# Healthy Itachi vs Tobirama



## JuicyG (Sep 6, 2014)

Who Wins & Why ?

Distance: 45 Meters
Location: Doesnt Matter
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: None
Mindset: IC


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## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

Location does matter.


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## RBL (Sep 6, 2014)

Itachi should win more times than not.

oh edo tensei is not restricted, tobirama then can summon edo itachi and it would be

tobirama and edo itachi vs full healthy prime itachi.

kind of difficult y'know.


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## Ghost (Sep 6, 2014)

Tobirama can't fight Itachi without looking at him. Amaterasu should do it. Or Susano'o wrecks in CQC.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Brandon Lee said:


> Itachi should win more times than not.
> 
> oh edo tensei is not restricted, tobirama then can summon edo itachi and it would be
> 
> ...



wut? 
and how is Tobirama going to use ET without sacrifices or itachi's DNA?
how is he going to summon itachi when's alive in this battle?


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## Ghost (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> wut?
> and how is Tobirama going to use ET without sacrifices or itachi's DNA?
> how is he going to summon itachi when's alive in this battle?



what is joking


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## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

egressmadara said:


> - Snips another MS Uchiha user -



Tobirama might not beat MS Madara, MS Shisui, or MS Obito.  What makes you think he'd beat any MS user? Because he beat Izuna, an unknown, in battle circumstances we also know nothing about?

That said though, these are my two favorite ninja. Tobirama's the only ninja I consider on Itachi's level in intelligence and talent, although Tobirama is more innovative (but also more arrogant.)​


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

How is Tobirama more arrogant exactly? 
Itachi is one of the most arrogant characters in the manga, he even admitted that. 

he believed that he can do everything by his own, and no one can stop him or something...  

and I think Tobirama is also more intelligent as itachi does not have that much feats in term of intelligence anyway. U_U


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## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2014)

Unrestricted Tobirama with prep(Edo Tensei) is noticeably above Itachi in my opinion. Without Edo Tensei I can see fight being very close but still advantageous to Tobirama due to his fighting style countering Itachi's well and vast amount of experience and knowledge in Uchiha-killing. 

Tobirama is one of the few people to whom I grant ability to fight skilled Uchihas while completely avoiding eye-contact. Sensing+KB+Hiraishin+actual experience. That deals with normal genjutsu and Tsukuyomi. 

Not sure about sensing vs Amaterasu thing(still think that Obito's feat isn't applicable to normal sensors due to him being a supreme being at that point) but with both Hiraishin and Kagebunshins combined with in depth knowledge(recognized Kagutsuchi immediately) I can see him dealing with it. 

Susano is trickier but with Itachi being alive and Hiraishin being available Nidaime can simply outlast it or try to teleport it away(with KB possibly). 

Fight would be decided by Itachi's unorthodox genjutsu usage(i.e. crows), his base jutsu(i.e. Exploding Bunshin) and intelligence battle imo. Itachi is exceptional even by Uchiha's standards so he might be able to pull it off here.



Hussain said:


> itachi does not have that much feats in term of intelligence anyway. U_U


Yeah, sure.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> How is Tobirama more arrogant exactly?
> Itachi is one of the most arrogant characters in the manga, he even admitted that.
> 
> he believed that he can do everything by his own, and no one can stop him or something...



Perhaps, but even when believing he could handle any situation alone, Itachi was always intensely cautious and opportunistic, as seen throughout all his encounters. He wastes no time.

Tobirama, on the other hand, looks the Mangekyo dead in the eye and talks smack. There's definitely a level of hubris and risk-taking there that I have simply never seen from Itachi in battle.​


Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> and I think Tobirama is also more intelligent as itachi does not have that much feats in term of intelligence anyway. U_U



I'd give Tobirama the slight edge in intelligence due to impressive inventiveness, but that's more likely simply the difference in age allowing more room for achievement and discovery, not necessarily a difference in raw intellect altogether.

Itachi had invented and discovered plenty in his short life. He performed the surgery making it possible for a bird to use a Mangekyo, quickly discovered ancient artifacts Orochimaru spent decades searching for, created trap techniques that shocked even Obito, created the powerful mass genjutsu Shikaku hyped, etc.​


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Yeah, sure.


if we came to his supposedly great feats.
1- What he did against Nagato -> after spying on them for 10 years, of course he would know. 
2- his trap with the Amatersu, it failed even though it's decent
3- the Koto, which also failed as it was not used against Sasuke

Is there anything else? 




Strategoob said:


> Perhaps, but even when believing he could handle any situation alone, Itachi was always intensely cautious and opportunistic, as seen throughout all his encounters. He wastes no time.
> 
> Tobirama, on the other hand, looks the Mangekyo dead in the eye and talks smack. There's definitely a level of hubris and risk-taking there that I have simply never seen from Itachi in battle.​



- as I stated above, he had knowledge about his foes since he was spying on them for 10 years. Which helped him a lot, here he does not know about Tobirama's power.  

- Tobirama is a sensor. Looking directly at the sharingan does not make the genjutsu activate automatically, itachi will need to actually use it, and since Tobirama is a sensor with great deal of speed, he shouldn't have a problem with that...


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Tobirama negates Genjustu through Kage Bunshin simple as that.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 6, 2014)

I'm not going to get into this long winded debate again but Tobirama has simply been portrayed on a higher level then Itachi
Smarter
Faster
More chakra
Sensor
Experience

FTG + Sensing pretty much negates all of Itachis skills besides Genjutsu. With Tobiramas experience, sensing, clones I do not see him falling for genjutsu

Probably goes like this


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## t0xeus (Sep 6, 2014)

^Pretty much this.

Also that comic .


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## Alex Payne (Sep 6, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama negates Genjustu through Kage Bunshin simple as that.


Yeah. Just like Naruto.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Oh, wait.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Yeah. Just like Naruto.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Yes lets compare naruto in that point of the manga to Tobirama who spent his entire life fighting uchiha


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## CurlyHat (Sep 6, 2014)

Tobirama simply... Counters Itachi, you know? They are pretty much on the same level, but tobirama's skillset is just a total counter in this case. Like, Itachi really can't land a hit on this guy. or rather, a meaningful hit. His GodSuitonz totally counter Itachi's katon. He has sensing, so no way is Itachi touching him with a high level genjutsu like tsukoyomi, and the finger fuck one really isn't even worthy in this thread. Now don't get me wrong, Itachi can probably take out people Tobirama can't, but this match up is just horrible for him. Tobirama spent all of his life fighting Uchihas like Madara and Izuna, so he has experience against the Sharingan and the Mangekyo sharingan. He takes this high-diff.


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## Ashi (Sep 6, 2014)

Tobirama wins w/ FTG Slash

and if he has a Reanimation he can use the chain explosions


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## kingcools (Sep 6, 2014)

uchihaslayer prevails once more. Itachi is buttraped.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2014)

Manga knowledge suggests that Tobirama doesn't know shit about Itachi.
So yes, he gets Tsukiyomi GG'd. As there is no evidence that Tobirama faced a Tsukiyomi user in the past.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Is there any evidence that itachi fought a FTG user and he won't get speedblitze?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Is there any evidence that itachi fought a FTG user and he won't get speedblitze?



I am guessing Itachi would know about Hirashin, as he knew about Minato and that he was Naruto's dad. That'd require him to have at least some exclusive knowledge about Minato.

If he doesn't, then yes there is a chance that he'll get speed blitzed.

But I am guessing even with no knowledge he can circumvent around that with either Karasubunshins or initial genjutsu trickery.


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## kingcools (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manga knowledge suggests that Tobirama doesn't know shit about Itachi.
> So yes, he gets Tsukiyomi GG'd. As there is no evidence that Tobirama faced a Tsukiyomi user in the past.



and do you know why there is no evidence? Because tobimara killed them all. 
Every. Single. One.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am guessing Itachi would know about Hirashin, as he knew about Minato and that he was Naruto's dad. That'd require him to have at least some exclusive knowledge about Minato.
> 
> If he doesn't, then yes there is a chance that he'll get speed blitzed.
> 
> But I am guessing even with no knowledge he can circumvent around that with either Karasubunshins or initial genjutsu trickery.




fair enough.


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## StickaStick (Sep 6, 2014)

The most likley outcome I could see is Itachi falling to a fatal Hiraishin strike.

Tsukuyomi GG seems unlikely when Tobirama is well-accustomed to fighting Uchihas and furthermore is an adept sensor, so fighting his his eyes closed wouldn't be an issue. Ama GG also seems very unlikely given that Tobirama has seen Kagutsuchi before (which means he's seen Ama) so he'll naturally be on the guard against such an attack, made easier by again the fact that he is an adept senor. That would leave Totsuka left, but I doubt it could actually seal him seeing as he is a Hiraishin user making a quick escape easy. Worse yet for Itachi is the fact that using any of these high-powered MS jutsu while be taxing for him; while Tobirama has those senju chakra reserves. To top it off Tobirama's Suitons hard-counter Itachi's Katons, ultimately leaving him very limited in terms of actual win-conditions.


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## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

The Format said:


> Tsukuyomi GG seems unlikely when Tobirama is well-accustomed to fighting Uchihas


So? The general plan for Uchiha is one on one you better run. Tobirama was used to fighting Uchiha's with his clan. He may be > Izuna but he is the weakest MS holder, so have nothing to go by that. Itachi also has more ways than most Uchiha to use genjutsu which Tobirama doesn't know about.



> and furthermore is an adept sensor, so fighting his his eyes closed wouldn't be an issue.


You can't just extrapolate Kabuto's feats to every damn sensor. Maybe for a little bit like SM Naruto, or how Kakashi did in the mist vs Yamanaka sensing, but Kabuto literally had several methods of sensing, and even then things assimple as a clone feint were working on him.



> Ama GG also seems very unlikely given that Tobirama has seen Kagutsuchi before (which means he's seen Ama) so he'll naturally be on the guard against such an attack, made easier by again the fact that he is an adept senor.


He has better odds than most, but he is no where near immune to it. Itachi could also use it like Sasuke did for defense, and use it to kill any prepped edo's.



> That would leave Totsuka left, but I doubt it could actually seal him seeing as he is a Hiraishin user making a quick escape easy.


Itachi can get his V4 up faster than Kirin. Itachi's totsuka fast was so fast that Orochimaru didn't recognize it coming at him until it already pierced his chest. Totsuka Stab is by no means slow, and Itachi doesn't need to be stationary to summon Susano.

Given Itacih's clone/genjutsu game, only makes it worse for Tobirama as he could be under a genjutsu and not even know it like Danzo was, and get stabbed.



> Worse yet for Itachi is the fact that using any of these high-powered MS jutsu while be taxing for him; while Tobirama has those senju chakra reserves.


He is healthy here so he will be much better off than he was vs Hebi Sauce. He also won't be wasting MS like he was, and will be using it similar to how he did as an Edo. So Itachi will be healthy enough to plan out his kill strategy, whether he can execute it or not before getting killed is the question. 

A fight like this would be very close, since both are so damn smart. but this knowledge favors Itachi much more.


> To top it off Tobirama's suitons hard-counter Itachi's Katon, ultimately leaving him very limited in terms of actual win-conditions.


Katons can still be used for LOS blocking, and for Katon Flow. Itachi also has Suitons to counter Tobirama's own.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2014)

kingcools said:


> and do you know why there is no evidence? Because tobimara killed them all.
> Every. Single. One.



The thing is, Itachi is the only Tsukiyomi user we've seen so far. So again, a seasoned veteran like Tobirama may feel confident against sharingan genjutsu, but Tsukiyomi is a different deal. 
Without exclusive knowledge, Tsukiyomi is a game ender for most people.


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## HiroshiSenju (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, Itachi is the only Tsukiyomi user we've seen so far. So again, a seasoned veteran like Tobirama may feel confident against sharingan genjutsu, but Tsukiyomi is a different deal.
> Without exclusive knowledge, Tsukiyomi is a game ender for most people.



Obviously, Madara must have known Tsukuyomi as well to be able to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

I find it doubtful that Tobirama would know about only two of the three cardinal Mangekyo Sharingan techniques.


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## Jagger (Sep 6, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Yes lets compare naruto in that point of the manga to Tobirama who spent his entire life fighting uchiha


This is the problem. Tobirama is not immune to Genjutsu, he can still get caught in a second if he dares to look at one of Itachi's fingers or his eyes. 

Though, I'll admit his fighting style certainly is a great advantage given he can jump around not staying in one area where he can get attacked. However, he needs to get close to Itachi to land a fatal blow. Otherwise, it's kind of futile.


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## StickaStick (Sep 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, Itachi is the only Tsukiyomi user we've seen so far. *So again, a seasoned veteran like Tobirama may feel confident against sharingan genjutsu, but Tsukiyomi is a different deal.*
> Without exclusive knowledge, Tsukiyomi is a game ender for most people.


So basically we're assuming (or perhaps hoping ) Tobirama goes retardo-mode.



Dr. White said:


> So? The general plan for Uchiha is one on one you better run.


My man, did you really just invoke that Granny Chiyo quote from the beginning of the Post-Time Skip as part of your argument? 



> Tobirama was used to fighting Uchiha's with his clan. *He may be > Izuna but he is the weakest MS holder*,


Irrelevant, but I just want to point out that you nothing to back this up; and if Izuna was able to stalemate Alive-Tobirama in many encounters previous to their final one (showing him an almost equal adversary) then he was very strong indeed and based on that alone an argument could be made he is around Itachi's general tier level.



> so have nothing to go by that. Itachi also has more ways than most Uchiha to use genjutsu which Tobirama doesn't know about.


If you're about to tell me finger genjutsu would be anything other than useless in this fight then I'll concede the argument to you now simply to avoid the mental anguish of having to argue such a ridiculous point 



> You can't just extrapolate Kabuto's feats to every damn sensor. Maybe for a little bit like SM Naruto, or how Kakashi did in the mist vs Yamanaka sensing, but Kabuto literally had several methods of sensing, and even then things assimple as a clone feint were working on him.


Where exactly are getting the impression that I need to extrapolate Kaguto's sensing feats to Tobirama in order to make my point? 



> He has better odds than most, but he is no where near immune to it. Itachi could also use it like Sasuke did for defense, and use it to kill any prepped edo's.


I never said nor implied he was immune to it. And obviously it would be helpful against fodder Edos, but given the drain that an Ama usage represents I think Itachi could do better than resorting to it in order to take care of fodder Edos. 



> Itachi can get his V4 up faster than Kirin. Itachi's totsuka fast was so fast that Orochimaru didn't recognize it coming at him until it already pierced his chest. Totsuka Stab is by no means slow, and Itachi doesn't need to be stationary to summon Susano.


Is it Hiraishin fast? No? Okay then.



> Given Itacih's clone/genjutsu game, only makes it worse for Tobirama as he could be under a genjutsu and not even know it like Danzo was, and get stabbed.


As stated, I don't think he'll fall to any of Itachi's genjutsu; at least not with any kind of respectable probability.



> He is healthy here so he will be much better off than he was vs Hebi Sauce. He also won't be wasting MS like he was, and will be using it similar to how he did as an Edo. So Itachi will be healthy enough to plan out his kill strategy, whether he can execute it or not before getting killed is the question.


Honestly, I would contest the increase in chakra and stamina an Alive-Itachi would receive over his "Sick" counterpart that you seem to be implying (specifically with the Edo reference), but I'd rather not go down on that path. I'll just say regardless his reserves still pale in comparison to Tobrirama's.



> Katons can still be used for LOS blocking, and for Katon Flow. Itachi also has Suitons to counter Tobirama's own.


I never disputed any of this.



> A fight like this would be very close, since both are so damn smart. but this knowledge favors Itachi much more.


I agree. I view each as more-or-less equal in terms of general ranking. 

Don't get me wrong, I see Tobirama as a very-solid counter to Itachi putting the latter at an inherent disadvantage, but execution would still be key and ultimately it would end up being a close contest.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Yeah. Just like Naruto.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



LOL. Don't compare Naruto to prolly the single most intelligent character in the manga that slaughters Uchiha on a daily basis. The difference in skill, intelligence, and just straight up experience is ridiculous.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

If I remember correctly Narudo managed to figure out Obito's weakness before Tobirama.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> If I remember correctly Narudo managed to figure out Obito's weakness before Tobirama.



I don't recall that being novice Pre FRS Naruto. Current Naruto is much more tactical. Also Tobirama and Naruto figured it out the same time despite Naruto being a sage and all. That also has little to do with anything I said.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

it was not at the same time, Naruto did before him, and I don't what does being a sage have to do with that
sense Narudo never fought a Juubi's host before that.

but either way, Naruto tricked Kakuzu as well, who's MUCH more experienced than Tobirama, did he not?


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## Dr. White (Sep 6, 2014)

The Format said:


> My man, did you really just invoke that Granny Chiyo quote from the beginning of the Post-Time Skip as part of your argument?


Granny Chiyo is a low- mid Kage level fighter with more experience than most people. So your ttempt to discredit her and her knowledge, is as disingenious as taking away from Minato's Run on sight hype, because it was against "Iwa Fodder". 




> Irrelevant, but I just want to point out that you nothing to back this up;


Izuna has literally no feats outside of having an MS on screen. Which means all we can assume he can do is Katon, all 3 tomoe functions, and Ms genjutsu. That is literally it. We don't know how good with genjutsu he is, and have no named attacks for him. All we have is he was roughly equal to MS Madara which we have no way to quanitfy his power. Even Shisui has Kotoamatsuki making him stronger by default. 



> and if Izuna was able to stalemate Alive-Tobirama in many encounters previous to their final one (showing him an almost equal adversary) then he was very strong indeed and based on that alone an argument could be made he is around Itachi's general tier level.


How strong was Tobirama at that point in time? What were the conditions of battle? We know they had their families with them. I'll give you Izuna was portrayed to be on Tobirama's general level but his hype alone doesn't pit him on the level of Itachi who was a genius even among sharingan users.




> If you're about to tell me finger genjutsu would be anything other than useless in this fight then I'll concede the argument to you now simply to avoid the mental anguish of having to argue such a ridiculous point


So you have no evidence to counter finger genjutsu working so you just dismiss it? Sounds legit. Also you are forgtting about the ever elusive crow genjutsu, and his hype of long range control.




> Where exactly are getting the impression that I need to extrapolate Kaguto's sensing feats to Tobirama in order to make my point?


Because Kabuto is the only person able to counter sharingan with their eyes closed. He was only able to do so with his scalera, full knowledge of how strong Itachi's genjutsu was, and multiple ways of sensing. So simply saying "Well Tobirama's a sensor therefore he can fight blindly without a problem" is not logical. 




> I never said nor implied he was immune to it. And obviously it would be helpful against fodder Edos, but given the drain that an Ama usage represents I think Itachi could do better than resorting to it in order to take care of fodder Edos.


Nothing suggest smaller Amaterasu's would cost as much as the behemoth versions sick Itachi was flaunting around. 




> Is it Hiraishin fast? No? Okay then.


Hirashin is instantaneous not tobirama's reactions. If he is pre occupied in genjutsu or commits to a clone Itachi can catch him off guard. 

Madara was able to stab Tobirama multiple times after lolreacting to his Hirashingiri.




> As stated, I don't think he'll fall to any of Itachi's genjutsu; at least not with any kind of respectable probability.


Lol ok. All I am saying is that when Psuedo Rikudo Sages have to resort to blinding themselves so they don't fall victim to your genjutsu (with full knowledge obviously), you're doing something right.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> it was not at the same time, Naruto did before him, and I don't what does being a sage have to do with that
> sense Narudo never fought a Juubi's host before that.
> 
> but either way, Naruto tricked Kakuzu as well, who's MUCH more experienced than Tobirama, did he not?



It was the same time. They aren't going to dedicate an entire panel to then both figuring it out, rather show them both figuring it out simultaneously: Highest rank besides Hokage
If anything Minato is the dumb one there.

Naruto should recognize sage ability and know the differences between those techniques and basic techniques considering he's a sage and Tobirama isn't at all.....

I'm not addressing the second point. Not wasting my time.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2014)

1- the manga goes from the right, then the upper left panel, then the one below it, then to Tobirama. U_U
it's as obvious as it can get...

2- Irrelevant, Hashirama who's Tobirama's brother is a sage, so obviously Tobirama knows about all of that stuff..


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- the manga goes from the right, then the upper left panel, then the one below it, then to Tobirama. U_U
> it's as obvious as it can get...
> 
> 2- Irrelevant, Hashirama who's Tobirama's brother is a sage, so obviously Tobirama knows about all of that stuff..



I know exactly how to read a manga... But they aren't going to put them both realizing the sage technique at the same time in ONE single panel. They are going to put one person realizing it , and then next in the very next panel . But that's just my opinion. To each their own.

But at the end of the day I still don't see how this is relevant at all . I'm not talking about Juubito arc Naruto or even Kakuzu arc Naruto, I'm talking about beginning of PTS Naruto with very limited Genjustu knowledge and experience. Naruto is also unpredictable. He can be very intelligent like in the scan I posted or he can not as bright at times: Highest rank besides Hokage


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## StickaStick (Sep 6, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Granny Chiyo is a low- mid Kage level fighter with more experience than most people. So your ttempt to discredit her and her knowledge, is as disingenious as taking away from Minato's Run on sight hype, because it was against "Iwa Fodder".


Please notice how I singled out one statement she made; I never attempted to discredit her knowledge and wisdom on a broad level or any of that which you purport me to. With that said, let's try this again. Here is what you said:

_So? The general plan for Uchiha is one on one you better run.
_
This was part of your argument. I hope after thinking it over you can see how ridiculous this is as a basis of argument.



> Izuna has literally no feats outside of having an MS on screen. Which means all we can assume he can do is Katon, all 3 tomoe functions, and Ms genjutsu. That is literally it. We don't know how good with genjutsu he is, and have no named attacks for him. All we have is he was roughly equal to MS Madara which we have no way to quanitfy his power.


Obviously he lacks the feats. The sole basis on my comparison of him to Itachi is based on how he was portrayed against Tobirama. If you think that's horseshit cool, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.



> Even Shisui has Kotoamatsuki making him stronger by default.


Well, if you asked me to hypothesize where he might rank among the Uchiha given what we do know about him I would have him above Itachi as well, so. Koto and its haxxness obviously being a key reason why.



> How strong was Tobirama at that point in time? What were the conditions of battle? We know they had their families with them.


As far as I can remember Izuna was never portrayed as needing assistance against Tobirama and vice versa. In fact, theirs battles were clearly a mirror of their older brothers' and they were never implied as using assistance against the other.



> I'll give you Izuna was portrayed to be on Tobirama's general level but his hype alone doesn't pit him on the level of Itachi who was a genius even among sharingan users.


And Tobirama was a genius among Senju, what's your point? 



> So you have no evidence to counter finger genjutsu working so you just dismiss it?


So you think there is a universe out there where Tobirama falls to finger genjutsu. Noted.



> Also you are forgtting about the ever elusive crow genjutsu, and his hype of long range control.


Nope, not forgetting.



> Because Kabuto is the only person able to counter sharingan with their eyes closed. He was only able to do so with his scalera, full knowledge of how strong Itachi's genjutsu was, and multiple ways of sensing. So simply saying "Well Tobirama's a sensor therefore he can fight blindly without a problem" *is not logical*.


Here's how Tobirama does it:

Closes his eyes (or fuck, focuses on Itachi's feet)
Uses his more than adequate level of sensing ability in order to make the task easier.

Unless you're disputing if he can do either of these, I don't see exactly what you're contesting here.



> Nothing suggest smaller Amaterasu's would cost as much as the behemoth versions sick Itachi was flaunting around.


Sure, but this would increase the chances Ama gets trolled by some shit like the targets taking their closthes off.



> Hirashin is instantaneous not tobirama's reactions.


Not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this. If you think Tobirama's reactions are going to be a factor then say so (ideally whilst providing some basis for this standing) so we can actually discuss this point. Otherwise you're telling me things I already know.



> If he is pre occupied in genjutsu or commits to a clone Itachi can catch him off guard.


This is like saying if Itachi commits to a clone Tobirama can catch him off-guard. 



> Madara was able to stab Tobirama multiple times after lolreacting to his Hirashingiri.


That was after Tobirama had committed an attack. We're talking about Tobirama using FTG in order to escape one.

and lol @ at comparing Sage-Mads' reactions to Itachi's.



> Lol ok. All I am saying is that when Psuedo Rikudo Sages have to resort to blinding themselves so they don't fall victim to your genjutsu (with full knowledge obviously), you're doing something right.


Sure. But then again I never disputed that Itachi's genjutsu was anything other than a significant threat.


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## crisler (Sep 7, 2014)

I know anime feat doesn't really count, but in the anime tobirama was paralyzed for a second when izuna cast genjutsu through sharingan. Then Izuna kicked tobirama, and tobirama used hiraishin to kill Izuna.

But if this happens with Itachi, Tobirama would already be dead, specifically because tsukuyomi is too dangerous.

According to what Madara said, Tobirama was special in tricking his foes into believing they had won, and killed them when they let their guards down. If tobirama decides to use the same tactic, "Let's get caught by genjutsu and make them believe they won. I can cancel the genjutsu quickly and kill with hiraishin", then unfortunately it's not gonna work with itachi. that's why itachis' a dangerous foe against confident shinobis like tobirama.

I don't think susanoo or amaterasu is going to be a major threat. I think tsukuyomi is the key. tobiramas' knowledge against uchiha is going to lead to his confidence and eventually to lowering his guards. We've seen him do this before: he believed what he knew was enough and tried to go against orochimaru. What happened? he was humiliated. 

The thing is, tobirama is an excellent shinobi and also experienced, and this is why he's somewhat careless against foes he doesn't believe are able to match his powers. He knows practically nothing about itachi, except he uses MS. Itachi is young. Tobirama doesn't like uchihas. These are definitely going to affect tobirama and make him believe he has the upper hand from the start.


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## Jagger (Sep 7, 2014)

Hussain said:


> If I remember correctly Narudo managed to figure out Obito's weakness before Tobirama.


Both noticed it at the same time.

It's just Naruto is the only one that can prove whether said theory was correct or not.


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## Veracity (Sep 7, 2014)

Genjustu ? Tobirama sits down in a and corner and used sensory abilities and Kage Bunshin, thus making the chance of getting caught in Genjustu 0%.

Amaterasu ? Canonically can be teleported off the user with FTG, meaning the moment Tobirama gets hit all he has to do is warp another place.

Long ranged attacks? Heavily implied that Tobirama Sution> Itachis Katon and Sution. He also has a much larger chakra storage and a faster flicker.

Sussano ? Gets warped off at contact, and negated via a clone backing up Tobirama and bisecting Itachi with Juubito blitzing handspeed the moment Sussano is warped away. Or could be completely negated if Tobirama tags Itachis real body. 

Experience, Tactics, and knowledge are all debatable but most would agree that Tobirama is the victor in those areas also .

So yeah I'm ready to debate against the first Itachi lover that quotes me.


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## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2014)

The Format said:


> Please notice how I singled out one statement she made; I never attempted to discredit her knowledge and wisdom on a broad level or any of that which you purport me to. With that said, let's try this again. Here is what you said:


-You are trying to discredit her telling others things that actually went down. It was a universal rule that she learned which Itachi later reiderates.




> This was part of your argument. I hope after thinking it over you can see how ridiculous this is as a basis of argument.


The point of me bringing that up is to show the lethality of facing a sharingan one on one which seems to threatens people universally. Seeing as there weren't any Uchiha in the sand.




> Obviously he lacks the feats. The sole basis on my comparison of him to Itachi is based on how he was portrayed against Tobirama. If you think that's horseshit cool, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.


So all Ms users are now exchangable? There is nothing to suggest Izuna's genjutsu was as potent, or that he used it as much as Itachi. So beating him doesn't give him the ability to just sift through Itachi and his genjutsu threat.




> As far as I can remember Izuna was never portrayed as needing assistance against Tobirama and vice versa. In fact, theirs battles were clearly a mirror of their older brothers' and they were never implied as using assistance against the other.


My point is we don't know the circumstances and got one panel. 



> And Tobirama was a genius among Senju, what's your point?


That you can't compare Izuna to Itachi in the way you are trying to.




> So you think there is a universe out there where Tobirama falls to finger genjutsu. Noted.


So you still have no argument? Tobirama has knowledge on it? Is immune to genjutsu? You just don't feel like facing the truth?


Here's how Tobirama does it:



> Closes his eyes (or fuck, focuses on Itachi's feet)
> Uses his more than adequate level of sensing ability in order to make the task easier.


Sensing is used in combination with seeing. Tobirama has no feats to suggest he could fight solely off of sensing and still be nearly as efficient as he would with both his vision and sensing. 

Gai's method doesn't account for finger genjutsu, ranged genjutsu, or crow genjutsu. Nor does it stop one from forcing eye contact. On top of this as Asuma and Kurenai stated unless specifically trained in tracking an opponents through his foot movement, it would put the person at risk trying to switch up so suddenly.




> Sure, but this would increase the chances Ama gets trolled by some shit like the targets taking their closthes off.


Madara is the only person to do so and he had chakra absorption. Sm Madara was also demonstratively on a different level.

There is also no evidence to support your argument that using smaller Ama would allow for one to escape it any easier. You literally just made that up.



> Not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this. If you think Tobirama's reactions are going to be a factor then say so (ideally whilst providing some basis for this standing) so we can actually discuss this point. Otherwise you're telling me things I already know.


You claimed that since Totuska isn't Hirashin speed that it won't likely hit him and I told you why that argument is flawed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2014)

HiroshiSenju said:


> Obviously, Madara must have known Tsukuyomi as well to be able to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi.


It seemed to me that Eternal Tsukiyomi is a "3rd eye" technique, which has nothing to do with regular Tsukiyomi. 



> I find it doubtful that Tobirama would know about only two of the three cardinal Mangekyo Sharingan techniques.



Tobirama confirmed that he has seen black flame manipulation before(kagutschi) and he has seen Susano'o through Madara. 



The Format said:


> So basically we're assuming (or perhaps hoping ) Tobirama goes retardo-mode.



No, we are just assuming he isn't prepared for whats coming @ him. Which is the logical assumption here, as Itachi is the only Tsukiyomi user we've seen so far and Tobirama has no knowledge on him.


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## Veo (Sep 7, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I'm not going to get into this long winded debate again but Tobirama has simply been portrayed on a higher level then Itachi
> Smarter
> Faster
> More chakra
> ...



I agree, this is accurate


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## StickaStick (Sep 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -You are trying to discredit her telling others things that actually went down. *It was a universal rule that she learned which Itachi later reiderates*


That's just makes both of them wrong. Again, why are reiterating this when it's obviously false?



> The point of me bringing that up is to show the lethality of facing a sharingan one on one which seems to threatens people universally. Seeing as there weren't any Uchiha in the sand.


Frankly Chiyo isn't Tobirama and is no where near his power level so what she's thinks is pretty irrelevant.  



> So all Ms users are now exchangable? There is nothing to suggest Izuna's genjutsu was as potent, or that he used it as much as Itachi. So beating him doesn't give him the ability to just sift through Itachi and his genjutsu threat.


You're overreacting on this. You claimed Izuna to be the weakest MS user despite: 1) Having no proof one way or the other, and 2) in spite of the fact that he was shown to be on the same general level as Tobirama who if isn't outright stronger than Itachi, is certainly right as his level at worst. Taking this into consideration one could say Izuna would also be around Itachi's general level.

I never claimed because Tobirama could defeat Izuna that that would somehow imply he could defeat Itachi as obviously the two are different entities even if there share some general similarities. No, I've already provided why Tobirama more-likely-than-not beats Itachi; I don't need to use Izuna as a proxy.  



> That you can't compare Izuna to Itachi in the way you are trying to.


It seems to me like you've created some comparison in your head that I never quite made.



> So you still have no argument? Tobirama has knowledge on it? Is immune to genjutsu? You just don't feel like facing the truth?


No, I simply don't take seriously a genjutsu technique who's only feat is trapping Beginning of PTII Naruto. The fact that he didn't bother to use it on Kakashi instead should tell you all you need to know.  



> Sensing is used in combination with seeing. Tobirama has no feats to suggest he could fight solely off of sensing and still be nearly as efficient as he would with both his vision and sensing.


There is literally nothing to suggest Tobirama can't close his eyes and using his sensing ability to fight Itachi that way. And Tobirama doens't need to keep his eyes closed the entire time, as on the same token Itachi won't be attempting to make eye-contact the entire time. Of course, Tobirama would need to pick-and-choose his spots carefully.



> Madara is the only person to do so and he had chakra absorption. Sm Madara was also demonstratively on a different level.


Hate to break it to you, but one does not need to be Sage-Mads' tier in order to remove an article of clothing.



> There is also no evidence to support your argument that using smaller Ama would allow for one to escape it any easier. You literally just made that up.


Once common sense is applied everything becomes much clearer. It would tell you that conjuring a smaller Ama flame (which btw there is no canon proof it can be done as far as I'm aware, as the base amount that can be used may very well be set, but we'll ignore that now for sake of argument) would increase the difficulty of targeting a weak spot (e.g., the face) as now the flames cover less area and provide more opportunity for being strategically blocked.



> You claimed that since Totuska isn't Hirashin speed that it won't likely hit him and I told you why that argument is flawed.


Hirashin gives him the best avenue available in terms of speed of avoiding being struck by the sword. Could he still get hit? Sure. Is it likely? No. That's what it ultimately comes down to here: probability. Honestly a more likely scenario is Itachi gets Hiraishingiri GG'd before Itachi even considers using Susanoo as he's want to do after having analyzed and felt-out his opponent first.


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## KeyofMiracles (Sep 7, 2014)

-Bunshin prevent Itachi from landing Genjutsu on the real Tobirama, that and speed.

-Hiraishin prevents him ever landing a hit on Tobirama, so things like Susanoo (offensively) and Amaterasu are rendered usless.

This ends with Tobirama touching Susanoo and porting Itachi out of it only for a clone to kill him with Hiraishingiri.


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## Blaze Release (Sep 7, 2014)

This can go either way.
The problem i have with those arguing Tobirama is that their arguments doesn't make much sense.

Example counters to genjutsu being bunshins/sensing. Yes these are ways to counter to genjutsu, but you see its more complicated in a battle scenario than a member things to claims bunshin/sensory > genjutsu, and that is that.

For a start i usually see people when arguing agains't itachi's genjutsu prowess claim bunshin and all is well, ignoring the IC status. To date, the only person to have used a bunshin to negate genjutsu has been kakashi. One of the best strategist/ninjutsu user and bunshin user in the series. That was kakashi’s way of negating itachi’s genjutsu. Not many characters have taught of such strategy, but also it is incredible hard to execute to the same standard as kakashi, but also fool itachi twice. He will not fall for the bunshin trick again, id like to think itachi has been portrayed as somebody who doesn’t fall for the same trick twice, especially when a second later he bisected in detail what just happened. 

Characters such as Jiraiya, IC genjutsu counter was disrupting your own chakra flow and if that fails have your partner disrupt your chakra flow, the latter method was the recognised counter for sharingan genjutsu that was used agains’t sharingan genjutsu. Onoki and others also mentioned not looking into the users eyes.

What I am trying to say is that, people trying their best to counter itachi’s genjutsu bringing in clones, when the OP has stated IC are wrong from the start, because we have examples of how certain characters counter genjutsu. Trying to apply kakashi’s method is no different than claiming other ninja’s will use Gai’s method, when they cannot as it is incredible difficult as stated in the manga, something that only Gai can successfully do.

The whole bunshin strategy also has down side which is chakra. You cannot keep splitting your chakra in half, just to counter a portion of a ninja’s fighting style (yes itachi isn't just genjutsu) and it is even implied in the manga that the reason kakashi relied on this strategy is because he had back up, knowing full well that in a 1 vs 1 situation, he cannot rely on kage bunshin’s like that due to his own chakra trouble.

As for sensory, we know that it isn’t passive. Ones genjutsu has been initiated it is up to a sensor to spot any details that may make them think they are in an illusion, then proceed to clarify this by sensing, then breaking the illusion. However if a sensor doesn’t spot any discrepancies or rather the illusionist creates the perfect picture, then it will not even dawn on a sensor to proceed to sense an get a better a idea. Basically sensing in itself isn’t exactly 100% genjutsu counter. Far from it actually.

Anyway this can go either way. I would have liked to have seen how the cloud brothers left him on a brink of death and later the 20 kumo hunter nin’s killed him to get a better picture and to silence those who claim itachi cannot get a hit on him because of hiraishin. Clearly getting hits enough to be left on the brink of death and later killed, should indicate that he can be hit.


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## JuicyG (Sep 7, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> This can go either way.
> The problem i have with those arguing Tobirama is that their arguments doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Example counters to genjutsu being bunshins/sensing. Yes these are ways to counter to genjutsu, but you see its more complicated in a battle scenario than a member things to claims bunshin/sensory > genjutsu, and that is that.
> ...






Great post.

Let me remind you who the opponent is again, Tobirama. He isnt just _some_ sensor, or just _some_ shinobi, of course. The same rules that may apply to many others when fighting Itachi would not so much apply to the 2nd Hokage.

With Tobirama's intell levels at or above Itachis, its not likely that we'll get a genjutsu GG.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 7, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> This can go either way.
> The problem i have with those arguing Tobirama is that their arguments doesn't make much sense.
> 
> Example counters to genjutsu being bunshins/sensing. Yes these are ways to counter to genjutsu, but you see its more complicated in a battle scenario than a member things to claims bunshin/sensory > genjutsu, and that is that.
> ...



1. Are we not talking about the creator kage bunshin? The man with equal or greater intelligence than Kakashi?
2. How is Itachi not going to fall for a kage bunshin feint? Can he tell them apart?



Ablaze said:


> Characters such as Jiraiya, IC genjutsu counter was disrupting your own chakra flow and if that fails have your partner disrupt your chakra flow, the latter method was the recognised counter for sharingan genjutsu that was used agains’t sharingan genjutsu. Onoki and others also mentioned not looking into the users eyes.
> 
> What I am trying to say is that, people trying their best to counter itachi’s genjutsu bringing in clones, when the OP has stated IC are wrong from the start, because we have examples of how certain characters counter genjutsu. Trying to apply kakashi’s method is no different than claiming other ninja’s will use Gai’s method, when they cannot as it is incredible difficult as stated in the manga, something that only Gai can successfully do.
> 
> The whole bunshin strategy also has down side which is chakra. You cannot keep splitting your chakra in half, just to counter a portion of a ninja’s fighting style (yes itachi isn't just genjutsu) and it is even implied in the manga that the reason kakashi relied on this strategy is because he had back up, knowing full well that in a 1 vs 1 situation, he cannot rely on kage bunshin’s like that due to his own chakra trouble.



It goes without saying that Tobirama created kage bunshin to feint people. Madara said his amo was to make his opponents think they own and then attack them when they let their guard down. You know, there is no better way to do that than with kage bunshin. That is what Kakashi does. Now, this dude created the jutsu



Ablaze said:


> As for sensory, we know that it isn’t passive. Ones genjutsu has been initiated it is up to a sensor to spot any details that may make them think they are in an illusion, then proceed to clarify this by sensing, then breaking the illusion. However if a sensor doesn’t spot any discrepancies or rather the illusionist creates the perfect picture, then it will not even dawn on a sensor to proceed to sense an get a better a idea. Basically sensing in itself isn’t exactly 100% genjutsu counter. Far from it actually.



Moot point if sensor knows to be wary of the sharingan



Ablaze said:


> Anyway this can go either way. I would have liked to have seen how the cloud brothers left him on a brink of death and later the 20 kumo hunter nin’s killed him to get a better picture and to silence those who claim itachi cannot get a hit on him because of hiraishin. Clearly getting hits enough to be left on the brink of death and later killed, should indicate that he can be hit.



1. It can go either way if he does not have edo zombies. With edo zombies, Itachi has no chance 
2. You make it sound like it was two separate events when it is clear it was one event. Kin and Gin did not know that Tobirama was dead (they thought he summoned them). This shows that they died shortly after that battle, which would make it impossible for Kin to be leading another team
3. Also, fighting 20 people is totally different from fighting one person


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## Blaze Release (Sep 7, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Are we not talking about the creator kage bunshin? The man with equal or greater intelligence than Kakashi?



So. We do not know whether he is as good as kakashi when it comes to bunshin feints or strategy regardless of whether he created the technique.
Also strategy and overall intelligence are two different things. Its rather clear, or should be clear by now that when it comes to strategy the only people above kakashi is shikaku and shikamaru



Senjuclan said:


> 2. How is Itachi not going to fall for a kage bunshin feint? Can he tell them apart?



Anybody can fall for bunshin feints, but you see itachi isn't going to fall for a similar strategy again. he should be more aware that bunshins is a possible way of negating genjutsu than ever. Also you are forgetting something. if a bunshin user creates a bunshin infront of itachi, no shit itachi will note this and take precautions. Kakashi went further than just creating a bunshin, he hid out of sight completely. Create a bunshin in front of itachi and he isn't stupid enough to just willy nilly use genjutsu. No shit there is more than one Tobirama.

If it comes down to it, karasu bunshin's and kage bunshins both have feats of using genjutsu, so for every kage bunshin tobirama uses to try and negate genjutsu, itachi can quiet simple create karasu bunshin to increase the propability of genjutsu initiation



Senjuclan said:


> It goes without saying that Tobirama created kage bunshin to feint people. Madara said his amo was to make his opponents think they own and then attack them when they let their guard down. You know, there is no better way to do that than with kage bunshin. That is what Kakashi does. Now, this dude created the jutsu


Well, Bunshin’s in general not just kage bunshin’s are used to fool/catch an opponent off guard. Only difference in this scenario is that, its itachi. Never underestimates an opponent, let alone a hokage. To top it off, has already been tricked by not just a bunshin feint like you say, but something far more impressive than just a bunshin feint. Also remind you that, if Itachi has read up on the village and its beginnings, along with the fact that he is also a kage bunshin user, he may just know who created the jutsu and would be wary of bunshin’s.




Senjuclan said:


> Moot point if sensor knows to be wary of the sharingan


True Tobirama will be on his guard from the very beginning and would most likely have his sensing skills activated, but then again, Shee didn’t.




Senjuclan said:


> 1.	It can go either way if he does not have edo zombies. With edo zombies, Itachi has no chance


Putting prep to one side, because we know who he can summon to significantly increase his chances and if I remember correctly his version wasn’t even that great. Most likely fodder summons + a not so great version of edo tensei may not be enough



Senjuclan said:


> 2.	You make it sound like it was two separate events when it is clear it was one event. *Kin and Gin did not know that Tobirama was dead (they thought he summoned them). T*his shows that they died shortly after that battle, which would make it impossible for Kin to be leading another team


Its always a good idea to read the manga rather than you know, looking at the pictures. For the bold part 1. Hint “DEAD ASS”. They knew it was his techniques, but they ALSO knew he was dead.

Anybody who reads the manga will tell you that, those were separate events.
One was after a  kage summit. On this occasion they ambushed him and nindaime raikage. 
1
1


The second Tobirama was with his team. Different event, different time. I’m sure you know of that scan very well.
As for Kin to be leading this 20 hunter nin team, is also false. Yes I get the name, but its hinted that, they didn’t have ties with the village after ambushing the kages. mostly it was their squad which hadn’t ungone a name change and not because they were still part of the 20 hunters. Also certain Tobirama when he used his sensory ability would have noted those 2 chakra’s very well after they gave him an ass whooping like never before, well that and because their chakra is special. Something a sensor would remember



Senjuclan said:


> 3.	Also, fighting 20 people is totally different from fighting one person


Always believed in quality over quantity. Take it you don’t? How many times have we seen 1 single shinobi sweep aside a number of opponents
Anyway I have said my peace. Rarely partake in battle threads, but my original post was more about these genjutsu ‘counters’ and particularly the successful bunshin feints that every itachi opponent will successfully work agains’t him.

These bunshin/sensory > genjutsu basic logic is more complicated when put in practice than some say. 
Reminds me of gakido > PS (Nagaot vs Madara). In reality, nagato wouldn't be half way in absorbing the fungus on PS big toe before his ass get swept aside by the shockwave from its sword. People like to make basic claims just be looking at specific abilities that will either be difficult in an actual battle scenario or plain impossible


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## Senjuclan (Sep 7, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> So. We do not know whether he is as good as kakashi when it comes to bunshin feints or strategy regardless of whether he created the technique.
> Also strategy and overall intelligence are two different things. Its rather clear, or should be clear by now that when it comes to strategy the only people above kakashi is shikaku and shikamaru



1. We do know how he used justsus. For him to have this jutsu, to have created it and not use it for feints that even Naruto uses is an absurd argument
2. If your point is to argue Tobirama's abilities as a strategist, I will not waste my time. Most anyone on this board knows to put him above Itachi and that famous Shikamaru you mentioned compared his future role to Tobirama's when it comes to strategic counseling 



Ablaze said:


> Anybody can fall for bunshin feints, but you see itachi isn't going to fall for a similar strategy again. he should be more aware that bunshins is a possible way of negating genjutsu than ever. Also you are forgetting something. if a bunshin user creates a bunshin infront of itachi, no shit itachi will note this and take precautions. Kakashi went further than just creating a bunshin, he hid out of sight completely. Create a bunshin in front of itachi and he isn't stupid enough to just willy nilly use genjutsu. No shit there is more than one Tobirama.



1. It does not matter how aware he is. If he can't tell a bunshin apart, he will fall for it
2. Do you really think that using a suiton to distract Itachi while taking advantage of the ensuing the time he cannot see to make a bunshin and hide is difficult?



Ablaze said:


> If it comes down to it, karasu bunshin's and kage bunshins both have feats of using genjutsu, so for every kage bunshin tobirama uses to try and negate genjutsu, itachi can quiet simple create karasu bunshin to increase the propability of genjutsu initiation



Sure! Because Itachi has the chakra to do this, right? 




Ablaze said:


> Well, Bunshin’s in general not just kage bunshin’s are used to fool/catch an opponent off guard. Only difference in this scenario is that, its itachi. Never underestimates an opponent, let alone a hokage. To top it off, has already been tricked by not just a bunshin feint like you say, but something far more impressive than just a bunshin feint. Also remind you that, if Itachi has read up on the village and its beginnings, along with the fact that he is also a kage bunshin user, he may just know who created the jutsu and would be wary of bunshin’s.



1. Anyone with a keen sense of observation can tell apart a simple bunshin. You would have known this if you read the manga more often. Bringing it up is irrelevant 
2. It does not matter if it is Itachi, Shikamaru or Kaguya. If you can't tell a kage bunshin apart, you will fall for it
3. Madara is the only person with the history of telling apart clones but when he did not use his sharingan, he fell for a clone feint. Itachi ain't no different 



Ablaze said:


> True Tobirama will be on his guard from the very beginning and would most likely have his sensing skills activated, but then again, Shee didn’t..



Good thing Tobirama has WAY MORE experience and genius than Shii



Ablaze said:


> Putting prep to one side, because we know who he can summon to significantly increase his chances and if I remember correctly his version wasn’t even that great. Most likely fodder summons + a not so great version of edo tensei may not be enough



1. Once summoned, edo tensei requires no more prep. So, to say that I am giving one side prep defies logic
2. Does not matter who he can summon. Those summons with hiraishin tags on them will tire Itachi out and create openings for him
3. His version was exactly the same as Orochimaru except for the control tags



Ablaze said:


> Its always a good idea to read the manga rather than you know, looking at the pictures. For the bold part 1. Hint “DEAD ASS”. They knew it was his techniques, but they ALSO knew he was dead.





1. Kiddo, using that condescending tone when you are wrong makes you sound quite idiotic 
2. The author never used the words dead ass. If you read this manga long enough, you would have known to check translations against TaKL and VIZ. All they said was that they were summoned by Tobirama, who they had defeated  



Ablaze said:


> Anybody who reads the manga will tell you that, those were separate events.
> One was after a  kage summit. On this occasion they ambushed him and nindaime raikage.
> 1
> 1
> ...



1. Anyone who reads the manga??? What a feeble argument. 
2. It was one and the same event. The fact that they did not know Tobirama was dead is proof of this. Furthermore, if your argument is that they did not have ties with the village, therefore it stands to reason that they should not have a team named after them. For a reviled villain who had severed ties with the village to still have a team named after him makes no sense
3. Finally, why would Kumo attack a hokage? Why would Konoha not go to war over that? Also, before you come here and repeat that erroneous translation about them being bounty hunters, I would like to inform you that the manga never said they were. That is another mistranslation you are working with



Ablaze said:


> Always believed in quality over quantity. Take it you don’t?
> Anyway I have said my peace. Rarely partake in battle threads, but my original post was more about these genjutsu ‘counters’ and particularly the successful bunshin feints that every itachi opponent will successfully work agains’t him.
> 
> These bunshin/sensory > genjutsu basic logic is more complicated when put in practice than some say.
> Reminds me of gakido > PS (Nagaot vs Madara). In reality, nagato wouldn't be half way in absorbing the fungus on PS big toe before his ass get swept aside by the shockwave from its sword. People like to make basic claims just be looking at specific abilities that will either be difficult in an actual battle scenario or plain impossible



1. It is easier for 20 people to counter hiraishin than it is for one unless that one person is godly, which Itachi is not
2. When Gakido has a feat of countering PS, let me know. Otherwise, I will say that the creator of KB who was known for feints will use KB to feint the sharingan as the manga shows


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## crisler (Sep 7, 2014)

Creator, yes....but the best user or edo tensei is either orochimaru or kabuto and minato is better at using hiraishin.

Its likely that tobirama is not the best in kage bunshin either..


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2014)

crisler said:


> Its likely that tobirama is not the best in kage bunshin either..



of course he is not. 
how he could be when Narudo is around?


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 7, 2014)

Substituting himself completely out of the battle and waiting for an opportunity to strike may not be something that Tobirama routinely practices in character. We don't know how often tobirama uses kage bushin for feinting or if he even uses KB to feint in the first place. Some people just use KB in plain view of their adversaries. If Tobirama did use KB for feinting we don't know if he's as good with it as Itachi is either, since Itachi somehow managed to dip out of battle unseen with both kabuto and sasuke present.

It's harder to make a case for tobirama to feint itachi than it is to make a case for Itachi feinting tobirama.

as for the battle, I think it's 50/50. Amaterasu is basically useless due to hiraishin, and susano'o/totsuka is dodgeable with hiraishin as well. Susanoo can be used for defensive purposes but that's it. 

 Itachi'd have to catch tobirama in genjutsu to win, which while it's his only victory scenario I still see it as one that could potentially happen as much times as not. Tobirama has fought uchiha and knows better than most presumably of how to avoid genjutsu.

Itachi's a complete outlier among uchiha when it comes to casting genjutsu though. sasuke,madara, obito etc have all only shown one way of catching targets(direct eye contact). They usually execute that single way in an overtly obvious manner to boot. Itachi not only has multiple different ways of genjutsing targets, but he's usually much more subtle about it. 

If he can outsmart tobirama he can win, but him not outsmarting tobirama is also likely. It can go either way imo.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2014)

Tobirama is a sensor, he will know if he's in a genjutsu.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Substituting himself completely out of the battle and waiting for an opportunity to strike may not be something that Tobirama routinely practices in character.



Madara said IC he makes his opponents think they have won only to attack them after. How else do you propose he would do this if not with Kage bunshin?



Lawrence777 said:


> It's harder to make a case for tobirama to feint itachi than it is to make a case for Itachi feinting tobirama.



It's harder to make the case that Itachi will feint a sensor. He may not have the ability to tell a bunshin apart but he would know Itachi made one


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## Blaze Release (Sep 7, 2014)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. We do know how he used justsus. For him to have this jutsu, to have created it and not use it for feints that even Naruto uses is an absurd argument.



Nobody arguing whether he uses it for feints, but rather just how good he is and while he did create the technique, we cannot assume he is the best at it. Looking at his fighting style, it appears it is mainly hiraishin and possibly suiton. He also has very limited screen time to analyse just how good he is with feints. Ill also say from what we seen from their bunshin usage, itachi actually has the better feats.




Senjuclan said:


> 2. If your point is to argue Tobirama's abilities as a strategist, I will not waste my time. Most anyone on this board knows to put him above Itachi and that famous Shikamaru you mentioned compared his future role to Tobirama's when it comes to strategic counseling



Could careless who would put him above who. I certainly will not put him above shikamaru and itachi




Senjuclan said:


> It does not matter how aware he is. If he can't tell a bunshin apart, he will fall for it



Sure, but his awareness will be heightened after the kakashi fight. Similarly the same logic applies to Tobirama, just like itachi may not be able to tell his apart, he also will not be able to tell itachi’s apart, especially when itachi's ninjutsu execution comes into play, but also itachi's bunshin's are actually far more lethal than Tobirama's. Apart either bunshins capable of casting genjutsu, his kage bunshin can explode. His karasu bunshin can temp disperse and block the opponent sight in order to create an opening or hide shurikens/kunai's



Senjuclan said:


> Do you really think that using a suiton to distract Itachi while taking advantage of the ensuing the time he cannot see to make a bunshin and hide is difficult?



If life was that simple agains’t Itachi, sure. Otherwise not so sure




Senjuclan said:


> Sure! Because Itachi has the chakra to do this, right?



With karasu bunshins he has. Needs far less chakra than kage bunshin


1.	





Senjuclan said:


> Anyone with a keen sense of observation can tell apart a simple bunshin. You would have known this if you read the manga more often. Bringing it up is irrelevant
> 2.	It does not matter if it is Itachi, Shikamaru or Kaguya. If you can't tell a kage bunshin apart, you will fall for it
> 3.	Madara is the only person with the history of telling apart clones but when he did not use his sharingan, he fell for a clone feint. Itachi ain't no different



I take it you thought I meant the basic bunshin. Mean’t bunshin in general as in the different forms of bunshins. Karasu, mokuton, etc. Itachi like everybody else may not be able to tell apart bunshin’s but again, he seems to have learn’t from that experience and not so long ago, managed to diffuse naruto’s bunshin’s and initiate with the original, genjutsu who he letter let swallow the crow
J Madara's
J Madara's




Senjuclan said:


> Good thing Tobirama has WAY MORE experience and genius than Shii



Good for him, though it was mainly to show that even with knowledge and a sensor you can still get caught off guard. On the same note, Tobirama may be a genius however it appears he is also very hot headed, especially when things aren’t going his way/wants his way. A trait that Hashirama noted and later praised orochimaru be restraining him and later then did he sense orochimaru to note that, his body is made up hashirama’s dna.

If we really want to go onto IC Tobirama, didn’t he look into sasuke’s eyes. We all know how that will end up when faced agains’t itachi



Senjuclan said:


> 1. Once summoned, edo tensei requires no more prep. So, to say that I am giving one side prep defies logic
> 2. Does not matter who he can summon. Those summons with hiraishin tags on them will tire Itachi out and create openings for him
> 3. His version was exactly the same as Orochimaru except for the control tags



Several characters does mention his use of it, but we have no feats of this. To top if off we don’t even know he was capably of summoning. Doesn’t appear to be any of the previous kage’s, therefore fodders. Sure he can tag, but his hiraishin is inferior to Minato’s. May I remind you also that in order for his fodders or himself to tire itachi out with hiraishin he would have to have a seal or tags near itachi and he doesn’t use hiraishin with kunai’s to the extent that minato does.

Was also confirmed that while he created it, he didn’t have as much general control over them as orochimaru/kabuto, especially when it comes to the quantity. One or 2 fodders will not make much of a difference, especially when their control isn’t that great too. His edo tensei lacks powerful summonings, but also lacks control. Quality of summonings and Quantity of Summons is what tobirama lacks with his version
J Madara's



Senjuclan said:


> 1. Kiddo, using that condescending tone when you are wrong makes you sound quite idiotic
> 2. The author never used the words dead ass. If you read this manga long enough, you would have known to check translations against TaKL and VIZ. All they said was that they were summoned by Tobirama, who they had defeated




Haha, Kiddo? Yes Grandpa?
Anyway you see im not that bothered anymore with Naruto to check every single detail with people and I don’t buy VIZ, waste of money no matter how small it is. But you see Tobirama still died before they did.

Tobirama was said to have died in the first ever shinobi war. The bro’s seem to know sandaime raikage enough to note that Darui also has his black lightning. During that era, it was nindame raikage who was in charge, we have no idea when or how he died, but you see if Kin/Gin died before Tobirama or they died shortly after the Tobirama battle like you seem to claim (not sure which one actually) which was the 1st war, it makes it hard to believe that they know sandaime raikage and his abilities



Senjuclan said:


> 1. Anyone who reads the manga??? What a feeble argument.
> 2. It was one and the same event. The fact that they did not know Tobirama was dead is proof of this. Furthermore, if your argument is that they did not have ties with the village, therefore it stands to reason that they should not have a team named after them. For a reviled villain who had severed ties with the village to still have a team named after him makes no sense
> 3. Finally, why would Kumo attack a hokage? Why would Konoha not go to war over that? Also, before you come here and repeat that erroneous translation about them being bounty hunters, I would like to inform you that the manga never said they were. That is another mistranslation you are working with



Again the manga makes it perfectly clear that those were 2 events. The one with nindaime raikage was to form a treaty. The other he was with his students during the 1st shinobi war where he was finally killed.

“He endeavoured in the founding of the Academy and the establishment of the village's organisational system. However, shortly thereafter the Shinobi World War broke out. He entrusted the wishes of the suppression of war and the prospering of the village to his successor and died a noble death.”

Appears the events unfolded like this:
1.	Peace treaty between kumo/kono. Bro’s came and tore into the nindaime’s
2.	 1st shinobi war. 20 kumo killed him.
Perhaps one of the reasons that the 1st shinobi war broke out was because konoha/nindaime thought kumo set him up. The event with the 20 kumo ninja’s was during the 1st war. Prior to that is when he met with ninaime raikage and got his ass handed to him. Doesn’t even make sense for us to be told he was left on the brink of death and later was killed if it was the same event. The personals and event are also different. Two different events, but believe what you want.




Senjuclan said:


> 1. It is easier for 20 people to counter hiraishin than it is for one unless that one person is godly, which Itachi is not



Depending on skill more so than numerical advantage. Tobirama’s usage of the technique, simply isn’t on the same level as minato’s. Yes still tricky to deal with, but without having numerous hiraishin kunai’s to teleport to, he is limited.

2 raging buffoons managed to land significant hits to leave him clinging onto dear life. Anyway as I said it can either way. Biased maybe but I am leaning towards Itachi.

EDIT: Something tells me this is going to take ages, so ill leave it at that


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## Senjuclan (Sep 7, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> Nobody arguing whether he uses it for feints, but rather just how good he is and while he did create the technique, we cannot assume he is the best at it. Looking at his fighting style, it appears it is mainly hiraishin and possibly suiton. He also has very limited screen time to analyse just how good he is with feints. Ill also say from what we seen from their bunshin usage, itachi actually has the better feats.



1. Whether he is the best or not is irrelevant. The relevant question is whether or not he uses feints IC
2. His style revolves around deceiving his opponents into complacency according to the author. Only way he could what Madara said is with kage bunshin



Ablaze said:


> Could careless who would put him above who. I certainly will not put him above shikamaru and itachi



Funny how you always say everbody agrees ...




Ablaze said:


> Sure, but his awareness will be heightened after the kakashi fight. Similarly the same logic applies to Tobirama, just like itachi may not be able to tell his apart, he also will not be able to tell itachi’s apart, especially when itachi's ninjutsu execution comes into play, but also itachi's bunshin's are actually far more lethal than Tobirama's. Apart either capable of casting genjutsu, his kage bunshin can explode. His karasu bunshin can temp disperse and block the opponent sight in order to create an opening or hide shurikens/kunai's



1. In other words he will fall for a feint unless he can tell a bunshin apart
2. Tobirama on the other hand is a sensor and therefore could sense the presence of more than one chakra or the building up of chakra in an exploding bunshin



Ablaze said:


> If life was that simple agains’t Itachi, sure. Otherwise not so sure



1. In other words you have no counter argument 
2. Kakashi has done it twice



Ablaze said:


> With karasu bunshins he has



Does not. Still uses chakra



Ablaze said:


> I take it you thought I meant the basic bunshin. Mean’t bunshin in general as in the different forms of bunshins. Karasu, mokuton, etc. Itachi like everybody else may not be able to tell apart bunshin’s but again, he seems to have learn’t from that experience and not so long ago, managed to diffuse naruto’s bunshin’s and initiate with the original, genjutsu who he letter let swallow the crow
> J Madara's
> J Madara's



In other words you have no counter argument. Fine




Ablaze said:


> Good for him, though it was mainly to show that even with knowledge and a sensor you can still get caught off guard. On the same note, Tobirama may be a genius however it appears he is also very hot headed, especially when things aren’t going his way/wants his way. A trait that Hashirama noted and later praised orochimaru be restraining him and later then did he sense orochimaru to note that, his body is made up hashirama’s dna.
> 
> If we really want to go onto IC Tobirama, didn’t he look into sasuke’s eyes. We all know how that will end up when faced agains’t itachi



In other words you have no counter argument and you are filibustering. 



Ablaze said:


> Several characters does mention his use of it, but we have no feats of this. To top if off we don’t even know he was capably of summoning. Doesn’t appear to be any of the previous kage’s, therefore fodders. Sure he can tag, but his hiraishin is inferior to Minato’s. May I remind you also that in order for his fodders or himself to tire itachi out with hiraishin he would have to have a seal or tags near itachi and he doesn’t use hiraishin with kunai’s to the extent that minato does.



1. Who he can summon is a moot point
2. He has shown the ability to teleport people without touching them when he saved the fodder against Shinjuu. He will teleport his zombies from totsuka if Itachi tries to use it and cause them to explode repeatedly, which will force Itachi to use susano'o and drain his chakra



Ablaze said:


> Was also confirmed that while he created it, he didn’t have as much general control over them as orochimaru/kabuto, especially when it comes to the quantity. One or 2 fodders will not make much of a difference, especially when their control isn’t that great too. His edo tensei lacks powerful summonings, but also lacks control. Quality of summonings and Quantity of Summons is what tobirama lacks with his version
> J Madara's.



1. Nonsense. His zombies are actually more dangerous because of the way he uses them. They are walking bombs, which require Itachi to defend with susanoo
2. Quantity on the level of Kabuto is what he lacks. That's it. He does not lack control. He doesn't have Orochimaru mind erasing tag. Quality is not an issue. He could easily have Izuna



Ablaze said:


> Haha, Kiddo? Yes Grandpa?
> Anyway you see im not that bothered anymore with Naruto to check every single detail with people and I don’t buy VIZ, waste of money no matter how small it is. But you see Tobirama still died before they did.
> 
> Tobirama was said to have died in the first ever shinobi war. The bro’s seem to know sandaime raikage enough to note that Darui also has his black lightning. During that era, it was nindame raikage who was in charge, we have no idea when or how he died, but you see if Kin/Gin died before Tobirama or they died shortly after the Tobirama battle like you seem to claim (not sure which one actually) which was the 1st war, it makes it hard to believe that they know sandaime raikage and his abilities.



1. You were wrong excuses don't matter
2. Because sandaime hokage was not contemporary of the nidaime, right? Sandaime took over after nidaime, which means he was a noted shinobi already



Ablaze said:


> Again the manga makes it perfectly clear that those were 2 events. The one with nindaime raikage was to form a treaty. The other he was with his students during the 1st shinobi war where he was finally killed.
> 
> “He endeavoured in the founding of the Academy and the establishment of the village's organisational system. However, shortly thereafter the Shinobi World War broke out. He entrusted the wishes of the suppression of war and the prospering of the village to his successor and died a noble death.”
> 
> ...





If you read the manga instead of looking at pictures you would know that the first great shinobi war broke out during Hashirama's life

The two events were one and the same




Ablaze said:


> Depending on skill more so than numerical advantage. Tobirama’s usage of the technique, simply isn’t on the same level as minato’s. Yes still tricky to deal with, but without having numerous hiraishin kunai’s to teleport to, he is limited.
> 
> 2 ranging buffoons managed to land significant hits to leave him clinging onto dear life. Anyway as I said it can either way. Biased maybe but I am leaning towards Itachi.



1. Tobirama can do the exact same thing Minato can. He can mark multiple objects and warp to them. He could use a bunshin to swap places and avoid an attack
2. The only true statement you made so far is that you are biased. I already knew that but I am happy I helped you see it.


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## Blaze Release (Sep 8, 2014)

Didn’t believe somebody would make me come back to a thread I said I wasn’t coming back. Anyway Ill wrap up with a final response.

You seem to not take note of the IC status of Tobirama. In fact you have tried to throw every ability he possess into this situation to try and give him the win. Sensoring isn’t passive, but also requires a lot of concentration.
 Kage bunshin ischakra taxing and while a user, his main fighting style is actually hiraishin + suiton with kage bunshin thrown in. However he doesn’t appear to use it to the same degree as kakashi/Naruto and even Itachi.
Hiraishin is one of his main moves, however you have tried everything possible to claim Minato’s feats from himself. IC Tobirama normally doesn’t use hiraishin with kunai’s the same way Minato does. As for suiton, by all means, Tobirama can supply sutions and flood the area with water. Itachi will use this water to his advantage and save chakra as he is also a suiton user, a good one at that too.

Edo tensei. I merely went along with your desperate attempt of trying to include edo tensei. As I said we have no feats from him, but also fodders will not help much. To top it off, he doesn’t appear to have the same level of control as other users. As for you claiming, he can tag the edo’s and make them explode when they come in contact with itachi, is that he needs a tag near itachi, but also the sharingan will allow itachi to note that an explosion is on its way. More importantly edo shinobis are vulnerable most of the time after taking a significant hit. A full body explosion will take time for them to reform and it isn’t as if tobirama can hiraishin them back to a safe distance (as they would be nothing but little fragmented pieces in the air still forming) to stop itachi taking advantage during their reforming state and seal them.

But this is me playing along with your edo tensei claim and allowing you to carry on with it. Again you seem to ignore IC. Tobirama although he used it early on, later banned it and labelled it a kinjutsu. This means two things. Firstly it means that, he would not have prep available to him as he would not have made prep for a technique he had banned and labelled a kinjutsu, clearly has no intentions of using it so there goes your prep argument. Secondly once he forbid it and labelled it a kinjutsu, that completely restricts IC Tobirama’s usage of the technique completely in battle. Foolish as Itachi fans claiming Izanami in an IC battle.

You argument is simply made up by throwing every ability into the mix and not taking note of certain restrictions due to his character/nature or even feats that he is limited with. 
Constant sensing + multiple kage bunshins + hiraishin usage mirroring minato's usage + controlling a number of edo tensei and making them explode. 
If Tobirama only had that much concentration, lol he'd fuck up trying to keep an eye and maintain all of these things, he may even forget he is fighting somebody. That is basically your argument, throwing everything in without actually thinking certain things through.

I am not going to get into that again. If the manga hasn’t already made it obvious that the two situations are completely different and involves different people at different times, I cannot convince you either. Come to think of it, I have been warned about you especially when it comes to the senju brothers. Should have taken their advice

Nice of you to use agains’t me, what I said about reading the manga instead of looking at the pictures. You see, that actually does apply to me lol lately I have been looking at the pictures and ignoring the words. But since you claimed I need to read the manga and instead of the looking at the pictures, in relation to the time of Hashirama’s death, its only fair you upload me this manga page where it was stated that he died in the 1st great shinobi war. clearly you believe there is a manga page for this, so by all means upload it and let us see

There is a misconception that he died in the 1st war. No manga page has this, the closest thing we have is the first DB. It was said he died in a war during that era, however it never explicitly stated that it was that it was the first and infact hints that he died before the first world war actually broke out.
“The Nidaime is the Shodai's younger brother by blood, who inherited his brother's dying wish and was called "Hokage" after the Shodai died. He endeavoured in the founding of the Academy and the establishment of the village's organisational system. However, shortly thereafter the Shinobi World War broke out. He entrusted the wishes of the suppression of war and the prospering of the village to his successor and died a noble death.”

The only person that was explicitly stated to have died in the first Great War was Nindaime. There appears to be other frictions, one of which lead to hashirama’s death, but not the actual first world war. Little things was going on, which later caused the first war. Seems he died before that started, though the whole event remains rather unclear but we have gone of track anyway.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 8, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> Didn?t believe somebody would make me come back to a thread I said I wasn?t coming back. Anyway Ill wrap up with a final response.
> 
> You seem to not take note of the IC status of Tobirama. In fact you have tried to throw every ability he possess into this situation to try and give him the win. Sensoring isn?t passive, but also requires a lot of concentration.
> Kage bunshin ischakra taxing and while a user, his main fighting style is actually hiraishin + suiton with kage bunshin thrown in. However he doesn?t appear to use it to the same degree as kakashi/Naruto and even Itachi.
> ...



Ablaze,

Do not flatter yourself. I did not make you do anything. You are coming back at your own volition. Also, for someone who pretends he does not want to engage in this argument, why are you constantly throwing walls of text? Please make your responses as short as mine. Also, If you are only going to repeat the same stuff, you are wasting both our time

1. Sensoring requires molding chakra, something a sensor does in battle
2. Tobirama uses KB in character as evidenced by the fact that he used it in the only extended fight we have of him
3. I never claimed he uses hiraishin with a kunai. Furthermore, it is not even germane to the argument
4. Your argument about edo tensei is idiotic. One does not need a tag by Itachi to get a zombie next to Itachi. They can move and attack Itachi. Also, it takes less time for them to recover from the explosion than it does for the repeating explosions themselves to stop as evidenced by the fight against Obito
5. You don?t seem to read the manga much besides simply looking at pictures. Just because a jutsu is a kinjutsu does not mean one does not use it regularly. Hashirama labelled tajuu kage bunshin a kinjutsu and yet he uses it. Tobirama casually offered to summon Madara. He has no qualms about using the jutsu. His contemporaries all assumed he had summoned them, meaning they knew he did not have any qualms about using the jutsu
6. You don?t want to get into the argument about the kin-gin brothers because you have none. You know your argument is weak.
7. Check the last databook. The entry on jinchiruki. It specifically says that after Hashirama gave away the bijuu, the first great shinobi war started.


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## Dr. White (Sep 8, 2014)

ABlaze won that one. Please insert 50 cents and try again Senjuclan.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 8, 2014)

I don't see itachi beating tobirama really tobirama learned how to use the FTG like minato with tags on the kunai making him very versatile. He will make several shadow clones constantly confusing itachi, and they will place tags everywhere for tobirama and the clones to teleport to. He has the chakra to outlast itachi and overpower him. His sensing and reaction abilities shows he can out perform juubito at moments so I don't see totsuka or Amaterasu hitting him. He's been fighting uchihas all his life so genjutsu isn't happening on him. With extremely high difficulty tobirama will win.


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## SharinganKisame (Sep 8, 2014)

crisler said:


> Creator, yes....but the best user or edo tensei is either orochimaru or kabuto and minato is better at using hiraishin.
> 
> Its likely that tobirama is not the best in kage bunshin either..



People always get tobirama's ET usage wrong...you can't compare his ET with Oro and Kabuto. Oro and kabuto use ET to revive strong people so they can use their techniques against the enemy. On the other hand Tobirama has the weakest ET but it doesn't matter since he uses this jutsu only  for special techniques made for ET like gojo kibakufuda so we don't care how strong his edo is, it can be edo hashirama or edo moegi and its the same thing.  

Minato may be better at hiraishin but the speed is the same.

Tobirama was known to use tricky moves to beat his opponent, KB is the best thing to trick someone in  a fight.  (look at all naruto fights since part 1) Also, tobirama may not have the same number of KB as naruto, but he can definetely make more than Kakashi, while being on the same level of intelligence and battle tactics. 

Tobirama beats healthy itachi with high diff if ET is restricted and if not, then it's a mid diff for him.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 8, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> ABlaze won that one. Please insert 50 cents and try again Senjuclan.



Won what exactly? I countered each one of his arguments and proved them wrong!

Which argument did he win that It is not IC for Tobirama to use Kage bunshin or that it would be difficult for him to sense while fighting or maybe that the events with the Kin-Gin brothers were two separate events or maybe that edo tensei will not tire Itachi? 

Tell me which argument he won


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## SpitefulSerpent5 (Sep 8, 2014)

Completely depends on who Nidaime summons via Edo Tensei. But this probably ends with a whole lot of Amaterasu.


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## Senjuclan (Sep 8, 2014)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> Completely depends on who Nidaime summons via Edo Tensei. But this probably ends with a whole lot of Amaterasu.



How will Amaterasu help when nidaime has hiraishin?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 10, 2014)

Ablaze said:


> You seem to not take note of the IC status of Tobirama. In fact you have tried to throw every ability he possess into this situation to try and give him the win. Sensoring isn?t passive, but also requires a lot of concentration.
> Kage bunshin ischakra taxing and while a user, his main fighting style is actually hiraishin + suiton with kage bunshin thrown in. However he doesn?t appear to use it to the same degree as kakashi/Naruto and even Itachi.
> Hiraishin is one of his main moves, however you have tried everything possible to claim Minato?s feats from himself. IC Tobirama normally doesn?t use hiraishin with kunai?s the same way Minato does. As for suiton, by all means, Tobirama can supply sutions and flood the area with water. Itachi will use this water to his advantage and save chakra as he is also a suiton user, a good one at that too.


IC status for Tobirama means that he will kill Itachi no matter what, he hates Uchihas unless they have shown their loyalty. Meanwhile IC for ITachi means that he will feel his opponent out before using anything major.  Itachi is no where near Tobirama in suiton capability, also Tobirama has a large chakra pool.



> Edo tensei. I merely went along with your desperate attempt of trying to include edo tensei. As I said we have no feats from him, but also fodders will not help much. To top it off, he doesn?t appear to have the same level of control as other users. As for you claiming, he can tag the edo?s and make them explode when they come in contact with itachi, is that he needs a tag near itachi, but also the sharingan will allow itachi to note that an explosion is on its way. More importantly edo shinobis are vulnerable most of the time after taking a significant hit. A full body explosion will take time for them to reform and it isn?t as if tobirama can hiraishin them back to a safe distance (as they would be nothing but little fragmented pieces in the air still forming) to stop itachi taking advantage during their reforming state and seal them.


The sharingan see lumps of chakra unless Itachi is specifically focusing on an area. Mutually multiplying Explosive Tags doesn't have to be near Itachi, only within radius which is rather large and I don't think Itachi could survive it bar Izanagi no matter what his defense is. And can use it with a clone if there is no ET as the tags summon other tags. Then Tobirama strikes Itachi while he is busy fighting the ET and sealing. Tobirama grew up killing Uchihas and didn't give a damn about them and never really did, once he figures out Itachi is an Uchiha(which he can probably do a mile away) it a whole different fight. 





> But this is me playing along with your edo tensei claim and allowing you to carry on with it. Again you seem to ignore IC. Tobirama although he used it early on, later banned it and labelled it a kinjutsu. This means two things. Firstly it means that, he would not have prep available to him as he would not have made prep for a technique he had banned and labelled a kinjutsu, clearly has no intentions of using it so there goes your prep argument. Secondly once he forbid it and labelled it a kinjutsu, that completely restricts IC Tobirama?s usage of the technique completely in battle. Foolish as Itachi fans claiming Izanami in an IC battle.


Yet he did use and to an extent and wanted to bring Madara back himself. He is ever willing to use it if it means winning. To think in his hay day he wouldn't have a fodder or two on standby, especially if he has jutsus to implore with that techniques isn't ridiculous in the least bit. Not to mention it was said that it was used on enemy ninja to gain intelligence, maybe a Uchiha he's killed more of them in his life time than anyone else.


> You argument is simply made up by throwing every ability into the mix and not taking note of certain restrictions due to his character/nature or even feats that he is limited with.


No you are not taking not of his character and nature when an Uchiha is involved. He highly distrust them and will not ever hesitate to kill one. His brother was slaughtered by the Uchiha, you don't let that shit go no matter what especially given Tobirama seems like one to hold a grudge. He put Izuna down like a dog, while Hashirama let Madara live.





> Constant sensing + multiple kage bunshins + hiraishin usage mirroring minato's usage + controlling a number of edo tensei and making them explode.
> If Tobirama only had that much concentration, lol he'd fuck up trying to keep an eye and maintain all of these things, he may even forget he is fighting somebody. That is basically your argument, throwing everything in without actually thinking certain things through.


No but he can use small level sensing summon 1 bunshin to feel Itachi out in CQC then attack when an opening is presented. Itachi as being IC will try to use a katon which is block with Water Encampment wall, Tobirama makes another one and puts exploding tags on their back then tags his clones with Hiraishin. Then the proceed with the assault Tobirama will have a fail safe Hiraishin location set up and when he see an opportunity he will evacuate and detonate either clone and start MMET.





> I am not going to get into that again. If the manga hasn?t already made it obvious that the two situations are completely different and involves different people at different times, I cannot convince you either. Come to think of it, I have been warned about you especially when it comes to the senju brothers. Should have taken their advice.


Well have you had word of Ichliebe?

Shit let me tell you bout Itachi, Tobirama and Hashirama>>>>>Alive Healthy perfect Itachi. Because they are experienced Uchiha kiling machines that are highly versatile.






MMET, Bunshins, Hiraishin, high powered suitons, experience, and plenty of other things give Tobirama the favor.


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## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Could go either way. Tobirama is a logical, strategical genius with FTG and a solid base repetiore, but Itachi's insight, analytical ability, genjutsu/clone game and MS Hax gonna give him a run for his money Izuna couldn't dream of.

Tobirama can beat Sick Itachi more times than not given the conditions and Edo Itachi beats any form of Tobirama more often than not given the conditions.

The only way I'd ever say one definitely wins over the other is if Itachi's Koto crow is allowed, or Itachi begins the fight tagged.


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## Icegaze (Sep 11, 2014)

Its odd this battle seems to go different when its minato vs itachi
people minato is essentially a tobirama dub with rasengan. 
Tobirama beats itachi the way and with the same ease minato would. 

Again nothing at all suggests tobirama didnt spread kunais round or didnt clone spam. Nothing stops tobirama from the start of the match from using 10 kagebunshins who are all tagged. 

itachi gets murdered soooo bad its unpleasant. 
Camping in susanoo is fine but oh god please hope he doesnt get pushed into a kunai. a kunai inside his susanoo will be the death of him. 

Since susanoo isnt protected from the bottom itachi could easily have a kunai within his susanoo from there. he dies


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## Sadgoob (Sep 11, 2014)

Tobirama's significantly better than Minato, and he certainly doesn't beat Itachi with anything less than high difficulty.

Tobirama ≥ Itachi > Minato​


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## Icegaze (Sep 11, 2014)

Lol itachi beats minato 
The lolz too much for me 
No wait apparently tobirama struggles against itachi 
Why would someone who can spam KB and have each use hirashin struggle against itachi 
What is itachi going to do?


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## JuicyG (Sep 24, 2014)

Itachi loses this match the same way he'd lose to Minato.


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## ARGUS (Sep 24, 2014)

Tobirama wins this 

 - He can use KB and can mark his kunai as well as summon his edos to increase his use of FTG thus enabling him to evade all of itachis atttacks 

 - Tobirama can then use GKF to bust open itachis susanoo and can then proceed to mark him and once that happens he is done for

 - genjutsu is not happening either since itachi lcks the precog to track tobiramas speed as well as the fact that tobirama has intel on uchihas and MS and would know how to combat it 

 - Itachi needs to use his susanoo in-order to prevent himself from getting marked meaning that tobirama can just evade all of his attacks and outlast him, not that it matters since GKF would bust roughly all of his susanoo variants bar V4 which he cant use for long periods anyways,


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## Trojan (Sep 24, 2014)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> Completely depends on who Nidaime summons via Edo Tensei. But this probably ends with a whole lot of Amaterasu.


I don't think that matters as he will use them just for the explosion tags jutsu.


Strategoob said:


> Tobirama's significantly better than Minato, and he certainly doesn't beat Itachi with anything less than high difficulty.
> 
> Tobirama ≥ Itachi > Minato​







JuicyG said:


> Itachi loses this match the same way he'd lose to Minato.



Not really, as Minato superior to both. Even Tobirama knows his place when compared to Minato. U_U


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## Bkprince33 (Sep 24, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Unrestricted Tobirama with prep(Edo Tensei) is noticeably above Itachi in my opinion. Without Edo Tensei I can see fight being very close but still advantageous to Tobirama due to his fighting style countering Itachi's well and vast amount of experience and knowledge in Uchiha-killing.
> 
> Tobirama is one of the few people to whom I grant ability to fight skilled Uchihas while completely avoiding eye-contact. Sensing+KB+Hiraishin+actual experience. That deals with normal genjutsu and Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



^^^ this took the words right out my mouth


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