# Marco vs Gura Teach.



## Orca (Oct 23, 2013)

Marco Vs Gura Teach. This is pre ts teach.

Location : Banaro island.

Mindset: Bloodlusted.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 23, 2013)

If this is Post TS Teach, if this is Pre TS then Marco . The Gorosei acknowledge Marco for being one of the Powers to take down Teach and Gura Teach was a novice at Gura .


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## Slenderman (Oct 23, 2013)

Well based on portrayal Gura Teach was the one along with his crew stopped Marco from becoming a Yonkou. He also successfully captured all of the territories.
So this brings me to the conclusion that Yami Teach wins high diff.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 23, 2013)

We don't know if he had to fight Marco to get the territories, it might even be the fact that Marco and the others didn't feel like it without their captain and Ace .


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## Forcer (Oct 23, 2013)

Gura Teach for the win, extreme difficulty pre, high difficulty post

''they didn't feel like it'' xD 
good one


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## Orca (Oct 23, 2013)

I personally think gura teach takes high diff. He has far better offensive. Plus he could negate marco's df.

@obdnewbie The gorosei only said that marco is one of the few people who has a chance against teach. They weren't certain. But what we do know is that no one was able to stop BB.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 23, 2013)

Forcer said:


> Gura Teach for the win, extreme difficulty pre, high difficulty post
> 
> ''they didn't feel like it'' xD
> good one



I meant that they " didn't feel like it " not on the lazy way, on the " My freaking captain died and I couldn't do anything but cry and scream Pops " like when Roger died, Rayleigh gave up piracy because he didn't feel like doing without Roger(That sounded gay) .

Well I think it's all about Marco don't get sucked up in Kurouzo because if he does it will be his finish after two quakes .


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## Slenderman (Oct 23, 2013)

OBDNewbie said:


> We don't know if he had to fight Marco to get the territories, it might even be the fact that Marco and the others didn't feel like it without their captain and Ace .



Marco would most certainly try to protect the territories. I doubt he would not protect the territories that his captain fought for. Though it's speculation there's a pretty big chance that he got beat by Teach or eventually gave up after all of their land was captured. Of course your point is valid to but this is just me speculating.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 23, 2013)

I thought of that possibility but then I thought : " I think it would be said when Blackbeard was re-introduced as fighting and owning WB's territory that he fought with the former WB Pirates because that would make he seem stronger than just saying that he conquered all of them ", but still valid point of yours . Well I still think of Marco and BB that if BB could shot him with quakes he would be done for


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## tanman (Oct 23, 2013)

Well, it's pretty speculative to assume:
a) Blackbeard defeated Marco.
b) Blackbeard defeated Marco in a fair one on one match.
c) Blackbeard defeated Marco soon enough after Marineford that it would be remotely relevant to this match.

I'm going to favor Marco due to his speed, fruit, and vastly superior Haki. He should be able to resist Yami Yami no mi, fly as Gura Gura Gura no mi destroys the island,  and blindside Blackbeard quite easily with his attacks.


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## RF (Oct 24, 2013)

Going by the logic some people use nobody is stronger than Gura Teach because nobody stopped him. At some point Teach surpassed him, but the Marineford one gets ripped apart.


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## trance (Oct 24, 2013)

Marco high difficulty. If nothing else, Marco at least has that much hype as stated by the Gorosei.


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## Slenderman (Oct 24, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Going by the logic some people use nobody is stronger than Gura Teach because nobody stopped him. At some point Teach surpassed him, but the Marineford one gets ripped apart.



Well Teach could take hits from WB while Marco's kicks are no where near that power.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Oct 24, 2013)

Pre TS - Teach high difficulty

Post TS - Teach mid difficulty

Teach can absorb a _lot_ of damage and Marco can't dish out much damage. It makes for a bad situation for Marco. 

I fail for the life of me see how people can believe that post TS Teach wouldn't defeat Marco. He became a Yonkou by taking over WB territories and despite having the biggest reason out of anyone to stop this from happening, Marco wasn't able to defeat Teach or even at the very least stop his rise to power. This suggests an obvious inferioty.


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## Urouge (Oct 24, 2013)

well for some reason some people believe that the wb pirate didnt clash against bb and his crew.


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## Mihawk (Oct 24, 2013)

As Harard and I have stated several times 
If they did clash then Jinbe would have stated it when he talked about how Teach took the territories

Why not tell Luffy that Teach also defeated Marco and crew if he was going on about how he was taking territories; gathering powerful devil fruits; and replacing WB as Emperor?

Why neglect such a crucial detail when defeating the whole crew would be bigger news than two of the former examples of the above?


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## Urouge (Oct 24, 2013)

wonder how oda will explain the fact that they " didnt" clash. I mean the wb pirates have to be a pathetic bunch to let the dude take over your deceased captain territory.


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## Doma (Oct 24, 2013)

Gura Teach for sure. Teach's hype and feats both shit on everything Marco's done. Teach took on a pissed off Sengoku and Garp and did well enough that Sengoku was covered in bandages afterwards and not a single member of his crew was captured. You can argue his crew helped him even though all we saw on-panel was them cowering in the background begging Teach to run away. But even so, his crew was worthless. The strongest member is Shiryuu and he sure is hell isn't doing shit to those two.


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## Vengeance (Oct 24, 2013)

Blackbeard with Yami + Gura > Marco even pre ts imo


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Oct 24, 2013)

If Pre-Skip Gura Teach was stronger than Marco, why did he run from Akainu?

Pre -Skip Teach loses to Marco high difficulty

Post- TS it could go either way


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## The World (Oct 24, 2013)

Teach quakes Marco to ash then sucks him up with Yami


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## Vengeance (Oct 24, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> If Pre-Skip Gura Teach was stronger than Marco, why did he run from Akainu?
> 
> Pre -Skip Teach loses to Marco high difficulty
> 
> Post- TS it could go either way



Akainu > pre ts 2 df Blackbeard >= Marco imo

Akainu is deadly, he would have raped Blackbeard's crew. Why should you fight someone that strong if it is basically futile anyway.

Post Ts Blackbeard is a freaking Yonkou, that automatically puts him above Marco


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## Orca (Oct 24, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> If Pre-Skip Gura Teach was stronger than Marco, why did he run from Akainu?
> 
> Pre -Skip Teach loses to Marco high difficulty
> 
> Post- TS it could go either way



Why would teach fight akainu and risk losing his crewmates when he has no reason to fight him. Teach is an opportunist.


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## Slenderman (Oct 24, 2013)

Teach quakes the  phoenix shit out of Marco.


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## Canute87 (Oct 24, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> As Harard and I have stated several times
> If they did clash then Jinbe would have stated it when he talked about how Teach took the territories
> 
> Why not tell Luffy that Teach also defeated Marco and crew if he was going on about how he was taking territories; gathering powerful devil fruits; and replacing WB as Emperor?
> ...




Maybe certain things are implied. 

I mean Blackbeard couldn't have been running from Marco for two years within such familiar territory.  Because as soon as he took over one Marco should have been able to claim it back but that''s not the case.  Teach has been able to maintain these territories and even have a decent fleet most of them probably from Whitebeard's old group of allies.
Ace is dead, other than that Luffy has no ties to the WB pirates to warrant that specific information being told to him.  What particular emotion or shock value would that have on Luffy?
Would it make hate luffy hate BB? If so why not Jinbei just tell luffy all the pirates who got killed by Blackbeard ?
See my point?

How long did it take for haki to be confirmed for Zoro and Sanji even though it was implied from the pacifista feat and fishman island? 
That's  because the plot eventually demanded luffy to divulge that information.

Oda doesn't reveal things to the sake of revealing directly to the reader he does so through the characters themselves in the most sensible situations.


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## Zoan (Oct 25, 2013)

You realize Teach had a head start, and he wasnt the only one attacking WB territories right? Maybe after losing two commanders and a captain they didnt find it wise to rush into battle again?


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## Canute87 (Oct 25, 2013)

And waiting TWO years for Teach to get stronger before fighting him was obviously the smarter choice?


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## RF (Oct 25, 2013)

Teach conquered the territories in the blink of an eye, him becoming an Emperor didn't take 2 years. Besides, why are you suggesting Marco is the one trying to initiate a battle between the two of them? Teach is the one acquiring powerful Devil Fruits, it would make sense if he hunted them down instead of vice versa. And then there's the possibility that he won't do a single thing to them at all. Way too much speculation, not a lot of sense. 

Citing tanman on this one:



> c) Blackbeard defeated Marco soon enough after Marineford that it would be remotely relevant to this match.



Blackbeard surpassing Marco assuredly happened, but at what point? There was a 2 year time gap, we're solely discussing Teach as we saw him at Marineford. The man was incapable of doing a single thing to Whitebeard who was seconds away from dying, and he ran for the hills at the sight of a man Marco battled evenly against. And then there's the Gorosei statement. 

Everything points to Marco being the winner here, but it would definitely be a difficult match.


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## Teach (Oct 25, 2013)

The Gorosei statement for Marco was that Marco could MAYBE stop him, which didn't happen. BB conquered the islands and became a Yonkou almost instantly, so it's pretty safe to say that he was easily a top-tier before time-skip.

Then there's the mechanical reasonings why BB would beat him. The yami fruit pretty much counters everything Marco does, including flying, and BB has enough firepower to take him down due to the quake fruit and innate strength.

Marco gets beat up by marineford and ofcourse time-skip BB.


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## Orca (Oct 25, 2013)

The gorosei only said that marco is one of the only who have a *"chance"* against teach. They didn't say marco was definitely stronger than teach. And we know that Teach wasn't stopped. So the gorosei's statement has zero value here.

Sengoku was failing to stop teach. Teach has far better offensive. Plus he can negate marco's df. Teach should take it handily imo.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Oct 25, 2013)

Dawn said:


> Akainu > pre ts 2 df Blackbeard >= Marco imo
> 
> Akainu is deadly, he would have raped Blackbeard's crew. Why should you fight someone that strong if it is basically futile anyway.
> 
> Post Ts Blackbeard is a freaking Yonkou, that automatically puts him above Marco



By that notion, he would've raped Marco and Co as well

The Gorosei mentioned Marco in the same breath as the Yonkou

He's right there with them as far as I'm concerned



Luffee said:


> Why would teach fight akainu and risk losing his crewmates when he has no reason to fight him. Teach is an opportunist.



Exactly. 

If he was stronger than Marco pre-skip , then collectively the BB pirates should've been able to beat Akainu the same the way they beat WB

Teach is an oppoturnist yes, which is exactly why if he was stronger than Marco, he would've taken the opportunity to steal Akainu's fruit and given it to SJW or somebody


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## Vengeance (Oct 25, 2013)

> By that notion, he would've raped Marco and Co as well
> 
> The Gorosei mentioned Marco in the same breath as the Yonkou
> 
> He's right there with them as far as I'm concerned



Marco and the WB crew were mentioned as maybe capable of taking down pre ts Teach, that doesn't make Marco Yonkou level. In fact Marco was portrayed as inferior to the top dogs in MF.
And I meant Blackbeard's crew, not Blackbeard himself. Blackbeard's crew was chanceless against Akainu pre ts, he would have raped them.



> If he was stronger than Marco pre-skip , then collectively the BB pirates should've been able to beat Akainu the same the way they beat WB
> 
> Teach is an oppoturnist yes, which is exactly why if he was stronger than Marco, he would've taken the opportunity to steal Akainu's fruit and given it to SJW or somebody



If Blackbeard decided to take on Akainu there probably would have been no crewmember left to give the fruit to even if they succeeded...
Blackbeard + crew vs Akainu => loss of crewmembers, body parts etc and still no victory guaranteed
Blackbeard alone vs Akainu => high chance of losing 
It just wasn't worth it.
And they only killed a half-dead Whitebeard, a recovered Akainu is way harder to beat.


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## Shinthia (Oct 25, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> If Pre-Skip Gura Teach was stronger than Marco, why did he run from Akainu?
> 
> Pre -Skip Teach loses to Marco high difficulty
> 
> Post- TS it could go either way


its like saying,

If Pre-Skip Sengoku,Garp,3 Admirals & others was stronger than RH pirate, why did Sengoku stopped the war? 
or
if Kaido & co was not a fodder to Shanks & co , why they ran away (or get beaten ?) so fast from Shanks ?

see my point ?


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## Laspes (Oct 25, 2013)

Marco > Pre timeskip Teach. Teach should have become stronger than him over the timeskip.


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## Ryuksgelus (Oct 25, 2013)

Gura Teach wins.


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## Captain Altintop (Oct 25, 2013)

Marco should beat Pre skip Teach high to very high difficulty. 

Yonkou Teach beats Marco high diff.


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## Lord Melkor (Oct 26, 2013)

Captain Altintop said:


> Marco should beat Pre skip Teach high to very high difficulty.
> 
> Yonkou Teach beats Marco high diff.



I can agree with this - I would give Marco benefit of the doubt until Teach masters Gura powers a bit, then I think Teach would win.

People assuming that Marco and Teach clashed just after MF is big assumption. For what we know they may have been also fighting Big Mam, who took Fishman Island.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 27, 2013)

Pre-TS Teach loses.
Post-TS Teach wins.


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## Coruscation (Oct 27, 2013)

50/50. Marco has generally higher stats and skill across the board while Teach has a ridiculously strong DF combination and is not remotely a slouch in physicality either.


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## Meigo (Oct 31, 2013)

Pre-skip Marco wins High-diff

Post-skip no idea how strong BB and Marco are by now.

Teach is a bad match up for Marco though.


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## madao22 (Oct 31, 2013)

admiral>>> yami Teach > any yonko commander
so gura Teach mid-high difficulty


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## Tiger (Oct 31, 2013)

Teach right after gaining the Gura Gura? Marco mid or high-diff.

Teach with two years of training with it? Teach mid or low-diff.

There's a huge, huge difference. He was like a toddler with a mini uzi, very dangerous - no finesse or skill.


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## JoJo (Nov 1, 2013)

Well BB has been with WB during Roger's era. he may not have experience with it but he's most likely studied the WB's fruit. I mean it was right in front of him the whole time and he was going to steal. Getting information would only benefit him.


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## RF (Nov 1, 2013)

> Teach right after gaining the Gura Gura? Marco mid or high-diff.
> 
> Teach with two years of training with it? Teach *mid or low-diff*.



Wow. Really?


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## Mihawk (Nov 1, 2013)

Marco wins high difficulty before the timeskip.

I never got the impression that Gura Teach was as strong as any of the Emperor First Mate class pirates.
I do, however, think that Pre TS Gura Teach would be the perfect fit as the 2nd Division Commander between Marco and Jozu that Ace was never strong enough to be, though. 

 Despite the fact that Jozu has much better combat feats, while Teach had better hype.


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## Sayonara (Nov 1, 2013)

Teachs power shot up the moment he got the gura gura but he cant afford to be testing a newfound power against some one of Marcos calibre.

Post Skip , I honestly believe Teach could beat him and probably with less difficulty than anyone else alive. Teach is his worse opponent imaginable, yamiyami completely disable Marcos ability and gurgura to unleash monster attack damage. Oda once mentioned Marco would have some sort of 'limit' on his regen and I am betting BB would max him out fast.


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## Tiger (Nov 2, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Wow. Really?



Currently, yes. With two years to train his Gura Gura and Yami Yami DFs together, I don't think Marco stands much of a chance.

Marco's chance to kill Blackbeard was two, maybe one year ago. He's not doing it now. Teach's power-level rocketed over the two years, most likely more than Luffy's.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 2, 2013)

*Not a rhetorical question*

How would BBs power negate marco's regen? After he does an attack and the contact is broken marco could heal right?
Would haki do more lasting damage on marco? Or would Yami  Yami do so?


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## Lawliet (Nov 2, 2013)

^ There is a limit to Marco's regeneration. With the combination of the Yami Yami and the Gura Gura, Marco will hit that limit in no time. However, I don't think post skip Teach can low diff Marco, Marco is still a formidable pirate, a yonkou's first mate.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 2, 2013)

That didn't really answer the question but okay.

Limit huh? How much could it be? I doubt it'll be reached fast.

Also Low diff? Serious Marco underestimation. I feel he'd have given an admiral High diff pre skip.


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## Dr. White (Nov 2, 2013)

Pre skip Teach loses High diff, post beats Marco Mid - High


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 2, 2013)

As I said, Marco wins before Timeskip, even though Teach looked WB doing it for 20 years+ it's the same as look some MMA fights, you might learn one thing or another but you're not even on the same level as that guys until you try it for yourself, I think Marco can escape Blackbeard's Vortex because you know, he is first commander, and he's no novice here, he could beat Pre TS Gura Teach with high difficulty .


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## Sayonara (Nov 2, 2013)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> *Not a rhetorical question*
> 
> How would BBs power negate marco's regen? After he does an attack and the contact is broken marco could heal right?
> Would haki do more lasting damage on marco? Or would Yami  Yami do so?



Damage is damage with Marco, I don't think it matters what form in comes in or whether its coated with  haki or not afterall hes not a logia. The amount of damage is most likely the key, so its guragura thats the more likely to be important fruit here.

I would expect the yamiyami is more advantageous than haki though, with haki as soon as he gets  hurt his body automatically begins to heal but if he was caught in BB grasp the accumulated damage would build up and possibly put more of strain on Marcos power. Also what happens if BB never released him? Enel restarted his heart after he 'died' I wonder if its same for Marco.

Marco power still mystery however so everything and anything I said could be wrong.  Some one bought it up long time ago and it was valid question, why didn't marco cut his own hand off when he was cuffed? Surely that was easiest way to escape and in theory he could just grow it back. It could have just been plots sake/PIS or maybe regenerating limb was beyond his power.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 2, 2013)

Sayonara said:


> Damage is damage with Marco, I don't think it matters what form in comes in or whether its coated with  haki or not afterall hes not a logia. The amount of damage is most likely the key, so its guragura thats the more likely to be important fruit here.
> 
> Marco power still mystery, Enel restarted his heart after he 'died' I wonder if its same for Marco.



Actually not, it's like every other DF, can be bypassed by stronger Hakis, it's like Law's DF, technically he should be able to cut through everything inside Room, but we all know that he's not able to cut people with Haki like WB, Rogers and Admirals(For now that's it ), and Marco was shotted in Phoenix form by Garp and got hurt, if it's a higher Haki than his powers are minimized .


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## Sayonara (Nov 2, 2013)

OBDNewbie said:


> Actually not, it's like every other DF, can be bypassed by stronger Hakis, it's like Law's DF, technically he should be able to cut through everything inside Room, but we all know that he's not able to cut people with Haki like WB, Rogers and Admirals(For now that's it ), and Marco was shotted in Phoenix form by Garp and got hurt, if it's a higher Haki than his powers are minimized .



I wouldn't rule out that possibility, damage inflicted with haki (or seastone or yamiyami) may do more lasting damage if thats what you are implying. But with Marco theres nothing there to bypass in first place think its still the amount of damage you can hit him with , coating your attack with CoA strengthens the actual attack which is the real value in it not that it needed to bypass anything the same way you do logia.


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## Lawliet (Nov 3, 2013)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> That didn't really answer the question but okay.
> 
> Limit huh? How much could it be? I doubt it'll be reached fast.
> 
> Also Low diff? Serious Marco underestimation. I feel he'd have given an admiral High diff pre skip.



I'm not saying Teach is losing low diff, Like I said, Marco is still a yonkou's first mate and a formidable pirate. But yes, Marco's regeneration has a limit, it was stated by Oda in an interview, he actually said I'll let the Manga explain it/show you, not sure what word he used. Which means We'll either see someone using Marco's fruit reach the limit, Very unlikely cuz Oda won't off panel a character like Marco, so it the most possible meaning is we'll see Marco himself hitting that limit against someone, most obvious answer? Teach.


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## benzz15 (Nov 4, 2013)

pre-skip teach gets fucking stomped, post skip teach extreme diff


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## Urouge (Nov 4, 2013)

Teach is not getting stomped.


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## Sasuke (Nov 4, 2013)

benzz15 said:


> pre-skip teach gets fucking stomped, post skip teach extreme diff


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## Shinthia (Nov 4, 2013)

benzz15 said:


> *pre-skip teach gets fucking stomped*, post skip teach extreme diff


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## Vengeance (Nov 4, 2013)

benzz15 said:


> pre-skip teach gets fucking stomped, post skip teach extreme diff



The same Teach that held his own against Sengoku gets stomped by Marco?


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## Harard (Nov 4, 2013)

Law said:


> Teach right after gaining the Gura Gura? Marco mid or high-diff.
> 
> *Teach with two years of training with it? Teach mid or low-diff.*
> 
> There's a huge, huge difference. He was like a toddler with a mini uzi, very dangerous - no finesse or skill.



Um, yeah, no one is gonna low-diff Marco. He's portrayal against the admirals alone says it all.

WSM's strongest mate losing with low difficulty? Yeah right.


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## 2Broken (Nov 4, 2013)

Harard said:


> Um, yeah, no one is gonna low-diff Marco. He's portrayal against the admirals alone says it all.
> 
> WSM's strongest mate losing with low difficulty? Yeah right.



Don't know about low diff, that might be a bit extreme, but based off portayal current Teach mid-diffs him no problem. The guy has the strongest paramecia fruit and one of the very top logia fruit and has had time to master them for two years. 

Add on the fact he is a tank with one of the best damage soaks in the series, has monster like strength and has likely gotten more powerful and I don't see how Marco can push him to anything past mid-difficulty. Seriously he is probably the strongest character in the series that we know the abilities of right now.

I also think fresh Gura Teach takes it too, although with high difficulty. Having two such powerful fruits is more broken than I think most people realize.


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## Sentomaru (Nov 4, 2013)

Marco gets gang raped.


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## Harard (Nov 4, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Don't know about low diff, that might be a bit extreme, but based off portayal current Teach mid-diffs him no problem. The guy has the strongest paramecia fruit and one of the very top logia fruit and has had time to master them for two years.
> 
> Add on the fact he is a tank with one of the best damage soaks in the series, has monster like strength and has likely gotten more powerful and I don't see how Marco can push him to anything past mid-difficulty. Seriously he is probably the strongest character in the series that we know the abilities of right now.
> 
> I also think fresh Gura Teach takes it too, although with high difficulty. Having two such powerful fruits is more broken than I think most people realize.



He's not beating Marco with mid difficulty either. End of series Blackbeard maybe, but he's not there yet.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 4, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> The same Teach that held his own against Sengoku gets stomped by Marco?



I don't agree with Marco stomping Teach, since portrayal and feats suggest everything but that happening, but Blackbeard didn't really hold his own against Sengoku since the two never really had a real fight.


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## Mihawk (Nov 4, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Don't know about low diff, that might be a bit extreme,* but based off portayal* current Teach mid-diffs him no problem. *The guy has the strongest paramecia fruit and one of the very top logia fruit and has had time to master them for two years.
> 
> Add on the fact he is a tank with one of the best damage soaks in the series, has monster like strength and has likely gotten more powerful and I don't see how Marco can push him to anything past mid-difficulty.* Seriously he is probably the strongest character in the series that we know the abilities of right now.
> 
> I also think fresh Gura Teach takes it too, although with high difficulty. Having two such powerful fruits is more broken than I think most people realize.



I don't see how any of the bolded parts are arguments or reasons for why Blackbeard could take down Marco with medium difficulty. It's just a ton of fanboyism and assumption that Blackbeard got far stronger after the timeskip.

Also Pre TS Gura Teach is not beating Marco, full stop. Someone who even Garp saw as still a novice compared to Whitebeard despite taking his fruit is not defeating the Right Hand and First Division Commander of Whitebeard. 

Also:

1. Blackbeard stated that he and his crew were not ready to fight Shanks and Red Haired Pirates.

2. Blackbeard and his crew were also not ready for Akainu, and ran away from the Admiral.

While:

1. Marco and the remnants were still held in high esteem as a crew of Yonko calibre. 

2. Marco faced Akainu head on.


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## Doma (Nov 4, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't agree with Marco stomping Teach, since portrayal and feats suggest everything but that happening, but Blackbeard didn't really hold his own against Sengoku since the two never really had a real fight.



Their fight was just off-paneled. We see Sengoku after the war covered in bandages and Teach was the only person he fought. We also get word of mouth from some scared marine saying something along the lines of "over there Sengoku and Blackbeard are fighting, over here it's the Whitebeard pirates." 



Doflαmingo said:


> Pre TS Gura Teach is not beating Marco, full stop. Someone who even Garp saw as still a novice compared to Whitebeard despite taking his fruit is not defeating the Right Hand and First Division Commander of Whitebeard.
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...



Garp was talking about his usage of the Gura, not about Teach in general. Not like his opinion matters anyways. Him and Sengoku both couldn't do shit to stop Blackbeard.

1. How is Blackbeard not Yonkou calibre too? Only the Yonkou and *maybe* Marco could stop him. But Marco clearly couldn't because BB's still alive after everything he's done to their crew.

2. I don't understand this argument. We see Blackbeard was perfectly fine with fighting Sengoku. Even after Garp showed up he kept talking shit. Why would he then be scared shitless at the sight of Akainu?

What happened was Akainu screwed up their plans. They needed to get into the NW as soon as possible to capitalize on the fact that they knew exactly which islands WB owned that were now undefended. Fighting Akainu in some week-long battle would have messed up Blackbeard's plans completely. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose.


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## Mihawk (Nov 4, 2013)

> Garp was talking about his usage of the Gura, not about Teach in general.



I know, and that his usage of the Gura was still that of a novice's. That means that freshly obtaining the fruit still does not give Teach the necessary jump in power to take down Marco. His obviously got stronger than his Yami Yami version, but I think people blow the jump in power out of proportion. 



> Not like his opinion matters anyways. Him and Sengoku both couldn't do shit to stop Blackbeard.



Oh but it does matter. Garp called him a novice in that regard of using the Gura Gura, and Teach himself admitted that he still needed time to master the fruit. Also keep in mind that while Sengoku was in bandages after the war, he was holding back the entire Blackbeard crew, and not just Teach alone. 




> 1. How is Blackbeard not Yonkou calibre too? Only the Yonkou and *maybe* Marco could stop him. But Marco clearly couldn't because BB's still alive after everything he's done to their crew.



After the timeskip, he is a Yonko by canon, but before the timeskip, as in fresh after Marineford, they were not already a Yonko calibre crew. They were simply remarked to have the potential to be one by the Gorosei, whom based the prediction off of the fact that Teach has Whitebeard's fruit, and has remarkable knowledge of Whitebeard's former territory. They were remarking on his potential at the time, not that they were already a Yonko level crew before the timeskip, especially when Blackbeard admitted that he was not ready for Shanks. 

All of this is of course, *concerning Teach before the timeskip*, and not the current Yonko version.

Also, Marco wasn't the only one who was not able to stop him. None of the Yonko were able to, despite the fact that he was a potential growing threat.



> 2. I don't understand this argument. We see Blackbeard was perfectly fine with fighting Sengoku. Even after Garp showed up he kept talking shit. Why would he then be scared shitless at the sight of Akainu?



One of Blackbeard's key character traits is his arrogance. It's not hard to believe that he would be talking trash while he's getting power drunk from the fresh power of the Gura Gura. Before the fight got off panelled, we even saw Sengoku taking on the entire crew just fine before Garp showed up to back him, sending shockwaves against all its members. 

Blackbeard also talked trash to a hollow, dying, sluggish, shell of a Whitebeard constantly. That didn't stop Whitebeard, who was verging into the realm of death, from destroying him fairly easily. 

The possession of the Gura Gura no mi in MF gives Teach a visible increase in destructive power and ups his AoE stats considerably, however because he only obtained it moments ago and had not mastered it, he still has the same physical stats as he did before obtaining the fruit. The only difference it made at that time was that it guaranteed his frightening potential in the future, and gave him increased destructive capacity. *During that point in time*, his combat prowess and physical stats remain the same.

2 Years later is obviously a different story.



> What happened was Akainu screwed up their plans. They needed to get into the NW as soon as possible to capitalize on the fact that they knew exactly which islands WB owned that were now undefended. Fighting Akainu in some week-long battle would have messed up Blackbeard's plans completely. He had nothing to gain and everything to lose.



I also agree with this, so concession made to this point.

 Blackbeard stated nonetheless that he was not ready to get involved with Akainu just yet, which not only tells us what your telling me, but also tells us that Teach was not ready to take Akainu in a fight yet. That the odds were not stacked on his side. 

My opinion remains unchanged in relation to the Battledome topic.

IMO:

Marco VS Pre Timeskip Blackbeard with the Gura Gura no mi: Marco high difficulty

Marco VS Post Timeskip Blackbeard with the Gura Gura no mi: Blackbeard high difficulty


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## 2Broken (Nov 4, 2013)

I'm confused as to why people think Marco cannot be mid-diffed by current Blackbeard. How do those who say it would take anymore than that see the fight going? And do you guys think Prime Whitebeard couldn't mid-diff Marco?


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## Doma (Nov 4, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> I know, and that his usage of the Gura was still that of a novice's. That means that freshly obtaining the fruit still does not give Teach the necessary jump in power to take down Marco. His obviously got stronger than his Yami Yami version, but I think people blow the jump in power out of proportion.



So why do you believe Teach was drastically weaker than Marco in the first place? This isn't a point I can counter otherwise. He was inexperienced with the fruit yes, but I don't think the gap between them was so small that the massive jump in power he got was still not enough to surpass Marco.



> After the timeskip, he is a Yonko by canon, but before the timeskip, as in fresh after Marineford, they were not already a Yonko calibre crew. They were simply remarked to have the potential to be one by the Gorosei, whom based the prediction off of the fact that Teach has Whitebeard's fruit, and has remarkable knowledge of Whitebeard's former territory. They were remarking on his potential at the time, not that they were already a Yonko level crew before the timeskip, especially when Blackbeard admitted that he was not ready for Shanks.
> 
> All of this is of course, *concerning Teach before the timeskip*, and not the current Yonko version.



Head start or not, if nobody can stop you but a Yonkou. Then that's a Yonkou level crew. Jinbe said Blackbeard took the territories and defended them well enough that he is now known as a Yonkou. Solely having a head start doesn't do that. If he wasn't as strong as Yonkou in the first place, between three Yonkou and and who knows how many other contenders, he would have lost those territories in a heartbeat. 

And not being strong enough to defeat Shanks doesn't mean he's not as strong as the other Yonkou. Aokiji wasn't strong enough to defeat Akainu but he's still considered admiral level.



> Also, Marco wasn't the only one who was not able to stop him. None of the Yonko were able to, despite the fact that he was a potential growing threat.



So then how can you argue him and his crew weren't every bit as strong as a Yonkou? 



> One of Blackbeard's key character traits is his arrogance. It's not hard to believe that he would be talking trash while he's getting power drunk from the fresh power of the Gura Gura. Before the fight got off panelled, we even saw Sengoku taking on the entire crew just fine before Garp showed up to back him, sending shockwaves against all its members.



Sengoku hit them when they were off-guard. Other than that, they weren't shown to be helping Blackbeard at all. In fact, they were whining that they could barely stand with Blackbeard making quakes everywhere. Besides, how do you explain half  the crew being too weak to fight Ace but somehow of any help in fight with Garp and Sengoku? Even when the Level 6ers joined, Shiryuu was only as strong as Magellan. Still not nearly strong enough to be much help.



> Blackbeard also talked trash to a hollow, dying, sluggish, shell of a Whitebeard constantly. That didn't stop Whitebeard, who was verging into the realm of death, from destroying him fairly easily.



This was due to Blackbeard's arrogance. Whitebeard himself said that his weakness is being too overconfident. BB is too arrogant to think about his opponent fighting back. He didn't think WB would be nearly as strong as he still was. He though he would just keel over. But even so, he took the attack quite easily. 



> The possession of the Gura Gura no mi in MF gives Teach a visible increase in destructive power and ups his AoE stats considerably, however because he only obtained it moments ago and had not mastered it, he still has the same physical stats as he did before obtaining the fruit. The only difference it made at that time was that it guaranteed his frightening potential in the future, and gave him increased destructive capacity. *During that point in time*, his combat prowess and physical stats remain the same.



We don't even know the true extent of Teach's physical stats. We know he's strong enough without any DF aid to nearly KO Ace in two punches. They weren't even special named punches or anything, and now he has the Gura greatly increasing his punches. And we know he easily took hits from Whitebeard and Sengoku despite taking extra damage. I don't see where you're coming to the conclusion that BB is physically too weak to deal with Marco.



> I also agree with this, so concession made to this point.
> 
> Blackbeard stated nonetheless that he was not ready to get involved with Akainu just yet, which not only tells us what your telling me, but also tells us that Teach was not ready to take Akainu in a fight yet. That the odds were not stacked on his side.



Blackbeard said he wasn't ready to fight Akainu yet, because of his plans. But the original point was never whether or not Blackbeard is stronger than Akainu. It was that Blackbeard was scared to fight him, which he sure as hell isn't if he' s alright with taking on Sengoku/Garp.


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## Mihawk (Nov 4, 2013)

> So why do you believe Teach was drastically weaker than Marco in the first place? This isn't a point I can counter otherwise. He was inexperienced with the fruit yes, but I don't think the gap between them was so small that the massive jump in power he got was still not enough to surpass Marco.



I don't think the gap between Yami Teach and Gura Teach before the timeskip was small either, but I do not think it was large enough that Teach could literally go from having a hard time against Ace, to being stronger than Marco, who is far stronger than Ace. 

Marco has far better feats, as far as before the timeskip is concerned. The only debatable aspect is the department of durability.





> Head start or not, if nobody can stop you but a Yonkou. Then that's a Yonkou level crew. Jinbe said Blackbeard took the territories and defended them well enough that he is now known as a Yonkou. Solely having a head start doesn't do that. If he wasn't as strong as Yonkou in the first place, between three Yonkou and and who knows how many other contenders, he would have lost those territories in a heartbeat.



I don't know if your getting what I'm trying to say here. I'm not talking about the interval of time and process which he took to become a Yonko. 

I'm talking about him as he was in Marineford. 

Two years is a long time. With his potential, it's long enough for him to jump from being weaker than Marco, to being Yonko level material. 

We have no specifics. Only that the mastery of Whitebeard's fruit and the knowledge of his territories were the main factors of Blackbeard's rise to power during the two years. It's obvious that between Marineford and the current timeframe, he simply became stronger and stronger. 




> And not being strong enough to defeat Shanks doesn't mean he's not as strong as the other Yonkou. Aokiji wasn't strong enough to defeat Akainu but he's still considered admiral level.



That's not a cohesive comparison, as Aokiji has the feat of at least fighting Akainu for 10 long days, equally dividing the climate of one half of the island, and causing the latter grave injuries before falling. The fact that they were so close and virtually equal, is the reason why Aokiji is considered to be Admiral level, and on the same level as Akainu, even if the latter edged him out.

 That is nothing like the interaction shown between Teach and Shanks in Marineford. The MF version of Teach outright admitted inferiority to Shanks and said that his crew was not ready for being involved in a drawn out fight with them. 





> So then how can you argue him and his crew weren't every bit as strong as a Yonkou?



Because there are other factors to be accounted for. 

What if the remnants were busy handling affairs in their own territories and managing the chaos in their part of the New World after WB's death, as well as having the restructuring of their hierarchy after the war to handle? 

What if another Yonko crew would take advantage of one other Yonko crew leaving their base to attack Teach and his crew to seize their territory and gain a strategic vantage point in the eternal stalemate between the Yonko? 




> Sengoku hit them when they were off-guard. Other than that,* they weren't shown to be helping Blackbeard at all*. In fact, they were whining that they could barely stand with Blackbeard making quakes everywhere.



The rest of the fight was off paneled too. We have no idea how much they truly contributed to the battle. However, just as how Akainu VS the WB Remnants ended with a single panel of Akainu having a face off with the Commanders, the rest of the fight was also not shown. 




> Besides, how do you explain half  the crew being too weak to fight Ace but somehow of any help in fight with Garp and Sengoku? Even when the Level 6ers joined, Shiryuu was only as strong as Magellan. Still not nearly strong enough to be much help.



Well doesn't that simply strengthen the argument that they were not a Yonko calibre crew yet before the timeskip? If their second strongest member was only as strong as Magellan, and if the rest of them were damn near soloed by Ace, doesn't that tell you the Blackbeard Pirates were not strong enough to be a Yonko crew before the timeskip?


The point is that Sengoku's shockwave was still able to encompass the entire crew and damage them. The rest of the fight was off panelled, but one can't possibly arrive to the conclusion that Blackbeard's crew would just stand there while the fight continued, despite being there with him and backing him. It was the Blackbeard Pirates VS Sengoku and Garp(who was not injured besides the opening he gave to Luffy which sent him to the ground, and was not seen with bandages after the war). We can't call either assumption a fact as the fight was not shown to us, but the logical conclusion that Sengoku's injuries were caused by Blackbeard + crew seems more reasonable to me. 





> This was due to Blackbeard's arrogance. Whitebeard himself said that his weakness is being too overconfident. BB is too arrogant to think about his opponent fighting back. He didn't think WB would be nearly as strong as he still was. He though he would just keel over. But even so, he took the attack quite easily.



The fight literally ended in several panels and over 2-3 pages. By the end of it, Teach was cut down by WB's glaive, and had his head quaked. Keep in mind that this is a Whitebeard who was already a walking dead man, and was at his worst possible condition with half his face missing and his body riddled with injuries caused by canons, footsoldiers, and Admirals. Yet still, Teach was defeated with relatively low difficulty. The only thing that made his performance against Whitebeard during that skirmish impressive, was the fact that he managed to even survive the quake, a testament to his durability. However, even then, Whitebeard was in horrible condition, and the size, scope, and scale of that quake was visibly dwindled down compared to his other ones. 

Not to mention that Teach was so desperate when he was defeated, he had to call on his crew to help him gang up on Whitebeard just to send him off. 




> We don't even know the true extent of Teach's physical stats. *We know he's strong enough without any DF aid* to nearly KO Ace in two punches.



Except the only way he got to nearly break Ace's neck was the fact that he managed to draw him in with his devil fruit powers in the first place. He wouldn't have even gotten such an opening if he did not use Kurozou, taking advantage of Ace's lack of knowledge on his abilities. And he couldn't break his neck anyways, even if he hurt him. 

Blackbeard's win over Ace was shown to be anything but a comfortable one. We have Ace roasting him on two occasions in the fight while maintaining composure, and Teach punching and nearly breaking his neck on two occasions as well. Then we have them both use their respective elements which engulfed one half of the island each, in a symbolic clash which showed that they were both close in power, despite the fact that Teach came out on top. 

Teach's win over Ace was a high diff battle. 

agree that he excels in the department of durability though.


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## Mihawk (Nov 4, 2013)

> They weren't even special named punches or anything, and now he has the Gura greatly increasing his punches. And we know he easily took hits from Whitebeard and Sengoku despite taking extra damage. I don't see where you're coming to the conclusion that BB is physically too weak to deal with Marco.



Yet Teach was still burnt and wounded in the exchange as well. He had no reason to hold back his punch, other than the fact that he was forced out of using his full force because Ace drove two lances through his chest, saving himself in the process out of Teach's upperhand in the circumstance at that time. Also named attacks don't necessarily always equate to a superior attack. Mihawk is a pure physical fighter, and we don't see him barking out any named attacks. He sent an unnamed slash to Whitebeard, which we know is a high end attack based on its target, yet it wasn't named. Garp doesn't name his attacks either. He managed to send Marco crashing down with an unnamed punch which bruised his face. The punch was obviously very powerful, and not just a nonchalant jab.  Whitebeard doesn't have a single named attack that we know of. He didn't name his attack when he quaked Akainu on the back of his skull and later into his ribcage. Yet we know that his attacks on Akainu were anything but casual or held back. His island tilter was not named, yet it is the most impressive feat he has in his moveset when it comes to pure AoE. Point is, not naming your attacks=/=the attack not being full powered or at least on the higher end. It seems that Blackbeard only names his Yami Yami techniques. 

I'm not saying that he was physically too weak to deal with Marco. Perhaps I should have worded it differently instead of using the proverbial "physical stats" term. Let me rephrase.

I'm saying that before the timeskip, Teach did not have the all around, well rounded combat stats of an Admiral or Yonko level fighter, to go along with his new devil fruit, except perhaps durability. I expect him to be at such a level and pedestal during or after the timeskip as he is a confirmed Yonko now, but not during the Marineford timeframe/arc.

Marco's defense seems to be superior to Teach's durability before the timeskip, as he was able to shrug off Garp's punch, casually tank a barrage of lasers from Kizaru, and withstood against Akainu's magma at full power, and while Teach's durability feats of taking Whitebeard's quake and Sengoku's shockwave are also impressive, you have to consider the fact that Whitebeard's quake on him was not at full power, and in both instances, Blackbeard did not emerge unscathed and was still injured, needing to get back up, whereas Marco took full powered attacks from Admiral level fighters rather easily without being harmed,  and his hand to hand combat skills were also better based on feats, as he was able to send Kizaru flying back to a wall with his kick, effectively pushing the Admiral's position back, and was able to send Aokiji a great distance away into another wall with a kick. When Teach was caught off guard by Luffy, he was sent flying by a Jet Pistol and roll around the ground crying in pain. When Marco was caught off guard by Kizaru behind him, despite having his regen off, he took several lasers continuously and still kept going. When it comes to all around combat feats, Marco>MF Blackbeard. 






> *Blackbeard said he wasn't ready to fight Akainu yet, because of his plans.* But the original point was never whether or not Blackbeard is stronger than Akainu. It was that Blackbeard was scared to fight him, which he sure as hell isn't if he' s alright with taking on Sengoku/Garp.



He didn't say anything about his plans. All we know was that they couldn't get a warship because Akainu stood atop it.

Blackbeard's exact words as they fled were, "Damn it!!! I'm not looking to get involved into that kind of stuff just yet!" He didn't say or reveal anything about his plans for the short or long term. But yes, I can agree with you that he could have chosen to avoid Akainu because he would lose his newly gained crew members otherwise. 


Marco's feats, hype, and portrayal are better in every aspect than Marineford Teach's. 

As things stand currently, it's a different story.


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## trance (Nov 4, 2013)

Fucking walls of text.


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## Rob (Nov 4, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> If Pre-Skip Gura Teach was stronger than Marco, why did he run from Akainu?



wat 

Akainu>Maco... 

As for thread... 

Marco beats Pre-Skip Teach, presumably. (Teach is a fucking tank though... his gravitational pull would be something Marco could have a hard time with)

Post-Skip Teach could possibly win. Yonkou/Gura hype.


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## Doma (Nov 5, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> I don't think the gap between Yami Teach and Gura Teach before the timeskip was small either, but I do not think it was large enough that Teach could literally go from having a hard time against Ace, to being stronger than Marco, who is far stronger than Ace.
> 
> Marco has far better feats, as far as before the timeskip is concerned. The only debatable aspect is the department of durability.



I think Ace is a lot stronger than people give him credit for. So BB having trouble with Ace doesn't change anything for me. 

What feats are you talking about? Not dying when an admiral attacks you? 



> I don't know if your getting what I'm trying to say here. I'm not talking about the interval of time and process which he took to become a Yonko.
> 
> I'm talking about him as he was in Marineford.
> 
> ...



The problem is you're under the assumption BB took the entire two years to become a Yonkou. He didn't, Jinbe flat out told us he conquered those islands almost immediately. He had an advantage because of his prior knowledge, but you can't completely wave this away. The Yonkou are considered the strongest pirates on the seas solely because they own the most territories. BB wouldn't have been able to conquer those lands as fast as he did if he wasn't already on the level of a Yonkou.



> That's not a cohesive comparison, as Aokiji has the feat of at least fighting Akainu for 10 long days, equally dividing the climate of one half of the island, and causing the latter grave injuries before falling. The fact that they were so close and virtually equal, is the reason why Aokiji is considered to be Admiral level, and on the same level as Akainu, even if the latter edged him out.
> 
> That is nothing like the interaction shown between Teach and Shanks in Marineford. The MF version of Teach outright admitted inferiority to Shanks and said that his crew was not ready for being involved in a drawn out fight with them.



I wasn't comparing the gap between Aokiji/Akainu to be similar to the gap between Teach/Shanks. My point is you keep claiming Teach isn't Yonkou level solely because he admitted to being weaker than one of the Yonkou. The Yonkou aren't all perfectly equal in strength. You can be weaker than one of the Yonkou but still strong enough to be one.



> Because there are other factors to be accounted for.
> 
> What if the remnants were busy handling affairs in their own territories and managing the chaos in their part of the New World after WB's death, as well as having the restructuring of their hierarchy after the war to handle?
> 
> What if another Yonko crew would take advantage of one other Yonko crew leaving their base to attack Teach and his crew to seize their territory and gain a strategic vantage point in the eternal stalemate between the Yonko?



Taking out Blackbeard should have been their number one priority. For revenge, and for the sake of protecting their territories. But the fact is Marco and co. were unable to stop Blackbeard's rise to power. Neither were the rest of the Yonkou. 

They leave their territories all the time. WB moved his entire force to MF and no one tried taking his territories until after they knew he was dead. BB's advantage would have been completely moot if everyone was grabbing pieces days before he even got into the NW. Shanks also moved his main crew to MF to stop the war but he's still a Yonkou. 



> The rest of the fight was off paneled too. We have no idea how much they truly contributed to the battle. However, just as how Akainu VS the WB Remnants ended with a single panel of Akainu having a face off with the Commanders, the rest of the fight was also not shown.



How much could they have truly contributed? How well do you see his crew doing against Garp or Sengoku individually? 




> Well doesn't that simply strengthen the argument that they were not a Yonko calibre crew yet before the timeskip? If their second strongest member was only as strong as Magellan, and if the rest of them were damn near soloed by Ace, doesn't that tell you the Blackbeard Pirates were not strong enough to be a Yonko crew before the timeskip?



Most Yonkou's have very few top-tiers in their crew to begin with. Blackbeard was definitely holding his crew together for a while there. But I'm mainly thinking of Teach when I say they're a Yonkou calibre crew. 



> The point is that Sengoku's shockwave was still able to encompass the entire crew and damage them. The rest of the fight was off panelled, but one can't possibly arrive to the conclusion that Blackbeard's crew would just stand there while the fight continued, despite being there with him and backing him. It was the Blackbeard Pirates VS Sengoku and Garp(who was not injured besides the opening he gave to Luffy which sent him to the ground, and was not seen with bandages after the war). We can't call either assumption a fact as the fight was not shown to us, but the logical conclusion that Sengoku's injuries were caused by Blackbeard + crew seems more reasonable to me.



Blackbeard's quakes hit all of Marineford but that doesn't mean everyone on the island was involved in their fight. 

And my main argument here, is that regardless of whether or not BB had help from his crew they wouldn't be much help anyways. And your arguments aren't making sense here. You can't claim Teach doesn't have a Yonkou level crew but at the same time say they were the only reason he was able to fight off two extremely strong characters at the same time.

Also, we didn't see Garp at all after the war so who knows what condition he was in.





> The fight literally ended in several panels and over 2-3 pages. By the end of it, Teach was cut down by WB's glaive, and had his head quaked. Keep in mind that this is a Whitebeard who was already a walking dead man, and was at his worst possible condition with half his face missing and his body riddled with injuries caused by canons, footsoldiers, and Admirals. Yet still, Teach was defeated with relatively low difficulty. The only thing that made his performance against Whitebeard during that skirmish impressive, was the fact that he managed to even survive the quake, a testament to his durability. However, even then, Whitebeard was in horrible condition, and the size, scope, and scale of that quake was visibly dwindled down compared to his other ones.



You're completely over exaggerating to make Teach look as bad as possible here. Teach was not that injured from the fight but you're making it out to seem he almost died. And while Whitebeard was on the verge of death, there was no indication that his attacks weren't as powerful as always. His opening attack on Teach was in fact a quake just as powerful as the ones he'd been using the entire time. And I'm not talking about the quake BB kurouzu'd. WB used another quake before that one but people always seem to forget about it because Teach dodged it.

And we didn't see the full scale of that attack so who knows what size it was or how powerful. We didn't see the full scale of half dead WB's off-guard attack on Akainu either but I've never once seen anybody try to argue it was weak.



> Not to mention that Teach was so desperate when he was defeated, he had to call on his crew to help him gang up on Whitebeard just to send him off.


 
You keep saying it but Teach was never defeated. He was not KO'd or even close to being unable to fight back. The whole point of the scene was to show that Blackbeard is a coward and is not a real D. He got scared when he realized WB was still really strong. And WB was still really strong. Not that long ago he completely owned Akainu. The first hit may have been off-guard but that second hit still laid him out. Not to mention this is still Yami Teach we're talking about. 



> Except the only way he got to nearly break Ace's neck was the fact that he managed to draw him in with his devil fruit powers in the first place. He wouldn't have even gotten such an opening if he did not use Kurozou, taking advantage of Ace's lack of knowledge on his abilities. And he couldn't break his neck anyways, even if he hurt him.



That's just what you believe. He fought that way because he had the DF. We don't know how his other physical stats are because the DF replaced his need to run around the battlefield.



Doflαmingo said:


> Yet Teach was still burnt and wounded in the exchange as well. He had no reason to hold back his punch, other than the fact that he was forced out of using his full force because Ace drove two lances through his chest, saving himself in the process out of Teach's upperhand in the circumstance at that time. Also named attacks don't necessarily always equate to a superior attack. Mihawk is a pure physical fighter, and we don't see him barking out any named attacks. He sent an unnamed slash to Whitebeard, which we know is a high end attack based on its target, yet it wasn't named. Garp doesn't name his attacks either. He managed to send Marco crashing down with an unnamed punch which bruised his face. The punch was obviously very powerful, and not just a nonchalant jab.  Whitebeard doesn't have a single named attack that we know of. He didn't name his attack when he quaked Akainu on the back of his skull and later into his ribcage. Yet we know that his attacks on Akainu were anything but casual or held back. His island tilter was not named, yet it is the most impressive feat he has in his moveset when it comes to pure AoE. Point is, not naming your attacks=/=the attack not being full powered or at least on the higher end. It seems that Blackbeard only names his Yami Yami techniques.



 My point was that they were just regular punches. Named or not, Garp is the only person who wasn't clearly using some technique that required skill. Even if Sanji never named his kicks there's still a clear difference between regular kicks and what he's doing.


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## Doma (Nov 5, 2013)

> I'm not saying that he was physically too weak to deal with Marco. Perhaps I should have worded it differently instead of using the proverbial "physical stats" term. Let me rephrase.
> 
> I'm saying that before the timeskip, Teach did not have the all around, well rounded combat stats of an Admiral or Yonko level fighter, to go along with his new devil fruit, except perhaps durability. I expect him to be at such a level and pedestal during or after the timeskip as he is a confirmed Yonko now, but not during the Marineford timeframe/arc.



Again, you can't prove this. Teach fought a certain way because his DF allowed him to. Even without the DF, the only thing you can argue that he lacked was movement speed.




> Marco's defense seems to be superior to Teach's durability before the timeskip, as he was able to shrug off Garp's punch, casually tank a barrage of lasers from Kizaru, and withstood against Akainu's magma at full power, and while Teach's durability feats of taking Whitebeard's quake and Sengoku's shockwave are also impressive, you have to consider the fact that Whitebeard's quake on him was not at full power, and in both instances, Blackbeard did not emerge unscathed and was still injured, needing to get back up, whereas Marco took full powered attacks from Admiral level fighters rather easily without being harmed,  and his hand to hand combat skills were also better based on feats, as he was able to send Kizaru flying back to a wall with his kick, effectively pushing the Admiral's position back, and was able to send Aokiji a great distance away into another wall with a kick. When Teach was caught off guard by Luffy, he was sent flying by a Jet Pistol and roll around the ground crying in pain. When Marco was caught off guard by Kizaru behind him, despite having his regen off, he took several lasers continuously and still kept going. When it comes to all around combat feats, Marco>MF Blackbeard.



These aren't fair comparisons at all. You can't say Marco is stronger than Teach because Teach got injured from attacks that Marco could regenerate. By that logic, Marco>WB because he took Kizaru's strongest attack while WB was getting pierced by mere finger lasers left and right.

As for hand to hand combat, you don't make any sense. How can Marco be impressive for sending them flying when Luffy who was so much weaker than Blackbeard is able to send him flying too? If you're just trying to say Teach is weak because Luffy hurt him. Then Marco is even weaker because he did less damage to an admiral than Luffy did to Garp. And if you argue it doesn't count because Garp didn't try to defend himself, then his attack on Teach doesn't count because Blackbeard wasn't defending himself either. 

And no, Marco was completely destroyed by those lasers. Him getting hit by two lasers to his stomach was the reason Jozu got distracted and lost his arm in the first place. Not to mention that was before he even got cuffed. Two more lasers after getting cuffed and we don't see him do anything again until after Ace is dead.


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