# Perfect Chaos (Sonic) vs. Biollante (Godzilla)



## Cypher0120 (Nov 8, 2012)

Because they look similar enough.



Who would come out on top?


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## Xiammes (Nov 8, 2012)

Oh man I thought someone bumped my old thread


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## Expelsword (Nov 8, 2012)

Feats for Bio?
Chaos has Chaos Emerald power.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 8, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Feats for Bio?
> Chaos has Chaos Emerald power.



He's pretty weak considering that though.


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## Xiammes (Nov 8, 2012)

> Feats for Bio?



Biollante is one of the few Godzilla enemies capable of piercing Godzilla, also able to physically keep up with Pre Retcon Heisei Godzilla.

Has some acid spit, regeneration, can turn into spores to regenerate in the sky or space.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 8, 2012)

What is pre retcon Heisei Godzilla and that Godzilla Bio fought was'nt upto par with later ones that moved tectonics plates. Still G-cells make Bio damn hard to kill, not much comment on Chaos though time stop/time travel powers would be a problem.


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## Xiammes (Nov 8, 2012)

> What is pre retcon Heisei Godzilla



Its when the Futurians tried retconning Godzilla out of existence and they replaced him with Ghidorah, but they only made Godzilla even stronger. The fight with Biollante was before that retcon.



> that Godzilla Bio fought was'nt upto par with later ones that moved tectonics plates. Still G-cells make Bio damn hard to kill, no comment on Chaos though time stop/time travel powers would be a problem.



Chaos has never demonstrated he could use time powers.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 8, 2012)

Strange one would assume since it has the negative power of the emeralds and is named Chaos it would have Chaos control, that is hilarious for the wrong reasons . Fair enough have'nt played the game in a long while.


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## Xiammes (Nov 8, 2012)

It depends who uses the Emeralds, they seem to be a do what ever the hell you want item, meaning he could probably use them for time hax, but he didn't know it was possible.


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## Bioness (Nov 8, 2012)

While Biollante is my favorite kaiju of all time I don't think she has a way to actually damage Chaos unless I am missing something.

Likewise can Chaos permanently keep her down as Biollante can just change into her spore form for instant recovery.

Here is the entire final fight scene, it is really well done and as I said Biollante can turn into her spore if injured or even for a sneak attack.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 8, 2012)

All biollante has to do is hit his very easy to see brain.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 8, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Strange one would assume since it has the negative power of the emeralds and is named Chaos it would have Chaos control, that is hilarious for the wrong reasons . Fair enough have'nt played the game in a long while.



He was made before they came up with Chaos Control. In two player mode in SA2B, Chaos 0 could do a psuedo time stop, but that is likely non-canon. 
For this fight, I envision a stalemate. Even Super Sonic didn't really kill him so much as purify him. But at the same time he can't kill Biollante either.


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## Bioness (Nov 8, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> All biollante has to do is hit his very easy to see brain.



Then I would give this fight to Biollante easily.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 8, 2012)

It doesn't quite work that way.


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## Expelsword (Nov 8, 2012)

Super Sonic hit the brain at near lightspeed.


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## Bioness (Nov 8, 2012)

^ When is this stated, Chaos is shown in both the video games and anime in that form but no where can I find Sonic going anywhere near lightspeed.

And should I mention Biollante's spores can move at faster than light speed if we take the information from Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla as fact.


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## Expelsword (Nov 8, 2012)

Super Sonic needed to be going as fast as he could to make it all the way to PC's brain.
His water is actually VERY tough to get through.


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## Bioness (Nov 8, 2012)

That doesn't mean he was going lightspeed, hell it may not have even been relativistic.


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## Expelsword (Nov 8, 2012)

Super Sonic's top speed _is_ lightspeed...


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 8, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> Super Sonic needed to be going as fast as he could to make it all the way to PC's brain.
> His water is actually VERY tough to get through.


Nope.
[YOUTUBE]mHY6lfeHRzc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Xiammes (Nov 8, 2012)

> Super Sonic's top speed is lightspeed...



We know his top speed is light speed, but we don't know if he ever reached that speed.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 8, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Nope.
> [YOUTUBE]mHY6lfeHRzc[/YOUTUBE]


That chaos was just a generation of the Time eater.


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## Expelsword (Nov 8, 2012)

It seems like a massive outlier that base Sonic can hurt Chaos, since he didn't even try it in Adventure and transformed immediately when given the option.
I blame the Time screwery.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 8, 2012)

Its also entirely possible that chaos only had the power of one emerald behind him in this fight.


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## Expelsword (Nov 9, 2012)

Then he would be Chaos 1, not Perfect Chaos.
Best to chalk it up to Time Eater.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2012)

Expelsword said:


> It seems like a massive outlier that base Sonic can hurt Chaos, since he didn't even try it in Adventure and transformed immediately when given the option.
> I blame the Time screwery.



Excuses excuses excuses that was Perfect choas, he's not even much of a threat in adventure either all ya have to do is hit his brain.


Azrael Finalstar said:


> That chaos was just a generation of the Time eater.



Did you even pay attention to the story?


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## Paranoid Android (Nov 9, 2012)

the adventure 2 boss fight was 50 times harder than perfect chaos lol.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 9, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Excuses excuses excuses that was Perfect choas, he's not even much of a threat in adventure either all ya have to do is hit his brain.
> 
> 
> Did you even pay attention to the story?


Did you ever notice that all the levels and boss fights were substantially different to how they were in their original games?
All you have to do is hit his brain? no, you have to come up from inside him at considerable speed and smash his brain full force. And you have to do that multiple times.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 9, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Did you ever notice that all the levels and boss fights were substantially different to how they were in their original games?
> All you have to do is hit his brain? no, you have to come up from inside him at considerable speed and smash his brain full force. And you have to do that multiple times.


And you think that has something to do with the story, pftttttttttttttttttttt. No that's proper game design.
I mean you want the stale old boss?
The story is Sonic going through past events to save his friends throughout time and space gathering emeralds.
There is not one mention of your fan theory anywhere.
Next you will tell me ash is in a coma.

Actually sonic just attacks his brain once he was high enough with a love tap and in case you didn't notice Biollante isn't small he doesn't have to deal with that.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 10, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> And you think that has something to do with the story, pftttttttttttttttttttt. No that's proper game design.
> I mean you want the stale old boss?
> The story is Sonic going through past events to save his friends throughout time and space gathering emeralds.
> There is not one mention of your fan theory anywhere.
> ...


Fan theory? All i'm saying is that its inconsistent with his earlier feats to be beat by base Sonic. Especially considering Super Sonic didn't destroy him, he purified him.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Fan theory? All i'm saying is that its inconsistent with his earlier feats to be beat by base Sonic. Especially considering Super Sonic didn't destroy him, he purified him.



Biollante is going to purify him all right take him out by hitting his brain several times, then eat him to put him down for good.


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## Expelsword (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm PRETTY sure Super Sonic could handle Biollante, but I've never seen him before, so can someone back me up?


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Biollante isn't much of a problem for Super Sonic.  Especially compared to things like Dark Gaia and the Finalhazard.  She won't be tagging him anytime soon that's for damn sure.

As for the fight, Biollante went down after a few blasts from a weakened Godzilla's atomic ray.  Perfect Chaos used a similar weapon to oneshot the Egg Carrier 2.  The boss fight showed he can spam that attack.  Multiple hits from that aren't going to be pretty for Biollante.  And she won't be able to hit his brain, which is a small target anyway, when he goes into his liquid state. If he keeps his distance, avoids close-quarters combat, and keeps blasting her, he should be able to win. 

Oh and the Sonic Generations Perfect Chaos fight is bullshit, as is the inclusion of Crisis City, which was retconned out of existence.  Just proves that the current employees at Sonic Team know shit about continuity.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Something of Sonic's mass traveling at just under the speed of light would hit with several hundred megatons of energy. If you take the boss fight at face value and subscribe to the idea that Super Sonic defeated Perfect Chaos simply by hitting him really hard, Chaos still soaked up a couple gigatons of energy before going down.


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## Xiammes (Nov 10, 2012)

I thought we don't use speed to get energy values.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> I thought we don't use speed to get energy values.



Pretty sure using speed to get energy is fine.

Using energy to get speed is what causes problems.


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## Xiammes (Nov 10, 2012)

From what I have gathered we don't use speed to get energy because most fictions generally ignore the massive amounts of energy that going at such high speeds cause. Some exceptions are made, and I am pretty sure Sonic isn't one of them.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

This is terrible. Sonic Generations wasn't the manifestation of any characters from the past, it was the characters moving through the timeline to the different existences of enemies and laces they had fought against. Time Eater has the ability to eat time as his name suggests, he can completely distort the time line of the universe to make it an entirely empty space (which the Two Eggman's were in at the end of the game, in a place where time doesn't matter, another universe and/or dimension.

Second off, Chaos to have his forms needs the Chaos Emeralds. Chaos 1 has only one of his arms enlarged when he uses one chaos emerald, what could have happened was Sonic got a *MAJOR* increase in stats in which he could move faster, hit harder and became more durable since he'd been through like 4 or 5 main games not including the side games since he'd fought Chaos. In which case I don't know why anyones surprised. He's beaten enemies far stronger than Chaos in both his normal and super forms after all of this.

Anyway. Perfect Chaos has City Busting Power, the ability to be intangible through a liquid state (a la Logia) in which case only his brain is affected by attacks. He has the ability to release massive waves of water (he's the living embodiment of Chaos he should have all the feats shown by the characters in the series including Time Travel and Control). And yada yada yada.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

sonic546 said:


> Biollante isn't much of a problem for Super Sonic.  Especially compared to things like Dark Gaia and the Finalhazard.  She won't be tagging him anytime soon that's for damn sure.
> 
> As for the fight, Biollante went down after a few blasts from a weakened Godzilla's atomic ray.  Perfect Chaos used a similar weapon to oneshot the Egg Carrier 2.  The boss fight showed he can spam that attack.  Multiple hits from that aren't going to be pretty for Biollante.  And she won't be able to hit his brain, which is a small target anyway, when he goes into his liquid state. If he keeps his distance, avoids close-quarters combat, and keeps blasting her, he should be able to win.
> 
> Oh and the Sonic Generations Perfect Chaos fight is bullshit, as is the inclusion of Crisis City, which was retconned out of existence.  Just proves that the current employees at Sonic Team know shit about continuity.



You underestimate godzilla weakened or not 
That's so wrong man Biollante's regeneration was effected by godzilla's breath SPECIFICALLY because it was *atomic fire*.
Chaos's generic energy beam isn't similar in the slightest destructively either.

Destroying Egg carrier 2 isn't that impressive you know...
Not to mention it was a chain reaction.
[YOUTUBE]PzIy4OoFAQI[/YOUTUBE]
5:10-5:30 Not impressive in the slightest
[YOUTUBE]TKq5THE6BvM[/YOUTUBE]
That isn't even the attack he spams either nor does it have a good enough feat to be of any use here.

Generations takes place after colors base sonic can take out Perfect chaos you have to deal with that you didn't even take into consideration sonic already knows how to beat him making super sonic unnecessary.
It happened as well since classic sonic was still there at the exact moment the birthday party started. Perfect chaos's power was retconned because he was no longer impressive.
You are overhyping it is all.

Biollante can literally eat chaos, because you know plant and eats lakes and such,is immortal, she also can give a fully in condition godzilla a fight to a draw.
Going with chaos's poor showings and water not being an effective form of attack nor having a real effective attack to speak of to prevent Biollante from regenning normally
Biollante can just eat on Chaos outlasting him eventually actually killing him never once making her retreat.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You underestimate godzilla weakened or not
> That's so wrong man Biollante's regeneration was effected by godzilla's breath SPECIFICALLY because it was *atomic fire*.
> Chaos's generic energy beam isn't similar in the slightest destructively either.
> 
> ...



I'm not gonna fight on that, I'm just wondering what types of feats Bio had and which Godzilla was this that had beaten it. Considering that Godzilla has different showings from weakest to strongest, he's basically the Mario of the Kaijuu. Like for one instance Mario can easily crush castles with his jumps and then in other games he can barely crush mushrooms or seemingly "normal" turtle shells.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> I'm not gonna fight on that, I'm just wondering what types of feats Bio had and which Godzilla was this that had beaten it. Considering that Godzilla has different showings from weakest to strongest, he's basically the Mario of the Kaijuu.



Toho godzilla
We see that Rufus is standing in the outskirts


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm not sure what the Generations debate has to do with anything. If people think that Perfect Chaos was identical to the original, it just means Current Base Sonic is as powerful as Adventure Super Sonic (which is absurd) and has nothing at all to do with how Perfect Chaos compares to Biollante.



Xiammes said:


> From what I have gathered we don't use speed to get energy because most fictions generally ignore the massive amounts of energy that going at such high speeds cause. Some exceptions are made, and I am pretty sure Sonic isn't one of them.



All the uncontested calcs done by various people (including myself) that use speed to get energy seem to disagree with this idea.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Toho godzilla
> We see that Rufus is standing in the outskirts



That didn't help at all, I know he's made from Toho, I meant what Era but I found it. Biollante was born from the Heisei era which is the most modern Era, which shows the more powerful Godzilla feats, however, we don't necessarily know how powerful Godzilla was this time around as just like any other character in fiction or non-fiction he could of gotten stronger and thus his Atomic Rays powers vary in destructive power, generally Godzilla is considered a City Buster normally, he can also control the varying degrees of intensity his atomic ray can release, he was weakened during that fight by Super X correct, thus we can't actually say Biollante was facing the full power of Godzilla. 

Also Godzilla hadn't shown nearly all of his most ferocious abilities yet, he was weakened by the Super X which was why he could be pierced by Biollante. So, within this I'm gonna have to say that Godzilla is a City Buster this time around, meaning Biollante was as well. Biollante can regenerate from atomic fire which is a superheated nuclear beam. However, Biollante doesn't really have many fighting abilities aside from his vines, and Chaos still has his beams even if a chain explosion it cut through the ship.

Chaos probably won't win but he won't be defeated just because this guy is a plant. Unless he showed the ability to absorb water at extremely high speeds and quantites he can't use such a skill in battle making that useless as well.


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> You underestimate godzilla weakened or not
> That's so wrong man Biollante's regeneration was effected by godzilla's breath SPECIFICALLY because it was *atomic fire*.
> Chaos's generic energy beam isn't similar in the slightest destructively either.
> 
> ...



Since when was G-cell regeneration hampered by nuclear energy.  It wasn't the radioactive properties of Godzilla's breath, it was the repeated exposure to the heat and force of the blasts.

And even assuming the Egg Carrier was a chain reaction, his beam still sliced right through a ship just as big as himself, enough of those will do damage to Biollante. And yes, he can spam that beam, he uses it constantly throughout 
the boss battle.  Now it will take a damn while to do any thing major, but still it will do more damage to her than her acid sap will do to him.  Also he can quickly teleport(ooze? can't think of a better word for it) around the arena, which will no doubt be flooded.  He'll be a bitch to hit.

Yet the Generations PC battle would have us believe that Base Sonic is on par with Super Sonic. Which is utter bull considering his other feats.  
And what retcon are you talking about?

No Biollante cannot just soak Perfect Chaos up just because she's a plant.  That's not how that works.  In fact, you can drown plants just as easily as you can animals, generally speaking.  Besides, she's never shown that she's able to soak up that much water so quickly.

And she never fought Godzilla to a standstill. The first time she didn't do much damage to Godzilla and was forced to retreat. The second time, in her most powerful form, Godzilla was just blasting her apart when he was severely weakened by those radiation eating bacteria.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

sonic546 said:


> Yet the Generations PC battle would have us believe that Base Sonic is on par with Super Sonic. Which is utter bull considering his other feats.
> And what retcon are you talking about?



Or... maybe his physical abilities have grown so much that he doesn't need Super Sonic for it... Again, Chaos was only a City Buster compared to the Planet Buster Dark Gaia, opponents that can destroy or eat time, the ability to change and manipulate time appearing in different dimensions of time in which it could survive as long as its flame stayed lit. Etc etc. He's been through a lot of battles and could have conceivably gotten stronger.

Also, Sonic had fought it before, so he knew to attack its brain.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Or... maybe his physical abilities have grown so much that he doesn't need Super Sonic for it... Again, Chaos was only a City Buster compared to the Planet Buster Dark Gaia, opponents that can destroy or eat time, the ability to change and manipulate time appearing in different dimensions of time in which it could survive as long as its flame stayed lit. Etc etc. He's been through a lot of battles and could have conceivably gotten stronger.



Perhaps this would be a convincing argument if Classic Sonic didn't appear to be perfectly capable of keeping up with his future self and fighting at a similar level. Otherwise he would have just slowed Modern Sonic down during the fight with the Time Eater.

Funny you should bring up Dark Gaia too, considering how the opening of Unleashed has one of Eggman's conventional mechs subduing Sonic's normal form in about thirty seconds. Eggman thought highly enough of Chaos' power to willingly feed him all seven Chaos Emeralds instead of keeping them for himself, so I find it pretty hard to believe that this thing is a tier above Perfect Chaos.



> Also, Sonic had fought it before, so he knew to attack its brain.



Doesn't really justify anything. He knew that before he fought Perfect Chaos the first time too. Everyone who fought Chaos figured that out the first time they battled him, but knowing Chaos' one weak point doesn't mean anything if you aren't powerful enough to exploit it.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> All the uncontested calcs done by various people (including myself) that use speed to get energy seem to disagree with this idea.



An appeal to the majority is not an argument, this should'nt even be considered. We can list many instances where the speed of a person smashing into something does match the calc. Especially at lightspeed and FTL, we've seen characters get sent flying from planet to planet in seconds yet not destroy planets, we've seen characters get sent flying at relativistic speeds yet not make craters as big as they should. When you start reaching lightspeed then the theory of infinite mass would apply but then this is all conceptual to begin with and some may disagree with their own theories.


Here's a good example of smashing into a planet at FTL speeds not doing the level of destruction one would expect.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Are we really going to overanalyse a work of fiction to get numbers that are well in excess of what the feat actually shows?Now I'm not commenting on Sonic being gigaton or whatever if destroy the object required that kind of energy or if the explosion caused was calc'd at such numbers fair enough.

But speed has no bearing on energy in fiction generally, writers don't take that into account so unless you can prove the writer is doing so it's not a valid calc.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> An appeal to the majority is not an argument, this should'nt even be considered. We can list many instances where the speed of a person smashing into something does match the calc. Especially at lightspeed and FTL, we've seen characters get sent flying from planet to planet in seconds yet not destroy planets, we've seen characters get sent flying at relativistic speeds yet not make craters as big as they should. When you start reaching lightspeed then the theory of infinite mass would apply but then this is all conceptual to begin with and some may disagree with their own theories.
> 
> 
> Here's a good example of smashing into a planet at FTL speeds not doing the level of destruction one would expect.
> ...



It's not really fallacious when our MO is _defined_ by the majority.

Kinetic energy calcs are taken on a case by case basis like pretty much every other kind of calc, but they're generally accepted by the OBD. There's no point in bringing up FTL feats to discredit the idea either since those aren't calced in the first place due to being unquantifiable by any kind of physics we're currently aware of. Relativity is generally ignored as well unless the series is shown to address it.

Your 'the writer didn't take that into account' argument can also be used to invalidate basically every calc there is. As far as I'm aware that kind of logic doesn't fly around here. It's just far too subjective to be worth anything.

Though I'm extremely tired at the moment and really don't care enough to get into a big argument over calcing policy, so if you're really hung up over it we can just agree to disagree.

If you'd rather powerscale Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic instead, be my guest. Try this for a start:

[YOUTUBE]MtGA8k3oF7Y[/YOUTUBE]

That's five Chaos Emeralds to their seven. And then we have Unleashed, where Super Sonic is powerful enough to make a difference in a fight against a planet buster. Eggman thought Chaos would be his ultimate, invincible weapon despite showing that he had city busting ICBMs in the _same game_, and Tikal all but states that Perfect Chaos essentially caused the apocalypse during his last rampage.

Given how consistent the Chaos Emeralds are in producing planetary or outright planet busting effects when used together, the triple digit megatons you could get for Super Sonic via a kinetic energy calc is actually much _lower_ than what you get through simple powerscaling.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

Eggman didn't take into account Chaos only using the negative energy of the emeralds.
In contrast since he used the negative energy sonic is missing some of the emeralds power when he went super against Perfect Chaos.
Chaos can't even use the emeralds power correctly.


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## Expelsword (Nov 10, 2012)

He seemed to use the destructive aspect of the Emeralds well, but Chaos Control wasn't revealed until Shadow showed up in Adventure 2.


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## Bioness (Nov 10, 2012)

Regardless of what the Chaos Emeralds can actually do, Chaos was never doing any of that.

And saying Biollante kept getting blown up by Godzilla doesn't change the fact that not only was she able to regenerate her vines, head, entire body, but also pieced completely through Godzilla's body with her vines and melted the skin on the top half of his body with her Acid. Godzilla was indeed infected by the radiation eating bacteria but it didn't take effect until mid way through the second fight with Biollante.

As for the version of Godzilla Biollante faced it is here.




He was retconned halfway through 
But admittingly he had little to no feats in that movie until after he emerged more powerful.

In the end Chao will be unable to kill or even permanently harm Biollante before she can destroy his physical parts.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

I thought we didn't take into account Videogame feats that were done during Gameplay unless that Gameplay was directly attributed towards cutscenes and whatnot. Sonic in one instance of his battle with the Time Eater for example was instructing Classic on how to go about Time Eater. Are we really saying that Classic has just as much speed as Sonic does? They were fighting together yes but Sonic is the more experienced, has been in far more battles, and is seen as stronger than Classic throughout the entire game.

Towards Chaos with his use of Chaos Emeralds now, he used only the negative energies of the Chaos Emeralds, said by a character who studied and tried to manipulate the energies (I think it was Tails or maybe Tikal). Meaning he only used half the Chaos Emeralds powers. He was still fully capable of city level destructive potential using a beat of great power to plow through Eggman (Sonic was unaffected by the beam and it only pushed him back through the battle). 

What's more is we don't know Sonic's top speed, only in a few instances have we ever been shown Sonics greatest movement speed and it's highly implied that when he runs in the games he's moving at cruising speeds instead of top speeds. Super Sonic is obviously faster than Classic Super as well, because again, Sonic is older and stronger.

I don't even know why we're having this argument... *sighs*

Back to the battle. Chaos can't be absorbed in vines unless Biollante shows that ability in actual fights I don't even know why that was brought up considering it's not one of her special abilities. He can regenerate from a weakened Godzilla's intense Atomic Ray but Godzilla didn't really get his biggest feats until the later Heisei Era in his first battle with Biollante he was weakened and he could only be considered a City Buster normally.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> I thought we didn't take into account Videogame feats that were done during Gameplay unless that Gameplay was directly attributed towards cutscenes and whatnot. Sonic in one instance of his battle with the Time Eater for example was instructing Classic on how to go about Time Eater. Are we really saying that Classic has just as much speed as Sonic does? They were fighting together yes but Sonic is the more experienced, has been in far more battles, and is seen as stronger than Classic throughout the entire game.



More experienced? Yes. Orders of magnitude faster and stronger? No.

You don't have to bring in gameplay of any kind to reach that conclusion. Classic Sonic helping Modern Sonic defeat the Time Eater is part of the plot. If Classic Super Sonic was on par with or weaker than Modern _Base_ Sonic (who got swatted aside by the Time Eater effortlessly), he wouldn't have been any help to Modern Super Sonic at all. That's called common sense.



> Towards Chaos with his use of Chaos Emeralds now, he used only the negative energies of the Chaos Emeralds, said by a character who studied and tried to manipulate the energies (I think it was Tails or maybe Tikal). Meaning he only used half the Chaos Emeralds powers. He was still fully capable of city level destructive potential using a beat of great power to plow through Eggman (Sonic was unaffected by the beam and it only pushed him back through the battle).



Yes, he absorbed half of the Chaos Emeralds' power. Guess what happens when you cut planet destroying levels of energy in half? You still have more than enough to devastate the whole planet, if not destroy it completely.

But I guess we should just ignore that, as well as the fact that Perfect Chaos apparently destroyed the world in a single night.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> I thought we didn't take into account Videogame feats that were done during Gameplay unless that Gameplay was directly attributed towards cutscenes and whatnot. Sonic in one instance of his battle with the Time Eater for example was instructing Classic on how to go about Time Eater. Are we really saying that Classic has just as much speed as Sonic does? They were fighting together yes but Sonic is the more experienced, has been in far more battles, and is seen as stronger than Classic throughout the entire game.
> 
> Towards Chaos with his use of Chaos Emeralds now, he used only the negative energies of the Chaos Emeralds, said by a character who studied and tried to manipulate the energies (I think it was Tails or maybe Tikal). Meaning he only used half the Chaos Emeralds powers. He was still fully capable of city level destructive potential using a beat of great power to plow through Eggman (Sonic was unaffected by the beam and it only pushed him back through the battle).
> 
> ...



34:44-35:06
It started out fairly small until it got to the lake.


2:01-6:40 Fight 1
39:24-45:00 Fight 2
As for not counting feats after, if all of the fights are for the same godzilla even in the future they should count as they are the same godzilla.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> But I guess we should just ignore that, as well as the fact that Perfect Chaos apparently destroyed the world in a single night.



The writers sure did 
[YOUTUBE]uJqWjRf6XQs[/YOUTUBE]
1:44-4:22
"All's well that ends well, right?"
RIGHHHHHTTTT??


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

But of course.

I mean, it's not like Station Square has been destroyed and millions have drowned or anything.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> More experienced? Yes. Orders of magnitude faster and stronger? No.
> 
> You don't have to bring in gameplay of any kind to reach that conclusion. Classic Sonic helping Modern Sonic defeat the Time Eater is part of the plot. If Classic Super Sonic was on par with or weaker than Modern _Base_ Sonic (who got swatted aside by the Time Eater effortlessly), he wouldn't have been any help to Modern Super Sonic at all. That's called common sense.
> 
> ...



What you're saying makes literally no sense. I also didn't call Chaos a planet buster because I think that's a hyperbole, I called him and Biollante City Busters unless you can show feats towards Biollante actually contending against Godzilla before he was sick from Super X which is considered one of his greatest weaknesses in canon.

Super Sonic and Classic Super Sonic both have the ability to become invulnerable and have the gift of lightspeed movement. Nothing validly shows that the base for their strength is greater or weaker except that Sonic has had to go through what Classic hasn't had to go through. It should be obvious through constant trials a person would become stronger, smarter and better than they were in the past. All you're saying is that Gameplay shows them stronger or weaker than one another. When all it is is just that Gameplay.

Characters from other series like Vergil and Dante for example are considered stronger than one another even though Dante defeats Vergil each time he fights him, Vergil is still considered the stronger brother. That said it's all apart of the gameplay aspect. Gameplay =/= someones true power otherwise we'd have to look at the feats of fighting game characters (ones that use overexaggerated moves) shouldn't be considered canon as their powers should it. The same goes for gameplay with Sonic and Classic, just because they *SEEM* similar doesn't mean they have similar strength.

Unless those gameplay feats are things like "Timed Cutscenes" which showcase the character performing a said feat thats out of the ordinary towards what they should during gameplay.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> What you're saying makes literally no sense. I also didn't call Chaos a planet buster because I think that's a hyperbole, I called him and Biollante City Busters unless you can show feats towards Biollante actually contending against Godzilla before he was sick from Super X which is considered one of his greatest weaknesses in canon.



Apparently you missed this line:



			
				Tikal said:
			
		

> My heart has always been in the Master Emerald along with Chaos'. Now he's filled with anger and sadness. And if it goes on... he'll eventually destroy the world like he did before.



Perfect Chaos was around for part of a single night before being locked up in the Master Emerald. During that time he devastated the world and ended most if not all civilization. That's above city busting.

I'm not sure where I mentioned Biollante anywhere in my post or what you're talking about with Godzilla. Godzilla doesn't really have any specific weaknesses. The Super X2 contributed nothing at all to weakening him, it just distracted him while the microbes were delivered. The artificial lightning and the battle with Biollante raised his body temperature enough for the microbes to take effect.



> Super Sonic and Classic Super Sonic both have the ability to become invulnerable and have the gift of lightspeed movement. Nothing validly shows that the base for their strength is greater or weaker except that Sonic has had to go through what Classic hasn't had to go through. It should be obvious through constant trials a person would become stronger, smarter and better than they were in the past. All you're saying is that Gameplay shows them stronger or weaker than one another. When all it is is just that Gameplay.



Let me make this simple for you.

In order for Modern Sonic to legitimately defeat Perfect Chaos in his normal form, there would have to be an astronomical difference in power between him and Dreamcast Sonic, and thus by your own logic an even larger difference in power between him and Classic Sonic.

Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic team up to fight the Time Eater. The fact that Classic Sonic even matters in this fight indicates that there's not a huge difference in power between him and Modern Sonic. This has nothing at all to do with gameplay mechanics, unless you honestly think Modern Sonic did all the work while Classic Sonic contributed nothing.

Ergo, there are extenuating circumstances involved in Modern Sonic's fight with Perfect Chaos.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 10, 2012)

Is it not possible that it was because of the master emerald he did so?


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Apparently you missed this line:
> 
> Perfect Chaos was around for part of a single night before being locked up in the Master Emerald. During that time he devastated the world and ended most if not all civilization. That's above city busting.
> 
> ...



Then that just means he can probably accumulate enough power to destroy the world. Sonic defeated him before he could do that, this probably means that he'd roam the world destroying places left and right due to having no opposing forces that could stop him.

Super-X (and I'm getting this from the wiki unless you have another source that shows his strengths and weaknesses better) slows the chemical reactions in Godzilla's body weakening him and disallowing him from using some of his most powerful nuclear/atomic attacks or severely weakening them.

For the third lines, all I'm saying is that Sonic has been through many more a fight than Classic has so characteristically just like any other fiction he gains strength, and skills greater than Classic Sonic. And they both teamed up in their Super Forms, both of them have the ability to use invulnerability, speed increased capabilities and what not. 

He won against Chaos, Chaos has to have the Chaos Emeralds to use his powers. You keep forgetting that I also said that Gameplay doesn't always fit the mold for a characters powers. He knew how to defeat Chaos, attacking its brain consecutively with powerful blows. This is like saying Baby Mario is just as strong as Regular Mario, tbh.


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> The writers sure did
> [YOUTUBE]uJqWjRf6XQs[/YOUTUBE]
> 1:44-4:22
> "All's well that ends well, right?"
> RIGHHHHHTTTT??





Eldritch Sukima said:


> But of course.
> 
> I mean, it's not like Station Square has been destroyed and millions have drowned or anything.



It's like something straight out of an 80s cartoon.



Gomu said:


> For the third lines, all I'm saying is that Sonic has been through many more a fight than Classic has so characteristically just like any other fiction he gains strength, and skills greater than Classic Sonic. And they both teamed up in their Super Forms, both of them have the ability to use invulnerability, speed increased capabilities and what not.
> 
> He won against Chaos, Chaos has to have the Chaos Emeralds to use his powers. You keep forgetting that I also said that Gameplay doesn't always fit the mold for a characters powers. He knew how to defeat Chaos, attacking its brain consecutively with powerful blows. This is like saying Baby Mario is just as strong as Regular Mario, tbh.



And yet Classic Sonic was shown to be on par with his future self.  The power difference between the two is negligible at best.  Not comparable to your Baby Mario comparison.

What does gameplay have to do with anything?  Even if Sonic knew to attack Chaos's brain, he shouldn't be powerful enough to utilize that weakness in his base form, based off his other feats.  Or are you seriously going to claim that current Base Sonic is on par with Super Sonic.  And don't give me that "He's had more experience since then!" nonsense.  No amount of training or battles for Sonic is putting him on the level of his Super form.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

All I'm hearing is that it's impossible for Sonic to gain more strength. Though there it is, he defeated the fully powered Chaos. So... you guys can have your doubts but obviously the actual creators of the characters have more pull than you do.


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> All I'm hearing is that it's impossible for Sonic to gain more strength. Though there it is, he defeated the fully powered Chaos. So... you guys can have your doubts but obviously the actual creators of the characters have more pull than you do.



No. It's impossible for Sonic to gain as much strength as his Super form without the Chaos Emeralds.  Are you really this fucking dumb?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Is it not possible that it was because of the master emerald he did so?



If you're referring to Perfect Chaos devastating the world, then no, because as far as we've seen Chaos can't actually use the Master Emerald's power.



Gomu said:


> Then that just means he can probably accumulate enough power to destroy the world. Sonic defeated him before he could do that, this probably means that he'd roam the world destroying places left and right due to having no opposing forces that could stop him.



In other words, more than a city buster, since he did it in a matter of hours (at most) the last time he was free.



> Super-X (and I'm getting this from the wiki unless you have another source that shows his strengths and weaknesses better) slows the chemical reactions in Godzilla's body weakening him and disallowing him from using some of his most powerful nuclear/atomic attacks or severely weakening them.



Watching the movie would probably be a better idea than relying on the wiki. Or you could just scroll down a bit to the relevant part of the article:



> Later, in Osaka, the Super X-II served as a decoy to maneuver Godzilla into firing range of a bazooka troop equipped with shells containing a biological agent. The craft taunted Godzilla almost into range of the troop until it ran out of missiles, at which point Major Kuroki ordered the still-damaged Fire Mirror engaged. Godzilla's next blast crippled the craft, which crashed into Osaka Business Park. Though the Super X-II was lost, the mission to infect Godzilla succeeded.



It was a nuisance to Godzilla, nothing more. It didn't weaken him by any noticeable degree, just kept him busy while the microbes were injected.



> For the third lines, all I'm saying is that Sonic has been through many more a fight than Classic has so characteristically just like any other fiction he gains strength, and skills greater than Classic Sonic. And they both teamed up in their Super Forms, both of them have the ability to use invulnerability, speed increased capabilities and what not.



Not every series is a shounen manga, believe it or not. Gaining experience and learning new tricks is one thing, but we don't just assume a character gets many times stronger simply by fighting a lot unless there's actually evidence to support the idea.

The fact remains that Classic Sonic even being relevant in the Time Eater fight indicates that the difference in power between them is not very big, while Modern Sonic beating Perfect Chaos on his own would indicate that the difference in power between them is gargantuan.

Perfect Chaos being weaker in Generations due to Time Eater shenanigans fits the evidence much better than Sonic getting orders of magnitude more powerful for no real reason.



> He won against Chaos, Chaos has to have the Chaos Emeralds to use his powers. You keep forgetting that I also said that Gameplay doesn't always fit the mold for a characters powers. He knew how to defeat Chaos, attacking its brain consecutively with powerful blows. This is like saying Baby Mario is just as strong as Regular Mario, tbh.



I already addressed this. He knew how to beat Chaos ever since his first encounter with Chaos at the beginning of Sonic Adventure. Knowing how to beat Chaos is irrelevant if you aren't powerful enough to do it. You know why Sonic and Knuckles had to use Eggman's drones against Chaos 6? Because they were too weak to hurt him on their own.

Whether Sonic even defeated Chaos the first time around is questionable, too. Tails says that Chaos was neutralized, which could just as easily mean that Super Sonic's positive energy and Perfect Chaos' negative energy cancelled each other out and returned both of them to normal.

And that analogy is stupid. Your argument is more like claiming Super Mario Sunshine Mario is in a completely different league than Super Mario 64 Mario.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> All I'm hearing is that it's impossible for Sonic to gain more strength. Though there it is, he defeated the fully powered Chaos. So... you guys can have your doubts but obviously the actual creators of the characters have more pull than you do.



Staying with this. You can send them emails, or letters or whatever, but the series has confirmed that Base Sonic has enough strength to take down Chaos. Not saying he's a city buster, just saying he has gained enough in stats to defeat something that strong. And also, Chaos is also a Liquid Incarnate character.

It's also funny that you say Sonic can't have gotten stronger as Sonic has gained the ability to move at light speeds through concentration and taking in Chaos Energy, the ability to warp time and space through Chaos Control, the ability to use Homing Dash to attack enemies. Etc etc....

Also considering some people on his OBD wiki have stated that Sonic is a Town Buster...


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Love how you failed to address any of our points.  Truly you are a master debater.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Never claimed to be. All I'm hearing is moaning and groaning about how Base Sonic shouldn't be strong enough to defeat Chaos.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

So we're honestly sticking with the idea that Eggman's conventional no name mech from the beginning of Unleashed is more powerful than Perfect Chaos?

Makes you wonder why Metal Sonic needed Chaos' power if it became insignificant so quickly.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> So we're honestly sticking with the idea that Eggman's conventional no name mech from the beginning of Unleashed is more powerful than Perfect Chaos?
> 
> Makes you wonder why Metal Sonic needed Chaos' power if it became insignificant so quickly.



I never said that, nor did I hint towards it. Chaos is a powerful asset to Eggman because he was (and still is) a living embodiment of Chaos. However, he only used half the emeralds powers in order to fight Sonic, meaning that his power was probably incomplete or something along those lines, but that's fallacious as that would mean all Super Forms either were incomplete or only used positive or negative powers if they were connected to Chaos Energy.

Either way Sonic has shown the power to defeat Perfect Chaos, it's canon to the main series, what can you do but become confused.


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Staying with this. You can send them emails, or letters or whatever, but the series has confirmed that Base Sonic has enough strength to take down Chaos. Not saying he's a city buster, just saying he has gained enough in stats to defeat something that strong. And also, Chaos is also a Liquid Incarnate character.
> 
> It's also funny that you say Sonic can't have gotten stronger as Sonic has gained the ability to move at light speeds through concentration and taking in Chaos Energy, the ability to warp time and space through Chaos Control, the ability to use Homing Dash to attack enemies. Etc etc....
> 
> Also considering some people on his OBD wiki have stated that Sonic is a Town Buster...



Which would imply that base Sonic=Super Sonic.  See how this is retarded?

Base Sonic's Lightspeed Dash is only called such to make it sound cool and Chaos Control is only usable with a Chaos Emerald.  And we never said that Sonic hasn't gotten stronger, just not as strong as Super Sonic.

And the wiki doesn't call base Sonic a town buster, you twit.  It's referring to Super Sonic.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> I never said that, nor did I hint towards it.



Except that's what your argument leads to. Base Sonic defeated Perfect Chaos, yet lost to Eggman's nameless mech in about thirty seconds. Clearly the mech is vastly superior based on simple logic.



> Either way Sonic has shown the power to defeat Perfect Chaos, it's canon to the main series, what can you do but become confused.



Or perhaps...



> Perfect Chaos being weaker in Generations due to Time Eater shenanigans fits the evidence much better than Sonic getting orders of magnitude more powerful for no real reason.


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## Xiammes (Nov 10, 2012)

> Which would imply that base Sonic=Super Sonic. See how this is retarded?



Stop assuming Perfect Chaos was equal in power to Super Sonic and it stops being retarded.

Still Sonic Generations doesn't make much sense in regards to power levels.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

sonic546 said:


> Which would imply that base Sonic=Super Sonic.  See how this is retarded?
> 
> Base Sonic's Lightspeed Dash is only called such to make it sound cool and Chaos Control is only usable with a Chaos Emerald.  And we never said that Sonic hasn't gotten stronger, just not as strong as Super Sonic.
> 
> And the wiki doesn't call base Sonic a town buster, you twit.  It's referring to Super Sonic.



Or... Super Sonic got stronger as well... are we really doing this?

Didn't say he got as strong as Super Sonic. Beating Chaos =/= Being a Base Super Sonic.

I know that. Which is why I'm puzzled why he's only a Town Buster when he has beaten characters much more powerful than that? Does that.... make any sense? Somethings gotta give if he can beat something that is known to destroy the earth each time its awakened. Might not be planet level but there's a good chance he has more power than just destroying a Town.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

Xiammes said:


> Stop assuming Perfect Chaos was equal in power to Super Sonic and it stops being retarded.



Why would we stop assuming that when it's the logical conclusion, considering each was using half of the Chaos Emeralds' energy? Their 'stat distribution' (so to speak) might be different, but the total amount of energy available to them should be the same.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Why would we stop assuming that when it's the logical conclusion, considering each was using half of the Chaos Emeralds' energy? Their 'stat distribution' (so to speak) might be different, but the total amount of energy available to them should be the same.



That's not necessarily true. Obviously, Sonic attacked his weak spot consecutively their is nothing to say he'd be able to destroy the entire body without attacking the weak spot. Then again  a lot of platformers and whatnot do this.


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## sonic546 (Nov 10, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Didn't say he got as strong as Super Sonic. Beating Chaos =/= Being a Base Super Sonic.
> 
> I know that. Which is why I'm puzzled why he's only a Town Buster when he has beaten characters much more powerful than that? Does that.... make any sense? Somethings gotta give if he can beat something that is known to destroy the earth each time its awakened. Might not be planet level but there's a good chance he has more power than just destroying a Town.



That's what your argument logically leads to.  

And all those much more powerful characters were beaten with assistance.


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

sonic546 said:


> That's what your argument logically leads to.
> 
> And all those much more powerful characters were beaten with assistance.



With or without assistance S. Sonic being town level makes no sense when he can still defeat a planetbuster. That assistance was Chip trying to hold it back.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 10, 2012)

You know, Gomu, Super Sonic/Shadow/Silver surviving a fight with Solaris is canon too.

Are we going to pretend that's legitimate as well now?


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## Gomu (Nov 10, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> You know, Gomu, Super Sonic/Shadow/Silver surviving a fight with Solaris is canon too.
> 
> Are we going to pretend that's legitimate as well now?



It is legitimate. Do you mean illegitimate? But they didn't actually defeat him, as they had to travel back to when he was only a flame and below him away. Solaris was a Uni/Multiversal threat wasn't he? They didn't actually do much damage to em though as he still survived and it was a futile effort anyway.

Edit: I said not legitimate, meh.


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## sonic546 (Nov 11, 2012)

Gomu said:


> It is legitimate. Do you mean illegitimate? But they didn't actually defeat him, as they had to travel back to when he was only a flame and below him away. Solaris was a Uni/Multiversal threat wasn't he? They didn't actually do much damage to em though as he still survived and it was a futile effort anyway.
> 
> Edit: I said not legitimate, meh.



It isn't legitimate.  The fact that they didn't instantly get poofed out of existence is a blatant outlier.


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## Gomu (Nov 11, 2012)

sonic546 said:


> It isn't legitimate.  The fact that they didn't instantly get poofed out of existence is a blatant outlier.



Once again. Why don't you use your pull with Sega to tell them how to use their characters. You do realize stupid shit like characters not being killed by other characters that are way over their strength isn't just common with Sonic right? It's an outlier, so what? They didn't really do any damage to Solarius as it was an abstract being that had to be destroyed by an entity that could either erase its existence or move back in time when it was first created. Though the ability of the Chaos Emeralds could also have something to do with it, after all "more powerful" users of it can use it to move through space and time, what keeps them from being unable to resist being time fucked?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 11, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Though the ability of the Chaos Emeralds could also have something to do with it, after all "more powerful" users of it can use it to move through space and time, what keeps them from being unable to resist being time fucked?



Probably the fact that Solaris is vastly more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds.


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## Gomu (Nov 11, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Probably the fact that Solaris is vastly more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds.



Do we know that for a fact since only one type of energy per Chaos Emerald power has been fueled to beat the bosses? What if both the positive and negative energies were used to strengthen the aspects of the user, it could potentially be more powerful. And once more, what keeps Chaos Energy from having properties of stopping time fuckery?

Also Mephilis has an extreme amount of arrogance and is the mind behind Solaris, what if he was also toying with them as well?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 11, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Do we know that for a fact since only one type of energy per Chaos Emerald power has been fueled to beat the bosses? What if both the positive and negative energies were used to strengthen the aspects of the user, it could potentially be more powerful. And once more, what keeps Chaos Energy from having properties of stopping time fuckery?
> 
> Also Mephilis has an extreme amount of arrogance and is the mind behind Solaris, what if he was also toying with them as well?



The Chaos Emeralds are planetary when used together. Solaris is multiversal. Not a difficult conclusion to reach, unless you think adding the other half of the Chaos Emeralds' energy magnifies their power countless times over.

And the only other multiversal power in Sonic, the Power of the Stars from Sonic Rush Adventure, is outright confirmed to be more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds combined.

Nothing stops the Chaos Emeralds from resisting time manipulation, but it clearly won't do any good against something orders of magnitude more powerful with superior control over space and time.

And considering that Solaris was in the process of collapsing reality, I don't see any reason for it to toy with them.


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## Gomu (Nov 11, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The Chaos Emeralds are planetary when used together. Solaris is multiversal. Not a difficult conclusion to reach, unless you think adding the other half of the Chaos Emeralds' energy magnifies their power countless times over.
> 
> And the only other multiversal power in Sonic, the Power of the Stars from Sonic Rush Adventure, is outright confirmed to be more powerful than the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds combined.
> 
> ...



Because above all, Mephilis was a prick throughout the entirety of '09. He was an extremely arrogant manipulative bastard and obviously savored the fact that he w as going to win the battle. A problem that many villains have in videogames (and fiction in many instances) instead of actually doing their last threat in with an attack they won't survive against. It's a stupid characteristic but Mephilis would do something as idiotic like that just to see them squirm.

There is no reason for any extremely powerful villain to toy with the heroes in most fiction where they are seeming unbeatable, but yet...


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 11, 2012)

I love Sonic Generations, but it makes no goddamn sense if you stop to think about it. 
If it does anything, it just retcons Chaos as weaker. We usually consider retcons different characters around her.  
Also, there are two different versions of the game, which is canon? In the 3DS version, he fights the Biolizard, but it takes _more_ hits to down him this time around, exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from a stronger Sonic.


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## Sablés (Nov 11, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Because above all, Mephilis was a prick throughout the entirety of '09. He was an extremely arrogant manipulative bastard and obviously savored the fact that he w as going to win the battle. A problem that many villains have in videogames (and fiction in many instances) instead of actually doing their last threat in with an attack they won't survive against. It's a stupid characteristic but Mephilis would do something as idiotic like that just to see them squirm.
> 
> There is no reason for any extremely powerful villain to toy with the heroes in most fiction where they are seeming unbeatable, but yet...



Is it ever stated that Mephiles still retained a consciousness once he merged with Iblis?


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## Gomu (Nov 11, 2012)

~King of Heroes~ said:


> Is it ever stated that Mephiles still retained a consciousness once he merged with Iblis?



I'm not even gonna begin to describe how shitty this sounds... They merged consciousnesses with one another. Mephilis was the spirit/intellect, Iblis was the raw power, the fucker went where Mephilis told him to merged or not.



Azrael Finalstar said:


> I love Sonic Generations, but it makes no goddamn sense if you stop to think about it.
> If it does anything, it just retcons Chaos as weaker. We usually consider retcons different characters around her.
> Also, there are two different versions of the game, which is canon? In the 3DS version, he fights the Biolizard, but it takes _more_ hits to down him this time around, exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from a stronger Sonic.



Except Sonic never went against the Biolizard in his base form... and Biolizard wasn't actually defeated in battle with Shadow...


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## Azrael Finalstar (Nov 11, 2012)

Gomu said:


> Except Sonic never went against the Biolizard in his base form... and Biolizard wasn't actually defeated in battle with Shadow...


Shadow did, who was basically equal with Sonic. And going by your logic, we don't even know if Sonic beat the base Biolizard either.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 11, 2012)

When taking both versions into account and excluding the Time Eater, the boss lineup looks like this:

Death Egg Robot
Big Arm
Perfect Chaos
Biolizard
Egg Dragoon
Egg Emperor

One of these things is not like the others. Can you figure out which one it is?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 11, 2012)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> When taking both versions into account and excluding the Time Eater, the boss lineup looks like this:
> 
> Death Egg Robot
> Big Arm
> ...



big arm?


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## scerpers (Nov 12, 2012)

Perfect Chaos has complete and total control over water in a God like scale. Does this take place in flooded Central Station? Then it wins. It can also create tornadoes of water and water spouts. More than enough to confuse Biollante for a bit until PC readies it's giant "Fuck You" laser.

Tentacles to hold and pin down Biollante. Does Biollante have any long range attacks? If not I doubt it'll be able to get close enough to PC without being constrained by it's tentacles then blasted into infinity with lasers and energy projectiles.

Mostly it all comes down to whether "Open Your Heart" is playing. If it is, then PC wins.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 12, 2012)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Perfect Chaos has complete and total control over water in a God like scale. Does this take place in flooded Central Station? Then it wins. It can also create tornadoes of water and water spouts. More than enough to confuse Biollante for a bit until PC readies it's giant "Fuck You" laser.
> 
> Tentacles to hold and pin down Biollante. Does Biollante have any long range attacks? If not I doubt it'll be able to get close enough to PC without being constrained by it's tentacles then blasted into infinity with lasers and energy projectiles.
> 
> Mostly it all comes down to whether "Open Your Heart" is playing. If it is, then PC wins.



[YOUTUBE]z3psqWKY7Yk[/YOUTUBE]
This is playing


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## Bioness (Nov 12, 2012)

I always felt this theme better suited Biollante.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNuX8O0PZQk[/YOUTUBE]


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## scerpers (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't know. On the "Power up theme" scale it doesn't rank very high.


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## Bioness (Nov 12, 2012)

Biollante never really powered up, she was simply pissed because Godzilla torched her the first time for no reason.


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## scerpers (Nov 12, 2012)

Godzilla is a dick.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Nov 12, 2012)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Godzilla is a dick.



Biollante is a plant godzilla so she must be a real prickle as well.


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