# Strongest 'Base' Forms?



## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

Base = No type of mode/shroud/armor used to increase physical strength, speed, durability, destructive capabilities, &/or range. 

EoS = End of series

3T = 3 Tomoe Sharingan



base Ei (Fourth Raikage)
base Bee
base Sakura (EoS)
base Tsunade 
base Jiraiya
base Minato
base Gai
3T Kakashi (pre-DMS bullshit)
3T Madara (VotE)
3T Itachi
3T Obito (War Arc)
base Naruto (EoS/Boruto film)
base Hashirama (VotE)

Didn't include Sasuke since his Rinnegan is always active.

Rank them from most to least powerful overall.


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## Sword of the Morning (Aug 14, 2015)

3 Tomoe is not base, so I'll rank the Uchiha without any Sharingan.

1. Base Hashirama
2. Base Adult Naruto
3. Base Minato
4. Base Jiraiya
5. Base Ei
6. Base Madara
7. Base Bee
8. Base Kakashi
9. Base Obito
10. Base Itachi
11. Base Gai

Reasons: Hokage Naruto has shown no feats in base that rank him over Base Hashirama. If you are allowing Kurama to continuously give Naruto chakra in base (like he did to counter Madaras Mokuton) then they switch places.

Base Minato is the strongest none Ridoku powered character in the series behind Base Hashirama when it comes to Base forms.

Jiraiya would be superior to Ei in base. Yumi Numa, Boss Summons, gargantuan Katons, giant Rasengans, shadow clones etc.

Base Ei would beat base Madara. He took zero damage from Maubis Ethereal Transfer and I think the heat caused by light speed friction is far more than what Madaras Katon can produce. Madara can't control Kyuubi in base, he needs Sharingan, and that's not base so he doesn't get it here.

Bee would lose to Madara and his Katons. Bee only beats Kakashi because of no sharingan and lack of Raikiri usage. Kakashi beats Obito has he did in canon. Obito beats Itachi and Itachi beats Gai.


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## Bonly (Aug 14, 2015)

Naruto
Hashi
Minato
Madara
Obito
Itachi
Jiraiya
Kakashi
B
Gai
A


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

> 3 Tomoe is not base, so I'll rank the Uchiha without any Sharingan.



It doesn't directly improve any attributes listed in my opening post, nor does it provide abilities that do.

Basic sharingan is permitted.



> If you are allowing Kurama to continuously give Naruto chakra in base (like he did to counter Madaras Mokuton) then they switch places.





			
				OP said:
			
		

> Base = No type of *mode/shroud/armor* used to increase physical strength, speed, durability, destructive capabilities, &/or range



Accumulating chakra for larger-scale jutsu is entirely different from a transformation. It's allowed.


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## ~M~ (Aug 14, 2015)

No Tsunade?


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## Sword of the Morning (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> It doesn't directly improve any attributes listed in my opening post, nor does it provide abilities that do.
> 
> Basic sharingan is permitted.
> 
> Accumulating chakra for larger-scale jutsu is entirely different from a transformation. It's allowed.



Base Itachi would not be able to even touch Bee and would get completely shit wrecked in a taijutsu/kenjutsu fight with him but with Sharingan he anticipates Bees moves and can evade them because he can see them before it happens and it allows him to copy techniques, cast visual Genjutsu  on him and even use shit like Izanagi and Izanami on him. If you don't consider that an "improvement" of ones abilities your understanding of the manga is horribly wrong.

Base is literally what it means. Uchiha Sharingan isn't active by default, they activate it, which means its not base. Not hard to understand.


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## Raiken (Aug 14, 2015)

Probably Hashirama, his Base is ridiculous.
Although is it fair to count Mokuton as Base?


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

> No Tsunade?



Does Byakugō grant her anything besides efficient regeneration?



> Probably Hashirama, his Base is ridiculous.
> Although is it fair to count Mokuton as Base?



Yes.


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## ~M~ (Aug 14, 2015)

> A seal which is reputed to be the pinnacle of chakra control.[1] By storing a vast amounts of chakra over an extended period of time into a specific point on their body — usually the forehead — the user creates this seal, which manifests in the form of a rhombus-like marking. Once the seal is formed, the user's already impressive chakra control allows them to perform techniques without any wasted energy.[3] When released, the seal will either spread across the user's face or wrap around their entire body. *The stored chakra is then released into their body, greatly amplifying the power of their techniques.*





> While very similar in nature to its parent technique, which also regenerates the user's wounds via accelerated cell division, the Strength of a Hundred Technique has a continuous, automatic effect that will heal any damage that the user sustains instantly without the need to make hand seals or even a conscious effort to activate the healing process as long as they have chakra left. The enhanced regeneration granted by this technique is so rapid that even the wounds that resulted from the impalement by two gigantic swords through Tsunade's abdomen were completely healed in mere moments after the blades' removals





> By Tsunade's own claim, as long as she has chakra it is impossible for her to die by any means, as such she gains a form of "immortality" throughout the duration of the technique.



It's the release of god knows how much stored chakra she's stored and makes her immortal so it's quite a leap from her base form 

It's her essential sage mode


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

> Base is literally what it means. Uchiha Sharingan isn't active by default, they activate it, which means its not base. Not hard to understand.



Sharingan allows one to anticipate and mimic movement through vigilant observation. Everything beyond that is up to their own physical conditioning. 

Enhanced visual perception isn't a mode that augments the body's performance in numerous ways.


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> > *The stored chakra is then released into their body, greatly amplifying the power of their techniques.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Alrighty, added.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

1) base Naruto (EoS/Boruto film)
2) base Hashirama (VotE)    
3) base Minato
4) 3T Madara (VotE)
5) 3T Kakashi (pre-DMS bullshit)
6) 3T Obito (War Arc)
7) 3T Itachi
8) base Jiraiya
9) base Gai
10) base Bee
11) base Sakura (EoS)
12) base Tsunade
13) base Ei (Fourth Raikage)


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## J★J♥ (Aug 14, 2015)

Itachi without sharingan above Guy ? Are you people fucked in the head ? Itachi needs to go all out and die to put up fight against base Guy.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

J★J♥ said:


> Itachi without sharingan above Guy ? Are you people fucked in the head ? Itachi needs to go all out and die to put up fight against base Guy.



3T Itachi on a general level I think it's above base Gai, even if in a 1 vs 1 fight I'd favor Gai. Base Itachi (no Sharingan) compared to base Gai yeah it's definitely under him, be it on a general level or 1 vs 1.


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## J★J♥ (Aug 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> 3T Itachi on a general level I think it's above base Gai, even if in a 1 vs 1 fight I'd favor Gai. Base Itachi (no Sharingan) compared to base Gai yeah it's definitely under him, be it on a general level or 1 vs 1.



Only way for Itachi to not bet brutally Murdered against Base guy is instant Susano'o even then he wont be able to Tag guy and his stamina runs out very fast. 

To stay alive in presence of Guy he needs to slowly killhimself.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

1) base Minato

Has extreme speed. Some of the most powerful/broken sealing jutsu in the manga. S/T broken thing to dodge or redirect any coming attack. Highly skilled with tools, and great intelligence/analysing abilities. 

2- Base Narudo.

Based on the last he can throw FRS with 1 hand, and even control its direction. That's the main reason he is above
Hashirama because the FRS should be able to cut throw his wood like butter with no problem 


2) base Hashirama (VotE) 

since he is more or less the same as SM Hashirama, but I assume he can't use his Buddha in base?

4) 3T Madara (VotE)

His genjutsu and high scale Fire Jutsu in addition to some other shits... 

5) base Jiraiya

He has many different attacks, and was stated to be too far apart from Kisame, and itachi's superior. This should
put him well above the rest of this list 

6) base Sakura (EoS)


assuming she can hit as hard as she did the Juubi's clones. I don't know if that count as part of the seal feat
or not tho. 

7) base Tsunade

same as above

8) base Ei (Fourth Raikage)

Zetsu stated that A was fast even without his lightning armour, and we saw how his body is extremely powerful
as well (survived the teleportation jutsu without a scratch) 

9) 3T Obito (War Arc)

Mainly his huge ass Fire jutsu that he used against Madara I suppose?



> 5) 3T Kakashi
> 7) 3T Itachi
> 9) base Gai
> 10) base Bee


I think those 4 are more or less on the same level here.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Aug 14, 2015)

I'm also don't count sharingan as base either. It comes with too many enhancement to consider it a base ability. It's feels like a mode to me,  since it's an activation kind of thing. I'll include them anyway though. 

Anyway:

1. Hashirama
2. Minato 
3. Naruto 
4. Madara
5. Jiraya
6. Bee
7. Kakashi 
8. Obito 
9. Itachi 
10. Ei 
11. Gai
12. Tsunade 
13. Sakura


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## ~M~ (Aug 14, 2015)

I really don't think Tsunade is below Gai you guys 

Tsunade at base lifts the giant blade of Gamabunta with ease, can create an earth fissure with a single finger, has huge chakra reserves, boss summon 

Gai is around the bottom of this list frankly.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> I really don't think Tsunade is below Gai you guys
> 
> Tsunade at base lifts the giant blade of Gamabunta with ease, can create an earth fissure with a single finger, has huge chakra reserves, boss summon
> 
> Gai is around the bottom of this list frankly.



Base Gai handled Obito's Kamui phasing/warp touching in CQC far better than Minato did. Minato was captured by young Obito's chain and had to use Hiraishin to dodge (1) (and at that point he already knew that his opponent was able to phase through attacks), base Gai could jump in a fight between adult Obito and KCM Naruto saving Naruto at the last moment (2) and fending off Obito that couldn't literally put a finger to him due to Gai's reflexes and taijutsu skill (3)(4)(5). He countered Obito's CQC Kamui and even took the luxury to fight off Obito with his back turned. Obito was making child's play of KCM Naruto.

Base Gai could react to Obito's Kamui warp (of one of his nunchaku) and move during the time of the warp (Minato barely managed to activate Hiraishin and teleport away in the same time) (6).

Gates enhance physical speed and strength by removing the body's limiters, they don't enhance reflexes. Base Gai is able to react to his own speed in Gates, even 6th (that blitzes Kisame and counterblitzes Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki) and 7th Gate (that pressures Juudara far more than SM Minato did), and even 8th Gate too (that blitzes Juudara and even reaches a speed high enough that his movement bends the surrounding space).

Gai's base strength casually destroys concrete (7)(8) and with his nunchaku he literallu pulverizes giant boulders like they were nothing, impressing Obito (9). His skill is such that he can disarm Kisame from the Samehada using his fucking legs (10); please note that the Shoten clone wasn't Kisame at 30% of his general power, but Kisame with the same strength, jutsu, speed, smartness, durability and whatever the original had, he just had 30% of the chakra of the true Kisame.

His speed, reflexes and physical strength are over the roof even in base, obviously he is not as fast and powerful as he is with Gates, not to mention the special taijutsu moves he can use with the Gates.

Base Gai casually kicks around Tsunade, Sakura, base Bee or base Ei.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Aug 14, 2015)

em senpai said:


> I really don't think Tsunade is below Gai you guys
> 
> Tsunade at base lifts the giant blade of Gamabunta with ease, can create an earth fissure with a single finger, has huge chakra reserves, boss summon
> 
> Gai is around the bottom of this list frankly.


I admit it was hard deciding which of those two are stronger.  Tsunade is more powerful by far. But Gai has the speed and combat ability to counter her.  Hence why I put tsunade below.


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## ~M~ (Aug 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Gates enhance physical speed and strength by removing the body's limiters, they don't enhance reflexes.* Base Gai is able to react to his own speed in Gates, even 6th (that blitzes Kisame and counterblitzes Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki) and 7th Gate (that pressures Juudara far more than SM Minato did), and even 8th Gate too (that blitzes Juudara and even reaches a speed high enough that his movement bends the surrounding space).


Um evidence of the bolded? That makes no logical sense in any way an increase in speed in every aspect of your movement increases your reaction time: your reaction is perceived by your brain far before your body reacts and the limit is the speed of your body. Are you saying his brain slows down when the gates open? No. There is no evidence of this claim. 



> Gai's base strength casually destroys concrete (7)(8) and with his nunchaku he literallu pulverizes giant boulders like they were nothing, impressing Obito (9). His skill is such that he can disarm Kisame from the Samehada using his fucking legs (10); please note that the Shoten clone wasn't Kisame at 30% of his general power, but Kisame with the same strength, jutsu, speed, smartness, durability and whatever the original had, he just had 30% of the chakra of the true Kisame.


Again, Tsunade created a fissure in the ground of apparent stone or concrete with a single finger. This is a more difficult feat as the ground has resistance in the mass below it whereas a boulder has only air around it. Furthermore Tsunade can crush rock with a bare fist, 

Her single kicks are just as powerful as Gai's at base 10
Punches as well 
10
Gamabunta's knife easily weighs as much as 1/100 of a skyscraper 





> Taking all these into account, an average skyscraper weighs around 222,500 tons according to the records


so 2,000 tons likely. 



> His speed, reflexes and physical strength are over the roof even in base, obviously he is not as fast and powerful as he is with Gates, not to mention the special taijutsu moves he can use with the Gates.


Tsunade even without releasing The Hundred Seal has incredible regenerative powers and a boss summon that heals as well. Her durability is far greater than his speed, and her destruction is higher. 

Is base guy mountain level? Tsunade is just below it. 



> Base Gai casually kicks around Tsunade, Sakura, base Bee or base Ei.


Tsunade is not on these guys level base


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

1. Hashirama (confirmed by DB4 to be an equal combatant to 100% Kurama in base)
2. Minato
3. Naruto / 3T Madara

Don't really care about the others. I might list them later.


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## Raiken (Aug 14, 2015)

The Undying said:


> 1. Hashirama (confirmed by DB4 to be an equal combatant to 100% Kurama in base)
> 2. Minato
> 3. Naruto / 3T Madara
> 
> Don't really care about the others. I might list them later.


I'd put Tobirama higher than Minato personally, but that's just me.

He has FTG combat skill comparable to Minato's but with a lot of powerful Suiton on top, while Minato has more expertise in Fuinjutsu and using special barriers with his FTG.

Can the usage of Raiton Armour be classified as Base, and what about powerful people like Muu and the 2nd Mizukage, they are just "base" right?


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> I'd put Tobirama higher than Minato personally, but that's just me.



Tobirama wasn't on the list. I personally rank them as being in the same ballpark though.

Also, people are underestimating the hell out of base Tsunade.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Base Naruto 
Base Hashirama 
Base Madara 
Base Minato
Base Itachi
Base Obito  
Base Kakashi
Base Bee
Base A
Base Jiraiya
Base Tsunade 
Base Sakura 
Base Gai


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## thechickensage (Aug 14, 2015)

Sharingan should NOT count as base, sorry OP


@strategoob
Base Gai below Sakura?

Bijuu-less Bee could lose to Gateless Gai...i think...since most (all) of Bee's good moves come from being a jinchuriki

A is FOR SURE above B if you discount the hachibi

AND HOW IS OBITO ABOVE ANYONE ON YOUR LIST?  With no sharingan, every other person on the list except sakura beats Obito easily....and maybe even war arc sakura wins

and no-sharingan kakashi would never beat A or B or Jiraiya or Tsunade​


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## ~M~ (Aug 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Base Naruto
> Base Hashirama
> Base Madara
> Base Minato
> ...


Wow you need to reevaluate Jiraiya his ninjutsu game is tops


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

Hashirama beat everyone in base when he wasn't even a base fighter.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama beat everyone in base when he wasn't even a base fighter.



not sure if I understand you here, but are you perhaps talking about his Wood for being a KKG?


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## Alex Payne (Aug 14, 2015)

Something like that, I guess

base Hashirama (VotE)
base Naruto (EoS/Boruto film)

base Minato
3T Madara (VotE)

3T Obito (War Arc)
3T Kakashi (pre-DMS greatness)
3T Itachi
base Jiraiya
base Katsuyu-users

base Ei (Fourth Raikage)
base Bee
base Gai


People outside the first group are fairly close so they can easily beat each other in select group depending on conditions/knowledge. Base Hashirama>Base Hokage Naruto imo. Naruto is more about Biju/Sage Mode unlike Shodai. Not sure about Madara. Is he allowed to summon Kyubi?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Base = No type of mode/shroud/armor used to increase physical strength, speed, durability, destructive capabilities, &/or range.
> 
> EoS = End of series
> 
> ...



1. Base Hashirama
2. Base Minato
3. 3T Madara = 3T Kakashi
4. 3T Itachi
5. Base Jiraiya
6. 3T Obito
7. Base Gai
8. Base Bee
9. Base Naruto (EoS, haven't seen any films)
10. Base Tsunade
11. Base Sakura (EoS)
12. Base Ei

Base Hashirama has the strongest skill-set among them all and the most versatility so I figured he had the nod but Minato isn't far w/Hiraishin. This my change depending on if Hashirama can use the Buddha thing without SM? But even though, Hashirama still has an overwhelming gap in experience. At best, I could put the two in a tie.

It was hard to rank the 3T versions of these characters since they are all in the same relative speed/strength/expertise category. It all came down to just their respective arsenals with Kakashi/Madara having the best displays, Obito having the least impressive arsenal of the four and Itachi somewhere in between. 

Honestly, haven't seen anything from Base Naruto that warrants him being put ahead of the other guys mentioned. Then again, I haven't seen the movie so I'm just basing this on the end of the series.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

Hashirama
Madara
Minato
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Naruto
Obito
A
Bee
Gai
Itachi
Sakura
Kakashi

Haven't seen Naruto do anything too high tier without some power up.
Itachi and Kakashi have MS stuff that puts them high tier.


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## Mercurial (Aug 14, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Hashirama
> Madara
> Minato
> Jiraiya
> ...



Feats without Kamui:

- Feints and tricks Itachi with the utmost ease
- Fends off both Hidan and Kakuzu together fighting one and dodging the other's moves while watching and protecting team 10, all this with a injured arm
- Fights Pain's strongest body (by far) plus Pain's second strongest body, understands Pain's power, tricks and corner Pain not once but twice, coming an inch to kill Pain, being hindered by other people who tried to help him (if the Akimichi didn't attack Deva who easily dodged them, Kakashi would have killed Deva with a silent Raikiri blitz like he did with Kakuzu; Deva just used his gravitational power and was completely unaware of Kakashi's location afte the Raiton Kage Bunshin feint and Asura was paralyzed).
- Stomps Zabuza and the other Hidden Mist Swordsmen
- Fends off Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki, counterblitzes and lands Raikiri on them, fights them for an extended period of time, his 3T + advanced Raiton applied to CQC is basically on par with Gated Gai (mind that the same V2 jinchuriki were kicking Killer B and KCM Naruto's ass)
- Bests Obito in a no MS vs no MS fight

Skills without Kamui:

- Smartness: maybe the smartest fighter in the series for analytical and tactical skills
- Speed: one of the greatest speedsters, someone who is able to outspeed Obito who casually keeps up with no Shunshin KCM Naruto who is at the very least as fast as Itachi and V1 Ei, to land Raikiri on Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 keeping up with Gated Gai
- CQC/taijutsu: a speedster who adds Sharingan precognition and Raikiri and Raikiri flow to his skilled taijutsu, spars and trains with Gai, owns the Seven Sworsmen at their game with a sword he just picked up, outperforms Obito, easily keeps at bay Hidan, negs Zabuza, can add ninjutsu and genjutsu to his taijutsu for a deadly CQC
- Ninjutsu: Raikiri, Raiden (Raikiri power x2), Raikiri extended to chase the enemy on mid range with Raijuu Tsuiga, Raikiri in the weapons, Rasengan, Raiton Kage Bunshin and Kage Bunshin top notch feints that tricked Itachi and Pain, powerful Suiton (Daibafuku, Suiryodan, Suikodan, Suijinheki) that he can combo with Raiton, Doton: Doryuheki for defense and Moguragakure for quick hiding and underground travelling to evade attacks and set up surprise moves, Doton combo'd with ninken, 1000 jutsu arsenal, 5 elements mastery.
- Genjutsu: on par with Obito's who can control a jinchuriki plus his Bijuu, kill Konan and mantain under control Fu and Torune for a long time; with part 1 feats already he can casually mindrape people of Zabuza's level (and there are a lot of people who are far stronger than Zabuza and still with no reason to are rated better than he is in genjutsu) and make people like Gai create a whole new fighting style just to avoid getting caught in one of his Sharingan genjutsu
- Strength/endurance: casually wields the Kubikirihocho with one hand for hours (Suigetsu needed to create a giant arm to do that), casually makes the highly durable Obito spit blood with a couple of punches, casually tanks a Domu enhanced kick from Kakuzu that makes him fly for metres and destroy a couple, or more, giant trees (mind how a punch from Kakuzu could destroy a giant steel door enhanced with a defensive seal and usually a kick is stronger or a punch from the same person), tanks three Shinra Tensei from Pain without losing consciousness from the third when the third was powerful enough to one-shot Choza, someone who is durable enough to withstand Asuma's Katon: Haisekisho like it's nothing
- Chakra: without forgetting that he is not a pure blood Uchiha so using the Sharingan drains more chakra than the usual from him and using the Mangekyo Sharingan with Kamui is even more taxing than how it already is, he was able to use five times the Mangekyo Sharingan plus two times Raiden, four times Raikiri and two times the Kage Bunshin, before needing his chakra to be recharged

Kakashi is a complete ninja who has some of the best basic ninja arts and base ninja skills. Since he lacks great raw power, Kishimoto decided to bless him with great hax. But like it or not, Kamui is his trump card, not his bread and butter. Minato for example can do very little against strong characters without Hiraishin; Kakashi can do much, even if to win most times he will need his trump card, Kamui. Outperform Jiraiya, Bee, Ei, Tsunade and Sakura it's not a difficult thing for him and he can defeat Itachi, Obito and Gai too. Minato risks a lot because a successful Raiton Kage Bunshin feint can be his end.

Even if not as impressive, Itachi is also incredibly skilled with Sharingan and non Sharingan genjutsu, CQC with Sharingan precognition and genjutsu, great speed, skilled taijutsu, high speed hand seals for Katon and Suiton ninjutsu and clone techniques, shurikenjutsu, not to mention his smartness. He easily shits on Ei, Tsunade, Sakura and Bee. Jiraiya gets blitzed, he is too slow.


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

Gonna post my full list now since I have some time:

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Adult Naruto (at most) / 3T Madara
4. Jiraiya
5. Adult Naruto (at least)
6. Tsunade
7. 3T Obito / 3T Kakashi / 3T Itachi (non-healthy)
8. Ei / Bee / Gai
9. Sakura

3Ts were the most difficult to rank for me so I kind of slapped them all together. Hopefully there's another databook with actual stats in the future.


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## Tarot (Aug 14, 2015)

1. Hashirama
2. Minato
3. Naruto
4. Madara
5. Jiraiya
6. Sakura/Tsunade
7. Killer Bee
8. Kakashi
9. Ay
10. Itachi
11. Obito
12. Guy

Why is 3t Obito being ranked so high? He has good taijutsu and genjutsu skill yeah, but he's not that impressive in terms of ninjutsu. Besides Kamui, all he's really shown are some katon, mokuton, and doton and a barrier jutsu.
Edit: I just remembered he can use 10 minute izanagi.


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## Reznor (Aug 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Feats without Kamui:
> 
> - Feints and tricks Itachi with the utmost ease
> - Fends off both Hidan and Kakuzu together fighting one and dodging the other's moves while watching and protecting team 10, all this with a injured arm
> ...



I'm counting base as no sharigan usage.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 14, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Feats without Kamui:
> 
> - Feints and tricks Itachi with the utmost ease
> - Fends off both Hidan and Kakuzu together fighting one and dodging the other's moves while watching and protecting team 10, all this with a injured arm
> ...



Too much bullshit, nothing interesting or worth reading.. The ending statements were Funny though


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Hashirama
> *Madara*
> Minato
> Jiraiya
> ...





Reznor said:


> I*'m counting base as no sharigan usage*.



I am disappointed. 




Duhul10 said:


> Too much bullshit, nothing interesting or worth reading.. The ending statements were Funny though

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ScottofFury (Aug 14, 2015)

Prime Hiruzen >>>>>>> Everyone else


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## Kai (Aug 14, 2015)

Hashirama
Madara
Minato
Naruto
Obito
B
Itachi
Kakashi
Jiraiya
Sakura
Tsunade
A
Gai


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

1. Hashirama - Can drastically alter the landscape, a one-man anti-biju armory
2. Naruto/Madara - both can summon Kurama to aid them in battle

_-astronomical gap-_

4. Minato - extremely fast shunshin, Hiraishin, S/T Barrier, high intellect

_-significantly smaller gap-_

5. Jiraiya - versatile, can sink large enemies in a heartbeat
6. Obito - Juubi sized katons, Mokuton, passive regen
7.  Itachi - very fast, various genjutsu, unparalleled weapon skill, high intellect
8.  Killer Bee - seven sword style, Samahada, raiton proficiency 
9.  Kakashi - sharingan genjutsu, versatile, high intellect
10. Sakura/Tsunade - Katsuyu, insane strength
11. Gai - knocked down Gedo Mazo, fast, nunchaku 
12. Ei - blitzed a white zetsu



> Is he allowed to summon Kyubi?



Yes.



> 1. Hashirama
> 2. Minato
> 3. Adult Naruto (at most) / 3T Madara
> 4. Jiraiya
> ...



You're seriously underrating Naruto if you're placing Jiraiya over him.



> Sharingan should NOT count as base, sorry OP



It does ITT. Get over it.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> 1. Hashirama -* Can drastically alter the landscape*, a one-man anti-biju armory



Can't pre-time skip Gaara do the same tho? 
him
him

and Kisame as well. 
him
him
him

And Deidara, and Nagato.


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

On a level where Hashi operates? No...not even remotely close.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> On a level where Hashi operates? No...not even remotely close.



Not sure if serious. 

Do you think that this hole from Hashirama's strongest attack
him

is bigger than the entire Sand Village? 
him

Or that is bigger than 10KM that Deidara can do even tho Hashirama and Madara crossed it with 1 jump?
him


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 14, 2015)

Bijuu-rivaling Base:
base Naruto (EoS/Boruto film)
base Hashirama (VotE)
base Minato
3T Madara (VotE)
-
Base Elites
base Bee
base Jiraiya
base Tsunade
base Sakura (EoS)
-
Solid Base: 
3T Obito (War Arc)
3T Itachi
3T Kakashi (pre-DMS bullshit)
-
1-dimensional Base:
base Gai
base Ei (Fourth Raikage)


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

While at it Kyu, please tell me if you think the VOTE is also bigger than Konoha as well.


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> You're seriously underrating Naruto if you're placing Jiraiya over him.



Relax. It's just the least possible scenario, mainly the worst that a "rusty" version of Hokage Naruto could be. Also, my definition of base is different from yours; I don't really count summonings of any sort because at that point it's more of a tag team of two or more sentient individuals.

My other (best) Nardo is the one from The Last.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Thanks for my new sig


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 14, 2015)

base Hashirama (VotE)
3T Madara (VotE)
base Jiraiya
3T Obito (War fan & Mokuton)
3T Itachi
base Minato
base Tsunade
base Bee
3T Kakashi
base Gai
base Ei
base Sakura (EoS)


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

How the hell is Minato weaker the sharingan Obito, itachi, madara and base Jiraiya?


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

> Not sure if serious.
> 
> Do you think that this hole from Hashirama's strongest attack
> Can still treat early Part 2 Naruto's attack like trash



We have no idea what that crater was from; a lengthy amount of time had passed since the previous page. Those two had caused a great deal more destruction than one sizable hole in the ground.



> is bigger than the entire Sand Village?
> Can still treat early Part 2 Naruto's attack like trash


 I was unaware Gaara always has an entire village worth of sand at his disposal.

Even then, he got shat on.



> Relax. It's just the least possible scenario, mainly the worst that a "rusty" version of Hokage Naruto could be. Also, my definition of base is different from yours; I don't really count summonings of any sort because at that point it's more of a tag team of two or more sentient individuals



Jiraiya's fighting style revolves around summoning. 

He has far more to lose than Nardo if you remove them from the equation.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Aug 14, 2015)

Is Madara with kurama summoning being considered here? Because theres no way he should be top 3 unless he has summons.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

> [=Kyu;54176296]We have no idea what that crater was from; a lengthy amount of time had passed since the previous page. Those two had caused a great deal more destruction than one sizable hole in the ground.



Can still treat early Part 2 Naruto's attack like trash

It's obvious that it happened because of this attack. Actually, if we go with your assumption, it will be even worst because that would mean the hole needed much more power from them to be created.

Even tho it's obvious that they were out of breath and couldn't have used their strongest attacks again.  


> I was unaware Gaara always has an entire village worth of sand at his disposal.
> 
> Even then, he got shat on.


Which is irrelevant since he can create it as he did against Kimmimaro

- I don't care about "shat on" Kyu. 
I am talking about the size of the attack. 

waiting for your thought on Konoha's size compared to what Hashirama/Madara's attacks did.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Can still treat early Part 2 Naruto's attack like trash
> 
> It's obvious that it happened because of this attack. Actually, if we go with your assumption, it will be even worst because that would mean the hole needed much more power from them to be created.
> 
> ...


Don't understand how you can rate Base Naruto (EoS) > Base Jiraiya, when the former without his buffs from Kurama, SM and etc is probably as fast as Kakuzu (in the best case scenario) and still physically inferior.


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Jiraiya's fighting style revolves around summoning.



His fighting style includes Rasengan spam, enormous Katon and Doton variants like Endan and Yomi Numa GG, fast and deadly hair needles, hair defenses, camouflage capabilities and a variety of barriers and sealing techniques. His Kuchiyose use is incredibly flexible and does enhance some of his techniques, but Jiraiya is one of the most versatile fighters in the series for a reason. He doesn't have _that_ much to lose without it and could theoretically beat a nerfed version of our beloved Uzumaki.

And again, that's just the worst case scenario, not an attempt at accurately gauging Naruto's strength.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Don't understand how you can rate Base Naruto (EoS) > Base Jiraiya, when the former without his buffs from Kurama, SM and etc is probably as fast as Kakuzu (in the best case scenario) and still physically inferior.



Mainly because of FRS really. I think Jiraiya overall is better than SM Narudo.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Mainly because of FRS really. I think Jiraiya overall is better than SM Narudo.



He can't use FRS in base, he always needed sage mode or kyuubi chakra in order to perfectly use it.


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## Rocky (Aug 14, 2015)

_The Last_ Naruto could throw FRS in base without any strain.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He can't use FRS in base, he always needed sage mode or kyuubi chakra in order to perfectly use it.





That's why I placed him above Base Hashirama as well. 
The kid is simply too good.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> That's why I placed him above Base Hashirama as well.
> The kid is simply too good.



What is that? If it's the movies I haven't seen that so I can't gauge that yet. I'm basing this off the end of the manga and onward.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> What is that? If it's the movies I haven't seen that so I can't gauge that yet. I'm basing this off the end of the manga and onward.



From the movie "the Last"
did I mention the Kid can control that shit?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Yeah, if he can do that I can see why you would rate him above Jiraiya then, but I'd have to watch the whole movie to make my conclusion. Is it out or is it still in theaters?


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

It's out. The movie is from the last year.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Oh wow really, how come HS hasn't subbed it or have they and I just missed it.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

I don't know. I was not that interested in it honestly. Just saw it for the sake of seeing Narudo (the character himself). 
I am addicted to that little shit as you may know.


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## Kyu (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Link removed
> 
> It's obvious that it happened because of this attack. Actually, if we go with your assumption, it will be even worst because that would mean the hole needed much more power from them to be created.
> 
> ...



Call me back when Nagato & Gaara can keep Kurama and Perfect Susano'o at bay. 



> His fighting style includes Rasengan spam, enormous Katon and Doton variants like Endan and Yomi Numa GG, hair needles, hair defenses,



J-man summons more frequently. 



> and a variety of sealing techniques


.
He's demonstrated 4; three of which aren't suitable for one on one combat and chakra suppressing seals are only effective against unstable jinchuuriki



> His Kuchiyose use is incredibly flexible and does enhance some of his techniques,



Toads are what he consistently uses to overwhelm shinobi who're on a similar level and possess the means to pressure him. 

Without them, his arsenal takes a substantial hit.


> but Jiraiya is one of the most versatile fighters in the series for a reason. I really don't think he has too much to lose without it



quality > quantity 

Nothing Jiraiya has can protect him from FRS...let alone the larger variant. 

In reality, this is how he stacks up to his former pupil:

Strength: Naruto(uppercutted Sasuke into a mountain) > Jiraiya

Speed: Naruto(matched Sauce blow for blow/kept up with Deva) > Jiraiya 

Stamina: Naruto > Jiraiya by a wide margin; no explanation required

When your only clear advantage is versatility, you're most likely not going to last long against someone who's simply an outright superior physical specimen with casual homing nukes. 



> He doesn't have that much to lose without it and could theoretically beat a nerfed version of our beloved Uzumaki.



Is this "nerfed" Naruto in your head incapable of coherent thought?


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu please, AGAIN, I am replying to you at your point of changing the land-scape! 

I don't care about who will win against who.

by your logic


> Call me back when Nagato & Gaara can keep Kurama and Perfect Susano'o at bay.



"call me when half dead ass Hashirama can stop Kurama and be able to seal it without crying for his wife for help"
"there, Kushina is stronger than Hashirama "

Again, I don't care about who does what against who.* MY POINT IS ABOUT THE SCALE ITSELF*!


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

Kyu said:


> J-man summons more frequently.



No he doesn't. His _frequency_ of techniques when dealing with Konan and Pain consisted of more non-summoning jutsu than summoning ones before resorting to SM. Base Jiraiya has never _constantly_ relied on Kuchiyose to pressure opponents equal to him, and his arsenal doesn't take anywhere nearly as substantial a hit as you're implying.

Even then, the frequency of his summons is completely irrelevant here because your reply does nothing to dispute the part of the post you're quoting. He possesses those offensive techniques I listed, yelling "SUMMONS!" isn't going to change that fact.



> He's demonstrated 4; three of which aren't suitable for one on one combat and chakra suppressing seals are only effective against unstable jinchuuriki



A chakra suppressing seal is a chakra suppressing seal. It isn't some sentient thing that differentiates between unstable Jinchuuriki and regular chakra.



> Nothing Jiraiya has can protect him from FRS...let alone the larger variant.



I won't deny that, but then comes the question of whether a rusty Naruto with stifled movements and decreased battle senses can efficiently manifest and utilize FRS faster than the time it takes Jiraiya to launch one of his fastest ranged attacks. Either way is possible, and I'm not specifically arguing for or against the idea that Naruto loses to him so much as considering it a worst case scenario. 

If Jiraiya can pose a threat to Shin, as some appear to assert, I don't see how he doesn't _possibly_ pose a threat to weakened base Nardo.



> Strength: Naruto(uppercutted Sasuke into a mountain) > Jiraiya
> 
> Speed: Naruto(matched Sauce blow for blow/kept up with Deva) > Jiraiya



Too bad neither of these are anywhere remotely compelling enough to make me consider them beyond the 4.5 tier ballpark that Jiraiya comfortably sits within in both categories.  Crater-busting "feats" are more common than you might believe and have been replicated by characters who didn't even possess 5th tier strength, and an exhausted Sasuke isn't a 5th tier speedster either.



> Is this "nerfed" Naruto in your head incapable of coherent thought?



Like it or not, rusty Naruto is a thing. His reactions and movements appear to be inferior to that of a base Naruto in better shape, if Gaiden was anything to go by.

Although the fact that you're putting the word 'nerfed' in quotes makes me think you're not really arguing from the standpoint of a weakened Naruto, which really makes this entire debate pointless.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Anyone else get the feeling we should expand this list to include all the other kages?





Hussain said:


> Kyu please, AGAIN, I am replying to you at your point of changing the land-scape!
> 
> I don't care about who will win against who.
> 
> ...



Kyu savage as fuck, not giving a shit about the text Hussain is posting.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Anyone else get the feeling we should expand this list to include all the other kages?
> 
> Kyu savage as fuck, not giving a shit about the text Hussain is posting.



perhaps if I used some women "sexiness" pics after every sentence. 

Lol, JK, sorry Kyu. 

-----
As for your question. Probably not, must of the Kages barely have feats, and people count those with no feats as fodders. Heck, some times even with feats!


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> perhaps if I used some women "sexiness" pics after every sentence.
> 
> Lol, JK, sorry Kyu.
> 
> ...



You think Oonoki and Gaara are fodder? 

They have no modes, just base.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

I think fodders are underrated actually. 

they wiped Hashirama's ass, Tobirama's, 3rd Raikage's, the Uzumaki's clan, the Senju ...and many others. 
They made Konoha get weakened severely... etc

but no, I don't think Onoki/Gaara to be fodders.


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## RBL (Aug 14, 2015)

gai

jad says base gai can use hirudora, Base gai is a beast.


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## Kyu (Aug 15, 2015)

> No he doesn't. His _frequency_ of techniques when dealing with Konan and Pain consisted of more non-summoning jutsu than summoning ones before resorting to SM.



-debuted with a summoning
-summoned during Konoha's invasion
- summoned Gama to protect Nardo from Samehada and summoned the mountain toad soon after
-summoned Gamakichi, then Gamabunta later on

It's his go-to move. 




> and his arsenal doesn't take anywhere nearly as substantial a hit as you're implying.



Far more than Naruto.




> Even then, the frequency of his summons is completely irrelevant here because your reply does nothing to dispute the part of the post you're quoting. *He possesses those offensive techniques*



And who the fuck is disputing the bold?

I'm saying he relies on summoning more than his former pupil seeing as he calls them into  every serious fight he's been in. More often than any technique you listed. 



> A chakra suppressing seal is a chakra suppressing seal. It isn't some sentient thing that differentiates between unstable Jinchuuriki and regular chakra.



Regardless it wouldn't help Jiraiya considering he can't get close enough to Naruto without getting prison raped.



> I won't deny that, but then comes the question of whether a rusty Naruto with stifled movements and decreased battle senses can efficiently manifest and utilize FRS faster than the time it takes Jiraiya to launch one of his fastest ranged attacks. Either way is possible, and I'm not specifically arguing for or against the idea that Naruto loses to him so much as considering it a worst case scenario.



Stifled movements? Give me a break.

 Gaiden Naruto effortlessly deflected dozens of weapons with a wave of his arm. Gathering chakra into his palm and throwing FRS isn't a daunting task for him.

Now do I think base Naruto can handle Minato or Tobirama's speed? Of course not, but Jiraiya isn't approaching such a speed to threaten him even in Sage Mode, as his attacks were countered & blocked multiple times during his fight against Preta & Human Path. 



> If Jiraiya can pose a threat to Shin, as some appear to assert, I don't see how he doesn't _possibly_ pose a threat to weakened base Nardo.



Either Naruto or Sasuke could've crushed Shin at any time. 

Naruto getting stabbed had less to do with a dulled sense of battle & more to do with Shin taking advantage of an enemy's weapon inside the protection of the fox shroud though weapon manipulation hax. 

Shin's was fighting Sasuke, not Naruto; keep that in mind. 



> Too bad neither of these are anywhere remotely compelling enough to make me consider them beyond the 4.5 tier ballpark that Jiraiya comfortably sits within in both categories.



DB stats aren't reliable in determining how fast or powerful a character may be. For example, Kiba and Lee have a 4 and a 4.5(speed) in the second and third databooks respectively. 



> Crater-busting "feats" are more common than you might believe and have been replicated by characters who didn't even possess 5th tier strength, and



Exceeds what Jiraiya's ever done in base. 



> Like it or not, rusty Naruto is a thing. His reactions and movements appear to be inferior to that of a base Naruto in better shape, if Gaiden was anything to go by.



We haven't even seen him fight in motion in the gaiden aside from getting the Shins close enough to subdue via Killing Intent. 

You're literally adding an imaginary handicap. Gaiden Naruto isn't slower nor was he implied to be.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Aug 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> From the movie "the Last"
> did I mention the Kid can control that shit?



I think its bull that he can even throw it. The chakra is supposed to be too dense and heavy to throw. Makes no sense for that to be possible in base mode. Or is it because of his hashirama arm? If so i can understand why he can throw it, but if he has done it with his other arm then that's rubbish.

Still doesnt make sense that he can steer the thing.


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## Ersa (Aug 15, 2015)

*Base 'Gods'*
Naruto / Hashirama

*Base 'Top'*
Minato
Madara
Itachi

*Base 'Mid'*
Obito
Kakashi
Bee
A
Jiraiya
Gai
Tsunade
Sakura


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## Altair21 (Aug 15, 2015)

There's no way Naruto should be as low as some people are putting him on these lists. Sasuke effortlessly blew up a meteor as big as the Hokage mountain with a mere chidori. Naruto's rasengan and/or FRS (which he can use in base now) should be capable of matching it. 

There's no way he's below people like Minato, Jiraiya, Madara, etc. The only one who has a legitimate argument for being ahead of him in base is Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I think its bull that he can even throw it. The chakra is supposed to be too dense and heavy to throw. Makes no sense for that to be possible in base mode. Or is it because of his hashirama arm? If so i can understand why he can throw it, but if he has done it with his other arm then that's rubbish.
> 
> Still doesnt make sense that he can steer the thing.



to be honest I am skeptical about the feats in this movie since Kishi did not really work on it, but simply game them some ideas and considered it as part of the manga. There are some shit that make no sense at all in it. For example Naruto being able to bring Kurama out and they fight separately! 



> There's no way he's below people like Minato, Jiraiya, Madara, etc. The only one who has a legitimate argument for being ahead of him in base is Hashirama.



based on your previous lines. Minato would be much better than Hashirama against Minato, why?
Because if Naruto fired that off, Hashirama will get fucked in his @$$ and won't be able to do anything. Unlike Minato
who makes those attacks useless with his teleportations and barriers...


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## Larry (Aug 15, 2015)

Question, wtf does Base mean? I'm new here.. ( ͡? ʖ̯ ͡?)


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## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

Like they don't use any power up modes. For example, They can't use Sage Mode (SM), Kurama's modes (KCM/BM) and so on...


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## Larry (Aug 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't know. I was not that interested in it honestly. Just saw it for the sake of seeing Narudo (the character himself).
> I am addicted to that little shit as you may know.



I watched it a couple days ago, Naruto fucked shit up


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## Larry (Aug 15, 2015)

Then Naruto is at the top of the list for me


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## The Undying (Aug 15, 2015)

Kyu said:


> I'm saying he relies on summoning more than his former pupil seeing as he calls them into  every serious fight he's been in. More often than any technique you listed.



And I'm saying he doesn't _rely_ on any one skill subset. You said that his frequency of technique usage in battle was geared more towards summons, which simply isn't true. His fight against Pain alone is the metric we should be using here since Jiraiya was putting his full effort into the battle, and the frequency of his base techniques leaned far more towards non-summoning Ninjutsu than summon-related ones. Go and reread/rewatch the fight. He has a lot of skill and utility with Kuchiyose, but his arsenal certainly doesn't _revolve_ around Kuchiyose in a serious confrontation.



> Naruto getting stabbed had less to do with a dulled sense of battle



Let's not pretend that Naruto's rustiness wasn't intended as the primary explanation for his failure to avoid the sword. The dialogue itself posits this as an explanation, so there's no reason to be in denial about it. Moreover, there's absolutely no way in hell a _non_-rusty Naruto wouldn't have _easily_ been able to react and avoid the sword in an identical situation under identical circumstances. The implication is that his movements were indeed stifled. This is actually supported by the Gaiden on multiple occasions, as Naruto himself and even Sasuke directly insinuated that his performance was pitiful compared to what it should have been.



> DB stats aren't reliable in determining how fast or powerful a character may be. For example, Kiba and Lee have a 4 and a 4.5(speed) in the second and third databooks respectively.



Official numbers are always more reliable than subjective inference. If you fundamentally disagree with the stats, there's no use in debating further because we'll never get anywhere. We're also talking past each other since you're treating Naruto as if he isn't handicapped at all while I'm arguing from the perspective of Naruto being rusty. We both agree that at his fullest, he's comfortably above Jiraiya, so there's really no reason to continue this argument.


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## Kushina san (Aug 19, 2015)

1) base Hashirama 
2) base Naruto 
3) base Minato
4) 3T Madara 
5) 3T Itachi
6) 3T Kakashi 
6) 3T Obito 
7) base Jiraiya
8) base Gai
9) base Bee
10) base Sakura (EoS)
11)  base Tsunade
12)base Ei (Fourth Raikage)


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## Speedyamell (May 16, 2017)

Base naruto(obviously)
Base sakura(slightly weaker and without regen,but is pretty much at home at base)
Base minato
Base hashirama(mokuton)
Base tsunade
Base ei
Base guy(removing his weights is still base right?)
Base bee
3t itachi
3t madara
3t obito
3t kakashi.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Arles Celes (May 16, 2017)

Kyu said:


> It doesn't directly improve any attributes listed in my opening post, nor does it provide abilities that do.
> 
> Basic sharingan is permitted.



Was it ever stated that the Rinnegan does improve any attributes tho?

The sharingan grants precog passively at least while Rinnegan does not give any passive abilities as for as I know.


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## Android (May 16, 2017)

The amount of "  " in this thread made me so dizzy, ugh !!

OT :
Base Naruto.
Base Hashirama
Aaaaaah fuck it, i'll just quote this guy :


Ersa said:


> *Base 'Gods'*
> Naruto / Hashirama
> 
> *Base 'Top'*
> ...


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## JiraiyaFlash (May 16, 2017)

base Naruto (EoS/Boruto film)
base Hashirama (VotE)

gap


base Minato

3T Madara (VotE) (not gonna use MS techs)

base Jiraiya 
3T Obito (War Arc) (not gonna use MS tech

gap


base Bee

3T Itachi (not gonna use MS techs)

base Tsunade

base Gai

3T Kakashi (pre-DMS bullshit)

gap


base Sakura (EoS)
base Ei (Fourth Raikage)

Reactions: Winner 1


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