# Venezuelan Opposition Leader Guaidó Declares Himself President, With U.S. Backing



## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

> Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaidó declared himself the country's interim president amid nationwide protests Wednesday, in a bid to seize power from sitting leader Nicolás Maduro.
> 
> Guaidó, the 35-year-old recently elected head of Venezuela's National Assembly,of office on an outdoor podium in Caracas, flanked by yellow, blue and red Venezuelan flags. He raised his right hand as a crowd erupted in cheers. He promised to serve as interim leader and call for general elections.
> 
> ...



This fucking terrible Spanish


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## Island (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm sure you thought I was crazy @Mider T and @martryn for putting Maduro on my Celebrity Death List, but here we are.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Is it finally happening!? Is the US going to invade Venezuela to protect american people?


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## makeoutparadise (Jan 23, 2019)

US I am disappoint I thought we were past these coups


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## the_notorious_Z.É. (Jan 23, 2019)

Row row fight the powa!

Seriously Failduro needs to go, the guy can't even be competent at being a dictator.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Seiko said:


> Brazil and Colombia can help too. maybe send their military ?



No.

Brazil has no business messing with another state's sovereignty. I hope we can accept immigrants with open arms, but War is a no deal.


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> No.
> 
> Brazil has no business messing with another state's sovereignty. I hope we can accept immigrants with open arms, but War is a no deal.



Curious, what would Maduro have to do for your opinion to change ?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Curious, what would Maduro have to do for your opinion to change ?



Take military action against Brazil or outright declare war. 

Then, and only then, Bolsonaro would have my approval to take action. 

Brazil can't be the agressor state. We have to have the _casus belli_ " Venezuela declared war ".

Reactions: Like 2


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Brazil can't be the agressor state. We have to have the _casus belli_ " Venezuela declared war ".


What if US pays you to join other countries in a war against Venezuela?


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 23, 2019)

makeoutparadise said:


> US I am disappoint I thought we were past these coups



Then you have not been paying attention to the military industrial complex


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 23, 2019)

I wonder how many Neocons want a US invasion


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## BlueDemon (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm amazed it took so long. Wonder how the military is going to react, it's really dependent on them how this is going to develop from here on.

Not sure about other countries intervening though. If the military is on the side of opposition it won't be a problem, if they turn against the people, things might turn even uglier than if the former option takes place.


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## Island (Jan 23, 2019)

New rule: no invasions while the government is shut down.

Let's see how fast Congress reopens that shit.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> Then you have not been paying attention to the military industrial complex


Double post


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> What if US pays you to join other countries in a war against Venezuela?



Noppity nope.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Island said:


> I'm sure you thought I was crazy @Mider T and @martryn for putting Maduro on my Celebrity Death List, but here we are.


I didn't remember you playing this year


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## Island (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> I didn't remember you playing this year





Island said:


> 1. Paul Gascoigne, Famous & Alcoholic (1967)
> 2. Valerie Harper, Mary Tyler Moore's Best Friend (1939)
> 3. Jimmy Carter, Oldest-Living Former US President (1924)
> 4. Olivia Newton-John, Famous & Has Cancer (1948)
> ...


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## Drake (Jan 23, 2019)

Well... He certainly can't be worse than Maduro.

I am generally not supportive of the US going into countries with our military unless there is an actual threat to the United States. Hopefully Venezuela can solve this themselves and get rid of Maduro, but there will be a ton of violence regardless.


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## Skaddix (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Take military action against Brazil or outright declare war.
> 
> Then, and only then, Bolsonaro would have my approval to take action.
> 
> Brazil can't be the agressor state. We have to have the _casus belli_ " Venezuela declared war ".



How good is the Brazilian Military anyway? Relative to South American, Central American and Caribbean Countries.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Drake said:


> Well... He certainly can't be worse than Maduro.



That's the attitude that brings about even worse people.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Are we going to seize the oil from Venezuela now, is that why we're starting a civil war in there?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> How good is the Brazilian Military anyway? Relative to South American, Central American and Caribbean Countries.



Shite as far as World Powers go, but in Latin America is probably amongst the top 3, possibly the best in South America. Can it probably take on Venezuela ? Probably, even more in a long drawn out affair. But it would wreck our economy, maybe not Taurus' economy, but certainly in general would be hard to be between the top 20 GDP if we had a war.

But I don't want to find out.

Outdated but relevant:


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## Skaddix (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Shite as far as World Powers go, but in Latin America is probably amongst the top 3, possibly the best in South America. Can it probably take on Venezuela ? Probably, even more in a long drawn out affair. But it would wreck our economy, maybe not Taurus' economy, but certainly in general would be hard to be between the top 20 GDP if we had a war.
> 
> But I don't want to find out.
> 
> Outdated but relevant:



I imagine fighting in the Amazon and Mountains would also be a real shitshow.


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## Drake (Jan 23, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> How good is the Brazilian Military anyway? Relative to South American, Central American and Caribbean Countries.



Probably the best in that region and one of the largest. Their navy and air force are also relatively decent and they even used to operate an aircraft carrier until just recently (though they now have a helicopter carrier in place).



Owl said:


> Are we going to seize the oil from Venezuela now, is that why we're starting a civil war in there?



Tensions in Venezuela have been brewing for some time now, so the US can't really be blamed for this.


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## wibisana (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Shite as far as World Powers go, but in Latin America is probably amongst the top 3, possibly the best in South America. Can it probably take on Venezuela ? Probably, even more in a long drawn out affair. But it would wreck our economy, maybe not Taurus' economy, but certainly in general would be hard to be between the top 20 GDP if we had a war.
> 
> But I don't want to find out.
> 
> Outdated but relevant:


I thought Brazil would be the Turkey of South Africa (have most of army innthe region)


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## wibisana (Jan 23, 2019)

Btw war would cause more problem than it solved


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

wibisana said:


> Turkey of South Africa


What does this even mean


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I imagine fighting in the Amazon and Mountains would also be a real shitshow.



ACTUALLY, that is the best scenario, believe me if you will. 

It is widely known that Brazil trains for an invasion in the Amazon and our military generally spends time there. 

I asked a friend who serves in the military and he says that many drills and actual training are based and made on the Amazon war scenario and said that as far as being prepared to war, that would actually be better than urban environments, of which  is certainly more well qualified to actually go to outright war (Because we actually ARE in war right now).


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)




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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Drake said:


> Probably the best in that region and one of the largest. Their navy and air force are also relatively decent and they even used to operate an aircraft carrier until just recently (though they now have a helicopter carrier in place).
> 
> 
> 
> Tensions in Venezuela have been brewing for some time now, so the US can't really be blamed for this.



Venezuela and the US has been going at it since Hugo Chavez. It's not until now that we decided to step in and bring Venezuela back to our sphere of influence.


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## wibisana (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> What does this even mean


I mean +1000000 army and shits
Like Turkey


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> Are we going to seize the oil from Venezuela now, is that why we're starting a civil war in there?


Nope, they're not even capable of refining oil IIRC.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

> Marco Bello | Reuters
> 
> Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro
> Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said on Wednesday he was breaking diplomatic relations with the United States, after the Trump administration recognized opposition leader Juan Guaido as the South American country's interim president.
> ...






For you guys that arent up to date, here is a summary so you can understand what is going on:

Maduro's last constitutional term expired on January 10, since the 2018 elections that reelected Maduro were not recognized by a good chunk of the international community.

In the depressed and discredited opposition a guy named Juan Guaido, the president of Congress, rose by implying he would take over as interim president, as the Venezuelan constitution allows for the president of Congress to take the office of president in some case. This sparked in a huge way the mood for protest and demand of change in population that had largely given up on living under a dictatorship and the thing just exploded when the OAS secretary general recognized him as president. The goal with this being, take clearly legal steps (or as close to legal as possible) to give Guaido as much legitimacy as possible and force the armed forces to recognize him as Commander in Chief and turn against Maduro.

Guaido then summoned a mega march scheduled for today, with expectations building up and some anti government demonstrations happening, including one where some guys in the armed forces or security apparatus took arms against Maduro, though they were swiftly dealt with.

Finally today Guaido officially proclaimed himself as president interim of Venezuela in a huge crowd, and with it came international recognition including the US. Which is why now Maduro cut all ties and ordered US diplomats removed.

I think Maduro shoot himself in the foot here, he ordered US diplomats out and indeed per international laws countries have this right, but as the US doesnt recognize Maduro as president they dont have to obey and Guaido countered that order. So if Maduro wants to remove the US diplomats he would have to assault the embassy, providing a causus belli for a military intervention.


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 23, 2019)




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## Drake (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> Venezuela and the US has been going at it since Hugo Chavez. It's not until now that we decided to step in and bring Venezuela back to our sphere of influence.



Okay, but most of Venezuela's current problems are caused by Maduro. It's not a surprise that the people aren't happy with him.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Peru, Argentina and Canada support guiado


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

wibisana said:


> I mean +1000000 army and shits
> Like Turkey


What does South Africa have to do with it though?


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

A division rebels against Maduro


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Nope, they're not even capable of refining oil IIRC.



They are now since we just installed a pro-US government. Imagine all the US oil companies bidding for rights to dig into their reserves.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Drake said:


> Okay, but most of Venezuela's current problems are caused by Maduro. It's not a surprise that the people aren't happy with him.



Venezuela has always been problematic, though. Maybe not as problematic as their neighbors, but they’re also very fragile.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> They are now since we just installed a pro-US government. Imagine all the US oil companies bidding for rights to dig into their reserves.


We didn't install anything.  We recognized the guy as a legitimate leader because the National Assembly elected hihim as opposed to the fradualent election of Maduro before.  OPEC and other countries did the same.


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## wibisana (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> What does South Africa have to do with it though?


Lmao. Mistype.brainlag


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> They are now since we just installed a pro-US government. Imagine all the US oil companies bidding for rights to dig into their reserves.


Trust me, this time, the US really didn't start any shit.


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## Hozukimaru (Jan 23, 2019)

Breaking diplomatic relations doesn't sound good at all. I hope this ends well for the Venezuelans.

I'd prefer the EU maintains diplomatic contact with both sides instead and tries to bring them to the negotiating table so that a peaceful solution can be found in this conflict.

I assume we could also accept a number of fleeing Venezuelans as political refugees. Especially so if things go further south.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> What if US pays you to join other countries in a war against Venezuela?



Hmm that depends. How much?


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> We didn't install anything.  We recognized the guy as a legitimate leader because the National Assembly elected hihim as opposed to the fradualent election of Maduro before.  OPEC and other countries did the same.



OPEC countries, especially in South America are always trying to appease us, with the exception of Venezuela. They have something to gain if they were on the US’ good side and they don’t want to be another Panama.

I’m not saying that we did an American style government overthrow, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we’d been pulling some strings to influence the outcome.



MrGayNight said:


> Trust me, this time, the US really didn't start any shit.



That’s what it looks like from the surface. For now.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Hozukimaru said:


> Breaking diplomatic relations doesn't sound good at all. I hope this ends well for the Venezuelans.
> 
> I'd prefer the EU maintains diplomatic contact with both sides instead and tries to bring them to the negotiating table so that a peaceful solution can be found in this conflict.
> 
> I assume we could also accept a number of fleeing Venezuelans as political refugees. Especially so if things go further south.



What can you negotiate with? Maduro and the PSUV has to leave, any negotiation where they remain in power is unacceptable to Venezuelans. The most you could do is offer then amnesty and guarantee of assylum from charges if they leave power.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 23, 2019)

My worry is that Bolsonaro is the kind of idiot who would offer to do for free.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> OPEC countries, especially in South America are always trying to appease us, with the exception of Venezuela. They have something to gain if they were on the US’ good side and they don’t want to be another Panama.
> 
> I’m not saying that we did an American style government overthrow, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we’d been pulling some strings to influence the outcome.
> 
> ...



Maduro or rather the PSUV is a dictator, through and through. He has to go.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> OPEC countries, especially in South America are always trying to appease us, with the exception of Venezuela. They have something to gain if they were on the US’ good side and they don’t want to be another Panama.


Uh no.  Not at all actually.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> Maduro or rather the PSUV is a dictator, through and through. He has to go.



It’s Latin America, anyone can be a dictator. So long as they’re on the US’ side.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> It’s Latin America, anyone can be a dictator. So long as they’re on the US’ side.



Doesnt deny the fact that he is a dictator and has to go.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> Doesnt deny the fact that he is a dictator and has to go.



And replace him with someone who’s possibly just another tyrant. It’s always been the same narrative for almost a hundred years now.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hozukimaru (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> What can you negotiate with? Maduro and the PSUV has to leave, any negotiation where they remain in power is unacceptable to Venezuelans. The most you could do is offer then amnesty and guarantee of assylum from charges if they leave power.



Well any negotiation would be better than civil war and foreign military intervention.

I can't know the result but I assume the two sides could agree on holding free and fair (as per international observers) legislative and presidential elections.

And maybe the international community can offer to lift Venezuela's suspension of Mercosur membership after the elections.


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## Blue (Jan 23, 2019)

I wish we'd help the Venezuelan people.

But the US is out of the coup business. There's two reasons we did interventions:
1. Oil
2. To own the Soviets

We now have more oil than God Almighty, and the Soviet Union has been RIP for 25 years. I'm afraid Venezuela will have to sort this on their own.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Hozukimaru said:


> Well any negotiation would be better than civil war


The only civil war that can happen in Venezuela is if it's done by the military, I've read an article in the past about the youth and children forming gangs just to find food.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> And replace him with someone who’s possibly just another tyrant. It’s always been the same narrative for almost a hundred years now.


He wasn't deposed.  And no.  This narrative that the US ruins country has gotta stop, its false.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Already posted.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> This narrative that the US ruins country has gotta stop, its false.



Have you been living under a rock these last few years?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> Have you been living under a rock these last few years?


Did you just wake up from the 1980s?

In a post-Cold War world, many of these regional upstart wanna-be dictators could easily be deposed but we (the US) don't do that anymore.  It started in the 90s as the world was in relative peace so the US was able to take a step back from interfering, but now it's quite annoying to see guys like this and Erdogan continue to do what they do because we're trying to take the higher path.  Then still getting blamed for interfering anyway.


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## Island (Jan 23, 2019)

Will merge with the other one when I figure out how to do that.


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## Island (Jan 23, 2019)

Done?


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## Ignition (Jan 23, 2019)

Is this going to become the new 'Operation Condor' ?


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Did you just wake up from the 1980s?
> 
> In a post-Cold War world, many of these regional upstart wanna-be dictators could easily be deposed but we (the US) don't do that anymore.  It started in the 90s as the world was in relative peace so the US was able to take a step back from interfering, but now it's quite annoying to see guys like this and Erdogan continue to do what they do because we're trying to take the higher path.  Then still getting blamed for interfering anyway.



2003 happened 3 yearsafter the 90s ended. You know what happened in that year? The US invaded Iraq.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> 2003 happened 3 yearsafter the 90s ended. You know what happened in that year? The US invaded Iraq.


Yeah and that's a war.  Not a CIA funded  coup.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Yeah and that's a war.  Not a CIA funded  coup.



And the purpose of that war was to _~* o v e r t h r o w ~*_ Saddam because they were “suspected” of nuke production.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> And replace him with someone who’s possibly just another tyrant. It’s always been the same narrative for almost a hundred years now.



You obviously havent been paying attention why the swearing in of Guaido has observed all possible legalities. Guaido is not meant to remain president unless he runs, but to summon fair and free elections.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Owl said:


> And the purpose of that war was to _~* o v e r t h r o w ~*_ Saddam because they were “suspected” of nuke production.


Yeah it was a lie, not saying that the invasion was based on truth.  But the justification was sound, because had Saddam actually had WMDs it wouldn't have affected the entire region + American interests.

Yelling IRAQ WAR isn't a gag rule for all military action this far.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 23, 2019)

Its like Mider T forgot the entire reason the caravan is happening.

The US still does this shit around the world, its not something you should be shocked at.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Ignition said:


> Is this going to become the new 'Operation Condor' ?



OH REALLY ? WHAT GAVE IT AWAY ?

Steve Bannon's connection to Bolsonaro's son and possible interference in our election having the result, again, being a far right guy that loves him some dictatorship and is a lap dog for the US to the point of saluting an US official and is soooooo super pro neoliberalism and get himself elected over fighting invsible, intangible and inexistent communism ? 

Sorry, but I have been thinking this ever since it's been known that Bolsonaro's son had contact with Bannon, but I have literally zero proof of what I'm talking about, so I don't mention it because I HATE conspiracy theories, but I know for a fact that if what I'm saying is really true, then it will never be discovered because of an investigation, we will only know about it in like, 30-50 years. To this day, we're still learning the extent of Operation Condor in Brazil, and the role of Kissinger in talking to our " presidents " during the Dictatorship. I have a friend who is actually doing some heavy work on that shit and is looking to apply for a Master's Degree, with a thesis analyzing the documents in WeakLeaks that no one in the international community bothered to look at and read (This is not a criticism, this is just an affirmation), he has already a undergraduate thesis on that and a published article about it. The only logical action is to follow up on that with a MD and then PhD.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> Its like Mider T forgot the entire reason the caravan is happening.
> 
> The US still does this shit around the world, its not something you should be shocked at.


The entire point was that the US doesn't conduct coups anymore, when it some cases it probably should.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> The entire point was that the US doesn't conduct coups anymore, when it some cases it probably should.



But they DO.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Oh dear god guys, come on, are you seriously defending Maduro right now? I'm not going to talk about whether US coups in the past are good or bad, but you guys have minds from another world if you are seriously trying to place Maduro as a good guy and innocent victim here.


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## Owl (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Yeah it was a lie, not saying that the invasion was based on truth.  But the justification was sound, because had Saddam actually had WMDs it wouldn't have affected the entire region + American interests.
> 
> Yelling IRAQ WAR isn't a gag rule for all military action this far.



Same weapons that we gave them in their war against Iran. And guess what, when Saddam commuted genocide against the Kurds, he was still on the US’ payroll. But what did we do? Absolutely nothing. Why get involved if he’s on our side? It’s not like he was killing Americans.

And we did, and still doing, the same thing in Latin America. We let dictators run amok and once they’ve fallen out of favor we overthrow them.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> The entire point was that the US doesn't conduct coups anymore, when it some cases it probably should.



It shouldn't. Never. 

This destabilised our democracy. For example, Bolsonaro is a direct effect of that. Brazil doesn't really know what a democracy is, and with the heavy (And boy I mean HEAVY) propaganda that the Military Dictatorship did in Brazil, the people actually believe it had an actual reason to have a coup and a Military Dictatorship. Our country isn't one that has closely embraced the concept and value of a democracy. It aided a coup when we had a flourishing democracy and years later a guy gets elected praising the Military Dictatorship, and saying that he loves torture and shit. 

Had we not gone through that, we would have right now a 55 year old democracy, which means, about 13 elections. Our nation would be accostumed to the idea that a leader being there without it's people consent is something crazy and horrible.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 23, 2019)




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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> But they DO.


When was the last time you saw a US-sponsored coup?


Owl said:


> Same weapons that we gave them in their war against Iran. And guess what, when Saddam commuted genocide against the Kurds, he was still on the US’ payroll. But what did we do? Absolutely nothing.


Yeah and that was a mistake.  Actually there were mistakes everywhere.  Saddam originally thought it was okay to invade Kuwait because of a misunderstanding due to our diplomat.  We should have chased him back to Baghdad and ended it then.  We also should have done something about the Kurd gassing.  Ignoring dictators just emboldens them and kicks the can down the curb to cause bigger problems in the future.


Owl said:


> Why get involved if he’s on our side? It’s not like he was killing Americans


Because he was sitting on one of the largest oil deposits in the world and near a major waterway? US interests.


Owl said:


> And we did, and still doing, the same thing in Latin America. We let dictators run amok and once they’ve fallen out of favor we overthrow them.


Before the US involvement in coups were due to business interests, then due to the Cold War.  We aren't sponsoring coups anymore so we're stuck with guys like Chavez and Maduro for 20+ years.


Mr. Black Leg said:


> It shouldn't. Never.


It should, maybe as a last resort but every option should be considered.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Place your bets, will the tyrant dare to go through with it?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> Place your bets, will the tyrant dare to go through with it?



FUUUUUUUCK.

I DON'T WANNA GO TO WAR.

PLEASE NO. 

I'M TOO YOUNG TO DIE !



Mider T said:


> It should, maybe as a last resort but every option should be considered.



The only and possible way a coup is okay is in the case of places like North Korea (If it didn't have any nukes, of course).

Other than extreme of the extreme situations, then please no, you've ruined many people's lives already. The only place I think that the US's influence was actually poster-boy level is South Korea, but you guys just _could not fuck up on that one_ so you ended up doing an amazing job.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> When was the last time you saw a US-sponsored coup?
> .



Do you not know what Syria is?  They are literally US backed coups arming the rebels(a lot of whom are al qaeda fighters by the way) against the Syrian government. Regime change is a big part and parcel of middle east policy and latin american policy


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> The only and possible way a coup is okay is in the case of places like North Korea (If it didn't have any nukes, of course).
> 
> Other than extreme of the extreme situations, then please no, you've ruined many people's lives already. The only place I think that the US's influence was actually poster-boy level is South Korea, but you guys just _could not fuck up on that one_ so you ended up doing an amazing job.


You're mad about coups that took place before and during the Cold War, which I already addressed.  You should instead look to Panama and Grenada.  A coup, like an invasion, shouldn't be just get the other guy out and go home.  It should involve us actually staying, propping up legitimate and strong institutions, and vetting for the best replacement candidate until a fair election can take place.  We really should have stayed around in Libya to assist the Transitional Government like was repeatedly recommended.  Now we'll probably be back within the decade.


Inuhanyou said:


> Do you not know what Syria is? They are literally US backed coups arming the rebels(a lot of whom are al qaeda fighters by the way) against the Syrian government. Regime change is a big part and parcel of middle east policy and latin american policy


You mean the rebellion/civil war where Assad is still in power because we half-asked once again? No.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You're mad about coups that took place before and during the Cold War, which I already addressed. You should instead look to Panama and Grenada. A coup, like an invasion, shouldn't be just get the other guy out and go home. It should involve us actually staying, propping up legitimate and strong institutions, and vetting for the best replacement candidate until a fair election can take place. We really should have stayed around in Libya to assist the Transitional Government like was repeatedly recommended. Now we'll probably be back within the decade.



You say fair, legitimate and strong institutions, but the second a guy disagrees with you, he's labelled as communist and threat.

We all know what happens if someone who is a legitimate candidate doesn't like the US. He does not win the election.

To the point of being ironic you guys crying so much because Russia meddled in one election of the US. You have done it more times than I can count.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

>This thread


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> You say fair, legitimate and strong institutions, but the second a guy disagrees with you, he's labelled as communist and threat.
> 
> We all know what happens if someone who is a legitimate candidate doesn't like the US. He does not win the election.
> 
> To the point of being ironic you guys crying so much because Russia meddled in one election of the US. You have done it more times than I can count.


Disagreeing with the US doesn't make a candidate illegitimate, that's old news.  You're still stuck on Cold War stuff.

And yeah Russia meddling in our election was a big deal.


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## wibisana (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> He wasn't deposed.  And no.  This narrative that the US ruins country has gotta stop, its false.


Sure mr CIA agent
I believe in you


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> FUUUUUUUCK.
> 
> I DON'T WANNA GO TO WAR.
> 
> ...



This is not Syria or Irak. Maduro has nearly no popular support base and like 99.99% of his support come from the armed forces, which only back him because of the businesses they get to do with him and because they know they will go to prison if the PSUV falls.

Should there be an actual incoming invasion Maduro would just get couped immediately, or the high command would flee to another country.




Mr. Black Leg said:


> The only and possible way a coup is okay is in the case of places like North Korea (If it didn't have any nukes, of course).
> 
> Other than extreme of the extreme situations, then please no, you've ruined many people's lives already. The only place I think that the US's influence was actually poster-boy level is South Korea, but you guys just _could not fuck up on that one_ so you ended up doing an amazing job.



Venezuela is in a NK-like situation too. Maduro is a dictator and the people want him gone, why wouldnt a coup against him be okay?


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## Raiden (Jan 23, 2019)

Have family members in Guyana, which is very close to Venezuela. Deeply worrying situation.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You mean the rebellion/civil war where Assad is still in power because we half-asked once again? No.



Yes. Regime change failed because Iran and Russia stepped in, but the US and it's allies still attempted it. Libya on the other hand worked out 'just fine'.



Orochibuto said:


> Venezuela is in a NK-like situation too. Maduro is a dictator and the people want him gone, why wouldnt a coup against him be okay?



Because it's against international law to meddle in other countries' businesses. Because puppet governments should be a thing of the past for south america.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Because it's against international law to meddle in other countries' businesses. Because puppet governments should be a thing of the past for south america.



So, what do you think should be done when there is a dictatotship, the people of the country dont want the dictator and they cant oust him because he has the army in his pockets?


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> So, what do you think should be done when there is a dictatotship, the people of the country dont want the dictator and they cant oust him because he has the army in his pockets?


Leave them, it's not going to be a problem for the US anyway if my prediction of the return of US 'isolationism' is true.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Yes. Regime change failed because Iran and Russia stepped in, but the US and it's allies still attempted it. Libya on the other hand worked out 'just fine'.


We didn't actively engage in a coup in Syria, we played a support role in a Civil War. Not the same thing.  I already addressed Libya so you must have selective reading.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Disagreeing with the US doesn't make a candidate illegitimate, that's old news. You're still stuck on Cold War stuff.



The US is currently backing up Bolsonaro because he's a lap dog to the US.

You guys weren't very fond of Lula, because he slowly but surely moved away from you guys and closer to and closer to China's economic orbit. Obama's tactic was diplomacy-based to try and straighten our ties again. I'm not so sure on what would be Trump's but I'm guessing he would include Brazil in his trade war if we didn't suck US's balls. But we may never find out, as both Bolsonaro and Trump seem to be here to stay a long time (At the very least till' 2022, Bolsonaro and Trump at least until 2020).

Thing is I really don't know what is best anymore: being on the good side of Trump (And therefore the US) or the bad. He hurts his own allies, and we could actually benefit from a trade war with the US to further straighten our relations with China (Something Bolsonaro will never do, because he adopted Trump's anti-China rhetoric).



Mider T said:


> And yeah Russia meddling in our election was a big deal.



Because it happened to YOU. You guys do that all the time. It's like that kid that mocks everyone but can't take a joke himself.



Orochibuto said:


> This is not Syria or Irak. Maduro has nearly no popular support base and like 99.99% of his support come from the armed forces, which only back him because of the businesses they get to do with him and because they know they will go to prison if the PSUV falls.
> 
> Should there be an actual incoming invasion Maduro would just get couped immediately, or the high command would flee to another country.



My current president is a bloodthirsty and a war-monger and I'm in the reserve of Brazil's Military and in age. It's not like " If needed he might start a war ". It's " If anyone even mentions war he goes like ' DID YOU JUST SAY WAR ? LET'S DOOO IT ' ".



Orochibuto said:


> Venezuela is in a NK-like situation too. Maduro is a dictator and the people want him gone, why wouldnt a coup against him be okay?



Because you can count US's interference that didn't 1 - create a power vaccum and threw the country in chaos, not likely to recuperate itself in at least a decade 2 - made the country a big US lap dog that obeys the US, 3 - created countries like mine, who aren't very familiar with the idea of a full blown democracy. The US aiding Venezuela is one thing, I'm already not super excited about this prospect because it creates a US lap dog, enacting a coup and controlling it is a different situation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> The US is currently backing up Bolsonaro because he's a lap dog to the US.


No it's because he is a strongman like Trump himself.  Trump likes him the rest of the US government is ambivalent at best.


Mr. Black Leg said:


> Because it happened to YOU. You guys do that all the time. It's like that kid that mocks everyone but can't take a joke himself.



Ffs dude, stop bringing up the Cold War.  The US doesn't do this anymore.  And anyway, a kleptocracy like Russia being able to control the election of the World most powerful country is alot more dangerous than some regional power election.  Our institutions are supposed supercede all powerful men.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> No it's because he is a strongman like Trump himself. Trump likes him the rest of the US government is ambivalent at best.



I seriously doubt that if anyone with an anti-US agenda rises to power in Brazil, that person won't be re-elected. If that person even gets to power in the first place. 



Mider T said:


> Ffs dude, stop bringing up the Cold War. The US doesn't do this anymore. And anyway, a kleptocracy like Russia being able to control the election of the World most powerful country is alot more dangerous than some regional power election. Our institutions are supposed supercede all powerful men.








> Overall, 117 partisan electoral interventions were made by the US and the USSR/Russia between 1 January 1946 and 31 December 2000. Eighty-one (or 69%) of these interventions were done by the US while the other 36 cases (or 31%) were conducted by the USSR/ Russia. To put this number in the proper perspective, during the same period 937 competitive national-level executive elections, or plausible targets for an electoral intervention, were conducted within independent countries.20 Accordingly, 11.3% of these elections, or about one of every nine competitive elections since the end of the Second World War, have been the targets of an electoral intervention



You were saying ?


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> and we could actually benefit from a trade war with the US to further straighten our relations with China


That seems like a very simplistic and bad reason to start a trade war with a super power right next to you that has a history of fucking up Latin America when they don't get their way.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> That seems like a very simplistic and bad reason to start a trade war with a super power right next to you that has a history of fucking up Latin America when they don't get their way.



Who said we would be the ones to start ???? The US starts trade wars now because of literally nothing, Trump is just that unstable. 

What I'm saying is that, with the damage he has done to his own allies, I really don't know if actually being an ally of the US and backing the US in the international scene is very smart, literally everyone is mad at the US because of how unstable it is. Germany, France, China, México, Canada. All of them are at the very doubtful and suspicious of the US right now, because the deal is: We don't fucking know if Trump is going to wake up and think " Huuum, actually Germany is causing an economic disaster in the US. Let's put higher taxes on everything from Germany and start a trade war ! ". Like seriously, the international community sleeps in fear of what Trump might do next because he's so fucking unstable. 

So, actually siding with China and the EU may actually benefit Brazil for once.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> You were saying ?


"Ffs dude, stop bringing up the Cold War. The US doesn't do this anymore. And anyway, a kleptocracy like Russia being able to control the election of the World most powerful country is alot more dangerous than some regional power election. Our institutions are supposed supercede all powerful men."


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> "Ffs dude, stop bringing up the Cold War. The US doesn't do this anymore. And anyway, a kleptocracy like Russia being able to control the election of the World most powerful country is alot more dangerous than some regional power election. Our institutions are supposed supercede all powerful men."



... Again, when it happens to the US is bad because it's happening to you guys and when it happens to us is okay because we're some developing country and who gives a shit anyway ? 

Both are wrong.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Also, you probably have the impression that I support a coup of Maduro, I don't.  I would support a coup if it ever came to extreme measures, like if someone like Erdogan were to rule a country to Egypt or Panama with a Canal that affects prices of goods and shipping worldwide.  Anything they said could drive up prices if they were unstable enough.  Guys like that have no places leading such a strategic country, although coups are never the first resort.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> ... Again, when it happens to the US is bad because it's happening to you guys and when it happens to us is okay because we're some developing country and who gives a shit anyway ?
> 
> Both are wrong.


The consequences are alot more dire, so it's not the same.  This isn't even biased speaking.  A Russian puppet as US President is bad for the world.  Trump doesn't quite fit that mold (he was already a rich candidate before the Russians got him, he wasn't trained to be loyal to the Kremlin or anything) but its unsettling.  That's essentially world domination for Putin.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Why are you @Mr. Black Leg  talking about interventionism anyway? From what i've been hearing, the media aren't parading intervention, but collusion, and depending on how the case with Trump goes, treason.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Why are you @Mr. Black Leg  talking about interventionism anyway? From what i've been hearing, the media aren't parading intervention, but collusion, and depending on how the case with Trump goes, treason.


Owl (incorrectly) assumed that the US deposed Maduro and then the hotheads were off to the races.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Owl (incorrectly) assumed that the US deposed Maduro and then the hotheads were off to the races.


Oh no, i'm not talking about this conspiracy theory that the US is performing a coup, it was about his comments the media complaining about russian intervention.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Why are you @Mr. Black Leg talking about interventionism anyway? From what i've been hearing, the media aren't parading intervention, but collusion, and depending on how the case with Trump goes, treason.



I'm talking about interference in Elections. Which happened to the US and the US turned into a cry baby about it.

You either condemn foreign electoral intervention, or you do it. Doing it and condemning when another country does it against you is basically Hypocrisy 101.



Mider T said:


> The consequences are alot more dire, so it's not the same. This isn't even biased speaking. A Russian puppet as US President is bad for the world. Trump doesn't quite fit that mold (he was already a rich candidate before the Russians got him, he wasn't trained to be loyal to the Kremlin or anything) but its unsettling. That's essentially world domination for Putin.



You seem to imply that the US has some sort of moral high ground over Russia. I'll assure you: the only place where the US has a high ground over Russia/URSS is in Rocky Movies. I'm not trying to do some whataboutism, but the shit that the US gets away is just incredible. When Putin says that the US has no credibility to condemn any of his actions, I do agree. 

And I'm not saying that I would rather have world controlled by Putin, nor that I'm on Russia's side on any level. But the US's propaganda of itself as the big problem solver of the world is just untrue, and you know it. 

Well, anyways, back to the topic at hand: the world hasn't gone into the stage of an Unipolar Power, so relax for now, if you don't fuck up next election and re-elect Trump, then there's not much to worry about and I agree with you that that would be bad and worse than currently is, the US has more power in the world, of course, but it's not a Unipolar world, I do believe in that the world is becoming Multipolar. The US will never go away for good, but China is inching closer. India has to fix some internal issues to be on their A game. BRICS, U.E, USA. I used to think that that would be the Multipolar powers in the world. But now, I've come to the realization that it will probably be RIC, E.U and USA.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I'm talking about interference in Elections. Which happened to the US and the US turned into a cry baby about it.
> 
> You either condemn foreign electoral intervention, or you do it. Doing it and condemning when another country does it against you is basically Hypocrisy 101.
> 
> ...


You're naive then.  Putin is virtually a leader for life and had killed so many journalists and opposition openly that it's become a meme.  If you prefer that regularly undertakes peacekeeping missions, founded NATO and the UN, the Red Cross and the Peace Corps, literally saved the world, then you're no better than SoG who would rather see the world burn under Russia than prosper under the US.  It's no secret that US hegemony occured during the same time and the most peaceful decade in history


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## Blue (Jan 23, 2019)

If we tried to overthrow Syria, it would be overthrown into space. Assad would be sitting in a jail in Colorado.
We supported factions in the civil war that appealed to our sensibilities, as did MOST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.
And when those factions proved useless, we proceeded to not care.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> It's no secret that US hegemony occured during the same time and the most peaceful decade in history


US didn't really create peace, rather it stopped that peace from being disrupted in the West, at the expense of other countries.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> US didn't really create peace, rather it stopped that peace from being disrupted in the West, at the expense of other countries.


I agree with this.


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## Blue (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> You seem to imply that the US has some sort of moral high ground over Russia. I'll assure you: the only place where the US has a high ground over Russia/URSS is in Rocky Movies. I'm not trying to do some whataboutism, but the shit that the US gets away is just incredible. When Putin says that the US has no credibility to condemn any of his actions, I do agree.
> 
> And I'm not saying that I would rather have world controlled by Putin, nor that I'm on Russia's side on any level. But the US's propaganda of itself as the big problem solver of the world is just untrue, and you know it.


Yeah nah you are horribly ignorant. 
First of all, our president doesn't have journalists killed. Or even charge them with libel, which he could do legally.

Second of all, we pretty much did solve all the problems in the world. Not because we're the Good Guys™, but because we used global trade as a weapon against Soviet communism and in pursuit of this pretty much cancelled war. The Pax Americana, which we are still in, is easily the most peaceful period in human history.
"Waaaah but you guys started wars!"
Yeah, a few, but only against people who didn't play tradeball. Countries that DID play tradeball got wealthy and prosperous so there wasn't a reason not to besides being a totalitarian communist piece of shit.

But that period of history is coming to an end. We've officially stopped giving a fuck. Trump pulled out dry, but Hillary or anyone else would have started the process. You're gonna find out what a world without the Pax Americana is like. And you will not enjoy it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochibuto (Jan 23, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Leave them,



So fuck them and have fun living in a dictatorship, I see.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> So fuck them and have fun living in a dictatorship, I see.


Internationally, people are complaining about US interventionism, and it seems to me the US has more campaigns being against interventionism. So yeah I think that's whats going to happen.

The US used to directly intervene at the expense of other countries to maintain peace in the west and now it isolates itself from the world's conflict at the expense of peace...that pretty much sounds like what I want to happen.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

What the hell Mexico?


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## Blue (Jan 23, 2019)

Mider T said:


> What the hell Mexico?


New Mexican president is a douchebag and under pressure not to 'follow Trump'.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Blue said:


> New Mexican president is a douchebag and under pressure not to 'follow Trump'.


From another forum they said that Mexico was taking the stance of "wait-and-see", so they're being neutral right now.

But another says they're going through a socialist phase also.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 23, 2019)

Blue said:


> Yeah nah you are horribly ignorant.
> First of all, our president doesn't have journalists killed. Or even charge them with libel, which he could do legally.



But defends the guy who ordered them getting killed.

Both of the guys.



Blue said:


> Second of all, we pretty much did solve all the problems in the world.





Oh yeah, forgot about that time when world hunger, all possible wars, drugs, environmental problems and racism were solved by the US. I'm so dumb.



Blue said:


> Not because we're the Good Guys™



But of course you are, you solved all the problems in the world. Look at you, so humble even though you're such a hero for ending homophobia too. We're all thankful for it.



Blue said:


> but because we used global trade as a weapon against Soviet communism and in pursuit of this pretty much cancelled war.



Funny story: the realization that as the world becomes more and more connected, specially economically, the less wars will happen, is not new nor the idea was invented by Americans, it is a basic concept stemming from, what I like to call the most rudimentary form of capitalism, of course I'm talking about Mercantilism. It was not as widespread as much as it is today, and of course that it was not as applicable as today.  Technology plays a HUGE ROLE: it makes everything more easy and convenient for the idea of interconnected global trade.

But go on, Fukuyama, tell us how the US won History and Humankind.



Blue said:


> The Pax Americana, which we are still in, is easily the most peaceful period in human history.



Okay, I'm not denying that but literally, your third sentence was about how you solved the World's problems. You didn't.

NK has large and widespread famine amongst it's citizens, and it's the system they are in the one at fault. Famine in the capitalist world is the system's design.

(I'M NOT DEFENDING NK, FOR THE LOVE OF FUCKING GOD DON'T SAY I AM, I AM JUST POINTING OUT THE HYPOCRISY IN SAYING THAT " SOCIALISM " DOESN'T WORK WHILE HAVING TO DEAL WITH SIMILAR PROBLEMS YOURSELF. You have been warned I even put it in all caps so you read that clearly, I'm not defending NK at all, if I had one wish was to free them off their disgraceful system)

You can't claim to have solved the world while creating more problems yourself. Your " stopping communism " killed and destroyed many innocents lives. I know a teacher who to this day has to deal with PTSD and anxiety + has a problem in her right leg all because of torture. This is what you created. This is what you claim to be the world solved. It is not.



Blue said:


> "Waaaah but you guys started wars!"



You did way more than that. The world would be good had the worst wrongdoing of the US been " wars ".



Blue said:


> Yeah, a few, but only against people who didn't play tradeball. Countries that DID play tradeball got wealthy and prosperous so there wasn't a reason not to besides being a totalitarian communist piece of shit.



Funny how you casually reference how much of an authoritarian the US is/was to the world while criticizing totalitarian regimes.

I've seen this trend before in you people from the US. Like sucking cock from someone like Theodore Roosevelt.

Your peace is at the expense of many lives and many people either bowing down to you or dying.



Blue said:


> But that period of history is coming to an end. We've officially stopped giving a fuck. Trump pulled out dry, but Hillary or anyone else would have started the process. You're gonna find out what a world without the Pax Americana is like. And you will not enjoy it.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Trump is keeping the world from seizing power from the US ? Specially economic ?

Ok, then, you won the debate. There's nothing I can tell someone who actually believes that, that will make them change their minds.



Mider T said:


> You're naive then. Putin is virtually a leader for life and had killed so many journalists and opposition openly that it's become a meme. If you prefer that regularly undertakes peacekeeping missions, founded NATO and the UN, the Red Cross and the Peace Corps, literally saved the world, then you're no better than SoG who would rather see the world burn under Russia than prosper under the US. It's no secret that US hegemony occured during the same time and the most peaceful decade in history



Prosper ? Prosper ? How the fuck do you call torture prospering ? How the fuck do you call the death of innocents prospering ? It's prospering for _*you*_. What you can see is prosperity. But trust me, people who wanted to vote in Brazil, back in 1970 would disagree hard with you that the US brought forth prosperity.

And who is SoG ? And I'm not saying the world has to get rid of the US. But if you stop relativizing the wrongdoings of the US, and actually understood that even when it's fighting against " communism " (Brazil was never under communist threat, if you guys looked at a red jersey at the time you'd call communism), overthrowing democracies IS NOT okay. Don't try to relativize with " It was in the Cold War tensions were high ". Just own up the mistake of the US. My country fucked up many times before. I don't go around saying " Hey, the War of the Triple Alliance was okay, the stakes were high, reducing Paraguay to it's bones was okay ". 

Oh and just to tell you: Peace without Freedom isn't Peace, it's Fear.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 23, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> SoG


Son of Goku


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## Amol (Jan 23, 2019)

Maduro is piece of shit but I don't want him to be killed in random coup. For Venezuelan democracy to survive he should be tried with full extent and law and then sentenced properly. 
Hopefully this problem gets solved internally. New Government tends to lose legitimacy when foreign powers do everything for them. This is still better for Venezuela despite the fact I know that there is going to be body count here.


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## wibisana (Jan 23, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> This is not Syria or Irak. Maduro has nearly no popular support base and like 99.99% of his support come from the armed forces, which only back him because of the businesses they get to do with him and because they know they will go to prison if the PSUV falls.
> 
> Should there be an actual incoming invasion Maduro would just get couped immediately, or the high command would flee to another country.
> 
> ...


Would it make the people rally behind Maduro against foreign agression?
Idk South American mindset but it Indonesiaj rather die than being occupied


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## Canute87 (Jan 24, 2019)

Has there ever been a case where non US intervention made things worse?

or is that US just wants to kill the cancer before it spreads?


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2019)

the American regime did not stop barking since 2016 when they thought someone "interfered" in their affairs 
and here they are interfering in everyone's affairs...


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

wibisana said:


> Would it make the people rally behind Maduro against foreign agression?
> Idk South American mindset but it Indonesiaj rather die than being occupied



No, Venezuelans prefer military intervention than Maduro.

Stalin pre-Barbarossa likely had more or around the same popular support than Maduro in Venezuela.

Even when you confront Venezuelans with US taking their oil they just dont care, because Maduro gave their oil to Cuba and Russia, so as far as they are concerned they prefer to be robbed by the US.

National sovereignty doesnt have a large appeal either because of the Cuban intervention.

You would need something like the Nazis invading Venezuela, intent on staging a genocide of Venezuelans so Venezuelans have to choose between literally being murdered or rally behind Maduro.


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 24, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Take military action against Brazil or outright declare war.
> 
> Then, and only then, Bolsonaro would have my approval to take action.
> 
> Brazil can't be the agressor state. We have to have the _casus belli_ " Venezuela declared war ".



Meaning you wouldn't consider a humanitarian crisis and Govermental abuse of any kind ever reason enough for intervention ?


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## epyoncloud (Jan 24, 2019)

Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, so US wants to rape them as hard as possible and install a friendly puppet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 24, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Meaning you wouldn't consider a humanitarian crisis and Govermental abuse of any kind ever reason enough for intervention ?



Because of this:



Amol said:


> Maduro is piece of shit but I don't want him to be killed in random coup. For Venezuelan democracy to survive he should be tried with full extent and law and then sentenced properly.
> Hopefully this problem gets solved internally. New Government tends to lose legitimacy when foreign powers do everything for them. This is still better for Venezuela despite the fact I know that there is going to be body count here.



Invade and an Intervene Venezuela, and watch as the country stumbles and trips in it's own democracy across decades after the Occupation.

Interventions, Occupations, Invasions and Coups are generally a sign that a country will have problems with it's Democracy when you go away.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 24, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Interventions, Occupations, Invasions and Coups are generally a sign that a country will have problems with it'd Democracy when you go away.


Grenada is fine tho.


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## Canute87 (Jan 24, 2019)

epyoncloud said:


> Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, *so US wants to rape them as hard as possible *and install a friendly puppet.



they are eating out of the garbage.

Isn't venezuela already in shambles?


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## Trojan (Jan 24, 2019)

this thread is hilarious... 
I don't know which one is funnier, the topic at hand or the American denial /naivety


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> Has there ever been a case where non US intervention made things worse?
> 
> or is that US just wants to kill the cancer before it spreads?


The latter.  The US am has rarely if ever made a violence in a country worse.  If it did, it was intentional.


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## RavenSupreme (Jan 24, 2019)

*EU backs Guaidó!
*
On mobile currently. Will update with link later

(And Russia is not happy going by a funny RT headline)


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 24, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Grenada is fine tho.



Lybia, Iraq (How many times ? 3 ? 4 ? I don't remember), Brazil (Who just voted in a guy with a military dictatorship fetish who praises torture), Iran (I think it was two or three different times), Yemen, Panama, Cuba (You guys forget that at _first _the Cuban Revolution wasn't much about communism, it was about Fulgencio Batista being a puppet of the US and Cuba was the playground of the US while it's citizens were in conditions similar to currently Venezuela, the USSR support and idea to go on full Marxist came relatively late after the Revolution had started, and that is why I say: at first Fidel's Revolution is not only legitimate, but also necessary), Afghanistan (Don't remember how many times), Egypt (I think it twice, I'm not sure), Nicaragua, El Salvador, Philippines, Guatemala, DRC, Lebanon, Vietnam (Including among other things, the My Lai massacre), Peru, Ghana ... 

I think I've made my point.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> The latter. The US am has rarely if ever made a violence in a country worse. If it did, it was intentional.



Arming and training militias in the Middle East ... Surely the US did not see what was coming for them. 

Qutbism would take form and shapes that the US had never imagined: the US  is to be blamed, at large, for contemporary terrorism in the Middle East and Muslim World.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

Amol said:


> Maduro is piece of shit but I don't want him to be killed in random coup. For Venezuelan democracy to survive he should be tried with full extent and law and then sentenced properly.
> Hopefully this problem gets solved internally. New Government tends to lose legitimacy when foreign powers do everything for them. This is still better for Venezuela despite the fact I know that there is going to be body count here.



You are aware the only reason the regime is putting so much resistance to go away is precisely because of the prospect of being tried and sentenced, right?

Unlike other regimes, the Chavistas were unique in that they didnt secured the armed forces through patriotism, fear or discipline, but by allowing and encouraging the commanders being criminal and corrupt as fuck, that way they HAVE to look after the regime, because if it falls, they too.

On the contrary, a broad amnesty is needed. A situation where the higher ups in Venezuela are facing trial, is likely the only situation where they would even fight US military to death. If you go for a posture of putting them to trail, the only way they will go out is civil war or invasion, because if all they have to look forward to is a prison cell or the hangman, what incentive do they have to step down peacefully?


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## Saishin (Jan 24, 2019)

I think Trump did the right thing by recognizing Guaido,it's time to overthrow that clown,Venezuela is in desperate conditions,people are starving over there


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## Saishin (Jan 24, 2019)

*China 'opposes' foreign interference in Venezuelan crisis*

BEIJING: China said on Thursday (Jan 24) it opposed external interference in Venezuelan politics, after the US and major South American countries  over President Nicolas Maduro in a power struggle.

China is Venezuela's main creditor and Maduro visited the country in September, striking energy and gold mining deals as he sought Beijing's support to help his crisis-hit nation.


Maduro now faces trouble at home, where Guaido proclaimed himself acting president on Wednesday amid rival protests in Caracas.

"China has consistently pursued the principle of not interfering with other countries' internal politics, and opposes the interference (in) Venezuelan affairs by external forces," said Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Hua Chunying at a press briefing in Beijing.

"We are paying close attention to the current situation in Venezuela and are calling on all parties to remain rational and calm, and to seek a political resolution to Venezuela's problem through peaceful dialogue within Venezuela's constitutional framework," Hua added.

Asked whether China recognises Maduro, Hua recalled that Beijing had sent a representatives to his inauguration earlier this month.


"We support the efforts made by the Venezuelan government to maintain the country's sovereignty, independence, and stability," she added.

Major regional players Brazil, Colombia, Chile, Peru and Argentina all gave their backing to Guaido's self-proclamation as acting president.

The European Union called for free elections to restore democracy.

After US President Donald Trump recognised Guaido as interim leader, Maduro said he was cutting off diplomatic ties with Washington and gave US diplomats 72 hours to depart.

The US State Department responded by saying "former president Maduro" did not have the authority to sever relations.

Maduro was re-elected last May in voting boycotted by the majority of the opposition and dismissed as fraudulent by the United States, European Union and Organization of American States (OAS).

The 56-year-old leader was sworn in as president on Jan 10.

Maduro has control of virtually all of Venezuela's political institutions and enjoys the support of the military, but many blame him for the country's economic woes, which have left much of the population living in poverty with shortages of basic foods and medicines.

China has extended more than US$60 billion in credit to the South American country over the last decade.

Venezuela still owes Beijing about US$20 billion and has been repaying the debt with oil shipments.


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## RavenSupreme (Jan 24, 2019)

Venezuela still owes Beijing about US$20 billion and has been repaying the debt with oil shipments.


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

epyoncloud said:


> Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world, so US wants to rape them as hard as possible and install a friendly puppet.


Nah.  If we wanted to do that we'd have done it a long time ago.


Mr. Black Leg said:


> Arming and training militias in the Middle East ... Surely the US did not see what was coming for them.



Why were militias there in the first place?  What was our goal in arming them?  Understand context.  Because just "arming militias" isn't a bad thing in itself.



> Qutbism would take form and shapes that the US had never imagined: the US is to be blamed, at large, for contemporary terrorism in the Middle East and Muslim World


Nope you're talking out of your ass here.
Qutb was radicalized because he was at odds with American culture from when he lived in America.  As a matter of fact, do you even know when he lived?


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## Blue (Jan 24, 2019)

Reminder to all the America haters still living in the 20th century: The US is now the world's largest oil producer and an oil exporter.


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## RavenSupreme (Jan 24, 2019)

Blue said:


> Reminder to all the America haters still living in the 20th century: The US is now the world's largest oil producer and an oil exporter.



Which explains why they are opposed to Ru/EU oil and gas economic relations and the talks about "energy security" are pretextual


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## Blue (Jan 24, 2019)

RavenSupreme said:


> Which explains why they are opposed to Ru/EU oil and gas economic relations and the talks about "energy security" are pretextual




You got it.


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## RavenSupreme (Jan 24, 2019)

Blue said:


> You got it.



And I am not even opposed to importing US oil and gas. Being able to get the juicy energy deal offers from all major exporteurs means a nice price for me


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Why were militias there in the first place? What was our goal in arming them? Understand context. Because just "arming militias" isn't a bad thing in itself.



Proxy wars against communism.



Mider T said:


> Nope you're talking out of your ass here.
> Qutb was radicalized because he was at odds with American culture from when he lived in America. As a matter of fact, do you even know when he lived?



Yes. Qutbism was radicalized in it's essence, I'm not saying that " Qutb was such a nice guy then the big bad US fucked him and he got evil ", no, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that while Qutbism was radicalized, the US just gave more meaning to it, gave it a fertile ground where to grow on and had previously armed militias to fight for them, that, as we know, ended up backfiring. And it would grow to create dictators and what Western society in general thinks about when we throw around the words " terrorism " or " terrorist ".

Nothing much, am I right ?


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Proxy wars against communism


For like the 15th time, I'm not talking about the Cold War.
If conditions exist for militias to form and the IS has armed them in the last 20 years, then it's almost always because the country is a shithole ran by an incompetent leader who has caused mass discontent.  With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan these places already started rebelling before the US showed up.


Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yes. Qutbism was radicalized in it's essence, I'm not saying that " Qutib was such a nice guy then the big bad US fucked him and he got evil ", no, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that while Qutbism was radicalized, the US just gave more meaning to it, gave it a fertile ground where to grow on and had previously armed militias to fight for them, that, as we know, ended up backfiring. And it would grow to create dictators and what Western society in general thinks about when we throw around the words " terrorism " or " terrorist ".
> 
> Nothing much, am I right ?


Not really.  Look at Afghanistan and Iran before the late 1970s and look at them now, which is better?  Look at Saudi Arabia back when movie theaters were allowed and look at it before last year.  Contrast Jordan with Pakistan.  American influence makes countries better by association.  Speaking English, watching American movies, eating at American restaurants, going to America is a status symbol for country on the come-up.  You don't see this just in the Middle East and Africa but also in Eastern Europe after the Iron Curtain fell.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 24, 2019)

For fucks sake this damn derailment.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> For like the 15th time, I'm not talking about the Cold War.
> If conditions exist for militias to form and the IS has armed them in the last 20 years, then it's almost always because the country is a shithole ran by an incompetent leader who has caused mass discontent. With the exception of Iraq and Afghanistan these places already started rebelling before the US showed up.



Oh, I was talking much further back, not about 20 years. That's why I brought up Qutbism. I think this explains now why you said this:



Mider T said:


> do you even know when he lived?



You thought I was talking about last 20 years.



Mider T said:


> Not really. Look at Afghanistan and Iran before the late 1970s and look at them now, which is better? Look at Saudi Arabia back when movie theaters were allowed and look at it before last year. Contrast Jordan with Pakistan. American influence makes countries better by association. Speaking English, watching American movies, eating at American restaurants, going to America is a status symbol for country on the come-up. You don't see this just in the Middle East and Africa but also in Eastern Europe after the Iron Curtain fell.



If by " American influence ", you mean " American (And British) coup for oil ". Again, that is precisely WHY the coup was bad. Because of what happened later because of it's polarization.

The US's coup is what legitimized Ayatollah Khomeini, that gigantic peace of shit.

Let's say, for the sake of the hypothetical argument I'm trying to make, Brazil invades the US, orchestrate a coup and tries to imprint Brazilian values. For the sake of the argument and the joke, let's say Brazil makes a waxing policy. Waxing is amazing, waxing is good, sex is much better with waxed private parts and if you disagree you ain't deserve oral. But, of course, big bad Brazil also steals and monopolizes US's petroleum. There's an overthrow of the Brazilian power and influence over the US, and, of course, the new leaders will gain power and quickly rise in popularity if they show themselves anti-Brazil as much as possible, even on good legacies of Brazil, such as waxing. So, the country becomes radicalized anti-wax because it conflates " waxing " with the time that a foreign power took over the US, even though it's a good value.

That's the same but replace Brazil with US and UK, US with Iran, and waxing with western values.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> So, what do you think should be done when there is a dictatotship, the people of the country dont want the dictator and they cant oust him because he has the army in his pockets?


 
Abide the law and the principle that meddling is forbidden, unless the security councils decides it's ok. This is VERY FAR from perfect, but what is the alternative? Allowing foreign interventions as long as it's against dictatorships? Is Maduro the only 'dictator' that needs to be disposed? Is he even close to being the worst? Where does it end? Who decides who has to go and who replaces them?

The current agreement isn't just not perfect, it's also being frequently undermined (especially by the US, with impunity). But in the end, getting rid of what little order we have would make things a lot worse.



Mider T said:


> We didn't actively engage in a coup in Syria, we played a support role in a Civil War. Not the same thing.


 
Yeah, yeah...




> *The US Empire Has Been Trying To Regime Change Syria Since Long Before 2011*
> 
> 
> Apr 11, 2018
> ...






> *WikiLeaks Reveals How the US Aggressively Pursued Regime Change in Syria, Igniting a Bloodbath*
> 
> By
> Robert Reuel Naiman,
> ...


_See source for full text._






Mider T said:


> Ffs dude, stop bringing up the Cold War.  The US doesn't do this anymore.


Blatant lie, which doesn't get better the more you tell it.



> And anyway, a kleptocracy like Russia being able to control the election of the World most powerful country is alot more dangerous than some regional power election.



So what you're saying is that, in truth, Russia is the world's most powerful country? And all that with 40k dollars worth of facebook ads, my my....
Well, since voting has become virtually senseless, Americans should write Putin letters and name who they want as President in 2020. If you ask nicely, he might consider it.



> Our institutions are supposed supercede all powerful men.



The fact that that's nothing more than a noble pipe dream has nothing to with the Russians.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Not really.  Look at Afghanistan and Iran before the late 1970s and look at them now, which is better?


Look at democratic Iran in 1950-53 and then look at what happened after the CIA coup, which was better? Look at Soviet ally Afghanistan before 1979 and after when the US backed Mujahedeen prevailed and morphed into the Taliban, which was better? Look at New York's skyline prior to 9/11 and after, which is better?


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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

@Mider T
Uncle Sam doing "Allah's" work.



> *'Saudi spread Wahabism at the request of the West'*
> April 02 2018 11:30 PM
> 
> saudi arabia Wahabism Mohamed bin Salman
> ...


Mohamed bin Salman


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

the fact of the matter is, nobody is saying russia or china or these other players are any less scummy(or even more scummy in the realm of direct dictatorships of their own people)

But the US's encroach around the world by military deposition, is just a fact of life. Its impossible to deny such a thing, it would be like trying to deny the size of the annual military budget. Its a fact of life.

Do you want America to be famous instead of infamous, or do you want the status quo which only hurts the US? I think the answer should be pretty clear.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> the fact of the matter is, nobody is saying russia or china or these other players are any less scummy(or even more scummy in the realm of direct dictatorships of their own people)
> 
> But the US's encroach around the world by military deposition, is just a fact of life. Its impossible to deny such a thing, it would be like trying to deny the size of the annual military budget. Its a fact of life.
> 
> Do you want America to be famous instead of infamous, or do you want the status quo which only hurts the US? I think the answer should be pretty clear.



America is already infamous and deciding to not intervene in a brutal dictatorship wont change that.


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## makeoutparadise (Jan 24, 2019)

*Nicolás Maduro tells US diplomats to leave Venezuela within 72 hours after Trump recognizes opposition leader as interim president*


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## Lestat Uchiha (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm not surprised about this. it was a matter of time. Maduro is such a shitty leader that everybody in South America that is not a complete idiot knows how much he has fucked up and that he has to go. Last time I was back in Ecuador, everybody was basically using Venezuela as the worst possible outcome the country could be heading towards and while the previous government was closely aligned to Venezuela's policies and government, the current one is doing its best to distance itself even though the current president was part of the previous socialist light government.  It is not surprising the international community is siding with the anti-Maduro leader since Maduro has done absolutely everything in his power to eliminate any ounce of opposition.

I do find it hilarious the reaction of the Cafe at this though. I've been checking posts from Venezuela in here for months and they usually are pretty light in conversation, but the second the US steps in (in this case doing what multiple countries have already done),  everybody looses their shit and immediately calls everything that is going on in Venezuela for the past years as US intervention and we suddenly have new experts of South American politics and feelings whose opinions boil down to 'US bad, therefore US support is bad'.

Look, I know the US has done and is still doing shady shit with governments and that we need to keep a  close eye on it, but Venezuela right now is suffering the consequences of colossally bad management that goes all the way to Chavez. The US did not need to lift a finger to fuck up the country, it did a good job at fucking itself up like Latin American countries have done since literally our Independence wars. Not everything that goes wrong in South America is because of the US and just cause the US supports the new guy it does not mean that he is a terrible despot that will be worse than Maduro. Sure, Maduro is going to use US support of the opposition to try fear monger some of the population into supporting him, but the thing is the US is not alone in their support to the other guy unlike many other times in history.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> America is already infamous and deciding to not intervene in a brutal dictatorship wont change that.



America being infamous is becaused we keep making ourselves infamous. Almost every intervention we have posed, whether it be for "noble" PR reasons or just our own ends secretively, it will always end with a puppet dictatorship or the people there suffering. It will just be on America's hands instead of its own.

You need to get your mind away from the US having any right to be an imperialist nation, whether to "fix" countries or otherwise, especially when it cant even provide basic provisions for its own citizens. That's what we call a broken system.


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## makeoutparadise (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> America is already infamous and deciding to not intervene in a brutal dictatorship wont change that.


But not doing it ever again, probably will.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

Intervening in a brutal dictatorship to help the people sounds nice on paper, but we've seen it play out countless times...the US becomes the one propping up the next dictatorship. Its just favorable to our geopolitical goals. Saying "that's not right" is an understatement.


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## MrPopo (Jan 24, 2019)

This could end up turning into a east vs west situation


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## Weather (Jan 24, 2019)

Venezuelan here.

Just gonna say this, anyone that says that Maduro is a victim and shit.... please die. now.

Right now people here dont care about methods, WE WANT MADURO OUT. NOW.

The level of desperation here is stupidly large, and people outside that support Maduro have no FUCKING idea the shit that normal people go through in this country.

I invite those to come here ito this country through the Airport, god help you get out of here with your stuff complete... or your life.

Reactions: Like 5


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## RavenSupreme (Jan 24, 2019)

Weather said:


> Venezuelan here.
> 
> Just gonna say this, anyone that says that Maduro is a victim and shit.... please die. now.
> 
> ...



Can you give us a little first hand experience on whats going on over there?


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

Weather said:


> Venezuelan here.
> 
> Just gonna say this, anyone that says that Maduro is a victim and shit.... please die. now.
> 
> ...



I want to use this situation, as a Mexican, to apologize for the terrible way our current president is handling the situation. I voted for him, but Im completely against how he is handling this.

Most Mexicans I know, including  some AMLO voters, despise Maduro.

My support.


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## Weather (Jan 24, 2019)

RavenSupreme said:


> Can you give us a little first hand experience on whats going on over there?



I work myself in a tiny store in a lower class neighboor.

The inflation is in such extreme, that prices for basic goods and food can easily rise 5-10% IN A DAY.

The people there are used to gunefire everyday, SOMEONE will get shot, most likely die becuse hospiitals dont have equipment or supplies for treatment, heck most of them CANT EVEN FEED THEIR PATIENTS that are hospitalized.

Babies die in hospitals too easily due to lack of med supplies as well.

The minimal wage right now is the equivalent of like 10$ a month, and thats today, the inflation will destroy it soon enough. Working for a fixed salaray is literally wasting youre time. I myself have an accountant degree in college... right now that thing is useless.

Classrooms are empty and kids are not going to school... lack of food, transportation and the the knowledge that studying is fucking useless completely killed most public education, the ones that do study do so in order to GTFO of the country.

Public transportation is dead, people use those mini trucks called "perreras" in order to maybe go to work, those are stupidly dangerous, recently one of those due to the number of people on it lost control and drove itself of a bridge to the bottom of the river with several dead.

Crime is rampant, and unstopabble, every day dozens to hundred dead, big crime gangs have military level weapons (rifles, grenades) due to most of them being close knitted to the national guard and military out of sheer corruption.

and thats just the surface...


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## RavenSupreme (Jan 24, 2019)

Weather said:


> I work myself in a tiny store in a lower class neighboor.
> 
> The inflation is in such extreme, that prices for basic goods and food can easily rise 5-10% IN A DAY.
> 
> ...



You should get the hell out


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 24, 2019)

Weather said:


> I work myself in a tiny store in a lower class neighboor.
> 
> The inflation is in such extreme, that prices for basic goods and food can easily rise 5-10% IN A DAY.
> 
> ...


I've heard of cannibalism and doctors intentionally misreporting deaths from starvation as if it didn't happen...
Though that was quite a while ago and I wasn't sure how true it was.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

If you want things to change in a country overrun by a brutal rule, just keep in mind that a US intervention in that country aint gonna do that, its just gonna make it worse.

ALso, dont think i dont see you @SuperSaiyaMan12, advocating for neocon tactics


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## ClandestineSchemer (Jan 24, 2019)

RavenSupreme said:


> You should get the hell out



Preferably before Trump builds a wall and makes a minefield.


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> If you want things to change in a country overrun by a brutal rule, just keep in mind that a US intervention in that country aint gonna do that, its just gonna make it worse.
> 
> ALso, dont think i dont see you @SuperSaiyaMan12, advocating for neocon tactics


Only if the US leaves prematurely like I said earlier.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

Dont complain about Russia meddling  If your in support in the US government being about to violate international law

As far as the US goes, this is just a matter of getting in someone receptive to giving us cheaper oil. Geopolitical games as usual


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

You can dislike as much as you like, you know its the truth. I dislike that the overton window has shifted so far. What would have been unthinkable for a lot of the country a decade and a half ago is just normal shit nobody cares about anymore. Its honestly pretty depressing


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## MrGayNight (Jan 24, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> You can dislike as much as you like, you know its the truth. I dislike that the overton window has shifted so far. What would have been unthinkable for a lot of the country a decade and a half ago is just normal shit nobody cares about anymore. Its honestly pretty depressing


What's depressing is how much you want to deflect international criticism of Maduro with "BUT MUH US" and the conspiracy theories you constantly post.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> What's depressing is how much you want to deflect international criticism of Maduro with "BUT MUH US" and the conspiracy theories you constantly post.



I think your mistaking me for someone else. I don't have any love for dictators. What i do have a problem with, is the US military empire being the one with the unilateral power to depose any countries they deem despotic for any purported reason because people like yourself are fine with it now, regardless of the fallout of such a thing.

The fact that you have equated an criticism with US imperialism around the globe with supporting dictators on its face, is appalling and quite honestly, disgusting. Your pretty much the Bush administration in 2003. And that shit doesn't deserve any credence.

Let's be real, if we really cared about dictatorships, saudi arabia would be the first place we'd depose instead of having the government actively stan for MBS. We dont.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

BREAKING news, Juan Guaido is considering to offer a general amnesty to everyone including Maduro if he surrenders power, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an english article yet:



Do you think this is correct? Or Guaido should take a stance that they must be arrested?


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## Drake (Jan 24, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> I think your mistaking me for someone else. I don't have any love for dictators. What i do have a problem with, is the US military empire being the one with the unilateral power to depose any countries they deem despotic for any purported reason because people like yourself are fine with it now, regardless of the fallout of such a thing.



It's telling how you say that the US "deems" Maduro despotic. Maduro _is _a despot. Anyone who doesn't have a hate boner for the US or a vested interest in seeing a "socialist" country succeed can plainly see that. Remember that other countries like Canada and plenty of others have also publicly sided with Maduro's opposition, so this isn't the US "deeming" anyone a despot.

Furthermore, it's ridiculous how you're concerned with a fallout of a theoretical US coup but apparently have no regard for the horrible situation in Venezuela right now. For how long have the people in Venezuela been suffering under Maduro? While you're busy wanking it to your anti-US sentiments, people are literally dying in Venezuela. And guess what? Even if the US doesn't get involved, there will be violence (well, there already is and has been for a while). 

Like you, I don't support having the US go into other countries without a good reason. Personally I hope that Venezuela can solve this on their own as peacefully as possible so that the US has no excuse to go down there. But let's not pretend that a US coup is somehow a bigger issue than the terrible things happening in Venezuela right now. Many people in here have not done enough research on the topic and do not know how bad Maduro has been for the country. He is a bigger problem than any US coup, so don't try to turn the US into the bad guy here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Only if the US leaves prematurely like I said earlier.


The US will ALWAYS leave prematurely. Unless they stay forever, which is impossible.


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## Weather (Jan 24, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> BREAKING news, Juan Guaido is considering to offer a general amnesty to everyone including Maduro if he surrenders power, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an english article yet:
> 
> 
> 
> *Do you think this is correct? Or Guaido should take a stance that they must be arrested?*



Honestly at this point, the people are priority.

I would love to see them all hanged up Mussolini style, but the country needs help first and foremost, and it is urgent.

Now... none of that matters if the military doesnt take the offer, which is the only thing keeping Maduro at power at this point, take that away and is GG.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

Drake said:


> Like you, I don't support having the US go into other countries without a good reason. Personally I hope that Venezuela can solve this on their own as peacefully as possible so that the US has no excuse to go down there. But let's not pretend that a US coup is somehow a bigger issue than the terrible things happening in Venezuela right now. Many people in here have not done enough research on the topic and do not know how bad Maduro has been for the country. He is a bigger problem than any US coup, so don't try to turn the US into the bad guy here.



How do you know that Maduro is a bigger problem than any US coup? Can you see the future? Do know how things play out in the next couple of decades if there was a US coup? 1953 Operations Ajax in Iran, lead to the the Shah dictatorship, which lead to the 1979 Islamic Revolution, resulting in wars and all kinds of problems to this very day and who knows if we even seen the worst of it yet...


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 24, 2019)

"Saddam is worse than any US intervention!"

says shill before minimum 250k iraqi's die in a bloody war


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## MrGayNight (Jan 24, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> BREAKING news, Juan Guaido is considering to offer a general amnesty to everyone including Maduro if he surrenders power, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an english article yet:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think this is correct? Or Guaido should take a stance that they must be arrested?


I don't want him giving amnesty to Maduro, but it's a peaceful way and unlike other dictators he didn't incite a genocide due to various reasons, and so I'd rather see him be let go to maintain peace rather than having to start a civil war just to get rid of the bastard.


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## Drake (Jan 24, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> How do you know that Maduro is a bigger problem than any US coup? Can you see the future? Do know how things play out in the next couple of decades if there was a US coup? 1953 Operations Ajax in Iran, lead to the the Shah dictatorship, which lead to the 1979 Islamic Revolution, resulting in wars and all kinds of problems to this very day and who knows if we even seen the worst of it yet...



Because there is no US coup yet, lol. And keep in mind that you people are the ones who are making the claim in the first place that a theoretical US coup will lead to more problems than continuing under a regime that has proven to be horrible for its citizens, not to mention the potential civil war and decades of conflict that could result from Maduro's failed regime. The burden of proof is on you to prove that a theoretical US coup is worse than all of that.


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> The US will ALWAYS leave prematurely. Unless they stay forever, which is impossible.


No.


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> How do you know that Maduro is a bigger problem than any US coup? Can you see the future? Do know how things play out in the next couple of decades if there was a US coup? 1953 Operations Ajax in Iran, lead to the the Shah dictatorship, which lead to the 1979 Islamic Revolution, resulting in wars and all kinds of problems to this very day and who knows if we even seen the worst of it yet...


The Iranian Revolution wasn't a valid response to that coup (not saying that coup was right).  That revolution was special in that Iran was economically and politically stable prior to.  Anyway that coup didn't take an Ayatollah out of power, so it's not like the actual President mattered so much as the Shah's closeness with the US.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 24, 2019)

Drake said:


> Because there is no US coup yet, lol. And keep in mind that you people are the ones who are making the claim in the first place that a theoretical US coup will lead to more problems than continuing under a regime that has proven to be horrible for its citizens, not to mention the potential civil war and decades of conflict that could result from Maduro's failed regime. The burden of proof is on you to prove that a theoretical US coup is worse than all of that.


That's funny, and ludicrously anti-logic.


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> "Saddam is worse than any US intervention!"
> 
> says shill before minimum 250k iraqi's die in a bloody war


Saddam was an international pariah who couldn't get food for his people and when he could would only get them for Baath acolytes.  Iraqis actually have a chance at a better tomorrow now.  The invasion may have been wrong but getting rid of Saddam was an upside.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

The US doesn't even need a physical presence. It seems only the High Command support Maduro in the armed forces, he has near no social bases, the high command that does support him do so just under the premise of keep the cash flow going and more importantly, not facing charges when Maduro falls.

All the US would need to do is a bombing campaign in Miraflores and other Chavista strongholds and the army would do a coup in no time, if the High Command doesn't do it, the mid level officers would.


----------



## Lestat Uchiha (Jan 24, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> "Saddam is worse than any US intervention!"
> 
> says shill before minimum 250k iraqi's die in a bloody war


While I think the US directly intervening is a bad idea and Iraq was a huge mistake, you can't compare the two situations. Say what you want about Sadam, he kept his country in order. Maduro is too incompetent to even feed his own supporters properly despite having more power than most presidents and his country went to shit without a foreign invasion. The military is the only reason he's still in power.


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## Blue (Jan 24, 2019)

The bloodbath in Iraq happened because Iran shipped in something like 100k foreign jihadis to destabilize the country and mess with the US.

Blame them. You won't, of course, because it's much more fun to blame the US, even though it wasn't us who killed all those people.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiden (Jan 24, 2019)

For anyone interested, a look at how the Venezuelan crisis is rattling neighboring countries:


Venezuela has an ongoing dispute with Guyana over oil recently discovered in the area.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 24, 2019)

Blue said:


> The bloodbath in Iraq happened because Iran shipped in something like 100k foreign jihadis to destabilize the country and mess with the US.
> 
> Blame them. You won't, of course, because it's much more fun to blame the US, even though it wasn't us who killed all those people.



The bloodbath could had been avoided if the US had toppled Saddam when the Iraqi people were actually asking for it:


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## Mider T (Jan 24, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> The bloodbath could had been avoided if the US had toppled Saddam when the Iraqi people were actually asking for it:


This.  Bush 41 didn't go because he thought it would hurt his election chances to push the coalition further than what it was formed for, he lost anyway.


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## Ignition (Jan 25, 2019)

How much did the US sanctions affect the people of Venezuela?  it would be hypocrite of them to talk about moral high if they helped them starve.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 25, 2019)

Ignition said:


> How much did the US sanctions affect the people of Venezuela?  it would be hypocrite of them to talk about moral high if they helped them starve.


The only sanctions they placed on Venezuela was on some venezuelan officials.


----------



## Yamato (Jan 25, 2019)

Decided to see what was going on in Venezuela and watched that first post vid.......... all I can say is.......... his attempts at speaking Spanish made me cringe


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

Can  I get a translator here?


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## Son of Goku (Jan 25, 2019)

Glad to see that Gabbard and Sanders are one the same page about this.


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Can  I get a translator here?


It's Portuguese, and I speak Spanish, but
"The General of the Venezuelan Brigade (? do they only have one or is this some weird port thing?) demands military forces and personnel defeat the communist dictator Nicholas Maduro."


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Can  I get a translator here?



This is Portuguese.

I've never heard of this site before. Looks very fringe. Is there a better source?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> It's Portuguese, and I speak Spanish, but
> "The General of the Venezuelan Brigade (? do they only have one or is this some weird port thing?) demands military forces and personnel defeat the communist dictator Nicholas Maduro."


That sounds about right with the situation as it is now.


Dragon D. Luffy said:


> This is Portuguese.
> 
> I've never heard of this site before. Looks very fringe. Is there a better source?


No idea, I keep my ear to the ground. All I can do when it's in a country so far away.
It's a video, kinda why I wanted to know what it said. I guess I can try for a better source, sec.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 25, 2019)

By the way, translation is that the Venezuelan miltary is preparing to take down Maduro.

Which directly contradicts what the rest of the media said... yesterday.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> By the way, translation is that the Venezuelan miltary is preparing to take down Maduro.
> 
> Which directly contradicts what the rest of the media said... yesterday.


Nintendo Not Looking To Price Cut Switch or Make Successor
I think it's related to this maybe?
"Cabello identified the rebel leader as Sergeant Major Luis Bandres Figueroa."
I have no way of checking Sergeant Major Luis Bandres Figueroa (I don't think I can find him) vs the video.
But it lines up with the dates sort of.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Nintendo Not Looking To Price Cut Switch or Make Successor
> I think it's related to this maybe?
> "Cabello identified the rebel leader as Sergeant Major Luis Bandres Figueroa."
> I have no way of checking Sergeant Major Luis Bandres Figueroa (I don't think I can find him) vs the video.
> But it lines up with the dates sort of.



Seems likely. I guess they attempted an insurrection by posting a video, but failed.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 25, 2019)

It's fine, the first source you posted says a similar thing, but employs a more sensationalist language to make it seem like it's the whole military rebelling, not just 27 guys. So it's not lying just manipulating.


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## Deleted member 222538 (Jan 25, 2019)

Are you pro-interventionist ready to fight if we need soldiers? Truth is stop with all this humanitarian nonsense. The U.S has never ever done interventions due humanitarian reasons. We're there for the oil and thats it.


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Normality said:


> Are you pro-interventionist ready to fight if we need soldiers? Truth is stop with all this humanitarian nonsense. The U.S has never ever done interventions due humanitarian reasons. We're there for the oil and thats it.


US Military here, yes I am. Absolutely. The Venezuelan people deserve a better future and all of us would be better off in a future where they're not starving to death in a socialist dictatorship.

You're not wrong that we don't intervene for humanitarian reasons, which is saddening. 
We never intervened for oil either, however. That was always a lie for simplistic leftist morons. Most of Iraq's oil went to China.


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## Mider T (Jan 25, 2019)

Normality said:


> Are you pro-interventionist ready to fight if we need soldiers? Truth is stop with all this humanitarian nonsense. The U.S has never ever done interventions due humanitarian reasons. We're there for the oil and thats it.


Yeah and we caught alot of shit for that with Rwanda


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## Lestat Uchiha (Jan 25, 2019)

*"A US backed coup in Venezuela is not a solution to the dire issues they face. Trump's efforts to install a far right opposition will only incite violence and further destabilize the region. We must support Mexico, Uruguay & the Vatican's efforts to facilitate a peaceful dialogue."*

Jesus Christ... a 10 second google search shows the new leader of the opposition to be from a center-left party. A slightly longer search shows the party wants stronger democratic institutions, safeguard worker's rights and provide protection to the rights of LGBT people among other very left things to care about. It really pisses me off when people act like idiots or deliberately lie just because Trump does something that is actually right. I love how all Latin countries that are against Maduro were not mentioned.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> We never intervened for oil either, however. That was always a lie for simplistic leftist morons. Most of Iraq's oil went to China.



_Speaking at the Catholic University of America Columbus School of Law in 2008, Chuck Hagel, the former United States Secretary of Defense, defended Greenspan's comments regarding oil as a motivation for the invasion of Iraq: "People say we're not fighting for oil. Of course we are."[119] 
General John Abizaid, CENTCOM commander from 2003 until 2007, said of the Iraq war during a round table discussion at Stanford University in 2008, "Of course it's about oil, it's very much about oil and we can't really deny that."[120][121]

"My friends, I will have an energy policy that we will be talking about, which will eliminate our dependence on oil from the Middle East that will prevent us from having ever to send our young men and women into conflict again in the Middle East," [John] McCain said [in 2008]._​
What ' simplistic leftist morons'.






> *Iraq invasion was about oil*
> 
> Maximising Persian Gulf oil flows to avert a potential global energy crisis motivated Iraq War planners - not WMD or democracy
> 
> ...


https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ar-oil-resources-energy-peak-scarcity-economy


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> What ' simplistic leftist morons'


Indeed.
I honestly have no idea what the 2003 Iraq war was about. Nobody does, you'd have to ask Rumsfeld or Cheney. For Bush, Hillary Clinton, and everyone else who supported it, it was about WMDs. Yes, the ones that didn't exist. But neither they nor the American people knew that.

The fact that almost no Iraqi oil went to the US puts the lie to the simplistic bullshit.

Of course, the 1991 war was more or less about oil, specifically keeping Kuwaiti oil on the market. But that was also a fully justified defensive war, so.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> Indeed.
> I honestly have no idea what the 2003 Iraq war was about. Nobody does, you'd have to ask Rumsfeld or Cheney. For Bush, Hillary Clinton, and everyone else who supported it, it was about WMDs. Yes, the ones that didn't exist. But neither they nor the American people knew that.



You can't be that naive, can you?!



> The fact that almost no Iraqi oil went to the US puts the lie to the simplistic bullshit.




Not really, no. I mean, yeah, the people you argued the US is going in there so they can just literally steal the oil for themselves, may have been proven wrong. But who says that's the only way the US would benefit from Iraq's oil being under control? And by control I don't mean 100% control, but at the least out of the hands of an US adversary and in the hands of an US ally.

I suggest you start reading:




> *Iraq invasion was about oil*
> 
> Maximising Persian Gulf oil flows to avert a potential global energy crisis motivated Iraq War planners - not WMD or democracy
> 
> ...


https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ar-oil-resources-energy-peak-scarcity-economy




> Of course, the 1991 war was more or less about oil, specifically keeping Kuwaiti oil on the market. But that was also a fully justified defensive war, so.



Not quite, no. Saddam was expecting for the US to stand down if he went and invaded Kuwait, after seeing the US ambassador and asking her. She telling him the US wouldn't go to war over Kuwait might have been just her opinion or an misunderstanding, as the apologist like to claim. But I don't think it's a stretch to just call it what it looked like: A trap.


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Did you just post the same guardian article again to rebut?


Does this constitute a rebuttal? Are the ramblings of 'journalists' given more weight than obvious reality?


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## Orochibuto (Jan 25, 2019)

Lestat Uchiha said:


> *"A US backed coup in Venezuela is not a solution to the dire issues they face. Trump's efforts to install a far right opposition will only incite violence and further destabilize the region. We must support Mexico, Uruguay & the Vatican's efforts to facilitate a peaceful dialogue."*



I agree, a peaceful dialogue of when free elections will take place and when Maduro will step down.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 25, 2019)

Article 5. The sovereignty resides intransferiblemente in the town, who exercises it directly in the form foreseen in this Constitution and in the law, and indirectly, by means of the suffrage, by the organs that exert the Public Power.

The organs of the State emanate from popular sovereignty and to them they are subject.
Article 187. Corresponds to the National Assembly:

1. Legislate in matters of national competence and on the functioning of the different branches of National Power.

2. To propose amendments and reforms to the Constitution, in the terms established in this Constitution.

3. Exercise control functions over the Government and the National Public Administration, in the terms enshrined in this Constitution and the law. The evidence obtained in the exercise of this function, will have probative value, under the conditions established by law.

4. Organize and promote citizen participation in matters of its competence.

5. Decree amnesties.

6. Discuss and approve the national budget and any bill concerning the tax regime and public credit.

7. Authorize credits in addition to the budget.

8. To approve the general lines of the economic and social development plan of the Nation, which will be presented by the National Executive during the third quarter of the first year of each constitutional period.

9. Authorize the National Executive to enter into contracts of national interest, in the cases established by law. Authorize contracts of national, state or municipal public interest with States or official foreign entities or companies not domiciled in Venezuela.

10. Give a vote of no confidence to the Executive Vice President or Executive Vice President and to the Ministers. The motion of censure may only be discussed two days after it is presented to the Assembly, which may decide, by three fifths of the deputies or deputies, that the vote of no confidence implies the dismissal of the Executive Vice President or Executive Vice President or the Minister o Minister.

11. Authorize the use of Venezuelan military missions abroad or foreign in the country.

12. Authorize the National Executive to dispose of immovable property of the private domain of the Nation, with the exceptions established by law.

13. Authorize public officials or public officials to accept charges, honors or rewards from foreign governments.

14. Authorize the appointment of the Procurator General of the Republic and of the Chiefs of Permanent Diplomatic Missions.

15. To accord the honors of the National Pantheon to illustrious Venezuelans and Venezuelans, who have rendered eminent services to the Republic, after twenty-five years have elapsed since his death. This decision may be taken on the recommendation of the President of the Republic, of two thirds of the Governors of the State or of the rectors of the National Universities in full.

16. Ensure the interests and autonomy of States.

17. Authorize the departure of the President of the Republic of the national territory when his absence lasts for a period exceeding five consecutive days.

18. Approve by law international treaties or agreements concluded by the National Executive, except for the exceptions enshrined in this Constitution.

19. Dictate its regulations and apply the sanctions established therein.

20. Qualify its members and know of their resignation. The temporary separation of a deputy or deputy can only be agreed by the vote of two thirds of the deputies and deputies present.

21. Organize your internal security service.

22. Agree and execute your budget of expenses, taking into account the financial limitations of the country.

23. Execute the resolutions concerning its operation and administrative organization.

24. All others indicated by this Constitution and the laws.

Article 233. Absolute Faults of the President of the Republic shall be: death, resignation, dismissed decreed by the Supreme Court of Justice, permanent physical or mental incapacity certified by a medical board appointed by the Supreme Court of Justice and with approval of the National Assembly, the abandonment of the office, declared by the National Assembly, as well as the popular revocation of his mandate.

When there is an absolute lack of the President-elect or President-elect before taking office, a new universal, direct and secret election shall be held within the following thirty consecutive days. While the new President is elected and takes office, the President of the National Assembly will be in charge of the Presidency of the Republic.

When there is an absolute lack of the President of the Republic during the first four years of the constitutional period, a new universal and direct election shall be held within the next thirty consecutive days. While the new President is elected and takes office, the Executive Vice President or Executive Vice President will be in charge of the Presidency of the Republic.

Article 333. This Constitution shall not have its validity if it ceases to be observed by act of force or because it is repealed by any other means than that provided for therein.

In such an eventuality, any citizen invested or citizen with or without authority, will have the duty to collaborate in the restoration of its effective validity.

Article 350. The people of Venezuela, faithful to its republican tradition, to its struggle for independence, peace and freedom, will ignore any regime, legislation or authority that contravene democratic values, principles and guarantees or undermines human rights.

----------
Use Google Translate


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## DarkTorrent (Jan 25, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Article 5. The sovereignty resides intransferiblemente in the town, who exercises it directly in the form foreseen in this Constitution and in the law, and indirectly, by means of the suffrage, by the organs that exert the Public Power.
> 
> The organs of the State emanate from popular sovereignty and to them they are subject.
> Article 187. Corresponds to the National Assembly:
> ...



So tl;dr version is Maduro is indeed ignoring the constitution to stay in power


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## MrGayNight (Jan 25, 2019)

DarkTorrent said:


> So tl;dr version is Maduro is indeed ignoring the constitution to stay in power


Yep, and idiots still say the US is being imperalistic.


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## wibisana (Jan 25, 2019)

Nah US invade iraq for its milk.

Mobile milk processing truck to be exact.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> Did you just post the same guardian article again to rebut?
> 
> 
> Does this constitute a rebuttal? Are the ramblings of 'journalists' given more weight than obvious reality?



These are indeed ramblings, but he is nohwere close to being a journalist. So, no. 

But I liked this part:
"So in conclusion I have a question for you: If we were out to steal resources from other countries, why the hell did we invade a nation on the other side of the globe that has less oil than the shitshow just south of us that is Venezuela?"

All in good time. 


EDIT: 

And if you read that article that I posted you wouldn't repeat your one and only argument and I wouldn't have to keep telling that it's not an argument and that should read that article.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 25, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Yep, and idiots still say the US is being imperalistic, further proof that Sanders is a left-wing populist that probably has actual socalist sympathy.



He certainly does have sympathy and not just for actual socialists. But his tweets were mere warnings not to go 'full empire', so I'm not sure what got you so flustered.


EDIT: Apparently you didn't know either, so you deleted that part. Good for you.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 25, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> He certainly does have sympathy and not just for actual socialists. But his tweets were mere warnings not to go 'full empire', so I'm not sure what got you so flustered.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Apparently you didn't know either, so you deleted that part. Good for you.


Yeah I had to reread the tweets.


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## Undertaker (Jan 26, 2019)

Regarding oil. Stop thinking like plebs. Amount of oil doesn't matter. Amount of profit does matter. Of course it correlates to the amount of oil, but it hugely depends on costs.

To profit from oil you don't have to buy it yourself, actually you need to sell it. When I say "profit" I don't mean normal deals with international companies that can distribute it as dividends. When I say "you" I mean a small number of individuals like 10s.

Do the math. You steal oil and sell it getting 100% profit margin. Actually you steal the rights for oil and infrastructure. Then you sell it to big companies. You've made huge amount of money. Whatever happens next in that country is a problem of the buyer. If you think such one-off deal is not worth the trouble - think again.


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## Saishin (Jan 26, 2019)

Germany,France,Spain are ready to recognize Guaido unless Maduro doesn't call for new election in 8 days,meanwhile the Italian government is divided,the M5S doesn't want to recognize him stating that it is better to stay out of it,a main M5S leader said that he doesn't want to see a new Lybia in South America,I mean the foreign intervention in Lybia was a mess and he thinks that the same thing can happen in Venezuela but League and PM Conte would like to back Guaido so at the moment Italy is neutral and watching the evolving situation


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## Jagger (Jan 26, 2019)

Hozukimaru said:


> Breaking diplomatic relations doesn't sound good at all. I hope this ends well for the Venezuelans.
> 
> I'd prefer the EU maintains diplomatic contact with both sides instead and tries to bring them to the negotiating table so that a peaceful solution can be found in this conflict.
> 
> I assume we could also accept a number of fleeing Venezuelans as political refugees. Especially so if things go further south.


This notion is actually ridiculous. The government has been brought to the negotation tables numerous times by the opposition only to outright lie or murk electoral processes.  These people cannot be reasoned with as they wish to hold onto power as long as they can, the only peaceful resolution to all this would be if high-ranked military officers break away from Maduro and force him to resign. That's it.


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## Canute87 (Jan 26, 2019)

Blue said:


> US Military here, yes I am. Absolutely. The Venezuelan people deserve a better future and all of us would be better off in a future where they're not starving to death in a socialist dictatorship.
> 
> You're not wrong that we don't intervene for humanitarian reasons, which is saddening.
> We never intervened for oil either, however. That was always a lie for simplistic leftist morons. Most of Iraq's oil went to China.



They say Venezuela's dependence on oil made them fail.

But why?


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## Magic (Jan 27, 2019)

Russia and China supporting Maduro....


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## Magic (Jan 27, 2019)

> London (CNN)The Bank of England has blocked Nicolas Maduro's officials from withdrawing $1.2 billion worth of gold, Bloomberg reported, dealing a further blow to the embattled Venezuelan President as he tries to salvage his authority.
> 
> According to the report, which cites unnamed people familiar with the matter, the gold is a significant part of the $8 billion in foreign reserves held by the Venezuelan central bank.
> CNN has not been able to independently verify the report and is attempting to get a response from Maduro's officials.
> ...


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## Jagger (Jan 27, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> They say Venezuela's dependence on oil made them fail.
> 
> But why?


It's not necessarily the dependance of it which made us fall. Ever since the '76 nationalization of oil Venezuela has recieved an ridiculous amount of income. Unfortunely, that money was never invested in public property, infrastructure, diversification, or anything that would resemble long term proyects.

Some politicians here and there had good plans put in motion, but were eventually abandoned. The government continued pursuing costly political tactics to garner support, to name an example was the promise to exempt people from their debts to national banks and promising them even more free money. The creation of superfluos positions or 'jobs', which bloated our government and enabled corruption. Our past presidents were not exactly saints (e.g. Carlos Andrés' corruption case which resulted in a social upheaval in 1989). There _is_ a reason why people supported Chávez back then.

Lastly, you can read this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#4ab2c76e7399


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## Canute87 (Jan 27, 2019)

Jagger said:


> It's not necessarily the dependance of it which made us fall. Ever since the '76 nationalization of oil Venezuela has recieved an ridiculous amount of income. Unfortunely, that money was never invested in public property, infrastructure, diversification, or anything that would resemble long term proyects.
> 
> Some politicians here and there had good plans put in motion, but were eventually abandoned. The government continued pursuing costly political tactics to garner support, to name an example was the promise to exempt people from their debts to national banks and promising them even more free money. The creation of superfluos positions or 'jobs', which bloated our government and enabled corruption. Our past presidents were not exactly saints (e.g. Carlos Andrés' corruption case which resulted in a social upheaval in 1989). There _is_ a reason why people supported Chávez back then.
> 
> Lastly, you can read this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#4ab2c76e7399



Kay gonna check that article.


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## Canute87 (Jan 27, 2019)

RemChu said:


> Russia and China supporting Maduro....



Is it possible for Russia and China and US to support Venezuela and their revelant factions without sending a single soldier?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 27, 2019)

Jagger said:


> to name an example was the promise to exempt people from their debts to national banks and promising them even more free money.


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## Magic (Jan 27, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> Is it possible for Russia and China and US to support Venezuela and their revelant factions without sending a single soldier?



I don't know, I would think. Situation is starting to give cold war / proxy war vibes.


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## Canute87 (Jan 27, 2019)

RemChu said:


> I don't know, I would think. Situation is starting to give cold war / proxy war vibes.


If it was a matter of funding

It would be funny if US had to borrow money from china to fund Guaido.

If it's a matter of firepower  US can do so discretely.  I wonder if their them pulling their soliders out of syria and those places had some ulterior motive


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## MrGayNight (Jan 27, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> Is it possible for Russia and China and US to support Venezuela and their revelant factions without sending a single soldier?


Well yeah, they can just, not try to turn it into a battlefield and allow the people to handle it.


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## LazyWaka (Jan 27, 2019)

I think there's actually a lot of temptation for everyone to send in the troops.

Yeah if the US sent in troops to try and enforce their side America looks like a world policing douche in front everyone watching again. But at the same time if, say, China or Russia sends theirs in first than it effectively becomes impossible for anyone else to get involved and help without causing a massive conflict.

So their is a lot of incentive to do so in spite of global criticism for both sides.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 27, 2019)

Jagger said:


> It's not necessarily the dependance of it which made us fall. Ever since the '76 nationalization of oil Venezuela has recieved an ridiculous amount of income. Unfortunely, that money was never invested in public property, infrastructure, diversification, or anything that would resemble long term proyects.
> 
> Some politicians here and there had good plans put in motion, but were eventually abandoned. The government continued pursuing costly political tactics to garner support, to name an example was the promise to exempt people from their debts to national banks and promising them even more free money. The creation of superfluos positions or 'jobs', which bloated our government and enabled corruption. Our past presidents were not exactly saints (e.g. Carlos Andrés' corruption case which resulted in a social upheaval in 1989). There _is_ a reason why people supported Chávez back then.
> 
> Lastly, you can read this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#4ab2c76e7399


Not only that, Petro states are dependent on the market. If gas and oil prices are high, Petro States thrive since they're getting all that money. Its why Venezuela was actually doing really well during the Bush Administration, when gas prices were reaching 4 and 5 dollars a gallon. However...when gas prices fell, and under Obama the US became oil self-sufficient, states like Venezuela lost their massive source of income. Not only that, with the growing Green energy sources (solar, wind, geothermal, etc.) oil has became far less important, much like coal.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 27, 2019)

LazyWaka said:


> I think there's actually a lot of temptation for everyone to send in the troops.
> 
> Yeah if the US sent in troops to try and enforce their side America looks like a world policing douche in front everyone watching again. But at the same time if, say, China or Russia sends theirs in first than it effectively becomes impossible for anyone else to get involved and help without causing a massive conflict.
> 
> So their is a lot of incentive to do so in spite of global criticism for both sides.


...can Russia and China even _send_ troops that far away from their bases? Neither of them have an actual blue water navy, nor do they have ANY experience sending troops that far from home.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 27, 2019)

LazyWaka said:


> Yeah if the US sent in troops to try and enforce their side America looks like a world policing douche in front everyone watching again. But at the same time if, say, China or Russia sends theirs in first than it effectively becomes impossible for anyone else to get involved and help without causing a massive conflict.


Tbh I think it would be better, if the US refrained from the usual, and instead of BOMBING everything that exists, send only troops,fighters and etc. but no bombs!


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## LazyWaka (Jan 27, 2019)

Yeah bomb dropping would be the worst thing to do right now.


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## Canute87 (Jan 27, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...can Russia and China even _send_ troops that far away from their bases? Neither of them have an actual blue water navy, nor do they have ANY experience sending troops that far from home.



Chinese are everywhere.

Don't be surprised when Mr. Chin looks up the wholesale cause he got a war to fight.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 27, 2019)

Canute87 said:


> Chinese are everywhere.
> 
> Don't be surprised when Mr. Chin looks up the wholesale cause he got a war to fight.


No, they aren't. China's navy doesn't have any experience with sending troops to LOCAL areas in the Sea of China or around its sphere of influence. ALL the way across the pacific is far outside their Navy's reach. Same with Russia.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 27, 2019)

This is probably the most presidential thing Trump has done.


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## Drake (Jan 27, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...can Russia and China even _send_ troops that far away from their bases? Neither of them have an actual blue water navy, nor do they have ANY experience sending troops that far from home.



Russia has sent military advisers and officers pretty much across the globe since the Cold War, but yeah it would be difficult to send an actual army that far. The most they could do is fund and supply Maduro's side.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 27, 2019)

Drake said:


> Russia has sent military advisers and officers pretty much across the globe since the Cold War, but yeah it would be difficult to send an actual army that far. The most they could do is fund and supply Maduro's side.


I don't think Russia's navy (or China's) has even dedicated troop transports, much less that can cross the Pacific or Atlantic without getting obliterated by American Naval power.


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## Blue (Jan 29, 2019)




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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 29, 2019)

When even Mr. Current Year accurately reports how people are starving and gets very indignant about it, there's really no excuse for people like this.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 29, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## makeoutparadise (Jan 29, 2019)

So...civil war....yeah civil war


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## Clowe (Jan 29, 2019)

Civil War requires both sides to be armed... That isn't the case here.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 29, 2019)

Use google translate. Maduro seems to be entering the "beat up everyone that doesn't bow to me" stage of his communist dictatorship.


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## Mider T (Jan 29, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Use google translate. Maduro seems to be entering the "beat up everyone that doesn't bow to me" stage of his communist dictatorship.


As expected of a bus driver.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 30, 2019)




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## MrGayNight (Jan 30, 2019)

Didn't watch the video, give me a TL;DW.
Is it because of oil sanctions? Or the US trying to take back Citgo that the venezuelan government stole?


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## Mider T (Jan 30, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Didn't watch the video


Nobody did, its Ron Paul.


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## Blue (Jan 30, 2019)

>2k18
>Still pushing the oil bullshit

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-oil-exporter-for-the-first-time-in-75-years

So we're going to invade a country to steal their oil when we have more than we need ourselves?

Find a new talking point for your Anti-US shilling.


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## Saishin (Jan 30, 2019)

*VENEZUELAN MILITARY 'READY TO DIE' IN FIGHT AGAINST U.S. IMPERIALISM, DEFENSE MINISTER WARNS*

Venezuela’s minister of defense has vowed that his troops are ready to die in the battle for control of their beleaguered South American nation, and urged the country’s soldiers to stand up to imperialism and fight for independence.

Vladimir Padrino made the remarks while  on Monday at a show of military strength at an army base in Caracas. Dressed in full battle uniform with a rifle slung over his shoulder, Padrino denounced the movement to depose President Nicolás Maduro and urged his troops to stand firm in the face of foreign interference.

Padrino is supporting Maduro, who has served as president since replacing revolutionary leader Hugo Chávez in 2013, amid the president's power struggle with opposition leader Juan Guaidó, who declared himself interim president last week. Guaidó is leader of the country's parliament and has said he is constitutionally bound to take power if there is no legitimate president in the country.

Multiple nations, led by  in the United States, have officially recognized Guaidó as the country’s leader. They include the United Kingdom, Canada and most of Venezuela's neighbors. Though Maduro won a presidential election in 2018, the domestic opposition and international critics have declared the result illegitimate, citing voter fraud, opposition repression and other irregularities.

The country’s strong military has thus far remained loyal to Maduro, who has used his forces to suppress dissent and  his embattled regime.

Guaidó has attempted to  and offered a legal amnesty for any troops who defect to his parallel administration. But his efforts appear to have failed so far with Padrino, who has served as defense minister since 2014. 

“It is time for revolutionary, Bolivarian, patriotic activism,” Padrino told assembled troops in footage  by the official Defense Ministry account and retweeted by the minister himself. “This is the activism that today empowers us in this new phase of defending our homeland. We are not going to hand it over! We are ready to die for it!”

The minister also praised the military establishment for standing up against “the of American imperialism.” Maduro has argued that U.S. interference in Venezuela constitutes an attempted coup.

“We would be unworthy of wearing this uniform and these patriotic symbols, if we did not face in this difficult moment of certain threat against the fatherland,” Padrino added. “In the face of any aggression, of any nature and intensity, we will defend Venezuela, as it belongs to us.”

Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and National Security Adviser John Bolton announced on Monday  against Venezuela’s state-owned oil company. In a statement to reporters, the two men accused the PDVSA of corruption, embezzlement and looting the nation’s assets. The sanctions are an attempt to deprive Maduro's government of cash and undermine his support from the military.

Maduro has repeatedly accused the U.S. of leading an “economic war” against his country. Venezuela has been crippled by low oil prices, hyperinflation, unemployment and chronic food and medicine shortages.

Last week, Maduro’s government suffered its first senior military defection. The country’s top military attaché to the U.S.—Colonel José Luis Silva—came out in support of Guaidó. Announcing his decision in a video posted to social media, Silva urged his colleagues, “Please, brothers, don’t attack our people. The state gave us arms to protect our country, not to touch our equals.”


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## Blue (Jan 30, 2019)

Saishin said:


> *VENEZUELAN MILITARY 'READY TO DIE' IN FIGHT AGAINST U.S. IMPERIALISM, DEFENSE MINISTER WARNS*


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## Mofo (Jan 30, 2019)

_Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant._

-- Tacitus


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## Blue (Jan 30, 2019)

Primum, minima de malis_._
_
-_Cicero


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 30, 2019)

I don't want to die going into war against Venezuela.

- Mr. Black Leg


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## Mofo (Jan 30, 2019)

Democracy ain't going to export itself, fam.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 30, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Didn't watch the video, give me a TL;DW.
> Is it because of oil sanctions? Or the US trying to take back Citgo that the venezuelan government stole?


Bolton says that it would be great for the US if it went in there to take care of the oil.

Bolton:
"It would make a big difference for the United States, economically, if we could have American oil companies, really, invest in and produce the oil capabilities in Venezuela. It'd be good for the people of Venezuela, it'd be good for the people of the United States. We both have a lot at stake here, making this come out the right way."


I mean it really should be a no-brainer. But apparently some people still need somewhat of a brain to get it.





_______________________________


On Thursday, John Bolton told Fox Business host Trish Regan the administration had the goal of putting U.S. companies in charge of Venezuela's oil production. Because freedom!
By 
 ago
Views:
14176

VIDEO


It's 2003 all over again, right down to the mustachioed John Bolton, who freely admitted to Fox Business host Trish Regan on Thursday night that the ultimate goal of United States activity in Venezuela is to take over their oil production -- or, in simpler terms, take their oil.
Wouldn't Koch Industries love that? After all, they've sued Venezuela for millions -- basically calling their loans -- in order to destabilize their economy and punish President Maduro, who is a terribly brutal leader, but nevertheless elected by the people in an election which has been certified.
Mike Pence, a wholly-sponsored Koch project, was instrumental in injecting the United States into Venezuelan political unrest, according to a _Wall Street Journal_ .

The night before Juan Guaidó declared himself interim president of Venezuela, the opposition leader received a phone call from Vice President Mike Pence.
*Mr. Pence pledged that the U.S. would back Mr. Guaidó if he seized the reins of government from Nicolás Maduro by invoking a clause in the South American country’s constitution, a senior administration official said.*
That late-night call set in motion a plan that had been developed in secret over the preceding several weeks, accompanied by talks between U.S. officials, allies, lawmakers and key Venezuelan opposition figures, including Mr. Guaidó himself.
It culminated in the 35-year-old Mr. Guaidó’s declaration Wednesday that Mr. Maduro’s government was illegitimate and that Mr. Guaidó, president of the country’s National Assembly, was assuming power in accordance with the country’s constitution.
Almost instantly, just as Mr. Pence had promised, President Trump issued a statement recognizing Mr. Guaidó as the country’s rightful leader. Soon after came similar pronouncements from Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Peru and others.​Friday, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo announced the appointment of the execrable Elliott Abrams to be the United States liason with Venezuela. Yes, the very same Elliott Abrams who was pardoned for his role in the Iran-Contra scandal during the Reagan administration and the Bush-era cheerleader for the Iraq War. Read all about him .
All of that is background for John Bolton's shameless appearance on Fox Business Thursday night, where he unabashedly admitted the United States is meddling for a specific purpose.

"Venezuela is one of the three countries i call the Troika of Tyranny," Bolton told Trish Regan. "*It would make a difference if we could have American companies produce the oil in Venezuela*. It would be good for Venezuela and the people of the United States."
Why would it be good for us and them, you ask? FREEDOM. Sweet freedom from the tyranny of socialism, he explains.
Venezuela is complex. That goes without saying. Nicolas Maduro was elected in what can only be described as a sham election, he has been a brutal leader to the Venezuelan people, the economy is trashed (thanks in part to the Kochs and other greedy oil barons), and the people are suffering. All of those things are true, but that does not in any way excuse our intervention in their politics nor does it mean we have some God-ordained right to de-nationalize their oil and take their profits away from the people of that country.
It is disgusting to see history repeating itself this way. Disgusting.


_________________________________________


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 30, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I don't want to die going into war against Venezuela.
> 
> - Mr. Black Leg



You guys still have conscription ?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 30, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> You guys still have conscription ?



Yeah ... I'm on the Military Reserve ...


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 30, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yeah ... I'm on the Military Reserve ...



That uh, that sucks.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 30, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> That uh, that sucks.



You think ?


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## Saishin (Jan 30, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yeah ... I'm on the Military Reserve ...


You're from Brazil right?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 30, 2019)

Saishin said:


> You're from Brazil right?



Yes. Unfortunately.


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## Saishin (Jan 30, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yes. Unfortunately.


Unfortunately? oh yeah Bolsonaro


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## MrGayNight (Jan 30, 2019)

There's rumors that Maduro is giving away gold to Russia in exchange for diplomatic support or something. If confirmed ...


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## Blue (Jan 30, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> There's rumors that Maduro is giving away gold to Russia in exchange for political support or something. If confirmed ...


1. Russia isn't a real power in the world. They don't have the ability to offer support.
2. Even if they did, they wouldn't. Maduro is obviously done. They're supporting him right now to annoy the US, but they know they're gonna be dealing with Guaidó sooner or later and won't poison the well for no gain.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 30, 2019)

Blue said:


> Russia isn't a real power in the world. They don't have the ability to offer support.


Sorry, I meant diplomatic support, he's giving away his country's resources if they back his government. I think Turkey is also in on this.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 30, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> There's rumors that Maduro is giving away gold to Russia in exchange for political support or something. If confirmed ...



Or maybe it's for safe keeping?


*Bank of England blocks Maduro's $1.2B gold withdrawal - report*

January 26, 2019


*Bank of England urged to give Juan Guaidó Venezuela's gold*
Mon 28 Jan 2019 19.02 GMT
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rve-interim-leader-rather-than-nicolas-maduro


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## Blue (Jan 30, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Sorry, I meant diplomatic support, he's giving away his country's resources if they back his government. I think Turkey is also in on this.


They're already doing that, however.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 30, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Or maybe it's for safe keeping?
> 
> 
> *Bank of England blocks Maduro's $1.2B gold withdrawal - report*
> ...


Doubt.

@Blue Let me guess, Maduro is giving away their oil?


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 30, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> *Bank of England urged to give Juan Guaidó Venezuela's gold*
> Mon 28 Jan 2019 19.02 GMT
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rve-interim-leader-rather-than-nicolas-maduro



Even if they did Maduro would accuse him of stealing it and would send the army to re-collect.

And if it would be stores abroad they'd cut internet across Venezuela so he couldn't access it while either trying to hack into whatever accounts he could use to manage it or just beat the password out of him so they could transfer it to their accounts via an intermediary.


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## Blue (Jan 30, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Doubt.
> 
> @Blue Let me guess, Maduro is giving away their oil?


He would have to have oil to give away. Obviously Venezuela has enormous oil reserves, but their production has plummeted to nothing because of oil industry workers and executives fleeing the country and being replaced by military strongmen with no clue how to extract oil.

Even if the oil rigs could be restaffed with competent people, it would be a year or more before Venezuela is producing considerable oil again.

This, by the way, is exhibit #3,669,391 on why seizing the means of production earns you nothing but ashes in your mouth.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 30, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Even if they did Maduro would accuse him of stealing it and would send the army to re-collect.
> 
> And if it would be stores abroad they'd cut internet across Venezuela so he couldn't access it while either trying to hack into whatever accounts he could use to manage it or just beat the password out of him so they could transfer it to their accounts via an intermediary.



At which point the US has casus belli.

Maduro cant use force on Guaido or the National Assembly. That would be suicidal.

Maybe he could as you said, hack the accounts. But sending the army to actually arrest him or torture the passwords out of him? No way.


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## Mider T (Jan 30, 2019)

Blue said:


> >2k18
> >Still pushing the oil bullshit
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-oil-exporter-for-the-first-time-in-75-years
> ...


Its 2019.


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 30, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> At which point the US has casus belli.
> 
> Maduro cant use force on Guaido or the National Assembly. That would be suicidal.
> 
> Maybe he could as you said, hack the accounts. But sending the army to actually arrest him or torture the passwords out of him? No way.



I mean if he just "disappears" and the Goverment pretends ignorance, then what can the US do without concrete proof ?


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## Orochibuto (Jan 30, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> I mean if he just "disappears" and the Goverment pretends ignorance, then what can the US do without concrete proof ?



No proof is needed, no one would buy it. The proof would be Maduro gaining those assets. The government is so thoroughly discredited that they just wont be believed.

This is one of the reasons even the calls for "talks" from Maduro are rejected, he has the same credibility as Hitler in WW2.


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 30, 2019)

Orochibuto said:


> No proof is needed, no one would buy it. The proof would be Maduro gaining those assets. The government is so thoroughly discredited that they just wont be believed.
> 
> This is one of the reasons even the calls for "talks" from Maduro are rejected, he has the same credibility as Hitler in WW2.



I mean if they use say Russian help to use these assets covertly via a third party it might be hard to prove, depends on if these would be physically present in the country or not.


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## Orochibuto (Jan 30, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> I mean if they use say Russian help to use these assets covertly via a third party it might be hard to prove, depends on if these would be physically present in the country or not.



It doesn't matter if there is proof, if Guaido disappears and the accounts paid to Guaido are suddenly empited, everyone is going to believe Maduro did this and act accordingly.


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## Saishin (Jan 31, 2019)

*European Parliament recognizes Venezuela's Juan Guaido*

The parliament urged the European Union to recognize opposition leader Juan Guaido as acting president. The EU has so far said it will take "further actions" if there's no fresh election.

The European Parliament on Thursday voted to recognize Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido as the country's acting president and encouraged the European Union to do the same.

The motion urged the EU to accept Guaido as "the only legitimate interim president of the country until new free, transparent and credible presidential elections can be called in order to restore democracy."

It does not change EU policy, but adds to calls for the EU executive and its member states to join the United States, Canada and Brazil in backing Guaido.

The EU has not officially backed Guaido, but has said it would recognize him as interim president if Venzuela did not hold fresh presidential elections.

Germany, Spain and France were stronger in their response, giving Venezuela eight days to hold new elections before they back Guaido.

Guaido declared himself interim president last week, sparking a political crisis in Venezuela.

It has seen the world become divided into two sides — one that backs Guaido and one that supports President Nicolas Maduro.

13 of the 14 Lima group countries, Canada, Israel and Australia have all backed Guaido, while Cuba, Bolivia, Mexico, Russia, Turkey and China support Maduro.

Thousands of Venezuelans took to streets across the country on Wednesday in support of Guaido and demanded Maduro step down.

https://www.dw.com/en/european-parliament-recognizes-venezuelas-juan-guaido/a-47309037


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## MrGayNight (Jan 31, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> You think ?


I feel sorry for Venezuelans even more now, there's rumors that teenagers are being forced to enlist in the army.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 31, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yeah ... I'm on the Military Reserve ...



But did you actually do Tiro de Guerra?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 31, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> But did you actually do Tiro de Guerra?



Unfortunately, yes.

Edit: Eu morei no interior por um tempo, e tive o azar de fazer meu alistamento (E o processo todo) quando tava lá, na época eu não tava na faculdade. Tomei no cu bonito.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 31, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Unfortunately, yes.



Sorry for you, bro. 

I escaped through the miracle of bronchitis.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 31, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> Sorry for you, bro.
> 
> I escaped through the miracle of bronchitis.



I actually _do_ have a bad case of chronic Rhinitis and both of my ankles are fucked up to the point of many orthopedists saying that I should only ever practice mild walks to lose weight and nothing else anymore (I fucked both of them playing football, I'm a tall guy and fat, so you imagine how my tendons and ligaments are all fucked up, even though I just played amateur).

So, I'm relying on the fact that I have two fucked up ankles to go to war. BONE SPURS ANYONE ?


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Jan 31, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I actually _do_ have a bad case of chronic Rhinitis and both of my ankles are fucked up to the point of many orthopedists saying that I should only ever practice mild walks to lose weight and nothing else anymore (I fucked both of them playing football, I'm a tall guy and fat, so you imagine how my tendons and ligaments are all fucked up, even though I just played amateur).
> 
> So, I'm relying on the fact that I have two fucked up ankles to go to war. BONE SPURS ANYONE ?



Make an anti-Bolsonaro protest, and when the police are coming to get you, flee the country and try to get a political asylum.

Could work.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 31, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> Make an anti-Bolsonaro protest, and when the police are coming to get you, flee the country and try to get a political asylum.
> 
> Could work.





You can't die in a war if you die first with the police bashing your skull open.


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## San Juan Wolf (Jan 31, 2019)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> You can't die in a war if you die first with the police bashing your skull open.



Not if you make sure to be all the way in the back.

Last one to arrive first one to leave.


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## Trojan (Jan 31, 2019)

Blue said:


> So we're going to invade a country to steal their oil when we have more than we need ourselves?


Yes. The American regime is atrocious


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

Bolton in all his bean spilling glory:





MrGayNight said:


> The only sanctions they placed on Venezuela was on some venezuelan officials.


That's not actually true, is it?


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

Ignition said:


> How much did the US sanctions affect the people of Venezuela?  it would be hypocrite of them to talk about moral high if they helped them starve.




___________________

*Venezuela crisis: Former UN rapporteur says US sanctions are killing citizens*

*‘Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns’*


Michael Selby-Green
5 days ago

The Independent US


The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told _The Independent_ the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.

Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.

The comments come amid worsening tensions in the country after the US and UK have backed Juan Guaido, who appointed himself “interim president” of Venezuela as hundreds of thousands marched to support him. European leaders are calling for “free and fair” elections. Russia and Turkey remain Nicolas Maduro’s key supporters.

Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to _The Independent_ following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.

“Sanctions kill,” he told _The Independent_, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”.

*On his fact-finding mission to the country in late 2017, he found internal overdependence on oil, poor governance and corruption had hit the Venezuelan economy hard, but said “economic warfare” practised by the US, EU and Canada are significant factors in the economic crisis.*

In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.

*The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, *Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.

“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.

“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.

The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme.

US sanctions prohibit dealing in currencies issued by the Venezuelan government. They also target individuals, and stop US-based companies or people from buying and selling new debt issued by PDVSA or the government.

The US has previously defended its sanctions on Venezuela, with a senior US official saying in 2018: “The fact is that the greatest sanction on Venezuelan oil and oil production is called Nicolas Maduro, and PDVSA’s inefficiencies,” referring to the state-run oil body, Petroleos de Venezuela, SA.

Mr De Zayas’s findings are based on his late-2017 mission to the country and interviews with 12 Venezuelan government minsters, opposition politicians, 35 NGOs working in the country, academics, church officials, activists, chambers of commerce and regional UN agencies.

The US imposed new sanctions against Venezuela on 9 March 2015, when President Barack Obama issued  declaring the country a threat to national security.

The sanctions have since intensified under Donald Trump, who has also  and .
 

 The situation in Venezuela could easily spiral into civil war

After backing Mr Guaido on 23 January, , “I will continue to use the full weight of United States economic and diplomatic power to press for the restoration of Venezuelan democracy.”

Venezuela has also described US sanctions as illegal. In 2018, foreign minister Jorge Arreaza said they were “madness, barbaric, and in absolute contradiction to international law”.

 and  per cent, while the civilian death toll is unknown.

Despite being the first UN official to visit and report from Venezuela in 21 years, Mr de Zayas said his research into the causes of the country’s economic crisis has so far largely been ignored by the UN and the media, and caused little debate within the Human Rights Council.

He believes his report has been ignored because it goes against the popular narrative that Venezuela needs regime change.

“When I come and I say the emigration is partly attributable to the economic war waged against Venezuela and is partly attributable to the sanctions, people don’t like to hear that. They just want the simple narrative that socialism failed and it failed the Venezuelan people,” Mr de Zayas told _The Independent.
_
“When I came back [the UN and media were] not interested. Because I am not singing the song I’m supposed to sing so I don’t exist … And my report, as I said, was formally presented but there has been no debate on the report. It has been filed away.”



 
Trump’s intervention in Venezuela is wholly undemocratic
The then UN high commissioner, Zeid Raad Al Hussein, reportedly refused to meet Mr de Zayas after the visit, and the Venezuela desk of the UN Human Rights Council also declined to help with his work after his return despite being obliged to do so, Mr de Zayas claimed.

He told _The Independent_ the office gave him the “cold shoulder” because they were worried his report, which is now published, would be too independent.

“They are only interested in a rapporteur who is going to … do grandstanding, is going to condemn the government and ask for regime change. And I went there to listen. I went there to find out what’s actually going on,” Mr de Zayas said.

A spokesperson for the office of the UN high commissioner said: “The 56 Special Procedures – of which Alfred de Zayas was one – are independent, as well as very numerous, and so it is not a practice for the high commissioner to meet with them individually to discuss their reports. It would be physically impossible for him … to do so.”

The spokesperson said the actions of the Venezuela desk are more “complicated” then Mr de Zayas described, adding, “calling for regime change is not our business”.
*
Ivan Briscoe, Latin America and Caribbean programme director for Crisis Group, an international NGO, told The Independent that Venezuela is a polarising subject, dividing those who support the socialist government and those who want to see a more US-aligned business friendly regime replace it.*

Briscoe is critical of Mr de Zayas’s report because it highlights US economic warfare but in his view neglects to mention the impact of a difficult business environment in the country which he believes is a symptom of “Chavismo” and the socialist governments’ failures.

He said even if the sanctions are lifted, the country could not recover under current government policies, adding that Mr de Zayas’s report is the result of a “lawyer trying to understand the nature of supply and demand, and it didn’t quite work”.

*But, speaking before the news of Guaido’s coup attempt, Briscoe acknowledged rising tensions and the likely presence of US personnel operating covertly in the country.*

*“Yes, something is going on. Yes there is talk of a military intervention. Which would be a very bad idea.* But the fact of the matter is that the plan has been conceived in the context of the humanitarian crisis,” he said.

Eugenia Russian, president of FUNDALATIN, one of the oldest human rights NGOs in Venezuela, founded in 1978 before the Chavez and Maduro governments and with special consultative status at the UN, spoke to _The Independent_ on the significance of the sanctions.

“In contact with the popular communities, we consider that one of the fundamental causes of the economic crisis in the country is the effect that the unilateral coercive sanctions that are applied in the economy, especially by the government of the United States,” Ms Russian said.

She said there may also be causes from internal errors, but said probably few countries in the world have suffered an “economic siege” like the one Venezuelans are living under.

The sanctions are part of a US effort to overthrow the Venezuelan government and instal a more business friendly regime, , Mr de Zayas said.

“I’ve seen that happen in the Human Rights Council, how the United States twists arms and convinces countries to vote the way they want them to vote, or there will be economic consequences, and these things are not reflected in the press,” the former high-ranking UN official told _The Independent.
_
“What’s at stake is the enormous, enormous natural resources of Venezuela. And I sense that if Venezuela had no natural resources no one would give a damn about Chavez or Maduro or anybody else there,” Mr de Zayas added.

Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the world and an abundance of other natural resources including gold, bauxite and . But under the Maduro government they’re not easily accessible to US and transnational corporations.

*US oil companies had large investments in Venezuela in the early 20th century but were locked out after Venezuelans voted to nationalise the industry in 1973.*

“If you crush this government and you bring in a neoliberal government that is going to privatise everything and is going to sell out, a lot of transitional corporations stand to gain enormous profits and the United States is driven by the transnational corporations,” the former UN special rapporteur told _The Independent.
_
“The business of the United States is business. And that’s what the United States is interested in. And they can’t [currently] do business with Venezuela.”

In his report, Mr de Zayas expressed concern that those calling the situation a “humanitarian crisis” are trying to justify regime change and that human rights are being “weaponised” to discredit the government and make violent overthrow more “palatable”.

The Maduro government is responsible for “the worst human rights crisis in the country’s history,” according to Amnesty.

“Venezuela is going through one of the worst human rights crises in its history. The list of crimes under international law against the population is growing,” Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty’s Americas director, said in late 2018.

“It is alarming that, instead of applying efficient public policies to protect people and reduce levels of insecurity, the Venezuelan authorities are using the language of war to try to legitimise the use of excessive force by police and military officials and, in many cases, the use of lethal force with intent to kill.”

Mr De Zayas recommended dialogue between the international community and Venezuelans to make their government better, rather than squeezing the country with sanctions and backing coups. He proposed that Venezuela’s abundant natural wealth can help it recover once sanctions are lifted.

*“The key to the solution of the crisis is dialogue and mediation… There is nothing more undemocratic than a coup d’état and nothing more corrosive to the rule of law and to international stability when foreign governments meddle in the internal affairs of other states,”* he told _The Independent.
_
“Only the Venezuelans have a right to decide, not the United States, not the United Kingdom … We do not want a repetition of the  … What is urgent is to help the Venezuelan people through international solidarity – genuine humanitarian aid and a lifting of the financial blockade so that Venezuela can buy and sell like any other country in the world – the problems can be solved with good faith and common sense.”

Mr De Zayas has since signed an open letter with Noam Chomsky and over 70 other academics and experts, condemning the US-backed coup attempt against the Venezuelan government.

He called the recent developments “totally surreal”.

Ms Russian, speaking about the economic crisis, said: “It is insufficient to see only the errors or deficiencies that the government may have, without seeing the environment of international pressure under which this population lives.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ctions-united-nations-oil-pdvsa-a8748201.html​

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

*Juan Guaidó is the product of a decade-long project overseen by Washington’s elite regime change trainers. While posing as a champion of democracy, he has spent years at the forefront of a violent campaign of destabilization.*

*By Dan Cohen and Max Blumenthal*

Before the fateful day of January 22, fewer than one in five Venezuelans had heard of Juan Guaidó. Only a few months ago, the 35-year-old was an obscure character in a politically marginal far-right group closely associated with gruesome acts of street violence. Even in his own party, Guaidó had been a mid-level figure in the opposition-dominated National Assembly, which is now held under contempt according to Venezuela’s constitution.

But after a single phone call from from US Vice President Mike Pence, Guaidó proclaimed himself president of Venezuela. Anointed as the leader of his country by Washington, a previously unknown political bottom-dweller was vaulted onto the international stage as the US-selected leader of the nation with the world’s largest oil reserves.

Echoing the Washington consensus, the New York Times editorial board hailed Guaidó as a “credible rival” to Maduro with a “refreshing style and vision of taking the country forward.” The Bloomberg News editorial board applauded him for seeking “restoration of democracy” and the Wall Street Journal declared him “a new democratic leader.” Meanwhile, Canada, numerous European nations, Israel, and the bloc of right-wing Latin American governments known as the Lima Group recognized Guaidó as the legitimate leader of Venezuela.

While Guaidó seemed to have materialized out of nowhere, he was, in fact, the product of more than a decade of assiduous grooming by the US government’s elite regime change factories. Alongside a cadre of right-wing student activists, Guaidó was cultivated to undermine Venezuela’s socialist-oriented government, destabilize the country, and one day seize power. Though he has been a minor figure in Venezuelan politics, he had spent years quietly demonstrated his worthiness in Washington’s halls of power.

“Juan Guaidó is a character that has been created for this circumstance,” Marco Teruggi, an Argentinian sociologist and leading chronicler of Venezuelan politics, told The Grayzone. “It’s the logic of a laboratory – Guaidó is like a mixture of several elements that create a character who, in all honesty, oscillates between laughable and worrying.”

Diego Sequera, a Venezuelan journalist and writer for the investigative outlet Misión Verdad, agreed: “Guaidó is more popular outside Venezuela than inside, especially in the elite Ivy League and Washington circles,” Sequera remarked to The Grayzone, “He’s a known character there, is predictably right-wing, and is considered loyal to the program.”

While Guaidó is today sold as the face of democratic restoration, he spent his career in the most violent faction of Venezuela’s most radical opposition party, positioning himself at the forefront of one destabilization campaign after another. His party has been widely discredited inside Venezuela, and is held partly responsible for fragmenting a badly weakened opposition.
“‘These radical leaders have no more than 20 percent in opinion polls,” wrote Luis Vicente León, Venezuela’s leading pollster. According to León, Guaidó’s party remains isolated because the majority of the population “does not want war. ‘What they want is a solution.’”

But this is precisely why Guaidó was selected by Washington: He is not expected to lead Venezuela toward democracy, but to collapse a country that for the past two decades has been a bulwark of resistance to US hegemony. His unlikely rise signals the culmination of a two decades-long project to destroy a robust socialist experiment.


*Targeting the “troika of tyranny”*

Since the 1998 election of Hugo Chávez, the United States has fought to restore control over Venezuela and is vast oil reserves. Chávez’s socialist programs may have redistributed the country’s wealth and helped lift millions out of poverty, but they also earned him a target on his back.

In 2002, Venezuela’s right-wing opposition briefly ousted Chávez with US support and recognition, before the military restored his presidency following a mass popular mobilization. Throughout the administrations of US Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama, Chávez survived numerous assassination plots, before succumbing to cancer in 2013. His successor, Nicolas Maduro, has survived three attempts on his life.

The Trump administration immediately elevated Venezuela to the top of Washington’s regime change target list, branding it the leader of a “troika of tyranny.” Last year, Trump’s national security team attempted to recruit members of the military brass to mount a military junta, but that effort failed.

According to the Venezuelan government, the US was also involved in a plot, codenamed Operation Constitution, to capture Maduro at the Miraflores presidential palace; and another, called Operation Armageddon, to assassinate him at a military parade in July 2017. Just over a year later, exiled opposition leaders  with drone bombs during a military parade in Caracas.

More than a decade before these intrigues, a group of right-wing opposition students were hand-selected and groomed by an elite US-funded regime change training academy to topple Venezuela’s government and restore the neoliberal order.


*Training from the “‘export-a-revolution’ group that sowed the seeds for a NUMBER of color revolutions”*

On October 5, 2005, with Chávez’s popularity at its peak and his government planning sweeping socialist programs, five Venezuelan “student leaders” arrived in Belgrade, Serbia to begin training for an insurrection.

The students had arrived from Venezuela courtesy of the Center for Applied Non-Violent Action and Strategies, or CANVAS. This group is funded largely through the National Endowment for Democracy, a CIA cut-out that functions as the US government’s main arm of promoting regime change; and offshoots like the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs. According to leaked internal emails from Stratfor, an intelligence firm known as the “shadow CIA,” CANVAS “may have also received CIA funding and training during the 1999/2000 anti-Milosevic struggle.”

CANVAS is a spinoff of Otpor, a Serbian protest group founded by Srdja Popovic in 1998 at the University of Belgrade. Otpor, which means “resistance” in Serbian, was the student group that gained international fame — and Hollywood-level promotion — by mobilizing the protests that eventually toppled Slobodan Milosevic.

This small cell of regime change specialists was operating according to the theories of the late Gene Sharp, the so-called “Clausewitz of non-violent struggle.” Sharp had worked with a former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst, Col. Robert Helvey, to conceive a strategic blueprint that weaponized protest as a form of hybrid warfare, aiming it at states that resisted Washington’s unipolar domination.


Otpor at the 1998 MTV Europe Music Awards

Otpor was supported by the National Endowment for Democracy, USAID, and Sharp’s Albert Einstein Institute. Sinisa Sikman, one of Otpor’s main trainers, once said the group even received direct CIA funding.

According to a leaked email from a Stratfor staffer, after running Milosevic out of power, “the kids who ran OTPOR grew up, got suits and designed CANVAS… or in other words a ‘export-a-revolution’ group that sowed the seeds for a NUMBER of color revolutions. They are still hooked into U.S. funding and basically go around the world trying to topple dictators and autocratic governments (ones that U.S. does not like).”

Stratfor revealed that CANVAS “turned its attention to Venezuela” in 2005, after training opposition movements that led pro-NATO regime change operations across Eastern Europe.

While monitoring the CANVAS training program, Stratfor outlined its insurrectionist agenda in strikingly blunt language: “Success is by no means guaranteed, and student movements are only at the beginning of what could be a years-long effort to trigger a revolution in Venezuela, but the trainers themselves are the people who cut their teeth on the ‘Butcher of the Balkans.’ They’ve got mad skills. When you see students at five Venezuelan universities hold simultaneous demonstrations, you will know that the training is over and the real work has begun.”


*Birthing the “Generation 2007” regime change cadre*

The “real work” began two years later, in 2007, when Guaidó graduated from Andrés Bello Catholic University of Caracas. He moved to Washington, DC to enroll in the Governance and Political Management Program at George Washington University, under the tutelage of Venezuelan economist Luis Enrique Berrizbeitia, one of the top Latin American neoliberal economists. Berrizbeitia is a former executive director of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) who spent more than a decade working in the Venezuelan energy sector, under the old oligarchic regime that was ousted by Chávez.

That year, Guaidó helped lead anti-government rallies after the Venezuelan government declined to to renew the license of Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV). This privately owned station played a leading role in the 2002 coup against Hugo Chávez. RCTV helped mobilize anti-government demonstrators, falsified information blaming government supporters for acts of violence carried out by opposition members, and banned pro-government reporting amid the coup. The role of RCTV and other oligarch-owned stations in driving the failed coup attempt was chronicled in the acclaimed documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.

That same year, the students claimed credit for stymying Chavez’s constitutional referendum for a “21st century socialism” that promised “to set the legal framework for the political and social reorganization of the country, giving direct power to organized communities as a prerequisite for the development of a new economic system.”

From the protests around RCTV and the referendum, a specialized cadre of US-backed class of regime change activists was born. They called themselves “Generation 2007.”

The Stratfor and CANVAS trainers of this cell identified Guaidó’s ally – a libertarian political organizer named Yon Goicoechea – as a “key factor” in defeating the constitutional referendum. The following year, Goicochea was rewarded for his efforts with the Cato Institute’s Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty, along with a $500,000 prize, which he promptly invested into his political network.



Friedman, of course, was the godfather of the notorious neoliberal Chicago Boys who were imported into Chile by dictatorial junta leader Augusto Pinochet to implement policies of radical “shock doctrine”-style fiscal austerity. And the Cato Institute is the libertarian Washington DC-based think tank founded by the Koch Brothers, two top Republican Party donors who have become aggressive supporters of the right-wing across Latin America.

Wikileaks published a 2007 email from American ambassador to Venezuela William Brownfield sent to the State Department, National Security Council and Department of Defense Southern Command praising “Generation of ’07” for having “forced the Venezuelan president, accustomed to setting the political agenda, to (over)react.” Among the “emerging leaders” Brownfield identified were Freddy Guevara and Yon Goicoechea. He applauded the latter figure as “one of the students’ most articulate defenders of civil liberties.”

Flush with cash from libertarian oligarchs and US government soft power outfits, the radical Venezuelan cadre took their Otpor tactics to the streets, along with a version of the group’s logo, as seen below:




*“Galvanizing public unrest…to take advantage of the situation and spin it against Chavez”*

In 2009, the Generation 2007 youth activists staged their most provocative demonstration yet, dropping their pants on public roads and aping the outrageous guerrilla theater tactics outlined by Gene Sharp in his regime change manuals. The protesters had mobilized against the arrest of an ally from another newfangled youth group called JAVU. This far-right group “gathered funds from a variety of US government sources, which allowed it to gain notoriety quickly as the hardline wing of opposition street movements,” according to academic George Ciccariello-Maher’s book, “Building the Commune.”

While video of the protest is not available, many Venezuelans have identified Guaidó as one of its key participants. While the allegation is unconfirmed, it is certainly plausible; the bare-buttocks protesters were members of the Generation 2007 inner core that Guaidó belonged to, and were clad in their trademark Resistencia! Venezuela t-shirts, as seen below:

Is this the ass that Trump wants to install in Venezuela’s seat of power?

That year, Guaidó exposed himself to the public in another way, founding a political party to capture the anti-Chavez energy his Generation 2007 had cultivated. Called Popular Will, it was led by Leopoldo López, a Princeton-educated right-wing firebrand heavily involved in National Endowment for Democracy programs and elected as the mayor of a district in Caracas that was one of the wealthiest in the country. Lopez was a portrait of Venezuelan aristocracy, directly descended from his country’s first president. He was also the first cousin of Thor Halvorssen, founder of the US-based Human Rights Foundation that functions as a de facto publicity shop for US-backed anti-government activists in countries targeted by Washington for regime change.

Though Lopez’s interests aligned neatly with Washington’s, US diplomatic cables published by Wikileaks highlighted the fanatical tendencies that would ultimately lead to Popular Will’s marginalization. One cable identified Lopez as “a divisive figure within the opposition… often described as arrogant, vindictive, and power-hungry.” Others highlighted his obsession with street confrontations and his “uncompromising approach” as a source of tension with other opposition leaders who prioritized unity and participation in the country’s democratic institutions.


Popular Will founder Leopoldo Lopez cruising with his wife, Lilian Tintori


By 2010, Popular Will and its foreign backers moved to exploit the worst drought to hit Venezuela in decades. Massive electricity shortages had struck the country due the dearth of water, which was needed to power hydroelectric plants. A global economic recession and declining oil prices compounded the crisis, driving public discontentment.

Stratfor and CANVAS – key advisors of Guaidó and his anti-government cadre – devised a shockingly cynical plan to drive a dagger through the heart of the Bolivarian revolution. The scheme hinged on a 70% collapse of the country’s electrical system by as early as April 2010.

“This could be the watershed event, as there is little that Chavez can do to protect the poor from the failure of that system,” the Stratfor internal memo declared. “This would likely have the impact of galvanizing public unrest in a way that no opposition group could ever hope to generate. At that point in time, an opposition group would be best served to take advantage of the situation and spin it against Chavez and towards their needs.”

By this point, the Venezuelan opposition was receiving a staggering $40-50 million a year from US government organizations like USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy, according to a report by the Spanish think tank, the FRIDE Institute. It also had massive wealth to draw on from its own accounts, which were mostly outside the country.

While the scenario envisioned by Statfor did not come to fruition, the Popular Will party activists and their allies cast aside any pretense of non-violence and joined a radical plan to destabilize the country.


*Towards violent destabilization*

In November, 2010, according to emails obtained by Venezuelan security services and presented by former Justice Minister Miguel Rodríguez Torres, Guaidó, Goicoechea, and several other student activists attended a secret five-day training at a hotel dubbed “Fiesta Mexicana” hotel in Mexico. The sessions were run by Otpor, the Belgrade-based regime change trainers backed by the US government. The meeting had reportedly received the blessing of Otto Reich, a fanatically anti-Castro Cuban exile working in George W. Bush’s Department of State, and the right-wing former Colombian President Alvaro Uribe.

Inside the meetings, the emails stated, Guaidó and his fellow activists hatched a plan to overthrow President Hugo Chavez by generating chaos through protracted spasms of street violence.

Three petroleum industry figureheads – Gustavo Torrar, Eligio Cedeño and Pedro Burelli – allegedly covered the $52,000 tab to hold the meeting. Torrar is a self-described “human rights activist” and “intellectual” whose younger brother Reynaldo Tovar Arroyo is the representative in Venezuela of the private Mexican oil and gas company Petroquimica del Golfo, which holds a contract with the Venezuelan state.

Cedeño, for his part, is a fugitive Venezuelan businessman who claimed asylum in the United States, and Pedro Burelli a former JP Morgan executive and the former director of Venezuela’s national oil company, Petroleum of Venezuela (PDVSA). He left PDVSA in 1998 as Hugo Chavez took power and is on the advisory committee of Georgetown University’s Latin America Leadership Program.

Burelli insisted that the emails detailing his participation had been fabricated and even hired a private investigator to prove it. The investigator declared that Google’s records showed the emails alleged to be his were never transmitted.
Yet today Burelli makes no secret of his desire to see Venezuela’s current president, Nicolás Maduro, deposed – and even dragged through the streets and sodomized with a bayonet, as Libyan leader Moammar Qaddafi was by NATO-backed militiamen.

*Update:* _Burelli contacted the Grayzone after the publication of this article to clarify his participation in the “Fiesta Mexicana” plot. 
Burelli called the meeting “a legitimate activity that took place in a hotel by a different name” in Mexico.

Asked if OTPOR coordinated the meeting, he would only state that he “likes” the work of OTPOR/CANVAS and while not a funder of it, has “recommended activists from different countries to track them and participate in the activities they conduct in various countries.”
Burelli added: “The Einstein Institute trained thousands openly in Venezuela. Gene Sharpe’s philosophy was widely studied and embraced. And this has probably kept the struggle from turning into a civil war.”
_
The alleged Fiesta Mexicana plot flowed into another destabilization plan revealed in a series of documents produced by the Venezuelan government. In May 2014, Caracas released documents detailing an assassination plot against President Nicolás Maduro. The leaks identified the anti-Chavez hardliner Maria Corina Machado – today the main asset of Sen. Marco Rubio – as a leader of the scheme. The founder of the National Endowment for Democracy-funded group, Sumate, Machado has functioned as an international liaison for the opposition, visiting President George W. Bush in 2005.

Machado and George W. Bush, 2005

“I think it is time to gather efforts; make the necessary calls, and obtain financing to annihilate Maduro and the rest will fall apart,” Machado wrote in an email to former Venezuelan diplomat Diego Arria in 2014.

In another email, Machado claimed that the violent plot had the blessing of US Ambassador to Colombia, Kevin Whitaker. “I have already made up my mind and this fight will continue until this regime is overthrown and we deliver to our friends in the world. If I went to San Cristobal and exposed myself before the OAS, I fear nothing. Kevin Whitaker has already reconfirmed his support and he pointed out the new steps. We have a checkbook stronger than the regime’s to break the international security ring.”

*Guaidó heads to the barricades*

That February, student demonstrators acting as shock troops for the exiled oligarchy erected violent barricades across the country, turning opposition-controlled quarters into violent fortresses known as _guarimbas_. While international media portrayed the upheaval as a spontaneous protest against Maduro’s iron-fisted rule, there was ample evidence that Popular Will was orchestrating the show.

“None of the protesters at the universities wore their university t-shirts, they all wore Popular Will or Justice First t-shirts,” a _guarimba_ participant said at the time. “They might have been student groups, but the student councils are affiliated to the political opposition parties and they are accountable to them.”

Asked who the ringleaders were, the _guarimba_ participant said, “Well if I am totally honest, those guys are legislators now.”
Around 43 were killed during the 2014 _guarimbas_. Three years later, they erupted again, causing mass destruction of public infrastructure, the murder of government supporters, and the deaths of 126 people, many of whom were Chavistas. In several cases, supporters of the government were burned alive by armed gangs.

Guaidó was directly involved in the 2014 _guarimbas_. In fact, he tweeted video showing himself clad in a helmet and gas mask, surrounded by masked and armed elements that had shut down a highway that were engaging in a violent clash with the police. Alluding to his participation in Generation 2007, he proclaimed, “I remember in 2007, we proclaimed, ‘Students!’ Now, we shout, ‘Resistance! Resistance!'”

Guaidó has deleted the tweet, demonstrating apparent concern for his image as a champion of democracy.

On February 12, 2014, during the height of that year’s _guarimbas_, Guaidó joined Lopez on stage at a rally of Popular Will and Justice First. During a lengthy diatribe against the government, Lopez urged the crowd to march to the office of Attorney General Luisa Ortega Diaz. Soon after, Diaz’s office came under attack by armed gangs who attempted to burn it to the ground. She denounced what she called “planned and premeditated violence.”


Guaido alongside Lopez at the fateful February 12, 2014 rally

In an televised appearance in 2016, Guaidó dismissed deaths resulting from _guayas_ – a _guarimba_ tactic involving stretching steel wire across a roadway in order to injure or kill motorcyclists – as a “myth.” His comments whitewashed a deadly tactic that had killed unarmed civilians like Santiago Pedroza and decapitated a man named Elvis Durán, among many others.

This callous disregard for human life would define his Popular Will party in the eyes of much of the public, including many opponents of Maduro.


*Cracking down on Popular Will *

As violence and political polarization escalated across the country, the government began to act against the Popular Will leaders who helped stoke it.

Freddy Guevara, the National Assembly Vice-President and second in command of Popular Will, was a principal leader in the 2017 street riots. Facing a trial for his role in the violence, Guevara took shelter in the Chilean embassy, where he remains.
Lester Toledo, a Popular Will legislator from the state of Zulia, was wanted by Venezuelan government in September 2016 on charges of financing terrorism and plotting assassinations. The plans were said to be made with former Colombian President Álavaro Uribe. Toledo escaped Venezuela and went on several speaking tours with Human Rights Watch, the US government-backed Freedom House, the Spanish Congress and European Parliament.

Carlos Graffe, another Otpor-trained Generation 2007 member who led Popular Will, was arrested in July 2017. According to police, he was in possession of a bag filled with nails, C4 explosives and a detonator. He was released on December 27, 2017.
Leopoldo Lopez, the longtime Popular Will leader, is today under house arrest, accused of a key role in deaths of 13 people during the _guarimbas_ in 2014. Amnesty International lauded Lopez as a “prisoner of conscience” and slammed his transfer from prison to house as “not good enough.” Meanwhile, family members of _guarimba_ victims introduced a petition for more charges against Lopez.

Yon Goicoechea, the Koch Brothers posterboy, was arrested in 2016 by security forces who claimed they found found a kilo of explosives in his vehicle. In a New York Times op-ed, Goicoechea protested the charges as “trumped-up” and claimed he had been imprisoned simply for his “dream of a democratic society, free of Communism.” He was freed in November 2017.

David Smolansky, also a member of the original Otpor-trained Generation 2007, became Venezuela’s youngest-ever mayor when he was elected in 2013 in the affluent suburb of El Hatillo. But he was stripped of his position and sentenced to 15 months in prison by the Supreme Court after it found him culpable of stirring the violent _guarimbas_.

Facing arrest, Smolansky shaved his beard, donned sunglasses and slipped into Brazil disguised as a priest with a bible in hand and rosary around his neck. He now lives in Washington, DC, where he was hand picked by Secretary of the Organization of American States Luis Almagro to lead the working group on the Venezuelan migrant and refugee crisis.

This July 26, Smolansky held what he called a “cordial reunion” with Elliot Abrams, the convicted Iran-Contra felon installed by Trump as special US envoy to Venezuela. Abrams is notorious for overseeing the US covert policy of arming right-wing death squads during the 1980’s in Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Guatemala. His lead role in the Venezuelan coup has stoked fears that another blood-drenched proxy war might be on the way.

Four days earlier, Machado rumbled another violent threat against Maduro, declaring that if he “wants to save his life, he should understand that his time is up.”


*A pawn in their game*

The collapse of Popular Will under the weight of the violent campaign of destabilization it ran alienated large sectors of the public and wound much of its leadership up in exile or in custody. Guaidó had remained a relatively minor figure, having spent most of his nine-year career in the National Assembly as an alternate deputy. Hailing from one of Venezuela’s least populous states, Guaidó came in second place during the 2015 parliamentary elections, winning just 26% of votes cast in order to secure his place in the National Assembly. Indeed, his bottom may have been better known than his face.

Guaidó is known as the president of the opposition-dominated National Assembly, but he was never elected to the position. The four opposition parties that comprised the Assembly’s Democratic Unity Table had decided to establish a rotating presidency. Popular Will’s turn was on the way, but its founder, Lopez, was under house arrest. Meanwhile, his second-in-charge, Guevara, had taken refuge in the Chilean embassy. A figure named Juan Andrés Mejía would have been next in line but reasons that are only now clear, Juan Guaido was selected. 

“There is a class reasoning that explains Guaidó’s rise,” Sequera, the Venezuelan analyst, observed. “Mejía is high class, studied at one of the most expensive private universities in Venezuela, and could not be easily marketed to the public the way Guaidó could. For one, Guaidó has common _mestizo_ features like most Venezuelans do, and seems like more like a man of the people. Also, he had not been overexposed in the media, so he could be built up into pretty much anything.”

In December 2018, Guaidó sneaked across the border and junketed to Washington, Colombia and Brazil to coordinate the plan to hold mass demonstrations during the inauguration of President Maduro. The night before Maduro’s swearing-in ceremony, both Vice President Mike Pence and Canadian Foreign Minister Chrystia Freeland called Guaidó to affirm their support.

A week later, Sen. Marco Rubio, Sen. Rick Scott and Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart – all lawmakers from the Florida base of the right-wing Cuban exile lobby – joined President Trump and Vice President Pence at the White House. At their request, Trump agreed that if Guaidó declared himself president, he would back him.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met personally withGuaidó on January 10, according to the Wall Street Journal. However, Pompeo could not pronounce Guaidó’s name when he mentioned him in a press briefing on January 25, referring to him as “Juan Guido.”

By January 11, Guaidó’s Wikipedia page had been edited 37 times, highlighting the struggle to shape the image of a previously anonymous figure who was now a tableau for Washington’s regime change ambitions. In the end, editorial oversight of his page was handed over to Wikipedia’s elite council of “librarians,” who pronounced him the “contested” president of Venezuela.

Guaidó might have been an obscure figure, but his combination of radicalism and opportunism satisfied Washington’s needs. “That internal piece was missing,” a Trump administration said of Guaidó. “He was the piece we needed for our strategy to be coherent and complete.”

“For the first time,” Brownfield, the former American ambassador to Venezuela, gushed to the New York Times, “you have an opposition leader who is clearly signaling to the armed forces and to law enforcement that he wants to keep them on the side of the angels and with the good guys.”

But Guaidó’s Popular Will party formed the shock troops of the _guarimbas_ that caused the deaths of police officers and common citizens alike. He had even boasted of his own participation in street riots. And now, to win the hearts and minds of the military and police, Guaido had to erase this blood-soaked history.

On January 21, a day before the coup began in earnest, Guaidó’s wife delivered a video address calling on the military to rise up against Maduro. Her performance was wooden and uninspiring, underscoring her husband’s political limits.

While Guaidó waits on direct assistance, he remains what he has always been – a pet project of cynical outside forces. “It doesn’t matter if he crashes and burns after all these misadventures,” Sequera said of the coup figurehead. “To the Americans, he is expendable.”



_________________________


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## Blue (Jan 31, 2019)

This desperate propaganda posting while hundreds of thousands of actual Venezuelans march for Guaidó

I guess they're just stupid and they should stick with the socialist dictator bus driver


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

*Venezuela's Guaido refuses to rule out accepting US military support amid escalating political crisis*

By , CNN
Updated 1819 GMT (0219 HKT) January 31, 2019




________________

Of course not.


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## Blue (Jan 31, 2019)

Also polite reminder to the studio audience that anyone who posts Russia Times isn't being honest

(or they're just really dumb)


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

Blue said:


> This desperate propaganda posting while hundreds of thousands of actual Venezuelans march for Guaidó
> 
> I guess they're just stupid and they should stick with the socialist dictator bus driver



I call it 'counter propaganda'. But let's face it, the guy reeks of 'US stooge' from a mile away.

The Venezuelans can pick whoever they want as their leader. But there should be no meddling from outside. Which should be a given.





Blue said:


> Also polite reminder to the studio audience that anyone who posts Russia Times isn't being honest
> 
> (or they're just really dumb)



I would never post anything from Russia Times.


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## Mider T (Jan 31, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> The Venezuelans can pick whoever they want as their leader. But there should be no meddling from outside. Which should be a given.


Nah if Maduro is picked again then he should be removed.


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Nah if Maduro is picked again then he should be removed.


If Venezuelans pick Maduro, he should be removed? By who?


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## Ignition (Jan 31, 2019)

Btw I heard Venezuela's elections are electronic, how do you right them exactly?


Got a phone call today probably from some government poll (Argentina 2019 elections, seems like Macri is desperate to get reelected despite his own failed economy plans), one of the questions was if I thought the US was behind Venezuela's coup


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

Ignition said:


> Btw I heard Venezuela's elections are electronic, how do you right them exactly?
> 
> 
> Got a phone call today probably from some government poll (Argentina 2019 elections, seems like Macri is desperate to get reelected despite his own failed economy plans), one of the questions was if I thought the US was behind Venezuela's coup


And your answer?


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)




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## Mider T (Jan 31, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> If Venezuelans pick Maduro, he should be removed? By who?


Anybody.


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## Ignition (Jan 31, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> And your answer?



My answer is pretty obvious, it's Venezuela's turn now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son of Goku (Jan 31, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Anybody.


So you have no respect for the will of the Venezuelan people or for democracy as a whole? Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Mider T (Jan 31, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> So you have no respect for the will of the Venezuelan people or for democracy as a whole? Thanks for clearing that up.


The Venezuelan people don't want Maduro unless you have been ignoring pretty much everything you would know that.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 31, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> That's not actually true, is it?


Do you have any evidence it's not? Don't talk about recent sanctions as such a development was a week or two after my post and as the Venezuelan economy is in such a disastrous state I doubt the oil sanctions really do much of anything now.


Son of Goku said:


> I would never post anything from Russia Times.


Are you being intentionally dishonest right now?


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## Blue (Jan 31, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> I would never post anything from Russia Times.







Ignition said:


> My answer is pretty obvious, it's Venezuela's turn now.


Socialists. You ought to be grateful. We missed Chavez and look what happened.


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## MrGayNight (Jan 31, 2019)

Google translate.

It's apparently a local Venezuelan newspaper.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

Mider T said:


> The Venezuelan people don't want Maduro unless you have been ignoring pretty much everything you would know that.


I never said they did. It was your hypothetical. KEEP UP BANANA!



> Son of Goku said:
> 
> 
> > The Venezuelans can pick whoever they want as their leader. But there should be no meddling from outside. Which should be a given.
> ...


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## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

Blue said:


>



Exactly.


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## Blue (Feb 1, 2019)




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## sworder (Feb 1, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> The Venezuelans can pick whoever they want as their leader.


The cognitive dissonance in your posts is mind-blowing.

No they can't, which is exactly why we have this crisis.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Do you have any evidence it's not? Don't talk about recent sanctions as such a development was a week or two after my post and as the Venezuelan economy is in such a disastrous state I doubt the oil sanctions really do much of anything now.



Evidence? No, just opinions. Such as yours.




> Are you being intentionally dishonest right now?


Not in the least. 
But I do post from the New York _Today_, at times.


@Blue 
Btw: If CNN had invited one of the authors to talk about his findings, I would've gladly posted their vid. But that would never happen, because they only invite pro regime change shills, so...


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## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

sworder said:


> The cognitive dissonance in your posts is mind-blowing.
> 
> No they can't, which is exactly why we have this crisis.



No. They are trying, which is why we have this crisis. Saying "they can't" just because it hasn't been successful yet is dumb and void of any historic and global context.


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## Blue (Feb 1, 2019)

Not like CNN isn't garbage. Not quite RT tier garbage, but you have to go back to Nazi germany to find less truthful propaganda than that.

The point is it's the year 2019, you can hop on this "internet" thing and ask an actual Venezuelan what they think and not rely on shit-sucking 'journalists' telling you what to think.


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## Mofo (Feb 1, 2019)

Actual Venezuelan on the internet would:
A) speak English
B) own a mobile device or a computer

Which implies your sample would be biased toward people with enough education and wealth  to fit the aforementioned criteria. Something tells me it's much more likely that this Venezuelan would support  Guaido rather than Maduro.
Statistics is cool.


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## Blue (Feb 1, 2019)

Mofo said:


> Actual Venezuelan on the internet would:
> A) speak English
> B) own a mobile device or a computer
> 
> ...


People with education supporting Guaido? God forbid anyone make an informed decision.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

Blue said:


> Not like CNN isn't garbage. Not quite RT tier garbage, but you have to go back to Nazi germany to find less truthful propaganda than that.
> 
> The point is it's the year 2019, you can hop on this "internet" thing and ask an actual Venezuelan what they think and not rely on shit-sucking 'journalists' telling you what to think.


Nah, you can stay in the present day and find worse sources. 

How would the average Venezuelan who hasn't heard about Guaido until recently know more about his background than an investigative journalist who actually has done some digging?



Blue said:


> People with education supporting Guaido? God forbid anyone make an informed decision.


Deliberate obtusity can be fun, amirite?!


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## Mofo (Feb 1, 2019)

Blue said:


> People with education supporting Guaido? God forbid anyone make an informed decision.


It's  a proxy for money, again in a country where voting patterns are split across  census.


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## Tony Lou (Feb 1, 2019)

> Acknowledged by the Venezuelan congress
> Acknowledged by several countries (not just the U.S)
> Supported by the Venezuelan people

"Declares himself"

That phrase is used by leftist trash who support a ruthless dictator just because he is a socialist.


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## RavenSupreme (Feb 1, 2019)

Luiz said:


> > Acknowledged by the Venezuelan congress
> > Acknowledged by several countries (not just the U.S)
> > Supported by the Venezuelan people
> 
> ...



The acknowledging of him just can come after he declares himself. Without him declaring himself there would be nothing to acknowledge.


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## Island (Feb 1, 2019)

Luiz said:


> > Acknowledged by the Venezuelan congress
> > Acknowledged by several countries (not just the U.S)
> > Supported by the Venezuelan people
> 
> ...


Relax, this isn't some "dem evil libs" conspiracy theory.

"Declaring oneself president/king/emperor/whatever" is commonly used whenever somebody takes a title through atypical methods.


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## Tony Lou (Feb 1, 2019)

Island said:


> Relax, this isn't some "dem evil libs" conspiracy theory.
> 
> "Declaring oneself president/king/emperor/whatever" is commonly used whenever somebody takes a title through atypical methods.



Know what is a conspiracy theory? This whole "muh oil" speculation. 

Unless there is an actual, official investigation that brings up hard evidence, it is worthless.


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## Blue (Feb 1, 2019)

MUH OIL is beyond delusional, a recycling of a decades-old criticism of the US by people not smart enough to pivot to a new reality where the US is not only exporting oil, but oil isn't even that valuable.

If I was an anti-American shill, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a new talking point, but it would take some work, because in reality there's nothing. The only reason we're doing anything at all is to piss on Chavez's grave, and to shit on socialism in general. We're definitely not gonna land the marines just to own the reds.

Which is sad, we should actually do things, and do them for real reasons.

Probably if I wanted to come up with a lie about why the US is evil and interfering with Venezuela I'd look into the expat community in Miami. , and you could probably spin a narrative about how they're directing an attack on Venezuela out of spite for being forced out.


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## Blue (Feb 1, 2019)

tfw you're so bored with the level of discourse you write new talking points for your opponents


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## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

Blue said:


> MUH OIL is beyond delusional, a recycling of a decades-old criticism of the US by people not smart enough to pivot to a new reality where the US is not only exporting oil, but oil isn't even that valuable.
> 
> If I was an anti-American shill, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a new talking point, but it would take some work, because in reality there's nothing. The only reason we're doing anything at all is to piss on Chavez's grave, and to shit on socialism in general. We're definitely not gonna land the marines just to own the reds.
> 
> ...



You can stop trying, your buddy Bolton already came out.


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## Mofo (Feb 1, 2019)

It's not about  Exxon's balance sheet buddy. It's about a few dozen shell companies being quietly incorporated in Guernsey  or Belize that will be accruing monthly cash installments for a few years.
That on top of the geopolitical interest the US has always had in the area. That on top of all that sweet Government contracts money to get the sector up to speed. That on top of controlling the  marginal price of a barrel, that's the single largest  fuck you to OPEC and KSA.  Heck, the advantages outweigh the cons of interfering.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Saishin (Feb 1, 2019)

*Italy Not Recognizing Guaido as Venezuelan Interim President - Deputy FM*

ROME (Sputnik) – Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Manlio Di Stefano said Italy has not recognized Venezuelan opposition leader and the head of the National Assembly, Juan Guaido, as the country’s interim president amid the escalating political crisis in the South American country.

"Italy does not recognize Guaido because we absolutely oppose the fact that a country or a group of third countries can determine internal policies of another country. This is called the principle of non-interference and has been recognized by the United Nations," Di Stefano, told the Tv2000 broadcaster on Thursday.

Di Stefano also emphasized the importance of avoiding the eruption of a military conflict, similar to the war in Libya, in Venezuela.

Meanwhile, Italy’s another Deputy Foreign Minister Guglielmo Picchi, wrote on Twitter on Thursday that his party believed the presidency of Maduro was coming to its end, calling for a new election to be held in Venezuela with the participation of independent observers.

Italian Foreign Minister Enzo Moavero Milanesi said on Wednesday that his country shared the position of the European Union on the Venezuelan crisis, calling for free and transparent presidential elections to be held in the country.

Earlier EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Federica Mogherini announced the establishment of an international contact group on Venezuela's crisis, saying that the group will be coordinated by the European Union and will be operating for a limited time frame of 90 days.

On January 23, Guaido proclaimed himself as the country’s interim president and was immediately supported by the United States and a number of other countries. France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain and the United Kingdom, said last Saturday they would recognize Guaido as Venezuela’s interim president if the new elections are not called within eight days.

Constitutionally elected Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro urged European countries to withdraw their demand, accussing Washington of orchestrating a coup in the country.

Russia, China, Mexico, Uruguay, Iran and Turkey among other countries, have voiced support for Maduro as the only legitimate president of Venezuela. 



*MAJOR: Italy Refuses To Recognize Guaido*

Lega’s Treachery 

At the same time, another deputy minister, Guglielmo Picchi, said that his party, the League (Lega, formerly Nega Nord), which formed a government in coalition with the Movement, said that the Maduro presidency is over. Picchi called for new elections in Venezuela.

On Wednesday, Italian Foreign Minister Enzo Moavero Milanese announced that the country fully shares the EU position. He also called for a “free and transparent” presidential election.

The foreign ministers of the EU countries did not make a general decision on recognizing Guaido, stating that this step has the right to make each of the 28 EU countries separately.

The newspaper VIEW told us that the events in Venezuela caused an uproar in Italy against the EU, which the Italian public already views unfavorably. Therefore, the official position of Italy – not recognizing Guaido – is both a compromise position within Italy and as part of the EU. 

Despite differences in approach and phrasing, the Italian government on the whole effectively recognizes Maduro as the current and acting president. Lega’s position mirrors that of other EU countries, which nominally recognizes Maduro but calls for new elections. The 5 Star Movement however recognizes Maduro without qualifications.


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## RavenSupreme (Feb 1, 2019)

Saishin said:


> *Italy Not Recognizing Guaido as Venezuelan Interim President - Deputy FM*
> 
> ROME (Sputnik) – Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Manlio Di Stefano said Italy has not recognized Venezuelan opposition leader and the head of the National Assembly, Juan Guaido, as the country’s interim president amid the escalating political crisis in the South American country.
> 
> ...



Getting really tired of Italy’s shit to be frank. It’s clear they just want to spite  the eu and appeal to their radical base


----------



## Son of Goku (Feb 1, 2019)

*U.S. Push to Oust Venezuela’s Maduro Marks First Shot in Plan to Reshape Latin America*

Ian Talley January 30, 2019

WASHINGTON—The Trump administration’s attempt to force out the president of Venezuela marked the opening of a new strategy to exert greater U.S. influence over Latin America, according to administration officials.

In sight isn’t just Venezuela’s Nicolás Maduro, but also Cuba, an antagonist that has dominated American attention in the region for more than 50 years, as well as recent inroads made by Russia, China and Iran.

Vice President Mike Pence on Tuesday greeted Carlos Alfredo Vecchio, right, who was named a diplomatic representative to the U.S. by Juan Guaidó, who has claimed Venezuela’s presidency.

While Mr. Maduro and his predecessor, Hugo Chávez, have long drawn Washington’s condemnation, the Trump administration is stocked with officials who have long believed Cuba to be the more serious national-security threat. They cite Cuba’s intelligence operations in the U.S., and its efforts to spread anti-American views in other Latin American countries.

The goal, the administration’s thinking goes, is to sever ties that bind Venezuela to Cuba and sink regimes in both countries.

The emerging U.S. assertiveness stems from the desire of the White House to reverse a partial rapprochement with Havana by the Obama administration through the easing of sanctions and the island’s opening to U.S. investment.

The Trump administration’s policy, developed over the past two years, has been driven in part by the ascent of Cuba critics including Mauricio Claver-Carone, a National Security Council official who had devoted much of his life to deposing Fidel Castro. The policy was shaped by the lobbying of elected officials such as Republican Sen. Marco Rubio and U.S. Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, who have a large number of constituents with connections to Venezuela.

Cuban intelligence is deeply integrated in the Venezuelan military and the security apparatus of the Maduro government. Venezuela, in turn, provides Havana with crude oil at virtually no cost, a volume that had once reached 100,000 barrels of oil a day. As each country has become more isolated, they have strengthened ties with Moscow, Tehran and Beijing.

After Venezuela and Cuba, U.S. officials are eyeing Nicaragua. The State Department repeatedly warned of the country’s shift toward autocratic rule, government repression and violence. Nicaraguans are joining the flow of migrants toward the U.S. border with Mexico.

“The United States looks forward to watching each corner of the triangle fall: in Havana, in Caracas, in Managua,” the capital of Nicaragua, said John Bolton, national security adviser, in a November speech that unveiled the emerging strategy. He described the three countries as the “Troika of tyranny,” a phrase he coined, adding that the “Troika will crumble.”

Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro raises his fist Sunday alongside first lady Cilia Flores at a naval base in Puerto Cabello, Venezuela.

On the same day, the administration unveiled new sanctions against Cuba and Venezuela, including on more than two dozen entities owned or controlled by the Cuban military and intelligence services and Venezuela’s gold sector.

The U.S. strategy carries major risks. If the administration’s support for opposition leader Juan Guaidó in Venezuela fails to unseat Mr. Maduro, or if it fails to weaken ties between Caracas and Havana, the desperate conditions in Venezuela could worsen and tether the U.S. more closely with the crisis. An estimated three million Venezuelans have fled their country.

Failure also would hand both countries a David-and-Goliath diplomatic victory and potentially strengthen the hand of China, Moscow and Iran in the region. The chief reason President Obama pursued an entente with Cuba was his administration’s conclusion that decades of tough measures had failed to topple the Castro regime to make way for a democratic alternative.

It seems unlikely the U.S. will be able to bring along other countries in any anti-Cuba measures. Venezuela has been a pariah for many American allies, but some including Canada and France now have extensive business interests in Cuba.

One of the Trump administration’s first actions after the election was to dust off an unused plan from the Obama administration to sanction Tareck El Aissami, Mr. Maduro’s vice president.

Opposition leader Juan Guaidó, center, marches with students Wednesday during a protest against the government of President Nicolás Maduro in Caracas.

U.S. law-enforcement officials say they have evidence Mr. Maduro directed state resources to create what they allege has become one of the most powerful international narco-trafficking operations in the world, and with links to Hezbollah, the Lebanese group designated by the U.S. as a terror organization.

Part of why U.S. officials express concern about Iran’s influence in the region is that Iran is a major backer of Hezbollah, and its South American operations are a significant source of cash.

Mr. El Aissami, who ran Venezuela’s passport operations during the Chavez regime, issued thousands of new names and passports to Lebanese and Iranians, including operatives, the U.S. officials said. He allegedly made a deal with a top Hezbollah agent that its operatives would run money-laundering operations for the narco-trafficking empire, two former senior U.S. law-enforcement officials said.

On the day Steven Mnuchin was sworn in as Treasury Secretary in February 2017, he imposed sanctions on Mr. El Aissami, citing the allegations involving narco-trafficking.

Among the first officials to lay out options for the Trump administration was Fernando Cutz, a career USAID foreign-service officer, who had previously worked on the rapprochement with Cuba for the Obama administration.

Mauricio Claver-Carone, senior director of the National Security Council's Western Hemisphere Affairs, speaking Tuesday outside the White House.

Mr. Cutz, now at the Cohen Group, said in an interview that President Trump asked for a Venezuela briefing on his second day in office to explore how to reverse Obama-era policies toward Cuba. Mr. Cutz laid out options to escalate pressure on the Maduro regime, including a financial strike at Venezuela’s oil exports. At first, the administration held back, fearing such an action would allow Mr. Maduro to blame the country’s woes on Washington.

Mr. Bolton, named national security adviser last year, has long taken a tough line on Cuba and Venezuela. He was later joined by Mr. Claver-Carone, who took over western hemispheric affairs at the National Security Council and shared Mr. Bolton’s view.

Mr. Claver-Carone, an adviser to the Trump campaign, rose to prominence in foreign-policy circles for running a blog called the Capitol Hill Cubans.

From the beginning of the Trump administration, critics have chided President Trump for not working more closely with allies. But right now the U.S. is working with allies in Venezuela. WSJ's Gerald F. Seib explains.

An archived edition of Capitol Hill Cubans described Mr. Claver-Carone as the co-founder and director of U.S.-Cuba Democracy PAC, a donation vehicle for House and Senate members. It was founded in 2003 “to promote an unconditional transition in Cuba to democracy, the rule of law and the free market.”

The PAC has raised and spent about $4.7 million since its inception. It contributed $20,000 to Mr. Rubio’s Senate campaign since June 2016 and gave Diaz-Balart’s campaign $5,000 in February 2018, records show.

Mr. Claver-Carone also led the nonprofit group Cuba Democracy Advocates from 2004 to 2017. And he ran a small lobbying firm called the Cuba Democracy Public Advocacy Corp for about 10 years, ending in 2016.

Months after Mr. Claver-Carone joined the Trump administration last summer, Mr. Bolton delivered his “troika of tyranny” speech.

Sen. Marco Rubio, a Republican from Florida, center, speaks Tuesday alongside U.S. Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, far left, Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida and, far right, GOP Sen. Rick Scott.

The decision by two of Venezuela’s major opposition parties and past rivals—First Justice and Popular Will—to join forces a year ago provided for the first time a potential alternative to the Maduro regime. Mr. Guaidó is a member of Popular Will. U.S. officials kept in close contact.

“This gave them credibility with the international community,” said Francisco Monaldi, a Venezuela expert and oil industry analyst at Rice University. “There was a great disdain for the opposition, but it lessened at least to the degree that the White House believed this bet is possible.”

The stage for action was set in an election last spring that more than 60 countries, including the U.S., dismissed as a sham, Mr. Maduro claimed victory. He extended his rule for six years in a swearing in a Jan. 10 ceremony.

The election last year of Colombian President Iván Duqueand Jair Bolsonaro, Brazil’s new leader, also shifted the political landscape: Both are on Venezuela’s doorstep and struggling to cope with the country’s mass exodus.

In a trip over the New Year’s holidays, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo met with his Brazilian and Colombian counterparts, and he discussed a plan of action with Mr. Duque.

Mr. Maduro’s inauguration on January 10 set the wheels in motion in the Venezuelan National Assembly and at the White House, as officials seized on the momentum of street protests.

At a summit last month in Havana, from left, Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega; Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro; Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel; Bolivian President Evo Morales, and Ralph Gonsalves, the president of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Photo: ernesto mastrascusa/EPA/Shutterstock

On Jan. 22, top administration officials, including Mr. Pompeo, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross, Mr. Bolton and Mr. Mnuchin discussed options. Mr. Trump decided he was ready to support a regime change.

That night, Vice President Mike Pence called Mr. Guaidó to express Washington’s willingness to back him. The next day, Mr. Guaidó declared himself president and the U.S., along with Canada and most South American countries, officially recognized Mr. Guaidó as the new leader of Venezuela.

“We’ve seen a real unity of purpose in the region in the last couple of weeks,” a senior Treasury official said. “It’s difficult to talk about Venezuela without also talking about Cuba.”

The imposition of sanctions on Venezuela’s oil company, PdVSA, announced by the U.S. on Jan. 28, could be worth as much $11 billion in U.S. crude oil sales.

Among the next steps, U.S. officials said, are proposed new measures against Havana, such as restoring Cuba’s designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. That could hit financing and investments from countries outside the U.S. that now do business there, as well as the funds the country gets from international tourists.

Also on the list: new sanctions on Cuban officials and their networks and ending a waiver, known as Title III of the Helms-Burton Act, signed by every U.S. administration since its inception in 1996.

Ending the waiver would allow U.S. citizens to sue individuals and companies in U.S. courts for property seized by the Cuban government. Its impact would likely be to freeze billions of dollars worth of foreign investment in Cuba including hotels, golf courses and other projects.

The Trump administration is expected to announce new measures against Cuba in coming weeks, with the goal of crippling Havana’s ability to bolster the Maduro regime.


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## Saishin (Feb 1, 2019)

RavenSupreme said:


> Getting really tired of Italy’s shit to be frank. It’s clear they just want to spite  the eu and appeal to their radical base


The Italian government do not want to support nor Guaido nor Maduro.
Italy is in the contact group which include Italy,Germany,France,Spain,UK,Bolivia,Ecuador and at the same time support the principle of dialogue promoted by Mexico and Uruguay among Government and opposition to seek a third way to the Venezuelan crisis,personally I want to see Maduro overthrown and Guaido at the first impression seems ok but from a democratic point of view if we think deeply this support towards someone that auto-proclaimed himself as president is a violation of the rule of law and a dangerous precedent for democracy,since that someone could rise somewhere and say I auto-proclaim myself president of the USA because Trump sucks,what is necessary to understand that everytime that there was a foreign intervention in internal affairs of a country nothing good come from it,look at Lybia,look at Iraq,look in Afghanistan (maybe less in Afghanistan) all these countries became a mess when the world's powers intervened so all the nations involved must be cautious on how to handle the Venezuelan crisis.

In other words Italy is neutral and promote a diplomatic and peaceful solution to the crisis


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## RavenSupreme (Feb 1, 2019)

Saishin said:


> The Italian government do not want to support nor Guaido nor Maduro.
> Italy is in the contact group which include Italy,Germany,France,Spain,UK,Bolivia,Ecuador and at the same time support the principle of dialogue promoted by Mexico and Uruguay among Government and opposition to seek a third way to the Venezuelan crisis,personally I want to see Maduro overthrown and Guaido at the first impression seems ok but from a democratic point of view if we think deeply this support towards someone that auto-proclaimed himself as president is a violation of the rule of law and a dangerous precedent for democracy,since that someone could rise somewhere and say I auto-proclaim president of the USA because Trump sucks,what is necessary to understand that everytime that there was a foreign intervention in internal affairs of a country nothing good come from it,look at Lybia,look at Iraq,look in Afghanistan (maybe less in Afghanistan) all these countries became a mess when the world's powers intervened so the all the nations involved must be caution on how to handle the Venezuelan crisis.
> 
> In other words Italy is neutral and promote a diplomatic and peaceful solution to the crisis



Sometimes just walking with your allies is to be preferred over remaining a neutral stance. And I say this as a German


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 1, 2019)

RavenSupreme said:


> Getting really tired of Italy’s shit to be frank. It’s clear they just want to spite  the eu and appeal to their radical base



I agree with some things the new Goverment has done at least in principle, but this is defending an incompetent leftist "revolutionary" dictator.


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## Saishin (Feb 1, 2019)

RavenSupreme said:


> Sometimes just walking with your allies is to be preferred over remaining a neutral stance. And I say this as a German


Idk,if they want Maduro out this can be achieved only by using force,this mean prepare to fight a civil war and prepare for violence because this is the only way the opposition and the countries that support Guaido will reach their objective,doesn't seem that the top militaries are rebelling against Maduro so untill all the armed forces are with Guaido he will not reach his goal to oust Maduro in a peaceful way using the army as deterrence.

So Germany is ready to support military the opposition? is she ready to take this responsibility?

Italy or to be more specific the M5S wants a change in Venezuela through democratic and fair election without supporting nor Guaido nor Maduro,the movement wants the Venezuelans choose their fate without the angered intervention of foreign players


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## Mider T (Feb 1, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> I never said they did. It was your hypothetical. KEEP UP BANANA!


Yeah if he was picked again its rigged.  He won't win an honest re-election.  Hell his last election was rigged.


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## Trojan (Feb 1, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> *U.S. Push to Oust Venezuela’s Maduro Marks First Shot in Plan to Reshape Latin America*


What do you know about "freedom and democracy"? Kappa


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## Saishin (Feb 1, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> *U.S. Push to Oust Venezuela’s Maduro Marks First Shot in Plan to Reshape Latin America*


They tried already to reshape Latin American by removing their leaders and putting dictators and it didn't go very well


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## Mofo (Feb 1, 2019)

The Italian stance is pretty solid. The EU should just wait and see, they're getting the crumbs regardless of how this pans out .


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## Jagger (Feb 1, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> If Venezuelans pick Maduro, he should be removed? By who?


>he actually believes venezuela has a transparent democratic system and the past elections weren't tampered at all by the current regime

go take your meds, you schizophrenic buffoon


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## Jagger (Feb 1, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Since the 1998 election of Hugo Chávez, the United States has fought to restore control over Venezuela and is vast oil reserves. Chávez’s socialist programs may have redistributed the country’s wealth and helped lift millions out of poverty, but they also earned him a target on his back.


Lmao.



> That year, Guaidó helped lead anti-government rallies after the Venezuelan government declined to to renew the license of Radio Caracas Televisión (RCTV). This privately owned station played a leading role in the 2002 coup against Hugo Chávez. RCTV helped mobilize anti-government demonstrators, falsified information blaming government supporters for acts of violence carried out by opposition members, and banned pro-government reporting amid the coup. The role of RCTV and other oligarch-owned stations in driving the failed coup attempt was chronicled in the acclaimed documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.


Where's the evidence or source all of this is true?
I find it amusing how all the "oligarch-owned stations" were slowly, but successfully replaced by TV/radio stations whose news and information don't concern themselves with the ongoing mass poverty, absurdly high prices, murder rates, decaying infrastructure, etc.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 1, 2019)




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## Jagger (Feb 1, 2019)

You know what Trump has to do? Drop one, or perhaps two, nuke on us. Particularly on the capital.

That way we can get over this bullshit and maybe I could start my own Fallout game irl.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 1, 2019)

Jagger said:


> You know what Trump has to do? Drop one, or perhaps two, nuke on us. Particularly on the capital.
> 
> That way we can get over this bullshit and maybe I could start my own Fallout game irl.


Hey don't be so pessimistic! If the US can control it's bomb fetish, there's a chance your country would just be destroyed with several dead leadership rather than your country being destroyed with several hundred thousand corpses.


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 2, 2019)

Jagger said:


> I find it amusing how all the "oligarch-owned stations" were slowly, but successfully replaced by TV/radio stations whose news and information don't concern themselves with the ongoing mass poverty, absurdly high prices, murder rates, decaying infrastructure, etc.



The fuck do they even talk about ? The weather ?


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## Saishin (Feb 2, 2019)

Jagger said:


> You know what Trump has to do? Drop one, or perhaps two, nuke on us. Particularly on the capital.
> 
> That way we can get over this bullshit and maybe I could start my own Fallout game irl.


Btw how are you? you're Venezuelan,stay safe 


Mofo said:


> The Italian stance is pretty solid. The EU should just wait and see, they're getting the crumbs regardless of how this pans out .


In the proposal by the Euro Parliament to recognized Guaido as interim president Italy was the only country to vote against the recognition


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## Son of Goku (Feb 2, 2019)

Jagger said:


> Lmao.
> 
> 
> Where's the evidence or source all of this is true?
> I find it amusing how all the "oligarch-owned stations" were slowly, but successfully replaced by TV/radio stations whose news and information don't concern themselves with the ongoing mass poverty, absurdly high prices, murder rates, decaying infrastructure, etc.


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## Blue (Feb 2, 2019)

This bit of high school journalism class bullshit was only wrong, not stupid, until it got to this part:


> But this is precisely why Guaidó was selected by Washington: He is not expected to lead Venezuela toward democracy, but to collapse a country that for the past two decades has been a bulwark of resistance to US hegemony. His unlikely rise signals the culmination of a two decades-long project to destroy a robust socialist experiment.


That's full retard. Never go full retard.

How do you get oil (or anything else) from a collapsed country? It's already collapsed. The US has no interest in turning anything into anarchies. We can't buy or sell anything from an anarchy.

Which is why the world is lucky the US has been the global hegemon. Our evil secret plan is to turn all countries into stable free market democracies because that's who gets rich and buys our shit.


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## sworder (Feb 2, 2019)




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## Son of Goku (Feb 2, 2019)




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## Blue (Feb 2, 2019)

God save us from communist latina Drumpf.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 2, 2019)

Blue said:


> This bit of high school journalism class bullshit was only wrong, not stupid, until it got to this part:


I agree. Calling Venezuela a 'robust socialist experiment' seems a 'bit' too optimistic.




> How do you get oil (or anything else) from a collapsed country? It's already collapsed. The US has no interest in turning anything into anarchies. We can't buy or sell anything from an anarchy.
> 
> Which is why the world is lucky the US has been the global hegemon. Our evil secret plan is to turn all countries into stable free market democracies because that's who gets rich and buys our shit.



"That's full retard. Never go full retard."

History is proving you wrong.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 2, 2019)

So after your attempt at trying to pass a bullshit article as proof that the US is trying to destroy the country failed this is what you post? Questions about what members of congress thinks about the President's actions?


----------



## Jagger (Feb 2, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> The fuck do they even talk about ? The weather ?


The content is hilariously pathetic.

You see, their 'news' constitutes on reporting these "cultural events" involving dancing, folkloric musicals, i.e. attempting to stirr up in their viewers' mind this patriotic sentiment to the country. If not, they talk about future proyects, how much they've improved the average citizen's life, or they continously keep up demonizing what they call the 'fourth republic', which is nothing more than the ruling parties before Chavez's coup d'etat and so forth. 

Essentially, they try to indoctrinate the population. It's sad, really.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 2, 2019)

Jagger said:


> The content is hilariously pathetic.
> 
> You see, their 'news' constitutes on reporting these "cultural events" involving dancing, folkloric musicals, i.e. attempting to stirr up in their viewers' mind this patriotic sentiment to the country. If not, they talk about future proyects, how much they've improved the average citizen's life, or they continously keep up demonizing what they call the 'fourth republic', which is nothing more than the ruling parties before Chavez's coup d'etat and so forth.
> 
> Essentially, they try to indoctrinate the population. It's sad, really.


So it's North Korea all over again huh?


----------



## LazyWaka (Feb 2, 2019)

Except here the people are already aware of how the world works as opposed to NK which has left most of it's populace completely in the dark.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 2, 2019)

LazyWaka said:


> Except here the people are already aware of how the world works as opposed to NK which has left most of it's populace completely in the dark.


I've read some articles in the past that said North Koreans are actually aware, or at least becoming aware that they're just being filled with propaganda and that life is better outside NK. I forgot the names of them tho or where I read it.


----------



## Son of Goku (Feb 2, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> So after your attempt at trying to pass a bullshit article as proof that the US is trying to destroy the country failed this is what you post? Questions about what members of congress thinks about the President's actions?


Sure.

I didn't try to pass anything as "proof" though. Just posting stuff you won't find on CNN and co. And since you're so confident that the article is bullshit, I'm assuming you checked the sources provided in the original article, right?


----------



## LazyWaka (Feb 2, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> I've read some articles in the past that said North Koreans are actually aware, or at least becoming aware that they're just being filled with propaganda and that life is better outside NK. I forgot the names of them tho or where I read it.



They are aware that they are being lied to, but they have no idea whats really going on beyond "its got to be better than this".


----------



## Son of Goku (Feb 2, 2019)




----------



## sworder (Feb 2, 2019)

I wasted 10 minutes of my life watching this shit. Nobody else should bother.

Still zero evidence of the correlation between wanting Maduro out and actually causing a destabilization in the country to the point nobody recognizes Maduro as a legitimate president.


----------



## Mider T (Feb 2, 2019)

sworder said:


> I wasted 10 minutes of my life watching this shit. Nobody else should bother.
> 
> Still zero evidence of the correlation between wanting Maduro out and actually causing a destabilization in the country to the point nobody recognizes Maduro as a legitimate president.


SoG is trying to force this narrative pretty hard.


----------



## Orochibuto (Feb 2, 2019)

An active division general just defected to Guaido:


Followed by a Major


----------



## Mider T (Feb 2, 2019)

Looks like he is the commandant of the Military Academy.

But it clearly says the chick is a mayor not a Major.


----------



## Saishin (Feb 2, 2019)

*UN rejects Venezuela’s Guaido, will only cooperate with recognized government of Maduro*

United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres has rejected an aid request by Venezuela’s self-proclaimed “interim president” Juan Guaido, stressing that the body only cooperates with the country’s recognized government led by President Nicolas Maduro.

Stephane Dujarric, a spokesman for Guterres, conveyed the secretary general’s reply to the aid request in a public press briefing on Thursday.

“The United Nations is ready to increase its activities in Venezuela in the areas of humanitarian assistance and development. However, for this, the United Nations needs the consent and the cooperation of the Government,” said Dujarric.


Last week, Guaido published a copy of a letter sent to Guterres requesting UN humanitarian action in Venezuela.

The letter came shortly after Guaido’s self-proclamation as “interim president” of Venezuela, rejecting the presidency of Maduro, who was sworn in earlier after winning an election boycotted by the opposition.

The move by Guaido sparked a political crisis in the country, especially after it was recognized by the United States, which confiscated Venezuelan state assets in America, including a subsidiary of the Venezuelan state oil company, to channel them to Guaido.

There has also been speculation that the US may be preparing for a military invasion of Venezuela in support of Guaido.

'All options on the table'

On Friday, US National Security Adviser John Bolton —  — denied any imminent plans for a US military intervention in Venezuela but declined to rule out the military option altogether. 

“The president said all options are on the table,” Bolton said, referring to an earlier remark by US President Donald Trump.

US Vice President Mike Pence echoed Bolton’s remarks, saying that Maduro had to step down.

Addressing a gathering of pro-opposition Venezuelans in Miami, Pence said “all options are on the table,” and warned Maduro “not to test the resolve of the United States”.

“This is no time for dialogue. This is time for action," he added.

Venezuela would be another Vietnam for America: Maduro

In  published on his Facebook page on Wednesday, Maduro urged the American people to show solidarity with Venezuela and stop their government from getting entangled in another “Vietnam” by invading Venezuela.

“I am appealing to your conscience; I am appealing to your solidarity... if the United States intends to intervene, it will have a Vietnam worse that it can imagine. Let’s not allow violence,” the Venezuelan president said.


Maduro also said that a “global campaign” involving the dissemination of “fake manipulated images” had been launched against his country to justify foreign intervention, calling on Americans not to believe what “media outlets in the United States say.”

“Those who run the empire in the United States want to get their hands on our oil just like they did in Iraq and Libya,” he said.

Italy does not recognize Guaido

Italian Deputy Foreign Minister Manlio Di Stefano made similar remarks on Thursday, warning that the “mistake” that happened in Libya shouldn’t be repeated in Venezuela.

“We must prevent this from happening in Venezuela,” Di Stefano said.

He added that Italy “does not recognize” Guaido as interim president.

Also on Thursday, UN Special Rapporteur on Venezuela Idriss Jazairy, who reports to the Human Rights Council, slammed new US sanctions targeting the Latin American country to weaken and end Maduro’s rule.

“I am especially concerned to hear reports that these sanctions are aimed at changing the government of Venezuela,” said Jazairy, adding that such “coercion” by outside powers “is in violation of all norms of international law.”

“Precipitating an economic and humanitarian crisis…is not a foundation for the peaceful settlement of disputes,” he said.

Maduro has said he is ready to sit at the negotiating table with the opposition to end the political crisis in the country.


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## Mider T (Feb 2, 2019)

Maduro should be addressing his starving people instead of the world.


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## Blue (Feb 2, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Looks like he is the commandant of the Military Academy.
> 
> But it clearly says the chick is a mayor not a Major.



"[HASHTAG]#VenezuelaInTheStreet[/HASHTAG]
The proclamation of Major Raynell Martinez Mujica (Aviation) in support of comrades and subordinates, active General who a few hours ago was recognized by commander in chief by @jguaido"


----------



## Blue (Feb 2, 2019)

> LET US NOT ALLOW ANOTHER VIETNAM WAR IN MY HOMELAND
> 
> People from , I ask for your support in order to reject the interference of Donald Trump's administration which intends to turn my Homeland into a "Vietnam war" in Latin America. Don't allow it!



Okay
there, I'm rejecting it, all of America is rejecting it
congratulations, nothing has changed


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 2, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Looks like he is the commandant of the Military Academy.
> 
> But it clearly says the chick is a mayor not a Major.


What I read on another forum says he's a high command of the Venezuelan air force.


----------



## Mider T (Feb 2, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> What I read on another forum says he's a high command of the Venezuelan air force.


You're right.
https://news.yahoo.com/venezuelan-g...o-132027952.html?soc_src=hl-viewer&soc_trk=tw


----------



## Son of Goku (Feb 2, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Maduro should be addressing his starving people instead of the world.


Oh, so you still recognize him as President? How rebellious of you.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 3, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Interesting how nobody is complaining that Saishin is posting an Iranian state propaganda outlet.


Didn't even know he commented.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Maduro should be addressing his starving people instead of the world.


the American barbaric regime's sanctions... U_U 
they won't be starving (or at the very least not as much?) had it not been for the American regime's sanctions against them...

IIRC, the Americans even stole 17B $ worth of money from them...


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## Blue (Feb 3, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the American barbaric regime's sanctions... U_U
> they won't be starving (or at the very least not as much?) had it not been for the American regime's sanctions against them...
> 
> IIRC, the Americans even stole 17M $ worth of money from them...


----------



## hadou (Feb 3, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the American barbaric regime's sanctions... U_U
> they won't be starving (or at the very least not as much?) had it not been for the American regime's sanctions against them...
> 
> IIRC, the Americans even stole 17B $ worth of money from them...


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2019)

Why aren't the mercenaries in Washington given them their own money for the oil they got? U_U


----------



## Blue (Feb 3, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Why aren't the mercenaries in Washington given them their own money for the oil they got? U_U


u wot m8


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 3, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Looks like he is the commandant of the Military Academy.
> 
> But it clearly says the chick is a mayor not a Major.



You should at least check google translator before you try to disagree on a post that is in a language you don't speak.


----------



## Mider T (Feb 3, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the American barbaric regime's sanctions... U_U
> they won't be starving (or at the very least not as much?) had it not been for the American regime's sanctions against them...
> 
> IIRC, the Americans even stole 17B $ worth of money from them...


Venezuela's inflation is the fault of Maduro's asinine economic policies, not our sanctions.  There's no reason why as a petrostate Venezuela shouldn't be the richest South American country.


----------



## Saishin (Feb 3, 2019)




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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 3, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Venezuela's inflation is the fault of Maduro's asinine economic policies, not our sanctions.  There's no reason why as a petrostate Venezuela shouldn't be the richest South American country.



It's probably a bit of both. You can't pretend sanctions don't affect the economy, that's the entire point of them.

And there is a third factor you are ignoring. Oil prices aren't the same they used to be during Chavez days.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 3, 2019)

These days I've come to the conclusion Venezuela's crisis can't be explained by a single thing. If you see someone trying to do that, they are trying to fit it in an agenda.

That said, Maduro is a dictator, and dictators should be removed, regardlessly of economics.


----------



## San Juan Wolf (Feb 3, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> These days I've come to the conclusion Venezuela's crisis can't be explained by a single thing. If you see someone trying to do that, they are trying to fit it in an agenda.
> 
> That said, Maduro is a dictator, and dictators should be removed, regardlessly of economics.



Maduro demanded bakers use 90 % of the flower, which they often couldn't even provide, to sell bread at goverment regulated prices at which the bakery couldn't make a profit, on pain of arrest and expropriation of their business, which did happen.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/17/bakers-arrested-illegal-brownies-venezuela-bread-war

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-hyper-inflation-currency-flour-a7641756.html

 traps atmospheric gas



> During this week’s inspections, two men were arrested as their bakery was using too much wheat in sweet bread, ham-filled croissants and other products, the state superintendency of fair prices said in a statement sent to media on Thursday.





> “We're going to distribute bread at a much cheaper price and in larger quantities than before,” said Jose Enrique Solorzano, who heads the socialist committee that assumed control of Mansion's. *“It's no longer going to be about the exploited and exploiter, no more boss and chief. We're all going to become productive, living and producing in equality.”*





> Coelho defends bakers against Maduro's accusations of flour hoarding. He explains that due to price controls, bread must be sold at a loss — for about 20 U.S. cents per loaf. So, like other bakery owners, he reserves some flour for pizza and pastries that he can sell at market prices to help keep his business afloat.



>Demanding 90 % of wheat used on something they have to sell at a loss, in an economy with rampant hyperinflation

You sure about that "Maduro isn't the cause the economy is shit" ?


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## Blue (Feb 3, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> It's probably a bit of both. You can't pretend sanctions don't affect the economy, that's the entire point of them.
> 
> And there is a third factor you are ignoring. Oil prices aren't the same they used to be during Chavez days.


Sanctions on the economy were put in place like two weeks ago.

Up until then the 'sanctions' were just keeping Venezuelan government officials - specific ones - from accessing their bank accounts.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 4, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> You sure about that "Maduro isn't the cause the economy is shit" ?



I didn't say that.

Again, I said there can't be just one factor.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 4, 2019)

One of the reasons Venezuela is such a touchy subject nowadays is that both sides are right.

The left wants to focus on the sanctions. The right wants to focus on Maduro's mismanagement of the economy. And neither side mentions the fall in oil price because that doesn't allow for anyone to be blamed.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 4, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> I didn't say that.
> 
> Again, I said there can't be just one factor.


Yea, it's two factors, terrible economic management and Maduro.


----------



## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 4, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Yea, it's two factors, terrible economic management and Maduro.



If you want to pretend a change in oil prices or sanctions didn't affect them, you are also limiting your view to fulfill an agenda.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 4, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> If you want to pretend a change in oil prices or sanctions didn't affect them, you are also limiting your view to fulfill an agenda.


Terrible economic management is what I've said, it's their fault for binding their economy so closely to oil, or perhaps economic management isn't the right term for that failure?. Sanctions? As Blue said, sanctions were only added like 1 week ago, inform me on how the oil sanctions that was enacted 1 week ago managed to destroy their economy several years-months in the past?


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## Blue (Feb 4, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> If you want to pretend a change in oil prices or sanctions didn't affect them, you are also limiting your view to fulfill an agenda.


A change in oil prices is one thing
sanctions on the economy are another

Oil prices existed
Sanctions did not until this year

Venezuela survived as long as it did because oil prices were astronomical. When they tanks, the house of cards came down, and is now hopelessly ruined even with oil prices back up significantly.


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## Mofo (Feb 4, 2019)

Prices went up because, among many other things, Venezuelan output went down.


----------



## Skaddix (Feb 4, 2019)

Well this is the problem with having your entire economy dependent on one Sector.


----------



## Mofo (Feb 4, 2019)




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## Skaddix (Feb 4, 2019)

I mean the reason the economy went to shit isn't specifically right or left. Nor is the solution diversify the economy but even if Maduro had started diversifying as soon as he got into power he is unlikely to have gotten far enough to make any difference.

But again the primary US motivation is not Human Rights, its Oil Access. We got no problem working with Dictators.


----------



## Saishin (Feb 4, 2019)

*Italy blocks EU statement on recognizing Venezuela's Guaido*

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Italy on Monday blocked a joint European Union position to recognize Venezuela’s National Assembly head Juan Guaido as interim president, diplomatic sources said.

EU states have been debating for days how to address the Venezuela crisis, with ten countries recognizing the opposition leader after the expiry of a deadline for President Nicolas Maduro to call a new election.

Some EU members are nervous about setting a precedent of recognizing a self-proclaimed leader.


Italy blocked a draft EU statement that would have made it clear that recognition was a national prerogative.

“Individual EU Member States will acknowledge Mr. Juan Guaidó, President of the National Assembly, as President ad interim of Venezuela,” the proposed joint statement said, calling for “free, fair and democratic presidential elections.”


Italy is not alone in opposing recognizing Guaido.

Asked in Brussels on Monday whether Ireland would follow other major EU nations in recognizing him, Ireland’s Foreign Minister Simon Coveney told reporters: “No, our position has been clear. We want to see free and fair elections for the people to make a democratic decision in Venezuela.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...izing-venezuelas-guaido-sources-idUSKCN1PT1G2

*Venezuela's Guaido says he wants Italy's backing*

ROME (Reuters) - Venezuela’s opposition leader Juan Guaido said in a newspaper interview published on Monday he would do all he could to secure Italy’s backing after the government split on whether to recognize him as interim president.

As nine European nations expressed support for Guaido on Monday, challenging Nicolas Maduro’s socialist rule, Italy was silent due to a split within the coalition government.


“We’ll do everything possible so that the Italian government adds its support - which is very important for us - to that expressed by the rest of the European Union,” Guaido told the Corriere della Sera newspaper.

Italian President Sergio Mattarella, who plays a mainly ceremonial role and usually stays out of day-to-day politics, urged the government to hammer out its differences and express support for Guaido.


“We must demonstrate responsibility and clarity with a common line taken by all our EU partners and allies,” Mattarella said at an event in Rome on Monday.

Venezuelans of Italian origin are a large and influential group in the South American country.

“Handing out ultimatums, sanctions, freezing Venezuelan goods ... It would mean opening the road to a military intervention,” said Alessandro Di Battista, a prominent figure in the 5-Star Movement, which makes up half of the ruling coalition.

“The 5-Star Movement and this government will never recognize people who appoint themselves president,” he added.

5-Star’s governing partner, the League, has come out strongly in favor of Guaido.

“Maduro is one of the last leftist dictators left, and he governs with the use of force and is starving his people. The hope is that there will be free elections as soon as possible,” League leader Matteo Salvini said in a statement on Monday.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-italy-idUSKCN1PT15G


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 4, 2019)

Saishin said:


> 5-Star’s governing partner, the League, has come out strongly in favor of Guaido.


So it seems there's a split.


----------



## Saishin (Feb 4, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> So it seems there's a split.


Yeah the League supports Guaido but since there isn't an unanimous position of the two major parties forming the government it prevails the line of neutrality (which is more the line of the M5S) in few words as I said in a previous post Italy asks for new election without backing nor Guaido nor Maduro,they ask first national election before recognize anyone as president,they are not going to recognize someone that self-proclaimed himself as the head of government

European countries that do not recognize Guaido as interim president

Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Ireland
Estonia
Luxembourg
Malta
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Serbia


----------



## Pliskin (Feb 4, 2019)

Saishin said:


> Yeah the League supports Guaido but since there isn't an unanimous position of the two major parties forming the government it prevails the line of neutrality (which is more the line of the M5S) in few words as I said in a previous post Italy asks for new election without backing nor Guaido nor Maduro
> 
> European countries that do not recognize Guaido as interim president
> 
> ...



Motion to declare Italy a part of Eastern Europe


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## Saishin (Feb 4, 2019)

Pliskin said:


> Motion to declare Italy a part of Eastern Europe


Tomorrow I will self-proclaim myself as chancellor of Germany,I will give an ultimatum to the German state to hold new election because the German people are unhappy with Merkel 

You're welcome to self-proclaim yourself president of Italy 

Interesting


----------



## Blue (Feb 4, 2019)

Saishin said:


> Tomorrow I will self-proclaim myself as chancellor of Germany,I will give an ultimatum to the German state to hold new election because the German people are unhappy with Merkel


Guaidó is not only Venezuelan, but he was elected to the presidency of the National Assembly of Venezuela.

If you assume that Maduro is not legitimate - which he obviously is not - then Guaidó is the actual, legitimate president.

Nice false equivalence, tho.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 4, 2019)

Blue said:


> Guaidó is not only Venezuelan, but he was elected to the presidency of the National Assembly of Venezuela.
> 
> If you assume that Maduro is not legitimate - which he obviously is not - then Guaidó is the actual, legitimate president.
> 
> Nice false equivalence, tho.


To settle this, we should have a UN vote to declare Guiado or Maduro legitimate, or a third option: Elections with UN supervision.


----------



## Blue (Feb 4, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> To settle this, we should have a UN vote to declare Guiado or Maduro legitimate, or a third option: Elections with UN supervision.


Fair elections is exactly what the opposition has been demanding for years.

Maduro will not and has not let that happen.

The only way you'll force Maduro to call fair elections is military intervention.
So I don't see the value in this approach. Since in reality nobody is going to intervene militarily, all that will result is the Venezuelan people continuing to suffer while Maduro promises elections that never come, and then we're back where are are right now a year or two from now.


----------



## MrGayNight (Feb 4, 2019)

Blue said:


> The only way you'll force Maduro to call fair elections is military intervention.
> So I don't see the value in this approach. Since in reality nobody is going to intervene militarily, all that will result is the Venezuelan people continuing to suffer while Maduro promises elections that never come, and then we're back where are are right now a year or two from now.


Yeah, I made that suggestion so that everyone could shift the blame of military intervention to the UN. They have their "peacekeepers", and I think Venezuela is in such a crisis that would warrant them being there, everyone else can just use them as a scapegoat.


----------



## Son of Goku (Feb 4, 2019)

* Venezuela crisis is the hidden consequence of Saudi Arabia’s oil price war *
August 8, 2017 2.32pm BST Updated August 10, 2017 5.18pm BST



Venezuela is sinking ever deeper into a political and economic calamity. Inflation is above 700% and GDP is more than a third below 2013 levels. The country with the world’s largest proven oil reserves is now the world’s most indebted country – no other nation has a larger public external debt as a share of GDP or of exports. Living standards have truly collapsed.

Many factors have contributed to Venezuela’s current crisis including mismanagement of oil wealth by former president Hugo Chavez and the current leader, Nicolás Maduro, and criminality, lawlessness and the black market.

While all of these have undoubtedly had a part to play,* the falling price of oil is the most significant factor.* However the connection between this and an economic crisis in South America is not as obvious. What’s going on in Venezuela is the unintended consequence of Saudi Arabia’s policy of keeping oil prices deliberately low for political reasons.


Happier times: oil workers cheer then-president Hugo Chavez on a visit to an oil field in 2012. Miguel Guttierrez / EPA

The price of oil, as with any other commodity, is regulated through supply and demand. When there is an oil surplus, or a reduction in demand, the price will fall. 

At the start of 2014 the global supply and demand for oil was fairly balanced, at around 92m barrels a day. But production started to escalate thereafter, and by late 2015 the average daily supply reached 97m barrels, more than a million barrels per day ahead of demand. This surplus caused a sharp drop in the price of oil.

Part of this increase in supply was from American shale oil, extracted through fracking, but mostly it was the result of the Saudis deliberately pumping large amounts of oil for political reasons. As the only oil-producing country with sufficient reserves to regulate the market in this way, Saudi Arabia is considered the “swing producer”. Even though US shale production has reduced some of the Saudis’s swing power, the oil kingdom has still the capacity to produce more than it does currently and is therefore still very much capable of crashing the market. 

*Taking on America and Iran*

It seems the Saudis are trying to achieve two aims. The first is to drive US shale producers out of business and consolidate the Gulf state’s leading role in global oil. Producing oil from shale via fracking is expensive, around US$60 a barrel, while the cost of natural oil is no higher than US$7 a barrel. Saudi Arabia hopes the drastic decrease in oil prices, to well below US$60 a barrel, will make it unprofitable for American shale producers to drill at their current rates.


Fracking in Colorado. Oil released by this rig can’t compete with cheap Saudi oil. Jon Mullen/Shutterstock

The second aim is to destroy the economy of Iran, the Saudi kingdom’s main competitor in the Middle East. This would thus limit Tehran’s ability to continue funnelling hundreds of millions each year to the Syrian regime, and Shia militias in Iraq, Yemen and elsewhere. 

Oil markets have always been at the heart of the Saudi-Iranian struggle for regional hegemony. Back in 1977, when Iran was planning extensive nuclear power plants and envisaging the spread of its influence throughout the Middle East, the Saudi regime swamped the markets, expanding oil production from 8m to almost 12m barrels a day, sharply cutting the oil prices.
Iran watched billions of dollars in anticipated oil revenues vanish, and the Shah was forced to abandon his plans for nuclear investment. Manufacturing collapsed, inflation skyrocketed, unemployment rose steeply – and before long economic troubles had destroyed all support for the Iranian monarchy. The rest is history: the regime collapsed in two years and was replaced by Ayatollah Khomeini’s Islamic republic.

*An oil alliance*

*It seems, after some hesitation and discussions in the early part of 2014, Saudi Arabia launched this oil price war in tandem with the US.* *America supported the policy as it wanted to undermine the influence of oil-dependent Russia, something it apparently considered more important than supporting its own fracking sector, while access to cheap imported oil is good news for US consumers and industry in general. Whether or not there was a clearly planned and agreed strategy, there seems to be an unmistakable convergence of interests between the Saudi and US positions.*

This strategy of keeping the price of oil down has not necessarily destroyed either the Russian or Iranian economies however. Instead, the hardest hit oil-producing nations are in South America and Africa, where petro-states such as Libya, Angola, and Nigeria are suffering. 

But the worst affected country of all is Venezuela, the most disastrously oil-dependent state in the world. Oil accounts for 96% of exports and more than 40% of government revenues.

It is still unclear whether the Saudi-US oil price strategy will ever achieve its main goal of crushing Russian and Iranian power and influence. But one thing is clear: the world oil market will continue to be extremely volatile, and smaller, less powerful nations will continue to be caught up in the wider battle.


----------



## Blue (Feb 4, 2019)

> At the start of 2014 the global supply and demand for oil was fairly balanced, at around 92m barrels a day. But production started to escalate thereafter, and by late 2015 the average daily supply reached 97m barrels, more than a million barrels per day ahead of demand. This surplus caused a sharp drop in the price of oil.
> 
> Part of this increase in supply was from American shale oil, extracted through fracking, but mostly it was the result of the Saudis deliberately pumping large amounts of oil for political reasons


Total bullshit. It was ALL from American shale oil, and the Saudis kept up production through an oil glut, not for political reasons, but for economic ones - they wanted American shale drillers run out of business.

it didn't work out for them.


----------



## Son of Goku (Feb 4, 2019)

Blue said:


> Total bullshit. It was ALL from American shale oil, and the Saudis kept up production through an oil glut, *not for political reasons, *but for economic ones - they wanted American shale drillers run out of business.
> 
> it didn't work out for them.


What are basing this on, other than your imagined expertise?


----------



## Blue (Feb 4, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> What are basing this on, other than your imagined expertise?


Hardly imagined.



etc etc etc there are 20 thousand million writeups on this, don't make me bother using Google's advanced search to find more


----------



## Saishin (Feb 5, 2019)

Btw also Norway at the moment do not recognize Guaido while Poland just yesterday decided to back him


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## Prince Vegeta (Feb 5, 2019)

Dont feel like reading 6 pages

But what exactly is going on in Venezuela and why is America trying to get involved?

Does Venezuela threaten to use nuclear weapons like Northern Korea?

Do they have terrorists?

Or is it just another attempt to suck more oil from another country?


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## MrGayNight (Feb 5, 2019)

Prince Vegeta said:


> Dont feel like reading 6 pages
> 
> But what exactly is going on in Venezuela and why is America trying to get involved?
> 
> ...


IIRC...Venezuela suddenly turned from prosperous nation to massive socialist shithole that's causing a refugee crisis in southern america and there is also reports that pirates from Venezuela are in the Caribbean and even the military are stealing shit from neighboring nations. After Maduro's election was confirmed illegitimate, the National Assembly appointed his opposition as leader, and that guy went on a road trip to get a lot of other countries to back his leadership.

TL;DR: While Venezuela is not trying to antagonize the US, it's a North Korea that's exporting pirates to the Caribbean and annoying everyone else.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

Prince Vegeta said:


> Dont feel like reading 6 pages
> 
> But what exactly is going on in Venezuela and why is America trying to get involved?
> 
> ...



It's always an attempt to suck oil from another country, but the country in question is doing itself no favors by censoring the press and opposition parties, and managing its economy like shit.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> It's always an attempt to suck oil from another country, but the country in question is doing itself no favors by censoring the press and opposition parties, and managing its economy like shit.


Do you have any proof that it's for the oil?


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Do you have any proof that it's for the oil?



I mean read the last 200 years of human history.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

If not for oil then why isn't the world cracking down on the other 100 or so dictatorships that exist?

Sure most of them aren't shitting the bed as hard as Venezuela, but Venezuela was getting bashed and threatened with international intervention early at the Chavez government. When the economy was doing fine.

It's the oil.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 5, 2019)

Ok so your proof is asking me to read 200 years of history, whataboutism, and Bush?


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Ok so your proof is asking me to read 200 years of history, whataboutism, and Bush?



I don't have proof. What do you think I am, a lawyer? This is a fucking anime forum.

I'm saying it's obvious it's because of oil, and if you don't agree, feel free to ignore my posts.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

Almost every war of the 20th and 21th centuries had oil involved. Even WW2 was fought for control of the oil.

It's always oil.

Venezuela has been pissing USA off for 20 years. Because they are denying them oil. And now USA has a chance to finally take the oil back.


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## stream (Feb 5, 2019)

The price of oil has largely been responsible for triggering the crisis; but the crisis was going to happen no matter what. The economy of Venezuela was already destroyed and propped up by oil, so it was just a matter of time until it would fall. The way I see it, incompetence led them to this place, and incompetence made the crisis worse.

I've said a couple of time before: Venezuela can only get out of their hole with international intervention, and the sooner it happens the better.


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## Prince Vegeta (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> It's always an attempt to suck oil from another country, but the country in question is doing itself no favors by censoring the press and opposition parties, and managing its economy like shit.


Yah but when shit happens  inside US does Venezuela get involved ?


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## Blue (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> If not for oil then why isn't the world cracking down on the other 100 or so dictatorships that exist?
> 
> Sure most of them aren't shitting the bed as hard as Venezuela, but Venezuela was getting bashed and threatened with international intervention early at the Chavez government. When the economy was doing fine.
> 
> It's the oil.


Because their people aren't starving in a socialist hellhole.

The US genuinely, actually, demonstrably, does not give a shit about oil. From a stealing-it standpoint, we literally never did. Back 10 years or more ago, we did care about making sure that oil gets to market. Whether that market was China or Europe or the US didn't matter, what mattered was keeping the price of oil reasonable.

Today OPEC has been broken and the US is the world's largest oil producer, so one country or two shutting off oil production doesn't matter. If we cared about oil still we'd let Iran pump theirs which is what we did in the past, we put sanctions on everything - except oil, because we're SO NICE we'll let them make some oil money. Acted generous but actually we wanted their oil on the market.

Not anymore.


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## Mider T (Feb 5, 2019)

Prince Vegeta said:


> Dont feel like reading 6 pages
> 
> But what exactly is going on in Venezuela and why is America trying to get involved?
> 
> ...


You should probably read :/


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## Saishin (Feb 5, 2019)

Blue said:


> Guaidó is not only Venezuelan, but he was elected to the presidency of the National Assembly of Venezuela.
> 
> If you assume that Maduro is not legitimate - which he obviously is not - then Guaidó is the actual, legitimate president.
> 
> Nice false equivalence, tho.


According to those that back him he's respecting the constitution since there is an article that legitimate Guaido as president of the assembly to take the precidency in case the current president manifests acts that goes against the constitutional principles and thus they say that his auto-proclaimation is justified and legitimated by the constitutional rules  so it's not a coup d'etat,nevertheless the intervention of foreign powers to force Maduro out is a violation of the rule of law of a sovereign country,this is an internal political matter that only the Venezuelans must solve,the international community should only intervene to aid the Venezuelan people for humanitarian purposes and yes pressure Maduro to surrender but backing the leader of the opposition over the head of state is wrong.

They are setting a very dangerous precedence because at this point imagine if since the yellow vests are protesting against Macron then tomorrow Russia and China or anyone else may say we back the leader of the yellow vests as the legitimate president of France because Macron doesn't represent anymore the people's will we give him 8 days to go out or we'll take measures,what's the point of national sovereignty if someday a foreign power may say the leader that you have is a dictator and must go.

The EU as usual without thinking the consequences are following like a faithful dog the USA in this madness,this is hypocricy at its finest since the EU always boast herself as a bastion of the rule of law and democracy.Why America or the EU is not doing the same thing with other dictatorships around the world? why Venezuela so suddenly? because there are economical interests since it is a land rich of oil,untill a couple of days ago no one gave a fuck on the situation of the Venezuelans.

I'm happy that Italy along with few EU countries decided no to back Guaido (at least for now) and not to follow America,they do not back Maduro either but they belong to the third side that first of all demand fair election without interfere directly in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation rather be mediators for a diplomatic solution.These countries are the only ones that are using comon sense.
Also no one do nothing for nothing I wonder what the USA have promised or what those countries that have backed Guaido so speedily expect to gain from this crisis,are they doing for economical gain because oil? are they waiting to share the spoil of war which is Venezuela?


MrGayNight said:


> IIRC...Venezuela suddenly turned from *prosperous nation* to massive socialist shithole that's causing a refugee crisis in southern america and there is also reports that pirates from Venezuela are in the Caribbean and even the military are stealing shit from neighboring nations. After Maduro's election was confirmed illegitimate, the National Assembly appointed his opposition as leader, and that guy went on a road trip to get a lot of other countries to back his leadership.
> 
> TL;DR: While Venezuela is not trying to antagonize the US, it's a North Korea that's exporting pirates to the Caribbean and annoying everyone else.


You're wrong if you think that Venezuela was a prosperous country before Chavez,it was a third world country then and it is now.
Let's not forget that Venezuela was under a dictatorship and after the end of it still most of the Venezuelans lived in poverty especially in the country side,in fact the success of Chavez was because the lower class untill then lived in dire conditions exploited by the well being class and thus voted for him,Chavez and this do not justify his administration did something good for them at least at the beginning with some policies to help the poor that's why chavism is very popular among the lower class in fact most of the Venezuelans that support Guaido are from the middle and rich class ( of course for sure there are also people from the lower class that are backing Guaido at this point is irrelevant if you are rich,middle,lower class since now everybody are suffering but this is needed to understand why Venezuela embraced Chavism back then and to understand the current situation) that with the rise of Chavez saw their influence under threat.Guaido himself belong to a middle class family (and nothing wrong with that,it's not important your origins if you are a good and honest person,let's be clear on this)


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## Prince Vegeta (Feb 5, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You should probably read :/


You read and explain what's going on.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 5, 2019)

Saishin said:


> You're wrong if you think that Venezuela was a prosperous country before Chavez,it was a third world country then and it is now.


By 'prosperous' I meant what would be so in south america, better than Colombia but still bad compared to the US.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> Almost every war of the 20th and 21th centuries had oil involved. Even WW2 was fought for control of the oil.
> 
> It's always oil.
> 
> Venezuela has been pissing USA off for 20 years. Because they are denying them oil. And now USA has a chance to finally take the oil back.


Except that is completely false. Venezuelan oil is literally worthless, from a monetary standpoint (low gas and oil prices means zero demand for it), and from a quality standpoint (it's shit in engines and heating). So the argument you're proposing is completely false, especially since the US now is oil self sufficient.


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## Blue (Feb 5, 2019)

Saishin said:


> They are setting a very dangerous precedence because at this point imagine if since the yellow vests are protesting against Macron then tomorrow Russia and China or anyone else may say we back the leader of the yellow vests as the legitimate president of France because Macron doesn't represent anymore the people's will we give him 8 days to go out or we'll take measures,what's the point of national sovereignty if someday a foreign power may say the leader that you have is a dictator and must go.


What if I think Macron *should* go? 



> The EU as usual without thinking the consequences are following like a faithful dog the USA in this madness,this is hypocricy at its finest since the EU always boast herself as a bastion of the rule of law and democracy.Why America or the EU is not doing the same thing with other dictatorships around the world? why Venezuela so suddenly? because there are economical interests since it is a land rich of oil,untill a couple of days ago no one gave a fuck on the situation of the Venezuelans.


Again, nobody cares about the oil. Like Saiyaman just said, it's shit oil and we don't need it. At all. 
It's because people are literally starving to death. Wake me when France faces 2000000% inflation and starvation.



> I'm happy that Italy along with other EU countries decided no to back Guaido (at least for now) and not to follow America,they do not back Maduro either but they belong to the third side that first of all demand fair election without interfere directly in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation rather be mediators for a diplomatic solution.These countries are the only ones that are using comon sense.
> Also no one do nothing for nothing I wonder what the USA have promised or what those countries that have backed Guaido so speedily expect to gain from this crisis,are they doing for economical gain because oil? are they waiting to share the spoil of war which is Venezuela?


Or maybe it's the right thing to do? Did that occur to you as a possibility? At all?

Because the idea that maybe this is a coup attempt orchestrated by the US occurred to me months ago, and I investigated, and found it nonsensical. Here, take a look at US aircraft carrier battle groups:



Notice how there isn't a single one nearby, and almost all of them are in port?

That would never, ever happen if we were planning any kind of military intervention. If anything was going to happen militarily in the next 6 months, there would be a carrier, probably two, already there.

The US, along with Canada, Japan, Australia, and most of the EU is simply , my dude.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except that is completely false. Venezuelan oil is literally worthless, from a monetary standpoint (low gas and oil prices means zero demand for it), and from a quality standpoint (it's shit in engines and heating). So the argument you're proposing is completely false, especially since the US now is oil self sufficient.



So all the money Venezuela got from selling oil in the past century was because other countries were too dumb to know their oil was bad?

Please.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> So all the money Venezuela got from selling oil in the past century was because other countries were too dumb to know their oil was bad?
> 
> Please.


It's because there was no other choice. When Venezuela was booming, OPEC had an oil embargo going on, or more recently, Bush Jr.'s decisions in the Middle East made gas and oil prices sky high. When oil prices are high, Venezuela oil is worth something, when it's low, it's worthless. Add to the fact the USA has become oil self-sufficient, exporting more oil than importing, means there is no market for low quality Venezuelan Oil. It's why Venezuela crashed hard.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It's because there was no other choice. When Venezuela was booming, OPEC had an oil embargo going on, or more recently, Bush Jr.'s decisions in the Middle East made gas and oil prices sky high. When oil prices are high, Venezuela oil is worth something, when it's low, it's worthless. Add to the fact the USA has become oil self-sufficient, exporting more oil than importing, means there is no market for low quality Venezuelan Oil. It's why Venezuela crashed hard.



I know they crashed hard for that, but to pretend foreign countries are not interested in owning Venezuela's oil is naivete.

Everyone is interested in oil. All the time.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> I know they crashed hard for that, but to pretend foreign countries are not interested in owning Venezuela's oil is naivete.
> 
> Everyone is interested in oil. All the time.


They're interested in quality oil, not the low quality oil under Venezuela. Venezuelan oil is not selling since there are far better alternatives that don't have the refineries charging an arm and leg to get the oil Venezuela produces usable.


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## Blue (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> I know they crashed hard for that, but to pretend foreign countries are not interested in owning Venezuela's oil is naivete.
> 
> Everyone is interested in oil. All the time.


Okay picture this: Venezuelan bananas. Are they worth something? Yes.
Does anyone care if they have to buy Guatemalan bananas instead? No.

The United States has more oil than god. Canada also has more oil than god. Oil is bananas.


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## Mofo (Feb 5, 2019)

Yes, now imagine if you were both  the world's second largest importer of bananas   and the world's largest crude bananas producer. Suddenly you find yourself with the possibility of acquiring the world's largest banana plantation, one so big that combined with your current output would allow you to corner  the market for bananas, regardless of what  those other pesky producers - which you've been relying on for  years   and have been  quite whimsical - might do.  Furthermore, that would inure your position to whatever  strategy the  other market participants may take.


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## Blue (Feb 5, 2019)

Mofo said:


> Yes, now imagine if you were both  the world's second largest importer of bananas   and the world's largest crude bananas producer. Suddenly you find yourself with the possibility of acquiring the world's largest banana plantation, one so big that combined with your current output would allow you to corner market the for bananas despite those other pesky producers you've been relying on for  years and have been whimsical. Inuring your position to whatever  strategy the  other market participants may take.


Except unlike socialist shitholes, the United States government does not own anything, so taking over those 'banana plantations' would only allow private companies, most of which wouldn't even be American, to move in and start selling bananas. I have acquired nothing but an expensive war. 

If Venezuela was the only source of bananas and was selling them for 300 dollars a kilo, then yes, I might want to "liberate" a few banana plantations and let private industry move in and sell them at market rates.

But it's not.


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## Mofo (Feb 5, 2019)

The Government of the United States owns a lot of bananas actually. In fact it  owns the largest emergency bananas storage in the world. Furthermore, the Fed  is quite active on the bananas markets,  managing and observing  the price of bananas through the year. After all, it  is of utmost importance  to  avoid  and stymie external shocks and  keep tight reins on inflation expectations.
Energy policy is central to every government in the world,  and in fact cooperation between energy corporations and governments  is the praxis. You need to be blind to not realize why all  those bananas are  a strategic priority for US interests.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 5, 2019)




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## Lord Stark (Feb 5, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> I don't have proof. What do you think I am, a lawyer? This is a fucking anime forum.



 I'm dead.


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## makeoutparadise (Feb 6, 2019)




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## Mider T (Feb 6, 2019)

Mofo said:


> The Government of the United States owns a lot of bananas actually. In fact it  owns the largest emergency bananas storage in the world. Furthermore, the Fed  is quite active on the bananas markets,  managing and observing  the price of bananas through the year. After all, it  is of utmost importance  to  avoid  and stymie external shocks and  keep tight reins on inflation expectations.
> Energy policy is central to every government in the world,  and in fact cooperation between energy corporations and governments  is the praxis. You need to be blind to not realize why all  those bananas are  a strategic priority for US interests.


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## Saishin (Feb 6, 2019)

Blue said:


> What if I think Macron *should* go?


Don't know but you can proclaim yourself president of France 



> Again, nobody cares about the oil. Like Saiyaman just said, it's shit oil and we don't need it. At all.
> It's because people are literally starving to death. Wake me when France faces 2000000% inflation and starvation.


Suuuure,oil is oil no matter what



> Or maybe it's the right thing to do? Did that occur to you as a possibility? At all?


Right thing? when the US intervene in the name of democracy is never the right thing,the Americans have showed only to create disasters when it meddled into the affairs of third countries.

Then why didn't you intervened in NK,in Yemen,in the Rohingya crisis or in Zimbabwe,where was the solidarity of the US and EU and the all democratic rethoric for these countries? what are you waiting for to overthrow the other dictators?



> Because the idea that maybe this is a coup attempt orchestrated by the US occurred to me months ago, and I investigated, and found it nonsensical. Here, take a look at US aircraft carrier battle groups:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CVN 72 is nearby to Venezuela 


> The US, along with Canada, Japan, Australia, and most of the EU is simply , my dude.


Remove Japan,its government stated that will be neutral on this affair


*EU states fold like cheap tents to US demands on Venezuela, Italy one of few to stay independent*


*Protestors demonstrate solidarity for president of Venezuela Nicolas Maduro against the external interference of USA and their allies in front of the Venezuelan Embassy, January 26, 2019, Rome, Italy *

As the former British prime minister Harold Macmillan would have put it, "It's not one damned thing, it's one damned thing after another."

For the European Union, Italy has become that turbulent priest of whom they wish they could be rid, the fly in the ointment, the spanner in the works of neo-liberalism and war. If this is what they mean by "_populism_," it's little wonder that all roads increasingly lead to Rome.

There were sanctions on Russia, the flow of refugees from wars declared and waged by others, austerity budgets, and now the comic-opera farce of the recognition of Super-Bowl winner Juan Guaido as president of Venezuela. He didn't really win the Super Bowl of course; in fact he didn't even take part. But then he didn't take part in the internationally recognized presidential election in Venezuela either. On all these matters, Italy has resisted alignment with both Brussels and Washington, and has become probably the most independent country left in Europe.

The anti-establishment Five Star Movement and the Lega (formerly the Lega Nord, or 'Northern League') seemed strange bedfellows when they took power in Italy – could a left-wing, grass-roots movement really co-exist in government with a right-wing League?

So far so good. Neither believes that endless confrontation with Russia is in Italy's best interests, and so their government has been increasingly reluctant to sign up to successive waves of anti-Russian sanctions.

Despite liberal howls in countries far enough away from the endless flow of refugees fleeing war, famine, pestilence and disease in Africa, the Balkans, and the Middle-East; Italy has point-blank refused to be left holding the babies. They didn't lead the attack on Libya – that was overwhelmingly an Anglo-French affair – so why should they pay most of the price of the human misery which has resulted? The Italian government didn't attack  either. And, notwithstanding their shocking colonialist past in Africa, it is their past and not their present.

Italy is expected to absorb (in its poorest southern regions at that) hundreds of thousands of the poor and the wretched coming across the Med. Meanwhile, countries like France and Britain – up to their necks in most (France) or all (Britain) of the international crimes that caused this epic movement of people – squabble over accepting a few thousand.

The Italian coalition government has fought hard to keep its promises, having been elected on a program to end austerity, to halt the domestic crime of the poorest Italians, paying the price of the crimes and blunders of the richest. They have driven a coach and horses through the EU’s austerity fiscal rules, a smaller coach with fewer horses than they tried at first, but a demonstrable breach nonetheless, which will reward the Italian poor with income support, known as “_the citizens' income,_” and pensioners with a lower retirement age, creating job opportunities for the teeming ranks of the young unemployed. The EU threatened them with a Greek-style bruising (whilst turning a Nelson's eye to Macron showering euros down the Champs Elysee trying to buy off the Yellow Vest movement in an even more egregious breach of the rules) but backed away with a compromise which still left Rome with a substantial victory.

Incidentally, the Italian government was the only EU government to denounce Macron's handling of the Yellow Vest crisis in France. Angered, Paris hit back, telling Italian politicians to "_learn to sweep their own doorstep._"

However, Rome has  a war of words with President Macron in a quite unprecedented breach of EU and NATO solidarity.

And now Venezuela.

"_We don't need another Libya, this time in Latin America_," says Rome, with its first-hand experience of the disaster in North Africa to guide it. "_We cannot accept this gross interference in the internal affairs of others,_" they say. "_This is the principle of non-interference enshrined in the United Nations Charter_," they insist, while most other EU states fold around them like cheap tents to the demands of Trump, Bolton and Elliott Abrams.

It is astounding, given the pious chorus of liberal disapproval towards Donald Trump, that the European Union and now at least half of its member states asked only "_how high?_" when the US leader told them to jump to the exotic novelty of endorsing self-appointed presidencies picked by foreign countries. It's presumably not something they would tolerate in Catalonia, Scotland, or in any of the myriad restive corners of their own empire. But who knows, it may soon be that they will have to. They have made this rod for their own back and they may soon feel the sting...


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## Blue (Feb 6, 2019)

> Right thing? when the US intervene in the name of democracy is never the right thing


Well -sadly - we're not intervening this time, so... not sure what your issue is.



>


>RT


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## Saishin (Feb 6, 2019)

Blue said:


> Well -sadly - we're not intervening this time, so... not sure what your issue is.
> 
> 
> >RT


Well Trump said that every option is opened even a military intervention 

*Venezuela's Guaido asks Italy's leaders to meet his envoys*

ROME (Reuters) - Venezuela’s opposition leader Juan Guaido has asked Italy’s ruling coalition leaders to meet with representatives as he seeks their explicit backing as interim president alongside almost all other European countries.

The hard-right League has expressed strong support for Guaido, but coalition partner the 5-Star Movement has not, making Italy the only major European Union nation not to recognize him as Venezuela’s temporary head of state.

In a Feb. 5 letter distributed by League leader and deputy prime minister Matteo Salvini’s office on Wednesday, Guaido asks if he can send a delegation “to illustrate the plan of action to renew democracy in Venezuela” through fair elections.

“The current humanitarian crisis is hitting all Venezuelans, including the more than 100,000 Italians who live in Venezuela,” it said. A 5-Star government source said its leader Luigi Di Maio had received a similar letter.

Salvini’s office said he would meet Guaido’s envoys on Feb. 11. There was no immediate comment from 5-Star.

About 20 European Union nations including Britain, Germany, France and Spain have aligned with the United States in recognizing Guaido’s leadership and pressuring socialist President Nicolas Maduro to call a new election.

Russia and China object to outside interference.

“Maduro is a criminal, Maduro is an outlaw, Maduro is an abusive, fallen and expired president,” Salvini said on Tuesday. “There is an illegal president who is torturing, arresting, starving and massacring (people) and there is a community that has the right to vote freely.”

Alessandro Di Battista, a prominent 5-Star figure, has said overt support for Guaido would be meddling and could open the way for military intervention.

Italy on Monday blocked a joint EU position to recognize Guaido as interim president, diplomatic sources said.

Venezuelans of Italian origin, many arriving in the first half of the 20th century when southern Europe was in economic doldrums from the two World Wars, are a large and influential group in the South American country.

Italian President Sergio Mattarella, who plays a mainly ceremonial role and usually stays out of day-to-day politics, urged the government to overcome differences and back Guaido.

“We must demonstrate responsibility and clarity with a common line taken by all our EU partners and allies,” Mattarella said at an event in Rome on Monday.

Mainstream center-left and center-right parties have denounced the government for being out of step with Europe.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...rIMvJ1vT_gSDJjH5ee0BwsH0DvO8wjvEwmyChRq7eha5Y


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## Ignition (Feb 6, 2019)

Why are people trying to defend that the US doesn't intervene in countries for oil or natural resources? why else are they here in Argentina settling bases near Guaraní underground aquifer, South America's gigantic natural reservoir of freshwater or putting their companies in Vaca Muerta oil field while offering in exchange training our police and selling their 'advanced' weapons (who are we going to use them against???)

Very nice deal considering we pay the highest gas bills currently.


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## Saishin (Feb 6, 2019)

Ignition said:


> Why are people trying to defend that the US doesn't intervene in countries for oil or natural resources? why else are they here in Argentina settling bases near Guaraní underground aquifer, South America's gigantic natural reservoir of freshwater or putting their companies in Vaca Muerta oil field while offering in exchange training our police and selling their 'advanced' weapons (who are we going to use them against???)
> 
> Very nice deal considering we pay the highest gas bills currently.


The problem are the national governments that accept every demand from the US,is Macri a strong ally of the US?


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## Blue (Feb 6, 2019)

Ignition said:


> Why are people trying to defend that the US doesn't intervene in countries for oil or natural resources? why else are they here in Argentina settling bases near Guaraní underground aquifer, South America's gigantic natural reservoir of freshwater or putting their companies in Vaca Muerta oil field while offering in exchange training our police and selling their 'advanced' weapons (who are we going to use them against???)
> 
> Very nice deal considering we pay the highest gas bills currently.


I learned something new! I wasn't aware we had a presence in Argentina.

But trust me when I tell you nobody except maybe Brazil cares about your water. Removing the salt from seawater would be a million times cheaper than somehow transporting water from South America, and that's ignoring that North America has plenty of fresh water.

We're probably just fighting narcos. Relax and let it happen.


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## Ignition (Feb 6, 2019)

Saishin said:


> The problem are the national governments that accept every demand from the US,is Macri a strong ally of the US?



We are indebted again thanks to his deal with IMF which most argentinians don't support and he gives green light to whatever they demand.



Blue said:


> I learned something new! I wasn't aware we had a presence in Argentina.
> 
> But trust me when I tell you nobody except maybe Brazil cares about your water. Removing the salt from seawater would be a million times cheaper than somehow transporting water from South America, and that's ignoring that North America has plenty of fresh water.
> 
> We're probably just fighting narcos. Relax and let it happen.



*With the permission of Macri, the occupation of the United States began in Ushuaia.*
believes

Wasn't aware we had narcos in Ushuaia.


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## Blue (Feb 6, 2019)

Ignition said:


> Wasn't aware we had narcos in Ushuaia.


Tierra del Fuego is an obvious strategic chokepoint. From there, you can control all shipping moving from the Atlantic to Pacific Ocean that doesn't use the Panama Canal, which, of course, we also de facto control.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 6, 2019)

Ignition said:


> Why are people trying to defend that the US doesn't intervene in countries for oil or natural resources? why else are they here in Argentina settling bases near Guaraní underground aquifer, South America's gigantic natural reservoir of freshwater or putting their companies in Vaca Muerta oil field while offering in exchange training our police and selling their 'advanced' weapons (who are we going to use them against???)
> 
> Very nice deal considering we pay the highest gas bills currently.


My defense of the US here is when I believe that the ones commenting on this is trying to use that to delegitimize or remove the humanitarian aspect of this endeavor without even providing significant evidence it's for the oil.


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## Blue (Feb 6, 2019)

You could also note that all the evil dickhead countries of the world support Maduro and wonder if you're actually doing good here arguing against recognizing Guaido.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 6, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> IIRC...Venezuela suddenly turned from prosperous nation to massive socialist shithole


Yeah, you're missing the part inbetween, where things weren't so prosperous and great, which lead to a guy like Chavez being elected in the first place.



MrGayNight said:


> Do you have any proof that it's for the oil?



Bolton's word are not enough for you?


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## Son of Goku (Feb 6, 2019)

Blue said:


> Hardly imagined.
> 
> 
> 
> etc etc etc there are 20 thousand million writeups on this, don't make me bother using Google's advanced search to find more





https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-29651742

https://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/nov/09/us-iran-russia-oil-prices-shale




There is really no way how you can deny a political intent behind this, other than using a heavy dose of confirmation bias.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 6, 2019)

*Authorities believe the cache was sent from Miami, Florida, a city notorious as a nexus of Pink Wave emigres and a major throughway in the international black-market arms trade.*

by 
February 06th, 2019

*VALENCIA, VENEZUELA —* Venezuelan authorities discovered a cache of weapons and ammunition from the United States and are investigating the intended recipient as the country faces a coup attempt backed by Washington.
According to Endes Palencia, Venezuela’s Deputy Minister for Prevention and Citizen Security, the Venezuelan National Guard and the National Integrated Service of Customs and Tax Administration made the discovery at the Arturo Michelena International Airport in Valencia, Venezuela.
In total, some 19 rifles, 118 magazines, 90 radios and six cell phones were uncovered inside a commercial cargo plane.


Authorities believe the cache was sent from Miami, Florida, a city notorious as a nexus of Pink Wave emigres and a major throughway in the international black-market arms trade.

*U.S. military intervention still on table*

On Sunday, President Donald Trump refused to draw red lines for the Venezuelan government, as President Barack Obama had disastrously done with Syria and chemical weapons. Trump didn’t take military intervention off the table, however. “Certainly it’s something that’s on the — it’s an option,” he told CBS’s _Face the Nation_ on Sunday.
Officials in Venezuela slammed Trump in response. Venezuelan Vice President Delcy Rodriguez indicated that her country stands ready to defend itself, saying “sovereignty is not discussed, it is defended.”
“We are always ready to fend off an attack,” Rodriguez added.
Venezuelan Foreign Minister Jorge Arreaza also fired back, tweeting:

Donald Trump confirms that he is at the forefront of the coup, threatening again to use military force, violating the Charter of the United Nations. … The Venezuelan opposition is controlled by Trump.”​
*The non-military military option*

While a military option may be appealing to war-hawks like National Security Advisor John Bolton, it is not a necessary condition for a full-fledged regime-change operation. While many countries have had some official presence on the ground in Syria, the overwhelming majority of the fighters in the country were foreign proxies supplied with foreign weapons — both of which came into Syria through supply lines in NATO-aligned Turkey and Jordan.
Last year, Venezuela’s neighbor, Colombia, joined NATO as a “global partner” — meaning, according to then-President Juan Manuel Santos, that it will be accredited at the headquarters in Brussels but will not be obligated to take part in military action like other NATO countries.
While the coup attempt currently underway is not the first time the U.S. has backed a regime-change plot in Venezuela this century (the U.S. backed an unsuccessful coup that temporarily deposed President Hugo Chavez in 2002), it’s also not the first time — if the authorities are correct — that U.S.-made guns have been discovered in transit from Miami to Venezuela. In 2017, the U.S.  on charges related to illegal arms shipments from Miami.


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> *Authorities believe the cache was sent from Miami, Florida, a city notorious as a nexus of Pink Wave emigres and a major throughway in the international black-market arms trade.*
> 
> by
> February 06th, 2019
> ...



>US's Slow-Rolling Coup

Pretty much a guarantee it's pointless to read this drivel.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 7, 2019)

If all the major consumers of oil go full green I'd expect this to happen in more than Venezuela.


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## Blue (Feb 7, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> If all the major consumers of oil go full green I'd expect this to happen in more than Venezuela.


That'll be satisfying, since most of them are Arab hell states.


San Juan Wolf said:


> >US's Slow-Rolling Coup
> 
> Pretty much a guarantee it's pointless to read this drivel.


It's pointless drivel. 19 guns, wow. As if Venezuelans need more guns.
This might surprise people but the US does not allow you to pack up 19 guns, or any guns, and send them to friends in South America.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue said:


> This might surprise people but the US does not allow you to pack up 19 guns, or any guns, and send them to friends in South America.



And since nothing outside the law ever happens, this story must be BS. 

You are hilarious Blue, glad to have you back.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 7, 2019)

|
by Ray Downs
|
Feb 28 2014, 5:40pm
*Does It Matter That the Venezuelan Opposition Is Funded by the US?*

*Many of the anti-government opposition groups taking to the streets in Venezuela have been backed by the US for years and are supported by wealthy Venezuelans. Is that reason to be concerned?*

_Protesters march against the government in Caracas, Venezuela, on February 15. Photo via Wikimedia Commons_

In the summer of 2007, the vehemently pro–Hugo Chávez journalist and lawyer Eva Golinger got on Venezuelan state TV and, with the help of a flow chart hand-drawn on flimsy poster board, called out several fellow journalists who had allegedly accepted US funding to help bring down the country's famously left-wing, anti-American president.

“These journalists are destabalizing agents,” Golinger said, and explained that that they had participated in programs paid for by the US that were designed to promote a pro-American agenda, the goal of which was to create anti-socialist sentiment in Venezuela.

The accusation didn't cause the kind of uproar Golinger was hoping for. The journalists were briefly investigated by a government committee, but that prompted an immediate public outcry—in fact, many Chavistas rejected such McCarthy-like tactics, claiming they made them look bad.

The incident did cause the US Embassy in Caracas some concern, however. In a cable released by Wikileaks titled “” that describes Golinger's TV appearance and the aftermath, an embassy official wrote that people were becoming wary of getting involved with any enterprise funded by the US. “It is particularly hard to persuade Chávez supporters to participate in a program they perceived as potentially career-ending,” the official wrote. In other words, though Golinger embarrassed herself with her shit-stirring, the US was really trying to bring down Chávez by funneling money to his opponents.

Since then, the US has continued its longstanding practice of funding programs that it often claims are aimed at promoting fair elections and human rights, but also strengthen Venezuelan opposition groups—and this money may be influencing the ongoing protests that have helped .

These programs have several names and objectives. Some have clearly benevolent goals; one is targeted at discouraging violence against women, for instance. But other US efforts in Venezuela are unabashedly political, such as a 2004 USAID program that, according to , would spend $450,000 to “provide training to political parties on the design, planning, and execution of electoral campaigns.” The program would also create “campaign training schools” that would recruit campaign managers and emphasize “the development of viable campaign strategies and effectively communicating party platforms to voters.”

Interestingly, it's illegal for a US political party or candidate to accept funding from any “,” which includes individuals, corporations, and governments. Venezuela  in 2010, but this is easily circumvented by channeling the money through NGOs.

It's difficult to determine exactly how much money the US has spent on these political programs in Venezuela since Chávez was first elected in 1998, but some estimates put the figure around $50 to $60 million. This year alone, President Obama  to “support political competition-building efforts” in Venezuela.

It's understandable, then, that some critics of Venezuela's opposition have argued that the protests are in part due to US meddling.

“There's absolutely some organic movement against the government. There are concerns about crime and other things,” said Roberto Lovato, a journalist who has covered the drug war and social movements in Latin America. “But if you don't factor in the millions of dollars that's been spent on destabilizing the government and prop up opposition leaders, it's not the whole story.”

Lovato added that this top-down funding of a protest movement is similar to how the American Tea Party claims to be a grassroots mobilization of everyday people but is largely bankrolled by a few wealthy individuals, such as the billionaire Koch brothers.

Although there are disagreements about the root causes for the high crime, goods shortages, and political repression that's fueling the demonstrations against President Nicolas Maduro, nobody is denying the pain Venezuelans are suffering as a result. But there are undoubtedly a lot of international interests at stake here, and both wealthy people in Venezuela and multinational corporations would be happy to see, for instance, the privatization of the country’s oil industry.

“This is not necessarily a case of the US being a puppet-master and telling the opposition what to do, but the US government does want to remove the Maduro government from power just like they wanted to do with Chávez,” said George Ciccariello-Maher, a professor at Drexel University and author of a book about Chávez. “You also have a lot of rich businessmen in Venezuela who have put money behind the opposition. But their interest is not only political—they want to get their hands on that oil money.”

There's no question that many of Maduro’s opponents are wealthy and come from elite families that have significant ties to corporate interests and have long opposed the Chavista government. One example is jailed opposition leader Leopoldo López, who comes from a wealthy Venezuelan family, was educated at Harvard, is cousins with the owner of the largest food company in Venezuela, and whose mother is the vice president of corporate affairs at the Cisneros Group, the largest media conglomerate in Latin America. (Billionaire Gustavo Cisneros, the company’s founder, is a fierce critic of Chavismo who is also close to the US government; a  describes a meeting he had with the US ambassador to discuss ways to eventually remove Chávez from power.)

So yes, the opposition is made up of political parties that have received extensive US funding and is led by the well-connected López. Does that mean the protests aren’t about helping the poor and instead only serve the interests of the US and wealthy Venezuelans?
One of the directors of Lopez's political party, Voluntad Popular (“Popular Will”), is Juan Andrés Mejía, a 27-year-old activist who has been working with Lopez since 2009 and is now pursuing a master's at Harvard. He admits that the bulk of the opposition protesters are from the middle and upper classes and are led by Venezuela's elite, but he claims that support among the poor is growing.

“What Chávez did right was give the poor a voice. Before 1999, they didn't have that,” Mejía said, referring to the year Chávez came to power. “But the opposition leaders today don't agree with the [pre-Chávez government], so that won't change. And it's true that a lot of the poor still support the government, but that is changing because the current government's policies are causing problems for everyone.”

As for the US funding, Mejía thinks it shouldn't matter.

“As long as it's not illegal, if another country wants to help us make elections more transparent and help strengthen a political party, I don't see what's wrong with that,” he said. “Besides, the Chavistas have Cubans and Russians on their side.”

And although Voluntad Popular is often said to be the most right-wing and capitalistic of Venezuela's opposition parties, Mejia balks at the description. All they want to do is open up the markets in Venezuela, which will help the poor, he says.

“Private investment is essential to foster the Venezuelan economy,” he said, “but we do not think that private investment will, on its own, be sufficient to make people progress.”

Opposition parties like Voluntad Popular want a drastically different economic model than what Venezuela currently has. But Mejía told me that they don't want to completely eradicate the socialist element from Venezuelan government. Mejía says they'd still use oil money to provide social programs for the poor as the current government does, but they'd also look at doing something similar to what Norway has done with its oil profits and  to create a government-run pension fund for the people.

But however things turn out in Venezuela, there's no question that the socialist government has been weakened and corporate have interests received a boost—which, fairly clearly, has been the point of the US’s funding programs all along.

Ray Downs

_______________
________

Weird how a 5 year old article can be just as relevant today than back when it was written.


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## Blue (Feb 7, 2019)

> “As long as it's not illegal, if another country wants to help us make elections more transparent and help strengthen a political party, I don't see what's wrong with that,” he said. “Besides, the Chavistas have Cubans and Russians on their side.”





What's actually the problem here


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## Son of Goku (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue said:


> What's actually the problem here


George Carlin would know what the problem is.

If 10 years from now, Russia and/or China attempted to help a socialist opposition under Occasio-Cortez rise to power in the US, using their NGOs as a legal front, would that be a problem for you? You would still have the EU on your side.


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## Blue (Feb 7, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> George Carlin would know what the problem is.
> 
> If 10 years from now, Russia and/or China attempted to help a socialist opposition under Occasio-Cortez rise to power in the US, using their NGOs as a legal front, would that be a problem for you? You would still have the EU on your side.


If they did it legally? Not really, no. I mean the fact that Red Cortez exists is a problem for me, and if she tried to act like she had America's interests in mind while accepting foreign aid, that'd be a problem for me, but would I blame the foreign powers for using the legal framework to pad their shills? No. 
I don't blame Russia for their 2016 nonsense, either. Besides the fact that it didn't really make a difference, we've been trying to undermine Putin for a decade.

And I mean, they do already do that.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue said:


> If they did it legally? Not really, no. I mean the fact that Red Cortez exists is a problem for me, and if she tried to act like she had America's interests in mind while accepting foreign aid, that'd be a problem for me, but would I blame the foreign powers for using the legal framework to pad their shills? No.
> I don't blame Russia for their 2016 nonsense, either. Besides the fact that it didn't really make a difference, we've been trying to undermine Putin for a decade.
> 
> And I mean, they do already do that.



Great, we're in agreement then. Mostly. I think...

I'm not so sure you would accept Occasio-Cortez as your legitimate POTUS if it came to light that Russia/China helped her take power (substantially, not like that shit with Trump), even if legally. Think of all the harm ( at least from your point of view) she could do in 4,  8 or even more years. You saying that it would merely be "a problem" for you if she benefited from foreign meddling feels like a big understatement.  Not that I would blame you. Countries should stay out of each other's internal businesses, period.


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 7, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> |
> by Ray Downs
> |
> Feb 28 2014, 5:40pm
> ...



Hey @Blue did you notice this clown is posting 5 year old news articles to try and discredit the opposition today.

Sorry dude but your desperation to "prove" how starving Venezuelans dying of curable diseases totally all like Maduro and all protests and opposition activity are faked by pro us agents on the CIA payroll are laughably transparent and demponstrably idiotic.

Do you think the people *need *fake US plants to make them protest over massive hyperinflation, malnutrition and starvation, people dying from treatable diseases due to lack of basic medicine, or the blatantly anti democratic moves of creating another legislative body above the democratically elected one, staffing it with Maduro's friends and family and then removing the actual democratically elected body's legislative power ? Do you think they *need *shadowy capitalists in the US sitting on their money thrones to tell them to be angry about these things ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## makeoutparadise (Feb 7, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Saishin (Feb 7, 2019)




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## Blue (Feb 7, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Hey @Blue did you notice this clown is posting 5 year old news articles to try and discredit the opposition today.


Yes, but if anyone at this point is taking the propaganda garbage he posts seriously I have a bridge to sell them.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 7, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Hey @Blue did you notice this clown is posting 5 year old news articles to try and discredit the opposition today.
> 
> Sorry dude but your desperation to "prove" how starving Venezuelans dying of curable diseases totally all like Maduro and all protests and opposition activity are faked by pro us agents on the CIA payroll are laughably transparent and demponstrably idiotic.
> 
> Do you think the people *need *fake US plants to make them protest over massive hyperinflation, malnutrition and starvation, people dying from treatable diseases due to lack of basic medicine, or the blatantly anti democratic moves of creating another legislative body above the democratically elected one, staffing it with Maduro's friends and family and then removing the actual democratically elected body's legislative power ? Do you think they *need *shadowy capitalists in the US sitting on their money thrones to tell them to be angry about these things ?



If you don't like knowing about US' ongoing efforts to undermine the Chavez and Maduro government, that's your choice. But don't make up stupid shit about me. Thanks.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Feb 7, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> If you don't like knowing about US' ongoing efforts to undermine the Chavez and Maduro government, that's your choice. But don't make up stupid shit about me. Thanks.


Did you post the one where the idiot has the plan written on a legal pad carrying it around? Who are you arguing with that's denying this.


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## Punished Pathos (Feb 7, 2019)

Lol at the retards here that think US isn't intervening over oil.  Who is John Bolton again?


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## Saishin (Feb 7, 2019)

Punished Pathos said:


> Lol at the retards here that think US isn't intervening over oil.  Who is John Bolton again?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 7, 2019)

Punished Pathos said:


> Lol at the retards here that think US isn't intervening over oil.  Who is John Bolton again?


I think we've be more interested in stealing all the Avocados down there.


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## hadou (Feb 7, 2019)

Per the constitution of the country, there is an interim president. Maduro is a dictator, the country is in shambles, the situation is horrendous. Why are you guys chasing each other’s tails about the reasons from US?


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 7, 2019)

hadou said:


> Per the constitution of the country, there is an interim president. Maduro is a dictator, the country is in shambles, the situation is horrendous. Why are you guys chasing each other’s tails about the reasons from US?



Guido was not declared President in a democratic fashion, and the US(as per bolton) has already said they are only after the Venezuelan oil. The citizens of venzuela dont want the US interfering in their country based on polling...

And most importantly, nobody gives a shit whether you think the USA has the god given unilateral right to depose nations they think are going down the shitter on a whim. The US isnt fucking judge dredd and doesnt even have the right to use such a pathetic excuse after their previous interventions.

I'm sorry if i sound harsh, but i am fucking tired of that garbage mindset.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 7, 2019)

hadou said:


> Per the constitution of the country, there is an interim president. Maduro is a dictator, the country is in shambles, the situation is horrendous. Why are you guys chasing each other’s tails about the reasons from US?


According to SOG America is the reason why Venezuela is in shambles for how it treated 'poor' Chavez and Maduro. 

And yeah, there's literally no money in Venezuelan Oil. WHY would the US even bother? Just for the lulz?


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## hadou (Feb 7, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> Guido was not declared President in a democratic fashion, and the US(as per bolton) has already said they are only after the Venezuelan oil. The citizens of venzuela dont want the US interfering in their country based on polling...
> 
> And most importantly, nobody gives a shit whether you think the USA has the god given unilateral right to depose nations they think are going down the shitter on a whim. The US isnt fucking judge dredd and doesnt even have the right to use such a pathetic excuse after their previous interventions.
> 
> I'm sorry if i sound harsh, but i am fucking tired of that garbage mindset.



It is in their constitution, period. Maduro was not democratically elected, the elections were a joke. This is about providing aid to desperate people.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 7, 2019)

This is the mindset of the people who decided on their own to destabilize south america and the middle eastfor decades while supporting over 70% of the world's dictators. THe fact that some people are so blinded that don't realize what they are saying is too sad.

The fact that we are only a few months beyond that whole thing with saudi arabia(our friend and 'ally' who is one of the absolute worst dictatorships in the world and is actively engaging in the worsts human rights crisis in yemen) proves that people have completely shallow minds and very short attention spans


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## hadou (Feb 7, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> According to SOG America is the reason why Venezuela is in shambles for how it treated 'poor' Chavez and Maduro.
> 
> And yeah, there's literally no money in Venezuelan Oil. WHY would the US even bother? Just for the lulz?



The US has always and will always do what is in its interests. Every country is the same.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 7, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> This is the mindset of the people who decided on their own to destabilize south america and the middle eastfor decades while supporting over 70% of the world's dictators. THe fact that some people are so blinded that don't realize what they are saying is too sad.
> 
> The fact that we are only a few months beyond that whole thing with saudi arabia proves that people have completely shallow minds and very short attention spans


...did you just flat out ignore that the Venezuelan Constitution backs what Guiado is doing? And then to throw your support with Maduro, Inuhanyou?


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 7, 2019)

hadou said:


> It is in their constitution, period. Maduro was not democratically elected, the elections were a joke. This is about providing aid to desperate people.



There were elections, and those were more valid than a prop backed by the US goverment trying to take over the country for the oil reserves they have. Stop being blind and actually ask yourself when the US has ever intervened in a country's elections "for the sake of the people". If you want to provide aid, there's providing aid through relief organizations not the USA goverment triggering regime change in yet another country for their own ends. Its a fake excuse and you know that.

Of course, if you say you legitimately trust donald trump and John bolton of all people with "peacekeeping" efforts there's no helping you and i'd have to question your mental state.

What i'm saying is divorced entirely from whether i am in defense of maduro. I honestly have no stake in that. 

What i'm saying is, you arguing that the US has any right to get involved is fundamentally wrong and is the problem.


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## hadou (Feb 7, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> There were elections, and those were more valid than a prop backed by the US goverment trying to take over the country for the oil reserves they have. Stop being blind and actually ask yourself when the US has ever intervened in a country's elections "for the sake of the people". If you want to provide aid, there's providing aid through relief organizations not the USA goverment triggering regime change in yet another country for their own ends. Its a fake excuse and you know that.
> 
> Of course, if you say you legitimately trust donald trump and John bolton of all people with "peacekeeping" efforts there's no helping you and i'd have to question your mental state.
> 
> ...



The elections were a joke, period. If you had even an inkling of knowledge about them, you would know. People are dying every day from hunger, lack of medicine, political dissidents are beat and jailed. The constitution of the country is clear. 

Maduro has even blocked the aid from several countries by setting trailers to block the bridge, even when the people in the country are dying and suffering.


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## Mider T (Feb 7, 2019)

Inuhanyou said:


> Guido was not declared President in a democratic fashion, and the US(as per bolton) has already said they are only after the Venezuelan oil. The citizens of venzuela dont want the US interfering in their country based on polling...
> 
> And most importantly, nobody gives a shit whether you think the USA has the god given unilateral right to depose nations they think are going down the shitter on a whim. The US isnt fucking judge dredd and doesnt even have the right to use such a pathetic excuse after their previous interventions.
> 
> I'm sorry if i sound harsh, but i am fucking tired of that garbage mindset.


The will of the US, the civilized world, the Venezuelan National Assembly, and the Venezuelan people themselves are to get rid of Maduro.  You and few others are the only ones who seem to have trouble getting with the program.


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## Blue (Feb 7, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> According to SOG America is the reason why Venezuela is in shambles for how it treated 'poor' Chavez and Maduro.
> 
> And yeah, there's literally no money in Venezuelan Oil. WHY would the US even bother? Just for the lulz?


JUst NPC shit. They got told 10 years ago that the US starts wars over oil and can't change gears.



hadou said:


> The US has always and will always do what is in its interests. Every country is the same.


I agree, which is why we're doing nothing here


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## Son of Goku (Feb 7, 2019)

Blue said:


> JUst NPC shit. They got told 10 years ago that the US starts wars over oil and can't change gears.


Nah, we only got told a couple days ago, right out of the devil's mouth.



> I agree, which is why we're doing nothing here



You're not doing nothing here, that's the problem.


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## Blue (Feb 7, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> You're not doing nothing here, that's the problem.


We literally are doing nothing, which annoys me, and I'd be happily telling you otherwise if we weren't.

If you're talking about the "5000 troops to Columbia" thing, that's a humanitarian force. Bare minimum for ANY kind of fighting is 20,000. And at least one aircraft carrier, generally two, none of which are making ready to leave port.

We're doing fuckall.


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## Mider T (Feb 8, 2019)

SoG wants the US to something so bad that he's actually frustrated he has nothing real to criticize for.


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## Saishin (Feb 8, 2019)

Romania recognized Guaido,there are now just 5 EU countries left Cyprus,Slovenia,Slovakia,Italy,Greece plus Norway,these 6 european countries still do not recognize Guaido


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## Skaddix (Feb 8, 2019)

Who cares the only way we do this is with a Military Solution. 

Only countries who matter are those who could contribute anything military so that is what Britain, France, Germany? I assume BP, Total and Shell want in with Exxon and Chevron.


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## Saishin (Feb 8, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> Who cares the only way we do this is with a Military Solution.
> 
> Only countries who matter are those who could contribute anything military so that is what Britain, France, Germany? I assume BP, Total and Shell want in with Exxon and Chevron.


Indeed,revolutions are fought with the use of force,there isn't a Ghandi in Venezuela so I don't know how the international community will pressure Maduro out in diplomatic ways,all these countries that are supporting Guaido refuse the use of force against Maduro but it's clear that he will not go unless forced but we all know that the US will have the last word since Trump stated that a military option is on the table although as last resort.

Maduro may go peacefully if:

Guaido managed to obtain the support of all the armed forces and thus the military overthrow Maduro

If Russia or China decide that it's not worth economically to support that clown anymore causing the collapse of his government

If Maduro gives up voluntarily pressured by the international community but he's like in a Let me die with the Philistines mode

As far as I can see it seems that all these options are unlikely to happen so the military intervention is the only useful way but we'll see


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## Skaddix (Feb 8, 2019)

I don't see how its not worth it for Russia and China. The US bogged down in another quagmire closer to home seems great for Russia and China if you ask me. Its only a negative if the US Alliance wins quickly and easily.

Not to mention Wars do tend to boost poll numbers assuming they are wins and not quagmires. Trump, May and Macron could all quite frankly use the Poll Boost. Even if the US and French record in Jungle Warfare is pretty shit quite frankly.


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## Saishin (Feb 8, 2019)

Skaddix said:


> I don't see how its not worth it for Russia and China. The US bogged down in another quagmire closer to home seems great for Russia and China if you ask me. Its only a negative if the US Alliance wins quickly and easily.
> 
> Not to mention Wars do tend to boost poll numbers assuming they are wins and not quagmires. Trump, May and Macron could all quite frankly use the Poll Boost. Even if the US and French record in Jungle Warfare is pretty shit quite frankly.


Well all depends if Russia and China can obtain something back in case of a military support to Maduro maybe they will since much probably they will support logistically Maduro rather directly.

That being said you're right this is gonna be a quagmire for the US,Canada,EU states and others that are following America into this because they are the ones that will have to intervene directly with their military in Venezuela and don't think that the US later will accept to fight alone it will obliged them to contribute with their troops and this is why other countries preferred not to back Guaido because for the fear of a military escalation that may turn Venezuela like Lybia,Iraq,Syria with all the serious implications that a war may bring in the south american continent

Maybe in America war is a poll boost but I can assure you that in Europe heavy military interventions are saw very negatively by the public opinion also because the financial cost is enormous,the US can carry such expenses but not a european country nor another countries around the world so in the case Macron,May,Sanchez,Merkel will intervene military in Venezuela they gonna be punished in the polls that's for sure and of course they eventually will poke into a Vietnam 2.0,the last military campaigns have showed to be a total disaster for the countries involved,they only destabilized the interested regions.

A very interesting analysis

*Venezuela: Italy must be neutral - Di Maio*

(ANSA) - Rome, February 7 - Italy must be neutral on Venezuela and there must not be another Libya, Deputy Premier Luigi Di Maio said Thursday.

In a letter to opposition leader and self-proclaimed interim president Juan Guaidò, Di Maio said the Italian government "must avoid all external interference" and be a possible mediator to arrive at fresh elections, "free and monitored by international organisms".

Guadò on Wednesday asked Di Maio, fellow Deputy Premier Matteo Salvini and Premier Giuseppe Conte to meet a delegation from him in Rome.


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## hcheng02 (Feb 8, 2019)

One thing I haven't heard people talk about is how Venezuela's oil production is actually collapsing. Maduro's government is so mismanaging the oil infrastructure that they estimate that oil production is decreasing 50,000 barrels a month. They think that oil production will decrease up to 75%.

In 2008, oil production was 2,500,000 barrels per day.
In 2018, oil production was 600,000 barrels per day.

Plus Maduro doesn't get cash for all the oil they do pump out now since they barter pure oil to China and Russia in exchange for debt relief on their loans. 

And the reason why all those other South American countries seem so strangely supportive of US intervention is because they are experiencing near Syria levels of refugee migration. Up to 3 million Venezuelans have left - compare that to around 5 million Syrians - and Venezuela doesn't have a civil war or natural disaster to blame. It's purely due to economic mismanagement and its only getting worse. They are being overwhelmed, which is something that a lot of the EU can sympathize with. The refugees also carry disease like measles and malaria because Venezuela hospitals literally don't have any vaccines or medications to treat them. Its also causing social unrest because natives don't like taking care of so many refugees - only a few months ago there were riots in Brazil against a refugee camp.


That's not to say that I support US military intervention, I genuinely don't. But let's not pretend that the current status quo is sustainable. What happens when Venezuela's oil production collapses to the point that they can't provide oil to China and Russia? Can Maduro keep the military elite in line then?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Saishin (Feb 8, 2019)

hcheng02 said:


> That's not to say that I support US military intervention, I genuinely don't. *But let's not pretend that the current status quo is sustainable.* What happens when Venezuela's oil production collapses to the point that they can't provide oil to China and Russia? Can Maduro keep the military elite in line then?


No one is saying that the situation is sustainable in a way or another everybody agree that Maduro must go the point is how to obtain this target and the options are not that positive because all the diplomatic pressure seems not working,so yeah a military intervention is needed but careful what you wish for you said the economic crisis in Venezuela are making people flee and the South Americans countries are experiencing lot of pressure from the refugees from Venezuela putting the social stability at risk but a war would be worse because everybody would run and will take refuge in other South American countries and at this point yes the insability will grow further.
That's why a diplomatic solution is beneficial for the sake of the Venezuelans and for the stability of the Latin America continent


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## hcheng02 (Feb 8, 2019)

Saishin said:


> No one is saying that the situation is sustainable in a way or another everybody agree that Maduro must go the point is how to obtain this target and the options are not that positive because all the diplomatic pressure seems not working,so yeah a military intervention is needed but careful what you wish for you said the economic crisis in Venezuela are making people flee and the South Americans countries are experiencing lot of pressure from the refugees from Venezuela putting the social stability at risk but a war would be worse because everybody would run and will take refuge in other South American countries and at this point yes the insability will grow further.
> That's why a diplomatic solution is beneficial for the sake of the Venezuelans and for the stability of the Latin America continent



That's easier said than done considering how there are no good diplomatic solutions here.




> *Venezuela’s Suicide*
> * Lessons From a Failed State*
> By Moisés Naím and Francisco Toro
> 
> ...


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## Blue (Feb 8, 2019)

No, a military intervention is not needed.

I mean, it would help. A lot less people would starve or have to flee their homes if we ended this tomorrow. But the Venezuelan people are against Maduro, nearly 100% of them. The military is still on his side because they're getting what oil money remains, but that will be gone soon.



Skaddix said:


> I don't see how its not worth it for Russia and China. The US bogged down in another quagmire closer to home seems great for Russia and China if you ask me. Its only a negative if the US Alliance wins quickly and easily.
> 
> Not to mention Wars do tend to boost poll numbers assuming they are wins and not quagmires. Trump, May and Macron could all quite frankly use the Poll Boost. Even if the US and French record in Jungle Warfare is pretty shit quite frankly.


And then there's this bullshit.
1. It wouldn't be a quagmire. Nobody in Venezuela is willing to die. Iran can't import 100,000 foreign fighters like they did in Iraq. 
2. Trump can't boost his poll numbers. Everyone in America thinks he's either Jesus or the Antichrist. Starting a war would lose him support with his moron isolationist base and lose him the election.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Feb 8, 2019)

Didn't read most of the article above except the start.

But the part trying to portray Venezuela as a paradise before Chavez is flat out wrong. And then it starts generalizing socialism as a bad thing which is where I stopped.


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## Blue (Feb 8, 2019)

Dragon D. Luffy said:


> Didn't read most of the article above except the start.
> 
> But the part trying to portray Venezuela as a paradise before Chavez is flat out wrong. And then it starts generalizing socialism as a bad thing which is where I stopped.


Actually it defends socialism a lot more than it should.


> To many observers, the explanation for Venezuela’s predicament is simple: under Chávez, the country caught a strong case of socialism, and all its subsequent disasters stem from that original sin. But Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Ecuador, Nicaragua, and Uruguay have also elected socialist governments in the last 20 years. Although each has struggled politically and economically, none—aside from Nicaragua—has imploded. Instead, several have prospered.


lrn 2 read tbh


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## MrGayNight (Feb 8, 2019)

> Washington—Venezuelan authorities say a U.S.-owned air freight company delivered a crate of assault weapons earlier this week to the international airport in Valencia to be used in “terrorist actions” against the embattled government of Nicolás Maduro.
> 
> An air freight company, 21 Air LLC, based in Greensboro, N.C., operates the Boeing 767 aircraft that the Venezuelans allege was used in the arms transfer. The flight originated in Miami on Feb 3.
> 
> The Boeing 767 has made dozens of flights between Miami International Airport and destinations in Colombia and Venezuela since Jan. 11, a flight tracking service shows, often returning to Miami for only a few hours before flying again to South America.



Venezuela is apparently saying the US sent these guns that look like someone buyed them from Walmart.


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## hcheng02 (Feb 8, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Venezuela is apparently saying the US sent these guns that look like someone buyed them from Walmart.



You don't need to go to Walmart to get guns like these in Venezuela. Caracas is literally one of the most gang infested and violent crime ridden cities in the damn world. Like around 2012, Caracas actually had more murders than Baghdad and crime has been getting worse since then because the economy collapsed. I think in 2018 there were around 27,000 murders in the country which is one of the highest in the world. The cops there can casually get a haul like that from busting any random street or kidnapping gang on any given day.


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## Saishin (Feb 9, 2019)

*Venezuela's Guaido won't rule out authorising US intervention*

CARACAS: Venezuela's self-proclaimed acting president Juan Guaido refused to rule out Friday the possibility of authorizing United States intervention to help force President Nicolas Maduro from power and alleviate a humanitarian crisis.

National Assembly leader Guaido told AFP he would do "everything that is necessary... to save human lives," acknowledging that US intervention is "a very controversial subject."


The opposition leader launched a bid to oust Maduro last month, declaring himself interim president, a move recognized by the US and around 40 other countries, including 20 from the European Union.

Under Maduro's stewardship, oil-rich Venezuela's economy has collapsed leaving the country wracked by hyperinflation, recession and shortages of basic necessities such as food and medicine.

"We're going to do everything that has a lower social cost, that generates governability and stability to deal with the emergency," said Guaido, 35.

He is trying to bring in food and medicines from the US but the supplies are stuck in warehouses in Colombia because the Venezuelan military has blocked their entry.

Earlier, Maduro vowed not to let in "fake humanitarian aid" and claimed Venezuela's crisis has been "fabricated by Washington" to justify intervention.

Guaido says 300,000 people could die if desperately-needed aid isn't brought in.

"SANITATION EMERGENCY"

And he said a first attempt to bring in the aid should be made next week.

"The first stage is containing the sanitation emergency. Two days ago eight children under three lost their lives ... dehydrated, malnourished," said Guaido.

Failing public services including water, electricity and transport are among Venezuela's worst problems, while there is also a shortage of doctors and medical supplies in hospitals.

Helping the needy is not Guaido's only aim, though.

He has dismissed Maduro as illegitimate over his reelection last May in polls branded a fraud by the US, EU and many Latin American countries.

Guaido says the constitution allows him to assume power, set up a transitional government and hold new elections - one of his key demands that has received widespread international support.

"We'll do everything we have to in a sovereign and autonomous manner to achieve an end to the usurpation, a transitional government and free elections," he said.

"CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY"

And he still has faith that the military can be won over, appealing to their sense of humanity.

"The armed forces have a huge dilemma, whether or not to accept the aid. It would be almost miserable at this point of huge necessity not to accept it," he said.

"Inhibiting the entry of this aid could be seen as a crime against humanity."

Guaido said the military has to decide whether to "take the side of the constitution" or to "continue on the side of an increasingly isolated dictator."

But he said "fear" was preventing more top ranking members of the armed forces from switching sides and joining air force general Francisco Yanez who last weekend disavowed Maduro.

"We've seen some National Guard sergeants who've shown unhappiness and they're being tortured. One of the sergeants' relatives is missing."

Consultants Eurasia Group said on Thursday that Maduro's traditonal allies Russia and China are "unlikely to lend (him) meaningful support," reinforcing its view that the socialist leader "will be unable to sustain his regime."

Guaido agrees that no-one will come to Maduro's rescue.

"I'm not very worried... Maduro hasn't had a new line of credit since 2016," said Guaido.

"I'm sure that Moscow as much as Beijing is very aware of the situation in Venezuela, that Maduro doesn't have popular support, the he can't stabilize the economy... all the while holding the biggest oil reserves in the world."


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## MrGayNight (Feb 9, 2019)

Didn't news already report that bout 1-2 weeks ago near the start of this whole drama?


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## Saishin (Feb 9, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Didn't news already report that bout 1-2 weeks ago near the start of this whole drama?


Don't know but untill now Guaido has always opt out a military intervention but if these sources are reliable it seems that diplomacy isn't working with Maduro and thus if diplomacy can't do nothing the military force is a natural outcome

*Italy Saves Europe’s Dignity over US Bullying of Venezuela*

It’s comically ironic. France has now recalled its ambassador from Rome in a mounting row over Italy’s alleged “interference” in French internal political affairs. This is at the same that France and other European states are joining in a brazen campaign by the United States to overthrow the elected president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro. Irony doesn’t come much thicker than that.

The row between France and Italy is but the latest in a long-running spat between French President Emmanuel Macron and the newly elected coalition government in Rome. The Italian government is an unlikely coalition between the left-leaning Five Star Movement (5SM) and a rightwing party, La Lega (The League).

Both parties are highly critical of the EU establishment and neoliberal capitalist polices which France’s former Rothschild banker-turned-president Macron embodies.

Rome has also slammed France for its responsibility in fomenting massive immigration problems for Europe and Italy in particular through Paris’ criminal military interventions, along with the US and other NATO powers, in the Middle East and North Africa.

Things came to a head this week when it emerged that Italian deputy Prime Minister Luigi Di Maio (and 5SM leader) had met with members of the Yellow Vest protest movement in France. The Yellow Vest movement has been holding nationwide demonstrations for the past 12 weeks protesting against Macron’s economic policies and what they call his elitist style of government. Di Maio and the other Italian deputy premier Matteo Salvini (leader of The League) have been openly supporting the French protesters, whom they identify with as part of a popular revolt across Europe against neoliberal austerity.

Reacting to reports of Italian government contact with the French protesters, France’s Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said it was “outrageous interference” in his country’s internal affairs. The row has further escalated after France recalled its ambassador from Rome. The last time that happened was in 1940 during the Second World War. This is a major breakdown in relations between two of the EU’s founding members.

Here is where the irony descends into farce. France is blustering with rage at Italy’s alleged meddling in its sovereign affairs while at the very same time the French government is party to an international effort led by the US to bring about regime change in Venezuela. The hypocritical arrogance is priceless.

This week France and several other EU members, including Germany, Britain, Spain and the Netherlands, announced that they were “recognizing” a self-proclaimed president in Venezuela. Marginal opposition figure Juan Guaido declared himself the “interim president” of the South American country on January 23. There are well-documented links between Guaido and his far-right opposition party to the American CIA. The move to delegitimize the elected president, Nicolas Maduro, has been orchestrated by the Trump administration. It is a blatant illegal regime-change maneuver that violates the UN Charter and international law. Maduro’s socialist government and the nation’s natural oil wealth – the largest known reserves on the planet – are obvious targets for Washington and European capital.

Russia, China, Iran, Turkey, as well as some Latin American countries, including Mexico, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Cuba, have rightly denounced the interference in Venezuela’s sovereign affairs. Washington’s demand for Maduro to step down under the threat of US military invasion is a staggering display of imperialist aggression. But the international gangsterism is being indulged by certain European states, primarily France, which are bestowing a veneer of legitimacy to the whole disgraceful business.

Italy is one of the few EU states that has refused to go along with the US-led criminal campaign for regime change in Venezuela. The Italian government reportedly blocked the EU from issuing a joint policy statement calling for the recognition of Guaido as “president” in place of Maduro. Those European powers that are engaging in the Washington’s violation of Venezuela are doing so on their own complicity, not in the name of the EU.

Italy’s principled stand, along with Russia and China, in defense of Venezuela’s sovereignty is a commendable adherence to international law. By not allowing the EU to be associated with the US skulduggery, that is a vital setback to Washington’s machinations.

Thus, the Italian government has saved the EU from descending into total disrepute. It is bad enough that certain members like France are engaging in the US-led gangsterism against Venezuela, but at least Italy’s blocking action has prevented the EU as a bloc from being complicit.

If the fundamental principle of non-interference in the sovereign affairs of nation states is not respected, then the entire system of international law unravels. The principle has been violated many times in recent years, most notably with illegal wars conducted by the US and its NATO partners in the Middle East and North Africa. But the latest episode of regime change in Venezuela is perhaps the most audacious yet. Washington and its European lackeys are intent on abolishing the democratic mandate of President Maduro and the ruling of Venezuela’s Supreme Court.

Washington and its pathetic European accomplices are opening a Pandora Box of global lawlessness if they get away with their criminal bullying of Venezuela.

Russia, China, Italy and other nations are essentially holding the line between a semblance of order and unfettered chaos.

We may consider the Italian deputy premier’s contact with French protesters as ill-advised politics. But whatever mistake Italy may have done in that regard, it is negligible compared with the astounding arrogance and criminality of France and other European states in their violation of Venezuela’s sovereignty. The arrogance of France’s reaction to Italy’s alleged interference this week is a spectacle to behold.

If anything, Italy deserves applause and respect for exposing the hypocrisy of France and other European would-be Neo-colonialists.

A bitter aspect of the irony is this: the French president and others are contemptuous of democracy and international law, not just in Venezuela, but towards their very own people.


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## MrGayNight (Feb 9, 2019)

Saishin said:


> If anything, Italy deserves applause and respect for exposing the hypocrisy of France and other European would-be Neo-colonialists.
> 
> A bitter aspect of the irony is this: the French president and others are contemptuous of democracy and international law, not just in Venezuela, but towards their very own people.


Sounds like a very-very biased source.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 9, 2019)

MrGayNight said:


> Sounds like a very-very biased source.


And also ignoring that Maduro's election was illegitimate.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

*Guaido's recognition as Venezuelan leader 'inadmissible' under international law, Bundestag experts say*

*DAILY SABAH WITH AGENCIES*
ISTANBUL
Published 16 min ago






 The president of Venezuela's National Assembly and self-proclaimed acting president Juan Guaido delivers a speech at the Central Universidy of Venezuela (UCV) in Caracas on February 8, 2019. (AFP Photo) 


The international recognition of Venezuela's self-proclaimed interim president Juan Guaidó could amount to interference in the country's internal affairs, experts at Bundestag, Germany's lower house of parliament, have said.

*There are "strong reasons" for this assumption, the experts said in a report which AFP news agency obtained Saturday.


"Thus, the question whether interference in internal affairs in the present case qualifies as an inadmissible intervention remains entirely justified."*

The report, commissioned by the Left Party at Bundestag, emphasized whether this "early recognition" was admissible under international law.

This recognition issue arises "before a new state authority is enforced," the reports says, but adds that the verdict on whether a new state power is "decisively enforced" depends on political discretion.

Whether the "real prerequisites" for early recognition were present could not be established "with the available means," the experts admitted in the report.

Andrej Hunko, a lawmaker from the Left Party, said the report confirmed his views that the recognition of Guaido was contrary to international law.

"The German federal government could have mediated," explained Hunko, adding "Instead, it discredited itself with its one-sided partisanship."

Underlining that Guaido currently has no real power in Venezuela, Hunko warned that acknowledging him as president only further intensifies the conflict.

Similarly, a Venezuelan Supreme Court justice said Friday that National Assembly leader Juan Guaido's decision to declare himself interim president was "null and void".

In a statement, Justice Juan Mendoza said Guaido's interim government conflicts with the country's constitution and he is usurping presidential powers.

The court has already barred Guaido from leaving the country and frozen his bank accounts.
Venezuela has been rocked by protests since Jan. 10 when President Nicolas Maduro was sworn in for a second term following a vote boycotted by the opposition.

Tensions rose when opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself acting president on Jan. 23, a move which was supported by the U.S., Germany and many other European and Latin American countries.

Russia, Turkey, China, Iran, Bolivia and Mexico have put their weight behind Maduro.





______________________________
More credible German source:
*Machtkampf in Venezuela :   Gutachten nährt Zweifel an Guaidó-Anerkennung*

Aktualisiert am   09.02.2019-14:11

Juan Guaidó wurde von mehrere Staaten anerkannt.  Bild: AFP

Die Anerkennung des selbst ernannten venezolanischen Übergangspräsidenten Juan Guaidó könnte Einmischung in innere Angelegenheiten sein, heißt es in einem Gutachten des wissenschaftlichen Dienstes des Bundestags.

Die internationale Anerkennung des selbst ernannten venezolanischen Interimspräsidenten Juan Guaidó wirft nach einem Gutachten des Bundestags völkerrechtliche Fragen auf. Es gebe „starke Gründe für die Annahme“, dass die Anerkennung Guaidós eine Einmischung in innere Angelegenheiten sei, heißt es in der siebenseitigen Expertise, die von der Linksfraktion in Auftrag gegeben wurde und der Deutschen Presse-Agentur vorliegt. Die Frage sei „durchaus berechtigt“, ob dies nicht als unzulässige Intervention zu bewerten sei.

Guaidó hatte sich am 23. Januar selbst zum Interimspräsidenten ausgerufen. Zur Begründung sagte er, die Wahl von Staatschef  im Mai vergangenen Jahres habe nicht demokratischen Ansprüchen entsprochen. Maduro bezeichnet Guaidó hingegen als eine Marionette der Vereinigten Staaten und lehnt Neuwahlen ab. Die Vereinigten Staaten und eine Reihe lateinamerikanischer Staaten stellten sich hinter Guaidó. Auch Deutschland und zwölf weitere EU-Länder erkannten den jungen Parlamentspräsidenten als rechtmäßigen Übergangsstaatschef des südamerikanischen Krisenstaats an. Zuvor hatten sie Maduro aufgefordert, binnen acht Tagen eine faire und freie Neuwahl des Präsidenten anzusetzen. Dieser ließ die Frist aber verstreichen.

Dem Gutachten des wissenschaftlichen Dienstes des  zufolge ist es für die Frage der völkerrechtlichen Zulässigkeit wichtig, ob sich der neue Präsident bereits endgültig durchgesetzt hat. Die Anerkennung dürfe nicht vorzeitig erfolgen. Diese Frage lasse sich im Fall Venezuela allerdings nicht zweifelsfrei beantworten. Zugleich betont das Gutachten: „Die bloße Anerkennung verleiht der neuen Regierung keine Legitimität.“

Der Linken-Politiker Andrej Hunko erklärte, es sei „völlig offensichtlich“, dass Guaidó derzeit keine reale Macht in Venezuela habe. „Ihn als Präsidenten anzuerkennen stellt einen verantwortungslosen Akt dar, der den ohnehin schon gefährlichen Konflikt weiter verschärft“, kritisierte er. Es gebe die Gefahr eines Bürgerkriegs oder einer Militärintervention. „Die Bundesregierung hätte vermitteln können“, sagte Hunko. Diese Chance sei durch die Anerkennung Guaidós vertan.

Die wissenschaftlichen Dienste des Bundestages unterstützen die Abgeordneten, ihre Arbeiten geben nicht die Auffassung des Bundestags wieder.





_________________________
____________

@Pliskin


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## Blue (Feb 9, 2019)

Imagine being in the same camp as Russia, China, Iran, and Turkey and going "yeah we're doing the right thing definitely"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

Blue said:


> Venezuelan people are against Maduro, nearly 100% of them.



Source? I mean nearly 100% sounds terribly optimistic/pessimitistic without digging into it, but I actually heard/read the claim that there are still 6-9 million 'Chavistas' (who may or may not support Maduro at this point, idk) in Venenzuela . So what's your source?


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## hcheng02 (Feb 9, 2019)

Blue said:


> No, a military intervention is not needed.
> 
> I mean, it would help. A lot less people would starve or have to flee their homes if we ended this tomorrow. But the Venezuelan people are against Maduro, nearly 100% of them. The military is still on his side because they're getting what oil money remains, but that will be gone soon.
> 
> ...



While things won't improve until Maduro is ousted, they will get worse before it gets better. The infrastructure of the country - oil (its main source of income), education, medical, electric, water, etc. - is so broken by the Chavista regime that it pretty much is the equivalent of some third world African country. Law and order has so broken down that Maduro's fall will only lead to general anarchy and civil war. Every gang leader and military officer will go full warlord and carve out their own fiefdom. Only after whatever faction manages to win the Darwinian struggle of that civil war will be strong enough to rule the country and who knows how long it will take? It might be years or even decades, and while that happens you will get millions more refugees and tens of thousands more deaths. I can say with certainty that democracy in Venezuela is finished at least within our lifetime.

A military intervention will not help. It will only leave the USA being blamed for the inevitable civil war and humanitarian catastrophe that is guaranteed to ensue since the media narrative is to always blame the USA for everything. Better to sit back and let the Maduro regime fall apart when it runs out of oil, and then ally ourselves with whatever dictator comes out on top in the end.


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## Blue (Feb 9, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Source? I mean nearly 100% sounds terribly optimistic/pessimitistic without digging into it, but I actually heard/read the claim that there are still 6-9 million 'Chavistas' (who may or may not support Maduro at this point, idk) in Venenzuela . So what's your source?


My ass. Maduro's approval was 17% back before starvation and mass protests set in. Safe to say it's well below 10% now. "Nearly 100%" is probably accurate enough.


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## makeoutparadise (Feb 9, 2019)

Mexico supports Maduro??


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Funny how you only ever post articles, even five years old, to try and discredit legitimate and legal opposition in Venezuela, and only post articles critical of Guaidó or which claim his proclamation is "a slow roling us coup".

Do you not see any news articles or pronouncements in his favour, or do you simply dismiss all of those as being "manufactured by the CIA" ?


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And yeah, there's literally no money in Venezuelan Oil.


How is Venezuela making money with oil, when there is "literally no money" to be made? Can you be any more ignorant?



Blue said:


> My ass. Maduro's approval was 17% back before starvation and mass protests set in. Safe to say it's well below 10% now. "Nearly 100%" is probably accurate enough.


Venzuelan pop. ~ 32 Million
17% ~ 5.5 Million
23% ~ 7.5 Million

= 6-9 Million being probably accurate enough.


And it's not a given that people hate Maduro more now when the opposition appears to be Trump's sock pocket. Maybe the numbers who don't support either are rising. I need to see new poll numbers.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

makeoutparadise said:


> Mexico supports Maduro??


No, "green" is not picking sides and favors dialogue.



San Juan Wolf said:


> Funny how you only ever post articles, even five years old, to try and discredit legitimate and legal opposition in Venezuela, and only post articles critical of Guaidó or which claim his proclamation is "a slow roling us coup".
> 
> Do you not see any news articles or pronouncements in his favour, or do you simply dismiss all of those as being "manufactured by the CIA" ?



How is that funny? Why would I waste time and energy posting articles un-critical of Guaido or US involvement when most of the Cafe and the MSM is doing that already?


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## MrGayNight (Feb 9, 2019)

makeoutparadise said:


> Mexico supports Maduro??


I think they're being neutral.


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> No, "green" is not picking sides and favors dialogue.
> 
> 
> 
> How is that funny? Why would I waste time and energy posting articles un-critical of Guaido or US involvement when most of the Cafe and the MSM is doing that already?



It's not about fun, it's about honesty. Are you deliberately only reading anti Guaido's narratives to re-affirm yourself in the notion that somehow the Venezuelan opposition is not legitimate or do you approach the matter critically and evaluate the validity of information presented and *then *make your pronouncements ?


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> How is Venezuela making money with oil, when there is "literally no money" to be made? Can you be any more ignorant?
> 
> 
> Venzuelan pop. ~ 32 Million
> ...



Because the massive protests and increasing malnutrition and infant mortality rate are things that make you consider the possibility of Maduro _gaining _in popularity I guess.


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## Pliskin (Feb 9, 2019)

Interesting.

Important to note that said scientific service of the Bundestag has a pretty okay-ish reputation as being experts focusing on their fields as opposed to partisan think tanks.

(Though the headline overstates the case a little, should add 'might' or 'could')


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## Garcher (Feb 9, 2019)

China, Russia, Iran and Turkey are the champions of international law I guess


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> It's not about fun, it's about honesty.



You said it was funny.



> Are you deliberately only reading anti Guaido's narratives to re-affirm yourself in the notion that somehow the Venezuelan opposition is not legitimate or do you approach the matter critically and evaluate the validity of information presented and *then *make your pronouncements ?



I'm reading all kinds of stuff, but I usually post stuff that I see as underrepresented, either here or in the MSM or both. And that's my genreal approach to all subjects.

On the topic at hand: Maduro, leigitimate or not, does a terrible job and he should be replaced. Giuado, legitimate or not, might be better, but his background and rise to power is shady af. Either way, international law should be adhered to, meaning, no meddling of any sort (unless it's sanctioned be the UN).


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

Pliskin said:


> (Though the headline overstates the case a little, should add 'might' or 'could')



I agree. Almost added a "[could be]", but then highlighted the crucial part in the text and added the german source instead.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Because the massive protests and increasing malnutrition and infant mortality rate are things that make you consider the possibility of Maduro _gaining _in popularity I guess.


Depends on who they blame. When you see how eagerly the US backed Guaido and how they put a war criminal like Elliott Abrams, "who was linked to failed coup against Chávez", to deal with the issue, and how Bolton already fantasizes how the oil will benefit the US, it becomes obvious that the US was waiting for Maduro to fail. And from there it's not a stretch to think that they did more than just passively wait, but actually had a hand in Maduro's failure. So no, it's not a given that Maduro has less approval than before.


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## San Juan Wolf (Feb 9, 2019)

Son of Goku said:


> Depends on who they blame. When you see how eagerly the US backed Guaido and how they put a war criminal like Elliott Abrams, "who was linked to failed coup against Chávez", to deal with the issue, and how Bolton already fantasizes how the oil will benefit the US, it becomes obvious that the US was waiting for Maduro to fail. And from there it's not a stretch to think that they did more than just passively wait, but actually had a hand in Maduro's failure. So no, it's not a given that Maduro has less approval than before.



Based on what ? Because people starving and dying due to lack of basic medicine while money becomes increasingly worthless with an inflation in the millions of percent are not things anyone else gets to get blamed for, because it's the Goverments job to fix this.

By being unable to fix this they are the leigitmate target of ire and protest.

So unless you can show me who else the affected population can legitimately blame for these events, then yes it is a given Maduro would and should be less popular under any conceivable metric.


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## Son of Goku (Feb 9, 2019)

San Juan Wolf said:


> Based on what ?



Based on the deep rooted suspicions towards the US and their history of meddling and coups and based on the willingness of former Chavez/Maduro voters to blame someone else for this mess than the people who they once supported. Also, a preceived outside threat leading to more support for the government is highly common.


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## RavenSupreme (Feb 9, 2019)

Hm. The Bundestag services are actually well received and reputable. They for example have no trouble calling out the government actually fucking up big time in some major things (E.G. tax spending, energy change etc. depending on the service).

So I would not take this as some form of propagandaist bullshit


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## Island (Feb 9, 2019)

Merged threads. All Venezuela news should go here, @Son of Goku.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2019)

did this  Guaido pig just say that he would support a terrorist campaign (the so-called foreign intervention)  against his
own country?


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## Mider T (Feb 9, 2019)

Hussain said:


> did this  Guaido pig just say that he would support a terrorist campaign (the so-called foreign intervention)  against his
> own country?


Wouldn't be terrorist. Guaido said all options are on the table, hell it's not even a taboo topic among Venezuelans.


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## sworder (Feb 9, 2019)

I clicked on this topic, saw some news article SoG had posted, and decided to google the author of the article just for curiosity

Alexander Rubinstein reported for RT and Sputnik News, a pro Russia network with zero credibility and a government owned Russian news agency

 

He's no better than Chie


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Wouldn't be terrorist.


it will be.

The Americans are not going to any country without
1- destroying the infostructures (by mistake of course )
2- killing civilians (God Forbids intentionally)
3- making jails for torture (whoops, did we just do that? I mean we did not mean 2. )
4- CIA killing on both sides to ignite the war further

...etc

But it must have been the barbaric regime!   
it must be changed (with our puppet) for freedom and democracy 


it's in the Venezuelans's best interest not to be naive... 
the price of resisting the colonists is always lower than the price of being enslaved. U_U



Thank you.


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## Mider T (Feb 9, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it will be.
> 
> The Americans are not going to any country without
> 1- destroying the infostructures (by mistake of course )
> ...


You realize the American military are regular guests in Eastern European nations during their elections to dissuade cyber attacks and racketeering right?  Countries come out better for it.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> You realize the American military are regular guests in Eastern European nations during their elections to dissuade cyber attacks and racketeering right?  Countries come out better for it.


EU is US's lapdog and they do what they are told to do. So, no reason to make a "regime change". 
They are already submissive to the american's will/imperialism.  

So, not the same scenario... U_U


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## Mider T (Feb 9, 2019)

Hussain said:


> EU is US's lapdog and they do what they are told to do. So, no reason to make a "regime change".
> They are already submissive to the american's will/imperialism.
> 
> So, not the same scenario... U_U


Wat.  Nope, these countries like the Baltic States, invite the US to come in and help protect their sovereignty from actual meddling powers like Russia.  Also sends observers to places democracy is fragile like African countries during transitions of power.

2017 saw a major peaceful transfer of power in Ghana.


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## Trojan (Feb 9, 2019)

Mider T said:


> Wat.  Nope, these countries like the Baltic States, invite the US to come in and help protect their sovereignty from actual meddling powers like Russia.  Also sends observers to places democracy is fragile like African countries during transitions of power.
> 
> 2017 saw a major peaceful transfer of power in Ghana.



Meh, the Americans try to make a "boogeyman" out of someone (like out of Iran in the Gulf) to milk the hell out of those countries for "protection"

Stuff like this





> Also sends observers to places democracy is fragile like African countries during transitions of power.


The Americans support 73% of dictatorship in the world


let's not kid ourselves here, shall we? 
they only oppose dictatorship and want to install a "democracy" when that country is disobedient to the U.S and being "naughty" 

otherwise, the American regime couldn't careless about freedom and democracy if that good cash is flowing...
Heck, look no further than Trump's speeches. He can't complete one sentence without talking about money 



anyway, I will try to go to sleep now....

night'....


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## Mider T (Feb 9, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Meh, the Americans try to make a "boogeyman" out of someone (like out of Iran in the Gulf) to milk the hell out of those countries for "protection"
> 
> Stuff like this
> 
> ...


Except there was a Venezuelan in this thread who gave an actual view of a citizen on how his country views Maduro and Guaido. The only people who seem to want America to stay away aren't citizens of either country and hate the US already, you and SoG.


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## sworder (Feb 9, 2019)

Hussain said:


> anyway, I will try to go to sleep now....
> 
> night'....


enjoy your sleep, knowing fully well you'll be alive tomorrow because America is mostly responsible for you existing in the most peaceful era in human history


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