# Shisui vs. Itachi



## Jad (Mar 23, 2014)

Since Shisui was known for his Body Flicker technique, I am doing to go ahead and give him the following feats:


 *Taijutsu (inc. Kenjutsu, shuriken play):* Current Base Sharingan Sasuke
 *Ninjutsu:* All of Itachi's Katon techniques
 *Stamina:* Current Base Sharingan Sasuke
 *Genjutsu (not MS) offense:* Itachi level
 *Genjutsu defense:* Current Base Sharingan Sasuke
 *Flicker technique:* Naruto's version BEFORE surpassing Ei. *No Chakra drawbacks* and *5-second interval uses of it*. Also he can attack AFTER his flicker, not during the flicker. Like Hirashin.

---------------- *tl'tr*

*Think of it like:* it's current Base Sharingan Sasuke (inc. Katana) minus the ninjutsu with a flicker technique on the level of prepubescent Naruto's Shunshin (w/ restrictions) and Itachi's Katons.



*Location:* Uchiha Village
*Distance:* 15 meter's
*Knowledge:* Full
*State of mind:* IC to kill (Shisui stole Itachi's girl friend)
*Restrictions:* None

--------------------

*Bonus Round:*


*Spoiler*: __ 



They both have to fight 8th Gate Gai


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## Weapon (Mar 23, 2014)

We don't know a whole lot about Shisui, but from what we do know three things outside of combat:


He was a more prized target than Itachi for Danzo, this pretty much cements his worth and strength in comparison to Itachi.
Itachi said how he considered him his older brother, this says beyond a relationship stand point. Itachi has immense respect to them this is also cemented in by their interactions, it seemed Shisui was always the one in charge and one stop ahead of Itachi. He even put in place his ideas into Itachi.
Kabuto states the war would of been over if he had Shisui, and he couldn't stress enough over the course of 10 chapters how important and valuable Shisui would of been.

This being put in place, on top of his hacked features that we had already seen and heard of and being able to evidently on top of that cancel out Itachi's features I'd say Shisui has this. 

Shisui exceeds the Uchiha when it comes to Genjutsu [O/D], and if he has that stamina and CQC abilities as current Sasuke which trumps Itachi. Shisui has this again. 

There are more play-outs where Shisui _should_ win based on all that alone. We don't know enough to be able to decide an obvious winner.


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## Trojan (Mar 23, 2014)

I think it would be better if we wait at least for the next filler on the anime. I think they will show some of his abilities. Anyway, I think Shisui is the superior one.

 Bonus Round:

It's a tie, all of them die.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Since Shisui was known for his Body Flicker technique, I am doing to go ahead and give him the following feats:
> 
> 
> *Taijutsu (inc. Kenjutsu, shuriken play):* Current Base Sharingan Sasuke
> ...



Itachi one-shots with any of his MS Jutsu.



> *Think of it like:* it's current Base Sharingan Sasuke (inc. Katana) minus the ninjutsu with a flicker technique on the level of prepubescent Naruto's Shunshin (w/ restrictions) and Itachi's Katons.







> *Bonus Round:*
> 
> They both have to fight 8th Gate Gai



Gai finishes wiping the Uchiha blood off his sandals before they even wake up in hell and realize they're dead.


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## Jabba (Mar 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> *State of mind:* IC to kill (Shisui stole Itachi's girl friend)



Itachi wouldn't give a darn since he ended up killing her anyway.


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## Jad (Mar 23, 2014)

Jabba said:


> Itachi wouldn't give a darn since he ended up killing her anyway.



Kurenai isn't dead. 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Caesar (Mar 23, 2014)

Shisui programs his Mangekyoo so whenever someone looks him in the eye will instantly kill himself.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 23, 2014)

Shisui has no feats. What's the point in this thread if it's just a composite character as opposed to actually being Shisui?


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## Jad (Mar 23, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Shisui has no feats. What's the point in this thread if it's just a composite character as opposed to actually being Shisui?



Yeah I don't know anymore, seems like a shit thread to me as well. Serves me right for making a thread that doesn't have Gai in the title.


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Wasn't Shisui called the strongest in the Uchiha-Clan when he was alive, or did I make that up.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Wasn't Shisui called the strongest in the Uchiha-Clan when he was alive, or did I make that up.



He was the best Genjutsu user while he was alive.

But nobody said he was the strongest Uchiha generally.


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> He was the best Genjutsu user while he was alive.
> 
> But nobody said he was the strongest Uchiha generally.


Pretty sure in the Viz during the Sasuke flashback he was called the strongest Uchiha during that time-period, but i'd have to go back and check.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 23, 2014)

Yeah, I don't have the Viz translation handy.

It's not like they're infallible, either.


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## Garcher (Mar 23, 2014)

well obviously Shisui wasn't that strong if Danzo was able to steal his eye 

Itachi wins.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 23, 2014)

Danzou's the type of guy to bring his whole posse to an ambush when he controls the terms of it.

More importantly, we didn't actually see how Shisui's eye was taken.


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## Dominus (Mar 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Pretty sure in the Viz during the Sasuke flashback he was called the strongest Uchiha during that time-period, but i'd have to go back and check.



[sp=If you're talking about the time those members of the Uchiha clan questioned Itachi about Shisui's death, they said that Shisui was one of the most talented members][/sp]


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, I don't have the Viz translation handy.
> 
> It's not like they're infallible, either.



Okay so NJT's translation was "One of the most talented Uchiha's". So I guess he was just one of the best Uchiha ever, nothing stating he was the strongest at the time he died. Must have been confused or seen another translation, but NJT is considered pretty much the best you can get [besides Shounsensuki of course] so I go with him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 23, 2014)

Itachi taijutsu blitzes him like those Uchiha cops.


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## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

Slap yourself, OP.


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## Turrin (Mar 23, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Slap yourself, OP.


Why so mean to Jad, he was just trying to create a fun thread about a character that is otherwise very difficult to evaluate.


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## Jabba (Mar 23, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> Slap yourself, OP.



Yeah, you tell him. 

Stick to your Gai threads, Jad.


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## Fiiction (Mar 24, 2014)

Shisui makes itachi kill himself.

Itachi tries to avoid looking into his opponent's eye for once.


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## Trojan (Mar 24, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Shisui makes itachi kill himself.
> 
> Itachi tries to avoid looking into his opponent's eye for once.



Danzo controlled the Samurai (not sure how to spell his name ~.~) without him looking
to Danzo's eye. Thus, one of Shisui eyes at least does not require eye contact. 

So, even if itachi did not see Shisui's eye, its useless.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 24, 2014)

Shisui got his eye ripped off by Danzo - who at that time likely had no enhancements whatsoever, an old cripple. We have absolutely no idea about what exactly had happened there but it is still a pretty underwhelming performance. This AU Shisui looks a lot better but with both parties having full knowledge it boils down to which is going to activate first - Amaterasu or Kotoamatsukami. That level of shunshin is not enough to escape Ama, not without sensing at least. With still present general ambiguity of Koto, Shisui's likely reluctance to use it(10 years cooldown?), Amaterasu having consistent feats and Itachi's crazy fast bunshin feints(more reason for Shisui to postpone Koto, can't risk hitting a bunshin) going with Itachi here.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Shisui got his eye ripped off by Danzo - who at that time likely had no enhancements whatsoever, an old cripple. We have absolutely no idea about what exactly had happened there but it is still a pretty underwhelming performance.


If we have no idea what happened how is underwhelming; shouldn't it be we don't know how whelming it actually was? There are really a-lot of ways to explain how Danzo managed to rip Shisui's eye out, and none of which necessary result in the conclusion that Shisui is weaker than Danzo [who we don't even know the strength of back then to begin with]. 

Honestly I feel as if people are sleeping on Shishui a bit too much in this thread. He was called one of the most talented Uchiha ever, which is pretty big hype, considering the Uchiha Clan's portrayal in the manga. He was also hyped as the best Genjutsu user in the clan, and anyone better than Itachi at Genjutsu is likely very powerful [Itachi also seemed to hold him in quite high-regard as well]. Than we must consider that most characters who have the trying to bring peace to the world mind-set, Kishi usually makes immensely strong. 

Finally and while I will admit this is theoretical, I would not be surprised to learn that Shisui could utilizes Hiraishin. Your probably like what the fuck are you talking about Turrin, but bare with me for a moment. Shisui's monicker is Shisui of the Shunshin; most people believe this refers to well him having an awesome Shunshin; however it's no secret to people who follow the translations closely that Kishi often has characters call Hiraishin - Shunshin, as well; so the monicker could very well refer to Hiraishin. Let's also consider that Kagami (Shisui's father), was one of Tobirama's students, so there is connection between Shisui and the inventor of Hiraishin, that makes it very possible that he knows Hiraishin. 

So yeah, Shisui could easy be a fusion between Minato and Itachi, which is one of the most OP things I can possibly imagine.

Edit: Also considering Uchiha Kagami's name it wouldn't surprise me if there was some connection to Yata-Mirror as well [though that is much more of a reach than Hiraishin].


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## Fiiction (Mar 24, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Danzo controlled the Samurai (not sure how to spell his name ~.~) without him looking
> to Danzo's eye. Thus, one of Shisui eyes at least does not require eye contact.
> 
> So, even if itachi did not see Shisui's eye, its useless.



Oooh yeah, with that one dude that fought hanzo.  That being said, itachi is fucked.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> If we have no idea what happened how is underwhelming; shouldn't it be we don't know how whelming it actually was? There are really a-lot of ways to explain how Danzo managed to rip Shisui's eye out, and none of which necessary result in the conclusion that Shisui is weaker than Danzo [who we don't even know the strength of back then to begin with].
> 
> Honestly I feel as if people are sleeping on Shishui a bit too much in this thread. He was called one of the most talented Uchiha ever, which is pretty big hype, considering the Uchiha Clan's portrayal in the manga. He was also hyped as the best Genjutsu user in the clan, and anyone better than Itachi at Genjutsu is likely very powerful [Itachi also seemed to hold him in quite high-regard as well]. Than we must consider that most characters who have the trying to bring peace to the world mind-set, Kishi usually makes immensely strong.
> 
> ...


The gist of what happened - Shisui tried to use his best ability on Danzo and failed miserably. That Danzo lacked Izanagi and Sharingans(due to Uchiha Clan being alive). At best he had Hashirama's arm(and even that is heavily debatable, that arm looked like something transplanted mainly for usage of Uchiha's abilities). Even if I consider Kishimoto's PnJ affecting the fight heavily it still doesn't look good for Shisui. 

Basically what is known about Shisui's fights:

failed against pre-Izanagi Danzo and lost his eye
fought against Ao and wasn't able to kill him; Ao's feats and general portrayal aren't very good also - they are solid for Elite Jonin with unique skills but someone like Itachi eats Elite Jonins for breakfast

If he had Hiraishin or Yata Mirror in those fights? Embarrassing. 

On the other had yeah he had world-wide reputation and "most talented" out of Uchiha Clan at that time(I don't think he was the most talented ever, that's obviously goes to Madara and Izuna). But you have to consider people he was needed to contend with. Generic Uchiha Clan members. Itachi was still very young and developing. Rest are what? Fugaku+Mikoto and those policemen Itachi soloed effortlessly? Generic Uchihas are basically Elite Mooks with one semi-broken cheap ability that is hard to deal with. Being better/more talented than them isn't as impressive as teen Itachi's victory over Orochimaru. Not even close.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

alex payne said:


> The gist of what happened - Shisui tried to use his best ability on Danzo and failed miserably.


It doesn't say Shisui tried to use Koto on Danzo. It says he was about to use Koto to stop the Coup de tat, but Danzo stole his eye before he had the chance.

Shi: _"Just when I was about to stop the coup d’etat by using kotoamatsukami... danzou stole my right eye.\\"_

That really tells us little to nothing about what really went down.



> That Danzo lacked Izanagi and Sharingans(due to Uchiha Clan being alive). At best he had Hashirama's arm(and even that is heavily debatable, that arm looked like something transplanted mainly for usage of Uchiha's abilities). Even if I consider Kishimoto's PnJ affecting the fight heavily it still doesn't look good for Shisui.


It's implied that Orochimaru implanted cells into Danzo when he was working for Anbu-Root, which was before he left the village. It's also implied that Danzo had Sharingans implanted before Orochimaru left the village. Afterall he's already all bandaged up in the Kabuto flashback:
aegon-rokudo

Also there is absolutely no reason Danzo couldn't have harvested a few Sharingan from fallen Uchiha or even those he had Root assassinate before the Uchiha Clan massacre. 

On-top of that we do not know if Danzo actually defeated Shisui 1v1 or any of the circumstances at all.



> ought against Ao and wasn't able to kill him; Ao's feats and general portrayal aren't very good also - they are solid for Elite Jonin with unique skills but someone like Itachi eats Elite Jonins for breakfast
> If he had Hiraishin or Yata Mirror in those fights? Embarrassing.


I guess Hashirama is Kakuzu level herp da derp. 

I mean every single fodder that is taking part in this battle against Juubi, Madara, and Obito and survives, are going to be able to say they fought the 10-Tails and it's Jins, does that mean Juubi is Fodder level? Are Madara, Juubi, Obito etc.. embarrassments?



> On the other had yeah he had world-wide reputation and "most talented" out of Uchiha Clan at that time(I don't think he was the most talented ever, that's obviously goes to Madara and Izuna). But you have to consider people he was needed to contend with. Generic Uchiha Clan members. Itachi was still very young and developing. Rest are what? Fugaku+Mikoto and those policemen Itachi soloed effortlessly? Generic Uchihas are basically Elite Mooks with one semi-broken cheap ability that is hard to deal with. Being better/more talented than them isn't as impressive as teen Itachi's victory over Orochimaru. Not even close.


You realize there were multiple Izanagi and Izanami users in the clan and I really doubt Kishimoto wants us to see it the way your describing it


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## Nikushimi (Mar 24, 2014)

We have no idea how strong Shisui was, but I seriously don't get the impression he was on or above Itachi's level. I don't care HOW good his Shunshin was; even A isn't beating Itachi.

Kotoamatsukami only once every 10 years? With each eye? The dude didn't look any older than his 20s or 30s. If that was his only MS Jutsu, then he was basically another MS-less Uchiha except for 3-4 instances in his entire life where he was able to Incept somebody.

Other than that, you're looking at basic Katons and throwing weapon techniques, maybe even Izanami (it's possible he trained Itachi, since they were such close friends and Itachi looked up to him like a brother). That's nowhere near enough to compete with Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o; maybe if Shisui's MS doesn't stay deactivated for the entire decade between uses of Kotoamatsukami, that combined with his natural Genjutsu skill would be enough to deal with Tsukuyomi--giving him the benefit of the doubt, of course. Even then, that's just one of Itachi's MS Jutsu; there's absolutely nothing Shisui can do against the other two, as far as we know.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Other than that, you're looking at basic Katons and throwing weapon techniques, maybe even Izanami (it's possible he trained Itachi, since they were such close friends and Itachi looked up to him like a brother). That's nowhere near enough to compete with Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o; maybe if Shisui's MS doesn't stay deactivated for the entire decade between uses of Kotoamatsukami, that combined with his natural Genjutsu skill would be enough to deal with Tsukuyomi--giving him the benefit of the doubt, of course. Even then, that's just one of Itachi's MS Jutsu; there's absolutely nothing Shisui can do against the other two, as far as we know.



1. Tsukuyomi is a non factor. Any Uchiha can break it. Canon
2. Shisui had susano'o as well since he awoke MS in both eyes, so susano'o vs. susano'o won't help Itachi much
3. Amaterasu won't get past susano'o 

So, in the end it becomes a fight of susano'o and stamina. Shisui has the superior genjutsu and possibly stamina while Itachi MAY have the superior susano'o. 

Anyways, I don't have enough information to come down one way or the other on the outcome but just wanted to point out that tsukuyomi and amaterasu are completely non factors in this fight


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## Alex Payne (Mar 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It doesn't say Shisui tried to use Koto on Danzo. It says he was about to use Koto to stop the Coup de tat, but Danzo stole his eye before he had the chance.
> 
> Shi: _"Just when I was about to stop the coup d’etat by using kotoamatsukami... danzou stole my right eye.\\"_
> 
> That really tells us little to nothing about what really went down.


 It tells us that Danzo was able to outperform Shisui. And that's enough. Same Danzo(likely superior version) who was outperformed by MS-Rookie Sasuke later on. 




Turrin said:


> It's implied that Orochimaru implanted cells into Danzo when he was working for Anbu-Root, which was before he left the village. It's also implied that Danzo had Sharingans implanted before Orochimaru left the village. Afterall he's already all bandaged up in the Kabuto flashback:
> aegon-rokudo
> 
> Also there is absolutely no reason Danzo couldn't have harvested a few Sharingan from fallen Uchiha or even those he had Root assassinate before the Uchiha Clan massacre.
> ...


 Or maybe Danzo was bandaged because his real arm and eye were damaged in battles. He can't simply cut off his arm and his eye without people noticing that something is off. His eye was already bandaged in Nagato's flashback. Harvesting that many Sharingans from fallen Uchihas? Assassinating Uchihas? Even Danzo wouldn't be able to pull that off without being caught. It is a guarded bloodline. It would also be counter-productive, Uchiha Clan prior Obito's attack was a powerful asset. 




Turrin said:


> I guess Hashirama is Kakuzu level herp da derp.
> 
> I mean every single fodder that is taking part in this battle against Juubi, Madara, and Obito and survives, are going to be able to say they fought the 10-Tails and it's Jins, does that mean Juubi is Fodder level? Are Madara, Juubi, Obito etc.. embarrassments?


 Way to miss my point. 




Turrin said:


> You realize there were multiple Izanagi and Izanami users in the clan and I really doubt Kishimoto wants us to see it the way your describing it


 Kishimoto showed us Uchiha Clan's finest(at the time of Shisui) being humiliated by Itachi. I say finest because Kishi specifically mentioned it:



> うちはイナビ　-　Uchiha Inabi
> Male, 25 y/o, Military Police Force
> 木ノ葉隠れの里が誇る警務部隊の一人。“写輪眼”を持つ“うちは”の精鋭でもある。暗部入り以来、不審さが 目立ったイタチを、最も敵対視していた。
> A member of Konohagakure’s great Military Police Force, *he was also one of the ‘Uchiha’ elite* and had the ‘sharingan’. Inabi viewed Itachi as an enemy since he entered the Special Assassination Squad and began acting suspiciously.
> ...





Senjuclan said:


> 1. Tsukuyomi is a non factor. Any Uchiha can break it. Canon
> 2. Shisui had susano'o as well since he awoke MS in both eyes, so susano'o vs. susano'o won't help Itachi much


The hate is strong in this one.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 24, 2014)

I think it is fair to assume that Shisui was stronger than MSless 11 year old Itachi, given Itachi saw him like a big brother and he was considered the stronger genjutsu user of his time. 

Although it is impossible to tell how he'd compare to current Itachi. If Koto is all he got, no matter how haxed it is, with knowledge Itachi can deal with it through bunshin feints or by avoiding eye contact. 

Real question is, does Shisui have any way of dealing with Amaterasu or Susano'o ?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 24, 2014)

alex payne said:


> The hate is strong in this one.



Are you just trolling? I ask because if I was trying to troll as you say, explain to me why I did not just come out and say that Shisui would win? Furthermore, I challenge you to prove any of my points wrong.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

alex payne said:


> It tells us that Danzo was able to outperform Shisui. And that's enough.


Alex it doesn't tell us that because we know nothing of the circumstances of the match.



> Same Danzo(likely superior version)


We have absolutely nothing to judge Danzo's strength on back then other than him obviously still being a strong Shinobi. 



> who was outperformed by MS-Rookie Sasuke later on.


Actually it essentially ended in a draw, Sasuke just had Karin to heal him. Really no shame in that. 



> Or maybe Danzo was bandaged because his real arm and eye were damaged in battles.


Maybe, but I tend to go with the simplest explanation, that he already had done some modifications to himself.



> He can't simply cut off his arm and his eye without people noticing that something is off.


Apparently he can as no one noticed until the Gokage summit.



> His eye was already bandaged in Nagato's flashback.


Which probably means he already began the transplant process back then.



> Harvesting that many Sharingans from fallen Uchihas? Assassinating Uchihas? Even Danzo wouldn't be able to pull that off without being caught. It is a guarded bloodline. It would also be counter-productive, Uchiha Clan prior Obito's attack was a powerful asset.


This is silly dude. When Obito "died" there wasn't any large search to recover his other Sharingan. In-fact we have no reason to believe that people went out of their way to recover Sharingan from Uchiha-bodies that were lost on the battlefield. Danzo had like 60 some years before the time he would steal Shisui's eye to steal 10~11 Sharingan; that is more than believable.



> Way to miss my point.


What was your point than? Because to me there is nothing saying AO vs Shisui wasn't the same type of situation as  Pre-Jingo Kakuzu vs Hashirama. Or the multiple instance in the war where we have weaker Shinobi contributing in a battle between stronger ones. 



> Kishimoto showed us Uchiha Clan's finest(at the time of Shisui) being humiliated by Itachi. I say finest because Kishi specifically mentioned it:


They weren't the Uchiha-Clan's finest, they were elites, due to being part of the police force, in the same way that Chuunin-Jonin are considered elite Konoha Shinobi, but they aren't even remotely close to the finest Konoha shinobi. 

Uchiha Clan's finest are Madara, Izuna, and Itachi. Than we have guys like the ones mentioned by Itachi who could utilize Izanagi &/or Izanami. Possibly the Clan-Heads, etc....

Let's remember that even Itachi needed Obito's help to massacre the clan, that's with the fact that Fugaku/Mikoto didn't even fight back, so obviously they all can't be fodder, or Itachi would have just solo'd, heck they wouldn't have even been an issue for the leaf-village at all.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 24, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Tsukuyomi is a non factor. Any Uchiha can break it. Canon



I'd like to know what "canon" you're reading, because Sasuke was unable to break it until part 2, when he had absorbed some of Orochimaru's power, nearly reached Itachi's level of Genjutsu skill, and mastered the Senjutsu-inducing Juin.



> 2. Shisui had susano'o as well since he awoke MS in both eyes, so susano'o vs. susano'o won't help Itachi much



It's not clear what causes Susano'o to awaken, but it does not manifest in every MS user. Itachi was surprised to see that even Sasuke had gotten it.

The third databook (according to ShounenSuki's translation) says:



> The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use~~ "Amaterasu?," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi?," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"~~ Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo".



Yet there is some confusion, because Sasuke does not appear to have Tsukuyomi while Madara has not shown either of his MS techniques preceding Susano'o. Whatever the case, Shisui doesn't meet any of the known qualifications to awaken it.



> 3. Amaterasu won't get past susano'o



We have no reason to believe that Shisui had Susano'o.



> So, in the end it becomes a fight of susano'o and stamina. Shisui has the superior genjutsu and possibly stamina while Itachi MAY have the superior susano'o.



Shisui can't use a Jutsu he doesn't have. 



> Anyways, I don't have enough information to come down one way or the other on the outcome but just wanted to point out that tsukuyomi and amaterasu are completely non factors in this fight



They are still very much factors until Kishimoto shows that Shisui has a way to counter them.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'd like to know what "canon" you're reading, because Sasuke was unable to break it until part 2, when he had absorbed some of Orochimaru's power, nearly reached Itachi's level of Genjutsu skill, and mastered the Senjutsu-inducing Juin.



Actually the manga is quite clear. Sasuke was weak. He had a two tomoe sharingan not a mature sharingan. Once his sharingan fully developed, he broke tsukuyomi. Orochimaru's powers had nothing to do with that. 

Let's read the databook

Concurrently, *the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness*. 

There you go. Now remind me what the manga says about Shisui's skillfulness with the sharingan




Nikushimi said:


> It's not clear what causes Susano'o to awaken, but it does not manifest in every MS user. Itachi was surprised to see that even Sasuke had gotten it.
> 
> The third databook (according to ShounenSuki's translation) says:
> 
> ...



I am not sure what you are talking about. Sasuke said one needs to awaken the MS in both eyes. That is the same thing the databook says. It does not matter that it refers to Itachi's two eyes MS techniques. This is further confirmed by the fact that Tobi does not have susano'o. Madara has not shown his two doujutsu powers but the very fact that he has susano'o is a testament to him having awakened the MS in both eyes. 

You are making simple stuff more complicated than they are



Nikushimi said:


> We have no reason to believe that Shisui had Susano'o. Shisui can't use a Jutsu he doesn't have.



He meets the criterion for awakening susano'o therefore .... 



Nikushimi said:


> They are still very much factors until Kishimoto shows that Shisui has a way to counter them.



He already has. Tsukuyomi cannot affect a skilled sharingan wielder with Uchiha blood and susano'o requires one to awaken the MS in both eyes. As such, tsukuyomi won't affect Shisui and he had susano'o, which nullifies amaterasu's effectiveness


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

I think it's a pretty safe assumption that Susnao'o manifests in those MS users who have awakened the powers contained in both their left and right eye. For Itachi this was Tskuyomi and Amaterasu. For Sasuke this was Amaterasu and Enton. This is supported by the fact that it's stated in Itachi's case that when he awakened Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, he than awakened Susano'o, and in Sasuke's case we also saw him pull out Susano'o after awakening Amaterasu and Enton. 

For Shisui both eyes contain Koto, which he awakened in both eyes, so it he probably also awakened Susano'o. So I find Shisui having Susano'o extremely likely, but what Stage of Susano'o he achieved mastery to and whether he could use Susano'o w/o MS as Itachi & Madara apparently can; is another issue entirely. 

Granted this is still an assumptions, it's very good assumptions, and all i'm saying is it shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone if Shisui could indeed use Susnano'o and even it's higher stages.

With that said even if Shisui could use Susano'o up to Stage 4, it doesn't necessarily make Shisui's Susano'o equivalent to Itachi's. It seems like a good assumption that Susano'o's weapons depends on the techniques that one awakens in their eyes. Itachi got Genjutsu-Sword since his one MS contain Tsukuyomi and got Yata Mirror since his other eye contained Amaterasu. Sasuke got Enton Weapon because his one eye contained Enton, while not confirmed it does seem like his bow looks to have Yata-Mirror as part of it, which would make sense because his other eye contains Amaterasu.

Shisui having Kotoamatsukami in both eyes, i'm not sure how that would manifest in terms of his Susano'o weapons. Would that give him Totsuka-Blade like Itachi's and if so would he just get 1 Totsuka-Blade or would his Susano'o duel wield those things due to both eyes being Genjutsu oriented. Or would he get Totsuka-Blade for one and than get some type of Totsuka Shield for the other. Or would the difference between Koto and Tsukuyomi result in a completely new weapon, than Totsuka blade; like a mind-rape weapon or mind rape shield. Who the fuck knows, and who the hell knows if it would be as good as Totsuka + Yata Mirror.

Or are Yata and Totsuka Spirit weapons, that can really be passed from user to user, and if so Shisui could have easily been the one to pass them to Itachi; or not. Again who knows.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 24, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> Actually the manga is quite clear. Sasuke was weak. He had a two tomoe sharingan not a mature sharingan. Once his sharingan fully developed, he broke tsukuyomi.



You said "any Uchiha."

Sasuke is clear proof that that's wrong.



> Orochimaru's powers had nothing to do with that.



Didn't say it did, but it's worth mentioning that Sasuke did have Orochimaru's power at that time. And the Juin, which did appear to play a roll in breaking Tsukuyomi.



> Let's read the databook
> 
> Concurrently, *the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness*.
> 
> There you go. Now remind me what the manga says about Shisui's skillfulness with the sharingan



If anything, that only further proves that what you said is incorrect; not just "any Uchiha" can break Tsukuyomi.

In Shisui's case, I'll admit it's possible. However, we have no idea what Shisui's Genjutsu skill was like outside of Kotoamatsukami, or how powerful his eyes were.



> I am not sure what you are talking about. Sasuke said one needs to awaken the MS in both eyes. That is the same thing the databook says. It does not matter that it refers to Itachi's two eyes MS techniques. This is further confirmed by the fact that Tobi does not have susano'o. Madara has not shown his two doujutsu powers but the very fact that he has susano'o is a testament to him having awakened the MS in both eyes.
> 
> You are making simple stuff more complicated than they are



Itachi clone

^Itachi was surprised that Sasuke had it.

I can't find it, but there's another quote where an MS user with Susano'o is stated to be a "rarity"; can't remember who actually said it or where it was, so I'm still looking... I think it was Obito or Madara, at some point during the Juubi fight.



> He meets the criterion for awakening susano'o therefore ....



Does he? You need to master the "light of the material world" and the "darkness of the spiritual world," embodied in Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Whether or not Shisui achieved this or even if this is achievable with Kotoamatsukami remains to be seen; even if it can be done, how many times did Shisui actually use those Jutsu in his entire life?



> He already has. Tsukuyomi cannot affect a skilled sharingan wielder with Uchiha blood and susano'o requires one to awaken the MS in both eyes. As such, tsukuyomi won't affect Shisui and he had susano'o, which nullifies amaterasu's effectiveness



All you're doing is giving Shisui the benefit of the doubt with regard to Tsukuyomi, and imposing your own liberal interpretation of what is necessary to achieve Susano'o.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 24, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> You said "any Uchiha."
> 
> Sasuke is clear proof that that's wrong.
> 
> ...



In other words you have no real argument so you are going to nitpick. We were talking about Shisui



Nikushimi said:


> However, we have no idea what Shisui's Genjutsu skill was like outside of Kotoamatsukami, or how powerful his eyes were.



Actually we do. We know it was superior to Itachi's and all Uchiha of his generation



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi clone
> 
> ^Itachi was surprised that Sasuke had it.



So? What does this say? NOTHING



Nikushimi said:


> I can't find it, but there's another quote where an MS user with Susano'o is stated to be a "rarity"; can't remember who actually said it or where it was, so I'm still looking... I think it was Obito or Madara, at some point during the Juubi fight.



It was Obito. He said eyes that awaken susano'o are rare. Yet this does not contract anything we were told before. Eyes that awaken the sharingan are a rarity. Eyes that awaken the MS are even rarer. So, eyes that awaken susano'o are quite rare since awakening the MS is super rare. However, to awaken susano'o, all one needs is two MS powers



Nikushimi said:


> Does he? You need to master the "light of the material world" and the "darkness of the spiritual world," embodied in Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Whether or not Shisui achieved this or even if this is achievable with Kotoamatsukami remains to be seen; even if it can be done, how many times did Shisui actually use those Jutsu in his entire life?



This argument is based on the databook description of ITACHI's experience. By your logic, Sasuke does not have susano'o either because it says in the databook that susano'o has the totsuka no tsurugi

Now, as for your question, I already have answered it. I DON"T KNOW nor do you. Hence why I said I can't come down one way or the other on Shisui vs. Itachi. 



Nikushimi said:


> All you're doing is giving Shisui the benefit of the doubt with regard to Tsukuyomi, and imposing your own liberal interpretation of what is necessary to achieve Susano'o.



I used the manga. Manga says awaken MS in both eyes and get susano'o, I repeat the same thing. 

You don't like it because it threatens your favorite argument "there is no proof x character can deal with y jutsu Itachi has, therefore It is safe to conclude Itachi is stronger". That is quite the silly argument to tell you the truth


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## Blu-ray (Mar 24, 2014)

Shisui Koto's Itachi into killing himself 

Bonus scenario. Itachi protects both himself and Shisui with Yata and Koto oneshots. 



Senjuclan said:


> In other words you have no real argument so you are going to nitpick. We were talking about Shisui
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Italics, Sasuke said only those with the double mangekyo can awaken Susano'o. He never said all those with the double mangekyo get Susano'o. This would also make Susano'o the most common technique since the mangekyo always awakens in both eyes, never in one.

Bold is simply faulty logic. Susano'o can't be used without awakening the MS, so there would be no point in Obito considering this when speaking of Susano'o. The fact that Itachi was surprised Sasuke had is proof of this.

Nothing implies Shinsui has Susano'o, so there is no point building an argument off of speculation and conjecture.


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## Trojan (Mar 24, 2014)

Susanoo needs both Tskuyomi and Amaterasu to be activated according to the DB3.


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## Turrin (Mar 24, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Italics, Sasuke said only those with the double mangekyo can awaken Susano'o. He never said all those with the double mangekyo get Susano'o. This would also make Susano'o the most common technique since the mangekyo always awakens in both eyes, never in one.
> 
> Bold is simply faulty logic. Susano'o can't be used without awakening the MS, so there would be no point in Obito considering this when speaking of Susano'o. The fact that Itachi was surprised Sasuke had is proof of this.
> 
> Nothing implies Shinsui has Susano'o, so there is no point building an argument off of speculation and conjecture.


Actually the implication is that whoever awakens their MS-Techs, than awakens Susano'o. So it's not just getting MS, but also being able to awaken  their techs. There are probably Uchiha who have awakened MS, but have not awakened their techniques. Sasuke and Itachi make it look easy, but they are also suppose to be great geniuses, so there is that to consider as well. Shisui who awakened his MS tech, probably did have Susano'o.


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## Lurko (Mar 24, 2014)

Wouldn't Koto end this?


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## Senjuclan (Mar 25, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Italics, Sasuke said only those with the double mangekyo can awaken Susano'o. He never said all those with the double mangekyo get Susano'o. This would also make Susano'o the most common technique since the mangekyo always awakens in both eyes, never in one.



Actually he said susano'o was the third power that awoke in the eyes of those with two MS powers. Susano'o is the consequence of having the MS in two eyes



VolatileSoul said:


> Bold is simply faulty logic. Susano'o can't be used without awakening the MS, so there would be no point in Obito considering this when speaking of Susano'o. The fact that Itachi was surprised Sasuke had is proof of this.



1. Tobi's comments were on eye powers. He said he is a collector of good eyes and commented on Sasuke's eyes. Then he said eyes that awaken susano'o are rare. Now, tell me where in all those comments he mentioned MANGEKYO SHARINGAN? He did not. He mentioned eye powers only. He said Sasuke's eyes were good because they were of such caliber that they awoke susano'o. This is the same guy who has collected a hundred other pairs of eyes without MS. Out of all those eyes how do you think awoke susano'o? NONE!!! Of course his comment makes sense, eyes that awake susano'o are quite rare. 
2. The fact that Itachi was surprise means Itachi did not know how much Sasuke progressed since his death. 



VolatileSoul said:


> Nothing implies Shinsui has Susano'o, so there is no point building an argument off of speculation and conjecture.



Let me help you with this little thing called logic. 

Assertion 1: The criterion for having susano'o is having the MS in both eyes
Assertion 2: Shisui had the MS awoken in both his eyes
Conclusion: Shisui had susano'o

If Shisui did not have susano'o, then you are saying that the mangaka does not know what he is talking about


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