# The Fire Nation invades Narutoverse



## Commander Shepard (Oct 10, 2007)

The Fire Nation, after completing the conquest of the Earth Kingdom, discovers the a new continent- the land of the Narutoverse.  And they want to conquer it.  What villages can the Fire Nation overrun, and which resist them?  Or does the Fire Nation not gain a sqare inch of land?

Ok, to even things out a bit when attacking villages, there are no heroes.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Oct 10, 2007)

*with numbers*, the fire nation could potentially take on *current * leaf village.


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## Vance (Oct 10, 2007)

_The Narutoverse would probably lose 1 village, but no more tha that._


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## Chocochip (Oct 10, 2007)

They get raped. There are too many high level ninjas that could literally take thousands and thousands of benders. Gammabunta can spit oil to where they screw themselves over with fire bending, Hell swamp to block entrances, hot air balloons would be screwed by shikamaru's clan as well as it basically makes them invincible, and once the main generals are killed in the fire nation, chaos and anarchy in the fire nation will destroy itself.


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## Tash (Oct 10, 2007)

They get outnumbered by the whole Naruto verse.


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## Dark Ascendant (Oct 10, 2007)

Akatsuki release their pokemon on the invaders for a price, advance their agenda.


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## Chocochip (Oct 10, 2007)

Naruto verse has too many mass killing jutsus anyways. Jutsus that kill thousands at a time such as the Lake jutsu, Hell swamp, and Boss summons.Top that off with the fact a chunnin or genin is faster and stronger than Jet who owns a normal bender, than Narutoverse wins.


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## Purgatory (Oct 10, 2007)

Chocolate Rain

Some stay dry while others feel the *PAIN*


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## Tash (Oct 10, 2007)

thegoodjae said:


> Naruto verse has too many mass killing jutsus anyways. Jutsus that kill thousands at a time such as the Lake jutsu, Hell swamp, and Boss summons.Top that off with the fact a chunnin or genin is faster and stronger than *Jet who owns a normal bender*, than Narutoverse wins.



Are you reffering to Zuko who was not using bending at the time, or Aang who was on Jets home field?


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## Chocochip (Oct 10, 2007)

Talking of him owning fodder benders when his team ambushed a bender camp.


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## Tash (Oct 10, 2007)

Since when are fodder a good way to rate the protagonist of a series?


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## Chocochip (Oct 10, 2007)

Jet is the protagonist? I swear it is Aang.


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## Tash (Oct 10, 2007)

Your saying Jet beating fodder benders means Aang is weak, so I ask how does Jet beating fodder benders equal Aang being weak?


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## master bruce (Oct 10, 2007)

they get rapestomped by konoha.

wow they can throw fire and bend it alittle.

konoha has nin who are superfast, some even faster than the latter, are superstrong(inhuman some), are superagile, can have pre-cog, sasuke killed a thousand fodder nin, who would own fire nation, kakashi has 1000 + jutsu hell a mist and he'd easily slaughter many of the firenation's best warriors, the huuyga's have kaiten so fire attacks are directed back at their user if desired, if they get in to physical attack a huuyga they get slaughtered, tsunade would dominate hundreds of them by herself(having inhuman speed, agility, class 100+ strength, and medical jutsu knowledge), azuma sensei would kill hundreds single handedly, gai is a beast, lee, is a beast(too fast and powerful plus can go gated and kill a few thousand singlehandedly), naruto summons buntda who blasts and steps/and death kicks hundreds of them,shikumaru can strategize and paralyze and strangle several at a time,sakura is a beast after tsunade training(see her on youtube), jaraiya, other fodder chunin and jonin, and other main genin who would all take down several fold firenation wimps singlehandedly, then there is always bushins,genjutsu to make them kill themselves or walk off fricking cliff, and if past hokage are allowed its really a slaughterfest.

hell even weakling like ino is 3 times faster than average avaterverse warrior and she has soul rape jutsu....and she's a narutovers weakling.

konoha in *ultra-rapestomp.*


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## Raiden (Oct 10, 2007)

*I honestly don't know, it would be one heck of a fight. However, I think that the Narutoverse would eventually win. They can't take on everybody...just think. The best advantage that they would have is that it requires less for them to use techniques than it does for ninja to use jutsu.*


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## vagnard (Oct 10, 2007)

Fire Nation get stomped. Jiraiya alone could take down all of them. Tanks?...Swamp of the Underworld. Numbers? Gamabunta.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Oct 10, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Fire Nation get stomped. Jiraiya alone could take down all of them. Tanks?...Swamp of the Underworld. Numbers? Gamabunta.



Sozin's Comet >>>>>>bunta


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## chequemaite (Oct 10, 2007)

Everybody agrees that Fire Nation is no match for Konoha. What other villages (or organizations) do you think can solo the Fire Nation? Sand Village? Village hidden in the Mist? Akatsuki?


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Oct 10, 2007)

chequemaite said:


> Everybody agrees that Fire Nation is no match for Konoha. What other villages (or organizations) do you think can solo the Fire Nation? Sand Village? Village hidden in the Mist? Akatsuki?



sasori and kakuzu should due.


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## vagnard (Oct 10, 2007)

manuelli123 said:


> Sozin's Comet >>>>>>bunta



What has to do Sozin's comet with this thread?. 

First it wasn't stated Fire Nation were powered by the comet in this thread. 

You don't even know how much powerful is a fire bender with the power of the comet. 

Considering a regular bender right now is like trash between Jiraiya's fingers I wouldn't put much faith in them. 

Sasuke alone can take down 1000 ninjas without receiving a scratch....an any average ninja is faster and stronger than a bender.


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## Kiyoshi (Oct 10, 2007)

Numbers, tanks....  Fire Nation alone would do well enough against Konoha.  Konoha has a few tank level ninja, but many many fodder.  Raitons useless against skilled fire benders.  Katons are even more useless than normal.  

Maybe if Earth Nation backed them up, but against everyone I doubt they could do it unless they got some ninja allies.  Even with pure numbers of fire benders the Narutoverse tanks win this.  Fire Bending is purely offensive with power.  They'd need water or earth benders to help with offense and healing to counteract the myriad jutsus they'd face.


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## Chocochip (Oct 10, 2007)

Hope you know those tanks are useless an easy can be broken into. They don't SHOOT.


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## Dark Serge (Oct 10, 2007)

go to the library and read genesis's thread called "[Analysis] The shinobi populace of Konoha".. 
Game over..


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## Chocochip (Oct 10, 2007)

Tanks can't even shoot, they can be infiltrated, and Konohas Prime has these three beast.


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## EdwardElric (Oct 10, 2007)

We haven't seen enough of other villages to decide how much they can impact the battle, but Konoha by itself should already do quite a number on the Fire Nation.  What we have seen of other villages, however, are their missing nin, people who can easily solo hundreds of average firebenders and take out higher level firebenders no problem as well.  Gaara can crush hundreds at a time with sand, Deidara can blow up hundreds at a time, Sasori can cut up hundreds of guys at a time, etc. etc.  Fire Nation's tanks won't even be a problem either.


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## master bruce (Oct 11, 2007)

tsunade jaraiya oro yondaime sandaime=gameover.

everybody else just makes it more of a stomp.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 11, 2007)

chequemaite said:


> Everybody agrees that Fire Nation is no match for Konoha. What other villages (or organizations) do you think can solo the Fire Nation? Sand Village? Village hidden in the Mist? Akatsuki?



rain village before pein crushed it. it was stated( or heavily implied) that the rain village was 2nd strongest to konoha at the time. Hanzou singlehandedly defeated the sannin at (or very close to) their prime.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 12, 2007)

Ok, to even things out a bit when attacking villages, there are no heroes.  Just fodder benders and ninja.  

Also, that previous condition aside, since the Fire Nation would eventually be stopped, what would their presence in the Narutoverse amount to?  Would they be able to occupy a considerable portion of the land, or would they be expelled completely? Or something in between?

Edit:


thegoodjae said:


> Hope you know those tanks are useless an easy can be broken into. They don't SHOOT.



Well, what makes you so sure?  Tanks have never been broken into.  And they have grappling hook launchers, so they do shoot something.


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## Vicious (Oct 12, 2007)

Pein solos


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## Gunners (Oct 12, 2007)

Pein completes his jutsu and nukes them out.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 13, 2007)

I already banned heroes...


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## gatorboi (Oct 16, 2007)

As much as i love Avatar, it would be the Narutoverse. Kisame and Gamabunta by themselves. Kisame could dorwn the fire benders with his Water Release: Exploding Water Shockwave. Gamabunta could spray the firebenders with oil and if they use firebending they're toast.


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## Hio (Oct 16, 2007)

The Fire Nations has no chance


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## Wuzzman (Oct 16, 2007)

the tanks do shoot...and they hit hard...geez fire nation numbers in the millions. You must be smoking and on crack to think that they won't own Konoha. The summons have chakra limits they can barely stay in a fight for more then 2 minutes.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 16, 2007)

Does this include Dead people and is this everyone at prime?
If it does:

*Gaara pre-extraction solo's
Deidara Solo's
Sasori Solo's
Jiraiya Solo's
Orochimaru Solo's
Itachi Solo's
Tsunade's gay summon Solo's
Hell of alot more nins Solo.*

If it doesn't:
_*Remove Sasori, Deidara & Possibly Gaara from the list*_
*The rest still Solo's.*

In othewords, this is rape beyond anything any of us could possibly imagine.


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## Wuzzman (Oct 16, 2007)

narutoforum has reached a new level of stupidty. million of technically advance soldiers vs a bunch of ninja's who run out of chakra in 10 minutes.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 16, 2007)

Soldiers who can "create & manipulate" fire vs an entire verse of super humans who's fighting capabilities far surpass that of even the Avatar?

Strenght Naruto >>>>> Avatar
Speed Naruto >>>>> Avatar
Numbers Naruto >>>>> Avatar
Techniques Naruto >>>>> Avatar

A new level of stupidity indeed.


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## Wuzzman (Oct 16, 2007)

again. Fire benders have 10x the stamina and 10x the numbers, narutoverse ninja's can't spam none of that shit for more then 10 minutes.The only thing that really rapes is Gaara and Naruto. Now let me think. 1,000+ tanks, other tech, and vastly larger numbers...yeah you really, really, really must be a complete fanboy. Even NINJA'S recognize that they are not siege engines.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 16, 2007)

1000 Tanks?
Kisame Floods the entire area.

Boats?

Mass Summons. You know? Giant Snakes? Giant Slugs? Giant Salamanders? Giant Frogs?

Naruto verse wins EFFORTLESSLY.

Also your claim of benders having more stamina is ridiculous.
Naruto people only get exhausted when they use ridiculous techniques wich aren't really needed in this matchup.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 16, 2007)

For the last time, I have _banned heroes_.  Is anyone listening?


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## Mangekyo_ (Oct 16, 2007)

Dark Ascendant said:


> Akatsuki release their pokemon on the invaders for a price, advance their agenda.



Well, that seals it.


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## vagnard (Oct 16, 2007)

Wuzzman said:


> again. Fire benders have 10x the stamina and 10x the numbers, narutoverse ninja's can't spam none of that shit for more then 10 minutes.The only thing that really rapes is Gaara and Naruto. Now let me think. 1,000+ tanks, other tech, and vastly larger numbers...yeah you really, really, really must be a complete fanboy. Even NINJA'S recognize that they are not siege engines.



Lol....more stamina. Aang and his friends took several days to cross countries in their world and they use Apa.

Genin Konoha 5 crossed a whole country in 2 days running while they were having deadly fights at the same time.

Post-Sasuke was capable to take down 1000 ninjas without even receiving a scratch. 

Jiraiya can summon any amount of giant frogs without any aparent stress. 

Avatar fights spent less stamina because they are shorter and their moves have 1/10000000000000000 the power of Narutoverse moves.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 16, 2007)

And still, no one listens...


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## Ippy (Oct 16, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Ok, to even things out a bit when attacking villages, *there are no heroes.*  Just fodder benders and ninja.


Just pointing it out.

Now I see where Bullet was coming from...


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## Azure Flame Fright (Oct 16, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Post-Sasuke was capable to take down 1000 ninjas without even receiving a scratch.



Considering no heros are allowed and the current villians are insanely limited and sasuke is more of an anti-hero, your argument saying that 1,000 ninjas lose is not helping state the fodder ninja's chances


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## Shinkirou (Oct 16, 2007)

The Akatsuki aren't heroes. Nuff said.


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## master bruce (Oct 16, 2007)

the firenation will get stomped.


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## vagnard (Oct 16, 2007)

AJpinecrest2 said:


> Considering no heros are allowed and the current villians are insanely limited and sasuke is more of an anti-hero, your argument saying that 1,000 ninjas lose is not helping state the fodder ninja's chances



The 1000 ninjas were taking down by a guy who can take down the whole fire nation alone. So I don't know who it helps to the fodder benders.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 16, 2007)

By "heroes" I mean pretty much any named character...


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## Shinkirou (Oct 16, 2007)

There's no telling really. The abilities of the ninja in Naruto differ so much its nearly impossible to tell. Though you do have the kage to deal with, as well as the rest of the 7 swordsmen of the mist.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 16, 2007)

There are tons of nameless Jounin walking around.
Heroes or not, Avatar = doomed


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## master bruce (Oct 17, 2007)

deidara and hidan should do.

deidara flies around and blows them up(grunts/tanks/and all), while hidans kills the rest.


yondaime could solo with thundergod jutsu and a kunai in his hand.

cs1/2 sasuke could solo he did kill 1000 fodder nin.

*1fodder chunin=20 firenation's best.*
even haku and zabuza could probably solo.



don't even need to kill them all just kill a few hundred ruthlessly and the rest will retreat.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 17, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> For the last time, I have _banned heroes_.  Is anyone listening?



no because heroes technically would not include the bad guys. not many people here play RPG's and strategy games where hero's are in singles and are far more powerful than regular soldiers. fodder wise, naruto takes this HARDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD. 2 thousand fodder ninjas sasuke defeated >>>> fodder airbenders.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

Obvious a lot of you have no concept of what an army is...


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## Shoddragon (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Obvious a lot of you have no concept of what an army is...



not flaming but, that is quite a dumb post. the fire nation's "army" consist of very weak tanks that shoot grappling hooks and some fire benders vs thousands upon thousands of ninjas who move far faster, are far stronger, far stealthier, have the home advantage ( since you said fire nation INVADES narutoverse). simply by this post you just did its easy to say your biased with avatar fanboyism. if you know its a stomp against them do not make it.

its sorta cheesy to make a match JUST to make your favorite nation/verse win. they lose. none named ninjas includes like 9/10 of konoha. none named ninjas also includes: first kazekage, 2nd kazekage, 3rd kaze kage. rain village. sunagakure. mizugakure. the hidden mist village ( forgot japanese name). also if you do not include heros that means none of the named characters in fire nation in avatar are allowed either. in which case its fodder benders and soldiers vs super human ninjas. in which case its an unholy mega murderstomp.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

"Some firebenders"? "Weak tanks"?  Just by saying these you prove you have no concept of an army.  This is a professional army, with hundreds of thousands of soldiers, a huge navy, and thousands of tanks.  Whereas the Narutoverse has no known standing army, only a few mercenary forces.

If it was reality, then the Fire Nation would take advantage of the village's mercenary nature, buying the support of some villages to help them establish territory.  This is a war, not a huge arena battle.  There is no "unholy mega murderstomp" possible because the Narutoverse can't unite its forces like that and take out the Fire Nation all at once.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> "Some firebenders"? "Weak tanks"?  Just by saying these you prove you have no concept of an army.  This is a professional army, with hundreds of thousands of soldiers, a huge navy, and thousands of tanks.  Whereas the Narutoverse has no known standing army, only a few mercenary forces.
> 
> If it was reality, then the Fire Nation would take advantage of the village's mercenary nature, buying the support of some villages to help them establish territory.  This is a war, not a huge arena battle.  There is no "unholy mega murderstomp" possible because the Narutoverse can't unite its forces like that and take out the Fire Nation all at once.




mercenaries LOL? those mercenaries can take on thousands of these soldiers with ease. hell jiraiya could take them all on with gamabunta and his huge fire attack used on manda. and yes those are WEAK tanks. orochimaru can summon more giant snakes. tsunade can flash herself or soemthing ( distraction maybe?). naruto wins this.

if a professional sniper goes up against dio brando do you think he will get him? especialyl when dio is really fast? thats what fire nation is up against. an enemy much faster, strong, and more powerful in virtually every conceivable way.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

In a real setting, the Fire Nation would set up some colonies on the shore, dominating countries like the Land of Waves.  Since the villages aren't territorially oriented, the Fire Nation would expand, forging alliances with ninja villages to secure their support if the Fire Nation went to war against another.  The Fire Nation would acknowledge that it can't seize the ninja villages, especially stronger ones like Konoha.  But they would overrun the nations the villages are in, and come to dominance over most of the Narutoverse.

Of course the Fire Nation would get sent back to its home with a sore ass if they just came barging in declaring their intentions of conquest.  But they're not that stupid.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> In a real setting, the Fire Nation would set up some colonies on the shore, dominating countries like the Land of Waves.  Since the villages aren't territorially oriented, the Fire Nation would expand, forging alliances with ninja villages to secure their support if the Fire Nation went to war against another.  The Fire Nation would acknowledge that it can't seize the ninja villages, especially stronger ones like Konoha.  But they would overrun the nations the villages are in, and come to dominance over most of the Narutoverse.
> 
> Of course the Fire Nation would get sent back to its home with a sore ass if they just came barging in declaring their intentions of conquest.  But they're not that stupid.



their not that stupid oO? LOL. are we talking about the same fire nation? well I am not sure I thoguht fire nation was technically brutes and attack other nations forcefully. watever. and LOl @ capturing other villages. they would still have a lot of them killed while doing that. you realize land of waves = water right? o wait water>>> fire. did you read what you posted?>


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

Actually, the Fire Nation used the same strategy of setting up bases and colonies on Earth Kingdom shores before declaring open war.

Unless things have changed since the Zabuza arc, the Land of Waves is a weak country that would be easily dominated by the Fire Nation.  And, if Water>>> Fire, how did the Fire Nation cripple the Southern Water Tribe, and almost conquer the Northern Water Tribe?  The Fire Nation has an extensive navy for troop movements and amphibious assaults.



vagnard said:


> The 1000 ninjas were taking down by a guy who can take down the whole fire nation alone. So I don't know who it helps to the fodder benders.



I just noticed this... and you really are insane.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Actually, the Fire Nation used the same strategy of setting up bases and colonies on Earth Kingdom shores before declaring open war.
> 
> Unless things have changed since the Zabuza arc, the Land of Waves is a weak country that would be easily dominated by the Fire Nation.  And, if Water>>> Fire, how did the Fire Nation cripple the Southern Water Tribe, and almost conquer the Northern Water Tribe?  The Fire Nation has an extensive navy for troop movements and amphibious assaults.



northern water tribe? LOL. land of dropplets >>>> northern watever. show me scans of them using water against fire nation. because its fact that each ninja village have their element ( sound village has the sound machines, konoha has its leave, sunagakure is surrounded by a desert and has gaara, I think the mist village had kisame AND zabuza). shit, kisame EASILY takes this. 100% can flood the area.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

How can I provide scans of something that doesn't have a manga?  I would provide screenshots of the massive Fire Nation fleet, but the hosting website seems to be down currently.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> How can I provide scans of something that doesn't have a manga?  I would provide screenshots of the massive Fire Nation fleet, but the hosting website seems to be down currently.



can someone OTHER THAN YOU post? I tihnk its because its clear enough narutoverse stomps.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

Nah, they either aren't online or don't have interest.

You still haven't shown a way the Narutoverse would outsmart my proposed strategy for the war.

*hatey edit: no flaming*


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## Shoddragon (Oct 18, 2007)

people like neji. who can see them coming from almost a mile away. all the hyuugan clan. gaara. hidden ninjas ( duh). shit, if I am allowed to control narutoverse, I would have deidara henge into a commanding officer then use #18 .


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

Taking down a whole nation/army is different than slaughtering thousands of ninja.

@ Shoddragon: But the Narutoverse won't exactly know what the Fire Nation is up to when they first land.  Even if some people get the drift of what's happening, they'll be too embroiled in their own agenda to care.  Why would the western nations/villages care if the eastern coastal nations were invaded?


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## vagnard (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Taking down a whole nation/army is different than slaughtering thousands of ninja.



It's not different considering than any average ninja can rape any bender just with speed.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

True, I'll admit that average ninja>>>average bender.  But 100,000 benders>>>1,000 ninja.


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## Chocochip (Oct 18, 2007)

Yeah, not really. Considering all the benders have is one move which requires the usage of hands, ninjas can go around just slicing one hand. The benders have yet to show reaction time to go against ninjas. I'll get all the scans in a sec.


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## vagnard (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> True, I'll admit that average ninja>>>average bender.  But 100,000 benders>>>1,000 ninja.



Show me the proof there are 100.000 benders in Fire Nation. Don't be a tard. Even Mai and Ty Lee who are part of the elite of Fire Nation aren't benders.

Look Ba sing se....at best they had 500 earth benders (being generous)...most of the people were just regular humans.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

I have yet to hear how the Narutoverse would react to the invasion to their benefit...

This isn't ninja vs. bender.  This is Fire Nation invades Narutoverse.  A war.  Not an arena battle.

Edit: The rally outside Zhao's fortress... the fleet that attacked the Northern Water Tribe... the occupation forces of Omashu and Ba-Sing-Se... the rally at Zuko and Azula's return... need I go on?


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## vagnard (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> I have yet to hear how the Narutoverse would react to the invasion to their benefit...
> 
> This isn't ninja vs. bender.  This is Fire Nation invades Narutoverse.  A war.  Not an arena battle.



Narutoverse doesn't need to react at all when only one guy is enough to took down the whole Fire Nation alone. 

Hinata's father took down around 20 sound ninjas with just one move.  Kakashi and Gai alone took down many sound ninjas just with a  kunai. Any average jounin can take down multiple benders without effort. It's stupid to put even Konoha or Narutoverse against Fire Nation



Bender Ninja said:


> I have yet to hear how the Narutoverse would react to the invasion to their benefit...
> 
> This isn't ninja vs. bender.  This is Fire Nation invades Narutoverse.  A war.  Not an arena battle.
> 
> Edit: The rally outside Zhao's fortress... the fleet that attacked the Northern Water Tribe... the occupation forces of Omashu and Ba-Sing-Se... the rally at Zuko and Azula's return... need I go on?



Show me the proof all of them were benders.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

I have none... but that's not the point.  The point is the numbers.

And you still haven't contradicted the Fire Nation strategy.

Stop pulling the Sasuke takes the whole fire nation argument out of your ass.



thegoodjae said:


> Yeah, not really. Considering all the benders have is one move which requires the usage of hands, ninjas can go around just slicing one hand. The benders have yet to show reaction time to go against ninjas. I'll get all the scans in a sec.



One move?  Do you know what "Northern Shaolin Kung Fu" is?


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## Chocochip (Oct 18, 2007)

Karin 
Karin 
Karin 
Karin 


Karin 
Karin 
Karin 



As you see, the average ninja is not only better than the average bender, but is better than Aang in speed and reaction time and rapes any non named bender and almost all benders so easily.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

ANBU and Kakashi are far above average ninja.  Or, at least, supposed to be.


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## vagnard (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> I have none... but that's not the point.  The point is the numbers.
> 
> And you still haven't contradicted the Fire Nation strategy.
> 
> Stop pulling the Sasuke takes the whole fire nation argument out of your ass.



If they aren't benders they mean shit in this battle. It's like using your friends or a bunch of drunks as opponents. Regular humans won't make difference in this battle when benders are hardly more than crap in ninja's ass.


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## Chocochip (Oct 18, 2007)

Not really. ANBU is around chunnin level. ANBU squad leaders are different. The Sound Nins were just normal nins moving super fast. That still doesn't change the fact that fodders are faster than anyone in Avatarverse.


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## vagnard (Oct 18, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> ANBU and Kakashi are far above average ninja.  Or, at least, supposed to be.



Anbu are fodder in Narutoverse. Kabuto took down 6 of them at the same time without effort.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 18, 2007)

Still no contradiction to the Fire Nation's strategy.

And still no concept of what a professional army is.


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## Chocochip (Oct 18, 2007)

What Strategy, the crap of invade with slow balloons and non shooting tanks that got charged in by Aang easily?

Yes, great strategy, are you joking me? They win just because of pure numbers. If one of their generals get killed, they get screwed over and have no idea what they are doing. Around five anbus can just bushin into a fire nation soldier and go up to the generals and kill them. They can go hide, bushin again and kill all the main leaders until anarchy kills the Fire Nation itself, if you know what anarchy means anyways.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 18, 2007)

The fire nation are screwed period.

Fodder ninja can basically do anything that is not a signature move.
Basic Genjutsu converts Tanks to allies.
Bunshin evens out the numbers.
Fodder ninja with Fodder summons >>>> Tanks

Seriously, the fire nation is beyond screwed.
Numbers won't make up for their lack of power.


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## C-Moon (Oct 18, 2007)

Wuzzman said:


> again*. Fire benders have 10x the stamina and 10x the numbers*, narutoverse ninja's can't spam none of that shit for more then 10 minutes.The only thing that really rapes is Gaara and Naruto. Now let me think. 1,000+ tanks, other tech, and vastly larger numbers...yeah you really, really, really must be a complete fanboy. Even NINJA'S recognize that they are not siege engines.



There is NO way to figure that out. Yes, the Fire Nation has tanks, but the Naruverse has summons. GIANT SUMMONS. And if the Fire Nation invades the Narutoverse after Pein has his bijuu, then good-bye. Not all the soldiers are benders, anyway. Most of the soldiers that attacked Aang's old Air Temple were fodder.


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## Dark Ascendant (Oct 18, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Anbu are fodder in Narutoverse. Kabuto took down 6 of them at the same time without effort.



Kabuto was also at Kakashi level at that time.


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## Chocochip (Oct 19, 2007)

Tanks are useless without guns.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

Must I repeat my self?



> In a real setting, the Fire Nation would set up some colonies on the shore, dominating countries like the Land of Waves. Since the villages aren't territorially oriented, the Fire Nation would expand, forging alliances with ninja villages to secure their support if the Fire Nation went to war against another. The Fire Nation would acknowledge that it can't seize the ninja villages, especially stronger ones like Konoha. But they would overrun the nations the villages are in, and come to dominance over most of the Narutoverse.
> 
> Of course the Fire Nation would get sent back to its home with a sore ass if they just came barging in declaring their intentions of conquest. But they're not that stupid.
> 
> The Narutoverse won't exactly know what the Fire Nation is up to when they first land. Even if some people get the drift of what's happening, they'll be too embroiled in their own agenda to care. Why would the western nations/villages care if the eastern coastal nations were invaded?



Still no contradiction to this.


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## vagnard (Oct 19, 2007)

Dark Ascendant said:


> Kabuto was also at Kakashi level at that time.



Yeah....but named ninjas can take down a great amount of fodder in Naruto. Asuma took down 9 chunnins effortless only with taijutsu. Kakashi and Gai took down countless sound ninja. Hiashi defeated nearly 20 ninjas with only one move. Even a fresh Sasuke from the academy was doing well against Demon Brothers and they were chunnins. I'd say Chunnin Exam Sasuke could take down these 2 easily at the same time.



Nihonjin said:


> The fire nation are screwed period.
> 
> Fodder ninja can basically do anything that is not a signature move.
> Basic Genjutsu converts Tanks to allies.
> ...



And the tanks of Avatarverse pretty much suck. They can't even shoot. They need a bender inside shooting that crappy fire that hardly can burn the ground.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

Still no contradiction.  Can _anyone_ come up with a way that the Narutoverse would naturally react that would result in anything other than the Fire Nation dominating the eastern lands?

Just some examples of Fire Nation military power:

*Spoiler*: __ 










"Crappy fire that can hardly burn the ground"?  You mean fire that can reach as high as the Northern Air Temple.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Screenshots from Avatarspirit.net.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 19, 2007)

you realize there are really no oceans in naruto right? in fact, I have seen in both manga and anime like once or twice. the navy would have nowhere to go. ninjas operate more by land then by sea, also there really is not much of a sea. you think they would survive in naruto oceans? go watch the naruto fillers ( something like episodes 135-216). there is a fucking sea boss. gamabunta can water walk. katsuya can water walk. anyone above genin level thats NOT rock lee can water walk. fire reaching a temple in the air or such is not useful if it is weak >_<. also to that strategy.

1. you made it up.
2. the fire nation would not react like that in a world they do not know if they were smart, tigers and such would pick off soldiers in forests. elephants would destroy them .
3. the fire nation had a pretty nice idea of the layout of those tribes, they have NO IDEA of the layout of the narutoverse or even a small temple >_<.

without knowledge of their surroundings, they would starve because they woudl eat poisonous insects and such. animals would pick them off. they would fall into sand pits and mudpits and such. the weather could affect them greatly. some area require water walking to actually cross ( valley of the end). narutoverse still wins.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

Shoddragon said:


> you realize there are really no oceans in naruto right? in fact, I have seen in both manga and anime like once or twice. the navy would have nowhere to go. ninjas operate more by land then by sea, also there really is not much of a sea. you think they would survive in naruto oceans? go watch the naruto fillers ( something like episodes 135-216). there is a fucking sea boss. gamabunta can water walk. katsuya can water walk. anyone above genin level thats NOT rock lee can water walk. fire reaching a temple in the air or such is not useful if it is weak >_<. also to that strategy.
> 
> 1. you made it up.
> 2. the fire nation would not react like that in a world they do not know if they were smart, tigers and such would pick off soldiers in forests. elephants would destroy them .
> ...



1.  No I didn't, the Fire Nation used the same strategy before declaring open war on the Earth Kingdom.

2.  lol wut?  They would A. Bring supplies with them B.  After that, either buy from or raid farms C.  And this isn't a rag-tag little force- this is a huge army.  Nature won't take them down.  If they can survive the weirdness that is Avatarverse animals, they can survive whatever is in Narutoverse.

3.  Solved by the slowly-settling-before-attacking strategy, and by employing native mercenary ninja.

They are attacking _from the east coast_, so of course the navy is important.


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## Chocochip (Oct 19, 2007)

HOpe you know wave country can rape the Fire Nation too. They can't just set up colonies. Are you that dumb? If they are going against the whole nation, word will be brought out to the konoha making it wave and konoha vs. fire, when wave is already good enough. Haishi and other jounins took  countless ninjas, which each of those ninjas showing feats to go against countless benders. Top that off with the fact that Fire Nation depends TOTALLY on their generals, and once one is killed they go into chaos and don't know what to do and freak out, they will die. Armies are heck of alot easier to disrupt.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

Wave country?  You mean the country that was dominated by a corporate goon?

Yes, set up colonies in unsettled areas along the coast.  Why would Konoha care about that, at first?

Once generals hire ninja bodyguards they won't be so easy to take out.


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## Chocochip (Oct 19, 2007)

No, Wave countries, the country that still has ninjas that would kill the fire nation.

Yes, actually, if you never knew of real war, once a general was killed, all soldiers attempt poor retreat, try to surrender, or anarchy kills themselves. 

Why would Konoha care? Isn't it obvious, they are allies with almost all countries. Top taht off with the fact they can send in ONE anbu henged into a fire bender, then go in and kill Lord Ozai or something, as well as kill all the others by henging, than this is cakesauce for Konoha.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

The Fire Lord's back home.  And you still haven't said how mercenary ninja would be overcome.

Konoha doesn't deal with territorial disputes unless they're directly attacked.


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## Chocochip (Oct 19, 2007)

Unless they are warned too.

If they get attacked, the Fire Nation is screwed. No way can they penetrate the defense. I already said this. generals=dead due to henging. Fire Nation is dead.


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## master bruce (Oct 19, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Wuzzman





> again. Fire benders have 10x the stamina and 10x the numbers, narutoverse ninja's can't spam none of that shit for more then 10 minutes.The only thing that really rapes is Gaara and Naruto. Now let me think. 1,000+ tanks, other tech, and vastly larger numbers...yeah you really, really, really must be a complete fanboy. Even NINJA'S recognize that they are not siege engines.








10x the numbers and 10 x the stamina doen's mean crap when you only have 1/10th the speed needed to keep up(and thats just to keep up with fodder nin, lee and gai/kakashi are way faster so you'd need even more speed to keep up, speed that AV doesn't have.) and 1/10th the power(and thats just fodder ninjutsu/genjutu, if main nin are involved you'd need way more power, power AV doesn't even come close to having.)



a slow@ss moving little AV tank isn't even close to a real tank and the siege machines would easily be attackable by even fodder nin with fodder speed and fodder jutsu.




Plus the numbers don't mean crap when you are an AV firenation bender and see half your whole army/fellow countrymen slaughtered by these guys in ninja suits who seem near unstoppable and you can't even hit them with your firebending/can't hit them with your machines weaponry because they move so fast its scary, and they seem so powerful you feel like wetting your pants.

even most decent fodder nin move faster than you can blink and have killing skills that put the best navy seals to shame, plus, their jutsu are usually still powerful enough to be unchallenged except by main nin.

remember when naruto woke up and then suddenly you saw a nin come out of nowhere with his arm cocked back about to kill naruto.
remember how quick it all happened? Remember when you see footage of nin running and everything around them is a blur, then they zip across the screen and all you see is lines? thats fodder nin speed.
firenation is screwed plain and simple, man.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

In a huge battle arena?  Yes, they would be.  Tactically, in an invasion?  No, they wouldn't be.


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## Chocochip (Oct 19, 2007)

Tactical? Your plan is not tactical. Orochimaru's attack was Tactical. It FAILED.


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## piccun? (Oct 19, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> In a huge battle arena?  Yes, they would be.  Tactically, in an invasion?  No, they wouldn't be.



Tactical? YOu know the best tactic in war for a small but fast army to defeat a bigger but slower army? attack and retreat, attack and retreat. Attack the flanks, then fall back. Again and again.
 This hasbeen used successfully in the real world. 
However, ninja's speed is incredibly greater than that of normal humans.  And even a genin can easily kill dozens of skilled  fighters. 
 And it's in their territory. The fire nation army would fall into many ambushes and traps.
  With only this strategy, a small ninja village, with no more than a few hundreds ninja(assuming none of them is a A/S rank shinobi - people like Gaara and Deidara could wie out the entire army alone) would slaughter thousands of Fire nation soldiers. 
 Worst, ninja can easily infiltrate the enemy camp, killing their commanders, which would cause chaos it the enemy ranks. 
  Come night the attacks will continue, their supplies would be destroied, as well as their nerves. 
 The second day,  even tough the great part of their army would be still alive, they would be in complete despair, witouth commanders, food , sleep, and attacked to every side, even from inside their ranks, by enemy they can barely see and that kill dozens of them at once. 
 After a few days the lack of sleep and food will do the job for the ninja, in a week nothing will be left of their army, and the ninja would at worst have lost a pair of  weak genins. 

 Of course that's if the ninja don't simply sink all of their fleet in the open sea.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

You act like ninja are nonstop machines.

And yet no one has said how the Fire Nation's strategy would be dealt with by the Narutoverse.  You forget that armies are adaptable.  And no one has come up with reasons that mercenary ninja wouldn't flock to the Fire Nation.


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## Ippy (Oct 19, 2007)

Bender Ninja and vagnard... please make good use of the "edit" button, instead of constantly double posting.

The only times I allow double posts are when someone is reserving posts for a respect thread.


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## piccun? (Oct 19, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> You act like ninja are nonstop machines.
> 
> And yet no one has said how the Fire Nation's strategy would be dealt with by the Narutoverse.  You forget that armies are adaptable.  And no one has come up with reasons that mercenary ninja wouldn't flock to the Fire Nation.



I told you how they could deal with the fire nation's strategy.  The first day they kill their commanders so they can't change strategy. And an army of 100.000 is far less adaptable than an army of 1000.
 NInja can use soldier pills, that allows them to fight for 3 days without need for rest, and they could use shifts, while some attack others rest. 
 They wouldn't flock to the fire nation because it'd be stupid seeing how weak they are compared to ninja armies.

 Now, believe whatever you wish.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

The first day most of the Narutoverse wouldn't even know that the Fire Nation had landed forces.  Read the my past posts before arguing something I've already dealt with (and already reposted once).

Ninjas work for money, right?  The Fire Nation has a huge economy to draw from, right?  Ninjas, especially missing-nin, get paid to work for the Fire Nation.  Simple as that.  The Fire Nation could probably buy the allegiance of an entire village.


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## Wesker (Oct 19, 2007)

They are fighting the entire verse meaning EVERYONE unless you think they would backstab the village. Which would be a bad decision considering they are ninjas and would not have too much trouble killing the fire nation leaders in retaliation.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 19, 2007)

This isn't an arena fight.  This is a war.  Not everyone is going to automatically be against the Fire Nation.  If they're smart, they would use the villages to their advantage to gain dominance over various lands.


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## Dark Ascendant (Oct 19, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> This isn't an arena fight.  This is a war.  Not everyone is going to automatically be against the Fire Nation.  If they're smart, they would use the villages to their advantage to gain dominance over various lands.



Lol, arena fights are the only thing people in OBD understand.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 20, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> This isn't an arena fight.  This is a war.  Not everyone is going to automatically be against the Fire Nation.  If they're smart, they would use the villages to their advantage to gain dominance over various lands.



re read naruto or never come back with a naruto thread..... EVER. in theory, this COULD work.... if ninjas were like that. a ninja has not been shown or evne been intrigued to betray his village for money, money is not even that important to them. this is not star wars KOTOR, where the mandalorians will go with the side offering the most money. The reason ninjas have betrayed their villages was for power, God-complexes ( pain). thats about it. its mostly power that ninjas betray their villages. that or they are outcasted.

therefore bender your "the fire nation's" strategy would not work since they would not be able to persuade anyone.


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## Dark Ascendant (Oct 20, 2007)

Shoddragon said:


> re read naruto or never come back with a naruto thread..... EVER. in theory, this COULD work.... if ninjas were like that. a ninja has not been shown or evne been intrigued to betray his village for money, money is not even that important to them. this is not star wars KOTOR, where the mandalorians will go with the side offering the most money. The reason ninjas have betrayed their villages was for power, God-complexes ( pain). thats about it. its mostly power that ninjas betray their villages. that or they are outcasted.
> 
> therefore bender your "the fire nation's" strategy would not work since they would not be able to persuade anyone.



Zabuza disagrees with you.


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## reddogs52 (Oct 20, 2007)

*?*

I think that pein sollos the fire nation with all his freaking a summons lol


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## Nihonjin (Oct 20, 2007)

Dark Ascendant said:


> Zabuza disagrees with you.



He didn't do it for money.
He simply needed money for what he wanted to do.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 20, 2007)

If ninja don't work for money, how do they make a living?

They are assassins for _hire_.


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## Ippy (Oct 20, 2007)

Yeah, I don't understand how anyone could argue that Narutoverse ninja aren't motivated by money.

The fact that they have ANBU squads just to hunt down their _own_ ninja who betrayed them should be indication enough.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 20, 2007)

Yes, ninja would easily work for the Fire Nation for enough money as long as their homes villages weren't attacked.  Even then, a good amount of ninja would either be from other villages or willing to betray their home village for enough money.


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## Chocochip (Oct 20, 2007)

Orochimaru's plan was way better than anything Fire Nation could work with as well as he was more dangerous. He failed. I loled at you thinking that Fire Nation could even breach the walls.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 20, 2007)

Konoha's far from the east coast, IIRC.

They aren't just attacking Konoha.  Besides, did I ever say they could breach the walls?

Orochimaru didn't have _hundreds of thousands_ of soldiers.  And it was a very brief "war".  The Fire Nation would stick to it.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 20, 2007)

Bender, its not about quantity, its about quality.
Oro's army was 1000x worse than anything the Fire Nation could ever hope to be.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 20, 2007)

1000x _worse_? I'm going to assume that's a type-o.
When has a ninja village ever performed large-scale military operations against anything other than a fellow ninja village?  Never.  Unless they're attacked, they won't care about territorial disputes.  Hell, they'll work _for_ the Fire Nation.


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## KLoWn (Oct 20, 2007)

The fodder nins will just summon some of those three-headed snakes Sand used against Konoha during the invasion and be home in time for tea and cookies.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 20, 2007)

Whatever.  Still no concept of an army, for the majority of you.


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## Nihonjin (Oct 20, 2007)

Ofcourse not, only if we say "Fire Nation wins z0mg"


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## Shoddragon (Oct 21, 2007)

Haterade said:


> Yeah, I don't understand how anyone could argue that Narutoverse ninja aren't motivated by money.
> 
> *The fact that they have ANBU squads just to hunt down their own ninja who betrayed them should be indication enough.*



how did you become a moderator ? >_<. ANBU squads are mostly jounin who help protect the village. ANBU members that hunt down their own members are members that betrayed the village. what does this have to do with money. haterade. please please please, take a day off and just sleep. not sleeping enoguh is affecting your ability to comprehend.


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## Shoddragon (Oct 21, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> *When has a ninja village ever performed large-scale military operations against anything other than a fellow ninja village? *



ninja wars. when sunagakure was attacked by deidara. right after orochimaru killed sarutobi ANBU black ops were stationed around konoha in large masses ( but not so much that they are visible).

even currently, its considered a large military scale since the stage is being set up for a huge war ( if pein kills jiraiya and such)


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 21, 2007)

Those were nowhere near the scale of what the Fire Nation does.  And it was still between ninja, not for territory.

Whoa, shoddragon, did you just do what I think you did?  It's ok to argue with Haterade, but to criticize him personally for it... :amazed


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## Ippy (Oct 21, 2007)

Shoddragon said:


> ANBU squads are mostly jounin who help protect the village. ANBU members that hunt down their own members are members that betrayed the village. what does this have to do with money. haterade. please please please, take a day off and just sleep. not sleeping enoguh is affecting your ability to comprehend.


...

All ninja help protect the village when necessary, so I don't know why you brought that point up.  But ANBU squads' _main_ job is hunting down ninja that have betrayed their village. 

Why would _any_ ninja betray their village?  It would be for the same thing that any person has betrayed another for centuries....

*Money.*


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## HO-OH (Oct 21, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> In a real setting, the Fire Nation would set up some colonies on the shore, dominating countries like the Land of Waves.  Since the villages aren't territorially oriented, the Fire Nation would expand, forging alliances with ninja villages to secure their support if the Fire Nation went to war against another.  The Fire Nation would acknowledge that it can't seize the ninja villages, especially stronger ones like Konoha.  But they would overrun the nations the villages are in, and come to dominance over most of the Narutoverse.
> 
> Of course the Fire Nation would get sent back to its home with a sore ass if they just came barging in declaring their intentions of conquest.  But they're not that stupid.



yes they would set up colonis but dont you think the villages would get suspicious and spy on the colonies bases and learn of their plans and after the kages learn about this they would attack the colonies and defeating the fire nation


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## Shoddragon (Oct 21, 2007)

bender. your fire nation's "strategy" involves the other villages basically doing absolutely nothing. Shit, it depends WHERE they invade the nartuoverse from, perhaps you woudl want to set up a location where they start from? it would help a bit.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 21, 2007)

The east coast.   And yes, the villages would do basically nothing unless they came directly under attack, especially the western villages.  When have they participated in territorial disputes?

The way I think it would happen is this:

The Fire Nation sends a few people to get the lay of the land, learning about ninja and such.  The Fire Nation then sends in rather aggressive colonists, setting up settlements and bases along the coast.  Then they land an army in the Land of Waves, conquering it.  They hire ninjas to protect their generals and admirals, and land a main invasion force on the coast.  They avoid villages, either at the advice of their hired ninja or from a bad experience were they were kicked out of a village.  Over the next few years many lands fall to the Fire Nation.  The villages remain independent, but several end up on the Fire Nation's payroll.


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## Gunners (Oct 21, 2007)

Narutoverse would easily win. If they wanted to they could start civil wars amongst the fire nation down to the henge jutsu.

It wouldn't be difficult for someone like Itachi to break in to the fire nation and kill their leader then impersonate him and destroy them that way. It's something the Narutoverse is capable of as they did it with the Kazekage to lead an attack on Konoha.

They could outrightly stomp them in power too.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 21, 2007)

The thing is- why would the ninja want to do that?  No ninja has shown desire for political power with anything not pertaining to the villages.  If the Fire Nation avoids the villages, they mind their own business.  As long as there's still a good amount of employment for ninja, they don't care who is in power with larger nations.

Not all of the Narutoverse would automatically be against the Fire Nation.  This is Fire Nation _invades_ Narutoverse, not Fire Nation versus Narutoverse or Fire Nation attacks ninja villages.

The problem would arise if the Fire Nation tried to regulate and control ninja themselves.  If so, then the Ninja would rise up and tear the Fire Nation leadership to shreds, decimate bases, massacre armies, etc.  But it doesn't have to come to that.

Narutoverse nations have no known armies that could oppose the Fire Nation.


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## Gunners (Oct 21, 2007)

Urgh this is a vs thread. If they are at war Konoha would likely attack them. That's like saying ''Why would spiderman attack Sasuke they aren't enemies''.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 21, 2007)

Uh, I'm the OP, I think I decide what the situation is in this thread.


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## Wesker (Oct 21, 2007)

So your basically making it to where you are giving every advantage you can think of to the fire nation?


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## Lord Snow (Oct 22, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Uh, I'm the OP, I think I decide what the situation is in this thread.



It doesn`t matter because the  minute the Fire Nation starts taking over small villages, they will most likely pay ninja villages to send ninjas to defend them.

Also Ninjas who are apart of a major village have financial security and thus will most likely not betray their ninja villages just so they can receive a few bucks from the Fire nation and then worry about how they will make money later. Plus many of the ninjas that betrayed their villages didn`t do it for financial reasons. Thus only a small minority of ninjas could be bought off and they would ask for a high price, which the Fire Nation might not be able to afford.


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## piccun? (Oct 22, 2007)

@gent9 said:


> It doesn`t matter because the  minute the Fire Nation starts taking over small villages, they will most likely pay ninja villages to send ninjas to defend them.
> 
> Also Ninjas who are apart of a major village have financial security and thus will most likely not betray their ninja villages just so they can receive a few bucks from the Fire nation and then worry about how they will make money later. Plus many of the ninjas that betrayed their villages didn`t do it for financial reasons. Thus only a small minority of ninjas could be bought off and they would ask for a high price, which the Fire Nation might not be able to afford.



Plus, if they have the time to hire some ninja before getting attacked (As I explained in a previous post they'd be wiped out in a week), oncethey realize how weak and slow those people are, they'dd probably steal all their mney and run away.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 22, 2007)

Keeper of Seven Keys said:


> So your basically making it to where you are giving every advantage you can think of to the fire nation?



No, I'm making it as real as possible.  This is Fire Nation invades Narutoverse, not Fire Nation vs. All Ninja, as you're trying to make it.

Finally, someone came up with a good argument.  @gent9, that's a good point.  But you have to think- who would have a bigger treasury, a few small villages, or the whole Fire Nation?  And they wouldn't be betraying their ninja village- the Fire Nation would most likely avoid them (or buy them).  It really depends on the personal inclinations of each individual ninja, which we can't speak for.  My view is that enough ninja will work to protect the generals, and not enough ninja will work to bring down the whole army.

And piccun, they couldn't steal money if it's on the other side of the ocean.


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## Sylar (Oct 22, 2007)

Combustion Man >>> Narutoverse.


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## HO-OH (Oct 22, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> And piccun, they couldn't steal money if it's on the other side of the ocean.



yeah an ocean that ninjas can walk on or use a summon to get across it


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## piccun? (Oct 22, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Finally, someone came up with a good argument.  @gent9, that's a good point.  But you have to think- who would have a bigger treasury, a few small villages, or the whole Fire Nation?  And they wouldn't be betraying their ninja village- the Fire Nation would most likely avoid them (or buy them).  It really depends on the personal inclinations of each individual ninja, which we can't speak for.  My view is that enough ninja will work to protect the generals, and not enough ninja will work to bring down the whole army.
> 
> And piccun, *they couldn't steal money if it's on the other side of the ocean*.



You are not making any sense, how could they pay their mercenary ninja if their money is on the other side of the ocean?

 BTW, you are basing your whole strategy on the fact that once the Fine Nation arrives there, they can make up the strongest ninja army of all, and during that time no one would try to stop them. 
 That's impossible and stupid.
 If they get into a populated territory they'd get attacked, and as in the scenario I illustrated, wiped out in around one week.
 If they don't get in a inhabited place, they won't find any ninja to hire.
 And anyway, it's not like they can gather an army of hundreds of ninja in a few weeks, they'll need time, and must travel. And that can't happen, because as soon as they get discovered, they get killed in a week.


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## vagnard (Oct 22, 2007)

Lol....when this fight went from "Fire Nation vs Narutoverse" to "I'll bribe ninjas so they fight instead benders" lol. Why didn't the fight between ninjas from the beginning?.  

Benders doesn't have a chance against a ninja. That's the whole point of the thread.


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## master bruce (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm gonna make this real plain and simple.




*Narutoverse Ultrastomps.*


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 22, 2007)

piccun said:


> You are not making any sense, how could they pay their mercenary ninja if their money is on the other side of the ocean?
> 
> BTW, you are basing your whole strategy on the fact that once the Fine Nation arrives there, they can make up the strongest ninja army of all, and during that time no one would try to stop them.
> That's impossible and stupid.
> ...



Straw man.  I never said the Fire Nation could assemble a ninja army.  My point was that they would hire enough ninja to protect their generals, and not enough ninja would work to take down the Fire Nation army.

The main treasury is back in the Fire Nation itself, duh.  The money would be brough over.  Stealing from the the Fire Nation cuts off the main source of money.  And dehaloking, when has a ninja crossed the OCEAN?  That's just ridiculous.

Let me make one thing clear, vagnard:  It _never_ was Fire Nation versus Narutoverse.  Just look at the thread title...  to clarify, it's not Fire Nation versus Narutoverse: Who Wins?; it's Fire Nation invades Narutoverse:  What Happens?

Answer this:  Without ninja, would the lands of the Narutoverse be able to stop the Fire Nation?

Now answer this:  When have the Ninja ever gotten involved in non-ninja political and territorial disputes?

Well, there was the Zabuza arc, where Team 7 helped Tazuna and Zabuza helped Gato.  Oh wait, they were _hired_ to do that.


----------



## HO-OH (Oct 22, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> And dehaloking, when has a ninja crossed the OCEAN?  That's just ridiculous.



just because a ninja was never shown to cross the ocean dosent mean they cant and ridiculous for christ sake the manga has a kid who can make clones of himself,summon giant toads and has a demon fox with nine tails sealed inside him yeah tats not ridiculous


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 22, 2007)

Those are completely unrelated feats.  If there is a related feat on the scale of crossing the ocean, then it wouldn't be ridiculous.


----------



## Sengoku (Oct 22, 2007)

akatsuki + other ninjas would pose a serious threat


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 22, 2007)

Yes they would.  Thing is, as long as the Fire Nation stayed out of ninja business, why would they care?


----------



## Wesker (Oct 22, 2007)

Because the fire nation will eventually try and fight the akatsuki. It is the entire verse remember.


----------



## Jackal (Oct 22, 2007)

none, the naruto-verse would use summons to just massacare them, along with the mist county, they would just murder them :/


----------



## KLoWn (Oct 22, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Those are completely unrelated feats.  If there is a related feat on the scale of crossing the ocean, then it wouldn't be ridiculous.


You do know they have boats right?


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## HO-OH (Oct 22, 2007)

KLoWn said:


> You do know they have boats right?



and to add to that even if the ninja boats arent as advanced as the fire nation boats they could probably defend themselve with some water or fire jutus


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## Ippy (Oct 22, 2007)

@gent9 said:


> It doesn`t matter because the  minute the Fire Nation starts taking over small villages, they will most likely pay ninja villages to send ninjas to defend them.
> 
> Also Ninjas who are apart of a major village have financial security and thus will most likely not betray their ninja villages just so they can receive a few bucks from the Fire nation and then worry about how they will make money later. Plus many of the ninjas that betrayed their villages didn`t do it for financial reasons. Thus only a small minority of ninjas could be bought off and they would ask for a high price, which the Fire Nation might not be able to afford.


They mostly do it for power, yes, but power in itself is merely a means, not and end.

What is the most common ends for the pursuit of power? 

Money.



vagnard said:


> Lol....when this fight went from "Fire Nation vs Narutoverse" to "I'll bribe ninjas so they fight instead benders" lol. Why didn't the fight between ninjas from the beginning?.


Because it's "Fire Nation *invades* Narutoverse"... not "Fire Nation *vs.* Narutoverse"...



vagnard said:


> Benders doesn't have a chance against a ninja. That's the whole point of the thread.


Tell that to Combustion Man.


----------



## HO-OH (Oct 22, 2007)

Haterade said:


> Tell that to Combustion Man.



too bad he said no heros or anyone named btw i f****** love your sig


----------



## Ippy (Oct 22, 2007)

dehaloking said:


> too bad he said no heros or anyone named btw i f****** love your sig


Ah, touche.


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## Chocochip (Oct 22, 2007)

Didn't I already proved who wins with scans. You need to show some videos of a great invasion. I told you already, Oro's invasion was alot better and it failed.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 23, 2007)

Keeper of Seven Keys said:


> Because the fire nation will eventually try and fight the akatsuki. It is the entire verse remember.



*sigh*  If you guys haven't gotten the concept of a WAR through your heads yet, where loyalties and enemies are ambiguous, it's pointless for me to try to communicate to you anymore.  Hate, please close the thread, I'm tired of this.


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## KLoWn (Oct 23, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> *sigh*  If you guys haven't gotten the concept of a WAR through your heads yet, where loyalties and enemies are ambiguous, it's pointless for me to try to communicate to you anymore.  Hate, please close the thread, I'm tired of this.


You give up, Naruto prevails yay


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 23, 2007)

No, I don't give up.  I conclude that most your minds can't conceive of anything other than a simple arena battle.  It's just pointless to argue anymore when all we are doing is repeating ourselves.


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## Sōsuke Aizen (Oct 23, 2007)

pein solo's.


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## Lord Snow (Oct 23, 2007)

I understand what you are trying to say but the problem is this:

Eventually the Fire Nation will try to invade one of the bigger countries like the Land of Wind or Fire and that will result in the Leaders of those countries sending ninjas to attack the fire nation. If you remember Hidden leaf ninjas are basically the army of the Land of Fire so if Fire country is invaded the hidden leaf ninjas will have to respond. Also since they are in an alliance with the sand ninjas, the fire nation runs the risk of being attacked by both the land of Wind and Fire if they attack either of them. This is the same thing that will occur if the attack any country with their own hidden villages.
Another thing is if the Leaders of these countries sees that the Fire Nation soldiers are invading smaller villages they will most likely suspect that the Fire Nation would do the same to them...so in a way war between the ninja villages and the Fire Nation would be inevitable. 

As for how the ninjas would fear... 

If you remember back in season 1 when Admiral Zhao was attacking the Northern Water Tribe, Hahn(Yue`s fianc?e) was able to get close Admiral Zhao and attack him and all he did was  just wear a Fire Nation uniform. Even the youngest genin knows how to use henge no jutsu (never mind the Yamanaka clan`s jutsus) and ninjas are trained in stealth, if that situation is any  indication of how the secure the Fire Nation generals are then they will most likely get picked off and impersonated by the ninjas.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 23, 2007)

Once again, @gent9 seems to be on the same brainwave frequency as me.  Can't argue now, but will be back later.

EDIT:  If Haterade sees the request for closure, ignore it now, please.  I finally have someone who understands my argument enough to actually argue with.  Still don't have time to argue currently.


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## HO-OH (Oct 23, 2007)

Haterade said:


> Ah, touche.



thx you 

and good point @gent9 if one normal warrior was able to board a fire nation ship imagine 5 ninjas a ship


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 23, 2007)

Alright now...



@gent9 said:


> I understand what you are trying to say but the problem is this:



THANK YOU for understanding.  Few people in this thread understand where I am coming from, or are unwilling to argue that way.



> Eventually the Fire Nation will try to invade one of the bigger countries like the Land of Wind or Fire and that will result in the Leaders of those countries sending ninjas to attack the fire nation. If you remember Hidden leaf ninjas are basically the army of the Land of Fire so if Fire country is invaded the hidden leaf ninjas will have to respond.



Ah, so the Leaf Village is directly related to the Land of Fire.  I didn't fully understand the relationship, but yes, all of Konoha fighting against the Fire Nation would be a problem.  So let's just say the Land of Fire resists conquest(ironic that they have similar names).



> Also since they are in an alliance with the sand ninjas, the fire nation runs the risk of being attacked by both the land of Wind and Fire if they attack either of them.



True.  



> This is the same thing that will occur if the attack any country with their own hidden villages.



Only that the other ninja villages are not nearly as strong as Konoha, and the Fire Nation can make an alliance with another ninja village to aid them.



> Another thing is if the Leaders of these countries sees that the Fire Nation soldiers are invading smaller villages they will most likely suspect that the Fire Nation would do the same to them...so in a way war between the ninja villages and the Fire Nation would be inevitable.



Not Konoha, because it's far from the east coast.  Ninja would probably be hired to defend the villages, but not whole ninja villages.  Even if the villages take action, it probably wouldn't be until it is to late for them to match the Fire Nation.



> As for how the ninjas would f[are]...
> 
> If you remember back in season 1 when Admiral Zhao was attacking the Northern Water Tribe, Hahn(Yue`s fiancée) was able to get close Admiral Zhao and attack him and all he did was  just wear a Fire Nation uniform. Even the youngest genin knows how to use henge no jutsu (never mind the Yamanaka clan`s jutsus) and ninjas are trained in stealth, if that situation is any  indication of how the secure the Fire Nation generals are then they will most likely get picked off and impersonated by the ninjas.



Well- would ninja ever actually be stupid enough to try that?  That plan failed horribly.  Even if Hahn had succeeded, he would have died instantly.  And that was without ninja security & advisers.  It's not that hard to just walk up to someone and try to murder then.  But to quietly, secretly assassinate someone, it's a lot harder.  And more effective, if done right.


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## HO-OH (Oct 23, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Well- would ninja ever actually be stupid enough to try that?  That plan failed horribly.  Even if Hahn had succeeded, he would have died instantly.  And that was without ninja security & advisers.  It's not that hard to just walk up to someone and try to murder then.  But to quietly, secretly assassinate someone, it's a lot harder.  And more effective, if done right.



well actualy they would the ninja they would probably send someone and the asssalint would easily know whos been hired by the fire nation and as to what you said about that being harder these ninjas have been trained from birth to assasinate people and fight and konoha would probably send a specalist in assasination to do the job


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, if assassinations of any faction that appears on the map was common, we'd have a lot of anarchy in the Narutoverse, wouldn't we?


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## vagnard (Oct 23, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Let me make one thing clear, vagnard:  It _never_ was Fire Nation versus Narutoverse.  Just look at the thread title...  to clarify, it's not Fire Nation versus Narutoverse: Who Wins?; it's Fire Nation invades Narutoverse:  What Happens?
> 
> Answer this:  Without ninja, would the lands of the Narutoverse be able to stop the Fire Nation?
> 
> ...



Ninjas are hired to make money to survive. But they depend on the countries.  Konoha works directly under the Fire Country...they even created a special guard for the Damyo where Asuma and the monks where part. Ninja's villages are the army of the country that allow them to stay. They never are hired as a whole village. They hire specific ninjas for specific tasks. 

If Fire Nation start an attack it will involve ninjas inevitably. I mean that was your purpose in first place, no?. Because farmers vs benders doesn't have much point at all.



Haterade said:


> Because it's "Fire Nation *invades* Narutoverse"... not "Fire Nation *vs.* Narutoverse"...



So basically it's ninjas vs benders. It's a very good assumption. Because farmers vs benders wouldn't make sense in first place. If Fire Nation wants to invade the whole Narutoverse it will involve ninjas. Ninjas villages work under the jurisdiction of the countries. And if an external power start to menace the security of all countries they will see as a common enemy they have to destroy. 



Haterade said:


> Tell that to Combustion Man.



Fire that doesn't make more damage than a katon?


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## HO-OH (Oct 23, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Well, if assassinations of any faction that appears on the map was common, we'd have a lot of anarchy in the Narutoverse, wouldn't we?



whats your point


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 23, 2007)

vagnard said:


> So basically it's ninjas vs benders. It's a very good assumption. Because farmers vs benders wouldn't make sense in first place. If Fire Nation wants to invade the whole Narutoverse it will involve ninjas. Ninjas villages work under the jurisdiction of the countries. And if an external power start to menace the security of all countries they will see as a common enemy they have to destroy.
> 
> If Fire Nation start an attack it will involve ninjas inevitably. I mean that was your purpose in first place, no?. Because farmers vs benders doesn't have much point at all



Uh, no.  Ninjas vs. Benders would be an arena fight.  Yes, the Fire Nation is invading, but it wouldn't declare war on every single .  First of all, it can't attack them all at first, because they're not all on the east coast.  Second of all, to do such a thing would be suicide.  It would be like Israel only invading Syria but declaring war on every single Arab nation.

Second, not all ninja would help each other.  There are the apathetic and unscrupuluous ninja who would work for the Fire Nation for money against other village's ninja, some even against their own village.  Also, not every village has as close an alliance as Konoha and the Sand village (can't remember its name)

I do agree that farmers vs. benders has little point to it.  But you're trying to make all ninja automatically against the Fire Nation from the start, which they wouldn't be.



> Fire that doesn't make more damage than a katon?



I assume from this that you haven't watched "The Beach".  If you have, you really are overrating the Narutoverse katons in this case.  And I'm not saying that flame-ishly.



vagnard said:


> Ninjas are hired to make money to survive. But they depend on the countries.  Konoha works directly under the Fire Country...they even created a special guard for the Damyo where Asuma and the monks where part. Ninja's villages are the army of the country that allow them to stay. They never are hired as a whole village. They hire specific ninjas for specific tasks.



Finally you're catching my drift, like @gent9 did.  I already conceded that the Land of Fire would be able to resist invasion with all of Konoha behind it.  But that protection doesn't extend to the rest of the Narutoverse, and the other ninja villages aren't as strong as Konoha.


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## vagnard (Oct 23, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Uh, no.  Ninjas vs. Benders would be an arena fight.  Yes, the Fire Nation is invading, but it wouldn't declare war on every single .  First of all, it can't attack them all at first, because they're not all on the east coast.  Second of all, to do such a thing would be suicide.  It would be like Israel only invading Syria but declaring war on every single Arab nation.



Lol. How you know how Fire Nation would act. In Avatar they declared the war to the entire world and they were fighting against the  northern water tribe and the earth kingdom at the same time. You talked about an invasion. You never said Fire Nation could make alliances. And in the case they want to bribe other nations. How do you know they would help them?. How do you know they could offer what ninjas need?. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Second, not all ninja would help each other.  There are the apathetic and unscrupuluous ninja who would work for the Fire Nation for money against other village's ninja, some even against their own village.  Also, not every village has as close an alliance as Konoha and the Sand village (can't remember its name)



Lol. It's clear you hardly know about Naruto. Ninjas doesn't take any mission. They only take mission if the paid is on the level of the work. Ninja wars took many lives and Countries doesn't start wars just like that. There haven't been never in a mission about attacking a whole country. The wars doesn't start just because a guy paid them. They start wars to conquest land...and if they haven't do that again...why they would do just because the Fire Nation ask them?....to help another nation to conquer something they want? lol

First you assume that Fire Nation could make a offer interesting enough for an other village dare to attack Konoha. Even Sound and Suna together couldn't even make a big damage to Konoha and they were supported by Oro. Why do you think other villages didn't join to the treason?. Because it's very simple....villages doesn't start making for shitty reasons like money. Much less when they could destroying each other. 



Bender Ninja said:


> I do agree that farmers vs. benders has little point to it.  But you're trying to make all ninja automatically against the Fire Nation from the start, which they wouldn't be.



You said it was an invasion against the whole Narutoverse. That doesn't sound like friendly allies. It's more obvious villages will ally between them against a common unknown enemy that with ninjas from other villages they know. 



Bender Ninja said:


> I assume from this that you haven't watched "The Beach".  If you have, you really are overrating the Narutoverse katons in this case.  And I'm not saying that flame-ishly.



This is a regular beam of Combustion Man. It didn't even destroyed the ground. 



This is a C-rank Katon (a chunnin level technique that even some genins can do)




Destroying rock just like that beam. And took a part of a forest. 

This was the most powerful explosion of Combustion Man. Take in acount we only see the range. We didn't even see any crater to say it was really powerful. In fact....given the form it was more like a huge cloud of heat than actual cocusive force. 



And then this is a powerful katon from Kakuzu. Zukkoku





Nothing really different at all. 

And none was killed there. 

In avatarverse nobody has been severely hurted by fire except a reclutant Zuko when *he was a child fighting against his father who is probably one of the most powerful fire benders ever. *

Even Katara's injures by Aang's fire bending were very superficial. So I don't see how a technique that haven't kill anyone could kill ninjas when even Aang's group could react and counter them easily. 




Bender Ninja said:


> Finally you're catching my drift, like @gent9 did.  I already conceded that the Land of Fire would be able to resist invasion with all of Konoha behind it.  But that protection doesn't extend to the rest of the Narutoverse, and the other ninja villages aren't as strong as Konoha.



Any village is stronger than Fire Nation. Even Rain Village who isn't one of the great nations had ninjas like Pein, Hanzou and Konan that could solo Fire Nation by themselves easily. 

Mist Village has the seven swordman of the mist plus they have powerful clans like Haku's clan or Kimmimaro's clan. (According to Haku there were many people with those abilities...that's why the hunts where very common  in the past). Hell...look at their children....they can produce guys like Haku, Kimmimaro, Suigetsu, etc...

Sand Village can't be invaded in the desert by Fire Nation only with Gaara as Kazekage who could take this fight by his own easily. 

Cloud Village was threat enough to make Konoha think twice before starting a war against them. 

Rock Village already had a long fight with Konoha. So they aren't incredible weak. They have ninjas that can became invisible (like the ones we saw on Kakashi's Gaiden). 

For all we know....all the 5 main villages have jounins and a kage. That's enough to take down Fire Nation easily. 

A powerful genin is more than any bender can deal in Avatarverse. Here we are talking about villages many jounins and full of chunnins. 

Lol....look Sound 4 for an instance. They were Oro's elite, they had CS2....and even the four together barely won against 2 special jounins who are weaker than regular jounins. And Sound 4 had a guy who could lift hundred of tons with just one hand, a guy who could level a forest with an arrow, a guy who could summon invincible barriers and fuse with any guy and a girl who can fuck you only hearing the melody of her flute.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Oct 23, 2007)

Alright, I finally decided to participate in this thread.
However, the thread has garnished many more posts since I looked. 
@Bender Ninja What are the main things you're arguing ? Quick summary maybe- edit- I'm sorry, but I am too lazy to read through the whole thread and I don't remember your main points anymore.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 24, 2007)

vagnard said:


> Lol. How you know how Fire Nation would act. In Avatar they declared the war to the entire world and they were fighting against the  northern water tribe and the earth kingdom at the same time. You talked about an invasion. You never said Fire Nation could make alliances. And in the case they want to bribe other nations. How do you know they would help them?. How do you know they could offer what ninjas need?.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bijuu231 (Oct 24, 2007)

all that is need to defeat the army is kisame..a single tsunami and its over


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## vagnard (Oct 24, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Straw man.  I already conceded that Konoha and the Land of Fire wouldn't fall.  A few points:



I was talking about the Fire Nation from Avatarverse. You stated they wouldn't declare to war to the entire Narutoverse when that was exactly what they do in Avatarverse....they were fighting against Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom at the same time instead making allies. 



Bender Ninja said:


> A.  Every man has his price, some lower than others.



You are assuming Fire Nation knows the price and they can afford it. Ninjas make missions for money. They make wars for land. They won't be working to help a foreign nation that pretends to conquer the whole world. 



Bender Ninja said:


> B.  The villages can easily be manipulated against each other (Look what Orochimaru did with the Sand village)



Lol. That's was because Sand Nation interest. They wanted to conquer Konoha for themselves and bring power to the village. They weren't working under Oro. They were working along Oro because they recognized his power. When a ninja village see what Fire Nation is doing they will realize the avatarcharacters are weak as hell compared to them they will just take all they can offer by force. 



Bender Ninja said:


> C.  If the Fire Nation doesn't attack all at once, it wouldn't fight a common enemy.



That's what they did in avatarverse. The pattern is on my favor. And a ninja village don't will take orders from a weak country to conquer other villages. They will just need to destroy the Fire Country and take whatever they could offer. 



Bender Ninja said:


> D.  And the Fire Nation wouldn't attack all at once, unless they're stupid.  I already showed the colonization strategy.



They already used that strategy in Avatar. They are too weak to conquer a single country. They have no chance. They aren't worthy allies for any village  and anything they could offer could be taken by force by the village they attemp to temp. 




Bender Ninja said:


> Are you saying that the C-rank move is more powerful than the Combustion Man's blast?  Doesn't look like it.  And I don't see much difference in the supposedly stronger katon.  Sure, the strongest katons can outdo the Combustion Man, but you just said Katon.  Also, keep in mind that it looks like he can easily spam them.  Just a few other things he did with the blasts...



I didn't said a C-rank Katon was more powerful...I'd say it do around the same level of damage....even more if you consider the blasts of Combustion Man didn't destroy the ground at all. If a katon doesn't make shit to ninjas then that blasts won't make it better. 

Katon is the generic name for fire techniques in Narutoverse. Saying katon are equal or stronger than fire bending from Avatarverse is a correct aseveration. If Ninjas can escape or survive with no problems from a katon from Kakuzu I don't see any problems to surviving fire bending that never hurt severely someone of avatarverse. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Pierced through a reverse avalanche by Toph and still hit near the gAang,  and completely vaporizing Katara's waterbending attack.



You still don't show an example of direct damage. Katons in Narutoverse has vaporized water and destroyed rock too...but they do shit against ninjas. 



Bender Ninja said:


> When a Katon completely pwns other elemental attacks like that, let me know.





This was a katon mixed with wind to increase the area effect. It pwned Kakashi's suiton. 



Bender Ninja said:


> "Powerful genin"?  That [should] be a bit of an oxymoron.



No. Just because they are the weakest ninjas in Narutoverse it doesn't mean there aren't differences between them. Lol....Are you saying a bender could defeat Rock Lee, Naruto or Sasuke?. 



Bender Ninja said:


> As far as I know, wasn't Rain Village destroyed by Pein?  If the alliance between Leaf and Sand is in play, than Rain Village can't be.



Lol...read the manga. Rain village isn't destroyed by Pein. Rain village is COMMANDED by Pein. How could be destroyed if Jiraiya and Pein are fighting just now in Rain Village?. Pein won the civil war and became the sole leader of Rain Village. 



Bender Ninja said:


> A.  You have only called them strong, but haven't proved it.



Lol....Just denying the facts. Nice way to evade my points. You couldn't even answer to the fact that sound 4 (using Curse Seal 2) barely could win against tired fodder special jounins. And Sound 4 guys include a guy who can lift several tons, a girl who can hypnotize using the melody of her flute, a guy who can summon Orochimaru's strongest defense and can fuse with her opponents an a guy who can level a big part of a forest with an arrow that can't be stopped.  




Bender Ninja said:


> B.  Still no concept of an army.  You were starting to get it, but you seem to have lost it again.



Nice try...but you failed. You haven't make any relevant point in this debate.  You still haven't prove why villages would help Fire Nation, how Fire Nation could convince them or how Fire Nation could defeat a single Ninja Village. 

Do your homework. Bye.


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## master bruce (Oct 24, 2007)

thread still going on?

dude, nin win.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 24, 2007)

vagnard said:


> I was talking about the Fire Nation from Avatarverse. You stated they wouldn't declare to war to the entire Narutoverse when that was exactly what they do in Avatarverse....they were fighting against Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom at the same time instead making allies.
> 
> That's what they did in avatarverse. The pattern is on my favor. And a ninja village don't will take orders from a weak country to conquer other villages. They will just need to destroy the Fire Country and take whatever they could offer.



The Water Tribes and Air Nomads were near nonfactors.  The Fire Nation was able to obliterate the Air Nomads in a matter of days, maybe one day, and the Water Tribes are what- two settlements?  The Earth Kingdom was the main enemy.  Also, they had comet power behind them.  That argument isn't really valid unless comet power is in play- which it isn't.



> You are assuming Fire Nation knows the price and they can afford it. Ninjas make missions for money. They make wars for land. They won't be working to help a foreign nation that pretends to conquer the whole world.



The Fire Nation probably could afford the price- they're a whole empire.  And when have ninja gone to war for territory, not against other nin?



> Lol. That's was because Sand Nation interest. They wanted to conquer Konoha for themselves and bring power to the village. They weren't working under Oro. They were working along Oro because they recognized his power. When a ninja village see what Fire Nation is doing they will realize the avatarcharacters are weak as hell compared to them they will just take all they can offer by force.



Fire Nation? Weak? lol.  When a million-man army is weak, let me know.



> They already used that strategy in Avatar. They are too weak to conquer a single country. They have no chance. They aren't worthy allies for any village  and anything they could offer could be taken by force by the village they attemp to temp.



Yes... a single country the size of Asia.  With a capital protected by a wall bigger than the Great Wall of China.  Ba-Sing-Se was really the only thing stopping the Fire Nation from complete conquest.



> I didn't said a C-rank Katon was more powerful...I'd say it do around the same level of damage....even more if you consider the blasts of Combustion Man didn't destroy the ground at all. If a katon doesn't make shit to ninjas then that blasts won't make it better.
> 
> Katon is the generic name for fire techniques in Narutoverse. Saying katon are equal or stronger than fire bending from Avatarverse is a correct aseveration. If Ninjas can escape or survive with no problems from a katon from Kakuzu I don't see any problems to surviving fire bending that never hurt severely someone of avatarverse.
> 
> ...



Didn't destroy the ground? lol.



The blast had enough power to send the whole gAang flying, even when Aang tried to defend with airbending.  And it completely demolished rock pillars.

I'd like to have an example of direct damage to people for a Nick show targeted at 12 year old boys, but I don't.  You're asking for something that exists, but just can't be displayed.

And I wasn't comparing firebending to katons (while the most impressive firebending does come close).  The Combustion Man's blasts actually have no known connection to firebending.  And are way above firebending in raw power.

And about Kakashi's suiton... well met.



> No. Just because they are the weakest ninjas in Narutoverse it doesn't mean there aren't differences between them. Lol....Are you saying a bender could defeat Rock Lee, Naruto or Sasuke?.



It was a bit of a joke, actually.  I was just commenting on how it doesn't make sense that a bunch of teens are some of the biggest factors in the Narutoverse.  But that's just because it's a shounen series.  Anyway, _normal_ genin aren't supposed to be powerful at all.



> Lol...read the manga. Rain village isn't destroyed by Pein. Rain village is COMMANDED by Pein. How could be destroyed if Jiraiya and Pein are fighting just now in Rain Village?. Pein won the civil war and became the sole leader of Rain Village.



Oh, I saw someone post something here about Pein leveling the Rain village.  Bad source there, for me.



> Lol....Just denying the facts. Nice way to evade my points. You couldn't even answer to the fact that sound 4 (using Curse Seal 2) barely could win against tired fodder special jounins. And Sound 4 guys include a guy who can lift several tons, a girl who can hypnotize using the melody of her flute, a guy who can summon Orochimaru's strongest defense and can fuse with her opponents an a guy who can level a big part of a forest with an arrow that can't be stopped.



That could be more of an argument against the Sound 4's power than for the two jounin.



> Nice try...but you failed. You haven't make any relevant point in this debate.  You still haven't prove why villages would help Fire Nation, how Fire Nation could convince them or how Fire Nation could defeat a single Ninja Village.
> 
> Do your homework. Bye.



Do your homework on armies.  Until then, stop insulting my intelligence.  Please.


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## HO-OH (Oct 24, 2007)

hey bender ninja you said people who are named arent allowed dosent that mean cumbustion man cant be used


----------



## Commander Shepard (Oct 24, 2007)

Well I wasn't the one who brought it up... Haterade mentioned the Combustion Man first then vagnard underrated him just like he does any Avatarverse character.  I agree that it doesn't fit.


----------



## Ippy (Oct 24, 2007)

vagnard said:


> So basically it's ninjas vs benders. It's a very good assumption. Because farmers vs benders wouldn't make sense in first place. If Fire Nation wants to invade the whole Narutoverse it will involve ninjas. Ninjas villages work under the jurisdiction of the countries. And if an external power start to menace the security of all countries they will see as a common enemy they have to destroy.


"common enemy"?

If they only occupy the eastern coast, which are mostly unoccupied territories, they'll hardly be seen as a "common enemy" among the different countries.

And even if they do stir up shit with one of the countries, they'd start another Great Shinobi War at best. 

Do you honestly believe that they would all unite?



vagnard said:


> Fire that doesn't make more damage than a katon?


It isn't like a katon at all.

Katons are large balls of non-explosive fire, long streams of non-explosive fire, or non-canon bullets of non-explosive fire...

Whereas CM's attacks are mental attacks that form explosions capable of obliterating Toph's defenses, large rocks, small rocks, etc...  It's extremely fast, requires no seals, requires no charge up, and has shown no signs of causing fatigue on the user.

Anyway, CM can't be used, so this is all moot.


----------



## Kai (Oct 25, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:
			
		

> I was just commenting on how it doesn't make sense that a bunch of teens are some of the biggest factors in the Narutoverse. But that's just because it's a shounen series.


"A bunch of teens" isn't going to make Avatar any more superior. Clearly the 'gAang' as you put it is a bunch of teens. The most powerful group of fighters in the Fire Nation are teens. The moon goddess is a teen. The adults in the series don't appear to think more rationally than children with the exception of Uncle Iroh and his brief bursts of wisdom. 



			
				Bender Ninja said:
			
		

> Anyway, normal genin aren't supposed to be powerful at all.


Normal genin are swifter than the majority of the entire Avatarverse; you can see it as so in the bottom of this panel.
Henge would be a gigantic problem; firebenders as they've been presented by the studios that make the Avatar series are seemingly too lazy to illustrate them as any more than classic fodder.... and as a result we are handed instances such as dropout Katara with no training of her element freezing half of Zuko's crew in the very first episode.

Ninjas on regularity are trained to be nearly invisible,  unheard of, and leaving no tracks. The Fire Nation is just wading through a maze of embarrassment on these conditions; give it up Avatar supporters.

Edit:





			
				Bender Ninja said:
			
		

> With a capital protected by a wall bigger than the Great Wall of China


You are out of your mind.


----------



## Commander Shepard (Oct 25, 2007)

Oh... so that's the map... funny, I though I saw a map in the anime that looked very different, with the Land of Fire far from the east coast.  But now that I've seen that, the strategy needs some modification.

Wow... I thought it was shaped more like China.  That shape, with _lots_ of islands, makes it a lot easier for the strategy to work.  Unsettled areas, plenty of room for the Fire Navy to operate.  So here is the modified strategy:

Fire Nation ships arrive in the northeast islands, establishing colonies on the unclaimed islands.  This means they would probably come into contact with the Water Country and Lightning Country first.  Now, they may get suspicious enough to spy on the Fire Nation, but I doubt they would take action as long as the Fire Nation stays on populated islands.  When the Fire Nation starts to land on the east coast of the continent that would get the attention of the land of Fire, but again, no action likely.  Once the fire nation decides to start the campaign, it would probably make an alliance with one of the great shinobi countries, probably Lightning Country, Water Country, or Fire Country, since they're closest.  In fact, as OP, I'm going to dispense with any doubt and just say that the Lightning Country makes an alliance with the Fire Nation.  With that said, Mist Village probably falls, then the Fire Country falls under attack.  Sand Ninja will probably come to Konoha's aid, but the majority of other lands and ninja will stay back, as they are on the other side of the Fire Country.  Here, I'll let you decide for yourself what happens next.

Meanwhile the Fire Nation conquers the southern Land of Filler.

Oh, and Kiroi Senko, no, I'm not out of my mind. I need no more proof then the fact that the area the wall surrounds on the Avatar map seems to take up almost a quarter of the continent.


----------



## HO-OH (Oct 25, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> So here is the modified strategy:
> 
> Fire Nation ships arrive in the northeast islands, establishing colonies on the unclaimed islands.  This means they would probably come into contact with the Water Country and Lightning Country first.  Now, they may get suspicious enough to spy on the Fire Nation, but I doubt they would take action as long as the Fire Nation stays on populated islands.  When the Fire Nation starts to land on the east coast of the continent that would get the attention of the land of Fire, but again, no action likely.  Once the fire nation decides to start the campaign, it would probably make an alliance with one of the great shinobi countries, probably Lightning Country, Water Country, or Fire Country, since they're closest.  In fact, as OP, I'm going to dispense with any doubt and just say that the Lightning Country makes an alliance with the Fire Nation.  With that said, Mist Village probably falls, then the Fire Country falls under attack.  Sand Ninja will probably come to Konoha's aid, but the majority of other lands and ninja will stay back, as they are on the other side of the Fire Country.  Here, I'll let you decide for yourself what happens next.



if they do spy would'nt the fire nations plan make them worried about there plans of domination .

second your not giving mist enough credit since fire nation will send ships they will be very vunerable to mists suiton jutsus and lets not forget mist still has 5 shinobi swordsmen(raiga dosent count he's filler unless filler is aceptable).also there are still many bloodline clans and yes they are hated but in a time of war they would be accepted.


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## Fullmetal83 (Oct 25, 2007)

The mist village would rape the fire nation. There moves are based on water. The mist village is the most ruthless village in the Narutoverse. The mist is the second most porwerful village in all Naruto. Look at the ninjas they have shown.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 25, 2007)

If anyone can post prove that suitons can sink Fire Nation battleships and destroy armies, please do (not including Kisame's floods).


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## Devil King Sanji (Oct 25, 2007)

I say that the Narutoverse wins. There are no named characters. There are various unnamed Jounin, Kages, and even the Seven Swordsman of the Mist. Not to mention countless other unnamed clansmen.


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## vagnard (Oct 25, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> The Water Tribes and Air Nomads were near nonfactors.  The Fire Nation was able to obliterate the Air Nomads in a matter of days, maybe one day, and the Water Tribes are what- two settlements?  The Earth Kingdom was the main enemy.  Also, they had comet power behind them.  That argument isn't really valid unless comet power is in play- which it isn't.



They didn't have the comet power when they were attacking the Northern Water Tribe and the Earth Kingdom at the same time. 



Bender Ninja said:


> The Fire Nation probably could afford the price- they're a whole empire.  And when have ninja gone to war for territory, not against other nin?



The villages works under the countries who are very large too that are governed by feudal lords. And they don't need Fire Nation money to start a war. This has never been an issue. Wars at always about land. Money is a factor in particular missions. If the Ninja Village really want the money they just need to take by force from Fire Nation. That's a lot easier than attack another ninja village. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Fire Nation? Weak? lol.  When a million-man army is weak, let me know.



Compared to a ninja village full of superhumans?. Yes...they are very weak. Fire Nation isn't different from a regular Kingdom of Old China except they can manipulate fire and they have some sort of technology like tanks (that can't even shoot) 



Bender Ninja said:


> Yes... a single country the size of Asia.  With a capital protected by a wall bigger than the Great Wall of China.  Ba-Sing-Se was really the only thing stopping the Fire Nation from complete conquest.



Lol. Where do you get the Earth Kingdom is bigger than Asia?. Nice Speculation And the Great Wall of China or Ba-Sing Se would be a joke for ninjas who can walk for vertical superficies without problem. Earth Kingdom would be defeated in less than a day by any ninja village. Giant summons would make a short work of these walls and the people inside the city. Like I said before....2 fodder tired special jounins were capable to hold his own against sound 4 who are guys that can defeat any bender of avatarverse easily.



Bender Ninja said:


> Didn't destroy the ground? lol.



Where the ground was destroyed?. These are stones above the ground like the pillars.  



Bender Ninja said:


> The blast had enough power to send the whole gAang flying, even when Aang tried to defend with airbending.  And it completely demolished rock pillars.



It's just destroyed those tiny pillars...it didn't even melted them. I dont' see what is so impressive about them. They are exactly like regular katons. 



Bender Ninja said:


> I'd like to have an example of direct damage to people for a Nick show targeted at 12 year old boys, but I don't.  You're asking for something that exists, but just can't be displayed.



Sorry but that's a fact. If the show was created for 12 years old doesn't change the fact they can. It's like me saying katons can melt people in an instant....but Kishimoto can't show that in a manga aimed for kids (Naruto in Japan is aimed for 12 years old too) That doesn't change the fact Katons doesn't melt people. As simple as that.  



Bender Ninja said:


> And I wasn't comparing firebending to katons (while the most impressive firebending does come close).  The Combustion Man's blasts actually have no known connection to firebending.  And are way above firebending in raw power.



It's still firebending from what we know. It's just Combustion Man can generate it in other way (with his mind it seems) instead breathing and holding heat in his body. Firebending from Zukko still could cut minerals...so I don't see how that's really different. The only real difference is the massive area of damage effect...but I don't see how they are more powerful than a real powerful fire bender like Azula or Iroh.



Bender Ninja said:


> It was a bit of a joke, actually.  I was just commenting on how it doesn't make sense that a bunch of teens are some of the biggest factors in the Narutoverse.  But that's just because it's a shounen series.  Anyway, _normal_ genin aren't supposed to be powerful at all.



In fact....normal genins probably are as powerful or some could be even more powerful than some genins of rookie 9. Remember many of them failed for many factors different than strength (like the written test...or the fact they couldn't find a scroll in time). Ninjas like Hinata, Sakura or Ino only could pass the second exam only thanks to their teammates. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Oh, I saw someone post something here about Pein leveling the Rain village.  Bad source there, for me.



No.  In fact Pein is all about protecting his village. He is seen as a god by his followers. 



Bender Ninja said:


> That could be more of an argument against the Sound 4's power than for the two jounin.



The problem is after that we saw what really could Sound 4 do...so the argument is in favor of the 2 special jounins than against Sound 4....I mean really....Jiroubo can lift hundreds of tons, he has high level dotons and could kick the ass of 2 pills Chouji, Kidomaru could summon giant spiders, that could create hundred of mini spiders to attack the opponent, he was capable to create a shield capable to endure Jyuuken attacks and was able to shoot arrows capable to level a forest, Sakon could survive to a direct impact of Garouga (Kiba's final attack), could fuse with his opponent at molecular level at any time and he had high level taijutsu, Tayuya could summon 3 intangible demons that only could be controlled by Shikamaru's shadow and then she could mess his opponent's mind only using the melody of her flute. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Do your homework on armies.  Until then, stop insulting my intelligence.  Please.



Lol. Do you think Villages doesn't have armies?. They have military too. They fight wars and any each of them is superhuman unlike Fire Nation where no all of them are benders and any average bender is way below an average ninja. 

Read Naruto. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. I saw both shows until their last episodes/chapters and Fire Nation doesn't stand a chance in hell. 

Take a look of a standard fodder jounin of Rock Village for example in Kakashi Gaiden. Kakashi was already a jounin and one of them nearly killed him and Yodaime had to save him. These guys could make high level dotons or became invisible without problem. What the hell Fire Nation can do against that?.

What you don't realize is Benders only powers is elemental control while in the case of ninjas elemental jutsus are just a little fraction of all their powers. They are way faster, stronger, durable than regular humans. They can control  elements, some of them can summon, use many weapons with perfect accuracy (like Genin Sakura), they know seals, have kawamiri to cheat the opponent, they can use shunshin, etc.... Ninjas are too much versatile for a Bender to deal with them. And you are trying to put a Nation with some guys that can control fire against village full of jounins who are the highest rank for a ninja and with a kage (and these guys normally are normally capable to take down a whole country by themselves). Take for example Sasori who is a kage level ninja. He defeated a whole (non-ninja) country by himself. And he isn't even the strongest guy in Naruto. 13 years old Itachi defeated his whole clan without problem. Kage level opponents in Naruto are too broken. And any village has at last one of them. 

Now take in account jounins....each of them is so powerful that can defeat many chunnins without breaking a sweat (Asuma did against 9 sound ninjas). And at the end of part 1 all the rookie 9 were barely chunnin level. 

The difference between ninja ranks in Naruto is ridiculous. A standard jounin probably could deal nearly with the whole rookie 9 pre-timeskip. And most of guys of rookie 9 during Sasuke Rescue Arc were already way beyond any bender.


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## HO-OH (Oct 25, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> If anyone can post prove that suitons can sink Fire Nation battleships and destroy armies, please do (not including Kisame's floods).



first tell me why kisames floods cant be used its not a bloodline limit so other mist-nins could use it


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> They didn't have the comet power when they were attacking the Northern Water Tribe and the Earth Kingdom at the same time.



True.  But the Southern Water Tribe was devastated to the point that it could only field small fleets, and the Northern Tribe was one settlement that showed no active roll in fielding forces.



> The villages works under the countries who are very large too that are governed by feudal lords. And they don't need Fire Nation money to start a war. This has never been an issue. Wars at always about land. Money is a factor in particular missions. If the Ninja Village really want the money they just need to take by force from Fire Nation. That's a lot easier than attack another ninja village.



You're ignoring the fact that there are rogue and unscrupulous ninja who would work for the Fire Nation.  And no, they wouldn't just take it from the Fire Nation if it's guarded and on the other side of the ocean.  I also already allied the Lightning country/Cloud village with the Fire Nation.



> Compared to a ninja village full of superhumans?. Yes...they are very weak. Fire Nation isn't different from a regular Kingdom of Old China except they can manipulate fire and they have some sort of technology like tanks (that can't even shoot)



Last time I checked, countries are greater than villages.



> Lol. Where do you get the Earth Kingdom is bigger than Asia?. Nice Speculation And the Great Wall of China or Ba-Sing Se would be a joke for ninjas who can walk for vertical superficies without problem. Earth Kingdom would be defeated in less than a day by any ninja village. Giant summons would make a short work of these walls and the people inside the city. Like I said before....2 fodder tired special jounins were capable to hold his own against sound 4 who are guys that can defeat any bender of avatarverse easily.



On the Avatar Map, both the north pole and south pole are on it.  The Earth Kingdom continent stretches half that distance, and is even longer.  A single ninja village wouldn't be able to get across the continent in a day.  Ninja villages don't occupy whole countries.  But the Fire Nation is the one being evaluated, not the Earth Kingdom.



> Where the ground was destroyed?. These are stones above the ground like the pillars.
> 
> It's just destroyed those tiny pillars...it didn't even melted them. I dont' see what is so impressive about them. They are exactly like regular katons.
> 
> It's still firebending from what we know. It's just Combustion Man can generate it in other way (with his mind it seems) instead breathing and holding heat in his body. Firebending from Zukko still could cut minerals...so I don't see how that's really different. The only real difference is the massive area of damage effect...but I don't see how they are more powerful than a real powerful fire bender like Azula or Iroh.



Irrelevant to the debate.  Take it to the CM vs. Gaara thread.



> Sorry but that's a fact. If the show was created for 12 years old doesn't change the fact they can. It's like me saying katons can melt people in an instant....but Kishimoto can't show that in a manga aimed for kids (Naruto in Japan is aimed for 12 years old too) That doesn't change the fact Katons doesn't melt people. As simple as that.



Fine then.  I'll give as many examples of firebender damage as possible:

Zuko's scar, Bato's burn wound that left scars and kept him out of action, Song's wound, and the injured Earth Kingdom soldiers at the Earth kingdom fortress.

I would list damage done by Azula but since she is rather above the average firebender she doesn't count.



> In fact....normal genins probably are as powerful or some could be even more powerful than some genins of rookie 9. Remember many of them failed for many factors different than strength (like the written test...or the fact they couldn't find a scroll in time). Ninjas like Hinata, Sakura or Ino only could pass the second exam only thanks to their teammates.



Does "It was a joke" mean anything to you?



> No.  In fact Pein is all about protecting his village. He is seen as a god by his followers.



Very well. 



> The problem is after that we saw what really could Sound 4 do...so the argument is in favor of the 2 special jounins than against Sound 4....I mean really....Jiroubo can lift hundreds of tons, he has high level dotons and could kick the ass of 2 pills Chouji, Kidomaru could summon giant spiders, that could create hundred of mini spiders to attack the opponent, he was capable to create a shield capable to endure Jyuuken attacks and was able to shoot arrows capable to level a forest, Sakon could survive to a direct impact of Garouga (Kiba's final attack), could fuse with his opponent at molecular level at any time and he had high level taijutsu, Tayuya could summon 3 intangible demons that only could be controlled by Shikamaru's shadow and then she could mess his opponent's mind only using the melody of her flute.



Then maybe those jounins should be promoted.




> Lol. Do you think Villages doesn't have armies?. They have military too. They fight wars and any each of them is superhuman unlike Fire Nation where no all of them are benders and any average bender is way below an average ninja.



Ninja villages may be military entities, but no armies on the scale of what the Fire Nation can field have been seen in the Narutoverse.



> Read Naruto. You don't have any idea what you are talking about. I saw both shows until their last episodes/chapters and Fire Nation doesn't stand a chance in hell.



Do you think that telling me to read Naruto and that you've seen Avatar
 for the hundredth time is going to make a difference?



> Take a look of a standard fodder jounin of Rock Village for example in Kakashi Gaiden. Kakashi was already a jounin and one of them nearly killed him and Yodaime had to save him. These guys could make high level dotons or became invisible without problem. What the hell Fire Nation can do against that?.



You first have to show why Rock Ninja would appear on the east coast.



> What you don't realize is Benders only powers is elemental control while in the case of ninjas elemental jutsus are just a little fraction of all their powers. They are way faster, stronger, durable than regular humans. They can control  elements, some of them can summon, use many weapons with perfect accuracy (like Genin Sakura), they know seals, have kawamiri to cheat the opponent, they can use shunshin, etc.... Ninjas are too much versatile for a Bender to deal with them. And you are trying to put a Nation with some guys that can control fire against village full of jounins who are the highest rank for a ninja and with a kage (and these guys normally are normally capable to take down a whole country by themselves). Take for example Sasori who is a kage level ninja. He defeated a whole (non-ninja) country by himself. And he isn't even the strongest guy in Naruto. 13 years old Itachi defeated his whole clan without problem. Kage level opponents in Naruto are too broken. And any village has at last one of them.
> 
> Now take in account jounins....each of them is so powerful that can defeat many chunnins without breaking a sweat (Asuma did against 9 sound ninjas). And at the end of part 1 all the rookie 9 were barely chunnin level.
> 
> The difference between ninja ranks in Naruto is ridiculous. A standard jounin probably could deal nearly with the whole rookie 9 pre-timeskip. And most of guys of rookie 9 during Sasuke Rescue Arc were already way beyond any bender.



You completely ignored me saying that Lightning Country/Cloud Village is allied with the Fire Nation for this.


----------



## vagnard (Oct 26, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> True.  But the Southern Water Tribe was devastated to the point that it could only field small fleets, and the Northern Tribe was one settlement that showed no active roll in fielding forces.



It was still 2 countries. It showed Fire Nation splits his forces instead focus in one target time by time. 



Bender Ninja said:


> You're ignoring the fact that there are rogue and unscrupulous ninja who would work for the Fire Nation.  And no, they wouldn't just take it from the Fire Nation if it's guarded and on the other side of the ocean.  I also already allied the Lightning country/Cloud village with the Fire Nation.



S-class criminals are very rare. Most of the wandering ninja are chunnin at best. Villages concentrate the most powerful ninjas of the world. The other powerful criminals are Akatsuki Members but they work for themselves...not for another foreign country. Regular criminals isn't an enough force to attack a ninja village. And probably most of them would refuse to lose his lives in an impossible task like that in first place. 

And you never stated in your first post the money was in another country. You are just modifying everything on the way to suit your argument. Lol.

Ninjas aren't so stupid to trust guys who aren't even able to show their money in first place. Most criminals would just take what they have in that moment and just kill them. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Last time I checked, countries are greater than villages.



And how the size matters at all?. Villages are part of countries too. They are other forces that work under the countries beside the villages...like the warrior monks of the Fire Country who fought against Kakuzu and Hidan. 

Most of the people of Avatarverse countries are just regular people. Most of soldiers in Fire Nation are regular guys. 

In fact...most of firebenders are crap. Zhao was a general in Fire Nation and he was defeated by a rookie Zuko nearly at the beginning of the series. (a Zuko that only could punch streams of fire at this point) Imagine the regular soldier bender from the low ranks. Only Royal Family, Combustion Man and Jeong Jeong has showed decent fire bending skills. 



Bender Ninja said:


> On the Avatar Map, both the north pole and south pole are on it.  The Earth Kingdom continent stretches half that distance, and is even longer.  A single ninja village wouldn't be able to get across the continent in a day.  Ninja villages don't occupy whole countries.  But the Fire Nation is the one being evaluated, not the Earth Kingdom.



And how do you know Avatar Planet and Naruto's planet are of the same size of our Earth?. And we haven't seen the whole map of Naruto. For all we know the North Pole and the South Pole (if it have them) could be just above and below what we saw. It could be just one big continent with countries as big as the "continents" of Avatarverse. You are assuming there have to be many continents in Narutoworld.  Nobody really knows extensions here to compare.



Bender Ninja said:


> Irrelevant to the debate.  Take it to the CM vs. Gaara thread.



Concession accepted. 

Fine then.  I'll give as many examples of firebender damage as possible:



Bender Ninja said:


> Zuko's scar,



Just a scar. It didn't even kill him. It was made by probably the most powerful fire bender of the series. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Bato's burn wound that left scars and kept him out of action, Song's wound,



I don't remember these. Show me the examples please.  



Bender Ninja said:


> and the injured Earth Kingdom soldiers at the Earth kingdom fortress.



Lol. They weren't that hurt. It's was more concusive force than real damage. 



Bender Ninja said:


> I would list damage done by Azula but since she is rather above the average firebender she doesn't count.



Even her fire isn't strong enough to kill a ninja. She shoot directly in the heart of an old man like Iroh and she didn't even kill him. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Does "It was a joke" mean anything to you?



Yeah...then don't change the subject. If genins can take down benders easily, then chunnins and jounins will make a shot work of them. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Then maybe those jounins should be promoted.



No. It's just the fact that high chunnin level ninjas aren't as strong as special jounins (and special jounins are weaker than regular jounins...special jounins are basically chunnins with just one special field at jounin level)



Bender Ninja said:


> Ninja villages may be military entities, but no armies on the scale of what the Fire Nation can field have been seen in the Narutoverse.



They have armies of pure superhuman soldiers. In Kakashi Gaiden there was a single squad of 50 rock jounins ninjas fighting against other squad of Konoha just to retrieve a bridge. Take in account each one of these ninjas can take down several guys of Sound 4 level easily (and all of them are way stronger than any bender of Avatarverse....in fact sound 4 could take down easily all the regular fire nation soldiers by themselves)....they have never showed more skill than Zuko at the beginning of the series. 




Bender Ninja said:


> Do you think that telling me to read Naruto and that you've seen Avatar
> for the hundredth time is going to make a difference?



Yes. It makes difference. Because I have the 2 sides of the coin while you only have one. You are assuming things with incomplete info. 



Bender Ninja said:


> You first have to show why Rock Ninja would appear on the east coast.



You are the one who stated Fire Nation's plan was to conquer the whole Narutoverse. That's way retarded. Even the whole Avatarverse together couldn't do it. Much less just the fire nation. 



Bender Ninja said:


> You completely ignored me saying that Lightning Country/Cloud Village is allied with the Fire Nation for this.



You didn't stated in your initial thread. You are just filling info to suit your argument because you want to make Fire Nation win no matter what in this impossible fight. It's ridiculous. 

Why you don't just make it a Ninja War if you are on it?. It's seems Fire Nation already lost all relevance in this match.


----------



## Twili (Oct 26, 2007)

Neji solos.


----------



## HO-OH (Oct 26, 2007)

Charatone said:


> Neji solos.



sorry but the op has forbiden any named charcaters to be involved


----------



## Commander Shepard (Oct 26, 2007)

vagnard said:


> It was still 2 countries. It showed Fire Nation splits his forces instead focus in one target time by time.



Yeah... one country with two settlements and the other continent-size.



> S-class criminals are very rare. Most of the wandering ninja are chunnin at best. Villages concentrate the most powerful ninjas of the world. The other powerful criminals are Akatsuki Members but they work for themselves...not for another foreign country. Regular criminals isn't an enough force to attack a ninja village. And probably most of them would refuse to lose his lives in an impossible task like that in first place.



It would be enough to protect generals.



> And you never stated in your first post the money was in another country. You are just modifying everything on the way to suit your argument. Lol.
> 
> Ninjas aren't so stupid to trust guys who aren't even able to show their money in first place. Most criminals would just take what they have in that moment and just kill them.



I would think it's common sense that the Fire Nation keeps its main treasury back home.  As for the ninja- if they want more (and they would) they would have to work for it.



> And how the size matters at all?. Villages are part of countries too. They are other forces that work under the countries beside the villages...like the warrior monks of the Fire Country who fought against Kakuzu and Hidan.
> 
> Most of the people of Avatarverse countries are just regular people. Most of soldiers in Fire Nation are regular guys.
> 
> In fact...most of firebenders are crap. Zhao was a general in Fire Nation and he was defeated by a rookie Zuko nearly at the beginning of the series. (a Zuko that only could punch streams of fire at this point) Imagine the regular soldier bender from the low ranks. Only Royal Family, Combustion Man and Jeong Jeong has showed decent fire bending skills.



Yes, when it's a force of 100,000 against 1,000, it matters.  And Zhao breezed through his training, while Zuko had the Dragon of the West for a teacher.  Zhao probably was promoted for reasons other than bending.



> And how do you know Avatar Planet and Naruto's planet are of the same size of our Earth?. And we haven't seen the whole map of Naruto. For all we know the North Pole and the South Pole (if it have them) could be just above and below what we saw. It could be just one big continent with countries as big as the "continents" of Avatarverse. You are assuming there have to be many continents in Narutoworld.  Nobody really knows extensions here to compare.



The fact that they have the same gravity should be enough.  And I have actual evidence for this argument, while you are just speculating.



> Concession accepted.



Uncalled for rudeness and arrogance not accepted. 



> Just a scar. It didn't even kill him. It was made by probably the most powerful fire bender of the series.



Well of course a dishonorment ritual isn't meant to be fatal. 



> I don't remember these. Show me the examples please.




*Spoiler*: __ 













> Lol. They weren't that hurt. It's was more concusive force than real damage.



This wasn't "that hurt"? 



And, in the word of General Fong, "they were the lucky ones".



> Even her fire isn't strong enough to kill a ninja. She shoot directly in the heart of an old man like Iroh and she didn't even kill him.



That was a weaker blast than her usual.  Iroh isn't your typical old man, and firebenders have a natural resistance to fire, as evidenced by Zhao and Zuko's Agni Kai.  The fact that she actually almost killed him with a small blast like that is impressive.



> No. It's just the fact that high chunnin level ninjas aren't as strong as special jounins (and special jounins are weaker than regular jounins...special jounins are basically chunnins with just one special field at jounin level)
> 
> They have armies of pure superhuman soldiers. In Kakashi Gaiden there was a single squad of 50 rock jounins ninjas fighting against other squad of Konoha just to retrieve a bridge. Take in account each one of these ninjas can take down several guys of Sound 4 level easily (and all of them are way stronger than any bender of Avatarverse....in fact sound 4 could take down easily all the regular fire nation soldiers by themselves)....they have never showed more skill than Zuko at the beginning of the series.



Just how does this make up for the huge number gap?  The truth is, no ninja or group of ninja has ever taken on a force on the scale of the Fire Nation army. 



> You are the one who stated Fire Nation's plan was to conquer the whole Narutoverse. That's way retarded. Even the whole Avatarverse together couldn't do it. Much less just the fire nation.



They're a difference between suddenly landing with an army hellbent on conquest, and slowly exploring and investigating prospects of invasion before launching it.  And did I ever say that they could completely conquer it?  I said that they could dominate it.  There's a difference. 



> You didn't stated in your initial thread. You are just filling info to suit your argument because you want to make Fire Nation win no matter what in this impossible fight. It's ridiculous.
> 
> Why you don't just make it a Ninja War if you are on it?. It's seems Fire Nation already lost all relevance in this match.



You seemed unreasonably adamant that no ninja would help the Fire Nation, so I took it out of your hands.  Unless, of course, you think both are foreign policy idiots?  The Lightning country wouldn't pass up an oppurtunity to ally with a powerful military nation.  And yes, I said powerful.  Your insults to the Fire Nation don't have much weight.


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## Chocochip (Oct 27, 2007)

All you really have is numbers backing you up. Narutoverse pretty much has every other category.


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 27, 2007)

Numbers and strategy.


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## HO-OH (Oct 27, 2007)

hey bender ninja you havent awnsered why kisames floods cant be used as said in my semi last post his move isnt a kekkai genkai so it can be used


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## Commander Shepard (Oct 27, 2007)

He's a single character, he can't represent the whole Mist Village.  He's Akatsuki anyway, so he wouldn't be there to defend the village.


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## Chocochip (Oct 27, 2007)

Good think all those unamed kages are out there for this


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## Nihonjin (Oct 27, 2007)

Bender ninja, what you don't understand (or refuse to accept) is that FireBenders are a non-factor. It doesn't matter if they're with superior numbers because they can't even compete with a talentless genin.

In order to win they'd need to bribe atleast 50% of the Naruto verse (to make it even) and thats not possible because we've got unnamed Kage who run villages. And even if they by a miracle could bribe that much random nins, the Kage won't betray their village so they'd still lose. Its a well known fact that high ranked nins (with names or titles) >>> an infinite amount of fodder ninja


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## vagnard (Oct 27, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> Yeah... one country with two settlements and the other continent-size.



Yeah...and you still haven't show why they take the strategy you suggest when they normally did a totally different thing. They don't even know the culture, the weapons, the style of fighting of ninjas, nothing....



Bender Ninja said:


> It would be enough to protect generals.



No. They will be overpowered by the inmense superior numbers of high jounin level ninjas from the villages. 



Bender Ninja said:


> I would think it's common sense that the Fire Nation keeps its main treasury back home.  As for the ninja- if they want more (and they would) they would have to work for it.



No. They just would need to use genjutsu to learn the location of the rest of the money. They could even force by sheer power to force fire nation to bring the money to them. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Yes, when it's a force of 100,000 against 1,000, it matters.  And Zhao breezed through his training, while Zuko had the Dragon of the West for a teacher.  Zhao probably was promoted for reasons other than bending.



Prove me there are more benders than ninjas in their respective villages/countries. I seriously doubt raw soldiers were at similar level of Zhao when he was practically the Main Enemy of Season 1. Zuko hardly could do more than regular streams of fire during season 1....so saying the reason was because he had the Dragon of the West as teacher doesn't say too much.



Bender Ninja said:


> The fact that they have the same gravity should be enough.  And I have actual evidence for this argument, while you are just speculating.



No. You are speculating because we have never seen the whole map of Naruto. So you can say for certain that ninja countries are smaller than countries in avatar. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Uncalled for rudeness and arrogance not accepted.



It's not rudeness. I'm just stating a fact. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Well of course a dishonorment ritual isn't meant to be fatal.



Considering how little Ozai cared about Zuko at that point I wouldn't use it as an excuse. 



Bender Ninja said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Yeah...superficial scars that doesn't even kill regular humans like Bato and Song. Try again.  



Bender Ninja said:


> This wasn't "that hurt"?



Again. No lethal damage against regular soldiers. And you don't even know if that was caused by firebending. 



So....just because there are some hurt people in Avatar (lol...nothing new...) that means they could hurt a way more powerful universe?. (especially when there isn't even fathal victims there?)




Bender Ninja said:


> That was a weaker blast than her usual.  Iroh isn't your typical old man, and firebenders have a natural resistance to fire, as evidenced by Zhao and Zuko's Agni Kai.  The fact that she actually almost killed him with a small blast like that is impressive.



Where did you get that was a weaker blast than her usual?.
Where did you get Iroh isn't your typical old man beside firebending?. 
Where did you get firebenders have natural resistance against fire?.

Pure speculation. 



Bender Ninja said:


> Just how does this make up for the huge number gap?  The truth is, no ninja or group of ninja has ever taken on a force on the scale of the Fire Nation army.



Lol. Where did you get there is a huge number gap?. Sasuke randomly found a 1000 ninjas army and defeated them. There a lot of ninjas in Narutoverse. We never have seen an army (of pure benders) in the whole avatarverse. Show me an amount of benders like this please:


*Spoiler*: __ 









That was just a random squad of ninjas that Sasuke casually defeated. Imagine the whole armies of the ninja villages. Take in account that Sasuke is around high jounin level of skill in that moment and he could take down all those ninjas by himself without receiving a single scratch (and he hold his own to not kill them). So there are many people inside the villages that could destroy hundreds of people without any problem. They can defeat hundreds of superhuman people. Imagine what they will do against regular humans like Avatarverse. 



Bender Ninja said:


> They're a difference between suddenly landing with an army hellbent on conquest, and slowly exploring and investigating prospects of invasion before launching it.  And did I ever say that they could completely conquer it?  I said that they could dominate it.  There's a difference.



No. They can dominate anything. Ninjas would just strip of his money and cut fire benders necks with a kunai. They doesn't have to obey them, if they want money they just would take it. 



Bender Ninja said:


> You seemed unreasonably adamant that no ninja would help the Fire Nation, so I took it out of your hands.  Unless, of course, you think both are foreign policy idiots?  The Lightning country wouldn't pass up an oppurtunity to ally with a powerful military nation.  And yes, I said powerful.  Your insults to the Fire Nation don't have much weight.



Cloud Village wouldn't give a shit for a weak country like Fire Nation. They would just take any good they can offer and then just kill them. By they would care about them if a single ninja can take thousands of benders without any problem?.


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## HO-OH (Oct 27, 2007)

Bender Ninja said:


> He's a single character, he can't represent the whole Mist Village.  He's Akatsuki anyway, so he wouldn't be there to defend the village.



well akatsuki are kage level so he could be on par with the mizukage and even if suitons could'nt destroy ships they could just use the hidden mist jutsu and kill everyone on board


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