# Darui vs. Sound 5



## Kai (Aug 9, 2013)

Location: Kumogakure
Distance: 25 meters
Knowledge: Full on both sides
Restrictions: None. Darui has the Benihisago (Crimson Gourd).

Who takes this?

Note: If it's a stomp for S5, throw in C with Darui.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 9, 2013)

Tayuya and Kidomaru destroy him while the rest take their tea


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## Alex Payne (Aug 9, 2013)

With Kimimaro here S4 are safe from getting blitzed. They can support him with their-long range abilities freely. Kimimaro by himself is a high-diff fight(debatable lose) for Darui. Either Tayuya or Kidomaru by themselves can assure Kimi's victory. 

Crimson Gourd is useless due to full knowledge.

With C - Darui can kill S4 after initial Raigen Raikocho and beat Kimimaro with continuous genjutsu spam.


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## Dil (Aug 9, 2013)

Kimimaro rapes Darui by himself.


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## Veracity (Aug 9, 2013)

Kimmi cannot beat Darui nor can Tayuya and Kidomaru.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 9, 2013)

Darui is a f******* general. Any general can defeat the sound 5 with mid to high diff.

His black lighting would one shoot any of the sound 5 bar Kimimaro.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

Kimimaro can beat Darui imo. But C is pretty amazing support, and will allow Darui to knock out the Sound 4 and eventually take down Kimimaro by continually using mass genjutsu.​


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> But C is pretty amazing support, and will allow Darui to knock out the Sound 4 and eventually take down Kimimaro by continually using mass genjutsu.​



Genjutsu is massively overrated, imo.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

Shut your whore mouth. Imo.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Shut your whore mouth. Imo.



Tayuya soloes.

Curse seal substitutes for Kabuto's Sage Mode. Sage Mode is stronger? Yes, but Itachi & Sasuke and indefinitely harder to hold than Darui and C.

Tayuya so soloes. She soloes long and hard and all night, until the Kumo duo have each digested a liter of her solo.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 9, 2013)

Darui stomps.

Laser Circus critically injuries everyone in the Sound 5 simultaneously except for Kimimaro; Darui can follow that up with Black Panther and wipe out everyone with the exception of Kimimaro again.

Darui can keep using his Ninjutsu from a comfortable distance without giving Kimimaro a chance to attack him. If he runs out of chakra before he manages to finish Kimimaro off, he can handle the rest at close-range with his Raiton-covered sword; Kimimaro won't be in a condition to do much of anything about it.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Darui can keep using his Ninjutsu from a comfortable distance without giving Kimimaro a chance to attack him. If he runs out of chakra before he manages to finish Kimimaro off, he can handle the rest at close-range with his Raiton-covered sword; Kimimaro won't be in a condition to do much of anything about it.



The problem arises when you realize Kimimaro can slap his palms on the ground and turn the battlefield into a hellzone of 10ft bones.


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## Veracity (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The problem arises when you realize Kimimaro can slap his palms on the ground and turn the battlefield into a hellzone of 10ft bones.



Then Darui jumps out of the AoE of the Justu.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The problem arises when you realize Kimimaro can slap his palms on the ground and turn the battlefield into a hellzone of 10ft bones.





Likes boss said:


> Then Darui jumps out of the AoE of the Justu.



^This.

Darui just dodges it like the Uchiha Bros. would have if Kabuto hadn't blocked their escape route with Kumo Nenkin (which means Kabuto tacitly understood they could do it).


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2013)

Darui will jump and land on Bones. They come out of the ground where he has to stand.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2013)

Darui blitz kills a few as soon as the match starts. Then proceeds to rape the rest.

Black lightning, raiton sword, laser circus are shit sound 4 have no answers to.

Lol Kimi, GL blocking that sword with your bones.


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## Dil (Aug 9, 2013)

Darui has no defense against the Bracken Dance, where is he going to jump to? Nowhere, he will just die. We’ve seen Kimimaro take much more damage than Laser circus when he got crushed by gaara’s sand techniques and still managing to survive. Black Panther has no chance, all it did was electrocute some zetsus and they aren’t even durable + the technique was used in water, that won’t even make a dent to Kimimaro.

Only thing Darui has a chance with is his Raiton cleaver but then he will have to get close to Kimimaro and force a Taijutsu battle, where Kimimaro will just smash him into pieces. He handled drunk Lee in Taijutsu and Gai was even afraid of him. Kimimaro is very underestimated here.


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## Veracity (Aug 9, 2013)

Dil said:


> Darui has no defense against the Bracken Dance, where is he going to jump to? Nowhere, he will just die. We?ve seen Kimimaro take much more damage than Laser circus when he got crushed by gaara?s sand techniques and still managing to survive. Black Panther has no chance, all it did was electrocute some zetsus and they aren?t even durable + the technique was used in water, that won?t even make a dent to Kimimaro.
> 
> Only thing Darui has a chance with is his Raiton cleaver but then he will have to get close to Kimimaro and force a Taijutsu battle, where Kimimaro will just smash him into pieces. He handled drunk Lee in Taijutsu and Gai was even afraid of him. Kimimaro is very underestimated here.



Why are you comparing drunken lee to Darui? Darui had he speed to keep pace with v1 Ay, the golden brothers, and managed to intercept Sasuke in mid dash. He's also often compared to Kakashi. Drunken lee is an extremely terrible comparison. They aren't even close in ability. 

OTarui with lighting enhanced swordplay can deal with Kimmi without much problem. D has the speed and versatility advantage by a long shot. Kimmi isn't much of a threat.


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## Dil (Aug 9, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Why are you comparing drunken lee to Darui? Darui had he speed to keep pace with v1 Ay, the golden brothers, and managed to intercept Sasuke in mid dash. He's also often compared to Kakashi. Drunken lee is an extremely terrible comparison. They aren't even close in ability.
> 
> OTarui with lighting enhanced swordplay can deal with Kimmi without much problem. D has the speed and versatility advantage by a long shot. Kimmi isn't much of a threat.



If you read I was comparing Darui in a close range Taijutsu match against Kimimaro where Darui would get raped. Darui hasn't got any Taijutsu feats and thats why I mentioned drunk Lee because Kimimaro handled drunk Lee in a taijutsu match with his own Taijutsu, so Darui's little sword play won't do jack shit to Kimimaro with his dances.


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## Chad (Aug 9, 2013)

Kimimaro solos lol. The Oto 5 should not be underestimated.


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## Tragic (Aug 9, 2013)

Lol @ this thread.

Kimmi takes this alone. Adding Kidomaru just further solidifies this already brutal rape. Adding anyone else on top of that is unneeded. 

C makes no difference. Matter of fact, with his piss poor feats, it'll be shocking if he can even beat Tayuya.


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## Kai (Aug 10, 2013)

Except C can put Tayuya in his genjutsu before Tayuya can put him in hers.


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## Chad (Aug 10, 2013)

People are disregarding Jirobo's doton that can absorb chakra.


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## Kai (Aug 10, 2013)

Doton? Against Darui?


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## Chad (Aug 10, 2013)

If Darui gets caught in Jirobo's dome, he can't knead chakra for Raiton of Gale. He would need physical strength as much as Kiba and Choji combined to break out of earth dome.


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## Kai (Aug 10, 2013)

The dome never stopped any of the Leaf Genin from performing ninjutsu on the walls and leaving damage impressions on those walls.

Against Darui's Black Panther, Jirobo's dome won't hold for a second.


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## Chad (Aug 10, 2013)

Oh really now?


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 10, 2013)

Darui can even use the Sage's treasures without draining all his chakra, Jirobo's meh dome is far from that......


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## Chad (Aug 10, 2013)

^So does Darui have more chakra than all of the Sasuke retrieval team?


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 10, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> ^So does Darui have more chakra than all of the Sasuke retrieval team?



If excluding Naruto, I will say yes. The rookies have far worse chakra control than Darui that they can't perform jutsu efficiently but just wasting chakra......


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 10, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Kimimaro solos lol. The Oto 5 should not be underestimated.



No one is under estimating them. If something you are over estimating them. The 4 of them together were barely able to defeat 2 jounins that weren't powerful enough to be considered captains in the alliance.

Darui is a general.

Kimimaro would have been a jounin, on Asuma's level or maybe a little above if he was healthy, but not only he wasn't healthy, but also Darui is above Asuma's level.



Bluenote said:


> ^So does Darui have more chakra than all of the Sasuke retrieval team?



Of course.

Darui is a chakra monster, not on Bijuu, Raikage, Kisame level, but a monster nevertheless. 

Darui used his black panther to kill dozens of Zetsus, and then fought to chakra monsters like Kin-Gin brothers. He even use Sage weapons. And then he could still fight against Tobi and the Gedo Mazo.

Darui is faster, stronger, more durable, has more chakra, more powerful jutsus and is a better fighter than any of the Sound 5, Kimimaro included.

His kuro raiton and lanton would one shoot any of the sound 5 bar Kimimaru.

And 1 vs 1 Darui wins against Kimimaro with mid diff at most.


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## Chad (Aug 10, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Of course.
> 
> Darui is a chakra monster, not on Bijuu, Raikage, Kisame level, but a monster nevertheless.
> 
> ...



No, Darui is not a chakra monster. Naruto alone has more chakra than Darui, let alone Naruto, Neji, Choji, Shikamaru and Kiba combined.

That doesn't suggest that he has more chakra than the entire retrieval team combined.

No Darui is not faster, stronger or more durable or has more chakra than a healthy Kimimaro. Base Rock Lee has faster speed feats than Darui, and Base Kimimaro is even faster than First Gate Lee. As for durability, Kimimaro can survive being under 200m of sand. Do you know how much pressure that is? Darui would be crushed from that pressure. Kimimaro could survive that due to his instant regeneration and his highly durable bones that could even withstand chakra blades. His Kekkei Genkai allows him to replace bones instantly, that's how fast he can regenerate. His regeneration is above if not on par with Tsunade. As for strength, he was able to dig up from 200m of sand pressure in less than a few seconds. Darui obviously cannot do that.

Black Lightning or Gale Style is useless against Kimimaro's regeneration.

Hopefully you didn't forget that D rank doton was able to fend off against the Juubi's Country level Bijuudama. 1 Earth Wall from Jirobo is enough to withstand Kuro Panther or Gale style. Kuro Panther and Gale Style even lack feats of DC.

Even by author portrayal, Kimimaro is far above Darui. Darui is a good match for part 1 Kakashi. Part 1 Kakashi is supposed to be weaker or equal to part 1 Kabuto. Part 1 Kabuto admitted himself that Kimimaro is above himself. By author portrayal, Healthy Kimimaro >>>>> Darui.


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## Ghost (Aug 10, 2013)

Raiton rape the S4 and Suiton + Raiton on Kimimaro.


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## Chad (Aug 10, 2013)

^Mugen Onsa


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

Kimimaro solos with bracken dance. He doesn't even need to kill them with it . If they avoid it. Kimimaro enters the bones and fights like that. C won't be able to sense him coming and neither can waste time destroying random bones. Also they won't know to do that on the first attack kimimaro launches. 

Adding the sound 4 is unfair. They stomp!! Hard!! 
Ps: kimimaro pawns darui in CQC . We have already seen his base bones can block
Chakra enhanced blades. Mifune chakra blade didn't break when it collide with sasuke chidoi sword
Therefore samurai blade = ration enhanced blade which is = to kimimaro base bones

Nothing says it isn't IC for kimimaro to use bracken dance if he feels the need to. He did after all use it against fodder samurai. 

Lastly Tayuya genjutsu pawns !!

*please note kid cursed seal jugo was able to react to Ei attack though he lost quickly. Kimimaro can dispatch jugo just as easily. Also V1 A is faster and stronger than darui. Jugo is a chakra monster as C said , Ei felt jugo was enough of a threat to attack jugo first despite sasuke being there. Jugo was even hyped by Nagato . Yet kimimaro can dispatch jugo with unnatural ease. Healthy kimimaro was said to be stronger than part 1 kakashi this puts him at the very least on darui level . Adding the other 4 is a stomp. Tayuya genjutsu will be a nightmare for the duo. Kidomaru webs can't be cut by either. Lastly if sakon touches either it's GG*


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 10, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> No, Darui is not a chakra monster. Naruto alone has more chakra than Darui, let alone Naruto, Neji, Choji, Shikamaru and Kiba combined.



Genin Naruto has less chakra than pre time skip Kakashi. Darui has more chara than Kakashi, by far. 



Bluenote said:


> No Darui is not faster



lol When has Kimimaro reacted to anyone on the level of a V2 Jinchuuriki,  or the Gedo Mazo?


Bluenote said:


> , stronger


Sending Ginkaku, a ninja tiers above Kimimaro, flying doesn't saw any strenght?


Bluenote said:


> or more durable or has more chakra than a healthy Kimimaro.



A drunk Genin was owning Kimimaro, quit the waning.



Bluenote said:


> Base Rock Lee has faster speed feats than Darui



That's plain stupid. If you think that base genin Lee, who was on par with Kimimaro on speed, is even near Asuma's level of speed you should try to reading easier to understand mangas.


Bluenote said:


> , and Base Kimimaro is even faster than First Gate Lee.


No


Bluenote said:


> As for durability, Kimimaro can survive being under 200m of sand.


True, Kimimaro is more durable than Darui, and that's all he got over Darui.


Bluenote said:


> His regeneration is above if not on par with Tsunade.


No, just no, stop reading the manga, try something easier.



Bluenote said:


> Black Lightning or Gale Style is useless against Kimimaro's regeneration.



False.



Bluenote said:


> Hopefully you didn't forget that D rank doton was able to fend off against the Juubi's Country level Bijuudama. 1 Earth Wall from Jirobo is enough to withstand Kuro Panther or Gale style. Kuro Panther and Gale Style even lack feats of DC.



Really, keep reading FT and stop reading Naruto, It's too much for you.



Bluenote said:


> Even by author portrayal, Kimimaro is far above Darui. Darui is a good match for part 1 Kakashi. Part 1 Kakashi is supposed to be weaker or equal to part 1 Kabuto. Part 1 Kabuto admitted himself that Kimimaro is above himself. By author portrayal, Healthy Kimimaro >>>>> Darui.




Part 1 Kakashi would rape Kimimaro. Asuma would win against Kimimaro.
Darui is a general, he is above Asuma and sightly below Kakashi (bar Kamui).

Kimimaro was portrayed to be a Jounin level. Not even high jounin level. He had great potential, but Genin Naruto, Genin Lee and Genin Gaara were enough to take him down, no one of those can hope to touch Darui.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Genin Naruto has less chakra than pre time skip Kakashi. Darui has more chara than Kakashi, by far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You sound real passionate and all but perhaps you should try reading easier to understand mangas
Please do a poll if you need to. Ask who is faster rock lee genin or asuma ? Rock lee as a genin has far better speed feats, his entire style revolves around speed. Assuming asuma is faster simply because he is a Jounin is just false. 

On to darui, darui regardless of being faster than kimimaro or not will not help him best kimimaro in CQC. Ration blade gets casually blocked ( refer to my last post) 
Kimimaro fightin style is far more unpredictable and lastly neither gale style or any of darui jutsu 
Have any decent feats . Kinkaku in base merely got pushed back by gale style. Kimimaro is far far more durable than kinkaku when kinkaku is in base. 

Darui has no answer to bracken dance ! Jumping away is fine but how far or high can he get in 1 jump . Kimimaro covered an entire forest in seconds !!  That's easily on par with birth of trees AoE
You going to tell me darui can avoid such by jumping ???
Also avoiding the bones isn't the only thing , kimimaro can merge with the bones and continue his assault. Darui will have no way of tracking him 

Lets not forget the remaining sound 4 like kidomaru who would make it
Impossible for darui to escape bracken dance by cutting off his escape route


That same tactic forced much much better ninja into using susanoo and Amaterasu 
Both are techniques far far far above anything darui has


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 10, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> You sound real passionate and all but perhaps you should try reading easier to understand mangas
> Please do a poll if you need to. Ask who is faster rock lee genin or asuma ? Rock lee as a genin has far better speed feats, his entire style revolves around speed. Assuming asuma is faster simply because he is a Jounin is just false.



Genin Neji not only reacted to Genin Lee, he could own him easily.

The very same Genin Neji was blitzed by Kurenai 
shock even Nagato and which could only be blocked at the last second
shock even Nagato and which could only be blocked at the last second

Darui's speed > Asuma's speed > Kurenai's speed > Neji's reaction speed > Genin Lee's speed.

And please, don't bring popularity fallacy as a valid proof.
And if you don't get that all the genins, bar Gaara, were fodder even to chuunins, then you should re read the manga.



Icegaze said:


> On to darui, darui regardless of being faster than kimimaro or not will not help him best kimimaro in CQC. Ration blade gets casually blocked ( refer to my last post)


Because all the raitons are equal, aren't they?
 Kirin= random samurai's raiton blade

Obviously Darui's raiton is way above some random samurai's one.



Icegaze said:


> Kimimaro fightin style is far more unpredictable and lastly neither gale style or any of darui jutsu
> Have any decent feats . Kinkaku in base merely got pushed back by gale style. Kimimaro is far far more durable than kinkaku when kinkaku is in base.





Kimimaro's durability is a joke compared to the durability of a V2 Jinchuuriki.

As for the supposed unpredictability of Kimimaro's style  He has 5 dances, he has 5 possible ways to attack.




Icegaze said:


> Darui has no answer to bracken dance !


Killing Kimimaro before he has a chance to use it.
Or even breakung the bones would work, at least It worked when Sasuke did it against Kabuto 




Icegaze said:


> Lets not forget the remaining sound 4 like kidomaru who would make it
> Impossible for darui to escape bracken dance by cutting off his escape route
> That same tactic forced much much better ninja into using susanoo and Amaterasu
> Both are techniques far far far above anything darui has



LOL

Kidomaru will die before he can know what has happen. 

Darui's first attack will kill 4 of the 5, his next attack will kill the last.


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## Veracity (Aug 10, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> No, Darui is not a chakra monster. Naruto alone has more chakra than Darui, let alone Naruto, Neji, Choji, Shikamaru and Kiba combined.
> 
> That doesn't suggest that he has more chakra than the entire retrieval team combined.
> 
> ...



Kimmi faster? Show me some scans. Cause how it's is at this point , Darui shits on Kimmis face in speed.


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## EnergySage (Aug 10, 2013)

I know we've seen Darui intercept a strike from Kinkaku at the last moment., and follow it up with his lasers. He can near seemlessly mold his CQC and Ninjutsu abilities.

He was fast enough to intercept Sasuke's dash, and fight in tandem with V1 Ei. If you think any of the Sound 4 are that fast, there's an issue


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Genin Neji not only reacted to Genin Lee, he could own him easily.
> 
> The very same Genin Neji was blitzed by Kurenai
> intercept Sasuke's dash
> ...



it took 4 of those jounin to stop neji who wasnt expecting them to interfere. What they did is the equivalent to an ambush. if you call that a blitz then you sir need to have someone read and the explain each panel to you. 

what your again obviously failling to understand is that being physically faster than someone by even a large margin doesnt stop them from being able to react to you.  Gated rock lee is much faster than kimimaro. it didnt stop him from being trolled by kimimaro abilities. 

you say kimimaro style isnt unpredictable because he has 5 dances hence 5 attacks right?

darui has- gale style
- raiton blade
-black lighting 
- water technique ( only good for pushing a person back)
- raiton channeling 
 so darui has just as many however 1 of those 2 of those are useless against kimimaro 

also you would have to prove that the fodder samurai chakra blade are inferior to daruis, no such statements or portrayls have been made. I can easily say sasuke chidori blade far exceeds darui and thats why mifune didnt cut it.  

your fish brain syndrome makes me laugh though i wont lie. You seem to forget that when sasuke blocked the fodder samurai chakra blades, he deflected them and didnt cut them in half 

The all genins were fodder to their sensei is entirely false, that implies that kurenai can beat gated rock lee or can best neji in CQC, something we know she cant do. Neji would also troll her genjutsu thanks to his eyes (please read the manga on this, byakugan can see through genjutsu. Ask kakashi, read the chapter tobi appears in front of konoha team )  No doubt the sensei were better however assuming they would troll them is simply incorrect. neji jukken can still kill kurenai regardless of her status. jounin organs arent stronger than genin organs 

i said kimimaro durability exceeds kinkaku base durability quite obviously you cant read. 
also darui said he had no way to bypass V2, lastly you have no idea how durable v2 kinkaku is. So saying kimimaro durability is far inferior is pure BS bias 

what stops kimimaro from using bracken dance off the bat??? darui is suppose to break bones that appear under him??  

yh darui will dodge this or jump away or cut them   read the DB information on it then look at this panel closely then look at the forest and how huge it was before kimimaro did that. 
intercept Sasuke's dash

He was 200m buried deep just so you know. He busted through gaara sand and yet, you didnt see rock lee or gaara attempting to jump out of the way because that is just foolish 

ps: kimimaro cursed seal control was on par with sasuke , so partial transformations, moving in an out of cursed seal mode is somethign kimimaro can do


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## Veracity (Aug 10, 2013)

EnergySage said:


> I know we've seen Darui intercept a strike from Kinkaku at the last moment., and follow it up with his lasers. He can near seemlessly mold his CQC and Ninjutsu abilities.
> 
> He was fast enough to intercept Sasuke's dash, and fight in tandem with V1 Ei. If you think any of the Sound 4 are that fast, there's an issue



This. Bluenote had the nerve to say PTS Base Lee has better speed feats then D. A freaking War general. He needs to GTFO.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

^ i agreed with bluenote on a level and i take it back. Darui speed however doesnt suddenly mean he can blitz the likes of kimimaro who has never really relied on speed to start with. However fights on the counter attack and is quite agile and acrobatic. Darui has better speed feats than hidan, it doesnt stop hidan from being able to beat him in CQC. 
kimimaro is even more difficult than hidan because well darui raiton blade cant and hasnt shown the ability to cut kimimaro bones. Kimi bones cut steel just as easily as a raiton sword. samurai chakra blade have been shown to clash with a chidori blade and not break. samurai blade failed to cut kimi's base bones. Kimimaro bone blades are more durable, CS2 skin is durable. His bones are even more durable in that form. 

implying darui can cut kimimaro is utter none sense. laser circus is featless btw. it merely pushed kinkaku back. chouji meat tank pushed v2 kinkaku back just saying. laser circus isnt all that

ps: saying darui is fast because he intercepted an attack from kinkaku at the last moment is a weak argument because kinkaku hasnt been shown to be all that fast. Not saying kinkaku is slow. 

lastly we have seen kimimaro can adapt to a fighting style as unorthodox as druken fist and can even beat rock lee despite 1st gate rock lee obviously having faster movement speed. 

All there is to fighting isnt movement speed you know. Base genin rock lee has much faster movement speed than neji, it doesnt stop neji from trolling rock lee though.  So skill is also massively important in CQC, as killer bee showed sasuke. 

what killer bee did to sasuke can easily be repeated by kimimaro who can grow bones in more than 7 places, kimimaro only need do back flips and turns and its already dangerous to anyone close. difference here is unless darui channels raiton through his sword, his sword wont even be able to block the attacks. 

*what stops the obviously weaker sound 4 from jumping back and assisting kimi from a distance??? tayuya jumps back and uses genjutsu, sakon, separates with ukon and tries a sneak attack, kidomaru sets up traps etc*


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## Veracity (Aug 10, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> ^ i agreed with bluenote on a level and i take it back. Darui speed however doesnt suddenly mean he can blitz the likes of kimimaro who has never really relied on speed to start with. However fights on the counter attack and is quite agile and acrobatic. Darui has better speed feats than hidan, it doesnt stop hidan from being able to beat him in CQC.
> kimimaro is even more difficult than hidan because well darui raiton blade cant and hasnt shown the ability to cut kimimaro bones. Kimi bones cut steel just as easily as a raiton sword. samurai chakra blade have been shown to clash with a chidori blade and not break. samurai blade failed to cut kimi's base bones. Kimimaro bone blades are more durable, CS2 skin is durable. His bones are even more durable in that form.
> 
> implying darui can cut kimimaro is utter none sense. laser circus is featless btw. it merely pushed kinkaku back. chouji meat tank pushed v2 kinkaku back just saying. laser circus isnt all that
> ...



Because D doesn't necessarily have the speed to instantly blitz Kimmi, but he has the speed to simultaneously blitz al the other member without Kimmi being able to intercept jackshit. Like you just mentioned, Kimmi isn't all that fast, he's just extremely durable and excels in CQC.

D is literally tiers above any of them in speed. Keeping pace with v1 Ay, shits on anything the Sound 5 can even think of.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Because D doesn't necessarily have the speed to instantly blitz Kimmi, but he has the speed to simultaneously blitz al the other member without Kimmi being able to intercept jackshit. Like you just mentioned, Kimmi isn't all that fast, he's just extremely durable and excels in CQC.
> 
> D is literally tiers above any of them in speed. Keeping pace with v1 Ay, shits on anything the Sound 5 can even think of.



base genin rock lee is 5 in speed, which puts him above the likes of asuma
gates boosts this speed even further, yet kimi had no trouble reacting to gated lee speed, he counter attacked casually 
Who says darui attacks the other 4 before attacking kimi who would b in the front lines, given full knowledge??
who says darui is so fast he can defeat all 4 without 2 long range fighters who automatically try to fight at a distance (tayuya and kidomaru)  getting away??

kimimaro is not so slow he cannot intercept darui on 4 different occasions thats just wanking
also he doesnt need to intercept him, if that were impossible he can sling shot his bones.  Also jugo reacted to V1 A, so did suigetsu. Jugo gets trolled by kimimaro on a casually basis which means kimimaro, should at least have reactions on par. ( i hope anywayz ) 

given full knowledge from the offset tayuya and kidomaru will try their hardest to get missing while kimimaro, sakon and jirobo engage. I doubt darui can kill the other 2 engaging without leaving himself open to kimimaro. 

who says kimimaro cares about his team mates so much?? he threatened to kill tayuya for being late, not fault of hers but he didnt care.  kimi can casually decide to bone forest the entire field for the lolz from the get go. 

C is simply fodder and has nothing outside genjutsu to threaten anyone with


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## Veracity (Aug 10, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> base genin rock lee is 5 in speed, which puts him above the likes of asuma
> gates boosts this speed even further, yet kimi had no trouble reacting to gated lee speed, he counter attacked casually
> Who says darui attacks the other 4 before attacking kimi who would b in the front lines, given full knowledge??
> who says darui is so fast he can defeat all 4 without 2 long range fighters who automatically try to fight at a distance (tayuya and kidomaru)  getting away??
> ...



Can I get a scan for Kimmi manhandling Jugo? 

Also was this younger Jugo or a older Jugo?


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

No scan sorry was clearly stated during jugo introduction 
we have no idea how old jugo was but am guessing 3 years younger than his current age

It's just a character statement , kimi hype. Same as asuma being the kings guard 

Point still remains darui has nothing to harm kimimaro with 
While kimimaro can harm darui in several ways


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## EnergySage (Aug 10, 2013)

You are aware that there isn't anywhere in the manga where Raiton blades clash with Samurai chakra blades, except where Sasuke clashes with Mifune. Saying that Raiton is equal to the best of the Samurai tells me that, since Samurai chakra cut into, but not all the way through Kimimaro's bones, Raiton should be able to at least match that


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## Veracity (Aug 10, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> No scan sorry was clearly stated during jugo introduction
> we have no idea how old jugo was but am guessing 3 years younger than his current age
> 
> It's just a character statement , kimi hype. Same as asuma being the kings guard
> ...



So basically this was younger and weaker Jugo. Sorta like comparing Sasuke 3 years ago to now?

So my point still stands. Kimmi doesn't have the speed to intercept a Darui that slashes through his entire team.

So basically it's Kimmi vs D anyway you slice it. Sound 4 are fodder against Darui, while Kimmi can put up some sort of a fight.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

@saikyou hardly a secret now if you talk about it on NF 

@ likes Boss nor does darui have the CQC feats to out do kimi in CQC 

kimi will defeat darui any day of the week, none of darui jutsu have *any feats at all which suggest they will down kimimaro. who even orochimaru says has the most durable body and actually has tanked several techniques which turn normal ninja bodies to mush. * 

sound 4 arent fodder regardless of you trying to down play them. shikamaru is fodder compared to hidan without prep, same way kidomaru is fodder to darui without prep. However with prep both shikamaru and kidomaru can out do those who far outclass them.  darui doesnt have eyes behind his back and arrow to the back would be hard to avoid especially when he is focused on kimimaro who he cant put down 

also bracken dance GG..kimimaro has no reason not to use it. he has full knowledge remember 

darui can be put down by any of kimimaro techniques if darui isnt careful. kimimaro can outright tank darui's attacks and keep it moving 

please note cs2 wing blocked c2, which far exceeds darui fire power. Cs2 skin also blocked steal, so kimimaro skin is already as hard as steal. his base bones are harder than steal. Cs2 increases his bone density and durability. darui would be hard pressed to kill kimimaro, who would just run through his attacks and keep it moving. 

worst comes to worst forest level AoE bracken dance GG 

saying darui can beat kimimaro is simply very very false. kimimaro style relies on counter attack. makes it alot ease to react to someone faster if you playing on counter attack.

*Mods please note this statement is ban worthy please ban him: From saikyou 
What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

*


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## Axiom (Aug 10, 2013)

I hope nobody took Saikyou seriously when he said that.  That's pretty famous copypasta :X

On topic, I don't think it's accurate to say Darui can just walk right past Kimi and blitz the sound four.  Kimi's got a 4.5 in speed in the DB if memory serves, and turning your back to him is probably a really terrible idea.  If Darui does manage to take out the four without Kimi stopping him, then Darui should go on to take down Kimi high diff, but if he lets Kimi keep the S4 as support, he's gonna get webbed or sniped or genjutsu'd and Kimi will seal the deal.

Could go either way imo, but I'd give it to the S5 more often that not because I think Kimi is competent enough to not let Darui walk all over the Sound 4 with Kimi standing right in front of them.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

agree with Axiom 
darui cannot just walk past kimi
he shouldnt even be able to beat kimi 1 on 1


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## Csdabest (Aug 10, 2013)

Kimimaro or Tayuya soloes. General or not Darui is just an elite jounin at best. Could be potential Mei-tier kage level. But Kimimaro is a straight up monster who's bones can block chakra blades. Tayuya is an expert at long range genjutsu based on Sound. C as support will just serve to really delay this outcome of this 5 vs 1 or 5 vs 2 match up.


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## jesusjuice69 (Aug 10, 2013)

Sound 5 win this easy.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> it took 4 of those jounin to stop neji who wasnt expecting them to interfere. What they did is the equivalent to an ambush. if you call that a blitz then you sir need to have someone read and the explain each panel to you.



No. 4 Jounin went to stop him, that's not the same as saying 4 jounin were needed to stop him.
And yes, It was a blitz, they moved so fast that Neji couldn't even react to them.

Darui's speed > Asuma's speed > Kurenai's speed = Kimimaro's speed >Neji's reaction speed = Genin Lee's speed > Kidomaru's attacking speed

Darui is way faster than the final boss of the first part. Who btw was defeated by genins.



Icegaze said:


> what your again obviously failling to understand is that being physically faster than someone by even a large margin doesnt stop them from being able to react to you.  Gated rock lee is much faster than kimimaro. it didnt stop him from being trolled by kimimaro abilities.



You mean that Kimimaro was playing with Lee? That the funny Kimimaro, known for his happy attitude and his jokes, didn't try to kill Lee, but instead he played with him?

GTFO

Kimimaro going all out wasn't fast nor deathly enough to kill Genin Lee.

Darui could have killed 30 Genin Lee without sweating.  



Icegaze said:


> you say kimimaro style isnt unpredictable because he has 5 dances hence 5 attacks right?
> 
> darui has- gale style
> - raiton blade
> ...



Which one is useless?
The gale style that is too fast for Kimimaro to react to?
The raiton blade tht would cut Kimimaro's head with easy?
The black lighting that would one shoot him?



Icegaze said:


> also you would have to prove that the fodder samurai chakra blade are inferior to daruis, no such statements or portrayls have been made. I can easily say sasuke chidori blade far exceeds darui and thats why mifune didnt cut it.



No one has ever mention in the manga that Darui wouldn't one shoot Kimimaro, ergo he would. That's your logic.

No one has stated that fodder's jutsus are less powerful than the same jutsu used by a powerful character, but those of us who understand the manga don't need such a statement, we know it.



Icegaze said:


> The all genins were fodder to their sensei is entirely false, that implies that kurenai can beat gated rock lee or can best neji in CQC,


Fodder chuunin were about to kill Shikamaru.
Fodder sound genin owned Lee.

Yeah, the manga made it clear that the genins were a joke to even the chuunins.



Icegaze said:


> something we know she cant do. Neji would also troll her genjutsu thanks to his eyes (please read the manga on this, byakugan can see through genjutsu.



Proof.



Icegaze said:


> Ask kakashi, read the chapter tobi appears in front of konoha team )  No doubt the sensei were better however assuming they would troll them is simply incorrect. neji jukken can still kill kurenai regardless of her status. jounin organs arent stronger than genin organs



Genin Neji is slower than Kurenai, much slower. Kurenai can literally blitz Neji and kill him, like he blitzed him already in the manga.



Icegaze said:


> i said kimimaro durability exceeds kinkaku base durability quite obviously you cant read.
> also darui said he had no way to bypass V2, lastly you have no idea how durable v2 kinkaku is. So saying kimimaro durability is far inferior is pure BS bias



No, you haven't mention base Kinakkaku.

No, Darui never said that he couldn't pass through Kinkkaku's V2 form.

No, saying that someone defeated by 12 and 11 year old genins can defeat the guy who sealed by himself one of the 18 guys that killed Tobirama is bullshit.

Kimimaro was strong by part I standard, he was the final boss for the genins. Someone who at most was jounin level. Darui is one of the 15 strongest shinobi alive and that's why he is one of the 5 generals under the 5 Kages.

You try to make it look as if Kimimaro, the guy genin Naruto, Genin Lee, and Genin Gaara defeted was anywhere close to being a Kage level, when the truth is that the sound 4 were chuunin level, and Kimimaro was jounin level and nothing more. 



Icegaze said:


> what stops kimimaro from using bracken dance off the bat??? darui is suppose to break bones that appear under him??



Because It's not as if Sasuke's Susanoo casually cut them. Or as if the black raiton has been portrayed to be way above Kimimaro's technique, being the 3rd Raikage's ace jutsu.



Icegaze said:


> He was 200m buried deep just so you know. He busted through gaara sand and yet, you didnt see rock lee or gaara attempting to jump out of the way because that is just foolish



Yeah, yeah, genin Gaara has the most destructive attack in the manga and the only one who can tank it is Kimimaro  

He survived or tanked the attack of a genin who may had the level of a top level chuunin. Nothing more.

Kimimaro was defeated by 3 genins. He was meant to be just strong compared to the sound 4 and the genins, he wasn't kage level, he wasn't general level, he wasn't even captain level, he was a jounin level ninja that went up to captain level when using the cursed seal.



Icegaze said:


> ps: kimimaro cursed seal control was on par with sasuke , so partial transformations, moving in an out of cursed seal mode is somethign kimimaro can do



Proofs?



Icegaze said:


> implying darui can cut kimimaro is utter none sense. laser circus is featless btw. it merely pushed kinkaku back. chouji meat tank pushed v2 kinkaku back just saying. laser circus isnt all that



No. Chouji didn't push Kinkkaku back.

Yes, pushing back  2 of the 18 ninjas that killed Tobirama is a feat.



Icegaze said:


> ps: saying darui is fast because he intercepted an attack from kinkaku at the last moment is a weak argument because kinkaku hasnt been shown to be all that fast. Not saying kinkaku is slow.



Saying that dodging a V2 Jinchuuriki with 6 tails isn't an speed feat? GTFO



Icegaze said:


> All there is to fighting isnt movement speed you know. Base genin rock lee has much faster movement speed than neji, it doesnt stop neji from trolling rock lee though.  So skill is also massively important in CQC, as killer bee showed sasuke.



And obviously the 16 years old Kimimaro who was defeated by genins has better technique than the 30 years old General Darui that has fought the KIn Gin legendary ninjas, Tobi, the Gedo Mazo, etc. The guy who is the right hand of the Raikage and a Kage candidate aswell as the general of the first division 

*And don't say that Kimimaro has better taijutsu feats. There's a thing called power scaling applied when a character has been seen much the other. For example, by feats genin Chouji would rape Ao. But common sense, and real understanding of the manga says that Ao can one shoot Chouji. Despite the fact that he hasn't shown a single jutsu, just because we know that he fought Shishui and survived.*



Csdabest said:


> Kimimaro or Tayuya soloes. General or not Darui is just an elite jounin at best. Could be potential Mei-tier kage level. But Kimimaro is a straight up monster who's bones can block chakra blades. Tayuya is an expert at long range genjutsu based on Sound. C as support will just serve to really delay this outcome of this 5 vs 1 or 5 vs 2 match up.



Yeah, yeah, Kimimaro is a top Kage level ninja on par with Hashirama and Madara..., and he wasn't defeated by genins.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No. 4 Jounin went to stop him, that's not the same as saying 4 jounin were needed to stop him.
> And yes, It was a blitz, they moved so fast that Neji couldn't even react to them.
> 
> Darui's speed > Asuma's speed > Kurenai's speed = Kimimaro's speed >Neji's reaction speed = Genin Lee's speed > Kidomaru's attacking speed
> ...



gale style has no feats of damaging anyone
darui other attack either. 
kimimaro has actual tanking feats
darui can do nothing to harm kimimaro. 
the rest of your post 
sandaime ace technique is his hell bringer not black lightning 

its funny how silly people like you think all there is to battle is footspeed. ill give you an example real simple one so even you get it. 

*spiderman footspeed is far far far slower than that of a bullet, however he is able to casually avoid them isnt he? because of his reflexes and his great dexterity. kimimaro doesnt need superior footspeed to any of darui attacks to avoid them. 

another example. Usain bolt footspeed casually trolls mike tyson footspeed, doesnt mean bolt will land 5 punches in a fight against mike before mike is able to react now does it?? Evidence of such is all over the manga. Gaiden kakashi being quite alot faster than the rock nin didnt stop the nin from reacting. The same thing didnt stop jugo or sasuke from reacting against Ei. It didnt stop suigetsu either. Only once  has it happened that someone is sooo fast the enemy is unable to react. That would be when minato tagged obito. hirashin isnt even speed so it makes sense. Ei as fast as he is cannot blitz even asuma with asuma being able to at least see him coming and attempt to put up a guard just to have his guard crushed.   *

sasuke footspeed is still inferior to V1 A, so is jugo footspeed , yet both reacted to V1 A just fine. 

Again show feats of laser circus damaging anyone with superior durability to  kimimaro's go on ill wait a really long time on this one. Or any of darui attacks for that matter. none have been remotely impressive 

you are a simple troll if you think kurenai can run and blitz genin neji then best him in CQC.  i dare you to make such a thread, include a poll. No in fact ill do it.

 Show you how much NF disagrees with you.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> gale style has no feats of damaging anyone


Only damaging Kinkkaku, but I guess you think he is just some random fodder.


Icegaze said:


> darui other attack either.
> kimimaro has actual tanking feats
> darui can do nothing to harm kimimaro.
> the rest of your post
> sandaime ace technique is his hell bringer not black lightning



*Shishui vs Konohamaru
Icegaze's opinion: Konohamaru has one shoot a Pain body, Shishui is featless therefore Konohamaru rapes. *




Icegaze said:


> *spiderman footspeed is far far far slower than that of a bullet, however he is able to casually avoid them isnt he? because of his reflexes and his great dexterity. kimimaro doesnt need superior footspeed to any of darui attacks to avoid them. *


*

His reaction isn't on par with Darui's attacking speed either.


Icegaze said:



			you are a simple troll if you think kurenai can run and blitz genin neji then best him in CQC.  i dare you to make such a thread, include a poll. No in fact ill do it.

 Show you how much NF disagrees with you.
		
Click to expand...


Popularity fallacy. 
Also:

Spoiler:  








In the time Neji moves 1 meter, Kurenai can move 10 and stop him.

You should try to understand the difference between feats and level-tier. Kimimaro has more feats, he has less level. Hatake Sakumo is featless, but he is tiers above Kimimaro.*


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Popularity fallacy doesn't apply to opinions.

How does Kimimaro have less level?  
He isn't ranked from a village.  However, we see him stomp all 4 of the sound ninja, who are easily chunnin level.  We see him on the battlefield with Orochimary fighting Kage level opponents.  Etc...  I think it is safe to assume he is at least jounin level when he is healthy.


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## Hazuki (Aug 11, 2013)

Bluenote said:


> Kimimaro solos lol. The Oto 5 should not be underestimated.



understimated ?

did you forgot that 4 of them were tired and forced to use cs2 just to fight 2 medium juunin very low chakra ??

did you forgot that kimi cs2 even if he was sick at the end , had trouble against genin garaa ? 

i think oto 5 are overstimate , they were strong in front of junnin 

they are weak in front against jounin 

darui , one of the strongest ninja juunin in his village would solo them


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Only damaging Kinkkaku, but I guess you think he is just some random fodder.
> 
> 
> *Shishui vs Konohamaru
> ...



scan of kinkaku being damaged. also kimimaro durability >>>base kinkaku. I dare you to argue otherwise, no feats suggest kinkaku is more durable 

your shunsui example is utter stupidity not surprised though, it is to be expected. 
the fact that hashirama is far above sakura as a ninja doesnt suddenly mean he is better at taijutsu or can hit harder. He doesnt need to do, his ninjutsu level far exceeds anything she will ever have. Hence why he is better. Same for shinsui and his genjutsu, ninjutsu and taijutsu. He doesnt need feats for anyone to know he is above konohamaru *overall* it doesnt mean shinsui is better at using clones or henge or anything konohamaru spends time doing 

popularity fallacy is actually the way of the world 
eg: if you are straight you dont need to justify it or feel the need to
if you are gay for some odd reason, you feel compelled to justify it. 

popular opinion hashirama trolls sakura, so anyone who says otherwise is trolling and is obviously wrong. so yes popular opinion matters, only idiots think otherwise

again a ninja ranking doesnt suddenly mean they can outdo someone in what they specialize in

*naruto is a genin, he trolls kurenai who is a jounin, all day everyday. Same for sasuke. same for gaara when he was a genin etc. *

its like arguing with a wall. you clearly dont understand anything. What the fuck does this mean 
: *His reaction isn't on par with Darui's attacking speed either*  what a dumb dumb

darui can move from point A to B quicker than kimimaro can no one has argued that, that doesnt mean or has no baring on him being able to out do kimimaro in CQC where skill is far more important than who can get from point A to B first. Thats just common sense 

kimimaro is way better adapted and far more skilled in taijutsu. gated lee was also much faster than kimimaro, didnt stop kimimaro from stopping him in his tracks in 1 attack. 

finally if you had any common sense you would know the following 

a rookie at boxing when trying to avoid a hook, leans back and probably looses balance
a pro ducks 
a rookie when dealing with a straight punch tries the same strategy
a poor side steps while protecting the side of his face and goes for the body shot. 

skill is far more important in CQC than foot speed. Its the same reason why neji can troll genin rock lee in taijutsu despite the fact that rock lee is a lot faster. 

how you dont see this is simply  worthy 

again kinkaku in base is certainly not more durable than kimimaro. Rank or not it doesnt suddenly mean kishi chooses to ignore the rules because you do.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> Popularity fallacy doesn't apply to opinions.
> 
> How does Kimimaro have less level?
> He isn't ranked from a village.  However, we see him stomp all 4 of the sound ninja, who are easily chunnin level.  We see him on the battlefield with Orochimary fighting Kage level opponents.  Etc...  I think it is safe to assume he is at least jounin level when he is healthy.



No, that was filler. Kimimaro hasn't fought any Kage level enemy ever.

The most we know he did was to defeat the sound 4 with troubles. 

And he is below Darui because he was defeated by Genin Gaara.

Kishimoto hasn't have time or will to show who most of the cast of the alliance were. But he wanted to make clear that there were other powerful shinobis from other villages (aside from Konoha) that are on par with the powerful ones of Konoha. To do that without having to waste his time with awesome chapters involving those secondary characters, he hyped some of them and created new ranks.

In the case of Ao It was said that he defeated a powerful Hyuga and took his eye. It was said that he fought Shishui (who doesn't have feats but was stated to be fast and powerful by Itachi) and survive. And he was given the rank of Captain of the sensor division.

Darui was hyped beyond that as the disciple of the 3rd Raikage, having learned the powerful black lighting from him. He was show to react to Sasuke speed and to be able to give him troubles, he was shown overpowering Suigetsu in kenjutsu. It was show that he had a Kekkai Genkai, he was stated to be the right hand of the Raikage. And because of all that hype he was rank General of the first division. And to give him some feat he fought the leaders of the legendary squad that killed Tobirama, 2 descendant of Rikudo with chakra of the Kyubi and legendary weapons. He sealed one of them and helped to seal the other.

Kimimaro was hyped by Orochimaru saying that he had great potential, that he would have become a great shinobi if It wasn't because he was ill and he was to die before he could become a great shinobi.
He was a powerful enemy for the genins, but he wasn't hyped to be above Zabuza for example.

All the super feats of Kimimaro are reacting and fighting and ill Lee, who even when healthy was defeated by the genins of the sound. And giving Genin Gaara some troubles. Genin Gaara was a joke to people like base Gai. Darui's has been hyped and stated to be above that.

Darui's feats are defeating the greatest criminals of the Kumo village. Kimimaro's greatest feat is to survive a few minutes against a 11 years old Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

^ cant even accurately read the manga, kimimaro trolled sound 4 with no effort at all
defeated by genin gaara, who in the previous arc was the sands best weapon  in the war. Who had improved since then mind you. 
he lost due to his sickness, this is after trolling naruto in KN0, fighting rock lee, and gaara. Who btw would have died if kimimaro sickness didnt kick in
But oh well you the wise one who knows everything right. Darui beats 50 kimimaro's without breaking a sweat!!!


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> ^ cant even accurately read the manga, kimimaro trolled sound 4 with no effort at all


Proofs, scans?


Icegaze said:


> defeated by genin gaara, who in the previous arc was the sands best weapon  in the war. Who had improved since then mind you.


False. Gaara was the diversion. He was meant to transform into the Ichibi, who was the real threat, and gain some time for Orochimaru to kill Hiruzen.
Kimimaro didn't win against him.
Also Base Gai did blitz and show Genin Gaara who the boss was.


Icegaze said:


> he lost due to his sickness, this is after trolling naruto in KN0, fighting rock lee, and gaara. Who btw would have died if kimimaro sickness didnt kick in
> But oh well you the wise one who knows everything right. Darui beats 50 kimimaro's without breaking a sweat!!!



Have I say that he can beat 50 Kimimaro without breaking a sweat?

Kimimaro defeated 100 KN0 (each with 1/100 of the real power of KN0), an ill Lee that was operated that morning, and couldn't defeat Gaara.

He is a jounin level character. Able to defeat 4 chuunin level characters and that was defeated by a Gaara that was at most in the upper level of the chuunins.
Sasuke was able to defeat 1000 jounin characters, Darui stopped him 2 times.

I would put Kimimaro below Asuma. And Darui below Kitsuchi.


----------



## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, that was filler. Kimimaro hasn't fought any Kage level enemy ever.
> 
> The most we know he did was to defeat the sound 4 with troubles.
> 
> ...



Gaara was obviously high chunnin level at the time, now come on.   You are ridiculously underestimating Gaara here.  He doesn't become the Kage at 16 for nothing.  Possibly the youngest Kage in history.
Kimimaro was nearly dead!  He only had a few minutes left to live, so he obviously wasn't at his peak.  
Gaara's ability is a strong counter to Kimimaro's techniques.
Finally, Gaara didn't even win!  If kimimaro hadn't died to the illness, then he would have lost.

A healthy Kimimaro is clearly at least jounin level.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> Gaara was obviously high chunnin level at the time, now come on.
> Kimimaro was nearly dead!  He only had a few minutes left to live, so he obviously wasn't at his peak.
> Gaara's ability is a strong counter to Kimimaro's techniques.
> Finally, Gaara didn't even win!  If kimimaro hadn't died to the illness, then he would have lost.
> ...



I agree with all that. It doesn't change the fact that Darui would have one shoot Gaara at that time.

Gaara was a high chuunin level shinobi.
Kimimaro who was able to defeat 4 chuunin level shinobis was a decent jounin.
Asuma was stated to be above it, and proved when he was defeated only when 2 jounin level shinobi and a chuunin level one fought together agaisnt him, and he would have been a captain level in the alliance.
Darui fought 2 S level criminals and sealed one of them by himself and he helped to seal the other, he is a general.
Current Gaara sealed 2 Kages almost by himself and helped to seal another one's half, he is a Kage level shinobi.

Darui is just 2 tiers above Kimimaro.

Kimimaro vs Asuma. Kimimaro vs Zabuza. Kimimaro vs Kankoru. Those are good fights.

The generals, be it by power scaling or feats, are too much for Kimimaro.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

i agree with mysticjbyrd but you cant argue with some who think level is everything while forgetting that current naruto and sasuke are still genin who troll almost all jounin. 
But oh well he knows what he is talking about  

i mean when you start saying sasuke defeated 1000 fodder and darui stopped him twice hence implying it means darui might defeat as many fodders you know you are a joke. 

If being faster than a character where everything Ei would far exceeds the likes of hashirama and onoki
yet they can casually handle him. You dont need footspeed on par with someone to react to them casually, this is a well established manga fact.


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> I agree with all that. It doesn't change the fact that Darui would have one shoot Gaara at that time.
> 
> Gaara was a high chuunin level shinobi.
> Kimimaro who was able to defeat 4 chuunin level shinobis was a decent jounin.
> ...



Wasn't his fight with those two more or less luck?
I don't think I would put darui as Kage level based on that.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> i agree with mysticjbyrd but you cant argue with some who think level is everything while forgetting that current naruto and sasuke are still genin who troll almost all jounin.
> But oh well he knows what he is talking about



I haven't say that any jounin is above the level of any chuunin.

I'm not taking in consideration the given ranks, but the actual ranks that each character deserves.

Kimimaro defeated 4 chuunin level (look that I have said chuunin level not chuunin given rank). He is a jounin level (I said jounin level, not jounin rank) shinobi.

Ao killed an Hyuga and survived agaisnt Shishui, he is a Captain level shinobi.

Sasuke defeated 1000 jounin rank characters, he would have been a general. He is a genin based on his official rank.

Darui defeated the 2 most evil, powerful and famous criminals of the Kumo village, who, along with other 16 shinobis, killed Tobirama. He is a general level ninja.



Icegaze said:


> i mean when you start saying sasuke defeated 1000 fodder and darui stopped him twice hence implying it means darui might defeat as many fodders you know you are a joke.



Says the guy who tries to prove a point making a thread and gets disproved.



Icegaze said:


> If being faster than a character where everything Ei would far exceeds the likes of hashirama and onoki
> yet they can casually handle him. You dont need footspeed on par with someone to react to them casually, this is a well established manga fact.



Have I say that the only thing that Darui has over Kimimaro is speed? That's the point you are trying to claim.

Darui's black lighting would destroy Kimimaru's body, only leaving his durable bones with a lot of burnt flesh.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> Wasn't his fight with those two more or less luck?
> I don't think I would put darui as Kage level based on that.



I haven't said Kage level. General level. Kage candidate level is you prefer.

And that wasn't just luck, which is an important thing on shinobi world, even according to the manga.

The level he showed in that fight was the one of a Kage candidate level, the level of a general.


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> I haven't said Kage level. General level. Kage candidate level is you prefer.
> 
> And that wasn't just luck, which is an important thing on shinobi world, even according to the manga.
> 
> The level he showed in that fight was the one of a Kage candidate level, the level of a general.



The gold and silver brothers are the epitome of hype.

He was about to get sucked into the gourd.  

He accidentally changed his key word.  *LUCK*
Then he conducted a surprise attack after they let their guard down.  *LUCK*
Then the brother lets go of both sage item *LUCK*
Then the brother stumbled into the other, and got hit by the sage item. *LUCK*
Darui is able to retrieve both the gourd and sword sage items, such that he could potentially seal a brother..  *LUCK*
Then the brother said the only word he shouldn't have, and he damn sure should have known what his taboo word was.  *LUCK at best, more like Plot No Jutsu*

That is like winning the lottery without even buying a ticket.


Though since he was given the rank of general, then he is probably high jounin level.
I don't doubt that.  I am just not so sure if that is a lot higher than kimimaro.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> The gold and silver brothers are the epitome of hype.
> 
> He was hit by the rope while trying to save his friends.  *BAD LUCK*
> He accidentally changed his key word.  *LUCK*
> ...




I corrected some parts. Not everything was luck. Darui was also extraordinary fast and strong.

Kimimaro is just an strong jounin, like most of the ones in the war, then he becomes a lot tier elite jounin while using the cursed seal. Asuma was a high elite jounin tier, a captain of the alliance, and he is still a ier below Darui.

Make it this way. Put Darui instead of Ginkkaku against Tobirama, then put Kimimaro instead of Ginkkaku against Tobirama. Who would have more chances?


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

I see no feats whatsoever in that fight.
That was pure plot no jutsu.

The only thing above an elite jounin is kage level.  
Darui is not kage level.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@Zuhaitz please prove how black lightning destroys kimimaro body leaving only his bones. Go on ill wait. 
black lightning has zero feats to suggest such, putting down a few zetsu doesnt mean he can take down kimimaro with it. 

i have never said kimimaro is faster than darui, so clearly you cant read. I said kimimaro is far more skilled in taijutsu therefore shoudl be just fine in CQC against darui and in fact dominate , darui raiton blade has nothing to suggest it can cut kimimaro nothign at all. So why should kimimaro loose at close range?? 

you think about that. 

*so i ask you to prove any feats suggesting raiton blade can cut kimimaro at any stage 
provide any feats that black lightning can take down kimimaro, because so far it merely burnt a few zetsu
provide feats that laser circus can actually pierce kimimaro bones. *

also people say sound 4 needed CS2 to fight 2 fodder jounin and try to downplay them. 
do we know anything about the jounin skill set??? they are special jounin, who knows what they are good at but they must be good at something. 

would be like underestimating Aoba who with 2 kunai can stop people in their tracks. 

not saying the sound 4 are anything above chunin but people skill set matter more than just being generally stronger especially if you are in that persons turf 

perfect example: Gai using gates trolled kisame completely, kisame with his sword wont make a difference mind you. No chakra to absorb. yet the same kisame beat killer bee with some ease i might add, yet can anyone say killer bee wont dominate Gai in battle??

another example: more experience puppet user is the worst thing a puppet user can face. A long range fighter meeting with a close range fighter in CQC is the worst thing for them


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 11, 2013)

Kimimaro was low-mid kage level. Sick he was elite jounin level. Darui is low-mid kage level. SRA Gaara was high-elite jounin level. Asuma was borderline kage level. The Sound 4 individually average to low jounin level and together are an elite jounin level threat. 



A nine page thread of (four, I believe) people listing off all the reasons why Kimimaro is Kage level and rebutting all counter arguments.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> I see no feats whatsoever in that fight.
> That was pure plot no jutsu.



And which fight isn't directed by the plot?
Darui changing his most used word was luck, or some cheap trick.
Him being able to caught the bros by surprise, over speeding them with his gale jutsus and making them collide is a great speed, strength, technique and intelligence feats.



mysticjbyrd said:


> The only thing above an elite jounin is kage level.
> Darui is not kage level.



No. Kishimoto saw the necessity to show that there levels in between a plain jounin and a kage, that's why he created in the first part the elite jounin. And in the second part he saw that he had to show the different levels that are in the elite jounin, and he first mentioned the "Kage candidates" and he later created the ranks of the alliance. In the alliance there are chuunins, jounins, captains, generals and Kages.



Icegaze said:


> @Zuhaitz please prove how black lightning destroys kimimaro body leaving only his bones. Go on ill wait.
> black lightning has zero feats to suggest such, putting down a few zetsu doesnt mean he can take down kimimaro with it.



Once again the black lighting has very few feats, It has mostly power scaling and hype. But not having feats and being weak It's not the same. For example Shishui and Hatake Sakumo have zero feats, but they aren't weak, are they?

Secondly the feats of the black lighting are:
A black lighting chidori was showed to be equal or sightly above KN1's rasengan.
Killing dozens (not a few) of Zetzus with the black panther. 

We also know that is a technique that Darui learned from the 3rd Raikage.

In general the black version of the elements have shown to be a most powerful version of the original element. In the case of raiton, raiton has the power of paralysing the enemy (seen with Yamato, Ashurado, Suigetsu), burning the insides and the flesh (seen with the zetsus,ashurado, etc), and being able to cut.

To scale the black lighting panther technique, the most similar seen technique is the raiton dog of Kakashi, which paralysed and severely injured Ashurado. The black panther is a more destructive version of that technique, and Kimimaro has a similar durability than Ashurado.

Even if It doesn't one shoot Kimimaro, It would severely injure him and paralyse him, and a few of them will certainly kill him.



Icegaze said:


> I said kimimaro is far more skilled in taijutsu therefore shoudl be just fine in CQC against darui and in fact dominate , darui raiton blade has nothing to suggest it can cut kimimaro nothign at all. So why should kimimaro loose at close range??



Kimimaro isn't far more skilled than Darui in CQC. Darui in kenjutsu was able to easily defeat Suigetsu. 

Kimimaro was easily able to defeat the fodder samurais that Suigetsu was defeating as easily.

And please stop comparing some radom samurai's chakra sword (you don't even know if It's raiton) with Darui's raiton sword. Darui has clashed his sword with Sasuke, Suigetsu and the Kin-Gin bros, all of them are expert in kenjutsu and Darui has never being overpowered by them.



Icegaze said:


> also people say sound 4 needed CS2 to fight 2 fodder jounin and try to downplay them.
> do we know anything about the jounin skill set??? they are special jounin, who knows what they are good at but they must be good at something.



No one has called them fodder but you. And you also ignored that those 2 jounin were exhausted from their previous mission, said to have almost no chakra even before fighting the sound 4. 



Icegaze said:


> perfect example: Gai using gates trolled kisame completely, kisame with his sword wont make a difference mind you. No chakra to absorb. yet the same kisame beat killer bee with some ease i might add, yet can anyone say killer bee wont dominate Gai in battle??



Gai only stomped a clone of Kisame with only a 30% of the real's power.
Even when fighting Samehadaless Kisame (Samehada aside from absorbing chakra can also regenerate his user's injures) , Gai had to use the 7th gate to deal with Kisame. In other word Gai had to use his most lethal and extreme technique to stop Kisame.

And Bee didn't fight bloodlusted or going all out against Kisame, he couldn't use his bijuu form to prevent his enka master from dying 

Bee > 7 th gate Gai=> Kisame with Samehada > Samehadaless Kisame => 6th gate Gai



Icegaze said:


> another example: more experience puppet user is the worst thing a puppet user can face. A long range fighter meeting with a close range fighter in CQC is the worst thing for them



Darui isn't a long range fighter. Darui has shown to be able to fight in close range (against Suigetsu, Kin-Gin), mid range (Sasuke-Kin-Gin) and long range (Zetsus, Kin-Gin bros).


----------



## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kimimaro was low-mid kage level. Sick he was elite jounin level. Darui is low kage level. SRA Gaara was high-elite jounin level. Asuma was borderline kage level. The Sound 4 individually are borderline jounin-low jounin level and together are an elite jounin level threat.
> 
> 
> 
> A nine page thread of (four, I believe) people listing off all the reasons why Kimimaro is Kage level and rebutting all counter arguments.



I can agree with this. 
Orochimaru said that the invasion of Konoha would've been a breeze if he had Kimimaro. And thanks to Kimi he easily killed the kazekage.

By the way, what does SRA stand for?


----------



## Kai (Aug 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> The Sound 4 individually are borderline jounin-low jounin level


This is outright false.

The Sasuke Retrieval Arc was not individually full of Jounin-level fighters.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Of course It wasn't. Saying that Kimimaro, or Darui are Kage level or that the sound 4 were jounin level, or even that Gaara was jounin level is prostituting the Jounin and Kage level.


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## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> This is outright false.
> 
> The Sasuke Retrieval Arc was not individually full of Jounin-level fighters.



Borderline jounin means high level chunnin.   They were definitely high level Chunnin!  
They had really unusual techniques that made them extremely deadly.


----------



## mysticjbyrd (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Of course It wasn't. Saying that Kimimaro, or Darui are Kage level or that the sound 4 were jounin level, or even that Gaara was jounin level is prostituting the Jounin and Kage level.



Gaara being jounin isn't that much of a stretch at the time.  
Did you see the shit he was doing?  
He made a huge ass desert in the middle of the forest.
He then did a sand burial on the whole damn thing.
He broke Kimimaro's strongest bone.
He sunk Kimimaro 200m underground.  
Just 3 years later this kid becomes Hokage!  Probably the younger kage ever.

Tons of hype for Kimi too
An elite ninja like Kabuto declaring Kimimaro was stronger than him.
Kabuto suggesting that at the present time the Leaf had nobody stronger than Kimimaro.
Orochimaru suggesting with Kimimaro present they could have destroyed the Leaf.  And thanks to Kimi he easily killed the kazekage.
Karin confirming Kimimaro was stronger than Jugo.
Taking a FRS and still standing up to fight.


----------



## Axiom (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> To scale the black lighting panther technique, the most similar seen technique is the raiton dog of Kakashi, which paralysed and severely injured Ashurado. The black panther is a more destructive version of that technique, and Kimimaro has a similar durability than Ashurado.
> 
> Even if It doesn't one shoot Kimimaro, It would severely injure him and paralyse him, and a few of them will certainly kill him.
> 
> ...



I disagree with your opinion on Darui Vs Kimi, but it's a lot easier to just rebuttal what's outright false, as opposed to the rest of your post which can indeed be backed up.

Kakashi's Raiton Dog never touched Asura Realm.  He used it once and Deva ST'd it.  What happened to Asura is Deva Realm BT'd Kakashi and Asura stuck out some saw to impale him but it was actually a Raiton Kage Bunshin.

The RKB did indeed turn into electricity and paralyze Asura, but it was never shown to severely injure him.  What injured him was getting punched by Cho Baika Chouji and Chouza.

Also, Kin/Gin weren't ever stated to be Kenjutsu experts.  I can't recall ever seeing either one of them wield a sword.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

mysticjbyrd said:


> Borderline jounin means high level chunnin.   They were definitely high level Chunnin!
> They had really unusual techniques that made them extremely deadly.



Having hax jutsus doesn't make anyone a top chuunin level by itself.

Current Shino, Kiba, etc are high chuunin level and they'd rape the sound 4 with easy.



mysticjbyrd said:


> Gaara being jounin isn't that much of a stretch at the time.
> Did you see the shit he was doing?
> He made a huge ass desert in the middle of the forest.
> He then did a sand burial on the whole damn thing.
> ...



No, It isn't. On the other hand saying that Gaara was low Kage level at that time It's prostituting the Kage level.
Gaara at most was a low level Jounin, at minimum a high level chunnin.

He made huge jutsus, but huge jutsus and high level jutsus aren't exactly the same, are they? Kamui isn't that big, but It's one of the most powerful jutsus.



mysticjbyrd said:


> Tons of hype for Kimi too
> An elite ninja like Kabuto declaring Kimimaro was stronger than him.
> Kabuto suggesting that at the present time the Leaf had nobody stronger than Kimimaro.
> Orochimaru suggesting with Kimimaro present they could have destroyed the Leaf.  And thanks to Kimi he easily killed the kazekage.
> ...



False, false and false again.

All those thing were only said in the anime, not in the manga. In the manga Kimimaro was portrayed as a ninja with great potential. It wasn't said that he had a great level at the time he died, but rather that he could have achieved a great level if he had keep training for years.



Axiom said:


> Kakashi's Raiton Dog never touched Asura Realm.  He used it once and Deva ST'd it.  What happened to Asura is Deva Realm BT'd Kakashi and Asura stuck out some saw to impale him but it was actually a Raiton Kage Bunshin.
> 
> The RKB did indeed turn into electricity and paralyze Asura, but it was never shown to severely injure him.  What injured him was getting punched by Cho Baika Chouji and Chouza.
> 
> Also, Kin/Gin weren't ever stated to be Kenjutsu experts.  I can't recall ever seeing either one of them wield a sword.



That does in fact validate my point. A simple raiton bushin was already able to paralyse Ashurado.

Also Kin-Gin bros were specialized in the use of Rikudo's weapons, which include an sword, if they are not kenjutsu masters, they are at least weapon using masters. Their fighting style makes them CQC experts.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> And which fight isn't directed by the plot?
> Darui changing his most used word was luck, or some cheap trick.
> Him being able to caught the bros by surprise, over speeding them with his gale jutsus and making them collide is a great speed, strength, technique and intelligence feats.
> 
> ...



so in short all you have is some false scaling of black lightning with no feats. 
Again your shisui and kakashi dad example are simply poor. I am talking about an attack not the ninja as a whole. 
 being able to fight with suigetsu in CQC doesnt equate to being able to compete with kimimaro. 
For all darui techniques all you have is some fake scaling and zero feats to suggest that any of them could take down kimimaro who has tanked techniques that turn people into blood stains. 

So no anyone with common sense wont suggest any of darui techniques can kill kimimaro, none of them can. None of them have the feats to suggest they can. 

meanwhile bracken dance has the feats and anyone with a brain has every reason to believe not only would it by hard to dodge there is nothing darui can do to counter bones coming from below him. when he jumps he has to land correct?? what happens when he lands on a bone?

again fodder samurai chakra blade collided with sasuke chidori sword, sasuke deflected their chakra blade attacks, he didnt cut through them. So right there no reason to believe sasuke chidori sword has greater cutting power. Another example, mifune chakra sword clashing with sasuke chidori sword. In both cases the samurais blades didnt cut 

So no reason at all to believe darui raiton blade is any better or sharper than sasuke's or mifunes. Both of which dont have the feats to suggest they can cut kimimaro even in base form. 

So i wonder why we are arguing about this. All you have in conjecture and fake scaling to suggest darui can take kimimaro down. While kimimaro actually has jutsu that can kill darui 

also you seem to forget this is 5 on 2. tayuya and kidomaru will quickly and i mean quickly flee on sight and begin their assault where they cant get blitz'd or bullied. 

Also tayuya genjutsu GG...darui has shown no counter to that. 2 much better genjutsu users had difficulties with it.


----------



## Zuhaitz (Aug 11, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> so in short all you have is some false scaling of black lightning with no feats.



Do you want to create another thread about the destructive capacity of the black lighting? 



Icegaze said:


> Again your shisui and kakashi dad example are simply poor. I am talking about an attack not the ninja as a whole.



As a whole Darui is tiers above Kimimaro, so It's the perfect example.



Icegaze said:


> being able to fight with suigetsu in CQC doesnt equate to being able to compete with kimimaro.



True, Suigetsu has been pointed to be better than Kimimaro in kenjutsu 



Icegaze said:


> For all darui techniques all you have is some fake scaling and zero feats to suggest that any of them could take down kimimaro who has tanked techniques that turn people into blood stains.



LOL You still don't get the power scaling and that's why you make yourself a fool in the thread you created.

Few feat =/= weak

Obviously the most destructive jutsu of a General is way more destructive than the most destructive technique Gaara had when he was 11 years old.



Icegaze said:


> So no anyone with common sense wont suggest any of darui techniques can kill kimimaro, none of them can. None of them have the feats to suggest they can.



You should re read this thread and see who thinks the contrary and why. You may learn a thing or 2.



Icegaze said:


> meanwhile bracken dance has the feats and anyone with a brain has every reason to believe not only would it by hard to dodge there is nothing darui can do to counter bones coming from below him. when he jumps he has to land correct?? what happens when he lands on a bone?



Who has that technique ever kill? (Just using your logic)



Icegaze said:


> again fodder samurai chakra blade collided with sasuke chidori sword, sasuke deflected their chakra blade attacks, he didnt cut through them. So right there no reason to believe sasuke chidori sword has greater cutting power. Another example, mifune chakra sword clashing with sasuke chidori sword. In both cases the samurais blades didnt cut



False. Sasuke's blade never collided with the one of a fodder samurai.




Icegaze said:


> also you seem to forget this is 5 on 2. tayuya and kidomaru will quickly and i mean quickly flee on sight and begin their assault where they cant get blitz'd or bullied.
> 
> Also tayuya genjutsu GG...darui has shown no counter to that. 2 much better genjutsu users had difficulties with it.





Tayuya and Kidomaru are to Darui what the 1000 jounins were to Sasuke, in other words, fodders.


----------



## Kai (Aug 11, 2013)

Kimimaro low Kage?


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Do you want to create another thread about the destructive capacity of the black lighting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



read the kage summit arc sasuke chidori blade collided with fodder samurai chakra blade attack. They launched their attack at him and he blocked it, however he didnt cut through their chakra blade. Just go and read it before you argue. 

In BD we use feats and not powerscaling, thats just BS and far to arbitrary to make any real sense. Cuz then people can start saying hashirama is far better than gai at taijutsu despite hashirama not needing to be that good in taijutsu and having no feats to suggest he is 

also suigetsu was never stated or shown to be better than kimimaro in kenjutsu. 

Saying bracken down can kill darui despite having killed no one isnt using my logic at all. 
fact is darui has a normal human body and cannot outright tank 200m bones coming at him. 
meanwhile kimimaro is an actual tank and has tanked several things. 

Power scaling like you are doing is utter none sense because that makes hashirama the best taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu user, which we know isnt the case. It also makes him the fastest and the strongest by your logic which we know is also false. 

being a tier or 2 tiers above someone doesnt mean you are better than them at what they focus on 

simple example for a simple person. who is better at taijtusu gai or hashirama?? 

please note hashirama is at the very very least a whole tier above gai, by some standards up to 3 tiers above gai. So think properly before answering, ill use your answer against u


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 11, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> ^This.
> 
> Darui just dodges it like the Uchiha Bros. would have if Kabuto hadn't blocked their escape route with Kumo Nenkin (which means Kabuto tacitly understood they could do it).


Kabuto never tried to hit the Uchiha Bros. with Sawaribi no Mai, he solely used it to try and trap them in one spot with a very small version of it(he didn't want Sasuke dead). Darui isn't fast enough to be "dodging" this [1], though he may be fast enough or have good enough reactions to evade being hit by the bones coming up(there is some space in between some of the protruding bones, though where one will come up is fairly unpredictable) or he can use Sujinheki below himself to keep from being hit. However, even if he manages to take minimal to no damage from the bones coming up, there is Kimimaro's surprise attacks from inside the bones.

Not arguing this match as a whole, just your incorrect statement that the Uchiha Bros. in some way could of just outrun/dodged entirely a full Sawaribi no Mai when they were never even attacked with it.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> Kimimaro low Kage?


I really hope you're being sarcastic here Kai, as you're certainly a much better poster then to think that this scan suggests that SRA Sasuke is on Kimimaro's level, especially when that contradicts with the hype that Kimimaro is stronger than part 1 Kabuto who is supposed to be part 1 Kakashi's equal.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@wolfprincekiba a few panels before that kabuto admitted to being weaker than kimimaro, kabuto who was considered kakashi equal. So that panel doesnt make kabuto previous statement false, simply makes it confusing. though i guess he was making the bloodline+cursed seal comparison. Seeing that kimimaro blood line is strong like the uchiha and kimimaro cursed seal is almost as strong as the one sasuke has. Thats where the comparison is


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 11, 2013)

I interpret Kabuto's statement as 1) being about potential and 2) him trying to motivate Kimimaro into action via jealousy and/or wanting to convince Kimi that Sasuke would be a great host to his lord Orochimaru. In any case, there is more than just contradictory statements that make the idea that SRA Sasuke=Kimimaro a ridiculous notion. There is the fact that Naruto was thoroughly outclassed by base Kimimaro even using KN0 while KN0 Naruto was giving base(base as in not using CS) Sasuke quite a difficult time. Kimimaro also easily solo'd the sound 4(it appeared he beat them in just base) whereas a Sasuke who was only weaker then the Sasuke being discussed there in that he didn't have CS got beaten pretty badly by the base sound 4(who weren't even really making much use of their abilities).


----------



## WolfPrinceKiba (Aug 11, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> A nine page thread of (four, I believe) people listing off all the reasons why Kimimaro is Kage level and rebutting all counter arguments.


Its a good thing I looked over page 8 because I was just about to post that thread myself

I had confused Kai for a second for being the one to always think lowly of Kimimaro when it was Akito. I think very highly of both of them but Kimimaro is someone we very much disagree on.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

i think very highly of kimimaro as well but most people always discard part 1 characters. 
Kimimaro by any standard part 1 and 2 is still a high jounin 
most people have no proof that most attacks will get passed kimimaro defense, as in he cant tank them 
yet people would say  SM naruto rasengan can GG him, or hien or anything shown in part 2 can pretty much GG him despite that being quite untrue. I believe kimimaro base defense is at least as good as domu 

i mean why would orochimaru want his body if pretty much any high level attack could get through?? 

orochimaru wanted kimimaro body, i.e a strong body so he could master the dragon sage mode. Clearly kimimaro body isnt to be messed with, see all the things kabuto had to do to himself just to perfect it. Yet orochimaru believed if he obtained kimimaro body he could attain dragon sage mode. 

people dont think  and simply say he fought 3 gennin therefore any current jounin like darui would troll him.  Its all over this thread and honestly i actually give up


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## Kai (Aug 11, 2013)

WolfPrinceKiba said:


> I really hope you're being sarcastic here Kai, as you're certainly a much better poster then to think that this scan suggests that SRA Sasuke is on Kimimaro's level, especially when that contradicts with the hype that Kimimaro is stronger than part 1 Kabuto who is supposed to be part 1 Kakashi's equal.


Where in the manga was Kimimaro described to be stronger than Kabuto? IIRC such comments were only fed in the anime.

@Icegaze, I've never seen anyone arguing against Kimi place him below that of a low-mid Jounin, which seems very appropriate for his skill level. However, I've seen a number of extremist views on the other side of the fence suggest nonsense like he's Kage level and he tanked FRS — two ideas that aren't even irrational but just _completely_ made up by fans of characters with "potential" rather than portrayed or demonstrated ability during their tenure in the manga.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@kai i know you didnt say i suggested he can tank FRS cuz even i dont believe that. 
Ill ask you how durable do you think he is 

doton domu level (btw has no feats, however has portrayal so right there people would already say domu is more durable than kimimaro)
below doton domu

in my opinion he is above that. based on what cs2 can actually tank. see sasuke wing, thats just the wing

so we know cs2 increases his already steal tanking base abilities, then there is the skin which can tank c2 from deidara. 
So why popular opinion is that he cant tank things like hien or raiton blade shock me

to me to down kimimaro you need odama rasegan level fire power at least. again just my opinion which most would disagree with because kimimaro is a part 1 character.


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## Kai (Aug 11, 2013)

Durability of his Kekkei Genkai is strong enough that hand to hand combat is not really an option against him unless talking about top tiers in that regard like Tsunade, Gai, Jinchuuriki, and nintaijutsu users like Raikage.

His durability level should be above the likes of Rashomon Gate and Gaara's Suna defenses, probably above even Doton: Domu based on hype on a bloodline vs. a Doton but they may be in a similar "tier" of durability.

Of course, defenses like the Rashomon can be increased with greater quantity and Gaara's defenses can be amplified with greater area/volume of sand than before to withstand more than Kimimaro's Shikotsumyaku. Kimimaro hasn't demonstrated ability to exponentially fortify or expand his defense but rather use various shape manipulations for offense variety.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

@kai so who do you think is more durable kisame or kimimaro? 
and while am at it, seeing that you would obviously say kisame is more durable 
does hirudora 1 shot kimimaro ?


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## Kai (Aug 11, 2013)

Common sense would be Kimimaro, even though Kisame surviving Hirudora is really blown out of proportion by several.

If Gai wanted to, he would absolutely kill Kisame with Hirudora.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2013)

i am surprised you said kimimaro i cant lie. 99% of NF would say kisame despite that being nonsensical


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> This is outright false.
> 
> The Sasuke Retrieval Arc was not individually full of Jounin-level fighters.



Well sure, Jirobou, Chouji, Shikamaru, and Kiba weren't solidly there yet!





Zuhaitz said:


> Of course It wasn't. Saying that Kimimaro, or Darui are Kage level or that the sound 4 were jounin level, or even that Gaara was jounin level is prostituting the Jounin and Kage level.



Because these "above Chunin level" shinobi were oh so strong. 

The Jounin level is not determined by the skills of named characters who are confirmed jounin, and no mention of elites like Asuma, Kakashi, or Gai should even be made on the matter. Named characters always get hyped or portrayed as noteworthy. Nameless fodder are fodderized because they, the average representations of certain levels of strength and thus named characters always get to fight other named characters who are all comparatively elite. 

And let's not kid ourselves, while I believe that if Kishi gave Hiruzen any thought these days, even his aged strength would be massively power scaled up, the one we saw and have DB stats for was really no more impressive than Part I Kakashi. Kage level doesn't mean Minato. It doesn't even mean Ei or Tsunade. It means "anyone as strong or stronger than the weakest Kage ever". And come on, I posted a thread with protracted reasoning and rebuttals to all opposition on the matter, but nah, people's notions of rank mattering a whole lot still make it unbelievable that a bunch of Genin were that strong. Of course Naruto is still a Genin....so.





Zuhaitz said:


> .Current Shino, Kiba, etc are high chuunin level.



They're elite jounin level. "Come at me". 


> It wasn't said that he had a great level at the time he died, but rather that he could have achieved a great level if he had keep training for years.



Lol, not a single reference to Kimimaro's ability said a word about him not yet being strong. Not a word. Not one referenced him as merely having "potential".


Kai said:


> However, I've seen a number of extremist views on the other side of the fence suggest nonsense like he's Kage level and he tanked FRS — two ideas that aren't even irrational but just _completely_ made up by fans of characters with "potential" rather than portrayed or demonstrated ability during their tenure in the manga.



I'm not a Kimimaro fan. I have little care for him at all. Oh and while he didn't tank the FRS, Naruto's clone did form one and it evidently failed somehow. And he and Chiyo, all alone, managed to hold off Naruto's KCM Bunshin, Mifune, and all dem samurai for over a day after Hanzo got quickly beaten. 


Kai said:


> Kimimaro low Kage?



He was goading Kimimaro. I mean, he had an evil grin and it repeated again when his little jab payed off. 

We know full well that Kimimaro, even sick, was stronger than Sasuke.


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## Rocky (Aug 11, 2013)

Kimimaro could easily be scaled to Kage level. I would put him around Hebi Sasuke's level, which is in the power scale of the Kage.

People have this bad taste in their mouths since Kimimaro didn't  eradicate Gaara within seconds. I honestly don't understand that, as throwing a mini-desert around is a Kage level feat, and Gaara basically lost that fight anyway, in the end.

Kimimaro in Base fought off Druken Fist Lee, who blacked Gai himself out. 

He _stomped_ Naruto's Kyuubi-powered clone army, which has always been an incredible feat to me. Haku was implied to be of the Elite Jounin level by Zabuza, who knew Haku better than any of us. Yet Naruto with the Kyuubi's Chakra quickly overwhelmed him, albeit while tired. Reibi Naruto was easily an Elite Jounin level brawler. I don't see normal Jounin like Ebisu lasting more than 5 seconds against Naruto in that form, and Kimimaro stomped the mess out of him in it....in Base.

This is all while basically a walking corpse, which is why I place him so high. It's difficult to get up off the couch and go make eggs while I have the something as minor as the _flu_. Kimimaro was knocking on death's door while fighting off Taijutsu masters, Kyuubi amped clone armies, and a guy that can use a desert for a weapon.

Let's think back to Tsunade during the Pain arch. She tried to help Naruto, but nearly had her facial features reconstructed by Shurado. She was effectively useless.

.....Well she was at a greater level of health than Kimimaro, considering she only fell into a coma. She didn't die like he did. Kimimaro accomplished all of his feats at a Post-CST Tsunade level of health. 

Yeah, definitely Kage level.


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## Dil (Aug 11, 2013)

And that's the reason why Kimi was Orochimaru's first candidate for his body. Because that's how strong Kimimaro is. He is very dangerous.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Yeah, Kimimaro was Kage level. In fact Kimimaro would stomp any of the current or past Kages 

Also lol Kabuto flattering Kimimaro so he kills himself for Orochimaru's sake is a valid statement. And I guess that Hiruzen is the strongest ninja of all times because Kabuto said so


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

@Zuhaitz i dont see why or how you believe darui stomps or even defeats the likes of kimimaro simply because kimimaro didnt walk over gaara, after fighting lee and naruto. 
Am sorry but nothing says darui wont be caught by sabaku taiso. Which would evidently kill him. 
just saying gaara then wasnt as weak as people like to think


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> @Zuhaitz i dont see why or how you believe darui stomps or even defeats the likes of kimimaro simply because kimimaro didnt walk over gaara, after fighting lee and naruto.
> Am sorry but nothing says darui wont be caught by sabaku taiso. Which would evidently kill him.
> just saying gaara then wasnt as weak as people like to think



I don't see how Kimimaro is Kage level, nothing suggest that he is.

All you got is Kimimaro having troubles with genins and chuunins. While we have seen Darui fighting elite jounins 2 vs 1 

Darui is faster, has faster reaction speed, is stronger, has more chakra and has shown to be able to defeat more powerful people.



Johnhandcock said:


> Gaara when he fought Kimi was at high jounin level, and Kimi was nearly dead.



False, he was chuunin level, high chuunin level. 

If you believe otherwise I suggest you to make a Genin Gaara vs Asuma thread.



Johnhandcock said:


> Yes, gai knocked his sand away in the preliminaries.   However, Gai is by no means an ordinary jounin.  Also,Gaara was completely exhausted.   He could barely move the sand at all.  The sand was weakened.



Gaara was exhausted because he fought a genin. And base Gai is jounin level, Asuma level if you please.



Johnhandcock said:


> I put Kimi = Hebi Sasuke = Low-mid Kage



And I put CS2 Kimimaro = Asuma level = Jounin level


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> I don't see how Kimimaro is Kage level, nothing suggest that he is.
> 
> All you got is Kimimaro having troubles with genins and chuunins. While we have seen Darui fighting elite jounins 2 vs 1
> 
> ...



darui defeated more powerful people using tools for that fight perfectly suited to beating them and again tools that arent darui's to begin with. 

i am not saying darui isnt faster, you seem to hold on to that. How does that help darui beat kimimaro though. Kimimaro can simply tank and counter attack. 
also darui never fought anyone 2 vs 1 without help of some all to convenient weapons 

To say gai and asuma are the same level shows you are dumber than i thought. Gai decimates asuma in 1, 2, 3, asuma died!!!

*you do realize when kimi fought he was more compromised than orochimaru without hands, jiraiya with his chakra screwed and tsunade with her blood phobia. Its funny how you forget it was clearly stated kimimaro was a dead man walking. * 

*same way people always say healthy itachi is much stronger than the itachi that fought sasuke, healthy kimimaro is much stronger than the kimi that died because his heart stopped. He was in an even worse condition than itachi*

*what you are doing is like me using jiraiya feats during the sannin trio to say thats the best jiraiya can do. Which is utterly stupid.  We dont know how but kimimaro didnt get 1 panelled by KCM naruto who is so so far above the likes of asuma. If kimi was asuma level that FRS would have hit him clean, but it didnt* 

so either he tanked it or avoided  it either way thats a valid feat to consider.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

^ i agree with said poster so to all those saying genin are genin level 

is rock lee in gates genin level?? because believe me he pawns chunin like omoi with so much ease it aint even fair.

again being chunin is about passing an exam more than it is about your battle abilities. gated genin rock lee pawns shikamaru all day every day for life. 

gated current rock lee pawns neji, neji is a jounin rock lee is a chunin. So people using rank to determine battle strength is simply BS

Mei being kage doesnt make her the strongest in her village compulsorily, i mean we know for sure tsunade isnt. So again rank is rank, rank isnt battle ability 

kitsuchi daughter is a jounin, does that mean she can beat chouij who is a chunin??


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Johnhandcock said:


> Testimony from numerous characters + Feats put Kimi at about that level when he is healthy.
> They weren't genin and chunin.  They were high level chunin + mid jonin, and the guy was on his death bed.  *DEATH BED!  *



False, KN0 is super duper kage level. Post operation Lee was at very least elite jounin level, and Gaara was already Kage level, he became weak after the 3 years time skip.

That's why Kimimaro is Madara's level.



Johnhandcock said:


> What evidence do you have of speed differences?
> What evidence do you even have that he can even scratch Kimi?  His attacks are weak, and bones don't conduct electricity well.  It won't even hit his nervous system to daze him.



Kurenai's speed >  Neji's reaction speed=Kimimaro's reaction speed by feats > Lee's movement speed

Darui was able to defeat Ginkaku. Kimimaro didn't defeat Lee, Naruto and Gaara when they were 11, 12 and 13 years old. 



Johnhandcock said:


> High jounin might be a bit mich for gaara, low-mid jonin for sure though.
> Asuma is on the lower end of the elite jonin.  That isn't a fair match!



LOL Try harder. Gaara was barely jounin level if something.



Johnhandcock said:


> Lee + 5 gates is sure as fuck not a genin!
> Lee base is chunin level!  With 5 gates he is probably rocking jonin level for a short time.
> Just like Gai who goes up rank when he opens the gates.



False. Hayate, an actual chuunin was the referee during Lee's battle with Gaara, did he mention that Gaara or Lee were on his level?




Johnhandcock said:


> Sick CS2 Kimimaro = High Jounin level
> Healthy CS2 Kimimaro = Hebi Sasuke = Low-mid Kage




Hebi Sasuke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Asuma> CS2 Kimimaro

And about his health, It was stated that in his death bed he was on his prime.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

@ zuhaitz the last part of your post is BS. that was never stated that on his death bed he was at his prime that right there is a paradox it doesnt even make sense. What a douche!!!


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> @ zuhaitz the last part of your post is BS. that was never stated that on his death bed he was at his prime that right there is a paradox it doesnt even make sense. What a douche!!!



here

Kimimaro states that he is no longer prisoned in his body. If It's too difficult for you to understand the meaning of what he says you can always ask


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> here
> 
> Kimimaro states that he is no longer prisoned in his body. If It's too difficult for you to understand the meaning of what he says you can always ask



he felt liberated doesnt mean he was in top condition but its ok grasp at straws. Darui trolls with all his massive feat damaging jutsu which broke appart kinkaku and all the zetsu. Black lightning turned them to mush. 
 i agree with you. happy?


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## Ghost (Aug 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kimimaro could easily be scaled to Kage level. I would put him around Hebi Sasuke's level, which is in the power scale of the Kage.
> 
> People have this bad taste in their mouths since Kimimaro didn't  eradicate Gaara within seconds. I honestly don't understand that, as throwing a mini-desert around is a Kage level feat, and Gaara basically lost that fight anyway, in the end.
> 
> ...



I think this post gave me cancer.


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## Baroxio (Aug 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> ^This.
> 
> Darui just dodges it like the Uchiha Bros. would have if Kabuto hadn't blocked their escape route with Kumo Nenkin (which means Kabuto tacitly understood they could do it).



Itachi destroyed Bone Forest, he didn't just move out the way. And Kimiamro's Bone forest has greater Area of Effect than Kabuto's version anyway.

Basically, what everyone else has been saying is correct. Kimimaro keeps Darui from raping the other Sound 4 long enough for them to assist him in beating Darui. Shi counters this with faster, more effective genjutsu than Tayuya, allowing Darui to take them all out anyway.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> he felt liberated doesnt mean he was in top condition but its ok grasp at straws. Darui trolls with all his massive feat damaging jutsu which broke appart kinkaku and all the zetsu. Black lightning turned them to mush.
> i agree with you. happy?



No way, Kinkkaku? You mean that fodder that fought Tobirama, the second and 3rd Raikage, that survived against the Kyubi, that was able to use Rikudo's weapons?

That fodder can't compare to someone Kabuto said to be stronger than anyone in Konoha including Kakashi, Jiraiya, Gai, etc.


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## Baroxio (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No way, Kinkkaku? You mean that fodder that fought Tobirama, the second and 3rd Raikage, that survived against the Kyubi, that was able to use Rikudo's weapons?
> 
> That fodder can't compare to someone Kabuto said to be stronger than anyone in Konoha including Kakashi, Jiraiya, Gai, etc.


Bad logic. Anyone in Konoha includes Chouji, who defeated a Kakuzu who fought with mother-freaking Hashirama. 

Simply fighting with somebody doesn't mean you are of the same strength.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Bad logic. Anyone in Konoha includes Chouji, who defeated a Kakuzu who fought with mother-freaking Hashirama.
> 
> Simply fighting with somebody doesn't mean you are of the same strength.



Kinkkaku+Ginkkaku+ other 16 ninjas (among which there was probably Kakuzu) killed Tobirama 

Chouji didn't defeat Kakuzu by himself, the whole army defeated him off panel and Chouji was making sure he couldn't move.

Kinkkaku and Ginkkaku are the guys with enough chakra to use Rikudo's weapons without troubles. They are the guys with enough Kyubi chakra to become KK6 and GK6. They are the guys that killed the second Raikage and the second Hokage (along with some other ninjas). They were feared by the current Raikage, they were basically a legend in Kumogakure. And they weren't just hype, they did do those things.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

@zuhaitz no one is doubting they did those things. They are strong, very much so indeed. 
However my argument is your just using conjecture to say, if he fought someone this strong anyone weaker gets easily trolled. For the last time though, nothing no feats or hype suggest any of darui attacks can harm kimimaro. Nothing at all suggests that. Also kabuto version of bone forest was a mini mini version of what kimimaro can do. 
It also forced itachi to use susanoo. that tells you something. he didnt just katon it, or throw a kunai at it because kimimaro is a part 1 character. 

Maybe orochimaru hyped kimimaro because he knew the techniques that would be needed to kill him, none of which anyone in konoha had at the time. Maybe thats it. Who knows. 

A body as durable as kimimaro's cant just be toyed with the way you imply it can. I mean zetsu only got lightly burnt by black lightning, zetsu is nothing as far as durability is concerned compared to kimimaro.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> @zuhaitz no one is doubting they did those things. They are strong, very much so indeed.
> However my argument is your just using conjecture to say, if he fought someone this strong anyone weaker gets easily trolled. For the last time though, nothing no feats or hype suggest any of darui attacks can harm kimimaro. Nothing at all suggests that. Also kabuto version of bone forest was a mini mini version of what kimimaro can do.
> It also forced itachi to use susanoo. that tells you something. he didnt just katon it, or throw a kunai at it because kimimaro is a part 1 character.



No, your argument is that as Darui's destructive capacity can't be quantified, It must be below that of what Kimimaro has show to be able to tank.

That we have no means to know the exact power of Darui's attack as he hasn't attack many people with them doesn't mean that It must be below the level of Kimimaro's tanking power.

The fact that he could fight Ginkkaku and Kinkkaku almost in equal terms suggest, if not directly tell us, that his attacking power will fit his overall level. That would mean that yes, his black lighting that only has feats one shooting Zetsus, also have enough power to injure Kimimaro, because It's an attack meant to injure people above Kimimaro's level. And yes I'm aware that Kimimaro has a tanking capacity above his overall level. 



Icegaze said:


> Maybe orochimaru hyped kimimaro because he knew the techniques that would be needed to kill him, none of which anyone in konoha had at the time. Maybe thats it. Who knows.
> 
> A body as durable as kimimaro's cant just be toyed with the way you imply it can. I mean zetsu only got lightly burnt by black lightning, zetsu is nothing as far as durability is concerned compared to kimimaro.



Maybe Orochimaru did it to hype us as we didn't have a decent final boss for the saga.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 12, 2013)

Kimimaro vs Darui is high diff either way so the S5 together should secure this victory


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, your argument is that as Darui's destructive capacity can't be quantified, It must be below that of what Kimimaro has show to be able to tank.
> 
> That we have no means to know the exact power of Darui's attack as he hasn't attack many people with them doesn't mean that It must be below the level of Kimimaro's tanking power.
> 
> ...



really so fodder zetsu are above kimimaro level?? cuz thats all black lightning did to them, injure them. if thats your argument then wow boy  i give up. Your logic is flawless 

what i am saying is that we cant just assume because darui is a jounin it means he can harm and destroy kimimaro in 1 move. If kimi body was so weak why did orochimaru want it? Why take a body weaker than your own and by a large margin mind you if you think black lightning can harm kimi


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## joshhookway (Aug 12, 2013)

Darui is fucking murdered.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> really so fodder zetsu are above kimimaro level?? cuz thats all black lightning did to them, injure them. if thats your argument then wow boy  i give up. Your logic is flawless
> 
> what i am saying is that we cant just assume because darui is a jounin it means he can harm and destroy kimimaro in 1 move. If kimi body was so weak why did orochimaru want it? Why take a body weaker than your own and by a large margin mind you if you think black lightning can harm kimi



Have I said that Kimimaro is Zetsu level?
I have said that him only using it against Zetsus doesn't mean that It can only kill Zetsu level enemies 

And not, he killed the Zetsum he didn't injure them.

And I'll repeat, Orochimaru wanted Kimimaro because of 2 reasons, first his Kekkai Genkai, and secondly his potential (not the power he had when he died, but the power he could have achieved if he could have keep growing).


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Also lol Kabuto flattering Kimimaro so he kills himself for Orochimaru's sake is a valid statement.



Kabuto didn't flatter Kimimaro to his face. He and Orochimaru wanked him behind his back while insulting him to his face to make him jealous of Sasuke. Between that and you making up out of thin air the idea that Orochimaru and Kabuto only talked about Kimimaro's potential (fun fact, neither the word potential or any similar word was used), I am convinced you just go entirely by your own impressions and don't back any of it up.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kabuto didn't flatter Kimimaro to his face. He and Orochimaru wanked him behind his back while insulting him to his face to make him jealous of Sasuke. Between that and you making up out of thin air the idea that Orochimaru and Kabuto only talked about Kimimaro's potential (fun fact, neither the word potential or any similar word was used), I am convinced you just go entirely by your own impressions and don't back any of it up.



They hyped the main antagonist of the saga so that final boss wouldn't be an unknown fodder that happens to be powerful. Instead of having a character with a past and a motivation Kishimoto made him an slave of Orochimaru, who Orochimaru hyped.


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## Ennoia (Aug 12, 2013)

Darui has very few feats, S4 took out 2 Kage bodyguards so im going with S5 on this one.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Which has nothing to do with the point you made. You simply got your facts wrong. Kabuto didn't flatter Kimi. End of story.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Darui has very few feats, S4 took out 2 Kage bodyguards so im going with S5 on this one.



No, they were able to run away from 2 exhausted Kage guards. 

Darui sealed 2 S class criminals that killed the second Hokage and Raikage 



SubtleObscurantist said:


> Which has nothing to do with the point you made. You simply got your facts wrong. Kabuto didn't flatter Kimi. End of story.



It has a lot to do. Nothing of what they say made any sense. Unless you think that Kimimaro is more powerful than Jiraiya, Gai, Kakashi or Tsunade, as they said that no one in Konoha was stronger than Kimimaro.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> It has a lot to do. Nothing of what they say made any sense. Unless you think that Kimimaro is more powerful than Jiraiya, Gai, Kakashi or Tsunade, as they said that no one in Konoha was stronger than Kimimaro.



Healthy Kimimaro was more powerful than Part I Kakashi and Gai. Orochimaru didn't know Jiraiya was in Konoha at the time of the invasion and Tsunade wasn't in Konoha, but yeah, rusty and with her blood phobia, Kimimaro could have beaten her as well.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Healthy Kimimaro was more powerful than Part I Kakashi and Gai.


That's simply wrong. Almost stupid.


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Orochimaru didn't know Jiraiya was in Konoha at the time of the invasion and Tsunade wasn't in Konoha, but yeah, rusty and with her blood phobia, Kimimaro could have beaten her as well.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 12, 2013)

^ concede much ??


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## Ennoia (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> No, they were able to run away from 2 exhausted Kage guards.


Does this look like running away to you?



> Darui sealed 2 S class criminals that killed the second Hokage and Raikage


It was stated that there were 20 people in the Kinkaku Force following Tobirama and his team. Darui sealed Ginkaku after catching him off guard so I dont see how it matters, Gold and Silver dont exactly have many feats anyway.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> That's simply wrong. Almost stupid.



Whatever floats your boat.


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## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Healthy Kimimaro was more powerful than Part I Kakashi and Gai. Orochimaru didn't know Jiraiya was in Konoha at the time of the invasion and Tsunade wasn't in Konoha, but yeah, rusty and with her blood phobia, Kimimaro could have beaten her as well.



Maybe Phobia Tsunade, but even rusty Tsunade(one vs Oro) would absolutely destroy Kimmi. Your making some absurd comments, stronger them Gai and Kakashi? Your gonna have to explain yourself.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Maybe Phobia Tsunade, but even rusty Tsunade(one vs Oro) would absolutely destroy Kimmi. Your making some absurd comments, stronger them Gai and Kakashi? Your gonna have to explain yourself.



Given how many times I have explained myself and posted a nine page thread where I and others explained myself at lengths, no, I don't really have to do anything for your convenience.


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## Veracity (Aug 12, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Given how many times I have explained myself and posted a nine page thread where I and others explained myself at lengths, no, I don't really have to do anything for your convenience.



Your acting like I've been sitting her studying your shit for hours. No I haven't even read your posts, nor do I need too. It's common sense that Kimmi would get destroyed by any of the people you named. Point blank period.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Your acting like I've been sitting her studying your shit for hours. No I haven't even read your posts, nor do I need too. It's common sense that Kimmi would get destroyed by any of the people you named. Point blank period.



Thank you for your opinion.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 12, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Does this look like running away to you?



*Spoiler*: __ 








They sure stomped them hard 



Ennoia said:


> It was stated that there were 20 people in the Kinkaku Force following Tobirama and his team. Darui sealed Ginkaku after catching him off guard so I dont see how it matters, Gold and Silver dont exactly have many feats anyway.



18 ninjas + Kinkkaku and Ginkkaku.

Darui is able to caught someone able to fight Tobirama off guard, how isn't that a feat? You know who Tobirama is?

Not many feats?
Hatake Sakumo vs Konohamaru, who wins? One has the feats, the other has the power scaling. Try to make sense.

The Kin-Gin bros killed the secon Raikage, and the second Hokage. They fought the Kyubi and survived gaining amazing powers. They stole Rikudo's weapons and were able to use them without troubles.

Yeah, they are fodders.


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## Ennoia (Aug 12, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry you're not going to strawman me, you said they ran away and they clearly beat 2 Kage bodyguards without the help of Kimimaro. Its absurd to think one bodyguard is going to beat them with someone that has the potential to solo that bodyguard (Kimimaro) as Kimimaro beat all of S4 to near death.



> 18 ninjas + Kinkkaku and Ginkkaku.


My point still stands, Kinkaku and Ginkaku arnt likely to be running around with low level ninja.



> Darui is able to caught someone able to fight Tobirama off guard, how isn't that a feat? You know who Tobirama is?


Ginkaku literally turned his back to Darui and didnt  take him serious the whole time. Blindsiding someone that dosent care about your existence is not a feat.



> Not many feats?
> Hatake Sakumo vs Konohamaru, who wins? One has the feats, the other has the power scaling. Try to make sense.
> 
> The Kin-Gin bros killed the secon Raikage, and the second Hokage. They fought the Kyubi and survived gaining amazing powers. They stole Rikudo's weapons and were able to use them without troubles.
> ...


Scaling dosent work in this case because we dont know how far to scale, Gold and Silver + other ninja fought Tobirama, that dosent automatically make them top fighters in Narutoverse. If that were the case Kakuzu would be one of the strongest people in the manga surviving Hashirama the same way Madara did. Using chakra taxing weapons also dosent make you elite, it means you have a lot of chakra; you can have bijuu level chakra and not know how to do a single hand seal.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 12, 2013)

People saying Kimi alone would win are being equally as ridiculous as people saying Darui stomps. Darui is above any of the Sound 5 Individually by a large margin, that included Kimi, because the OP did not make Kimi "healthy" which his only chance of being able to fight on par with Solid Jonin level fighters, let alone Darui whose among the top Jonin we've seen in the manga.

However the Sound 5's abilities combined can be dangerous Kabuto proved as much & yes Kabuto was enhancing them with Senjutsu, but Darui is a far cry from Edo Itachi + EMS Sasuke himself, so I think even w/o Senjutsu enhancement they will be dangerous for him.

A combo like Kidomaru releasing his spiders/webs to slow down or distract Darui, while Kimi releases his bones from beneath him, and Jirobu throws some massive bolder form over head, meanwhile Sakon/ukon move through those bones look for a chance to transfer into Darui's body to assassinate him, & Tayuya casting her sound Genjutsu is more than enough to potentialy kill Darui. Hell something as simple as Sakon/Ukon fusing with Kimi who goes in for CQC, while Kidomaru snipes and Jirobu throws Darui off balance with his Doton would be deadly.

While on the other hand with things like Violet Barrier, Roshomon, Doton Wall, and bone armors his enemies are stack very well defensively to survive quite a few of his Jutsu. Ranton would be the most dangerous as it could be guided around something like Roshomon, but I don't think a few Ranton would be enough to kill someone with Jirobo's CS2 physicality (He tanked Choji falling on him and than lifted him up with 1 hand) and Sakon/Ukon could hide inside Kimi, who can also probably tank some Ranton with Bone Armor. Meanwhile Kidomaru should be far enough away as a sniper where he wouldn't get hurt  & Tayuya can meat shield with her Oni.

So I lean towards Sound 5, but Darui is not stomp & could still pull of a win with extremely high difficulty. Yes I know Darui is a top Jonin and these guys are Chuunin level, but it's 4 Chuunin + 1 Sick Jonin with excellent teamwork and I think that's enough to take down a top Jonin.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Turin what feats or what at all suggest anything darui has cab harm kimi
Laser circus is featless it barely damaged kinkaku who is less durable than kimi 
black lightning only burnt zetsu who again are far less durable than kimi

People are using rank and portrayal to determine a person battle power 

Kakuzu like you said survived hashirama and this was before obtaining earth grudge 
Won't that make kakuzu easily and I mean easily far above the level people place him at ?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Darui and Kimimaro are equal.

Everyone is gonna hate me.


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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2013)

Everyone but me don't worry I agree with you 
They are the same level however I think kimi is well suited to fight and beat darui 
Same way I would say hebi is the same level however his genjutsu haxx makes him suited to beat kimi


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 12, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Everyone but me don't worry I agree with you
> They are the same level however I think kimi is well suited to fight and beat darui
> Same way I would say hebi is the same level however his genjutsu haxx makes him suited to beat kimi



I agree about Kimi, as I detailed in the Asuma thread. However, I actually think that it was only pre-Orochimaru merge Hebi Sasuke that was the same level as Kimi. I believe that by the time he fought Deidara, with Orochimaru's powers and possible improvement to his shape manipulated Raiton, he had become stronger and was now firmly situated in the mid Kage tier, which I believe that Kimimaro was only floating near.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Sorry you're not going to strawman me, you said they ran away and they clearly beat 2 Kage bodyguards without the help of Kimimaro. Its absurd to think one bodyguard is going to beat them with someone that has the potential to solo that bodyguard (Kimimaro) as Kimimaro beat all of S4 to near death.



Beat? They ended just as bad as the kage guards, despite the fact that they were fresh and the kage guards were already exhausted before their fight.



Ennoia said:


> Ginkaku literally turned his back to Darui and didnt  take him serious the whole time. Blindsiding someone that dosent care about your existence is not a feat.



Yes It is. Being able to make your enemy understimate you It' a talent only a few have in the manga.



Ennoia said:


> Scaling dosent work in this case because we dont know how far to scale, Gold and Silver + other ninja fought Tobirama, that dosent automatically make them top fighters in Narutoverse. If that were the case Kakuzu would be one of the strongest people in the manga surviving Hashirama the same way Madara did. Using chakra taxing weapons also dosent make you elite, it means you have a lot of chakra; you can have bijuu level chakra and not know how to do a single hand seal.



Kinkkaku took almost 20000 elite jounin by himself, but yeah he doesn't have feats to put him anywhere above chuunin level.

And they didn't only swing the Rikudo weapons around, they learned how they should be use and create some tactics for them.



Turrin said:


> So I lean towards Sound 5, but Darui is not stomp & could still pull of a win with extremely high difficulty. Yes I know Darui is a top Jonin and these guys are Chuunin level, but it's 4 Chuunin + 1 Sick Jonin *with excellent teamwork* and I think that's enough to take down a top Jonin.



When has that supposed excellent teamwork happened? 

They hate each other and they have shown great team work creating barriers.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Darui and Kimimaro are equal.
> 
> Everyone is gonna hate me.



Kimi is easily low kage level when he isn't sick.
Darui just appears to be an elite jounin.



Zuhaitz said:


> Yes It is. Being able to make your enemy understimate you It' a talent only a few have in the manga.



Are you kidding?  We see lower level ninja do surprise attacks on higher level ninja all the time.  It doesn't mean they are equal. :

In part 1 this is said, "When doing an ambush the opponents level doesn't matter".

Darui's fight against the gold and silver brothers was 100% plot no jutsu or 100% luck if you prefer.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Kimi is easily low kage level when he isn't sick.
> Darui just appears to be an elite jounin.



Which Kage is Kimimaro equal to? Because if he is low Kage level, then he must be equal to at least the lowest of the Kages 



Jackashflash said:


> Are you kidding?  We see lower level ninja do surprise attacks on higher level ninja all the time.  It doesn't mean they are equal. :
> 
> In part 1 this is said, "When doing an ambush the opponents level doesn't matter".
> 
> Darui's fight against the gold and silver brothers was 100% plot no jutsu or 100% luck if you prefer.




Having a chance to caught someone by surprise doesn't make his equal, but being able to use that chance and defeat the enemy does make at least almost as powerful, with few exceptions.

And lol, Kimimaro not being one shoot by Lee was 100% plot no jutsu, or 100% luck if you prefer. Just wanted to know how It feel to use an absurd point to try to debunk valid feats.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Which Kage is Kimimaro equal to? Because if he is low Kage level, then he must be equal to at least the lowest of the Kages


False.  The minimum requirement of being a Kage doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the current kage 




Zuhaitz said:


> Having a chance to caught someone by surprise doesn't make his equal, but being able to use that chance and defeat the enemy does make at least almost as powerful, with few exceptions.
> 
> And lol, Kimimaro not being one shoot by Lee was 100% plot no jutsu, or 100% luck if you prefer. Just wanted to know how It feel to use an absurd point to try to debunk valid feats.


Not when you win with some stupid hacks gourd. 
I like how you ignored all my points and corrections.  


I think ice is right, this is pointless.
Your understanding of the series is abysmal or you are just trolling.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> False.  The minimum requirement of being a Kage doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the current kage



THe minimum requirement to be Kage level is to be at least as powerful as the weakest known Kage. Kimimaro isn't kage level because he is weaker than the weakest kage ever,

Ice, the same as you, were proved wrong in the Kurenai vs Neji poll


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> THe minimum requirement to be Kage level is to be at least as powerful as the weakest known Kage. Kimimaro isn't kage level because he is weaker than the weakest kage ever,



That is so beyond wrong...


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> That is so beyond wrong...





So your requirement to be kage level (not rank, but level) doesn't include the necessity of being at least equally powerful with the weakest Kage.



I guess Konohamaru is Kage level, because, why not?


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## Alex Payne (Aug 13, 2013)

Healthy Kimimaro is unquantifiable. Would he be faster? Maybe, maybe not. Would he be stronger physically? Maybe, maybe not. The only known factor is his stamina - healthy Kimi wouldn't drop dead from prolonged fighting and would likely last a good deal longer. Kimimaro showed his whole arsenal(he had no reason to hold back against Gaara) and all his skills in Taijutsu. Those are not affected by his condition. 

There are no Kages who are going to struggle against Part 1 out-of-surgery Lee. There are none. You can gimp their stamina all day. All known Kages are going to one shot SRA Naruto, then one-shot weakened Lee and then one-shot SRA Gaara before he could amass enough sand to at least bother a few Kages. 

Kimimaro had potential and awesome bloodline. He was on his way to "Kage-lvl" but didn't reach it. Allow illness-free Kimimaro to live through time-skip and train together with Oro - _that_ Kimimaro is going to be comparable to Hebi Sasuke(who is underrated by many imo).

People should look at Kimi's place in the story and his opponents. He was an obstacle for _Part 1_ best Rookies and Gaara. What kind of an illness is going to reduce "Kage-lvl" to that? You can take drugged Jiraiya and he is still going to stomp Kimi's opponents.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Being nearly dead won't effect your ability to fight....


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## Alex Payne (Aug 13, 2013)

We don't know how exactly Kimimaro was "nearly dead". That's the point. Many people like to use Kabuto's words about Kimi being "unstoppable". Why would someone with in depth knowledge on Kimimaro's condition be so sure? Maybe because Kimi wasn't as gimped as some believe?


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Please list one illness that will kill you within one hour that doesn't affect your physical condition at the time?

It is nonsensical.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 13, 2013)

Kimimaro's DB entry 





> p.3
> ---
> 
> 
> ...



Classic shonen-manga gimp that affects performance only when plot requires. Kishi wanted both Kimimaro and Gaara to look good. Gaara barely surviving ~10% Kimimaro who was eventually killed by the illness is pointless. Kimimaro fighting at his best(his devotion to Orochimaru is pseudo-Will of Fire and we saw numerous times what kind of effect it has on performance) and nearly beating Gaara but dying to illness - that makes both contestant look good, which was Kishi's intention imo.


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

Thank you jack
Jiraiya with his chakra screwed up just his chakra wasn't half as good as he usually is. He couldn't even sink a fodder snake. Now kimi being dead man walking somehow doesn't affect him because he was a part 1 character 
Please the bias is obvious. Anyways most of these people think any part 1 character is fodder
What next Zabuza looses to current C or the lil shark


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

alex payne;48144878[B said:
			
		

> ]People should look at Kimi's place in the story and his opponents. He was an obstacle for _Part 1_ best Rookies and Gaara. What kind of an illness is going to reduce "Kage-lvl" to that? You can take drugged Jiraiya and he is still going to stomp Kimi's opponents.[/B]



It can't be explained any better.


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## Baroxio (Aug 13, 2013)

alex payne said:
			
		

> He was an obstacle for Part 1 best Rookies and Gaara. What kind of an illness is going to reduce "Kage-lvl" to that?


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## Jackashflash (Aug 13, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> It can't be explained any better.



You kids have obviously never seen someone deathly ill.
Lucky you.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 13, 2013)

Baroxio said:


>


Place Gaara on that roof inside the barrier. His performance would be laughable. 





Jackashflash said:


> You kids have obviously never seen someone deathly ill.
> Lucky you.


Real Life =/= Shonen Manga


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## Baroxio (Aug 13, 2013)

So you're saying that Gaara is only "situationally" not Kage Level? As in, that there are some situations where he IS Kage level? Such as the situation against Kimimaro?


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## Alex Payne (Aug 13, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> So you're saying that Gaara is only "situationally" not Kage Level? As in, that there are some situations where he IS Kage level? Such as the situation against Kimimaro?


I am saying that you shouldn't use out-of-context feats from Hiruzen's fight for Kage-notKage debate. Bringer of Darkness, Birth of Trees(gimped by the barrier), Enma's feats of protecting from Mokuton and destroying said Mokuton, general level of speed showcased - why didn't you use that? Large scale jutsu ain't everything. SRA Gaara can go into Kage-mode though - with Full Form Shukaku. Something that wasn't used and something Kimimaro has no answer to.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 13, 2013)

Baroxio said:


>



Because size = power 

Gaara's attack was bigger, not more powerful. 

Chouji can make himself giant, so based on your logic he should be above Minato's level whose jutsus are small 



Jackashflash said:


> You kids have obviously never seen someone deathly ill.
> Lucky you.



I have, and you better be cautious with those topics, you may offend someone.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 13, 2013)

Kimimaro fighting Lee, Naruto & Gaara was arguably in the same if not worse condition than Itachi was when he fought Sasuke.. it's a MAJOR performance reducer. The man was *literally* willing his body to function.

That being said by hype Kimimaro was a low, possibly mid lvl kage. Kabuto stated the invasion would have gone flawless with him and Jugo directly compared him to Hebi Sasuke via the CS2 skill who is VERY much a solid mid lvl kage. I'd say it's completely plausible that a hyped perfectly healthy Kimimaro could give your low-mid level kage a decent fight

Feat wise though his elite Jonin, i'd put him in the same ball park as Darui


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

If not for part 1 vs part 2 character bias most would agree that kimi can beat Mei
lava won't be hard to avoid and acid mist will surely melt him however bracken dance will kill her with more ease 
as for the thread again it's character hype with no feats that let people think he can beat 5 ninja who actually where at the very least Chunin level (jirobo) the likes of kidomaru where said to be much much stronger than jirobo Who even the haters agree is Chunin level ( see chapter 193 for reference on that ) . jirobo clearly outclassed the genin so he is well established as a Chunin 
Now kimi is stronger than all 4 combined in base and somehow darui far outclasses him please that's BS darui ,  would have problem Beating kid jugo in cs2 
The same jugo that is well below kimi. Clear bias walking around here 

If you don't think kidomaru is  above Chunin level who wins him or shino , who wins him or kiba, him vs ino , who wins him vs omoi 

The characters I mentioned are all Chunin level and kidomaru walks over them. again no reason to believe darui can beat 1 Chunin level + 3 above Chunin + 1 who can beat all 4 with ease . You clearly overrate darui whose best feat was burning a few zetsu  and knocking back kinkaku. 

Like how zuhaitz forgets team 10 helped darui win .


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## Axiom (Aug 13, 2013)

Can't see Kimi beating Mei in any even knowledge scenario.  Mei's suitons were throwing around Madara's V3 Susano'o and stopping his massive Katons and her acid mist was burning straight through Sasuke's Susano'o.  Her Yoton was threatening Madara, too.

If it's a no knowledge battle, Kimi takes too many injuries before he can ever get to bracken dance, and it's a full knowledge battle, Mei can counter the bones while they're popping up with lava, or she can stay out of its range and attack with Suitons from a distance.

Anyway, I view Kimi, Asuma, and Darui all as Elite Jonin, which means the Sound Five should take this fight mid-high difficulty as long as Kimi doesn't let Darui speed blitz the Sound Four right at the match's beginning, which I don't think he would.


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## Icegaze (Aug 13, 2013)

Axiom said:


> Can't see Kimi beating Mei in any even knowledge scenario.  Mei's suitons were throwing around Madara's V3 Susano'o and stopping his massive Katons and her acid mist was burning straight through Sasuke's Susano'o.  Her Yoton was threatening Madara, too.
> 
> If it's a no knowledge battle, Kimi takes too many injuries before he can ever get to bracken dance, and it's a full knowledge battle, Mei can counter the bones while they're popping up with lava, or she can stay out of its range and attack with Suitons from a distance.
> 
> Anyway, I view Kimi, Asuma, and Darui all as Elite Jonin, which means the Sound Five should take this fight mid-high difficulty as long as Kimi doesn't let Darui speed blitz the Sound Four right at the match's beginning, which I don't think he would.



I agree with most of what you say 
Disagree on the suiton being a factor suiton couldn't even damage Zabuza 

Also why would kimi waste time using bracken dance once he realises she fights at a distance and uses lava , he would have to be stupid to keep trying to come close 

Kimi would use bracken dance right after seeing lava

Like I said the rest I agree with


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 14, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> I agree with most of what you say
> Disagree on the suiton being a factor suiton couldn't even damage Zabuza
> 
> Also why would kimi waste time using bracken dance once he realises she fights at a distance and uses lava , he would have to be stupid to keep trying to come close
> ...



He did seem damaged here:


And till this moment the only person to be able to break the water prison is Neji, and not due to his brute force I must add.


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## Jackashflash (Aug 14, 2013)

Darui has no feats and mediocre hype.
There really is no reason to assume he is anymore than a fodder jounin with connections.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 14, 2013)

Jackashflash said:


> Darui has no feats and mediocre hype.
> There really is no reason to assume he is anymore than a fodder jounin with connections.



This goes to my sign, thanks a lot.


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## Icegaze (Aug 14, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> He did seem damaged here:
> 
> 
> And till this moment the only person to be able to break the water prison is Neji, and not due to his brute force I must add.



Kimi is far far more durable than Zabuza do u need panel evidence to show the obvious ?
What damaged Zabuza where the kunai kakashi used to keep him stuck to the tree


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 15, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Kimi is far far more durable than Zabuza do u need panel evidence to show the obvious ?
> What damaged Zabuza where the kunai kakashi used to keep him stuck to the tree



Have I say that suitons will damage Kimimaro?

On the other hand suiton + raiton would push Kimimaro back, not allowing him to get close.

While Black lighting, the 3rd Raikage's jutsus, would surely affect Kimimaro despite with overestimated durability that allowed him to survive the attacks of a 11 years old kid.


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## Stermor (Aug 15, 2013)

lol darui is fast enough to contest with 6 tailed jinchuuriki's.. 

and the fastest guy they got is kimimaro.. who is slower then just out of the hospital lee.. 

end result is darui and pretty much every other elite jounin/kage lvl opponent casually destroys the sound 5...


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Have I say that suitons will damage Kimimaro?
> 
> On the other hand suiton + raiton would push Kimimaro back, not allowing him to get close.
> 
> While Black lighting, the 3rd Raikage's jutsus, would surely affect Kimimaro despite with overestimated durability that allowed him to survive the attacks of a 11 years old kid.



You mean the same black lightning that merely burnt Fodder zetsu, same zetsu  that even kiba attacks were splitting in half ? That black lightning suuuuuuure it kills kimi because of all the panels saying it would

Again SnM makes the fields kimi's at which point darui would be hard pressed to win 

not sayin darui can't win but the implication that black lightning with zero feats can damage kimi simply because he faced genin which weren't even genin level is ridiculous 

You didn't see black lightning ripping fodder zetsu in half only shocking them

So yes kimi can be shocked and numbed but how does that kill him ?


----------



## Stermor (Aug 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Kimimaro fighting Lee, Naruto & Gaara was arguably in the same if not worse condition than Itachi was when he fought Sasuke.. it's a MAJOR performance reducer. The man was *literally* willing his body to function



agreed.. but how would you know how strong he is in his prime?? it is always going to be fanfic of various lvl depending on who you are talking to.... 



Joakim3 said:


> That being said by hype Kimimaro was a low, possibly mid lvl kage. Kabuto stated the invasion would have gone flawless with him and Jugo directly compared him to Hebi Sasuke via the CS2 skill who is VERY much a solid mid lvl kage. I'd say it's completely plausible that a hyped perfectly healthy Kimimaro could give your low-mid level kage a decent fight



could be.. but we know kabuto's statement is false.. if need be kimimaro would be slaughtered by a 7 gated gai.. or defeated by the ino shika cho or danzo could casually put some holes in him.. konoha has plenty of people capable of taking out a cqc fighter of that lvl(even if he was kage lvl)..  

jugo's statement could also be taken in a various different ways(resulting in various lvl of speed)

anyway this all ammount to some lvl of fanfic.. 



Joakim3 said:


> Feat wise though his elite Jonin, i'd put him in the same ball park as Darui



feat wise.. he sucks.. he was slower then pre skip lee.. something any elite jounin(even kurenai) can casually blitz.. he has a very strong defense feat wise.. 

anyway sound 5 should NEVER be put against elite jounin/kage lvl opponents.. the sound 4 are just to weak.. and while kimimaro in his prime could maybe deal them.. we have no idee and therefor can't use it.. and the feats we do have off him are extremly weak...


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## Magicbullet (Aug 15, 2013)

Without C he loses, with C they probably win with moderate to high difficulty.


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## Stermor (Aug 15, 2013)

Magicbullet said:


> Without C he loses, with C they probably win with moderate to high difficulty.



why? what would c bring to the table?? that darui requires to beat the sound 5?? since as far as i'm concerned the only problem he is going to have is permanently killing kimimaro.. 

the rest of the sound 4 is getting killed before they can react..


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

The sound 4 get killed with darui magic speed 
Why can't kidomaru and Tayuya run away while jirobo and sakon engage ??

Tayuya and kidomaru know that they are long range experts so why let the enemy come close to you when he has to cut down 3 people who would engage him . One being kimi which he would find very hard to kill 

So saying sound 4 get lol blitz is BS. They get blitz all 4 of them if they engage however darui isn't blitzing kidomaru when kidomaru is 30m up in a tree away from him


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## Ennoia (Aug 15, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> durability that allowed him to survive the attacks of a 11 years old kid.



You bring up age like it matters; Itachi was Anbu as a kid yet no one would be using the "he lost to a child" argument if he beat someone.


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## Stermor (Aug 15, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> The sound 4 get killed with darui magic speed
> Why can't kidomaru and Tayuya run away while jirobo and sakon engage ??
> 
> Tayuya and kidomaru know that they are long range experts so why let the enemy come close to you when he has to cut down 3 people who would engage him . One being kimi which he would find very hard to kill
> ...



oke you do understand sasuke somebody who was capable of fighting all 4 of the sound 4 at the same time.. was utterly blitzed by pre skip kakashi(equalizing him with darui for comfort) not really seeing what is going to change here.. 

naruto and sasuke actually stated they couldn't do a thing.. 

look you can say that he can't blitz all 5 of them at the same time.  but kakashi blitzed both naruto and sasuke at the same time.. pretty sure darui could atleast blitz 2 of them.. before they could react.. 

and really how far are the others going to flee before he moves on to them??? 

look a while ago there was a threat and which point the sound 4 would be incapitated by killing intent alone.. several people thought darui would be capable of that.. pretty much if you are capable of that.. it is not a fair matchup..


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You bring up age like it matters; Itachi was Anbu as a kid yet no one would be using the "he lost to a child" argument if he beat someone.



the guy cant argue. Itachi beat orochimaru when he was a teenager. does that mean that anyone above 19 can beat orochimaru now.  the guy is a comic i wont lie 

what does age have to do with power or skill, the 2 arent mutually inclusive. Itachi is much younger than jiraiya yet the entire NF is split fairly evenly on who would win despite jiriaya being more than 20 years older. I guess it means anyone 10 years than itachi can beat jiriaya. Thats how the guy argues. 

He fails to answer how kidomaru gets blitzd when, kidomaru from the offset is moving as far away from darui as possible in order to set up shop for his ambush attacks. Since with knowledge kidomaru would know he cant compete with darui in CQC.  The way the guy argues is comical because he believes all 4 of them woudl just stand there and surrender their necks when they can take a back seat and let kimi handle business while they try to exploit openings. 

But no apparently darui magic speed allows him to zip past kimimaro kill all 4 without the whole sound 5 being able to react and then its C +darui vs kimi in which kimi looses despite darui having no feats to suggest he can kill kimi.  You gotta love the guy  he should be my lawyer!!! 

lets not forget his black lightning is the 3rd jutsu therefore its super powerful and can 1 shot or damage kimi despite no feats suggesting such.  yet maybe if he had intelligence he would know that perhaps darui hasnt mastered it to the 3rd level. 

Its like saying lee learnt gates, from gai therefore he can use hirudora just as efficiently or even open 7th gate. Lee still hasnt shown he can open the 6th. 

Finally ill repeat it once more black lightning best feat is burning up a few zetsu
laser circus best feat is knocking base kinkaku back. Lets compare how a steal sword fared against base kinkaku. Oh yh it cut his arm off. 

now we know kimi bones are at the very least as hard, sharp and dense as steal So no kimimaro bones dont need piercing feats to say they can kill darui. Because a kunai can kill darui if he gets one in the chest. 

The difference is darui jutsu dont have the feats of harming anyone lethally.  So if we are using portrayals to determine the level of a ninja based on who he faced.  then its obvious such matches shouldnt even be allowed because any part 2 character  is automatically above kimimaro. That includes chouji, when he fought kakuzu masks.


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## Stermor (Aug 15, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> the guy cant argue. Itachi beat orochimaru when he was a teenager. does that mean that anyone above 19 can beat orochimaru now.  the guy is a comic i wont lie
> 
> what does age have to do with power or skill, the 2 arent mutually inclusive. Itachi is much younger than jiraiya yet the entire NF is split fairly evenly on who would win despite jiriaya being more than 20 years older. I guess it means anyone 10 years than itachi can beat jiriaya. Thats how the guy argues.
> 
> ...



just because kidomaru would run from a fight doesn't mean he can't be blitzed.. when we know people of similar speed of darui can blitz people faster then the sound 4 without them beeing able to react... you know that not beeing able to react means they can't run either... right????

you got to show feats of them reaction or even moving fast enough to do anything.. which don't excist btw... so blitzing is perfectly viable.. 

and yes we all know part 2 inflated alot.. and yes this means nearly all named people we know are much stronger then kimimaro.. but chouji didn't get strong enough to take out kimi until the war arc... at which point he was pretty solid jounin in combat power..


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> just because kidomaru would run from a fight doesn't mean he can't be blitzed.. when we know people of similar speed of darui can blitz people faster then the sound 4 without them beeing able to react... you know that not beeing able to react means they can't run either... right????
> 
> you got to show feats of them reaction or even moving fast enough to do anything.. which don't excist btw... so blitzing is perfectly viable..
> 
> and yes we all know part 2 inflated alot.. and yes this means nearly all named people we know are much stronger then kimimaro.. but chouji didn't get strong enough to take out kimi until the war arc... at which point he was pretty solid jounin in combat power..



wait so you have feats which suggest darui can blitz 4 chunin level ninja??? please show these feats. You also know that being much  much slower than your opponent doesnt stop you from reacting right. 

take jugo and V1 Ei, jugo has quite obviously slower footspeed, however he still put his arm up to defend himself.  So no there is nothing to suggest that darui can blitz all 4 of them without any of them being able to get away, also consider the fact that blitzing kimi is fun but he cant kill him or beat him in CQC. 

people being physically faster than someone doesnt mean you can out do them in CQC. take base lee vs Neji,  base lee is much much faster than neji yet neji trolls lee. 
lee and gai agreed lee needs 5th gate to beat neji. So you would have to be exponentially faster than your opponent to out do them in CQC if you have less skill than them in that department. again darui is attack with 1 sword, kimimaro can spin at random and have about 20 swords coming at darui. 

So no nothing in the manga at all suggests darui can cut kimi time and time again without kimi being able to react

nothing suggest darui can slaughter all 4 without them being able to do anything at all or even try gettign away while darui is focused on another one. 

thinking darui can kill all 4 off the bat is just silly common, thnk about it. 

the speed gap between V1 Ei and jugo has to be larger than the speed gap between darui and the sound 4.  also note not all of the sound 4 are at the same level, kidomaru is >>>>jirobo stated in chapter 193. So are the others so yes, jirobo being lol blitz is easy to understand because he is going to run in to attack. However neither tayuya or kidomaru run in to attack

So stop using suggestive weird calculations or what ever you are using to suggest darui zips past kimi, and kills all 4 without them being able to do anything. That simply hasnt even be remotely implied


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## Stermor (Aug 15, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> wait so you have feats which suggest darui can blitz 4 chunin level ninja??? please show these feats. You also know that being much  much slower than your opponent doesnt stop you from reacting right.
> 
> take jugo and V1 Ei, jugo has quite obviously slower footspeed, however he still put his arm up to defend himself.  So no there is nothing to suggest that darui can blitz all 4 of them without any of them being able to get away, also consider the fact that blitzing kimi is fun but he cant kill him or beat him in CQC.
> 
> ...



lets make it easy

sasuke and naruto getting blitzed by pre skip kakashi( darui having similar speed)
Kisame can move

that same sasuke doing fine against all of the sound 4..... 
Kisame can move
Kisame can move
sasuke even stating he is holding back on them.....
Kisame can move

anyway sasuke was casually getting blitzed by somebody of similar speed to darui.. 

then sasuke keeping up and even winning against all of the sound 4.. 

you see why blitzing is perfectly possible here??


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> lets make it easy
> 
> sasuke and naruto getting blitzed by pre skip kakashi( darui having similar speed)
> *massive collateral damage*
> ...



Are you suggesting that a fodder with some connections like Darui can even hope to blitz the guys that were killed by the children of Konoha when they were low chuunin level at most?

What else? Are you going to suggest that someone able to react to V1 A, MS  Sasuke or V2 Jinchuurikis is faster than Kimimaro?
 You are delusional


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Are you suggesting that a fodder with some connections like Darui can even hope to blitz the guys that were killed by the children of Konoha when they were low chuunin level at most?
> 
> What else? Are you going to suggest that someone able to react to V1 A, MS  Sasuke or V2 Jinchuurikis is faster than Kimimaro?
> You are delusional



You are a simpleton 
I never suggested that the fact that they should be able to react to darui makes them as fast or remotely as fast . See my jugo vs Ei example . Jugo is much slower yet still reacted to Ei attack 

What you suggest is ridiculous your saying darui is so fast he can cut all 4 with 4 swings without them being able to move from their start position and without kimi being able to see darui even move towards them . I mean if you think that then no point arguing with you . Kishi manga disagrees with u

Example 1) jugo vs Ei Ei is much faster jugo reacted
2) lee vs kimi , lee is faster kimi reacted 
3) killer bee vs sasuke , sasuke reacted 
4) Ei vs suigestsu suigestsu reacted 

So far most slower opponents have not Much issue reacting to people much faster than themselves 

What u suggest is silly. All 4 stand there without moving an inch while magic spee darui slices 4 of them in 4 swipes  

Like I said kido and Tayuya would never attempt engaging darui and would be jumping back full throttle while the others engage . common sense !! 

Like I said if all 4 engage they get blitz and killed . However the further away they are the more time they have to react . OP gave knowledge if they know who darui is why come close ?


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> You are a simpleton
> I never suggested that the fact that they should be able to react to darui makes them as fast or remotely as fast . See my jugo vs Ei example . Jugo is much slower yet still reacted to Ei attack



Are they as fast as Juugo?  



Icegaze said:


> What you suggest is ridiculous your saying darui is so fast he can cut all 4 with 4 swings without them being able to move from their start position and without kimi being able to see darui even move towards them . I mean if you think that then no point arguing with you . Kishi manga disagrees with u
> 
> Example 1) jugo vs Ei Ei is much faster jugo reacted
> 2) lee vs kimi , lee is faster kimi reacted
> ...



1-Not even Kimimaro is as fast or has the reflex of Juugo.
2-Darui is leagues faster than post operated Lee.
3-Not even Kimimaro can react to even Sasuke's speed.
4-Suigetsu and Juugo did not react, they did not fall under C's genjutsu and predicted Raikage's and Darui's next move.



Icegaze said:


> So far most slower opponents have not Much issue reacting to people much faster than themselves
> 
> What u suggest is silly. All 4 stand there without moving an inch while magic spee darui slices 4 of them in 4 swipes



If a character X has 5 in movement speed and 5 in reaction speed.
And Y character has 6 in reaction speed and 3 in movement speed.

They can fight and there will be no blitz.

If Z character has 5 in movement speed and 7 in reaction speed.
And W character has 6 in reaction speed and 3 in movement speed.

Z will overpseed W and hit him in a short time. W can react to Z's movements, but Z can react to W's counters and act in concordance.

If T character has 7 in reaction speed and movement speed.
And R character has 5 in reaction speed and 3 in movement speed.

There will be a blitz.

In this case the second and third cases happen. Darui's speed is above the sound's 4 reaction speed, and Darui's movement speed is below Kimimaro's reaction speed, but Darui's reaction speed is higher than Kimimaro's reaction speed.

So yeah, Darui can blitz the sound 4 whose reflex weren't that great, and can overspeed Kimimaro after a few moves.



Icegaze said:


> Like I said kido and Tayuya would never attempt engaging darui and would be jumping back full throttle while the others engage . common sense !!
> 
> Like I said if all 4 engage they get blitz and killed . However the further away they are the more time they have to react . OP gave knowledge if they know who darui is why come close ?



Darui's gale jutsus are much faster than Darui himself, and fast enough to caught and hit Kido and Tayuya before they can even jump back once.


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Are they as fast as Juugo?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



sorry what, 6 in reaction speed what are you even talking about.  

again i need to emphasize since you are slow to get this darui being faster doesnt suddenly mean he can slay all 4 of them without any of them and kimimaro being able to do the slightest thing about it.  

is darui as fast as V1 EI??? keeping up with V1 Ei attack in a combined effort doesnt suddenly make him that fast. Would be like assuming base gai is KCM naruto speed which would make him faster than Ei which again is ridiculous 

Ill say this again darui cannot blitz all 4 without the slighest reaction from them 

would you say V2 Ei can blitz punch 4 asuma's without any of them even the last one being able to take a step back or at least swing hien in a effort to not die? 

if you think Ei can then clearly it explains alot. Your a speed beats all kind of guy while kishi thoroughly and through out the manga disagrees with you.  despite Ei being so much faster than madara when fighting 5 clones he did get caught did he not? 

darui has to deal with multiple people and multiple attacks its unreasonable to say he breezes through 

genma was minato bodyguard the equivalent of darui more or less granted he was low on chakra but him and raido were the ones sent to hospital. Genma fought baki and wasnt 1 shotted baki is a high ranked jounin in the sand so genma is no push over. 

running low on chakra doesnt mean defenseless. naruto was running low on chakra against the 3rd it didnt stop him from using FRS. the same naruto was running low again against obito didnt stop the mini bijuudama or anything else he did. 

SO no genma wasnt some defenseless puppy they failed to kill. 

I see it going like this. 

C uses genjtusu, darui closes in. ( again the implication that darui would full speed dash at 5 opponents is unfounded, he isnt like Ei he thinks) 
Tayuya and kidomaru( who is smart break out) why, cursed seal...change in chakra flow breaks genjutsu. jirobo at this point gets killed by darui and sakon and ukon  are split in half however didnt die. They can survive being split in half. Kimi would also know to counter genjutsu

at this point kimi would engage darui, and darui will engage kimi because it makes the most sense to take out the biggest threat does it not? Especially if the threat is trying to face you. 

kidomaru and tayuya are safely away at this point mind you. cuz lord knows they wont even want to be anywhere close to kimimaro when he fights. 

 tayuya genjtusu which i doubt darui can break  gives kimi the opening to kill darui. 

 Please note C is a none factor here all he has is 1 genjutsu feat which pales in comparison to tayuya genjtusu

Again it doesnt have to go like that but just saying the assumption that because darui is faster he attempts blitzing 4 people is ridiculously unfounded. 

Ei is the only one who even attempts such because he knows he is the fastest person he also knows its all too likely he kills who is fighting with a punch. 

Darui has options so why would he attempt blitizing 5 people ? its these options darui will consider. And its far more likely darui uses laser circus to attack multiple opponents than running in at them. 

Look at my sig am the darui fan here and nothing suggests he is going to run in at people like that. Even in the kage summit he waited for C genjutsu. 

Again bone forest which kimi wont have an issue using can tip the scales here. 

if kidomaru is up in a tree using his web controlled arrow you cant tell me darui easily counters that. Kidomaru would move around the entire area looking for a blind spot. Thats how he fights. 

despite neji blitzing him a few panels before, kidomaru had no issue using shunshin to get up on a tree and set up traps that even the byakugan didnt see coming.

now if darui uses laser circus against 5 people far far more likely mind  you. 
 you cant tell me it kills sakon, or tayuya or kidomaru  because tayuya can see it coming and summon doki. summoning is quick. Its the same way people suggest jiraiya can summon to protect himself from amaterasu. 

 Now please remember darui has to control them round the doki( in the mean time he has targeted  4 other people. ) find it hard to believe he hits all of them when he has his focus split like that.  sakon can heal from damage so its possible he doesnt die. Kidomaru has gold skin which blocks chakra. not saying that means he can tank all attacks. However please note laser circus best feat is knocking the enemy back 

So laser circus isnt doing squat to kimi either. 

knocking kinkaku back doesnt suddenly translate to laser circus making holes in the sound 4

to all of you saying darui blitz show me 1 panel in the entire manga where a faster character casually goes about blitzing a slower character without said character being able to put up a defense or see it coming. 

*Edit 1: The great blitz of naruto have been*

jugo vs Ei..jugo reacted

KCm vs kisame..who was fleeing- failed to reacted because he wasnt focused on naruto. 

Sasuke vs deidara deidara reacted

gated gai vs kisame kisame reacted

gated lee vs gaara gaara reacted...though it didnt help him much. However this is a special case because gaara isnt physically fast he had never needed to be. before lee had hadnt even been scratched so why work on your movement speed when you think nothing can touch you.  For the other ninja who dont have automatic protection they work at these things. 

Another one which trolls might bring up is :  kakashi vs part 1 sasuke during the bell exam .yes i am talking about when kakashi sat on him. He out did sasuke in CQC that wasnt a blitz. 

Its assumptions that a faster movement speed character cant be blocked reacted to by a slower movement speed character that makes BD tough sometimes. 

itachi vs KCM naruto you have people saying he didnt use his shunshin speed he wasnt taking it seriously ETC  

where are u using shunshin to if the enemy is right in front of u???  Ei being faster than base gai doesnt mean Ei punches gai while running circles round him. In CQC, its your skill that matters since clearly you arent using shunshin when the person is infront of you. That makes no sense at all to assume such which lots of trolls do. 

So finally yes, darui can get to any of the sound 5 before they can get to him because he is faster. However it doesnt mean he shunshin towards them cuts them without any attempting a dodge of some sort.  It is this same reason why lee wasnt punching kimi over and over again despite having faster footspeed.   

movement speed gets you to your enemy quicker and allows you to avoid attacks that about it.  it doesnt suddenly mean you can keep punching holes on a person while running round them. kishi has never displayed such. 

lee was faster than kimi yet couldnt land a hit on him till his style became unpredictable. kimi had no troubles reading lee direct approach. so being faster once more isnt all there is to battle .


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

To make it easy to understand even for you.
Yes, Ei can blitz Asuma.
Yes, Kakashi could blitz part I Sasuke and Naruto.
Yes, Kakashi, Asuma, Kurenai, Hayate and Gai could blitz Neji.
Yes, Sasuke could keep up with the sound 4.
Yes, Darui can blitz the sound 4.


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

A B C logic 
I miss the library section now 
 

Sasuke almost touched kakashi bell when fighting with him therefor genin sasuke taijutsu skill is Jounin level
That's how you argue 
Can someone please mediate and example to the kid why his argument is silly


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2013)

Really this match is Darui vs the bone man.

To which Darui wins.

He pawns the sound 4 with laser circuis, they are very fast and are guided they are not dodging it.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 16, 2013)

Darui can blitz the 4 individually, but not in this scenario.

I think kimi would win here & jirobou or tayuya as pawns would ensure this.

icegaze is correct about what kido would do, & it would work; theres no reason to believe darui can outclass kimi to the point he can successively blitz the 4 in kimis presence.


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 16, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Really this match is Darui vs the bone man.
> 
> To which Darui wins.
> 
> He pawns the sound 4 with laser circuis, they are very fast and are guided they are not dodging it.



This should have ended the thread.


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## Stermor (Aug 16, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Darui can blitz the 4 individually, but not in this scenario.
> 
> I think kimi would win here & jirobou or tayuya as pawns would ensure this.
> 
> icegaze is correct about what kido would do, & it would work; theres no reason to believe darui can outclass kimi to the point he can successively blitz the 4  succession in his presence.



why not ?? sasuke could take on all 4 of them at the same time.. even stating he was holding back.

and we already know that he can be blitzed before he can actually move a finger by somebody with similar speed to darui.. 

btw sasuke at the time has the speed as lee and therefor sasuke was still faster then kimimaro aswell.. 

i really don't understand what the problem is.. if sasuke is superior to all 4 of them at the same time.. and he was casually blitzed.. why would darui have a problem blitzing any of them.. 


lets repeat if for comfort again sound 5 SHOULD NEVER BE PUT UP AGAINST ELITE JOUNIN OR HIGHER!!!!!


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 16, 2013)

^ U didn't read my post or U simply don't understand my bad English...or U simply don't want to acknowledge my post content

sasuke & lee wtf?


sauce vs kimi? what?





> lets repeat if for comfort again sound 5 SHOULD NEVER BE PUT UP AGAINST ELITE JOUNIN OR HIGHER!!!!!


 take your agenda & go away


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> why not ?? sasuke could take on all 4 of them at the same time.. even stating he was holding back.
> 
> and we already know that he can be blitzed before he can actually move a finger by somebody with similar speed to darui..
> 
> ...



Yet when sasuke got serious sakon beat him with utter ease 
Please they weren't taking sasuke seriously at all

Sakon beat sasuke with utter ease. Why bring that up ? Read the manga

Sasuke was shocked he got pawned while using his copy lee technique 
He then said ill get serious and sakon ended it in 1 move 


Jesus people can't read the manga!!!


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## Stermor (Aug 16, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> ^ U didn't read my post or U simply don't understand my bad English...or U simply don't want to acknowledge my post content
> 
> sasuke & lee wtf?
> 
> ...



.......

i argued your point he couldn't blitz all of them... by stating sasuke was faster then all of them (even kimi) and darui could blitz that sasuke before he could react.. 

there is no reason to think that darui requires a cup of tea after he sticks a kunai in somebody.. he can keep going and they still wouldn't be able to react or move much... 

which i posted scans of... which make it pretty clear.. 

which makes any sound 5 match against elite matchup rape.. and we shouldn't be making those kinds of threats...


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> which makes any sound 5 match against elite matchup rape.. and we shouldn't be making those kinds of threats...



no, this is a somewhat balanced thread

U can ramble nonsensically & play apologist for lolpowerlevels & lolPTS-p'scaling all U want

on the contrary, this thread shouldn't be subjected to passive/indirect trolling becauz it offends your preference of fiction


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## Icegaze (Aug 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> .......
> 
> i argued your point he couldn't blitz all of them... by stating sasuke was faster then all of them (even kimi) and darui could blitz that sasuke before he could react..
> 
> ...



which sasuke is faster than all of them?? current sasuke ? he is also faster than darui so i fail to see your point. Darui blitz sasuke?? hahhahhahaahhahahahahah  when did that happen??

after the genjutsu that sasuke had to decipher? during that time? i guess that makes suigetsu faster than sasuke and Ei then since he intercepted Ei and i guess that makes jugo faster than sasuke and darui since jugo intercepted darui 

jugo and suigetsu are top tier blitz now....i wont wanna face them unless i had V2 Ei speed.  thats the sum total of you and the kids argument 

 you  are just as bad as the kid.

if you meant genin sasuke kept up with the sound 4 take a look 

*massive collateral damage*



1 on 1 against sakon 

*massive collateral damage*   yh sasuke took on all 4 and kept up with them my ass


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## Axiom (Aug 16, 2013)

I've already stated that I think S5 take this, but if you throw C in then the Kumo Duo should definitely take it.  Darui + C was a combination that would have been capable of blitzing and killing MS Sasuke had Jugo and Suigetsu not been around to save him.  MS Sasuke is faster than anybody in the Sound 5 by an unbelievable margin, and his MS Skill certainly far surpasses all of theirs, except Tayuya... I guess.  Even then, Sharingan provides Sasuke with Genjutsu Recognition, which is why he was able to break out so quickly and get Jugo to snap out.

So Darui and C combine to make quick work of Kimi and everybody else in the Sound 4 who fails to realize that he/she's in a genjutsu.  Which may very well be everybody sans Tayuya.  Tayuya certainly isn't about to solo Darui and C.


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## Quikdraw7777 (Aug 16, 2013)

There are a couple problems that could really fuck Darui over:

*1)*  If Kidomarou isn't the first target, it gives him a chance to extend the distance between himself and Darui. He'll use that hardened substance he creates to rain arrows and Kunai down upon Darui like it nobody's business - while his focus is on another. His Spider summon could also become quite irritating.

*2)*  The person that's likely to be taking much of Darui's attention is Kimimaro. Engaging him in Taijutsu is not recommended, as Kimimaro's incredible speed, flexibility, and the unpredictable elements of Shikotsumyaku will overwhelm Darui. The true problem with Kimimaro though, is that he can change the battlefield into a sea of bones at any given moment via *Dance of the Seedling Fern*.

If he doesn't take out Kidomaru first, Darui's chances go south very quickly. The reason being is:

Kimimaro = Close Range Fighter
Kidomaru = Long Range Support

These two alone can use their attacks in tandem to ensure Darui doesn't get any jutsu of his own going. Kimimaro can stall Darui enough for Kidomaru to get a solid shot on him. On the other end, Kidomaru can use his projectiles to force Darui within close quarters of Kimimaro's lethal strikes. I really have doubt on whether he can do this alone.


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## Icegaze (Aug 17, 2013)

Axiom said:


> I've already stated that I think S5 take this, but if you throw C in then the Kumo Duo should definitely take it.  Darui + C was a combination that would have been capable of blitzing and killing MS Sasuke had Jugo and Suigetsu not been around to save him.  MS Sasuke is faster than anybody in the Sound 5 by an unbelievable margin, and his MS Skill certainly far surpasses all of theirs, except Tayuya... I guess.  Even then, Sharingan provides Sasuke with Genjutsu Recognition, which is why he was able to break out so quickly and get Jugo to snap out.
> 
> So Darui and C combine to make quick work of Kimi and everybody else in the Sound 4 who fails to realize that he/she's in a genjutsu.  Which may very well be everybody sans Tayuya.  Tayuya certainly isn't about to solo Darui and C.



I agree with quick draw 

Now axiom C genjutsu allows darui to come close and slaughter them 
However you do know all but jirobo would know that to counter genjutsu simply change your chakra flow. Sakon would do this with ridiculous ease , so would Tayuya  , kimimaro and kidomaru 
Jirobo is the only one who comes off too weak and stupid to be able to
Do much . Once the genjutsu is broken only jirobo would be dead . Sakon can survive being split in half . You have to remember knowledge was given so the sound 5 would be in a formation favouring 
Their fighting style . Once kidomaru and Tayuya have gained distance they can assist kimi and troll the kumo ninja . C can only use genjutsu he is useless .

Ps: putting kimi in genjutsu is fun and all but what says darui can kill him ?? Chakra enhanced blades are tanked by his base bones 
His bone plates are visibly stronger so who says he won't use that or go cs2 to break out ?


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## Axiom (Aug 17, 2013)

When C cast the genjutsu, Juugo was in CS1, and could have gone CS2 to get out.  He didn't, however, because he didn't realize he was under a genjutsu, which is the same problem the S5 will face.  The only one who I would grant the ability to recognize that the S5 was placed under a genjutsu would be Tayuya, but as I said, Sauce wasn't able to recognize he was under a genjutsu in time to stop Darui from blitzing him, and he would be able to break out faster than anybody in the S5 would be able to, because the Sharingan gives him genjutsu recognition.

And I don't think Kimi has those bone plates under him 100% of the time.  His dialogue after Gaara tried to crush him with sand coffin implied that Kimi had to actively place the bone armor under his skin, which I don't think he will have done in this situation.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

Axiom said:


> When C cast the genjutsu, Juugo was in CS1, and could have gone CS2 to get out.  He didn't, however, because he didn't realize he was under a genjutsu, which is the same problem the S5 will face.  The only one who I would grant the ability to recognize that the S5 was placed under a genjutsu would be Tayuya, but as I said, Sauce wasn't able to recognize he was under a genjutsu in time to stop Darui from blitzing him, and he would be able to break out faster than anybody in the S5 would be able to, because the Sharingan gives him genjutsu recognition.
> 
> And I don't think Kimi has those bone plates under him 100% of the time.  His dialogue after Gaara tried to crush him with sand coffin implied that Kimi had to actively place the bone armor under his skin, which I don't think he will have done in this situation.



Sakon gets out because of ukon; partner method
Kidomaru gets out because he is actually smart unlike jugo  and cs2 changes chakra flow . Jugo also can't control his cs2 . So he would be less included to use it 
kimimaro doesn't need to but can do what kido did. when darui tries to hit kimi. Kimi won't die. Also sakon would have already countered darui . Remember full knowledge given to S5 sakon and jirobo should be in front of kimi 
Tayuya breaks out genjutsu expert 

Also note darui has no way of seeing ukon counter . When he goes to kill sakon who should be on front of Tayuya,kido and kimi. Darui tries a straight forward attack cuz his enemy is in genjutsu just to see ukon leap out and enter his body. Ukon did so so quick kiba didn't even realise it. Even if ukon doesn't do that a surprise kick or punch would discourage darui from usin said tactic again and would proceed to
Laser circus and what not but by then Tayuya and kido have moved far and are hidding
Laser circus is fast but can't hit enemies darui can't see


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 18, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Even if ukon doesn't do that a surprise kick or punch would discourage darui from usin said tactic again and would proceed to
> Laser circus and what not but by then Tayuya and kido have moved far and are hidding
> Laser circus is fast but can't hit enemies darui can't see



Because they are faster than the lasers, aren't they?


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Because they are faster than the lasers, aren't they?



because darui can see behind trees cant he 
  

you are a joke 

like the way you didnt disagree with how they get out of genjutsu or how darui somehow would know ukon lives inside sakon. Hard to engage someone in CQC when they can kick or punch you from their stomach. 

also tayuya genjutsu GG. Who says C can get out. kabuto used it on 2 uchiha 1 with EMS one with MS yet they had to help each other get out.  So darui stands no chance. (Am using your logic here) 

also who said senjtusu chakra affects genjtusu to make it stronger??? 

prove it. !! it was tayuya genjutsu he used. therefore tayuya can GG


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## schwingers (Aug 18, 2013)

The sound 4 are extremely underestimated.   Their abilities are extremely difficult to deal with, and take some special skills to do so.  They are amazing support for even a Kage level battle.


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## Icegaze (Aug 18, 2013)

schwingers said:


> The sound 4 are extremely underestimated.   Their abilities are extremely difficult to deal with, and take some special skills to do so.  They are amazing support for even a Kage level battle.



i agree but they are part 1 characters so people are forced to underestimate them. 

kimi is slow, he didnt blitz genin rock lee. When did any jounin blitz genin rock lee??

people faulty logic sometimes makes me  

rock lee as a genin was fast even by jounin standard. 4.5 in speed as a genin, once he took his weights off. His speed feats still far exceed those of asuma. But no people logic asuma is a jounin therefore asuma is faster.  this isnt DBZ where being all round stronger makes you faster than someone


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 19, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> i agree but they are part 1 characters so people are forced to underestimate them.
> 
> kimi is slow, he didnt blitz genin rock lee. When did any jounin blitz genin rock lee??



Nah, they only blitzed Neji, Naruto, Shikamaru, Gaara, etc.



Icegaze said:


> people faulty logic sometimes makes me
> 
> rock lee as a genin was fast even by jounin standard. 4.5 in speed as a genin, once he took his weights off. His speed feats still far exceed those of asuma. But no people logic asuma is a jounin therefore asuma is faster.  this isnt DBZ where being all round stronger makes you faster than someone



You make fun of people that think that enemies the kids defeated are weaker than the ones they defeated when they were ore powerful, on the other hand you use datafail as a valid source


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 19, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> rock lee as a genin was fast even by jounin standard. 4.5 in speed as a genin, once he took his weights off.



He was actually a 4 in speed in Part I and 4.5 for the first part of Part II. In Part I, his weightless speed is equivalent to Kurenai, who is the slowest of the Jounin sensei. Asuma and Kakashi (once he got back into shape after the Chunin prelims) are both at 4.5 and Gai is at 5.


schwingers said:


> The sound 4 are extremely underestimated.   Their abilities are extremely difficult to deal with, and take some special skills to do so.  They are amazing support for even a Kage level battle.



Yeah, their jutsu were called "beyond human" by Genma. And Kabuto thought their powers were with absorbing and chose to use them against Itachi and Sasuke, which means that their jutsu, in the right hands, can be of great value even against some of the very best combatants out there. Oh and Genma was not only an elite guard for three Hokage, but was able to hold off Baki during the Chunin exam. Baki, who was apparently the trusted right hand man to the Kazekage entrusted with the Jinchuruuki of sand and the children of the Kazekage, and who casually slaughtered Hayate. Who, while being a special jounin like Genma, was complimented as a remarkable fighter. And yet Genma and Raidou, who was also an elite guard to Hokage. Their ranks, in this case, are no reason for writing them off. 

Even Shizune, who impressed Kabuto and Orochimaru and was Tsunade's trusted right hand, seemed to think that pursuing the Sound 4 would be futile even with the backup of a Chunin who had been chosen to proctor the exams (and they were said to be elite amongst the Chunin ranks). They were able to disable a full ANBU squad handpicked to protect the Hokage in the event of attack. And they were the trusted elite guards of Orochimaru himself. The _only_ reason they are underestimated is because they were "beaten by Genin", and people insist on believing that this means they were no better than low Chunin level fighters.


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## Stermor (Aug 19, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> He was actually a 4 in speed in Part I and 4.5 for the first part of Part II. In Part I, his weightless speed is equivalent to Kurenai, who is the slowest of the Jounin sensei. Asuma and Kakashi (once he got back into shape after the Chunin prelims) are both at 4.5 and Gai is at 5.
> 
> 
> Yeah, their jutsu were called "beyond human" by Genma. And Kabuto thought their powers were with absorbing and chose to use them against Itachi and Sasuke, which means that their jutsu, in the right hands, can be of great value even against some of the very best combatants out there. Oh and Genma was not only an elite guard for three Hokage, but was able to hold off Baki during the Chunin exam. Baki, who was apparently the trusted right hand man to the Kazekage entrusted with the Jinchuruuki of sand and the children of the Kazekage, and who casually slaughtered Hayate. Who, while being a special jounin like Genma, was complimented as a remarkable fighter. And yet Genma and Raidou, who was also an elite guard to Hokage. Their ranks, in this case, are no reason for writing them off.
> ...



people overrate the sound 4 hardcore... they have very usefull skill.. but they have no physical skills to compete with elite jounin or better.. they are probebly very usefull against a few jounin and rather good against chunin. they just can't brigde the physical gap.. 

sasuke was able to compete with all 4 of them at the same time.. and really sasuke can't even move or react when kakashi casually plays with him.. the sound 4 are the same.. 

this means most of the people in part2 just casually defeat the sound 4 without effort..


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## UchihaX28 (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't know. 

 The Sound 4 are implied to have trouble fighting Part 1 Kakashi all at once. They're definitely not low Chuunin fighters though. Sasuke was said to be on a Chuunin Level after manhandling Gaara and that same Sasuke using the CS was beat by Sakon using a weaker Curse Seal.


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## Rain (Aug 19, 2013)

These fodders ain't doing shit to Darui.

Kuropansa gg.


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## Icegaze (Aug 20, 2013)

kuropansa with no feats 
it barely burnt zetsu


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## Stermor (Aug 21, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't know.
> 
> The Sound 4 are implied to have trouble fighting Part 1 Kakashi all at once. They're definitely not low Chuunin fighters though. Sasuke was said to be on a Chuunin Level after manhandling Gaara and that same Sasuke using the CS was beat by Sakon using a weaker Curse Seal.



but he fought all 4 of them just a monent before that.. in base and was fast enough to beat them down while holding back... 

now if anyone gives them the time to use cs there abilities ofcourse rise.. but really if sasuke could already outspeed them.. what chance do you think they have against somebody who can casually blitz sasuke.. they won't have the time to use seals before a kunai slit all of there throats in a shingle shunsin... 

then there is the fact the the rookies all did fine against cs2 opponents.. so their physical stats didn't rise all that much.. 

anyway sasuke losing against sakon should be attributed to suprise and sasuke failure to defend against it..


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## Icegaze (Aug 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> but he fought all 4 of them just a monent before that.. in base and was fast enough to beat them down while holding back...
> 
> now if anyone gives them the time to use cs there abilities ofcourse rise.. but really if sasuke could already outspeed them.. what chance do you think they have against somebody who can casually blitz sasuke.. they won't have the time to use seals before a kunai slit all of there throats in a shingle shunsin...
> 
> ...



Fail logic !! So sasuke was holding back but they weren't ???
Sasuke also used cs against sakon and got bitch slapped in 1 hit . Read the manga 
Any member of sound 4 was well above sasuke after the Chunin exam. In fact sakon called him weak and said he was playing at being a ninja. Go back and read the manga. Even in base sakon was bullying sasuke.

Stemor or whatever is  so sasuke loosing is his failure to defend against sakon and should be attributed to surprise 
Wooooow!! Someone please tell him he cray. the genin only beat each member of sound 4 due to them playing around. If kido wanted to end neji from
The get go he would have used his arrows from the start . Tayuya was outsmarted like Hidan was. sakon and ukon beat kiba flat out . In fact sakon and Tayuya had to be taken out by back up from the sand. kankuro was already a Chunin so was temari .


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Fail logic !! So sasuke was holding back but they weren't ???
> Sasuke also used cs against sakon and got bitch slapped in 1 hit . Read the manga
> Any member of sound 4 was well above sasuke after the Chunin exam. In fact sakon called him weak and said he was playing at being a ninja. Go back and read the manga. Even in base sakon was bullying sasuke.
> 
> ...






If Kido tried to use the arrows from the start Neji would have let him run away and hide in you failpinion :faceplam


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> If Kido tried to use the arrows from the start Neji would have let him run away and hide in you failpinion :faceplam



 to that epic fail post
Neji never let kido run away kido simply jumped away and neji failed to chase him . That's not the same as letting somone run away . after the 64 palms if kido got away like he did and used arrows instead of tiny projectiles neji would have died . Remember kido was playing games for the first minute or so . When he got serious neji tried to flee


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## Zuhaitz (Aug 22, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> to that epic fail post
> Neji never let kido run away kido simply jumped away and neji failed to chase him . That's not the same as letting somone run away . after the 64 palms if kido got away like he did and used arrows instead of tiny projectiles neji would have died . Remember kido was playing games for the first minute or so . When he got serious neji tried to flee





Kidomaru summoned a giant spider and got away while Neji was dealing with his summon.

Kidomaru can't get away to use his arrow jutsu since the beginning, Nei wouldn't let him


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> Kidomaru summoned a giant spider and got away while Neji was dealing with his summon.
> 
> Kidomaru can't get away to use his arrow jutsu since the beginning, Nei wouldn't let him



wot a moron!!
Kido is clearly seen jumping away from neji and hidding in trees from the start of chapter 192 this happened righ after kido tanked 64 palms
He hadnt used any summons by then . Kido got away to use projectiles . Neji didn't let him. Kido got away . It's that simple


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

Sound 5 might actually win this. With C Darui might win


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