# The thread where Troyse22 addressed everything regarding Kisame/Samehada



## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

Since i'm arguably one of the most controversial posters in the NBD, known for controversial statements regarding Kisame and Samehada, i'd like a thread dedicated to where you guys can ask me anything regarding Kisame or Samehada, be it absorption capabilities, their story, or their overall capabilities in combat.

I will respond to as many serious posts as possible, including those on my ignore list.

I want to officially address everything in a thread people will recognize and they can refer to and see what I think about regarding certain things.


This is not a thread for Kisame vs X, if you want to ask me how Kisame counters X's Jutsu, then feel free, but this is a discussion thread regarding Kisame's abilities rather than how Kisame does against certain Shinobi. If you want to ask me if I think Kisame beats X, fine, but I cannot guarantee I will elaborate if there's other questions that need to be answered.

If you don't want to partake, then keep your negative comments to yourself

So feel free to ask away, keep it civil guys 

(I apologize in advance if this needs to be redirected mods, but I feel it's relevant to the Battledome, and I get tired of having to repeat myself, this way I can copy/paste my response to certain things i've addressed in this thread to other threads in the future)

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1 | Creative 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 4, 2017)

give me a 1-10 ranking for each category for Kisame...

Speed:
Taijutsu:
Chakra:
Intelligence:
Strength:
Durability:

And let's say Kisame lost Samehada, where would you rank him?

Naruto 
Hashirama 
Tobirama 
Minato 
Muu
Gengetsu 
AAA
Onoki (old)
Tsunade 
AAAA
Mei
Gaara
Rasa 
Hiruzen(old)

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> give me a 1-10 ranking for each category for Kisame...
> 
> Speed:
> Taijutsu:
> ...



I will be including "sub categories" as some of these are too broad

Speed: 7, he has nothing suggesting he's on par with the 9's and 10's (Sasuke, Naruto, AAAA, Minato etc)
Reflexes: 9-10: Can react to instantaneous teleportation. Bee has reacted to Minato's, Kisame reacted to Bee, logic dictates he should be able to react to Minato.
Chakra: 9, with Kurama and Juubi's and JJ's being the 10's
Intelligence: 6, he's not like the real intelligent Shinobi in "sciency" stuff (Oro and Kabuto would be 10's for example)
Analytical abiltiies: 9, on par with Itachi, Kakashi etc. (Shikamaru and Shikaku, in my mind, being the only 10's in the manga) He was able to figure out exactly what Bee was trying to do with a simple motion. Has proven himself more than capable at deducing his opponents capabilities and intent very quickly.
Taijutsu: 7, i'm hesitant to put him higher, as he has no Taijutsu feats, but he's a primarily CQC fighter with a very powerful Ninjutsu kit, he should be able to hold his own against some stronger Taijutsu based Shinobi (Kimimaro, Tsunade, Base Gai etc)
Strength: 8-9, Has strength on par with Tsunade and Sages, with Rikudo enhanced Shinobi being at 10. Able to carry around a gargantuan sword endlessly and create mini craters just by putting his strength into a sword slash
Durability: 8, has roughly V2 Susanoo durability levels to blunt force. Kisame's weakness in durability is piercing power. But he's proven more than capable at withstanding brute force and surviving, recovering or outright tanking. V2 Susanoo would crumble under Hirudora for example.
Bee almost cut Sasuke in half from his midsection with a V1 Lariat, whereas Kisame suffered considerably less damage from a superior version (V2 Lariat) and stayed conscious and was able to speak, despite having his entire chest and stomach areas blown open. 



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> And let's say Kisame lost Samehada, where would you rank him?
> 
> Naruto
> Hashirama
> ...



Naruto
Hashirama
Tobirama
Minato
Muu
Onoki
AAA
Kisame


He drops considerably, but his Ninjutsu arsenal, massive chakra reserves and general CQC skill can make up for it, not nearly as much as Samehada could though.

He loses all regeneration and a lot of chakra absorption capabilities.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Infernal Imp (Feb 4, 2017)

Why would fusing with Samehada render Kisame immune to genjutsu?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 4, 2017)

Infernal Imp said:


> Why would fusing with Samehada render Kisame immune to genjutsu?



When merged with Samehada, Kisame inherits some of its abilities (as seen when he made contact with Bee and was absorbing chakra out of him) and of course, his shark like appearance. He also inherits spikes that protrude from his shoulders, a trait which Samehada possesses and Kisame can also sense chakra through his skin when merged.

Samehada is a relatively simple but complex being, with presumably no brain, no heart, eyes ears (Although it can evidently hear, as it responds to praise from Bee) Kisame was able to physically be inside Samhada *insert rape face here* and we didn't see any organs whatsoever.

Genjutsu works by effecting the chakra's nervous system, Samehada doesn't have one. Kisame should inherit this to some degree and not be effected by Genjutsu.

Edit: Genjutsu works by effecting the *TARGETS *nervous system


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I will be including "sub categories" as some of these are too broad
> 
> Speed: 7, he has nothing suggesting he's on par with the 9's and 10's (Sasuke, Naruto, AAAA, Minato etc)
> Reflexes: 9-10: Can react to instantaneous teleportation. Bee has reacted to Minato's, Kisame reacted to Bee, logic dictates he should be able to react to Minato.
> ...




I respect most of your statements about Kisame, I can tell you took time into thinking how powerful you think Kisame actually is and comparing Kisame with other shinobi and there capabilities. 

Now you say Kisame isn't as fast as Minato, but his reaction is 9-10? Now 10 would be reacting to 8 gates Gai so that's wrong 8 would be reacting to Minato point blank range and js Killer-Bee was younger the time Minato and him clashed so Bee's reaction time is most likely better due to more experience so I would give Kisame a 7 in reaction time. Now speed... you say Minato, AAAA is 9 to 10, while Kisame is a 7 now I'm not taking that away at all but in a battle you can obviously react to something but.... to move away/block/dodge a enemies attack that is ranked 9-10 in speed...reaction starts to go down fast in terms of importance...you have to be able to physically move before the enemy tags you. Now chakra...he's not a 9 lmao you saying Kurama is 10 should tell you something in terms of comparison..I would say he's an 8 that's like being on pair with a jinchuuriki. Now analytical abilities, ok yes Kisame figured out what Bee was trying to do but that doesn't mean he can figure out what other shinobi are trying to do in a battle situation and killer bee isn't the smartest person in the world lmao and you comparing him to Itachi's analytical skills isn't accurate because Itachi consistently shows it in almost all of his battles and he has outsmarted some of the most smartest characters in naruto...Kakashi, Sasuke, Orochimaru... Now Taijutsu , like you said Kisame hasn't shown feats with it...so you saying that Kisame can hold his own against shinobi that excels in Taijutsu is not consistent. Now strength... you said Kisame is a 8-9 on pair with Tsunade and SAGES because he holds a "gargantuan sword" and can slash mini craters with...it dosent mean he's on the level of tsunade and sage .... Tsunade has consistently shown that she's much stronger then the average shinobi while Kisame with his "gargantuan sword" got blocked by Asuma and is no where near consistent showing his strength that is supposedly on pair with Tsunade and with the Sage part... your basically saying that he can lift a freaking giant rhino up at least 50 feet into the air...if that was the case then we would've seen Kisame throwing shinobi left and right. Now durability, I'm not gonna say anything about the V2 Susanoo because that would take a while to explain but can he take as much damage as Tsunade, Sakura(War Ark) and Konan's paper form and heal from it and act like it never happened?...that should tell you how much durability Kisame actually haves and the majority of shinobi dosent use blunt force in battle they use piercing power...


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> When merged with Samehada, Kisame inherits some of its abilities (as seen when he made contact with Bee and was absorbing chakra out of him) and of course, his shark like appearance. He also inherits spikes that protrude from his shoulders, a trait which Samehada possesses and Kisame can also sense chakra through his skin when merged.
> 
> Samehada is a relatively simple but complex being, with presumably no brain, no heart, eyes ears (Although it can evidently hear, as it responds to praise from Bee) Kisame was able to physically be inside Samhada *insert rape face here* and we didn't see any organs whatsoever.
> 
> Genjutsu works by effecting the chakra's nervous system, Samehada doesn't have one. Kisame should inherit this to some degree and not be effected by Genjutsu.



Didn't Kisame get caught in Itachi's genjutsu when they fought?...


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Now you say Kisame isn't as fast as Minato, but his reaction is 9-10? Now 10 would be reacting to 8 gates Gai so that's wrong 8 would be reacting to Minato point blank range and js Killer-Bee was younger the time Minato and him clashed so Bee's reaction time is most likely better due to more experience so I would give Kisame a 7 in reaction time.



Speed=Shunshin and Hiraishin stuff.

Your assessment on Gai vs Minato in speed is wrong. As much as I like Gai, even in 8 gates he's not faster than Minato's Hiraishin. Instantaneous teleportion is faster than running speed, no matter how fast Gai can go. 

Comparing AAAA and Gai would be a more reasonable comparison. Instantaneous teleportion is above Shunshin no matter what way you look at it.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Now speed... you say Minato, AAAA is 9 to 10, while Kisame is a 7 now I'm not taking that away at all but in a battle you can obviously react to something but.... to move away/block/dodge a enemies attack that is ranked 9-10 in speed...reaction starts to go down fast in terms of importance...you have to be able to physically move before the enemy tags you.



Except Kisame has the reactionary feats to support my claim. 

Bee reacted to Minato's Hiraishin by physically moving his sword to his stomach/chest, resulting in a stalemate. 
Kisame has canonically reacted to Bee in CQC multiple times (I can get the scans if you'd like, but i'm sure you've seen them a dozen and a half times, but I will get them if anyone's interested)
In my mind, speed is stuff like Shunshin and Hiraishin, whereas reactions are either mental (FKS Sasuke couldn't physically keep up with V2 AAAA, so he reacted with Amaterasu shield) or physical (blocking V2 Bee with Samehada, throwing V1 Bee through the air with Samehada etc)
Keep in mind Bee could react to Minato, who has reactions on par with V2 AAAA.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Now chakra...he's not a 9 lmao you saying Kurama is 10 should tell you something in terms of comparison..I would say he's an 8 that's like being on pair with a jinchuuriki.



Kisame's chakra is, at minimum on par with Nanabi, and at best, on par with Hachibi (I view it as somewhere between the 2) Hachibi is the second strongest of the Bijuu as per canon, Hachibi would be mid-9, whereas Kisame is at worst, on the lower end of 9



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Now analytical abilities, ok yes Kisame figured out what Bee was trying to do but that doesn't mean he can figure out what other shinobi are trying to do in a battle situation and killer bee isn't the smartest person in the world lmao and you comparing him to Itachi's analytical skills isn't accurate because Itachi consistently shows it in almost all of his battles and he has outsmarted some of the most smartest characters in naruto...Kakashi, Sasuke, Orochimaru...



Being able to figure out what your opponent is doing by them doing 1 action is something only the higher end Shinobi in terms of Analysis are able to do. It doesn't matter if Bee is smart of not, that has no relevance when measuring Kisame's analytical abilities. And Itachi has never outsmarted Kakashi. Kakashi overestimated his Sharingan in P1 (or underestimated Itachi, take your pick). That doesn't equate to outsmarting Kakashi. 
I'll give Itachi credit for outsmarting Hebi Sasuke. Sasuke was able to figure out an opponents abilities with 2 exchanges. But see, Kisame figured out Bee's intent without even a single real exchange. 
Orochimaru is kind of foolish in combat, lets be honest. If he was fighting seriously 100% of the time, he'd be very formidable, but his arrogance consistently leads to his defeat. In a real slug-fest full on non-genjutsu battle where Oro is serious with KI, he could handle Itachi more times than not imo. 
And on both occasions where Itachi has defeated Oro, it had nothing to do with outsmarting him.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Now Taijutsu , like you said Kisame hasn't shown feats with it...so you saying that Kisame can hold his own against shinobi that excels in Taijutsu is not consistent. Now strength... you said Kisame is a 8-9 on pair with Tsunade and SAGES because he holds a "gargantuan sword" and can slash mini craters with...it dosent mean he's on the level of tsunade and sage .... Tsunade has consistently shown that she's much stronger then the average shinobi while Kisame with his "gargantuan sword" got blocked by Asuma and is no where near consistent showing his strength that is supposedly on pair with Tsunade and with the Sage part... your basically saying that he can lift a freaking giant rhino up at least 50 feet into the air...if that was the case then we would've seen Kisame throwing shinobi left and right.



Regarding Taijutsu, Kisame is primarily a CQC fighter, to assume when he's disarmed from a sword he can't fight is foolish. All swordsman need to possess some form of Taijutsu expertise when disarmed from their weapon (Old Hiruzen is a perfect example)

Sasuke-Master swordsman. Exceptionally strong and fast, is fantastic in Taijutsu. Even though he can fight in Taijutsu, I find he only uses it as an opening for Chidori though. But if given the choice, he uses his sword
Zabuza-Armed with only a Kunai in mouth was able to take on that mob boss' men 1v100 (idk the mob guys name) But given the choice he uses his sword
Suigetsu-Master swordsman, can fight in NinTaijutsu on par with BM Bee.

The list goes on. To assume Kisame is the only exception in terms of swordsman being able to use Taijutsu well is foolish, much like those who say Kisame can't fight in mist, despite literally every other one of the 7SOTM being able to. Just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean we can't generally accept it.

Regarding strength.

I never said Tsunade wasn't FAR above the average Shinobi in strength, hence why she's at an 8-9 level. 

Kisame was also bearing down on Asuma casually *with 1 arm and the lightest part of his sword*. This is nothing to ignore considering Jounin were supposed to be viewed as the best besides Kage at the time. (before all the crazy P2 powerups)

Kisame showed no signs of actual strain in bearing down on Asuma, who was giving it his all not to get hit with Samehada.

You can bet if Kisame had the middle of his sword bearing down on Asuma using both arms, he'd have cut him straight in half, or, in true Samehada fashion, shredded him.

Kisame not holding back and actually trying should be able to casually throw a Rhino.

Kisame was legit laughing, smiling and taunting the Jounin the entire time, he was, at no point pressured into going all out.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Now durability, I'm not gonna say anything about the V2 Susanoo because that would take a while to explain but can he take as much damage as Tsunade, Sakura(War Ark) and Konan's paper form and heal from it and act like it never happened?...that should tell you how much durability Kisame actually haves and the majority of shinobi dosent use blunt force in battle they use piercing power...



Yes, he can heal from it and act like it never happened casually, we've seen him on panel casually recovering from having his chest and stomach areas blown out, and proceeding to use one of his most powerful jutsu immediately after. And most Shinobi use brute force as their method of attack (Gai, AAAA, Tsunade, Naruto with his Bijuudama's) etc etc, no i'm not saying Kisame can tank a Bijuudama, i'm just giving some examples of high end non piercing based attacks.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Didn't Kisame get caught in Itachi's genjutsu when they fought?...



1. That was not canon
2. He was not merged with Samehada


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

@Troyse22 two simple topics I would like to see you address:

How can Samehada absorb Amaterasu even though he struggled with a basic Katon. It is manga fact that Amaterasu is tiers above regular flames.
How can Kisame escape the AOE of Chibaku Tensei?
you go ahead and take your time on these two topics.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> you go ahead and take your time on these two topics



Don't need to, they're relatively simple to address.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> How can Samehada absorb Amaterasu even though he struggled with a basic Katon. It is manga fact that Amaterasu is tiers above regular flames.



Your point is flawed, Samehada didn't actually struggle to absorb Katon. Samehada also hates the taste of Katon-based chakra. Katon cannot actually BURN Samehada, since it absorbs the chakra out of things before it actually touches the blade. Samehada absorbing Katon is the equivalent of a person eating a ghost pepper or whatever they're called. There's legit people who eat that shit for fun, it burns the fuck out of their mouths, but they do it. They're not physically incapable of doing so. 

Amaterasu is also pretty overrated, with horribly inconsistent feats throughout the manga. As i've said before, I rate Madara's higher ranked Katon over Amaterasu because Madara's Katon's are more consistent. Amaterasu didn't even burn through a Samurai's armor in 20+ seconds, only burned Karin's shirt etc etc. I could go on and on.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> How can Kisame escape the AOE of Chibaku Tensei?



This is an interesting one.

I can't see a moment where Kisame needs to actually avoid CT outside of battling Edo Nagato directly. 

But, I know that's not the answer you're looking for, so lets go into it.

In short by the time the battle escalates to a point where his opponent (presumably Nagato) uses CT, he will already have formed Waterdome. Kisame can either outswim the gravitational force of CT (Kakashi was able to overcome BT mometarily by hanging onto a chain, and I personally don't view CT's attraction force that much stronger than BT's) The gravitational force is honestly kind of overrated. Or he can destroy it by launching a barrage of powerful Suiton's at it. Naruto/Kurama was able to overcome CT with physical strength, there's no reason to assume Kisame can't either.


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## Ishmael (Feb 5, 2017)

Hmm... this seems interesting I'll watch this threads hopefully, I can get a couple laughs off of it... please don't disappoint me.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Hmm... this seems interesting I'll watch this threads hopefully, I can get a couple laughs off of it... please don't disappoint me.





Troyse22 said:


> If you don't want to partake, then keep your negative comments to yourself



You can feel free to ask a question, but don't ruin the discussion by being obnoxious.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Don't need to, they're relatively simple to address. Your point is flawed, Samehada didn't actually struggle to absorb Katon. Samehada also hates the taste of Katon-based chakra. Katon cannot actually BURN Samehada, since it absorbs the chakra out of things before it actually touches the blade. Samehada absorbing Katon is the equivalent of a person eating a ghost pepper or whatever they're called. There's legit people who eat that shit for fun, it burns the fuck out of their mouths, but they do it. They're not physically incapable of doing so.


Amaterasu would spawn on the blade and kisame himself - Samehadas chakra absorption ability isn't turned on 100% of the time so the flames would land on the outside of the blade and on Kisame - Samehada would have to deal with the burning from Amaterasu then the burning from eating katon based chakra and also try to help Kisame .. this also has to happen before Itachi can close in (though after ama he's pretty drained). Even if Samehada absorbs Amaterasu completely there is no way it can continue the battle (it would be overloaded especially if we're using your ghost pepper comparison - it would be difficult to fight when you basically feel like throwing up hell itself).





> Amaterasu is also pretty overrated, with horribly inconsistent feats throughout the manga. As i've said before, I rate Madara's higher ranked Katon over Amaterasu because Madara's Katon's are more consistent. Amaterasu didn't even burn through a Samurai's armor in 20+ seconds, only burned Karin's shirt etc etc. I could go on and on.


If you go on and on you'll know that it has very consistent feats as well that completely back up its portrayal:

burning fire itself ( )
downing Hachibi (he who tanks a ridiculous amount of explosions)
burning through Gamaguchi Shibari (said to be fire resistant)
pretty sure I'm missing one more important one .. three is enough though.
those feats make 100% more sense than the inconsistent crap we have with Amaterasu I mean think about it. You have Madaras Katon above Amaterasu because of its consistent feats?? It couldn't burn Tsunade who gets AmaGG'd according to the entire BD .. iirc it couldnt even burn her clothing .



> In short by the time the battle escalates to a point where his opponent (presumably Nagato) uses CT, he will already have formed Waterdome. Kisame can either outswim the gravitational force of CT (Kakashi was able to overcome BT mometarily by hanging onto a chain, and I personally don't view CT's attraction force that much stronger than BT's) The gravitational force is honestly kind of overrated. Or he can destroy it by launching a barrage of powerful Suiton's at it. Naruto/Kurama was able to overcome CT with physical strength, there's no reason to assume Kisame can't either.


If Bansho Tennin were anywhere near Chibaku Tenseis gravitational force then Chibaku Tensei as a jutsu wouldn't even exist - that's like saying CST has the same amount of force as a regular Shinra Tensei. The Gravitational Force of Chibaku tensei creates super large craters in the ground and its so strong that even Killer Bee (Kisames Physical Superior) was taken away by the force along with Edo Itachi & KCM Naruto. It took Yasaka Magatama / TBB / and Narutos FRS to destroy CT core I really don't think his Suitons will have enough force to destroy it. If Chibaku Tensei is launched (I doubt Pein Rikudo or Edo Tensei Nagato would ever need to use such jutsu) then Kisame will start floating in the air - he can try to use the terrain for a foothold and jump away but the gravitational force will only get stronger as he gets closer to the center which will happen very quickly. Once he is pinned to Chibaku Tensei a shit ton of rubble will bombard him and that will be enough to end him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Feb 5, 2017)

@Troyse22 , how , or why is Kisame above BSM Minato ?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 5, 2017)

How is Kisame stronger than Itachi, SM Naruto, Base minato?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Has strength on par with Tsunade and Sages


Due to which feat ? I never See Kisame lift and throw something heavier than 100 ton ? Or able to smash a mountain size things or areas ? 

And ı thnk you regarding all part 1 feats as well  But its acceptable.




Troyse22 said:


> Bee almost cut Sasuke in half from his midsection with a V1 Lariat


Nope he only open a hole in his chest. Nothing happen about near to "cut"




Troyse22 said:


> 9, on par with Itachi, Kakashi etc.


He gets in cqc 3  times against a monster like Gai ? His calm, analytic ı get that but ı dont think he is not good as Itachi or Kakashi when its comes to decide or make a step. 

And Kisame aint has any intellectual feats like Naruto, Minato, kakashi, Itachi, Tobirama, Jiraiya, Oroc, etc etc.. And he is also aint has any reputation on this department too.




Troyse22 said:


> Durability: 8, has roughly V2 Susanoo durability levels to blunt force


If you're add samehada as a shield to that score ı'm agree with you but ıf we're talked about Base Kisame. I want to show an example.

4th Raikage hits thru Sasuke's ribcage susano (which is covered with amaterasu thats mean a lot of pain for 4th) and sasuke get a clear hit from his face/head (chin) and didnt even bleed ?? 

So ıf kisame takes  a V2 Raiton Armour Chopper Move to his face ? Can he survive or even can tank it w/o a any wound on his face ?? 

If the answer yes, this will be my final post to this topic  ıf the answer is no; then he cant have the durability as V2 Susano ?


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2017)

1) 
Explain why samehada with no feats at all can be assumed to absorbed jinton
Yet you concede on it being unable to absorb TSB
When TSB has not shown to require more chakra than jinton
And they both function the same way

2) explain how samehada can absorb a curse seal mark to the point the seal disappears when we got the following as evidence 
- kabuto absorbed oro chakra from anko curse seal and the seal remained
- juubito with the power to absorb jutsu left a hirashin mark on him despite falling for the jutsu 4 times. and having full knowledge on the technique

3) gaara had bijuu level chakra but we saw how much stronger he got in a desert why does the same not hold true for kisame. despite the fact that to barf a lake the size of an ocean he would be using chakra he doesnt have to use if there is an ocean there already 

4) why is wood dragon absorption limit bijuudama yet daikodan is perceived to have a superior absorption limit. when we factor in that wood dragon was used to restrain things like the kyuubi and could even absorb preta path barrier

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## theRonin (Feb 5, 2017)

Top 15 most powerful Shinobi (in my opinion)
God tiers:
1. Kaguya Otsutsuki-Progenitor of Chakra (rest of the Otsutsuki god tiers just under her)
2. JJ Madara Uchiha-The Second Sage of Six Paths (Full Rinnegan)
3. Naruto Uzumaki-The Child of Prophecy (RSBM)
4. Sasuke Uchiha (BPS)
5. Might Guy (8th Gate)
6. DMS Rikudo Kakashi Hatake-The Copy Ninja (PS, Kamui)
7. JJ Obito Uchiha-Saviour (Strong willed)
Transcendent Tiers:
8. Orochimaru-One of The Legendary Sannin (War Arc, Edo Tensei, control over Edo Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and Hiruzen)
9. SM Kabuto Yakushi (War Arc, Sage Mode, Edo Tensei)
10. Hashirama Senju-God of Shinobi (Senpo Mokuton: Shinsu Senju) (Edo is around the same level)
11. VOTE Madara Uchiha-Ghost of the Uchiha (Kyuubi, PS, EMS)
Top tiers:
12. Obito Uchiha (Kamui)
*13. Kisame Hoshigaki-Tailed Beast Without a Tail (Daikodan, Waterdome, Kisamehada, Samehada, 1000 feeding sharks)
13. Nagato Uzumaki-Third Six Paths (mobile, edo) (CT, CST, ST, Preta, Asura, BT)
14. Naruto Uzumaki (BSM)*
15. Itachi Uchiha-Clan Killer (Edo)


What is your reasoning behind placing Kisame above Nagato and BSM Naruto?

Second question, What is your reason for Kisame getting caught in Kurenai's Genjutsu? Even with Samehade in his hands.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bonly (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> When merged with Samehada, Kisame inherits some of its abilities (as seen when he made contact with Bee and was absorbing chakra out of him) and of course, his shark like appearance. He also inherits spikes that protrude from his shoulders, a trait which Samehada possesses and Kisame can also sense chakra through his skin when merged.
> 
> Samehada is a relatively simple but complex being, with presumably no brain, no heart, eyes ears (Although it can evidently hear, as it responds to praise from Bee) Kisame was able to physically be inside Samhada *insert rape face here* and we didn't see any organs whatsoever.
> 
> ...



Actually Genjutsu works by controlling the chakra flow inside the cranial nerves aka their brains. So as long as Kisame has a brain he should still be effected.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> When merged with Samehada, Kisame inherits some of its abilities (as seen when he made contact with Bee and was absorbing chakra out of him) and of course, his shark like appearance. He also inherits spikes that protrude from his shoulders, a trait which Samehada possesses and Kisame can also sense chakra through his skin when merged.
> 
> Samehada is a relatively simple but complex being, with presumably no brain, no heart, eyes ears (Although it can evidently hear, as it responds to praise from Bee) Kisame was able to physically be inside Samhada *insert rape face here* and we didn't see any organs whatsoever.
> 
> ...



Ok if Kisame is merged with Samehada he should inherit it "to some degree" and I'm pretty sure Samehada haves some type of nurses because why else would he react to Katon?... he must have some type of intelligence or nerves and even if Kisame merged with Samehada is immune to genjutsu, a person who excels or uses Genjutsu as there main jutsu will try using genjutsu way before Kisame is merged with Samehada

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2017)

Kisame hype is he = a tail beast 
Nagato hype second coming of SO6P 
Seems hype wise nagato is horrendously above kisame

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 5, 2017)

How does kisame tank a CST?
How does Samehada absorb jinton, when its weakness is heat/fire, and the biggest factor that allows jinton to erase its target is heat/fire?
You're basically suggesting that Pt1 Kabuto could survive a rasenshurkien despite barely surviving a rasengan?
How does Kisames water "block" the opponents LOS?
Why do you think Kisame has instantaneous reflexes? You do understand its an impossible for ANYONE to have instantaneous reflexes because something that's instantaneous doesn't have a travel distance..right?
How was Kisame portrayed to be above minato.
How is kisame nagato's equal?
How does kisame escape CT?


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> How does kisame tank a CST?
> How does Samehada absorb jinton, when its weakness is heat/fire, and the biggest factor that allows jinton to erase its target is heat/fire?
> You're basically suggesting that Pt1 Kabuto could survive a rasenshurkien despite barely surviving a rasengan?
> How does Kisames water "block" the opponents LOS?
> ...


Daikodan can take care of CT
The rest is just silly talk 
From yours truly


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## Sapherosth (Feb 5, 2017)

Kisame durability = V2 Susano is ridiculous. 


Did you forget that his chest got blown apart by Bee?   


Did you also forget when he got elbowed by Gai?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

@Troyse22 here is what everyone has asked so far:

What feats does Kisame have to suggest his body has V2 Susanoo durability?
How does Samehada absorb Jinton or Amaterasu?
How does Kisame suddenly have instantaneous reflexes?
Why do you apply the NLF to Daikodan?
How does Kisame absorb Minatos tag?
How is Kisame portrayed above Minato?
How is Kisame portrayed as Nagatos equal?
How does Kisame escape from Chibaku Tensei?



Icegaze said:


> Kisame hype is he = a tail beast Nagato hype second coming of SO6P Seems hype wise nagato is horrendously above kisame


The Rinnegan is literally Bijuu Kryptonite .. its honestly unfair when we look at the portrayal gap between the two.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Amaterasu would spawn on the blade and kisame himself - Samehadas chakra absorption ability isn't turned on 100% of the time so the flames would land on the outside of the blade and on Kisame - Samehada would have to deal with the burning from Amaterasu then the burning from eating katon based chakra and also try to help Kisame .. this also has to happen before Itachi can close in (though after ama he's pretty drained). Even if Samehada absorbs Amaterasu completely there is no way it can continue the battle (it would be overloaded especially if we're using your ghost pepper comparison - it would be difficult to fight when you basically feel like throwing up hell itself).



This paragraph is pretty pointless, Amaterasu has to travel, it doesn't actually just hit whatever the target has sighted regardless of Zetsu's statement. This is backed by Itachi's Ama having a travel time to reach Sasuke, Sasuke's Ama only hitting Bee after traveling and Sasuke's Ama missing because V2 AAAA actually DODGED that shit.

It's not instantaneous.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> those feats make 100% more sense than the inconsistent crap we have with Amaterasu I mean think about it



We can't just ignore its bad feats.

And it has quite a bit of them.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> It couldn't burn Tsunade who gets AmaGG'd according to the entire BD .. iirc it could even burn her clothing



Tsunade doesn't get Ama ggd

She gets Genjutsu GG'd, but I digress. 



HandfullofNaruto said:


> If Bansho Tennin were anywhere near Chibaku Tenseis gravitational force then Chibaku Tensei as a jutsu wouldn't even exist




Wrong, BT and CT serve different purposes, but the function of the jutsu's is basically the same



HandfullofNaruto said:


> The Gravitational Force of Chibaku tensei creates super large craters in the ground and its so strong that even Killer Bee (Kisames Physical Superior) was taken away by the force along with Edo Itachi & KCM Naruto. It took Yasaka Magatama / TBB / and Narutos FRS to destroy CT core I really don't think his Suitons will have enough force to destroy it. If Chibaku Tensei is launched (I doubt Pein Rikudo or Edo Tensei Nagato would ever need to use such jutsu) then Kisame will start floating in the air - he can try to use the terrain for a foothold and jump away but the gravitational force will only get stronger as he gets closer to the center which will happen very quickly. Once he is pinned to Chibaku Tensei a shit ton of rubble will bombard him and that will be enough to end him.



1. Killer Bee is not Kisame's physical superior, unless we're talking about Bee in full BM
2. It's almost universally accepted that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama didn't do shit.
3. Well you're right about Pein not using the jutsu, he'd be long dead before he ever got the chance.


4. If Kisame has formed Waterdome when CT comes out, the rubble that CT attracts will push his water away from the core, Kisame will always be on the outside based on this, and actually cannot get caught in the rubble.



cctr9 said:


> @Troyse22 , how , or why is Kisame above BSM Minato ?



1. Minato's SM is garbage
2. Hes never actually used BSM
3. Kisame would defeat more high tier opponents than KCM/BM Minato would



professor83 said:


> How is Kisame stronger than Itachi, SM Naruto, Base minato?



Idk why SM Naruto is here, he's not even close to the others you mentioned, but okay.

Itachi has below average stamina and chakra reserves, Kisame excels in this.
Itachi relies on Genjutsu for the majority of his battles, only bringing out Susanoo in his final moments, Kisame has too much knowledge on Itachi's genjutsu and how its applied to be caught up in it.
Everything SM Naruto does Kisame can counter effectively, if you can't figure this out on your own, I can go in depth
Base Minato has no D/C or physical strength, something that any high tier Shinobi needs. inb4 10+ Rasengan barrage fanfiction.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Due to which feat ? I never See Kisame lift and throw something heavier than 100 ton ? Or able to smash a mountain size things or areas ?
> 
> And ı thnk you regarding all part 1 feats as well  But its acceptable.




Addressed.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> He gets in cqc 3 times against a monster like Gai ? His calm, analytic ı get that *but ı dont think he is not good as Itachi or Kakashi when its comes to decide or make a step*



I want to know your reasoning, your claim seems baseless.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> And Kisame aint has any intellectual feats like Naruto, Minato, kakashi, Itachi, Tobirama, Jiraiya, Oroc, etc etc.. And he is also aint has any reputation on this department too.



Hence why he's not high rated in intelligence? You're acting as if i'm denying that.

Also lol'd at Naruto being intelligent.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> 4th Raikage hits thru Sasuke's ribcage susano (which is covered with amaterasu thats mean a lot of pain for 4th) and sasuke get a clear hit from his face/head (chin) and didnt even bleed ??



He got hit on the shoulders

He couldn't even move when Ay was going to finish him off. Sasuke was done for, Gaara saved his ass.



Icegaze said:


> 1)
> Explain why samehada with no feats at all can be assumed to absorbed jinton
> Yet you concede on it being unable to absorb TSB
> When TSB has not shown to require more chakra than jinton
> ...



If only you weren't obnoxious on the next page.

I will not be addressing you you.





Ichibat said:


> Top 15 most powerful Shinobi (in my opinion)
> God tiers:
> 1. Kaguya Otsutsuki-Progenitor of Chakra (rest of the Otsutsuki god tiers just under her)
> 2. JJ Madara Uchiha-The Second Sage of Six Paths (Full Rinnegan)
> ...



My sig indicates I view them as equals, not Kisame above Nagato.

13=13

Samehada being in his hands is irrelevant, he wasn't merged and had no knowledge of her Genjutsu

Naruto relies on chakra based attacks, we all know what happens to chakra based attacks against Kisame.


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2017)

i accept your concession kido. 
@Troyse22 
hard questions to answer, i get it. Fan trolling can only take one so far.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Ok if Kisame is merged with Samehada he should inherit it "to some degree" and I'm pretty sure Samehada haves some type of nurses because why else would he react to Katon?... he must have some type of intelligence or nerves and even if Kisame merged with Samehada is immune to genjutsu, a person who excels or uses Genjutsu as there main jutsu will try using genjutsu way before Kisame is merged with Samehada



Kisame cannot be hit by any Uchiha genjutsu, his knowledge is second to none regarding their genjutsu outside of others Uchiha, and maybe Hashirama and Tobirama. Being partnered alongside Itachi for years gave him this knowledge.

Itachi is the only Uchiha who excels and uses genjutsu as their main arsenal, Kisame can deal with him.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Did you forget that his chest got blown apart by Bee?
> 
> 
> Did you also forget when he got elbowed by Gai?



1. I've explained why Kisame receiving that V2 Lariat from Bee is actually a durability feat on Kisame's end.
In short, already addressed.

2. Scan please.


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## Android (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 1. Minato's SM is garbage
> 2. Hes never actually used BSM


Hmm 
I thought you were guys talking about a hypothetical BSM Minato , but if it does not exist then why bring it in the 1st place ? 


Troyse22 said:


> 3. Kisame would defeat more high tier opponents than KCM/BM Minato would


What ? 
Kisame will not / can not beat even kid Obito , or Nagato , or Itachi , or Kabuto , whom BM Minato would fodderstomp utterly .


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 5, 2017)

This is just gonna snowball and get outta control real fast imo, cant see this ending well and/or staying on topic...

That said, @Troyse22 my question to you is...

Why do you think Kisame can react to teleportation because Bee did (even tho thats not what bee did but lets assume he did just for giggles) and kisame can react to teleportation because he reacted to Bee (even tho thats not what kisame did but lets assume he did just for giggles) ?

Do you not see the flaw in that logic? You are implying that Bees movement speed is equal to or greater than FTG and kisame reacted to it, thats the only logical way kisame could be considered able to react to FTG is if he reacted to something on a similar level of speed, so when you say _"bee reacted to ftg, kisame reacted to bee, kisame can react to ftg"_ you are saying

FTG>=<V2 Bee>>>V2 A in speed...which isnt true as we know A is faster than Bee, and we know FTG is far faster than A is

Another problem with this logic...its just blatantly not how reaction speed works...Reaction speed=/=movement speed, if that was the case chidori wouldnt require sharingan to compensate for its speed, and A wouldnt need to augment his reflexes with raiton when using his shroud etc, and equaling someone in one stat doesnt equate to being on par with them in the other, so even if kisame reacted to bees top speed, that doesnt give him access to bees reaction feats...thats just not how it works as the two function entirely different, you can react to something that moves faster than you can move, your movement speed =/= your reaction speed, thats how minato reacted to sekizo and V2 A despite them having a speed advantage.

Furthermore, we have a direct comparison between 2 fighters at literally equal speed yet there is a disparity in their reaction time as admitted by one of the fighters themselves. Further proving my point that having the same movement speed doesnt mean you have the same reaction speed.

*To summarize my point*, how do you justify giving kisame Bees reaction feats just because kisame can (debatably) react to Bees speed? And how does (debatably) reacting to a V2 Jin mean you can react to FTG which is literally the fastest thing in the verse cuz its instant?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Kisame will not / can not beat even kid Obito



I agree



cctr9 said:


> or Nagato



I disgaree, Kisame vs Nagato can go either way, whereas Nagato fodderstomps Minato



cctr9 said:


> or Itachi



Tsukuyomi



cctr9 said:


> or Kabuto



Both lose to Kabuto, he's in another league


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## Android (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto relies on chakra based attacks, we all know what happens to chakra based attacks against Kisame.


Weird how Momoshiki who's a threat even to Kaguya and who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kisame in terms of chakra absorption was killed by a Cho Odama Rasengan 


Troyse22 said:


> I agree


Good .


Troyse22 said:


> I disgaree, Kisame vs Nagato can go either way, whereas Nagato fodderstomps Minato


No , Nagato would fodderstomps the ever living crap outta of Kisame .
He'd lose to BM Minato who's the topic of our discussion 


Troyse22 said:


> Tsukuyomi


Um , no , TBB GG 


Troyse22 said:


> Both lose to Kabuto, he's in another league


W/o ET he is not above BM Minato , but he is sure as hell above Kisame


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is just gonna snowball and get outta control real fast imo, cant see this ending well and/or staying on topic...
> 
> That said, @Troyse22 my question to you is...
> 
> ...



Just so I don't get this mixed up, are you saying to have fast reactions, one has to be quick in terms of Shunshin?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 5, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> W/o ET he is not above BM Minato , but he is sure as hell above Kisame


Even with ET minato has contract seal

Literally every edo would rather fight alongside the fourth hokage than kabuto...hes lame, creepy, disgusting and very likely has some form of disease from literally injecting another human into him...

Minato would get itachi for sure...so you know...izanami gg


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Just so I don't get this mixed up, are you saying to have fast reactions, one has to be quick in terms of Shunshin?


No...


WorldsStrongest said:


> so even if kisame reacted to bees top speed, that doesnt give him access to bees reaction feats...thats just not how it works as the two function entirely different, *you can react to something that moves faster than you can move, your movement speed =/= your reaction speed*, thats how minato reacted to sekizo and V2 A despite them having a speed advantage.


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## Android (Feb 5, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Even with ET minato has contract seal


And he has Shiki Fujin as well , but that does not mean he can beat Rinnegan Sasuke for example .
Minato is not beating Edo Itachi + Edo Nagato + 4 Edo kages + hundreds of ET + Kabuto himself .


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 5, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> And he has Shiki Fujin as well , but that does not mean he can beat Rinnegan Sasuke for example .
> Minato is not beating Edo Itachi + Edo Nagato + 4 Edo kages + hundreds of ET + Kabuto himself .


No...but...


WorldsStrongest said:


> Literally every edo would rather fight alongside the fourth hokage than kabuto...hes lame, creepy, disgusting and very likely has some form of disease from literally injecting another human into him...



Minato would get Dan, Asuma, Itachi, Hizashi out of sheer loyalty to konoha, very likely all of the Kages simply due to reputation when he drops his name and position as a fellow Kage, Hed at least get Rasa as the leaf and sand had that alliance going on when he died, and in getting the kage he would likely get some of the other edo shinobi from their respective villages, minato would maybe get Nagato as hes team good guy after narutos talk no jutsu and would maybe feel guilty about killing minatos sensei, and maybe minato would drop the "in law" card and say they were cousins due to his marriage to kushina and stuff, plus the whole sibling disciples thing with Jman.

Id say minato would become the edo class president and floor kabuto with numbers if he landed contract seal

Could be wrong tho

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## t0xeus (Feb 5, 2017)

Why would Samehada/Daikodan be able to absorb PS easily considering the amount of chakra and the ability to move PS in seconds to attack Kisame trying to absorb?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

Please don't turn this into Minato vs Kabuto you guys, take it to a Pm


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## Sapherosth (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 1. I've explained why Kisame receiving that V2 Lariat from Bee is actually a durability feat on Kisame's end.
> In short, already addressed.
> 
> 2. Scan please.





1. No, that's not a durability feat at all. In fact, Samehada took the V2 version and reduced the impact for Kisame as well. So technically, Kisame didn't even tank anything remarkable at all. Samehada was the one who reduced the impact significantly. 







Sasuke got a CLEAN HIT 









You can't tell me that Kisame has V2 Susano durability when he's damaged just as much as Sasuke by the same technique. Although Bee did use a stronger version, Kisame still had samehada as the front shield and he still received significant damage. That's NOT V2 Susano level durability at all.



Anyways, I am done.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

I'll address you when I go on my lunch break in a while btw World's.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> This paragraph is pretty pointless, Amaterasu has to travel, it doesn't actually just hit whatever the target has sighted regardless of Zetsu's statement. This is backed by Itachi's Ama having a travel time to reach Sasuke, Sasuke's Ama only hitting Bee after traveling and Sasuke's Ama missing because V2 AAAA actually DODGED that shit. It's not instantaneous.


If the target is moving (sasuke had a head-start and was already running yet still got caught by blind as fucking shit Itachi (I'm ready to say Itachi is a sensor because shit he is so fucking blind.)) or can react to the spawn (A4 fastest man in the world lost his arm to Amaterasu). Kisame isn't exactly a speedster and his fighting style doesn't allow him to stay on the move constantly which is his only option considering he lacks the speed to properly react and dodge. It is safe to say that Amaterasu will land on Kisame before he & Samehada can react. I never said that Amaterasu was instantaneous - just that Kisame & Samehada would get caught in the Jutsu .. I'm assuming you must have instantaneous attacks if you're going to down Kisame though .. right? I suppose its is up for speculation but I doubt that Samehada would be able to deal with the pain from Amaterasu while also trying to absorb the chakra it hates from itself and Kisames body (this isn't up for speculation)-- especially before Itachi or Sasuke can close in with an attack.





> We can't just ignore its bad feats. And it has quite a bit of them.


I never said to ignore the terrible feats but not to focus on them when coming to a conclusion. You say that Amaterasus inconsistent feats put it below Madaras Katons yet there is inconsistency with his flames and you should also note the fact that there is a zero percent chance Kishimoto believes Madaras Katons are superior to Amaterasu the fire burning flames. The inconsistent feats weren't to show us that Amaterasu wasn't strong but just laziness on Kishi & Staff's behalf - when we have actual statements about a Jutsu (a rather important one) and multiple feats to back it up it makes no sense to focus on something that we know for a fact was inconsistent .. do you understand what I am getting at?





> Wrong, BT and CT serve different purposes, but the function of the jutsu's is basically the same


Bansho Tennin & Chibaku Tensei having the same gravitational force makes no sense. A Chibaku Tensei core sent hundereds of meters into the air has gravitational force strong enough to rip out the earth and create a crater .. the closer you are to the orb the stronger the force will be so if boulders are being sucked up at high speeds from hundreds of meters away then you know the core has a ridiculously strong gravitational force. If Bansho Tennin had the same amount of force then every time he used it a huge amount of shit would come flying at him. CST & ST don't have the same force BT & CT don't have the same force





> 1. Killer Bee is not Kisame's physical superior, unless we're talking about Bee in full BM
> 2. It's almost universally accepted that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama didn't do shit.
> 3. Well you're right about Pein not using the jutsu, he'd be long dead before he ever got the chance.



V2 Bee is his physical superior / KN8 is V2 Bee's physical superior -- no way is Kisame escaping with brute strength that he lacks completely.
Since when??
Pein Rikudo would rape him with rods and before you go all HurrDurr he can absorb the chakra - that wont really help him with the four rods jammed through his neck & heart. 



> If Kisame has formed Waterdome when CT comes out, the rubble that CT attracts will push his water away from the core, Kisame will always be on the outside based on this, and actually cannot get caught in the rubble.


elaborate.. I don't get what you're trying to explain. I'll tell you this though - If Kisame is in Waterdome and Tendo uses Chibaku Tensei (an ooc method for dealing with such jutsu) then the core would already be very close to Kisame (he's at the center of waterdome which is pretty high in the air) .. the waterdome would be immediately super fucked up from the gravitational force and it would draw Kisame in very quickly at this height .. if he releases the jutsu he will be just as fucked but might survive for a little while longer.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Feb 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I want to know your reasoning, your claim seems baseless.


I'm aldready adressed. So you're not like it.. This is nothing about baseless. He faced with the same gai (who is limited with taijutsu) and still get in to close action. 

And he is only other fight in Shippuden Vs Killer Bee.. So chakra draning and try to immoblise him ? Kinda abilities that he owe to Sameada majorly. So , he never pulled something out of a hat in sudden so like Itachi or Kakashi or Minato. So .. Kisame is not dumb or weak as 4th Raikage on intelligence department but he is not with Itachi and Kakashi too.. And portrayal also back me up. Kisame never stated as some genius or resourceful intellect.

So you have to show me  I'm not. (which ı aldready adressed)




Troyse22 said:


> Addressed.


Not buyin it then.




Troyse22 said:


> He got hit on the shoulders
> 
> He couldn't even move when Ay was going to finish him off. Sasuke was done for, Gaara saved his ass.


 
This is a direct hit to chin.. Look at Sauce's face how its pounded. So nope its not shoulders.. And even if so chop on his shoulders you stil didnt answer to my question

Sasuke not done for. He was tired and Raikage was so fast. he was still able to manipulate his amaterasu right in time and thats mean he was still able to track him somehow.. Then he fight against Gaara w/o any healing or chakra boost.. How this is a "done" situation ? 

So you try to change subject. So you dont think Kisame can tanked that V2 Chop like tattered sasuke did.. SO your claim about "Kisame's Durability > V2 Susano" is wrong. 


Troyse22 said:


> Also lol'd at Naruto being intelligent.


Playing fool & goof when with friends it not make someone "non-intellect".. Naruto's guerilla tactics and creativity on battlefield can pass on any fighter. So ıf you gonna give "lol" to that.. I dont think you realy understand that manga  

Genin Naruto's plan against Zabuza >> anything Kisame shows to us


Troyse22 said:


> Naruto relies on chakra based attacks, we all know what happens to chakra based attacks against Kisame.


Then how Rookie KCM Naruto speedblitz Samehada fused Kisame and Samehada aint drain any chakra from chakra cloak ? 
I know Kisame was in a bad situation but samehada is still samehada.. It doesnt requires any command for draining. So thats mean.. Indesity of Chakra and speed of attacks can catch off guard even Samehada too.. So Samehada is not even close to Preta Path when its comes to draining ?  Dont you think ?


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## Serene Grace (Feb 5, 2017)

I think BT brings in its opponents faster, whereas CT has a stronger, and a greater gravatiational force, because it focus on wide spread construction.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I think BT brings in its opponents faster, whereas CT has a stronger, and a greater gravatiational force, because it focus on wide spread construction.


once the boulders or opponents are in closer range they fly a lot faster

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Feb 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If the target is moving (sasuke had a head-start and was already running yet still got caught by blind as fucking shit Itachi (I'm ready to say Itachi is a sensor because shit he is so fucking blind.)) or can react to the spawn (A4 fastest man in the world lost his arm to Amaterasu).


Yes , Amaterasu spawns on the target , it doesn't travel .
A can move faster than Amaterasu can spawn on his body , so by the time the flames are starting to show , A has already moved and the Ama spawns on A's after image .
And using Itachi's example isn't exactly the best idea when Itachi was trying his hardest NOT to hit Sasuke .
Unless people think Hebi Sasuke >= A in speed , in which case .....


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Yes , Amaterasu spawns on the target , it doesn't travel .
> A can move faster than Amaterasu can spawn on his body , so by the time the flames are starting to show , A has already moved and the Ama spawns on A's after image . And using Itachi's example isn't exactly the best idea when Itachi was trying his hardest NOT to hit Sasuke . Unless people think Hebi Sasuke >= A in speed , in which case .....


I brought up Ay losing an arm to Amaterasu because even though he can react and dodge it it's still effective in battle .. probably should've elaborated on that. Also Itachi was trying to hit Sasuke (he planned to put out the flames anyway). I chalked up his inaccuracy to:

Blind as shit
Sasuke has knowledge and was prepared immediately to counter
if he didn't want to hit Sasuke then he wouldn't have hit Sasuke.


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## Android (Feb 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I brought up Ay losing an arm to Amaterasu because even though he can react and dodge it it's still effective in battle


Relax , i'm on your side .


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Also Itachi was trying to hit Sasuke (he planned to put out the flames anyway). I chalked up his inaccuracy to:


He was not trying to kill him , he was only trying to hit the tip of his wing , trying his best not to hit Sasuke directly .
We know that in a fight where you are not having KI , it becomes harder to land your attacks .
That and the fact that Itachi was half blind to begin with .


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 5, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> He was not trying to kill him , he was only trying to hit the tip of his wing , trying his best not to hit Sasuke directly . We know that in a fight where you are not having KI , it becomes harder to land your attacks . That and the fact that Itachi was half blind to begin with .


Itachi was trying to land Amaterasu on Sasuke period - nowhere was it hinted that he was only trying to _maybe_ hit him (also note that his entire wing was engulfed in Amaterasu not just the tip). "Even your contingency plans were part of his calculations. Itachi had to pressure you during that battle. I'm sure you... understand why? He wanted to free you of the curse mark and Orochimaru." - Obito

I think it's safe to chalk up the inaccuracy to his blindness and blood covered eyes  + Sasukes readiness.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Itachi was trying to land Amaterasu on Sasuke period - nowhere was it hinted that he was only trying to _maybe_ hit him (also note that his entire wing was engulfed in Amaterasu not just the tip).





HandfullofNaruto said:


> his entire wing was engulfed in Amaterasu not just the tip)





HandfullofNaruto said:


> just the tip).





HandfullofNaruto said:


> *just the tip*

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Troyse22 (Feb 5, 2017)

It's a shame I couldn't address you tonight @WorldsStrongest and @HandfullofNaruto but...lactose intolerance+a ton of cheese stuffed taco's from tacp bell don't mix.

If I don't die from dehydration and pain i'll have a response up tomorrow

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Idk why SM Naruto is here, he's not even close to the others you mentioned, but okay.


SM Naruto >Itachi


Troyse22 said:


> Itachi has below average stamina and chakra reserves, Kisame excels in this.
> Itachi relies on Genjutsu for the majority of his battles, only bringing out Susanoo in his final moments, Kisame has too much knowledge on Itachi's genjutsu and how its applied to be caught up in it.
> Everything SM Naruto does Kisame can counter effectively, if you can't figure this out on your own, I can go in depth


Go in depth
Dont see kisame dealing with SM enhanced FRS
No answer to frog song
Cometely outclassed in CQC



Troyse22 said:


> Base Minato has no D/C or physical strength, something that any high tier Shinobi needs. inb4 10+ Rasengan barrage fanfiction.


Yatai no kuzushi 
Rasengan to head


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> This is just gonna snowball and get outta control real fast imo, cant see this ending well and/or staying on topic...
> 
> That said, @Troyse22 my question to you is...
> 
> ...



Ah okay gotcha, not sure why I didn't get it when I first read it, guess I was just tired or something.

V2 Ay and V2 Bee are equal, or V2 Bee is greater in speed. I base this off when they used double lariat on Kisame (Zetsu), Ay had to go V2, whereas Bee only had to go V1. In order to use double Lariat successfully, they have to make their speed and strength equal (as seen in the flashback when the candidates to be "B" had to fist bump A to let them know how much strength they would use) then they had to match each others speed, which was always the problem, B (the B we know now) was the only one to succeed in matching Ay's speed. 

Bee is incredibly fast, V2 is essentially Bijuu chakra trapped in humanoid form, this means that V2 Bee should "technically" hit harder than BM Bee (I forget who made this point, i'd like to give them credit as I forgot about, this was a month or two and they gave a much more detailed explanation on it)

But sorry, I went off topic, I apologize, but this addressed anyone asking a question similar.

V2 B is undoubtedly faster than V2 A. V2 A was noted to have speed comparable to Minato's Hiraishin. Logic dictates V2 B should as close to Minato's Hiraishin speed as one could get with Shunshin, with the exception of 8G Gai of course.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> SM Naruto >Itachi



no.

Naruto doesn't surpass Itachi until BSM



professor83 said:


> Go in depth
> Dont see kisame dealing with SM enhanced FRS
> No answer to frog song
> Cometely outclassed in CQC



Samehada.

The Chakra in a SM enhanced FRS is still well under a V2 cloak in chakra. Kisame was surprised he could control that much chakra and still remain conscious and sane (although I don't get this, because Kisame was casually wielding all of his own Bijuu levels of chakra+The Hachibi's) perhaps an underestimation of Bee's power.

Regardless...V2 Cloak>SM enhanced FRS in chakra
Frog song required prep
Can't be sung underwater
It's non factor
Kisame outclasses all Sannin in CQC, including SM Jiraiya.

Superior reactions by feats, arguably superior strength, CQC skill, Ninjutsu scale and power etc. 
Kisame would punk Jiraiya, i've already done this debate in the TBCA.

Tsunade is trash, I explained in Tsunade vs Kisame, it's on the very front page and is still active.

Oro can prove very difficult for Kisame to actually put down (able to Oral rebirth at least 8+ times casually in a healthy body) Manda seems irrelevant to me in this battle, he doesn't have gills. He cannot fight for long in water dome, and Kisame can evade or go on the attack against Oro.

Manda would be an escape tool and nothing more (poor Manda, always gets treated as a way to escape)

Yamata could prove troublesome, but it's very slow, although it seems it can dodge and move its heads fast.
Kisame can drown him underwater


I'm not elaborating or discussing this any further, I wanted this thread to be about Kisame's abilities rather than who he defeats as I stated in the OP.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

Something I would like to address:

Is Kisame's admission of inferiority to Jiraiya and Itachi in P1.

This has clearly been retconned by P2 (btw @professor83 I was loling at those edits) feats. Nothing suggests Kisame from P1 is remotely as powerful as his P2 self. No big techs, none.


Another thing i'd like to address:

Do not say X lost to one Sannin or admitted inferiority to one as a way to justify them losing to another Sannin, it makes you look dumb, you know who you are.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Infernal Imp (Feb 6, 2017)

Kisame's statement in part I is trash. Itachi said even with backup, and we all know by this point that Itachi gives Jiraiya high diff by himself if he doesn't win. If Jman faces 2 or more of the upper ranked akatsuki, he's likely going to lose. That being said, this thread is one step away from hell breaking loose


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

Infernal Imp said:


> Kisame's statement in part I is trash. Itachi said even with backup, and we all know by this point that Itachi gives Jiraiya high diff by himself if he doesn't win. If Jman faces 2 or more of the upper ranked akatsuki, he's likely going to lose. That being said, this thread is one step away from hell breaking loose




Agreed, even P1 Kisame and Itachi would've punked Jiraiya...fucking Base Jiraiya at that with laughable ease. Itachi seemed to be protecting Naruto, or was being a pussy....although now that I think about it Itachi didn't seem intent on stopping Kisame once he was going to cut off Naruto's legs (that's where I was like Holy fuck this dude is savage)

But there's no feasible way Base Jiraiya could've taken down both P1 Kisame and Itachi. With backup they would've trolled him.

If it turns into a shit storm, then i'll tag a mod and ask them to delete comments that are too off topic (possibly quoting the people who are going OT and asking them to delete that)

But yeah, general consensus is Kisame's P1 statement is trash, as is Itachi's, but some people *cough cough* Sannin wankers like to cling to that with their life.


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto doesn't surpass Itachi until BSM


KCM is a over kill
War arc sage naruto bests itachi


Troyse22 said:


> The Chakra in a SM enhanced FRS is still well under a V2 cloak in chakra. Kisame was surprised he could control that much chakra and still remain conscious and sane (although I don't get this, because Kisame was casually wielding all of his own Bijuu levels of chakra+The Hachibi's) perhaps an underestimation of Bee's power.


Samehada cannot absorb all chakra from FRS with blast radius before it absorbs all chakra kisame will also have his chakra points destroyed.
Samehada  petrifies


Troyse22 said:


> Superior reactions by feats, arguably superior strength, CQC skill, Ninjutsu scale and power etc.


Naruto is superior in CQC in every aspect that matters


Troyse22 said:


> Frog song required prep


Toad take Naruto out of dome
He gets enough time for frog song.


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame would punk Jiraiya, i've already done this debate in the TBCA.


Doing is not equal to proving doubt any one was influenced by your arguments.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Naruto doesn't surpass Itachi until *BSM*




Thanks man , this is going right into my sig 


Troyse22 said:


> Samehada.




FRS detonates and vaporizes Kisame and his sword into millions of pieces . Naruto has shown he can detonate it at a thought .
Good luck absorbing when you're inside a Bijuu sized vortex of countless wind chakra spining that every single cell in your body would be destroyed .
It can also be landed with Shadow Shuriken technique .


Troyse22 said:


> Frog song required prep



Implying he needs to beat the Tuna fish .


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame outclasses all Sannin in CQC, including SM Jiraiya.


Naruto in SM , with his chakra seperated between 3 clones can suplex Kurama w/o any effort .
Kisame gets bitch slapped like a dirty slut

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

Don't be obnoxious please @cctr9 

Ignoring your senseless attempt at baiting, Kurama doesn't possess Chakra absorption capabilities.

Kisame would absorb a ton of chakra from the FRS and Regen whatever damage is sustained.

You made a good point at him being able to detonate as he pleases, but Kisames regen makes up for it.

Naruto is not a Sannin, so your final quote doesn't make much sense.

If Kisame sees a ton of FRS flying his way, guess what he does.

Daikodan.

That shit would outright kill Naruto, unless you're telling me he can tank the power of Kisames Daikodan plus a shit ton of his FRS.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

@oetsuthebest you gonna need another report and warning from a mod? Keep dislike spamming and see how long you stick around.


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> obnoxious


I'm not , this is how i debate , you can't tell people to stop being who they are 


Troyse22 said:


> Kurama doesn't possess Chakra absorption capabilities.


Ok , so what ?? 
Are you trying to say , Kisame will absorb Naruto's chakra in CQC ? not only can you not prove that but also 


GG 


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame would absorb a ton of chakra from the FRS and Regen whatever damage is sustained.


Another sig worthy 
Kisame can not/will not , regen from FRS , not when Tsunade's medical ninjutsu can't heal the damage of a 50 % FRS .
What happened to Ningendo's body , happens to Kisame . Period .
We all know what can penetrative/cutting attacks do to him 


Troyse22 said:


> You made a good point at him being able to detonate as he pleases, but Kisames regen makes up for it.


HA

NO


Troyse22 said:


> Naruto is not a Sannin, so your final quote doesn't make much sense.


Indeed , he is above Jiraiya whom Kisame pissed his pants at the thought of facing him alone .


Troyse22 said:


> If Kisame sees a ton of FRS flying his way, guess what he does.
> 
> Daikodan.


Which turns out to be a heng'ed clone , and the real one is behind him about to abliterate him with a FRS .


Troyse22 said:


> Daikodan.
> 
> That shit would outright kill Naruto, unless you're telling me he can tank the power of Kisames Daikodan plus a shit ton of his FRS.


Let me teach you a lesson about this manga 
Having a certain absorption ability , *does not* mean , that you automatically render all Ninjutsu or chakra based attacks useless , that's nonsense .
Momoshiki for example , he's a much , much , much much much much much , much better than Kisame in terms of chakra absorption , but he got defeated by a Cho Odama Rasengan which is *Ninjutsu* , because they managed to *get around* his absorption ability .

Reactions: Like 2


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> FRS and Regen whatever damage is sustained.


Obviously he will regenerate when all his chakra system is left in tatters. Because . . ...... 


Troyse22 said:


> , but Kisames regen makes up for it.


No once his chakra network is gone he cant do that. 
Sharingan could not keep up with The number of attacks



Troyse22 said:


> If Kisame sees a ton of FRS flying his way, guess what he does.
> 
> Daikodan.


Naruto uses LOS feints kisame won't have time to weave against a FRS


Troyse22 said:


> That shit would outright kill Naruto, unless you're telling me he can tank the power of Kisames Daikodan plus a shit ton of his FRS.


Bunta jumps over the AOE  daikodan

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

@oetsuthebest , about your sig , is that your friend's Bar mitzvah or something ??


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 6, 2017)

Kisame evolves from  Piseces to Amphibian

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> I'm not , this is how i debate , you can't tell people to stop being who they are
> 
> Ok , so what ??
> Are you trying to say , Kisame will absorb Naruto's chakra in CQC ? not only can you not prove that but also
> ...



I'll enjoy verbally raping you when I'm on lunch or when I get home


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

I smell a concession , ain't that so @professor83 ??


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 6, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> I smell a concession , ain't that so @professor83 ??


Yup 
Nothing suggests otherwise

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Feb 6, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> @oetsuthebest , about your sig , is that your friend's Bar mitzvah or something ??



That's a gif from a song i like




Troyse22 said:


> @oetsuthebest you gonna need another report and warning from a mod? Keep dislike spamming and see how long you stick around.



Sorry they slipped, i'll take them back

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Yup
> Nothing suggests otherwise


We basically commandeered this thread

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's a shame I couldn't address you tonight @WorldsStrongest and @HandfullofNaruto but...lactose intolerance+a ton of cheese stuffed taco's from tacp bell don't mix.
> 
> If I don't die from dehydration and pain i'll have a response up tomorrow


Go ahead and take your time - I like where this is going I feel like you and I are finally making some progress.


*Spoiler*: _HoN most recent argument_ 





Troyse22 said:


> This paragraph is pretty pointless, Amaterasu has to travel, it doesn't actually just hit whatever the target has sighted regardless of Zetsu's statement. This is backed by Itachi's Ama having a travel time to reach Sasuke, Sasuke's Ama only hitting Bee after traveling and Sasuke's Ama missing because V2 AAAA actually DODGED that shit. It's not instantaneous.


If the target is moving (sasuke had a head-start and was already running yet still got caught by blind as fucking shit Itachi (I'm ready to say Itachi is a sensor because shit he is so fucking blind.)) or can react to the spawn (A4 fastest man in the world lost his arm to Amaterasu - even when an opponent can dodge the flames it can still be effective in battle) then they will be safe from Amaterasu (well #1 doesn't always work and #2 doesn't mean you wont get caught up later on). Kisame isn't exactly a speedster and his fighting style doesn't allow him to stay on the move constantly which is his only option considering he lacks the speed to properly react and dodge. It is safe to say that Amaterasu will land on Kisame before he & Samehada can react. I never said that Amaterasu was instantaneous - just that Kisame & Samehada would get caught in the Jutsu .. I'm assuming you must have instantaneous attacks if you're going to down Kisame though .. right? I suppose its is up for speculation but I doubt that Samehada would be able to deal with the pain from Amaterasu while also trying to absorb the chakra it hates from itself and Kisames body (this isn't up for speculation)-- especially before Itachi or Sasuke can close in with an attack.





> We can't just ignore its bad feats. And it has quite a bit of them.


I never said to ignore the terrible feats but not to focus on them when coming to a conclusion. You say that Amaterasus inconsistent feats put it below Madaras Katons yet there is inconsistency with his flames and you should also note the fact that there is a zero percent chance Kishimoto believes Madaras Katons are superior to Amaterasu the fire burning flames. The inconsistent feats weren't to show us that Amaterasu wasn't strong but just laziness on Kishi & Staff's behalf - when we have actual statements about a Jutsu (a rather important one) and multiple feats to back it up it makes no sense to focus on something that we know for a fact was inconsistent .. do you understand what I am getting at?





> Wrong, BT and CT serve different purposes, but the function of the jutsu's is basically the same


Bansho Tennin & Chibaku Tensei having the same gravitational force makes no sense. A Chibaku Tensei core sent hundereds of meters into the air has gravitational force strong enough to rip out the earth and create a crater .. the closer you are to the orb the stronger the force will be so if boulders are being sucked up at high speeds from hundreds of meters away then you know the core has a ridiculously strong gravitational force. If Bansho Tennin had the same amount of force then every time he used it a huge amount of shit would come flying at him. CST & ST don't have the same force BT & CT don't have the same force





> 1. Killer Bee is not Kisame's physical superior, unless we're talking about Bee in full BM
> 2. It's almost universally accepted that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama didn't do shit.
> 3. Well you're right about Pein not using the jutsu, he'd be long dead before he ever got the chance.



V2 Bee is his physical superior / KN8 is V2 Bee's physical superior -- no way is Kisame escaping with brute strength that he lacks completely.
Since when??
Pein Rikudo would rape him with rods and before you go all HurrDurr he can absorb the chakra - that wont really help him with the four rods jammed through his neck & heart.



> If Kisame has formed Waterdome when CT comes out, the rubble that CT attracts will push his water away from the core, Kisame will always be on the outside based on this, and actually cannot get caught in the rubble.


elaborate.. I don't get what you're trying to explain. I'll tell you this though - If Kisame is in Waterdome and Tendo uses Chibaku Tensei (an ooc method for dealing with such jutsu) then the core would already be very close to Kisame (he's at the center of waterdome which is pretty high in the air) .. the waterdome would be immediately super fucked up from the gravitational force and it would draw Kisame in very quickly at this height .. if he releases the jutsu he will be just as fucked but might survive for a little while longer.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2017)

tsunade already said she cannot heal the damage done by FRS yet samehada can 
the same byakuyo that took a direct Omyouton attack and survived. the same omyouton that can even stop ET regen 
the same regen that can survive 2 meteors 

but sure samehada healing>byakuyo despite all evidence to the contrary. hilarious indeed, hilarious


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> V2 Ay and V2 Bee are equal, or V2 Bee is greater in speed. I base this off when they used double lariat on Kisame (Zetsu),* Ay had to go V2*, whereas Bee only had to go V1.


Bold is baseless

And furthermore...



Troyse22 said:


> whereas Bee only had to go V1. In order to use double Lariat successfully, they have to make their speed and strength equal (as seen in the flashback when the candidates to be "B" had to fist bump A to let them know how much strength they would use) then they had to match each others speed, which was always the problem, B (the B we know now) was the only one to succeed in matching Ay's speed.
> 
> Bee is incredibly fast, V2 is essentially Bijuu chakra trapped in humanoid form, this means that V2 Bee should "technically" hit harder than BM Bee (I forget who made this point, i'd like to give them credit as I forgot about, this was a month or two and they gave a much more detailed explanation on it)
> 
> ...


None of this answers my question

Like at all...

I asked you the following...



> Why do you think Kisame can react to teleportation because Bee did (even tho thats not what bee did but lets assume he did just for giggles) and kisame can react to teleportation because he reacted to Bee (even tho thats not what kisame did but lets assume he did just for giggles) ?
> 
> Do you not see the flaw in that logic? You are implying that Bees movement speed is equal to or greater than FTG and kisame reacted to it, thats the only logical way kisame could be considered able to react to FTG is if he reacted to something on a similar level of speed, so when you say _"bee reacted to ftg, kisame reacted to bee, kisame can react to ftg"_ you are saying
> 
> ...



You addressed literally next to none of that

And furthermore...



Troyse22 said:


> V2 B is undoubtedly faster than V2 A.


This...


Troyse22 said:


> V2 A was noted to have speed comparable to Minato's Hiraishin.


And this...


Troyse22 said:


> Logic dictates V2 B should as close to Minato's Hiraishin speed as one could get with Shunshin, with the exception of 8G Gai of course.


And this are just incorrect

Nothing in the verse is comparable to hiraishin in raw speed aside from other teleportation techs like ameno...its literally instant teleportation, instant is another level of speed compared to "holy shit thats fast"

Millions of times FTL is still slower than instant speed and no one in naruto comes close to breaking the light barrier

FTG>>>Insert multi dimensonal gap here>>>8G gai>Rikudo Naruto>>>KCM Naruto>>>V2 A>V2 Bee

Theres a a massive gap between bee and "fastest you can get without hiraishin"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2017)

Lol
Still laughing so hard at bee >Ay in speed 
Despite bee basically admitting to being slower 
And even saying you can't get much faster than Ay 

But hey all in the name of kisame  we shall make shit up

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


>


Yo , man , i don't get the joke , why did they rated your post funny ??


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 6, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Yo , man , i don't get the joke , why did they rated your post funny ??


Cuz of the stuff i quoted from HoN

"just the tip"


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Cuz of the stuff i quoted from HoN
> 
> "just the tip"


Exactly , which is why i still don't get the joke .
Can you explain ?


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## Serene Grace (Feb 6, 2017)

cctr9 said:


> Exactly , which is why i still don't get the joke .
> Can you explain ?


It refers to a girl sucking cock/blowjob. When a girl just wants to suck the tip of your cock because its to big or she had other reasons, she's says "just the tip"

Reactions: Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## Android (Feb 6, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> It refers to a girl sucking cock/blowjob. When a girl just wants to suck the tip of your cock, she's says "just the tip"


Ohhhh , i see now 
@WorldsStrongest , @HandfullofNaruto , you naughty boys

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Jackalinthebox (Feb 6, 2017)

How much damage do you think Kisame would take from each of these Rasengan individually? 

 negged with genjutsu the same way sasuke handled manda
 negged with genjutsu the same way sasuke handled manda
 negged with genjutsu the same way sasuke handled manda


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> negged with genjutsu the same way sasuke handled manda



None, he either dodges or blocks and absorbs with Samehada.




Jackalinthebox said:


> negged with genjutsu the same way sasuke handled manda



None, he either dodges or blocks and absorbs with Samehada.



Jackalinthebox said:


> negged with genjutsu the same way sasuke handled manda



None, he either dodges or blocks and absorbs with Samehada.


If you want to know how much damage he takes if he's ALLOWING Minato to hit him, then probably more than enough for him to feel all of these, but die or be brought near death? Nah

Maybe if it's a Rasengan to the face it would kill him, but anywhere else no.

Not that Minato would ever get the chance in a battle.

It takes Hirudora levels of power to bring Kisame down, with Samehada, anything outside of a 1 shot can be healed from.


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## Jackalinthebox (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> None, he either dodges or blocks and absorbs with Samehada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You think Kisame is so fast that he'd dodge or block any and all of Minato's cqc attacks in a fight?

I was just asking how much damage he'd take if he was actually hit with them though. In the chest for instance

Reactions: Like 1


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## Suoh (Feb 6, 2017)

Who is the weakest person who can beat kisame simply because he/she is stronger, not because of matchup


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

Suoh said:


> Who is the weakest person who can beat kisame simply because he/she is stronger, not because of matchup



Nagato can go either way.

Hanzo can best him more times than not due to bad matchup, the dude literally fucking breathes poison, something that gets through Kisames durability.


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Nagato can go either way.
> 
> Hanzo can best him more times than not due to bad matchup, the dude literally fucking breathes poison, something that gets through Kisames durability.



But if Kisame can fuse with Samehada and be immune to Poison, how does Hanzo beat him?


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## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2017)

Bonly said:


> But if Kisame can fuse with Samehada and be immune to Poison, how does Hanzo beat him?



Tough question 

Seeing that all manga evidence points to samehada being poison immune 
When even edo tensei aren't


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 7, 2017)

I am sure with kisame bijju level strength he can create shockwave swinging samehada to dispel all the poison .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Android (Feb 7, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I am sure with kisame bijju level strength he can create shockwave swinging samehada to dispel all the poison .


Maybe even create a new Samehada with his regeneration that surpassed that of RSM Naruto's Yin-Yang release

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

Bonly said:


> But if Kisame can fuse with Samehada and be immune to Poison, how does Hanzo beat him?



Hanzo's poison works by inhaling it as opposed to it getting inside of your blood, like Sasori's.

Samehada has never been pierced or even brought near death, Kisame turns into a durability monster when merged. But all of this is non factor when Kisame still needs to breathe (what would be the purpose of his gills if he didn't). If Kisame popped his venom sac, it would emit such an area of poison that Kisame cannot escape. And of course, Ibuse can breathe even more poison. This is similar to Sasori's though, but the quantity of poison Ibuse can produce is much, much larger than Sasori can produce. 

Hanzo also possesses Kenjutsu skill that exceeds Mifune's and rivals Kisame's. If he can take on Mifune+a shitload of Samurai, then he's roughly on par with Kisame. CQC would do nothing but put pretty much kill Kisame if Hanzo takes off his mask. 

Anyways, Hanzo beats Kisame 9/10 times, I can't think of any IC scenario's that Kisame wins.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hanzo's poison works by inhaling it as opposed to it getting inside of your blood, like Sasori's.
> 
> Samehada has never been pierced or even brought near death, Kisame turns into a durability monster when merged. But all of this is non factor when Kisame still needs to breathe (what would be the purpose of his gills if he didn't). If Kisame popped his venom sac, it would emit such an area of poison that Kisame cannot escape. And of course, Ibuse can breathe even more poison. This is similar to Sasori's though, but the quantity of poison Ibuse can produce is much, much larger than Sasori can produce.
> 
> ...



Wtf? 

Waterdome shits on those gas based poison. 


Also, Sasuke stopped Mifune's slash as well, wouldn't that mean Sasuke > Kisame in kenjutsu also? 

Sasori also has gas based poison as well, not just needles, so according to you, Sasori would also win because of it.


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## Bonly (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hanzo's poison works by inhaling it as opposed to it getting inside of your blood, like Sasori's.



Actually Hanzo uses poison on his scythe just like Sasori uses poison his weapons which means he poisons people via the blood, the only poison he has that's a gas is Ibuse just like how Sasori has some poison gas so they are similar. So as long as Kisame is fused with Samehada he should be fine against Hanzo until it comes Ibuse but depending on how the poison gas is used, couldn't Kisame just use his Doton to go underground to avoid it?



> Samehada has never been pierced or even brought near death, Kisame turns into a durability monster when merged. But all of this is non factor when Kisame still needs to breathe (what would be the purpose of his gills if he didn't). If Kisame popped his venom sac, it would emit such an area of poison that Kisame cannot escape. And of course, Ibuse can breathe even more poison. This is similar to Sasori's though, but the quantity of poison Ibuse can produce is much, much larger than Sasori can produce.



Ah I see.



> Hanzo also possesses Kenjutsu skill that exceeds Mifune's and rivals Kisame's.



They seemed to be pretty even to me, well until Mifune did this(notice how he cut through steel without the aid of chakra to enhance his blade) and seeing as how Mifune's skill is so good that with pure Kenjutsu he can stop others from using Ninjutsu and what not, what makes you think that Hanzo's skill exceeds Mifune's?



> If he can take on Mifune+a shitload of Samurai, then he's roughly on par with Kisame. CQC would do nothing but put pretty much kill Kisame if Hanzo takes off his mask.
> 
> Anyways, Hanzo beats Kisame 9/10 times, I can't think of any IC scenario's that Kisame wins.



Hanzo never fought a shitload of Samurai. After Hanzo poisoned Kankuro and the group he went to attack and was met by Mifune right away and the two of them exclusive fought each other so Hanzo didn't fight a bunch of Samurai, he only fought Mifune and he ended up on the losing side of things before he got talked no jutsu and poisoned himself.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 7, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Also, Sasuke stopped Mifune's slash as well, wouldn't that mean Sasuke > Kisame in kenjutsu also?


Sasuke very likely could ("could", not saying "is") be more skilled in kenjutsu than kisame

I mean, what kenjutsu feats does kisame have that werent all attributed to brute force?


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## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2017)

But mifune beat Hanzo in cqc
How is Hanzo > mifune


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Wtf?
> 
> Waterdome shits on those gas based poison.
> 
> ...



I said Ibuse emits more poison than Sasori, I was referring to the gas.

Sasoris gas only covered about a 15x15 area, hardly anything impressive.

As for Waterdome, the chance of Kisame popping Hanzos venom sack whilst bombarding him with powerful strikes is a very real threat, and the water will not instantly disperse the poison. It would take a couple of seconds.



Bonly said:


> Actually Hanzo uses poison on his scythe just like Sasori uses poison his weapons which means he poisons people via the blood, the only poison he has that's a gas is Ibuse just like how Sasori has some poison gas so they are similar. So as long as Kisame is fused with Samehada he should be fine against Hanzo until it comes Ibuse but depending on how the poison gas is used, couldn't Kisame just use his Doton to go underground to avoid it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hanzo actually breathes poison though, hence why he always wears a gas mask so he doesn't kill everyone around him


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

And for those asking, I was referring to Prime Hanzo beating young Mifune. 

I get that Mifune beating Hanzo was supposed to be kind of symbolic, showing Mifune's growth in Kenjutsu, but realistically, had Hanzo been alive for all those decades, actively training like Mifune, then he would still beat him. 

It's pretty much agreed that had Hanzo kept training and not gotten rusty, he would've taken Pein down with high difficulty. Do you think Mifune would stand any kind of chance against Pein


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## Bonly (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hanzo actually breathes poison though, hence why he always wears a gas mask so he doesn't kill everyone around him



Hanzo can't take off his mask against skilled ninja as he runs the risk of being left wide open if his sac is hit. Are you saying that Young Mifune is more skilled then Kisame


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## Sapherosth (Feb 7, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke very likely could ("could", not saying "is") be more skilled in kenjutsu than kisame
> 
> I mean, what kenjutsu feats does kisame have that werent all attributed to brute force?




He has nothing. 

In fact, he was on par with Asuma in part 1 and got disarmed by Gai in part 2.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's pretty much agreed that had Hanzo kept training and not gotten rusty, he would've taken Pein down with high difficulty


woah since when?? is this true?? imma create a poll & check this out.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 7, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> woah since when?? is this true?? imma create a poll & check this out.


Jman was surprised any shinobi could have taken down Hanzo, i dont think its implicated Hanzo would have won if he had trained more tho, if anything Hanzo would have gotten way worse had he lived longer, hed age and leave his prime and his skills would suffer for it.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jman was surprised any shinobi could have taken down Hanzo, i dont think its implicated Hanzo would have won if he had trained more tho, if anything Hanzo would have gotten way worse had he lived longer, hed age and leave his prime and his skills would suffer for it.




Hanzo was just as old as Mifune, who improved with age.

Hanzo himself was floored that he lost.
Jiraiya was shocked.

It's clear Hanzo that hadn't gotten rusty would have beat Pein, or put up one hell of a battle. 

It was noted that he became so paranoid that he didn't even train anymore. Lack of training is a severe weakness.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> He has nothing.
> 
> In fact, he was on par with Asuma in part 1 and got disarmed by Gai in part 2.


And then proceeded to troll one of the best Kenjutsu users in the verse in CQC.

Kisame also has his hype as the most fearsome of the SOTM


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## Parallaxis (Feb 7, 2017)

Alright, my question is, how the hell does Kisame's feats put him about Juudara's reactions?
And the Hirudora argument is false, because...

- Hirudora is an air cannon. Being fired underwater would nerf it.
- There was a massive distance between Kisame and Gai.
- Madara actually did react,  but still felt it.

Now if we look at Juudara's reaction feats..

- A weaker version with EMS Sasuke
- A weaker version smacks Tobirama around in CQC [][][]
- Takes a 's blitz
- Dodges 7G Gai's consecutive punches []
- Reacts to 
- Reacts to literally the fastest attack in this manga []
- Reacts to 
- Reacts 

So, like you said, by feats only, Juudara's reactions are still better than Kisame's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> And then proceeded to troll one of the best Kenjutsu users in the verse in CQC.
> 
> Kisame also has his hype as the most fearsome of the SOTM





He didn't troll Killer Bee's sword play. In fact, he trolled nothing about taijutsu at all considering the fact that he got his chest blown apart. 

The only time he held the advantage in CQC was when Killer Bee was under water and protecting others.

He also didn't get any hype as the "most fearsome of the SOTM". Mangetsu did for being able to wield all of the swords.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 7, 2017)

Let's be honest here. If Bee had used his acrobatics, Kisame would be sliced up into little bits, considering the fact that his acrobatics overwhelmed even sasuke in CQC with his sharingan on.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> And then proceeded to troll one of the best Kenjutsu users in the verse in CQC.


As sassafras said, kisame didnt troll anything about bees kenjutsu

If kisame fought bee in kenjustu only, kisame would get annihilated

Kisame countered a V1 lariat and got his chest destroyed by a V2 lariat...wheres the "trolling"???


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 7, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> So, like you said, by feats only, Juudara's reactions are still better than Kisame's.


And literally dimensions better by portrayal and...well...logic


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> He didn't troll Killer Bee's sword play. In fact, he trolled nothing about taijutsu at all considering the fact that he got his chest blown apart.
> 
> The only time he held the advantage in CQC was when Killer Bee was under water and protecting others.
> 
> He also didn't get any hype as the "most fearsome of the SOTM". Mangetsu did for being able to wield all of the swords.



Shinobi that wields the power on par with Bijuu>Mangetsu

Do I need to get the scan of Kisame stalemating Bee when Bee went to headbutt him, something Kin thought would KO Kisame.

Or Bee being sent flying through the air by Kisame?

Or Bee getting ragdolled in Waterdome?

I mean, this stuff is general knowledge. The only time Bee even landed an actual damaging hit on Kisame was with a V2 Lariat, he got trolled the entire fight besides that moment.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> As sassafras said, kisame didnt troll anything about bees kenjutsu
> 
> If kisame fought bee in kenjustu only, kisame would get annihilated
> 
> Kisame countered a V1 lariat and got his chest destroyed by a V2 lariat...wheres the "trolling"???



Nah Kisame ain't getting annihilated in a Kenjutsu only battle. Bee would need to stab Kisame right through the skull in order to do anything noteworthy, and as seen when Kisame dodged a blindside attack *insert scan here* he has very good reactions. Bee won't be touching him, whereas Samehada is so huge, Bee can't realistically hope to dodge it and stay on the offense. He either blocks and gets overwhelmed by Kisame's superior physical strength, or he dodges and runs his ass back to the Cloud to save himself.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Alright, my question is, how the hell does Kisame's feats put him about Juudara's reactions?
> And the Hirudora argument is false, because...
> 
> - Hirudora is an air cannon. Being fired underwater would nerf it.
> ...



I saw that viscosity argument, it's stupid and invalid, to assume Kishi was thinking about the exact density of the water and how much it would slow Hirudora down is ridiculous to say the least. Shinobi defy laws of physics all of the time, Gai was pushing all of the oceans water off of himself, do you think that's realistic? Dumb.

The Hirudora argument is perfectly valid, Gai would have noted that his Hirudora would be much slower underwater had that been Kishi's intent. Madara still got hit by it, Kisame had the reactionary speed to use his own trump card. Kisame got hit by it, but he still reacted in a more notable way than Madara.

The distance was sizable, but when using insanely fast techs, distance means almost nothing.

Madara got raped by the first step of Sekizo what the fuck. Dude legit said if he took a few more of those he'd die.

Goddamn Madara is flexible...sexy af

I mean...cool

But still, reacting to Minato is something that Kisame could do since Bee did it. 

Kabuto was reacting to EMS Sasuke casually, do you think SM Kabuto=JJ Mads?

Reacting to Gai's 7G punches isn't a feat worth mentioning, Gai seemed to just run in at him to feel him out to see if he truly needed to go into the 8th Gate. We've seen Gai be far more agile than he was in those moments you're talking about IN BASE. He ran in Tsunade style there, and idk why.

The rest is irrelevant, lower tiers have done comparable things.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Nah Kisame ain't getting annihilated in a Kenjutsu only battle. Bee would need to stab Kisame right through the skull in order to do anything noteworthy, *and as seen when Kisame dodged a blindside attack *insert scan here* he has very good reactions. Bee won't be touching him*


Bee would decimate kisame in kenjutsu only champ...that should be blatantly obvious...

1. A stab wound anywhere is gonna hurt kisame, dont know where this "headshot only" BS is coming from, in kenjutsu only, bee would give him no chakra, which means no healing for kisame

2. Bee can tag that ass with neg diff, sasuke who is tiers faster than kisame couldnt keep up with Bees acrobat with his 3T active...3T sasuke >>> Kisame in reactions and speed and he still got skewered...kisame suffers the same fate far earlier in the fight



Troyse22 said:


> whereas Samehada is so huge


Which hurts kisame big time here, hed be able to parry little to none of bees attacks due to his cumbersome weapon

Dont give a shit how strong kisame is, he has never wielded samehada with anywhere near the same finesse or speed that taka sasuke did against bee, and sasuke still got outplayed...ergo...

Kisames a pin cushion before long...same as sauske only it happens to kisame faster



Troyse22 said:


> Bee can't realistically hope to dodge it and stay on the offense.


Sure he can, thats the beauty of his acrobat style, he has blades all over his body, he can attack and dodge at virtually the same time and his opponent will have no idea which blade hes gonna use to attack until its too late, acrobat has so much shit going on even a master swordsman AT MINIMUM on kisames level (id say sasuke is more skilled honestly, he has better kenjutsu feats) WITH sharingan mastery on top of that cant effectively read bees style...kisame doesnt have a chance in hell

It also doesnt help kisame that his opponent is far faster than he is



Troyse22 said:


> He either blocks and gets overwhelmed by Kisame's superior physical strength


Kisame aint that physically superior to bee...Bee held suigetsu down casually with one hand using a lightweight weapon...

Id say they pretty close in physical strength

No one is "Overwhelming" the other here in that category



Troyse22 said:


> or he dodges


And proceeds to sidestep kisames slow af clumsy weapon and put 3 blades in kisames chest cavity and 2 in his face

Bee is hella faster than kisame can move thats for sure


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## Azula (Feb 8, 2017)

What is the limit for Samehada's durability.



Troyse22 said:


> Samehada has never been pierced or even brought near death



Bee's lariat sent pieces of samehada flying off. 

Now samehada softened the blow somewhat by absorbing chakra but

What will happen if samehada is hit with something it can't absorb, let's say Gamabunta's sword.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 8, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> What is the limit for Samehada's durability.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Not just pieces flying off. 

I remember seeing a *HOLE* in Samehada after that blow.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Azula (Feb 8, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Not just pieces flying off.
> 
> I remember seeing a *HOLE* in Samehada after that blow.



In manga? I must check.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> What is the limit for Samehada's durability.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Buntas sword does nothing.

Being sent flying is irrelevant, it suffered no damage.



Sapherosth said:


> Not just pieces flying off.
> 
> I remember seeing a *HOLE* in Samehada after that blow.



Lol...My sides


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## Sapherosth (Feb 8, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> In manga? I must check.





Troyse22 said:


> Buntas sword does nothing.
> 
> Being sent flying is irrelevant, it suffered no damage.
> 
> ...




Fuck outta here Troyse. I know probably know Kisame better than you.


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## Azula (Feb 8, 2017)

Hmm so this is the page in question.



It does look like a hole and samehada's bleeding, but it can also be Kisame's blood if we suppose samehada remained intact.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 8, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Hmm so this is the page in question.
> 
> 
> 
> It does look like a hole and samehada's bleeding, but it can also be Kisame's blood if we suppose samehada remained intact.




That's a hole in Samehada no matter how you look at it. If it was "Kisame's blood", it would've been a splash, not a circle. It makes sense that Killer Bee's V2 strike went right through Samehada and straight at Kisame.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

Looks like blood, considering Kisames entire midsection was blown out.

You're an idiot if you think that's a hole


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## Parallaxis (Feb 8, 2017)

1. It was only cctr9 who started talking about viscosity and crap. It's a universally known fact that
Things travel sloer underwater...

2. I'll provide the scans, but gai
Was literally in madras face when he used AT
However he was a huge distance away for kisame

Distance does mean something
Which would Usain bolt run faster
A 50m dash or a 5k marathon. If the speeds are equal it will take a longer time to travel a longer distance. Simple concept

3. Madara did react to the 1st step.he formed the tsb shield
But that was countered by gai flanking him around the shield

4. Madara saying he would die was proved wrong when he later survived all 5 hits
And survived night guy


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## Icegaze (Feb 8, 2017)

samehada has a tongue, is a tongue an organ?  me thinks so

edo tensei are not immune to genjutsu, not immune to poison but samehada who is more alive than a revived person is immune to those things

the wonders of a trolls mind


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## Android (Feb 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> 1. It was only cctr9 who started talking about viscosity and crap. It's a universally known fact that


My whole point was that things travel slower under water .
Only an idiot would claim otherwise


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> 1. It was only cctr9 who started talking about viscosity and crap. It's a universally known fact that
> Things travel sloer underwater...
> 
> 2. I'll provide the scans, but gai
> ...




Would be foolish to assume things don't travel slower underwater.

But do you guys think Kishi actually sits there and does a bunch of research into this stuff?

Only an idiot would think he does


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## Sapherosth (Feb 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Looks like blood, considering Kisames entire midsection was blown out.
> 
> You're an idiot if you think that's a hole




Only an idiot would say that isn't a hole. You can even see the shade of it. 




PhantomSage said:


> 1. It was only cctr9 who started talking about viscosity and crap. It's a universally known fact that
> Things travel sloer underwater...
> 
> 2. I'll provide the scans, but gai
> ...




Kishi doesn't think it through. Just look at this




and this 






These are the instances where they can TALK inside water. That's logically impossible.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Only an idiot would say that isn't a hole. You can even see the shade of it.



Only an idiot would say that's a hole.

It looks like blood and it makes perfect sense that it would be blood. 

Gonna have to agree to disagree, cause i'm not doing this back and forth trash.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> And survived night guy



Lol, barely.


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## t0xeus (Feb 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Lol, barely.


An immortal being survived barely? He was perfectly fine and could have survived 20 Night Gais at once unless Naruto and Sasuke were waiting on the sides to seal him during his regeneration.



Troyse22 said:


> Do I need to get the scan of Kisame stalemating Bee when Bee went to headbutt him, something Kin thought would KO Kisame.


That was before they figured out that Samehada's sucking KB's chakra away. Kin thought Kisame is getting full-powered V1 KB headbutt, but before KB's head reached Kisame's, Killer Bee was already in base.

And we know Killer Bee's strength in base is nothing exceptional, at least compared to Kisame.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 14, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> An immortal being survived barely? He was perfectly fine and could have survived 20 Night Gais at once unless Naruto and Sasuke were waiting on the sides to seal him during his regeneration.


Ummmm...

I highly doubt that bro...

Mads himself stated that Yagai nearly killed him...he wouldnt have a chance against an attack literally 20 times stronger...

Hed live 20 yagais back to back tho...as he has proven he can regen from them just fine, but not 20 simultaneously

Hell no to that


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## t0xeus (Feb 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ummmm...
> 
> I highly doubt that bro...
> 
> ...


It was an exaggeration, I just mean that it's impossible to kill him by usual methods.

Also I confused him with post-Shinju-tree absorption Madara who could regen half of his body in seconds, my bad.


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2017)

can someone explain to me how samehada is immune to poison when edo tensei are not.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> can someone explain to me how samehada is immune to poison when edo tensei are not.



I did address that earlier actually, you can go back a page or 2 and check it out.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I did address that earlier actually, you can go back a page or 2 and check it out.


Just curious - do you plan to continue our debate on this thread or are you going to abandon it? I'm not going to rush you but I don't want you to just forget about it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Just curious - do you plan to continue our debate on this thread or are you going to abandon it? I'm not going to rush you but I don't want you to just forget about it.



Sorry did I miss something?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

professor83 said:


> *The thread where Troyse22 addressed nothing regarding Kisame/Samehada*



Reported, considering there's 7 pages worth of content. Don't troll my threads. Thank you for your cooperation.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sorry did I miss something?


Yea - you got some taco bell and forgot to address my post lol. Ill go find it.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yea - you got some taco bell and forgot to address my post lol. Ill go find it.



Perhaps I missed it when discussing the blood/hole in Samehada thing

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's a shame I couldn't address you tonight @WorldsStrongest and @HandfullofNaruto but...lactose intolerance+a ton of cheese stuffed taco's from tacp bell don't mix.
> 
> If I don't die from dehydration and pain i'll have a response up tomorrow


Go ahead and take your time - I like where this is going I feel like you and I are finally making some progress.


*Spoiler*: _HoN most recent argument_ 





Troyse22 said:


> This paragraph is pretty pointless, Amaterasu has to travel, it doesn't actually just hit whatever the target has sighted regardless of Zetsu's statement. This is backed by Itachi's Ama having a travel time to reach Sasuke, Sasuke's Ama only hitting Bee after traveling and Sasuke's Ama missing because V2 AAAA actually DODGED that shit. It's not instantaneous.


If the target is moving (sasuke had a head-start and was already running yet still got caught by blind as fucking shit Itachi (I'm ready to say Itachi is a sensor because shit he is so fucking blind.)) or can react to the spawn (A4 fastest man in the world lost his arm to Amaterasu - even when an opponent can dodge the flames it can still be effective in battle) then they will be safe from Amaterasu (well #1 doesn't always work and #2 doesn't mean you wont get caught up later on). Kisame isn't exactly a speedster and his fighting style doesn't allow him to stay on the move constantly which is his only option considering he lacks the speed to properly react and dodge. It is safe to say that Amaterasu will land on Kisame before he & Samehada can react. I never said that Amaterasu was instantaneous - just that Kisame & Samehada would get caught in the Jutsu .. I'm assuming you must have instantaneous attacks if you're going to down Kisame though .. right? I suppose its is up for speculation but I doubt that Samehada would be able to deal with the pain from Amaterasu while also trying to absorb the chakra it hates from itself and Kisames body (this isn't up for speculation)-- especially before Itachi or Sasuke can close in with an attack.





> We can't just ignore its bad feats. And it has quite a bit of them.


I never said to ignore the terrible feats but not to focus on them when coming to a conclusion. You say that Amaterasus inconsistent feats put it below Madaras Katons yet there is inconsistency with his flames and you should also note the fact that there is a zero percent chance Kishimoto believes Madaras Katons are superior to Amaterasu the fire burning flames. The inconsistent feats weren't to show us that Amaterasu wasn't strong but just laziness on Kishi & Staff's behalf - when we have actual statements about a Jutsu (a rather important one) and multiple feats to back it up it makes no sense to focus on something that we know for a fact was inconsistent .. do you understand what I am getting at?





> Wrong, BT and CT serve different purposes, but the function of the jutsu's is basically the same


Bansho Tennin & Chibaku Tensei having the same gravitational force makes no sense. A Chibaku Tensei core sent hundereds of meters into the air has gravitational force strong enough to rip out the earth and create a crater .. the closer you are to the orb the stronger the force will be so if boulders are being sucked up at high speeds from hundreds of meters away then you know the core has a ridiculously strong gravitational force. If Bansho Tennin had the same amount of force then every time he used it a huge amount of shit would come flying at him. CST & ST don't have the same force BT & CT don't have the same force





> 1. Killer Bee is not Kisame's physical superior, unless we're talking about Bee in full BM
> 2. It's almost universally accepted that Itachi's Yasaka Magatama didn't do shit.
> 3. Well you're right about Pein not using the jutsu, he'd be long dead before he ever got the chance.



V2 Bee is his physical superior / KN8 is V2 Bee's physical superior -- no way is Kisame escaping with brute strength that he lacks completely.
Since when??
Pein Rikudo would rape him with rods and before you go all HurrDurr he can absorb the chakra - that wont really help him with the four rods jammed through his neck & heart.



> If Kisame has formed Waterdome when CT comes out, the rubble that CT attracts will push his water away from the core, Kisame will always be on the outside based on this, and actually cannot get caught in the rubble.


elaborate.. I don't get what you're trying to explain. I'll tell you this though - If Kisame is in Waterdome and Tendo uses Chibaku Tensei (an ooc method for dealing with such jutsu) then the core would already be very close to Kisame (he's at the center of waterdome which is pretty high in the air) .. the waterdome would be immediately super fucked up from the gravitational force and it would draw Kisame in very quickly at this height .. if he releases the jutsu he will be just as fucked but might survive for a little while longer.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If the target is moving (sasuke had a head-start and was already running yet still got caught by blind as fucking shit Itachi (I'm ready to say Itachi is a sensor because shit he is so fucking blind.)) or can react to the spawn (A4 fastest man in the world lost his arm to Amaterasu - even when an opponent can dodge the flames it can still be effective in battle) then they will be safe from Amaterasu (well #1 doesn't always work and #2 doesn't mean you wont get caught up later on).



A4 didn't lose his arm to a targeted Amaterasu, he lost when Sasuke covered his Susanoo with it, because Sasuke knew he couldn't even react to the Raikage's speed. 



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Kisame isn't exactly a speedster and his fighting style doesn't allow him to stay on the move constantly which is his only option considering he lacks the speed to properly react and dodge. It is safe to say that Amaterasu will land on Kisame before he & Samehada can react. I never said that Amaterasu was instantaneous - just that Kisame & Samehada would get caught in the Jutsu



It's irrelevant if Kisame or Samehada are hit with Amaterasu, which they probably will be at some point. You're right about Kisame not being a speedster (he can't run as fast as A4 or V2 Bee for example) but he can react to them unlike Sasuke.

Kisame can either place Samehada wherever Amaterasu has hit him or if Samehada is hit with it, it can absorb it. I've addressed the Amaterasu vs Samehada thing multiple times, but I will do it again to uphold the purpose of this thread.



No where do we see Samehada actually having trouble absorbing Katon. The only indication made is that it hated it. If Samehada actually didn't manage to absorb it, you'd have a point, but you don't.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'm assuming you must have instantaneous attacks if you're going to down Kisame though .. right?




I've stated before the things you need to take Kisame down.

1. Insane non chakra based D/C and the speed at which to deliver it (Hirudora, V2 Lariat)
2. The ability to outright ignore Kisame's durability and the means at which to deliver it

If the attack is instant, but chakra based on not a one shot, it's not going to KO/kill Kisame.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> I never said to ignore the terrible feats but not to focus on them when coming to a conclusion. You say that Amaterasus inconsistent feats put it below Madaras Katons yet there is inconsistency with his flames and you should also note the fact that there is a zero percent chance Kishimoto believes Madaras Katons are superior to Amaterasu the fire burning flames.



That's interesting. It's hard to give Kishi's words the benefit of the doubt in this case. He did a horrible job at maintaining the consistency of Amaterasu. He'd need to provide a valid reason as to why Amaterasu> Mads' Katon. If he just came out and said Amaterasu> Mads' Katon without providing a reason outside of what we've seen in the manga, then it's not good enough. If he said that and provided a solid reason as to why, then I would reluctantly concede this argument, but what we've seen in the manga is not good enough to justify Amaterasu>Mads' stronger Katon.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Bansho Tennin & Chibaku Tensei having the same gravitational force makes no sense. A Chibaku Tensei core sent hundereds of meters into the air has gravitational force strong enough to rip out the earth and create a crater .. the closer you are to the orb the stronger the force will be so if boulders are being sucked up at high speeds from hundreds of meters away then you know the core has a ridiculously strong gravitational force. If Bansho Tennin had the same amount of force then every time he used it a huge amount of shit would come flying at him. CST & ST don't have the same force BT & CT don't have the same force



BT has enough gravitational force to rip out earth and create a crater provided it's aimed at the ground, this paragraph is kind of pointless.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> V2 Bee is his physical superior / KN8 is V2 Bee's physical superior -- no way is Kisame escaping with brute strength that he lacks completely.



I disagree.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Pein Rikudo would rape him with rods and before you go all HurrDurr he can absorb the chakra - that wont really help him with the four rods jammed through his neck & heart.



Kisame has survived having his chest blown out, he can survive chakra rods piercing him.

10-20 seconds of 4 chakra rods being in him and Nagato will be dead from lack of chakra. Kisame realizing the paths are all dead/not moving removes the rods and heals from Samehada.

Kisame and Samehada go home and smoke a fat blunt



HandfullofNaruto said:


> elaborate.. I don't get what you're trying to explain.



I see, the explanation is complex.

Drop a heavy rock in a bathtub full of water, does the water stay under the rock, or does the rock push the water away? The answer would be it pushes the water away, the same applies to CT, except on a much larger scale.


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hanzo's poison works by inhaling it as opposed to it getting inside of your blood, like Sasori's.
> 
> Samehada has never been pierced or even brought near death, Kisame turns into a durability monster when merged. But all of this is non factor when Kisame still needs to breathe (what would be the purpose of his gills if he didn't). If Kisame popped his venom sac, it would emit such an area of poison that Kisame cannot escape. And of course, Ibuse can breathe even more poison. This is similar to Sasori's though, but the quantity of poison Ibuse can produce is much, much larger than Sasori can produce.
> 
> ...



So in short samehada isnt immune to poison or is immune? really a yes or no sort of question. 

can kisame regen poison? just wondering cuz edo tensei cant, so just curious if you think samehada by passess poison all together. 

again simple yes or no sort of question


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> So in short samehada isnt immune to poison or is immune? sounds like quite abit of blab




Isn't, but poisoning Kisame when merged with Samehada by piercing him is next to impossible


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

Pseudo immunity if you will Icegaze


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Isn't, but poisoning Kisame when merged with Samehada by piercing him is next to impossible



why is it next to impossible? due to his supposed durability or speed underwater?

i dont remember kisame being cut proof, if anything kunai can pierce him and easily at that as shown


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> why is it next to impossible? due to his supposed durability or speed underwater?
> 
> i dont remember kisame being cut proof, if anything kunai can pierce him and easily at that as shown




Kisame inherits durability from Samehada. I'm aware Know isame himself is prone to cuts and piercing, but when merged, this weakness is gone


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame inherits durability from Samehada. I'm aware Know isame himself is prone to cuts and piercing, but when merged, this weakness is gone



oh kk, we assuming samehada is durable thanks to all its feats. i dont recall it ever tanking anything. it hasnt even clashed against a weapon of any sort. 

though if you mean lariat i would think absorbing a good portion of bee chakra would weaken the attack no. unless you think crippled nagato>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>samehada in durability and thus by proxy kisame. 

btw are you saying samehada is more durable than kisame?


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## Troyse22 (Feb 15, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> oh kk, we assuming samehada is durable thanks to all its feats. i dont recall it ever tanking anything. it hasnt even clashed against a weapon of any sort.





Except it tanked V2 Lariat.

Bee stabbed it with his sword but nothing happened.

It clashed with Kubikiri with no damage made evident.

And on and on...



Icegaze said:


> btw are you saying samehada is more durable than kisame?



I'm saying it doesn't have the same weakness that Kisame does to piercing/cutting power.

Edit: We know Kisame has insane pain tolerance and exceptional durability to blunt force, but his weakness has always been cutting/piercing power


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> A4 didn't lose his arm to a targeted Amaterasu, he lost when Sasuke covered his Susanoo with it, because Sasuke knew he couldn't even react to the Raikage's speed.


That's why I noted the fact Amaterasu can still be effective even if the opponent is fast enough to dodge it. 





> It's irrelevant if Kisame or Samehada are hit with Amaterasu, which they probably will be at some point. You're right about Kisame not being a speedster (he can't run as fast as A4 or V2 Bee for example) but he can react to them unlike Sasuke.


Sasuke was able to casually react to V1 Ay & while injured he was able to react to V2 Ay and counter his attack with Enton (right before Gaara pulled off that crazy sand speed feat). Kisames reaction to V2 Bee wasn't impressive enough to say he can react to Amaterasu as he only stood there for god knows how many panels watching Killer Bee power up to V2 and once that happens what does he do? He stays standing. Also what is V2 Bee's best speed feat? Is it really enough to say someone can react to Amaterasu? 





> Kisame can either place Samehada wherever Amaterasu has hit him or if Samehada is hit with it, it can absorb it. I've addressed the Amaterasu vs Samehada thing multiple times, but I will do it again to uphold the purpose of this thread.
> 
> No where do we see Samehada actually having trouble absorbing Katon. The only indication made is that it hated it. If Samehada actually didn't manage to absorb it, you'd have a point, but you don't.


I agree that Samehada has the potential to absorb Amaterasu but as you noted it still causes pain (no reason to hate it if its not in some sort of pain). Samehada must deal with the pain from the flames on the blade - the pain that comes with eating the extremely potent Katon Chakra - then eat all the Katon chakra off of Kisame .. and the blade must do this before Itachi or Sasuke can close in with their next attack (if its sasuke enton gg). If you want to go ahead and say that Samehada can do all of this then go ahead but I strongly disagree as everyone has limits in this manga - even kaguya. 





> I've stated before the things you need to take Kisame down.
> 1. Insane non chakra based D/C and the speed at which to deliver it (Hirudora, V2 Lariat)
> 2. The ability to outright ignore Kisame's durability and the means at which to deliver it
> If the attack is instant, but chakra based on not a one shot, it's not going to KO/kill Kisame.


If the attack is instant but chakra based its not a one-shot -- Kisame will survive? Is that what you're saying?





> That's interesting. It's hard to give Kishi's words the benefit of the doubt in this case. He did a horrible job at maintaining the consistency of Amaterasu. He'd need to provide a valid reason as to why Amaterasu> Mads' Katon. If he just came out and said Amaterasu> Mads' Katon without providing a reason outside of what we've seen in the manga, then it's not good enough.


We already know that Amaterasu is superior to Madaras Katon - one is Amaterasu the fire burning fire (no matter what you say or do this has been established with statements and feats / its an important jutsu in this manga and the inconsistent feats aren't there to show us that it's weaker than what it has been _stated_ to be. If it failed to burn Karins jacket and was followed up by a statement like "these flames aren't hot enough, she'll be fine" then you'd have a point but that wasn't kishis intent) and the other is a regular Katon with regular Katon feats.





> BT has enough gravitational force to rip out earth and create a crater provided it's aimed at the ground, this paragraph is kind of pointless.


Bansho Tennin cannot rip out this much earth at this speed from this distance it makes literally zero sense for BT and CT to have the same gravitational force. 





> I disagree.


You disagree with what? That V2 Bee is Kisames physical superior or that KN8 is V2 Bees physical superior? Note even KN8 was having trouble breaking out of CT. Kisame ripping his way out with brute strength -- give me some decent feats. 





> Kisame has survived having his chest blown out, he can survive chakra rods piercing him. 10-20 seconds of 4 chakra rods being in him and Nagato will be dead from lack of chakra. Kisame realizing the paths are all dead/not moving removes the rods and heals from Samehada.


Did you just say Nagato would be squeezed dry of chakra after 20 seconds of absorption? He couldn't even completely drain Aoba who he was draining for like eight panels. If he starts draining chakra they just shove more rods into him. Once they land a rod and he gets the idea to absorb chakra he will have taken more and more rods into the face and chest area.





> Kisame and Samehada go home and smoke a fat blunt


Yea right - Itachi doesn't share .

*I'm going to address Chibaku Tensei vs Waterdome in a separate post - don't want this post to be too clogged*


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## Icegaze (Feb 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Except it tanked V2 Lariat.
> 
> Bee stabbed it with his sword but nothing happened.
> 
> ...



it absrobed V2 lariat though. i mean it eats chakra to claim the full brunt of the attack hit it is rather silly. 
did the full V2 hit nagato?

ok so its as hard as a basic weapon. kunai durability is rather unimpressive , such cracks when it comes in contact with V1 susanoo

so its still rather weak and has neither hype or feats of being able to tank proper cutting attacks that it cannot absorb


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## Troyse22 (Mar 24, 2017)

Bump


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Bump


Then u gonna answer me now? Or...


Troyse22 said:


> It's a shame I couldn't address you tonight @WorldsStrongest and @HandfullofNaruto but...lactose intolerance+a ton of cheese stuffed taco's from tacp bell don't mix.
> 
> If I don't die from dehydration and pain i'll have a response up tomorrow


Are you still dying from taco bell?

Just to make it easier for quoting and whatnot...ill copy and paste my question

That said, @Troyse22 my question to you is...

Why do you think Kisame can react to teleportation because Bee did (even tho thats not what bee did but lets assume he did just for giggles) and kisame can react to teleportation because he reacted to Bee (even tho thats not what kisame did but lets assume he did just for giggles) ?

Do you not see the flaw in that logic? You are implying that Bees movement speed is equal to or greater than FTG and kisame reacted to it, thats the only logical way kisame could be considered able to react to FTG is if he reacted to something on a similar level of speed, so when you say _"bee reacted to ftg, kisame reacted to bee, kisame can react to ftg"_ you are saying

FTG>=<V2 Bee>>>V2 A in speed...which isnt true as we know A is faster than Bee, and we know FTG is far faster than A is

Another problem with this logic...its just blatantly not how reaction speed works...Reaction speed=/=movement speed, if that was the case chidori wouldnt require sharingan to compensate for its speed, and A wouldnt need to augment his reflexes with raiton when using his shroud etc, and equaling someone in one stat doesnt equate to being on par with them in the other, so even if kisame reacted to bees top speed, that doesnt give him access to bees reaction feats...thats just not how it works as the two function entirely different, you can react to something that moves faster than you can move, your movement speed =/= your reaction speed, thats how minato reacted to sekizo and V2 A despite them having a speed advantage.

Furthermore, we have a direct comparison between 2 fighters at literally equal speed yet there is a disparity in their reaction timeas admitted by one of the fighters themselves. Further proving my point that having the same movement speed doesnt mean you have the same reaction speed.

*To summarize my point*, how do you justify giving kisame Bees reaction feats just because kisame can (debatably) react to Bees speed? And how does (debatably) reacting to a V2 Jin mean you can react to FTG which is literally the fastest thing in the verse cuz its instant?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Bump



 Hmm okay, I have a question.

 How does Kisame compete with Itachi in CQC?


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## Troyse22 (Mar 24, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> hy do you think Kisame can react to teleportation because Bee did (even tho thats not what bee did but lets assume he did just for giggles) and kisame can react to teleportation because he reacted to Bee (even tho thats not what kisame did but lets assume he did just for giggles) ?
> 
> Do you not see the flaw in that logic? You are implying that Bees movement speed is equal to or greater than FTG and kisame reacted to it, thats the only logical way kisame could be considered able to react to FTG is if he reacted to something on a similar level of speed, so when you say _"bee reacted to ftg, kisame reacted to bee, kisame can react to ftg"_ you are saying



I'm saying V2 Killer Bee>V2 AAAA>V1 Bee>V1 Ay>Base Bee>Base Ay

AAAA was consistently compared to Minato in terms of speed, based on feats, Killer Bee is faster, the only Shinobi who's "running speed" is faster than Killer Bee's would be Might Gai's based on feats.

I don't give a shit about hype when feats contradict that.

There's only one debater I know of that values portrayal and hype over feats, and surprise surprise they're a washed up has-been Sannin wanking tard.

Not naming names 

Kisame reacted to Bee whos speed is even greater than A4's, just under Might Gai, who's just under Minato.

He should be able to react to Hiraishin if Bee can, since hes reacted to speed comparable to it.

If Bee can do that, so can Kisame based on feats 



UchihaX28 said:


> Hmm okay, I have a question.
> 
> How does Kisame compete with Itachi in CQC?



I can't see Kisame engaging Itachi in CQC, since he knows of his genjutsu.
He'd use the methods i've explained to you to avoid eye contact (method's i've explained to you more than once  )
Only way Itachi wins is lolIzanami, and he won't have time to prep it.


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## Ishmael (Mar 25, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Hmm okay, I have a question.
> 
> How does Kisame compete with Itachi in CQC?



He doesn't, can't keep up, itachi can deal with him weilding samehada and clone feints rape kisame, he has no sharingan or sensory skills to determine a fake from the real deal. Can't keep up with itachis quick reflexes and hand movements or seals. He gets wrecked in cqc. 

Itachi doesn't need genjutsu to beat him in cqc he overwhelms him without it, even if he did use genjutsu doesn't matter if kisame doesn't look in his eyes, itachi doesn't need his eyes to cast it

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm saying V2 Killer Bee>V2 AAAA


Except no...

Whats V2 Bees best speed feat?

I can guarantee its not as impressive as being too fast for MS to track visually...



Troyse22 said:


> V1 Bee>V1 Ay


Honestly still no...

Bee was dodged by an injured sasuke while A fought a fresh sasuke


Troyse22 said:


> Base Bee>Base Ay


This might be true tho

We have no feats for base A to claim otherwise

Its all speculation here



Troyse22 said:


> AAAA was consistently compared to Minato in terms of speed, based on feats, Killer Bee is faster


No...literally no one is faster than minato as he uses FTG which is instant...

Wally fucking West (DC's The Flash...just to clarify) is slower if minato uses FTG

FTL+ speedsters are slower than minatos FTG...

AAAA wasnt compared...he admitted total inferiority...theres a difference

And again...Bee has no feats to put him above V2 A...



Troyse22 said:


> I don't give a shit about hype when feats contradict that.


Im not talking about hype...Bee hasno feats to put him above A...Portrayal and Hype as well as feats are all in A's corner here...he is the faster shinobi...


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame reacted to Bee whos speed is even greater than A4's


No to all of this...

But i know there is no point arguing whether Kisame reacted to Bee or not...so ill save my breath

But as ive said many times now...Bee is not faster than A...so that still makes this point moot...



Troyse22 said:


> just under Might Gai, who's just under Minato.


Gai is nowhere near Minatos speed as minatos speed is instant...

Honestly id hesitate to put Gai over the raikage in terms of speed...He could be faster but its unclear



Troyse22 said:


> He should be able to react to Hiraishin if Bee can, since hes reacted to speed comparable to it.


No to all of this...


Bee didnt react to FTG as Minato had no KI and verbally announced his arrival...Bee at best anticipated it...
Bees speed is in no fucking way, shape or form "comparable" to FTG...Thats fanfic...
I pointed out literally all of this in my initial question to you...makes me wonder if you read it honestly...



WorldsStrongest said:


> Do you not see the flaw in that logic? You are implying that Bees movement speed is equal to or greater than FTG and kisame reacted to it, thats the only logical way kisame could be considered able to react to FTG is if he reacted to something on a similar level of speed, so when you say _"bee reacted to ftg, kisame reacted to bee, kisame can react to ftg"_ you are saying
> 
> FTG>=<V2 Bee>>>V2 A in speed...*which isnt true as we know A is faster than Bee, and we know FTG is far faster than A is*







Troyse22 said:


> If Bee can do that, so can Kisame based on feats


No...Thats not how it works...

Which again i pointed out in my initial question...



WorldsStrongest said:


> You are implying that Bees movement speed is equal to or greater than FTG and kisame reacted to it, thats the only logical way kisame could be considered able to react to FTG is if he reacted to something on a similar level of speed, so when you say _"bee reacted to ftg, kisame reacted to bee, kisame can react to ftg"_ you are saying
> 
> FTG>=<V2 Bee>>>V2 A in speed...which isnt true as we know A is faster than Bee, and we know FTG is far faster than A is


Thats also not how reaction speed works...


WorldsStrongest said:


> Another problem with this logic...its just blatantly not how reaction speed works...Reaction speed=/=movement speed, if that was the case chidori wouldnt require sharingan to compensate for its speed, and A wouldnt need to augment his reflexes with raiton when using his shroud etc, and equaling someone in one stat doesnt equate to being on par with them in the other, *so even if kisame reacted to bees top speed, that doesnt give him access to bees reaction feats...thats just not how it works as the two function entirely different, you can react to something that moves faster than you can move, your movement speed =/= your reaction speed, thats how minato reacted to sekizo and V2 A despite them having a speed advantage.*
> 
> Furthermore, we have a direct comparison between 2 fighters at literally equal speed yet there is a disparity in their reaction timeas admitted by one of the fighters themselves. Further proving my point that having the same movement speed doesnt mean you have the same reaction speed.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 10, 2017)

La presagio said:


> He doesn't, can't keep up, itachi can deal with him weilding samehada and clone feints rape kisame, he has no sharingan or sensory skills to determine a fake from the real deal.



Kisame would never engage Itachi in CQC considering he knows of his genjutsu and how it's applied, but to hell with it.

Kisame was ragdolling Killer Bee casually in CQC, it wasn't until Bee went V2 that he could stand against Kisame, and as soon as Kisame merged with Samehada it was over.

Bee is undoubtedly Itachi's superior in terms of CQC. Itachi also doesn't have feats that enable him to contend with someone whos respected as a Master Swordsman, the strongest amongst all generations at that. 



La presagio said:


> Can't keep up with itachis quick reflexes and hand movements or seals. He gets wrecked in cqc.



Kisame's reactions are above Itachi's based on feats.

Physically reacting to V2 Bee>Mentally reacting to Kirin (each of their best reactionary feats in my opinion)

And it's made very clear in the manga that physical reactions are much more impressive than mental.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Except no...
> 
> Whats V2 Bees best speed feat?
> 
> I can guarantee its not as impressive as being too fast for MS to track visually...



It was though, even V1 Bee was too fast for MS Sasuke to react to, he couldn't see him, or react even mentally.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Honestly still no...
> 
> Bee was dodged by an injured sasuke while A fought a fresh sasuke



Dodged by Bee from a ridiculously huge distance.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Im not talking about hype...Bee hasno feats to put him above A...Portrayal and Hype as well as feats are all in A's corner here...he is the faster shinobi...



I think i've laid out why V2 Bee is faster than V2 Ay numerous times in this thread.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Gai is nowhere near Minatos speed as minatos speed is instant...
> 
> Honestly id hesitate to put Gai over the raikage in terms of speed...He could be faster but its unclear







WorldsStrongest said:


> Bee didnt react to FTG as *Minato had no KI and verbally announced his arrival*



@bold 

He announced his arrival after he clearly noticed Bee pointing the sword at his chest.

The rest of your ramblings are stuff i've already addressed.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It was though, even V1 Bee was too fast for MS Sasuke to react to, he couldn't see him, or react even mentally.


This is straight up incorrect...


V1 Bee was reacted to by BASE sasuke...The man has the time to mentally react and activate 3T before Bee can tag him, and then has the time to physically react and move out of the way...This is in no way shape or form a blitz
Base sasuke reacted to V1 Bee from a very short distance...like...10-20m at best...Keep in mind sasuke is APPROACHING Bee in this scan, meaning the distance is getting shorter as time passes
After seeing V1 Bee in action, he then confirms verbally for us he can react to level of speed seconds later
Sasuke proves this claim by reacting to V1 Bee yet again, and placing the man under a genjutsu before bee can hit him

How does any of this = a blitz to you troy?

At what point does sasuke end up being unable to track bee?

Please tell me you arent referencing this every time you think Bee blitzed sasuke...Cuz ive been over this about half a dozen times now...

Sasuke *dropped his guard* after placing bee in a genjutsu as THE PARTNER METHOD DIDNT EVEN EXIST UNTIL THEN

Sasuke assumed the enemy was defeated and turned his back to him willingly...no matter what you wanna call that...Sasuke being an idiot, CIS, PIS, An asspull on Bees part, shitty writing etc...You cant call it a blitz...

If bee had ever escaped sasukes sight on his own merit and THEN hit him, that would have been a blitz

As it stands...Its more of a feint really



Troyse22 said:


> Dodged by Bee from a ridiculously huge distance.


No...Base sasuke (top right panel and left center panel) mentally reacted to Bee from a distance of no more than 20m and activated 3T

3T sasuke reacted to Bee from a distance of maybe 5m (bottom panel) and physically dodged him

And cherry on top Sasuke is weakened due to injury that entire fight...



Troyse22 said:


> I think i've laid out why V2 Bee is faster than V2 Ay numerous times in this thread.


Its literally impossible for this to be true

A has better feats (nearly blitzed a healthy MS sasuke, dodged amaterasu from 5m or less, created afterimages with his speed)
A has better portrayal(consistently portrayed as the fastest man alive while Bee is up and kicking)
A has statements indicating he is faster(A states he is the fastest man alive since minatos death with bee standing 10 feet from him)

Bee has nothing to put him above A



Troyse22 said:


>


There is nothing to laugh at in what i just posted troy...sorry to break it to you...

Gai in no fucking universe is comparable to FTG in speed even in the goddamn 8th gate, FTG is instant...FTL is slower than instant...
And Gai has no feats (outside of the 8th gate obviously) that would put him clearly over V2 A in speed..thats why i straight up said it could go either way in terms of speed between them



Troyse22 said:


> @bold
> 
> He announced his arrival after he clearly noticed Bee pointing the sword at his chest.
> 
> The rest of your ramblings are stuff i've already addressed.


This is also bull

Heres a breakdown


A guns it at minato
Minato gives no fucks and avoids him casually and openly laughs at them all as soon as he lands behind bee (verbal announcement of arrival)
Bee then has a sword on minato
And again....minato had no KI or else he coulda blitzed like this, or like this and not bothered with polite conversation
And again...Its literally impossible for bees speed to be anywhere near FTG...Ive been over this already
And "ramblings"...Really?

Thats what you are gonna go with right now?

And heres the thing troy if you had addressed it and actually refuted it i wouldnt have brought it up again

Point blank...


FTL isnt comparable to FTGs speed
FTL>>>>>>>>>Anything the naruto verse has to offer in physical speed
Therefore 8th gate Gai isnt comparable to FTGs speed
Therefore V2 A isnt comparable to FTGS speed
Therefore V2 Bee isnt comparable to FTGS speed
V2 A is faster than V2 Bee for a fact...Literally from any angle you look at it, feats, hype, portrayal, statements...all support A being faster
Even IF kisame did react to V2 Bee...That doesnt mean kismae can react to shit THATS FASTER THAN BEE


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## Troyse22 (Apr 11, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> How does any of this = a blitz to you troy?
> 
> At what point does sasuke end up being unable to track bee?
> 
> ...



It was a speed feat by Bee.

Sasuke turned around and then got hit by Bee. This is a pure speed feat by Bee.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No...Base sasuke (top right panel and left center panel) mentally reacted to Bee from a distance of no more than 20m and activated 3T



Wrong, go back 2 pages and you see Sasuke is quite a huge distance from Bee. Sasuke knew from his fight with Naruto that Bee's speed was gonna be hugely amped up and was prepped for it.

He had time based on the distance to get ready.

That's not reaction.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And cherry on top Sasuke is weakened due to injury that entire fight...



Implying plot didn't save Sasuke's ass 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Its literally impossible for this to be true
> 
> A has better feats (nearly blitzed a healthy MS sasuke, dodged amaterasu from 5m or less, created afterimages with his speed)
> A has better portrayal(consistently portrayed as the fastest man alive while Bee is up and kicking)
> ...



I've laid out my reasoning, go back and look.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Gai in no fucking universe is comparable to FTG in speed even in the goddamn 8th gate, FTG is instant...FTL is slower than instant...



8th Gate Gai is about as close to Hiraishin as Shunshin can get fam.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato gives no fucks and avoids him casually and openly laughs at them all as soon as he lands behind bee (verbal announcement of arrival)



Bee already has the fucking sword on Minato when he said that. It was straight up reaction, so fast that not even Minato could thrust his Kunai quickly enough.



WorldsStrongest said:


> FTL isnt comparable to FTGs speed



It's about as close as possible.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Therefore 8th gate Gai isnt comparable to FTGs speed



Yes it is.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Therefore V2 Bee isnt comparable to FTGS speed



Yes it is based on feats



WorldsStrongest said:


> Even IF kisame did react to V2 Bee...That doesnt mean kismae can react to shit THATS FASTER THAN BEE



There's not much that's that much faster than V2 Bee.

It's clearly physically possible to react to FTG, we saw JJ Mads do it and we saw Killer Bee do it.

This Minato wank is getting way out of hand


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## Android (Apr 11, 2017)

> Based on feats.


How the fawk does this even work when your interpretation of said feats is wrong in the 1st place .


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## Android (Apr 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> we saw JJ Mads do it and we saw Killer Bee do it.


People don't react to FTG god dammit  
They react to what happens *after the teleportation* - meaning they react to Minato's physical speed not his Hiraishin -


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It was a speed feat by Bee.
> 
> Sasuke turned around and then got hit by Bee. This is a pure speed feat by Bee.


Its not a speed feat to blitz a guy who is back on to you while you are standing 2 feet away from him

It just isnt

Well at least

Its far from an impressive one



Troyse22 said:


> Wrong, go back 2 pages and you see Sasuke is quite a huge distance from Bee. Sasuke knew from his fight with Naruto that Bee's speed was gonna be hugely amped up and was prepped for it.


No actually

Not wrong

As we see sasuke mentally react to Bee at a very short distance and activate his 3T

Then we see him physically react with 3T from an even shorter distance and dodge Bee

What happened 2 pages ago is irrelevant...we saw the feats happen and we saw the distance they occurred at



Troyse22 said:


> He had time based on the distance to get ready.
> 
> That's not reaction.


He reacted at a short distance

He activated sharingan at a short distance

He moved out of the way at a shorter distance

There is no way you can slice this and not interpret what happened as reaction feats



Troyse22 said:


> Implying plot didn't save Sasuke's ass


Yeah plot...

Its not like Amaterasu hasnt been an established MS ability since MS was invented in the manga

And its totally not like sauske had MS before the fight started



Troyse22 said:


> I've laid out my reasoning, go back and look.


Your reasoning has been refuted...Like...2 times in my last post alone



Troyse22 said:


> 8th Gate Gai is about as close to Hiraishin as Shunshin can get fam.


8th gate gai does have the best shunshin in the verse

Thats not what im disputing

Stop putting words in my mouth

Im saying...

FTGs instant speed>>>FTL>>>>>>>>>>Insert an unholy amount of additional ">>>">>>Naruto verse physical speed



Troyse22 said:


> Bee already has the fucking sword on Minato when he said that. It was straight up reaction, so fast that not even Minato could thrust his Kunai quickly enough.


Lol at implying minato attempted to thrust his kunai at Bee

And it wasnt a reaction it was a prediction



Troyse22 said:


> It's about as close as possible.


No...No its not...Its the best the naruto verse can do

That doesnt make it "as close as possible"

The best the naruto verse can do is still unbelievably slower than FTL which is slower than FTG



Troyse22 said:


> Yes it is.


No it realllly isnt

Heres the legit scale so you can see how far from "comparable" this shit is

8th gate gai is clocked in at massively hypersonic+ ...which is anywhere mach 1000-8810.2

Light speed clocks in at mach 874030...yes thats 8 hundred thousand...so light is anywhere from 10-800 times faster than 8th gate gai

FTL is considered anywhere between double, and ten times the speed of light...and therefore 1600-8000 times faster than 8th gate gai

Then you have massively FTL which is a 100-1000 times the speed of light

And Massively FTL+ which is over x1000 the speed of light

AND THEN we get to instant speed...



Troyse22 said:


> Yes it is based on feats


Based on feats, hype, and portrayal the raikage gets punked by FTG every damn time



Troyse22 said:


> There's not much that's that much faster than V2 Bee.


There are a shit load of character in naruto faster than V2 bee...

2 forms of Gai, about 5 forms of naruto, a few forms of minato, a few forms of sasuke, a few forms of madara, obito, kaguya, kakashi, kinshiki, momoshiki, AAAA are all faster than Bee and are all slower than FTG



Troyse22 said:


> It's clearly physically possible to react to FTG, we saw JJ Mads do it and we saw Killer Bee do it.


We saw JJ mads do it but not Bee

And again...circling wayyyy back to my original freaking question in this thread which still has yet to be answered...EVEN IF Bee did react to FTG...How do you justify saying kisame can???

Kisame doesnt automatically gain the right to react to FTG because Bee did as thats blatantly not how reactions work...

Kisame cannot react to FTG based on the fact he reacted to V2 Bee who is FAR SLOWER than FTG

Thats just not how it works



Troyse22 said:


> This Minato wank is getting way out of hand


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## Stonaem (Apr 11, 2017)

It would be cool if the other members could do similar posts regarding characters they feel strongly about. I personally rate this post highly, for putting your opinion on the table to be critiqued, if nothing else.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 11, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not a speed feat to blitz a guy who is back on to you while you are standing 2 feet away from him
> 
> It just isnt
> 
> ...



I disagree.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No actually
> 
> Not wrong
> 
> ...



No, he never reacted from a short distance, a short distance is when we saw him hit Bee with Lariat.

Yet Sasuke was keeping up with V1 Ay in CQC.



WorldsStrongest said:


> 8th gate gai does have the best shunshin in the verse
> 
> Thats not what im disputing
> 
> ...



I disagree, if there was a 1 mile race between Minato and 8th Gate Gai and Minato had a hiraishin mark at the end, Gai wouldn't be far behind at all, i'm talking small amounts of seconds.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Lol at implying minato attempted to thrust his kunai at Bee
> 
> And it wasnt a reaction it was a prediction



Minato couldn't because Bee stopped him.

It was reaction, the manga agrees with me.



WorldsStrongest said:


> 8th gate gai is clocked in at massively hypersonic+ ...which is anywhere mach 1000-8810.2
> 
> Light speed clocks in at mach 874030...yes thats 8 hundred thousand...so light is anywhere from 10-800 times faster than 8th gate gai
> 
> ...



You only notice those kinds of speed differences at ridiculously long distances.

It's a big difference don't get me wrong, but the difference is not noticeable in any battle scenario.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Based on feats, hype, and portrayal the raikage gets punked by FTG every damn time



He got outsped, he didn't get defeated.



WorldsStrongest said:


> There are a shit load of character in naruto faster than V2 bee...
> 
> 2 forms of Gai



V2 Bee would shitblitz 7th Gate Gai based on feats.



WorldsStrongest said:


> about 5 forms of naruto



Only form I can think of that would be faster than V2 Bee based on feats would be RSM Naruto.



WorldsStrongest said:


> VEN IF Bee did react to FTG...How do you justify saying kisame can???



It's because it's clearly physically possible to react to FTG, due to the fact that its been done twice in canon (could be one or 2 more times i'm forgetting, but I digress). Kisame has some of the best non god tier reactionary feats in the manga. Based on this, Kisame should be able to react to Hiraishin, since Bee can.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I disagree.


The manga doesnt



Troyse22 said:


> No, he never reacted from a short distance, a short distance is when we saw him hit Bee with Lariat.


Top left panel...The distance between Sasuke and Bee is at Best 20m and Bee has yet to move

Sasuke is in BASE there as indicated by this top right panel...Then reacts mentally to Bees V1 attack and activates 3T

Sasuke then physically dodges Bees lariat from a distance of MAYBE 5 feet as shown in the bottom panel, and the following page

Sasuke reacted to V1 Bee from 20m in base...and from less than 5m for damn sure with 3T

Both are relatively short distances

But according to you a "short distance"=arms reach away while your opponent has his back turned and believes you to be incapped and has his guard down





Troyse22 said:


> Yet Sasuke was keeping up with V1 Ay in CQC.


And he kept up with V1 Bee in base...In midair...While injured...

The sasuke that fought A=/=The sasuke that fought Bee

Sasuke at the kage summit improved in all aspects due to his MS maturing...Karin compared his current base chakra to what it was previously in his cursed seal second state...She claimed it was stronger actually...Just indicating how much he has improved...

And he clearly improved physically as he could spam MS techs in stride and could physically keep up with the raikage, who is teh fastest shinobi in the verse at that time according to literally everything

I now assume you are arriving at the conclusion that "Bee is faster than A" due to comparing sasukes performances against each character...Which doesnt work for one veruy simple reason...The same version of Sauske didnt fight both Brothers...

Sasuke did better against A because he was stronger when he fought him than when he fought Bee...He was also blatantly stated to be injured when he fought Bee which further hampered his performance...Its really straightforward



Troyse22 said:


> I disagree,


Science doesnt



Troyse22 said:


> Minato couldn't because Bee stopped him.


Minato could have but didnt want to

He didnt have KI

If he did he would have insta blitzed and not followed it up with a freaking conversation




Troyse22 said:


> It was reaction, the manga agrees with me.


It wasnt a reaction if he already had his sword in position...Which you yourself stated earlier...

That makes it a prediction


Troyse22 said:


> Bee already has the fucking sword on Minato when he said that






Troyse22 said:


> You only notice those kinds of speed differences at ridiculously long distances.
> 
> It's a big difference don't get me wrong, but the difference is not noticeable in any battle scenario.


Tell this to 8th gate gai or The raikage



Troyse22 said:


> He got outsped, he didn't get defeated.


The fact they fought and he got outsped means he got defeated in a battle of speed



Troyse22 said:


> V2 Bee would shitblitz 7th Gate Gai based on feats.


Lolno

V2 Bees best speed feat doesnt come close to temporarily trading with a JJ ...Im sorry but it just doesnt



Troyse22 said:


> Only form I can think of that would be faster than V2 Bee based on feats would be RSM Naruto.


...

And KCM naruto...
And BM Naruto...
And BSM Naruto...

And everyone else i mentioned...



Troyse22 said:


> It's because it's clearly physically possible to react to FTG, due to the fact that its been done twice in canon


Once

We saw it done once in canon by JJ mads

Bees situation was at best a prediction

And they dont react to FTG they react to minatos striking speed after FTG

And just because something is possible doesnt mean kisame has the feats to suggest he can do it...cuz he doesnt...



Troyse22 said:


> Kisame has some of the best non god tier reactionary feats in the manga


No he does not

His best reaction feat is mentally reacting to V2 Bee...Which is half impressive but far from groundbreaking or anything

FKS sasuke has better reaction feats due to the fact he mentally reacted to V2 A, who is faster than Bee, and by extension anyone above FKS sasuke or on FKS sasukes level of speed has better reaction feats than kisame as well



Troyse22 said:


> Based on this, Kisame should be able to react to Hiraishin, since Bee can.


Again...

That isnt how reaction feats work dude...

Or speed scaling for that matter...

Kisame reacted to a slower speed than FTG...straight up far slower...There are speed tiers between Bee and FTG even within this one manga

So BY FEATS kisame can react to things on par with a V2 jin, and even then with difficulty, as V2 Bee still ripped the guy in half

Anything> a V2 jin is blitzing kisame

Look no further than Kisames encounter with initial KCM naruto for proof

Kisame was looking at Naruto , and had been looking at naruto for a few panels, and he still clearly got blitzed, the "?!!" and even his mental monologue all indicate that...As well as the fact he made no physical reaction at all


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The manga doesnt
> 
> 
> Top left panel...The distance between Sasuke and Bee is at Best 20m and Bee has yet to move
> ...


How you going to use a weak, dying Kisame without chakra as a feat here lol.


Bee is no way faster than KCM Naruto, or 7G Gai lol. V2 Bee is probably around MS Sasuke speed if not a bit above.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The manga doesnt
> 
> 
> Top left panel...The distance between Sasuke and Bee is at Best 20m and Bee has yet to move
> ...



Looks like we just disagree then, because your arguments are circling and it's boring.

V2 Bee>V2 Ay>V1 Bee>V1 Ay based on feats.



Makishima said:


> How you going to use a weak, dying Kisame without chakra as a feat here lol.
> 
> 
> Bee is no way faster than KCM Naruto, or 7G Gai lol. V2 Bee is probably around MS Sasuke speed if not a bit above.



Bee is faster than V2 Ay, KCM Naruto, 7G Gai etc based on feats.


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Looks like we just disagree then, because your arguments are circling and it's boring.
> 
> V2 Bee>V2 Ay>V1 Bee>V1 Ay based on feats.
> 
> ...



Because of the Minato feats? Minato had to cock back to gather enough momentum to break V2 Ay's shroud, only reason Bee was able to intervene. And if I recall there is no way to tell who put their sword up first, just cause Minato was confident that he didn't need to avoid Bee doesn't mean anything.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Because of the Minato feats?



A little bit, but mostly because of the battles between Sasuke vs Bee and Sasuke vs Ay



Makishima said:


> Minato had to cock back to gather enough momentum to break V2 Ay's shroud, only reason Bee was able to intervene.



What do you mean by cock back?


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## Zexion~ (Apr 12, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> A little bit, but mostly because of the battles between Sasuke vs Bee and Sasuke vs Ay
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by cock back?



If you notice he gripped the Kunai with two hands and pulled back to gather strength, hence why it fucked up Bee's tentacle so badly.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 12, 2017)

Makishima said:


> If you notice he gripped the Kunai with two hands and pulled back to gather strength, hence why it fucked up Bee's tentacle so badly.



He was already doing that when he Hiraishin'd behind Ay.

He didn't teleport behind Bee then do that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Looks like we just disagree then, because your arguments are circling and it's boring.
> 
> V2 Bee>V2 Ay>V1 Bee>V1 Ay based on feats.





Troyse22 said:


> Bee is faster than V2 Ay, KCM Naruto, 7G Gai etc based on feats.



...

And im the one going in circles...

Do me a solid @Troyse22 

Link me V2 Bees best speed feat in your opinion


----------

