# Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Part 4



## Reznor (Jan 3, 2016)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*


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## Reznor (Jan 3, 2016)

*Star Wars: The Force Awakens*

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Stunna said:


> you can't bring back a double-edged lightsaber without bringing back the prequel choreography too, guys
> 
> gotta choose





Meh- maybe you can..


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

fuckin thread ends

anyone who says they liked the prequels choreography needs to go watch obi wan and anakin vs dooku again

and

[YOUTUBE]J0mUVY9fLlw[/YOUTUBE]


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2016)

I liked the OT fights

and the PT fights

and TFA fights





so good to be basic


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

not gonna lie, I still like that fight in spite of valid criticisms

still, we should never go back to it

no double-edged lightsabers


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## sworder (Jan 3, 2016)

tbf no one ever aims to hit while fighting in films unless you're watching Jet Li

kicks almost always miss even if the opponent doesn't move, makes sense it's the same for sword attacks too. they're amateurs and may have to redo the same scene dozens of times


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 3, 2016)

dude no seriously 

theres not a single fight in the prequels where i was like

"wow that was well choreographed"


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## sworder (Jan 3, 2016)

Stunna said:


> not gonna lie, I still like that fight in spite of valid criticisms
> 
> still, we should never go back to it
> 
> no double-edged lightsabers



it's not like TFA is any better 

Kylo looked like he was swinging a bat with one hand, that's even worse


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2016)

WAD said:


> dude no seriously
> 
> theres not a single fight in the prequels where i was like
> 
> "wow that was well choreographed"


Yoda vs Sidious ?


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

sworder said:


> tbf no one ever aims to hit while fighting in films unless you're watching Jet Li
> 
> kicks almost always miss even if the opponent doesn't move, makes sense it's the same for sword attacks too. they're amateurs and may have to redo the same scene dozens of times





sworder said:


> it's not like TFA is any better
> 
> Kylo looked like he was swinging a bat with one hand, that's even worse


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

sworder said:


> it's not like TFA is any better
> 
> Kylo looked like he was swinging a bat with one hand, that's even worse



or worse..you can't fully make out whats going on cause of dim lighting and shaky cam.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Weiss said:


> Yoda vs Sidious ?



lmao, you dun goofed .


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 3, 2016)

Weiss said:


> Yoda vs Sidious ?



dude

stop being basic


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## Pocalypse (Jan 3, 2016)




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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2016)

one does not just stop being what he is


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

The best fights in PT involved Dooku.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Pocalypse said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Doesn't this prove it wasn't dual lightsabers that was the problem?


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

Just because the double-edged lightsaber is asked for does not mean the lightsaber fights of the prequel are looked at favorably. It's just the lightsaber fights.


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## Pocalypse (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> Doesn't this prove it wasn't dual lightsabers that was the problem?



We were talkin' about choreography from the prequels in general also, no? 

Still that part was random as fuck


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

The choreography of the prequels is not the problem. It's *DIALOGUE*


DIALOGUE.

DIALOGUE

DIALOGUE

[YOUTUBE]buyflmtHcHc[/YOUTUBE]

Seriously the worst fucking romantic drivel I've ever been exposed to.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Bender said:


> The choreography of the prequels is not the problem.



You're not helping the cause, Bender.


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> You're not helping the cause, Bender.



Simply because I'm overlooking the choreography does not mean I'm giving the prequels a plus. Lucas did not know how to end a fight to save his life.

Nearly everything in the prequels was done half-assed.

Also for anyone who doesn't notice this but Star Wars TPM and Star Wars Revenge of the Sith fight had similar conclusions. Obi-Wan won because he had the high ground.


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

sworder said:


> it's not like TFA is any better
> 
> Kylo looked like he was swinging a bat with one hand, that's even worse



TFA fights weren't done with overly flashy moves.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 3, 2016)

Bender said:


> The choreography of the prequels is not the problem. It's *DIALOGUE*
> 
> 
> DIALOGUE.
> ...



m8 almost everything about the prequels is the problem


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

WAD said:


> m8 almost everything about the prequels is the problem



Yeah, I know. What I meant to say is the dialogue is perhaps the most glaring bit about the prequels. I cringe each time Anakin and Padme are on screen.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> The best fights in PT involved Dooku.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]BvnwLLXHabg[/YOUTUBE]

check out this hot garbage where a 150 year old christopher lee needs both christensen and mcgregor to leave him blatant and obvious openings in order to win because otherwise it's just absurd

and then you have the 10-15 second sequence at around 1:55 where you don't even see them fight, you just see beams of light moving around like they're at a damn rave


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2016)

I just look at the pretty lightsabers


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## Mikaveli (Jan 3, 2016)




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## Butcher (Jan 3, 2016)

Going to see this Tuesday with my brother and some friends. 

I'm going in with very low expectations, and I won't be too upset if it turns out bad since I'm not going to be paying any money to see it.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Not saying they were up to par, but they were atleast the best of the lot.


I'm a glass half full kind of guy.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> Not saying they were up to par, but they were atleast the best of the lot.
> 
> 
> I'm a glass half full kind of guy.



the best of the lot was the tpm duel

and i didn't even like it

but at least none of the people involved were a century old and able to actually move fast so it wasn't a fucking joke to watch


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

tfw Anakin extended his arm on purpose so the old man could lob it off

tfw when Yoda is jumping around like a hyped up squirrel, but Dooku's reaction shots are so disproportionately slow


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 3, 2016)

Bender said:


> The choreography of the prequels is not the problem. It's *DIALOGUE*
> 
> 
> DIALOGUE.
> ...



I'd take that over Twilight, because that series re-wrote the book on "bad romance", and had hellspawn in the form of "Fifty Shades of Grey".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

To change the subject, I found this rather enlightening essay a few days back:



According to the essay, the two trilogies are meant to be taken as a whole in the style of "ring composition", not as stand-alone movies.

For example, "Attack of the Clones" was meant to be tied to "Empire Strikes Back", sharing many key story elements, with the elements being employed in reverse order as part of the ring composition (pardon the image size):


*Spoiler*: __ 








It does make me wonder if the same can be said for "The Force Awaken", making a three-part "ring composition" (although they normally comprise two parts that meet in the middle of the story).

After all, it does draw on many aspects from "A New Hope", but also from "Return of the Jedi", the latter of which "The Force Awakens" would link to in the "ring composition".


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> but at least none of the people involved were a century old and able to actually move fast so it wasn't a fucking joke to watch



I find your lack of faith disturbing..

With that logic, Luke shouldn't be able to do much this trilogy.


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

c'mon now, Gesy

unlike in the prequels, Luke isn't going to be expected to flip around the room like a gymnast or fight 3 ft tall dwarfs with super speed


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I find your lack of faith disturbing..
> 
> With that logic, Luke shouldn't be able to do much this trilogy.



mark hamill is 64

christopher lee was 80 in attack of the clones

and luke should take the yoda role and then sit back, not be an active force - it's time to hand over the reins to the new generation


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## Gunners (Jan 3, 2016)

I think the issue with Anakin and Padme's romance is the failure to provide a point of reference for what a normal relationship is. Their relationship existing inside of a bubble, where no else knew, didn't help matters. 

The dialogue was crap but if you had normal relationships to look at and supporting characters pointing out their immaturity, it would push me towards viewing it as an aspect of their character as opposed to shoddy writing.

That being said... sand.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

@Stunna

....the force made him do it!




Lucaniel said:


> mark hamill is 64
> 
> christopher lee was 80 in attack of the clones
> 
> and luke should take the yoda role and then sit back, not be an active force - it's time to hand over the reins to the new generation



We'll see

I wouldn't count on it


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

Luke is gonna fight someone

that's not even a question


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Since this whole movie was about keeping him out of the conflict

It'll be funny if all that effort was for nothing cause he was just going to stay out anyway


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Gunners said:


> I think the issue with Anakin and Padme's romance is the failure to provide a point of reference for what a normal relationship is. Their relationship existing inside of a bubble, where no else knew, didn't help matters.
> 
> The dialogue was crap but if you had normal relationships to look at and supporting characters pointing out their immaturity, it would push me towards viewing it as an aspect of their character as opposed to shoddy writing.
> 
> That being said... sand.



The bubble was needed for the eventual conclusion though.


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## A. Waltz (Jan 3, 2016)

i always thought it was odd how old obi wan never truly fought (him vs vader was hella weak) and was 'too old'
just cuz we're so used to seeing old badasses in movies and shit. 

i really want to see luke fight and be a badass

but since they're OTfags, they'll probably go with "he's old" and have him die against a baddie for the sake of OTfagness


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2016)

loving the TR-8R memes


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)




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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

already made 144 tweets


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> The bubble was needed for the eventual conclusion though.



gesy rate each of the prequels out of 10


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## Banhammer (Jan 3, 2016)

God tier

>Han Solo
>Tr-8R
>Chewie

Bro Tier

>Leia
>Ricardo El Guapo
>BB-8
> Shut up Kylo

Ok tier

>Fin
>C-3po
>Yellow furry midget

Try harder tier

>Captain Phasma
>Nazi General
>Snoake

EGH tier

>Rey
>Sand




Kylo ranks so high mostly because of nepotism.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> gesy rate each of the prequels out of 10


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

If 5= average

I'd rate each below 5; where the numbers go will prolly start a debate I'd rather not get into.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

how is that a trap rofl


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> If 5= average
> 
> I'd rate each below 5, where the numbers go will prolly start a debate I rather not get into.



well at least you know they're all below average


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2016)

> Polygon further reveals the background story for Finn, published in a novel one day ahead of the Force Awakens’ premiere. Called Before the Awakening, the novel has three long stories and one is devoted to Finn.
> 
> 
> Finn, or FN-2187, was part of a four-man fire team that included three others: FN-2199, FN-2000 and FN-2003 known as Nines, Zero and Slip. Finn doesn’t have a nickname and he appears to be the leader. A seasoned stormtrooper figures him out in the book: “An outsider. You’re on the outside, and you’ll always be looking in and wondering why you don’t belong.”
> ...


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## Lucaniel (Jan 3, 2016)

gotta say

fuck all these tie-in novels and their attempts to deliver backstory that the screenplay was too lazy to put in

a lot of this shoulda been in the movie in order to flesh out finn's characterisation


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

yeah, idgaf about any details that are only delivered in the novelizations


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 3, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Luke is gonna fight someone
> 
> that's not even a question



I bet Luke will lose to Snoke then Rey will jump in and kick Snoke's ass to save him.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> I bet Luke will lose to Snoke then Rey will jump in and kick Snoke's ass to save him.



I don't see Luke beating the main villain since this is no longer his show. So yeah, Luke vs Snoke would end in a lost or stalemate. If Luke _does_ lose, it'll be for the development of Rey.


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

Looking at film for the third time in theaters.


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't see Luke beating the main villain since this is no longer his show. So yeah, Luke vs Snoke would end in a lost or stalemate. If Luke _does_ lose, it'll be for the development of Rey.



Rey will beat both Kylo and Snoke, maybe even at the same time thereby surpassing Luke as the strongest force user ever.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 3, 2016)

>Luke
>strongest ever

how can you be this much of a dumb, buttmad, star wars fan but also simultaneously know absolutely nothing about star wars? 

Anakin was the strongest


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 3, 2016)

Anakin would have been if not for Mustafar

Luke is what Anakin would have been, Lucas said it himself.

Now kindly go fuck yourself with a rusty pole


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 3, 2016)

>lucas
>canon


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## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 3, 2016)

this is probably my favorite


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## Mikaveli (Jan 3, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> gotta say
> 
> fuck all these tie-in novels and their attempts to deliver backstory that the screenplay was too lazy to put in
> 
> a lot of this shoulda been in the movie in order to flesh out finn's characterisation



agreed. just put it in the movie


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 3, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> If 5= average
> 
> I'd rate each below 5; where the numbers go will prolly start a debate I'd rather not get into.



5 is below average to me 

I wouldn't rate any of them higher than a 6, personally


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

how is 5 below average


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 3, 2016)

because I said so


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

if only I'd known math could be so easy


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Stunna said:


> how is 5 below average



That's why I emphasized where the midway point was at.


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 3, 2016)

well, 5 CAN be below average if you use a 1-10 scale


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 3, 2016)




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## Parallax (Jan 3, 2016)

WAD said:


> well, 5 CAN be below average if you use a 1-10 scale



American grading scale has us fucked up since by any other metric or account the middle is five and ergo would be the average


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## Rukia (Jan 3, 2016)

What happened to the "you have that power too" speech?


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## Stunna (Jan 3, 2016)

you do know that quote was from RotJ, right


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## Mikaveli (Jan 3, 2016)

When I use 1-10, 5 is average

that's math 

when 6 is an average you almost never use the lower numbers

your scales are mediocre and broken Stunna. I rate your scale 4/10


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 3, 2016)

Parallax said:


> American grading scale has us fucked up since by any other metric or account the middle is five and ergo would be the average



well if you scale from 0-10 then 5 is the average


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## Rukia (Jan 3, 2016)

Stunna said:


> you do know that quote was from RotJ, right


No, news to me.  Creative trailer editing if you are right.

I try not to revisit Return of the Jedi since Star Wars went to shit after the Empire Strikes Back.


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

@ last page on ratings

Being rated 5 according to game informer is pretty akin to being barely decent.


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

Bet rating for TFA gonna go up on rotten tomatoes


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## Lance (Jan 3, 2016)

Nighty said:


> >Luke
> >strongest ever
> 
> how can you be this much of a dumb, buttmad, star wars fan but also simultaneously know absolutely nothing about star wars?
> ...





Gilgamesh said:


> Anakin would have been if not for Mustafar
> 
> Luke is what Anakin would have been, Lucas said it himself.
> 
> Now kindly go fuck yourself with a rusty pole



Luke is NOT what Anakin would have been.
And also, Luke is not the strongest Jedi. In the expanded universe which is now non-canon, Luke is probably not even one of the elite force users.
Luke was naturally born, with a father and mother.
Anakin was not natural born. He was born by the "will" of the Force.
Rightly, Anakin would have been the strongest Jedi and Force User had he not gone to the dark side.

And Never quote Lucas on what he says. Cause next time you ask him the same question, dude will give you a different answer.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 3, 2016)

the thing with rating scales is that I almost never have to use the bottom half because most films that I bother to actually watch are at least better than average

so my average becomes better than better than average

and the cycle continues 

a true scale with 5 in the middle as average can only be achieved by a person that consumes literally all media that comes their way

like kira could do one for anime

except nobody would trust it


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## Mider T (Jan 3, 2016)

Rukia said:


> What happened to the "you have that power too" speech?





Stunna said:


> you do know that quote was from RotJ, right



 Classic Rukia


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## Pilaf (Jan 3, 2016)

Lance said:


> Luke is NOT what Anakin would have been.
> And also, Luke is not the strongest Jedi. In the expanded universe *which is now non-canon*



Yeah see, that's why you can't use it as evidence, because nobody's talking about fan fiction Luke.


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## Bender (Jan 3, 2016)

Lol might as well call that piece of shit EU fanfiction since no longer canon.


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## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5eZp8Ae9c[/YOUTUBE]

those head turns


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## sworder (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5eZp8Ae9c[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> those head turns



oh god

the prequels truly are cancer


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## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@The World

OMFG you made me hate the holy fucking hell out of Lucas.


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## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

I have to tweet that video and ask if people will ever like Lucas ever again.


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## A. Waltz (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l5eZp8Ae9c[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> those head turns



that deleted scene is hilarious i can't stop laughing oh my god


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## Lance (Jan 4, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Yeah see, that's why you can't use it as evidence, because nobody's talking about fan fiction Luke.



Didn't use that particular point as an example.
Just tossed it out there is all.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

there was a Hutt Jedi Knight


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

Wait you needed Honest trailers to realise that 

Some people man


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> the thing with rating scales is that I almost never have to use the bottom half because most films that I bother to actually watch are at least better than average
> 
> so my average becomes better than better than average
> 
> ...


same


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## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

shut the fuck up vaulto


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

No, fuck you Warudo


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

lol tbf tho, the prequels _never_ tried to hide the fact that Palpatine was Sidious from the audience


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

also, the opera scene and the Anakin/Padme window scene were two of the best scenes in the prequels iirc

and that deleted scene was dumb because of the droid talk, but we could have used more moments like that between Anakin and Obi-Wan actually in the movies or something


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> lol tbf tho, the prequels _never_ tried to hide the fact that Palpatine was Sidious from the audience



or from the characters


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## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 4, 2016)

head turn.gif


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> or from the characters


irrelevant to my point, which was that the trailer emphasized the twist as it impacts the audience, not the characters

it wasn't supposed to be a twist to the audience


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> irrelevant to my point, which was that the trailer emphasized the twist as it impacts the audience, not the characters
> 
> it wasn't supposed to be a twist to the audience



i wasn't arguing with you

i was using your post to rip on the prequels


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

does any Jedi except Yoda in that season 6 vision ever see how Sidious looks like in TCW ?


cuz he is quite obviously an old human male in a robe


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> i wasn't arguing with you
> 
> i was using your post to rip on the prequels


okay, mate


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna so used to arguing in this thread that he is attacking anything moving  

This thread is a blight


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

that wasn't supposed to be an attack either


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

anyone: [tries to make a joke]
stunna: that is irrelevant. why are you saying this? learn to debate


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

I'm sorry


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## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

I wasn't arguing with you 

I was using your post to rip on the thread 



Damn what's wrong with you dude, what has this thread done to you


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## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

WAD said:


> head turn.gif



i'm not evil



















at all



bravo jorge


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## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> lol tbf tho, the prequels _never_ tried to hide the fact that Palpatine was Sidious from the audience



I swear to god dude y r u so hell bent on defending the prequels? 

Admit the prequels suck like a regular person and b done with it.


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## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

he's not as flexible as u bender


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

I already have said the prequels suck

dozens of times

but I think it's incredibly stupid to hate something so much that you won't even defend it even when it's valid to do so, or to hate something so much that you'd say something as dumb as "literally everything about it is bad", and actually mean it


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## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

but literally everything about it is bad


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

when people say something like "literally everything about it is bad", chances are they're overlooking a shit ton of stuff that isn't actually bad, it's just in a bad overall production

one example: the music


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

i know what you mean, Luc thought I liked the prequels just because I said Anne/pade's secret relationship was an important storyline.


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

like

do you realize how few movies don't have at least _one_ thing in them that's at least okay?

I understand the use of hyperbole, but let's not act like it's anything more than that.

It's okay to think something bad and still have nice things to say about it. Just like it's okay to think something is bad and still enjoy it.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> i know what you mean, Luc thought I liked the prequels just because I said Anne/pade's relationship secret relationship was important.



wut

i asked you to rate them


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Out of random curiosity?


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> The bubble was needed for the eventual conclusion though.



oh this?

you can have the bubble of no-one knowing about anakin and padme and still have both of them act like normal human beings with a point of reference for a normal relationship in the form of other people in the prequels having one


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## sworder (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Just like it's okay to think something is bad and still enjoy it.



>enjoying the prequels instead of being put to sleep


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## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

I guess that's a reasonable thing for someone to say.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> oh this?
> 
> you can have the bubble of no-one knowing about anakin and padme and still have both of them act like normal human beings with a point of reference for a normal relationship in the form of other people in the prequels having one


My post wouldn't be wrong if I agreed with this 

But I will say they weren't normal-- Anakin wasn't anyway. He was emotionally fragile due to his tragic upbringing and the guilt from being unable to protect his mother.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> My post wouldn't be wrong if I agreed with this
> 
> But I will say they weren't normal-- Anakin wasn't anyway. He was emotionally fragile due to his tragic upbringing and the guilt from being unable to protect his mother.



rofl don't leave that shit in like it made any sense

the only reason anakin had that guilt was because after tpm, apparently him, qui gon, AND padme all forgot that his mom was still a damn slave, and they couldn't shell out a buck or exert some royal/jedi influence to have her freed

which is maybe the dumbest forgotten story thread in the prequels

his upbringing aside from him just forgetting that his mom existed after he fucked off and left her, though, wasn't even tragic. poor, sure, but he didn't seem ill-adjusted on tattooine, and he seemed to have had fun in his time with obi-wan as a padawan


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## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

It would have been cool had George instead of wanting to sell toys to kids actually put some substance in his work and made a creepy serial killer story with Anakin when his unchecked dark side powers were influencing him and mind raping padme into loving him

that would have been interesting


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> rofl don't leave that shit in like it made any sense
> 
> the only reason anakin had that guilt was because after tpm, apparently him, qui gon, AND padme all forgot that his mom was still a damn slave, and they couldn't shell out a buck or exert some royal/jedi influence to have her freed
> 
> ...



deez sarlacc wide plot holes don't have the high ground


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> It would have been cool had George instead of wanting to sell toys to kids actually put some substance in his work and made a creepy serial killer story with Anakin when his unchecked dark side powers were influencing him and mind raping padme into loving him
> 
> that would have been interesting



i...nah man this is a broad mass-market blockbuster, your protagonist can't go around raping people or you'll be too repulsed by him to give a shit about his tragic downfall, which will actually just be satisfying...for the 5 people who show up for movie 3 after that shit happens in movie 2

"we didn't give a shit about it to begin with" yeah but that doesn't make this horrible idea better


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> rofl don't leave that shit in like it made any sense
> 
> the only reason anakin had that guilt was because after tpm, apparently him, qui gon, AND padme all forgot that his mom was still a damn slave, and they couldn't shell out a buck or exert some royal/jedi influence to have her freed



She was eventually freed and was adamant about staying on Tattooine .



Lucaniel said:


> his upbringing aside from him just forgetting that his mom existed after he fucked off and left her, though, wasn't even tragic. poor, sure, but he didn't seem ill-adjusted on tattooine, and he seemed to have had fun in his time with obi-wan as a padawan



He put on a good face so his mom wouldn't feel like shit. But later in his life witnessing slavery or lost of freewill would always strike a cord with him, and his childhood wasn't something he could easily talk about.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> She was eventually freed and was adamant about staying on Tattooine .


she wasn't freed by him or by anyone connected to him

so it's still retarded



> He put on a good face so his mom wouldn't feel like shit. But later in his life witnessing slavery or lost of freewill would always strike a cord with him and *his childhood wasn't something he could easily talk about.*


none of this changes what i said about his childhood not actually being portrayed as particularly traumatic or his child character not being portrayed as ill-adjusted or traumatised

yeah especially since he didn't do shit to free his mom 

you get suspicion cuz u a full fledged prequel defender, gesy :byakuya


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> i...nah man this is a broad mass-market blockbuster, your protagonist can't go around raping people or you'll be too repulsed by him to give a shit about his tragic downfall, which will actually just be satisfying...for the 5 people who show up for movie 3 after that shit happens in movie 2
> 
> "we didn't give a shit about it to begin with" yeah but that doesn't make this horrible idea better



people?

i only meant padme 

who he was obsessively fixated on


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> people?
> 
> i only meant padme
> 
> who he was obsessively fixated on



nothing about what i said changes


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> It would have been cool had George instead of wanting to sell toys to kids actually put some substance in his work and made a creepy serial killer story with Anakin when his unchecked dark side powers were influencing him and mind raping padme into loving him
> 
> that would have been interesting


good thing you didn't write the prequels


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nJS-LPcFfw[/YOUTUBE]

i guess we can all agree then it was all haydontactagain with his awful delivery and george the cg wiper lucas' and his piss poor directing and editing that ruined these movies even if there was some small semblance of something that can be mined from a backstory nobody ever wanted


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> good thing you didn't write the prequels



dis bandwagon hoe


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> but literally everything about it is bad



Agreed.

@Stunna


How am I supposed to believe you about saying the prequels are bad when you're not being as analytically critical as the rest of us? 

U even are giving benefit of doubt to some blatantly terribad scenes in Revenge of the sith.

Not a penny worth of it is good.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> nothing about what i said changes



but it like already happened sorta

padme was so uncomfortable with the relationship for a variety of reasons that anakin had to get his stalker on and creeped into her pants

just piss poor handling of it in the movie made it come off as clumsy and awkward


----------



## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

But Padme was so in love she lost the will to live


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> but it like already happened sorta
> 
> padme was so uncomfortable with the relationship for a variety of reasons that anakin had to get his stalker on and creeped into her pants
> 
> just piss poor handling of it in the movie made it come off as clumsy and awkward



cmon
that is a loooong way from anakin mindraping her into fucking him


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I already have said the prequels suck
> 
> dozens of times



You're not being very genuine. 



> but I think it's incredibly stupid to hate something so much that you won't even defend it even when it's valid to do so



There's not an iota good scenes,dialogue,writing that is worth my defense of the prequels. I like the double lightsaber concept. That's it. Everything else can burn in a fire for all I care.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Vault said:


> But Padme was so in love she lost the will to live



anakin got her so lost in the duck side sauce she lost the game


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> she wasn't freed by him or by anyone connected to him
> 
> so it's still retarded



He did make a vow to come back and save her, but he was going through jedi training at the time and I don't think the council would be too keen on him taking personal vacations.Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe the jedi are meant to renounce their old life.

Padme could have done something sure




Lucaniel said:


> none of this changes what i said about his childhood not actually being portrayed as particularly traumatic or his child character not being portrayed as ill-adjusted or traumatised
> 
> yeah especially since he didn't do shit to free his mom
> 
> you get suspicion cuz u a full fledged prequel defender, gesy :byakuya



It could've been executed and set up better-- like everything else in the prequel trilogy, sure. but..trust me Anne wasn't happy about being a slave .

And I can defend something without thinking it's of considerable quality.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> dis bandwagon hoe


how



Bender said:


> How am I supposed to believe you--


And who said it matters what you believe?



Bender said:


> There's not an iota good scenes,dialogue,writing that is worth my defense of the prequels. I like the double lightsaber concept. That's it. Everything else can burn in a fire for all I care.


Good for you, guy.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Vault said:


> But Padme was so in love she lost the will to live



Medically I'm healthy but because of so much anguish at my status as a single person I've lost the will to live. So I shall proceed to sit and do nothing until I die.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

if you think turning Anakin into a mind-rapist would have improved the prequels, you show a huge misunderstanding of why they were bad, and how they could have been bettered


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]eAKtZ_r0V6E[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> He did make a vow to come back and save her, but he was going through jedi training at the time and I don't think the council would be too keen on him taking personal vacations.Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe the jedi are meant to renounce their old life.
> 
> Padme could have done something sure


jedi are also meant to not fall in love so don't gimme dat bullshit fam, anakin left his own mother a slave and went off gallivanting with obi wan and apparently didn't give her a second thought while his head was filled with jerking off about padme. vow or no vow, he ain't do shit. and no-one else helped. it's blates bad writing




> It could've been executed and set up better-- like everything else in the prequel trilogy, sure. but..trust me Anne wasn't happy about being a slave .
> 
> And I can defend something without thinking it's of considerable quality.


there's a long way between not having a happy childhood and having a "tragic" childhood 

those who defend garbage are garbage :byakuya


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

stay trash bin stunnoscar :byakuya


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]hi5jjXTPtyY[/YOUTUBE]

I bet you don't have a problem with this line do you Stunna


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> stay trash bin stunnoscar :byakuya


>thinks Anakin should have mind-raped Padme

yeah, you can't talk



Bender said:


> I bet you don't have a problem with this line do you Stunna


false


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

unless you would give each movie a 0/10, you can't call someone garbage for finding select things in the movies worth defending


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Bender said:


> [YOUTUBE]hi5jjXTPtyY[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> I bet you don't have a problem with this line do you Stunna



george thought he could be clever and poetic

having anakin give allusions and contrast to his hatred of tattooine and the desert wasteland it is to the beauty of naboo

it ended up just like everything in the prequels, awkward and awful


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

I believe it was said he always missed his mother. But I can't remember every line of dialogue in those films.



> trag?ic
> ˈtrajik/
> adjective
> adjective: tragic
> ...



I consider having a strong reaction when witnessing slavery and injustices signs of past tragedy fam. But lets leave it at that.

And fine, I'm garbage.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

luc is right it's so forced

he was a happy go lucky optimistic kid as a slave

and then his mother was eventually freed

him developing some super hatred for slaveowners and the plight of slaves all of sudden is such a 180 on his prior character

just shows him as a petulant teenager who can't control his emotions and turning into another sasuke

at least sasuke had a really fucked up backstory


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> george thought he could be clever and poetic
> 
> having anakin give allusions and contrast to his hatred of tattooine and the desert wasteland it is to the beauty of naboo
> 
> it ended up just like everything in the prequels, awkward and awful




I haven't been on many dates and shouldn't talk about what pisses you off but this is just awful in every aspect of the word "romantic". :rofl Even when attempting to be poetic like Lucas was here.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I'm guessing you missed the memo that the fall of Anakin Skywalker was supposed to be the tragic fall of a good hero and a good man
> 
> neither of which would mind rape a woman into loving him
> 
> ...



i was just commenting on how George already made Anakin a piece of shit

suggesting to at least make him interesting


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I believe it was said he always missed his mother. But I can't remember every line of dialogue in those films.



I think Anakin should officially be called child murderer. Like after having a conversation with his mom 2 min later he ends up slaughtering all the sand people (including their children).


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

rape = interesting?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

_that's_ what's been missing from the prequels this whole time! rape!

good job, Warudo; you figured it out


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Mind rape does make the world go round.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> rape = interesting?



no influencing others through subtle or maybe not so subtle mystical suggestion 


palpatineheadturn.gif


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

the original killgrave


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

just to get this straight:

Warudo thinks that Anakin Skywalker using the Force to make Padme fall in love with, and have sex with him (which is rape), resulting in a pregnancy, would improve the Star Wars saga


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

he already killed defenseless women and children

i think if you had the force to get women to sleep with you is pretty low on the moral rung


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Warudo thinks that Anakin Skywalker using the Force to make Padme fall in love with, and have sex with him (which is rape), resulting in a pregnancy, would improve the Star Wars saga



Even though that's plenty extreme; most of what Anakin did against the sand people (including the children who DIDN'T DO DICK to his mommy) was way psycho as fuck. I wouldn't mind two fucks if he did that. The damage was done with the Phantom Menace.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

whelp, you two are nuts.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> no influencing others through subtle or maybe not so subtle mystical suggestion
> 
> 
> palpatineheadturn.gif



you specifically put forward the scenario of rape warudo pls


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

i'm nuts for speaking the truth?

carebear  mods + naive = stunna


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> you specifically put forward the scenario of rape warudo pls



yes because i was imagining anakin as a norman bates type character which he already kind of is a psycho 

a crippled autistic easily manipulated and temperamental psycho


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

this kid coddling fool

i bet you want to buy a jar jar binks toy now


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> just to get this straight:
> 
> Warudo thinks that Anakin Skywalker using the Force to make Padme fall in love with, and have sex with him (which is rape), resulting in a pregnancy, would improve the Star Wars saga



Ayyy


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@Stunna

My god bro you're doing that whole cop-out crap you did to me when you couldn't deal with the fact that RT is used as a indicator of a film's quality.  

If you want to be a good debater exiting a argument that way is a pretty tactless.


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

i mean didn't vader blow up a whole planet

didn't he hunt down jedi for 20 years?

didn't he choke out his wife?

didn't he kill children all because he was scared of some vague dream?

didn't he cut off his son's hand and rape his mind?

didn't he kill obi wan his own and his sons mentor/father figure/brother in front of said son too?

didn't he cut off dooku's head?

MIND RAPE IS TOO MUCH DOE GAIZ


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Stunna
> 
> My god bro you're doing that whole cop-out crap you did to me when you couldn't deal with the fact that RT is used as a indicator of a film's quality.
> 
> If you want to be a good debater exiting a argument that way is a pretty tactless.


make a good argument for once and I might put in some effort into rebutting it


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

>bender making a good argument

he is a self confessed autistic


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

The World said:


> i mean didn't vader blow up a whole planet
> 
> didn't he hunt down jedi for 20 years?
> 
> ...


he did all of that _after_ becoming a Sith Lord, dumbass


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

at this point i feel like i'm trolling

but i'm rolling with it


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> he did all of that _after_ becoming a Sith Lord, dumbass



all of that huh?


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Sturr wurr thread...so hot right now


----------



## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

This thread is so bad


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Warudo


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

when in doubt; say you were trolling

Warudo knows how to play ball, fam.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> he did all of that _after_ becoming a Sith Lord, dumbass



Didn't he slaughter an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders, women and children included?

THAT was before Anakin became a Sith Lord, *and beheading Dooku was also before becoming a Sith Lord.*


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> good thing you didn't write the prequels



Yeah,  I always find it funny when people point out someone's poor work before detailing how they would fuck things up.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Didn't he slaughter an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders, women and children included?
> 
> THAT was before Anakin became a Sith Lord, *and beheading Dooku was also before becoming a Sith Lord.*



there aint no tusken raider women and children

there're just tusken raider midgets and tusken raiders with titties


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

Bender said:


> If you want to be a good debater exiting a argument that way is a pretty tactless.



 (I am laughing at you).


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> rape = interesting?





Stunna said:


> _that's_ what's been missing from the prequels this whole time! rape!
> 
> good job, Warudo; you figured it out





Stunna said:


> just to get this straight:
> 
> Warudo thinks that Anakin Skywalker using the Force to make Padme fall in love with, and have sex with him (which is rape), resulting in a pregnancy, would improve the Star Wars saga


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Didn't he slaughter an entire tribe of Tusken Raiders, women and children included?
> 
> THAT was before Anakin became a Sith Lord, *and beheading Dooku was also before becoming a Sith Lord.*


Since Warudo specifically mentioned children, I took it he was talking about the murder of the Jedi children. And I overlooked Dooku, but at least that was Anakin killing a _Sith Lord_ and it happened in the movie that was about his downfall.

Regardless, adding more heinous acts to the list does not improve the movies.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

flutter prolly wishes anakin introduced himself as a high functioning sociopath


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> flutter prolly wishes anakin introduced himself as a high functioning sociopath





Christensen is no Cumberbatch doe


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

well, he's better looking 



but no cumby is a better actor


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

I wish Anakin was like me

Intelligent, Nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humour


----------



## Parallax (Jan 4, 2016)

Man i gotta say this thread is all over the place but always worth reading.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@Stunna

lol

it hardly about me and warudo arguments but your refusal to denounce  bad writing. Us not giving two shits about "Mindrape" added to a franchise that uses it frequently hardly makes us look like bad fans who would do worse than Lucas did with SW.


----------



## Parallax (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I wish Anakin was like me
> 
> Intelligent, Nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humour



U ain't funny doe


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

The prequels were going down the shitter as soon as TPM hit the silver screen. 


That annoying pod racing bitch is considered Obi-Wan's friend is chuckle-ville.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@Stunna

Looking at all you've said you think it's possible to salvage the prequels as enjoyable despite them being absolutely awful.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Parallax said:


> U ain't funny doe



Anakin aint funny either. He funny to laugh at because of his fuck-ups though. 


[YOUTUBE]8s0OHl_nFUU[/YOUTUBE]



Might as well call Padme a p*d*p**** cuz she married a little boy that don't know when to shut his trap. 

Heads up this is the trilogy that Stunna thinks is "tolerable".


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I wish Anakin was like me
> 
> Intelligent, Nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humour


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

quote one post where I said that the prequel trilogy was tolerable

just one


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

like, c'mon man

at least do me the courtesy of not putting words in my mouth.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> quote one post where I said that the prequel trilogy was tolerable
> 
> just one



are you still talking to bender...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> like me
> 
> Nihilistic


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@Stunna

This post here is you veiling your tolerance towards it



> *but I think it's incredibly stupid to hate something so much that you won't even defend it even when it's valid to do so*, or to hate something so much that you'd say something as dumb as "literally everything about it is bad", and actually mean it



Everything about the prequels is hate-worthy. 

Lucas forgot that Leia was a baby and yet she says in ROTJ that she remembers what her mother looks like.

SERIOUSLY? 

Also you saying that this



> *when people say something like "literally everything about it is bad", chances are they're overlooking a shit ton of stuff that isn't actually bad*, it's just in a bad overall production





> one example: the music



Citing the music as something that ISN'T SO BAD hardly saves it from crushing criticism.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Stunna
> 
> This post here is you veiling your tolerance towards it
> 
> ...


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)




----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


>



I feel like I know who this person is


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

If Bender was in the same room as a plastic bag, I would not put my money on Bender walking out of the room alive.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Spent an entire day busting the balls of Stunna and talking about the shitquels prequels let's talk about the movie again. 

How many times have you see TFA? And in what formats?

Seen it three times now. 

First time Real d 3d and second and third in IMAX.   

May see it a fourth time via a date with someone.

EDIT:

~Gesy~

Oh great, look your retarded obnoxiousness has brought out Gunners stupid elite self.


----------



## Atlas (Jan 4, 2016)

If we all put him on super ignore, it would be like he never existed.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I feel like I know who this person is



it's our favourite verbose autist


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@Atlas

I have Gunners, Lucaniel on ignore and its just fun on a bun. Fucking love it. Am contemplating whether to put you on ignore now. 

You're certainly doing a wonderful job emulating your little idols.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Atlas said:


> If we all put him on super ignore, it would be like he never existed.



I vowed not to use the function, but I will say it never been more tempting.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I vowed not to use the function



what kinda homo shit


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I vowed not to use the function, but I will say it never been more tempting.



You're the most fat-headed of this elitist lot for believing that someone has lost their credibility because they  think TFA is superior to the original film A new Hope. It's called an opinion guy.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

> It's called an opinion guy.


did he       just...


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> did he       just...



even animals learn, stunna

cmon, learn


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

I currently have 11 people on SI  (huey was the 11-th)


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

for me it's more like 110


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> it's our favourite verbose autist



top kek


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> even animals learn, stunna
> 
> cmon, learn


I wasn't talking to Bender, I was talking _about_ Bender.

"did he just" =/= "did you just"


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Weiss said:


> I currently have 11 people on SI  (huey was the 11-th)



I might as well put Huey on super ignore since he's dying to be on the list with Lucaniel, and Gunners.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I wasn't talking to Bender, I was talking _about_ Bender.



Awwww, I didn't know you wanted to be romantically involved with me homie.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I wasn't talking to Bender, I was talking _about_ Bender.
> 
> "did he just" =/= "did you just"


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

I've been contemplating SIing this gilgamesh character


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> -snip-


it's true 



Nighty said:


> I've been contemplating SIing this gilgamesh character


saaame


----------



## Atlas (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I've been contemplating SIing this gilgamesh character



He's funny, though. At least in the OP section.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Even when Lucaniel isn't on ignore he's hilarious because of threads bitching about all the times he's been banned in the Blender section.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

When I found out a younger cousin of mine was locked up for mugging an old woman, a shiver went down my spine as I considered something horrific.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I've been contemplating SIing this gilgamesh character



that was a day 1 fam 

say the prequels were better than this? day 1


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> what kinda homo shit



lol it goes against why I post here, I used to think _everyone_ has the chance of offering something insightful, now i'm not so sure.


Weiss said:


> I currently have 11 people on SI  (huey was the 11-th)



at least Huey's post can occasionally be an entertaining read(in a trashy reality show kind of way).


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

lol oops, confused WAD with Luc. Eh, more or less same tune from the two girls because they can't flame and get away with it.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I wasn't talking to Bender, I was talking _about_ Bender.
> 
> "did he just" =/= "did you just"



Will someone change Stunna's name to Semantics christ almighty


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Will someone change Stunna's name to Semantics christ almighty



more like semen tick


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Will someone change Stunna's name to Semantics christ almighty


**


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> that was a day 1 fam
> 
> say the prequels were better than this? day 1



I'm aight with people expressing bad opinions like one time in one place

but this guy is starting to pop up in every single star wars thread

which makes me think he autistically searches them out to talk up the prequels

which is pretty SI worthy

so tbh I'm doing it


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> _everyone_ has the chance of offering something insightful



trust me

this is the opposite of true


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> more like semen tick


booooooooooooo


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> more like semen tick



thats some pretty gross imagery you sick fuck



Stunna said:


> **


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I'm aight with people expressing bad opinions like one time in one place
> 
> but this guy is starting to pop up in every single star wars thread
> 
> ...



thing is that's a dealbreaker opinion

if you truly believe that then you ain't ever gonna say anything worth reading so you might as well stop being an eyesore

is the logic


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

more like semen trick tbh


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Will someone change Stunna's name to Semantics christ almighty



Might as well label this thread

Star Wars: Autism Awakens because we've basically cycling through everything Stunna can't accept.  Hell here's a list of what I gathered



The reality of there not being a single thing good about the prequels (He denies it)

 
The music of the prequels is something we can look at as being the only enjoyable thing about it and look at it entirely negative.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

Best part of the prequels is that it let us have The Clone Wars


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Best part of the sequels is that it let us have The Clone Wars



I still need to check out The Clone Wars. Only checked out the episode with "The Ones" family because I grew interested in that character Abeloth in the books. Suppose I can check out more. Only Clone Wars tv series I watched devotedly is Gennedy's Clone Wars.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

Season 2 and beyond is really, really good. I'm at the end of 3


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Ahsoka is or isn't going to show up in the films? She should be a middle-aged lady by now yeah?


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I'm aight with people expressing bad opinions like one time in one place
> 
> but this guy is starting to pop up in every single star wars thread
> 
> ...



more like semen tick fam


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

I don't think they're putting Ahsoka in the films. We don't even know if she lives past Rebels


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

Yeah, Vader will probably butcher her.


----------



## Vault (Jan 4, 2016)

Yeah I'm done 

Hitting that unsubscribing button this is too much


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

you're unlikely to see developments be carried over from out of movie stuff into the movies

it will probably be the other way around aside from a few things.


----------



## Tempproxy (Jan 4, 2016)

I hope they remember that Luke should be near enough a god Jedi in episode 8,  if some stupid shit like Kylo Ren or some ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) kills him I will be done with this series. The Skywalker bloodline is the most powerful bloodline relating to the force in this universe. And the more they procreate the more weaker the family should obviously get but Luke is a first generation Skywalker his grandfather is the force so he should be wreaking shit come episode 8.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

On the film, I wonder if Leia felt any guilt over Han's death? Her son was a bit of a ruthless killer and she pressured Han into trying to get through to him. Thought it was a bit selfish and naive of her to be honest.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

I definitely expect to see Leia grieving and blaming herself in the next movie. This will coincide with Kylo hunting her down to complete his transition to the Dark Side. He will find her, and she will finally renounce him as her son...before whipping out her lightsaber and fighting to avenge Han.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I definitely expect to see Leia grieving and blaming herself in the next movie. This will coincide with Kylo hunting her down to complete his transition to the Dark Side. He will find her, and she will finally renounce him as her son...before whipping out her lightsaber and fighting to avenge Han.



oh christ

pls no 

carrie fisher's face is so swollen with botox that she could barely do expressions, i want to see as little of her attempted acting as possible

let alone more geriatric lightsaber fights


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> oh christ
> 
> pls no
> 
> ...


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

what the fuck is that man


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

seriously, though

I'm not sayin' she has to whip out her own lightsaber or anything, but I do want to see Leia using the Force at some point in these movies

lemme alone, Gunners


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

Gunners said:


> On the film, I wonder if Leia felt any guilt over Han's death? Her son was a bit of a ruthless killer and she pressured Han into trying to get through to him. Thought it was a bit selfish and naive of her to be honest.



Maaaaaan

It's their responsibility; they brought him into this world, why _shouldn't_ Han attempt to get through to his boy?

It's understandable for her to feel guilt but what she asked of him was not out of bounds.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Stunna said:


> seriously, though
> 
> I'm not sayin' she has to whip out her own lightsaber or anything, but I do want to see Leia using the Force at some point in these movies
> 
> lemme alone, Gunners



maybe to handle battle strategies or something


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

whipping out a lightsaber sounds lewd as fuck


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> Maaaaaan
> 
> It's their responsibility; they brought him into this world, why _shouldn't_ Han attempt to get through to his boy?
> 
> It's understandable for her to feel guilt but what she asked of him was not out of bounds.



Their responsibility... so why didn't she go with Han? She effectively left him with all of the risk and he died as a result. 

Anyway, what she requested was selfish and naive. Ren isn't some kid who joined the local gang; he slaughtered a bunch of innocent Jedi, he continues to slaughter and brutalise innocents across the universe, and he was complicit in the destruction of worlds. That is what Leia knows of him.

Risking an important mission to get through to a ruthless killer is selfish; if Ren was not her son, the thought would not cross her mind. Asking Han to reach him is either incredibly naive or incredibly selfish: a normal person would see the risk which points towards her not valuing Han's life; if she valued Han's life, to the point that she wouldn't gamble it over their son, she is incredibly naive for not seeing the grim possibility.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

She was handling operations at the base so it was a "since you're already going you may as well give it a shot.." kind of thing.

She never said Ben wasn't going to pay for his crimes, she only wanted him to come back alive.

> if Ren was not her son

But he is therefore judgement will always be clouded. What kind of mother hold their children on equal standard as everyone else? It was love that redeemed Vader, maybe she felt it was possible for Kylo as well.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 4, 2016)

all this shitposting


----------



## Raiden (Jan 4, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I wish Kylo was defeated in this movie lol.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

He was.


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 4, 2016)

but he was 

Rey beat him which is kerosene to the fire of the "she's a Mary Sue" autism fire even though 

1) he was physically handicapped from being badly wounded by Chewy
2) his emotional state was hampering his physical ability on top of that (killing his dad has momentarily made him weaker, not stronger as he wished which is how he even got hit by chewy)
3) he had no killing intent against rey


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Rey da GOAT Mary Sue


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2016)

Jedi Grand Master Rey in episode 8


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

The Millennium Falcon will be well taken care of now that it's in the hands of a better pilot.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Rey's good peoples tho


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

I want rey to do all kinda retarded shit that annoys power levels ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) 

next movie she should do a moon drop


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

Rey about to teach Luke how to use a fucking lightsaber next movie


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Nighty said:


> whipping out a lightsaber sounds lewd as fuck



i whip my sabe back and forth


----------



## The World (Jan 4, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> I don't think they're putting Ahsoka in the films. We don't even know if she lives past Rebels



wasn't she in the season 2 premiere?

nooooooooooooooooooo 

meh not like i care

never watched the original series where she was introduced


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

i meant the entire series, i'm sure she's probably dead by the events of episode IV


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

Is ahsoka aware that anakin is vader?


----------



## Gunners (Jan 4, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> She was handling operations at the base so it was a "since you're already going you may as well give it a shot.." kind of thing.



If rescuing Ren was worth the obvious risk, and was so important to her, she would have handed over her duties to someone else. Thinking about it, that's exactly what you would do in a situation where you start making decisions as a mother as opposed to decisions as a leader. 



> She never said Ben wasn't going to pay for his crimes, she only wanted him to come back alive.


Which is still selfish and naive. 



> > if Ren was not her son
> 
> But he is therefore judgement will always be clouded. What kind of mother hold their children on equal standard as everyone else? It was love that redeemed Vader, maybe she felt it was possible for Kylo as well.



A clouded judgement does not prevent a judgement from being selfish and naive. In this instance, it can be said that her clouded judgement resulted in her being selfish and naive. 

That being said, I would expect a mother in a leadership position, where billions of lives are on the line, to act impartially. To that end, whilst it is reasonable of her to feel redemption is possible for Ren, it is unreasonable to risk so much over her hopes as a mother.



Nighty said:


> Is ahsoka aware that anakin is vader?



She blacked out when sensing Vader. It has not been stated but I'm guessing she recognised his presence.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

Yeah I think she felt it. Vader recognized her for sure, though.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Weiss said:


> Jedi Grand Master Rey in episode 8



W00t!

I can dig that shit happening. 

The girl already shag-worthy. 

Finn need to step his pimp game up if he wants to cut a piece of that cake.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 4, 2016)

I wonder, is the standard for nerds not-ugly when it comes to whether someone is hot or not?

Carrie Fischer was never that attractive to me, and Rey is cute, but in a child-like way almost


----------



## Stunna (Jan 4, 2016)

Prime Fischer could get it.

But she's overrated.


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

@Super Mike

Carrie Fisher even at her prime has always been in the "meh" category.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jan 4, 2016)

Link removed

I did my review for this movie I hope people enjoy. 

Also Rey > Prime fisher.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 4, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> I wonder, is the standard for nerds not-ugly when it comes to whether someone is hot or not?
> 
> Carrie Fischer was never that attractive to me, and Rey is cute, but in a child-like way almost



dat subtle attempt to distance himself from being a nerd


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)




----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2016)

axel rose pls go


----------



## Bender (Jan 4, 2016)

Ugh

Looks like Marilyn Manson's fugly step-sister

Shit look like that chick who play Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 4, 2016)

**


----------



## Atlas (Jan 5, 2016)

I'm thinking Leia will die in 8 and Luke will bite the dust in 9. Maybe the other way around.


----------



## Lance (Jan 5, 2016)

Why do they still call her Leia Organa?

She is a Skywalker.
She should be Leia Skywalker. That shit always bothered me.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> dat subtle attempt to distance himself from being a nerd



I'm def a nerd, but Leia was just never hot and I never got it


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 5, 2016)

Lance said:


> Why do they still call her Leia Organa?
> 
> She is a Skywalker.
> She should be Leia Skywalker. That shit always bothered me.



Because she was adopted by royalty or something. She is princess Organa


----------



## Mider T (Jan 5, 2016)

Yeah,  legally she's adopted,  just like people IRL go by their adopted name.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 5, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Because she was adopted by royalty or something. She is princess Organa



she was the heiress to House Organa, one of the preeminent noble houses of Westeros Alderan...but then Tarkin blew it up.

Now she's just a scrub General.


----------



## Raiden (Jan 5, 2016)

Stunna said:


> He was.





WAD said:


> but he was
> 
> Rey beat him which is kerosene to the fire of the "she's a Mary Sue" autism fire even though
> 
> ...



No idea why I wrote that . Meant to write killed.

In all seriousness, I loved the film. Rewatched two of the older movies.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 5, 2016)

BB-8 was so good


----------



## Zeta42 (Jan 5, 2016)

There won't be a new protocol droid?


----------



## Jessica (Jan 5, 2016)

Weiss said:


> BB-8 was so good



That little thumbs up to Finn was so adorable and funny. I didn't think that I could like BB-8 more than R2-D2, but I think really do now.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

Zeta42 said:


> There won't be a new protocol droid?


Does there need to be?


----------



## Zeta42 (Jan 5, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Does there need to be?


I'd rather have a new protocol droid than a new Death Star. Bonus point if it's like HK-47 (if not an assassin, then at least personality-wise).


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

man enough with the OT echoes 

a new protocol droid, smh


----------



## sworder (Jan 5, 2016)

Raiden said:


> No idea why I wrote that . Meant to write killed.
> 
> In all seriousness, I loved the film. Rewatched two of the older movies.



why

that's one of the many reasons why the prequels suck. random villains with no development that no one cares about killed every film

meanwhile the OT had vader from beginning to end

developing kylo is the only way this trilogy can stand against the original


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

sworder said:


> developing kylo is the only way this trilogy can stand against the original


the _only_ way?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

and I dunno; criticizing villains dying in the same installment they showed up in seems nitpicky

the problem seems to be more that they arguably weren't developed well within one movie more than the fact that they were only in one movie


----------



## Pocalypse (Jan 5, 2016)

Got a few questions about the Sith that I don't know the answers to, would be great if they're answered 

1) Why is there a rule of two? Wouldn't having more than two Siths bolster your forces even further? 

2) Does the apprentice have to kill the master in order for him/her to be the strongest Sith? Or is that the only way to prove your strength?

I'm p sure this wasn't mentioned in the films since that's the only media I focus on regarding SW, if it was, then I've forgotten in which film this info was mentioned in


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

Pocalypse said:


> Got a few questions about the Sith that I don't know the answers to, would be great if they're answered
> 
> 1) Why is there a rule of two? Wouldn't having more than two Siths bolster your forces even further?
> 
> ...



1. you're right, it would. i think the EU explanation is that sith are crabs in a bucket and if you have more than two in a clearly defined master/apprentice relationship they're just gonna fight each other instead of uniting against the jedi, cuz unity just isn't a sith trait. so they have to covertly pursue the sith agenda, two at a time, which comes to fruition with sidious and vader

2. i think so, yeah, you have to kill the master


----------



## sworder (Jan 5, 2016)

also HK ain't a protocol droid, he's an assassin droid 

would be awesome if Kylo got an HK droid tho



Stunna said:


> and I dunno; criticizing villains dying in the same installment they showed up in seems nitpicky
> 
> the problem seems to be more that they arguably weren't developed well within one movie more than the fact that they were only in one movie



it's not possible for another random sith to appear next movie out of nowhere and still be properly developed


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

> it's not possible for another random sith to appear next movie out of nowhere and still be properly developed



that's kind of a ridiculous assertion in the context of all the great villains in cinema that only exist for one movie


----------



## sworder (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> that's kind of a ridiculous assertion in the context of all the great villains in cinema that only exist for one movie



I mean, for story purposes, having to explain how there's still another sith lord somewhere coming out of the woodworks with no previous foreshadowing would immediately put the writing in this trilogy below the OT imo


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> that's kind of a ridiculous assertion in the context of all the great villains in cinema that only exist for one movie


yup                 .


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

sworder said:


> I mean, for story purposes, having to explain how there's still another sith lord somewhere coming out of the woodworks with no previous foreshadowing would immediately put the writing in this trilogy below the OT imo



when you say sith lord do you mean someone with the status of snoke or sidious? or do you just mean a sith? cuz yes, it would be random for another person like snoke to turn yep. but there's no problem with another sith like kylo, an apprentice or journeyman type who isn't a master or a "lord", turning up


----------



## Pocalypse (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> 1. you're right, it would. i think the EU explanation is that sith are crabs in a bucket and if you have more than two in a clearly defined master/apprentice relationship they're just gonna fight each other instead of uniting against the jedi, cuz unity just isn't a sith trait. so they have to covertly pursue the sith agenda, two at a time, which comes to fruition with sidious and vader
> 
> 2. i think so, yeah, you have to kill the master



1) So if you have more than two Siths, does that mean every master for every apprentice or just one master attached to multiple apprentices? Wouldn't having 1 main guy (Palpatine for example) who overlooks multiple masters and apprentices work? This looks like a management problem to me that could be solved

2) Alright, seems trust issues is fucked up between their own kind even.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

the new villain wouldn't need to be a Sith Lord anyway


----------



## sworder (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> when you say sith lord do you mean someone with the status of snoke or sidious? or do you just mean a sith? cuz yes, it would be random for another person like snoke to turn yep. but there's no problem with another sith like kylo, an apprentice or journeyman type who isn't a master or a "lord", turning up



between snoke and luke training kylo and marey sue, if it's not a sith lord then what's the point


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

sworder said:


> between snoke and luke training kylo and marey sue, if it's not a sith lord then what's the point



wat?

i have no idea what point is being made here


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

Pocalypse said:


> 1) So if you have more than two Siths, does that mean every master for every apprentice or just one master attached to multiple apprentices? Wouldn't having 1 main guy (Palpatine for example) who overlooks multiple masters and apprentices work? This looks like a management problem to me that could be solved
> 
> 2) Alright, seems trust issues is fucked up between their own kind even.



1. the existence of more than two siths doesn't really happen cuz they stick rigidly to the rule of two. i think there are some eu stories where rival siths set up some society based on a different rule? but yeah, they don't try to get around the rule of two by having multiple pairs like you're saying


----------



## Gunners (Jan 5, 2016)

I can understand why the rule of two exists. When Maul returned,  he instantly gained control of the criminal world and Sidious had to twnd to him personally. Then you have Dooku training Ventress on the side and Vader pursuing Luke.

They're things he had to stay on top of which would become morw difficult if there were 100s of sith running around.


----------



## Zeta42 (Jan 5, 2016)

sworder said:


> also HK ain't a protocol droid, he's an assassin droid


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jan 5, 2016)

Rule of Two exists because Sith are greedy, so all the weaker Sith would gang up to off the stronger Sith before turning on each other. Rule 2 ensures Master and Apprentice, the apprentice has to outsmart and surpass the master who in turn has to compete with the apprentice. This allows each generation of Sith to surpass the previous. Occassionally an apprentice may take another but rarely, these are more like dark jedi or acolytes aka dark side grunts or mooks. These can become the main apprentice if they defeat the person they are under and get higher training from the master. Because Bane and his Sith kept artifacts, holocrons and such collected, if the apprentice offed the master too quickly?Well they could use the existing encyclopedia to continue training. 

Rule of Two was also important to hide from the Jedi for a 1000 years while Sith built themselves up from near extinction and begin their master plan, Palpatine's destruction of the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith is the culmination of his and previous Sith's plans. Palpatine in old EU, dumped this post Empire forming and began to train rogue Jedi to serve him, Vader was his main apprentice. Vader and Sidious trained others to do their grunt work at times or spying or whatever.


----------



## sworder (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> wat?
> 
> i have no idea what point is being made here



ok to explain my pov in more detail

in many films you can indeed have a great villain that only exists for one movie, but the fact that it's just one movie is exactly why that is possible

star wars has 6 other movies of backstory. kylo is the grandchild of vader, trained as padawan by luke, now being trained further by what should be the last remaining sith lord. no jedis left, and there shouldn't be any siths either since apparently they can feel their presence in the force when there's a force-sensitive being (like what happened with rey) and the knights of ren have been operating in the galaxy for decades

i don't see how in the context of this story, they can kill off kylo and introduce a better one-off villain without having a bunch of plot holes, give him the level of exposition, potential, and significance kylo already has, and also end up becoming iconic like vader was (which is most definitely what disney wants because selling merchandise OP)

maul was shit, dooku was shit, grievous was shit

prequels tried and failed 3 times. pretty sure what they're doing now is better


----------



## sworder (Jan 5, 2016)

also

if Darth Maul had not died in episode I and instead had died in episode III (no dooku and grievous), how awesome would he have been?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

well Kylo isn't a Darth Maul

he needed to survive the movie because obviously he was written to. Maul obviously wasn't written to last, and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Neither was Grievous. Their faults were in how their time was used, not in the fact that the time they had was short.

disregarding the fact that I don't hate Maul, anyway


----------



## Gunners (Jan 5, 2016)

Rey and Kylo = Aang and Zuko. Hopefully, the trilogy does not end with his redemption; however, regardless of how things turn out, the series will focus on both of their developments. 

He didn't die at the end because the film is just the start for his character.


----------



## Bender (Jan 5, 2016)

@Stunna

Kylo was going to survive if Rey wanted to survive. If Rey attempted to kill him then Finn likely would've died due to the ground collapsing around them.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

> there shouldn't be any siths either since apparently they can feel their presence in the force when there's a force-sensitive being (like what happened with rey) and the knights of ren have been operating in the galaxy for decades



this doesn't follow 

that isn't a reason to not have siths 

we don't know if snoke follows the rule of two



sworder said:


> also
> 
> if Darth Maul had not died in episode I and instead had died in episode III (no dooku and grievous), how awesome would he have been?



he would have been the same mute character who operated entirely on design and gimmick lightsaber that he was in tpm 

meh


----------



## Gunners (Jan 5, 2016)

He didn't die. He stomped the fuck out of Obi Wan and killed the love of his life. He also had a criminal empire until Sidious decided to rag doll and shock him into submission. 

The series made his character work by giving him one.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2016)

I hate Zuko comparisons since  he was genuinely a good person, who was forced to be something he's not, because his father saw his kind heart as a weakness.  Kylo is simply going "darkness...better" on his own accord.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I hate Zuko comparisons since  he was genuinely a good person, who was forced to be something he's not, because his father saw his kind heart as a weakness.  Kylo is simply going "darkness...better" on his own accord.



we don't know that :byakuya


----------



## FLORIDA MAN (Jan 5, 2016)

all the villains in the prequels would have been inherently crap because they were inherently going to be overshadowed by the tale of how anakin turned

the 'impressive' villain of the prequels was supposed to be sidious but headturn.gif


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> we don't know that :byakuya



It damn sure wasn't by Luke, Leia, or Han. 

We know he was an angry kid who was sent to Luke for meditation. We know learning about Vader made him give in to that anger. So i'm leaning towards this being his choice.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 5, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I hate Zuko comparisons since  he was genuinely a good person, who was forced to be something he's not, because his father saw his kind heart as a weakness.  Kylo is simply going "darkness...better" on his own accord.



I didn't say their characters were similar. I was referring to the focus placed on the characters. Ultimately, Avatar followed the growth of Zuko and Aang the same way this trilogy will follow the growth of Rey and Kylo.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2016)

Gunners said:


> I didn't say their characters were similar. I was referring to the focus placed on the characters. Ultimately, Avatar followed the growth of Zuko and Aang the same way this trilogy will follow the growth of Rey and Kylo.



Yeah I know, that was more towards those who consider Zuko and Kylo to be similar characters , because all silent, dark archetypes are similar.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 5, 2016)

han pushed kylo to be dark by taking away his eyeshadow


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2016)

"My parents doesn't understand me and I hate them"


----------



## Bender (Jan 5, 2016)

WAD said:


> all the villains in the prequels would have been inherently crap because they were inherently going to be overshadowed by the tale of how anakin turned



Lol that's a big ol' duh. 

In this case it's the gawdy execution that makes looking at the prequels the most painful movie experience in film history.


----------



## Raiden (Jan 5, 2016)

WAD for main villain in the next movie.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 5, 2016)

so is the argument that it'd be impossible for good villains to exist in the prequels because the movies heavily focused on the journey of their protagonist?


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> 1. you're right, it would. i think the EU explanation is that sith are crabs in a bucket and if you have more than two in a clearly defined master/apprentice relationship they're just gonna fight each other instead of uniting against the jedi, cuz unity just isn't a sith trait. so they have to covertly pursue the sith agenda, two at a time, which comes to fruition with sidious and vader
> 
> 2. i think so, yeah, you have to kill the master



Also I think I read somewhere that there only being two Sith at a time and because they're the only ones using the darkside, their force power is more concentrated? That might be bullshit tho


----------



## Raiden (Jan 5, 2016)

Stunna said:


> so is the argument that it'd be impossible for good villains to exist in the prequels because the movies heavily focused on the journey of their protagonist?



And maybe a bit too much angst too. The juicy family drama makes Star Wars good, but I was honestly a little annoyed with Kylo Ren  because it was more of the same again.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 5, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Also I think I read somewhere that there only being two Sith at a time and because they're the only ones using the darkside, their force power is more concentrated? That might be bullshit tho



that kinda does sound like bullshit but it might still be in the EU cuz the EU has a lot of bullshit in it


----------



## Gunners (Jan 5, 2016)

It was not impossible to have a good villain in the prequel films. The build up to Anakin's demise didn't necessitate shallow villains. Villains with depth would have actually supported his demise. If they placed more focus on Palpatine pulling his strings, whilst gaining more power for himself, whilst presenting Dooku as the type of villain that needed harsh measures, Anakin would have been better for it. 

Ultimately, pressure and manipulation are the things that made him turn.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 5, 2016)

the rule of two is just because the sith are all dicks to each other

if you have 50 equal sith running around they kill each other for pocket change

if you only have two sith, and one of them is the master of the other, then this can't happen.


----------



## Bender (Jan 5, 2016)

Raiden said:


> And maybe a bit too much angst too. The juicy family drama makes Star Wars good, but I was honestly a little annoyed with Kylo Ren  because it was more of the same again.



Ehhh I think Kylo's angst was just at the appropriate level. Anakin's was just shit. the original u didn't even need to know of the prequels to have an idea of who Vader used to be to feel the emotion. It was there. The interviews explaining how Han and Leia started a family but it was torn apart is felt in their pained faces.

Also with Kylo fooling Han it probably just me but he was using exact wording when he told Han to free him of the pain. Han couldn't tell if he meant to genuinely free him from the dark side or not. However, the audience is fully aware he's playing him.

On other note: 

Going to see the film for a fourth time with a date on Friday.


----------



## Pocalypse (Jan 5, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Also I think I read somewhere that there only being two Sith at a time and because they're the only ones using the darkside, their force power is more concentrated? That might be bullshit tho



You mean the Rule of 2 breeds a stronger pair of Master/Apprentice generation by generation, that's one of the things I read after I started some digging from Luc's explanation. Man I might need to read some EU shit if it's not gonna be in the films, it should be possible to have more than 2 Siths in the galaxy, a Master/Apprentice is 2 Sith lords and others can be hiding, right? Since that's what most of them do before declaring themselves as Sith Lords.


----------



## Bender (Jan 5, 2016)

The rule of 2 shit should go away. IIRC Asaji did count as a sith. Her plus Dooku plus Palpatine seems like some squashing of the rule of two.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 5, 2016)

No, Sidious ordered Dooku to kill Ventress.

[youtube]Faz3aNUfMFQ[/youtube]


----------



## Arishem (Jan 5, 2016)




----------



## Jessica (Jan 5, 2016)

Oh                 my!


----------



## Banhammer (Jan 5, 2016)

"There's only ever two, a master and an apprentice" is a common sith theme, but it's mostly for each "genealogical branch"

A master will frequently dispose of an apprentice in order to gain a more powerful one, for example.


However, that doesn't mean there can't be multiple independent masters and aprentices


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 5, 2016)

There's only two...except when Master and Apprentice develop schemes behind each other's backs.


----------



## Bender (Jan 5, 2016)

Just an FYI folks:

Sidious also ordered Vader to kill Galen Marek yet Palpatine was still willing to recruit him following him beating down Vader.

Honestly Sith betrayal of another can be chalked up to something being ritualistic. Sorta like arc villains in Sailor Moon warring against each other.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 6, 2016)

The Rule of Two is supposed to be survival of the fittest.

A master takes on an apprentice and teaches them to the best of their abilities. When the apprentice has learned all that the master can teach, the apprentice challenges said master. If the master wins, good for the master, bad for the apprentice, but it's clear that the latter wasn't good enough to become a master in their own right. If the apprentice wins, it's great, because now the apprentice is a master in their own right, and has thus strengthened the Sith by surpassing the Sith Lord who came before them.

If the apprentice takes on their own apprentices, then it is only fitting that if the apprentice of the apprentice challenges his/her own master and wins, then clearly the victor is more deserving of the title of Sith Lord than the individual they vanquished.

It's why Palpatine is, according to canon, the most powerful Sith lord to come out of Bane's Rule of Two system. Each generation is expected to surpass the previous one (a rather dark take on similar sentiments in other stories), even if Palpatine's means of becoming a master went against Bane's ideals (taking out Plagueis in his sleep instead of confirming superiority through a direct challenge).

TL;DR: The Rule held regardless of people taking on multiple apprentices by virtue of there being only two Sith lords at any given time, and any challengers either got killed of or successfully challenged for the prospect of becoming a Sith Lord.

Sith (Master)
Sith (Apprentice)
Everyone else using the Dark Side (Wannabes)


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 6, 2016)




----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 6, 2016)

Cool poster


----------



## Raiden (Jan 6, 2016)




----------



## FlashYoruichi (Jan 6, 2016)

Do I need to see any of the other star wars movie to enjoy this one ?


----------



## sworder (Jan 6, 2016)

FlashYoruichi said:


> Do I need to see any of the other star wars movie to enjoy this one ?



not really, altho you will definitely miss out on a lot of context

but that would be a terrible idea because Episodes 4-6 are amazing so watch them first

ignore the prequels


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 6, 2016)

It follows the originals so A New hope, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi would need to be seen.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 6, 2016)

> *BOX OFFICE: STAR WARS: TFA Tops AVATAR To Become America's #1 Movie*
> 
> 
> 
> Star Wars: The Force Awakens has made history today by passing the domestic haul of Avatar. The J.J. Abrams helmed release currently has a total of $758.2 million, but will pass that movie's $760.5 million record later today. It took months for James Cameron's 3D epic to achieve that, but this return to a Galaxy Far, Far Away has done so in less than three weeks. However, Star Wars: The Force Awakens is still a long way off the $2.78 billion made by Avatar worldwide, and box office analysts have started to temper their expectations by revising predictions which now have the movie finishing its run around the $2.2 billion - $2.4 billion mark. That means it will pass Titanic to become the second highest grossing release in history, an incredible achievement, especially as it topping Avatar always seemed like something of a stretch. It's just a shame that 3D ticket sales aren't what they were back in 2009, because Star Wars: The Force Awakens would have effortlessly passed that movie's worldwide haul if that was the case. We'll have to wait and see anyway!


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

Honestly J.J film felt like reintroduction to Star Wars for me.

Just like Star Trek film did. Simply brilliant.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 6, 2016)

Nah,  they don't need to be seen. I've know a handful of people who enjoyed the film even though they haven't seen the originals. 

That being said, watch the originals.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 6, 2016)




----------



## Stunna (Jan 6, 2016)

it can only really be appreciated with the context of the other movies


----------



## Parallax (Jan 6, 2016)

Definitely agree with that sentiment, i don't think the movie is as enjoyable as a stand alone film with 0 previous context


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

I would go rewatch the originals if there wasn't that retarded additions like Greedo shooting Han and not Sebastian Shaw (whatever the fuck his name) force ghost appearing in ANH and ROTJ respectively. 
Fucking Lucas.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 6, 2016)

this is always what I foresaw

there was no way it could beat avatar precisely because avatar made its big bucks in a gimmick that just doesn't sell any more.

Avatar was THE 3d movie

it won't be topped until tickets have inflated enough for a huge blockbuster to scrape over it.


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

Imagine how disappointed Rey and Finn would be if they learned the rebels beat the Stormtroopers with the help of Ewoks.


----------



## sworder (Jan 6, 2016)

ngl, this movie is better in 3D than 2D

and I don't like 3D much


----------



## Stunna (Jan 6, 2016)

this movie did have good 3D, yes


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 6, 2016)

cam rip i saw was pretty gud too


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 6, 2016)

I haven't seen it in 3d yet

should I?


----------



## Gunners (Jan 6, 2016)

Shit, I'm going to have to watch this film in 3D.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 6, 2016)

if you enjoy TFA enough to see it again in theaters, you might as well do it in 3D


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 6, 2016)

Stunna said:


> if you enjoy TFA enough to see it again in theaters, you might as well do it in 3D



is the 3d on this really good?

edit:

ah i read back


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 6, 2016)

Stunna said:


> if you enjoy TFA enough to see it again in theaters, you might as well do it in 3D



k


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

Damn shame the date I going on Friday the movie only available in Real D 3D.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 6, 2016)

is it still worth it seeing it in 3D if you wear glasses? last time i saw a 3D movie was the latest pirates of the carribbean and i fell asleep cuz the 3D glasses on top of my regular glasses gave me a headache. 

what about IMAX 3D?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 6, 2016)

I have glasses, and I think they might be using different 3D ones from a couple years ago, because they fit p comfortably atop my normal ones


----------



## Atlas (Jan 6, 2016)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> *Spoiler*: __



All of these imax posters are fucking amazing.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 6, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I have glasses, and I think they might be using different 3D ones from a couple years ago, because they fit p comfortably atop my normal ones



hm that's nice to hear, thanks for the response


----------



## Mider T (Jan 6, 2016)

Poe is 32, Finn is 23, and Rey is 19.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 6, 2016)

Mider T said:


> Poe is 32, Finn is 23, and Rey is 19.



where did you hear this from?

omg rey and i are the same age 
so cute


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

Yeah, Mider where the fuck did you get this info from?


----------



## Mider T (Jan 6, 2016)

An accompanying pictionary.


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

@Mider T

Dumbass you forget how the internet works? Give us a link, or take a screenshot of this. Otherwise you're making shit up.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 6, 2016)

number 1 in US huh. i hope JJ doesnt get ALL the credit or be called "best director of all time"


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 6, 2016)

Haven't heard either scenario  even once yet.


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

Daisy Ridley told me to give all of you guys who called her a Mary Sue this gift:


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

This  perfectly points out how she isn't a Mary Sue:





> Is Rey actually a Mary Sue?
> 
> Spoilers follow.
> 
> ...



Geezus people


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 6, 2016)

there was a cute photo of daisy and a little girl dressed as her character, it was adorable.


----------



## Bender (Jan 6, 2016)

VERY adorable.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 6, 2016)

>Can fly a spaceship extremely well on her first try
>Conveniently knows the Millenium Falcon's internals as well as Han Solo
>Is able to control a person's will with the force while in a stressful situation, with absolutely no training on the force prior
>Same as above, but with Kylo's mind-poking, to the point of being able to read his mind
>And again, when she force-pulls the lightsaber out of the snow away from Kylo, despite him having enough power to stop a phaser blast and having actual training (yes, he was injured physically and mentally, but again Rey had absolutely no knowledge of the force other than what she though were myths and legends)
>All it took was forgetting the safety and missing a single shot and Rey was suddenly texas ranger-tier, hitting vitals on every target except Kylo without a single miss
>Defeats a trained swordsman in her first match. His injury made him weaker for sure, but she was able to twirl the lightsaber around and everything, she even rolled on the ground without burning herself with the blade 

Nope she's a Mary Sue.

Difference between her and Luke/Anakin is that Luke got his ass kicked and needed help all the time, and Anakin had that whole created by the Force chosen one bollocks.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 6, 2016)

Posting a seemingly irrelevant excerpt from Plinkett's _Titanic_ review in regards to why the movie is such a success and in regards to the people zealously defending the film's flaws:

[YOUTUBE]CMmZq0rTpA0[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 6, 2016)

The millennium Falcon stuff doesn't bother me, I assume she had intimate knowledge of it being a scavenger and looking around all the old ships.

The only part that bothered me was the jedi mind trick. All the other stuff you can reason


----------



## Stunna (Jan 6, 2016)

individually, you can reasonably explain almost everything Rey does

people take problem once you look at all of it holistically


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 6, 2016)

When you look at it 'holistically' then she is your typical protagonist.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 6, 2016)

if you say so

personally, I'm done debating about Rey for awhile

I _do _like her, but I've yet to have my mind changed about her being a Mary Sue/being OP


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 6, 2016)

That's what I initially thought, but thinking on it more the only thing I found baseless and sueish was the Jedi mind trick. 

To a lesser extent using the lightsaber, but she's capable with her staff, so she should be able to use a weapon that's pretty similar


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm hoping we get a new jedi order/group of padawans in this trilogy and I hope that at least some of the other Knights of Ren are force sensitive 'Sith'.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 6, 2016)

or all this can be answered simply by saying nanomachines medichlorians "the force"


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 6, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> >Can fly a spaceship extremely well on her first try
> >Conveniently knows the Millenium Falcon's internals as well as Han Solo
> *>Is able to control a person's will with the force while in a stressful situation, with absolutely no training on the force prior
> >Same as above, but with Kylo's mind-poking, to the point of being able to read his mind
> ...



def agree with the bolded. the not-bolded are defensible as others have shown. 

it was especially bothersome to see her somehow read kylo's mind. still a bit bothersome that kylo was even able to read her mind. at first i thought he was just sensing her feelings, like "you feel anxious" or something but he was able to see that island and mind read and i was just nope. but at least he's had sith training so you can excuse it with that.

as for anakin, even when he was young he was always working with that mechanic junkyard dude and it's believable that a kid will just pick up mechanics. that's how my dad learned and he's a great mechanic and driver. anakin being good at piloting at a young age is also explainable through that. that's probably the only thing he did for fun around there. him being force sensitive helps him but that's just like saying he's talented. it's still really believable that he spent a good amount of time honing his skills.

i think it's believable that she'd be good at flying. at first she really sucked but she quickly picked it up. i think she's just smart, and force sensitive obviously. but i think any intelligent person would be able to pick up how to move around if their life depended on it. quick thinking, quick learner. as for mechanics; she scavenges ship parts for a living. she probably just picked it up. and it's obvious she kind of loves piloting or something cuz she put on that pilot helmet and had that little stuffed pilot doll. it'd be sad if she were a terrible pilot, honestly. the millenium falcon is old for her, so she's probably seen better mechanics in some other advanced ships and learned about how you can just bypass shit in older models. i don't think that's mary sue, i think it's just the precociousness that comes with being younger and smart in comparison to an old guy who knew a lot during his time but just never caught up with new technologies. that's totally realistic to be honest.  i dont want to put out the gender card but if she were a man i do wonder if these specific aspects would be considered mary sue or just "smart alec little shit" like the little anakin
edit: well, the definition for mary sue kind of includes "precociousness" so eh, this probably just helps prove your point if anything lol. which i don't mind agreeing with haha. i still like rey, though.

but yeah all that force related mind shit is just bullshit mary sue hype tbh.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 6, 2016)

Rey is the new galactic hero


----------



## Mider T (Jan 6, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Mider T
> 
> Dumbass you forget how the internet works? Give us a link, or take a screenshot of this. Otherwise you're making shit up.



An autistic man-child calling me a dumbass is rich.  Especially one who never backs up his claims with sources and "debates" using every fallacy in the book. 

I was busy but here you go


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 6, 2016)

Kuromaku said:


> Posting a seemingly irrelevant excerpt from Plinkett's _Titanic_ review in regards to why the movie is such a success and in regards to the people zealously defending the film's flaws:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]CMmZq0rTpA0[/YOUTUBE]



Apparently, Mike (the guy who did the Plinkett reviews) doesn't apply these principles to The Force Awakens.  

[YOUTUBE]AvsiJppCdmk[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

@Gilgamesh

friend, Kylo was aiming to capture her. Not kill her, nor maim her. Therefore she has a handicap.

EDIT:

Also her power in the force was steadily growing little by little as more time passed. So it's justified.

Just look at the difference in the battle of her vs Kylo in comparison to Finn vs Kylo. He had less aggression against her than he did Finn.


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

@ Mider T

U mad bro? 

U should've done that shit in the first place rather than retardedly post shit without a source.

No one cares how busy you are if you forget how to post on a forum.


----------



## Mider T (Jan 7, 2016)

Bender said:


> @ Mider T
> 
> U mad bro?
> 
> ...



Your posts never change, no matter how much you age. lol stay salty.


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

Man is u butthurt sad fuck Mider-chan. 

ANYWAY...

Anyone else hoping SW TFA will win best picture in 21st Critics Choice award?


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 7, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Apparently, Mike (the guy who did the Plinkett reviews) doesn't apply these principles to The Force Awakens.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]AvsiJppCdmk[/YOUTUBE]



I dunno. I've seen that HitB, and while he and Jay liked the movie, they were willing to pick at certain things that didn't quite gel, although they both just seemed glad to finally get a SW film that wasn't crap and was at the very least decent (or even good as far as they were concerned). In fact, the video I posted includes a mention of SW, because while the movies are classics, they are ultimately fluff. Quality fluff, but fluff nonetheless (_Empire_ less so than the other films).

If anything though, Rich's response to the film seems closest to how I felt.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 7, 2016)

i remember when he said "they should stick close to the originals cuz i dont like things that are different"


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 7, 2016)

did you guys like kylo though? he just came across as some distressed villain the director wanted us to pitty or something

idk why people think he's a great villain


----------



## Zeta42 (Jan 7, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> is it still worth it seeing it in 3D if you wear glasses? last time i saw a 3D movie was the latest pirates of the carribbean and i fell asleep cuz the 3D glasses on top of my regular glasses gave me a headache.
> 
> what about IMAX 3D?





Stunna said:


> I have glasses, and I think they might be using different 3D ones from a couple years ago, because they fit p comfortably atop my normal ones


Glasses peasants


Contacts master race FTW!


----------



## Mider T (Jan 7, 2016)

The disgusting glare on glasses of light screen against a dark background. ..

Hideous


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 7, 2016)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 7, 2016)

Kylo is fine


----------



## Gabe (Jan 7, 2016)

The move says kylo was weakened after he killed his dad and it was the opposite of what he thought would happen. Wonder if they will use this in the next movie along with getting injured by chewie as why he was whooped by Rey


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 7, 2016)

kylo is incomplete, he's obviously conflicted and deep down he didn't like what he did.

as a villain he's not the ultimate bad guy of course.

his tantrums weren't as bad as anakins. mostly played for laughs. and anakin came from a time were jedi were supposed to be calm and collected as monks

we dont know how long he trained under luke and snoke, and the excuse of "well he had no one to train lightsaber combat with" is kind of moot since the troopers have sticks that resist lightsabers. simply put we need more answers.

[YOUTUBE]FuL4fKoQ0UE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## LouDAgreat (Jan 7, 2016)

Kuromaku said:


> The Rule of Two is supposed to be survival of the fittest.
> 
> A master takes on an apprentice and teaches them to the best of their abilities. When the apprentice has learned all that the master can teach, the apprentice challenges said master. If the master wins, good for the master, bad for the apprentice, but it's clear that the latter wasn't good enough to become a master in their own right. If the apprentice wins, it's great, because now the apprentice is a master in their own right, and has thus strengthened the Sith by surpassing the Sith Lord who came before them.
> 
> ...



I wonder...are Snoke and Kylo Ren Sith Lords? They don't have "Darth" names. That was a title bestowed upon the sith lords. Are they implementing a new Dark Side philosophy that's completely different from the Sith? 

On a separate note, I wonder if there will be some Coruscant scenes in the next films. It was so powerful and influential throughout the history of the galaxy, seems silly for it just to disappear because the New Republic wants rotating capitals. 

Logic behind roating capitals makes me JJ and Disney want to forget everything about the prequels even the good aspects of them, like Coruscant.


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> did you guys like kylo though? he just came across as some distressed villain the director wanted us to pitty or something
> 
> idk why people think he's a great villain



I think Kylo pretty cool villain. His destroying shit rather than straight up force choking subordinates is hilarious.


----------



## andrea (Jan 7, 2016)

kylo's a meh villain but i don't think his ultimate destiny is to become the next vader. him and rey are two branches of the skywalker family, representing the light and dark side, and they have to work together somehow to bring balance to the force. this is anakin/vader's legacy


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 7, 2016)

It would be cool to have a 'gray' force user for once. Someone who uses both sides of the force because things are not black and white n shit


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jan 7, 2016)

There will never truly be a balance in the force. It's just a constant cycle of the Jedi prospering then erradicated by a rising Sith Empire then a Sith Empire collapse by the return of the Jedi.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Jan 7, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> It would be cool to have a 'gray' force user for once. Someone who uses both sides of the force because things are not black and white n shit



I was thinking about this for a while but I don't want it be that they can utilize techniques from both sides but rather they have their very own unique technique.


----------



## andrea (Jan 7, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> There will never truly be a balance in the force. It's just a constant cycle of the Jedi prospering then erradicated by a rising Sith Empire then a Sith Empire collapse by the return of the Jedi.



that's literally what the chosen one prophecy is all about

that is, if they decide not to ignore the prequels completely


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 7, 2016)

I think Kylo's mask is starting to grow on me.  Starting to like it more and more.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 7, 2016)

Kylo Ren's short temper made sense to me not just because he was unfinished but also because he isn't a Sith, which all were calm and collected as the Jedi. He (and most likely the rest of the Knights of Ren) is more human so therefore flawed.



> *Here's A List Of The Box Office Records STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Has Broken So Far*
> 
> Star Wars: The Force Awakens is a box office smash, and while we've heard all about the various records it's broken since December 16th, seeing them collected like this (courtesy of IGN) is pretty amazing. Analysts believe that it's now on track to top Titanic as the second highest grossing movie of all-time, and while you might think that Disney are disappointed that it won't beat Avatar, it's doubtful that any 2016 release will beat these records, so The Force Awakens looks set to be the king for the foreseeable future. Star Wars Episode VIII perhaps? We'll have to wait and see!
> 
> ...


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 7, 2016)

The Mad King said:


> I was thinking about this for a while but I don't want it be that they can utilize techniques from both sides but rather they have their very own unique technique.



Or both of these things


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 7, 2016)

Sennin of Hardwork said:


> Kylo Ren's short temper made sense to me not just because he was unfinished but also because he isn't a Sith, which all were calm and collected as the Jedi. He (and most likely the rest of the Knights of Ren) is more human so therefore flawed.



 Which to me makes the sith stronger because they would seem to actually be the balance of the force...if they all just did not be evil and greedy. To me the sith are just Jedi that let power go to their head.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 7, 2016)




----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 7, 2016)

He may not be dead after all


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 7, 2016)

Yeah, this did feel personal.


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

@Superman

Honestly I like Kylo's mask more than Vader's. Vader's mask being like a Samurai's mask is too odd for me.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 7, 2016)

Wouldn't be surprised if he's written in the next movie because of his popularity.


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

BlazingInferno said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if he's written in the next movie because of his popularity.



Well considering how much the Stormtroopers are mocked in popular culture it would make sense.


Btw saw article on Samuel L Jackson's opinion on the The Force Awakens. He said the lightsaber fights need some work.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 7, 2016)

too bad none of that was in the movie to care about lol


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jan 7, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> >Can fly a spaceship extremely well on her first try



She bumps into a whole bunch of things and shows more trouble flying than any other pilot in the movies that I can think of. For fuck's sake, Luke's only experience was the equivalent of flying a space Cessna and he has absolutely _no_ problems flying a space F-16 later in that film. 



> >Conveniently knows the Millenium Falcon's internals as well as Han Solo



Does she? She points out some stuff, but then again they had time to be in that ship long enough for her to notice things. Along with that, Han hasn't been in on the thing in years and hasn't had time to notice the changes people have made like she had (Hell, she might have supplied the damn parts for it).



> >Is able to control a person's will with the force while in a stressful situation, with absolutely no training on the force prior



What training does Luke get in telekinesis at the start of _Empire_? None?

Here's the thing: in the Original trilogy (and hell, I'll say even in the Prequels), actually using the Force once you are basically introduced to it seems to be pretty easy. I mean, Anakin was basically unconsciously using it to be able to pod race at all.

The most difficult part is putting people in the right mindset: Luke was so difficult to train because he only found out about this sort of stuff almost as an adult. The Jedi temple presumably picks people up so that they don't have to undo that sort of adult cynicism, the "That's impossible". Unlike Luke, Rey is at least aware that that stuff _could_ be true. It's like if _you_ found out you had Force powers; you'd have a reasonable idea of what to try if you did, right? Same difference.

Kylo's attempted mindrape essentially opened up her third eye forcefully, while Luke only kind of had an inkling of what the Force really felt like given his brief training with Obi-Wan. Suddenly she can feel it, knows its there, and had heard stories about what you can do with it. Is it all that surprising that she ends up being a faster learner than Luke?



> >Same as above, but with Kylo's mind-poking, to the point of being able to read his mind



She's strong and Kylo left himself unguarded because he didn't expect any resistance? Do you bitch about Luke being able to stand toe-to-toe with Vader in _Return of the Jedi_ despite *no* saber training?



> >And again, when she force-pulls the lightsaber out of the snow away from Kylo, despite him having enough power to stop a phaser blast and having actual training (yes, he was injured physically and mentally, but again Rey had absolutely no knowledge of the force other than what she though were myths and legends)



Again, where does Luke get told he can pull lightsabers?



> >All it took was forgetting the safety and missing a single shot and Rey was suddenly texas ranger-tier, hitting vitals on every target except Kylo without a single miss



And Luke is any different? Luke is a fucking farmboy in a combat situation during the Death Star, but he nails Stormtroopers like no other. And unless wamprats flew T-16s as well, he shouldn't be able to dogfight like he does during the Battle of Yavin 4.



> >Defeats a trained swordsman in her first match. His injury made him weaker for sure, but she was able to twirl the lightsaber around and everything, she even rolled on the ground without burning herself with the blade



Again, Luke's saber training teacher? Saber fighting, much like using the Force, seems to really depend on how well you are centered. Luke well against Vader when he is calm and collected, and when he turns to a rage he does even better, because there's no pull away from it until he sees his father's hand stump. Kylo isn't centered; he's weak precisely because he is being pulled in two different directions. Rey isn't, and that's largely why she can beat the shit out of him at that point. This is simple damn stuff, people.



> Nope she's a Mary Sue.
> 
> Difference between her and Luke/Anakin is that Luke got his ass kicked and needed help all the time, and Anakin had that whole created by the Force chosen one bollocks.



Luke got his ass kicked all of once by Vader. Kylo _*immediately*_ owned her with Force paralysis or whatever you want to call it. While she's more adept at the Force than Luke quicker, that makes more sense for someone who has grown up with stories of the Force and Luke's exploits, compared to someone who was shield (I'd wager purposefully) from that sort of stuff. She's willing to believe quicker and more wholly than Luke, who puts limits on what it can do (so that Yoda can then bust past those limits).


----------



## Raidoton (Jan 7, 2016)

Guy Gardner said:


> She bumps into a whole bunch of things and shows more trouble flying than any other pilot in the movies that I can think of. For fuck's sake, Luke's only experience was the equivalent of flying a space Cessna and he has absolutely _no_ problems flying a space F-16 later in that film.


Finn: "How did you do that?"
Rey: "I have no idea!"


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 7, 2016)

BlazingInferno said:


> He may not be dead after all



Not after his showing he should not be.



~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah, this did feel personal.



 Definitely. They must be boys



Bender said:


> @Superman
> 
> Honestly I like Kylo's mask more than Vader's. Vader's mask being like a Samurai's mask is too odd for me.



 Yeah but it is so iconic, Vader's mask is. So for now Kylo's will remain behind it. I wish Kylo would have worn it more.l to put more ephesians on it.



Bender said:


> Well considering how much the Stormtroopers are mocked in popular culture it would make sense.
> 
> 
> Btw saw article on Samuel L Jackson's opinion on the The Force Awakens. He said the lightsaber fights need some work.



 Yeah he is kind of right. Light Saber fights were good, butter then in return and not to over the top like some in the prequels. I think Darth Maul vs Quoi-gon and Obi-Wan is the best...I think.


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

Jackson forgot to mention the lightsaber fights in the prequel were CGI assisted mostly. 

SW TFA trumps the original fights I'll say cuz of the lack of CGI assistance.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 7, 2016)

great post Guy





Kylo was weakened by his pull to the light, killing Han and then an injury from a weapon thats practically like a mini rocket launcher


----------



## Bender (Jan 7, 2016)

Kylo also got cut across the shoulder arm by Finn. That undoubtedly weakened his swing.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 7, 2016)

i like kylo's mask

kylo was way more intimidating before he took it off
vader wore one cuz he needed to. friend was almost burned to death and has all his limbs torn off and shit
kylo takes it off and reveals some pretty face that has probably never faced a harsh battle before. makes him appear like a little spoiled brat who just wears a mask to look dramatic like his grandpa. (except his grandpa actually had a reason to wear a mask).

i like his anger outbursts those were funny. i appreciate the subtle moments he had with rey, since it seems to be foreshadowing that he knows who she is. but the han storyline just kind of glossed over me for some reason. i guess because we never seen any history of him with his family before, it was harder to appreciate what the loss truly meant. maybe it was the acting? (on adam driver and harrison ford and carrie fisher's part) 
or maybe cuz it was obvious that he would remain on the dark side despite him being pulled in different directions so it made us jump to the conclusion and not care for all the attempts at drama the story would put in between then.


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 7, 2016)

Weiss said:


> great post Guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 No way was he also in a right kind of mind in those fights against Finn and Rey.


----------



## Mider T (Jan 7, 2016)

Two more days until it opens in China.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 7, 2016)

Mider T said:


> opens in China.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 7, 2016)

Yo, guys, if anyone is interested in playing a mafia game, check out this Star Wars: The Force Awakens game, hosted by Law and Marco. It's designed to be easy for newcomers to hop on and learn the ropes of the game, so don't hesitate to sign-up for a fun time:


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 7, 2016)

kylo's mask/costume is obviously heavily inspired by revans design


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 7, 2016)

The front yeah, from the back it looks almost identical to Vader though.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 7, 2016)

I used to like the idea of there being a unifying Force that was neither Dark nor Light until someone pointed a few things out to me.

1. SW is by its very nature a black-and-white morality story. There's good and there's bad. The good might have some negative qualities among individual characters, but at heart the good characters are good (see Han in ANH).

1a. Based on Lucas' (and although he's no longer running the show, I'll at least respect his outline for how the universe works given that Disney is in the end akin to a different author taking over creative control of a preexisting series) conception of morality and the Force, anyone who says otherwise is either lying or kidding themselves. All the good intentions in the world can't mask an act of the Dark Side (Anakin going bad because he wanted to save his wife, only to become more and more corrupted as his power and ambitions grew).

2. There is only the Force. To be of the Dark Side is to pervert it. It's basically an analogy for a normal person (by their very nature, they are not bad, and thus can be compared to the Force as is) versus a person who allows themselves to be corrupted and who tries to corrupt others (the Dark Side, which is all about corrupting what is natural into something horrible). It's also an analogy for spirituality, faith, and discipline given how Yoda describes the Dark Side in relation to orthodox usage of the Force in _Empire_.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 7, 2016)

But that's the thing, Lucas made it black and white and displayed it with terrible story-telling. It wasn't like Anakin went down a slippery slope, he just went full retard. Thank you Lucas for creating this great universe, but I definitely wouldn't mind people introducing their own ideas into it and that can happen now.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 8, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> But that's the thing, Lucas made it black and white and displayed it with terrible story-telling. It wasn't like Anakin went down a slippery slope, he just went full retard. Thank you Lucas for creating this great universe, but I definitely wouldn't mind people introducing their own ideas into it and that can happen now.



Just because Lucas failed to do well within the confines of the structure he had doesn't mean others can't succeed in his stead. There's nothing wrong with new ideas, but they should work with established lore instead of becoming the writer's personal fanfiction. People who do otherwise are missing the entire point of not only the Force, but the franchise itself. It's not meant to be a morally ambiguous tale. There is no "Light Side." There is the Force, and there's the assholes who are of the Dark Side. Those are the basic rules, and it's up to a skilled and talented creator to work within those confines to put their own spin on the fictional universe created by someone else, otherwise you may as well create your own franchise.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 8, 2016)

i think rey probably just has a lot of midichlorians and that's what makes her so strong

she probably has more than kylo

leia probably has a lot less than luke

midichlorian levels probably go from

luke > rey > finn

i think finn has them too

luke is less diluted

leia less than finn even though she's a daughter of anakin, whom had the highest midichlorian count

maybe in the twin process, luke got all of em (or at least most) so leia got stuck with few. so it wasn't an exact 50/50 split.


----------



## Legend (Jan 8, 2016)

I warned you


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

> i think rey probably just has a lot of midichlorians and that's what makes her so strong
> 
> she probably has more than kylo


I          agree


----------



## strongarm85 (Jan 8, 2016)

And the fan theories keep coming...

Snoke is Kylo Ren from the future.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_OvcfyYkNo[/youtube]

Also apparently Mads Mickleson's character is going to be named "Galen" but don't worry, he's not "Starkiller"

Word going around is that his character was working some of the final stages of completing the first Death Star, and where in he either discovered the Death Star's critical weakness, and the defected with the Rebellion with the Death Star plans. The rumor also suggests that he Felicity Jones is playing the daughter of his character.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

Link removed


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 8, 2016)

> i think rey probably just has a lot of midichlorians and that's what makes her so strong
> 
> she probably has more than kylo



And Luke and Anakin


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

Rey is the Force itself


----------



## Jouten (Jan 8, 2016)

Just leaving this here


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 8, 2016)

fuck everyone one of you midichlorian ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) for mentioning that bullshit.


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

Agrees with Raging.

Fuck that Midichlorian shit.

Glad we won't see much of it in J.J's SW entries.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 8, 2016)

this is J.J.'s only entry he'll ever do though XD the next two will have different directors for each of them.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Kuromaku said:


> Just because Lucas failed to do well within the confines of the structure he had doesn't mean others can't succeed in his stead. There's nothing wrong with new ideas, but they should work with established lore instead of becoming the writer's personal fanfiction. People who do otherwise are missing the entire point of not only the Force, but the franchise itself. It's not meant to be a morally ambiguous tale. There is no "Light Side." There is the Force, and there's the assholes who are of the Dark Side. Those are the basic rules, and it's up to a skilled and talented creator to work within those confines to put their own spin on the fictional universe created by someone else, otherwise you may as well create your own franchise.



Except there is a light side, its referenced all the time. And the EU doesn't exist anymore, they can create new things. Someone in the middle doesn't mean they're morally ambiguous, it just means they aren't up their own ass like most jedi.

And lets please not pretend that Star Wars hasn't been much more than good vs evil blockbusters for the most part, they aren't philosophical masterpieces. I want them to add some depth


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

@blood

you gotta be shitting me.

Goddammmit!


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

Trevorrow episode 9 


Jurassic Galaxy far far away


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 8, 2016)

If it is Darth Plagueis...do you think he purposely stunts the growth of Kylo...just in case he would pull a Sidious on him?


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

@Superman

I think cuz Palpatine story told through Darth Plagueis that I don't give much of a shit about him. That and he only ever referred to as Emperor and Palpatine.


----------



## LordPerucho (Jan 8, 2016)

Weiss said:


> great post Guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He also feared the untapped potential of Rey.

But Chewie injured him was vital for Rey to curbstomp him after she used the force in combat for the first time.

Wondering who is gonna die in the next movie? I have the feeling it will be Chewie .


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 8, 2016)

> *J.J. Abrams Responds To Claims That STAR WARS: TFA Was A "Rip-Off" Of A NEW HOPE*
> 
> While Star Wars: The Force Awakens initially received unanimous acclaim, the usual suspects are now taking great pride in trying (and mostly failing) to tear the movie apart. It happens with every blockbuster, but by far one of the most common - and laziest - complaints about this release is that it's basically just A New Hope. However, J.J. Abrams was more than prepared for both that and the predictable backlash, something he made clear in a recent interview with The Hollywood Reporter. _"I knew that, whatever we did, there would be a group of people — and I was just hoping and praying that it would be smaller than not — that would take issue with any number of things. But I knew we weren't making the movie for any other reason than we believed that it could be something meaningful and special and entertaining and worthy of people's time."_
> 
> ...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

JJ did good

he has nothing to explain or prove to the haters


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 8, 2016)

alright then, his heart was in the right place at least. i'd pat him on the shoulder if i could. i do like his honesty


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

Whoever wrote that is such a lame. 

Criticizing TFA for being derivative is lazy? And I like how it paints people who criticize the movie as doing so purely out of pride. 

J.J.'s explanation doesn't cut it.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

It is lazy though


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

Why is it lazy? Because it's a common criticism? That doesn't stop it from being a valid one.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Whoever wrote that is such a lame.
> 
> Criticizing TFA for being derivative is lazy? And I like how it paints people who criticize the movie as doing so purely out of pride.
> 
> J.J.'s explanation doesn't cut it.



I agree


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

I sympathize with Abrams. I understand why he might have taken as few risks as he did. The Star Wars series has suffered three maligned movies in a row, and imitating a beloved entry was the most assured way to regain the trust of most audiences.

But just because it was a smart business move, and just because I understand it, doesn't make it a good decision from a filmmaking perspective.


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

but it was a good decision

because the majority loves it


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I sympathize with Abrams. I understand why he might have taken as few risks as he did. The Star Wars series has suffered three maligned movies in a row, and imitating a beloved entry was the most assured way to regain the trust of most audiences.
> 
> But just because it was a smart business move, and just because I understand it, doesn't make it a good decision from a filmmaking perspective.



this

i would have much appreciated a risk than playing it safe 

it couldn't have possibly been any worse than the prequels, so i think he should have given it a shot     

but eh, it still earned a bunch of money so who cares right


----------



## The World (Jan 8, 2016)

he didn't want to risk his life if he fucked it up

so of course he played it safe


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 8, 2016)

hopefully now that the trusts back they can now branch off and make their own stories


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> but it was a good decision
> 
> because the majority loves it


so the majority decides quality now?

hint: the answer is no


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 8, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> it couldn't have possibly been any worse than the prequels



Nah, it could've


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I sympathize with Abrams. I understand why he might have taken as few risks as he did. The Star Wars series has suffered three maligned movies in a row, and imitating a beloved entry was the most assured way to regain the trust of most audiences.
> 
> But just because it was a smart business move, and just because I understand it, doesn't make it a good decision from a filmmaking perspective.



I see what you're saying

and I can see how that might make it less enjoyable to watch

but that doesn't make it any worse of a film for borrowing elements of an earlier installment. So from a film making perspective it doesn't matter, its just how it affects how you like it.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

it could have been as bad or worse then the prequels


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> so the majority decides quality now?
> 
> hint: the answer is no



Yes it does. The OT is heralded as great even though really only one of them are great objectively. If the majority enjoy a movie, then its a good movie, you don't have to like it. But because you don't like it that doesn't mean it isn't quality, that just makes you a snob


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Why is it lazy? Because it's a common criticism? That doesn't stop it from being a valid one.



Because it's not in any way an adequate criticism of the movie itself 

"TFA shares a similar story structure to ANH!!!!111"

yes, and?

This is a very superficial and lazy complaint that barely scratches the surface of anything that might actually be called criticism 

If this is your only complaint you might as well concede now that it's a great movie


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> I see what you're saying
> 
> and I can see how that might make it less enjoyable to watch
> 
> but that doesn't make it any worse of a film for borrowing elements of an earlier installment. So from a film making perspective it doesn't matter, its just how it affects how you like it.


does in my books; at least in this case

there's only so much you can borrow (and so many ways) before it starts to hurt the picture



Weiss said:


> it could have been as bad or worse then the prequels


possible, yes

probable, no


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

> only one of them are great objectively


I consider ANH objectively great


RotJ is more dividing because of the fookin ewoks


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 8, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Superman
> 
> I think cuz Palpatine story told through Darth Plagueis that I don't give much of a shit about him. That and he only ever referred to as Emperor and Palpatine.



 I am just saying if Snoke is Plagueis,  do you think this time he will have. fail safe in place just in case Kylo turns on him/stab him in the back?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

"objectively"
"objectively"
"objectively"


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Weiss said:


> I consider ANH objectively great
> 
> 
> RotJ is more dividing because of the fookin ewoks



I think ANH is good, Empire is on a higher plane imo


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

@Super Mike 

Some piece if advice: do not go more than three arguments of posts with Stunna on majority reviews deciding quality. I did in the NF cafe SW TFA and got such a motherfucking headache. The dude stubbornly believes that majority critics reviews is similar to popularity.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> "objectively"
> "objectively"
> "objectively"



objectively meaning i'm emulating some prissy guy stroking his mustache unimpressed by everything.

mmm Empire good. Star Wars? not good hmmmm


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Super Mike
> 
> Some piece if advice: do not go more than three arguments of posts with Stunna on majority reviews deciding quality. I did in the NF cafe SW TFA and got such a motherfucking headache. The dude stubbornly believes that majority critics reviews is similar to popularity.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 8, 2016)

Yes, Empire is still the best Star Wars film.


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

ANH and TESB are awesome and perhaps most memorable pieces in film history. ROTJ.... Fuck you Lucas. Fuck you right in the face.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Yes it does. The OT is heralded as great even though really only one of them are great objectively. If the majority enjoy a movie, then its a good movie, you don't have to like it. But because you don't like it that doesn't mean it isn't quality, that just makes you a snob


omg

where is this mindset that "just because x number of people think a movie is good that makes it so" coming from?

who says that Star Wars _objectively_ only has one great movie?

you do know that there's no law saying that we have to agree with the majority _opinion,_ right? 



Nighty said:


> Because it's not in any way an adequate criticism of the movie itself
> 
> "TFA shares a similar story structure to ANH!!!!111"
> 
> yes, and?


how is that not an adequate criticism

it's a condemnation of the writer's capability or willingness to create their own ideas. if you're just lifting ideas from other movies, with little creative execution, then the movie you're lifting ideas for is going to lack its own personality. it's _cliched._ since when did that stop being a fair critique?



> If this is your only complaint you might as well concede now that it's a great movie


it isn't my only complaint, and it isn't a great movie

get better standards


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

I really liked Jedi until I recently watched it. I didn't realize how much Ewoks were in the movie


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 8, 2016)

ewoks are kawaii


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> I think ANH is good, Empire is on a higher plane imo


did you just try to claim that TESB is objectively better, and then follow that by saying "in my opinion"?

really?


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> so the majority decides quality now?
> 
> hint: the answer is no



uh yes

lol

if the overwhelming majority of critics that get payed to review films and the overwhelming majority of cinema goers that don't get payed to review films all agree that the movie is amazing

guess what? the movie is amazing


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

Super Mike said:
			
		

> If the majority enjoy a movie, then its a good movie



hahahahahahaha


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> omg
> 
> where is this mindset that "just because x number of people think a movie is good that makes it so" coming from?
> 
> ...



blah blah blah people are stupid is basically what you're trying to say. If the majority of people like it, ask yourself why do they like it? Just because _you_ don't like a movie doesn't make it bad. It just means _you_ don't like it. You can argue about quality, and even though its not your only complaint, cries of "its too similar to ANH" is kinda tired. I share that complaint, I wish it was fresher, but that doesn't make it a bad movie. Its not even the movie's biggest flaw imo.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> uh yes
> 
> lol
> 
> ...




Great logic.


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> hahahahahahaha



I didn't say enjoy, I said they agree it's good

which is pretty much how subjective opinions work, the majority decides

there is no objective measure to determine what makes a film good, it's just opinions


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> I didn't say enjoy, I said they agree it's good
> 
> which is pretty much how subjective opinions work, the majority decides
> 
> there is no objective measure to determine what makes a film good, it's just opinions



i wasn't quoting you

your popularity = quality post is also garbage doe


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

oh k

still, it's not a matter of popularity tho

because i'm only giving weight to the opinion of people that have watched the movie, not weight to the amount of people that have watched it


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> uh yes
> 
> lol
> 
> ...





Super Mike said:


> blah blah blah people are stupid is basically what you're trying to say. If the majority of people like it, ask yourself why do they like it? Just because _you_ don't like a movie doesn't make it bad. It just means _you_ don't like it. You can argue about quality, and even though its not your only complaint, cries of "its too similar to ANH" is kinda tired. I share that complaint, I wish it was fresher, but that doesn't make it a bad movie. Its not even the movie's biggest flaw imo.


lololol

wow

you're serious. aren't you?

whelp, okay

lol


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> does in my books; at least in this case
> 
> there's only so much you can borrow (and so many ways) before it starts to hurt the picture



tell me about how it hurts the picture then


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 8, 2016)

but jedi had the luke and vader conflict and lando, and the quotable emperor


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 8, 2016)

idk just cuz it sold well doesn't mean the majority loved it and thought it was great

sure it was enjoyable but i mean it's fucking star wars, people were going to see this no matter what

it's like jurassic world but greater


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> oh k
> 
> still, it's not a matter of popularity tho
> 
> because i'm only giving weight to the opinion of people that have watched the movie, not weight to the amount of people that have watched it





it's still a matter of popularity
look up what popularity means
many people having a positive opinion of it is popularity


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 8, 2016)

ITT: sheep


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

like this is precisely why its lazy critique

people just drop it in and go yep done here as if "it shares thematic/narrative elements with ANH" is in and of itself a) criticism and b) a flaw

It's like people who say Transformers is a bad movie but can't articulate why that is, they just know that it is because other, smarter people said so and they can kind of grasp the problematic features.


----------



## Violent by Design (Jan 8, 2016)

Nighty said:


> like this is precisely why its lazy critique
> 
> people just drop it in and go yep done here as if "*it shares thematic/narrative elements with ANH*" is in and of itself a) criticism and b) a flaw
> 
> It's like people who say Transformers is a bad movie but can't articulate why that is, they just know that it is because other, smarter people said so and they can kind of grasp the problematic features.



I don't understand the connect between your Transformers analogy and the ANH one.

Also, the critique in itself (in regards to the bold) can be lack of originality, which to some people certainly matters when watching a film.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

just because "it's unoriginal" is the most common excuse, and may be one favored by lazy people, doesn't make it an invalid one


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

Nighty said:


> like this is precisely why its lazy critique
> 
> people just drop it in and go yep done here as if "it shares thematic/narrative elements with ANH" is in and of itself a) criticism and b) a flaw
> 
> It's like people who say Transformers is a bad movie but can't articulate why that is, they just know that it is because other, smarter people said so and they can kind of grasp the problematic features.





im pretty sure u can intuit why it's a problem that it borrows a plot structure beat-for-beat wholesale from another very popular movie in the same series

it's because it's hard to maintain interest in what's happening if you know every single thing that's going to happen next, and it's hard for anything to be tense if u know the outcome

at least some unpredictability is usually necessary to enjoy fiction even if it 
is often ultimately predictable

in blockbusters this unpredictability usually comes from variations in the plot prior to the eventual victory-of-the-good ending, but tfa has almost no variations from a movie that everyone knows 

that means it closes off its only real avenue for surprising anyone with almost anything


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> lololol
> 
> wow
> 
> ...



why don't you explain what makes a movie good

and then explain why TFA is not by this measure you established



Lucaniel said:


> it's still a matter of popularity
> look up what popularity means
> many people having a positive opinion of it is popularity



a lot of people watching it is popularity, because something can be decent (or bad) and popular

that's why I make a distinction between enjoying and praising


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> a lot of people watching it is popularity, because something can be decent (or bad) and popular
> 
> that's why I make a distinction between enjoying and praising



a lot of people liking it is also popularity
literally the definition of popularity in fact


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> im pretty sure u can intuit why it's a problem that it borrows a plot structure beat-for-beat wholesale from another very popular movie in the same series
> 
> it's because it's hard to maintain interest in what's happening if you know every single thing that's going to happen next, and it's hard for anything to be tense if u know the outcome
> 
> ...



but it *does *have precisely those variations in the midpoint of the plot 

Finn wants to leave the plot entirely

Rey is kidnapped

the audience shares a view point with Kylo which is obviously different to anything ANH does with vader

Rey actually fights the bad guy

etc.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> why don't you explain what makes a movie good
> 
> and then explain why TFA is not by this measure you established


nah, I'm good fam

btw I think TFA is alright

I think the claim that it's "great" is a real laugh tho


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

Goddammit Stunna you're doing it again.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 8, 2016)

A commonly hated item can be popular as well.

That's why the saying "there's no such thing as bad publicity" exist.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 8, 2016)

it's unoriginal, it borrows too much from it's previous movies, so it takes you out of the experience when you're watching because you end up thinking "oh ive seen this before, i know where they're headed, they're just going to copy and paste ANH, well that's a shame i was expecting something new. yes i know that death star will be destroyed. why so dramatic?" it just doesn't let you immerse into it as much as one would with something not copypasted cuz you'll actually be involved in the story instead of going through that thought process of "oh ive seen this before, i know where they're headed..ect." 

does that sound more valid? cuz honestly if you can't understand why being unoriginal would be a critique without us having to explain exactly why...  i mean it's really not that difficult to understand why it's a valid critique. if you're just demanding people to write tl;dr's every time they say it copies ANH to explain why it's bad,.. you really don't need to write a tl;dr for something so self explanatory. if you can't see why it'd be bad and demand some tl;dr then idk i dont think more words would help you understand something that already flew over your head the first time


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

Nighty said:


> but it *does *have precisely those variations in the midpoint of the plot
> 
> Finn wants to leave the plot entirely
> 
> ...



might as well cut out what finn wants since he doesn't get it and he stays on course 

but yeah rey being kidnapped and the perspective shift to kylo and the rey-kylo duel are all changes

i think that which the exception of rey's kidnap, they're minor changes tho tbh


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> nah, I'm good fam
> 
> btw I think TFA is alright
> 
> I think the claim that it's "great" is a real laugh tho





"b-but it's not lazy"

sure buddy


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

my dude, you're ignorant enough to believe that popularity = quality

why would I waste my time debating film with you any further

but it's all good, homie


----------



## Bender (Jan 8, 2016)

Lol lol lol 

Dat denial.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> might as well cut out what finn wants since he doesn't get it and he stays on course
> 
> but yeah rey being kidnapped and the perspective shift to kylo and the rey-kylo duel are all changes
> 
> i think that which the exception of rey's kidnap, they're minor changes tho tbh



what about the shifting of the death star rescue?

what about the fact that the movie doesn't spend much time on the actual destruction of the death star because it's busy with the Rey/Finn/Kylo character drama?

What about the fact that Finn is seriously injured and seemingly in some kind of coma at the end of the movie while Rey rushes off to learn from luke?


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> lololol
> 
> wow
> 
> ...



totes how you have a discussion 

wat a pussy


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> my dude, you're ignorant enough to believe that popularity = quality
> 
> why would I waste my time debating film with you any further
> 
> but it's all good, homie



>still thinking it's about popularity



dat deflection


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

I deem you no longer worth my time to have a discussion with on the subject


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I deem you no longer worth my time to have a discussion with on the subject



you've proven you have nothing worthwhile to say on the subject


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 8, 2016)

Bender said:


> @blood
> 
> you gotta be shitting me.
> 
> Goddammmit!



JJ is a awful director, at least the next two have a chance to be half decent.

And pretty sad that people still don't the whole concept of Midichlorians at this point. If you'd watch the last few episodes of TCW, it explains Midichlorians properly.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 8, 2016)

i watched a youtube video and you can hear obi wan saying "Rey!" and then obi wan saying "these are your first steps"

people assuming it might be cuz she's related to obi wan but

what if it's just obi wan's force ghost looking after her cuz luke was gone

would a grandfather really say "these are your first steps" to a baby? i mean he could but why would you talk to a baby like that. maybe he just means first steps as in first steps into the force. the force awakens when she touches it, snoke points it out too. so these are just her first steps in the force, it would make sense for a force ghost who traverses through the force to somehow be able to communicate with her
she was obviously afraid as well so that line may have been used to calm her

like a force ghost but to make it creepy it's just the force ghost whisper


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 8, 2016)

And since you guys are talking popularity=quality you know what other Star Wars movie grossed over $1 billion? The Phantom Menace. In fact, it's the only one that did before TFA. That means it must be the best one, right?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> . In fact, it's the only one that did before TFA.





> Highest-grossing films adjusted for inflation
> 
> Rank 	Title 	Worldwide gross
> 1 	Gone with the Wind 	$3,440,000,000 	1939
> ...


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

Nighty said:


> what about the shifting of the death star rescue?
> 
> what about the fact that the movie doesn't spend much time on the actual destruction of the death star because it's busy with the Rey/Finn/Kylo character drama?
> 
> What about the fact that Finn is seriously injured and seemingly in some kind of coma at the end of the movie while Rey rushes off to learn from luke?



these are minor changes to a plot which largely follows a new hope beat for beat and the fact that you have to say things like "it has the destruction of the death star, but it takes a different focus to that same event" should make it obvious to you that the sameness is crushing

finn is han in carbonite, which is at least a different movie, while rey -> luke is luke -> yoda, you know this

i didn't much mind the sameness
but i can see why someone would


----------



## Stunna (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> if there is a better way to determine whether a movie is good or bad, then pls, go ahead and show me


your personal opinion


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

ANH with dat GOAT gross


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> you seem to be refusing to get that the dictionary definition of being popular is being liked by a large number of people and so you are literally making a popularity = quality argument
> 
> you can try to change the definition of popularity all you want, but that is what you're doing. you saying "all these people agree with me, so i'm right"



how do u read my post and still miss my point 

i am not changing the definition of popularity

7 billion people in the world watch a movie

3.5 billion think it's amazing, 3.5 billion think it sucks

is the movie popular? yes. is the movie liked by a shitload of people? yes, literally half of humanity.

but is the movie good under the criteria that i am establishing? NO! because only 50% of the population liked it

i am not appealing solely to large numbers, i am appealing to the ratio of people that liked it vs those that did not

it's not an appeal to popularity


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 8, 2016)

Who said anything about popularity? I said if the majority think its good, not if the majority of people watched it. Avatar made a billy off hype alone


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> how do u read my post and still miss my point
> 
> i am not changing the definition of popularity
> 
> ...


ur argument is based on the idea that if the majority of people like something then that something is good, and that its goodness increases with the majority

that is a numbers-based argument 

it is therefore an appeal to popularity 

the subtle difference ur tryna argue is a huge difference is actually just a subtle one that doesnt change the inherently fallacious nature of ur argument


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> these are minor changes to a plot which largely follows a new hope beat for beat and the fact that you have to say things like "it has the destruction of the death star, but it takes a different focus to that same event" should make it obvious to you that the sameness is crushing
> 
> finn is han in carbonite, which is at least a different movie, while rey -> luke is luke -> yoda, you know this
> 
> ...


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

Nighty said:


>



i adblocked it

>using mlpshrug when kanyeshrug exists

consider suicide


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 8, 2016)

Luc gotta bitch about antything


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> ur argument is based on the idea that if the majority of people like something then that something is good
> 
> that is a numbers-based argument
> 
> ...



why exactly is it fallacious when we are referring solely to opinions, not objective truths or facts?

the fallacy would be if you appealed to popularity while disregarding the opinion of those that do not like it

i don't understand what the fallacy would be in this situation


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 8, 2016)




----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> why exactly is it fallacious when we are referring solely to opinions, not objective truths or facts?
> 
> the fallacy would be if you appealed to popularity while disregarding the opinion of those that do not like it
> 
> i don't understand what the fallacy would be in this situation



why would opinions become more valid in aggregation?

how does the subjective become objective by there being more of it?

the implicit logic behind that is garbage


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> why would opinions become more valid in aggregation?
> 
> how does the subjective become objective by there being more of it?
> 
> the implicit logic behind that is garbage



of course opinions don't become objective because they don't stop being opinions

but if you're judging something that is subjective by nature, then logically it follows that the only thing that matters are opinions. and so the higher the ratio of good:bad opinions, the better

how else would you go about establishing whether a movie is quality or not? because clearly just 1 person's opinion is not enough


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 8, 2016)

sworder said:


> of course opinions don't become objective because they don't stop being opinions
> 
> *but if you're judging something that is subjective by nature, then logically it follows that the only thing that matters are opinions. and so the higher the ratio of good:bad opinions, the better*
> 
> how else would you go about establishing whether a movie is quality or not? because clearly just 1 person's opinion is not enough


no, but this is wrong...

ur not getting it

i dont think u ever will at this point, nvm


----------



## Gunners (Jan 8, 2016)

It depends on how you look at things. If a good film is an enjoyable film, you can actually measure its quality by the percentage of people who find the film enjoyable.


----------



## sworder (Jan 8, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> no, but this is wrong...
> 
> ur not getting it
> 
> i dont think u ever will at this point, nvm



because no one presents a proper explanation of what's right 



Gunners said:


> It depends on how you look at things. If a good film is an enjoyable film, you can actually measure its quality by the percentage of people who find the film enjoyable.



yah, that's what i'm saying


----------



## reiatsuflow (Jan 8, 2016)

James cameron said the final word on this, as far as I'm concerned. Regarding what he thought about the huge success of avatar, he said he likes to think of financial success as representing successful communication. The more money a movie makes, the more successfully it communicated itself to audiences. That might mean its marketing reached people more. That might mean what it communicated was easier than some other movie, like catching the attentions of teenagers with a popular movie star, explosions, sex appeal and the like as opposed to trying to communicate some Paul Thomas Anderson 1760 period piece about professional hat makers. But I think that's the only objective measure this kind of success makes. Successful communication between the movie / studio / marketers and the audience.

For whatever that's worth.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 8, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Except there is a light side, its referenced all the time. And the EU doesn't exist anymore, they can create new things. Someone in the middle doesn't mean they're morally ambiguous, it just means they aren't up their own ass like most jedi.
> 
> And lets please not pretend that Star Wars hasn't been much more than good vs evil blockbusters for the most part, they aren't philosophical masterpieces. I want them to add some depth



The Mortis (I think that's the name) did, but movie-wise? There was always the Jedi way (using the Force as it should be) and the asshole way (Dark Side). Someone in the middle is either good or bad, it's basic SW morality.

Like I said outright, which somehow wasn't communicated to you properly, the movies *are* good vs evil blockbusters that reflect old-school myths. I never pretended anything. The analogy for spirituality was always there, just communicated in an easily digestible, inoffensive manner so that Christians and Buddhists and Taoists alike could buy tickets and line Lucas' (and now Disney's) wallet.

What depth do you want to add exactly that still follows the rules as originally laid out? I'm serious in my curiosity. Because there's a difference between taking what's outlined and adding depth to it, and then there's missing the point of the outline and introducing shit that doesn't need to be there (hello midichlorians).


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 8, 2016)

i just watched the mortis arc on TCW

i doubt it would ever be seen on one of the movies... cuz as you say, the movies tend to be light vs dark blockbusters and adding mortis would probably just be too different than what we've come to expect.

cuz the son isn't exactly evil is he? the father didn't just kill him and say "here's peace"

i just wish they would explain that more. in the movies (and from TCW up to these episodes, because im still watching for the first time so i dunno if it answers this later on), the sith are always seen as evil. but don't you need balance between the light and the dark? they should show why all light would be bad. does the sith represent the dark side? because if so isn't it necessary to maintain balance? i heard somebody else say that the sith are a perversion of the force, and thus outside of this question of light and dark. that would make more sense, but then i would like for the movies or something to show that more. to show that the dark is necessary to maintain balance but that the sith is just not the dark side, it is a perversion and evil and that's why it is always being targeted for extermination, not simply because it is dark. because that would lead to unbalance. 

that mortist arc confused the heck out of me lol help


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

Honestly I'm kinda sad the Mortis arc is non-canon now. It was pretty cool.


On side note: Anyone think Kylo Ren will become as much of a child killer as his grandfather?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 9, 2016)

I doubt there will be any child murder in this trilogy.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> Honestly I'm kinda sad the Mortis arc is non-canon now. It was pretty cool.
> 
> 
> On side note: Anyone think Kylo Ren will become as much of a child killer as his grandfather?



why is it uncanon now? it's part of the clone wars 

lol he'd probably be a youngling killer

in front of leia, i can see it happening, her disgust, most favorable it is


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

Lol @ discrepancy in Anakin Logic in ROTS "FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL!" 

20 minutes ago Anakin kills younglings in cold blood


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 9, 2016)

that's my favorite line                              lol


----------



## Rukia (Jan 9, 2016)

That line makes no sense.  If Anakin really felt that way.  Why did he live as a Jedi for over a decade?


----------



## Jeff (Jan 9, 2016)

Alright saw this movie twice.

Completely in love with the athletic Daisy Ridley.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 9, 2016)

Rukia said:


> That line makes no sense.  If Anakin really felt that way.  Why did he live as a Jedi for over a decade?



who cares, it's an awesome hilarious line 

(uhhh he got manipulated by emperor palpatine and the dark side consumed him. seriously?)


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 9, 2016)

Jeff said:


> Alright saw this movie twice.
> 
> Completely in love with the athletic Daisy Ridley.



as akin to a non athletic daisy ridley? or are you just saying that daisy ridley happens to always be athletic?


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 9, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I doubt there will be any child murder in this trilogy.



Given how annoying many child actors are and how cathartic it was to see Anakin slaughter all those kids, why the hell not? Maybe even poke fun at the infamous line.

Example:
"They killed all the younglings!"
"Why are you saying that? Just say 'children.' They're already dead anyhow."
_Camera pans over a bunch of dead kids, because fuck children._


----------



## kenshinhimura (Jan 9, 2016)

Not a big star wars fan but that dom collection  is just crazy.


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

@Jeff

Oi oi oi

Back off that my baby girl.


----------



## Jessica (Jan 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Jeff
> 
> Oi oi oi
> 
> Back off that my baby girl.



FINNNNNN


----------



## Raidoton (Jan 9, 2016)

I bet they gave Finn the Lightsaber because they couldn't figure out how else to make him interesting


----------



## Stunna (Jan 9, 2016)

But Finn is more interesting than either Rey or Poe.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 9, 2016)

BB-8 > Kylo Ren > rest


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 9, 2016)

and Rey has that mystery parentage and shit going for her still


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

I *DEMAND* that BB-8 be given a short movie due to how unbelievably cute and cooler he is than R2-D2.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 9, 2016)

Bender turning on R2 after 1 movie like that, smh



R2 is still besto, but BB-8 is getting there fast


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 9, 2016)

Finn is Jar-Jar done right.

1. Played by a minority actor? Check.
2. Source of comic relief? Check.
3. Heroic despite moments of cowardice? Check.
4. Rises above disgrace to play a vital, but not quite deciding role in winning the day? Double check.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 9, 2016)

No, _You're_ Jar-Jar done right.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 9, 2016)

tfw Han Solo is too white to be Jar Jar done right.


----------



## Mickey Mouse (Jan 9, 2016)

Bender turning heel on R2-D2.....


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

@Superman

It just my opinion.

Remember scene with BB-8 and Finn? Depending on interpretation he may be first character to get away with flipping the bird on screen.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 9, 2016)

BB-8 was giving a "thumbs up".


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

@Blazinginferno

Lol lol lol

Ya never know man, BB kept looking back and forth between Rey and Finn. 

That's what I like about that scene.


Honestly, y'all I ain't rewatch the old Star Wars films as much as I want to rewatch the force awakens. So BB-8 has become my favorite droid...


----------



## Zeta42 (Jan 9, 2016)

Kuromaku said:


> Finn is Jar-Jar done right.
> 
> 1. Played by a minority actor? Check.
> 2. Source of comic relief? Check.
> ...


5. Traitor: check
6. Gets to hold a lightsaber: check

Now all he needs is to become Chancellor, and he'll surpass Jar Jar in every way.


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 9, 2016)

i get it! its cuz benders a robot


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

Of all the Star Wars droids the one droid that Bender would get along with the most is R2-D2 because of how much he trolls C3-PO. Hmm, when I think that way actually am unsure if I really do like BB-8 more than R2-D2. I give BB-8 pointers for how cute he is when Rey is asked to sell the droid to that part-dealer on Jakku.


----------



## Deer Lord (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm pretty sure BB-8 was flipping finn off, not giving thumbs up.
And for me BB8>R2

R2 was 50% plot device, 50% asshole in the movies.


----------



## Gabe (Jan 9, 2016)

Just got out of seeing t again and it was still back no seats empty this will make much more money. I'll probably go and see it again when it hits the two dollar theater where I live at in a few months.

Funny how Poe was the one who awakened Finn or got him from breaking his programming he was the one who killed his friend that left the blood print on Finns helmet.cant believe I did not noticed this the last couple times I saw it. I like how everyone ren walks or drops something there is thump shows he is forceful with everything. After seeing it again i wish one thing was different that ren did not take off his mask when talks ng to Rey. It should have been done when him and Han met. More impact imo.


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

Goddamn the AMC near my place for no longer having tickets on Fandango for IMAX 3D. When I got there I was pissed that they had a showing for it. 

@Deer Lord

As pointed out here:

[YOUTUBE]4l5eZp8Ae9c[/YOUTUBE]

R2-D2 shitload more helpful in prequels than in original which is hilarious.


----------



## Bender (Jan 9, 2016)

Btw made poll on my twitter on fav character of main trio in TFA:

New scan showing off stage destruction


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 9, 2016)

Artoo helped save Leia in the original


----------



## Wan (Jan 9, 2016)

Thought I'd give my two cents on this discussion surrounding Rey being a Mary Sue. People have seemed quick to accuse her of being a Mary Sue, that she's overpowered, etc. 


*Spoiler*: _hope you like walls of text_ 



First, let's define what a “Mary Sue” is. The phrase comes from a story written by Paula Smith in 1973 called “A Trekkie's Tale” which satirized Star Trek fan fiction of the day (Yes, fan fiction was a thing even as far back as the 70s!). It starred Lieutenant Mary Sue, a teenage officer who parodied such characters in Star Trek fan fiction. I do wonder just how many people who use the term have bothered to look up its actual origin and meaning. It's also ironic how Star Trek The Next Generation would go on to have a pretty similar character with Wesley Crusher. Anyways, the term has since come to be associated with author self-inserts, wish fulfillment, and saving the day through unrealistic abilities. They are idealized, and other characters agree with them and praise them in ways those characters really shouldn't, undermining character consistency.

That's an oversimplification of it, because many beloved characters in fiction find their appeal in wish fulfillment. A fundamental aspect of superhero stories – Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, etc – is wish fulfillment. There is a wish fulfillment aspect to Captain Kirk, with his adventures exploring the galaxy and saving the Earth and the Federation on several occasions. There's a wish fulfillment aspect to Luke Skywalker, with his Force abilities, that dang cool lightsaber, and heroically piloting an X-Wing fighter. In general with action/adventure stories, there's some aspect of the protagonists that we the readers/viewers _wish_ we could have. With well-written characters though, there's some flaw or hardship that the characters have to deal with that makes them feel real, that makes us not _completely _wish to be them. No one wants to be orphaned and left with psychological damage like Batman, or to lose your entire planet and culture like Superman. No one wants to deal with the people who raised you getting incinerated like Luke's uncle and aunt. Where wish-fulfillment becomes Mary Sue-ish, then, is when that's _all _there is to a character. No downside to their existence, they just do cool things and have nothing else interesting about them.

So, does that apply to Rey? There's no doubting there's a wish-fulfillment aspect to her character. Who wouldn't want to awaken to the Force and discover powers like she did? But let's look at her whole life. She was abandoned by her family on Jakku as a little girl, and basically grew up an orphan. She lives as a scavenger, working in the heat of that desert planet just to scrape by and get something to eat. She lives in an old wrecked AT-AT, which, while pretty distinct, isn't exactly going to show up on an episode of “Cribs”. That abandonment has had psychological effects on her – she wants to stay on Jakku until her family comes back, to the detriment of her own future. It's left her feeling empty, unwanted. All told, while Rey's abilities are cool, the life she's lived up to this point is definitely not so cool. She's had a much crappier life than Luke Skywalker had up to A New Hope, that's for sure. I wouldn't actually want to have lived her life, and that's not indicative of a Mary Sue.

That also hits on something that goes against Rey being a self-insert. Self-inserts are characterized by a lack of conflict. They always do the right thing (as the author sees it). There's no emotional struggle. That's absolutely not the case with Rey. If anyone insists that Rey is free of conflict, I suggest they rewatch the scene where Rey first finds the lightsaber and rejects it. It's not hugely expanded upon, but neither was Luke's internal conflict in A New Hope. In fact, Luke has less internal conflict than Rey, in A New Hope at least. But it is there, and I expect it to be further explored in Episode VIII, just like Luke's character was explored a bit more in V.

What about conflict between characters, though? There's a clear example of that – when Finn just wants to escape from the First Order, and Rey insists that he stay and help the Resistance. Despite her best attempt, she's unable to talk Finn into staying. Not so indicative of being a Mary Sue – they don't lose arguments like that. I've seen people say that Han Solo shouldn't have been so quick to accept her, that he should have been harsher to her. My question is, _why_? What about Rey's behavior is Han not supposed to like, exactly? She's a very likable person and character. It feels natural to me that Han would quickly come to like Rey. And even when he offers her a job on the Falcon, he doesn't up and become a saint – he's clear that he “wouldn't be nice” to her, and “it doesn't pay much”. Simply being likable does not make a character a Mary Sue.

Lastly, there's the “saving the day with unrealistic abilities” aspect to Mary Sues. I don't think Rey's abilities are really that overpowered, and perhaps more importantly, I don't think she's really overpowered in comparison to Luke at the end of A New Hope. What are Rey's abilities? She's a pilot, she's experienced at physical combat with her staff, she's good with technology, and she starts demonstrating Force abilities. The pilot part should not be a problem for _anyone_ who's a fan of A New Hope and didn't have a problem with Luke just climbing in the X-Wing with little more setup than saying he was “not a bad pilot himself” earlier in the movie. Being good with technology makes sense considering how she's made a living scavenging such technology, and seems to have worked for the salvage dealer on other things. Her experience with her staff helps set up her being at least somewhat coordinated with a lightsaber once she grabs it. It also should be mentioned that, in the final fight, Ren was still struggling, both physically from the blaster wound and emotionally from the shock of having killed his own father. Rey is not actually stronger than Ren, the circumstances just allowed her to get the upper hand on him. And once Ren's received more training from Snoke, I'm sure their next encounter will not play out the same way.

As for her Force abilities – for the most part, I don't have a problem with them. The whole point of the movie is that she's “awakening” to her abilities (it's the freaking title of the movie). Pulling the lightsaber to her may seem sudden, but if you think about it, so was Luke's first time pulling a lightsaber to him in The Empire Strikes Back, as far as the movie's concerned. I think Rey opening herself to the Force after Ren mentions it is a pretty direct parallel to Luke using the Force to destroy the Death Star in A New Hope. He just hears Obi-Wan saying “Use the Force, Luke!” and he somehow knows exactly _how_ to use it to direct those torpedoes in and destroy the Death Star. All Obi-wan was shown to train Luke was how to “feel” and extend his senses in the immediate area. That's not knowledge on how to move a lightsaber with telekinesis, and it's not knowledge on how to shoot torpedoes with pinpoint accuracy without a targeting computer. If Rey's abilities with the Force don't sit well with you, then fine, but it's hard to argue it's much different than what Luke accomplished in A New Hope.

(The one exception to this is Rey mind tricking JB-007. That's a specific ability that takes conscious planning, and wouldn't have just come unconsciously to Rey. I would have liked if maybe it was established that Rey had _heard_ about mind tricks, and decided to try it after all this talk about the Force).




So there you have it. This is not a specific response to something, just my general thoughts about if Rey is a Mary Sue and responses to a couple complaints I've seen thrown around. In my opinion, Rey is not a Mary Sue.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 9, 2016)

tldr             .


----------



## Wan (Jan 9, 2016)

Yeah, I should have a TL;DR summary


*Spoiler*: __ 



There's some wish fulfillment to Rey, but she's had a crappy life and still has some psychological trauma so she's not completely built on wish fulfillment.  She does have conflict with Finn.  It's alright for Han Solo to like her.  Her abilities make sense, and specifically her Force abilities aren't any more unexplained or sudden than Luke's in A New Hope.  She doesn't have any of the actual characteristics of a Mary Sue, so she isn't a Mary Sue.


----------



## Grape (Jan 9, 2016)

tldr bending Mary Sue to not be Rey

After watching TFA I must agree with several complaints I had heard. 

Mary Rey Sue, A New Hope rip, predictable plot with "video game characters" who arise to the occasion and learn some new task like they're clearing levels in a video game (I bet Tetra loves TFA).

How many people in this series have to die in some gigantic, reactor-of-some-type, pit-having room? Do you people just circlejerk on this one thing? Like, "omfg did you see the way he died in the same generic way as X?". Fucking retarded.

Kylo whatever Solo was a fucking joke. Though you gotta hand it to Abrams for making the whiny-Skywalker-^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) a bad guy from the start.


Christ was Skywalker rocking the worst emo ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) look ever. At least Obi Wan looked cool in his elder years. Skywalker looks like he travels the galaxy with a box of hair dye and a My Chemical Romance album.

Abrams is hot trash. I don't even like Star Wars, but even I can recognize what a huge failure he is. He could have fulfilled so many people's desire to see an original story set in their favorite movie universe, but he being the predictable twat that he is, relies on other people's successes to guarantee his own. Reboots and sequels. Fucking trash.

Star Wars fans should be up in arms, not swallowing this generic rehashed bullshit like Jesus is serving you shots of his Holy Jizz.


----------



## Wan (Jan 9, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]yldgS-ySo24[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 10, 2016)

> *STAR WARS: TFA Home Release Will Include Deleted Scenes, But No Extended Cut*
> 
> As awesome as Star Wars: The Force Awakens was, there was quite a bit of stuff that went unexplained, and fans were looking forward to possibly seeing certain elements fleshed out a bit in an extended cut. Unfortunately, that's not on the cards.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bender (Jan 10, 2016)

Never heard of director doing VIII. Guy has any notable works that high rated stuff?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

Looper.**


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

Bender said:


> Never heard of director doing VIII. Guy has any notable works that high rated stuff?



He did Looper.

He also directed "Fly", "Fifty-One", "Ozymandias" episodes of Breaking Bad


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

He directed "Fly" and "Ozymandias"?

ayyyyy


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

Yup, I didn't know that either until I checked Wiki


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 10, 2016)

He's done 3 films, four if you don't count the first one that was a short film. From those Looper and another one called Brick are his most successful ones. So hopefully he does VIII well.



> *BOX OFFICE: STAR WARS: TFA Remains #1 In The US; Tops JURASSIC WORLD Globally*
> 
> Star Wars: The Force Awakens has had another huge weekend, beating The Revenant with an impressive $41.6 million compared to that movie's $38 million (which is still an incredible result for the Alejandro Gonz?lez I??rritu helmed release). The Return of the Jedi follow-up became the first movie in history to cross $800 million in North America yesterday, while a record breaking $52.6 million two day haul in China is pointing to The Force Awakens doing big business in the Middle Kingdom. Taking all of this into account, this latest Star Wars movie earned a whopping $145.93 million this weekend, and that means it has now sailed past the record held by Jurassic World to become the third highest grossing release of all-time. With a worldwide cume of $1.73 billion, there's still a little way to go until Star Wars: The Force Awakens tops Titanic's $2.18 billion, but it could very well happen. We're just going to have to wait and see how the next few weeks pan out!


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 10, 2016)

damn those numbers


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

why do people get so hyped about blockbusters making bank

it's not like you're getting a cut of those millions lol


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

i imagine they root for the success of things they like :byakuya


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 10, 2016)

I like reading "$1.73 billion" 



I also support the Mouse Empire myself, so


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

Weiss said:


> I like reading "$1.73 billion"
> 
> 
> 
> I also support the Mouse Empire myself, so



why did you post the byakuya emote as an image instead of using the emote code rofl


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

I could understand if it was some kind of underdog picture

but Star Wars? lol


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 10, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> why did you post the byakuya emote as an image instead of using the emote code rofl


because I didnt (and still dont) remember the emote code for that 


and was too lazy (still am) to press quote on your message


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 10, 2016)

oh wait its actually just byakuya




:byakuya


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I could understand if it was some kind of underdog picture
> 
> but Star Wars? lol


what's to understand about rooting for things you like? :byakuya


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

okay then

I _understand_

but that doesn't stop me from finding it silly


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

"omg wow this tried and true IP blockbuster manufactured by a bunch of suits for the primary purpose of making millions of dollars is making millions of dollars; crack out the champagne!"


----------



## Bender (Jan 10, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> He did Looper.
> 
> He also directed "Fly", "Fifty-One", "Ozymandias" episodes of Breaking Bad






Ah I saw "Looper". That was fuciing raw stuff. Like a less techno-filled Terminator for me. Only a dude and his future self butting heads. I got faith in the dude doing justice for VIII.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

u make us sad stunna

there aint no love in ya heart


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Not surprised by the playa hating Stunna is displaying tbh


----------



## Atlas (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> "omg wow this tried and true IP blockbuster manufactured by a bunch of suits for the primary purpose of making millions of dollars is making millions of dollars; crack out the champagne!"



I mean, we all knew this would be making millions of dollars.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

tfw when I'm gonna make 90% of what SWs made in a day when I win the powerball


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Atlas said:


> I mean, we all knew this would be making millions of dollars.



expectations was close to 2 billion 3 months before it was released. 

Sooo yeah.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> tfw when I'm gonna make 90% of what SWs made in a day when I win the powerball



tfw Stunna's gonna hate  as he usually does when others achieve greatness.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

lol I'm not hatin'; more power to Disney and Abrams and company for raking in the dough. I just think it's kinda funny how excited people get for them, as if this is the first time they've made bank off a picture, or as if Star Wars was a small indie film that no one expected to go the distance.


----------



## Mider T (Jan 10, 2016)

Weiss said:


> oh wait its actually just byakuya
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Too lazy to click a button.

Smh this generation.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 10, 2016)

i wanna see ahsoka

anyone else think lupita nyongo was wasted talent. maybe in the deleted scenes she gets more of an intro.

i wonder if we'll see anakin's force ghost in the deleted scenes haha wasn't he rumored to have been cut?


----------



## bloodplzkthxlol (Jan 10, 2016)

its star wars, of course its gonna make a lot of money, i wasn't expecting THIS much though.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> anyone else think lupita nyongo was wasted talent.


she definitely was

I wish she wasn't a motion capture dwarf, but at least she claims that she's pleased with the role



> i wonder if we'll see anakin's force ghost in the deleted scenes haha wasn't he rumored to have been cut?


I wouldn't be _completely_ surprised if Anakin's ghost appeared before Kylo later down the line.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

> but at least she claims that she's pleased with the role



well

no-one is gonna say they're displeased with a role in a movie that is not only critically well-received but also the 3rd highest grossing movie of all time

people don't speak out against their movies in almost any capacity unless the movie is a total failure like fant4stic


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

true

not everyone's like Shia


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

bloodplzkthxlol said:


> its star wars, of course its gonna make a lot of money, i wasn't expecting THIS much though.



Fam...My local supermarket has Star Wars logos plastered all over the product..


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

that said as an oscar winning actress i think she'd be a tad irritated by a role as exposition dwarf, but maybe she's just thankful to get a giant paycheck


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

This role wasn't forced upon her,dafuq?

You think she might've starred in this as a favor to someone or sumthin?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> This role wasn't forced upon her,dafuq?
> 
> You think she might've starred in this as a favor to someone or sumthin?



what?


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> "omg wow this tried and true IP blockbuster manufactured by a bunch of suits for the primary purpose of making millions of dollars is making millions of dollars; crack out the champagne!"



Or...."this thing I really like is really popular and it making money helps validate that its good and I have good taste "

This is like asking why people are so invested in sports and particular players essentially.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> what?





> Nyong'o revealed in a Buzzfeed News interview on why she has chosen the role as Maz because she wanted to play a specific role where her appearance is not a thing in question and the acting was more of a different challenge than her role as Patsey in 12 Years a Slave



She just wanted to try something new. I don't think she cared about being an exposition dwarf.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

She didn't wanna be black, that's all that means


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Or...."this thing I really like is really popular and it making money helps validate that its good and I have good taste "


yeah

which is a silly mentality



> This is like asking why people are so invested in sports and particular players essentially.


not really tho


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jan 10, 2016)

As long as they were upfront with what was in the role, I don't see why she would be angry about anything. Maz is boring, but not offensively bad or anything. Maybe Johnson does something interesting with her in the next film (which she is apparently in).


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> She just wanted to try something new. I don't think she cared about being an exposition dwarf.



lol the challenge of voice-acting lines that are 90% exposition 

whatever


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 10, 2016)

well to be honest she didn't have much of a role in 12 years of slaves either
she got yelled at by michael fassbender in like 2 scenes

???


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

something new =/= something challenging


----------



## Grape (Jan 10, 2016)

Exposition Dwarf.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Guy Gardner said:


> As long as they were upfront with what was in the role, I don't see why she would be angry about anything.



My silliness went out of control but yes, that is also what I was saying.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 10, 2016)

i also think the game of thrones character was a bit of a let down lol
so much hype about "omg game of thrones character is in it!1" but she easily could have had a stunt double and do less than 5 minutes of voice overs lol
then again i thought carrie fisher and harrison ford were going to just have small roles in this but it turned out to be about them


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

Lupita Nyong'o
Gwendoline Christie
Yayan Ruhian
Iko Uwais

all wasted


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> something new =/= something challenging



she did use the word challenge :byakuya





Stunna said:


> Lupita Nyong'o
> Gwendoline Christie
> Yayan Ruhian
> Iko Uwais
> ...



TRU


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> something new =/= something challenging



This is directed at me?

Cause I didn't say they were.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

Hopefully they don't waste Gugu


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

that post was directed at Luc in defense of Gesy

but nvm my b


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Oh, good looking out, fam.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Yayan Ruhian
> Iko Uwais



Shit, I almost forgot they were even in the movie.


----------



## Atlas (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Lupita Nyong'o
> Gwendoline Christie
> Yayan Ruhian
> Iko Uwais
> ...



I kinda expected this, tbh. 

Phasma was a walking trash can.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 10, 2016)

Phasma's role is _most_ disappointing given her marketing.


----------



## Tiger (Jan 10, 2016)

Hey guys, we're looking for some folks who loved the movie and would be interested in playing a game of mafia using the characters as roles.

We have enough players, but we'd love to get some new people involved, and some veteran players are 100% willing to give their spot to a newb. 

If at all interested, just give and read up. We're extremely new-player friendly, so don't be shy.


----------



## Wan (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> she definitely was
> 
> I wish she wasn't a motion capture dwarf, but at least she claims that she's pleased with the role



Hey, I liked Maz.



A. Waltz said:


> i also think the game of thrones character was a bit of a let down lol
> so much hype about "omg game of thrones character is in it!1" but she easily could have had a stunt double and do less than 5 minutes of voice overs lol
> then again i thought carrie fisher and harrison ford were going to just have small roles in this but it turned out to be about them



Yeah Captain Phasma was a little too hyped up for what she was in the movie.  Doesn't bother me as far as the movie's quality is concerned, though.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

she could have played Maz without being a CGI dwarf tho


----------



## Wan (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> she could have played Maz without being a CGI dwarf tho



And Frank Oz could have played Yoda without being a rubber dwarf


----------



## Gunners (Jan 10, 2016)

People need to pull their heads out of their asses. 

“I thought that gave me a unique experience where I got to play a character that wasn’t limited by my physical circumstances, and that was something I wanted to do ever since seeing Andy Serkis in Lord of the Rings as Gollum.”


In the actresses own words, the role appealed to her because it gave her the opportunity to do something new. You can't expect a professional actress to be as petty and narrow minded as armchair critics.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

Wan said:


> And Frank Oz could have played Yoda without being a rubber dwarf


I mean

yeah...he could have

but how is that relevant. people are saying they wanted to see Nyong'o and not the CGI dwarf. who said anything about Oz or Yoda?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

and since you've mentioned it: key difference between Lupita and Maz and Oz and Yoda?

Empire would have been weaker without its dwarf. Awakens didn't need its dwarf.


----------



## Wan (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I mean
> 
> yeah...he could have
> 
> but how is that relevant. people are saying they wanted to see Nyong'o and not the CGI dwarf. who said anything about Oz or Yoda?



And I'm saying the CGI dwarf was fine

Edit:  And, while maybe not as essential as Yoda was, I do think Awakens would have been weaker without Maz.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

good for you, my man

Yoda was still irrelevant to the convo tho

and, what? how did Maz being a little alien benefit the movie as opposed to her being human?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 10, 2016)

stunna why are you entertaining this dribble

let it go


----------



## Gunners (Jan 10, 2016)

The character didn't contribute to the film in the sense that if she was cut out the film would not have suffered. 

That being said, I find some parts of your argument wrong and hypocritical. If you are going to find fault with Maz being an alien, you should find fault with Yoda as he is a character that could have been portrayed by a human.

Ultimately, it is a film set in space involving different species. Maz being an alien helps with the imersion and it also rationalised her age. She is supposed to be someone who has witnessed countless generations pass which would be hindered by the lifespan of a human.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

Gunners said:


> That being said, I find some parts of your argument wrong and hypocritical. If you are going to find fault with Maz being an alien, you should find fault with Yoda as he is a character that could have been portrayed by a human.


Not really.

Yoda being a dwarfish alien was a much more invaluable decision because the entire point of his character was that he illustrated how the Force is an energy that transcends physical limitations. When Luke goes to Dagobah expecting to find a great warrior and he runs into this little muppet instead, it drives the point home brilliantly.

Maz? Literally nothing about her required her to be a dwarfish alien.

The point is that some of us would have preferred that Lupita play the role without any CGI because we like her as an actress, and nothing would have been lost if she'd played a human instead.



> Ultimately, it is a film set in space involving different species. Maz being an alien helps with the imersion and it also rationalised her age. She is supposed to be someone who has witnessed countless generations pass which would be hindered by the lifespan of a human.


Lupita could have easily played an alien near-indistinguishable from humans that had a long lifespan. It's not like TFA would have missed one alien out of the dozens of other species shown.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 10, 2016)

But what if she was Plaugis


----------



## Atlas (Jan 10, 2016)

But what if Snoke was Darth Jar Jar?


----------



## sworder (Jan 10, 2016)

stunna really driving it home with ridiculous complaints


----------



## Bender (Jan 10, 2016)

Who the fuck cares if Maz was a minute ya goddamn whiners. 

She was an excellent sage character and accomplished her role in assisting the main group.

Also IIRC according to an article  Phasma is still alive. However, because of her easy dispatching by Han, Finn and Chewbacca she may be ashamed to be seen for a while.


----------



## Bender (Jan 10, 2016)

sworder said:


> stunna really driving it home with ridiculous complaints





Thus why I am being careful with what debates I engage in him.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 10, 2016)

I'm not really complaining that she was an alien; the movie doesn't lose points over something like that.

I'd just prefer if Lupita wasn't CG'd.


----------



## Bender (Jan 10, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I'd just prefer if Lupita wasn't CG'd.



who cares if she was CG'd. 

That's a very dumb gripe (even more than the other ones you've made).

I like the CGI version of her more than her actual person being in the film. There wouldn't be much diversity of alien races if Lupita wasn't CG'd.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 12, 2016)

so TFA wont beat Avatar ?


----------



## Bender (Jan 12, 2016)

@Weiss

Slow down. It's too early to draw that conclusion.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 12, 2016)

Weiss said:


> so TFA wont beat Avatar ?



On the 18th day of domestic release, Avatar made more money than TFA

and since then if you compare them it's been flip flopping back and forth

TFA has no chance of beating avatar because avatar essentially cheated by being the first movie of its kind so everyone went back to see it many, many times over.

People will and have watched star wars multiple times, but it doesn't have the visual spectacle of avatar, nothing about it is groundbreaking in that sense, so it won't have the staying power.

It might beat Titanic, but Avatar is unreachable


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 12, 2016)

so Dream was right

damn


----------



## Bender (Jan 12, 2016)

Goddammit Nightly you really know how to crush the optimism of people.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 12, 2016)

she is supposed to be a nihilistic teenager or something


----------



## Bender (Jan 12, 2016)

@Weiss

Ya mean the technical term "Emo teen".


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 13, 2016)

if it makes you feel better, it's probably a surer statement that the new SW trilogy will outperform the Avatar Trilogy 

I don't know for sure, but I'm willing to bet that avatar's 2.8 billion was a fluke, Avatar 2/3 will make billions for sure, but I don't see them cracking avatar 1 for the same reason that nothing else has done it yet either


----------



## Mider T (Jan 13, 2016)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 13, 2016)

.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 13, 2016)

> *Isaac Says Star Wars 7 Spoilers OK Now; Abrams Knows Rey’s Identity*
> 
> As J.J. Abrams’ Star Wars: Episode VII – The Force Awakens shatters box office records, many fans are starting to look ahead to the future of the sequel trilogy. And fortunately for them, they won’t have to wait long for Rian Johnson’s Star Wars: Episode VIII. Principal photography on the project will commence shortly, as the film is scheduled for a May 2017 release. While The Force Awakens had its fair share of shocking reveals and moments, there are a number of unanswered questions left to explore in the forthcoming installments, adding layers of intrigue to the next movies.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 13, 2016)

> *BOX OFFICE: Just How Close Will STAR WARS: TFA Come To Beating AVATAR's Record?*
> 
> There's no two ways about it; Star Wars: The Force Awakens is a massive critical and commercial hit. Sure, it's probably not going to become the highest grossing release of all-time, but it's honestly unlikely that anything will ever top Avatar, so just the fact that it's going to come close is amazing. With over $1.75 billion at the worldwide box office, The Hollywood Reporter believes that it's still on track to top Titantic's $2.19 billion haul in the coming weeks. Why then won't it reach Avatar? Well, the Force apparently isn't as strong in Asia and Latin America, while the fact that it will likely be out of cinemas long before Avatar was also poses a problem for the J.J. Abrams helmed release.
> 
> Analysts predict as much as $900 million in North America and between $1.2 billion to $1.4 billion overseas to give Star Wars: The Force Awakens a worldwide haul of $2.1 billion to $2.3 billion (some believe it could go as high as $2.4 billion). _"No matter what, the film is an absolute, all-out blockbuster without peer in terms of the sheer speed at which it has crossed all of these major box-office milestones,"_ says says Rentrak's Paul Dergarabedian. _"With very few box-office frontiers to conquer, including the $1 billion mark in North America, and a penciled-in reservation in the exclusive $2 billion club, if Force Awakens winds up sandwiched between the two biggest movies of all-time, Avatar and Titanic, no one associated with the film will be singing the Jedi blues. They'll be celebrating this dream scenario result."_ Wall Street experts have also stated that Disney $4 billion investment will pay off for them in a massive way, so the future is looking very bright for the Star Wars Universe. How much do you think the movie will end up making?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 13, 2016)




----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 13, 2016)

> *BOX OFFICE: STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Sails By AGE OF ULTRON's International Gross*
> 
> According to a new report by Variety, Star Wars: The Force Awakens racked up $11.5 million overseas on Tuesday, adding to its total international gross, which is now $946.9 million! With that added to its total, "The Force Awakens" has just passed Avengers: Age of Ultron for the sixth position on the all-time international grosses list! The report adds that the seventh Star Wars film is set to take the fifth spot from Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows — Part 2 in the coming days, and surpass Jurrasic World's international haul ($1.02 billion) by the end of the week. "The Force Awakens" also made 3.8 million in the U.S. this past Monday, rasing it's worldwide gross to $1.77 billion. With that said, the film looks to surpass Titanic worldwide, however, passing Avatar worldwide doesn't look likely. What do you think? Share your thoughts in the comment section below!


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 13, 2016)

TFA is the superior movie 




and TR-8R would like to have a word with Jake Sully


----------



## Stunna (Jan 13, 2016)

I think you meant Jake Soolee


----------



## Bender (Jan 13, 2016)

Holy fucking shit China loved the shit out of Avatar


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 13, 2016)

the whole planet loved the shit out of it

or, its 3D


----------



## Bender (Jan 13, 2016)

@Weiss

I think it's the 3D more than the movie.

The folks I went with wouldn't shut up about how great the 3D was after the movie was over.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 13, 2016)

avatar wasnt awesome but i still liked it


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 13, 2016)

why was avatar's 3D stuff hyped up? i dont remember why. it basically had the same story as pocahontas. wasn't really re-watch worthy imo.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 13, 2016)

it was the first modern 3d film with the tech they were using


----------



## Bender (Jan 13, 2016)

What Mike said.

I ain't remember many films doing the 3D schtick back in 2008.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 13, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> it was the first modern 3d film with the tech they were using



what do you mean by 3D? like CGI? iron man came out before then though and that suit was pretty CGI


----------



## Wan (Jan 13, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> what do you mean by 3D? like CGI? iron man came out before then though and that suit was pretty CGI



No, stereoscopic 3D. The kind where you put glasses on.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

updated opinion:

it's looking unlikely it'll go far past titanic, or even at all, at this point because china hates it


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 14, 2016)

but 2B get ?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 14, 2016)

Nighty said:


> updated opinion:
> 
> it's looking unlikely it'll go far past titanic, or even at all, at this point because china hates it



snoke is time travelling dimension hopping chairman mao


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

Weiss said:


> but 2B get ?



potentially

it needs another 200m

which is ~safe enough on the surface of it

and then it needs another 200m beyond that to beat titanic

and that's not even inflation adjusted

cameron op


----------



## sworder (Jan 14, 2016)

Nighty said:


> updated opinion:
> 
> it's looking unlikely it'll go far past titanic, or even at all, at this point because china hates it



wut

it's a huge hit in china, biggest opening there ever

whether it will last is another thing, but it's predicted that it will beat avatar in that market


----------



## Bender (Jan 14, 2016)

How much more money does it need to beat Avatar atm?


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 14, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> why was avatar's 3D stuff hyped up? i dont remember why. it basically had the same story as pocahontas. wasn't really re-watch worthy imo.



Avatar single handedly brought back 3D from the dead; it hadn't been used since like the 80's.

after Avatar nearly every movie for a while, big or small, had some form of 3D release.





Bender said:


> How much more money does it need to beat Avatar atm?


like another Billy or so.

Cameron was yanked from his mothers crotch by the hand of Midas.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

sworder said:


> wut
> 
> it's a huge hit in china, biggest opening there ever
> 
> whether it will last is another thing, but it's predicted that it will beat avatar in that market



yeah no 

TFA has the biggest *saturday *opening in Chinese box office history but:

TFA made ~$66m in four days cf. 

JW at $99.1m in three days

AoU at $155.7m in three days

Furious 7 at $182.4m in three days

the only reason TFA holds any kind of record in china right now is that absolutely no-one releases movies on a saturday, so it can claim the record by being the only one competing.

the highest prediction I've seen for TFA in china is $200m and a more conservative estimate might be $150m, meanwhile Avatar grossed $209m all up, so unless TFA picks up steam, which is looking unlikely atm, it will catch up to Avatar at best, very little chance of beating it by very far and absolutely no chance of hitting F7's "$400m" target.

Seriously look at this:

"Following a $33 million opening day, on a Saturday, the film plunged 35% to $20.7m on Sunday and then dropped another 65% on Monday for a $7.2m gross. It dropped 17% on Tuesday for a $6m gross and a new $66m four-day total."

35 to 65 to 17

that's ludicrously poor performance in what's quickly becoming a major blockbuster market

some or even most of this can be attributed to the fact that china has historically had no interest in the franchise, but there also appears to be a cultural allignment against the film itself, e.g claims that people were sleeping in theatres, it's just not a good chinese movie, which is fine because china is literally shit tier but we're talking business here.


----------



## sworder (Jan 14, 2016)

well TFA is fucked

i blame all the shitty journalists that put a spin on the news instead of reporting the facts


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 14, 2016)

wait furious 7 made $400m in china?

i guess asses, fast cars, explosions, and muscles are a universal language


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

Look to see how Rogue One goes in China, TFA has done its job perfectly because it's job was to prove to consumers that Disney can do better than the prequels, it's a love letter to the fans saying look at us we're not abysmal like Lucas was, you can trust us. They've basically ripped everything they possibly can from the OT at this point, with a mix of Empire and ANH (nobody cares about Jedi, that's already anh 2.0) so from here on out it should all be ~original more or less.

Part of the problem in China is that China doesn't five a fuck about Star Wars, look at where TFA does best; UK and the US, two places that are culturally beholden to the Star Wars legacy more than anywhere else and in those places it easily took the biggest gross in history records in weeks. The kind of movie that TFA is, plays off that love of the orignal trilogy, and if it doesn't exist, like in China for example, then it stalls at the starting line.

Also the chinese are racist as fuck, like seriously, legitmately racist, and they only really turn out for movies with 'Chinese' people in them, another reason to look to Rogue one.

So that's your metric, if Rogue One comes out and does abysmally in China then forget about it, it's not happening any time soon. If Rogue One does well then SWVIII might have some legs on it.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 14, 2016)

hey dartg

is mike dating that girl who appears in a lot of botw episodes?

in episode #3, she, like, nestles against him

it's very romantic


----------



## Stunna (Jan 14, 2016)

Mike and Jessi are an item.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 14, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Mike and Jessi are an item.



aw, that's nice

i wonder what jay's bearded male model romantic life is like


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

I had that thought too but I dunno where to go for info about rlm personal lives so I'm not sure 

I know that she does stuff behind the scenes a lot, like manages shipping and shit or something? Not quite sure on the specifics, but that general area



Lucaniel said:


> wait furious 7 made $400m in china?
> 
> i guess asses, fast cars, explosions, and muscles are a universal language



also the fact that



took a 10% stake in it probably helped a lot too


----------



## Stunna (Jan 14, 2016)

apparently Jessi decided to stop appearing on the shows because of internet creepers


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 14, 2016)

Nighty said:


> also the fact that
> 
> 
> 
> took a 10% stake in it probably helped a lot too


ew

it's a new world 


Stunna said:


> apparently Jessi decided to stop appearing on the shows because of internet creepers


smh 
i was wondering what the deal was with new botws being total sausage fests


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> aw, that's nice
> 
> i wonder what jay's bearded male model romantic life is like



jay does backdoor stunting all the time


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 14, 2016)

rofl backdoor stunting

did you enjoy that 5 minute long segment of escalating gay jokes


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

yes 

not a huge fan of the canadian duo tbh 

they just seem a bit boring to me


----------



## Stunna (Jan 14, 2016)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 14, 2016)

> Also the chinese are racist as fuck, like seriously, legitmately racist


this is truth


----------



## Bender (Jan 14, 2016)

Nighty said:


> Look to see how Rogue One goes in China, TFA has done its job perfectly because it's job was to prove to consumers that Disney can do better than the prequels, it's a love letter to the fans saying look at us we're not abysmal like Lucas was, you can trust us. They've basically ripped everything they possibly can from the OT at this point, with a mix of Empire and ANH (nobody cares about Jedi, that's already anh 2.0) so from here on out it should all be ~original more or less.
> 
> Part of the problem in China is that China doesn't five a fuck about Star Wars, look at where TFA does best; UK and the US, two places that are culturally beholden to the Star Wars legacy more than anywhere else and in those places it easily took the biggest gross in history records in weeks. The kind of movie that TFA is, plays off that love of the orignal trilogy, and if it doesn't exist, like in China for example, then it stalls at the starting line.
> 
> ...




Geezus it's a surprise that there's any nice things in China.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 14, 2016)

I hear they hid Finn in a small corner in the Chinese poster


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 14, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> I hear they hid Finn in a small corner in the Chinese poster



he's still in the middle

just tiny

why you practically can't tell that he's black tbh


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 14, 2016)

I wouldn't have found him if I didn't look for him. He blends in too much with the blue hue.

BB-8 was given more significance.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 14, 2016)

surprised star wars didn't get a production design nomination for the oscars


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 15, 2016)




----------



## strongarm85 (Jan 15, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> surprised star wars didn't get a production design nomination for the oscars



Film Editing – Maryann Brandon and Mary Jo Markey
Original Score – John Williams 
Visual Effects – Roger Guyett, Patrick Tubach, Neal Scanlan, and Chris Corbould
Sound Editing – Matthew Wood and David Acord 
Sound Mixing – Andy Nelson, Christopher Scarabosio, and Stuart Wilson 

Those are all different aspects of Porduction and Design. Star Wars got 5 Nominations for Production and design.

It's also the most nominations that any Star Wars film has ever received.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 15, 2016)

tbh it shouldn't win any of those


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 15, 2016)

should nominate TFA for best picture


----------



## Stunna (Jan 15, 2016)




----------



## sworder (Jan 15, 2016)

TFA easily takes visual effects

it's no Interstellar but nothing else comes close, not even The Martian


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 15, 2016)

>what is FURY ROAD
U
R
Y

R
O
A
D


----------



## sworder (Jan 15, 2016)

idk

IDK

it's just a big wasteland 

tbh all the nominations are good


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 15, 2016)

I haven't checked the actual noms

>watching oscars

not even once tbh family


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 15, 2016)

sworder said:


> TFA easily takes visual effects
> 
> it's no Interstellar but nothing else comes close, not even The Martian



it certainly doesn't have interstellar's innovative space bookcase visual effects which are a bunch of multicoloured, blurry lines vaguely forming cuboids


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 15, 2016)

strongarm85 said:


> Film Editing ? Maryann Brandon and Mary Jo Markey
> Original Score ? John Williams
> Visual Effects ? Roger Guyett, Patrick Tubach, Neal Scanlan, and Chris Corbould
> Sound Editing ? Matthew Wood and David Acord
> ...



yeah i know but there's a specific oscar for production design (the sets and shit)

tbh the score wasn't as good as the prequel scores imo. but it's still probably a lot better than any of the other movies nominated for that category. idk the music felt less memorable and lots of action scores sounded more like something out of an avengers movie. 
it sucks that all this prequel hate doesn't let directors even mimic the good aspects of it, like the soundtrack and use of music.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 15, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> but it's still probably a lot better than any of the other movies nominated for that category.


Hateful Eight and Sicario blow it out of the water.

As do other movies that didn't get nominated, for whatever reason.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 15, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Hateful Eight and Sicario blow it out of the water.
> 
> As do other movies that didn't get nominated, for whatever reason.



haven't seen em. i dont doubt hateful eight had a good OST though.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 15, 2016)

Ennio Morricone.


----------



## Atlas (Jan 16, 2016)

Link removed

Maz knows the force?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 16, 2016)

maz is yoda's waifu


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 16, 2016)

yep             .


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 16, 2016)

Nighty said:


> maz is yoda's waifu



oh god no, please don't do this


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 16, 2016)

Atlas said:


> Link removed
> 
> Maz knows the force?



She's a Force Sensitive, yeah. She's not a Jedi or anything though.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 16, 2016)

Hateful 8 OST >>> TFA


----------



## All The Good Names Are Taken (Jan 16, 2016)

nighty said:


> >what is FURY ROAD
> U
> R
> Y
> ...



When did it become generally accepted that FR was the best movie of the year? It was definitely an entertaining balls to wall action extravaganza but best picture contender really? Especially, when Beasts of No Nation and Ex Machina were released in the same year.


----------



## All The Good Names Are Taken (Jan 16, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Hateful 8 OST >>> TFA


TFA OST was a letdown. By comparison, the prequels shit stomp TFA in that regard. It might as well have been any generic composer.From what I understand Mr.Williams is having health problems , as old people are like to do , that might have contributed. 

Remember the coffee scene in Hateful 8.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 16, 2016)

that was clearly in response to the visual effects thing 

names pls


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 16, 2016)

All The Good Names Are Taken said:


> TFA OST was a letdown. By comparison, the prequels shit stomp TFA in that regard. It might as well have been any generic composer.From what I understand Mr.Williams is having health problems , as old people are like to do , that might have contributed.
> 
> Remember the coffee scene in Hateful 8.



[YOUTUBE]CuvkpkkHp_A[/YOUTUBE]

It was originally supposed to be in The Thing, but it got cut from the movie somehow 

Also was Beasts of No Nation even nominated? Probably not because the Oscar's are racist a joke


----------



## Bender (Jan 16, 2016)

TFA OST was alright. Nothing impressive, but still likable.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 16, 2016)

Finally saw The Force Awakens. I feel like I'm the last white person on Earth to do that. Collecting my thoughts to review it one aspect at a time later. Really liked it. Don't feel like I have to apologize for it as a Star Wars fan the way some of us do with the prequels.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 16, 2016)

I was hoping Duel of Fates was gonna be in the movie. Come on, you can't hate on that track.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 16, 2016)

That would have been distracting lol


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 17, 2016)

You don't have to "hate on something" to agree it has a time and a place. That time and place is 1999, a year where many things happened that I regret. 

As for this particular installment, the first positive thing that springs to mind was how damn funny it was. Finn was a truly comedic character, but in that likable way. I relate to this guy. He's a big, nerdy goofball with no social skills. The trailers and promotional content were misleading, making him out to be some Jedi badass, when really he's the Han of the new series.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 17, 2016)

Duel of Fates - best prequel track for me and maybe even top3 of all series


loooove that shit especially during Yoda-Sidious fight


----------



## Əyin (Jan 17, 2016)

Kylo Ren is getting roasted by his employees   
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE[/youtube]


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 17, 2016)




----------



## sworder (Jan 17, 2016)

wow that shit was great


----------



## All The Good Names Are Taken (Jan 17, 2016)

nighty said:


> that was clearly in response to the visual effects thing
> 
> names pls



It's still a valid question given all the wank it's getting.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 17, 2016)

>do you guys believe what he says when he says he's going to finish what darth vader started


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 17, 2016)

That was well done


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 17, 2016)

Əyin said:


> [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE[/youtube]



Kylo Ren; so awkward...those Sith tier social skills


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 17, 2016)

He was about this awkward in the actual movie. He came across as a confused teenager more than anything. I predict a heel/face turn for him later, with another of the Knights of Ren ascending to be the real main bad guy of the series. Snoke will die in Episode 9, or not at all. They may keep him around for the next trilogy. I'm also predicting Snoke is like Yoda sized irl, and the hologram thing is for fear.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 17, 2016)

is it confirmed that they're making another trilogy after episode 9?


----------



## Mider T (Jan 17, 2016)

Where is that idea coming from?  I've heard multiple people say that.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 17, 2016)

Mider T said:


> Where is that idea coming from?  I've heard multiple people say that.



Lucas' original idea was 12 movies

but he condensed it to 9

and then later to 6 after the poor reception of the prequel trilogy

or so the story goes


----------



## Mider T (Jan 17, 2016)

Source         ?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 17, 2016)

Mark Hamil circa the release of empire iirc


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 17, 2016)

Əyin said:


> Kylo Ren is getting roasted by his employees
> [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE[/youtube]



Funniest skit since Mike Myers' cameo as Dr. Evil last year


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 17, 2016)

Let's be realistic, here. Disney is in the business of making money, and they've already hinted at a plan to release at least one Star Wars franchise movie per year going forward. I seriously doubt Episode 9 will be the end of the main story progression, because Star Wars is cash money.


----------



## Bender (Jan 17, 2016)

On critics choice awards the next nomination is "Best Picture"

Star Wars The Force Awakens is a nominee. Cross your fingers it gets picked guys...


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 18, 2016)

Implying it's a better film than the Revenant or the Hateful Eight. It's pretty damned good, but it's got stiff competition.


----------



## insane111 (Jan 18, 2016)

So I haven't been keeping track of this whatsoever to avoid spoilers.

1. Are theye any stable/nonshaky, half decent quality recordings?
2. If not, what is the release date for the Blu-Ray?


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 18, 2016)

Anyone notice Snoke's theme is nearly identical to the "Darth Plagueis the Wise" theme from Revenge of the Sith? 


[YOUTUBE]mSQ3BJVMfAI[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## strongarm85 (Jan 18, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Anyone notice Snoke's theme is nearly identical to the "Darth Plagueis the Wise" theme from Revenge of the Sith?
> 
> 
> [YOUTUBE]mSQ3BJVMfAI[/YOUTUBE]



Yep, weeks ago


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

yes we noticed


Kylo also says that Supreme Leader is wise


----------



## Stunna (Jan 18, 2016)

Weiss said:


> Kylo also says that Supreme Leader is wise


jet fuel can't melt steel beams


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

Stunna said:


> jet fuel can't melt steel beams


what does that have to do with stating a simple fact from the movie ?


> Kylo also says that Supreme Leader is wise


----------



## Stunna (Jan 18, 2016)

I was poking fun at how silly it is to take something as innocuous as "X is wise" as evidence that X is secretly someone whose title was "the Wise," and not just a statement that X is a wise person.

I mean, the theory could be validated in the future, but for now, it's funny.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

its not evidence because there is no claim

I dont even think Snoke will turn out to be Plagueis fyi


just something to note


----------



## Wan (Jan 18, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Implying it's a better film than the Revenant or the Hateful Eight. It's pretty damned good, but it's got stiff competition.



TFA, The Hateful Eight, and The Revenant are each completely different films; it's impossible to declare that any of them are objectively better than the others. It's like asking what's better, Terminator 2, The Princess Bride, or Schindler's List.  One can have a subjective preference for a specific one -- I saw TH8, and while I think it's a good movie, I still prefer TFA. But really, awarding a single "best picture" of the year is just an exercise in futility. It's no more than a popularity contest with a select group of people.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 18, 2016)

Wan said:


> TFA, The Hateful Eight, and The Revenant are each completely different films...


I hate it when people say this as if it makes it impossible to compare them. You might use different standards for each type of movie, but that doesn't make them incomparable.

Both Hateful Eight and Revenant dunk on TFA.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 18, 2016)

when movies are trying to do different things, you can compare them using the metric of their own aims and how well they achieve them, as well as how good they are relative to their own genres or relative to similar movies

:byakuya


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

TFA was movie of the year !


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 18, 2016)

the sad thing is, you probably believe that


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 18, 2016)

Force Awakens wasn't even the best_ syfy_ film of last year..


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

curse you people !


----------



## Raidoton (Jan 18, 2016)

~Gesy~ said:


> Force Awakens wasn't even the best_ syfy_ film of last year..


TFA wasn't even the best Star Wars film last year!


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 18, 2016)

hey just finished watching TCW

is rebels any good?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

not as good as TCW


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 18, 2016)

any chance of them finishing TCW in the future?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 18, 2016)

nope           .


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jan 18, 2016)

They did a comic Darth Maul Son of Dathomir to handle one plot point of Talzin/Maul and Dark Disciple novel involving Vos/Ventress/Dooku to tie up another plot point. Might do more in comic or novel form. Was supposed to go till S8.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 18, 2016)

Tranquil Fury said:


> They did a comic Darth Maul Son of Dathomir to handle one plot point of Talzin/Maul and Dark Disciple novel involving Vos/Ventress/Dooku to tie up another plot point. Might do more in comic or novel form. Was supposed to go till S8.



eh i wasn't too into ventress/dooku or darth  maul and talzin. though i did hope that obi wan would defeat darth maul. man those writers sure hated obi wan, took away his feats, killed his lover, made him a punching bag for almost 2 seasons lmfao. like i know that they want to hype up anakin but man they made obi wan seem so weak  

is there a comic or novel about what happened to ahsoka?


----------



## Rukia (Jan 18, 2016)

Star Wars Rebels is better than the Force Awakens.


----------



## Atlas (Jan 18, 2016)

I agree, really looking forward to Rebels.


----------



## Mider T (Jan 18, 2016)

Rukia said:


> Star Wars Rebels is better than the Force Awakens.



Nah, but you don't respond to people who respond to your bait so automatically I win.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 19, 2016)

Weiss said:


> yes we noticed
> 
> 
> Kylo also says that Supreme Leader is wise



Kinda makes me feel like it's a false flag. Like we're supposed to pick up on the hints but it's a misdirection.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 19, 2016)

> *BOX OFFICE: STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Hits The $100 Million Mark In China*
> 
> According to a report by The Hollywood Reporter, Star Wars: The Force Awakens grossed $14.82 million over the weekend, raising its total China gross to $100 million. Even though the film hit this milestone, its weekend gross (Jan. 16-17), dropped 72 percent from its opening weekend amount ($53 million). On top of that, it lost its second weekend in China to Boonie Bears 3 (a local animated feature), which racked up $15.08 million.
> 
> ...


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 19, 2016)

china is not strong in the force


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 19, 2016)

boom

there goes the 2 billion hopes and dreams


----------



## Bender (Jan 19, 2016)

God motherfucking dammit China you're a headache.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 19, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> eh i wasn't too into ventress/dooku or darth  maul and talzin. though i did hope that obi wan would defeat darth maul. man those writers sure hated obi wan, took away his feats, killed his lover, made him a punching bag for almost 2 seasons lmfao. like i know that they want to hype up anakin but man they made obi wan seem so weak
> 
> is there a comic or novel about what happened to ahsoka?


No, that is a result of you looking at things on a simplistic manner. The events showed how much stronger Obi Wan was than Anakin in terms of character; he was able to experience fear and loss without it breaking him.

People need to get over their infantile obsession with battle strength and stop using it as the only measure of a character.


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 19, 2016)

Gunners said:


> No, that is a result of you looking at things on a simplistic manner. The events showed how much stronger Obi Wan was than Anakin in terms of character; he was able to experience fear and loss without it breaking him.
> 
> People need to get over their infantile obsession with battle strength and stop using it as the only measure of a character.



you're talking to the wrong person on that front, lol. i never give a darn about power scales. but seriously, obi wan kept getting beat to a pulp in season 4. all the time. his initial battles against darth maul, especially. in a lot of other scenes, he was doing it because it was part of the plan or because he couldn't risk letting others get injured (slave arc, satine's capture).


----------



## Gunners (Jan 19, 2016)

I thought he handled himself quite well against Maul. I know he was jumped in one situation, but in another he held his own against Maul and Savage, broke Savage's knee and managed to escape.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 20, 2016)

Obi Wan didn't have the benefit of being some Force-freak born of the midichlorians like Anakin. For a normal Human Jedi he had extraordinary talent. Taking on any two dark side users simultaneously is beyond most average Jedi. Obi-Wan has repeatedly taken down or at least held his own against people who were known killers of Jedi, like Grievous. To me, that's a strong indicator of his skill as a warrior.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 20, 2016)

China


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

qui gon and obi wan were the best Jedi of their generation


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> qui gon and obi wan were the best Jedi of their generation





windu was from qui gon's generation


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

yes and qui-gon or obi > windu 

Im not talking about power level


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

they were good teachers and had compassion and empathy


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

they were also better and more interesting characters then windu


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 20, 2016)

well i don't know where you're getting all that good teacher stuff from considering obi wan's colossal failure with anakin

but yes, even qui gon "he's always drinking" gin, who did not really have a character, had more of a character than windu


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

nah there is no failure from Obi-Wan


Anakin just went full retard and Sidious manipulation too stronk


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)




----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 20, 2016)

do ya'll think there'll be an obi wan movie?

what if rey is his granddaughter? would they make a movie showing satine during his padawan days? i would love to see that but at the same time they'd need to hire a younger actor and it's ewan mcgregor whom i long to see


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 20, 2016)

Ben did a better job with Luke, but he had better clay to work with there.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Obi-Wan himself admitted that he failed as a teacher to Anakin. It was one of the series' main themes.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

well of course a good man like Obi-Wan blames himself

doesnt mean its so


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Homie, the entire point was that the entire Jedi Order--including Obi-Wan--were at fault for the creation of Vader; Obi-Wan was never an appropriate choice to mentor Anakin to begin with.

But 'aight, man.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

lil orphan ani never should have become a jedi; kid was a mass murderer before he even got out of his teens.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

> the entire Jedi Order were at fault


I wouldnt blame them for Vader, that was all Anakin and Sidious

but they were too dogmatic (is that the word ? ) and refused to change in 1000+ years





> --including Obi-Wan--


nope 





> But 'aight, man


s'all good man


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

They all contributed to the perfect conditions and atmosphere for Anakin to be converted by Palpatine. Obi-Wan included. 

Sorry, but it's true.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 20, 2016)

There was no appropriate choice to mentor anakin, the Jedi normally kidnap kids at age 0 or w/e and Anakin was nine 

Whether or not Obi Wan is a failure of a mentor depends on whether u watched any of the clone wars cartoon imo, from the movies alone you don't get a sense of anything outside of their failures, but the clone wars, being that they focus on the more mundane adventures of the two, don't portray it nearly so harshly.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

I don't tend to watch them, but I appreciate how the cartoons paint the two as closer friends. Still, if they don't also show how Obi-Wan was an enabler for Anakin's downfall, I suspect they miss the point.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

its like you are Anakins/Vaders lawyer in court, Stunna


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I don't tend to watch them, but I appreciate how the cartoons paint the two as closer friends. Still, if they don't also show how Obi-Wan was an enabler for Anakin's downfall, I suspect they miss the point.



Obi-wan didn't enable shit, the problem was that Anakin just didn't believe in the bullshit the order was peddling in his face

you could have made his mentor yoda and he still would have fallen


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

well Yoda DID pretty much tell him to suck up his loved ones death and fuck off


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Nighty said:


> Obi-wan didn't enable shit, the problem was that Anakin just didn't believe in the bullshit the order was peddling in his face
> 
> you could have made his mentor yoda and he still would have fallen


I didn't say Obi-Wan was the only enabler, or the only one who would have been an enabler; I said he was _an_ enabler. Which he was.


----------



## sworder (Jan 20, 2016)

I think her point is that Obiwan being an enabler is irrelevant. Even if he wasn't, Anakin would have fallen anyway. That is literally the entire point, "prophecy of the chosen one"

It didn't matter what they did


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

at that point, you're arguing what it means to "bring balance to the Force", which is irrelevant to my original point. I mean, I'd argue that Anakin's fall didn't have to happen, but again, my original point didn't pertain to that.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna, could you explain how Obi Wan acted as an enabler for Anakin's downfall?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

From the moment the two met in TPM, Obi-Wan saw Anakin as a burden, and agreed with the Council that he should have been left on Tatooine. The only reason he begrudgingly accepted Anakin was because he wanted to honor the wishes of his late master, Qui-Gon; not because he personally believed in the boy.

We see over the course of their relationship in AotC and RotS that most of their time is spent arguing because Obi-Wan doesn't trust Anakin because he subscribes to the same mentality that the rest of the Order does: that Anakin cannot be trusted because of his perfectly natural and understandable emotions (such as wanting love and fearing the loss of his loved ones.) Because Obi-Wan failed to make himself a figure that Anakin could wholly rely upon for emotional support, and Qui-Gon was apparently the only Jedi who he could have done so, he turned to the only paternal figure left: Palpatine.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 20, 2016)

1) I wouldn't call that enabling. The word points towards Obi Wan behaving in a way that encourages the bad behaviour that lead to Anakin's downfall. His reluctance to train Anakin and arguments with Anakin can hardly be construed as enabling Anakin's possessiveness, fear and inability to let go.

2) Your final sentence is incorrect. Obi Wan was actually a figure Anakin could rely, which is why Sidious separated them. 

You have weird outlook on what it is to enable someone and on top of that you have reached your conclusion by relying on inaccurate claims.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Gunners said:


> 1) I wouldn't call that enabling. The word points towards Obi Wan behaving in a way that encourages the bad behaviour that lead to Anakin's downfall. His reluctance to train Anakin and arguments with Anakin can hardly be construed as enabling Anakin's possessiveness, fear and inability to let go.


An enabler is someone who makes it easier for someone to pursue their self-destructive habits.

Obi-Wan enabled Anakin's bad traits by contributing to a lifestyle that intensified them, and prevented Anakin from getting the help he needed.



> 2) Your final sentence is incorrect. Obi Wan was actually a figure Anakin could rely, which is why Sidious separated them.


That's the movie's logic contradicting itself, not me being incorrect. Anakin is constantly hiding things from Obi-Wan and talking about how his master doesn't trust and holds him back. What the movie _shows_ us supersedes what it _tells_ us.



> You have weird outlook on what it is to enable someone and on top of that you have reached your conclusion by relying on inaccurate claims.


Inaccurate claim_s_? You only pointed out one, and I don't agree that it's inaccurate.


----------



## Wan (Jan 20, 2016)

I do think the Jedi contributed to Anakin's instability by preventing contact with Shmi. Even if Shmi still died the way she did, if Anakin had kept contact with her I don't think it would mess him up so much. Not sure how much control Obi-wan had over that though, since it was a general Jedi policy.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Yeah, I'm not saying Obi-Wan could have single-handily stopped Anakin from falling. I'm just saying he accidentally played his part in making things worse.


----------



## sworder (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna said:


> at that point, you're arguing what it means to "bring balance to the Force", which is irrelevant to my original point. I mean, I'd argue that Anakin's fall didn't have to happen, but again, my original point didn't pertain to that.



We already know what it means to bring balance to the Force because it already happened, why would that be up for debate?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

people argue whether bringing balance meant the destruction of the Sith or the destruction of both the Sith and the former Jedi Order


----------



## sworder (Jan 20, 2016)

Well in my opinion the movies make it pretty clear it is the latter, but I suppose people argue over everything


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

And I agree. I just don't think Anakin becoming a Sith Lord and exterminating them was the only way it _had_ to happen.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 20, 2016)

tfw luke brought imbalance to the force by reconstructing a jedi school

worst skywalker confirmed


----------



## sworder (Jan 20, 2016)

Nighty said:


> tfw luke brought imbalance to the force by reconstructing a jedi school
> 
> worst skywalker confirmed



tfw Kylo Ren killed them all and is bringing balance to the force again like Darth Vader did

watch yourself Snoke, you're next


----------



## All The Good Names Are Taken (Jan 20, 2016)

Itachi Solo


----------



## Bender (Jan 20, 2016)

Anakin being corrupted was bound to happen one way or the other. The schmuck had too strong attachment to earthly desires like love for Padme and his mother. Jedi are the equivalent of monks and he fucked up by prioritizing Padme and his mother. Rather than keep information like his relationship with Padme secret he could've confided in Obi-Wan (who made it clear he was going to fulfill Qui-Gonn Jin's last wish and train Anakin thus going against the council).  

Shit, the Jedi should've seen something was unhinged about Anakin when he made this little drama queen display:

[YOUTUBE]sufkBRdROr4[/YOUTUBE]

It's hard to believe that a friend like that can be considered an adult and think about being a father.


----------



## Gunners (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna said:
			
		

> An enabler is someone who makes it easier for someone to pursue their self-destructive habits.
> 
> Obi-Wan enabled Anakin's bad traits by contributing to a lifestyle that intensified them, and prevented Anakin from getting the help he needed.


By your definition, would you call a home owner an enabler if they failed to lock their door and made it easier for a thief to break into their home? 

The definition of enabler is someone who encourages or enables (makes it possible) someone's else's self-destructive behaviour. It is not enough to inadvertently make someone's destructive behaviour easier; you would have to show their actions made it possible for the individual to go off the rails or that their actions encouraged the behaviour. 

I don't think Obi Wan made it possible for Anakin to go off the rails. He played a role in training him but he was a powerful force sensitive and it is likely that someone of note would have found him. I don't think his actions encouraged Anakin to go off the rails either. 

That said, I agree that Obi Wan's oversight contributed towards the turmoil Anakin experienced. I do feel that the Jedi's rigid beliefs prevented him from getting the counsel he needed. I don't think their hypocrisy helped matters either. 



> That's the movie's logic contradicting itself, not me being incorrect. Anakin is constantly hiding things from Obi-Wan and talking about how his master doesn't trust and holds him back. What the movie shows us supersedes what it tells us.


I misread your previous post. I don't disagree with the argument that Obi-Wan failed to make himself a figure that Anakin could wholly rely; however, it is incorrect to label someone an enabler because of their inability to completely connect with an individual. 

His relationship with Obi-Wan did not enable his descent into darkness. It did the opposite as he was one of the few individuals with a chance of getting through to him. You have argued that what was shown in the films supersedes what was said in the films, but that looks like a case of you cherry picking what you want to acknowledge. The fact that Anakin did not reveal all of his issues to Obi-Wan does not mean the latter would have been unable to convince him to stay on the straight and narrow.

I also would not put a lot of stock in his complaints about Obi-Wan holding back; the comments were made when he was frustrated and frightened. He obviously harboured those feelings on some level, but you're not going to get the complete picture when taking the words of a person in an irrational state. 

Whilst those things were said, he also said that Obi-Wan was the closest person to a father he had and he was prepared to die trying to save him. 

When looking at the moment he snapped, it makes sense that Obi-Wan presence would have prevented him from going over the edge. He was already close to doing the right thing but was ultimately pushed over the edge by Palpatine's beguiling nature and Mace Windu's hypocrisy. That doesn't excuse his reaction, but it is worth noting that Obi-Wan would have been able to help Anakin process his emotions and thoughts so far as letting him know that Palpatine's words are not to be trusted. 
______
Anyway, the core of what you're saying is actually presented in the series. You see the resentment develop with regards to Anakin having to keep his marriage to Padme a secret, and with regards to Obi-Wans feelings for Satine. There's also the resentment he felt towards Obi-Wan faking his death and deceiving him. Throughout the series you see their friendship, but you also see seeds of resentment planted through Obi-Wan's inability to properly connect with Anakin.

Side note: 
[youtube]nOj6R4Yjkqk[/youtube]
Mace, too proud to say ''Sorry, I fucked up."


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Bender said:


> Anakin being corrupted was bound to happen one way or the other. The schmuck had too strong attachment to earthly desires like love for Padme and his mother. Jedi are the equivalent of monks and he fucked up by prioritizing Padme and his mother.


Uh... the entire point was that the _Jedi_ were wrong, not Anakin. He wasn't wrong for having an attachment to his mother and Padme; the Jedi were wrong for demonizing these feelings and making Anakin repress them. Which wasn't healthy. At all.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

the Jedi weren't wrong, Anakin simply wasn't cut out to be one...

the Jedi don't try to repress emotion, they seek to let go of them completely. Repression, if anything, empowers emotion.

Ani too dumb to know the difference.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 20, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> the Jedi weren't wrong, Anakin simply wasn't cut out to be one...
> 
> the Jedi don't try to repress emotion, they seek to let go of them completely. Repression, if anything, empowers emotion.
> 
> Ani too dumb to know the difference.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

edit: Luc p much summarizes it


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

the order functioned fine for 1000 years until Anakin and Sidious rolled along


but noooo its the EVIL JEDI who were at fault


Stunner channeling his inner Christensen


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 20, 2016)

right..wrong

The jedi seemed well adjusted and content with how things were run.  I agree with RB that Annie simply wasn't cut to be one. But that's my perception not the "official" one.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> the order functioned fine for 1000 years until Anakin and Sidious rolled along
> 
> 
> but noooo its the EVIL JEDI who were at fault
> ...



from his point of view the jedi are evil!!!!


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

"this is how we've always done things, so that means it's right"


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> the order functioned fine for 1000 years until Anakin and Sidious rolled along
> 
> 
> but noooo its the EVIL JEDI who were at fault
> ...



flutter channeling his inner & outer idiot


----------



## Gunners (Jan 20, 2016)

I think indoctrinating people, from their developmental stage, to a rigid set of rules, whilst letting them know they will be kicked to the curb for wavering, is wrong and cruel. 

I don't think their rigid ideology would be a problem if they let their followers know there is more to life than being a Jedi, but that didn't seem to be the case.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna said:


> "this is how we've always done things, so that means it's right"



_"this is how we've always done things and its been pretty good; stable Jedi, peace across the galaxy...but wait! Some snot nosed brat wants (do we even know what he wants?) change...so, yeah, let's burn this friend down!"_


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Yeah, I'm not saying Obi-Wan could have single-handily stopped Anakin from falling. I'm just saying he accidentally played his part in making things worse.



semantics but being responsible for =/= enabling

enabling is like a specific kind of responsible


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

sworder said:


> tfw Kylo Ren killed them all and is bringing balance to the force again like Darth Vader did
> 
> watch yourself Snoke, you're next



finishing what he started 

Also the Jedi _were_ wrong. That was the entire point.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

I mean, if he wasn't happy as a Jedi he couldve gone into the military, politics or any number of other things. No one was keeping him there. You can literally retire from being a Jedi with no repercussions.

but lil orphan Ani wants to be a Jedi master and since he didn't get his way he went and killed EVERYBODY.


Damn those Jedi!


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 20, 2016)

Stunna said:


> "this is how we've always done things, so that means it's right"



I'm not discrediting their mistakes, I'm saying if Annie didn't join their ranks, maybe they would have had a couple more millennia of prosperity. Yes, it was a flawed practice, but no one else seemed to have had a problem with it..


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

I dunno... I suspect you've gotta be either dumb or deranged to not see how the Jedi Order's methods were fucked up, regardless of how long they worked out for. If they didn't have such dumb dogma, they wouldn't have been exterminated.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

can some explain what they were _wrong_ about exactly ?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> can some explain what they were _wrong_ about exactly ?


"if you love your mom, you're gonna turn into a serial killer"


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

idk, i wouldnt call dogma that worked for them for a 1000 years and seemed to work for all padawans/knights/masters except Anakin flat out wrong

but thats just me


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> can some explain what they were _wrong_ about exactly ?



They didn't help Anakin because they didn't wanna talk about feelings. They let a Sith Lord gain control of the Senate and turn the Republic into the Empire. They fucked up. If Vader wasn't hunting them down they probably still would've gone into hiding out of shame


----------



## Stunna (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> idk, i wouldnt call dogma that worked for them for a 1000 years and seemed to work for all padawans/knights/masters except Anakin flat out wrong
> 
> but thats just me


fyi they lasted for longer than 1000 years

anyway, just because it works doesn't mean it's right


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

Also, outside the Jedi being massacred, was the galaxy really so bad under the Empire?


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

Weiss said:


> can some explain what they were _wrong_ about exactly ?



oh, i think it's pretty clear were they fucked up.

I mean, it doesn't take a psych degree to see that Ani is one deranged little kid.


but if anything, it was the "loose" Jedi who was to blame. The council wasn't going to train anakin cuz they sensed he was a nutter but Quigon had a tantrum and as a result everything went to shit.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Also, outside the Jedi being massacred, was the galaxy really so bad under the Empire?



only if you're an alien.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

> They let a Sith Lord gain control of the Senate and turn the Republic into the Empire


well said Lord clouded their pre-cog because he was fucking OP and a master player

and they didnt let him turn it into an empire, they were already too dead by then to stop him


and the first is on Anakin 

not everyone who loses someone or might lose some1 go and slaughter younglings



anyway, I understand what you guys mean, its good to hear other PoVs


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

Anakin killing younglings was just bad writing imo. But it happened so whatevz


----------



## RAGING BONER (Jan 20, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Anakin killing younglings was just bad writing imo. But it happened so whatevz



bad writing was Anakin killing sand people babies, telling Padamamey and her being cool with that shit.

_"It's all ObiWans fault."_

she shoulda bitch slapped that pussy right then and there.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 20, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Also, outside the Jedi being massacred, was the galaxy really so bad under the Empire?



not if you're into tyranny


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> bad writing was Anakin killing sand people babies, telling Padamamey and her being cool with that shit.
> 
> _"It's all ObiWans fault."_
> 
> she shoulda bitch slapped that pussy right then and there.



bad writing was 1-3 if we're being honest 



~Gesy~ said:


> not if you're into tyranny



Did we ever really see any of that tyranny tho

you know, outside of Alderan


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

Leia kept pushing


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 20, 2016)

lmao they built a planet sized superweapon to blowup whoever disagreed with them.

I'm..quite sure the galaxy is better off without them.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 20, 2016)

Even the US has nukes


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 20, 2016)

I see what you're doing

I only walk into troll traps because I feel like it.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 20, 2016)

> *Even* the US


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 20, 2016)

VIII's been delayed till December


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 20, 2016)

In regards to the above:

SHEEV DID NOTHING WRONG!

Bunch of asshole terrorists blew up a military base, killing thousands if not millions, wrecked infrastructure throughout the galaxy, teamed up with man-eating teddy bears, and went along with "heroes" who among their criminal lot included some militant religious extremist that claimed he could talk to ghosts and was probably rebelling against his perfectly respectable father like the little punk he was.



Gilgamesh said:


> VIII's been delayed till December



I don't really mind given that they need all the time they can get to make sure it comes out decent (at the very least) while further differentiating the new movies from the previous six (in addition to the shorter intervals between episodes, lack of Fox fanfare, and lack of involvement from George Lucas).


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 21, 2016)

I'll never forgive Anakin for probably killing Ahsoka though


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 21, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> only if you're an alien.



Isn't that part of the discarded EU stuff? I mean, the First Order is essentially a continuation of the Empire and they're led by a weird alien dude.


----------



## Bender (Jan 23, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> I'll never forgive Anakin for probably killing Ahsoka though



The slaughtering of the younglings is Anakin's biggest offense for me. 

"From my POV the jedi are evil!"

(40-something minutes ago audience sees Anakin singlehandedly killing a bunch of younglings.)

Stupid evil at its finest.


----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 23, 2016)

That was offscreen doe. But yeah


----------



## Bender (Jan 24, 2016)

@blazing

You'd want to see kids killed on-screen? 



You


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 24, 2016)




----------



## BlazingInferno (Jan 24, 2016)

Bender said:


> @blazing
> 
> You'd want to see kids killed on-screen?
> 
> ...



Eh, didn't say that


----------



## Bender (Jan 24, 2016)

BlazingInferno said:


> Eh, didn't say that



It kinda implying that. 

The only one who need to remember seeing Anakin kill the younglings is Obi-Wan. 


Speaking of which this has prompted me to show this video

[YOUTUBE]CQBZGlkVzl0[/YOUTUBE]

Burn in space hell Anakin.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 24, 2016)

Vader wasn't the one who blew up the planet.


----------



## Bender (Jan 24, 2016)

@Stunna

He ordered it. 

He iust as responsible.


----------



## Thespacelord (Jan 24, 2016)

Tarkin ordered it. Vader just stood there


----------



## Stunna (Jan 24, 2016)

Vader was accountable by proxy, but my point was that he didn't do it. :byakuya


----------



## Bender (Jan 24, 2016)

@Stunna

Leia pointing out how he associated with empire that did it in video jar jar.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 24, 2016)

"_You_ ... blew up my planet"

watch your own video before you call someone Jar Jar


----------



## Stunna (Jan 24, 2016)

Like, you even acknowledged the "possibility" that you're wrong, which is why you essentially said "but, uh, he's still guilty anyway for torturing people!"

sitcho ass down


----------



## Bender (Jan 24, 2016)

@Stunna

Because its funny! Because I love videos that rip on Star Wars Revenge of the sith and prequels.

How it should have ended

dorkly

those the motherfuckers with wit equal to Robot Chicken SW satire.


----------



## Bender (Jan 24, 2016)

Most dad's just beat the shit out of their daughters boyfriend or have a awkward dinner like this:

[YOUTUBE]Cuebj4kVOy4[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 24, 2016)

The discussion of whether or not Vader was responsible for atrocities makes me wonder what would have happened if Kylo had actually "came back to the light side" and came home with Han. It'd be like "Mother, father, I'm back." "Oh, good. Now you can stand trial for all the Jedi padawans and other innocent people you murdered in cold blood."


----------



## Bender (Jan 25, 2016)

when I was at theater with dad he told me wouldn't have been ablel to shoot at Kylo Ren with his blaste even though I pointed out how he had opportunity to after he impaled him.

Would you guys be able to kill your own child had he just impaled you or shot you point blank like Kylo Ren?


----------



## Thespacelord (Jan 25, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> The discussion of whether or not Vader was responsible for atrocities makes me wonder what would have happened if Kylo had actually "came back to the light side" and came home with Han. It'd be like "Mother, father, I'm back." "Oh, good. Now you can stand trial for all the Jedi padawans and other innocent people you murdered in cold blood."



Link removed


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 25, 2016)

Vader was the mascot for Space Nazis. He was a pretty turrible dude


----------



## Jeff (Jan 25, 2016)

Bender said:


> when I was at theater with dad he told me wouldn't have been ablel to shoot at Kylo Ren with his blaste even though I pointed out how he had opportunity to after he impaled him.
> 
> Would you guys be able to kill your own child had he just impaled you or shot you point blank like Kylo Ren?



I would, because I would not blame myself for my child being a little bitch and having "too much Vader in him" which I'm pretty sure is code for Hayden Christensen harassing Ben Solo in his sleep with stories of how he had starring roles once.

Han and Leia blamed themselves for Ben's fall to the dark side and for essentially abandoning him, which is why I'm pretty sure Han knew what he was doing was risky from the beginning and why he chose to touch the face of his son before dying.  I think Han died feeling as though he failed Ben, not that Ben failed him.  So although I think Han could have easily mustered the strength to own Ben, or even drag his ass down with him the motivation or vendetta is not there.

The fact that Chewie's bowcaster suddenly got nerfed and only nicked Kylo Ren and didn't blow him clear of the bridge is beyond me, though.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 25, 2016)

Jeff said:


> I would, because I would not blame myself for my child being a little bitch and having "too much Vader in him" which I'm pretty sure is code for Hayden Christensen harassing Ben Solo in his sleep with stories of how he had starring roles once.
> 
> Han and Leia blamed themselves for Ben's fall to the dark side and for essentially abandoning him, which is why I'm pretty sure Han knew what he was doing was risky from the beginning and why he chose to touch the face of his son before dying.  I think Han died feeling as though he failed Ben, not that Ben failed him.  So although I think Han could have easily mustered the strength to own Ben, or even drag his ass down with him the motivation or vendetta is not there.
> 
> The fact that Chewie's bowcaster suddenly got nerfed and only nicked Kylo Ren and didn't blow him clear of the bridge is beyond me, though.



edgy


----------



## The World (Jan 25, 2016)

>naming their kid after obi wan when han and leia barely knew him

>naming him after Luke's kid in the EU

fuck u Jar Jar Abrams


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 25, 2016)

it's not like ben is an uncommon name tho

might have just been coincidence or something attributed after the fact like "oh and it was also that old guy that luke really admires, sure why not"

especially if ur searching for something that sounds vaguely similar to han


----------



## The World (Jan 25, 2016)

how many ben's u know in the star wars universe nighty

count on one hand


----------



## The World (Jan 25, 2016)

AND IT WAS LUKE'S KID WHO WAS SUPPOSE TO BE BEN

FUCK U JAR JAR


----------



## Stunna (Jan 25, 2016)

warudo wildin for no reason

people name their kids after historical heroes that they personally didn't know literally all the time


----------



## Suigetsu (Jan 25, 2016)

The World said:


> >naming their kid after obi wan when han and leia barely knew him
> 
> >naming him after Luke's kid in the EU
> 
> fuck u Jar Jar Abrams



Glad I am not the only one who noticed this.
What a clusterfuck Jar Jar left didnt he?

This is why I was afraid that he would open the new triology, cause I knew everything else would have to dance to his tune. And his is one of plagiarism.

I mean ffs the entire Ren in Jakku sequence its a blatant copy of Nausica of the valley of the wind.


----------



## Stunna (Jan 25, 2016)

Hyperbole OP

Star Wars is _literally _built on taking imagery from other pieces of cinema and reskinning them with a sci-fantasy coat.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 25, 2016)

The World said:


> AND IT WAS LUKE'S KID WHO WAS SUPPOSE TO BE BEN
> 
> FUCK U JAR JAR



who cares

stop being autistic


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 25, 2016)

Ben is a good name for a son in the Skywalker line

I approve


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 25, 2016)

they should've called him slagathor


----------



## Bender (Jan 25, 2016)

Ben is an awesome name for a Skywalker. Shit like him more than EU Ben.


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Jan 25, 2016)

> *BOX OFFICE: STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Is Now Closing In On $2 Billion Worldwide*
> 
> t's now become clear that Star Wars: The Force Awakens isn't going to beat Avatar to become the highest grossing movie of all-time, but does it stand a chance of topping Titanic? That's still not clear at this stage, but the J.J. Abrams helmed release has still done something no one ever thought it would be closing in on $2 billion at the worldwide box office.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bender (Jan 25, 2016)

@Blazing

He's our messgae board paper boy. 

Would you rather be posting the articles? lmao


@Jeff

Huh, interesting.

I'm compassionate to the point of indifference to worth of my own life. If I was able to I'd let you kill me rather than you killing me. That's how much I hate the idea of killing someone I have an attachment to. 

What about the rest of you? If you were Han Solo would you kill Kylo Ren if you had the chance?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 25, 2016)

probably not


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 25, 2016)

> but the J.J. Abrams helmed release has still done something no one ever thought it would



lol?


----------



## Bender (Jan 25, 2016)

Because being flesh and blood right? Just like my dad reasoned he wouldn't kill him either.


----------



## Jeff (Jan 25, 2016)

Bender said:


> ]
> @Jeff
> 
> Huh, interesting.
> ...



My thoughts at the moment when he runs me through with his lightsaber would be that if he has the capacity to kill me in cold blood then he has the capacity to kill Leia in cold blood and many other people who I care about.  Redemption time is over for him


----------



## Stunna (Jan 25, 2016)

not because he'd be my flesh and blood; because he'd be my son


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 25, 2016)

You can always make another


----------



## Bender (Jan 25, 2016)

~Gesy~

Thst is if you  don't be shooting blanks. 


@Jeff

I'd probably be catatonic. Not every person would dream of the nightmarish possibility of being killed by their child.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 26, 2016)

what is everyones top 3 music tracks from the entire SW saga ?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]b6uNvQich8g[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

I'M FEELING LIKE A STAR YOU CAN'T STOP MY SHINE

LOVING CLOUD CITY MY HEADS IN THE SKY


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

also reminder that in all kinetic dance videos you can see the person playing it in the top left of the screen


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

I'M SO HAPPY NOW THAT THE CARBONITE IS GONE

I'M MOVING ON


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

I'M PICKING UP MY BLASTER PUT IT ON MY SIDE

I'M JUMPING IN MY FALCON WOOKIE AT MY SIDE


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

Link removed

>over an hour

jesus christ George


----------



## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

Weiss said:


> what is everyones top 3 music tracks from the entire SW saga ?



That's tough.  Really, really tough.  I don't think I can narrow it down to top 3, really.  Maybe I can just list my favorite from each movie?

There's "Battle of Endor", from Return of the Jedi. Really fun space battle music.

[YOUTUBE]6vDwqpzSrRU[/YOUTUBE]

The iconic "Binary Sunset" from A New Hope.

[YOUTUBE]_dr3W3QuVCs[/YOUTUBE]

There's "Duel of the Fates" from The Phantom Menace, of course.

"Battle of the Heroes" was the similar sweeping duel music in Revenge of the Sith, but I actually appreciate "Anakin's Betrayal" the most.  It really highlighted the tragedy of the fall of the Jedi.

[YOUTUBE]JRt-dieB3rs[/YOUTUBE]

Attack of the Clones had...er...nothing all that notable.  The music that played when Obi-wan landed on Kamino was nice though.  Maybe it's just burned into my brain because it was the DVD menu music though.

[YOUTUBE]dZfHkNV4bGk[/YOUTUBE]

My favorite musical _moment_ from The Force Awakens is when Rey pulls the lightsaber to her and a cue from A New Hope's "Burning Homestead" track swells, but the actual full track "The Ways of the Force" didn't blow me away.  There are several good tracks from The Force Awakens, but I think my favorite is at the very end, "The Jedi Steps".

[YOUTUBE]cUBUlKgsNK8[/YOUTUBE]

But my all-time favorite Star Wars track has to be "Yoda and the Force" from The Empire Strikes Back.

[YOUTUBE]NRfYpqgCOfA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

tbf I skimmed the video and it's inflated with non lightsaber duel stuff that happens in and around the duel itself

all up it's about 2:1 prequelsriginal in this format


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Nighty said:


> Link removed
> 
> >over an hour
> 
> jesus christ George



a solid 40+ minutes of that is prequels

lol


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> a solid 40+ minutes of that is prequels
> 
> lol



note also that there's three distinct "duels" in the OT, one for each movie

the prequels meanwhile has ~10 (depending on how you define it)


----------



## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

George Lucas forgot that less is more


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

Link removed

there are multiple versions of this concept

for what purpose?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 26, 2016)

Duel of Fates would definitely be in my top3 

Imperial March _probably_


not sure about the third, would have to relisten to some first


----------



## Wan (Jan 26, 2016)

Yeah.  My actual top 3, "If I was stranded on a desert island, which Star Wars tracks would I want" are

1.  Yoda and the Force
2.  The Imperial March
3.  Duel of the Fates


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Nighty said:


> Link removed
> 
> there are multiple versions of this concept
> 
> for what purpose?



the opening text crawl spells "slowly" as "slowley"

a labour of love

edit:

oh this is a JOKE

ok thank god, there's no way it can be serious when it spells "sidious" as "sifodias"


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)




----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> ok thank god, there's no way it can be serious when it spells "sidious" as "sifodias"



tfw I can't tell if this is a double meme reach around or not


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Nighty said:


> tfw I can't tell if this is a double meme reach around or not



you want alpha for reacharounds m8


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> you want alpha for reacharounds m8



just in case


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

srs tho look at that text crawl 

it really is awful


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

I didn't actually watch the text crawl of that one

I moved on to A PHANTOM EDIT which was two hours shorter

I mean technically I didn't watch the text crawl of a phantom edit either but 

a phantom edit was weird because it was obviously based in the viewer have already seen the prequels 

for instance, the first scene is a highly edited version of the Maul vs Obi/Qui gon fight at the end of phantom menace, but it still ends on the plot hook of Obi Wan having to train "the boy" because he's the chosen one

and the very next scene is 10 years later on coruscant with obi and ani in the elevator going up to see padme

the audience has no idea who literally any of these characters are or how they know each other, especially after it's made clear that it's been ten years since ani saw padme

this seems like a fundamental failing for a fan edit intended to enable easier viewing and understanding of the prequels without having to actually watch them. To understand a phantom edit you need to have seen the prequels because only then can you go "oh yeah this bits gone but I know how we got from A to B"


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I didn't actually watch the text crawl of that one
> 
> I moved on to A PHANTOM EDIT which was two hours shorter
> 
> ...


well thanks now i don't have to watch a phantom edit


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

I didn't watch the whole thing obviously in case that wasn't clear

but the start of it didn't engender hope

I don't think any of these would be watchable outside of a purely "wow who would make a change like this?" sense


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Nighty said:


> I didn't watch the whole thing obviously in case that wasn't clear
> 
> but the start of it didn't engender hope
> 
> I don't think any of these would be watchable outside of a purely "wow who would make a change like this?" sense


well yeah cuz they're all edited together out of shitty material

these are the equivalent of trying to make a great meal out of literal garbage. it ain't gon' work. people talk about ANH being "saved in editing" but that was probably from like many, many hours of footage. that's a lot different to editing an already-edited (poorly-edited) movie


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

tru

if someone had all the unedited footage ever filmed could they save the prequels?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

Nighty said:


> tru
> 
> if someone had all the unedited footage ever filmed could they save the prequels?



probably not, because considering the flat direction style, the almost uniformly poor performances, the awful script, and the awful cinematography, you'd still be working with shoddy material

but you could make them more watchable, at least, by cutting out the bloat and the worst nonessential subplots/scenes


----------



## Jeff (Jan 26, 2016)

Weiss said:


> what is everyones top 3 music tracks from the entire SW saga ?



I've been re-listening and re-listening to all 6 soundtracks a lot lately and I'd say my favorite tracks are:

1. *The Battle of Yavin*, specifically the third part of it "*Use the Force*" (6:00 till the end) (Episode IV) 

Darth Vader "I have you now", Han Solo sweeping in for the win...the whole Obi-Wan tells Luke to use the Force and Luke deactivates his targeting computer...followed by the trumpets when he does and the heavy drums leading up the final seconds when he fires the proton torpedoes...I think that easily is my favorite moment from the entire Star Wars Anthology.  The fact it also features Binary Sunset in it as well made it an instant favorite.  I love that fucking theme to death.

[YOUTUBE]aHQrcyerVQQ[/YOUTUBE]

2. *Rey's Theme* (Episode VII)

[YOUTUBE]nTmP0iBQUkA[/YOUTUBE]

There's something about it that I love.  I'm not sure what it is, but it was the only real track from VII that stuck with me.  When they played it as the Falcon entered Takodana for the first time it was just...intense chills. It's a catchy theme fitting of Rey.  I think it's far better than any other one except:

3. *Across the Stars* (Episode II)

[YOUTUBE]9nk_WHHTQtY[/YOUTUBE]

I'm a sucker for the mellower themes and although I wasn't a huge fan of Episode II, it likely was the main theme of Star Wars that I grew up listening to and playing those Clone Wars games to. The harp at the end was haunting as fuck.  First time I heard the song I almost shit my pants.  I attempted to learn how to play it on violin.

Honorable Mentions would probably be *The Droid Invasion* (Episode I), *March of the Resistance* (Episode VII), and *Tales of a Jedi Knight/Learn about the Force* (Episode IV).


----------



## The World (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> who cares
> 
> stop being autistic



u who nitpick everything can't see the idiocy in this?

give me a break


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

The World said:


> u who nitpick everything can't see the idiocy in this?
> 
> give me a break



i said stop, not keep it up


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 26, 2016)

Weiss said:


> what is everyones top 3 music tracks from the entire SW saga ?



One thing the prequels did have was great music. Duel of the Fates and Across the Stars are top 2 for me. 3 could be a number of things from the OT


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jan 26, 2016)

The World said:


> AND IT WAS LUKE'S KID WHO WAS SUPPOSE TO BE BEN
> 
> FUCK U JAR JAR



Freakin' Expanded Universe Purist...

It would not have been possible to do a Sequel trilogy with the glut of Expanded Universe materials that went decades after the Battle of Endor.  The Expanded Universe still exists, but now we have a fresh start with a new universe.  

What is so wrong with Leia and Han's child being named Ben?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 26, 2016)

nothing is wrong with it


old EU is over


----------



## Suigetsu (Jan 26, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Freakin' Expanded Universe Purist...
> 
> It would not have been possible to do a Sequel trilogy with the glut of Expanded Universe materials that went decades after the Battle of Endor.  The Expanded Universe still exists, but now we have a fresh start with a new universe.
> 
> What is so wrong with Leia and Han's child being named Ben?



You have no imagination and no creativity.

It simply makes no sense, why would you name your firstborn son after someone that you barely knew? Specially when they where supposed to bet wins.
Looking at Han and Leia you would think that they would have more kids.

And yes, Disney could definitely made their own version of the expanded universe by using the already existing characters, just changing their stories a bit. But the problem is that Jay Jay hackams its completely INCAPABLE of doing something original so he had to copy paste directly like he always does.

Which then again defeats completely the point of having episodes doesnt it?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 26, 2016)

omg I already pointed out the fact that countless people name their kids after historical heroes they never personally knew _all the time_


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 26, 2016)

stunna was named after tyler durden

tru fax


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jan 26, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> *You have no imagination and no creativity.*
> 
> It simply makes no sense, why would you name your firstborn son after someone that you barely knew? *Specially when they where supposed to bet wins.*
> 
> Looking at Han and Leia you would think that they would have more kids.



Well, since you can't make sense of why Han and Leia would only have one child and name him after Ben Kenobi, I suppose the first bold applies to you too.

Second of all, "Supposed to be twins"?

*Suigetsu*, that may have been how it was in the Expanded Universe, but the new Canon is a clean slate.  It is a new story, a new beginning.  Most of the people who would have gone to see "The Force Awakens" would not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Expanded Universe.  By beginning anew, the Sequel Trilogies are made far more accessible to a new generation of movie-goers and to Star Wars fans in general.

Kylo Ren is his own character as much as Jacen and Jaina Solo were their own characters.  I really do not see what the issue is supposed to be 



> And yes, Disney could definitely made their own version of the expanded universe by using the already existing characters, just changing their stories a bit. But the problem is that Jay Jay hackams its completely INCAPABLE of doing something original so he had to copy paste directly like he always does.
> 
> Which then again defeats completely the point of having episodes doesnt it?



The Star Wars films are directed with a ring-composition style of story-telling in mind.  As a result, symmetry and parallels between the episodes are intended, and it is not evidence of a "lack of originality". 

You could not achieve something like that simply by taking from the Expanded Universe stories, much less simply copying and pasting characters and 'tweaking' stories already created.

Honestly, I just don't get people like you.  The Expanded Universe is still there; it has not been wiped from the face of reality, yet you are still making unjustified complaints, complaints which seem to veer towards the grievance that the original EU did not make it into the new Star Wars film.

What would have satisfied you, hm?


----------



## Suigetsu (Jan 26, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Well, since you can't make sense of why Han and Leia would only have one child and name him after Ben Kenobi, I suppose the first bold applies to you too.


 Nope because it would come as forced and silly. While being Luke's would had felt natural.

Second of all, "Supposed to be twins"?


Catalyst75 said:


> *Suigetsu*, that may have been how it was in the Expanded Universe, but the new Canon is a clean slate.


Basically Fan-fiction. Something that is not recognized or approved by the original author is nothing but published fan fiction. For all I care the tolkien estate could be bought by someone and that someone could do a Lotr sequel "even if they owned tolkien estate" that stuff would still be a fan fiction cause it has nothing to do with the real author.



Catalyst75 said:


> *It is a new story, a new beginning*.


Not sure if real or sarcasm. Usually when you go forward you make new stuff, you dont make copy paste of a previous episode of the same series. That defeats the whole porpuse of having episodes doesnt it?


Catalyst75 said:


> Most of the people who would have gone to see "The Force Awakens" would not have an encyclopedic knowledge of the Expanded Universe.  By beginning anew, the Sequel Trilogies are made far more accessible to a new generation of movie-goers and to Star Wars fans in general.


Literally TFA its a canibbalization of the expanded universe. Had they just presented a stand alone storie with the characters from the expanded universe but with clean slate as of what will happen to them and what they will do, it would had been the same. Had they followed Lucas story suggestions and instructions it would had been the same.
Except that it would be a new story instead of the copy paste plagiarization that we got.


Catalyst75 said:


> Kylo Ren is his own character as much as Jacen and Jaina Solo were their own characters.  I really do not see what the issue is supposed to be


Dude are you for real? Kylo Ren is a canibalization of Jacen with Ben Skywalker's name made into an edgy linkin part brat to set him apart. How can you call that a stand alone?



Catalyst75 said:


> The Star Wars films are directed with a ring-composition style of story-telling in mind.  As a result, symmetry and parallels between the episodes are intended, and it is not evidence of a "lack of originality".


One thing is poetry of parallel and another thing is simply copy paste the entire movie dude. You have no excuses here, just grasping at straws here. Jar jar blantantly copied lucas's a new hope and called it original and "to move forward you have to go back" bullshit. The movie felt like one of those new sci-films without the aesthetic of the starwars films which is a bit slow and simply in camera movement and takes inspiration from kurosawa.


> You could not achieve something like that simply by taking from the Expanded Universe stories, much less simply copying and pasting characters and 'tweaking' stories already created.


Correct, I would not achieve a plagiarization and copy paste like movie, but something new and fresh. which is what every starwars had, fresh and new locations.
TFA cant be called a starwars movie dude, the aesthetic it's too modern sci-fi, the monsters look generic, and it doesnt have substance at all.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

> Basically Fan-fiction. Something that is not recognized or approved by the original author is nothing but published fan fiction. For all I care the tolkien estate could be bought by someone and that someone could do a Lotr sequel "even if they owned tolkien estate" that stuff would still be a fan fiction cause it has nothing to do with the real author.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 26, 2016)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 26, 2016)

Warudo


----------



## Rukia (Jan 26, 2016)

It has only been a month.  But I'm not sure I remember anything about The Force Awakens.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 26, 2016)

we already know that luke named his kid rey


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 26, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> Jar Jar A. for you.
> 
> Who wrote the soundtrack anyways? I cannot even remember a single track and that is worrisome since I am a huge soundtrack geek.



john williams wrote but he's getting old  quality not as good as prequels


----------



## A. Waltz (Jan 26, 2016)

Luke obviously didn't have a SON because if not he would have named him Ben. that was HIS mentor. so i imagine he let leia and han name their kid Ben since Luke never had a son to use that name on.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I hate this excuse so much.



he's been posting it in every sw related thread for the last month

cringe-inducing


----------



## Mider T (Jan 27, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> Luke obviously didn't have a SON because if not he would have named him Ben. that was HIS mentor. so i imagine he let leia and han name their kid Ben since Luke never had a son to use that name on.



That's exactly what Luke named his son in the novels.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 27, 2016)

Really the worst thing about this movie is that it basically made the OT pointless. What did the Rebellion really accomplish? The Empire is still around they just call themselves the First Order now. There still is a Rebellion only this time we call it the Resistance. There is a still a Death Star but this time we call it the Starkiller and its bigger. The Jedi are still gone and forgotten and the dark side still runs the galaxy.


----------



## Jeff (Jan 27, 2016)

I'm inclined to think Luke isn't a JK Rowling-style bitch and could have named his son or daughter anything.

I'm not too exasperated about the whole "Han and Leia named their son Ben" because Luke spent what, 1 more day in total with Obi-Wan and all of a sudden he has a greater correlation to Obi-Wan?  Leia likely grew up with stories about him assuming Bail Organa owned up to his involvement in resisting the Empire.  Leia asked for his help and considering the fact that Luke would have not made it off Tatootine or met Han without Obi-Wan's Jedi mind trick...the whole rescue of Leia can be attributed largely to Obi-Wan.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 27, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> Really the worst thing about this movie is that it basically made the OT pointless. What did the Rebellion really accomplish?



Besides crushing the Empire and freeing a lot of systems, it set in motion events that will become clear by episode 9. 





> The Empire is still around they just call themselves the First Order now.



It's easy to assume that based on the movie, but no. The Empire hasn't been a thing since the Battle of Jakku. The First Order was formed by fanatics who wanted to model themselves after the Empire. They were formed by ragtag die-hards in the outer rim, and only gained any traction because of Snoke's leadership. 




> There still is a Rebellion only this time we call it the Resistance.



Again, not fully accurate. The Resistance is a militia group within the Republic who fight the First Order, because the Republic has an official non-intervention policy regarding said First Order. Or, they did before the Starkiller Base blew up their capital System. I'm sure that'll change now. 



> There is a still a Death Star but this time we call it the Starkiller and its bigger. The Jedi are still gone and forgotten and the dark side still runs the galaxy.




The Starkiller Base thing was kind of derivative, yeah. As for the other part, I think Rey is supposed to be the one to actually bring balance to the Force, as prophecized. 

Also, Snoke really doesn't control the galaxy in any way, shape or form. He is nowhere near as politically powerful as Palpatine was. He's a glorified terrorist leader. The First Order's biggest strength is their advanced tech and their highly loyal and well-trained Stormtroopers. Their fleet is tiny compared to the Imperial fleet they model themselves after. They also have the Knights of Ren, who apparently number around a dozen and who are like a poor man's Vader individually, so they can have "Vader" in more places than the Empire could. I'd say they're about halfway between the power/competence level of the Inquisitors and Vader individually, with Kylo being the most competent one.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jan 27, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> Nope because it would come as forced and silly. While being Luke's would had felt natural.



Han knew Ben Kenobi as well, and Leia was also familiar with Ben.  The fact they chose to name their son after him shows how much Han came to respect Ben as Luke's original teacher.



> Basically Fan-fiction. Something that is not recognized or approved by the original author *Suigetsu* is nothing but published fan fiction. For all I care the tolkien estate could be bought by someone and that someone could do a Lotr sequel "even if they owned tolkien estate" that stuff would still be a fan fiction cause it has nothing to do with the real author.



Fixed.

But George Lucas *has* given "The Force Awakens" his approval.  That is what you do not seem to get.  It seems that you are claiming it is 'fan-fiction' because *you* don't approve.



> Not sure if real or sarcasm. Usually when you go forward you make new stuff, you dont make copy paste of a previous episode of the same series. That defeats the whole porpuse of having episodes doesnt it?
> 
> Literally TFA its a canibbalization of the expanded universe. Had they just presented a stand alone storie with the characters from the expanded universe but with clean slate as of what will happen to them and what they will do, it would had been the same. Had they followed Lucas story suggestions and instructions it would had been the same.
> Except that it would be a new story instead of the copy paste plagiarization that we got.
> ...





_Disney could definitely made their own version of the expanded universe *by using the already existing characters, just changing their stories a bit*
_

That is what you said.  Yet you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to complain about how TFA "cannibalized" the Expanded universe, how it is just a "plagarization".

The Force Awakens has new characters, a new history, a new villain, and a new story arc, *all without laying a finger on the Expanded Universe.*   It also draws parallels to the trilogies that came before it, while still maintaining its own identity.

Claiming Kylo Ren was cannibalized from Jacen Solo, on the other hand, is stretching my disbelief.  Setting aside the fact that I was never an avid reader of the Expanded Universe books and so would not be familiar with Jacen Solo outside of the "Essential Guide to Characters", I at least know enough to say that the claim is bullshit.

I mean, I'm fairly certain you are making the claim based on two shallow points: the fact that Jacen Solo turned to the Dark Side in the "Legacy of the Force" book series, *decades after the character's introduction,* and the simple fact that Kylo Ren and Jacen are both the sons of Leia and Han.  

What about their actual character development?  What about their personalities?  What about their motives?  What about their loyalties?  What about their relationships with those around them?  

Answer me all of this, and then try claiming that Kylo's just a cannibalization.  

NOTE:  The bratty behavior is a universal Skywalker trait.  If there is anyone whom Kylo Ren is most like, try looking at the man *he tried to emulate himself after* pre-Mustafar.



> One thing is poetry of parallel and another thing is simply copy paste the entire movie dude. You have no excuses here, just grasping at straws here. Jar jar blantantly copied lucas's a new hope and called it original and "to move forward you have to go back" bullshit. The movie felt like one of those new sci-films without the aesthetic of the starwars films which is a bit slow and simply in camera movement and takes inspiration from kurosawa.



Really?  



> Before he started The Force Awakens, Abrams watched some movies. No, not those ones, Other ones. He looked at “the confidence” of John Ford Westerns. He took in the “unbelievable scene choreography and composition” of Kurosawa’s High and Low. And he studied “the powerful stillness” of Terrence Malick. “It’s not something I would normally have thought of coming to Star Wars,” he says. The spare visual style of Ford, Kurosawa and Malick points to a key mandate for Abrams’ approach to Episode VII: the distinctive less-is-more quality of the originals.



Abrams _*did*_ draw upon the same choreography and compositions as George Lucas did when filming "The Force Awakens".  As for the rest of the aesthetics, Abrams drew heavily on practical effects in the filming of "The Force Awakens", the same practical effects once used for the Original Trilogy.

And "The Force Awakens" _*is not*_ a copy-and-paste of "A New Hope".  I can name many significant differences between "A New Hope" and "The Force Awakens", while still being able to acknowledge the intended parallels between the films.



> Correct, I would not achieve a plagiarization and copy paste like movie, but something new and fresh. which is what every starwars had, fresh and new locations.
> TFA cant be called a starwars movie dude, the aesthetic it's too modern sci-fi, the monsters look generic, and it doesnt have substance at all.





If "The Force Awakens" was not part of the same ring-composition as the previous six films, then it wouldn't be a Star Wars film.

NOTE: In case you haven't noticed, I'm getting bored of this.  What fulfillment does a man such as yourself get from trying to spoil everyone else's enjoyment of the film?


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Suigetsu is reaching to criticize the movie, and Catalyst is reaching to defend it.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 27, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Besides crushing the Empire and freeing a lot of systems, it set in motion events that will become clear by episode 9.



To be more accurate, it is a case of realism within the Star Wars universe.  Both the Emperor and the Death Stars were not key-stones that you simply pull out and the Galactic Empire falls to pieces.  You still have all the people in positions of power below Palpatine to deal with, and the Death Star was just another space-borne weapon. 

 The Galactic Empire, even if it was weakened significantly, was still the main power in the galaxy before the New Republic won at the Battle of Jakku.  

The First Order, as supplementary material states, was formed from what was left of the Galactic Empire after the armistice.  



> It's easy to assume that based on the movie, but no. The Empire hasn't been a thing since the Battle of Jakku. The First Order was formed by fanatics who wanted to model themselves after the Empire. They were formed by ragtag die-hards in the outer rim, and only gained any traction because of Snoke's leadership.



They still could have mobilized, but it would not have been as successful without Snoke being at the head of the First Order.  That is the thing about empires and ideologies; even if you disband the physical government, the ideologies of said body would still have influence long after it is gone.  



> Again, not fully accurate. The Resistance is a militia group within the Republic who fight the First Order, because the Republic has an official non-intervention policy regarding said First Order. Or, they did before the Starkiller Base blew up their capital System. I'm sure that'll change now.



Exactly.  Many members of the New Republic even thought Leia was war-mongering because she was afraid that the First Order was building weapons and ships that went against the original armistice treaty.  

As to how much that will change with the destruction of the Senate, we'll have to wait until the next film to be certain.



> The Starkiller Base thing was kind of derivative, yeah. As for the other part, I think Rey is supposed to be the one to actually bring balance to the Force, as prophecized.
> 
> Also, Snoke really doesn't control the galaxy in any way, shape or form. He is nowhere near as politically powerful as Palpatine was. He's a glorified terrorist leader. The First Order's biggest strength is their advanced tech and their highly loyal and well-trained Stormtroopers. Their fleet is tiny compared to the Imperial fleet they model themselves after. They also have the Knights of Ren, who apparently number around a dozen and who are like a poor man's Vader individually, so they can have "Vader" in more places than the Empire could. I'd say they're about halfway between the power/competence level of the Inquisitors and Vader individually, with Kylo being the most competent one.



When you look at the First Order as a whole, there is a parallelism yet an inversion when compared to the Galactic Empire.  In the Original trilogy, the Galactic Empire was the main ruling body of the galaxy, governed and controlled by the Emperor.  But in the Sequel trilogy, it can be said that it is the First Order who are the "Rebels".  

As a matter of fact, I would say that the First Order is an amalgamation of Separatists, the Galactic Empire, *and the Rebel Alliance*.  The First Order is the remnants of the Galactic Empire formed after the Battle of Jakku as a result of the armistice treaty.  However, much like the Separatists, they secretly built a new fleet and a new army in the corners of the galaxy where the New Republic's gaze does not reach.  

Finally, the First Order has dedicated itself to overthrowing the current standing government of the galaxy, and to restoring the Galactic Empire, *just as the Rebel Alliance fought to restore the Galactic Republic.*

In a sense, the First Order is the extremist version of the Rebel Alliance, and a superior version of the Separatists, born from the remnants of the Galactic Empire and seeking a return to the Galactic Empire.

Kylo Ren is much the same.  He is Luke's opposite number in the sense that his turning to the Dark Side is for opposing reasons why Luke chose to become a Jedi: Luke chose to become a Jedi to follow in his father's foot-steps, while Kylo Ren went in the opposite direction and desired to continue on what his grandfather began as Darth Vader.  

Unlike Luke, who was kept in the dark about Vader's true identity and the true fate of his father, Kylo Ren has been established to know the whole truth about Darth Vader.  He knows that Vader returned to the Light and destroyed Palpatine, which is why one of his motivations through "The Force Awakens" was to become "immune to the Light" - he did not want to make the same "mistake" as Vader did.

The architect behind all of this was Snoke, who is also parallel to and an inversion of Palpatine.   To begin, their relationships with their apprentices.  Palpatine saw all of his apprentices as disposable pawns, even attempting to replace Vader with Luke by tempting him to the Dark Side.  Moreover, Darth Vader himself hates Palpatine and actively sought Luke out in the hopes of training him to help him destroy Palpatine. 

In contrast, Kylo Ren holds a complete albeit reverence for Snoke, going so far as to call him "wise".  On Snoke's part, his own interest in Kylo Ren is due to his belief that Kylo Ren was an ideal embodiment of the force: a focal point between Light and Dark.  You never saw any of that between Palpatine and Vader at any point in their relationship.

As you said, Palpatine was the ruler of the Galactic Empire, whereas Snoke is "a glorified terrorist leader".  In a sense, "Darth Sidious" was also the 'terrorist leader' of the Separatists, only he acted through Dooku, whereas Snoke has a direct hand in matters of the First Order.  I suspect that these contrasts between the two will continue to grow, assuming Snoke is whom people believe he may be (Plagueis).


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## Pilaf (Jan 27, 2016)

> As you said, Palpatine was the ruler of the Galactic Empire, whereas Snoke is "a glorified terrorist leader". In a sense, "Darth Sidious" was also the 'terrorist leader' of the Separatists, only he acted through Dooku, whereas Snoke has a direct hand in matters of the First Order. I suspect that these contrasts between the two will continue to grow, assuming Snoke is whom people believe he may be (Plagueis).



Am I the only one who would prefer if Snoke wasn't Plagueis? He'd be a much more interesting character if he was his own person.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

Page 25


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 27, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Am I the only one who would prefer if Snoke wasn't Plagueis? He'd be a much more interesting character if he was his own person.



When you consider his interest in those of the Skywalker line, his knowledge of the Force, and the fact that he is called "wise" by Kylo Ren (The Wise was Plagueis' epithet), it is not hard to assume this to be the case.

It'd also be a beautiful irony, wouldn't it?  For Palpatine to be dead wrong about Plagueis not being able to save himself?


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Plagueis was barely mentioned in the movies, and there are no remaining characters who would care about Snoke actually being him; don't see the point in the character returning


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

"it is actually I... Darth Plagueis!"

literally everyone: "who"


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

it is actually i...the boa constrictor at the zoo


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> "it is actually I... Darth Plagueis!"
> 
> literally everyone: "who"



Most would just assume he's a new character. He'd be a nod to the fans mostly


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> Most would just assume he's a new character. He'd be a nod to the fans mostly


a pointlessly distracting one if you ask me


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## Wan (Jan 27, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> Am I the only one who would prefer if Snoke wasn't Plagueis? He'd be a much more interesting character if he was his own person.



*raises hand*  I would.  Just like I would prefer if Rey is her own person and not Luke's daughter.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> a pointlessly distracting one if you ask me



How                ?

Not anymore distracting than Rey being a Skywalker


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Rey being a Skywalker would actually have ramifications that are relevant to this trilogy's characters

Snoke being Plageuis? Literally no different than if he'd always just been Snoke. Not even Luke would care about such a reveal.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Rey being a Skywalker would actually have ramifications that are relevant to this trilogy's characters
> 
> Snoke being Plageuis? Literally no different than if he'd always just been Snoke. Not even Luke would care about such a reveal.



You know this how? Plagueis is responsible for the Skywalkers


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

because no one has the faintest idea who he is

the only connection he has to anyone or anything that's happening right now would be if he were to show up and say some shit like "no, Luke, I am your grandfather"

which Sidious could have also said, but didn't. If Sidious, who was actively trying to convert Luke, didn't care to mention that he was partially responsible for Anakin's conception, why would Plagueis 

that's assuming Luke would even care


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## Wan (Jan 27, 2016)

Plagueis creating Anakin is part of the discarded EU anyways.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

No one has to know who he is

He's been hinted at

He can be introduced

Sidiious mentioned it to Anakin to seduce him to the dark side, he didn't need that for look

And besides Snoke's connection is with Kylo, not Luke, who's obsessed with Vader. If you can't see a Plagueis/Anakin/Kylo tie possibility then you just don't want to see it


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

Wan said:


> Plagueis creating Anakin is part of the discarded EU anyways.



It's mentioned in the prequels


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## Wan (Jan 27, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> It's mentioned in the prequels



Plagueis is mentioned, the part where he created Anakin isn't.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

It's implied pretty non-subtlely tho. Or am I making shit up?


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

it's heavily implied that Sidious created Anakin during the opera scene


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## Stunna (Jan 27, 2016)

Super Mike said:


> And besides Snoke's connection is with Kylo, not Luke, who's obsessed with Vader. If you can't see a Plagueis/Anakin/Kylo tie possibility then you just don't want to see it


I see the possibility

I just dun like it


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## Wan (Jan 27, 2016)

Ehhhhh.  You can argue it's implied, but it's certainly not something they have to treat as canon moving forward if they don't want.


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

I just don't want Rey to be a Skywalker


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> it's heavily implied that Sidious created Anakin during the opera scene



force jizz


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## Lucaniel (Jan 27, 2016)

Eurogamer Podcast #1

never forget


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## Mikaveli (Jan 27, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> Eurogamer Podcast #1
> 
> never forget



This whole thing is great, all the budget restraints


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## Suigetsu (Jan 27, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> Luke obviously didn't have a SON because if not he would have named him Ben. that was HIS mentor. so i imagine he let leia and han name their kid Ben since Luke never had a son to use that name on.


But he had a son originally.


Gilgamesh said:


> Really the worst thing about this movie is that it basically made the OT pointless. What did the Rebellion really accomplish? The Empire is still around they just call themselves the First Order now. There still is a Rebellion only this time we call it the Resistance. There is a still a Death Star but this time we call it the Starkiller and its bigger. The Jedi are still gone and forgotten and the dark side still runs the galaxy.


Ofc, it felt like Jay Jay was just re-playing the movie with his new toys and muh originality.



Catalyst75 said:


> Han knew Ben Kenobi as well, and Leia was also familiar with Ben.  The fact they chose to name their son after him shows how much Han came to respect Ben as Luke's original teacher.


Yeah he knew him like a taxi driver gets to know a client, That's the most idiotici thing ever.






Catalyst75 said:


> But George Lucas *has* given "The Force Awakens" his approval.  That is what you do not seem to get.  It seems that you are claiming it is 'fan-fiction' because *you* don't approve.


Oh dear you havent read the interviews havent you? He gave them ideas and told them what he had in mind, they said they wanted to do their own thing. So he said "fine, Ill go my way and you do your thing" next thing we know is he didnt like the fact that they didnt show anything original at all and that it basically "copied and canibalized everything" shortly after a damage control disney was published.
So how does that sound like an approval to you? 



> _Disney could definitely made their own version of the expanded universe *by using the already existing characters, just changing their stories a bit*
> _
> 
> That is what you said.  Yet you are twisting yourself into a pretzel to complain about how TFA "cannibalized" the Expanded universe, how it is just a "plagarization".


 Yes that is what I said, having already existing characters and modifying their fates, stories etc.. its different than canibalizing such already existing character into a completely new one. Learn the difference.



> The Force Awakens has new characters, a new history, a new villain, and a new story arc, *all without laying a finger on the Expanded Universe.*   It also draws parallels to the trilogies that came before it, while still maintaining its own identity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> it is actually i...the boa constrictor at the zoo



nice


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 27, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> Eurogamer Podcast #1
> 
> never forget



>you will never be treated in the Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Centre


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## Wan (Jan 27, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> How can this be new when it's the exact same thing that it was in new hope? It's the same story as in new hope so it is not new, villian is a wannabe darth vader so it's not new. Characters are mary sues and canibalizations so they can hardly be new.



Kylo Ren is most definitely a Vader wannabe, but that's the point.  They didn't just try doing Vader all over again.  They knew the expectation was to make a villain that lived up to Vader, but it would be impossible to just do Vader again and for it to actually be good.  So they made idolizing Vader, and fearing if he could actually live up to him, part of Kylo Ren's character.

Vader in A New Hope is already as powerful as he's going to get.  His abilities are fully realized, and his fall to the Dark Side was complete a long time ago.  He doesn't have a character arc in A New Hope, and his arc within Empire and Jedi is about Vader turning back from the Dark Side in the end.

Kylo Ren in The Force Awakens is considerably powerful, but he still has training to do.  He still struggles, in a sense, against "the pull to the light".  This is an odd thing to be struggling with, since the Dark Side is supposed to be the quick and easy path.  It's supposed to be a struggle to resist the Dark Side, not the other way around.  Ren seems to regard those opposing the First Order with contempt, referring to Rey's companions as "liars, murderers, and thieves" as if _they're_ the wrongdoers, not him.  The Supreme Leader is wise.  Han Solo was a disappointing father. Darth Vader was a hero, the kind of person he wants to be.   It's not just that he's evil, his own perception of what good and evil are completely backwards.

Contrast this to Vader.  When Luke pleads with him to return to the good side in Jedi, Vader doesn't say anything about the Emperor being wise, or that what he's doing is actually the right thing.  He just says "I must obey my master."  Vader knows what he's doing is evil, he just doesn't see a way out from it, so he keeps doing it.  It's a complete contrast with Ren's response of "The Supreme Leader is wise" when Han pleads with him to come back.  He thinks killing Han "takes strength" and that it will make him be "free of this pain".  _He thinks it was the right thing to do._ Part of Ren's character is that he wants to be as strong as Darth Vader, but he fears he never will be -- a fear that is more appropriate than he knows, because his actual character is very different from Vader.

And again, TFA doesn't have a Mary Sue, so I'm not sure why you keep mentioning that.


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 27, 2016)

> > If "The Force Awakens" was not part of the same ring-composition as the previous six films, then it wouldn't be a Star Wars film.
> 
> 
> Wathever the fuck does that even mean?



Homer's _The Illiad_ and _the Odyssey_ utilized ring-composition.  In other words, the story-telling style is thousands of years old.

In in simplest form, the basic structure of the ring-composition establishes a set of events that progress from a beginning to a mid-point; once the story reaches the mid-point, the events repeat themselves *in reverse order*, with the second half of the ring-composition consisting of events that are variants of the first set.  

To quote an essay that discusses this in regards to Star Wars itself: _"That means the first and last elements correspond to each other, the second and second-to-last elements correspond to each other, the third and third-to-last elements correspond to each other, and so on, creating a sort of circle or mirror image. "_  In words, a pattern of ABC...C'B'A

For Star Wars, The Phantom Menace corresponds to Return of the Jedi, Attack of the Clones to Empire Strikes Back, and Revenge of the Sith to A New Hope. 

Here is the wiki link: 

I came across the chaistic structure once before when I was taking classes where I read the Iliad and Odyssey, but it was only recently that I came across an essay which very convincingly provides evidence that shows the Star Wars films have followed the ring composition structure.

The essay is a long one, but it is because it is so extensive that I found it so enlightening in the first place:


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## Wan (Jan 27, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> I came across the chaistic structure once before when I was taking classes where I read the Iliad and Odyssey, but it was only recently that I came across an essay which very convincingly provides evidence that shows the Star Wars films have followed the ring composition structure.
> 
> The essay is a long one, but it is because it is so extensive that I found it so enlightening in the first place:



"Ring theory" isn't some brilliant idea no one has uncovered before.  The article is interesting and points out some neat things, but "ring theory" does not suddenly make bad writing and plotting good.  I'll let HelloGreedo explain:

[YOUTUBE]1FGBGcvWkdM[/YOUTUBE]


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## Catalyst75 (Jan 28, 2016)

Wan said:


> "Ring theory" isn't some brilliant idea no one has uncovered before.  The article is interesting and points out some neat things, but "ring theory" does not suddenly make bad writing and plotting good.  I'll let HelloGreedo explain:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]1FGBGcvWkdM[/YOUTUBE]



As far as I know, most people would not be aware of the concept of ring composition, nor actively look for it in a story.  *Suigetsu *basically confessed that he did not know what it was, and I myself did not strike upon the idea in relation to Star Wars until I found the essay itself.  It is not something most people would look for in a film, or a book series.

Yes, the overall execution of the prequels did leave much to be desired (although defending them was not the point I took from the essay), but the intent behind the overall narrative was to complete the ring that began with the Original Trilogy.  If they were just a string of bad movies in one franchise with no inter-connected theme, I'd be far less forgiving.  

For my part, I appreciate the Prequel Trilogy for showing just how successful Palpatine was in destroying the Jedi and turning the Republic into the Galactic Empire.  "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones" were the build-up, while "Revenge of the Sith" was the climax of everything Palpatine worked for.  People may not like the focus on politics given in the Prequels, but I felt that the focus was intended.  

It started with "Phantom Menance" when Palpatine manipulated Padme into calling the "vote of no confidence" that led to him becoming Chancellor; "The Attack of the Clones" showed Palpatine acquiring emergency powers at the midway point (with the full agreement of the Senate).   By the time he becomes Emperor in "Revenge of the Sith", the Senate has completely surrendered itself and the Galaxy to his authority, giving him absolute power and stripping away their freedom in the process.  

By contrast, the Rebel Alliance fights against the Empire to restore freedom to the Galaxy, and to restore the Galactic Republic.  The Original Trilogy was the fight for freedom; the Prequel Trilogy was how that freedom was lost.  

The Force Awakens adds a third part to that equation: the First Order seeks to destroy the New Republic in order to restore the Galactic Empire, a dark mirror of the Rebel Alliance from the Original Trilogy.


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## Pilaf (Jan 28, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> When you consider his interest in those of the Skywalker line, his knowledge of the Force, and the fact that he is called "wise" by Kylo Ren (The Wise was Plagueis' epithet), it is not hard to assume this to be the case.
> 
> It'd also be a beautiful irony, wouldn't it?  For Palpatine to be dead wrong about Plagueis not being able to save himself?



Clearly, Snoke has suffered some sort of slashing damage to the face in the past, and I think we're meant to assume this was Palpatine "murdering him in his sleep". 

I think this is misdirection, though. It makes sense that Palpatine would not have used a saber to assassinate the sleeping master. That's too noisey. I'm picturing maybe a force choke or lightning, if anything. Plagueis would have heard the sword activate. Also, in the off chance Sidious DID use the sword, he preferred as stabbing motion over a slashing one. We know this because we've seen him fight. His style was similar to Rey's, actually. 

The whole thing with "wise", plus all the other hints like the soundtrack, is honestly I believe some kind of fuckery meant to mislead smarter fans. JJ and Serkis have said Snoke is a new character, and 'not who you think'. They could be lying, but this is one of the few things that were directly confirmed before movie release and yet to be contradicted.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 28, 2016)

I haven't read this Starwarsringtheory thing yet (though I'm reading it now) but right off the bat here are my thoughts:

The problem with Star Wars as a work to be viewed through the lens of ring theory is that it doesn't make any sense for a variety of reasons that have to do with the fact that the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy are not about the same thing.

The early parts of this essay is full of things that set off warning bells; for instance something has gone dreadfully wrong in your understanding of the Star Wars saga if this is how you see episode one as a piece of the greater whole:



> Provides introductions to many of the 12-hour movie’s major players, including the protagonist (Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader) and antagonist (Palpatine/Darth Sidious).



by no measure is Darth Vader the protagonist, or even really positioned in any kind of positive light in the original trilogy until the last half of Return. He does not feature as anything more than an obstacle to be overcome until his story is deepened towards the end of empire.

This is fundamentally at odds with the prequel trilogy, the pretension that the saga as a whole is about the rise and fall of Anakin is exactly that, pretension. Luke is the main character of the original trilogy, Anakin is the main character of the prequel trilogy. That's it. Them's the breaks. There's arguably a better position to be held with Kenobi if you're willing to stretch everything this far.


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## Stunna (Jan 28, 2016)

that video was more or less p spot on about why this Star Wars ring theory shit is nonsense

although this is more succinct:

[YOUTUBE]bxU2eqZtYmc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Suigetsu (Jan 28, 2016)

I see people justifying this movie because:
>Muhh Pottery.
>Excusing Jar Jar Abrahams lack of talent and creativity with classic literature.

If people actually belive this then I am trully wasting my time.

Also why the force awakens? was it sleeping or something?


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## Stunna (Jan 28, 2016)

It awakened in Rey.


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## Suigetsu (Jan 28, 2016)

Stunna said:


> It awakened in Rey.



Wasnt the forced supposed to be something on everyone and all things? Jay jay with his self insert. Oh boy.


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## Stunna (Jan 28, 2016)

You're being obtuse.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 28, 2016)

I honestly think Poe and Finn will eventually turn out to have some lesser form of Force sensitivity as well, but Rey is the real star. I also think her mother was related to Palpatine. They're dropping some heavy hints with her lightsaber fighting style. It's seriously just like Sidious. If you watch the fights from ROTS and TFA back to back, you see that she uses multiple Palpatine moves, not just the saber thrust. The way she moves her legs and some of her spin moves are basically him.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 28, 2016)

Reyspin            .


----------



## Stunna (Jan 28, 2016)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 28, 2016)

yeah boy


----------



## Wan (Jan 28, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> I honestly think Poe and Finn will eventually turn out to have some lesser form of Force sensitivity as well, but Rey is the real star. I also think her mother was related to Palpatine. They're dropping some heavy hints with her lightsaber fighting style. It's seriously just like Sidious. If you watch the fights from ROTS and TFA back to back, you see that she uses multiple Palpatine moves, not just the saber thrust. The way she moves her legs and some of her spin moves are basically him.



Now that's one theory I haven't heard yet.


----------



## Wan (Jan 28, 2016)

Hmm, what about this theory?

[youtube]zWSoxDAjC44[/youtube]


----------



## Catalyst75 (Jan 28, 2016)

Wan said:


> Now that's one theory I haven't heard yet.



For my part, I do not believe it to be coincidence that Rey just happened to be left behind on the same planet where the last piece of the map to Luke's location was to be found.

That, and the fact that the lightsaber handed down through two generations of Skywalker reacted to her presence.


----------



## Wan (Jan 28, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> For my part, I do not believe it to be coincidence that Rey just happened to be left behind on the same planet where the last piece of the map to Luke's location was to be found.
> 
> That, and the fact that the lightsaber handed down through two generations of Skywalker reacted to her presence.



It may not be a coincidence...but I'd prefer it not be so predictable as just being Luke's daughter.  If there is a connection, I want it to be something else.


----------



## Kuromaku (Jan 29, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> I honestly think Poe and Finn will eventually turn out to have some lesser form of Force sensitivity as well, but Rey is the real star. *I also think her mother was related to Palpatine*. They're dropping some heavy hints with her lightsaber fighting style. It's seriously just like Sidious. If you watch the fights from ROTS and TFA back to back, you see that she uses multiple Palpatine moves, not just the saber thrust. The way she moves her legs and some of her spin moves are basically him.



Hypothetical titles for Ep. IX if something along these lines actually happens.

Return of the Sheev
Revenge of the Sheev
Sheev Strikes Back
Sheev Awakens
Sheev's Dead
The Legend of Sheev's Gold

Let's face it, Snoke simply doesn't have anything on Sheev so far.


----------



## Jeff (Jan 29, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> For my part, I do not believe it to be coincidence that Rey just happened to be left behind on the same planet where the last piece of the map to Luke's location was to be found.
> 
> That, and the fact that the lightsaber handed down through two generations of Skywalker reacted to her presence.



Some of my friends denied this to be true because if you look at the estimated age that Rey was when she was marooned on Jakku with the scrap dealer she's likely around 3 or 4 years old.  Old enough to keep a running tally of days that have passed since she was marooned there.  So if she is indeed Luke's child...wouldn't she just remember she is Luke's child?

Further evidence they point to is the fact that upon hearing about Luke Skywalker from Han Solo, Rey thought he was a "myth" showing she has some knowledge of the Jedi and Luke Skywalker...but not enough to quantify the fact they are family.

Unless we're drawing parallel's to Luke and Leia's upbringing where they didn't know their true heritage.  This would explain away the theory easily though.

But it's truly curious as to why Rey mentions almost nothing of those who left her on Jakku besides the fact they should be returning.  Her history is probably going to be a big part of the future plot and the reveal would not make sense if she's just some random person for them to hide it as such.

A few questions that I've pondered from this is of course why Rey is proficient with flying things and also the whole scene with Luke touching R2-D2 in the rain.  What is he telling R2?


----------



## Suigetsu (Jan 29, 2016)

Stunna said:


> You're being obtuse.



No way, that's what yoda said in TESB no?

Meanwhile here, have some Palpi:


----------



## Bubyrd Ratcatcher (Jan 29, 2016)

Jeff said:


> A few questions that I've pondered from this is of course why Rey is proficient with flying things and also the whole scene with Luke touching R2-D2 in the rain.  What is he telling R2?



I thought Luke was de-activating R2 because it knew too much about Rey past.
It still amazes me how R2 activated out of the blue, some Force impulse or something.

My guess is that Luke and R2 found Rey somewhere and hid her on that sandy planet. Probably because daugther of a malicious heritage.
My wild guess is that she is Lando daugther. (she was just too good with the Falcon) (and I would love to see Finn trying to win Lando favour)


----------



## Stunna (Jan 29, 2016)

What does the Force being a part of everything in the galaxy have to do with Rey supposedly being a self-insert. 

Random note: _Luke_ Skywalker is named Luke for a reason.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2016)

Snoke will probably never be as good as Sheev was


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 29, 2016)

Stunna said:


> What does the Force being a part of everything in the galaxy have to do with Rey supposedly being a self-insert.
> 
> Random note: _Luke_ Skywalker is named Luke for a reason.





ah, he's named after me?


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 29, 2016)

Yeah why is he called Luke?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2016)

his mother named him seconds before she died


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Jan 29, 2016)

Weiss said:


> his mother named him seconds before she died



I thought stunna was alluding that there's a reason she chose the name.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 29, 2016)

Stunna said:


> What does the Force being a part of everything in the galaxy have to do with Rey supposedly being a self-insert.
> 
> Random note: _Luke_ Skywalker is named Luke for a reason.



wat does this even mean?


----------



## Stunna (Jan 29, 2016)

I thought I read that George Lucas named Luke after his surname (thus a pseudo-self-insert), but I can't find where I would have read that to back that up, so nvm. 

My point still stands though; the Force being a galaxy-pervading force doesn't contradict it awakening specifically in Rey.


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 29, 2016)

Who is Rey a self-insert for? Abrams?


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 29, 2016)

There's a kind of logic involved with my Palpatine's grand-daughter/grand-niece hypothesis. 

We know Force Sensitivity runs in families. Palpatine was strong in the Force, which is why Plagueis chose him. In the non-canon Plagueis book, I believe Sheev murdered his own family as part of his Sith initiation, but since that book isn't considered canon any more, that aspect may have been retconned. (It's still partially canon, we know, because exerts of it are quoted in Tarkin, but not the Palpatine family murder thing.)

So, it's plausible Palpatine had surviving brothers or sisters who were also Force-sensitive and had kids. Or, maybe he was secretly a father himself, and had a whole bloodline. Either way, to protect the kids once he became Chancellor, he may have hidden them away in some remote area under protection. 

Fast forward to years later. Luke has cremated Vader. Palpatine is dead. The Empire is in retreat. Luke starts his search for Force-Sensitive children in the galaxy. He finds a few adults as well, including a young woman who would become his wife. Turns out she's Palpatine's relative. This would explain why Rey is so strong in the Force - both of her parents are force-sensitive, not just one. It would also explain some of the angry facial expressions and Sidious-like movements she made vs. Kylo. The Dark Side would be strong in her bloodline.


----------



## reiatsuflow (Jan 29, 2016)

> Who is Rey a self-insert for? Abrams?



Abrams also uncomfortable with young men trying to grab his hand all the time.

Which was probably the weirdest part of the script. You can tell it's going for meet cute banter between them, and some rey empowerment by having her insist she doesn't need the young man's help because she can do it on her own, or something along those lines. But it was weird. I've never seen it in a movie before, and I'm not sure I've ever seen it in life before either. A man keeps trying to hold a woman's hand, and she keeps telling him to stop, and it's cute. Could have used another pass on that one.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2016)

Rey Palpatine-Skywalker falls to the dark side and becomes the big bad of episode 9


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 29, 2016)

Really doubt we see Rey fall


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 29, 2016)

but it would be worth it to see the feminazis and SJWs triggered


----------



## Mikaveli (Jan 29, 2016)

reiatsuflow said:


> Abrams also uncomfortable with young men trying to grab his hand all the time.
> 
> Which was probably the weirdest part of the script. You can tell it's going for meet cute banter between them, and some rey empowerment by having her insist she doesn't need the young man's help because she can do it on her own, or something along those lines. But it was weird. I've never seen it in a movie before, and I'm not sure I've ever seen it in life before either. A man keeps trying to hold a woman's hand, and she keeps telling him to stop, and it's cute. Could have used another pass on that one.



Yeah that was the weirdest thing in the whole movie. It wasn't even cute, just strange and out of place. Bad, really.


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 29, 2016)

I think that scene was supposed to be driving home the social retardation of Finn more so than any feminist point.



Weiss said:


> Rey Palpatine-Skywalker falls to the dark side and becomes the big bad of episode 9




I expect to see her and Ben waffle back and forth a few times. Snoke mentioned that both sides of the Force are waking up, even within specific individuals. I think maybe the ultimate payoff is that neither the Jedi nor Dark Side return, but we'll see the rise of Grey Jedi.


----------



## Wan (Jan 29, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> I think that scene was supposed to be driving home the social retardation of Finn more so than any feminist point.



Yeah, this.  Also, it sort of felt like that scene in Star Trek '09 where Kirk and Bones were running around the ship and Bones kept injecting Kirk in the neck, with Kirk repeatedly saying "Stop it!".  I do kind of agree that it felt a little awkward here in Star Wars, but that's kind of the point, so I wouldn't say it's bad.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 29, 2016)

never let any hint of menace be displayed

the menace must remain phantom, stunna


----------



## Pilaf (Jan 29, 2016)

I thought it was a decent title. One of the better parts of the movie. I mean, I got it when I was a kid. The Sith were "the phandom menace" striking from the shadows, pulling the strings. The basic story of that movie would have been carried out better by a director who understands pacing and human drama. Keep in mind George Lucas is the guy who directed THX 1138. If you've ever seen the original student film version of that - there's George Lucas in a nutshell. He's an avant garde guy. He's all about images and visual poetry. He gave some lip service to the Hero's Journey in the OT, but really the editors saved the first movie, and having actual directors saved the other two.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 30, 2016)

Pilaf said:


> I thought it was a decent title. One of the better parts of the movie. I mean, I got it when I was a kid. The Sith were "the phandom menace" striking from the shadows, pulling the strings. The basic story of that movie would have been carried out better by a director who understands pacing and human drama. Keep in mind George Lucas is the guy who directed THX 1138. If you've ever seen the original student film version of that - there's George Lucas in a nutshell. He's an avant garde guy. He's all about images and visual poetry. He gave some lip service to the Hero's Journey in the OT, but really the editors saved the first movie, and having actual directors saved the other two.



I could actually believe this explanation 

cause the prequels have a lot of visual "poetry" type shit going on and george is obviously quite enamoured with the cgi they were using which nominally was meant to be the next step in visual design or w/e


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 30, 2016)

i mean 

there's a difference between poetry and "poetry" 

visual poetry is what i'd call any movie emmanuel lubezki worked on

visual "poetry" is when george lucas recreates the emperor's throne room set for the beginning of revenge of the sith, even though in the context of the movie, that should be at the end, not at the beginning. why does he do it? cuz it's the same so it RHYMES


----------



## Stunna (Jan 30, 2016)

Suigetsu said:


> Because apparently she was so mary sue and self inserted that the force had to literally manifest on her.


...what's Mary Sue-ish about the Force awakening in her? 

Pretty sure there's a point in ever FS person's life when the Force awakens within them. Since Rey's the protagonist, the title is referring to the instance of it happening specifically to her.

Again, you're being obtuse.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 30, 2016)

>arguing with suigetsu in the year of our lord twenty sixteen


----------



## Stunna (Jan 30, 2016)

**


----------



## Lucaniel (Jan 30, 2016)

instead of banging your head against the wall here, i got something to occupy you, stunna. it's pretty dope 

[YOUTUBE]LYOtZvwNCsc[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 30, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> i mean
> 
> there's a difference between poetry and "poetry"
> 
> ...



I never said he was good at it 

I just said that I could believe that this is how Lucas thinks about filming movies from a conceptual pov


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Feb 5, 2016)

The movie broke


----------



## tari101190 (Feb 5, 2016)




----------



## Stunna (Feb 5, 2016)

lol sure why not


----------



## Bender (Feb 6, 2016)

Goddammn this woman is kawaiii


----------



## Pilaf (Feb 6, 2016)




----------



## Bender (Feb 7, 2016)

@Pilaf

lol lol lol lol

Check this out




Also lol @ this


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 7, 2016)

i dont know but can you stop YELLING AT ME YOU'RE STRESSING ME OUT

loved that line (not sure if exact quote is correct)

i use it often in real life lmfao


----------



## BigPoppaPump (Feb 7, 2016)

I've watched it again finally, even less impressive second time.It goes down to a 6/10 for me.


----------



## Pilaf (Feb 7, 2016)

Awww man. You just ended JJ's career. That was a monster dis track.


----------



## Bender (Feb 7, 2016)

@BPP

Oh wow, and I bet nearly every other person who's seen the movie twice feels the same as you. 

I've seen it five times already and I fucking loved it each time I saw it.


----------



## Pilaf (Feb 8, 2016)

No sarcasm here. He's spitting flames. His rap career is about to take the fuck off.


----------



## Bender (Feb 8, 2016)

Maybe if BPP didn't act like such an attention whore saying something he aint elaborate on we wouldn't chew his ass out.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 8, 2016)

He wasn't obligated to elaborate. Just because his opinion doesn't align with your own doesn't mean he's whoring for attention.

Settle down.


----------



## Gunners (Feb 8, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]bkZg3_Sy-X4[/YOUTUBE]

Not everyone has to share the same opinion. I can understand why someone would think less of the film after a second viewing to be honest. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people viewed it for the first time hoping that it wouldn't be as crap as the prequels. When the film was pretty good, it alleviated those fears and surpassed expectations. Second view, people would likely approach it with more objectivity.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Feb 8, 2016)

It's not as crap as the PT

It's worse


----------



## Stunna (Feb 8, 2016)

Top 10 favorite Boondocks scenes


----------



## Bender (Feb 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> He wasn't obligated to elaborate.



It'd make the shit he said less ridiculous if he gave a reason; however, I do like it when people explain their reasoning.

P.S

I don't give two shits if his opinion is different than mine.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 8, 2016)

Clearly you do.


----------



## Bender (Feb 8, 2016)

@Stunna

If I did care don't you think you would be the first person whose mind I'd try to change (since you're not wholly positive about SW TFA)?


----------



## Turrin (Feb 8, 2016)

Honestly feel like almost everyone who bitches about TFA are people that refuse to evaluate the film within the context of it being Part I of a Trilogy, and are only considering it from the stand point of a stand alone film, and than proceed to complain about why they did not get answers to all the questions raised in Part I of a Trilogy. Sorry, but I just really think it all comes down to holding the film to unfair standards.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 8, 2016)

do you also think it's unfair standards to criticize it for being derivative?


----------



## Bender (Feb 8, 2016)

If by "derivative" you mean it wasn't as shamefully bad as Lucas writing than sure y not? 

The trio of original were flatly written in comparison to TFA who have more depth and exciting auras.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 8, 2016)

**


----------



## Turrin (Feb 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> do you also think it's unfair standards to criticize it for being derivative?


Yes because again it's evaluating it as a stand alone film, and not taking into consideration that the parallels drawn between ANH/EPI & TFA may be intentionally crafted to further the plot along in the next 2 films. 

If the similarities served no purpose to the plot of the trilogy besides being derivative i'd understand the complaint, but I personally greatly doubt that is the case and at the very least no one can make that claim until we actually see Episode VIII and Episode IX.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 8, 2016)

well... alright then


----------



## Turrin (Feb 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> well... alright then


I mean dude, if the entire build up is just leading up to a scene where Kylo Ren cuts off Rey's hand and reveals that he's her brother/cousin, as she screams that's impossible, than at that point I'd be like dam this is just a shameless rehash on the part of disney to make bank. But there are other valid reasons for the parallels between EP1/ANH and TFA. For example I've been working on a massive thesis about why Rey's story in TFA is an intentional misdirect, and she is not Luke's duaghter, but rather "Kira Ren" the original Leader of the Knights of Ren, i'll post it here if your interested, but imagine how jaw dropping something like that would be as the twist of Episode VIII, after TFA has lulled fans into believing the trilogy will merely be rehash of the originals w/ minor deviations. And it doesn't need to be that, that's just my personal pet theory, there are a-lot of plausible reasons for the parallels that were being drawn.


----------



## Mikaveli (Feb 9, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yes because again it's evaluating it as a stand alone film, and not taking into consideration that the parallels drawn between ANH/EPI & TFA may be intentionally crafted to further the plot along in the next 2 films.
> 
> If the similarities served no purpose to the plot of the trilogy besides being derivative i'd understand the complaint, but I personally greatly doubt that is the case and at the very least no one can make that claim until we actually see Episode VIII and Episode IX.





 

  ​


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 9, 2016)

​


----------



## Wan (Feb 9, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> It's not as crap as the PT
> 
> It's worse







Stunna said:


> do you also think it's unfair standards to criticize it for being derivative?



It's a Star Wars movie, bringing it back to theaters for the first time in a decade, with the added pressure of people hating on the prequels for being so different than the original trilogy.  Of _course_ it's going to be derivative, on some level.  But it also has a good of amount of elements that make it distinct from the original trilogy, that make it memorable.  Particularly with the characters.

So it's not unfair to point out that the film is derivative.  But if you're going to rag on the movie just for being derivative?  I question why you're watching the movie in the first place.  I think the weaker parts of the movie aren't just when it's derivative, but when it's derivative without being _effective_. (ie Starkiller Base)


----------



## Velocity (Feb 9, 2016)

Honestly, after watching this one a few times, I actually do think it's a pretty bad movie. The film's biggest problem isn't that it's essentially A New Hope with different characters filling similar roles, but that it explains basically nothing at all and the four new leads are really badly written characters.

Rey and Finn are both incredibly annoying for entirely different reasons - Finn because he's supposedly this outstanding Stormtrooper who spends 70% of the film freaking out and Rey because, of course, she's too good at everything (especially compared to others who have huge amounts of training and experience she doesn't have). Poe was also written terribly and would've been a disaster if it wasn't for Oscar Isaac's charm and delivery of such a one note character. We literally know nothing about the guy except he's the best pilot ever.

Kylo Ren is just a whiny bitch, too. He has literally one badass moment when he freezes that blaster bolt but ruins it by slashing things with his lightsaber in anger like some sulking teenager and by trying to set up his redemption arc already. That didn't happen with Vader until Return of the Jedi so I definitely think they rushed that with Kylo. He should have spent at least one film as a faceless badass who seemed invincible, especially if they were really trying to sell this idea that he was a Jedi killer.

You can literally describe all four characters with two words each: Rey is "too perfect", Finn is "too wimpy", Poe is "awesome pilot" and Kylo is "too emo". That's terrible writing and it honestly doesn't help that the only good actor out of those four is Oscar Isaac. Even Hayden Christensen gave us more with Anakin than these guys did with their characters and his was written even worse.

And don't even get me started on the not explaining a damn thing thing they had going on. It is frankly ridiculous that you have websites like SlashFilm writing up entire articles about 20-30 unanswered questions and their own speculation as to the answers. Giving the audience questions that will be answered in later films is great, like who Snoke is and why he seems scared of Luke, but when you don't even explain what's going on with the Republic, where the First Order came from, who the heck Max Von Sydow played, why he had a part of the map and why R2-D2 had most of the map needed to find Luke if he shut down when Luke left... There is too much background information missing from this film. Too much detail they glossed over so they could show us how amazing Rey is or how sulky Kylo is.

I'd say it was actually third worst. It's better than Attack of the Clones and Return of the Jedi but that's really only because of the nostalgia factor and Oscar Isaac apparently filling in for Ewan McGregor in this trilogy by being the only actor that gives a great performance in spite of having little to work with.


----------



## Wan (Feb 9, 2016)

Clay said:


> Honestly, after watching this one a few times, I actually do think it's a pretty bad movie. The film's biggest problem isn't that it's essentially A New Hope with different characters filling similar roles, but that it explains basically nothing at all and the four new leads are really badly written characters.



Alright, I'm open to hearing criticism of the movie, so let's hear it.



> Rey and Finn are both incredibly annoying for entirely different reasons - Finn because he's supposedly this outstanding Stormtrooper



He's not.

Finn is not supposedly an outstanding stormtrooper. Jakku was his first battle.  His job on Starkiller Base was sanitation -- he was a janitor, basically.  You've gotten an incredibly basic detail about a character wrong in your first sentence.  This does not bode well for the rest of your post. 



> who spends 70% of the film freaking out



We are introduced to him freaking out over being in battle and having to kill innocents.  A pivotal moment for his character is freaking out over the thought of having to face the First Order again.  When Rey gets captured, though, it's important enough to him to man up and face the First Order.  And by the end of the movie, he's brave enough to face down Kylo Ren.  _This is the point of his character_, it's part of what makes him interesting.  This is not some inconsistency. 



> Rey because, of course, she's too good at everything (especially compared to others who have huge amounts of training and experience she doesn't have).



What do you think Ray is "too good at", exactly?



> Poe was also written terribly and would've been a disaster if it wasn't for Oscar Isaac's charm and delivery of such a one note character. We literally know nothing about the guy except he's the best pilot ever.



Well, and he's a pilot for the Resistance.  By comparison, what did we know about Han Solo in A New Hope?



> Kylo Ren is just a whiny bitch, too.



Ohhhhhhh boy...



> He has literally one badass moment when he freezes that blaster bolt but ruins it by slashing things with his lightsaber in anger like some sulking teenager



You know that moment was meant to be funny, right?  If the "nope" stormtroopers didn't clue you in.



> and by trying to set up his redemption arc already.  That didn't happen with Vader until Return of the Jedi so I definitely think they rushed that with Kylo.



You're right, Vader did not have an arc until after A New Hope.  I'd say that is a flaw with how Vader was presented as a character, not with Kylo Ren here for _having_ a character arc.  Bear in mind we don't know where his arc is going -- if it's actually going to be a redemption arc, or if he's headed toward villainy and isn't actually going to be redeemed.  He's certainly headed in the later direction by the end of TFA.



> He should have spent at least one film as a faceless badass who seemed invincible, especially if they were really trying to sell this idea that he was a Jedi killer.



No, because he's not a carbon copy of Vader, and he shouldn't be.  He's different.  He's tied to Vader as a character in that he idolizes Vader, but the whole point of his character is different.  He's a villain-in-training, a rival whose strength will grow alongside the heroes rather than starting as this unassailable foe who remains static in power.  He's more along the lines of Zuko, subject to influences (Snoke) that have warped his sense of what's right and wrong.  You're projecting expectations for him being just like Vader when, from a character standpoint, _he's not supposed to be just like Vader_.



> You can literally describe all four characters with two words each: Rey is "too perfect", Finn is "too wimpy", Poe is "awesome pilot" and Kylo is "too emo".



You can, but you'd be grossly oversimplifying and just flat out wrong for the most part.



> That's terrible writing and it honestly doesn't help that the only good actor out of those four is Oscar Isaac.



All four gave good performances.



> Even Hayden Christensen gave us more with Anakin than these guys did with their characters and his was written even worse.



Are you s**ting me right now?



> And don't even get me started on the not explaining a damn thing thing they had going on. It is frankly ridiculous that you have websites like SlashFilm writing up entire articles about 20-30 unanswered questions and their own speculation as to the answers. Giving the audience questions that will be answered in later films is great, like who Snoke is and why he seems scared of Luke, but when you don't even explain what's going on with the Republic, where the First Order came from, who the heck Max Von Sydow played, why he had a part of the map and why R2-D2 had most of the map needed to find Luke if he shut down when Luke left... There is too much background information missing from this film. Too much detail they glossed over so they could show us how amazing Rey is or how sulky Kylo is.



Where did the Empire come from?  Where did Leia get the plans to the Death Star in A New Hope?  Why is the Rebellion fighting against the Empire to begin with?



> I'd say it was actually third worst. It's better than Attack of the Clones and Return of the Jedi but that's really only because of the nostalgia factor and Oscar Isaac apparently filling in for Ewan McGregor in this trilogy by being the only actor that gives a great performance in spite of having little to work with.



I'm not sure what's worse here, the implication that The Force Awakens is worse than The Phantom Menace, or the implication that Return of the Jedi is worse than The Phantom Menace.  I guess there weren't enough debates about taxation of trade routes in either movie.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 9, 2016)

Clay said:


> Honestly, after watching this one a few times, I actually do think it's a pretty bad movie. The film's biggest problem isn't that it's essentially A New Hope with different characters filling similar roles, but that it explains basically nothing at all and the four new leads are really badly written characters.
> 
> Rey and Finn are both incredibly annoying for entirely different reasons - Finn because he's supposedly this outstanding Stormtrooper who spends 70% of the film freaking out and Rey because, of course, she's too good at everything (especially compared to others who have huge amounts of training and experience she doesn't have). Poe was also written terribly and would've been a disaster if it wasn't for Oscar Isaac's charm and delivery of such a one note character. We literally know nothing about the guy except he's the best pilot ever.
> 
> ...



idk about this post tbh

I could go in depth as to how almost every point is just literally wrong but it seems that you've been caught up in the memes so it likely wouldn't break through


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 9, 2016)

Clay stop being bad


----------



## Velocity (Feb 9, 2016)

Some people will go to insane lengths to defend this film, apparently. I'm not interested in speculation or justifications or dumb "you're wrong!" remarks with no substance. Just because it's Star Wars made by Disney doesn't make it a good film. Like Epic Rap Battles eloquently put it, Disney specialises in "assembly line whimsy". The Force Awakens is easy on the eyes and easy on the brain. That's basically it. Put enough flashy effects and scenes to go "awwwww" at in there and apparently most people won't care about the one note characters, obvious reuse of an almost 40 year old plot and the heavy reliance on nostalgia just to have any emotional impact.

Honestly, the reaction is worrying. When Lucas said he couldn't give fans the films they wanted, I had no idea The Force Awakens is what we wanted.



Wan said:


> I'm not sure what's worse here, the implication that The Force Awakens is worse than The Phantom Menace, or the implication that Return of the Jedi is worse than The Phantom Menace.  I guess there weren't enough debates about taxation of trade routes in either movie.



Wait, wait, wait... When did I say The Phantom Menace was better than Return of the Jedi? Or is this your attempt to discredit my opinion by coming out with assumptions? I wasn't comparing those two films at all so don't even try that strawman shit with me.

The Phantom Menace had awesome fight scenes and a great villain that had an iconic look and didn't even need to do much speaking to appear imposing and badass. The Trade Federation, the "crisis" on Naboo and the Gungans were all terrible ideas but even they can't take away from Liam Neeson using the Force to cheat at gambling or Ewan McGregor's humour and charm. The film had issues but it was still unique and guess what? It filled us in on all the background details we needed. We got to see the Senate, the Republic and the Jedi at the height of their power, we were told how long the Sith had been in hiding and what their goals generally were... For a film about "taxation of trade routes" as you called it, Lucas set the stage for the entire trilogy in that one film.

The Force Awakens had none of that. No awesome fight scenes, no badass villain, no real exposition... All we got instead was a cute mascot robot, Oscar Isaac stealing every scene he was in because the rest of the cast was basically phoning it in and that one awesome scene of the Millennium Falcon flying through the wreck of a Star Destroyer which was ruined by Rey apparently being some super amazing pilot - better than a Stormtrooper trained from birth - in spite of the fact she hasn't flown a starship like that in her entire life.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 9, 2016)

Kylo Ren > Darth Maul

easy


Maul also died (well not really) like an idiot in TPM


----------



## Kuromaku (Feb 9, 2016)

You know, looking back on the movie after a while, I've come to feel more and more that the characters succeed in being likable in spite of the writing, rather than because of it. A lot of the writing seems either forced or clumsy, but the performances actually make it work. I'd have a much less positive attitude toward Rey if not for Daisy's performance, Boyega was just plain likable, Isaac was genuinely charming and almost cavalier instead of the borderline Whedon writing for some of his quippier moments, and Adam Driver managed to make his character work as a foil to Vader. So yeah, kudos to the direction and acting, which saved a rather flawed script. In hindsight, had Lucas been a better actor's director, the prequels could have succeeded despite the writing, or at least been far better than what we got.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 9, 2016)

PT had some good actors



but whose decision was it to cast Christensen ?


----------



## Wan (Feb 9, 2016)

Clay said:


> Some people will go to insane lengths to defend this film, apparently. I'm not interested in speculation or justifications or dumb "you're wrong!" remarks with no substance. Just because it's Star Wars made by Disney doesn't make it a good film. Like Epic Rap Battles eloquently put it, Disney specialises in "assembly line whimsy". The Force Awakens is easy on the eyes and easy on the brain. That's basically it. Put enough flashy effects and scenes to go "awwwww" at in there and apparently most people won't care about the one note characters, obvious reuse of an almost 40 year old plot and the heavy reliance on nostalgia just to have any emotional impact.
> 
> Honestly, the reaction is worrying. When Lucas said he couldn't give fans the films they wanted, I had no idea The Force Awakens is what we wanted.



Yes, my post was clearly going to insane lengths and just spouting "you're wrong!"  Notice how you haven't actually said anything about what's specifically in the film here, you're just making general remarks while not saying anything of actual critical value.  If anyone's dismissively saying "you're wrong" without backing it up with substance, it's _you_.



> Wait, wait, wait... When did I say The Phantom Menace was better than Return of the Jedi? Or is this your attempt to discredit my opinion by coming out with assumptions? I wasn't comparing those two films at all so don't even try that strawman shit with me.



You said TFA was the "third worst", and then proceeded to say it's better than AOTC and ROTJ, making them worst and second worst respectively, thus implying that The Phantom Menace was better than all three.



> The Phantom Menace had awesome fight scenes



So did TFA.  And TFA's fight scenes had a point, whereas Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul was pretty much just filler that did nothing for the characters or the plot.


> and a great villain that had an iconic look



Kylo Ren's look is pretty iconic too, so if that excuse works for Maul, it should work for Ren.  But...is Maul really a villain?  Does he actually _do_ anything in the movie?  He shows up a couple times to give Qui-gon and Obi-wan someone to fight.  That's it.  There is no character there, no plot relevance there, no nothing.  Maul is so one-note it's generous to say he even has a note.



> and didn't even need to do much speaking to appear imposing and badass.



So you like Maul for superficial reasons.  Got it.



> The Trade Federation, the "crisis" on Naboo and the Gungans were all terrible ideas



It's good that you at least acknowledge this.



> but even they can't take away from Liam Neeson using the Force to cheat at gambling



Er...ok?  Oooooh wow, he used the Force to cheat at gambling!



> Ewan McGregor's humour and charm.



Yeah, Obi-wan was quite charming while he sat on the sidelines for the majority of the movie. 



> The film had issues but it was still unique and guess what? It filled us in on all the background details we needed. We got to see the Senate, the Republic and the Jedi at the height of their power,



I just wish it wasn't so boring and pointless to the plot of the actual movie.  You could skip the whole trip to Coruscant and literally nothing about the plot back on Naboo would change.



> we were told how long the Sith had been in hiding and what their goals generally were...



What were the Sith's goals, then?



> For a film about "taxation of trade routes" as you called it, Lucas set the stage for the entire trilogy in that one film.



Actually, you can arguably skip right over The Phantom Menace and watch AOTC and ROTS and not really miss much.



> The Force Awakens had none of that. No awesome fight scenes



The fight scenes in TFA were pretty awesome, in my opinion.  Maybe not quite as flashy, but the OT fights aren't as flashy as TPM's fight and that doesn't make them worse.  TFA's fights were more emotionally charged than...anything, really, in TPM.  And that's what really counts when it comes to writing and staging a fight scene.



> no badass villain



Kylo Ren had badass moments, but he was more developed, more human than just being a badass.  Because a well written character needs more to him than just being a badass.



> no real exposition...



I think you have the definitions of at least two words here wrong.



> All we got instead was a cute mascot robot



Yep, and it was a heck of a lot better than Jar Jar.



> Oscar Isaac stealing every scene he was in because the rest of the cast was basically phoning it in



Good acting, what the f**k is it



> that one awesome scene of the Millennium Falcon flying through the wreck of a Star Destroyer which was ruined by Rey apparently being some super amazing pilot - better than a Stormtrooper trained from birth - in spite of the fact she hasn't flown a starship like that in her entire life.



There you go again getting basic details about the characters wrong.  She says she's a pilot.  If she's a pilot, the implication is _she's flown ships before._  And after they escape Jakku, Rey does explicitly say she's flow ships before.


----------



## Raidoton (Feb 9, 2016)

Kuromaku said:


> I've come to feel more and more that the characters succeed in being likable in spite of the writing, rather than because of it.


Yeah I actually liked the actors of Rey, Finn and Kylo. But they didn't things that made me like them a lot less, which is obviously a result of the writing. 
In a lot of the dialogs for example, I was just thinking "Why would you say that? That doesn't sound like natural conversation.". The reason was of course to get a specific respone, which really felt forced.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 9, 2016)

Weiss said:


> PT had some good actors
> 
> 
> 
> but whose decision was it to cast Christensen ?


it didn't matter who was cast as Anakin; the direction and script would have ruined the performance regardless

Christensen was as fine a choice as anyone else


----------



## Turrin (Feb 9, 2016)

Clay said:


> The Phantom Menace had awesome fight scenes and a great villain that had an iconic look and didn't even need to do much speaking to appear imposing and badass. ..


I will never understand why people wank Darth Maul so much. Yes the guy looked cool and had a cool new lightsaber, but there was no substance to Maul's character whatsoever in TPM, and he had thee smallest impact plot wise on the series out of any of the main villains, as well as dying a pretty lame death due to simply underrating Obi Wan and letting his guard down too much.

Kylo Ren also has a cool design, imo cooler design, but is extremely influential to the plot of TFA and has a real character arc. 

Objectively speaking their is no reason for anyone to rate Kylo Ren bellow Maul, as a villain, except opinion based purely on character aesthetics.



> The Trade Federation, the "crisis" on Naboo and the Gungans were all terrible ideas


So basically your saying most of the film was terrible, because the film was primarily about the Trade Federation, the "crisis" on Naboo, and the Gungans. 



> t even they can't take away from Liam Neeson using the Force to cheat at gambling or Ewan McGregor's humour and charm. The film had issues but it was still unique and guess what?


I also liked Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor's acting and thought they did a good job with Obi Wan and Jin's characters respectively. However I enjoyed Rey, Finn, Poe, Solo, Chewie, Maz, and Kylo in TFA, while I only like Jin and Obi wan from TPM. 

Ultimately though enjoy the character's is subjective tho, so there isn't much merit in this argument.



> It filled us in on all the background details we needed. We got to see the Senate, the Republic and the Jedi at the height of their power, we were told how long the Sith had been in hiding and what their goals generally were... For a film about "taxation of trade routes" as you called it, Lucas set the stage for the entire trilogy in that one film.


The Force Awakens also establish everything you "need" to know at this point in the story. It established the Force Order, Resistance, and a myriad of new characters. Both were movie primarily there for set up, because again they were Part I of a Trilogy of films.



> The Force Awakens had none of that. No awesome fight scenes,


As far as i'm concerned TFA followed the same formula as all of the other films, having some action along the way building up to a final awesome light saber duel. The only difference is the action leading up to that final duel was better in TFA than AoTC and TPM by a fucking mile, and Rey/Poe vs Ren was better than any Lightsaber duel in OT due to the advancement of tech, and was better than AoTC, because yeah I won't even go there. So really only ROS beats TFA in terms of action overall, and there is good reason for that to be the case, ROS is the concluding film in the Prequel trilogy so it's action will be dialed up to 11, and secondly most of the battles in that film were between Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, meaning the level of skill of the fighters was vastly higher than in TFA.



> no badass villain


Depends how we defined badass and whether a villain has to be a badass to be good. However if your calling Maul a badass, than literally your definition just comes down to whether a villain looks like a badass, since there is literally nothing besides aesthetics when it comes to Maul. In which case Kylo is also a badass because again he looks as cool or cooler than Maul imo.



> no real exposition...


There was more character exposition with Ren's, Han's, Rey's, and Finn's character in TFA than any character in the prequel trilogy sans Anakin and Obi, which at least in Anakin's case was poorly executed exposition, that actually took away from a great character like Vader in the first film.



> All we got instead was a cute mascot robot, Oscar Isaac stealing every scene he was in because the rest of the cast was basically phoning it in and that one awesome scene of the Millennium Falcon flying through the wreck of a Star Destroyer which was ruined by Rey apparently being some super amazing pilot - better than a Stormtrooper trained from birth - in spi


It's almost like there is some mystery behind Rey's skills TFA is begging viewers to question


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 9, 2016)

> it didn't matter who was cast as Anakin; the direction and script would have ruined the performance regardless
> 
> Christensen was as fine a choice as anyone else


I disagree

a better actor could have salvaged something _perhaps_


I hated his face almost as much as his lines


----------



## Stunna (Feb 9, 2016)

I liked Christensen's evil face

that's about as much as I would expect from anyone playing Anakin under those conditions


----------



## Catalyst75 (Feb 9, 2016)

Nighty said:


> idk about this post tbh
> 
> I could go in depth as to how almost every point is just literally wrong but it seems that you've been caught up in the *memes* so it likely wouldn't break through



Individuality is a myth.  Personal opinion is a joke.  *Clay* is a pawn, controlled by something greater:


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 9, 2016)

Clay said:


> Honestly, after watching this one a few times, I actually do think it's a pretty bad movie. The film's biggest problem isn't that it's essentially A New Hope with different characters filling similar roles, but that it explains basically nothing at all and the four new leads are really badly written characters.
> 
> Rey and Finn are both incredibly annoying for entirely different reasons - Finn because he's supposedly this outstanding Stormtrooper who spends 70% of the film freaking out and Rey because, of course, she's too good at everything (especially compared to others who have huge amounts of training and experience she doesn't have). Poe was also written terribly and would've been a disaster if it wasn't for Oscar Isaac's charm and delivery of such a one note character. We literally know nothing about the guy except he's the best pilot ever.
> 
> ...





Clay said:


> Some people will go to insane lengths to defend this film, apparently. I'm not interested in speculation or justifications or dumb "you're wrong!" remarks with no substance. Just because it's Star Wars made by Disney doesn't make it a good film. Like Epic Rap Battles eloquently put it, Disney specialises in "assembly line whimsy". The Force Awakens is easy on the eyes and easy on the brain. That's basically it. Put enough flashy effects and scenes to go "awwwww" at in there and apparently most people won't care about the one note characters, obvious reuse of an almost 40 year old plot and the heavy reliance on nostalgia just to have any emotional impact.
> 
> Honestly, the reaction is worrying. When Lucas said he couldn't give fans the films they wanted, I had no idea The Force Awakens is what we wanted.
> 
> ...



damn pete better give me that browser extension that lets you super ignore muds soon, this is some radioactive autism


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 9, 2016)

Weiss said:


> I hated his face almost as much as his lines



and there is no amount of voice modulation technology that will ever get me to believe that _that_ friend would ever sound like James earl Jones.


----------



## Bender (Feb 9, 2016)

Stunna said:


> *I liked Christensen's evil face*



Gay


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 9, 2016)

hayden was great

i dont think anybody else could have delivered those lines like he did

it takes talent to be able to play that so authentically


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## Bender (Feb 9, 2016)

@A-Waltz

Meh. Hayden's line "From my point of view the Jedi are evil" sounded like dialogue from an eight-year old than a a Jedi turncoat.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 9, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> hayden was great
> 
> i dont think anybody else could have delivered those lines like he did
> 
> it takes talent to be able to play that so authentically



Perhaps this video may help:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2BNdF_NCVQ&list=LLtUE9ceRWec_4PC-3c1BbQA&index=2[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> @A-Waltz
> 
> Meh. Hayden's line "From my point of view the Jedi are evil" sounded like dialogue from an eight-year old than a a Jedi turncoat.



but the delivery is so believable


----------



## Sennin of Hardwork (Feb 9, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]JbpgM-JTang[/YOUTUBE]


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## Bender (Feb 9, 2016)

@A-Waltz

Not really. I felt like I was looking at a man-child when he said that line. I'm glad  he lost most of the bratiness he had in Episode II but his outburst on not being granted the title "Jedi master" reminded me he still same punk.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 9, 2016)

> but the delivery is so believable



When you look at how the Jedi were depicted to be flawed throughout the Prequel trilogy, it is believable in Anakin's case.  After all, Mace Windu's attempt to execute Palpatine went against the very code of the Jedi that he had been told he was supposed to follow, and we did in fact see scenes where Mace discussed how the Jedi would have to take over the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition once Palpatine was removed from power.

Also, this quote:

Mace Windu: [has Palpatine subdued]* I'm going to put an end to this, once and for all! *
Anakin Skywalker: *You can't. He must stand trial. *
Mace Windu: He has control of the senate and all the courts. *He is too dangerous to be left alive! *
Supreme Chancellor: [exhausted and disfigured] But, I'm too weak. Don't kill me. 
Anakin Skywalker: *That's not the Jedi way. He must live.*

Anakin protested that executing Palpatine in such a fashion was not the Jedi way.  Some may consider it hypocritical, but it could be part of his lingering regret from Palpatine convincing him to kill Dooku - and justifies it by saying the same thing Mace would say about killing him.

In fact, "Revenge of the Sith" is arguably laden with moments of Anakin showing his doubt in the fairness of the Jedi, compounded by various episodes of "The Clone Wars" (notably the Season 5 finale episodes).  Even if the Jedi were not wiped out in the Clone Wars, there is little doubt that the War had changed the Jedi to the extent that they could never be what they were ever again.  

In other words, Mace Windu broke the Jedi Code in front of Anakin, and it caused Anakin to just snap.


----------



## Bender (Feb 9, 2016)

@Catalyst

If Palpatine lived he'd corrupt more people. Remember he also corrupted Dooku and he was Qui-Gonn Jinn's teacher.


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## Catalyst75 (Feb 9, 2016)

Bender said:


> @Catalyst
> 
> If Palpatine lived he'd corrupt more people. Remember he also corrupted Dooku and he was Qui-Gonn Jinn's teacher.



Even with that being the case, Mace Windu went about it the wrong way - in fact, the way he went about it would be just as worse as what we got.  

If Mace Windu killed Palpatine right there and then, *how would the Senate react?*  How would the people of the Republic react to the news?  None except Palpatine's most loyal followers knew that Palpatine was, in fact, a Sith Lord.  To the people of the Republic, he was Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic that protected everyone from the Confederacy.

What would have the people of the Republic seen?  They would have seen the Jedi Order, their once just and righteous protectors, proclaiming they killed the Supreme Chancellor because he was apparently a Sith Lord, *a supposedly extinct group of Dark Side users,* and in the same breath taking control of the Senate "for a peaceful transition".  

Yes, if Palpatine had died, he wouldn't be able to corrupt more people, but the aftermath of his death would be enough to shatter the Republic.


----------



## Patchouli (Feb 9, 2016)

Watched in theaters like a month after release during matinee.

Dumb kid sat behind me and kicked my chair and cried the entire time.

10/10, would support The First Order if they promise to eradicate all parents who bring their kids to theaters.


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 9, 2016)

^man i feel you. sorry you had to go through that bro :\

i hate it when people bring their kids to the movies. if you haven't raised them to be disciplined yet, then why the fuck are you gonna bring em to a theater when you know they can't sit still and be quiet? smh

though tbh that's what you get for going to a matinee show. but people bring their kids even at night shows now so it probably wouldn't have been any different. 

i wish theaters had the balls to have a no kids/toddlers/babies rule after certain hours. obviously probably not for kids that are in elementary/middle school and are hopefully old enough to just be quiet. this is more for the toddlers that think the world revolves around em and shit. im pretty sure such a rule would get a lot of support from everybody. some parents might throw a fit but im pretty sure the rest of us outnumber em.


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## A. Waltz (Feb 9, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> When you look at how the Jedi were depicted to be flawed throughout the Prequel trilogy, it is believable in Anakin's case.  After all, Mace Windu's attempt to execute Palpatine went against the very code of the Jedi that he had been told he was supposed to follow, and we did in fact see scenes where Mace discussed how the Jedi would have to take over the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition once Palpatine was removed from power.
> 
> Also, this quote:
> 
> ...



exactly. these lines are much more complex than the what they're made out to be.

also, when anakin cuts off Windu's arm and Palpatine finishes him off, he realizes he just played a part in killing him. He realizes that he just fucked up big time and he's in such shock that he feels his best option is just to join Palpatine's side. The jedi would probably not have believed him if he told em the full story because they all suspected him. He was up against a wall and felt it was the only way left for him. He just broke the Jedi Code in a much more serious way than he had back when he murdered that village that killed his mother. That was under the rug, he was trying to get over that. Yet here he did it in the very Republic. That along with the Padme nightmares, he probably felt it was his best option to join Palpatine. He wouldn't be able to help or be with Padme if he were arrested for being involved with Windu's death. 

It was much more of a serious crime than what he had done up until then, but that speaks to the arrogance of the jedi. There was no repercussion for Anakin killing that sand people village (probably cuz nobody else knew, tbh) but going against a leader in the Jedi Council was serious shit. Yet the Council was there fighting a war and killing droids and people every day. 

As you said regarding The Clone Wars, the nature of the jedi had been inexplicably changed. There was no going back.


----------



## Bender (Feb 9, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Even with that being the case, Mace Windu went about it the wrong way - in fact, the way he went about it would be just as worse as what we got.
> 
> If Mace Windu killed Palpatine right there and then, *how would the Senate react?*  How would the people of the Republic react to the news?  None except Palpatine's most loyal followers knew that Palpatine was, in fact, a Sith Lord.
> 
> Yes, if Palpatine had died, he wouldn't be able to corrupt more people, but the aftermath of his death would be enough to shatter the Republic.




I think you're overthinking it.

Because of Padme's vouching for them the Jedi order would be able to convince the people and the rest of the Republic that Palpatine was evil. Not mention, Senator Organa they'd have all thr support to prove that they were in the right. Also Dooku had mentioned that a sith lord was controlling the senate.


----------



## Thespacelord (Feb 9, 2016)

found the trailer for episode 8

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]3HsaYulXfts[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Wan (Feb 9, 2016)

Catalyst75 said:


> Perhaps this video may help:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2BNdF_NCVQ&list=LLtUE9ceRWec_4PC-3c1BbQA&index=2[/YOUTUBE]



I'm open to the thought of the prequels being kind of clever in a way people might not usually think of, but A.  That does not redeem the movies on whole and B.  That does not make them "secretly brilliant".  Brilliance does not stay secret.  If something was brilliant, most people would be able to tell.  Like with episodes IV and V.



Catalyst75 said:


> When you look at how the Jedi were depicted to be flawed throughout the Prequel trilogy, it is believable in Anakin's case.  After all, Mace Windu's attempt to execute Palpatine went against the very code of the Jedi that he had been told he was supposed to follow, and we did in fact see scenes where Mace discussed how the Jedi would have to take over the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition once Palpatine was removed from power.
> 
> Also, this quote:
> 
> ...



No, I don't really buy this.  First of all, the "Jedi Code" is never really _defined_ in the prequels themselves.  The "there is no ignorance, there is knowledge" is nowhere to be found in the actual movies.  The few things we know about the Code are that it restricts older kids from being taken as Padawans, and that it restricts Jedi from romantic relationships.  So there's no real basis to say Mace Windu was breaking the Jedi Code, as portrayed in the movies, by putting an end to Palpatine,

Second, the idea that Anakin betrayed the Jedi because he thought it was somehow the _right thing to do_ goes counter to Anakin's arc up to that point, and counter to what we heard about his fall in the OT.  Vader was "seduced by the Dark Side of the force".  We see earlier in RotS that Palpatine was letting slip little hints of the _power_ that the Dark Side allowed -- the very power to create life.  Palpatine pushed Anakin to embrace his anger.  When Anakin finds out that Palpatine is a Sith Lord, or rather, the Sith Lord that has _been behind this entire war_, he goes and tells the Jedi, because he knows _that's_ the right thing to do.  He goes back and intervenes not because it's the right thing to do, but because he needs that power of the Dark Side to save Padme and that won't happen if Palpatine is killed.

So Anakin walks in -- he had to have walked right past the Jedi Masters lying dead on the floor, what did he think, that they all tripped and activated their lightsabers right through their chests? --and sees that Windu has apparently defeated Palpatine.  Palpatine resisted arrest, and was continuing to resist arrest.  Palpatine was a danger to the Jedi and the whole galaxy, Windu was pretty justified in killing him right there.  It's not the Jedi way?  And what, slicing off Windu's arm and letting Palpatine kill him _is_ the Jedi way?  I find it more plausible that Anakin was just trying to use the "Jedi way" as an excuse to get Windu to let Palpatine live than Anakin was actually right.

And then of course Anakin goes and slaughters childr -- I mean, _younglings_ -- and any moral high ground he could claim goes out the window.

I haven't watched the Clone Wars, but they really don't have a place in discussing the merits of the prequels as a film trilogy.



Catalyst75 said:


> Even with that being the case, Mace Windu went about it the wrong way - in fact, the way he went about it would be just as worse as what we got.
> 
> If Mace Windu killed Palpatine right there and then, *how would the Senate react?*  How would the people of the Republic react to the news?  None except Palpatine's most loyal followers knew that Palpatine was, in fact, a Sith Lord.  To the people of the Republic, he was Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of the Republic that protected everyone from the Confederacy.
> 
> ...



You can argue that Windu going straight to confront Palpatine before consulting with the whole Jedi Council wasn't the smartest move.  Then again, you could argue that Windu felt he had a limited window of opportunity -- Palpatine had just confessed to Anakin, if Windu left him alone too long he could escape off of Coruscant and out of the Jedi's reach.  In any case, doing what he thought was necessary to stop Palpatine was the morally right thing to do.  What he thought was necessary just might not have been the smartest thing.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 9, 2016)

^

From my perspective the Star War's Sage is about the force achieving balance. If you think about it had Anakin not turned to the darkside in ROS, the Jedi would have completely eradicated the Sith, and the "Light" would have completely over taken the dark throwing the force completely out of balance. Just like in the OT trilogy, as Snoke himself outlines in TFA, if Palpatine had succeeded in killing Luke the Darkside would have completely over taken the light, and the force would also be thrown out of balance. This isn't to say the Jedi was as evil as Palpatine, but both the Jedi and Palpatine serve as opposite ends of the same coin; I.E. extremist bent on eliminating their opposite. That's why Windu refuses to leave Palpatine alive or even consider it an option, because the darkside is evil and nothing good can come of it. Anakin on the other hand thought, whether mistakenly or otherwise that good could come from the darkside via saving Padme. But Anakin was forced to make a binary choice because Windu would not allow for anything else. Just like once Palpatine believes Luke is undoubtably a Jedi and will not fall to the darkside, he see's no other option but to eliminate Luke; and once again Anakin is force to make a binary choice between light and dark. But Anakin never wants to make that Binary choice, as in both OT and Prequels, he tries to work within a more grey area, but simply is not allowed to do so from outside forces.

 This struggle also will be at the heart of the new trilogy as well, which is why I believe Rey was probably the prior Leader of the Knights of Ren. That way like Anakin before her, she destroyed Luke's Jedi Temple, when the Light side was threatening to completely over take the Dark; and now she has joined the Resistance and is poised to destroy the First Order before the darkside completely over takes the Light. Also like Anakin she will have been trained in both the Light and Darksides of the force (Trained by Snoke originally, and now trained by Luke). However it will be up to Rey to avoid the same fate of Anakin, and find a much more real sense of balance; a grey path, rather than simply flipping from one extreme to another.

------

So in that way the Prequels do add something to the series, but the problem is the prequels really only focus on this major arc of the saga in handful of scenes and almost treat it as an after thought, when in reality it should have been the main focus of all three films. So they aren't secretly brilliant, they simply had a major issue with priorities and failed to convey their more important theme as vividly as say Anakin angsting over Padme.


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## Wan (Feb 9, 2016)

Turrin said:


> This struggle also will be at the heart of the new trilogy as well, which is why I believe Rey was probably the prior Leader of the Knights of Ren. That way like Anakin before her, she destroyed Luke's Jedi Temple, when the Light side was threatening to completely over take the Dark; and now she has joined the Resistance and is poised to destroy the First Order before the darkside completely over takes the Light. Also like Anakin she will have been trained in both the Light and Darksides of the force (Trained by Snoke originally, and now trained by Luke). However it will be up to Rey to avoid the same fate of Anakin, and find a much more real sense of balance; a grey path, rather than simply flipping from one extreme to another.



You had me nodding until you completely went off the rails here.   Rey's lived most of her life on Jakku -- she has the tally marks on her wall.  She's only 19 years old.  She saw in her vision when she was left on Jakku as a little girl.  It's conceivable that Rey was a student at Luke's academy, but was taken to Jakku after the massacre and somehow has no memory of that time at the academy (conceivable -- I still don't think it's a very good direction for the story to good with).  But prior leader of the Knights of Ren?  Lolwut?  Do the Knights of Ren accept toddlers as their leaders?


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## Turrin (Feb 9, 2016)

Wan said:


> You had me nodding until you completely went off the rails here.   Rey's lived most of her life on Jakku -- she has the tally marks on her wall.  She's only 19 years old.  It's conceivable that Rey was a student at Luke's academy, was taken to Jakku after the massacre and somehow has no memory of that time at the academy (conceivable -- I don't think it's a very good direction for the story to good with).  But prior leader of the Knights of Ren?  Lolwut?  Do the Knights of Ren accept toddlers as their leaders?


And why couldn't Rey have been the Leader of the Knights of Ren at 18, 17, 16, or even 15?

Anakin was like 18 in AoTC and likely skilled enough at that point to be Leader of the Knights of Ren as well, considering Kylo is far from completing his training as of TFA. So completely believable to me that an exceptionally talented Rey, trained by Snoke, would be capable of achieving Leader of the Knights of Ren, by a young age; especially if the Knights were weaker back then (which they likely were).

And Rey having Amnesia is basically a fact, if you use common sense, whether you like the film going in that direction or not.


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## Wan (Feb 9, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And why couldn't Rey have been the Leader of the Knights of Ren at 18, 17, 16, or even 15?



Because she was on Jakku at that age.



> And Rey having Amnesia is basically a fact, if you use common sense, whether you like the film going in that direction or not.



Like I said, it's conceivable that she was a student as a little girl and somehow has no memory.  But amnesia as recent as a few years?  No, that's malarkey.  It undermines a lot of what defines her character in the movie -- that she's been living on her own and having to fend for herself, her abandonment issues, etc.  And what would be the point of showing Rey being left on Jakku as a little girl in the vision if that's not what actually happened?  At the very least, the word "probably" has no place when talking about this theory.


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2016)

Wan said:


> Because she was on Jakku at that age.


And that's proven by what?



> Like I said, it's conceivable that she was a student as a little girl and somehow has no memory.  But amnesia as recent as a few years?  No, that's malarkey.  It undermines a lot of what defines her character in the movie -- that she's been living on her own and having to fend for herself, her abandonment issues, etc.  And what would be the point of showing Rey being left on Jakku as a little girl in the vision if that's not what actually happened?  At the very least, the word "probably" has no place when talking about this theory.


Nah, I think Rey was abandoned on Jakku, I just think that at some point she realized that her parents had abandoned her and weren't coming back; and then left Jakku to be trained by Snoke. Became leader of the Knights of Ren. Than some event happened where she lost her memories and she ended up back on Jakku again, once again reverting to her more child like self who is still holding out hope that her parents will return.

To me that actually explains why a 19 Year old girl would still not realize she's been abandoned and still expect her parents to come back.


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## A. Waltz (Feb 10, 2016)

im 19 and i would still wait for my parents
idk dont underestimate our youthfulness 
rey was portrayed as quite young/innocent too so idk


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> im 19 and i would still wait for my parents
> idk dont underestimate our youthfulness
> rey was portrayed as quite young/innocent too so idk


Rey lost her memories off her parents and how/why she was even on Jakku. So are you really saying you'd stay on Jakku barely getting by on scraps, for 19 years, waiting on some strangers, just because they are suppose to be your parents? Idk that test my suspension of disbelief pretty hard, especially when Rey was willing to give up being Han's co pilot, to go back to Jakuu and wait for said strangers.

Though I admit, that perhaps it's just me, and other people would continue to wait.


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## Wan (Feb 10, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And that's proven by what?



The fact that she says she's never been off planet before.



> Nah, I think Rey was abandoned on Jakku, I just think that at some point she realized that her parents had abandoned her and weren't coming back; and then left Jakku to be trained by Snoke. Became leader of the Knights of Ren. Than some event happened where she lost her memories and she ended up back on Jakku again, once again reverting to her more child like self who is still holding out hope that her parents will return.
> 
> To me that actually explains why a 19 Year old girl would still not realize she's been abandoned and still expect her parents to come back.



That's incredibly convoluted and there isn't a shred of evidence for this in the actual movie (or the novelization, which I read).

Also

>says something strains suspension of disbelief
>suggests a highschooler was the leader of an order that slaughtered Jedi and made Luke Skywalker go into hiding instead
>and doesn't remember all of this because reasons


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2016)

Wan said:


> The fact that she says she's never been off planet before.


I think Amnesia very easily explains this. In-fact we can say w/ almost 100% certainty that Rey had been to at least one other planet before being abandoned on Jakku.



> That's incredibly convoluted


Is it really any more convoluted than the leaps we need to take in-order to believe Rey is Luke's Daughter, which is the most popular theory? Because that also requires amnesia and extremely convoluted reasoning on Luke's behalf for leaving his 6-7 year old daughter in the hands of some seedy junk dealer; and so on.



> here isn't a shred of evidence for this in the actual movie (or the novelization, which I read).


There's actually plenty of evidence, I could post my like 5 page essay i'v been working on, on the theory here if you want.



> >says something strains suspension of disbelief
> >suggests a highschooler was the leader of an order that slaughtered Jedi and made Luke Skywalker go into hiding instead


Huh? Nowhere to my knowledge was it stated that Luke was afraid of the Knights of Ren. Pretty sure Luke would decimate them, unless the other Knights are all stronger than Kylo, which wouldn't make much sense.

And the idea that a highschooler could become a highly skilled force user is an already established concept in the series via anakin and luke. So whether it tested my suspension of disbelief or not, doesn't matter because I know it's possible for Rey to be highly skilled at that age.

Edit: For that matter, can you tell me why Rey would be incapable of doing what she did in TFA in terms of force development at the age of 15? Because it's not like Yoda trained her in TFA, she just was manifesting abilities on the fly.



> and doesn't remember all of this because reasons


We already know she has Amnesia cause reasons. I'm just adjusting the timing of when she suffers said Amnesia.


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## Wan (Feb 10, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I think Amnesia very easily explains this. In-fact we can say w/ almost 100% certainty that Rey had been to at least one other planet before being abandoned on Jakku.



Then prove she has amnesia.  And going to another planet before being left on Jakku kind of goes without saying.



> Is it really any more convoluted than the leaps we need to take in-order to believe Rey is Luke's Daughter, which is the most popular theory? Because that also requires amnesia and extremely convoluted reasoning on Luke's behalf for leaving his 6-7 year old daughter in the hands of some seedy junk dealer; and so on.



I don't like the theory that Rey is Luke's daughter either, but it least it doesn't involve conjuring a stint off-planet for Rey where she became 

For the record, the theory I like most, if there has to be theories, is that Rey is related to Obi-wan.  Other than that, I would prefer if Rey was just Rey, or her parents, even if they're important, be new characters entirely themselves.



> There's actually plenty of evidence, I could post my like 5 page essay i'v been working on, on the theory here if you want.



Alright, go ahead then.



> Huh? Nowhere to my knowledge was it stated that Luke was afraid of the Knights of Ren. Pretty sure Luke would decimate them, unless the other Knights are all stronger than Kylo, which wouldn't make much sense.



If Luke wasn't avoiding confronting the Knights of Ren, why did he go into hiding in the first place?

Why wouldn't it make sense?  Ren is not the leader of the Knights of Ren himself, he's just a member.



> And the idea that a highschooler could become a highly skilled force user is an already established concept in the series via anakin and luke. So whether it tested my suspension of disbelief or not, doesn't matter because I know it's possible for Rey to be highly skilled at that age.
> 
> Edit: For that matter, can you tell me why Rey would be incapable of doing what she did in TFA in terms of force development at the age of 15? Because it's not like Yoda trained her in TFA, she just was manifesting abilities on the fly.



We're not talking about Force ability.  We're talking about _leadership_, which is not the same thing.  It strains my suspension of disbelief that a high schooler would be made the leader of an elite order, let alone lead it effectively, much harder than the idea that Rey would have abandonment issues over being left on Jakku as a little girl and being told she has to wait for her parents to come back.



> We already know she has Amnesia cause reasons. I'm just adjusting the timing of when she suffers said Amnesia.



We don't _know_ that Rey has amnesia, contrary to what the Internet might want you to believe.  Rey having amnesia is an unproven theory itself.


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## A. Waltz (Feb 10, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Rey lost her memories off her parents and how/why she was even on Jakku. So are you really saying you'd stay on Jakku barely getting by on scraps, for 19 years, waiting on some strangers, just because they are suppose to be your parents? Idk that test my suspension of disbelief pretty hard, especially when Rey was willing to give up being Han's co pilot, to go back to Jakuu and wait for said strangers.
> 
> Though I admit, that perhaps it's just me, and other people would continue to wait.



when was it said that she lost her memories? just cuz they don't show us her memories of her family and of her 19 years there doesn't mean they're lost memories, the movie is 2 hours, they don't have time to show us every little detail

they left when she was young, she probably didn't know why (as in was too young to comprehend why) and of course people don't exactly remember every single detail of things that happened when they were <10 years old. sure it was an important event but that doesn't mean she'll remember everything exactly nor that she even understood it. confusion of an event makes it even less likely for her to remember things correctly.

the way i saw it, she knew they weren't coming back but was still too shaken and was still trying to hold on hope that they would return. she was living in delusion and that's part of her character growth story. she was so lonely and lost, she felt she had nothing else to do but wait. she was really hurting.


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## Kuromaku (Feb 10, 2016)

Why do people keep saying that the story should go in a Grey direction? Again, there is no grey side. There is the proper, balanced (Taoist) approach that the Jedi increasingly failed to properly uphold (helped in no small part by Sheev's machinations), and the imbalanced, cancerous approach of the Sith. There's no gray in anything. You do a bad thing for what you believe to be a good cause, you're just kidding yourself because you've officially taken your first steps toward the Dark Side. That's the whole point of Anakin's fall, regardless of how questionably it was executed.

It's the whole point of ROTJ's ending. Luke is increasingly tempted throughout the movie, as displayed by his outfit and the anger Sheev provokes from him. It's why the music is so mournful when he lets loose and beats Vader down. The moment of Luke's victory is that even at the darkest point, when he's tempted to become a new Sith apprentice, he chooses instead to sacrifice himself for his father, solidifying himself as a Jedi.

It's that fucking simple, FFS. In case you haven't noticed, SW is a simple story with binary morality. There's good and there's evil. Han Solo was a rogue, but he turned out to be a good guy at the end of ANH. No ambiguity.

Hell, you can even interpret the Jedi becoming more corrupted over the course of the wars, as well as Obi-Wan and Yoda attempting to manipulate Luke for their own ends as symbolic of their being flawed champions of the Force and the Jedi ways. Luke's decisions once he has all the knowledge of the situation not only make clear that he has surpassed Vader as a warrior, but also his mentors as what a Jedi should be. Standard Hero's Journey.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 10, 2016)

> Obi-Wan and Yoda attempting to manipulate Luke for their own ends


now you're pushing it


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## Kuromaku (Feb 10, 2016)

Weiss said:


> now you're pushing it



Pushing it? That was pointed out in the movies themselves. Part of the drama from the twist in ESB stemmed from Luke realizing that 'Ben' hadn't filled him in entirely, and had in fact outright concealed the truth when asked. Obi-Wan even brings up the whole "certain point of view" argument once he meets with Luke in ROTJ. Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted to take down the Empire and restore the Jedi, and they were willing to give Luke only enough to fight the Sith and the Empire without him having to worry about the issue of possibly killing his own father. Watch ROTJ and see how the two mentors respond to Luke on Dagobah. They preferred a certain result, but with Luke not entirely sure about what he wanted to do, the Sith were once again poised for victory.


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2016)

@Wan

Just going to post my long ass theory, though it's not entirely complete yet, but I still think it shows my thought process and answers a-lot of your questions:


*Spoiler*: __ 



One of the major elements of the Star Wars franchise was the huge twist in Empire Strikes back that Vader was Luke's father. If Disney is truly trying to recapture the magic of the original series, it stands to reason, that they would want to incorporate a major twist into the new trilogy. And while many believe Luke being Rey's father is the twist that the sequel will ultimately reveal, to me that isn't much of a twist at all, rather it's exactly what any fan of the franchise would expect after watching TFA. So at least in my mind, that simply does not qualify as a real twist to match Vader being Luke's father.

This brings me to my theory on Rey's identity, and while the title may give away the core concept I wish to delve deeper here into what I mean and provide the multiple points of evidence I believe were intentionally hidden within TFA to support this theory:

So let's outline the main concept of the theory. It's my belief that Rey was previously the founding member and leader of the Knights of Ren, and that she killed Luke’s daughter alongside the other Knights of Ren. And it's in that moment that some crazy force magic causes Rey’s memories to become distorted and muddled.

Now let’s get into how this seemingly crazy idea actually makes a whole lot of sense.

Rey must have Amnesia otherwise none of the popular theories for who her parents are make sense.:

Now the easy assumption, and the one I believe the film proactively tries to mislead viewers into believing is that Rey being ditched on Jakku at a young age is the reason she doesn’t know the specifics of her parents or possibly even real name (As it’s strongly hinted at in Rey’s survival guide that she named herself “Rey” after Captain Raeh). However, that simply doesn’t add up; as Rey was not a baby when dropped off on Jakku, rather in her vision she was at least 6-7 years old. And while I may not remember much from when I was 6-7, I can at least remember major broad strokes things, like say idk, what my real name was and who my parents are (especially if my family is legendary like the skywalkers): 


So to me the only explanation, besides poor writing, is that Rey’s memories are somehow altered or distorted. This is further supported by Rey’s Survival Guide where Rey states that she doesn’t know how or why she ended up on Jakku. A Kid not knowing the reason why her parents dumped her on Jakku is understandable, but not knowing the how is not possible, unless she has amnesia:




Rey Isn’t Luke’s Daughter:
There are many events in the film that strongly support the theory that Rey is a skywalker and Luke’s daughter, so much so that even I must admit it’s a very real possibility, but many of these events can be viewed through a different perspective, that may instead lend more credence a differing origin for Rey.

The first piece of evidence used to suggest that Rey is related to Luke is her being left on planet similar to tatooine. This superficially makes sense, but when considered in greater detail, it simply doesn’t hold up. When Obi Wan left Luke, he stayed close by to watch over him and protect him from the Empire, he also left Luke with people who actually cared about Luke’s well being. Rey on the other hand was left with some seedy junk dealer. This could be simply sloppy writing, but it doesn’t seem IC for Luke to leave his only daughter in this state or any of his friends or family to allow such a thing to happen. Additionally, while people cite Maz’s words as a reason for why Luke is Rey’s father, in my humble opinion, Maz’s words actually depict exactly the opposite:

" ...You already know the truth … Whoever you were waiting for on Jakku, they’re never coming back. But there’s someone who still can: Luke.”

Maz’s words seem to indicate that Rey’s Parents are different individuals than Luke, and Rey knows deep down that they have indeed abandoned her and aren’t coming back, but that she could find a foster parent of sorts in Luke.  Given this rather than Rey being the fated long lost daughter of Luke, it seems more likely that Rey was born to bunch of low class nobodies that ended up selling her off to Unkar Plutt. 

Most people have noticed Rey’s immediate aptitude with the force, citing it as a reason why Rey must come from a notable family like the skylwalkers. However, I don’t think this quite follows, as Ben Solo (Kylo Ren) comes from the skywalker family himself, but even he did not demonstrate the natural force skills that Rey had. It’s one thing for Rey to be talented, but it’s a whole other thing for her to be vastly more talented than even skywalker like Kylo who was trained by both Luke and Snoke. However, if we considered the option that Rey, was trained in the ways of the force before she lost her memories and perhaps was more advanced than Kylo at that time, than her body is instinctively remembering her prior training and allowing her to perform at such a high level makes sense. 

Which brings us to another point, as TFA plot progresses the main story arc appears to be Rey learning about the force for the first time, and as she begins to learn more about it, she slowly becomes more powerful until she finally is able to out match Kylo, albeit weakened Kylo, in a lightsaber duel. But is the story really about Rey discovering the force for the first time, or is it about Rey rediscovering her lost memories. Let’s keep in mind Obi Wan’s words “these are your first steps”, appear to be implying this was Rey’s first usage of the force; however, it seems very unlikely to me that Rey’s ability to pilot the Falcon wasn’t in many ways assisted by her connection to the force. It’s also stated in the film that she’s had vision of the island Luke is on at the end of the movie in her dreams, well before she makes her way to Maz’s castle. Than there is also her seemingly usage of the force in the timing of closing the door to save fin from the release monsters on Han’s ship. So it seems dubious at best that her first interaction with the force was her vision. But if instead Obi Wan’s words meant that this was Rey’s first steps to get her memory back, that makes a bit more sense, because the main focus of the vision was Rey’s past. So rather than Rey slowly becoming more skilled as she is exposed more to the force, it seems more likely that Rey is becoming more skilled as various events begin to jog her memory (as well as using the force), which adds further support to the idea that Rey was a skilled force user in the past whose recovering her powers, rather than being a latent genius skywalker.

Additionally, Rey’s revulsion and fear, at being offered Luke’s old Lightsaber, could also possibly be a hint at the fact that Rey once wielded the force herself, and fears what she is capable off it (Falling to the Darkside). Versus if Rey was Luke’s Daughter, you’d expect her to get a warm and fuzzy feeling for her father’s old blade.

The next thing people cite as evidence that Rey is a skywalker is the fact that both her and Ren seem to feel an instinctive connection with each other, that hints at them being relatives. However, if Rey was once the Leader of the Knights of Ren, that connection as well as her knowing how exactly to get at Ren best (taunting him about never measuring up to Vader) would also make sense. Now of course the counter argument is that if Pre-Amnesia Rey, was indeed the leader of the knights of Ren, then Kylo should immediately recognize her, but I do not think this is necessarily a death blow to the theory, as the Knights of Ren all appear to be heavily clad in armor and masks, and if the masks are anything like Klyo’s they would distort their voices significantly; and if a great trauma caused Rey’s memories to become distorted the way she present herself and her overall feeling to Ren may be drastically different than before. Thus explaining why Ren would feel a connection between them, but not know exactly what that connection is.

Finally, there is Rey’s connection to Luke. She see’s him in dreams, is drawn to him, and Luke seemingly recognizing Rey. However, let’s look at this from another perspective. Rey could be drawn to Luke and see him in her dreams, out of guilt, guilt over the fact that she killed Luke’s Daughter when she was enlisted in the Knights of Ren. While many people suspect that the grave near Luke is that of Rey’s mother and Luke’s wife, the tiny size of the grave makes it seem more like it’s the grave of a child. In-fact it may be that when Kira struck down Luke’s child some of Luke’s child memories were passed onto her via the force and this also draws her to Luke. This would explain Luke’s reaction to Rey’ appearance:

“kindness in his eyes, but there’s something tortured, too.” He “doesn’t need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here.”
“His look says it all,” the script says.
The lightsaber that Rey pulls from her pack is “An offer. A plea. The galaxy’s only hope.”
“HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER’S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise of an adventure, just beginning…”
Luke’s reaction tells us that he knows who Rey is and he is conflicted (to the point of being tortured) by her appearance. Now his conflict could be his guilt over abandoning his daughter on Jakku or that she is now becoming involved in Jedi affairs something he never wanted for her. However, his reaction would be equally applicable if thanks to being more Intune with the force then Kylo, he was immediately able to tell that Rey was the past Leader of the Knights of Ren, who killed his Daughter. He would have kindness in his face because he also knows that Rey has forgotten this and reverted back to her purer self, but tortured because the one who murdered his daughter is standing in-front of him. 

 Rey’s Connection to the Darkside and Possible Hints at Her Being the Leader of the Knights of Ren:

The Art Of Star Wars: The Force Awakens, reveals that Rey’s original name was “Kira”.  Now it’s possible that this was simply a code name for the character before she her name was finalized as “Rey”, but considering the whole Captain Raeh thing and her amnesia, it’s very possible that “Kira” is suppose to be Rey’s real name in the film. However regardless of which scenario turns out to be true, there is obviously meaning behind the fact that her name was once “Kira”. The Star Wars franchise has always been inspired primarily by Japanese media and so too the name “Kira” clearly has Japanese routes to it. And in Japanese Kira when spelled in Katakana can be pronounced as the English word “Killer”. This play on words was used most famously in the series Death Note, a popular Japanese anime, where Yagami Light’s murdering alter ego received the title of “Kira”. So when I hear that Rey’s Name was originally “Kira”, I can’t help but associate it with the idea of “Killer”. And it makes me wonder if the writers had a similar thought and gave her the name/code-name “Kira” as hint towards Rey’s true nature. And while you could certainly say it’s there to hint at Rey eventually falling to the darkside, I don’t think we’d see another trilogy where the journey is off the main protagonist becoming a killer, but rather more interesting would be the protagonist having been a killer in the past; and this again fits with star wars drawing inspiration from Japanese media, like Samurai X, where we have a master Samurai that was once the most deadly killer alive, and than tries to take a vow to never kill anyone ever again.  Or her code-name is “Kira” because she was envision as the one to kill Luke’s real daughter

Moving on from discussing a first name, let’s talk about a last name, notable the last name “Ren”, which is given to all of the Knights of “Ren”. Most people assume that they are given this title due to their service to Kylo, but problem with that is Kylo Ren is not really Kylo Ren, but rather Ben Solo, so obviously someone also bestowed the title of Ren onto Ben Solo, and the question is why and where did this title came from. If the title was Darth than it would be following the traditions of the sith, or if it commander Kylo, it would also fit as it could allude to the fact that he’s just under Supreme Commander Snoke. But “Ren”, where did that come from? The only thing in my mind that makes sense, given the info we have currently, is that “Ren” was the actual name of the original leader of the Knights of Ren, hence why Ben was also bestowed the title. This at least hints at the idea that their may have been Leader of the Knights of Ren before Kylo; and could that leader have perhaps been Rey aka “Kira Ren”?

Moving on from that let’s consider another interesting aspect of Rey’s character, her accent. In the film the actor who plays Rey is allowed to keep her distinctly English accent. This is an odd choice, considering none of the skywalkers have ever had an English accent, nor do the native citizens of Jakku seem to have this accent. So it seems dubious to me that Ridely wouldn’t be instructed to learn a more Americanized accent if Rey’s character was really suppose to be a skywalker. However, one character in the film does seem to have a more proper British accent and this character is Snoke. Possibly hinting at Rey’s connection to Snoke.

This isn’t the only time this connection is hinted ether. In the official script for TFA, after Rey bests Kylo in their duel, she is about to strike him down, but manages to hold back as she feels if she were to go through with it, she’d be consumed by the darkside. That alone hints at Rey’s connection to the darkside, but even more interesting is the fact that Rey apparently hears Snoke’s voice in her head telling her to “Kill him”. Now ether Snoke is nigh omniscient and can invade the minds of others clear across the galaxy, which seems like a bit much even for the main evil force in the movie, or in that moment when Rey is about to strike down Kylo and enter the darkside, she is recalling her past training from Snoke, where he almost certainly commanded her to kill someone many times before. 

Also let’s consider another aspect of First Order Storm troopers. It’s remarked in the film that they are condition from a young age to be absolutely loyal to the First Oder. This is why many people assume Finn could have some latent force powers himself for being able to resist this conditioning. If Snoke believes in such conditioning on his less troupes, I must imagine that he employees steep conditioning on his main pupils, such as the Knights of Ren. We see this in Snoke’s manipulation of Kylo to get him to kill his own father in the TFA. This mental manipulation could explain the reason for Rey’s amnesia in TFA, as if she was heavily conditions and deep in the clutches of the darkside, that coming face to face with something that challenged those notions and greatly disturbed her, like the events surrounding the death of Luke’s daughter, could indeed explain her total mental break down.

Moving on again, let’s consider Rey’s character. If one thinks about it Rey’s life in TFA mirrors Anakin’s life much more than Luke’s. As previously discussed Luke was also left on desert planet, but he was left with real care takers and had fairly good upbringing. In contrast both Anakin and Rey were sold to junk dealers and had to muddle through junk barely making enough to survive. In that sense Rey is much more closely paralleled with Anakin. There are more parallels of course, but I won’t go too far into them as many theories on Rey being Luke’s daughter and Rey being Anakin’s reincarnation cover those in detail. However, since I’ve already went into detail about how I do not think Rey is Luke’s daughter or a skywalker, so instead I want to examine why the writers would draw this parallel between Anakin and Rey, if there is no family relationship between her and the skywalkers. Well firstly the obvious is to serve as a red hairing that Rey is skywalker, however in my opinion there needs to be a reason within the plot for this parallel beyond it being a simple red haring. To me that reason could be the fact that Rey like Anakin was also manipulated by a dark lord failing to darkside prior to suffering her Amnesia, and than also like Anakin had a rebirth into the light-side, after her darkside “died” (though in Rey’s case it was the metaphoric death of “Kira-Ren” and her rebirth as Rey). Rather than Rey being a literal reincarnation of the chosen one and connected that way, she has an emotional connection to the chosen one (Vadar) by suffering similar circumstances and having a similar relationship to the force.


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## Wan (Feb 11, 2016)

Thanks for posting that Turrin.  It's clear you've put a lot of of thought and effort into this.  Unfortunately, I'm still not really buying any of it.

First, you're predicating your theory on the thought that Rey "must" have amnesia.  As I've said before, there is no "must" to this.  Rey having amnesia is a theory itself, not directly proven by evidence.  Rey having amnesia is not something that needs explaining, nor is it something that can support other theories.  I don't have Rey's Survival Guide, but I'd need to see for myself if she really doesn't remember her own name somehow.  An exact quote.  This idea is not presented in the movie itself (or the novelization), so it can't really be be presented as evidence "hidden in the movie".  A kid not remembering -- or not understanding -- why they're being left behind by their family at the age of 7 is entirely possible. A. Waltz explained that pretty well.

And you really don't present an argument against that.  You basically just accuse it of "bad writing" as if that's enough to dismiss it.  If that's the case, then I can just dismiss _your_ theory (and most theories about Rey's past and family), because I think it would be pretty terrible, convoluted writing if the story went in the direction you're claiming it is.  And I don't think that Rey not remembering why she was left on Jakku, and clinging to the belief that her family will come back one day is particularly implausible or bad writing.  In fact, I think it's pretty interesting and humanizing for her character.

I actually agree with you that there are indications in the movie that Rey's family is separate from Luke Skywalker, particularly how Maz refers to them separately.  But I don't think that arguing against the "Rey is Luke's daughter" theory somehow gives evidence to your theory.

Rey's aptitude for the Force is not somehow _evidence_ for your theory.  It's long been a theme in Star Wars that certain people are "strong in the Force", and can manifest Force abilities without training ( for example, Anakin being able to pod race was a sign of Jedi reflexes).  And fantastic feats can be pulled off with minimal knowledge or training (such as Luke guiding the torpedoes into the Death Star's exhaust vent).  So Rey's ability with the Force is not something that needs explaining beyond her simply being strong in the Force, and hearing about it from Han, Maz, and Ren "awakening" her to her own potential.  And if you respond with "But that would be bad writing!", that's not objective evidence for your theory, and your theory would be bad, convoluted writing anyways so it's not an improvement.

Now, the idea that there's already a connection between Luke and Rey.  It's possible.  But that possibility isn't evidence for your theory, because there are alternatives.  Rey could have been a student at Luke's academy, and was taken away for safety from the Knights of Ren as a little girl when the massacre happened (we don't have an exact time frame on the massacre).  Luke could have had a Force premonition about Rey coming to him.  Luke could simply be very intuitive and figured out why she's there, to train with him.  All these possibilities would need to be eliminated in order to give your theory evidence.

As for Rey's original name:  It's not her name, not in the actual movie.  So strictly speaking, this is not evidence from the movie.  And it's just a name, nothing _requires_ that there be a greater meaning behind it.  Star Wars has been inspired -- not primarily inspired, but still inspired -- by Japanese media, sure.  And?  This is not evidence, this is speculation.

As for her accent, this again is not something that needs an explanation.  Kind of a recurring theme here.  And even if it does somehow need an explanation, there are alternatives -- maybe her accent has to do with being related to Obi-wan Kenobi.  So either way, her accent isn't somehow evidence for your theory.

Moving on to Rey besting Ren.  Yes, at the end, she does feel an urge to kill him from the Dark Side.  It's not explicit in the movie, but it is explicit in the novelization.  The novelization doesn't identify it as Snoke's voice though, I'm not sure what the script says.  The Dark Side is always a temptation for a Jedi -- as I recall, Obi-wan was tempted to tap into the Dark Side in his fight with Maul, according to TPM's novelization.  So this is again not something that needs explaining beyond that, and it could even be taken as more evidence of a connection to Obi-wan than your convoluted theory about her being trained by Snoke, becoming leader of the Knights of Ren as a highschooler, being the actual person behind the massacre of Luke's Jedi, and somehow losing her memory and winding up back on Jakku.  But let's say it was Snoke's voice (though I have yet to see evidence for that).  Why couldn't it have just been Snoke reaching out with Force telepathy across the galaxy?  That doesn't seem particularly implausible for a powerful Dark Side user; in fact, it sounds kind of awesome.  In any case, it's certainly possible, so again, it's not evidence for your theory specifically.

And finally, the parallels you draw between Rey and Anakin.  I'd say there are parallels between all three, Rey, Luke, and Anakin, but not for any specific story reason.  It's because they're characters in the  , starting from small, mundane beginnings.  This is, yet again, not something that somehow needs explaining.  Even if we accept that there are specific parallels between Rey and Anakin, that wouldn't be evidence for your theory, because last I checked Anakin did not train under a Dark Lord to start with when he was 16 and become a leader of an elite Dark Side order without being a hero beforehand, and then get his memory wiped at any point.  He started as a hero, and became a villain. So if the parallels between Rey and Anakin can be used as evidence for anything, it's that Rey is going to fall to the Dark Side.  Which is entirely possible -- I don't think she's going to _stay_ on the Dark Side, but she could fall temporarily at some point.   But it has nothing to do with her past, because she's not even to the point where Anakin himself fell to the dark side.

So yeah.  Tl;dr your theory "explains" a bunch of things that don't need explaining, and saying the story we've been given so far in the movie would be bad writing is meaningless because your theory would itself be awful, pointlessly convoluted writing.  There is no actual evidence involved here.


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## A. Waltz (Feb 11, 2016)

Also, Rey having amnesia would detract from her character growth which was one of the main points of Episode VII. 

She's already left out of most Ep VII toys and merchandising, I doubt they would retcon her growth with "oh she had amnesia." They already got a shit ton of backlash for the toy thing, now I doubt they'd do something as awful as detract from her character like that. They'd get backlash from that, too.


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## RAGING BONER (Feb 11, 2016)

memories can be removed and altered via the force; one of the best SW games is based on this premise.


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## A. Waltz (Feb 11, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> memories can be removed and altered via the force; one of the best SW games is based on this premise.



what game is that?


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## Wan (Feb 11, 2016)

A. Waltz said:


> what game is that?



Knights of the Old Republic.  The context is entirely different though.


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## Turrin (Feb 11, 2016)

Wan said:


> Thanks for posting that Turrin.  It's clear you've put a lot of of thought and effort into this.  Unfortunately, I'm still not really buying any of it.
> First, you're predicating your theory on the thought that Rey "must" have amnesia.  As I've said before, there is no "must" to this.  Rey having amnesia is a theory itself, not directly proven by evidence.  Rey having amnesia is not something that needs explaining, nor is it something that can support other theories.  I don't have Rey's Survival Guide, but I'd need to see for myself if she really doesn't remember her own name somehow.  An exact quote.  This idea is not presented in the movie itself (or the novelization), so it can't really be be presented as evidence "hidden in the movie".  A kid not remembering -- or not understanding -- why they're being left behind by their family at the age of 7 is entirely possible. A. Waltz explained that pretty well.


I feel as if I already answered this complaint in the theory, so I'm just going to repost what I said in case you missed it:

"A Kid not knowing the reason why her parents dumped her on Jakku is understandable,* but not knowing the how is not possible*, unless she has amnesia"

As far as evidence goes here:


And I never said all the evidence is in movie, I said it's almost a certainty that Rey suffers from amnesia, given the evidence. Rey's survival guide provides a large piece of that evidence, which should not be ignored imo.



> And you really don't present an argument against that. You basically just accuse it of "bad writing" as if that's enough to dismiss it. If that's the case, then I can just dismiss your theory (and most theories about Rey's past and family), because I think it would be pretty terrible, convoluted writing if the story went in the direction you're claiming it is. And I don't think that Rey not remembering why she was left on Jakku, and clinging to the belief that her family will come back one day is particularly implausible or bad writing. In fact, I think it's pretty interesting and humanizing for her character.


Their's subjective bad writing, like opinions on story twists. There is objective bad writing as in Rey magically not knowing how she got to Jakku. I must assume going into this that Objective bad writing isn't a thing, in-order to formulate the theory, if it is admittedly the theory could be wrong. Beyond that you seem to be focusing on the "why" even though I already said it's understandable that she doesn't know "why", and that wasn't my point, but rather the not knowing the "how".



> I actually agree with you that there are indications in the movie that Rey's family is separate from Luke Skywalker, particularly how Maz refers to them separately. But I don't think that arguing against the "Rey is Luke's daughter" theory somehow gives evidence to your theory.


I think it's obvious that Rey has some mysterious past that is tied to the large plot. If she's not a skywalker, it begs the question who she is as well as what twists can fit within the context of the events of the TFA. I believe I did a good job outlining why my theory is able to fit, and that's really all my objective is, not to say it is thee only theory plausible. Fuck I still think Luke being Rey's father is plausible despite all the evidence I brought forward to discount it.



> Rey's aptitude for the Force is not somehow evidence for your theory. It's long been a theme in Star Wars that certain people are "strong in the Force", and can manifest Force abilities without training ( for example, Anakin being able to pod race was a sign of Jedi reflexes). And fantastic feats can be pulled off with minimal knowledge or training (such as Luke guiding the torpedoes into the Death Star's exhaust vent). So Rey's ability with the Force is not something that needs explaining beyond her simply being strong in the Force, and hearing about it from Han, Maz, and Ren "awakening" her to her own potential. And if you respond with "But that would be bad writing!", that's not objective evidence for your theory, and your theory would be bad, convoluted writing anyways so it's not an improvement.


Rey being strong with the force could be a plausible answer, I have no problem with that. However she'd need to be stronger w/ the force than even someone like Luke by a mile. Luke was naturally gifted in ANH, but even he demonstrated nothing near the skills Rey did. So I tend to think there is a reason within the plot as to why Rey is so talent w/ the force. Now is Rey being trained in the force, forgetting her training the only possible answer, no, and I never asserted such, but it would plausibly answer why she is so good. Again my objective here is not to prove my theory w/o a shadow of a doubt, as I don't think that is possible with the current evidence on the table, it's only to show that my theory is possible.



> Now, the idea that there's already a connection between Luke and Rey. It's possible. But that possibility isn't evidence for your theory, because there are alternatives. Rey could have been a student at Luke's academy, and was taken away for safety from the Knights of Ren as a little girl when the massacre happened (we don't have an exact time frame on the massacre). Luke could have had a Force premonition about Rey coming to him. Luke could simply be very intuitive and figured out why she's there, to train with him. All these possibilities would need to be eliminated in order to give your theory evidence.


Cool, again my objective here isn't to disprove every theory but my own, but to show that my theory also can fit. And it does explain the connection between Luke and Rey.



> As for Rey's original name: It's not her name, not in the actual movie. So strictly speaking, this is not evidence from the movie. And it's just a name, nothing requires that there be a greater meaning behind it. Star Wars has been inspired -- not primarily inspired, but still inspired -- by Japanese media, sure. And? This is not evidence, this is speculation.


All theories invite speculation, so saying speculation, is meaningless to me. The point is it's speculation worth considering, given where the film draws inspiration from.



> s for her accent, this again is not something that needs an explanation. Kind of a recurring theme here. And even if it does somehow need an explanation, there are alternatives -- maybe her accent has to do with being related to Obi-wan Kenobi. So either way, her accent isn't somehow evidence for your theory.


I repeat, my objective isn't to disprove every theory in existence, my objective is to show evidence for why my theory can fit and explain some of the things in the series. Operative word being "can", I accept alternatives explanations.



> Moving on to Rey besting Ren. Yes, at the end, she does feel an urge to kill him from the Dark Side. It's not explicit in the movie, but it is explicit in the novelization. The novelization doesn't identify it as Snoke's voice though, I'm not sure what the script says. The Dark Side is always a temptation for a Jedi -- as I recall, Obi-wan was tempted to tap into the Dark Side in his fight with Maul, according to TPM's novelization


The audio book says it's Snoke:




> Why couldn't it have just been Snoke reaching out with Force telepathy across the galaxy? That doesn't seem particularly implausible for a powerful Dark Side user; in fact, it sounds kind of awesome. In any case, it's certainly possible, so again, it's not evidence for your theory specifically.


I personally find it more plausible that Rey is recalling a memory there, than Snoke being that ungodly powerful. But that is up to each person to decided for themselves, as I repeat my objective here isn't to disprove every other theory, it's to show that my theory can fit.



> So yeah. Tl;dr your theory "explains" a bunch of things that don't need explaining, and saying the story we've been given so far in the movie would be bad writing is meaningless because your theory would itself be awful, pointlessly convoluted writing. There is no actual evidence involved here.


I don't mean to be rude man, but I feel like you are employing some pretty serious double standards in the way your bashing my theory, but than saying certain things don't need to be explained.

For example you attack my theory for the idea that Rey could become Leader of the Knights of Ren sometime between15-17,  but in the same breath write off Rey's insanely rapid development with the force in TFA which takes place over a matter of days (maybe weeks), as her simply being strong with the force... 

If someone strong w/ the force can achieve Rey's skill in several days (even weeks), than it seems like double standard that you are than implying someone strong w/ the force, trained by Snoke, and had several years of combat training, couldn't achieve the rank of Leader of the Knights of Ren.

If we can accept Rey is just strong w/ the force as an explanation for her achievements in TFA, we should be able to accept Rey is just strong w/ the force as an explanation for her becoming skilled enough to be the leader of the Knights of Ren.

Than you consistently attack my theory in this post for the fact that there are other plausible explanation to the points I raise, while in the same breath have stated that you willing to buy into the theory that Rey is related to Obi Wan, which I know for a fact that all the main point raised in that theory can be explained in alternative means as well. So again if you can accept this in the case of Obi Wan theory, doesn't seem fair that I am somehow held to a completely different standard, and must disprove all other possibility for every point I raise.

You also stated that Rey could have been trained by Luke at the Jedi temple, which also requires Rey to have Anmesia, but than in the same breath accuse my theory for requiring the same exact thing, with thee only change being timing. Rey suffers Amnesia sometime on Jakku in the she was previously trained as a Jedi theory and in mine suffers Amnesia sometime later in her life. Again if you can accept Anmesia in that case as plausible, than it's unfair that you discounting my theory for relying on that exact same plot device.

It's just hard for me to take your criticism seriously, when I see you allowing the exact same points to fly by, when considering other theories or ideas. It just seems like the main problem here is that you don't like the idea, rather than having anything really constructive to say against the idea.



Wan said:


> Knights of the Old Republic.  The context is entirely different though.


How is the context different? My theory also relies on the effects of the force on someone's mind. Fuck Luke could have even mind wiped Rey and dropped her off on Jakku again, instead of killing her, after besting her and the Knights of Ren. Which would be pretty much the exact same thing as what happened to Revan.


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## Wan (Feb 11, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I feel as if I already answered this complaint in the theory, so I'm just going to repost what I said in case you missed it:
> 
> "A Kid not knowing the reason why her parents dumped her on Jakku is understandable,* but not knowing the how is not possible*, unless she has amnesia"
> 
> ...



And I disagree.  It's entirely possible that she doesn't remember the how simply because memory as a little kid isn't reliable.  Moreover, relying on "Rey's survival guide" to give your theory evidence seems pretty shaky, to me.  It's not from the actual movie.

I don't think it would be objectively bad writing.  However, somehow becoming _leader_ of the Knights of Ren as a highschooler, would be objectively bad writing.  It's ridiculous.



> I think it's obvious that Rey has some mysterious past that is tied to the large plot. If she's not a skywalker, it begs the question who she is as well as what twists can fit within the context of the events of the TFA. I believe I did a good job outlining why my theory is able to fit, and that's really all my objective is, not to say it is thee only theory plausible. Fuck I still think Luke being Rey's father is plausible despite all the evidence I brought forward to discount it.



Except it doesn't fit, because you have to actively disregard things we've been told about Rey.  Like never being off Jakku since being left there.  



> Rey being strong with the force could be a plausible answer, I have no problem with that. However she'd need to be stronger w/ the force than even someone like Luke by a mile. Luke was naturally gifted in ANH, but even he demonstrated nothing near the skills Rey did. So I tend to think there is a reason within the plot as to why Rey is so talent w/ the force. Now is Rey being trained in the force, forgetting her training the only possible answer, no, and I never asserted such, but it would plausibly answer why she is so good. Again my objective here is not to prove my theory w/o a shadow of a doubt, as I don't think that is possible with the current evidence on the table, it's only to show that my theory is possible.



Being able to guide the torpedoes, destroying the Death Star and saving the Rebellion, is a pretty impressive skill.  What's so incredible about Rey's abilities, by comparison?  If you're not claiming your theory is actually true, just that it's "possible", then the words "probably" and "evidence" shouldn't be involved with it.



> The audio book says it's Snoke:



I'm skeptical.  This website doesn't say how the audiobook indicates it's Snoke. If the audiobook is just the novelization in audio form, it wouldn't explicitly say it's Snoke.



> I personally find it more plausible that Rey is recalling a memory there, than Snoke being that ungodly powerful. But that is up to each person to decided for themselves, as I repeat my objective here isn't to disprove every other theory, it's to show that my theory can fit.



Telepathy across the galaxy isn't really ungodly powerful, man.  And even if it was -- he's, ostensibly, the final villain.  I have no problem with him getting incredible powers, it helps set him up as a threat.



> I don't mean to be rude man, but I feel like you are employing some pretty serious double standards in the way your bashing my theory, but than saying certain things don't need to be explained.
> 
> For example you attack my theory for the idea that Rey could become Leader of the Knights of Ren sometime between15-17,  but in the same breath write off Rey's insanely rapid development with the force in TFA which takes place over a matter of days (maybe weeks), as her simply being strong with the force...
> 
> ...



Skill with the Force =/= leadership skill.  I already said this.  The problem is not the idea of Rey becoming skilled with the Force quickly, it's the idea that she would have the _leadership_ skills as a high schooler to be made leader of the Knights of Ren.  I find that highly implausible.  It doesn't matter how many years of training Rey gets, she's not going to have the emotional maturity to be an effective leader of an elite order, and Snoke would have to be supremely incompetent in order to think she would be good as the leader.  Nevermind that the idea that Rey had "several years of training" with Snoke is something you're pulling straight out of your ass.



> Than you consistently attack my theory in this post for the fact that there are other plausible explanation to the points I raise, while in the same breath have stated that you willing to buy into the theory that Rey is related to Obi Wan, which I know for a fact that all the main point raised in that theory can be explained in alternative means as well. So again if you can accept this in the case of Obi Wan theory, doesn't seem fair that I am somehow held to a completely different standard, and must disprove all other possibility for every point I raise.
> 
> You also stated that Rey could have been trained by Luke at the Jedi temple, which also requires Rey to have Anmesia, but than in the same breath accuse my theory for requiring the same exact thing, with thee only change being timing. Rey suffers Amnesia sometime on Jakku in the she was previously trained as a Jedi theory and in mine suffers Amnesia sometime later in her life. Again if you can accept Anmesia in that case as plausible, than it's unfair that you discounting my theory for relying on that exact same plot device.
> 
> It's just hard for me to take your criticism seriously, when I see you allowing the exact same points to fly by, when considering other theories or ideas. It just seems like the main problem here is that you don't like the idea, rather than having anything really constructive to say against the idea.



I'm not discounting your theory in comparison to other theories simply because other theories exist.  I'm discounting your theory in comparison to the other theories because it's _absurd_, and directly goes against details we've already been given about Rey.  Where the other theories come in is when you try arguing that there's "plenty of evidence"  for it -- which is something you said.  Every single point you raised that your theory "explains" either don't _need_ to be explained, or can be explained by other, more sensical theories, leaving your theory without a shred of actual evidence.  Certainly not enough to override what we already know about Rey.



> How is the context different? My theory also relies on the effects of the force on someone's mind. Fuck Luke could have even mind wiped Rey and dropped her off on Jakku again, instead of killing her, after besting her and the Knights of Ren. Which would be pretty much the exact same thing as what happened to Revan.



The story foreshadowed the player character having a connection to Revan through the dreams, and Carth even references Jedi having the ability to change a person's memory in your first conversation with him.  There's no such foreshadowing in TFA.  Revan was a distinct character referenced during the story -- This "Kira Ren" you're postulating doesn't actually exist in the story we've been told. And the player didn't really have a defined past like Rey does (after being dropped off on Jakku).


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## Zeta42 (Feb 12, 2016)

Has this been posted here yet?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbpgM-JTang[/youtube]


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## Turrin (Feb 12, 2016)

Wan said:


> And I disagree.  It's entirely possible that she doesn't remember the how simply because memory as a little kid isn't reliable.  Moreover, relying on "Rey's survival guide" to give your theory evidence seems pretty shaky, to me.  It's not from the actual movie.
> .


If Rey was an infant or 2-3 I could buy this, I can't buy a 6-7 Year Old not knowing how she ended up on Jakku. I don't remember a huge amount from when I was 6-7, but I remember that my family took a car to get to Disney world, and that isn't even as big of an event in my life as being abandoned by her parents on Jakuu is for Rey.  And I see no reason why we shouldn't use supplementary material as support. 



> don't think it would be objectively bad writing.


I do, if you think differently that's fine, but me it's ether bad writing or Rey has anmesia/memory tampering. 



> Except it doesn't fit, because you have to actively disregard things we've been told about Rey. Like never being off Jakku since being left there.


If Rey has Amnesia than this comment doesn't have merit. Heck we already know Rey almost certainly was on another planet before being abandoned on Jakku, so we already know her statement is almost certainly false.



> Being able to guide the torpedoes, destroying the Death Star and saving the Rebellion, is a pretty impressive skill. What's so incredible about Rey's abilities,


Luke was able to hit the Death Stars weak point, but then he spent years prior to that basically training for that moment by playing target practice with Wamp-rates. Yes the force helped give him the extra skills to push his skills even further. But to me that is about equivalent w/ Rey's piloting of the Falcon feat, something supplementary material tells us she also trained her skills for prior to the TFA, and force simply gave her the ability to do it on a higher scale. Now what Rey does that's amazing is using Jedi Mind Trick to Mind Rape the Stormtrooper, using the force to out match Ren in a duel (granted Ren was weakened, but still), and overcoming even a full strength Ren's attempt to look into her mind and even reversing it on Ren (she also won out in the force struggle to draw Anakin's lightsaber to her). Put Luke into any of those situations and he's fucked.



> If you're not claiming your theory is actually true, just that it's "possible", then the words "probably" and "evidence" shouldn't be involved with it.


"Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. "
"At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions"

Evidence applies perfectly to what I present to you.



> I'm skeptical. This website doesn't say how the audiobook indicates it's Snoke. If the audiobook is just the novelization in audio form, it wouldn't explicitly say it's Snoke.


Dude even in the novelization it's indicated that voice that is not Rey's is speaking in her head:

"Kill him, a voice inside her head said. It was amorphous, unidentifiable, raw. Pure vengeful emotion. So easy, she told herself. So quick"

As far as the audio book is concerned, you being skeptical, multiple websites reported this w/o me being able to find even one discounting it. Even still if you want to remain skeptical that's up to you, but you can't disprove it's Snoke, and therefore it is still a interesting piece of evidence for my theory.



> Telepathy across the galaxy isn't really ungodly powerful, man. And even if it was -- he's, ostensibly, the final villain. I have no problem with him getting incredible powers, it helps set him up as a threat.


Copy - I personally find it more plausible that Rey is recalling a memory there, than Snoke being that ungodly powerful. But that is up to each person to decided for themselves, as I repeat my objective here isn't to disprove every other theory, it's to show that my theory can fit. - Paste



> Skill with the Force =/= leadership skill. I already said this. The problem is not the idea of Rey becoming skilled with the Force quickly, it's the idea that she would have the leadership skills as a high schooler to be made leader of the Knights of Ren. I find that highly implausible. It doesn't matter how many years of training Rey gets, she's not going to have the emotional maturity to be an effective leader of an elite order, and Snoke would have to be supremely incompetent in order to think she would be good as the leader. Nevermind that the idea that Rey had "several years of training" with Snoke is something you're pulling straight out of your ass.


Leia was flipping senator around the same age i'm proposing that Rey could have been leader of the Knights of Ren, so I don't think age prevents Rey from being a leader. Plus it didn't seem like Kylo was some amazing leader anyway.



> I'm not discounting your theory in comparison to other theories simply because other theories exist. I'm discounting your theory in comparison to the other theories because it's absurd, and directly goes against details we've already been given about Rey. Where the other theories come in is when you try arguing that there's "plenty of evidence" for it -- which is something you said. Every single point you raised that your theory "explains" either don't need to be explained, or can be explained by other, more sensical theories, leaving your theory without a shred of actual evidence. Certainly not enough to override what we already know about Rey.


Let's get real here, you have only presented one detail of Rey's character that this goes against, and that's Rey never having left Jakku. A detail we know is almost certainly false, as no matter which theory is correct, she likely has been off Jakku before, whether before being abandoned or after. So let's not pretend one detail that is highly likely to already be false, is some huge thing, that a massive amount of evidence is necessary for us to ignore it.

Outside of that you haven't provided anything to discount my theory, besides your objective opinion on what is or isn't more likely; which to be frank is based around some pretty unfair double standards, like accepting Amnesia as an explanation for one theory, but not accepting anmesia/memory tampering as an explanation for my, and so on... Or simply ignoring or forgetting that we have actual examples of people in more influential leadership roles that were younger than teenage Rey...Or choosing to ignore piece of evidence that came from other sources like Rey's Survival Guide, the Audio Book, etc...



> The story foreshadowed the player character having a connection to Revan through the dreams, and Carth even references Jedi having the ability to change a person's memory in your first conversation with him. There's no such foreshadowing in TFA. Revan was a distinct character referenced during the story -- This "Kira Ren" you're postulating doesn't actually exist in the story we've been told. And the player didn't really have a defined past like Rey does (after being dropped off on Jakku).[/QUOTE
> TFA is only Part I of a Trilogy, in which the fully mystery of Rey's origin's probably isn't going to be revealed in detail until Episode IX and maybe not even then if Disney want's to do it's own prequel Saga or an Anthology Film covering prequel type events. Your comparing that to the events of an entire game which was already plotted out to answer the question of the player character's origins by the end of that game.
> 
> As far as foreshadowing goes: I very clearly outlined how the film could be foreshadowing this twist in my theory post. You saying that certain points can have alternate explanations, doesn't change the fact that my points could also be foreshadowing. Beyond that something I didn't even bring up in the original post, was Rey's vision of the Knights of Ren, which also clearly foreshadows a connection with them, in the same way her visions and dreams of luke foreshadowed a connection with him. Now whether that connection is being a Knight of Ren before or her being a spectator to one of there massacres, we don't know, but that could be foreshadowing of my theory as well, in a very similar manner to Revan's dreams.


----------



## kluang (Feb 12, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]f4-4zkQRdfk[/YOUTUBE]

Hideo Kojima just create a Youtube channel and his first video is the Top 10 Movies in 2015.

And Star Wars is no.10 lower the Straight Out of Compton and Mad Max


----------



## Stunna (Feb 12, 2016)

Yeah, when he hits 60 his age is gon hit him like a truck.


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 12, 2016)

50 aint that old lol


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 12, 2016)

kluang said:


> [YOUTUBE]f4-4zkQRdfk[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Hideo Kojima just create a Youtube channel and his first video is the Top 10 Movies in 2015.
> 
> And Star Wars is no.10 lower the Straight Out of Compton and Mad Max



was gonna watch this til i noticed...

i cant believe a top 10 movie video is 45 minutes long what the hell


----------



## Zeta42 (Feb 13, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> memories can be removed and altered via the force; one of the best SW games is based on this premise.


It wasn't the Force that took Revan's memories away tho. It was from the physical trauma.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 13, 2016)

Zeta42 said:


> It wasn't the Force that took Revan's memories away tho. It was from the physical trauma.



the Jedi remade his personality and gave him a new identity; sure it was only possible because he was near death...

but altering or blocking a childs memories should be no problem for an experienced force user.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 13, 2016)

Zeta42 said:


> It wasn't the Force that took Revan's memories away tho. It was from the physical trauma.


As RB said the Jedi order manipulated Revan's memories, instead of killing him. So I could easily see a powerful force user like Luke being able to manipulate a defeated Knight of Ren's memories if he so wished. And if he sensed good in said Knight of Ren like he did in his father, than I could see it being Luke's MO that instead off killing the Knight he'd wipe her memories clean and drop her off on her original home world of Jakku. Alternatively, it could be that Snoke uses the force to mess w/ the Knight's minds to keep them in check, and if that hold was broken it would scramble someone's brains as well. Etc..


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 13, 2016)

lol she's not a knight of ren, i have no idea why you keep assuming it's even a legit theory. it's not. there is nothing to suggest that. you're just taking huge fucking leaps.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 13, 2016)

it think it's more plausible that she was a "youngling" being trained in the force who survived the massacre of Lukes Order by the KoR...

for her safety they left her on Jakku and either she repressed the memories or they were altered by someone else.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Feb 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> As RB said the Jedi order manipulated Revan's memories, instead of killing him. So I could easily see a powerful force user like Luke being able to manipulate a *defeated Knight of Ren's memories if he so wished*. And if he sensed good in said Knight of Ren like he did in his father, than I could see it being Luke's MO that instead off killing the Knight he'd wipe her memories clean and drop her off on her original home world of Jakku. Alternatively, it could be that Snoke uses the force to mess w/ the Knight's minds to keep them in check, and if that hold was broken it would scramble someone's brains as well. Etc..



WHAT? 

We was shown being left on Jakku by someone *as a child*, and don't you think that, I don't know, REN WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED ONE OF HIS FORMER ALLIES?

If she did have previous skill in the Force in one form or another, the only one who would have any incentive to modify her memories to protect her would be Luke.  Furthermore, it is no coincidence she was left on the same planet as Lor San Tekka, the man who held the last piece of the map to Luke's location.


----------



## Mikaveli (Feb 13, 2016)

There's no way Rey was a youngling when Kylo did whatever he did


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 13, 2016)

y not?

he's a good 10 years older than she was...


----------



## Pilaf (Feb 14, 2016)




----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2016)

> 1. The Phantom Menace - "Now this is podracing!"
> 2. Attack of the Clones - "I don't like sand."
> 3. Revenge of the Sith - "I have the high ground!"
> 4. A New Hope -
> ...






having a bit of trouble picking the right memetic line from ANH:


> - Your lack of faith disturbs me.
> - I felt a great disturbance in the Force
> - May the Force be with you.
> - The force is strong with this one
> ...


----------



## Stunna (Feb 18, 2016)

Going off that list, "use the Force" or "that's no moon".


----------



## Stunna (Feb 18, 2016)

btw it's "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

which, now that I think about it, I'd go with over the other two


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2016)

Stunna said:


> btw it's "I find your lack of faith disturbing."


i have no idea how I fucked up that line


lack of sleep


----------



## Stunna (Feb 18, 2016)

My personally most quoted line from the series is Anakin's "you will try" in response to Obi-Wan's "I will do what I must" from RotS.

Specifically with Hayden's inflection. Like, I think it was a cool response, but the way he says it.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Feb 18, 2016)

come to think of it, from RotS:

- from my PoV the Jedi are evil
- YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE
- Unlimited power !

are just as valid 



eh, wasnt my list anyway, got it from jewtube


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 18, 2016)

only sith deal in absolutes


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 19, 2016)

I HATE YOU
from my point of view the jedi are evil!
YOU WERE MY BROTHER ANAKIN, I LOVED YOU
i have the high ground now!
i hate sand. it's rough and coarse..and it gets everywhere (the way he says everywhere...lmfao)
hello there!
but you are not a jedi yet
the future is not yours yet (yoda from the clone wars series finale..which i just realized was a reference to the previous quote lol)
whiny luke speaking to uncle owen
this is where the fun begins


----------



## Mider T (Feb 19, 2016)

"I love you"
"I know"


----------



## Vault (Feb 19, 2016)

Stunna said:


> My personally most quoted line from the series is Anakin's "you will try" in response to Obi-Wan's "I will do what I must" from RotS.
> 
> Specifically with Hayden's inflection. Like, I think it was a cool response, but the way he says it.



It's the awkward movement of Hayden which make Darth Vader so great 

Also when he says Liar to Padme


----------



## A. Waltz (Feb 19, 2016)

Vault said:


> It's the awkward movement of Hayden which make Darth Vader so great
> 
> Also when he says Liar to Padme



YOU'RE WITH HIM

anakin you're breaking my heart


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Feb 19, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]BQ4yd2W50No[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Feb 25, 2016)

I liked the movie, but didn't like how most of my friends call me Kylo Ren since I look like him...


----------



## Skaddix (Feb 26, 2016)

Vader he is not...I mean come on I think I am suppose to feel sympathy but when u got kids being forced into lives as stromtroopers its kinda hard to feel bad for the dude who went evil because a mommy and daddy were busy...sheesh at least Vader went evil because he though he was saving his wife and kids. I am all for gray villains but come on. Doesnt help I see Driver and I think Hipster and his Vader obsession comes off as Super Hipster.


----------



## Wan (Feb 27, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Vader he is not...I mean come on I think I am suppose to feel sympathy but when u got kids being forced into lives as stromtroopers its kinda hard to feel bad for the dude who went evil because a mommy and daddy were busy...sheesh at least Vader went evil because he though he was saving his wife and kids. I am all for gray villains but come on. Doesnt help I see Driver and I think Hipster and his Vader obsession comes off as Super Hipster.



I wouldn't say Ren is supposed to be a sympathetic villain so much as he's conflicted and tragic villain.  Which I find interesting.  We don't know the full details of how he fell to the Dark Side, but I'm pretty sure it's not as simple as "his mommy and daddy were busy".


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 27, 2016)

he probably felt Luke's teachings were going too slow and he wanted to advance quicker; enter Darf Snokueis who promises cool stuff like advanced force powers, galactic domination and the fear of all you come across etc.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 27, 2016)

I find it to be odd that Abrams insisted that Kylo Ren and Snoke were not Sith, when they have all the classic traits of Sith; what benefit is there to the story in having them be Sith in everything but name?

Also, one of the greatest complaints of the prequel trilogy was how Anakin was portrayed as an angsty and emotional adolescent, compared to how he was so calm and badass as Darth Vader in the original trilogy, so why did the story writers repeat that mistake with Kylo Ren? Why was he such a short-tempered person?

Also, in the original trilogy, Vader and Tarkin were both very calm and stern people who may not have agreed on every issue, but nevertheless had mutual respect for each other. In stark contrast to that, Kylo Ren and General Hux are both very brash and hot-headed, and treat each other with barely-concealed contempt. Why did the filmmakers have such a drastic contrast between those two groups of people?

Finally, why does Kylo Ren not have an evil-sounding name? It has long been a tradition in the _Star Wars_ franchise for dark side force-users to have fierce and menacing names, so Kylo Ren's name is very odd in that there is nothing inherently evil about it.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 27, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> I find it to be odd that Abrams insisted that Kylo Ren and Snoke were not Sith, when they have all the classic traits of Sith; what benefit is there to the story in having them be Sith in everything but name?


Actually, yeah, does anyone want to elaborate on this?



> Also, one of the greatest complaints of the prequel trilogy was how Anakin was portrayed as an angsty and emotional adolescent, compared to how he was so calm and badass as Darth Vader in the original trilogy, so why did the story writers repeat that mistake with Kylo Ren? Why was he such a short-tempered person?


The difference is that Anakin being a pissbaby conflicted with what we'd been told about his character. It also made him a poor protagonist.

Kylo being a pissbaby is obviously deliberate; he's _supposed_ to be perceived as such.


----------



## Wan (Feb 27, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> he probably felt Luke's teachings were going too slow and he wanted to advance quicker; enter Darf Snokueis who promises cool stuff like advanced force powers, galactic domination and the fear of all you come across etc.



Kylo Ren is not Sasuke; I doubt it was about Ren simply wanting to be more powerful.  More of a psychological manipulation on Snoke's part from a young age to warp Ren's  perception of right and wrong.



DemonDragonJ said:


> I find it to be odd that Abrams insisted that Kylo Ren and Snoke were not Sith, when they have all the classic traits of Sith; what benefit is there to the story in having them be Sith in everything but name?
> 
> Also, one of the greatest complaints of the prequel trilogy was how Anakin was portrayed as an angsty and emotional adolescent, compared to how he was so calm and badass as Darth Vader in the original trilogy, so why did the story writers repeat that mistake with Kylo Ren? Why was he such a short-tempered person?
> 
> ...



No Rule of Two is one obvious potential benefit of breaking from the Sith.  I'm sure that Ren would have no issue being a Sith just like Darth Vader, but Snoke is a different matter and he's the one in charge.  We don't know much about Snoke's motivations and goals quite yet.  There could be any number of reasons that Snoke wants to be separate from the ideology of the Sith.  It is a question mark right now, though, one I hope the rest of the trilogy addresses.

I'd more say that one of the complaints about Anakin's characterization in the PT was that, in the OT, Obi-wan had talked up Anakin as this great friend and hero, one of the best people he had ever known.  In the PT, we didn't get that.  What we got was an Anakin who was constantly bickering with Obi-wan, talking back, and complaining about how he was always being "held back".  So there was this dissonance between the expectation of who Anakin was supposed to be before he fell, and what we were actually shown.  Kylo Ren didn't have that expectation working against him.  Plus it helps that Kylo fell more on the "conflicted" side rather than "whiny", and had better written dialogue and acting from Adam Driver than Anakin had from Hayden Christiansen (narm aside).


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 27, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Actually, yeah, does anyone want to elaborate on this?



Are you seeking an elaboration on what Sith-like traits they possess, or on how it benefits the story for them to be Sith in everything but name?


----------



## Stunna (Feb 27, 2016)

The latter.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 27, 2016)

Wan said:


> *No Rule of Two is one obvious potential benefit of breaking from the Sith.*  I'm sure that Ren would have no issue being a Sith just like Darth Vader, but Snoke is a different matter and he's the one in charge.  We don't know much about Snoke's motivations and goals quite yet.  There could be any number of reasons that Snoke wants to be separate from the ideology of the Sith.  It is a question mark right now, though, one I hope the rest of the trilogy addresses.



First, Snoke and Kylo Ren are the only two dark side force-users who have been shown in the new film, thus far, so I would not say that they have abandoned the rule of two. Second, abandoning the rule of two is not necessarily a good thing; in ages past, the Sith had an order akin to that of the Jedi, but, due to the nature of the dark side, its members were constantly plotting against each other, so it could never rival the Jedi order in power and influence. For that reason, Darth Bane eliminated the entire order and decreed that, from that point forward, there would only be two Sith at any time; a master to embody the power, and an apprentice to desire the power. Even if that story is never referenced in the new films, it still is an excellent explanation for why there were only two Sith lords at any time during most of the stories.



Stunna said:


> The latter.



It seems to me that Wan gave a very good explanation, but I shall say that Snoke likely has an ideological difference from the Sith that shall hopefully be explained in the next film.


----------



## Wan (Feb 27, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> First, Snoke and Kylo Ren are the only two dark side force-users who have been shown in the new film, thus far, so I would not say that they have abandoned the rule of two. Second, abandoning the rule of two is not necessarily a good thing; in ages past, the Sith had an order akin to that of the Jedi, but, due to the nature of the dark side, its members were constantly plotting against each other, so it could never rival the Jedi order in power and influence. For that reason, Darth Bane eliminated the entire order and decreed that, from that point forward, there would only be two Sith at any time; a master to embody the power, and an apprentice to desire the power. Even if that story is never referenced in the new films, it still is an excellent explanation for why there were only two Sith lords at any time during most of the stories.



They're the only one's we've seen, but a larger organization called the "Knights of Ren" has been hinted at, which may have been shown in Rey's vision. 

In the novelization, Snoke talks about having watched the Empire rise and fall.  If he was a Dark Side user then, he wouldn't have been a Sith.  If Snoke wasn't a Sith then, why would he suddenly become a Sith simply because of Palpatine's death?

There is an ideological reason behind the Rule of Two for the Sith, it's possible that Snoke simply disagrees with it.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 27, 2016)

Wan said:


> They're the only one's we've seen, but a larger organization called the "Knights of Ren" has been hinted at, which may have been shown in Rey's vision.
> 
> In the novelization, Snoke talks about having watched the Empire rise and fall.  If he was a Dark Side user then, he wouldn't have been a Sith.  If Snoke wasn't a Sith then, why would he suddenly become a Sith simply because of Palpatine's death?
> 
> There is an ideological reason behind the Rule of Two for the Sith, it's possible that Snoke simply disagrees with it.



First, the idea of there being another dark side user during the time of the empire strains credibility, because Palpatine was very certain to ensure that he and Vader were the only dark side users in existence, to consolidate their power, nor were any other such users ever hinted at during the original trilogy; this is clearly the "insert a new character into past events" trope that is very common among fiction, which is a very negative trope, in my mind.

Second, if Snoke is not a Sith, that is good, because it would discredit the idea of him being Darth Plagueis; while I do think that that would be an interesting twist, Plagueis's time is over; he had his time as a lord of the Sith, and it would be poor storytelling to bring him back, again, and it also would undermine Palpatine's image as the greatest villain of the _Star Wars_ franchise (or at least the films) for Plagueis, whom Palpatine killed, to return.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Feb 27, 2016)

i'd rather they not ruin Plaguis by bringing him into SJWars


----------



## Stunna (Feb 27, 2016)

Klansman pls


----------



## Wan (Feb 27, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> First, the idea of there being another dark side user during the time of the empire strains credibility, because Palpatine was very certain to ensure that he and Vader were the only dark side users in existence, to consolidate their power, nor were any other such users ever hinted at during the original trilogy; this is clearly the "insert a new character into past events" trope that is very common among fiction, which is a very negative trope, in my mind.



Er, what?






There were a good amount of Dark Side users under the employ of Palpatine, both in the Legends canon and in the new canon, and both before and after the formation of the Empire.  They just weren't considered Sith.  Snoke may have been one of these, but I sort of prefer to think Snoke is his own thing, who was waiting in the shadows for his own opportunity while Palpatine was forming his Empire.



> Second, if Snoke is not a Sith, that is good, because it would discredit the idea of him being Darth Plagueis; while I do think that that would be an interesting twist, Plagueis's time is over; he had his time as a lord of the Sith, and it would be poor storytelling to bring him back, again, and it also would undermine Palpatine's image as the greatest villain of the _Star Wars_ franchise (or at least the films) for Plagueis, whom Palpatine killed, to return.



I do agree that Snoke shouldn't just be Plagueis, I would rather Snoke be his own character.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Feb 28, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Klansman pls


SJWars Episode 8: The Homo Menace


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 28, 2016)

This is not relevant to _The Force Awakens,_ but I have recently learned that the actor who played general Crix Madine in _Return of the Jedi_ was wearing a fake beard because an action figure of his character had already been made with a beard. Is that not ridiculous that the filmmakers forced the actor to alter his appearance to match the action figure, rather than simply altering the action figure to match the actor? If I were that actor, I would not have been pleased, at all, by that decision.



Wan said:


> Er, what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



None of those characters had been conceived during the original trilogy, which is what I was saying; all of them were conceived after the original trilogy had already been made, and left little room for such characters. Do you know how, in _Dragon Ball,_ in movies and filler arcs, the writers would often suddenly introduce a new saiya-jin who had somehow survived  the destruction of planet Vegeta or have remnants of Freeza's army appear, and how that tactic became more ridiculous each time that it was used? Inserting new force users into the time of the original trilogy is akin to that; it is a cheap plot device that strains credibility and borders on contradicting established details of the story.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 28, 2016)

Gilgamesh said:


> SJWars Episode 8: The Homo Menace


If it were an "SJW" movie, it'd never get away with "The Homo Menace" as a subtitle. 





DemonDragonJ said:


> This is not relevant to _The Force Awakens,_ but I have recently learned that the actor who played general Crix Madine in _Return of the Jedi_ was wearing a fake beard because an action figure of his character had already been made with a beard. Is that not ridiculous that the filmmakers forced the actor to alter his appearance to match the action figure, rather than simply altering the action figure to match the actor?


No more ridiculous than the fact that the only reason Han Solo was even in the movie was to sell action figures.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 28, 2016)

The reason Snoke is not a sith is the same reason that quite a few martial arts lack 10th dan practitioners these days. 

Sith (or I guess more accurately Dark Lord of the Sith) is a title, you can only become a sith if you abide by and are part of the rule of two, Sheev is a sith, Vader is a sith, Dooku is a sith, Maul is a sith. Cf. Ventress who is not a sith (because she was an apprentice/accomplice of Dooku while he was the apprentice), the inquisitors who are not sith (because they were mass produced and Vader was the Apprentice at the time), etc. This is how things worked after Bane instituted the rule of two, there's a master and an apprentice, anyone who is not one of these two is not sith.

Snoke was obviously not a part of this system, either by choice or circumstance he was never in line to take on the mantle of Sith, ergo he is not a Sith, merely a dark side force user or whatever terminology you want to use. The (canon so far as we know) Sith lineage died with vader.

I mean theoretically Snoke could claim he was a sith and start a new Sith Order with himself at the top and there would be no-one to challenge him but he would still lack proper sith heritage. There's an unbroken chain between Bane and Vader (so far as we know), Snoke is merely an off shoot, or even a completely new tree that just happens to be growing nearby.


----------



## Skaddix (Feb 28, 2016)

Eh they are close enough red sabers and Kylo is Darth Vader Fanboy...Not Sith In Name Only (NSINO).


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 28, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> None of those characters had been conceived during the original trilogy, which is what I was saying; all of them were conceived after the original trilogy had already been made, and left little room for such characters.



the very idea of "the Sith" didn't exist in the OT...it's either some EU invention or some prequel nonsense.


Darth Vader was just a Jedi who fell to the Dark side and the emperor was some creepy lightning wizard.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Feb 28, 2016)

Stunna said:


> No more ridiculous than the fact that the only reason Han Solo was even in the movie was to sell action figures.



You must be joking; Han is one of the three main protagonists of the original trilogy, so there is no way that Lucas created him only to sell action figures. Where has that ever been stated?



RAGING BONER said:


> the very idea of "the Sith" didn't exist in the OT...it's either some EU invention or some prequel nonsense.
> 
> 
> Darth Vader was just a Jedi who fell to the Dark side and the emperor was some creepy lightning wizard.



Yes, it is true that the word "Sith" is never used in the original trilogy, but Lucas had, actually, conceived of them in the early drafts of the story, when Luke was named Luke Starkiller and Anakin and Vader were actually two different people, so I wonder why he never used that term in the films?


----------



## Stunna (Feb 28, 2016)

Han was supposed to be killed off at the end of TESB. He was kept alive only so they could sell Han Solo toys.

Luke was also supposed to leave at the end of RotJ to live as a hermit, but they made a more traditional happy ending to sell more Luke dolls.


----------



## ~Gesy~ (Feb 28, 2016)

Makes you think what's promoting what  here


----------



## Turrin (Feb 29, 2016)

Two options for Snoke 

1) He could be a Sith Emperor, and be from the Sith order before they had the rule of 2. Though for the purpose of the film they may simplify things and just not call him a sith, in-order to avoid confusion or having to explain the difference between the Sith in the original trilogy and the original sith empire for those who don't know enough of the outside lore

2)He could simply be an old force whose been trying to create the ultimate Sith Lord throughout the centuries.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 29, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> the very idea of "the Sith" didn't exist in the OT...it's either some EU invention or some prequel nonsense.
> 
> 
> Darth Vader was just a Jedi who fell to the Dark side and the emperor was some creepy lightning wizard.



you can trace the idea of the sith to the original trilogy, it just didn't actually make it into the film itself.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Feb 29, 2016)

Stunna said:


> *Han was supposed to be killed off at the end of TESB. He was kept alive only so they could sell Han Solo toys.
> *
> Luke was also supposed to leave at the end of RotJ to live as a hermit, but they made a more traditional happy ending to sell more Luke dolls.





Fictional characters make as much merchandise dead as alive.

So don't go making up lies like that; Han was frozen in carbonite because the producers and Harrison Ford himself were uncertain whether he would continue his commitment to the character into "Return Of the Jedi".  The carbonite freezing allowed them to go either way: if Harrison didn't come back, that would have been the exit for his character; but since he did come back, rescuing Han set up the first act of the movie.

But this isn't even relevant to the topic thread, so I can only see you persisting in bringing up as an act of spite more than anything else.


----------



## Stunna (Feb 29, 2016)

I didn't lie. Stay     mad.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Feb 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Two options for Snoke
> 
> 1) He could be a Sith Emperor, and be from the Sith order before they had the rule of 2. Though for the purpose of the film they may simplify things and just not call him a sith, in-order to avoid confusion or having to explain the difference between the Sith in the original trilogy and the original sith empire for those who don't know enough of the outside lore
> 
> 2)He could simply be an old force whose been trying to create the ultimate Sith Lord throughout the centuries.



i know nobody wants to hear it but it's gonna be Palpatines old master, Plagueis


----------



## Skaddix (Feb 29, 2016)

It would make sense.



Stunna said:


> I didn't lie. Stay     mad.



You are right but I should note that was at the start of movie merchandising (hence how good old George swindled all the merc rights from 21st Century Fox) so yeah now you can say dead characters still sell but they didnt know that back then.


----------



## Thespacelord (Feb 29, 2016)

I'm thinking Snoke might be a Pure Dark Side incarnation of Anakin or Darth Plageuis.

If he was the Sith Emperor from the Old Republic i'd enjoy that too but i doubt very much that it will be so.


----------



## Rukia (Feb 29, 2016)

After watching the Oscars last night.  I thought about The Force Awakens a little more.  About the Rey character in particular.  I really enjoyed her.  I hope she starts to really dominate this franchise.  I want everything to revolve around her.  We can have new characters every movie as long as she sticks around to anchor everything.


----------



## Wan (Feb 29, 2016)

You're overdoing it, Rukia.


----------



## Catalyst75 (Mar 1, 2016)

@Thespacelord : The way Snoke speaks and how he is described (his biography states he was active during the Clone Wars) points towards Plagueis.  He's even called "wise" by Ben, the epithet of Plagueis as stated by Palpatine.

It would be poetic justice, from one perspective, and irony from another: Plagueis not only out-lives the apprentice using his power over the midi-chlorians, but corrupts and turns to the dark side the grandson of the man who destroyed said apprentice.  

It is almost symbolic: Plagueis is effectively *The Last* of the older generation, both Jedi and Sith alike, and he is doing his hardest to corrupt the new generation to serve him (Ben).


----------



## Rukia (Mar 1, 2016)

Some people owe me a massive apology if he is Plagueis.


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 1, 2016)

I'm actually kind of glad they didn't kill off Han in RoTJ. After the events of the previous movie, as well as the effort put into rescuing him in the very first act, it would have come off as yet another moment of Han getting screwed over and made the first act feel somewhat pointless.

I really, really hope Snoke isn't Sith. As I've said before, it would feel pointless to have a whole prophecy about Anakin destroying the Sith if they're around to spread more trouble. In that case, why even have a prophecy in the first place if its effects aren't lasting?


----------



## RAGING BONER (Mar 1, 2016)

^the Sith and Jedi have driven each other to near extinction countless times over thousands of years...

and the prophecy spoke of _balance_ to the force and balance means both light and dark.


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 1, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> ^the Sith and Jedi have driven each other to near extinction countless times over thousands of years...
> 
> and the prophecy spoke of _balance_ to the force and balance means both light and dark.



 Lucas has said that balance means that the corruption in the Force, the Dark Side and its adherents, is eliminated. The Jedi are supposed to be like space Taoists living in balance with nature (unfortunately, they began to stray from their ideals and became overly dogmatic). The Sith are a corruption in the Force, and balance means getting rid of that corruption.



> In an interview with Bill Moyers, Lucas compared the Sith to a cancer, saying: "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other ... there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."



However, we also have to keep in mind that Lucas appears to contradict himself later in the same interview.


----------



## Mider T (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't see how they strayed, I've never quite understood that.  The council seemed pretty monk-like.  What is the ideal Jedi?  Qui-Gon?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 1, 2016)

my headcanon will always be that balance = elimination of anyone using the force in a structured way.

Jedi order = no

Sith order = no

randoms using it small time on a random planet = fine.


----------



## Mider T (Mar 1, 2016)

That doesn't exist because the force is always there, and there will always be force-sensitive beings.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 1, 2016)

I feel like u misread my post


----------



## Imagine (Mar 1, 2016)

Basically the light side and dark side need to go otherwise the balance will forever be uneven regardless of which side is alive or dead.

If there is light then there will eventually be dark

If there is dark then there will eventually be light

As long as there's a side that's actively trying to make their side the dominate one then shit will continuously hit the fan

If there are some random farmers who eventually awaken the force but don't have any alignment to either side and use their powers for their own life purposes then it's all good in the hood?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 1, 2016)

OMFG Imagine go away


----------



## Imagine (Mar 1, 2016)

How are you, friend?


----------



## Wan (Mar 1, 2016)

"Avalanches start out small"


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 1, 2016)

Why did Han and Leia named their son Ben? If that is a reference the name that Obi-Wan used while he was on Tatooine, then it makes no sense, since Han knew him for only a short duration, and Leia likely never met him. Luke naming his son Ben makes sense, as he had an emotional connection to Obi-Wan, but Han and Leia did not.


----------



## Mider T (Mar 1, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why did Han and Leia named their son Ben? If that is a reference the name that Obi-Wan used while he was on Tatooine, then it makes no sense, since Han knew him for only a short duration, and Leia likely never met him. Luke naming his son Ben makes sense, as he had an emotional connection to Obi-Wan, but Han and Leia did not.



...Leia was very well aware of Obi-Wan.  I thought the fact that she even knew he was alive was indicative of that.


----------



## Gunners (Mar 1, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> Why did Han and Leia named their son Ben? If that is a reference the name that Obi-Wan used while he was on Tatooine, then it makes no sense, since Han knew him for only a short duration, and Leia likely never met him. Luke naming his son Ben makes sense, as he had an emotional connection to Obi-Wan, but Han and Leia did not.



You know, he assisted in her rescue, sacrificed his life so that they could escape and coached Luke, from the grave, so that he could destroy the Death Star. He was also viewed as a hero during the Clone Wars. 

They probably respected him.


----------



## Stunna (Mar 1, 2016)

Why do people act like no one's ever named their child after a historical figure before? 

Obi-Wan was a respected figure in the eyes of the Rebellion (or at least in Leia's), and I guess they liked how "Ben" sounded more than "Obi-Wan."


----------



## Skaddix (Mar 1, 2016)

Eh it still made more sense in the Old EU when Luke names his son Ben...Han didnt even like Kenobi basically thought he was crazy and Leia never met the guy as far as I can tell. Would have made more sense for Leia to name her son Bail then Ben.


----------



## Stunna (Mar 1, 2016)

did it make _more_ sense for Luke to name his kid Ben? sure

but it's not necessarily illogical that Leia would name her kid Ben


----------



## Turrin (Mar 1, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> i know nobody wants to hear it but it's gonna be Palpatines old master, Plagueis


I really doubt it's going to be plagues, because that doesn't accomplish much in the grand scheme of the universe.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Mar 2, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I really doubt it's going to be plagues, because that doesn't accomplish much in the grand scheme of the universe.



whatchu talkin bout willis?

Plagueis knew about and had access to aspects of the force that even Sheevo didnt...


----------



## Matariki (Mar 2, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> whatchu talkin bout willis?
> 
> Plagueis knew about and had access to aspects of the force that even Sheevo didnt...



and who is Sheevo?


----------



## Vault (Mar 2, 2016)

Sheev is Palpatines first name.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 2, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> whatchu talkin bout willis?
> 
> Plagueis knew about and had access to aspects of the force that even Sheevo didnt...





that doesn't sound right

why would sheev kill him if he hadn't learnt all he could?


----------



## Vault (Mar 2, 2016)

Yet he couldn't pull off the shit Plagueis could do with the force


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 2, 2016)

> To cheat death is *a power **only one has achieved* through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal life


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 2, 2016)

Palps either learned all he could have learned/all Plagsy would ever share/teach him


or he was wary of waiting and keeping Plag alive any longer, it was likely to be very dangerous for him should Plag realize something and Sheev loses the element of surprise to kill him in his sleep which he cant afford to


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2016)

RAGING BONER said:


> whatchu talkin bout willis?
> 
> Plagueis knew about and had access to aspects of the force that even Sheevo didnt...


Knowing stuff and accomplishing stuff are two different things. There are a-lot of Jedi/Sith and force users in the legends continuity that know more of the force and are stronger than Sidious.

My point is Plagueis himself doesn't really accomplish anything besides training palatine. So what point does it serve to bring back Plagueis? It would also be extremely tough to explain where Plagueis has been all this time and why he choose this moment to resurface.


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 2, 2016)

Another strike against Snoke is Plaguis: he writers would also want to differentiate him from Sheev. Palpatine was, according to Lucas himself, the most powerful Sith Lord, and, as far as Ian McDiarmid is concerned, worse than Satan. So they'd have to differentiate Snoke from an all powerful evil Sith Lord just as they differentiate Kylo Ren from Darth Vader.

In light of this, Snoke can't be the most powerful Sith Lord, because that title is taken. He also isn't the most evil person in the SW galaxy because Sheev gonna Sheev. Maybe the writers will try something a little less archetypical and more nuanced like they did with Ren.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 2, 2016)

Snoke already seems a bit less evil then Sheev to me tbh even without knowing who he really is

so its not a problem I reckon


and yes Sidious was #1 while he was alive .. Plags could have surpassed him by ep 7


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2016)

Honestly i'd rather see them do the soul transfering story line w/ palpatine and making Snoke actually palpatine, than see him be plaguis, as I really don't see any point whatsoever to making him be plaguis


----------



## RAGING BONER (Mar 2, 2016)

Plageuis was a visionary; it was _his_ design that led to Palpatines rise _and_ he was willing to share power with him, doing away with the rule of deux.

that already is more nuanced a villain than just being crazy!evil.

Sheev on the other hand wanted to rule alone so under the pretext of celebrating he got him drunk and melted his face off with lightning.


it is no coincidence that Snoke has a disfigured face. I swear this shit is like Tobi=/=Obito all over again.


----------



## Matariki (Mar 2, 2016)

Didn't Sheev have clone bodies somehwere in case he died?


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 2, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Didn't Sheev have clone bodies somehwere in case he died?


non canon


----------



## Gunners (Mar 2, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Honestly i'd rather see them do the soul transfering story line w/ palpatine and making Snoke actually palpatine, than see him be plaguis, as I really don't see any point whatsoever to making him be plaguis



I think the whole ''I don't see the point in x" works better when the alternative presented is superior. 

I don't know who Snoke is but I would prefer Plaguis over Palpatine. Essentially, it pave the way for a new character.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 2, 2016)

Gunners said:


> I think the whole ''I don't see the point in x" works better when the alternative presented is superior.
> 
> I don't know who Snoke is but I would prefer Plaguis over Palpatine. Essentially, it pave the way for a new character.


Like any alternative is superior to the cliche, man behind the man, troupe. I.E. creating a forced connection to the plot for Snoke, by simply shoe horning him in as Palpatines even more powerful master, who was the man who really planned out and manipulated events from the shadows.

Palpatine is at least thee man himself, and therefore a better options than shoe horning in Plaguis. Not saying Palpatine is thee best option though. I personally prefer the idea that Plaguis is ether A) and Inquisitor searching for Darth Vader's successor  or B)Snoke being one of the original Sith Emperors from the Old Sith empire before the rule of 2.



RAGING BONER said:


> it is no coincidence that Snoke has a disfigured face. I swear this shit is like Tobi=/=Obito all over again.


I'm not saying it's impossible Snoke = Plaguis, i'm saying it would be equally as dumb as Tobi = Obito, if it ends up being true.


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 3, 2016)

As irked as some were with Disney getting rid of the old EU, I thought that in many respects, it was the right decision. One thing that kind of bugs me with a bunch of Legends material is how other creators would write in characters, good or evil, that were so much strongerer and coolerer than the strong and cool characters in the actual canon just to stand out.

Remember that video game with the Marty Stu Galen Whateverthefuckhisnameis?


----------



## Skaddix (Mar 4, 2016)

Well my issue with Palps is more if stuffing him down a reactor core and then blowing up the whole weapon doesnt kill him how do you kill him?


----------



## Pilaf (Mar 5, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Didn't Sheev have clone bodies somehwere in case he died?



That's essentially fan fiction.


----------



## Wan (Mar 5, 2016)

Palpatine surviving by having clones of himself was one of the dumbest things from the Legends canon.  It cheapened the whole ending of Return of the Jedi, throwing away a lot of the meaning to Anakin's redemption and sacrifice.  I'm glad that the new canon means that no longer happened.


----------



## Matariki (Mar 5, 2016)

Wan said:


> Palpatine surviving by having clones of himself was one of the dumbest things from the Legends canon.  It cheapened the whole ending of Return of the Jedi, throwing a way a lot of the meaning to Anakin's redemption and sacrifice.  I'm glad that the new canon means that no longer happened.



but it would explain why Vader gave up on his plot from Empire.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 5, 2016)

SW TFA > BvS


----------



## Wan (Mar 5, 2016)

Bannai said:


> but it would explain why Vader gave up on his plot from Empire.



His plot?  I'm not sure what you mean.


----------



## Stunna (Mar 5, 2016)

I assume he's talking about Vader trying to convince Luke to team up with them to kill the Emperor and take his position? Not that I recall Vader giving up on that until he gives up on being a Sith Lord all together.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 5, 2016)

Wan said:


> Palpatine surviving by having clones of himself was one of the dumbest things from the Legends canon.  It cheapened the whole ending of Return of the Jedi, throwing away a lot of the meaning to Anakin's redemption and sacrifice.  I'm glad that the new canon means that no longer happened.


Really don't see a difference between Palpatine surviving, and what we have now w/ Snoke and Ren. Ether way Vader's sacrifice only brought very temporary balance to the force


----------



## Stunna (Mar 5, 2016)

Vader killing the Emperor was bigger than just destroying the Sith. it was Vader consciously destroying his master not to usurp his throne but to save his son. it was the final culmination of a poisonous relationship that had been ongoing for decades.

the Emperor surviving and having a bunch of spares isn't exactly comparable to some new and unrelated villains showing up imo


----------



## Turrin (Mar 5, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Vader killing the Emperor was bigger than just destroying the Sith. it was Vader consciously destroying his master not to usurp his throne but to save his son. it was the final culmination of a poisonous relationship that had been ongoing for decades.


This is still accomplished, even if Palpatine survived.


----------



## Stunna (Mar 5, 2016)

Wan said cheapens, not undoes


----------



## Turrin (Mar 5, 2016)

Stunna said:


> Wan said cheapens, not undoes


And how does it cheapen it anymore than Snoke/Ren?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 5, 2016)

because snoke is not a sith


----------



## Turrin (Mar 6, 2016)

Nighty said:


> because snoke is not a sith


Force still isn't in balance


----------



## Wan (Mar 6, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And how does it cheapen it anymore than Snoke/Ren?



It cheapens it because it accomplishes less.  Vader saving Luke is an even bigger deal because he _killed Palpatine_ to do it, thus contributing to the sense at the end of RotJ that the struggle against the Empire has been won, that the head of the beast has been cut off.  Except no, according to the Legends canon, Palpatine didn't die, and that sense of finality to the Rebels' victory is actually false.

Snoke is a new threat who came along later, who (as far as we know) has nothing to do with the story of RotJ.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 7, 2016)

Wan said:


> It cheapens it because it accomplishes less.  Vader saving Luke is an even bigger deal because he _killed Palpatine_ to do it, thus contributing to the sense at the end of RotJ that the struggle against the Empire has been won, that the head of the beast has been cut off.  Except no, according to the Legends canon, Palpatine didn't die, and that sense of finality to the Rebels' victory is actually false.
> 
> Snoke is a new threat who came along later, who (as far as we know) has nothing to do with the story of RotJ.


Snoke rose out of the ashes of the Empire, so I see literally no difference between that and Palpatine rising up against after barely managing to survive Vader's betrayal.


----------



## Wan (Mar 7, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Snoke rose out of the ashes of the Empire, so I see literally no difference between that and Palpatine rising up against after barely managing to survive Vader's betrayal.



Then you're being obtuse. Plus we don't exactly know what Snoke's origin is yet.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 8, 2016)

Wan said:


> Then you're being obtuse.


Attacking my character doesn't make your argument any more or less effective. Palpatine rising back up or Snoke rising back up, means the same thing for Vader's sacrifice, that it did not bring balance to the force or that said balance did not last long. Ether way the result is the same. 



> Plus we don't exactly know what Snoke's origin is yet.


Doesn't matter what snoke's origin is, the left over remnants of the empire is what allowed Snoke to build the First Order.


----------



## Karasu (Mar 8, 2016)

The fact that people are still talking about this movie

 

can't understand.


----------



## Zeta42 (Mar 8, 2016)

People still talk about A New Hope after 40 years, why are you surprised?


----------



## Mider T (Mar 8, 2016)

Karasu said:


> The fact that people are still talking about this movie
> 
> 
> 
> can't understand.



Because we have over a year and a half until the next one.


----------



## Matariki (Mar 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I assume he's talking about Vader trying to convince Luke to team up with them to kill the Emperor and take his position? Not that I recall Vader giving up on that until he gives up on being a Sith Lord all together.



there was no more scheming in Return of the Jedi..

even though he had time alone with Luke


----------



## reiatsuflow (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm surprised it won't even pass Titanic in the international box office. An international box office from 1997.

At least its domestic total is probably safe for a very long time. Nobody's touching that amount. Not even the evil witch king james cameron.


----------



## Wan (Mar 8, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]i_TV_7e1yiQ[/YOUTUBE]



Turrin said:


> Attacking my character doesn't make your argument any more or less effective. Palpatine rising back up or Snoke rising back up, means the same thing for Vader's sacrifice, that it did not bring balance to the force or that said balance did not last long. Ether way the result is the same.
> 
> 
> Doesn't matter what snoke's origin is, the left over remnants of the empire is what allowed Snoke to build the First Order.



You misunderstand.  I'm not saying your argument is wrong because you're obtuse.  I'm saying you're obtuse if you sincerely believe what you said.   If Palpatine rises back up, that means Vader didn't ultimately destroy his own master, and didn't actually save Luke from Palpatine.  His death has less meaning.  Snoke rising up years, decades later, doesn't affect that.  You'd be pretty obtuse to actually believe there is literally no difference between the two of them.

And the whole "bringing balance to the force" was bullshit from the prequels and also has little to do with Return of the Jedi's actual ending or Vader's arc in the original trilogy.  Not something I particularly care about.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 9, 2016)

Wan said:


> If Palpatine rises back up, that means Vader didn't ultimately destroy his own master.


So....



> , and didn't actually save Luke from Palpatine.


Palpatine was going to kill Luke, and Vader stopped him, so yes he did still save Luke. Only way you could argue he failed to save Luke is if Palpatine, survival leads to Luke's death.



> His death has less meaning. t


Vader's death was about him finding the goodness he still had in him and brining balance to the force. Nether of those things change if Palpatine survives.


----------



## Wan (Mar 9, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So....



So...you concede?  Or you're being obtuse?



> Palpatine was going to kill Luke, and Vader stopped him, so yes he did still save Luke. Only way you could argue he failed to save Luke is if Palpatine, survival leads to Luke's death.



He saved Luke, temporarily.  But if Palpatine came back to threaten Luke again, that means that Vader's sacrifice was just a delay, not the actual thing that stopped Palpatine.  In other words, the climax of the Star Wars original trilogy _isn't actually the climax of the conflict between Luke and Palpatine._  And that's bullshit.



> Vader's death was about him finding the goodness he still had in him and brining balance to the force. Nether of those things change if Palpatine survives.



Finding the goodness in him, yes.  But also finding the willpower in him to defy his Master.  "You don't know the power of the Dark Side.  I _must obey my master."  When he finally does, he kills his master, all to save his son.  Except whoops, turns out in the EU he actually didn't.

You keep mentioning the "bringing balance to the force" bit as if I care about that prequel trilogy crap or it's relevant to my point about Return of the Jedi's ending and the original trilogy._


----------



## Kuromaku (Mar 9, 2016)

Bringing balance to the Force=destroying the Sith=Sheev and Vader are no longer Sith=Vader dies and Anakin is redeemed, Sheev gets thrown down a hole that for some inexplicable reason wasn't covered by whoever designed the room, perhaps the same guy who was okay with including a frigging weak point in the first Death Star

By this logic then, with the Sith gone, Snoke is probably a different animal from the Sith, even if he does appear to believe in the power of the Dark Side. Here's one possible idea: they might be playing on the whole concept of some people deluding themselves about there not being a wrong way to go about using the Force that was a thing in Legends. Maybe, in contrast to Sheev's (and by extension, the rest of the Sith) being all okay with being evil sociopathic pricks, Snoke might believe himself above Good and Evil, only for the story to gradually make clear that he's just an arrogant, self-serving prick in his own right. That'd be one way to revitalize the simple, but universal morality of SW in a popular culture that emphasizes shades of gray, kind of like how the original film did the same during the very cynical 1970s.


----------



## Zeta42 (Mar 13, 2016)

More criticism towards Rey's character (or maybe the story in general). Why is this strong independent woman, well, strong and independent? Why wasn't she a slave?

Think about it. A little girl is left in the middle of nowhere all alone. She grows up, working for a shady guy who pays her for whatever parts she can salvage, and she barely gets by. Sounds like it could be worse, that the guy is relatively nice? Well, all that changes once he sees the droid she found. After his attempt to buy it from her fails, he sends some guys to steal it from her.

So here's my question. If he isn't above stealing (and most likely harming Rey in the process), why was he above slavery? Nothing is easier than taking an abandoned little girl and selling her off, or make her do tasks for you for free. It's not like there was anybody around who could stop him, was there? So why didn't he? Is it bad writing, or does the guy know something about Rey that we don't, and that's the reason he couldn't be too rough with her? Or maybe his connections suck and he just doesn't know any slave traders?


----------



## Stunna (Mar 13, 2016)

it's certainly curious why she wasn't a slave, but I wouldn't call it an _issue_, necessarily


----------



## Magnum Miracles (Mar 13, 2016)

She's the chosen one .


----------



## Stunna (Mar 13, 2016)

Wan said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> [YOUTUBE]i_TV_7e1yiQ[/YOUTUBE]


kinda done with entertaining the similarity apologists for now tbh

I feel like at this point, everyone's pretty settled on whether they believe the shit ton of similarities are a good thing or a bad one

I'm on the side that says they were egregious and really hurt the movie, and tbh, no one is ever gonna change my mind


----------



## Gunners (Mar 13, 2016)

Zeta42 said:


> More criticism towards Rey's character (or maybe the story in general). Why is this strong independent woman, well, strong and independent? Why wasn't she a slave?
> 
> Think about it. A little girl is left in the middle of nowhere all alone. She grows up, working for a shady guy who pays her for whatever parts she can salvage, and she barely gets by. Sounds like it could be worse, that the guy is relatively nice? Well, all that changes once he sees the droid she found. After his attempt to buy it from her fails, he sends some guys to steal it from her.
> 
> So here's my question. If he isn't above stealing (and most likely harming Rey in the process), why was he above slavery? Nothing is easier than taking an abandoned little girl and selling her off, or make her do tasks for you for free. It's not like there was anybody around who could stop him, was there? So why didn't he? Is it bad writing, or does the guy know something about Rey that we don't, and that's the reason he couldn't be too rough with her? Or maybe his connections suck and he just doesn't know any slave traders?



The reward for selling her probably wouldn't be that great. He'd get money but at the same time he'd lose her labour. 

That said, selling someone into slavery is significantly worse than having someone mugged. It's not a contradiction if someone is prepared to do the latter as it could be a case of where they draw the line.


----------



## DemonDragonJ (Mar 13, 2016)

Several pages ago, users were discussing the discarding of events from the expanded universe, and I suppose that Palpatine's resurrection is an acceptable loss, but I do hope that this new continuity retains Boba Fett escaping from the Sarlacc, since the executives at Lucasfilm must be aware of how immensely popular he is, so they would not risk angering the fans by having that supremely undignified event be the end of his character.

Also, on the subject of immensely popular characters, I really hope that the story writers find some way to re-incorporate Mara Jade into this continuity, because she is one of the most popular characters in the entire expanded universe. There currently are rumors that Thrawn may appear in _Rebels,_ so, if he can be re-introduced, then so can she, in my mind.


----------



## Raidoton (Apr 6, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]vs3sVrm_W4o[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## KENSHlN (Apr 6, 2016)

I'm a big fan of Star Wars here. xD
Obviously this is way too much to read. 

But I loved the choreography in the prequels. Jedi in their prime. 
There was only one part I didn't like and that was when Anakin and Obi wan just started spinning their lightsabers around each other. My wtf moment. xD If they deleted that part, it would have been flawless in my eyes. 

Love that Disney got it now.


----------



## reiatsuflow (Apr 6, 2016)

> More criticism towards Rey's character (or maybe the story in general). Why is this strong independent woman, well, strong and independent? Why wasn't she a slave?
> 
> Think about it. A little girl is left in the middle of nowhere all alone. She grows up, working for a shady guy who pays her for whatever parts she can salvage, and she barely gets by. Sounds like it could be worse, that the guy is relatively nice? Well, all that changes once he sees the droid she found. After his attempt to buy it from her fails, he sends some guys to steal it from her.
> 
> So here's my question. If he isn't above stealing (and most likely harming Rey in the process), why was he above slavery? Nothing is easier than taking an abandoned little girl and selling her off, or make her do tasks for you for free. It's not like there was anybody around who could stop him, was there? So why didn't he? Is it bad writing, or does the guy know something about Rey that we don't, and that's the reason he couldn't be too rough with her? Or maybe his connections suck and he just doesn't know any slave traders?



I've mentioned it before somewhere, but I would have been down for introducing Rey almost like a witchy Carrie character. She could have these bizarre force powers that she doesn't understand, and that other people don't really understand, since the force has drifted back into mysticism.

Otherwise, one bugaboo. Using women for slavery or trafficking, or some other grimdark thing, isn't always the realistic route. A lost child wandering around isn't always abducted or murdered or something. We've started thinking that's just the way the world is because of game of thrones. We've even started thinking that's the way ancient history is because of very particular, warring times in particular regions. We've gotten into this perspective where a certain kind of violence or threat is realistic, and we gravitate towards things like Walking Dead because we're all, _That's more realistic, that the world would fall into murderous raping ruin. _ 

But that's not necessarily true. That's not true of today and it's not even true of history. Even medieval history. Even game of thrones era history.

This whole grimdark version of culture this generation gets off on is as much of a fantasy as the romantic traditional fantasies of middle earth and the like. 

Even if this wasn't a fantasy family movie that's perfectly within its right to give young women fun escapism that doesn't involve their being enslaved, and even if this was set in some real world situation, it's still plausible that some orphaned girl wanders around some sort of scrapper bedouin culture selling this and that.


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## The World (Apr 7, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs3sVrm_W4o[/YOUTUBE]

pretty much summed up all my thoughts about this movie really


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## Jessica (Apr 7, 2016)

I love Honest Trailers so much, and this one really was very accurate. I don't love the movie any less for what it is, though.


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## Lucaniel (Apr 7, 2016)

this honest trailer made me realise why they changed the voiceover guy 

that old one sounded pretty bad. choked and phlegmy.


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## Stunna (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm low key surprised they didn't go full fanboy and apologist

good job


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## Skaddix (Apr 7, 2016)

They usually don't. Except I think Avengers.


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## Lucaniel (Apr 7, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I'm low key surprised they didn't go full fanboy and apologist
> 
> good job



they never have

the only fully positive honest trailer i remember is die hard

which is fine, cuz die hard


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## Stunna (Apr 7, 2016)

Screen Junkies has

dunno if they have with their honest trailers, but they have in their other material


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## Wan (Apr 8, 2016)

Stunna said:


> I'm low key surprised they didn't go full fanboy and apologist
> 
> good job



If anything, they poke fun at their own desire to go full fanboy. And even if they really are fanboys, I don't expect them to go "apologist" or whatever.  Stuff like Honest Trailers, How It Should Have Ended, Cinema Sins, etc, are meant to poke fun at things, whether or not they're actually really good.


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## Wan (Apr 18, 2016)

So JJ Abrams of all people had some loose lips with regards to Rey's parentage...



"Rey's parents are not in Episode VII. So I can't possibly say in this moment who they are. But I will say it is something that Rey thinks about, too."

If Rey's parents aren't in Episode VII, that pretty clearly indicates that she's not Luke's daughter.  He later tried to backpedal and say that Rey doesn't _find out_ who her parents are, but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't "In her world already" -- still, that casts doubt on Luke being her father, since presumably Rey is going to have spent a lot of time with him and it makes little sense to go through the whole movie without Rey finding out that Luke is her father. At least, that's what I hope; I've never been a fan of the "Luke is Rey's father" theory.


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## Wan (Apr 18, 2016)

[YOUTUBE]ly8e4YUDMI8[/YOUTUBE]


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2016)




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## Zeta42 (Apr 19, 2016)

I hope Rey is a Kenobi. If Obi-Wan rekt Anakin's ass, there's nothing strange about Obi-Wan's granddaughter doing the same to Anakin's grandson.


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## A. Waltz (Apr 19, 2016)

Wan said:


> So JJ Abrams of all people had some loose lips with regards to Rey's parentage...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i wonder if this rules out obi wan. technically he was in the movie through the voice over. 
personally i think id prefer it if she's not a kenobi. that way it doesn't feel too fate-forced. "out of all these families in the universe, just these two are destined to fight each other" kind of thing. im ok with the skywalkers continuing to be relevant since that was their origin. but kenobi was just this basic good person. nothing particularly special that the force made him or anything. yeah he was relevant and im sure the force probably did favor him at times but iuno. itd be a bit obnoxious for them to turn his lineage into this special destined thing as well.


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## Skaddix (Apr 19, 2016)

Agreed besides what makes Kenobi good is everything Rey is not. Rey is just naturally great and OP. Kenobi is the guy who was never listed as having a super high midi count and just overpowering foes. He is the thinking man strategist.


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