# Baroness Thatcher has died



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155#TWEET714901

(There's now a video in the page linked.)



> *Former Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher has died "peacefully" at the age of 87 after suffering a stroke while staying at the Ritz hotel in central London.*
> 
> David Cameron called her a "great Briton" and the Queen spoke of her sadness at the death.
> 
> ...



I'll edit this if, and when, the BBC article is edited.

The BBC has posted an obituary: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10364876

It's rather long, and will definitely go over the character limit, so I'm not going to paste it here. I'm done updating it. I think they're done anyway.

Here's a brief outline of her life:


> LIFE OF MARGARET THATCHER
> 
> 13 October 1925 - Born Margaret Hilda Roberts in Grantham, Lincolnshire
> 1951 - Married businessman Denis Thatcher
> ...



The article


----------



## Smiley (Apr 8, 2013)

Good.


----------



## Sōsuke Aizen (Apr 8, 2013)

Condolences to her family and friends.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 8, 2013)

Just say Margaret 

RIP to her, just watched the movie.  Gorbachev is next.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

I can't say i'm not happy about this.

Being from Argentina and knowing the history behind the Islas Malvinas and all the shit she did...

I hope she meets some soldiers from cruiser General Belgrano, they will glady help her way..


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

You mean the Falklands.

And Argentina INVADED the Falklands without jus ad bellum or any legit reasons.

They're not your islands.  Not now, not ever.  And I'm an American saying this.


----------



## Velocity (Apr 8, 2013)

I've never seen so much hatred for one person... People are actually happy she's dead, they're having _parties_ and they won't even shut up about a football match that took place before most of them were even born (as if she had walked up to 96 people and put a bullet in their heads).

She wasn't the best PM we've ever had, and she made mistakes, but I'd like to have seen Cameron or Blair or Brown stick up for us the way she did against Argentina. Say what you like about her - at least she had pride in her country and enough of a backbone to protect it.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> You mean the Falklands.
> 
> And Argentina INVADED the Falklands without jus ad bellum or any legit reasons.
> 
> They're not your islands.  Not now, not ever.  And I'm an American saying this.



If you want to discuss this, it will last forever, for me they're the Islas Malvinas and they're from Argentina, this lady was a killer, sorry if i'm being an asshole about this but in Argentina she's a sinister person in our history, that's it.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

But they're not.  Even history says so.  No documentation supports your claim either. 

Your country started that conflict.  Your attitude is like a Japanese saying that Pearl Harbor didn't kickstart the Pacific campaign of WW2.

Not your fucking islands, Kirchner.



Velocity said:


> I've never seen so much hatred for one person... People are actually happy she's dead, they're having _parties_ and they won't even shut up about a football match that took place before most of them were even born (as if she had walked up to 96 people and put a bullet in their heads).
> 
> She wasn't the best PM we've ever had, and she made mistakes, but I'd like to have seen Cameron or Blair or Brown stick up for us the way she did against Argentina. Say what you like about her - at least she had pride in her country and enough of a backbone to protect it.



Plus she did have a rather clever barb against socialism. 

She was England's Reagan, IMO.  I gotta say it took guts for her to do what she did and like it or not she placed herself amongst history's strong female leaders.  She wasn't an Elizabeth, but she gave pride to the British after decades of post-colonial irrelevance.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 8, 2013)

I'll say what I said in the other thread.

I expected the hateful rhetoric, the same as when Reagan died.  People can't seem to mourn the person and not the leader they didn't agree with.  The only people here who are exempt should be the Malvinians and the Irish.


----------



## horsdhaleine (Apr 8, 2013)

.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 8, 2013)




----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 8, 2013)

Yeah, it sounds like large parts of Britain hate her. From everything I've read about her, she sounded like a shit leader who caused a lot of pain and suffering.


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

The revisionism, from all sides, is going to make the next few weeks quite frustrating for anyone that wants to truly try and understand her time in power.

That's not to say that one side isn't more guilty than the other, merely that to an extent, both sides are guilty.


----------



## horsdhaleine (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> You mean the Falklands.
> 
> And Argentina INVADED the Falklands without jus ad bellum or any legit reasons.
> 
> They're not your islands.  Not now, not ever.  And I'm an American saying this.



Mael got it the other way around.


----------



## Velocity (Apr 8, 2013)

Mider T said:


>



This sort of thing disgusts me. The most people who are spreading stuff like this are in their 20's or 30's - what do they actually know about Thatcher? My Dad says all she did was screw over socialists, miners and people who lived in council houses. I was only a baby when Thatcher left office, so even the people ten years older than me that're celebrating her death wouldn't have even been teenagers in 1990. 

All we (basically anyone under 40) know about her is what other people have told us, so what's with this intense hatred?


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 8, 2013)

HAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Saishin (Apr 8, 2013)

Oh well surely she was one of the most influence political figure of the past history so the PM is dead, long live the PM


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 8, 2013)

Velocity said:


> I've never seen so much hatred for one person... People are actually happy she's dead, they're having _parties_ and they won't even shut up about a football match that took place before most of them were even born (as if she had walked up to 96 people and put a bullet in their heads).



Yes she wasn't personally responsible for the events that transpired at Hillsborough but the decisive attitude, gross miss characterisation and inflamed rhetoric that she displayed to that section of society contributed to the belief from those responsible that they could get away with spuriously attributing blame to "loutish drunken Liverpool fans". The fact that a lot of people believed it at the time shows that.

Neither was she concerned at all with finding out the truth either, rather she was more mindful of the impact it would have on the reputation of the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19574492

Given the shocking scale of the cover up exposed last year it was also poor form from her to not even offer up a humble apology either. Even that sleazebag Kelvin Mckenzie apologised. 




Velocity said:


> This sort of thing disgusts me. The most people who are spreading stuff like this are in their 20's or 30's - what do they actually know about Thatcher? My Dad says all she did was screw over socialists, miners and people who lived in council houses. I was only a baby when Thatcher left office, so even the people ten years older than me that're celebrating her death wouldn't have even been teenagers in 1990.
> 
> All we (basically anyone under 40) know about her is what other people have told us, so what's with this intense hatred?



A lot of youngsters have grown up in families affected by the domestic policies introduced by Thatcher, so they've experienced first hand her legacy. Besides it's not exactly new or wrong to dislike historical figures even if they were before your time. I despise Hitler even though he was active before my time.

Not that I like the guy, but Ken Livingstone was really ripping her with some valid points on Sky News before he was cut off (lol Murdoch). 

All the following rose under her leadership, Unemployment (from about 5% to a shocking 11.3%), Poverty, Homelessness, Inequality, Public spending etc etc. 

She did however display a strong resolve against Unions, The Argentinians and the USSR, which mythologised her amongst the Conservative wing.


Granted I think celebrating her death is extreme but I'm not surprised that large swathes of the North and the millions of people affected by her destructive policies aren't exactly moved by her death.

It's quite good fortune that Liverpool or Everton aren't playing tonight. There would have been quite a few nasty chants which the Daily Mail would have jumped at to spew false indignation at. I'm just hoping the Premier League don't do anything silly like have a minute's silence at all games next week. 



Also lol at the responses when Harry Styles (the guy from One Direction tweeted R.I.P. Thatcher)



Our Education system 



P.S. 

CNN


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

Um, wow.


----------



## Disquiet (Apr 8, 2013)

Velocity said:


> My Dad says all she did was screw over socialists, miners and people who lived in council houses.


Oh, is that all (!).

It's entirely possible that some of the people you're talking about were children of adults who were screwed over by Thatcher and felt the repercussions that way. At the same time, though, she _has_ been built up for the last few decades as something of a symbol of the dicking-over of the working classes - thanks largely to her effective dismantling of the unions - so it's become fashionable for those people, and those who identify with those people, to hate her even now. That she's considered so amazing on the conservative side of the fence only serves to exacerbate that.

In any case, I find her policies distasteful, her political philosophy disagreeable and her attitude contemptible, but I didn't wish her dead.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

Im'ma grab the popcorn for this.

Brit on Brit debate.


----------



## Linkdarkside (Apr 8, 2013)

she kicked the argentines invaders asses!


----------



## Gunners (Apr 8, 2013)

Velocity said:


> This sort of thing disgusts me. The most people who are spreading stuff like this are in their 20's or 30's - what do they actually know about Thatcher? My Dad says all she did was screw over socialists, miners and people who lived in council houses. I was only a baby when Thatcher left office, so even the people ten years older than me that're celebrating her death wouldn't have even been teenagers in 1990.
> 
> All we (basically anyone under 40) know about her is what other people have told us, so what's with this intense hatred?



All we know about Adolf Hitler is what other people told us. I don't exactly agree ( actually I'm indifferent) with people celebrating her death but your post was incredibly moronic. People can research the history and people can/experience the long term implications of her decisions.


----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 8, 2013)

I found out she died from my father.

He had a big smile on his face when he told me.


----------



## Velocity (Apr 8, 2013)

BrianTheGoldfish said:


> thanks largely to her effective dismantling of the unions



To be brutally honest, the unions screwed _everyone_ over in the 70's. There were so many strikes in everything from the Post Office to the steel industry that the unions were basically crippling everyone and humiliating the Government. The "three-day week" thing that went on for three months during the 70's was _entirely_ because the unions decided they didn't want to work as much as they should have.

Inflation may have been causing serious problems but that was no reason for Unions to pretty much "dick-over" the entire country. They weren't interested in lowering inflation, they wanted their pay to go up.

What Thatcher did against the Unions was, as far as I can see, the only option. She may have been too aggressive but what other choice was there? How can a country sustain itself if there are strikes and walk outs every week? Rubbish wasn't being collected and there were even unburied corpses in Liverpool and this went on for _weeks_. It's disgusting behaviour and, as we know, you have to do what your Union tells you or they kick you out. So even if most people working in those industries didn't want to go on strike, they had no choice. 

The Unions were messing up the country on a huge scale and Thatcher put a stop to it. It was nothing more than a case of people in power wanting more power.


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 8, 2013)

George Galloway is a moron who incites racial problems within communities, but the faux outrage from the Daily Mail here from his tweet is brilliant, 








I also can't help thinking that the Daily Mail pouring outrage to the campaign from some quarters to get "Ding Dong The Witch is Dead" to number one in the charts is going to backfire spectacularly (Streisand effect innit) - it's only going to increase it's publicity. 

You just need to have a look at the dramatic rise in comments over the past few hours in this video,


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> If you want to discuss this, it will last forever, for me they're the Islas Malvinas and they're from Argentina, this lady was a killer, sorry if i'm being an asshole about this but in Argentina she's a sinister person in our history, that's it.



A) Argentina never owned Falklands. Britain had ownership BEFORE Argentina was a country.  Britain (England prior act of union)/France/Spain co-owned the islands in the 1600s and early 1700s but France then Spain gave up ownership to Britain before Argentine independence.  This would be like 3 people owning a car, 2 people giving it up and the child of one of the 2 keep throwing tantrums saying "Daddy gave it to me." When all legal documents point to the daddy legally handing ownership to the 3rd man.

b) The Belgrano was a legitimate military target in a war.  Sorry but a battle cruiser in a war is a target plain and simple

c) Thatcher was a bitch back at home anyway causing many people to lose their jobs so the rich could line their pockets.  Most of the problems economically in the UK today can still be traced back to her and her lets put all our eggs into banking and fuck anyone who has any other kind of job.  If anything she would have been voted out in 83 but for a stupid country trying to grab something that never belonged to them.

D) Her treatment of football fans all over the country over Hysel (Both sides were to blame.) and Hillsboro was beyond appalling basically making it so it was almost a crime to be a football fan.

E) She mistreated british catholics making it more appealing for people to run to the IRA.

F) Basically destroyed the scottish economy.

G) Lets not get started on the poll tax.

I wonder if Franky is digging now.

[YOUTUBE]xmmomV-ax-s[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> Im'ma grab the popcorn for this.
> 
> Brit on Brit debate.



Same. These people use big words and shit.


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 8, 2013)

R.I.P

For better or worse a key figure in the history of Britain, Europe and the world. And definitly and inspiration to female politicians, demonstrating that they to can reach the highest office.


----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 8, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Same. These people use big words and shit.


----------



## Faither (Apr 8, 2013)

Mider T said:


> I'll say what I said in the other thread.
> 
> I expected the hateful rhetoric, the same as when Reagan died.  People can't seem to mourn the person and not the leader they didn't agree with.  The only people here who are exempt should be the Malvinians and the Irish.



Who on Earth are the Malvinians? There can't be more than four or five people who identify themselves as such, the overwhelming majority of inhabitants identify themselves as Falklanders and are perfectly within their rights to do so.

Anyway, she's dead, which on a human level is a shame, though as a dementia sufferer she has been living in effigy for some time in any case.

I also think it's unrealistic to ask people to try and view the person differently from the politician, she - and the policies she championed and enacted - affected millions of lives, often not for the better, it's scarce wonder people react viscerally.


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 8, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> .
> E) She mistreated british catholics making it more appealing for people to run to the IRA.
> 
> 
> G) Lets not get started on the poll tax.



Yes I completely forgot those two points as well.


She was the biggest recruiting tool for the IRA. And the Poll Tax was probably the worst legislation ever introduced in the democratised Western World.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 8, 2013)

Her grave is soon to become a permanent dance floor/urinal for all right minded people.


----------



## abc123 (Apr 8, 2013)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Her grave is soon to become a permanent dance floor/urinal for all right minded people.


Yes, because all right minded people would dance and piss on a grave.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 8, 2013)

They would if it was hers.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

Velocity said:


> My Dad says all she did was screw over socialists, miners and people who lived in council houses.



So nobody worth mentioning?


----------



## Toby (Apr 8, 2013)

She deserves a funeral, but PMs don't get state funerals. That's for the current head of state, royals and very important persons of British history, like Churchill.

"Breaking the unions" was not necessary in all cases, such as industry. Most of mainland Europe kept their workers happy and have maintained their manufacturing sector, save Italy and Spain. As a result of Thatcher's meddling in the shipyard industry, Scotland's biggest industry failed and Britain lost the knowledge and workers needed to maintain their naval carriers.

Most of the shipyards that remained were bought up by Norwegian companies like Aker and ever since, the engineers go there for employment in shipping, construction, and oil and gas-related work.

Which was great, because it's not like Scotland needed an economy, right?



KBL said:


> I can't say i'm not happy about this.
> 
> Being from Argentina and knowing the history behind the Islas Malvinas and all the shit she did...
> 
> I hope she meets some soldiers from cruiser General Belgrano, they will glady help her way..



If Argentina had not murdered innocent civilians, I might have given a shit.

But since it was a fascist dictatorship at the time? No. I would have expected the same from any other head of state, but Thatcher was hardly being cruel to the Argentinians. The Falklanders never wanted any other life than one under the Union Jack.

But sure, stay classy Argentina. Blame other people for your problems. I am sure Britain is to blame for the high inflation and corrupt government too.



Mider T said:


> *The only people here who are exempt should be the Malvinians and the Irish*.





Oh man, I knew this thread would deliver


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 8, 2013)

"...give everyone in Scotland a shovel, and we could dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to Satan in person."


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

We're probably going to have this same "thank fuck he/she is dead" for every dead PM in the forseeable future.

We perfidious colonists do it differently. America was sad when fucking Nixon died.

Maybe you should try electing your leaders or something?


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> We're probably going to have this same "thank fuck he/she is dead" for every dead PM in the forseeable future.
> 
> We perfidious colonists do it differently. America was sad when fucking Nixon died.
> 
> Maybe you should try electing your leaders or something?



We really won't. Major, Blair, Brown, and even Cameron don't get anything like the hate Thatcher got. And nobody cares about the PMs who came before her.


----------



## Han Solo (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> We're probably going to have this same "thank fuck he/she is dead" for every dead PM in the forseeable future.
> 
> We perfidious colonists do it differently. America was sad when fucking Nixon died.
> 
> Maybe you should try electing your leaders or something?



Blair may well get it for the Iraq war, I don't think anyone else will really though.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> We're probably going to have this same "thank fuck he/she is dead" for every dead PM in the forseeable future.
> 
> We perfidious colonists do it differently. America was sad when fucking Nixon died.
> 
> Maybe you should try electing your leaders or something?



Not really, most of them are in the news for a day or two when they day. It's pretty rare to get someone as hated as Thatcher.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Not really, most of them are in the news for a day or two when they day. It's pretty rare to get someone as hated as Thatcher.



Ronald Reagan?


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 8, 2013)

Given all the obvious anger against her, may I ask how she kept getting elected?

The same question could be asked about Reagan, who kept the Republicans in power for _three_ terms - the third of which he could not serve himself due to term limitations (I assume), the job instead going to vice president George Bush sr.


----------



## JH24 (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> I can't say i'm not happy about this.
> 
> Being from Argentina and knowing the history behind the Islas Malvinas and all the shit she did...
> 
> I hope she meets some soldiers from cruiser General Belgrano, they will glady help her way..



Please don't go that way. It was Argentina who started the conflict, you couldn't expect Britain to just accept an invasion. 


As for Margaret Thatcher, RIP. She was a kind of person you would either love or hate, there just wasn't an inbetween. I can understand people weren't happy with Thatcher but the outright hate I've seen in comments here and in other places is almost insane, so much hate can't be healthy.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> Ronald Reagan?



Which country was he the prime minister of again? Remind me, please


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

mr_shadow said:


> Given all the obvious anger against her, may I ask how she kept getting elected?
> 
> The same question could be asked about Reagan, who kept the Republicans in power for _three_ terms - the third of which he could not serve himself due to term limitations (I assume), the job instead going to vice president George Bush sr.



Having one mainstream conservative party going against two mainstream liberal parties is really convenient for conservatives.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> Ronald Reagan?



>Being this young

Reagan is fucking deified. Even liberals who weren't 1 year old in 1988 like him.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

Saufsoldat said:


> Which country was he the prime minister of again? Remind me, please



I'll do you one better.  He was a President. 

And yeah lolno Blue.  Ask the entire black community about Reagan.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm always amazed how the GOP managed to get Reagan to god status. He was one of the worst presidents in history and fucked his country worse than Thatcher did hers, but somehow there are a lot of Americans who like the guy.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> Ronald Reagan?



[YOUTUBE]jRNCpD3xhsY[/YOUTUBE]

Technically he was loved by some people .


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 8, 2013)

It's because Reagan had charisma, and the media celebrates presidents no matter what. Nobody knew at the time he was senile (Alzheimer's) and most likely mentally unfit to be president 

I mean hell, the media wept like they'd lost their dads when Gerald Ford died. And his most remembered action was pardoning Nixon.

Guaranteed when Chimpy dies, they'll cry like babies and try to deify him even though they spent 8 years despising him. They need a sad theater event, how else will they get ratings without no tears?


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> And yeah lolno Blue.  Ask the entire black community about Reagan.



Only half of them even voted. They clearly had white-hot hatred burning in their souls.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> It's because Reagan had charisma, and the media celebrates presidents no matter what. Nobody knew at the time he was senile (Alzheimer's) and most likely mentally unfit to be president
> 
> I mean hell, the media wept like they'd lost their dads when Gerald Ford died. And his most remembered action was pardoning Nixon.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hE77pbEF9g[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Linkdarkside (Apr 8, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> It's because Reagan had charisma, and the media celebrates presidents no matter what. Nobody knew at the time he was senile (Alzheimer's) and most likely mentally unfit to be president
> 
> I mean hell, the media wept like they'd lost their dads when Gerald Ford died. And his most remembered action was pardoning Nixon.
> 
> Guaranteed when Chimpy dies, they'll cry like babies and try to deify him even though they spent 8 years despising him. They need a sad theater event, how else will they get ratings without no tears?



Reagan was diagnosed whit Alzheimers in 1994.


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 8, 2013)

From the point of view of my own special interest, one good move on Thatcher's part was that she agreed with Deng Xiaoping to return Hong Kong to Chinese sovereignity.

Hong Kong was not a democracy under British rule -the governor being appointed from London-, so it was not a democracy vs dictatorship choice. It was a choice between a dictator that is of another ethnicity and lives on the other side of the world, or a dictator who is of your own ethnicity and lives next door. I think HK belonging to China feels more natural, especially with the _one country - two systems_ policy that lets them retain freedom of speech and market economy within the city limits.

The municipal politics of Hong Kong are btw to become fully democratic in 2017, if Beijing keep their word (the rest of the country will not be affected). If it happens the HKers will actually be more free with China than with Britain.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Linkdarkside said:


> she kicked the argentines invaders asses!



You mean killing almost 300 lives when the ARA General Belgrano was attacked outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone ? Ugh.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> You mean killing almost 300 lives when the ARA General Belgrano was attacked outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone ? Ugh.



Argentina invaded without good cause, thus it got everything that was coming to it.  Can't cover up the facts it was never your chain of islands, there is no solid proof it was ever Argentina's islands, Kirchner is a cunt, and that attacking the Falkland citizens was anywhere near noble.  Maggie isn't the killer here, it was your leader at that time in 1982.  

They brought that on themselves.

I suggest Kuntchner fix the economy instead of cry to the public and plead to the Pope over land that was never Argentina's.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

The leader of that time was shit... Galtieri, and i don't understand why you bring Kirchner into this .


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> The leader of that time was shit... Galtieri, and i don't understand why you bring Kirchner into this .



Because she's the bitch that won't let it go and of course she'll have something to say in jubilation over the death of a woman who rightfully defended her citizens from aggression from Kirchner's predecessors.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 8, 2013)

mr_shadow said:


> Given all the obvious anger against her, may I ask how she kept getting elected?



Labour was completely unelectable at the time,  Liberal Democrats were two seperate parties and in the end she won the Falklands war which must have given her a 10% rise in votes (Which can give you up to 30% of seats in parliament).



> Maybe you should try electing your leaders or something?



You mean how Bush got more votes than Gore in 2000.


Oh wait.  You don't elect your presidents the college does.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> You mean killing almost 300 lives when the ARA General Belgrano was attacked outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone ? Ugh.



Argentina's claim to the Malvinas:
-They're kind of close to Argentina

the UK's claim to the Falklands:
-In British possession since 1830-something
-Populated almost exclusively by British
-3 (three) people on the entire islands want to be ruled by Argentina; the rest prefer British rule
-Argentina started a war of conquest
-Fascist Argentine government had no legitimacy

So basically

[YOUTUBE]M5QGkOGZubQ[/YOUTUBE]


You're fortunate the British stopped before conquering your whole nation.


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> You mean killing almost 300 lives when the ARA General Belgrano was attacked outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone ? Ugh.



Your own navy agrees that that was a legitimate act of war. Britain made it very clear that they would not confine themselves to the Exclusion Zone, and that Argentinian ships in the vicinity would be attacked.

General Belgrano would certainly have attacked any British ships that it could:


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> Argentina's claim to the Malvinas:
> -They're kind of close to Argentina
> 
> the UK's claim to the Falklands:
> ...



Considering the fact that in that time Britain had the best naval force in the entire world against Argentina who had teenagers with almost no training, yeah very fair , Britain will be forever a Pirate country in the eyes of Argentina... always.


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> Considering the fact that in that time Britain had the best naval force in the entire world against Argentina who had teenagers with almost no training, yeah very fair , Britain will be forever a Pirate country in the eyes of Argentina... always.



Attacking a country with a superior military force when you have no justification doesn't make you right, merely idiotic. 

Instead of being mad that your country lost a war, perhaps be mad at the junta of the time.


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

Doesn't change the fact you lost and it was never yours in the history of man. :33


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> You mean killing almost 300 lives when the ARA General Belgrano was attacked outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone ? Ugh.



Didnt know in War , Warships benefit from a decree designed for Neutral Vessels. 

The more you know .


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> Your own navy agrees that that was a legitimate act of war. Britain made it very clear that they would not confine themselves to the Exclusion Zone, and that Argentinian ships in the vicinity would be attacked.
> 
> General Belgrano would certainly have attacked any British ships that it could:



Probably, i know it was a act of war, but for me it was unfair, and i can't forgive it, well no one here can, it was a dark time... you can't blame Argentina for being happy about her dying... i'm not the only one, you need to understand this side of the war as well.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> Attacking a country with a superior military force when you have no justification doesn't make you right, merely idiotic.
> 
> Instead of being mad that your country lost a war, perhaps be mad at the junta of the time.



It was the darkest time in Argentina, how i can't be mad at them? .

Galtieri was a drunk and a criminal and is probably burning in hell right now, doesn't change the fact that i can't forgive what happened in that time.


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 8, 2013)

mr_shadow said:


> Given all the obvious anger against her, may I ask how she kept getting elected?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TFx9u1t1LY[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> Considering the fact that in that time Britain had the best naval force in the entire world against Argentina who had teenagers with almost no training, yeah very fair , Britain will be forever a Pirate country in the eyes of Argentina... always.



That's true, and props for sinking the Sheffield with useless French garbage missiles. 

You're still in the wrong, however. You start a war you gotta be prepared to finish it.

Vietnam was a defensive war aimed at keeping the South Vietnamese, most of whom had no desire to be ruled by the North, free and independant.
But America gave up, so to this day most people think America "invaded" Vietnam or something and justice prevailed. 

If Argentina had prevailed in the Falklands conflict the British would be, to this day, telling themselves "we had no business trying to hold on to our Empire anyway" to make themselves feel better about losing to teenagers with no training.

Dem's the breaks.


----------



## Smiley (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> Maybe you should try electing your leaders or something?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> You mean killing almost 300 lives when the ARA General Belgrano was attacked outside the Maritime Exclusion Zone ? Ugh.



Those were soldiers in a war. Maritime Exclusion Zones are meant to protect neutral and civilian ships, not to be used as strategic features of a war zone.

And really, how the fuck can you complain? If you invade land that isn't yours (and never has been at any point in history), the country you invade will respond. People die in a war. If Argentina didn't want their soldiers to die, all they had to do was not start the war.


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 8, 2013)

Linkdarkside said:


> Reagan was diagnosed whit Alzheimers in 1994.



Many who had worked with Reagan told anecdotes that suggested he had it while president. It just wasn't diagnosed until later.

Some of his aides found his "forgetfulness" troubling. His mind was already deteriorating.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Chile must be very sad about this... .


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

>implying both these mind-numbingly bad presidents won't receive tremendous adulation upon their deaths, with their gross incompetence relegated to "controversies" during their eulogies.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2013)

KBL said:


> It was the darkest time in Argentina, how i can't be mad at them? .
> 
> Galtieri was a drunk and a criminal and is probably burning in hell right now, doesn't change the fact that i can't forgive what happened in that time.



So why should the British ever forgive Argentina for invading their territory if you can't even forgive them for exercising their right to self-defense?


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> >implying both these mind-numbingly bad presidents won't receive tremendous adulation upon their deaths, with their gross incompetence relegated to "controversies" during their eulogies.



Don't see how Obama would unless you're a white supremacist of Rush Limbaugh who will probably keel over and die before Barry.


----------



## Ben Tennyson (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> >implying both these mind-numbingly bad presidents won't receive tremendous adulation upon their deaths, with their gross incompetence relegated to "controversies" during their eulogies.



Obama is a awesome president.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

Mael said:


> Don't see how Obama would



would... receive tremendous adulation? I know, it's hard to imagine. But people forget how bad presidents were pretty fast.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Apr 8, 2013)

Well at least Bush comedic reel will be hilarious .


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 8, 2013)

Someone on twitter just reminded me that she called Nelson Mandela a "terrorist" and supported the apartheid South African government. 

What a mess of a person she was.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

But i will clear something up as an Argentine first...Thatcher for us was a massive bitch but for the Malvina's war to happen the Iron Lady was not the only one that was needed, there's also the bastards that were in the power in that time... Galtieri, Anaya, Lami Dozo, Astiz and the rest of those bastards.
They needed the war at all cost, they used the people's pasion about the Malvinas to start it, the people were in the street like when we won the World Cup in Mexico 86, they used that passion to start everything... truly sad.


----------



## masamune1 (Apr 8, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1jY5fYjV-U[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 8, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Labour was completely unelectable at the time,  Liberal Democrats were two seperate parties and in the end she won the Falklands war which must have given her a 10% rise in votes (Which can give you up to 30% of seats in parliament).


Spot on. It's similar to how Bush suddenly saw a surge in popularity in the aftermath of 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, despite being a lousy president.


I'll also like to add that the entire popular newspaper media outlets, The Sun, Mail, Telegraph etc etc, who were more influential then they are now were basically in the tank for the Conservatives. They were able to get away with saying some completely outrageous stuff about the opposition. It's no coincidence that Labour were swept into power when Blair was able to get Murdoch's backing through The Sun.


It also didn't help that Michael Foot was perceived as a bit of a loon and Kinnock was ginger and Welsh.



Shinigami Perv said:


> Someone on twitter just reminded me that she called Nelson Mandela a "terrorist" and supported the apartheid South African government.
> 
> What a mess of a person she was.



Then there's the whole Pinochet debacle.


----------



## Smiley (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> >implying both these mind-numbingly bad presidents won't receive tremendous adulation upon their deaths, with their gross incompetence relegated to "controversies" during their eulogies.



I was aiming more toward the implication that lol democracy.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> >implying both these mind-numbingly bad presidents won't receive tremendous adulation upon their deaths, with their gross incompetence relegated to "controversies" during their eulogies.


Herbert Hoover is still ranked 29/44 among presidents. And he actually went about doing some good after his presidency.

Bush is still ranked 34/44.

I can't see him breaking Nixon's 32/44.

Those numbers of course are inflated because we had a ton of really, really bad presidents during the 1800s. What with how so many punted on slavery and botched the reconstruction. Or were otherwise corrupt.



But yeah, given the tide of history, I think it'll probably be far kinder on Obama than Bush.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Those numbers of course are inflated because we had a ton of really, really bad presidents during the 1800s. What with how so many punted on slavery and botched the reconstruction. Or were otherwise corrupt.
> 
> But yeah, given the tide of history, I think it'll probably be far kinder on Obama than Bush.


If you're referencing the post I made the other day, I think I said "worst of the 20th century". If I didn't, I should have. 

Anyway, historians who rank presidents before the impact of their terms in office are fully felt are star-eyed attention whoring ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".). In 2004 Bush was looking like one of the better presidents of the 20th century; (mostly) successfully prosecuted the war on terror, the economy was booming, finally "fixing" Iraq.

Reality hits you hard bro.

The reality of Obama's presidency hasn't been felt yet, but what you're looking at is the objectively least effective America government of the 20th or 21st centuries, the objectively second worst economic downturn ever, the objectively least sustainable budget in history, credit downgrades, a historical precedent for presidential cabinet members personally taking responsibility for mistakes made by the administration (rather than the president himself) and little or no change from Bush-era foreign doctrine.

If you're a social progressive - and we both are - there's some stuff to like about this presidency, but Obama's kind of two-faced there, too. Continuing to enforce DOMA, for instance, and that shit about not funding non-prescription contraception for teenagers, because abortion is fine but god forbid we piss off any parents, think of the children!

Now, you're going to go down that list and say "that wasn't Obama's fault, that wasn't either" but the problem with that is that history doesn't give a darn. The Depression wasn't Hoover's fault, it was Wall Street's; the Iraq War wasn't Bush's fault, it was Cheney's and Rumsfeld's and the CIA's. Watergate was Nixon's but whatever you get the idea.

5/28/13 EDIT: Watergate wasn't Nixon's either. I live and learn!


----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 8, 2013)

My thoughts on her, as a Northerner.

She fucked up all the manufacturing and mining in the country. In other words, she decimated the North of the country and we're still reeling from the clobbering we got from her.

However, I find it utterly reprehensible the way people are hating on her. If you have nothing good to say at least don't be hateful.



Shiftiness said:


> We really won't. Major, Blair, Brown, and even Cameron don't get anything like the hate Thatcher got. And nobody cares about the PMs who came before her.



I think the reaction to Thatcher's death is nothing compared to the reaction we're going to get when Blair dies. It won't just be us and the Argentinians but the entire world that will unfortunately celebrate.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

Also ranking Obama above Clinton isn't even defensible. Not in Heaven or Hell or any alternate universe you care to mention.


----------



## Sasuke_Bateman (Apr 8, 2013)




----------



## Ƶero (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm no fan of the lady but it's kind of douchey to cheer an old lady's death.


----------



## Owl (Apr 8, 2013)




----------



## Sasuke_Bateman (Apr 8, 2013)

I never enjoyed his jokes before but I loved these


----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 8, 2013)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> I never enjoyed his jokes before but I loved these



Even though it's so wrong, I laughed at the Horcrux one.


----------



## E (Apr 8, 2013)

lel


----------



## Huntress (Apr 8, 2013)

Im suprised she lived for so long considering she had an alcohol problem and had dementia and i think some other pretty serious medical problems.


----------



## E (Apr 8, 2013)

the devil got her a pretty good deal, not as good as cheney's obviously


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 8, 2013)

Who in the holy fuck is Baroness Thatcher and why should I give a shit?


----------



## Owl (Apr 8, 2013)

The queen better order a grand coffin cause I think she might be next.


----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 8, 2013)

"Shion" said:


> Who in the holy fuck is Baroness Thatcher and why should I give a shit?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 8, 2013)

Fucking lol @ horcrux


----------



## White (Apr 8, 2013)

*One of the worst most vilified politicians. Killing thousands of unarmed Argentinians, leading a crusade against the working class of the north of England. No sympathy at all.*


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 8, 2013)

Oh... So I _should_ have a shit, and the shit I should give is to be _happy_ that her soulless cunt has left this world?

Good.


----------



## Owl (Apr 8, 2013)

Snarl said:


> *One of the worst most vilified politicians. Killing thousands of unarmed Argentinians, leading a crusade against the working class of the north of England. No sympathy at all.*



You forgot about the milk. Do you have any idea how sad the school kids were when they found out that they have to bring their own milk to school?


----------



## White (Apr 8, 2013)

*In a nutshell, but that doesnt even begin to do justice the atrocity that was that woman. *


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 8, 2013)

I shall celebrate her death by flaunting around naked in the streets.


----------



## abc123 (Apr 8, 2013)

Snarl said:


> *One of the worst most vilified politicians. Killing thousands of unarmed Argentinians, leading a crusade against the working class of the north of England. No sympathy at all.*


Uh huh. So when did Thatcher kill 'thousands' of 'unarmed' Argentinians? Pray tell.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 8, 2013)

No Sympathy from me either. England was supposed to resign to all of their colonies in a threat signed on the 40's. 

Maybe the Islands did not belong to Argentina, but they had even LESS of a reason to belong to England. Which is at the other fucking side of the world.

Also England invaded the Falklands not the other way around. Argentina was a fool to stand against England anyways, there was just no freaking way that it could had ended up in a different manner.


----------



## abc123 (Apr 8, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> No Sympathy from me either. England was supposed to resign to all of their colonies in a threat signed on the 40's.
> 
> Maybe the Islands did not belong to Argentina, but they had even LESS of a reason to belong to England. Which is at the other fucking side of the world.
> 
> Also England invaded the Falklands not the other way around.


This post... so much fail. I can't take it seriously.


----------



## Abz (Apr 8, 2013)

one of the most controversial leaders of modern times... you either like her or you hate her...because opinion got polarized .... My dad was a miner and was made redundant because of her and her government a long with many , many others... but he is still indifferent about her even though there are a lot of people out there who lost their jobs because of the strangulation on industrialization and coal mining....but there were people who benefited from Thatchers regimes.
Though even her own government started to turn against her and she resigned

Yes she did prove in society that a woman can lead a country...

I think i'll go watch some '*Spitting Image*', possibly one of the best shows that has been on British TV....shame it's not around today, because that would have been one hell of a show to watch.

There are some clips on youtube of Maggy from that show ..... 

Thatcher "I'll have a stake please"
Waiter " And what about vegetables?"
Thatcher " Oh..they'll have the same as me"

*Looks at the cabinet* 



[YOUTUBE]dZ_0MYwilHo[/YOUTUBE]

This show


----------



## Chelydra (Apr 8, 2013)

I guess I can take from the general consensus here that starting a war of aggression is justified as long as your not a western power and if your a western power defending your possessions is WRONG even if the people in those territories want to be a part of said western power


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Apr 8, 2013)

Good for Thatcher on standing up to the Argentine invasion of a British Colony.


----------



## Ben Tennyson (Apr 8, 2013)

Rest in piece.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 8, 2013)

Brixton, stand up! 







Bonnie Glasgow! 



[YOUTUBE]xbp3k3rYMs4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 8, 2013)

Another shall be born to replace her.

History will repeat itself.


----------



## KBL (Apr 8, 2013)

Another pic of the news here...

Yeah, we don't like her that much...


----------



## dummy plug (Apr 8, 2013)

condolences to her family


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 8, 2013)

Black Wraith said:


> I think the reaction to Thatcher's death is nothing compared to the reaction we're going to get when Blair dies. It won't just be us and the Argentinians but the entire world that will unfortunately celebrate.



I don't think that's going to be the case at all. Tony Blair passing away won't illicit the same sort of deep emotions that have accompanied Thatcher's death. He simply isn't as decisive figure in British politics.  

Sure there's going to be some exuberation from the militant anti war crowd and the constant anti Britain/USA folks who'll always be plagued with small country syndrome/mentality but the majority will have moved on. Whilst it remains an unpopular decision, it wasn't the most important issue to many - Blair still managed to win an election after that. And if as a I suspect Iraq, continues to progress towards stability and becomes a bastion of democracy & freedom in the Middle East, like other former US occupied countries (South Korea, Japan, Germany etc) I think opinions will gradually start to change about Iraq. 


Furthermore with our current cretins in charge seemingly determined to screw up the economy and subject those less well of to increases in poverty, hardship and inequality (whilst simultaneously helping the rich) I think Blair's period in office will be reflected on rather fondly in the future.



Snarl said:


> *One of the worst most vilified politicians. Killing thousands of unarmed Argentinians, leading a crusade against the working class of the north of England. No sympathy at all.*



Apart from the lie about killing thousands of unarmed Argentinians, I agree with that.

Argentina deserved the complete walloping it got for thinking it could just take the Faklands from us through force. I would have thought that ownage  they received would have taught them a lesson not to mess with us but unfortunately they seem determined to push our buttons again. 

That wasn't an impressive or courageous decision from Thatcher. Blair, Brown ...... heck even Miliband would have done the same thing.


----------



## Blue (Apr 8, 2013)

All these manboys celebrating the death of a woman they were never alive to see in power

It's kind of silly.


----------



## Squeek (Apr 8, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> No Sympathy from me either. England was supposed to resign to all of their colonies in a threat signed on the 40's.
> 
> Maybe the Islands did not belong to Argentina, but they had even LESS of a reason to belong to England. Which is at the other fucking side of the world.
> 
> Also England invaded the Falklands not the other way around. Argentina was a fool to stand against England anyways, there was just no freaking way that it could had ended up in a different manner.



and by your argument Guam and Hawaii do not belong to USA either? or Alaska for that matter.


----------



## White (Apr 8, 2013)

Blue said:


> All these manboys celebrating the death of a woman they were never alive to see in power
> 
> It's kind of silly.




*The effects of what Thatchers done can still be felt and seen throughout my entire city. I dont think thats a silly reason not to dislike her.*


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 8, 2013)

has suddenly jumped into the top 40 singles charts today. At this pace it's probably guaranteed to reach the top ten by Sunday if not higher. 




Now I'm not sitting here celebrating her death, but that would make me  for days...


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 8, 2013)

> Thatcher is remembered as The Iron Lady only because she possessed completely negative traits such as persistent stubbornness and a determined refusal to listen to others.
> 
> Every move she made was charged by negativity; she destroyed the British manufacturing industry, she hated the miners, she hated the arts, she hated the Irish Freedom Fighters and allowed them to die, she hated the English poor and did nothing at all to help them, she hated Greenpeace and environmental protectionists, she was the only European political leader who opposed a ban on the ivory trade, she had no wit and no warmth and even her own cabinet booted her out. She gave the order to blow up The Belgrano even though it was outside of the Malvinas Exclusion Zone—and was sailing AWAY from the islands! When the young Argentinean boys aboard The Belgrano had suffered a most appalling and unjust death, Thatcher gave the thumbs-up sign for the British press.
> 
> ...




Dayyyuuuum


----------



## abc123 (Apr 8, 2013)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Dayyyuuuum


An Argentinian sympathiser will obviously show bias against Thatcher.
Edit: Snarl, your neg...


----------



## Kahvehane (Apr 8, 2013)

This must have been one of those few days when the British Isles weren't overcast and gloomy.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 9, 2013)

Squeek said:


> and by your argument Guam and Hawaii do not belong to USA either? or Alaska for that matter.



Or basically anything they got after Lousianna purchass really.


----------



## Blunt (Apr 9, 2013)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> I never enjoyed his jokes before but I loved these



I lol'd so hard


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 9, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Or basically anything they got after Louisiana purchases really.



We obtained those territories by the ancient laws of conquest and warfare  just like Romans and Huns and Mongols before us


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 9, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> No Sympathy from me either. England was supposed to resign to all of their colonies in a threat signed on the 40's.



The Falklands aren't a colony, they're an overseas territory and have chosen to be that. At no point in history did the native people of the Falklands was to be part of Argentina.



> Maybe the Islands did not belong to Argentina, but they had even LESS of a reason to belong to England. Which is at the other fucking side of the world.



They have plenty of reason to belong to Britain, because the people that live on the island want to be British.



> Also England invaded the Falklands not the other way around. Argentina was a fool to stand against England anyways, there was just no freaking way that it could had ended up in a different manner.



This is like saying Poland invaded Germany at the beginning of WWII, you're not gonna change historic facts just by reversing them. Argentina was indeed foolish to start a war of aggression against another country, at least there we can agree.


----------



## Golden Circle (Apr 9, 2013)

Blue said:


> All these manboys celebrating the death of a woman they were never alive to see in power
> 
> It's kind of silly.


Yeah, because everyone on the internet is under thirty.

Grow up, Blue.


----------



## JH24 (Apr 9, 2013)

Rainbow Dash said:


> Yeah, because everyone on the internet is under thirty.
> 
> Grow up, Blue.



Blue never said only "manboys" were celebrating, but there is a group who does, just as there are older people who do this.


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 9, 2013)

I just looked beyond Thatcher herself and realized how long the Thatcher-Major period was. The Conservatives were in power from 1979 to 1997, or 18 years. Daaaym...

The 12 years of the Reagan-Bush Republicans were impressive too, but this surprised me more since I had no idea...

Granted there have been much longer stints by a single party in democracies. The Social Democrats of my home country Sweden were in power for 40 years 1936-1976. I think the Liberal Democrats of Japan is up there somewhere too.


----------



## Smiley (Apr 9, 2013)

Blue said:


> All these manboys celebrating the death of a woman they were never alive to see in power
> 
> It's kind of silly.



Time to mention Hitler in this thread.


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 9, 2013)

Smiley said:


> Time to mention Hitler in this thread.



You're gonna compare Thatcher to Hitler?


----------



## Blue (Apr 9, 2013)

Rainbow Dash said:


> Yeah, because everyone on the internet is under thirty.
> 
> Grow up, Blue.





JH24 said:


> Blue never said only "manboys" were celebrating, but there is a group who does, just as there are older people who do this.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 9, 2013)

mr_shadow said:


> You're gonna compare Thatcher to Hitler?



He's right, though. Just because you didn't directly suffer from the malice and incompetence of a person doesn't mean you can't dislike them.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 9, 2013)

Hitler comparisons almost always invalidate arguments.


----------



## Smiley (Apr 9, 2013)

Mider T said:


> Hitler comparisons almost always invalidate arguments.



Almost.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 9, 2013)

Ben Tennyson said:


> Rest in *piece*.





1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Another shall be born to replace her.
> 
> History will repeat itself.



I dunno what's worse, you trying to sound deep or using that stupid smiley


----------



## Golden Circle (Apr 9, 2013)

Is that rice tasty? And when you're done thinking that reaction images are meaningful, please let me know.



Blue said:


> Velocity said:
> 
> 
> > My Dad says all she did was screw over socialists, miners and *people who lived in council houses.*
> ...


Haha. Oh boy. Now you're going to tell me that there's nobody here worth mentioning who resembles that remark. Such as me. I'm so unimportant even thought I know for a fact I am smarter, wiser, and more intelligent than you. **


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 9, 2013)

Mider T said:


> I dunno what's worse, you trying to sound deep or using that stupid smiley





Dig deep, strain yourself to _invent reasons_ to criticize seeing as how you lack legitimate ones.  

Which smiley?  This one:  :WOW

:WOW :WOW :WOW


----------



## Mider T (Apr 9, 2013)

>Keeps doing it

Like a child.


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 9, 2013)

Mider T said:


> >Keeps doing it
> 
> Like a child.



<--------------------------------

:WOW :WOW :WOW


----------



## Gilgamesh (Apr 9, 2013)

I like how the people celebrating her death were only little kids or weren't even alive when she was PM

Would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic


----------



## Smiley (Apr 9, 2013)

Gilgamesh said:


> I like how the people celebrating her death were only little kids or weren't even alive when she was PM
> 
> Would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 9, 2013)

That's completely false. The majority of people celebrating her death are definitely pre-1980's people. As for everyone else.. the decimation of an entire social class tends to affect future generations. All of her main policies have been held in place or expanded by successive governments. She certainly would have gone even further in destroying our society if she could have.



That would have ended the National Health Service and free education. Not to diminish the impact of her actual legacy of the infliction of suffering and permanent disintegration of the society she never believed ought to exist. Anyone who doesn't despise her either doesn't know what she is responsible for, is a Tory or has Tory parents. Parties continuing on the weekend up and down the country.


----------



## Petes12 (Apr 9, 2013)

sounds like she was a disaster


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 9, 2013)

Mehdi Hasan making very short shrift of her 'belief in freedom, democracy and liberty'.



Support, and not just in words, for Saddam Hussein, General Suharto, General Zia-ul Haq, General Pinochet, the Saudi totalitarians, apartheid South Africa.. a fucking all-star line-up of some of the most vile and evil regimes in modern history. And a spot of cheerleading for Blair's Iraq War for good measure. Utter disgrace to Britain.


----------



## Jay. (Apr 9, 2013)

> that cher


people though cher died


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 9, 2013)

erictheking said:


> Mehdi Hasan making very short shrift of her 'belief in freedom, democracy and liberty'.
> 
> 
> 
> Support, and not just in words, for Saddam Hussein, General Suharto, General Zia-ul Haq, General Pinochet, the Saudi totalitarians, apartheid South Africa.. a fucking all-star line-up of some of the most vile and evil regimes in modern history. And a spot of cheerleading for Blair's Iraq War for good measure. Utter disgrace to Britain.



Her unwavering support for the apartheid regime in South Africa was particularly embarrassing. We lost a lot of credibility from our allies, especially from the Commonwealth. In all the conferences it was 42 countries angrily against Thatcher on this issue. Thankfully it didn't result in a permanent dissolution of the organisation though at times it seemed like it was heading that way.

She also bitterly opposed the reunification of Germany to add to her foreign policy blunders. Like I said before, her foresight to notice that Gorbachev was a reasonable man and her decision to protect the Faklands mythologised her as a great foreign policy thinker when the opposite was more true.




In other news the Premiership and Football League are not enforcing a mandatory minute's silence. For the best, there would have been a lot of ugly scenes if that had gone through. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22078110


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 9, 2013)

I don't know about 'ugly'.. but visceral.



This genuinely reads like a parody of a middle-class person from the 90's. That rag still surprises me every now and again. I really wish they would've tried it.


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 9, 2013)

Jay. said:


> > that cher
> 
> 
> people though cher died



Doesn't beat when Kim Jong-Il died and people tweeted: "Lil' Kim is dead??? Noooo!!!".

Although "Lil' Kim" would be a neat nickname for Kim Jong-Un given his youth, inexperience and inferiority complex.


----------



## Blue (Apr 9, 2013)

Rainbow Dash said:


> Is that rice tasty? And when you're done thinking that reaction images are meaningful, please let me know.


They are meaningful. They're basically a replacement for body language and facial gestures when not conversing in person, which are vitally important to communicate reaction and mood. Smilies serve the same purpose, but after 7 years I'm a bit worn on the NF bunch.

And yes it's delicious



> Haha. Oh boy. Now you're going to tell me that there's nobody here worth mentioning who resembles that remark. Such as me. I'm so unimportant even thought I know for a fact I am smarter, wiser, and more intelligent than you. I can bring this forum decrepit forum down with administrator access, can you? That's right, you can't.


I can't tell if you're trolling me with this terrible sentence structure and these misspellings or trying to make a point.  < meaningful


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 9, 2013)

Administrator vs Administrator fight


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 9, 2013)

Bellamy The Hyena said:


> Administrator vs Administrator fight



Moooortal Koooombat!!!


----------



## Smiley (Apr 9, 2013)

Except Rainbow Dash is actually just Shang Tsung.


----------



## Velocity (Apr 9, 2013)

What kind of comparison is that? Why does everyone keep comparing Thatcher to freakin' Hitler? One was a Prime Minister for eleven years who, during her tenure, had good foreign policy but generally bad domestic policies and the other is a guy that's arguably the biggest war criminal to have ever lived because he threw the entire world into war and caused the deaths of millions.

I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would try to say "we can bitch about Hitler, so why can't we bitch about Thatcher?".


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 9, 2013)

Velocity said:


> What kind of comparison is that? Why does everyone keep comparing Thatcher to freakin' Hitler? One was a Prime Minister for eleven years who, during her tenure, had good foreign policy but generally bad domestic policies and the other is a guy that's arguably the* biggest war criminal to have ever lived because he threw the entire world into war and caused the deaths of millions.*
> 
> I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would try to say "we can bitch about Hitler, so why can't we bitch about Thatcher?".



I donno if I'd go that far. Western countries use Hitler as the incarnation of evil because we were directly affected by him. But if we look outside our own little box there are other dictators who I think have him beat.

My own estimates:
Biggest body count per capita: Pol Pot

Biggest total body count: Mao

Biggest intentional body count (famines excluded): Mao or Stalin

Most perverse social system: Kim Jong-Il (beats his dad thanks to Songgun)

Most people killed in foreign countries: militarist Japan (Asia more populous than Europe)


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 9, 2013)

Velocity said:


> What kind of comparison is that? Why does everyone keep comparing Thatcher to freakin' Hitler? One was a Prime Minister for eleven years who, during her tenure, *had good foreign policy* but generally bad domestic policies and the other is a guy that's arguably the biggest war criminal to have ever lived because he threw the entire world into war and caused the deaths of millions.
> 
> I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would try to say "we can bitch about Hitler, so why can't we bitch about Thatcher?".


Do you mean 'good' in the sense of absolutely disgraceful? 

No-one is "freakin' comparing" Thatcher to Hitler, they are making an analogy, to justify holding very strong opinions about historical figures. However, Thatcher happens not to be merely an historical figure for British people, since the poisonous influence of her ideology and the impact of the victory of her class war has been so widespread that it is impossible even for children born today to escape it.


----------



## Smiley (Apr 9, 2013)

Velocity said:


> What kind of comparison is that? Why does everyone keep comparing Thatcher to freakin' Hitler? One was a Prime Minister for eleven years who, during her tenure, had good foreign policy but generally bad domestic policies and the other is a guy that's arguably the biggest war criminal to have ever lived because he threw the entire world into war and caused the deaths of millions.
> 
> I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would try to say "we can bitch about Hitler, so why can't we bitch about Thatcher?".



You might as well say that the comparison fails because Margaret didn't have a moustache like Adolf did, or wasn't living in WW2 Germany, so we can't compare them. It doesn't take an immense amount of psychic power to understand that the comparison is between two people who are disliked after their deaths because of their negatively viewed actions, and that the differences you are listing are irrelevant.

Hehe, got to love you silly type of folks who think you're so smart for perpetuating the myth that comparisons to Hitler are automatically wrong, just because it has become popular to discredit them.

Smiley: Hey, this picture of Hitler is kind of like Hitler!

Velocity, Mr Shadow, Mider etc. (in chorus): _OOOH no it isn't! Things can't be like Hitler! Wikipedia says Hitler comparisons are dumb!_

It's funny because Sauf has a similar problem with comparisons, yet even he understands this one.

Pretty soon we'll stop all this pussyfooting around and get straight to the really good claims, like "you can't dislike someone for hurting anyone who is not yourself".


----------



## Plague (Apr 9, 2013)

Celebrating her death seems pretty classless. Even if I disagree with a Liberal Democrat, I wouldn't go out of my way to celebrate or mock their death. Just seems immature and ignorant. It also reflects poorly on your party and people in general. 

To be honest she really didn't seem that bad. Communism should never be viable government.


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 9, 2013)

erictheking said:


> I don't know about 'ugly'.. but visceral.
> 
> 
> 
> This genuinely reads like a parody of a middle-class person from the 90's. That rag still surprises me every now and again. I really wish they would've tried it.



The Daily HeilFail is always good for a few laughs or two.  

With us not having an extremely partisan news channel over here (Adam Boulton & Kay Burley aside Sky News aren't _that _bad), it's our best example of Fox News. Basically a complete joke in terms of a credible and fair news outlet.

The only sad thing is seeing usually sensible people in my neck of the woods (down South), lap up all the sensationalist fear mongering garbage they publish, which in turn forces the Tories to go even further to the right. The recent Philpott story attests to that.  




Velocity said:


> What kind of comparison is that? Why does everyone keep comparing Thatcher to freakin' Hitler? One was a Prime Minister for eleven years who, during her tenure, had good foreign policy but generally bad domestic policies and the other is a guy that's arguably the biggest war criminal to have ever lived because he threw the entire world into war and caused the deaths of millions.
> 
> I can't even begin to comprehend why anyone would try to say "we can bitch about Hitler, so why can't we bitch about Thatcher?".



No one is directly equating Hitler's crimes to Thatcher's crimes. I'm not sure where you're getting that from in this thread.

The point is that disliking people who were active before you were a grown up is perfectly acceptable when there are long term consequences of their actions. Someone who had their granddad murdered by that Nazi's has a right to be angry at Hitler. Likewise the children who grew up with the long term impact of Thatcher's policies, seeing their fathers out of work and abandoned by the state, struggling to put food on the table and maintain a basic standard of living have a right to be angry at Thatcher. 

The social deprivation and extreme hardships she inflicted and utter contempt she had towards low income working class people will forever be a blight to the Conservative party. It's also something that'll make them winning a strong majority in a national election very difficult in foreseeable future.

In any case, I think the biggest testament to Thatcher is how much of a political liability she was to the Tories in the 90's and 00's. And apart from a few years prior to her death and onset of worsening health she was shunned by most politicians who realised this. 

And she didn't have good foreign policy. Her catalogue of failures (highlighted already) outweigh any achievements she may have had. The Soviet Union would have collapsed with or without her, she and Reagan just accelerated the process and defending British territory overseas was a political no brainer.


----------



## mlc818 (Apr 9, 2013)

I can't say that I'm happy about it, because it's never a happy event when someone dies.  But she got a long life, with a lot better care than most people could expect at the end of their lives with dementia.  A good 90% of her life was spared the harm that she did to so many other people with her social and economic policies, and people need to acknowledge that that's why so many hate her.

Far sadder than her death is the fact that she never came to any realization that her politics are flawed, and thus couldn't "make amends" by speaking out against the effects of her policies on Britain (and other parts of the world).  So she will likely always be remembered as an enemy of the people.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 9, 2013)

If it wasn't against the law to have propagandist news channels we would have a parallel to Fox News, Murdoch has been lobbying governments for decades for that. 

I came across another ridiculous Mail article:



Even the Mail's audience couldn't stomach this shit. All the best rated comments are criticising the writer and worst rated agreeing with him.



Plague said:


> Celebrating her death seems pretty classless. Even if I disagree with a Liberal Democrat, I wouldn't go out of my way to celebrate or mock their death. Just seems immature and ignorant. It also reflects poorly on your party and people in general.
> 
> *To be honest she really didn't seem that bad. Communism should never be viable government.*


You can't just babble 'Communism' and be taken seriously chap, we're not American.

The celebration of death isn't awfully nice, no, but people certainly didn't do so because of mere political disagreements. Tory politicians die all the time, no-one tends to give a toss. She is a symbol of many things, and her death is an occasion: for staunch Tories on the one hand, and for everyone who hates her on the other. I have no idea why people are surprised either.. people, even in the public eye, have been vocal about celebrating her coming death for years and years.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 9, 2013)




----------



## Black Wraith (Apr 9, 2013)

*Margaret Thatcher: why is she still so demonised?*



> It is impossible to imagine any other politician arousing such a degree of public hatred
> 
> Many time-honoured social conventions have been discarded in recent times in our headlong rush to demonstrate how modern and relaxed we have all become, but we still, more or less, stick to the maxim of not speaking ill of the dead. At least not in the immediate aftermath of their demise, when their families grief is still raw.
> 
> ...




Even though this is from the Telegraph I do think that they have some good points.

Let me quote myself:


Black Wraith said:


> My thoughts on her, as a Northerner.
> 
> She fucked up all the manufacturing and mining in the country. In other words, she decimated the North of the country and we're still reeling from the clobbering we got from her.
> 
> However, I find it utterly reprehensible the way people are hating on her. If you have nothing good to say at least don't be hateful.


----------



## "Shion" (Apr 9, 2013)

Hey Mintaka, can't someone have an opinion? 

Remove the tampon from your vagina please.


----------



## Golden Circle (Apr 9, 2013)

"Shion" said:


> Hey Mintaka, can't someone have an opinion?
> 
> Remove the tampon from your vagina please.


That's crude, man.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 10, 2013)

> However, I find it utterly reprehensible the way people are hating on her. If you have nothing good to say at least don't be hateful.


I disagree.

As the Guardian put it, "respect for the dead" is used as a means with which the supporters can try and whitewash a person's history.

A person's death should cause a reflection of both good and bad. And boy did she have a lot of bad.


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 10, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> I disagree.
> 
> As the Guardian put it, "respect for the dead" is used as a means with which the supporters can try and whitewash a person's history.
> 
> A person's death should cause a reflection of both good and bad. And boy did she have a lot of bad.



Exactly. As long as it's done with a degree of dignity and civility and doesn't descend into juvenile name calling, then there's nothing wrong with reflecting badly on a person upon their death. 

It's funny that you talk about whitewashing  - there has already been a concerted effort over the past few days from prominent Tories like Boris and Dave as well as the right wing media to define her as the "greatest British Prime Minister after Churchill" ..... which is quite frankly laughable. Clement Attlee and David Lloyd George would have something to say about that. 


I really hope that people don't end up falling for this last minute attempt to palliate her legacy. It isn't helped by people's ignorance and rampant bias on this topic.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 10, 2013)

Bellamy The Hyena said:


> Exactly. As long as it's done with a degree of dignity and civility and doesn't descend into juvenile name calling, then there's nothing wrong with reflecting badly on a person upon their death.
> 
> It's funny that you talk about whitewashing  - there has already been a concerted effort over the past few days from prominent Tories like Boris and Dave as well as the right wing media to define her as the "greatest British Prime Minister after Churchill" ..... which is quite frankly laughable. Clement Attlee and David Lloyd George would have something to say about that.
> 
> ...


Doesn't surprise me in the least. Considering the concerted effort to beatify Ronald Reagan by the American right.


----------



## Blue (Apr 10, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Doesn't surprise me in the least. Considering the concerted effort to beatify Ronald Reagan by the American right.



That's Maddow inside your ass talking out of it again.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 10, 2013)

Not really. St Ronald is a common term on the left to mock the right's idolatry for him.

And you were older than I so you surely remember the media's coverage of his death.

Also


----------



## Island (Apr 10, 2013)

mr_shadow said:


> I donno if I'd go that far. Western countries use Hitler as the incarnation of evil because we were directly affected by him. But if we look outside our own little box there are other dictators who I think have him beat.
> 
> [...]


Body count isn't as relevant as impact. Adolf Hitler's actions were the catalyst for the deadliest war in human history and the total transformation of western civilization. Although individuals such as Mao Zedong were important, they didn't have the kind of impact that somebody like Adolf Hitler had. Mao Zedong transformed China and impacted a billion people, but China is comparably small (in both population and size) when compared all the people and places affected by World War II. You're looking at the devastation of Europe, the collapse of the British and French Empires, decolonization of Africa, East Asia, India, and the Middle East, the rise of the US and USSR as superpowers, the start of the Cold War, and so on. Although he may not have caused them directly, his actions (namely starting World War II) were the catalyst that hastened many of these things and brought about such sudden and abrupt changes.

Being responsible for both a World War and all of that tends to make somebody more infamous than the local dictator from down the street, especially when most of that stuff I mentioned (the good stuff, at least) could and probably would have been accomplished without genocide, mass killing, and war.

@The Rest of the Topic:

The comparison to Hitler is relevant because Thatcher impacted the United Kingdom in a way that it isn't necessary to have seen her do it.

In fact, you don't really need to be alive for something to see that it wasn't quite such a good idea. Anyone would tell you that the Great Purge wasn't a very nice thing to do and that Joseph Stalin wasn't a very nice guy for making it happen. They don't need to be alive during the time to have seen that, just an understanding of cause and effect.

As for Margaret Thatcher herself, eh. Anyone as backwards and conservative as her doesn't have my respect, but she wasn't all _that_ relevant to me, so I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.


----------



## Blue (Apr 10, 2013)

Sunuvmann said:


> Not really. St Ronald is a common term on the left to mock the right's idolatry for him.
> 
> And you were older than I so you surely remember the media's coverage of his death.
> 
> Also







etc etc etc

Obama bin laden is a common term on the right. Doesn't mean it's not fucktarded.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 10, 2013)

Not sure your point with your link.

My point was members of the right have tried to name as much shit as possible after him.



> Ronald Reagan Highway
> 
> Ohio State Route 126
> U.S. Route 14 in Illinois
> ...



And that's apples and oranges. Obama Bin Laden is insinuating like Bin Laden he's a terrorist. St Reagan/St Ronald/etc. is mocking the idolatry of him on the right.

No greater evidence is needed than looking at how often his holiness is invoked in a given republican presidential debate.


----------



## Ezekial (Apr 10, 2013)

As a person, I feel sorry for her and her family, but her attitude and policies were disgusting, thus overall, i'm glad she died.


----------



## Suigetsu (Apr 10, 2013)

Rothwell said:


> This post... so much fail. I can't take it seriously.



I cant take your reply seriously either.

If U.S. invades its wrong. And if England invades it's cool?

Fck that shit. You signed a fucking treaty with the U.S. You are not supposed to have colonies no more.
But no one gives a shit because no one cant stop you.

fuck this shit, I dont care anymore. Good riddance anyway.


----------



## Island (Apr 10, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> You are not supposed to have colonies no more.


I'm interested as to which treaty you're referring to. The United States pushed for the decolonization of the British and French Empires but never told either state to expel territories that wanted to remain part of their mother countries.

The whole thing with decolonization was that colonies that _wanted_ independence were granted such.

The people of the Falkland Islands, recognized British citizens, _want_ to remain part of the United Kingdom. It doesn't matter if the Falkland Islands are in the South Atlantic or on Mars; the people of the Falkland Islands have a right to self-determination, and they choose to be part of the United Kingdom.


----------



## Kanki (Apr 10, 2013)

I love how everyone suddenly pretends to like her. I wasn't born when she was PM but according to literally everyone I know, she was a fucking bitch who wanted the rich to get richer and the poor to suffer. One of the most hated politicians ever.


----------



## Shakar (Apr 11, 2013)




----------



## Toby (Apr 11, 2013)

Suigetsu said:


> No Sympathy from me either. England was supposed to resign to all of their colonies in a threat signed on the 40's.
> 
> Maybe the Islands did not belong to Argentina, but they had even LESS of a reason to belong to England. Which is at the other fucking side of the world.



Any such treaty, as naive as it sounds, would not apply in the course of politics today as these issues are settled by international law. Diplomats do not cite treaties that predate the establishment of international law, unless they were codified and adopted into the code of law itself. Bases and colonies were handed over quite peacefully by the British. The point you are trying  to make is therefore irrelevant.

Almost all British military bases were handed over to the USA as part of the agreement between the UK and US to develop a long term military alliance after WWII. That is why the Americans have bases around the globe. These bases were not released into the wild in other words. The US wanted them and the British gave them up. 

Colonies were surrounded on a case by case basis. There was no agreement to surrender territory that wanted British rule. India wanted independence and Britain could no longer rule it, so they let it go. However, they wanted to remain part of the Commonwealth, and they are still a member to this day. The point is, their choice was respected. 

Falklands? Not the same result, but the same function. The people wanted British rule, in fact they are Britons in terms of ancestry, and this was easy to accommodate for the British government as there was no just territorial dispute over independence _among _the island settlers. The Commonwealth is the organization that helps administer this relationship, and grants other favours to members. There is no treaty that prohibits any of these associations. They are not illegal. They are rare, but we call them non-self governing territories. Look at Greenland. It controls domestic policy, but Denmark runs its foreign policy for them.



Suigetsu said:


> Also England invaded the Falklands not the other way around



Nope. This is just not true. I don't want to say you are lying, but you ought to know better.

*Nobody lived on the island before the English settlers came*, and the second group to arrive were Argentinian soldiers, who opened fire on civilians and impounded their vessels. There is just no crumb of bread to serve the Argentinian argument after that point because they declared the war, had no just cause, and killed settlers on the islands. Not to mention the Argentinians who were killed on the mainland by the brutal regime. Not a good start for making claims in international law. It weakened their standing, and as you might infer from my tone, I think Kirchner has a similar standing due to her government's meddling with the society and media of Argentina.



> Critics of Kirchner's administration charged it with corruption, crony capitalism, falsification of public statistics, harassment of Argentina's independent media and use of the tax agency as a censorship tool.[3][4][5][6][7][8]



Just by publishing the real rate of inflation in Argentina you might end up being arrested by the regime. I mean really. Even if they had a case, this speaks volumes about what kind of government we are dealing with. Would the UK deal with these guys? Not on your life. Better than fascists? Sure, but still not democratic and accountable to the people. Speaking of the Argentinian people, what do they want? What rights do they have?

All the evidence the Argentinians have to their cause are treaties signed by the Spanish empire, which itself took the land by evicting native tribes. By your logic, Argentina should be disbanded. No sir. That's not practical or fair to the current residents, who matter a lot. Moreover, Argentina is not Spain, and has no right to "inherit" their land that now has settlers on it.

At this point in human history, law becomes more relevant, particularly those regarding human rights.

The most basic international rights are the rights to freedom from persecution, oppression, and the rights of self-determination of ethnic groups. That latter point is relevant here, as is the right to freedom from oppression, which is why the UN Security Council demands any negotiations over the islands respect the interests of its inhabitants. They make this point due to the history of Argentinian aggression over the islands' sovereignty, but they cannot win the dispute without Falklander support 

The Falklanders are such a group, and their decision is to remain British. Argentina has to respect this, or break the law - once again! - in order to take the islands.

There is however no legal recourse to old, dusty documents about a single Spaniard raising a flag on a pair of islands where the only witnesses were a bunch of seagulls. Because nobody but fishermen actually settled down there permanently, no group has more just claim over the islands than its inhabitants.

Also, I really think Kirchner is a bad president, and she is just using this issue as a way to distract from her incompetency and corruption within the government.


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 11, 2013)

So while Thatcher can hardly be condemned for defending the Falklands, she does bear some responsibility for the war, and the hundreds of deaths: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20800447

If she had taken the prospect of an Argentinian invasion more seriously, she could have made her intention to not surrender the Falklands clear, using communication through diplomats, and by perhaps not keeping those ship movements a secret. (Of course, I'm not suggesting that she should have given away the position of two frigates and a submarine, merely announcing that a naval taskforce had been sent to the South Atlantic would probably have been sufficient.)


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 11, 2013)

^She also lowered the Falklands defenses when the military advisers said it would make the Argentinians seem like it was an invitation to invade.


----------



## Bellamy The Hyena (Apr 11, 2013)

Shiftiness said:


> So while Thatcher can hardly be condemned for defending the Falklands, she does bear some responsibility for the war, and the hundreds of deaths: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20800447
> 
> If she had taken the prospect of an Argentinian invasion more seriously, she could have made her intention to not surrender the Falklands clear, using communication through diplomats, and by perhaps not keeping those ship movements a secret. (Of course, I'm not suggesting that she should have given away the position of two frigates and a submarine, merely announcing that a naval taskforce had been sent to the South Atlantic would probably have been sufficient.)



As much as I dislike Thatcher I think that's being very unreasonable to attach any responsibility at all to her for the Argentinian invasion and its consequences . It sounds very much of a rapist blaming the victim for wearing enticing clothes ..... *"she was asking for it". *

She could have indeed made some wiser decisions perhaps to  deter Argentina but ultimately the *entire *blame lies with the Argentinian leaders who knew it was unacceptable to invade a foreign country who was posing them no harm, no matter the proximity to them. 

Toby's post above is pretty much spot on. The Islanders have a right to self determination and they have made it abundantly clear several times they want to remain part of Britain. The Argentinians can continue to wail, cry, cling on to their anti UK beliefs and blame us for them being a small irrelevant country as much as they want to - it's not going to change anything. The real ironic thing is that all their actions have done is lead to more Pro British sentiment on the Island. If they weren't so hostile and petty maybe they Islanders would have naturally turned towards Argentina (see Hong Kong). And unlike Argentina we aren't as emotionally attached to the island as they seemed to be - if the Islanders wanted to be annexed to Argentina we would easily be prepared to let them. 

I'm confident that most genuine neutral parties in this dispute who don't bear any anti British feelings, agree with our stance on this issue, which should tell the Argentinians what they need to know.


In serious news, has risen up to number five in the UK charts already. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...llowing-margaret-thatchers-death-8566042.html

It's on track to hit number one by Sunday. That's going to give the BBC and other singles charts countdown shows a headache. Looks like I'm going to be  for days.


----------



## Shiftiness (Apr 11, 2013)

Bellamy The Hyena said:


> As much I dislike Thatcher I think that's being very unreasonable to attach any responsibility at all to her for the Argentinian invasion and its consequences . It sounds very much of a rapist blaming the victim for wearing enticing clothes ..... *"she was asking for it". *



It's really not, she wasn't the victim in this, she's the bystander who hears a guy say "I'm gonna rape 'er lol" and doesn't do anything. No that's wrong. She's the police woman who hears a guy say  "I'm gonna rape 'er lol" and doesn't do anything.



> She could have indeed made some wiser decisions perhaps to deter Argentina but ultimately the entire blame lies with the Argentinian leaders who knew it was unacceptable to invade a foreign country who was posing them no harm, no matter the proximity to them.



Perhaps calling her 'responsible' was wrong, but the fact remains that had she not been so naive, it's likely the war would not have happened. The Falklanders have the right to expect to be protected by the British military if we discover that they may come under attack from another nation, we discovered that they may come under attack, and let it happen.


----------



## vagnard (Apr 16, 2013)

I certainly didn't cry. She was friend of dictators and defended their methods while they belonged to the right wing.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 16, 2013)

Main reason why she shouldn't even have the ceremonial funeral and is not even close to the best post WW2 PM.

Hell I would put Attlee as the best PM since the office of PM was created (which was actually early 1900s)


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 16, 2013)

She's one of the worst PMs ever in my opinion. People go on and on about how significant she was, her influence, defining an era - but it's not fucking difficult to tear things down is it? Substantively, her legacy consisted of not much more than crushing workers down to the bone, redistributing wealth to a smaller minority of elites and installing a few ticking time-bombs on the economy in the process - all in only 3 terms, and with only the entire media and police force at her command. Brave Woman. 

The inundation of eulogies in the media, newspaper, radio, TV, everything, day after day in London has been very unrepresentative. The least we ought to have expected would've been for certain so-called Labour people to refrain from worshiping her, but I can't be surprised.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 16, 2013)

^ Funny thing was every other Western European democracy was going through all the same issues Britain was at the same time and near enough all took a more "leftish/Liberal" approach to it and look where they are now.  France and Germany are in reality light years ahead of us with public services, industry and they didn't even destroy their coal industry either.


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 16, 2013)

That's spot on - it only takes a cursory look at history to nullify the "there was no alternative" argument yet this guff is parroted again and again, even in hindsight. The idea of withdrawing subsidy from industry was not even consistently followed by her government, viz. farming; it was specifically, and later by admission intentionally implemented with zeal against the industries holding the core of the organised working-classes. Labour were offering economically credible alternatives at the time (plural), on the one hand pointing to the solutions on the continent and on the other offering genuinely fresh ideas, that would have undoubtedly prevented the banking collapse for a start. The quite serious struggle within the Labour Party turned out to decisively work in the Conservatives' favour.

As to that matter of her winning elections, she was _tremendously_ unpopular just months before her war, and all the evidence shows she would not have been re-elected but for the media-driven jingoism following it, along with, crucially, the SDP break-off that literally split the opposition vote in half.

Putting football differences aside, this had me laughing. The fucking conga


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 16, 2013)

Let's be honest Maggie did everything she could to try to kill English football.  She took Hysel and made as a English only did wrong on that night (When TV footage show both sides went at it and Juve fan brings a gun into the ground) and basically forced UEFA's hand in banning English clubs by basically banning them first.  She helped the police cover up Hillsborough.

It would be like Cameron today striking out everything at Manchester United just so he could attack football (Since Liverpool then were the biggest club and the one that represented football the most in the world from England).


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 17, 2013)

Add to that the pathetic, spiteful ID card scheme, and her wanting to force England to pull out from the 1982 World Cup in 'support' of the Falklands war. The Murdochized spectacle of the Premiership is a lot more palatable for politicians to talk up nowadays, but they all knew no-one would fully respect a minute's silence for that woman's death last week. Hopefully the tidal wave of weeping for the Dear Leader passes after the funeral today.


----------



## Chappz316 (Apr 17, 2013)

I haven't stepped in on the thatcher debate because i was only born in the year she stepped down as leader of the tories.

I have one thing to ask her critics and that is why aren't you talking about inflation?


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2013)

You can curb inflation without wiping out industries and giving handouts to the rich.

Any monkey with a central bank can curb inflation.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 17, 2013)

In my opinion, she did do some good (like making Britain richer, reduced trade union power - which is good when you look at why - and set the environment for the 'Big Bang' to occur in London). 

Aside from things like that, I wouldn't say she was great. She wasn't a particularly good PM, but you would be very wrong if you just asserted that she was bad for Britain. That she brought nothing positive. Well I guess it depends on perspective, and likely on your ideals (likely to be formed by your background/social status).

However from an economical stand point you'll find it easier to compliment her (though I understand that can be used against her in light of certain events). Socially, well that will honestly depend on your background, and obviously your ideals. 

She's like marmite, you'll either love her or hate her: ultimately determining on how you'll view her and the policies she advocated and supported.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 17, 2013)

Chappz316 said:


> I haven't stepped in on the thatcher debate because i was only born in the year she stepped down as leader of the tories.
> 
> I have one thing to ask her critics and that is why aren't you talking about inflation?



Because it has nothing to do with her,  ALL of western europe was in the same crisis.  ALL OF IT including West Germany, France, Scandinavian and low countries.

And what happened.  They all got out of the issues faster than the UK, they are in a better position even now and they did it with a more humane approach which did not include the over the top privitization and the lay offs you saw in the UK.

Now unless humans in Europe are 100% different to humans in the UK you can tell that in effect Maggie wasn't that good at all.


----------



## Toby (Apr 17, 2013)

She doesn't deserve a state funeral, and what they are doing for her now is basically a quasi-state funeral, all the same function but not in name.

When they sent Churchill down the Thames, the cranes bowed. If they put Thatcher down the river, they should be as idle and lifeless as they were after her disastrous policies took effect. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In my opinion, she did do some good (like making Britain richer, reduced trade union power - which is good when you look at why - and set the environment for the 'Big Bang' to occur in London).
> 
> Aside from things like that, I wouldn't say she was great. She wasn't a particularly good PM, but you would be very wrong if you just asserted that she was bad for Britain. That she brought nothing positive. Well I guess it depends on perspective, and likely on your ideals (likely to be formed by your background/social status).
> 
> ...



To be fair, you could have had both. A richer Britain with unions, a manufacturing sector, AND the Big Bang. There was no need to trade off manufacturing for services. It seemed like a good policy at the time because of the hype economists presented about a service economy. But there was absolutely no reason to experiment with the economy at that scale, and by the time unemployment was over 1 million Britons, Thatcher should have changed her policies.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't blame the Tories for this. In fact among her cabinet ministers, not all agreed with the Monetarist policies and the harsh tactics against unemployment. The incredibly low approval ratings were confirmation of Thatcher's failure, and that is why the Tories felt no shame stabbing her in the back. 

The foreign policy decisions to defend the Falklands etc. would have been made by any British PM at the time, in fact, since Thatcher was the one who cut the defense budget like a masochist barber. You all know this picture, right?



Well that big boy was in the chopyard when Argentina invaded.

I think Britain had to give up on its ambitions to remain an empire, but it did not have to send the carriers to the yards. Keeping a mobile navy is incredibly valuable and allows the RN to help out with humanitarian missions as well.


----------



## Chappz316 (Apr 17, 2013)

Nemesis said:


> Because it has nothing to do with her,  ALL of western europe was in the same crisis.  ALL OF IT including West Germany, France, Scandinavian and low countries.
> 
> And what happened.  They all got out of the issues faster than the UK, they are in a better position even now and they did it with a more humane approach which did not include the over the top privitization and the lay offs you saw in the UK.
> 
> Now unless humans in Europe are 100% different to humans in the UK you can tell that in effect Maggie wasn't that good at all.



Can you back that up? Googled german and french inflation rates didn't touch double digit figures, but in the uk late 1970's inflation was touching 20%. 

Under thatcher the bank of england had its sight's set on cutting inflation and did so effectively.



> You can curb inflation without wiping out industries and giving handouts to the rich.
> 
> Any monkey with a central bank can curb inflation.



By doing what? Raising interest rates and crushing any chance of home ownership or entrepeneurship not to mention whole industries worth of small and medium sized businesses.


----------



## Toby (Apr 17, 2013)

Chappz316 said:


> By doing what? Raising interest rates and crushing any chance of home ownership or entrepeneurship not to mention whole industries worth of small and medium sized businesses.



... That's precisely what Thatcher did.



> She increased interest rates to slow the growth of the money supply and thereby lower inflation,[77] introduced cash limits on public spending, and reduced expenditure on social services such as education and housing.[78]


----------



## Shinigami Perv (Apr 17, 2013)

Amanda Thatcher, granddaughter of the baroness. She's at college in the US.



I know this is wrong but...


----------



## Deleted member 84471 (Apr 17, 2013)

Did she even succeed in slowing the growth of the money supply as that excerpt suggests? Certainly not in her first term, when her economic policy took root and had its most immediate destructive impact of plunging Britain into recession and increasing the unemployment rate by 140%. The money supply continued to grow at a faster rate, and inflation zoomed up and down regardless. 

Inflation was back into double-digits (and Britain back into another Thatcher recession) by the time she was kicked out of office.


----------



## Vasto Lorde King (Apr 18, 2013)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Her grave is soon to become a permanent dance floor/urinal for all right minded people.



Hmm it seems that Misses Thatcher was kind of a dick. I'm from the Netherlands and also on the everydal journal I hear people celebrating her death in a negative way.

This is just a question in general it's not really pointed at you. What did Maragaret thathcher do for her to be hated like that?


----------

