# Masashi Kishimoto vs. Eiichirō Oda: Who is the better writer?



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 3, 2016)

I'd like Naruto and One Piece readers (people who've read both mangas) to come together in this thread: In this thread, state things Kishimoto has done in terms of his writing style, plot lines, quality of manga, consistency etc which are better than Oda, or do the reverse; say what Oda is doing well that Kishimoto could have done. Who is the better writer overall. I know Kishi was terrible in Part 2 but he was brilliant in Part 1, as oppose to Oda who had the best manga for years, yet i feel that in recent times the quality of One Piece has degraded (albeit slightly). The purpose of this is to compare Naruto to a manga of similar genre and success, and see what Kishimoto did well, and what he could have improved on. Discuss.

[sp=BONUS QUESTION]Is Kishimoto a better writer than Akira Toriyama?
Yes or No? And to what extent?[/sp]


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 3, 2016)

Eiichiro Oda is the superior writer in every aspect, unlike Kishimoto and that's not even a comparison. The problem with Naruto, the series, is that Kishimoto wasn't writing a shonen manga, he wrote about his own issues, insecurities, and problematic values and views in the most self-indulgent and self-absorbed ways possible. He had no regard for character growth or consistency. He had no absolutely no idea of what's a healthy message to deliver children.

The only reason Part 1 was decent is because Kishimoto's first editor, Kosuke Yahagi, dictated the plot and thematics. It was Kosuke Yahagi who set up the idea as the system as the source of evil and cause of conflicts in his manga. It's very common in shonen to portray authorities as corrupt. But Kishimoto himself has this warped view of patriotic heroism, and bizarre admiration for subservience and an acute fear of change and rebellion. He ended up trying to justify Konoha's fuck-ups and demand unquestioning loyalty and unconditional submission from all the characters to the system.

A lot other bad writing are also down to Kishimoto's own personality:

Kishimoto has an immense thirst for recognition himself, and he didn't realize it's not a good thing. He tried to make people sympathize with this personal trait by giving Naruto, the character, a sob story. Not only that, he tried to make people who didn't  recognize Naruto seem like the bad people, he made Naruto look self-absorbed and entitled. This is not a healthy message.

Kishimoto is also easily jealous and tends to look at talented people as rivals. He said once in an interview that he didn't like people who're good at everything. Rivalry is a very common trope in shonen, the point of writing rivalry between friends is teaching kids what's healthy competition. Naruto never learned that because Kishimoto thinks the only way to settle a rivalry is to make other characters acknowledge his self-insert as superior. His writing is like a make-up fantasy where everyone gives in to his self-insert's emotional needs. Things don't work like that in the real world, you need to learn to accept not everyone looks at you the way you want them to. You need to learn to manage your competitive nature and not let it ruin your interpersonal relationship.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Veris (Feb 3, 2016)

This thread can go on to infinity with complaints and suggestions. Oda is the overall better writer, but I'll put something in favor of Kishi here- Oda's arcs can get repetitive. They follow a general formula that typically go: 

1. Straw hats arrive on an island
2. Explore the island to get a feel for the setting
3. Meet an oppressed person and/or group
4. Introduce the main villian (who typically has some kind of complex) and important supporting characters for both sides
5. The Straw hats vow to help the oppressed
6. There is usually some sort of concealed plot, the middle point is where it begins to unravel, usually through a half-planned, half-improvised scheme
7. Very melodramatic backstory for the oppressed, most often involving the death of someone close
8. The Straw Hats and supporting allies pair off to fight various supporting villians, with Luffy taking on the main villian
9. Roadblocks in the earlier part of the fight, Luffy gets initially defeated, wherein after he gets a power/moral boost and returns to defeat the villian with a final blow
10. The villian's plot and/or true nature gets publicly revealed, the Straw Hats get lauded as heroes and sail off for more adventure. 
There is an overarching plot with the WG that does not fit into this formula, and Marineford is a notable exception, but other arcs are pretty obvious. That is not to say the arcs are bad, as Oda knows how to make a setting unique and fascinating, and characters entertaining. But the repetition is still there. 

Naruto, for all its cons, does not have formulaic arcs. You can find some that are similar in structure, but I haven't found more than two to a formula. Unfortunately, that does not excuse their poor execution.


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## Stan Lee (Feb 3, 2016)

Speaking of repetitive.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 3, 2016)

Also, yes, Toriyama is a better writer than Kishimoto. He keeps his stories as simple and to the point as possible. Not only that, but he's also better character writer unlike Kishimoto, because he's able to write characters without injecting personal bias into them. He's not blindly in love with his characters like Kishimoto is, in that he has Vegeta fail, find fault in himself and eventually get over his own crap or Goku getting beaten half to death, due to idiotic or selfish reasons for his own goals, and ultimately getting killed off to tell the story Toriyama wanted to get rid of him. To Toriyama's credit, that complete disregard for his characters comes from him being a gag comic writer during his run with Dr. Slump back in the 80s, before allowing Dragon Ball to evolve into a pure action series, from an adventure-based serial.

–snip–


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## Tapion (Feb 3, 2016)

Kishimoto is a decent writer. He's just needs a bit of guidance and time to think about what he's doing. Not everyone can pull a Toryiama and make shit up as time goes on. My greatest advice to him would be: Less is more. 

Naruto was interesting because of not only the whole ninja world and what not(which I thought we'd explore to some extent due to the chunin exams) but how the fights relied on slight of hand and small jutsus like substitution and cloning playing a major part in battles. It was not DBZ(in terms of how much they could blow up) and that's what got me into the series in the first place. 

Him trying to make Naruto so grandiose made the series lose the simplicity it had going for it. Sharingan is the perfect example of how retarded the series became. For starters, back in the day Sharingan lets you copy people, see chakra and predict movements. Now, Sharingan gives you a giant mechazord and throws around mountain splitting attacks.

The Bijuu should have been the super weapons of the manga and nothing should have been able to contest it. 

I'd be more interested in learning about the politics of the ninja world and how each village operates than how the ninja world came about in such a biblical manner.

Kishimoto and Oda both take after Toryiama in regards to neglecting characters. Oda isn't so bad though, He just needs to stop treating Nami, Chopper, Brook like dirt.


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## Zensuki (Feb 3, 2016)

Zero Requiem said:


> Speaking of repetitive.



It was never that 1 dimensional or simple though. Only correct representation form that image would be Kaguya's case.


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## Aduro (Feb 3, 2016)

Oda is a far worse writer, the protagonists character development in One Piece for example is like organising a fall off a cliff. Their introduction and flashbacks are the push which might require little thought. But after that its not going anywhere unexpected so its dead easy to understand and there's nothing between the fall person and the ground that will alter their direction so Oda doesn't need to put any sign posts on the way. The vast majority of the OP forum is power-level discussion because the only question is who is falling the fastest with nothing much else to say about it. If you disagree ask yourself this: "Would any decision Luffy has made since he met Zoro be different if he had the same powers and information but had all of his current character development". Because that's why Luffy and literally every One Piece plot-line is so incredibly boring to me.

In contrast most of the main characters of Naruto have clear moments where they obviously have changed and matured. They go through experiences which change them whereas as Veris has said, in OP they go through the same formulaic sagas over and over again. Some Naruto characters didn't have particularly good development and there's very little for side-characters, but at least Kishi tried changing the personalities of the most important characters rather than just giving them new attacks. Also, the worst thing about Oda is that his main characters constantly recycle slight variations of their running jokes against new gimmicky and forgettable characters who barely matter to the overall story. I mean Sanji's running joke is basically like Brock from pokemon's and even he got taken off the air after he got too predictable for a show made for primary school kids so what does that say about those who still find Sanji funny?

The big argument Oda seems to have going for him is that he's consistent, but I say that's because he knows he would fail to keep anyone interested and open himself up to hate if he tried to make any real changes.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 3, 2016)

it's blatantly oda

not even a contest 

i've only read up to chap 603 of one piece but the sustained quality of one piece going from like baratie to the middle of marineford is like twice as long as the stretch of quality naruto managed in its best days


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## Stan Lee (Feb 3, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Not everyone can pull a Toryiama and make shit up as time goes on. My greatest advice to him would be: Less is more.



Kishi admitted that he made things up as it went on. He didn't even know what Itachi did to make Sasuke want to kill him when it was first mentioned.


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## $Kakashi$ (Feb 3, 2016)

Oda is a better writer, but Kishimoto draw's better.


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## jemmathepintobean (Feb 3, 2016)

Storywise, Oda over Kishi.
Art, Kishi over Oda. Oda's art is pretty ugly, but bearable because story.

Though when it comes to characters I am more attached/ show more emotion towards Kishi's. The only characters I love in OP is Zoro, Sanji, and Kid. I don't like Luffy as much.


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## Black Knight (Feb 3, 2016)

This thread must be a really bad joke. It's not even worth voting in the poll because this looks less a question and more flamebait. Not gonna bother with replying because many people have already done so.


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## scerpers (Feb 3, 2016)

neither. one manga has a villain who spent years trying to avenge his dead waifu and was instantly talked out of it by a kid.  the other has a guy who somehow turned himself into a robot powered by soda?

both are shit series being vomit swapped by diseased whores


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## Canute87 (Feb 3, 2016)

Oda is a better writer than kishi.

But then there wasn't really an intention on kishi's end to really carry the manga very far.

A lot of things were half assed especially the jinchuriki.

Not to mention who he went for final villian.

It just seemed that the stakes got too high for him and he just saw an easy way out.


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## Haruka Katana (Feb 3, 2016)

Both are meh in my opinion, I'm not even a fan of OP, it's just that Kishi is the worse writter, so...

Oda I guess.


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## SupremeKage (Feb 3, 2016)

Bring in togashi into this debate


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## Trojan (Feb 3, 2016)

Each of them has some aspects that he is bitter at than the other. However, I think Oda handled his story better  overall and did not fuck up as much as Kishi did.


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## Young Lord Minato (Feb 3, 2016)

i have to go with Oda; One Piece doesn't have the problems Naruto has.


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## T-Bag (Feb 4, 2016)

Oda is far better. I just got into one Piece recently and hardly anything looks like an asspull. He seems to know where he was going with his plot for the most part.


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## Zef (Feb 4, 2016)

Don't know who the better writer is, but Oda's art makes my eyes bleed so Kishi by default.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 4, 2016)

Poll is done in the Nardo section......and Kishi still loses 

Well done guys


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## Mizura (Feb 4, 2016)

Oh come on, Kishimoto is a great designer, but he's a shit writer. He comes up with interesting and compelling characters and world designs, then he doesn't know what to do with them so it's one convert-no-jutsu after the next.

The support cast got sidelined.
The complex shinobi issues somehow got resolved through a war against zombies and trees (and a rabbit with a shadow pilot thingy).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## sasykei (Feb 4, 2016)

Kishimoto is better. The depth of Naruto series an the fact that Naeuto and Sasuke are multi-layered characters with by far more development than all One Piece characters combined speaks for itself. The plot only told the story it wanted to tell instead of dragging the series down with itself. There are no unnecessary sideplots in Naruto to waste the readers time with. 
Next; the villains. I feel like this is self-explanatory, but Naruto has By FAR the best villains in anime/manga ever. The sadness of Zabuza. The heart-wrenching truth behind Pein. The amazing Madara (biggest BA ever), the final villain and strongest character being a female (Oda is sexist), and finally, Tobi I can't even put to words the masterpiece Masashi Kishimoto created with Tobi. What we have here, is without a doubt, fanrastic storytelling. The fact that the whole story for hundreds of chapters builds up to that one moment, the reveal of Tobi os in dact, Obito. The COUNTLESS theories every day... 
"Naruto" ended an era in anime and manga history.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 4, 2016)

Bruh...turn your troll down just a little next time.


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## Vivo Diez (Feb 4, 2016)

First few arcs of Naruto triumph One Piece's best arcs. Everything towards the end of Pain arc and after is a turd that makes Fishman island look like gold.

Both became really bad offenders of trying to pull on the the readers heart strings. Kishi is better at being smart and subtle when it came to sentimental stuff, but that went out the drain once Sasuke's and Naruto's gay romance became the center-fold of the manga. Oda just creates the worst possible scenarios for characters so we feel for them, but I don't know if its because I've become jaded or what, but DD's and Law's backstories didn't do anything for me.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm busy now but when I get home I'll reply to all this
I have some good input for this debate


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## Meat (Feb 4, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I'm busy now but when I get home I'll reply to all this
> I have some good input for this debate



Don't waste your time debating on this bait/troll thread.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 4, 2016)

Meat said:


> Don't waste your time debating on this bait/troll thread.



I made this thread so of course I'm goinng to evaluate it
I'm the one that raised this question in the first place
Just because someone else has an opinion different to you it doesn't mean it is bait or trolling
When someone says Itachi > Orochimaru it doesn't hurt my feelings just because I don't agree


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 4, 2016)

Oda can write comedy better. Kishimoto is better at everything else.


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## Marik Swift (Feb 4, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> First few arcs of Naruto triumph One Piece's best arcs. Everything towards the end of Pain arc and after is a turd that makes Fishman island look like gold.


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## Skywalker (Feb 4, 2016)

Kubo, obviously.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm almost home so I'll reply to the arguments soon
And yeah we discussed Kishimoto and Toriyama as a sub discussion so shall we discuss Kubo Tite as well? Y'all should if you want to?


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## Kuzan (Feb 4, 2016)

Look at the author who's being praised by his fans, and who gets hated:rofl


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## Lucaniel (Feb 4, 2016)

sasykei said:


> Kishimoto is better. The depth of Naruto series an the fact that Naeuto and Sasuke are multi-layered characters with by far more development than all One Piece characters combined speaks for itself. The plot only told the story it wanted to tell instead of dragging the series down with itself. There are no unnecessary sideplots in Naruto to waste the readers time with.
> Next; the villains. I feel like this is self-explanatory, but Naruto has By FAR the best villains in anime/manga ever. The sadness of Zabuza. The heart-wrenching truth behind Pein. The amazing Madara (biggest BA ever), the final villain and strongest character being a female (Oda is sexist), and finally, Tobi I can't even put to words the masterpiece Masashi Kishimoto created with Tobi. What we have here, is without a doubt, fanrastic storytelling. The fact that the whole story for hundreds of chapters builds up to that one moment, the reveal of Tobi os in dact, Obito. The COUNTLESS theories every day...
> "Naruto" ended an era in anime and manga history.


hahahahaha

by FAR the best villains, EVER

girl power kaguya

this is great


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## Kazekage Gaara (Feb 4, 2016)

Did someone say Oda is sexist and Kishimoto isn't?


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## Lucaniel (Feb 4, 2016)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Did someone say Oda is sexist and Kishimoto isn't?



yeah, because kaguya

she was the final villain and she was stronk

therefore kishi is not sexist


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## Jagger (Feb 4, 2016)

I honestly think saying the entire character of Tobi was a "masterpiece" is even worse, tbh


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## Balalaika (Feb 4, 2016)

Oda, by a long shot. I remember being more affected by the loss of Merry (a ship) then anything Naruto presented me with, especially in part two.


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## Reyes (Feb 4, 2016)

sasykei said:


> Kishimoto is better. The depth of Naruto series an the fact that *Naeuto and Sasuke are multi-layered characters* with by far more development than all One Piece characters combined speaks for itself. *The plot only told the story it wanted to tell instead of dragging the series down with itself*. There are no unnecessary sideplots in Naruto to waste the readers time with.
> Next; the villains. I feel like this is self-explanatory, but Naruto has By FAR the best villains in anime/manga ever. The sadness of Zabuza.* The heart-wrenching truth behind Pein. The amazing Madara* (biggest BA ever),* the final villain and strongest character being a female (Oda is sexist)*, and finally, *Tobi I can't even put to words the masterpiece Masashi Kishimoto created with Tobi*. What we have here, is without a doubt, fanrastic storytelling. The fact that the whole story for hundreds of chapters builds up to that one moment, the reveal of Tobi os in dact, Obito. The COUNTLESS theories every day...
> *"Naruto" ended an era in anime and manga history*.


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## heartsutra (Feb 4, 2016)

Moving a bunch of off-topic posts to the Library Convo.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> yeah, because kaguya
> 
> she was the final villain and she was stronk
> 
> therefore kishi is not sexist



Exactly. Tsuande werent bad either.

Oda turned Hancock into a PIS/CIS character cos he dont want a woman with hax ability to live up to her potential
If Oda aint sexist why do all his fans think Big Mom is the weakest Yonko?


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## Seraphiel (Feb 4, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Exactly. Tsuande werent bad either.
> 
> Oda turned Hancock into a PIS/CIS character cos he dont want a woman with hax ability to live up to her potential
> If Oda aint sexist why do all his fans think Big Mom is the weakest Yonko?



this is quite the spicy mem my friend


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## balthosai (Feb 4, 2016)

i've never even read one piece.


but i honestly can't fathom a manga writer being worst than kishi.


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## Keishin (Feb 4, 2016)

The 8th gate of Death...
Lol.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Feb 4, 2016)

Keishin said:


> The 8th gate of Death...
> Lol.



And that exactly is the main problem of Kishimoto. He makes techniques that kill the user, takes chapters and chapters of buildup for that power, does a flashback for the character who is about to die and then after he uses that technique and you expect him to stay dead, Kishi always finds a way to revive him. 

He is afraid to kill of his own characters. I am really surprised he didn't revive Neji and Asuma. By the end of the war a lot more characters should have died, seriously why do you even need the old Gokages after the war? They will soon die a natural death, might as well kill them against Madara...


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## Lucaniel (Feb 4, 2016)

all those shit characters survived and he permanently killed off neji

RIP


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> all those shit characters survived and he permanently killed off neji
> 
> RIP



because of shipping no less as stated by kishimoto


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## Lucaniel (Feb 4, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> because of shipping no less as stated by kishimoto



does that imply he thought neji might romantically stand in the way of naruto and hinata, despite the i*c*st problem?


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## Kazekage Gaara (Feb 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> does that imply he thought neji might romantically stand in the way of naruto and hinata, despite the i*c*st problem?



Although what you said was funny, he probably killed him off because he just couldn't find a woman for him, though Kiba doesn't have one either. Still, it's the worst reason possible to kill a character who was as popular and good as Neji.


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## heartsutra (Feb 4, 2016)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> And that exactly is the main problem of Kishimoto. He makes techniques that kill the user, takes chapters and chapters of buildup for that power, does a flashback for the character who is about to die and then after he uses that technique and you expect him to stay dead, Kishi always finds a way to revive him.



Plenty of people died along the way, including popular characters such as Itachi and Jiraiya. Chiyo had to give her life to revive Gaara. However, it did get weirder the closer it got to the end of the Manga.

Dragon Ball is worse in this regard, however.
Not familiar all that much with One Piece.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> does that imply he thought neji might romantically stand in the way of naruto and hinata, despite the i*c*st problem?



nah, as much as i like the idea of neji being the cockblock

what i mean is that kishimoto promptly admitted in an interview that he killed off neji as the screw who keeps naruto and hinata together, he killed neji off as a cupid to hook naruto and hinata together


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## Kazekage Gaara (Feb 4, 2016)

braveheart said:


> Plenty of people died along the way, including popular characters such as Itachi and Jiraiya. Chiyo had to give her life to revive Gaara. However, it did get weirder the closer it got to the end of the Manga.
> 
> Dragon Ball is worse in this regard, however.
> Not familiar all that much with One Piece.



Well sure, but Itachi was bound to die from the beginning of the manga due to Sasuke being a main character and wanting to kill him since he was introduced and all that. We all knew he was gonna die eventually. Chiyo wasn't really all that important character meta wise. She was important for one arc, doubt we would have even seen her again after that even if she stayed alive.

I'm talking about characters who have been in the story since the beginning.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 4, 2016)

itachi is a pretty bad example cuz kishi brought him back

not permanently, but it was a pretty clear case of just can't let go


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## Garcher (Feb 4, 2016)

Oda is the most overrated mangaka ever, that's for sure

his pacing is awful, the narrative is repetitive, the characters lack depth and are uninteresting, the protagonist has no solid foundation in the story

 he isn't bullshitting like war arc Kishi, so what? Does it mean Oda is better because his work is less sophisticated?


won't even start talking about the visual presentation which just as important, Oda is mostly coming up with awful designs since the TS


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## Meat (Feb 4, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I made this thread so of course I'm goinng to evaluate it
> I'm the one that raised this question in the first place
> Just because someone else has an opinion different to you it doesn't mean it is bait or trolling
> When someone says Itachi > Orochimaru it doesn't hurt my feelings just because I don't agree



Oh really? Whatever. Like I said, this is a troll/bait thread so I don't bother to read the OP. Im just here for the reactions. But seeing that the votes are not a one-sided in favor of Oda and the reactions are 'meh', this troll/bait thread is just a 'meh' thread. So nothing to see here.


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## Yachiru (Feb 4, 2016)

^^I have to agree. Kishi pulled off major bullshit but at least the story is somewhat deep.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 4, 2016)

GARcher said:


> Oda is the most overrated mangaka ever, that's for sure
> 
> his pacing is awful, the narrative is repetitive, the characters lack depth and are uninteresting, the protagonist has no solid foundation in the story



Character development is overrated. I keep hearing the animanga fandom like to talk about character development quite a lot, but I think most animanga series are story-driven. You can get away with some of the most one-dimensional and static characters if you can write intrigues, create tension and excitement. Take Dragon Ball or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as an example. 

Another thing is, the majority of people think character development means that the characters themselves change over the course of the story. I always thought it simply meant how the writer develop their characters, like how an artist develops their work from sketches and linearts to coloring, shading, textures and layers. It's the same with writing a character, first you write about factual and basic things like appearances, backgrounds and goals, then you add personalities through actions and interpersonal relationships. Then you flesh them out a bit more with internal monologue. A change in personality or point of view is just one form of development. Some characters are already developed when they are introduced in the sense that the characters themselves don't change into a different person, it's your perception of the characters' change as the writer lets you see different sides of the following character. 



> he isn't bullshitting like war arc Kishi, so what? Does it mean Oda is better because his work is less sophisticated?



yes



> won't even start talking about the visual presentation which just as important, Oda is mostly coming up with awful designs since the TS



Then I guess you're the same sort of person who hates artistic styles like Looney Tunes, Walt Disney and Peter Max, right?


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## Tapion (Feb 4, 2016)

Oda knows what he can handle and usually doesn't experiment too much. He sticks to his strengths and his formulas work, so he reuses them..A few arcs have the same premise and play out in the same fashion, and in an unsettling order as well. Dressrosa being an eerie parallel of Alabastaa for example. 

Kishi attempted some philosophical bullshit. He went outside of his ballpark and failed. Also, the thought never came to him in part two that he was neglecting his characters?


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## Lucaniel (Feb 4, 2016)

> You can get away with some of the most one-dimensional and static characters if you can write intrigues, create tension and excitement. Take Dragon Ball or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as an example.


i don't know that i would describe anything in dragon ball as an intrigue

or intriguing


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> i don't know that i would describe anything in dragon ball as an intrigue
> 
> or intriguing



Why not? Battle of Gods was intriguing. I loved the Beerus fight. When I first watched the movie, I initially thought it was just another fanservice where Goku would wreck everyone, but having him lose was extremely refreshing and his actions during the fight really encompassed his character.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 4, 2016)

Character balancing ......Oda Wins

Story Consistency.......Oda Wins

Comedy....... Oda wins

Inter-laying themes and Storylines (+ foreshadowing)......Oda Wins

Creativity / World-building......Oda wins

Character Interactiveness ......Oda wins

Art-style.......(entirely subjective).......Kishi wins for Character/body art.......Oda wins for Background Art and Art variation/creativity


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## Louis-954 (Feb 4, 2016)

Oda 100%, no questions asked. Oda's world building blows Kishi out of the water and he actually cares about his side cast unlike Kishi.


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## Vivo Diez (Feb 5, 2016)

braveheart said:


> Plenty of people died along the way, including popular characters such as Itachi and Jiraiya. Chiyo had to give her life to revive Gaara. However, it did get weirder the closer it got to the end of the Manga.
> 
> Dragon Ball is worse in this regard, however.
> Not familiar all that much with One Piece.



Just mention *Pell* to any One Piece fan if you want an example of a character not dying just because Oda wanted to wrap the arc up in a happy way.

He's started doing this more and more, he keeps baiting with character deaths only to find out the character is fine the chapter after.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 5, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> Just mention *Pell* to any One Piece fan if you want an example of a character not dying just because Oda wanted to wrap the arc up in a happy way.
> 
> He's started doing this more and more, he keeps baiting with character deaths only to find out the character is fine the chapter after.



that isn't a like-to-like comparison

one piece has a different tone and a different premise


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 5, 2016)

Meat said:


> Oh really? Whatever. Like I said, this is a troll/bait thread so I don't bother to read the OP. Im just here for the reactions. But seeing that the votes are not a one-sided in favor of Oda and the reactions are 'meh', this troll/bait thread is just a 'meh' thread. So nothing to see here.



*Spoiler*: __ 







As I said, its not bait. Its actually a good debate to have. If you're so mad then why did you read either of these mangas? Be happy lol.



Vivo Diez said:


> Just mention *Pell* to any One Piece fan if you want an example of a character not dying just because Oda wanted to wrap the arc up in a happy way.
> 
> He's started doing this more and more, he keeps baiting with character deaths only to find out the character is fine the chapter after.



Exactly. Its poor writing. He did it with Trafalgar Law, Rebecca. My good lord Oda _*has*_ been annoying me recently.


----------



## Louis-954 (Feb 5, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> Just mention *Pell* to any One Piece fan if you want an example of a character not dying just because Oda wanted to wrap the arc up in a happy way.
> 
> He's started doing this more and more, he keeps baiting with character deaths only to find out the character is fine the chapter after.


Vergo and Monet died on Punk Hazard.


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## Vivo Diez (Feb 5, 2016)

Louis-954 said:


> Vergo and Monet died on Punk Hazard.


I don't have problems with the lack of character deaths.

I have problems when characters are either clearly supposed to die and don't, or at the end of a chapter the author baits that a certain character will die but then he's fine the chapter after.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 5, 2016)

Louis-954 said:


> Vergo and Monet died on Punk Hazard.



So f*cking what lol? They're irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. We mean main characters that we would be sad to see go. We were all happy when Vergo and Monet died ... right?


----------



## Balalaika (Feb 5, 2016)

So like Ace then? Not a main character, but he and Edward Newgate were both allies of the main group and well liked characters.


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## Louis-954 (Feb 5, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> So f*cking what lol? *They're irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.* We mean main characters that we would be sad to see go. We were all happy when Vergo and Monet died ... right?


Pell is relevant?  

You weren't sad to see Ace or Whitebeard kick the bucket?


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## Reyes (Feb 5, 2016)

Balalaika said:


> So like Ace then? Not a main character, but he and Edward Newgate were both allies of the main group and well liked characters.



Hell Ace is one of the most popular characters been in the top 10 since his intro.

8 in the first, 10th in his second poll, 5th in the third and even after his death he is still 6th most popular.


----------



## Yahiko (Feb 5, 2016)

$Kakashi$ said:


> Oda is a better writer, *but Kishimoto draw's better.*



100% agree


----------



## Punished Kiba (Feb 5, 2016)

When it comes to character deaths....Kishimoto uses Deaths as devices for other characters (either for power-ups , development or pointless pairing baiting like Neji's)

With Oda, he rarely does character deaths, because he always has some use for their characters in some shape or form. (instances like Ace and Whitebeard being the exception as it lead to Huge turning points in the story).

When Kishi wanted to mimic Oda's success with a War-arc.....he probably realised that that he has limited amount of enemies still alive....thus did the mass Edo tensei of the dead. (also a cheap tactic of reviving a few fan favourites).

Oda doesn't need mass death to advance the story...but apparently Kishi did 

Again this all links to Character Balancing (which Kishi Sucks at)

PS: Lastly, the tones in each series are different since Ninjas are literally trained to Kill.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 5, 2016)

Louis-954 said:


> Pell is relevant?
> 
> You weren't sad to see Ace or Whitebeard kick the bucket?



Pell was an ally of the strawhats. When he "died' people were upset and looked to him as a hero even if he wasnt that important. He saved Albasta. No one cares about Vergo and Monet. Monet is sSugar's sister but did we see Sugar mourning her dead sister the next morning? Lol. She was chilling with big daddy aka Doffy like a video vixen and eating grapes on the couch. She didnt cae so why would we. You mean to tell me you felt nothing when Pell died? if not you aint a true One Piece fan.


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## Veris (Feb 5, 2016)

Louis-954 said:


> Vergo and Monet died on Punk Hazard.



They'll be back.

They always come back. 



GARcher said:


> Oda is the most overrated mangaka ever, that's for sure
> 
> his pacing is awful, the narrative is repetitive, the characters lack depth and are uninteresting, the protagonist has no solid foundation in the story
> 
> ...



Oda is better because he is consistent, in just about every aspect. Themes, characters, world, intention. Oda made a primarly entertaining comic that was not only meant to appeal to teenage boys, but also the weary salaryman looking to relax. It's the reason no one ever stays dead (barring Ace and WB), and for all of its run that notion has not changed. 

Also, what do you mean by 'no solid foundation' in the story?


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## Louis-954 (Feb 5, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Pell was an ally of the strawhats. When he "died' people were upset and looked to him as a hero even if he wasnt that important. He saved Albasta. No one cares about Vergo and Monet. Monet is sSugar's sister but did we see Sugar mourning her dead sister the next morning? Lol. *She was chilling with big daddy aka Doffy like a video vixen and eating grapes on the couch.* *She didnt cae so why would we.* You mean to tell me you felt nothing when Pell died? if not you aint a true One Piece fan.


Monet wasn't even dead at that point... in fact, Monet was on the phone with Doflamingo at that very moment. Shows how much you pay attention.  Mr. "true One Piece fan."


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 5, 2016)

tfw even the naruto section vastly prefers oda over kishimoto


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## Language of Life (Feb 5, 2016)

GARcher said:


> Oda is the most overrated mangaka ever, that's for sure
> 
> his pacing is awful, the narrative is repetitive, the characters lack depth and are uninteresting, the protagonist has no solid foundation in the story
> 
> ...



Not even close. Im sure he is overrated by some people; but he generally deserves the praise he gets. 

He does fuck up, that's true.

His pacing is inconsistent. Some arcs he nails it, (Shabondy, ID, W7/EL) others he flounders terribly (FI,DR). He crawls sometimes but almost never rushes. 

His arc narratives are being rehashed with small variations in Part 2, that's obvious. But in the grand scheme of the manga, his story telling is vast, interesting, engaging, and casts a wide net. That is why he keeps so many hooked. 

Almost all of his main characters have well presented backstory's and motivations. Depth is not the problem with his characters. Interest is a matter of opinion but if you asked me the only thing one could ask for more of in his characters is development. Even then he does develop some; like the way he turned Robin from the badass assassin into crew Mom. Not all development is good 

Your last point is the only one that is blatantly false. The main protagonist is the grandson of one of the most celebrated Marines in the story, the Son of a man that is going to be one of the biggest drivers of the story toward endgame, and he's part of an elite group of mysterious but powerful individuals behind one of the biggest mysteries in the entire story; Will of D. On top of that he has the only woman in the world capable of discovering what  truly happened in the Void century and a man who could build one of the three great war machines from memory under his command. Luffy has so much to stand on he could never fall.

Oda's biggest problems are size and speed. He has built a massive world and if DR is any indication he may very well fail to deliver it all and do it well. That and the inconsistent/slow pacing are his biggest downfalls as a writer. 
Actually, we can add that shit stain Foxy and the Davey Back bullshit to the list of Oda's biggest downfalls. In fact we can move that to the top of the list. It was just......terrible. 

As for who do I think does it better. Oda.
He's the man with the plan, and although he hits bumps and pot holes in the road, he's done a good job of getting us to the end of that road so far and doing it well. 
Kishi was the man with no plan and asspulled his way through the second half of his story to give him more time to milk that cash cow. Part 1 was great though; last arc was different, but still relatively solid.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 5, 2016)

> Actually, we can add that shit stain Foxy and the Davey Back bullshit to the list of Oda's biggest downfalls. In fact we can move that to the top of the list. It was just......terrible.


hey cmon now
that arc lasted like 15 chapters and it was blatantly a comedic interlude after the 2real aokiji fight where they all nearly died




plus, afro luffy


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## Aduro (Feb 5, 2016)

Language of Life said:


> Almost all of his main characters have well presented backstory's and motivations. Depth is not the problem with his characters. Interest is a matter of opinion but if you asked me the only thing one could ask for more of in his characters is development. Even then he does develop some; like the way he turned Robin from the badass assassin into crew Mom. Not all development is good


See there's my big problem with Oda's writing. Oda seems to come up with characters he wants and come up with backstories that suit them for one arc, but then just leaves them largely unchanged. What made a character in the past can be interesting for maybe one arc, but if they're obviously not gonna change in the future then what's the point in paying attention? On the other hand there were always questions of how far Naruto characters like Sasuke would change. Looking back there were constant moments of doubt over whether or not Naruto could forgive Pein,  or how he'd deal with Sasuke being a target of the Raikage. How Shikamaru could deal with Asuma's death, whether Sasuke could ever return. I just don't get that with characters like Zoro.



> Oda's biggest problems are size and speed. He has built a massive world and if DR is any indication he may very well fail to deliver it all and do it well. That and the inconsistent/slow pacing are his biggest downfalls as a writer.


Honestly that's something that bugs me too. He built a world full of craziness and he obviously is great at drawing huge fantasy landscapes in big detail. But the problem with that is that characters and readers should be acclimatised to it by now. I mean shouldn't meeting a mermaid or a giant in One Piece be about as shocking as meeting a foreigner in a foreign country is in a real world? But the strawhats always looks just as shocked at  everything like they've never seen these people in media like magazines or newspapers before when they logically should have. It would be like going "OMG A MONSTER!" everytime you met someone who had a different skin colour.

The worst example is the giants, I mean after the two fighting on that island over and over that was proof that there are giants huge compared to anyone, so really Oda should stop recycling that shock value over and over by introducing bigger giants like Oars and Blackbeard's giant. This is made a bigger problem when regular-sized characters like Zoro are super strong already so the size really doesn't matter (giggity?)


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## Language of Life (Feb 5, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> hey cmon now
> that arc lasted like 15 chapters and it was blatantly a comedic interlude after the 2real aokiji fight where they all nearly died
> 
> 
> ...



It happened before the Aokiji fight though!!
Placing in the story does not make it any less shitty. Im admittedly salty though. I still cannot fathom that being cannon; despite how silly the rest of the story can be. It was just that bad to me.



Aduro said:


> See there's my big problem with Oda's writing. Oda seems to come up with characters he wants and come up with backstories that suit them for one arc, but then just leaves them largely unchanged. What made a character in the past can be interesting for maybe one arc, but if they're obviously not gonna change in the future then what's the point in paying attention? On the other hand there were always questions of how far Naruto characters like Sasuke would change. Looking back there were constant moments of doubt over whether or not Naruto could forgive Pein,  or how he'd deal with Sasuke being a target of the Raikage. How Shikamaru could deal with Asuma's death, whether Sasuke could ever return. I just don't get that with characters like Zoro.
> 
> 
> Honestly that's something that bugs me too. He built a world full of craziness and he obviously is great at drawing huge fantasy landscapes in big detail. But the problem with that is that characters and readers should be acclimatised to it by now. I mean shouldn't meeting a mermaid or a giant in One Piece be about as shocking as meeting a foreigner in a foreign country is in a real world? But the strawhats always looks just as shocked at  everything like they've never seen these people in media like magazines or newspapers before when they logically should have. It would be like going "OMG A MONSTER!" everytime you met someone who had a different skin colour.
> ...



Oda tends to replace actual character development with character interactions and relationships. I agree, development is a  weakness, just not one that bothers me that much. Stories like Naruto are very character driven. One Piece is not, so Oda can get away with deep backstories but shallower characterization thereafter. He does change characters though. He just does not spend to much focus on it, so development can seem random or forced at times. 
Zoro is a special case. Of all the main characters he lacks  the most meaningful interaction and or just straight up panel time showing his relationships with others. He is even more undeveloped than most going by character. I just think it makes him boring. 

In manga goofyness is just Oda's style. He does things sillier than most. It's also a reason he does not seriously delve in development because it becomes too serious. He saves the serious shit for only very specific moments. So all the reactions, no matter how acclimated they should be, or going to have some level of silliness. As a reader its up to you if you like it or not. I don't mind most times, sometimes I do.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 5, 2016)

> It happened before the Aokiji fight though!!


oh then...then rip

idk tho davy back didn't bother me much because the goofiness just made sense to me in the context of op. plus, short


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## Skilatry (Feb 5, 2016)

I'll never understand why people like One Piece, the only thing I like about it is Nami's slutty design and that's only when she keeps her mouth shut because her personality is insufferable. Then again, every character in One Piece is insufferable. The characters can't even be considered characters, they are gimmicks.

Luffy's character can be described in 4 points:

- Nakama
- Adventure
- Meat
- One Piece

That's it, thats all there is to him, on top of the fact that he's incredibly obnoxious and you've got one terrible character. The same goes for every character in One Piece, they have a few quirks and scream all the time and that's it. Except Robin who's about as interesting as watching paint dry.

If the characters were better I might be able to enjoy it, hell I might even enjoy it greatly, but if the characters are crap I really can't get into something. I like seeing characters that actually develop like human beings, Luffy is going to be the same retard when he finds one piece as he was in chapter 1.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 5, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> I'll never understand why people like One Piece, the only thing I like about it is Nami's slutty design and that's only when she keeps her mouth shut because her personality is insufferable. Then again, every character in One Piece is insufferable. The characters can't even be considered characters, they are gimmicks.
> 
> Luffy's character can be described in 4 points:
> 
> ...



Naruto can summarised into one point:

- "_Please acknowledge me everyone.....you too sasuke_"

Naruto's entire character throughout the 700 chapters can be summarised around this one phrase. 

Luffy is famous for being a straightforward, simpleton that gives no f*cks for his opponents and most people outside of his Nakama...which is where his appeal lies.

Unlike Naruto, comedy is another strong aspect of One Piece so Character gags/quirks will *Always* be part of the series....expecting luffy to lose his idiocy just ain't gonna happen. 

All the strawhats have individual goals /dreams that they're aiming towards....Unlike Naruto where it's just..."Hokage!", Peace!, Hokage!, Peace!,....N-Naruto-kun". 
OP characters tend to vary in personality and ideals....unlike Naruto where practically all the characters started to wank /cheer-lead Naruto and Sasuke. e.g. In part 2, when ever Gaara or K11 appeared, most of the time it's just them wanking Naruto...pathetic.

PS: Naruto is dumber than Luffy......and even The Last movie confirmed that Naruto is far dumber than Luffy anyway. Lol, when you mistake "Love" with the "love for ramen", that's when you know you're fucking dumbass, Naruto


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 5, 2016)

One Piece was never aiming to be a thought provoking narrative. It was DB with pirates. Comedy, action, adventure, and a few dramatic moments.

Kishimoto took it upon himself to introduce themes and character set ups that he was ill prepared to develop or deliver on, an so his failure was magnified by a significant margin.

Personally speaking, Kishimoto's writing in part 2 is just embarrassing to read the further along it goes.


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## Skilatry (Feb 5, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> Naruto can summarised into one point:
> 
> - "_Please acknowledge me everyone.....you too sasuke_"
> 
> ...



Naruto's character changes as time goes on, you can see how he went from a brat at the start to being far more mature during the Pain arc, can you imagine Naruto at the start of the series having the same conversation he had with Nagato during the Pain arc? Obviously not. That's progression, something Luffy will never have.

If you think wan piss comedy is funny, you're probably as smart as Luffy.

They have goals, wow, how amazing. Pretty much every character in shonen has a goal.

Implying everyone doesn't wank Luffy.

Using a retconned filler movie doesn't count.


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## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> Naruto's character changes as time goes on, you can see how he went from a brat at the start to being far more mature during the Pain arc, can you imagine Naruto at the start of the series having the same conversation he had with Nagato during the Pain arc? Obviously not. That's progression, something Luffy will never have.
> 
> If you think wan piss comedy is funny, you're probably as smart as Luffy.
> 
> ...


I had you pegged for a naruto fan. 

theres hardly any development for naruto's character change at all. All we have is time skips and then he changes some. Naruto still acts like a goofy moron at the end of Part two all the same.


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## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

I  at people who say shit like "One Piece was suppose to be about fun and adventure" so it shouldn't be taken as seriously as Naruto.

You're pretty much saying that a crappy drawing shouldn't be called crappy because the artist said they wanted to make it crappy.

You're pretty much insulting Oda by saying he isn't capable of deeper plots. Funny how Fairy Tail gets criticized for such things but One Piece doesn't. ​


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## Six (Feb 6, 2016)

Does it really matter? I mean compared to Togashi they're both extremely crappy writers. With that said, Oda is a better writer than Togashi. One Piece as an overall/overarching story is far better than Naruto. While the overall story might be better, the way Oda executes each and every arc minus a few is extremely predictable.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> I  at people who say shit like "One Piece was suppose to be about fun and adventure" so it shouldn't be taken as seriously as Naruto.
> 
> You're pretty much saying that a crappy drawing shouldn't be called crappy because the artist said they wanted to make it crappy.
> 
> You're pretty much insulting Oda by saying he isn't capable of deeper plots. Funny how Fairy Tail gets criticized for such things but One Piece doesn't. ​



you've completely misunderstood what they mean by that


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## Tapion (Feb 6, 2016)

Has it ever occurred to any of you that togashi has a shit load of time to plan and write his shit? I think Naruto would have been a lot better if Kishi did his fans dirty like togashi, the down side is that it wouldn't be finished.


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## Platypus (Feb 6, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> Using a retconned filler movie doesn't count.



None of it got retconned

None of it was filler

What are you talking about?


----------



## Keishin (Feb 6, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Has it ever occurred to any of you that togashi has a shit load of time to plan and write his shit? I think Naruto would have been a lot better if Kishi did his fans dirty like togashi, the down side is that it wouldn't be finished.



Every HxH arc is different from the rest since the beginning though. It's not just the unpredictable writing and characters that differ it from the rest.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> I'll never understand why people like One Piece, the only thing I like about it is Nami's slutty design and that's only when she keeps her mouth shut because her personality is insufferable. Then again, every character in One Piece is insufferable. The characters can't even be considered characters, they are gimmicks.
> 
> Luffy's character can be described in 4 points:
> 
> ...



I'll never understand why people like Naruto. The only reason people like this series is because the characters are vain and entitled and it's easy to live vicariously through them. Naruto fans aren't interested in anything noble or important, they just want some dumb wish-fulfillment to insure them that, "I’m gonna get laid one day", "You assholes will be my fanboys one day", essentially, this series is a cheap make-up fantasy story for betas.

This is what I like with Naruto fans like you, when people of your kind try to deliver beef to One Piece, you don't seem to know much about the manga and the characters, beyond the general storyline and the Straw Hat Pirates. In contrast, the majority of One Piece fans has adequate amount of knowledge about Naruto to give it beef. Head to the Arlong Park Forums, it's one of the biggest One Piece communities there is. The users mock Naruto and threads pertaining it on a regular basis. Also, you don't know anything about Luffy's character. What makes Luffy compelling, isn't that he is some happy-go-lucky goofball sunshine, it's about _his_ sense of justice, and _his_ desire for freedom and adventures. He could've gotten more information about One Piece from Rayleigh, but he said it'd ruin the fun. He's partly doing it because of the intrigue and the difficulty.

What also makes Luffy compelling is that he comes close to Goku in terms of characterization. Like Goku, Luffy is both selfish and selfless simultaneously. He's an idiot who does whatever he wants, when he wants to. Even his crew acknowledge this aspect of Luffy, and sometimes, they disagree with his decisions. He is not the sort of person who makes rational decisions like Trafalgar Law. Some people might find it irritating how he always managed to get out of the predicaments he got himself into due to his legendary plot luck. But I think he's the main character who deserves his main character privileges, because he has heroic qualities, he has a heart of gold. He fights for people who're oppressed by authorities, he helps strangers who're down and in need for a helping hand. It's not because he wins fights against villains that makes him the hero in the story. It's because he does the right thing despite the cost and risks to himself and his crew.

In contrast, Naruto, the character, doesn't have any positive qualities that can balance out his flaws. He only has flaws. His so-called "empathetic" Talk no Jutsu is actually just an inability to understand people's plights without relating to them. His so-called "forgiveness" is just symptoms of his lack of moral compasses. He's so self-absorbed to the point that he'd rather forgive a mass murderer like Obito and call him the "coolest guy ever" just because his former dream was to become Hokage. Naruto is so inept that he can not grasp the fact that human experiments are wrong, or slavery and the military use of children is a much more pressing matter than his own goals of chasing people's recognition. He became the head of a corrupted imperialist government, and defended the shinobi system rather than challenge it like Sasuke did. In contrast, you will never see Luffy refuse to help the inhabitants on an island who're being fucked by the World Government, because he thinks his own goal of searching for One Piece is more important.


----------



## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> you've completely misunderstood what they mean by that



Nope.

I added that last bit to sure them how easily what they are saying can be an insult to Oda's work. Don't come here with this shit about "it's suppose to be about fun and adventure". Just like every other mangaka, Oda set out to make One Piece the best product he could. Don't be excusing his shortcomings as something entirely intentional on his part.​


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## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

And seriously, somebody please find out whether Kishi killed HoroHoro's family or something.   ​


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## Lucaniel (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> Nope.
> 
> I added that last bit to sure them how easily what they are saying can be an insult to Oda's work. Don't come here with this shit about "it's suppose to be about fun and adventure". Just like every other mangaka, Oda set out to make One Piece the best product he could.​



it _is_ supposed to be about fun and adventure

oda making it the best he could doesn't contradict that

it has a different tone and different subject matter to naruto and so they have to be assessed differently based on how effectively they manage to be good in their own ways


----------



## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> And seriously, somebody please find out whether Kishi killed HoroHoro's family or something.   ​



He bullied me and stole my milk money back in middle school


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## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> it _is_ supposed to be about fun and adventure
> 
> oda making it the best he could doesn't contradict that
> 
> it has a different tone and different subject matter to naruto and so they have to be assessed differently based on how effectively they manage to be good in their own ways



This argument would work if we were discussing genres here, but we are discussing both mangaka's and their respective work on a whole, otherwise you're divulging into a whole other discussion/avoiding the question asked.

It's like if we were comparing milk and juice, you saying "milk is better because it is milkier and can't be compared to juice because it wasn't trying to taste like juice". That doesn't answer what I asked you, it just opens up door for another bias person to counter your argument by saying the same about juice.​


----------



## Lucaniel (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> This argument would work if we were discussing genres here, but we are discussing both mangaka's and their respective work on a whole, otherwise you're divulging into a whole other discussion/avoiding the question asked.
> 
> It's like if we were comparing milk and juice, you saying "milk is better because it is milkier and can't be compared to juice because it wasn't trying to taste like juice". That doesn't answer what I asked you, it just opens up door for another bias person to counter your argument by saying the same about juice.​



no

by assessing how much they each succeed in what they're trying to do, you can decide which one is better


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## Mikon (Feb 6, 2016)

Damn...Togashi must be one the most overrated authors ever. Like, seriously? 
One Piece until the TS shits on HxH big time. 
Oda is better at story-telling, world building, comedy and drama. The action is the only thing that i can think of being inferior to HxH (and that's not a big of a deal, because One Piece fights were never that good to begin with).


----------



## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Does it really matter? I mean compared to Togashi they're both extremely crappy writers. With that said, Oda is a better writer than Togashi. One Piece as an overall/overarching story is far better than Naruto. While the overall story might be better, the way Oda executes each and every arc minus a few is extremely predictable.



I'm confused, you say in comparison to Togashi, both Oda and Kishimoto are terrible writers, then you say shortly after that Oda is a better writer than Togashi?


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## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> no
> 
> by assessing how much they each succeed in what they're trying to do, you can decide which one is better



So by that logic the Twilight books should be considered as good a series of books as, say, _The Great Gatsby_ or _To Kill a Mockingbird_ because it sold well/teenage girls liked it and thus it accomplished what it set out to accomplish?

Again, that doesn't answer the question. You're just diving into an entirely different argument saying stuff like this.​


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## Language of Life (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> So by that logic the Twilight books should be considered as good a series of books as, say, _The Great Gatsby_ or _To Kill a Mockingbird_ because it sold well/teenage girls liked it and thus it accomplished what it set out to accomplish?
> 
> Again, that doesn't answer the question. You're just diving into an entirely different argument saying stuff like this.​



I really don't think it can as definitively decided as objectively as you imply. But im interested; how do you answers OP's question then?


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## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Has it ever occurred to any of you that togashi has a shit load of time to plan and write his shit? I think Naruto would have been a lot better if Kishi did his fans dirty like togashi, the down side is that it wouldn't be finished.



Did kishi not plan the ending?  it was one of worse fictional endings I've ever seen...

Besides he did take breaks to think shit out and it only got worse.  I would say the more time he has the worse off he is.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 6, 2016)

> So by that logic the Twilight books should be considered as good a series of books as, say, The Great Gatsby or To Kill a Mockingbird because it sold well/teenage girls liked it and thus it accomplished what it set out to accomplish?
> 
> Again, that doesn't answer the question. You're just diving into an entirely different argument saying stuff like this.





man, i'm wasting my time here


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## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> So by that logic the Twilight books should be considered as good a series of books as, say, _The Great Gatsby_ or _To Kill a Mockingbird_ because it sold well/teenage girls liked it and thus it accomplished what it set out to accomplish?
> 
> Again, that doesn't answer the question. You're just diving into an entirely different argument saying stuff like this.​



What exactly is your argument? 

According to naruto fans sales does apparently decide it... funny we get to a manga that sales better then all of a sudden sales don't matter.


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## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> What exactly is your argument?
> 
> According to naruto fans sales does apparently decide it... funny we get to a manga that sales better then all of a sudden sales don't matter.


Have you even been following this conversation? 

Moving on.



Language of Life said:


> I really don't think it can as definitively decided as objectively as you imply. But im interested; how do you answers OP's question then?


Never said it could. But creating a bunch of "what ifs" (what if Oda was trying to write a manga that wasn't all about fun/adventure) against the question doesn't answer the question any faster. What matters is the here and now.

Don't see what my answer have to do with anything. If your trying to ask if I'm a fan of Naruto, then no. I haven't care for it for a long time now (before it even ended) and I've since become an active member of the One Piece section. I do consider Kishi the better writer however for a multitude of reasons I don't have the energy to elaborate on.



Lucaniel said:


> man, i'm wasting my time here



Took you six years on NF to realize that. 

Relax more mate. You're in the Naruto section; stop being so touchy.​


----------



## Keishin (Feb 6, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Damn...Togashi must be one the most overrated authors ever. Like, seriously?
> One Piece until the TS shits on HxH big time.
> Oda is better at story-telling, world building, comedy and drama. The action is the only thing that i can think of being inferior to HxH (and that's not a big of a deal, because One Piece fights were never that good to begin with).


OP is not going to be as good as HxH just because you like it more..


----------



## Mikon (Feb 6, 2016)

Keishin said:


> OP is not going to be as good as HxH just because you like it more..



I do like One Piece more, HxH is not even in my top 10, but what that has to do with anything? That's not my reasoning about OP being better than HxH 
What's so good about that series? did i say something incorrect about the things that Oda does better? If so, explain your opinion...


----------



## AceBizzle (Feb 6, 2016)

Both are below-average writers.  I'll give Kishi a very small edge just because he at least tried to create thoughtful themes and stories...


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## Mikon (Feb 6, 2016)

AceBizzle said:


> Both are below-average writers.  I'll give Kishi a very small edge just because he at least tried to create thoughtful themes and stories...



How is Oda on the same par with Kishi? I mean, even at Kishi's prime, he wasn't good like Oda :/
If Oda is below average, then where would you put shows like FMAB, YYH, HXH, Magi and NNT? 
Oda is clearly the best among them, not in everything, but most of the things needed to a story.
I agree that he got pretty shitty after the TS, but chill guys, it's not some War arc Naruto or Arrancar arc Bleach level that Oda is giving us to treat OP like that. (and i don't even like the current One Piece)


----------



## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> Have you even been following this conversation? ​



Yeah, from what I gather you don't have an argument.. Basically there's no such thing as different types of stories? 

You need to keep a measuring stick already.




> I do consider Kishi the better writer however for a multitude of reasons I don't have the energy to elaborate on.


 kishi is better just because? Like people are going to just take your word for it. 


If we were to dive in what kishimoto tried to portray and what he actually showed it's lol worthy.​


----------



## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> I do consider Kishi the better writer however for a multitude of reasons I don't have the energy to elaborate on.



So in other words, you have no idea of why Kishimoto is a better writer than Oda.


----------



## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

AceBizzle said:


> Both are below-average writers.  I'll give Kishi a very small edge just because he at least tried to create thoughtful themes and stories...


TrIed and horribly failed.


----------



## Six (Feb 6, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> I'm confused, you say in comparison to Togashi, both Oda and Kishimoto are terrible writers, then you say shortly after that Oda is a better writer than Togashi?



Lol crap, I meant that Oda is better than Kishimoto


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Feb 6, 2016)

AceBizzle said:


> Both are below-average writers.  I'll give Kishi a very small edge just because he at least tried to create thoughtful themes and stories...



Do you even read One Piece? Oda did too, and succeeded many times in their expression. They didn't come out mangled, broken aesops like in Naruto.


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## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> I'm really not sure if you are just a selective reader or just plain stupid.
> 
> Tip: Take your time and read a thread sometime mate, will safe you future embarrassment.​


 Oh gosh I'm so embarrassed.. 

Bro, your not fooling anyone . 




> Since when did my opinion become the only one that mattered in this thread?  Not sure if I should be honored or afraid of your growing obsession with me.​


 Yeah, man I'm going into your profile I'm so obsessed, I must know more. 

Fuck the point of the thread, at least we are having fun right?


----------



## Keishin (Feb 6, 2016)

Mikon said:


> I do like One Piece more, HxH is not even in my top 10, but what that has to do with anything? That's not my reasoning about OP being better than HxH
> What's so good about that series? did i say something incorrect about the things that Oda does better? If so, explain your opinion...



OP being the leading champion in Shounen Jump automatically makes it a victim of countless other series deteriorating its enjoyment because of the shounen tropes, cliches etc. getting overused even outside the series... True there's alot of worldbuilding. HxH is not really supposed to be a comedic series to begin with, and so it naturally does the opposite (serious) stuff better than One Piece... The drama in OP? Surely you jest. Naruto does the sob stories better while Bleach is more original in the random stuff it does with the drama and it's never sad, and HxH is in the golden middle road of both Naruto and Bleach in how it presents that shit... Gintama is too I think.
And I already said all arcs differ in HxH to avoid the series getting monotonous and it has legitimately unpredictable writing (not like Naruto that just does the opposite of what Kishimoto is hinting at chapter before every time there's a "twist") while let's face it, One Piece is the go-to for a grand scale but still average shonen adventure series that is easy to immerse yourself into.


----------



## Mikon (Feb 6, 2016)

Keishin said:


> OP being the leading champion in Shounen Jump automatically makes it a victim of countless other series deteriorating its enjoyment because of the shounen tropes, cliches etc. getting overused even outside the series... True there's alot of worldbuilding. HxH is not really supposed to be a comedic series to begin with, and so it naturally does the opposite (serious) stuff better than One Piece... The drama in OP? Surely you jest. Naruto does the sob stories better while Bleach is more original in the random stuff it does with the drama and it's never sad, and HxH is in the golden middle road of both Naruto and Bleach in how it presents that shit... Gintama is too I think.
> And I already said all arcs differ in HxH to avoid the series getting monotonous and it has legitimately unpredictable writing (not like Naruto that just does the opposite of what Kishimoto is hinting at chapter before every time there's a "twist") while let's face it, One Piece is the go-to for a grand scale but still average shonen adventure series that is easy to immerse yourself into.



What does it even mean to do better the serious stuff? In terms of action/drama? story-telling in general? 
As i already said, i don't think that HxH does anything better than One Piece, aside from the fighting scenes. Oda knows how to write a story, connect pieces from everywhere to fit into one big storyline.
I don't even remember any big twists being presented in HxH, tbh.
I got really dissapointed with Togashi with his latest arcs. For example, Togashi didn't really knew how to end his "GOAT" arc (Chimera Ant) and just gave us some bullshit deaths (and final fights, if i may) to all of the royal guards, because he made them too OP for the protagonists to defeat. (and Gon's powerup...blah)
Oda at least doesn't go crazy with the power levels in his story, unlike Togashi.

Just for the record, i prefer Gintama over HxH, but can't really say anything objective in that manner, as Gintama is mostly parody/comedy, and gets a true story just in the serious arcs.


----------



## RBL (Feb 6, 2016)

naruto is a piece of shit

one piece is okay

hxh is the best.

you guys can't just compare a retard like kishi with Togashi


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## Skilatry (Feb 6, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> I had you pegged for a naruto fan.
> 
> theres hardly any development for naruto's character change at all. All we have is time skips and then he changes some. Naruto still acts like a goofy moron at the end of Part two all the same.



He regressed post Pain arc admittedly, I hated the war arc. But to say 12 year old Naruto could have had the same conversation with Naruto as Pain arc Naruto is delusional.



Platypus said:


> None of it got retconned
> 
> None of it was filler
> 
> What are you talking about?



Naruto loved Sakura because of Sasuke? Hinata cared about Naruto prior to Iruka? The movie was like an animated fanfic, it was absurd. Besides the ending and everything proceeding it was ridiculous.



HoroHoro said:


> I'll never understand why people like Naruto. The only reason people like this series is because the characters are vain and entitled and it's easy to live vicariously through them. Naruto fans aren't interested in anything noble or important, they just want some dumb wish-fulfillment to insure them that, "I’m gonna get laid one day", "You assholes will be my fanboys one day", essentially, this series is a cheap make-up fantasy story for betas.
> 
> This is what I like with Naruto fans like you, when people of your kind try to deliver beef to One Piece, you don't seem to know much about the manga and the characters, beyond the general storyline and the Straw Hat Pirates. In contrast, the majority of One Piece fans has adequate amount of knowledge about Naruto to give it beef. Head to the Arlong Park Forums, it's one of the biggest One Piece communities there is. The users mock Naruto and threads pertaining it on a regular basis. Also, you don't know anything about Luffy's character. What makes Luffy compelling, isn't that he is some happy-go-lucky goofball sunshine, it's about _his_ sense of justice, and _his_ desire for freedom and adventures. He could've gotten more information about One Piece from Rayleigh, but he said it'd ruin the fun. He's partly doing it because of the intrigue and the difficulty.
> 
> ...



–snip–


----------



## Keishin (Feb 6, 2016)

Mikon said:


> What does it even mean to do better the serious stuff? In terms of action/drama? story-telling in general?
> As i already said, i don't think that HxH does anything better than One Piece, aside from the fighting scenes. Oda knows how to write a story, connect pieces from everywhere to fit into one big storyline.
> I don't even remember any big twists being presented in HxH, tbh.
> I got really dissapointed with Togashi with his latest arcs. For example, Togashi didn't really knew how to end his "GOAT" arc (Chimera Ant) and just gave us some bullshit deaths (and final fights, if i may) to all of the royal guards, because he made them too OP for the protagonists to defeat. (and Gon's powerup...blah)
> ...



CA was boring as hell to me but it still had alot of great moments and the ending broke the mold that all shounen action series including One Piece stick to so think of that... The power level thing is problem in OP also though. Luffy mostly gets stronger after final boss fights in arcs, not because of training...


----------



## Platypus (Feb 6, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> Naruto loved Sakura because of Sasuke? Hinata cared about Naruto prior to Iruka? The movie was like an animated fanfic, it was absurd. Besides the ending and everything proceeding it was ridiculous.



Yes, the movie contradicted previously established stuff but wasn't retconned itself ("Using a *retconned* filler *movie* doesn't count." → Hence the confusion).  Fair enough, that shit was pretty terrible writing indeed. Doesn't make it better when it was iirc Kishimoto who insisted on including those scenes with Sakura. 

He redpenciled the movie script and said that the movie depicts what happens between the last two chapters. Which is why I consider it canon, despite the _fillerish_ vibes I got from it. A story is either canon or not (filler) regardless of its quality.


----------



## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> He regressed post Pain arc admittedly, I hated the war arc. But to say 12 year old Naruto could have had the same conversation with Naruto as Pain arc Naruto is delusional.


I see we agree for the most part then. 

I'm not saying Naruto never changed, I'm saying there is no transition period. We don't really  see how naruto matures he just matures. I can think of a few times where I felt like he had grown through a painful experience but then he pretty much acted no different shortly afterwards.


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## Mikon (Feb 6, 2016)

Keishin said:


> CA was boring as hell to me but it still had alot of great moments and the ending broke the mold that all shounen action series including One Piece stick to so think of that... The power level thing is problem in OP also though. Luffy mostly gets stronger after final boss fights in arcs, not because of training...



I agree with you on some points, i'm just trying to say that HxH is really overrated, because there is nothing that special about it when you compare it to the likes of FMAB/OP. Even Magi and Nanatsu no Taizai has a fair chance against HxH. It's just that Togashi's works don't deserve the hype that they get (YYH included) to my opinion.


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## Raniero (Feb 6, 2016)

Oda. It's not even a comparison  



Platypus said:


> Yes, the movie contradicted previously established stuff but wasn't retconned itself ("Using a *retconned* filler *movie* doesn't count." → Hence the confusion).  Fair enough, that shit was pretty terrible writing indeed. Doesn't make it better when it was iirc Kishimoto who insisted on including those scenes with Sakura.


It's funny, because neither of those were retcons. Just read the manga.


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## Platypus (Feb 6, 2016)

Sure, guess Naruto already knew about Kage Bunshin in his early Academy days.


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## Raniero (Feb 6, 2016)

Platypus said:


> Sure, guess Naruto already knew about Kage Bunshin in his early Academy days.


I mean, I never mentioned anything about the Kage Bunshin, but okay, I'll just conclude you can't read


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## Platypus (Feb 6, 2016)

Raniero said:


> I mean, I never mentioned anything about the Kage Bunshin, but okay, I'll just conclude you can't read



Nah, you're referring to the NaruHina stuff, which I couldn't care less about whether it was retconned or not.

"the movie contradicted previously established stuff"
"that shit was pretty terrible writing indeed" 

The former pertained to the movie in general, while the latter was a response to Skilatry's remarks about the romance writing (which was terrible). Stop butting in whenever you think your precious ship is being smeared. It's weird.


----------



## Keishin (Feb 6, 2016)

Mikon said:


> I agree with you on some points, i'm just trying to say that HxH is really overrated, because there is nothing that special about it when you compare it to the likes of FMAB/OP. Even Magi and Nanatsu no Taizai has a fair chance against HxH. It's just that Togashi's works don't deserve the hype that they get (YYH included) to my opinion.



Nanatsu? Hell no. I kind of enjoyed the anime but it's just another FT... Magi yes but the anime version was made by A-1 (low mid-tier studio) while HxH 2011 was done by Madhouse so that's where the hype comes from.


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## Raniero (Feb 6, 2016)

Platypus said:


> The former pertained to the movie in general


So you're aware of what I was referring to? Then I didn't see the point of your response. And I couldn't care less if it's being smeared, I can point out when something isn't a retcon if I feel the need to, which was the topic of discussion.


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## Skilatry (Feb 6, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> I see we agree for the most part then.
> 
> I'm not saying Naruto never changed, I'm saying there is no transition period. We don't really  see how naruto matures he just matures. I can think of a few times where I felt like he had grown through a painful experience but then he pretty much acted no different shortly afterwards.



He grew after Jiraiya's death which climaxed in the Pain arc, he also grew in part 1 from beginning to end, compare Wave arc Naruto and VOTE Naruto and you will see a stark difference.



Platypus said:


> Yes, the movie contradicted previously established stuff but wasn't retconned itself ("Using a *retconned* filler *movie* doesn't count." → Hence the confusion).  Fair enough, that shit was pretty terrible writing indeed. Doesn't make it better when it was iirc Kishimoto who insisted on including those scenes with Sakura.
> 
> He redpenciled the movie script and said that the movie depicts what happens between the last two chapters. Which is why I consider it canon, despite the _fillerish_ vibes I got from it. A story is either canon or not (filler) regardless of its quality.



I got the feeling Kishi stopped caring the moment he had Sai one-shot Sasori and Deidara.


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## Platypus (Feb 6, 2016)

Raniero said:


> So you're aware of what I was referring to? Then I didn't see the point of your response.



The point was that Skilatry said that the movie was retconned and is filler, so I in turn pointed out that the movie wasn't retconned, did the retconning instead and is canon. See?


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## Zensuki (Feb 6, 2016)

Kishi initially because his story captured my (and millions of others') imagination and curiosity unlike Oda. After that, it was the combination of Kishi's characterisation, interesting lore foundation and concurrent themes tied with an admirable story that maintained  such interest. Frankly, I'm not surprised the Naruto franchise has become such a phenomenon and continues to be 15 years later.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Frankly, I'm not surprised the Naruto franchise has become such a phenomenon and continues to be 15 years later.



cos kishi keeps milking the cashcow rather than letting it die and be forgotten in the next two years


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## Tapion (Feb 6, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> Did kishi not plan the ending?  it was one of worse fictional endings I've ever seen...
> 
> Besides he did take breaks to think shit out and it only got worse.  I would say the more time he has the worse off he is.



He said he had to make shit up sometimes and bend over for the editors. Its clear as day he had no idea what he wanted to do. 

Whatever brake he took is nowhere near Togashi. 

Lets not act like this guy only plays Dragon Quest and at no time in his 1000 Year brake, didn't polish his concepts and story.


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## balthosai (Feb 6, 2016)

everyone was captivated by the story initially, part 1 had a great editor from what i understand 

part 2 even started out very promising, then it became a drawn out turd-fest


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## Zensuki (Feb 6, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> cos kishi keeps milking the cashcow rather than letting it die and be forgotten in the next two years



Don't be wilfully ignorant. There are millions of fans that desire more from this fiction and its evidently apparent. Naruto still fills a gap that a no other anime has effectively replaced, so it won't be forgotten anytime soon and it will never be forgotten by the enormous fan base that was active during its 15 years of running. With Naruto Gaiden outselling several volumes before 72, Boruto breaking records not only in Japan but globally and no doubt UNS4 will become the best selling Naruto game, its clear what the message from fans is.


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## Tapion (Feb 6, 2016)

Company made to produce manga is milking an author's manga. 

Go figure.


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## Skilatry (Feb 6, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Company made to produce manga is milking an author's manga.
> 
> Go figure.



A business wanting to make money, who'da thought! :amazed


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Company made to produce manga is milking an author's manga.
> 
> Go figure.



tbh, i would probably do the same thing shonen jump and shueisha are doing, regardless of how shitty the series is. the incoming spin-offs are written by kishis assistants, i think he’s sick of nurutu. but if other people do the work for him, and he gets royalty payment, why the fuck not?


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## Milliardo (Feb 6, 2016)

Skilatry said:


> He grew after Jiraiya's death which climaxed in the Pain arc, he also grew in part 1 from beginning to end, compare Wave arc Naruto and VOTE Naruto and you will see a stark difference.


I'll give you after Jiraiya's death that's what i was originally thinking of.

In part one I think he peaked after the wave arc.



Tapion said:


> He said he had to make shit up sometimes and bend over for the editors. Its clear as day he had no idea what he wanted to do.
> 
> Whatever brake he took is nowhere near Togashi.
> 
> Lets not act like this guy only plays Dragon Quest and at no time in his 1000 Year brake, didn't polish his concepts and story.



I thought I read he had the ending planned for years. Correct me if I'm mistaken.


My point being is even when Kishi took an extended break his work wasn't improved.

We can speculate all you want but it will come down to my opinion vs yours. Nobody wins unfortunately.  It just isn't fun that way.


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## CrimsonRex (Feb 6, 2016)

Oda, by a mile.


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## Language of Life (Feb 6, 2016)

Marik Swift said:


> Have you even been following this conversation?
> 
> Moving on.
> 
> ...



What matters is ones opinion, and that's why i asked yours. 
Looking back on it; you two were conversing on viewpoints; how you can look at or approach the question and then answer it. I was just interested in your answer to OP since you had not given it yet.


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## Marik Swift (Feb 6, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> Oh gosh I'm so embarrassed..
> 
> Bro, your not fooling anyone .


I had myself fooled. Doesn't that count. 



> Yeah, man I'm going into your profile I'm so obsessed, I must know more.


Confession is good for the soul. 



> Fuck the point of the thread, at least we are having fun right?


I don't know, mate. My jimmies are pretty rustled right now. ​


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## Raniero (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Kishi initially because his story captured my (and millions of others') imagination and curiosity unlike Oda. After that, it was the combination of Kishi's characterisation, interesting lore foundation and concurrent themes tied with an admirable story that maintained  such interest. Frankly, I'm not surprised the Naruto franchise has become such a phenomenon and continues to be 15 years later.


One Piece is far more popular where it actually matters: Japan. If anything is the successor of Dragon Ball, it's One Piece. The only reason One Piece has failed to reach the same popularity in the Western World is because of the catastrophe that was the 4Kids dub and it's failed to get proper exposure since. And partly because Oda doesn't appeal to the SJW/shipping fanbase and his art to a lesser degree.


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## Black Mirror (Feb 7, 2016)

Before Dressrosa, I would instantly choose Oda but after Dressrosa, Oda might fuck up even worse than Kishi. It will all depend on the end in 10-20 years from now 

We can compare Kubo and Kishi soon though since Bleach is almost done. Kubo might win as well


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## Zensuki (Feb 7, 2016)

Raniero said:


> One Piece is far more popular where it actually matters: Japan. If anything is the successor of Dragon Ball, it's One Piece. The only reason One Piece has failed to reach the same popularity in the Western World is because of the catastrophe that was the 4Kids dub and it's failed to get proper exposure since. And partly because Oda doesn't appeal to the SJW/shipping fanbase and his art to a lesser degree.



Oh yeah, I'm sure a dub is why people did not get into One Piece 
Thats such a weak excuse. 

DBZ is a phenomenon due to its WW success. It brought shounen anime to the spotlight to the rest of the world. The only franchise that has been also been able to do that is Naruto. Such global success is far more noteworthy than such domestic success.


----------



## Raniero (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Oh yeah, I'm sure a dub is why people did not get into One Piece
> Thats such a weak excuse.


It really is not. The 4Kids dub was the first attempt to expose One Piece to America and it fell flat on it's ass.

The reason why Naruto is so popular today in the Western World? Because of the anime premiering on Toonami and having a successful run. Same can be said for Dragon Ball, whereas it failed to get popular in America after a few dubs (Ocean dub, for example) _until _it's Funimation dub. Though from my understanding, OP is popular in other countries outside of America. 



> DBZ is a phenomenon due to its WW success. It brought shounen anime to the spotlight to the rest of the world.


Never said otherwise. But Dragon Ball is as popular worldwide as it is due it's a successful anime. Most people haven't even touched the Dragon Ball manga. 



> The only franchise that has been also been able to do that is Naruto.


No, it isn't...

What is Sailor Moon? What is Pokemon? What is Digimon? What is Gundam? Saint Seiya? Yu Yu Hakusho? All these came _before _Naruto. You can make an argument that some of those are probably less popular or well known than Naruto, but they're international successes too. I mean, how can one call themselves a fan of anime and yet sleep on iconic anime like those mentioned above? 



> Such global success is far more noteworthy than such domestic success.


Of course. But One Piece's failure to be as popular worldwide is due to a terrible dub that censored most of the series, which turned off it's viewers. All the series I named above, including Naruto, are as popular as they are due to successful anime dubs.

PS: Kishimoto's weak ass still hasn't been able to touch Oda in sales, international market or no


----------



## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 7, 2016)

Doesn't matter, he's still right. Everyone outside of Japan are irrelevant. The Naruto series is licensed in other countries but the original target audience is Japan's. If Japan doesn't like it and the Japanese manga and BDs don't sell, they won't make more of it regardless how well it sells in other countries. Sales in America only matter if you want more anime to be licensed and translated. If many people buy Viz digital subscriptions for example, they will see there's a market in digital manga licensing and might do more like it.

And no, Dragon Ball is not only a phenomenon due to its worldwide success. What made Dragon Ball a phenomenon, in Japan particularly, is Toriyama's art. That's what made Toriyama's manga revolutionary. He was the first mangaka who used to be a graphic artist, and his art style was overwhelmingly stylish at the time that it stranded out from other classical shonen styled artists. Osamu Akimoto, the author of Kochikame, said that over half of the works that amateurs sent to the editorial department of Shonen Jump had a very Toriyama-esque art to them. Incidentally, even so called "SD" is one of his inventions. He put Masked Rider and Gundam in SD style in Dr. Slump and it strongly inspired other artists, then the SD Gundam series was officially born.

What also makes Dragon Ball a phenomenon is that it is one of the founding shonen manga series that set the ground rules for modern shonen followed by it along with Fist of the North Star, JoJo and Saint Seiya. Although, I'd say Fist of the North Star was pretty much the big one that kicked off the Shonen Jump style and tropes that almost every subsequent shonen series afterwards has used to some extent.


----------



## Zensuki (Feb 7, 2016)

Raniero said:


> It really is not. The 4Kids dub was the first attempt to expose One Piece to America and it fell flat on it's ass.
> 
> The reason why Naruto is so popular today in the Western World? Because of the anime premiering on Toonami and having a successful run. Same can be said for Dragon Ball, whereas it failed to get popular in America after a few dubs (Ocean dub, for example) _until _it's Funimation dub. Though from my understanding, OP is popular in other countries outside of America.
> 
> ...



Once again weak excuse. A voiceover is not the be all end all for an anime series, especially one that gets televised. One Piece simply failed to attract viewers at the time and could never make up for it.

Naruto managed to do it and like I said in my previous post I believe its due to a mixture on interesting characters, admirable story and unique lore. If it needs reminding I'm talking shounen. Furthermore, series like YYH have a fraction of the success Naruto has had, useless point as I'm specifically talking about large scale global success. 

PS: Doesn't matter, Naruto as a franchise has long eclipsed One Piece.



HoroHoro said:


> Doesn't matter, he's still right. *Everyone outside of Japan are irrelevant*. The Naruto series is licensed in other countries but the original target audience is Japan's. If Japan doesn't like it and the Japanese manga and BDs don't sell, they won't make more of it regardless how well it sells in other countries. Sales in America only matter if you want more anime to be licensed and translated. If many people buy Viz digital subscriptions for example, they will see there's a market in digital manga licensing and might do more like it.
> 
> And no, Dragon Ball is not only a phenomenon due to its worldwide success. What made Dragon Ball a phenomenon, in Japan particularly, is Toriyama's art. That's what made Toriyama's manga revolutionary. He was the first mangaka who used to be a graphic artist, and his art style was overwhelmingly stylish at the time that it stranded out from other classical shonen styled artists. Osamu Akimoto, the author of Kochikame, said that over half of the works that amateurs sent to the editorial department of Shonen Jump had a very Toriyama-esque art to them. Incidentally, even so called "SD" is one of his inventions. He put Masked Rider and Gundam in SD style in Dr. Slump and it strongly inspired other artists, then the SD Gundam series was officially born.
> 
> What also makes Dragon Ball a phenomenon is that it is one of the founding shonen manga series that set the ground rules for modern shonen followed by it along with Fist of the North Star, JoJo and Saint Seiya. Although, I'd say Fist of the North Star was pretty much the big one that kicked off the Shonen Jump style and tropes that almost every subsequent shonen series afterwards has used to some extent.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Once again weak excuse. A voiceover is not the be all end all for an anime series, especially one that gets televised. One Piece simply failed to attract viewers at the time and could never make up for it.
> 
> PS: Doesn't matter, Naruto as a franchise has long eclipsed One Piece.



One Piece would be a hell of alot more popular in the US if it was first exposed through the Funnimation Dub rather than 4kids.

But anyway One Piece's success in Japan >>>>>>Naruto's international success

You know by now that a huge majority of Westerners are freeloaders when it comes to anime/manga goods.....so sales in the west is always gonna be a miniscule fraction of how much goods sells in Japan.

You were hyping up how Naruto's Banana Kid's movie broke records when it still only made one third of the Total grossing One Piece:Film z did (just in Japan as well).

One Piece is currently the only known Shonen to have its own mini Theme park (located in Tokyo tower).

One Piece is the most sponsored anime franchise for various events, food, fashion (hell even Cars).....that trend is slowly seemingly occurring in France.

Also, No other Shonens have their own unique Stores. (One Piece has about 3-4 unique stores based on the series in popular shopping districs of Japan).

The Merchandise One Piece has in Japan is overwhelmingly Massive compared to what Naruto has worldwide.

Speaking of France (the 2nd biggest anime/manga market after Japan)....Naruto was the best selling manga for a very long time.....however sales had started dipping around 2010/2011. One Piece (however) has been growing and continues to grow. One Piece has been selling best manga in France for the past 3 years now.




The only, only thing Naruto does better at than One Piece is Video Game sales. One Piece dominates in practically everything else


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## Lucaniel (Feb 7, 2016)

> Naruto as a franchise has long eclipsed One Piece.


rofl these pathetic delusions


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## Mikon (Feb 7, 2016)

EDIT:
my bad 
I hope no one saw my shameful comment, lmao


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


>



Did you even read the rest of my post? Or just the sentence that you highlighted?


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## Gino (Feb 7, 2016)

Naruto Part 1 was fucking awesome while part 2 is.........something else.


One piece has been consistently awesome even after the time skip.


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## Zensuki (Feb 7, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Did you even read the rest of my post? Or just the sentence that you highlighted?



I did, but I'm going to wait and watch you try justify that statement.



KingForever7 said:


> One Piece would be a hell of alot more popular in the US if it was first exposed through the Funnimation Dub rather than 4kids.



Damn, is this what OP fans keep telling themselves 
Anyway, I understand the merchandise success OP has had in Japan but I (and so do you) understand how even if the West is keen on an anime/manga, sales will be disproportionally small compared to domestic sales, perhaps due to certain mediums not being as widely adopted as they are in Japan or easier ways of access such as the web.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> I did, but I'm going to wait and watch you try justify that statement.



I already did, or do I need to rephrase myself in case you got selective reading?



HoroHoro said:


> Doesn't matter, he's still right. Everyone outside of Japan are irrelevant. The Naruto series is licensed in other countries but the original target audience is Japan's. If Japan doesn't like it and the Japanese manga and BDs don't sell, they won't make more of it regardless how well it sells in other countries. Sales in America only matter if you want more anime to be licensed and translated. If many people buy Viz digital subscriptions for example, they will see there's a market in digital manga licensing and might do more like it.



The fact remains as it stands, every country whose name is not Japan are irrelevant. We are not the target audience for one. The target audience has always been the children and adolescents of Japan, a niche of people that spend $100 worth Blu-Ray discs, manga volumes worth $35 and merchandise every month. Have you ever spend your money on a Blu-Ray disc that contained four episodes which costed $100? If not, then Japan could care less in what you, some random freeloader who reads and watches their Japanese comic books and cartoons illegally, have a say. At all.


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## Aduro (Feb 7, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> One Piece would be a hell of alot more popular in the US if it was first exposed through the Funnimation Dub rather than 4kids.
> 
> But anyway One Piece's success in Japan >>>>>>Naruto's international success
> 
> ...



That's a terrible argument, success=/= quality, Transformers movies are some of the most popular ever made, with Dark of the Moon making over a billion dollars. as did The Phatntom Menace. People en masse can be complete idiots. There are thousands of people who claim Pearl Harbour is  a wonderful movie because it was made to exploit sentimental people who refuse to think about the glaring faults in the media they consume. Majority rule won't make me accept mistakes as true.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 7, 2016)

Aduro said:


> That's a terrible argument, success=/= quality, Transformers movies are some of the most popular ever made, with Dark of the Moon making over a billion dollars. as did The Phatntom Menace. People en masse can be complete idiots. There are thousands of people who claim Pearl Harbour is  a wonderful movie because it was made to exploit sentimental people who refuse to think about the glaring faults in the media they consume. Majority rule won't make me accept mistakes as true.



That argument wasn't about quality....it was about overall success.

My Argument against Zensuki was about this quote, " _Doesn't matter, Naruto as a franchise has long eclipsed One Piece._". 
When you take into account Overall global success (which includes Japan, France, US and everywhere else)..Then, One Piece dominates Naruto.

We've discussed pages ago on how Oda is a better quality writer than Kishi already.


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## fyhb (Feb 7, 2016)

Oda's got his share of problems at times, in particular in-arc pacing, cheap hype, unsatisfactory fights and a recent worrying trend of over complicating arcs through burdening them with too many characters and plot threads, however compared to Kishimoto he's William fucking Shakespeare. 

Naruto Part two was frankly an abomination. Asspulls left, right and centre ..... the story being made up on the fly........... the other rookies being ignored whilst the main trio turned into insufferable wretches ........ Deus Ex Machina. Just horrible.

Oda's world building is still phenomenal as is his overall grand story. It's still an enjoyable read and something I look forward to. 

However if we were just comparing part one Naruto then things would be closer (I'd still give it to Oda though).


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## Raniero (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Once again weak excuse. A voiceover is not the be all end all for an anime series, especially one that gets televised. One Piece simply failed to attract viewers at the time and could never make up for it.


"Voiceovers" wasn't the only issue with the 4Kids dub. There were also censors with the story and any mature themes were basically nonexistent. Plus, it's airing time was total shit. Saturday morning on Kids WB or whatever it was? Meanwhile, Naruto was on Toonami during the evenings. Not even a comparison. 

And I'm sorry, but  continuously calling it a "weak excuse" isn't an argument, especially since it's a well known consequence. 



> If it needs reminding I'm talking shounen


All the series I mentioned except Sailor Moon are shonen, genius. They're all aimed at young boys. 

And Naruto didn't bring Shonen into the western spotlight and it isn't the only other series to share that position with Dragon Ball Z either. If anything, the series that share that with DBZ are Gundam, Saint Seiya, Pokemon, Digimon, YGO, and YHH. You're giving Naruto the credit it really doesn't deserve, because most people would have already seen or heard of most of those before Naruto. 



> Furthermore, series like YYH have a fraction of the success Naruto has had, useless point as I'm specifically talking about large scale global success.


And all the other series I mentioned have large scale global success. In fact, Pokemon, Sailor Moon, and Gundam most definitely eclipse Naruto in global success. 

–snip–



> PS: Doesn't matter, Naruto as a franchise has long eclipsed One Piece.


One Piece as a franchise still makes more money than Naruto, including the movies, worldwide so... 

While Naruto may be more popular in America, globally, the numbers speak for themselves.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 7, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> I did, but I'm going to wait and watch you try justify that statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's not wrong. In contrast to Naruto, One Piece wasn't allowed to keep its general integrity when it first came to the states. It like Naruto was an adventure/battle shonen. 4Kids did not like to show violence on its properties. Not even taking into account the demands that came with airing a show on Saturday mornings on a brodcast program. One Piece in contrast to Naruto was not able to explore its darker themes, or even mildly controversial ones, and was most notably limited in the violence that was permissible. Essentially cutting it off at its legs. 

Additionally, Naruto received greater exposure being on Cartoon Network, and aired later in the day, including weekly airings. On top of all that, in nations where One Piece did air generally unedited it is more popular. If it wasn't Yugioh or Pokemon, 4Kids did a lot of damage to the properties entrusted to them and even those two weren't immune to it. It got even to a point that after a while the licensing rights were taken away from them for both of those series as well. It's simply being ignorant to the nuances of marketing to think it was the quality that is responsible for Naruto's relative popularity in the states.


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## Jon Moxley (Feb 7, 2016)

Oda for sure.


The main reason for me? Consistency .


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 8, 2016)

Dean Ambrose said:


> Oda for sure.
> 
> 
> The main reason for me? Consistency .



Yeah ... too much consistency. As said before, *One Piece has formulaic arcs.*
Alabasta and Skypeia are the same. Luffy goes, explores, meets a girl, she cries, theres some Logia villain who gets hyped, Luffy easily figures out/exploits their weakness and beats them. Dressrosa is exactly the same as Alabasta for .

You may say "but that was just 3 arcs" but those three arcs account for 25% of the manga up to date (200+ chapters in total out of 815 chapters).

Naruto doesn't have formulaic arcs

*First arc:* Naruto and co go on their first big mission to save a town thats been f*cked over by black market traders and mercenaries (a concept Oda is using in his manga nowadays)
*Second arc:* A big competition with tournaments, written exams and survival exercises for Naruto and co to be promoted to Chunin, in which they fight a powerful "Sannin"
*Third arc:* That Sannin is the Hokage's student and Naruto's master's former team mate who is secrelty spying through Naruto's "friend" Kabuto - then they attack the village and revive the former Hokages to fight while Naruto fights another Jinchuriki
*Fourth arc:* Hokage is dead so Naruto goes on a training journey into the country (where we see world building and character development and support cast interactions) to find the third Sannin to be the Hokage - an arc ended with a bang when all Sannin face off. We also meet Sasuke's brother during this arc and get the backstory (look how long weve had to wait for Sanji backstory - we dont even know when Zoro's arc is coming - but its probably Wano Kuni so anyway)
*Fifth arc:* That evil Sannin's henchmen come to get Sasuke and the young ninja get a development arc as hey go on a big mission to retrieve Sasuke0

*First arc*: After the timeskip we see more members of the organisation Sasuke's brother came from
*Second arc*: That evil Sannin returns when there is a reconnaisance mission to locate his hiding place - Naruto's true Kyuubi power surfaces
*Third arc*: Naruto is sidelined (this is a good thing)s so support cast can get in some action
*Fourth arc*: Sasuke's long awaited fight with Itachi happens, as well as another of the manga's best fights (Jiraiya X Pein) as we see more support cast (Team Hebi), and a cornerstone is turned as that evil Sannin is temporarily killed and put to the sideline
*Fifth arc*: We see another Jinchuriki and see what a "Perfect Jinchuriki" is like when Sasuke fights, him and the Akatsuki leader nukes Naruto's home town anf they have a big fight

and so on

IMO Part 1 Naruto > One Piece (though i know stubborn one piece fans  will disagree)
Its only arcs like Marineford (barely), Impel down (barely) and current Zou (ill let this one off) arc that keep me interested in One piece since the arcs are too formulaic. 

Thats why Naruto is my fav manga and stands out - its so unique and interesting. 
Oda's arcs are too formulaic. Alabasta = Dressrosa = Skypeia and FI is very similar. Luffy meets a cute bitch that Sanji wanks to, and when she starts crying, Luffy explores the island then negs the villain. giving Law's win over Doffy to Luffy instead was the thing that brought me very close to dropping One Piece. IMO the Naruto world, history etc is more intriguing than the OP world. OP is quite simple really. Theres 4 seas and the grand line. In the 2nd half of GL are 4 god level pirates. Theres Marines and Shichibukai. Then there is also a black market and poneglyphs.

Theres so much to the naruto world that we saw, and even more we dont know (just check the Konoha Library to see the debates going on). Kishi didnt plan his manga well cos theres so much content. Oda is praised for his good planning but its pretty simple to plan. Most people have predicted how One Piece will end. How many people saw Kaguya crawling out of Madara's mouth, asspull or no asspull, how many people predicted that.Even DBZ had 3 consecutive formulaic sagas - Frieza Cell Buu, though Frieza saga wasnt as identical as Buu and Cell were pretty much symmetrical.

Part 1 Naruto > One Piece >/= (= imo) Part 2 Naruto.
Nuff said.

I love One Piece don't get me wrong but it's pretty boring in comparison to Naruto even if the quality is better because its easier to make a good quality cupcake than it is to make a bad quality birthday cake if you know what i mean. No shade. All tea.
[sp][/sp]

Ive come close to dropping One Piece so many times. I didnt even watch Enies lobby cos it was so dragged out. I never thought of dropping Naruto till the start/middle of the war arc. Even though the end was asspull after asspull it was still entertaining.

And even though this is just a matter of personal preference, a lot of One Piece characters annoy me.

ONES THAT ANNOY ME JUST BECAUSE
Shirahoshi, Rebecca, Vivi, Violet, Usopp, Chopper, Franky Brook, Kinemon, Momosuke or whatever hes called, Kanjuro, Luffy a little bit, Zoro, Jinbe, Hody, Arlong, Sanji (he used to annoy me but not anymore, i started liking him after the timeskip)
Funnily enough i actually like Nami
ONES THAT ARE WEIRDLY ANNOYING JUST BECAUSE OF THE FANBASE
Dragon, Mihawk, Shanks, Garp, Zoro, Akainu

The only Naruto character that gets on my nerves is Sakura (and sometimes Hinata, but to a much lesser extent albeit than Sakura)


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 8, 2016)

I loathe that dishonest tactic. You deliberately omit details of what you disfavor and go into great detail of what you favor.

Naruto arcs are formulaic, namely in that the bad guy of that particular arc is always converted to the good side, and either becomes an ally or does some final act of redemption in the case of Pain and Obito. Then when you get into Part II, and the repitition of chasing down Sasuke.



> s pretty simple to plan. Most people have predicted how One Piece will end. How many people saw Kaguya crawling out of Madara's mouth, asspull or no asspull, how many people predicted that.



Like this is the most ridiculous argument of it all. For one, One Piece hasn't ended yet! 

Second, people MOCKED the already repetitive "man behind the man" that Kaguya was apart of, and why are you celebrating a lack of predictability when the consequence was a story that went to utter shit?


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## sasykei (Feb 8, 2016)

Naruto arcs are not formulaic. Kishimoto just knows how to write a straightforward narrative that doesn't jumble around and keep the themes of the story consistent. Forgiveness and understanding is always bashed as "TnJ."


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 8, 2016)

Naruto's not formulaic, he just knows how to write a formulaic narrative!

Also, Kishimoto is notorious for failing to retain consistency in his themes. Just as well, while people are well aware of his intended themes, their success in execution is another matter entirely. The "TNJ" criticism comes specifically from that.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 8, 2016)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I loathe that dishonest tactic. You deliberately omit details of what you disfavor and go into great detail of what you favor.


It's on. Lets go.


> Naruto arcs are formulaic, namely in that the bad guy of that particular arc is always converted to the good side, and either becomes an ally or does some final act of redemption in the case of Pain and Obito. Then when you get into Part II, and the repitition of chasing down Sasuke.


No they are not. Only twice was the bad guy converted to the good side - Nagato/Obito. Sasuke doesn't really count as his character was inconsistent anyways. There was no repetition of chasing Sasuke. They once tried to stop him from leaving. The other times, Naruto just tried to hit two birds with one stone when they were sent on recon missions to track down bigger Konoha criminals, namely Orochimaru and Itachi. Thats like criticizing Luffy for wanting to become the Pirate King or wanting to save evry island he sees.



> Like this is the most ridiculous argument of it all. For one, One Piece hasn't ended yet!


So?



> Second, people MOCKED the already repetitive "man behind the man" that Kaguya was apart of, and why are you celebrating a lack of predictability when the consequence was a story that went to utter shit?


Okay. Pain < Obito < Madara < Kaguya. Fair enough. But they all had their invididual goals and were just being used by one another. That being said, Orochimaru, Kakuzu, Hidan, Deidara, Sasori, Kisame, Itachi, Zabuza, Danzo, Toneri, Momoshiki and Kinshiki were completely different so whats your point.
However. Albasta = Dressrosa = Skypeia =/= Fishman Island =/= Arlong Park.
Conspiracy theories and an annoying girl (Vivi/Rebecca/Conis/Shirahosi/Nami) and a corrupt world gov (Shichibukai/CP0 and the newspaper thing/Fishman slavery etc). Ive heard it all before.



sasykei said:


> Naruto arcs are not formulaic. Kishimoto just knows how to write a straightforward narrative that doesn't jumble around and keep the themes of the story consistent. Forgiveness and understanding is always bashed as "TnJ."



And isn't that a good thing?


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 8, 2016)

sasykei said:


> Naruto arcs are not formulaic. Kishimoto just knows how to write a straightforward narrative that doesn't jumble around and keep the themes of the story consistent. Forgiveness and understanding is always bashed as "TnJ."



No, Kishimoto's messages and themes are simply wrong, disgusting and inconsistent right off the bat. Also, people have a lot of reasons to make a mockery out of the Talk no Jutsu sessions, because Kishimoto confused forgiveness with justice. Forgiveness doesn't resolve all disputes, conflicts or grievances, forgiveness doesn't replace the need for justice. A murderer or rapist should be brought to justice regardless of whether the plaintiff or victims are willing to forgive the perpetrator.  We have a justice system not only because people want retribution and punishment when they're wronged, but it's also because we need to set rules to deter crimes and uphold values we consider righteous as a society so that we can get along as a community and feel safe and respected as a member of society. Justice is essential, forgiveness is optional.

Kishimoto refused to give victims of the shinobi system justice and justified the top officials who abused their powers by portraying them as patriotic. Not only that, if the victims rebelled, he'd blame them for failing to conquer their hatred and find forgiveness. He tried to make it look like there's nothing wrong with slavery, ethnic cleansing or imprisoning of the Tailed Beasts and producing mass weapons at the expense of children's humanity, he wrote like the problem is the slaves didn't love their master, Sasuke didn't love the village that discriminated his clan and ordered an ethnic cleansing, the Tailed Beasts didn't befriend their hosts, the Jinchuriki didn't fill themselves with love, Pain is fueled by hatred and loneliness, etc.

Forgiveness is fucking overrated. People often believe if you fail to forgive, the negativity would put strain on your mental health. It's not necessarily true, you can choose not to forgive a person and continue to think they're irredeemable, but consider them insignificant in your life, thus, not affected by them or their actions emotionally. Whether an action or a person is forgivable is a moral judgement, it's not necessarily tied to strong negative emotional attachment. 

Also, One Piece is the manga between the two that has a linear plot, Naruto just pretends to have a linear plot.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## -Ziltoid- (Feb 8, 2016)

Naruto was formulaic to the point that Kishimoto kept depicting Naruto as the underdog even when that stopped making sense 200 chapters before 

But it is true that Naruto as a story had more variation, at least prior to the war. During the war there was just a boring repetition of steps. The complexity Kishimoto could've given his world also is much better than what One Piece does imho. Oda just throws in some characters, develops them for one arc, and after that the character just remain stale and unchangeable. As flawed as Kishi's work is, I'm inclined to say he's better than Oda. Especially with the post-timeskip arcs, Oda is showing that he isn't as great as many people seem to think he is. Fishman island was mediocre, the clown-chaos was meh, and Dressrosa was just plain horrible


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## Bruce Wayne (Feb 8, 2016)

I dont know. Even though Naruto became shit i continued to read it, but once One Piece had its shitty timeskip, I stopped reading it.


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## shade0180 (Feb 8, 2016)

> Sasuke didn't love the vi*llage that discriminated his clan *and ordered an ethnic cleansing,



Stop this bullshit. seriously the only discrimation is the Uchiha thinking they are on a pedestal, and we practically see that every time..

Like that time when: 
Konoha Shinobi praising both Itachi and Sauce on panel while both are known criminal
K11 not accepting Sauce near instantly as if he didn't betray them and put them in a near death situation
There's more.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 8, 2016)

-Ziltoid- said:


> But it is true that Naruto as a story had more variation, at least prior to the war



Lol, More variation in what way. Most of the Naruto Arcs are Rescue/Pursuit Missions...where at the end we see a crying over-emotional Naruto.



-Ziltoid- said:


> The complexity Kishimoto *could've* given his world also is much better than what One Piece does imho.


@bold...Lol, "could've" ......it simply never happened.
That's impossible when you see how limited the world-building of Naruto is compared to One Piece. 


-Ziltoid- said:


> Oda just throws in some characters, develops them for one arc, and after that the character just remain stale and unchangeable.



*cough* K11 *cough* Taka *cough* Sand Siblings bar Gaara *cough* etc etc.

It's quite sad that single-arc minor characters (such as Bellamy, Rebecca etc) have more development than most of the recurring characters in Naruto e.g. K11, some of the Akatsuki, many other minor characters.



-Ziltoid- said:


> As flawed as Kishi's work is, I'm inclined to say he's better than Oda.



Ok, this is where I stop


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## Indra (Feb 8, 2016)

I honestly can't get myself to read OP, but I might considering how popular it is.

I just don't find it appealing for some reason


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## Mizura (Feb 8, 2016)

lol, I don't think Either Naruto or Oda are that great as writers, because both of them are formulaic writers, but to say that Naruto isn't?

Naruto's arcs are Very formulaic. They all follow the same pattern:

First 3 chapters: the main protagonists and antagonists of the end of the arc are introduced. There are also a few short confrontations near the start of the arc.
Mid-arc: one or several phases of intermediary confrontations, with very little influence on the overall plot.
Final part of the arc: The main battle of the arc, which usually ends in either:
The conversion of the villain: Zabuza, Gaara, Pain and finally, Sasuke.
The conversion of whoever else needs converting: Tsunade, Chiyo, Sai.
The defeat of whoever needs defeating, or the saving of whoever needs saving.


I think the only arcs ending in 'defeat' (for the protagonist) are those concerning Sasuke (last arc of Season 1, second arc of Season 2).

In the meantime, nearly every confrontation happens in either a cave, a forest or some desert.

What's more, once the non-main character is 'done', he has very little influence on the rest of the plot.

Oda has repetitive structure within many arcs, but he does a much better job of Connecting the arcs: characters reappear with different roles (and not just generic ones like confronting unimportant villains), there's political and whatnot stuff happening in the background, there's more connection in the history shown. Now, you could argue that there was a political consequence in Naruto too, but that was pretty much just at the end of the series. There is pretty much also just one or two 'binding' historical elements, namely the whole Uchiha thing.

One Piece isn't mid-way yet, but there's a Lot of changes going on in the different factions, the history is more complex, and you can bet that a lot more things will converge at the end of the series.

All that said, I don't find Oda's world or writing very interesting, but to say that Naruto is less formulaic than One Piece is lol.


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## Tapion (Feb 8, 2016)

Actually, Oda says OP is 70% complete.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 8, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Actually, Oda says OP is 70% complete.



Where did he ever say that?


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## Lucaniel (Feb 8, 2016)

> One Piece isn't mid-way yet


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 8, 2016)

Not sure what % of Story is left with OP...but it's definitely more than half-way finished


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 8, 2016)

Didn't Oda say once that he'll be continuing One Piece for another decade or shit? If that's true, then the series is hardly mid-way yet. It's like Berserk at this state.


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## Mikon (Feb 8, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Actually, Oda says OP is 70% complete.



It was his editor's guess or something like that, correct me if i'm wrong.
Also, Berserk is never gonna end this way, like HXH


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 8, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Also, Berserk is never gonna end this way, like HXH



>tfw my greatest fear is I'll die before finishing HxH and Berserk
>tfw it's coming closer every single day


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## Mikon (Feb 8, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> >tfw my greatest fear is I'll die before finishing HxH and Berserk
> >tfw it's coming closer every single day



Meh...i hate authors that don't give a darn about their audience.
The Golden Age arc in Berserk is one of my favorite arcs and story in general, but the manga has lost it's touch soon afterwards. 
And i don't even want to bring up HXH, people will think that i'm hating on the series 

>tfw you realize that even One Piece (extra mega ultra endless shounen) might end before them 
Oda>Togashi/Miura confirmed


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## Alita (Feb 8, 2016)

Kishi is the much better writer overall compared to Oda imo. 

Though it's hard to judge these two seeing how OP still hasn't ended and there is plenty of room for it to get either worse or better(It's current path suggests it will get worse tho.).


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## Lucy75 (Feb 8, 2016)

Kishi by far. Naruto has better art, characters, world building, etc.

He's also much better than Toriyama as well.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 8, 2016)

IIRC. It was 5 years ago that Oda stated that One Piece has about a decade left. So if he was true to that word, it would have 5 years left.


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## -Ziltoid- (Feb 8, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> Lol, More variation in what way. Most of the Naruto Arcs are Rescue/Pursuit Missions...where at the end we see a crying over-emotional Naruto.
> 
> 
> @bold...Lol, "could've" ......it simply never happened.
> ...



Right... I obviously forgot about Kiba. I should redraw my remark about stale and undeveloped characters 



Mizura said:


> lol, I don't think Either Naruto or Oda are that great as writers, because both of them are formulaic writers, but to say that Naruto isn't?
> 
> Naruto's arcs are Very formulaic. They all follow the same pattern:
> 
> ...



I think one of the things that Kishi had in his advantage is that he at least created questions. For instance the Uchiha massacre (who was wrong/right?) the minor nations (a theme dropped after Nagato died..). The political consequences, so to speak. But the big flaw in Kishi is that he fails in the connection of it, the consistency. He raises questions, yet doesn't answer them. Or very halfassed. That was why the conclusion of the manga sucked so badly. So many stupid things happened... but One Piece, on the other hand, never pretended to raise such questions. It's much more childish. 

Which is why I say the complexity which Kishi *could* have given his world is better. He raised the questions, created the settings, but failed to deliver or just forgot them. But I suppose the word 'could' should still be explained to some 

But I'd rather take the Kubera world as an example of proper world building that One Piece. I mean, OP and Naruto might easily be better than semi-garbage like Bleach and Fairy Tail, but it is still rather mediocre in the end. But when comparing Kishi to Oda, I'd prefer Kishi, who at least showed us a world that could have been better if he hadn't screwed up the second half of the post timeskip part so badly.



Seto Kaiba said:


> IIRC. It was 5 years ago that Oda stated that One Piece has about a decade left. So if he was true to that word, it would have 5 years left.



That is one more Dressrosa-like arc and then he's done? Seems like Kishi will get a contender for most rushed conclusions of the story


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 8, 2016)

–snip–



-Ziltoid- said:


> Right... I obviously forgot about Kiba. I should redraw my remark about stale and undeveloped characters



Insulting Kiba's underdevelopment = Insulting Kishi's Characterisation

So Good


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## Aduro (Feb 8, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> IInsulting Kiba's underdevelopment = Insulting Kishi's Characterisation
> 
> So Good



Kishi didn't find room to develop a minor character like Kiba. That's nowhere near comparable to Oda failing to develop Luffy or Zoro's personalities outside of their origin stories.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 8, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Kishi didn't find room to develop a minor character like Kiba. That's nowhere near comparable to Oda failing to develop Luffy or Zoro's personalities outside of their origin stories.



Why should Luffy and Zoro change their personalities ? 

Also, Oda can provide tons of room to develop some single-arc minor Characters....yet, Kishi couldn't do it for reccuring major side characters like the K11.
That is quite pathetic, don't you think.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 8, 2016)

Naruto fans are still on about their "character development"?



HoroHoro said:


> Character development is overrated. I keep hearing the animanga fandom like to talk about character development quite a lot, but I think most animanga series are story-driven. You can get away with some of the most one-dimensional and static characters if you can write intrigues, create tension and excitement. Take Dragon Ball or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as an example.
> 
> Another thing is, the majority of people think character development means that the characters themselves change over the course of the story. I always thought it simply meant how the writer develop their characters, like how an artist develops their work from sketches and linearts to coloring, shading, textures and layers. It's the same with writing a character, first you write about factual and basic things like appearances, backgrounds and goals, then you add personalities through actions and interpersonal relationships. Then you flesh them out a bit more with internal monologue. A change in personality or point of view is just one form of development. Some characters are already developed when they are introduced in the sense that the characters themselves don't change into a different person, it's your perception of the characters' change as the writer lets you see different sides of the following character.


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## Aduro (Feb 8, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> Why should Luffy and Zoro change their personalities ?


Developing, the main characters is essential to a story because if I can't believe anything will change characters like Luffy or Zoro  or really any of the current Strawhats from this point then I can't give a darn about anything that happens to them. Sasuke for instance was interesting as it was always questionable how far he would go for revenge and if he could ever return. Even Sakura who is criticised for being less developed than other main Naruto characters developed different feelings and acted differently for Sasuke and Naruto during the Forest of Death, Sasuke Retrieval and the Land of Iron arcs as well as in the epilogue, but Nami has treated Luffy identically since the Arlong Arc.




> Also, Oda can provide tons of room to develop some single-arc minor Characters....yet, Kishi couldn't do it for reccuring major side characters like the K11.
> That is quite pathetic, don't you think.


Most of the Konoha 11 weren't major side characters by any stretch of the imagination, besides Team 7, Shikamaru and maybe Hinata they obviously were quite distant from the plot so developing them would be wasteful. After that they didn't need any because they weren't near the real plot. Nagging at Kishi about formerly relevant characters would be like complaining that Vivi didn't get enough development after the Alabasta Arc. On the other hand if characters are in every arc then their personalities need to change steadily rather than just developing them for one arc and then giving them new powers and the same tired running jokes. But Oda clearly has no ideas what to do with half the Strawhats in the past few arcs.


> Character development is overrated. I keep hearing the animanga fandom like to talk about character development quite a lot, but I think most animanga series are story-driven. You can get away with some of the most one-dimensional and static characters if you can write intrigues, create tension and excitement. Take Dragon Ball or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure as an example.
> 
> Another thing is, the majority of people think character development means that the characters themselves change over the course of the story. I always thought it simply meant how the writer develop their characters, like how an artist develops their work from sketches and linearts to coloring, shading, textures and layers. It's the same with writing a character, first you write about factual and basic things like appearances, backgrounds and goals, then you add personalities through actions and interpersonal relationships. Then you flesh them out a bit more with internal monologue. A change in personality or point of view is just one form of development. Some characters are already developed when they are introduced in the sense that the characters themselves don't change into a different person, it's your perception of the characters' change as the writer lets you see different sides of the following character.



Even simple characters like Goku needed to develop to some extent to be a protagonist for so long, as a naive kid learning from Roshi, as a mature hero during the King Piccolo Saga, as a father, a member of the warrior Saiyan race. Luffy is stuck in the naive, selfish idiot surrounded by enablers with big dreams stage. 
Besides, One Piece is about a group of upstart characters achieving dreams that are far off, and if they haven't changed even a little in their attempt to achieve those dreams they've learned and scarified nothing so its totally hollow. There's no way Oda's subtle enough to pull of new perspectives showing new sides to his characters either. OP characters are almost all surface and predictable.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 8, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Developing, the main characters is essential to a story because if I can't believe anything will change characters like Luffy or Zoro  or really any of the current Strawhats from this point then I can't give a darn about anything that happens to them. Sasuke for instance was interesting as it was always questionable how far he would go for revenge and if he could ever return. Even Sakura who is criticised for being less developed than other main Naruto characters developed different feelings and acted differently for Sasuke and Naruto during the Forest of Death, Sasuke Retrieval and the Land of Iron arcs as well as in the epilogue, but Nami has treated Luffy identically since the Arlong Arc.



Lol, all you're doing is limiting Character Development to "Personality changes".

Lol, using Sasuke's bipolar disorder as excuse for good development...if anything that's Inconsistent development.

In One Piece, the Comedy is highly inclusive of the SH's personality (gags/quicks) which is expressive of that particular characters Humour.

Development is much broader and expansive than that,  It incorporates working towards a goal /dream which are progressed through the overall story, it incorporates new techniques/styles, it incorporates multi-character interactions, it  incorporates contribution to the progression of the story etc.

Most of the strawhats have already forgone some personality changes (which is just one part of development) such as; *Nico Robin*, *Luffy* (yes, a bit, he has, he was far more reckless pre-timeskip),* Usopp* (ongoing and is the biggest part for his characterisation in order to achieve his dream), *Chopper *(scared of Humans....since going the crew has become more open),* Nami* (Hated Pirates....learnt that morally good pirates do exist since meeting Luffy)





Aduro said:


> Most of the Konoha 11 weren't major side characters by any stretch of the imagination, besides Team 7, Shikamaru and maybe Hinata they obviously were quite distant from the plot so developing them would be wasteful. After that they didn't need any because they weren't near the real plot. Nagging at Kishi about formerly relevant characters would be like complaining that Vivi didn't get enough development after the Alabasta Arc. On the other hand if characters are in every arc then their personalities need to change steadily rather than just developing them for one arc and then giving them new powers and the same tired running jokes. But Oda clearly has no ideas what to do with half the Strawhats in the past few arcs.



Lol, Vivi has more development than all the K11 except Shikamaru (and she only appeared for a couple of arcs)
K11 are major side characters (especially in part 1) that made appearances in multiple arcs.
Whats wasteful is giving many side characters screentime just for the sake of wanking of Naruto/Sasuke...instead of giving them independent development and contribution.

Saying that Oda had no idea what to do with half of the strawhats is laughable, as every single SH has a function and role on Luffy's crew and the story (which ties with their dreams). In every arc, Oda always switches betweens Characters so we know what different characters on an Island are doing.....Kishi never did this with his cast and only focused on Naruto/Sasuke in part 2 (even neglecting Sakura who's supposed to be one of the mains too Lol)


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## Tapion (Feb 8, 2016)

Only way Oda can fuck up as bad as Kishi is if Black Beard is actually Gol D Roger's puppet, who's actually the puppet of the Herald of the Fox Goddess who has dominion over all Devil Fruit and Haki, after eating the fruit from the Haki Devil Tree.

Oh and throw in some dead characters and inhuman opponents (preferably plants) so our MCs don't dirty their hands. Now rap it all up in a war...call it the war for One Piece (the original DF).


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## Aduro (Feb 8, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Only way Oda can fuck up as bad as Kishi is if Black Beard is actually Gol D Roger's puppet, who's actually the puppet of the Herald of the Fox Goddess who has dominion over all Devil Fruit and Haki, after eating the fruit from the Haki Devil Tree.
> 
> Oh and throw in some dead characters and inhuman opponents (preferably plants) so our MCs don't dirty their hands. Now rap it all up in a war...call it the war for One Piece (the original DF).



Haki was a bad idea all by itself, Its great for  Oda because he's got a vague way to make Luffy seem special with the emperor's one without having to give him special qualities besides hitting stuff and it saves him the effort of writing bullshit PIS to save Luffy from Logias like Crocodile. Also, main characters not having to dirty their hands?

*Spoiler*: __ 














That's 4 more kills than Robin's had since the Strawhats took her in for basically no good reason and she's supposed to be an assassin. All serious and hardcore deaths by main characters off the top of my head. Arguably Naruto injured Kakuzu beyond the point of medical ninjutsu too and Sasuke drove Deidara and Itachi to their deaths.


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## Jon Moxley (Feb 8, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Yeah ... too much consistency. As said before, *One Piece has formulaic arcs.*
> Alabasta and Skypeia are the same. Luffy goes, explores, meets a girl, she cries, theres some Logia villain who gets hyped, Luffy easily figures out/exploits their weakness and beats them. Dressrosa is exactly the same as Alabasta for .
> 
> You may say "but that was just 3 arcs" but those three arcs account for 25% of the manga up to date (200+ chapters in total out of 815 chapters).
> ...





Hinata is a generic shy girl


Sakura is generic kick a guy's ass girl

Naruto wears almost the same type of gear as Goku


They have 'saiyan' powers somehow


and you're saying they're unique?


BWAHAHAHAHA


Ninjas with magic is all it is .


One moment they try to be comedic then they try to be political up their own butts, then they try to act like it's only action.



I read all of Naruto and not one of the arcs you say is unique or different


The story is as bland as you can get . 


A hero overcomes odds, saves girl, bam gets his dream.


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 8, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Haki was a bad idea all by itself, Its great for  Oda because he's got a vague way to make Luffy seem special with the emperor's one without having to give him special qualities besides hitting stuff and it saves him the effort of writing bullshit PIS to save Luffy from Logias like Crocodile. Also, main characters not having to dirty their hands?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



She's an Archaeologist (who's goal massively ties to one of the great mysteries in the series...the void century) 

Being an assassin was her cover.

Try again


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## Milliardo (Feb 8, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Haki was a bad idea all by itself, Its great for  Oda because he's got a vague way to make Luffy seem special with the emperor's one without having to give him special qualities besides hitting stuff and it saves him the effort of writing bullshit PIS to save Luffy from Logias like Crocodile. Also, main characters not having to dirty their hands?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


death means nothing in naruto though. They only go to a happier place. As we seen with obito and he was a world wide criminal.


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## Jon Moxley (Feb 8, 2016)

Naruto part one was great , I can't even deny it.

Part two fell down hard and it felt more like it was wanking and then the whole fanservice at the end showed me how much of a sellout Kishi was.


OP's Marine Ford Arc was an amazing arc that actually felt like it was beautifully built up.


How do you have an ending be lack luster like Naruto's?


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## Tapion (Feb 8, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Haki was a bad idea all by itself, Its great for  Oda because he's got a vague way to make Luffy seem special with the emperor's one without having to give him special qualities besides hitting stuff and it saves him the effort of writing bullshit PIS to save Luffy from Logias like Crocodile.



While a random point, I do agree. Feel you took my post too seriously.



Aduro said:


> Also, main characters not having to dirty their hands?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



By MC I was referring to the guy who said he was going to end the cycle of hatred. You know? The child of prophecy. Kakashi is a veteran and he doesn't share Naruto's Idealistic bullshit. Naruto always converts his enemies and forgives them. Sasuke is an anti-hero and he doesn't share Naruto's bullshit ideals again. 

The question is, what if Madara/tobi were more organized? Using rouges and Small ninja villages that aren't apart of the Larger villages that aren't evil but agree with Madara's plan due to being shunned. Throw in a few plants and zombies if you like.

With all this in mind, My question is what would Naruto do If he actually had to pile up bodies to stop Mugen Tsukyomi? His actions would clearly perpetuate the cycle of hatred and he would have to dirty his hands. However, he isn't allowed to dirty his hand and as a result looks pure and just. His flimsy ideals hold due to convenience of the plot.

He tackles whats wrong with the system....By not being a part of it...Boring.


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## Milliardo (Feb 8, 2016)

Dean Ambrose said:


> How do you have an ending be lack luster like Naruto's?


you stop caring.


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## Baroxio (Feb 9, 2016)

I don't see how this is even a question. Oda doesn't have characters who go through NEGATIVE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT that completely erases their own major character arcs (Sakura should be the poster child for such a thing). He also doesn't have characters introduced as powerful comrades only to become nothing more than cheerleaders for the OP main characters, which both Kishimoto and Toriyama are guilty of. Anyone remember Yaijirobe?


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## shade0180 (Feb 9, 2016)

Dean Ambrose said:


> A hero overcomes odds, saves girl, bam gets his dream.



I like this analogy

Hero = Naruto
Girl = Sauce
Dream = Hokage





> Anyone remember Yaijirobe?



Toriyama gave a good excuse for Yajirobe, He literally made him a very strong and lazy character who doesn't even like to move. we don't even know if Yajirobe is a martial artist. He's this random dude with a sword who likes eating.  

Kishi can't have any excuses for his strong characters considering they are part of a system that exclusively trained them to be powerful assassins. so the only option they have to not muddle up the plot is to end up as cheerleaders for the main cast that needs to move instead of them doing the work themselves.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

Dean Ambrose said:


> Hinata is a generic shy girl
> 
> 
> Sakura is generic kick a guy's ass girl


Two different girls > EB Nam/Rebcca/Vivi/Conis/Shirahoshi, who are all the same


> Naruto wears almost the same type of gear as Goku


And Caesar Clown was a copy of Orochimaru and Frieza. And a pathetic one at that.


> They have 'saiyan' powers somehow


No they don't. Naruto is a Jinchuriki. Jinchuriki didnt get reused like SSJ did. Not trying to shoot Toryiyama down but just saiyan lol.


> and you're saying they're unique?


More unique than One Piece characters.


> BWAHAHAHAHA


AHAHAHAHAHA


> Ninjas with magic is all it is .


Pirates with plot armour is all it is.
How Oda gonna take away the one fight Law needed to win so Luffy could neg yet another warlord. Luffy has inilftrated all the main WG strongholds and defeated 3 Shichibukai yet Eustass Kid has a bounty almost as high as Luffy - yet hes done nothing. Hes just a sidelined character who Oda hyped in order to keep the manga's  open - options he will never explore. I'm not saying OP isnt interesting but the manga can sometimes be pretty generic and dry. He showed us Kaido like 20 chapters ago just to do nothing with him. He neglected Sanji for 2 years and now hes trying to make up for it with this predictable marriage storyline. Zoro was right when he had that argument with Luffy in the recent chapter.


> One moment they try to be comedic then they try to be political up their own butts, then they try to act like it's only action.


What???



> I read all of Naruto and not one of the arcs you say is unique or different
> 
> 
> The story is as bland as you can get .
> ...


Naruto goes on his first big mission to save a town from mercenaries, drug kingpins, mafia crime lords and black markets. When he gets back he starts training for a tournament which will get him promoted. We see lots of new introduced characters as they go through a written test, survival test and battle test, then when they have the finals, the vilage gets attcked by a Sannin, who kills Hokage, so the other Sannin takes Naruto out of Konoha on a training journey to find the 3rd Sanin so that she can become the Hokage, and the Sannin face off.

Part 1 Naruto > One Piece's best arcs, but i'll agree Fishman Island was better than some Part 2  arcs. All these arcs were unique. In which arc did Naruto save a girl? In Sasuke Retrieval he didnt save a girl. In Kazekage arc Sakura had her own fight with Chiyo, unlike Oda, who treats his hoes badly if you what i mean. In the next arc Shikamaru gt development and trianed more, then Itachi vs Sasuke and Jiraiya vs Pain happened.

Naruto was never saving whiny girls because in Naruto the girls can actually fight.
One Piece is the opposite of this.



shade0180 said:


> I like this analogy
> 
> Hero = Naruto
> Girl = Sauce
> Dream = Hokage


Funny considering all of this happened only at the end of the manga while the rest (bar the war arc) was unique and entertaining. One Piece has had the same arc 5 times
Arlong Park = Fishman Island =/= Dressrosa = Alabasta = Skypeia and i'm sure thats not the last time we'll have an arc like that. The upcoming arc will be the same. Girl doesnt want to be forced into marriage. Luffy and Sanji sympathise with her. They beat Big Mom's ass and take her away as knights in shining armour. Even Amazon Lily was quite similar, though more toned down.n Was Robin not a whiny bitch at Enies Lobby. Luffy has saved too many of these girls. Naruto has saved 1 maybe two at most, but to  be fair, Pain killed Hinata (and brought her back) and Sakura was holding her own in part 2.

Its either we get those generic arcs or its Zoro wanking. Oda doesnt know how to do anything else.
Alabasta is like my fav arc but i hate so many others cos it was like watching the same thing over and over.

What saved this manga imo is the golden period from Water 7 (Enies Lobby/Thriller Bark/Amazon/Impel Down) to Marineford where the manga wasnt one of these three things
A: Luffy beating a Shichibukai for no reason other than plot (Moria lost legitimately, Croco/Doffy imo did not)
B: whiny bitches (Nami/Conis/Rebecca/Shirahoshi/Marguerite/Robin/Vivi)
C: sidelining everyone else to wank Zoro (aka Dressrosa Arc)




> Toriyama gave a good excuse for Yajirobe, He literally made him a very strong and lazy character who doesn't even like to move. we don't even know if Yajirobe is a martial artist. He's this random dude with a sword who likes eating.
> 
> Kishi can't have any excuses for his strong characters considering they are part of a system that exclusively trained them to be powerful assassins. so the only option they have to not muddle up the plot is to end up as cheerleaders for the main cast that needs to move instead of them doing the work themselves.


Krillin was sidelined after Frieza arc and there is no excuse for it. Do I need to name more examples?

I'm not going to deny this but tell me which characters got sidelined.
All of these people got development: Team 10, Sakura, Hinata, Sannin, Madara, Hashirama, and maybe it wasnt enough, but Oda neglected Sanji (who is arguably the 3rd most important main character) for 2 whole years just to wank Zoro so Kishi isn't exactly a golden boy either.


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## shade0180 (Feb 9, 2016)

I'm not even talking about Oda in my post.



> Krillin was sidelined after Frieza arc and there is no excuse for it. Do I need to name more examples?



Er there is. Pretty much every human character at that point is sidelined due to being too weak to stay relevant in the series.. Which included Tein, Bulma, Chao, Yamcha, Roshi because in an earlier arc we have seen what the human limit was.. If anything Krillin is even luckier considering he was the only human who entered alien level in the series without needing to sacrifice anything due to Guru. Tien strongest attack need to sacrifice his life force and that won't even dent characters like Nappa. 

DB would have been worse if Toriyama pretended that the human characters are still relevant when the audience can clearly see and know they aren't just like what Kishi did with Sakura or even Kakashi.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 9, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Only way Oda can fuck up as bad as Kishi is if Black Beard is actually Gol D Roger's puppet, who's actually the puppet of the Herald of the Fox Goddess who has dominion over all Devil Fruit and Haki, after eating the fruit from the Haki Devil Tree.
> 
> Oh and throw in some dead characters and inhuman opponents (preferably plants) so our MCs don't dirty their hands. Now rap it all up in a war...call it the war for One Piece (the original DF).



one piece is actually the friendships they made on the way


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> one piece is actually the friendships they made on the way



Holy shit, lmao. I lol'd


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 9, 2016)

"Part 1 Naruto > One Piece's best arcs"

lol, Part 1 only had two good arcs, and the acclaimed Chunin Exams arc wasn't even Kishimoto's idea, at all. He copied the majority of the concepts behind the Chunin Exams from the Hunter Exams of Hunter x Hunter. Not only that, but he never intended to write a tournament arc in the first place. He only wrote it in the demand of his first editor, Kosuke Yahagi.


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## Uraharа (Feb 9, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> "Part 1 Naruto > One Piece's best arcs"
> 
> lol, Part 1 only had two good arcs, and the acclaimed Chunin Exams arc wasn't even Kishimoto's idea, at all. He copied the majority of the concepts behind the Chunin Exams from the Hunter Exams of Hunter x Hunter. Not only that, but he never intended to write a tournament arc in the first place. He only wrote it in the demand of his first editor, Kosuke Yahagi.


Alright alright we get it, you hate Kishi and the series.


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## Tapion (Feb 9, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> one piece is actually the friendships they made on the way



Well shit


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## HunterxH (Feb 9, 2016)

They're both not very good. This is like the Special Olympics of manga writers. In the end they both lose because both of their shows are retarded, even for a shounen. They're both DBZ's red-headed step-children and have somehow become worse than a show made in the 80's by an author who was known for his toilet humor. 

Compare them to other manga worth a lick and you'll see how lackluster they are as a whole. No one who has watched any decent anime, or read a decent manga, could ever seriously defend these two shows even against one another, because in the end they both lose.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> I'm not even talking about Oda in my post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is that why Kakashi and Sakura participated in the final battle of the series against Kaguya


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## Tapion (Feb 9, 2016)

Yeah after a good amount of ass pulls and outliers to make them keep up.

Sakura Punching Kaguya, kek.

Kakakish Perfect Susano, kek.


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## shade0180 (Feb 9, 2016)

> Is that why Kakashi and Sakura participated in the final battle of the series against Kaguya



I can list the bullshit in that fight and it wouldn't be less than 10..

1. Sakura - Having more chakra than Naruto who had a portion of 9 bijuu's in him
2. Sakura - Cracking Kaguya's horn when 9 bijudama rasenshuriken didn't even damage her clothing or even her hair.
3 Sakura - Blindsiding a character with SM senses and 360 degree vision
4 Sakura - Outrunning Kaguya's chakra arm that was fast enough to catch Nardo and Sauce
5 Sakura - Standing properly on the Gravity world when Naruto, Sauce and Kaguya couldn't even stand at all.
6 Kakashi and half dead Obito running on Gravity world
7 Kakashi getting PS
8 Obito crossing over and giving his Sharingan power to Kakashi
9 Kaguya forgetting she can open dimensional holes to transfer single characters or even just herself when team 7 cornered her.
10 Kaguya forgetting she can use Amenotejikara when she had used it just earlier to avoid Sauce attack on her.

there's more I won't bother posting though.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> They're both not very good. This is like the Special Olympics of manga writers. In the end they both lose because both of their shows are retarded, even for a shounen. They're both DBZ's red-headed step-children and have somehow become worse than a show made in the 80's by an author who was known for his toilet humor.
> 
> Compare them to other manga worth a lick and you'll see how lackluster they are as a whole. No one who has watched any decent anime, or read a decent manga, could ever seriously defend these two shows even against one another, because in the end they both lose.



Are you serious? 
excluding post TS arcs, OP is a masterpiece, and this is something that i can't say about HxH...
Calling OP retarded...care to explain why? 
"even for a shounen"
>implying that shounen is retarded 99% of the time
HxH IS a shounen, you know, and prime OP shits on HxH (which had it's shameful moments, and not because of "lol shounen", but because of Togashi being retarded aswell, he isn't different at all)

I've watched a lot of anime and i can defend OP, and that's not even subjective at all, show me your reasoning as to why OP is retarded and then we can talk. I don't need to defend Naruto in the same way that i defend OP (even though it's my favorite series) because it's not as good as OP. Oda was in a league of his own, and Kishi destroyed his story midway, that's not even fair to compare them. 

But really, what the hell do you think about HxH, then? some GOAT, mature and complex shounen? lmao 
Everything has it's flaws, no biggie.

"Compare them to other manga worth a lick and you'll see how lackluster they are as a whole"

Death Note (lol shounen)/Claymore/SNK/Heroic Age/Densetsu no yuusha no Densetsu (just some good shows, not my best picks, of course)
Can you truly say that these shows can make OP look lackluster in some way?


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> They're both not very good. This is like the Special Olympics of manga writers. In the end they both lose because both of their shows are retarded, even for a shounen. They're both DBZ's red-headed step-children and have somehow become worse than a show made in the 80's by an author who was known for his toilet humor.
> 
> Compare them to other manga worth a lick and you'll see how lackluster they are as a whole. No one who has watched any decent anime, or read a decent manga, could ever seriously defend these two shows even against one another, because in the end they both lose.



To put an end to this thread, I quite like this post.

Both mangas have failed where the other has succeeded. Oda has excelled in world building and support cast development. Kishimoto has not. Kishimoto does not use boring formulaic arcs 7 times over. Oda has. Kishimoto made he manga about Sasuke and ignored Naruto for a while. Oda wanked Zoro for 100 chapters/2 years while pushing Luffy and Sanji to the side, along with everyone else. Kishimoto has left too much to mystery and fan decision. Oda has started plotlines hundreds of chapters ago which have been forgotten i.e. Kinemon mystery. The WarArc was dragged out. And so was Dressrosa. Fishman Island was trash. So was .... *I actually can't think of another Naruto arc that was desperately bad so I'll just leave it there. *So in reality, both lose.

As much as Naruto will always have a place in my heart (hell to One piece and the Mihawk wankers who make up 90% of it's illiterate fandom), you're actually right. None of these mangas have or ever will become a household name like DBZ (note that Naruto is closer to achieving this than One Piece is based on my personal experiences) and I guess there are just better mangas and animes out there, some Shounen (Attack on Titan/Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood) and some non Shounen (Durarara!!, which has the best manga character of all time. Does anyone know what his name is?) so let's put this debate to rest before people start getting (verbally/emotionally) hurt, but I will say this.

Naruto for the most part has entertained me more than One Piece has, and while Water 7 to Marineford was Shounen Gold, I will say this whole formulaic arc nonsense Oda is doing has annoyed to the point where I could say Fairy Tail, warts and all, might be better than One Piece if not in terms of the quality of the manga and plotlines, in the terms of entertaining us, whether that is developing side characters like Sting, Rogue, Lucy, Gajeel x Levy, and giving us good fanservice (I'm quoting actual FT fans with the fanservice/shipping comment). This is not bait or trolling. This is just my opinion. Because honestly entertainment is the main thing I want to get out of the manga and for me, DBZ = Naruto > Fairy Tail > One Piece in terms of entertainment, even though i agree One Piece as a whole is better than Fairy Tail.

Because the thing is with Shounen Manga, its a competitive industry we don't see with manga like Durarara!! or Attack on Titan or Soul Eater, as much, for example. Everyone who watches it loves it because of it's individuality. But with Naruto, DBZ, One Piece, Fairy Tail, its all based on subjective preference, not the objective quality of the series, *because you'll never have a Shounen Manga* that will please everyone. There will always be differences, resulting from the debates like the ones had here, when in reality, none is actually better than the other because they all succeed where the other fails and vice-versa.

I wish Naruto was more like One Piece because of the world building character development I would like to see, but then I want One Piece to be like Naruto because One Piece is boring and formulaic. There doesn't exist a manga that pleases everyone. DBZ is the one that comes closest. It has side cast development and good world universe building.

DBZ > Naruto >/= (probably =) One Piece =/= Fairy Tail. End of. I won't speak on Bleach because I haven't fully watched it yet, but I intend to one day.


*
/THREAD*​
[sp] 





HunterxH said:


> Compare them to *other manga worth a lick* and you'll see how lackluster they are as a whole. No one who has watched any decent anime, or read a decent manga, could ever seriously defend these two shows even against one another, because in the end they both lose.



I'm curious. What mangas/animes were you referring to. They might be ones I've seen/heard of or ones I haven't, and need to watch, because I'm seriously one foot out the door when it comes to dropping one piece (and Naruto is over so I need some good mangas/animes to read/watch) so I'd like you to recommend some for me please.[/sp]


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

Fucking DBZ? Seriously? I give up, lol


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## Meat (Feb 9, 2016)

If only OP made a Kishi VS Kubo thread, it'll be 10x better and 100x more hilarious.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 9, 2016)

Meat said:


> If only OP made a Kishi VS Kubo thread, it'll be 10x better and 100x more hilarious.



that would actually be a contest

it might even provoke interesting debate

mostly centred around whether it's worse to try and fail miserably and completely, or not try to do anything


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Fucking DBZ? Seriously? I give up, lol



DBZ is better than One Piece. It is more iconic than One Piece. It has less stupidity than One Piece.

So what, my friend, are you talking about?


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> DBZ is better than One Piece. It is more iconic than One Piece. It has less stupidity than One Piece.
> 
> So what, my friend, are you talking about?



Are you joking or something? because i can't tell 
DBZ has a shit tier story, characters(lol anyone that isn't a SSJ), world building (lol Namek), fights (lol punches and kicks). What can you do more to damage the series? Oh, no real drama (lol mass revival everytime), childish comedy, and boring main villians (with the same and most unoriginal goals of all time)

I can understand that as a child you will like it (action and no standards at all), but if you want to take it seriously, it's just bad.
I think that the only series (battle shounen) that DBZ is superior to is Fairy Tail (maybe you can argue that it's better than Bleach, too, but meh, idk)

I tried to watch Dragon Ball Super, you know, for the nostalgia, but oh man...that anime is HORRIBLE. (Not to mention that Battle of Gods was a fucking waste of time)

Also, just for the record, Goku and Vegeta are fucking stupid characters, like really...
Just can't forget Vegeta being all cocky against Cell and letting him absorb android 18 and getting more haxxed, fuck this shit ;/
I hate Goku's "silly" moments, it's not funny, and it's just bad.

Don't get me wrong, you can like BAD things and still enjoy them (I like Naruto) but atleast be honest when you try to offer an objective claim.
it was quite fun watching DBKai 2 years ago (to some degree), it was entertaining, but that's it.


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## Reyes (Feb 9, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> that would actually be a contest
> 
> it might even provoke interesting debate
> 
> mostly centred around whether it's worse to try and fail miserably and completely, or not try to do anything



Damn, now I wished someone made this thread instead.

God, IzayaOrihara posts are awful.


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## HunterxH (Feb 9, 2016)

DBZ is a show that knows what it is and doesn't pretend to be anything else. That's all there is to it really. It doesn't try to sell you a moral, it doesn't try to get overly philosophical, it doesn't try to educate you on an obscure topic, it stays true to itself. Yet somehow the show can be as deep as any other without even trying to be.

Goku is one of the deepest main protagonists in shounen history because he isn't black and white. Kishi and Oda failed to emulate what Goku represented. He's a Saiyan who loves fighting, who loves to battle. 

He loves it so much that he leaves his family.

He loves it so much that he'd reincarnate an almighty demon just to fight it again.

He loves it so much that he'd give his opponent a sensu bean to heal to make the fight fair.

He loves it so much that he'd send his own 11 year old son out to fight instead in order for him to unlock his power.

He loves it so much that he'd refuse to take vengeance on an intergalactic tyrant who murdered his best friend since the fight wasn't interesting anymore.

He loves it so much that he'd almost rather _die_ than get help from even his own friends and family to defeat a God.

The same thing that spurs him on to protect others is the very same thing that creates his dramatic foil. He is extremely proud of his hard work and his power, but that makes him extremely arrogant.

Luffy nor Naruto show that level of depth, because the authors didn't look deep enough into what made Goku, Goku. Gon is a character who emulates this far better, and is the deepest shounen protagonist I have ever seen (rivaling Edward Elric).

And I didn't even touch on Vegeta's character development and growth.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> DBZ is a show that knows what it is and doesn't pretend to be anything else. That's all there is to it really. It doesn't try to sell you a moral, it doesn't try to get overly philosophical, it doesn't try to educate you on an obscure topic, it stays true to itself. Yet somehow the show can be as deep as any other without even trying to be.
> 
> Goku is one of the deepest main protagonists in shounen history because he isn't black and white. Kishi and Oda failed to emulate what Goku represented. He's a Saiyan who loves fighting, who loves to battle.
> 
> ...



Do you understand what deep even means? Firstly, Goku is just an asshole. If anything, Toriyama failed to showcase him as a righteous hero, he is just a stupid and horrible dad.

Edward Elric is a quite dumb and naive protagonist aswell, but he is a little better than those two.
Also, i lol'd about Goku and Gon being deep characters, are you even trying? lol
Meruem from HxH is the only good character that can be considered as "deep" 
Nice ignore from my previous post, but oh well.


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## Veris (Feb 9, 2016)

Reyes said:


> Damn, now I wished someone made this thread instead.



Didn't OP add Kubo to the mix? Might as well discuss here.

For all of Kishi's shortcomings, he's not quite at the level of Kubo. Naruto is a kid's comic and knows it, while Bleach may as well be the definition of pretentious.


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## HunterxH (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Do you understand what deep even means? Firstly, Goku is just an asshole. If anything, Toriyama failed to showcase him as a righteous hero, he is just a stupid and horrible dad.
> 
> Edward Elric is a quite dumb and naive protagonist aswell, but he is a little better than those two.
> Also, i lol'd about Goku and Gon being deep characters, are you even trying? lol
> ...



You're a lost cause. I don't have the time nor the patience to indulge you.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> You're a lost cause. I don't have the time nor the patience to indulge you.



If you say so


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 9, 2016)

You guys keep involving Togashi into this (when he has no business in this discussion).

Togashi is Great and all (and way superior to Kishi obviously).

But talking about how great HXH is, is meaningless if Togashi never completes it.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

HxH is the most overrated shit ever, it's not even funny by now 
"How great HxH is" - The discussion is about a better manga than HxH (OP), and even FMAB is >=HxH, but some people keep mentioning Togashi did this and Togashi did that...oh well.

For me, it would be something like:

1. Hunter Exam - 9/10.
2. Zoldyck Family - 7/10.
3. Heavens Arena - 8/10.
4. Yorknew City - 9.5/10.
5. Greed Island - 8/10.
6. Chimera Ant - 7.5/10.
7. 13th Hunter Chairman Election - 7/10 

I rest my case


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## Raniero (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> If anything, Toriyama failed to showcase him as a righteous hero, he is just a stupid and horrible dad.


Actually, Toriyama admitted he never meant to portray Goku as a righteous hero and that he is a bad dad. 



Mikon said:


> HxH is the most overrated shit ever, it's not even funny by now
> "How great HxH is" - The discussion is about a better manga than HxH (OP), and even FMAB is >=HxH, but some people keep mentioning Togashi did this and Togashi did that...oh well.
> 
> For me, it would be something like:
> ...


None of those scores are even that bad. In fact, you rated the worst arc in the series the second highest


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## Lucaniel (Feb 9, 2016)

Veris said:


> For all of Kishi's shortcomings, he's not quite at the level of Kubo. Naruto is a kid's comic and knows it.


no, no way. kishi has obviously tried to reach for something beyond being a kid's comic  for most of part II, and the more he tries to talk about the broken system, war, or racial discrimination, all while changing the tone of the comic to become increasingly more dour and gruesome, the more it becomes obvious that he doesn't know he isn't equipped to explore these things


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

Raniero said:


> Actually, Toriyama admitted he never meant to portray Goku as a righteous hero and that he is a bad dad.
> 
> 
> None of those scores are even that bad. In fact, you rated the worst arc in the series the second highest



Hunter Exam is the worst? why 
Don't get me wrong, i like HxH and it's really one of the few decent (even great) battle-shounen out there, but it's not as good as people make it sound. Togashi never did something so amazing that he should be considered as an amazing writer and better than the likes of Oda.
Sure, you can say that he did some things better, but that's not the case with HxH fans most of the time, don't you agree? I like the series, and Madhouse did a great job about it, but that's it :/


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## Raniero (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Hunter Exam is the worst? why
> Don't get me wrong, i like HxH and it's really one of the few decent (even great) battle-shounen out there, but it's not as good as people make it sound. Togashi never did something so amazing that he should be considered as an amazing writer and better than the likes of Oda.
> Sure, you can say that he did some things better, but that's not the case with HxH fans most of the time, don't you agree? I like the series, and Madhouse did a great job about it, but that's it :/


I think HxH is better, but I won't knock somebody for preferring OP over it.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

Raniero said:


> I think HxH is better, but I won't knock somebody for preferring OP over it.



Thing is that liking OP more than HxH (in my case) is not the reason that i say Oda>Togashi
You can get into a debate and show your opinion, that's what forums are for.
But just saying something like a fact is not how you do it. I have no problem showing my reasons as to why HxH is really overrated and has it's fuck ups, but nvm.


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## Raniero (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Thing is that liking OP more than HxH (in my case) is not the reason that i say Oda>Togashi


Oda is > Togashi, imo, because Togashi is a lazy bastard who gets a free pass from Shonen Jump and neglects his fandom, while Oda actually works his ass off to the point he writes OP when in the hospital. 



> You can get into a debate and show your opinion, that's what forums are for.
> But just saying something like a fact is not how you do it. I have no problem showing my reasons as to why HxH is really overrated and has it's fuck ups, but nvm.


Are you really hung up over me calling it the worst arc? Fine, the Hunter Exams is the worst arc _in my opinion_.

Don't really care why you think HxH is overrated, since it's probably gonna be the same thing I've heard hundreds of times already.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

Raniero said:


> Oda is > Togashi, imo, because Togashi is a lazy bastard who gets a free pass from Shonen Jump and neglects his fandom, while Oda actually works his ass off to the point he writes OP when in the hospital.
> 
> 
> Are you really hung up over me calling it the worst arc? Fine, the Hunter Exams is the worst arc _in my opinion_.
> ...



The things that i've said were about the fanbase of HxH in general, not about you calling Hunter Exam the worst arc  
Everything's good


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Do you understand what deep even means? Firstly, Goku is just an asshole. If anything, Toriyama failed to showcase him as a righteous hero, he is just a stupid and horrible dad.



No, you misinterpreted what Toriyama stated. Toriyama said that he has always been dissatisfied with how _Toei Animation_ portrayed Goku in a righteous hero manner. They couldn't grasp the poison that slips in and out of Goku. He let a despicable person like Vegeta, who murdered all his friends off the hook based solely on the supremely selfish desire to fight him again someday like he did with Piccolo Jr. Toei and Funimation tried to remedy this and make Goku appear less terrible but the original manga seems plain to me that he only had Kuririn spare Vegeta due to his unquenchable bloodlust. Also, keep in mind that Vegeta tried to murder everyone else on Earth as well, thus, attempted genocide is another thing Goku shrugged off just because he wants to fight Vegeta again.

Then there's the fact that Goku let Dr. Gero off the hook and allowed him to build the Artificial Humans during the three year timeskip despite Bulma and Trunks' suggestions. Then comes my favorite aspect of Goku which is from the Boo saga. The Northern Kaioshin stated flat-out that preventing Boo from hatching is a more important matter than Goku or Vegeta's petty egos. What does Goku do? Indulge his ego, fight Vegeta and thus, revive Boo who goes on his way to kill the human race, his family and friends. All of which were Goku's fault.

Also, no, Goku is not a terrible father. How the hell can he be a terrible father when he was _dead_ over the course of his fatherhood? You've probably just been watching too much TeamFourStar to the point where everything they say has imprinted on you.



> Also, i lol'd about Goku and Gon being deep characters, are you even trying? lol



No, HunterxH is right. Goku is a more complex character than people give him credit for. Goku's moral compasses always exclusively begins and ends with fighting, that certain aspect of his character has been encompassed in Battle of Gods when Goku's morality is being questioned because of his love for fighting. He's the definition of a chaotic neutral character.

Regarding Gon, Gon does not value morals. He never chastises characters like Killua about their morality or tries to redeem anyone. He gives zero stupid speeches like Naruto does. He is a pragmatist that cares about the results and outcome. If he has to kill someone, or even if it would be extremely convenient, he'll do it. If he sees a friend that is forced to engage in any activity they do not want to be doing, he will try to stop it. He values vengeance. He took an innocent hostage and threatened to kill her out of impatience and vendetta in the Chimera Ant arc. 

It's also shown by how he oftentimes refuses to help people who aren't related to him who cries after help right before him. Gon has this abnormal "cave man" value, if you harm his tribe he will kill you, both out of his obligations to protect his tribe and out of respect of his bond with another person. If you harm nearly anyone else in his range, he couldn't care less about you. He has some primitive and bizarre concept of what fairness is, and even if it doesn't really make sense, it is internally consistent. It's like a tribal who has a strange god.

Gon is not the typical righteous shonen protagonist and is probably one of the biggest examples of a true neutral character in shonen.



> Meruem from HxH is the only good character that can be considered as "deep"



That depends on _your_ definition of deep.


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## shade0180 (Feb 9, 2016)

Keep talking about HxH as if that's the only series Togashi has under his belt.



Yu Yu Hakushu anyone?


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 9, 2016)

Yu Yu Hakusho is generic shonen, but generic shonen of the good kind. I still think it should've ended after the Dark Tournament saga. It all went downhill after that point, to be honest. Togashi should've just let Kuwabara and Genkai remain dead like he intended instead of bringing them back to life.


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## Platypus (Feb 9, 2016)

braveheart said:


> Okay, now you're really getting off-topic.
> Thread's still Kishi vs. Oda (& vs. Toriyama), as defined by OP.



(& vs. Kubo)

Chill, heart. Thread's in Akihabara now.


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## heartsutra (Feb 9, 2016)

Platypus said:


> (& vs. Kubo)
> 
> Chill, heart. Thread's in Akihabara now.



gg.
Wasn't aware of it but you're right.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> No, you misinterpreted what Toriyama stated. Toriyama said that he has always been dissatisfied with how _Toei Animation_ portrayed Goku in a righteous hero manner. They couldn't grasp the poison that slips in and out of Goku. He let a despicable person like Vegeta, who murdered all his friends off the hook based solely on the supremely selfish desire to fight him again someday like he did with Piccolo Jr. Toei and Funimation tried to remedy this and make Goku appear less terrible but the original manga seems plain to me that he only had Kuririn spare Vegeta due to his unquenchable bloodlust. Also, keep in mind that Vegeta tried to murder everyone else on Earth as well, thus, attempted genocide is another thing Goku shrugged off just because he wants to fight Vegeta again.
> 
> Then there's the fact that Goku let Dr. Gero off the hook and allowed him to build the Artificial Humans during the three year timeskip despite Bulma and Trunks' suggestions. Then comes my favorite aspect of Goku which is from the Boo saga. The Northern Kaioshin stated flat-out that preventing Boo from hatching is a more important matter than Goku or Vegeta's petty egos. What does Goku do? Indulge his ego, fight Vegeta and thus, revive Boo who goes on his way to kill the human race, his family and friends. All of which were Goku's fault.
> 
> .



Well, you just showed me how terrible and selfish Goku really is. Your point? 



HoroHoro said:


> Also, no, Goku is not a terrible father. How the hell can he be a terrible father when he was _dead_ over the course of his fatherhood? You've probably just been watching too much TeamFourStar to the point where everything they say has imprinted on you.
> .



I don't even know who are TeamFourStar, lmao

Goku IS a terrible father. He cares just about fighting, not really Gohan's future or anything, lol
Did you forget that Goku just was like "Gohan, you handle this, i belive in you" in the fight against Cell? He was doing all fine against him all alone, but stepped outside and let his son take the beating instead? talk about stupid and careless father. Yeah, sure Gohan has some amazing potential and the good guys will always win, but you need to understand the principle behind it, and how it makes Goku look bad (not that he needs anything, you mentioned enough, rofl)

Maybe you'll say that Ging wasn't such a bad father, too? 



HoroHoro said:


> No, HunterxH is right. Goku is a more complex character than people give him credit for. Goku's moral compasses always exclusively begins and ends with fighting, that certain aspect of his character has been encompassed in Battle of Gods when Goku's morality is being questioned because of his love for fighting. He's the definition of a chaotic neutral character.
> 
> Regarding Gon, Gon does not value morals. He never chastises characters like Killua about their morality or tries to redeem anyone. He gives zero stupid speeches like Naruto does. He is a pragmatist that cares about the results and outcome. If he has to kill someone, or even if it would be extremely convenient, he'll do it. If he sees a friend that is forced to engage in any activity they do not want to be doing, he will try to stop it. He values vengeance. He took an innocent hostage and threatened to kill her out of impatience and vendetta in the Chimera Ant arc.
> 
> ...



Your definition of complex/deep is very wrong (and weird, btw)
Just because a character acts like an asshole/doesn't follow the moral codes of the good guys/acts a little different than your most generic protagonist, that doesn't mean anything about his complexity or such. What are you even trying to say? I really don't understand your reasoning.
Goku is almost like your most generic Bleach characters. Calling Goku even a 2D character is a strech.



HoroHoro said:


> That depends on _your_ definition of deep
> .



Well, i didn't know that everyone can have their own definiton of deep, lol (that would change it's right definition by default)

Guts, Kiritsugu, Musashi, Balsa, Reinhard and Lelouch are complex characters (Of course, not everyone are on the same level)


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 9, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Well, you just showed me how terrible and selfish Goku really is. Your point?



Point being that Goku was never a righteous hero to begin with, and that Toriyama wanted to get his point across with Goku's character flaws. You thought Toriyama failed to portray Goku as some righteous hero although Toriyama himself explicitly stated he never intended his character to be that in the first place.



> Goku IS a terrible father. He cares just about fighting, not really Gohan's future or anything, lol



He encouraged Gohan in attending school and following his dreams of becoming a scholar in the Cell Games.



> Did you forget that Goku just was like "Gohan, you handle this, i belive in you" in the fight against Cell? He was doing all fine against him all alone, but stepped outside and let his son take the beating instead? talk about stupid and careless father. Yeah, sure Gohan has some amazing potential and the good guys will always win, but you need to understand the principle behind it, and how it makes Goku look bad (not that he needs anything, you mentioned enough, rofl)



Goku would be a complete dumbass if he _didn't_ let Gohan fight Cell, regardless of his son's feelings. No amount of power Goku or the other Z Warriors had combined outside of Gohan would matter to Cell. Gohan needed to fight, and he needed to utilize Super Saiyan 2. Otherwise, Cell would have massacred everyone. Gohan was Earth's last hope to put an end to Cell. The only terrible thing Goku did was that he didn't tell Gohan in advance that he was planning on having Gohan fight Cell, so he's more emotionally prepared, and the fact that he gave Cell a senzu, but it allowed growth for Goku's character. 



> Maybe you'll say that Ging wasn't such a bad father, too?



He is. But I'm not talking about Ging at the moment, do I?



> Just because a character acts like an asshole/doesn't follow the moral codes of the good guys/acts a little different than your most generic protagonist, that doesn't mean anything about his complexity or such. What are you even trying to say? I really don't understand your reasoning.
> 
> Goku is almost like your most generic Bleach characters. Calling Goku even a 2D character is a strech.



Ok.



> Your definition of complex/deep is very wrong (and weird, btw)
> 
> Well, i didn't knew that everyone can have their own definiton of deep, lol (that would change it's right definition by default)
> 
> Guts, Kiritsugu, Musashi, Balsa, Reinhard and Lelouch are complex characters (Of course, not everyone are on the same level)



Depth and complexity of characterization is subjective, no character is inherently multilayered. It's all about how the spectator percieves them, whereas you consider Goku one-dimensional, I, on the other hand, can look beneath the surface of his character, and find new depths that makes his character.


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## Mikon (Feb 9, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Point being that Goku was never a righteous hero to begin with, and that Toriyama wanted to get his point across with Goku's character flaws. You thought Toriyama failed to portray Goku as some righteous hero although Toriyama himself explicitly stated he never intended his character to be that in the first place.
> 
> He encouraged Gohan in attending school and following his dreams of becoming a scholar in the Cell Games.
> 
> ...



So are you trying to say that he never intended Goku to be somewhat of an inspirational character for kids? as it's a shounen where the good guys will always win and hope defeats all evil? I mean, it's quite weird to do the things that you mention now, but from another way, it happens in a very cheesy shounen, what he is even trying to do? Might just write a seinen 

I never said that Goku is Hitler, lol
Yeah, maybe he's done some, little good, but he is a failure overall.

I don't really have a comment about the Gohan vs Cell stuff because it's more about Toriyama's writing being cheesy and VERY convenient, so it would be meaningless to talk about it without adressing the main problem in stuff like this (the author himself)

About the last part of your post, that's quite weird, tbh
Going be your logic, even the most shallow/dull character can be seen as complex/with some depth that the majority couldn't see

My real opinion about this part? I think that you just read WAY too far into this.
I don't think that even Toriyama himself thought about Goku in this way, lol


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## Keishin (Feb 9, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Haki was a bad idea all by itself, Its great for  Oda because he's got a vague way to make Luffy seem special with the emperor's one without having to give him special qualities besides hitting stuff and it saves him the effort of writing bullshit PIS to save Luffy from Logias like Crocodile. Also, main characters not having to dirty their hands?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



The kakashi ones arent intentional and Hidan is still alive according to kishi.


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## Aduro (Feb 9, 2016)

Keishin said:


> The kakashi ones arent intentional and Hidan is still alive according to kishi.



Kakashi intended to kill Zabuza but got Haku instead, that's one killing intent and one dead, he killed Kakuzu too. Plus Kakashi had to deal with feelings of guilt after killing Rin. Shikamaru leaving Hidan buried alive to slowly decompose isn't exactly sunshine and rainbows.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Depth and complexity of characterization is subjective, no character is inherently multilayered. It's all about how the spectator percieves them, whereas you consider Goku one-dimensional, I, on the other hand, can look beneath the surface of his character, and find new depths that makes his character.



And it's the same with manga. People can say Kishimoto failed in world building but I can look beneath it - the villages,  the histories etc. The thing is Kishi never gave us answers but he did give us questions - the reason  why forums like this even y exist


Reyes said:


> Damn, now I wished someone made this thread instead.
> 
> God, IzayaOrihara posts are awful.



That's your opinion. But I have made threads which attracted many responses. I debate well and with logic and have a good post record.  Who even asked you anyway?


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 9, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> And it's the same with manga. People can say Kishimoto failed in world building but I can look beneath it - the villages,  the histories etc. The thing is Kishi never gave us answers but he did give us questions - the reason  why forums like this even y exist



That's the only thing people can do on Naruto forums when it comes to world building.....Make *Theories* about things Kishi failed to explore or complete/fully explain.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> That's the only thing people can do on Naruto forums when it comes to world building.....Make *Theories* about things Kishi failed to explore or complete/fully explain.



Yeah and Oda does explore, but he uses formulaic arcs unlike Kishi so I'll say it once again, both succeed where the other fails.


Mikon said:


> Are you joking or something? because i can't tell
> DBZ has a shit tier story, characters(lol anyone that isn't a SSJ), world building (lol Namek), fights (lol punches and kicks). What can you do more to damage the series? Oh, no real drama (lol mass revival everytime), childish comedy, and boring main villians (with the same and most unoriginal goals of all time)
> 
> I can understand that as a child you will like it (action and no standards at all), but if you want to take it seriously, it's just bad.
> I think that the only series (battle shounen) that DBZ is superior to is Fairy Tail (maybe you can argue that it's better than Bleach, too, but meh, idk)


DBZ has had more success overall imo and I'm not talking about sales of the original manga. DBZ is a household name and has more relatable characters. One Piece is unrealistic even for a Shounen. But we all have a different opinion. 

You say "as a child?". Tell me how old _you _ are.


> I tried to watch Dragon Ball Super, you know, for the nostalgia, but oh man...that anime is HORRIBLE. (Not to mention that Battle of Gods was a fucking waste of time)



I enjoyed Super more than the whole of Dress Rosa. 



> Also, just for the record, Goku and Vegeta are fucking stupid characters, like really...


Luffy is stupider and I'm not just saying that out of spite 


> Just can't forget Vegeta being all cocky against Cell and letting him absorb android 18 and getting more haxxed, fuck this shit ;/
> I hate Goku's "silly" moments, it's not funny, and it's just bad.


Luffy says hes going to fight all four Yonko which I see as silly but the sad thing is Luffy will beat them so that makes like Natsu from FT. I'm not explain this whole opinion as I'll take too long.



> Don't get me wrong, you can like BAD things and still enjoy them (I like Naruto) but atleast be honest when you try to offer an objective claim.
> it was quite fun watching DBKai 2 years ago (to some degree), it was entertaining, but that's it.


Naruto is not bad. You can't label it like that. It is not any 'badder' than One Piece is. They both succeed where the other fails. You just enjoy that trash more than I enjoy this trash lol. Don't get me wrong, what's going on now in One Piece is interesting but Dress Rosa brought me this close to dropping the manga since it was a repeat of Alabasta, Skypeia, Fish man Island and Arlong Park and to an extent Amazon Lily. I've just had enough. I'm like one foot out the door after Law got beat so Luffy could have the win against DD. One more slip up from Oda and I'm dropping the manga.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 9, 2016)

Nah, Kishimoto's worldbuilding sucks, hard. They're all pretty much the same. Same political structure, same "village first" ideals. I think Kuromaku best described the worldbuilding in this blog .


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 9, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> DBZ is a show that knows what it is and doesn't pretend to be anything else. That's all there is to it really. It doesn't try to sell you a moral, it doesn't try to get overly philosophical, it doesn't try to educate you on an obscure topic, it stays true to itself. Yet somehow the show can be as deep as any other without even trying to be.
> 
> Goku is one of the deepest main protagonists in shounen history because he isn't black and white. Kishi and Oda failed to emulate what Goku represented. He's a Saiyan who loves fighting, who loves to battle.
> 
> ...


This basically. Kishi and Oda try to sell us morals but what do they know? Naruto is not homosexual yet he has an unhealthy obsession with Sasuke. That's a disgusting and unrelatable moral to sell.  An even cheaper and more annoying moral is Oda's one about politics and all that when he don't know anymore than we do. Luffy's addiction to beat up everyone and to have his cake and eat it too. It's just arrogance to sell these morals to make money. That's why I place mangas like FMA and Durarara and Ao no Exorcist as a few examples. They are so much more realistic and relatable and like DBZ know what they are talking about and not trying to sell morals they know nothing about - they stick to what they're best at and what they know. Though I do admire Luffy because of his greed to have everything he wants and be able to get it too because that can be relatable to some people such as myself.

And yes, Edward Elric and Goku are much deeper characters than Naruto who is inconsistent and Luffy who is just a bit confusing. I don't know who Gon is or what manga he comes from but I'm guessing from the debates it is HxH. Can someone tell me a little about this manga please and whether or not they think it is better than the ones be found de aged here and if it is worth reading or watching cos I need something new as I am one foot out the door where it concerns One Piece. One more repetitive arc or slip up like what happened with Luffy and Law where it concerns DD and I'm done with that manga.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 9, 2016)

Head to the Hunter x Hunter thread in the anime or manga section and ask there, or head to places like MyAnimeList or Wikipedia to get a quick synopsis of the series. If you liked series such as Yu Yu Hakusho, you might like it as it's written by the same author. It's one of the better shonen series out there. Keep in mind, the series is notorious for its annual hiatuses.


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## sasykei (Feb 10, 2016)

Mikon said:


> Are you serious?
> excluding post TS arcs, OP is a masterpiece, and this is something that i can't say about HxH...
> Calling OP retarded...care to explain why?
> "even for a shounen"
> ...



Lol what? Pre TS OP is overrated as fuck. People praise it like no end when its just an average adventure shounen. Toriko did it better pre-skop pacing wise. Adventure is just a fragment of HxHs story. Its all of OP's.


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## Mizura (Feb 10, 2016)

-Ziltoid- said:


> I think one of the things that Kishi had in his advantage is that he at least created questions. For instance the Uchiha massacre (who was wrong/right?) the minor nations (a theme dropped after Nagato died..). The political consequences, so to speak. But the big flaw in Kishi is that he fails in the connection of it, the consistency. He raises questions, yet doesn't answer them. Or very halfassed. That was why the conclusion of the manga sucked so badly. So many stupid things happened... but One Piece, on the other hand, never pretended to raise such questions. It's much more childish.


That's true. I think of it as the 'potential' that Kishimoto didn't expand upon. There were so many things readers would be interested about:
- What'd happen to Sasuke and the truth about the Uchiha past
- What was happening with other villages, and what their unique histories were like
- What were the other bijuus like
- How the support cast would overcome their own issues after the time skip
- How Naruto's generation was supposed to change the world
- *cough* Pairings *cough*

Sadly, the answers to just about every question sucked. Nearly everybody else became cheerleaders. The complex issues regarding the world was somehow reduced into a free-for-all against trees and zombies (what the heck was that? The world's worst idea for a Finale?). Naruto converted Sasuke by.... beating him up.

...



> But I'd rather take the Kubera world as an example of proper world building that One Piece.




This thread is kind of funny. People are arguing over which is worse when there's much better out there.


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## sasykei (Feb 10, 2016)

Tapion said:


> While a random point, I do agree. Feel you took my post too seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats wrong. Naruto was completely ready to form a second moon on earth, sacrifocing millions of lives.


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## Mizura (Feb 10, 2016)

sasykei said:


> Thats wrong. Naruto was completely ready to form a second moon on earth, sacrificing millions of lives.


So what? He never had to do that. That's the boring part about the way Naruto turned out. It was supposed to be a world of grey moralities, a world full of conflicts that couldn't be easily resolved.

However, Kishimoto bypassed every single moral dilemma when it came to his character. Naruto never had to make hard moral decisions: the world would bend to him instead. Can't have him lead others into a war where he'd have the deaths of actual people on his hands? No problem, make him fight plants and zombies. Can't make him convince Sasuke, now a criminal, to reform? ... oh wait, Sasuke did reform. He barely killed anyone, too. How about Pain? Was it fine to forgive him? Well sure it was, after all, he decided to suicide and bring everyone back, because Naruto.

Heck, once upon a time, Naruto had to bear with the fact that he had a monster in him, that he'd die if it were taken out, and then there were his ultimate attacks that were supposed to cause damage to him (including making him lose his mind via Kyuubi's power taking over). But by the end of the series, Kyuubi turned out to be a cute puppy and Naruto no longer took any damage whatsoever from his own attacks.

Even the hero of Onepunch-man is actually darker than Naruto. He does his thing and does it well, but doesn't actually give a crap about how many people die outside of his range.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

Mizura said:


> This thread is kind of funny. People are arguing over which is worse when there's much better out there.



Like what?  Give me examples?  I'm intrigued to know.


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## Seraphiel (Feb 10, 2016)

Mizura said:


> This thread is kind of funny. People are arguing over which is worse when there's much better out there.



There is really no manga, manhwa or webtoon I read that could keep it's quality consistent for as long as OP did.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Feb 10, 2016)

> Toriko did it better pre-skop pacing wise


smoke weed everyday.


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## Tapion (Feb 10, 2016)

sasykei said:


> Thats wrong. Naruto was completely ready to form a second moon on earth, sacrifocing millions of lives.



When was this? Post the chapter.



Mizura said:


> So what? He never had to do that. That's the boring part about the way Naruto turned out. It was supposed to be a world of grey moralities, a world full of conflicts that couldn't be easily resolved.
> 
> However, Kishimoto bypassed every single moral dilemma when it came to his character. Naruto never had to make hard moral decisions: the world would bend to him instead. Can't have him lead others into a war where he'd have the deaths of actual people on his hands? No problem, make him fight plants and zombies. Can't make him convince Sasuke, now a criminal, to reform? ... oh wait, Sasuke did reform. He barely killed anyone, too. How about Pain? Was it fine to forgive him? Well sure it was, after all, he decided to suicide and bring everyone back, because Naruto.
> 
> ...



I agree. A perfect example of someone talking the system whist being a part of it would be Kenshin Himura. It was interesting to watch a former murderer try to live in the world that he help created. He did it for a just cause, but he was still a monster and he wasn't larger than the system. This guy killed so many people that he didn't even value his own existence.

In fact, Kenshin's actions came back to bite him numerous times in the ass. It didn't matter if he was fighting on the side of justice or not. Even then Kenshin and Shinsengumi did not view each other as outright wrong or just. They viewed the opposing parties as men who would fight for their beliefs.


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## OS (Feb 10, 2016)

Someone said that Oda never raised  questions in his story. What?


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## Toph (Feb 10, 2016)

Mikon said:


> So are you trying to say that he never intended Goku to be somewhat of an inspirational character for kids? as it's a shounen where the good guys will always win and hope defeats all evil? I mean, it's quite weird to do the things that you mention now, but from another way, it happens in a very cheesy shounen, what he is even trying to do? Might just write a seinen



Who says Goku can't be inspirational? Goku is inspirational by virtue in the sense that, "If you threaten my family, friends or the Earth, you're going down," he's not inspirational in the virtue of, "I'm here to fight for truth, justice and the American way," like Superman. Goku is also very much a hero, though not in the same sense as Superman in being righteous, but in the Ancient Greek sense of the word, a man with supreme martial ability who shows courage in the face of adversity. You'll notice there's no "of great morality" in my sentence. A hero doesn't have to be perfect, flawless or of great morality to be a hero, you know.



> About the last part of your post, that's quite weird, tbh
> Going be your logic, even the most shallow/dull character can be seen as complex/with some depth that the majority couldn't see



Yes? Not everyone shares the same values, you know. Just because _you_ think some character is dull and one-dimensional, doesn't it mean everyone else does. What kind of logic is that?



> My real opinion about this part? I think that you just read WAY too far into this.
> I don't think that even Toriyama himself thought about Goku in this way, lol



Actually, he did. He spoke about Goku's characterization back in 1997, after Dragon Ball ended.



			
				Akira Toriyama said:
			
		

> There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of “poison” that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.





Then Toriyama reiterates his feelings on Goku’s personality and motivations that he discussed in an interview several years later:



			
				Akira Toriyama said:
			
		

> At any rate, I wanted him to have the sense of being that rare guy who seeks only “to become stronger than before”, so much so that it feels like “there’s no one as pure as this person”. And while he does end up saving everyone as a result of that, he himself at least has a very pure sincerity about “wanting to become stronger”. What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result.


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## Aldric (Feb 10, 2016)

OS said:


> Someone said that Oda never raised  questions in his story. What?



lt's the same old nonsense l've seen on these forums since day one

naruto doesn't really raise any questions, it's the fans who do, kishimoto just endlessly masturbates mass murderers


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## Punished Kiba (Feb 10, 2016)

Aldric said:


> lt's the same old nonsense l've seen on these forums since day one
> 
> naruto doesn't really raise any questions, it's the fans who do, kishimoto just endlessly masturbates mass murderers



^^^This


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## sasykei (Feb 10, 2016)

Tapion said:


> When was this? Post the chapter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chapter 674, page 14. "Let's do it!" Naruto was completely ready to kill people for greater good.


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## Toph (Feb 10, 2016)

sasykei said:


> Chapter 674, page 14. "Let's do it!" Naruto was completely ready to kill people for greater good.



Define _"greater good"_.


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## Megu-Nee (Feb 10, 2016)

Seraphiel said:


> There is really no manga, manhwa or webtoon I read that could keep it's quality consistent for as long as OP did.


detective conan.


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## sasykei (Feb 10, 2016)

And Hajime no Ippo, JoJos bizarre adventure, Grappler Baki... One Piece is Not some god sent only consistent series in the world.



HoroHoro said:


> Define _"greater good"_.



Well Madara was kind of about to conquer the world... It was either lose everything or lose something kind of situation.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 10, 2016)

someone was talking shit about one piece's worldbuilding

one piece is a pretty good example of worldbuilding for shounen manga


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## Lance (Feb 10, 2016)

Story : Oda
Characters : Oda
Art : Kishimoto
Dialogues : Oda takes this barely.
Originality : Oda. Big time.
Supporting Cast : Initially Kishimoto wrote them better, but then ditched them entirely.
Conflict : Hmmm....real head scratcher.
Hype / Expectations : Both are equally bad at living up to it.
Flow of the story : Kishimoto


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## Dellinger (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Like what?  Give me examples?  I'm intrigued to know.



Kubera is shit,don't read it.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 10, 2016)

*Who has the more entertaining fights?*

One Piece is still good but I've always found the fights quite lacklustre and simple. They trade attacks and just keep tanking.  Who ever has plot on their side delivers a final blow and wins. The only interesting One Piece fights to me was Crew Vs Moria and Oz plus Croco vs Luffy Round 1 -.3. I found every fight boring.  I.literally skipped Enies Lobby because of it even though is was supposed to be a good arc according to others
 But with Naruto I've always loved the fights. The dynamics, the tactics,  the endless possibities to what jutsu a character can have etc while One Piece is too marginalised. What do you All think?

Orochimaru fights .... Jiraiya vs Pain ... Sannin fight ... Sasuke vs Killer Bee, Deidara and Itachi etc etc and so many more especially the Madara fights. I just love the whole ninja style of f fighting - stealth, tactics and power.

Please share your opinions with me?


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## Mizura (Feb 10, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Like what?  Give me examples?  I'm intrigued to know.


Apart from examples already given, I don't read shounen mangas that much recently, so including different genres and adding in webcomics (and in no particular order):

7 Seeds (manga, for: character development, group character development): This has the best group character development I've read Anywhere. At first it's hard to read because it starts with the 'loser' group, but things pick up as you start to explore the other groups. All the characters have unique skills that are applied in interesting ways to the new world, but what really shines is how the characters develop and mature as individuals and groups, and the sheer humanity of it is... aww, you have to read it to understand. So many feels. Makes most shounen characters feel like cardboard clowns.
Basara (manga, for: adventure story and worldbuilding that actually explores and uses a variety of themes): The first two volumes of this series is a painful drama fest, but this story explores themes like politics and corruption of course, but also governance methods, trade, irrigation, journalism, art, slavery, plenty of family drama, and different sorts of introspection. In the same way, the support cast comes from all wakes: those fight at the frontlines, those who work in the shadows, those who expose the truth, those who reform or conspire from within, those who lead by example, even farmers, builders and healers. A rich and inspiring odyssey with incredible character growth.
Gunka no Baltzar (manga, for: all aspects of war): From a structural POV, the story is not That complicated I guess, but I really like how it addresses All aspects of war: economics, culture, public opinion, technology, politics and more. Plus the art is so gorgeous.
Drowtales (webcomic, for: worldbuilding, complex interclan politics and scheming): The history, culture and inter-clan dynamics is Shockingly well-developed. The story doesn't seem that special at first, just another fantasy story, but I was surprised by how interesting and how complex it became later on (especially after the timeskip: best timeskip Ever... that I know of. The characters actually matured and grew! Their relationships have evolved! Stuff actually happened!). Some main characters seem like stubborn brats at first, but after the timeskip they really mature, start taking major roles within their respective clans and influence the major inter-clan conflicts. Even the fodders are wonderfully handled.
Erfworld (webcomic, for: the mechanism is so.damn.interesting. The strategies are Glorious!). It's sort of a deconstruction of game mechanisms, but that's really oversimplifying it. The system itself is wholly original and has such colorful class names as Croakamancy, Flower Power and Mathamancy. The way the main character questions and tests everything (and tries whatever he can to break something) is fascinating. At the same time, it explores the morality of what's going on and humanizes the characters within the world. Design-wise, it's this really fun mesh of pop-culture references.
Gunnerkrigg Court (webcomic, for: characters, worldbuilding): This is a really original world that mixes its own brand of fantasy and robotics. The storytelling style is quite interesting, shifting abruptly from the banal to something totally unexpected or vice-versa. It's got this mad coyote-god, elementals, grim reapers, psychic gargantuan lobsters, this lady who has been around since the formation of the planet, sentient robots who have started goddess-worshipping one of the main characters, and lots of other elements that intermingle to create a surreal story. And the characters are <3 . And the panel arts are amazing, often looking normal then boom, throwing you stuff like  and .
Pandora Hearts (manga, for: plot twists): I admit, for about half the series I didn't think much of Pandora Hearts, but once it built up properly, the plot twists started hitting like a ton of bricks, and the characters gain incredible development. Just about all the characters have a crucial role in the story, and by the end of the series, it has some really gorgeous art.
Kubera (manhwa, for: complex plot, characters and worldbuilding): simply put, this is an epic fantasy-mystery told across 10 main characters, close to 100 characters total (each with unique roles in the plot, as nobody is just someone's follower), spread across over half-a-dozen races (including several immortal ones), several hundred years, several generations, several dimensions and several planets. However, much of the story is told in-between the lines, giving you the opportunity to piece things together if you work quite hard at it. It has some definite downsides, but also strengths I haven't found anywhere else.



Seraphiel said:


> There is really no manga, manhwa or webtoon I read that could keep it's quality consistent for as long as OP did.


It's just about the only manga that's that long out there. But to me it's repeating the same tired and bland flavor of Luffy solving stuff with punches over and over. The last 3 arcs were essentially "Bad guys were fooling a bunch of people (because they're total morons), Luffy and Co. show up, Co. beats up the side baddies, Luffy beats up the main buddy, and everybody lives happily ever after in adoration of Luffy. You see the stories I'm listing above? None of them has such repetitive story structures.



OS said:


> Someone said that Oda never raised  questions in his story. What?


It's not that he doesn't raise questions, it's that he doesn't constantly maintain them, so to say. For example, each of the Straw Hats have goals, but they get kept on the backburner for the most part. There's also the mystery of the poneglyphs, but it's only something that's brought up from time to time.

Naruto kept the questions (or rather, sources of tension I'd say) more to the forefront: like what'd happen to Sasuke, what will happen to Naruto and his jinchuuriki status, who is the Akatsuki leader etc. Of course, seen another way, you could accuse Naruto of actively shoving these things down your throat.

Basically, imagine someone got tired of reading both series. Several years later, he comes across an active reader. The Naruto reader may go "So what happened to Sasuke? Who was the Akatsuki leader? Who did Naruto pair up with?" The One Piece reader would pretty much just ask "So what was One Piece in the end?"



White Hawk said:


> Kubera is shit,don't read it.


It's a matter of taste, Kubera is the anti-Shounen that throws every trope and instant-gratification devices you'd expect from a Shounen into the bin. Those expecting traditional shounen elements will walk away totally disappointed. Those who love densely-written plots and mysteries may enjoy it. It's a series that is more enjoyable the more you analyze it and realize how densely planned it is.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 13, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> They're both not very good. This is like the Special Olympics of manga writers. In the end they both lose because both of their shows are retarded, even for a shounen. They're both DBZ's red-headed step-children and have somehow become worse than a show made in the 80's by an author who was known for his toilet humor.
> 
> Compare them to other manga worth a lick and you'll see how lackluster they are as a whole. No one who has watched any decent anime, or read a decent manga, could ever seriously defend these two shows even against one another, because in the end they both lose.



To be fair, the shounen 'trinity' and manga like Fairy Tail and those following that mold is vastly overrated in themselves, and only propped up today by the force of their popularity that started years and years ago, back when they were a bit novel. 

Reaching out of the box of those types of series even in the Shounen genre would wield dividends for quality. A shame masterpieces like 3x3 Eyes and Psyren, as well as Rave..and even good manga like 666 Satan, written by Kishimoto's brother were never given the proper respect they deserved.


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## MvCforumsucks12 (Feb 14, 2016)

lol at OP failing outside of japan

it has over 50 million+ WW sales just like Naruto and is published in 35+ countries just like Naruto

and is the #1 selling manga in France THE BIGGEST MARKET IN THE WEST

yall need to put to rest this whole "OP is not popular in the west" rhetoric

OP is popular in Europe and decent in America

and OP just domestically makes more than Almost the entire Studio Pierrot collection

just the someone saying Naruto is bigger than OP as a franchise should be negged


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## MvCforumsucks12 (Feb 14, 2016)

Veris said:


> This thread can go on to infinity with complaints and suggestions. Oda is the overall better writer, but I'll put something in favor of Kishi here- Oda's arcs can get repetitive. They follow a general formula that typically go:
> 
> 1. Straw hats arrive on an island
> 2. Explore the island to get a feel for the setting
> ...



i disagree

this formula you speak of  has to do with the fact OP is an shounen adventure series that revolves around going to place to place to countries and islands they never been to. Despite Op being an adventure manga its also a battle manga so of course its arcs are going to involve people there to fight.

as for Luffy beating the characters he is the captain and main protagonist it would not make sense if he didnt beat the captain or leader of the oppressors


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## The Runner (Feb 14, 2016)

Oda is clearly the superior writer, he hasn't gone to rock bottom/fanfiction territory like Kishi has.




HoroHoro said:


> Who says Goku can't be inspirational? Goku is inspirational by virtue in the sense that, "If you threaten my family, friends or the Earth, you're going down," he's not inspirational in the virtue of, "I'm here to fight for truth, justice and the American way," like Superman. Goku is also very much a hero, though not in the same sense as Superman in being righteous, but in the Ancient Greek sense of the word, a man with supreme martial ability who shows courage in the face of adversity. You'll notice there's no "of great morality" in my sentence. A hero doesn't have to be perfect, flawless or of great morality to be a hero, you know.



Basically, Goku fights to fight strong guys. That's it. He'd be willing to spare chaotic individuals if it meant having to fight them again to test his meddle (I.E. Vegeta, and Frieza to a lesser degree), but he won't just let people go and wreck his Planet/Nakama (Bills, Frieza, etc)

Basically, Goku is more of an Anti-Hero, rather than a straight up Superhero, like, say, Spider-Man or even Gohan during his Great Saiyaman phase.

That being said, he's still pretty simple as a character. That isn't a bad thing by any means, considering that the most iconic fictional characters of all time are pretty simple (Robin Hood, Mickey Mouse, Santa Clause, Superman, etc)


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## Godly Giraffe - King of the Uverworld (Feb 17, 2016)

Oda by a mile. While Oda's works often contain boring arcs, Kishimoto's writing is downright appalling. Oda has some odd quirks in his storytelling that take away from it imo, but nothing he does can top the shittiness of Naruto's laughable ending.


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## Rica_Patin (Feb 17, 2016)

Is this a fucking joke?


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## Aduro (Feb 17, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Oda is clearly the superior writer, he hasn't gone to rock bottom/fanfiction territory like Kishi has.



Oda is too scared to go anywhere but a straight line past familiar landmarks.


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## MvCforumsucks12 (Feb 18, 2016)

HoroHoro (inactive) said:


> Nah, Kishimoto's worldbuilding sucks, hard. They're all pretty much the same. Same political structure, same "village first" ideals. I think Kuromaku best described the worldbuilding in this blog .



yeah Kishi I wouldnt say suck but not that good or he just never tried to put effort in it

no lie

but I was not no big fan of naruto but i did read it and followed it

the one thing that kept me reading was seeing it end, and seeing the other nations, and other organizations etc in the world of naruto

shame Kishi never expanded on it.


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