# Official, Russia invasion of Ukraine, not just Crimea - Part Drunk



## Tazmo (Mar 28, 2014)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*


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## ExoSkel (Mar 28, 2014)

*Official, Russia invasion of Ukraine, not just Crimea*

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-russia-and-ukraine-ready-forces-live-updates

Live updates

The parliament just gave a green light to all Russian troops to converge and move into Ukraine territories. Russian soldiers in Crimea is now officially taking over and claiming the region as Federation.

Russian troops attempting to take over Ukrainian military bases in Crimea


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## The Faceless Man (Mar 28, 2014)

Fix the Tazmo bot !


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## walkerandarazu (Mar 28, 2014)

All bases in Crimea have Russian flags on them as of today, so occupation of Crimea is over I guess. Now for counter back/Tatars annexing part of it for themselves and going independent. Oh but wait, there's no such thing as a Referendum in Russia, it isn't old Ukraine...


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## Doge (Mar 28, 2014)

Putin's just mad he can't have the Soviet Union back, he already knows the only countries he can take over now are poverty stricken.


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## Golden Circle (Mar 28, 2014)

First page GET.

Russia forever.


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## Amanda (Mar 29, 2014)

Dat new thread. 

They say west and Russia might give a new shared proposal for solving the crisis in near future? And Russia says it's wish is to turn Ukraine into a federation. (Oh Russia, as if it was your business to decide that...)

Also CIA says the Russian troops officially "practicing" near the Ukrainian border haven't done anything of the like.


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## Amanda (Mar 29, 2014)

A Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet got , who was Putin's economic policy advisor between 2000 and 2005 (he now works in USA). He said some interesting things... I try to translate the gist of it:



> - The punishments against Russia are counter-productive, because they seem to verify Putin's world view: the west is an enemy, that tries to encircle and weaken Russia. It also seems to prove to the common Russians that Putin has been right all these years.
> 
> - The leaders of the west don't understand Putin's mentality, and that's why they don't understand what they're dealing with. Merkel said Putin is out of touch with reality, but it's them who are out of touch with Putin's reality, his logic and his intentions.
> 
> ...


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## Mael (Mar 29, 2014)

So Putin is like the CCP, built off historical butthurt.


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## Mider T (Mar 29, 2014)

Gonna be an interesting summer.


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## Amanda (Mar 29, 2014)

Many comparisons have been made between current Russia and the 30's Germany. One obvious parallel: 

German empire > humiliating defeat > the weak Weimar republic > wish to wash away the national shame and bring back former glory. 

Russian empire/Soviet Union > humiliating defeat > the weak Russia of Yeltsin > wish to wash away the national shame and bring back former glory.

Germany looked down upon the Weimar republic and longed for the 
reich. Russia looks down upon what it was in the 90's and longs for the Soviet/imperial days.


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## Agmaster (Mar 29, 2014)

curious...If Russia expanded without 'victims' wouldn't they still get villified?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2014)

Agmaster said:


> curious...If Russia expanded without 'victims' wouldn't they still get villified?


This is what we call Appeasement, Agamaster. It didn't work to contain Nazi Germany, and it won't contain Russia.


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## Amanda (Mar 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> This is what we call Appeasement, Agamaster. It didn't work to contain Nazi Germany, and it won't contain Russia.




True. Though when it comes to Nazi Germany / Russia parallels, I think here's one difference. Hitler _wanted_ war with the other big guys. At least the war with Soviet Union was already decided; it was his great mission to get Lebensraum from the east. Whatever west did about those smaller countries, whether they were sacrificed to Germany or not, the outcome was all the same: war. But I don't think Putin wants war with USA or western Europe. He only wants back those little countries on his border, one way or another. So the western countries do this time have the chance to keep their own asses out of direct military conflict - if they choose to sacrifice the pawns.


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## Illairen (Mar 29, 2014)

Darth vader runs as president of ukraine. No joke, he`s been nominated by the internet party there.

LoL. 

In Germany he would totally get my vote.


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## Hozukimaru (Mar 29, 2014)

Indeed. And the balance of powers is very different. Correct me If I'm wrong but the outcome of a war against Russia is much more certain than the outcome of the war was back then...


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## Amanda (Mar 29, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> Indeed. And the balance of powers is very different. Correct me If I'm wrong but the outcome of a war against Russia is much more certain than the outcome of the war was back then...




It is. That's one reason why the talks about WW3 are out place. Russia's might as of today isn't comparable to what Germany's was. (And Germany too bit on more than they could swallow with Soviet Union.) To my understanding, their scare effect comes from them not being weak enough to beat without damage to the other combatant too, and possessing the mentality to not to give up when sense tells you to. Not to mention, they're a nuclear power, and I'm not comfortable thinking what Putin might do if Russia was beaten to pulp.


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## walkerandarazu (Mar 29, 2014)

Illairen said:


> Darth vader runs as president of ukraine. No joke, he`s been nominated by the internet party there.
> 
> LoL.
> 
> In Germany he would totally get my vote.





The UIP has reportedly paid the $225,000 fee to register Vader as a presidential candidate. What's more, Vader has demanded a plot of land to park his space ship, according to the AFP. 

Say what ? Does the guy really wants to win?

Well at least shows the level of Democracy in Ukraine. You wouldn't be able to pull this one even in America or USA even if you would legaly register and pay for it. Don't even think about it in North Korea. You'll be shot for only planing to candidate yourself.

Anyone thinking Russians are celebrating with drinking vodka, while the rest of world keeps thinking about will they or not attack some more?


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## Amanda (Mar 31, 2014)

> Darth Vader, or at least someone who dresses up like him, has announced he is running for the presidency of Ukraine.
> 
> The Star Wars character who has sent chills through generations of children has been chosen as the candidate to represent the Ukrainian Internet Party (UIP).
> 
> ...





That last quote. Somebody's making fun of Putin... 

In more serious news, Russia is pulling some of its troops from the Ukrainian border. 



> Nato insiders believe that Russia has some 40,000 troops massed near its border with eastern Ukraine.
> 
> So if a battalion-size force is being withdrawn - say some 500 to 700 men - then that will hardly alter Russia's capabilities.
> 
> ...



BBC


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## Hozukimaru (Mar 31, 2014)

*Ukrainian Internet Party
*


> The political power tends to create attractive investment conditions in Ukraine and reach a new level of economic development and technology, its purpose is:
> 
> computerization of the entire country
> elimination of bureaucracy in its negative sense
> ...



Green for good things. Red for bad. Yellow for questionable or things I can't undestand.
Progressive tax>flat tax like they're suggesting.
VAT should only be abolished for necessary goods like food. Luxury goods should have a VAT. Progressive tax for land is also good.
Not sure what "establishment of offshore zones in Ukraine" means.
I'd also say they shouldn't leave FATF. Even if it doesn't really benefit them, they should try to be friends with the west, especially now with these recent events...


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## walkerandarazu (Mar 31, 2014)

Russians withdrawing is huge BS. Lol 500 or 700 were withdrew out of 40k 

Wasn't it 200k actually? 

It works on public, who doesn't look on numbers. In Russian TV I bet some channels don't even mention the number.


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## Mael (Mar 31, 2014)

Honestly this really does look like Putin is giving a massive middle finger to the EU and wants to carve out his post-Soviet sphere of influence.  That's all there is to it.  Credit his testicular fortitude but honestly it now gives a huge boost to proponents of the Keystone XL pipeline along with further paint the RusChi combo as the biggest asshole and asshole-enablers for some time and no you may not use Israel as some effective counter given the comparative body counts/actions.


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## Amanda (Mar 31, 2014)

Yes, the forces withdrawn were nominal. It remains to be seen to whom that message was supposed to be sent, and on which intent. 



Mael said:


> further paint the RusChi combo as the biggest asshole and asshole-enablers for some time




I wouldn't even be surprised if Putin wanted to be seen like that...


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## Mael (Mar 31, 2014)

^He probably does.  He already foments the Russian attitude that the world is out to get them and they're the most proverbially misunderstood people since the Imperial Japanese.


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## Pliskin (Mar 31, 2014)

I hope our western investors take note and finally start seeing the risks of outsourcing to dictatorial countries like RussChi, where stability depends on the whims of a giant manchild.

Seriously, Siemens and friends are scared as shit right now, since their Russian properties have become a playing chip in this Neo-Cold war.


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## walkerandarazu (Apr 1, 2014)

Some gun fighting happened yesterday in Kiev? And parlament voted 250 out of 440 to take away guns given to volunteers. Noone voted against, 40 didn't vote and the rest wasn't arround to vote.
Also Yarosh - leader of right wings seems like will be not allowed into Presidential elections.

So they're letting some Darth Vader guy to participate and they prohibit this guy. They're really scared that people might just vote for him, huh? 

Actually half/or all of this might be just April fools thing. The only non April fools thing is that it's actually snowing in Moscow today.


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## Darth Xanatos (Apr 1, 2014)

Darth Vader has to become the president of ukraine. This will be the beginning of the Empire in real life. I`d gladly join the stormtrooper corps   

May the force be with him.


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## Undertaker (Apr 1, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Some gun fighting happened yesterday in Kiev? And parlament voted 250 out of 440 to take away guns given to volunteers. Noone voted against, 40 didn't vote and the rest wasn't arround to vote.
> Also Yarosh - leader of right wings seems like will be not allowed into Presidential elections.



New government wants to protect its power and stabs its revolution buddies in the back. How typical.


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## Saishin (Apr 4, 2014)

*Stop tantrums and practise some yoga, Russia tells US*



> Sergei Rybakov, Russia?s deputy foreign minister, says the US' 'childish tantrums and tears' will not change Russia's annexation of Crimea
> 
> America's leaders should stop throwing ?childish tantrums? over the annexation of Crimea and instead ?do yoga?, a Russian official said on Thursday, in a caustic intervention in the confrontation between Moscow and Washington.
> 
> ...


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Apr 4, 2014)

I assume Russia didn't simply take advantage of an organic uprising in Crimea and Ukraine, but the way they're responding to criticism is better than the way the US ever handles anything. Hooray for our leaders getting drunk on wealth and privilege!


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

Okay then how about the US just places that missile shield right back where it belongs?

Then we'll see the Muscovite whining ad nauseum.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Apr 4, 2014)

mael stop throwing tantrums i think you need to practice the Eka Pada Sirsasana pose


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 4, 2014)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> I assume Russia didn't simply take advantage of an organic uprising in Crimea and Ukraine, but the way they're responding to criticism is better than the way the US ever handles anything. Hooray for our leaders getting drunk on wealth and privilege!





Mael said:


> Okay then how about the US just places that missile shield right back where it belongs?
> 
> Then we'll see the Muscovite whining ad nauseum.


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## Drums (Apr 4, 2014)

russians saying it like it is


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 4, 2014)

Maybe Putin could teach Obama Judo


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## Megaharrison (Apr 4, 2014)

Tantrum = invading a country because they won't be your bitch anymore


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## Tony Lou (Apr 4, 2014)

Russia is fucking boss.


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

Luiz said:


> Russia is fucking boss.





Megaharrison said:


> Tantrum = invading a country because they won't be your bitch anymore



Pretty much what Mega said.

My God the Putin apologism is astouding in this Cafe.


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## Gunners (Apr 4, 2014)

*laughing*.


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## baconbits (Apr 4, 2014)

Russia is basically putting its fingers in our noses and the US is helpless to do anything about it.


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

baconbits said:


> Russia is basically putting its fingers in our noses and the US is helpless to do anything about it.



Well if we do, we risk another war.  It sucks, because Russia knows this and Russia also knows it won't win doing it but flaunts when it can be a shithead (and watch the leftists here and outside go bananas in dick-riding Putin).  For once I sympathize with American politicians because really...what else can be done aside from armed confrontation over a region that we have no full-fledged alliance or interest in?  It's not Japan or South Korea.

The second boots hit Finland or any other region known to be EU or protected by NATO, then it's on.  All this nationalism is puffery at its finest.


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## Seto Kaiba (Apr 4, 2014)

Mael said:


> Pretty much what Mega said.
> 
> My God the Putin apologism is astouding in this Cafe.



I think when many people consider it, they wouldn't want any western leader to be anything like him. He's a spectacle when looking from the outside, leaders like that don't tend to be so entertaining when you're in their sphere of influence.


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

He's entertaining you while preparing for a bullet to enter the back of your skull.  Yet leftists never see that much like how Chomsky apologized for Mao, Pol Pot, and so on.


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## Seto Kaiba (Apr 4, 2014)

Mael said:


> He's entertaining you while preparing for a bullet to enter the back of your skull.  Yet leftists never see that much like how Chomsky apologized for Mao, Pol Pot, and so on.



Never said he was trustworthy. He's clearly not. Yet people get swept up in the hype around him.


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Never said he was trustworthy. He's clearly not. Yet people get swept up in the hype around him.



I know you never said that.  I'm just talking about the silly leftists here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2014)

...and we haven't parked a Carrier Fleet in the Black Sea because...?


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## Nordstrom (Apr 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...and we haven't parked a Carrier Fleet in the Black Sea because...?



Because striking first is a horrible idea?

I just don't get what's the problem though. We have no complaints from within Crimea (and Russia is many things, but they don't suppress dissent much) so I say just let them be. If people ask for it, give it to them.

Of course, if they invade for no reason and people do get pissed, it's time to put them on ice.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 4, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Because striking first is a horrible idea?
> 
> I just don't get what's the problem though. We have no complaints from within Crimea (and Russia is many things, but they don't suppress dissent much) so I say just let them be. If people ask for it, give it to them.
> 
> Of course, if they invade for no reason and people do get pissed, it's time to put them on ice.


Who said anything about 'striking first'? A Carrier Group is enough to make any nation stand down without firing a shot. 

And you seriously don't gets whats wrong with Crimea being in Russian hands?


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## Suigetsu (Apr 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And you seriously don't gets whats wrong with Crimea being in Russian hands?



Please explain cause I dont really know. :/


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## Nordstrom (Apr 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Who said anything about 'striking first'? A Carrier Group is enough to make any nation stand down without firing a shot.
> 
> And you seriously don't gets whats wrong with Crimea being in Russian hands?



So long as you don't fire one, a carrier group is just a huge brick wall to make the view of their backyard more uncomfortable.

I get the rigged referendum part and all that, however, I've seen no Crimeans themselves complaining and taking it back would only damage the Ukranian economy. As it stands, everyone else is better off with Crimea in Russian hands.


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## Flynn (Apr 4, 2014)

Mael said:


> Pretty much what Mega said.
> 
> My God the Putin apologism is astouding in this Cafe.



To be honest most people are speaking about Putin outside of being political. Some aren't really trying to make a claim of recognition but just noticing his character and his administration's nuances, as an exhibition of coolness.

So for the most part, I wouldn't call it apologism


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And you seriously don't gets whats wrong with Crimea being in Russian hands?



Why don't you explain with well laid out socioeconomic points, which have to be more specific than a simple "hurr durr Rusia dictatorship, democracy fuck yeah",


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

Ser Jossy of the Feels said:


> To be honest most people are speaking about Putin outside of being political. Some aren't really trying to make a claim of recognition but just noticing his character and his administration's nuances, as an exhibition of coolness.
> 
> So for the most part, I wouldn't call it apologism



I call it just that.  His exhibition deludes people from his true nature.


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## ClandestineSchemer (Apr 4, 2014)

Mael said:


> I call it just that.  His exhibition deludes people from his true nature.



I think most are aware of it and aren't expressing their support for most of his policies. 
So its not apologism, by any stretch of the definition
But you can't deny his cool factor.



Putin, Vladimir Putin.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 4, 2014)

I support Putin for taking Russia out of the slump Yeltsin put Russia into. Everything else is window dressing.


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## walkerandarazu (Apr 4, 2014)

> McDonald's 'temporarily closes' Crimea restaurants
> 
> McDonald's has altered its operations in the Crimea after tensions between Russia and the West.
> 
> ...





Just before anyone going to say smt, there some clear instability in last couple of days in Crimea.

Most of banks closed, because of lack of money (the paper/coins one)
ATM (cash machines) only giving out 50 Grivnias per day which is about 5$ (thats the limit for 1 card)
No petrol in petrol stations

McDonalds closing down more of lack of people and tourists

Deutsche Post is weird on this stance.

Also Tourists returning tickets for cruise ships that they had booked before due to need of extra visas (EU/Turkish/Swiss citizens can freely enter Ukraine without any visas, but they would need one to go to Russia)

Also bands of people going around asking first line building owners (closest to sea) to run away from Sevastopol while they still can if they want to be alive, meaning to give up their possessions.


Also all snipers were identified and named from February 20. Some were from black part of Berkut, who's job was to do dirty work, some were from Alpha (SWAT equivalent in Ua) and some are named to be from Russian FSB. Ukraine asking Russia for their detention, while FSB denies all ties. It was also stated that some of them went to Crimea.


Oh and Darth Vader was baned.


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## Mael (Apr 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> I think most are aware of it and aren't expressing their support for most of his policies.
> So its not apologism, by any stretch of the definition
> But you can't deny his cool factor.
> 
> ...



I call complete bullshit.  I think those fuckers are as absurd and out of touch as Noam Chomsky.  They're mistaking a complete shithead for someone "cool."


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 4, 2014)

RussiaTroll at it again.. I blame the interwebz..


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## rajin (Apr 4, 2014)

21ST CENTURY WAR is won by *BUSINESS and economy* and not by war.
war nowadays is too much of a burden and ofcourse putin is cool not matter what he does. usa is busy in tea party.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> So long as you don't fire one, a carrier group is just a huge brick wall to make the view of their backyard more uncomfortable.
> 
> I get the rigged referendum part and all that, however, I've seen no Crimeans themselves complaining and taking it back would only damage the Ukranian economy. As it stands, everyone else is better off with Crimea in Russian hands.


Dude, the Crimeans and Tartars have been being suppressed and outright arrested (sometimes tortured) for speaking out. 

And no, Crimea is legally part of Ukraine. Its their sovereign territory. And dude, do you even know what Appeasement is? Putin will just attack ANOTHER Soviet Bloc country to integrate it back into the Federation since no one has the balls to finally bomb his army back to the stone age.


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## dynasaur (Apr 5, 2014)

practise some yoga. lmao


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, the Crimeans and Tartars have been being suppressed and outright arrested (sometimes tortured) for speaking out.
> 
> And no, Crimea is legally part of Ukraine. Its their sovereign territory. And dude, do you even know what Appeasement is? Putin will just attack ANOTHER Soviet Bloc country to integrate it back into the Federation since no one has the balls to finally bomb his army back to the stone age.



The same Crimeans that wanted independence and joining Russia in the first place?

Crimea is part of who Crimea decides they belong to. I'd know, my homeland has been waging this war ever since Francisco Franco rose to power. Don't forget that while Russia will integrate nations that say so, I doubt they'll risk war for going on to annex their opponents...

LOL at bombing Russia to the stone age. Wanting to overwhelm Russia in the firepower department is a lost cause until energy weapons become widespread.

Also, stop using "dude" because, dude, it's totally not cool.


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## Sanity Check (Apr 5, 2014)

I hope Putin makes another...  "We won't annex Crimea" speech.

I appreciate that type of high level trolling.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> The same Crimeans that wanted independence and joining Russia in the first place?


You know perfectly well the Crimeans didn't have a choice either way. They were occupied and put at GUNPOINT by Russia to secede so Russia can swallow it up.


> Crimea is part of who Crimea decides they belong to. I'd know, my homeland has been waging this war ever since Francisco Franco rose to power. Don't forget that while Russia will integrate nations that say so, I doubt they'll risk war for going on to annex their opponents...


Crimea, at gunpoint, seceded from Ukraine. Any Crimeans who objected were suppressed. Its fucking common knowledge if you've been following Crimea-Ukraine thread. 

Why are you giving Russia a free pass while condemning the US for every action? Hypocritical don't you think?


> LOL at bombing Russia to the stone age. Wanting to overwhelm Russia in the firepower department is a lost cause until energy weapons become widespread.


...the US has the best military in the world, you do know that right? Its superior to Russia's military in every single possible way.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You know perfectly well the Crimeans didn't have a choice either way. They were occupied and put at GUNPOINT by Russia to secede so Russia can swallow it up.



Really? People with no choice could argue to have one of their seaside towns added as a federal city?



> Crimea, at gunpoint, seceded from Ukraine. Any Crimeans who objected were suppressed. Its fucking common knowledge if you've been following Crimea-Ukraine thread.



Any Crimeans that objected...

> You forgot "and did not vote" for boycotting the thing rather than screaming no at the top of their lungs.



> Why are you giving Russia a free pass while condemning the US for every action? Hypocritical don't you think?



I don't condemn Russia because Crimea ASKED for it. Latin America had no say in the matter at all on anything.



> ...the US has the best military in the world, you do know that right? Its superior to Russia's military in every single possible way.



Welcome to "US Wanking, part drunk".

This is a meaningless blanket statement. The US can lose a war (not saying they wouldn't, but I feel like reminding you) like any military in this world, but just in case...



> The country is one of the five recognized nuclear weapons states and possesses the largest stockpile of weapons of mass destruction.[



Good evening to you sir! Hope you enjoy triggering the end of mankind!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Really? People with no choice could argue to have one of their seaside towns added as a federal city?


Yes, they had no choice. The vote was rigged, the voters were pushed at literal gunpoint for a solution that Russia would benefit from. 




> Any Crimeans that objected...
> 
> > You forgot "and did not vote" for boycotting the thing rather than screaming no at the top of their lungs.


And you're ignoring the Crimeans and Tartars who were arrested and tortured for objecting. The Crimeans didn't want this, they just _had no other choice._ Anyone whose been following the situation knows that.




> I don't condemn Russia because Crimea ASKED for it. Latin America had no say in the matter at all on anything.


Except it didn't. Crimea was literally occupied by Russia, forced into a vote that would benefit Russia, and Russia then swallows it up. Any protestors are violently dealt with. 

And yes, you are being hypocritical: if the US does any intervention, you'd cry about it. But Russia does an actual invasion, you don't say anything. You are a hypocrite. 

Let me ask you: If Argentina decided to 'fuck Britain' and invade the Falklands yet again, then force the Falklanders at gunpoint to a phony election for it to secede, would you accept it?

Or if China invaded Guam, did the same things Russia did, would you accept it? 

Or if Russia did this same thing again, invading Poland, putting the voters at gunpoint and forcing them in a phony election to join the Russian Federation, would you accept it?


> Welcome to "US Wanking, part drunk".
> 
> This is a meaningless blanket statement. The US can lose a war (not saying they wouldn't, but I feel like reminding you) like any military in this world, but just in case...


You really don't know you're history. The US has only 'lost' a war since it lost popular support at home. Any military analysis will tell you that the current US Military losing a conventional war is highly unlikely due to all the technological advantages.




> Good evening to you sir! Hope you enjoy triggering the end of mankind!


Conventional warfare. Not nuclear.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, they had no choice. The vote was rigged, the voters were pushed at literal gunpoint for a solution that Russia would benefit from.
> 
> And you're ignoring the Crimeans and Tartars who were arrested and tortured for objecting. The Crimeans didn't want this, they just _had no other choice._ Anyone whose been following the situation knows that.





Really now?



> Except it didn't. Crimea was literally occupied by Russia, forced into a vote that would benefit Russia, and Russia then swallows it up. Any protestors are violently dealt with.



It wasn't. You might argue all you like but they wanted this and got it. The Tatars and Euromaidan supporters didn't, but they were the same people that they wanted out of there in the first place.



> And yes, you are being hypocritical: if the US does any intervention, you'd cry about it. But Russia does an actual invasion, you don't say anything. You are a hypocrite.



Compare and contrast:



With the intervention of Russia.

When a foreign government interferes, you listen to what the people say! Not the other way around. That's what America did not understand.



> You really don't know you're history. The US has only 'lost' a war since it lost popular support at home. Any military analysis will tell you that the current US Military losing a conventional war is highly unlikely due to all the technological advantages.
> 
> Conventional warfare. Not nuclear.



Everything's fair in love and war.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

...its like talking with a literal wall with you Slep...you're so deadset in your hatred of the US you can't even see your hypocrisy when Russia does something.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

I don't see counterpoints, so I guess you're out of bull...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I don't see counterpoints, so I guess you're out of bull...


Since talking with you is a literal wall. You're so dead set in your hatred of America or its policies, you can't see the hypocrisy of letting Russia invade and take Crimea while setting its sights on the rest of Ukraine.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since talking with you is a literal wall. You're so dead set in your hatred of America or its policies, you can't see the hypocrisy of letting Russia invade and take Crimea while setting its sights on the rest of Ukraine.



How the fuck am I a wall moron?

Tell me how I am being an hypocrite again by telling me how the US supporting dictatorships across a region is better than what Russia is doing right now.

I dare anyone who supports America to come up with an excuse.

I am as open to any reason as absurd and ridiculous as Latam nations planning to destroy America or hiding WMD's if that's the case!

I am talking not even to a wall, but to a bloody window! And nobody's listening.

Until Russia tries another land grab, I stand by this opinion however unpopular it is for most Westerners. This is coming from the guy whose place of birth has been fighting tooth and nail to get what Crimea has...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> How the fuck am I a wall moron?
> 
> Tell me how I am being an hypocrite again by telling me how the US supporting dictatorships across a region is better than what Russia is doing right now.
> 
> ...


You're bringing up the Cold War, something that is not only FAR in the past, but Latin America has recovered from it. And yes, you are a wall. You don't listen to what actually has happened in Crimea.

Your hatred of America clouds your judgement. Anyone with half a brain can tell that the Crimean Elections were not only fixed, but forced by Russia.


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## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You're bringing up the Cold War, something that is not only FAR in the past, but Latin America has recovered from it. And yes, you are a wall. You don't listen to what actually has happened in Crimea.
> 
> Your hatred of America clouds your judgement. Anyone with half a brain can tell that the Crimean Elections were not only fixed, but forced by Russia.



It's in the past, but it had long lasting effects and showed me how American foreign policy could be. I'll give any nation who attempts similar stuff a free pass now as well... Why? Because it'd be fucking unfair to just throw it aside and then cry foul when other nations act the same. Time is meaningless here. That was stuff that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Did you even read the bloody article? If you can't read then I can say I'm talking to thin air and that you don't even know how to click on the links provided. It is your hatred of America's enemies that has blinded you. But to think you've made me resort to calling you names... Well, you've gotten mighty far. Anyone with a half brain can read the article and realize there are two sides to this story.


----------



## Jin-E (Apr 5, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> Tantrum = invading a country because they won't be your bitch anymore



It was a legit operation. The russian speaking minority were facing the threat of genocide from the new Ukrainian neo-nazi government after all.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 5, 2014)

Jin-E said:


> It was a legit operation. The russian speaking minority were facing the threat of genocide from the new Ukrainian neo-nazi government after all.



Well, the government might not be completely fascist (in fact, "only" seven ministers), but if corrupt people like Tymoschenko, who literally said you should nuke the ~8 million Russians in Ukraine, are candidates for president and no one cares in the West, it still makes you thoughtful.

If the interventions of the U.S. in Iraq and all the other countries were legit, this was legit too. There's no real difference, geopolitics are geopolitics, just this time it seems Russia has won.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

^ Someone understands!


----------



## Pliskin (Apr 5, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> If the interventions of the U.S. in Iraq and all the other countries were legit, this was legit too. There's no real difference, geopolitics are geopolitics, just this time it seems Russia has won.



First, won is a big term. If Putin keeps this up he might just crash the Russian economy, since nobody is gonna invest money in cold war era Russia.

Second, while the legality of the Irag war is certainly questionable, America did not annex countries. And I think the people Of Georgia are waiting for Putin to cash in on his opinion that people should be able to vote whether they'd like to be Russian or not.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Investing in any Cold War state, even Cold War America doesn't look good. If anything, Non aligned states will be the ones to cash in from this.


----------



## Pliskin (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Investing in any Cold War state, even Cold War America doesn't look good. If anything, Non aligned states will be the ones to cash in from this.



I'd say given the choice most countries would rather do Business with the U.S., but that is besides the point. I am not saying that Russia will be the only one hurt, what I am saying is that Putin for his manlett ego is sacrificing the already crippled economic power of Russia.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Pliskin said:


> I'd say given the choice most countries would rather do Business with the U.S., but that is besides the point. I am not saying that Russia will be the only one hurt, what I am saying is that Putin for his manlett ego is sacrificing the already crippled economic power of Russia.



Uh, they weren't more crippled than America, that's for sure.

Investing in a nation waging Cold War when you're surrounded by neutral countries is a good way to lose your profits, Murica or not.


----------



## Mael (Apr 5, 2014)

Okay so are you sucking Putin's dick or not, Sleip?

It's like you MUST address the US in some negative light even when the subject is not even related to.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Mael said:


> Okay so are you sucking Putin's dick or not, Sleip?
> 
> It's like you MUST address the US in some negative light even when the subject is not even related to.



Not really. America just recovered from a rather recent slump. Russia did too, but they seemed to be growing faster than the US. That and when investing, you don't choose a country involved in a Cold War. Neither Russia nor the US. You go for neutral countries that will cash in on the conflict.


----------



## Mael (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Not really. America just recovered from a rather recent slump. Russia did too, but they seemed to be growing faster than the US. That and when investing, you don't choose a country involved in a Cold War. Neither Russia nor the US. You go for neutral countries that will cash in on the conflict.



Russia is merely cashing in on being a petrostate.  Once Canada and the US start exporting, they will lose that status really quick.

Take note of that.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Mael said:


> Russia is merely cashing in on being a petrostate.  Once Canada and the US start exporting, they will lose that status really quick.
> 
> Take note of that.



Petrostates are mighty things Mael. There's a reason Saudi Arabia can keep a welfare state going even right now.

Isn't the US exporting already? Or do you mean Prudhoe Bay?


----------



## Mael (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Petrostates are mighty things Mael. There's a reason Saudi Arabia can keep a welfare state going even right now.
> 
> Isn't the US exporting already? Or do you mean Prudhoe Bay?



But they weaken with more competitors, especially given the bounteous amounts of natural gas the US just discovered.  It's called turning the tables, and people that get sick of Russia's shit will find new customers and the North American nations will cash in on it.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleip trying to debate things he knows nothing about again?  Color me surprised.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Mael said:


> But they weaken with more competitors, especially given the bounteous amounts of natural gas the US just discovered.  It's called turning the tables, and people that get sick of Russia's shit will find new customers and the North American nations will cash in on it.



Then it becomes petrol vs petrol. Shall I remind you Russia is getting back to business technology wise as well...

Scratch that, this isn't the thread for it. All I know is that investing in EITHER COUNTRY is not good for anyone, regardless of who gets the advantage. I couldn't care less, but if some people are going to flaunt, I'm going to smash their heads to the floor with my bare hands.

That aside, America won't cash in on Europe unless they build a pipeline to them, so there's one problem. Whether they can find a way around it or not is a whole nother story...

Also, just NA countries? I feel the bias in you. And I think you meant "new providers".


----------



## Mael (Apr 5, 2014)

> Shall I remind you Russia is getting back to business technology wise as well...



Yeah sure they are...evidence?



> Also, just NA countries? I feel the bias in you.



God you're dumb if you couldn't get the context.


----------



## Pliskin (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> , but if some people are going to flaunt, I'm going to smash their heads to the floor with my bare hands.



You have issues, man.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

Mael said:


> Yeah sure they are...evidence?






Not more than America and other nations, but not behind either.



> God you're dumb if you couldn't get the context.



What context? Care to explain. You said NA and nothing else. If you used "alternative" I might have gotten it better.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 5, 2014)

Pliskin said:


> Second, while the legality of the Irag war is certainly questionable, America did not annex countries..



History lesson: Crimea was 100% part of Russia at least since Catherine the Great.  1954 was it made part of Ukraine by the Ukrainian Nikita Chruschtschow. No democracy, no public international law.

Therefore it's retarded to see Russia as a crazy aggresor that wants to conquer East-Europe.
I think it's reasonable most inhabitants of Crimea rather want to be part of Russia, but the problem is the Ukraine is without Crimea worthless for the NATO.
Putin's strategy is reasonable after he got trolled by the West countless times


----------



## Pliskin (Apr 5, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> History lesson: Crimea was 100% part of Russia at least since Catherine the Great.  1954 was it made part of Ukraine by the Ukrainian Nikita Chruschtschow. No democracy, no public international law.
> 
> Therefore it's retarded to see Russia as a crazy aggresor that wants to conquer East-Europe.
> I think it's reasonable most inhabitants of Crimea rather want to be part of Russia, but the problem is the Ukraine is without Crimea worthless for the NATO.



See, as a German the 'Y years ago  X was part of Germany'  Argument makes me uncomfortable. And the whole Georgia not getting to vote thing is still there,


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 5, 2014)

I won't talk for Georgia. That was indeed wrong. But Crimea is not like that.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 5, 2014)

Pliskin said:


> See, as a German the 'Y years ago  X was part of Germany'  Argument makes me uncomfortable. And the whole Georgia not getting to vote thing is still there,



See, I'm a German too, but the difference in the case of Crimea is that most of the inhabitants are actually Russians. All Germans from the eastern territories were forcibly driven out after/during WWII.

May I remind you, it's the *peoples'* right of self-determination, not the *states'* one.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 5, 2014)

Mider T said:


> Sleip trying to debate things he knows nothing about again?  Color me surprised.



Seriously...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> And you're making my sides hurt... No, really.
> 
> I never said anything about Asia, or even contending with Silicon Valley. I said they won't be a petrolstate forever. Their reliance on that for profit will decrease eventually. Any state develops into a post industrial nation at some point.
> 
> ...


'American Imperialism'? You're using that buzz word again. By definition, Imperialism is conquering another nation and turning it into a state or colony of your own nation. The last time that the US did that was in the Spanish American War...over a hundred years ago. You'll point out America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, ignoring we toppled oppressive governments and now Iraq at least is free to do whatever it wants.

Russia then does actual imperialism (invading a country and integrating part of it into its own borders) and you again give a free pass.

We're being bigoted? No, we're not, we're just stating facts. You're being a hypocrite as usual who has a hate-on for America and will do everything and anything to paint it in a bad light for its actions in the Cold War, which decades ago.

Instead of living in the present, you make your entire world view on the past. Instead of acknowledging that the US _itself_ has acknowledged its mistakes in Latin America, you act like it doesn't.


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 5, 2014)

Putin is a black belt in judo & tae kwon do.

His yoga skills must be gold belt level.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 5, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You'll point out America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, ignoring we toppled oppressive governments and now Iraq at least is free to do whatever it wants.


Are you serious?


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Apr 5, 2014)

Mael said:


> That's like saying Iran's gaming market can contend with Ubisoft.



Ehm..

[YOUTUBE]PS9rFAbhvX0[/YOUTUBE]

Still looks better than Watch_dogs


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 5, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Not so behind actually. And they are catching up. Fast.
> 
> Then again, who doesn't gets ground to fine dust by anything Asian in technology?
> 
> Insulting again? Alright maggot, I've been well aware of that for some time now, but I just fucking wonder how they'll offset the balance of energy in Eastern Europe without pipelines. Also, they seem to have not been harnessed yet and nations keep growing, so what's your point? *Russia won't be a petrolstate forever*.



It's ture that they can make evolve their economy however, I wonder wonder how. I wonder if they have a plan for that. I only heard about their project to make Vladivostok, a Casino city but nothing more.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 5, 2014)

*Evict McDonald's From Russia, Vladimir Zhirinovsky Urges - And Pepsi Too*



> *Evict McDonald's From Russia, Vladimir Zhirinovsky Urges - And Pepsi Too *
> 
> The Huffington Post Canada  |  Posted: 04/04/2014 4:47 pm EDT  |  Updated: 04/04/2014 4:59 pm ED
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Apr 5, 2014)

Russia just being punkass Russia.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 5, 2014)

Yeah, yeah. The amount of stuff this guy says. I bet he doesn't know it belongs to Russians and are running as franchises. Or maybe he does and plays it like he always does. Fascist...

He should have used unhealthy as main purpose.


----------



## Capt. Autismo (Apr 5, 2014)

*Putin Banned From 'Mighty Taco' Restaurant*



> BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) ? Hey Putin, don't even think about ordering a Super Mighty in Buffalo.
> 
> Mighty Taco, a Buffalo-based chain of Mexican fast-foot restaurants, has banned Russian President Vladimir Putin from all of the company's 23 locations in western New York.
> 
> ...


----------



## Raidoton (Apr 5, 2014)

That's some good advertising!


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Apr 5, 2014)

Why             ?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 5, 2014)

Well good for publicity I guess, but it's not like Putin will ever set foot in any of the restaurants anyway.


----------



## Fujita (Apr 5, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well good for publicity I guess, but it's not like Putin will ever set foot in any of the restaurants anyway.



Pretty much this


----------



## kazuri (Apr 5, 2014)

Hey lets punish russian citizens for what their government does. I'm sure the citizens can make the government change, there is probably nothing to stop that.


----------



## ExoSkel (Apr 5, 2014)

kazuri said:


> Hey lets punish russian citizens for what their government does. I'm sure the citizens can make the government change, there is probably nothing to stop that.


He's doing Russians a favor by banning them from eating fatty mcfat shitburgers.


----------



## Wesley (Apr 5, 2014)

We're going to fight World War III over McDonald's.


----------



## horsdhaleine (Apr 5, 2014)

ExoSkel said:


> He's doing Russians a favor by banning them from eating fatty mcfat shitburgers.



Truth, but...



walkerandarazu said:


> Yeah, yeah. The amount of stuff this guy says. I bet he doesn't know it belongs to Russians and are running as franchises. Or maybe he does and plays it like he always does. Fascist...
> 
> He should have used unhealthy as main purpose.



...a lot of Russian businesspeople may lose a lot as well as those franchises are owned by Russians already. They have to have a new line of product/service ready to replace it.


----------



## ExoSkel (Apr 5, 2014)

horsdhaleine said:


> Truth, but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...a lot of Russian businesspeople may lose a lot as well as those franchises are owned by Russians already. They have to have a new line of product/service ready to replace it.


I'm sure those Russian business people are touched by your concern for them.


----------



## Chelydra (Apr 5, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> History lesson: Crimea was 100% part of Russia at least since Catherine the Great.  1954 was it made part of Ukraine by the Ukrainian Nikita Chruschtschow. No democracy, no public international law.
> 
> Therefore it's retarded to see Russia as a crazy aggresor that wants to conquer East-Europe.
> I think it's reasonable most inhabitants of Crimea rather want to be part of Russia, but the problem is the Ukraine is without Crimea worthless for the NATO.
> Putin's strategy is reasonable after he got trolled by the West countless times



Does that mean the USA can retake the Philippines based on an imaginary threat?


----------



## Chelydra (Apr 5, 2014)

I guess a pro Russia group was going to attack Kiev


----------



## horsdhaleine (Apr 5, 2014)

^False analogy.


----------



## Kanga (Apr 5, 2014)

Alright then.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 5, 2014)

oh no the only secret weapon America had against Russia was to make it's population hooked on our unhealthy junk food this combined with the radiation from Chernobyl was supposed to make them so weak they'd run out of breath charging into battle We're doomed


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Seriously...



Tell Mider I can't hear him. But he doesn't knows anything about geopolitics from what I could infer before!



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 'American Imperialism'? You're using that buzz word again. By definition, Imperialism is conquering another nation and turning it into a state or colony of your own nation. The last time that the US did that was in the Spanish American War...over a hundred years ago. You'll point out America invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, ignoring we toppled oppressive governments and now Iraq at least is free to do whatever it wants.





> In 1954, ?rbenz was overthrown in a coup orchestrated by the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) on the pretext that a socialist government would become a Soviet puppet in the Western Hemisphere. Historians have alleged the CIA overthrew ?rbenz to protect the property of the United Fruit Company (later Chiquita Brands International Inc.), a major US company that faced losing large amounts of land due to agrarian reform, and was dissatisfied with the compensation it received. Carlos Castillo Armas, a former military officer who led the CIA-backed invasion from Honduras, was installed as president in 1954. Castillo reversed Decree 900 (land reform) and ruled until July 26, 1957, when he was assassinated by Romeo V?squez, a member of his personal guard.







> Russia then does actual imperialism (invading a country and integrating part of it into its own borders) and you again give a free pass.



Reasons for giving them a free pass? I gave America many, so I must give Russia as much. I count them. I'll begin bullshitting them if they treat Crimea worse.



> We're being bigoted? No, we're not, we're just stating facts. You're being a hypocrite as usual who has a hate-on for America and will do everything and anything to paint it in a bad light for its actions in the Cold War, which decades ago.



Yes you are. If I was being an hypocrite, I'd criticize Russia for Crimea and let the USA have a free pass over stuff like the Contra affair. I'm not going to just say "lolColdWar". However, if I was able to forgive America for that, I must also turn a blind eye on nations that do the same. It's being fair.



> Instead of living in the present, you make your entire world view on the past. Instead of acknowledging that the US _itself_ has acknowledged its mistakes in Latin America, you act like it doesn't.



It has not. Nicaragua still awaits reparation for having laid mines in their harbors.

I will forgive the United States when they launch a Marshall Plan in Latin America and criticize Russia once it invades a region that has NOT asked for it.



Le M?le Dominant said:


> It's ture that they can make evolve their economy however, I wonder wonder how. I wonder if they have a plan for that. I only heard about their project to make Vladivostok, a Casino city but nothing more.



Industry and telecommunications seem most likely. The later has boomed in Russia recently. The services sector seems to be growing steadily, but I doubt it'll become a major player in the near future.


----------



## Xiammes (Apr 6, 2014)

Moe said:


> Why             ?



Its pretty damn good publicity.


----------



## Hand Banana (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't know what a Mighty taco is, but I want one.


----------



## Deleted member 23 (Apr 6, 2014)

Moe said:


> Why             ?


All that needs to be said


----------



## Ram (Apr 6, 2014)

lol                       .


----------



## Mider T (Apr 6, 2014)

He'll go there specifically because he's banned from doing so.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Tell Mider I can't hear him. But he doesn't knows



"Doesn't knows" huh? 

Anyway you're probably reading this,  we all know you've failed to ignore before.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 6, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> History lesson: Crimea was 100% part of Russia at least since Catherine the Great.  1954 was it made part of Ukraine by the Ukrainian Nikita Chruschtschow. No democracy, no public international law.
> 
> Therefore it's retarded to see Russia as a crazy aggresor that wants to conquer East-Europe.
> I think it's reasonable most inhabitants of Crimea rather want to be part of Russia, but the problem is the Ukraine is without Crimea worthless for the NATO.
> Putin's strategy is reasonable after he got trolled by the West countless times



Another history lesson: The reason it was Russified was because in the 40's the Russians ethnically cleansed the entire territory of Tatars and replaced them with Russian settlers. During de-stalinization Khrushchev tried to throw the Crimeans a bone, thus the action you described. Crimean Tatars still left are widely against Russian imperialism and now because of that are facing  by Putin.

As for public opinion, a few months before the revolution in Ukraine there was an extensive survey done in the Crimean that found . Very different from that ridiculous figure the Russians had in their "referendum" a few weeks back, that one where more people voted than the population of Crimea.

Also this concept of invading other countries based on the perceived wishes of the population is ridiculous. The entire Russian platform of justifying aggression here is based on "b..b...but america!!!!". Bitching about what 'murica did years ago doesn't justifying Russian anschlusing its neighbors. This immature justification is done by the common RT-spouting shill online all the way up to the Kremlin, which is the most embarrassing part.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 6, 2014)

And yeah I just fucking merged a bajillion different things. Because Ru$$sia str0000000ng!!!111


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Not the same thing as ACTUAL Imperialism. When you conquer another country for the soul purpose of integrating it into your territory, that is imperialism plain and simple.




> Reasons for giving them a free pass? I gave America many, so I must give Russia as much. I count them. I'll begin bullshitting them if they treat Crimea worse.


You've given America NONE. You're always the attack dog against it whenever it does ANYTHING. Yet you never see the US going into countries, conquering them, and making them part of their own territory. Russia does it, no peeps giving. No fucks given. Since you dont' care what Russia does, it isn't your hate on for the US.




> Yes you are. If I was being an hypocrite, I'd criticize Russia for Crimea and let the USA have a free pass over stuff like the Contra affair. I'm not going to just say "lolColdWar". However, if I was able to forgive America for that, I must also turn a blind eye on nations that do the same. It's being fair.


No, you're being hypocritical since you can't recognize past actions don't matter in the present. IranContra Affair, GUESS FUCKING WHAT, was widely condemned in the US. The only reason why no treason convictions were levied is because of the fucking Cold War's stakes. Not only that, you're so blinded you don't care what the US does internally against those actions.

The USA hasn't gone into and invaded a country for the sole purpose of making it part of its own territory in over a hundred years. Russia does it, forces Crimea to do what it wants, you don't care. 

And you're NOT being fair. You're being a hypocrite.


> It has not. Nicaragua still awaits reparation for having laid mines in their harbors.
> 
> I will forgive the United States when they launch a Marshall Plan in Latin America and criticize Russia once it invades a region that has NOT asked for it.


Except CRIMEA NEVER ASKED FOR IT. Dear god, you STILL fucking believe Crimea WANTED Russia there, are you THIS FUCKING BLIND? 

And yes, America has acknowledged what it has done in Latin America. Its fucking TAUGHT all over the US so it doesn't happen again. Those responsible have been held accountable. But again, you don't care.

What you're doing Sleipnyr is levying the sins of our fathers and grandfathers onto the current generation. I wasn't even born, or was in DIAPERS when those things happened. Yet, using your logic, I'm just as responsible and shouldn't be criticizing Russia for literally invading a country and integrating part of it into its own borders.


----------



## Cygnus45 (Apr 6, 2014)




----------



## Mider T (Apr 6, 2014)

^Incredibly late.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 6, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> Another history lesson: The reason it was Russified was because in the 40's the Russians ethnically cleansed the entire territory of Tatars and replaced them with Russian settlers.



Right know most inhabitants ARE Russians, and that's all what matters. Just like the U.S. belong today to settlers and not the Native Americans. 
I smell hypocrisy


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 6, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Right know most inhabitants ARE Russians, and that's all what matters.



Except this wasn't 300 years ago, there are still survivors of the original Crimean Diaspora. That's very much relevant here.

Also Crimea belongs to Ukraine, it is internationally recognized as such and as I cited earlier a minority of Russian-Ukrainians in the Crimea wanted to join Russia anyway before the revolution.



> Just like the U.S. belong today to settlers and not the Native Americans.
> I smell hypocrisy



Think about what I said earlier with all this "whatabout"ery


----------



## Saishin (Apr 6, 2014)

> *Russian ambassadors 'joked about annexing Scotland'*
> 
> A leaked recording purporting to be of envoys joking about adding Scotland, Alaska and Venice to Russia's conquest of Crimea is the latest salvo in the war of dirty tricks over Ukraine
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Apr 6, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Right know most inhabitants ARE Russians, and that's all what matters. Just like the U.S. belong today to settlers and not the Native Americans.
> I smell hypocrisy



There we go again with that shit-tier tu quoque.

The thing is, the Native Americans (as tragic as it was) never had internationally-recognized or actually drawn boundaries.  Their land was whatever they claimed it to be without any documentation which is contrary how the West and Asia rolled.

You're smarter than this and right now most inhabitants are Russian because they were bussing Russians into the fucking region.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> There we go again with that shit-tier tu quoque.
> 
> The thing is, the Native Americans (as tragic as it was) never had internationally-recognized or actually drawn boundaries.  Their land was whatever they claimed it to be without any documentation which is contrary how the West and Asia rolled.
> 
> You're smarter than this and right now most inhabitants are Russian because they were bussing Russians into the fucking region.



Yet still Crimea is the home of this Russians. You can't just drive them out, but you surely know the conflict in the Ukraine is not about international law or human rights or something like that, these are just euphemistic words, from both sides.


----------



## Mael (Apr 6, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Yet still Crimea is the home of this Russians. You can't just drive them out, but you surely know the conflict in the Ukraine is not about international law or human rights or something like that, these are just euphemistic words, from both sides.



That's just too bad.

That's the same shit with Sudetenland.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 6, 2014)

*Ukraine: Pro-Russians storm government office in Donetsk*



> Pro-Russian protesters have stormed the regional administration building in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk.
> 
> About 50 people are reported to have broken away from a rally of about 2,000 people in the city centre, and got past a police cordon to enter the building.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26910210


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Hand Banana said:


> I don't know what a Mighty taco is, but I want one.



Same, I'm hungry.



Megaharrison said:


> Except this wasn't 300 years ago, there are still survivors of the original Crimean Diaspora. That's very much relevant here.
> 
> _*Also Crimea belongs to Ukraine, it is internationally recognized as such *_and as I cited earlier a minority of Russian-Ukrainians in the Crimea wanted to join Russia anyway before the revolution.
> 
> ...



My homeland demands I side with Crimea on this. No international community, and not Russia either.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Then Sleipnyr, why are you siding with the take over of Crimea? If you're siding with them, why are you ignoring the forced elections, the Russian infiltration which kickstarted this, the Russian invasion, and finally the election results that don't fit the actual number of people who supported joining Russia (23% compared)?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Because I would've seen Crimeans themselves taking to the streets even with the military running around. That's what usually happens.

Sevastopol asking to be added as a federal city and having been anti Euromaidan before being invaded also helps.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Because I would've seen Crimeans themselves taking to the streets even with the military running around. That's what usually happens.
> 
> Sevastopol asking to be added as a federal city and having been anti Euromaidan before being invaded also helps.


People have tried to take it to the streets. Hell there's videos posted of pro-Ukraine Crimeans being beaten up and suppressed by the Russian infiltrators and Russian military themselves. 

You HONESTLY don't see the Crimeans being suppressed by Russia to the point where they can't do anything to stop the integration after they were conquered?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> People have tried to take it to the streets. Hell there's videos posted of pro-Ukraine Crimeans being beaten up and suppressed by the Russian infiltrators and Russian military themselves.
> 
> You HONESTLY don't see the Crimeans being suppressed by Russia to the point where they can't do anything to stop the integration after they were conquered?



I honestly don't. I've seen real uprisings. This is no different from the opposite that would happen. Hell, after that "nuke Russia" remark, I'm sure I would prefer them as "oppressed" under Russia than anywhere close to NATO. 



> During the period of time in which Crimea was controlled by Ukraine, the Parliament was unable to appoint the Prime Minister of Crimea on its own, being able to appoint him only with the advice and consent of the President of Ukraine. *This restriction did not sit well with the Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine.*



After that, I refuse to recognize Ukraine claims unless they accede to allow them to choose their Prime Minister freely.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 6, 2014)

Sign... The thread just goes off wild by itself.

What matters is, that there's a part of Crimeans who don't want to be under Russia, or would like to be under Russia, but doesn't want their kids go to Chechnya or Siberia, get their pensions from Russia and other small&big stuff...

Russia is wrong, because they invaded another country.

Crimea had a set referendum on May 25, before some little green man came out (I'm sorry, it was the little green man, not Russia, lets call them the LGM Team).

Russia invaded for nothing, literally.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> I honestly don't. I've seen real uprisings. This is no different from the opposite that would happen. Hell, after that "nuke Russia" remark, I'm sure I would prefer them as "oppressed" under Russia than anywhere close to NATO.


Since they aren't allowed to uprise. They've been brutally suppressed. You honestly ARE blind to what has actually happened Sleipnyr, and are only supporting Russia (since you aren't supporting Crimea) due to your hatred of the US's actions during the Cold War. 

And Russia, with its shitty human right's record is a BETTER ALTERNATIVE to fucking NATO? Are you shitting me?


> After that, I refuse to recognize Ukraine claims unless they accede to allow them to choose their Prime Minister freely.


Crimea is a STATE in Ukraine. You don't see states in the US getting that special treatment, do you? Or anywhere else?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since they aren't allowed to uprise. They've been brutally suppressed. You honestly ARE blind to what has actually happened Sleipnyr, and are only supporting Russia (since you aren't supporting Crimea) due to your hatred of the US's actions during the Cold War.
> 
> And Russia, with its shitty human right's record is a BETTER ALTERNATIVE to fucking NATO? Are you shitting me?
> 
> Crimea is a STATE in Ukraine. You don't see states in the US getting that special treatment, do you? Or anywhere else?



Listen, I am not saying Russia's perfect, but I can't support a nation that didn't even let them choose their own Prime Minister. TBH I'd rather have Crimea be fully independent than with Russia, but I definitely don't support them going back to Ukraine. Not unless they make concessions to them. I am not supporting Russia anymore than I am supporting Ukraine on this. I'd rather have neither have it, but since they're already with Russia, there's not much I can do but complain, so I won't. I am not there and there's nothing I can do for an "independent Crimea movement".

Crimea is not just an state, it was and still is an autonomous area. It's like Puerto Rico to the USA. Also, don't even say I don't know what I am talking about. I hail from Catalonia, and we've been pretty much doing everything we can to become an independent nation. If I had to say my position on Crimea, I'd support Russia taking it's hands off, but I wouldn't even imagine, Crimea crawling back to Ukraine, just like how an independent Catalonia wouldn't bat eyes at Madrid.

So which side am I you may ask, Euromaidan or Russia... My answer is NEITHER.

That and Kosovo is biting back it seems. I don't hate the US nor adore Russia (I loathe and love stuff from either), but I hate Ukraine now.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 6, 2014)

The whole "let Crimeans do what they want" argument from you is completely moot as I've posted both a poll which demonstrated less than a year ago that only a small minority of Crimeans wanted a union with Russia, and also that modern Crimean Tatars face displacement by the Russians yet again.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Yet they seemed to loathe Ukraine just as much, hence why I'd prefer "independent Crimea" fuck Russia, NATO and Ukraine, none of their bull is needed. I'd rather have Crimea become a non-aligned land.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Yet they seemed to loathe Ukraine just as much, hence why I'd prefer "independent Crimea" fuck Russia, NATO and Ukraine, none of their bull is needed. I'd rather have Crimea become a non-aligned land.


Except most Crimeans wanted to stay with Ukraine, hence the 23 percent wanting to join Russia. Mega, what was the poll about the independence from the same time?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

^ Who'd want to join the same nation that doesn't let you pick your own leaders? Doing the same shit from where I hail from would've fueled a huge riot.


----------



## Rain (Apr 6, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except most Crimeans wanted to stay with Ukraine, hence the 23 percent wanting to join Russia. Mega, what was the poll about the independence from the same time?



Just what are you smoking? 

I want it now.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ^ Who'd want to join the same nation that doesn't let you pick your own leaders? Doing the same shit from where I hail from would've fueled a huge riot.


Strange how Crimea was okay for _two decades_ with that arrangement until Russia's takeover and forced election, Sleipnyr. Here's the thing, Crimea is NOT Catalonia. Seriously, you act like your situation is one in the same with Crimea's.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Strange how Crimea was okay for _two decades_ with that arrangement until Russia's takeover and forced election, Sleipnyr. Here's the thing, Crimea is NOT Catalonia. Seriously, you act like your situation is one in the same with Crimea's.





> During the period of time in which Crimea was controlled by Ukraine, the Parliament was unable to appoint the Prime Minister of Crimea on its own, being able to appoint him only with the advice and consent of the President of Ukraine. This restriction did not sit well with the Parliament and its constituents, creating a long standing rift between them and the national government of Ukraine.



Totally fine, yes!


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 6, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Totally fine, yes!


Why would Crimea, which is part of Ukraine, need to appoint its own Prime Minister? That kind of doesn't make sense.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 6, 2014)

Because they asked for it as an Autonomous territory?


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 6, 2014)

I'm sure you guys herd about unrest in East Ukraine. They took control of some admin buildings and now barricading. Basically some pro-Russians asking for annex their lands to Russian. 

But...

Just now 3000 people decided to 'take-over' a local bank. They call it a strategic point.

So much for their 'legitimated' rioting.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 7, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhbbKoSH88c[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 7, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]kiZGZ4hSnI4[/YOUTUBE]

Just comparison:

[YOUTUBE]LtU3vUOa2sw[/YOUTUBE]

They are singing in the Soviet anthem's usual key. Just right after they won. Guess Putin wanted to send a covert message that "The USSR is back on business baby"


----------



## rajin (Apr 7, 2014)

Crimea has nothing much to lose when they can get billion of dollars of help. being at a strategic location has its own security problems as well as opportunities to be mined.
blackmail west and EU and keep getting funds from russia and hope you get away from the clutches of both being rich.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 7, 2014)

QUOTE=rajin;50308096]Crimea has nothing much to lose when they can get billion of dollars of help. being at a strategic location has its own security problems as well as opportunities to be mined.
blackmail west and EU and keep getting funds from russia and hope you get away from the clutches of both being rich.[/QUOTE]



As if Russia ever gave money to someone just like that, for nothing  Look at Abhasia, they're slummed down even deeper than when they were together with Georgia. Their once famous beaches are in some state of big crap nowadays, economic slammed down and 30-40% of population immigrated. 

Russia would actually care for Crimea, if 90% of their cities wouldn't be in total c***. Only Moscow/St.Peterburg lives good, even outskirts of Sochi is a big ****hole. 

And it's not like 2-3-4 billion once will make their lives better.

Tourists from EU won't come to Crimea anymore due to Russian visas, there's a big loss for ya.


----------



## Kagekatsu (Apr 7, 2014)

*Pro-Russian protestors declare Donetsk to be independent*

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928

Time for round 2 it seems.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 7, 2014)

> Pro-Russian protesters who seized the regional government building in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk are reported to have declared a "people's republic".
> 
> *The rebels have called for a referendum on secession from Ukraine by 11 May.*



Let's see how this goes.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 7, 2014)

Another referendum? And a month from now? This should be interesting. Only a few days ago our foreign minster said that behind the curtains the Russians have started to be more open to diplomacy, and that there's an air of detente...


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 8, 2014)

A silly Russian soviet 
Dreamt Napoleon he would be,
Then he went and broke his promise,
It was made in Germany.
He shook hands with America
And eternal peace he swore,
Naughty boy, he talked of peace
While he prepared for war.​


----------



## rajin (Apr 8, 2014)

russia is full on entertainment and usa is not much anywhere. enjoy this decade and its delicacies. this is why human world is so interesting.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Apr 8, 2014)

Russia is on the offense !
USA keeps talking.... 

c'mon guys you can do better then that


----------



## Undertaker (Apr 8, 2014)

Oh, man! I hope Putin doesn`t try to annex other parts or move soldiers there. I didn`t like how the Crimea thing was rushed. And now this...


----------



## Mael (Apr 8, 2014)

Shin said:


> Russia is on the offense !
> USA keeps talking....
> 
> c'mon guys you can do better then that



Why do you keep saying stupid shit?


----------



## Arishem (Apr 8, 2014)

Ahahahaha, now Putin's men are resorting to straight up terrorism.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BUs2FxAYHg[/YOUTUBE]
These black-clad "freedom" fighters have taken hostages in Luhansk and claim that the building they're in is rigged to blow in response to any incursions. I don't think Vlad can use the local militia excuse this time.


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 8, 2014)

Meanwhile in Ukraine Parliament...

Brawl ensues.

[YOUTUBE]VrFJDyuFX-E[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 8, 2014)

What a mess.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Apr 8, 2014)

Mael said:


> Why do you keep saying stupid shit?




Why so mad... and why did you reply to me.

If I say stupid shit and you reply to it, what does that make you ?


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Apr 8, 2014)

Shin said:


> Why so mad... and why did you reply to me.
> 
> If I say stupid shit and you reply to it, what does that make you ?



Well it makes him a person responding to an individual that says stupid things.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 8, 2014)

Shin said:


> Russia is on the offense !
> USA keeps talking....
> 
> *c'mon guys you can do better then that*



You mean talk even more ???

No seriously, the US is very limited in action. Russia defend what they see as their vital interest. The US won't risk a conflict with a country like Russia for a piece of Ukrainian territory populated by russophones.
The US want Ukraine in this sphere of influence but won't risk a conflict with Russia for that.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Apr 8, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Well it makes him a person responding to an individual that says stupid things.



I already know you're smart enough to tell what I meant so I don't get your reply....



Le M?le Dominant said:


> You mean talk even more ???
> 
> No seriously, the US is very limited in action. Russia defend what they see as their vital interest. The US won't risk a conflict with a country like Russia for a piece of Ukrainian territory populated by russophones.
> The US want Ukraine in this sphere of influence but won't risk a conflict with Russia for that.



No I want some damn actions.

I know that and I feel that the USA should not even have a say in this Ukraine was not even apart of NATO


----------



## Sanity Check (Apr 8, 2014)

Shin said:


> I know that and I feel that the USA should not even have a say in this Ukraine was not even apart of NATO



IAWTC.

The united states can't resolve its own affairs without government shutdowns & debt ceiling raises.

Meddling in foreign affairs is an overstep.  Worse than a waste of time / energy.

There's no way those in office will fix circumstances in Crimea, anymore than they fixed healthcare.

The system is dysfunctional.  The rational option is to do nothing.


----------



## rajin (Apr 9, 2014)

europe down . usa economy down and who has time/sources/energy/money to waste on a ukraine? every nation is facing their own trouble now and its not like nato isn't there.
in long run russia will face the consequences of all the annexation if they not diversify their economy. controlling poor failed states is really a risky business. 

usa govt not getting into fight is actually doing good for its own ppl.


----------



## ExoSkel (Apr 9, 2014)

*Donetsk declares itself from Kiev government,  date for referendum to join Russia set*



> *The eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk has reportedly declared itself independent from the central government in Kiev and set a date for a referendum on joining Russia, according to local media reports.*
> 
> The local government building was taken over on Sunday night by pro-Russian activists, and on Monday the Russian news agency Itar Tass reported that “members of the regional legislature” had moved to declare the city and its surrounds the Donetsk People’s Republic.
> 
> ...


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 9, 2014)

Nah, something makes me think that Russia got what they wanted and won't bother with anything else.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 9, 2014)

The pro-Russians could be doing this on their own too, thinking that they have Moscow's support. Who knows. I also had the impression Russia got what it wanted, more or less, and was ready to let it be. But Kremlin doesn't even have to be actively spurring the separatists, they're encouraged by what has happened before. And if they really wish to join Russia, then Russia will have hard time saying no to that either.


----------



## ExoSkel (Apr 9, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Nah, something makes me think that Russia got what they wanted and won't bother with anything else.


Nah. Russia will be happy to take over territories that wants to separate from Ukraine and join Russia. Putin will welcome it.

Nothing stops the Russian grizzly bear.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 10, 2014)

The guys in Lughansk are seriously armed, the Gov gave them time to give up the guns or face retaliation. The time expires tonight. 

Putin will only annex someone at this point if a particular state will just detach themselves on their own. He'll not risk anymore.

The guys who were coming from Russia got tired themselves.

In other news Burger King wants to come to Crimea. Last week McDonalds closed their shops in Crimea.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 10, 2014)

Russia is both in a good and in a bad position here, but mostly good. If they really hold that referendum, and there's no obvious Russian meddling involved like in Crimea, then Moscow doesn't have but to say "well yeah, if you really want..." and show green light. Others will surely rage about them not respecting Ukraine's territorial unity and constitution etc. 

Of course, if they actually wanted to let this all die down and get friendly again with the money in the west, then it's more awkward.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 10, 2014)

Amanda said:


> Others will surely rage about them not respecting Ukraine's territorial unity and *constitution* etc.



So when does it is it actually in force? When it came to forming a new government, no one in the West cared about it, but when it comes to Crimea it suddenly is a thing


----------



## Amanda (Apr 10, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> So when does it is it actually in force? When it came to forming a new government, no one in the West cared about it, but when it comes to Crimea it suddenly is a thing




Don't ask me, I'm not the one making up the western claims. But Kiev surely won't like it if more regions leave, nor will EU and USA. It's not really about the technicalities, but simply Kiev and the west not wanting Russia to win anything more, and Ukraine to lose anything more.


----------



## Mael (Apr 10, 2014)

*Russian Economy Hammered by Massive Money Drain*



> While Russian President Vladimir Putin plots his next move into Ukraine, capital is fleeing Russia.
> 
> Russia's central bank this week confirmed that some $64 billion in assets held by Russians headed for the exits in the first three months of this year ? roughly matching the total for all of 2013. That amounts to roughly 12 percent of Russia's gross domestic product.
> 
> ...



http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/russian-economy-hammered-massive-money-drain-n77251


----------



## Pliskin (Apr 10, 2014)

^

Geez, its almost like making your nation seem like an incalculable risk factor solely dependent on 'Based Putins' whims is bad for business. Who could have guessed?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 11, 2014)

> *Satellite images reveal Russian military buildup on Ukraine's border*
> 
> Nato has released satellite images of the Russian military buildup on Ukraine’s eastern border: a powerful concentration of fighter planes, helicopters, artillery, infantry and special forces which officials say could be ready to move with just 12 hours notice.
> 
> ...



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/10/satellite-images-russian-military-ukraine-border


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2014)

I'd almost want the EU to quickly incorporate Ukraine into their fold and immediately see Putin start to back away from this increasingly apparent invasion plan he's got going on.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 11, 2014)

I'm more concerned with them calling our bluff.


----------



## Mael (Apr 11, 2014)

It was shrewd and I admit it.

We're not going to go all out to defend Ukraine.  Once Putin gets stupid like with Latvia, Moldova, or Finland, then you'll see no more bluffs.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Apr 12, 2014)

> MOSCOW (AP) — Vladimir Putin warned Europe on Thursday that it may face a shutdown of Russian natural gas supplies if it fails to help Ukraine settle its enormous Russian gas bill — a debt that far exceeds a bailout package offered by the International Monetary Fund.
> 
> The Russian president's letter to 18 mostly Eastern European leaders, released Thursday by the Kremlin, aimed to divide the 28-nation European Union and siphon off to Russia the billions that the international community plans to lend to Ukraine. It was all part of Russia's efforts to retain control over its struggling neighbor, which is teetering on the verge of financial ruin and facing a pro-Russian separatist mutiny in the east.
> 
> ...


Full Read: 
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-ukraine-debt-threatens-europe-gas-supplies-171658976--finance.html


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 12, 2014)

Mael said:


> I'd almost want the EU to quickly incorporate Ukraine into their fold and immediately see Putin start to back away from this increasingly apparent invasion plan he's got going on.



Why?  Why should the EU defend and incorporate a country that turned its back on an agreement that the EU brokered in good faith.  The moment the opposition at the time broke the agreement the EU should have washed their hands with the Ukraine and gone "We tried to help but you fucked up.  Good luck in your endeavors." 

Fact is neither Ukraine nor Russia is white in this.  Ukraine government lacks any legitimacy.  It was not elected and turned it's back on an agreement that would have brought in elections this year. And at the same time has some very unsavoury people in their high offices right now.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 12, 2014)

Mael said:


> It was shrewd and I admit it.
> 
> We're not going to go all out to defend Ukraine.  Once Putin gets stupid like with Latvia, Moldova, or Finland, then you'll see no more bluffs.




Hopefully. I am with you on this. Russia shouldn't snoop where it wasn't asked to, so I hope that if they keep this, they do it because it was requested.


----------



## Undertaker (Apr 13, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Putin told the leaders that a shutdown of Russian gas supplies will increase the risk of Ukraine siphoning off gas intended for the rest of Europe and will make it difficult to accumulate sufficient reserves to guarantee uninterrupted delivery to European customers next winter.



And the soap opera continues.

It will be like this Russia forgives some debt Ukraine forgets the Crimea. Unofficially. But who knows these politics can say trading people and their homes for money is a good idea. The whole thing is a mess.

It`s a good scenario to deescalate the issue. And Ukrainian nationalists will have a reason to be attention whores for years. Happy end?


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 13, 2014)

*u*



Undertaker said:


> And the soap opera continues.
> 
> It will be like this Russia forgives some debt Ukraine forgets the Crimea. Unofficially. But who knows these politics can say trading people and their homes for money is a good idea. The whole thing is a mess.
> 
> ...


Too bad that it's only going to escalate more and more now. Russian-pro are the ones seeking attention now.


----------



## Jin-E (Apr 13, 2014)

Mael said:


> It was shrewd and I admit it.
> 
> We're not going to go all out to defend Ukraine.  Once Putin gets stupid like with Latvia, Moldova, or Finland, then you'll see no more bluffs.



TBH, i only see that happening in Latvia's case and only because it's a NATO member.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 13, 2014)

Latvia needs to sort itself out though.  You can't just refuse citizenship of 17% of your country just because of their ethnicity.  EU and NATO should have put that on a precondition of entering.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 13, 2014)

Expect Russia not to invade, but to offer Russian citizenship to Latvians and wind up looking like the hero.


----------



## olaf (Apr 14, 2014)

> (Reuters) - Ukraine's authorities plan to launch a "full-scale anti-terrorist operation" involving the army against pro-Russian separatist militants, the acting president said on Sunday.


[reuters]

like everyone thought, ukriane government will protect (or at least try to) their eastern teritories, unlike crimea


Undertaker said:


> It will be like this Russia forgives some debt Ukraine forgets the Crimea. Unofficially. But who knows these politics can say trading people and their homes for money is a good idea. The whole thing is a mess.


I've heard that one of the justifications for raising gas prices for Ukraine is sth like "We gave you dicount cause you rented us military bases in Crimea, since you don't have those bases anymore why should we give you discount"

lol


Undertaker said:


> It`s a good scenario to *deescalate *the issue. And Ukrainian nationalists will have a reason to be attention whores for years. Happy end?


why would putin want this to deescalate. he wants more and more, why would he stop?


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 14, 2014)

To my reasoning, Russia was footing the bill because they were close, now that they've distanced themselves, Russia's telling the European Union to take up the tab in their stead.

Man, how stressing.


----------



## olaf (Apr 14, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> To my reasoning, Russia was footing the bill because they were close, now that they've distanced themselves, Russia's telling the European Union to take up the tab in their stead.


not really

I mean they're telling UE to help reanimate Ukrainian markets since they don't plan to do that anymore and they want to get all the money they put there back ASAP (which means that they're not really interested in getting their money, but in fucking up ukraine financialy)

if putin acted like he wanted to calm things down this would be a surprise, but since he doesn't it isn't.

and the new contracts gazprom has with Ukraine (the one which janukovich singned when people were protesting at maidan) allows gazprom to change prices quite offten (like every 2-3 months if I remember right). But gazprom also said that they will honour every contract that they have with everybod that isn't Ukraine (read as: we won't change prices)


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 14, 2014)

Then it's more problematic than I thought.


----------



## Saishin (Apr 14, 2014)

> *UN meeting told Russia is massing 40,000 troops on the border
> *
> 
> Russia has been accused of intimidation and aggression as deadline approaches for separatists to disarm
> ...


----------



## Undertaker (Apr 14, 2014)

olaf said:


> why would putin want this to deescalate. he wants more and more, why would he stop?



If he wants more and more then he is crazy. Russia got the most desired piece. I doubt other parts worth the risks. The only thing that makes sense now is to keep the chaos (but do not escalate) and undermine anti-Russian authorities before the elections.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 14, 2014)

> "This is in addition to the 25,000 Russia troops based illegally in Crimea," he added.



And this is the point where I can't take this article serious anymore.That's just agitation against Russia, they leased Sewastopol and are allowed to deploy this number.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 14, 2014)

Gah, NATO should offer special forces to help storm these building that have been sized post-haste.



Aikuro said:


> And this is the point where I can't take this article serious anymore.That's just agitation against Russia, they leased Sewastopol and are allowed to deploy this number.



That agreement is contingent on Russia not seizing or annexing the territory, both of which they have done.

Everything Russia does there is illegal, excluding withdrawing back to their own damn country.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 14, 2014)

Ukrainians protesting now next to the Parliament and burning tires. They are demanding the current president and self defense minister to retire due to their indecisiveness over the current situation.

Over past few days the situation in East Ukraine became just like in Kiev over past few months. Pro-Russians taking over all administrations and getting armed with guns taken.

There's also reports of 'little green people' (just like in Crimea) around state of Dombass. 'Little green people' is the name given to armed soldiers with no crests on their uniforms. They also don't answer any questions that the reporters ask them.


----------



## olaf (Apr 14, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Over past few days the situation in East Ukraine became just like in Kiev over past few months. Pro-Russians taking over all administrations and getting armed with guns taken.
> 
> There's also reports of 'little green people' (just like in Crimea) around state of Dombass. 'Little green people' is the name given to armed soldiers with no crests on their uniforms. They also don't answer any questions that the reporters ask them.


except it's not really like in Kiev, not only numbers are different (even in the big pro russian cities, those pro russian protests are surprisingly small, whatever you say about Crimea people there did like to show their support for Russia)

and anothere thing, all those 'civilans' taking control of government buildings/police stations are strangely coordinated. Because how else you explain the fact that most of those smaller cities where it happened are important from logistical point of view (train nodes, etc)

and so many of those civilains look like those "green people" from crimea (which turned out to be russian soldiers)

so very like Kiev


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 15, 2014)

[dailymotion]x1o37wc_vladimir-poutine-il-est-de-mauvais-ton-de-lire-les-lettres-d-autrui-11-04-14_news?start=108[/dailymotion]


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 15, 2014)

olaf said:


> except it's not really like in Kiev, not only numbers are different (even in the big pro russian cities, those pro russian protests are surprisingly small, whatever you say about Crimea people there did like to show their support for Russia)
> 
> and anothere thing, all those 'civilans' taking control of government buildings/police stations are strangely coordinated. Because how else you explain the fact that most of those smaller cities where it happened are important from logistical point of view (train nodes, etc)
> 
> ...



Well I meant as heated up as it was in Kiev  . Not the situation.

Russians look like more savage version anyway. They don't just take over buildings, they just build them for lulz and shout some really idiotic things.

As for savege things then this is the example:



It's in Lithuanian, but you can google translate it, video in the bottom (can't copy links on the mobile from YouTube)
Briefly about it: One guy gives interview to Russian channel. He starts that Ukrainian government should give freedom to have a referendum in east Ukraine, they themselves should step down and all other things you would expect from someone pro-Russian. The crowd supports him with shouts. Then he continues - He says that he doesn't understand why Russia is getting involved and sending soldiers to east-Ukraine. The crowd doesn't like it and someone shouts, what soldiers is he talking about. Then they proceed to beat him... A lot... *one of their own*

And this video: 

Some Russian-pro women and a tough guy (who seems like he's a barber from Kiev - I certainly wouldn't want him doing my hair) asking for help from Russia. Well you could say - so what... Until they proceed saying that everyone should start burning Ukrainians and how everyone's feeling oppressed by them... Oh the idiocy you hear 

All videos are in original language.

Crimea was sooo oppressed by Ukraine, that there were 6 Ukrainian schools... Oh and 600 Russian ones.. Oh the great oppression... They eat our babies...


----------



## ch1p (Apr 15, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> > Vladimir Putin warned Europe on Thursday that it may face a shutdown of Russian natural gas supplies if it fails to help Ukraine settle its enormous Russian gas bill ? a debt that far exceeds a bailout package offered by the International Monetary Fund.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Putin having fun squeezing Europe's balls.

Even so, Europe isn't going to pay for anything. A bailot is just a business they always profit from, no exceptions, paying / forgiving debt is not.

Ukraine is so screwed. I have no idea how they're going to come out of this.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 15, 2014)

Ukrainian forces storming pro-Russian forces around Sloviansk.

4 Russians killed so far.

Ukraine finally standing on their own


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 15, 2014)

> *Ukrainian troops storm Kramatorsk airfield, Sloviansk*
> 
> Espresso TV's correspondent on the ground at Kramatorsk airfield in Donetsk Oblast reports that the elite Omega unit of the Interior Ministry has taken control of the airfield.
> 
> ...






> *Russia's 45th Airborne Regiment operating in eastern Ukraine*
> 
> While attending the funeral of a slain SBU captain in Poltava today, First Deputy Prime Minister Vitaliy Yarema said *several hundred armed Russian military soldiers are in Luhansk, Donetsk and Kharkiv oblasts who were covertly and gradually sent there over a long period of time*, reported local online news source Poltavashchyna.
> 
> ...





> *Shooting continues in Kramatorsk, four Kremlin-backed terrorists dead*
> 
> Although Interfax Ukraine is reporting that the shooting has ended in Kramatorsk where an anti-terrorist operation is underway, a reporter from the AP recently heard "heavy gunfire."
> 
> ...


----------



## Mael (Apr 15, 2014)

I wouldn't necessarily call the pro-Russian folks terrorists.  That's just screaming old school CCCP semantics.

However to deny Russia's absolute involvement with troops and logistical backing of the separatists is to excel in turning two blind eyes to the situation.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 15, 2014)

Crunch time.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 15, 2014)

They won't let us get bored, will they?

Veni vidi something something.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 15, 2014)

Veni, vermini, vomui - I came, I got ratted, I threw up


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 15, 2014)

Mael said:


> I wouldn't necessarily call the pro-Russian folks terrorists.  That's just screaming old school CCCP semantics.
> 
> However to deny Russia's absolute involvement with troops and logistical backing of the separatists is to excel in turning two blind eyes to the situation.



If I was Russia I would get involved, hell europe should get involve telling those now in power to back down.  Why would anyone support a group that has proved they are untrustworthy when it comes to deal making.

Day 1) Sign deal to keep Yanu in power until elections and promise for financial support.

Day 2) Break agreement but somehow the west still support said group even though they gave them the middle finger.

Best thing to do is let the two countries fight it out themselves and sit back.


----------



## xenopyre (Apr 15, 2014)

> The US military said a Russian fighter jet made multiple, close-range passes near an American warship in the Black Sea for more than 90 minutes on Saturday amid escalating tensions in the region.
> 
> The official said the Russian Su-24 aircraft, or Fencer, made 12 passes, flying within 1,000 yards (900 metres) of the USS Donald Cook, a navy destroyer, at about 500 feet (150 metres) above sea level.
> 
> ...


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/14/russian-fighter-jet-repeated-passes-us-warship-black-sea


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 15, 2014)

Russians are trying a covert takeover I see. Slowly taking piece by piece so the media doesn't notice too much.

O well I'm sure Obama has a celebrity to meet.

In any regard Their economy is taking a hit from this adventure


----------



## Mael (Apr 15, 2014)

And you expect Obama to do...what?


----------



## olaf (Apr 15, 2014)

Mael said:


> And you expect Obama to do...what?


sanction stuff I guess

which wouldn't be a bad idea, only if he could sell it to his own people (same problem with EU sanctions, nobody even wants to try explaining why the negative backlash would be worth it)

my bf has to remind me that this is  basicaly war, even though nobody really wants to call it that way. Russians soaked eastern Ukraine with specnaz and now are hoping that nobody in USA or EU will notice

Because seriously, unless it's "100k russian soldiers marches through ukrainian border" it won't be on the front page


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 15, 2014)

What's happening in Ukraine reeks of Red October all over again.


----------



## Chelydra (Apr 15, 2014)

Mael said:


> And you expect Obama to do...what?



I expect him to take a harsher line and enact sanctions to grind Russia's economy to a halt. I also want him to start moving troops in to help support the pro Western Ukrainian government. Harsh action needs to be taken to put Russia back in its place.

That said it seems Ukraine is growing some balls:





> Kharkiv, Ukraine (CNN) -- Ukraine's military launched its first, formal military action Tuesday against pro-Russian separatists, with troops retaking an airport in the eastern Donetsk region after a reported clash with armed gunmen.
> 
> The military action came a day after a Ukrainian ultimatum expired for protesters to lay down their arms, a move that appeared to signal an escalation in the crisis that has sparked a diplomatic row between Ukraine, its Western allies and Russia.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 15, 2014)

> In one video, Mikhail Dobkin, a presidential candidate for the Party of Regions, the party of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, *had flour and green liquid thrown at him* as he addressed crowds





[youtube]oTjXb5JmPpQ[/youtube]


----------



## ch1p (Apr 15, 2014)

Chelydra said:


> That said it seems Ukraine is growing some balls:



I can already smell it. Russia decides to protect the pro-russians because they're being oppressed by Kiev. Here comes mother russia's support.

I'm on the fence if that would be suicidal or not. I thought invading Crimea would be suicidal but Russia did it relatively unscathed. Can it pull the same stunt twice? I don't think so, but then it's Putin and it's the EU / US.

It would be for the best if there isn't interference from EU / US outside of sanctions, otherwise it really does give Russia that excuse to go protect the "oppressed" and things will escalate very quickly. However, if Russia goes in, then we should go in, even if finally taking measures still sounds like a naive thought to me.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 16, 2014)

Russia has the west by the balls there's nothing they can do


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 16, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> [youtube]oTjXb5JmPpQ[/youtube]



They didn't know how to call the 'green liquid' other way, huh 

That stuff takes a long time to come off...


----------



## Saishin (Apr 17, 2014)

*Putin says impossible for Europe to stop buying Russian gas*



> (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Thursday it would not be possible for Europe, which is trying to cut its reliance on Russian energy, to completely stop buying Russian gas.
> 
> Putin also said that the transit via Ukraine is the most dangerous element in Europe's gas supply system, and that he was
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/us-russia-putin-gas-idUSBREA3G0Q520140417


----------



## Mael (Apr 17, 2014)

Lol...silly Putes.

US and possibly Israeli gas is around the corner.


----------



## Shodai (Apr 17, 2014)

I personally hope we go one step further and boot every single rich Russian property tycoon out of London

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27032149


----------



## Son of Goku (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> Lol...silly Putes.
> 
> US and possibly Israeli gas is around the corner.



Silly Maeli...




Putin knows.


----------



## Mael (Apr 17, 2014)

Not YET in sight.

Watch what happens when the US becomes an exporter.  Russia's clout goes bye.

The key word is YET.  Putin is just trying to live out the old glorious Stalinist days.


----------



## dr_shadow (Apr 17, 2014)




----------



## Son of Goku (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> Not YET in sight.
> 
> Watch what happens when the US becomes an exporter.  Russia's clout goes bye.
> 
> The key word is YET.  Putin is just trying to live out the old glorious Stalinist days.



Not yet in SIGHT. 




It will take years and when/if it happens gas won't as cheap as it is now. For Europe AND for the US.


Oh Putin is just defending Russia's vital interests, nothing really stalinistic about that. But unlike the times when the US has done it or still does, Russia' s kill count is marginal.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Apr 17, 2014)

That's not even a polish flag lel.

same goes for the other cartoon i saw somewhere today.

Good thing our Merkel was supporting to buy more gas from russia not too long ago. "russia is a trustworthy partner" yada yada. see how well this played out.


----------



## Saishin (Apr 17, 2014)

Shodai said:


> I personally hope we go one step further and boot every single rich Russian property tycoon out of London
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27032149


And you think the City will allow that?


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 17, 2014)

Mouais.....the russian gas, it's a rest of Europe's problem.......


....just show how it's vital for a nations to be independent as much as possible on sensitive issues.....


vive le nucl?aire..... et les haineux, allez vous faire foutre......


----------



## Garcher (Apr 17, 2014)

Well, most European countries need to import their energy. To be depending on someone else is no real alternative, the U.S. have proven more than one time now they aren't Europe's _friends_.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 17, 2014)

Putin sounds like a creepy drug dealer talking to a crack whore.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2014)

*Russian Seperatists in E. Ukraine ordering Jews to register*



> Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Ukrainian and Israeli media.
> 
> Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.
> 
> ...




So, about those who thought calling Putin the new Hitler was hyperbole...


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Apr 17, 2014)

Inb4 WWIII....


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 17, 2014)

It's funny because all the pro-Russian camp bitches about is how the Revolutionaries were Nazi's, yet the pro-Russian camp does this.

Anyway Israel has already offered to fly all of the Jews out of the Crimea and East Ukraine (there really aren't many). That is how I see this ending.


----------



## wibisana (Apr 17, 2014)

this article jump to conclusion.
I mean
1. how we sure they are nut just riding the train? some anti-jew see opportunity and make this. and people jumped to conclusion that Russian is new Nazi. how we know that they are under command of Kremlin btw? not just some rouge Org turn things up.

2. how we sure that Jews not making this up so US would actually involved? 

why people just assume that Putin is mind behind this


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 17, 2014)

wibisana said:


> this article jump to conclusion.
> I mean
> 1. how we sure they are nut just riding the train? some anti-jew see opportunity and make this. and people jumped that Russian is new Nazi. how we know that they are under command of Kremlin btw? not just some rouge Org turn things up.
> 
> ...



This is why nobody takes the Putin-humpers seriously


----------



## Tsukiyomi (Apr 17, 2014)

What is it with people and fucking with the jews?


----------



## wibisana (Apr 17, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> This is why nobody takes the Putin-humpers seriously



I am just giving other possible scenario btw. you people just jumped to conclusion w/o solid evidence


----------



## Shodai (Apr 17, 2014)

Is Ukraine in civil war yet

This could be the biggest even to happen since 9/11 if it gets out of control


----------



## Mael (Apr 17, 2014)

wibisana said:


> I am just giving other possible scenario btw. you people just jumped to conclusion w/o solid evidence



Do you remember the pogroms on Jews back in the early 1900s and Stalinist Russia?

Of course you don't. 

Russia isn't well known for any form of tolerance.


----------



## wibisana (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> Do you remember the pogroms on Jews back in the early 1900s and Stalinist Russia?
> 
> Of course you don't.
> 
> Russia isn't well known for any form of tolerance.



so this prove Putin order the separatist to do that? for me it doesn't prove anything
see I wont side anyone. but if i were you i wont jump to conclusion it is all Putin's work.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2014)

wibisana said:


> so this prove Putin order the separatist to do that? for me it doesn't prove anything
> see I wont side anyone. but if i were you i wont jump to conclusion it is all Putin's work.


He probably didn't.

What he did do was open the pandora's box of far-right Russian crazy and have his spec-ops encourage em to go nuts.


----------



## wibisana (Apr 17, 2014)

Sunuvmann said:


> He probably didn't.
> 
> What he did do was open the pandora's box of far-right Russian crazy and have his spec-ops encourage em to go nuts.



yeah agree with that


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 17, 2014)

Tsukiyomi said:


> What is it with people and fucking with the jews?



They're square pegs for people who only see Swastika shaped holes.


----------



## Mael (Apr 17, 2014)

wibisana said:


> so this prove Putin order the separatist to do that? for me it doesn't prove anything
> see I wont side anyone. but if i were you i wont jump to conclusion it is all Putin's work.



And you don't think he's got PSYOPS stirring all this shit up?


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Apr 17, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> This is why nobody takes the Putin-humpers seriously





Megaharrison said:


> It's funny because all the pro-Russian camp bitches about is how the Revolutionaries were Nazi's, yet the pro-Russian camp does this.
> 
> Anyway Israel has already offered to fly all of the Jews out of the Crimea and East Ukraine (there really aren't many). That is how I see this ending.



Mega what is the difference between a Jew and a Zionist Jew? I look up Zionism all the time but I can't really get a clear definition on it. Is it bad? Is it good?


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> And you don't think he's got PSYOPS stirring all this shit up?



So you do believe in stuff like that?


----------



## Jin-E (Apr 17, 2014)

Tsukiyomi said:


> What is it with people and fucking with the jews?



Old habits die hard.


----------



## Jagger (Apr 17, 2014)

In a few weeks, you will see how Jews suddenly "disappear" from the city to work at factories.


----------



## wibisana (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> And you don't think he's got PSYOPS stirring all this shit up?



maybe but we need solid proof for that, because someone's thought wont count in any court.

there are 3 possibilities 
as Suny mentioned the 1st in OP that Putin behind this
I add 2 other possibilities 
1. some rouge Org using the opportunity.
2. Jews them selves making this up.

or thoughts are counted as solid evidence in US?


----------



## Mael (Apr 17, 2014)

Why would Jews be making this up...why would NON-ISRAELI JEWS be making this up?

There's reasonable suspicion and then there's stupidity.



Jersey Shore Jesus said:


> So you do believe in stuff like that?



Because it's a military operation.  I don't believe in the dumb shit FBI conspiracies you like to cook up.


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> Because it's a military operation.  I don't believe in the dumb shit FBI conspiracies you like to cook up.



Its all the same thing really.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 17, 2014)

wibisana said:


> 1. some rouge Org using the opportunity.



Fucking Greenpeace again!


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2014)

Jersey Shore Jesus said:


> Mega what is the difference between a Jew and a Zionist Jew? I look up Zionism all the time but I can't really get a clear definition on it. Is it bad? Is it good?


Zionism is basically a desire for there to be a jewish homeland in their ancestral home of Israel. Its a political movement just like any other. You can be not jewish and still be a zionist.

Mind you, of course there are dicks in any movement. Which a lot of the settlers are. Like in , and I encourage you to as well, there was a settler who said because the bible said the ancient state of Israel once included parts of now Syria, Israel should go and annex part of that as well. Which is fucking dumb.

But yeah, its basically a political philosophy with the purpose of encouraging the creation, and now defense of the state of Israel within the middle east as a place that jews can have sanctuary, being a nation without a country for many a millennium.

Jews though are basically a people/culture based on that Abrahamic religion. Pretty much the whole Old Testament is the story of that nation and the (imo mythology) stuff they believed. Since then, a lot of shit has happened to them and they got scattered around the world. But much of the culture has prevailed. Its basically a nation just like any other. Like say the French being rooted in the tribes of Gaul. And Germany being the Germanic tribes. Jews were the Israelite tribes.

And so on.

So you can be a jew without being a zionist. In fact, there's a lot of crackpot ultra-religious jews who aren't. Because they don't think they're worthy of having the state of Israel without the messiah (not Jesus, fuck off) having come and as the king of jews leading them back. Or some shit. They're nutjobs anyway.


----------



## wibisana (Apr 17, 2014)

Mael said:


> Why would Jews be making this up...why would NON-ISRAELI JEWS be making this up?
> 
> There's reasonable suspicion and then there's stupidity.



even how unlikely it is (I admit it is very unlikely) but we cant just closed the chance it could happened.

as I said I just giving possible scenario. It was make more sense than jump to conclusion Putin did it.
as Religious people claim god did it w/o solid proof (or just because thoughts)


----------



## Godly Giraffe - King of the Uverworld (Apr 17, 2014)

OP is a kike, no?

Predictable.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2014)

Addendum: Some 'zionists', especially the crazy fucking christians are for the state of Israel because they think that's biblical prophecy for the end of days.

Most jews who are zionists (and not religious crackpots) are for Israel simply because they should have a nation state by jews for jews. Because they have lived at the 'hospitality' of other nations for centuries. And most of the times to pretty bad ends. And so the reason for Israel is a pragmatic decision to take their security into their own hands.


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 17, 2014)

People talking about Zionism now is always weird and confusing because there is an Israel. I mean are you against it? Against it being a Bionically defined state? Against wanting to bring more Jews there? 

It sort of feel like people feeling really strongly about whether they are for or against the Royal House of Stuart. At this point it's kind of irrelevant.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 17, 2014)

Either way if it is just some rogue idiot handing out leaflets or actually part of the forces that have taken over some public buildings it is disturbing that such views are still out there.  

Granted that those who claim to be in charge of Donetsk region have outright denied involvement as well.  But considering how volatile the situation is we really can't tell who truely is linked to who in the seperatist web.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 17, 2014)

I wonder what is the place of jews in Ukrainian society and how there are linked to Israel.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2014)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> I wonder what is the place of jews in Ukrainian society and how there are linked to Israel.



Most ollied the fuck out of there after the pogroms, if they could.


----------



## Naya (Apr 17, 2014)

seriously, people, Kolomoyskiy is the head of Dnipropetrovsk region, how does that infringe upon Jews' interests?

This is no more than a provocation.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 17, 2014)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> vive le nucl?aire



Yeah, no. Good luck paying the bill to heat your home with pure electricity.


----------



## Shodai (Apr 17, 2014)

I think those commie bastards need some freedom


----------



## Scud (Apr 17, 2014)

Shodai said:


> I think those commie bastards need some freedom


Give it to them yourselves. We're busy with... stuff.


----------



## Sunuvmann (Apr 17, 2014)

Zaru said:


> Yeah, no. Good luck paying the bill to heat your home with pure electricity.


As a Floridian, I find the idea of people needing to ever heat their home, let alone doing so with gas, to be such an utterly foreign concept.

And heating your home? That's what putting the ACs on heat and space heaters are for.


----------



## Zaru (Apr 17, 2014)

Sunuvmann said:


> As a Floridian, I find the idea of people needing to ever heat their home, let alone doing so with gas, to be such an utterly foreign concept.
> 
> And heating your home? That's what putting the ACs on heat and space heaters are for.



It is, quite literally, a foreign concept

Good luck heating up those below water freezing temperatures to comfy room atmosphere


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Apr 17, 2014)

you guys all use gas to heat your homes ???


----------



## Evil Ghost Ninja (Apr 17, 2014)

I doubt this is legit.

From What I have been told the leaflets were handed out at just one synagogue and not through out the region. This was probably done by a few pro-west people to try and make the new Donetsk republic look bad.


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 17, 2014)

Actually the head of the Donetsk separatist has basically said while he denies involvement he can't rule out some extremists in his own group may have done it.  So basically we have no idea who is really responsible just that it is reprehensible.


----------



## Jeαnne (Apr 17, 2014)

what the fuck man


----------



## Tkae (Apr 17, 2014)

Son of Goku said:


> Silly Maeli...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Popular opinion in Germany supports Russia. They aren't even trying to find an alternative. 

#WithUsOrAgainstUs


----------



## Evil Ghost Ninja (Apr 17, 2014)

not euro, but a lot of people salvage scrap wood and burn that to heat their homes in my county.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Apr 18, 2014)

>needing to heat ur home
just wear more layers while inside u dumbasses


----------



## scaramanga (Apr 18, 2014)

Lol, somebody takes it seriously?


----------



## Saishin (Apr 18, 2014)

*Russia and West reach surprise deal on Ukraine crisis*



> Russia, Ukraine and the West have reached a compromise to try to ease the Ukrainian crisis, in a glimmer of hope for the former Soviet republic that risks splitting in two
> 
> Vladimir Putin has secured key concessions from Ukraine and its Western supporters as the Kremlin was offered a central role in determining the future of its neighbour and former client state.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 18, 2014)

Obama is doubtful of your puny Euro diplomacy


----------



## Shodai (Apr 18, 2014)

Aaaaaaand the separatists aren't going to abide by it


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27076226


----------



## Son of Goku (Apr 18, 2014)

Tkae said:


> Popular opinion in Germany supports Russia. They aren't even trying to find an alternative.
> 
> #WithUsOrAgainstUs



Who? Germans? Or Germany, i.e. the government? Cause they don't really see eye to eye about this matter.


----------



## Mael (Apr 18, 2014)

Shodai said:


> Aaaaaaand the separatists aren't going to abide by it
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27076226



Of course they aren't.  This is just a posturing Russian move.  They're removing themselves from the separatists so when the separatists won't budge people have a harder time linking it to Russia.


----------



## Shodai (Apr 18, 2014)

Is it time to liberate the Ukraine yet?


----------



## Mael (Apr 18, 2014)

Speak for yourself, Britty.


----------



## Shodai (Apr 18, 2014)

You can't taunt me all you want, you'll never dampen my American spirit


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 18, 2014)

So long as Russia doesn't back them it's just a matter of time until the Ukraine wipes the separatists out.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 18, 2014)

What about the Ukrainian APCs turning with Russia's side?


----------



## Mael (Apr 18, 2014)

The Pink Ninja said:


> So long as Russia doesn't back them it's just a matter of time until the Ukraine wipes the separatists out.



They'll back them...guaranteed.


----------



## Garcher (Apr 18, 2014)

You know what is funny? If people demonstrate for the EU they are demonstrators, if they demonstrate for Russia they are separatists. 

Anyway, I guess this is the first step of the right tendency


----------



## Shodai (Apr 18, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> You know what is funny? If people demonstrate for the EU they are demonstrators, if they demonstrate for Russia they are separatists.
> 
> Anyway, I guess this is the first step of the right tendency



The pro EU protesters didn't want the Ukraine to separate (SEPARATE? SEPARATISTS? GET IT?) nor did they declare Kiev its own republic separate from the rest of Ukraine

0/10 see me after class


----------



## Mael (Apr 18, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> You know what is funny? If people demonstrate for the EU they are demonstrators, if they demonstrate for Russia they are separatists.
> 
> Anyway, I guess this is the first step of the right tendency



How do you not understand that?

Ukrainians in an internationally-recognized nation, called Ukraine, want to have more autonomy in a breakaway section under Moscow's influence.

That's called separation.

Meanwhile those who wish to keep Ukraine united are merely demonstrating that they wish to do so without any national separation or fracturing.

Seriously.


----------



## scaramanga (Apr 18, 2014)

> The pro EU protesters didn't want the Ukraine to separate (SEPARATE? SEPARATISTS? GET IT?) nor did they declare Kiev its own republic separate from the rest of Ukraine
> 
> 0/10 see me after class





> How do you not understand that?
> 
> Ukrainians in an internationally-recognized nation, called Ukraine, want to have more autonomy in a breakaway section under Moscow's influence.
> 
> ...


 And why people have not right to choose in which country they want to live, lol?


----------



## Saishin (Apr 18, 2014)

Sunuvmann said:


> So, about those who thought calling Putin the new Hitler was hyperbole...


It seems some want to back to 70 years ago 

*Ukraine crisis: 'The last time someone wrote a text like that was under the Nazis'*


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 18, 2014)

Lol, the guys in Dombas were calling Kiev activists - nazi, now guess who just became a bigger one... Then again Shakhtar Doneck FC had a lot of problems because of racism, while Dynamo Kiev barely had them.

Also just take a look at this sorry pack of savages:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTdkY8tl2b0[/youtube]


Peaceful demonstrations... They about to kill anyone who even tries to oppose them. It wasn't like that in Kiev or west Ukrainian cities. Sure there was a couple of broken glasses, but they preserved the buildings for themselves, here they just burn it destroy it all together. Those guys gave up long time ago, but they kept going.


----------



## Mael (Apr 18, 2014)

scaramanga said:


> And why people have not right to choose in which country they want to live, lol?



The fuck you talking about, in English?


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 18, 2014)

He probably means that the people of eastern ukraine should be able to choose to live where they want and not be held in a country they don't want to be in by Kiev.


----------



## Mael (Apr 18, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> He probably means that the people of eastern ukraine should be able to choose to live where they want and not be held in a country they don't want to be in by Kiev.



That's still separatist by nature.

It's the same thing with the Confederates of the 1800s United States.  They were separatists and by the grace of whatever benevolent deity exists they lost.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 18, 2014)

There is another way of being able to live in the country you want; move there


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 18, 2014)

Or try making your family/town/city life better by doing smt usefull.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 24, 2014)

*Ukraine move in Sloviansk draws stern Putin warning*



> Ukrainian commandos have moved on the separatist stronghold of Sloviansk, prompting a warning of "consequences" from Russia's President Vladimir Putin.
> 
> At least two separatists were reported killed as the commandos, backed by armoured vehicles, cleared checkpoints on the outskirts of the eastern town.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27138300


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 25, 2014)

Quite a few small battles happening there, but nothing major. Prime minister of UA still says we're on the verge of big war if Russia continues sending infiltrators. Russia denies any involvement, even though there is clear evidence. Instead they accuse USA and Ukrainians of not doing enough to deescalate issue. In return USA accuses Russia of the same (and quite frankly all they do is talk for majority of the time).

Ukrainian helli was shot down today with a RPG.

Also it was found out that German company was responsible for training Russian soldiers, some of which infiltrating Ukraine. They were paid 100$ Millions to train certain units of Russian army. They were continuing doing so even during the Crimea occupation, but since then they pulled back. (Strolheim-type soldiers are coming from the east now!).

Also Governor from state of Dnepropetrovsk (owner of Paribas bank branch in Ukraine - Privatbank, Basketball Club Kiev "Budivelnik" and Gen.sponsor of BC Kauno "Žalgiris") is giving *Bounties* of 10,000$ for every Russian infiltrator that is brought to him (meaning the guys with Russian passports, not separatist who has Ukrainian passports). So far there was cheating on two occasions, with one being when woman called a Russian man a terrorist and demanded a bounty for him and the other time when a man brought in another man with a Russian passport. On first occasion the man turned out to be a brother of the woman who demanded bounty and on the second occasion it also turned out that two men were related as uncle and niece who already decided to share the money afterwards. No pay-outs were given out on these two occasions.


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Apr 25, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1L9LuAUYIU&list=UUFa_paUy6F2IMpUOtgZA1fg[/YOUTUBE]

This man has the only common sense left anymore...


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 25, 2014)

*Putin Admits Russian Soldiers Were In Crimea, Slams West For Role In Ukraine Crisis*



walkerandarazu said:


> Russia denies any involvement, even though there is clear evidence.



Well actually......*Putin Admits Russian Soldiers Were In Crimea, Slams West For Role In Ukraine Crisis* 


> MOSCOW (AP) ? To understand Russian President Vladimir Putin's intentions in Ukraine, it helps to pay close attention to his choice of words and his reading of history. Here is what Putin had to say Thursday in a nationally televised call-in program:
> 
> ___
> 
> ...


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 25, 2014)

> A 16-year old boy was beaten to death by Crimean Police officers for only speaking in Ukrainian.
> 
> A 16-year old student studying in Chernomorsk, Crimea went out on Easter Monday Evening with two of his friends. They went to a disco, everything was going well, but they overstayed a bit long. They decided to go back to their dorm. On their way back, they saw a passing police car, so since there were no busses running anymore, they decided to ask for a lift to their dorm. Unfortunately, police officers didn't liked that one of the students was talking in Ukrainian so they just started beating him up for no apparent reason... And just went too far...
> 
> ...





Google translate it for full report, but I've covered the most parts.

Now if it was a Russian kid killed, Russia would make all hell and shout "discrimination" left and right.

Also I guess we won't see this in Russian media...


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 25, 2014)

> The territory was handed over to Ukraine by the Bolsheviks in the 1920s. "God only knows why," Putin said.



Lol. And lol@icekrym. xD


----------



## Zaru (Apr 25, 2014)

Alright, some separatist retards are holding OSCE observers hostage. Great fucking job


----------



## Mael (Apr 25, 2014)

So the Bolsheviks gave Crimea to Ukraine in the 1920s?

Oh fuck you, Vlad.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 25, 2014)

Mael said:


> So the Bolsheviks gave Crimea to Ukraine in the 1920s?
> 
> Oh fuck you, Vlad.



Nah, he's talking about  (New Russia).


----------



## Mael (Apr 25, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> Nah, he's talking about  (New Russia).



Yep I just realized I misread it the first time.

Still, piss off Vlad.  Because everyone's favorite neighborhood Lenin was in power when Moscow did this doesn't mean you have the right to just act like it was something stupid or illogical.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 25, 2014)

Jersey Shore Jesus said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1L9LuAUYIU&list=UUFa_paUy6F2IMpUOtgZA1fg[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> This man has the only common sense left anymore...


That's so goddamn stupid I don't believe you actually post his idiocy here.


----------



## Hozukimaru (Apr 25, 2014)

That guy is stupid, Putin doesn't have a wife, he got divorced...


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 25, 2014)

*Ukraine crisis: Pentagon says Russian jets violated airspace*



> The US says Russian military aircraft have entered Ukrainian airspace on several occasions, amid rising tension in the east of the country.
> 
> A Pentagon spokesman called on Russia to "de-escalate the situation".
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/27167187
So much Foreplay just have the war already


----------



## Undertaker (Apr 26, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Also I guess we won't see this in Russian media...



Of course we won`t. Because anyone who knows post-soviet realities will laugh at this:


walkerandarazu said:


> On their way back, they saw a passing police car, so since there were no busses running anymore, they decided to ask for a lift to their dorm.



Asking police for a lift? What? Are they retards? 
The reporter should try harder next time if he/she wants to manipulate a story.


----------



## scaramanga (Apr 26, 2014)

Riots in Ukrainian army


*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]73inNKwW7C0[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]czKfbYLEKrw[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]BOX7S0CCirY[/YOUTUBE]




LolUkraine.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 26, 2014)

Oh Ukraine, you so screwed. 



Undertaker said:


> Asking police for a lift? What? Are they retards?
> The reporter should try harder next time if he/she wants to manipulate a story.




I don't know about the truthfulness of the story, but that part didn't sound particularly believable. That is, if the situation with the police is in Ukraine any similar to what it is in Russia.


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 26, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> Of course we won`t. Because anyone who knows post-soviet realities will laugh at this:
> 
> 
> Asking police for a lift? What? Are they retards?
> The reporter should try harder next time if he/she wants to manipulate a story.



Actually it's normal.
A lot of cops will turn you down, but you still hear stories in newspapers of people thanking them for helping out when they were lost and etc.
They're not obliged to do so, but it depends on your situation... And the kindness of officer.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 26, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Actually it's normal.
> A lot of cops will turn you down, but you still hear stories in newspapers of people thanking them for helping out when they were lost and etc.
> They're not obliged to do so, but it depends on your situation... And the kindness of officer.




I see. So the police isn't that intimidating in Ukraine?


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 26, 2014)

Amanda said:


> I see. So the police isn't that intimidating in Ukraine?



Did you watch the news during La Revolution?


----------



## Zaru (Apr 26, 2014)

Zaru said:


> Alright, some separatist retards are holding OSCE observers hostage. Great fucking job



Correction: The OSCE just said they actually WERE NATO spies and is pissed at the NATO for it. 

This is fucking amazing


----------



## The Pink Ninja (Apr 26, 2014)

Ha, okay, that is pretty funny.


----------



## Amanda (Apr 26, 2014)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Did you watch the news during La Revolution?




If you trust the police enough to willingly hitch a ride from them, then no, they don't sound as bad as certain other countries.



Zaru said:


> Correction: The OSCE just said they actually WERE NATO spies and is pissed at the NATO for it.
> 
> This is fucking amazing




Daaammmnnn.... :rofl


----------



## walkerandarazu (Apr 26, 2014)

Amanda said:


> I see. So the police isn't that intimidating in Ukraine?



No, actually I was just putting all police officers that I've seen in total on TV, Newspapers from various countries. Police in Ukraine (not riot police) is so so, some are good guys, some are nasty ones. Well kinda like everywhere else. Except Russia, they check your documents like 20 times a day and trying get bribes for almost nothing sometimes + beat you in station

Though I remember one officer in West Ukraine 5 years ago was taking off mobile phones of people he wpuld meet in night time. And he would just keep them, till one guy said about it press. He was fired, but his whole police station was protesting and said that they would quit if police officer would be fired.


Also obviously those guys weren't Nato spies... Probably.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 26, 2014)

Law enforcement in any ex-Soviet country is generally shit.


----------



## Jersey Shore Jesus (Apr 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That's so goddamn stupid I don't believe you actually post his idiocy here.



Fight me irl you know nothing.


----------



## Undertaker (Apr 27, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> They're not obliged to do so, but it depends on your situation... And the kindness of officer.



Of course. But group of young people asking police for a lift after some party? It sounds funny only in hangover films.



Megaharrison said:


> Law enforcement in any ex-Soviet country is generally shit.



Law enforcement in any ex-Soviet country is generally hardcore.



Zaru said:


> Correction: The OSCE just said they actually WERE NATO spies and is pissed at the NATO for it.
> 
> This is fucking amazing



I don`t see USA and EU commenting it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 27, 2014)

Jersey Shore Jesus said:


> Fight me irl you know nothing.


So now you're going internet tough guy? Let me guess, that person in that crappy video is you doing a ill informed webcam?


----------



## Arishem (Apr 27, 2014)

This is now the greatest monument erected in history.


----------



## Nordstrom (Apr 27, 2014)

If Spain does send troops to stop our independence, then I bet Mas will consider asking Russia for help


----------



## Arishem (Apr 27, 2014)

The dumbfuck separatists recorded an execution.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2f8u6OuhmA[/YOUTUBE]

In soviet russia, brotherly love means rape, torture, and murder.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 27, 2014)

Arishem said:


> This is now the greatest monument erected in history.



Holy crap, why can't the West have these kinds of amazing protesters.

Edit: yes I know it's fake but the concept is still epic.


----------



## makeoutparadise (Apr 28, 2014)

*Ukraine crisis: Kharkiv mayor Hennadiy Kernes shot*



> The mayor of Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine has been shot and critically wounded amid continuing unrest in the region.
> 
> Hennadiy Kernes was recovering after a two-hour operation to repair damage to the chest and abdomen, but his life remained in danger, his office said.
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27185085


----------



## Overwatch (Apr 28, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> Holy crap, why can't the West have these kinds of amazing protesters.
> 
> Edit: yes I know it's fake but the concept is still epic.



It wasn't fake. I live there.

Or are you referring to the monument itself being real instead of just spray painted?


----------



## Saishin (Apr 29, 2014)

> *EU imposes more sanctions on Russia*
> 
> (Reuters) - The European Union announced asset freezes and travel bans on 15 Russians and Ukrainians over Moscow's actions in Ukraine, but the measures were seen as less aggressive than sanctions imposed this week by the United States.
> 
> ...



http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA3S0F720140429


----------



## The Faceless Man (Apr 29, 2014)

More sanctions ?

yeah they sure care...


----------



## Mael (Apr 29, 2014)

Then what else would you have them do?  Or are you just being stupid?


----------



## Chelydra (Apr 29, 2014)

He has a point, Obama could stand to be much more aggressive here.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 29, 2014)

Playing Around with Zach galifinakas the day of the invasion didn't help


----------



## Nemesis (Apr 30, 2014)

Mael said:


> Then what else would you have them do?  Or are you just being stupid?



Stop picking a side and tell this undemocratic government in Ukraine to start the process of elections or be shown up as just a group of people without mandate.


----------



## Mider T (Apr 30, 2014)

Shin said:


> More sanctions ?
> 
> yeah they sure care...



...I don't think people realize just how much these sanctions are hurting a country whose economy was already shaky.  Especially the freezing of assets of rich guys in an oligarchy.


----------



## olaf (Apr 30, 2014)

you do know that 8th may is comming close, and if Putin wanted a day that would boost his invasion propaganda by 200% then he couldn't have better one


----------



## scaramanga (Apr 30, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]Hmv6LMMQygk[/YOUTUBE]
Battle for Maidan. Pro-ukrainians vs Pro-ukrainians. I have no idea wtf is going on.


----------



## Saishin (May 1, 2014)

> *Ukraine reinstates conscription as crisis deepens*
> 
> Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428


----------



## walkerandarazu (May 1, 2014)

Saw some Ukrainians having set a protesting 24/7 in London. Took pictures of most interesting posters:



All pictures are there, don't want to put them on here their size is like this:


----------



## Fiona (May 1, 2014)

imho Sanctions have the possibility to work quite well in certain situations, in others though it has the possibility of making a country more hostile and desperate. Depending on the severity of the sanctions of course.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 1, 2014)

Fiona said:


> imho Sanctions have the possibility to work quite well in certain situations, in others though it has the possibility of making a country more hostile and desperate. Depending on the severity of the sanctions of course.



Not in this case. Russia is no longer moving a finger. If Ukraine is unable to get the east back with the conscription, then Russia wins and so does Crimea.

I really wonder if people will still go with "Crimea didn't want Russia" with the amount of Russians in Eastern Ukraine.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 1, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Not in this case. Russia is no longer moving a finger. If Ukraine is unable to get the east back with the conscription, then Russia wins and so does Crimea.
> 
> I really wonder if people will still go with "Crimea didn't want Russia" with the amount of Russians in Eastern Ukraine.


Since the vote was rigged? Since the Crimeans were at gunpoint?


----------



## Fiona (May 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since the vote was rigged? Since the Crimeans were at gunpoint?



Source? 


If you are gonna make serious arguments like this, it pays to provide proof.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 1, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since the vote was rigged? Since the Crimeans were at gunpoint?



Since Russians make 60+ of the population?


----------



## Megaharrison (May 1, 2014)

Fiona said:


> Source?
> 
> 
> If you are gonna make serious arguments like this, it pays to provide proof.



Should be noted that back in November before all this began, only of  of Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia. The number was actually falling (it was 33% two years earlier), not increasing, which may explain why Russia wanted the peninsula so badly right now.

That sure changed fast once Putin held an election though!


----------



## Nemesis (May 1, 2014)

Or it could have also been to do with the ousting of Yanu and putting in a government no one elected and likely doesn't have support of 50% of the populace.  Yet their first act was to basically put Ukrainian as the only language with the sole intention of pissing of anyone who was Russian speaking or had any pro Russian sympathies.

Or even more likely a mix of both.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 1, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> Should be noted that back in November before all this began, only of  of Crimeans wanted to be part of Russia. The number was actually falling (it was 33% two years earlier), not increasing, which may explain why Russia wanted the peninsula so badly right now.
> 
> That sure changed fast once Putin held an election though!





ONE poll. Between the US backed organization and the independent German one, I'd rather believe Germany. They are more honest than America will ever be as they are.


----------



## Megaharrison (May 1, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> ONE poll. Between the US backed organization and the independent German one, I'd rather believe Germany. They are more honest than America will ever be as they are.



The good ol "lalala I can't hear you it's all wrong" argument.

The poll was certainly more accurate then what the Kremlin is saying.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 1, 2014)

Megaharrison said:


> The good ol "lalala I can't hear you it's all wrong" argument.
> 
> The poll was certainly more accurate then what the Kremlin is saying.



Yeah but that's not the point! The UNDP made a poll and... Well...



By attempting to make the UNDP sound wrong, you'd be labeling yourself a circus act.


----------



## Undertaker (May 2, 2014)

scaramanga said:


> Battle for Maidan. Pro-ukrainians vs Pro-ukrainians. I have no idea wtf is going on.



They are just having fun. 



Megaharrison said:


> The good ol "lalala I can't hear you it's all wrong" argument.
> 
> The poll was certainly more accurate then what the Kremlin is saying.



You people are so adorable.  Why don`t you admit that you see Russia as an enemy and want it to fail no matter what. That`s what this thread is really about.


----------



## scaramanga (May 2, 2014)

Merciless separatists helping wounded Ukrainian pilot. 
[YOUTUBE]UuA_g-OUzC4[/YOUTUBE]

Ukrainian army lost three helicopters today.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 2, 2014)

You know a mod should be demodded when he starts picking sides...


----------



## scaramanga (May 2, 2014)

Ukrainian soldiers wounded unarmed civilian.
[YOUTUBE]aiXKFumIquQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## scaramanga (May 2, 2014)

Nazis are back.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 2, 2014)

NATO, Japan, South Korea and Europe are the new Axis. Guess it's time for Russia to get back in arms again ☭


----------



## Arishem (May 2, 2014)

scaramanga said:


> Nazis are back.


Kill yourself. The whole event was live streamed. I saw those "activists" shoot people from the rooftops, and the enraged mob set the building on fire in response. Eight of the insurrectionists died by falling and the others died mostly from CO poisoning, not by burning to death. Those scum shouldn't have been shooting and throwing molotovs at civilians if they wanted to live.


----------



## scaramanga (May 2, 2014)

Arishem said:


> Kill yourself. The whole event was live streamed. I saw those "activists" shoot people from the rooftops, and the enraged mob set the building on fire in response. Eight of the insurrectionists died by falling and the others died mostly from CO poisoning, not by burning to death. Those scum shouldn't have been shooting and throwing molotovs at civilians if they wanted to live.


Cool story, bro. It's like saying


----------



## The Pink Ninja (May 2, 2014)

scaramanga said:


> Cool story, bro. It's like saying



Yes, it's not at all like that.

They attacked people, they were attacked back.

Oh, and way to equate this with the Nazis.

Putin took a shit in your brain or something.


----------



## Arishem (May 2, 2014)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Putin took a shit in your brain or something.


He can't forget Putin's lips.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJlsmQPAxNk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 2, 2014)

Just saw Merkel's and Obama's speeches.


...seriously, more severe sanctions? We need actual ACTION to stop this!


----------



## ch1p (May 2, 2014)

Nemesis said:


> Or it could have also been to do with the ousting of Yanu and putting in a government no one elected and likely doesn't have support of 50% of the populace.  Yet their first act was to basically put Ukrainian as the only language with the sole intention of pissing of anyone who was Russian speaking or had any pro Russian sympathies.
> 
> Or even more likely a mix of both.



According to those other two posters, the poll showed something different two years ago and a year ago. This is no excuse. If people are discontent with the governemnt and measures of it, they fight the government, they don't start having fantasies of sectioning and joining another country. Those kinds of thoughts are born from other reasons altogether.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 2, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Just saw Merkel's and Obama's speeches.
> 
> 
> ...seriously, more severe sanctions? We need actual ACTION to stop this!



What will you do? Invade Crimea, push the Russians back and annex Crimea back into Ukraine by force?



ch1p said:


> According to those other two posters, the poll showed something different two years ago and a year ago. This is no excuse. If people are discontent with the governemnt and measures of it, they fight the government, they don't start having fantasies of sectioning and joining another country. Those kinds of thoughts are born from other reasons altogether.



Except that according to the fucking United Nations, the majority of Crimea was already fully intent on returning to Russia.



There are polls ALL THE WAY BACK to 2009 showing that Crimea intended full well to go back to the Federation's arms.


----------



## Kagekatsu (May 2, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> There are polls ALL THE WAY BACK to 2009 showing that Crimea intended full well to go back to the Federation's arms.
> [/COLOR]


So, why did they have to have the Russian Army move in and organize it first instead of holding a referendum like their doing in Scotland?


----------



## Nordstrom (May 2, 2014)

Ukraine wouldn't listen. I myself would've preferred that over Russia taking care of things, but Crimea is barely able to speak for itself. Euromaidan Kiev would've probably invaded themselves had Russia not stepped in.


----------



## Nemesis (May 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> According to those other two posters, the poll showed something different two years ago and a year ago. This is no excuse. If people are discontent with the governemnt and measures of it, they fight the government, they don't start having fantasies of sectioning and joining another country. Those kinds of thoughts are born from other reasons altogether.



Because the government they were content with was overthrown by a noisy minority.  You know the democratic one that had an agreement with the protesters in Kiev 24 hours before they were outsted by people without a democratic mandate.   Who should have had the EU and the US bitch slap them and told them to hold elections within 2 weeks if they wanted to be considered legitimate and if they refused they should put Yanu back in office and go by the old agreement.


----------



## ch1p (May 2, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Except that according to the fucking United Nations, the majority of Crimea was already fully intent on returning to Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> There are polls ALL THE WAY BACK to 2009 showing that Crimea intended full well to go back to the Federation's arms.



You mean one of the many polls that were made and not all agree with each other. Let's look at the UN polls though. The data points at ~65%, not the 99% ridiculous percentage the referendum had. My point stands and whether those two posters were right about the percentage numbers or not is irrelevant. You cannot explain a 34% rise with discontent about the government. You cannot explain that 99% at all. It just doesn't happen. This is why I didn't even bother checking if those posters were correct.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> The data points at ~65%, not the 99% ridiculous percentage the referendum had. My point stands and whether those two posters were right about the percentage numbers or not is irrelevant. You cannot explain a 34% rise with discontent about the government. You cannot explain that 99% at all. It just doesn't happen. This is why I didn't even bother checking if those posters were correct.



You do know that part of the voters that could've accounted for that difference didn't vote right?

Even then, the referendum would've come to pass, even if rigged. So that's why I couldn't care less. Crimea joining Russia was set in stone for Crimeans themselves.


----------



## ch1p (May 2, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> You do know that part of the voters that could've accounted for that difference didn't vote right?



That's ridiculous as well. First, because that exact 34% people not going to vote doesn't happen either. Second, because that's not Crimea voting, that's just the desired result voting.



> Even then, the referendum would've come to pass, even if rigged.



You don't know that.



> So that's why I couldn't care less. Crimea joining Russia was set in stone for Crimeans themselves.



You couldn't care less? You cannot explain it, more like. The voting was rigged and you saying it doesn't matter is propaganda. Who knows what else they rigged. That polling cannot be trusted, not after knowing an official referendum was rigged.


----------



## Nordstrom (May 2, 2014)

ch1p said:


> That's ridiculous as well. First, because that exact 34% people not going to vote doesn't happen either. Second, because that's not Crimea voting, that's just the desired result voting.



Actually, what your purport is the turnabout of those who voted. Taking actual amount of registered voters, it's actually 80, which means that the increase is only about 10 percent. Given Crimea's situation was already bad before Yakunovich was ousted, I can see an extra 10 percent increasing after rallying by pro-Russian voters.

Had all voters voted, they would've won by 80+ which is possible given that they had peaked at about 70 percent in the past and there were 10 percent undecided. Ukraine's new government would've only worsened this.



Undecided... an undecided 16 percent that could've been rallied into saying yes by their situation at the time of the referendum.



> You couldn't care less? You cannot explain it, more like. The voting was rigged and you saying it doesn't matter is propaganda. Who knows what else they rigged. That polling cannot be trusted, not after knowing an official referendum was rigged.



You know why I don't believe it was rigged? Russia knew they'd win... Why rig something you know you'll win at? If anything, this'd do them a disservice.


----------



## ch1p (May 2, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> Actually, what your purport is the turnabout of those who voted. Taking actual amount of registered voters, it's actually 80, which means that the increase is only about 10 percent. Given Crimea's situation was already bad before Yakunovich was ousted, I can see an extra 10 percent increasing after rallying by pro-Russian voters.
> 
> Had all voters voted, they would've won by 80+ which is possible given that they had peaked at about 70 percent in the past and there were 10 percent undecided. Ukraine's new government would've only worsened this.
> 
> ...



...

I like how you pay attention to the 2009 year instead of the 2011 year which is much more relevant to 2014. Seriously. 



> You know why I don't believe it was rigged? Russia knew they'd win... Why rig something you know you'll win at? If anything, this'd do them a disservice.



It's impossible either way and you shouldn't defend it as legitimate at all because it wasn't.


----------



## walkerandarazu (May 2, 2014)

Nemesis said:


> Because the government they were content with was overthrown by a noisy minority.  You know the democratic one that had an agreement with the protesters in Kiev 24 hours before they were outsted by people without a democratic mandate.   Who should have had the EU and the US bitch slap them and told them to hold elections within 2 weeks if they wanted to be considered legitimate and if they refused they should put Yanu back in office and go by the old agreement.



When President flees a country on his own accord, he is ousted from his office. Ugandian prez did same. Yanu should just stayed and faced his corruption charges + maybe orders to kill protestors.

I found an interesting stats about referendum in 1991. Back then 90% of Ukrainians voted for independence from Russia.

Good ridence of those guys who came to Odesa thinking they will take over it. Went through the street trashing everything after fight no.1. Then decided to take over prof-union building, Molotov in the air. Ukrainians bring some molotovs back, fire in the hole, Ba-ra-rin and they up in flames.

Snipers worked today as well


----------



## Undertaker (May 3, 2014)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Referendum was rigged, secession is wrong, euromaidan government is legitimate, pro-Russian protesters are terrorists and Russian soldiers... Russian soldiers everywhere.

The irony of the situation is that you have to repeat it like a broken record because USA and EU do nothing significant. Exporting democracy is their thing, isn`t it? They want the best for Ukrainian people, don`t they? What`s happening then?


----------



## Nordstrom (May 3, 2014)

ch1p said:


> ...
> 
> I like how you pay attention to the 2009 year instead of the 2011 year which is much more relevant to 2014. Seriously.



I do because those polls coincide with a rise in pro-Russian sentiment leading to that amount. If the circumstances where even more extreme as they are now, the polls would reflect the highest increase. Mostly because seeing the Ukrainian government as an enemy has always been one of the staples of Crimea.



> It's impossible either way and you shouldn't defend it as legitimate at all because it wasn't.



No.

It is impossible for it to be rigged because it would undermine a sure-shot victory.

It is impossible because rigging to such high numbers would be an obvious red herring.

In short, the only impossible thing would be to ignore all polls and listen only to the poll that says they lost, which for some odd reason goes straight against a UN and German NGO poll and even worse, is backed by the US Government.

Also, the 1991 would make them an independent ASSR, rather than part of Ukraine. It just happened they were transferred back when the USSR collapsed.


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## walkerandarazu (May 3, 2014)

So you guys saying that rigging an election to such level is impossible? What would you say about Boutiflika?


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## Hozukimaru (May 3, 2014)

No but it's a fact that Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine long before the referendum took place. The fact that most Crimean Tatars who were against it didn't take part instead of voting no and the fact that the recent change of power in Kiev displeased many that may have led to undecided voters to side with Russia explains the high percentage of positive votes.


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## olaf (May 3, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> No but it's a fact that Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine long before the referendum took place. The fact that most Crimean Tatars who were against it didn't take part instead of voting no and the fact that recent change of power in Kiev displeased many explains the high percentage of positive votes.


because russian soldiers on the streets would not intimidate anyone 

EDIT: I think that if Russia didn't invade Crimea and there was a vote there (acompanying elections or even in a simple polling) if they still want to be part of Ukraine, most Crimeans would probably vote no.

But with all that happened there I can't prented that their referendum was even close to being legitimate.

Just like I can't pretend that those 'separatists' that have anit aircraft guns aren't russian soldiers.


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## Hozukimaru (May 3, 2014)

A voter's choices are anonymous as far as I know. 
Military/militia force, when used, is usually used to keep people away from the voting centers ala Iraq.


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## olaf (May 3, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> A voter's choices are anonymous as far as I know.
> Military/militia force, when used, is usually used to keep people away from the voting centers ala Iraq.


because when the vote is set by pro-russian officials, (who have russian soldiers on the street and violently opose pro-ukrainian movements) you can be sure that the votes will be anonymous


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## Undertaker (May 3, 2014)

olaf said:


> because russian soldiers on the streets would not intimidate anyone



In your opinion Crimeans are pussies? They saw Russian soldiers, crapped themselves and forgot their antirussian opinions?
If Russian soldiers are so powerful how come they didn`t make Tatars vote for Russia too?




olaf said:


> EDIT: I think that if Russia didn't invade Crimea and there was a vote there (acompanying elections or even in a simple polling) if they still want to be part of Ukraine, most Crimeans would probably vote no.



If Russia didn`t make a move then Kiev would. USA and EU would support those favorable antirussian rigged results. Hurrah for democracy!

By the way why do you think most Crimeans would vote against Russia? What so good about Ukraine and so bad about Russia?


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## Garcher (May 3, 2014)

Why does the fact that there were russian soldiers bother you so much? Sure, that's not very democratic. But when the the Ukraine parliament voted to form a new governemt, there were armed men too, and they still didn't get the needed 75%. However, the EU and USA were perfectly fine with this and treated the putschists like a legitimized governemt.

Damn both sides or no one, or be a hypocritic


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## walkerandarazu (May 3, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Why does the fact that there were russian soldiers bother you so much? Sure, that's not very democratic. But when the the Ukraine parliament voted to form a new governemt, there were armed men too, and they still didn't get the needed 75%. However, the EU and USA were perfectly fine with this and treated the putschists like a legitimized governemt.
> 
> Damn both sides or no one, or be a hypocritic



But the current Government in Ukraine is completely the same as it was in Yanukovich era, nothings changed. The Parliament had a vote on 'should parliament disintegrate', majority voted 'no'. So no-one really formed a new government. Still same guys sitting in there.


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## olaf (May 3, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> In your opinion Crimeans are pussies? They saw Russian soldiers, crapped themselves and forgot their antirussian opinions?


pussies? what are you twelve or retarded?

if you're denying that russian soldiers on street of crimea didn't intimidate some voters (plus those anti-russian protests there were attacked) then you're delusional


Undertaker said:


> If Russia didn`t make a move then Kiev would. USA and EU would support those favorable antirussian rigged results. Hurrah for democracy!
> 
> By the way why do you think most Crimeans would vote against Russia? What so good about Ukraine and so bad about Russia?


First. I'd hope that maidan government wouldn't rigg the elections, but I can't say that this wouldn't certainly happen. If those separatist actions started happening after those so called rigged elections, then the situation would be completely diferent (it doesn't matter if they were rigged, Ukraine would get less support than it has now). But that it would mean that Putin has to wait for the election to happen first, and that would mean more time for new government to getting their country together. And as we see Putin cares more about fucking shit than "protecting ethnic russians" (BTW couldn't he phrase differently? this does sound very Hitler-like)

Second. Where did I write that Crimeans would definitely vote against Russia if there was referendum alongside presidential election? They would most likely vote pro russia (since many of them were always more or less pro russian) and they didn't trust the new government.

But since the vote would take in may the new government would have time to try and convince crimeans that they are better in Ukraine (which had a slim chance to work imo) and Putin didn't want to take that chance. 


Aikuro said:


> Why does the fact that there were russian soldiers bother you so much? Sure, that's not very democratic. But when the the Ukraine parliament voted to form a new governemt, there were armed men too, and they still didn't get the needed 75%. However, the EU and USA were perfectly fine with this and treated the putschists like a legitimized governemt.
> 
> Damn both sides or no one, or be a hypocritic


you make it sound like both sides did equaly undemogratic things. which is ridiculous

second, russian soldiers in crimea doesn't simply mean it's undemocratic. It's invasion of teritorry of another country and an act of war. So don't tell me about democratic actions when there is really Russian-Ukrainina war going on.

Yes. undemocratic things happened in ukraine (which probably started with actions of Yanukovitch) but that internal ukrainian thing. And then russian started invadin ukraine, first crimea now other regions, so don't tell me it's the same as legitimization of maidan government by EU and USA.


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## ch1p (May 3, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
> *Referendum was rigged, secession is wrong*, euromaidan government is legitimate, pro-Russian protesters are terrorists and Russian soldiers... Russian soldiers everywhere.



This is the only thing I've said. I have not commented on anything else.



> The irony of the situation is that you have to repeat it like a broken record because USA and EU do nothing significant. Exporting democracy is their thing, isn`t it? They want the best for Ukrainian people, don`t they? What`s happening then?



I understand I'm unknown on this section, so let me fill you in on my position.

I've been mocking that the EU and the US would do fuck all since the very beginning. People told me to wait and see, that they'd do something, because Putin was stretching it. I said they wouldn't do anything and I was right. 



Sleipnyr said:


> I do because those polls coincide with a rise in pro-Russian sentiment leading to that amount. If the circumstances where even more extreme as they are now, the polls would reflect the highest increase. Mostly because seeing the Ukrainian government as an enemy has always been one of the staples of Crimea.
> 
> No.
> 
> ...



It's simply not possible, no matter how much you write and I don't give a rat's ass of who rigged that referendum, because that's not the point. Nobody should have accepted the results of this referendum, because it's clearly rigged and not reflective of the population's choice. There's no way that 99% of people wanted to be part of another, Tatars included or not. There's just no way.

Russia isn't the only one wrong on this whole conflict, but they are the ones that profited from this (come on now, _sanctions_ ) and what they did was snatch land from another country. If at least Crimea had stood independent, but join another country? WTF was that. Especially with Russia's past. The referendum also had only two, very favorable choices for Russia.

This is one of the reasons why Russia is wrong in this whole conflict, even more so because there are human lives at stake, this isn't a game. Russia shouldn't have accepted the referendum result when it looked like that.


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## Hozukimaru (May 3, 2014)

It was ~97% actually iirc.


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## Nordstrom (May 3, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> So you guys saying that rigging an election to such level is impossible? What would you say about Boutiflika?



We're not saying it's impossible, but it's illogical. Such high numbers are more likely to undermine you than support you.



Hozukimaru said:


> No but it's a fact that Crimeans wanted to leave Ukraine long before the referendum took place. The fact that most Crimean Tatars who were against it didn't take part instead of voting no and the fact that the recent change of power in Kiev displeased many that may have led to undecided voters to side with Russia explains the high percentage of positive votes.



When their relationship was fairly tame, there were a 70+ of support for Russian ascension. 16 were undecided. Don't you think that in the wake of a government they all despise more than anything that the undecided 16 would join the bandwagon and become 86+ of the vote?



olaf said:


> EDIT: I think that if Russia didn't invade Crimea and there was a vote there (acompanying elections or even in a simple polling) if they still want to be part of Ukraine, most Crimeans would probably vote no.
> 
> *But with all that happened there I can't prented that their referendum was even close to being legitimate.*
> 
> Just like I can't pretend that those 'separatists' that have anit aircraft guns aren't russian soldiers.



I can't feign it was made in favorable conditions and know it was voted under duress, but since the people would've still gotten lost from Ukraine, I don't see much of a problem. Most were with Russia before, so nothing would've changed.



olaf said:


> because when the vote is set by pro-russian officials, (who have russian soldiers on the street and violently opose pro-ukrainian movements) you can be sure that the votes will be anonymous



Dude, even some Ukrainians wanted to go back to Russia. They're 60 of the population, yet the polls have gone all the way to 70.



olaf said:


> pussies? what are you twelve or retarded?
> 
> if you're denying that russian soldiers on street of crimea didn't intimidate some voters (plus those anti-russian protests there were attacked) then you're delusional
> 
> ...



Whilst I disagree with you giving Euromaidan more support, as I think they're worse than Russia, I see that your complaint is the same as I have.

Russia couldn't wait until they made the choice to invade. It's one of the things that I rejected. However, since I knew this would wind up being the same way with or without them, I don't give much of a shit about it, other than Putin playing chess against himself and losing.



ch1p said:


> It's simply not possible, no matter how much you write and I don't give a rat's ass of who rigged that referendum, because that's not the point. Nobody should have accepted the results of this referendum, because it's clearly rigged and not reflective of the population's choice. There's no way that 99% of people wanted to be part of another, Tatars included or not. There's just no way.



Your turnabout of all voters was 80 percent. Not 97. That's for all those who voted.



Ironically, if you take 2009's polls and then add the undecided 16 it turns out like it did here.

That's how it would've turned out if there had been no boycott.



> Russia isn't the only one wrong on this whole conflict, but they are the ones that profited from this (come on now, _sanctions_ ) and what they did was snatch land from another country. If at least Crimea had stood independent, but join another country? WTF was that. Especially with Russia's past. The referendum also had only two, very favorable choices for Russia.
> 
> This is one of the reasons why Russia is wrong in this whole conflict, even more so because there are human lives at stake, this isn't a game. Russia shouldn't have accepted the referendum result when it looked like that.



I agree with you on this though. I myself would've preferred an independent Crimea. However, with how things are looking for Donetsk, I'm pretty sure restoring the 1992 constitution would been suicidal for them.

Also, you're talking as if having an overwhelming majority would be a problem EVEN IF there were no green men over there.



Hozukimaru said:


> It was ~97% actually iirc.



97 of VALID VOTES!


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## Hozukimaru (May 3, 2014)

Sleipnyr said:


> When their relationship was fairly tame, there were a 70+ of support for Russian ascension. 16 were undecided. Don't you think that in the wake of a government they all despise more than anything that the undecided 16 would join the bandwagon and become 86+ of the vote?
> 
> 97 of VALID VOTES!



Yes. And alright, of the valid votes.


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## Frostman (May 3, 2014)

Hozukimaru said:


> It was ~97% actually iirc.



~97% of the people that voted to be more precise.

Everyone that wanted to be part of Russia made an effort to get up and vote. Those that didn't want to be Russia boycotted it.


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## makeoutparadise (May 3, 2014)

LOL at pro-russians angry at the fire in Odessa

"I Don't understand all we did was take over and trash a government building, kidnapped  some reporters and observers. Beat up political opponents with Iorn bars, and Committing treason and Sedition. We didn't expect people to get killed."


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## scaramanga (May 3, 2014)

Looks like citizens of Kramatorsk are _not _happy to see soldiers "protecting" them.
[YOUTUBE]aYLyJrOhpVQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Undertaker (May 3, 2014)

olaf said:


> pussies? what are you twelve or retarded?
> 
> if you're denying that russian soldiers on street of crimea didn't intimidate some voters (plus those anti-russian protests there were attacked) then you're delusional



You seem like a reasonable person. Why do you even use "intimidation" argument in this issue? If someone wants to rig votes the easiest way is to fake votes. No need for the silly intimidation games. Especially when you have full control of the region.
I don`t even want to argue here. I`m just checking how much you believe in this "intimidation" argument because I`m surprised.



olaf said:


> If those separatist actions started happening after those so called rigged elections, then the situation would be completely diferent (it doesn't matter if they were rigged, Ukraine would get less support than it has now).



That`s why I have mixed feelings about the annexation. I think it should have been done during or after the presidential elections. But still Ukraine would get same support from USA and EU against Russia. No matter what.



olaf said:


> Second. Where did I write that Crimeans would definitely vote against Russia if there was referendum alongside presidential election? They would most likely vote pro russia (since many of them were always more or less pro russian) and they didn't trust the new government.


My bad. I got too emotional and saw things. 



ch1p said:


> I've been mocking that the EU and the US would do fuck all since the very beginning. People told me to wait and see, that they'd do something, because Putin was stretching it. I said they wouldn't do anything and I was right.


I hear you.



ch1p said:


> Russia isn't the only one wrong on this whole conflict, but they are the ones that profited from this (come on now, _sanctions_ ) and what they did was snatch land from another country.


I think that`s what pisses off USA and EU the most. Russia getting profit is their bad dream.


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## Kagekatsu (May 3, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> I think that`s what pisses off USA and EU the most. Russia getting profit is their bad dream.


Political profit at the least. Putin certainly is going to milk the "Motherland's heroic defiance of American-Western imperialism" narrative for all its worth.

Economic wise though, isn't the annexation actually proving to be a drain on Russia's resources?


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## Nordstrom (May 3, 2014)

Frostman said:


> ~97% of the people that voted to be more precise.
> 
> Everyone that wanted to be part of Russia made an effort to get up and vote. Those that didn't want to be Russia boycotted it.



Thank you for remind everyone that the actual turnout was around 85 percent, which is more than possible, given the polls and being between a rock (Russia) and a hard place (Ukraine).



makeoutparadise said:


> LOL at pro-russians angry at the fire in Odessa
> 
> "I Don't understand all we did was take over and trash a government building, kidnapped  some reporters and observers. Beat up political opponents with Iorn bars, and Committing treason and Sedition. We didn't expect people to get killed."



They can be angry, but not surprised. They declared all out war. Casualties should be expected.



Kagekatsu said:


> Political profit at the least. Putin certainly is going to milk the "Motherland's heroic defiance of American-Western imperialism" narrative for all its worth.
> 
> Economic wise though, isn't the annexation actually proving to be a drain on Russia's resources?



Which is why I doubt they did it out of "former glory" and all that jazz...



> That`s why I have mixed feelings about the annexation. I think it should have been done during or after the presidential elections. But still Ukraine would get same support from USA and EU against Russia. No matter what.



Trust me buddy, you ain't alone there. I have my doubts too, but they're better off now than otherwise.


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## olaf (May 4, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> You seem like a reasonable person. Why do you even use "intimidation" argument in this issue? If someone wants to rig votes the easiest way is to fake votes. No need for the silly intimidation games. Especially when you have full control of the region.
> I don`t even want to argue here. I`m just checking how much you believe in this "intimidation" argument because I`m surprised.


I'm not sure what you exactly understand when you speak of "intimidation argument"

for me it's simple, some people were surely intmidated by army on the streets. It had impact on political situation in Crimea. I don't know how much impact it had, but I know that it had.

It's not that intimidation of some crimean citizens was the intended goal (which was showing new ukrainina government that they can't do shit), it was happy byproduct of their actions. Russia chose to act like a fucking hammer (because why would they try something subtle but less sure) inserting army into Crimea, so I find it ridiculous that people are using "it's not reasonable from political point of view, subtle politics doesn't work that way" arguments.


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## Undertaker (May 4, 2014)

olaf said:


> It's not that intimidation of some crimean citizens was the intended goal (which was showing new ukrainina government that they can't do shit), it was happy byproduct of their actions.



I agree on that. The main goal was to show that present-day Russia is strong and Ukraine is unstable and weak.

I still think that brining soldiers is too risky to rig votes. You radicalize opinions, pro- and anti- gets stronger. All comes down to the risky battle for indecisive majority. It`s hard to say if intimidation of Russian soldiers had more pro-russian or anti-russian influence. That`s why I consider it as a weak argument.
That`s why if you have administrative and military control over the region then you simply fake votes. The strong argument for Crimean referendum being rigged would be facts of faking votes.



Kagekatsu said:


> Economic wise though, isn't the annexation actually proving to be a drain on Russia's resources?



Yes in the short-run. But Crimea is a warm seacoast. You have agriculture, tourism, trade. Bring stability and it will prosper.

Geopolitical profit is the most important. It was like this for years: Gas - Crimean military base - NATO influence. Russia has broken this triangle. Ukraine has no Crimean base as a political leverage now.


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## olaf (May 4, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> I still think that brining soldiers is too risky to rig votes. You radicalize opinions, pro- and anti- gets stronger. All comes down to the risky battle for indecisive majority. It`s hard to say if intimidation of Russian soldiers had more pro-russian or anti-russian influence. That`s why I consider it as a weak argument.
> That`s why if you have administrative and military control over the region then you simply fake votes. The strong argument for Crimean referendum being rigged would be facts of faking votes.


you make it sound like Russian actions were well thought and reasonable. while they might be well planned I think they're very far from being reasonable.

ANd indecisive majority was only when Crimea was in Ukraine. I bet it would only take controling authorities and promise of money to make majority vote pro russian. But since they also have soldiers on the streets they as well can intimidate this small group of people that wouldn't be pro-russian anyway. And making them too scred too protest is nice bonus.

People there aren't indifferent to politics in the same way that people might be indifferent to politics in EU or USA. They are not only of russian heritage but also of russian mentality, which means that even though they might speak of democracy they really want a strong tyrant that will make them feel strong and safe (and if some minortiy gets opressed, or deported, they won't care that much since "what can you do, it's kind of tradition" and "they probably deserved it, they could've been quiet instead of prostesting")


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## Undertaker (May 4, 2014)

olaf said:


> They are not only of russian heritage but also of russian mentality, which means that even though they might speak of democracy they really want a strong tyrant that will make them feel strong and safe (and if some minortiy gets opressed, or deported, they won't care that much since "what can you do, it's kind of tradition" and "they probably deserved it, they could've been quiet instead of prostesting")



The term "mentality" is too vague and easily turns into bunch of stereotypes. Connecting mentality and form of government gives easy ad hoc explanations but doesn`t explain anything in the end. So I would refrain from such arguments.


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## olaf (May 4, 2014)

Undertaker said:


> The term "mentality" is too vague and easily turns into bunch of stereotypes. Connecting mentality and form of government gives easy ad hoc explanations but doesn`t explain anything in the end. So I would refrain from such arguments.


you are right. I forgot that not everyone leaves in central europe and I might have different view on russia (definitely more informed, but probably biased in one way or another)

I can't expect you to believe in my vague words, and I'm too lazy too look for more detailed works about this subject.

I'd like you just to think about how many asian nations are focused on honor and duty in such aprticular way that you could call it part of their mentality, and how it influences their history and governments. I know that it's still pretty vague but you can't deny that there is something there (plus most people forget that russians aren't really europeans when it comes to culture)


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## Undertaker (May 5, 2014)

olaf said:


> I know that it's still pretty vague but you can't deny that there is something there (plus most people forget that russians aren't really europeans when it comes to culture)



Yes. There is something but we are not sure how it works yet.

There is a debate lasting since I don`t know when, since Peter the Great mostly. What path should Russia take? Asian, European or its own special path? Whatever these paths mean. People are still debating it in Russia and something tells me they will be doing it for a long, long time.

We kinda got offtopic. So we should move it somewhere or stop for a while.


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## Zaru (May 6, 2014)

As usual take it with a grain of salt but it wouldn't surprise me.


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## Mael (May 6, 2014)

Zaru said:


> As usual take it with a grain of salt but it wouldn't surprise me.



Putin has a human rights council?


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## Zaru (May 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Putin has a human rights council?





Apparently so.


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## Utopia Realm (May 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Putin has a human rights council?



Well, its a possibility, albeit a strange one. Results wouldnt surprise me either.


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## Mael (May 6, 2014)

Utopia Realm said:


> Well, its a possibility, albeit a strange one. Results wouldnt surprise me either.



True...I mean look at the members of the UN Human Rights Council.


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## Nordstrom (May 6, 2014)

Mael said:


> Putin has a human rights council?



This was far more shocking than the whole thing was.


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## Amanda (May 6, 2014)

Half of the given votes sounds more realistic than almost hundred percent support. Still I'll take it with the suggested grain of salt: accidents this convenient for someone are always a bit suspicious.


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## Undertaker (May 6, 2014)

Zaru said:


> As usual take it with a grain of salt but it wouldn't surprise me.



google cash for the rescue? I couldn`t fint it.


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## ExoSkel (May 29, 2014)

Chechen islamic fighters have joined the separatists in Donetsk.


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## walkerandarazu (May 29, 2014)

Where did Chechen guys came from?...

Btw there were presidential elections in Ukraine. Parashenko won with 60% or smt, while Timoshenko only managed 11% or 12%.


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## Overwatch (May 29, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Where did Chechen guys came from?...
> 
> Btw there were presidential elections in Ukraine. Parashenko won with 60% or smt, while Timoshenko only managed 11% or 12%.



Bye, Yulichka!


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## Undertaker (May 29, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Where did Chechen guys came from?...



from Chechnya, you silly.


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## ExoSkel (May 30, 2014)

walkerandarazu said:


> Where did Chechen guys came from?...


From the magical island of Tahiti


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## Undertaker (May 31, 2014)

ExoSkel said:


> From the magical island of Tahiti



Should we annex it too?


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## Nordstrom (May 31, 2014)

If they say yes, well yes obviously!


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## Nemesis (May 31, 2014)

ExoSkel said:


> Chechen islamic fighters have joined the separatists in Donetsk.



Interesting.  

Islamic fighters joining pro Russian groups even though they would kill any Russian they would come across inside Russia.


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## Hozukimaru (May 31, 2014)

Mercenaries?


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## scaramanga (Jun 2, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiJkCZrjlWI#t=89[/YOUTUBE]
Ukrainian aviatiion attacked Lugansk. Civilians? Fuck you, civilians.


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