# If Jiraiya had actually beat Nagato would people still say itachi could beat him?



## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 10, 2015)

What are your thoughts?


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## Blu-ray (Jul 10, 2015)

No. But since he didn't beat Nagato, this is all kind off moot isn't it?

Then again, considering what Itachi did to Nagato I'm sure people would've found something to fall back on.


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## Bonly (Jul 10, 2015)

Yeah some people would still say it. There's this cool thing called match ups where person A is more suited to fight person B as opposed to person C. Now if Jiraiya did win then I'm sure people would view his portrayal to be quite better but some out there wouldn't think it's good enough to win or some might think Itachi was/is a great counter, ect. so yeah even if he won there would be some people who would think Itachi could beat him


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## Legendary Itachi (Jul 10, 2015)

Some Jiraiya fans always bitch about dat Itachi's own statement so why not.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

Most likely yes. Even if he defeated Kaguya and her family all together.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 10, 2015)

Yes. Just because Jiraiya can beat Nagato while Itachi can't doesn't imply that Itachi wouldn't be a bad match-up for Jiraiya and you'd sure as hell get people debating why Itachi would still beat Jiraiya.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 10, 2015)

Of course. these would be the same people who actually thinks itachi one-shots nagato.


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## The Undying (Jul 10, 2015)

Probably. Every Itachi vs. Jiraiya thread is filled with wank on both sides and it's become more of a comical fan war than any sort of legitimate match-up discussion.


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## Hazuki (Jul 10, 2015)

Actually i think that jiraiya himself considered superior to itachi , because he was confident to fight the leader of akatsuki ( who is supposed to be superior to itachi )

still , jiraiya was confident to meet and fight the superior of itachi , and even could have won according to pain himself 

so jiraiya himself  and nagato both of them though  that jiraiya was considered superior to itachi 

that's their opinion but can't deny this


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## ShadoLord (Jul 10, 2015)

This is a interesting thought. 

Even if Jiraiya defeated Nagato, he has nothing strong enough to defeat Susanoo, especially Itachi's Susanoo that was modified with two legendary weapons. So Itachi could of very well defeated Jiraiya even if he had defeated Nagato.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> This is a interesting thought.
> 
> Even if Jiraiya defeated Nagato, he has nothing strong enough to defeat Susanoo, especially Itachi's Susanoo that was modified with two legendary weapons. So Itachi could of very well defeated Jiraiya even if he had defeated Nagato.



I agree he has nothing other than Frog Call, Frog Song, and the underground attack that is the Swamp,


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## Icegaze (Jul 10, 2015)

well tbh if jiriaya defeats kaguya and her family together it means itachi can as well 

those 2 need to not be mentioned in threads anymore. gai is getting there as well and kakashi


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 10, 2015)

Well considering Nagato was completely not combat ready in his cripple Chair, then no Beating Nagato there would mean nothing, And him Beating a Prime Nagato would be an impossibly without Extreme BS being written, Its like how Sakura was able to land a blow against Kaguya, doesn't mean she can instantly blitz all but god tiers. There is a reason Nagato sent out the Pein Rikudo to fight for him, instead of fighting by himself.


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## LostSelf (Jul 10, 2015)

Some people say Itachi is on par with Nagato. So, yes.


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## Kai (Jul 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Some people say Itachi is on par with Nagato. So, yes.


Was waiting for someone to say this


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## Alex Payne (Jul 10, 2015)

Itachi > Oro =/> Jiraiya > Nagato


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hazuki said:


> Actually i think that jiraiya himself considered superior to itachi , because he was confident to fight the leader of akatsuki ( who is supposed to be superior to itachi )
> 
> still , jiraiya was confident to meet and fight the superior of itachi , and even could have won according to pain himself
> 
> ...



 Well, his goal in the first place was to gather intel on Pain. He never once intended on fighting Pain until he really didn't have a choice.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> Was waiting for someone to say this



that's outdated tho. Itachi now can defeat Hashirama with Tsukuyomi. Itachi's fans excuse with every single character basically. 

Hell, even besides that fodder, even Naruto himself.


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## Kai (Jul 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> that's outdated tho. Itachi now can defeat Hashirama with Tsukuyomi. Itachi's fans excuse with every single character basically.
> 
> Hell, even besides that fodder, even Naruto himself.


Kishi's Itachi and NF's fans of Itachi = same love.


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## Skywalker (Jul 10, 2015)

No because Base Jiraiya can casually solo Itachi and Kisame at the same time, Itachi will never be on his level.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 10, 2015)

I think most people would probably put more faith in the Gama Rinsho and had Jiraiya been able to defeat all of Pain by himself, then he probably would have had some alternate techniques.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kishi's Itachi and NF's fans of Itachi = same love.



I wouldn't say so. 
people were calling Minato and itachi "Kishi's Golden boys" 
but you can hardly see that now. 

For me, I never imagined that Kishi will make Kabuto cut itachi in half, or make him gets stabbed by the rocks. Nor did I expect him to fuck Minato over like he did when he got revived as well.

Bottom line is, no one is saved from Kishi's shitty pen.  
Hell, even Madara got trashed in such a savage way after all that crazy plot shield.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2015)

I am pretty sure they would.
Because you know, despite Itachi beating Nagato, some people still think Jiraiya could beat him .
Why the double standarts ? :ignoramus


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## Deer Lord (Jul 10, 2015)

The only character invincible to the end was obito.
that friend died like 5 times and kept coming back.


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

Well, even Obito was handled in some shitty ways some times, and he was not really defeating every one. He actually got his ass kicked more times than not. 

and defeating someone, does not mean that you have to kill them.


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## Hachibi (Jul 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am pretty sure they would.
> Because you know, despite Itachi beating Nagato, some people still think Jiraiya could beat him .
> Why the double standarts ? :ignoramus



 **


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> **



> ignoring B and Narudo's assistance.


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## Deer Lord (Jul 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Well, even Obito was handled in some shitty ways some times, and he was not really defeating every one. He actually got his ass kicked more times than not.
> 
> and defeating someone, does not mean that you have to kill them.


He still pulled the greatest of trolls with that Juubi sealing though


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## Trojan (Jul 10, 2015)

I guess so. But to be honest the meltdown of the previous chapter to that when he lost to Kakashi was amazing. 

I did enjoy King of Lightning's wrath over the troll of the Juubi's seal tho (I was mad to lol).


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## Hachibi (Jul 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> > ignoring B and Narudo's assistance.



Who?


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## StickaStick (Jul 10, 2015)

Kishi trolled Obito massively when he gave his S-T Susano'O to Kakashi which I'd been begging hopping for for a while. I will however take him being the first Juubi-Jin and being partially responsible for turning Naruto into god-mode. (And being a cool-guy ofc.) Although I think reading T-bag's response after each troll Obito pulled off might be the highlight of my time reading these forums 

OT: Yes they would, because his fans are tards very loyal


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## Deer Lord (Jul 10, 2015)

^
that was a troll on obito's part, not kishi.
Even when he dies he just says FUCK NO to death and kamuis back.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 10, 2015)

Fuck Obito Zetsu is the greatest troll.

He trolled basically everyone(except for Itachi).

I still laugh my ass off whenever I remember him stealing Kyuubi from Minato


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## Deer Lord (Jul 10, 2015)

minato was too busy having a flashback to notice zetsu 

the whole backstabbing madara I consider more of an asspull/plotBS than a troll tho.


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## Mercurial (Jul 10, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> What are your thoughts?



That he didn't beat Nagato in first place (he actually never fought him, he only fought Pain). So that's moot point. That's like saying "if Tenten did defeat Madara, would you have said that Tenten > Madara".


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 10, 2015)

Jiraiya never fought Nagato, he fought his technique- Pain. 

If he'd beat Pain in Amegakure..

1. CT wouldn't have been used in the village
2. CST wouldn't have been used in the village

Thus... Pain (Deva) wouldn't have the feats to make them as strong as they proved they were against SM Naruto. 

So yes, people would still suggest Itachi could beat him, because people still suggest he can beat (Pain-arc) SM Naruto- the guy who overcame CT.

There was actually a recent thread where some debaters said Itachi > SM Naruto


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## Turrin (Jul 10, 2015)

If Jiraiya beat Pain, than all of a sudden Itachi wouldn't have been lying in PI and they'd all have that quote in their sig holding it up as gospel truth.


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## LostSelf (Jul 10, 2015)

Rock Lee defeated Madara, too .


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> > ignoring B and Narudo's assistance.



 They certainly didn't do anything when Itachi stuck a Totsuka straight through Nagato's soul.


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> They certainly didn't do anything when Itachi stuck a Totsuka straight through Nagato's soul.


Come on bruv, they countered CT and acted as major distractions for Nagato Kabuto.


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Come on bruv, they countered CT and acted as major distractions for Nagato Kabuto.



 Yet the Totsuka blade came after Chibaku Tensei.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If Jiraiya beat Pain, than all of a sudden Itachi wouldn't have been lying in PI and they'd all have that quote in their sig holding it up as gospel truth.



I see it like this as well, but in order for Jiraiya to do that, I think we probably would have seen more unique jutsu from him. Personally at the time, since Naruto had recently used a wind-style rasengan, I was hoping to see a fire-style one from Jiraiya, but that never happened sadly.

However, with knowledge, I can see Jiraiya solo'ing the Six Paths of Pain though. Unfortunately, in the manga, he just had the misfortune of being the guinea pig.


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## LostSelf (Jul 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet the Totsuka blade came after Chibaku Tensei.



Without Naruto and Bee, thwre wouldn't have been a Totsuka after CT.

Actually, without Naruto and Bee and the surprise factor, there wouldn't have been a Susano'o probably .


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## Turrin (Jul 11, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I see it like this as well, but in order for Jiraiya to do that, I think we probably would have seen more unique jutsu from him. Personally at the time, since Naruto had recently used a wind-style rasengan, I was hoping to see a fire-style one from Jiraiya, but that never happened sadly.
> .


It really depends on if Pain would have been willing to use CST, CT, or GM in Amegakure. If he was willing to do so than, I don't see Jiraiya winning knowledge or otherwise. If he wasn't willing than like Pain hypothesized I could see Jiraiya beating Pain in that hypothetical situation with knowledge.

So in essence I agree that if he were to defeat a fully unrestricted Pain he'd need better Jutsu. But an unrestricted Pain is also way above Itachi, so if he did accomplish it, I know the Itachi-fans would be latching onto Itachi's old statement to force Itachi to be on that level.



NarutoX28 said:


> Yet the Totsuka blade came after Chibaku Tensei.


So w/o help he dies to CT before he gets a chance to use Totuska


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It really depends on if Pain would have been willing to use CST, CT, or GM in Amegakure. If he was willing to do so than, I don't see Jiraiya winning knowledge or otherwise. If he wasn't willing than like Pain hypothesized I could see Jiraiya beating Pain in that hypothetical situation with knowledge.
> 
> So in essence I agree that if he were to defeat a fully unrestricted Pain he'd need better Jutsu. But an unrestricted Pain is also way above Itachi, so if he did accomplish it, I know the Itachi-fans would be latching onto Itachi's old statement to force Itachi to be on that level.


I doubt he would do a CST in his own village, it really wouldn't make him popular but smaller versions of it I can see being used (e.g. like against Kakashi and co.).

I wanted to see more of his senjutsu elemental arsenal, especially elements that rarely get screen time, like wind.


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## Soul (Jul 13, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> What are your thoughts?



I believe that the A>B>C logic has been proven to be useless in the Battledome.
It wouldn't have mattered, unless Jiraiya showed something more that could give him an edge over Itachi.

The outcome of his fight with Nagato is useless to use as a comparison to his performance against Itachi.



This thread does not belong in the battledome, by the way.


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## Turrin (Jul 13, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I doubt he would do a CST in his own village, it really wouldn't make him popular but smaller versions of it I can see being used (e.g. like against Kakashi and co.).
> 
> I wanted to see more of his senjutsu elemental arsenal, especially elements that rarely get screen time, like wind.


I also doubt he would use CT, CST, or GM in the village, which I think is why Nagato thought Jiraiya would have a chance against Pain with more knowledge.


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## Hexa (Jul 13, 2015)

Probably.  Itachi and Nagato in the war arc were presented as pretty much equivalents, being on the same team, making remarks about "with our power combined", etc.  Plus, he didn't seem to be struggling much in the fight against Nagato.  They're very often put on the same tier by the Naruto fandom, so Jiraiya beating Nagato would just basically put Jiraiya up to that tier as well.

I feel like the question "If Itachi had beat Orochimaru, would Jiraiya fans still think he could beat him?" is essentially the same type of question in reverse.  The answer to this one is definitely "yes".


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## Bloo (Jul 13, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Without Naruto and Bee, thwre wouldn't have been a Totsuka after CT.
> 
> Actually, without Naruto and Bee and the surprise factor, there wouldn't have been a Susano'o probably .


I hate this debate because you can't prove either side of it. You can't prove it was necessary for Naruto and Bee to contribute, and you can't prove that Itachi could have done it alone. All in all, it's a shitty point in a conversation.


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## LostSelf (Jul 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I hate this debate because you can't prove either side of it. You can't prove it was necessary for Naruto and Bee to contribute, and you can't prove that Itachi could have done it alone. All in all, it's a shitty point in a conversation.



Do you remember when Itachi was charging Koto, that Nagato sensed it with a lot of time beforehand?

Put Itachi as his enemy, attempting that and he might've died. I don't know how the fight would've played out. But Itachi wouldn't have defeated Nagato by himself.

He doesn't have the firepower to destroy the core, wich can take thousands of weight of the rocks being pulled with enough force to subdue a Bijuu, and the entire chapter was relying on your friends to overcome bigger obstacles, aka, Nagato.

It's actually a Battledome type of conversation, in wich Nagato is above and is well suited to fight Itachi, IMO.

But yeah, i actually don't like to base Itachi vs Nagato with that fight. Because, if we're going to say Itachi is stronger than Nagato (Who dominated two shinobis of high caliber like if they were fodders), we can say the same about Rock Lee hitting Madara.

Because Rock Lee wasn't struggling much while he ran towards Mads and cut him in half. But i am pretty sure that, without that outside help and circunstances, he would've been crushed.


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## Bloo (Jul 14, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Do you remember when Itachi was charging Koto, that Nagato sensed it with a lot of time beforehand?
> 
> Put Itachi as his enemy, attempting that and he might've died. I don't know how the fight would've played out. But Itachi wouldn't have defeated Nagato by himself.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing Nagato wouldn't win against Itachi one one one. I'm simply addressing that we have absolutely no idea what Yasaka Magatama has in terms of power, and Nagato's CT core gained defense while Itachi took time to explain to Naruto how to deduct a jutsu. From a propositional standpoint, you can't argue either side because there's not enough information. We simply have an upper limit, and from that we know that attacks more powerful than the combination of the three attacks would work assuredly. We don't know anything about attacks weaker than it. The closest comparison to what I'm trying to explain would be the _Direct Comparison Test_ in calculus.



> But yeah, i actually don't like to base Itachi vs Nagato with that fight. Because, if we're going to say Itachi is stronger than Nagato (Who dominated two shinobis of high caliber like if they were fodders), we can say the same about Rock Lee hitting Madara.
> 
> Because Rock Lee wasn't struggling much while he ran towards Mads and cut him in half. But i am pretty sure that, without that outside help and circunstances, he would've been crushed.


That's a fair point. My main criticism towards that is that Naruto and Killer Bee, at that point, were _much_ more reckless in fighting than Itachi ever has displayed. Which means the fight would look entirely different, not to say Itachi would win.


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## LostSelf (Jul 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I'm not arguing Nagato wouldn't win against Itachi one one one. I'm simply addressing that we have absolutely no idea what Yasaka Magatama has in terms of power, and Nagato's CT core gained defense while Itachi took time to explain to Naruto how to deduct a jutsu. From a propositional standpoint, you can't argue either side because there's not enough information. We simply have an upper limit, and from that we know that attacks more powerful than the combination of the three attacks would work assuredly. We don't know anything about attacks weaker than it. The closest comparison to what I'm trying to explain would be the _Direct Comparison Test_ in calculus.



Actually, yes. I went a bit far with my argument, considering it's not directly part of the thread, even though Nagato is present here, it's not a direct fight. We cannot certainly know, however, we can compare. I see three things that makes me believe YM wouldn't have been unable to do. Well, no, four. One is the relying on your friends argument, one is how Madara's (Who should have a more powerful Susano'o due to superior chakra, but not gonna go that route, you can take it relevant if you agree with that) Yasaka fared against Gaara and Onoki's defense, the third is Itachi wasting time in a no knowlege situation against a jutsu very powerful explaining Naruto and CT's durability.

Just going to explain the last one, considering it's not the thread for this. But the core pulls giant chunks of rocks towards it, each chunk of boulder accumulates, it's weight accumulates all over it, and adding to that, the core has to take all that weight with a huge amount of pressure (The weight plus the pulling pressure with is quite big, considering it needed 8 tails Kyuubi to get out, and Nagato implied he could captue that with a second CT). If the core is able remain intact with all that, it should be much more durable than Gaara and Onoki's defense, wich took Madara's YM. Actually, in terms of durability, the core should be out of that combined defense's league.



> That's a fair point. My main criticism towards that is that Naruto and Killer Bee, at that point, were _much_ more reckless in fighting than Itachi ever has displayed. Which means the fight would look entirely different, not to say Itachi would win.




Yes, i agree. I just used that as a portrayal comparison. Plot and all are always there, but if the author has two individuals doing ok against somebody by themselves, and being stomped together by another, without any kind of injury that affects their power, it's kind of showcasing the latter as more powerful or being superior..

But then again, Itachi's not all about power.


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## Bloo (Jul 14, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, yes. I went a bit far with my argument, considering it's not directly part of the thread, even though Nagato is present here, it's not a direct fight. We cannot certainly know, however, we can compare. I see three things that makes me believe YM wouldn't have been unable to do. Well, no, four. One is the relying on your friends argument, one is how Madara's (Who should have a more powerful Susano'o due to superior chakra, but not gonna go that route, you can take it relevant if you agree with that) Yasaka fared against Gaara and Onoki's defense, the third is Itachi wasting time in a no knowlege situation against a jutsu very powerful explaining Naruto and CT's durability.
> 
> Just going to explain the last one, considering it's not the thread for this. But the core pulls giant chunks of rocks towards it, each chunk of boulder accumulates, it's weight accumulates all over it, and adding to that, the core has to take all that weight with a huge amount of pressure (The weight plus the pulling pressure with is quite big, considering it needed 8 tails Kyuubi to get out, and Nagato implied he could captue that with a second CT). If the core is able remain intact with all that, it should be much more durable than Gaara and Onoki's defense, wich took Madara's YM. Actually, in terms of durability, the core should be out of that combined defense's league.


That's simply residing on Madara's YM, which was less compact than Itachi's and we still don't have that much information (especially when we bring in comparisons to the CT core to Gaara's defense). I personally think the CT core itself is weak, but gains defense from rubble. But, again, we have no idea so I don't care to argue for or against either side of it.



> Yes, i agree. I just used that as a portrayal comparison. Plot and all are always there, but if the author has two individuals doing ok against somebody by themselves, and being stomped together by another, without any kind of injury that affects their power, it's kind of showcasing the latter as more powerful or being superior..
> 
> But then again, Itachi's not all about power.


It's tricky. But, I just think of Itachi and Nagato as just being comparable since the War Arc seemed to put them in similar tiers, with Nagato having more raw strength, and Itachi having more refined skill.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Hexa said:


> I feel like the question "If Itachi had beat Orochimaru, would Jiraiya fans still think he could beat him?" is essentially the same type of question in reverse.  The answer to this one is definitely "yes".



#rekt


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## LostSelf (Jul 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> That's simply residing on Madara's YM, which was less compact than Itachi's and we still don't have that much information (especially when we bring in comparisons to the CT core to Gaara's defense). I personally think the CT core itself is weak, but gains defense from rubble. But, again, we have no idea so I don't care to argue for or against either side of it.



But the difference in durability between both defenses are bigger than the probable difference between Madara's YM and Itachi's.

But we gotta agree to disagree with the core, then. Not only because it sustains thousands of pounds of pressure without breaking (Wich wouldn't manage to do if it was weak), but because i don't think anybody can see the Rinnegan's strongest attack and say "Lol, let me destroy it with a Katon". Kishimoto would've made Itachi do it by himself if that were the case, considering that he doesn't stop to anything when it comes to hyping Itachi, though. And he wouldn't miss the opportunity to showcase.



> It's tricky. But, I just think of Itachi and Nagato as just being comparable since the War Arc seemed to put them in similar tiers, with Nagato having more raw strength, and Itachi having more refined skill.



It's more like Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato, though. If they were presented as equals, it might've been cripple Nagato, too, who fared as well as him against similar opponents. But Edo Nagato was already weaker, considering he couldn't use Gedo Mazo, and unlimited chakra didn't benefit him, while Itachi could benefit quite a lot and ignore MS drawbacks. Both living would make a bigger difference. (It's just how i see it, not saying that your view is wrong).

But then again, is not the point of this thread. But my response somehow fits, considering some believe Itachi is on Nagato's level, therefore, they would not still think Jiraiya could defeat Itachi, probably.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 14, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Probably.  Itachi and Nagato in the war arc were presented as pretty much equivalents, being on the same team, making remarks about "with our power combined", etc.  Plus, he didn't seem to be struggling much in the fight against Nagato. They're very often put on the same tier by the Naruto fandom, so Jiraiya beating Nagato would just basically put Jiraiya up to that tier as well.
> 
> I feel like the question "If Itachi had beat Orochimaru, would Jiraiya fans still think he could beat him?" is essentially the same type of question in reverse.  The answer to this one is definitely "yes".


Not sure what War-arc you were reading but it took Itachi switching teams and allying with the two most powerful Jinchuriki to defeat Edo Nagato. 

I don't recall seeing any modern debaters suggesting Edo Itachi is close to Edo Nagato, a man who should conceivably be capable of chain-gunning CST and Asura Lasers.  

If we're talking Prime Orochimaru, he resurrects Edo Minato, leeches into the ground and Edo Minato blitzes, disables, and seals Itachi himself. 

If we're talking PT.1 or PT.2 Armless Orochimaru- Jiraiya would sweep him under the table without injury.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Probably.  Itachi and Nagato in the war arc were presented as pretty much equivalents, being on the same team. I feel like the question "If Itachi had beat Orochimaru, would Jiraiya fans still think he could beat him?" is essentially the same type of question in reverse. The answer to this one is definitely "yes".


Of course you do, because you make up hypocritical false equivalencies. Orochimaru is falsely equated to Jiraiya because you see equivalency between the Sannin, despite the Sannin literally never being equal in the entire manga cannon. You force equivalency between Nagato and Itachi, based on the  same "evidence" that could place Shin as equal to Deidara and Sasori. 

However what's worse you don't even follow these false equivalencies to their natural conclusion. If the Sannin are always equal that means Jiraiya = Tsunade = Orochimaru w/ Edo-Hokages. If Itachi was suppose to be seen as equal to Nagato in that moment, that means Itachi at his absolute best is equal to Nagato at his absolute worst, weakened to the point he was at when he sacrificed all his strength to use Gedo Rinnei Tensei on the village, w/o Pain Rikudo, and lacking the ability to summon GM, meaning Nagato is way fucking stronger than Itachi in ether of his other incarnations.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 14, 2015)

The "equalized" power level stigma on the forums between the Sannin is beginning to get annoying. It doesn't exist. They're three ninja from a team who were given a name from Hanzo the Salamander- it in no way, shape or form suggests they're equal in power individually.

Prime Orochimaru w/arms is the strongest with the Edo Kage.

Normally, Jiraiya is the strongest, by nearly half a tier. 

However, all three of them easily dominate a battlefield with their summons and individual strength- which is why they are all Mid-kage level.

There is, however, no such thing as "Sannin Level" unless you're referring to [Middle to High] Mid-Kage level.


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## Hexa (Jul 14, 2015)

Jiraiya was Orochimaru's rival and spent the majority of his adult life fulfilling a "Yamato"-type role, keeping an eye on Orochimaru while Orochimaru conducted often fatal human experiments on kidnapped babies.  Beyond that, Orochimaru very clearly thought he was the stronger of the two.

If anything Orochimaru is presented as the stronger of the two (although, it makes sense given the snake vs. toad relation, so it's a bit much to say it implies overall superiority).


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 14, 2015)

Hexa said:


> Jiraiya was Orochimaru's rival and spent the majority of his adult life fulfilling a "Yamato"-type role, keeping an eye on Orochimaru while Orochimaru conducted often fatal human experiments on kidnapped babies.  Beyond that, Orochimaru very clearly thought he was the stronger of the two.
> 
> If anything Orochimaru is presented as the stronger of the two (although, it makes sense given the snake vs. toad relation, so it's a bit much to say it implies overall superiority).


Feats dictate Jiraiya as stronger than Orochimaru. 

Hype dictates Jiraiya as trainer of three High Kage+ World Defining Ninja, and the ability to, by one of these High Kage's own admission (Nagato), defeat Pain with prior intelligence, thus stronger there as well. 

Orochimaru may have been more intelligent than Jiraiya, he, however, did not have the talent Jiraiya had, which translated far better to the combatant spectrum.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Kishimoto retecon'd a-lot of shit from the Chunin Exams Arc, because when writing that arc he didn't know how long the story would go for and how popular it would become. It's very clear that he originally intended Orochimaru to be the main villain when writing the CE exams, that's why Hiruzen back then was the strongest Hokage, that's why all the Sannin were equally the strongest Ninja, that's why Old Hiruzen was the strongest Gokage, and so on. However as the story became more popular during the height of the Chunin Exams and Kishi realized he'd be able to right a much longer story he changed a bunch of things to account for that, and one of those is the fact that Orochimaru was no longer the main villain, and with that concept, the Sannin being equals, Hiruzen's standings, etc... all got retecon'd. Jiraiya could be stronger than Orochimaru at all times, because there were tougher villains for him to go up against in Akatsuki.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Of course you do, because you make up hypocritical false equivalencies. Orochimaru is falsely equated to Jiraiya because you see equivalency between the Sannin, despite the Sannin literally never being equal in the entire manga cannon. You force equivalency between Nagato and Itachi, based on the  same "evidence" that could place Shin as equal to Deidara and Sasori.



spread

Contextually, when Tsunade wasn't present at that point, it can be interpreted as Jman = Oro. 
In other words. Naruto / Sasuke thing 



> However what's worse you don't even follow these false equivalencies to their natural conclusion. If the Sannin are always equal that means Jiraiya = Tsunade = Orochimaru w/ Edo-Hokages. If Itachi was suppose to be seen as equal to Nagato in that moment, that means Itachi at his absolute best is equal to Nagato at his absolute worst, weakened to the point he was at when he sacrificed all his strength to use Gedo Rinnei Tensei on the village, w/o Pain Rikudo, and lacking the ability to summon GM, meaning Nagato is way fucking stronger than Itachi in ether of his other incarnations.



Semantics.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 14, 2015)

Chapter 91, Grimmjow? Talk about up-to-date. (Sarcasm)

It can be taken as another ninja of enormous power is needed to protect the village against Orochimaru.

Feat-wise, Jiraiya is superior. 

Hype-wise, Jiraiya is equal to Itachi & Kisame combined, has the power to stall the entire Akatsuki organization and defeat Pain with intelligence.

Feat/Hype Wise Orochimaru was defeated by Itachi twice, and canonically admitted inferiority to Itachi.

Anyway you want to come at it, it's been established that Jiraiya is superior on both the feat and hype fronts of this manga when compared to Pre War-arc Orochimaru.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> spread


Okay cool so Jiriaya > Kaguya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi, because only a Sannin can beat  a Sannin. Otherwise your a hypocrite.

Edit: Or maybe you can realize that the power structure in CE was heavily retecon'd.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Chapter 91, Grimmjow? Talk about up-to-date. (Sarcasm)
> 
> It can be taken as another ninja of enormous power is needed to protect the village against Orochimaru.
> 
> ...







Turrin said:


> Okay cool so Jiriaya > Kaguya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi, because only a Sannin can beat  a Sannin. Otherwise your a hypocrite.
> 
> Edit: Or maybe you can realize that the power structure in CE was heavily retecon'd.



Wait so you guys agree that the same logic can be applied to chapter 144 right ?
spread


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wait so you guys agree that the same logic can be applied to chapter 144 right ?
> spread


I'm not sure what your driving at here. Are you saying Ch 144 is  a Retecon? If so the difference is Jiriaya >= Itachi became more supported as the manga went on, while only a Sannin can beat a Sannin, and overall Sannin equality was outright contradicted. But I will say claiming Ch 144 was a retecon makes more sense than all the other ridiculous Itachi-Fan claims of Itachi lying which defies all common sense and linguistic reasoning.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I If so the difference is Jiriaya >= Itachi became more supported as the manga went on, while only a Sannin can beat a Sannin, and overall Sannin equality was outright contradicted.





Are you being serious ? 

Manga has done nothing to contradict the notion that Orochimaru and Jiraiya had the same relationship Sasuke and Naruto had, both power and plot wise. 

While on the other hand, manga has drove far far away from the remark about Itachi and Jiraiya being equals with every bit of information we got.

I don't remember the Jiriaya/Orochimaru parellel/rivalry being debated once. On the other hand, Jiraiya/Itachi thing was subject to interpretation and heavy debates from the very start.


And that hypocrisy oh man. Orochimaru = Jiraiya can be discarded because that chapter is very old. But hey, lets cling on to Jiraiya = Itachi despite the fact that the chapter is just as old and was heavily contridicted thorugh out the entire manga.


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## Kai (Jul 14, 2015)

Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya.

5ever.


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## Bloo (Jul 14, 2015)

I think Kishimoto could explicitly state that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya, and even draw a chapter or two of them fighting. With Itachi coming out unscathed and victorious, and people would _still_ use the outdated and subjective statement from Chapter 144.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you being serious ?
> 
> Manga has done nothing to contradict the notion that Orochimaru and Jiraiya had the same relationship Sasuke and Naruto had, both power and plot wise.


Were Naruto and Sasuke always equal throughout the story? Were Madara and Hashirama always equal? Were Gai and Kakashi? 

Rival does not mean equal. 



> While on the other hand, manga has drove far far away from the remark about Itachi and Jiraiya being equals with every bit of information we got.


Without relying on false equivalencies, please show me this "every bit of information". 



> I don't remember the Jiriaya/Orochimaru parellel/rivalry being debated once


And i'm not debating it, they are rivals. But being rivals doesn't mean always equal. Otherwise Jiriaya = to Gaiden Orochimaru who can probably decimate Itachi as easily as swatting a fly. 



> On the other hand, Jiraiya/Itachi thing was subject to interpretation and heavy debates from the very start.


For anyone who understands the actual Japanese language it's not subject to interpretation and anyone can debate anything, it doesn't make them correct. Any argument against the statement besides it being a retecon is factually incorrect.



> And that hypocrisy oh man. Orochimaru = Jiraiya can be discarded because that chapter is very old. But hey, lets cling on to Jiraiya = Itachi despite the fact that the chapter is just as old and was heavily contridicted thorugh out the entire manga.


First off the statement doesn't even say Orochimaru = Jiriaya, it just says only a Sannin can hope to defeat a Sannin. Secondly I disregard that statement because it has been outright shown to be false, we known plenty of people can beat a Sannin. However in the case of Itachi's statement it has not been shown to be false. Again this is just another usage of false equivalency. 

However like I said before I can appreciate the idea that the statement was retecon'd much more than other Itachi-fan nonsense arguments. However merely suggesting a somewhat feesible possibility isn't enough to make your argument compelling, you need to then expand on why the manga has shown factually that the statement is a retecon, which is ultimately where the argument stops being compelling for me as to this day removing all the BS false equivalencies from Itachi-fans arguments I have not seen any substance to them beyond, I like Itachi's abiltieis better therefore I consider them better.

If you can demonstrated otherwise, than I will gladly accept the idea of it being a retecon as a plausible alternative, but I doubt you are capable of doing so.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I think Kishimoto could explicitly state that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya, and even draw a chapter or two of them fighting. With Itachi coming out unscathed and victorious, and people would _still_ use the outdated and subjective statement from Chapter 144.


To be honest with you Bloo if Kishi came out and said Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya, I wouldn't care, because as far as my favorite characters go I can careless about how strong they are. The fact that Jiraiya was literally thee best character and involved in thee best battle of the entire fucking manga, and is one of the few characters Kishi didn't rape in the war-arc [present company of Itachi deffinately not excluded] is more than enough to satiate my fandom for Jiraiya. 

What I do care about is logic and reason, and as things stand Jiraiya >= Itachi is a much more supported and logical premise than Itachi >>>> Jiriaya. Kishi coming out later and saying it's the reverse won't change that fact ether, it will just be new information, which again I could careless about because Jiraiya would still be a vastly superior character to Itachi in every other facet, which to be frank it's those facet's I care more about than strength anyway.

So to be honest I while I would prefer Kishi stating Jiriaya >= Itachi, because to me that would be the logical conclusion to draw from the manga. If Kishi stated Itachi >>>> Jiriaya, I'd be fine with it and at this point I'd prefer that over Kishi stating nothing, because it would at least end the discussion.


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## Bloo (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> To be honest with you Bloo if Kishi came out and said Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya, I wouldn't care, because as far as my favorite characters go I can careless about how strong they are. The fact that Jiraiya was literally thee best character and involved in thee best battle of the entire fucking manga, and is one of the few characters Kishi didn't rape in the war-arc [present company of Itachi deffinately not excluded] is more than enough to satiate my fandom for Jiraiya.
> 
> What I do care about is logic and reason, and as things stand Jiraiya >= Itachi is a much more supported and logical premise than Itachi >>>> Jiriaya. Kishi coming out later and saying it's the reverse won't change that fact ether, it will just be new information, which again I could careless about because Jiraiya would still be a vastly superior character to Itachi in every other facet, which to be frank it's those facet's I care more about than strength anyway.
> 
> So to be honest I while I would prefer Kishi stating Jiriaya >= Itachi, because to me that would be the logical conclusion to draw from the manga. If Kishi stated Itachi >>>> Jiriaya, I'd be fine with it and at this point I'd prefer that over Kishi stating nothing, because it would at least end the discussion.


I wasn't talking about character at all, but I'm glad you have a deep connection with your favorite. I have the same opinion of Itachi. I don't quite care about his power (although it is a nice perk), but his character arc, for me, is the most phenomenal of the series. I never got the appeal of Jiraiya, but I loved his death and I think it's awesome people can connect with him despite me not seeing how.

I still say that chapter would still be brought up in discussion if Kishimoto said that. Same could be said for the opposite case.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I think Kishimoto could explicitly state that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya, and even draw a chapter or two of them fighting. With Itachi coming out unscathed and victorious, and people would _still_ use the outdated and subjective statement from Chapter 144.



Thats my point. 

The irony in OP 

Jiraiya =< Orochimaru
Itachi defeats Orochimaru

Jiraiya fans : Jiraiya > Itachi

Jiraiya <<< Nagato
Itachi defeats Nagato
Jiraiya fans : Jiraiya > Itachi

Why ? 

Because chapter 144

BTW lets disregard the statement from chapter 91 because it was said long time ago.


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## Rocky (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin, do you think Jiraiya is stronger than the Orochimaru that fought Hiruzen? If so, I'd love to know why.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I wasn't talking about character at all, but I'm glad you have a deep connection with your favorite. I have the same opinion of Itachi. I don't quite care about his power (although it is a nice perk), but his character arc, for me, is the most phenomenal of the series. I never got the appeal of Jiraiya, but I loved his death and I think it's awesome people can connect with him despite me not seeing how.
> 
> .


I know what you were talking about, but what I was saying was I wouldn't care if Kishimoto came out and said Jiriaya was weaker than Itachi or anyone else for that matter, because he already did right by Jiraiya outside of strength. 



> I still say that chapter would still be brought up in discussion if Kishimoto said that. Same could be said for the opposite case


I disagree. The fact of the matter is there were more statements about Prime-Hiruzen being the strongest Hokage than there are about Jiraiya >= Itachi. And whose the strongest Hokage debate was equally as charged as Itachi vs Jiraiya, yet even w/o Kishimoto coming right out and stating that Hashirama is stronger than Prime-Hiruzen or even having a character state such, but just through demonstrating the massive gap between them and never showing anything from Hiruzen that would allow him to match Hashirama by the end of the manga, basically everyone accepts that Prime-Hiruzen being the strongest was probably retecon'd, and even the most open fans would only say well maybe there is still a minuscule possibility of Kishimoto returning to Prime-Hiruzen's hype at some point in future sequels. 

So no if Kishimoto stated Itachi was stronger, everyone would accept it. I do think people might discuss whether Itachi when sick was still stronger than Jiraiya though, and try to make sense of the chapter 144 statement that way, unless Kishi explicitly states Itachi was always stronger than Jiraiya, in which case everyone would just say chapter 144 was a retecon.

Itachi-fans on the other hand would continue to say Itachi is stronger, because objectively half of your fandom are trolls or are simply contrarians. Case and point, Grimnjow's troll post above.



Rocky said:


> Turrin, do you think Jiraiya is stronger than the Orochimaru that fought Hiruzen? If so, I'd love to know why.


Mostly Because Jiraiya had reached the level in his training where he could use Sennin Modo while Orochimaru could not, and his overall better hype.


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## LostSelf (Jul 14, 2015)

You should update your tier list, Turrin. Because Lee is above Madara's level. He has the feats backing him up. Kicking Madara in half and outspeeding red gate Gai with a Kunai.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh well. If Sannin are equal, then Jiraiya is no doubts near god-level. Considering that Orochimaru can summon Edo Minato. So, Jiraiya killing Itachi, Kisame + Akatsuki would be canon .

However, we know the Sannins are not equal. They never were. What people mistake with this are matchups. Just like Minato cannot kill Sandaime Raikage without killing himself, Orochimaru can be hard to kill by Jiraiya (or counter him). But i'm pretty sure Minato is not on Sandaime's level.


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## Rocky (Jul 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Mostly Because Jiraiya had reached the level in his training where he could use Sennin Modo while Orochimaru could not...



This is a reason for thinking that Jiraiya is stronger? Jiraiya was better at senjutsu than Minato was, so is he stronger?

Come on now. Orochimaru has other tricks related to his White Snake power alongside broken jutsu like (PI) Edo Tensei. Him not being a sage has nothing to do with how he stacks up to Jiraiya.



Turrin said:


> ...and his overall better hype.



Lol, like what?

As far as statements go, the Sannin are always grouped together. When the two had their mini-fight during the Search for Tsunade arc, gimped Orochimaru got the best of gimped Jiraiya.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is a reason for thinking that Jiraiya is stronger? Jiraiya was better at senjutsu than Minato was, so is he stronger?


If Minato's entire style focused around Toad Arts, and his mastery of the greatest Toad art, Sennin Modo was inferior to Jiraiya's than sure he'd be weaker. But he has other abilities outside the Toad Arts that can measure up to Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and Senpo Techniques. Orochimaru on the other hand is primarily focused on Snake Arts, and unlike Jiriaya he can't use the greatest Snake Art, Sennin Modo. Additionally his other skills outside Snake Arts do not measure up to Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and Senpo Tehcniques.



> Come on now. Orochimaru has other tricks related to his White Snake power alongside broken jutsu like (PI) Edo Tensei. Him not being a sage has nothing to do with how he stacks up to Jiraiya.


WSM and PI-Edo-Tensei are nowhere near Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and Senpo Techniques in strength. Fukasaku and Shima alone are way more powerful than those Tensei, and Orochimaru is actually weaker in WSM in most situations because he can't use Jutsu.



> Lol, like what?


Itachi stating Jiriaya is >= to him, while he beat Orochimaru. Nagato saying Jiraiya could beat Pain under the right conditions. Kakashi thinking Jiraiya's accomplishment against Pain is insane. Minato calling Jiriaya the finest Shinboi he knows. His Mission record and stats being better than Orochimaru. etc....



> As far as statements go, the Sannin are always grouped together.


That's just false.



> When the two had their mini-fight during the Search for Tsunade arc, gimped Orochimaru got the best of gimped Jiraiya.


No a handicapped Orochimaru w/ the help of Kabuto bested a handicapped Jiraiya momentarily. Otherwise the fight would have ended w/ Yomi Numa.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 14, 2015)

"Despite our mutual handicaps, you're still weaker than me."


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 14, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> What are your thoughts?



Based on Nagato's words? No. Why? That's because that involved that precise situation where Nagato would underestimate Jiraiya's Genjutsu i.e. in another scenario where Nagato knew of the illusion, he'd still stomp Jiraiya.

That wouldn't change much if Jiraiya won.

If, however, Jiraiya managed to beat Nagato with his power and abilities, not via a gift fate gave him (Nagato underrating his illusions) then we'd say Jiraiya would beat Itachi.
Why? Because Itachi is weaker than Nagato by miles.

Though if you said Jiraiya beat MS Sasuke, then we'd still say Jiraiya can beat Itachi because MS Sasuke is stronger than Itachi.

Basically if Jiraiya beats someone stronger than Itachi, then obviously Jiraiya could take Itachi all the time. If Jiraiya beats someone stronger than Itachi due to unique circumstances which can't be repeated in all scenarios, then no.


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## Turrin (Jul 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> "Despite our mutual handicaps, you're still weaker than me"


Indeed what a fair match it was between just Jiraiya and Orochimaru, it's not like Kabuto was helping Orochimaru at all...:



And the villainous Rival never exaggerates:


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 14, 2015)

But that was Sasuke shit talking before they even fought.

Orochimaru and Jiraiya go way back.

Fallacious comparison.


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## Trojan (Jul 14, 2015)

When Jiraiya fought against Oro the first time, it was in order to bring him back to konoha. Not to kill him.
The Second time all the Sannin were ridiculously handicapped. And Jiraiya was not really "defeated" 

Regardless, Hiruzen was searching for Jiraiya because he believe that Jiraiya can take him on. 

Regardless of all of that, this whole Itachi > Oro, therefore he is > Jiraiya is utterly retarded to be honest, and a 
proof that the other side can't really prove jack when it comes to Itachi Vs Jiraiya. 

You might as well say Lee > Hashirama, because he fodderstompped the fuck out of Madara, when Hashirama
needed his full might to barely draw!


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## StickaStick (Jul 14, 2015)

Really who the hell cares if Jiraiya and Oro are portrayed as rivals. Foremost, being rivals in and of itself doesn't mean jack (unless someone wants to argue MS Kakashi > 7th-Gate Gai). 

Furthermore, it completely ignores match-up considerations. Itachi can shitstomp Oro because something like Totsuka completely bypasses what makes Oro tough to kill and a difficult fight while Jiraiaya possesses no readily available ability that can achieve a similar result. However, Jiraiya _is _infinitely better suited to fight someone like an Itachi than Oro is. For example, Oro has no way of readily breaching Susano'O while Jiraiya (particularly while in SM) possesses several methods of doing so. Oro can't as easily fight Itachi without avoiding eye-contract while Jiraiya has Sage-Sensing and sensing barrier. And again, Sage-Sensing is an ideal way of dealing with Ama as it allows one to sense chakra build-up in the users eye and pre-empt its use; Oro possesses no such readily available method of doing the same. 

And so on and so on.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jul 14, 2015)

What I get is ppl like to be Feat-whores when it suits their point. 

Oh well.


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## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru on the other hand is primarily focused on Snake Arts, and unlike Jiriaya he can't use the greatest Snake Art, Sennin Modo. Additionally his other skills outside Snake Arts do not measure up to Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and Senpo Tehcniques.



Toad arts? Snake arts? What the hell are those? You're just making shit up in an attempt to create a comparison. 

Sage Mode itself is indeed a stronger jutsu (imo) than anything snake related that Orochimaru possesses, but those techniques don't require a time-consuming summoning ritual.

To me that evens out, but that's just an opinion. There's nothing factual placing J-man over or under Orochimaru.



Turrin said:


> WSM and PI-Edo-Tensei are nowhere near Jiraiya's Sennin Modo and Senpo Techniques in strength. Fukasaku and Shima alone are way more powerful than those Tensei, and Orochimaru is actually weaker in WSM in most situations because he can't use Jutsu.



The Edo Tensei were hit hard by power inflation. They're still Kage level, so Fukasaku & Shima being far above them in power is _completely_ baseless. _Any_ immortal, regenerating zombie Kage levels with infinite stamina would give the frog sages a run for their money, let alone Hashirama & Tobirama.



Turrin said:


> Itachi stating Jiriaya is >= to him, while he beat Orochimaru. Nagato saying Jiraiya could beat Pain under the right conditions. Kakashi thinking Jiraiya's accomplishment against Pain is insane. Minato calling Jiriaya the finest Shinboi he knows. His Mission record and stats being better than Orochimaru. etc....




Itachi didn't say that Jiraiya was slightly stronger than him. Itachi was predicting the result of a fight, which means that match-up & circumstances need to be considered. 
And how do we know that Orochimaru cannot beat Pain "under the right conditions?" 
What does Kakashi's praise have to do with Orochimaru? 
Does Minato know Orochimaru?

Jiraiya has _more_ generic "hype" than Orochimaru does because Jiraiya was featured more in the story. But how is his hype _better?_



Turrin said:


> No a handicapped Orochimaru w/ the help of Kabuto bested a handicapped Jiraiya momentarily. Otherwise the fight would have ended w/ Yomi Numa.



He didn't _need_ Kabuto's help. He's got the Hydra transformation thing he can do while armless, and that would have steamrolled drugged Jiraiya.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 15, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> What are your thoughts?



Well, ability-wise there wouldn't necessarily be any difference.

The result of Jiraiya vs. Nagato's Six Paths of Pain came down to when Nagato decided to employ each of the Pain bodies.

Gamarinshō is a technique that, due to being sound-based, would have affected all six Pains just like it affected three (provided that all six had been summoned by Animal Pain earlier) and Jiraiya would have won the fight in that case.

So skill-wise, the matchup between Jiraiya and Itachi could be the same then as it is now.


There might be a difference _just in the impression certain posters get about Jiraiya_, but one would think a better impression of Jiraiya's strength would most likely just incentivize Itachi's supporters to say even more adamantly that Itachi could beat him, because if Itachi could beat Jiraiya and Jiraiya is actually more impressive than he was initially perceived to be that's just even better for Itachi, isn't it?


Feat wise Itachi could still beat him.

Hype wise he still could, too, because pretty much from the start:


 The Prodigal Three were indicated to be on equal footing and Orochimaru admitted that Itachi had grown stronger than even he was.
 In Itachi and Kisame's initial conversation the swordsman made it clear that he thought Itachi at least _could_ beat Jiraiya (_"even if you _[Itachi]_ might be able to take him on"_).

That wouldn't have necessarily been contradicted given that Jiraiya had actually beat Nagato.

So I think the answer to your thread question is emphatically _"yes, they would"_.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> it was in order to bring him back to konoha. Not to kill him.


Just like Naruto vs Sasuke @ VOTE.
And that fight gave us a clear indicator that they were more or less equals regardless of Naruto's intentions. 

Orochimaru implied that they weren't equals though. He implied that he was stronger, and then he proceeded to defeat Jiraiya. 
Nothing contradicts what he said to this day.



> The Second time all the Sannin were ridiculously handicapped. And Jiraiya was not really "defeated"


He was actually knocked out briefly. If Orochimaru had gone for him instead of going for Naruto, Jiraiya would be dead.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 15, 2015)

Not sure why we're discussing a Part 1 battle, Jiraiya's feats in Part 2 transcend anything he ever did PTS.

He's stronger than Armless Orochimaru and Sick Itachi. 

Feats prove this, anyone who puts their confidence in Part 1 quotes or handicap battles over Part 2 Jiraiya's feats is refusing to accept reality, which is hilarious.


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## Turrin (Jul 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Toad arts? Snake arts? What the hell are those? You're just making shit up in an attempt to create a comparison.


Jiraiya's style is focused around his utilization of Toads. Orochimaru's style is focused around his utilization of Snakes. And If you don't think they are meant to be compared in that regard, your being dishonest with yourself.



> Sage Mode itself is indeed a stronger jutsu (imo) than anything snake related that Orochimaru possesses, but those techniques don't require a time-consuming summoning ritual.
> .


Cool and I think more often than not Jiraiya will have the time he needs to enter Sennin Modo.



> To me that evens out, but that's just an opinion. There's nothing factual placing J-man over or under Orochimaru.


I never claimed it could be. You asked me for my opinion on why Jiraiya was stronger than P1-Orochimaru, and I gave it to you. The fact of the matter is almost every discussion in the NBD, can't be 100% factually proven, because rarely do we have a direct statement of inferiority or one character being beaten straight up under fair conditions in the manga. So outside mismatches like Kaguya vs Tenten, almost always were talking about opinion. 



> The Edo Tensei were hit hard by power inflation.


Given how strong Edo-Tobirama and Edo-Hashirama were actually shown to be in P1, Fukasaku and Shima would rape them. You saying, but they were victims of power-scaling and making up an entirely new "power-level" for them, is nothing but fanfiction. Yes they were screwed by power-scaling, but Kishi justifies that not by increasing their abilities to PII standards, but by having it stated that Orochimaru's PI-Edo-Tensei was garbage relative to PII-Edo-Tensei. 



> hey're still Kage level, so Fukasaku & Shima being far above them in power is completely baseless. Any immortal, regenerating zombie Kage levels with infinite stamina would give the frog sages a run for their money, let alone Hashirama & Tobirama.


They are probably not Kage level, due to being weakened, unless there were some really fucking weak Kages among the ones we haven't seen. What I can say is that a Jonin like Yamato out performed Edo-Hashirama and plenty of Jonin have out performed Edo-Tobirama. Jonin that would get spanked by SM-Jiraiya, SM-Fukasaku, SM-Shima. 



> Itachi didn't say that Jiraiya was slightly stronger than him. Itachi was predicting the result of a fight, which means that match-up & circumstances need to be considered.


The entire dialog was framed within the context of levels, by Kisame talking about his own level being to far bellow Itachi and Jiraiya's. There was also no suggestion by Itachi or anyone else that this was a matter of match up. So while we can't 100% rule out the possibility, imo it's reaching.



> And how do we know that Orochimaru cannot beat Pain "under the right conditions?"


You asked me where does Jiriaya have better hype than Orochimaru. I gave you this as an example. You coming back and saying well maybe Orochimaru could win or you think Orochimaru could win, is a moot point, because Orochimaru didn't receive that hype from Nagato. So this still stands as Jiraiya receiving a more notable hype statement in the manga than Orochimaru, regardless of how you personally believe Orochimaru could perform.



> What does Kakashi's praise have to do with Orochimaru?


It's a better hype statement than Orochimaru has gotten.



> Does Minato know Orochimaru?


Please dude 



> Jiraiya has more generic "hype" than Orochimaru does because Jiraiya was featured more in the story. But how is his hype better?


Because it's better than hype Orochimaru received. Where is the Itachi level Ninja saying that at best he could draw with Orochimaru. Where is the Pain level Ninja saying he'd probably lost w/o his secret? Where is the Pain-Arc Kakashi level Ninja that is dumbfounded by Orochimaru's skills? Where is the shinobi of Minato's stature saying there is no better Shinobi than Orochimaru? 



> He didn't need Kabuto's help. He's got the Hydra transformation thing he can do while armless, and that would have steamrolled drugged Jiraiya.


Okay assuming he could do Yamata no Orochi while armless and freshly weakened from just having his soul ripped, than Orochimaru's handicapp was much less severe than Jiraiya's, in which case your point is completely moot.


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## Rocky (Jul 15, 2015)

I'll make a thread. ^ It's probably better than derailing this one with a quote war.


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## Kai (Jul 15, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Indeed what a fair match it was between just Jiraiya and Orochimaru, it's not like Kabuto was helping Orochimaru at all...:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Jiraiya's chakra was recovering throughout the fight. Kabuto was needed to assist by the time J-man recovered enough of himself to summon the boss Gama.

As you recall, when the fight started Jiraiya could only summon Gamatatsu. Way different from the end of the fight.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not sure why we're discussing a Part 1 battle, Jiraiya's feats in Part 2 transcend anything he ever did PTS.
> 
> He's stronger than Armless Orochimaru and Sick Itachi.
> 
> Feats prove this, anyone who puts their confidence in Part 1 quotes or handicap battles over Part 2 Jiraiya's feats is refusing to accept reality, which is hilarious.



You said it so it must be true.


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## Trojan (Jul 15, 2015)

> [=Grimmjowsensei;53992606]Just like Naruto vs Sasuke @ VOTE.
> And that fight gave us a clear indicator that they were more or less equals regardless of Naruto's intentions.


Naruto fought the 5 sounds Ninja before he got to Sasuke. He got attacked, and his chakra got sucked. 

Also, Naruto was able to use his summoning jutsu and fodderstomps the living fuck out of Sasuke. He, however, was never allowed to use said jutsu. 




> Orochimaru implied that they weren't equals though. He implied that he was stronger, and then he proceeded to defeat Jiraiya.  Nothing contradicts what he said to this day.


Just like how Sasuke does all the time? Just like how itachi flat out stated he is inferior to Jiraiya
which you don't want to admit?



> He was actually knocked out briefly. If Orochimaru had gone for him instead of going for Naruto, Jiraiya would be dead.[



No. 
Oro only got Jiraiya because Jiraiya was trying to go and help them. Had it not been for that, he wouldn't have been knocked out in the first place. 

It's just like when itachi fans put the excuse "he was protecting Sasuke from Kabuto's attack"
(Even tho Kabuto never attacked Sasuke in the first place) Same stuff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto fought the 5 sounds Ninja before he got to Sasuke. He got attacked, and his chakra got sucked.



Naruto mentioned no concern about his chakra or stamina levels, so it is irrelevant. Also at the start of the fight Kyuubi's power would have completely refreshed him, even if he was out of chakra by the time he met Sasuke.

I mean, Kyuubi's power closed a giant hole in his chest, superfiicial wounds he sustained beforehand(I don't remember any) would pose no issiues.



> Also, Naruto was able to use his summoning jutsu and fodderstomps the living fuck out of Sasuke. He, however, was never allowed to use said jutsu.


Gamabunta doesn't represent Naruto's power, and if  you believe if Gamabunta could fodder stomp Sasuke then he could fodder stomp Naruto as well. So if Naruto summoned Gamabunta and if he somehow defeated Sasuke then Naruto would get no credit for it.

But sure, if you think Orochimaru and Jiraiya have a summon that can fodder stomp either one of them, be my guest and make a similar case.



> Just like how Sasuke does all the time?


Sasuke was superior through out the most of the manga. And Orochimaru mentioned that he was stronger and then defeated Jiraiya, so tell me, where is the contradiction in that ?



> Just like how itachi flat out stated he is inferior to Jiraiya
> which you don't want to admit?


There is nothing to admit about that, Itachi was lying. 



> No.
> Oro only got Jiraiya because Jiraiya was trying to go and help them. Had it not been for that, he wouldn't have been knocked out in the first place.


Conjecture.



> It's just like when itachi fans put the excuse "he was protecting Sasuke from Kabuto's attack"
> (Even tho Kabuto never attacked Sasuke in the first place) Same stuff.



Jiraiya didn't put himself infront of Naruto to protect him, Tsunade did that. You can compare Tsunade to Itachi in that sense, not Jiraiya.

Actually Jiraiya ran after Orochimaru when he saw him make his move, and Orochimaru simply put Jiraiya down before Jiraiya could intercept him. Jiraiya was going after Orochimaru.


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## Turrin (Jul 16, 2015)

Kai said:


> Jiraiya's chakra was recovering throughout the fight. Kabuto was needed to assist by the time J-man recovered enough of himself to summon the boss Gama.
> 
> As you recall, when the fight started Jiraiya could only summon Gamatatsu. Way different from the end of the fight.


Kabuto assisted Orochimaru before Jiraiya could summon Gamabunta, by summoning those large snakes. Does this seem fair to you:




Like you said Jiraiya could only summon Gamakichi due to his handicap, while Kabuto summoned two massive snakes for Orochimaru.


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