# Shisui Vs Itachi



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]3S-1R2SGfUQ[/YOUTUBE]

Location: Narudo Vs Neji
knowledge: manga
distanceL 25 m
mindset: IC

Shisui can use his feats from the game. His hype of being the strongest Genjutsu user in the Uichiha applies here, and so is his reputation about his speed. He also can use the Susanoo obviously... 

who do you think is the more likely to win?


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2014)

I think Itachi's peak speed and genjutsu skill are superior to Shisui, who was known as the best genjutsu user before Itachi reached maturity, plus Itachi has faster ninjutsu and more weapon skill.

But with Kotoamatsukami, Shisui obviously wins. Outside of that jutsu, Itachi surpassed Shisui.​


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I think Itachi's peak speed and genjutsu skill are superior to Shisui, who was known as the best genjutsu user before Itachi reached maturity, plus Itachi has faster ninjutsu and more weapon skill.​



...why would Itachi be faster than Shisui _of the Shunshin?_

Also, Itachi's ninjutsu speed is only superior when talking Kage Bunshin, which is something Shisui doesn't have anyway.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...why would Itachi be faster than Shisui _of the Shunshin?_
> 
> Also, Itachi's ninjutsu speed is only superior when talking Kage Bunshin, which is something Shisui doesn't have anyway.



Itachi's hand seal speed is top tier and kakashi couldn't even follow.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi's hand seal speed is top tier and kakashi couldn't even follow.



Kakashi couldn't follow Itachi's clone creation speed, right?

Thus, the: 



> Also, Itachi's ninjutsu speed is only superior when talking Kage Bunshin


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi couldn't follow Itachi's clone creation speed, right?
> 
> Thus, the:



Kakashi saw the clone in the nick of time. I'm talking about when Itachi distracted kakashi with the shuriken, and the used 1 handed seals for the suiton which kakashi talks about not being able to follow even with the sharingan hence his blocking with suiton wall


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2014)

Oh that.

Yeah, that's not going to mater because there isn't any water around, unless he can do that with Grand Fireball too.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 7, 2014)

I think Shisui always held a slight edge over Itachi.
If we're talking about Prime Shisui, I think he'd be equal or slightly better than Prime Itachi.

Outside of Mangekyou, Shisui seems to have a great flicker and was called the strongest of their entire clan until his death (according to game footage); he clearly held back against Danzou w/ Root, as well.


----------



## crisler (Sep 7, 2014)

Oonoki couldn't believe Deidara got killed by Sasuke, and in fact Sasuke always had the upperhand during their battle. And obito also helped Deidara. Some shinobis have no named reputation, likely Itachi and some akatuski members.

Shunshin no Shisui, we don't know the extent of his speed, but only that he's fast. We've got many fast people...and apparently Gai doesn't have a famous nickname, does he? despite him being uberfast and uberstrong in his 8th gate. Kakashi has a nickname for copy ninja, but i'm pretty sure he's not that significantly better than any other uchiha members with the sharingan. Nor is 'copying' the best of what kakashi has.

Plus, Itachi was always hidden in the shadows that even Nagato admitted. Going by reputation is unfair, though I wonder what counters Itachi might have against koto...besides using kage bunshins.


----------



## Sadgoob (Sep 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...why would Itachi be faster than Shisui _of the Shunshin?_



Because Itachi has an exceptionally fast shunshin himself. Even in the video Hussein is granting Shisui feats in, Itachi's flicker is what saved Shisui, and Itachi used two jutsu in conjunction with it.

There's no sense in using reputation as a sole argument, because Itachi's reputation has never matched his actual ability, hence Asuma stating that he'd kill Itachi along with Kisame.

Instead, I just consider that Shisui was Itachi's mentor, and that if 13-year-old Itachi wasn't quite as fast or talented in genjutsu as Shisui, then he certainly reached that point after a few more years.

Based on what? Based on Ao's hype of his genjutsu mass-control being beyond any other ninja and Itachi's flicker repeatedly catching Bee off guard, someone who was decent against A & Minato.​


Rocky said:


> Also, Itachi's ninjutsu speed is only superior when talking Kage Bunshin, which is something Shisui doesn't have anyway.



His seals in general are faster, which means his jutsu are performed faster. Clones, fireballs, whatever. Shuriken too.​


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Oh that.
> 
> Yeah, that's not going to mater because there isn't any water around, unless he can do that with Grand Fireball too.



Obviously what the author is trying to get to us is that Itachi's jutsu execution speed is ridiculous seeing as he somehow weaved hand sings faster than the sharingan twice.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> There's no sense in using reputation as a sole argument, because Itachi's reputation has never matched his actual ability, hence Asuma stating that he'd kill Itachi along with Kisame.



Shisui has no feats with the body flicker, only his reputation. So if you aren't using reputation, and you aren't using feats, which method are you using to evaluate Shisui in order to compare him to Itachi and say the latter shinobi is faster? 



> Instead, I just consider that Shisui was Itachi's mentor, and that if 13-year-old Itachi wasn't quite as fast or talented in genjutsu as Shisui, then he certainly reached that point after a few more years.



Itachi doesn't have to become better than Shisui in everything just because he grew up...



> Itachi's flicker repeatedly catching Bee off guard, someone who was decent against A & Minato.



Itachi never caught B off guard with just his body flicker. It was that used in conjunction with Kage Bunshin the first time, and Nagato's Kuchiyose following that.

Furthermore, B never faced A's maximum shunshin, only his Lariat, and B's response to Hiraishin was more of a prediction; he anticipated Minato's jump ? which was instigated by A ?  and had his defense prepared before Minato even arrived at his back, which seems to be the case based on the _position_ of B's arm.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 7, 2014)

I don't like using video-game feats. I will agree that he probably has Susano'o as Kishi designed the thing, but beyond that I don't really consider anything else cannon. 

As for the manga, Shisui was considered the best Genjutsu user in the clan; and this is despite many people not knowing about Kotoamatsukami. So I take that to mean Shisui's base Genjutsu was better than anyone elses, including Itachi's. Itachi got better when he gained Tsukuyomi via MS, but Shisui's MS Genjutsu Kotoamatsukami is much better than Tsukuyomi. Itachi also gained Amaterasu, but again Kotoamatsukami is much better. Where Itachi excels Shisui is Susano'o; even with the game taken into consideration Shisui only showed Stage-3 Susano'o, while Itachi could use Stage-4. 

The way I view it is that Shisui is a better Ninja than Itachi. His Kotoamatsukami has great potential if used correctly to accomplish missions or even seize power.

However in terms of strength in 1v1 battles Shisui could be better than Itachi, but there is simply too much unknown to say for sure.


----------



## RedChidori (Sep 7, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> I think Shisui always held a slight edge over Itachi.
> If we're talking about Prime Shisui, I think he'd be equal or slightly better than Prime Itachi.
> 
> Outside of Mangekyou, Shisui seems to have a great flicker and was called the strongest of their entire clan until his death (according to game footage); he clearly held back against Danzou w/ Root, as well.



This, Shisui was the OG until he died , but Itachi-Sama became the OG when Shisui passed the torch to him .


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 7, 2014)

Could go either way, tho I see Amat and Koto as game ender. Don't know about Tsuki.


----------



## CurlyHat (Sep 7, 2014)

Using the logic of your avarage itachi fan...

Shisui Solos via Koto


----------



## Eliyua23 (Sep 7, 2014)

I think Itachi at his peak is probably the better overall ninja as his insight , knowledge , and brilliance has been hyped beyond Shisui in the manga , but how in the hell is Itachi gonna deal with Koto.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 7, 2014)

With Koto Shisui stomps.

Without Koto Itachi probably takes it high-mid to high diff.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 7, 2014)

With this I can tell that Shisui was like an older brother to Itachi who showed slightly more skill than Shisui. At the time of all this, it is obvious that Itachi was a bit weaker than the former.

*Of course if you gauge Itachi how he developed over years after this all went down, of course Itachi would win, but it wouldnt be fair because who knows how much stronger Shisui could have been moving forward in his life*


----------



## Bloo (Sep 8, 2014)

I really hate involving Shisui in fights. Why? The only argument people take into consideration is the statement that Killerbee made that he was the best genjutsu user amongst the clan. They take Killerbee's statement about Shisui's reputation as canon evidence that Shisui was indeed stronger than Itachi back when Shisui was alive, and when Itachi was in his prime. That's absolutely awful logic.

First of all, when Shisui went missing, Itachi was the first to be accused of killing Shisui. None of the three elite Uchiha were taken aback at the idea of Itachi being capable of killing Shisui. I think that's a solid indication between there difference in strength. Anyone saying there's a large gap is taking huge assumptions based off of one quote by a very unintelligent character that didn't know either of them personally (hell, didn't even know Itachi until the war).

In terms of feats, Itachi stomps Shisui. Shisui's only worrisome feat is Koto-Amatsukami. But, to say it's an instant KO is a large assumption as well. We still don't know too much about that jutsu. First of all, it doesn't seem like it's that hard to break. When Mifune was under it at the Kage Summit, via Danzo, Mifune was released from it upon being made aware of it influencing him. I think that shows evidence that it's not as strong as Itachi haters want it to be.

However, with knowledge, Itachi will not fall for Koto. Itachi will avoid looking into Shisui's eyes, leaving it a moot point, in my opinion. With the possibility of Koto being eliminated, I don't see any arguments you can make for Shisui. I love Shisui's character and I wish it could be further explored. But, to try to make a logical argument for his victory against Itachi, when we have so much more feats and hype for the latter, is a bit much.

*TLDR:*
Prime Shisui vs. _Prime Itachi_ — Itachi wins
Prime Shisui vs. _13y/o Itachi_ — Shisui wins


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 8, 2014)

Maybe I missed a better translation, but I believe Shisui is refereed to as the most "powerful" genjutsu user; not necessarily the best. In fact, even if he were referred to as the best the reputation may very well stem from Koto itself. Outside of Koto it becomes less clear and more open to interpretation. 

Also can't say I agree with the idea that there is much ambiguity surrounding the power of Koto. Danzo thought he could lolKoto fucking "Uchiha Madara" with it. Also IIRC Koto doesn't require eye-contact in the same manner as Izamai doesn't.


----------



## Bloo (Sep 8, 2014)

The Format said:


> Maybe I missed a better translation, but I believe Shisui is refereed to as the most "powerful" genjutsu user; not necessarily the best. In fact, even if he were referred to as the best the reputation may very well stem from Koto itself. Outside of Koto it becomes less clear and more open to interpretation.


The idea of "ultimate" doesn't exist in the Japanese language. That's the biggest problem with translations of that ideal. It should be "of ultimate power." This is why we have four genjutsus described as being "the ultimate."



> Also can't say I agree with the idea that there is much ambiguity surrounding the power of Koto. Danzo thought he could lolKoto fucking "Uchiha Madara" with it.


I think Danzo thinking he could beat someone and actually being capable of doing it are two separate things and not viable for a logical discussion.



> Also IIRC Koto doesn't require eye-contact in the same manner as Izamai doesn't.


I forgot about that. Again, we don't know enough about this jutsu to discuss how it would go in a fight. When Itachi had his crow use it on him, the eye contact was how it took place... I don't know, puzzled about this myself...


----------



## Lord Aizen (Sep 8, 2014)

Shisui possesses greater speed and genjutsu ability. Koto is pretty much GG


----------



## Turrin (Sep 8, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I really hate involving Shisui in fights. Why? The only argument people take into consideration is the statement that Killerbee made that he was the best genjutsu user amongst the clan. They take Killerbee's statement about Shisui's reputation as canon evidence that Shisui was indeed stronger than Itachi back when Shisui was alive, and when Itachi was in his prime. That's absolutely awful logic.


People take the statement to mean exactly what it says, that Shisui was the best at Genjutsu. Itachi himself reinforces this by calling Kotoamatsukami the saikyo-genjutsu. Shisui being better at Genjutsu than Itachi doesn't mean Shisui was stronger than Itachi, however it does offer supplementary support for the belief, as Itachi's main style is Genjutsu. So just like someone who is better at Shadow-Bind techniques than Shikkamaru, may not be necessarily stronger than Shikkamaru, it certainly does not hurt their chances.



> First of all, when Shisui went missing, Itachi was the first to be accused of killing Shisui. None of the three elite Uchiha were taken aback at the idea of Itachi being capable of killing Shisui.


Oh come on Bloo. Killing someone, especially a close friend that would not see it coming, is irrelevant to strength. Rusty-Tsunade could have killed Jiriaya w/ low diff after drugging him with poison. Sakura could have low-diff'd Sai, Kiba, and Lee in the Kages-Arc. Does ether instance really tell us anything about Kages-Arc Sakura or Rusty-Tsunade's strength in comparison to Jiriaya or Lee/Kiba/Sai? The list goes on from there. 



> . Anyone saying there's a large gap is taking huge assumptions based off of one quote by a very unintelligent character that didn't know either of them personally (hell, didn't even know Itachi until the war).


Huge gaps in what? Genjutsu or strength? In terms of Genjutsu there being a large gap is very possible. Killer-B was not saying it was his opinion that Shisui was the best, but rather that Shisui was famous for being the best. That means not just Killer-B, but many people considered Shisui the best at Genjutsu, which is again reinforced by Itachi himself. Additionally the mechanics of Kotoamatsukami, it's mythological inspiration, and how coveted Shisui's eyes were all support Kotoamatsukami being by far the best Genjutsu technique in the manga.

As for overall strength I agree with you there.  However Itachi's belief that Fodder-Crow armed w/ Koto could deal with a Sasuke who has both Itachi's own ocular power as well as his own, that on the other hand may very well support such a conclusion. Though I wouldn't go quite that far, myself.



> In terms of feats, Itachi stomps Shisui. Shisui's only worrisome feat is Koto-Amatsukami. But, to say it's an instant KO is a large assumption as well. We still don't know too much about that jutsu.


If we still don't know much about the Jutsu than how can you assert it isn't a an instant KO?



> First of all, it doesn't seem like it's that hard to break. When Mifune was under it at the Kage Summit, via Danzo, Mifune was released from it upon being made aware of it influencing him. I think that shows evidence that it's not as strong as Itachi haters want it to be.


Danzo released Mifune, not the other way around. The fact that Itachi thought it could deal w/ EMS-Sasuke should tell you, that what your suggesting is incorrect. 



> However, with knowledge, Itachi will not fall for Koto. Itachi will avoid looking into Shisui's eyes, leaving it a moot point, in my opinion.


Does Koto even need eye-contact. Danzo casted it on Mifune through his bandages. As for Itachi he canonically could not avoid Koto (Edo's being programmed to auto-defend) despite it being cast through a Fodder-Crow and him having full knowledge of it. So to say he definitely would avoid it, is way too much of an assumption.



> With the possibility of Koto being eliminated, I don't see any arguments you can make for Shisui. I love Shisui's character and I wish it could be further explored. But, to try to make a logical argument for his victory against Itachi, when we have so much more feats and hype for the latter, is a bit much.


Feats, sure. But saying one character whose had tons of fights in the manga is better because he's shown more feats than a character who hasn't had a single on panel fight, is extremely, and I mean extremely, faulty reasoning. 

By hype, not so much. Fodder-Crow armed w/ one of Shisui's Mangekyo being able to beat EMS-Sasuke is better hype than anything Itachi has ever received - strength wise. 



> TLDR:
> Prime Shisui vs. Prime Itachi — Itachi wins
> Prime Shisui vs. 13y/o Itachi — Shisui wins


I don't know how anyone can state anything definitive like this.


----------



## Bloo (Sep 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> People take the statement to mean exactly what it says, that Shisui was the best at Genjutsu. This Itachi himself reinforces this by calling Kotoamatsukami the saikyo-genjutsu. Shisui being better at Genjutsu than Itachi doesn't mean Shisui was stronger than Itachi, however it does offer supplementary support for the belief, as Itachi's main style is Genjutsu. So just like someone who is better at Shadow-Bind techniques than Shikkamaru, may not be necessarily stronger than Shikkamaru, it certainly does not hurt their chances.


Kotoamatsukami, Tsukuyomi, Izanami, and Izanagi have all been called the saikyo-genjutsu. As I have explained many times, the idea of being one "ultimate" doesn't exist in the Japanese language. It's a tier, not a throne. If we want to give something the title of ultimate genjutsu above all else, then that title would go to Mugen Tsukuyomi. However, Kotoamatsukami is on the same plane as Itachi's Tsukuyomi, Izanami, and Izanagi in terms of power. 



> Oh come on Bloo. Killing someone, especially a close friend that would not see it coming, is irrelevant to strength. Rusty-Tsunade could have killed Jiriaya w/ low diff after drugging him with poison. Sakura could have low-diff'd Sai, Kiba, and Lee in the Kages-Arc. Does ether instance really tell us anything about Kages-Arc Sakura or Rusty-Tsunade's strength in comparison to Jiriaya or Lee/Kiba/Sai? The list goes on from there.


Shisui was instructed to spy on Itachi. So, let's say that they did duke it out. I'm sure Shisui would have been suspicious of Itachi as he would have been told to be so. And comparing that to a drugged Jiraiya is a pretty miserable comparison.




> Huge gaps in what? Genjutsu or strength? In terms of Genjutsu there being a large gap is very possible. Killer-B was not saying it was his opinion that Shisui was the best, but rather that Shisui was famous for being the best.


Itachi was an ANBU. His missions were always done within the shadows and he wasn't able to get fame for his skills. His infamy comes from murdering his clan. Nothing else. Fame is entirely irrelevant, it's not logical to base rhetoric debate on fame.



> That means not just Killer-B, but many people considered Shisui the best at Genjutsu, which is again reinforced by Itachi himself.


Itachi didn't reinforce Shisui being the best genjutsu user. He called Koto-Amatsukami _an_ ultimate genjutsu of the Uchiha, and then goes on to say the same of Izanami. There are four genjutsu of ultimate power. One doesn't inherently sit above the others. I don't see what's difficult to explain about this.



> Additionally the mechanics of Kotoamatsukami, it's mythological inspiration, and how coveted Shisui's eyes were all support Kotoamatsukami being by far the best Genjutsu technique in the manga.


Danzo stole Shisui's eyes because he wanted that power and didn't trust him. He would be shooting himself in the foot if he stole Itachi's sharingan. He later goes on to praise Itachi's illusory skills with regard to his Tsukuyomi. The only other person that coveted Shisui's eyes was Kabuto. Kabuto literally revived anything else that lived during the manga, so him coveting a notable Uchiha's eyes to revive him isn't that impressive. But, if you want to go on Kabuto's impression as a feat, then Itachi was called by Kabuto to be his finest Edō. Even with Madara as one of his summonings.

Also, Shikaku and Ao (someone who has encountered Shisui before and recognized his chakra's color) stated that Itachi was the *only* individual to be capable of controlling people outside of sensor range. I find Ao to be a much more reliable source of information than Killerbee. Especially seeing as how he has information on both shinobi, Killerbee did not.



> As for overall strength I agree with you there.  However Itachi's belief that Fodder-Crow armed w/ Koto could deal with a Sasuke who has both Itachi's own ocular power as well as his own, that on the other hand may very well support such a conclusion. Though I wouldn't go quite that far, myself.


Sasuke has failed to fully implement the genjutsu capabilities of Itachi's eyes, so I don't know how that would work. It worked on Itachi. So, saying it wouldn't work on Sasuke is a stretch. Again, we don't know enough about Koto to act like it's an end-all, be-all jutsu.



> If we still don't know much about the Jutsu than how can you assert it isn't a an instant KO?


Because Shisui lost to Danzo, Mifune broke free from Koto, etc. If it was an instant KO, I don't think either of those scenarios would have happened.



> Danzo released Mifune, not the other way around. The fact that Itachi thought it could deal w/ EMS-Sasuke should tell you, that what your suggesting is incorrect.


He did? I can't remember that off the top of my head, it's been a long time since reading the Kage Summit Arc.

However, even with knowledge, Itachi could possibly divert the jutsu with the use of karasu bunshins. I also doubt that Shisui would use it outside of being bloodlusted. He was in a life or death situation against Danzo and still refused to use it.




> Does Koto even need eye-contact. Danzo casted it on Mifune through his bandages. As for Itachi he canonically could not avoid Koto (Edo's being programmed to auto-defend) despite it being cast through a Fodder-Crow and him having full knowledge of it. So to say he definitely would avoid it, is way too much of an assumption.


I'll revoke that claim. However, I do think that Itachi could retreat and come up with a counter-measure. Again, I don't think Shisui would use it. It costs him an eye for 10 years. Why use it?



> Feats, sure. But saying one character whose had tons of fights in the manga is better because he's shown more feats than a character who hasn't had a single on panel fight, is extremely, and I mean extremely, faulty reasoning.


Never said that was guaranteed reasoning. I said, from the first sentence, I hate using Shisui in fights because you have absolutely nothing to go off of.



> By hype, not so much. Fodder-Crow armed w/ one of Shisui's Mangekyo being able to beat EMS-Sasuke is better hype than anything Itachi has ever received - strength wise.


Because Itachi's plans always work, right?



> I don't know how anyone can state anything definitive like this.


You do realize that statement could be made for most battles in BD, right? I said Itachi wins in his prime because he was able to further strengthen himself due to simply having more time. If they were on a comparable stance of strength before Shisui's death (which I think is a far assumption, with Shisui being a tad stronger), then I think it's safe to assume that Itachi with eight extra years of development would win. But, that's why Shisui battle threads are idiotic. You can't make a definitive claim.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 8, 2014)

Bloo said:


> Kotoamatsukami, Tsukuyomi, Izanami, and Izanagi have all been called the saikyo-genjutsu. As I have explained many times, the idea of being one "ultimate" doesn't exist in the Japanese language. It's a tier, not a throne.


A couple things are wrong here.  "Saikyou" = "the strongest", not "ultimate". Your right that other things have been called "Saikyou" before, however there is no "Saikyou" "tier" or "level". Rather it's just Kishi's way of hyping shit. Just like Gaara's absolute defense is called the "Saikyou" defense, however in reality there are many defenses greater than it. What matters here is the speaker. The fact that Itachi is calling Kotoamatsukami the "Saikyou genjutsu".



> If we want to give something the title of ultimate genjutsu above all else, then that title would go to Mugen Tsukuyomi.


Mugen Tsukuyomi, is just Tsukuyomi super charged by Kaguya's Chakra. It's not inherently a better technique than Kotomatsukami. Or to put it another way Kaguya using generic binding Genjutsu would out-perform Itachi using Tsukuyomi, but that doesn't mean  generic binding Genjutsu is superior to Tsukuyomi. If Kaguya used Kotoamatsukami it's effects would be even more fearsome than Mugen-Tsukuyomi.



> However, Kotoamatsukami is on the same plane as Itachi's Tsukuyomi, Izanami, and Izanagi in terms of power.


I sincerely doubt that Itachi is calling Kotoamatsukami "Saikyou genjutsu", when he has 2 Genjutsu Techniques [Izanami and Tsukuyomi] that are as strong as it. I also have trouble imagining that Kishi is giving Shisui's Dojutsu the name of the gods above Izanami/Izanagi/Tsukuyomi, if he intends for those Dojutsu to be equivalent to Kotoamatsukami. 



> Shisui was instructed to spy on Itachi. So, let's say that they did duke it out. I'm sure Shisui would have been suspicious of Itachi as he would have been told to be so.


If you want to talk about the mind-set of those Uchiha Police guards than i'm more than happy to do so. Yes they knew Shisui was tasked with the mission to spy on Itachi, but that doesn't mean Shisui believe his best friend was guilty and was always on guard around him. The police force also clearly believed Itachi was a weakling they could push around, and even considered him nothing more than a "brat". So It's very hard for me to believe that they thought this "brat" killed Shisui in a fair fight. 



> tachi was an ANBU. His missions were always done within the shadows and he wasn't able to get fame for his skills. His infamy comes from murdering his clan. Nothing else. Fame is entirely irrelevant, it's not logical to base rhetoric debate on fame.


Kakashi was an Anbu and he was famous. Shisui himself was almost certainly Anbu given his attire in Itachi's flashback:
_dwarfed_

And if you want to talk about people not being aware of someone's abilities. Shisui could only use Koto twice every 10 years, so how many people would have even known Shisui had Koto; yet they still considered him the best in the clan. 



> Itachi didn't reinforce Shisui being the best genjutsu user. He called Koto-Amatsukami an ultimate genjutsu of the Uchiha, and then goes on to say the same of Izanami. There are four genjutsu of ultimate power. One doesn't inherently sit above the others. I don't see what's difficult to explain about this.


Gottheim, who also happens to be one of the best translators, says it better than I could:


Now, as of the translation itself, here's my take on it:


うちは最強の幻術使い
Uchiha saikyou no genjutsu-tsukai

You mean Uchiha Shisui
瞬身のシスイか？
Uchiha Shisui ka?

The strongest genjutsu user among the Uchiha?

Itachi doesn't bother to contradict him, or even correct him. On the contrary, he builds upon it

シスイの瞳力は対象者が幻術にかけられたと自覚する事なく操る事ができる最強幻術を生む
Shisui no douryoku ha taishousha ga genjutsu ni kakerareta to jikaku suru koto naku ayatsuru koto ga dekiru saikyou genjutsu wo umu.


It wouldn't make much sense for Bee to say Shisui was the strongest right in front of Itachi if the latter had built a greater reputation in the meantime.

If Itachi had surpassed Shisui in this domain, you could reasonably expect him to have come up with his own version of Koto Amatsukami. But he didn't. He resorted to Shisui's eyes for that instead"[/I]

I do not know if he calls Izanami a Saikyou Genjutsu or not; i'm thinking not though.



> Danzo stole Shisui's eyes because he wanted that power and didn't trust him. He would be shooting himself in the foot if he stole Itachi's sharingan. He later goes on to praise Itachi's illusory skills with regard to his Tsukuyomi. The only other person that coveted Shisui's eyes was Kabuto. Kabuto literally revived anything else that lived during the manga, so him coveting a notable Uchiha's eyes to revive him isn't that impressive.


You say Izanagi and Izanami are equivalent to Kotoamatsukami, but Danzo was willing to sacrifice all of his Izanagi usages just to stall for Shisui's eye to activate:
_dwarfed_

I don't see how that doesn't portray Koto as > Izanagi and it's sister jutsu Izanagi.

And Kabuto, Danzo, and Obito all coveted Shisui's power. And Itachi himself relied on it in place of his own Genjutsu. Basically everyone who came into contact with it, ether coveted Shisui's power or acknowledged it.



> But, if you want to go on Kabuto's impression as a feat, then Itachi was called by Kabuto to be his finest Edō. Even with Madara as one of his summonings.


That wasn't all about power though, as was the case with Shisui's eye.



> Also, Shikaku and Ao (someone who has encountered Shisui before and recognized his chakra's color) stated that Itachi was the only individual to be capable of controlling people outside of sensor range. I find Ao to be a much more reliable source of information than Killerbee. Especially seeing as how he has information on both shinobi, Killerbee did not.


How does AO's statement contradict Killer-B's statement? Also AO was apparently mistaken as Shisui had planned to use Kotoamatsukami on the entire clan and control them indefinitely. Itachi planned to use Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke to control him indefinitely. No matter the range or time. AO only knew a little bit about Shisui's Genjutsu, and thus was unaware of it's full power. Beyond this I also questions the validity of the translation there as I've seen AO's dialog translated 4 different ways, all with different meanings. 

Trans-1 - Has it as only Itachi can do this
Trans-2 - Has it as Itachi is the only one AO knows has that ability
Trans-3- Has it as someone as skilled as Itachi or more would be needed to do this
Trans-4- Has no mention of Itachi being the only one able to do this

Trans 2 through 4, do not preclude the notion that Shisui could do this, only Trans 1 does (and that's AO's obviously fault opinion). Trans 3 and 4, don't even indicate that AO is unaware of other character who could do this.



> Sasuke has failed to fully implement the genjutsu capabilities of Itachi's eyes, so I don't know how that would work. It worked on Itachi. So, saying it wouldn't work on Sasuke is a stretch. Again, we don't know enough about Koto to act like it's an end-all, be-all jutsu.


On the flip side of this, we don't know enough about Koto to act like it isn't the end-all, be-all Jutsu.

What we do know is apparently Itachi considered Koto capable of defeating EMS-Sasuke. Danzo also considered Koto to be able to defeat Tobi who he believed to be Uchiha Madara, another EMS users (and the strongest EMS user of all). I'm not really seeing Tsukuyomi, Izanami, or Izanagi holding that hype.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 8, 2014)

> Because Shisui lost to Danzo,


Under what circumstances? Did he even use Kotoamatsukami against Danzo?



> He did? I can't remember that off the top of my head, it's been a long time since reading the Kage Summit Arc.


It's just common sense. AO could tell when Mifune was under the Genjutsu. So if Danzo continued to keep Mifune Genjutsu'd he would only turn the Gokage against him even more. Hence he needed to go along with them; he even says as much to Fu when Fu wants to get Sasuke's Sharingan, and AO tells him he has to stay put. Danzo was found out, therefore he deactivated the technique.

Unless of course it's more realistic in your opinion to  believe Mifune has Genjutsu countering skills greater than Madara or EMS-Sasuke. Or Itachi and Danzo are idiots, that know less about Kotoamatsukami than you.



> However, even with knowledge, Itachi could possibly divert the jutsu with the use of karasu bunshins. .


Shisui apparently considered it within his power to Koto the entire Uchiha-Clan so, Bushin seems rather irrelevant if that was truly his plan. 

Outside of that yeah a-lot of stuff could happen, because we don't know enough about Shisui.



> I also doubt that Shisui would use it outside of being bloodlusted. He was in a life or death situation against Danzo and still refused to use it.
> I'll revoke that claim. However, I do think that Itachi could retreat and come up with a counter-measure. Again, I don't think Shisui would use it. It costs him an eye for 10 years. Why use it?


Unless Shisui is confident that he can defeat Itachi w/o it, in which case it doesn't matter. I don't see why he would not use it in a death match. 



> Never said that was guaranteed reasoning. I said, from the first sentence, I hate using Shisui in fights because you have absolutely nothing to go off of.


Yes, but it's beyond just being not guaranteed; it's really just straight up irrelevant reasoning.



> Because Itachi's plans always work, right?


The plan could fail, but that in no way takes away from the fact that Itachi believed it could succeed against an EMS User; this further supported by Danzo thinking the same. 



> You do realize that statement could be made for most battles in BD, right? I said Itachi wins in his prime because he was able to further strengthen himself due to simply having more time. If they were on a comparable stance of strength before Shisui's death (which I think is a far assumption, with Shisui being a tad stronger), then I think it's safe to assume that Itachi with eight extra years of development would win. But, that's why Shisui battle threads are idiotic. You can't make a definitive claim.


I don't see how it's a fair assumption that Itachi and Shisui were comparable before Shisui's death. Everyone acknowledge Shisui as the strongest Uchiha; not Itachi. Shisui had Mangekyo; which Itachi didn't even gain until Shisui's death and didn't awaken his MS jutsu until the Uchiha Clan massacre. I literally see nothing indicating they were equals or even remotely close before Shisu's death. Can you explain to me what indicates they were equals.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2014)

I think Shisui is the most "powerful" genjutsu user, simply because Koto is the most powerful genjutsu. There is no counter for it.

As for that video, what kind of a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) would play the game dubbed ? 

Seemed to me that Shisui and Itachi were really close in strength, and they made it seem like Shisui only won because Itachi wasn't giving his all ? Shisui's wording indicated that Itachi won matches against him too, and the last one went in Shisui's favor, putting him in  the lead.
If thats the case, current Itachi'd probably leave Shisui in the dust, in terms of everything bar Koto. 

So with Koto Shisui still may win. But hell, Shisui would defeat Madara or Hashirama too, if we go by that reasoning.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Sep 9, 2014)

Trying to beat shisui is impossible without izanagi he's the powered version of lelouch vi Britannia from Code Geass


----------



## CurlyHat (Sep 9, 2014)

Itachi is a poor man's shisui.

Shisui Solos neg diff via Genjutsu rape.


----------



## iJutsu (Sep 9, 2014)

Minato, Ei and Shisui lived at the same time. Would be kinda odd to give a shunshin nickname to someone who isn't even remotely as fast as Minato or even Ei.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Bloo said:


> I think Danzo thinking he could beat someone and actually being capable of doing it are two separate things and not viable for a logical discussion.


We have no reason to believe Danzo was somehow misinformed on on a technique that he'd been using for years. Especially when it worked just fine on Mifune and Itachi himself, withthe latter blatantly _knowing _he was under its effects.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

Danzo may be mistaken in thinking Koto could defeat Madara, but the very fact that he thinks it can is sufficient hype even if he's wrong. This is Madara Uchiha were talking about afterall


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Danzo may be mistaken in thinking Koto could defeat Madara, but the very fact that he thinks it can is sufficient hype even if he's wrong. This is Madara Uchiha were talking about afterall



Whats Madara's counter to Koto ?  A technique he has never seen or known about ?


----------



## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Whats Madara's counter to Koto ?  A technique he has never seen or known about ?


No clue, I personally think Koto would take him down, because I don't think it even requires eye-contact. In-fact I think Koto is the whole reason Obito wanted Sasuke to engage Danzo as he was wary of doing so himself


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2014)

You didn't restrict Kotoamatsuki, it literally already canonically worked on Itachi. 

He loses, obviously.


----------



## Crow (Sep 10, 2014)

Koto kills... Unless it's hi can pull out the tosuka sword quick enough


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 11, 2014)

Im more interested in shisui speed, in some translations they call him shisui the teleporter or shisui of the shushing.



During times when A and Minato was around thats a pretty impressive feat imo.


----------

