# Sauron vs Arthas/Lich King



## Luxiano (Nov 22, 2009)

Sauron ( LOTR ) 



*VS*


Arthas/Lich King ( Warcraft )


Both sides are bloodlusted.

Who takes this ?


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## Lord Stark (Nov 22, 2009)

Uh Sauron is a demi-God...Lich King gets demolished.


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## Luxiano (Nov 22, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Uh Sauron is a demi-God...Lich King gets demolished.



 , could Arthas/Lich King curbstomps the Witch King though ?


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## Lord Stark (Nov 22, 2009)

NexulOkay said:


> , could Arthas/Lich King curbstomps the Witch King though ?



Depends on which Witch-King.  If this is normal Witch-King as of Fellowship of the Ring...IDK 
Technically the only way to kill a Nazgul is by killing Sauron himself, or have magic capable of destroying the Nazgul
example: blade Merry used to stab the Witch-King left him susceptible to Eowyn's attack.
But if this is the Witch King during the battle of the pelenor fields.  Hell no, Sauron was imbuing him with his own power.


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## FireEel (Nov 22, 2009)

IDK. What are some of Sauron's feats?

The current Lich King pretty much have no worthy combat feat, but he is acknowledged as being one of the most powerful beings in the world, when compared to arch-demons like Archimonde who's capable of destroying the strongest mage-city in the world with extreme ease(we are talking about a city ruled by wizards capable of vaporizing thousands of demons with a single spell. Archimonde created a sand castle of the city, then smashed it. Result was that the entire city was smashed the same as sand castle.).


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 22, 2009)

FireEel said:


> IDK. What are some of Sauron's feats?
> .



helped the other ainui create the universe

got into a battle of mind fuckery with a powerful wizard

morfed into a gigantic wherewolf and took on a devine hound (who in another fight mountain busted with just his howling)


survived an entire island continant  being dropped on his face...and some divine lighting..After he gave god the middle finger and really pissed him off

wide range of mind fucking feats illusion casting..He's basically what fangirls wish itachi was on this department

controlled werewolves and vampires


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## FireEel (Nov 24, 2009)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> helped the other ainui create the universe
> 
> got into a battle of mind fuckery with a powerful wizard
> 
> ...



Why...why was he just smacking dozens of soldiers about with his mace?

I 'd assumed he would be able to kill them all quite casually.


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## Zaru (Nov 24, 2009)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> helped the other ainui create the universe
> 
> got into a battle of mind fuckery with a powerful wizard
> 
> ...


That sounds like badly written LOTR fanfiction, 'the fuck


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 24, 2009)

Zaru said:


> That sounds like badly written LOTR fanfiction, 'the fuck



thats exactly what the silmarillion is

Tolkiens original work..was apparantly..a massive steroid fest

first and second age...was an era where...y'know those giant flaiming fire demons Gandalf died fighting? the Balrog

yeah elve kings  could fight an entire division of them while on fire and being stabbed..and where so powerful..the sheer might of their spirit..burned away their wounded body (no said platoon of giant fire beasts didn't kill him..they certainly did him a number though)

or your human kings..could lay waste to armies..of orcs and big ass trolls made to be the elite body gaurds of the above giant flaming monsters..

and only loose because the sheer amount of dead bodies..burry them alive

yeah..Silmarillion..is broken as hell

the main trilogy is an era where everything is much weaker and less powerful



FireEel said:


> Why...why was he just smacking dozens of soldiers about with his mace?
> 
> I 'd assumed he would be able to kill them all quite casually.



Cause the movies aren't exactly awesome or canon

in the silmarillion and in i think some of the lotr trilogy apendicies

he fights three super humans..and pretty much cooks two of them to death with his aura (gil galad and isildurs dad died from the heat and evil coming off his body) 

one of them i think wielded a plot device spear specifically made to fuck up evil shit..and the other..well Narsil become a plot devicey sword for aragorn later 

his physical body failed him...and his ring got jacked

but given Maia are essentially formless energy beings..that only crippled him for a few millenium

heck i think a major point in LOTR is to destroy the ring before Sauron recovers enough power to get himself a new body


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## Zaru (Nov 24, 2009)

Don't even mention the movies, they're hardly different from the trilogy, featwise

Appendices and Silmarillion are to LotR what EU is to Star Wars


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 24, 2009)

Zaru said:


> Don't even mention the movies, they're hardly different from the trilogy, featwise
> 
> *Appendices and Silmarillion are to LotR what EU is to Star Wars*



err no no..the dial is at eleven in the books too

....Gandalf causes a storm that can be seen for miles..in his fight with the nazgul at amon hen (i think is the name of the watch tower)

in fact frodo who was like a few days away...(or was it weeks) could see it...and made note of it on the way there with aragorn

and then an even huger one against the balrog..and it was specifically noted he ahd been exhuasted running around inside the mountain 

then you have Galadrial who's a mini emma frost (seriously this chicks fucking powerful)

Fingolfin feanor..hurin etc etc in sill all rather broken


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## Zaru (Nov 24, 2009)

And then there are cosmics like Tom Bombadil


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 24, 2009)

Zaru said:


> And then there are cosmics like Tom Bombadil



not sure if he was a cosmic..he was just random

tolkien pulled a kubo with that

he even pretty much was like "yeah..umm i don;t know why that dudes there..oh yeah..cause he was a doll my kids had..yeah"


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## noobthemusical (Nov 24, 2009)

I assumed he was a high level earth Spirit.


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## Reddan (Nov 24, 2009)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> thats exactly what the silmarillion is
> 
> Tolkiens original work..was apparantly..a massive steroid fest
> 
> ...



What you said is mostly true, but there are a few mistakes. Most of them are not your fault, but due to Tolkien constantly editing the story. Elf Kings could not fight entire divisions of Balrogs. They were only about 8-10 Balrogs, but Feanor and a few friends probably fought about 9 or 10 balrogs leading a small army.



> or your human kings..could lay waste to armies..of orcs and big ass trolls made to be the elite body gaurds of the above giant flaming monsters..
> 
> and only loose because the sheer amount of dead bodies..burry them alive


Yep this kind of true. Hurin fought against the Morgoths entire army by himself. Orc battalions ran at the sight of Beren and he was only driven back when are army under Sauron was set out of him. Turin smashed large numbers of orcs, but would not say an army.



> yeah..Silmarillion..is broken as hell
> 
> the main trilogy is an era where everything is much weaker and less powerful



This is true again, but there are some notable exceptions. Gandalf, Sauron, Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel were pretty powerful. But even they would not be the best amongst their specific races. Aragorn was a better and wiser man than most of his ancestors, but again you are right and he paled in comparison to their strength. Isildur and Anarion were a good 6 inches taller whilst Elendil and most probably Ar-pharazon were about 18 inches taller than him.





> Cause the movies aren't exactly awesome or canon
> 
> in the silmarillion and in i think some of the lotr trilogy apendicies
> 
> he fights three super humans..and pretty much cooks two of them to death with his aura (gil galad and isildurs dad died from the heat and evil coming off his body)


The movies are enjoyable and well done but do not make much sense story wise and vastly different from the book. Slight mistake here he only fights two superhumans; Gilgalad and ELendil. Elendil was 7,11 had over 300 years experience etc. Gilgalad was the High King of elves and a beast too. Sauron does not cook them to death with his aura he grabs Gilgalad and his entire body is burning hot so when he touches you, you die. Not mentioned how he killed Elendil, but probably the same way. 




> one of them i think wielded a plot device spear specifically made to fuck up evil shit..and the other..well Narsil become a plot devicey sword for aragorn later
> 
> his physical body failed him...and his ring got jacked



No plot device spear sword. All well made magical weapons of the past could harm demonic creatures. The spear and Narsil were just a couple of these well made magical weapons. No plot device that the kings of the nations had the best swords.



> but given Maia are essentially formless energy beings..that only crippled him for a few millenium
> 
> heck i think a major point in LOTR is to destroy the ring before Sauron recovers enough power to get himself a new body



It's wrong to claim Maia are energy beings. They are metaphysical in the same way we think of angels. They have no natural form we could contain or touch except through "spiritual" power. 
You are right though and Maia are in essence formless creatures, but to affect the world they must take on physical form. Doing this for evil reasons  greatly weakens them and they become bound to their physical form. So when their physical form dies then they revert to their spiritual form, but to weak to accomplish anything.

Sauron have died at the destruction of the continent of Numenor and due to his evil and bond to a physical body would have been unable to ever form a body again. However, because most of his power was in the ring he was able to form a body some hundred years later.

Note this does not really apply for good Maia, who take and dismiss physicall form at will.


The major point of the LOTR is what to do with the ring. Sauron had already taken physical form some 60 years ago. The West thought they could win if 

1. They gave the ring to some champion
2. Stopped Sauron from getting the ring.

Due to being good they chose option 2 and decided to stop him from getting it for good by destroying it. 

Half way through the story they realise Sauron is too powerful and he is going to win whether he has the ring or not. In fact he has an army in the millions he could call. So there only hope of winning is to destroy the ring.

Sauron does not come out and fight or do much, because he does not have too. He is going to win the war and he knows it. Only trouble in his mind is if someone takes the ring and turns his forces against him.


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## Lord Stark (Nov 24, 2009)

FireEel said:


> Why...why was he just smacking dozens of soldiers about with his mace?
> 
> I 'd assumed he would be able to kill them all quite casually.



For fun.  Sauron smacking them around with his uber mace.
.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of his true power.


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## Rice Ball (Nov 24, 2009)

Personally i didn't think Sauron was impressive at all.
Well Arthas's sword is a soul stealer, so could do some damage. Arthas himself was pretty strong before merging.


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## Zaru (Nov 24, 2009)

I never played Wow properly so I don't know, how strong is the current incarnation of the lich king arthas?

Original lich king was trapped in ice and weakened, yet managed to mindfuck people over an ocean distance into following him. That was about his best "feat" overall.

Arthas pre-merging could be beaten by naruto.


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## Raigen (Nov 24, 2009)

You need to read the Novels as well as play the games to get an understanding of WoW. And if this isn't Maiar Sauron, then he's getting his ass handed to him. Arthas before becoming a true Death Knight was a decently powerful Paladin. He had fought against Orcs, undead and the Nerubians in Northrend along with other creatures and those giant viking dudes. After taking up Frostmourne and becoming a Death Knight, he became even stronger. Even in a weakened state he had the power to raise a large dragons corpse as a Frostwyrm (shown in WC3:TFT).

Ner'zhul as the Lich King, sealed in the armor was trapped in demonic crystals gathered from the Twisting Nether. This magnified his consciousness thousands of times over and enabled him to control the undead Scourge from anywhere on the planet and gave him a certain level of omniscience. Merging with Arthas to become The Lich King combined Arthas' abilities with Ner'zhul who was a powerful shaman turned Warlock, still above Gul'dan who had created a colossal volcano in Outland called the Hand of Gul'dan which continues to spew out fel-magma endlessly even long after his death.

In the "Rise of the Lich King" novel it shows LK affecting the weather on a global scale unconsciously while dreaming due to an internal struggle between his Death Knight persona, Ner'zhul's spirit, and his innocence; his child-like self which remains as the last remnants of his humanity. His Human part appears sick, diseased and dying, with Ner'zhul and LK just waiting for this last shred of himself to finally die out so there will be no mercy left in him.

As much as the Lich King is thought out to be a powerful presence, it's not so much due to his personal power as his control over the undead and what the Fel Crystals enabled him to do. Any of the Aspects and a number of Mages are more powerful than he is, however his protection in Northrend is immense and only more Holy objects can do him the most harm. He is still quite powerful though, however if any of the Old Gods had been allowed to awaken and regain their former powers, Arthas, the Aspects and everyone else would amount to nothing in the wake of their corruption.

I will say this; no lame elf-enchanted Blade will beat Arthas like it did Sauron. Practically every top-tier in WoW and any number of leaders (army or otherwise, all factions) have weapons/armor that're magically amplified, and as shown at the Wrath Gate, LK shattered such weapons easily. It's also shown through the manga that LK possesses regenerative abilities as well. And yes, it's all canon.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 24, 2009)

arednad said:


> What you said is mostly true, but there are a few mistakes. Most of them are not your fault, but due to Tolkien constantly editing the story. Elf Kings could not fight entire divisions of Balrogs. They were only about 8-10 Balrogs, but Feanor and a few friends probably fought about 9 or 10 balrogs leading a small army



nine or ten t rex sized flaming monstrosities..that where previous powerful enough to turn away a roided up ungoliant

and Feanor i think expressly fought them alone for awhile (laughing at them and such like) before his kids backed him up and drove them off

is impressive as hell Given gandalf barely handled a diminished durins bane 




arednad said:


> Yep this kind of true. Hurin fought against the Morgoths entire army by himself. Orc battalions ran at the sight of Beren and he was only driven back when are army under Sauron was set out of him. Turin smashed large numbers of orcs, but would not say an army.



i was just thinking about what hurin did not mentioning the others...

Turin was nuts enough to steal a gem right from under Morgoths sleeping head



arednad said:


> This is true again, but there are some notable exceptions. Gandalf, Sauron, Elrond, Glorfindel and Galadriel were pretty powerful. But even they would not be the best amongst their specific races. Aragorn was a better and wiser man than most of his ancestors, but again you are right and he paled in comparison to their strength. Isildur and Anarion were a good 6 inches taller whilst Elendil and most probably Ar-pharazon were about 18 inches taller than him.



Aragorn himself was slightly stronger then a joe blow human and yeah thats what i was getting at...Isildur and his pop would probably baby shake the guy

and Galadriel might of been the most powerful aside from was it finrod that fought sauron in a magical duel?

and feanor and fingolfin

i honestly don't know if even gil galad and cirdan could compare

i mean Sauron himself couldn't get threw her mental defenses and she was so powerful a ring wielding sauron himself would of had to take on Lothlorien to defeat her

plus the ass whooping she laid out in the apendices was it of mirkwood or dul gurdur was pretty epic 


i would also say give glorifendels was a reincarnation him Galadriel Elrond and Gandalf are more relics of an older era

especially cirdan who was what? fifteen thousand years old or something insane like that?



arednad said:


> The movies are enjoyable and well done but do not make much sense story wise and vastly different from the book. Slight mistake here he only fights two superhumans; Gilgalad and ELendil. Elendil was 7,11 had over 300 years experience etc. Gilgalad was the High King of elves and a beast too. *Sauron does not cook them to death with his aura he grabs Gilgalad and his entire body is burning hot so when he touches you, you die. Not mentioned how he killed Elendil, but probably the same way. *



thats what i meant..also i think in the silly they mention they where being afflicted while battlig the guy not just when he grabbed them

and i think they had Elendil die the same way



arednad said:


> No plot device spear sword. All well made magical weapons of the past could harm demonic creatures. The spear and Narsil were just a couple of these well made magical weapons. No plot device that the kings of the nations had the best swords.



they where first and second age relics of considerable might that did especial damage to what sauron was

i'd say its plot divecy 

also is it just me or have you noticed all the evil numinoreans..and easterlings all have Arabic sounding names?

damn tolkien


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## Tobirama (Nov 24, 2009)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> also is it just me or have you noticed all the evil numinoreans..and easterlings all have Arabic sounding names?



Do you have any particular examples? I started The Silmarillion about a week ago and am half way through, and, apart from the sweeping statements made by Tolkien in LotR about the Easterlings and Southrons, there aren't any names mentioned.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 24, 2009)

Tobirama said:


> Do you have any particular examples? I started The Silmarillion about a week ago and am half way through, and, apart from the sweeping statements made by Tolkien in LotR about the Easterlings and Southrons, there aren't any names mentioned.



well its more in the depictions and descriptions of the easterlings

the really Arabic or ottomon style sounding names are from the fallen numorians or those under Saurons thrawl

Ar-pharazon  i think the vice captain of the nazgul (second in command or what ever its called) was named Kuzamel or somthing like that

the Dwarves too have generally eastern sounding names.when it comes to places and their language ..and their associated with greed ambition and relentless endurance (allusion to jews maybe?)

i'm not saying it was deliberate mind you..and it might be just more it comes off like that...then tolkien deliberately doing it 

in any case CS Lewis was kinda worse


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## Reddan (Nov 25, 2009)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> nine or ten t rex sized flaming monstrosities..that where previous powerful enough to turn away a roided up ungoliant
> 
> and Feanor i think expressly fought them alone for awhile (laughing at them and such like) before his kids backed him up and drove them off
> 
> is impressive as hell Given gandalf barely handled a diminished durins bane



Yep it is very impressive and even more so when you take into account though Feanor was the most powerful of his family he was not the best fighter. Fingolfin was better and maybe, maybe even a couple of his sons.






> i was just thinking about what hurin did not mentioning the others...
> 
> Turin was nuts enough to steal a gem right from under Morgoths sleeping head



Hurin was more impressive, but think Beren's deeds are incredible too. He pretty much waged war on Morgoth by himself and was taken out orc batallions by himself. He was given the highest bounty for any enemy of Morgoth. Also Beren was the one, who stole the Silmaril. 





> Aragorn himself was slightly stronger then a joe blow human and yeah thats what i was getting at...Isildur and his pop would probably baby shake the guy



Aragorn was not slightly stronger than the average guy unless you think the average guy has can compete in a world strongest man competition. Aragorn is far, far stronger than an average guy today. He is faster better in everything single way. He runs about 120 miles in 4 days. He is about 6,5 ish and ridiculously skilled. 



> and Galadriel might of been the most powerful aside from was it finrod that fought sauron in a magical duel?
> 
> and feanor and fingolfin
> 
> ...



Galadriel was definitely one of the most powerful elves, but not the most powerful. Again you are right at Dol Gurdur in Mirkwood she brings down the castle. As you said Feanor and Fingolfin were more powerful. The most powerful elf ever is Luthien without a doubt. She was able to manipulate reality by turning winter into spring. Shape shift into what ever she wanted. Command as the most fearsome werewolf ever to heal with a word. Most impressive of all she put hundreds of thousands orcs, all the balrogs, all the dragons, many werewolves, vampires, other demons and Morgoth himself to sleep. No one compares to her in power not even Sauron or Gandalf. Earendil killed Ungoliant, kills Anchalagon (who mountain bust something bigger than everest by falling) and was said to be able to drive Morgoth (after he sun bust) out of heaven. Elrond himself may have been more powerful than her as well. We dont have many feats for him except commanding the river, being the greatest healer ever, being master of the strongest elvish ring and being the most likely elf to wield the one ring.




> i would also say give glorifendels was a reincarnation him Galadriel Elrond and Gandalf are more relics of an older era
> 
> especially cirdan who was what? fifteen thousand years old or something insane like that?


 Definitely agree with those mentioned being relics of an older era. Yep Cirdan is very old not sure the exact age but it was over 10,000. Cirdan was so old he looked it.





> thats what i meant..also i think in the silly they mention they where being afflicted while battlig the guy not just when he grabbed them
> 
> and i think they had Elendil die the same way



I am not sure they were effected. There was a great heat being emitted from him. Hotter than a house fire, but Elendil and Gilgalad probably could have coped with it. It never mentions exactly how Elendil died just he fell and broke Narsil, but Sauron died as well. Always thought outlasted Gilgalad and managed to land a fatal blow, but was struck by Sauron at the same time.





> they where first and second age relics of considerable might that did especial damage to what sauron was
> 
> i'd say its plot divecy
> 
> ...



Sauron was defeated in the second age by Gil and Elendil so their weapons could not have been relics of that age. Gilgalad was born in the first age. Besides many elves as you noted were more powerful than Sauron. No surprise therefore they could make weapons to harm him. It was not like the spear Aeglos and Narsil were one of a kind. I am sure most elvish and Numenorean Lords carried weapons of equal power. Arpharazon alone had 3 such weapons himself around the same time.

Well the easterlings would be Arabic and the Numenoreans are actually slighty based on Egyptians. The crown of Gondor looks very much like a pharoahs crowns. It is just my opinion, but always, thought evil Numenorean behaviour was much like Britains. With them being the greatest naval force  enslaving the rest of the world and stealing their gold and jewels, because "not much was found on their island".


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 25, 2009)

arednad said:


> Yep it is very impressive and even more so when you take into account though Feanor was the most powerful of his family he was not the best fighter. Fingolfin was better and maybe, maybe even a couple of his sons.



Feanor was The most powerful being ever born in middle earth i think tlkien says somehting like "no elf or man..could match him none that ever shall be or have been or"

or "peerless among the children of illuvitar" 


feanor may or may  not have been a better fighter..but Fingolfin had control and wisedom and skill

Feanor was a batshit insane egotistical angsty selfish homicidal maniac who was probably about as smart as tulkas (not very)

which i think was why fingy lasted longer..and did what he did 

his aura..was also damn impressive..making a bunch of demi gods hide from you because they think..your a full fledged vala coming to kill you

but yeah Feanor was tier zero...with Luthien being an exception because her mom was well a maia which sorta makes it an unfair comparison lol

its just he also happened to be nucking Futs...in an epic epic degree...i mean good lord this guy was crazy 





arednad said:


> Hurin was more impressive, but think Beren's deeds are incredible too. He pretty much waged war on Morgoth by himself and was taken out orc batallions by himself. He was given the highest bounty for any enemy of Morgoth. Also Beren was the one, who stole the Silmaril.



was it beren or turin what waged the one man guerila war against morgoth..

oh lets not forget first age dwarves

when the first king died? and the warves got soo furious enither army even dared to go any where near them? nor stop them from leaving the battle field?

and that dwarf armies pretty much fought who ever they wanted when ever..and seemed to be pretty hardcore in this era too 




arednad said:


> Aragorn was not slightly stronger than the average guy unless you think the average guy has can compete in a world strongest man competition. Aragorn is far, far stronger than an average guy today. He is faster better in everything single way. He runs about 120 miles in 4 days. He is about 6,5 ish and ridiculously skilled.



when i said slightly stronger..i meant of the era..The dunedine blood was watered down

Theoden and borimir even Denethor..had various metahuman esque feats to their name (denethor holding out against suaron to the point where he artificially ages tough ass mind)

not slightly more ubber then modern men...

Cause yeah;..obviously he;d be a freak of nature by our standards


arednad said:


> Galadriel was definitely one of the most powerful elves, but not the most powerful. Again you are right at Dol Gurdur in Mirkwood she brings down the castle. As you said Feanor and Fingolfin were more powerful. The most powerful elf ever is Luthien without a doubt. She was able to manipulate reality by turning winter into spring. Shape shift into what ever she wanted. Command as the most fearsome werewolf ever to heal with a word. Most impressive of all she put hundreds of thousands orcs, all the balrogs, all the dragons, many werewolves, vampires, other demons and Morgoth himself to sleep. No one compares to her in power not even Sauron or Gandalf. Earendil killed Ungoliant, kills Anchalagon (who mountain bust something bigger than everest by falling) and was said to be able to drive Morgoth (after he sun bust) out of heaven. Elrond himself may have been more powerful than her as well. We dont have many feats for him except commanding the river, being the greatest healer ever, being master of the strongest elvish ring and being the most likely elf to wield the one ring.



Galadriel might of been the most powerful non maia left in the world...i honestly...don't think Elrond exceeded her power too much



arednad said:


> Definitely agree with those mentioned being relics of an older era. Yep Cirdan is very old not sure the exact age but it was over 10,000. Cirdan was so old he looked it.




i wish Cirdan did more...his perception, awareness and wisdom seemed to be the greatest of all elves...as well as marine architecture 

but in terms of raw power..i got nothing 

i know Tolkien said he was the oldest elf around

i think he might of been the oldest any where..even among the insanely old and powerful high elves that stayed on manwe's mountain (the ones who leveled a chunk of a continent during their little backing up of Erendil) 

but he didn;t do anything..so i guess he has practical experience...and the beard thats it




arednad said:


> I am not sure they were effected. There was a great heat being emitted from him. Hotter than a house fire, but Elendil and Gilgalad probably could have coped with it. It never mentions exactly how Elendil died just he fell and broke Narsil, but Sauron died as well. Always thought outlasted Gilgalad and managed to land a fatal blow, but was struck by Sauron at the same time.




i think they did mention him partially cooking them...but i;m not sure now

and yeah i think Erendil (or elendil which one fought with the UFO shooting maia empowered arrows at the giant dragon the names kill me)

probably did out last  gilly

that was the one thing that got changed in the movie...Iilsudr kills him in the movie

in the book he just grave robs after the fights over 




arednad said:


> ]Sauron was defeated in the second age by Gil and Elendil so their weapons could not have been relics of that age. Gilgalad was born in the first age. Besides many elves as you noted were more powerful than Sauron. No surprise therefore they could make weapons to harm him. It was not like the spear Aeglos and Narsil were one of a kind. I am sure most elvish and Numenorean Lords carried weapons of equal power. Arpharazon alone had 3 such weapons himself around the same time.



they where actually made by dwarves...i think

least Narsil was

Dwarves get over looked..but Tolkien made them beasts especially their craftmenship 


arednad said:


> Well the easterlings would be Arabic and the Numenoreans are actually slighty based on Egyptians. The crown of Gondor looks very much like a pharoahs crowns. It is just my opinion, but always, thought evil Numenorean behaviour was much like Britains. With them being the greatest naval force  enslaving the rest of the world and stealing their gold and jewels, because "not much was found on their island".



Id of thought Spain..for evil Numinor especially the inquisition like things Ar-pharazon did and the obvious eastern influences (the Mooreish influences in spain) ..and an obvious Atlantis.. and yeah Egypt IMO


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## Reddan (Nov 25, 2009)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Feanor was The most powerful being ever born in middle earth i think tlkien says somehting like "no elf or man..could match him none that ever shall be or have been or"
> 
> or "peerless among the children of illuvitar"
> 
> ...



Nothing to add except Feanor was actually smart unlike Tulkas, but a jackass. He made stupid decisions often knowing the consequences. I mean at his death he knew his kids could not win, but made them swear to keep on fighting.

As for Fingolfin sacring demi Gods and making quake in fear says all about his aura and fighting stength, but he was no the goody goody he makes out. He was not above manipulating the truth and outright lying about his Feanor.






> was it beren or turin what waged the one man guerila war against morgoth..
> 
> oh lets not forget first age dwarves
> 
> ...



Beren waged the one man guerilla war, but Turin waged a small group of bandit war. Both were amazing really.

Yep first age dwarves were hardcore, they are forgotten about, because they are short and ugly. Have not the reference of the top of my head, but I think the bit you are referring to is when Glauraung comes out and decimates the evlish army. The dwarves stand up to fight him, but their king dies gravely wounding the dragon. The drawves get outraged and in carry his body home singing funeral songs. Nobody dares attack them. Says it all really. They also wrecked Doriath and only lost the second time due to Beren ambushing them along with their allies falling out with them.





> when i said slightly stronger..i meant of the era..The dunedine blood was watered down
> 
> Theoden and borimir even Denethor..had various metahuman esque feats to their name (denethor holding out against suaron to the point where he artificially ages tough ass mind)
> 
> not slightly more ubber then modern men...



Okay fair enough my fault for not understanding. Hard to rate fighters on physical strength alone, but basic hierarchy of battle skills goes something like this Dunadain of the North, then High Lords of Gondor, then the Rohan Lords. Every single Ranger, who rode to battle with Aragorn was better than anyone in Rohan. Boromir was better than Faramir, who likewise was also better than anyone in the Rohan. Lifestyle played a big part in strength in Tolkien.





> Galadriel might of been the most powerful non maia left in the world...i honestly...don't think Elrond exceeded her power too much



Galadriel or Elrond is debatable I can see arguments either way. Elrond though is always referred to as Mighty=Powerful, though indicating his power. The most powerful elf left though was Glorfindel. He had Maia power and not average Maia, but strong ones likes Gandalf power. He already could beat a Balrog before his death and was filled with even more power.






> i wish Cirdan did more...his perception, awareness and wisdom seemed to be the greatest of all elves...as well as marine architecture
> 
> but in terms of raw power..i got nothing
> 
> ...


Yeh it's a shame, but when you are wise I suppose you dont get into as much trouble.




> i think they did mention him partially cooking them...but i;m not sure now
> 
> and yeah i think Erendil (or elendil which one fought with the UFO shooting maia empowered arrows at the giant dragon the names kill me)



Names can be confusing sometimes. Elendil was Isildurs dad and the one, who with Gilgalad beat Sauron. Earendil was the one with UFO shooting arrows, who beat Anchalogon the Black. Earendil was the father of Elrond and the ancestor of Elendil and all the Numenorean kings.





> that was the one thing that got changed in the movie...Iilsudr kills him in the movie
> 
> in the book he just grave robs after the fights over



Sadly a lot more was changed in the films, but still think hey were great. In the book it seems like Sauron challenges Gilgalad and Elendil to a duel. He was desperate with his forces being decimated so it was probably his only choice. The reason I think it was a duel, because Isildur, Elrond and Cirdan did not interfere, but were watching. Isildur does grave rob, but he is a far better and stronger guy than the film portrays.

Again you are right Narsil was made by a dwarf called Telchar. The dwarves are no slouches as you mention when it came to crafting. Telchar is also the same guy, who made Berens knife. This is the knife, which cut through iron with ease and was able to cut Morgoths crown. Again can only agree with your sentiment. Dwarves could not even be alterd by the one ring. All it would do would add to their greed. Changing a dwarves mind by force just is not going to happen. Gimli is shown as being equal if not a slightly superior to Legolas at Helms Deep.



> Id of thought Spain..for evil Numinor especially the inquisition like things Ar-pharazon did and the obvious eastern influences (the Mooreish influences in spain) ..and an obvious Atlantis.. and yeah Egypt IMO



Fair enough about Spain. Great analogy as well. Never thought of that one.


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## Raigen (Nov 25, 2009)

I dunno why you guys got so far off topic. Frankly there are numerous WC figures who stomp holy hell over those in LotR. The Brothers Stormrage are more than a match for Fingolfin and Feanor. To be honest, Broxigar could probably take them both out with his enchanted axe.


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