# Nagato vs EMS Madara



## Sufex (Apr 3, 2019)

The living Madara that fought hashirama so no hashi boob shit

Location:Valley of The End
Distance: 30M
Restrictions: No kyubi summon for madara
Knowledge: Manga
Stipulations: Nagato can walk/ full health

@Artistwannabe 
@Woodward  im interested in your take


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 3, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> The living Madara that fought hashirama so no hashi boob shit
> 
> Location:Valley of The End
> Distance: 30M
> ...


I love you


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## Zembie (Apr 3, 2019)

ignore his cute onion eyes.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

V4 Susanoo claps

PS claps harder

Nagato isnt comparable to the founders

Hes a tier beneath them

Reactions: Like 2


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 3, 2019)

Nagato uses Bansho Tein, Madara tries to counter with v1 Susanoo, it gets Preta Pathed then Madara gets crippled by Cho Shinra Tensei

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato uses Bansho Tein, Madara tries to counter with v1 Susanoo, it gets Preta Pathed then Madara gets crippled by Cho Shinra Tensei


Nagato doesnt have teh 5 second time limit on Deva path because reasons I guess


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 3, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagato doesnt have teh 5 second time limit on Deva path because reasons I guess


That def wouldn't happen in less the 5 seconds, but nice try
ck


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## Cad Bane (Apr 3, 2019)

Actually going to say Madara. Nagato has a more versatile arsenal but I don't see him tanking a mountain cutting Perfect Susanoo slash. I could see Nagato beating Hashirama though.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> That def wouldn't happen in less the 5 seconds


Nagatos cooldown doesnt start WHILE HES STILL USING BT

The 5 seconds wouldnt start counting down until he stopped casting BT on Madara

Damn youre bad at this

If Devas powers worked like this, hed just sustain his STs for 5 straight seconds and have ZERO inactivity


MaruUchiha said:


> but nice try


I cant say the same about you


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 3, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagatos cooldown doesnt start WHILE HES STILL USING BT


Which he would already stop using after he Preta Paths Madara's Susanoo.. You're reaching so hard right now


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## Android (Apr 3, 2019)

PS one shots. End of story.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Which he would already stop using after he Preta Paths Madara's Susanoo


Then Madara rips his throat out with taijutsu while hes directly in Nagatos face and hes absorbing Susanoo

Tags him with genjutsu

Or simply uses a more powerful version of Susanoo than V1 on his way to Nagato, straight up overpowers BTs pull, then fires a damn shockwave at Nagato killing his ass neg diff.


MaruUchiha said:


> You're reaching so hard right now


Nope 

Your arguments are just shit

As always


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## Djomla (Apr 3, 2019)

Madara pummels through him like piss through snow.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 3, 2019)

Sometimes I think you guys think Madara will use PS slashes like he's using a battle rope.


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 3, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Then Madara rips his throat out with taijutsu while hes directly in Nagatos face and hes absorbing Susanoo


Not when Cho Shinra Tensei happens right before Madara lands a blow


WorldsStrongest said:


> Tags him with genjutsu


Not even Infinite Tsukuyomi works against Rinnegan.... Wtf genjutsu does EMS Madara have that would work?



WorldsStrongest said:


> Or simply uses a more powerful version of Susanoo than V1 on his way to Nagato, straight up overpowers BTs pull, then fires a damn shockwave at Nagato killing his ass neg diff


And the shockwave gets negged by Cho Shinra Tensei along with Madara's Susanoo since Nagato's cooldown period isn't even 5 seconds like Pain you're just being dishonest as ususal


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Not when Cho Shinra Tensei happens right before Madara lands a blow


No it doesnt

Cuz it would still be on cooldown as he literally JUST STOPPED USING BT in YOUR OWN SCENARIO

The cooldown will have JUST STARTED when Madara tags him

You just have no fucking idea how anything in this series works


MaruUchiha said:


> Not even Infinite Tsukuyomi works against Rinnegan


No 

Not even Mugen works on Rinnegan user in the hands of the ORIGINAL OWNERS smart ass

Or did you miss teh part where Nagato has ZERO genjutsu ability or MS techniques or Precog or Susanoo with his eyes????

Cuz he doesnt have any Sharingan based abilities with his Rinnegan...

Guess you also missed the part where Nagato flopped against Frog Song...A GENJUTSU.


MaruUchiha said:


> And the shockwave gets negged by Cho Shinra Tensei


No it doesnt 


MaruUchiha said:


> along with Madara's Susanoo


NO IT MOST CERTAINLY DOESNT

Susanoos durability is WAY higher than CSTs output.

If TSUNADE can power a SLUG to become strong enough to protect FODDER from CST, Madaras V4 or PS is negging it.


MaruUchiha said:


> Nagato's cooldown period isn't even 5 seconds like Pain


Baseless

Prove it


MaruUchiha said:


> you're just being dishonest as ususal


Youre the one who has legit not stopped lying since he entered this thread

Prove your last claim with evidence

Prove a single one of your claims with evidence

Go ahead


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## Sufex (Apr 3, 2019)

*>Worlds posts
>Maru posts right after
>instantly disagree *




Here we go lads.

You two are half the reason i come here


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 3, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No it doesnt
> 
> Cuz it would still be on cooldown as he literally JUST STOPPED USING BT in YOUR OWN SCENARIO
> 
> The cooldown will have JUST STARTED when Madara tags him


Huh? How fast is this fight happening in your mind? Lightspeed? Wtf is this Dragonball Z? That would definitely go down in a matter of 5 seconds after using Bansho Tein


WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> Not even Mugen works on Rinnegan user in the hands of the ORIGINAL OWNERS smart ass



Wtf does the original owner have to do with this? So Nagato and Rinnegan Obito can be put under Infinte Tsukuyomi? Can they not see Limbo clones now too?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Or did you miss teh part where Nagato has ZERO genjutsu ability or MS techniques or Precog or Susanoo with his eyes????
> 
> Cuz he doesnt have any Sharingan based abilities with his Rinnegan...



Wtf do either of these points have to do with the fact Rinnegan negs Infinite Tsukuyomi?


WorldsStrongest said:


> Guess you also missed the part where Nagato flopped against Frog Song...A GENJUTSU.


That was Pain. Nagato and Rinnegan Obito's paths don't actually have Rinnegan like them dude.. Besides you can't scale Nagato off Pain who is weaker than him anyway


WorldsStrongest said:


> No it doesnt


As you like to say "Not a fucking argument"
Rinnegan >>> EMS
Cho Shinra Tensei >>> Susanoo shockwaves


WorldsStrongest said:


> If TSUNADE can power a SLUG to become strong enough to protect FODDER from CST, Madaras V4 or PS is negging it.


More dishonesty.. Tsunade was on the outskirts of that Shinra Tensei and Pain's Shinra Tensei is weaker than Nagato's


WorldsStrongest said:


> Baseless
> 
> Prove it


You can't prove it is either so this goes both ways.. My perspective makes much more sense tho since i'm not scaling Nagato to someone weaker like you


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## blk (Apr 3, 2019)

I feel like a very similar thread was already made not too long ago.

Anyway, Madara wins. Ultimately Nagato doesn't have what it takes to fight PS, the chakra construct has casual raw power and durability that are of a greater scale than those of Nagato.

Preta at best could absorb the sword if Madara tries to hit him directly, but the following shockwave would obliterate Nagato. If he stops the shockwave with ST, he is defeated simply by a second slash.

And with manga knowledge (i.e Madara knowing everything about the Rinnegan) the Uchiha won't be caught off guard by any of Nagato's powers.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Huh? How fast is this fight happening in your mind? Lightspeed?


MHS-MHS+actually

Thats Massively Hypersonic

Thats Mach 100-Mach 8000


MaruUchiha said:


> That would definitely go down in a matter of 5 seconds after using Bansho Tein


No its not

Youre stupid argument goes like so

> Nagato uses BT
> Madara gets in range for Preta path and then Nagato stops using BT
> 5 seconds pass where madaar does nothing and then IMMEDIATELY eats a point blank CST with no resistance

This is a moronic argument

During the 5 seconds where he is LITERALLY ON TOP OF NAGATO, Madara could do any fucking number of things to end Nagato


MaruUchiha said:


> Wtf does the original owner have to do with this?


The fact that a hand me down Rinnegan doesnt come with Sharingan abilities

Which includes Genjutsu resistance


MaruUchiha said:


> So Nagato and Rinnegan Obito can be put under Infinte Tsukuyomi?


Nagato would, he lacks ANY genjutsu resistance especially at that level to suggets otherwise

Its likely Obito would as well

Sasuke only blocked Mugen with a Rinnegan amped Susanoo. Something Obito or Nagato cant do.



MaruUchiha said:


> Wtf do either of these points have to do with the fact Rinnegan negs Infinite Tsukuyomi?


Rinnegan in the hands of someone who can make use of the entire Eyes abilities.

Nagato cant use Sharingan based abilities.

Which would include Genjutsu resistance.



MaruUchiha said:


> you can't scale Nagato off Pain who is weaker than him anyway


Hes unquantifiably weaker

You can absolutely scale Nagato off of Pain...Thats what EVERYONE DOES

Nagato is literally Pain+

Thats also EXACTLY what Kishi did


MaruUchiha said:


> As you like to say "Not a fucking argument"


No actually

I woudl say Not a fucking argument to this next trash


MaruUchiha said:


> Rinnegan >>> EMS
> Cho Shinra Tensei >>> Susanoo shockwaves


THIS is not an argument

EMS has WAY higher output than Nagatos hand me down Rinnegan

Fact

Susanoo shockwaves arent weaker than CST


MaruUchiha said:


> More dishonesty.. Tsunade was on the outskirts of that Shinra Tensei


You also missed the part where I said she protected EVERY FODDER IN THE VILLAGE.

Are you now going to argue that EVERY MEMBER OF KONOHA was only on the outskirts of that technique?

By all means keep bullshitting


MaruUchiha said:


> Pain's Shinra Tensei is weaker than Nagato's


Unquantifiably so

Nagato wasnt portrayed as otherwordly more powerful than Pain as you keep suggesting

Nagatos greatest advantage over Pain was that he had all Paths in One body for more efficent use, as well as each path being arbitrarily more powerful in his hands than Pains.


MaruUchiha said:


> You can't prove it is either so this goes both ways


Holy shit you are a terrible debater 

YOURE MAKING THE FUCKING CLAIM

YOU NEED TO PROVE IT

THATS HOW BURDEN OF PROOF WORKS


MaruUchiha said:


> My perspective makes much more sense


NO IT DOESNT

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tri (Apr 3, 2019)

Once PS comes out Madara cuts down Nagato and takes the win.


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## Woodward (Apr 3, 2019)

PS is a mountain-buster only, actually it cuts mountain tops which isn't the same as busting a mountain entirely. Anyway, this is just a portion of Konoha and look at the Hokage Mountain represented by the red-line (Madara's full power is only cutting mountain tops):


The power disparity is pretty clear. Nagato stomps Madara.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 3, 2019)

Woodward said:


> PS is a mountain-buster only, actually it cuts mountain tops which isn't the same as busting a mountain entirely. Anyway, this is just a portion of Konoha and look at the Hokage Mountain represented by the red-line (Madara's full power is only cutting mountain tops):
> 
> 
> The power disparity is pretty clear. Nagato stomps Madara.


Let's compare!


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## Serene Grace (Apr 3, 2019)

PS is Nagato's only worry, and that's due to unabsorable shockwave slashes once that comes out it's a gg. Otherwise nagato slurps and one shots


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 3, 2019)

I do want to ask, could EMS users make a Susanoo of that PS size? Wouldn't he have used it instead of fusing it with Kyuubi?


I don't think even EMS Sasuke could make a Susanoo of that size until he got Sage power.


Refresh my memories, guys!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (Apr 3, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> PS is Nagato's only worry, and that's due to unabsorable shockwave slashes once that comes out it's a gg. Otherwise nagato slurps and one shots




Can preta absorb perfect susanoo?


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## Serene Grace (Apr 3, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Can preta absorb perfect susanoo?


Likely not before madara throws a slash his way

Though if PS is still, it sure can


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 3, 2019)

Madara is a few tiers above Nagato. He wins with low difficulty.


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## blk (Apr 3, 2019)

@Woodward 

CST is indeed more powerful _than a single PS slash. _But you are ignoring the important fact that that is a casual, no effort, attack for Madara's PS. He can replicate the same thing tens or even hundreds of times.
To add to that, PS gives Madara the durability to fight without worry at those scales of destructive power. 

CST on the other hand is a one time jutsu for Nagato, which consumes a significant amount of his chakra and even reduces his lifespan. After using it he cannot use his strongest ability for a long time. 

Nagato doesn't have the _casual_ destructive power of Madara or the durability that would let him fight safely at the scale Madara is accustomed.


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## Woodward (Apr 3, 2019)

Wrecked Baloney said:


> Let's compare!



Compare what, you idiot? Your scan only proves me right. PS cuts mountain tops, the same mountain as highlighted in the red are dwarfed in magnitude by CST.


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 3, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Compare what, you idiot? Your scan only proves me right. PS cuts mountain tops, the same mountain as highlighted in the red are dwarfed in magnitude by CST.


Don't call me an idiot when I simply wanted to see the comparison.


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## Woodward (Apr 3, 2019)

blk said:


> @Woodward
> 
> CST is indeed more powerful _than a single PS slash. _But you are ignoring the important fact that that is a casual, no effort, attack for Madara's PS. He can replicate the same thing tens or even hundreds of times.
> To add to that, PS gives Madara the durability to fight without worry at those scales of destructive power.
> ...



PS per slash = mountain, multiple slash = multi-mountains. CST = city busting (Konoha is measured from 40km to 100km). A typical mountain, depending on the country's acceptance, is 300m-1.2km. The total unit of energy CST produces is simply _far, far, far_ more than what PS can produce in total. I already drew the line difference between PS's destructive power and how small it is to what CST did.

CST would bust PS entirely and kill Madara along with it. Yeah, it's one Jutsu but it's also a one-shot.


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## Woodward (Apr 3, 2019)

Wrecked Baloney said:


> Don't call me an idiot when I simply wanted to see the comparison.



There is no comparison to even see. The red line is the Hokage mountain; it's dwarfed by the blue line that extends to the edge of Konoha (mind you the scan is only a portion of the village). PS cuts mountains, CST bust Konoha.


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## Mad Scientist (Apr 3, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Holy shit you are a terrible debater
> 
> YOURE MAKING THE FUCKING CLAIM
> 
> ...



Being the world's strongest doesn't mean you need to forcefully shout down your opponents.

Chill, brother.

Here's a free refreshment. 
​

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Being the world's strongest doesn't mean you need to forcefully shout down your opponents.
> 
> Chill, brother.
> 
> ...


Pretty sure I had a chat with you in the past of needing to stay out of what doesnt concern you bro

Mind your business

Youre not a mod

Nor have I broken any rules

You have a problem with my rebuttals content?

Either quote me and do better than @MaruUchiha is capable of doing, or butt out and stop wasting my time with this white knight bullshit

Thanks


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2019)

Nagato gets cut down once Madara uses PS


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 3, 2019)

Why does PS end things? I'm curious. 

Is it that you guys think it can't be absorbed? Do you think Madara will spam slashes from afar (even though no PS user has ever done this)? Do you think Nagato can't just create and maintain a ST barrier, like he's done 3 times in the manga, to nullify the shock wave damage?

I just wanna know. The PS slashes seem to be the _only _argument for why PS wins. But then it ignores the ST factor... I just want to know what is it?


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## Kisame (Apr 3, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Madara is a few tiers above Nagato. He wins with low difficulty.


This is the only answer.

Madara ridicules Nagato and tells him he isn't worthy of having a Rinnegan, he then proceeds to one-shot him.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 3, 2019)

Shark said:


> This is the only answer.
> 
> Madara ridicules Nagato and tells him he isn't worthy of having a Rinnegan, he then proceeds to one-shot him.


He might also mind fuck him by telling him where the Rinnegan can from.


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## Mad Scientist (Apr 3, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Youre not a mod


Hi 

What does that have to do with anything?

Thanks


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 3, 2019)

I'm surprised there isn't more genjutsu arguments.


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## kokodeshide (Apr 3, 2019)

Nagato babyshakes with the mazo, Low to mid diffs without it.

No ninjutsu will work on nagato, as per canon.
And Asura rips Madara to shreds.


WorldsStrongest said:


> THIS is not an argument
> 
> EMS has WAY higher output than Nagatos hand me down Rinnegan
> 
> ...


Stop lying. Basic ST has blocked 200 Megaton FRS. PS slash is 200 megatons. CST is in the gigatons. Don't whip out fake ass statements. Funny how a hand me down rinnegan shits on Madaras best jutsu. how funny.

Prove your statements.


FoboBemo said:


> Can preta absorb perfect susanoo?


Doesnt need to. It absorbs the section of the sword that will hit him. Kinda like what Kaguya does to sasukes susano in the anime.


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## X III (Apr 3, 2019)

Madara wouldn't waste time jerking off when he's facing an Uzumaki with the Rinnegan. That'd mean he goes PS right off the bat and takes Nagato out with shockwaves. Preta Path is circumvented with shock waves. Animal Path Summons get killed by being in the battle. Chameleon is seen through by Sharingan which has already seen through camouflage (2T Obito) and is easily disposed of considering it got owned by Ma/Pa's combination attack which is <<< PS. Asura Path can't breach Perfect Susano'o when not even a Kurama TBB could. Linked vision < Choku Tomoe Sharingan which could track and keep up with Juubito. Linked vision is also only given to Nagato via Asura, Hell, and Animal. Animal gives him the most shared vision and it gets taken care of via PS. Hell only grants him two pairs of eyes and has no fighting capability (Nagato needs contact with opponent to rip out their tongues/souls) and Asura only provides 2 extra pairs of eyes. ST when used by a Tendo (who Nagato was focusing all his Chakra through) was resisted and turned back on Tendo by KN6. Tendo is less than Nagato by an unquantifiable amount due to the distance factor between Tendo/Nagato, which we know was gradually decreasing throughout the battle due to Tendo getting closer and closer to Nagato. ST also failed to cause major damage to KCM Naruto and base Bee so I doubt it does much against PS, Kakashi could survive it with no Chakra Armors to protect himself, and SM Naruto could tank it. PS >>>> Boss Summons and >> all the guys mentioned in durability so it tanks a normal ST. CT gets its core taken out just like it did when Itachi/Naruto/Bee fought against it. They destroyed it with a Bijuu Dama/Yasaka Magatama/FRS. Madara needs to land a good hit in with his PS blade and takes it out. Madara's very analytical as an Uchiha and can easily conjure up this method after seeing how CT works. He isn't dumb like Naruto, and while he is cocky he isn't carefree like Bee. Even if CT gets big, Madara still tunnels out of it with PS just like Kurama 50% KN8 did. CST is Nagato's final option and that can at best give him a high diff win, although I doubt it since it couldn't even kill Tsunade who had given her Chakra to all the Katsuyu pieces in the village (which shortened her life) and a fodder ANBU. Tsunade and ANBU were running after Pain, meaning they didn't just stay at the side and take barely any damage. CST also leaves Nagato wide open for attack since he has to shut down all his other Paths and concentrate Chakra on Deva to use it. And after use, it drains his Chakra, his life force, and puts him on cool down for Deva. Worst case scenario, Madara comes back with Izanagi and fucks Nagato up since he's on cool down for Deva and can't deal with Madara's Legged Susanoo without that. He can also get cucked by a sword to the back since sensory/linked vision aren't passive and Nagato has to activate them by exerting Chakra, which he won't be doing if thinks he's won. Reasonable to assume Nagato/Konan shared information with each other about the MS's abilities, and Konan knew nothing about Izanagi hence why she got beaten by it. Lines up with Nagato not knowing about Sharingan techs (Genjutsu, Susanoo, precog, etc.). Overall, Madara takes it due to Susanoo, Izanagi, and Choku Tomoe. Genjutsu's also a viable option since Nagato's not shown any counters to that and we've seen someone with Bijuu levels of Chakra get cucked by it. But anyway, Madara takes it.


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## Perfect Susano (Apr 3, 2019)

Perfect Susano'o chops CT. Chou Shinra Tensei isn't breaking Perfect Susano'o at all let alone killing Madara when it didn't even kill Tsunade and Katsuyu was enough to protect people from it.


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## blk (Apr 4, 2019)

@Woodward
Again, I agree that CST > PS slashes (tho i don't think you are considering that the slash destroyed the line of landscape between PS and the mountains).
My point is that Nagato's other abilities pale in comparison to that (again excluding CST and CT). So he can pretty much fight PS only with those two one-time skills. 

Now you say that CST is enough, but I disagree. 
PS tanks bijuudamas easily, is CST significantly more powerful than them? It also needs to be done pretty much from above PS, otherwise it will only push the construct without damaging it much. 

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian 

It's simple: Preta path cannot absorb shockwaves and ST can be used once and then there is cool down. During the cool down Nagato is killed. 
It's irrelevant if the slash is done from afar or not, the shockwave will be created regardless. Also Madara has full knowledge of Rinnegan's abilities so he will do what is necessary to counter them.


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## kayz (Apr 4, 2019)

Woodward said:


> PS per slash = mountain, multiple slash = multi-mountains. CST = city busting (Konoha is measured from 40km to 100km). A typical mountain, depending on the country's acceptance, is 300m-1.2km. The total unit of energy CST produces is simply _far, far, far_ more than what PS can produce in total. I already drew the line difference between PS's destructive power and how small it is to what CST did.


You have failed to consider:
> the PS feat that sliced the mountain came from a *shockwave* travelling from many miles.
> the fact that the sword produced that shockwave with some of it's Kinetic Energy lost when it smashed through two meteors.
> Durability of meteors and mountains.

It's not crazy to presume a direct PS slash is exponentially more powerful to a good degree than the shockwave feat.




Woodward said:


> CST *would bust PS entirely and kill Madara along with it.* Yeah, it's one Jutsu but it's also a one-shot.


Why would you conclude this? You know that PS won't take all the K.E coming from CST right? as some of it would be going in other directions since it's an omnidirectional attack.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 4, 2019)

Perfect Susano said:


> Perfect Susano'o chops CT. Chou Shinra Tensei isn't breaking Perfect Susano'o at all let alone killing Madara when it didn't even kill Tsunade and Katsuyu was enough to protect people from it.


So your favourite character is...the perfect Susanoo 
That's weird...


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## Raiken (Apr 4, 2019)

Prime Nagato w/ Full Mobility is a force to be reckoned with, unfortunately we've never really seen it so we have to imagine it.


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## dergeist (Apr 4, 2019)

Zembie said:


> ignore his cute onion eyes.



Potential ava pic


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## dergeist (Apr 4, 2019)

Wrecked Baloney said:


> I do want to ask, could EMS users make a Susanoo of that PS size? Wouldn't he have used it instead of fusing it with Kyuubi?
> 
> 
> I don't think even EMS Sasuke could make a Susanoo of that size until he got Sage power.
> ...



Madara can, Sasuke's PS is a quite small.

Madara didn't fuse perfect Susanoo with Kurama he used Iso Susanoo which is just a sheet of armour.

OP, Madara is too fast and a natural beast he fodder stomps Nagato + six paths.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 4, 2019)

blk said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> It's simple: Preta path cannot absorb shockwaves and ST can be used once and then there is cool down. During the cool down Nagato is killed.
> It's irrelevant if the slash is done from afar or not, the shockwave will be created regardless. Also Madara has full knowledge of Rinnegan's abilities so he will do what is necessary to counter them.



I know the Preta Path cannot absorb the shock waves, but you are incorrect about the ST part. Nagato has shown he can hold a ST barrier without it being a one time use thing. There's also the fact Hashirama was able to dodge a PS slash, and Tobirama and the Senju clan in the flashbacks didn't get demolished either; Nagato has a Senju body like the rest of the Senju and his crippled movement feats were impressive to top it off. He was able to surprise and react to Jinchuriki form Bee and Naruto; think about that.

Just to note, ST was held when it blocked the Raikiri dog, when Nagato made a ST barrier after Yahiko died and when he protected Itachi from being hit by Bee's sword. In fact, when Deva was relatively close to Nagato, he didn't just use one burst of ST, he was able to keep it going until the body itself couldn't do anymore. Basically, it isn't an instant use and there's a 5 second delay. Then we also can't ignore his Senju lineage. 

Madara's full knowledge of the Rinnegan powers. Funny you mention that, let us see what Madara has said: Ninjutsu is useless -
 being depleted of most of his chakra and admitting to MS Sasuke being a strong opponent 

Shikaku's proposed, and one of Kurama's proposed counters are something he could consider; going CQC without jutsu- but that ignore the rest of the Rinnegan's abilities like Demon Path which the DB says makes it perfect to counter CQC. It also doesn't account for abilities like Deva/Human etc.

Kurama's other counter is probably ideal, which is to use Ninjutsu at the last minute, which worked when Oonoki took out the Madara clones and harmed Edo Madara. But then, Nagato has a ton of his own powerful Ninjutsu (enough to make Jiraiya go into SM and to consider Animal Path beneath Nagato's powers).

Basically, here are the flaws with the Madara arguments I've seen:

1. They seem to ignore Nagato's attributes (Senju lineage, speed and ST's qualities)

2. The "Madara knows about the Rinnegan powers" fails to acknowledge that Madara himself basically called the eye unstoppable as it forces CQC, but then it also ignores there are other powers which make CQC irrelevant.

3. The Madara arguments presume Madara is going to use the PS slashes like it is using battle ropes to train in the shinobi gym. Literally no PS user has ever done this in battle:

a. Madara did it once to demo PS and he was going to hit the Gokage directly with the blade.
b. Sasuke didn't spam slashes on the CT shower, he was literally slashing through them with the actual blades.
c. Kakashi didn't even spam the slashes against Kaguya, he was going to attack her with the blade directly. 

Are you saying Nagato is a completely different beast to the Gokage, Hashirama, Shinjudara using MT and Kaguya that Madara will need to radically change how PS is used to fight?

That's like us saying Nagato will summon Gedo Mazo and have use 1-9 chakra dragons to absorb the chakra from PS and Madara. Like Madara, it'd be within Nagato's power, but we know he doesn't fight like that.


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## Sufex (Apr 4, 2019)

Wrecked Baloney said:


> I'm surprised there isn't more genjutsu arguments.



Doesn't rennegan neg sharingan genjutsu?


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 4, 2019)

Woodward said:


> PS per slash = mountain, multiple slash = multi-mountains. CST = city busting (Konoha is measured from 40km to 100km). A typical mountain, depending on the country's acceptance, is 300m-1.2km. The total unit of energy CST produces is simply _far, far, far_ more than what PS can produce in total. I already drew the line difference between PS's destructive power and how small it is to what CST did.
> 
> CST would bust PS entirely and kill Madara along with it. Yeah, it's one Jutsu but it's also a one-shot.



 That just proves the AoE is bigger, not that the blast is pound for pound stronger than a PS slash.

 No one gives a shit anyways when PS can tank CST which can likely only be used once and requires time to mold the chakra necessary for it while Madara can just spam PS shockwaves until Nagato's dead.


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## dergeist (Apr 4, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Doesn't rennegan neg sharingan genjutsu?



Nope otherwise lord Soloking wouldnt have sealed Nagato.


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 4, 2019)

dergeist said:


> Nope otherwise lord Soloking wouldnt have sealed Nagato.


Totsuka Blade has nothing to do with genjutsu.. Rinnegan negs Infinite Tsukuyomi, Sharingan genjutsu is doing jackshit


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## dergeist (Apr 4, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Totsuka Blade has nothing to do with genjutsu.. Rinnegan negs Infinite Tsukuyomi, Sharingan genjutsu is doing jackshit



Rinnegan doesn't neg IT, Rinnegan Susanoo negs IT. Last time I checked Nagato didn't have Rinnegan Susanoo. Totsuka blade puts you into a genjutsu world kind of like IT and then seals you away.


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## blk (Apr 5, 2019)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian

Not sure how the fact that Nagato can keep up a ST for some time is relevant.
After he stops it, he's gonna be on cool down and will be killed by PS.

Again Madara doesn't need and won't spam slashes from a distance (even tho he could), the shockwave is created, and will hit Nagato with much greater force infact, even in close range. 

I made the point about knowledge just to underline that Madara won't get caught off guards by Nagato's powers and will act in the right way to counter them.


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## JayK (Apr 5, 2019)

Jesus fucking christ the Nagato wank.



Nagato gets negged by Country Level PS slashes.

Nagato doesn't even come close to that DC, so even if you restrict PS he'd probably still lose to Mads V4 Susano'o.


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## Hazuki (Apr 5, 2019)

JayK said:


> Nagato doesn't even come close to that DC, so even *if you restrict PS he'd probably still lose to Mads V4 Susano'o*.



you really need to re read the manga if you think so ...


my opinion is that even if madara migh win , it won't be easy at all
we don't know how really is strong is nagato with full power heal and mobile with intention to kill and full controle
he has hax jutsu like that dragon ghost that one shot kill
his chibaku tensei is much stronger then we can imagine , even a sick dying exausted  nagato controlling pain was *totally confident* to do a bigger chikabu tensei to capture kyubi 8

so no need to have a high intelligence to understand that a full power chibaku tensei by a full power healh nagato would give Big trouble to even  perfect susanno

that doesn't mean that madara would lose but it won't be an easy fight at all since we really don't know how strong is nagato with  a healh full power full control and full intention to kill

kishimoto always restricted him to a certain degree because of the context


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

blk said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> Not sure how the fact that Nagato can keep up a ST for some time is relevant.
> After he stops it, he's gonna be on cool down and will be killed by PS.



Relevant because it effectively means Nagato could defend himself from a continuous PS slash spam that no PS user has ever used. 
If Madara is going to stay far away and slash spam, Nagato wouldn't be stopping it until he gets close enough to absorb PS; if Madara decides to get close enough, it gets absorbed.



> Again Madara doesn't need and won't spam slashes from a distance (even tho he could), the shockwave is created, and will hit Nagato with much greater force infact, even in close range.



The shock waves created will be from the spam, at least the way the BD thinks it will work. Close range, the man as a cripple was able to keep up with Jinchuriki, being able to touch PS at close range to absorb when he's not shouldn't be difficult. That's not even considering Demon Path mods.



> I made the point about knowledge just to underline that Madara won't get caught off guards by Nagato's powers and will act in the right way to counter them.



Except that isn't good enough. The nature of Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin make it that they will always catch the targets off-guard, this applied even when the targets knew of those powers. The Rinnegan is literally one of the perfect tools to counter most who rely on CQC and chakra.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Woodward (Apr 5, 2019)

blk said:


> @Woodward
> Again, I agree that CST > PS slashes (tho i don't think you are considering that the slash destroyed the line of landscape between PS and the mountains).
> My point is that Nagato's other abilities pale in comparison to that (again excluding CST and CT). So he can pretty much fight PS only with those two one-time skills.
> 
> ...



And Madara's other abilities also pale in comparison to Nagato's. Like how's that relevant? Madara's Ninjutsu is useless here, he gets killed in CQC and all what's left to compare is PS and CST/CT, which the latter prevails in. 

It only tanked 1 TBB. It was destroyed by Chojo Kebutsu, which by measurements is inferior to CST, so it's defiantly going to get busted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Woodward (Apr 5, 2019)

kayz said:


> You have failed to consider:
> > the PS feat that sliced the mountain came from a *shockwave* travelling from many miles.
> > the fact that the sword produced that shockwave with some of it's Kinetic Energy lost when it smashed through two meteors.
> > Durability of meteors and mountains.
> ...



Those shock-waves didn't travel ''miles'' away at all. It travelled like 2-3km at most. PS direct slash was stopped by Base Mokuton, so I don't believe it's that much stronger than the shock-waves, which wouldn't be any relevant when comparing to CST. By power-scaling of PS and CST, PS is only in megaton range and CST is in the gigaton range.

If Nagato uses it on top of PS, then most of the energy output will hit PS, which straight destroys it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Woodward (Apr 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> That just proves the AoE is bigger, not that the blast is pound for pound stronger than a PS slash.
> 
> No one gives a shit anyways when PS can tank CST which can likely only be used once and requires time to mold the chakra necessary for it while Madara can just spam PS shockwaves until Nagato's dead.



This isn't some strength-weight ratio in boxing, lol. More AOE means more power.

PS doesn't tank CST and CST doesn't have charge up.


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## MaruUchiha (Apr 5, 2019)

JayK said:


> Jesus fucking christ the Nagato wank.
> 
> 
> 
> even if you restrict PS he'd probably still lose to Mads V4 Susano'o.


LOL the fucking irony


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 5, 2019)

Woodward said:


> This isn't some strength-weight ratio in boxing, lol. More AOE means more power.
> 
> PS doesn't tank CST and CST doesn't have charge up.



 No it doesn't. More AoE means more power when it comes to using the same move. For instance, a Bijuudama would have more power if it covers a greater area due to the nature of the move, but that's not the case with two entirely different moves. FRS has more AoE than A3's Nukite yet A3's Nukite is clearly stronger pound for pound.
Edit: Another example is the Juubi's Tenpenchii which has significantly more AoE than Nukite yet could barely bust through  V1 cloaks and couldn't mortally wound Naruto through his KCM cloak and was tanked by V2 Susano'o all of which would've been penetrated by Nukite and would've killed all of them.

 Fact is, Nagato's CST feats don't compare to Madara's who destroyed multiple mountains in a single slash which rivals what any of the Bijuu can do with their Bijuudamas as opposed to Nagato whose CST only leveled buildings and small chunks of Katsuyu managed to soak the brunt of the blastwave for those in Konoha who don't have impressive durability feats to begin with.

 Simply referencing AoE doesn't mean jack shit when moves have varying levels of force per unit of area. Some attacks are clearly more concentrated than others. If small chunks of Katsuyu can soak the brunt of the blastwave, PS is tanking it without an issue and then Nagato is on cooldown with no way to counter a PS slash.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Apr 5, 2019)

Madara godstomps.


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## kayz (Apr 5, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Those shock-waves didn't travel ''miles'' away at all. It travelled like 2-3km at most.


I've seen calcs that put that distance 6km+



Woodward said:


> PS direct slash was stopped by Base Mokuton, so I don't believe it's that much stronger than the shock-waves,


Mokuton has never tanked a direct PS slash. It can only hold the sword indicating the Wood Golem is equal in strength to PS but to tank it's strike - No. 

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that "_the shock-waves are not much stronger than a direct PS slash_" from the "_because_ _base Mokuton stopped the sword_". How does Mokuton stopping the sword = the shockwave is not much weaker than the sword.



Woodward said:


> *which wouldn't be any relevant* *when comparing to CST*. By power-scaling of PS and CST, PS is only in megaton range and CST is in the gigaton range.


Yeah it is relevant because it shows you can't really know how powerful a direct strike is and neither can you give an exact figure based on calcs. Therefore this megaton BS you are throwing around is nonsense. So until you calculate the force exerted by the sword on a surface per unit area, stop downplaying.

Again by power scaling, PS throws 
Nagato's best shit into the gutters. PS, Full Kurama and Wood golem were all compared similar in strength, yet CT got busted open by a 50% 8 tail Kurama, lol.



Woodward said:


> If Nagato uses it on top of PS, then most of the energy output will hit PS, which straight destroys it.


CST is omnidirectional. PS won't even take half of that energy at point blank.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Apr 5, 2019)

Lmao. I can't believe people are measuring the energy output of Madara's _casual_ sword swings only on the damage done to mountain tops many kilometers away. Not only did he cleanly slice through them with the blast wave he generated, he lifted the mountain tops up, and also violently fragmented the remains of his meteor too. 



Woodward said:


> It only tanked 1 TBB. It was destroyed by Chojo Kebutsu, which by measurements is inferior to CST, so it's defiantly going to get busted.



What are you, kokodeshide 2.0? Prove that Chojo Kebutsu is inferior to CST. I'll wait. The full length of the Valley of the end is never shown or stated to my knowledge. Not that it matters, as the air pressure is what created the valley, the vast majority of the yield came from the hands colliding with PS, which is many orders of magnitude more durable in tensile strength in comparison to everything Nagato has destroyed. Hell, most of the hands were intercepted by bijuu dama , which I'm 100 percent sure you didn't take into consideration in your calculations.  CST couldn't even kill Tsunade or Ma.
Madara and Hashirama were established to have far more chakra than Nagato in a multitude of ways. This isn't a contest. Nagato admitted inferiority to Kisame in chakra rofl. Meanwhile Hashi and Madara are compared to Ridoku Sennin and Kyuubi on more than one occasion.


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## JayK (Apr 5, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> LOL the fucking irony


Yeah the irony of Nagato's lollipop munchers who'm think that Nagato has any chance against someone who solidly scales into Country Level DC and dura.



Nagato's CT is compareable to KN8 in output while Mads PS is straight up > 100% Kurama.

This shit can't possibly be more clear.

A single PS slash negs this kid.

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## MaruUchiha (Apr 5, 2019)

JayK said:


> Nagato's lollipop munchers


Not even a fan of Nagato in the slightest to even be a Nagato wanker.. Not downplaying Nagato doesn't make you a "lollipop muncher" and I'm sick of you founders wankers pushing that narrative


JayK said:


> who'm think that Nagato has any chance against someone who solidly scales into Country Level DC and dura


What in God's name are you talking about? EMS Madara's full power is Perfect Susanoo which was only able to slice mountaintops and EMS Madara would've fucking died by a sword stab if it wasn't for Izanagi.. Where are you getting these country level stats from?? Hilarious you had the audacity to accuse others of wank


JayK said:


> Mads PS is straight up > 100% Kurama


Which is complete bullshit only pushed by founders wankers. Madara said rivals the Bijuu, if it rivaled Kyuubi he would've said Kyuubi.. What proof can you pull out your ass that Perfect Susanoo = Perfect Kurama?


JayK said:


> A single PS slash negs this kid.


That shit gets Preta Pathed, Shinra Tensei, or his entire Perfect Susanoo gets negged by Gedo Mazo and Spirit Dragons


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## kokodeshide (Apr 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Fact is, Nagato's CST feats don't compare to Madara's who destroyed multiple mountains in a single slash which rivals what any of the Bijuu can do with their Bijuudamas as opposed to Nagato whose CST only leveled buildings and small chunks of Katsuyu managed to soak the brunt of the blastwave for those in Konoha who don't have impressive durability feats to begin with.


Whoa....This is grade A downplaying, my friend. Not only is CST calced higher than any attack either of the founders have, you are also straight up lying about what happened to Konoha. Konoha was turned into a fuckin fishbowl miles deep. Not just buildings destroyed.


ThirdRidoku said:


> What are you, kokodeshide 2.0?


Remember, you are the one who like to pretend that Itachi wants to have challenges and won't kill someone right away because he doesn't want it to be too easy. Your Itachi wank hits Nikushimi levels of ridiculous so don't be shit talkin anyone else..

The burden of proof is on you to prove Chojo is more powerful. Because in terms of visuals, logic, and calcs, it isn't.



JayK said:


> Nagato's CT is compareable to KN8 in output while Mads PS is straight up > 100% Kurama.


If I cover you in dirt and you break out of it, is your power output comparable to the fuckin earth???? That is NOT how it works dude. That is the absolute biggest misrepresentation of a concept that i have ever seen.

And PS is not better than Kurama in anyway shape or form. Kurama has greater speed, Durability and DC by leaps and bounds.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 5, 2019)

The Madara arguments aren't very promising when they need to rely on ignoring the Rinnegan's powers and PS fighting in a way that PS has never fought.


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## JayK (Apr 5, 2019)

MaruUchiha said:


> Not even a fan of Nagato in the slightest to even be a Nagato wanker.. Not downplaying Nagato doesn't make you a "lollipop muncher" and I'm sick of you founders wankers pushing that narrative


Quite funny considering the fact that Nagato is using borrowed power from Madara.



MaruUchiha said:


> What in God's name are you talking about? EMS Madara's full power is Perfect Susanoo which was only able to slice mountaintops


Calls everybody + their mom a Founder wanker and proceeds to downplay the living shit out of PS which was able to fight fairly on par with SM Hashi's Mokuton which again was able to deal with 100% Kurama and restrained V2 Juubi for a bit.





MaruUchiha said:


> EMS Madara would've fucking died by a sword stab if it wasn't for Izanagi


A sword stab from another top tier.



Nothing inconsistent there so far.



MaruUchiha said:


> Where are you getting these country level stats from?? Hilarious you had the audacity to accuse others of wank




Scroll down the comments. 1.5 Teratons by lowballing the living fuck out of EMS Madara + they are far more concentrated than BB due to being cutting attacks. Nagato (aka Mr. Gigaton) ain't competing with that shit in his dreams.

Best part is, that it's all based on actual manga panels so cry about it all you want.



Hilarious how you accuse others of talking shit when you're the one who doesn't want to accept facts.



MaruUchiha said:


> That shit gets Preta Pathed, Shinra Tensei, or his entire Perfect Susanoo gets negged by Gedo Mazo and Spirit Dragons


Yes Preta will absorb Country Level physical strikes, Island Level ST and CT will negate Country Level PS while Gedo totally won't get oneshot by yet another slash.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 5, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Whoa....This is grade A downplaying, my friend. Not only is CST calced higher than any attack either of the founders have, you are also straight up lying about what happened to Konoha. Konoha was turned into a fuckin fishbowl miles deep. Not just buildings destroyed.



 Those calcs are based on the AoE of the attack. Regardless, your argument is irrelevant because it doesn't contradict the fact Madara's PS pound for pound was stronger than CST. The fact that shinobi with no durability feats managed to survive the attack when layered under a small chunk of Katsuyu supports this. Creating a crater that large is irrelevant when the Juubi's Tenpenchii formed an even larger crater yet Naruto's KCM cloak soaked the brunt of the attack despite the fact that a direct hit from V1 Raikage can wound him and a direct hit from V2 Raikage can kill him. This, all while KCM Naruto is siphoning his chakra to the V1 cloaks to ensure the Alliance survived which made Naruto's cloak even weaker.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




His argument is predicated on faulty reasoning and a misused calculation and I can't believe you're not seeing it. By feats and statements alone, Madara's PS is far stronger. The calculation is irrelevant when the its force pound for pound is much weaker than what is displayed by Madara's PS. By calcs, you can literally conclude that Naruto's FRS is stronger than Madara's PS which is a load of shit.


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## Woodward (Apr 5, 2019)

I'm only gonna reply to only one person after this post. Not gonna waste my time writing wall texts addressing 4 people at once.

@UchihaX28

Then you don't know how explosions work in the first place. An explosion has a radius - within that radius the energy is distributed in a way indicating where each range is the strongest. All you did was cherry-pick some irrelevant examples. By your stupid ass logic, PS slashes are stronger than Jubi TBB, because apparently the slashes are focused whereas the TBB is spread-out. Lol, that doesn't even make sense fictionally or scientifically.



PS would slashes would only be stronger than CST's end range, but the epicenter of CST blast dwarfs everything PS can ever dream of doing. It flat-out demolished the 70-140km landmass that makes up Konoha. All what PS has ever done was cut mountain tops, and even the Gokage and Hashirama were caught within its shock-wave range came out unharmed, so no, CST >>>>>>>>>>>> mere PS slashes. Go get me scans of PS one-shotting a 100km village then come back.

@kayz

Depends on the legitimacy of those calcs. Even if it was 6km, that still isn't impressive since Konoha's size goes over the 100km by OBD accepted calcs. Burden of proof is on you. Go get me mathematical calculations of PS direct slash energy instead of assuming that it's ''much more powerful''. Until then, PS is only a multi-mountain level, which pales in comparison to CST's country-busing level that makes mountains look like pebbles. I'll just leave scans doing the talk:



Kyubi only got out of CT because it was in the mantle area, and Kurama > PS in every way. By power-scaling, PS slashes are 200-300 megaton while CST is 80 gigaton. Numbers don't lie. Mathematics and feats both say CST >>>>>> PS. Am I supposed to believe you over numbers? Come on now...

@ThirdRidoku

Chojo Kebutsu's feat is destroying a small valley that P1 Naruto and Sasuke can casually run circles around while CST is calculated at 80 gigaton destroyed a +100km landmass of Konoha. So yes, CST >>>> Chojo Kebutsu >>>> PS. PS slashes couldn't kill Hashirama or the Gokage, when they were caught in its swinging range, so PS slashes aren't impressive. Madara and Hashirama having more Chakra than Nagato? Madara and Hashirama being compared to Hagoromo? LOL, last reply you'll get from me. You're a chump.


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## blk (Apr 5, 2019)

@Woodward @Munboy Dracule O'Brian

Well I have to admit and concede that I don't have an effective counter argument against CST calcs. The attack is objectively much more powerful than the slashes and PS was broke by a, supposedly, weaker attack.

Tho something tells me that if Kishi were to draw this fight, Madara would be the last standing. But admittedly feats comes first, hypothetical portrayal second.

Reactions: Like 4


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## kokodeshide (Apr 5, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Those calcs are based on the AoE of the attack


So is Madaras defense. Based on the AoE attack of a TBB.



UchihaX28 said:


> Regardless, your argument is irrelevant because it doesn't contradict the fact Madara's PS pound for pound was stronger than CST.


 Except it isn't. nor does it matter as a sword slash weaker in power is not stopping CST. Especially when BASIC ST stop FRS which is equal in power to a PS slash.



UchihaX28 said:


> The fact that shinobi with no durability feats managed to survive the attack when layered under a small chunk of Katsuyu supports this.


That is a feat for Katsuyu, NOT a way to downplay the attack. This is just proof that she is durable.


UchihaX28 said:


> Creating a crater that large is irrelevant when the Juubi's Tenpenchii formed an even larger crater yet Naruto's KCM cloak soaked the brunt of the attack despite the fact that a direct hit from V1 Raikage can wound him and a direct hit from V2 Raikage can kill him. This, all while KCM Naruto is siphoning his chakra to the V1 cloaks to ensure the Alliance survived which made Naruto's cloak even weaker.


Larger crater? Based on what?
And is it deaper, as the konoha crater is MILES deep.

Plus, the KCM cloak does not have the defense of the KN cloaks. KCM isnt taking Kusanagi to the stomach and flying 200 meters and slamming through tens of meters of rock. without a scratch


UchihaX28 said:


> His argument is predicated on faulty reasoning and a misused calculation and I can't believe you're not seeing it.


I dont even know what you are talking about. I am simply pointing out the single ridiculous thing you said. Saying it busted some buildings when it carved a fuckin canyon is downplay on another level dude.


UchihaX28 said:


> By feats and statements alone, Madara's PS is far stronger.


By feats it is not. and by statements it is not. what are you referencing.



UchihaX28 said:


> The calculation is irrelevant when the its force pound for pound is much weaker than what is displayed by Madara's PS. By calcs, you can literally conclude that Naruto's FRS is stronger than Madara's PS which is a load of shit.



Thats doesn't make sense dude. ST can block PS level hits. meaning, CST is going to barrel through the strike with no issues.


blk said:


> @Woodward @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> Well I have to admit and concede that I don't have an effective counter argument against CST calcs. The attack is objectively much more powerful than the slashes and PS was broke by a, supposedly, weaker attack.
> 
> Tho something tells me that if Kishi were to draw this fight, Madara would be the last standing. But admittedly feats comes first, hypothetical portrayal second.


Wow, well said. props to you, bruv.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Woodward (Apr 5, 2019)

blk said:


> @Woodward @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> Well I have to admit and concede that I don't have an effective counter argument against CST calcs. The attack is objectively much more powerful than the slashes and PS was broke by a, supposedly, weaker attack.
> 
> Tho something tells me that if Kishi were to draw this fight, Madara would be the last standing. But admittedly feats comes first, hypothetical portrayal second.



Even going by portrayal, Nagato is above EMS Madara. 

Nagato's hype:

-Nagato is worshipped by Amagekure as a God.
-Nagato is called the 3rd Sage of Six Paths by Obito.
-Nagato is called invincible and unbeatable by Konan and Obito.

Madara's hype:

-Being equal to Hashirama.
-Strongest Uchiha.

But like you said, feats always come first and they say Nagato beats EMS Madara. The founders are overwanked because of their huge fanbase.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> I'm only gonna reply to only one person after this post. Not gonna waste my time writing wall texts addressing 4 people at once.
> 
> @UchihaX28
> 
> ...



 Honestly, you came back with this nice and detailed response, but it doesn't refute anything I said. I admitted to Bijuudamas having more power the greater area they covered for reasons you stated. The reason why AoE is always compared amongst Bijuudama is because they're the same attack, so we know one that covers a greater area must be stronger. None of what you said really matters here because CST is not an explosion nor is Madara's PS shockeaves, so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up in the first place. This is common knowledge.

 All you're doing is sugar-coating things. No one gives a shit that it covers 70-140km of landmass because that refers to the area that CST covers and I've already proven that Juubi's Tenpenchii is inferior to Madara's PS let alone A3's Nukite even though it covers at least the same area as CST while leaving a giant crater behind. The reason why we don't blindly adhere to AoE alone is because feats tell us that A3's Nukite and Madara's PS is stronger pound by pound than Juubi's Tenpenchii. This is why AoE is irrelevant here. Instead of referring to the AoE it covers, use a relevant example  and actually present feats as to why CST is stronger than Madara's PS pound for pound because honestly, your logic is fucking garbage.

 When did I claim that Madara's PS >> Juubidama? Did I claim that all moves with higher AoE are weaker pound for pound? I didn't. I claimed that those calcs cannot be used because AoE doesn't tell us how strong moves are pound for pound and there are moves with significantly higher power via feats despite having lower AoE. This has been shown throughout the manga. The reason why CST is weaker is not because of AoE, but because it has vastly inferior feats. The reason why a Juubidama is stronger than Madara's PS is because it has vastly superior feats and portrayal on top of that. Come back to me when you have feats that show CST is stronger pound for pound because the garbage you're spewing about how CST covers a far greater distance is irrelevant here because it's already been debunked.

 Ironic how you refer to the way explosions work and how Kishimoto incorporates it into the manga yet he doesn't understand how pressure works. It's literally basic physics.


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> *Even going by portrayal, Nagato is above EMS Madara. *
> 
> Nagato's hype:
> 
> ...




This isn't true. Madaras been hyped as the final boss from the start; from being mentioned by kyubi at the start of part 2 to having his statue represent sasuke at the climatic VOTE with the huge valley being a result from the original clash. Additionally his Edo is kabutos final trump card that got obito to work with him while nagatos was dealt with earlier on. Pain is sort of a mid end game boss imo. Your calcs may or may not prove your point but anyone who read the manga knows how ridiculously powerful mads was shown to be by kishi. Weather he did it well or fucked up and made nagato stronger is what you're debating but don't pretend nagato was supposed to be stronger than madara.


We can even do a quick comparison: 6 tails naruto withstood pains strongest ST.
8 tails busts out of CT.

mads PS scaled to full 9 tails easy and would neg both of those with raw power.


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## kayz (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Depends on the legitimacy of those calcs. Even if it was 6km, that still isn't impressive since Konoha's size goes over the 100km by OBD accepted calcs.


Lol, so you are using OBD calcs. Let me tell you, there's no accepted calc in the OBD where Konoha's size goes above 14km. You can ask @LazyWaka. He does most Naruto calc and knows all accepted calcs. 40 - 120km Konoha does not exist in OBD. Maybe you are quoting Vsbattle.



Woodward said:


> Burden of proof is on you.


No bro, you made the claim of a mere shockwave being total PS output, given you stupid values in megaton. I posited that that value is flawed. It's that simple.



Woodward said:


> Go get me mathematical calculations of PS direct slash energy instead of assuming that it's ''much more powerful''.


Don't be dense bro. I've stated it's unquantifiable to measure the output of a direct PS slash. But to say the shockwave of a physical strike is the total output per unit area is scientifically and logically flawed.
It's just like me throwing a slap at someone's face that missed. You then judge the total force of my slap based on the gentle breeze that touched that person's face.
Or maybe, you'd say Naruto is only city block level when he punched Toneri and created a building sized shockwave on the moon in the last.



Woodward said:


> Until then, PS is *only a multi-mountain level*, which pales in comparison to CST's country-busing level that makes mountains look like pebbles. I'll just leave scans doing the talk:


Your headcanon.
Oh CST destroying a village is now country busting. I just hope you are not a troll.



Woodward said:


> Kyubi only got out of CT because it was in the mantle area, and Kurama > PS in every way.


Mantle? If u say so, but that was 50% 8 tails lol. Not even half of it's power yet Nagato was coughing up blood from trying to contain that Kurama with CT.
The Wood Golem was said to be on par with Kurama (100%) in physical strength and PS matched it.



Woodward said:


> By power-scaling, PS slashes are 200-300 megaton while CST is 80 gigaton. Numbers don't lie. Mathematics and feats both say CST >>>>>> PS. Am I supposed to believe you over numbers? Come on now...


Your mathematics is useless and needs a revision. It's a value gotten from a mere shockwave. PS attack is not a shockwave, it's a sword strike making the numbers you are given us wack and heavily downplayed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Woodward (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> This isn't true. Madaras been hyped as the final boss from the start; from being mentioned by kyubi at the start of part 2 to having his statue represent sasuke at the climatic VOTE with the huge valled being a result from the original clash. Additionally his Edo is kabutos final trump card that got obito to work with him while nagatos was dealt with earlier on. while pain Is a sort of a mid end game boss. Your calcs may or may not prove your point but anyone who read the manga knows how ridiculously powerful mads was shown to be by kishi. Weather he did it well or fucked up and made nagato stronger is what you're debating but don't pretend nagato was supposed to be stronger than madara.
> 
> 
> We can even do a quick comaprison: 6 tails naruto withstood pains strongest st.
> ...



You need to improve your reading comprehension skill, mate. Everyone who read and actually comprehended the material knew Sasuke was gonna be the final boss, not Madara. Madara was just a pawn that was disposed off. And not only that, we're talking about EMS Madara and you're bringing me portrayal of Jubi Madara when it's not what's being debated here to begin with.

Haha...


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> You need to improve your reading comprehension skill, mate. Everyone who read and actually comprehended the material knew Sasuke was gonna be the final boss, not Madara. Madara was just a pawn that was disposed off. And not only that, we're talking about EMS Madara and you're bringing me portrayal of Jubi Madara when it's not what's being debated here to begin with.
> 
> Haha...


You realise I didnt mean that literally right? I posted "i see madara as the final boss, while pain is sort of mid end boss" and gave you several reasons; like it being represented in the timeline, used Edo EMS madara as an example, rennegan madara is stronger but that doesnt matter in this fight; it was just an example for a point i was making. I was on my phone so grammar may have been wrong, but you really need to be less of an asshole in debates, not everyone is gonna have your opinion and that doesnt make them a 'chump' stop resorting to ad hominens it just makes people for a hostile debating enviroment.


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## Woodward (Apr 6, 2019)

kayz said:


> Lol, so you are using OBD calcs. Let me tell you, there's no accepted calc in the OBD where Konoha's size goes above 14km. You can ask @LazyWaka. He does most Naruto calc and knows all accepted calcs. 40 - 120km Konoha does not exist in OBD. Maybe you are quoting Vsbattle.



Mate, don't talk about things you don't know about. You're acting like you know all about the OBD, when you really don't. The Forest of Death is literally 10km:



Where the fuck did you get this 14km figure from? The OBD didn't even say that.You can fit 10 of Forest of Death within this portion of Konoha:


150 x 75 
10km x 10 = 100km. Doesn't even take calcs for this, just by eyeballing it you can conclude Konoha is over 100km easily. And this is just a portion in the scan, not even the full size of the village. Your downplaying here is pathetic. Why can't you just accept Nagato's destructive feats >>> the founders?



kayz said:


> No bro, you made the claim of a mere shockwave being total PS output, given you stupid values in megaton. I posited that that value is flawed. It's that simple.



No, I posted that the manga has shown PS total output is only multi-mountain. It's literally in the manga. Do you read it? You're the one assuming PS direct slash is considerably more powerful than its shock-waves to the point it makes PS a country buster, lmao. Go get me evaluated calcs instead getting figures and expect us to believe it.



kayz said:


> Don't be dense bro. I've stated it's unquantifiable to measure the output of a direct PS slash. But to say the shockwave of a physical strike is the total output per unit area is scientifically and logically flawed.



It's not unquantifiable, really. The durability of Base Hashirama's Mokuton is more or less that of a mountain, yet Mokuton hands caught a PS direct slash quite easily, so your notion of direct slash being above the shock-waves is false by what's shown. You're the one being dense with your silly fanfics. Even as this discussion prolongs, you still haven't proven how PS slashes are superior to CST. Not like you've got a proof anyway.



kayz said:


> Your headcanon.
> Oh CST destroying a village is now country busting. I just hope you are not a troll.



Meant to say island.



kayz said:


> Mantle? If u say so, but that was 50% 8 tails lol. Not even half of it's power yet Nagato was coughing up blood from trying to contain that Kurama with CT.
> The Wood Golem was said to be on par with Kurama (100%) in physical strength and PS matched it.



It's basic knowledge planetoids have layers, Kurama was in the weakest layer. Yes, coughing up after having blasted a +100km village that's bigger than VOTE. Kurama >> PS in everything. Don't care about databook silly hyperboles. You're also gonna need to prove 50% Kurama is physically weaker than full Kurama.



kayz said:


> Your mathematics is useless and needs a revision. It's a value gotten from a mere shockwave. PS attack is not a shockwave, it's a sword strike making the numbers you are given us wack and heavily downplayed.



Not my maths. It's the work done by OBD that is accepted and legitimate in every fictional forum. I'll take numbers over your invalid unbacked opinion anytime. If you've got a problem then create your own calcs and have them evaluate it to convince us all instead of crying about how all of it is wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Woodward (Apr 6, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> You realise I didnt mean that literally right? I posted "i see madara as the final boss, while pain is sort of mid end boss" and gave you several reasons; like it being represented in the timeline, used Edo EMS madara as an example, rennegan madara is stronger but that doesnt matter in this fight; it was just an example for a point i was making. I was on my phone so grammar may have been wrong, but you really need to be less of an asshole in debates, not everyone is gonna have your opinion and that doesnt make them a 'chump' stop resorting to ad hominens it just makes people for a hostile debating enviroment.



I didn't even insult you. I only called ThirdRikudo a chump, because of the things he said are only said by idiots. You can express your opinion, but when you are objectively wrong like you are now, don't moan about how if someone calls you. So grow up.


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## Sufex (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> I didn't even insult you. I only called ThirdRikudo a chump, because of the things he said are only said by idiots. You can express your opinion, but when you are objectively wrong like you are now, don't moan about how if someone calls you. So grow up.



>calling multiple people idiots and chumps over disagreeing on a work of fiction on a naruto forum
> hey dude chill out no need to name call and be a prick
>You need to grow up dude!

Ok man


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## Kai (Apr 6, 2019)

Nagato can’t even beat Rinnegan Obito or 100% Nine Tails, a toy of the Founders, yet he is pit out of his league against the Founders?

Super Almighty Push and Planetary Devastation put him near death’s door. Nagato needs both *just to keep up.

*


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## Woodward (Apr 6, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Honestly, you came back with this nice and detailed response, but it doesn't refute anything I said. I admitted to Bijuudamas having more power the greater area they covered for reasons you stated. The reason why AoE is always compared amongst Bijuudama is because they're the same attack, so we know one that covers a greater area must be stronger. None of what you said really matters here because CST is not an explosion nor is Madara's PS shockeaves, so I'm not sure why you're bringing this up in the first place. This is common knowledge.
> 
> All you're doing is sugar-coating things. No one gives a shit that it covers 70-140km of landmass because that refers to the area that CST covers and I've already proven that Juubi's Tenpenchii is inferior to Madara's PS let alone A3's Nukite even though it covers at least the same area as CST while leaving a giant crater behind. The reason why we don't blindly adhere to AoE alone is because feats tell us that A3's Nukite and Madara's PS is stronger pound by pound than Juubi's Tenpenchii. This is why AoE is irrelevant here. Instead of referring to the AoE it covers, use a relevant example  and actually present feats as to why CST is stronger than Madara's PS pound for pound because honestly, your logic is fucking garbage.
> 
> ...



Again with your silly pound for pound argument that doesn't apply even in the physics you're mentioning. This isn't boxing fighter comparison, lol. It's comparison between which attack is stronger, and the stronger one is the one that deals more damage. How do we evaluate damage capacity: Area of damage and durability of materials it damaged.

-PS cuts mountain tops, therefore its AOE and damage capacity is only mountain level. Only megaton.

-CST levelled +100km village; the landmass and all what's on top of it (buildings + trees) that stretches over +100km requires tens and tens of gigaton energy.

You can't possibly be stupid enough to believe mountain are more durable than Konoha. It's like comparing rockets missiles (PS slashes) to a nuke (CST).

Don't come back to me with your silly boxing fighter pound for pound comparison.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 6, 2019)

The fuck is this nonsense I'm reading about CST being able to bust Madara's CBS/PS? Madara's CBS tanked a TBB without any notable damage sustained whatsoever. So unless someone thinks CST > TBB this nonsense that Nagato is one-shotting Madara's CBS needs to stop.


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## Onyx Emperor (Apr 6, 2019)

Will CST even leave a crack on Madara's _*susanoo ribs*_? Inb4 that thing didn't kill those under Tsunade's slime protection.


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## kayz (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Mate, don't talk about things you don't know about. You're acting like you know all about the OBD,


I've been in the OBD longer than you fam. It's apparent by rubbish you are spilling. Even the OBD you are so desperate about mentioning, considers Madara above Nagato kiddo. If you are in doubt check their respective links

4

4

Nagato is island level with CT and *probably* with his strongest CST, Madara is small country with PS.



Woodward said:


> when you really don't. The Forest of Death is literally 10km:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GIVE ME the link to this accepted OBD calc, if u can't do that you're just blabbering what does not exist here.



Woodward said:


> No, I posted that the manga has shown PS total output is only multi-mountain. It's literally in the manga. Do you read it? You're the one assuming PS direct slash is considerably more powerful than its shock-waves to the point it makes PS a country buster, lmao. Go get me evaluated calcs instead getting figures and expect us to believe it.


I believe I've given my opinion about this in my previous response. You can whine all about calcs but fact is; if something is incalculable/unquantifiable, it just is. It's better than blindly following wrong and biased values in your case, that totally spits in the face of science.



Woodward said:


> It's not unquantifiable, really.


It is. Stop grasping at straws.



Woodward said:


> The durability of Base Hashirama's Mokuton is more or less that of a mountain,


Assumption #1



Woodward said:


> yet Mokuton hands caught a PS direct slash quite easily, so your notion of direct slash being above the shock-waves is false by what's shown.


When you follow assumption #1, this is the biased notion your mental faculties come up with.



Woodward said:


> You're the one being dense with your silly fanfics. Even as this discussion prolongs, you still haven't proven how PS slashes are superior to CST. Not like you've got a proof anyway.


I wasn't even trying to prove PS > CST neither am I accepting your CST > PS because your faulty megaton calc throws away the main attack and focuses on collateral damage.



Woodward said:


> It's basic knowledge planetoids have layers, Kurama was in the weakest layer. Yes, coughing up after having blasted a +100km village that's bigger than VOTE. Kurama >> PS in everything. Don't care about databook silly hyperboles.


Oh I can see clearer now, you throw away critical databook info. then come here and start blabbering megaton - gigaton, 40km - 150Km rubbish and expect to b taken seriously.



Woodward said:


> You're also gonna need to prove 50% Kurama is physically weaker than full Kurama.


I don't need to prove anything. If you don't know that more chakra given to an individual boosts physical stats, then I can tell, you still have ways to go in comprehending the Naruto manga.



Woodward said:


> Not my maths.
> It's the work done by OBD that is accepted and legitimate in every fictional forum.
> I'll take numbers over your invalid unbacked opinion anytime.


Your headache.
Provide the OBD link to this accepted calc in which I would call up a mod from there and ask if it's been accepted. If you can't do that, you are wasting ur time.



Woodward said:


> If you've got a problem then create your own calcs and have them evaluate it to convince us all instead of crying about how all of it is wrong.


Calcs this, calcs that. Let me tell you one rule you seem to not know. Maybe you are new to internet battle sites.
In a standard battledome forum, when calcs or Author's portrayal and statements are brought forward in an argument, Author's portrayal and statement prevails.

It's why in the OBD, EMS Madara will always be regarded higher than Nagato. You think I lie, check out their respective OBD character profiles. This is because they recognize that every calc, no matter how solid it looks, can have limitations and get faulty.

Edit: Re-reading, I came off rude a bit. Cleaned it to a degree


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## ThirdRidoku (Apr 6, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Remember, you are the one who like to pretend that Itachi wants to have challenges and won't kill someone right away because he doesn't want it to be too easy. Your Itachi wank hits Nikushimi levels of ridiculous so don't be shit talkin anyone else..



ROFL, it isn't wank if I proved my claims. The "Itachi wank" you speak of is well supported by  statements and feats from the manga and databook. You on the other hand aren't a man of your word.  You claimed you can debate until your fingers bleed. I pushed you into a corner and asked for proof, then you lied to me and ran away, because said proof didn't exist.


Itachi objectively beat Nagato way too easily. You literally lied to me since we first started that discussion. you claimed Nagato can't sense a giant chakra ghost a mere 40 feet away because Kabuto was ignorant of the fact that Nagato could activate sensory mode, ignoring the fact that non -sensors have sensed dense/concentrated chakra even from miles away since the beginning up until the end of the manga. I wanted to see how long you would keep your lies, after you ironically accused me of lying ROFL, over something that I was factually right about. Even without the chakra sensing aspect, Nagato's eyes were clearly looking up at the gourd/blade as it pierced through him. His vision wasn't anywhere near as obscured as Itachi, who was standing at the epicenter of the smoke. Itachi already has feats of fighting completely blind, such as when he duked it out with Orochimaru and the hydra. So either way, he embarrassed Nagato.

He took a huge shit on Nagato's shared vision. Smart enough and skilled enough to throw 22 kunai (relatively small objects so it's harder to track them)  with high velocity and with a curved trajectory in order to get them all into Nagato's natural blindspots, despite the fact that the kunai were all directly in their visual field. If that wasn't bad enough, Nagato's security cameras went black, which would have tipped him off to the fact that Itachi was coming. Yet he couldn't react to a giant chakra ghost coming from his right (which even non -sensors would be able to sense) despite the fact that a giant ass hand was also in the field of his vision as well. All it takes is an instinct to activate Preta. He couldn't do it.

He even feinted Nagato despite being literally inches away from him AND while being in physical contact by virtue of Nagato holding his neck. That's even more embarrasing for Nagato.






Woodward said:


> Chojo Kebutsu's feat is destroying a small valley that P1 Naruto and Sasuke can casually run circles around while CST is calculated at 80 gigaton destroyed a +100km landmass of Konoha. So yes, CST >>>> Chojo Kebutsu >>>> PS. PS slashes couldn't kill Hashirama or the Gokage, when they were caught in its swinging range, so PS slashes aren't impressive. Madara and Hashirama having more Chakra than Nagato? Madara and Hashirama being compared to Hagoromo? LOL, last reply you'll get from me. You're a chump.






kokodeshide said:


> The burden of proof is on you to prove Chojo is more powerful. Because in terms of visuals, logic, and calcs, it isn't.


@kokodeshide looks like @Woodward is your 2.0 after all. I ask you for proof and all both you have is fluff.

Prove that the valley is small when it is shown to endlessly extend into the distance and is stated to be a border between nations. Give me a length and quit beating around the bush. It's shameful how you cowards avoid the question yet make the positive claim that the CST crater is greater in size. Until then, There is no visual comparison to make, and thus your points are invalid.

PS slashes didn't kill Hashirama because he was never hit by the full brunt of them.
Gokage were standing 90 degrees away from* the direction* of Madara's slash, as he aimed to the moutains on his right,  but nice try though. The Kage still got sent flying. And they were impressed, and since they experienced and witnessed the power of the slash firsthand, their opinions>than yours.

Hashirama has more chakra than BM Naruto, keep trolling kids. Madara scales to his level of chakra so at minimum he is on par with BM naruto as well.
Nagato admitted inferiority to Kisame in chakra on Panel, trolls, and Kisame is no where near kyuubi levels of chakra.
How is a technique that failed to kill Ma or Tsunade even scratching PS or Hashirama ROFL.
Hashirama legit grabbed the full kyuubi, made it close it's eyes and roar from the pain, and held it in place with raw physical strength before suppressing it.
Hashirama shit diff'd the edo tensei control via raw chakra reserves, meanwhile Nagato was shit' diff'd. Madara scales to Hashi so he would do the same.
Weakened Edo Madara dropped country level meteors on the alliance. Hashirama carves up the landscape better than that Madara by Madara's own admission.

The only chumps here are those who ignore manga facts in favor of their biased propaganda.  When the difference in chakra is great as that between Madara/Hashi and Nagato, the techniques in this case don't matter sufficient they are both in the same category of attack. It's an unbalanced playing field. Hashi/Madara stomp in firepower, based on logic, feats, and portrayal. No amount of downplay is changing that. Want to actually change that? Prove your claims with actual facts.


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## Woodward (Apr 6, 2019)

kayz said:


> I've been in the OBD longer than you fam. It's apparent by rubbish you are spilling. Even the OBD you are so desperate about mentioning, considers Madara above Nagato kiddo. If you are in doubt check their respective links
> 
> 4
> 
> ...



That's a mistake on their part, since PS is shown to only to be multi-mountain level. Island can be a country or continent (Australia) anyway. That doesn't prove anything, since by the manga's powerscaling Nagato is above EMS Madara.



kayz said:


> GIVE ME the link to this accepted OBD calc, if u can't do that you're just blabbering what does not exist here.



Don't even have to. I already shown you the Forest of Death is 10km by Kishi's words, and did the scaling myself which you ignored out of inability to refute.



kayz said:


> Assumption #1



Mokuton Golem and Mokuton Hobi were blown apart by a TBB, which is only a mountain level. 



kayz said:


> I wasn't even trying to prove PS > CST neither am I accepting your CST > PS because your faulty megaton calc throws away the main attack and focuses on collateral damage.



The collateral damage is the result of the attack's energy. How would you deduce an attack's energy potential? By the area of damage and the durability of the materials within it's area of damage. This isn't rocket science. PS is a multi-mountain level because all it has cut were mountains and materials with comparable durability to mountains. You don't even know what you're discussing with me at this point, so this will be my last post here.



kayz said:


> Calcs this, calcs that. Let me tell you one rule you seem to not know. Maybe you are new to internet battle sites.
> In a standard battledome forum, when calcs or Author's portrayal and statements are brought forward in an argument, Author's portrayal and statement prevails.



The same portrayal that names Nagato as the 3rd Six Paths, while EMS Madara's hype being strongest Uchiha. So portrayal certainly wins, I agree.


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## Woodward (Apr 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> ROFL, it isn't wank if I proved my claims. The "Itachi wank" you speak of is well supported by  statements and feats from the manga and databook. You on the other hand aren't a man of your word.  You claimed you can debate until your fingers bleed. I pushed you into a corner and asked for proof, then you lied to me and ran away, because said proof didn't exist.
> 
> 
> Itachi objectively beat Nagato way too easily. You literally lied to me since we first started that discussion. you claimed Nagato can't sense a giant chakra ghost a mere 40 feet away because Kabuto was ignorant of the fact that Nagato could activate sensory mode, ignoring the fact that non -sensors have sensed dense/concentrated chakra even from miles away since the beginning up until the end of the manga. I wanted to see how long you would keep your lies, after you ironically accused me of lying ROFL, over something that I was factually right about. Even without the chakra sensing aspect, Nagato's eyes were clearly looking up at the gourd/blade as it pierced through him. His vision wasn't anywhere near as obscured as Itachi, who was standing at the epicenter of the smoke. Itachi already has feats of fighting completely blind, such as when he duked it out with Orochimaru and the hydra. So either way, he embarrassed Nagato.
> ...


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## kokodeshide (Apr 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> ROFL, it isn't wank if I proved my claims. The "Itachi wank" you speak of is well supported by statements and feats from the manga and databook. You on the other hand aren't a man of your word. You claimed you can debate until your fingers bleed. I pushed you into a corner and asked for proof, then you lied to me and ran away, because said proof didn't exist.
> 
> 
> Itachi objectively beat Nagato way too easily. You literally lied to me since we first started that discussion. you claimed Nagato can't sense a giant chakra ghost a mere 40 feet away because Kabuto was ignorant of the fact that Nagato could activate sensory mode, ignoring the fact that non -sensors have sensed dense/concentrated chakra even from miles away since the beginning up until the end of the manga. I wanted to see how long you would keep your lies, after you ironically accused me of lying ROFL, over something that I was factually right about. Even without the chakra sensing aspect, Nagato's eyes were clearly looking up at the gourd/blade as it pierced through him. His vision wasn't anywhere near as obscured as Itachi, who was standing at the epicenter of the smoke. Itachi already has feats of fighting completely blind, such as when he duked it out with Orochimaru and the hydra. So either way, he embarrassed Nagato.
> ...


Bruh, you dont debate. you literally dont know how burden of proof works.

90 percent of what you just said here doesnt mean a damn thing. It hurts the eyes to real. When you want to actually debate and not just write poetic garbage, im right here, bro.

Still waiting for you to show me the evidence that Itachi wanted a challenge.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Prove that the valley is small when it is shown to endlessly extend into the distance and is stated to be a border between nations. Give me a length and quit beating around the bush. It's shameful how you cowards avoid the question yet make the positive claim that the CST crater is greater in size. Until then, There is no visual comparison to make, and thus your points are invalid.


Are you literally retarded? WE DONT HAVE TO PROVE THAT, YOU DO. That is your argument. Learn how burden of proof works.

And guess what even when you multiplied you Hashirama calc by 1000, it STILL wasnt more than CST. Learn. To. Debate.


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## kayz (Apr 6, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Mokuton Golem and Mokuton Hobi were blown apart by a TBB, which is only a mountain level.


Bro, u made blunders and fallacy statements in that your write up, I won't even look up that post twice.

But this statement you made in particular, 

What tanked and shielded Hashirama from the bijuudama blast?
a. Mokuton
b. Mokuton
c. Mokuton

Hope I made it easy enough.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 6, 2019)

Alive Madara has a shunshin that can pretty much blitz War-Arc SM Naruto. He casually runs up to Nagato and punches his head open before he can react. The end.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 7, 2019)

blk said:


> @Woodward @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> Well I have to admit and concede that I don't have an effective counter argument against CST calcs. The attack is objectively much more powerful than the slashes and PS was broke by a, supposedly, weaker attack.
> 
> Tho something tells me that if Kishi were to draw this fight, Madara would be the last standing. But admittedly feats comes first, hypothetical portrayal second.





Woodward said:


> Even going by portrayal, Nagato is above EMS Madara.
> 
> Nagato's hype:
> 
> ...





FoboBemo said:


> This isn't true. Madaras been hyped as the final boss from the start; from being mentioned by kyubi at the start of part 2 to having his statue represent sasuke at the climatic VOTE with the huge valley being a result from the original clash. Additionally his Edo is kabutos final trump card that got obito to work with him while nagatos was dealt with earlier on. Pain is sort of a mid end game boss imo. Your calcs may or may not prove your point but anyone who read the manga knows how ridiculously powerful mads was shown to be by kishi. Weather he did it well or fucked up and made nagato stronger is what you're debating but don't pretend nagato was supposed to be stronger than madara.
> 
> 
> We can even do a quick comparison: 6 tails naruto withstood pains strongest ST.
> ...



Even if you bring portrayal into this, the Rinnegan's portrayal is still enough to make a case for Nagato. Madara was hyped as the final boss _*because *_he got the Rinnegan. Madara basically became a vessel containing the founders' powers (his and Hashirama's) and obtained an even stronger power (Rinnegan) as a result. 

Madara as a whole > Nagato. But we can't forget the significance of the Rinnegan, even Madara went out of his way to get the Rinnegan. In fact, when he saw Sasuke's EMS, he said they would be good eyes to use until he got the Rinnegan. Nagato's basically just a representation of what the Rinnegan is (without being a natural user, of course); Madara likely had his Rinnegan abilities capped like Nagato's as an Edo and look at how their limited abilities crippled their foes to the point Kishi had to make Kabuto/Madara forget a lot of them to progress the story.

This isn't saying Nagato>Madara, this is saying Rinnegan>EMS. Most, especially posters from the old days who are still active, of these Madara arguments come from those who still cannot accept Rinnegan>EMS (yes, there were people who used to passionately argue EMS>Rinnegan).


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## ThirdRidoku (Apr 11, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Bruh, you dont debate. you literally dont know how burden of proof works.
> 
> 90 percent of what you just said here doesnt mean a damn thing. It hurts the eyes to real. When you want to actually debate and not just write poetic garbage, im right here, bro.
> 
> *Still waiting for you to show me the evidence that Itachi wanted a challenge*



I already did.  He one shotted Nagato from over 40 feet away, without a mental reaction. The smokescreen means jack when there is giant yellow blade coming out of it with 30 feet of distance between where it emerged and where Nagato was standing, so Nagato saw it just fine, not to mention it was thrusted by a giant, , dense, and concentrated chakra (so concentrated that the chakra itself exudes the user's emotions and is visible to the naked eye) construct, which non sensors can sense. Haku was surprised that it was possible for naruto's kyuubi chakra to manifest itself, and it was made apparent that even Zabuza and Kakashi could sense it from several meters away.  I made a whole thread on this , kid. The fact that Kakashi also identified the chakra as that of the Kyuubi means that during the night of the nine tails attack 16 years prior, teenage Kakashi could sense Kurama's chakra. We know Kakashi isn't a sensor because he couldn't find Zabuza in the mist in neither Part one or Part 2, and in Part 2 he explicitly needed the help of a sensor type to find Zabuza. That proves that non-sensors can only sense visible/dense chakra, but in order to sense regular people who aren't actively moulding lots of chakra you need to be a sensor type, where you can sense chakra with increased sensitivity, precision, accuracy, and detail. Nagato reacted to Naruto and Bee just fine, but couldn't react to Itachi.

Itachi could have thrust his blade forward at any point during that fight, and he only thrusted it once he got bored of Nagato. Sorry, but Nagato is literal trash to Itachi. The same Itachi went on to tell Naruto that a ninja shouldn't take everything on by himself, no matter how powerful they become, kid.


*Spoiler*: _Itachi wanted a challenge _ 











Itachi literally tells you his philosophy on panel. He says something along the same lines in the Kabuto fight as well. Itachi doesn't want to forget about his friends kid. He left Naruto and Bee to take on Nagato so they could be involved. When it was clear they were losing, he intervened and humiliated Nagato twice, kid.  It would have been too easy to just one shot Nagato by himself and take all the credit and just forget about his friends, and he would become like "Madara". Fighting together with Naruto and Bee allowed him to indulge in the fight with them together. He didn't need to do half of what he did.  He could block Chibaku Tensei by himself with Yata and let naruto and Bee get sealed away, and kill Nagato by himself. But he cares about his comrades.




kokodeshide said:


> Are you literally retarded? WE DONT HAVE TO PROVE THAT, YOU DO. That is your argument. Learn how burden of proof works.
> 
> And guess what even when you multiplied you Hashirama calc by 1000, it STILL wasnt more than CST. Learn. To. Debate.




LMAO what a moron. So you don' have to prove your claims now? Learn how to debate, kid. I already quoted your claim .
Your claim is that Nagato's CST crater and Chibaku Tensei crater is larger in volume than Hashirama's crater. You have yet to prove this claim. You calc'd your 300 gigatons and now you are cheering like a dumbass that Nagato is stronger without even measuring the size of Hashirama's crater. You have given neither a qualitative size or quantitative size yet you just magically know Nagato's crater is bigger LMAO. Totally not biased though.


Hashirama's crater just endlessly extends into the distance, kid. NOWHERE in the manga is the full length of his valley shown. The depth and width of the valley are 100 meters a piece, but that is irrelevant because if you actually took a geology course in your life, you would know that the *length of the valley* is where it gets its size from.


*Spoiler*: _SHOW ME WHERE THE VOTE ends _ 













I even marked some the scans to help your dsyfunctional eyes. Show me where the valley cuts off. Kishimoto only shows fragments of the valley at any given point in time, and the valley continues until there isn't any space left on the manga panel. The valley starts at the waterfall with the two statues, then the valley and the river inside of it just flows  due west without an end in site. Good luck giving me a length for the valley, kid.




kokodeshide said:


> And guess what even when you multiplied you Hashirama calc by 1000, it STILL wasnt more than CST. Learn. To. Debate.



This is how I know your biased as shit. I can multiply the calc by 10000, or 100,000, 1,000,000   or 1,000,000,000 and it will be equally subjective, because there isn't a given length or scale for the maps of Konoha. All we know is that the valley is a border between the land of Sound and land of Fire.  The difference between me and you though, is that I'm not banking on a calc for my arguments lmao.  You have no evidence at all for any of your claims, and all you have is your 300 gigaton calc which you have not used in any productive debating capacity, and that's why you have avoided  calcing VOTE of yourself despite wanking the living hell out of calcs lmao. You don't know the length, so concession accepted. So therefore your admitting that there is no physical evidence that Nagato's craters are bigger than Hashi's.  Keep throwing baskets in your own hoop kid.

*Keep saying someone who has less chakra than Kisame *

can output more raw blunt force with ninjutsu than someone who has more chakra than BM naruto and has been repeatedly compared to Kurama.

I'm like a broken record at this point, and you haven't refuted any of the other evidence I gave so no point in me writing them again.


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## Francyst (Apr 11, 2019)

Kai said:


> Nagato can’t even beat Rinnegan Obito or 100% Nine Tails, a toy of the Founders, yet he is pit out of his league against the Founders?
> 
> Super Almighty Push and Planetary Devastation put him near death’s door. Nagato needs both *just to keep up.
> *


So much wrong in such a small post 

Trying to use ABC logic
Thinking Nagato can beat Rinne Obito
Downplaying Kurama when the founders counter Kurama
Failing to understand the title and thinking this is about Pein


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## Stonaem (Apr 11, 2019)

Ever tried slicing a fly, mid air, with a knife?

Do you think shockwaves would help?

Now imagine if said fly has chakra powered jetpacks for evasive assistance?

So for me, Nagato simply dodges the shockwaves, closes in, absorbs.

Also, the hand me down thing only works if Madara is handling something better. The difference between Rineegan and Sgaringan is too great for this to even be an arguement against Nagato

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 11, 2019)

2019 and there are posters who still can't get over Rinnegan>Sharingan. :/


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## kokodeshide (Apr 11, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I already did. He one shotted Nagato from over 40 feet away, without a mental reaction. The smokescreen means jack when there is giant yellow blade coming out of it with 30 feet of distance between where it emerged and where Nagato was standing, so Nagato saw it just fine, not to mention it was thrusted by a giant, , dense, and concentrated chakra (so concentrated that the chakra itself exudes the user's emotions and is visible to the naked eye) construct, which non sensors can sense. Haku was surprised that it was possible for naruto's kyuubi chakra to manifest itself, and it was made apparent that even Zabuza and Kakashi could sense it from several meters away. I made a whole thread on this , kid. The fact that Kakashi also identified the chakra as that of the Kyuubi means that during the night of the nine tails attack 16 years prior, teenage Kakashi could sense Kurama's chakra. We know Kakashi isn't a sensor because he couldn't find Zabuza in the mist in neither Part one or Part 2, and in Part 2 he explicitly needed the help of a sensor type to find Zabuza. That proves that non-sensors can only sense visible/dense chakra, but in order to sense regular people who aren't actively moulding lots of chakra you need to be a sensor type, where you can sense chakra with increased sensitivity, precision, accuracy, and detail. Nagato reacted to Naruto and Bee just fine, but couldn't react to Itachi.
> 
> Itachi could have thrust his blade forward at any point during that fight, and he only thrusted it once he got bored of Nagato. Sorry, but Nagato is literal trash to Itachi. The same Itachi went on to tell Naruto that a ninja shouldn't take everything on by himself, no matter how powerful they become, kid.
> 
> ...


So no proof? You have listed straight up nonsense. None of this is proof itachi wanted a CHALLENGE. It is proof he isn't stupid enough to take on a foe he can't beat by himself. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> LMAO what a moron. So you don' have to prove your claims now? Learn how to debate, kid. I already quoted your claim .
> Your claim is that Nagato's CST crater and Chibaku Tensei crater is larger in volume than Hashirama's crater. You have yet to prove this claim. You calc'd your 300 gigatons and now you are cheering like a dumbass that Nagato is stronger without even measuring the size of Hashirama's crater. You have given neither a qualitative size or quantitative size yet you just magically know Nagato's crater is bigger LMAO. Totally not biased though.
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, I don't have to show that. My claim is the calc for CST is higher than the calc for SS. That I proved. You are claiming the VotE is super long, which have to prove. That is NOT a part of my claim. Get this through your head. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> This is how I know your biased as shit. I can multiply the calc by 10000, or 100,000, 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 and it will be equally subjective, because there isn't a given length or scale for the maps of Konoha. All we know is that the valley is a border between the land of Sound and land of Fire. The difference between me and you though, is that I'm not banking on a calc for my arguments lmao. You have no evidence at all for any of your claims, and all you have is your 300 gigaton calc which you have not used in any productive debating capacity, and that's why you have avoided calcing VOTE of yourself despite wanking the living hell out of calcs lmao. You don't know the length, so concession accepted. So therefore your admitting that there is no physical evidence that Nagato's craters are bigger than Hashi's. Keep throwing baskets in your own hoop kid.
> 
> *Keep saying someone who has less chakra than Kisame *
> 
> can output more raw blunt force with ninjutsu than someone who has more chakra than BM naruto and has been repeatedly compared to Kurama.


Bro, the number speaks for itself. Go ahead and give me a theoretical number for the VotE's length and I'll calc it myself.

Also, deidara has pissant levels of chakra compared to kisame, yet kisame cant destroy nearly as much. That's a bs comparison. Nagato has the Rinnegan. Rinnegan>EMS>MS>3T>Kurama. This is another BS comparison, just because kurama has more chakra doesnt mean he is better in every stat than those who can beat him or those who cant beat him. It's a fallacious example. 



ThirdRidoku said:


> I'm like a broken record at this point, and you haven't refuted any of the other evidence I gave so no point in me writing them again.


Thank god. I couldn't bare to read another itachi fan fic.

And you are not offering any reputable points. Please, anyone else, tell me, is he actually giving me a point to refute?


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## Woodward (Apr 15, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Even the Large Mountain Calc I did is a disastrous low end, because it assumes the Valley of the end is only a border between the Land of Sound and Land of Fire, when it's possible it covers more than that. There is the destruction of Perfect Susano'o, an entity with country level feats. Kurama's standard bijuu dama has also been calced at small country level, and Susano'o took it without a scratch. There is also the fact that an unquantifiable amount of buddha hands were destroyed en route by PS blades fused with bijuu damas, which you conveniently ignore.  Yet Hashi still made a country level valley in the ground. *The valley of the end's length has not been shown in its full capacity on panel, and that literally took many  posts for you to actually concede to, so all that is left is the qualitative feats and portrayal less we get caught up in speculation with the little information we have about the physical length of the valley, a*nd by those, Hashirama is comfortably Country Level.
> 
> 6,785,000 m (hypothetical length based on Base Naruto being Mach 6, which is a massive low end if we go by your claim that Naruto is massively hypersonic because he outpaced his own hypersonic rasenshuriken against Pain) x *3000*  x 1,000,000 (conversion factor from m^3 to cm^3) x 100 m  x 100m  x 69 J/cc = 1.404495e+22 =  Country level
> 
> That means the valley is on the order of 20,355,000 km long. Fitting for the God of Shinobi.l



Have you actually ever passed maths? The wall of text you always write is full of nonsense and garbage substance. You just said that VOTE was never fully shown, yet you somehow concluded it's over 20k km long, and you didn't even show where you got those figures from?

1). How did you calculate PS to be ''country level'' when its slashes are only multi-mountain level?
2). How did you calculate standard Biju Dama to be ''country level'' when it's only mountain-level?
3). Most importantly, where are you even getting these nonsense terms like country-level or continent-level?

You're literally a shit debater. You pull figures out of your ass and none of it is referenced by the manga. All you do is write massive wall texts, when anyone who reads the substance knows you're stupid as fuck.

By what the manga has shown, CST crater dwarfs VOTE until proven otherwise. So far, you haven't proven anything but assumptions.


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## Woodward (Apr 15, 2019)

This valley is defiantly not 20k km long. I doubt it's even 1km long either. CST is over 100km proven and shown.


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## Woodward (Apr 15, 2019)

kayz said:


> Lol, so you are using OBD calcs. Let me tell you, there's no accepted calc in the OBD where Konoha's size goes above 14km. You can ask @LazyWaka. He does most Naruto calc and knows all accepted calcs. 40 - 120km Konoha does not exist in OBD. Maybe you are quoting Vsbattle.



I'll concede to this point. OBD is defiantly illegitimate as far as power-scaling is concerned and should not be referenced in any vs matchup. A lot of their numbers are questionable and their terms, like island or country or continent levels are bullshit. In the end, it's a fan-made website which can be edited by anyone. So I agree with you as far as OBD's reliability.

Nevertheless, I still believe ST and CT are far stronger than PS by what the manga has shown, until I'm proven wrong otherwise.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2019)

The kicker, the CST that Deva used isn't even reflective of what Nagato could do.

Deva Path was far from Nagato (not the best Deva can be), Nagato was also feeding chakra to use Pain, and CST was still crazy strong with all the extra chakra concentrated in Deva. 

Nagato is using the jutsu himself, which makes it stronger, and he also can pump even more chakra into it. His CST should make Deva's look like nothing.


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## ThirdRidoku (Apr 16, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Have you actually ever passed maths? The wall of text you always write is full of nonsense and garbage substance. You just said that VOTE was never fully shown, yet you somehow concluded it's over 20k km long, and you didn't even show where you got those figures from?
> 
> 1). How did you calculate PS to be ''country level'' when its slashes are only multi-mountain level?
> 2). How did you calculate standard Biju Dama to be ''country level'' when it's only mountain-level?
> ...



You're not worth my time. My post was specifically tailored to @kokodeshide  and our "debate" which has spanned over weeks over three different threads, so there is context you wouldn't understand. The figures weren't pulled out of my ass, kid. I gave you your time and spotlight to respond and debate with me when I quoted your posts directly and you didn't respond with anything worth commenting on, and now you suddenly come back with more ad hominem garbage. Classic.
If my figures were pulled out of my ass, then how does @kokodeshide know exactly what I'm talking about?


You don't even understand that country-level means yet you are coming at me with disrespect and dishonesty, LMAO.
If the terms are so nonsense, then why is @kokodeshide using them? Enlighten me.

You are even worse than kokodeshide, because at least they (finally) admit that the full length of the valley hasn't been shown on panel in the manga. Even the scan you posted shows the valley extending out of the page toward the reader, yet you claim the CST crater is bigger without any proof,  so troll harder.




kokodeshide said:


> Says the guy who tried to pass off a 300KT attack as stronger than a 300 GT attack lololol.



I never said that, and you know it,  but keep acting like I did, shows your integrity as a "debater".




kokodeshide said:


> I don't think you can actually understand the difference between feats and intent. Lets say i agree with you thats the feats show Itachi would beat him. The feats do NOT prove his INTENT. *So long as you Say BS like "Itachi wanted a challenge", I will never discuss any of those feats and how they relate in a fight, because your stance is clear, you have an itachi agenda and you dont want to stray from it. *




Dude, cut the BS. This debate has been going on for weeks, and not ONCE have you addressed any feats I mentioned in any constructive capacity. The feats showed Itachi would win when he speed blitz'd Nagato twice without Nagato being able to mentally react, how is this so hard to understand????? He could have blitz'd him by himself whenever he wanted. Yet the battle lasted for essentially a whole chapter. Then Itachi lectures naruto about the perils of doing everything by yourself just because you have more power than everyone else. It all fits together. When you prove me wrong, I'll concede. That's how this works.


The bolded is not only cowardly, but hypocritical. Way back when you were claiming BS like Itachi always defaults to genjutsu when he didn't open with it against Kakashi in his DEBUT.  He didn't open with it against Killer Bee and Naruto either. He opened with a fire ball, Shadow clone Body replacement, then taijutsu of all things. He used genjutsu on Bee mid-fight, then went back to taijutsu.  I got tired of explaining this to you and said I would stop debating with you on the topic,  and you didn't appreciate it. I realized what I said was wrong no matter how justified I was, and continued to debate.  Now you are depriving of me of an educational debating experience just because of bias toward Nagato? Unreal.  If you think Itachi didn't blitz Nagato, then debunking my cited feats would be helpful. Don't act like I'm incapable of learning. I thought Obito would defeat Nagato until you showed me why that wouldn't be the case. I thought Hashi would defeat all 9 bijuu way back when and your arguments changed my mind. I thought Obito used Kamui to escape Itachi's amaterasu, then you showed evidence, and your quote in response to my change of mind was  " Thanks for keeping an open mind". The fact that you think I have an agenda for Itachi just shows how far your bias for Nagato runs. I pointed you toward KISHI the AUTHORS WORD.

Manga: shows and says Itachi greater than Nagato beyond reasonable doubt.
Third Ridoku:  Nods in approval
Kokodeshide: Nagato > Itachi and I won't explain why

What kind of debating logic is that?







kokodeshide said:


> Bro, you just said i didnt prove it, then said I proved it. lolololol. Want to go High end to high end? Cause I used the 40 Km Konoha. I could use the 150Km one. Or maybe i should use the high end Kyuubi height and make the crater deeper. Both calcs are massive low ends. Thats the fuckin point.







kokodeshide said:


> Nope, this is now the SECOND time i have had to tell you this, You started it and even apologized for it then continued on with it anyway.






kokodeshide said:


> Bruv, this is a DEBATE forum. Take your discussions elsewhere. or PM me with discussion talk. Here I'm only debating, as is the point of the battledome.
> 
> And yes I did prove my point, I showed that the calc for CST is higher than the calc for SS. By far. You then started crying that i didn't use some unknown length of the VotE. I CANT use a length for the VotE if there is NO length for the vote, only what I can see. WE can ONLY go off of what we know for sure, not what could or couldnt be.








kokodeshide said:


> And the CST calc is a disastrous low end cause if super low balls Kyuubis height and the height of the border wall and the depth of the crater and the size of Konoha. And it still crushes your low end.




None of this matters because as you said the VOTE has an unquantifiable length. I calc'd a small section of it LMAO, keep trolling bro. I referenced you the scans I used for the first two calcs too. Both of them were small sections of the valley.  The third calc is based on Base Naruto being Mach 6, and I gave you the link I used for it too. You have stated that base Naruto is much faster than Mach 6, so the Large Mountain calc is even more massively low-balled.

The difference is the full scale of the CST crater can be seen. Kishimoto drew multiple aerial views of it. We know the crater doesn't extend past the walls around Konoha, and we can clearly see how deep it is. The Valley was not given the same treatment in Kishimoto's illustrations. We see where it starts but never where it ends.






kokodeshide said:


> This is my point, In order to make Hashiramas calc equal, you have to assume the earth of the naruto world is LITERALLY 5 times the circumference of the SUN. You expect me to take you seriously when you say that kind of shit?



And why exactly can't it be that big? I'm very curious, so enlighten me. I want actual physics here.



kokodeshide said:


> Not country level at all. Again, you cannot use speculation to support an argument. We can speculate all you want outside of a debate.





kokodeshide said:


> No character statement indicates he is country level lol.





kokodeshide said:


> Guess what, the Kyuubis basic TBB calc assumed the mountains are over 300 KM tall. Do you know how retarded that is? Kyuubis basic TBB is much lower. and PS didnt even tank the whole thing.




I know exactly what calc you are referring to. Unfortunately for you, that isn't the crux of my argument. Madara dropped two country level meteors on the alliance. Madara is a country level character. Madara admits Hashirama carves up the landscape better than himself. Both of them are compared to Kurama through character statements and feats, and like I said, I'm not typing them over and over again, I have typed them enough for the time being, and You know exactly what statements and feats I'm referring to. I have lost track of how many times I have typed them out. And we have already been through this dude. Madara's PS only took a portion of the the bijuu bomb. Yes, that is correct, however, he is still at the epicenter , and good old inverse square law says he took a large yield from it. His surface area is large but obviously not big enough to take the full thing, but still large. He came out of it without a scratch while everything else was destroyed except for Hobi. 




kokodeshide said:


> You disproved your own point. Everyone uses chakra differently. the only time it matters is when someone is using the same jutsu, and even then, skill plays a role. Sasuke has the weaker jutsu, Chidori, yet is able to equal Narutos rasengan despite Naruto having WAY more chakra and the "stronger" Jutsu. It is not black and white like you are pretending.




Naruto also holds back against Sasuke even sometimes subconsciously , so..... And I didn't disprove my point at all.



kokodeshide said:


> I know.
> And despite them both being blunt attacks, they operate differently, so you cannot compare them in terms of chakra.



A mathematical equation can have more than one variable in it. However, if one variable or term is disproportionately bigger than all the others, then the solution will reflect that.  Hashirama has been shown to much more powerful than Nagato in chakra quantity. Nagato literally marveled at the strength of Kn8 naruto. Hashirama's constructs are stronger than the same entity that shocked Nagato with it's physical strength.



kokodeshide said:


> Lowest chakra, yet more destructive capability than most of them. Disproving your point.



Not really actually. He was overpowered by Hebi Sasuke in a raw katon battle until he used the most hax'd flame in the manga. His exploding clone leaves much to be desired when compared to Deidara's equivalent techniques.

His real destructive capability comes from hax'd undying flames from hell and Susano'o which literally require him to go all out chakra wise to use. Like I said,  ignoring Yata and Totsuka, Madara' s susano'o is vastly superior to Itachi's because of the difference in stamina.

And this is all fine, because I never claimed that Itachi 's strong suit was power or stamina. He doesn't need power when he has the two most haxx'd weapons in the verse in his arsenal lmao.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> He doesn't need power when he has the two most haxx'd weapons in the verse in his arsenal lmao.



Its a shame that those "most haxx'd weapons in the verse" are absorbent.


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## kokodeshide (Apr 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I never said that, and you know it, but keep acting like I did, shows your integrity as a "debater".





ThirdRidoku said:


> I was trying to be as restrictive as possible so I don't humiliate Nagato too much LMAO.


Right there you are saying you resticted your number so you didnt humiliate Nagato TOO MUCH. Implying the 300 KT calc Humiliates the 300GT calc.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Dude, cut the BS. This debate has been going on for weeks, and not ONCE have you addressed any feats I mentioned in any constructive capacity. The feats showed Itachi would win when he speed blitz'd Nagato twice without Nagato being able to mentally react, how is this so hard to understand????? He could have blitz'd him by himself whenever he wanted. Yet the battle lasted for essentially a whole chapter. Then Itachi lectures naruto about the perils of doing everything by yourself just because you have more power than everyone else. It all fits together. When you prove me wrong, I'll concede. That's how this works.
> 
> 
> The bolded is not only cowardly, but hypocritical. Way back when you were claiming BS like Itachi always defaults to genjutsu when he didn't open with it against Kakashi in his DEBUT. He didn't open with it against Killer Bee and Naruto either. He opened with a fire ball, Shadow clone Body replacement, then taijutsu of all things. He used genjutsu on Bee mid-fight, then went back to taijutsu. I got tired of explaining this to you and said I would stop debating with you on the topic, and you didn't appreciate it. I realized what I said was wrong no matter how justified I was, and continued to debate. Now you are depriving of me of an educational debating experience just because of bias toward Nagato? Unreal. If you think Itachi didn't blitz Nagato, then debunking my cited feats would be helpful. Don't act like I'm incapable of learning. I thought Obito would defeat Nagato until you showed me why that wouldn't be the case. I thought Hashi would defeat all 9 bijuu way back when and your arguments changed my mind. I thought Obito used Kamui to escape Itachi's amaterasu, then you showed evidence, and your quote in response to my change of mind was " Thanks for keeping an open mind". The fact that you think I have an agenda for Itachi just shows how far your bias for Nagato runs. I pointed you toward KISHI the AUTHORS WORD.


Bro, dont even bother with this nonsense. Also, to further prove my point that you started the rage, here is what you said, so that next time you dont forget and accuse me of being the aggressor.


ThirdRidoku said:


> I apologized because I lost my cool, but it turns out I had every reason to, considering your BS Lies.





ThirdRidoku said:


> Manga: shows and says Itachi greater than Nagato beyond reasonable doubt.
> Third Ridoku: Nods in approval
> Kokodeshide: Nagato > Itachi and I won't explain why
> 
> What kind of debating logic is that?


No its more like this.
Manga: Blatantly says Nagato>Itachi
ThirdRidoku: Rages about fanfiction.
Kokodeshide: doesn't care and isn't going to deal with it.

You arent using logic, you are using pure conjecture to justify shit. I refuse to participate in a debate of that kind, that is 100 percent horrible debate etiquette. As so as you want to strictly stick to the feats of the manga, and toss out your BS emotional garbage that you attack to itachi, I would love to debate Nagato Vs Itachi. But when you have these kind of emotional outbursts it shows you wont change your mind at all.



ThirdRidoku said:


> None of this matters because as you said the VOTE has an unquantifiable length. I calc'd a small section of it LMAO, keep trolling bro. I referenced you the scans I used for the first two calcs too. Both of them were small sections of the valley. The third calc is based on Base Naruto being Mach 6, and I gave you the link I used for it too. You have stated that base Naruto is much faster than Mach 6, so the Large Mountain calc is even more massively low-balled.
> 
> The difference is the full scale of the CST crater can be seen. Kishimoto drew multiple aerial views of it. We know the crater doesn't extend past the walls around Konoha, and we can clearly see how deep it is. The Valley was not given the same treatment in Kishimoto's illustrations. We see where it starts but never where it ends.


Dude, you need to understand how this works. You sound like a fool when you just repeat this garbage. We can ONLY calc what we see. Nothing more, nothing less. I cant just suddenly act like Konoha could have had a massive Iron deposit under the city which makes CST tens of times stronger then say because you cant prove it didnt, that means it could have.

Seriously, this is ridiculous. I dont need to prove the true length of the VotE. That is a job for you, what i can do is calc the shown damage, that is it. and when you do that, it is over 1000 times less than CST. And even if i give you the benefit of the doubt and say that only 1 of the SS 1000 hands hit the ground and created that it would still be less than CST, the LOW end of CST.

Its like if i told you Prove that Nagato used full power for his CST, he never said he was, he just said he was deactivating his bodies. So CST doesnt have a determinable size, therefore you are wrong. That isnt how it works. My calc is higher, so until you can produce a higher calc, the burden of proof is on YOU.



ThirdRidoku said:


> And why exactly can't it be that big? I'm very curious, so enlighten me. I want actual physics here.


Seriously? That would turn the earth into a fuckin STAR. Literally, the Earth would ignite and become a star.
It is literally impossible, but for fun, lets just say the earth was as big as the sun. not FIVE TIMES AS BIG like you are saying. That would make a 150 pound person weigh over 16,000 pounds, bruv. Gravity would be insane. Naruto would weight as much as 4 cars. Every step he took would destroy the ground.

Now for the reality.
It is impossible for a earthlike planet to be sunsize because of the compression. There are 2 points in the stages of compression. Electron Degeneracy (between .0029 - 1.4 solar masses.) And Neutron Degeneracy (from >1.4–3.8 solar masses.) Keep in mind, the earth sun would be 4 solar masses.

Electron degenerate matter density is roughly 10,000 kg per cubic centimeter. Neutron degenerate matter density is about 2,000,000 kg per cubic centimeter. You can graph it and come up with the size of any planet over .0028 solar masses.(AKA, the point of electron degeneracy)

As a planet gets bigger, gravitational compression increases until, at a mass 1.7 times Jupiter(NOWHERE NEAR THE SUN), the planet LITERALLY stops growing!. If I added more mass to it, it would actually make it SMALLER because the compression created by the extra mass > volume of the extra mass.
And if I kept adding more and more and more mass, It would eventually collapse into a fuckin BLACK HOLE.
If their planet was to appear right now in our universe it would start neutron degeneration which would be slow because it would be a cold event, not a supernova, so there would be a smooth shift as it began to shink from the Chandrasekhar limit at 1.4 solar masses to near 3.8 solar masses. Then suddenly, the nuclear forces would fail to hold the atoms structure and it would spontaneously shift into a fucking black hole. Just, one minute it is burning and shrinking, the next it is just black. So NO, The naruto earth is NOT 5 times the circumference of the sun.



ThirdRidoku said:


> I know exactly what calc you are referring to. Unfortunately for you, that isn't the crux of my argument. Madara dropped two country level meteors on the alliance. Madara is a country level character. Madara admits Hashirama carves up the landscape better than himself. Both of them are compared to Kurama through character statements and feats, and like I said, I'm not typing them over and over again, I have typed them enough for the time being, and You know exactly what statements and feats I'm referring to. I have lost track of how many times I have typed them out. And we have already been through this dude. Madara's PS only took a portion of the the bijuu bomb. Yes, that is correct, however, he is still at the epicenter , and good old inverse square law says he took a large yield from it. His surface area is large but obviously not big enough to take the full thing, but still large. He came out of it without a scratch while everything else was destroyed except for Hobi.


 Those meteors are not country level, hency why Gaara and Oonoki stopped one and lived through another. The issue with you country level Meteor calc is that it is not a hypersonic meteor. The meteor in The Last was, and it is CLEARLY different.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Naruto also holds back against Sasuke even sometimes subconsciously , so..... And I didn't disprove my point at all.


This is pure conjecture, no proof.


ThirdRidoku said:


> A mathematical equation can have more than one variable in it. However, if one variable or term is disproportionately bigger than all the others, then the solution will reflect that. Hashirama has been shown to much more powerful than Nagato in chakra quantity. Nagato literally marveled at the strength of Kn8 naruto. Hashirama's constructs are stronger than the same entity that shocked Nagato with it's physical strength.


Pure conjecture again. also, there is no correlation between Mokuton and CST.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Not really actually. He was overpowered by Hebi Sasuke in a raw katon battle until he used the most hax'd flame in the manga. His exploding clone leaves much to be desired when compared to Deidara's equivalent techniques.
> 
> His real destructive capability comes from hax'd undying flames from hell and Susano'o which literally require him to go all out chakra wise to use. Like I said, ignoring Yata and Totsuka, Madara' s susano'o is vastly superior to Itachi's because of the difference in stamina.
> 
> And this is all fine, because I never claimed that Itachi 's strong suit was power or stamina. He doesn't need power when he has the two most haxx'd weapons in the verse in his arsenal lmao.


Yes...his Amaterasu can destroy more than nearly any other jutsu in naruto, so yes, his DC is incredible. It's a slow burn, but overall more devastating.


----------



## Woodward (Apr 16, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You're not worth my time. My post was specifically tailored to @kokodeshide  and our "debate" which has spanned over weeks over three different threads, so there is context you wouldn't understand. The figures weren't pulled out of my ass, kid. I gave you your time and spotlight to respond and debate with me when I quoted your posts directly and you didn't respond with anything worth commenting on, and now you suddenly come back with more ad hominem garbage. Classic.
> If my figures were pulled out of my ass, then how does @kokodeshide know exactly what I'm talking about?
> 
> 
> ...


No, you straight up pulled it out of your ass. You calculated it VOTE to be ''country-level'' and then you brought 1000 out of nowhere. Sounds like ass numbers. You didn't explain where you got them from. Don't give a shit what Koko thinks, I asked 3 questions and you failed to answer them, so I'll accept your concession. I frankly don't give crap about fan-made calcs, I care about what the manga has portrayed and shown, which is CST > Chojo Kebutsu > PS.
A troll like you who thinks Itachi > Nagato should never be replied to by anyone.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Right there you are saying you resticted your number so you didnt humiliate Nagato TOO MUCH. Implying the 300 KT calc Humiliates the 300GT calc.
> 
> Bro, dont even bother with this nonsense. Also, to further prove my point that you started the rage, here is what you said, so that next time you dont forget and accuse me of being the aggressor.
> 
> ...




Please, be more concise.


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## kokodeshide (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Please, be more concise.


With him? Being concise doesn't work.

But, if you want the short hand version of my novel here, im free to sum it up upon request.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 16, 2019)

Cad Bane said:


> Actually going to say Madara. Nagato has a more versatile arsenal but I don't see him tanking a mountain cutting Perfect Susanoo slash. I could see Nagato beating Hashirama though.


Nani?!


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 16, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Can preta absorb perfect susanoo?


Most likely, but it's not like Madara is going to sit there and let him do it... As seen with the RasenShuriken, it takes time.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 16, 2019)

Woodward said:


> PS is a mountain-buster only, actually it cuts mountain tops which isn't the same as busting a mountain entirely. Anyway, this is just a portion of Konoha and look at the Hokage Mountain represented by the red-line (Madara's full power is only cutting mountain tops):
> 
> 
> The power disparity is pretty clear. Nagato stomps Madara.


Y'know, Saitama also knocked on a door and only shook it a little, while Konohamaru once dented a wall with a rasengan. Therefore, Konohamaru>Saitama

You're comparing someone's casual to another's final attack


----------



## Woodward (Apr 17, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Y'know, Saitama also knocked on a door and only shook it a little, while Konohamaru once dented a wall with a rasengan. Therefore, Konohamaru>Saitama
> 
> You're comparing someone's casual to another's final attack



Your analogy is dumb. The proper comparison is, rockets blow up building (PS) while nuke levels city (ST). Not literal but you grasp the overwhelming power difference.

Nagato's final attack is greater than every slash Madara can make until he can't use PS, that's the thing here.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 20, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Your analogy is dumb. The proper comparison is, rockets blow up building (PS) while nuke levels city (ST). Not literal but you grasp the overwhelming power difference.
> 
> Nagato's final attack is greater than every slash Madara can make until he can't use PS, that's the thing here.


Two things you forgot:
1. That was not the sword swing, that was the air pressure from the sword splitting mountains. That's like comparing the kid who broke a table with his weight vs the kid who shattered a cup by swinging a pencil 5 feet away.
2. Madara can swing a lot harder than that, and considering that it was compared to the full Kyuubi and Pain was completely dicked on by less than half the Kyuubi, ehhh


----------



## Woodward (Apr 20, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Two things you forgot:
> 1. That was not the sword swing, that was the air pressure from the sword splitting mountains. That's like comparing the kid who broke a table with his weight vs the kid who shattered a cup by swinging a pencil 5 feet away.
> 2. Madara can swing a lot harder than that, and considering that it was compared to the full Kyuubi and Pain was completely dicked on by less than half the Kyuubi, ehhh



We've seen the direct slash and it wasn't any more powerful than the shock-wave emitted. PS is multi-mountain level and will always remain that way. CST is so many levels above multi-mountains, since it flattened an area that dwarfs mountain range. It's a canon statement that PS is comparable to a Biju, whereas CST surpasses the Biju in power.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Most likely, but it's not like Madara is going to sit there and let him do it... As seen with the RasenShuriken, it takes time.



Preta has consistently shown that it does not take time to absorb jutsu. That's why Jiraiya had to send a constant stream of Katon to keep the Preta body busy.



Nuttynutdude said:


> You're comparing someone's casual to another's final attack



That could be Deva's final attack, but not Nagato's. Nagato's casual ST was the second largest ST we've seen in the manga.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Two things you forgot:
> 1. That was not the sword swing, that was the air pressure from the sword splitting mountains. That's like comparing the kid who broke a table with his weight vs the kid who shattered a cup by swinging a pencil 5 feet away.
> 2. Madara can swing a lot harder than that, and considering that it was compared to the full Kyuubi and Pain was completely dicked on by less than half the Kyuubi, ehhh



A few things you're forgetting:
1. Those slashes can be dodged, Nagato whose got a Senju body and shown impressive feats a cripple should be capable. Especially when he has Deva flight and Demon Path boosts. This isn't including summons he has which he can make multiply.

2. You're using Pain to generalise to Nagato, that in-itself is wrong.

3. No PS user has ever fought by staying back and spamming slashes. Every PS user we've seen has always aimed to get up close and personal.


----------



## Woodward (Apr 20, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That could be Deva's final attack, but not Nagato's. Nagato's casual ST was the second largest ST we've seen in the manga.



I'm interested in how you got this?


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## Speedyamell (Apr 20, 2019)

Nagato ftw.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 20, 2019)

Woodward said:


> I'm interested in how you got this?



The ST Nagato-Kabuto used on Itachi and the Jin was more powerful than every Shinra Tensei we saw, except CST. In terms of the way it devastated the environment, you can potentially say it was bigger than the boss sized ST.

Either way, whether you say that's the second or third biggest ST, it was still a relatively casual ST from Nagato which is comparable to 2 versions of ST where Deva is trying.


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## Woodward (Apr 21, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The ST Nagato-Kabuto used on Itachi and the Jin was more powerful than every Shinra Tensei we saw, except CST. In terms of the way it devastated the environment, you can potentially say it was bigger than the boss sized ST.
> 
> Either way, whether you say that's the second or third biggest ST, it was still a relatively casual ST from Nagato which is comparable to 2 versions of ST where Deva is trying.



All it did was destroy a forest. Boss summons and Bijus tower over forests by large margins, as seen in Gamabunta vs Shukaku. Deva's ST regularly levelled blocks of Konoha, and just one building in Konoha is as big as a boss summon. That's in terms of AOE. Now you said it's more powerful in potency? It destroyed woods while Deva destroyed blocks made of hardened materials.

There is CST and regular ST. Nagato always adjusts STs depending on the situation he's in. He's not levelling the map all the time. A ST used in defensive measure repelled FRS.

Don't get me wrong, I defiantly agree Nagato himself can use stronger STs than when used by Paths, but that particular feat you're saying isn't really as large as you're making it out to be.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 21, 2019)

Woodward said:


> All it did was destroy a forest. Boss summons and Bijus tower over forests by large margins, as seen in Gamabunta vs Shukaku. Deva's ST regularly levelled blocks of Konoha, and just one building in Konoha is as big as a boss summon. That's in terms of AOE. Now you said it's more powerful in potency? It destroyed woods while Deva destroyed blocks made of hardened materials.
> 
> There is CST and regular ST. Nagato always adjusts STs depending on the situation he's in. He's not levelling the map all the time. A ST used in defensive measure repelled FRS.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I defiantly agree Nagato himself can use stronger STs than when used by Paths, but that particular feat you're saying isn't really as large as you're making it out to be.



The significance of the feat that I'm promising is that the one Nagato used is a fairly casual ST for him. So if he began trying like Deva did, his stronger STs would be monstrous.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 23, 2019)

Woodward said:


> We've seen the direct slash and it wasn't any more powerful than the shock-wave emitted.


That in itself makes no sense. That's not how physics works in general


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 23, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Preta has consistently shown that it does not take time to absorb jutsu. That's why Jiraiya had to send a constant stream of Katon to keep the Preta body busy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it could absorb any amount of chakra instantaneously, then Madara would have done that multiple times, seeing as he has a far more powerful rinnegan.
It was Pain's vs Nagato's, but the statement still stands. It's an unfair comparison
They can be dodged, but Chaotic Shinra Tensei isn't exactly the sneakiest move either, and it leaves Nagato vulnerable afterwards.(We can assume, at least. I doubt it'll be anywhere near as long as Pain, but it is probably still something)
Close range to the Susano'o is not where Nagato wants to be.


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## Woodward (Apr 23, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> That in itself makes no sense. That's not how physics works in general



Physics and fiction don't mix well.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 23, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> If it could absorb any amount of chakra instantaneously, then Madara would have done that multiple times, seeing as he has a far more powerful rinnegan.



Madara did do that multiple times...



> It was Pain's vs Nagato's, but the statement still stands. It's an unfair comparison



What?



> They can be dodged, but Chaotic Shinra Tensei isn't exactly the sneakiest move either, and it leaves Nagato vulnerable afterwards.(We can assume, at least. I doubt it'll be anywhere near as long as Pain, but it is probably still something)



Incorrect. That was a limitation of the Pain jutsu, not the Rinnegan. Shinra Tensei can not be detected by Madara until it is used.

CST affected the Pain jutsu, which is why Nagato lost control of Animal Path momentarily and why Deva Path fell down after using his final ST on Naruto- it is also the reason why Deva took a while to get his powers back. In fact, Konan even said the bodies took longer to recover the last time Nagato used ST. As Obito let us know, controlling the Pain bodies is chakra taxing itself, and Nagato was in a chakra deprived stated. 

None of these drawbacks apply to a healthy Nagato using the jutsu directly.



> Close range to the Susano'o is not where Nagato wants to be.



Yeah it is, because if he touches it, he'll absorb it.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 23, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Physics and fiction don't mix well.


You cannot completely disregard physics in a debate like this, or we can say the rocks in Konoha were weaker than dust because reality /= fiction.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 23, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara did do that multiple times...


He did. And there were multiple times later on that, were he to have done that, he would never have gotten hit. Remember Naruto and Sasuke blitz fking him for several chapters? If he was 100% immune to any chakra based jutsu ever, then Sasuke would have been generally useless


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What?


You cannot compare Madara swinging his sword casually to Pain's last resort


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Incorrect. That was a limitation of the Pain jutsu, not the Rinnegan. Shinra Tensei can not be detected by Madara until it is used.
> 
> CST affected the Pain jutsu, which is why Nagato lost control of Animal Path momentarily and why Deva Path fell down after using his final ST on Naruto- it is also the reason why Deva took a while to get his powers back. In fact, Konan even said the bodies took longer to recover the last time Nagato used ST. As Obito let us know, controlling the Pain bodies is chakra taxing itself, and Nagato was in a chakra deprived stated.
> 
> None of these drawbacks apply to a healthy Nagato using the jutsu directly.


We don't know if they apply or not. We have never seen Nagato use chaotic shinra tensei before, only Pain. It would be headcanon to say either way. 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yeah it is, because if he touches it, he'll absorb it.


So anyone with the rinnegan can completely and instantaneously touch and absorb the Perfect Susano'o? Because if I remember, It took him a second or two to absorb the chakra from Bee


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 23, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He did. And there were multiple times later on that, were he to have done that, he would never have gotten hit. Remember Naruto and Sasuke blitz fking him for several chapters? If he was 100% immune to any chakra based jutsu ever, then Sasuke would have been generally useless



I don't even know why Madara didn't use his powers afterwards, that's probably because it wasn't easy to write. In fact, Obito didn't even use the Rinnegan as a Juubi Jin...



> You cannot compare Madara swinging his sword casually to Pain's last resort



You can when Nagato would hardly have to exert himself to replicate that.



> We don't know if they apply or not. We have never seen Nagato use chaotic shinra tensei before, only Pain. It would be headcanon to say either way.



We know Nagato spends a lot of jutsu to use the Pain jutsu and we know he was in a chakra deprived state. We've seen a fairly casual ST from Nagato rivaling Deva's stronger ones and Naruto outright said Nagato's jutsu are faster/stronger. It isn't hard to come to that conclusion that Nagato's would be batter.

Assuming Madara will spam slashes, that's headcanon when every PS in the manga always gets up close and person.



> So anyone with the rinnegan can completely and instantaneously touch and absorb the Perfect Susano'o? Because if I remember, It took him a second or two to absorb the chakra from Bee



Pretty much, if they can use Preta Path. That's why the Rinnegan is one of the ultimate powers in the manga. 
It didn't take a couple of seconds to absorb, it just absorbed. We can't measure time through panels, every instance with Deva showed that.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (Apr 23, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't even know why Madara didn't use his powers afterwards, that's probably because it wasn't easy to write. In fact, Obito didn't even use the Rinnegan as a Juubi Jin...


He also wasn't even able to talk properly. It was pretty obvious he was not in a good state of mind


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can when Nagato would hardly have to exert himself to replicate that.


Have any feats at all to support that?


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We know Nagato spends a lot of jutsu to use the Pain jutsu and we know he was in a chakra deprived state. We've seen a fairly casual ST from Nagato rivaling Deva's stronger ones and Naruto outright said Nagato's jutsu are faster/stronger. It isn't hard to come to that conclusion that Nagato's would be batter.
> 
> Assuming Madara will spam slashes, that's headcanon when every PS in the manga always gets up close and person.


You can't say because it is an undefined amount stronger it must be where I think it is. There are no feats of Nagato using anything on the level of the Pain's Assault Shinra Tensei. 
And you're right, he didn't expend energy to do that. I guess edo Nagato has the same chakra pool as alive one, so he's the exception among all the edo's?


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Pretty much, if they can use Preta Path. That's why the Rinnegan is one of the ultimate powers in the manga.
> It didn't take a couple of seconds to absorb, it just absorbed. We can't measure time through panels, every instance with Deva showed that.


It did take a few seconds. Nagato held him in place to do that. If he could do it instantaneously, he could have just tapped Bee and killed him


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 23, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He also wasn't even able to talk properly. It was pretty obvious he was not in a good state of mind



He arguably used BT on Naruto and Sasuke, but that's sketchy. There's no excuse when he gained control. 



> Have any feats at all to support that?



The ST Nagato used to turn Itachi to dust and push Naruto/Bee away. That's easily one of the biggest ST's we've seen. 



> You can't say because it is an undefined amount stronger it must be where I think it is. There are no feats of Nagato using anything on the level of the Pain's Assault Shinra Tensei.
> And you're right, he didn't expend energy to do that. I guess edo Nagato has the same chakra pool as alive one, so he's the exception among all the edo's?



That doesn't mean Nagato can't use them, Pain's abilities are just watered down versions of Nagato's as per Naruto. In fact, Deva's jutsu quality got stronger the closer he got to Nagato. 

Edo Tensei constantly refills chakra. Now, why Nagato was revived in that chakra deprived state whilst Itachi was revived with restored sight, I don't know. But that's what it looks like to us. 



> It did take a few seconds. Nagato held him in place to do that. If he could do it instantaneously, he could have just tapped Bee and killed him



Nagato was hit then used Preta Path. The panels just showed the chakra going to Nagato. Immediately after the chakra was absorbed, Nagato hit Bee with a ST before he could react. This is the same Killer B who showed impressove reflexes.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (Apr 23, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He arguably used BT on Naruto and Sasuke, but that's sketchy. There's no excuse when he gained control.


He had no need to once he gained control. He was manhandling them until he got Talk no Jutsu'd


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The ST Nagato used to turn Itachi to dust and push Naruto/Bee away. That's easily one of the biggest ST's we've seen.


I don't remember it leveling an entire mountain...


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That doesn't mean Nagato can't use them, Pain's abilities are just watered down versions of Nagato's as per Naruto. In fact, Deva's jutsu quality got stronger the closer he got to Nagato.
> 
> Edo Tensei constantly refills chakra. Now, why Nagato was revived in that chakra deprived state whilst Itachi was revived with restored sight, I don't know. But that's what it looks like to us.


Exactly. It is stronger, but assuming there are immediately no drawbacks whereas there were enormous ones before isn't logical


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nagato was hit then used Preta Path. The panels just showed the chakra going to Nagato. Immediately after the chakra was absorbed, Nagato hit Bee with a ST before he could react. This is the same Killer B who showed impressove reflexes.


You aren't arguing against the point, just moving away from it


----------



## Woodward (Apr 24, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> You cannot completely disregard physics in a debate like this, or we can say the rocks in Konoha were weaker than dust because reality /= fiction.



Dude, you're the one who discarding Madara's own words. He outright states his PS sword swing is comparable to a Biju Dama, which busts a mountain; if his direct slash instead of the shockwave is much stronger as you're exaggeratedly implying, he would have said it's superior. Regardless of whether his direct slash is gonna be stronger than the shockwave or not, is irrelevant since Nagato's output is vastly superior to anything EMS Madara can do by feats and portrayal.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 24, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> He had no need to once he gained control. He was manhandling them until he got Talk no Jutsu'd



There was a need several times. If he used Deva, for example, when his feelings were getting in the way during the final clash, the outcome could have changed.



> I don't remember it leveling an entire mountain...



The point is one of the largest ST we've seen is casual for Nagato, Nagato pushing himself will be capable of so much more. 



> Exactly. It is stronger, but assuming there are immediately no drawbacks whereas there were enormous ones before isn't logical



Except these drawbacks are ones associated with the Pain Rikudou jutsu _*not *_the Rinnegan jutsu.



> You aren't arguing against the point, just moving away from it



Please explain.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (Apr 24, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Dude, you're the one who discarding Madara's own words. He outright states his PS sword swing is comparable to a Biju Dama, which busts a mountain; if his direct slash instead of the shockwave is much stronger as you're exaggeratedly implying, he would have said it's superior. Regardless of whether his direct slash is gonna be stronger than the shockwave or not, is irrelevant since Nagato's output is vastly superior to anything EMS Madara can do by feats and portrayal.


Y'wanna show me where he says the sword swing = bijudama?

I remember "my susano'o rivals the tailed beasts", which is not the same thing.

And the fact that a weakened KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi could take out Nagato pretty handily while Bee, Kakashi, a gated Guy, and a far stronger KCM2 Naruto could barely touch Obito, who was pretty obviously weaker than a Madara that Hashirama later stated was "gaining his former strength" when he came alive, I find it hard to believe that Madara would be defeated by that team of Naruto bee and Itachi


----------



## Hazuki (Apr 24, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Y'wanna show me where he says the sword swing = bijudama?
> 
> I
> And the fact that a weakened KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi could take out Nagato pretty handily i



read the manga , the guy couldn't even move by himself and was controlled by kabuto + had no intention to kill and never care about itachi , he was focus on naruto and bee while  itachi  was hidden and wait the right time and  took the opportunity to save them 

 kabuto/ nagato  forgot him during all the fight until the end
*
believe me that a full power healh nagato with full control + intention to kill , who is focus on itachi , naruto and bee , it's a an other story ...*


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 24, 2019)

Hazuki said:


> read the manga , the guy couldn't even move by himself and was controlled by kabuto + had no intention to kill and never care about itachi , he was focus on naruto and bee while  itachi  was hidden and wait the right time and  took the opportunity to save them
> 
> kabuto/ nagato  forgot him during all the fight until the end
> *
> believe me that a full power healh nagato with full control + intention to kill , who is focus on itachi , naruto and bee , it's a an other story ...*


Nagato had full intention to kill both of them. Naruto had to fight for his life by playing tug of war on his soul and was about to die when Itachi saved his ass. 

Nagato was bloodlusted here, definitely not dicking around. Remember when he 1. got mobility back by absorbing chakra from Bee and 2. was given the order to just kill by Kabuto. As seen with Mu, Kabuto doesn't have to physically control every puppet. He CAN, but he doesn't have to, he can just have them set to kill mode


----------



## Woodward (Apr 25, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Y'wanna show me where he says the sword swing = bijudama?
> 
> I remember "my susano'o rivals the tailed beasts", which is not the same thing.
> 
> And the fact that a weakened KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi could take out Nagato pretty handily while Bee, Kakashi, a gated Guy, and a far stronger KCM2 Naruto could barely touch Obito, who was pretty obviously weaker than a Madara that Hashirama later stated was "gaining his former strength" when he came alive, I find it hard to believe that Madara would be defeated by that team of Naruto bee and Itachi



Don't be dense. His Susanoo rivals a Tailed Beast in a sense of destructive capacity; the sword swings cutting mountains is on par with a Biju Dama. This isn't rocket science. It still is considerably inferior to what Nagato did at his deathbed with ST and CT, whereas PS is Madara's full power. Gedo Mazo alone is superior to PS by feats.

Selective reading at its finest. Firstly, that was Kabuto manipulating Nagato. Secondly, Obito being inferior to EMS Madara is your subjective opinion, when Obito is actually objectively > EMS Madara and most likely Edo Madara. Thirdly, 7 Gates Gai alone one-panelled Edo Madara and made him disappear for a whole chapter. Gai wouldn't last a second in front of Nagato.

You wanna go by selective reading? The Gokage pushed Edo Madara, who is > EMS Madara, to use PS which is his full power. The same Gokage would get fodderized by KCM Naruto & Killer Bee, actually KCM Naruto can arguably solo. Nagato curb-stomped KCM Naruto & Bee at the same time. So by that equation, Nagato would beat EMS Madara with relative ease.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 25, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Don't be dense. His Susanoo rivals a Tailed Beast in a sense of destructive capacity; the sword swings cutting mountains is on par with a Biju Dama. This isn't rocket science. It still is considerably inferior to what Nagato did at his deathbed with ST and CT, whereas PS is Madara's full power. *Gedo Mazo alone is superior to PS by feats.*
> 
> Selective reading at its finest. Firstly, that was Kabuto manipulating Nagato. Secondly, Obito being inferior to EMS Madara is your subjective opinion, when Obito is actually objectively > EMS Madara and most likely Edo Madara. Thirdly, 7 Gates Gai alone one-panelled Edo Madara and made him disappear for a whole chapter. Gai wouldn't last a second in front of Nagato.
> 
> You wanna go by selective reading? The Gokage pushed Edo Madara, who is > EMS Madara, to use PS which is his full power. The same Gokage would get fodderized by KCM Naruto & Killer Bee, actually KCM Naruto can arguably solo. Nagato curb-stomped KCM Naruto & Bee at the same time. So by that equation, Nagato would beat EMS Madara with relative ease.


Response to the *bold*.

What feats are you using. Gedo Mazo needed to be defended from Bee and company by Obito. I don't know what you are comparing, but PS is vastly different from Gedo Mazo. It's the most powerful variation of a jutsu that has became a staple for almost all the mainstream Uchiha. Gedo Mazo was always an after thought for a Rinnegan user. The bottom line is Gedo Mazo was mainly utilized as a storage for the nine biju in which PS manage to replicate in the end. You are simply talking reckless when you suggest Gedo Mazo has better feats than Susano'o better yet PS.


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## dergeist (Apr 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Response to the *bold*.
> 
> What feats are you using. Gedo Mazo needed to be defended from Bee and company by Obito. I don't know what you are comparing, but PS is vastly different from Gedo Mazo. It's the most powerful variation of a jutsu that has became a staple for almost all the mainstream Uchiha. Gedo Mazo was always an after thought for a Rinnegan user. The bottom line is Gedo Mazo was mainly utilized as a storage for the nine biju in which PS manage to replicate in the end. You are simply talking reckless when you suggest Gedo Mazo has better feats than Susano'o better yet PS.



The Mezo's chains are strong enough to bind and seal tailed beasts. Yet, ribcage Susanoo cut through them like a hot knife through butter?


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## Woodward (Apr 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Response to the *bold*.
> 
> What feats are you using. Gedo Mazo needed to be defended from Bee and company by Obito. I don't know what you are comparing, but PS is vastly different from Gedo Mazo. It's the most powerful variation of a jutsu that has became a staple for almost all the mainstream Uchiha. Gedo Mazo was always an after thought for a Rinnegan user. The bottom line is Gedo Mazo was mainly utilized as a storage for the nine biju in which PS manage to replicate in the end. You are simply talking reckless when you suggest Gedo Mazo has better feats than Susano'o better yet PS.



-Its lightning blasts destroyed two mountains and the surrounding landscape, which is on par with PS slashes. The notion PS is the only thing that levels mountains is nonsense. Plenty of characters have destroyed mountains.

-It stopped two moving mountains with its bare hands. On the other hand, PS was outwrestled by Wood Golem.

-It tanked the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei that made the moon. You're gonna tell me PS can tank the moon's gravity crushing on it? Come on now...

PS is just the strongest MS jutsu nothing more. Gedo Mazo, on the other hand, is the vessel for the ultimate character in the manga. A vessel for Kaguya/Jubi >>> MS Jutsu.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 25, 2019)

Woodward said:


> -Its lightning blasts destroyed two mountains and the surrounding landscape, which is on par with PS slashes. The notion PS is the only thing that levels mountains is nonsense. Plenty of characters have destroyed mountains.


Never said PS was the only thing that destroyed mountains. IMO that's not even the best offensive feat for PS. Maybe for Madara's PS, but not necessarily PS. You're so focus about what they do offensively that you forget that the biggest asset to Susano'o is what it does on the defensive end. Since defense was the main reason why it was ingratiated into the Uchiha's arsenal to begin with.



> -It stopped two moving mountains with its bare hands. On the other hand, PS was outwrestled by Wood Golem.


Once again why are you so focused on what it provides offensively. It is a utility jutsu overall.



> -It tanked the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei that made the moon. You're gonna tell me PS can tank the moon's gravity crushing on it? Come on now...


I'm going to tell you that the things you are bringing up are irrelevant. Susano'o has the advantage by simply being a chakara contract instead of a living statue that needs protection. We've never seen a Susano'o tank a SPCT, but we have seen it protect it's user from other jutsu on that scale. Let's not pretend that SPCT was not an exclusive jutsu created to deal with Kaguya, and didn't PS counter Mugen Tsukuyomi. An arguably greater jutsu.



> PS is just the strongest MS jutsu nothing more. Gedo Mazo, on the other hand, is the vessel for the ultimate character in the manga. A vessel for Kaguya/Jubi >>> MS Jutsu.


Considering PS was also the trump for two of the three primary Rinnegan user I'd put it above almost all of the Rinnegan jutsu we've seen. What's the most powerful jutsu of the Rinnegan CT? Yeah CT was Sasuke's opening act and Sasuke's PS made short work of Madara's far more powerful CT.

Kaguya and Juubi had the Rinnesharingan. Key word RinneSHARINGAN. Let's not pretend that the Rinnegan wasn't ingratiated into the the sharingan family. Sasuke's Rinnegan is a hybrid and so was Was Kaguya's Sharinigan. Lol, did you really mention the Juubi? What the hell did the Juubi do with it's Dojutsu. I'm pretty sure it's Dojutsu never came into play. Talk about grasping for straws.


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## Woodward (Apr 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Never said PS was the only thing that destroyed mountains. IMO that's not even the best offensive feat for PS. Maybe for Madara's PS, but not necessarily PS. You're so focus about what they do offensively that you forget that the biggest asset to Susano'o is what it does on the defensive end. Since defense was the main reason why it was ingratiated into the Uchiha's arsenal to begin with.



Mazou's durability >>>> PS's durability/defense. PS was destroyed by Chojo Kebutsu. Mazou tanked the moon's gravity pulling compressed planet-sized rocks. You tell me which durability feat is better?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Once again why are you so focused on what it provides offensively. It is a utility jutsu overall.



You asked for feats, I gave you feats.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Considering PS was also the trump for two of the three primary Rinnegan user I'd put it above almost all of the Rinnegan jutsu we've seen. What's the most powerful jutsu of the Rinnegan CT? Yeah CT was Sasuke's opening act and Sasuke's PS made short work of Madara's far more powerful CT.



Who the fuck's talking about Rinnegan Sasuke's PS? We're talking about EMS Madara's PS.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Kaguya and Juubi had the Rinnesharingan. Key word RinneSHARINGAN. Let's not pretend that the Rinnegan wasn't ingratiated into the the sharingan family. Sasuke's Rinnegan is a hybrid and so was Was Kaguya's Sharinigan. Lol, did you really mention the Juubi? What the hell did the Juubi do with it's Dojutsu. I'm pretty sure it's Dojutsu never came into play. Talk about grasping for straws.



What are you even rambling about? We're talking about PS of an EMS user.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 25, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Mazou's durability >>>> PS's durability/defense. PS was destroyed by Chojo Kebutsu. Mazou tanked the moon's gravity pulling compressed planet-sized rocks. You tell me which durability feat is better?


Based on what? You do know that Susano'o is a chakara construct that can regenerate it's body simply by deactivating and reactivating. Meanwhile Gedo had to be protected twice. Once against Killerbee's punch. Another from Kumai. So why oh why are you trying to hype it's durability based on something we don't have. You do know the Mazo is made up of flesh, right? How many defensive jutsu it has be utilized against? They not even on the same stratosphere when it comes to overall utility. Mazo may provide it's user with a lot of things, but it isn't protecting them from a jutsu, lol. 




> You asked for feats, I gave you feats.


Has the feats you provided translated to better? Or simply you mouthing off? It was cited be sealed within the moon. So was Kaguya, but I wouldn't cite she is more durable than PS. After all here arm was cut off by a blitzing Naruto. Horn broken by a Sakura punch. Hurt by a Kamui Rakiri, etc. etc.




> Who the fuck's talking about Rinnegan Sasuke's PS? We're talking about EMS Madara's PS.


You never specified who's PS you were talking about now did you? You cited Gedo Mazo had better feats than PS. But sadly for you PS is PS. It's not as if the Rinnegan altered Madara's PS now did it? But let's be fair to PS here. Are you simply using Nagato's showcasing of Gedo Mazo? Because after all you are using feats generated by Gedo Mazo under different Rinnegan users control.



> What are you even rambling about? We're talking about PS of an EMS user.


Yet even you reference feats performed by Rinnegan Madara using PS. So how am I out of pocket. And you are the one that made this a PS vs. Gedo debate. You didn't specify a Rinnegan user wielding a PS now did you. Just like you probably didn't stick to Nagato's Gedo Mazo showcasing in which he hasn't even utilize the thing as a staple in battle.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Response to the *bold*.
> 
> What feats are you using. Gedo Mazo needed to be defended from Bee and company by Obito. I don't know what you are comparing, but PS is vastly different from Gedo Mazo. It's the most powerful variation of a jutsu that has became a staple for almost all the mainstream Uchiha. Gedo Mazo was always an after thought for a Rinnegan user. The bottom line is Gedo Mazo was mainly utilized as a storage for the nine biju in which PS manage to replicate in the end. You are simply talking reckless when you suggest Gedo Mazo has better feats than Susano'o better yet PS.



Hey, long time!

Gedo Mazo would probably be used if the Rinnegan user felt there was no other option or if they were really angry. The former would be a feat seeing as Rinnegan users tend to have an answer for everything when they're actually using their powers. 

Gedo Mazo probably can outperform Susanoo, PS its hard. Though, the argument for GM beating them has become credible given that we learnt that the Mazou's soul draining dragon jutsu is actually a chakra draining dragon jutsu. That would be bad if it came into contact with any form of Susanoo.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 25, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hey, long time!


Yeah I mostly been reading. I might not be posting, but I am always reading.



> Gedo Mazo would probably be used if the Rinnegan user felt there was no other option or if they were really angry. The former would be a feat seeing as Rinnegan users tend to have an answer for everything when they're actually using their powers


But it isn't like summoning a Susano'o. I always frown on the using a summon for XYZ situation because it ignores the issue of the user not wanting to put set summoning in harms way. Unlike Susano'o Mazo is sentient and the only time it has been called to battle is for preparation of the ten tails or in young Nagato's case, and I do mean young Nagato, going up against someone you have no chance against, and even then the situation with Hanzo was entirely that situational. Note: Nagato never called upon the assistance of Mazo when given access to the six path.



> Gedo Mazo probably can outperform Susanoo, PS its hard. Though, the argument for GM beating them has become credible given that we learnt that the Mazou's soul draining dragon jutsu is actually a chakra draining dragon jutsu. That would be bad if it came into contact with any form of Susanoo.


I recall that feat and I do recall that, that very jutsu require contact. Which does not solve the issue which is EMS Madara. I always regarded EMS Madara as more dangerous than other Uchiha because he lacked options in regards to other Uchiha. Madara won't be caught slipping without a Susano'o of some type. And I'm not entirely limiting him to just PS as we don't know how EMS Madara would approach the situation when he doesn't have Kurama or other option he had as an edo as an option.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 25, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah I mostly been reading. I might not be posting, but I am always reading.



Have you seen the Sannin craze lately?



> But it isn't like summoning a Susano'o. I always frown on the using a summon for XYZ situation because it ignores the issue of the user not wanting to put set summoning in harms way. Unlike Susano'o Mazo is sentient and the only time it has been called to battle is for preparation of the ten tails or in young Nagato's case, and I do mean young Nagato, going up against someone you have no chance against, and even then the situation with Hanzo was entirely that situational. Note: Nagato never called upon the assistance of Mazo when given access to the six path.



Nagato wasn't in a position where he needed to IIRC. Even against Naruto, he didn't feel like he had to. It depends whether we think Madara will push him to that point or not.



> I recall that feat and I do recall that, that very jutsu require contact. Which does not solve the issue which is EMS Madara. I always regarded EMS Madara as more dangerous than other Uchiha because he lacked options in regards to other Uchiha. Madara won't be caught slipping without a Susano'o of some type. And I'm not entirely limiting him to just PS as we don't know how EMS Madara would approach the situation when he doesn't have Kurama or other option he had as an edo as an option.



That jutsu requires contact to kill, that's true. However, given we know it absorbs chakra and not souls, there's a chance it could nullify Susanoo upon contact.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 25, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Have you seen the Sannin craze lately?


Yeah I've been pretty busy reading multiple threads. 





> Nagato wasn't in a position where he needed to IIRC. Even against Naruto, he didn't feel like he had to. It depends whether we think Madara will push him to that point or not.


I don't think Nagato ever wanted to kill Naruto. It would have been Kabuto controlling Nagato to whip it out if he felt it would have been useful for the situation.

With Madara I feel torn, as I don't think he would start off with PS even without Kurama, but I also feel that Nagato would not start of with the statue as his only usage of it is what got his body into the state that it was currently in before death. All the argument of PS vs. Gedo Mazo has no merit as Mazo was never presented as answer to PS, and Nagato may not even see PS if he kills Madara in his lesser forms. The problem with Madara is we don't know how he plans on approaching the situation. It's a stretch to say he would go balls deep and summon PS off the bat, but when you restrict him to utilize just his Mangekyou he kinda has no choice. He doesn't have any other MS jutsu to rely on and you're cutting him off from his other power source which is Kurama. This battle purely relies on if not only PS emerges, but if Nagato could counter it effectively before being overwhelmed. As I said before we've only see Mazo in action in three scenerio's two of which features it as a tool to prep the Juubi. Long story short the thing to ask yourself is would Nagato risk putting his goals at risk even if it meant his death. Because regardless of the option I think we can both agree no statue no Juubi.





> That jutsu requires contact to kill, that's true. However, given we know it absorbs chakra and not souls, there's a chance it could nullify Susanoo upon contact.


But it has never been utilize to absorb tangible chakara only latent. It is a high risk high reward type of scenario because Nagato being hooked up to the Mazo doesn't appear to have anything keeping him from taking assaults. There's nothing to suggest that he's able to perform what he needs to perform with the Mazo and utilize the Rinnegan's other ability simultaneously. Also given what it did to him while he was younger there is still the risk that he might not be able utilize the other statue like that anymore. Let's not pretend the statue isn't also open for a counter assault if hooked up Nagato. This is truly a high risk high reward type of scenario.


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 26, 2019)

Woodward said:


> Mazou's durability >>>> PS's durability/defense. PS was destroyed by Chojo Kebutsu. Mazou tanked the moon's gravity pulling compressed planet-sized rocks. You tell me which durability feat is better?


the Gedo Mazo also was held down by two Jonin


Woodward said:


> You asked for feats, I gave you feats.


And you keep saying "physics doesn't matter! I saw someone cut a cake and another person fall and break a chair, therefore the second person is stronger!"


Woodward said:


> Who the fuck's talking about Rinnegan Sasuke's PS? We're talking about EMS Madara's PS.


The idea is that you severely underestimate the PS. Sasuke, who was arguably weaker than Juubidara, negged all of Madara's CT with a slash of his Susano'o sword


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> learnt that the Mazou's soul draining dragon jutsu is actually a chakra draining dragon jutsu.


Really? I don't remember that...


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## Nuttynutdude (Apr 26, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I don't think Nagato ever wanted to kill Naruto. It would have been Kabuto controlling Nagato to whip it out if he felt it would have been useful for the situation.


Cuz that's why he was yanking Naruto's soul out. To play with him.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 26, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Cuz that's why he was yanking Naruto's soul out. To play with him.


As I said before it would have been Kabuto wielding Gedo Mazo against the likes of Naruto, Bee, and Itachi if that would have been a viable option.


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## Woodward (Apr 26, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Based on what? You do know that Susano'o is a chakara construct that can regenerate it's body simply by deactivating and reactivating. Meanwhile Gedo had to be protected twice. Once against Killerbee's punch. Another from Kumai. So why oh why are you trying to hype it's durability based on something we don't have. You do know the Mazo is made up of flesh, right? How many defensive jutsu it has be utilized against? They not even on the same stratosphere when it comes to overall utility. Mazo may provide it's user with a lot of things, but it isn't protecting them from a jutsu, lol.



No, Susanoo doesn't regenerate or anything. If it can, Madara would have done so when Shinsuusenju busted it. All we need to is Mazo can survive a moon-scale attack, whereas PS can't thus Mazo > PS in durability. Simple as that.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Has the feats you provided translated to better? Or simply you mouthing off? It was cited be sealed within the moon. So was Kaguya, but I wouldn't cite she is more durable than PS. After all here arm was cut off by a blitzing Naruto. Horn broken by a Sakura punch. Hurt by a Kamui Rakiri, etc. etc.



It wasn't cited to be sealed within the moon. Mazo became the actual core for the moon, and do you actually understand the intense heat and gravity compression inside the moon's core? Because if you're trying to imply PS can survive the moon's core heat and gravity, I'm not gonna continue this discussion with you.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> You never specified who's PS you were talking about now did you? You cited Gedo Mazo had better feats than PS. But sadly for you PS is PS. It's not as if the Rinnegan altered Madara's PS now did it? But let's be fair to PS here. Are you simply using Nagato's showcasing of Gedo Mazo? Because after all you are using feats generated by Gedo Mazo under different Rinnegan users control.



A 10 year old would understand I was referring to Madara's PS, since the fucking thread is about Madara and his feats, and you go and bringing me Sasuke's feats a result of your low reading comprehension. I don't have to specify anything. Read the thread's title.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yet even you reference feats performed by Rinnegan Madara using PS. So how am I out of pocket. And you are the one that made this a PS vs. Gedo debate. You didn't specify a Rinnegan user wielding a PS now did you. Just like you probably didn't stick to Nagato's Gedo Mazo showcasing in which he hasn't even utilize the thing as a staple in battle.



Like I said, your low reading comprehension isn't my problem.


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## Woodward (Apr 26, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> the Gedo Mazo also was held down by two Jonin



When was that?



Nuttynutdude said:


> And you keep saying "physics doesn't matter! I saw someone cut a cake and another person fall and break a chair, therefore the second person is stronger!"



Nice try ignoring my previous post to you, which I addressed this nonsense notion of yours. I take it you conceded?



Nuttynutdude said:


> The idea is that you severely underestimate the PS. Sasuke, who was arguably weaker than Juubidara, negged all of Madara's CT with a slash of his Susano'o sword



Sasuke's PS >>>>>>>>>> Madara's PS.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 26, 2019)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yeah I've been pretty busy reading multiple threads.



Have you seen Jiraiya counters Amaterasu by letting his hair burn, or he counters it with his Katon... or Tsuande can counter Amaterasu by punching it. 



> I don't think Nagato ever wanted to kill Naruto. It would have been Kabuto controlling Nagato to whip it out if he felt it would have been useful for the situation.



Son indicated that a fake Edo Tensei Rinnegan could not summon the Gedo Statue. Even the Outer Path stakes didn't work properly for an Edo as Madara showed.



> With Madara I feel torn, as I don't think he would start off with PS even without Kurama, but I also feel that Nagato would not start of with the statue as his only usage of it is what got his body into the state that it was currently in before death. All the argument of PS vs. Gedo Mazo has no merit as Mazo was never presented as answer to PS, and Nagato may not even see PS if he kills Madara in his lesser forms. The problem with Madara is we don't know how he plans on approaching the situation. It's a stretch to say he would go balls deep and summon PS off the bat, but when you restrict him to utilize just his Mangekyou he kinda has no choice. He doesn't have any other MS jutsu to rely on and you're cutting him off from his other power source which is Kurama. This battle purely relies on if not only PS emerges, but if Nagato could counter it effectively before being overwhelmed. As I said before we've only see Mazo in action in three scenerio's two of which features it as a tool to prep the Juubi. Long story short the thing to ask yourself is would Nagato risk putting his goals at risk even if it meant his death. Because regardless of the option I think we can both agree no statue no Juubi.



Nagato didn't even know about the Juubi, however. Though, Madara might have some hesitation as he requires the statue.



> But it has never been utilize to absorb tangible chakara only latent. It is a high risk high reward type of scenario because Nagato being hooked up to the Mazo doesn't appear to have anything keeping him from taking assaults. There's nothing to suggest that he's able to perform what he needs to perform with the Mazo and utilize the Rinnegan's other ability simultaneously. Also given what it did to him while he was younger there is still the risk that he might not be able utilize the other statue like that anymore. Let's not pretend the statue isn't also open for a counter assault if hooked up Nagato. This is truly a high risk high reward type of scenario.



To be fair, it's never been put against tangible chakra. There used to be loads of assumptions about Preta, about how it can't absorb elemental fusions, Bijuu chakra, Senjutsu chakra etc-- but consistent with its explanation, it did. Likely the same applies here. 

Going by the fact Nagato was able to use multiple Paths simultaneously, even after summoning the creature with Hell Realm, it is plausible he can since like the Animal Path summons and Hell Path's summon, the Gedo Mazo is effectively another summon. 

This isn't us considering Nagato's Ninjutsu mastery. They'd be secondary to the Paths, naturally, but they were good enough to not only outstrip Hiruzen's Ninjutsu hype in Jiraiya's mind, but it was also good enough for Jiraiya to opt for SM right away-- Jiraiya only had memories of a 10 year old using it.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Really? I don't remember that...



Databook 4.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Apr 26, 2019)

Woodward said:


> No, Susanoo doesn't regenerate or anything. If it can, Madara would have done so when Shinsuusenju busted it. All we need to is Mazo can survive a moon-scale attack, whereas PS can't thus Mazo > PS in durability. Simple as that.


Are you 
Sure about
that? Are 
you really
really, really
sure?
It can clearly regenerate if the users has enough chakara.

Every Susano'o wielder has shown the ability to recast Susano'o after it has been damage. Madara was likely out of chakara much like Sasuke was here. Suggesting Mazo survived a moon-scale attack after we've witnessed it hurt from a lesser attack may mean that your analysis is flawed. We've seen it get saved from lesser attacks. We've Mazo get hurt and need protection from several non-moon scaled based attacks simple as that.

It doesn't help that Mazo seems to be made out of flesh. Hence is why it bleeds when damaged.





> It wasn't cited to be sealed within the moon. Mazo became the actual core for the moon, and do you actually understand the intense heat and gravity compression inside the moon's core? Because if you're trying to imply PS can survive the moon's core heat and gravity, I'm not gonna continue this discussion with you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nuttynutdude (May 1, 2019)

Woodward said:


> When was that?


Choji and Choza were holding their own vs the Gedo Mazo


Woodward said:


> Nice try ignoring my previous post to you, which I addressed this nonsense notion of yours. I take it you conceded?


No, you said you can't use physics in fiction because physics in the real world don't dictate what can happen in fiction. 


Woodward said:


> Sasuke's PS >>>>>>>>>> Madara's PS.


and Juubidara's CT>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nagato's. your point?


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## Nuttynutdude (May 1, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsuande can counter Amaterasu by punching it.


That was a gem and a half


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## Nuttynutdude (May 1, 2019)

Woodward said:


> It wasn't cited to be sealed within the moon. Mazo became the actual core for the moon, and do you actually understand the intense heat and gravity compression inside the moon's core? Because if you're trying to imply PS can survive the moon's core heat and gravity, I'm not gonna continue this discussion with you.


The gedo mazo was not the core of the moon

First of all, Kaguya was the one that got sucked into the moon
Second, the core is the thing that the rinnegan user releases to make the Chibaku Tensei


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## Nuttynutdude (May 1, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Son indicated that a fake Edo Tensei Rinnegan could not summon the Gedo Statue. Even the Outer Path stakes didn't work properly for an Edo as Madara showed.


Fair enough, I did forget about that fact


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## ThirdRidoku (May 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its a shame that those "most haxx'd weapons in the verse" are absorbent.



No they aren't. Yata is a spiritual* tool *and so is Totsuka. Those weapons aren't absorbable at all, reread the manga/databook.




kokodeshide said:


> Bro, dont even bother with this nonsense. Also, to further prove my point that you started the rage, here is what you said, so that next time you dont forget and accuse me of being the aggressor.







kokodeshide said:


> Manga: Blatantly says Nagato>Itachi



No, it factually doesn't. That's why I think your biased. Kishimoto showed Itachi one shotting Nagato twice.   That is the reason why you can't change my mind dude,  nothing more nothing less.... It's shown on panel. It has nothing at all to do with emotions.



kokodeshide said:


> Seriously? That would turn the earth into a fuckin STAR. Literally, the Earth would ignite and become a star.
> It is literally impossible, but for fun, lets just say the earth was as big as the sun. not FIVE TIMES AS BIG like you are saying. That would make a 150 pound person weigh over 16,000 pounds, bruv. Gravity would be insane. Naruto would weight as much as 4 cars. Every step he took would destroy the ground.
> 
> Now for the reality.
> ...




Thank goodness... I am pleased to come back to see an actual legitimate counterargument from you. Love the physics and the information and the thought put into it,  just reinforces how good of a debator you are when you stop being biased...  I don't care about your nonsense with the circle jerk around the burden of proof. If you can't be sure of the crater size of the VOTE, then you cannot compare it to CST, that goes for BOTH OF US. Which is why it's a null argument. I didn't ask you to prove the true length of VOTE out of the blue, that isn't inherently your job. But,  What I asked you to prove is that the CST crater is greater than the VOTE Crater, which is *what you kept claiming*. *You had yet to provide that proof until this post*, in which you give a physics argument as far why the VOTE crater can't be bigger. So kudos to you.

So okay, CST has more energy output than SS.....

However, you are still far from winning the debate.


The fact remains, CST failed to kill Tsunade and MA who were both near the epicenter of the attack.

CST has no feats at all to suggest it can bust PS, nor SS. And Nagato only has one shot before he is on a long winded cooldown.  You somehow think he can afford to overextend against Hashirama or Madara who can spam attacks that can one shot him faster than he can recharge CST....


Not only that, the stronger CBT (according to you) was shit diff'd by KN8 Naruto with half of kurama's full power.....  You claim it only bust through the top layer, but Nagato's reaction tells it all. It was successfully digging its way out which is why he said he was going to increase the size.  But guess what, you can't just ignore the fact that Kurama still had one more full tail to grow and hadn't attempted using a Biju dama yet.


Hashirama has more chakra than that version of Bijuu mode naruto, and his massive construct easily dwarfs kn8 Naruto in strength if he is a peer to Full Kurama with just the sheer mass of the construct. Hashirama muscles through Chibaku Tensei, same for Madara, assuming they don't just destroy the core before it becomes too big of a problem....  CST gets tanked and reflected.

So TLR, Even if you have proven through math and physics that CST is stronger than Hashirama's strongest attack, the fact remains that an entity weaker than Hashirama broke through the gravitational force (and dug through the massive rocks as well) of Nagato's stronger attack in CBT, and Hashirama and Madara's portrayal remain above Nagato through the other statements.... and feats....  So until you resolve all these issues your argument is still underdeveloped. Kishimoto isn't the king of continuity, unfortunately. I still stand by the fact that Hashirama has significantly more chakra than Nagato which skews a battle of firepower in his favour. But lets see if you can keep up the good trend you have started... come on prove me wrong.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 5, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No, it factually doesn't. That's why I think your biased. Kishimoto showed Itachi one shotting Nagato twice. That is the reason why you can't change my mind dude, nothing more nothing less.... It's shown on panel. It has nothing at all to do with emotions.


Link removed
And supported by the fact that Nagato was leader and more powerful than Pain was was already more powerful than Itachi.
Itachi Needed Support in order to win that fight. Without them, he would have been trapped in that CT.

Think about it like this. there is ONE small mistake Kabuto made that would have won Nagato the fight. The chameleon If he had kept the Chameleon invisible, Itachi would have only  blinded the King of Hell and then tried to swoop in with Susano but it would have been pretad and Nagato would have used his second set of Asura arms to snatch Itachi from the air. GG to all of them.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Thank goodness... I am pleased to come back to see an actual legitimate counterargument from you


Just because i didnt science the hell out of my early counterpoints doesnt mean they were illegitimate.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Love the physics and the information and the thought put into it, just reinforces how good of a debator you are when you stop being biased...


No bias, I was right so you cant say i was Biased. the calc was higher and the calc required for VotE to equal it is impossible so I was never being biased.


ThirdRidoku said:


> I don't care about your nonsense with the circle jerk around the burden of proof. If you can't be sure of the crater size of the VOTE, then you cannot compare it to CST, that goes for BOTH OF US. Which is why it's a null argument. I didn't ask you to prove the true length of VOTE out of the blue, that isn't inherently your job. But, What I asked you to prove is that the CST crater is greater than the VOTE Crater, which is *what you kept claiming*.


No, my claim is based on the calcs of the 2. nothing more.



ThirdRidoku said:


> *You had yet to provide that proof until this post*, in which you give a physics argument as far why the VOTE crater can't be bigger. So kudos to you.
> 
> So okay, CST has more energy output than SS.....


:blu


ThirdRidoku said:


> However, you are still far from winning the debate.



You have already lost... lol.


ThirdRidoku said:


> The fact remains, CST failed to kill Tsunade and MA who were both near the epicenter of the attack.


Ma was on the edge of the crater. she looks at everything from the wall of Konoha.
And tsunade wasn't in the epicenter. You could say she made it an unknown way TOWARDS the epicenter, but she wasnt there.


ThirdRidoku said:


> CST has no feats at all to suggest it can bust PS, nor SS. And Nagato only has one shot before he is on a long winded cooldown. You somehow think he can afford to overextend against Hashirama or Madara who can spam attacks that can one shot him faster than he can recharge CST....


SS>PS
CST>>>SS
CST>>>>PS
Both CST and SS are "blunt" attacks. CST is the more powerful blunt attack, therefore, CST>PS


ThirdRidoku said:


> Not only that, the stronger CBT (according to you) was shit diff'd by KN8 Naruto with half of kurama's full power..... You claim it only bust through the top layer, but Nagato's reaction tells it all. It was successfully digging its way out which is why he said he was going to increase the size. But guess what, you can't just ignore the fact that Kurama still had one more full tail to grow and hadn't attempted using a Biju dama yet.


Lets be clear here, CT is stronger, but it is less effective at killing. Its primarily used for sealing.
KN6's Bijuudama did squat to it though. Hashirama would live for a long time sealed up in a wood ball, but he'd run out of air.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Hashirama has more chakra than that version of Bijuu mode naruto, and his massive construct easily dwarfs kn8 Naruto in strength if he is a peer to Full Kurama with just the sheer mass of the construct. Hashirama muscles through Chibaku Tensei, same for Madara, assuming they don't just destroy the core before it becomes too big of a problem.... CST gets tanked and reflected.


It doesnt work that way, And, through a jinchuriki, a Bujuu is stronger so KN8-9 would absolutely rape Full Kyuubi.
Remember
Naruto<KN0-KN5<50% Kyuubi<SM Naruto<<<KN6<<<KN8<KN9
IMO, KN8 and full kyuubi are close in power.
The other problem is, the bigger they are the harder it will be to escape. More gravity will pull at you and more friction due to the increased surface area.



ThirdRidoku said:


> So TLR, Even if you have proven through math and physics that CST is stronger than Hashirama's strongest attack, the fact remains that an entity weaker than Hashirama broke through the gravitational force (and dug through the massive rocks as well) of Nagato's stronger attack in CBT, and Hashirama and Madara's portrayal remain above Nagato through the other statements.... and feats.... So until you resolve all these issues your argument is still underdeveloped.


Nagatos stronger, but fuctionally different, attack, yes. And KN8 is reallllly fuckin strong. Even KN6 has higher calcs for DC than PS or SS. Thats full jinchuriki bijuu power. Nott the BS half and half BM form Naruto does. KN9 would be much more powerful than BM Naruto.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Kishimoto isn't the king of continuity, unfortunately. I still stand by the fact that Hashirama has significantly more chakra than Nagato which skews a battle of firepower in his favour.


No it doesn't cause, as shown, his strongest attack is weaker than Nagatos. AND, Nagato has preta which was shown to force Hashirama to a stalemate against Edo Madara.


ThirdRidoku said:


> But lets see if you can keep up the good trend you have started... come on prove me wrong.



Too easy, my man...


----------



## X III (May 5, 2019)

Nagato's lowkey fodder. Lost to Talk no Jutsu. Itachi's also fodder. Died to tuberculosis. The realest man was Kisame. Kisame stomps Nagato and Itachi. We need to get Troyse back.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 5, 2019)

X III said:


> Nagato's lowkey fodder. Lost to Talk no Jutsu. Itachi's also fodder. Died to tuberculosis. The realest man was Kisame. Kisame stomps Nagato and Itachi. We need to get Troyse back.



Real thoughts there!


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## Nuttynutdude (May 5, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> It doesnt work that way, And, through a jinchuriki, a Bujuu is stronger so KN8-9 would absolutely rape Full Kyuubi.


hmmmmmmmmm. 1/2 of the 8 tailed Kyuubi + Naruto > full 9 tailed Kyuubi? I didn't realize base Pain Arc Naruto was stronger than half the Kyuubi, thank you for bringing this to my attention


kokodeshide said:


> No it doesn't cause, as shown, his strongest attack is weaker than Nagatos. AND, Nagato has preta which was shown to force Hashirama to a stalemate against Edo Madara.


Hashirama was nerfed for one, had to help deal with Juubito for two, and had to pin down the tree for three. 

Nagato's Chibaku Tensei is probably going to be 2-3x stronger than Pain's, 2 being a pretty fair guess and 3 being a bit generous. Pain's CT could do nothing to the 8 tailed 1/2 Kyuubi, while Hashirama's 1000 armed buddha beat down a full majestic attire clad Kyuubi.

Just because an attack doesn't cause an explosion doesn't mean its weaker. Otherwise Six Paths Kakashi < 4 year old Itachi's kick because Itachi's kick had more collateral damage than Six Path's Kakashi's Kamui Raikiri


----------



## ThirdRidoku (May 5, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> And supported by the fact that Nagato was leader and more powerful than Pain was was already more powerful than Itachi.
> Itachi Needed Support in order to win that fight. Without them, he would have been trapped in that CT.
> 
> Think about it like this. there is ONE small mistake Kabuto made that would have won Nagato the fight. The chameleon If he had kept the Chameleon invisible, Itachi would have only blinded the King of Hell and then tried to swoop in with Susano but it would have been pretad and Nagato would have used his second set of Asura arms to snatch Itachi from the air. GG to all of them.



Bro....

1) Nagato was leader and Obito was manipulating him and He admitted inferiority to Itachi. Not that the leader thing makes a lick of sense given that Itachi's purpose for being in the Akatsuki was that of being a double agent that stalled Akatuski's plans. Taking that route is a dead end for you,  Itachi was the reason both Nagato and Obito couldn't burn Konoha to the ground for 16 years. Obito legit almost died to Minato and lost the kyuubi ( the most powerful bijuu and a necessary asset for Project Tsykuyomi) because of how badly he wanted to crush the village, but yet this guy was willing to wait 16 years and let his organization fall to half its strength in exchange for catching 7 other bijuu... and in the end all that did was unite the ninja world against him. Obito only made it as far as he did after Pain's death because of Kabuto.  Itachi had Koto in the back, and he was only halfway in when it came to dealing with Akatuski. Let's not forget his desire to perish at the hands of Sasuke while still being looked upon as a villain.

2) Yata Mirror shit diff's CBT as per canon dude.... IDK what to tell you.  A shield that can change any of its properties... oh I know? It can become immovable. or simply create and opposite and equal shift in space/time to counter CBT.  Either way, it only protects him based on his fight with Oro. When Oro attack or Sasuke attacked, The mirror adapted accordingly, I have shown you the scans more than once. One Itachi attacked, the mirror didn't do anything to protect other people, so it clearly discriminates. Itachi was the only one who wasn't panicking when CBT was launched (Bee doesn't count because he is a chill rap loving god), he helped naruto and Bee to destroy it because they didn't have any other way of dealing with it, and at this point in the story, Itachi isn't the type to just leave his allies out of the picture. The Mirror doesn't necessarily destroy it has only been shown to protect or deflect with the minimum amount of effort.

3) The Chameleon thing is the only valid point you have here... but it doesn't matter.

You still consistently ignore the fact that with or without the chameleon, Nagato can't mentally react to Itachi.  I proved why. I'll summarize again:

One: JUDGEMENT. Itachi analyzed the situation quickly and accurately. He didn't just jump in like Bee did, and like you claimed he would. Itachi doesn't fight like that, and you know it. His defining traits are his wisdom and intellect. Bee made himself a big target by just jumping in from above. He didn't have the knowledge on the shared vision, but nonetheless.... Itachi figured out how to beat the shared vision faster than anyone else in the manga. Jiraiya admitted to noticing the Pains carefully watching him but he didn't think anything of it until it happened twice and with help from Pa.  Kakashi legit had amnesia and forgot about it mid battle against Deva and Ashura. Itachi saw the shared vision snipe Bee for the first time, *immediately understood what happened, then was smart enough to throw kunai. *The choice of kunai was intelligent because their small objects so they are harder to see then a full grown human when moving at high speeds, and he was smart enough to also instantly grasp the natural blindspots of the rinnegan.  The chameleon nor the Hell nor Nagato could see any of the kunai, even though all 22 kunai were directly in their SHARED field of vision, so the number of eyes wasn't the issue.


2)

Nagato was focusing on Naruto and Bee and was using shurado and ningendo simultaneously. So sure, some of his attention was diverted, but that isn't an excuse because you consistently wank Nagato's attention capabilities except for when it clearly fails him. Nagato had three stimuli to react to.

Kabuto legit said that all of Itachi's kunai fell into Nagato's natural blindspot and were unavoidable. So we can assume that Nagato can't see his kunai.

Stimulus 1:
However, once the kunai landed on his summons, again, two of Nagato's security cameras suddenly went black. That means Nagato was aware Itachi reentered the fight, and was aware of the threat.

Stimulus 2: It's true Kabuto wasn't aware that Nagato can activate Sensory Mode, but like I said, ALL ninja can sense chakra on a *basic level* if it's dense enough, concenrated enough, visible, ESPECIALLY a construct like Susano'o which manifests the user's emotions....  All ninja have the basic ability to sense this chakra and identify who it belongs to, even if they can't precisely sense how far it is or it's movement.  If his summons getting blinded didn't tip him off, then v2 Susano'o is a true wake up call.

Stimulus 3: Said construct then places it's GIGANTIC HAND on the ground and starts sliding it. Nagato can absolutely see such a large object if his visual reflexex are as good as you claim it is even with the unquantifiable attention deficit he had from attacking naruto and Bee. And this is the third competing stimulus. It's a HUGE stretch to say that he hasn't noticed Itachi's presence at this point.... and he couldn't activate Preta at all.


And finally, again, Nagato got blitz'd by Totsuka: He was directly looking up at the blade as it came out of the smoke from a comfortable distance away, and again v4 Susano'o can be sensed on a basic level.  Itachi doesn't need support to create a smokescreen, he could do that in 6 different ways just off the top of my head. and the fact that Nagato can only focus on two targets and two jutsu before Itachi can blitz him isn't a good thing. Itachi is faster than Nagato in every way and combos his attacks intelligently. It's not hard for him to pincer Nagato with a katon from the front and a shadow clone from behind or above like he has already did in the canon.

This is why the chameleon thing doesn't matter. Even If Itachi failed to take it out with the kunai the scenario remains unchanged. The mere fact that Itachi is clad in v2 Susano'o and knocked out a security camera already tipped Nagato off, he simply couldn't react. And Itachi can replicate the diversion Naruto and Bee created in more than one way.






And lol, don't even bring the 6 Pains into the picture, Itachi rofl stomps the slower and weaker Pains especially if they open with T- formations. 3-4 pains standing one behind the other isn't a good idea when Totsuka blitz is a thing. All 3-4 pains would be immediately skewered by a forward Totsuka thrust (Preta Path is the first to go because Pain puts him in front) and they would all instantly die from being impaled and/or the subsequent sealing. And Pain's sensory abilities with the 6 paths of pain is utter trash, if Naruto could get a clone behind Naraka In the back Itachi does it in his sleep. Then the last two pains get cleaned up by amaterasu or an exploding clone. Itachi is too fast and too quick and more skilled.





kokodeshide said:


> Just because i didnt science the hell out of my early counterpoints doesnt mean they were illegitimate.



Dude, that's how a debate is. A debate is about proving your point to the other side. You can't control whether or not someone understands the evidence but you can control what evidence you present to support your claim. All I asked for is definitive proof that Nagato's crater was bigger, which your previous arguments did not provide. I would have agreed with you earlier if Kishimoto had shown the end point of the VOTE, but he never did, while he clearly did for CST. If the start and end point aren't defined then no one can say that the CST crater is greater or smaller. The end point of the VOTE was never shown because Kishimoto never focused on showing it. His drawings show that the valley is large but I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a dam about VS debates, so I can't fault him for not squeezing in a comprehensive aerial shot of it or giving a proper scale on the map for it.  It's not the same thing as the iron deposit example you used, because then that just becomes a slippery slope of claims that can't be disproven but can't be proven either. However, proving that the valley cannot be physically long enough  to match the crater in size through scientific means is helpful proof.





kokodeshide said:


> Ma was on the edge of the crater. she looks at everything from the wall of Konoha.
> And tsunade wasn't in the epicenter. You could say she made it an unknown way TOWARDS the epicenter, but she wasnt there.
> SS>PS
> CST>>>SS
> ...




Yeah,  but Tsunade survived is the point. She was approaching the epicenter and was pushed back and injured, not killed.  She has a tiny surface area, but nonetheless, her durability pales in comparison to SS and PS, not just in tensile srength, but her mass and density is also much smaller so the acceleration she experiences is much greater than that of these huge constructs....  I concede on Ma because she could have possibly moved to the epicenter to summon naruto after the attack went off.




kokodeshide said:


> t doesnt work that way, And, through a jinchuriki, a Bujuu is stronger so KN8-9 would absolutely rape Full Kyuubi.
> Remember
> Naruto<KN0-KN5<50% Kyuubi<SM Naruto<<<KN6<<<KN8<KN9
> IMO, KN8 and full kyuubi are close in power.
> The other problem is, the bigger they are the harder it will be to escape. More gravity will pull at you and more friction due to the increased surface area.



 How are you even quantifying this? I would agree that BM kn8  Jin Naruto is greater than half of K8 Kurama, but it's a stretch to claim that BM Kn8 naruto is greater than FULL Kurama which is literally a x 2 boost. Full Kurama is not only larger than half of Kurama it also has double the chakra. BASE Hashirama has more chakra than War Arc BM Naruto.... SM Hashirama (which gets a boost to strength and chakra) fought full Kurama and with SS and overpowered it in a fight of physical strength and made it close its eyes in pain and held it in place with it's sheer size advantage.


And Kn8 Naruto logically would be weaker than a full-fledged War Arc BM Naruto just based on the fact naruto and Kurama are fighting as one and pooling their chakra together efficiently.


Increased Friction and increased surface area is nice and all and the additional mass obviously would increase the gravitational force experienced by both bodies in question but if Kurama can dig it's way out so can SS. The fact that CBT is stronger than CST would also imply the gravitational force it exerts is also stronger.... and Kurama had to overpower the pull that was keeping the planetoid in the sky in order to dig out and move closer toward the ground, on top of the force required to bust through the rocks.... So you haven't won yet....




kokodeshide said:


> No it doesn't cause, as shown, his strongest attack is weaker than Nagatos. AND, Nagato has preta which was shown to force Hashirama to a stalemate against Edo Madara.



Dude, Madara can absorb nature energy indefinitely, the same cannot be said for Nagato who canonically turned into a toad...  And I recall Hashirama finding a solution to Preta.... what stalemated them is the fact that Madara managed to tag him with the rods.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> He admitted inferiority to Itachi.


Neither Obito nor Nagato admitted inferiority to Itachi. It was actually pretty clear that Itachi COULDN'T defeat either of them


ThirdRidoku said:


> Madara can absorb nature energy indefinitely


Six Paths Madara can, saying base can do the same is wanking Madara a little bit. We've seen he CAN manipulate senjutsu chakra really well when he absrorbed Hashirama's sage mode, but saying he can absorb it *indefinitely* is a bit of a stretch, especially considering its perfectly possible a big reason he did that was because Hashirama already made the perfect amount of sage chakra, so Madara didn't have to balance it out himself


----------



## kokodeshide (May 6, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> 1) Nagato was leader and Obito was manipulating him and He admitted inferiority to Itachi.


Obito was manipulation him with the name Madara and wisdom. not with power like he did Yagura,


ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi was the reason both Nagato and Obito couldn't burn Konoha to the ground for 16 years


No, Itachi was the reason OBITO couldnt. Not nagato. and that was only about what like 8 years?

Nagato straight up sends  shit to konoha. Itachi volunteers to prevent disaster. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> 2) Yata Mirror shit diff's CBT as per canon dude.... IDK what to tell you. A shield that can change any of its properties... oh I know? It can become immovable. or simply create and opposite and equal shift in space/time to counter CBT.


I believe the shield says it has all the nature types and can shift to cancel out all their attacks. But it says nothing about making it immovable. Thats pure headcanon. And even if it did negate gravity's pull on itself, it doesnt stop the rocks underneath him from being lifted.


ThirdRidoku said:


> he helped naruto and Bee to destroy it because they didn't have any other way of dealing with it,


No, he helped them because *all them them* didnt have another way to deal with it.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Itachi figured out how to beat the shared vision faster than anyone else in the manga. Jiraiya admitted to noticing the Pains carefully watching him but he didn't think anything of it until it happened twice and with help from Pa.


To be fair, Itachi was able to deal with it while he wasnt in danger of being attacked.



ThirdRidoku said:


> 3) The Chameleon thing is the only valid point you have here... but it doesn't matter.
> 
> You still consistently ignore the fact that with or without the chameleon, Nagato can't mentally react to Itachi. I proved why. I'll summarize again:
> 
> ...


Lots of assumptions here. to shorten things, i'll address thhe bulk of why your wrong in one of the next sections.


ThirdRidoku said:


> And finally, again, Nagato got blitz'd by Totsuka: He was directly looking up at the blade as it came out of the smoke from a comfortable distance away, and again v4 Susano'o can be sensed on a basic level. Itachi doesn't need support to create a smokescreen, he could do that in 6 different ways just off the top of my head. and the fact that Nagato can only focus on two targets and two jutsu before Itachi can blitz him isn't a good thing. Itachi is faster than Nagato in every way and combos his attacks intelligently. It's not hard for him to pincer Nagato with a katon from the front and a shadow clone from behind or above like he has already did in the canon.


He was only blitzed because he wasn't sensing. If he sensed a giant chakra monster in the smoke, he wouldnt have a reason to simply stand there. and like i proved before, you can still do shit after being hit by totsuka. He can easily use a summon to tak himself off or CST Itachi Away.


ThirdRidoku said:


> This is why the chameleon thing doesn't matter. Even If Itachi failed to take it out with the kunai the scenario remains unchanged. The mere fact that Itachi is clad in v2 Susano'o and knocked out a security camera already tipped Nagato off, he simply couldn't react. And Itachi can replicate the diversion Naruto and Bee created in more than one way.


Ok so, the problem is, the security camera going off doesnt tell you WHERE Itachi is. Only that he is approaching. If he could see him approaching, He can activate Preta. Easy peasy. then snatch Itachi with his second set of arms. Easy peasy.


ThirdRidoku said:


> And lol, don't even bring the 6 Pains into the picture, Itachi rofl stomps the slower and weaker Pains especially if they open with T- formations. 3-4 pains standing one behind the other isn't a good idea when Totsuka blitz is a thing. All 3-4 pains would be immediately skewered by a forward Totsuka thrust (Preta Path is the first to go because Pain puts him in front) and they would all instantly die from being impaled and/or the subsequent sealing. And Pain's sensory abilities with the 6 paths of pain is utter trash, if Naruto could get a clone behind Naraka In the back Itachi does it in his sleep. Then the last two pains get cleaned up by amaterasu or an exploding clone. Itachi is too fast and too quick and more skilled.


lol, no. You want to talk about statements, Obito knew itachi and Pain, He only referred to one of them as invincible.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Dude, that's how a debate is. A debate is about proving your point to the other side.


No, a debate isn't about placating every single opponent. its about being clear and concise. if i have to spend time sciencing the hell out of everything i waste time i could use to deal with other points.
A corrected version of you statement would be "Thats hoow a debate with ME is".


ThirdRidoku said:


> You can't control whether or not someone understands the evidence but you can control what evidence you present to support your claim


This is the truest statement ever made.



ThirdRidoku said:


> All I asked for is definitive proof that Nagato's crater was bigger, which your previous arguments did not provide. I would have agreed with you earlier if Kishimoto had shown the end point of the VOTE, but he never did, while he clearly did for CST. If the start and end point aren't defined then no one can say that the CST crater is greater or smaller. The end point of the VOTE was never shown because Kishimoto never focused on showing it. His drawings show that the valley is large but I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a dam about VS debates, so I can't fault him for not squeezing in a comprehensive aerial shot of it or giving a proper scale on the map for it.


You dont understand. Sometimes we have to just work with what we have.

And, what if i couldnt scientifically prove it to your ridiculous standards, luckily i could in this situation but in other i might not be able to, then you can just ask for ridiculous standards of proof all day.


ThirdRidoku said:


> It's not the same thing as the iron deposit example you used, because then that just becomes a slippery slope of claims that can't be disproven but can't be proven either.


It is the exact same. You could literally stonewall me all day with, "well you cant prove the material, you cant prove the x the y the z the h the t, etc etc."


ThirdRidoku said:


> However, proving that the valley cannot be physically long enough to match the crater in size through scientific means is helpful proof.


Yes, but like i said, i just happened to be able to do that in this situation. In another i might not be able to.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah, but Tsunade survived is the point. She was approaching the epicenter and was pushed back and injured, not killed. She has a tiny surface area, but nonetheless, her durability pales in comparison to SS and PS, not just in tensile srength, but her mass and density is also much smaller so the acceleration she experiences is much greater than that of these huge constructs.... I concede on Ma because she could have possibly moved to the epicenter to summon naruto after the attack went off.


Like you said, surface area matters and substance matters. PS will last longer than the SS, But both will be killed. PS lost to an attack over 1000 times weaker. how could PS tank CST?



ThirdRidoku said:


> How are you even quantifying this? I would agree that BM kn8 Jin Naruto is greater than half of K8 Kurama, but it's a stretch to claim that BM Kn8 naruto is greater than FULL Kurama which is literally a x 2 boost. Full Kurama is not only larger than half of Kurama it also has double the chakra. BASE Hashirama has more chakra than War Arc BM Naruto.... SM Hashirama (which gets a boost to strength and chakra) fought full Kurama and with SS and overpowered it in a fight of physical strength and made it close its eyes in pain and held it in place with it's sheer size advantage.


This is a bit complicated, but,
1. SM Naruto was FAR weaker than KN6. but possibly stronger than KN4.
2. SM Naruto also slapped around 50% kyuubi. Meaning KN6 would do much better than SM Naruto.
3. that means that A jinchuriki version of 50% Kyuubi at only 6 tails in V2 form is stronger than the full version of himself as just a bijuu.
I'll explain more in a second.


ThirdRidoku said:


> And Kn8 Naruto logically would be weaker than a full-fledged War Arc BM Naruto just based on the fact naruto and Kurama are fighting as one and pooling their chakra together efficiently.


Nope, because, Kyuubi was GIVING his chakra to Naruto for free. V2 is when you take the chakra AND get the WILL of the bijuu which is basically the other half of its power. So KCM is only half of 50% Kyuubi basically like a V1 KN9.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Increased Friction and increased surface area is nice and all and the additional mass obviously would increase the gravitational force experienced by both bodies in question but if Kurama can dig it's way out so can SS. The fact that CBT is stronger than CST would also imply the gravitational force it exerts is also stronger.... and Kurama had to overpower the pull that was keeping the planetoid in the sky in order to dig out and move closer toward the ground, on top of the force required to bust through the rocks.... So you haven't won yet....


The thing you arent factoring in is the durability of the SS. It is likely to be ripped apart by CT. And CST is not a force like CT. one is push one  is pull.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Dude, Madara can absorb nature energy indefinitely, the same cannot be said for Nagato who canonically turned into a toad... And I recall Hashirama finding a solution to Preta.... what stalemated them is the fact that Madara managed to tag him with the rods.


Since when can he absorb it indefinitely? Where did you get that?


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## kokodeshide (May 6, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> hmmmmmmmmm. 1/2 of the 8 tailed Kyuubi + Naruto > full 9 tailed Kyuubi? I didn't realize base Pain Arc Naruto was stronger than half the Kyuubi, thank you for bringing this to my attention


Based on the fact thaat SM naruto>.50% Kkyuubi and KN6>>>>>SM Naruto. It makes sense. The jinchuriki boost is incredible.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Hashirama was nerfed for one, had to help deal with Juubito for two, and had to pin down the tree for three.


Hashirama was less nerfed than Madara. He did 1 thing to juubito with a clone. and he didnt do shit to the tree.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Nagato's Chibaku Tensei is probably going to be 2-3x stronger than Pain's, 2 being a pretty fair guess and 3 being a bit generous. Pain's CT could do nothing to the 8 tailed 1/2 Kyuubi, while Hashirama's 1000 armed buddha beat down a full majestic attire clad Kyuubi.


He beat the PS off of it and left Kyuubi completely unharmed. Nothing hashirama can do can fuck with the kyuubi in terms of power. Kyuubi at half power took a Juubilaser, missing a few tails. SS isnt shit to Kyuubi.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Just because an attack doesn't cause an explosion doesn't mean its weaker. Otherwise Six Paths Kakashi < 4 year old Itachi's kick because Itachi's kick had more collateral damage than Six Path's Kakashi's Kamui Raikiri


I dont now how you got this from what I said.


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## ThirdRidoku (May 7, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Neither Obito nor Nagato admitted inferiority to Itachi. It was actually pretty clear that Itachi COULDN'T defeat either of them
> 
> Six Paths Madara can, saying base can do the same is wanking Madara a little bit. We've seen he CAN manipulate senjutsu chakra really well when he absrorbed Hashirama's sage mode, but saying he can absorb it *indefinitely* is a bit of a stretch, especially considering its perfectly possible a big reason he did that was because Hashirama already made the perfect amount of sage chakra, so Madara didn't have to balance it out himself



1) Obito admitted inferiority to Itachi on panel.  He literally says it on panel. He watched the fight between Itachi and Sasuke from start to finish using Black Zetsu event recording. He nearly died to Amaterasu after crying out in pain for several moments. Outright said that Itachi would have killed him with full knowledge, that's an admission of inferiority. Itachi one shotted Nagato twice in the canon, nothing more to be said. And Obito didn't even know that Itachi had Koto Amatsukami which would one shot both him and Nagato... Nagato couldn't even Sense Koto when it was used right in front of him. If Itachi wanted either of them dead without a chance of failure, he would have used Koto, but he had other obligations. Inb4 Nagato and Obito are immune to Koto, a technique that can be used without eye contact....

2)  Madara literally experienced the nature energy for the first time and realized it wouldn't be too difficult to control. Nagato was in the same spot but he was instantly shit diff'd. Hashirama wasn't even in SM when Madara stole the nature energy. Madara can absorb it indefinitely because he can perfectly master the control over it, unlike Nagato. Madara entered SM. We know masters of SM can absorb nature energy indefinitely without any issue because SM Kabuto absorbs nature energy passively thanks to Juugo's cells. Kurama legit absorbed nature energy from all over the planet for SPSM Naruto too.






kokodeshide said:


> Obito was manipulation him with the name Madara and wisdom. not with power like he did Yagura,
> No, Itachi was the reason OBITO couldnt. Not nagato. and that was only about what like 8 years?
> 
> Nagato straight up sends shit to konoha. Itachi volunteers to prevent disaster.



Obito legit tells Nagato at one point that failure to capture Naruto would not be tolerated.... and Pain didn't say anything back lol. Obito is portrayed above Nagato in that regard.

Lol wut? Dude, during the night of the Uchiha Massacre Obito agreed to not ever touch Konoha or Sasuke, and he is the one who gives Nagato orders. Nagato has a large degree of autonomy yes, but he can't take any actions that Obito doesn't approve of.


Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame to Konoha to capture naruto because the village was weakened, and because Itachi obviously knows how to enter the village stealthily. The mission was to capture naruto, not destroy konoha, that's an important distinction you are missing. And Itachi intentionally failed that mission, even Kisame was skeptical of the retreat.



 The point is, neither Obito or Nagato can destroy the village while Itachi is in the organization, Obito himself made that clear and he intentionally waited for Itachi to die/be near death to begin making his moves.... Without Itachi, Obito would have just sent Nagato himself to take vengeance on Konoha back in part one. Pain and Konan would capture 12 year old Naruto and flatten konoha without any issues. Itachi stopped that because only he gets to go to Konoha and as such he can fight the Konoha ninjas at the village on his own terms.

After Itachi died, Pain went to the village. Even after he got information on where naruto was, he didn't have to destroy the village. But he wanted to because that was his justice dude... he literally gave you an entire speech on why he did it. That justice came 16 years late because his boss wasn't allowed to give him the green light. And Obito was clearly not entirely happy that he had to wait that long either, which means what Itachi gave him in return was not ideal. In the end, it was Konoha that did the bulk of the effort in the fourth ninja War too. Itachi's Kotoamatsukami plan would have put EMS Sasuke on Naruto's side too. Itachi literally saved the world while trying to complete conflicting objectives.


Obito approved of Nagato's desire to send Kisame and Nagato to capture the nine tails in part One because he knew the real reason why Itachi was in the organization, UNLIKE NAGATO. From Nagato's perspective, Itachi and Kisame simply failed. From Obito's perspective, Itachi was there to see to Sasuke safety and to warn Konoha of the threat the Akatsuki presented.....


Nagato never sent anyone to the village for 3 years after that. And then Kakazu and Hidan were only going to Konoha to pursue the Jinchuriki and their bounty, not to destroy the village. There is a difference.



kokodeshide said:


> I believe the shield says it has all the nature types and can shift to cancel out all their attacks. But it says nothing about making it immovable. Thats pure headcanon. And even if it did negate gravity's pull on itself, it doesnt stop the rocks underneath him from being lifted.



The shield has ALL nature types dude. Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin ( and by extension Chibaku Tensei) is a shift in space/time caused by the possession of all 5 elements according to Databook. The shield isn't limited to just the 5 elements either. It has ALL nature types, and combined nature transformations like wood release are confirmed to be under that umbrella. And the shield is explicitly stated to be able to deflect any kind of attack. This is an unacceptable denial of the canon. The shield can become immovable if it wants because it can change any of its properties, nowhere is it stated to be limited to changing its elements. In fact, in the manga, it has never used the elemental change property. In the manga, it changed in size and shape multiple times in response to the attacks it received. I already made a compendium of the scans for this and showed it to you in more than one thread. Almost all attacks in naruto do damage or harm through the transfer of kinetic energy, it's just how it works. Punches and kicks transfer kinetic energy. Explosions transfer kinetic energy ( and even heating things up is a type of kinetic energy transfer, and likewise freeze damage takes energy away).  ST, BT and CBT are no exceptions to that. Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin ( and CBT, which is just a super Bansho Tenin) are just two different sides of the same coin, i.e the direction of the gravitational wave emitted is opposite, one pushes one pulls.

Even if the rocks underneath Itachi are initially lifted The Yata mirror would stop them from harming him or his Susano'o, there is no way around this.




kokodeshide said:


> No, he helped them because *all them them* didnt have another way to deal with it.


The headcanon is on your end.  Black Zetsu has seen Chibaku Tensei and he declared the YM invincible. Kishimoto reinforced the claim with the Databook description that the shield changes its properties, which we SAW happen on panel, please stop ignoring this. Itachi has the YM to deal with it, period.




kokodeshide said:


> He was only blitzed because he wasn't sensing. If he sensed a giant chakra monster in the smoke, he wouldnt have a reason to simply stand there. and like i proved before, you can still do shit after being hit by totsuka. He can easily use a summon to tak himself off or CST Itachi Away.



Wrong. Chakra sensing happens on a basic level and is *passive*. Kakashi and Zabuza both passively sensed Naruto's kyuubi chakra and kakashi even idenitified it correctly. Another compendium of scans I have posted to you in the past that you also continue to ignore, go figure. Nagato can absolutely sense a giant chakra monster with his passive chakra sensing. Like I said,  people who are NOT SENSOR TYPES have *sensed large chakras from MILES away*. Even Itachi could sense the chakra of Orochimaru's Hydra despite being completely blind in BOTH of his eyes. This is more headcanon from you.

And don't make things up please. Nagato in the past, ironically after the destruction of his chibaku tensei in the Pain ARC,  stood and watched Naruto drop smoke bombs and stood there and waited for the rasenshurikens to come out. He was even anticipating said Rasensurikens ahead of time yet he stood there in the same spot and waited for them to emerge from the smoke instead of just using Shinra Tensei immediately to clear the smoke. He wasted shinra Tensei on the first rasenshuriken, and if Naruto's second rasenshuriken expanded it like it did before then Pain wouldn't have been able to dodge.


Plus , chakra sensing even in sensory mode generally isn't a substitute for seeing the attack with your eyes, and Nagato was watching the blade as it came out of the smoke. 
It's his* fighting style *to stand his ground and counter attacks as they come out of smoke. His plan was obvious, react to Naruto/Bee/Itachi's attack as it comes out of the smoke. The problem was he made that mistake against an attack that was too fast for him to mentally react to, i/e Totsuka.  And I like how Nagato's IQ just suddenly dropped to zero when it's convenient for your argument? His CBT was just destroyed and there is a big ass smokescreen. How much common sense does it take to tell that your enemies are hiding in the smoke?????


 Totsuka is an insta-game over once it lands. Kabuto lost control over Nagato and couldn't do anything about it. Orochimaru started melting away after he was hit and could do nothing.  The manga and databook show this. You didn't prove anything, you just made a false claim that Orochimaru substituted out, and we both know that didn't happen. His reaction to realizing he was stabbed by the blade was one of anxiety and fear. Zetsu even says right after that Totsuka is part of the reason Itachi is invincible. Orochimaru and other Akatsuki members were searching for that blade but according to you the blade is useless trash that be countered even after it has already impaled the victim.... unreal man. This is why I think your biased... You ignore the fact that Edo Nagato and Orochimaru are both immortal.... alive Nagato would immediately die from being stabbed by that blade and would bleed out, he isn't activating any technique after being stabbed by it man, and we know the blade can kill like a normal blade because it decapitated all the hydra snakes and killed them.

Orochimaru =/= his snakes, as seen when the snakes died to Amaterasu. Orochimaru wouldn't have died to amaterasu. There is a reason why he couldn't be brought back without Sasuke's and Kabuto's help after he was sealed into the gourd.




kokodeshide said:


> Ok so, the problem is, the security camera going off doesnt tell you WHERE Itachi is. Only that he is approaching. If he could see him approaching, He can activate Preta. Easy peasy. then snatch Itachi with his second set of arms. Easy peasy.



Okay, progress here, finally..... But it doesn't matter. Nagato was aware of Itachi's presence the moment his sentry posts were blinded.... Itachi came from the side with a giant ass hand. Nagato can see that and react accordingly. Even the animators for the anime reasoned that much because in the anime Nagato turns his head when Itachi places the hand down. If you know a threat is coming but you don't know where from, then the first instinct is looking around, but Nagato couldn't react because Itachi was too fast. We know Itachi started from very far away because you can see it from the trajectory of the kunai... he threw them from deep into the forest. How much time do you think elapsed between the kunais hitting the eyes of the summon and then Itachi appearing?



kokodeshide said:


> To be fair, Itachi was able to deal with it while he wasnt in danger of being attacked.



I am being fair. Itachi wasn't in danger but his allies were literally seconds away from dying. Discerning the mechanics of the shared vision isn't trivial, like at all.... Jiraiya and Pa combined have over a century of experience.... They still needed to see it twice, and then RETREAT to come up with a strategy and they had plenty of time because they hid and ran through the pipes.
Itachi literally had a moment to deduce the correct strategy. Bee was seen and then caught, restrained, and had a laser to his head in no more than a minute. Kakashi was also told about the shared vision ahead of time by Pa and he still got duped by it mid battle. Naruto did well against the shared vision but at his best he is literally Itachi 2.0 when it comes to tactics so it's not surprsing, and even he had prior intel.



kokodeshide said:


> lol, no. You want to talk about statements, Obito knew itachi and Pain, He only referred to one of them as invincible.



How about the final antagonist who manipulated Obito calling Itachi invincible???? Lets see you top that.


kokodeshide said:


> No, a debate isn't about placating every single opponent. its about being clear and concise. if i have to spend time sciencing the hell out of everything i waste time i could use to deal with other points.
> A corrected version of you statement would be "Thats hoow a debate with ME is".



Bro, a debate is a form of discourse wherein you evaluate facts, make a claim, and use facts to support said claim. Being clear is important, but being concise is highly situational. Being concise means to present alot of information in a few words. This can be done and should be done when possible , but it obviously isn't always possible. Which is why textbooks debating subjects can go for thousands of pages... If you didn't explain the details then I would be in the dark. Unless you could compress those details into a few sentences, Idk what to tell you. I'm sorry you feel that it's wasting time but I was under the impression that you have plenty of time and interest.




kokodeshide said:


> You dont understand. Sometimes we have to just work with what we have.
> 
> And, what if i couldnt scientifically prove it to your ridiculous standards, luckily i could in this situation but in other i might not be able to, then you can just ask for ridiculous standards of proof all day.



I don't think it's a ridiculous standard at all...  it just shows the limitation of the debating. If 6000 years ago  in a different debate you told me infrared waves and subatomic particles exist but couldn't prove it then you would lose the debate. Doesn't mean you were wrong, but it's useless if you can't prove the claim, whether it's due to lack of knowledge or lack of the appropriate tools or technological capital.... That's the whole point of science.... a continuous and endless cycle of analyzing nature and supporting claims on how it works... There was a time when the majority of the scientific community didn't believe that DNA was the genetic material due to what we now know are inaccurate purification methods. ,  was snubbed out of the Nobel prize for his work on linking DNA to bacterial transformation. It wasn't till years later that someone was clever enough to use radioactive labeling on DNA molecules to prove that it transferred information from the parent cells to the offspring cells. Just shows you that if you are unable to prove your claim or present the proper evidence or counter-evidence you will lose, but it has nothing to do with whether you or wrong or right in some cases.... Because it's about proving your claim with the current knowledge available to another human being(s) is the problem.






kokodeshide said:


> Like you said, surface area matters and substance matters. PS will last longer than the SS, But both will be killed. PS lost to an attack over 1000 times weaker. how could PS tank CST?



Yeah but STRENGTH also matters..... Kurama is a large object with large surface area
but his physical strength overcame the gravitional pull and the fricion and the mass of the rocks it was fighting against.... Hashirama's SS literally could run with a giant 1000 armed kanon its back, it has incredible strength. It detached said kanon after all the arms were expelled presumably to boost mobility, and it easily rag dolled Kurama in place, Kurama could do nothing to escape the grip, and Kurama is one of the strongest entities in the series. Chibaku Tensei isn't ripping apart SS, it would just lift it up just like everything else.


Your arguments still do not stand up to the rest of the scrutiny I am presenting. You won one battle , and The battle you won, was pretty decisive but that was only on one front bud. The war is still raging.

Nagato's CST crater is bigger than Hashirama's and as such more total energy was released. I can no longer dispute that, but there is a lot more going on than just that. First of all, you have not at all adequately addressed the meteor argument. You say that Ohnoki and Gaara survived it as a means to undermine the feat.  However, there is obviously a lot more going on then you admit. First of all, the meteor was pulled from outer space and it was clearly suffering from ablation, and because it's so large it would have retained most of it's cosmic velocity as it burned through the upper atmosphere. The attack literally caused an earthquake that was felt countries away.... which you keep ignoring. Madara literally stated from the get go that this was a suicide technique, and this is the same guy that has PS to shield himself. meaning PS's durability can't stand up to the kinetic energy of a meteor that large and that fast. Madara's body and the Susano'o variant he had up were completely destroyed. So why should I take Ohnoki surviving it seriously? Madara's Susano'o in its weakest form only took a crack from Odama Rasengan, and only took a crack from Tsunade in her strongest form, yet meteors which can apparently destroy Madara's PS can't obliterate Ohnoki? I

So Ohnoki can survive a punch from Tsunade? I think not. The meteor logically is moving at hypersonic speeds which is why it has been calc'd at country level, which is why Madara (and Hashi) are consistently compared to Kurama.  We have seen Nagato use that same technique and it was much smaller in scale compared to Madara's which just reinforces the chakra difference between the two.  IMO, something off Panel happened with Gaara's sand and that's what allowed Ohnoki to survive.

Tsunade surviving CST can't be scrutinized in the same way because CST's power was established at the same time Tsunade survived it, and has never been used again.

Furthermore, if Tsunade survived it then Hashirama sure as hell is surviving CST, which is why it's a moot point. Same for Madara.  And using CST is literally a huge opportunity cost for Nagato. It turns off his Deva Path for a while.


kokodeshide said:


> SM Naruto also slapped around 50% kyuubi. Meaning KN6 would do much better than SM Naruto.



How???? Naruto lifted Kyuubi up yes which is a feat of lifting strength but we have never seen him grapple down Kyuubi the way Hashirama did. Naruto is still significantly less massive than Kurama. His first rasengam got deflected away.... except for when he did the 20+ ones and even then it wasn't anywhere near enough, not even rasenshuriken did the job. Naruto had help from Bee and his mom and even then he barely made it, he extracted the chakra just before Kurama was ready to initiate another offensive.

 In no world is SM  Naruto stronger than half of kyuubi... Base naruto has x4 the chakra of Kakashi. Even if we assume that SM is a x 2  boost.... he still doesn't get up to x100 the strength of kakashi, which the full power of the HALF of Kyuubi would provide him according to Kakashi.



kokodeshide said:


> Nope, because, Kyuubi was GIVING his chakra to Naruto for free. V2 is when you take the chakra AND get the WILL of the bijuu which is basically the other half of its power. So KCM is only half of 50% Kyuubi basically like a V1 KN9.



KCM Naruto was taking chakra from Kurama but Kurama was also taking chakra from him. KCM2 Naruto got Kurama's full cooperation so now their chakra reserves are one.  That is why he became a Perfect Jinchuriki Like Bee. So all you have done here is prove that there shouldn't be any difference from kn8 Naruto and KCM2 Naruto.  and if we cut kurama's chakra in half, the equation is still in balance. And SM Hashi is comfortably above BM Naruto with only half of kurama's chakra.


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## blk (May 7, 2019)

After reviewing how Konoha's size was determined for CST's calc, it is clear that its size was massively overestimanted (same for CST's crater height).
Konoha's size is more like 5/10km (not even close to 40, let alone 100) and CST's crater is not even 1km deep from eyeballing it. This should give a CST yield that is roughly in line with bijuudamas and the likes.
Which makes much more sense (even visually kn6 bijuudama obviously wasn't hundreds or thousands of times weaker than CST).

Since PS can tank bijuudamas without even a scratch, and partially tanked the combined explosion of ten or more of them + SS punches, it's also easily going to tank CST.

Therefore Nagato loses (damn it's the third time now that i change idea about this match).


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## kokodeshide (May 7, 2019)

blk said:


> After reviewing how Konoha's size was determined for CST's calc, it is clear that its size was massively overestimanted (same for CST's crater height).
> Konoha's size is more like 5/10km (not even close to 40, let alone 100)


Nooooo. 40K is a fairly conservative estimate.


blk said:


> and CST's crater is not even 1km deep from eyeballing it


 What do you mean eyeballing it? Cause there is no way you could eyeball the height of a wall from the perspective of 10+kilometers away.



blk said:


> Since PS can tank bijuudamas without even a scratch, and partially tanked the combined explosion of ten or more of them + SS punches, it's also easily going to tank CST.


The Bijuudama didnt explode there. there is no evidence of them blowing up there at all. The sword bijuudama just keep going, we dont know where they exploded.


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## Nuttynutdude (May 7, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I believe the shield says it has all the nature types and can shift to cancel out all their attacks. But it says nothing about making it immovable. Thats pure headcanon. And even if it did negate gravity's pull on itself, it doesnt stop the rocks underneath him from being lifted.


Even if it could somehow block gravity (what...?), Nagato has shown pretty consistently his level of overall power is much greater than Itachi's


kokodeshide said:


> f i have to spend time sciencing the hell out of everything i waste time i could use to deal with other points.


Your point could include science but it doesn't always require science. It is about showing evidence that your argument is correct. 

For example, I could use science to show that the chakra ball created by the 5 tailed Kurama cloak is so heavy therefore Naruto must be strong, but we could also use the fact that he nearly killed Jiraiya. Both accomplish the same goal, one uses science the other use scaling


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## Nuttynutdude (May 7, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Based on the fact thaat SM naruto>.50% Kkyuubi and KN6>>>>>SM Naruto. It makes sense. The jinchuriki boost is incredible.


While I would agree that Naruto is stronger than half a percent of the Kyuubi, I'm not sure where you're getting your info that the Jin boost is multiplicative. 


kokodeshide said:


> Hashirama was less nerfed than Madara. He did 1 thing to juubito with a clone. and he didnt do shit to the tree.


He was nerfed more than Madara. They were both weakened by Edo Tensei but Madara also got a small boon from Kabuto


kokodeshide said:


> He beat the PS off of it and left Kyuubi completely unharmed. Nothing hashirama can do can fuck with the kyuubi in terms of power. Kyuubi at half power took a Juubilaser, missing a few tails. SS isnt shit to Kyuubi.


The Kyuubi is a major, MAJOR part of the ten tails, as seen with half of it basically overpowering the entire rest of them. The ten tails that hit the Kyuubi had almost none of the chakra from the Eight and Nine tails, the strongest two.

And if the Kyuubi had no problems at all, there shouldn't have been any problem for Madara. The Kyuubi wasn't just sitting there doing nothing, it was actively attacking Hashirama.


kokodeshide said:


> I dont now how you got this from what I said.


Destructive capability /= attack potency


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## Nuttynutdude (May 7, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Nooooo. 40K is a fairly conservative estimate.


Are you sure, because people walk from one end to the other and the great stone faces, which tower over the village, are nowhere near the size of things like Mt. Rushmore considering we have seen people ON it and the faces are only the sizes of two or three train cars

Just FYI, the Siljan crater, which is about 52 km wide, is considered a probably cause for the Devonian Extinction.

This village is certainly not the size of a mountain range, more likely the size of a single medium sized mountain.

And, if you remember, the air pressure alone from Madara's PS swinging its sword rather casually blew apart a full mountain RANGE
Considering not only did the wall not break, but many fodder shinobi survived without major injuries, this was not even on the level of a smaller meteorite.


kokodeshide said:


> What do you mean eyeballing it? Cause there is no way you could eyeball the height of a wall from the perspective of 10+kilometers away.


There's no way in hell the crater is a kilometre deep. That would mean the city is several dozens of miles in diameter


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## Nuttynutdude (May 7, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> 1) Obito admitted inferiority to Itachi on panel. He literally says it on panel. He watched the fight between Itachi and Sasuke from start to finish using Black Zetsu event recording. He nearly died to Amaterasu after crying out in pain for several moments. Outright said that Itachi would have killed him with full knowledge, that's an admission of inferiority. Itachi one shotted Nagato twice in the canon, nothing more to be said. And Obito didn't even know that Itachi had Koto Amatsukami which would one shot both him and Nagato... Nagato couldn't even Sense Koto when it was used right in front of him. If Itachi wanted either of them dead without a chance of failure, he would have used Koto, but he had other obligations. Inb4 Nagato and Obito are immune to Koto, a technique that can be used without eye contact....


Oh boy where to start

Where exactly does he admit inferiority to Itachi? I remember him saying "Itachi's dead, I am free to attack the village now".
That does not mean he was scared of Itachi. He promised Itachi he'd leave the village alone in payment for Itachi's loyalty. Itachi's stupidly useful, so why would Obito waste that ally when he could wait for Itachi's inevitable demise?

He said he'd be dead if Itachi knew everything about him. How do you think the entire Akatsuki would react if they knew he wasn't who he said he was? How would Nagato react if he'd been lied to this entire time? Obito is strong as fk but he's not taking on Itachi, Nagato, Kisame, and the rest of the Akatsuki alone

He one shot Nagato once with a hax blade after using two perfect jins to help him

Saying Koto will just gg anyone isn't based on anything. We heard it is super dangerous and saw it being used on someone who has less ninjutsu experience than might Guy. Obito was able to hold a perfect Jinchuriki under genjutsu for years and Nagato flat out has superior Dojutsu to Itachi, so saying Koto gg and writing it off isn't a good argument

Obito was winning against much stronger enemies than Itachi was: Itachi was more or less on par with KCM1 Naruto, while Obito was winning against KCM2 Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Guy


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## blk (May 8, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Nooooo. 40K is a fairly conservative estimate.
> 
> What do you mean eyeballing it? Cause there is no way you could eyeball the height of a wall from the perspective of 10+kilometers away.
> 
> The Bijuudama didnt explode there. there is no evidence of them blowing up there at all. The sword bijuudama just keep going, we dont know where they exploded.



It is not conservative, it's extremely generous. In the OBD the accepted diameter is more like between 5 and 10 kilometers (more likely 5 than 10).
One of the arguments uses the forest of death as a comparison (it was stated to have a diameter of 20km in the manga), which is assumed to be the forest on the right of Konoha in the page below, without any strong evidence of it being so (just because it looks similar).
hits and keep fighting

Just by looking at the buildings and their numbers in a straight line (i counted rapidly roughly 90, between the Hokage palace and the walls) you can conclude that it's impossible for the diameter to be anywhere near 40km unless the average length of buildings is something like 500m (which is obviously not realistic and contradicted by many other panels of the insides of Konoha).
There was also an old OBD thread about Konoha's size i found googling, where it's calculated that (based on other panels) Naruto would have to be like 20m tall in order to justify 40km of diameter.

Heck, look at this panel hits and keep fighting. You can clearly see the distance between the walls and the innermost crater, at the center of which (roughly) there are Naruto and Pain... does that seem 20km or so of distance to you?
By eyeballing it, the distance between the walls and the innermost crater is something like 15 times the height of those same walls. Unless those walls are 1km+ tall it's definitely impossible for the distance to be consistent with the 40km diameter.
We can see the height of the walls is surely not even close to 1km+ by looking at the picture already posted above, where they aren't enormously taller than the buildings.

There are obviously many inconsistencies in how Kishimoto draws, but overall Konoha was never portrayed as some kind of huge city or metropolis, but always as a small village/town. And in the panel of chapter 115 it even appears bigger than how it appears in Pain's arc for example (so even i am probably slightly overestimating its size for the purpose of establishing CST's yield).

Anyway PS at least tanked a bijuudama without showing a single scratch, so it is reasonable to assume that its durability is greater than that. Since CST is no where near as powerful as you guys thought it to be, it stands to reason that it will be tanked without much problems.


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## Nuttynutdude (May 9, 2019)

blk said:


> Anyway PS at least tanked a bijuudama without showing a single scratch, so it is reasonable to assume that its durability is greater than that. Since CST is no where near as powerful as you guys thought it to be, it stands to reason that it will be tanked without much problems.


Tanking CT isn't really how its going to go as much as Nagato is going to try to seal Madara away and Madara will do the same thing he did to Gaara's sand mausoleum


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## kokodeshide (May 11, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Are you sure, because people walk from one end to the other and the great stone faces, which tower over the village, are nowhere near the size of things like Mt. Rushmore considering we have seen people ON it and the faces are only the sizes of two or three train cars
> 
> Just FYI, the Siljan crater, which is about 52 km wide, is considered a probably cause for the Devonian Extinction.
> 
> This village is certainly not the size of a mountain range, more likely the size of a single medium sized mountain.


The village sits in a canyon. the Hokage mountain is fairly big, the calc comes from that. and KN6s TBB is mountain sized so it surely is mountain range in size.



Nuttynutdude said:


> And, if you remember, the air pressure alone from Madara's PS swinging its sword rather casually blew apart a full mountain RANGE
> Considering not only did the wall not break, but many fodder shinobi survived without major injuries, this was not even on the level of a smaller meteorite.


it didn't blow apart a mountain range, it cut the tops off some mountains, which is unbelievable weak in comparison to other abilities in the series. 


Nuttynutdude said:


> There's no way in hell the crater is a kilometre deep. That would mean the city is several dozens of miles in diameter


lol, Sakura and company cant even SEE Naruto in the hole. if the crater wasn't deep and long(ha) then she could see him without an issue. 


blk said:


> It is not conservative, it's extremely generous. In the OBD the accepted diameter is more like between 5 and 10 kilometers (more likely 5 than 10).
> One of the arguments uses the forest of death as a comparison (it was stated to have a diameter of 20km in the manga), which is assumed to be the forest on the right of Konoha in the page below, without any strong evidence of it being so (just because it looks similar).
> hits and keep fighting


I put the calc in the OBD already. they didnt see much of an issue and even said they need to recalc Konohas size.
And the 40km calc isnt based on the forest of death. but that forest is extremely similar. only 1 diference between the 2 is a split in a river. But all signs point to that being the forest of death. even the some of the games put the forest of death in that area.


blk said:


> Just by looking at the buildings and their numbers in a straight line (i counted rapidly roughly 90, between the Hokage palace and the walls) you can conclude that it's impossible for the diameter to be anywhere near 40km unless the average length of buildings is something like 500m (which is obviously not realistic and contradicted by many other panels of the insides of Konoha).
> There was also an old OBD thread about Konoha's size i found googling, where it's calculated that (based on other panels) Naruto would have to be like 20m tall in order to justify 40km of diameter.


used in base
used in base
used in base
These and plenty others show small sections of the crater edge and you cant even make out intact buidlings on the edge.
Even in the TBB pic
used in base
used in base
You cant make out any buildings. Some of the edge buidlings were taller than Kyuubi, some were nearly as wide. and we cant make out a single 1.
Fun little side note. in the first TBB pic, you can see the "forest of death" in the corner, it is smaller than the TBB so you could really make KN6 ridiculously powerful hahah.
Any way, I live just outside a major city and I also have plenty of mountain ranges all around me. outside my window i get a perfect view of the city. and im about 11 km away. I can still make out the tops of large trees more than 5 km away and i see plenty of the individual buildings. from sakuras viewpoint, she cant even SEE the wall. nor anything else. And that part of the village isnt crushed in. so she is at a similar elevation and the walls of the crater STILL look massive.



blk said:


> Heck, look at this panel hits and keep fighting. You can clearly see the distance between the walls and the innermost crater, at the center of which (roughly) there are Naruto and Pain... does that seem 20km or so of distance to you?
> By eyeballing it, the distance between the walls and the innermost crater is something like 15 times the height of those same walls. Unless those walls are 1km+ tall it's definitely impossible for the distance to be consistent with the 40km diameter.
> We can see the height of the walls is surely not even close to 1km+ by looking at the picture already posted above, where they aren't enormously taller than the buildings.


What are you looking at. the height of the crater i calced using various bunta and kyuubi numbers mixed with kyuubis height next to the wall. The walls are tall as fuck but the are TINY next to the depth of the crater. as i showed in my calc.
you are looking at close up perspective shots, they are never going to be consistent with the long distance shots.


blk said:


> There are obviously many inconsistencies in how Kishimoto draws, but overall Konoha was never portrayed as some kind of huge city or metropolis, but always as a small village/town. And in the panel of chapter 115 it even appears bigger than how it appears in Pain's arc for example (so even i am probably slightly overestimating its size for the purpose of establishing CST's yield).


Never a small village. Ever. Shit, there are moments where people are like, damn i havent seen you since you were a boy! and its like 10 years later. 
Also, a small village doesnt have 20k chuunin+ soldiers. Cities are still hustling and bustling even though Ninjas leave on mission pretty much daily you cant have a full and packed city with half its residents gone everyday. 

You will have nearly as many Genin as Chunin AT LEAST. and a military is a small part of any population, this is even confirmed in boruto where the talk about going to regular school after ninja school which is what alot of kids do. MOST of them in fact.  and since soldiers die regularly in their world, especially during war, which there was roughly 18 years prior to the story there would HAVE to be numbers of people in the MILLIONS to sustain a soldier population of 40k in a village where the graduation rate is like far less than 50 percent and most kids go on to do other things. I doubt you think the worlds biggest village has a max population size of less than a 100k, thats crazy. 

Remember, Konoha is the biggest village in the world. and looking at something like Japan compared to the fire country. Tokyo is 90 km east to west and 25 km north to south. with like 36 million people. japan as a whole country only has 50k soldiers. So the parallel between them is pretty close. 

EVEN MORE EVIDENCE
used in base
used in base
We know its a straight shot to the hokage mountain from this gate. you cant even see the MASSIVE city above the buildings. The village is massive.



blk said:


> Anyway PS at least tanked a bijuudama without showing a single scratch, so it is reasonable to assume that its durability is greater than that. Since CST is no where near as powerful as you guys thought it to be, it stands to reason that it will be tanked without much problems.


Nope, CST is still FAR stronger than what PS ever tanked. the SS broke it and that is much weaker than the CST.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (May 11, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I put the calc in the OBD already. they didnt see much of an issue and even said they need to recalc Konohas size.
> And the 40km calc isnt based on the forest of death. but that forest is extremely similar. only 1 diference between the 2 is a split in a river. But all signs point to that being the forest of death. even the some of the games put the forest of death in that area.



Is this the thread you are talking about? 
I don't see anyone really agreeing, they are just considering it and LazyWaka (the one who does most of the Naruto calcs if i'm not wrong) wrote, _even if it is calculated more than the old estimates, _it's not gonna be even close to 40km.
They haven't replied to your last post where you ask for confirmation about that calculation.



> HIT if he has to
> HIT if he has to
> HIT if he has to
> These and plenty others show small sections of the crater edge and you cant even make out intact buidlings on the edge.
> ...



Not sure what you are talking about, the buildings were all destroyed so obviously we would only see rubble.
Link removed
As you can see in the bottom left panel all the buildings up to the gates were destroyed.

Sakura can clearly see the walls, literally in the top right panel of the next page Link removed
In the top right panel of the next page Link removed , you can see the walls very clearly.
Bottom panel Link removed
Bottom right panel Link removed
Bottom left Link removed

If that was a 20km or so of distance they would never be able to see them from the center of the crater (especially with the massive amount of rubble of an hypothetical 40km city... there would be literal mountains of rubble).

Also you haven't refuted my points, buildings would have to be enormous (like 500m wide as an avegare) for a diameter of 40km to be true. Obviously that's completely unrealistic and contradicted by other panels (that show the buildings are not that huge).
Also the fact that calculation about Naruto being 20m tall, tho i can't find it.

The inconsistencies are clear.



> What are you looking at. the height of the crater i calced using various bunta and kyuubi numbers mixed with kyuubis height next to the wall. The walls are tall as fuck but the are TINY next to the depth of the crater. as i showed in my calc.
> you are looking at close up perspective shots, they are never going to be consistent with the long distance shots.



You can see how the walls compare to the crater in this panel Link removed
They are big, but not big enough to justify a distance of 20km or so between them and the innermost crater (which you can see in that panel). They are probably 200 meters tall or something like that.



> Never a small village. Ever. Shit, there are moments where people are like, damn i havent seen you since you were a boy! and its like 10 years later.
> Also, a small village doesnt have 20k chuunin+ soldiers. Cities are still hustling and bustling even though Ninjas leave on mission pretty much daily you cant have a full and packed city with half its residents gone everyday.
> 
> You will have nearly as many Genin as Chunin AT LEAST. and a military is a small part of any population, this is even confirmed in boruto where the talk about going to regular school after ninja school which is what alot of kids do. MOST of them in fact.  and since soldiers die regularly in their world, especially during war, which there was roughly 18 years prior to the story there would HAVE to be numbers of people in the MILLIONS to sustain a soldier population of 40k in a village where the graduation rate is like far less than 50 percent and most kids go on to do other things. I doubt you think the worlds biggest village has a max population size of less than a 100k, thats crazy.
> ...



Yeah there are people i haven't seen in a decade even in my small town (still bigger than Konoha tho).

These are mostly baseless claims. We don't know if there are shinobi living in other parts of the country, we don't know what's Konoha's population and what's the percentage that is a shinobi (note that many of them work normal jobs most of the time). We don't know what's the percentage of them that do missions on the regular. Etc.
This whole indirect argument about population is completely baseless and based on incredulity, and doesn't even concern the _direct _counter arguments i've presented.

The scan you posted are of Boruto, and anyway obviously you are not gonna see anything if there buildings blocking your sight.



> Nope, CST is still FAR stronger than what PS ever tanked. the SS broke it and that is much weaker than the CST.



How do you know SS punches are weaker than CST? The energy was taken mostly by PS, since they are punches all their power is concentrated on them, therefore obviously they wouldn't produce a crater that you could compare to that of CST.
Surely they need to pack much more power than a full Kyuubi bijuudama, which should also be much stronger than KN6's bijuudama that according to your calculation is extremely powerful.

The bottom line is that all these calculations are based on contradictory evidence and therefore are not credible.


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## kokodeshide (May 11, 2019)

Sorry this took so long, was really sick.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Obito legit tells Nagato at one point that failure to capture Naruto would not be tolerated.... and Pain didn't say anything back lol. Obito is portrayed above Nagato in that regard.


No, Obito said, as LEADER, failure isnt tolerated. not the same thing. Pain also ordered 2 different excersions to Konoha, Obito didnt say shit despite him not being allowed to attack Konoha. That either puts Itachi below Pain, or Obito below pain. or both, which is the truth,


ThirdRidoku said:


> Lol wut? Dude, during the night of the Uchiha Massacre Obito agreed to not ever touch Konoha or Sasuke, and he is the one who gives Nagato orders. Nagato has a large degree of autonomy yes, but he can't take any actions that Obito doesn't approve of.


That isn't true at all, as I said, Nagato ordered missions to Konoha. Both would have led to massive deaths if it wasn't for the fact that Kakuzu and Hidan were stopped before they reached the village and Itachi volunteered for the first mission.
And Nagato doesn't give 2 fucks about what Obito wants, he even straight up explains a plan that is 100 percent NOT Infinite Tsukuyomi.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato sent Itachi and Kisame to Konoha to capture naruto because the village was weakened, and because Itachi obviously knows how to enter the village stealthily. The mission was to capture naruto, not destroy konoha, that's an important distinction you are missing. And Itachi intentionally failed that mission, even Kisame was skeptical of the retreat.


Wrong. Itachi Volunteered! If he didn't take that moment, another team would have gone and fucked the village senseless. Only Itachi could have escaped that situation harmlessly, every other Akatsuki member group is massively destructive.



ThirdRidoku said:


> The point is, neither Obito or Nagato can destroy the village while Itachi is in the organization, Obito himself made that clear and he intentionally waited for Itachi to die/be near death to begin making his moves.... Without Itachi, Obito would have just sent Nagato himself to take vengeance on Konoha back in part one. Pain and Konan would capture 12 year old Naruto and flatten konoha without any issues. Itachi stopped that because only he gets to go to Konoha and as such he can fight the Konoha ninjas at the village on his own terms.


They had no need for Naruto, they couldnt seal kyuubi back in part one, or early part 2. Itachi literally wasted his time trying to capture Naruto. they would have had to hold onto him for 3 fuckin years before they could even seal him.


ThirdRidoku said:


> After Itachi died, Pain went to the village. Even after he got information on where naruto was, he didn't have to destroy the village. But he wanted to because that was his justice dude... he literally gave you an entire speech on why he did it. That justice came 16 years late because his boss wasn't allowed to give him the green light. And Obito was clearly not entirely happy that he had to wait that long either, which means what Itachi gave him in return was not ideal. In the end, it was Konoha that did the bulk of the effort in the fourth ninja War too. Itachi's Kotoamatsukami plan would have put EMS Sasuke on Naruto's side too. Itachi literally saved the world while trying to complete conflicting objectives.


What. Pain fucked up a great part of the village. im sure itachi wouldn't be like i guess thats ok, pain. just because he didnt flatten the village doesnt mean he wasnt going against Itachis deal. If itachi was alive and Kyuubi was the last one, Pain would have went and captured him, like he sent Kakuzu to do. They wouldnt just sit around and wait for Itachi to die. If Pain knew of the deal, it would make Obito look weak, why does Obito need to deal make with Itachi? Why is Pain "taking orders" from a guy so weak he needs Itachis help to take out the Uchiha? and needs kyuubis help to fail in beating the village when he could walk in and casually solo a stronger version of the SAME VILLAGE, while at a disadvantage, using his weaker form. Nagato is on another level. and Itachi knows that, Nagato knows that, Naruto knew that, Bee knew that. Kakashi even knew that.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Obito approved of Nagato's desire to send Kisame and Nagato to capture the nine tails in part One because he knew the real reason why Itachi was in the organization, UNLIKE NAGATO. From Nagato's perspective, Itachi and Kisame simply failed. From Obito's perspective, Itachi was there to see to Sasuke safety and to warn Konoha of the threat the Akatsuki presented.....


Nagato doesn't sit around and ask Obito for permission. He simply accomplishes the goal they agreed on. and does that on his own. If Pain sent ANY other group it would have been chaos. and it doesnt make sense for Obito to approve of Itachi going to the village as that could severly fuck up his plans, which in reality it did.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato never sent anyone to the village for 3 years after that. And then Kakazu and Hidan were only going to Konoha to pursue the Jinchuriki and their bounty, not to destroy the village. There is a difference.


And once IN the village and the fight happens then what? no one does a thing? They would have to fuck up many people in the process. And that was Kishimotos intention until his editor forced him to kill off Kakuzu and hidan.


ThirdRidoku said:


> The shield has ALL nature types dude.


Yes, i never said it didn't "dude."



ThirdRidoku said:


> Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin ( and by extension Chibaku Tensei) is a shift in space/time caused by the possession of all 5 elements according to Databook. The shield isn't limited to just the 5 elements either. It has ALL nature types, and combined nature transformations like wood release are confirmed to be under that umbrella. And the shield is explicitly stated to be able to deflect any kind of attack. This is an unacceptable denial of the canon.


 To say the yata mirro and use it nature types to counter all the natures is 1 thing, to say it can counter a 5 natures combo at once is another. We have no idea how the yata mirror works. and you saying it is unbeatable goes against Itachis very own words, everything has a weakness. Even A3's invincible body had a weakness.

And unacceptable denial of canon would be to ignore that fact that sealing jutsu negs EVERYTHING. The phantom dragon seals itachi with his shield away without effort. Sealing jutsu was also able to extinguish the unextinguishable Amaterasu. Sealing jutsu>everything.
And you are using a NLF to say Itachi could survive any attack. Could the Yata mirror survive a combo attack from Juubi jinchuriki Hagoromo, Hokage Naruto, TCM Toneri, Momoshiki and Kaguya all at once? If you believe that then you dont care about logic.



ThirdRidoku said:


> The shield can become immovable if it wants because it can change any of its properties, nowhere is it stated to be limited to changing its elements.


Nowhere is it stated the Yata Mirror CAN'T produce meaty ball park franks at a drop of a hat. So it can. THAT is the logic you are using. A shield that is unbreakable is not immovable, that doesnt even make sense. You are applying fanfiction to that.


ThirdRidoku said:


> In fact, in the manga, it has never used the elemental change property. In the manga, it changed in size and shape multiple times in response to the attacks it received


Yes, and NONE of those are in connection to it being immovable. Simply moving isnt damage. You are implying that The mirror will defend Itachi from the act of Moving simply because in the future that movement leads to damage. That is a reach across the galaxy, bruv. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> Even if the rocks underneath Itachi are initially lifted The Yata mirror would stop them from harming him or his Susano'o, there is no way around this.


what? If he is lifted and brought into the CT, he is dying, the rocks wont touch him, I agree, but he is stuck and cant do a damn thing about it. he will then die after his susano inevitably drops.



ThirdRidoku said:


> The headcanon is on your end. Black Zetsu has seen Chibaku Tensei and he declared the YM invincible. Kishimoto reinforced the claim with the Databook description that the shield changes its properties, which we SAW happen on panel, please stop ignoring this. Itachi has the YM to deal with it, period.


Guess what, Sealing something invincible/immortal/neverending/unextiguishable has been done. Saying you are invincible doesnt mean you cant be sealed.
And im not ignoring shit. please stop making shit up.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Wrong. Chakra sensing happens on a basic level and is *passive*. Kakashi and Zabuza both passively sensed Naruto's kyuubi chakra and kakashi even idenitified it correctly. Another compendium of scans I have posted to you in the past that you also continue to ignore, go figure. Nagato can absolutely sense a giant chakra monster with his passive chakra sensing. Like I said, people who are NOT SENSOR TYPES have *sensed large chakras from MILES away*. Even Itachi could sense the chakra of Orochimaru's Hydra despite being completely blind in BOTH of his eyes. This is more headcanon from you.


This is so fuckin stupid, im sorry, but please, spare me your unquantifiable trash theory on chakra sensing. It is inconsistent and typically only works in the cases of dense evil masses of chakra. but sometimes doesnt. so you cannot use that in this instance to reinforce your point, it is complete and utter nonsense. And itachi wasnt blind there at all. He could still see sasuke and see him well enough to direct a finger tap on his forehead. chakra sensing doesnt give him location details of his fuckin body parts. and you dare say im using headcanon. 


ThirdRidoku said:


> And don't make things up please. Nagato in the past, ironically after the destruction of his chibaku tensei in the Pain ARC, stood and watched Naruto drop smoke bombs and stood there and waited for the rasenshurikens to come out. He was even anticipating said Rasensurikens ahead of time yet he stood there in the same spot and waited for them to emerge from the smoke instead of just using Shinra Tensei immediately to clear the smoke. He wasted shinra Tensei on the first rasenshuriken, and if Naruto's second rasenshuriken expanded it like it did before then Pain wouldn't have been able to dodge.


Oh you mean the same Pain who had JUST ATTEMPTED TO RUSH SAGE NARUTO AND GOT WTFPWNED. Yeah, real smart to rush in again. Way to take a scene out of context. THIS is a ridiculous point and you are capable of better.

Think about it again, Nagato was JUST rushing them endlessly. ST, attacks bee, steals chakra, blasts Bee away, grabs Naruto's soul, constant rush. then suddenly stops. and only then, after several stupid moves, does itachi kill him, when he isn't moving, after Itachi was saved via group effort.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Plus , chakra sensing even in sensory mode generally isn't a substitute for seeing the attack with your eyes, and Nagato was watching the blade as it came out of the smoke.
> It's his* fighting style *to stand his ground and counter attacks as they come out of smoke. His plan was obvious, react to Naruto/Bee/Itachi's attack as it comes out of the smoke. The problem was he made that mistake against an attack that was too fast for him to mentally react to, i/e Totsuka. And I like how Nagato's IQ just suddenly dropped to zero when it's convenient for your argument? His CBT was just destroyed and there is a big ass smokescreen. How much common sense does it take to tell that your enemies are hiding in the smoke?????


You really think Kabuto is thinking that Itachi is hiding in the smoke with a GIANT FUCKIN SWORD THAT ONESHOTS??? Really? Why is Kabuto suddenly a genius when it's conveniet to your arguement? If he though Itachi had that kind of weapon, he would have separated himself and either flew or jumped up for CST. It makes not sense to just sit there, ESPECIALLY after launching a full blown offensive ass whooping. None of it makes any sense at all and you want to pretend it makes perfect sense so Itachi is boosted, i get why you are doing it, but its still fuckin ridiculous.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Totsuka is an insta-game over once it lands. Kabuto lost control over Nagato and couldn't do anything about it. Orochimaru started melting away after he was hit and could do nothing. The manga and databook show this. You didn't prove anything, you just made a false claim that Orochimaru substituted out, and we both know that didn't happen. unreal man. This is why I think your biased... You ignore the fact that Edo Nagato and Orochimaru are both immortal.... alive Nagato would immediately die from being stabbed by that blade and would bleed out, he isn't activating any technique after being stabbed by it man, and we know the blade can kill like a normal blade because it decapitated all the hydra snakes and killed them.


So you ignore Orochimaru splitting a snake off. Got it. Canon denial. Kunshina was stabbed through he body in a way worse way and was peachy, after being dead from losing a bijuu AND giving birth. Nagato, a FAR superior Uzumaki fresh from daining a full V2 Jin who can make his body mechanical to the point he can survive in pieces, has absolutely 0 issues with a sword to the chest. literally all he needs is a little chakra. Or step into hell realm and fix himself right up.

And look, you are saying im bias because im saying EDO NAGATO SURVIVES A  KNIFE THROUGH THE CHEST. How the fuck is that biased? please tell me. Are edos fucked killable all of a sudden? since when? This is an example of you building an enemy when THERE ISNT ONE. You are painting me in a negative light to make yourself feel better.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Orochimaru =/= his snakes, as seen when the snakes died to Amaterasu. Orochimaru wouldn't have died to amaterasu. There is a reason why he couldn't be brought back without Sasuke's and Kabuto's help after he was sealed into the gourd.


Are you seriously saying that because oros snake separation is not him becauseit died to Amaterasu? are you serious? Orochimaru can survive in a fuckin curse seal yet he can split a piece of himself off of his body? Canon denial at its FINEST.



ThirdRidoku said:


> Okay, progress here, finally..... But it doesn't matter. Nagato was aware of Itachi's presence the moment his sentry posts were blinded.... Itachi came from the side with a giant ass hand. Nagato can see that and react accordingly. Even the animators for the anime reasoned that much because in the anime Nagato turns his head when Itachi places the hand down. If you know a threat is coming but you don't know where from, then the first instinct is looking around, but Nagato couldn't react because Itachi was too fast. We know Itachi started from very far away because you can see it from the trajectory of the kunai... he threw them from deep into the forest. How much time do you think elapsed between the kunais hitting the eyes of the summon and then Itachi appearing?


Anime isnt canon. Nagato doesnt even know he was hit till AFTER he was hit. Meaning the Kunai landed and nearly the same time. All it means is Itachi is faster than Bee, which we already know. Its all about perfect timing. and again, this is Kabuto, not Nagato reacting, we have no clue if Kabuto is even able to handle multiple targets at once. He even forgot Itachi was even there. Kabuto was the most incompetent person in the whole series in the body of Nagato and you are acting like this is prime nagato with full capabilities.
Its literally like if Sasuke beats edo Itachi when Kabuto is controlling him but Kabuto forgets Itachi can see chakra with the sharingan, cant summon susano like Nagato couldnt summon the Mazo. but still used Amaterasu and basic genjutsu. But uses tsukuyomi not for 3 days, but 3 minutes. Like Kabuto using CT so low to the ground unlike how pain used it like 100 km up in the air against Naruto. Then people parade around saying Sasuke>Itachi without aknowledging the fuckin nerfs Kabuto gave him.


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## kokodeshide (May 11, 2019)

Sorry for the doouble, soon to be triple post, couldnt fit it all in one post.


ThirdRidoku said:


> I am being fair. Itachi wasn't in danger but his allies were literally seconds away from dying.
> Kakashi was also told about the shared vision ahead of time by Pa and he still got duped by it mid battle. Naruto did well against the shared vision but at his best he is literally Itachi 2.0 when it comes to tactics so it's not surprsing, and even he had prior intel.


I'm not saying Itachi is equal to jiraiya because of that, im simply saying the situation was different.



ThirdRidoku said:


> How about the final antagonist who manipulated Obito calling Itachi invincible???? Lets see you top that.


Kaguya never said that sooooo yeah.

and Black zetsu was one of the weakest Akatsuki members, I value Obitos words on power over his. You dont really think that Black zetsu would have delayed Kaguyas revial simply because Itachi was alive, do you? Are you saying Kaguya loses to Itachi? If not, your invincible BS is fuckin irrelevant FLUFF.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Bro, a debate is a form of discourse wherein you evaluate facts, make a claim, and use facts to support said claim. Being clear is important, but being concise is highly situational. I'm sorry you feel that it's wasting time but I was under the impression that you have plenty of time and interest.


Well considering i dont have much life left in me i dont have alot of time, but i do have alot of interest. Debate is the best thing in the world to me and you break the rules so fuckin badly it literally hurts sometimes. I have debated on crazy stages for half my life. What you describe is not a debate at all. its more like parenting. If you followed the rules of debate i never would have had to science the shit out of your point just to prove you wrong cause your point wasnt valid in the first place.


ThirdRidoku said:


> I don't think it's a ridiculous standard at all... it just shows the limitation of the debating. Because it's about proving your claim with the current knowledge available to another human being(s) is the problem.


No, debate is limited in your method of debate. In a REAL debate your issue is easily solved. a rock is a rock unless proved otherwise. you cant say, "well you cant prove that it is a different kind of life". that isnt a fuckin point. I dont have to then science the fuck out of that to disprove it. lack of disproof is not proof on your part.
If i claim CST>SS, that is because, with what we see, and all the information we have, CST has more energy output, UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. That is how it works. you cant say that simply because its full length is unknown  that i cant say it is weaker. Yes, yes i can, cause from what WE CAN SEE, it is not as powerful. You could pretend the valley snakes allllll the way through the earth for 200k miles all day, until YOU can PROVE the length, we can ONLY go with what we see.
Just like how if i have a video showing you at a bar at 630 i can say you were there. you cant use a defense like well show me a video of me at my house, if you cant, you cant say i wasnt actually at my house at 630. I dont fuckin need to, i have other sufficient evidence.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Yeah but STRENGTH also matters..... Kurama is a large object with large surface area
> but his physical strength overcame the gravitional pull and the fricion and the mass of the rocks it was fighting against.... Hashirama's SS literally could run with a giant 1000 armed kanon its back, it has incredible strength. It detached said kanon after all the arms were expelled presumably to boost mobility, and it easily rag dolled Kurama in place, Kurama could do nothing to escape the grip, and Kurama is one of the strongest entities in the series. Chibaku Tensei isn't ripping apart SS, it would just lift it up just like everything else.


You can run on sand with a man on your back. If i bury you in sand you arent moving an inch. now let me bury you in 50 miles of sand. The force exerted by CT is so fuckin tremendous that unless you are small and or near the surface like Naruto was, you will never escape.

And CT was ripping apart mountains. The SS is taller than some mountains, why is the wood not getting ripped apart? that makes no sense at all.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Your arguments still do not stand up to the rest of the scrutiny I am presenting. You won one battle , and The battle you won, was pretty decisive but that was only on one front bud. The war is still raging.


Just remember, all the shit you talked about that one battle. and you lost that, dont make the same mistake with these other battles.


ThirdRidoku said:


> Nagato's CST crater is bigger than Hashirama's and as such more total energy was released. I can no longer dispute that, but there is a lot more going on than just that. First of all, you have not at all adequately addressed the meteor argument. You say that Ohnoki and Gaara survived it as a means to undermine the feat. However, there is obviously a lot more going on then you admit. First of all, the meteor was pulled from outer space and it was clearly suffering from ablation, and because it's so large it would have retained most of it's cosmic velocity as it burned through the upper atmosphere. The attack literally caused an earthquake that was felt countries away.... which you keep ignoring. Madara literally stated from the get go that this was a suicide technique, and this is the same guy that has PS to shield himself. meaning PS's durability can't stand up to the kinetic energy of a meteor that large and that fast. Madara's body and the Susano'o variant he had up were completely destroyed. So why should I take Ohnoki surviving it seriously? Madara's Susano'o in its weakest form only took a crack from Odama Rasengan, and only took a crack from Tsunade in her strongest form, yet meteors which can apparently destroy Madara's PS can't obliterate Ohnoki? I


This is the problem here, it makes no sense that that meteor moving at reentry speeds wouldnt hit at a continent level. It makes no sense that Oonoki and Gaara plus Dodai could live through that. BUT, when you consider that the rock wasnt flaming, which it would be if it was moving at reentry speeds, it wasnt hot, which it would be if it was moving at reentry speeds.

Here fuck it, you want more science shit?
2 MAJOR reasons madaras meteor is moving at hypersonic speeds.
1. When a meteor hits the ground it creates a circular crater, NO MATTER THE ANGLE, you might think that is weird. if it came in sideways it should make an angled crater, but no, every single crater on earth and the moon is a circle, why? Because, when moving at such a high rate of speed, upon impact, the bonds between atoms literally break from the sheer kinetic energy that the meteor explodes in the ground causing an explosion and therefor a circular crater. Why does this disprove Madaras meteor being massively hypersonic? Because when one metear hits the other, it literally only splits it in half. It doesnt explode at all. Meaning, it wasnt moving very fast at all.
2. The fuckin speed. Its generally accepted that space begins at around 100km up. A meteor falling at true reentry speeds would like i said, be burning, and also travel that 100 km in FOUR SECONDS. from where it hits the clouds, assuming they are at the max height of nimbus clouds, 12km, it would take only half a second to hit the ground. Unless you assume ever single little action they did happened withing that  half second, the meteor is slow. There are several conversations, actions, reactions further actions that happened. Not under half a second. and from the point Oonoki actually reached the meteor, from that distance it would have hit the earth in .04 seconds. these are for the slower meteors too. not even a fast meteor which it would have had to of been considering you all think he pulled it from space.

conclusion, the meteor was moving at far less then reentry speeds, far less than hypersonic, likely only supersonic IF THAT. If it was a real meteor, it would have cratered that WHOLE AREA. shit, there were still towers of rock standing just fine after the impact. it barely did any damage. and FYI, if a real meteor that size hit, even if EVEREST was your rock shield, you and the mountain are vaporized in almost an instant.



ThirdRidoku said:


> So Ohnoki can survive a punch from Tsunade? I think not. The meteor logically is moving at hypersonic speeds which is why it has been calc'd at country level,


this is why you are biased. Onoki, gaaras and everyone survived just because reasons but the meteor is still above Tsunades punch which is can kill Madara. So you have to believe kishimoto just fucked up that like 10 ninja survive the meteor and no other damage was done to the rock structures nearby yet its country level! HAHAHAHA. The meteor is NOT logically moving at those speeds as i have explained. Basic, 3rd grad astronomy would tell you that meteor was moving at hyper sonic speeds. So when you say it "logically" is hypersonic i now have to question all your logic as this is one of the very first thing you know about meteors. vapor trail. impact explosions. NONE of which are present in this event.
So what makes more sense, the meteor breaks all lawas of physics and Onoki can tank a country level attack but still die to sub country level attacks of tsunade. ORRR. The meteor isnt fast and onoki survived an attack that isn't country level and tsunade can still kill him. which makes more sense to you?



ThirdRidoku said:


> Tsunade surviving CST can't be scrutinized in the same way because CST's power was established at the same time Tsunade survived it, and has never been used again.
> 
> Furthermore, if Tsunade survived it then Hashirama sure as hell is surviving CST, which is why it's a moot point. Same for Madara. And using CST is literally a huge opportunity cost for Nagato. It turns off his Deva Path for a while.


except tsunade wasnt not in the center and you have NO idea where she WAS so you cannot say she took the attack head on. I completely accept Hashirama tanking the attack if he is 20 kms away from the center, sure. and Madara was killed by a sword so CST can surely kill him. He himself has tanked NOTHING of note.



ThirdRidoku said:


> How???? Naruto lifted Kyuubi up yes which is a feat of lifting strength but we have never seen him grapple down Kyuubi the way Hashirama did. Naruto is still significantly less massive than Kurama. His first rasengam got deflected away.... except for when he did the 20+ ones and even then it wasn't anywhere near enough, not even rasenshuriken did the job. Naruto had help from Bee and his mom and even then he barely made it, he extracted the chakra just before Kurama was ready to initiate another offensive.
> 
> In no world is SM Naruto stronger than half of kyuubi... Base naruto has x4 the chakra of Kakashi. Even if we assume that SM is a x 2 boost.... he still doesn't get up to x100 the strength of kakashi, which the full power of the HALF of Kyuubi would provide him according to Kakashi.


SM Naruto was handling Kyuubi. Kyuubi could do nothing to him. And Bee helped Naruto BEFORE he was in SM. And Kushina helped AFTER Naruto already won the little scuffle. Kyuubi was helpless compared to SM Naruto, what do you think KN6 will do? KN6 was shown to be wayyyyyyyy more powerful than SM Naruto.
You think SM is just a 2 x boost????HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Naruto tossed boss summon sized rhino MILES into the air. you think base naruto could even LIFT the TAIL of that fuckin rhino? HAHAHA. They do no equate. they are NOT the same.


ThirdRidoku said:


> KCM Naruto was taking chakra from Kurama but Kurama was also taking chakra from him. KCM2 Naruto got Kurama's full cooperation so now their chakra reserves are one. That is why he became a Perfect Jinchuriki Like Bee. So all you have done here is prove that there shouldn't be any difference from kn8 Naruto and KCM2 Naruto. and if we cut kurama's chakra in half, the equation is still in balance. And SM Hashi is comfortably above BM Naruto with only half of kurama's chakra.


You are dead wrong bro. Just because Kurama is GIVING him free use of his chakra, DOES NOT mean he is attaching his dark will with it. It is not the same thing. Stop pretending it is. Kuramas will didn't suddenly have no effect on Naruto, that doesn't make sense at all. He only gave pure chakra, no will attached or else he would have gone V2. KCM is equivilent to V1, KN8-9 is V2, where it is 100 percent of the yang Kurama, will and chakra. KCM has no will attached to it at all. Cooperation only means Naruto has a never ending source and Kyuubi to gather chakra for him.


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## Shazam (May 11, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Sorry for the doouble, soon to be triple post, couldnt fit it all in one post.
> I'm not saying Itachi is equal to jiraiya because of that, im simply saying the situation was different.
> 
> 
> ...




Full Power Nagato has a chance against Kyuubi-less Madara, but I don't see how he is dealing with PS considering its sword slash (which is a lot easier to get to) is mountain+ ranges and its much more spammable


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## kokodeshide (May 11, 2019)

blk said:


> Is this the thread you are talking about?
> I don't see anyone really agreeing, they are just considering it and LazyWaka (the one who does most of the Naruto calcs if i'm not wrong) wrote, _even if it is calculated more than the old estimates, _it's not gonna be even close to 40km.
> They haven't replied to your last post where you ask for confirmation about that calculation.


Firstly, there is 3 comments saying the village could be that big. And waka, who I've seen calc shit since before he changed his name andi also have contributed to plenty blog calcs that are gone now, only says it wouldnt be close to 40km based on his guess. that is a FAR cry from debunking the calc. especially with 3 additional yays. Thats weak IMO. 

Everything in my calc is solid. Konoha has a giant mountain which drwarfs Gamabunta and Kyuubi who are smaller than the fuckin Hokage mansion which is literally a DOT next to the Hokage mountain. It the pic of the TBB in Konoha, Kyuubi wouldnt even be VISIBLE. So how could you say that the village isnt way bigger than 7 km? Gamabunta and kyuubi are over 100m tall, barring a few images, just that alone makes the village enormous. since they arent even bigger than a big building in Konoha.



blk said:


> Not sure what you are talking about, the buildings were all destroyed so obviously we would only see rubble.
> Link removed
> As you can see in the bottom left panel all the buildings up to the gates were destroyed.


They were not completely destroyed, there are still massive chunks of buildngs and even where Sakura is there are still buildings standing.



blk said:


> Sakura can clearly see the walls, literally in the top right panel of the next page Link removed
> In the top right panel of the next page Link removed , you can see the walls very clearly.
> Bottom panel Link removed
> Bottom right panel Link removed
> Bottom left Link removed


I already explained this. Those are narrow perspective shots. how else would the wall size go from like several inches on paper to not even visible. Its the same reason why Kyuubi looked so big in the village despite minato being on the other side of the village while we know Kyuubi is no bigger than the Hokage building. Its a perspective shot. All the narrow shots are consistent and all the wide shots but ONE are consistent. 



blk said:


> If that was a 20km or so of distance they would never be able to see them from the center of the crater (especially with the massive amount of rubble of an hypothetical 40km city... there would be literal mountains of rubble).


exactly, hence why in the wide shots you never see them, or BARELY see them. You cant judge a close up shot to the wide angle ones.


blk said:


> Also you haven't refuted my points, buildings would have to be enormous (like 500m wide as an avegare) for a diameter of 40km to be true. Obviously that's completely unrealistic and contradicted by other panels (that show the buildings are not that huge).
> Also the fact that calculation about Naruto being 20m tall, tho i can't find it.
> 
> The inconsistencies are clear.


Well to be fair, it isnt really a point as you havent shown me anything to refute lol.
The inconsistencies are few and far in between. All the close up shots show the wall, all the long shots dont. only 1 issue is that weird angle that doesnt fit with ANY other immage of Konoha. period. it is so far away from any image of konoha you could make konoha be like 2000m with it. but here is the thing, 1 image doesnt debunk 10 others in a human drawn manga. You go with the majority, not the one example that disproves it.


blk said:


> You can see how the walls compare to the crater in this panel Link removed
> They are big, but not big enough to justify a distance of 20km or so between them and the innermost crater (which you can see in that panel). They are probably 200 meters tall or something like that.


This is that wonky image. There are 10 images that debunk that one. if we play 1 for 1 im winning all day. And where inconsistencies are expected, 1 doesnt debunk 10.

and 200 meters tall is ridiculous. kyuubi has been calced at like 400 meters tall. even Waka calced gyuuki at over 1 or 200 meters. but Bunta, who is nearly the same size as FULL kyuubi is a SPECK inside the crater and FAR under its rim.


blk said:


> Yeah there are people i haven't seen in a decade even in my small town (still bigger than Konoha tho).


When they are children of your friends, that may be a bit weird.


blk said:


> These are mostly baseless claims. We don't know if there are shinobi living in other parts of the country


No, this is a baseless attampt to refute my point. we have no reason to believe there are ninja who live OUTSIDE the ninja village(not including small border villages). especially when they all have to report to one building to get their missions.


blk said:


> we don't know what's Konoha's population and what's the percentage that is a shinobi (note that many of them work normal jobs most of the time). We don't know what's the percentage of them that do missions on the regular. Etc.


They dont work normal jobs. Inos family own a flow shop, outside of that Ten Ten is pretty much the only other one to work a regular job. Ninja go out on missions all the time. To the point no other jonin were able to teach naruto so ebisu had to step in. and after Oros attack they sent out every ninja they had on missions to appear that they had NOT lost power. meaning thats typical for them. not at all times of the day, but thats how a ninja makes money, missions, no missions, no money. They have breaks of course but to assume kakashi is a barista at the Kaleidoscope Cafe in the afternoon is a bit weird.



blk said:


> This whole indirect argument about population is completely baseless and based on incredulity, and doesn't even concern the _direct _counter arguments i've presented.
> 
> The scan you posted are of Boruto, and anyway obviously you are not gonna see anything if there buildings blocking your sight.


It isnt baseless at all, it has FAR more base then simply saying, "i eyeballed it and nahhhh, cant be!" How is that a direct counter argument?

lol those scans are from the last chapter of NARUTO, not Boruto. if the skyscrapers are on a mountain that dwarfs the tiny city, you could CLEARLY see them from that point.



blk said:


> How do you know SS punches are weaker than CST? The energy was taken mostly by PS, since they are punches all their power is concentrated on them, therefore obviously they wouldn't produce a crater that you could compare to that of CST.
> Surely they need to pack much more power than a full Kyuubi bijuudama, which should also be much stronger than KN6's bijuudama that according to your calculation is extremely powerful.
> 
> The bottom line is that all these calculations are based on contradictory evidence and therefore are not credible.


getting hit into the ground would cause damage and the damage was evident by a valley that is miles long. its not like the force disappeared. and as i have said to others before, if only 1 punch hit the ground and all the others hit PS or were destroyed, it STILL would pale in comparison to CST. CST is literally over 1000 times the yield of SS best calc.
Except for the calc that pretends that the VotE is 5 times the diameter of the sun or the ACTUAL USED CALC of Kuramas basic TBB being over 500km in diameter making the surrounding mountains 200+ km tall. Please. 

The real bottom line is, there are 2 ways to judge SS's DC. Calc stacking, or damage caused. 
With calc stacking you get SS being above Kuramas basic TBB, which is under CST, so an unquantifiable number. or, you calc the destruction caused and get a number pitifully below CST, nearly 1000 times lower. even lower than the 7km CST calc is above it.


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## kokodeshide (May 11, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Full Power Nagato has a chance against Kyuubi-less Madara, but I don't see how he is dealing with PS considering its sword slash (which is a lot easier to get to) is mountain+ ranges and its much more spammable


thank you so much for posting, i would have hated to triple post lol

Anyway.
Kyuubi and/PS is negged by the Mazo and rods. People forget that Nagato had the Mazo with 7 bijuu in it. That thing was strong as fuck. and so durable that raikiri chain didnt even scratch him despite it cutting through V2 cloaks with easy. Nor did any other attack except kamui which negs defense.

Susanos slashes are not that dangerous, not only would they be ineffective against preta, but even at a distance they can still be blocked with ST and avoided with any number of summons. 
Madara has absolutely no answer for the phantom dragon. Its literally a perfect form of the wood dragon which pretty much fucks him over on contact. And with Cerberus and the Chameleon, even if Nagato had to abandon the Mazo while it held Kyuubi, He still has the option of hiding and letting cerberus grow more and more and more and more as Madara cuts him up. he has no answer for him. And at the end of the day CST blows him to hell.


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## Nuttynutdude (May 11, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> it didn't blow apart a mountain range, it cut the tops off some mountains, which is unbelievable weak in comparison to other abilities in the series.


I don't think you realize what that is doing to those mountains... It took off the top 1/3 and threw them into the air. That amount of energy could easily destroy a village... especially considering, for the eleven millionth time, this is the air pressure coming from the sword moving, meaning the sword strike itself is far, far more powerful


kokodeshide said:


> lol, Sakura and company cant even SEE Naruto in the hole. if the crater wasn't deep and long(ha) then she could see him without an issue.


I'd like you to go to a football field and look for a AA Battery standing on a ladder. Assuming Konoha is only 1 mile in diameter, that is the scale of Naruto vs Konoha. Can you even imagine something over 6 times that size?


kokodeshide said:


> No, Obito said, as LEADER, failure isnt tolerated. not the same thing. Pain also ordered 2 different excersions to Konoha, Obito didnt say shit despite him not being allowed to attack Konoha. That either puts Itachi below Pain, or Obito below pain. or both, which is the truth,


Itachi is below pain, there aren't a whole lot of feats to claim otherwise except for Itachi somehow outsmarting him.

Obito being below Pain is debatable. Yellow mask Obito, a 16 year old pressured Minato into thinking it couldn't possibly be anyone else but Madara even though there were shinobi like Orochimaru, Fugaku, Danzo, and the seven swordsmen running around. 
Orange Mask Obito has to be, by simple logic, much, much, MUCH stronger than his 16 year old self. This would mean that, assuming we give the hardest time, that he can challenge Minato, someone who was considered stronger than Hiruzen, who was stronger than A4, Rasa, Yagura, or Onoki. 

White Mask Obito is without a doubt stronger than Nagato, since he was able to fight more opponents, all of whom were stronger than what Nagato faced, and he was winning whereas Nagato got beaten pretty badly as soon as Itachi turned on him. Plus Obito was holding back in that fight due to not wanting to exhaust his chakra early


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## kokodeshide (May 11, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> I don't think you realize what that is doing to those mountains... It took off the top 1/3 and threw them into the air. That amount of energy could easily destroy a village... especially considering, for the eleven millionth time, this is the air pressure coming from the sword moving, meaning the sword strike itself is far, far more powerful


I know it very well, I've done calcs for it even. That is a 200 megaton feat. Considering bijuu dama from KN6 are in the gigatons range, not impressive. Is deadly, and dangerous, not impressive in DC output. 



Nuttynutdude said:


> I'd like you to go to a football field and look for a AA Battery standing on a ladder. Assuming Konoha is only 1 mile in diameter, that is the scale of Naruto vs Konoha. Can you even imagine something over 6 times that size?


 the difference is kn6 was a shining source. A massive black ball of energy. Nobody could see it. People can see pretty far. You can see a candle 30 miles away on a dark night. This is much bigger and dark on a brighter background. Still, no one could see it but a hyuuga. 



Nuttynutdude said:


> Itachi is below pain, there aren't a whole lot of feats to claim otherwise except for Itachi somehow outsmarting him.


I agree 100 percent. 


Nuttynutdude said:


> Obito being below Pain is debatable. Yellow mask Obito, a 16 year old pressured Minato into thinking it couldn't possibly be anyone else but Madara even though there were shinobi like Orochimaru, Fugaku, Danzo, and the seven swordsmen running around.


Pain could beat all the guys you listed but madara at the same time.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Orange Mask Obito has to be, by simple logic, much, much, MUCH stronger than his 16 year old self. This would mean that, assuming we give the hardest time, that he can challenge Minato, someone who was considered stronger than Hiruzen, who was stronger than A4, Rasa, Yagura, or Onoki.


He was never considered stronger than hiruzen. Ever. And when iruka suggests he WAS the strongest. He quickly corrects irukas tense saying he still is the strongest hokage. AND strongest kages during his entire reign. Including A4 and A3, 2nd 3rd and 4th Kazekage, and by extension gaara who is weaker than the 3rd kazekage. Etc etc. Hiruzen had better feats then KCM Minato, base minato does not compare at all.



Nuttynutdude said:


> White Mask Obito is without a doubt stronger than Nagato, since he was able to fight more opponents, all of whom were stronger than what Nagato faced, and he was winning whereas Nagato got beaten pretty badly as soon as Itachi turned on him. Plus Obito was holding back in that fight due to not wanting to exhaust his chakra earl


uhhh no. Obito was getting a 5 dollar ass whooping. And he faced weaker people. Edo Itachis hax is much more valuable than anything kakashi and gai brought to the table. AND he had 6 edo perfect jinchuriki with sharingan and Rinnegan and the gedo mazo AND MADARAS HELP and STILL couldnt do in 40 chapters what nagato did in 4 pages.


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## blk (May 12, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Firstly, there is 3 comments saying the village could be that big. And waka, who I've seen calc shit since before he changed his name andi also have contributed to plenty blog calcs that are gone now, only says it wouldnt be close to 40km based on his guess. that is a FAR cry from debunking the calc. especially with 3 additional yays. Thats weak IMO.
> 
> Everything in my calc is solid. Konoha has a giant mountain which drwarfs Gamabunta and Kyuubi who are smaller than the fuckin Hokage mansion which is literally a DOT next to the Hokage mountain. It the pic of the TBB in Konoha, Kyuubi wouldnt even be VISIBLE. So how could you say that the village isnt way bigger than 7 km? Gamabunta and kyuubi are over 100m tall, barring a few images, just that alone makes the village enormous. since they arent even bigger than a big building in Konoha.



Yep, some of them said it _could be_ that big. Not that it is.

You claimed that you calc was accepted, but this shows it wasn't. Nevertheless i don't even care about whether it was accepter or not, just showing that general consesus is that Konoha is between 7 and 14km (actually some calculations put it at 5km or so).

Bunta is roughly 15 times Naruto in this scan Kakashi did , Naruto would have to be 6m tall for Bunta to be 100m.
Assuming that Naruto is 1.8m tall, this puts Bunta at 27m (while crouched tho).
I did that with a ruler since you don't trust my eyeballing.



> They were not completely destroyed, there are still massive chunks of buildngs and even where Sakura is there are still buildings standing.



Nowhere i can see big chunks of intact buildings.
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did

Please post a scan where we can see massive chunks of buildings still standing.



> I already explained this. Those are narrow perspective shots. how else would the wall size go from like several inches on paper to not even visible. Its the same reason why Kyuubi looked so big in the village despite minato being on the other side of the village while we know Kyuubi is no bigger than the Hokage building. Its a perspective shot. All the narrow shots are consistent and all the wide shots but ONE are consistent.
> 
> 
> exactly, hence why in the wide shots you never see them, or BARELY see them. You cant judge a close up shot to the wide angle ones.
> ...



Prove that they are "narrow perspective shots" and are not to be taken as what a human would see (which considering this is a manga and not a collection of actual pictures, they are likely not "narrow perspective shots"). Also prove that you could create such a massive difference by making narrow perspective shots from such angles.

Show me the other 10 images that debunk that one, you've posted two and one of them has very low resolution so it's reasonable you couldn't see the walls.

Other wide pictures where you can easily see the walls:
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did
Kakashi did

Not in the pain arc:
Kakashi did
Kakashi did

There are actually a ton of others pictures where you see the walls from within the village, but i suppose you wouldn't accept them (even tho you haven't given proof for your refutation).

In the last picture, the Hokage monument of Minato is roughly 22 times Minato himself (again did it with a ruler) and if we were to believe that it is 200m tall (like the calculation upon which you base your argument) then the fourth would have to be 9m tall.
On the other hand, assuming even Minato is 1.8 tall, his monument would be roughly 40m tall (in reality closer to 38m, i'm being generous with the measurements).
If you use 40m, instead of 200m, as the height of the Hokage's faces in that calculation of Konoha's size you get roughly 4.6km, which is perfectly consistent with all the other evidences and images.

Another counter point that you have ignored thus far is that of the buildings. You can literally count roughly 90 buildings in a straight line in the big image of Konoha (the one usually used for the calcs where you see the "forest of death").
Now, for it to be 40km, the buildings would need to have an average length of 444m. Or some buildings would need to be literally kilometers in length and the others shorter (but that doesn't seem the case since from that same image the buildings appear very similar in length).
This is contradicted by every single image of the insides of Konoha, where the buildings have a general length of ten or so meters.

You can also clearly see Bunta and the other two toads in the crater Kakashi did
You can see their figures in the smoke.




> No, this is a baseless attampt to refute my point. we have no reason to believe there are ninja who live OUTSIDE the ninja village(not including small border villages). especially when they all have to report to one building to get their missions.
> They dont work normal jobs. Inos family own a flow shop, outside of that Ten Ten is pretty much the only other one to work a regular job. Ninja go out on missions all the time. To the point no other jonin were able to teach naruto so ebisu had to step in. and after Oros attack they sent out every ninja they had on missions to appear that they had NOT lost power. meaning thats typical for them. not at all times of the day, but thats how a ninja makes money, missions, no missions, no money. They have breaks of course but to assume kakashi is a barista at the Kaleidoscope Cafe in the afternoon is a bit weird.
> 
> It isnt baseless at all, it has FAR more base then simply saying, "i eyeballed it and nahhhh, cant be!" How is that a direct counter argument?
> ...



You are correct about that chapter being of Naruto. Anyway the mountain is that not big as shown by my calculation of Minato's Hokage face, and as you can see in the same scan you posted there are tall buildings between the gate and the mountains that would easily block the view.

Provide data about Konoha's population and the percentage of them that are shinobi (or at least rough but realistic estimates based on canon sources). Prove that it's very unlikely or impossible that some of them live outside the village (whether near or far). Prove that most of them only work as ninjas and if that's the case prove that the village's economy can't function without a greater population of civilians. Prove that this strongly, or necessarily, implies that the village is 40km of diameter.

Sorry as long as you don't provide basic evidences (from canon sources, manga or at the worst databooks, your suppositions aren't evidence) for your hypothesis i'm not gonna entertain this argument.



> getting hit into the ground would cause damage and the damage was evident by a valley that is miles long. its not like the force disappeared. and as i have said to others before, if only 1 punch hit the ground and all the others hit PS or were destroyed, it STILL would pale in comparison to CST. CST is literally over 1000 times the yield of SS best calc.
> Except for the calc that pretends that the VotE is 5 times the diameter of the sun or the ACTUAL USED CALC of Kuramas basic TBB being over 500km in diameter making the surrounding mountains 200+ km tall. Please.
> 
> The real bottom line is, there are 2 ways to judge SS's DC. Calc stacking, or damage caused.
> With calc stacking you get SS being above Kuramas basic TBB, which is under CST, so an unquantifiable number. or, you calc the destruction caused and get a number pitifully below CST, nearly 1000 times lower. even lower than the 7km CST calc is above it.



The force didn't disappear, it was mostly taken all by PS. Why would he hit the ground with his punches? I would say no punches hit the ground, no reason for it to happen.

Anyway i'm pretty sure SS's feat is considered mostly unquantifiable by the OBD. And it's reasonable since the punches hit PS and thus the force was pretty much all taken by it, therefore the destruction caused is not a fair representation of its power.

But again, and i don't get why you ignore this, we have seen PS tank without even a scratch the Kyuubi's bijuudama. If i'm not wrong standard bijuudamas are on the gigaton range, like your extremely overestimated CST.


----------



## Leaf Hurricane (May 12, 2019)

Obito mid diffs at most.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 12, 2019)

blk said:


> Yep, some of them said it _could be_ that big. Not that it is.
> 
> You claimed that you calc was accepted, but this shows it wasn't.


When did i claim the calc was "accepted?" My MATH is accepted. I never once said that the size was accepted. It ranges from under 1km to over 140km. Considering it is the biggest village in the world, a world that has legit cities and populations outside of ninjas as shown by the books, boruto and even the end of naruto.


blk said:


> Nevertheless i don't even care about whether it was accepter or not, just showing that general consesus is that Konoha is between 7 and 14km (actually some calculations put it at 5km or so).


No, one guy said in that thread that it was that big, several guys said it could be bigger and other said it needs to be recalced. that shit happens ALL the time.


blk said:


> Bunta is roughly 15 times Naruto in this scan Link removed , Naruto would have to be 6m tall for Bunta to be 100m.
> Assuming that Naruto is 1.8m tall, this puts Bunta at 27m (while crouched tho).
> I did that with a ruler since you don't trust my eyeballing.


This is the problem with your entire point. Using a 1 or 2 images doesnt suddenly negate EVERY other image. Buntas listed height is 100 meters. The Bijuu are calced to be above 100 meters. Full outstetched Kyuubi is 350+ meters tall. Gamabunta was comparable to him in size. one databook makes bunto 17 meters. Since Naruto is 15 times smaller than Bunta like you said, that means Naruto is just a bit taller than 3 foot 6 inches?????
You see, this is why your logic does not work, it IS inconsistent. Other bunta shots have him at 50 meters, some at 30. But, we know he is Bijuu sized, and the Bijuu are shown quiiiiite a bit. they are calced around 100 meters.

So when I "I dont trust your eyeballing" what I mean is, I don't trust eyeballing nor do i trust the conclusions that come from it. 


blk said:


> Nowhere i can see big chunks of intact buildings.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


Link removed
In this shot, look at the wall, several chunks are taller than the wall itself!
Link removed
Same here


blk said:


> Prove that they are "narrow perspective shots" and are not to be taken as what a human would see (which considering this is a manga and not a collection of actual pictures, they are likely not "narrow perspective shots"). Also prove that you could create such a massive difference by making narrow perspective shots from such angles.


As I explain later, the close up images should not be taken too literally as most of the time they have background shots to fill up the image, most of the time not even drawn by Kishimoto but by his assitants so they vary WILDLY, only the massive wide shots are a good estimate for Konohas size.

as for what im talking about.

Despite the moon being really far away and appearing small, it looks fuckin massive because the focal length is greater. It's how people take Moon Silhouette shots. Like the E.T. Bike scene.
A good example of this in the manga is here.
Link removed
Kyuubi looks almost as big from across the village as he does from fairly close up. Kishimoto is king of thee goofy ass perspective shots.



blk said:


> Show me the other 10 images that debunk that one, you've posted two and one of them has very low resolution so it's reasonable you couldn't see the walls.
> 
> Other wide pictures where you can easily see the walls:
> Link removed
> ...


All those images you posted are not of a wide angel and therefor invalid. Just look at any of the full village shots. the wall is barely visible.


blk said:


> There are actually a ton of others pictures where you see the walls from within the village, but i suppose you wouldn't accept them (even tho you haven't given proof for your refutation).


Dont be a dick.


blk said:


> In the last picture, the Hokage monument of Minato is roughly 22 times Minato himself (again did it with a ruler) and if we were to believe that it is 200m tall (like the calculation upon which you base your argument) then the fourth would have to be 9m tall.
> On the other hand, assuming even Minato is 1.8 tall, his monument would be roughly 40m tall (in reality closer to 38m, i'm being generous with the measurements).
> If you use 40m, instead of 200m, as the height of the Hokage's faces in that calculation of Konoha's size you get roughly 4.6km, which is perfectly consistent with all the other evidences and images.


Here, I'll make a pic to demonstrate the ridiculousness of what you are saying.

The wall in the top pic is 9 pixels tall.
The outer crater is roughly 113 pixels tall.
That means the outer crater depth is 12.55 times taller than the wall.
As for some of the ridiculously scaled picture you posted several times
Link removed
second pic in my image
The wall is 45 pixels.
The outer crater is 147 pixels
meaning the outer crater is 3.26 times taller.......
Link removed
As for this gem. third pic in my image.
Wall 24 pixels.
Inner crater 157
6.5 times the height of the wall.
Do you see my point yet? the farther you get away, the larger the village looks in comparison to the walls. Why? Because in a real crater that big the walls would look almost empty, Kishimoto needs backgrounds. so he has the walls in the scenes, despite all the major overhead village shots showing a tiny ass wall. 

For further proof, referring your minato point.

You say that Hokage mountain isnt over 200 meters. Gamabunta and Kyuubi are rought the same in size, Kyuubi is over 300 meters, Bunta is smaller than the hokage mansion. even if we assume Bunta is only 1/3rd kyuubis size, thats still 100 meters. The Hokage mansion is a fuckin pebble at the bottom off the mountain. making the village over 100km
or, to keep it brief ill leave out the pics.
minato is 35 pixels
his head is 541 pixels
15.46 times bigger.

the width of all the hokages head in that very same picture is 1723 pixels
3.18 times wider than minatos head is tall which is 15.45 times taller than minato meaning the width of the monuments is 49.16 times wider than minato is tall.you said minato was 1.8 meters. that means just from ear to ear the 4 faces total 88.49 meters wide.
Village is 1723 pixels
hokage heads are 20.
village is roughly 2km.
Or you go off of the Hokage mansion and Katsuyu and Tsunade and the wide angle shots and you get a calc like this.

which makes it 46 km. Which makes the most sense as it is the biggest village in a world of millions at the least. AND, it means kyuubis size wouldnt dwarf the mountain, like he doesnt. Whereas in your situation it would. which doesnt make sense as we have seen gamabunta under the mountain more than 1 time. same goes for the bigger Katsuyu.






blk said:


> Another counter point that you have ignored thus far is that of the buildings. You can literally count roughly 90 buildings in a straight line in the big image of Konoha (the one usually used for the calcs where you see the "forest of death").
> Now, for it to be 40km, the buildings would need to have an average length of 444m. Or some buildings would need to be literally kilometers in length and the others shorter (but that doesn't seem the case since from that same image the buildings appear very similar in length).
> This is contradicted by every single image of the insides of Konoha, where the buildings have a general length of ten or so meters.


Building counting is inaccurate and unimportant as the shit changes all the time.
and tons of the buildings, probably the majority are over 10 meters. the hokage mansion is 50 meters tall at the lowest and it isnt like towering over all the buildings. its as big as a boss summon. as are tons of other buildings.

Furthermore, the same logic can be used in the opposite way, if those building are 10 meters wide that would make minato X small or Y small, etc etc. That isnt a legit counterpoint.


blk said:


> You can also clearly see Bunta and the other two toads in the crater Link removed
> You can see their figures in the smoke.


So? They are obscure figures in smoke.



blk said:


> You are correct about that chapter being of Naruto. Anyway the mountain is that not big as shown by my calculation of Minato's Hokage face, and as you can see in the same scan you posted there are tall buildings between the gate and the mountains that would easily block the view.


No, you are wrong, the hokage mountain is visible typically from the village gate, a few extra buildings in the way would not block out a fuckin skyscaper field on top of the highest point in the village from a measly 5 km away.


blk said:


> Provide data about Konoha's population and the percentage of them that are shinobi (or at least rough but realistic estimates based on canon sources).


uhhhh, Naruto in the acadamy. Boruto in the acadamy. You arent like in the academy forever. you are in for a while take the test whenever then boom, shinobi. But there are no teens in the academy. As far as boruto goes, it seems whoever is still failing after like 12 years old they simply transfer to actual schools and shit.



blk said:


> Prove that it's very unlikely or impossible that some of them live outside the village (whether near or far).


I dont have to. You have no basis to assume it works that way.

But to give a little push back, the academy in Konoha. thats a daily thing, you live in the village and go to school in the village. All ninja funnel through the academy. why do you assume they either trek across the entire country everyday to attend school or assume they graduate then suddenly leave only to return to take missions in the village then leave again. Its nonsensical 


blk said:


> Prove that most of them only work as ninjas and if that's the case prove that the village's economy can't function without a greater population of civilians.


First off, i dont have to prove they only work as ninja. we have only seen them work as ninja. Barring Inos family that owns a flower shop. The ramen guy isnt a ninja. The plumbers, are they ninja too? where are you getting this from?

And your second point is the EASIEST shit to prove of alllll time. In the history of easy points, this one is king.
Look up american life during WW II, or any war honestly. History lesson time queue the flash back noise...
It all began in the good old WW II. because of the draft and the sheer amount of men taken from their jobs 6.5 MILLION women had to start working to make up for the lack of men working. a 37 percent rise in just a few years. why? because, you cant support an economy while your workers are gone. And what happened when the men came back? most of the women were fired. Now, if the ninja did BOTH jobs, civilian shit and military shit, in a war, a fuck ton die and are gone and now you have basic workforce. and if they didnt die, those who took their place suddenly dont have a job. It is absolutely impossible for a city to be 50 percent active duty military. its impossible. especially because logically they have at least 20 k genin, likely WAY more but whatever. those genin had parents, not all parents are ninja. if they were, they would be gone all the time and since ninja are also daycare workers in this world of yours, no one watches them either, they are all out doing missions. Konoha was still hustling and bustling when every chuunin+ was gone. How? did all the scrub genin suddenly get skills in plumbing and construction and every other skilled work position required to adequately maintain a city?



blk said:


> Prove that this strongly, or necessarily, implies that the village is 40km of diameter.


Logic. Economics. It is not economically possible to have 50 percent of your work force suddenly disappear for days at a time.

Think about it like this. Even 1 chuunin coming from the chuunin exams was considered special. Konoha has over 20K of them! That means there are FAR more genin than Chuunin. out of like 30 teams, one...just 1 ninja passed. from a group considered to be large with roughly 8 chuunin level ninja. the Konoha 12 are considered phenoms and some of them are STILL chuunin. Most of the genin at the exam were straight up adults.

let me put it this way. In world war 2, the average military population was roughly 6 percent. and economies STILL struggled heavily.
I'll spare you the detail economics math unless requested, but, assuming the average leaf citizen was as productive as an american citizen, 40k soldiers works out to about 10 million people. thats roughy equal to the greater chicago metropolitan area. now lets say its kinda like you said. ninja spread all through the country, like a metropolitan area, konoha being the center, like chicago. 40km by 40km works out to be slightly bigger than chicago but chicago has high rises and Konoha does not. it works out ALMOST PERFECTLY haha. 

But, to end this section of madness, Konoha is based off of Kishimotos home town with is about 8km by 8km, BUT, it only has 5000 people. Konoha has at least 2 million at the lowest if you consider all countries have many ninja villages. or 10 million if konoha is the only ninja village.

FUCKIN SHIT, PUTTING ME TO WORK! BLK YOU BAD MAN!


blk said:


> Sorry as long as you don't provide basic evidences (from canon sources, manga or at the worst databooks, your suppositions aren't evidence) for your hypothesis i'm not gonna entertain this argument.


It isnt an argument. Your demands are unreasonable. and the burden of proof would be on you in some of the points you presented.



blk said:


> The force didn't disappear, it was mostly taken all by PS. Why would he hit the ground with his punches? I would say no punches hit the ground, no reason for it to happen.


what? transfer of momentum. hitting down on PS puts weight through the feet. like when Naruto stopped the rhino, broke the ground behind him. Same idea. the force doesnt just disappear.


blk said:


> Anyway i'm pretty sure SS's feat is considered mostly unquantifiable by the OBD. And it's reasonable since the punches hit PS and thus the force was pretty much all taken by it, therefore the destruction caused is not a fair representation of its power.


Bro, im saying take the calc of the SS assuming only ONE punch caused the VotE and it still fails to impress.


blk said:


> But again, and i don't get why you ignore this, we have seen PS tank without even a scratch the Kyuubi's bijuudama. If i'm not wrong standard bijuudamas are on the gigaton range, like your extremely overestimated CST.


How am I ignoring anything, man? Really. I already addressed that. and yes, they are in the single digit gigaton. my reasonable CST calc, I could do the full 140km one lol, is in the triple digit gigatons. FAR more powerful. which YOU are ignoring.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 13, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I know it very well, I've done calcs for it even. That is a 200 megaton feat. Considering bijuu dama from KN6 are in the gigatons range, not impressive. Is deadly, and dangerous, not impressive in DC output.


I'd certainly love to see what you factored in, because you can't forget the fact that 
1. the mountaintops were thrown up into the air farther than they were tall
2. that was not even the actual sword hitting the mountains


kokodeshide said:


> Konoha has at least 2 million at the lowest if you consider all countries have many ninja villages. or 10 million if konoha is the only ninja village.


Y'wanna explain where you got this? If a city had 2 million people where shinobi are considered a very prestigious line of work, why is there 1 academy with classes around 20-30? There should be a good 10% of the population under 12, so there should be 20,000 people in the academy, right? Or even half that, 10,000. That requires WAY more than anything they have shown. 

Plus, 10 Million? Are you insane? That's more than Tokyo, which has an area of 845 square miles, and that's the densest city in the world. How the actual hell would 10 million fit into one city, ever?


----------



## kokodeshide (May 13, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> I'd certainly love to see what you factored in, because you can't forget the fact that
> 1. the mountaintops were thrown up into the air farther than they were tall


That isn't that impressive next to completely destroying a mountain till there was nothing left.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. that was not even the actual sword hitting the mountains


I get that.
look at it like this, a volcano explodes with a force in the many megatons for a decent sized volcano. Krakatoa, a volcano so fuckin powerful and  loud that when it blew it literally echoed around the fuckin world....4 fuckin times. So powerful it blew the mountain and small island it was on into big pieces. That was a 200 megaton explosion. Similar to the results of madaras feat but far more impressive.
 Bijuudama destroy mountains completely, cratering the area. like a meteor. A 20 gigaton meteor impact creates similar results to a bijuudama. 

Trust me when i tell you, the force of that swing is childs play in terms of total power. But, that doesnt mean it cant kill 99 percent of the verse if it hits them.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Y'wanna explain where you got this? If a city had 2 million people where shinobi are considered a very prestigious line of work, why is there 1 academy with classes around 20-30? There should be a good 10% of the population under 12, so there should be 20,000 people in the academy, right? Or even half that, 10,000. That requires WAY more than anything they have shown.


The academy literally cannot be only 1 class and cannot be only 30 kids. shit, we even see the other teachers at the school. Mizuki for example. 
To have 20k chuunin+ ninja, you need class sizes WAY bigger than 30 kids. You really think Konoha when Hiruzen was a kid and saw Tobirama make the academy only had 1 school and 1 class of 30 every year for 50+ years of growth???
Think about it like this. If the academy had 30 kids graduate every 4 months, thats 90 a year. lets BS and assume they all become chunin despite chuunin being something even gifted Ninja dont atain easily. It would take....222 YEARS to reach 20k ninja. assume NO ONE died and NO ONE retired and they all lived to be 222. Its impossible, dude.
The kids who dont get into the academy go to regular school, the academy is SPECIAL and it STILL produced over 20000 chuunin+ ninja at one time.
And logically, the numbers would go Regular Students>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Genin>>>>>Chunin>>>Jounin>>Anbu
Being a ninja is an execption, not the rule.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Plus, 10 Million? Are you insane? That's more than Tokyo, which has an area of 845 square miles, and that's the densest city in the world. How the actual hell would 10 million fit into one city, ever?


tokyo isnt even in the top TEN of densest cities in the world. The shibuya crossing is what you are probably thinking of.
Fun fact. Shoulder to shoulder...every one of the 7 BILLION people on this planet could stand in Los Angeles.
Shanghai has 24 MILLION people
Manila has a population density of over 100k people PER km/^2
Tokyo is only 7k per km^2
Manila, in total, metropolitan, city, urban areas has like 22 million peopl and it is smaller than 50 km^2. So yes, 10 million in 1 city is VERY possible, and very easy.
There are more than 10 citties that currently have over 10 million people.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 13, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I get that.
> look at it like this, a volcano explodes with a force in the many megatons for a decent sized volcano. Krakatoa, a volcano so fuckin powerful and loud that when it blew it literally echoed around the fuckin world....4 fuckin times. So powerful it blew the mountain and small island it was on into big pieces. That was a 200 megaton explosion. Similar to the results of madaras feat but far more impressive.
> Bijuudama destroy mountains completely, cratering the area. like a meteor. A 20 gigaton meteor impact creates similar results to a bijuudama.
> 
> Trust me when i tell you, the force of that swing is childs play in terms of total power. But, that doesnt mean it cant kill 99 percent of the verse if it hits them.


20 Gigatons? Are you sure? Tsar Bomba was 50 Megatons, 20x less than a gigaton. That's quite the number, considering Tsar Bomba shattered windows thousands of miles away while Pain's strongest attack ever couldn't even destroy the whole village.


kokodeshide said:


> The academy literally cannot be only 1 class and cannot be only 30 kids. shit, we even see the other teachers at the school. Mizuki for example.
> To have 20k chuunin+ ninja, you need class sizes WAY bigger than 30 kids. You really think Konoha when Hiruzen was a kid and saw Tobirama make the academy only had 1 school and 1 class of 30 every year for 50+ years of growth???
> Think about it like this. If the academy had 30 kids graduate every 4 months, thats 90 a year. lets BS and assume they all become chunin despite chuunin being something even gifted Ninja dont atain easily. It would take....222 YEARS to reach 20k ninja. assume NO ONE died and NO ONE retired and they all lived to be 222. Its impossible, dude.
> The kids who dont get into the academy go to regular school, the academy is SPECIAL and it STILL produced over 20000 chuunin+ ninja at one time.
> ...


You're right, most of the population wouldn't make it to Jonin or Chunin. That still leaves us with thousands of kids. Assuming we had 100 classes of 30 each(which is a stupidly small number, considering the county I live in has 730,000 people and the nearest high school is one of a half a dozen in the district and still has 1.5k students), dividing by the 4 years of academy students, still makes 0 sense that they would only need a dozen Jonin to lead them. The only way this would make any sense is if less than 5% of academy students pass the basic ACADEMY. But Naruto was ridiculed for not being able to pass it. He is obviously not the norm, which means that most if not all students pass. 


kokodeshide said:


> tokyo isnt even in the top TEN of densest cities in the world. The shibuya crossing is what you are probably thinking of.
> Fun fact. Shoulder to shoulder...every one of the 7 BILLION people on this planet could stand in Los Angeles.
> Shanghai has 24 MILLION people
> Manila has a population density of over 100k people PER km/^2
> ...


Point taken, I was wrong.

The idea still stands, what the hell makes you think we're in the millions? Considering fact that people are not living like they are in Hong Kong and there are no buildings higher than 3 stories, there is no way that village could handle 10 million


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## kokodeshide (May 14, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 20 Gigatons? Are you sure? Tsar Bomba was 50 Megatons, 20x less than a gigaton. That's quite the number, considering Tsar Bomba shattered windows thousands of miles away while Pain's strongest attack ever couldn't even destroy the whole village.


Different kind of attack. CST isnt a massively hypersonic blast wave. Its similar to a solid wave of force.

The Tsar bomba was a big ass bomb, but even at 50 megatons there was no crater at the blast site. The site has been used for dozens of nukes, no craters. And windows 500 miles away broke, not over 1000.

As for the CST, it completely pulverized many mountains worth of rock into nothingness, leaving a MASSIVE crater many times deeper than the height of the kyuubi

Look at this video, one of my favorites ever.
Despite being detonated underground, a 5 MT bomb merely makes the ground hiccup. 
Mt. Saint Helens blew its side off. 28 megatons.
Krakatoa at 200 megatons only shattered a mountain.
A 20 gigaton meteor makes a crater about 5.5km wide.
Which one of those sounds most like madaras. Krakatoa. and hilariously enough, they have the same DC calculation.
which one of those sounds like CST? The meteor.

I'll put it another way.
Take a rock and a hammer with a chisel. Now split the rock in half. boom easy, 1 or 2 hits.
Not take a rock of the same size and smash it to powder with the hammer. How much more work did that take? ALOT. Thats why pulverizing a mountain is FAR more impressive than splitting one. You see what im saying?




Nuttynutdude said:


> (which is a stupidly small number, considering the county I live in has 730,000 people and the nearest high school is one of a half a dozen in the district and still has 1.5k students)


I read this as country, scared me for a second.


Nuttynutdude said:


> You're right, most of the population wouldn't make it to Jonin or Chunin. That still leaves us with thousands of kids. Assuming we had 100 classes of 30 each(which is a stupidly small number, considering the county I live in has 730,000 people and the nearest high school is one of a half a dozen in the district and still has 1.5k students), dividing by the 4 years of academy students, still makes 0 sense that they would only need a dozen Jonin to lead them. The only way this would make any sense is if less than 5% of academy students pass the basic ACADEMY. But Naruto was ridiculed for not being able to pass it. He is obviously not the norm, which means that most if not all students pass.


But they dont only have a dozen Jounin. there has to be hundreds of jounin. thousands even. You agree you there would be more genin than chuunin, right? you need 1 jounin per 3 genin. that adds up to over 6k jounin at least!
remember how fast populations grow. there were alot of people in the world. its been over 1000 years since Kaguya died. there would logically be millions and millions of people.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Point taken, I was wrong.


Thanks for acknowledging that.


Nuttynutdude said:


> The idea still stands, what the hell makes you think we're in the millions? Considering fact that people are not living like they are in Hong Kong and there are no buildings higher than 3 stories, there is no way that village could handle 10 million


It could if it was Massive, like it is calced to be. 

for a village 46km^2 diveded by 10 million thats only 4725 people per square kilometer.
Cairo in egypt is a city that almost perfectly fits this. google some pics of Cairo Despite having almost 10 million people, not many high rises.

Konohas has many many many building over 3 stories lol. there are buidling bigger than Gamabunta. building big next to the kyuubi.


----------



## blk (May 14, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> This is the problem with your entire point. Using a 1 or 2 images doesnt suddenly negate EVERY other image. Buntas listed height is 100 meters. The Bijuu are calced to be above 100 meters. Full outstetched Kyuubi is 350+ meters tall. Gamabunta was comparable to him in size. one databook makes bunto 17 meters. Since Naruto is 15 times smaller than Bunta like you said, that means Naruto is just a bit taller than 3 foot 6 inches?????
> You see, this is why your logic does not work, it IS inconsistent. Other bunta shots have him at 50 meters, some at 30. But, we know he is Bijuu sized, and the Bijuu are shown quiiiiite a bit. they are calced around 100 meters.
> 
> So when I "I dont trust your eyeballing" what I mean is, I don't trust eyeballing nor do i trust the conclusions that come from it.



This manga is inconsistent, not my logic. I'm using the inconsistencies to show how your calculations are flawed.

Also show me every other image where bunta is 100 meters tall (pretty sure we'll find many other images where he isn't).

Moreover, since this manga is extremely inconsistent when it comes to size, the more comparisons we make the less accurate our results will be, therefore the most reasonable and accurate way to determine the power of an attack would be to use as less comparisons as possible and in the same panels (or at worst arc) if possible.
Therefore for CST's calc it is most reasonable to use the Gamabunta in chapter 430 for example (roughly 30m tall as i've measured).

The calc you are using makes more comparisons than necessary with images from completely different arcs (i don't even know from where that image of the Hokage's heads comes from), with cherry picked images. In a ton of other images you can see that the Hokage's heads are not that big (in Pain's arc, Minato's arc, even literally in the first chapter, and many more).
A more direct comparison is the one i made where you directly compare Minato to his monument, and then use the usual Konoha image to determine its size.
Tho, as you'll read below, the calculation you are using has also other flaws.



> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> In this shot, look at the wall, several chunks are taller than the wall itself!
> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> Same here



Ok now i'm starting to question if you are just trolling. Or maybe you are blind (or maybe i am?). You said that there were chunks of _intact and standing_ buildings.
They are nowhere to be seen in those images, there is only rubble and pieces of broken buildings.



> As I explain later, the close up images should not be taken too literally as most of the time they have background shots to fill up the image, most of the time not even drawn by Kishimoto but by his assitants so they vary WILDLY, only the massive wide shots are a good estimate for Konohas size.
> 
> as for what im talking about.
> 
> ...



Or maybe you know, the image you are using for your unsubstantiated point about "narrow perspective" is the one that is wrong and inconsistent.

You can't claim the following images are narrow perspective:
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui

All of them are pretty much full village shots, the walls are clearly visible either from up above or from one extreme of the village to the other.
The one in chapter 115 is the best and farthest image of Konoha we have, yet the walls are visible and not small (compared to the rest of the village) by any means.
Yeah maybe the ratio between them and the village is a bit lower compared to the others, but not significantly enough to justify 40km of diameter.
Your point about "the farthest they are the smaller the ratio" doesn't stand, it's just Kishimoto not caring about precise sizes.
No reason for why Kishi couldn't have used the crater itself as a background if it was that big.

And now that i think about it, the reason why we don't see the walls in the images you've used for your argument is because the aren't walls in that part of Konoha.
Look again at this image: so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
In the right, there are no walls, which is the same part where KN6's bijuudama exploded:
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
So obviously we aren't gonna see the walls where there aren't in the first place. Tho you can still easily see the small amount of rubbles (not even close to what you would have if Konoha was a 40km metropolis).
And even if this wasn't the case, it's your images that are the outliers and not clear in the slightest compared to those i've presented (where you can see much better the shape and size of the village).



You mention again that calc with Katsuyu, but I've better checked it and it has major problems.
First, in the image of Katsuyu and Hokage mansion he is using the anbu appears smaller than he is in the standard image (funny that the guy who calced doesn't even know that Kakashi isn't there and that he is using a generic anbu, says a lot about his knowledge of the manga and credibility):
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
From this image (which is the one we should be using, not the colored one with less resolution) the radius of the top of the Hokage's mansion is only roughly ten times the anbu. If we assume that the anbu is 1.8m, then the diameter of the top is 36m and not 61m.
Second, for comparing the Hokage's mansion diameter to the Hokage's faces he uses for no reason that strange image of Konoha that probably comes from part 1 (and is contradicted by other chapters in part 1 where the faces are not that big).
If we use a much more relevant image such as this: so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
We get that the diameter of the top of the Hokage's mansion and the faces is essentially the same, which means roughly 36m..... perfectly consistent with the measurement i did with Minato. Also note how the Hokage's mansion isn't a "pebble" compared to the mountain.

Did with a ruler all of these measurements and i suggest you do the same.

The Katsuyu there almost seems an anime screenshot.

Note that everything is pretty much consistent: Naruto, Minato, the anbu etc are all normal human sized (and not 9m tall), Bunta and Katsuyu are between 30m and 40m, the Hokage's faces are roughly 40m, the village is between 5km and 14km (as stated by the OBD) and therefore all the images where we see the walls from the crater, or from the other side of the village, or from above, are completely justified. Even the images of the Kyuubi in Minato's arc become all justified (roughly, obviously).
Which in turn debunks your CST calc (based on the 46km of diameter) and puts Pain and Nagato below Madara, as they should be, which is consistent with any reasonable interpretation of portrayal and story progression.

Therefore, you don't need that convoluted explanation about "narrow perspective" for which you have no proof that it happened (i guarantee Kishi never ever thought about that, he simply draws as he likes without caring too much about perfect size consistencies). Your argument boils down to "this image disproves my calculation therefore it is narrow perspective".
It is an unnecessary assumption.

Occam's razor forces us to discard your argument (if you are a rational person, that is).



> Building counting is inaccurate and unimportant as the shit changes all the time.
> and tons of the buildings, probably the majority are over 10 meters. the hokage mansion is 50 meters tall at the lowest and it isnt like towering over all the buildings. its as big as a boss summon. as are tons of other buildings.
> 
> Furthermore, the same logic can be used in the opposite way, if those building are 10 meters wide that would make minato X small or Y small, etc etc. That isnt a legit counterpoint.
> So? They are obscure figures in smoke.



How is it inaccurate? You count the buildings in a straight line from the Hokage's mansion to the walls, and you get an average length for them based on the diameter of the village you choose. Nothing inaccurate about it.
An image of Konoha with good resolution can be found in your own calc thread:

You can clearly count the buildings from that one.

Then you compare said length to what we see in images of the insides of Konoha and determine whether such number corresponds (it doesn't, the buildings all have a pretty standard length).
I don't care about height in this case, but length. Even if they were all 50m long it still wouldn't be nearly enough (again, with the 40km diameter, you need either an average length of 444m or to have some buildings be kilometers in length while the others of normal length).
Obviously i don't need to tell you how unrealistic these measurements are, nor how unrealistic it is for a supposed metropolis to barely have 90 buildings between one extreme to the other.

But then again if you discard that absurd calculation you used, everything makes sense.



> No, you are wrong, the hokage mountain is visible typically from the village gate, a few extra buildings in the way would not block out a fuckin skyscaper field on top of the highest point in the village from a measly 5 km away.



so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
On the upper left panel you can see a building that for example would block the view (the one in the left).



> uhhhh, Naruto in the acadamy. Boruto in the acadamy. You arent like in the academy forever. you are in for a while take the test whenever then boom, shinobi. But there are no teens in the academy. As far as boruto goes, it seems whoever is still failing after like 12 years old they simply transfer to actual schools and shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ninjutsu is essentially magic, i wouldn't be surprised if their economy can function even with a little bit of them working normal jobs (look at how Yamato alone was able to create houses in an instant). Real life economics don't necessarily work in fiction with magic.

And it's not even clear most of them do missions outside the village once they are chunin, many have jobs in hospitals, intelligence, as sensors, guards, and probably general office workers for Konoha's bureaucracy.
Tenten and Ino's families are just examples to show that some of them do work normal jobs, thus it's not unreasonable to suppose that more of them do except the most talented (such as the best Jounins and the likes).
But even assuming you are correct about the economics, you still haven't presented proof that all of the 20k chunin necessarily live in Konoha.
Considering that some images suggest that there are buildings and houses outside Konoha but not too far, i don't see why this can't be a reasonable possibility.

The academy and chunin exam actually support my argument considering how few genin there were. All of the local schools of my small town have way more students than that.
So much for Konoha being a Chicago-like metropolis.

Anyway this argument about population is not even relevant anymore since i've debunked the calculation you used for Konoha's size.




> what? transfer of momentum. hitting down on PS puts weight through the feet. like when Naruto stopped the rhino, broke the ground behind him. Same idea. the force doesnt just disappear.
> 
> Bro, im saying take the calc of the SS assuming only ONE punch caused the VotE and it still fails to impress.
> How am I ignoring anything, man? Really. I already addressed that. and yes, they are in the single digit gigaton. my reasonable CST calc, I could do the full 140km one lol, is in the triple digit gigatons. FAR more powerful. which YOU are ignoring.



The momentum that was transferred to the ground was a minuscule part of the force, the vast vast majority was transferred to the "atoms" (or whatever PS is made of) of PS that were blown away from the construct, in the form of kinetic energy (i.e the more energy you give to the atoms and the more they vibrate, to the point where they break their bond with each other and scatter with the kinetic energy that was causing the vibration).
There is no way to quantify how much energy was necessary to break the bond of PS's atoms (at the very least much more than that of a full Kyuubi's bijuudama), and therefore what's the percentage of energy that was transferred to the ground and caused the destruction.

I did not ignore your calculation, i debunked it.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 14, 2019)

blk said:


> This manga is inconsistent, not my logic. I'm using the inconsistencies to show how your calculations are flawed.
> 
> Also show me every other image where bunta is 100 meters tall (pretty sure we'll find many other images where he isn't).
> 
> ...


Bro, this isnt that complicated. You want to use the extreme extreme low end of a CST calc by "debunking" Konohas size by using methods that also debunk the low end size. That is either bias or a severe misunderstanding.

Konoha has a MASSIVE diameter range of 1 km to 140km.
I am using 46 km as a mid range based on numerous factors.
1. It can be calced at that size or FAR bigger using roughly 5 different methods at the base of the calc. Kyuubi, Katsuyu, Gamabunta, Naruto, Forest of death.
2. the lower end calcs have the exact same flaws EVERY calc has, massive inconsistency. therefore, you add up the calcs chose a point, find a middle area that makes sense with other factors.
3. the forest of death. the forest up in the corner in the chapter 115 image is undoubtedly the forest of death It shares every single feature but a river split, a slight oversight. we know the forest of death is 20 km wide. the 46km calc lines konoha up so perfecly with the forest of death. We know all the training grounds of Konoha are along its outside.
4. Economics make a village with over 40k soldiers require millions of people to remain economically stable.  a village of millions has to be pretty big. As i said to nutty, look at Cairo, lines up pretty well with konoha.

All things being considered, it makes no sense that the village is under 10km. the forest of death alone proves that. Kyuubis size in konoha proves that, Katsuyu proves that. Inconsistency does not disprove my calc because the smaller calcs are inconsistent as well.
But we know the 40 km calc lines right up with the forest of death. So that is easily the most consistent.

It also lines up with this shot right here.
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
We know Naruto and pain are on the other side of the CT crater, a crater many tens of Kilometers long, the span of a mountain range. They can still clearly see the smoking crater of the TBB.  EASILY. you cant be tens of Kilometers away from something and have it still be the dominant part of your field of view and have it be only 7 km. 


blk said:


> Ok now i'm starting to question if you are just trolling. Or maybe you are blind (or maybe i am?). You said that there were chunks of _intact and standing_ buildings.
> They are nowhere to be seen in those images, there is only rubble and pieces of broken buildings.


Bro, if singular chunks are big enough to be free standing taller than the fuckin wall, that IS a big chunk of a building. and there are intact buildings where Sakura is. and elsewhere, 
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
Bottom panel.
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
Bottom panel.
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
On the right.

Extra
so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui


blk said:


> Or maybe you know, the image you are using for your unsubstantiated point about "narrow perspective" is the one that is wrong and inconsistent.


what? the whole thing is inconsistent, bruv. But this is a fact. 



blk said:


> You can't claim the following images are narrow perspective:
> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui


Number 3 i can. and its the dumbest one, as i proved its not even half of the other crater depths.


blk said:


> All of them are pretty much full village shots, the walls are clearly visible either from up above or from one extreme of the village to the other.
> The one in chapter 115 is the best and farthest image of Konoha we have, yet the walls are visible and not small (compared to the rest of the village) by any means.
> Yeah maybe the ratio between them and the village is a bit lower compared to the others, but not significantly enough to justify 40km of diameter.
> Your point about "the farthest they are the smaller the ratio" doesn't stand, it's just Kishimoto not caring about precise sizes.
> No reason for why Kishi couldn't have used the crater itself as a background if it was that big.


Kishimoto doesnt want to be kubo and draw fights with zero background, bruv. I already proved the variation of wall size already so I fail to understand how this is even a point still.

Also, the sky wide shot you see tiny bits of the way yes, from the outside. the wide shots from inside the crater, you barely see shit.


blk said:


> And now that i think about it, the reason why we don't see the walls in the images you've used for your argument is because the aren't walls in that part of Konoha.
> Look again at this image: so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> In the right, there are no walls, which is the same part where KN6's bijuudama exploded:
> so he asked for more chakra not for something that boost his kamui
> ...


There are more big calcs for Konoha than small ones so the small ones would be the outliers.

and the rubble is roughly 70 percent the height of the wall anyway, not that big of a deal as you can still only BARELY see the height off the rubble.


blk said:


> You mention again that calc with Katsuyu, but I've better checked it and it has major problems.
> First, in the image of Katsuyu and Hokage mansion he is using the anbu appears smaller than he is in the standard image (funny that the guy who calced doesn't even know that Kakashi isn't there and that he is using a generic anbu, says a lot about his knowledge of the manga and credibility):
> Link removed
> From this image (which is the one we should be using, not the colored one with less resolution) the radius of the top of the Hokage's mansion is only roughly ten times the anbu. If we assume that the anbu is 1.8m, then the diameter of the top is 36m and not 61m.
> ...


You have your numbers off.
Assuming the ninja highlighted is the tallest anbu there at 1.8 meters. as that is where he was standing in comparison to tsunade.
Anbu=20 pixels
Diameter of the mansion top, by using an ellipse tool to complete the circle=626 pixels
31.3 times bigger.
Times 1.8 meters
That comes out to 56.34 meters, within range of his and not enough to heavily tilt the calc in 1 way or another.

As for the pic he used to compare the heads to the mountain there are WAY worse pics. and 


blk said:


> The Katsuyu there almost seems an anime screenshot.


colored manga. line work is a dead give away.



blk said:


> Note that everything is pretty much consistent: Naruto, Minato, the anbu etc are all normal human sized (and not 9m tall), Bunta and Katsuyu are between 30m and 40m, the Hokage's faces are roughly 40m, the village is between 5km and 14km (as stated by the OBD) and therefore all the images where we see the walls from the crater, or from the other side of the village, or from above, are completely justified. Even the images of the Kyuubi in Minato's arc become all justified (roughly, obviously).


No, because Bunta was roughly half kyuubis size. Kyuubi is over 350 meters. Making bunta well over a hundred. Than means Naruto and Minato at times are almost 10 times taller at times. See, this is what i mean, every calcs has this problem cause a different calc exposes it. But we have statements for the forest of death and we see it being small next to konoha. Thats pretty straight forward.



blk said:


> Which in turn debunks your CST calc (based on the 46km of diameter) and puts Pain and Nagato below Madara, as they should be, which is consistent with any reasonable interpretation of portrayal and story progression.


It doesn't debunk anything.
What should Nagato, the third sage of 6 paths, be weaker than EMS Madara? How does a master of Rinnegan have portrayal below a master of a lesser dojutsu.
Madara had Kyuubi
Nagato has the Mazo

Madara attacked the village many times.
Nagato 1 shot the village with his second strongest Jutsu.

And story progression? The story tells us very clearly that Rinnegan is superior to Sharingan. The manga makes Sasuke and Madara comparisons. The manga makes Hagoromo and Nagato comparisons. 
Portrayal is that Madara was a founder. Stronger than anyone but Hashirama in his time.But when faced with capturing Naruto and Bee, even with the help of rinnegan, unlimited chakra and Mokuton, he failed to do in several chapters what Nagato did in several pages. Nagato is repeatedly referred to as an invincible force. Kishi even needed his golden boy itachi to have assistance from the 2 strongest Jinchuriki just to secure a victory with the most broken weapon there is.
Madara was defeated by Hirudora from a nearly dead Gai...
What does that tell you?


blk said:


> Therefore, you don't need that convoluted explanation about "narrow perspective" for which you have no proof that it happened (i guarantee Kishi never ever thought about that, he simply draws as he likes without caring too much about perfect size consistencies). Your argument boils down to "this image disproves my calculation therefore it is narrow perspective".
> It is an unnecessary assumption.
> 
> Occam's razor forces us to discard your argument (if you are a rational person, that is).


No, thats literally what you are doing, you are saying "this image disproves your image" When the images are all over the place!



blk said:


> Link removed
> On the upper left panel you can see a building that for example would block the view (the one in the left).


thats from an entirely different perspective. From 7 kilometers away, that building would obscure anything. only the mountain would be visible.



blk said:


> Ninjutsu is essentially magic, i wouldn't be surprised if their economy can function even with a little bit of them working normal jobs (look at how Yamato alone was able to create houses in an instant). Real life economics don't necessarily work in fiction with magic.
> 
> And it's not even clear most of them do missions outside the village once they are chunin, many have jobs in hospitals, intelligence, as sensors, guards, and probably general office workers for Konoha's bureaucracy.
> Tenten and Ino's families are just examples to show that some of them do work normal jobs, thus it's not unreasonable to suppose that more of them do except the most talented (such as the best Jounins and the likes).


That is a really weak counterargument. all the jobs you listed are a fraction of what a village requires.
And, tons of genin are kids that wouldnt be fuckin electricians and shit. To assume all the ins and outs of a city are done exclusively by the soldiers is ridiculous.



blk said:


> But even assuming you are correct about the economics, you still haven't presented proof that all of the 20k chunin necessarily live in Konoha.
> Considering that some images suggest that there are buildings and houses outside Konoha but not too far, i don't see why this can't be a reasonable possibility.


Im not saying it is or isnt. YOU made the claim they can live elsewhere. There is no reason to assume they do. so you have to support that.


blk said:


> The academy and chunin exam actually support my argument considering how few genin there were. All of the local schools of my small town have way more students than that.
> So much for Konoha being a Chicago-like metropolis.


I dont even get your point here. I am saying that there are thousands of academy students at any one time. A chunin rate that low means the amount of genin is MASSIVE. Which is logical.


blk said:


> Anyway this argument about population is not even relevant anymore since i've debunked the calculation you used for Konoha's size.


You didnt debunk anything. You pointed out the flaw in CALCS. that goes for your calcs, my calcs, the OBDs calcs.


blk said:


> The momentum that was transferred to the ground was a minuscule part of the force, the vast vast majority was transferred to the "atoms" (or whatever PS is made of) of PS that were blown away from the construct, in the form of kinetic energy (i.e the more energy you give to the atoms and the more they vibrate, to the point where they break their bond with each other and scatter with the kinetic energy that was causing the vibration).
> There is no way to quantify how much energy was necessary to break the bond of PS's atoms (at the very least much more than that of a full Kyuubi's bijuudama), and therefore what's the percentage of energy that was transferred to the ground and caused the destruction.
> 
> I did not ignore your calculation, i debunked it.


 I dont think you have a full grasp on physics here. If i hit the top of a table, the force with travel down and split between its 4 legs. To deny that is ridiculous. 

And only a fraction of Kyuubis TBB even hit Madara, SS and CST are solid forces, not blast waves. 

In reality, if you think all calcs are just bogus because they can all be proven wrong by other calcs, what exactly are you using to judge the power of each attack?


----------



## X III (May 14, 2019)

Madara low to mid diffs with Perfect Susanoo.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 14, 2019)

X III said:


> Madara low to mid diffs with Perfect Susanoo.


 Preta GG


----------



## LIBU (May 15, 2019)

PS should be enough to deal with CST


----------



## X III (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Preta GG


In your wet dreams.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

X III said:


> In your wet dreams.


AND in reality.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 15, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No they aren't. Yata is a spiritual* tool *and so is Totsuka. Those weapons aren't absorbable at all, reread the manga/databook.



Perhaps you should listen to your own advice. Last time a spiritual attack which could attack was shown in the manga, it was just chakra (Shikamaru vs Tayuya). Spiritual energy = one half of chakra and if you read the material you'd see that spiritual energy cannot be manifested without some physical energy... which makes it chakra.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 15, 2019)

X III said:


> In your wet dreams.



You think PS cannot be absorbed?


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Which one of those sounds most like madaras. Krakatoa. and hilariously enough, they have the same DC calculation.
> which one of those sounds like CST? The meteor.
> 
> I'll put it another way.
> ...


1. And Kamui sounds like tears in space time, therefore relevancy?
2. Yes. That is true. But you keep forgetting that this isn't the chisel, its swinging the chisel and getting that result, plus pressure /= force. That's basic physics. A chisel with half the force of a hammer could break away metal when the hammer can't. They aren't comparable like that


kokodeshide said:


> But they dont only have a dozen Jounin. there has to be hundreds of jounin. thousands even. You agree you there would be more genin than chuunin, right? you need 1 jounin per 3 genin. that adds up to over 6k jounin at least!
> remember how fast populations grow. there were alot of people in the world. its been over 1000 years since Kaguya died. there would logically be millions and millions of people.


Except we actually see the jonin in the village when Hiruzen assigns them to academy students. And that 6000 number is based on the assumption that there are 3000 genin in konoha alone. So does that mean 99% of genin never make it to chunin? Duy was famously ridiculed for not making it to chunin. Assuming that the genin do it 5 years apart to not overwhelm the chunin exam, you'd still have dozens per exam, per village. The numbers just don't add up. And if they had thousands, why were there not thousands when the nine tails attacked?


kokodeshide said:


> google some pics of Cairo Despite having almost 10 million people, not many high rises.


Cairo has 19 million people with 19376 people per square kilometer... plus it is over 1000 square miles in area....


----------



## blk (May 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Bro, this isnt that complicated. You want to use the extreme extreme low end of a CST calc by "debunking" Konohas size by using methods that also debunk the low end size. That is either bias or a severe misunderstanding.
> 
> Konoha has a MASSIVE diameter range of 1 km to 140km.
> I am using 46 km as a mid range based on numerous factors.
> ...



So i see we are in agreement that the whole thing is inconsistent. The only thing left is to establish the best method to quantify the specific attack we want quantify, which is CST, and which sizes to pick.

To me, the obvious solution is to use Pain's arc images, sizes and ratios as much as possible (except the one in chapter 115 which is the only almost full Konoha shot we have). Getting numbers from other arcs is clearly gonna create even more problem than the already inconsistent Pain arc.
And the Pain arc tells us that the village is nowhere near the 40/50km diameter, and that Gamabunta and Katsuyu are not 100m tall or more.
My calculation, using the Pain's arc Hokage's heads, is a fairer estimation of CST's power since it doesn't inflate it with sizes coming from other arcs (more details below in direct response to your calc).

There is no definitive proof that that is the FoD (would create insane inconsistencies within that same image with the Hokage's heads and Hokage's mansion), and again we ought not to inflate CST with sizes that are inconsistent with its own arc.

Your point about economics and population falls flat when one considers that:

1) Konoha is a military village first and foremost, since it was created as an alliance between Uchiha and Senju (and other clans after that) that were pretty much big mercenary groups. And since not many generations passed between the main story and founding era, the percentage of people in the military (i.e shinobi) was probably still extremely high.
Your comparison with real world economics and military is flawed just because of this fact, and even more if one considers the fundamental differences between real world tech-based armies and a magic-based army and how in Konoha shinobis can and do live normal lives and do normal jobs when in peace times (already mentioned the examples, obviously they are non exhaustive but i'm just presenting this as a reasonable possibility, which shows how your argument is inconclusive).

2) In chapter 115  you can see, especially up north, how there are other settlements outside of Konoha. Obviously these aren't empty and very unlikely to be unrelated to the village, therefore it's reasonable to think that there could be others around where people live.
For another example the Uzumaki clan was of those allied to Konoha, yet the Uzumaki lived outside the village.
So it's unclear whether all of Konoha's military is stationed within it or not, there is no definitive proof either way.
And even if it was, the first point about an high percentage of military within the village still stands.



> Bro, if singular chunks are big enough to be free standing taller than the fuckin wall, that IS a big chunk of a building. and there are intact buildings where Sakura is. and elsewhere,
> teleporting them
> Bottom panel.
> teleporting them
> ...



Ok, i thought you were saying that there were parts of the village not touched by CST or the debris.



> Kishimoto doesnt want to be kubo and draw fights with zero background, bruv. I already proved the variation of wall size already so I fail to understand how this is even a point still.
> 
> Also, the sky wide shot you see tiny bits of the way yes, from the outside. the wide shots from inside the crater, you barely see shit.
> 
> ...



A crater is a background. You only proved that there are inconsistencies in how he draws the walls (which we agree on), but you didn't prove that it happens because he uses the narrow perspective.

But at this point, regardless of that, it's undeniable that the walls are always very visible and the only reason why they weren't in the pics you used was because they weren't in that part of the village in the first place.
Another proof coming directly from Pain's arc is the image you posted above (didn't remember about it) teleporting them . In that scan, not only there aren't walls in the side where the bijuudama exploded (consistent with chapter 115's shot), but the walls on the other side can be seen very well.

To me the rubble seem very apparent Link removed , Link removed . In the latter a bit less, but it's also because of lower resolution of that particular image.

Anyway, i assume you agree now that the walls are clearly visible from within the village, from one extreme to the other and from above. Which strongly implies the village is nowhere near 40km in diameter.



> You have your numbers off.
> Assuming the ninja highlighted is the tallest anbu there at 1.8 meters. as that is where he was standing in comparison to tsunade.
> Anbu=20 pixels
> Diameter of the mansion top, by using an ellipse tool to complete the circle=626 pixels
> ...



Wait what anbu are you using? I'm using the tallest one in the upper left image Link removed . In the bottom image, he should be the third one starting from the right, tho i've realized that the calc in vsbattles didn't pick him but the fourth one from the right (which is much shorter than the third one and seems to be a woman, definitely not Kakashi like the calcer assumed, and therefore extremely unlikely to be 1.8m tall).
Why are you using an ellipse? Seems more like a circle Link removed

Tho even if we used your 56.34m calculation, since in chapter 429 we can see the Hokage's heads have essentially that same length, we would still get a radius of 6.5km and therefore a diameter of 13km.
Sounds good to me.




> It doesn't debunk anything.
> What should Nagato, the third sage of 6 paths, be weaker than EMS Madara? How does a master of Rinnegan have portrayal below a master of a lesser dojutsu.
> Madara had Kyuubi
> Nagato has the Mazo
> ...



Kyuubi > Gedo Mazo.

It was never portrayed that Madara would have an hard time destroying the village in itself, what was portrayed was that Madara could never defeat Hashirama.

The Rinnegan is superior only if it is wielded by the one who awakened it. Can be seen in the difference between fake wielders (Nagato and Obito) and real wielders (Madara and Sasuke), in the first case it puts the user in the high/top tier while in the latter case it puts them literally in god tier.

The founders are clearly portrayed as the strongest shinobis in history except aliens and other God tiers, Nagato is not in the same playing field. You would need a very strange interpretation to get that Nagato is above them.

It's a common trope that later villains are stronger than previous ones.
Nagato was dispatched quickly, Kabuto claimed that Madara was his trump card and the strongest Edo, and the same Madara said that PS was his full power.
How does that support your point?

Edo Madara never fought really seriously, at best just for a brief moment against the Gokage (even then, he could have ended them at any moment with more mokuton spam, or whatever, when they were fighting the clones for example, he was literally watching the whole time) when he used PS or against Hashi for a bit.
Against Naruto (in a form that would stomp Nagato), Bee and Gai he literally used only wood dragon and watched as they struggled to free themselves.



> thats from an entirely different perspective. From 7 kilometers away, that building would obscure anything. only the mountain would be visible.



To me that building seems pretty high up. Regardless, for me it's settled that the diameter of the village is at best roughly 14km, if we wanna use the highest reasonable estimate.



> I dont even get your point here. I am saying that there are thousands of academy students at any one time. A chunin rate that low means the amount of genin is MASSIVE. Which is logical.



I'm saying that we saw how many genin there are and how many try the chunin exam, and they are not a lot (definitely not what you would expect from a massive city of millions).



> I dont think you have a full grasp on physics here. If i hit the top of a table, the force with travel down and split between its 4 legs. To deny that is ridiculous.
> 
> And only a fraction of Kyuubis TBB even hit Madara, SS and CST are solid forces, not blast waves.
> 
> In reality, if you think all calcs are just bogus because they can all be proven wrong by other calcs, what exactly are you using to judge the power of each attack?



Who denied that?
What i wrote is that an extremely small part of the energy is gonna go to the ground and thus cause destruction.
But from that alone there is literally no way to judge accurately the real power of the attack, because the percentage of energy transferred to the ground is unknown and so is the absolute amount needed to break PS (we have nothing else that broke PS to compare).


----------



## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

blk said:


> So i see we are in agreement that the whole thing is inconsistent.


Oh yeah.


blk said:


> The only thing left is to establish the best method to quantify the specific attack we want quantify, which is CST, and which sizes to pick.
> 
> To me, the obvious solution is to use Pain's arc images, sizes and ratios as much as possible (except the one in chapter 115 which is the only almost full Konoha shot we have). Getting numbers from other arcs is clearly gonna create even more problem than the already inconsistent Pain arc.
> And the Pain arc tells us that the village is nowhere near the 40/50km diameter, and that Gamabunta and Katsuyu are not 100m tall or more.
> My calculation, using the Pain's arc Hokage's heads, is a fairer estimation of CST's power since it doesn't inflate it with sizes coming from other arcs (more details below in direct response to your calc).


The problem is, you can use other methods with numbers from that same arc to get close to 80 kilometers. And the other issue is, you cant really disregard other arcs because in that arc itself the village differs in size tremendously. So the basis of "in the same arc" doesn't hold water as every arc differs.


blk said:


> There is no definitive proof that that is the FoD (would create insane inconsistencies within that same image with the Hokage's heads and Hokage's mansion), and again we ought not to inflate CST with sizes that are inconsistent with its own arc.


There is no definitive proof except a nearly IDENTICAL representation. Some other minor proof is that the forest of death is in training zone 44. the training zones are located all around the village. the Uchiha were forced into the upper right corner of the village where the training area is, that are was to be used for Uchiha training. so we know the training zones are right on the edge of the village.
I understand that there is no direct word saying that it is. But in chapter 115 where we see it clearly, the forest of death is still fresh in out minds. A few of the games have it in that area IIRC. it matches the design.
And yes, it comes with inconsistencies, but it was still stated to be 20 km. and a statement of size means thats how it is supposed to be received. Our opinions come last. 



blk said:


> Your point about economics and population falls flat when one considers that:
> 
> 1) Konoha is a military village first and foremost, since it was created as an alliance between Uchiha and Senju (and other clans after that) that were pretty much big mercenary groups. And since not many generations passed between the main story and founding era, the percentage of people in the military (i.e shinobi) was probably still extremely high.
> Your comparison with real world economics and military is flawed just because of this fact, and even more if one considers the fundamental differences between real world tech-based armies and a magic-based army and how in Konoha shinobis can and do live normal lives and do normal jobs when in peace times (already mentioned the examples, obviously they are non exhaustive but i'm just presenting this as a reasonable possibility, which shows how your argument is inconclusive).


My point is just supplementary. But, yes, it was made from like 7 total clans, but look at how big the village is now. WAYYYYYY bigger than before. that means other people MOVED to konoha. Shit, my city's population went up 80k in less than 10 years from people moving here.



blk said:


> 2) In chapter 115  you can see, especially up north, how there are other settlements outside of Konoha. Obviously these aren't empty and very unlikely to be unrelated to the village, therefore it's reasonable to think that there could be others around where people live.
> For another example the Uzumaki clan was of those allied to Konoha, yet the Uzumaki lived outside the village.
> So it's unclear whether all of Konoha's military is stationed within it or not, there is no definitive proof either way.
> And even if it was, the first point about an high percentage of military within the village still stands.


I understand what you are trying to say, Im just saying that there isnt much validity to it. It is simply factual that a population cannot sustain a high percentage of soldiers. I dont think the village has 10 mil personally, I personally think the fire country has that many people as a whole with Konoha being at 2 mil.



blk said:


> Ok, i thought you were saying that there were parts of the village not touched by CST or the debris.


Oh no no. I think there is 2 buildings behind this specific image of sakura but i cannot find it.


blk said:


> A crater is a background. You only proved that there are inconsistencies in how he draws the walls (which we agree on), but you didn't prove that it happens because he uses the narrow perspective.


The minato picture of kyuubi is a prime example of it.
Here is the overall point. the wall cannot be a decent supporting or debunking point because it is EXTREMELY inconsistent.


blk said:


> But at this point, regardless of that, it's undeniable that the walls are always very visible and the only reason why they weren't in the pics you used was because they weren't in that part of the village in the first place.


I get that, but the point is the same, the walls or rubbly are nearly the same height


blk said:


> Another proof coming directly from Pain's arc is the image you posted above (didn't remember about it) Link removed . In that scan, not only there aren't walls in the side where the bijuudama exploded (consistent with chapter 115's shot), but the walls on the other side can be seen very well.


I know, and its crazy that we can, that is the BIGGEST inconsistency in the entire manga. because they are on the opposite side of a fuckin mountain range. the wall should be microscopic. yet it isnt. That just further prooves the wall is far too randomn to use, you cant even see the hokage faces but you can see the wall??? its wild.


blk said:


> To me the rubble seem very apparent Link removed , Link removed . In the latter a bit less, but it's also because of lower resolution of that particular image.
> 
> Anyway, i assume you agree now that the walls are clearly visible from within the village, from one extreme to the other and from above. Which strongly implies the village is nowhere near 40km in diameter.


clearly? no. at timnes clearly for inconsistent reasons, yes.


blk said:


> Wait what anbu are you using? I'm using the tallest one in the upper left image Link removed . In the bottom image, he should be the third one starting from the right, tho i've realized that the calc in vsbattles didn't pick him but the fourth one from the right (which is much shorter than the third one and seems to be a woman, definitely not Kakashi like the calcer assumed, and therefore extremely unlikely to be 1.8m tall).


The males one. from the right, he is the second one. Tsunade in this pic is oddly drawn taller than everyone which we know isnt true.


blk said:


> Why are you using an ellipse? Seems more like a circle Link removed


because its a circle thats viewed at a different perspective making it appear as an ellipse.


blk said:


> Tho even if we used your 56.34m calculation, since in chapter 429 we can see the Hokage's heads have essentially that same length, we would still get a radius of 6.5km and therefore a diameter of 13km.
> Sounds good to me.


except if you use different things in the same arc i can get WAY bigger, hence why i used the lower end 46km not even the full 80 km you'd get from the forest of death so even though that is CLEARLY the forest of death i am still super low balling it.



blk said:


> Kyuubi > Gedo Mazo.


oh no no no. The Mazo is WAY stronger. Naruto 1v1 can fuck up kyuubi. Gamabunta held him down. Butterfly choji, probably strong enough to kill gamabunta in 1 hit, barely moved the Mazo. The Mazo survived Mountain sandwich by catching it casually. Even the early stage of the Juubi couldnt do that. Kyuubi was pushed out of the village by old hiruzen, his 2 old ass teammates, Torifu akimichi who is also old as fuck, and a rag tag group of shinobi. 2 division commanders aka Darui and Kitsuchi, Choza, butterfly choji, we all fuckin HANDLED by the Mazo

When the Mazo fought Naruto and co, it took the efforts of Kakashi locking a wrist, Gai holding a foot down and KCM Naruto+Gyuuki uppercutting the Mazo to simply knock it down. He was unharmed. even the raikiri lightning did nothing to his arm even though it cut V2 jinchuriki cloaks like butter. The Mazo is Much, much stronger than kyuubi.


blk said:


> It was never portrayed that Madara would have an hard time destroying the village in itself, what was portrayed was that Madara could never defeat Hashirama.


And Hashirama was logically taken down by a force lesser than the might of the strongest village in its near prime. Point is, Madara could not defeat Konoha of Narutos era.



blk said:


> The Rinnegan is superior only if it is wielded by the one who awakened it. Can be seen in the difference between fake wielders (Nagato and Obito) and real wielders (Madara and Sasuke), in the first case it puts the user in the high/top tier while in the latter case it puts them literally in god tier.


Thats not ever stated. Nowhere does it ever say that RInnegan is better than EMS only when the Uchiha awakens it.It only means they themselves have access to the rinnegans full power, aka the special move. nothing more.


blk said:


> The founders are clearly portrayed as the strongest shinobis in history except aliens and other God tiers, Nagato is not in the same playing field. You would need a very strange interpretation to get that Nagato is above them.


In *history*. Nagato is portrayed on the level of the GOD of the shinobi universe. Not just god of an era. You'd agree that Madara as got a title upgrade when he became the 2nd Sage of Six paths, right? So why is 3rd sage of six paths not equal to that? I understand what you


blk said:


> It's a common trope that later villains are stronger than previous ones.


And Nagato was someone who master the eyes above Madaras EMS, why is it weird to say he is stronger? The manga referred to him over and over again as an invincible god. 800 year old Fukasaku said no one could ever beat pain without knowing his secret. Nagato is ALSO a child of prophecy. I think, i could be wrong, the problem you have is it's hard to separate EMS Madara and Rinnegan madara. 


blk said:


> Nagato was dispatched quickly


After raping Bee and Naruto Kabuto handeled everything like a retard. If the Chameleon was still invisible, itachi would have also been caught in that trap and killed. It was CIS AND PIS that beat Nagato. and again, against 3 of the absolute strongest ninja ever.


blk said:


> Kabuto claimed that Madara was his trump card and the strongest Edo, and the same Madara said that PS was his full power.
> How does that support your point?


Kabuto never said he was his strongest Edo, he did say Nagato was his strongest Edo though. Trump card doesn't always mean strongest. and even still, that is Rinnegan Madara, not EMS Madara.



blk said:


> Edo Madara never fought really seriously, at best just for a brief moment against the Gokage (even then, he could have ended them at any moment with more mokuton spam, or whatever, when they were fighting the clones for example, he was literally watching the whole time) when he used PS or against Hashi for a bit.


Mokuton spam is wrecked by a Oonoki and tsunade colab so Madara really did need PS and hax chakra regen to win that fight casually.


blk said:


> Against Naruto (in a form that would stomp Nagato), Bee and Gai he literally used only wood dragon and watched as they struggled to free themselves.


You would have to ignore TWO direct statements from madara that he was trying to capture them as best as he could to say he wasnt trying.



blk said:


> I'm saying that we saw how many genin there are and how many try the chunin exam, and they are not a lot (definitely not what you would expect from a massive city of millions).


the problem is, we never saw 20k chunin, and we cant use part one numbers to disprove that.



blk said:


> Who denied that?
> What i wrote is that an extremely small part of the energy is gonna go to the ground and thus cause destruction.


Thats where you are wrong. in order to be hit 1000 times and still have plent of susano still up means most hits barely lost energ from damaging the susano mean nearly ALL the energy would flow through susano and into the ground.


blk said:


> But from that alone there is literally no way to judge accurately the real power of the attack, because the percentage of energy transferred to the ground is unknown and so is the absolute amount needed to break PS (we have nothing else that broke PS to compare).


 Im with you here for the most part, but for the sake of argument we should still give a best guess.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. And Kamui sounds like tears in space time, therefore relevancy?


Im not sure what you mean.


Nuttynutdude said:


> 2. Yes. That is true. But you keep forgetting that this isn't the chisel, its swinging the chisel and getting that result, plus pressure /= force. That's basic physics. A chisel with half the force of a hammer could break away metal when the hammer can't. They aren't comparable like that


no, not half the force. WAYYYY less. The PSI jumps up exponentially. when the same force is applied to far less surface area. Either way, the point remains the same. There is no actual way to calc the true level of the sword swing so there isnt a point in dwelling on it.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Except we actually see the jonin in the village when Hiruzen assigns them to academy students. And that 6000 number is based on the assumption that there are 3000 genin in konoha alone. So does that mean 99% of genin never make it to chunin? Duy was famously ridiculed for not making it to chunin. Assuming that the genin do it 5 years apart to not overwhelm the chunin exam, you'd still have dozens per exam, per village. The numbers just don't add up. And if they had thousands, why were there not thousands when the nine tails attacked?


You cant compare that to part 2 though. in part 2 we know they have 20k+ chuunin. So to say the numbers dont add up is to say Kishimoto is wrong and konoha doesnt have that many ninja that they are stated to have. You'd be debunking the mangas own statements.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Cairo has 19 million people with 19376 people per square kilometer... plus it is over 1000 square miles in area....


46km by 46km is 2116 square kilometers, converted to miles that is  816 square miles  so i dont see what your point is. Cairo has slightly bigger buildings so i took that into account.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Im not sure what you mean.


Because an attack looks like another one does not mean they have the same potency


kokodeshide said:


> no, not half the force. WAYYYY less. The PSI jumps up exponentially.


Thank you, reinforcing my point


kokodeshide said:


> There is no actual way to calc the true level of the sword swing so there isnt a point in dwelling on it.


No, but we can calc a lowball by trying to see how heavy the mountaintops are and find out how much force it would take to send them as high as they went.

And there's still the *air pressure, not the blade* part of it


kokodeshide said:


> in part 2 we know they have 20k+ chuunin.


Can you tell me where that quote is from?


kokodeshide said:


> Cairo has slightly bigger buildings so i took that into account.


slightly bigger buildings....just y'know, way over 2x, maybe over 3x the size of the largest buildings in Konoha....


----------



## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Because an attack looks like another one does not mean they have the same potency


I know, but you can make very good comparisons to similar attacks


Nuttynutdude said:


> Thank you, reinforcing my point


No. It means with a chisel you can use way less force to do the same thing.



Nuttynutdude said:


> No, but we can calc a lowball by trying to see how heavy the mountaintops are and find out how much force it would take to send them as high as they went.
> 
> And there's still the *air pressure, not the blade* part of it


Yeah, and that feat is calced at 200MT. Rightfully far below a TBB. its been done. I've done it, plenty others have as well.


Nuttynutdude said:


> Can you tell me where that quote is from?


War arc. 6 armies 80k ninja and samurai. 80k/=13,333 each section with an equal split.
mist and sand have by far the lowest amount of ninja so you cant assume they bought equal numbers to konoha. Stone lost so many ninja that they had to hire akatsuki. Only Kumo and Konoha are at good levels of military power. so im saying 20k as a rough estimation.



Nuttynutdude said:


> slightly bigger buildings....just y'know, way over 2x, maybe over 3x the size of the largest buildings in Konoha....


bro, look at some of the konha buldings again, they are fuckin HUGE. like dwarfing bunta huge. And again, 2x smaller fits with half the people lol.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 17, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I know, but you can make very good comparisons to similar attacks


Assuming they're of similar scale


kokodeshide said:


> No. It means with a chisel you can use way less force to do the same thing.


Which actually means it would be harder to use the air pressure created by said object to do anything, since it'll slice through the air instead of push it


kokodeshide said:


> Yeah, and that feat is calced at 200MT. Rightfully far below a TBB. its been done. I've done it, plenty others have as well.


You're still forgetting something... something I feel is very important...

Wind. That was the wind. Plus, that was a casual sword slash vs something that nearly killed Nagato


kokodeshide said:


> War arc. 6 armies 80k ninja and samurai. 80k/=13,333 each section with an equal split.
> mist and sand have by far the lowest amount of ninja so you cant assume they bought equal numbers to konoha. Stone lost so many ninja that they had to hire akatsuki. Only Kumo and Konoha are at good levels of military power. so im saying 20k as a rough estimation.


Assuming the great villages brought 80% of the Ninja, and that the Ninja were about 80% of the allied forces, then assuming Konoha and Kumo had 2x the amount of shinobi as the other villages, you come out to 14k. Assuming that only 1% of the entire village is a shinobi, you get 140k people. Even if you assume half a percent of all people in the village are shinobi, you are still 71x lower than your 10 million estimate


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 17, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> bro, look at some of the konha buldings again, they are fuckin HUGE. like dwarfing bunta huge. And again, 2x smaller fits with half the people lol.


Huge...you can clearly see the trees right up next to them. They are definitely not trees like Pacific Redwood or Giant Sequoia, being broadleaf trees. 

And seeing as Kid Naruto and Sasuke could run up those trees in a few seconds, I'd say they certainly aren't dozens upon dozens of feet tall.


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## kokodeshide (May 17, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Which actually means it would be harder to use the air pressure created by said object to do anything, since it'll slice through the air instead of push it


Ahhhh, i see what you are trying to get at. no, its a shockwave and it being thinner mean the sword can travel faster and make a stronger shockwave. regardless, Its unquantifiable.



Nuttynutdude said:


> You're still forgetting something... something I feel is very important...
> 
> Wind. That was the wind. Plus, that was a casual sword slash vs something that nearly killed Nagato


What do you mean something that nearly killed nagato?


Nuttynutdude said:


> Assuming the great villages brought 80% of the Ninja, and that the Ninja were about 80% of the allied forces, then assuming Konoha and Kumo had 2x the amount of shinobi as the other villages, you come out to 14k. Assuming that only 1% of the entire village is a shinobi, you get 140k people. Even if you assume half a percent of all people in the village are shinobi, you are still 71x lower than your 10 million estimate


13k x2 would be 26k. and that was only chuunin and Jonin. The genin stayed in the villages. so its more like 52 K at that point and to reliable sustain that you need a total poulation of 10 million, speaking puuuurely using economics.

Personally I think they have about 2 million and receive funding from the fire country to supplement themselves.



Nuttynutdude said:


> Huge...you can clearly see the trees right up next to them. They are definitely not trees like Pacific Redwood or Giant Sequoia, being broadleaf trees.
> 
> And seeing as Kid Naruto and Sasuke could run up those trees in a few seconds, I'd say they certainly aren't dozens upon dozens of feet tall.


 lol noooooooooo. Pacific redwood? i/ve always known them as california redwoods. anyway, Some of the trees in Naruto are so big you can barely see the ground from them. like in the forest of death. When kyuubi stood next to some buildings they were as tall as him, and he is fuckin huge.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Ahhhh, i see what you are trying to get at. no, its a shockwave and it being thinner mean the sword can travel faster and make a stronger shockwave. regardless, Its unquantifiable.


It is not quantifiable, but it is still worth taking into account that that was the shockwaves coming off the attack, not the actual attack. You can also not compare the destructive capabilities of a blunt force attack versus a point force attack


kokodeshide said:


> What do you mean something that nearly killed nagato?


It used so much of his chakra it nearly killed him while Madara, in a state that was weaker than the EMS that fought Hashirama, did the mountaintop slicing casually with a swing of his sword.


kokodeshide said:


> 13k x2 would be 26k. and that was only chuunin and Jonin. The genin stayed in the villages. so its more like 52 K at that point and to reliable sustain that you need a total poulation of 10 million, speaking puuuurely using economics.
> 
> Personally I think they have about 2 million and receive funding from the fire country to supplement themselves.


I accounted for the 2x. And you don't need a population of 10 million to sustain that. considering the shinobi seem to be a huge part of the economy, the only others you'd need are cooks, artisans, workers, and people for menial labour. The reason you'd need to have such a large population against the size of the military is because the military sucks up money, they don't make it. 


kokodeshide said:


> lol noooooooooo. Pacific redwood? i/ve always known them as california redwoods. anyway, Some of the trees in Naruto are so big you can barely see the ground from them. like in the forest of death. When kyuubi stood next to some buildings they were as tall as him, and he is fuckin huge.


Not all trees are the same size. We don't see any trees in the village anywhere near that size. 

Each of the stone faces were about the size of the Hokage's building, the largest in the village, in terms of height. We saw Boruto put a train car into the side of Naruto's, and it was relative in size to about 1/5 of Naruto's face.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 18, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> It is not quantifiable, but it is still worth taking into account that that was the shockwaves coming off the attack, not the actual attack. You can also not compare the destructive capabilities of a blunt force attack versus a point force attack


Its fine to take note of it, but you cant say its power is abobe something just off a note.

And you are right, we cant directly compare the 2. But i dont think anyone here is doing that.



Nuttynutdude said:


> It used so much of his chakra it nearly killed him while Madara, in a state that was weaker than the EMS that fought Hashirama, did the mountaintop slicing casually with a swing of his sword.


2 mountain tops cut casually. Our upwards of 30 mountains and miles of ground under them being thrown up so high you could see the curvature of the planet..... Yeah, a litte bit different level of an attack.
55 Teraton vs 200 megaton so to say its even remotely comparable is a bit crazy. A CT able to take 2 mountain and llaunch them would be so easy Nagato might not even break a sweat.


Nuttynutdude said:


> I accounted for the 2x. And you don't need a population of 10 million to sustain that. considering the shinobi seem to be a huge part of the economy, the only others you'd need are cooks, artisans, workers, and people for menial labour. The reason you'd need to have such a large population against the size of the military is because the military sucks up money, they don't make it.


80000/6 is 13,333. So even with your x2 you got to the base number. Without even adding in the Genin. you need thousands of other jobs types. And they money that the Shinobi make comes from outside, yes, but thats doesnt count for the equipment and years and years of training. administration fees etc etc. The village doesnt have any goods they trade from what we can tell. regardless, even if you assume everything is perfect to support what you are saying, the lowest you could possibly get is still over a million 


Nuttynutdude said:


> Not all trees are the same size. We don't see any trees in the village anywhere near that size.
> 
> Each of the stone faces were about the size of the Hokage's building, the largest in the village, in terms of height. We saw Boruto put a train car into the side of Naruto's, and it was relative in size to about 1/5 of Naruto's face.
> https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...village.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130422204914


Thats an anime pic lol. 
Either way the forest of death is proof enough itself that Konoha is far larger than what you think it is.


----------



## Nuttynutdude (May 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Its fine to take note of it, but you cant say its power is abobe something just off a note.
> 
> And you are right, we cant directly compare the 2. But i dont think anyone here is doing that.
> 
> ...


This has been going on for way too long and it's just going back and fourth at this point. Let's just agree to disagree and let this thread die lol


----------



## X III (May 25, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> AND in reality.


In your flawed interpretation of reality.


----------



## X III (May 25, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You think PS cannot be absorbed?


No.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 25, 2019)

X III said:


> In your flawed interpretation of reality.


Nope, actually I just triple checked my sources and ran the numbers again. It's reality.


----------



## X III (May 25, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Nope, actually I just triple checked my sources and ran the numbers again. It's reality.


Must've been in Madara's Genjutsu.


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## kokodeshide (May 25, 2019)

X III said:


> Must've been in Madara's Genjutsu.


Nope, had Deidara check with his Plot Kai Eye. Genjutsu-free zone.


----------



## X III (May 25, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Nope, had Deidara check with his Plot Kai Eye. Genjutsu-free zone.


Too bad he was also in one.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 25, 2019)

X III said:


> Too bad he was also in one.


Yup, but when he opens his eye it Negs it.


----------



## X III (May 25, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Yup, but when he opens his eye it Negs it.


Nahhhh. Deidara's got no countermeasures against mind control.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 25, 2019)

X III said:


> Nahhhh. Deidara's got no countermeasures against mind control.


More like Madaras got no countermeasures against sensual tongue lickings in his ear. on both sides.


----------



## X III (May 26, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> More like Madaras got no countermeasures against sensual tongue lickings in his ear. on both sides.


We've got a new lewdman in town.


Sorry. Lewdwoman*


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 30, 2019)

X III said:


> No.



Of course it can be absorbed.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jun 1, 2019)

Nuttynutdude said:


> Where exactly does he admit inferiority to Itachi? I remember him saying "Itachi's dead, I am free to attack the village now".
> That does not mean he was scared of Itachi. He promised Itachi he'd leave the village alone in payment for Itachi's loyalty. Itachi's stupidly useful, so why would Obito waste that ally when he could wait for Itachi's inevitable demise?





Nuttynutdude said:


> He said he'd be dead if Itachi knew everything about him. How do you think the entire Akatsuki would react if they knew he wasn't who he said he was? How would Nagato react if he'd been lied to this entire time? Obito is strong as fk but he's not taking on Itachi, Nagato, Kisame, and the rest of the Akatsuki alone




You are ignoring tons of details.

Obito wanted Konoha to be completely destroyed. Hence why he returned to the village after capturing the Nine tails from Kushina  to destroy the leaf instead of just taking it back so Nagato can seal it. Itachi forced him to lay off of Konoha for 16 years.








Obito nearly died to Amaterasu, a post mortem attack from Itachi. He was  clearly hit by it, and crying in pain. His counter to it wasn't immediate. Hence why he  said if Itachi knew everything about him, he would be dead. Itachi attacking Obito from the afterlife only gets one shot. In an actual fight he would get more opportunities to land the finishing blow.




Nuttynutdude said:


> Saying Koto will just gg anyone isn't based on anything. We heard it is super dangerous and saw it being used on someone who has less ninjutsu experience than might Guy. Obito was able to hold a perfect Jinchuriki under genjutsu for years and Nagato flat out has superior Dojutsu to Itachi, so saying Koto gg and writing it off isn't a good argument



Is this a troll? Koto is established to be the strongest genjutsu in existence prior to Infinite Tsykuyomi. Obito wanted it. Danzo coveted it. Shisui was feared by all.
Nagato and Obito get one shotted by it, period.




Nuttynutdude said:


> Obito was winning against much stronger enemies than Itachi was: Itachi was more or less on par with KCM1 Naruto, while Obito was winning against KCM2 Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Guy



False. Itachi wasn't even close to going all out against naruto, so no idea where you got that from. Both of them were holding back. Itachi didn't use any Ms techniques, no genjutsu, and was using his least used craft: taijutsu.

 Except Obito got tagged in that fight multiple times. Something he can't afford to do against Itachi. Totsuka one shots. Amaterasu already almost killed him by his own admission.  Itachi also has the Shadow Clone Body Replacement technique, which Obito can't see through. Obito would just warp away an exploding clone and that would be that. Your abc logic doesn't work.




kokodeshide said:


> That isn't true at all, as I said, Nagato ordered missions to Konoha. Both would have led to massive deaths if it wasn't for the fact that Kakuzu and Hidan were stopped before they reached the village and Itachi volunteered for the first mission.
> And Nagato doesn't give 2 fucks about what Obito wants, he even straight up explains a plan that is 100 percent NOT Infinite Tsukuyomi.
> Wrong. Itachi Volunteered! If he didn't take that moment, another team would have gone and fucked the village senseless. Only Itachi could have escaped that situation harmlessly, every other Akatsuki member group is massively destructive.




Not at all. Nagato sent one expedition to capture naruto because naruto happened to be in the village at the time. And Itachi was sent. Obito was aware of what was happening and had no reason to intervene. Nothing happened for three years. Kakazu and Hidan went to find jinchuriki and bounty. they would have collided with naruto obviously, but that can't be avoided forever. The point was Obito and Nagato could not do an all out assault on the hidden leaf, period. And said assault only came after Itachi's death. No point in arguing against canon. Itachi's job wasn't to protect every single life.




kokodeshide said:


> They had no need for Naruto, they couldnt seal kyuubi back in part one, or early part 2. Itachi literally wasted his time trying to capture Naruto. they would have had to hold onto him for 3 fuckin years before they could even seal him.



There is no reason why they couldn't hold him for 3 years. Look at Akatsuki's arsenal. It was already established that 12 year old naruto was no match for the Akatsuki. Itachi and or Obito could keep him in genjutsu for 3 years easily, and Nagato can impale him with the rinnegan rods for good measure.





kokodeshide said:


> To say the yata mirro and use it nature types to counter all the natures is 1 thing, to say it can counter a 5 natures combo at once is another. We have no idea how the yata mirror works. and you saying it is unbeatable goes against Itachis very own words, everything has a weakness. Even A3's invincible body had a weakness.
> 
> And unacceptable denial of canon would be to ignore that fact that sealing jutsu negs EVERYTHING. The phantom dragon seals itachi with his shield away without effort. Sealing jutsu was also able to extinguish the unextinguishable Amaterasu. Sealing jutsu>everything.
> And you are using a NLF to say Itachi could survive any attack. Could the Yata mirror survive a combo attack from Juubi jinchuriki Hagoromo, Hokage Naruto, TCM Toneri, Momoshiki and Kaguya all at once? If you believe that then you dont care about logic.



Dude, this is pure bias. The Yata mirror is backed by the longest living information specialist in the manga: Black Zetsu. In the manga, the shield changed its size and shape in response to attacks. It fought off multiple hydra snakes and deflected them. It can deflect multiple attacks at once. I don't give a dam about A3 having a weakness. The YM is not stated to have a weakness, nor was it ever shown to have a weakness, stay on topic. The mirror's *mechanic for invincibility* is the ability to change it's constitution and durability as needed to correspond to the attack. Comparing it to A3 doesn't make any sense at all. Because no matter how impressive his armor is, it has a fixed durability. It doesn't adapt.... and it was shown that his own spear can pierce it, so case closed. It's Not no limits fallacy if the shield adapts to each attack(s) it comes into contact with.




kokodeshide said:


> This is so fuckin stupid, im sorry, but please, spare me your unquantifiable trash theory on chakra sensing. It is inconsistent and typically only works in the cases of dense evil masses of chakra. but sometimes doesnt. so you cannot use that in this instance to reinforce your point, it is complete and utter nonsense. And itachi wasnt blind there at all. He could still see sasuke and see him well enough to direct a finger tap on his forehead. chakra sensing doesnt give him location details of his fuckin body parts. and you dare say im using headcanon.




It isn't inconsistent at all. And Itachi was absolutely blind , dude.  Look at his eyes at the end of the Hebi Sasuke fight and compare them to his eyes when he used Izanami. His eyes are completely white in both instances, and as such he was completely blind against Orochimaru and Sasuke. You just downplay his skill, no surprise at all. He knew where to tap Sasuke's forehead because of incredible spatial awareness and experience. It's that simple. This is the same guy repeatedly referred to as a genius from a young age by almost everyone who knows him. Read the manga plz.





kokodeshide said:


> You really think Kabuto is thinking that Itachi is hiding in the smoke with a GIANT FUCKIN SWORD THAT ONESHOTS??? Really? Why is Kabuto suddenly a genius when it's conveniet to your arguement? If he though Itachi had that kind of weapon, he would have separated himself and either flew or jumped up for CST. It makes not sense to just sit there, ESPECIALLY after launching a full blown offensive ass whooping. None of it makes any sense at all and you want to pretend it makes perfect sense so Itachi is boosted, i get why you are doing it, but its still fuckin ridiculous.




Kabuto is objectively a genius, the series made that clear in more than one way. His only weakness in that fight, and most of his edo tensei fights, is that he inherently and obviously doesn't have sufficient information to use the abilities of his edo tensei to the fullest.

Dude, on the other hand, you keep ignoring Nagato's fighting style.
In the jiraiya fight, he played defensively and waited for Jiraiya to attack after Jiraiya dropped a smoke bomb. He did the same thing against Kakashi, twice in fact. He did the same thing against naruto TWICE as well. Quit ignoring Nagato's fighting style. He waits for attacks to come out of smoke and THEN reacts.

You can strawman the chakra sensing argument all you want, its still valid. V4 Susan'o is a massive amount of emotion-expressing chakra. This is a canonical fact.

Nagato has enough intelligence to know that Naruto Bee and Itachi were hiding in the smoke. its common sense for crying out loud.

Thirdly, there is over THIRTY FEET of distance between himself and the smoke. A giant ass yellow blade angled downwards emerged from that smoke and you are sitting here seriously arguing that Nagato didn't see it when his frigging eyes are looking UPWARDs at the blade and the gourd. That's why I firmly believe you are biased. You are more than smart enough to see what happened on that panel. Nagato got blitzed. Naruto/bee/ and the smokescreen had nothing to do with it. Even if he couldn't sense the blade,* he could see it with his eyes*, end of story.  The limits of Nagato's reflexes were shown.



kokodeshide said:


> So you ignore Orochimaru splitting a snake off. Got it. Canon denial. Kunshina was stabbed through he body in a way worse way and was peachy, after being dead from losing a bijuu AND giving birth. Nagato, a FAR superior Uzumaki fresh from daining a full V2 Jin who can make his body mechanical to the point he can survive in pieces, has absolutely 0 issues with a sword to the chest. literally all he needs is a little chakra. Or step into hell realm and fix himself right up.
> 
> And look, you are saying im bias because im saying EDO NAGATO SURVIVES A KNIFE THROUGH THE CHEST. How the fuck is that biased? please tell me. Are edos fucked killable all of a sudden? since when? This is an example of you building an enemy when THERE ISNT ONE. You are painting me in a negative light to make yourself feel better.



 Bias. Nagato would get skewed and dismembered. Shurado gave into Kakashi's raikiri + Choji's punch. It isn't invincible. Nagato's shurado is stronger obviously, but it doesn't matter.  Totsuka can simply bisect Nagato and that's that.  I am not painting you in a negative light. I am painting the bias in a negative light. I have said more than once that you are one of the most intelligent people here, and in fact, even among all the people I have met in my life.... you are clearly college educated +++ and are an intelligent individual.The bias issue is something that can be fixed.

Nagato doesn't survive because Totsuka can seal him away. Whenever Itachi has used that blade, the opponent was sealed away. Itachi literally told sasuke " Anything else" After he connected the blade to Oro.  He knows that the blade is a OHKO. Black zetsu knew. And Orochimaru himself knew. Even Against Nagato, the blade is an instant victory because Kabuto immediately lost control. Itachi then said  "any last words". He wanted Nagato to have a final conversation with Naruto before sealing him away.  Just because the sealing process is slow doesn't make it counterable.


kokodeshide said:


> re you seriously saying that because oros snake separation is not him becauseit died to Amaterasu? are you serious? Orochimaru can survive in a fuckin curse seal yet he can split a piece of himself off of his body? Canon denial at its FINEST.



The snakes were independent units.... Orochimaru and his final hydra got sealed because they were both directly hit  by the blade. the snakes on the tail of the hydra weren't. The snakes =/= Orochimaru lol. At least two of those snakes escaped, and one died too amaterasu. Not characteristic of Orochimaru at all, especially since we know Orochimaru had to be revived later on through one of his hocruxes.
Itachi, Obito, and Zetsu were all fully aware of Orochimaru's abilities yet they all said that Totsuka sealed him away. Databook says the same thing. The fact you argue against canon shows the bias, smh.


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jun 1, 2019)

QUOTE="kokodeshide, post: 60128356, member: 119307"]Anime isnt canon. Nagato doesnt even know he was hit till AFTER he was hit. Meaning the Kunai landed and nearly the same time. All it means is Itachi is faster than Bee, which we already know. Its all about perfect timing. and again, this is Kabuto, not Nagato reacting, we have no clue if Kabuto is even able to handle multiple targets at once. He even forgot Itachi was even there. Kabuto was the most incompetent person in the whole series in the body of Nagato and you are acting like this is prime nagato with full capabilities.
Its literally like if Sasuke beats edo Itachi when Kabuto is controlling him but Kabuto forgets Itachi can see chakra with the sharingan, cant summon susano like Nagato couldnt summon the Mazo. but still used Amaterasu and basic genjutsu. But uses tsukuyomi not for 3 days, but 3 minutes. Like Kabuto using CT so low to the ground unlike how pain used it like 100 km up in the air against Naruto. Then people parade around saying Sasuke>Itachi without aknowledging the fuckin nerfs Kabuto gave him.[/QUOTE]


Except Kabuto can't nerf Nagato's reflexes. Those are fixed, and they couldn't react to Totsuka.  And Kabuto didn't forget about Itachi my man, he said on panel he prepared the shared vision for him. Your bias knows no limit here....



kokodeshide said:


> Kaguya never said that sooooo yeah.
> 
> and Black zetsu was one of the weakest Akatsuki members, I value Obitos words on power over his. You dont really think that Black zetsu would have delayed Kaguyas revial simply because Itachi was alive, do you? Are you saying Kaguya loses to Itachi? If not, your invincible BS is fuckin irrelevant FLUFF.



Bro.... are you serious? Itachi stomps the living hell out of Kaguya. She is highly inexperienced compared to a genius who literally accelerated through the ninja ranks faster than essentially everyone else, and she can't deal with his Yata or Totsuka so her advantage in physical stats is also meaningless. And don't give me that nonsense about Black zetsu being weak, terrible argument. He himself knows he is weak, he isn't a combat type. He is an information type though, so nice try. He is completely credible in gauging the strength of others because that's what he does for a living. He enjoys watching fights, read the manga .  I don't have to be as good as Muhammed Ali to know that he would slap 99 percent of the world in boxing when he was alive and in his prime. And his statements are backed by Itachi's feats as well.




kokodeshide said:


> No, debate is limited in your method of debate. In a REAL debate your issue is easily solved. a rock is a rock unless proved otherwise. you cant say, "well you cant prove that it is a different kind of life". that isnt a fuckin point. I dont have to then science the fuck out of that to disprove it. lack of disproof is not proof on your part.
> I*f i claim CST>SS, that is because, with what we see, and all the information we have, CST has more energy output, UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. *That is how it works. you cant say that simply because its full length is unknown that i cant say it is weaker. Yes, yes i can, cause from what WE CAN SEE, it is not as powerful. You could pretend the valley snakes allllll the way through the earth for 200k miles all day, until YOU can PROVE the length, we can ONLY go with what we see.
> Just like how if i have a video showing you at a bar at 630 i can say you were there. you cant use a defense like well show me a video of me at my house, if you cant, you cant say i wasnt actually at my house at 630. I dont fuckin need to, i have other sufficient evidence.



Except I never used that logic... The issue was always your bolded statement
You never proved that CST >SS. The issue is again,  Kishimoto showed the full size of Nagato's crater, but kept the full length of the VOTE a mystery. That is the difference. The reason why you needed to "science the fuk" out of the argument is because I needed proof that CST >SS. You keep trying to say I used the disprove argument but I never did. I asked you for proof of your claim. Nothing more nothing less.

I'm sorry, didn't know that you have a serious health issue and that your time is actually running out.... I am sympathetic about that and I hope you are seeing a doctor/hospital because like I said, the world needs more people like you. But the  bias must stop though.



kokodeshide said:


> Here fuck it, you want more science shit?
> 2 MAJOR reasons madaras meteor is moving at hypersonic speeds.
> 1. When a meteor hits the ground it creates a circular crater, NO MATTER THE ANGLE, you might think that is weird. if it came in sideways it should make an angled crater, but no, every single crater on earth and the moon is a circle, why? Because, when moving at such a high rate of speed, upon impact, the bonds between atoms literally break from the sheer kinetic energy that the meteor explodes in the ground causing an explosion and therefor a circular crater. Why does this disprove Madaras meteor being massively hypersonic? Because when one metear hits the other, it literally only splits it in half. It doesnt explode at all. Meaning, it wasnt moving very fast at all.
> 2. The fuckin speed. Its generally accepted that space begins at around 100km up. A meteor falling at true reentry speeds would like i said, be burning, and also travel that 100 km in FOUR SECONDS. from where it hits the clouds, assuming they are at the max height of nimbus clouds, 12km, it would take only half a second to hit the ground. Unless you assume ever single little action they did happened withing that half second, the meteor is slow. There are several conversations, actions, reactions further actions that happened. Not under half a second. and from the point Oonoki actually reached the meteor, from that distance it would have hit the earth in .04 seconds. these are for the slower meteors too. not even a fast meteor which it would have had to of been considering you all think he pulled it from space.
> ...




Bro, the  problem is that Madara and his susano'o were COMPLETELY OBLITERATED by the meteor meanwhile Ohnoki was injured but fine.  Kishimoto is not a perfect writer, if you think he is then you need to reread the manga. He makes mistakes, and Ohnoki surviving that meteor was one of them.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Perhaps you should listen to your own advice. Last time a spiritual attack which could attack was shown in the manga, it was just chakra (Shikamaru vs Tayuya). Spiritual energy = one half of chakra and if you read the material you'd see that spiritual energy cannot be manifested without some physical energy... which makes it chakra.



You missed the part where I said TOOL. Ninja tools cannot be absorbed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 5, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You missed the part where I said TOOL. Ninja tools cannot be absorbed.



Except Susanoo's items are part of it... it is chakra and we know how "spiritual attacks/items" work. They'll be absorbed, quite easily, in fact.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 7, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Susanoo's items are part of it... it is chakra and we know how "spiritual attacks/items" work. They'll be absorbed, quite easily, in fact.



No it isn't, and no it wont. A sword of kusangai isn't chakra.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No it isn't, and no it wont. A sword of kusangai isn't chakra.



They are. 

The sword of kusanagi is an actual sword, not a chakra item like Totsuka and Yata.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 9, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> They are.
> 
> The sword of kusanagi is an actual sword, not a chakra item like Totsuka and Yata.




Dude, this isn't up for debate. 


The Totsuka Blade is explicitly stated to be a Sword of Kusanagi. Nowhere is it stated to be made of chakra, you literally made that up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Dude, this isn't up for debate.
> 
> 
> The Totsuka Blade is explicitly stated to be a Sword of Kusanagi. Nowhere is it stated to be made of chakra, you literally made that up.



You realise you posted a page of Totsuka literally looking like a chakra sword. 

Now, the DB3 said that Totsuka and Yata comes with Susanoo.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 9, 2019)

No 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You realise you posted a page of Totsuka literally looking like a chakra sword.
> 
> Now, the DB3 said that Totsuka and Yata comes with Susanoo.




When Manga and Data book contradict I go with the Manga. Those weapons didn't come with Susano'o but are rather wielded by Itachi's Susano'o, there is a difference. The proof is Orochimaru and Black Zetsu recognized the weapons and were both unaware that Itachi had come to poessess them. Meaning they existed before Itachi revealed it, and people were looking for the weapons.  The Totsuka Blade is said to be formed from a *liquid * from inside the jar and it is then shaped into a blade. Nothing at all alludes to it being chakra. You saying it looks like chakra isn't any proof that it is.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 9, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> No
> 
> 
> 
> When Manga and Data book contradict I go with the Manga. Those weapons didn't come with Susano'o but are rather wielded by Itachi's Susano'o, there is a difference. The proof is Orochimaru and Black Zetsu recognized the weapons and were both unaware that Itachi had come to poessess them. Meaning they existed before Itachi revealed it, and people were looking for the weapons.  The Totsuka Blade is said to be formed from a *liquid * from inside the jar and it is then shaped into a blade. Nothing at all alludes to it being chakra. You saying it looks like chakra isn't any proof that it is.



Manga and databook don't contradict each other in this case though... Susanoo also existed before Itachi did, as did Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. This is how all those jutsu got their reputations. 

The manga, databook and the imagery allude to it being chakra.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jun 9, 2019)

This thread AGAIN?

Wow...

I swear I see this shit pop up again once every 2 weeks...

Thread should have ended at the first person to point out Nagato has no feats on Founder level



WorldsStrongest said:


> V4 Susanoo claps
> 
> PS claps harder
> 
> ...


Ah

Would ya look at that

It was me


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## X III (Jun 9, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This thread AGAIN?
> 
> Wow...
> 
> ...


I thought I was the only one.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 10, 2019)

JayK said:


> ck



Lacking a physical form =/= made of chakra, nice try though.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Manga and databook don't contradict each other in this case though... Susanoo also existed before Itachi did, as did Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. This is how all those jutsu got their reputations.
> 
> The manga, databook and the imagery allude to it being chakra.



Not at all. You haven't addressed my argument, and in fact ignored it. So concession accepted.  Black Zetsu and Orochimaru were searching for Yata and Totsuka before Itachi revealed it, so it couldn't have orginated with *Itachi's Susano'o. *


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> Lacking a physical form =/= made of chakra, nice try though.



That indicates chakra... do you remember Tobi's explanation of Yin and Yang?



> Not at all. You haven't addressed my argument, and in fact ignored it. So concession accepted.  Black Zetsu and Orochimaru were searching for Yata and Totsuka before Itachi revealed it, so it couldn't have orginated with *Itachi's Susano'o. *



I addressed your argument, you're just ignoring every counterargument you're given and posting irrelevant walls of text.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 12, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That indicates chakra... do you remember Tobi's explanation of Yin and Yang?
> 
> 
> 
> I addressed your argument, you're just ignoring every counterargument you're given and posting irrelevant walls of text.




I remember his explanation well and it doesn't relate to the topic at hand. Lacking a physical form doesn't mean its made of chakra. Chakra is not the only thing that can lack a physical form.



You haven't addressed my argument in the slightest.

Chakra is the manifestation of the combo of a person's physical and mental energy. Totsuka is a *tool* that was found by Itachi, so it's not a manifestation of his chakra. It's also explictly stated to be a* liquid*, never stated to be chakra. Nice troll though, because I haven't posted any wall of text, just small, concise and accurate paragraphs.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2019)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I remember his explanation well and it doesn't relate to the topic at hand. Lacking a physical form doesn't mean its made of chakra. Chakra is not the only thing that can lack a physical form.



Spiritual energy cannot manifest without physical energy: it is chakra.



> You haven't addressed my argument in the slightest.



I did, if you read the posts you would know that.



> Chakra is the manifestation of the combo of a person's physical and mental energy. Totsuka is a *tool* that was found by Itachi, so it's not a manifestation of his chakra. It's also explictly stated to be a* liquid*, never stated to be chakra. Nice troll though, because I haven't posted any wall of text, just small, concise and accurate paragraphs.



Totsuka wasn't found by Itachi according to the databook. I guess Sasuke found those bow and arrows and Madara found those holy swords.

Evidently you have a different understanding of what concise means compared to the norm.


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## Santoryu (Jun 12, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Spiritual energy cannot manifest without physical energy: it is chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where is the statement?


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jun 12, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Spiritual energy cannot manifest without physical energy: it is chakra.



Nice to know, completely irrelevant to the topic at hand




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I did, if you read the posts you would know that.



Nope, you have yet to address the topic at hand




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Totsuka wasn't found by Itachi according to the databook. I guess Sasuke found those bow and arrows and Madara found those holy swords.



And we have come full circle.  I showed you a scan of Orochimaru/Zetsu mentioning that they were searching for the blade. How poor is your reading comprehension? I don't give a dam about sasuke and Madara because their weapons are explicitly stated to be made from their Susano'o chakra.

Totsuka and Yata weren't originally apart of Itachi's susano'o, so concession accepted.

And don't lie to me, troll, I am fully aware of  the times when I write huge walls of texts, and this isn't one of them.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 12, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Where is the statement?



Which one in particular?



ThirdRidoku said:


> Nice to know, completely irrelevant to the topic at hand



Why is it irrelevant?



> Nope, you have yet to address the topic at hand



Already addressed, I'm still waiting for an adequate counterargument. 



> And we have come full circle.  I showed you a scan of Orochimaru/Zetsu mentioning that they were searching for the blade. How poor is your reading comprehension? I don't give a dam about sasuke and Madara because their weapons are explicitly stated to be made from their Susano'o chakra.



No such statements were made about Sasuke and Madara's Susanoo. Oro/Zetsu said that those items cannot be found; DB3 said those come with Susanoo which explains why they could not be found.

Totsuka and Yata weren't originally apart of Itachi's susano'o, so concession accepted.



> And don't lie to me, troll, I am fully aware of  the times when I write huge walls of texts, and this isn't one of them.



"At times" is an understatement. But you're showing improvement re being concise.


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## X III (Jun 12, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> DB3 said those come with Susanoo which explains why they could not be found.


Scan?


----------



## ThirdRidoku (Jun 12, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why is it irrelevant?




Because you keep bringing up all these facts about chakra when the basis of my entire argument *is that that there is no evidence at ALL that Totsuka/Yata are chakra constructs.* The blade is stated to be made out of liquid and to lack a physical form, full stop. Lacking a physical form means it's intangible. But nowhere is it stated to be made of chakra, which is the fusion of a PERSON's mental and spiritual energy.











Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> "At times" is an understatement. But you're showing improvement re being concise.



Except my goal wasn't to be concise nor am I required to be concise. Listing down important details that are important for my argument increase the word count, and it's worth it. When I keep things short, all it does is extend the amount of posts in the discussion. There is no difference in the long run. Let's see you write a ten thousand word thesis with good supporting evidence for a completing college major while being "concise". I'm being concise here because there isn't a hefty amount of details I need to use to support my claim in this instance.






Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Oro/Zetsu said that those items cannot be found; DB3 said those come with Susanoo which explains why they could not be found.




You are straight up lying, it's not even funny. The manga clearly states that Oro and Zetsu were looking for said items for a long time, and they were surprised to see that said artifacts were in Itachi's possession. How the hell can they be looking for items/have knowledge on special  items that they DIDN'T KNOW ITACHI HAD* yet at the same time also originated with Itachi*?????  Your points don't make a lick of sense here.

Let me say this again so you understand
Itachi got his susano'o when he was 14 years old. If he had use Yata and Totsuka prior to his battle with Hebi Sasuke, then Zetsu and Orochimaru wouldn't be surprised to see that he had it. That means they saw the weapons for the first time in Itachi's ownership during that battle, yet at the SAME TIME, they both had knowledge on said weapons and what they can do, and explicitly stated that they were LOOKING FOR IT. The fact that they were looking for it combined with the fact that they are surprised Itachi had it means that all three characters were searching for said weapons, but Itachi simply found it first.

Comparing it to Sasuke and Madara is just dishonest, because we have seen that Susano'o generates weapons to fight on the user's behalf, and those weapons are chakra constructs.


Not to mention, we have clearly seen what Itachi's *Susano'o generated Sword* looks like:





I triple dare you to lie to me and say that this tanto blade is Totsuka. I'll wait. Show me where the gourd is, show me why the blade is completely different in shape too, and where the liquid is.


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## X III (Jun 12, 2019)

I gotta side with @ThirdRidoku here. There's no proof that the Totsuka Blade is made of Chakra, outside of appearances. The blade is clearly stated to be made of alcohol in the Third Databook, so that's how it should be treated like. 

And going by Orochimaru/Zetsu's statements, the Totsuka Blade didn't originate with Itachi's Susanoo. Itachi found it.


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