# Aokiji vs Kaidou



## Luke (Nov 16, 2014)

Another speculation thread  

Intel: Full 
Restrictions: None 
Mindset: Bloodlusted 

Who do you think would win and why?


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## Ether (Nov 16, 2014)

Kaidou very high diff.

As for why, I'd say he edges out in terms of hype for me(World's Strongest Creature).


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## Ruse (Nov 16, 2014)

Kaido extreme diff

Give it to him due to his impressive hype.


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## Canute87 (Nov 16, 2014)

I'm sure Kaidou is stronger.


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## Ghost (Nov 16, 2014)

Kaidou extreme diff.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2014)

Can go either way. I am not stupid enough to wager for a guy about whom we know nothing yet & not to mention we haven't even seen his face.


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## Extravlad (Nov 16, 2014)

Can go either way.

I actually think Kuzan is stronger.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 16, 2014)

We know zero about his fighting style.


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## MYJC (Nov 16, 2014)

We know absolutely nothing about Kaido, not even how he looks. 

If I had to take a wild guess I'd say Kaido wins based on hype, but there's literally nothing aside from that to go on.


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## Rob (Nov 16, 2014)

Speculation? Kaido.


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## Amol (Nov 16, 2014)

Kiado High(mid) diff (not much different than extreme diff )
I believe Kuzan lost tiny bit of strength with his loss of leg like Shanks with his arm .
Loss of strength isn't too big but it would be enough to make difference in this level of fighting.
Kiado has better hype anyway.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 16, 2014)

Could go either way.


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## trance (Nov 16, 2014)

Can go either way.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 16, 2014)

Could go either way. 

Probably almost nothing in it.


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## monkey d ace (Nov 16, 2014)

kaido high/extreme diff, pure speculation!


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## trance (Nov 16, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Could go either way.
> 
> Probably almost nothing in it.





> Kaidou 945k ; Kuzan 940k



Come now. I know Borsalino-san is always super baked but I would expect him to remember his own tier list.


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 16, 2014)

Trance said:


> Come now. I know Borsalino-san is always super baked but I would expect him to remember his own tier list.



Trance you forget the match-up advantage for Kuzan.


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## Kai (Nov 16, 2014)

Kaido.

Aokiji probably isn't on the Yonko level after being weakened.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 16, 2014)

Trance said:


> Come now. I know Borsalino-san is always super baked but I would expect him to remember his own tier list.



My tier list is still a work in progress Starkiller.


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## savior2005 (Nov 16, 2014)

kaido wins low to mid diff.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 16, 2014)

Before having a fight to the death with Akainu, I'd probably give Aokiji the marginal edge.
However, I'm going to assume that the victory favors Kaidou now. Anywhere from mid-diff to extreme-diff, depending on how great the injuries were. 
Lower end of high difficulty, I'd say


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## tanman (Nov 16, 2014)

I suspect it's too close to call.


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## barreltheif (Nov 17, 2014)

I think Aokiji is better against defensive, slower fighters than offensive, fast, skilled fighters. He'll probably lose with very high difficulty.


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## Vengeance (Nov 17, 2014)

Imo Kaido, based on his hype.


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## Extravlad (Nov 17, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> My tier list is still a work in progress Starkiller.


Your WB hate is still strong.
How the fuck is Prime Garp nearly as strong as Prime WB ? And the gap between Roger/WB doesn't exist.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 17, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Your WB hate is still strong.
> How the fuck is Prime Garp nearly as strong as Prime WB ? And the gap between Roger/WB doesn't exist.



Because I don't take Buggy's statement literally and I place much more stock and weight into Roger's own words (the best person to judge this). 

Anyway wasn't this discussed recently on the OL? No need to derail this thread with this stuff now.


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## barreltheif (Nov 17, 2014)

Trance said:


> Come now. I know Borsalino-san is always super baked but I would expect him to remember his own tier list.




Clearly he does remember it. A fight between two characters that are only 5 points apart out of 1000 is practically the definition of a fight that could go either way.




Admiral Kizaru said:


> Because I don't take Buggy's statement literally and I place much more stock and weight into *Roger's own words* (the best person to judge this).




Which words are you referring to? What's your reason for thinking Roger and WB weren't equal?
I get that you'd discard Buggy's statement in favor of other evidence that contradicts it, but I didn't think there was any evidence contradicting it.

Also, about that list - I agree with a lot of things there, but there's one thing that really doesn't make sense. Why is it that Garp decreased by 45 points as he aged, and Sengoku decreased by 40, yet WB decreased by only 20? Surely WB must have decreased the most, given his illness? It seems to me that everything would make more sense if you put prime WB at 1000.


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## Extravlad (Nov 17, 2014)

> Because I don't take Buggy's statement literally and I place much more stock and weight into Roger's own words (the best person to judge this).


How are Roger's words more relevant than Buggy's statement?
Roger basically confirmed what we already knew, Garp fought Roger his whole life and won many times.

Garp is the one who's healthy and he still can't take the WSM title away from a man who need a full medical staff on his ship to stay alive.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 17, 2014)

Gut tells me Kaido, but tbh, it can go either way extreme diff.


King Itachi said:


> Before having a fight to the death with Akainu, I'd probably give Aokiji the marginal edge.
> However, I'm going to assume that the victory favors Kaidou now. Anywhere from *mid-diff* to extreme-diff, depending on how great the injuries were.
> Lower end of high difficulty, I'd say


Just letting you know this is utter bullshit. But whatever.


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## Pirao (Nov 17, 2014)

Kaido high or extreme. I have Kaido in my short list for top 5 currrent strongest characters, and I don't have Aokiji.


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## Gohara (Nov 17, 2014)

Kaidou wins with around mid difficulty.  He has significantly more hype than Aokiji.  Doflamingo doesn't fear Aokiji- and has even broken out of his ice without much of a problem and laughed at his face.  Doflamingo is afraid of the idea of Kaidou being angry at him.


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## Infinite Darkness (Nov 18, 2014)

Kaido, a member of Yonko is also known as the world's strongest living thing or creature or however people want to call him.  If you combine this together with his hype, he is above Aokoji, now and then. 

Kaido beats him mid-high diff as it is now due to his injuries, and high to extreme diff before his injuries. 
I don't think there is a character in the series who can beat Kaido with high diff at the moment, only extreme diff.


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## Magentabeard (Nov 18, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Kaidou wins with around mid difficulty.  He has significantly more hype than Aokiji.  Doflamingo doesn't fear Aokiji- and has even broken out of his ice without much of a problem and laughed at his face.  Doflamingo is afraid of the idea of Kaidou being angry at him.



I agree with this logic although I wouldn't say mid difficulty.  Lower high difficult is more reasonable just because admirals can't be significantly below Yonkou to balance the power.


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## Suit (Nov 18, 2014)

Kaido wins this decisively. Even if we're talking about Kuzan before his fight with Sakazuki.

If the World's Strongest Creature isn't stronger than lolKuzan... We've been falsely hyped. And this isn't Kishimoto writing, so I expect it to be correct.


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 18, 2014)

Like, come on people, we don't know anything about him and the way that he fights. People must wait until he shows sufficient feats to be pitted against someone in the battledome.

I honestly hope Strawhat4life does something about this. No offense to you, Luke, I enjoy your threads but threads like these always end up with no substance.


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## GIORNO (Nov 18, 2014)

Kuzan because:

1.) has feats
2.) solid portrayal/hype
3.) cooler looking
4.) better design
5.) cooler personality
6.) better DF
7.) is Black
8.) has cooler DF


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## Ruse (Nov 18, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Kaido wins this decisively. Even if we're talking about Kuzan before his fight with Sakazuki.
> 
> *If the World's Strongest Creature isn't stronger than lolKuzan... We've been falsely hyped. And this isn't Kishimoto writing, so I expect it to be correct.*



Not sure if serious or...?


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## Suit (Nov 18, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Not sure if serious or...?



Not that I was trying to downplay Kuzan or anything. Just saying that he doesn't have the impressive hype that Kaido has.


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## Shanks (Nov 18, 2014)

Kaido high diff.


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## Ruse (Nov 18, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> *Not that I was trying to downplay Kuzan or anything.* Just saying that he doesn't have the impressive hype that Kaido has.







Lucky Rue said:


> *If the World's Strongest Creature isn't stronger than lolKuzan.. We've been falsely hyped*. And this isn't Kishimoto writing, so I expect it to be correct.




Inb4 I was only joking


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## Suit (Nov 18, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Inb4 I was only joking



I wasn't. You just misinterpreted.


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## barreltheif (Nov 19, 2014)

You literally called him "lolKuzan" and implied that it would be really poor writing if Kaido couldn't beat him "decisively".


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## savior2005 (Nov 19, 2014)

kaido would win with AT most low diff. he is the strongest creature in the world. compare doffy's reaction when facing aokiji face to face, vs doffy reaction at hearing kaido's name.


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 19, 2014)

I honestly don't like to indulge myself in activities driven by contempt, but sometimes I feel forced to discredit another poster for saying something that's ridicu..lll---oo-us.

Kaido beating Aokiji with low difficulty?

Come on


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 19, 2014)

Tea said:


> Just letting you know this is utter bullshit. But whatever.



Like I said, the amount of difficulty will vary until we see the injuries he took from that fight. 
For all we know, he could have taken a magma fist like Whitebeard.

Regardless, a top tier will always be considered one of the top tiers - no matter what kind of injuries are received - but Aokiji (current) isn't comparable to his incarnation before the timeskip. Furthermore, Kuzan can't afford to be injured against someone that's close to him as it stands, and he doesn't hold any outside advantage that closes the gap.

We'll have to wait until Oda gives us more information, but I'm going with the lower end of high-diff.


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## Suit (Nov 19, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> You literally called him "lolKuzan" and implied that it would be really poor writing if Kaido couldn't beat him "decisively".



OPBD is serious business. I can see that nothing but rigid discussion of the facts at hand will do. No fun allowed. Got it.

The lot of you need to shut up and relax. I don't see Kuzan, injured or not, being as strong as the World's Strongest Creature.


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## Ruse (Nov 19, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> I wasn't. You just misinterpreted.



You implied it would be lolworthy for Kuzan winning and even used a Kishi reference, its not like I'm twisting what you said.


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## Suit (Nov 19, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> You implied it would be lolworthy for Kuzan winning and even used a Kishi reference, its not like I'm twisting what you said.



I think you dropped your sarcasm detector. I can't be bothered to help you with that, though.


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## Sabco (Nov 19, 2014)

Kaido has no fucking feats


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## Suit (Nov 19, 2014)

sabco said:


> Kaido has no fucking feats



Strongest Creature in the World doesn't need feats. He's the strongest creature in the world.


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## Luke (Nov 19, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> I think you dropped your sarcasm detector. I can't be bothered to help you with that, though.



You don't understand what sarcasm is if you beleive what you said was merely sarcastic.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 19, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Kaido wins this decisively. Even if we're talking about Kuzan before his fight with Sakazuki.
> 
> If the World's Strongest Creature isn't stronger than lolKuzan... *We've been falsely hyped.*


Yeah, it's not like Oda has done that before...right...?


Lucky Rue said:


> And this isn't Kishimoto writing, so I expect it to be correct.


If you want to believe Kaido is stronger due to his hype, that's fine, but saying that it's bad writing if it turns out that he isn't is meh.


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## Mr Dicklesworth (Nov 19, 2014)

He's completely featless and we know zero about him. Literally all we know is that his epithet is "World's strongest beast" and that he beat Moria in the past with unknown difficulty.

Stop making threads about characters who haven't even made an appearance yet. There's nothing to go off of


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## Furinji Saiga (Nov 19, 2014)

Pre Skip Aokiji could go either way

PTS Aokiji loses after a very high difficult fight.


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## Kanki (Nov 19, 2014)

savior2005 said:


> kaido would win with AT most low diff. he is the strongest creature in the world. compare doffy's reaction when facing aokiji face to face, vs doffy reaction at hearing kaido's name.



You piss off Kuzan and you have to deal with....Kuzan.
You piss off Kaido and you deal with with Kaido, his crew and his allies. Seeing as Dofla is a 'business man', which is worse?


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## Rob (Nov 19, 2014)

Doffy does have more reason to be afraid of Kaido, but to say that Kaido low-diffs Kuzan is ludicrous


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## Gohara (Nov 20, 2014)

Kanki said:


> You piss off Kuzan and you have to deal with....Kuzan.
> You piss off Kaido and you deal with with Kaido, his crew and his allies. Seeing as Dofla is a 'business man', which is worse?



Law was speaking on context of Kaidou vs. Doflamingo in a one on one fight.  He stated that Kaidou would wipe the floor with him, rather than that Kaidou and his crew would wipe the floor with Doflamingo and his crew.

Furthermore, Doflamingo also hasn't shown any fear of Fujitora, who has access to an army of Marines.  Not to mention he could just protect himself with Bird Cage.  He has no reason to be afraid of Kaidou unless he thinks that Kaidou could break through Bird Cage, which so far Fujitora has been unable to do.


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## trance (Nov 20, 2014)

Issho also has yet to demonstrate the uppermost echelon of his power while "Bird Cage" seems to be Doffy's best move.


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## Gohara (Nov 20, 2014)

We don't know that Fujitora didn't use his most powerful techniques when his Meteors were unable to break Bird Cage.  We also don't know that Doflamingo has used his most powerful techniques on panel yet.


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## trance (Nov 20, 2014)

Gohara said:


> We don't know that Fujitora didn't use his most powerful techniques when his Meteors were unable to break Bird Cage.



As I said, he has yet to display his uppermost limit. Besides, his meteors aren't his most powerful moves. They can't be. I wouldn't think something which has been countered so easily could be the highest end of the arsenal of an Admiral. 



> We also don't know that Doflamingo has used his most powerful techniques on panel yet.



It seems to be from how it's been portrayed. It's his trump card. Perhaps not in terms of destructive capacity, mind you but in overall effectiveness. "Parasite" with the range of an _entire island_ is nothing to scoff at.


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## Gohara (Nov 20, 2014)

There's nothing really suggesting that Fujitora didn't use his most powerful techniques against Sabo.  I can see an Admiral's most powerful technique being countered by some of Doflamingo's techniques.  It depends on how powerful you estimate that the Admirals are, but our estimations of how powerful the Admirals are don't really serve as evidence here, since they're the point of dispute.  

Doflamingo has used Bird Cage multiple times on panel to ensure that no one escapes the area he used Bird Cage around.  That doesn't necessarily mean that it's his most powerful technique.  I question that Doflamingo has already used his most powerful technique when we have yet to see him go all out in a fight.


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## trance (Nov 20, 2014)

Gohara said:


> There's nothing really suggesting that Fujitora didn't use his most powerful techniques against Sabo.  I can see an Admiral's most powerful technique being countered by some of Doflamingo's techniques.  It depends on how powerful you estimate that the Admirals are, but our estimations of how powerful the Admirals are don't really serve as evidence here, since they're the point of dispute.



Issho and Sabo weren't using their full strength in their fight, so that's moot. In fact, you could even argue for Issho holding back _even more_ (but for the sake of this argument, I won't). I mean, considering what the Logia trio are capable of, it's highly likely they could break through "Bird Cage". 

Kizaru's lasers can simply flow the openings, in fact. 



> Doflamingo has used Bird Cage multiple times on panel to ensure that no one escapes the area he used Bird Cage around.  That doesn't necessarily mean that it's his most powerful technique.



And yet, I didn't say it's his _most powerful_ but simply his _most effective_. One can have a trump card that possesses less offensive power than his most destructive. It depends on the extent of how each move works in regards to its user. 



> I question that Doflamingo has already used his most powerful technique when we have yet to see him go all out in a fight.



You're using a double standard. We have yet to see Issho fight at his maximum yet you think he's already used his most powerful moves against Sabo in the form of "Ferocious Tiger" and what not.


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## savior2005 (Nov 20, 2014)

im not even sure if aokiji can beat kaido's first mate and yet you put him against kaido himself. aokiji had to win via distraction against jozu, who is the 3rd strongest in a yonko crew.























*Spoiler*: __


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 20, 2014)

While I do think Fujitora has yet to display his full array of attacks from his Devil fruit, he's within a touching distance from utilizing his attacks as the story reaches its conclusion. As for Doflamingo? I have to disagree with the contention that he's used all of his attacks, although I don't think he's much to offer to us at this point. Perhaps Birdcage is indeed his most powerful technique but we have to remember that it serves as some sort of defensive attack through which it becomes a medium for Doflamingo to disable any escape routes from Dressrosa completely. I still think he has one final finisher that he's yet to show us.

I've to agree that Fujitora didn't go all out against Sabo but I think at some point in the manga, he'll go berserk and utilize his power at their utmost degree.

Of course, this is all just my opinion q:


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## Sabco (Nov 20, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Strongest Creature in the World doesn't need feats. He's the strongest creature in the world.



So you agree Prime Hiruzen > Hashirama ?


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 20, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Man, I think this topic has far exceeded its point of ending. Reminds me of this certain  member called liquid ranting on about absolute nothingness for what he believes it to be  intelligent ranting.





OT: i'd go with kaidou with high difficulty. Can't say much besides 'he wins with specified difficulty.


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## Gohara (Nov 20, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

We don't know how much of their own power that they were using, but the Meteors we saw Fujitora use were unable to fully get through Bird Cage.  I don't see why Fujitora would give up without using his full power if he thought that it could fully get through Bird Cage.  Especially since he's trying to help save the citizens of Dressrosa.  It seems like Fujitora doesn't think that he can fully get through Bird Cage, even if he uses his full power.  This is part of why it's not really a double standard to suggest that Fujitora may have gone all out, while suggesting that Doflamingo may have not gone all out.  Doflamingo going all out wouldn't make much sense from a story perspective, since he's still fighting the main protagonist.  Fujitora wasn't fighting the main protagonist at the time, and could have used his full power off panel.

As for saying that you can see Bird Cage not being Doflamingo's most powerful technique, fair enough.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Nov 20, 2014)

Kaidou by hype would murder Kuzan


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## trance (Nov 20, 2014)

Gohara said:


> We don't know how much of their own power that they were using, but the Meteors we saw Fujitora use were unable to fully get through Bird Cage.  I don't see why Fujitora would give up without using his full power if he thought that it could fully get through Bird Cage.  Especially since he's trying to help save the citizens of Dressrosa.  It seems like Fujitora doesn't think that he can fully get through Bird Cage, even if he uses his full power.  This is part of why it's not really a double standard to suggest that Fujitora may have gone all out, while suggesting that Doflamingo may have not gone all out.



He had every reason not to hold back but for plot's sake, a character is forced to do so against their own will. For example; it's widely agreed that Mihawk didn't demonstrate his full strength at MarineFord despite having every reason not to hold back simply for the sake of plot. Considering Issho/Mihawk are being reserved for a later time, it makes sense for them to have not unleashed their full strength yet. 



> Doflamingo going all out wouldn't make much sense from a story perspective, since he's still fighting the main protagonist.  Fujitora wasn't fighting the main protagonist at the time, and could have used his full power off panel.



And obviously Issho's role is going to remain secondary until a later time when his character is not only more fleshed out but he has a much more significant role in regards to the story arc.


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## Gohara (Nov 21, 2014)

I respectfully disagree.  I don't consider plot a reason for that, especially when there's no clear evidence of that being the case.  Plus, whether it's for plot or other reasons, Oda has written Fujitora to be incapable of fully breaking through Doflamingo's Bird Cage.

Mihawk not having a reason to hold back is a debatable point, but even if he had no reason to hold back he had no reason to go all out.  Fujitora has a reason to go all out to try to fully break through Doflamingo's Bird Cage.

Fujitora likely isn't going to be a main antagonist of an Arc that fights the main protagonist.  Plus, Fujitora has fought Sabo off panel.  So, we wouldn't have to see him go all out for us to know that Fujitora going all out can't fully break through Bird Cage, since we know that he tried to do that off panel and has been unable to so far.


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## Dellinger (Nov 21, 2014)

Fujitora never tried to destroy Birdcage.


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## Gohara (Nov 21, 2014)

Fujitora used Meteors against Sabo, and they were unable to fully break through Bird Cage.

Also, Fujitora wants to save the civilians from Bird Cage.  So, the fact that he hasn't leads me to believe that he can't fully break through Bird Cage.


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## Dellinger (Nov 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Fujitora used Meteors against Sabo, and they were unable to fully break through Bird Cage.
> 
> Also, Fujitora wants to save the civilians from Bird Cage.  So, the fact that he hasn't leads me to believe that he can't fully break through Bird Cage.



You clearly don't know what Fujitora tries to achieve.


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## opofft (Nov 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Fujitora used Meteors against Sabo, and they were unable to fully break through Bird Cage.
> 
> Also, Fujitora wants to save the civilians from Bird Cage.  So, the fact that he hasn't leads me to believe that he can't fully break through Bird Cage.



No Fuji has been using all this (birdcage + whatever flamingo had and has done) as a scapegoat for disposing the shihibukais. He made that clear.


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## convict (Nov 21, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> You clearly don't know what Fujitora tries to achieve.



To be perfectly honest no one, not even Fujitora himself, seems to know what he is trying to achieve.


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## Dellinger (Nov 21, 2014)

convict said:


> To be perfectly honest no one, not even Fujitora himself, seems to know what he is trying to achieve.



He is trying to show what is wrong with the Shichibukai system and he is accomplishing that.


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## Gohara (Nov 22, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> You clearly don't know what Fujitora tries to achieve.



What do you mean?  That Fujitora doesn't want to save the civilians?



opofft said:


> No Fuji has been using all this (birdcage + whatever flamingo had and has done) as a scapegoat for disposing the shihibukais. He made that clear.



Where did Fujitora say that he wants Bird Cage to remain active for that sake?


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## trance (Nov 22, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  I don't consider plot a reason for that, especially when there's no clear evidence of that being the case.



If it's the sake of the story, it goes beyond logic in some instances. Mihawk, who should be a high end adversary, had a pretty embarrassing attempt at trying to kill Luffy, despite his outward admission that he would hold nothing back. Mind you, this is a _pre-timeskip_ incarnation of Luffy. Anyone with a shred of common sense knows Mihawk could merk said incarnation of Luffy under any circumstance but was simply restricted by plot for the sake of being reserved until later, presumably around the time he's either next given a major appearance, like when Zoro challenges him for the title.



> Plus, whether it's for plot or other reasons, Oda has written Fujitora to be incapable of fully breaking through Doflamingo's Bird Cage.



I agree but only in this instance. Zoro has proven capable of blocking a sword strike from Kuzan, who was fully aiming to kill Robin, without budging an inch but I don't think for a second that the same version of Zoro can block a sword strike from Kuzan un-restricted by PIS/CIS, simply because of the sheer difference in strength but as I said, sometimes logic is disregarded for the sake of plot. 



> Mihawk not having a reason to hold back is a debatable point



It was a war against one of the Four Emperors. Logically speaking, he had no reason to hold back but did so anyway for the sake of the story.



> Fujitora has a reason to go all out to try to fully break through Doflamingo's Bird Cage.



That he did.



> Fujitora likely isn't going to be a main antagonist of an Arc that fights the main protagonist.



You're putting words into my mouth. I never said nor even implied he was going to be an arc main antagonist but that he was simply going to have a much more prominent role later on in the story.


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## Amol (Nov 22, 2014)

I wonder if Kiado had some hax powers thanks to his Mythical Zoan .
Though I assume him being only a physical fighter .


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## Dellinger (Nov 22, 2014)

Gohara said:


> What do you mean?  That Fujitora doesn't want to save the civilians?
> 
> 
> 
> Where did Fujitora say that he wants Bird Cage to remain active for that sake?



Destroying birdcage has nothing to do with saving the civilians.The marines are already stopping them while Fujitora is waiting for Luffy to beat the crap out of Doflamingo.


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## Tenma (Nov 22, 2014)

Kaido very high diff. By his hype, the World's Strongest Creature should be stronger than someone who has already been decisively defeated, but Aokiji's extreme levels of endurance and resolve will make Kaido work for his victory.


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## Gohara (Nov 23, 2014)

Trance said:


> If it's the sake of the story, it goes beyond logic in some instances. Mihawk, who should be a high end adversary, had a pretty embarrassing attempt at trying to kill Luffy, despite his outward admission that he would hold nothing back. Mind you, this is a _pre-timeskip_ incarnation of Luffy. Anyone with a shred of common sense knows Mihawk could merk said incarnation of Luffy under any circumstance but was simply restricted by plot for the sake of being reserved until later, presumably around the time he's either next given a major appearance, like when Zoro challenges him for the title.



I respectfully disagree that it was an embarrassing showing for Mihawk.  He wasn't having any difficulty against Luffy.  Luffy was dodging his techniques by a hair and barely survived that brief confrontation.



Trance said:


> Zoro has proven capable of blocking a sword strike from Kuzan, who was fully aiming to kill Robin, without budging an inch but I don't think for a second that the same version of Zoro can block a sword strike from Kuzan un-restricted by PIS/CIS, simply because of the sheer difference in strength but as I said, sometimes logic is disregarded for the sake of plot.



I think this instance and maybe the one you mentioned about Mihawk just go to show that simply having far more powerful than a character doesn't mean they'll win as easily and quickly as you seem to suggest.



Trance said:


> It was a war against one of the Four Emperors. Logically speaking, he had no reason to hold back but did so anyway for the sake of the story.



Mihawk was only there out of obligation and perhaps interest.  He has nothing against the Whitebeard Pirates as far as we know, and I doubt that he cared much about the war in general.



Trance said:


> You're putting words into my mouth. I never said nor even implied he was going to be an arc main antagonist but that he was simply going to have a much more prominent role later on in the story.



Maybe, but Doflamingo is a main antagonist of an Arc.



White Hawk said:


> Destroying birdcage has nothing to do with saving the civilians.The marines are already stopping them while Fujitora is waiting for Luffy to beat the crap out of Doflamingo.



Bird Cage puts the civilians in danger.  I don't see how destroying Bird Cage wouldn't help to save the civilians.

The Marines wouldn't have to risk their lives to stop them if Fujitora can just destroy the Bird Cage.  Also, it's not like the Bird Cage isn't still dangerous to the civilians.


----------



## trance (Nov 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree that it was an embarrassing showing for Mihawk.  He wasn't having any difficulty against Luffy.  Luffy was dodging his techniques by a hair and barely survived that brief confrontation.



Take of it what you will but despite a lengthy engagement and a personal admission to not hold back, Mihawk could only tag Luffy once. This is not to say that the likes of Sengoku or the Admirals are exempt from this as MarineFord was full of plot, which only reinforces my argument. 



> I think this instance and maybe the one you mentioned about Mihawk just go to show that simply having far more powerful than a character doesn't mean they'll win as easily and quickly as you seem to suggest.



Actually, it does. 

Lucci vs. Franky
Whitebeard vs. Ronse
Whitebeard vs. Ace
Teach vs. Saquis
Sabo vs. Bastille

I can go on but I hope you get my drift.



> Mihawk was only there out of obligation and perhaps interest.  He has nothing against the Whitebeard Pirates as far as we know, and I doubt that he cared much about the war in general.



Obligation and interest are probably right on the money but against arguably the mightiest entity in the world, whom Mihawk outright declared an interest in measuring his standing in comparison against, I don't see a reason why he would hold back at all, even in his later confrontations with Luffy and Vista. 



> Maybe, but Doflamingo is a main antagonist of an Arc.



Honestly, I don't think you give my words much thought or consideration at all. 

Him having a more prominent appearance =/= being an arc main antagonist.

Kaku and Daz Bones have demonstrated aptly so. They're two guys who have demonstrated their full potential but aren't even close to being arc main antagonists.


----------



## Gohara (Nov 24, 2014)

Trance said:


> Take of it what you will but despite a lengthy engagement and a personal admission to not hold back, Mihawk could only tag Luffy once.



Maybe, but I don't see what's wrong with that.



Trance said:


> Actually, it does.
> 
> Lucci vs. Franky
> Whitebeard vs. Ronse
> ...



I don't entirely agree with most of these examples, but my point here is that it doesn't mean that the far more powerful character will win.  Yes, a far more powerful character has defeated a far weaker character quickly before, but it's not a guarantee.



Trance said:


> Obligation and interest are probably right on the money but against arguably the mightiest entity in the world, whom Mihawk outright declared an interest in measuring his standing in comparison against, I don't see a reason why he would hold back at all, even in his later confrontations with Luffy and Vista.



Mihawk's interest in measuring how powerful he is compared to old Whitebeard seemed to be passing.  It didn't seem to be a priority to him.



Trance said:


> Him having a more prominent appearance =/= being an arc main antagonist.



Yes, but my reasoning involves Doflamingo being a main antagonist of an Arc.  So, I think that may explain why Doflamingo hasn't gone all out yet.



Trance said:


> Kaku and Daz Bones have demonstrated aptly so. They're two guys who have demonstrated their full potential but aren't even close to being arc main antagonists.



Yes, but the Arcs in which they were two of some of the main antagonists have finished.  If Doflamingo is defeated in the current Arc, it's likely that we'll have seen his full power by then.


----------



## trance (Nov 24, 2014)

Addressing both of these points. 



Gohara said:


> Maybe, but I don't see what's wrong with that.





> I don't entirely agree with most of these examples, but my point here is that it doesn't mean that the far more powerful character will win.  Yes, a far more powerful character has defeated a far weaker character quickly before, but it's not a guarantee.



It's not a guarantee _if said characters are restricted by plot in some shape, way or form_.

My point in referencing these fights is that each ended with _little or no opposition given_. They were entirely one-sided. Not to mention, we've seen what happens when a being or even multitude of beings engage the likes of one being that is _infinitely_ faster.

Hakuba vs. Block D
Kizaru vs. Drake
Luffy vs. Blueno
Zoro vs. Hyouzo

I would certainly think that an unhindered Mihawk is fully capable of out speeding the likes of pre-TS Luffy with approximately the same amount of ease as the aforementioned examples. 



> Mihawk's interest in measuring how powerful he is compared to old Whitebeard seemed to be passing.  It didn't seem to be a priority to him.



It seemed to give an indication that he would fight, completely un-restricted.

Anyway, we're delving into semantics here. 

My whole point is that despite several indicators that Mihawk should not have held back, it seems that he was forced to anyway, for the sake of the story.



> Yes, but my reasoning involves Doflamingo being a main antagonist of an Arc.  So, I think that may explain why Doflamingo hasn't gone all out yet.





> If Doflamingo is defeated in the current Arc, it's likely that we'll have seen his full power by then.



It's like arguing with a wall. 

Case in point, Issho has foreshadowed a possible (and probable) later appearance presumably around the time either the Reverie begins or the Warlord system is dismantled.


----------



## SsjAzn (Nov 25, 2014)

I'd say the two are equal, but Kaido has the edge since he a freaking Yonko and can the sound of his name gives Doffy the creeps.


----------



## Gohara (Nov 26, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

-Crocodile vs. Doflamingo, Crocodile vs. Mihawk, Jinbe and Sanji vs. Wadatsumi, Wiper vs. Enel, and Hancock vs. Smoker are examples of fights in which the far weaker character didn't lose that quickly.  We've also seen many foot soldiers survive blows from powerful characters.  We've also seen some non-main characters survive blows from characters far more powerful than them.  Bellamy survived blows from Doflamingo, the Rolling Pirates survived a blow from Kuma, Paulie survived blows from Lucci, John Giant survived a blow from Whitebeard, and Mr. 1 survived a blow from Mihawk.  Plus, that reasoning goes both ways.  If we're going to say that main characters have lasted longer in fights against characters significantly more powerful than them- then we can also say that Whitebeard was intentionally written to have all those disadvantages so he wouldn't defeat Akainu that quickly.  We can also say that some characters are only defeated that quickly for plot related reasons.

-What speed feats does Mihawk really have, though?  Plus, most of the characters you named here aren't as fast as pre time skip Luffy.

-I respectfully disagree.  I don't see why that would indicate that he's going to go all out.  He doesn't need to go all out to measure how powerful he is compared to old Whitebeard.  In fact, he used a one handed swing from long range.  If he's going to go all out, I would think that he would use two hands at close range.  Even if it does indicate that he's going to go all out for that specific swing, that doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to go all out fighting characters other than old Whitebeard.

-Indeed, but I'm not sure what that has to do with my point here.  My reasoning is that because Doflamingo's a main antagonist of an Arc, it makes sense that his full power is going to be saved for the main fight of that Arc.  Fujitora could have used his full power off panel anyways, but either way we know that it likely wasn't enough to fully break through Bird Cage.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Nov 26, 2014)

Kaidou, difficulty varies from high-extreme depending on the power gap between an admiral and a yonkou.


----------



## Typhon (Nov 26, 2014)

Could go either way as of right now. Kuzan is a terrible matchup for physical based fighters anyway.


----------



## Freechoice (Nov 26, 2014)

Aokiji low to stomp diff


----------



## Suit (Nov 26, 2014)

Freechoice gonna Freechoice.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 28, 2014)

SsjAzn said:


> I'd say the two are equal, but Kaido has the edge since he a freaking Yonko and can the sound of his name gives Doffy the creeps.



Yup, when it's too close to make an educated prediction let's give the benefit of doubt to the guy we've literally seen nothing of in the manga over the guy who've we've seen plenty of and know the godlike capabilities of. 

That makes perfect sense.


----------



## Luke (Nov 28, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Yup, when it's too close to make an educated prediction let's give the benefit of doubt to the guy we've literally seen nothing of in the manga over the guy who've we've seen plenty of and know the godlike capabilities of.
> 
> That makes perfect sense.



I hope to god that Corus sees this and starts a huge debate. :ignoramus


----------



## Jeep Brah (Nov 28, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Yup, when it's too close to make an educated prediction let's give the benefit of doubt to the guy we've literally seen nothing of in the manga over the guy who've we've seen plenty of and know the godlike capabilities of.
> 
> That makes perfect sense.



Yeah, because Yonkou totally don't have more presence than Admirals right?


It's not like one stopped a whole war.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Nov 28, 2014)

Jeep Brah said:


> Yeah, because Yonkou totally don't have more presence than Admirals right?
> 
> 
> It's not like one stopped a whole war.



Sigh ......... not sure why I'm responding to a dupe but here goes:

- It would have been more impressive had he turned up at the start and not when it was all over.

- Shanks having an incredibly strong presence =/= Admirals not achieving a similar level of presence. Those things aren't mutually exclusive. It's not like one certain Admiral was the MVP alongside WB during the war and struck terror into the hearts of the WB pirates with his actions either.  

- It's all subjective as fuck anywhere. You had an entire archipelago erupt into chaos just with the very thought that an Admiral may show up and likewise you also have had similar incidents for the Yonkou. It's difficult and bordering on the disingenuous to try and rate one set of incidents over the another when there's no real quantitative way to do it.


----------



## Ruse (Nov 28, 2014)

Jeep Brah said:


> Yeah, because Yonkou totally don't have more presence than Admirals right?
> 
> 
> It's not like one stopped a whole war.



That you Gohara?


----------



## Luke (Nov 28, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> That you Gohara?



Don't you believe it.


----------



## Orca (Nov 28, 2014)

Yonkos do have bigger presence than the admirals. Atleast the two we've seen so far I.e Whitebeard and Shanks.


----------



## Magentabeard (Nov 28, 2014)

Admirals having the same presence as yonkou? LOL... we had 3 admirals together at marineford and their presence doesn't even match up to Shanks alone. Put  Shanks, Whitebeard, and Kaidou together and their portrayal will be completely different. This Yonkou=Admirals delusion is stupid and I don't see it anywhere else but here.

Kaidou wins *high* difficulty. The world's strongest creature who is on par with Shanks and Whitebeard will never be pushed to extreme difficulty by Aokiji. Losing is laughable.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 28, 2014)

I think you guys are confusing "having a big presence" with "having a crew".
Of course Shanks showing up with Beckman, Lucky Rou, Yasopp and hundreds of others is more impressive than Akainu on his own.
Obviously, WB is more impressive than the admirals. He's the WSM. But I really don't get the Shanks wank.


----------



## Extravlad (Nov 28, 2014)

> But I really don't get the Shanks wank.


Well he's the main character's idol.
It's just like the Minato's wank, the dragon's wank or the Gin's wank.
Main characters father/role model are always extremely popular and overwanked.

But they are NEVER the strongest in the verse.


----------



## Orca (Nov 28, 2014)

Don't see why shanks having a crew matters when marines are a much bigger organization.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 28, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Don't see why shanks having a crew matters when marines are a much bigger organization.




I'm saying that Shanks appearing with Beckman, Lucky Roux, Yasopp, and hundreds of other people is a bigger deal than, say, Kizaru appearing alone. Obviously Shanks' appearances are going to make more of an impression.
It's a pretty simple point.


----------



## Orca (Nov 28, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> I'm saying that Shanks appearing with Beckman, Lucky Roux, Yasopp, and hundreds of other people is a bigger deal than, say, Kizaru appearing alone. Obviously Shanks' appearances are going to make more of an impression.
> It's a pretty simple point.



Shanks made an appearance with his crew and made a stand against a body of people that included Kizaru. We already have a reference point.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 28, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Shanks made an appearance with his crew and made a stand against a body of people that included Kizaru. We already have a reference point.




I'm not seeing your point. What I'm saying is that if Shanks had shown up without his crew, he wouldn't have seemed as threatening or imposing.


----------



## Orca (Nov 28, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> I'm not seeing your point. What I'm saying is that if Shanks had shown up without his crew, he wouldn't have seemed as threatening or imposing.



You'd have a point if we were comparing shanks crews appearance and kizaru's appearance against a third party. But shanks appeared against an opponent that included Kizaru along with all the other marines + Shichibukai + BB pirates. There's a direct comparison here.


----------



## barreltheif (Nov 28, 2014)

Luffee said:


> You'd have a point if we were comparing shanks crews appearance and kizaru's appearance against a third party. But shanks appeared against an opponent that included Kizaru along with all the other marines + Shichibukai + BB pirates. There's a direct comparison here.




I literally have no idea what you're trying to say. Shanks was leading a bunch of really strong people, and this made his "presence" greater than it would have been if he had come alone. Kizaru was not leading a bunch of super strong people, so his "presence" was not increased.


----------



## Coruscation (Nov 28, 2014)

You're right. It was not Kizaru leading a bunch of super strong people.

It was Sengoku leading Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Garp, 15~ Vice Admirals, 100000 other Marines of varying rank and power, and 5 of the Shichibukai.

And Shanks, leading his core crew of about 10 people, showed up and had a dominant presence and told all the people above to quit it right now or they'd have to take him and his 10 dudes on. And they quit.

And you're saying there's nothing putting Shanks above Kizaru/Aokiji in this?


----------



## Suit (Nov 28, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> I literally have no idea what you're trying to say. Shanks was leading a bunch of really strong people, and this made his "presence" greater than it would have been if he had come alone. Kizaru was not leading a bunch of super strong people, so his "presence" was not increased.



How fucking bad can your attempt get to avoid his point? Shanks had a crew. He was up against the entirety of the marines + Shichibukai. You're making it seem like it was Shanks + crew vs a single Admiral. Why the fuck you do this, I have no clue.


----------



## Infinite Darkness (Nov 29, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You're right. It was not Kizaru leading a bunch of super strong people.
> 
> It was Sengoku leading Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Garp, 15~ Vice Admirals, 100000 other Marines of varying rank and power, and 5 of the Shichibukai.
> 
> ...



The only reason they quit is because they have already fought WB.


----------



## Gohara (Nov 30, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> You had an entire archipelago erupt into chaos just with the very thought that an Admiral may show up and likewise you also have had similar incidents for the Yonkou. It's difficult and bordering on the disingenuous to try and rate one set of incidents over the another when there's no real quantitative way to do it.



Some of the pre time skip Supernovas weren't afraid of Kizaru.  Hawkins literally stood face to face with Kizaru and wasn't afraid of him at all.  Apoo wanted to see Kizaru fight up close, and had no issue attacking him.  The pre time skip Supernovas seemed to prefer to avoid fighting Kizaru, but they didn't seem to be outright afraid of him.  We've seen far more powerful characters fear the Yonkou more.

The only characters of that entire Archipelago who were outright afraid of Kizaru were characters who are foot soldier level or below.



Magentabeard said:


> we had 3 admirals together at marineford and their presence doesn't even match up to Shanks alone. Put  Shanks, Whitebeard, and Kaidou together and their portrayal will be completely different. This Yonkou=Admirals delusion is stupid and I don't see it anywhere else but here.



This, although I don't think that anyone is stupid for disagreeing with us.  While I wouldn't go so far as to say that I haven't seen anyone outside of this forum think that the Admirals are around or close to Yonkou level, I have seen more people who don't think that than people who do by far.



Luffee said:


> Don't see why shanks having a crew matters when marines are a much bigger organization.





Coruscation said:


> You're right. It was not Kizaru leading a bunch of super strong people.
> 
> It was Sengoku leading Akainu, Kizaru, Aokiji, Garp, 15~ Vice Admirals, 100000 other Marines of varying rank and power, and 5 of the Shichibukai.
> 
> ...



This.



Infinite Darkness said:


> The only reason they quit is because they have already fought WB.



If the Admirals are around or close to Yonkou level in terms of power- then they essentially still had 4 characters who are around that level and not significantly injured.  4 Yonkou should be able to defeat 1 Yonkou without much of a problem, even if those 4 Yonkou are somewhat battle worn.  I find it hard to believe that the World Government passed up the chance to take out half of the Yonkou.


----------



## rext1 (Dec 2, 2014)

People are reading too much into the Red-Hair pirates confronting the Marine HQ and the power dynamics in play. Oda isnt Tolkien/Niven/GRRM and his not writing hard-SF or high fantasy. It was a typical shonen cool guy, HYPE-moment.

At that point Oda + his editor's only concerns were to close off the MF arc. All the boxes had been checked. WB was dead. Ace was dead. Luffy was traumatized. Sub-Sandwich Sabo was hinted at. The timeskip was setup. Mihawk got his iceberg cutter feat.

The RH pirates were simply the Deus Ex Machina needed to quickly and abruptly exit that arc. Obviously a single YONKO crew >= Marine HQ - makes no sense. A single YONKO crew having multiple crew members who are the equivalents of the WG's greatest fighters - makes no sense.

The entire 4 YONKO = Marine HQ + Schichi paradigm would make no sense if the above were true. So I do not take the Shanks intervention at MF as a sensible metric of his & other YONKO's power relative to Admirals/Marine HQ.


----------



## HisMajestyMihawk (Dec 2, 2014)

What I dont understand is the Ben Beckman wank. The guy's only feat is beating up a few East Blue bandits.


----------



## Shanks (Dec 2, 2014)

lol said:


> Aokiji low to stomp diff



Going with this.


----------



## Akitō (Dec 2, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If the Admirals are around or close to Yonkou level in terms of power- then they essentially still had 4 characters who are around that level and not significantly injured.  4 Yonkou should be able to defeat 1 Yonkou without much of a problem, even if those 4 Yonkou are somewhat battle worn.  I find it hard to believe that the World Government passed up the chance to take out half of the Yonkou.



They also had to fight the remaining Whitebeard Pirates. Shanks also has a few guys who are close to the Yonkou-level and who could likely give any of the top-tier Marines a good battle. Not saying that the WG wouldn't win, but it'd be a close fight, which is why they passed up that opportunity.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 2, 2014)

rext1 said:


> Obviously a single YONKO crew >= Marine HQ - makes no sense.



It was two Yonkou crews.  



rext1 said:


> A single YONKO crew having multiple crew members who are the equivalents of the WG's greatest fighters - makes no sense.



If you're referring to the Admirals here, I respectfully disagree if you're saying that they're the most powerful individuals in the World Government.  They may be the most powerful overall fighting force in the marines since there are three of them- but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the most powerful individuals.

I see no reason to believe that a Yonkou crew can't have multiple members who are around Admiral level in terms of power.  If anything I think that it makes more sense for that to be the case, partially because otherwise who are the top Yonkou Commanders going to fight in the final war?  The Vice Admirals are seemingly far weaker than the top Yonkou Commanders.



rext1 said:


> The entire 4 YONKO = Marine HQ + Schichi paradigm would make no sense if the above were true.



Garp has stated that it will be very tough for the World Government to take on the Whitebeard Pirates and old Rayleigh combined.  The presence of a second Yonkou crew was enough to convince them to stop the war.

Plus- the Gorosei and Kong weren't there at the time.  The Gorosei may turn out to be the most powerful individuals in the World Government, and Kong may be up there as well.



Akitō said:


> Shanks also has a few guys who are close to the Yonkou-level



Beckman is really the only one who I can see fitting that description.  Shanks and Beckman are still no where enough to defeat 4-5 Yonkou.


----------



## rext1 (Dec 5, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If you're referring to the Admirals here, I respectfully disagree if you're saying that they're the most powerful individuals in the World Government.  They may be the most powerful overall fighting force in the marines since there are three of them- but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the most powerful individuals.




Well until the Gorosei and/or the hidden legions of top-tier CP(insert number here) ninja's begin presenting with top-tier feats and stats. It'd be most prudent to assume that the Admirals are the bulk of the WG muscle since Oda has hyped them up as the WG's greatest fighting force himself!



Gohara said:


> I see no reason to believe that a Yonkou crew can't have multiple members who are around Admiral level in terms of power.  If anything I think that it makes more sense for that to be the case, partially because otherwise who are the top Yonkou Commanders going to fight in the final war?  The Vice Admirals are seemingly far weaker than the top Yonkou Commanders.



If the YONKO commanders are soloing Admirals at the EOS...what the hell will the M3 or Supernova captains or YONKO captains or Dragon or Sabo themselves be doing??
If the WG's greatest warriors are to be easily matched by YONKO underlings(who by EOS will likely not even be in the top 20) the One Piece final war arc will be the most anti-climactic, tension-absent final arc in manga history!!



Gohara said:


> Garp has stated that it will be very tough for the World Government to take on the Whitebeard Pirates and old Rayleigh combined.  The presence of a second Yonkou crew was enough to convince them to stop the war.



I dont take these type of hype statements too seriously. Sengoku + Garp were basically uninvolved for the majority of the war. If Old Ray had popped up - they could have handily teamed up and taken him down easy.
WB's + Ray > Marine HQ is easily disproved.
Hype statements tend to have little basis in logic. But is simply ways to get the fanboys hyped up about a character or event.



Gohara said:


> Plus- the Gorosei and Kong weren't there at the time.  The Gorosei may turn out to be the most powerful individuals in the World Government, and Kong may be up there as well.



Entirely speculative.
Again the Gorosei have not received hype nor feats to be classed as >= Admiral level. In fact their own description of the Admirals role and place in the WG speaks against them being so.


----------



## Dunno (Dec 5, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Strongest Creature in the World doesn't need feats. He's the strongest creature in the world.



Being the strongest creature in the world doesn't make Kaido stronger than every other creature in the world. It just means that in a competition of creatureness, he would win. Other creatures could have Haki, DFs, proficiency with a weapon or physical strength to make up the difference in creatureness and thus be overall stronger.


----------



## jNdee~ (Dec 5, 2014)

No feats. Aokiji


----------



## Gonder (Dec 5, 2014)

kaido hype means jack shit, he still going to get his assed kicked by a bunch of  rookies.


----------



## Artful Lurker (Dec 5, 2014)

Judging by the way Doflamingo acted towards the two...I think Kaido has the edge


----------



## Gohara (Dec 6, 2014)

rext1 said:


> Well until the Gorosei and/or the hidden legions of top-tier CP(insert number here) ninja's begin presenting with top-tier feats and stats. It'd be most prudent to assume that the Admirals are the bulk of the WG muscle since Oda has hyped them up as the WG's greatest fighting force himself!



Oda has only said that they're the strongest/ultimate attack force of the Marines.  That doesn't mean that the Gorosei can't be more powerful than them individually.  Especially if they're changed to their prime age.

There are also Kong and current Akainu.

I personally don't see why Oda would make the Gorosei look like strong fighters if he didn't intend for them to fight at some point.  It's also pretty common for characters like them to turn out to be the most powerful fighters, so I think that there's a strong chance that they are more powerful than the Admirals.  There's a chance that they're not, but either way the Admirals don't have to be the most powerful individuals in the World Government.  Given the difference in reactions between Yonkou and Admirals, the fact that if the Admirals are Yonkou level the top Revolutionary and Yonkou Commanders won't have anyone to fight in the final war, and the fact that there are still 7 characters ranked higher than the Admirals in the World Government I think it's more likely that the Admirals are significantly weaker than the Yonkou than that they're on par with them.



rext1 said:


> If the YONKO commanders are soloing Admirals at the EOS...what the hell will the M3 or Supernova captains or YONKO captains or Dragon or Sabo themselves be doing??



Dragon vs. Gorosei Member.

Shanks vs. Blackbeard and/or Gorosei Member.

Sabo vs. Akainu and/or Gorosei Member.

Kid vs. Gorosei Member.

Law vs. Gorosei Member and/or Kaidou and/or Doflamingo.

Big Mam vs. Gorosei Member and/or Kaidou.

Sengoku and Garp vs. Kong.

Big Mam's First Mate vs. Fujitora and/or Kaidou's First Mate.

Beckman vs. Kizaru.

Marco vs. Ryokugyu.

Yasopp vs. Admiral level Smoker and/or Fujitora.

Lucky Roo vs. Admiral level Sentoumaru and/or Fujitora.

Revolutionary Commander vs. Coby and/or Fujitora.

Jozu vs. Coby and/or Fujitora.

These are just examples.

On the other hand, if it's:

Dragon vs. Akainu.

Shanks vs. Fujitora.

Big Mam vs. Ryokugyu.

Sabo vs. Kizaru.

Who do Kid, Law, Beckman, Marco, Big Mam's First Mate, Yasopp, Lucky Roo, Jozu, and other top Revolutionary Commanders fight?



rext1 said:


> If the WG's greatest warriors are to be easily matched by YONKO underlings(who by EOS will likely not even be in the top 20) the One Piece final war arc will be the most anti-climactic, tension-absent final arc in manga history!!



I would rather all the above characters get fights than many characters not get fights because the Admirals are too powerful and the Vice Admirals are too weak.

Also, they're the strongest/ultimate attack force in the Marines.  That doesn't necessarily mean that they're the most powerful individuals in the World Government.  There are potentially 7 characters in the World Government who may be more powerful than them.



rext1 said:


> I dont take these type of hype statements too seriously. Sengoku + Garp were basically uninvolved for the majority of the war. If Old Ray had popped up - they could have handily teamed up and taken him down easy.
> WB's + Ray > Marine HQ is easily disproved.
> Hype statements tend to have little basis in logic. But is simply ways to get the fanboys hyped up about a character or event.



Garp didn't necessarily say that they would lose.  He said that it would be very difficult.  Jozu can fight Aokiji and Marco can fight Kizaru.  That leaves Whitebeard and Rayleigh vs. Sengoku, Garp, and Akainu.



rext1 said:


> Entirely speculative.



It may be speculation, but it's a strong possibility with some basis behind it.  Also, your view here is also speculative.


----------



## trance (Dec 6, 2014)

Gohara still clinging on to his amusing beliefs.


----------



## Akitō (Dec 6, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Beckman is really the only one who I can see fitting that description.  Shanks and Beckman are still no where enough to defeat 4-5 Yonkou.



I'd also put Lucky Roo and maybe Yassop near that level too. At the very least, I think Lucky Roo can give a Yonkou a mid-diff fight. That gives us three characters who can give an Admiral level character a high-diff fight (Marco, Shanks and Beckman), and three characters who can maybe give an Admiral a good fight (Vista, Yassop and Lucky Roo). That's enough to give five Yonkou level characters a decent fight.


----------



## barreltheif (Dec 6, 2014)

What are you guys talking about? The Red Haired Pirates can't beat 5+ yonkou/admirals. You'd have to be completely out of your mind to think that.


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## Gohara (Dec 6, 2014)

Akitō said:


> I'd also put Lucky Roo and maybe Yassop near that level too. At the very least, I think Lucky Roo can give a Yonkou a mid-diff fight. That gives us three characters who can give an Admiral level character a high-diff fight (Marco, Shanks and Beckman), and three characters who can maybe give an Admiral a good fight (Vista, Yassop and Lucky Roo). That's enough to give five Yonkou level characters a decent fight.



I can't really think of any crews in which the 3rd and 4th most powerful can put up a good fight against the 1st most powerful.  Especially the 4th.  Luffy and Sanji is the closest I can think of, but even then that's more so pre time skip IMO.

I mean the 3rd most powerful of the Red Hair Pirates is a maybe I suppose, but not to the point that he couldn't be defeated relatively quickly.  I certainly don't see the 4th most powerful Red Hair Pirate putting up that much of a fight in that scenario.  Vista's too far down the chart to give a Yonkou any more than low difficulty IMO.



barreltheif said:


> The Red Haired Pirates can't beat 5+ yonkou/admirals.



I agree about 5 Yonkou.  However- I can certainly see them defeating 5 Admirals.

I personally think that Shanks alone can take on at least 2, Beckman can take on 1, and Yasopp can take on 1.  That leaves at least around 8 Red Hair Pirate Commanders vs. 1 Admiral.  I estimate that Lucky Roo alone can put up a very good fight against an Admiral, if not even defeat them.  So, with the help of around 7 other Red Hair Pirates they should easily win IMO.


----------



## Freechoice (Dec 6, 2014)

Yeah they can

low diff too


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## Akitō (Dec 7, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I can't really think of any crews in which the 3rd and 4th most powerful can put up a good fight against the 1st most powerful.  Especially the 4th.  Luffy and Sanji is the closest I can think of, but even then that's more so pre time skip IMO.
> 
> I mean the 3rd most powerful of the Red Hair Pirates is a maybe I suppose, but not to the point that he couldn't be defeated relatively quickly.  I certainly don't see the 4th most powerful Red Hair Pirate putting up that much of a fight in that scenario.  Vista's too far down the chart to give a Yonkou any more than low difficulty IMO.



If you're not willing to believe that Vista or Yassop can give a Yonkou-level character a good fight, then you can combine them and have them fight one. You'd still have five near-Yonkou level people on the Red-Hairs' team. The Marines would beat them handily, but it'd be tight enough I think that the Marines wouldn't want to use resources on the fight.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 7, 2014)

Shanks and Beckman can likely edge out 3 Admirals as a duo. 
Don't even see how 5 Admirals would stand a chance against the entire crew...

Shanks seems to seek out and pick his members by hand, so they're likely stronger than Whitebeard's subordinates - other than Lucky Roo and Yasopp - who seem to be similar in power to Jozu/Vista.


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## trance (Dec 7, 2014)

That would mean Shanks stands a solid chance of defeating two Admirals by himself.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Dec 7, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Shanks and Beckman can likely edge out 3 Admirals as a duo.


One Admiral stalls Shanks. The two remaining Admirals crush Ben. All three then steamroll Shanks. Wash, rinse, repeat, 10/10. Get over it. Two characters are never going to beat three Admirals/Emperors.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 7, 2014)

@Trance

I think Shanks can put up a good fight against 2 Admirals, but they'll take him down quite narrowly in the end.

I'm also of the opinion that Shanks/Beckman have better teamwork and synergy than C3, which enables them to edge out the trio. The Colored Trio, despite having lots of AoE, haven't shown the ability to complement each other very well in battle. Their arsenals are geared more toward one-on-one battles, imo.

Beckman is equal to Kizaru in my book, if he isn't marginally superior. He can give Akainu/Aokiji close to extreme-diff battles or beat either one almost half of the time. After thinking about it, he might be stronger than Marco.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Dec 7, 2014)

So you can't even see Prime Roger and Prime WB beating 3 Admirals, Tea?


----------



## trance (Dec 7, 2014)

One Admiral would give Shanks a struggle. Two should decisively defeat him not _narrowly_ defeat him. I think only Roger and Prime Whitebeard can do that well against two Admirals.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Dec 7, 2014)

Well now that you mention it, considering that Shanks can mid diff an Emperor, I don't see why not.


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## Furinji Saiga (Dec 7, 2014)

The Yonko wank from King Itachi and Gohara 

There is no character that can take on two Admirals at the same time in the manga, it is impossible.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Dec 7, 2014)

I would say that the most Red Hair Pirates core crew (or WB+ his commanders) could beat are 3 Admiral level characters. 

It also makes sense from the balance of power point. Marines need to use majority of their force to fight Yonkou crew, opening themselves to attack from another one.

Now, if Shanks and WB allied, WG would need to use its additional resources, even beyond Marines and Schibukai (like CP0 and whatever they are holding in reserve).


----------



## Gohara (Dec 7, 2014)

Akitō said:


> If you're not willing to believe that Vista or Yassop can give a Yonkou-level character a good fight, then you can combine them and have them fight one. You'd still have five near-Yonkou level people on the Red-Hairs' team. The Marines would beat them handily, but it'd be tight enough I think that the Marines wouldn't want to use resources on the fight.



Marco and Vista were set to leave once they got Luffy off the island, which they accomplished right around when the Red Hair Pirates arrived.

Also- if we're assuming that the Admirals are around Yonkou level in terms of power- each of them are decisively above Beckman, Marco, and Yasopp/Vista and by a notable margin in most cases.



Trance said:


> That would mean Shanks stands a solid chance of defeating two Admirals by himself.





Tea said:


> Two characters are never going to beat three Admirals/Emperors.





Furinji Saiga said:


> There is no character that can take on two Admirals at the same time in the manga, it is impossible.



If any of you can prove that no character can defeat two Admirals at once, I will agree.  Otherwise, these are just your opinions that assume your estimations of the Admirals are correct.  I do respect your opinions, but there's nothing wrong with the opinion that Shanks can defeat two Admirals at once if it can't even be proven wrong or at least have strong evidence provided against it.



Lord Melkor said:


> It also makes sense from the balance of power point. Marines need to use majority of their force to fight Yonkou crew, opening themselves to attack from another one.



The World Government doesn't just have the Admirals, though.  They also have the Gorosei, Commander In Chief, Fleet Admiral, Garp (pre time skip), and the Shichibukai.


----------



## trance (Dec 7, 2014)

Why stop at just two Admirals. I bet Shanks can take all three and only be pushed to high difficulty. I mean, he clearly has something that indicates he would. 

Man. Shanks really is the most overrated character in the series.

Why don't you highlight _anything_ that says he can defeat two Admirals? Step up for once in your life.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Dec 7, 2014)

Gohara said:


> The World Government doesn't just have the Admirals, though.  They also have the Gorosei, Commander In Chief, Fleet Admiral, Garp (pre time skip), and the Shichibukai.



And they cannot put all their resources at once against single Yonkou crew. Other Yonkou and Revolutionaries would be free to move as they please.


----------



## Pirao (Dec 7, 2014)

Shanks defeating two admirals 

I guess EoS Luffy and BB can bitchslap the entire WG by themselves amirite guys?


----------



## Pirao (Dec 7, 2014)

Maester said:


> When did all this Shanks wank start anyway? I don't remember it being this bad before.
> 
> On topic Kaido wins with high+ difficulty.



It's just two guys, there will always be people with outlandish opinions like that, what can you do.

It isn't even that crazy compared to other things I've seen people post, like Hancock being admiral level for example


----------



## rext1 (Dec 7, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Dragon vs. Gorosei Member.
> 
> *Shanks vs. Blackbeard and/or Gorosei Member.*
> 
> ...



Due to the matchups I've highlighted I'm now pretty sure that u're merely TROLLin For The LOLLin's. So All my replies from now on will not really be addressed to u. But to actual misguided souls who honestly believe that YONKO >> Admiral.
OR YONKO commanders >= Admirals.

First of all a lot of ur hypothetical matchups involve characters who most/many believe will not be a factor for the EOS battle. Apparently, in ur world the Supernova's signing a peace accord with the current YONKO and summarily co-existing peacefully...is a realistic outcome!



Gohara said:


> I would rather all the above characters get fights than many characters not get fights because the Admirals are too powerful and the Vice Admirals are too weak.
> 
> Also, they're the strongest/ultimate attack force in the Marines.  That doesn't necessarily mean that they're the most powerful individuals in the World Government.  There are potentially 7 characters in the World Government who may be more powerful than them.



Well until these hidden hypothetical > Admiral hordes begin popping up. I feel it most sensible to assume that the WG-affiliated fighters that Oda has potrayed with the most impressive hype + feats on-panel - is the strongest - until shown otherwise. 
Pulling out god-tier characters randomly outta his hat at inexplicable intervals with lil to no foreshadowing - is the kind of amateur hour theatrics I associate with Kishi and Tite - not Oda.
I am also of the opinion that the WG has powerful forces in reserve some of whom( a damn few) are likely to approximate Admiral lvl. But I believe these forces will be the fighters to deal with pirates/revs who are > VA's but not near Admiral level. Which will free up Admirals + top CP-agent(s) to take on the pirate/rev bigwigs mano-a-manoi!!



Gohara said:


> Garp didn't necessarily say that they would lose.  He said that it would be very difficult.  Jozu can fight Aokiji and Marco can fight Kizaru.  That leaves Whitebeard and Rayleigh vs. Sengoku, Garp, and Akainu.



Akainu's bloodlusted rampage across MF IMO showed that the WB commanders/YONKO commanders were definitively outclassed by a serious, focused Admiral. The WB commanders minus Jozu basically bunched up as a group - forming a human wall - and none managed to lay a scratch on him.

Due to PH we can somewhat scale Aokiji to Akainu's beastliness.

BB and his crew were fleeing in fear at the prospect of facing down Akainu alone...yet not much later they were kicking WB commanders ass across the NW.this Is a testament in my mind to the raw, inescapable fact that YONKO underlings and Admirals are on vastly differing tiers.



Gohara said:


> It may be speculation, but it's a strong possibility with some basis behind it.  Also, your view here is also speculative.



Not speculative to the same degree that your out-there, wazoo, with-little-basis-for-anything-actually-established-in-the-manga readings of OP seem to be.
You've made a habit of hyping featless and even in some instances appearance-less hypothetical OP characters to the high heavens. Guys who have not even been shown to throw a straight punch are somehow Admiral-level++??


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2014)

Why would Sengoku and Garp fight Kong? 

Anyway, Whitebeard, the strongest Yonkou, was forced to completely focus on Aokiji when they were fighting. Imagine if Kizaru was attacking him with hugely damaging light attacks from behind while he was struggling with Aokiji. Whitebeard would die.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 7, 2014)

Trance said:


> I bet Shanks can take all three and only be pushed to high difficulty.



I'm not sure that I agree with that.  Especially with only high difficulty.  It's a possibility, though.



Trance said:


> Why don't you highlight _anything_ that says he can defeat two Admirals? Step up for once in your life.



I have no proof, but I'm not the one stating my opinion as if it's a fact.  However, I can explain why I believe that to be the case.  Old Whitebeard bested pre time skip Akainu with, _at most_, around high difficulty IMO even while having many disadvantages.  That difficulty level should be knocked down _at least_ one level if those disadvantages are taken away, and pre time skip Akainu is the most powerful Admiral.  So, I view old Whitebeard as being able to defeat most Admirals with less than mid difficulty.  Adding another one shouldn't be enough to make up that gap.  In fact, I regularly see people say that an Admiral can defeat multiple characters who they can only defeat with around mid difficulty in one on one fights.  I see no reason why that reasoning would be different for the Yonkou vs. characters they can defeat with around mid difficulty.  I believe that Shanks is more powerful than old Whitebeard, so what I'm saying about my views on old Whitebeard vs. an Admiral go even more for him.



Lord Melkor said:


> And they cannot put all their resources at once against single Yonkou crew. Other Yonkou and Revolutionaries would be free to move as they please.



They wouldn't necessarily have to.  If just 3 Admirals are enough to defeat the Red Hair Pirates, the other forces can stay at their posts.  If they need to add a Shichibukai to put the fight decisively in their favor, that won't effect the World Government much.

The World Government had more forces than that at Marineford, and nothing seemingly happened while that war was going on at the time.



Pirao said:


> I guess EoS Luffy and BB can bitchslap the entire WG by themselves amirite guys?



I don't see how defeating two Admirals means that you can defeat the entire World Government when there are still the Gorosei, Kong, the Fleet Admiral, an Admiral, and the Shichibukai.



Pirao said:


> there will always be people with outlandish opinions like that, what can you do.



Well, you're more than welcome to prove them wrong.  



rext1 said:


> Due to the matchups I've highlighted I'm now pretty sure that u're merely TROLLin



???

My apologies if it comes off that way, but I'm not really sure what you mean here.



rext1 said:


> So All my replies from now on will not really be addressed to u. But to actual misguided souls who honestly believe that YONKO >> Admiral.
> OR YONKO commanders >= Admirals.



I see.  Well, then, may you include proof in those replies?  That way I can understand what I'm missing and we can come to an agreement.

So far, I find the Yonkou getting far bigger reactions than the Admirals and around a handful of below Yonkou level characters fighting on par with Admirals to be more convincing than any reasoning I've seen suggesting that the Admirals are around or close to Yonkou level in terms of power.



rext1 said:


> First of all a lot of ur hypothetical matchups involve characters who most/many believe will not be a factor for the EOS battle.



???

Why won't the Revolutionaries, the Red Hair Pirates, the Blackbeard Pirates, the Whitebeard Pirates, the Big Mam Pirate's, Kaidou's crew, the highest ranked members of the World Government who basically signify the corruption of the World Government, Sengoku, Garp, Kong, and the Admirals be part of the final war?

Also, I'm just listing example fights to get across my point that there are enough characters for the top Revolutionary and Yonkou Commanders to fight if the Admirals are well below Yonkou level, whereas that's not the case if the Admirals are around or close to Yonkou level.



rext1 said:


> Apparently, in ur world the Supernova's signing a peace accord with the current YONKO and summarily co-existing peacefully...is a realistic outcome!



I don't think it's so much that they'll sign a peace treaty as much as that their main enemies will be the World Government.  I think that Big Mam will make friends with Luffy.



rext1 said:


> I feel it most sensible to assume that the WG-affiliated fighters that Oda has potrayed with the most impressive hype + feats on-panel - is the strongest - until shown otherwise.



I'm not sure that I agree that the Admirals have more hype.  More feats, sure, but Moriah has more feats than Dragon.  Yet, Dragon is many times more powerful than Moriah.



rext1 said:


> Pulling out god-tier characters randomly outta his hat at inexplicable intervals with lil to no foreshadowing - is the kind of amateur hour theatrics I associate with Kishi and Tite - not Oda.



I respectfully disagree that there hasn't been any foreshadowing.  Oda's shown the Gorosei and Kong to look very strong.  The Gorosei essentially signify the corruption of the World Government, which is one of the main storylines in the series.  I also think that Bonney's abilities and implied multiple captures are foreshadowing to her using her abilities to turn the Gorosei into their prime ages.  As for Kong, I think his name and relationship with Garp may serve as foreshadowing.  Luffy's family is the Monkey family.  Kong's theme may turn out to be monkey like, given his name.

Also, Oda has said that the Marineford War is a side show compared to the final war.  The Marineford War has the Admirals.  If they were just going to be the top active forces of the World Government in that fight again, it doesn't seem like it's going to top it to that extent.  Not to mention the Marines surrendered at the prospect of having to fight two Yonkou crews.  Garp has also said that defeating both the Whitebeard Pirates and old Rayleigh at the same time will be very difficult.  I don't see how they're going to put up much of a fight against the Supernovas as well as their crews, the Revolutionaries, the Red Hair Pirates, potentially the Big Mam Pirates, and the allies of all those crews and organizations.  Especially since the Shichibukai may be abolished by that point.  Even if we set aside our disagreement on how powerful the Admirals are, 3 Admirals would be crushed by that combination.



rext1 said:


> I am also of the opinion that the WG has powerful forces in reserve some of whom( a damn few) are likely to approximate Admiral lvl.



You rejected the Gorosei and Kong getting involved based on there being no foreshadowing and/or proof that they will fight in the final war.  That reasoning excludes characters we don't even know about.  I find it far more likely that Oda will go with what characters are already known about and have storylines and themes established that go against the protagonists.



rext1 said:


> The WB commanders minus Jozu basically bunched up as a group - forming a human wall - and none managed to lay a scratch on him.



We didn't see that fight.  We just know that they confronted.  We don't know to what extent they fought.



rext1 said:


> BB and his crew were fleeing in fear at the prospect of facing down Akainu alone



Blackbeard was laughing about it, and just saying that he doesn't want to fight Akainu yet.  The rest of the crew ran because he told them to.  Blackbeard's crew mates didn't show any signs of being afraid of Akainu.



rext1 said:


> yet not much later they were kicking WB commanders ass across the NW.



That hasn't really been stated or implied.  We just know that the Blackbeard Pirates became a Yonkou level crew within 2 years after that.



rext1 said:


> Not speculative to the same degree that your out-there, wazoo, with-little-basis-for-anything-actually-established-in-the-manga readings of OP seem to be.



How so?  



rext1 said:


> You've made a habit of hyping featless and even in some instances appearance-less hypothetical OP characters to the high heavens.



What characters are you referring to here?

Also, if we go by feats, Moriah is more powerful than around half of the Yonkou.



Luke said:


> Why would Sengoku and Garp fight Kong?



They have a relationship with him, and when they take a stand against the corrupt World Government, it's very reasonable that Kong would feel betrayed by them.  Much like when Yamamoto fought Ukitake and Kyoraku.  Sengoku and Garp may try to talk some sense into Kong while fighting him.



Luke said:


> Anyway, Whitebeard, the strongest Yonkou, was forced to completely focus on Aokiji when they were fighting. Imagine if Kizaru was attacking him with hugely damaging light attacks from behind while he was struggling with Aokiji. Whitebeard would die.



I respectfully disagree that old Whitebeard is the most powerful Yonkou and that he was clearly forced to completely focus on Aokiji.  If two Admirals are coming at him from two different angles, I can see him using his quake abilities on both sides.  I also think that he has significantly more attack power and durability than them, so if they just stand there I can see him defeating them very quickly, whereas if he stands there I think that it will take a while for them to defeat him.


----------



## jNdee~ (Dec 7, 2014)

Pls stop disgracing Shanks


----------



## trance (Dec 7, 2014)

Again, there's zero implications that Shanks was superior to Whitebeard. Hell, even saying he's _as strong_ is a stretch. 

Shanks high point will be an eventual clash with Teach, which he will inevitably lose.

And Teach didn't laughing while fleeing. His laugh is "Zehahahaha" not "Gyahahahaha".


----------



## Amol (Dec 8, 2014)

Why people still argue with Gohara and then cry about Shanks wanking ?
As soon as he said that Shanks was superior to WB, he should have been ignored .


----------



## Gohara (Dec 8, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Well, you already know why I think that he is.  However, I'm not saying that it's a fact.

Yes, but if Shanks even gives end of series Blackbeard around mid difficulty, that alone will lead me to believe that Shanks is around as powerful as old Whitebeard.  If he gives him more than mid difficulty, that will lead me to believe that Shanks is more powerful than old Whitebeard.

Even if so, that would mean that someone even weaker than Blackbeard was laughing.

@ Amol.

In any situation where someone has clear proof of their views, they are going to provide it.  If they aren't going to provide it, then they likely don't have proof.  Insults don't change that you don't have proof.  If anything, it just furthers that.  That being said, I do respect your opinions on the matter, and if that's how you feel then more power to you.


----------



## trance (Dec 8, 2014)

Doflamingo and Moriah both laughed at Whitebeard's display of power. Hawkins remained stoic despite Borsalino's presence right in front of him. Reactions are never clear-cut implications for power levels.


----------



## MrPopo (Dec 8, 2014)

could go extreme diff to either side


----------



## barreltheif (Dec 8, 2014)

Gohara said:


> In any situation where someone has clear proof of their views, they are going to provide it.  If they aren't going to provide it, then they likely don't have proof.  Insults don't change that you don't have proof.  If anything, it just furthers that.  That being said, I do respect your opinions on the matter, and if that's how you feel then more power to you.


----------



## jNdee~ (Dec 8, 2014)

Gohara, you prove to us your claims.


----------



## Canute87 (Dec 8, 2014)

He can't, because everything is *IMO* with him.


----------



## redhawk35 (Dec 8, 2014)

kaido mid diffs aokijis ass


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## Pirao (Dec 8, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I don't see how defeating two Admirals means that you can defeat the entire World Government when there are still the Gorosei, Kong, the Fleet Admiral, an Admiral, and the Shichibukai.



The point




You



> Well, you're more than welcome to prove them wrong.



Actually you're more than welcome to prove them right, since you're the one who's claiming something. But don't worry, I love bumping threads, as I'm sure you know, and some of these will certainly be getting bumped in the future 



Canute87 said:


> He can't, because everything is *IMO* with him.



Yeah, basically he hides behind "IMO" to justify spouting BS all the time. Whatever, the more materia there is, the more fun these threads will be in the future


----------



## Tenma (Dec 8, 2014)

Why the hell would the Marco Pirates play a major role in the final battle? They had their turn in Marineford already. The new generation will take their place. They will possibly play a role as Luffy's allies, but likely as fodder control. The matchup against the main marines like the Admirals, Smoker, Sentomaru, Tashigi and Vegapunk will and should fall to the SHs, Dragon and Sabo. More than likely it will be the SHs + Allies (aka all the pals they have made in the last 700 chapters) + Revolutionaries against the WG.


----------



## Magentabeard (Dec 8, 2014)

The only admiral Shanks can mid diff is Fujitora


----------



## Gohara (Dec 8, 2014)

@ barreltheif.

As I said, we don't know that the title isn't simply a reputation that he gained in his prime.  Titles are fine, but the circumstances behind them still need to be proven as well.



Trance said:


> Doflamingo and Moriah both laughed at Whitebeard's display of power. Hawkins remained stoic despite Borsalino's presence right in front of him. Reactions are never clear-cut implications for power levels.



Doflamingo and Moriah didn't confront Whitebeard.  Hawkins doesn't seem to be afraid of Kizaru.  I don't really see how this disagrees with anything that I'm saying here.



Battousai said:


> Gohara, you prove to us your claims.





Pirao said:


> Actually you're more than welcome to prove them right, since you're the one who's claiming something.



As Canute said, I didn't make any claims here.  I have no issue with the opinion that Admirals are around as powerful as the Yonkou.  I'm merely asking for proof that such is the case from those who are saying or implying that it's factually the case.



Pirao said:


> The point
> 
> You



???



Pirao said:


> Yeah, basically he hides behind "IMO" to justify spouting BS all the time.



???

I'm making a distinction between fact and opinion.  I'm not going to say something is a fact if I don't think that it is.  I've given plenty of reasoning to back my belief that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  The Yonkou get far bigger reactions, and the Admirals have had around a handful of confrontations in which they were fought on par with by characters well below Yonkou level so far.  I also don't see who the characters below Yonkou level but significantly above Vice Admiral level are going to fight if the Admirals are around Yonkou level.

While I believe that reasoning is logical, it's still not full fledged proof that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  So, I'm saying IMO because it's in my opinion and I'm being considerate of others' opinions.  In no way, shape, or form have I avoided posting my reasoning- so I don't see how I'm hiding behind saying IMO.



Tenma said:


> Why the hell would the Marco Pirates play a major role in the final battle?



The Whitebeard Pirates have a bone to pick with the World Government, and they stand against the corruption of the World Government.  Also, given that it's the final war, it's likely that every or at least almost every big player will be involved.  Yes, we've seen them fight at the Marineford War, but we barely saw them fight.


----------



## trance (Dec 8, 2014)

Like I said, _reactions are never clear-cut implications in regards to power levels_. In some cases, they need to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Tenma (Dec 8, 2014)

> The Whitebeard Pirates have a bone to pick with the World Government, and they stand against the corruption of the World Government. Also, given that it's the final war, it's likely that every or at least almost every big player will be involved. Yes, we've seen them fight at the Marineford War, but we barely saw them fight.



It's possible they will be involved under the banner of Luffy's allies, but they aren't going to overshadow the Strawhats and Revos by doing the heavy lifting for them.

The Admirals may fight the WB Commanders again, btu at best it will be an unfinished skirmish ala Marineford. The decisive battles will fall to the new generation.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 8, 2014)

Trance said:


> Like I said, _reactions are never clear-cut implications in regards to power levels_.



If you mean clear cut in the sense that it clearly proves that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general, then I can maybe agree.  However, the reactions the Yonkou have gotten have been consistently much greater than the reactions the Admirals have gotten so far.  So, even if it's not full fledged proof, it's at least strong evidence.



Tenma said:


> It's possible they will be involved under the banner of Luffy's allies, but they aren't going to overshadow the Strawhats and Revos by doing the heavy lifting for them.
> 
> The Admirals may fight the WB Commanders again, btu at best it will be an unfinished skirmish ala Marineford. The decisive battles will fall to the new generation.



I partially agree and partially disagree with that.  I agree that, for the most part, the Whitebeard Commanders won't be involved in the top fights.  However, I can certainly see Marco and maybe Jozu being involved in full fights against the Admirals.


----------



## jNdee~ (Dec 8, 2014)

BB shitted his pants when Akainu hunted them. That was a yonkou level crew.


----------



## trance (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If you mean clear cut in the sense that it clearly proves that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general, then I can maybe agree.  However, the reactions the Yonkou have gotten have been consistently much greater than the reactions the Admirals have gotten so far.  *So, even if it's not full fledged proof, it's at least strong evidence.*



It's not. Evidence is the same as proof. What were talking is much more intangible in comparison to say, feats. As such, it's *much* more prone to speculation and controversy.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 9, 2014)

Battousai said:


> BB shitted his pants when Akainu hunted them. That was a yonkou level crew.



Blackbeard's crew members were laughing about it, so I wouldn't really say that they were afraid.  They certainly didn't want to fight him, but fighting an Admiral just for a ship when you can get one for free wouldn't make much sense.

The Blackbeard Pirates weren't a Yonkou level crew yet.



Trance said:


> It's not. Evidence is the same as proof. What were talking is much more intangible in comparison to say, feats. As such, it's *much* more prone to speculation and controversy.



Evidence isn't necessarily proof.  It can consist of facts, which that evidence does, but evidence itself is not always proof of the conclusion on it's own.


----------



## trance (Dec 9, 2014)

Evidence- the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Proof and Evidence are synonyms of each other. What the fuck?


----------



## Gohara (Dec 9, 2014)

-*Available* facts =/= having all the facts necessary to prove a point.

-Indicating often means suggesting, not proving.

-Synonym just means two words that are closely associated.


----------



## trance (Dec 9, 2014)

Then the faults on you. You said the Yonko garnering consistently greater reactions than the Admirals was "strong evidence" that Yonko > Admirals. Since there are no "available" facts, it's not evidence. I swear you resort to semantics at a moment's notice.


----------



## Pirao (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> As Canute said, I didn't make any claims here.  I have no issue with the opinion that Admirals are around as powerful as the Yonkou.  I'm merely asking for proof that such is the case from those who are saying or implying that it's factually the case.



You sure did, you said a Yonkou can handle two admirals.




> ???



Yes, that gives a clear picture of what I was trying to say.




> ???
> 
> I'm making a distinction between fact and opinion.  I'm not going to say something is a fact if I don't think that it is.  I've given plenty of reasoning to back my belief that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  The Yonkou get far bigger reactions, and the Admirals have had around a handful of confrontations in which they were fought on par with by characters well below Yonkou level so far.  I also don't see who the characters below Yonkou level but significantly above Vice Admiral level are going to fight if the Admirals are around Yonkou level.



I'm pretty sure we all know what we post here is opinion until proven correct by the manga. However, not all opinions are equal, so hiding behind "IMO" won't make opinions that have no basis behind them any less worthless.


----------



## Vengeance (Dec 9, 2014)

Battousai said:


> BB shitted his pants when Akainu hunted them. That was a yonkou level crew.



Nope it wasn't. The Blackbeard Pirates grew even stronger and became a Yonkou crew during the timeskip, they weren't on that level right from the start.



Trance said:


> Evidence- the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
> 
> Proof and Evidence are synonyms of each other. What the fuck?



Semantics...^^
Evidence is generally weaker than proof, but the two can be used as synonyms nevertheless.
Evidence: the facts, signs or objects that make you believe something is true.
Proof: information, documents etc that show something is true.


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well, you're more than welcome to prove them wrong.



That's the thing though ........ most people have already proven your wild "IMOs" completely wrong. You point blankly refuse to accept them or engage in more wild baseless nonsense to cover it up and then continue to repeat the mantra ......... "prove me wrong". 

Even when there's actual on paper manga evidence provided by Oda ........ such as the scan barrelthief provided of Whitebeard being labelled as the WSM, you refuse to believe it, instead clinging on to some delusional fantasy of Shanks being superior and being able to low diff Admirals and handle multiple number of them at one time so why should people even bother?

Not to sound harsh, but it's the reason why barely anyone reads your posts anymore or engages with you.


----------



## barreltheif (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ barreltheif.
> As I said, we don't know that the title isn't simply a reputation that he gained in his prime.  Titles are fine, but the circumstances behind them still need to be proven as well.




I wasn't talking about a title or an epithet anything like that. Newgate's epithet is "Whitebeard".
I was talking about a fact about Whitebeard. I was talking about the fact that, confirmed by the narrator, that he is


----------



## Gohara (Dec 9, 2014)

Trance said:


> Then the faults on you. You said the Yonko garnering consistently greater reactions than the Admirals was "strong evidence" that Yonko > Admirals. Since there are no "available" facts, it's not evidence.



I think that you're misunderstanding what I mean here.  A point can be supported by facts, but that doesn't make the point itself a fact.  Evidence can consist of available facts, and the reactions is an available fact that supports my opinion that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  However, it doesn't make that opinion factual.

My apologies for the confusion.



Trance said:


> I swear you resort to semantics at a moment's notice.



???

You brought up the debate about the meaning of the words being used.  



Pirao said:


> You sure did, you said a Yonkou can handle two admirals.



I said that, in my opinion, they can do that.  It would be a claim if I outright stated that they can do that with no questions asked.



Pirao said:


> Yes, that gives a clear picture of what I was trying to say.



I'm not sure what you mean here, but I assume you're saying that you were questioning what I meant here.  If so, I was responding to the idea that a Yonkou defeating two Admirals means that it would be easy for the Yonkou to defeat the World Government.  I pointed out that there would still be a lot more left of the World Government's forces, so the idea that the World Government would easily lose in that scenario isn't necessarily true.

My apologies for the confusion.



Pirao said:


> I'm pretty sure we all know what we post here is opinion until proven correct by the manga. However, not all opinions are equal, so hiding behind "IMO" won't make opinions that have no basis behind them any less worthless.



Insulting people when they disagree with you doesn't really make it sound like an opinion.  Especially with the way some claims are worded.  They come off as being stated in a factual sense.  If you meant to state your views here as being your opinion, then my apologies for misunderstanding.  However, again, insulting people when they disagree isn't really something people do when stating an opinion.

As far as having opinions with more basis goes, I don't see how the Yonkou being significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general has no basis, but the Admirals being around Yonkou level has a lot of basis.  The only reasoning I've really seen in favor of the Admirals is that they're the strongest/ultimate attack force of the Marines, but the conclusions that can rightfully be derived from that have a big range.  Even if we exclude all other current evidence on either side, that range alone means it would be anyone's guess as to whether that means that they are significantly weaker than the Yonkou in general or that they are around Yonkou level.  So, it's not something to ignore, but it doesn't really serve as much evidence.

On the other hand, there are several pieces of evidence that favor the Yonkou here.  The Yonkou have consistently gotten far bigger reactions than the Admirals have so far.  If there were only one or two comparisons where that's the case, I may not think as much of it, but there are many cases.  Multiple characters who are well below Yonkou level have fought on par with Admirals.  Similarly- if there were only one or two comparisons where that's the case, I may not think as much of it, but there are many cases.

So while I have no issue with the opinion that the Admirals are around Yonkou level- and it could turn out to be true- I do believe that there is more evidence favoring the Yonkou being significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  Even setting that aside, though, there certainly isn't notably more evidence favoring the Admirals here.  So, I don't think calling others' opinions on the matter outlandish and insulting them is really warranted.  If someone is really going to act that way, I think that they should at least have the evidence to back it up.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> That's the thing though ........ most people have already proven your wild "IMOs" completely wrong.



When has anyone shown proof of the Admirals being around Yonkou level?  If you can show me instances of most people doing this, I will agree and even have no issue admitting that I was "wild" to disagree.  On that note, calling someone's opinions wild is an easy response that anyone can say to those who disagree with them.  With all due respect, it's essentially just the same as saying that my opinions are clearly wrong, and if that were true you would have long provided proof by now.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> You point blankly refuse to accept them



Yes, I point blankly refuse to accept that the Admirals being called the Marines' strongest/ultimate attack force is proof that they are around Yonkou level.  I'll accept it as an opinion, but not as a proven fact.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> or engage in more wild baseless nonsense



You haven't really substantiated the claim that the Yonkou getting far bigger reactions than the Admirals in general and characters below Yonkou level fighting on par with Admirals as being wild and baseless.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> and then continue to repeat the mantra ......... "prove me wrong".



This implies that I'm the one making a claim, but that's not really the case.  In fact, it's not even really about me.  It's about when you say others' views are outlandish, you should have the proof to back it up.  It's nothing against you.  I'm just asking you to satisfy the burden of proof that is on you, which I think is fair considering your reactions when people disagree with you.  If all you want to say is that the Admirals are around Yonkou level in your opinion, then more power to you.

So, I didn't make a claim, and then said that I'm right unless you prove me wrong.  Rather, I'm asking for a proof of a claim that was made and haven't said that my own opinion on the matter is factual.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Even when there's actual on paper manga evidence provided by Oda ........ such as the scan barrelthief provided of Whitebeard being labelled as the WSM, you refuse to believe it, instead clinging on to some delusional fantasy of Shanks being superior and being able to low diff Admirals and handle multiple number of them at one time so why should people even bother?



The opinion that Shanks > old/sick Whitebeard and the opinion that Shanks can defeat an average Admiral with around low difficulty are two separate opinions.  I can actually agree that the reasoning behind saying old/sick Whitebeard = or > Shanks is solid.  I'm only saying that it's not a fact, because although old/sick Whitebeard does have the title of World's Strongest Man, the details surrounding those circumstances are still important.  Otherwise I can say that Moriah is around as powerful as Kaidou, because it's been stated that they've fought on par with each other.  This is a case where my personal opinion- which is that Shanks > old/sick Whitebeard- doesn't clearly have more evidence than the opinion that old/sick Whitebeard = or > Shanks.

The Admirals don't really have much going for them that clearly suggest that they're around Yonkou level, so I'm more inclined to ask you to satisfy the burden of proof that is on you when saying that's clearly the case- especially since that usually comes with the baggage of insulting others who disagree with you on the matter- than I am to ask you to do the same when you say old/sick Whitebeard > Shanks.  The latter opinion is still not factual, but again I can understand why some may not entertain Shanks being > old/sick Whitebeard as the more likely opinion unless more evidence or proof comes out showing that to be the case.

As for my opinions being delusional, I recall having similar debates about Vice Admirals.  I remember some reactions towards opinions that suggest the Vice Admirals are significantly weaker than characters whose level of power are similar to Bartolomeo and/or current Sabo being similar to some reactions towards opinions that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  Yet Maynard and Bastille have been owned by Bartolomeo and current Sabo, respectfully.  Maybe we should wait for full fledged proof to be available before we criticize others for having a different opinion than ourselves.  



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Not to sound harsh, but it's the reason why barely anyone reads your posts anymore or engages with you.



With all due respect, this is just an empty insult on your part.  I have around a dozen debates going on this forum, and dozens elsewhere.  I don't see how that's "barely" engaging me in debates, and just seems like you're projecting your own views of me and claiming that everyone thinks like you.  I'm sure that I have my detractors, but the same can be said for almost anyone that debates a lot.  I also know many people who agree with me, as I'm sure you know many people who agree with you.

No one is going to refuse to provide proof if they clearly have it.  Someone disagreeing with me a lot wouldn't stop them from showing me proof if they clearly have it.  In fact, they would likely be more inclined to provide proof because they disagree with me a lot.  If they are refusing to provide proof, it's likely because they don't have proof.



barreltheif said:


> I wasn't talking about a title or an epithet anything like that. Newgate's epithet is "Whitebeard".
> I was talking about a fact about Whitebeard. I was talking about the fact that, confirmed by the narrator, that he is



Whether it's a fact or opinion, it's a title.  However, it being a title on it's own doesn't decide whether it's fact or opinion.

Whitebeard's title does matter, but so do the circumstances surrounding it.  Otherwise I can say that Moriah is equal to Kaidou, since that was also written in the Manga.


----------



## Typhon (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> As far as having opinions with more basis goes, I don't see how the Yonkou being significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general has no basis, but the Admirals being around Yonkou level has a lot of basis.  *The only reasoning I've really seen in favor of the Admirals is that they're the strongest/ultimate attack force of the Marines, but the conclusions that can rightfully be derived from that have a big range*.  Even if we exclude all other current evidence on either side, that range alone means it would be anyone's guess as to whether that means that they are significantly weaker than the Yonkou in general or that they are around Yonkou level.  So, it's not something to ignore, but it doesn't really serve as much evidence.



No, not really.

>Admirals have some of the greatest feats shown so far.
>Admirals were compared to the Yonkou by Chinjao. (A living legend)

Yonkou being significantly stronger then Admirals have an even worse basis then being equal with them. I think a lot people base the yonkou being much stronger because they scale them all to WB, which no matter what excuse, really shouldn't be the case. Not like any of them were said to be the closest to One Piece and Akainu still nearly took his head off.


----------



## Ekkologix (Dec 9, 2014)

i dont think admirals are yonkou level...atleast not when the yonkou is at their best.
if admirals and yonkou were equal, the navy wouldn't need all that protection on marineford (given that the fleet admiral might be stronger than the admirals)

we also see how doflamingo is comparable to the admirals and he isnt scared of fujitora, yet he fears kaido so much. also how shanks was able to forcefully stop the war. If aokiji and kizaru were really yonkou levels then marco and jozu would of been wiped. 

yonkou is something even the fleet admiral takes a big caution of.

we can say that people that are yonkou level include sengoku, post time skip akainu, post timeskip mihawk, but not the pre-timeskip version of them
also post time skip teach with the mastery of quake fruit can be considered yonkou level.

as far as yonkou taking 2 admirals at a time i think the yonkou can survive for quite awhile but still taking 2 admirals together is a suicide. Its kinda like luffy taking over 2 zoros at a time or luffy vs zoro+sanji in which the difference between them isnt that big making the one-man team lose


----------



## trance (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I think that you're misunderstanding what I mean here.  A point can be supported by facts, but that doesn't make the point itself a fact.  Evidence can consist of available facts, and the reactions is an available fact that supports my opinion that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general.  However, it doesn't make that opinion factual.
> 
> My apologies for the confusion.



I'm misunderstanding? You have some nerve, you half-wit ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).

Their reactions aren't an available fact. They're entirely subjective. I could nitpick at them but I won't.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 9, 2014)

Typhon said:


> No, not really.
> 
> >Admirals have some of the greatest feats shown so far.
> >Admirals were compared to the Yonkou by Chinjao. (A living legend)



Whitebeard is the only Yonkou who has fought on panel so far.  Jinbe has more feats than every Yonkou so far.

Whitebeard is the only character well above Yonkou level who has fought so far, so it makes sense that the Admirals have some of the greatest feats shown currently.

Chinjao didn't compare them in that sense.  He just said that they're obstacles, which is true regardless of which side is right in this case.  His doubt that Luffy can defeat the Admirals also came at a time in which he had yet to see close to Luffy's full power.

Rayleigh, a living legend, expressed that there's no point in Luffy proceeding to the New World if a situation like what happened on Sabaody pre time skip can happen again.  So in Rayleigh's mind Luffy around 6 months ago- which is when Rayleigh left Luffy after thinking that was enough training- was capable of fending off such an invasion.  That invasion includes Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many Marines.  Rayleigh thinks that an even weaker version of Luffy can fend off that invasion.  On the other hand Law thinks that even if he teams up with current Luffy, they have a small chance of defeating a Yonkou even after pulling out the rug from under him.

Rayleigh ---> Luffy from around 6 months ago should be able to fend off Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many Marines.

Law ---> Current Luffy and himself combined have a small chance of defeating Kaidou even if they pull the rug out from under him prior to fighting him.

P.S.  By fend off, I'm not saying that Luffy from around 6 months ago can defeat that specific combination of characters.  However, it seems unreasonable that Luffy could fend off that invasion if he wasn't at least capable of putting up a decent fight against an Admiral.  Current Luffy is even more powerful than that version of Luffy, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that current Luffy can put up a very good fight against an Admiral.  On the other hand, current Luffy and current Law combined don't stand much of a chance against Kaidou.  I find that, among other comparisons, to be very telling.

That being said, my opinion that the Yonkou are significantly more powerful than the Admirals in general is still not a fact, and I respect the opinions of those who may disagree.



Typhon said:


> I think a lot people base the yonkou being much stronger because they scale them all to WB, which no matter what excuse, really shouldn't be the case. off.



While I think that there is good reason to believe that Shanks is at least around as powerful as old/sick Whitebeard, that's not usually the reasoning I see.  The reasoning I usually see revolves around the Yonkou consistently getting bigger reactions, many characters below Yonkou level fighting on par with Admirals, the comparison of Luffy vs. Kizaru/Kuma/Sentoumaru/several PXs or so/many Marines and Luffy/Law vs. Kaidou that I mentioned above, etc..



Trance said:


> I'm misunderstanding?



I think that you took it the wrong way.  Indeed, you seemed to think that just because I agree that evidence means available facts, that the reasoning I posted doesn't constitute evidence.  However, I'm agreeing that my point isn't a proven fact, not that I haven't used any facts to support my views.

That being said, what I said here wasn't meant to offend you, so I'm not sure why you seemed to take it as an insult.  I was just clarifying my point because it seemed that you misunderstood what I was saying.  I did apologize for the confusion.  My apologies if it came off as an insult.



Trance said:


> Their reactions aren't an available fact.



Which reactions?

I've mentioned Jinbe showing fear towards Big Mam to the point that he was sweating, but had no issue fighting Akainu.  I don't see how that's not a fact.

I've mentioned Doflamingo showing fear towards Kaidou to the point that his face was turning pale, but had no issue fighting and insulting Fujitora as well as no problem breaking Aokiji's ice and laughing at his face.  I don't see how that's not a fact.

I've mentioned there being little to no reaction of fear when pre time skip Luffy stood face to face with all three Admirals and practically dared them to stop him, and that nearly every notable character on Fishman Island at the time freaked out at post time skip Luffy yelling at Big Mam over the phone.  I don't see how that's not a fact.

I've mentioned multiple pre time skip Supernovas showing no fear of the Admirals even while standing face to face with them, but characters multiple times more powerful than them showing fear towards the Yonkou even when they're not standing face to face with them.  I don't see how that's not a fact.

I've mentioned that one Yonkou crew going on the move to wage war warranted the World Government to gather the majority of their active forces- including 6 or 7 characters who are Admiral level or higher- to counter that Yonkou crew.  When an Admiral goes to Dressrosa, Doflamingo casually talks about just him and/or some (or perhaps all) members of his crew defeating said Admiral.  I don't see how that's not a fact.

There are also still:

-Garp stating that it would be very difficult for the Marines and Shichibukai to defeat the Whitebeard Pirates and old Rayleigh combined.

-The World Government agreeing to stop the war at the prospect of fighting a 2nd Yonkou crew over taking out half the Yonkou and showing those 2 Yonkou and Ace's head to the public to discourage other characters from becoming pirates.  That decision doesn't make much sense if 2 Admirals can defeat 1 Yonkou without much of a problem, and in that case there were 5 or 6 Admiral level or higher characters on their side vs. just 1 Yonkou on the other side.


----------



## barreltheif (Dec 9, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Whether it's a fact or opinion, it's a title.  However, it being a title on it's own doesn't decide whether it's fact or opinion.
> 
> Whitebeard's title does matter, but so do the circumstances surrounding it.  Otherwise I can say that Moriah is equal to Kaidou, since that was also written in the Manga.




No. "World's Strongest Man" is not a title. Whitebeard didn't win some arm wrestling competition and get a title for it or something. The narrator is not stating that Whitebeard has a title. Notice how the narrator says nothing about a title. Notice how Sengoku says nothing about a title. Notice how Buggy says nothing about a title.

The narrator is stating a fact about Whitebeard. Sengoku is stating is a fact about Whitebeard. They are stating that he is the strongest man.
Shanks is a man in the world.
Whitebeard is stronger than Shanks.


----------



## trance (Dec 9, 2014)

Overestimation and fodder characters. Nothing to see here.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 9, 2014)

Trance said:


> I'm misunderstanding? *You have some nerve, you half-wit ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).*
> 
> Their reactions aren't an available fact. They're entirely subjective. I could nitpick at them but I won't.



       .


----------



## Amol (Dec 9, 2014)

Trance finally lost his patience and cool


----------



## Gohara (Dec 10, 2014)

@ barreltheif.

You're not really explaining how it's not a title.  You're just saying that Oda wrote him to be called the World's Strongest Man, which doesn't suggest that it's not a title.  Plus, and again, Oda also wrote Moriah to be said to be on par with Kaidou.  So if we're going to exclude important details and circumstances, then we should also consider that to be a fact.  Also, it's not uncommon for writers to work in other characters being on par with or more powerful than characters who have been called the strongest.  So while I don't mind agreeing that there is solid evidence for Whitebeard being more powerful, it's still not a fact and there's reason to doubt that it may turn out to be the case.

Also, this isn't just about Shanks.  I think the same can more or less be said about Dragon.


----------



## jNdee~ (Dec 10, 2014)

Trance losing his shit


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2014)

Gohara is low key the best troll in the OL/OPBD. Step aside Extra.


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Gohara is low key the best troll in the OL/OPBD. Step aside Extra.



The problem is that he is not a troll.


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ barreltheif.
> 
> You're not really explaining how it's not a title.  You're just saying that Oda wrote him to be called the World's Strongest Man, which doesn't suggest that it's not a title.  Plus, and again, Oda also wrote Moriah to be said to be on par with Kaidou.  So if we're going to exclude important details and circumstances, then we should also consider that to be a fact.  Also, it's not uncommon for writers to work in other characters being on par with or more powerful than characters who have been called the strongest.  So while I don't mind agreeing that there is solid evidence for Whitebeard being more powerful, it's still not a fact and there's reason to doubt that it may turn out to be the case.
> 
> Also, this isn't just about Shanks.  I think the same can more or less be said about Dragon.



Moriah fought with Kaido in the *PAST* and he got wrecked and humiliated.Also Kaido probably wasn't a Yonko back then.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Dec 10, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Moriah fought with Kaido in the *PAST* and he got wrecked and humiliated.Also Kaido probably wasn't a Yonko back then.



And it was also stated that they were never on par with each other, just that Moria faced him. 

cnet
Pirates: Do you think somebody could've defeated Moria...............?!!
Captain: Don't be ridiculous!! // They say that Moria even faced up to "Kaidou", of the Yonkou - that's just how powerful he is...

once again Gohara is misunderstanding this manga greatly. 


He should stick to just reading Bleach.


----------



## Magician (Dec 10, 2014)

Willing to bet Moriah/Kaido encounter was similar to Crocodile/Whitebeard encounter.

In that Moriah thought he was the shit and got a rude ass awakening.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 10, 2014)

Furinji Saiga said:


> And it was also stated that they were never on par with each other, just that Moria faced him.
> 
> cnet
> Pirates: Do you think somebody could've defeated Moria...............?!!
> ...



I'm afraid you spoke too soon.  In the official translation, it says that he was tough enough to fight toe to toe with Kaidou.

Even in the translation you post, they directly attribute how powerful Moriah is to being able to face Kaidou.  If he got owned by Kaidou, it wouldn't say anything about his level of power.

Throwing out insults doesn't change that Moriah was stated/implied to be on par with Kaidou.  Yet we look at details and circumstances to determine that he's not around as powerful as Kaidou.  There's no reason details and circumstances have to be overlooked for Whitebeard's hype.  Besides, I'm not saying that Whitebeard definitely isn't more powerful than Dragon and Shanks.  I'm just saying that it's possible that in his declining strength, he weakened to the point that he's weaker than them, but it's unlikely many people would know that and thus his title would stand.

I would also argue that it is because of my understanding of Manga that I see that as a possibility.  I read hundreds of fictional series, and it's not uncommon for an author to hype up a character as the strongest and then use some loophole to hype up another character as being the strongest when the previous one is dead.  Naruto is a perfect example of that.  Sarutobi was hyped up as the most powerful character in history, even being called the God Of Shinobi.  Yet, when he was defeated, Minato was later hyped up to be the most powerful- Kakashi going so far as to say Naruto is the only one who has a "chance" to surpass Minato.  Yet, when Hashirama became highlighted, he was called the most powerful by some characters and was also called the God Of Shinobi.

Me seeing Whitebeard not being the most powerful while old/sick isn't me lacking understanding of One Piece's story.  It's me being open minded to the possibility that Oda was just hyping him up until it's time to hype up Dragon and Shanks, who he's been saving for later in the series.  It's me looking at details and circumstances.  You don't have to agree, but regardless it's a possibility.


----------



## Tenma (Dec 10, 2014)

There's a difference between a character statement by likely-uninformed people and captions written by the omniscient narrator per se. Character statements by folders are unreliable 90% of hone time. The people who thought the SHs were fucked against Moriah were clearly uninformed given Moriah was ultimately beaten, but there is absolutely no reason for the caption to be 'misinformed'.


----------



## Gohara (Dec 10, 2014)

My point here is that Oda wrote those characters to say that just like he wrote Whitebeard to be called the World's Strongest Man.  Yet, we look at details and circumstances to determine that Moriah isn't actually on par with Kaidou.

You say that there's no reason for Whitebeard being the World's Strongest Man to turn out to be false, but:

1. I'm not necessarily saying that it would be false in that sense in that scenario.  Whitebeard gained that title in his prime because he likely was the most powerful character at the time.  I don't think that title would guaranteed to be taken away just because of him being old/sick, since that would require verification and would be nitpicking to take away a title he earned due to him being old/sick.

2. I respectfully disagree that there's no reason for that to be the case.  It would allow Oda to hype up Whitebeard for that Arc, while still allowing him to hype Dragon and Shanks.

Is there better reason to believe that Dragon and Shanks are more powerful than old/sick Whitebeard than that old/sick Whitebeard is more powerful than Dragon and Shanks?  That's a debatable point, and I think a good case can be made either way.  However, there's certainly good reason to believe that Dragon and Shanks *can* turn out to be more powerful than old/sick Whitebeard.  There's nothing standing in Oda's way from writing that to be the case, and things like that certainly have precedence in fiction.  Leaning towards Whitebeard makes sense, because based solely on current information, there's evidence that he is the most powerful.  Discounting Dragon and Shanks being more powerful than old/sick Whitebeard as a *possibility*, however, doesn't make much sense IMO.


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## Dellinger (Dec 11, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I'm afraid you spoke too soon.  In the official translation, it says that he was tough enough to fight toe to toe with Kaidou.
> 
> Even in the translation you post, they directly attribute how powerful Moriah is to being able to face Kaidou.  If he got owned by Kaidou, it wouldn't say anything about his level of power.
> 
> ...



Why do you even bring Kishi's bullcrap compared to what Oda is doing?


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## Gohara (Dec 11, 2014)

Any fictional series is open to the possibility that a common plot tool is going to be used.

You seem to think that such a plot tool is a bad thing.  It's not, if used right.  It can make sense for multiple characters to receive that same hype.


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