# RM Cloak was to make Naruto = to Sasuke. What kinda boost will he need to = Madara?



## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2011)

*RM Cloak = Rikudo mode cloak/Kyuubi chakra cloak.*

I was just walking up my stairs and it just hit me mates. The Kyuubi chakra cloak was to make him equal to *Sasuke* but no way does it make him a challenge for Madara...not even close. To make matters worse, he has to lose Kyuubi so Madara doesnt look like a fail villan and it creates suspense and hype for the coming of the evil Rikudo sage, Madara Uchicha. 

But if Naruto has to become equal to Madara of all people without Kyuubi...who the hell could equal Naruto in the Narutoverse? Sure, it seems Seal techs seem to be Madara's thorn but the fight needs to involve more than Naruto trying to seal the guy. Maybe Sasuke will help Naruto which...with their combined strength might equal the guy but that's just a guess. Lemme hear what you're thinking.


People losing ONE power- up usually leads to them getting a deadlier power-up. Example. Sasuke losing the curse mark and in return getting the Mangekyo.


----------



## -ScRaTcH- (Mar 19, 2011)

lol that was to match MS Sasuke, you gotta crawl before you walk. He needs a buff to match EMS Sasuke.Then maybe he can dream about Madara


----------



## Lord Stark (Mar 19, 2011)

-ScRaTcH- said:


> lol that was to match MS Sasuke, you gotta crawl before you walk. He needs a buff to match EMS Sasuke.Then maybe he can dream about Madara



Errr wut?
SM Naruto is~MS Sauce


----------



## posternojutsu (Mar 19, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> *RM Cloak = Rikudo mode cloak/Kyuubi chakra cloak.*
> 
> *I was just walking up my stairs and it just hit me mates. The Kyuubi chakra cloak was to make him equal to Sasuke but no way does it make him a challenge for Madara...not even close. To make matters worse, he has to lose Kyuubi so Madara doesnt look like a fail villan and it creates suspense and hype for the coming of the evil Rikudo sage, Madara Uchicha. *But if Naruto has to become equal to Madara of all people without Kyuubi...who the hell could equal Naruto in the Narutoverse? Sure, it seems Seal techs seem to be Madara's thorn but the fight needs to involve more than Naruto trying to seal the guy. Maybe Sasuke will help Naruto which...with their combined strength might equal the guy but that's just a guess. Lemme hear what you're thinking.
> 
> ...



I dunno about what techniques will help him fight Madara, but i am pretty sure we will see Sage Mode combined with RM or the chakra he seperated from Kyuubi. Even if Kyuubi is extracted i have a feeling he will keep that chakra he seperated from it given the explainations we have been given on hosts and bijuu.


----------



## nebojsaxfarseer (Mar 19, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Errr wut?
> SM Naruto is~MS Sauce



totally agree
and for madara telport


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 19, 2011)

-ScRaTcH- said:


> lol that was to match MS Sasuke, you gotta crawl before you walk. He needs a buff to match EMS Sasuke.Then maybe he can dream about Madara



SM Naruto was on par with MS Sasuke. It was not to make him equal to Sasuke. RM Naruto should really be on par with EMS Sasuke, and that is being very kind to Sasuke. The EMS, while I'm sure it's powerful, I'm not sure of how big the boost will be. Even if there is a boost, I severely doubt Sasuke obtaining the ultimate form of the Sharingan will make him faster, increase his chakra capacity, etc. It will give him more abilities at best.


----------



## posternojutsu (Mar 19, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> SM Naruto was on par with MS Sasuke. It was not to make him equal to Sasuke. RM Naruto should really be on par with EMS Sasuke, and that is being very kind to Sasuke. The EMS, while I'm sure it's powerful, I'm not sure of how big the boost will be.* Even if there is a boost, I severely doubt Sasuke obtaining the ultimate form of the Sharingan will make him faster, increase his chakra capacity, etc. It will give him more abilities at best*.



I dunno why people want Sasuke to be boosted all around anyway...Sus alone pretty much makes everyone but extremely high tier ninja useless against him. If EMS only gave him the ability to use techniques without the strain they normally cause on his body that would already be an insane boost. So i agree with you possibly more techniques, but maybe not any kind of real stat boost.


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 19, 2011)

I agree that RM might be to match MS Sasuke. RM Naruto is going to be the underdog against EMS Sasuke, as that's the pattern. However, EMS Sauce will be tougher than Madara in terms of power.


----------



## izanagi x izanami (Mar 19, 2011)

Why Narutotards always try to Make Naruto equal to Sasuke? i don't get it....

it's too obvious to deny that Naruto and his 2 boring jutsu(KB,Rasengan) not Sasuke's equal......

Your loser Naruto was beaten 3 times by Sasuke,,,* 5 times admitted to his inferiority *

according to your loser Naruto ....SM Naruto = weakened and half blind Sasuke..






being Jinjuriki doesn't make you Uchiha genius lvl 

*Spoiler*: __ 









Kuuybi's power is nothing compared to uchiha clans Ultimate power

don't forget that  kuuybi is just uchiha's pet.....


----------



## NarutoIzDaMan (Mar 19, 2011)

Strategos said:


> I agree that RM was to match MS Sasuke. RM Naruto is going to be the underdog against EMS Sasuke. It's like people are immune to pattern themes. However, *EMS Sauce > Madara in terms of power*.



 Do you actually think that Madara will allow Sasuke to become more powerful than him? As for the question as to how Naruto will fight Madara, the answer is simple - "that jutsu". It was left behind for Naruto as a means to fight Madara.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2011)

Black Phoenix said:


> Why Narutotards always try to Make Naruto equal to Sasuke? i don't get it....
> 
> it's too obvious deny that Naruto and his 2 boring jutsu(KB,Rasengan) not Sasuke's equal......
> 
> ...



Lets all just ignore this Uchiha fan and stay on topic. Thank you. I can easily see a rage argument starting off of this.


----------



## EMSFan (Mar 19, 2011)

I always thought that sauske would always be a step of naruto even ten and we have seen that time and time and again but at some point kishi is gonna have to make naruto win wether we like it or not wat I'm seeing in the future is a high-level mastery compared to all the other jinchirikuus(dont kill me for spelling it wrong dont really know atm) making gain that necessary power he needs to 'try' and match sasuke.

Lets face it we've seen sasuke recently, do you really think Naruto will be aloud to talk his way out of such an Epic-to-come fight?I think not.


----------



## Ghost of Madara (Mar 19, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> *RM Cloak = Rikudo mode cloak/Kyuubi chakra cloak.*
> 
> I was just walking up my stairs and it just hit me mates. The Kyuubi chakra cloak was to make him equal to *Sasuke* but no way does it make him a challenge for Madara...not even close. To make matters worse, he has to lose Kyuubi so Madara doesnt look like a fail villan and it creates suspense and hype for the coming of the evil Rikudo sage, Madara Uchicha.
> 
> ...



This is completely incorrect.  The "key"/"that jutsu"/Kyuubi control was all for the stated purpose of defeating Madara.  Its also required for facing Sasuke but their purposes were for Madara.  What he will need for facing Sasuke however is all that in addition to Itachi's crow.


----------



## izanagi x izanami (Mar 19, 2011)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> Errr wut?
> SM Naruto is~MS Sauce



i think MS Sasuke will one shot SM Naruto  
(Tsukiyomi ,Susanoo arrow  Amateratsu, Kagutsuchi)


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Mar 19, 2011)

The only power boost that will raise Naruto to Madara's status is PNJ. 

But seriously, he'd get his ass kicked if he were to face Madara right now, so I suspect this new acquirement of strength will most likely come from the Nine-Tailed Fox. Naruto's been relying on it all his life, why not now?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 19, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> The only power boost that will raise Naruto to Madara's status is PNJ.
> 
> But seriously, he'd get his ass kicked if he were to face Madara right now, so I suspect this new acquirement of strength will most likely come from the Nine-Tailed Fox. Naruto's been relying on it all his life, why not now?



I agree with you.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Mar 19, 2011)

He won't be.

There's no point in having a villain like Madara if he's going to be equal to or weaker than the hero. To have the hero defeat the final is supposed to be something truly heroic and almost unbelievable, which means that when the two fight, Madara > Naruto. 

Final battles where the hero is stronger than the villain are worthless. They don't allow the hero's recognition as such to come full circle. It's just another "Oh yea, I beat that weak guy." Sasuke will be his equal. Madara will be stronger.


----------



## narutored23 (Mar 20, 2011)

the power up would the flying thunder god plus his bijuu balls once he mastered those 2 madarra would actually match madaras intangibility





jaknblak said:


> *RM Cloak = Rikudo mode cloak/Kyuubi chakra cloak.*
> 
> I was just walking up my stairs and it just hit me mates. The Kyuubi chakra cloak was to make him equal to *Sasuke* but no way does it make him a challenge for Madara...not even close. To make matters worse, he has to lose Kyuubi so Madara doesnt look like a fail villan and it creates suspense and hype for the coming of the evil Rikudo sage, Madara Uchicha.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kakashi_Hatake08 (Mar 20, 2011)

Yeah, he needs the Hirashin or whatever its called in order to compete with Madara (hinted by Madara being countered pretty well by Minato, and you know, like father like son).


----------



## Bentham (Mar 20, 2011)

SM sasuke=RM naruto


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 20, 2011)

he most likely won't be equal to madara i suppose idk its hard to say..


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Mar 20, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> The only power boost that will raise Naruto to Madara's status is PNJ.
> 
> But seriously, he'd get his ass kicked if he were to face Madara right now, *so I suspect this new acquirement of strength will most likely come from the Nine-Tailed Fox*. Naruto's been relying on it all his life, why not now?



Just wait until Naruto masters "That Jutsu" and then we'll talk .


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Mar 20, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> Just wait until Naruto masters "That Jutsu" and then we'll talk .



"That Jutsu," you say? Well, I'll give you the special pleasure of telling you that this supposedly mysterious technique is nothing more than...


*Spoiler*: __ 



*KN4.*




Deal with it.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Mar 20, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> "That Jutsu," you say? Well, I'll give you the special pleasure of telling you that this supposedly mysterious technique is nothing more than...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



  *cough Jiraiya *cough*  

Answer this : The only ability of Madara that Minato witnessed was his S/T warping an came to conclusion that Naruto would need the Kyuubi to beat him .So ?

And why the fuck am I responding to a troll ppst


----------



## uchiha no senkō (Mar 20, 2011)

RM Naruto was to exceed MS Sasuke, but EMS Sasuke will overpower RM Naruto.  It's all up to what Itachi gave Naruto for the playing field to be even.  I think a loyal Kyuubi with RM Naruto would give Naruto the advantage over EMS Sasuke.

As for what kind of boost he'll need to match Madara? It's simple, he'll need his bff to fight with him


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Mar 20, 2011)

SuperMinato146 said:


> *cough Jiraiya *cough*
> 
> Answer this : The only ability of Madara that Minato witnessed was his S/T warping an came to conclusion that Naruto would need the Kyuubi to beat him .So ?
> 
> And why the fuck am I responding to a troll ppst



What do you want me to answer? Seems like you're just stating something. 

And what I wrote was nowhere near a "troll post." The reason I placed "..." under a spoiler tag was so that it wouldn't ruin the fun for anyone else. But of course, out of curiosity they may look if they wish. I sincerely hope no one will be disappointed when they find out "that jutsu" isn't some grand, mysterious technique Minato left for Naruto to one day complete. Rather, it's nothing more than...well, you already know.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Mar 20, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> What do you want me to answer? Seems like you're just stating something.
> 
> And what I wrote was nowhere near a "troll post." The reason I placed "..." under a spoiler tag was so that it wouldn't ruin the fun for anyone else. But of course, out of curiosity they may look if they wish.* But I sincerely hope no one will be disappointed when they find out "that jutsu" isn't some grand, mysterious technique Minato left for Naruto to one day complete. Rather, it's nothing more than...well, you already know*.



Yeah..why do you think Minato came to the conclusion?

No will will be disappointed because that ain't gonna happen . And KN4 of all things? I'd like to see the scan of what Jiraiya said ..I'm sure he said it was that power . And Minato would've also expected Naruto to master the Kyuubi someday.


----------



## uchiha no senkō (Mar 20, 2011)

i'm gonna have to award the W to silenceofthelambs due to his hilariousness. but on the other hand "That Jutsu" is not KN4... so i don't really know who wins this debate...


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 20, 2011)

> Your loser Naruto was beaten 3 times by Sasuke,,,




LOL, what?Three times? 





Black Phoenix said:


> according to your loser Naruto ....SM Naruto = weakened and half blind Sasuke..
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



LOL pathetic looser Sascake needed to be saved from Kakashi:


caskets
caskets

It's obvious to anyone with half a brain that Naru didn't want to kill Sascake that time.The bitch Sascake got spared again.Nothing more, nothing less 

RM Naru squashes him like a bug


----------



## UchihaItachi489 (Mar 20, 2011)

Naruto stated in their last encounter that if he and Sasuke fought, they would both die.  That tells me MS Sasuke = SM Naruto.

Sasuke got power up to EMS, Naruto got power up to RM, they are both at this point for all intents and purposes about equal again.

As for the topic.  Naruto will probably get one or both of the following...

Sage RM Mode (this could potentially be so hax it is hard to think about, essentially a faster, stronger, and MUCH more durable RM mode *salivates)
Hirashin (A space time jutsu to counter Madara's)

Do people realize the implications of a S/T RSM Naruto going around a battlefield throwing FRS's?  Talk about domination.  But then again, I imagine that is the kind of power it would take to counter a Rinnegan / EMS user with S/T.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 20, 2011)

Aye...

The "Bijuu Chakra mode-Zero level" Is not The forshadowed key to beating sasuke. It was SUPPOSED to be complete control of kyuubi, since it had the tendency to fuck up naruto's ability to fight well.

The mode he is working in, which everyone has falsely dubbed "rikudou mode", is HARDLY enough for naruto to win. Why?

_He is still not immune to genjutsu, since he and kyuubi are not partners.

His chakra is constantly eaten while using BN0, Thus giving him a ratio of power that is not adequate.For example, Hachibi does not eat Bee's chakra, and gives out a much greater ratio of chakra for what bee lets him borrow.

The ONLY ability he can use is BN0 is the menacing ball rasengan._

Does no one see how nerfed he is? Skillful use of the MS alone could destroy him.
Hell, he may not need that. Chidori eisou, shunshin and the base sharingan could probably do it.

He is a far cry from being anything like rikudou, even though he looks like his silouette, but even that is explainable, since rikudou was the first jinchuuriki. His AURA looks like Rikudou's aura, not anything else.

Realize it is a transitionary phase, like his incomplete sage mode. He isn't even half-way done to his original goal of mastering kyuubi.


----------



## King of the Internet (Mar 20, 2011)

FRS Naruto = Hebi Sasuke
SM Naruto = MS (Taka) Sasuke
RM Naruto = EMS Sasuke

KT Naruto = Madara

We know Naruto is trying to master the Tailed Beast Bomb only because he cant figure out how to transform into the Kyuubi himself. Kishi doesn't allow Naruto to transform for one simple reason. It's his next power-up beyond RM. When he finds a way, he'll be statistically speaking on par with Madara.

Also it would be epic to see the Kyuubi fighting Madara because Kyuubi's been Madara's bitch since he fought Hashirama.

Sharingan control? Hell no, Kyuubi can do a tag-team switch now!


----------



## Chocolate Donut (Mar 20, 2011)

Your answer: a stronger Rasengan. Maybe one that can pierce dimensions. I dunno, it's something only Kishi can pull off.

BTW, Sage Naruto=MS Sasuke
        RM Naruto=EMS Sasuke.

 Anybody who seriously believes that MS Sasuke is stronger than RM Naruto is deluding themselves. Naruto would WTF blitz Sasuke so hard that Sasuke wouldn't even be able to react.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 20, 2011)

King of the Internet said:


> FRS Naruto = Hebi Sasuke
> SM Naruto = MS (Taka) Sasuke
> RM Naruto = EMS Sasuke
> 
> ...



I don't think so mang...

"RM" naruto is probably the worst transformation he has had yet. He has one feat... A shunshin. Sure, Killer bee gave it an awesome shout-out, but the problem is naruto was already able to do a REMARKABLE shunshin in KN0.

Speed is a big whup in the scheme of things. The good thing is kyuubi no longer makes naruto aggressive. The bad thing is since kyuubi was mostly in control, naruto didn't NEED to know how to use him.
Now he does, and he sucks at it. Like everything kishi gives him at first 

BN0<<<<<<<<<<<< KN0. Naruto could even use FRS in KN0, and could make THOUSANDS of clones, compared to his usual limit of 200.
From what I saw with naruto's Menacing ball, It kicks ass, but FRS is more stable.

Also, Naruto controling a kyuubi that is about 1/10 the size of the original one, and Probably half as strong (Lets say the yin half gave him the ability to increase his size to the highest imaginable point)
Is NOT going to put him on par with madara.

He has a rin'negan,
 has access to all paths (preta path makes Bijuu dama moot), 
and If I assume right, can actually downshift into his EMS. Not only that but he can teleport, Phase his particles, and use Izanagi to its fullest.

Naruto with a mastered kyuubi is strong, but let's be real. Akatsuki got famous on CATCHING JINCHUURIKI. The boss isn't going down that easy, especially on a jinchuuriki who can only use half of his bijuu's chakra.


----------



## King of the Internet (Mar 20, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I don't think so mang...
> 
> "RM" naruto is probably the worst transformation he has had yet. He has one feat... A shunshin. Sure, Killer bee gave it an awesome shout-out, but the problem is naruto was already able to do a REMARKABLE shunshin in KN0.
> 
> ...



Clearly you forgot about Kishimoto's Troll no jutsu


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 20, 2011)

King of the Internet said:


> Clearly you forgot about Kishimoto's Troll no jutsu



Damn... You Right 
I forgot naruto became an S-rank Evangelist. 
Let that boy preach!


----------



## Coldhands (Mar 20, 2011)

SM Naruto = MS Sasuke
RM Naruto = EMS Sasuke

Naruto will combine SM and RM obviously (Kishi foreshadowed it in Pain arc) and that's gonna be a freaking huge power up. After that I see him learning Uzumaki fuinjutsu and maybe a jikukan jutsu. Then he might be on Madara's level.


----------



## Spanktastik (Mar 20, 2011)

Black Phoenix said:


> i think MS Sasuke will one shot SM Naruto
> (Tsukiyomi ,Susanoo arrow  Amateratsu, Kagutsuchi)



Yes he will one shot a clone ....




dark messiah verdandi said:


> I don't think so mang...
> 
> "RM" naruto is probably the worst transformation he has had yet. He has one feat... A shunshin. Sure, Killer bee gave it an awesome shout-out, but the problem is naruto was already able to do a REMARKABLE shunshin in KN0.
> 
> ...



EMS has no feat, pfff even MS is better. Also you forgot the chakra claws . Wanna make a bet he isnt as fast with a shunshin in KN0? Even Sasuke at the time could keep up. 

I agree Naruto is like every shinobi in that regard, they learn jutsu and master them overtime. I mean he isnt called Uchiha Naruto, they learn jutsu's and master em when the time calls for it. Just for killing your best friend you gain 3 insta win jutsu's. Or they transfer eyes, they are blind for a while and after that poooooooof EMS and very likely full mastery while they at it.

Naruto doesnt use FRS in KN0 , he cannot throw it either. FRS is more stable? Maybe you need to reread the parts of the manga where Naruto was training. His rasengans always have been unstable at the start... Hell he failed to pull of FRS vs Kakuzu. 

Pain couldnt even bring down half the Kyuubi in 8 tailed mode. Furthermore Naruto is strong, even without using the Kyuubi. 

On the whole madara thingie, Naruto doesnt stand a chance with or without the full support of the Kyuubi .


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 20, 2011)

bama


----------



## JPongo (Mar 20, 2011)

Naruto has been stronger than Sasuke for quite some time already.

Since they were genin.


----------



## uchia2000 (Mar 20, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> LOL pathetic looser Sascake needed to be saved from Kakashi:
> 
> 
> caskets
> caskets



You just linked pages showing Sasuke attacking Kakashi and Naruto jumping in. In what way does that equal Sasuke being saved by Kakashi?


----------



## Jiraiya4Life (Mar 20, 2011)

SM Naruto=MS Sasuke...isn't this obvious?


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 20, 2011)

uchia2000 said:


> You just linked pages showing Sasuke attacking Kakashi and Naruto jumping in. In what way does that equal Sasuke being saved by Kakashi?



Excuse me if i didn't make myself clear enough.I meant that Naru stopped Kakashi from killing Sascake 

Naruto to Kakashi:Are you gonna kill Sascake?

Kakashi:Leave!

*Naru looks almost like he's gonna cry*

.. and then stops Kakashi from killing Sascake.I thought it was obvious what i meant, sorry


----------



## Mio Akiyama (Mar 20, 2011)

Naruto has SM.
Also, who knows what might happen with the "power" Itachi gave Naruto.
It's going to pop up at some unknown god forsaken time, could pop up then.


----------



## uchia2000 (Mar 20, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Excuse me if i didn't make myself clear enough.I meant that Naru stopped Kakashi from killing Sascake
> 
> Naruto to Kakashi:Are you gonna kill Sascake?
> 
> ...



You make it sound like Kakashi was about to one shot Sasuke before Naruto restrained him. Don't forget that Zetsu was also there ready to step in.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 20, 2011)

uchia2000 said:


> You make it sound like Kakashi was about to one shot Sasuke before Naruto restrained him. Don't forget that Zetsu was also there ready to step in.



Kamui = One shot


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 20, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Kamui = One shot



True that 


But anyway i brought on those pages to prove that Naru's retarded respond to Neji's question holds no water:

"Why didn't you finish Sascake right there and then?"


Naruto: "I knew i couldn't defeat Sascake at his current level"


It's not that he knew he couldn't, it's that he didn't want to as proven by his actions aka stopping Kakashi from killing Sascake.

The best Sascake fans can argue is that Naru woundn't be able to defeat Sascake without killing him


----------



## jimbob631 (Mar 20, 2011)

I don't get where this Sasuke has always been superior to Naruto shit comes from.  There equal and even from part 1 Naruto was more impressive.  

Against Haku Naruto was the one he beat him not Sasuke
Against Orochimaru Naruto was the one who didn't cry in the corner
Against Gaara Sasuke got his ass handed to him, Naruto had to handle him

In part 1 Sasuke beat no name ninja and a Naruto without killer intent meanwhile Naruto beat Haku, Neji, Gaara, fought against Orochimaru, and even hit Kabuto with a Rasengan

In part 2 Naruto took down Kakuzu, Pain, and the Nine tails (with help) while Sasuke beat Deidara, Danzo, and had some unfinished fights with kage level opponents, they seem pretty equal to me and anyone arguing otherwise is forgetting the manga is called Naruto, not Sasuke no matter how much they want it to be.


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 20, 2011)

uchia2000 said:


> You make it sound like Kakashi was about to one shot Sasuke before Naruto restrained him. Don't forget that Zetsu was also there ready to step in.



If zetsu would, raikage will probably shunshin to kakashi, and necksnap zetsu.


----------



## Judecious (Mar 20, 2011)

All Naruto needs to be on par or above Madara is "that jutsu" once he completes it then it will be a done deal.


----------



## Deleted member 175252 (Mar 20, 2011)

SM = MS
RM most likely = EMS

RM and EMS < Rinnegan madara

so naruto and sasuke will both need to team up with kabuto to have a chance to take out madara right now


----------



## KillerFlow (Mar 20, 2011)

Whatever Itachi gave him maybe.


----------



## Gabe (Mar 20, 2011)

mixing sage mode and RS mode


----------



## cant i guest post (Mar 20, 2011)

kishi will finally remember the scroll with all the forbidden jutsu on it.  wait that would actually make sense.  btw im guessing oro mustve looked at that to learn  edo tensei


----------



## Judecious (Mar 20, 2011)

Its as easy as it comes
SM Naruto=MS Sasuke
RM Naruto=EMS Sasuke
RM+that jutsu Naruto>Rinnengan Madara=EMS Sasuke


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 20, 2011)

*Sigh* 


Do people seriously still belive that ms sasuke would one shot  sm naruto?    The man that  went toe to toe with a rinneggan user a superior dojutsu?    Do people honestly think RM naruto will lose to sasuke  JUST   becuase of genjutsu?  When it's been stated  sasukes genjutsu is nothing special ?    Seriously I feel every time I come back here  the logic in some  of the posters regresses greatly.


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 20, 2011)

*Does no one see how nerfed he is? Skillful use of the MS alone could destroy him.
Hell, he may not need that. Chidori eisou, shunshin and the base sharingan could probably do it.*


You sir are a fanboy.And I advise no one to read this  persons garbage logic for it might turn you into a complete retard.


----------



## jdbzkh (Mar 21, 2011)

Awe Sasuke fans really do think this story is called Sasuke. People RM is Naruto's final power up at best he'll receive a new move, now in the sudden case I'm wrong and Naruto receives another boost it'll be the Rinnegan. After all Naruto is being set up to be the new Rikudou.


----------



## PikaCheeka (Mar 21, 2011)

Judecious said:


> Its as easy as it comes
> SM Naruto=MS Sasuke
> RM Naruto=EMS Sasuke
> RM+that jutsu Naruto>Rinnengan Madara=EMS Sasuke



Why do people want a final battle where the hero has an advantage?


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Spanktastik said:


> Yes he will one shot a clone ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ems is worse than ms? Are you trolling me?.

And sure, since the V2 forms are a bit more powerful, yes he would be stronger, but sasuke has better eyes now. FAR better.

You say they have no feats, but they do have a feat. All EMS are Eternal. They don't go blind, EVER. So sasuke can enjoy a larger amount of chakra from his MS, powering up the base abilities of his sharingan without going blind.

So his visual capacity rises, something that is good because... MS douryouku work on will, so if his perception is faster, the use of his douryouku is faster.










> I agree Naruto is like every shinobi in that regard, they learn jutsu and master them overtime. I mean he isnt called Uchiha Naruto, they learn jutsu's and master em when the time calls for it. Just for killing your best friend you gain 3 insta win jutsu's. Or they transfer eyes, they are blind for a while and after that poooooooof EMS and very likely full mastery while they at it.


I am mad because it has been eleven years, and naruto was PROMISED the ability to master his kyuubi, and before the war even started. The problem with mastering bijuu was not one of time, but ability.
It doesn't take a long time, mainly because they were supposed to be parters, with one having more experience.

But, instead of being stronger, he gets told that he can't use ANY OF HIS SIGNATURE JUTSU in the form. It sucks dick.

Also, MS doesn't instantly give you jutsu, you kind of have to either make them yourself, or have someone teach you. It isn't that they are automatic, just that all of them have the capacity to use those jutsu. You have to know they exist and use them, or possibly create new ones.




> Naruto doesnt use FRS in KN0 , he cannot throw it either. FRS is more stable? Maybe you need to reread the parts of the manga where Naruto was training. His rasengans always have been unstable at the start... Hell he failed to pull of FRS vs Kakuzu.


Shitty pacing.
And it isn't the inherent difficulty alone, it is the reluctancy of the writer to advance naruto in a logical way.

Also, he hadn't completed FRS, so it's natural that he couldn't throw it. It is completely without seals, so it can only be shaped as far as one's current ability can allow.

It wasn't sage mode that allowed for him to use frs properly, but it did give him another option. He simply completed it in sage mode since it was his new weapon.



> Pain couldnt even bring down half the Kyuubi in 8 tailed mode. Furthermore Naruto is strong, even without using the Kyuubi.
> 
> On the whole madara thingie, Naruto doesnt stand a chance with or without the full support of the Kyuubi .


No... TENDOU pain couldn't bring him down, but as you may realize, tendou pain is only one part of six. All six could probably do it, if they were at full power. Bijuu Can be knocked out, so him using Chou shinra Tensei to do it is logical.

Then use preta to absorb all of the chakra that isn't the chakra meat.




Cyclonic said:


> *Sigh*
> 
> 
> Do people seriously still belive that ms sasuke would one shot  sm naruto?    The man that  went toe to toe with a rinneggan user a superior dojutsu?    Do people honestly think RM naruto will lose to sasuke  JUST   becuase of genjutsu?  When it's been stated  sasukes genjutsu is nothing special ?    Seriously I feel every time I come back here  the logic in some  of the posters regresses greatly.



You people? What do you mean you people. Logical ones?
MS genjutsu cannot be broken without outside intervention. Kyuubi cannot act alone anymore, so if naruto is in a genjutsu, he is done.

He also cannot escape Amaterasu. Because of that, he could die.
He may be able to overpower a partially activated susano'o, but full? fuck no.

Sasuke's genjutsu was said to be Phenomenal on several occasions.
By Sai, By Shi, by madara. Danzo talked shit but he could WARP REALITY WITH GENJUTSU.

Don't hate. 





Cyclonic said:


> *Does no one see how nerfed he is? Skillful use of the MS alone could destroy him.
> Hell, he may not need that. Chidori eisou, shunshin and the base sharingan could probably do it.*
> 
> 
> You sir are a fanboy.And I advise no one to read this  persons garbage logic for it might turn you into a complete retard.



I advise you to make some sense of your post.
Chidori eisou cut through a fully manifest Hachibi, what in the world makes you think naruto, who still suffers from joint damage in BN0, when he can heal a whole in the chest while in KN0, would be able to tank chidori eisou.

It is a chidori, and it extends about 30 feet at the speed of lightning. Are you kidding me? Why Wouldn't it beat naruto who can't even clone, or rely on kyuubi to give him moves that aren't completely readable?

If I am a fanboy, you are a cancerous troll. Making the library unreadable because of your ad hominems. Address the claim before the claimer.


----------



## Brickhunt (Mar 21, 2011)

Regardless of how strong Naruto is, I'm sure his final "power up" will be finally settling thing with Kyuubi and finally achieving the real power of a Jinchuuriki (Full Transformation, Genjutsu Immunity, Conserved Chakra exchange)

His current RM is honestly a very shitty form that is getting more credit than it deserves even after the flaws Hachibi already explained, it seems that just because it looks like Rikudou it means is already top tier.


----------



## seastone (Mar 21, 2011)

I am guessing that he will combine MS+RM to face Madara. If that makes him equal is unclear but it will give him a fighting chance. 



Brickhunt said:


> Regardless of how strong Naruto is, I'm sure his final "power up" will be finally settling thing with Kyuubi and finally achieving the real power of a Jinchuuriki (Full Transformation, Genjutsu Immunity, Conserved Chakra exchange)
> 
> His current RM is honestly a very shitty form that is getting more credit than it deserves even after the flaws Hachibi already explained, it seems that just because it looks like Rikudou it means is already top tier.



^Given that Naruto could break walls meant to contain Bijuus, has insane speed and now is creating a Bijuu bomb that he can use as his basic attack like his rasengan. 

All of those make it better then all of Naruto's previous jinchuuriki modes, most of all that he can Bijuu bombs without losing his mind.


----------



## Brickhunt (Mar 21, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> I am guessing that he will combine MS+RM to face Madara. If that makes him equal is unclear but it will give him a fighting chance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Breaking a wall doesn't mean he could break out, he can't control his insane speed (plus he doesn't have increased defense if he crashes at high spee dhe gets hurt) although tailed beast bomb is indeed good addition.

But you are ignoring the disvantages, Naruto can no longer use clones on his RM form and it's not about making Rasengans, Naruto's mastery over his Kage Bushin is what allowed to him pretty win much all fights on this manga and is one of his more versatile techniques, losing it is a big deal, he also can't turn in either Full Beast or V2 Mode.

And you're also forgetting what Hachibi said, when Naruto uses RM Kyuubi is there eating his original chakra source and if gets all Naruto dies, he already said that Naruto can't rely on RM or he will die, I'm sure that Tailed Beast Bomb is not a low chakra consume technique, so even if he masters he can't spam it like a basic attack.

The only way to overcome these flaws is negotiating chakra exchange with Kyuubi, so until he actually settle things with his beats Rikudou Mode is just another mode no better than Sage Mode (and in a personal opinion, Chakra Shroud is a far more badass form than this stupid light bulb form, if taming Kyuubi means Naruto finally getting rid of this goddamn appearance then I'm all for it)


----------



## Paranoid Android (Mar 21, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> Breaking a wall doesn't mean he could break out, he can't control his insane speed (plus he doesn't have increased defense if he crashes at high spee dhe gets hurt) although tailed beast bomb is indeed good addition.
> 
> But you are ignoring the disvantages, Naruto can no longer use clones on his RM form and it's not about making Rasengans, Naruto's mastery over his Kage Bushin is what allowed to him pretty win much all fights on this manga and is one of his more versatile techniques, losing it is a big deal, he also can't turn in either Full Beast or V2 Mode.
> 
> ...



dude, this doesn't matter. naruto is not going to die from said aftereffects of RM much like how he didn't turn to stone when he trained for sage mode or sasuke didn't go completely blind after spamming ms jutsu for a year and a half. kishi only put that in there to make us go like "ok maybe it's not so overpowered", but it doesn't do anything.


----------



## Brickhunt (Mar 21, 2011)

Paranoid Android said:


> dude, this doesn't matter. naruto is not going to die from said aftereffects of RM much like how he didn't turn to stone when he trained for sage mode or sasuke didn't go completely blind after spamming ms jutsu for a year and a half. kishi only put that in there to make us go like "ok maybe it's not so overpowered", but it doesn't do anything.


The very fact he's not allowed to use Kage Bushin means that this time it actually does something.


----------



## seastone (Mar 21, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> Breaking a wall doesn't mean he could break out, he can't control his insane speed (plus he doesn't have increased defense if he crashes at high spee dhe gets hurt) although tailed beast bomb is indeed good addition.
> 
> But you are ignoring the disvantages, Naruto can no longer use clones on his RM form and it's not about making Rasengans, Naruto's mastery over his Kage Bushin is what allowed to him pretty win much all fights on this manga and is one of his more versatile techniques, losing it is a big deal, he also can't turn in either Full Beast or V2 Mode.
> 
> ...



Yes, he could break out given enough time. More so if he learns how to control his speed and strength. The main flaw of this mode is poor control. Meaning that Naruto puts too much strength and speed without meaning too. 

Also you discount the disadvantages of Naruto's previous jinchuuriki forms. Most of how how they damage him as well even with only one tail as shown in the VOTE. 

In both jinchuuriki forms Naruto cannot afford to fight for long. At the very least with the current one doesn't cause his arm to go numb mid-battle. 

Also given that the Bijuu bomb is described as Rasengan and Naruto has been training with it non-stop. I do not think it is any more a chakra consuming jutsu then normal Rasengan. If it was a massive chakra consuming jutsu, he would have to take breaks after each try considering that low chakra means that Kyuubi will kill him. 

Overall RM mode is better then his previous jinchuuriki modes, the biggest factor that it doesn't damage him anymore. 

Though I do agree for maximum potential, he needs to settle things with the Kyuubi. 


On a peronal note, I like Narutos RM mode among the shroud. Persoanlly I found Naruto's KN like KN3 to be pretty silly most of all his eyes and whiskers. 

IMO best jinchuuki mode is without shroud and only the eyes and canines.



Brickhunt said:


> The very fact he's not allowed to use Kage Bushin means that this time it actually does something.



Naruto never used KB in his shroud modes in the past, IMO that is just an excuse Kishi came up to make Naruto more balanced.

Better then in the past where he gains tail but never uses KB, I mean a dozen KN3 would be very devastating for example. Probably would have ripped Orochimaru to shreds.


----------



## Kdol (Mar 21, 2011)

Weak and Blinded MS Sauce>>> RM Naruto

CANON.....

/thread


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 21, 2011)

Kdol said:


> Weak and Blinded MS Sauce>>> RM Naruto
> 
> CANON.....
> 
> /thread



Canon my ass  *RM* *Naru* never stated to be weaker than MS Sascake blind or not 

And anyway:




> *
> he couldn't use the MS
> he couldn't use the MS
> 
> ...







> "Why didn't you finish Sascake right there and then?"
> 
> 
> Naruto: "I knew i couldn't defeat Sascake at his current level"
> ...



*
WHAT IS CANON IS THAT NARU DIDN'T WANT SASCAKE DEAD!WHAT IS CANON IS THAT NARU SPARED SACAKE'S SORRY ASS AGAIN!*




> You people? What do you mean you people. Logical ones?



:rofl



> MS genjutsu cannot be broken without outside intervention. Kyuubi cannot act alone anymore, so if naruto is in a genjutsu, he is done.



So what?Sascake can't survive Rasen Shuriken or Naru's version of Kamehameha  Does that mean Naru oneshots?

Naru tanks Sascake's genjutsu with numbers or will power (Naru has more will now then when he tried against Itachi.And Sascake is no Itachi anyway when it comes to genjutsu.)



> Sasuke's genjutsu was said to be Phenomenal on several occasions.
> By Sai, By Shi, by madara.



ORLY?When?



> He also cannot escape Amaterasu. Because of that, he could die.




In what manga?Naru laughs Amaterasu off with his speed.



> He may be able to overpower a partially activated susano'o, but full? fuck no.



Naru's Kamehameha says hi and so long to Susano


----------



## Face (Mar 21, 2011)

Kdol said:


> Weak and Blinded RM Naruto >>> EMS Sauce
> 
> CANON.....
> 
> /thread



fixed


----------



## uchia2000 (Mar 21, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Kamui = One shot



Yet he never uses it to one shot someone. Hypothetically he could one shot pretty much anyone except Madara with Kamui but it never works out that way. He tends to wait before he uses Kamui. That's what happened with all of his previous fights and there was no indication that this would be any different.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

Anyone who takes Naruto's words seriously when he said that he wasn't a match for half-blind Sasuke is a Sasuke fanboy or just willfully blind. Naruto hadn't yet seen Sasuke in action.

He hadn't seen Amaterasu (except Itachi's), Kagatsuchi, Susano'o, Kirin (only the build-up) and whatever else Sasuke has. All he saw was Sasuke swinning a kunai.

That was just Naruto overestimating Sasuke and hyping him because that's what Naruto does. He underestimates himself and overestimates others all the time for absolutely no reason.

Naruto isn't psychic. What he said isn't canon confirmation of anything. It's what he *assumed*,


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> I disagree.
> 
> It doesn't matter if Naru knew about Amaterasu, Susano etc etc Sascake can't use them in his condition anyway.
> 
> And what Naru said had nothing to do with assuming shit.It was just a pathetic attempt to excuse himself.Cause he couldn't just tell the true could he?That *he did not want* Sascake dead!


So you're disagreeing with... nothingt?

What Naruto said were just empty words. They prove nothing about how strong they are.


----------



## Judecious (Mar 21, 2011)

PikaCheeka said:


> Why do people want a final battle where the hero has an advantage?



I see Sasuke taking Madara out just like he did Orochimaru.

so Sasuke=FV


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 21, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> So you're disagreeing with... nothingt?



I disagree with you thinking that Naru actually believed the crap that came out of his mouth.



> Naruto isn't psychic. What he said isn't canon confirmation of anything. It's what he assumed,



He wasn't assuming anything, he was just trying to fool Neji and co.

And i also disagreed with you using the fact that Naru didn't know about Amaterasu and Susano as a reason.

Doesn't matter if he knew about them or not.If Naru could really sense Sascake's power he would know how weak Sascake was at that moment.


----------



## supersaiyan146 (Mar 21, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> What Naruto said were just empty words. They prove nothing about how strong they are.



Kishi gave Naruto psychic powers


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 21, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> I disagree with you thinking that Naru actually believed the crap that came out of his mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You sure you understood what the guy was saying? lol...


----------



## Spanktastik (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Ems is worse than ms? Are you trolling me?.
> 
> And sure, since the V2 forms are a bit more powerful, yes he would be stronger, but sasuke has better eyes now. FAR better.
> 
> ...



I suspect you of trolling me, his new mode being weaker as KN0 . 

Seriously Sasuke is in the process of gaining new powers and same goes for Naruto, difference is we were shown Naruto's training while Sasuke is sitting at his a$$ and gains free jutsu. If you think about it, Sasuke cannot use any sharingan jutsus at all ATM, yet its no problem. Naruto simply learns his abilities like any other ninja, with falling down and standing up. But somehow that makes Naruto weak?

He just sucks at controlling Kyuubi mode at the moment:

-Snapping his ankle
-Crushing those stones by lack of control
- Cant use his Rasengan properly yet

His Bijuu dama not being stable is just proof that he still didnt finish the training. His rasengan wasnt stable before, same for FRS. But if you want to say BIjuu dama sucks and will stay unstable , believe what you want I wont waste words on it.  

His Bijuu-dama is a signature jutsu. Dont see the problem there, and forgive me if im wrong but I categorize you as a Sasuke fan that either loves to bash Naruto or is simply a pessimist. You are probably one of those people whining in the past that he only has 2 signature jutsu's. And that clones get old boring w/e, well you got what you wished for. I am truely dissapointed he lost them, then again I estimated clones at good value and didnt complaint about his smaller arsenal. 

I am not feeling like going over it argument by argument ( you guys excell at taking stuff out of context) , takes way to much time and your only goal is to make Naruto look weak. While the manga clearly indicates an equilibrium.

But youre right, Naruto will be one shot by a genjutsu and cannot hold a candle to god Sasuke, he is really inferior to him. His new mode is cant hold a candle to KN0 speed and brings no advantages.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Mar 21, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> You sure you understood what the guy was saying? lol...



Well we are both essentially saying the same thing: "Naru's words hold no water."

For different reasons however:

He's saying that Naru *was just assuming* that he can't take out Sascake at his current level..


and im saying that Naru was simply lying his ass off  I'm saying that Naru didn't really believe that he can't take Sascake out but simply didn't frigging *want to* take him out


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 21, 2011)

narutotantaratard said:


> Well we are both essentially saying the same thing: "Naru's words hold no water."
> 
> For different reasons however:
> 
> ...



Oh I see, I see


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 21, 2011)

*You people? What do you mean you people. Logical ones?*

There is nothing logical about  thinking shushin and base sharingan would defeat RM  naruto.

*MS genjutsu cannot be broken without outside intervention. *


Itachi's?     Yeah  perhaps since he was the greatest  genjutsu master the maga has ever seen period.  But sasuke?  Not a chance in hell is his genjutsu THAT powerful it's not even close to such a level that itachi's was. So stop acting like it.


*He also cannot escape Amaterasu. Because of that, he could die.*


How do you know he cant?    people thought garra would have no chance against such a jutsu  and he twarted it easily.     Amaterasu is not the jutsu  it was when it was first introduced. dont be shocked when if naruto just clone logs it.....like he does everything else.



Dude.... you just said  sasuke with base sharingan ,shushin and chidori could defeat   RM naruto..... you are the definition  of a fanboy.



I have nothing against ethier charecter ethier way  Im not the biggest sasuke fan in the world in fact I dislike him but it's not like naruto  is miles better in my book,    clearly   you lack the abillity   to look at this objectively  or fairly   when you spout nonsense about  base  sharingan people defeating current naruto.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Spanktastik said:


> I suspect you of trolling me, his new mode being weaker as KN0 .


He can't use any of his old techniques, and is failing at the bijuu rasengan right now.

Meanwhile, KN1 naruto already made a bijuu rasengan during the valley of the end, and did it like nothing. 


It isn't exactly a new jutsu. Naruto just had to relearn it since it came naturally in KN1.




> Seriously Sasuke is in the process of gaining new powers and same goes for Naruto, difference is we were shown Naruto's training while Sasuke is sitting at his a$$ and gains free jutsu. If you think about it, Sasuke cannot use any sharingan jutsus at all ATM, yet its no problem. Naruto simply learns his abilities like any other ninja, with falling down and standing up. But somehow that makes Naruto weak?



There lies the problem. You assume every ninja has this self abasing cycle of failing 100 times before they get the jutsu right. Well that is wrong. It seems like only naruto has that trouble.

Sure, it takes a lot of time when inventing new jutsu, but what you don't seem to get is that using hand-seals is what weaves the chakra correctly.
All a ninja needs to do to get ninpou right is perform the hand seals and have enough chakra. Thats it.
Set it and forget it. However, naruto sucks as handseals because he is too ditzy to study and remember them, AND he has 100 diffferent reasons why his chakra control sucks, so he doesn't have many jutsu at all.

If that wasn't enough nerfage: 

he can't use rasengan with one hand naturally.
he isn't really familiar with frog-style ninpou.
he can't use the amphibian sage technique.
he molds chakra horribly.
he can't get along with kyuubi.
he doesn't know how to balance the levels of yin or yang. 
he has learning disabilities, 

That is WAY too many handicaps for anyone.





> He just sucks at controlling Kyuubi mode at the moment:
> 
> -Snapping his ankle
> -Crushing those stones by lack of control
> ...



See, there is another problem.
He doesn't suck because it's hard. It's hard because he sucks. Bee blazed through all of his training at a very young age. He was like... ten when he started all of it.
Sure, naruto didn't know the proper way of controling bijuu for years, but it isn't something that takes years. It takes a couple of weeks.





> His Bijuu-dama is a signature jutsu. Dont see the problem there, and forgive me if im wrong but I categorize you as a Sasuke fan that either loves to bash Naruto or is simply a pessimist. You are probably one of those people whining in the past that he only has 2 signature jutsu's. And that clones get old boring w/e, well you got what you wished for. I am truely dissapointed he lost them, then again I estimated clones at good value and didnt complaint about his smaller arsenal.



Its not that I love to bash naruto. He is my second favorite character, It's just that I am not blind to his OBVIOUS faults, and my favoritism does not cure the fact that his fighting style is lackluster, and he is CONSTANTLY given some sort of slight so that he is not as powerful as he would be if he was actually competent in performing the jutsu.

I just want to see him kick some ass, but I am not going to sit here and act like he is prepared to do so, when his power is incomplete. He didn't set out to use this "RM mode", which is actually just the 0 tailed version of the bijuu chakra mode, he set out to master the kyuubi, and THAT is what he needed to beat sasuke, not this transitionary mode.

It is like the incomplete sage mode. It is INCOMPLETE.



> I am not feeling like going over it argument by argument ( you guys excell at taking stuff out of context) , takes way to much time and your only goal is to make Naruto look weak. While the manga clearly indicates an equilibrium.
> 
> But youre right, Naruto will be one shot by a genjutsu and cannot hold a candle to god Sasuke, he is really inferior to him. His new mode is cant hold a candle to KN0 speed and brings no advantages.



While sasuke is not a god, the rest is pretty much my argument.
Everyone is going crazy over naruto's shiny, bright new form without seeing the inherent flaws in it. 

He can't actually use it that much since it eats his chakra.
He can't properly use Kage Bunshin or rasengan.
He can't actually use the complete manifestation of kyuubi since it doesn't like him.
He hasn't shown the ability to use The tailed aura mode either.

He can't use ANY of the Jinchuuriki tricks/hacks that BEE has, despite setting the goal of being his disciple.

Sage mode is better by far right now. By FAR.
wake up.


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 21, 2011)

*Everyone is going crazy over naruto's shiny, bright new form  *


Jealousy is a secondary emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety


*Sage mode is better by far right now. By FAR.
wake up.*


right the mode that last 5 minutes , has inferior sensing abillities , less chakra, less destructive power,  needs you to stand still,  and is pretty much a less powerful version of this mode  is FAR  better.lol


----------



## Enclave (Mar 21, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> "That Jutsu," you say? Well, I'll give you the special pleasure of telling you that this supposedly mysterious technique is nothing more than...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Except it cannot be KN4.  For one thing Naruto knew what Jiraiya was talking about when Jiraiya said to not use "that jutsu" and yet Naruto had no clue about KN4.

Additionally, Jiraiya once again mentions "that jutsu" later on and implied that it was related to Naruto mastering the Kyuubi.  So while it's related to controlling the fox it's not specifically controlling the fox.  It's probably a jutsu that requires Naruto to have control of the Kyuubis chakra.


----------



## Milliardo (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> Jealousy is a secondary emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety


 why because someone is talking about naruto?







Cyclonic said:


> right the mode that last 5 minutes , has inferior sensing abillities ,* less chakra*, less destructive power,  needs you to stand still,  and is pretty much a less powerful version of this mode  is FAR  better.lol



how does it have less chakra?

 in some ways it does have an advantage but yea it will be inferior to rm..


----------



## seastone (Mar 21, 2011)

RM is better then SM in terms on how quickly Naruto can enter it. 

More so his body is enhanced with Bijuu chakra without it hurting him as well gaining extra chakra claws. Once he mastered Bijuu dama, he will have the most powerful attack available to a jinchuuriki. 

SM would be best once RM Naruto's chakra is low, just run quickly from the battlefield. Undo RM and meditate for a few secs for SM. In that way they compliment each other.


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 21, 2011)

*why because someone is talking about naruto?*

no becuase he's saying shit like sasuke with base sharingan with  regular shunsin would defeat rm naruto?

*how does it have less chakra?*



nintails chakra is bigger than  naruto's.  Sm juswt makes the chakra stronger  not more of it.



MaskedMenace said:


> RM is better then SM in terms on how quickly Naruto can enter it.
> 
> More so his body is enhanced with Bijuu chakra without it hurting him as well gaining extra chakra claws. Once he mastered Bijuu dama, he will have the most powerful attack available to a jinchuuriki.
> 
> SM would be best once RM Naruto's chakra is low, just run quickly from the battlefield. Undo RM and meditate for a few secs for SM. In that way they compliment each other.



imo he's just gonna combine them to cover the waknesses of both


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 21, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> SM would be best once RM Naruto's chakra is low, just run quickly from the battlefield. Undo RM and meditate for a few secs for SM. In that way they compliment each other.



This is what I am afraid of, and why I said it would be very generous to say EMS Sasuke is on par with RM Naruto. Naruto's power ups simply seem to be more powerful. Controlling a powerhouse like the Kyuubi, after already gaining the ability to fight against Pain, and live? Far too much power.


----------



## seastone (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> imo he's just gonna combine them to cover the waknesses of both



I think that too but honestly I think using them separately might be what Naruto does first. Like how Naruto recovered from the damage of KN8 via Senjutsu. 



Puppetry said:


> This is what I am afraid of, and why I said it would be very generous to say EMS Sasuke is on par with RM Naruto. Naruto's power ups simply seem to be more powerful. Controlling a powerhouse like the Kyuubi, after already gaining the ability to fight against Pain, and live? Far too much power.



Assuming that EMS is not enough, there is always the option that Sasuke gets hooked to Gedo Mazo and is able to enhance his EMS jutsu to an insane level.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 21, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Assuming that EMS is not enough, there is always the option that Sasuke gets hooked to Gedo Mazo and is able to enhance his EMS jutsu to an insane level.



Ah yes. All is right with Sasuke/Naruto power levels in comparison to one another.


----------



## Ezekial (Mar 21, 2011)

SM Naruto = MS Sasuke.
RM Naruto < EMS Sasuke.


----------



## Judecious (Mar 21, 2011)

SuperEzekial19 said:


> SM Naruto = MS Sasuke.
> *RM Naruto < EMS Sasuke*.



Yes because this will happen in their final fight

talk about being in denial

they will be equal.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> *You people? What do you mean you people. Logical ones?*
> 
> There is nothing logical about  thinking shushin and base sharingan would defeat RM  naruto.


Let's see... 
The sharingan can track movement at even rock lee's speeds at the 5th gate.
and tracked KN0 naruto's speed.


He can also track and react to Killer Bee in three tails

Who then continued to do this



His shunshin is rediculous. And naruto cannot react to it.

Hell most cannot.


He started back near suigetsu and karin, and in one step, cut the guy four times. 


BN0 Naruto is pretty fast and all, but even yondaime, whom was not using any chakra amplifications is faster. Why? Because Shunshin mastery is something you can become great at even without a bijuu. Also, not that it's speed was commented on by people who know that he does NOT normally use shunshin in combat, since it is very hard to maintain awareness.








So, lets see who commented on his speed.

Yamato, who got his ass handed to him by sasuke, and couldn't react at all.

Killer bee, who is actually quite speedy, but WAY faster than naruto, even then. Naruto broke a wall, Killer bee broke a MOUNTAIN. And didn't hurt himself at all.

And Kisame, who said he had no idea that naruto was that fast (seeing that they have intel on him), not that it was the fastest thing he had ever experienced. It wasn't even the farthest shunshin we have ever seen. and he was chasing a cockroach.






> Itachi's?     Yeah  perhaps since he was the greatest  genjutsu master the maga has ever seen period.  But sasuke?  Not a chance in hell is his genjutsu THAT powerful it's not even close to such a level that itachi's was. So stop acting like it


.
Who said it was at itachi's level? Not a soul.

The fact is, All Mangekyou Genjutsu cannot be broken by will alone. One must be broken out of it. They are unresistable, which is why they are so potent against bijuu. Even the normal sharingan can win against the kyuubi, but nothing can beat a mangekyou genjutsu on it's own, less it has a sharingan or a partner.

That is manga fact, without itachi's own record.
Also, Sharingan genjutsu are powerful, period.
Look at what it did to Shii and Sai. Damn near put them out of commission. And kakashi is another good example. He has the same level of genjutsu aptitude as sasuke, and has done some wonders.


It isn't the user alone, but the tools they have. Sharingan genjutsu are the best. Period. 



> *He also cannot escape Amaterasu. Because of that, he could die.*
> 
> 
> How do you know he cant?    people thought garra would have no chance against such a jutsu  and he twarted it easily.     Amaterasu is not the jutsu  it was when it was first introduced. dont be shocked when if naruto just clone logs it.....like he does everything else.



No, Readers thought gaara had no chance.
The characters in the manga didn't. His zettai bougyou and powers are still fully active, thus his suna no tessen is still active, and still has precognative abilities to react to danger. 

Also, Sasuke was not using amaterasu, but Enton. The enton chakra was already there, he just moved it.







> *If I am a fanboy, you are a cancerous troll. *
> Dude.... you just said  sasuke with base sharingan ,shushin and chidori could defeat   RM naruto..... you are the definition  of a fanboy.


And I just proved it up there.
Naruto's Bijuu Aura mode does not give him a protective cloak, it just trades his chakra for kyuubi's, thus his defense is as normal.

His speed is admirable, but not the fastest we have seen, as A had reaction speeds that were as fast as yondaime's, a shunshin mastery, AND as much chakra as a jinchuuriki. Naruto lacks two out of three of those, and sasuke fought him into a corner.




> I have nothing against ethier charecter ethier way  Im not the biggest sasuke fan in the world in fact I dislike him but it's not like naruto  is miles better in my book,    clearly   you lack the abillity   to look at this objectively  or fairly   when you spout nonsense about  base  sharingan people defeating current naruto.
> 
> 
> seriously  your   logic is just retarded.


I say otherwise. Both are my favorites, but you say naruto is miles better, even though naruto himself says otherwise. He has not completed his objective in fully mastering the kyuubi, which was his requirement for beating sasuke. He isn't even close to full mastery, so to say he has surpassed sasuke who is sitting on a new tier of power right now, is ludicrous. 

When naruto is finished, he still has to contend with sasuke, who has powers he is unaware of. As far as naruto knows, sasuke has 

-shunshin
-Chidori/Nagashi
-Katon
-Curse seal

He is LARGELY unaware of sasuke's arsenal, just as sasuke is unaware of his.

He doesn't even know about sasuke's mangekyou. He barely knows about mangekyou as is. Everyone has been informed on itachi's abilities, due to the bingo books, but sasuke's are different.


Now sasuke has unlimited use of his Mangekyou Douryouku, AND a new unrevealed doujutsu.




Cyclonic said:


> *Everyone is going crazy over naruto's shiny, bright new form  *
> 
> 
> Jealousy is a secondary emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear, and anxiety


Trust me, there is no jealousy.
His Kyuubi tailed modes looked better.
This one is too... wispy for my tastes.

I like concentrated power. Sage mode is Bad ass.

Another example, I like the perfected super saiyan,
 rather than the original form with the energy pouring out. It's wasteful.



> *Sage mode is better by far right now. By FAR.
> wake up.*
> 
> 
> right the mode that last 5 minutes , has inferior sensing abillities , less chakra, less destructive power,  needs you to stand still,  and is pretty much a less powerful version of this mode  is FAR  better.lol



It lasts five minutes, but it won't kill him.
It does not inferior sensing abilities. It merely cannot sense emotions, something kyuubi alone has the ability to do. In fact that ability is what drew him to places where malice began to swell.

It does have less chakra, but it's more potent, and naruto can... USE JUTSU.
And It does not have less destructive power. Naruto broke a wall in his Bijuu aura mode. Naruto Tossed a giant rhino in Sage mode.

And yes, it requires like... 10 seconds of meditation. Fine if you find a nice hiding place.

You can't re-mold sage chakra in battle, but five minutes is a LONG time for a solo fight.
If it isn't over before then, someone is screwing up.


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 21, 2011)

*I think that too but honestly I think using them separately might be what Naruto does first. Like how Naruto recovered from the damage of KN8 via Senjutsu. *

yeah I think so as well.



*RM Naruto < EMS Sasuke*


how?  we dont even know what ems does yet.  and evidence suggest it's just no blindness plus One new jutsu.



*Let's see... *



Lets not see.  The fact that you even tried to defend such a ridicoulous  notion is futher proof that  you are a fanboy.  I'm  not gonna waste my time explaining why   naruto with his final power up for the manga would not lose to sasuke at the begginning of part 2


*The characters in the manga didn't. *


and charecters in the manga think naruto has no chance?   bee fought sasuke and saw  am yet he's teaching naruto this power  you think he would do that if it couldnt handle am?  a jutsu AK ususe who naruto might have to fight at some point?    Come on dont be stupid.


*Also, Sasuke was not using amaterasu*


not like it matters.  block  the ms users vision and you block  Am. not that hard.


*And I just proved it up there.*


no you didnt.  You speculated , took manga refrences out of context and made of a situation  where the person you wanted would win. I can do the same thing with any charecter and any set of abillities.



*but you say naruto is miles better, *


typo  thats souposed to be  isnt *

Oh and I  dont think he's unaware that sasuke has ms if kks knows chances are they told  him.  But it doesnt matter anyway. naruto has knowledge of sharingan even at ms level.   Sasuke has knowledge of  kyubi but not this type of kyubi power or sage mode.


*Naruto lacks two out of three of those, and sasuke fought him into a corner.*


when did he fight him into a corner?    and how do you know how fast  naruto is?   he was jokingly compared to the flash.  and he's so fast that he has problems controlling it. it sounds fast enough to dodge AM to me.  But regardless am will never defeat   naruto it's not gonna happen

*It lasts five minutes, but it won't kill him.*


turning him into stone isnt killing him?



*Trust me, there is no jealousy.*

right..... right.  riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighhhhht.

ANYWAY. you are right about one thing rm does look fucking retarded.


*It does not inferior sensing abilities.*

yes it does.   Rm mode could sense muu sage mode couldnt.


*It does have less chakra, but it's more potent, and naruto can... USE JUTSU.*

where does it say he cant use jutsu?   he cant use kb.


* It does not have less destructive power. Naruto broke a wall in his Bijuu aura mode. Naruto Tossed a giant rhino in Sage mode.*

that compared to what the bijju ball does?   really


yeah I'm not seeing how sage mode is better.   Rm takes sm and does evething it does better  plus more not seeing how sm  isnt just a less powerful version of  RM.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2011)

Lol, SM Naruto > MS Sasuke

RM >>>>> MS Sasuke


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Mar 21, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Except it cannot be KN4.  For one thing Naruto knew what Jiraiya was talking about when Jiraiya said to not use "that jutsu" and yet Naruto had no clue about KN4.
> 
> Additionally, Jiraiya once again mentions "that jutsu" later on and implied that it was related to Naruto mastering the Kyuubi.  So while it's related to controlling the fox it's not specifically controlling the fox.  It's probably a jutsu that requires Naruto to have control of the Kyuubis chakra.



Just like Naruto had no clue that he slapped Sakura around some in KN4, am I right?  When you transform (whether partially or completely) into the Nine-Tailed Fox, you lose total consciousness. You don't remember anything that occurs during that duration of transfiguration. 

Which is why Jiraiya vividly recalls almost being killed by Naruto during the three-year time skip, yet Naruto does not. Being that the form shortens Naruto's lifespan and is incredibly dangerous to the people around him, that becomes the reason why Jiraiya told Naruto not to use "that jutsu;" the very thing he almost lost his life to - KN4. Yamato makes a similar statement, that Naruto should rely on his own power and not the fox's.

All the hype around the words "that jutsu" was created by the fans. Kishimoto has given no indication that such a technique will be used to vanquish Madara in the end, nor has he hinted at the fact that Minato was even aware of its existence. If you've noticed, "that jutsu" is just Jiraiya's description; Minato and Kushina have never used these deceptively ominous words. Not once. Why is this so?


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 21, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> Lol, *SM Naruto > MS Sasuke*
> RM >>>>> MS Sasuke
> 
> Hop off the Sasuke cock.



thats wrong too they were equal.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Do you want me to teach you how to quote properly Cyclonic?
It is hard replying to you with the bold text, since it doesn't show who you are addressing.




Cyclonic said:


> *RM Naruto < EMS Sasuke*
> 
> 
> how?  we dont even know what ems does yet.  and evidence suggest it's just no blindness plus One new jutsu.



That is enough. Forget about the one new jutsu for a second.
This means sasuke won't squint in pain every time he uses MS, he won't go blind, so his reaction time is greater as well, and the biggest boon...

He can experiment with his douryouku. There is obviously a lot of power in having the ability to train your MS. Training alone is what created the difference in itachi and sasuke's abilities with the MS.

Sasuke trained for minimalism, so he was able to use a smaller version of Susano'o, use enton, and do interesting tricks with it. Now that his eyes won't blind he can experiment with his mangekyou, which has always shown good benefits.




> *Let's see... *
> 
> *Lets not see.  The fact that you even tried to defend such a ridicoulous  notion is futher proof that  you are a fanboy.  I'm  not gonna waste my time explaining why   naruto with his final power up for the manga would not lose to sasuke at the begginning of part 2*



Wait... who told you it was the final power up?
He is sixteen years old, the manga isn't even CLOSE to being done (kishi said so), Naruto isn't hokage, and Kishi's contract with Weekly Shonen Jump isn't close to being done either.

Waste your time, please, because it doesn't make sense.
If that were the final power up, he should just leave bee now.
Training over. nothing left to learn. Let's not even talk about how bee has not taught him one trick to using bijuu like he does.

Naruto is doing his own thing right now, and all bee has taught him was how to get to the place where he is doing his own thing.
They are teacher and student. Let Bee teach him before you jump the gun.

Bee tamed hachibi, so let him teach naruto to tame the kyuubi. They aren't even scratching the surface yet.


Also, you are following the trend that many people go down.
"The newest thing is the strongest thing."

Bullshit. You are powerscaling without warrant. We have seen the totality of RM, short of a bijuu dama rasengan that MIGHT be possible. If it is, it will inevitably be weaker than the one naruto used against orochimaru, due to the difference in chakra concentration.

Yes, it had great distructive power, but who is naruto going to fight???
Sasuke, who has susano'o, a douryouku that has an anti-magic shield.

Madara who has the ability to change the direction of things with the tendou path, absorb damn near anything with his kamui variant, phase through solid matter for five minutes straight, and can warp reality with Izanagi.

And naruto is going to win with brute force?
Horseshit.





> *The characters in the manga didn't. *
> 
> 
> and charecters in the manga think naruto has no chance?   bee fought sasuke and saw  am yet he's teaching naruto this power  you think he would do that if it couldnt handle am?  a jutsu AK ususe who naruto might have to fight at some point?    Come on dont be stupid.


Sure, you have a point there.
They all have faith in naruto, but it is out of the same ignorance of the facts.

Fandom creates ignorance inside and outside of the manga.

Also, Killer Bee is making due. He thought naruto would be able to use a full kyuubi manifestation from the start, but alas, he cannot, so he tries and teaches him the next best thing. Naruto is not succeeding in his training, he is failing at it, thus Bee is improvising.

They found out he could use rasengan, so bee said, try it out.
now they are trying to master that, but it is a tangent.

Naruto's next step SHOULD have been working on taming the kyuubi as fast as possible. yet they are grasping at straws, so he can use one jutsu.



> *Also, Sasuke was not using amaterasu*
> 
> 
> not like it matters.  block  the ms users vision and you block  Am. not that hard.



It matters a lot.
What is naruto going to block it with?
He can't use bunshin. He glows too much to use smoke bombs.
He can be tracked while using shunshin.

WHAT DOES HE HAVE. that is the point of it all. What does he have with this new mode, that surpasses everything else he had? the ability to sense evil? well all that is going to do is make him sick by learning how tainted sasuke has become.

A bijuu rasengan? It takes a while to make, and diverts ALL of naruto's focus to it. He can't just do it on the fly, it's heavy as hell, hurts, and requires four hands to perform.

And killer bee reacted to his speed, so it isn't exactly transcendent.






> *And I just proved it up there.*
> 
> 
> no you didnt.  You speculated , took manga refrences out of context and made of a situation  where the person you wanted would win. I can do the same thing with any charecter and any set of abillities.


Isn't that what the library is for?
Cross referencing the body of knowledge in NARUTO to come to a logical conclusion?

This whole site is out of context 



> *but you say naruto is miles better, *
> 
> 
> typo  thats souposed to be  isnt *
> ...


Naruto didn't ask, and kakashi didn't tell him.
sucks, but thems the breaks. He knows a little about the mangekyou due to Kabuto's bingo book, but even the jounin who studied it didn't know about Susano'o, showing that they have VERY small amounts of knowledge on it.

Kakashi, doesn't even have alot. That which he has, he has basically created on his own experimentation. Kamui was his own hypothesized jutsu.
So, he might know that amaterasu creates flame that is unextinguishable, and tsukuyomi makes you into a vegetable, but he doesn't and shouldn't know sasuke even has a mangekyou.




> *Naruto lacks two out of three of those, and sasuke fought him into a corner.*
> 
> 
> when did he fight him into a corner?    and how do you know how fast  naruto is?   he was jokingly compared to the flash.  and he's so fast that he has problems controlling it. it sounds fast enough to dodge AM to me.  But regardless am will never defeat   naruto it's not gonna happen



When he almost set him on fire again with Kagutsuchi.
One hand is enough loss, but if he burned his leg off, A is pretty much done.
Mobility goes right out the window.

Sure he would possibly have crushed sasuke's guts, but Karin was around the corner. And sasuke is used to taking chest explodingly hard shots.
Finally, he had the ability to use a 2/4 complete susano'o at any time. Raikage could have bounced right off, and sasuke could have toasted his leg.

Realize that sasuke was holding A LOT back too. showing your trump card too early is not really good.



Also, on the Joking comparison, That is complete crap.
Why joke? He was noted to have taken the offensive with shunshin, which is something to this day, only uchiha, Jinchuuriki, Raikage, and Yondaime have actually done.

Why? because as kakashi and yondaime have said, using shunshin in battle is REALLY DANGEROUS. You get tunnel vision. If you have ever passed out, you know how shitty tunnel vision is. You have absolutely no peripheral vision, and only what you focus on is seen.

Raiton no yoroi, sharingan, chakra shields, and inhuman reflexes help those greatly, but naruto doesn't have those in his bijuu aura mode, which makes it dangerous to use. Also, he doesn't have the chakra control to actually use shunshin well.

He CAN pour a large amount of bijuu chakra into his shunshin, but without the reflexes and chakra control, it is more dangerous to him than it is to anyone else.




> It lasts five minutes, but it won't kill him.
> 
> 
> turning him into stone isnt killing him?


He has MASTERED it, thus reduced the chance of it turning him to stone to 0.
So no. Sasuke also did something similar with the _ten no juin_, reducing the harmful effects by familiarity and skill with the power up.




> Trust me, there is no jealousy.
> 
> right..... right. riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiighhhhht.
> 
> ANYWAY. you are right about one thing rm does look fucking retarded.


One right would have been enough.
But I am not jealous. How could I be, naruto is my second favorite character.
If there is jealousy, it is at kishimoto.

He has the skills to draw naruto, but not the skill to write it well. 
If only I had his drawing skills 



> It does not inferior sensing abilities.
> 
> yes it does. Rm mode could sense muu sage mode couldnt.


What is MUU?
I know MU, In japanese is nothiningness, but I don't Know what muu is.
He did sense evil intent though, but he did NOT sense chakra better.
Everyone can sense chakra, but Sensor ninja make an art of it.

Naruto isn't there yet. and his bijuu aura mode does not amplify that skill, it gives him a new one.




> It does have less chakra, but it's more potent, and naruto can... USE JUTSU.
> 
> where does it say he cant use jutsu? he cant use kb.



sorry. HIS jutsu.
He can possibly summon as well, but he can summon in any mode.
The only reason he ISN'T using sage mode is because fukusaku warned him of the dangers of using it in combat, but his new mode is proving to be more unreliable.
The problem is he didn't know that. 

Naruto cannot use the totality of kyuubi's chakra since it will kill him.
He can't perform any jutsu except henge and kuchiyose as of now.
He can't use shunshin reliably.
He can't use his tailed modes without kyuubi.

He thought it would be as amazing as we did, but it ain't.

And The bijuu rasengan isn't exactly a game changer. FRS Is just as dangerous in it's own way.



> It does not have less destructive power. Naruto broke a wall in his Bijuu aura mode. Naruto Tossed a giant rhino in Sage mode.
> 
> that compared to what the bijju ball does? really


HE CAN'T USE IT.
Also, FRS chops mountains down. It is more or less equal in danger, and naruto can do two of those, back to back in sage mode, while having a shitload of sage bunshin everywhere for protection.

Also he can do this.





> yeah I'm not seeing how sage mode is better. Rm takes sm and does evething it does better plus more not seeing how sm isnt just a less powerful version of RM.


The only thing it has done in which Sage mode naruto hasn't is grow trees, feel moods, and shunshin.
It fails at all else.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> thats wrong too they were equal.


In your opinion, sure.

In mine, Naruto has a slight advantage.


----------



## Cyclonic (Mar 21, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> In your opinion, sure.
> 
> In mine, Naruto has a slight advantage.



naruto said they were eqaul.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> naruto said they were eqaul.


He was being modest.

Zetsu says Naruto is stronger.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 21, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> He was being modest.
> 
> Zetsu says Naruto is stronger.



Wasn't this statement made before the Kage Summit battles?


----------



## Louis-954 (Mar 21, 2011)

"That jutsu", Itachi's gift, Hirashin?


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Wasn't this statement made before the Kage Summit battles?


Which was before Naruto gained RM.

Naruto statement was complete bullshit. Naruto did not know the kunai was poisoned (unless he's psychic or Sakura completely fails at crafting poisons, crafting poisons which take quite a while to take effect but that is easily sensed) and Sasuke was clearly half-blind.

Naruto had no clue of Sasuke's current level. There was literally no way for him to know about Sasuke's Amaterasu, Kagatsuchi, Susano'o or Kirin. All he had to go on was hype (that Sasuke killed Orochimaru) and the skills Sasuke showed off in Part I. Yet he declared them both equal.

Yea, no, he was talking out of his ass.

Also, you all seem to be missing a vital piece of the puzzle: Naruto has regained his chakra arms. Arms which can move individually with zero physical input from Naruto (i.e. Naruto won't give away how they'll move through his own movements). *The Sharingan cannot anticipate the movements of pure chakra such as those of Naruto's chakra arms*, thus, Naruto has regained a natural counter to the Sharingan.

Naruto's increased speed also gives him a means to evade Amaterasu (A did it at near much point-blank range). With the Kyuubi's will sealed away, it is also possible that Naruto may be able to fuse with Ma and Pa, giving him a way to counter Sasuke's Genjutsu (this is, of course, speculation).

If Naruto can combined RM with SM, he'll retain heightened durability and Kawazu Kumite, rendering close-range combat in his favour. Sasuke's regular Katons aren't worth crap (they're regular Katons, after all) and his lightning is naturally weak against Naruto's wind.

Naruto, being a Chakra powerhouse and bushin feint expert, is also a master of the art of attrition. Sasuke cannot afford to turn a battle between the two of them into a war of attrition because of how Susano'o works. If Naruto can drag the battle on long enough (and if Sasuke has to resort to hiding behind Susano'o in order to not get made short work of), victory will be Naruto's (because Sasuke will run out of Chakra).

Naruto is currently training to become Sasuke's natural counter.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Wasn't this statement made before the Kage Summit battles?


Shush, don't think I'm aware?


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 21, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Which was before Naruto gained RM.
> 
> Naruto statement was complete bullshit. Naruto did not know the kunai was poisoned (unless he's psychic or Sakura completely fails at crafting poisons, crafting poisons which take quite a while to take effect but that is easily sensed) and Sasuke was clearly half-blind.
> 
> ...



I'm not disagreeing with this.  Wall of text proved/supposted somethig I agreed with. Except for the part where you seem to imply that RM is required to counter MS Sasuke, which is flatly untrue. 



Ƶ Kira said:


> Shush, don't think I'm aware?



Then why are you using that statement? It doesn't mean anything after those feats.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> I'm not disagreeing with this.  Wall of text proved/supposted somethig I agreed with. Except for the part where you seem to imply that RM is required to counter MS Sasuke, which is flatly untrue.


Uh, no. I never implied such a thing. If I did, it was not my intention.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> *Isn't that what the library is for?*
> 
> Fuck  No.   Thats what battle dome is for take that shit over there.  By the way   no offense but I'm not reading another long post and responding I have to get back to work.


The battledome is just an extention with formal rules to a hypothetical.

One can make a thread saying does naruto have what he needs to beat the uchiha clan in the library, and make a naruto vs the uchiha clan thread in the battledome. Two different things, same subject.

Also, Concession accepted.




Rosencrantz said:


> It has always confused me how many of these Naruto fans are just on about equality while many Sasuke fans seem to have to have their favorite character be stronger. It is actually funny. It may be due to actual personalities of the two characters with Naruto wanting to be looked on as Sasuke's equal while Sasuke refused to accept it and always tried to belittle Naruto and make himself seem far superior. Would that be irony?



Not up here.
Apparently RM naruto can destroy everyone.

Also, sasuke fans don't look for superiority. Sasuke provides that in spades.
However, he can't beat who he can't beat.

Everyone he has lost to, he couldn't beat. Could be beat them afterwards? yes, because he has a steady diagonal progression of power.
Naruto's is horizontal.

example?

Sasuke gets 1 jutsu added to his arsenal. That jutsu makes his whole style more complete.
Sasuke has chidori nagashi. He uses it with his melee attacks, chokuto attacks, long range attacks, and defense.
He does not need to change any dynamic in his style except chakra conservation.

Sasuke gets mangekyou. It gives him the ability to use MS douryouku.
It does not force change into his style of fighting, but gives him more options.
It gradually blinds him when douryouku are used, but that is an option in it's use.

That is diagonal gains. He gains more jutsu, and they in turn synchronize with the others to make everything better. One jutsu making all the rest even better. For example, Chidori. The mangekyou gives sasuke stronger sight, thus his ability to use chidori in a dangerous situation is increased, as well as his ability to see chakra, thus he can aim for more vital regions.
One makes the rest better.






Naruto gets one jutsu added to his arsenal. That jutsu may or may not be usable in certain citations, thus he must adapt his own style to use it.

Naruto gets sage mode.

He must prepare to use it more than once in battle with a great scroll, making him slower, and using more energy.
He can only use 2 clones while other clones are charging.
He cannot use amphibian sage fusion correctly.

Naruto gains Bijuu chakra mode..

It gives him access to raw amounts of kyuubi's chakra.
He cannot use it often since using it eats up his chakra.
It changes his style because Kage bunshin is now a lethal jutsu.
He cannot use rasengan due to bijuu chakra mixing it in a strange and unfamiliar way, and his inability to use kage bunshin.


Thus they are horizontal. His whole style does not grow when he gains powerups, or even jutsu, but he must adapt his form of fighting to accommodate the new change. While one MAY become better due to enhancements, all of them don't.

Sage mode is a diagonal jutsu that he has, but because of kyuubi, it becomes horizontal. 





Puppetry said:


> Wasn't this statement made before the Kage Summit battles?



Yep. He is way stronger at the time of fighting danzou as well.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Not up here.
> Apparently RM naruto can destroy everyone.
> 
> Also, sasuke fans don't look for superiority. Sasuke provides that in spades.
> ...



Case and point. Pretty much made up nonsense to make Naruto look inferior to Sasuke. You proved my point perfectly. The fact that you had to write an essay to do it just proves it further. You an avid Sasuke lover of course has to make him seem better and downgrade Naruto by using nonsense logic. Thanks again for jsut backing me up.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Then why are you using that statement? It doesn't mean anything after those feats.


I know, but it doesn't change my opinion, nonetheless.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> I know, but it doesn't change my opinion, nonetheless.


Respectfully, this is a debate (albeit one fueled largely by speculation). Opinions schmopinions. Debates need to be fuelded with evidence, facts and logic.

In debates, opinions need to be substantiated with evidence, facts and/or logic (speculation would fall under "logic").


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 21, 2011)

Vertical, Horizonal progression of power? Mangekyou Sharingan gives one stronger sight? Somehow fabricated directional based power scales determine Sasuke is superior to Naruto? See this is the problem that happens to every fandom whether it be Hyuuga, Jiraiya, Itachi, Naruto, or in this case Sasuke. People take their frustrations out on a character when the fandom proceeds to spread blatant fabrications (lies or bullshit if you will) to aid one's favorite character. It is not fair to the character in question (in this case Sasuke).


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 21, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Uh, no. I never implied such a thing. If I did, it was not my intention.



I got the impression because you were discussing RM Naruto, who is tiers above MS Sasuke. But that's my own misinterpretatoin, sorry. 



Ƶ Kira said:


> I know, but it doesn't change my opinion, nonetheless.



Okay..... But I believe that they are equals with MS Sasuke having a slight advantage. Though I would have to closely examine both of them to make a definitive statement.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> *Case and point. Pretty much made up nonsense to make Naruto look inferior to Sasuke. You proved my point perfectly. The fact that you had to write an essay to do it just proves it further. You an avid Sasuke lover of course has to make him seem better and downgrade Naruto by using nonsense logic. Thanks again for jsut backing me up.*
> 
> 
> This  hit the  nail on the head.


If *dark messiah verdandi* doesn't respond to my post on how Naruto's developing into a natural counter against Sasuke, more spefically the part about his chakra arms, that's pretty much a concession of the debate.

Let's give him or her 2 hours.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 21, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Respectfully, this is a debate (albeit one fueled largely by speculation). Opinions schmopinions. Debates need to be fuelded with evidence, facts and logic.
> 
> In debates, opinions need to be substantiated with evidence, facts and/or logic (speculation would fall under "logic").


Thank you for the input, but I already knew that, no need to tell me, anyway I wasn't going to continue in this thread anyway.



Cyclonic said:


> Dude what are fuckin  12  years old?  lmao   I could rip your shit  to shreds  if I felt like it.


One more thing, that's not how you should talk to people, it's very disrespectful, and just plain rude.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 21, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> If *dark messiah verdandi* doesn't respond to my post on how Naruto's developing into a natural counter against Sasuke, more spefically the part about his chakra arms, that's pretty much a concession of the debate.
> 
> Let's give him or her 2 hours.



Naruto always seemed like a natural counter.

Base mode: 

KBs to nullify sharingan prediction.
Skillful taijutsu (something that can help make up for sharingan prediction).\
Fuuton: Rasengan>Raitons
Fuuton: Rasenshuriken>Raitons
Rasengan>Katon (Rooftop Fight)
KBs to nullify sharingan genjutsu.
KBs to nullify Amaterasu.

Sage Mode:

Invisible attacks to counter sharingan.
Incredible strength making blocking difficult.
KBs to nullify amaterasu/sharingan genjutsu.
Fuuton: Rasenshuriken/Oodama Rasengans to break through Susano.
Raw Power to potentially deflect a Susano arrow. (Mokuton could divert the path).

Rikudou Mode:

Ridiculous speed.
Chakra claws to screw over prediction again.
Bjuu for potential genjutsu disruption.
Bjuu bomb for potential Susano destruction.

That's just me though. And I believe Naruto/Sasuke are equals and will probably be equals till the end of the manga until Naruto proves he is slightly superior or Sasuke dies.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> Case and point. Pretty much made up nonsense to make Naruto look inferior to Sasuke. You proved my point perfectly. The fact that you had to write an essay to do it just proves it further. You an avid Sasuke lover of course has to make him seem better and downgrade Naruto by using nonsense logic. Thanks again for jsut backing me up.



Yet you didn't actually refute what I said with a counter.
Stop hating on me for a second and see if what I posted had flaws.

It is true that when sasuke gains a jutsu, his whole style becomes better, and he doesn't have to adapt any of his jutsu to a new change. He can use anything he wants, and still use chidori, katons, shunshin, or anything he can use in base. that is a cold hard fact.


Naruto does not have the privelage.
Sage mode comes DAMN close, and with anyone else who would have mastery, would provide a purely diagonal jutsu, if not the paragon of diagonal jutsu. It's purpose is to make other jutsu better.

The problem is, kyuubi doesn't allow for it to be perfectly diagonal, since amphibian sage fusion cannot work. Because of that, it's limits are exaggerated. and it becomes harder to use practically.

The Bijuu aura mode is worse. It does give the user a boost in jutsu potency while it is on, but it also eats away at naruto's unmolded chakra, and does NOT recover him afterwards, since kyuubi is still malicious and eats his chakra inside of the seal.

Another problem is kyuubi cannot heal naruto with his chakra overnight anymore, since his chakra is outside of the shishou seals, which mixed naruto's chakra with kyuubi's. It doesn't mix anymore, but is exchanged, so until he recombines the taimed will with the chakra, using The bijuu aura mode makes him rely on normal uzumaki stamina to recover.






Cyclonic said:


> *Also, Concession accepted.*
> 
> 
> Dude what are fuckin  12  years old?  lmao   I could rip your shit  to shreds  if I felt like it.  Your argument about  about  sharingan base and shunshin beating rm naruto and sage mode being >>>>>>>>>>>> RM  are so flawed it's not even funny.   like seriously I dont even take you seriously anymore after statements like that.


well do it.



> *Two different things, same subject.*
> 
> 
> same subject but  one is in the context of the story while the other lets imagination  run while which is what your doing.


that is why I said "two different things" 




> *Case and point. Pretty much made up nonsense to make Naruto look inferior to Sasuke. You proved my point perfectly. The fact that you had to write an essay to do it just proves it further. You an avid Sasuke lover of course has to make him seem better and downgrade Naruto by using nonsense logic. Thanks again for jsut backing me up.*
> 
> 
> This  hit the  nail on the head.


He didn't refute my case at all, he basically called me a "sasukesexual", a dufus, and said because I was, his point was proven, without actually responding to what I said with a counter.

There was no, "that is not valid because...", It was more like "sftu you homo"
do you understand why that cannot win an arguement? there was no rhetoric, just an ad homenim. 






sanji's left eye said:


> Vertical, Horizonal progression of power? Mangekyou Sharingan gives one stronger sight? Somehow fabricated directional based power scales determine Sasuke is superior to Naruto? See this is the problem that happens to every fandom whether it be Hyuuga, Jiraiya, Itachi, Naruto, or in this case Sasuke. People take their frustrations out on a character when the fandom proceeds to spread blatant fabrications (lies or bullshit if you will) to aid one's favorite character. It is not fair to the character in question (in this case Sasuke).


Lies you say?


Now, what douryouku did he turn on one Eye for?
None, So he obviously turned it on because he needed to increase his visual capacity, IE, his ability to see details and chakra.

This page shows that there is a benefit from using the mangekyou over the regular sharingan for the observational prowress. Why? because it uses more chakra than a regular sharingan, thus is more potent.

It has been proven time and time again that the mangekyou was more potent.
It's genjutsu is more potent, It has more potent Douryouku, and it's observational eye is more potent.

The problem is when you turn it off after using Douryouku. It VERY slowly makes the sight worse, but the douryouku absolutely ruin the eyes.
Turning it on for the observational boost doesn't really hurt much at all, but it does use more chakra than a normal sharingan.

Using it for douryouku causes the eyes to bleed, the pupils to contract rapidly, and leads to total pupil degeneration.



FallenAngelII said:


> If *dark messiah verdandi* doesn't respond to my post on how Naruto's developing into a natural counter against Sasuke, more spefically the part about his chakra arms, that's pretty much a concession of the debate.
> 
> Let's give him or her 2 hours.


One second. -writing right now-


----------



## posternojutsu (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Yet you didn't actually refute what I said with a counter.
> Stop hating on me for a second and see if what I posted had flaws.
> 
> *It is true that when sasuke gains a jutsu, his whole style becomes better, and he doesn't have to adapt any of his jutsu to a new change. He can use anything he wants, and still use chidori, katons, shunshin, or anything he can use in base. that is a cold hard fact.*
> ...



How has anything, but the lack of control of his Bijuu made Naruto have to "alter" his base style. Naruto basically has fought the sameway he always has....just with bigger Rasengans or stat boosting techs like SM. Now that he has RM all these problems you list with using Kyuubi chakra are gone. So where is the difference between Sasuke and Naruto? Both improve overall everytime they gain something...the only difference has always been that Sasuke is more of a technical fighter and Naruto is more like a brawler.


----------



## 24 Hours (Mar 21, 2011)

Black Phoenix said:


> i think MS Sasuke will one shot SM Naruto
> (Tsukiyomi ,Susanoo arrow  Amateratsu, Kagutsuchi)



FRS solos Sasuke though


----------



## Hiroshi (Mar 21, 2011)

Please keep on topic, and report users if they're being rude. Thank you.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Yet you didn't actually refute what I said with a counter.
> Stop hating on me for a second and see if what I posted had flaws.
> 
> It is true that when sasuke gains a jutsu, his whole style becomes better, and he doesn't have to adapt any of his jutsu to a new change. He can use anything he wants, and still use chidori, katons, shunshin, or anything he can use in base. that is a cold hard fact.


There is nothing to hate on you for. Please do not poorly attempt to make yourself look superior. Thanks.

Right, Right.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Naruto does not have the privelage.
> Sage mode comes DAMN close, and with anyone else who would have mastery, would provide a purely diagonal jutsu, if not the paragon of diagonal jutsu. It's purpose is to make other jutsu better.
> 
> The problem is, kyuubi doesn't allow for it to be perfectly diagonal, since amphibian sage fusion cannot work. Because of that, it's limits are exaggerated. and it becomes harder to use practically.
> ...



Nah you see Sasuke is horizontal. You see Sasuke gains a jutsu in a poor attempt to complete his own style. Naruto on the other hand has already mastered his style thus has different styles to master. He is diaganol since he is constantly improving and creating different styles. In fact he combines these different styles in combat to make one amazing style. Sasuke is horizontal though.

Yes, I can also spout baseless sentences, string them together, and call it an argument. This diagonal/horizontal jargin you keep going on about, is something we call fanfiction around here. It is a good try at attempting to downplay Naruto and place Sasuke on a pedestal but it is too riddled with bias and fanfiction to make any kind of sense.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

Cyclonic said:


> meh  those type starwments in general.
> 
> 
> just like the guy  earlier  was saying sasuke with base sharingan ,  shunshin and chidori  would defeat RM naruto.  it's fanboys like that that make people hate charecters on thses boards.



RM naruto has TWO FEATS.
He punched the shit outta kisame and used shunshin offensively for the first time.

Sweet

sasuke has been using shunshin offensively since part one.
His sharingan can control minds, read movement, and see chakra.
And, chidori eisou can cut through chakra meat, Which is remarkably denser than naruto's Person meat.

How is that illogical?


How is that all kooky kinds of crazy?



> *He didn't refute my case at all, he basically called me a "sasukesexual",*
> 
> 
> Theres no need to to refute your case becuase it's absolute  nonsense.  If someone made  a page long detailed post about why a piece of dookie would  defeat Sasuke would you expect me to read and refute that several times over?    lol   Just becuase you "out write " someone  doesnt mean your  write huge walls of text  mean shit if they are just  exaggerrated  fanboyism.


Yet, you all write walls of text to call me an idiot and a fan-boy?
Now,that is illogical 
If you come up with a hypothesis that is valid and sound, then I would be like... Okay. At least you tried. I may even agree if it makes sense, but if you just rage out and say, NO, I will not reply because you are stupid, yet have actively replied to tell me so, I am going to call that out.

Right now, you aren't discussing, you are flaming.
Flaming is a practically a no-no on forums.




> *that is why I said "two different things"*
> 
> thats why the logic for one doesnt apply to the other.


Okay, so what is the library for?
Correct me.



> *well do it.*
> 
> For what?  what benifit would I get from it? I'm not proving anything becuase most posters already know base sasuke  wouldnt defeat rm naruto.
> 
> And regardless of what I say   you'll just deny it or take somthing else out of context.   Thats what your kind does.



If you don't get pleasure from discussion, or at least critical reading, why the hell are you in the library in the first place? Go to HOU if you wanna talk general, or some other part of the board.

Give me something sound, and I will agree. I am not just being a devil's advocate, I am just using logic.

If one person says sasuke is stronger because he is cooler, that is bullshit.
Since coolness is relative to ones subjective opinion.

If they say sasuke is stronger, not in physical prowress, but due to having a strong foundation base, A large variety of jutsu, great adaptability, and the tools needed to win a fight, then that is sound, valid, and something I agree on.

What YOU are doing is saying naruto wins cause he is cooler.
See why I have a problem. There is no explanation. Just an opinion based on powerscaling. Flawed powerscaling.



boohead said:


> well this thread certainly lowered my IQ a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> "durrr regular MS iz strunger than RM, derp"


I am the one who lowered your I.Q?
Are you serious? How? I have used Pics, Proof, Intelligent language, and facts.

If you think I.Q is actually lowered by listening to inteligent speech, then...
I don't even know how to tackle that. It's like saying going to school makes you dumb




FallenAngelII said:


> Ahahahaha, the pinnacle of hypocrisy: I just got negged by a user with the reason being "kindness is never overrated".



Negs come from the worst places, eh. I personally don't neg at all.

anyway.
the response.



FallenAngelII said:


> Which was before Naruto gained RM.
> 
> Naruto statement was complete bullshit. Naruto did not know the kunai was poisoned (unless he's psychic or Sakura completely fails at crafting poisons, crafting poisons which take quite a while to take effect but that is easily sensed) and Sasuke was clearly half-blind.
> 
> Naruto had no clue of Sasuke's current level. There was literally no way for him to know about Sasuke's Amaterasu, Kagatsuchi, Susano'o or Kirin. All he had to go on was hype (that Sasuke killed Orochimaru) and the skills Sasuke showed off in Part I. Yet he declared them both equal.


True.




> Also, you all seem to be missing a vital piece of the puzzle: Naruto has regained his chakra arms. Arms which can move individually with zero physical input from Naruto (i.e. Naruto won't give away how they'll move through his own movements). *The Sharingan cannot anticipate the movements of pure chakra such as those of Naruto's chakra arms*, thus, Naruto has regained a natural counter to the Sharingan.


Idk.
Sasuke can anticipate singular movements very well.
It is when eight or nine different attacks are coming all at once with two hands to stop them that confusion sets in.

Bee juggling swords, and attacking with six at one time. That is confusing as hell, and even though he could see them all, it couldn't counter.

With naruto, he had to fight with his shroud moving by itself. That was what confused him. The sharingan naturally sees and breaks down the movement of chakra, that is how it copies skills, but it is too much to ask for when someone is moving so fast that it's hard for normal eyes to see him AND his chakra is countering without him having to think.

It is the same as Gaara's Sand shield. It is moving without him having to think or react, thus two different reactions can happen at once.



> Naruto's increased speed also gives him a means to evade Amaterasu (A did it at near much point-blank range). With the Kyuubi's will sealed away, it is also possible that Naruto may be able to fuse with Ma and Pa, giving him a way to counter Sasuke's Genjutsu (this is, of course, speculation).



A has has a boost to his reflexes by pumping raiton chakra directly into his nervous system.
Naruto merely trades his chakra for kyuubi's in Bijuu sage mode.
His body is not changed at all, like in his KN0. 

That is why his reflexes and control are not as high, he is still using an uzumaki body, not an uzumaki/kyuubi body. He did use shunshin on an offensive which is why anything was said about Yondaime. Few people actually use shunshin while in combat.

Sharingan users, A, Naruto and Yondaime. Those are the only people who have.

The problem is naruto is NOT yondaime, Does not have raiton no yoroi, and does not have a sharingan, so he doesn't have the adequate reflexes or chakra control to actually do it well.
That is why he used to much force to use shunshin, and because he is in The bijuu chakra mode, that is why it is dangerous.

Naruto cannot heal like he used to, since the elephant seals only mix what he gets from the shishou seal. Kyuubi's chakra is outside of it, so it basically nerfs his healing ability until he mixes it back and tames kyuubi.

Also, the bijuu aura mode does not give him more durability, since it only replaces chakra, and he does not have a cloak, which is a power of the tailed modes.

So using shunshin with his level of chakra control is a TERRIBLE idea.



> If Naruto can combined RM with SM, he'll retain heightened durability and Kawazu Kumite, rendering close-range combat in his favour. Sasuke's regular Katons aren't worth crap (they're regular Katons, after all) and his lightning is naturally weak against Naruto's wind.


Using the old KSM would be EXTREMELY beneficial. The one he turned on against nagato?

Using The bijuu aura mode with ksm is only slightly better than a regular Bijuu aura mode, since it covers up the weaknesses of the bijuu aura mode, while retaining a few strengths.
One problem is he could not use clones to extend sage mode, since... Bijuu aura mode does not allow clones.

Also, say goodbye to all that senpou goodness. 




> Naruto, being a Chakra powerhouse and bushin feint expert, is also a master of the art of attrition. Sasuke cannot afford to turn a battle between the two of them into a war of attrition because of how Susano'o works. If Naruto can drag the battle on long enough (and if Sasuke has to resort to hiding behind Susano'o in order to not get made short work of), victory will be Naruto's (because Sasuke will run out of Chakra).
> 
> Naruto is currently training to become Sasuke's natural counter.



Naruto has roughly the same amount of chakra as sasuke in base.
Sasuke has a boost from being an uchiha and is probably has 2-3 times the chakra as kakashi. Naruto has 4.

Also, sasuke has kept susano'o on for 10 minutes straight against danzo.
Sage mode lasts 5 minutes, And Bijuu aura mode is probably indefinite as long as too much chakra isn't used, but the longer it is kept on, the more chakra kyuubi eats, and it eats fast.

I would say 15 minutes is the limit for naruto pacing himself during a fight, if he wants to stay alive.

Sage mode would be great, but he would need EXCELLENT chakra management skills if he were to use both in one fight.

Sage mode requires molded chakra, but doesn't use it permanently.
Bijuu mode overrides all chakra, and gradually devours unmolded chakra.
So, it would be hard to use, if not impossible.






Rosencrantz said:


> There is nothing to hate on you for. Please do not poorly attempt to make yourself look superior. Thanks.
> 
> Right, Right.


Superior?
We are all the same here pal.

But you have blamed my logic on a tardism, that does not exist.
Sasuke is awesome, but at the same time, he can suck plenty dick.
He's immoral, acts crazy, does not use his sharingan efficiently enough, and is a brat.

All of these are true. He isn't perfect, but you don't need to be perfect to beat RM naruto.
Yamato could probably do it. Hell, plenty could that can resist physical damage and have great reflexes. Why?

Cause he has two feats. that isn't enough for naruto. His ability list isn't high enough.



> Nah you see Sasuke is horizontal. You see Sasuke gains a jutsu in a poor attempt to complete his own style. Naruto on the other hand has already mastered his style thus has different styles to master. He is diaganol since he is constantly improving and creating different styles. In fact he combines these different styles in combat to make one amazing style. Sasuke is horizontal though.
> 
> Yes, I can also spout baseless sentences, string them together, and call it an argument. This diagonal/horizontal jargin you keep going on about, is something we call fanfiction around here. It is a good try at attempting to downplay Naruto and place Sasuke on a pedestal but it is too riddled with bias and fanfiction to make any kind of sense.



Isn't the act of aquiring jutsu the poor attempt of ALL ninja to complete their own style?

As for sasuke, his style is protean due to his sharingan. It changes all the time because being an uchiha means you don't have to settle for a style, because you can learn them all. As bruce lee said, the strongest style is no style.
That is what sasuke's "style is"

As for what he uses, those are... preferences.

Naruto needs a style,because he can't learn them all. Well he could with the TKB learning method, but alas, that cannot be used to the fullest anymore. so he has mastered what he has.
Henge and kage bunshin. 
That is his style. Using rasengan is more of a technique that comes from is, since he can't do with one hand.

Later senjutsu becomes his style as well, and now jinchuuriki style is his too.
Before it was more like going into a berzerk frenzy so there wasn't really calculated action, but know he has control and has to master it as a style.

The cool thing about naruto's style is everyone can't do it. It is practically unique to himself alone.
The uncool thing is he can't do what most others can.
Since learning traditionally doesn't come easy to him, he focuses.

The reason I Said he was horizontal is because naruto has three different styles, but can only use one at a time. Horizontal means in a line going east or westward.   < or >
He can choose one at a time, but all don't get to play.

Singular would be like... Rock lee.
He is good at one thing and one thing only, so he does only one thing, and one thing well that is in a north or south direction like this !

Sasuke is diagonal because he can learn more than one style, Such as kekkei genkai, ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, Juinjutsu, ect.
And each new jutsu he learns makes the rest even better. He can mix and match freely.
Diagonal is like this /

Does that make since?
I didn't say kishi made it. I made it, and It makes since, so it is valid.
Things that don't follow logic are invalid.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Lies you say?
> 
> 
> Now, what douryouku did he turn on one Eye for?
> ...


Lol you addressed one point. So yes lies. Secondly, this shows nothing. It shows Sasuke having the Mangekyou active. You have baselessly assumed that he activated it for the sole purpose of better observation. It's genjutsu is more potent. Not observation. Now for proof you need one or more of the following: Manga stating it as such, character statements, Databook entries, or clearly shown that non Mangekyou is inferior to Mangekyou with observation ability. Everything else is off topic or just abandoned points you knwo you can't back up (although you can't back this one up either). Mangekyou activation uses more chakra? You mind getting some manga statement to back this up instead of making up stuff? Honestly when you have to make up abilities for your favorite character it shows how insecure you are about his actual in-manga abilities.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 21, 2011)

sanji's left eye said:


> Lol you addressed one point. So yes lies. Secondly, this shows nothing. It shows Sasuke having the Mangekyou active. You have baselessly assumed that he activated it for the sole purpose of better observation. It's genjutsu is more potent. Not observation. Now for proof you need one or more of the following: Manga stating it as such, character statements, Databook entries, or clearly shown that non Mangekyou is inferior to Mangekyou with observation ability. Everything else is off topic or just abandoned points you knwo you can't back up (although you can't back this one up either). Mangekyou activation uses more chakra? You mind getting some manga statement to back this up instead of making up stuff? Honestly when you have to make up abilities for your favorite character it shows how insecure you are about his actual in-manga abilities.



Okay.
Since the fight happened after the third databook, there is not printed information that such a thing is from the mouth of kishi. (doesn't mean it isn't true. Sasuke turned the sharingan on, and hit danzo 
square in the heart, a calculated action, which could only be done if the heart was visible, or at least the kirakakukei, which is seen by the sharingan.

That is shown here

older.
older.
older.

Turns it off, and keeps one on to hit danzo.)


However, would you pose that the mangekyou takes no more chakra to activate or maintain without use of the Douryouku?

We know keeping the sharingan on uses chakra, even though it is so small for adult uchiha that they could keep it on all day. Would you be willing to make the case that the same could be done with the mangekyou, at the rate of slowly deteriorating the eyesight?

If it needs more chakra to activate and maintain without using douryouku, then it would mean the eye is on whole more powerful.

If it is effortless and is just like gaining another function, but isn't open at all times like the regular sharingan, and just changes shape to accommodate the douryouku, then that is fine too.

But I need a stance.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Superior?
> We are all the same here pal.
> 
> But you have blamed my logic on a tardism, that does not exist.
> ...


Glad I could teach you that.

Not sure if logic is the right word. More like the absence of it. Naruto and Sasuke having the same chakra levels is just one I happened to see while scanning to get to this part of the post. I never said tardism btw. Idc about any of that as it has nothing to do with the agrument.

Yeah you have nothing to say here. 

That's a fallacy. Basically it is like saying EMS Sasuke, Rikudou Sennin, and the 1st Raikage all join forces and die to part 1 Naruto. Why? They have no feats. Try again.





dark messiah verdandi said:


> Isn't the act of aquiring jutsu the poor attempt of ALL ninja to complete their own style?
> 
> As for sasuke, his style is protean due to his sharingan. It changes all the time because being an uchiha means you don't have to settle for a style, because you can learn them all. As bruce lee said, the strongest style is no style.
> That is what sasuke's "style is"
> ...


Now you are seeing the flaws in your logic.

More long winded fanfic jargin. This line theory is really fascinating but it is a poor attempt to downplay Naruto and love Sasuke. Let's use this exact logic for a second. Sasuke gains jutsu thus increases his 1 style through a diagonal line. Naruto gains jutsu and power as well. As we have seen his base form has come a long way going from academy level to beyond Kakashi. That's a diagonal. Naruto's SM form has improved as well. He was able to gather more natural energy after training. Naruto was working on increasing the time. Giant Rasengan Barrage. Gargatuan Rasengan. His strength seemed to increase. Taijutsu skill increase. Using your own ridiculous "theory," a line with a 0 slope is unchanging. The slope signifies the improvement in ability. So saying he is horizontal means he is unchanging in ability. However Naruto has shown to get both of those modes stronger. RM is now being worked on with greater control over claws and a bjuu bomb. Showing more improvement. If I use your logic Naruto has 3 diagonals while Sasuke only has 1. Naruto is improving in ability thus cannot be horizontal.

Although this is under the assumption you are using actual logic. Not made up fanfic. And sorry but you have a depressing case of the latter.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 21, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> RM naruto has TWO FEATS.
> He punched the shit outta kisame and used shunshin offensively for the first time.


He punched *Samehada* in which Kisame was hiding, yet the punch had such destructive force that Kisame started *bleeding internally* (either in his lungs, throat or stomach).



dark messiah verdandi said:


> If they say sasuke is stronger, not in physical prowress, but due to having a strong foundation base, A large variety of jutsu, great adaptability, and the tools needed to win a fight, then that is sound, valid, and something I agree on.


When speaking of Sauke vs. Naruto (which this thread is ultimately about), you're not comparing the two were they to fight a thid party but in a duel with Naruto and Sasuke as the only combattants.




dark messiah verdandi said:


> I am the one who lowered your I.Q?


He/She didn't even address you...



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Sasuke can anticipate singular movements very well.
> It is when eight or nine different attacks are coming all at once with two hands to stop them that confusion sets in.
> 
> Bee juggling swords, and attacking with six at one time. That is confusing as hell, and even though he could see them all, it couldn't counter.


Sasuke very specifically stated that the Sharingan cannot anticipate the movement of chakra limbs. It has nothing to do with being confused by multiple concurrent movements.

Part I Sasuke using no Sharingan successfully took out the Demon Brothers while fighting both simoultaneously. Using a 2 Tomoe Sharingan, he was able to dodge Haku's needles (and Haku did not throw those one at a time).

However, faced with KN1 Naruto, using a 3 Tomoe Sharingan, Sasuke remarked that "Even though I could anticipate Naruto's movements, the chakra moved differently by itself. [...] I can't anticipate it with these 'eyes'." (not official Viz translation, I have that volume packed in a moving box).



dark messiah verdandi said:


> With naruto, he had to fight with his shroud moving by itself. That was what confused him. The sharingan naturally sees and breaks down the movement of chakra, that is how it copies skills, but it is too much to ask for when someone is moving so fast that it's hard for normal eyes to see him AND his chakra is countering without him having to think.


It's not a question of speed.

also, the Sharingan cannot read minds. Naruto controls his limbs through thought. If he fights Sasuke in hand-to-hand combat while simoultaneously having his Chakra shroud move independently, there is no way for Sasuke to anticipate its movement. End of story.

RM Naruto is also leagues faster than KN1 Naruto.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> It is the same as Gaara's Sand shield. It is moving without him having to think or react, thus two different reactions can happen at once.


Why it happens is immaterial. The end result is the same.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> A has has a boost to his reflexes by pumping raiton chakra directly into his nervous system.
> Naruto merely trades his chakra for kyuubi's in Bijuu sage mode.
> His body is not changed at all, like in his KN0.


His reflexes are faster, his movement speed is lightning fast, he's stronger. I'd say his body changes plenty, the same way A is amplified by his shroud (just not exactly the same).



dark messiah verdandi said:


> That is why his reflexes and control are not as high, he is still using an uzumaki body, not an uzumaki/kyuubi body.


Manga evidence for that his reflexes aren't improved by utilizing RM? His control is not that high because he has yet to hone his skills utilizing RM. I'm sure you were an expert cyclist the first time you ever hopped on top of a bike.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> He did use shunshin on an offensive which is why anything was said about Yondaime. Few people actually use shunshin while in combat.


There is absolutely nothing in the manga that states conclusively that Naruto utilized Shunshin. It could very well be his natural movement speed, which would make sense. The more Chakra the Kyuubi pumped into Naruto, the faster he became.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> The problem is naruto is NOT yondaime, Does not have raiton no yoroi, and does not have a sharingan, so he doesn't have the adequate reflexes or chakra control to actually do it well.
> That is why he used to much force to use shunshin, and because he is in The bijuu chakra mode, that is why it is dangerous.


Or maybe it was because *it was the first time he'd ever moved at that speed*.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Naruto cannot heal like he used to, since the elephant seals only mix what he gets from the shishou seal. Kyuubi's chakra is outside of it, so it basically nerfs his healing ability until he mixes it back and tames kyuubi.


He has Sennin Mode for that. If he manages to combine the two, he won't need accelerated healing since he'll have heightened durability.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Also, the bijuu aura mode does not give him more durability, since it only replaces chakra, and he does not have a cloak, which is a power of the tailed modes.


Empty speculation. If Neji can create a perfect defense using "normal" chakra, why can't Naruto use his massive quantities of chakra to fashion one for himself, such as a cloak? A, after all, gains a heightened defense with his Raiton Armor.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Using The bijuu aura mode with ksm is only slightly better than a regular Bijuu aura mode, since it covers up the weaknesses of the bijuu aura mode, while retaining a few strengths.
> One problem is he could not use clones to extend sage mode, since... Bijuu aura mode does not allow clones.


...
...
...

He'd create the clones *before* going into Bijuu Aura Mode.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Naruto has roughly the same amount of chakra as sasuke in base.


What? According to what naruto evidence?!



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Sasuke has a boost from being an uchiha and is probably has 2-3 times the chakra as kakashi.


Sasuke is a, what, 5th generation Uchiha at best? With thining bloodlines, unless the Uchiha practiced clan-wide i*c*st, his chakra capacity may not be as strong as that of his predecessors.

Also, according to what databook or manga evidence does Sasuke have a base chakra level on par with base Naruto, especialy Part II base Naruto? In Part I, Sasuke's limit was 3 or 4 Chidori before he'd *die* from Chakra exhaustion. Kakashi in Part II ha shown himself to be greatly beyond that level. We don't know how much Sasuke has managed to cultivate his Chakra capacity, but it probably isn't dramatically improved from Part I seeing as how he ran low on Chakra against Deidara after relatively few Jutsu.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Also, sasuke has kept susano'o on for 10 minutes straight against danzo.
> Sage mode lasts 5 minutes, And Bijuu aura mode is probably indefinite as long as too much chakra isn't used, but the longer it is kept on, the more chakra kyuubi eats, and it eats fast.


Actually, Sasuke didn't activate Susano'o until two of Danzou's Sharingan had already closed and he immediately killed Dazou, closing a 3rd one right aftewards, which means that he maintained Susano'o for only roughly 7-8 minutes.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Sage mode requires molded chakra, but doesn't use it permanently.
> Bijuu mode overrides all chakra, and gradually devours unmolded chakra.
> So, it would be hard to use, if not impossible.


It all depends on how the to modes are combined.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Okay.
> Since the fight happened after the third databook, there is not printed information that such a thing is from the mouth of kishi. (doesn't mean it isn't true. Sasuke turned the sharingan on, and hit danzo
> square in the heart, a calculated action, which could only be done if the heart was visible, or at least the kirakakukei, which is seen by the sharingan.


Or he could just possess great aim and a rudimentary knowledge of human anatomy.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> Glad I could teach you that.
> 
> Not sure if logic is the right word. More like the absence of it. Naruto and Sasuke having the same chakra levels is just one I happened to see while scanning to get to this part of the post. I never said tardism btw. Idc about any of that as it has nothing to do with the agrument.
> 
> ...



Well, we have not seen the first raikage so that is impossible to say.
Along with feats is capability. If a character has potential for work, then it can act in such a way.

Rikudou sennin had the sharingan, rin'negan, senju stamina, and a bound juubi. All of that is fact. He used both senju and uchiha powers to the fullest. Fact.
He could warp reality with onmyouton. fact. He had nearly infinite chakra because he had control of the juubi. fact.

Those facts alone do not require one to act on them, because the potential of the factual statement is so powerful that it doesn't need it. With immesurable chakra and the ability to use hypnosis alone, rikudou sennin could beat part one naruto. Part two naruto lost to an inferior sasuke with just the same type of action.

No need for feats, he has capability.

The same works for Sasuke.
We know the capability of the EMS, so without adding any more speculative powers past the ability to use MS douryouku, we can see he has the capacity to beat RM naruto as it is today.

Bijuu rasengan isn't complete, so that is invalid. It has not been shown to have the capability to be a game changer, since the first one was countered by sasuke's flapping chidori.

Also, sasuke's susano'o has a mirror of yata, so that makes it even worse on naruto.

Finally, the fact that naruto's body doesn't actually undergo a metamorphoses to use the bijuu chakra mode, but his chakra is exchanged makes a big deal. He has more energy than he can control at once, which gives sasuke an advantage, since he can control his energy.

Sasuke doesn't need a single change in stats to win, so long as he retains the capability to use all of his jutsu and douryouku as long as he has the chakra, he can win.




> Now you are seeing the flaws in your logic.
> 
> More long winded fanfic jargin. This line theory is really fascinating but it is a poor attempt to downplay Naruto and love Sasuke. Let's use this exact logic for a second. Sasuke gains jutsu thus increases his 1 style through a diagonal line. Naruto gains jutsu and power as well. As we have seen his base form has come a long way going from academy level to beyond Kakashi. That's a diagonal. Naruto's SM form has improved as well. He was able to gather more natural energy after training. Naruto was working on increasing the time. Giant Rasengan Barrage. Gargatuan Rasengan. His strength seemed to increase. Taijutsu skill increase. Using your own ridiculous "theory," a line with a 0 slope is unchanging. The slope signifies the improvement in ability. So saying he is horizontal means he is unchanging in ability. However Naruto has shown to get both of those modes stronger. RM is now being worked on with greater control over claws and a bjuu bomb. Showing more improvement. If I use your logic Naruto has 3 diagonals while Sasuke only has 1. Naruto is improving in ability thus cannot be horizontal.
> 
> Although this is under the assumption you are using actual logic. Not made up fanfic. And sorry but you have a depressing case of the latter.



Its not the jutsu that have a problem being diagonal, it is the styles.
When you can't use more than one style at a time, and each gives you a limit on the jutsu you can use, it creates a problem of efficiency.

Base, sage and kyuubi are all incompatible as of now.
He can do something unique in sage and kyuubi mode, but he cannot use all three at the same time, nor can he use all of his jutsu in all three.

They are seperate. Just because you have vertical jutsu, doesn't mean your style ain't horizontal.

What I mean by all of this is naruto has to pick and choose. He can never have all his eggs in one basket, he is forced by the author to have three baskets, and carry one at a time.

Sasuke is not forced by the author. He can have one basket, two baskets, three, twelve, or how many he wants, and put his eggs(jutsu) in one or all of them and carry them all.

He has _Freedom of Investment._


If you want a "canon way of organization and statistics", then lets look at the game Shogi. Naruto is like a rook. Who move up,down,left and right.
This is similar to the whole directional thing I was talking about.

Sasuke is like a Dragon king. (in western chess, it is a king and a rook combined. Almost as powerful as a western queen)
He can focus on one thing, focus on alot of things, and he can freely mix them up as he pleases.

Honestly, if one could play a western queen in shogi, that is what sasuke could be.

A powerful piece, but can be played wrongly by a fool, or has the power to do anything If commanded by a powerful king.



Now, that isn't "fan-fiction."
fan-fiction is a narrative created by fans using another source as literal inspiration.
What I was doing was making a method of statistical analysis that people could understand. Everyone understands directions, no? So I analyzed them with a directional pattern.

Since you didn't like that, I said fine, and changed it to shogi, something that the manga itself uses to analyze the characters, their fighting styles, and their personalities ALL THE TIME.

is that acceptable?


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> He punched *Samehada* in which Kisame was hiding, yet the punch had such destructive force that Kisame started *bleeding internally* (either in his lungs, throat or stomach).


Excellent.
Could naruto have done the same in KN0, I believe so. He was smashing sasuke into rock cliffs when they fought.

And, everyone pukes blood in this series. Doing so usually means you are close to death IRL, but it is the penalty for taking a body-shot in this manga.
Think nothing of it. 

Also, samehada is a living creature, it isn't completely made of steel, and becomes fleshy when fused with kisame. I would be suprised if he didn't do the damage he did, cause it should be the bare minimum someone should be capable of when main-lining bijuu chakra.




> When speaking of Sauke vs. Naruto (which this thread is ultimately about), you're not comparing the two were they to fight a thid party but in a duel with Naruto and Sasuke as the only combattants.



Do you mean I am not, or I should not?
wording is a little confusing here...



> He/She didn't even address you...


My fault, to whoever I snapped at.



> Sasuke very specifically stated that the Sharingan cannot anticipate the movement of chakra limbs. It has nothing to do with being confused by multiple concurrent movements.


He cannot anticipate it, but he CAN see it.








You are right, he says he cannot anticipate the chakra.
But he also says why right before. It has a mind of its own, and even though naruto moves, it moves in a different direction. That is WHY he can't anticipate it.

The anticipation requires one to tell the subtle movements in the chakra by peering into the body and recording movements.

The problem with RM, is that it isn't a cloak. It is the chakra in naruto's body, not ON naruto's body. The cloak is similar to amaterasu, as it rests on top of the body.
In the bijuu aura mode, naruto shapes the chakra through shape manipulation, which the sharingan can see clearly.

Will he be able to predict where it goes before it goes? No. Will he need to? No, because he can actually focus on them. Naruto can't attack twice in one hit. He has one consciousness working, thus one method of attack.

Bee can let hachibi take partial control, thus can do multiple actions at the same time.  Naruto cannot because kyuubi hates him, and that is the problem in all of this. He shouldn't be experimenting with the bijuu dama, but communing with kyuubi so he CAN have a chance at beating sasuke.

That is my problem. he's doing it wrong.
He is always doing it wrong.



> Part I Sasuke using no Sharingan successfully took out the Demon Brothers while fighting both simoultaneously. Using a 2 Tomoe Sharingan, he was able to dodge Haku's needles (and Haku did not throw those one at a time).
> 
> However, faced with KN1 Naruto, using a 3 Tomoe Sharingan, Sasuke remarked that "Even though I could anticipate Naruto's movements, the chakra moved differently by itself. [...] I can't anticipate it with these 'eyes'." (not official Viz translation, I have that volume packed in a moving box).


Right. Look above.

You can't dodge within a dodge. That is why he got hit. it gives no opening to reveal when it is coming BECAUSE kyuubi is independently moving chakra. It is sentient. That is why it is dangerous. It is a big magic kitsune with a bad attitude, and doesn't listen at all, even when binded, so it attacks out of it's own volition.

Just like gaara's sand attacks by itself. Same principle, different medium.



> It's not a question of speed.
> 
> also, the Sharingan cannot read minds. Naruto controls his limbs through thought. If he fights Sasuke in hand-to-hand combat while simoultaneously having his Chakra shroud move independently, there is no way for Sasuke to anticipate its movement. End of story.




The problem is naruto cannot multitask either.
The mind is only capable of doing one thing at a time. No matter how quickly it switches, it can only think of one thing consciously.

The Kyuubi shroud was autonomous. Naruto didn't move it, kyuubi did. The thing is, even if naruto didn't move a muscle, sasuke still has regular movement tracking. His eyes still catch all movement. It is the anticipation that he looses, but he can still see it in what would look like slow motion to us.
The sharingan hightens the perception as well.

However, naruto cannot get rid of the delay time between his mind moving his fist, and seperately moving his chakra. Even if it takes a milisecond, it takes a milisecond. That is what made the shroud cool, it moved without the *ping*, it was seperate consciousness made real.



> Why it happens is immaterial. The end result is the same.
> His reflexes are faster, his movement speed is lightning fast, he's stronger. I'd say his body changes plenty, the same way A is amplified by his shroud (just not exactly the same).
> 
> Manga evidence for that his reflexes aren't improved by utilizing RM? His control is not that high because he has yet to hone his skills utilizing RM. I'm sure you were an expert cyclist the first time you ever hopped on top of a bike.
> RM Naruto is also leagues faster than KN1 Naruto.



Because The Bijuu Aura mode does not allow one to do that. It is a simple procedure. Naruto uses the mode by taking in kyuubi's chakra into his body. It replaces his own unmolded chakra.
Now, because kyuubi can inherently sense malice, naruto can as well.
It is a side effect, like shukaku users being able to use sand.

Now, the thing is, naruto's senses are not improved, nor his durability or strength because he is not focusing the chakra to do so. In his tailed modes, his body was first transformed, THEN the after effects happen.

He does not go through that physical metamorphoses, so he doesn't have inherently higher senses. He shouldn't. Since kyuubi's chakra is without ego or will, It does not try and make naruto into itself, it is raw, so all he gets is raw chakra. Its potent, and naturally senses emotion as a foundation, but everything else is out.

As far as the speed, it was not due to metamorphoses, but due to him using shunshin no jutsu. He used it with 25x chakra, so yeah, it through him for a loop, and was fast, but his body cannot keep up with it.






> There is absolutely nothing in the manga that states conclusively that Naruto utilized Shunshin. It could very well be his natural movement speed, which would make sense. The more Chakra the Kyuubi pumped into Naruto, the faster he became.
> 
> 
> Or maybe it was because *it was the first time he'd ever moved at that speed*.
> ...


Bee Saw it, recognized it, and noted on it. And yamato criticized it.
The reason it was shunshin no jutsu and not simply running is because naruto's legs are normal.

Using the Kyuubi-Naruto modes does exactly what it's named. Turn him into a KYUUBI/naruto. He actually transforms, rather than glows due to luminescence of kyuubi's chakra. Naruto stays the same, in the Aura mode, but his chakra is replaced. In kyuubi mode, his body is the first thing to transform, which allows him to become kyuubi.

There are instances when people run as fast as a shunshin.
Gouken users, jinchuuriki,ect. But that is because of muscular strength. 

Shunshin is when you pump chakra into your body to increase speed, while gripping the ground for traction. It is a running/body activation technique that uses chakra, it isn't just running REALLY fast. It gives you what you need to do it.
here is the databook discription.



*Spoiler*: __ 



 I had done this a little while ago, but it's not perfect nor is it really complete.

陣風の如神速移動術!!
Movement technique that's swiftness is like a gust!!

風と共に現れ風のように消え
Appear like a breeze and vanish with the wind.

去る忍者の瞬間移動術その超速移動を肉眼で 捕えるのは 不可能に近く,
The shinobi's movement skill to leave in an instant.
From close up that ultra-fast movement is impossible to grasp with the naked eye,

常人から見ればあたかも術者がワー プしたかのように映る.
From a normal person's perspective, the shunshin practitioner appears to warp in and out.

実際はチヤクラで肉体を活性化しての高速移動で,
the actual condition is that of the activation of the bodies chakra for the fast movement.

移動する地点への距離の遠近や高などによつて,消費されるチヤクラの量は増感する
for this movement .... the place, the range, whether near or far, the amount and the like all depends on the increasing and decreasing expenditure of the neccessary amounts of chakra.







> Empty speculation. If Neji can create a perfect defense using "normal" chakra, why can't Naruto use his massive quantities of chakra to fashion one for himself, such as a cloak? A, after all, gains a heightened defense with his Raiton Armor.


Well, because it would simply be chakra shaped into a cloak, not the phenomenon of the Bijuu Cloak. There is a difference. One is sentient, the other is not. Also, one takes intent.

The bijuu cloak just comes on as you synchronize with the bijuu.
Naruto making a cloak in the aura mode would be because he wanted to make a cloak and would require him to maintain focus on it since he only has one consciousness at work.
Bee has two, thus can do very interesting things simultaneousness.





> He'd create the clones *before* going into Bijuu Aura Mode.


That doesn't work. All clones are affected by the change in chakra of the main host when dealing with bijuu.



> What? According to what naruto evidence?!
> 
> 
> Sasuke is a, what, 5th generation Uchiha at best? With thining bloodlines, unless the Uchiha practiced clan-wide i*c*st, his chakra capacity may not be as strong as that of his predecessors.



well, he is from the main family, so his blood would have been the purest, and from a direct line to rikudou. Also, it is not so much of a blood thinning situation since the presence of those genes causes the change. They are dominant genes. Heavily dominant, that is why they still work. Kekkei genkai are mutations in the body due to the presence of an extremely dominant gene.

If you could breed away sharingan, they wouldn have existed so long. Having the uchiha gene causes the mutation, and through effort, the blood kekkei genkai actually begins to refine itself, that is how and why the sharingan gets better.







> Also, according to what databook or manga evidence does Sasuke have a base chakra level on par with base Naruto, especialy Part II base Naruto? In Part I, Sasuke's limit was 3 or 4 Chidori before he'd *die* from Chakra exhaustion. Kakashi in Part II ha shown himself to be greatly beyond that level. We don't know how much Sasuke has managed to cultivate his Chakra capacity, but it probably isn't dramatically improved from Part I seeing as how he ran low on Chakra against Deidara after relatively few Jutsu.


Well, at base it is actually halfway decent, but as seen during the kage summit, sasuke was actually adapting the use of susano'o to pull out latent chakra (like the curse seal), and amplify other jutsu with it, like his genjutsu against shi (which wasn't a mangekyou genjutsu, but had so much chakra behind it that it hurt sasuke.)

Sasuke's chakra has always been high though. He was using katon at 12, something they should not be capable of.

Also, sasuke's 3.5 Stamina does not show his Spiritual energy, which is what gives him high chakra, so we have to go by rule of thumb.
Naruto has a five because he is a senju, but Spiritual energy does not have a category, since it is so... Immaterial. It would basically go down to focus and willpower, that is how hatred can boost sasuke's chakra. Because it is half way made out of hatred.

damn, that is kind of cool. Katon goukyaku with 8:2 yin/yang would be like 80% evil intent. 



> Actually, Sasuke didn't activate Susano'o until two of Danzou's Sharingan had already closed and he immediately killed Dazou, closing a 3rd one right aftewards, which means that he maintained Susano'o for only roughly 7-8 minutes.


My bad.
Still a long time.



> It all depends on how the to modes are combined.


Naw, naruto has to master kyuubi first.
Right now, it posses a threat, and would already eat all of naruto's senjutsu.



> Or he could just possess great aim and a rudimentary knowledge of human anatomy.



Oh,really.


----------



## jdbzkh (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Excellent.
> Could naruto have done the same in KN0, I believe so. He was smashing sasuke into rock cliffs when they fought.
> 
> And, everyone pukes blood in this series. Doing so usually means you are close to death IRL, but it is the penalty for taking a body-shot in this manga.
> ...



Did you miss out on the Bee vs Kisame fight? Samahada tanked many, many blows for blue man. To the point where he just sucked the life right out of Bee and when he actually fused with the sword, Killer was flat out useless. 

So Naruto actually capable of punching through that defense and not really having much of an after effect is a sign of both great strength and unbelievable amounts of chakra. 

Hell the chapter right after had Kisame taking Bee's chakra once more with great ease. So yes Naruto's little punch in RM not only showed off speed similar to the yellow flash but also great power. Saying KN0 can do the same is like me going CS1 is on the same level as CS2 when its pretty damn obvious that this new form gives all the same benefits as the old, while adding something new and allowing Naruto the ability to use his true fighting style.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

jdbzkh said:


> Did you miss out on the Bee vs Kisame fight? Samahada tanked many, many blows for blue man. To the point where he just sucked the life right out of Bee and when he actually fused with the sword, Killer was flat out useless.
> 
> So Naruto actually capable of punching through that defense and not really having much of an after effect is a sign of both great strength and unbelievable amounts of chakra.
> 
> Hell the chapter right after had Kisame taking Bee's chakra once more with great ease. So yes Naruto's little punch in RM not only showed off speed similar to the yellow flash but also great power.


Samehada was also not fused with kisame for most of the fight.
It retained it's original shape, and got stronger due to absorbing the bijuu cloak from bee

Naruto does not have a cloak, so it couldn't absorb him by being punched. It would have had to shave it from his body, which was impossible since kisame-hada was wrapped up.

Naruto can activate his body with kyuubi's chakra. That is called shunshin.
He however cannot actually transform his body for better performance. We saw the power of a shunshin-punch, which had about 150 pounds of mass x the velocity of the shunshin, which probably had thousands of pounds of force behind it.

I did a calculation, and if shunshin made naruto move at 100 mph, at 160 pounds with one second of acceleration, The force (in joules) would be 1 million, which is the same as a 2000 pounds hitting you at 100 miles per hour.

That is basically like being hit by a car... In his punch. So, you can see that
what he did is more than enough to crack the wall. If he was only moving at 100mph, his hand would have had the same amount of power as a car moving at the same speed.



> Saying KN0 can do the same is like me going CS1 is on the same level as CS2 when its pretty damn obvious that this new form gives all the same benefits as the old, while adding something new and allowing Naruto the ability to use his true fighting style.



So what is new?
Naruto is not actually transforming into the kyuubi, so he looses his feral body with all it's strength and senses, He cannot use the bijuu cloak, and he cannot fully use partial transformation, all because kyuubi's will is encaged.

All he has in this mode is kyuubi's pure, unworked chakra.
It isn't used to transform his body, it isn't made into a cloak, and it isn't made into chakra flesh. Those are the three standard ways to manipulate bijuu chakra.

It is simply used for what naruto wants to use it on. The problem isn't naruto.
Its kyuubi. Kyuubi won't play ball, so naruto is in this infantile stage of bijuu control. He isn't controling kyuubi's mind at all.

To be a perfect jinchuuriki, you must control the ego AND the chakra, and naruto only has control of the chakra, which is why RM is not a good form.
It would be if he had control of kyuubi, but he doesn't, so it isn't.

Bee should have not assumed, and got right to work on making naruto tame kyuubi. Now he is training him in an improper way, partly because is not used to teaching unorthodox jinchuuriki.


----------



## jimbob631 (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I did a calculation, and if shunshin made naruto move at 100 mph, at 160 pounds with one second of acceleration, The force (in joules) would be 1 million, which is the same as a 2000 pounds hitting you at 100 miles per hour.




Oh buddy, you did a math calculation for a fictional story...smh

Seriously dude your falling into a classic trap a ton of people do, which is forgetting Naruto is a manga not real life.  It may not make 100% sense for Naruto's RM form to be stronger than his previous ones, but I'll bet anything it will be.  Its not about the logic you apply to the story, its about the authors point of view, and the author has clearly illustrated Naruto's new powerup will be beast.  

There's no point in arguing the pros and cons of his new form, its just too clear it will be superior to anything Naruto has previously shown.  If you don't think so your just lying to yourself at this point, there isn't any math calculation you can do that will prove your right on this one.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Oh buddy, you did a math calculation for a fictional story...smh



You do realize a great deal of higher level math deals with fiction and impossible equations right? 
don't hate appreciate. Now you know that if naruto was moving from 0-100 in a second, that the amount of power would have at the focal point is a metric ton.
That is someting cool to know.



> Seriously dude your falling into a classic trap a ton of people do, which is forgetting Naruto is a manga not real life.  It may not make 100% sense for Naruto's RM form to be stronger than his previous ones, but I'll bet anything it will be.  Its not about the logic you apply to the story, its about the authors point of view, and the author has clearly illustrated Naruto's new powerup will be beast.


The author has already pointed out the flaws.
His chakra is eaten when using it, and when "RM" is split it exponentially devours stamina and spirit. 
Those are BIG flaws. The author didn't say it was better at all.
It is a simple thing, naruto switches his stamina and spirit out for kyuubi chakra.

It would kick SO much ass if kyuubi was tame, but it isn't, so it sucks.

And which mode is better is kind of a moot point. They all suck unless naruto is in complete control, and if he is, they all rock.

I am not saying naruto can't become powerful with it, it's just that the present situation causes him not to be. There are too many flaws for there to be a boon.

Once naruto masters kyuubi, it's on like flash gordon. Until then, saying he is going to beat any remaining uchiha is out of the question. He has 25X chakra. That is all. He still can't use all of it, or he will die.



> There's no point in arguing the pros and cons of his new form, its just too clear it will be superior to anything Naruto has previously shown.  If you don't think so your just lying to yourself at this point, there isn't any math calculation you can do that will prove your right on this one.



Why would it be superior? Why?
Cause it's new? That isn't superior.
Cause it looks like RS? So what, sasuke's eyes look like his too.

You are not the author, so you cannot say your point is any more supported by his opinion than mine.

Kishi has explained the VARIOUS flaws in naruto's new form. Killer bee and naruto aren't trying to master it. They can't without kyuubi. They are working around it, which is a bad idea.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Also, samehada is a living creature, it isn't completely made of steel, and becomes fleshy when fused with kisame. I would be suprised if he didn't do the damage he did, cause it should be the bare minimum someone should be capable of when main-lining bijuu chakra.


They were not fused, which was evident by the fact that Kisame did't look mutated.

Please stop making stuff up.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> He cannot anticipate it, but he CAN see it.


What difference does it make?!



dark messiah verdandi said:


> You are right, he says he cannot anticipate the chakra.
> But he also says why right before. It has a mind of its own, and even though naruto moves, it moves in a different direction. That is WHY he can't anticipate it.


He cannot anticipate. Sasuke has no way of knowing that he Kyuubi is controlling it, merely that it moves without physical input from Naruto.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> The anticipation requires one to tell the subtle movements in the chakra by peering into the body and recording movements.


No it doesn't. When was this stated?



dark messiah verdandi said:


> The problem with RM, is that it isn't a cloak. It is the chakra in naruto's body, not ON naruto's body. The cloak is similar to amaterasu, as it rests on top of the body.


What differences it make if the prediction is based on "peering at Chakra"?



dark messiah verdandi said:


> In the bijuu aura mode, naruto shapes the chakra through shape manipulation, which the sharingan can see clearly.


Manga source?



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Naruto can't attack twice in one hit. He has one consciousness working, thus one method of attack.


So B can attack with six words, which Sasuke cannot anticipate, but Naruto can't possble do two things at the same time?



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Bee can let hachibi take partial control, thus can do multiple actions at the same time.[/quote[
> Making stuff up again. There is no indication Hachibi was in control of anything when B speedblitzed Sauce.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Jeαnne (Mar 22, 2011)

the boost against madara will be bring sasuke to his side


----------



## Bart (Mar 22, 2011)

Harry's Invisibility Cloak, perhaps? 

But I suppose it may have something to do with EMS (wasn't there one technique left) or perhaps even his form of Susano-o :WOW


----------



## vagnard (Mar 22, 2011)

Most likely an in-battle power up to make the fight more dramatic. So Naruto will start the battle being clearly inferior to Madara then thanks to the power up of love he will beat him.


----------



## SageRafa (Mar 22, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Then I gave up. Because you're clearly a blindf fanboy fond of *ignoring manga evidence* and *making random stuff up* to support your case.



Exactly this , I don't know how you guys have so much patience to debate against made up arguments and fanfic stories xD

And it's pretty much obvious that with this power-up the only ones that can * possibly* win against Naruto are EMS Sasuke and Kabuto and the one who can beat him is Madara .. Naruto chakra arms can't be predicted by sharingan , Sasuke already said it , denying it it's stupid and fanbiased ..

 So the only way for Sasuke to not be stomped in a taijutsu battle against Naruto is utilizing Susano'o and or Amateratsu to protect itself or attack at long-range , that's why he need the EMS , to stop his blindness and for him to utilize his techs at the best condition possible , if Sasuke ,with it's EMS , is able to spam Amateratsu and Enton-manipulation without hurting nothing than his chakra-supply it'll be a batlle between "monsters" ..

 Sasuke spamming Amateratsu at long-range , Naruto covering distances dodging Amateratsu , and them Naruto utilizes chakra claws to attack at long-range too , Sasuke have to bring partial Susano'o to block , then it's Rasendama and Sasuke brings full Susano'o with Itachi's mirror and at the end Naruto could possibly talk to the kyyubi telling him that if they don't cooperate they're going down and the end *should* be Naruto Bijuu Mode Full 9-tails transformation vs Sasuke's ultimate Susano'o and/or EMS new tech ( probably Izanami or something ) ...


----------



## Adagio (Mar 22, 2011)

RM cloak and EMS were introduced roughly at the same time to the main characters. Its obvious that they are roughly equal powerups. 

The deciding factor, always was, and always will be, Itachi's gift.


----------



## freetgy (Mar 22, 2011)

i think that jutsu is RM Sensing ability.
i mean feeling negative emotions? ultimate counter to madaras time warp ability.

Conan already proved he is not invincible in that phase mode.
you just need an ability to counter it 
(minato had his teleport obviously)
Naruto has got that + Sensing ability = win


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> They were not fused, which was evident by the fact that Kisame did't look mutated.
> 
> Please stop main stuff up.
> 
> What difference does it make?!


Uh... kisame wasn't fused with samehada?

What would one call That?

Also, what is wrong with the term main-lining?
It is a form of doping in which naruto invigorates himself with kyuubi chakra.
That is what the aura mode is. thus he is main-lining chakra into his body.




> He cannot anticipate. Sasuke has no way of knowing that he Kyuubi is controlling it, merely that it moves without physical input from Naruto.


He cannot. I agreed to that. But seeing and anticipation are two different things.

And, he didn't have to know.
It was a guess, and he guessed right. 
The chakra DOES/did have a mind of it's own.





> No it doesn't. When was this stated?






> What differences it make if the prediction is based on "peering at Chakra"?


Oh, he can't use movement prediction, but movement tracking makes sure he doesn't loose sight of it, and can see it clearly. The prediction helps a lot, but the sharingan has other uses of it's observation. It can see extremely fast moving things as well, thus can counter occordingly even without the movement prediction.

Since naruto is doing one thing at a time, sasuke who can see faster than naruto, can anticipate his movements even without movement prediction. HE Will just do it the old fashioned way, albeit with a keener eye than most.




> Manga source?











> So B can attack with six words, which Sasuke cannot anticipate, but Naruto can't possble do two things at the same time?


Bee's swords didn't have chakra, were being juggled and moved in different directions all at once, and came from weird angles.
It isn't that the sharingan doesn't see these things, its that having to react to some of them is outside of the sharingan's perview.
This has been noted time and time again.

The sharingan can see damn near anything if enough chakra is used, but it does not change the body's reflexes, it just increases the data flow of  optical neural signals. It can see faster, but that does nothing for the other muscles in the body.




> Making stuff up again. There is no indication Hachibi was in control of anything when B speedblitzed Sauce.


I was actually talking about the partial manipulation of limbs and the chakra cloak. Also, a complete jinchuuriki has complete control, so he can reintroduce the bijuu into the chakra at will or remove it.

Thus using rari atto was something bee did, but sometimes when he creates chakra meat he can give the reigns to hachibi.

1) He didn't even get hit. Stop talking out of your tuchas.
2) It does not matter what the cloak was. Sasuke could not anticipate its movements.
[/QUOTE]
look closer, he went flying.

Also, the reflexive punch is most dangerous because it isn't telegraphed.
That is what made naruto readable. Telegraph movements.
Since the chakra is sentient and self sustainable, it needs no body to move on its own, it just moves.

And it matters. It doesn't matter less because you say it doesn't.
RM is handicapped in the fact that naruto cannot manifest the tails for a cloak. Without the cloak, it is just raw energy, and without kyuubi, it is without someone to drive it.

The bijuu chakra mode is like driving your own bentley.
Yeah, it's yours now, but it's' just better to sit back and enjoy the ride. Let the best driver do the driving.



> Based on what manga evidence? Because we have pleny to show that he can.


Well, its moreso based on the human brain.
It can only focus on one thing at a time consciously. It can switch what it thinks about as soon as it decides, but "true multi-tasking" is contridictory. you can perform one action at a time, task-juggling is a better way to describe what you are thinking about.





> What? Since when? Als, maybe *your* mind,





> "People can't multitask very well, and when people say they can, they're deluding themselves," said neuroscientist Earl Miller. And, he said, "The brain is very good at deluding itself."
> 
> Miller, a Picower professor of neuroscience at MIT, says that for the most part, we simply can't focus on more than one thing at a time.
> 
> ...






> But it's an extra weapon no one else but Naruto has.


That is fine, but it is not unconquerable.



> 1) Sasuke is not "1 millisecond" fast.
> 2 Who says there's going to be a delay?
> 
> Then I gave up. Because you're clearly a blindf fanboy fond of *ignoring manga evidence* and *making random stuff up* to support your case.



Sasuke doesn't have to be anymore.
He can use susano'o. It can nearly instantly manifest in a partial form, and it fully manifests very quickly. Everyone is forgeting about susano'o.
It is FAR better than naruto's use of hands presently and has a far more complicated shape.

Naruto isn't good at shape manipulation, so until he reintroduces kyuubi back into it's chakra, he won't have skillful partial manifestations.

Was that better?


----------



## SageRafa (Mar 22, 2011)

Naruto isn't good at shape manipulation ? are you mad ? Rasengan is a jutsu that utilizes SHAPE MANIPULATION AT ITS MAXIMUM and you come telling that Naruto isn't good at shape manipulation ? xD you could say he has poor chakra control but even that was just in the beggining of the series because I'm not seeing someone who can't control his chakras acquiring Sage Mode and I'm also not seeing someone that "isn't good" at shape manipulation adding NATURE MANIPULATION to the jutsu that requires the *maximum* Shape Manipulation and maintaining them both creating FRS...


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Naruto isn't good at shape manipulation ? are you mad ? Rasengan is a jutsu that utilizes SHAPE MANIPULATION AT ITS MAXIMUM and you come telling that Naruto isn't good at shape manipulation ? xD you could say he has poor chakra control but even that was just in the beggining of the series because I'm not seeing someone who can't control his chakras acquiring Sage Mode and I'm also not seeing someone that "isn't good" at shape manipulation adding NATURE MANIPULATION to the jutsu that requires the *maximum* Shape Manipulation and maintaining them both creating FRS...



You realize that he cannot perform a rasengan perfectly, right?
He uses clones to complete the jutsu, mixing the rotational energy for him, while he compresses the chakra.

Every other rasengan gets harder, thus needs more clones to perform.
Just because he uses rasengan doesn't mean he is good at it.
Also adding nature chakra was easy for three. It mixes itself in because it is the same chakra.

The problem was molding fuuton, then doing all the same stuff with the rasengan. Why? Because it was like looking left and right at the same time.
Yondaime was trying to do everything at once. Shouldering the burden, when you actually need help to finish the higher level rasengan.

What I was trying to explain to fallenangel. Multitasking is hard, if not impossible physically. Trying to juggle tasks is hard to do seamlessly with jutsu as well, since they require mental focus and spiritual energy.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 22, 2011)

I'll only address two points of yours, *verdandi*, since you're so frustratingly wrong on every single point I can't be arsed to reply to everything you say.

You call that manga page Sasuke anticipating Naruto's movemets by peering at his chakra network? Pft.

Multitasking is hard and close to impossible? Because *one* scientist says so? Cannot be done in Narutoverse? Sasori and Chiyo disagree.


----------



## vjpowell (Mar 22, 2011)

I think that Sage Mode Naruto should fight evenly with Mangekyou Sharingan Sasuke. If Naruto is to fight evenly with Madara he first needs to be able to hit him and the only thing that I could see is that Naruto learns Minato's teleporation Jutsu that he used to hurt Madara. So far he and Konan are the only ones who have done great damage towards him and the one that seem most effective is Minato's teleportation.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 22, 2011)

Hey
I'm gonna do a comparison in the power levels in Sasuke and Naruto including the counters each have in oneanother's arsenals to show why they might be equal and *the things that would make him equal to Madara which the majority of you are not discussing, lol. Here I go.*

1. Base Naruto and Sasuke
Base Naruto can create 2000+ clones. With those clones he can transform himself or them into anything he choses e.g a kunai or even another jutsu e.g FRS(Pain fight) Also, he can use them to force opponents to show them what they are capable of without him(the original) having to rush in and get into trouble e.g The Kakuzu fight. Now then comes his other Jutsu, the Rasengan. With those 2000+ clones he can create 1000+ Rasengans and Greatball Rasengans but cannot create FRS cause the chakra loss would exhaust the original too much. Rasengan also is a powerful counter to Katons and suitons because of its high rotation which Negates Katons that may come into contact with it and push back suitons. But not all Katons and suitons can be countered with it e.g Suitons that cut and Katons that covers larger areas BUT the large scale Suitons and Katons can be pushed back thanks to the Wind release Rasengan(not FRS I must note).
He can also summon Gamabunta along with Shima and Fukasaku who will help him greatly in sensing, distraction, genjutsu and Suiton, Katon and Fuuton jutsu combinations while gamabunta can help him to cover large areas quickly and use Suiton Gunshots to also help negate Katons. 

Base Sasuke now has the mighty Sharingan which vastly increases his perception, give him prediction capabilities of things in his line of sight and allows him to see chakra, this can help him see if anything thrown at him is a transformed clone or not BUT if the transformed clone is something THAT is made of chakra e.g FRS, then he CAN be fooled. He also has superb kenjutsu capabilities and can channel lightening into it, greatly increasing his cutting capabily which is bad for Naruto BUT if Naruto classes the sword with a Kunai that has channeled Fuuton into it, the Raiton blade should be negated(tell me if Im wrong) or even clashing the Raiton blade with a Wind release: Rasengan should definitely negate it. That should be fact. We all know his counter to chidori but now, if Naruto add wind to his Rasengan then he should definitely have a huge advantage over Sasuke if they clash. But now we have his chidori variants which gives him a quick advantage. Chidori current can be bad for Naruto if he gets caught in it but a scenario of escape should be to create some clones to push Sasuke back for a while so he can catch himself or go into Sage mode(Note: This is just a possible scenario) but either way, this could be bad for Naruto no matter how much I slice it, lol. ONWARD...chidori senbon should be countered by Substiution or Shadow clones to tank the attack and finally chidori sharp spear which can also be countered by shadow clones if Naruto reacts fast enough but either way, Sasuke has a bigger advantage here.
Base Sasuke also has Katons of high rank but we've also seen Naruto can counter it with Rasengan(rooftop fight) or if he has any of his summon out, they are proficient enough in Suiton to help him counter.

As for genjutsu, Naruto can either go into Sage mode which mixes up his chakra to a new form to negate it or go into RM which would stop HIS chakra and then give a sudden BURST in chakra which is the basics of cancelling Genjutsu( correct me if Im wrong).

2. Sage mode+ RM Naruto and MS/EMS Sasuke
Sage mode Naruto seems to overwhelm MS Sasuke IMO. Sasuke's jutsus still remain in base, no big change there so anything Naruto couldve just countered before he can now OVERWHELM Sasuke with e.g A Sage Art Great ball Rasengan would negate any Katon sent frontal to Naruto with ease. Naruto does not have a counter to Amaterasu(Super speed is not a direct counter, its just a dodge) so if Naruto gets caught by it, a simple substitution jutsu should help him, A large scale Shadow clone jutsu should easily block it and RM Naruto can dodge it. But IMO, going on the offensive would be the smartest thing to do which make Sasuke have to STOP using it e.g Hurling a FRS at Sasuke would make him activate Susanoo and stop the Amaterasu. But yet again, no matter how I slice it, Sasuke has an advantage here. Tsukyomi could mess him up but once he has Shima and Fuka with him, I LOL at it. So no problem there. As for Susanoo...unless Sasuke uses full or V2 Susanoo(one with full muscle) Sage Mode Naruto ALONE would push him back to the wall, esspecially if Naruto goes crazy with all his clones like he did with Kyuubi. Susanoo with those arrows...Sasuke wont even know who is the real one, they take a while to aim and develop too and if Naruto uses a Sage art: RASENGANTARENGAN from all directions....oh boy...Plus tanking 3 Rasenshuriken wont be easy work. But hey, its Susanoo the ultimate defense, lol. It would be bad IF Sasuke gets Yata mirror but that doesnt cover the entire Susanoo...we're yet to see how tough the armor ALONE is and Im sure a Rasengantarengan with a Rasenshuriken or 2 could do the trick. But then Naruto has Kyuubi chakra mode. He can use his chakra arms to stop Susanoo from moving its arms then use two more arms to form the Tailed beast bomb and then blast it right in Susanoo's back or something which should crack it up *I SUPPOSE*
But seriously though, if Sasuke doesnt use Susanoo above bone form against Sage Mode Naruto he IS screwed.

And this has been my comparison for Naruto and Sasuke  I'll do Madara later when I think up shit.


----------



## cnorwood (Mar 22, 2011)

wait wait wait, sm naruto>>MS sasuke. can anyone tell me what sasuke has done to put him self around peins level? was it getting his ass whopped by bee? or maybe it was getting saved by garra, before the raikage was about to smash his skull in. maybe it was almost loosing to danzo before karin told him the sharingan were closing when he was using inzangi. 

face it, sasuke is nothing without help. sm naruto was fighting pretty good with pein


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Well, we have not seen the first raikage so that is impossible to say.
> Along with feats is capability. If a character has potential for work, then it can act in such a way.
> 
> Rikudou sennin had the sharingan, rin'negan, senju stamina, and a bound juubi. All of that is fact. He used both senju and uchiha powers to the fullest. Fact.
> ...




Yet RM Narruto has no capacity. Yeah you have no credibility. Your argument relies on hypocritical double standards (EMS=NO feats yet>>>>>RM Naruto that has feats). Sorry but with such intense bias you cannot formulate a coherent argument.




dark messiah verdandi said:


> Its not the jutsu that have a problem being diagonal, it is the styles.
> When you can't use more than one style at a time, and each gives you a limit on the jutsu you can use, it creates a problem of efficiency.
> 
> Base, sage and kyuubi are all incompatible as of now.
> ...



So you are pretty much making up fanfiction? More diagonal/horizonal fanfic? Again would you mind not making stuff up to formulate an argument and actually make a good argument? That could be too hard for you though I guess. Sasuke was said to be a dragon king? Naruto was said to be a rook? More fanfiction. Sorry but you have no credibility when all you can do is make up stuff. Sasuke is horizontal and Naruto is diagonal? See? Making up shit with no backing is pretty easy. Try harder or something.

Yeah buddy it is fanfiction. Sasuke=dragon king? Said in manga? DB? Fanbook? Artbook? No? Then you have no argument.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Okay.
> Since the fight happened after the third databook, there is not printed information that such a thing is from the mouth of kishi. (doesn't mean it isn't true. Sasuke turned the sharingan on, and hit danzo
> square in the heart, a calculated action, which could only be done if the heart was visible, or at least the kirakakukei, which is seen by the sharingan.
> 
> ...



Lol or Sasuke knows the basic human body? People do not need sharingans to know where the heart is. Oh and him using the sharingan to see a heart=/=MS being superior to sharingan in observation. 

Everything else is fanfiction. It has no backing by any interviews, Databooks, manga statements, or character statements. Using Mangekyou jutsu deteriorates. Nothing said it uses mroe chakra than normal sharingan for sheer activation. More fabrications.


----------



## Odlam (Mar 22, 2011)

Sasuke + Naruto will fight Madara together is what I'm betting


----------



## Spanktastik (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> He can't use any of his old techniques, and is failing at the bijuu rasengan right now.
> 
> Meanwhile, KN1 naruto already made a bijuu rasengan during the valley of the end, and did it like nothing.
> 
> ...



First of all I am completely awake and it seems you are the one dreaming cause I never said Sage mode is a bad mode. Sage mode is an amazing mode and with Pa and Ma in theory being able to fuse with Naruto right now it should be an huge power up. But thats a topic we dont have to get in to.

However Naruto's Kyuubi training isnt even finished yet and you are anxiously looking for signs of Naruto getting a bad power up. I see you are not a Naruto basher but you are a huge pessimist. 

Bijuu dama is nothing else as a rasengan in human form utilizing tailed beast chakra. Because of him being quite the novice in using Bijuu mode like this he cannot use jutsu properly. Which is what he is improving on now. I know its a hard to believe concept if you relate everything to Uchiha's who master new jutsu on a whim. 

And so far his trainings arc didnt pay-off till the very end of them. Infact this new training has quite the similarities with SM training. 

Everyone ( minus uchiha) goes through this process, Naruto is the strongest out of the rookies by farrrrr ( except for his equal Sasuke). He learned fuuton faster then Kakashi expected and was commented to learn SM at a faster rate then Jiraiya ( quite a good ninjutsu user with a vast arsenal) and in the end even gained a greater mastery of SM. It just seems he is the only one that goes through this process cause infact we dont get detailed TRAINING ARCS that elaborate on how fodder characters gain jutsu. The only one we could slightly compare him with is Sasuke, who doesnt train ever since gaining lol MS. 

Also if he is that bad at learning and that nerfed, how come he is one of the strongest shinobi around? I think cause you disregard the other side of the medal.

In essence, you are whining about an incomplete training. Also you keep going on about him not being able to go full Kyuubi. You saw what happened to full Hachibi right? If you use Bijuu mode like Bee does, in essence you are just as strong as the Bijuu you are using and you cannot use any jutsu at all. 

Also notice Bee and the Hachibi were no partners at the beginning of his training either. 

Most people notice the flaws, yet some of us are so focussed on them in their narrow views that they lose sight of the bigger picture. However Naruto = Sasuke, Senju=Uchiha and I know Naruto in the past always was had the tendency to be alot stronger when showing the fruits of his training compared to his strenght during training sessions.

I'll just wait for the final fight and we will see how BAD he gets OWNED. Something tells me chidori eisu, shunshin and sharingan 3 tomes isnt gonna cut it for Sasuke.

Anyway im bored with this, apperantly Naruto SUCKS balls and is weaker then Sasuke as a genin. Well if thats what you believe , stop posting about how frustrated you are with Naruto's learning capabilities. HE SIMPLY SUCKS SO HE WILL NEVER BE A DECENT SHINOBI. Stop posting about it, we get it you think Naruto is a bad Shinobi.


----------



## Spanktastik (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> He can't use any of his old techniques, and is failing at the bijuu rasengan right now.
> 
> Meanwhile, KN1 naruto already made a bijuu rasengan during the valley of the end, and did it like nothing.
> 
> ...



First of all I am completely awake and it seems you are the one dreaming cause I never said Sage mode is a bad mode. Sage mode is an amazing mode and with Pa and Ma in theory being able to fuse with Naruto right now it should be an huge power up. But thats a topic we dont have to get in to.

However Naruto's Kyuubi training isnt even finished yet and you are anxiously looking for signs of Naruto getting a bad power up. I see you are not a Naruto basher but you are a huge pessimist. 

Bijuu dama is nothing else as a rasengan in human form utilizing tailed beast chakra. Because of him being quite the novice in using Bijuu mode like this he cannot use jutsu properly. Which is what he is improving on now. I know its a hard to believe concept if you relate everything to Uchiha's who master new jutsu on a whim. 

And so far his trainings arc didnt pay-off till the very end of them. Infact this new training has quite the similarities with SM training. 

Everyone ( minus uchiha) goes through this process, Naruto is the strongest out of the rookies by farrrrr ( except for his equal Sasuke). He learned fuuton faster then Kakashi expected and was commented to learn SM at a faster rate then Jiraiya ( quite a good ninjutsu user with a vast arsenal) and in the end even gained a greater mastery of SM. It just seems he is the only one that goes through this process cause infact we dont get detailed TRAINING ARCS that elaborate on how fodder characters gain jutsu. The only one we could slightly compare him with is Sasuke, who doesnt train ever since gaining lol MS. 

In essence, you are whining about an incomplete training. Also you keep going on about him not being able to go full Kyuubi. You saw what happened to full Hachibi right? If you use Bijuu mode like Bee does, in essence you are just as strong as the Bijuu you are using and you cannot use any jutsu at all. 

Most people notice the flaws, yet some of us are so focussed on them in their narrow views that they lose sight of the bigger picture. 

I will just wait for the final fight and we will see how BAD he gets OWNED. Something tells me chidori eisu, shunshin and sharingan 3 tomes isnt gonna cut it for Sasuke.


----------



## Nuzents (Mar 22, 2011)

I hate all this talk, Naruto said that stuff because he is still on Sasuke's genitals.  Hell, Zetsu thought he may be stronger than Sasuke, though I agree with most that Sasuke with complete Susano'o should be able to beat SM Naruto though it would be a hard battle.  I don't think it would be a cake walk for Sasuke but he should come out on top.  

Now, with RM Naruto and EMS Sasuke, Sasuke should be superior, but I think Naruto will find a way to win the battle.  He may get another skill before they fight that will give him a slight edge.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 22, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> Yet RM Narruto has no capacity. Yeah you have no credibility. Your argument relies on hypocritical double standards (EMS=NO feats yet>>>>>RM Naruto that has feats). Sorry but with such intense bias you cannot formulate a coherent argument.


So what is the capacity that puts him at the same teir?
Strength? speed? Is that it?





> So you are pretty much making up fanfiction? More diagonal/horizonal fanfic? Again would you mind not making stuff up to formulate an argument and actually make a good argument? That could be too hard for you though I guess. Sasuke was said to be a dragon king? Naruto was said to be a rook? More fanfiction. Sorry but you have no credibility when all you can do is make up stuff. Sasuke is horizontal and Naruto is diagonal? See? Making up shit with no backing is pretty easy. Try harder or something.


They are pieces in shogi 
You keep hollering fanfiction when all it is is personal analysis. I can have an opinion can't I?



> Yeah buddy it is fanfiction. Sasuke=dragon king? Said in manga? DB? Fanbook? Artbook? No? Then you have no argument.


That wasn't an arguement. I can't argue an opinion.

Who gives a shit if it's fanfiction. It makes since so I can say it. IF all we did was listen to canon statements by kishi, there would be no need for this site. We would all buy our volumes of naruto from the store, not reading it on-line



sanji's left eye said:


> Lol or Sasuke knows the basic human body? People do not need sharingans to know where the heart is. Oh and him using the sharingan to see a heart=/=MS being superior to sharingan in observation.


and he hit it square, right through karin?
He is better in your opinion than he is in mine.



> Everything else is fanfiction. It has no backing by any interviews, Databooks, manga statements, or character statements. Using Mangekyou jutsu deteriorates. Nothing said it uses mroe chakra than normal sharingan for sheer activation. More fabrications.


So, mangekyou takes no extra chakra to activate?



Spanktastik said:


> First of all I am completely awake and it seems you are the one dreaming cause I never said Sage mode is a bad mode. Sage mode is an amazing mode and with Pa and Ma in theory being able to fuse with Naruto right now it should be an huge power up. But thats a topic we dont have to get in to.
> 
> However Naruto's Kyuubi training isnt even finished yet and you are anxiously looking for signs of Naruto getting a bad power up. I see you are not a Naruto basher but you are a huge pessimist.


Learning the bijuu dama was the final lesson from bee. The bijuu dama rasengan was suggested after they were about to give up.
So, it's over after he masters it, even if he doesn't master the kyuubi.




> Bijuu dama is nothing else as a rasengan in human form utilizing tailed beast chakra. Because of him being quite the novice in using Bijuu mode like this he cannot use jutsu properly. Which is what he is improving on now. I know its a hard to believe concept if you relate everything to Uchiha's who master new jutsu on a whim.


It's not that, It's just that naruto always takes one step forward, and ends up two back. It isn't his fault, but I hate his fate.



> And so far his trainings arc didnt pay-off till the very end of them. Infact this new training has quite the similarities with SM training.
> 
> Everyone ( minus uchiha) goes through this process, Naruto is the strongest out of the rookies by farrrrr ( except for his equal Sasuke). He learned fuuton faster then Kakashi expected and was commented to learn SM at a faster rate then Jiraiya ( quite a good ninjutsu user with a vast arsenal) and in the end even gained a greater mastery of SM. It just seems he is the only one that goes through this process cause infact we dont get detailed TRAINING ARCS that elaborate on how fodder characters gain jutsu. The only one we could slightly compare him with is Sasuke, who doesnt train ever since gaining lol MS.


But I hate traning arcs 



> Also if he is that bad at learning and that nerfed, how come he is one of the strongest shinobi around? I think cause you disregard the other side of the medal.


He does have a lot of boons granted by his parents and associates.
Had he not the support system he does, he wouldn't have succeeded.




> In essence, you are whining about an incomplete training. Also you keep going on about him not being able to go full Kyuubi. You saw what happened to full Hachibi right? If you use Bijuu mode like Bee does, in essence you are just as strong as the Bijuu you are using and you cannot use any jutsu at all.


Since when can't jinchuuriki use jutsu in their final forms?
GAARA :gaara



> Also notice Bee and the Hachibi were no partners at the beginning of his training either.
> 
> Most people notice the flaws, yet some of us are so focussed on them in their narrow views that they lose sight of the bigger picture. However Naruto = Sasuke, Senju=Uchiha and I know Naruto in the past always was had the tendency to be alot stronger when showing the fruits of his training compared to his strenght during training sessions.


I was basically fighting against the notion that naruto AS OF NOW, could not beat sasuke. The future is something I have no knowledge of.



> I'll just wait for the final fight and we will see how BAD he gets OWNED. Something tells me chidori eisu, shunshin and sharingan 3 tomes isnt gonna cut it for Sasuke.
> 
> Anyway im bored with this, apperantly Naruto SUCKS balls and is weaker then Sasuke as a genin. Well if thats what you believe , stop posting about how frustrated you are with Naruto's learning capabilities. HE SIMPLY SUCKS SO HE WILL NEVER BE A DECENT SHINOBI. Stop posting about it, we get it you think Naruto is a bad Shinobi.


Actually, you were the first to actually tackle what I said.
+reps. I couldn't really disagree.

SEE EVERYONE? THAT IS HOW YOU PARTICIPATE A DISCUSSION.
Also, naruto is a good shinobi. I like him. I just don't like how kyuubi ruins EVERYTHING nowadays, and waiting for naruto to actually master the damn thing.

Unmastered, it is just a hinderance, the point I was trying to make.

And, sasuke is still a genin.


Finally, I don't think there will be ownage.
While the Bijuu chakra mode is hardly enough to tackle sasuke, as naruto set out for full mastery, he will undeniably get something else to bring him closer to scale.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> and he hit it square, right through karin?
> He is better in your opinion than he is in mine.
> 
> 
> So, mangekyou takes no extra chakra to activate?



Yeah. For a trained killer to know where the heart is on a person is not unbelievable. 

Correct.


----------



## joshhookway (Mar 22, 2011)

lol this thread has become a battleground

Anyways, Naruto will always be the strongest character. He has the power of .............

MAIN CHARACTER NO JUTSU


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 22, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> So what is the capacity that puts him at the same teir?
> Strength? speed? Is that it?
> 
> 
> ...


Ninjutsu, fighting attributes, etc. EMS Sasuke has the capacity? Nope. He has shown nothing using your fallacious argument. Ah but of course that won't apply to Sasuke for you.

Anyone can have a personal analysis. The problem begins when the personal analysis involves ignoring manga fact and making up things to make one's favorite character look so good although I never really did get the reason for it since its not like it makes the person better but I digress.

Yes you can. All people pretty much have are opinions. People argue their opinions all of the time. Ever watched CNN? Seen a court case? A debate team perhaps? With comments like that, you clearly do not understand what you are talking about.

Cool admitting it is fanfiction. Concession accepted.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 23, 2011)

*dark messiah verdandi*

I find several of your claims to be a bit.... sketchy at best. Not fully wrong, but I don't believe you are seeing both sides of the argument, nor do I believe you are aware of the implications that you claims come with. Your first claim, that the Mangekyo takes more chakra to be active is untrue. 

Kakashi uses Kamui and appears to marginally exhausted.
It's still active here.
A few pages later, it is still active.
More pages pass, and that design looks like the Mangekyou.
Tons more pages pass, and it is still active.
Kakashi wouldn't have the Mangekyou active if it actively draining his chakra in higher proportion than having the base Sharingan active. Aftere all, he can activate his Sharingan and use Kamui instantly. There would be no point in just having it active. 

Your next claim, that the Mangekyou increases visual perception, is somewhat untrue. The reverse argument could be made with much more substantial evidence. If simply possession of the Mangekyou Sharingan causes the erosion of eyesight, then why would activating it bolster vision? It wouldn't, because there is no indication that MS bolsters visual perception. 

Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that it damages vision? After all, whatever techniques/abilities the Mangekyou has granted users usually comes at a price, which appears to be damaged vision. However, we know that activation of the Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't damage the user's vision, or else Kakashi wouldn't have had it on for nearly two chapters.

Secondly, feats counteract this theory. Sasuke was able to keep up with V1 Raikage. However, with his Mangekyou active, he was unable to follow his movements, so much so that he was caught off guard. There's nothing showing that MS increases visual perception. 

Now, if you were to say EMS did? I would probably agree with you. It is a fusion of his eyes and Itachi's eyes, and not just the MS. Logically, his base Sharingan should increase in strength. Speculation, true, but I believe it has enough of a foundation in the manga. It also makes sense. Increase in base Sharingan would allow him to fight on par with RM Naruto, who he is clearly unable to follow with his level of eyes. 

Your vertical/diagnal hypthesis is likewise, somewhat untrue. Sasuke expands his fighting style, and gets it to adjust by adding new jutsu, improving old jutsu, etc. Thus, he is constantly progressing. Naruto, however, is different. He too is constantly progressing. His base is considerably stronger now than it was in the beginning of Part 2. However, as Rosencrantz said, he has different styles of fighting: Base, Senjutsu, RM. Each one is unique, and has different advantages/disadvantages. These advantages/disadvantages cover one another. As he appears to be able to switch activate RM and Senjutsu relatively quickly, he can chose which is needed for whatever situation. A combination may also be possible.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 23, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> Ninjutsu, fighting attributes, etc. EMS Sasuke has the capacity? Nope. He has shown nothing using your fallacious argument. Ah but of course that won't apply to Sasuke for you.


He has but one trait in his capacity.
He doesn't go blind. That is all he needs. This means he can use MS as little or as much as he needs, power it up with yin chakra, giving him higher chakra when focused, and have a significant amount of usage per battle.

That is phenomenal. Jutsu that he might not have used at larger amounts of potency, due to optical danger are fully capable to use.
That's all. Nothing gimicky about that,



> Anyone can have a personal analysis. The problem begins when the personal analysis involves ignoring manga fact and making up things to make one's favorite character look so good although I never really did get the reason for it since its not like it makes the person better but I digress.


When I was talking about the directional progress, that wasn't to make sasuke look better than naruto. In all intended purposes, being an uchiha is better than not being an uchiha, so I don't have to prove much.

It angers me that naruto's style is like that. I know he has problems learning sometimes, but is it too much to ask for three more jutsu? with anything else, he would be leagues stronger. It could be D-rank jutsu, but it would still make him far more dangerous, because naruto has access to excellent modes.

That is what stagnates his whole fighting style. Naruto has the capacity, but not the ability. His lack of regular jutsu aquisition just makes everything redundant, because he ends up using supplemental boosts all the time with nothing but KB and Rasengan.



> Yes you can. All people pretty much have are opinions. People argue their opinions all of the time. Ever watched CNN? Seen a court case? A debate team perhaps? With comments like that, you clearly do not understand what you are talking about.
> 
> Cool admitting it is fanfiction. Concession accepted.







Puppetry said:


> I find several of your claims to be a bit.... sketchy at best. Not fully wrong, but I don't believe you are seeing both sides of the argument, nor do I believe you are aware of the implications that you claims come with. Your first claim, that the Mangekyo takes more chakra to be active is untrue.
> 
> Kakashi uses Kamui and appears to marginally exhausted.
> It's still active here.
> ...


Alright. My misconception.
It's good to know.



> Your next claim, that the Mangekyou increases visual perception, is somewhat untrue. The reverse argument could be made with much more substantial evidence. If simply possession of the Mangekyou Sharingan causes the erosion of eyesight, then why would activating it bolster vision? It wouldn't, because there is no indication that MS bolsters visual perception.


Well, When using the sharingan, the eyes don't show the true damage, since it does increase your observatory prowress. Now that you have proven that the MS does not use chakra to sustain itself, it doesn't really hold, but since it is still a sharingan, having it on does improve your eyesight.

It wouldn't as MUCH, since it would be counter-productive. so As someone who wears glasses, I would say it's something like wearing old glasses. It's better than nothing at all, but it isn't the best it could be.

Itachi would be a good example. He kept his sharingan on because his eyesight started to fail. It is much worse in base, so having things like movement tracking and such are very useful.
Since the mangekyou can be kept on for longer amounts of time like you proved, then the risk of blindness without using the douryouku is sigificantly lowered.



> Wouldn't it make more sense to assume that it damages vision? After all, whatever techniques/abilities the Mangekyou has granted users usually comes at a price, which appears to be damaged vision. However, we know that activation of the Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't damage the user's vision, or else Kakashi wouldn't have had it on for nearly two chapters.


cool.



> Secondly, feats counteract this theory. Sasuke was able to keep up with V1 Raikage. However, with his Mangekyou active, he was unable to follow his movements, so much so that he was caught off guard. There's nothing showing that MS increases visual perception.


Actually the second proves that his EYES were able to keep up.
Sasuke didn't even have time to move his neck, but he knew that A was going for the sneak attack because he was looking at him anyway. That is why he used the enton.



> Now, if you were to say EMS did? I would probably agree with you. It is a fusion of his eyes and Itachi's eyes, and not just the MS. Logically, his base Sharingan should increase in strength. Speculation, true, but I believe it has enough of a foundation in the manga. It also makes sense. Increase in base Sharingan would allow him to fight on par with RM Naruto, who he is clearly unable to follow with his level of eyes.



I wouldn't say that.
It's just that at this point, sasuke can bolster his eyes, even in base with yin chakra. It seems that he actually pulls out chakra, not unlike The Ten no Juin, but with susano'o. This is speculative, but He had the same chakra wavelength as when he genjutsu'd Shii, and had a mangekyou backlash, even though it wasn't on. So either the power of yin is what creates susano'o or Susano'o is creating the Yin. I don't really know, but there is something there.

I don't think EMS changes any of the old jutsu.
They start of fresh, but the real boost is the lack of blindness, and the peculiar doujutsu that the transfer activates.



> Your vertical/diagnal hypthesis is likewise, somewhat untrue. Sasuke expands his fighting style, and gets it to adjust by adding new jutsu, improving old jutsu, etc. Thus, he is constantly progressing. Naruto, however, is different. He too is constantly progressing. His base is considerably stronger now than it was in the beginning of Part 2. However, as Rosencrantz said, he has different styles of fighting: Base, Senjutsu, RM. Each one is unique, and has different advantages/disadvantages. These advantages/disadvantages cover one another. As he appears to be able to switch activate RM and Senjutsu relatively quickly, he can chose which is needed for whatever situation. A combination may also be possible.



Hmm.

I feel it is moreso that sasuke simply retains what would Look like a style as a vestige. He can learn any jutsu, but not doing so is not realizing the depth of his own potential, and the capacity of his container.
That is the thing sasuke does wrong. He has a sharingan yet has not done like kakashi and learned everything under the sun.

Naruto really doesn't have that option of optimization. His styles while good, do not CURRENTLY mesh together. Everything is seperate because of kyuubi, and while he can do them all, he has to choose one or the other.

When using the bijuu chakra mode, it eats his chakra, so going into sage mode is an impossibility.

When In sage mode, he has to have a moment of peace and it only lasts five minutes.

When in base, he CANNOT use any of the higher modifications of his kage bunshin, or rasengan. He can use rasen cho tarengan, which is sweet as hell, but it just doesn't have that OOMPH that it does in other modes.


----------



## Bonds (Mar 23, 2011)

Odlam said:


> Sasuke + Naruto will fight Madara together is what I'm betting



This. People are too focused on individual power levels when the theme of the story has been from the very beginning *BONDS* and the power they can forge when one puts their faith in them. 

Naruto bringing Sasuke back to the good side will be what eventually leads to Madara's downfall, not some super-ultra rasengan jutsu


----------



## Omoi0714 (Mar 23, 2011)

I don't really have anything long to post in this thread because I'm just enjoying everyone's debating. But I just wanted to add that people assume that Sasuke still thinks and strategizes while he fights. As we've seen from his last couple fights he has taken Naruto's old approach to fighting and just charges in recklessly. Naruto on the other hand is becoming more strategic when he fights so I'm not exactly sure how the the fight would turn out. 

I do think its safe to say that SM Naruto=Ms Sasuke       RM Naruto= EMS Sasuke.


----------



## Bonds (Mar 23, 2011)

Omoi0714 said:


> I don't really have anything long to post in this thread because I'm just enjoying everyone's debating. But I just wanted to add that people assume that Sasuke still thinks and strategizes while he fights. As we've seen from his last couple fights he has taken Naruto's old approach to fighting and just charges in recklessly. Naruto on the other hand is becoming more strategic when he fights so I'm not exactly sure how the the fight would turn out.
> 
> I do think its safe to say that SM Naruto=Ms Sasuke       RM Naruto= EMS Sasuke.



I would agree but Sasuke showed in his fight with Danzou that he's still very much a strategist. However, he's not the same "cool under pressure" character he was in the past and is more prone to emotional outburst like Naruto is whenever he hears Sasuke's name. Only with Sasuke it's whenever he hears Itachi's.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 23, 2011)

Omoi0714 said:


> I don't really have anything long to post in this thread because I'm just enjoying everyone's debating. But I just wanted to add that people assume that Sasuke still thinks and strategizes while he fights. As we've seen from his last couple fights he has taken Naruto's old approach to fighting and just charges in recklessly. Naruto on the other hand is becoming more strategic when he fights so I'm not exactly sure how the the fight would turn out.
> 
> I do think its safe to say that SM Naruto=Ms Sasuke       RM Naruto= EMS Sasuke.



Sasuke is not much of a strategist, but a tactician.
He has a significant amount of knowledge, and understands chakra physics due to his sharingan, so he can come up with very interesting plans when fighting, and he usually covers all of his bases with contengiencies.

He wasn't even expecting to fight danzo, but he had a weapons seal, had a new summon, and displayed new uses of his power all the same. Just because he rages doesn't mean there is no clarity there.

Also, riddle me this... Do you think The bijuu chakra mode is stronger, or Sage mode. Mind you, Bijuu chakra mode does not activate naruto's body, it just swaps out his chakra for kyuubi's.

If Sage mode comes up as your answer, how can it = MS sasuke, when the less optimal kyuubi chakra mode = Ems Sasuke?





Bonds said:


> I would agree but Sasuke showed in his fight with Danzou that he's still very much a strategist. However, he's not the same "cool under pressure" character he was in the past and is more prone to emotional outburst like Naruto is whenever he hears Sasuke's name. Only with Sasuke it's whenever he hears Itachi's.



Agreed.
Sasuke has a really tender spot for itachi.
Makes him wanna kill. But I am not sure if that is because he wholly loves itachi right now, or if he still has resentment for what he did...


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 23, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Sasuke is not much of a strategist, but a tactician.
> He has a significant amount of knowledge, and understands chakra physics due to his sharingan, so he can come up with very interesting plans when fighting, and he usually covers all of his bases with contengiencies.
> 
> He wasn't even expecting to fight danzo, but he had a weapons seal, had a new summon, and displayed new uses of his power all the same. Just because he rages doesn't mean there is no clarity there.
> ...



What you mean it doesnt activate his body? Chakra consist of physical and spiritual energy so getting so much chakra is obviously gonna increase...your physical and spiritual energy, lol. They both have their advantages and disadvantages and you seem to only think Kyuubi chakra mode is the only one with a disadvantage. Guess what, they both have one crucial disadvantage in common and that is TIME. Naruto is gonna use Kyuubi chakra mode as a last resort. If he gets wounded badly he can just tap in and out of the chakra mode and heal up but current Naruto with Shima and Pa around has made his Sage mode arsenal very deadly. Shima and Pa have deadly frog techniques, they can touch Naruto to disrupt his chakra if he gets genjutsu'd and they have epic combination jutsus. Plus, Biju Rasengan WILL deactivate Full Susanoo. How do I know? Kirin made me know. If Naruto just by anychance...just Happens to be able to combine Sage chakra to it...oh my...Also, kirin didnt just deactivate Susanoo, it got to Itachi too(how else did he lose his Akatsuki cloak?) So yeah, Im giving Biju rasengan a shot at taking out Susanoo and maybe hurting Sasuke too. But if I was to compare...chakra arms should rival Sage mode Naruto in strength, his speed counters having need to be more durable against attacks and the arms yet again and biju ball owns every other jutsu in his Sage mode arsenal IMO.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 23, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Well, When using the sharingan, the eyes don't show the true damage, since it does increase your observatory prowress. Now that you have proven that the MS does not use chakra to sustain itself, it doesn't really hold, but since it is still a sharingan, having it on does improve your eyesight.
> 
> It wouldn't as MUCH, since it would be counter-productive. so As someone who wears glasses, I would say it's something like wearing old glasses. It's better than nothing at all, but it isn't the best it could be.
> 
> ...



Yes, Itachi's Sharingan is much more useful than his average eyes. His visual capabilities, however, are probably significantly weaker when compared with other Sharingan users. Something is better than nothing. 



> Actually the second proves that his EYES were able to keep up.
> Sasuke didn't even have time to move his neck, but he knew that A was going for the sneak attack because he was looking at him anyway. That is why he used the enton.



The second scan shows that his eyes were unable to keep up. Sasuke was completely unaware of the Raikage's position, so he used Enton to create an Amaterasu shield to coat the bones of Susanoo. Karin's comment supports this. Even though Sasuke was unable to keep, he actually managed to cover this weakness with Enton+Susanoo.

There is also another simple argument: As MS doesn't drain chakra from activation, why doesn't everyone simply use the MS to increase visual perception? Itachi already has the Sharingan active, so why wouldn't he just use MS to increase his vision? Same with Kakashi. Same with Sasuke. Why use base Sharingan when you can get enhanced vision for no extra chakra cost.



> I wouldn't say that.
> It's just that at this point, sasuke can bolster his eyes, even in base with yin chakra. It seems that he actually pulls out chakra, not unlike The Ten no Juin, but with susano'o. This is speculative, but He had the same chakra wavelength as when he genjutsu'd Shii, and had a mangekyou backlash, even though it wasn't on. So either the power of yin is what creates susano'o or Susano'o is creating the Yin. I don't really know, but there is something there.



I am currently undecided on Susanoo. Is it similar to the Curse Mark, the injures the body but gives one chakra? Sasuke's chakra has fluctuated, and become incredibly potent. Could this be because of the unique properties of Susanoo? I don't know. 



> I don't think EMS changes any of the old jutsu.
> They start of fresh, but the real boost is the lack of blindness, and the peculiar doujutsu that the transfer activates.



To me, it makes sense. The fusion of two MS should produce a stronger EMS, but it is also a fusion of Base Sharingan as well. I would say that the transfer would increase the potency of the old jutsu, especially Susanoo. This is supported by Sasuke's comment on feeling Itachi's power flowing into him. That comment wouldn't have made much sense if EMS was simply MS without blindness, as no real power would have been transferred.



> Hmm.
> 
> I feel it is moreso that sasuke simply retains what would Look like a style as a vestige. He can learn any jutsu, but not doing so is not realizing the depth of his own potential, and the capacity of his container.
> That is the thing sasuke does wrong. He has a sharingan yet has not done like kakashi and learned everything under the sun.
> ...



Sasuke has the potential for such powerful jutsu, I agree. I don't believe he could learn every jutsu (that is an attribute only the Rinnegan has and the Sharingan tries to imitiate) but he certainly has the potential to develop much more than what he actually is.

Naruto doesn't have that, in a sense, I suppose. There is nothing that removes his limitations concerning potential, except for one thing: determination, and a variety of fighting style. With Naruto, he has several different fighting styles, and he can use whichever one he needs. SM runs out? RM is there to replace it. RM runs out? SM is there to replace it. With this unique balance, Naruto is able to effectively stay in an enhanced state for the duration of other modes. 

These modes, however, are not fully developed. Naruto was previously working to improve SM, and his RM training is far from complete. However, once he masters these two modes? I doubt that Naruto is going to suddenly stop getting stronger. His determination, while not the best way to gauge potential, has pushed him into higher levels of power.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 23, 2011)

Just throw some negreps around and call it a day. Trying to reason with someone who won't see reason again and again is pretty much the very definition of insanity.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Just throw some negreps around and call it a day. Trying to reason with someone who won't see reason again and again is pretty much the very definition of insanity.



Where's the fun in that? Logically arguing against insanity, countering points, and an exchange of ideas is the only way to do this.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 23, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Where's the fun in that? Logically arguing against insanity, countering points, and an exchange of ideas is the only way to do this.


There comes a time when on must realize when one is talking to a brick wall.


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> There comes a time when on must realize when one is talking to a brick wall.



How dare you use the word brick in your sentence, and not even have the word "throwing" in the same sentence.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> There comes a time when on must realize when one is talking to a brick wall.



You're absolutely right. That is why we move to phase two, and demolish that wall.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 23, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Hey
> I'm gonna do a comparison in the power levels in Sasuke and Naruto including the counters each have in oneanother's arsenals to show why they might be equal and *the things that would make him equal to Madara which the majority of you are not discussing, lol. Here I go.*
> 
> 1. Base Naruto and Sasuke
> ...



*And now this will be my opinion as to what will make him just below or equal to Madara in the near future.*

1. Being capable to PERMANENTLY stay in Sage mode or capable of gathering nature energy while on the move. Why make Sage Naruto this overpowered? Well...because base Naruto SUCKS ASS against current Madara my friends. A power up like this is an absolute necessity ATM. Naruto having limited clones and such was to keep Naruto nerfed and TBH...give Sasuke a fighting chance. This is another thing I shall discuss....*SASUKE'S INFLUENCE ON NARUTO'S POWER LEVELS PLOT-WISE.* Naruto has wind affinity and has been hinted by many other manga scenes and facts that he may have a water affinity also. The reason he has not trained to become good and versatile in wind jutsus and even developing water affinity is because he would 100% own Sasuke. But why own? Oh you dont know? Wind > Raiton and Suiton > Katon. Its that simple. So IMO....after the final Naruto vs Sasuke fight, his power levels will _SKYROCKET_ and he will pass through one FINAL sensei...and that sensei could be...an *UZUMAKI.* (Ma and Pa could be the ones to help him with his wind and possible water techs...it cant be a coincidence that they BOTH have wind affinities, right?    *referring to Shima and Fukasaku)

An Uzumaki? Why? WELL..........Madara's greatest weakness seems to be sealing techniques and there currently seems that there is NO ONE else capable of teaching Naruto high-class sealing techs or should I say...there is no-one that has been SEEN using ALOT of sealing techs. Introducing an Uzumaki would be good for this job.(why did the bitch run from Danzo's suicide seal? lol) It was like even his intangibilty wouldve been useless and its been clearly shown in his fight with the Fourth how quick sealing techs owns his ass(and might I ADD, FTG requires a.......seal? :amazed) and plus if Naruto is supposed to develop his water affinity, and possibly learn a kekkai genkai, who else would be better to do it than a Uzumaki. Plus after the Naruto vs Sasuke fight...I dont see Madara just leaving Naruto there to gloat after he defeats Sasuke(assumption) he's gonna take the weakened Naruto and extract, that simple. And then with Kyuubi permantly/temporarily gone, he will need a new power-up.

2. "That jutsu" seems to require alot of chakra...maybe everything the Kyuubi's got. So thats why I think he's gonna keep something from the Kyuubi or...IDK...but Kyuubi is not gonna be lost forever from Naruto. Kyuubi = Sharingan for Sasuke. *THEY WILL NEVER TRULY PART* Even Kishi wanted Naruto to _BE_ the Kyuubi...so yeah, those two arent gonna part, lol.

3. It may very well be Naruto and Sasuke vs Madara and together, their powers together will be the equal for Madara but apart...they stand no chance. The whole story is circled around "bonds" so I see this happening.

So to sum up. To equal Madara Naruto will:
a.) Need to complete his final .Vs Sasuke fight which will allow plot to not limit him to being equal to Sasuke but move him up to *being equal to MADARA instead.*

b.) Him learning his heritage(Sealing techs) and truly learning his possible kekkai genkai(*which will make BASE NARUTO stronger*)

c.) Becoming a TRUE Sage and TRULY becoming one with Nature.

d.) Kishi keeping Sasuke relevant plot-wise and allowing him to help Naruto defeat Madara instead(which I think would Suck. Naruto is the main character, no need for Sasuke dammit)

Thats all I HAVE TO SAY.


----------



## Yuna (Mar 23, 2011)

When was it hinted at that Naruto possesses an affinity for water?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 23, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> When was it hinted at that Naruto possesses an affinity for water?



His Uzumaki symbol and well, where the clan came from(yes, where shinobi come from usually hints what abilities shinobis from the village have e.g Mist village Ninjas have Water jutsus MAINLY, Kumo- lightening,etc). It resembles a whirlpool and we both should know what natures would be needed to form a whirlpool. Well I guess its just my hunch to think he has water affinity, lol...blah blah and also...him aligning with frogs so many years. I know they arent big hints or anything but...they're hints. No problem if you dont agree, its just an assumption.


----------



## Tomcat171 (Mar 23, 2011)

^ Chakra paper says no.....

He doesn't have a natural affinity to water, but - as has been shown many, many times - one doesn't need to be born with an affinity to a certain element in order to use it, it'll just be harder and take longer to master.


----------



## Blackgallon (Mar 23, 2011)

Naruto will be able to take on Madara when he masters the S/T jutsus that Minato was capable of.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 23, 2011)

Tomcat171 said:


> ^ Chakra paper says no.....
> 
> He doesn't have a natural affinity to water, but - as has been shown many, many times - one doesn't need to be born with an affinity to a certain element in order to use it, it'll just be harder and take longer to master.



Oh thanks...lol...TBH I taught you needed an affinity to the Nature to do the technique...I feel noob-ish now...


----------



## Yuna (Mar 23, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Oh thanks...lol...TBH I taught you needed an affinity to the Nature to do the technique...I feel noob-ish now...


Kakashi being able to perform Raitons, Suitons and Dotons says "no". And that's just from what we're *seen*.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 23, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> What you mean it doesnt activate his body? Chakra consist of physical and spiritual energy so getting so much chakra is obviously gonna increase...your physical and spiritual energy, lol.


It's a by-product used by SPENDING your physical and spiritual energy.
Stamina+spirit= magic. However it must be first subtracted from the body.

Putting more magic in the body just makes it magical, but ACTIVATING your body with the magic, (which is called body flicker/shunshin) is what actually makes is strong, which is why naruto used shunshin in the first place.

Naruto still has a human body, noted by killer bee, so it still retains the vulnerabilities not usually held by jinchuuriki transformation. If naruto had used the jinchuuriki transformation technique, using shunshin would have just been even faster, since his body would be morphing closer to that of a demonic fox.



> They both have their advantages and disadvantages and you seem to only think Kyuubi chakra mode is the only one with a disadvantage. Guess what, they both have one crucial disadvantage in common and that is TIME. Naruto is gonna use Kyuubi chakra mode as a last resort. If he gets wounded badly he can just tap in and out of the chakra mode and heal up but current Naruto with Shima and Pa around has made his Sage mode arsenal very deadly.


You are right. Time is the biggest factor, which is why naruto has been looking for outside options besides sage mode, but asside from that, the disadvantages are little to none. Naruto has gotten the feel for it, which allows him to get the amount of senjutsu chakra just right.

And there is danger with kyuubi chakra as the last resort.
If naruto has 10% of his base chakra left, and takes out 10% of kyuubi's chakra, he is going to die. It eats the amount that you shelf, so it has to be used early in the fight.



> Shima and Pa have deadly frog techniques, they can touch Naruto to disrupt his chakra if he gets genjutsu'd and they have epic combination jutsus.


Surely enough. 



> Plus, Biju Rasengan WILL deactivate Full Susanoo. How do I know? Kirin made me know. If Naruto just by anychance...just Happens to be able to combine Sage chakra to it...oh my...Also, kirin didnt just deactivate Susanoo, it got to Itachi too(how else did he lose his Akatsuki cloak?) So yeah, Im giving Biju rasengan a shot at taking out Susanoo and maybe hurting Sasuke too.


I wouldn't exactly say that much. Itachi had the skeletal form of susano'o out. He had not fully manifested it, or yata's mirror, so it was weaker than sasuke's susano'o at that point.
Sasuke also has yata's mirror, so unless it is from a backwards angle, it could probably take it.

If it hits sasuke from the back??? he's probably gonna die.



> But if I was to compare...chakra arms should rival Sage mode Naruto in strength, his speed counters having need to be more durable against attacks and the arms yet again and biju ball owns every other jutsu in his Sage mode arsenal IMO.


All of the statements short of the bijuu ball rasengan are true.
That jutsu has not been shown to be able to actually be thrown, seeing how it is so dense that it crushes concrete when being made.

I would suspect that he holds it with his chakra arms if he can, and drives it into the target, since it would surely do significant damage on his own arms.

Because of that, the ability to use 10+ different senpou rasengan jutsu at a nearly instant mixing speed without having to focus so hard he has to look down makes it better IMO.




Puppetry said:


> Yes, Itachi's Sharingan is much more useful than his average eyes. His visual capabilities, however, are probably significantly weaker when compared with other Sharingan users. Something is better than nothing.


right.




> The second scan shows that his eyes were unable to keep up. Sasuke was completely unaware of the Raikage's position, so he used Enton to create an Amaterasu shield to coat the bones of Susanoo. Karin's comment supports this. Even though Sasuke was unable to keep, he actually managed to cover this weakness with Enton+Susanoo.



He looked backward, unless that happened after raikage stopped.
But even knowing where to look after he stopped implies that he was somewhat aware of his position. If he had completely lost him... he would have completely lost him.




> There is also another simple argument: As MS doesn't drain chakra from activation, why doesn't everyone simply use the MS to increase visual perception? Itachi already has the Sharingan active, so why wouldn't he just use MS to increase his vision? Same with Kakashi. Same with Sasuke. Why use base Sharingan when you can get enhanced vision for no extra chakra cost.


Right. that is what I mean.



> I am currently undecided on Susanoo. Is it similar to the Curse Mark, the injures the body but gives one chakra? Sasuke's chakra has fluctuated, and become incredibly potent. Could this be because of the unique properties of Susanoo? I don't know.


I think so. It seems to be an application.



> To me, it makes sense. The fusion of two MS should produce a stronger EMS, but it is also a fusion of Base Sharingan as well. I would say that the transfer would increase the potency of the old jutsu, especially Susanoo. This is supported by Sasuke's comment on feeling Itachi's power flowing into him. That comment wouldn't have made much sense if EMS was simply MS without blindness, as no real power would have been transferred.


There is a peculiar doujutsu that awakens after the transfer is made, which is probably the power he felt, aside from the eyes themselves having a different chakra pattern. It feels like itachi, because it is itachi. They can feel the energy of different chakra signatures, unlike normal humans, so they would actually feel the difference in a transplant.






> Sasuke has the potential for such powerful jutsu, I agree. I don't believe he could learn every jutsu (that is an attribute only the Rinnegan has and the Sharingan tries to imitiate) but he certainly has the potential to develop much more than what he actually is.



He can learn them all, but performing them all at perfection would be impossible. Chakra affinities only make performing jutsu easy, but the sharingan shows the user how to create the chakra nature.
When one doesn't have it It becomes difficult to use and perform for average people, but you don't need an affinity to perform any jutsu.




> Naruto doesn't have that, in a sense, I suppose. There is nothing that removes his limitations concerning potential, except for one thing: determination, and a variety of fighting style. With Naruto, he has several different fighting styles, and he can use whichever one he needs. SM runs out? RM is there to replace it. RM runs out? SM is there to replace it. With this unique balance, Naruto is able to effectively stay in an enhanced state for the duration of other modes.


That would take extremely efficient chakra management.
Outside looking in, it seems simple, but that is an idea that is advanced.
RM Would need to be used first since it eats chakra.
Using it last is a death sentence.



> These modes, however, are not fully developed. Naruto was previously working to improve SM, and his RM training is far from complete. However, once he masters these two modes? I doubt that Naruto is going to suddenly stop getting stronger. His determination, while not the best way to gauge potential, has pushed him into higher levels of power.



Bijuu dama is the last thing naruto is supposed to learn from bee. He said so himself. The training is over. The problem is at this point, the only person who can teach naruto about zan... ahem kyuubi is kyuubi.

And extending SM is impossible. It is a chemical reaction, which you can't stop by effort alone. The nature energy dissolves after five minutes of movement, just like gravity pulls things down. It is chakra physics.

I didn't say he would never beat sasuke, or that he would stop getting stronger, I just said that RM as is does not have what it takes to beat sasuke. It just doesnt.

He needs more. The thread asks what he needs to beat madara, but it is mostly the same thing.



I think if naruto were to beat sasuke he would need.

1. Kyuubi's ego tamed and knowledge of all the transformative modes.

That is the best way for naruto to get stronger. He is a jinchuuriki and NEEDS to commune with his bijuu. That is what makes him strong.
Doing such would most likely give naruto the best teacher to show him how to use the manipulations.

2. See if he can actually use the amphibian sage mode now.

3. Learn some more jutsu.
It could be as little as five, but those five would work wonders.

4. Learn more bunshin jutsu in particular.

5. Learn how to use chakra flow.

6. Get another giant scroll with cool stuff in it.

Then he is ready.


----------



## MS81 (Mar 23, 2011)

Naruto is somehow gonna get another power up either from Itachi's crow job or PNJ.


----------



## Saunion (Mar 24, 2011)

I don't understand Sasuke fappers, I really don't. Well yes, I understand that they're too busy fapping to Sasuke to understand common shonen tropes and basic storytelling, but still. 

Do you guys seriously believe that a blind chakraless Sasuke was stronger than SM Naruto? The same blind chakraless Sasuke who left himself open to motherfucking SAKURA? Do you genuinely believe the difference in power between Sasuke and Naruto, if there's any, is anything else than negligeable? Do you honestly think the final, or at least the most anticipated battle in the manga, will consist of Saucy-kins outrageously dominating a hapless Naruto? 

I understand the Oro's hideout reunion during the Penis arc was an orgasmic experience a lot of you still didn't get over, and somehow made you believe this kind of stupidity was going to be common occurence for the rest of the manga. Problem: a lot of things happend after that, like the Bee and Kage fight, the Pain invasion and Kyuubi control arcs. This isn't 2007 anymore. Your "Uchiha = God" trolling has been deflated. Stop trying so hard.


----------



## vagnard (Mar 24, 2011)

Genkidama Rasengan >> Madara


----------



## izanagi x izanami (Mar 24, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Do you guys seriously believe that a blind chakraless Sasuke was stronger than SM Naruto?


chakraless? scan?  yep because kishi says so....
Blind and Sick Itachi was way stronger than Hebi Sasuke(according to Zetsu Hebi Sasuke=<SM Naruto)


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 24, 2011)

Saunion said:


> I don't understand Sasuke fappers, I really don't. Well yes, I understand that they're too busy fapping to Sasuke to understand common shonen tropes and basic storytelling, but still.


I actually only fap to the female characters 
And naruko .

But good try. Try to understand this as well, even though all stories follow formulas, and NARUTO is hardly original, taking most of it's inspiration from the story of Abe no Seimei and the Jiraya Goketsu Monogatari, it is still unique, and has the ability to subvert standard tropes.





> Do you guys seriously believe that a blind chakraless Sasuke was stronger than SM Naruto? The same blind chakraless Sasuke who left himself open to motherfucking SAKURA? Do you genuinely believe the difference in power between Sasuke and Naruto, if there's any, is anything else than negligeable? Do you honestly think the final, or at least the most anticipated battle in the manga, will consist of Saucy-kins outrageously dominating a hapless Naruto?


Aside from your inherent disrespect for Sasuke, you are not thinking of your scenario clearly. Sasuke has all of his chakra restored as of now, and his eyes are nearly healed. 
Even if he took the bandages off now, he wouldn't go blind but feel pain due to the surgery.

He DOES have EMS, and does have a new doujutsu sitting on him right now.
Also, Sasuke got hit by sakura only because at that point, he was QUITE drained of chakra, and didn't have the idea to use amaterasu.

She could have been dead on the spot.

Finally, Who said it was the final battle? We aren't even at the apex of the manga. Do you really think kishi wouldn't be able to write after madara? Kubo entrapped Sousuke Aizen for 18,000 years and simply started writing about other shit.

What makes you think the uchiha story arc is the only one?
Naruto hasn't become hokage yet, and I could write at kishi's pace for another ten years getting him there. Then another ten with him actually doing the work and commanding others.





> I understand the Oro's hideout reunion during the Penis arc was an orgasmic experience a lot of you still didn't get over, and somehow made you believe this kind of stupidity was going to be common occurence for the rest of the manga. Problem: a lot of things happend after that, like the Bee and Kage fight, the Pain invasion and Kyuubi control arcs. This isn't 2007 anymore. Your "Uchiha = God" trolling has been deflated. Stop trying so hard.



It is hard with all of your original "sasucakes and penis" jokes to keep myself from keeling over and laughing. Damn, you are so clever and hillarious 

Actually, since it became 2010, we actually got proof that the living god, was actually half uchiha, so that would mean, sasuke by geneology is one of the closest living descendants of someone on the same scale as buddha/jesus

But, I am just arguing semantics. What the real arguement is, is that naruto, with his current capability to use kyuubi, does not have what it takes to actually create this "stomp", that you haters think is going to inevitably happen.

In fact, he doesn't think he will make it out alive, but has resolved himself to end all the east cost/west cost of konoha gang rivalry, by erasing the remaining uchiha and distant senju relatives.

Sasuke on the other hand, intends to live, so he wouldn't be giving up easily.
Also, with the nature of his powers, he very well wouldn't need to.

Kyuubi's chakra has no ego, thus naruto would be unable to even use it to resist genjutsu, since it can't act on it's own. For naruto to even stand a chance, he would need to be in control of kyuubi's ego.

Unless he can do that, he has no chance against sasuke, who could easily just manifest a susano'o grip on naruto, torch him with amaterasu, and go home.


PIS is the ONLY thing that would stop him from having willpower to instantly kill naruto.

Naruto COULD survive if he had perfect mastery of kyuubi, but he doesn't, so winning becomes... improbable




vagnard said:


> Genkidama Rasengan >> Madara


He could if a fuinjutsu expert was around.
Make a chakra circle (like in part 1, where the Otogakure ninja summoned the daija)
Use peoples yin chakra to power a rasengan made of love.
Destroy the evil within madara... profit.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 24, 2011)

Kyuubi may be angry now and stubborn but Naruto and Kyuubi well come to an agreement. Strong chance this agreement will occur during battle after Naruto's "apparent" defeat. Besides, whenever did Naruto go into battle having true "mastery" of anything he was training? lol. Example....Kabuto- Rasengan, Mizuki - Multishadow clone, Kakuzu- FRS. Its just a pattern TBH, just wait....


----------



## Yuna (Mar 24, 2011)

Ummm... Naruto had mastered Tajuu Kage Bunshin when he faced Mizuki.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 24, 2011)

Ok 
then.


----------



## Enclave (Mar 24, 2011)

Saunion said:


> I understand the Oro's hideout reunion during the Penis arc was an orgasmic experience a lot of you still didn't get over, and somehow made you believe this kind of stupidity was going to be common occurence for the rest of the manga. Problem: a lot of things happend after that, like the Bee and Kage fight, the Pain invasion and Kyuubi control arcs. This isn't 2007 anymore. Your "Uchiha = God" trolling has been deflated. Stop trying so hard.



Not to mention that when Naruto met Sasuke at Oro's hideout Naruto could barely stand let alone fight.  So it wasn't a fair representation of the difference in their strengths.


----------



## -ScRaTcH- (Mar 24, 2011)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I heard Itachi left Naruto a gift


----------



## Saunion (Mar 24, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I actually only fap to the female characters
> And naruko .
> 
> But good try. Try to understand this as well, even though all stories follow formulas, and NARUTO is hardly original, taking most of it's inspiration from the story of Abe no Seimei and the Jiraya Goketsu Monogatari, it is still unique, and has the ability to subvert standard tropes.



 Naruto doesn't take "most of its inspiration" from Japanese folklore, it takes its inspiration from shonen manga that came before it such as Dragonball, Hunter X Hunter or Slam Dunk. It's a pile of shonen tropes. That's all it is.




> Aside from your inherent disrespect for Sasuke, you are not thinking of your scenario clearly. Sasuke has all of his chakra restored as of now, and his eyes are nearly healed.
> Even if he took the bandages off now, he wouldn't go blind but feel pain due to the surgery.



Oh no I disrespected a fictional character. I'm so sorry.  Will you be alright? I'm kinda worried the shock was too brutal for you.

I have no idea what you're even replying to, as my initial question was adressed to these guys who seem to take Naruto's words after the Kage summit arc seriously and use them to argue Saucy is far stronger than Naruto. Point is: Naruto telling Neji he couldn't have defeated Sasuke was bullshit. End of.



> He DOES have EMS, and does have a new doujutsu sitting on him right now.
> Also, Sasuke got hit by sakura only because at that point, he was QUITE drained of chakra, and didn't have the idea to use amaterasu.
> 
> She could have been dead on the spot.



I don't care about any of that, you didn't even understand what I was talking about. 



> Finally, Who said it was the final battle? We aren't even at the apex of the manga. Do you really think kishi wouldn't be able to write after madara? Kubo entrapped Sousuke Aizen for 18,000 years and simply started writing about other shit.



I'm talking about the next Sasuke vs Naruto fight. It'll definitely be "the final, or at least the most anticipated battle in the manga". Again what the hell is your rebuttal even supposed to be? Learn to read.





> What makes you think the uchiha story arc is the only one?
> Naruto hasn't become hokage yet, and I could write at kishi's pace for another ten years getting him there. Then another ten with him actually doing the work and commanding others.



 No, the manga is clearly ending. If you can't even see that then it's hopeless.







> It is hard with all of your original "sasucakes and penis" jokes to keep myself from keeling over and laughing. Damn, you are so clever and hillarious



Yes, I understand that the fact I defiled Sasuke's sacred name is an unforgivable offense for you, but please don't cry too much.



> Actually, since it became 2010, we actually got proof that the living god, was actually half uchiha, so that would mean, sasuke by geneology is one of the closest living descendants of someone on the same scale as buddha/jesus



No actually we learned Uchiha were more like effeminate and boring spawns of Satan.



> But, I am just arguing semantics. What the real arguement is, is that naruto, with his current capability to use kyuubi, does not have what it takes to actually create this "stomp", that you haters think is going to inevitably happen.



That's not what your argument is at all. People thinking this'll be a stomp either way are idiots anyway.



> In fact, he doesn't think he will make it out alive, but has resolved himself to end all the east cost/west cost of konoha gang rivalry, by erasing the remaining uchiha and distant senju relatives.
> 
> Sasuke on the other hand, intends to live, so he wouldn't be giving up easily.
> Also, with the nature of his powers, he very well wouldn't need to.



I see. So because Sasuke "intends to live" that means he's stronger than Naruto.

This is absolutely pathetic. 



> Kyuubi's chakra has no ego, thus naruto would be unable to even use it to resist genjutsu, since it can't act on it's own. For naruto to even stand a chance, he would need to be in control of kyuubi's ego.
> 
> Unless he can do that, he has no chance against sasuke, who could easily just manifest a susano'o grip on naruto, torch him with amaterasu, and go home.



Of course, Sasuke could "easily" do that.

Is it easy to type with one hand?


> PIS is the ONLY thing that would stop him from having willpower to instantly kill naruto.
> 
> Naruto COULD survive if he had perfect mastery of kyuubi, but he doesn't, so winning becomes... improbable



If you start blabbering about PIS, then you have no argument. You lose. It's over. 

.


----------



## Csdabest (Mar 24, 2011)

Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke. Supposedl he saw what was in his mind. He probably was feeling the poison take effect. If that fight had continued. Team 7 would have died. Kakashi was beat. Naruto was about to pass out from poison. And sakura is trash.  No if ands or butts. Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke.  I don't know what's sooo hard to beleive


----------



## Mr Horrible (Mar 24, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke. Supposedl he saw what was in his mind. He probably was feeling the poison take effect. If that fight had continued. Team 7 would have died. Kakashi was beat. Naruto was about to pass out from poison. And sakura is trash.  No if ands or butts. Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke.  I don't know what's sooo hard to beleive



What the hell? For some reason you take half of Naruto's statement as truth, but discard the rest? How about Naruto saying that Sasuke would also die if they fought? Your sort of reasoning is utterly useless.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 24, 2011)

Mr Horrible said:


> What the hell? For some reason you take half of Naruto's statement as truth, but discard the rest? How about Naruto saying that Sasuke would also die if they fought? Your sort of reasoning is utterly useless.



True, true. What else was he supposed to think TBH. He heard about him killing Deidara(I think), Itachi and Oro...lol...plus he got beat up at the Reunion so I dont blame him for his words. But we're the third parties and we know everything...Naruto doesnt.


----------



## Mr Horrible (Mar 24, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> True, true. What else was he supposed to thin TBH. He heard about him killing Deidara(I think), Itachi and Oro...lol...plus he got beat up at the Reunion so I dont blame him for his words. But we're the third parties and we know everything...Naruto doesnt.



There is a solid argument that Naruto's statement was baseless, I agree. However what you can't do is claim it as baseless, then use half of it as proof that Naruto is weaker than Sasuke. 

I'm more of the mind that Naruto's statement was true though.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 24, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke. Supposedl he saw what was in his mind. He probably was feeling the poison take effect. If that fight had continued. Team 7 would have died. Kakashi was beat. Naruto was about to pass out from poison. And sakura is trash.  No if ands or butts. Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke.  I don't know what's sooo hard to beleive



He actually said they would draw. He never said he would lose to Sasuke. Sasuke is on the ground coughing up blood. Sasuke could not even activate his sharingan. Lol to sharinganless/half blind chakra drained Sasuke beating Naruto, Kakashi, and Sakura. Sakura alone could beat him. And I am honestly not joking in Sasuke's condition. Same for Kakashi. Hell Naruto too. Now logically Madara and Zetsu were there so obviously Zetsu/Sasuke could have taken out Sakura and poisoned passed out Naruto then Madara taking down Kakashi if that is what you mean.


----------



## Brickhunt (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm got lost in the discussion ever since I made my last post, but did anyone brought a point about Genjutsu? Regardless on how much of powerup RM Cloak is, Naruto has yet to break out from high level Genjutsu like the one of Itachi and now probably Sasuke, if still can't counter such Genjutsu then I don't see him beating Sasuke yet regardless on how godly he gets, the guy seriously need a defense and the only I can see him standing up to Tsukuyomi if achieving partnership with Kyuubi.


BrickStyle said:


> How dare you use the word brick in your sentence, and not even have the word "throwing" in the same sentence.


I also take offense on that one


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 24, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke. Supposedl he saw what was in his mind. He probably was feeling the poison take effect. If that fight had continued. Team 7 would have died. Kakashi was beat. Naruto was about to pass out from poison. And sakura is trash.  No if ands or butts. Naruto knew he couldn't beat sasuke.  I don't know what's sooo hard to beleive


Sasuke was blind and was basically out of juice, couldn't even turn on his Sharingan, if Naruto didn't waste time taking, he would've raped Sasuke.

Honestly a Blind Sasuke > Team 7? I don't think so.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 24, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> I'm got lost in the discussion ever since I made my last post, but did anyone brought a point about Genjutsu? Regardless on how much of powerup RM Cloak is, Naruto has yet to break out from high level Genjutsu like the one of Itachi and now probably Sasuke, if still can't counter such Genjutsu then I don't see him beating Sasuke yet regardless on how godly he gets, the guy seriously need a defense and the only I can see him standing up to Tsukuyomi if achieving partnership with Kyuubi.
> 
> I also take offense on that one



You didnt read my stuff  I addressed it.
*To combat the effects of genjutsu, there are several options:

The first option is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra; this is called Genjutsu Release*

Just going into Kyuubi chakra mode should release him cause how its activation follows the basics of dispelling Genjutsu. Naruto shelves his own chakra(stopping the flow of chakra in his body) and then places in the strongest form of Yang chakra around(which would be applying the "stronger" power needed to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra) and I'm sure Kyuubi's chakra is stronger than Sasuke's chakra(who would be the caster) So yeah, Naruto is ok against genjutsu


----------



## Brickhunt (Mar 24, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> You didnt read my stuff  I addressed it.
> *To combat the effects of genjutsu, there are several options:
> 
> The first option is for the ninja to stop the flow of chakra in their body, and then apply an even stronger power to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra; this is called Genjutsu Release*
> ...


Sorry, but there's so much being discussed that you kind get lost. 
So in theory this should work if Naruto is caught on base mode, but what if he is caught on his RM cloak? If he gets caught on this form (that is possible since Sasuke Genjutsu'd Bee on his cloaked form) there's no other strong source of chakra that could disturb him except the chakra from Kyuubi itself. Only if his base mode chakra can also disturb his RM mode, but then Bee could have done it himself without Hachibi's help when he got caught.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 24, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> Sorry, but there's so much being discussed that you kind get lost.
> So in theory this should work if Naruto is caught on base mode, but what if he is caught on his RM cloak? If he gets caught on this form (that is possible since Sasuke Genjutsu'd Bee on his cloaked form) there's no other strong source of chakra that could disturb him except the chakra from Kyuubi itself. Only if his base mode chakra can also disturb his RM mode, but then Bee could have done it himself without Hachibi's help when he got caught.



Aha, good point...good point. Now then I guess Naruto would be screwed! lmao


----------



## Mr Horrible (Mar 24, 2011)

Brickhunt said:


> Sorry, but there's so much being discussed that you kind get lost.
> So in theory this should work if Naruto is caught on base mode, but what if he is caught on his RM cloak? If he gets caught on this form (that is possible since Sasuke Genjutsu'd Bee on his cloaked form) there's no other strong source of chakra that could disturb him except the chakra from Kyuubi itself. Only if his base mode chakra can also disturb his RM mode, but then Bee could have done it himself without Hachibi's help when he got caught.



It may not be ideal, but I'd imagine switching between RM and base would free Naruto of most genjutsu. Tsukuyomi may be a different matter however, based on statements from Itachi. Although Tsukuyomi is only perfect until someone which isn't blood related breaks it, so there's that if you know what I mean.


----------



## ANBUONE (Mar 24, 2011)

WHAT IN EMS WILL MAKE SASUKE ANY STRONGER , THE ONLY THING EMS IS SAID TO HAVE IS THAT YOU DONT GO BLIND


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 24, 2011)

Saunion said:


> Naruto doesn't take "most of its inspiration" from Japanese folklore, it takes its inspiration from shonen manga that came before it such as Dragonball, Hunter X Hunter or Slam Dunk. It's a pile of shonen tropes. That's all it is.


You sir, have comepletely lost almost all forms of credibility in my eyes.
The Sannin are characters from a story almost 300 years old.







Also, Hunter X Hunter came out in 1998, while naruto came out in 1997. Your facts are terrible. And while DB did inspire kishi (along with probably the whole shonen genre scene), it is still different.

DB takes from chinese sources, while NARUTO is a modern retelling of old japanese fables, under a ninja vaneer.



> Oh no I disrespected a fictional character. I'm so sorry.  Will you be alright? I'm kinda worried the shock was too brutal for you.






> I have no idea what you're even replying to, as my initial question was adressed to these guys who seem to take Naruto's words after the Kage summit arc seriously and use them to argue Saucy is far stronger than Naruto. Point is: Naruto telling Neji he couldn't have defeated Sasuke was bullshit. End of.


Cause you actually write the story right?




> I don't care about any of that, you didn't even understand what I was talking about.


meh.




> I'm talking about the next Sasuke vs Naruto fight. It'll definitely be "the final, or at least the most anticipated battle in the manga". Again what the hell is your rebuttal even supposed to be? Learn to read.


Why would it be the final?






> No, the manga is clearly ending. If you can't even see that then it's hopeless.



Kishi himself said it would take YEARS to finish, and he wasn't close to done, and that was last year. so, you are wrong again. Just because you want it to be over, doesn't mean it's close.






> No actually we learned Uchiha were more like effeminate and boring spawns of Satan.


Passing out over another man is about as effeminate as it gets. Let's not talk about the cross-dressing.




> I see. So because Sasuke "intends to live" that means he's stronger than Naruto.


It contributes.





> Of course, Sasuke could "easily" do that.
> 
> Is it easy to type with one hand?


Lets see.
He did it against danzo. That is used amaterasu through his susano'o, and manifested the hand to crush him, so yeah... yeah, it's easy.




> If you start blabbering about PIS, then you have no argument. You lose. It's over.
> 
> .



All you did was post smiles and say "no that's stupid".
If that is winning, it must be opposite day.


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 25, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> It's a by-product used by SPENDING your physical and spiritual energy.
> Stamina+spirit= magic. However it must be first subtracted from the body.
> 
> Putting more magic in the body just makes it magical, but ACTIVATING your body with the magic, (which is called body flicker/shunshin) is what actually makes is strong, which is why naruto used shunshin in the first place.
> ...



Who genjutsu'd you into believing that sasuke has yata's mirror.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 25, 2011)

BrickStyle said:


> Who genjutsu'd you into believing that sasuke has yata's mirror.



Why in christ's name did you quote that whole reply? 

If you want to know how to quote one sentence in a long reply...

1. find sentence you want and highlight it.
2. Cut it with the right click.
3. Highlight the text INSIDE the margin of the quote boxes and delete.
4.Paste the previously cut text.

But anyway... Kishi did.

You see the bottom right panel? His bow is actually the mirror, but it extends to change shape.



But, yeah... hoped that helped.


----------



## Klue (Mar 25, 2011)

BrickStyle said:


> Who genjutsu'd you into believing that sasuke has yata's mirror.



Okay, it's not Yata's Mirror, it's just a mirror that looks the same and works in an identical fashion.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 25, 2011)

I just wanna say I'm happy this thread got so many views. lol


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 25, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Why in christ's name did you quote that whole reply?
> 
> If you want to know how to quote one sentence in a long reply...
> 
> ...



Kishi didn't, he never stated that it's the yata mirror, it just simply looks like it. And as far as we know, itachi died while being in possession of the two legendary items (totsuka no tsurugi and yata no kagami), thus the items were taken to the grave. 

There is another discussion that points that itachi may have possibly transferred or sealed the items within either naruto or sasuke, but since sasuke already used susanoo in the fight with danzo, and if sasuke would have the yata mirror, then one of the primary things that madara would've noticed  in the fight with sasuke vs danzo, would be the yata mirror, and since nobody has every pointed or stated it being the yata mirror, then we can't say it is. It is possible that it's sealed within naruto or sasuke, but it has never been revealed, so we don't know that yet.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 25, 2011)

BrickStyle said:


> Kishi didn't, he never stated that it's the yata mirror, it just simply looks like it. And as far as we know, itachi died while being in possession of the two legendary items (totsuka no tsurugi and yata no kagami), thus the items were taken to the grave.


How about this...
It was actually Zetsu that spoke on yata's mirror, so do you need zetsu to say it belongs to sasuke this time?

It is a spiritual item, which means it is made out of chakra. It is not real, thus calling it an "item" itself is a misnomer. It is moreso an idea. That is how Susano'o works. It changes based on an idea.

Kishi never said shit. Zetsu did. And Sasuke's enton looks like amaterasu as well, does that mean that it still isn't? even though he calls it that? If susano'o is the only thing that has yata's mirror, and sasuke has a susano'o with what is OBVIOUSLY a yata's mirror, it only isn't because zetsu wasn't there to say it was?

Are you serious? Itachi didn't attach the "legendary Items" to his susano'o, they are apart of susano'o. It gives the user the ability to make a warrior out of one's imagination by focusing the image through the eyes.




> There is another discussion that points that itachi may have possibly transferred or sealed the items within either naruto or sasuke, but since sasuke already used susanoo in the fight with danzo, and if sasuke would have the yata mirror, then one of the primary things that madara would've noticed  in the fight with sasuke vs danzo, would be the yata mirror.
> 
> 
> and since nobody has every pointed or stated it being the yata mirror, then we can't say it is. It is possible that it's sealed within naruto or sasuke, but it has never been revealed, so we don't know that yet.



Wow... that is a horrible idea.
People who CAN use a jutsu have to waste panel space with a comment, otherwise any phenomena is fiction.

Let's not even talk about sasuke's "pseudo-susano'o" actually neutralizing danzo's attack, JUST LIKE ITACHI's. hell, since he didn't have itachi's eyes, lets just say he didn't even have a real mangekyou, especially since the colors were inverted.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 25, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> How about this...
> It was actually Zetsu that spoke on yata's mirror, so do you need zetsu to say it belongs to sasuke this time?
> 
> It is a spiritual item, which means it is made out of chakra. It is not real, thus calling it an "item" itself is a misnomer. It is moreso an idea. That is how Susano'o works. It changes based on an idea.
> ...



Nah, it can't be Yata mirror. Yata tanks and _Repels_. That shield Sasuke used just seems to...tank.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 25, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Nah, it can't be Yata mirror. Yata tanks and _Repels_. That shield Sasuke used just seems to...tank.



It repels, it doesn't reverse
Repulsion means it cancels it out with itself, not that it turns it around reverses it.
Look at the databook.

A fuuton jutsu would be canceled out by the shield turning into futon nature, and a physical attack would merely turn the kinetic energy back on itself so when sasuke attacks, he is hit back by his own force, and when the fuuton hits, it is destroyed by its own force. It doesn't go back to danzo, because danzo didn't hit it. The fuuton did. Understand? It is the ULTIMATE tank, because the attacks it receives are automatically canceled out with equal force.

here is the susano'o databook passage.



*Spoiler*: __ 





> Susanoo¹ (須佐能乎)
> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Defensive, All ranges
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 25, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> He has but one trait in his capacity.
> He doesn't go blind. That is all he needs. This means he can use MS as little or as much as he needs, power it up with yin chakra, giving him higher chakra when focused, and have a significant amount of usage per battle.
> 
> That is phenomenal. Jutsu that he might not have used at larger amounts of potency, due to optical danger are fully capable to use.
> ...



Not sure why you are still going on about it. You are already said this was your fanfic. Meaning you already realize you have an argument with no basis. Not sure why people are fighting you when you are clearly right since this is your fanfiction. No big deal when you think of it like that.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 25, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> Not sure why you are still going on about it. You are already said this was your fanfic. Meaning you already realize you have an argument with no basis. Not sure why people are fighting you when you are clearly right since this is your fanfiction. No big deal when you think of it like that.



It is an analysis. Like a graph, or metaphor usage.

Are the characters in the chapter 520 really shogi pieces? no, they are people, but a metaphor is used to show a logical similarity between two unlike things.

I used the directional vectors.


A fanfic is a narrative (a story with a beginning middle and end) that uses unoriginal characters as one's own due to the writer's enjoyment of another's work.

It is not a narrative, but an analysis, thus you can shut up with this fanfic business


----------



## SaVaGe609 (Mar 25, 2011)

Sage Mode Naruto alone was tough. We don't really know how he matched up to Sasuke at that point, but Zetsu (was it?) suggested he was stronger than Sasuke after he had achieved MS. Sasuke probably got the lead back with EMS, and RM Naruto probably matched him there. Those are my guesses anyway.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 25, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> It is an analysis. Like a graph, or metaphor usage.
> 
> Are the characters in the chapter 520 really shogi pieces? no, they are people, but a metaphor is used to show a logical similarity between two unlike things.
> 
> ...


More like fanfiction since it is based in falsehood.

None were compared to such pieces. Fanfic.

Redundant since vectors show direction and magnitude. Just say vectors.

You did write a story. Something we call fanfiction. Even admitting to it.

You already admit that it is fanfiction. Going back on your word now? Maybe you should not have agreed? Makes you simply seem ignorant for telling someone else to shut up for something you admitted


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 25, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> More like fanfiction since it is based in falsehood.
> 
> None were compared to such pieces. Fanfic.
> 
> ...



Just stop talking to me.
I said It wasn't fanfiction.
If you don't let me have an opinion or make educated analysis, there is no reason for me to talk to you.
If you wanna drop it, and discuss like a rational individual, its cool, but I am not going to polute the OP's thread with you saying fan fiction, when that isn't the definitinion.

I didn't tell a story. If you think I did, when I said I didn't.continue by yourself, and don't say another word to me. I am done.



On topic. 
Naruto needs Bunshin daibakuha to win.
that is what he needs.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Mar 26, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Just stop talking to me.
> I said It wasn't fanfiction.
> If you don't let me have an opinion or make educated analysis, there is no reason for me to talk to you.
> 
> ...


Don't get upset over a manga.

No you told a story. Making it a fanfiction. Although if you would like me to call it a fan-based, unsubstantiated, baseless pool of information that is cool too.

You can have an opinion. However basing it on your own bias and no manga facts doesn't make it an educated analysis.

Insult is cool too. You going to try and formulate a legit argument now?

No you told a story. It is all over the thread if you feel the need to remember what you wrote.

On topic:
No he doesn't. Sasuke with bandages over his eyes would lose to a KB from base Naruto.


----------



## xArunOwnsz (Mar 26, 2011)

Rikudo Mode + That Jutsu > Everyone


----------



## BrickStyle (Mar 26, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> How about this...
> It was actually Zetsu that spoke on yata's mirror, so do you need zetsu to say it belongs to sasuke this time?
> 
> It is a spiritual item, which means it is made out of chakra. It is not real, thus calling it an "item" itself is a misnomer. It is moreso an idea. That is how Susano'o works. It changes based on an idea.
> ...



"How about this"
Err I cant understand your first sentences so Im not going on this.

Okay, wait.. You're saying that the yata mirror is a spiritual item. I agree with this quote of yours. But you really did ruin it man.. "It is a spiritual item, which means it is made out of chakra. It is not real, thus calling it an "item" itself is a misnomer." 

What the fuck? This thing was stated as a spiritual item by mister Kishimoto himself. We also got shots of the mirror (when Itachi blocked sauce's attacks). And you outrightly say that it is not real thus immaginary. Seriously how can we actually see something something or call something an item when it's not real. 

You're also forgetting that the shield has showed a physical ability to deflect other physical matter so how the fuck can something immaginary which is not real perform such a feat.

I'm not even gonna argue anymore because this is seriously a waste of my time.

Read the manga again and finish your school... assumptions are empty arguments when you do not provided with any kind of proof.

Good luck with your life.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 26, 2011)

xArunOwnsz said:


> Rikudo Mode + That Jutsu > Everyone



I think that jutsu was naruto learning how to control the kyuubi with the gama seal. Opening and closing the seal depending on the situation, and finally mastering the kyuubi.

He HAS done that jutsu.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 26, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I think that jutsu was naruto learning how to control the kyuubi with the gama seal. Opening and closing the seal depending on the situation, and finally mastering the kyuubi.
> 
> He HAS done that jutsu.



If Minato's master plan was to just seal Kyuubi in Naruto and hopes he controls it one day to defeat Madara is pretty.................lame. There has to be more to this jutsu mane.


----------



## Skywalker (Mar 26, 2011)

Just watch, "that jutsu" will never even be shown.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 26, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> If Minato's master plan was to just seal Kyuubi in Naruto and hopes he controls it one day to defeat Madara is pretty.................lame. There has to be more to this jutsu mane.



Its actually pretty smart. Think about it for a second.
What was the most dangerous thing madara brought to the table at that point?
The ability to phase through objects? The ability to teleport? His sharingan? not quite.

It was that giant fox standing up there, that used to belong to konohagakure. All of the rest of his stuff was dangerous, but not village destroying dangerous. It was anti-personnel at best.  

What was dangerous was that the only jinchuuriki capable for the kyuubi, was in critical condition, and that this mystery fellow who just happened to be the kyuubi's previous owner had come back, and was going to use his most famous weapon to destroy it, so what does minato do?

He depowers the kyuubi to the point where it won't absolutely destroy a country in one shot, and he seals it back within naruto, so that the risk of childbirth breaking the seal is reduced to zero, and so that the next time madara decides to attack, there is a fully capable jinchuuriki standing in his way.


If there was something even more spectacular that naruto was capable of knowing (he DID know of the frog seal) then he would have used it long ago.
Mastering the kyuubi was top priority.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 26, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Its actually pretty smart. Think about it for a second.
> What was the most dangerous thing madara brought to the table at that point?
> The ability to phase through objects? The ability to teleport? His sharingan? not quite.
> 
> ...



Oh, I see. Nice point about Kyuubi truly being his ultimate weapon. Well if that is the case then yes, he has succeeded in truly weakening/taking this weapon from him but Madara's game plan has totally changed now. Instead of an physical attack on a village/the world Madara plans to use a mental attack on everyone and Mastering Kyuubi wont stop this. Then again, Minato didnt know about his change of plans either...interesting isnt it.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 26, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Oh, I see. Nice point about Kyuubi truly being his ultimate weapon. Well if that is the case then yes, he has succeeded in truly weakening/taking this weapon from him but Madara's game plan has totally changed now. Instead of an physical attack on a village/the world Madara plans to use a mental attack on everyone and Mastering Kyuubi wont stop this. Then again, Minato didnt know about his change of plans either...interesting isnt it.



the brilliant move came from pure coincidence. madara needs a complete kyuubi to resurrect juubi, and minato denied that with shiki fuujin.

It does not help that he now knows edo tensei AND gedou rin'ne tensei.
that makes things complicated, and he may be working towards releasing the other half.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 26, 2011)

Klue said:


> Okay, it's not Yata's Mirror, it's just a mirror that looks the same and works in an identical fashion.



This it cracks me up when people claim he doesn't have Yata's mirror, as an effort to belittle Sasuke's Susano, when his shield has shown to function just like Yata'mirror.


----------



## Sasuke` (Mar 26, 2011)

I don't think Madara could defeat either Naruto or Sasuke at their current levels right now. Just because Sasuke doesn't attack Madara doesn't mean he knows he is weaker... it's because he actually does want to kill Naruto/Konoha. I don't know why people believe that just because he has Rinnengan makes him so POWERFUL.. Nagato had it, two in fact, and he lost to SM Naruto, RM Naruto would fucking destroy Rinnengan Madara and so would EMS Sasuke. Don't misunderstand me though, Madara will be stronger once he obtains the Juubi/RS Mode power.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 26, 2011)

Sasuke` said:


> I don't think Madara could defeat either Naruto or Sasuke at their current levels right now. Just because Sasuke doesn't attack Madara doesn't mean he knows he is weaker... it's because he actually does want to kill Naruto/Konoha. I don't know why people believe that just because he has Rinnengan makes him so POWERFUL.. Nagato had it, two in fact, and he lost to SM Naruto, RM Naruto would fucking destroy Rinnengan Madara and so would EMS Sasuke. Don't misunderstand me though, Madara will be stronger once he obtains the Juubi/RS Mode power.



Okay, lets look at just why.

Madara has a rin'negan, and probably is the originator of the paths outside of tendou, which means everything nagato did, madara taught him. Not only that, but the potential to make paths is insane. We have to look at what the paths are as well.

Since they don't really activate through the eyes, we can say they aren't douryouku, but moreso, permanent jutsu one can create for themselves. madara is the second rikudou, and the first Gedou (heretic). He is stronger than nagato, because he is fully capable, strong, has all of the paths at his discretion, and isn't linked to gedou mazou.

and that is just stuff with the paths. Let us not forget that the rin'negan supercharges all of your jutsu because of the affinities you gain. 
He has all of nagato's abilities with extra and none of the drawbacks.

that is why he is scary. And lets not mention he has copied edo tensei now. And guess what kind of dna he has down in his basement... uchiha dna. All of it.

If you think edo tensei is strong with orochimaru's DNA, with senju stamina/uchiha spirit, and the rin'negan, Madara's is going to be INSANE.
that is why he is stronger.


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 26, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> And somehow he did all of this without Konan ever finding out? Stop making stuff up and treat it as anything other than wild Uchiha fanboyish speculation.





Rosencrantz said:


> You probably already noticed this but that is what he does.



Oh, and I bet she was there when he took dumps, or more officialy, when madara influenced Yahiko to create akatsuki.

The fact is, she isn't omnipresent, and even though she spent alot of time with them, she wasn't there 100% of the time, and if madara can hide in walls, teleport, and all other kinds of goodness, he will never be in the room with people he doesn't want to.

He did all that other stuff without konan finding out, and he WAS nagato's contact in akatsuki, and told him what to do.

We also know that the douryouku are not inherent jutsu, but are things you  invent, for example, kamui. So, when nagato didn't have the paths until akatsuki was invented, it really makes sense.

Jiraya hadn't even heard of the paths, but Madara, who you all don't think had any relation, knows how to use the paths immediately, and gave nagato HIS eyes.

~snip~


----------



## Yuna (Mar 26, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> The fact is, she isn't omnipresent, and even though she spent alot of time with them, she wasn't there 100% of the time, and if madara can hide in walls, teleport, and all other kinds of goodness, he will never be in the room with people he doesn't want to.


Tobi says a lot of things. Many of them pure lies. Just because Tobi said it doesn't mean it's undisputed fact.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> We also know that the douryouku are not inherent jutsu, but are things you  invent, for example, kamui. So, when nagato didn't have the paths until akatsuki was invented, it really makes sense.


No we don't for certain at all. We have a hoky translation followed by a line which implies that you can learn Kamui if you just train enough.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Jiraya hadn't even heard of the paths, but Madara, who you all don't think had any relation, knows how to use the paths immediately, and gave nagato HIS eyes.


What?
~snip~


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (Mar 26, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Tobi says a lot of things. Many of them pure lies. Just because Tobi said it doesn't mean it's undisputed fact.


Awesome counter.
Tobi is lying.
It is taking the inreliable narrator trope kind of far.



> No we don't for certain at all. We have a hoky translation followed by a line which implies that you can learn Kamui if you just train enough.


Its in the databook. Kamui is kakashi's Original Jutsu.



> What?


Nagato did not know of the paths for years.
Suddenly he has the paths.

the biggest thing that happened in that point is madara meeting him and yahiko.

~snip~


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 26, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Nagato did not know of the paths for years.
> Suddenly he has the paths.
> 
> the biggest thing that happened in that point is madara meeting him and yahiko.
> ...



I just wanted to agree with this point...how did Nagato know about 6-paths? Its not like if the Rinnengan comes with a manual guys. The only thing about Eyes tech abilities seemed to be on that tablet in Konoha which he has never seen. And I doubt he just decided to stab dead bodies one day and try to control them. Only one person couldve informed him about the ability and that person is.............................you know who.


----------



## T-Bag (Mar 26, 2011)

Kyuubi cloak. And Madara will have Juubi cloak.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Mar 27, 2011)

Aari said:


> Kyuubi cloak. And Madara will have Juubi cloak.



Lol, I wonder how colour Juubi would consist of. Purple perhaps?


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Mar 27, 2011)

Sasuke` said:


> I don't think Madara could defeat either Naruto or Sasuke at their current levels right now. Just because Sasuke doesn't attack Madara doesn't mean he knows he is weaker... it's because he actually does want to kill Naruto/Konoha. I don't know why people believe that just because he has Rinnengan makes him so POWERFUL.. Nagato had it, two in fact, and he lost to SM Naruto, RM Naruto would fucking destroy Rinnengan Madara and so would EMS Sasuke. Don't misunderstand me though, Madara will be stronger once he obtains the Juubi/RS Mode power.



The amount of hax Madara currently possesses is greater than that of Naruto and Sasuke's *combined*. At this point, neither of them have anything on Madara; they can only dream of defeating him.

So we've got EMS Sasuke; hype is being thrown left and right, but it's already been stated the Rinnegan is the absolute strongest of all three great doujutsu. It dwarfs all it sees. And even if Sasuke were to become problematic for Madara in the future, Madara already knows everything about the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. He's got no problem fighting it, while Sasuke doesn't even know the Rinnegan exists. He still thinks the Sharingan is the pinnacle of doujutsu power; he's in for a little surprise.

Then we've got RM Naruto; his control over the Nine-Tailed Fox's chakra is flimsy at best, and he's still got a Rasengan (which admittedly will kick ass on the battlefield) that is, however, only partially developed. He isn't "friends" with the Nine-Tails yet, and therefore does not have all the advantages that a perfect host would have, like Killer Bee. He's got a long way to go if he wants to defeat Madara, because that isn't happening anytime in the present.

Jubi Madara will absolutely blow the roof in terms of power and chakra capacity; he'll probably be Rikodou Sennin's equal, or even slightly better than him, depending on how Kishimoto intends to handle things. Honestly, he won't even need the Ten-Tailed Beast to steamroll those he comes across, but that's what his plan entails. As such, it will most likely make an appearance as the manga nears its end.


----------

