# SM Hashirama vs BSM Naruto



## Cognitios (Aug 31, 2014)

Apparently this needs to made, yet again
Location VOTE:
Distance: 100 meters
Restrictions: None
Knowledge: Reputation
Mindset: In it to win it
Restrictions: Single-Statement Arguments

> inb4 single statement arguments
> inb4 OP can't inb4


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## Rocky (Aug 31, 2014)

I don't really know who would win, to be honest. Extreme difficulty either way. I lean towards Naruto because of the blaring physical stat difference and the fact that Rasenshuriken oneshots through any regeneration.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 31, 2014)

BSM Naruto. He's far faster, far more durable, has better reflexes than SM Hashirama, and has far greater firepower than SM Hashirama (given his Bijudama could now damage Gudodama's).


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## Bonly (Aug 31, 2014)

Oh boy it's this thread again. As always I feel it'll be a close long match but I'd tend to favor Hashi due to the whole match-up thing when it comes to Mokuton in general and Naruto's time limit of 8 to 11(maybe 12) minutes but this close none the less. And on that note, I'm gone


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## JuicyG (Aug 31, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Apparently this needs to made, yet again
> Location VOTE:
> Distance: 100 meters
> Restrictions: None
> ...





I'll quote what I said in the neighbor thread...

_"Durability-wise, Naruto has already blocked an attack more powerful than Shinsuusenjuu's barrage in BM. In SM, Hashirama's attacks shouldn't do anything serious to him. Naruto already had the firepower to at least contend with shinsuusenjuu in the form of a super bijuudama, but with his damas augumented by SM power meaning they get massively larger and more powerful. Kurama is much less useful than an actual jin controlling that power into finer points of attack.

Then there's the fact that he should be much faster, and his shunshin already moves him at speeds that Hashi wont be able to react to. Then there's things like KCMSM/BM SM/ KCM/ SM clones throwing FRS from within the chakra cloak, FRS that can cut through the juubi's tails and devastate half the chibaku tensei crater with its Aoe."_

BSM Naruto has the firepower, the speed & reflexes, and the durability to deal with SM Hashirama. What more does he need ?


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## Kyu (Aug 31, 2014)

_Senpō: Chō Bijūdama_ trumps any jutsu Hashirama has bar possibly _ShinSūsenju_. Naruto can easily evade Hashi's Mokuton if he doesn't have his fox avatar up.

Although, that could pose a problem if his most destructive nuke requires his full Biju mantle to be erect. Hashirama magically having the power to subdue jinchuriki powers probably gives him the victory - provided that he survives Chō BD.

Battle could swing in either direction.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2014)

Naruto wins end os discussion. U_U
both Tobirama and Black zetsu approve of that...

as for "no single statement" Well, this might be old, but whatever. lol

BSM Naruto Vs Hashirama. 

Why BSM Naruto is more than enough to defeat Hashirama? 
or at least stronger than him, if we were to take the so called "advantage" and ignore everything else. Let's start with what I considered one of the most important, if not *The* most important thing in any battle, SPEED. 

Speed:

Naruto is one of the fastest characters ever in this story. At first when he used his speed even though he did not realize that, or was not able to control it in a good way, he still managed to attack Kisame, and astonished who was there with him [1][2]. When he controlled his speed, and chakra, he was even able to outpaced A, the guy who was known to be the fastest shinobi alive [1][2]. The kid is so fast, that he managed to redirect 5 of TBBs at once that Kakashi mistaken him to Minato [1]. Notice that was his FIRST transformation with Kurama, which the latter stated that it was not perfect [1]. However, throughout the War that changed and Naruto became better than how he was as stated by Kurama [1].  Notice, that this was only BM Naruto, NOT BSM Naruto who's logically faster than BM Naruto if we took what SM does in consideration. 

Now, on the other hand the only thing is there for Hashirama's speed is this scan [1]. Which is wrong in so many levels. First of all, some people claimed that, Hashirama being ahead of the TBB means he is faster than it. However, that statement is wrong because Hashirama was ALREADY ahead of it, it's like saying that he is faster than madara because he started ahead of him! [1]. In addition to that, in that first scan, when Hashirama noticed that the TBB behind him, he just landed and summoned the gates. Summoning jutsu is S/T JUTSU, which obviously means it will be able to make it, the summoning speed is NOT the user's speed, so Hashirama is not as fast because his gates appeared fast. 

The other thing, (even though I disagree with), but if we take what some people think about the Hokage's arrival to the battlefield, they think that the Hokages used their shunshin [1]. In that case, Hashirama's so called great speed is actually no different than that of Hiruzen's who only took 3 in the databook in term of speed. So, all that great speed in the eyes of Kishi, is not as great as what some people think.

lastly, throughout the Series, when was Hashirama EVER being praised for his speed? That's right, he has never been praised for such thing. Fighting madara is cool and all, but that does not mean they have equal ability in every single thing. Especially that their battle was about NINJUTSU, not SPEED. So, we can't really give madara's spped feats to Hashirama. If everyone fight against the other means they do have all of their ability or exactly equal, then Naruto would have been a master at genjutsu. Or for that matter Lee would have been able to use Ninjutsu, or Kakashi would have been as fast as guy, and just as powerful with taijutsu as him, but that is NOT the case. 

So, by the evidence we have from the manga Naruto is MUCH faster than Hashirama. That gives him the ability to

dodge Hashirama's jutsus more effectively
Attacks with a higher chance to land his attacks than miss them
Being the first to make attacks, and perhaps even landing them at the start

Sage Mode. 

SM is an amazing mode that increase a lot of things to the user. That is why I'll cover more than just SM in the section. Let's start with SM sensing ability. Depending on one's ability, he might get or be able to sense the area around him. Naruto for example has such amazing sensing ability that he uses to sense the chakra around him, and use it in his fights as well. Naruto at the the first time used his SM he was able to sense the people in Konoha, and thus knowing what happened to kakashi [1]. He also was able to sense Nagato's location after that by striking himself with the black rods, and other feats. If we focused on his greatest sensing feats, one of them would be when he was able to sense all people in the War [1], and when he was able to locate the black orbs on the Bijuus [1][2]. ِand since this is BSM Naruto, he also showed that he can sense people hatred so to speak, which exceeds any sensor [1][2]. That's beside his ability to sense the Hokages from countries away [1]. He also can use those sensing abilities in his fights to know and dodge his foes attacks [1][2][3]. 

On the other hand, Hashirama has not shown any feat whatsoever for sensing with his SM. The only "hint" for him is what Tobirama said that he is better than him at sensing [1]. 

So, what we get from that is the fact that Naruto is better than Hashirama by far in term of sensing as well. He can even sense and attack people as fast as JJ obito, and dodge and counter attack the raikage. In addition to that, we know that even if Hashirama used his ability to hid inside his woods, Naruto will be able to know about him just like How he knew about the zetsus. Therefore, Hashirama won't be able to do any surprise attacks on Naruto. 

Second thing that SM gives to the user is durability and strength. First, if we were to look at Naruto's abilities in that regard, he is simply one of the best if not the best. Naruto's body was strong enough to not even be scratch from the rocks when he fell down [1]. And Even when Nagato attacked him with the black rod, Naruto's body was strong enough to endure that [1], or even destroy the black rod with his own hand [1]. On the other hand, Hashirama's SM, which does not have a lot of Senjutsu chakra [1], and that's a reason to why he is lacking in that regard as well, madara was able to put 6 (4 on some panels) black rods on him and control him easily* [1]. Even Sasuke was able to cut through madara's body easily with his sword without even using lightning to make it stronger [1]. So, once again, Naruto's SM even without being strengthen by BM is still better than Hashirama's. 

* One may argue and say "Are you trying to compare Nagato's black rods to madara's?"
while that might be a reasonable response in the first look, but once you look at it a little deeper, it's not. It's true that Madara is stronger than Nagato, but so is Hashirama much stronger than Pain Arc SM Naruto. The thing is, Naruto was able to resist someone's chakra who was stronger than him (Nagato), but Hashirama was not able to do so to someone who's on the same level or a little bit stronger than him.

The kid is so talented that he can use SM with his clones [1]. Unlike Hashirama who cannot do such thing [1][2][3]. ِAlso, the kid is overwhelming with talent that he can control the chakra around him and use it to make his punch at a higher rang [1]. He has so much physical power that he can throw Boss Summons as if they were nothing [1] and even Kurama himself [1].  His taijutsu is so strong than its effect can be even from the inside to the out side of a Bijuu's body [1]. Not to mention how he kicked Deva Path twice and sent him flying with both times. 

On the other hand, we have not seen this level of taijutsu from Hashirama. Again, Notice that this is SM Naruto's feat WITHOUT his BM which obviously makes his abilities much stronger. Speaking of BM, he also has access to Chakra Arms which gives him more chances to his his foe even of the latter somehow dodged him [1].


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 31, 2014)

BSM naruto fights on the same level as sasukes V3 legged susano.

BSM naruto fights on this level:


hashirama fights on this level:

and this is without the use of his full power. 
that is only portrayal wise.


feat wise, the kurama avatar will be getting absolutely no action against a mokuton user on hashiramas level.




all that is left is BSM naruto in human form. hashirama would have zero difficulty reacting to narutos movements.

hashirama in base form reacted to the same branches that easily restrained BSM naruto.






and before somebody brings up some ridiculous argument about the shinju going after naruto because he had the most chakra:

*Spoiler*: __ 



_Hashirama: "I can't believe he had shared his chakra with every other shinobi! 
*He's got almost as much chakra as I!"*
(No! Actually, this has nine tails' chakra mixed in...)_




hashirama(his clone actually) states that naruto has *almost* as much chakra as him while he is melded with minato and the other half of kurama.

so if the shinju was going after naruto doggedly for his chakra, it pursued hashirama with an even greater tenacity. naruto got restrained, hashirama dodged them without looking while having a conversation with madara.

in conclusion, hashirama rips narutos kurama avatar away with the mokuryu, then he kills him with any choice of large scale mokuton.

these characters operate on completely different tiers.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2014)

TO SUM THINGS UP SO FAR. 

Naruto has a superior speed, sensing, Taijutsu, senjutsu, and durability than that of Hashirama.  The odds of Hashirama being able to dodge Naruto who's far faster than him via his lacking sensing abilities according to Tobirama is really slum. However, even IF that by a miracles happened, Naruto's ability to control the natural energy around him and his chakra arms will guarantee him landing his attacks successfully on Hashirama since the latter either wont know about it, or he won't get the chance to dodge that beside Naruto.

Knowledge and tricks. 

Some people focus on "Raw Power" So much that they do not pay attention to other factors they may change the outcome of the fight. Naruto in his fights showed a lot of tricks that always worked for him. Examples of these would be, when he turned himself to be like a shurekin, so he can free kakashi from Zabuza, when he turned himself to Akamaru and fooled Kiba. When he made the hole and clone to fool Neji...etc
you can see him thinking out of the box in a lmost all of his fights like with Kakuzu, Pain, and obito..etc 

On the other hand, we have not really seen anything like that from Hashirama, his fights are pretty much straight forward battles, and he (from what we have seen) rely on raw power. However, the only trick I can think of that he did is fooling madara with his wooden clone. Even though that won't work with Naruto because of his sensing abilities. 

Summoning Jutsu.

For this point, even though Naruto wouldn't probably use them in a fight, but since I'm talking about his full power which includes his summoning jutsu, I'll take them in consideration. first of all, Naruto can use any and all the frogs, which they are pretty much those [1]. With Gamakichi being as big as the others obviously. Now, each of the frogs is as big as a Bijuu [1][2]. Which is just as big, if not bigger that Hashirama's wooden Human, who is also as tall as Kurama [1]. So, it's like fighting 4 of those at the same time. Also, The frogs do have such a strong attacks that is comparable to the Shukaku's, and they can destroy what is in their path, such as the wood [1][2][3]. Notice each one of Gamabunta's attacks was as strong as 2 of Shukaku's attacks. 

In addition to that, the size of the frogs is actually more than enough to roll over the wood and destroy it by only moving [1][2]. While Hashi's wood jutsus, in term of size it only comparably to the Human's size [1][2]. So, the frogs will be really good to counter those type of Hashirama's jutsu, especially that they do have jutsus like. Oil, Fire, Wind, Water...etc
so even the Pollen jutsu won't be good because Shima can simply use her wind jutsu to take that away. 

Now remember that those are their feats WITHOUT any power up, when we do know that Naruto can make them like at least 3X stronger than how they really are [1][2]. So, all of their jutsus are going to be stronger than the normal. 

Frog Song. 

I have to put this by itself. First of all, Hashirama does not have any counter for the genjutsu as far as we know, and no, being Hashirama does not mean crap. If this jutsu landed, only the user who can give the order to free the victim or not [1][2]. So, it's a one shot move. However, obviously, the other side will say "It will take a lot of time" and all that things, which is cool and fine, but they always overlook that Naruto's chakra makes absorption of SM MUCH faster as was stated here [1]. Therefore, it will NOT take Ma & Pa that much time to use it, especially if Hashirama is fighting Naruto and the other frogs, they will have the time to use it. Hashirama does not know anything about this jutsu, so he won't be able to guess what are they doing, even Jiraiya and Nagato did not know about this jutsu, so there is no way Hashirama would. The moment they use their genjutsu, it's all over.

Chakra. 

Well, this shouldn't take this long we have a direct comparison between the two of them. We have seen Hashirama stated the chakra BM Naruto HAD SHARED is comparable to his [1]. Obviously, Hashirama is referring to Naruto by saying "He, His, has". Of course, some Hashirama's fanboys deny that and try to play around with it. However, even if we ignored Viz translation for those kind of fanboys, let's take a look at this debate

First I asked talk about the translation of that page, which he answered



			
				takl said:
			
		

> hash: amazing that he has his chakra (already) passed to everyone of shinobi!(= amazing that he had passed his chakra to everyon of shinobi beforehand!)
> he competes with me in volume of chakra. (=The amount of his chakra rivals that of mine.)
> hash: ! nay! this is along with 9bs chakra (=it contains 9bs chakra along with narutos) ...



Then I asked him 



> May you tell if in the Japanese text Hashi's words meant to be taken
> like if his chakra >/= Naruto, Minato and Kurama's all together
> 
> or
> ...



Then Glutamminajr kindly claimed his opinion


> ^
> I think that Hashirama was talking about the amount of chakra that Naruto passed to the others and - based on that - he thought that it was Naruto's chakra alone that was comparable with his.Then he noticed Kurama's chakra mixed with Naruto's one, but frankly I don't know if this can be translated as Naruto's overall chakra + Kurama's overall chakra = Hashirama's overall chakra.
> 
> 
> Btw I'd like takl's comment too on this



Which takl agreed with by saying


> i agree with Glutamminajr
> in the second line hashs speaking in terms of quantity based on the fact that everyone has naruto's chakra (with kulamas) that was handed over before the edo hokages + yin kulama got to the field as said in the first line... hm, i guess i better use 'beforehand' instead of 'already' to make it clear.
> and its not like hash saw how much chakra naruto (/naruto and kulama) has in total.
> 
> the comment just means hash also has a sufficient amount of chakra to give away to everyone of the allies at there. i doubt hes handy enough to pull the chakra conversion trick naruto and minato do tho. and thats why he's surprised to see kulamas chakra in it. kulamas chakra was supposed to be harmful to humans, u know.



Now, I don't not about you, but I'd rather talk what a worthy translator as takl said, than some randoms fanboys. 
So, based on that, I think it's only logical that BSM Naruto has more chakra than Hashirama. 

Summing Up, 2. 

BSM Naruto has more chakra, he also can have several boss summons to help him with their huge arsenal. The Pa & Ma have Frog Song which is a one shot jutsu that Hashirama can do nothing about it. In addition to that, Naruto has been shown to think out side the box and he was praised to be #1 in that regard, so the possibility that he will trick Hashirama is still there, not necessarily work, but he can do it.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2014)

Jutsus. 

Perhaps, this is the strongest point that some people hold against Naruto. First of all, I think we can all agree that the host of a Bijuu is stronger than the Bijuu itself as was stated [1], the same thing was stated by Deidara as well. Now, some people act as if defeating Kurama is like walk in the park for Hashirama, when Hashirama stated that Kurama's power is too great [1], and Mito actually had to help him [1]. Although that was not shown on panel. 

Although the wood jutsus can be hard to deal with, but that does not mean they are impossible to deal with. As a matter of fact we have already seen an exhausted base Naruto's clone destroy one of Hashirama's jutsu [1]. And although, Naruto has some terrible with the wooden Dragon the first time he faced it, but at the end of the day he was able to destroy it with his speed only, let alone a jutsu [1]. and we saw that once again against the wooden dragon when Naruto easily destroyed it [1].  So, with knowledge, and the experience he has with those jutsus, overcome them won't be as easy as the first time.  Not to mention that we have seen those jutsus get destroyed by a SMALL TBB as well [1][2]. Therefore, Naruto has really so many ways to destroy those jutsus. 

Now, someone may say "Well, That is full Kurama, not only 50%" even though that may be true, but it's irrelevant to Naruto's ability. The TBB that Kurama used is only as big as its mouth, when we saw Naruto used much bigger TBB than that like what he did against the 5 Bijuus, or the Juubi which the TBB was bigger than the beast itself.

Another argument might be that the Wooden Human can catch Naruto's jutsus like FRS, COFRS and the others. However, that claim is wrong in so many levels. First of all, It's true that the Wooden Human is able to catch a sword, but how is he going to catch the wind? I know some people avoid using common sense, but even in that case, it was actually stated in the manga as such [1]. Thus, the FRS or the other version of it is going to cut through the wood easily because it simply cannot be caught. 

let's take what happened in chapter 673 as an EXAMPLE. We saw the lava FRS cut through the entire Tree. Now, some may say "the lava FRS IS MUCH stronger than BSM Naruto's FRS" Well, that's cool story and all, but so is the Tree is MUCH stronger than all of Hashirama's jutsus, the point is, Naruto will not need a FRS as big or anything, since Hashi's Buddha is even smaller than V2 Juubi, let alone the Tree which is MUCH bigger than that.

Now, let's take a look at how FRS cut through a lot of things in case some people forget about its cutting ability. The first time Naruto started to learn how to throw it 
[1], then after a while we saw what happened to those hills if you will [1]. He then even showed that he can make his FRS much bigger, and it still has the ability to cut through and erase everything on contract [1][2][3]. That's beside cutting through mountains [1][2]. Notice from the second photo that its explosion was as big as half the area that the CT destroyed, which is bigger than several mountains [1]. The CT size is actually comparable to Hashirama's Buddha [1]. Notice in the CT scan, the hole is as big as around 4-6 mountains you can see it under it, and about the same with Hashi's Buddha including the arms, as you can see the mountains their as well. Now, all that was the normal FRS, which Naruto showed he is able to use much bigger one [1][2]. *Notice that is with SM ALONE. *


Naruto can use not only SM, but combine it with BM which makes his jutsus much stronger obviously. As a matter of fact it was so strong that his normal rasengans can destroy Hagoromo's shield (and sword?) [1][2], which were hype to heavens [1][2]. Also, notice that Naruto can use his rasengans by his tails [1][2]. Now, obviously, Naruto can replace his friends with his clones [1] and instead of making normal Rasengans, he can use COFRS instead, which obviously be much more powerful.

Just imagine 9 COFRS from 9 clones in his tails, while Naruto can also use at least 5 TBB from where he is, in Kurama's head [1]. Even if the Buddha attacked him in the process, his durability should be enough to endure them like he did to the Juubi's TBB [1] even WITHOUT combining SM with his BM.

Another important point is the fact that the wood has not been shown to be that durable, even the Tree, which I guess even Hashirama's fanboys would agree (I may be wrong though, and perhaps they won't agree)that is a higher level than Hashi's jutsus was cut several times without much of terrible [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. Even if looked at those who have much weaker wood jutsus, the wood was being easily destroyed [1][2][3]. So, I see no reason to why should I think that Naruto won't be able to do so!



Hype. 

I won't bring every single statement about those two, but what *I* think is the most important to highlight. 

First of all, let's start with Hashi's statement that he is weaker than obito [1]. Of course, fanboys were so fast to claim that his statement to be taken as if he is the strongest on the battlefield from the good guys. However, is that true? No. 

The first reason is actually funny because those fanboys themselves discredits the statement that Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama because according to them, the ignorance of Hashi's power from the other characters. Now, why don't they use the same logic here? At least in the first example Hashirama was dead, so knowing about his ability, a guy from the past, is perfectly fine, just like how any of us know about characters excited before us. However, the opposite is NOT true, Hashirama was dead, so he cannot possibly know about any other characters came after him and how powerful they are.  

The second reason, which is the more important one actually is the fact that kishi has proven their assumptions to be WRONG.  The fact that Gai was on the battlefield discredit/destroy their claims since Gai is way out of Hashirama's level, he's just that much more powerful than Hashirama. Thus, if kishi wanted "The most powerful" one to state that he is weaker, he wouldn't have chosen Hashirama, but rather he would have chosen Gai who was the most powerful one on the battlefield per obito (even though the only reason to that is because of obito's regeneration as a the JJ).


Second of all, what is used to think that Hashirama is "portrayed" to be more powerful than BSM Naruto is this statement/s [1]. 

The key word is "surpass" some people think that just because Sasuke [who was weaker than Naruto] was weaker than madara [who is stronger than Hashirama] means that Naruto was also stronger than Hashirama!!

Now, notice that Oro DID say Sasuke will surpass madara one day, which indicates that Sasuke was indeed weaker than madara when that statement was made. *HOWEVER*,  Tobirama did *NOT* say the same thing, so their is NO portrayed to Hashirama to be superior to Naruto at that point to begin with. 

If kishi intended to show Naruto as inferior to Hashirama at that point, he would have made Tobirama state the same thing Oro said which is "Naruto will surpass my big brother one day" Or something along those lines. The FACT, that he didn't does not indicate that Hashirama is stronger, but pretty much the opposite. Naruto was portrayed to be stronger than Hashirama at that point, and that's why it wouldn't have made sense if Tobirama states that Naruto will surpass Hashirama, when he was already stronger than him to begin with! 

That's pretty much my view on them. I don't know if I missed some details or thing here or there!


This is no "single statement" so, I guess far enough. lol

Narudo still solos..


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## Jagger (Aug 31, 2014)

I was going to jump into the discussion, but then I saw Hussain's gigantic tl;dr, so nah.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2014)

^ all that could have been avoided if people believe in what Kishi say. U_U


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

SM Hashirama baby shakes. The Budda statues defeated the Full Kyuubi protected by PS like it was nothing, and Naruto only has 50% of Kyuubi. His Sage Mode isn't gonna make up for the other half of the Kyuubi, let alone for that and PS. Then theres the Wood dragon which absorbs Kyuubi chakra, and Hashirama's overall control over Kyuubi, and Bijuudama blocking capabilities.

Hashirama wins this with low difficulty.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Most of it is biased and has been proven wrong on multiple occasions and he copypastes into everytime something like this thread is made, even when new developments come into place
> "Insanity is trying the same thing multiple times and expecting different results" - Einstein



New development? 

What has Hashirama ever did in this war other than being left over fodder? :rofl
all of what he did is literally TnJ. lol 

the only development we got is BZ's statement which further prove my point. And as far as I know
is people like you who go against what Kishi's statements are the bias, not the other way around.

but, if going with the manga is bias, well then, sure I'm. 

Einstein: 'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe"


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## JuicyG (Aug 31, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> SM Hashirama baby shakes. The Budda statues defeated the Full Kyuubi protected by PS like it was nothing, and Naruto only has 50% of Kyuubi. His Sage Mode isn't gonna make up for the other half of the Kyuubi, let alone for that and PS. Then theres the Wood dragon which absorbs Kyuubi chakra, and Hashirama's overall control over Kyuubi, and Bijuudama blocking capabilities.
> 
> Hashirama wins this with low difficulty.




Madara didn't have the physical attributes either though. LIke Hussian explained very well, the speed is clearly in Naruto's favor. Leave it with that and add the extra firepower Madara didn't seem to express and thats why you have BSM > SM Hashirama


--------------------------------------

I think I read someone post that BSM Naruto is fighting on V3 Susanoo level Sasuke...I will post this link to confirm otherwise...

1

Sasuke is clearly showing that he is inferior to Naruto at this point and is showing his frustration over the fact


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## Cognitios (Aug 31, 2014)

> New development?


Do you even know when Hussain first wrote that? There have been developments constantly in the manga, showing both strengths and weaknesses of characters, including weaknesses of bsm naruto. Developments don't necessarily mean feats of characters.


> What has Hashirama ever did in this war other than being left over fodder?
> all of what he did is literally TnJ. lol


hashirama's entire strength was shown during the war arc so i have no idea what your talking about.


> the only development we got is BZ's statement which further prove my point. And as far as I know
> is people like you who go against what Kishi's statements are the bias, not the other way around.


If you want me to go by kishi's statements then by all means i will, not like any character but my fave has been called invinsible.


> but, if going with the manga is bias, well then, sure I'm.


So Itachi > everyone in the manga?


> Einstein: 'Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe"


Glad you realize your faults.


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## Trojan (Aug 31, 2014)

> [=Cognitios;51613570]Do you even know when Hussain first wrote that? There have been developments constantly in the manga, showing both strengths and weaknesses of characters, including weaknesses of bsm naruto. Developments don't necessarily mean feats of characters.


04-17-2014  ***  03:11 PM
last time it was edited, after chapter 673. Hashirama did nothing after that, not even before actually. 



> hashirama's entire strength was shown during the war arc so i have no idea what your talking about.


In a flashback, not in this war itself...


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 31, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Madara didn't have the physical attributes either though. LIke Hussian explained very well, the speed is clearly in Naruto's favor. Leave it with that and add the extra firepower Madara didn't seem to express and thats why you have BSM > SM Hashirama
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------
> ...


1) Hashirama can knock Naruto out with his Flower jutsu before Naruto can do anything.
2) Hashirama can use the Wood Dragon to suck out Naruto's powers like Madara was doing just fine until Gai saved him.
3)Hashirama can have the Budda own Naruto
4) Hashirama can use a clone that only Madara was able to notice because of his EMS to fight Naruto and get Naruto from behind.

You're understimating Hashirama *waaaay *too much. The guy is called the God of shinobi for a reason. And these guys are in such a powerscale that they know and can handle speedsters. *Madara had absolutely noooo problem with all at owning Ei.*
*
And Madara before he was even revived was owning BM Naruto before Gai saved him.*

I know that was BM Naruto and not BSM Naruto, but thats not gonna be enough. BM Naruto couldn't even push Madara that hard, so yes, it might go mid-high diff, but thats it, he is not beating Hashirama.

Hashirama *has waaay more experience* than Naruto. He is smarter than Naruto, and makes less mistakes than Naruto.

Naruto has lost againts opponents he should have technically won againts. *For example, Nagato. Nagato owned Naruto, even though Nagato was immobile, whereas Naruto was fast like hell.*

And like I said, Madara was also owning him.

Naruto hasn't really won a fight on his own without being saved in Part 2. Got saved againts Kakuzu, got saved againts Nagato, got saved againts Pain, got saved againts Deidara, got saved againts Obito, got saved againts Juubito, etc.

Naruto only surpassed Hashirama when he got Rikudou's powers.

Hashirama's overall level would be a good deal above him without the other half of the Kyuubi or PS like Madara had, so speed wouldn't even matter. And you're also unders-timating Hashirama. I mean, the guy not only are Senju's known for having strong bodies, but he was the ultimate Senju, also a reincarnation of Ashura, and he had the strongest perfect Sage Mode ever.

Whats more, Hashirama knew full well about Kyuubi's abilities and also knows about Sage Mode and has technique to fight againts both of them. So I'm sorry, but speed isn't gonna save Naruto. Not againts someone who can change the landscape in a second in Base. We never even got to see SM Hashirama go all out.


----------



## joshhookway (Aug 31, 2014)

Hashirama kinda destroys Naruto. BSM Naruto is an inferior version of Madara's Kyuubi Susanoo.


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## Kyu (Aug 31, 2014)

> BSM Naruto is an inferior version of Madara's Kyuubi Susanoo.



Despite Naruto having better DC, speed, & durability feats?


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## Ruse (Aug 31, 2014)

Hashirama wins with extreme diff not much separating these two in my opinion.


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## Jagger (Sep 1, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Hashirama kinda destroys Naruto. BSM Naruto is an inferior version of Madara's Kyuubi Susanoo.


No, he wouldn't. Whether Hashirama or not wins is debatable, but no one destroys no one in this particular match.

Also, I disagree with said notion given Naruto can exploit Kurama's power in a greater extent than Madara ever did, not to mention Senjutsu that enhances the user's abilities.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Hashirama wins with extreme diff not much separating these two in my opinion.


Why? SM Hashirama has inferior DC, inferior speed, inferior reflexes, and inferior durability to BSM Naruto.


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## Veracity (Sep 1, 2014)

Majority think Hashirama wins. Hashirama wins albeit extreme difficulty. His entire arsenal is tailored to handling Bjuii. He also has the hype advantage as defeating EMS Madara + Full Kurama and being regarded as the God Of Shinobi> Anything Naruto himself has done.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Majority think Hashirama wins. Hashirama wins albeit extreme difficulty. His entire arsenal is tailored to handling Bjuii. He also has the hype advantage as defeating EMS Madara + Full Kurama and being regarded as the God Of Shinobi> Anything Naruto himself has done.


Majority isn't always right dude. Hashirama is inferior in DC, durability, speed, and reflexes compared to BSM Naruto. What's stopping him from being blitzed right off the bat and having a Rasenshuriken tossed through his waist?

Not to mention BSM Naruto also includes this version which kicked Juubi Jin Madara's ass.


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## Rocky (Sep 1, 2014)

This isn't God Mode Nardo. That one stomps Hashirama. BSM Naruto has the potential to win with extreme difficulty if he plays perfectly.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This isn't God Mode Nardo. That one stomps Hashirama. BSM Naruto has the potential to win with extreme difficulty if he plays perfectly.


Heh, I know. But still, Likes Boss claimed that 'God of Shinobi>trumps everything Naruto has done'...


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## ARGUS (Sep 1, 2014)

@Hussain, the long detailed post that you have provided is the same as Ababeels from narutobase, 
are you 2 the same people???

OT - Hashirama wins this

--He uses his mokutons to catch the TBB and can redirrect them right back at naruto 

--He uses SS, and gets it to fire off Chojo Kobetsu which compeltely overwhelms his kurama avatar, and can also use his mokujin to grab the TBB and land them right towards naruto thereby preventing SS, and allwoing it to crush naruto, 

--He can also use his mokuryu to restrain naruto, alongside mokujin whilst he gets SS to overwhelm him compeltely, and SS can also lift his kurama up like a puppy

--Him being in SM would allow him to react and evade BSM narutos speed without much problems 

--the fact that naruto still has a limit in his BSM, as well as the fact that hashiramas mokutons can grab and land the TBB right back at him, and the fact that his SS can overwhelm his kurama avatar, and his mokutons can restrain him, means that hashirama is not losing this,


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## Ghost (Sep 1, 2014)

First of all Sage Mode + 50% perfect Kurama Jinchuuriki >> 100% Kurama in a Susano'o armor. Hashirama is hopelessly outclassed in DC, speed and durability. Shinsuusenju is never gonna land a hit on Naruto unless Hashirama manages to restrain the former with Mokuton, which I don't see happening with the HUGE speed difference. I would love to see how Hashirama is taking a Senpou: Chou Bijuudama.



ARGUS said:


> --Him being in SM would allow him to react and evade BSM narutos speed without much problems



Yeah, no. 

Even if Hashirama would be able to evade BSM Naruto's attacks "without much problems", then why the fuck is Naruto with his own Sage sensing and way superior speed not able to dodge Hashirama's _much_ slower attacks?


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## RedChidori (Sep 1, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> BSM naruto fights on the same level as sasukes V3 legged susano.
> 
> BSM naruto fights on this level:
> 
> ...



I tried to stay away from this thread cuz I KNEW  it will contain big ass posts . Buuuuutttt I agree with this .


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## JuicyG (Sep 1, 2014)

saikyou said:


> *First of all Sage Mode + 50% perfect Kurama Jinchuuriki >> 100% Kurama in a Susano'o armor. Hashirama is hopelessly outclassed in DC, speed and durability. *Shinsuusenju is never gonna land a hit on Naruto unless Hashirama manages to restrain the former with Mokuton, which I don't see happening with the HUGE speed difference. I would love to see *how Hashirama is taking a Senpou: Chou Bijuudama.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...





This seems about right.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> --He uses his mokutons to catch the TBB and can redirrect them right back at naruto


I doubt Mokujin can catch a Senpo empowered Bijudama, much less the super ones Naruto uses regularly. After all, they could bust through Gudodama's.


> --He uses SS, and gets it to fire off Chojo Kobetsu which compeltely overwhelms his kurama avatar, and can also use his mokujin to grab the TBB and land them right towards naruto thereby preventing SS, and allwoing it to crush naruto,


Naruto took an attack more powerful than Choju Kebetsu in straight Biju Mode without any damage.


> --He can also use his mokuryu to restrain naruto, alongside mokujin whilst he gets SS to overwhelm him compeltely, and SS can also lift his kurama up like a puppy


Naruto knows how to make Mokuryu useless by destroying its head. Rasenshuriken or Bijudama takes it out. Shinsusenju is useless since it can't even touch Naruto in Biju Mode, much less BSM.


> --Him being in SM would allow him to react and evade BSM narutos speed without much problems


Prove. It. Hashirama has ZERO reaction or speed feats compared to Naruto. Naruto, who can _blow five Bijudama away by just moving_ in just Biju Mode is far, far faster than Hashirama. BSM Naruto was able to react to Juubito and corner him. While Hashirama got flat out blitzed.


> --the fact that naruto still has a limit in his BSM, as well as the fact that hashiramas mokutons can grab and land the TBB right back at him, and the fact that his SS can overwhelm his kurama avatar, and his mokutons can restrain him, means that hashirama is not losing this,


There was no limit established for BSM. Hashirama's Sage Mode has the five minute limit too since he can't absorb natural energy while moving. And no, he isn't 'catching and redirecting Senpo Bijudama', not to mention Naruto can just use Rasenshurikens (either Cho Odama size or normal) to render Mokuton's useless. And Naruto knows how to destroy Mokuryu so its not a threat.

You've disregarded every advantage Naruto has over Hashirama and claimed he has speed and reaction feats when he doesn't. Sorry, Hashirama does NOT win this.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 1, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami ended the thread. 
Sage Hashirama is tiers ahead of BSM Naruto, and it would take some reaching to state otherwise.

Hashi wins. Mid-diff (at most)


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## Hachibi (Sep 1, 2014)

Hashirama should win extreme difficulty, tho Naruto can win too. His Mokuton is a bad match-up to Jin and Bijuu and he can redirect all the uncharged Bijuudama form Naruto. But Naruto has his chance too with his Flash Shunshin and Continuous/Super Bijuudama.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

Naruto doesnt win fights without help, so how does he beat the god of shinobi w.o help?


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## Trojan (Sep 1, 2014)

> =ARGUS;51616082]@Hussain, the long detailed post that you have provided is the same as Ababeels from narutobase,  are you 2 the same people???


Yes. 



> OT - Hashirama wins this


in lala land maybe.. 



> --He uses his mokutons to catch the TBB and can redirrect them right back at naruto


naruto uses the wind to cut those woods.


> --He uses SS, and gets it to fire off Chojo Kobetsu which compeltely overwhelms his kurama avatar, and can also use his mokujin to grab the TBB and land them right towards naruto thereby preventing SS, and allwoing it to crush naruto,


Naruto uses his speed to avoid all of the SS attacks effortlessly. 



> --He can also use his mokuryu to restrain naruto, alongside mokujin whilst he gets SS to overwhelm him compeltely, and SS can also lift his kurama up like a puppy



They can never even dream of touching Narudo. Naruto simply speedblitze him... 



> --Him being in SM would allow him to react and evade BSM narutos speed without much problems


utter nonsense. Hashirama is not even faster than old Hiruzen, let alone come remotely close to Naruto. Even Base Naruto is faster than him. 


Not to mention even IF (and that will NEVER happen) he was able to do so (again, impossible) the chakra arms and Naruto controlling the natural energy
will still attack him and fodderize him...



> --the fact that naruto still has a limit in his BSM, as well as the fact that hashiramas mokutons can grab and land the TBB right back at him, and the fact that his SS can overwhelm his kurama avatar, and his mokutons can restrain him, means that hashirama is not losing this,


There was not any limit undressed in the manga about that mode. 

As for SS too bad, it's too slow for Naruto. That if Hashirama lived that long to begin with
before Naruto speed blitze him. lol 



saikyou said:


> First of all Sage Mode + 50% perfect Kurama Jinchuuriki >> 100% Kurama in a Susano'o armor. Hashirama is hopelessly outclassed in DC, speed and durability. Shinsuusenju is never gonna land a hit on Naruto unless Hashirama manages to restrain the former with Mokuton, which I don't see happening with the HUGE speed difference. I would love to see how Hashirama is taking a Senpou: Chou Bijuudama.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can't believe the day that I agree with you has come!
I wish I could rep you now.


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## Hachibi (Sep 1, 2014)

I wanted to say that's the first time I completly agree with you Hussain. then I saw your signature and I said: lolnope.

Anyways isn't the lack of knowledge more problematic for Naruto than Hashi since he doesn't know about Mokuryu?


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## Trojan (Sep 1, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> I wanted to say that's the first time I completly agree with you Hussain. then I saw your signature and I said: lolnope.
> 
> Anyways isn't the lack of knowledge more problematic for Naruto than Hashi since he doesn't know about Mokuryu?



- That's why they are "denied" feats. They wouldn't be called like that if people acknowledge them, genius. 

- Or since Hashirama does not know about Naruto's speed he gets blitze and Narudo beheaded him.


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## Hachibi (Sep 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - That's why they are "denied" feats. They wouldn't be called like that if people acknowledge them, *genius*.



So you admitted it, at last 



> - Or since Hashirama does not know about Naruto's speed he gets blitze and Narudo beheaded him.



Naruto doesn't spam Shunshin unless he is Bloodlusted


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## Cognitios (Sep 1, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami posting quality and quite possibly the best post in a Hashirama thread


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## Cognitios (Sep 1, 2014)

Also Hussain, are you really suggesting that because Hiruzen arrived somewhere first that he is faster than the others?
Are you sure that it's not because it's the reverse order that they were hokage?
Because otherwise Hiruzen > Tobirama in speed makes no sense at all.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

Hashirama is not only at a higher level, he has vast experience in fighting the Kyuubi. If Madara could deal with speedsters like Ei and BM Naruto no problem, I don't see why SM Hashirama would have any problems at all with BSM Naruto, since he seemed to have a slight edge over Madara, before Madara was revived.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If you think Sage Hashirama is getting blizted right from the start of the battle which essentially equals a low difficulty match for Naruto then I'm not debating with you lol.


Sage Hashirama doesn't have the speed nor reaction feats to keep up with BSM Naruto though, Likes Boss. He's inferior in both.


> And you and Hussain are ridiculous sometimes. I'm not gonna sit here and spoon feed you everything . I clearly meant Hashirama's hype> anything BSM NARUTO, THE NARUTO IN THIS THREAD has done,


Even though Naruto's saved the entire Alliance several times over before getting Rikudo Senjutsu, defeated Juubi Jin Obito, and held his own against the Ten-Tails? That doesn't match up to what Hashirama's 'hype'? Really?



Cognitios said:


> If it was only me agreeing we wouldn't have other posters like RedChidori, who is pretty neutral in most threads, and especially neutral in this thread, agreeing with them.


Actually things seemed pretty split on who'd win. Rocky, Jagger, Kyu, JuicyG, myself, Saikyou and Hussain's claimed that BSM Naruto may win, while yourself, Shinobi no Kami, ARGUS, KyuubiYondaime, King Itachi, Heavenly Demon, RedChidori and possibly Hachibi claim Hashirama wins.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Rocky still said that Naruto could win while the rest of Hashirama's side acts like Naruto in this state is no challenge at all. Most of Hashirama's arguments (not just here) have been 'He's Hashirama, he wins', ignoring each and every advantage Naruto has.


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## Ruse (Sep 1, 2014)

Can't believe some of the shit I'm reading saying SM Hashi is tiers above BSM Naruto is just as ridiculous as suggesting Naruto could blitz Hashi right off the bat.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Can't believe some of the shit I'm reading saying SM Hashi is tiers above BSM Naruto is just as ridiculous as suggesting Naruto could blitz Hashi right off the bat.


What speed feats does SM Hashirama have to prevent a blitz though, Heavenly Demon? Naruto far outclasses him in speed in just Biju Mode.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 1, 2014)

Naruto never really speedblitz anyone.

He's not blitzing SM Hashirama whose in a level above him.

He didn't blitz Madara did he?


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## Ruse (Sep 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What speed feats does SM Hashirama have to prevent a blitz though, Heavenly Demon? Naruto far outclasses him in speed in just Biju Mode.



He's not blitzing someone like Hashi who's in the same tier as him, has way more battle experience and should have increased reflexes due to his own proficency in SM to prevent getting blitzed right from the start. 

Its fine if you think Naruto wins like I said before I think this would be close but a blitz? The bias is too strong.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 1, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> He's not blitzing someone like Hashi who's in the same tier as him, has way more battle experience and should have increased reflexes due to his own proficency in SM to prevent getting blitzed right from the start.
> 
> Its fine if you think Naruto wins like I said before I think this would be close but a blitz? The bias is too strong.


What are Hashirama's speed and reflex feats, Heavenly Demon? Biju Mode Naruto is fact enough to deflect _five_ Bijudamas by just _moving past them_ and sending them flying into to the next zip code. BSM Naruto is fast enough to react to Juubito, corner him, and even react to his movements. Need I remind you that Juubito himself blitzed Hashirama in his first form.


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## Csdabest (Sep 2, 2014)

Hashirama Stomps. Hashirama was handeling both Susano-o and 100% kyuubi. Naruto's strongest attack Hashirama Can literally catch and shove it right back into Naruto's face. Not to mention he can just absorb all of Naruto's chakras through the tree branches. I still see Hashirama Defeating Naruto with Extreme High Difficulty. People need to realize that Naruto maxed out at Minato level speed. Madara shuts down Naruto repeatedly yet Hashirama can beat down Madara on multiple levels.


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## Ruse (Sep 2, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What are Hashirama's speed and reflex feats, Heavenly Demon? Biju Mode Naruto is fact enough to deflect _five_ Bijudamas by just _moving past them_ and sending them flying into to the next zip code. BSM Naruto is fast enough to react to Juubito, corner him, and even react to his movements. Need I remind you that Juubito himself blitzed Hashirama in his first form.



I'lll reply to you a little later SuperSayian I'm going to bed (plus I'm on phone right now trying to post properly is a struggle)


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## Trojan (Sep 2, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Hashirama Stomps. Hashirama was handeling both Susano-o and 100% kyuubi. Naruto's strongest attack Hashirama Can literally catch and shove it right back into Naruto's face. Not to mention he can just absorb all of Naruto's chakras through the tree branches. I still see Hashirama Defeating Naruto with Extreme High Difficulty. People need to realize that Naruto maxed out at Minato level speed. Madara shuts down Naruto repeatedly yet Hashirama can beat down Madara on multiple levels.



Naruto fought a superior madara than the one Hashi fought. Not to mention Hashi lost to edo
madara as well. 

and I'm not sure how is defeating someone with "Extreme High Difficulty" consider as "stomps"


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 2, 2014)

I'm not sure who'd win between the two, but Hashirama isn't just going to smush Naruto with his mokuton and the latter isn't going to speed-blitz the God of Shinobi and kill him with a rasenshuriken, either. That's a really silly opinion to have, given that both feats and portrayal put them at roughly even grounds regardless. One might be stronger than the other, but the gap in power level isn't to the extent that the battle would be anything short of one of the most enduring conflicts the two have ever fought.


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## JuicyG (Sep 2, 2014)

Goose said:


> I'm not sure who'd win between the two, but Hashirama isn't just going to smush Naruto with his mokuton and the latter isn't going to speed-blitz the God of Shinobi and kill him with a rasenshuriken, either. That's a really silly opinion to have, given that both feats and portrayal put them at roughly even grounds regardless. One might be stronger than the other, but the gap in power level isn't to the extent that the battle would be anything short of one of the most enduring conflicts the two have ever fought.




Agreed but we cant settle with a "tie"

It would have been better to use a poll here and just go by majority vote since this battle is very close


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2014)

Naruto turns into a stain on the ground after he recieves the onslaught from Buddha. Unlike Madara, he doesn't have PS as protection or the Bijuudama shurken spam to match those punches.

Hashirama stomps once he uses Buddha. Up to that point it is pretty close.


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## Csdabest (Sep 2, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Naruto fought a superior madara than the one Hashi fought. Not to mention Hashi lost to edo
> madara as well.
> 
> and I'm not sure how is defeating someone with "Extreme High Difficulty" consider as "stomps"



Naruto got stomped By Madara on EVERY Single Level outside of Cripled Madara that got done fighting Gai. Even when Naruto Gained Bijuu Sage Mode. Hashirama still stated that he had more chakra than BSM Naruto. Even naruto tossing BijuuDama Rasen Shurikens would only be the equvivelent of BijuuDamas mixed with Susano-o swords spiraling around.

Even Current Naruto is not that much stronger than BSM Naruto. Its mainly gaining the Sages Senjutsu Chakra for the mini damas and having access to elemental chakra. I put that Naruto over Hashirama because of the access of those elements to combat Mokuton. But Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto still gets beat pretty handily at this level. Because Hashirama has shown and proven to handle catch and redirect Stronger versions of BSM naruto's.

The only reason its stomping and high difficulty is because of both of their insane Durability and stamina that would drag the fight out w/ Regeneration. Though Hashirmaa should show himself superior throughout the duration of the fight. But if Hashirama can absorb and seal Kyuubi Chakra. Then its just mid difficulty due to bad match ups


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## Psp123789 (Sep 2, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Naruto doesnt win fights without help, so how does he beat the god of shinobi w.o help?


That's some seriously shitty logic you got there. 

As for the thread it could go either way. Leaning towards Hashi since he's a natural counter to a jin.


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## Trojan (Sep 2, 2014)

Wow, there is so much wrong in this post, I don't even know how to start.  



> =Csdabest;51624825]Naruto got stomped By Madara on EVERY Single Level outside of Cripled Madara that got done fighting Gai. Even when Naruto Gained Bijuu Sage Mode.



oh please. 
Madara admitted that they are way better than he expected and that's why he failed to capture Narudo. 

and Naruto never fought Madara with BSM. 



> Hashirama still stated that he had more chakra than BSM Naruto.


lol what? When Hashirama made that statement Naruto did not even gain BSM yet.  


> Even naruto tossing BijuuDama Rasen Shurikens would only be the equvivelent of BijuuDamas mixed with Susano-o swords spiraling around.



Which Hashirama's woods can't catch... Good. 



> Even Current Naruto is not that much stronger than BSM Naruto.


*dumbfounded* 


> Its mainly gaining the Sages Senjutsu Chakra for the mini damas and having access to elemental chakra. I put that Naruto over Hashirama because of the access of those elements to combat Mokuton. But Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto still gets beat pretty handily at this level. Because Hashirama has shown and proven to handle catch and redirect Stronger versions of BSM naruto's.




Well, apparently that's not what Kishi thinks... 


> The only reason its stomping and high difficulty is because of both of their insane Durability and stamina that would drag the fight out w/ Regeneration. Though Hashirmaa should show himself superior throughout the duration of the fight. But if Hashirama can absorb and seal Kyuubi Chakra. Then its just mid difficulty due to bad match ups



Hashirama can't even touch Naruto because of the MASSIVE gap in speed. 

btw, what can Hashirama do against Frog Song?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

I didn't even remember Hashirama has insane regeneration and his Mokuton clones, which only EMS could see. That makes things even worst for Naruto.


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## Ruse (Sep 2, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What are Hashirama's speed and reflex feats, Heavenly Demon? Biju Mode Naruto is fact enough to deflect _five_ Bijudamas by just _moving past them_ and sending them flying into to the next zip code. BSM Naruto is fast enough to react to Juubito, corner him, and even react to his movements. Need I remind you that Juubito himself blitzed Hashirama in his first form.



1. Hashirama wasn't in SM when Juubito blitzed him and it was a wood clone, unless I'm mistaken BSM Naruto isn't as fast as Juubito. 

2. Pretty sure Naruto had help from Sasuke/Minato/Tobirama when he cornered Juubito, its not like he did it by himself with pure speed, and he was having trouble tracking Juubito 

3. When did BSM Naruto react to Juubito?

*Spoiler*: __ 







 
Looks like he had trouble reacting here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 2, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> 1. Hashirama wasn't in SM when Juubito blitzed him and it was a wood clone, unless I'm mistaken BSM Naruto isn't as fast as Juubito.


Wood Clone or not, the result would have been the same. Hashirama was never known to be a speedster nor have impressive reflexes.


> 2. Pretty sure Naruto had help from Sasuke/Minato/Tobirama when he cornered Juubito, its not like he did it by himself with pure speed, and he was having trouble tracking Juubito


Naruto tracks Obito's movements and corners him.

Sasuke and Naruto didn't help each other when they were tracking Obito's movements, nor did Minato or Tobirama. Tobirama just teleported both Naruto and Minato into the barrier so they could fight Obito.


> 3. When did BSM Naruto react to Juubito?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Chapter 650, and that there shows that Obito is DETONATING the Rasengan that was about to crush his Gudodama for the first one, and the second one no one would expect Obito to shape his gudodama into giant chakra arms and they were at point blank.

Again, what are Hashirama's feats?


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 2, 2014)

SM Hashirama is still superior


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

The sad part is that the Hashirama that we saw in the war wasn't even 100% since he was in Edo Tensei. Tobirama stated they were brought back at *near* their full power.

Then, the revived Madara told Tobirama that it was a shame that he was now stronger than ever, while they were actually weaker since they were Edo Tensei, and thus stood no chance againts him.

Considering Hashirama was a bit above Edo Madara, and simply being revived boosted him a great deal, I don't even want to imagine what a going all out SM Hashirama is capable of to be honest.

In my opinion, he would have being around revived Madara's level, before he stole Hashirama's SM to add it on top of his powers.

And thats freaking insane considering Madara had added Hashirama's powers on top of his own at that point.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 2, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> SM Hashirama is still superior


And...how? Again his speed, reflexes, durability, and DC are inferior by massive amounts.


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## Ruse (Sep 2, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wood Clone or not, the result would have been the same. Hashirama was never known to be a speedster nor have impressive reflexes.



My point was more towards him not been in SM unless I'm mistaken SM enhances your reflexes? does it not? 

Also Hashi was hailed as the God of Shinobi and Madara even admitted inferiority to him yet I'm supposed to believe he doesn't have impressive reflexes come on man its simple power scaling/common sense 



> Naruto tracks Obito's movements and corners him.



I already linked that page, and how did they corner him? he blocked both of them and then proceeded to send them flying.



> Sasuke and Naruto didn't help each other when they were tracking Obito's movements, nor did Minato or Tobirama. Tobirama just teleported both Naruto and Minato into the barrier so they could fight Obito.



He was still fighting with Minto though so he didn't corner Obtio by himself with pure speed just like later on when he's fighting alongside Sasuke.



> Chapter 650, and that there shows that Obito is DETONATING the Rasengan that was about to crush his Gudodama for the first one, and *the second one no one would expect Obito to shape his gudodama into giant chakra arms and they were at point blank*.



Naruto still failed to react to Juubito though and was sent flying, you're the one that said he was fast enough to react to Juubito


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## JuicyG (Sep 2, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> *The sad part is that the Hashirama that we saw in the war wasn't even 100% since he was in Edo Tensei. *




I was under the impression that being Edo was beneficial sense you basically can spam jutsu


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## Kyu (Sep 2, 2014)

> Even Current Naruto is not that much stronger than BSM Naruto.



What're you on?

RSM Naruto dodged, overpowered, and blitzed the strongest character in the series *on his own*. 

BSM couldn't defeat Juubito by himself.

I'd say there's a pretty large gap between the two.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 2, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> My point was more towards him not been in SM unless I'm mistaken SM enhances your reflexes? does it not?


Sage Mode doesn't always enhance reflexes. It depends on where it is taught. Hashirama never was said to be a speedster or have impressive reflexes, the only thing that was impressive for him was the size of his Mokutons, not his physical abilities.


> Also Hashi was hailed as the God of Shinobi and Madara even admitted inferiority to him yet I'm supposed to believe he doesn't have impressive reflexes come on man its simple power scaling/common sense


And Madara is a speedster who can deflect five Bijudama's by just moving past them? Or is strong enough to physically toss a Biju without any Mokuton or Susano'o helping him?

Hashirama was never said to be impressive at all in terms of physical strength or speed or reflexes. Hell according to Madara, Tobirama was faster than Hashirama (being the fastest shinobi of his era). Just because your the 'God of Shinobi' doesn't mean you're best in every area.




> I already linked that page, and how did they corner him? he blocked both of them and then proceeded to send them flying.


He was zipping around and they slowly picked up his movements before attacking him at both sides, forcing him to block. That's cornering. 




> He was still fighting with Minto though so he didn't corner Obtio by himself with pure speed just like later on when he's fighting alongside Sasuke.


Both Naruto and Sasuke were slowly able to track his movements, either with Naruto's sensing or Sasuke's Choku Tomoe's advancement. Obito was on the defensive in both cases and both Sasuke and Minato were practically relying on Naruto.




> Naruto still failed to react to Juubito though and was sent flying, you're the one that said he was fast enough to react to Juubito


React to Juubito's _physical movement._ Not Gudodama shaping and enhancement. There's a difference.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 2, 2014)

BSM naruto is fast but he is not blitzing at 100 meters with one shunshin. Seeing as hashirama has time to set i am leaning towards him here. Sage Art: Great Deity Gates pins naruto in his avatar down and force him to leave/deactivate it to put up a fight. Sadly naruto doesn't really have a chance outside of his avatar especially when you factor in the kyuubi/susanoo fusion one-shotting buddha+a troublesome wood dragon/wood human combo.

This is a bad match up hashirama got too many super effective tools.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I was under the impression that being Edo was beneficial sense you basically can spam jutsu



It's not. Hashirama wasn't at full power. Hence, he coudn't even summon the Budda. He was fighting Madara's PS with just his Wood dragon, and the sad part is, he was winning. He had Madara pinned down, before Madara was revived.

Being revived boosted Madara's powers a lot, to the point that he was stronger alive and without the Rinnegan, than he was dead, with what the Bijuus called "the fake Rinnegan". 

If being revived boosted Madara so much  (I would say atleast 30%), I can only imagine that being revived would boost Hashirama's powers to the same proportion, as that Madara didn't even have the Rinnegan until later. 

And this also goes with what Madara said later to Tobirama. He stated that the Senju brothers couldn't do anything againts him anymore. Because now he was stronger than ever, but instead, they were dead, and thus weaker than ever, so the gap between them now was like heaven and earth.

The Madara that was an Edo, with the fake Rinnegan as the Bijuus called it, owned BM Naruto and Gai had to save him. Maybe BSM Naruto was at best tied with that Madara, but Hashirama pinned down that Madara without even using the Budda. It's not just about not having the Budda, but how much weaker was Hashirama, that even Spiral Zetsu could use a weaker version, but he couldn't? I mean, the Budda that Hashirama produced in life owned Kyuubi and PS, so even a much smaller one could atleast beat it with difficulty.

And then we have Madara stating that if he hadn't being revived and on top of that the Senju Brothers being made proportionally weaker, they would have beaten him. So I don't get how people say that BSM Naruto could beat SM Hashirama who is just a tier above him, easily.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 2, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> BSM naruto is fast but he is not blitzing at 100 meters with one shunshin. Seeing as hashirama has time to set i am leaning towards him here. Sage Art: Great Deity Gates pins naruto in his avatar down and force him to leave/deactivate it to put up a fight. Sadly naruto doesn't really have a chance outside of his avatar especially when you factor in the kyuubi/susanoo fusion one-shotting buddha+a troublesome wood dragon/wood human combo.
> 
> This is a bad match up hashirama got too many super effective tools.


Naruto blitzed Madara and Obito at a far greater distance when he lost his avatar. Hashirama is NOT hitting him with Myojinmon, the attack is far too slow and Naruto would sense and avoid them. And even in just straight up 'human' form, Naruto can create Rasenshuriken strong enough to sever Juubi tails without Sage Mode enhancement. Naruto can counter Hashirama's Mokuton with his Futon Rasenshuriken and its variants.

And don't bring up Madara's usage of Kurama in the VOTE fight. He couldn't use Kurama's full power, didn't even attempt to use Kurama's other abilities, and it was his own stupidity and ignorance of Kurama's powers that made him lose there.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 2, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto blitzed Madara and Obito at a far greater distance when he lost his avatar.


He intercepted their attacks but did not straight up wtf blitz them. You might be overexaggarting that distance a bit homie i mean *far greater than 100 meters*? I'm skeptical of that.



> Hashirama is NOT hitting him with Myojinmon, the attack is far too slow and Naruto would sense and avoid them.


Ya know the god tree is not super fast either and it managed to snag naruto in a trap. SSM12 it's naruto being big and not as mobile in that form that get him caught. 10-15 gates that span across a width big as the juubi and you think naruto in a avatar would just avoid them all?



> And even in just straight up 'human' form, Naruto can create Rasenshuriken strong enough to sever Juubi tails without Sage Mode enhancement. Naruto can counter Hashirama's Mokuton with his Futon Rasenshuriken and its variants.


So while naruto is throwing those with will cut some arms of the buddha(much like madara's PS blade TBB did) what will human naruto do for the other 700 punches smashing him(much like it did PS/kyuubi despite similar resistance)?



> And don't bring up Madara's usage of Kurama in the VOTE fight. He couldn't use Kurama's full power, didn't even attempt to use Kurama's other abilities, and it was his own stupidity and ignorance of Kurama's powers that made him lose there.


The only thing madara did not use is a giant TBB and chakra roars which in that level of fight would just be petty(not the giant TBB just the roar). What does naruto have in his "human form" arsenal that can erase all of the buddha's arms before getting pasted. Because seriously and realistically GDG nulls kurama avatar.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 2, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He intercepted their attacks but did not straight up wtf blitz them. You might be overexaggarting that distance a bit homie i mean *far greater than 100 meters*? I'm skeptical of that.


Both within 100 meters and Naruto did it without them able to react. Not to mention his first use of Biju Mode had him bat away five Bijudama from a greater distance too.



> Ya know the god tree is not super fast either and it managed to snag naruto in a trap. SSM12 it's naruto being big and not as mobile in that form that get him caught. 10-15 gates that span across a width big as the juubi and you think naruto in a avatar would just avoid them all?


Naruto and Minato were point blank and were charging up a Senpo: Cho Bijudama then.

Hell the speed with what it grew was incredibly fast.



> So while naruto is throwing those with will cut some arms of the buddha(much like madara's PS blade TBB did) what will human naruto do for the other 700 punches smashing him(much like it did PS/kyuubi despite similar resistance)?


All Naruto needs to do is fire a Senpo: Cho Bijudama and the Shinsusenju will be annihilated. And guess what, he tanked an attack greater than Choju Kebetsu with superficial damage. And that's just Biju Mode, not Biju Sage Mode which enhances his speed, strength, defense, and durability.



> The only thing madara did not use is a giant TBB and chakra roars which in that level of fight would just be petty(not the giant TBB just the roar). What does naruto have in his "human form" arsenal that can erase all of the buddha's arms before getting pasted. Because seriously and realistically GDG nulls kurama avatar.


Straight Biju Mode can tank a Juubidama laser which is greater in power than Shinsusenju. And given a single Rasenshuriken in Biju Mode _can cut through the fricking Juubi_, I don't think the size of Shinsusenju will be a problem.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 2, 2014)

Saiyanman, you're completely understimating powerscaling.

Madara who got pinned down by Hashirama (who wasn't at full power), managed to handle BM Naruto* without any problems at all* and it was Gai who saved him.

A full powered Hashirama isn't losing to BSM Naruto.

Maybe BSM can make it so Naruto is equal to that Edo Madara (and thats a maybe), but Hashirama still had the upperhand againts that Madara, and alive Hashirama is much stronger than that.

Proof of that was stated by Madara when he stated the Senju bros couldn't do anything to him anymore because being revived made him stronger, while they were weaker than ever in their Edo form. He implied that if they were alive, they would have had a chance, and Madara proceed to again rape Naruto, and speed never mattered here.

So if speed doesn't matter againts Madara, it won't matter againts Hashirama.

It was never shown how Madara dealt with Ei's speed, but he did, and all that time, he was weaker than Hashirama before he was revived, because Hashirama was dead.

An alive Hashirama could have probably defeated an alive Madara without the Rinnegan, something Naruto failed to do againts twice.


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## ueharakk (Sep 2, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Saiyanman, you're completely understimating powerscaling.
> 
> Madara who got pinned down by Hashirama (who wasn't at full power), managed to handle BM Naruto* without any problems at all* and it was Gai who saved him.


Since when did Madara handle BM Naruto?  Naruto blew up mokuryuʻs face, and their fight was left with an undetermined victor since the Juubi appeared and the only reason Naruto didnʻt just fodderize the dragon with any of his nukes was PIS, having no knowledge on it, wanting to protect his friends or a combination of all three.  If anything Narutoʻs exchange with Madara is positive evidence that BSM Naruto might even do better than EMS Madara did against Hashi since Madara stated that mokuryu bound 100% Kurama while under madaraʻs control, yet BM Naruto escapes it.

If the Juubi didnʻt appear, Madara would have had to pull out the next most powerful thing in his arsenal: Mokujin or PS.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> An alive Hashirama could have probably defeated an alive Madara without the Rinnegan, something Naruto failed to do againts twice.


Naruto never used BSM against Madara, ever, and alive rinnegan Madara + Hashiramaʻs cells + Hashiramaʻs SM > alive Hashirama.

Even when edo Madara fought BM Naruto, Naruto didnʻt beat Madara, but at the same time Madara didnʻt beat Naruto.  Thatʻs also while Naruto was preoccupied with protecting his teamates.

As for the thread, featwise it could go either way.  Portrayal has Hashirama the strongest good guy until 8th gated Gai and the rikudouʻs.

Hashi should win.


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## ueharakk (Sep 2, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> BSM naruto fights on the same level as sasukes V3 legged susano.
> 
> BSM naruto fights on this level:
> 
> ...


Except fighting alongside someone =/= fighting at the same level as them especially since that would lead to a logical contradiction since Sasuke and Naruto fight alongside each other after Sasuke uses PS.  

Thus if fighting alongside each other = same level, then Sasukeʻs PS is at the same level as Sasukeʻs V3 susanoo.

Not only that, but Sasukeʻs V3 susanoo was being powered up by Juugoʻs senjutsu chakra and Narutoʻs V1 cloak.  Then Sasukeʻs PS was powered up by Narutoʻs BSM chakra (since sasuke wouldnʻt have been able to touch obito w/o it).

Not only that, but while BSM Naruto was fighting alongside EMS Sasuke, he was simultaneously powering up the entire shinobi alliance with his V1 chakra cloak.  Furthermore, we know BSM Naruto did the vast majority of the work against Juubito when heʻs out there pulling 7 tails worth of bijuu chakra all the while Sasuke can only contribute *this.*

So no, portrayal in no way shape or form puts BSM Naruto at the same level as a giant V3 susanoo unless you want to argue that a giant V3 susanoo > BSM powered Perfect Susanoo.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> feat wise, the kurama avatar will be getting absolutely no action against a mokuton user on hashiramas level.


Why does that assertion follow from your scan?  Naruto had no knowledge on Mokuryuʻs absorbing properties, and had comrades on the battlefield he had to protect.  If not for two of those factors, Naruto fodderizes mokuryu with a nuke just like Madaraʻs 100% Kurama did in canon.

Not only that, but that instance proves Naruto is on Hashiramaʻs level as BM Naruto w/o knowledge and trying to protect his friends was able to eventually destroy and escape mokuryu while Madara explicitly stated his 100% kurama was bound by mokuryu in the past.  Therefore BM Naruto > 100% Kurama being controlled by Madara, and therefore BSM Naruto would be on Hashiramaʻs level since his power gets massively boosted by SM.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> all that is left is BSM naruto in human form. hashirama would have zero difficulty reacting to narutos movements.
> 
> hashirama in base form reacted to the same branches that easily restrained BSM naruto.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> and before somebody brings up some ridiculous argument about the shinju going after naruto because he had the most chakra:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Hashiramaʻs clone stated that the quantity of chakra naruto gave was almost as much as him.  Not only that, but Naruto was using sennin mode while Hashirama wasnʻt when the shinjuu attacked therefore Naruto would have had a much higher chakra quantity and quality than he did while in just BM.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> so if the shinju was going after naruto doggedly for his chakra, it pursued hashirama with an even greater tenacity. naruto got restrained, hashirama dodged them without looking while having a conversation with madara.


Their conversation also showed hashirama either used up too much chakra while fighting madara or didnʻt have anywhere near the amount as BSM Naruto did when we saw how little branches were going after Hashi compared to Naruto.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> in conclusion, hashirama rips narutos kurama avatar away with the mokuryu, then he kills him with any choice of large scale mokuton.


That wouldnʻt even work on BM Naruto w/ manga knowledge and w/o friends on the battlefield.  Without those two factors, Hashiramaʻs mokuryus get fodderized by any of narutoʻs nukes above a giant rasengan.  Even mokujin would get fodderized via chou oodama rasenshurike or bijuudama barrage.

Hashirama is only winning with Shinsuusenjuu and thatʻs because itʻs so big and has so many hands that it can catch bijuudamas and throw them back at naruto, forcing naruto to use only BSM Chou oodama rasenshurikens to combat the statue, which wonʻt be enough to bust it before it busts naruto.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 2, 2014)

Sage Hashirama > EMS Madara + 100% Kyuubi > Sage Naruto + 50% Kyuubi

Hashirama stomps.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 2, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Except fighting alongside someone =/= fighting at the same level as them especially since that would lead to a logical contradiction since Sasuke and Naruto fight alongside each other after Sasuke uses PS.


naruto and sasuke at that point were fusing powers. they werent fighting side by side with their own power. 



> Not only that, but Sasukeʻs V3 susanoo was being powered up by Juugoʻs senjutsu chakra and Narutoʻs V1 cloak.  Then Sasukeʻs PS was powered up by Narutoʻs BSM chakra (since sasuke wouldnʻt have been able to touch obito w/o it).


sasukes V3 susano would have performed the same with or without narutos chakra. it was implied to be a product of sasukes growth, not narutos chakra.


> Not only that, but while BSM Naruto was fighting alongside EMS Sasuke, he was simultaneously powering up the entire shinobi alliance with his V1 chakra cloak.  Furthermore, we know BSM Naruto did the vast majority of the work against Juubito when heʻs out there pulling 7 tails worth of bijuu chakra all the while Sasuke can only contribute *this.*


naruto wasnt pulling out the biju by himself. he was the one who established the connection, but the entire alliance pulled out the biju.
it was like a tug of war and naruto was at the front, but he had thousands of others behind him.
thats wuite the downplay of sasukes role. prior to sasukes help naruto was about to lose the tug of war.



> Why does that assertion follow from your scan?  Naruto had no knowledge on Mokuryuʻs absorbing properties, and had comrades on the battlefield he had to protect.  If not for two of those factors, Naruto fodderizes mokuryu with a nuke just like Madaraʻs 100% Kurama did in canon.


narutos kurama avatar doesnt replicate a feat that a stronger version of itself performed based on your speculation.
the kurama avatar isnt controlled by naruto btw. it is controlled by kurama because it is kurama. when 50% kurama faced the mokuryu, he performed worse than his 100% counterpart. 
in turn, narutos full power is negated 5 seconds into the match. 



> Not only that, but that instance proves Naruto is on Hashiramaʻs level as BM Naruto w/o knowledge and trying to protect his friends was able to eventually destroy and escape mokuryu while Madara explicitly stated his 100% kurama was bound by mokuryu in the past.  Therefore BM Naruto > 100% Kurama being controlled by Madara, and therefore BSM Naruto would be on Hashiramaʻs level since his power gets massively boosted by SM.


kurama had knowledge of the mokuryu and as he is the one in control of the avatar, he performed worse than when controlled by madara in a stronger form. 
your entire argument simply flies out of the window. naruto didnt need knowledge because he isnt in control of the kurama avatar. kurama is and he already faced the mokuryu.





> Hashiramaʻs clone stated that the quantity of chakra naruto gave was almost as much as him.  Not only that, but Naruto was using sennin mode while Hashirama wasnʻt when the shinjuu attacked therefore Naruto would have had a much higher chakra quantity and quality than he did while in just BM.


_"*He* has almost as much chakra as I!"_
but at the end of this, you will be the one claiming that i am reaching, correct? hashirama compared his chakra to narutos.
anything more you say on this will be accepted as a concession. this is too pitiful and there is absolutely no reason for you to lie about this as its obvious what hashirama meant.




> Their conversation also showed hashirama either used up too much chakra while fighting madara or didnʻt have anywhere near the amount as BSM Naruto did when we saw how little branches were going after Hashi compared to Naruto.


there are multiple pages which show shinjus branches going after hashirama. if you want to nitpick, i only see 5 branches in the panel where naruto is restrained and about the same amount of branches in all of the panels where the shinju goes after hashirama.




> That wouldnʻt even work on BM Naruto w/ manga knowledge and w/o friends on the battlefield.  Without those two factors, Hashiramaʻs mokuryus get fodderized by any of narutoʻs nukes above a giant rasengan.  Even mokujin would get fodderized via chou oodama rasenshurike or bijuudama barrage.


what does narutos friends have to do with anything?


> Hashirama is only winning with Shinsuusenjuu and thatʻs because itʻs so big and has so many hands that it can catch bijuudamas and throw them back at naruto, forcing naruto to use only BSM Chou oodama rasenshurikens to combat the statue, which wonʻt be enough to bust it before it busts naruto.


shinsuusenju is overkill on a massive scale. it wouldnt care about any nuke naruto throws and would simply punch through them. raseshuriken isnt a threat to the statue as its weaker than a PS blade. it wouldnt need to catch anything.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 3, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto and sasuke at that point were fusing powers. they werent fighting side by side with their own power.


So what?  Fusing eachʻs powers with each other is a far greater portrayal of equality than merely fighting side by side with each other.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasukes V3 susano would have performed the same with or without narutos chakra. it was implied to be a product of sasukes growth, not narutos chakra.


Based on what?  Is that based on Narutoʻs chakra cloak around juugo? Based on Narutoʻs chakra explicitly stated and shown to massively power up ninjutsu?  Is it based on Narutoʻs cloak disappearing from Sasuke and Juugo after both impacted the ground? Is it based on Sasukeʻs Susanoo being powered up by Juugoʻs senjutsu as well?




Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto wasnt pulling out the biju by himself. he was the one who established the connection, but the entire alliance pulled out the biju.
> it was like a tug of war and naruto was at the front, but he had thousands of others behind him.
> thats wuite the downplay of sasukes role. prior to sasukes help naruto was about to lose the tug of war.


No one claimed Naruto pulled out the bijuu by himself.   However, Naruto was obviously doing the most work, shown by him using seven of his tails while Sasuke only contributed a limb to the tug of war.  Not only that, but Naruto was powering up the entire alliance while they helped him pull the bijuu out of Juubito.  

The portrayal argument puts BSM Naruto far beyond EMS Sasuke powered up by BSM Narutoʻs chakra.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> narutos kurama avatar doesnt replicate a feat that a stronger version of itself performed based on your speculation.


Based on what am I making a speculation?  You claiming that 100% Kurama > BM Naruto is pure speculation, not only that but it goes against canon manga statements as Madara explicitly stated that mokuryu bound 100% Kurama while BM Naruto destroyed mokuryu.

BM Naruto destroyed mokuryuʻs face with the mere force of his shunshin, unless you want to claim that BM Narutoʻs shunshin > force of Narutoʻs bijuudama, giant rasengan, FRS etc, then itʻs by no means speculation.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> *the kurama avatar isnt controlled by naruto btw. it is controlled by kurama because it is kurama. *when 50% kurama faced the mokuryu, he performed worse than his 100% counterpart.
> in turn, narutos full power is negated 5 seconds into the match.


Wow, just wow.  What in the world is the bolded based on?  Are you actually telling me that Naruto has no control over his BM form?  That itʻs Kurama controlling it the entire time?  Is the Hachibi controlling Beeʻs transformation at all times as well?

Narutoʻs 100% counterpart had knowledge on mokuryu since it had fought the technique in the past which is why it opted to instantly nuke the dragon rather than wrestle with it and bite it.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> kurama had knowledge of the mokuryu and as he is the one in control of the avatar, he performed worse than when controlled by madara in a stronger form.
> your entire argument simply flies out of the window. naruto didnt need knowledge because he isnt in control of the kurama avatar. kurama is and he already faced the mokuryu.


Once again, where in the world did you get the idea that Kurama is the one who controls the avatar and not Naruto?  Sure Naruto can probably switch with Kurama, and have Kurama fight instead of himself, but what in the world implies that Naruto wasnʻt the one in control the whole time?





Shinobi no Kami said:


> _"*He* has almost as much chakra as I!"_
> but at the end of this, you will be the one claiming that i am reaching, correct? hashirama compared his chakra to narutos.
> anything more you say on this will be accepted as a concession. this is too pitiful and there is absolutely no reason for you to lie about this as its obvious what hashirama meant.


*"Heʻs sharing his chakras with the other shinobi.... thatʻs an impressive volume of chakra comparable to my own!"*

Hashirama was talking about Naruto which is why he refers to "he" instead of "they", and Hashirama was refering to the shared chakra, else he wouldnʻt have been surprised by the volume of chakra since Minato and Naruto always had 50% Kurama in themselves.

And lol, ʻanything more you say on this will be accepted as a concessionʻ.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> there are multiple pages which show shinjus branches going after hashirama. if you want to nitpick, i only see 5 branches in the panel where naruto is restrained and about the same amount of branches in all of the panels where the shinju goes after hashirama.


Itʻs not the amount of branches that are ʻin the same panelʻ itʻs the amount of branches that are going after Naruto and Hashirama.  Thereʻs only like 1 branch going after hashirama in any of the panels while the manga showed *all the branches around naruto were going after him.*



Shinobi no Kami said:


> what does narutos friends have to do with anything?


um, if Gai, bee and Kakashi are on the battlefield, Naruto is not only going to be focused on protecting them as well as fighting, but heʻs also not going to nuke.  Obito even made it clear that people on the battlefield were hindering naruto and heʻs too focused on protecting him rather than fighting.  W/o friends on the battlefield, Naruto nukes.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> shinsuusenju is overkill on a massive scale. it wouldnt care about any nuke naruto throws and would simply punch through them. raseshuriken isnt a threat to the statue as its weaker than a PS blade. it wouldnt need to catch anything.


What in the world is that based on?

Is it based on shinsusenjuuʻs backpack getting destroyed by a smaller explosion than Naruto and Beeʻs combined bijuudama?
Is it based on BSM Naruto being capable of producing bijuudamaas even stronger than that?

What is BSM Chou oodama rasenshuriken not being a threat based on?  What is it being weaker than a PS blade based on?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> So what?  Fusing eachʻs powers with each other is a far greater portrayal of equality than merely fighting side by side with each other.


madaras PS is not equal to 100% kurama.



> Based on what?  Is that based on Narutoʻs chakra cloak around juugo? Based on Narutoʻs chakra explicitly stated and shown to massively power up ninjutsu?  Is it based on Narutoʻs cloak disappearing from Sasuke and Juugo after both impacted the ground? Is it based on Sasukeʻs Susanoo being powered up by Juugoʻs senjutsu as well?


sasukes performance is implied to be because of his growth, not narutos chakra. its just that simple.




> No one claimed Naruto pulled out the bijuu by himself.   However, Naruto was obviously doing the most work, shown by him using seven of his tails while Sasuke only contributed a limb to the tug of war.  Not only that, but Naruto was powering up the entire alliance while they helped him pull the bijuu out of Juubito.


so what if he was powering up the alliance? are you implying that naruto at full strength is as strong as the entire alliance because he gave his chakra to them?
narutos condition wasnt affected at all. kurama molds more chakra for him.




> Based on what am I making a speculation?  You claiming that 100% Kurama > BM Naruto is pure speculation, not only that but it goes against canon manga statements as Madara explicitly stated that mokuryu bound 100% Kurama while BM Naruto destroyed mokuryu.


and 50% kurama wasnt bound by the mokuryu? at this point, im not even sure what you are getting at.
100% kurama was bound, but destroyed the mokuryu.
50% kurama was bound and suppressed.

its just that simple.




> Wow, just wow.  What in the world is the bolded based on?  Are you actually telling me that Naruto has no control over his BM form?  That itʻs Kurama controlling it the entire time?  Is the Hachibi controlling Beeʻs transformation at all times as well?


yes, naruto has zero control over kurama. 
the "kurama avatar" is kurama himself. 

im not sure if you know this, but during biju mode, the biju itself leaves the hosts body.

*Spoiler*: __ 



_Naruto:　! 
Naruto in his mind: Oh, yes. If I cancel this Kulama mode...!!
Maddy: no use. 
Once it seizes you It won't release you.
Naruto: no go! 
Naruto in his mind:*Kulama ain't returning inside of me...!!*
Naruto: !?_






> Narutoʻs 100% counterpart had knowledge on mokuryu since it had fought the technique in the past which is why it opted to instantly nuke the dragon rather than wrestle with it and bite it.


when did kurama face the mokuryu before VOTE?



> Once again, where in the world did you get the idea that Kurama is the one who controls the avatar and not Naruto?  Sure Naruto can probably switch with Kurama, and have Kurama fight instead of himself, but what in the world implies that Naruto wasnʻt the one in control the whole time?


because the avatar itself is kurama. biju mode is when the biju leaves the body of the host. the only thing that naruto does in kurama mode is float in kuramas head and cast jutsu.





> *"Heʻs sharing his chakras with the other shinobi.... thatʻs an impressive volume of chakra comparable to my own!"*


this is nice and all, but what i posted was the VIZ trans.


> Hashirama was talking about Naruto which is why he refers to "he" instead of "they", and Hashirama was refering to the shared chakra, else he wouldnʻt have been surprised by the volume of chakra since Minato and Naruto always had 50% Kurama in themselves.


its nice that you are trying to make excuses and all, but the statement of hashiramas clone is rather clear cut.

he says that naruto has almost as much chakra as he does while he is connected to the other half of kurama. thats just the reality of it.




> Itʻs not the amount of branches that are ʻin the same panelʻ itʻs the amount of branches that are going after Naruto and Hashirama.  Thereʻs only like 1 branch going after hashirama in any of the panels while the manga showed *all the branches around naruto were going after him.*


thats nice. only 1 branch actually has a hold on naruto, so im guessing thats all it took. the other branches just joined in after he was caught.
the difference between naruto and hashirama is that hashirama actually dodged them and rather effortlessly at that.



> *um, if Gai, bee and Kakashi are on the battlefield, Naruto is not only going to be focused on protecting them as well as fighting, but heʻs also not going to nuke.*  Obito even made it clear that people on the battlefield were hindering naruto and heʻs too focused on protecting him rather than fighting.  W/o friends on the battlefield, Naruto nukes.



and in that panel, naruto was the one being protected in order to pull off his attack. now can we please cut this bullshit out?




> What in the world is that based on?
> 
> Is it based on shinsusenjuuʻs backpack getting destroyed by a smaller explosion than Naruto and Beeʻs combined bijuudama?
> Is it based on BSM Naruto being capable of producing bijuudamaas even stronger than that?


you cant prove any of this.


> What is BSM Chou oodama rasenshuriken not being a threat based on?  What is it being weaker than a PS blade based on?


what did a chou oodama RS destroy? im already positive that it didnt destroy a mountain range without even touching the actual mountains.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 3, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> madaras PS is not equal to 100% kurama.


Based on what?

Oh, and if I give you an example of 2 people fighting alongside each other who arenʻt equals, does that mean that you will disregard your argument about V3 susanoo = BSM Narutoʻs avatar?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasukes performance is implied to be because of his growth, not narutos chakra. its just that simple.


Well thatʻs just an assertion backed up by zero manga evidence, logic or arguments other than ʻitʻs as simple as thatʻ.  While on the otherhand we have explicit statements about how the V1 chakra cloak massively powers up ninjutsu, we have sasuke shown in his susanoo powered up by the cloak, and we have the cloak disappearing after sasuke takes a hit.  So nope, Sasuke and his susanoo were massively powered up by Narutoʻs cloak.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> so what if he was powering up the alliance? are you implying that naruto at full strength is as strong as the entire alliance because he gave his chakra to them?
> narutos condition wasnt affected at all. kurama molds more chakra for him.


When did I say Narutoʻs full strengtth is as strong as the alliance?  Why does narutoʻs condition even matter?  We are talking about PORTRAYAL, and by PORTRAYAL Naruto was not only fighting alongside Sasuke, but he was massively powering up and protecting the entire shinobi alliance which thrashes any kind of equality argument you might want to generate.  





Shinobi no Kami said:


> and 50% kurama wasnt bound by the mokuryu? at this point, im not even sure what you are getting at.
> 100% kurama was bound, but destroyed the mokuryu.
> 50% kurama was bound and suppressed.


50% Kurama wasnʻt bound by mokuryu since 50% kurama never fought mokuryu.  BM Naruto did, and he defeated mokuryu.  

100% Kurama was never bound by mokuryu at VoTe, it destroyed it before mokuryu could do anything, therefore Madara was talking about a past battle he had with hashirama where he used kurama, and in that battle kurama was defeated by mokuryu since being bound is defeat for it since it canʻt revert to a human form and break out of its hold unlike naruto.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> its just that simple.


Yep, youʻve simply conceded the point,





Shinobi no Kami said:


> yes, naruto has zero control over kurama.
> the "kurama avatar" is kurama himself.
> 
> im not sure if you know this, but during biju mode, the biju itself leaves the hosts body.
> ...


Right, because Kurama is clearly outside of Naruto in the bottom left scan.
because naruto didnʻt use a chakra roar via the kurama avatar, he just has his hand up for no reason
*because Kurama is the one whoʻs using bijuudama for the first time and doesnʻt know the chakra ratio*
because Kurama isnʻt behind naruto in his seal while Naruto is using BM.
There are tons of more examples, Naruto is clearly the one who controls the BM avatar.  Kurama can also control it, just like kurama can also switch with naruto and control Narutoʻs body.

BM isnʻt even kuramaʻs body, itʻs kurama and narutoʻs chakra melded together.  



Shinobi no Kami said:


> when did kurama face the mokuryu before VOTE?


in one of madara and hashiramaʻs many battles prior to VoTe considering Kurama clearly was not bound during the events we saw at VoTe.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> because the avatar itself is kurama. biju mode is when the biju leaves the body of the host. the only thing that naruto does in kurama mode is float in kuramas head and cast jutsu.


Read the damn manga.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is nice and all, but what i posted was the VIZ trans.
> 
> its nice that you are trying to make excuses and all, but the statement of hashiramas clone is rather clear cut.
> 
> he says that naruto has almost as much chakra as he does while he is connected to the other half of kurama. thats just the reality of it.


show me the ENTIRE statement in the VIZ translation, not just a small snipet.  And ʻthe statement of hashiramaʻs clone is rather clear cutʻ is in no way shape or form an argument, itʻs just an assertion and therefore is worthless.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> thats nice. only 1 branch actually has a hold on naruto, so im guessing thats all it took. the other branches just joined in after he was caught.
> 
> the difference between naruto and hashirama is that hashirama actually dodged them and rather effortlessly at that.


For the second time, it doesnʻt matter how many branches held naruto, the thing that matters is how many branches were going after naruto.  And the number that went after naruto  were far greater than the number of branches going after hashirama.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> and in that panel, naruto was the one being protected in order to pull off his attack. now can we please cut this bullshit out?


naruto fired the attack UP AND AWAY from the battlefield, and even if that attack had hit obito, it would not have detonated until Obito was hundreds of kilometers away.  This is further proven by the fact that naruto didnʻt even want to kill Obito.

On the otherhand, if he had fired a nuke at mokuryu, it would have exploded killing Gai, kakashi and probably damaging bee.  So nope.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> you cant prove any of this.


Prove as in show you that my arguments are 100% true and completely unfalsifiable?  Obviously not, but thatʻs not relevant since you canʻt prove ANYTHING thatʻs not explicitly stated with 100% certainty in this manga, and even then you can still contest the truth of the statements.  

However, the weight of the evidence is overwelmingly on the side that says Shinsuusenjuuʻs backpack gets destroyed by that bijuudama for a couple of reasons:
1) Size of explosion is far larger than shinsuusenjuu considering it created *this crater*.  That  scan also shows itʻs far larger than multiple mountain ranges as you can see them on the sides of the crater.
2) Size of bijuudama is far larger than the combined mass of bijuudamas madara fired at shinsuusenjuu 

Now what is your argument for why BSM super bijuudamaʻs explosion isnʻt even a threat to Shinsuusenjuu?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> what did a chou oodama RS destroy? im already positive that it didnt destroy a mountain range without even touching the actual mountains.


Since when is slicing the tops off a mountain range = destroying a mountain range?  The mountains are all still there, they are just a bit shorter.

A BM FRS cut through the juubiʻs tails that withstood bijuudama as well as many other giant slicing attacks.
A SM FRS blew up half of the the crater the size of a mountain range.

BSM Chou oodama FRS is hundreds of times larger than a SM FRS, and much more powerful than a BM Chou oodama FRS, and far more powerful than a normal bijuudama.  A PS slash is only = to a normal bijuudama.  BSM Chou oodama FRS >> PS slash = normal bijuudama.

Now whatʻs your argument for a PS slash being > BSM Chou oodama FRS?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Based on what?


based on PS having better feats.


> Oh, and if I give you an example of 2 people fighting alongside each other who arenʻt equals, does that mean that you will disregard your argument about V3 susanoo = BSM Narutoʻs avatar?


naruto and sasuke are a specific set of paralleled characters. it doesnt apply to every character that fight together, otherwise part 1 sasuke and part 1 naruto would be equal to kakashi.



> Well thatʻs just an assertion backed up by zero manga evidence, logic or arguments other than ʻitʻs as simple as thatʻ.  While on the otherhand we have explicit statements about how the V1 chakra cloak massively powers up ninjutsu, we have sasuke shown in his susanoo powered up by the cloak, and we have the cloak disappearing after sasuke takes a hit.  So nope, Sasuke and his susanoo were massively powered up by Narutoʻs cloak.


babble as much as you want, but sasuke is capable of using the same susano without narutos chakra.





> When did I say Narutoʻs full strengtth is as strong as the alliance?  Why does narutoʻs condition even matter?  We are talking about PORTRAYAL, and by PORTRAYAL Naruto was not only fighting alongside Sasuke, but he was massively powering up and protecting the entire shinobi alliance which thrashes any kind of equality argument you might want to generate.


the alliance isnt part of his fighting power, so that is largely irrelevant.





> 50% Kurama wasnʻt bound by mokuryu since 50% kurama never fought mokuryu.  BM Naruto did, and he defeated mokuryu.


the kurama avatar is kuramas body, so yes 50% kurama did fight the mokuryu. this is merely arguing semantics though. 
this doesnt have any bearing to anything.



> 100% Kurama was never bound by mokuryu at VoTe, it destroyed it before mokuryu could do anything, therefore Madara was talking about a past battle he had with hashirama where he used kurama, and in that battle kurama was defeated by mokuryu since being bound is defeat for it since it canʻt revert to a human form and break out of its hold unlike naruto.


the dragon wrapped around kurama restricting its movement, hence it was bound. kuramas sheer size and superior strength to its 50% version was what allowed it to not be taken down and fire off a bijudama.




> Right, because Kurama is clearly outside of Naruto in the bottom left scan.


thats just kurama telepathically talking to naruto.



> because naruto didnʻt use a chakra roar via the kurama avatar, he just has his hand up for no reason


the roar is kuramas doing. narutos hand being up is simply for dramatic effect to make his new form look good.


> *because Kurama is the one whoʻs using bijuudama for the first time and doesnʻt know the chakra ratio*


i said that naruto does indeed use jutsu from inside kuramas head. he already generates mini tbb in his chakra cloak, so he can use the standard bijudama using kuramas body as a medium.
the movements of the avatar itself has nothing to do with naruto.



> because Kurama isnʻt behind naruto in his seal while Naruto is using BM.


that isnt kurama mode.



> BM isnʻt even kuramaʻs body, itʻs kurama and narutoʻs chakra melded together.


you need to be specific. BM is not kuramas body. that is just a chakra cloak.

kurama mode is kuramas body.




> in one of madara and hashiramaʻs many battles prior to VoTe considering Kurama clearly was not bound during the events we saw at VoTe.


the dragon wrapped around kurama, which is it being bound. just because suppression didnt happen doesnt mean that kurama wasnt bound.






> show me the ENTIRE statement in the VIZ translation, not just a small snipet.  And ʻthe statement of hashiramaʻs clone is rather clear cutʻ is in no way shape or form an argument, itʻs just an assertion and therefore is worthless.





> For the second time, it doesnʻt matter how many branches held naruto, the thing that matters is how many branches were going after naruto.  And the number that went after naruto  were far greater than the number of branches going after hashirama.


this is worth even less than you claim that my arguments are worth.
all you said is that more branches went after naruto while i directly showed panel that shows the same amount of branches went after hashirama.



> naruto fired the attack UP AND AWAY from the battlefield, and even if that attack had hit obito, it would not have detonated until Obito was hundreds of kilometers away.  This is further proven by the fact that naruto didnʻt even want to kill Obito.


naruto fired the attack at obito so he wouldnt be able to return when narutos clone was in the other dimension. 
naruto fired the bijudama in the air because obito was in the air, not because he was worrying about the safety of others.
the bijudama stayed in one spot, which was on obitos body and it didnt move.
this proves that naruto doesnt have any problem firing bijudama with allies on the battlefield.



> On the otherhand, if he had fired a nuke at mokuryu, it would have exploded killing Gai, kakashi and probably damaging bee.  So nope.


excuses, unsupported, disproven excuses at that.




> However, the weight of the evidence is overwelmingly on the side that says Shinsuusenjuuʻs backpack gets destroyed by that bijuudama for a couple of reasons:
> 1) Size of explosion is far larger than shinsuusenjuu considering it created *this crater*.  That  scan also shows itʻs far larger than multiple mountain ranges as you can see them on the sides of the crater.
> 2) Size of bijuudama is far larger than the combined mass of bijuudamas madara fired at shinsuusenjuu
> 
> Now what is your argument for why BSM super bijuudamaʻs explosion isnʻt even a threat to Shinsuusenjuu?


the only visible damage on shinsuusenju were from the PS blades. the bijudamas had little to do with it.



> A BM FRS cut through the juubiʻs tails that withstood bijuudama as well as many other giant slicing attacks.


that was the bird.


> A SM FRS blew up half of the the crater the size of a mountain range.


it kicked up half a CT crater worth of debris but its explosion did not blow up half the crater. it was the standard frs explosion.


> BSM Chou oodama FRS is hundreds of times larger than a SM FRS, and much more powerful than a BM Chou oodama FRS, and far more powerful than a normal bijuudama.  A PS slash is only = to a normal bijuudama.  BSM Chou oodama FRS >> PS slash = normal bijuudama.
> 
> Now whatʻs your argument for a PS slash being > BSM Chou oodama FRS?


the basis of your argument for frs>PS slash is wrong, so i dont really need to say anything. 

PS slices mountain ranges apart and frs hasnt done anything close to that magnitude.


----------



## Jagger (Sep 3, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Naruto doesnt win fights without help, so how does he beat the god of shinobi w.o help?


Terrible argument. 2/10. GFo troll somewhere else.

The majority of Naruto's opponents are always a tier or two above him, thus, the reason he needs back-up in certain situations. SM Naruto during the Pain arc wasn't stronger than Pain, BSM Naruto by himself wasn't stronger than Juubito, God-Mode Naruto by himself couldn't have defeated and sealed Kaguya.

That's why he always needs help. Even then, he's always outshining his teammates most of time, for example, during the fight against Kaguya.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 3, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> based on PS having better feats.
> 
> naruto and sasuke are a specific set of paralleled characters. it doesnt apply to every character that fight together, otherwise part 1 sasuke and part 1 naruto would be equal to kakashi.


Oh so we are arguing feats now?  Well, then by feats, BSM Naruto >>> EMS Sasukeʻs PS > EMS Sasukeʻs V3 susanoo.

Naruto and Sasuke being parallel characters supports my argument that them fusing their powers = equality, and them using their max powers = equality at the very least. 



Shinobi no Kami said:


> babble as much as you want, but sasuke is capable of using the same susano without narutos chakra.


Sasuke is capable of using the same size susanoo without Narutoʻs chakra, however his susanoo isnʻt going to be as powerful since the kyuubi chakra cloak is explicitly stated to power up ninjutsu.  Not only that, but we know sasuke would have died from obitoʻs ground pound if it wasnʻt for narutoʻs chakra cloak taking so much of the force that it got erased.  Then thereʻs once again the fact that sasukeʻs susanoo is powered up by juugoʻs senjutsu.

Considering this is the third time youʻve addressed this argument with a simple assertion backed by no arguments while ignoring all of my own, itʻs a concession on your part until you actually can generate counterarguments and an argument for your own.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> the alliance isnt part of his fighting power, so that is largely irrelevant.


Doesnʻt matter if the alliance isnʻt part of narutoʻs fighting power since this is a PORTRAYAL ARGUMENT.  If you want to do a feat-wise argument let me know.





Shinobi no Kami said:


> the kurama avatar is kuramas body, so yes 50% kurama did fight the mokuryu. this is merely arguing semantics though.
> this doesnt have any bearing to anything.


right, because BM Narutoʻs shroud created by the melding of Naruto and Kuramaʻs chakra = 50% Kuramaʻs body.  BM Narutoʻs shroud which can lose legs and easily regain them, sustain damage and easily reform = Kuramaʻs body.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> the dragon wrapped around kurama restricting its movement, hence it was bound. kuramas sheer size and superior strength to its 50% version was what allowed it to not be taken down and fire off a bijudama.


The dragon in no way shape or form restricted 100% Kuramaʻs movements, it went once around Kurama, got grabbed by 100% Kurama and was fodderized by a nuke.  Thatʻs obviously not what Madara was referring to when he stated 100% Kurama was bound by mokuryu in the past.  





Shinobi no Kami said:


> thats just kurama telepathically talking to naruto.


Except kurama is explicitly shown still inside his seal, so nope.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> the roar is kuramas doing. narutos hand being up is simply for dramatic effect to make his new form look good.


yep, so youʻre literally saying Narutoʻs hand was up for no reason at all.  So nope.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> i said that naruto does indeed use jutsu from inside kuramas head. he already generates mini tbb in his chakra cloak, so he can use the standard bijudama using kuramas body as a medium.
> the movements of the avatar itself has nothing to do with naruto.


Before that point, naruto never generated a TBB, he failed in all of his attempts.  If Kurama controlled the avatar, then Kurama would have been the one using the TBB not naruto since Kurama can use TBBs without a problem, yet itʻs Naruto who has to generate them.  So nope.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> that isnt kurama mode.


The real Naruto I*S USING KURAMA MODE WHILE THATʻS GOING ON.*  Donʻt waste my time.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you need to be specific. BM is not kuramas body. that is just a chakra cloak.


The BM avatar is what Iʻm talking about.

More examples:*
Kurama telling Naruto "nice control" after Naruto threw Kakashi and SM Naruto to the Juubi using the kurama avatar*
*The fact that Naruto is clearly in control of Kuramaʻs partial transformations* which by your logic, Naruto shouldnʻt be since the partial transformations are parts of Kuramaʻs body and therefore are under Kuramaʻs control.
Naruto once again.
the fact that if BSM Naruto wasnʻt in control of the avatar, i*t shouldnʻt matter if he can sense Juubito or not when the avatar is the one attacking juubito**
BSM Naruto again visually controlling the avatar via his bodily movements*
Then thereʻs the fact that Bee is in control of his bijuu mode transformations.

Finally, the fact that the avatar always does what Naruto wants it to do is conclusive proof that Naruto controls it. 




Shinobi no Kami said:


> kurama mode is kuramas body.


How does that prove itʻs ONLY Kuramaʻs body?  




Shinobi no Kami said:


> the dragon wrapped around kurama, which is it being bound. just because suppression didnt happen doesnt mean that kurama wasnt bound.


Nope, wrapping once around something and restricting Kuramaʻs movement by a factor of 0 =/= binding Kurama.  





Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is worth even less than you claim that my arguments are worth.
> all you said is that more branches went after naruto while i directly showed panel that shows the same amount of branches went after hashirama.


Completely and utterly false.  The panels you show display at must 2 branches going after hashi.  You then stated that only one branch is shown to be WRAPPED AROUND NARUTO.  However the amount of branches going after naruto are shown to be all the branches in Narutoʻs general vicinity which is far greater than the branches that one by one go after hashi.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto fired the attack at obito so he wouldnt be able to return when narutos clone was in the other dimension.
> naruto fired the bijudama in the air because obito was in the air, not because he was worrying about the safety of others.
> the bijudama stayed in one spot, which was on obitos body and it didnt move.
> this proves that naruto doesnt have any problem firing bijudama with allies on the battlefield.


Why in the world do you claim that the bijuudama stayed in one spot?  Nothing in the manga implies that, the bijuudama was fired, Narutoʻs clone hit obito within the timeframe where the dama passes over Obitiʻs real-world position.  The manga never states or implies that the bijuu can fire a bijuudama and make it stop in midair.  

And no, that absolutely does not prove that Naruto doesnʻt have problems firing bijuudamas on the battlefield, it proves that he doesnʻt have problems firing bijuudamas on the battlefield when he fires them into the sky and knows they arenʻt going to blow up anywhere near the battlefield.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> excuses, unsupported, disproven excuses at that.


considering ʻexcuses, unsupported, disproven excuses at thatʻ isnʻt in anyway shape or form a counterargument, youʻve just conceded this point.  Therefore a bijuudama blowing up on mokuryu would kill the kakashi and gai and probably hurt bee.







Shinobi no Kami said:


> the only visible damage on shinsuusenju were from the PS blades. the bijudamas had little to do with it.


Based on absolutely nothing.  Kuramaʻs bijuudama did the vast majority of the damage to shinsuusenjuu, the PS blades were simply put on it to stop shinsuusenjuu from catching them and throwing them back.  




Shinobi no Kami said:


> that was the bird.


Nope, that was BM Narutoʻs FRS.  He was at the tip of the bird, if his rasenshuriken didnʻt cut through the tails, Naruto would not have been at the tip.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> i*t kicked up half a CT crater worth of debris* but its explosion did not blow up half the crater. it was the standard frs explosion.


How does the bolded contradict the unbolded?  Kicking up debri is exactly what explosions do, the extend to which the FRS kicked up debri was sending building-sized boulders kilometers into the sky.  So nope, FRS blew up half the chibaku tensei crater, and it obviously wasnʻt a standard FRS explosion since the normal explosions donʻt have such an enormous AoE neither do they throw building sized rocks into the sky.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> the basis of your argument for frs>PS slash is wrong, so i dont really need to say anything.
> 
> PS slices mountain ranges apart and frs hasnt done anything close to that magnitude.


Well thatʻs a concession on your part since youʻve given zero arguments for why a PS slash > BSM Chou oodama FRS.  

FRS ʻnot doing anything close to that magnitudeʻ is completely and utterly irrelevant since we arenʻt comparing a FRS to a PS slash, we are comparing BSM FRS to a PS slash.  

SM FRS blew up half the chibaku tensei crater.
BM FRS cut through the juubiʻs tails that could withstand beeʻs bijuudama which is = to a PS slash
a BSM FRS is much more potent than a BM FRS, and a BSM COFRS is hundreds of times larger than a BSM FRS.  BSM FRS is on a totally different level than a PS slash or a normal bijuudama.


----------



## joshhookway (Sep 3, 2014)

BSM Naruto only has 50% Kyuubi and he's best attack is Senjutsu Bijuudama.

Madara covered 100% Kyuubi with PS and can use multiple Bijuudama swords. 

VoTE Madara was clearly stronger than BSM Naruto


----------



## Ghost (Sep 3, 2014)

^


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 3, 2014)

Could go either way IMO. Hashi's wood has the advantage of Bjuu supression, and chakra absorption. Although Naruto has a ton of Firepower, Hashi has the means to counter said firepower, and Naruto can't just clone his way out of this situation. Hashi wins extreme diff IMO.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 3, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> BSM Naruto only has 50% Kyuubi and he's best attack is Senjutsu Bijuudama.
> 
> Madara covered 100% Kyuubi with PS and can use multiple Bijuudama swords.
> 
> VoTE Madara was clearly stronger than BSM Naruto


No, he clearly wasn't. VOTE Madara couldn't bring out Kurama's full power. Kurama was lobbing standard power Bijudama the ENTIRE FUCKING FIGHT without any variants. Naruto? Even in BM showed he could make Super Bijudama's on the fly and had full control over Kurama's power.

As Ueherakk explained, BM or BSM Naruto isn't 50% Kurama, its a merged form that is stronger than either alone.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he clearly wasn't. VOTE Madara couldn't bring out Kurama's full power. Kurama was lobbing standard power Bijudama the ENTIRE FUCKING FIGHT without any variants. Naruto? Even in BM showed he could make Super Bijudama's on the fly and had full control over Kurama's power.
> 
> As Ueherakk explained, BM or BSM Naruto isn't 50% Kurama, its a merged form that is stronger than either alone.



BM Naruto was getting *owned* by dead Madara once dead Madara got about half way serious with him.



^ There you see Madara saying he will start getting serious since he realizes Naruto is strong.



^ There you see BM Naruto getting owned by Hashirama's Wood Dragon by Madara.



^ Notice Naruto saying "Shit" and Naruto super worried, the same face he had when Nagato was ripping his soul out. Gai comments how the Dragon is absorbing Naruto's chakra.


Gai sees the predicament Naruto is in and decides to unleash the 7th Gate's Hirudora in order to help Naruto out



And it isnt' after Madara was knocked out by Gai, that Naruto is able to break the Dragon, something the Hachibi replicates by breaking the Mokuton bind he had on, due to Madara's control over the jutsu dissapeared once he got knocked out.

Therefore, Edo Madara was >> BM Naruto, since *without Gai's help, Naruto was done for.*

Now, I know BSM Naruto is stronger than BM Naruto, however, Madara wasn't even serious at that time yet. He hadn't unleashed PS or used Rinnegan powers. Between PS, Rinnegan and Mokuton, I still place him a tiny bit above BSM Naruto if he went all out.

Hashirama was tied with Edo Madara, so* that *Hashirama should be around Naruto's level, so I really wasn't disputing that.




^ However, *Madara admitted that that Hashirama was actually weaker than what he is capable in real life.*

"There is a reason why you brothers can't bring out your* true* strength. Call it coincidence, or call it fate. There's a gulf between our skills now. Furthermore, I'm nurturing a new eye." 

Basically, Madara is admitting that if Hashirama was in his full capabilities, and he hadn't become even stronger now that got even extra powerups (like a true Rinnegan, not the ones the Bijuu called fake, and SM), Hashirama would have being able to stop him most likely.

Therefore, if the real Hashirama is that much stronger that he'd be able to atleast compete with the revived Madara he's far stronger than BSM Naruto, since BSM Naruto was at best around Edo Madara's level, and I'm being genorous.

And as for speed, powerscaling works through that. *Edo Madara had no problem at all catching Naruto with the Wood dragon* or whatever jutsus he used before that. 

Hashirama has clones that he can use and only EMS can tell which is which, so Naruto might just get tricked and catched off guard from behind. Hashirama has the flower jutsu he can use to knock out Naruto. Hashirama also has particular method to deal with SM. And Hashirama is the worst opponent for Kyuubi as he can actually surpress him and has the Wood dragon which can absorb it's chakra. Hashirama also has insane healing at Tsunade's level according to Madara, which is boosted even more by Hashirama's insane chakra levels and SM chakra.

Realistically, the pics I showed with Naruto being owned by the Wood dragon by Madara, is the same as i'd go down with Hashirama, since even if Naruto upgrades himself to BSM mode instead of just BM, SM alive Hashirama is stronger than the Edo Madara that was binding Naruto.

Like countless others have said, Madara's 100% Kyuubi coated in PS was man-handled by Hashirama's Budda. So *Naruto's Sage Mode isn't gonna make up for the other 50% of the Kyuubi, let alone what PS afforded the Kyuubi.* 

Bijuudamas aren't gonna work when Hashirama's Shinsuusenju managed to return it back to the Kyuubi and fuck it up, and his Gojuu Rashoumon can just redirect Bijuudamas like nothing, by Base Hashirama.



^ Hashirama is so dam strong, that Madara thought the only way to protect it from Hashirama's attacks was to protect it with PS. Unfortunately, even that didn't work.




^ Look how easy Hashirama stops a Kyuubi + PS attack in Base.




^ Here is Hashirama redirectng a Bijuudama in Base like it's nothing, and the guy even managed to escape from it just running in Base.




^ Look at the size difference between the full Kyuubi and Hashirama's Shisuunsenju. Hashirama's summon is like 5 times bigger atleast.





^ Hashirama's control over the Kyuubi.

Naruto's best choice is to try to fight without his full Kyuubi mode because that certainly wouldn't work againts Hashirama with a much weaker Kyuubi, but if it wasn't working on Edo Madara, it's not gonna work on an alive SM Hashirama, even if Naruto has sage mode to boost it up.


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## JuicyG (Sep 4, 2014)

^^^^^

Madara is on a whole nother level than what SM Hashi ever meet. Madara was nearly a fusion of the two there. Showing panels of that fight means next to nothing

Naruto would have given the same EMS Madara a great fight that Hashi fought in VOTE


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 4, 2014)

Hashirama's Shisuunsenju was atleast 5 times bigger than Kyuubi + PS fusion. All it did was give it a few blows, break PS, and Hashirama tamed the Kyuubi, after grabbing a Bijuudama like it was nothing and shoving it right to Madara. *Hashirama was made to look alot stronger than Madara in the Vote fight, and that was Madara with Kyuubi.*

Madara as an Edo might have had *some * of Hashirama's powers, and a fake Rinnegan (as the Bijuus called it), but he did not have the Kyuubi. The bijuus mentioned that the fake Rinnegan wasn't anywhere near the true level of a real Rinnegan. Even if the fake Rinnegan managed to match Kyuubi's power, the power Madara had from Hashirama wasn't sufficient to rival Hashirama's own powers, since he didn't have SM anyway. And it was basically proven that they were tied at this point since Madara was bound by Hashirama's jutsu and couldn't escape until he was revived.

It is only after he is revived that he gets power that are comparable to what Hashirama showed in real life. And he stated this himself, admitting that if he hadn't gotten all these extra powerups, plus the Senju brothers hadn't being made weaker in proportion to that because of being in Edo form, that they'd have won.

I believe the fully revived Madara with both Rinnegan would beat Hashirama because he absorbed Senjutsu as well, but it probably wouldn't be by much.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 4, 2014)

-snip- Naruto escaped Mokuton: Mokuryu on his own, and THEN saved Guy and Kakashi from Madara and Obito respectively. It's crystal clear for all to see. And how is 100% Kurama stronger than BSM Naruto? That makes no sense. Hell, he isn't even stronger than regular BM Naruto to begin with! Or even KCM Naruto for that matter! -snip-


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## Veracity (Sep 4, 2014)

Upper scale scaling would put the  Kyuubi no where close to the size of the Buddah Statue. Considering here we have the size of the actual Buddah in comparison to the entire structure:  V2 Susano'o saved Itachi from being obliterated by Kirin.

And a few chapters later we have the Buddahs hands lifting the Kyuubi like a doll: Link removed

Or the fact that in the next panel we have the wood golem almost the size of the Kyuubi: Link removed 
And the Golem fits on the Buddahs head here:  V2 Susano'o saved Itachi from being obliterated by Kirin.
Link removed
So the Kyyubi could vary from 1/5 to 1/50th the size of the Buddah statue due to terrible scaling. Id out a safe bet around 1/30th though.


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## JuicyG (Sep 4, 2014)

but size doesnt always point to the victor


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 4, 2014)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> KyuubiYondaime, you are a filthy liar. Naruto escaped Mokuton: Mokuryu on his own, and THEN saved Guy and Kakashi from Madara and Obito respectively. It's crystal clear for all to see. And how is 100% Kurama stronger than BSM Naruto? That makes no sense. Hell, he isn't even stronger than regular BM Naruto to begin with! Or even KCM Naruto for that matter! Where do you get this bullshit fron?



That just doesn't make any sense.

How is *Naruto* in *Base* without Sage Mode, capable of replacing the other half of Kurama in their fusion?

How does that make even remote sense to you?

It doesn't, so you're the one thats making stuff up.

Yes, Jinchurikis + Bijuu are stronger than just Bijuu alone. But Base Naruto isn't=50% Kurama, so BM Naruto isn't as strong as full powered Kyuubi.

As for Naruto being in Sage Mode, he still isn't anywhere near the level of 50% Kyuubi.

And even if BSM Naruto was as strong as 100% Kyuubi, Hashirama owned the Kyuubi and PS like it was nothing, picking the Kyuubi like a doll and owning it, so Hashirama is not losing to Naruto at all. Hashirama's Shisuunsenju jutsu was like 10 times the size of the Kyuubi and PS, and it didn't even break a sweat beating those two.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 4, 2014)

Shinsusenju's size, if anything, hurts it due to how mobile Naruto is. He can honestly unsummon his Kurama Avatar when it comes out, zip around _behind it_, reform Kurama and then blast away with a Senpo: Cho Bijudama before it can even turn around.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju's size, if anything, hurts it due to how mobile Naruto is. He can honestly unsummon his Kurama Avatar when it comes out, zip around _behind it_, reform Kurama and then blast away with a Senpo: Cho Bijudama before it can even turn around.



You say that as if narutos on top of it already. If naruto is a distance away he's dead and 


this fight has already been done in the BD with naruto having 100% kurama and he still loses


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 4, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> You say that as if narutos on top of it already. If naruto is a distance away he's dead and
> 
> 
> this fight has already been done in the BD with naruto having 100% kurama and he still loses


That isn't BSM Naruto, and not only that BM Naruto is stronger than 100% Kurama due to being able to fully use his power. And seriously, Naruto can't do it? Despite his speed feats?


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## Veracity (Sep 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju's size, if anything, hurts it due to how mobile Naruto is. He can honestly unsummon his Kurama Avatar when it comes out, zip around _behind it_, reform Kurama and then blast away with a Senpo: Cho Bijudama before it can even turn around.



Well to be fair all Hashirama has to do is turn around and he can control all the arms from a different angle. And considering the shape of the Buddah statue and the fact that technically Hashirama himself Individually moves, the arms should be able to move backwards: 
Link removed

And even under the circumstance that Hashirama cannot see over the backpack, he has god like Sage sensing  and Bunshin. And even if Hashirama doesn't have time to control every arm. Even half of those arms have the strength to push a Super BD back. 

Not to mention in the event that Naruto decides to charge a Super BD, Hashirama can casually just drop Sage gates and momentarily immobilize his Bjuii Mode, which is his unique and extremely effective way of canonically stopping BjuiiDama charge.

EDIT: Might I even add that Hashirama canonically said he has the ability to change the trajectory of basically any Bjuii Dama: Link removed

Even if he needed help, we have to consider that
A) JuubiDama>>>>>> BSM BjuuDama 
And 
b) he was trying to save people at point blank distances to the BjuiiDama themselves.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 4, 2014)

Hashi's a better sage and his mokuton counters bijuuness.

He can also drop the fifty sealing pillars on Naruto, and there's not much he can do about that.

It's not that I think BSM Naruto isn't pushing up towards Hashirama's general level, but I don't think he's quite there, and even if he was, it's still a terrible match up for him.


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashi's a better sage and his mokuton counters bijuuness.
> 
> He can also drop the fifty sealing pillars on Naruto, and there's not much he can do about that.
> 
> It's not that I think BSM Naruto isn't pushing up towards Hashirama's general level, but I don't think he's quite there, and even if he was, it's still a terrible match up for him.



How is Hashi a better sage exactly when Naruto outclass him in every area?
Sensing, Taijutsu, durability, power...etc Naruto shits on him in all those. Hashi's base is stronger than
Naruto's base, and that's about it, but Naruto is the better sage...


- Well, too bad they are not nearly as fast as Naruto, how are they going to hit him?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 4, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> The sad part is that the Hashirama that we saw in the war wasn't even 100% since he was in Edo Tensei. Tobirama stated they were brought back at *near* their full power.
> 
> Then, the revived Madara told Tobirama that it was a shame that he was now stronger than ever, while they were actually weaker since they were Edo Tensei, and thus stood no chance againts him.
> 
> ...



It's true.  

Madara added Hashirama's power to his own, and was revived, "beyond his prime." Then Hashirama gets revived in a limited state, and still wins. . . while primarily fighting in base.  If you give him the boost living did to Madara, and then add a SM boost, it ridiculous to the point it doesn't even make sense.


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## Trojan (Sep 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's true.
> 
> Madara added Hashirama's power to his own, and was revived, "beyond his prime." Then Hashirama gets revived in a limited state, and still wins. . . while primarily fighting in base.  If you give him the boost living did to Madara, and then add a SM boost, it ridiculous to the point it doesn't even make sense.



mmm I kinda don't get what does that have to do with SM itself honestly. 

as Hashirama did not really "win" madara was able to destroy those gates easily, but he was just waiting to get revived because that what he wanted. Not to mention that Needed Narudo's help as well with his CFRS to accomplish that...

- Hashirama was not fighting in base, he was fighting with SM.

- When Madara returned to life he at first lost his power actually by losing both os his eyes. 

Nevertheless, it's still does not have to do with the SM actual power rather than the user....

Naruto
1- Can sense even in a country level area
2- showed far stronger physical power
3- Better reaction and much stronger taijutsu
4- much better durability
5- Naruto can use his SM with his clones, but Hashirama can't.

Hashirama did not show any of that. Most if not all of his feats he can accomplish in base except for the Buddha apparently. Nothing else notable really...

actually even with SM, Madara's body was not strong enough to handle Sasuke's sword which was not even powered up via the lightning or something....

 

and Naruto even got much better after that with his BM added to his SM


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## joshhookway (Sep 4, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Madara is on a whole nother level than what SM Hashi ever meet. Madara was nearly a fusion of the two there. Showing panels of that fight means next to nothing
> 
> Naruto would have given the same EMS Madara a great fight that Hashi fought in VOTE



The Madara that fought Naruto wasn't even using Rinnegan powers (limbo, ST, CT) and was stomping Naruto with wood dragon.

I find it funny how people actually think BSM Naruto is stronger than EMS Madara with Kyuubi.

Did you see how PS alone sliced those mountains? When has Naruto showed anything comparable.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 4, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How is Hashi a better sage exactly when Naruto outclass him in every area?
> Sensing, Taijutsu, durability, power...etc Naruto shits on him in all those. Hashi's base is stronger than
> Naruto's base, and that's about it, but Naruto is the better sage...
> 
> ...



Hashirama never indicated a requirement for any sort of charge time to reach a complete sage mode.  He went so far as switching on sage mode mid-jutsu, when it occurred to him he should add more pillars to the Juubi.

Alternatively, you could say Hashirama simply has more chakra, so his instant sage mode has a larger battery than Naruto's, in which case he's still better in that regard.

Both displayed a perfect sage mode otherwise, and a perfect sage mode logically comes with all the perks inherent to it, such as the proportional strength, speed, and jutsu boost, and sensing.  So if Hashirama is better in base, then when multiplied by a perfect sage boost, he should still be better.  Hashirama is also a sensor without sage mode, which should count for something over Naruto's inability to sense until in sage mode.  You know, something+X>X.

Durability isn't something clear cut either.  Hashirama is a full Senju.  Moreover, he has that amplified by sage power.  Naruto does have the cloak, but he traded regen for it.  Meanwhile, Hashirama has senpo-byako regeneration.  Speaking of, I'm not too wildy impressed with the standard kyuubi cloak either.  Naruto commented that Ei's punch could still break him if he didn't block it, and Madara was also able to block Ei's top punch without injury, probably due to Hashi dna.  So Hashirama should, featwise be comparably durable to the base cloak, and so again, giving the equal sage boost to each party, should come out roughly the same.  Better, if you believe being full Hashirama is better than being Madara with a spritz of Hashi.

I don't see why Naruto would be better in taijutsu.  Naruto got casually repelled by Madara's fan, and never really seemed like a threat to him in any modes prior to godmode in taijutsu.  Meanwhile, Hashirama was dueling that same Madara evenly in taijutsu.  Likewise, the fan that Naruto got repelled by when Obito tossed it, or rather, floated it at him, was swept aside by Hashirama when he and Madara were clashing.  I think Madara swinging a fan with power is superior to Obito's toss in terms of strength.

Speed, well, okay, I can see Naruto being faster.  He's sort of speedy, while Hashirama is more of a heavy ninjutsu type.  That said, Hashirama still has top tier speeds even if he's not at the top of that tier, and his reactions are certainly such that I don't see him having a problem keeping pace with anyone.  If you recall, Naruto (with Sai) got blitzed by blind Madara when he came back to life.  Hashirama's body twiches, and we get a mental comment from Hashirama stating that he's unable to counter or move like he wanted to because of the rods.  So there's a clear indicator that Hashirama was trying to react to a situation Naruto couldn't react to, even if we believe Naruto is overall faster.

But you know, it's not like I really payed attention to a lot of the stuff that happened in the later part of the war arc.  It's all kind of crazy and explody.


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## Veracity (Sep 4, 2014)

Hussain said:


> mmm I kinda don't get what does that have to do with SM itself honestly.
> 
> as Hashirama did not really "win" madara was able to destroy those gates easily, but he was just waiting to get revived because that what he wanted. Not to mention that Needed Narudo's help as well with his CFRS to accomplish that...
> 
> ...




?How is Naruto's taijustu ability better ? Base Hashirama has shown to equal EMS Madara's taijustu ability and he outclasses an entire Shinobi division casually, and had kenjustu skills that's matched Killer B's.

Every sensory ability Madara has in Sage mode can be directly applied to Hashirama considering it's his sage mode..... This includes reacting to Juubito blitzing FTG attacks and prolly a lot of insane shit I forgot .

Physical power ? Like how ? Base Madara and Hashirama should be equal considering they always stalemate in taijustu matches and every single time they sword clash, none of them gets the better of the other  showing equal physical strength. Not to mention that technically Hashirama > Madara in physical stats considering they both are devendants of Asura and Indura. And like we all know Hashirama and Naruto get the body while Sasuke and Madara are gifted with the eyes. Which is why Naruto > Sasuke in any physical stat. Base Madara could overpower sage Naruto with speed/strength And Sage Madara was literally tossing Bjuii. So Sage Hashirama > Sage Naruto.

Better durabilty? How? Slicing damage doesn't equal blunt damage. That's why killer bee can survive Bjuiidama but gets shredded by Shiruken and Chidori variants. Feats say that Base Hashirama should equal Base Madara . And Madara was able to tank a V1 Ay punch. Sage Hashirama is far more durable then base Madara and he also has a healing factor.

Sage Hashirama couldn't use sage mode because 
A) he uses Sage chakra on the gates and was focusing his chakra on the barrier. Which is the reason Tobirama was limited to 2 measly clones as a freaking Edo, and Hashirama was limited to less then 15, when base freaking Naruto can make more then that. 
AND 
b) he was weakened as an Edo to begin with. Which is probably why he couldn't use the Buddah.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama never indicated a requirement for any sort of charge time to reach a complete sage mode.  He went so far as switching on sage mode mid-jutsu, when it occurred to him he should add more pillars to the Juubi.


EVERY Sage Mode user has a charge time. Both Naruto AND Hashirama have cut that charge time to a second when they are at full power, Pirate on Wheels. Remember, first half of the War Arc Naruto entered Sage Mode near _instantly._ Hashirama when he first showed off Sage Mode needed a full conversation to enter it, and then when revived only needed a second since he was at full power.


> Alternatively, you could say Hashirama simply has more chakra, so his instant sage mode has a larger battery than Naruto's, in which case he's still better in that regard.


Hashirama has as much chakra as Naruto's distributed V1 Cloaks to the entire Alliance, I think Naruto himself was superior to him in that area.


> Both displayed a perfect sage mode otherwise, and a perfect sage mode logically comes with all the perks inherent to it, such as the proportional strength, speed, and jutsu boost, and sensing.  So if Hashirama is better in base, then when multiplied by a perfect sage boost, he should still be better.  Hashirama is also a sensor without sage mode, which should count for something over Naruto's inability to sense until in sage mode.  You know, something+X>X.


Naruto seemed to have became a sensor without Sage Mode or Kurama Chakra Mode/Biju Mode after achieving the former. He could sense Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama, and Hiruzen coming as well as Sasuke and his group while Sakura healed him, remember? Not only that, does Hashirama have any feats which put him on Naruto's level when it comes to sensing? Naruto can sense negative emotions AND his chakra sense extends over countries, something Hashirama never showed.


> Durability isn't something clear cut either.  Hashirama is a full Senju.  Moreover, he has that amplified by sage power.  Naruto does have the cloak, but he traded regen for it.  Meanwhile, Hashirama has senpo-byako regeneration.  Speaking of, I'm not too wildy impressed with the standard kyuubi cloak either.  Naruto commented that Ei's punch could still break him if he didn't block it, and Madara was also able to block Ei's top punch without injury, probably due to Hashi dna.  So Hashirama should, featwise be comparably durable to the base cloak, and so again, giving the equal sage boost to each party, should come out roughly the same.  Better, if you believe being full Hashirama is better than being Madara with a spritz of Hashi.


In just straight up durability in Sage Mode, Naruto was stomped on by the strongest Biju barring the Juubi and wasn't even damaged. While we saw Hashirama's version of Sage Mode was reduced to a bloody pinball from the weaker Biju With the combination of Biju and Sage Mode, Naruto is now more durable than the version of himself which the Juubi's Bijudama laser, an attack stronger than Shinsusenju, with only superficial damage.


> I don't see why Naruto would be better in taijutsu.  Naruto got casually repelled by Madara's fan, and never really seemed like a threat to him in any modes prior to godmode in taijutsu.  Meanwhile, Hashirama was dueling that same Madara evenly in taijutsu.  Likewise, the fan that Naruto got repelled by when Obito tossed it, or rather, floated it at him, was swept aside by Hashirama when he and Madara were clashing.  I think Madara swinging a fan with power is superior to Obito's toss in terms of strength.


Naruto's _clone_ (not the real Naruto) attacked Madara with a Super Mini Bijudama. He had slowed his descent so he could slam it against Madara's fan so it would detonate. But it didn't, hence why he was caught off guard by the Uchiha Return.

Has Hashirama _ever_ weaponized Natural Energy in Sage Mode? No, he hasn't. Naruto learned an entire style which uses that. Have you completely forgotten about Kawazu Kumite?


> Speed, well, okay, I can see Naruto being faster.  He's sort of speedy, while Hashirama is more of a heavy ninjutsu type.  That said, Hashirama still has top tier speeds even if he's not at the top of that tier, and his reactions are certainly such that I don't see him having a problem keeping pace with anyone.  If you recall, Naruto (with Sai) got blitzed by blind Madara when he came back to life.  Hashirama's body twiches, and we get a mental comment from Hashirama stating that he's unable to counter or move like he wanted to because of the rods.  So there's a clear indicator that Hashirama was trying to react to a situation Naruto couldn't react to, even if we believe Naruto is overall faster.


Naruto isn't just faster, he's on two other tiers compared to that. His reaction speeds are inferior to Naruto too given full power Naruto was able to get used to Obito's movements as a Juubi Jin and attack him while Hashirama was blitzed by Obito's first form. And I wouldn't take Naruto's 'blitz' by Madara too seriously. He was in Sage Mode, true, but he lost a HELL of a lot of sage chakra in the Odama Rasenshuriken. Remember, using up too much Sage Chakra without constant replenishment exhausts Naruto and makes his reactions slower. However, he blocked and was just thrown off his feet.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 5, 2014)

> EVERY Sage Mode user has a charge time. Both Naruto AND Hashirama have cut that charge time to a second when they are at full power, Pirate on Wheels.



You used my full name so I know I'm in trouble.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You used my full name so I know I'm in trouble.


Heh, its just polite to address people by their user name so you don't get confused in long ass posts. No need to worry.


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## Kyu (Sep 5, 2014)

> was stomping Naruto with wood dragon.



Yet Naruto beat _Wood Dragon_ by using _Shunshin no Jutsu_.





> Did you see how PS alone sliced those mountains? When has Naruto showed anything comparable.



Biju 2-7 each annihilated a mountain with a normal sized BD. BM Naruto is far more powerful than the lot of them combined. Hell, he took physical strikes from Juubi(who is >PS) & suffered no damage as a result. 

BSM can hang.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

Standard Bijudama's can VAPORIZE mountains. Not merely cutting them in half like Perfect Susano'o. Madara said Perfect Susano'o's power was comparable to Biju, NOT superior.


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## ARGUS (Sep 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I doubt Mokujin can catch a Senpo empowered Bijudama, *much less the super ones Naruto uses regularly*. After all, they could bust through Gudodama's.


Yeah but SS surely can through its huge hands, it can easily grab any TBB that naruto may form and throw them right back at Naruto, thus pretty much backfiring his offense 
Naruto is also not forming any big enough TBB before getting overwhelmed by SS and restrained by Mokujin and Mokuryu, 
*Mokujin can wrap its arms easily around the TBB and hit them right towards naruto* 
Naruto forming Super TBB without any charge up, is pure fanfic, its not happening



> Naruto took an attack more powerful than Choju Kebetsu in straight Biju Mode without any damage.


*Chojo Kobetsu was damaged by 11 PS-infused TBB and lost many of its arms*, 
yet  it still managed to *destroy Madaras PS,* which has  shown to have comparable durability to the kuraama avatar, 

with SS being able to throw back the TBB, as well as naruto not being quick enough to counter attack Chojo Kobetsu before getting attacked means that he is losing over half of his tails at the very least, not to mention that hashirama can also use his mokuryu to restrain naruto in conjunction with the SS overwhelming him, 

and naruto was prepared to defend against the juubi beam, with  mokuryu and mokutons restraining him, along with SS overwhelmimg him, at parts where his kurama avatar isnt as durable such as the head,  
hashirama can very easily do the job 



> Naruto knows how to make Mokuryu useless by destroying its head. Rasenshuriken or Bijudama takes it out. *Shinsusenju is useless since it can't even touch Naruto in Biju Mode, much less BSM.*


Lol No, SS is not useless at all, 
it can use its hands to throw back any TBB that naruto may fire at it, and pretty much backfires his offense, along with its own DC being able to destroy PS with only one hit,
and also Lol at SS not being able to touch naruto, *it is a humungous statue that even dwarved the mountians*, and only one of its *arms is big enough to lift the FULL kyuubi (which is larger than narutos) up like a puppy *
naruto can destroy mokuryu but that will allow SS more than enough time to overwhelm Naruto and thats all thats needed, 
and seeing how SM mokujin fought on par with PS, naruto is not destroying mokujin that quickly



> Prove. It. Hashirama has ZERO reaction or speed feats compared to Naruto. Naruto, who can _blow five Bijudama away by just moving_ in just Biju Mode is far, far faster than Hashirama. BSM Naruto was able to react to Juubito and corner him. While Hashirama got flat out blitzed.


Upon recieviing Hashiramas SM from the man himself,, *Madara reacted and evaded Tobriamas FTG attack,  which is faster than BSM Narutos shunshin *
hashiramas SM should enable him to do the same, 
Hashirama dooesnt need to be faster than naruto, when his sensing and reflexes would enable him to react to his speed, 

not to mention that naruto wont get to close the distance, when hashirama can overwhelm him, restrain him, backfire his offense,, and wait for him to run out of his BSM/BM and then wreck him



> There was no limit established for BSM. Hashirama's Sage Mode has the five minute limit too since he can't absorb natural energy while moving. And no, he isn't 'catching and redirecting Senpo Bijudama', not to mention Naruto can just use Rasenshurikens (either Cho Odama size or normal) to render Mokuton's useless. And Naruto knows how to destroy Mokuryu so its not a threat.


No Limit established for BSM but hashirama having only a 5 min limit Lol???? what kind of fanfic is that,, 
BSM is no different from BM, in the sense that both of them still use the same kyuubi and the same link that is formed, 
naruto most likely has no more than 12 minute limit of BSM/BM  
and naruto having a limit into using his BM/BSM is a canon MANGA FACT 

I have already addressed why hashirama  can use SS to throw back the TBB, 
Sm powered makes no difference when the TBB can be grabbed or thrown back, and will only make the job easier for hashirama since the TBB would be more potent and damage naruto more,  

and Lol at FRS doing any remote damage whatsover,,  when PS slashes that slice multiple mountians were tanked by base hashriamas mokutons, 



> You've disregarded every advantage Naruto has over Hashirama and claimed he has speed and reaction feats when he doesn't. Sorry, Hashirama does NOT win this.


Lets see what advantages Hashirama has over naruto 
1. He Can use his mokutons and SS to redirect and Backfire narutos attacks
2. He can use his mokutons to restrain narutos power and immobilise him thus allowing him to finish him off 
3. He can use his SS to overwhelm Naruto 
4..He can also wait for Naruto to run out of his limit in BSM/BM and then wreck him 

and now lets see what advantages does naruto have over hashirama 
Oh wait there are none apart from KB who get killed in the crossfire between the kurama avatar and SS, and do nothing but waste his chakra


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2014)

Yeah I forgot to add that Sage Hashirama can react to BSM Naruto fine.

Sage Madara dodged a blindside attack from Tobiramas who's handspeed is actually faster then Juubito himself. So I have no problems believing Hashirama can react to something slower then Juubito.


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## joshhookway (Sep 5, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Yet Naruto beat _Wood Dragon_ by using _Shunshin no Jutsu_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Show where Naruto did anything comparable to this:




It took Naruto/Kurama fused with Sasuke's perfect suanoo to beat Obito.


Guess what? Madara can do it by himself!! with 100% Kyuubi.

and look what happened to him


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2014)

hashirama wins
why are people still on about this. seriously. wood dragon already showed to restrain naruto. shinjuu absolutely murders naruto considering what it did to PS+100%kyuubi. please note how easily kyuubi was restrained. 
naruto will have all his chakra absorbed. the end.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 5, 2014)

> Naruto isn't just faster, he's on two other tiers compared to that. His reaction speeds are inferior to Naruto too given full power Naruto was able to get used to Obito's movements as a Juubi Jin and attack him while Hashirama was blitzed by Obito's first form. And I wouldn't take Naruto's 'blitz' by Madara too seriously. He was in Sage Mode, true, but he lost a HELL of a lot of sage chakra in the Odama Rasenshuriken. Remember, using up too much Sage Chakra without constant replenishment exhausts Naruto and makes his reactions slower. However, he blocked and was just thrown off his feet.



Naruto's reactions on low sage energy looked exactly the same as when he's fresh.  He did everything like he wanted and killed revival pain according to plan.  I've never seen anything to indicate the amount of sage energy you had effects your sage boosts.  You either have enough to sustain sage mode, or you don't have sage mode.

Naruto looks like he blocked as well as Sai, and I wouldn't say he was, "only" thrown off his feet.  He wasn't able to recover at all, and slammed pretty hard into the ground.  That's not the reaction I expect from someone who can go several tiers of speed above Hashirama.

It looks like edo Hashirama would have been able to react as well or better than Sage Naruto did in that situation if not for the rods.  That's keeping in mind that Living Base Hashirama was capable of matching living Madara's speed.  The living Madara with eyeballs.  The eyeballs that give you precognition.  Whilst also fighting the Kyuubi.  Even if BSM Naruto got a 2 tier boost over SM Naruto, and by extension Edo Hashirama, I just don't see Hashirama's sage mode plus the boost from being alive wouldn't at least get him in the ballpark.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 5, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> That just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> How is *Naruto* in *Base* without Sage Mode, capable of replacing the other half of Kurama in their fusion?
> 
> ...



SM Naruto kicked Kurama's ass. Read the fucking Manga.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Yeah but SS surely can through its huge hands, it can easily grab any TBB that naruto may form and throw them right back at Naruto, thus pretty much backfiring his offense
> Naruto is also not forming any big enough TBB before getting overwhelmed by SS and restrained by Mokujin and Mokuryu,
> *Mokujin can wrap its arms easily around the TBB and hit them right towards naruto*
> Naruto forming Super TBB without any charge up, is pure fanfic, its not happening


Naruto's very first usage of Bijudama was a Super Bijudama. And he did it on the fly. Hell its his standard form of attack.

And why not use, I don't..._RASENSHURIKEN_ against Mokujin? Mokuryu is dealt with by just his shunshin anyway.



> *Chojo Kobetsu was damaged by 11 PS-infused TBB and lost many of its arms*,
> yet  it still managed to *destroy Madaras PS,* which has  shown to have comparable durability to the kuraama avatar,


How is that 'comparable durability' if Naruto took a stronger attack than Choju Kobetsu with superficial damage? That's just false.


> with SS being able to throw back the TBB, as well as naruto not being quick enough to counter attack Chojo Kobetsu before getting attacked means that he is losing over half of his tails at the very least, not to mention that hashirama can also use his mokuryu to restrain naruto in conjunction with the SS overwhelming him,


Naruto not being quick enough to avoid Choju Kebetsu? Are you serious? He can move fast enough to deflect five Bijudama without Sage Mode enhancement, he's more than fast enough to get out of the way of that barrage.


> and naruto was prepared to defend against the juubi beam, with  mokuryu and mokutons restraining him, along with SS overwhelmimg him, at parts where his kurama avatar isnt as durable such as the head,


Naruto's dealt with Mokuryu in canon Argus. Its not a threat. Other mokuton's are destroyed by chakra roars and Futons that Naruto uses. Shinsusenju will absolutely not overwhelm him.


> hashirama can very easily do the job


No he fucking can't and you know it. Hashirama, even if he wins, will have extreme difficulty against Naruto due to Naruto's counters to Mokuton (Biju tossing roars, Futon: Rasenshuriken and its variants, hand held Bijudama's, etc.)



> Lol No, SS is not useless at all,
> it can use its hands to throw back any TBB that naruto may fire at it, and pretty much backfires his offense, along with its own DC being able to destroy PS with only one hit,


Naruto's DC and defense is greater than the barrage it uses. 'Any Bijudama' is a fallacy. Naruto was instantly able to use Super Bijudama in his FIRST usage of the technique.


> and also Lol at SS not being able to touch naruto, *it is a humungous statue that even dwarved the mountians*, and only one of its *arms is big enough to lift the FULL kyuubi (which is larger than narutos) up like a puppy *
> naruto can destroy mokuryu but that will allow SS more than enough time to overwhelm Naruto and thats all thats needed,


Its sheer size makes it *incredibly* slow. You do know that's a trade off right? For Shinsusenju's offense, it sacrifices its speed. Madara could have probably defeated it if he didn't take it _head on_, instead aimed to attack it from behind.


> and seeing how SM mokujin fought on par with PS, naruto is not destroying mokujin that quickly


Biju Mode itself is stronger than Perfect Susano'o by leaps and bounds so 'Mokujin equaling PS' means shit. Naruto has several means of fighting and destroying both it and Shinsusenju.



> Upon recieviing Hashiramas SM from the man himself,, *Madara reacted and evaded Tobriamas FTG attack,  which is faster than BSM Narutos shunshin *
> hashiramas SM should enable him to do the same,
> Hashirama dooesnt need to be faster than naruto, when his sensing and reflexes would enable him to react to his speed,


Hashirama does NOT get Madara's feats. They are Madara's, not Hashirama's. And anyway, Madara only sensed when Tobirama appeared _then_ attacked, he didn't sense the teleportation himself. Hashirama has no reaction or speed feats that put him on the same tier and you know it.

Hashirama got blitzed by Juubito while Naruto could react and counter him in BSM.


> not to mention that naruto wont get to close the distance, when hashirama can overwhelm him, restrain him, backfire his offense,, and wait for him to run out of his BSM/BM and then wreck him


100 meters? Naruto can easily cross the distance considering his Bijudama Slaps. Other Mokuton? Shredded by Rasengan variants.



> No Limit established for BSM but hashirama having only a 5 min limit Lol???? what kind of fanfic is that,,
> BSM is no different from BM, in the sense that both of them still use the same kyuubi and the same link that is formed,
> naruto most likely has no more than 12 minute limit of BSM/BM
> and naruto having a limit into using his BM/BSM is a canon MANGA FACT


Sage Mode has a five minute limit unless you have a way around it. That's a manga fact. And we don't know how long Naruto has for his BSM since we never saw its duration. 


> I have already addressed why hashirama  can use SS to throw back the TBB,
> Sm powered makes no difference when the TBB can be grabbed or thrown back, and will only make the job easier for hashirama since the TBB would be more potent and damage naruto more,


Stop using a no-limits fallacy. You're acting like Hashirama can catch and return _Juubi's Bijudama's_ now. Catching one _standard powered Bijudama_ does not mean Hashirama can catch stronger ones. Naruto, from his very first usage of Bijudama, was able to use Super Bijudama's...which look like this or this. Hashirama can't deflect that sort of power.


> and Lol at FRS doing any remote damage whatsover,,  when PS slashes that slice multiple mountians were tanked by base hashriamas mokutons,


Biju Mode Rasenshuriken's cut through the Juubi. Stop acting like Perfect Susano'o is the best cutting user in the manga, it isn't. And Base Hashirama's Mokuton never tanked them anyway.



> Lets see what advantages Hashirama has over naruto
> 1. He Can use his mokutons and SS to redirect and Backfire narutos attacks


His only feat is catching and redirecting a standard power Bijudama. Nothing more, nothing less.


> 2. He can use his mokutons to restrain narutos power and immobilise him thus allowing him to finish him off


The only Mokuton which caught Naruto was Mokuryu...which happened while protecting allies. Not happening. Naruto destroys Mokuryu's head and makes it nothing.


> 3. He can use his SS to overwhelm Naruto


Naruto tanks Shinsusenju like nothing and shoots a Super Bijudama to vaporize the overrated statue.


> 4..He can also wait for Naruto to run out of his limit in BSM/BM and then wreck him


Sage Mode has a limit of five minutes. That goes for both Naruto and Hashirama. Thus when their Sage Mode's run out, Naruto will still be in Biju Mode, Hashirama will be in base and exhausted due to the duration. Open for a blitz.


> and now lets see what advantages does naruto have over hashirama
> Oh wait there are none apart from KB who get killed in the crossfire between the kurama avatar and SS, and do nothing but waste his chakra


You gotta be kidding me. According to you, Naruto has NO advantages? Are you this much of a Hashirama zealot where you can't admit Naruto's faster, has greater DC, durability, and physical strength? Seriously ARGUS, all you're showing is how non-objective you are.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto's reactions on low sage energy looked exactly the same as when he's fresh.  He did everything like he wanted and killed revival pain according to plan.  I've never seen anything to indicate the amount of sage energy you had effects your sage boosts.  You either have enough to sustain sage mode, or you don't have sage mode.


Don't you remember the Invasion of Pain, Pirate? After using several taxing techniques, followed by a Rasenshuriken, Naruto's reactions dropped sharply enough that a giant bird almost blitzed him, while before that he reacted, caught, and tossed the giant rhino. Even Pain commented that using too much Sage Chakra makes Sage Mode weaker.


> Naruto looks like he blocked as well as Sai, and I wouldn't say he was, "only" thrown off his feet.  He wasn't able to recover at all, and slammed pretty hard into the ground.  That's not the reaction I expect from someone who can go several tiers of speed above Hashirama.


Sai didn't really block unlike Naruto. And yes, Naruto was only thrown off his feet from it.


> It looks like edo Hashirama would have been able to react as well or better than Sage Naruto did in that situation if not for the rods.  That's keeping in mind that Living Base Hashirama was capable of matching living Madara's speed.  The living Madara with eyeballs.  The eyeballs that give you precognition.  Whilst also fighting the Kyuubi.  Even if BSM Naruto got a 2 tier boost over SM Naruto, and by extension Edo Hashirama, I just don't see Hashirama's sage mode plus the boost from being alive wouldn't at least get him in the ballpark.


It doesn't. Hashirama doesn't have any feats which shows he can react to BM speed, much less BSM speed. Hashirama was never, not once said to be a speedster nor has high reactions compared to his peers. Tobirama by Madara's own admission was faster than him.



Icegaze said:


> hashirama wins
> why are people still on about this. seriously. wood dragon already showed to restrain naruto.


Only because Naruto didn't know what the technique was even for and the fact is he was protecting his allies. Without either, he destroys the head without any trouble making it useless. Do the Hashirama side seriously forget how that clash went down?


> shinjuu absolutely murders naruto considering what it did to PS+100%kyuubi.


Naruto tanked something stronger.


> please note how easily kyuubi was restrained.


Only because Madara abandoned Kurama in the confusion instead of using any of his other abilities against the grab.


> naruto will have all his chakra absorbed. the end.


Sorry, not happening.



Likes boss said:


> Yeah I forgot to add that Sage Hashirama can react to BSM Naruto fine.


He's never reacted to anyone. Stop giving him feats of other people.


> Sage Madara dodged a blindside attack from Tobiramas who's handspeed is actually faster then Juubito himself. So I have no problems believing Hashirama can react to something slower then Juubito.


Sage _Rinnegan_ Madara reacted to Tobirama appearing _then_ attacking. He never reacted to Tobirama's FTG. Hashirama does not get ANY of Madara's feats.


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2014)

@Super

Madara reacted to Tobirama WITH HIS SAGE MODE AND NOTHING ELSE. Having the Rinnegan doesn't enhance reactions. It gives abilities. Therefore Sage Hashirama has the reactions of Sage Madara. I don't understand this don't give Hashirama Madaras feate when Madara singularly used a sage ability he canonically stole from Hashirama.

That's the point though ? Tobiramas handspeed is faster then BSM Naruto can move. Therefore  Hashirama can react to BSM Naruto at a distance very easily.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> @Super
> 
> Madara reacted to Tobirama WITH HIS SAGE MODE AND NOTHING ELSE. Having the Rinnegan doesn't enhance reactions. It gives abilities. Therefore Sage Hashirama has the reactions of Sage Madara. I don't understand this don't give Hashirama Madaras feate when Madara singularly used a sage ability he canonically stole from Hashirama.


Madara's shown better sensing in and out of Sage Mode compared to Hashirama. He could sense Hashirama from countries away while Hashirama relied on Tobirama's sensing to get an idea on what was happening on the battlefield.

The stolen Sage Mode enhanced Madara's sensing. And why wouldn't the Rinnegan enhance his abilities given what it did to the Biju? 


> That's the point though ? Tobiramas handspeed is faster then BSM Naruto can move. Therefore  Hashirama can react to BSM Naruto at a distance very easily.


The moment when Tobirama's hand deflects five Bijudama just by moving past them, you'll have a point.


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara's shown better sensing in and out of Sage Mode compared to Hashirama. He could sense Hashirama from countries away while Hashirama relied on Tobirama's sensing to get an idea on what was happening on the battlefield.
> 
> The stolen Sage Mode enhanced Madara's sensing. And why wouldn't the Rinnegan enhance his abilities given what it did to the Biju?
> 
> The moment when Tobirama's hand deflects five Bijudama just by moving past them, you'll have a point.



Madara has sensing ability via Rinnegan and Sharingan. Of course his sencing ability would be > base Hashirama. However the Rinnegan doesn't allow for a battle pre-cog like Sage mode. So in CQC it's not going to increase his reflexes. It's never been stated to have been able to do so , and there's not a single feat in the manga that pushes that notion. The Rinnegan gives new ability thus increasing Madara's overall power but it doesn't increase his reactions in CQC. It may allow him to sense chakra build up, but considering Madara was focusing his attention of the Bjuii, and considering Tobirama used FTG and an arm slash , Madara didn't perceive Tobirama till after he used FTG and was beside him.  Doesn't really matter anyway if Sage Madara has way better reactions then Sage Hashirama as a point blank FTG slash from Tobirama is far more impressive then reacting to BSM Naruto at a distance. 

Are you serious right now ? Juubito could shunshin between 5 individuals and a giant ass toad yet didn't even kick up dust or startle anyone. Does that mean that Juubitos shunshin< BSM Naruto's shunshin ? Sasuke can appear infront of Double Rinnegan and Juubi tree enhanced Juubidara and slice through him before he can perceive Sasuke , yet Sasukes arm didn't " didn't move 4 Bjuidama ." Does that mean Sasukes Riduko enhanced flicker + Arm speed<< BSM Naruto's flicker speed ? Naww it's just an exaggerated feat.  Gai is the sole entity of these bullshit exaggerated feats . He can punch out fireballs in the 6th gate from primarily handspeed\friction, yet in the 8th gate had a punch that doesn't create a fireball. Does that mean 6th gate punching speed >> 8th gate punching speed ? Naww. I could literally give 20 examples but you get it. Tobirama arm isn't going to push back BjuiiDama no matter how fast he's moving it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

My main point was that Sage Hashirama has lower reactions than Sage Madara since Madara has feats which Sage Madara doesn't, Likes Boss. You can't apply Sage Madara's feats too Hashirama.


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## ueharakk (Sep 5, 2014)

joshhookway said:


> Show where Naruto did anything comparable to this:


um, a 2 normal bijuudama would exceed the power of one of those shurikendamas.  One bijuudama wouldnʻt just cut, but completely vaporize those rashoumon gates, the second would create a blast just as large.  100% Kuramaʻs bijuudamas that were being fired at VoTe were only comparable in power to the normal ones that BM Naruto deflected with his shunshin.



joshhookway said:


> It took Naruto/Kurama fused with Sasuke's perfect suanoo to beat Obito.
> 
> 
> Guess what? Madara can do it by himself!! with 100% Kyuubi.
> ...


Considering Hashirama admitted inferiority to a mindless juubito and you just admitted that BSM Naruto + Sasuke beat a far stronger Obito, and Madara lost to Hashirama at VoTe, that conclusively disproves your argument that Madaraʻs Kyuusanoo > Sasuke + Narutoʻs kyuusanoo.

Add to the fact that BSM Naruto was spreading out his chakra among the entire shinobi alliance and even by portrayal, that allows Naruto to hand with VoTe Madara and Hashirama.


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## Hachibi (Sep 5, 2014)

Isn't Naruto gonna be Wood Dragon'd like against Madara since he lack knowledge?


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## ueharakk (Sep 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Isn't Naruto gonna be Wood Dragon'd like against Madara since he lack knowledge?



BM Naruto w/ friends he was trying to protect on the battlefield still ended up destroying wood dragon.


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## Hachibi (Sep 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> BM Naruto w/ friends he was trying to protect on the battlefield still ended up destroying wood dragon.



Madara's Mokuryu never attacked the others directly, It was all directed to Naruto and he tried to wrestle it. He lost his avatar as a result.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Madara's Mokuryu never attacked the others directly, It was all directed to Naruto and he tried to wrestle it. He lost his avatar as a result.


And he kind of instantly reformed it after. And if Naruto used any of his big attacks on it, Kakashi, Gai, and Bee would have all been caught by it.


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## Hachibi (Sep 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And he kind of instantly reformed it after. And if Naruto used any of his big attacks on it, Kakashi, Gai, and Bee would have all been caught by it.



Only partial part tho. And it's not like he had no choose but to aim to the ground to deal with it. He could have lauched a Bijuu Bomb against it when it was still near Madara and protect Kakashi form it (Hachibi would protect Gai).


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## ueharakk (Sep 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Madara's Mokuryu never attacked the others directly, It was all directed to Naruto and he tried to wrestle it. He lost his avatar as a result.


Itʻs not about mokuryu attacking them, itʻs about narutoʻs own nukes exploding and killing them.  

Madara dealt with hashiramaʻs mokuryu by nuking it, had naruto done the same, his nuke would have probably went through mokuryu, hit the ground and blow up the entire battlefield.


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## Hachibi (Sep 5, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Itʻs not about mokuryu attacking them, itʻs about narutoʻs own nukes exploding and killing them.
> 
> Madara dealt with hashiramaʻs mokuryu by nuking it, had naruto done the same, his nuke would have probably went through mokuryu, hit the ground and blow up the entire battlefield.



He would have protected his teammate with his Avatar tho (except Hachibi, but since he is in Bijuu Mode he could survive it's explosion imo).


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## ueharakk (Sep 5, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> He would have protected his teammate with his Avatar tho (except Hachibi, but since he is in Bijuu Mode he could survive it's explosion imo).



Naruto was hundreds of meters away from both kakashi and Gai.  How would he have done that when fighting mokuryu before the bijuudama goes off?


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 5, 2014)

Hashirama is a smarter tactician and ninja than Naruto is. He also is more skilled and experienced. He is more versatile than Naruto. He is at a higher level than Naruto until Naruto gained Rikudou's freebie powerup. And on top of all, he has the perfect counters to surpress Kyuubi, absorb Kyuubi's chakra, and beat it to a bloodie pulp with Shisuusenju. And he also has tools to deal with fast shinobi, since he is incredibly fast himself due to his Senju body (and being an Ashura sucessor), SM, SM sening, and clone uses that only an EMS user like Madara could see through, as well as his Mokuton pollen jutsu.

It's sad that if it wasn't for Kyuubi or Rikudou's powers, Naruto would never be at the level of SM Hashirama with his own SM despite both being Ashura's successors.


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## Kyu (Sep 5, 2014)

Makes it difficult to be a fan of Hashi when people suck his cock like its going out of style.



> Show where Naruto did anything comparable to this:








> It took Naruto/Kurama fused with Sasuke's perfect suanoo to beat Obito.



and? You say this as if Hashirama & Madara were on Obito's level. 

Guess what....


*Spoiler*: __ 



they're not.






> Guess what? Madara can do it by himself!! with 100% Kyuubi.
> 
> and look what happened to him



Good for him, but he'd be even more fucked against Juubito because every single one of his collaboration techniques would be neutralized by Juubito - due to lack of senjutsu.

The Naruto/Sasuke Kyubisano'o is powered by Nardo's Senjutsu so they had an actual effective method to combat _Onmyōton_.



> Isn't Naruto gonna be Wood Dragon'd like against Madara since he lack knowledge?


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## ueharakk (Sep 5, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Hashirama is a smarter tactician and ninja than Naruto is. He also is more skilled and experienced. He is more versatile than Naruto. He is at a higher level than Naruto until Naruto gained Rikudou's freebie powerup. And on top of all, he has the perfect counters to surpress Kyuubi, absorb Kyuubi's chakra, and beat it to a bloodie pulp with Shisuusenju. And he also has tools to deal with fast shinobi, since he is incredibly fast himself due to his Senju body (and being an Ashura sucessor), SM, SM sening, and clone uses that only an EMS user like Madara could see through, as well as his Mokuton pollen jutsu.
> 
> It's sad that if it wasn't for Kyuubi or Rikudou's powers, Naruto would never be at the level of SM Hashirama with his own SM despite both being Ashura's successors.



Hashirama having more battlesmarts than naruto?
What suggests hashirama is on another level than naruto?

Why does it matter if hashirama has jutsu that can supress the kyuubi when Naruto can easily destroy them all before they even connect?
Hashiramaʻs entire base arsenal was whipped out by a single bijuudama exploding, Hashiramaʻs bijuu suppression.

mokujin, mokuryu, flower tree world, giant mookuton arms, gojuu rashoumon, they all get fodderized by a super bijuudama, rapidfire bijuudama, or BSM Chou oodama rasenshuriken or less.
BM Naruto blocked the juubiʻs laser with only 6 of his tails, and can dish out explosives that are at least on the level that weʻve seen at VoTe, how is much stronger naruto not on Hashiramaʻs level?

And lol, Hashirama was blessed with being born with his super unique senju body that cures cancer and bad manners and how old was he at his prime?  30?  Thereʻs nothing sad about a 17 year old naruto needing half of the kyuubi to match him.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 5, 2014)

Naruto is an Uzumaki and Ashura's sucessfor as well, but compared to Hashirama. Heck, Tobirama would beat SM Naruto without Rikudou powers or Kyuubi powers.


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2014)

lol, Tobirama can't deal with kin/gin even with back up of Kage level ninja, let alone Narudo.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 5, 2014)

> Don't you remember the Invasion of Pain, Pirate? After using several taxing techniques, followed by a Rasenshuriken, Naruto's reactions dropped sharply enough that a giant bird almost blitzed him, while before that he reacted, caught, and tossed the giant rhino. Even Pain commented that using too much Sage Chakra makes Sage Mode weaker.



That bird's just fast as hell.

I expect the flying speed based bird to be faster than a rhino.  I also expect a bird summoned at full speed  close to someone to be harder to react to than a rhino summoned from really far away to charge at you.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That bird's just fast as hell.
> 
> I expect the flying speed based bird to be faster than a rhino.  I also expect a bird summoned at full speed  close to someone to be harder to react to than a rhino summoned from really far away to charge at you.


Doesn't change the fact that Pain noted Naruto's reactions and power were weaker and Naruto even commented his Sage Mode was about to run out.


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## ueharakk (Sep 5, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Naruto is an Uzumaki and Ashura's sucessfor as well, but compared to Hashirama. Heck, Tobirama would beat SM Naruto without Rikudou powers or Kyuubi powers.


Naruto is a half uzumaki, and even if he was full blooded uzumaki, those genes have nothing on Hashiramaʻs cells, the cells that allow kid obito to control 100% Kurama, fight minato and spam Kamui all day long without any negative affects.  (and obitoʻs only using a pseudo body).

If Tobirama does beat war arc SM Naruto (who can fuse with ma and pa) itʻs going to be a hell of a fight.  

Plus, Tobirama is like 30.  Give naruto 13 years and I wouldnʻt be surprised if heʻs around or at least close to Hashiramaʻs level.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Doesn't change the fact that Pain noted Naruto's reactions and power were weaker and Naruto even commented his Sage Mode was about to run out.



Pain doesn't say anything about reactions.  He says, "power."  He watched Naruto's chakra dip with his rinnegan.  

When Naruto molds a little bit of sage chakra and enters instant sage mode vs Sandaime, he does it specifically for the boost in reaction speed.  Later, when he needed the rasen-shuriken, he sat and did a full charge.  He used a similar instant mode to sense the war.  That tells me you don't need more than sage mode to get all the bonuses.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Pain doesn't say anything about reactions.  He says, "power."


But with less Sage Chakra, reactions would fall. And then Naruto would become exhausted.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 5, 2014)

Whether or not that would make sense, I have never seen Naruto's reactions fall, until he loses sage mode altogether.  Up until the last moment when he dropped out of sage mode, he was performing consistently.  

I'd need to see a significant drop, or at least a tier, (which should be easily noticeable) to start believing he could hold a significant 2 tier speed edge over Hashirama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Whether or not that would make sense, I have never seen Naruto's reactions fall, until he loses sage mode altogether.  Up until the last moment when he dropped out of sage mode, he was performing consistently.
> 
> I'd need to see a significant drop, or at least a tier, (which should be easily noticeable) to start believing he could hold a significant 2 tier speed edge over Hashirama.


When Naruto is fresh in Sage Mode, he can react and counter attack the likes of Sandaime Raikage, whose physically faster and stronger than Madara. When he's used a significant amount of power up, he's nearly blitzed by summons and can't react to Preta Path and Deva Path.


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## Veracity (Sep 5, 2014)

I wouldn't say the Sandaime is faster then Madara at all.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Sep 5, 2014)

Where is your proof that Sandaime Raikage is faster than Madara? He doesn't have V2 like Ei does.

And Madara reacted to even V2 Ei's speed and blocked it.

Madara not only has the most sinister chakra according to Kyuubi, and the greatest physical stats among Uchihas, who danced with counltess shinobis in just pure Taijutsu, the guy even outright blocked a punch from Ei.

You're seriously understimating Madara's physical stats.

He also has Hashirama's powers and Rinnegan power flowing in him that most likely augment all his stats.

I mean, I doubt just Sage Mode allowed him to be able to survive the Bijuus whiptail attack to him and kicking him around.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I wouldn't say the Sandaime is faster then Madara at all.


Dodges Rasenshuriken twice (only other person to do so was Pain at that point), gets complimented for his speed, compared directly to A and has as much or even more chakra than him? Sandaime is faster than Madara in spades.

Madara nor Hashirama were ever noted to be speedsters, thats the area they lack. Madara blitzing a exhausted Sage Mode Naruto and Sai isn't on the feat that any of the Raikages had.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dodges Rasenshuriken twice (only other person to do so was Pain at that point), gets complimented for his speed, compared directly to A and has as much or even more chakra than him? Sandaime is faster than Madara in spades.
> 
> Madara nor Hashirama were ever noted to be speedsters, thats the area they lack. Madara blitzing a exhausted Sage Mode Naruto and Sai isn't on the feat that any of the Raikages had.



Pain was never mentioned to be a speedster yet he dodged a FRS at a much closer distance then the Sandaime did. May I also add that Sage Naruto >> KCM Naruto in physical strength so technically a FRS thrown by Sage Naruto would be much faster. So Unless you believe that Pain > Madara in speed , the FRS feat isn't impressive.

Naruto saying all the Raikage's are fast is a extremely vague statement and isn't even close to making the statement of Sandaime > Madara valid.

Lol if he has more chakra , then it's by the smallest amount. Have you forgot that Madara Uchiha is the man who could fight Hashirama Senju for 24 hours straight which is ridiculously more chakra exhausted then fighting fodder. Have you also forgot that Madara could completely control Kurama, wrap a PS around the Kyyubi( which takes a massive amount of chakra just to accomplish) , and then continue to use taxing Justu like PS, other levels of Sussano , and battlefield level Katon to fight Hashirama for hours ? Lol Madara is a chakra monster. Anyway, more Chakra doesn't mean more speed at all.

I'm trying to figure out why you think Naruto was exhausted ? True he used a big ass Justu , but we have to realize that his proficiency as a sage has gone up leaps and bounds, and he is now in cooperation with the Kyuubi which practically just hands him nigh limitless amounts of chakra . I mean hell, Naruto didn't even look exhausted in a single panel from when he entered Sage mode to where he entered BSM mode. Even if we were to assume that Naruto was exhausted, the circumstance was much different from when he was battling pain. Against pain he was visually losing his sage mode. You could actually see fatigue and you could see his performance changing. It's also to note that pain never said reactions...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2014)

Like, Madara isn't a speedster, but he could handle Ei's speed, as a slower edo.  Madara isn't a speedster, but he could handle Tobirama's hiraishin-giri.

KCM Naruto is roughly as fast as Ei.
SM Naruto can react to Sandaime, who seems a little slower but more tanky and stabby than Ei.

Edo Madara can handle Ei's speed, though he's slower.
Living Madara is probably around Ei speed or greater.

Living Hashirama is at least as fast as living Madara.

So living Hashirama arguably holds roughly equal or greater reactions/speed to either SM Naruto or KCM Naruto.

Even if BSM grants Naruto 2 tiers of speed over either of his other incarnation, SM should grant Hashirama at least 1 tier if not more of speed, and the reactions to hang with people a little bit faster than him.  Less than 1 tier of speed difference is not enough to constitute a blitz in my book.  

I think we should agree to move on.


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## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

Actually Madara is pretty fast given his performance right out the gate as an Edo. I'd place him on Sasuke Shushin tier.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Actually Madara is pretty fast given his performance right out the gate as an Edo. I'd place him on Sasuke Shushin tier.



Which Sasuke ? I doubt any Sasuke bar Riduko Sasuke could out sage Naruto in the same position Madara did with a flicker .


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## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

EMS Sasuke. Madara accomplished the feat you are talking about with his flame mist.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> EMS Sasuke. Madara accomplished the feat you are talking about with his flame mist.



No? He definitely blizted Sage Naruto with a shunshin?


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Hashirama's speed should be around 2.5 or 3 out of 5 based on this. U_U
He's a bit slower than old Hiruzen


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## Legendary Itachi (Sep 6, 2014)

But Tobirama is faster than old Hiruzen. 

And you can't deny it's ridiculous for Hashi to have less than 3.5 in speed if even Base Naruto has a 3.5 in speed.


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## StickaStick (Sep 6, 2014)

Could go either way. Personally I think Naruto is supposed to be viewed as having officially surpassed Hashirama (his transmigrate predecessor or w/e) at this point, but that's jmo.


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## JuicyG (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Hashirama's speed should be around 2.5 or 3 out of 5 based on this. U_U
> He's a bit slower than old Hiruzen




This


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Legendary Itachi said:


> But Tobirama is faster than old Hiruzen.
> 
> And you can't deny it's ridiculous for Hashi to have less than 3.5 in speed if even Base Naruto has a 3.5 in speed.




- with FTG.
- Narudo is awesome, it can't be helped. 
and I don't know what does their speed have to do with each other honestly.


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## Ashi (Sep 6, 2014)

Oh Come now 

Hashirama keeping up with Madara is a speed feat well enough that he's faster than Hiruzen


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Oh Come now
> 
> Hashirama keeping up with Madara is a speed feat well enough that he's faster than Hiruzen



Hashirama keeping up with madara proves that he is faster than Hiruzen
but Hiruzen arriving before Hashirama does not prove that he is faster than him! 


That hurt my brain!


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## tari101190 (Sep 6, 2014)

I would say Naruto wins, but then I remembered Hashirama can suppress the Kyuubi's chakra. And actually has enough chakra to not be overwhelmed.

In the meantime Hashirama can defend against Bijuudamas with giant Wood constructs & Rashoumons.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Hashirama's speed should be around 2.5 or 3 out of 5 based on this. U_U
> He's a bit slower than old Hiruzen



Literally get out of here with stuff like that. You know how dumb it is . It's not even logical. Lol Tenten and Neji keep up with lees traveling speed casually at all times. Does that mean Lee = Tenten = Neji? No damn.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2014)

tari101190 said:


> I would say Naruto wins, but then I remembered Hashirama can suppress the Kyuubi's chakra. And actually has enough chakra to not be overwhelmed.


Naruto has enough techniques to deal with Hashirama's Mokuton. Suppression doesn't come into play.


> In the meantime Hashirama can defend against Bijuudamas with giant Wood constructs & Rashoumons.


Normal Bijudama's sure, but Senpo: Cho Bijudama's or Futon: Rasenshuriken's? I think not.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Literally get out of here with stuff like that. You know how dumb it is . It's not even logical. Lol Tenten and Neji keep up with lees traveling speed casually at all times. Does that mean Lee = Tenten = Neji? No damn.




so you're saying that is not correct?
Strange, I was under the impression that you care about what's shown rather than what's stated or something like that. 

or does that only apply to Hashi/Tobi?


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 6, 2014)

If you legitimately think Hashirama's speed is anything but a solid 5, I don't know what to say to you. Do you think Tobirama has the same level of speed because Sarutobi arrived before him, too?


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Goose said:


> If you legitimately think Hashirama's speed is anything but a solid 5, I don't know what to say to you. Do you think Tobirama has the same level of speed because Sarutobi arrived before him, too?



am sorry but when has hashirama EVER been praised for his speed, or even hinted for his speed?
like EVER? 

- Tobirama is fast because of FTG as well, he has never shown any feats with shunshin either...
unless you can perhaps show any scan for him using shunshin.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 6, 2014)

He's never been praised for his speed, but I would think that it's common sense to assume that he's more than average or 'above average' in speed.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Well, since there is nothing like that, then I don't see what's wrong to talk what was shown!
or is common sense should be taken in a higher regard that what was shown in the manga?


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Well, since there is nothing like that, then I don't see what's wrong to talk what was shown!
> or is common sense should be taken in a higher regard that what was shown in the manga?



The manga has not shown Hashirama being slow, nor has it directly complimented his speed. This is because his main shtick - the thing he is associated with - are his overwhelming power and chakra supply. Just because nobody has explicitly said _"sasuga! Hashirama-san is so fast!" _doesn't mean he is slow. I'll agree that he's probably slower than the incarnation of Naruto he's fighting against in this thread and probably not as fast as Minato, but comparing his speed to that of the average genin is, frankly, kind of ridiculous.

If you read through the manga, there are panels which scales Hashirama's speed up towards the top tiers (re: more or less every panel he's fighting), even if he doesn't necessarily reach their particular level in this area. His fight against Madara at the Valley of the End, for example, has him outrunning a bijū-dama for a brief period of time, whilst his second fight in the War arc shows him being able to skirmish him in taijutsu fairly comfortably while attacked by the branches of the Shinjū. Incidentally, those are the very same branches which speed-blitzed everyone else - including Naruto, albeit an exhausted one. So, unless you believe Madara is slow or think that his bijū-dama was the speed of a shuriken, I think these feats put him comfortably at a 5.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> but, anyway, no one said he's slow 2.5 is average, and 3 is above average. And you said it yourself, his main thing is about the overwhelming power, so it's not strange if he suck at something else that's not his cup of tea.



Let me put it in a different wording: 2.5 is average and 3 is above average in the broad picture. But when you're fighting amongst the top levels like Hashirama does, nothing short of a 5 or, if we're really stretching at the boundaries, 4.5 is going to cut it. Madara is very fast, and Hashirama would have been speed-blitzed by him and killed instantly if he wasn't at least just as fast. 

Incidentally, I want to note that the speed stat doesn't necessarily just refer to physical movement speed. It also includes things like reaction speed and, if I recall correctly, the speed of one's jutsu. Do you think Hashirama processes incoming attacks at genin level?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2014)

SM Naruto about 50% Kyubi: "He's so fast!!!". Hashirama reacted to full Kyubi at this range and later escaped it from like a point-blank range. Then you have living _blind_ Madara blitzing SM Naruto. And Hashirama not showing any difficulties when dealing with Madara's speed... when he was actually using Sharingan. 

Hashirama is very fast even in Base. It's just that his other abilities outshine even that level of speed.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

point-blank range

perhaps this can clarify my perspective, as Hashirama was already a head of the TBB. U_U


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## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2014)

Are you seriously using anime to prove your point? Deva Path should be at like Kaguya's level based on anime-feats.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

@Hussain

And I've already proven how Hashirama actually outpaced the Bjuii-Shiruken. Lol but for your sake lets completely disregard that feat...But He still has feats that put him above many many 5 tier speedsters. Like completely avoiding the AoE of a CHOU ODAMA FRS instantly: point-blank range

You know damn well old Hiruzen , Hidan or kiba couldn't avoid that shit lol. Not even Itachi , Base Gai, or MS Kakashi couldn't get close to avoiding that.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Are you seriously using anime to prove your point? Deva Path should be at like Kaguya's level based on anime-feats.



I tried with the manga, but no matter how much I explained it never help apparently, and unlike
the Deva path there is no filler, it's just like what happened in the manga. U_U


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## Hachibi (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> I tried with the manga, but no matter how much I explained it never help apparently, and unlike
> the Deva path there is no filler, it's just like what happened in the manga. U_U



Anime is non-canon no matter what. As for using the anime


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