# Minato and Naruto vs Hashirama



## Doctor Lamperouge (Mar 4, 2013)

Location: Pre-VOTE (VOTE before VOTE happened)
Distance: 50m
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Bijuu Suppression

Minato has tags pre-placed in Konoha, as well as safehouses and other locations spread out across the continent. Minato starts with a Kyuubi chakra shroud courtesy of Naruto, while Naruto has a Hiraishin tag incorporated in his seal formula, that is copied to any kage bunshin he creates. 

If Hashi still stomps then add Rinnegan Obito with his Edo Jinchuuriki Six Paths and Gedou Mazo. Minato and Obito can use my ZeroSpace Maneuver.

If Minato and Naruto stomp, then add EMS Madara to Hashirama's side. EMS Madara does not have the Kyuubi.

Bonus Scenario: Sage Mode restricted for Hashirama.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 4, 2013)

BM naruto is many tiers below a complete kyuubi/perfect susano fusion. hashirama wipes his ass with naruto even with biju suppression restricted.

minato isnt a huge factor. he can do absolutely nothing to sm hashirama that can even pose the slightest threat to his life. all he can do is run from _shinsuusenju_.


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## ImSerious (Mar 4, 2013)

wuuut. Minato alone can take Hashirama. Adding Naruto is overkill. Mid diff.


Adding Madara doesnt really change anything. Naruto can take Madara while Minato takes Hashirama. High diff.


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## Magician (Mar 4, 2013)

Hashirama low diffs this.


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## ueharakk (Mar 4, 2013)

Minato and Naruto have a good shot at winning.  With the KN1 chakra cloak, Minato can most likely FTG full BM Naruto with ease, thus hashirama will be fighting a teleporting opponent who has more firepower than what we've seen Hashi dealing with at VoTe.  

Hashirama's answer to bijuudama was to catch it with wood hands.  FTG pretty much negates that advantage as Minato can teleport the bijuudamas directly onto his tags so that there is basically no travel time.  There's also the fact that Hashi can't catch FRS with wood hands, and Naruto can make clones that can spam that stuff from within his chakra cloak.  

On the other hand, SM Hashirama not only gets superbuddah, but also gets all of his other techniques powered up by SM, which means SM flower tree world, mokuryu and mokujin.  We only can speculate as to how much SM can powerup these techniques, but if we go with the assumption that they have equal durability, but are just much larger than hashi's normal wood techniques super bijuudama, standard bijuudama, or rapidfire are still answers to those techniques.

The two big problems team Naruto is faced with is: 
- getting FTG tags somewhat close to Hashirama 
- 8 minute full BM limit

Minato tagging KCM clones and having them run around the battlefield should be a good way of getting tag options out there, and with FTG battles are almost always finished quickly.  So since there is so much speculation on SM Hashirama's abilities, *I'd give Naruto and Minato the edge with a big margin of error.*


Bonus Scenario:
Hashirama gets mopped, Naruto alone can take Base Hashirama.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Mar 4, 2013)

I'd like to mention that Minato could probably warp Shinsusenju off the battlefield if he was supercharged by Naruto's Kyuubi chakra.


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## Jizznificent (Mar 4, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> I'd like to mention that Minato could probably warp Shinsusenju off the battlefield if he was supercharged by Naruto's Kyuubi chakra.


then hashirama makes another one?


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 4, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> I'd like to mention that Minato could probably warp Shinsusenju off the battlefield if he was supercharged by Naruto's Kyuubi chakra.


if minato gets a 3x boost from the kyuubis chakra & he was drained from warping the kyuubi, he still cant warp _shinsuusenju _ as its about 10x bigger than a 100% kyuubi/PS fusion.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Mar 4, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> if minato gets a 3x boost from the kyuubis chakra & he was drained from warping the kyuubi, he still cant warp _shinsuusenju _ as its about 10x bigger than a 100% kyuubi/PS fusion.


1. 3x boost is only for Kakashi's original cloakless/tailless supercharge. Kakashi stated that the cloaked/tailed boost he got afterwards was even greater than that, and that's the package Naruto is going to give Minato. Theoretically, Naruto could give him as much chakra as he wants as Minato is his only ally in this case. He doesn't have to divide his chakra up amongst an entire alliance. So no, its not just a 3x boost, unless you think Hinata with just a 3x boost could block the Juubi's tail with one palm. 

2. Minato was only drained because he wasn't fresh when he warped the Kyuubi. He had just completed a night of holding back the Kyuubi in Kushina's seal for hours during her labor, using Hiraishin multiple times, fighting Obito, warping the Kyuubi's bijuudama, and summoning Gamabunta (which is already a kage level chakra feat as stated in Part 1) before he warped the Kyuubi. And he still had enough chakra left over for hakke and shiki fuin.


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## tanman (Mar 5, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> I'd like to mention that Minato could probably warp Shinsusenju off the battlefield if he was supercharged by Naruto's Kyuubi chakra.



Problem is that he would have to go with it.
In which case, he would be sacrificing himself when Hashirama can probably create another one. But he doesn't need it to solo BM Naruto.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Mar 5, 2013)

tanman said:


> Problem is that he would have to go with it.
> In which case, he would be sacrificing himself when Hashirama can probably create another one. But he doesn't need it to solo BM Naruto.



He could easily teleport back. 



Jizznificent said:


> then hashirama makes another one?



Are you sure he can?


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Minato and Naruto have a good shot at winning.  With the KN1 chakra cloak, Minato can most likely FTG full BM Naruto with ease, thus hashirama will be fighting a teleporting opponent who has *more firepower *than what we've seen Hashi dealing with at VoTe.



What?




> Hashirama gets mopped, Naruto alone can take Base Hashirama.



I sincerely doubt that; Hashirama's Wood Dragon is likely more powerful than Madara's version and can easily restrict BM Naruto. Never mind his _Mokuton: Mokujin_ technique not only has physical strength capable of catching *Perfect Susanoo's blows*, but can also survive a 100% Kyuubi Bijuudama, point-blank.

The way I see it, Wood Dragon + Mokujin restrict BM Naruto's movement while the former technique sucks out all his chakra.


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## ueharakk (Mar 5, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> What?


At VoTe, we have yet to see any attack that even comes close to BM Naruto's super bijuudama.




ATastyMuffin said:


> I sincerely doubt that; Hashirama's Wood Dragon is likely more powerful than Madara's version and can easily restrict BM Naruto. Never mind his _Mokuton: Mokujin_ technique not only has physical strength capable of catching *Perfect Susanoo's blows*, but can also survive a 100% Kyuubi Bijuudama, point-blank.



Mokuryu was busted by just having a bijuudama pass through it.  Mokujin, mokuryu and flower tree world were all destroyed by just being in the blast radius of a bijuudama.  

Naruto's rapidfire bijuudama is the answer to all of those techniques.  1 Rapidfire bijuudama would bust mokuryu.  Mokujin would require 2-3 since he can potentially catch 2 since he has 2 hands.

And mokujin didn't survive the bijuudama, that was a defensive mokuton that hashirama created offpanel.



ATastyMuffin said:


> The way I see it, Wood Dragon + Mokujin restrict BM Naruto's movement while the former technique sucks out all his chakra.


That's only if Naruto decides to wrestle with the dragon instead of nuking which he should do now that he has knowledge.  And firing FRS from his BM tails would also defeat those techniques.
And of course, if he gets caught, he can just cancel the cloak and flash shunshin out of there like he did in canon.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> At VoTe, we have yet to see any attack that even comes close to BM Naruto's super bijuudama.



except bijudamas from the kyuubi & PS slashes that took out 6 mountains at once.



> Mokuryu was busted by just having a bijuudama pass through it.  Mokujin, mokuryu and *flower tree world* were all destroyed by just being in the blast radius of a bijuudama.


no it wasnt. that was just jukai koutan. there were no flowers.


> Naruto's rapidfire bijuudama is the answer to all of those techniques.  1 Rapidfire bijuudama would bust mokuryu.  Mokujin would require 2-3 since he can potentially catch 2 since he has 2 hands.


why didnt naruto do this in canon against the mokuryu? you lose by default if your cry PIS, CIS or plot no jutsu.


> And mokujin didn't survive the bijuudama, that was a defensive mokuton that hashirama created offpanel.
> 
> 
> That's only if Naruto decides to wrestle with the dragon instead of nuking which he should do now that he has knowledge.  And firing FRS from his BM tails would also defeat those techniques.
> *And of course, if he gets caught, he can just cancel the cloak and flash shunshin out of there like he did in canon.*



naruto already had knowledge on the dragon before he wrestled it. nothing changes. the kyuubi cloak will always get suppressed in front of the mokuryu. frs does nothing to mokuton. hashiramas mokuton summons regenerate if they arent obliterated. after the kyuubi blasted mokuryu, it reformed itself again near instantly on the next page.

@bold-thats obviously not what happened but you will surely deny what actually happened in canon. naruto didnt "escape". he got the cloak ripped off of him then used shunshin.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 5, 2013)

Roar or 5 Bijuu-submitting chakra arm barrage would likely kill Hashirama at start battle from this distance, with minimum difficulty. 

No need for super-bijuudama.

This thread is actually a stomp in many regards.



> Minato has tags pre-placed in Konoha, as well as safehouses and other locations spread out across the continent. Minato starts with a Kyuubi chakra shroud courtesy of Naruto, while Naruto has a Hiraishin tag incorporated in his seal formula, that is copied to any kage bunshin he creates.


At this point Hashirama is just getting too much hype.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 5, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Roar or 5 Bijuu-submitting chakra arm barrage would likely kill Hashirama at start battle from this distance, with minimum difficulty.
> 
> No need for super-bijuudama.
> 
> ...


its surprising that this roar wasnt a factor in hashiramas fight with madara at all in canon. the kyuubi cant kill any respectable ninja by screaming. get over it. it has never been a factor in canon & never will be.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 5, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> its surprising that this roar wasnt a factor in hashiramas fight with madara at all in canon. the kyuubi cant kill any respectable ninja by screaming. get over it. it has never been a factor in canon & never will be.


Not at all surprising, plot has restricted Kurama in many regards throughout the series.

Features dictate Kurama's roar can kill 99% of the verse from 50m or less. Hashirama is really no different.

This isn't canon, this is a logical simulation.

If you don't like the roar, a chakra arm barrage or super bijuudama stomps Hashirama just as quickly.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 5, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Not at all surprising, plot has restricted Kurama in many regards throughout the series.
> 
> Features dictate Kurama's roar can kill 99% of the verse from 50m or less. Hashirama is really no different.
> 
> ...


hashirama already countered all the powers of the kyuubi. everything you are talking about failed in canon.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 5, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hashirama already countered all the power of the kyuubi in canon. everything you are talking about failed in canon.


Everything I've suggested was not used at VOTE- because Kurama was a mindless beast controlled by a dumbass.

Naruto's control of Kurama's chakra comes second to none- Hashirama has virtually no chance at defeating BM Naruto in any scenario you provide.

The fact Minato in a Kyuubi shroud was added to this debate really makes it pointless from this point foward. He can virtually blitz at start battle and FCD splatter him in the span of 3 seconds.


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## Sarry (Mar 5, 2013)

Having Hashirama spawn a mini forest, Sagemode(if needed), self-healing, and expertly made clones: Hashirama wins. He may have diffculty in some scenarios, but he'll win regardless. 

From feats, and hype. Kishi's setting up EMS and Hashirama to be legendary, in their own leagues. 
Currently speaking, they've yet to be surpassed.


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## Inferno (Mar 5, 2013)

Not jumping into the debate, but you guys should remember that Naruto's BM cloak took Juubi's laser (that took out multiple mountains) and only lost the tips of its tails (that can regenerate). Since Bijuu suppression is restricted, Hashirama will have *a lot* of trouble putting BM down.


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## ueharakk (Mar 5, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except bijudamas from the kyuubi & PS slashes that took out 6 mountains at once.


Kyuubi's bijuudama was only as powerful as the ones that neo pain were firing proven by the fact that the size of the bijuudamas were the same and the resulting blast radius were the same.

The PS slash only cut the tops off of 6 mountains.  Vaporizing a mountain >>>>>>>>> cutting a mountain.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no it wasnt. that was just jukai koutan. there were no flowers.


well if it wasn't FTW, then the same thing would have happened to FTW since the trunks were the same size.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> why didnt naruto do this in canon against the mokuryu? you lose by default if your cry PIS, CIS or plot no jutsu.


Obviously PIS since there is no reason for Naruto to opt to wrestle with the dragon when he can easily bust it with a bijuudama as I have proven.

How bout you tell me what's stopping Naruto from doing that in canon against Mokuryu? 

Also, why do I lose by default if I can prove that Naruto can easily take care of mokuryu and thus say Naruto deciding to wrestle the dragon is PIS?  Because you say so?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto already had knowledge on the dragon before he wrestled it. nothing changes.


I'd love to see you tell me how you came to this conclusion.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the kyuubi cloak will always get suppressed in front of the mokuryu. frs does nothing to mokuton.


So a bijuudama destroys Mokuryuu by just passing through it, yet a FRS won't destroy it if it explodes?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hashiramas mokuton summons regenerate if they arent obliterated. after the kyuubi blasted mokuryu, it reformed itself again near instantly on the next page.


that was Hashirama simply making another mokuryuu.  We see the body of the mokuton dragon still in kurama's hands while the other mokuryuu is being formed.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> @bold-thats obviously not what happened but you will surely deny what actually happened in canon. naruto didnt "escape". he got the cloak ripped off of him then used shunshin.


Um... and what happened after he used shunshin?  Was he somehow still trapped by the dragon?  Was he still being bound?  If Naruto did not escape the technique, he would have been defeated by it.   And you are actually somewhat right in saying he didn't escape since he actually defeated the dragon before he truly got away from mokuryu, so a more correct way of saying it would be naruto defeated mokuryu instead of escaped.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 5, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Everything I've suggested was not used at VOTE- because Kurama was a mindless beast controlled by a dumbass.


its already stated in the manga that madara is intelligent


> Naruto's control of Kurama's chakra comes second to none- Hashirama has virtually no chance at defeating *fanon* BM Naruto in any scenario you provide.


fixed


> The fact Minato in a Kyuubi shroud was added to this debate really makes it pointless from this point foward. He can virtually blitz at start battle and FCD splatter him in the span of 3 seconds.


you dont know how fights go down do you?


ueharakk said:


> Kyuubi's bijuudama was only as powerful as the ones that neo pain were firing proven by the fact that the size of the bijuudamas were the same and the resulting blast radius were the same.


not really. the kyuubis bijudama was able to stretch to multiple mountains.


> The PS slash only cut the tops off of 6 mountains.  Vaporizing a mountain >>>>>>>>> cutting a mountain.


sure maybe in your fanfiction.



> well if it wasn't FTW, then the same thing would have happened to FTW since the trunks were the same size.


sure in your fanfiction. the flower world wouldve covered the entire battlefield.



> Obviously PIS since there is no reason for Naruto to opt to wrestle with the dragon when he can easily bust it with a bijuudama as I have proven.


when you cry about factors that arent inside the manga then you lose by default.


> How bout you tell me what's stopping Naruto from doing that in canon against Mokuryu?


we saw the canon encounter. once kishi speaks, all debate is over.


> Also, why do I lose by default if I can prove that Naruto can easily take care of mokuryu and thus say Naruto deciding to wrestle the dragon is PIS?  Because you say so?


because kishi says so.



> I'd love to see you tell me how you came to this conclusion.


madara told naruto what the mokuryu was, what its purpose was & what he planned to do with it thus naruto had knowedge on it & still failed.



> So a bijuudama destroys Mokuryuu by just passing through it, yet a FRS won't destroy it if it explodes?


it will slice off parts of it but would do nothing else.



> that was Hashirama simply making another mokuryuu.  *We see the body of the mokuton dragon still in kurama's hands while the other mokuryuu is being formed.*


no we didnt but i wont dwell on this point as it doesnt really matter.



> Um... and what happened after he used shunshin?  Was he somehow still trapped by the dragon?  Was he still being bound?  If Naruto did not escape the technique, he would have been defeated by it.   And you are actually somewhat right in saying he didn't escape since he actually defeated the dragon before he truly got away from mokuryu, so a more correct way of saying it would be naruto defeated mokuryu instead of escaped.




no the kyuubi avatar was ripped from him then he used shunshin. the dragon already did its job which was suppressing the kyuubi.


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## ueharakk (Mar 5, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> not really. the kyuubis bijudama was able to stretch to multiple mountains.


Well, first off you didn't address the fact that the size of kurama's bijuudama is only comparable to one of these and thus logically the power should be roughly equal to one of those.

Next the kyuubi's bijuudama only covered about the same area that the neo pain bijuudamas covered.  We see in this scan neo pain's bijuudama is at least as big as bee's whirlwind.  And then you can compare bee's whirlwind to the size of the area surrounded by the mountains which would be roughly equal as long as bee is at least as big as 100% Kurama's head.

So either by the size of the bijuudama or the blast radius, the one kurama used was basically just as powerful as the ones neo pain were using.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sure maybe in your fanfiction.


if calling my argument a fanfiction is your only counter, then its a concession on your part.

Vaporizing a high-end mountain requires much more power than what it takes to cut one.  Thus Madara's statement about a slash of the PS being comparable to the power of a bijuu (standard bijuudama) would also support my reasoning.  

How do you think a PS slash compares to a standard bijuudama?  Would you not at least agree that vaporizing a mountain requires more power than cutting one?




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> sure in your fanfiction. the flower world wouldve covered the entire battlefield.


if you reread my post, I only state that the bijuudama destroys whatever is in its blast radius.  Thus if FTW is so big that it is not within the blast radius, those parts would not get destroyed.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> when you cry about factors that arent inside the manga then you lose by default.
> 
> we saw the canon encounter. once kishi speaks, all debate is over.
> 
> because kishi says so.


so basically there is no reason for Naruto to repeat those actions again or to have done them in the first place other than plot.  Thus since there is no real reason for naruto to do that, he doesn't and opts to simply nuke especially since he has full knowledge on the tech now.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> madara told naruto what the mokuryu was, what its purpose was & what he planned to do with it thus naruto had knowedge on it & still failed.


Naruto had no knowledge on its ability to drain his chakra after biting him which would obviously make him change his battle strategy from trying to wrestle with it.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> it will slice off parts of it but would do nothing else.


that's all it took for Kurama to destroy the first Mokuryu





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no the kyuubi avatar was ripped from him then he used shunshin. the dragon already did its job which was suppressing the kyuubi.


I guess it's just semantics then.  Either way, would you agree that if the dragon bites his kurama shroud in this fight, Naruto would shunshin out of it like he did in canon?  Because that's basically the only point I am trying to contend.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Well, first off you didn't address the fact that the size of kurama's bijuudama is only comparable to one of these and thus logically the power should be roughly equal to one of those.


we already saw its blast radius when minato redirected its bijudama & its bigger than the other biju. since when is the size of the sphere>blast radius?


> Next the kyuubi's bijuudama only covered about the same area that the neo pain bijuudamas covered.  We see in this scan neo pain's bijuudama is at least as big as bee's whirlwind.  And then you can compare bee's whirlwind to the size of the area surrounded by the mountains which would be roughly equal as long as bee is at least as big as 100% Kurama's head.


the area that bee used the whirlwind at isnt anywhere near the mountains so how are you comparing them. the hachibi is half the size of the complete kyuubi. anyway we saw that the kyuubis bijudama is superior to the others as shown in minatos case.


> So either by the size of the bijuudama or the blast radius, the one kurama used was basically just as powerful as the ones neo pain were using.


already proved this false.



> if calling my argument a fanfiction is your only counter, then its a concession on your part.
> 
> Vaporizing a high-end mountain requires much more power than what it takes to cut one.  Thus Madara's statement about a slash of the PS being comparable to the power of a bijuu (standard bijuudama) would also support my reasoning.
> 
> How do you think a PS slash compares to a standard bijuudama?  Would you not at least agree that vaporizing a mountain requires more power than cutting one?



2 different types of forces, 2 different ways of using energy. the sword slash has much better chances of penetrating something that bijudama cant destroy.

madara said that his PS is biju comparable as they both destroy mountains. PS sliced 6 mountains while a biju destroys 1.



> if you reread my post, I only state that the bijuudama destroys whatever is in its blast radius.  Thus if FTW is so big that it is not within the blast radius, those parts would not get destroyed.



ok.


> so basically there is no reason for Naruto to repeat those actions again or to have done them in the first place other than plot.  Thus since there is no real reason for naruto to do that, he doesn't and opts to simply nuke especially since he has full knowledge on the tech now.


 
he had full knowledge & we already saw how the encounter went down.



> Naruto had no knowledge on its ability to drain his chakra after biting him which would obviously make him change his battle strategy from trying to wrestle with it.


naruto has always had knowledge on the biju suppression abilities of mokuton. he knew everything about mokuton & it changed nothing.



> that's all it took for Kurama to destroy the first Mokuryu




ok?



> I guess it's just semantics then.  Either way, would you agree that if the dragon bites his kurama shroud in this fight, Naruto would shunshin out of it like he did in canon?  Because that's basically the only point I am trying to contend.



if the dragon bit the cloak, it would absrob the kyuubi of naruto then after he got the cloak drained, he will use shunshin like in canon.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 5, 2013)

> its already stated in the manga that madara is intelligent


Madara was psychopathic when he fought Hashirama. 

Which is why Kurama didn't:
1. Roar
2. Use Chakra Arms
3. Use Super Bijuudama

at VOTE.

Suggesting he was, indeed, plot restricted. 



> fixed


This is your response?



> you dont know how fights go down do you?


I don't know how fights go down? That's your response to KCM Minato blitzing Hashirama? 

Woo boy you are quite the Hashi fan.

Enjoy the rep.


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## ueharakk (Mar 5, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> we already saw its blast radius when minato redirected its bijudama & its bigger than the other biju. since when is the size of the sphere>blast radius?


um... this might be news to you but not every bijuudama fired from the same bijuu is the same size.

The one Kurama fired against Hashirama was noticeably smaller as we can see how big it is compared to Madara in this scan. Which makes it roughly the same size as these when compared to kakashi and gai.

Now compare that to this one, and the difference between the two bijuudamas that kurama fired is obvious.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the area that bee used the whirlwind at isnt anywhere near the mountains so how are you comparing them. the hachibi is half the size of the complete kyuubi. anyway we saw that the kyuubis bijudama is superior to the others as shown in minatos case.


If the hachibi is half the size of the kyuubi, then just replace the kyuubi in this scan with the hachibi, and then compare how big the whirlwind is to the area cleared by the kyuubi's bijuudama.  The area the whirlwind cleared is at least as big as the area the kyuubi's dama cleared, and thus the blast radius of neo pein's bijuudama (which is greater or equal to the whirlwind) would be roughly the same as the blast radius of that kyuubi bijuudama.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> already proved this false.


...right.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> 2 different types of forces, 2 different ways of using energy. the sword slash has much better chances of penetrating something that bijudama cant destroy.


That is not true.  If the sword cut through the mountain and continued on to cut more things then yes it would have more penetrating power, but if it only was able to cut through what a bijuudama can vaporize, that does not mean it yields more energy or even has more penetrating power.  

here's an example.  Say a sword makes a 1 meter deep cut in a wall.  And say a bomb makes a 1 meter deep hole in the wall.  Which attack has more penetrating power?  Neither as both attacks penetrated the wall a maximum of 1 meter.  It's the same thing with the bijuudama vs slash.  The slash cuts through the thickness of the mountain, the bijuudama vaporizes the thickness of the mountain, thus both remove the same thickness and thus both have the same penetrating power.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> madara said that his PS is biju comparable as they both destroy mountains. PS sliced 6 mountains while a biju destroys 1.


No, he compared the slash's overall power to the power that any of the bijuu have which is the standard bijuudama.  His slash does not destroy mountains, it only cuts mountains, which is why the first time he used it, it made up for this difference by destroying the meteor, cutting 2 mountains and ravaging the landscape.

Now again, I'll ask, would you not agree that it takes more power to vaporize a mountain than to cut one?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> he had full knowledge & we already saw how the encounter went down.


Once again, he didn't have full knowledge and there is no reason for him to tussle with it when he can just dama it without difficulty.  If you can't even come up with a plausible reason why naruto would decide to wrestle with the dragon again, it's a concession. 

Naruto didn't know how powerful, durable, or the fact that the dragon could drain his cloak by biting him, and thus he payed the price in canon by having to shunshin out of it.
Now that naruto knows what wrestling with the dragon will result in, he has absolutely no reason to do so, he'll opt to bust it with a rapidfire bijuudama.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> naruto has always had knowledge on the biju suppression abilities of mokuton. he knew everything about mokuton & it changed nothing.


bee was surprised by the bijuu suppression abilities of the mokuton despite knowing about it from yamato, and once again he never encountered bijuu absorption ability before.





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> ok?


which means FRS would defeat the dragon.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> if the dragon bit the cloak, it would absrob the kyuubi of naruto then after he got the cloak drained, he will use shunshin like in canon.


Not with full knowledge he would not.  There is no reason why Naruto would repeat the same mistakes he made in canon with full knowledge of what will happen.  It's like saying Itachi will always fall for Kakashi's bunshin feints if kakashi opts to use mist and then go underground.  

brotherin, if you don't even have a reason why naruto wouldn't simply end the mokuryu with a bijuudama instead of opt to wrestle it despite knowing what the dragon did to him before, or naruto waiting for the dragon to eat his cloak and then shunshin out of it, its concessionary.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Mar 5, 2013)

People also seem to be underestimating how hax'd a KCM Minato who can use BM Naruto clones as mobile Hiraishin seals would be.


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## Inferno (Mar 6, 2013)

People ignored my post...



> Not jumping into the debate, but you guys should remember that Naruto's BM cloak took Juubi's laser (that took out multiple mountains) and only lost the tips of its tails (that can regenerate). Since Bijuu suppression is restricted, Hashirama will have a lot of trouble putting BM down.


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## Bonly (Mar 6, 2013)

I'd say this depends on how much of a boost does Minato get when he gets some of Kurama chakra, in the speed department as well as how fast Hashi's reactions are along with how long Hashi takes before going into Sage Mode. Its arguable whether Hashi could react to Minato's speed alone but add in Kurama's enhancing speed, which Kakashi said 3 folds without the cloak and with the cloak being a bit different, Minato speed might be to much to handle. Add in FTG along with BM Naruto to help take out some Mokuton without said Mokuton suppressing Naruto's charka, as of now I favor Team Naruto. Although in the next few chapters we're likely to see more of the Kages fighting so this outcome might change.


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## Jinemba (Mar 6, 2013)

To put it simply.

Team 1:
Naruto + 50% Kyuubi + Minato

Vs.

Team 2:
Hashirama > 100% Kyuubi cloaked in perfect susanoo + EMS


Hashirama wins, Hashirama defeated a 100% Kyuubi Cloaked in Perfect Susanoo, that is literally the most perfect form of offence and defence in the series by far no if, ands or buts. This is a kyuubi with more chakra power than Naruto has and on top of that it is armored in the most durable form of defence in the series. AND ON TOP OF THAT! We have a master Uchiha, EMS user who makes it so his opponent can't even fight at 100% because he Hashirama has to be careful not to come across Madara's eyes the entire time...

This is a feat that basically craps on everything else in the manga. Right now Naruto isn't much more than the power of the kyuubi, Hashirama has defeated a stronger version of the kyuubi while having his vision impaired by Madara being a sharingan/genjutsu wielding opponent and the kyuubi had perfect susanoo. GG Hashirama > Logic


Remember when Might Gai approached Itachi, how he had to look down and away from his eyes, remember that Gai said that he trained to fight sharingan users. Imagine doing that but instead of it being Itachi it was Madara + 100% Kyuubi + Perfect Susanoo.


Minato won't be enough to make up for it, Minato doesn't shine in dealing damage, at least he won't against a Senju  body + master healer + Mokuton defence user like Hashirama. Minato shines in speed and Naruto already shines in that, so he isn't making up for Naruto's weak points in any way.


Hashirama wins.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 6, 2013)

Jinemba said:


> To put it simply.
> 
> Team 1:
> Naruto + 50% Kyuubi + Minato
> ...


Full Kurama can't/or didn't use
1. Roar
2. Chakra Arms
3. Super Bijuudama

at VOTE.

It's pretty much common sense at this point that BM Naruto is far superior to Kurama- as he canonically has controlled his chakra output much better. 

You effortlessly assume he defeated the Kyuubi- when the Kyuubi was under the direct control of a psychopathic Madara- meaning it wasn't really Kurama. You also don't have canon evidence that he defeated them- because we haven't seen the result of the battle yet. Any number of mishaps could have transpired.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Mar 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> um... this might be news to you but not every bijuudama fired from the same bijuu is the same size.


ok who cares.


> The one Kurama fired against Hashirama was noticeably smaller as we can see how big it is compared to Madara in this scan. Which makes it roughly the same size as these when compared to kakashi and gai.


since when is the size of bijudama>what we see in the explosion.


> Now compare that to this one, and the difference between the two bijuudamas that kurama fired is obvious.


the kyuubis tbb has already been shown to cover more than 1 mountain unlike the other biju. what are you trying to prove?



> If the hachibi is half the size of the kyuubi, then just replace the kyuubi in this scan with the hachibi, and then compare how big the whirlwind is to the area cleared by the kyuubi's bijuudama.  The area the whirlwind cleared is at least as big as the area the kyuubi's dama cleared, and thus the blast radius of neo pein's bijuudama (which is greater or equal to the whirlwind) would be roughly the same as the blast radius of that kyuubi bijuudama.



as i said before, the kyuubis bijudama have the feats of destroying more than one mountain.



> ...right.


i know.




> That is not true.  If the sword cut through the mountain and continued on to cut more things then yes it would have more penetrating power, but if it only was able to cut through what a bijuudama can vaporize, that does not mean it yields more energy or even has more penetrating power.


did you forget that madaras perfect susano cut a mountain then shockwave went & cut 2 more mountains after that?


> here's an example.  Say a sword makes a 1 meter deep cut in a wall.  And say a bomb makes a 1 meter deep hole in the wall.  Which attack has more penetrating power?  Neither as both attacks penetrated the wall a maximum of 1 meter.  It's the same thing with the bijuudama vs slash.  The slash cuts through the thickness of the mountain, the bijuudama vaporizes the thickness of the mountain, thus both remove the same thickness and thus both have the same penetrating power.


except PS alrady cut through multiple mountains & when i bring this up you jump on madaras statement which doesnt help your point regardless.



> No, he compared the slash's overall power to the power that any of the bijuu have which is the standard bijuudama.  His slash does not destroy mountains, it only cuts mountains, which is why the first time he used it, it made up for this difference by destroying the meteor, cutting 2 mountains and ravaging the landscape.


they both destroy mountains. what do you want? also the swords of PS can slice through bijudama which proves its superiority over it.


> Now again, I'll ask, would you not agree that it takes more power to vaporize a mountain than to cut one?


until i see an individual biju vaporizing 6 mountains at once it isnt.



> Once again, he didn't have full knowledge and there is no reason for him to tussle with it when he can just dama it without difficulty.  If you can't even come up with a plausible reason why naruto would decide to wrestle with the dragon again, it's a concession.


when you disregard canon for some fanon made up scenario, its basically concessionary.


> Naruto didn't know how powerful, durable, or the fact that the dragon could drain his cloak by biting him, and thus he payed the price in canon by having to shunshin out of it.
> Now that naruto knows what wrestling with the dragon will result in, he has absolutely no reason to do so, he'll opt to bust it with a rapidfire bijuudama.


im not sure how this changes how madara told naruto everything about the dragon & he still failed. 



> bee was surprised by the bijuu suppression abilities of the mokuton despite knowing about it from yamato, and once again he never encountered bijuu absorption ability before.



that was the hachibi that commented that the wood paralysis was just like hashiramas & naruto even said "just like captain yamato".




> which means FRS would defeat the dragon.



not if we go by canon feats.



> Not with full knowledge he would not.  There is no reason why Naruto would repeat the same mistakes he made in canon with full knowledge of what will happen.  It's like saying Itachi will always fall for Kakashi's bunshin feints if kakashi opts to use mist and then go underground.


he couldnt do anything to stop it even with knowledge so the mokuryu is forever>BM naruto.


> brotherin, if you don't even have a reason why naruto wouldn't simply end the mokuryu with a bijuudama instead of opt to wrestle it despite knowing what the dragon did to him before, or *naruto waiting for the dragon to eat his cloak and then shunshin out of it,* its concessionary.


yes the bold is what happened in canon. naruto didnt wait for the dragon to eat his cloak. it was forcibly ripped from him. naruto cant put up a fight against the mokuryu without full kyuubi BM.


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## Jizznificent (Mar 6, 2013)

The Dreaded Alias said:


> Are you sure he can?


by feat, i can't prove that he can, but i sure wouldn't doubt it. just saying...


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Mar 6, 2013)

Mokuton Dragon can't do anything to Naruto now that he has knowledge. All he has to do is stay away from it with his speed and take it out from long range with bijuudama, and if he does get caught in it somehow all he has to do is shunshin out of it and recreate his bijuu cloak again. Its that simple. 

Plus, Naruto doesn't even have to bother with the dragon. Minato could warp it off the battlefield with Hiraishin, and doesn't even have to worry about his chakra reserves thanks to the boost from Naruto.

Once again, people are acting as if BM Naruto is the only one in this match against Hashi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 6, 2013)

Minato and Naruto win with extremely high difficulty. Naruto alone could give Hashirama, even with his Sage Mode, an extremely tough fight due to the brokeness of Biju Mode, his own Sage Mode, his clones, and his summoning. With Minato-who alone could give base Hashirama a fight with just his sheer speed, getting a power up from Naruto via the Chakra Transfer Technique?


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## Lurko (Mar 6, 2013)

No just no, hashi in sage mode would destroy naruto badly.


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## Lurko (Mar 6, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I'd say this depends on how much of a boost does Minato get when he gets some of Kurama chakra, in the speed department as well as how fast Hashi's reactions are along with how long Hashi takes before going into Sage Mode. Its arguable whether Hashi could react to Minato's speed alone but add in Kurama's enhancing speed, which Kakashi said 3 folds without the cloak and with the cloak being a bit different, Minato speed might be to much to handle. Add in FTG along with BM Naruto to help take out some Mokuton without said Mokuton suppressing Naruto's charka, as of now I favor Team Naruto. Although in the next few chapters we're likely to see more of the Kages fighting so this outcome might change.



Great post,  great avatar and exactly what I was thinking,  I'm neutral who wins here, minato +his ninetails chalra is just crazy powerful.


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## ueharakk (Mar 7, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> ok who cares.


um, obviously if that is true then kurama firing a smaller bijuudama would yield a smaller explosion.  And since you are trying to give a bijuudama the feats of a much larger one fired by the same kurama, then you obviously should care because this decides whether your argument stands or not.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> since when is the size of bijudama>what we see in the explosion.


The size of a bijuudama is proportional to the size of the explosion.  The bijuudama that the kyuubi used in VoTe was as large as the ones neo pain's used, thus the explosion would be roughly as large.  The one the kyuubi used against minato was much larger hence the much larger explosion.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the kyuubis tbb has already been shown to cover more than 1 mountain unlike the other biju. what are you trying to prove?


That is a kyuubi TBB that is far larger than the one he used in VoTe which is why the resulting blast radius was far larger. Once again the size of a TBB indicates its destructive power and not every dama fired from the same bijuu is equal, they can make bigger ones and smaller ones.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> as i said before, the kyuubis bijudama have the feats of destroying more than one mountain.


Yes, and that's because that's a kyuubi bijuudama that is far bigger than the one that was used in VoTe.  
You are now blatantly ignoring scans that PROVE that the dama the kyuubi used in VoTe was both equal in size and blast to the ones that neo pain used.  If the kyuubi's VoTe dama was much bigger or more powerful than neo pain's then why did the area it destroy only equal the area that the neo pain's bijuudamas destroyed?  Why don't you address the logic of the scans that I posted showing how big the blast radius's are by comparing them to bee and VoTe kurama?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> did you forget that madaras perfect susano cut a mountain then shockwave went & cut 2 more mountains after that?


It cut the meteor which is far smaller than high end mountains, and the shockwave cut 2 mountains standing side by side which means its penetrative force is 1 meteor and 1 mountain.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except PS alrady cut through multiple mountains & when i bring this up you jump on madaras statement which doesnt help your point regardless.


And I've already shown that vaporizing a mountain takes far more power than what it takes to cut the top off of one, and thus Madara stating that a slash is on par with a standard bijuudama is true.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> they both destroy mountains. what do you want? also the swords of PS can* slice through bijudama which proves its superiority over it.*


So you are blatantly ignoring the fact that cutting a mountain =/= destroying a mountain, and the fact that it takes far more power to vaporize a mountain vs cut one. 

When madara cut the mountain against the 5 kage, did the mountain disappear?  No it's still there, its just a bit shorter, when the neo pains blasted the mountains are the mountains still there? No, they become craters. 

And at the bolded.  How in the world does a PS sword being able to slice through an undetonated bijuudama mean that the slash is more powerful than the blast?  That's like saying because you can slice a nuclear warhead in half with a sword, your sword possesses more power than the nuclear warhead.

And even then, it's not proven that the sword can slice the bijuudama in half, all it did was stab a dama, while the sword was in it, the dama didn't explode or lose its constitution.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> until i see an individual biju vaporizing 6 mountains at once it isnt.


Once again vaporizing a mountain >>>>> cutting one.  All six of the mountains that Madara cut are still standing after he cuts them, while a bijuudama erases the mountain it hits.  Anyone looking at this objectively would agree.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> when you disregard canon for some fanon made up scenario, its basically concessionary.


I am not disregarding canon at all.  It's not canon that Naruto will opt to do the same actions against the same jutsu every time especially after he knows what will happen.  You on the other hand can't even give a reason why naruto wouldn't nuke the dragon and thus concede the argument.

And in no way am I making up a scenario.  Making up a scenario would be controlling multiple actions of both characters.  The only thing that I am arguing is that rapidfire bijuudama would bust the dragon, and that Naruto would use it given the knowledge he has.  That is not a made up scenario, that is simply listing a jutsu naruto has that easily counters Hashirama's technique.

It's along the same lines as saying oonoki would use jinton to bust susanoo or kakashi would use raikiri to kill someone.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> im not sure how this changes how madara told naruto everything about the dragon & he still failed.


Madara in no way shape or form told naruto everything about the dragon.  Naruto didn't even know it suppresses chakra, or absorbs chakra, or how physically strong it is, how durable it is to his bites.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> that was the hachibi that commented that the wood paralysis was just like hashiramas & naruto even said "just like captain yamato".


yeah, Naruto and Bee notice that its just like captain yamatos AFTER fighting the technique, which means before it, they did not have that knowledge



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> not if we go by canon feats.




mokuton dragon was destroyed by a bijuudama merely passing through it.  Unless you argue that a FRS when it explodes is weaker than an unexploded bijuudama, it follows that the FRS destroys the dragon.  

Bee's bijuudama, tons of Kyuubi powered slicing techniques failed to cut the juubi's tails, yet a FRS did just that.  Based on canon feats, the FRS cuts the dragon.

Now that you've seen my argument for FRS destroying mokuryu, what is your arguments that say FRS doesn't destroy/defeat mokuryu?



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> he couldnt do anything to stop it even with knowledge so the mokuryu is forever>BM naruto.


naruto only knew the technique bound the kyuubi in the past.  It did not know how it would fair against his BM.  Now that he has full knowledge on what will happen to him if he wrestles with it, there is no reason for him to do so, and thus he simply nukes it.  

Going by your logic, Madara will always get cut in half by V1 Lee if lee tries to kick him, Kakashi will always trick itachi with the same bunshin feint over and over again, Kakuzu will always fall for bunshin feint rasengan, Sasuke will always die 2 times if he fights Bee etc.  Debate honestly.  If you can't even come up with a reason for Naruto doing an action, then its concessionary.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> yes the bold is what happened in canon. naruto didnt wait for the dragon to eat his cloak. it was forcibly ripped from him. naruto cant put up a fight against the mokuryu without full kyuubi BM.


The dragon took pages to rip naruto's full BM cloak and Naruto shunshined while the cloak was still around him.  Naruto has deactivated the full BM cloak in a panel before, there is no reason for him to just stay in the dragon and let it rip his chakra.  The moment the dragon starts draining the cloak, Naruto will bust its face off with a flash shunshin.

And naruto absolutely does not need full BM to put up a fight against Mokuryu, not when the technique is so weak it gets destroyed by a bijuudama merely passing through it.  A direct hit by FRS would cut the dragon in half based on its feats.


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## Corax (Mar 7, 2013)

Team matches with BM Naruto are unfair as he can up another teammate chakra pool by 3х+. They are almost as unfair as team matches with Gedo Rinne Tensei (Nagato). Hashirama has no chance at all. Even slightest chance. Give him someone that can negate chakra advantage to even things out (someone with chakra absorption ability).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 7, 2013)

Bijuu suppression jutsu is banned.  

Hashirama's ability to make a wood dragon and let it casually float around to solo is not.  Nor is the fact that wood still eats chakra, so they're still weak to wood.

SM also gives Hashirama super sensing and danger alerts, and a speed boost.  Since he was easily reacting to everything serious mode Madara backed by Kyuubi threw at him, and casual mode Madara messed gated Guy up worse in one off panel minute than he suffered from three days of continuous fighting (even against 6 full bijuu and the Gedo Mazo) I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Hashirama won't be lolblitzed.  

In fact, Minato was stunned by Hashirama's chakra flair despite being married to Kushina, so Minato at three times power still isn't anywhere close to Hashirama level, let alone in Sage Mode.  He can probably run away though to his bunkers.

Anyway, with all the not dying Hashirama is doing, he is eventually, perhaps rather quickly, have enough of the warping about, and is going to mass terrain change the battlefield(s) into being his forest, complete with the spores of instant sleep powder, and without knowledge, Minato and Naruto are going to breath that whenever they come back to battle.  Or they can breathe it, and warp home to fall asleep there, but then Hashirama will use that absurd global SM chakra sensing to find their location, and go kill them, or make that place spore city too before killing them.

Hashi can also meld into his giant anti-bijuu forest and be undetectable amongst his own chakra, so even trying to warp stuff on top of him is useless if you don't know where he is.

*Hashirama wins*


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## Corax (Mar 7, 2013)

Hashirama has no SM sensing feats. Let alone SM Naruto lvl. His jutsu are slow so this is another reason why he has no chance vs 3x+ Minato and BM Naruto. He can spam his useless big statues and slow Moktuon roots all day but really one jutsu that matters is Mokuton pollen and it is kinda slow also (pollen is carried by wind). I see no reason why they should lose to it as Minato for sure is smart enough to not breath strange pollen,even Naruto is,and unlike C4 it  is perfectly visible.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 7, 2013)

Latest chapter confirmed that Hashirama had some sensing ability as a child, and Naruto and Kabuto both got crazy good sensing in their sage mode.  Naruto could see all of the battlefield from the turtle, through 12 barriers or something, and he was as far from a sensor before Sage training as P1 Sakura was from useful.  Kabuto was also able to fight two high level shinobi with his eyes closed because of sage sensing.

The newly retconned god of shinobi, who was at least somewhat sense-sational, with a sensor brother at 10, getting a mode that cannonically gives people with no talent incredible sensing while massively boosting all of your abilities can probably sense whatever he feels like.  We have to make these sort of leaps for characters that barely have any feats.  (Though in fairness, any feats Hashirama does have are completely broken)

As for the pollen, so what if it's slow?  It's the entire battlefield.  Madara's knockoff ability covered an area wide enough to give the Gokage each their own regular sized battlefield to fight 5 of his clones, and they didn't even take up an 10th of the total area.  We never even saw the limits of his tree growth, because from what I recall anyway, every time the panels zoomed out, all we saw was more forest.  That sort of growth isn't slow, and it's going to wreck all the tags and kunai that Minato had set up.  That was also done without a sage boost.  

Being smart isn't an issue.  The issue is they literally can't go back to the battlefield without breathing any in.  Anywhere they go they port into spore city.  If he sets this up while they're on vacation, they pop in and go, "Wow, there a forest now." and fall asleep.  It's already too late.

The moment he feel like it, Hashirama can take complete and total control of the battlefield and there's nothing Minaruto can do about it.  That's not even going into his ability to meld and use clones....which makes him eternally untouchable and undetectable and able to fight by proxy for....ever.  Even if he ran low on his god reserves, he can camp 100 miles underground, and gather sage energy in the nano-second it takes him to reach it, and that restores all of his physical and mental energy.  Naruto's got....8 minutes.


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## Corax (Mar 7, 2013)

It didnt cover entire battlefield path (here kages are only slightly above the branches and are perfectly fine). Pollen actually covers only the bottom of the forest. And kages easily avoided it in 1 panel. Naruto has a bird so at absolutely worst he and Minato can pull kages 1 panel counter. It is a bit too much to say that 1 jutsu can beat Naruto and Minato despite them having perfect counters to it.


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## ueharakk (Mar 7, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> As for the pollen, so what if it's slow?  It's the entire battlefield.  Madara's knockoff ability covered an area wide enough to give the Gokage each their own regular sized battlefield to fight 5 of his clones, and they didn't even take up an 10th of the total area.  We never even saw the limits of his tree growth, because from what I recall anyway, every time the panels zoomed out, all we saw was more forest.  That sort of growth isn't slow, and it's going to wreck all the tags and kunai that Minato had set up.  That was also done without a sage boost.


rapidfire bijuudama, normal or super clears flower tree world 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Being smart isn't an issue.  The issue is they literally can't go back to the battlefield without breathing any in.  Anywhere they go they port into spore city.  If he sets this up while they're on vacation, they pop in and go, "Wow, there a forest now." and fall asleep.  It's already too late.


BM cloak like susanoo should protect Naruto and Minato from pollen and gaseous hazards.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The moment he feel like it, Hashirama can take complete and total control of the battlefield and there's nothing Minaruto can do about it.  That's not even going into his ability to meld and use clones....which makes him eternally untouchable and undetectable and able to fight by proxy for....ever.  Even if he ran low on his god reserves, he can camp 100 miles underground, and gather sage energy in the nano-second it takes him to reach it, and that restores all of his physical and mental energy.  Naruto's got....8 minutes.


clones don't make him untouchable and undetectable against emotion sensing.

100 miles underground?

Hashi's sage energy gathering is no better than naruto's best feats.

Against Hirashin, 8 minutes is a very long time.


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## Corax (Mar 7, 2013)

Also about time limit. It isn't clear for how much Hashirama could maintain his SM. Naruto can for 5,and he is really experienced at it.


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## U mad bro (Mar 7, 2013)

Naruto would have a better thsn Madara imo opinion.  You really cant sleep on how he uses his clones. He seems more versatile than Madara. Makes it hard to tag the real one. Then you add Minato who can essentially bypass Harishima attacks all together if he scatters his kunai correctly. Close fight either way.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Mar 7, 2013)

In what screwed up circumstances could Hashirama beat Just minato much less both him and naruto?
Hashirama can create huge jutsu, has limited regeneration, brute strength, SM and buddha summon, but average reflexes and speed for a Kage.

And Against Minato who can literally attack you instantly, Hashirama is not going to last very long. Although his limited regeneration will help him some. It will not stop Minato for long who can just dismember hashirama which is something not even tsunade's regeneration could overcome. So Hashirama will not last long!

And Without any way to hit Minato with his speed, All of hashirama's power, strength, ect.... Means nothing. A Buddha summon or a damn banana. Both are equally useless against minato with his ability to move miles apart and back as well as attack in an instant...

At best, Hashirama can last longer then most with his regeneration and power.
Naruto though, He is not going to be able to beat Hashirama without the FTG like minato. AT best he can give hashirama a battle of power and hashirama can suppress him (the kyuubi) while producing power on about the same level with his own SM.


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## Dr. White (Mar 7, 2013)

Super powered Minato and BM Naruto will be zipping around the battlefield, being the greatest ninja that ever lived with Sage Mode he will be hardpressed to fight htem off with onslaughts of Mokuton creatures and soldiers. Bringer of Darkness could also be a very hard jutsu to overcome but with their speed and Kurama there I could see them pulling it off. Eventually this will come down to Naruto spamming TBB's anf FRS's while Minato tries to get close and end Hashirama with a Kurama powered blitz.

Blond Duo take it 8/10 High -Extreme Diff if 1,000 Hands is banned


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## Jak N Blak (Mar 7, 2013)

As if Naruto can't solo.


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