# KN4 Naruto vs. V2 Bee



## Itachi x Tenten (Feb 17, 2022)

*Distance:* 25m
*Knowledge:* None
*Restrictions:* Going further than the V2 cloak specified
*Location:* Open field​


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## Speedyamell (Feb 17, 2022)

Kn4 claps. Stronger biju/chakra, ridiculously superior feats of dc and raw power, and with tbb on top

Reactions: Agree 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 17, 2022)

Deva path could break KN6s bones

V2 Bee would fold KN4 in half

Hed blitz too, KN4 has no speed scaling to speak of

Arguments like “stronger biju” are fucking hilarious as they ignore that Bee is accessing way more Biju chakra, Bee is a perfect Jin and thus elevated beyond mere Biju level anyway, and Bees MUCH stronger Base

TBB is KN4s only argument and with Bees monumental speed advantage combined with intimate knowledge on what a TBB is, that shit is never tagging him.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## Charmed (Feb 17, 2022)

Bee is the perfect jin so he wins by a  mile.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Speedyamell (Feb 17, 2022)

Charmed said:


> Bee is the perfect jin so he wins by a  mile.


So v2 bee would beat mindless juubito because "he is the perfect jin" too then?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Charmed (Feb 17, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> So v2 bee would beat mindless juubito because "he is the perfect jin" too then?



We're talking about V2 Bee vs V2 Naruto here, I dunno why you'd bring Juubito to the equation.

Naruto can't control his powers, that's why he couldnt beat a weakened Orochimaru, for instance, but Bee has perfect control over his Jinchuuriki, so Bee would completely school KN4 Nardo.


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## Speedyamell (Feb 17, 2022)

Charmed said:


> We're talking about V2 Bee vs V2 Naruto here, I dunno why you'd bring Juubito to the equation.
> 
> Naruto can't control his powers, that's why he couldnt beat a weakened Orochimaru, for instance, but Bee has perfect control over his Jinchuuriki, so Bee would completely school KN4 Nardo.


Are you joking? I am using another jinchuriki to highlight why your take is ridiculous. 
Being a perfect jin makes you better than the concerned biju, It does not somehow apply to all biju/jin across the board.
Kn4 naruto has the better feats so clearly being a perfect jin is irrelevant to this conversation

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Quanta314159265 (Feb 17, 2022)

Bee wins. Tbb gets dodged as even base Bee's shunshin blitzed cm1 jugo. Bee should also be superior in physical strength seeing as his base Lariat overpowered V2 A4 who cracked Sasuke's ribcage susanoo. V2 Lariat ragdolls until Naruto gets too injured from the impact as well as his own corrosive chakra. If Bee could use Samehada he would low diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 17, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Deva path could break KN6s bones



When?


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## Charmed (Feb 17, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Are you joking? I am using another jinchuriki to highlight why your take is ridiculous.
> Being a perfect jin makes you better than the concerned biju, It does not somehow apply to all biju/jin across the board.
> Kn4 naruto has the better feats so clearly being a perfect jin is irrelevant to this conversation


I disagree, speedy.


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## ARGUS (Feb 17, 2022)

KN6 > V2 Bee > KN4

Bee takes it

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Shazam (Feb 17, 2022)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> *Distance:* 25m
> *Knowledge:* None
> *Restrictions:* Going further than the V2 cloak specified
> *Location:* Open field​



naruto has better feats, has more fire power, is Kurama whose much stronger than Gyuki. Fighting Kisame (someone leagues below the Sannin) doesn’t compare to fighting the actual Sannin.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Crofty (Feb 17, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Fighting Kisame (someone leagues below the Sannin) doesn’t compare to fighting the actual Sannin.


So is Kisame also leagues below Sick RDS Nerfed Oro & Base Jiraiya?


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## Charmed (Feb 17, 2022)

Shazam said:


> naruto has better feats, has more fire power, is Kurama whose much stronger than Gyuki. Fighting Kisame (someone leagues below the Sannin) doesn’t compare to fighting the actual Sannin.


You rly think Kisame is leagues below the Sannin, Shazam?


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## Bonly (Feb 17, 2022)

B has nothing to put down Naruto for good and he can't outlast Naruto so either Killer B eventually gets nuked by a Bijuudama after a long while of fighting or Killer B attacks Naruto while he's going for a Bijuudama and they both die as it explodes in their face


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Charmed said:


> You rly think Kisame is leagues below the Sannin, Shazam?



should I take Kisame’s word for it or fandom’s @Charmed

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Crofty said:


> So is Kisame also leagues below Sick RDS Nerfed Oro & Base Jiraiya?



it was base Jiraiya that Kisame was running from, it was base Jiraiya would Itachi saved him from. And there’s zero evidence Kisame knew Jiraiya had Sage Mode

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

I think V2 Bee should win.
People forget that the reason KN4 seemed way stronger is cause Kurama was in control throwing power around randomly.
It was stated jinchurikis are stronger cause they can control,focus,that power better.
Theres was no reason for Bee to blast shit all around him,especially cause he had allies there.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

It's not even clear KN4 is stronger than V2 (in spite of having the Bijuudama). This suggests KN4 may have more chakra, but more chakra =/ more stats if we're discussing different people. Naruto had more chakra than Kakashi in P1 and potentially more powerful jutsu but was laughably inferior in stats. 

Besides, V2 Bee can summon Gyuki's chakra skull to amp his striking force, which makes him resemble KN6 Naruto physically (and KN6 >> KN4).

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

Kurama >>>>gyuuki period, dont gimme that “more tails means stonger” crap

if they BOTH had 4 tails everyone would say naruto , 

which proves everyone thinks kurama ISNT more than 4 tails worth stronger than gyuuki WHEN he is

the gap in there chakra quality is bigger than the tail gap, kn4 naruto would cut samehada & kisame in 1 hit unlike bees weak ass

kn4>>>v2 bees weak ass

Reactions: Winner 1 | Kage 2 | Lewd 1


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## MaruUchiha (Feb 18, 2022)

Naruto obviously, but Killer B is getting wanked as usual

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Lewd 2


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## Azula (Feb 18, 2022)

KN4 slaps B.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> KN4 slaps B.



And Bee answers by killing KN4.


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

KN4 was tagged and rocked a bit by a sick Orochimaru who's nothing in comparison to Base Bee physically, let alone V2 Bee who has 2 tailed transformations stacked over his superior base form.

V2 Bee literally blitzes and caves KN4's outsides on the inside with a lariat.

Inb4 the "hur durr Kurama > Gyuki" arguments when Bee's base is significantly stronger than Naruto thus more than making up for the gap between Gyuki's and Kurama's chakra, and on top of V2 Bee's form being more advanced by virtue of the bones present over his cloak.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> KN4 was tagged and rocked a bit by a sick Orochimaru who's nothing in comparison to Base Bee physically



What do you mean? 

Agree with the rest though.


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> Agree with the rest though.


I've meant when Sick Oro punched him, thus I doubt he can react to V2 Bee.

Not saying Oro blitzed KN4, just meant that slower opponents than V2 Bee tagged him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I've meant when Sick Oro punched him, thus I doubt he can react to V2 Bee.
> 
> Not saying Oro blitzed KN4, just meant that slower opponents than V2 Bee tagged him.



Makes sense

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> KN4 slaps B.



easily


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> *Distance:* 25m
> *Knowledge:* None
> *Restrictions:* Going further than the V2 cloak specified
> *Location:* Open field​



naruto without a shred of doubt. You would have to play a lot of mental gymnastics to say otherwise


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Kurama >> Gyuki

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Azula (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> And Bee answers by killing KN4.


With what.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> With what.



Lariat.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Azula (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lariat.


 Barely killed Kisame with zero protection, Will it get past KN4 cloak?

Reactions: Winner 4 | Lewd 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Barely killed Kisame with zero protection



Kisame literally had Amped Samehada blocking it. Why you lying though?  

Also, Kisame is a durable son of a gun, not the worst anti-feat you could've found  



Azula said:


> Will it get past KN4 cloak?



Yes.


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Barely killed Kisame with zero protection, Will it get past KN4 cloak?



exactly, we have seen Kusanagai sword not get through and other weaker V2 Jin’s not get pierced by WA Raikiri. But he swears Lariat wins  

like I said, serious mental gymnastics going on

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> exactly, we have seen Kusanagai sword not get through and other weaker V2 Jin’s not get pierced by WA Raikiri. But he swears Lariat wins
> 
> like I said, serious mental gymnastics going on


Feats for Kusanagi and how it compares to a V2 lariat?

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Azula (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame is a durable son of a gun, not the worst anti-feat you could've found



No he isn't. He got pierced by an ordinary blade while Kusanagi couldn't scratch KN4 despite dragging him through an entire forest.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kisame literally had Amped Samehada blocking it. Why you lying though?



Not at all comparable to the protection of Kurama chakra.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Feats for Kusanagi and how it compares to a V2 lariat?



Kusanagi failed against V1 A4. 

Base Bee was able to damage V2 A4 slightly with a Lariat and V2 Bee >>> Base Bee.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kusanagi failed against V1 A4.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> No he isn't



He is, that's a fact.

He tanked Guy's Leaf Hurricane and KCM Naruto's super speed punch. 

Stay salty though 



Azula said:


> He got pierced by an ordinary blade



When? 

Do you mean Base Bee's blade? Base Bee, who is a physical powerhouse himself? 

Also, IIRC, it was Raiton enhanced.



Azula said:


> while Kusanagi couldn't scratch KN4 despite dragging him through an entire forest



So?

Kusanagi bounced off V1 A4's RNY, Base Bee overpowered V2 A4 and hurt him through his RNY.



Azula said:


> Not at all comparable to the protection of Kurama chakra.



Yeah, I think it's much stronger too. Not only is a Bijuu-amped sword going to be incredibly durable, making contact with the sword also sucks out your chakra, greatly weakening your attack. It stripped so much of Bee's chakra that he reverted to V1.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> KN4 was tagged and rocked a bit by a sick Orochimaru who's nothing in comparison to Base Bee physically, let alone V2 Bee who has 2 tailed transformations stacked over his superior base form.
> 
> V2 Bee literally blitzes and caves KN4's outsides on the inside with a lariat.
> 
> Inb4 the "hur durr Kurama > Gyuki" arguments when Bee's base is significantly stronger than Naruto thus more than making up for the gap between Gyuki's and Kurama's chakra, and on top of V2 Bee's form being more advanced by virtue of the bones present over his cloak.


What dude you telling me the gap between Base B and Base Naruto makes up the difference between Gyuuki and Kurama’s chakra. You’ve gone totally to the dark side now organe mask due to Sannin hate boner

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

The mental gymnastics on the KN4 camp. 

Acting like he is invulnerable to Bee's attacks based on a weaker attack than a V2 lariat failing to pierce his cloak. 

Being stuck like a leech on the Kurama >>> argument without accounting for the large gap between Naruto and Bee's physicals, ignoring the fact that Bee's tailed form is more advanced and has perfect control over his form unlike Naruto and how KN4 is literal blitz material for him seeing as Sick Oro is a snail next to V2 Bee by feats. 

If Base Bee's power is 90, while Base Naruto's is 30, and KN4 for Naruto offers a boost of 70, while V2 for Bee offers a boost of 50, then that still means Bee ends up being more powerful as his power output will be 140 in V2, whereas Naruto's will be 100 in KN4. Not a hard concept to grasp.

KN4's only hope is TBB, but with him getting permanently shit-blitzed by V2 Bee, the odds of landing it are going to be 0.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> What dude you telling me the gap between Base B and Base Naruto makes up the difference between Gyuuki and Kurama’s chakra. You’ve gone totally to the dark side now organe mask due to Sannin hate boner


What feats does KN4 have outside of TBB that are at least on par, if not better than V2 Bee?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


>



Sasuke, who is or should be aware of Orochimaru's Kusanagi, flat out specifies his Kusanagi is different in that it is unblockable (implying it's superior to Oro's version, the only other version we know and one Sasuke would definitely know). Keep in mind all this happened after Oro's fight with KN4, so by this point we've already seen Oro's version in action.

Yet a _much_ stronger Sasuke with Kusanagi had V1 A4 fully no-sell his bloodlusted sword strike. As in, the sword bounced off A4's back.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

KN4 by all logic and reasoning wins this

Hachibi best scaling is that it’s above 7-Tails by some unknown extent. Kyuubi was above 7,6,5,3,2 Tails combine. Kyuubi is so massively above Hachibi that there is no way Hachibi V2 offer anywhere near the power of Kyuubi’s; and the sad part is we directly saw this in terms of feats with KN4 chakra creating massive shockwaves with single swipes of its hand and it being able to use TBB. Also it’s shroud taking no damage from Ksunagi sword which Orochimaru felt had a chance to pierce something Yamata no Orochi couldn’t.

V2 B retains his intelligence so he will be able to dodge around a bit and potentially land some ineffectual blows on KN4; but he will not be able to do anything to it and simply get overwhelmed by the massive difference in raw power between the two.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Feb 18, 2022)

Crofty said:


> So is Kisame also leagues below Sick RDS Nerfed Oro & Base Jiraiya?


The entire point of hyping KN4 here is because Jiraiya got his ass beat  by KN4 . So if KN4 looks good Jiraiya looks good.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Leaf Hurricane said:


> The entire point of hyping KN4 here is because Jiraiya got his ass beat  by KN4 . So if KN4 looks good Jiraiya looks good.



It's strange. They could easily (and factually) argue that there's no proof Jiraiya actually fought KN4 or at least fought anywhere near full power. Naruto is like his grandson and beloved student, Jiraiya would be loath to even hurt him. Just say that.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> What feats does KN4 have outside of TBB that are at least on par, if not better than V2 Bee?


First off there is no reason to ignore TBB as that’s a very clear indicator that KN4 is on a level beyond any other V2 Jin, as Hachibi doesn’t even think it’s possible for a Jin to have the power to conjure a TBB without BM.
——
But beyond that literally every single one of KN4’s Feats is massively above B’s.

B has zero durability feats from his shroud, while KN4 shroud took a legendary diamond cutting sword (whose AP Oro considers above Yamata) without any damage.

KN4 has insanely better chakra shroud feats being able to use crazy chakra claws and chakra doppelgängers

KN4 has crazy better raw chakra displays of creating massive shock waves and shit.
—-
What the fuck feats does V2 B even have outside Sannin hate boner Orange mask. He damaged Kisame through Samehada that has no real feats other then block Base B’s swords; and went out of its way to avoid V1 B’s sword
—-
Also none of this even addresses saying Base B makes up for the difference in Kurama chakra to Gyuuki. Do I really need to make a thread BM B vs Kurama (without even accounting for Naruto’s chakra).

Reactions: Winner 2 | Neutral 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Like, imagine unironically arguing KISAME of all people isn't durable (in a vain attempt to bring Killer Bee down) 

The guy who tanked Guy's Konoha Hurricane casually, the same one that wiped out Gaara's bloodlusted gourd sand attack?

The guy who tanked a KCM Naruto super speed punch and was healthy enough to make a run for it right afterwards? The same KCM Naruto who without super speed can fight off a Bijuu's biting force?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Feb 18, 2022)

Bee himself has an ass load of chakra and was reacting to Taka Sasuke in base. KN4 was being tagged by Orochimaru. 
Add his V2 where he has much more chakra to access and is actually in control of his body and power, he batista bombs the fuck out of KN4.

And KN4 is brainless anyway and you have to be subpar like Base Jiraiya to be folded by him .

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Kage 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kusanagi failed against V1 A4.


My man Sasuke’s Chokutō sword (though he refers to it as Kusanagi) isn’t the same sword or kind of sword that Orochimaru used on Naruto. Orochimaru’s Sword has feats of injuring the diamond durability staff of Enma.


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

@Aegon Targaryen  Orochimaru sword is also a variant of the Totuska Blade, it’s far superior to Sasuke’s basic sword


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> First off there is no reason to ignore TBB as that’s a very clear indicator that KN4 is on a level beyond any other V2 Jin, as Hachibi doesn’t even think it’s possible for a Jin to have the power to conjure a TBB without BM.
> ——
> But beyond that literally every single one of KN4’s Feats is massively above B’s.
> 
> ...



1. Being able to conjure a TBB doesn't necessarily translate to automatically better durability or physicals. For all we know that could be due to the fact that Kurama might have better chakra control than Gyuki, thus why he can conjure TBB in V2 form.

2. If you are scaling Gyuki above the other Bijuu, then by default V2 Bee's shroud should be more than durable enough to take a Raikiri without discernable damage, like those Jins from the war arc. And as we know, Raikiri is a more refined version than Chidori, which already outperformed Kusanagi against V1 A4, who is less durable than V2 Bee.

3. I agree on KN4 creating chakra massive shockwaves, but how exactly is that going to help him against someone who can arguably blitz him by feats? Even Sick Oro, and V2 Bee who's significantly faster than him would easily dodge his strikes while continually assaulting him with lariats. It doesn't even matter if you believe KN4 has greater physical strength as he is too slow to tag Bee.

4. Kisame is already very durable seeing as even a 30% clone of himself wasn't vaporized by Asakujaku which carried enough force to stop Saiken's attack, and he was amped a bit by some chakra from Gyuki and used Samehada to block a portion of the V2 lariat and his chest was still fucked up.

5. Kurama's chakra being superior to Gyuki is an overstatement, because again, there's a large gap between Bee and Naruto's base forms, V2 Bee's form being more advanced and more comparable to KN6 judging by the bones which form over his V2 cloak, and Bee being in control of his body and synchronizing perfectly with Gyuki too. Since there's a blitz gap between KN4's speed and V2 Bee's physical speed, then that means all of that Kurama's chakra hasn't made up for the gap between the 2 of them, which likely implies that V2 Bee's other stats like strength and durability are also higher than KN4's.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> My man Sasuke’s Chokutō sword (though he refers to it as Kusanagi) isn’t the same sword or kind of sword that Orochimaru used on Naruto. Orochimaru’s Sword has feats of injuring the diamond durability staff of Enma.





Shazam said:


> @Aegon Targaryen  Orochimaru sword is also a variant of the Totuska Blade, it’s far superior to Sasuke’s basic sword



Sasuke's sword harmed Juudara and forced V2 Jigen to use rods in order to block his slash.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> 1. Being able to conjure a TBB doesn't necessarily translate to automatically better durability or physicals. For all we know that could be due to the fact that Kurama might have better chakra control than Gyuki, thus why he can conjure TBB in V2 form.
> 
> 2. If you are scaling Gyuki above the other Bijuu, then by default V2 Bee's shroud should be more than durable enough to take a Raikiri without discernable damage, like those Jins from the war arc. And as we know, Raikiri is a more refined version than Chidori, which already outperformed Kusanagi against V1 A4, who is less durable than V2 Bee.
> 
> ...


1) The durability and physicals of V2 Jin’s come primarily from the power of their chakra. V2 B being unable to form a TBB means he lacks the chakra to do so in that form and as such is weaker in that form.

Arguing Chakra control is the issue is nonsensical because Hachibi clearly has the chakra control to use TBB and he do so with higher levels of chakra then he has in V2, as he uses it in BM (hell he even has the chakra control to rapid fire them).

2) Why is Sasuke’s Ksunagi =~ to Orochimaru’s legendary diamond cutting one? Where was the evidence for that exactly?

3) There is no proof Orochimaru was sick at the start of the fight against KN4, as he is surprised at the end of the fight that his body was starting to fail already; so unless you have proof he was effected this is health Oro. Now when we know Orochimaru was on his Death-Bed he was was able to react to CM1 Sasuke to the same extent that he was reacting to KN4; and we know CM1 Sasuke > Sasuke who fought B and reacted to V1 B in speed.

So basically we have:

Healthy Oro >> DB Oro =~ CM1 Sasuke > B Fight Sasuke who could react to V1 B.

Based on this it’s very possible that Healthy Oro could react to V2 B, as he scales way above someone who can react to V1 B. And as such I don’t see any grounds to conclude V2 B is massively faster then KN4, where he could dodge every hit from him, despite KN4 having far greater versatility and aoe then V2 B.

4) Saiken’s attack is just a cloud of acid; it has zero durability or ability to resist much opposing force. Kisame was damaged by Aoba’s Kunai after absorbing B’s chakra. I repeat Aoba’s Kunai. There is no way in hell piercing Kisame (who also had Samehada to shield him) is suppose to be some amazing feat of AP; that comes anywhere close to what KN4 displayed.
—-
You also failed to address the absolute absurdity of your original claim that the gap between Base-B and Base Naruto is greater then the gap between Gyuuki and Kurama; I’m not going to let you try to shift your way out of acknowledging that, that was pure Sannin hate boner speak

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Sasuke's sword harmed Juudara and forced V2 Jigen to use rods in order to block his slash.



thats adult Sasuke and Rinnegan Sasuke. You can’t compare them at all to what we’re talking about here


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Being able to conjure a TBB doesn't necessarily translate to automatically better durability or physicals. For all we know that could be due to the fact that Kurama might have better chakra control than Gyuki, thus why he can conjure TBB in V2 form.


Hachibi stated that for junchuriki its immposible to use TBB without BM.
In KN4 case it was not jinchuriki who was using it.
It was Kurama,cause he was in control,not Naruto.


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> First off there is no reason to ignore TBB as that’s a very clear indicator that KN4 is on a level beyond any other V2 Jin, as Hachibi doesn’t even think it’s possible for a Jin to have the power to conjure a TBB without BM.


Yes for a jin.
In KN4 case it was not jin,Naruto,who was in control.
It was Kurama who used TBB.


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Imagine the denial…

kurama >>> Gyuki

Tbbs >>> No Tbbs

better durability feats for Kurama
Better destructive feats for Kurama
Fights canonically superior characters (Sannin) than Gyuki (Kisame)

I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept for the anti Sannin pro master and pro Uchiha groups to handle

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Yes for a jin.
> In KN4 case it was not jin,Naruto,who was in control.
> It was Kurama who used TBB.


What Naruto is still a Jin even when Kurama is in control and Hachibi can also take control over B, even still they can’t use TBB in V2

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Azula (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> When?
> 
> Do you mean Base Bee's blade? Base Bee, who is a physical powerhouse himself?
> 
> Also, IIRC, it was Raiton enhanced.



It was an ordinary steel blade that had all the raiton chakra absorbed before it hit Kisame.



Orochimaru's feat with kusanagi far exceeds any physical strength feat by V2 B.



The most that Lariat will do to KN4 is tickle him.

V2 B gets defeated.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> What Naruto is still a Jin even when Kurama is in control and Hachibi can also take control over B, even still they can’t use TBB in V2


Yes but when they use term jin they are talking about shinobi.Naruto is a jin but it was not him who was using that TTB.
It wasnt him using the tehnique.
Nothing suggest that  Hachibi cant do a TTB if it takes control over V2.

Hachibi says "jin" cant use TTB unless in full BM.
We see KN4 using TBB but it wasnt a jin who used it,it was a biju.
Pretty straightforward.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Yes but when they use term jin they are talking about shinobi.Naruto is a jin but it was not him who was using that TTB.
> It wasnt him using the tehnique.
> Nothing suggest that  Hachibi cant do a TTB if it takes control over V2.
> 
> ...


Hachibi doesn’t say it’s impossible for Naruto or even a Jin, he just says it’s not possible without Bijuu transformation period. This clearly means even if Hachibi took control he couldn’t do it without Bijuu Mode. We also directly see in the WA B go BM to use TBB and then go back to V2 to push the TBB through the barrier; which further reinforces the idea that it can’t be done outside of BM.

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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) The durability and physicals of V2 Jin’s come primarily from the power of their chakra. V2 B being unable to form a TBB means he lacks the chakra to do so in that form and as such is weaker in that form.
> Arguing Chakra control is the issue is nonsensical because Hachibi clearly has the chakra control to use TBB and he do so with higher levels of chakra then he has in V2, as he uses it in BM (hell he even has the chakra control to rapid fire them).


It's not nonsensical seeing as forming a TBB from a smaller pool of available chakra in a V2 form is logically harder than forming one in a BM body where you get access to the entirety of the Bijuu's chakra pool.

Plus V2 Bee stats being above KN4's, to me that looks like a chakra control issue.


Turrin said:


> 2) Why is Sasuke’s Ksunagi =~ to Orochimaru’s legendary diamond cutting one? Where was the evidence for that exactly?


What are that diamond's feats to begin with?

Sasuke's Kusanagi cut through Juudara.


Turrin said:


> 3) There is no proof Orochimaru was sick at the start of the fight against KN4, as he is surprised at the end of the fight that his body was starting to fail already; so unless you have proof he was effected this is health Oro. Now when we know Orochimaru was on his Death-Bed he was was able to react to CM1 Sasuke to the same extent that he was reacting to KN4; and we know CM1 Sasuke > Sasuke who fought B and reacted to V1 B in speed.


So you are saying Oro got sick during his fight with KN4?

Did he get sick when he fought KN4, before, or after?

Orochimaru's body failing at the end doesn't mean his stats weren't impaired at the beginning of the fight, especially if he got sick way before he faced KN4.


Turrin said:


> So basically we have:
> 
> Healthy Oro >> DB Oro =~ CM1 Sasuke > B Fight Sasuke who could react to V1 B.


DB Oro is not relative to CM1 Sasuke seeing as he got his appendages physically blitzed despite boasting a massive size advantage, and also fighting Sasuke in an extremely confined space.

Just look at its size relative to the room they were fighting in:


Still fails to tag Sasuke and has the snakes cut off:



He even needs to push Sasuke into a corner:


Sasuke literally outmaneuvered, and physically blitzed Orochimaru in a room where Sasuke barely had any space to move.

You don't know how they'd fare in an open, neutral field.

And is there any evidence that the Orochimaru Sasuke confronted is weaker than the one KN4 faced? Because KN4 Orochimaru was in no condition to fight anymore, whereas the Oro that Sasuke fought could still use his Serpent Form.

Bee fight Sasuke only reacted to V1 Bee, not V2 Bee, who's much faster given how large the gap between V1 and V2 is by feats.


Turrin said:


> Based on this it’s very possible that Healthy Oro could react to V2 B, as he scales way above someone who can react to V1 B. And as such I don’t see any grounds to conclude V2 B is massively faster then KN4, where he could dodge every hit from him, despite KN4 having far greater versatility and aoe then V2 B.


There's no evidence that he scales above someone who can react to V1 Bee, you keep neglecting the massive size of the Serpent that still got physically blitzed by Sasuke in a very confined room.

But even if I agreed with your scaling, that means Orochimaru would probably at best react better against V1 Bee than Sasuke did, and V1 Bee is much slower than V2 Bee.


Turrin said:


> 4) Saiken’s attack is just a cloud of acid; it has zero durability or ability to resist much opposing force. Kisame was damaged by Aoba’s Kunai after absorbing B’s chakra. I repeat Aoba’s Kunai. There is no way in hell piercing Kisame (who also had Samehada to shield him) is suppose to be some amazing feat of AP; that comes anywhere close to what KN4 displayed.


It doesn't matter if Saiken's could of gas doesn't offer any resistance, I'm merely referencing the force of Asakujaku affecting BM Jin to the point of forcing it to stop its assault.

Kunais are slashing and piercing attacks so of course, it's going to pierce him.


Turrin said:


> —-
> You also failed to address the absolute absurdity of your original claim that the gap between Base-B and Base Naruto is greater then the gap between Gyuuki and Kurama; I’m not going to let you try to shift your way out of acknowledging that, that was pure Sannin hate boner speak


Based on exactly is the gap between Gyuki and Kurama larger than the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee, to begin with?

Base Bee was literally kicking a Kage-level team's asses while fooling around and can overpower V2 A4 in a lariat clash, which I'm pretty sure packs massively more force and speed than Oro's punch which tagged KN4. What has Base Naruto done, physically at least to argue the hap isn't that big?

By extension, even KCM 1 Naruto was pressured by V1 A4 already and was sent back by his punches, called him fast, and said his punches could kill someone.




Here's Base Bee overpowering a faster and more powerful V2 A4's lariat:



If Base Bee physically competes with, if not even outperforms KCM 1 Naruto, who also uses Kurama's chakra, and is vastly superior form than KN4, then why is it impossible for V2 Bee to be way above KN4 who's inferior to KCM 1 Naruto?

The gap between Base Bee and Base Naruto is very sizeable if Base Bee physically outperforms Kurama chakra amped versions of Naruto, and the level of Kurama chakra KN4 has access to isn't making up for that gap, especially when there's already a large gap in speed between KN4 and V2 Bee, to begin with, and since all stats are amped proportionally, that means V2 Bee's strength and durability are also potentially greater than KN4's.

This already shows that the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee is likely greater than the one between Kurama and Gyuki.

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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> thats adult Sasuke and Rinnegan Sasuke. You can’t compare them at all to what we’re talking about here


Pretty sure Hagoromo buffed Sasuke, not his sword.

Concession accepted.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> It was an ordinary steel blade that had all the raiton chakra absorbed before it hit Kisame.



But still a blade wielded by Killer Bee, a man that can grapple with the Raikage, manhandle Juugo, and block Suigetsu unarmed.



Azula said:


> Orochimaru's feat with kusanagi far exceeds any physical strength feat by V2 B.



Proof?  

Give me some scaling.



Azula said:


> The most that Lariat will do to KN4 is tickle him



Nah, it rips him limb from limb.



Azula said:


> V2 B gets defeated



After KN4 gets desperate and goes KN6, maybe


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Hachibi doesn’t say it’s impossible for Naruto or even a Jin, he just says it’s not possible without Bijuu transformation period. This clearly means even if Hachibi took control he couldn’t do it without Bijuu Mode. We also directly see in the WA B go BM to use TBB and then go back to V2 to push the TBB through the barrier; which further reinforces the idea that it can’t be done outside of BM.


No he says for a jin,a person,its immposible but we see a biju use it.
Im sorry its pretty clear so im gonna go with the manga on this.

Obviously a TBB in BM will be stronger than the one in V2.
Bee proly felt he needs a stronger TBB in orded to break that barrier or he just wanted to be sure.
Thats all there is to it.


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## Azula (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> But still a blade wielded by Killer Bee, a man that can grapple with the Raikage, manhandle Juugo, and block Suigetsu unarmed.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Proof?
> 
> Give me some scaling.



 Copium overdose

Give me some scaling said Aegon after seeing Orochimaru drag KN4 through an entire forest.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Copium overdose



Yes, yes, we know you're high on the stuff - no need to tell us.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Pretty sure Hagoromo buffed Sasuke, not his sword.
> 
> Concession accepted.



To be fair, the sword had to be amped by Sasuke on some level, as otherwise we would be forced to conclude that V1 A4 is more durable than Juudara lol. We know weapons can be amped by chakra since P1 IIRC when Sasuke uses chakra to control shuriken.

Think of it like Trunks cutting Frieza to bits with a normal sword.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Give me some scaling said Aegon after seeing Orochimaru drag KN4 through an entire forest.



Nice edit  

Attack potency =/ destructive capacity or environmental damage.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> It's not nonsensical seeing as forming a TBB from a smaller pool of available chakra in a V2 form is logically harder than forming one in a BM body where you get access to the entirety of the Bijuu's chakra pool.
> 
> Plus V2 Bee stats being above KN4's, to me that looks like a chakra control issue.
> 
> ...


1) Why would it be harder to compress and control a smaller amount of chakra into a ball; then it is to control a larger amount? That’s like saying it’s easier for Naruto to control a Chou Oddoma Rasengan then a normal Rasengan. 

2) When Kishi says something is Diamond he believes it’s > A3 durability which can tank a Rasenshuriken; given that he only calls that Steel level durability.

And please tell me you didn’t just compare God Tier Sasuke to FKS in striking force. Please tell me the hate boner hasn’t reached that level OM.

3) Orochimaru was surprised his body was failing after using the last oral rebirth; if he was suffering effects of body failure before this he wouldn’t be surprised. This means he likely was not suffering these effects until that final oral rebirth 

4) OM we have been through this, and you still offered nothing to really contest that Orochimaru reacted to CM1 Sasuke and evaded his attack right here:

Which is the same exact type of shit he was doing against KN attacks. So until you address this I have no obligation to even address the rest of what you said here (although I already have in other discussions we have had and explained to you why this still shows relativity).
—-
And also WTF Om, the one that fought Kn4 we can’t even say had any body failure until the end of the fight while the one who fought Sasuke was in his bed dying. I can’t even believe yours asking me to prove the Orochimaru who fought Sasuke was worse off 

5) Proof V1 B is much slower then V2 

6) I’m not going to even entertain this Bijuu thing because it’s superfluous to the fact that we saw Aoba’s Kunai pierce Kisame so there is no way that Kisame piercing damage resistance is high in any way.

7) You do realize again that V2 Forms get their power from chakra right; and that Naruto has better chakra feats then Base B if anything right? So Naruto would be adding more to a V2 Form power wise then Base B, if anything.
—-
Now putting aside the logical aspect of how these Jin would actually add power to this form. Killer B in Base is a stronger fighter then BoS Naruto for sure. But that gap isn’t anywhere as large as you believe it to be. Naruto felt he could take a stronger Sasuke then the one Base-B faced after wind training, so gaining one a new powerful (incomplete) Jutsu plus better clone skills was already enough to put Base Naruto in a similar level as Base-B and Sasuke (as we can expect a Healthy 3T Sasuke to at least be Base B level or above that).

As opposed to with Kurama where he can chakra flex away 5 Bijuu at the same time with ease including 7-Tails which should at least be close to Hachibi in strength. 
—-
We have already discussed the KCM1 and A4 stuff over discord; B was not performing the same as their top speed or power as they were not using Flicker until the very end of the fight. Like wise when B and Naruto fight the Jin he isn’t using flicker and is nearly out of KCM chakra. So the idea that Base-B scales anywhere near KCM1 Naruto at full power is just wrong, but feel free to make a thread about KCM1 Naruto versus Base B, if you want to have a separate debate on this.

I also do not believe KCM1 is necessarily above KN4 in raw power. KCM1 is superior assuming FRS can bust the shroud (which I’m really not sure is true) but that is due to versatility and skill not Raw Power as KCM1 still can’t use a TBB like KN4 can.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gulash said:


> No he says for a jin,a person,its immposible but we see a biju use it.
> Im sorry its pretty clear so im gonna go with the manga on this.
> 
> Obviously a TBB in BM will be stronger than the one in V2.
> ...


No he doesn’t. He says it’s impossible without  Bijuu transformation period:


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> To be fair, the sword had to be amped by Sasuke on some level, as otherwise we would be forced to conclude that V1 A4 is more durable than Juudara lol. We know weapons can be amped by chakra since P1 IIRC when Sasuke uses chakra to control shuriken.
> 
> Think of it like Trunks cutting Frieza to bits with a normal sword.



Agreed on that, though my concern is also about the sword's overall toughness. 

Because no matter how sharp it is, it also has to be durable enough to resist the force that the said sword receives when it collides with the target in question. And there is also the amount of force the sword is swung with.

I can have the sharpest sword, if I can't generate sufficient force, then I won't even be able to cut a leaf, let alone a massively durable object.

So the way I see it, Orochimaru's Kusanagi sword likely exceeds or is comparable to Enma in durability in order to cut through him, but appropriate amount of force is still needed to inflict the cut.

In KN4's case, we don't know if Orochimaru was able to generate enough force to cut through KN4 as his body was failing, and this assuming the sword can even cut through KN4. 

We don't know how durable Enma is for certain beyond a word that the DB uses to hype him up and if he is more durable than a V2 Jin, that's my concern.

For all we know, if he is less durable than a V2 Jin, that means Raikiri would also pierce his body, therefore placing V2 Bee above him and invalidating the Kusanagi sword argument used for KN4.

Obviously, the chakra Sasuke uses to amp his sword will increase its durability and cutting force, but if the force he uses to swing it isn't enough it's not going to harm A4.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Agreed on that, though my concern is also about the sword's overall toughness.
> 
> Because no matter how sharp it is, it also has to be durable enough to resist the force that the said sword receives when it collides with the target in question. And there is also the amount of force the sword is swung with.
> 
> ...



Fair points.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No he doesn’t. He says it’s impossible without  Bijuu transformation period:


Ye a few pages earlier,same chapter 519,Hachibi says a host(jin) can only use it in BM.
Then he says to Naruto,who is a host,that he can only use it BM.
Like i said i will go with the manga.

I mean think about it.
He says a host can only use it BM.
Yet we see "Naruto" use it in KN4.But thats cause host was not using TBB,Kurama was.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Ye a few pages earlier,same chapter 519,Hachibi says a host(jin) can only use it in BM.
> Then he says to Naruto,who is a host,that he can only use it BM.
> Like i said i will go with the manga.
> 
> ...


If he says a Host can only use it in BM and then says it’s impossible to use it outside BM. That means it’s not possible to use it outside BM for him or a host. It means both.

There is no reason anyway why a host would be unable to use TBB in V2 and Hachibi could.


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> he says a Host can only use it in BM and then says it’s impossible to use it outside BM. That means it’s not possible to use it outside BM for him or a host. It means both.


He talking to Naruto when he say its impossible.
He is directing that sentence to him.Naruto is a host.





Turrin said:


> There is no reason anyway why a host would be unable to use TBB in V2 and Hachibi could.


There is,cause thats a tehnique tied to bijus.
Theyre just better with it than anybody else and can perform it even with less power.
And also its because kishi says so in his own manga.


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) Why would it be harder to compress and control a smaller amount of chakra into a ball; then it is to control a larger amount? That’s like saying it’s easier for Naruto to control a Chou Oddoma Rasengan then a normal Rasengan.


That's a flawed comparison seeing as a Rasengan is significantly easier than a TBB to conjure.

If KN4 can manifest TBBs, then either:

1. He has access to more chakra than Killer Bee has in V2.

2. Kurama has better chakra control than the other Bijuu in a V2 form, and he is the one conjuring the TBB since he completely took over Naruto at that point.

The strength of chakra is meaningless if he doesn't have enough chakra or lacks the control of it in order to manifest the said TBB.

But we see that KN4 can and does manifest TBB, so chakra quantity isn't the issue for him. So, if he has so much more chakra than V2 Bee, why aren't his stats above Bee's assuming that the gap between their base forms isn't significant?

Why isn't KN4 faster, shouldn't that extra chakra quantity make up for the gap in stats?

Why is Deva seen outrunning KN6, who's way faster than KN4? Deva Path I repeat, who's slower than V2 Bee.

This tells me that again, whatever amount of chakra Naruto has access to in his KN4 form, hell, even KN6 form, isn't making up for the gap in stats between his and Bee's base.

So either the gap between Base Bee and Base Naruto is astronomical because KN4 levels of Kurama chakra, which are also more potent than Bee's aren't canceling the gap between their bases, or their bases aren't astronomically far apart, but the gap is still sizeable nonetheless, and V2 Bee has access to more of Gyuki's chakra which makes more sense seeing as his V2 form has bones sprouting out meaning it's a higher stage than KN4, and also has massively better physicals to the point of a blitz gap by feats, in spite of KN4 having access to more potent chakra.

And if Bee has access to at least a comparable amount of chakra KN4 uses, or potentially even above, at least based on him displaying better speed than KN6, then he has more than enough to conjure a TBB.

So I really can't see how chakra control isn't the issue unless their base forms are tiers apart.


Turrin said:


> 2) When Kishi says something is Diamond he believes it’s > A3 durability which can tank a Rasenshuriken; given that he only calls that Steel level durability.


Kishi also calls Base Guy's body steel-like, so by that logic he should also be able to tank a KCM FRS.

Kishi calling Enma's durability comparable to Diamond doesn't mean his durability exceeds A3 unless you also believe Guy's body is comparable to A3 if we play this word game that Kishi does to hype his characters.

If you think Enma is more durable than A3 despite having 0 feats to indicate that, and based on a stance that is provably wrong by my above example, then you'd also have to scale Enma to tanking Gyuki's TBBs too potentially, as it's implied that Gyuki threw everything at A3.

And if you now scale KN4 above Enma because he didn't get cut by the sword that cut Enma, you'd also have to believe KN4 tanks KCM FRSs, and Gyuki's TBB too, which is downright impossible seeing as even 50% Kurama who's tiers above KN4 was damaged and knocked flat on his ass by an SM FRS, that's way weaker than the KCM FRS Naruto used against A3, let alone a Gyuki TBB.



That's not even getting into the fact that A3's RCM cloak was at a massive disadvantage against Naruto's stronger KCM FRS since Fuuton counters Raiton.

Your scaling literally requires you to rank KN4 above 50% Kurama in durability.


Turrin said:


> And please tell me you didn’t just compare God Tier Sasuke to FKS in striking force. Please tell me the hate boner hasn’t reached that level OM.


I'm merely referencing Sasuke's sword being durable enough to withstand Juudara's body and bypass its tissue, a feat greater than cutting through Enma.


Turrin said:


> 3) Orochimaru was surprised his body was failing after using the last oral rebirth; if he was suffering effects of body failure before this he wouldn’t be surprised. This means he likely was not suffering these effects until that final oral rebirth


Orochimaru being surprised that his body was failing does not mean his state wasn't impaired prior to that, it could mean that his illness was accentuated because he exerted himself to a massive degree against KN4.

If he felt his body rejecting him due to that extortion, then it's clear to me he was sick before, and there's no way he was operating at 100% against KN4, even before his body failed him.


Turrin said:


> 4) OM we have been through this, and you still offered nothing to really contest that Orochimaru reacted to CM1 Sasuke and evaded his attack right here:


He literally got tagged by his Chidori Eiso and just moved a bit to Oral Rebirth spit himself out, meaning that he couldn't have dodged his next attack without doing so.

Your example only proves that his Oral Rebirth launching speed >> CM1 Sasuke's attack, the rest of his movements were neg-diffed on the speed department.

So Oral Rebirth could indeed be scaled relative to CM 1 Sasuke.

And again, this doesn't show us how he would handle himself against V2 Bee who's away above V1 Bee unless you prove that the gap between his healthy and sick self is just as large as the gap between V1 and V2 Bee, but seeing as he got physically blitzed mid-air by the vastly slower KN4 in a ''healthier state'', Imma go with no.


Turrin said:


> Which is the same exact type of shit he was doing against KN attacks. So until you address this I have no obligation to even address the rest of what you said here (although I already have in other discussions we have had and explained to you why this still shows relativity).
> —-
> And also WTF Om, the one that fought Kn4 we can’t even say had any body failure until the end of the fight while the one who fought Sasuke was in his bed dying. I can’t even believe yours asking me to prove the Orochimaru who fought Sasuke was worse off


And how does that prove that he wasn't in a better condition compared to when his body failed him after he was done fighting KN4 seeing that against KN4 he couldn't fight anymore, whereas against Sasuke he still had enough in him for the fastest Oral Rebirth of his life and the Serpent?

I'm not saying he was just as fast as he was when he fought KN4, but I really doubt he was in the exact same collapsed state.


Turrin said:


> 5) Proof V1 B is much slower then V2


Just look at the gap between V1 and V2.

3T Sasuke easily finessed V1 A4 with a Chidori to the chest, but almost got perception blitzed by V2 A4 and had to rely on his mental reactions.

Likewise, Kisame easily reacted to V1 Bee and tagged him with Samehada, but was completely overwhelmed by his V2 lariat, and in spite of *receiving 2 V1 sized portions of chakra from Bee prior as he was reverted back to the base following the first charge, and absorbed another portion after the 2nd charge:*




And the same Kisame who's amped by a complete V1 Gyuki chakra amount, and another sizeable portion of the same amount, was completely overwhelmed and near-physically blitzed by V2 Bee:


Look at how his ribcage ended up:


If the gap isn't anything short of massive, then I don't know what to tell you...

V2 Bee can literally physically blitz and overpower someone who's amped by a minimum of a V1 Gyuki level amount of chakra, and explode that person's chest.

And even a weakened and anorexic Kisame got up immediately after he got hit by KCM 1 Naruto's Yellow Flash flicker punch.


Turrin said:


> 6) I’m not going to even entertain this Bijuu thing because it’s superfluous to the fact that we saw Aoba’s Kunai pierce Kisame so there is no way that Kisame piercing damage resistance is high in any way.


Everything in Kishi's manga is shit against piercing damage, look no further than Gyuki's tentacles ending up negged by shuriken and by Chidori Eiso, but not getting vaporized by his own TBB explosion.

The fact of the matter is, surviving and getting up in a weakened state after ending up hit by KCM 1 Naruto's max flicker punch is nothing short of high durability feat.


Turrin said:


> 7) You do realize again that V2 Forms get their power from chakra right; and that Naruto has better chakra feats then Base B if anything right? So Naruto would be adding more to a V2 Form power wise then Base B, if anything.


Yet V2 Bee still has better physicals.


Turrin said:


> —-
> Now putting aside the logical aspect of how these Jin would actually add power to this form. Killer B in Base is a stronger fighter then BoS Naruto for sure. But that gap isn’t anywhere as large as you believe it to be. Naruto felt he could take a stronger Sasuke then the one Base-B faced after wind training, so gaining one a new powerful (incomplete) Jutsu plus better clone skills was already enough to put Base Naruto in a similar level as Base-B and Sasuke (as we can expect a Healthy 3T Sasuke to at least be Base B level or above that).


Again, if you think that the gap between Naruto's and Bee's base isn't high, then that means V2 Bee has access to more chakra than Naruto does in KN4, because he displayed significantly better physicals, at least in the speed department.

And if V2 Bee has more chakra than KN4, but can't conjure TBB in that state, then it's more likely that Gyuki's chakra control isn't good enough to conjure TBBs in V2.


Turrin said:


> As opposed to with Kurama where he can chakra flex away 5 Bijuu at the same time with ease including 7-Tails which should at least be close to Hachibi in strength.


That's not a KN4 feat, it's literally a feat of KCM 2 Naruto's who has access to the entire 50% of Kurama's reserves, so of course, he is going to be stronger than Bee at that point.


Turrin said:


> —-
> We have already discussed the KCM1 and A4 stuff over discord; B was not performing the same as their top speed or power as they were not using Flicker until the very end of the fight. Like wise when B and Naruto fight the Jin he isn’t using flicker and is nearly out of KCM chakra. So the idea that Base-B scales anywhere near KCM1 Naruto at full power is just wrong, but feel free to make a thread about KCM1 Naruto versus Base B, if you want to have a separate debate on this.


Naruto literally has access to a KCM cloak, in other words, Kurama's chakra, so his stats should be way above his base, irrespective of whether he uses flicker or not.

And Base Bee outperforms that KCM 1 Naruto against A4, until Naruto uses his KCM flicker.

So if Base Bee has superior physical strength compared to KCM1 Naruto based on their interactions with A4, then I don't see why V2 Bee would be even stronger than KN4.


Turrin said:


> I also do not believe KCM1 is necessarily above KN4 in raw power. KCM1 is superior assuming FRS can bust the shroud (which I’m really not sure is true) but that is due to versatility and skill not Raw Power as KCM1 still can’t use a TBB like KN4 can.


I legitimately can't see how KN4 is tanking a KCM 1 FRS when even a weaker SM Naruto's FRS did what it did to 50% Kurama.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Symmetry (Feb 18, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not even clear KN4 is stronger than V2 (in spite of having the Bijuudama). This suggests KN4 may have more chakra, but more chakra =/ more stats if we're discussing different people. Naruto had more chakra than Kakashi in P1 and potentially more powerful jutsu but was laughably inferior in stats.
> 
> Besides, V2 Bee can summon Gyuki's chakra skull to amp his striking force, which makes him resemble KN6 Naruto physically (and KN6 >> KN4).


Bee can summon Gyuki’s skull, Kn4 can shoot a TBB 

I know which one I’d choose

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Symmetry (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> He literally got tagged by his Chidori Eiso


this

This is so weird

You do realize Orochimaru’s couldn’t stand, right? Like he physically is unable to dodge that eiso.

The fact is he was surprise attacked on his bed in his private quarters and reacted cleanly with his arms whilst on his deathbed and unable to move out of the way

That’s a feat for Orochiamru lmao



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Your example only proves that his Oral Rebirth launching speed >> CM1 Sasuke's attack


This would also prove Orochimaru’s reactions on his deathbed > CM1 Sasuke’s cqc speed

Not just oral rebirth, but any oral move, like tongue attacks or kusunagi, which would have killed Sasuke here if he didn’t want his body

Legit the only time the “wanted body excuse” actually applies



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> but seeing as he got physically blitzed mid-air by the vastly slower KN4 in a ''healthier state'', Imma go with no.


Kn4 sprouted a whole other body to attack Orochimaru, there was likely a surprise factor

Orochimaru was also in the air and couldn’t move. What could he have done?

thirdly very likely he just let himself take the attack to regen as he shows no surprise at all and did this legit 2 chapters ago, he’s shown smiling after being clawed so he didn’t really care and likely didn’t care to dodge

Hard to argue Kn4 can blitz him when Orochimaru just finished tagging and dodging him


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> this
> 
> This is so weird
> 
> ...


Why does he have to stand when he can just move his torso to the side?


Orochimaru op said:


> This would also prove Orochimaru’s reactions on his deathbed > CM1 Sasuke’s cqc speed
> 
> Not just oral rebirth, but any oral move, like tongue attacks or kusunagi, which would have killed Sasuke here if he didn’t want his body
> 
> Legit the only time the “wanted body excuse” actually applies


I never argued against his mental reactions not being able to handle CM 1 Sasuke's speed.

Prove Orochimaru was fast enough to tag Sasuke if you are saying he could have killed him.


Orochimaru op said:


> Kn4 sprouted a whole other body to attack Orochimaru, there was likely a surprise factor
> 
> Orochimaru was also in the air and couldn’t move. What could he have done?


Oral Rebirth or sprout Kusanagi?


Orochimaru op said:


> thirdly very likely he just let himself take the attack to regen as he shows no surprise at all and did this legit 2 chapters ago, he’s shown smiling after being clawed so he didn’t really care and likely didn’t care to dodge


Smiling after ending up clawed in half doesn't mean he wanted to get hit on purpose.


Orochimaru op said:


> Hard to argue Kn4 can blitz him when Orochimaru just finished tagging and dodging him


Being in very close proximity to someone makes it infinitely harder to dodge that person's attacks.


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## Charmed (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> should I take Kisame’s word for it or fandom’s @Charmed


What where his words exactly?


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Charmed said:


> What where his words exactly?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Charmed (Feb 18, 2022)

Thank you Shazam, did he say anything else?


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2022)

Bee should win

In Base he beat the 8 tails bijuu who has a real bijuudama to gain his respect and cooperation as a Jinchuriki

KN4 is a joke battle in comparison and giving Bee a V2 Mode on top of it is a huge mistake by OP

Normally Bee just outlasts KN4 by flickering around him as he easily did Taka and blocking whatever he can’t avoid with tentacles until the mode kills Naruto or runs out, with V2 he straight up beats Naruto to death

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Charmed said:


> Thank you Shazam, did he say anything else?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> In Base he beat the 8 tails bijuu who has a real bijuudama to gain his respect and cooperation as a Jinchuriki


what chapter is this?


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> what chapter is this?


The fight didn’t occur on panel.

Bee tells Naruto he fought his bijuu too before Naruto undergoes his training to control 9 tails


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## Charmed (Feb 18, 2022)

Well just noticed Itachi said that even if he had more back up, th fight between him and Jman would still end in a draw. You can't rly believe that right? I mean Itachi was a spy, whywould he want to kill Jman or Naruto?

Anyway, as for Kisame:

First he says he's not so sure if he can beat Jiraiya; this alone doesn't mean he's leagues weaker, right?
Then he states that Jman is in another league, and he clearly explains why in the following panel in which Kisame is talking about Jiraiya's Fame/Rep; you can tell bcuz Kisame is comparing titles, not power, since he has never seen Jiraiya in battle before.
Kisame says that "being a member of the Uchiha Clan" which is extinct btw, on itself can't compare with Jiraiya's Sannin title, which only 3 people in the world have. The Sannin title was earned during a war in which the Sannin became famous; a war they won for Konoha and their country iirc. Being just another member of the Uchiha clan can't rival that rep.
Now compare Kisame's title; he's a member of the 7SoTM, again, that group can't be compared with the Sannin rep- wise, bcuz how do you earn that title? By mastering one of those blades, not by winning a war, nor facing legendary shinobi like Hanzo and surviving.

It's clear that Kisame was just comparing rep not strength, he has no idea how strong Jman is and afterall, the Sannin are like "A" list celebrities in the shinobi world.

Now, if you take feats into account, then you can clearly see Kisame and Itachi are not that far from a Sannin's level; even the DB gives them good stats too, and some great hype as well.


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## Symmetry (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Why does he have to stand when he can just move his torso to the side?


Considerable movement for someone bed ridden 

Dude was huffing and puffing just by existing 


it is regardless a reaction feat



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Prove Orochimaru was fast enough to tag Sasuke if you are saying he could have killed him


Sasuke doesn't react to the oral rebirth proc

Kusunagi is the same thing but a sword instead of a snake 

No reason to assume Sasuke could have dodged that in cqc when he didn't even register the oral rberith until Orochimaru was cleanly behind him

Also Sasuke was paralyzed by the end of the battle soooooooo




ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Oral Rebirth


Why do that when he can take the hit and use snake stitching which has never been stated to use a lot of chakra, whilst oral rebirth has 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Being in very close proximity to someone makes it infinitely harder to dodge that person's attacks.


Fair enough, but you should add sprouting a whole new body adds an immense surprise factor


Kabuto oral rebirth blitzed Edo Itachi with the surprise factor, despite them showing partiy moments ago 

Tsunade landed a hit on Madara before he could react due to a surprise factor of her regen


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> The fight didn’t occur on panel.
> 
> Bee tells Naruto he fought his bijuu too before Naruto undergoes his training to control 9 tails



so Base Bee =~ Half Injured 3T Taka Sasuke =~ Gyuki?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Charmed said:


> Well just noticed Itachi said that even if he had more back up, th fight between him and Jman would still end in a draw. You can't rly believe that right? I mean Itachi was a spy, whywould he want to kill Jman or Naruto?
> 
> Anyway, as for Kisame:
> 
> ...



Been through this 100 times before. Yes, Kisame is referring to Jiraiya’s rep, the same same rep he lives up too according to canon.



For consistency sake (besides the fact that this is undeniable canon), I hope you remember that I also support Sasori being superior to Deidara mainly due to a statement as well.


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## Charmed (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Been through this 100 times before. Yes, Kisame is referring to Jiraiya’s rep, the same same rep he lives up too according to canon.
> 
> 
> 
> For consistency sake (besides the fact that this is undeniable canon), I hope you remember that I also support Sasori being superior to Deidara mainly due to a statement as well.


But Sasori isnt stronger than Deidara just bcuz of a statement tho. There're a lot of things to be taken into account.


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Considerable movement for someone bed ridden
> 
> Dude was huffing and puffing just by existing
> 
> ...


Again, I never denied that he reacted to Sasuke.

My only contention is that he couldn't have cleanly dodged the Eiso outside of OR, as the manga shows us.

So going by that, the best you can argue is that DB Oro is low-end relative to CM1 Sasuke when he is faced with an attack that was launched from a good distance away and needs OR to evade point-blank attacks.


Orochimaru op said:


> Sasuke doesn't react to the oral rebirth proc
> 
> Kusunagi is the same thing but a sword instead of a snake
> 
> ...


There is no evidence Sasuke was mentally blitzed by the Oral Rebirth, in fact, he even displays an exclamation mark:


You have to take into account that Orochimaru still wanted to snatch his body as he prepares to do so moments later in the fight:


So explain to me this, if Orochimaru not only can physically blitz but also mentally blitz Sasuke like you are saying with OR, then why didn't he just launch himself into Sasuke when he used it on his bed and instead jumped out? 

If he could blitz him as you are implying, then it makes no sense for him to Oral Rebirth jump beside him instead of jumping into him at point-blank...


Orochimaru op said:


> Why do that when he can take the hit and use snake stitching which has never been stated to use a lot of chakra, whilst oral rebirth has


To dodge his attack, add a surprise factor as you've mentioned, and to position himself for a better attack. Snake stitching may potentially cost less chakra, but he remains vulnerable to follow-up attacks until his body stitches itself back.

He even used Oral Rebirth earlier on to evade an attack from KN4 shortly before he got bisected, implying that he wasn't planning on eating a direct hit.


Orochimaru op said:


> Fair enough, but you should add sprouting a whole new body adds an immense surprise factor
> 
> 
> Kabuto oral rebirth blitzed Edo Itachi with the surprise factor, despite them showing partiy moments ago


The Itachi example I agree with, but you have to take into consideration that Itachi thought Kabuto collapsed for good and let his guard down.

In fact, Kabuto played dead for that surprise attack.


Orochimaru op said:


> Tsunade landed a hit on Madara before he could react due to a surprise factor of her regen


The panel, if I may ask?


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> KN4 was tagged and rocked a bit by a sick Orochimaru who's nothing in comparison to Base Bee physically, let alone V2 Bee who has 2 tailed transformations stacked over his superior base form.
> 
> V2 Bee literally blitzes and caves KN4's outsides on the inside with a lariat.
> 
> Inb4 the "hur durr Kurama > Gyuki" arguments when Bee's base is significantly stronger than Naruto thus more than making up for the gap between Gyuki's and Kurama's chakra, and on top of V2 Bee's form being more advanced by virtue of the bones present over his cloak.


This last paragraph was just the wank i was hoping i would see from anyone, base bees physicals dont >>> base naruto more than kurama >>>gyuuki so take that scaling to the trash.

Kn4 naruto is the one whos slicing bees throat off after he willingly nosells his v2 lariat on his best day( which didnt even kill kisame behind samehada)

you have to be a bee wanker to even think bees base physicals makes up…for that gap what is you smoking lol

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I've meant when Sick Oro punched him, thus I doubt he can react to V2 Bee.
> 
> Not saying Oro blitzed KN4, just meant that slower opponents than V2 Bee tagged him.


You speak as if kn4 made an attempt to dodge , it just didnt care to try cause it wouldnt hurt him anyway, his body moved because hes not 5000 pounds , regardless that hit did not hurt him so he didnt try to dodge, you make it seem like his reaction speed is too slow & still got hit by oro , letting yourself be tagged vs being tagged while trying to dodge is two different things, you talk like door #2 happened to support bees case


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

Azula said:


> Barely killed Kisame with zero protection, Will it get past KN4 cloak?


What im sayinnn

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> What dude you telling me the gap between Base B and Base Naruto makes up the difference between Gyuuki and Kurama’s chakra. You’ve gone totally to the dark side now organe mask due to Sannin hate boner


Frrr tho this guy is a lost cause now with that base bee dick riding


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

The mental gymnastics on the KN4 camp. 


ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Acting like he is invulnerable to Bee's attacks based on a weaker attack than a V2 lariat failing to pierce his cloak.
> 
> Being stuck like a leech on the Kurama >>> argument without accounting for the large gap between Naruto and Bee's physicals, ignoring the fact that Bee's tailed form is more advanced and has perfect control over his form unlike Naruto and how KN4 is literal blitz material for him seeing as Sick Oro is a snail next to V2 Bee by feats.
> 
> ...


Naww man, your logic sucks , its no 70 / 50 respectively, kurama is stronger than 5 bijuu combined minimum with 50% , that translates to much larger figures gap than your 70 for naruto, and 50 for bee, naruto would be far above even 130 with his boost

either stop sucking bee & gyuukis dick or shut up , seriously this dick riding is embarrassing


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

sonworth21 said:


> This last paragraph was just the wank i was hoping i would see from anyone, base bees physicals dont >>> base naruto more than kurama >>>gyuuki so take that scaling to the trash.
> 
> Kn4 naruto is the one whos slicing bees throat off after he willingly nosells his v2 lariat on his best day( which didnt even kill kisame behind samehada)
> 
> you have to be a bee wanker to even think bees base physicals makes up…for that gap what is you smoking lol


How is the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee not bigger than the gap between 50% Kurama and Gyuki?

BoS Sasuke mentally blitzed Base Naruto, whereas Base Bee physically intercepted and overpowered V2 A4 who almost perception blitzed a faster and stronger version of Sasuke than the one that blitzed Base Naruto.

Show me 50% Kurama blitzing Gyuki like that, then we'll talk.


sonworth21 said:


> You speak as if kn4 made an attempt to dodge , it just didnt care to try cause it wouldnt hurt him anyway, his body moved because hes not 5000 pounds , regardless that hit did not hurt him so he didnt try to dodge, you make it seem like his reaction speed is too slow & still got hit by oro , letting yourself be tagged vs being tagged while trying to dodge is two different things, you talk like door #2 happened to support bees case


Prove KN4 didn't dodge and chose to get hit on purpose.


sonworth21 said:


> Frrr tho I'm a lost cause now with that KN4 dick riding


I know...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Asura barracuda (Feb 18, 2022)

Orochimaru op said:


> Tsunade landed a hit on Madara before he could react due to a surprise factor of her regen


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> 1. Being able to conjure a TBB doesn't necessarily translate to automatically better durability or physicals. For all we know that could be due to the fact that Kurama might have better chakra control than Gyuki, thus why he can conjure TBB in V2 form.
> 
> 2. If you are scaling Gyuki above the other Bijuu, then by default V2 Bee's shroud should be more than durable enough to take a Raikiri without discernable damage, like those Jins from the war arc. And as we know, Raikiri is a more refined version than Chidori, which already outperformed Kusanagi against V1 A4, who is less durable than V2 Bee.
> 
> ...


Dude … shut up your so lost lmaooo

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

sonworth21 said:


> The mental gymnastics on the KN4 camp.
> 
> Naww man, your logic sucks , its no 70 / 50 respectively, kurama is stronger than 5 bijuu combined minimum with 50% , that translates to much larger figures gap than your 70 for naruto, and 50 for bee, naruto would be far above even 130 with his boost
> 
> either stop sucking bee & gyuukis dick or shut up , seriously this dick riding is embarrassing



Seems like the KN4 jizz has clogged the arteries that lead you to your brain and you can't come up with a single counterpoint. 

Take a pause, calm down, read the manga, or learn how to read first, then come back.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

sonworth21 said:


> Dude … shut up your so lost lmaooo


Non-argument.

Concession accepted.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

Charmed said:


> But Sasori isnt stronger than Deidara just bcuz of a statement tho. There're a lot of things to be taken into account.


And same for Jiraiya (not that there needs to be more than a direct statement it isn’t up to the fans to decide), but Kisame was also saved from Jiraiya’s summoning jutsu by Itachi.


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## sonworth21 (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> How is the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee not bigger than the gap between 50% Kurama and Gyuki?
> 
> BoS Sasuke mentally blitzed Base Naruto, whereas Base Bee physically intercepted and overpowered V2 A4 who almost perception blitzed a faster and stronger version of Sasuke than the one that blitzed Base Naruto.
> 
> ...





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> How is the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee not bigger than the gap between 50% Kurama and Gyuki?
> 
> BoS Sasuke mentally blitzed Base Naruto, whereas Base Bee physically intercepted and overpowered V2 A4 who almost perception blitzed a faster and stronger version of Sasuke than the one that blitzed Base Naruto.
> 
> ...





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Non-argument.
> 
> Concession accepted.


0 reason to get my hands dirty when you cant even counter Turrin , i seen his points and i couldnt say it any better ,whatever gets you thru the night bee wanker


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

sonworth21 said:


> 0 reason to get my hands dirty when you cant even counter Turrin , i seen his points and i couldnt say it any better ,whatever gets you thru the night bee wanker

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> so Base Bee =~ Half Injured 3T Taka Sasuke =~ Gyuki?


Can’t recall 3T Sasuke beating Bee, even when Bee was loitering and letting Taka attack him

But we know Taka Sasuke would Genjutsu GG the bijuu, let alone the bum KN4


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## Shazam (Feb 18, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Can’t recall 3T Sasuke beating Bee, even when Bee was loitering and letting Taka attack him
> 
> But we know Taka Sasuke would Genjutsu GG the bijuu, let alone the bum KN4



you don’t really believe what you’re saying do you; suggesting base bee is A3 equals or better


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 18, 2022)

Shazam said:


> you don’t really believe what you’re saying do you; suggesting base bee is A3 equals or better


It’s not my belief the guy fought his bijuu in the Jinchuriki training temple just like Naruto who he was teaching and he survived and was logically implied he defeated him

Now maybe he had some help, like A4 in his head or something, but I can’t imagine it’d be enough to close the gap between Gyuki and KN4 though

A3 tying with Gyuki isn’t that impressive, what is impressive is that he did so physically while preventing Gyuki from causing a calamity in his village by firing bijuudama, so he’s above bijuu level in physicals as he physically overpowered, severely wounded and repeatedly blitzed Gyuki to interrupt Bijuudama, other kage levels can one panel Gyuki (Itachi, Sasuke, Obito, Kushina, Danzo, etc.), and others have straight up defeated bijuu (Deidara, Rasa).


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> That's a flawed comparison seeing as a Rasengan is significantly easier than a TBB to conjure.
> 
> If KN4 can manifest TBBs, then either:
> 
> ...


1) TBB is directly compared to Rasengan, so claiming the comparison is flawed doesn’t make sense; and you still have no answered why controlling a smaller amount of chakra would be more difficult then Hachibi being able to control a much large volume of chakra and do so at incredibly high speed to rapid fire TBB. 

All your saying is that well it has to be control because V2 B’s stats are better due to presupposing that V2 B is >=  characters like Deva Path in speed which your not providing evidence for. So there is nothing even in this point for me to address until you provide evidence for 

A) Why is controlling massively more chakra easier 

B) Why is Focused Deva Path slower then V2 B

2) There is so much wrong here I’ll take it  one point at at time 
——-
 Saying two things are like steel doesn’t make them exactly equal, it just means the author is hyping both Gai and A3 durability up beyond the norm. However if Kishi in the same DB says something is Adamantium/Diamond, it’s obvious that Kishi considers that second thing above the first two by some extent. I’m not saying it’s an exact science here I’m just saying lore wise Enma is more durable then A3.
——
Moving on Enma also isn’t scratched by Ksunagi so we can’t say KN4 is more durable then it, all we can say is that KN4 shows a similar level of durability to it 
——
I have no clue why you think SM FRS is weaker then KCM FRS; they were both similar sizes and more likely similar AP. Otherwise I need you to show me why KCM would be stronger with real evidence. 
—-
Moving on from that your also making a false equivalency between a Bijuu durability and their Chakra Shroud’s durability. Bijuu are less durable then their shroud. Sasuke for example cuts Hachibi Tentacles up with Chidori Eisou and A4 with Raiton Chop, but we have seen the shrouds of weaker Bijuu no sell Raikiri as you pointed out yourself.
—-
Beyond that even Kurama took next to no damage from FRS; his Fur was just messed up; most of the issue there wasn’t damage but the fact that the Rasenshuriken gave Naruto an opening to pull out his chakra. 

3) Yes it’s possible he was suffering some rejection and then surprised that he was suffering even worse rejection at the end of the fight. But that’s your burden to prove not mine since your asserting that’s the case. It also wouldn’t change the fact that the Orochimaru who faced KN4 was in better condition then the one who faced Sasuke; as your still conceding his condition got worse (if not much worse) by the end of this encounter. 

4) OM this point your making doesn’t even matter because we’re not talking about Orochimaru at the end of the KN4 fight we’re talking about Orochimaru during the fight with KN4. So if your already conceding that Orochimaru while fighting Kn4 is in better condition then when he faced Sasuke (and you can’t even prove he was hindered at all in-fact) were done here, I’ve won this point 

5) I’ve already explained to you on discord that this difference is because your not interpreting flicker correctly. Sasuke got perception blitz’d by V2 A4 flick not his physical movement speed.
—-
Kisame wasnt reacting to V1 B, Samehada was; Samehada also reacts to V2 B to get in-front of his Lariate 

6. Lariate is piercing damage though so what are you talking about OM? If Aoba can hurt Kisame with piercing damage to his Kunai, then Lariate being able to do piercing damage to him is no this amazing feat your making it out to be

7/8) Your only argument is superior physicals which I debunked above or asked for real evidence of in some cases so nothing to go into here really 

9) We are talking about the gap between Kurama and Hachibi here versus B and Naruto; not KN4; this is a separate point based on your original assertion that the gap between those 2 was smaller then Base B and Naruto; don’t try to shift the goal post 

10) How does B outperform Naruto? Literally they both keep up with Non-Flick A4. Yes B hits A4 with Lariate and knocks him down but Naruto literally never even tries to attack A4. So how is that in anyway a fair comparison.


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gulash said:


> He talking to Naruto when he say its impossible.
> He is directing that sentence to him.Naruto is a host.
> There is,cause thats a tehnique tied to bijus.
> Theyre just better with it than anybody else and can perform it even with less power.
> And also its because kishi says so in his own manga.


Dude if it was an issue of skill then Hachibi wouldn’t say it’s impossible for a Jin to do it; he would say it’s extremely difficult or you would need year of training to accomplish it; because skill can be achieved. Unless your going to argue Hachibi thinks no one can ever achieve the skill of a Tailed Beast; not Hagaromo, not Kaguya, not Hashirama, etc… which is obviously wrong


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## Itachi x Tenten (Feb 18, 2022)

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask im curious then since your opinion is strongly supported by the strength of base Bee/Naruto

if this were a hypothetical FKS Naruto going into KN4 mode would your opinion change? or is the gap between the two in base still too large?


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Dude if it was an issue of skill then Hachibi wouldn’t say it’s impossible for a Jin to do it; he would say it’s extremely difficult or you would need year of training to accomplish it; because skill can be achieved. Unless your going to argue Hachibi thinks no one can ever achieve the skill of a Tailed Beast; not Hagaromo, not Kaguya, not Hashirama, etc… which is obviously wrong


He said its impossible for a host outside of BM but in kn4 case a biju was using it not a host.
Thats whats manga saying so im gonna go with that.
Nothing to do with your opinion of kn4 being stronger than v2 Bee.

Or do you think kn4>kcm naruto in power?
Cause you think its about power.


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) TBB is directly compared to Rasengan, so claiming the comparison is flawed doesn’t make sense; and you still have no answered why controlling a smaller amount of chakra would be more difficult then Hachibi being able to control a much large volume of chakra and do so at incredibly high speed to rapid fire TBB.


TBB being compared to a Rasengan doesn't mean the techniques are of equal difficulty, Rasengan was merely inspired by TBB.

That doesn't mean it shares the same amount of chakra control necessary to manifest it. FRS is also similar and based on a Rasengan but is way harder to manifest.

There's a reason KCM 1 Naruto is shown having 0 difficulties manifesting FRS that takes greater chakra control than a Rasengan but needs more time to fully manifest a mini-TBB, and also needs both his hands in addition to 2 chakra arms to conjure it.

And I don't get what your argument for the other V2 Bijuu not being able to use a TBB is, is it chakra volume?

If it's chakra volume, as in KN4 having access to more chakra than Bee has in V2?

If that is your argument, then you are conceding about your claim which asserts that the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee isn't large, as you are inferring that Kurama's chakra, which is way more potent than Gyuki's and is circulating through Naruto in greater amounts and still isn't making up for the gap between their physicals.

So you are only left with chakra control on the table. And there can be made an argument for being harder to use TBBs in V2 seeing as it takes longer for KN6 and KN4 to fully manifest and fire a TBB than in BM, and neither KN4 nor KN6 can fire those TBBs in a barrage either like a BM version can.

Also, only Gyuki and Kurama are shown to be capable of using rapid-fire barrages, which implies that not all Bijuu have comparable chakra control.


Turrin said:


> All your saying is that well it has to be control because V2 B’s stats are better due to presupposing that V2 B is >=  characters like Deva Path in speed which your not providing evidence for. So there is nothing even in this point for me to address until you provide evidence for
> 
> A) Why is controlling massively more chakra easier


I've explained above.


Turrin said:


> B) Why is Focused Deva Path slower then V2 B


Focused Deva Path was tagged by SM Naruto's Rasengan.

SM Naruto who's slower than V2 Bee.

Perhaps his most impressive feat is dodging FRS, but A3 who's comparable to V1 A4 in speed by Naruto does the same to much faster FRSs that were launched at him with KCM chakra arms, and even V1 A4 was fast enough to synchronize with V1 A4.


Turrin said:


> 2) There is so much wrong here I’ll take it  one point at at time
> ——-
> Saying two things are like steel doesn’t make them exactly equal, it just means the author is hyping both Gai and A3 durability up beyond the norm. However if Kishi in the same DB says something is Adamantium/Diamond, it’s obvious that Kishi considers that second thing above the first two by some extent. I’m not saying it’s an exact science here I’m just saying lore wise Enma is more durable then A3.
> ——
> Moving on Enma also isn’t scratched by Ksunagi so we can’t say KN4 is more durable then it, all we can say is that KN4 shows a similar level of durability to it


Even if I steelman the interpretation of Enma > A3 despite the lack of feats to back it up and A3 likely eating TBBs from Gyuki, we still run into several issues:

1. If KN4's durability is comparable to Enma who's more durable than A3, then by default, you are implying KN4's durability is better than the superior 50% Kurama by virtue of Enma being able to tank TBBs and KCM FRSs as per at least the assertion of him being more durable than A3 and scaling KN4 to Enma because Kusanagi failed to pierce him.

You'll probably bring up V2 shrouds displaying better durability to piercing attacks, but the greatest durability showcased is in full BM, as seen with Gyuki tanks TBBs, a superior attack compared to Raikiri, and FRS.

2. You have to prove Orochimaru hit KN4 with the same force Enma was hit with by the Kusanagi blade.

3. The way more durable KN6 showed signs of damage and had trouble standing on its legs after he got hit by the boulder Pain BT'd on him and probably some force that hit him that resulted from the detonation of his TBB, something that doesn't add up with the narrative you are pushing of KN4 ~ Enma >> TBB >> KCM FRS, as someone who tanks FRSs and TBBs I'm pretty sure isn't going to have difficulties with a boulder and not even the full extent of the force of an inferior TBB compared to a BM Jin.

So either Enma is in fact more durable than A3 but scaling KN4 off of Enma is flawed because you can't prove he was hit with the same force by the Kusanagi blade, and the stronger KN6 ending up damaged by attacks much weaker than what Enma and KN4 are supposed to tank based on your scaling.


Turrin said:


> ——
> I have no clue why you think SM FRS is weaker then KCM FRS; they were both similar sizes and more likely similar AP. Otherwise I need you to show me why KCM would be stronger with real evidence.


Kurama's chakra is stronger than Sage Mode as an amp for Naruto and is the standard mode he was spamming during the war arc, he says so himself when he states that he is much stronger than he was before when he fought Pain.

If Sage Mode was stronger or comparable, then I don't see why wouldn't he just use an SM FRS on his targets, including A3 then spend so much chakra on maintaining KCM and having his own chakra stolen by Kurama.

Being of similar size does not help your point, because runs on NE, the other uses Kurama's chakra.


Turrin said:


> —-
> Moving on from that your also making a false equivalency between a Bijuu durability and their Chakra Shroud’s durability. Bijuu are less durable then their shroud. Sasuke for example cuts Hachibi Tentacles up with Chidori Eisou and A4 with Raiton Chop, but we have seen the shrouds of weaker Bijuu no sell Raikiri as you pointed out yourself.


This doesn't apply to all kinds of attacks, seeing as BM Bee has arguably greater durability feats than his shrouded version by virtue of tanking his own TBB, a feat that was never replicated by a V2 version Bijuu.

I specifically told you that this has more to do with piercing attacks. In the context of examining A3's feats and likening them to Enma, then to KN4, it's more accurate to explain what these V2 Jins would do against TBBs and KCM FRSs.


Turrin said:


> —-
> Beyond that even Kurama took next to no damage from FRS; his Fur was just messed up; most of the issue there wasn’t damage but the fact that the Rasenshuriken gave Naruto an opening to pull out his chakra.


How is Kurama screaming in pain and ending up knocked down, needing some time to get up in the process, and showing visible scratches that the author uses to indicate damage, not a sign of damage?


Turrin said:


> 3) Yes it’s possible he was suffering some rejection and then surprised that he was suffering even worse rejection at the end of the fight. But that’s your burden to prove not mine since your asserting that’s the case. It also wouldn’t change the fact that the Orochimaru who faced KN4 was in better condition then the one who faced Sasuke; as your still conceding his condition got worse (if not much worse) by the end of this encounter.


I never claimed Orochimaru didn't get worse and was totally washed up by the time the fight ended. If he was sick, to begin with, then he wasn't operating at 100% of his capacity.

Unless you think he was sick but his physicals were at top capacity, which doesn't make sense to me.


Turrin said:


> 4) OM this point your making doesn’t even matter because we’re not talking about Orochimaru at the end of the KN4 fight we’re talking about Orochimaru during the fight with KN4. So if your already conceding that Orochimaru while fighting Kn4 is in better condition then when he faced Sasuke (and you can’t even prove he was hindered at all in-fact) were done here, I’ve won this point


You misunderstood, you claimed that the Orochimaru who fought CM1 Sasuke is in a worse condition than his KN4 fight version, which I agree with, I never argued against that, so I'm not conceding to anything.

But to me, it seems that you also think that the same deathbed Orochimaru is in a worse condition than the end of the KN4 fight Orochimaru who was washed up, or maybe you didn't mean that.

In regards to his sickness affecting his physicals, I addressed that in my above post.


Turrin said:


> 5) I’ve already explained to you on discord that this difference is because your not interpreting flicker correctly. Sasuke got perception blitz’d by V2 A4 flick not his physical movement speed.
> —-


I'd prefer to continue and finish this debate on Discord, as getting into side debates is very exhausting for me but if you want we can also speak about it here.


Turrin said:


> Kisame wasnt reacting to V1 B, Samehada was; Samehada also reacts to V2 B to get in-front of his Lariate


Based on what exactly?


Turrin said:


> 6. Lariate is piercing damage though so what are you talking about OM? If Aoba can hurt Kisame with piercing damage to his Kunai, then Lariate being able to do piercing damage to him is no this amazing feat your making it out to be


Aoba's Kunai didn't hurt a one and a half V1 cloak amped Kisame though. So this doesn't work.

V2 Bee's lariat exploded the ribcage of a V1 amount of chakra present in cloak amped Kisame.

And I don't believe that using Kunais helps your point, as characters in this manga with great durability have been harmed by swords and kunai.

Even Sage Mode Rinnegan Madara whose body could take the force from multiple Bijuu blows without exploding had to dodge Tobirama's kunai slash.

Slashing and piercing damage are different compared to attacks that cover a larger area. Would you say Aoba's Kunai scales above KCM 1 Naruto's Yellow Flash flicker punch because it hurt a Kisame who was in a much better condition?


Turrin said:


> 7/8) Your only argument is superior physicals which I debunked above or asked for real evidence of in some cases so nothing to go into here really


You didn't debunk it though.

Tell me how KN4 ending up tagged by sick Orochimaru is comparable or better than even Bee physically intercepting and overpowering V2 A4 in base.

Then add V2 levels of chakra on top of that base.


Turrin said:


> 9) We are talking about the gap between Kurama and Hachibi here versus B and Naruto; not KN4; this is a separate point based on your original assertion that the gap between those 2 was smaller then Base B and Naruto; don’t try to shift the goal post


So the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee is so large that Base Bee overpowers a Kage level team with relative ease while Base Naruto got curbfodderstomped and blitzed by BoS Sasuke.

The same BoS Sasuke has inferior reactions and physicals compared to FKS Sasuke who almost got perception blitzed by V2 A4 whom Base Bee overpowered and kept up in the lariat clash.

What physical feats does 50% Kurama have for you to argue that it would blitz Gyuki and neg diff overpowering him?

Because that's what Base Bee would do to Base Naruto if we go by feats.


Turrin said:


> 10) How does B outperform Naruto? Literally they both keep up with Non-Flick A4. Yes B hits A4 with Lariate and knocks him down but Naruto literally never even tries to attack A4. So how is that in anyway a fair comparison.


Maybe because KCM 1 Naruto is forced to block each time A4 punches him and he gets sent a massive distance away and even comments on his strength?

KCM 1 Naruto lacks the physical strength feats to suggest that he would overpower V2 A4 in a clash of strength outside of his top flicker and even then we don't know if he pulls it out, and that would still put V2 Bee significantly above him in strength considering what his lariat did to an amped Kisame compared to what KCM 1 Naruto's punch that was amped by his top flicker did to an anorexic Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 18, 2022)

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask, Bijuudama is literally ranked as a S-Class jutsu in DB4, whereas Rasengan is merely A-Class. You're absolutely right about the difficulty difference, Bijuudama is harder.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Speedyamell (Feb 18, 2022)

@Gulash Gyuki was telling naruto tbb could not be done within bm.... what's the argument there..? It's a direct statement?


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## Monarch (Feb 18, 2022)

Six Paths Scaling said:


> @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask im curious then since your opinion is strongly supported by the strength of base Bee/Naruto
> 
> if this were a hypothetical FKS Naruto going into KN4 mode would your opinion change? or is the gap between the two in base still too large?



Naruto may put up a better fight but ultimately Bee folds him like a shoelace.

I solely believe that only KN6 and up beats V2 Bee.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> TBB being compared to a Rasengan doesn't mean the techniques are of equal difficulty, Rasengan was merely inspired by TBB.
> 
> That doesn't mean it shares the same amount of chakra control necessary to manifest it. FRS is also similar and based on a Rasengan but is way harder to manifest.
> 
> ...


1) I’m not saying TBB isn’t more difficult then Rasengan; I’m asking you why it would be easier to be able to control a large quantity of chakra for a large TBB in BM then a smaller quantity of chakra in V2.

And I’m not conceding anything because I’m debunking your premise that there is a gap in physicals.

2) Now your argument that Tendou is slower is based on the presupposition that SM Naruto is slower, which is based on what exactly?

3) OM were talking about piercing attacks though not blunt force. I showed you a direct example of how Hachibi could not rank piercing attacks while a weaker Bijuu’s V2 Shroud can. Shifting the goal post to talk about blunt force attacks like TBB is not addressing or acknowledging that the shrouds have shown better piercing attack resistance. So literally nothing you said actually addresses this point.

4) I interpret Naruto being much stronger now that he has KCM because KCM doesn’t have as short of a time-limit as SM and has more chakra then S; not that it has greater raw chakra potency especially when using the same level of FRS (as when FRS levels up it usually becomes Oddoma or Chou Oddoma). So unless you can specially prove that Statement means potency then I don’t think your premise holds any weight

5/6) What I’m saying is it doesn’t matter if Orochimaru who fought Sasuke is weaker or stronger then the one at the end of the KN4 fight; all that matters is that during the fight with KN4 Orochimaru was stronger then when he fought CM1 Sasuke and therefore scales higher then CM1 Sasuke.

7) We can finish it on discord, but just know I’m not accepting any scaling that ignores the properties of Flickr we discussed as legitimate

8)  It’s literally Samehada that’s moving there, otherwise show me where Kisame himself reacted to V1 B

9)Kisame prior to be hit by Aoba absorbed all of B’s chakra to the point B collapsed after one partial transformation. In contrast Kisame wasn’t amped by V1 when hit by V2, that chakra was still in Samehada. 
—-
Saying characters with great durability have been harmed by piercing weapons also applies to Lariate which is a piercing weapon. Please stop tying to ignore the fact that these are all the same type of attacks.

10) I already told you OM. 3T FKS Sasuke is slower then 3T CM Sasuke who KN4 fight Orochimaru scales above, as a weaker Orochimaru was evading CM1 Sasuke, and 3T FKs Sasuke could tag A4’s physical speed. V2 does not offer a significant physical speed amp, we know this since Base-B kept up with V1 and V2 A4; the only significant speed amp comes from V2 A4 reflexes being higher and allowing him to use flicker quicker, which he did not use against Base-B.

So essentially we have Orochimaru >> 3T FKS Sasuke =~ V1/2 A4 (non flicker), which is the one Base-B intercepted.

11) Dude the Sasuke B faced was nerfed weaker then the one BoS Naruto faced. Sasuke also used flicker against Naruto when he perception blitz’d him which he didn’t use against B. So Sasuke had two major speed debuffs against B (Injured and Didn’t use flicker). And I already explained the Raikage stuff above.

12) I don’t think Gyuuki has any feats even remotely in the realm of Outspeeding SM Naruto. But also idk why your trying to shift the goal post to making this totally about speed; as Kurama is way stronger then Gyuuki for reasons outside of speed primarily.

13) He wasn’t forced to block every time he literally was going to use a Jutsu before B took over. He was blocking and just trying to dash his way through because he wasn’t trying to seriously fight the Raikage. Come on now let’s not dip into dishonestly OM.

OM KCM Naruto on the last bit of his chakra was holding back the Jaws of the Yonbi. What feat does Raikage have anywhere near that in physical strength.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Turrin (Feb 18, 2022)

Gulash said:


> He said its impossible for a host outside of BM but in kn4 case a biju was using it not a host.
> Thats whats manga saying so im gonna go with that.
> Nothing to do with your opinion of kn4 being stronger than v2 Bee.
> 
> ...


You didn’t answer my point at all so I’m going to repeat it and if you don’t I’m going to take it as a concession:

Dude if it was an issue of skill then Hachibi wouldn’t say it’s impossible for a Jin to do it; he would say it’s extremely difficult or you would need year of training to accomplish it; because skill can be achieved. Unless your going to argue Hachibi thinks no one can ever achieve the skill of a Tailed Beast; not Hagaromo, not Kaguya, not Hashirama, etc… which is obviously wrong
—-
And yes I do in raw chakra power think KN4 is above KCM; KCM is better because it can use Ninjutsu and Taijutsu of Naruto though


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Turrin said:


> You didn’t answer my point at all so I’m going to repeat it and if you don’t I’m going to take it as a concession:
> 
> Dude if it was an issue of skill then Hachibi wouldn’t say it’s impossible for a Jin to do it; he would say it’s extremely difficult or you would need year of training to accomplish it; because skill can be achieved. Unless your going to argue Hachibi thinks no one can ever achieve the skill of a Tailed Beast; not Hagaromo, not Kaguya, not Hashirama, etc… which is obviously wrong
> —-
> And yes I do in raw chakra power think KN4 is above KCM; KCM is better because it can use Ninjutsu and Taijutsu of Naruto though


The thing is you were wrong when you said Hachibi never mentioned a host and now youre trying to fund your way around that.

I mentioned the skill part as an option.
I dont know what exactly Kishi had in mind but i know what he said.
Also you missunderstand.
Its not like you need to achive the skill of tailed beast overall.
Biju could have had some particular affinity,talent for TBB.
It look like TBB comes to bijus very naturaly,more of like reflex.
Look at Naruto,he mastered SM better than Jiraiya but still had to use clones for COR while Jiraiya didnt.
And there are exceptions to every rule but i dont see why would you lump Hashirama with the likes of Kaguya and Hogoromo...

Ok,agree to disagree i quess.


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## Gulash (Feb 18, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> @Gulash Gyuki was telling naruto tbb could not be done within bm.... what's the argument there..? It's a direct statement?


We saw it can be cause kn4 used it.
Turrin argues its cause kn4 is more powerfull than v2 Bee.
But gyukis exact words were a host can not use it outside of BM.
In kn4 case a host was not using TBB,kurama was.
So saying that kn4 is stronger cause it used a TBB is a false argument...

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Leaf Hurricane (Feb 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> Imagine the denial…


Not better than you.
You practically live in it lmao.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Speedyamell (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> We saw it can be cause kn4 used it.
> Turrin argues its cause kn4 is more powerfull than v2 Bee.
> But gyukis exact words were a host can not use it outside of BM.
> In kn4 case a host was not using TBB,kurama was.
> So saying that kn4 is stronger cause it used a TBB is a false argument...


No, gyuki simply said it was impossible without bm... I don't know why you're resorting to adding things that weren't there. He wouldn't say that if he could do it as well in Other modes by just "taking control" that makes no sense.

Kn4 being able to do that makes him the exception to the rule, not the standard. After all, the other V2 jins in the war never used tbb either. And even the 8 tails itself kept getting surprised by kurama's power in the war, so clearly he wasn't aware of the kyuubi's capabilities. 

Being able to use tbb does indeed make Kn4 better than V2 bee ontop of having superior feats in general


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> No, gyuki simply said it was impossible without bm... I don't know why you're resorting to adding things that weren't there. He wouldn't say that if he could do it as well in Other modes by just "taking control" that makes


No he said its imposible for a host outside of BM.
Than he said to Naruto,who is a host,that is imposible for him outside BM.
Yet we see its posible but we know host was not in control when KN4 did it.Kurama was in control,firing that TBB.
Its pretty straightforward.
Im not adding anything,this was said in the manga.Chapter 519.





Speedyamell said:


> Kn4 being able to do that makes him the exception to the rule, not the standard. After all, the other V2 jins in the war never used tbb either. And even the 8 tails itself kept getting surprised by kurama's power in the war, so clearly he wasn't aware of the kyuubi's capabilities.


Sure kyubi is powerfull but KN4 is not an exception.
Do you think kn4>kcm naruto then?
Host can  not do it but biju can as we saw.
Just cause other jins did not use it doesnt mean they couldnt.
After all obito was controling them and he wanted to capture Bee and Naruto,not kill them.





Speedyamell said:


> Being able to use tbb does indeed make Kn4 better than V2 bee ontop of having superior feats in general


Sure you can argue that being able to use TBB makes kn4 better but you cant use that as a premise to claim kn4 is faster,stronger or more durable.
Also it was stated Jubito is more powerfull than Jubi cause he could focus that power.
And when that statement was made Jubito did not make big ass shockwaves like Jubi did.
Thats why jins are stronger,cause they can better use bijus power.
So just cause Kurama in kn4 mode was throwing power around wildly that does not mean its stronger than V2 Bee who can focus his power better and had no reason to do that especially with an ally close.


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## Djyc21215 (Feb 19, 2022)

Azula said:


> Barely killed Kisame with zero protection, Will it get past KN4 cloak?



I think this is the first time i've ever agreed with this chick.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Capa13 (Feb 19, 2022)

V2 Bee mid diffs. Base Orochimaru with deficient arms was stalemating/surviving/sparring with KN4 while V2 Bee was dealing with WA level threats.


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## Speedyamell (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> No he said its imposible for a host outside of BM.


How do you think this is some sort of counter argument to begin with? A biju without a host would simply be in biju form anyways no? It is only with a host that different level and types of transformations can be undergone.
And that's where the "it can only be done with Bm" could apply


Gulash said:


> Than he said to Naruto,who is a host,that is imposible for him outside BM.


This is what I mean of you adding on stuff. Bee was stating a general rule.. it is not something that applies to only naruto...


Gulash said:


> Yet we see its posible but we know host was not in control when KN4 did it


Yes and that makes Kn4 an exception to the rule. As I said, gyuki wasn't aware of kurama's full capabilities and kept on getting surprised by his powers I the war.
Don't forget that the same kcm naruto gyuki was talking to still went on to be able to do the tbb in that form. So gyuki was only speaking from his perspective which means the rule at the very least applies to him and bee.


Gulash said:


> Sure kyubi is powerfull but KN4 is not an exception.


Yes it is, it did something deemed impossible. That's the definition of an exception


Gulash said:


> Do you think kn4>kcm naruto then


kcm naruto could also do tbb so this doesn't help your argument


Gulash said:


> Just cause other jins did not use it doesnt mean they couldnt.
> After all obito was controling them and he wanted to capture Bee and Naruto,not kill them.


That's exactly what it means.
Obito had no reason to not try to kill kakashi and gai, and infact he had the jins undergo biju transformation to try to blow them up with like 5 biju bombs.
The other V2 jin can't use tbb, and neither can bee.


Gulash said:


> Sure you can argue that being able to use TBB makes kn4 better but you cant use that as a premise to claim kn4 is faster,stronger or more durable.


I don't need to, As kurama has greater portrayal and feats any way


Gulash said:


> Also it was stated Jubito is more powerfull than Jubi cause he could focus that power.
> And when that statement was made Jubito did not make big ass shockwaves like Jubi did.
> Thats why jins are stronger,cause they can better use bijus power.


Not exactly.  Perfect jin > jin > biju is indeed correct, but when obito was outdoing the juubi, he wasn't even in control yet. It was the juubi itself that was stated to be focusing its power better because that's what happens when a jinchuriki is made even when the biju is still in control.

And the whole reason juubito was called stronger was because he had > feats than the juubi?? The juubi could be restrained by mokuton gates which juubito negged and blew apart, as well as the hokage barrier which juubito ripped apart despite it tanking the juubi tbb earlier.


Gulash said:


> So just cause Kurama in kn4 mode was throwing power around wildly that does not mean its stronger than V2 Bee who can focus his power better and had no reason to do that especially with an ally close.


The above argument doesn't support your point since as I highlighted, juubito had greater feats of power than the juubi.
Here, it is Kn4 that has the greater feats of power. And it wasn't just "throwing attacks around wildly" everything it did was for a purpose

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Captain Quincy (Feb 19, 2022)

Bee should scale higher. If he got samehada then he destroys since it'll take Naruto's chakra.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Asura barracuda (Feb 19, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> Bee should scale higher. If he got samehada then he destroys since it'll take Naruto's chakra.


Samehada can't absorb KN4 chakra, it's too corrosive/potent and like samehada said, it doesn't like fire style. Which KN4 is even way more potent than.

Why do you think Kuramas chakra had to undergo massive purification before it could be used by Naruto. It would have Killed him if he dared use it in it's rawest form.


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## Captain Quincy (Feb 19, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Samehada can't absorb KN4 chakra, it's too corrosive/potent and like samehada said, it doesn't like fire style. Which KN4 is even more potent than.
> 
> Why do you think Kuramass chakra had to undergo purification before it could be used by Naruto. It would have Killed him if he dared use it in it's rawest form.


I'm probably just forgetting, but you know when these were said?


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## Asura barracuda (Feb 19, 2022)

Captain Quincy said:


> I'm probably just forgetting, but you know when these were said?



Oh yeah it was somewhere during the beginning of the war arc I think. I'll try to find the exact moment

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> How do you think this is some sort of counter argument to begin with? A biju without a host would simply be in biju form anyways no? It is only with a host that different level and types of transformations can be undergone.
> And that's where the "it can only be done with Bm" could apply


Term host refers to a person who has a biju sealed in them.
If a biju is in control than host is not using any tehniques,biju is.
It was pretty clear,a host,shinobi,can not cast TBB outside of BM but a biju can as thats what was shown to us.





Speedyamell said:


> This is what I mean of you adding on stuff. Bee was stating a general rule.. it is not something that applies to only naruto...


Yes general rules is host cant use it outise BM but biju can.
I dont know why youre saying im adding things when this was said and shown in manga.





Speedyamell said:


> Yes and that makes Kn4 an exception to the rule. As I said, gyuki wasn't aware of kurama's full capabilities and kept on getting surprised by his powers I the war.
> Don't forget that the same kcm naruto gyuki was talking to still went on to be able to do the tbb in that form. So gyuki was only speaking from his perspective which means the rule at the very least applies to him and


Nah the rules are pretty clear.
Ok please show where kcm used TBB.





Speedyamell said:


> kcm naruto could also do tbb so this doesn't help your argument


Scan?





Speedyamell said:


> That's exactly what it means.
> Obito had no reason to not try to kill kakashi and gai, and infact he had the jins undergo biju transformation to try to blow them up with like 5 biju bombs.
> The other V2 jin can't use tbb, and neither can bee.


Firstly we have no idea how Obitos control even works.
Is he controling the jins?I think he is,hes controling the shinobis and hes using their abilities through them.
So if they cant use TBB without BM so can not Obito.
Yes the jins aka hosts cant but if bijus are in control they can as we have seen this with KN4.





Speedyamell said:


> don't need to, As kurama has greater portrayal and feats any way


Yes full kurama,not less than half the power Kurama.





Speedyamell said:


> Not exactly. Perfect jin > jin > biju is indeed correct, but when obito was outdoing the juubi, he wasn't even in control yet. It was the juubi itself that was stated to be focusing its power better because that's what happens when a jinchuriki is made even when the biju is still in control.
> 
> And the whole reason juubito was called stronger was because he had > feats than the juubi?? The juubi could be restrained by mokuton gates which juubito negged and blew apart, as well as the hokage barrier which juubito ripped apart despite it tanking the juubi tbb earlier.


No nowhere was it stated that the it was jubi itself focusing the power.
If it was please scan or cite the chapter.
What i meant was,Jubi was producing large shockwaves which visually seem great just like kn4 did.
That bigger aoe doesnt mean more power.
Oro was fine standing in that huge crater kn4 produced with its shockwave.





Speedyamell said:


> The above argument doesn't support your point since as I highlighted, juubito had greater feats of power than the juubi.
> Here, it is Kn4 that has the greater feats of power. And it wasn't just "throwing attacks around wildly" everything it did was for a purpose


Ok and kn4 was tagged by sick oro while v2 Bee blitzed Kisame.
It did make a lot of shockwaves that did nothing.
What else did it do?
Destroyed Oros snakes?
Why do you think V2 Bee cant do that?
Just cause he did not need to against Kisame?


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## Asura barracuda (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Ok and kn4 was tagged by sick oro while v2 Bee blitzed Kisame.
> It did make a lot of shockwaves that did



The fight between Oro who was damn near at full power and KN4 was really damn different than when that same incarnation fought pain again.

KN4 pretty much for the whole fight with Oro just stayed in one spot while it let Orochimaru throw everything it had at it and it still couldn't come close to damaging it.

Did you see the expressions through out the whole fight, it was just something of a play fight to it.

That same incarnation when it fought Tendo pain who is way stronger than Orochimaru even if he were at full strength performed way better. It actually fought Tendo pain, the seal interfered In that fight and that was when he went six tails and had pain on the run for his life.

The manga fight was even worse for pain, the anime even gave him some hope with KN4.


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## Raiken (Feb 19, 2022)

It could go either way imo.

KN6 Naruto >> V2 B ~ KN4 Naruto

50% Kyuubi is probably around twice as powerful as the Hachibi, if not more. So them being roughly equal in power makes some sense.
B has an intelligence advantage sure. But Naruto has the Bijuu Dama advantage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> The thing is you were wrong when you said Hachibi never mentioned a host and now youre trying to fund your way around that.
> 
> I mentioned the skill part as an option.
> I dont know what exactly Kishi had in mind but i know what he said.
> ...


No actually I was  the never mentioned a host the second time; he just said in general. Your saying because he was talking to Naruto he still meant only the host, to which I’ve asked you why he would make this distinction when if it was a matter of skill that makes no sense.
—-
The Skill for TBB coming more naturally to Tailed Beast is fine that still doesn’t mean it’s impossible for Non Tailed Beast to use TBB; it would just mean it would require high levels of training to gain this skill. So again Hachibi saying it’s impossible outside BM doesn’t make any sense if this was skill based.


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## Ludi (Feb 19, 2022)

Why would people use "kurama" > "gyuuki" while this is 4 tails kurama in V2 versus 8 tails gyuuki in V2.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiken (Feb 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Why would people use "kurama" > "gyuuki" while this is 4 tails kurama in V2 versus 8 tails gyuuki in V2.


50% Kyuubi is easily more than x2 the Hachibi.

8T is double 4T. Sooo... do the math.

They should be roughly comparable in power.


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## Ludi (Feb 19, 2022)

Raiken said:


> 8T is double 4T


You think 2x KN4 would be able to match KN8?


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Why would people use "kurama" > "gyuuki" while this is 4 tails kurama in V2 versus 8 tails gyuuki in V2.


Because even at 4-Tails Kurama should logically be way stronger then Gyuuki still.

4-Tails is still nearly half 50% Kurama’s Chakra and 50% Kurama bodied 5 Bijuu, with the 7-Tails alone being close to Gyuuki. So Gyuuki is like 1/5 at best the power of 50% Kurama; and as such it’s V2 form is about 1/5th V2 Kurama; and so even if KN4 is a little less then half so let’s say 2/5th Kurama; that’s still significantly above Gyuuki (and it may be much more then this as that’s a low ball estimate of Kurama).


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> You think 2x KN4 would be able to match KN8?


Yes 4-Tails is mad underrated on the Forum simply because Jiriaya “beat” it somehow


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## Ludi (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 4-Tails is still nearly half 50% Kurama’s Chakra and 50% Kurama bodied 5 Bijuu, with the 7-Tails alone being close to Gyuuki. So Gyuuki is like 1/5 at best the power of 50% Kurama; and as such it’s V2 form is about 1/5th V2 Kurama; and so even if KN4 is a little less then half so let’s say 2/5th Kurama; that’s still significantly above Gyuuki (and it may be much more then this as that’s a low ball estimate of Kurama).


By your logic KN4 is like 4/9 of 50% kurama at best. So 2/9 kurama. Not 2/5th kurama. 2/5th kurama / 2, maybe you meant that. 

Besides that how do we know gyuuki is below that? 

Even if 50% kurama bodies 5 biju that doesn't necessarily mean he has 5x as much chakra, can you proof chakra volume increase linearly improves damage output?

Even if the jump from KN4 to KN6 would be only 1.5x amp in volume, that doesn't mean someone 1.5x as strong as the opponent can beat 1.5x that opponent necessarily either. Could be more could be less.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## dergeist (Feb 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Inb4 the "hur durr Kurama > Gyuki" arguments when Bee's base is significantly stronger than Naruto thus more than making up for the gap between Gyuki's and Kurama's chakra, and on top of V2 Bee's form being more advanced by virtue of the bones present over his cloak.



You came in after it


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## Djyc21215 (Feb 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> My man Sasuke’s Chokutō sword (though he refers to it as Kusanagi) isn’t the same sword or kind of sword that Orochimaru used on Naruto. Orochimaru’s Sword has feats of injuring the diamond durability staff of Enma.





Shazam said:


> @Aegon Targaryen  Orochimaru sword is also a variant of the Totuska Blade, it’s far superior to Sasuke’s basic sword



Kusanagi simply means "Serpent-Sword". Sasuke's Sword was a serpent sword, but not all Serpent-swords are the same. I think this is where the Confusion lies. Orochimaru had 2 of 3 Legendary ones, while Itachi had the one he was searching for, the Totsuka Serpent-sword. Sasuke's Kusanagi, was just a regular serpent-sword.


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> No actually I was the never mentioned a host the second time; he just said in general. Your saying because he was talking to Naruto he still meant only the host, to which I’ve asked you why he would make this distinction when if it was a matter of skill that makes no sense.


Kishi explained to us a few pages earlier,through Hachibi,that a host can not use TBB outside of BM.
So second time Hachibis statement was directed at Naruto,Naruto was trying to perform it,and Naruto is a host.
Not everything has to be repeated especially when it has been told to us in the same chapter.





Turrin said:


> The Skill for TBB coming more naturally to Tailed Beast is fine that still doesn’t mean it’s impossible for Non Tailed Beast to use TBB; it would just mean it would require high levels of training to gain this skill. So again Hachibi saying it’s impossible outside BM doesn’t make any sense if this was skill based.


I mentioned skill as an option,i have no idea what were Kishis exact reasons for host being unable to use TBB outside BM but i know what he said.
Now that i think about it proly isnt skill based,its proly something that bijus can use on instinct and were always capable of doing.
I dont think they spent time learning it,like Naruto did with the rasengan.
And even if it is skill based not everybody can learn everything man,no matter how hard you train...
And i understand if you think KN4 is stronger than V2 Bee i just think its false to assume it cause KN4 can use TBB when we have clear explanation as to why was that posible.


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> By your logic KN4 is like 4/9 of 50% kurama at best. So 2/9 kurama. Not 2/5th kurama. 2/5th kurama / 2, maybe you meant that.
> 
> Besides that how do we know gyuuki is below that?
> 
> ...


Kurama is >= all 8 other Bijuu according to the balance of the Bijuu in GM.

That means 50% Kurama is >= 4 Bijuu; and KN4 is around half that so it would be >= 2-Bijuu (roughly).

Hachibi does not have any feats that indicate it would be >= 2 Bijuu.

This is another way we arrive at the same conclusion of KN4 being at least double the strength of other V2 Jins. Which is supported by the feats of KN4 chakra wise far exceeding the abilities of other V2 Jins.

And it must be stressed this is a conservative estimate as the author himself says it could be a-lot more then this in interviews


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Kishi explained to us a few pages earlier,through Hachibi,that a host can not use TBB outside of BM.
> So second time Hachibis statement was directed at Naruto,Naruto was trying to perform it,and Naruto is a host.
> Not everything has to be repeated especially when it has been told to us in the same chapter.
> I mentioned skill as an option,i have no idea what were Kishis exact reasons for host being unable to use TBB outside BM but i know what he said.
> ...


Dude the reason he says a host can’t do it, is because it’s impossible without Bijuu Mode. The second statement explains the first. Not sure what your not getting about this.
—-
Even if the skill is instinctual it’s still a skill that can be learned. The reason your unable to come up with a real reason why the Jin could t learn it but Bijuu can (even if the power is the same) is that there isn’t a logical one that exists and your just refusing to concede the point


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Dude the reason he says a host can’t do it, is because it’s impossible without Bijuu Mode. The second statement explains the first. Not sure what your not getting about this.


Yes and kn4 did it only cause the host wasnt casting TBB,Kurama was.
Not sure what you dont understand.


Turrin said:


> Even if the skill is instinctual it’s still a skill that can be learned. The reason your unable to come up with a real reason why the Jin could t learn it but Bijuu can (even if the power is the same) is that there isn’t a logical one that exists and your just refusing to concede the point


Like i said it proly isnt "skill" at all,its something that comes to them naturally.They didnt learn it,they could just do it.
Thats is a big posibility and it goes with what has been explained to us in the manga.
Lol dude if someone is born with an unique 
singing voice,for example,you think that can be learned?
Youre the one being stubborn and saying everyone can just learn everything if they try hard enough.
Like what kind of bullshit is that??
Im gonna be an opera singer tomorrow now that i know this...
Manga told us why kn4 was able to use TBB.
You may not like it but thats your problem.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Yes and kn4 did it only cause the host wasnt casting TBB,Kurama was.
> Not sure what you dont understand.
> 
> Like i said it proly isnt "skill" at all,its something that comes to them naturally.They didnt learn it,they could just do it.
> ...


1) If it was an issue of the host lacking the necessary skill he wont say it’s possible with BM, he would just say it’s impossible for the host period. So the issue is BM not the host.

2) Even if something comes naturally to someone it’s still a skill. So this is just wrong.


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## Asura barracuda (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) If it was an issue of the host lacking the necessary skill he wont say it’s possible with BM, he would just say it’s impossible for the host period. So the issue is BM not the host.
> 
> 2) Even if something comes naturally to someone it’s still a skill. So this is just wrong.



Yes, and just because it's a skill doesn't mean it can be learnt. It's Also not a skill, it's a fucking affinity of the tailed beast. It's damn consistently portrayed as one.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> If it was an issue of the host lacking the necessary skill he wont say it’s possible with BM, he would just say it’s impossible for the host period. So the issue is BM not the host.


Being said its impossible for a host outside of BM and us seeing kn4 did it,but knowing host did not do it but a biju did,means just that.
Host can not do it outside of BM but biju can.





Turrin said:


> Even if something comes naturally to someone it’s still a skill. So this is just wrong.


Wow now this is some first class denial.
Im sure you could just learn to paint like Picasso if only you try hard enough...
Some skills you just cant learn,you have to be born with them.

Manga told us the reason but im refusing to concede cause im agreeing with it,sure...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

@Turrin i agree with a lot of your opinions about this manga and i like some of your theories,i think theyre very cool,but this is ridiculous.
Saying you can just learn all and every skill if only you try hard enough.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> and KN4 is around half that so it would be >= 2-Bijuu (roughly)



Do we know for certain KN modes are linearly via 1/9, like you assume? You have proof for this? Couldn't it be like exponentially or any other nonlinear increasing slope?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Term host refers to a person who has a biju sealed in them.
> If a biju is in control than host is not using any tehniques,biju is.
> It was pretty clear,a host,shinobi,can not cast TBB outside of BM but a biju can as thats what was shown to us.
> Yes general rules is host cant use it outise BM but biju can.
> ...


I have said all I needed to say on this. No need to go in circles. Read my post again and everything is clear.

Here are the scans you asked for:
Naruto using biju bomb with kcm: 
Statement on juubito. "*IT* was just throwing its power around, but now *it* has learnt to focus it":


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## Danisor (Feb 19, 2022)

Outside of Bijudama which is this Naruto's best offense, there's nothing new that V2 Bee can't deal with.

Just because Kyuubi is hilariously above the rest Bijuu, it doesn't mean some motionless angry mini fox is suddenly better than a Perfect Jinchuriki.

Sick Orochimaru was tagging him. You're telling me V2 Bee is going to have massive issues with this Naruto?


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## Danisor (Feb 19, 2022)

Shazam said:


> naruto without a shred of doubt. You would have to play a lot of mental gymnastics to say otherwise


You would have to play a lot of mental gymnastics to say KN4 Naruto is beating a Perfect Jinchuriki when it wasn't even shown to move during the fight against Oro and was even tagged.

How about you admit why you and the rest of the J-Man stans back up Naruto? We all still remember how he was almost killed by KN4 Naruto

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Do we know for certain KN modes are linearly via 1/9, like you assume? You have proof for this? Couldn't it be like exponentially or any other nonlinear increasing slope?


There is little reason to assume an exponential increase rather then a Linear one. But even if you wanted to argue that I would just argue that Kyuubi is even vastly above the 9 Bijuu then off Kishi’s interview comment. So ultimately what this comes down to is KN4 has vastly superior chakra feats to anyV2 Jin


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Being said its impossible for a host outside of BM and us seeing kn4 did it,but knowing host did not do it but a biju did,means just that.
> Host can not do it outside of BM but biju can.
> Wow now this is some first class denial.
> Im sure you could just learn to paint like Picasso if only you try hard enough...
> ...


Why would a host be able to do it in BM and not V2.
—-
This is a false equivalency. Saying not everyone can paint like Picasso, just means not everyone can master that skill; it does not however mean mastering that skill is impossible, as some people can still achieve that skill level even if it’s only a select few. C


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## Gulash (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Why would a host be able to do it in BM and not V2.


Cause Kishi said so...
I dont know his thought process on this but its what he said.
Maybe being in full BM bridges some gaps.
If you posses Pavarottis body maybe you could sing like him i dunno.





Turrin said:


> This is a false equivalency. Saying not everyone can paint like Picasso, just means not everyone can master that skill; it does not however mean mastering that skill is impossible, as some people can still achieve that skill level even if it’s only a select few. C


I cant just even...
Its not something you can master dude,its something you have or you dont.
Sure you can became better with training but some people are just born with special skills,talents,call them however you want,and no amount of learning is gonna get you there.
You cant just decide to train your voice and expect to be able to sing opera and hit F#8 notes.


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## Djyc21215 (Feb 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> You would have to play a lot of mental gymnastics to say KN4 Naruto is beating a Perfect Jinchuriki when it wasn't even shown to move during the fight against Oro and was even tagged.
> 
> How about you admit why you and the rest of the J-Man stans back up Naruto? We all still remember how he was almost killed by KN4 Naruto


It Depends. Is Bijuu-dama > Amaterasu? Or is Amaterasu > Bijuu-dama?

If it's the former, then we already have a very good argument as to why Kn4 Naruto/Kurama > V2 Bee, as Bijuu-mode Bee was beaten by Amaterasu.


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## Symmetry (Feb 19, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> My only contention is that he couldn't have cleanly dodged the Eiso outside of OR


He doesn’t even dodge the eiso with OR

If he had the mobility I’m sure he could have dodged it but he doesn’t, he just finished having a massive coughing fit and can at stand 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> So going by that, the best you can argue is that DB Oro is low-end relative to CM1 Sasuke when he is faced with an attack that was launched from a good distance away and needs OR to evade point-blank attacks.


The attack was five metres away as that’s the range of the eiso, AND it was a surprise attack Orochimaru wasn’t expecting as he didn’t even know Sasuke was there

DB Oro being relative to a surprise attack from CS1 Sasuke just five metres away is impressive as hell

He needs OR to evade point blank attacks because he physically can’t move in his human body, he is unable to stand lol. However DB Oro has the mental and jutsu reactions to cleanly contend with CS1 Sasuke 





ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> There is no evidence Sasuke was mentally blitzed by the Oral Rebirth, in fact, he even displays an exclamation mark:


It does, but this is shown at a time when Orochimaru’s true form is already behind him a little, showing he got the exclamation point AFTER Orochimaru has travelled a great distance 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> So explain to me this, if Orochimaru not only can physically blitz but also mentally blitz Sasuke like you are saying with OR


In cqc only, extreme cqc at that



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> then why didn't he just launch himself into Sasuke when he used it on his bed and instead jumped out?


Does Orochimaru know with certainty that he’ll hit Sasuke? He isn’t fast enough to blitz him normally the surprise factor of the OR did most of the work there, Orochimaru doesn’t know that and it makes more sense do put some distance first 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Snake stitching may potentially cost less chakra, but he remains vulnerable to follow-up attacks until his body stitches itself back.


However he was right to use snake stitching as he was not attacked, so he could likely tell he’d be safe to do so.

That just speaks to how confident Orochimaru is in being able to dodge Kn4 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> He even used Oral Rebirth earlier on to evade an attack from KN4 shortly before he got bisected, implying that he wasn't planning on eating a direct hit.


Firstly he stopped the attack with a snake first, and secondly that chakra arm was larger than his entire body, he legit couldn’t regen from a giant hand bigger than himself slamming on him, he’d have died from that one 

Bisection, however, not so much



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> The Itachi example I agree with, but you have to take into consideration that Itachi thought Kabuto collapsed for good and let his guard down.
> 
> In fact, Kabuto played dead for that surprise attack.


Fair enough, I’m sure that adds something to it, but as you agreed, surprise was still a main factor. And honestly, sprouting a new body and playing dead into a sudden attack is honestly on the same level 



ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> The panel, if I may ask?




Again, she acted dead, however if she sprouted a whole new body the second Madara hit her I’d imagine the same effect would be present


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## Leaf Hurricane (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Yes 4-Tails is mad underrated on the Forum simply because Jiriaya “beat” it somehow


4 tails is getting over rated by some because Jiraiya almost died to it and orochimaru got bitch slapped by it  .


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## Symmetry (Feb 19, 2022)

Danisor said:


> Sick Orochimaru was tagging him


This is circular logic 

Kn4 must be slow because Sick Orochimaru tagged him and sick Orochimaru must be slow because Kn4 tagged him 

This version of Orochimaru has no other fights and so you can’t use him to downplay Kn4 as he has no relative anti feats with any other character to compare with 

Common sense dictates Kn4 and V2 Bee are close though, the kyubi gap is immense


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## Symmetry (Feb 19, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Why would people use "kurama" > "gyuuki" while this is 4 tails kurama in V2 versus 8 tails gyuuki in V2.


Because the gap in Kurama’s chakra and Gyuki’s should make up for the difference in tails 

At least it should bridge the gap and make them relative, AT MINIMUM in the same tier

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Monarch (Feb 19, 2022)

Turrin said:


> 1) I’m not saying TBB isn’t more difficult then Rasengan; I’m asking you why it would be easier to be able to control a large quantity of chakra for a large TBB in BM then a smaller quantity of chakra in V2.


Most likely because the Bijuu is in a limited transformation and isn't able to make use of its full power, and as such, that may include the chakra control necessary to use TBB.

Kurama having better chakra control than other Bijuu is why he can conjure TBBs in a limited form like V2, whereas other Bijuu cannot. But he can't demonstrate the full extent of control in V2 seeing as he can't rapid-fire TBB in V2 forms as he can in BM, which supports my point.

Again, the only you can argue KN4 can fire TBBs solely based on his chakra is if you believe he has access to significantly more chakra than V2 Bee has, which isn't likely due to V2 Bee having 8 tails, while KN4 has 4, twice as less. So it's even possible that V2 Bee has access to more chakra than KN4, which falls in line with his superior physicals.

You'll probably repeat the 50% Kurama >>>> Gyuki point, but you'd have to prove Kurama has more than 3 times as much chakra than Gyuki has by providing tangible evidence since I can also argue that it's a matter of chakra potency, not volume necessarily.


Turrin said:


> And I’m not conceding anything because I’m debunking your premise that there is a gap in physicals.


You didn't debunk it so far.

I ask again, how is failing to dodge Sick Orochimaru's punch compared to Bee overpowering V2 A4's massively faster and stronger blow in base? Let alone getting a V2 buff on top of that base?


Turrin said:


> 2) Now your argument that Tendou is slower is based on the presupposition that SM Naruto is slower, which is based on what exactly?


Sage Mode Naruto being physically slower than KCM 1 Naruto, who was keeping up in speed with V1 A4 whom V1 Bee is physically relative to, and V2 Bee is even faster.


Turrin said:


> 3) OM were talking about piercing attacks though not blunt force. I showed you a direct example of how Hachibi could not rank piercing attacks while a weaker Bijuu’s V2 Shroud can. Shifting the goal post to talk about blunt force attacks like TBB is not addressing or acknowledging that the shrouds have shown better piercing attack resistance. So literally nothing you said actually addresses this point.


Yes, the shrouds have better piercing durability resistance, I never argued against that, but how is this relevant when we go back to your Enma, Kusanagi, A3, and KN4 comparison?

You argued Enma is more durable than A3 who can tank KCM FRSs stronger than SM FRSs that visibly damaged 50% Kurama, you then compared KN4 with Enma to an extent using their Kusanagi interactions... Your premise scales KN4 above 50% Kurama in overall durability, that's where my problem lies.

Sure, KN4 may potentially display better resistance against piercing damage than 50% Kurama, but the latter is overall more durable, and since even the superior KN6 was damaged by weaker attacks than TBBs and KCM FRSs, the KN4 to Enma and A3 scaling based on Kusanagi doesn't work. Not that we know if the force Orochimaru was able to exert on his Kusanagi blade compares to the one Enma was hit with by the blade either.

Now moving on to the piercing durability aspect, the strongest piercing attack these V2 shrouds tanked by feats was Raikiri, which I'm pretty sure is weaker than V2 A4's chop as the latter can bust through a ribcage Susanoo whereas the former has no feats on that scale... And V2 Bee's attacks are even more powerful than A4 if Bee was able to overpower V2 A4 in base.


Turrin said:


> 4) I interpret Naruto being much stronger now that he has KCM because KCM doesn’t have as short of a time-limit as SM and has more chakra then S; not that it has greater raw chakra potency especially when using the same level of FRS (as when FRS levels up it usually becomes Oddoma or Chou Oddoma). So unless you can specially prove that Statement means potency then I don’t think your premise holds any weight


KCM 1 Kurama's chakra is more potent than the boost Base Naruto gets from Sage Mode, so it stands to reason that his techniques are going to be stronger due to running on stronger chakra.


Turrin said:


> 5/6) What I’m saying is it doesn’t matter if Orochimaru who fought Sasuke is weaker or stronger then the one at the end of the KN4 fight; all that matters is that during the fight with KN4 Orochimaru was stronger then when he fought CM1 Sasuke and therefore scales higher then CM1 Sasuke.


I agree with this if this was your original point.

The problem is that you can't quantify how much weaker Orochimaru got, and above all, CM 1 Sasuke was finessing him despite his gargantuan size giving him a tiny amount of space to operate in a confined room. And needed the fastest Oral Rebirth of his life just to not get decapitated.


Turrin said:


> 7) We can finish it on discord, but just know I’m not accepting any scaling that ignores the properties of Flickr we discussed as legitimate
> 
> 8)  It’s literally Samehada that’s moving there, otherwise show me where Kisame himself reacted to V1 B


He is shown raising his sword just as V1 Bee approached him:


But gets overpowered and near-physically blitzed by V2 Bee:


In contrast, Kisame easily sends back V1 Bee like a bug:



Furthermore... I don't believe it matters whether Kisame or Samehada moved. Seeing as if it was Samehada who moved and not Kisame, then Samehada casually reacted and overpowered V1 Bee, and Samehada was physically blitzed and overpowered by V2 Bee.

If you don't believe Kisame was directly amped by Gyuki's chakra and that chakra was only present in Samehada, *then again, Samehada got physically blitzed and overpowered by V2 Bee in spite of being amped by almost 2 V1 Gyuki cloaks worth of chakra...*

So it's downright impossible to argue that the gap between V1 and V2 isn't massive seeing as almost even 2 V1 cloaks worth of chakra are physical blitz material for V2.


Turrin said:


> 9)Kisame prior to be hit by Aoba absorbed all of B’s chakra to the point B collapsed after one partial transformation. In contrast Kisame wasn’t amped by V1 when hit by V2, that chakra was still in Samehada.


I disagree, based on what Aoba is saying about Samehada:


I don't see why Samehada wouldn't transfer the chakra stolen from Bee into Kisame given that he already got injured from Aoba's Raiton Kunai, Kisame's own statement about himself which asserts that the stronger his opponent is, the stronger _*he himself *_gets, which falls in line with him stealing his enemies chakra ( the source of theirpower ) through Samehada and using that power to amp himself, therefore becoming just as strong as his opponent...

Not to mention that Kisame was facing the 2nd strongest Bijuu Jin who was spamming V1 physical amps, then Kisame resisting, and overpowering V1 Bee with his strength made perfect sense after he stole a V1 cloak, which amped his physicals to be on par or above those of V1 Bee.

This interpretation and the author's depiction of the fight are very consistent with Kisame's statement.


Turrin said:


> —-
> Saying characters with great durability have been harmed by piercing weapons also applies to Lariate which is a piercing weapon. Please stop tying to ignore the fact that these are all the same type of attacks.


Lariat doesn't cover the same surface area a kunai does, and V2 Bee literally uses Gyuki's skull to ram his opponents with:


This to me looks more like a blunt damage attack.


Turrin said:


> 10) I already told you OM. 3T FKS Sasuke is slower then 3T CM Sasuke who KN4 fight Orochimaru scales above, as a weaker Orochimaru was evading CM1 Sasuke, and 3T FKs Sasuke could tag A4’s physical speed. V2 does not offer a significant physical speed amp, we know this since Base-B kept up with V1 and V2 A4; the only significant speed amp comes from V2 A4 reflexes being higher and allowing him to use flicker quicker, which he did not use against Base-B.


1. There is 0 evidence 3T FKS is slower than 3T CM Sasuke by that point Turrin, and everything points towards him being at least as fast, if not even faster.

3T FKS Sasuke is no longer injured and has greater or at least equal chakra potency to CM1 by virtue of having awakened MS and V1 ribcage Susanoo, chakra potency that sent chills down Karin's spine.

You'll probably bring up Obito's statement about Sasuke surpassing Curse Mark by the time he awakened V3 Susanoo, but that statement applies to the last stage of Curse Mark, that being Curse Mark 2. And for all we know, 3T FKS Sasuke could even be above Curse Mark 1, but just a tiny bit below Curse Mark 2, or even equal to Curse Mark 2 as that doesn't contradict the statement about Sasuke surpassing Curse Mark 2.

And it's impossible for you to prove if he is below Curse Mark 1 as Obito only says that he surpassed Curse Mark as a whole, meaning both of its stages.

2. I've already told you that Orochimaru could only evade him using Oral Rebirth and that after that he got finessed and physically blitzed despite occupying an immense amount of space in a very confined room, so that feat of his Serpent Form hardly paints Deathbed Orochimaru as relative to CM1 Sasuke, outside of Oral Rebirth that is. And the FKS Sasuke that finesses V1 A4 is potentially faster than that Sasuke too.

All and all, you can probably argue that KN4 Orochimaru can exhibit a physical reaction to V1 A4 taking all things into consideration, but that hardly helps KN4 seeing as Base Bee can already physically keep up with and overpower a much faster V2 A4, and slapping a V2 amount of chakra on him which makes a massive difference from V1, let alone Base, further cements the fact that V2 Bee's physicals are going to be a nightmare for KN4.

So the Orochimaru who tagged KN4 is blitz material for V2 Bee, which by default also makes KN4 blitz material for V2 Bee.

And that either means the gap between Gyuki and 50% Kurama is smaller than the gap between Base Naruto and Base Bee, or that Bee has more access to Gyuki's chakra than Naruto has access to Kurama's chakra in KN4, which isn't necessarily wrong to assert as V2 Bee has 8 tails whereas KN4 has 4 tails.

3. Base Bee being able to keep up with V2 A4 is his own feat, not anti-feat for A4, and definitely not an anti-feat that invalidates the gap between V1 and V2 A4. Especially when V2 A4 is strong enough to remove Gyuki's horn with a chop and fast enough to almost perception blitz MS Sasuke's reactions from where he was getting finessed in V1.


Turrin said:


> So essentially we have Orochimaru >> 3T FKS Sasuke =~ V1/2 A4 (non flicker), which is the one Base-B intercepted.


See above.


Turrin said:


> 11) Dude the Sasuke B faced was nerfed weaker then the one BoS Naruto faced. Sasuke also used flicker against Naruto when he perception blitz’d him which he didn’t use against B. So Sasuke had two major speed debuffs against B (Injured and Didn’t use flicker). And I already explained the Raikage stuff above.


1. Can't see how Sasuke's flicker would have helped him against Bee when the latter can at least physically react to faster V1 flickers and was dominating him in CQC.

2. Sasuke's injuries did affect his physicals, although to what extent remains unknown as that can't be quantified and I doubt it was substantial given that those injuries healed by the time of FKS and considering that same injured Sasuke could somewhat keep up with a faster opponent than the ones he faced before. But that isn't my primary concern... I'm more so illustrating the gap between Base Bee and Base Naruto by showcasing how Base Naruto was neg diffed by a mere D-rank jutsu while Base Bee was casually beating the shit out of Taka who collectively scale above BoS Sasuke been while fooling around.

To me, that appears as a large gap in portrayal between their 2 Base forms.


Turrin said:


> 12) I don’t think Gyuuki has any feats even remotely in the realm of Outspeeding SM Naruto. But also idk why your trying to shift the goal post to making this totally about speed; as Kurama is way stronger then Gyuuki for reasons outside of speed primarily.


Because speed and strength are proportionally amped by chakra with tailed beast transformations, with the only exception being KCM which seems to amp speed more than it amps other stats.

If Base Bee's stats are 50 speed, 90 strength, and V2 offers a boost of 500.

Then his V2 stats are going to be 550 speed and 590 strength.

If you think that the gap between Naruto's and Bee's base forms isn't so big, and KN4 is a way better boost than Gyuki's V2, then KN4 should have at least displayed better speed than V2 Bee, and strength too.

Instead, we see him punched and pushed back by Orochimaru's punch while Bee in Base overpowers a massively stronger V2 A4 lariat, which hits several tiers harder than Orochimaru's punch. Especially when his V2 strength can fuck up ribcage Susanoos and chop Gyuki's horn, and you are also calling lariat a piercing attack too...

If he can resist that attack in base without his arm falling off and even overpowers it, imagine the power output he musters in V2. It's surely going to be massively above KN4 given that even Base Bee outperformed KN4 physically...

And what feats does SM Naruto have that would put him over V2 Bee in speed?


Turrin said:


> 13) He wasn’t forced to block every time he literally was going to use a Jutsu before B took over. He was blocking and just trying to dash his way through because he wasn’t trying to seriously fight the Raikage. Come on now let’s not dip into dishonestly OM.


He looked very pressured by his punches given that he was pushed back a very significant distance by them and even commented about their power.

And besides, V2 A4 hits hard enough to chop off Gyuki's horn and crack a ribcage Susanoo, whereas KCM 1 Naruto's Yellow Flash flicker amped punch couldn't kill or maim an anorexic Kisame, who is indeed very durable but I very much doubt he is more durable than Gyuki's horn or Sasuke's ribcage Susanoo.

So I literally don't see how KCM 1 Naruto would overpower V2 A4 in a lariat..


Turrin said:


> OM KCM Naruto on the last bit of his chakra was holding back the Jaws of the Yonbi. What feat does Raikage have anywhere near that in physical strength.


Cutting off Gyuki's horn with his chop.


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## Speedyamell (Feb 19, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> I have said all I needed to say on this. No need to go in circles. Read my post again and everything is clear.
> 
> Here are the scans you asked for:
> Naruto using biju bomb with kcm:
> Statement on juubito. "*IT* was just throwing its power around, but now *it* has learnt to focus it":


These ninjas literally removed my images and then posted this shit.. the whole point of the post were the scans....
Lemme see if links would work




@Gulash


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## Itachi x Tenten (Feb 19, 2022)

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask
only issue for me is that i personally believe that the Bijuu's power is so astronomically high that i dont think characters' 'base' forms would have as much affect on the V2 stage as stated here. if that were the case, then Jiraiya who faced a literal P1 KN4 Naruto should of fodderstomped, or atleast performed better than a deathbed Orochimaru who fought a BoS KN4 Naruto.

since P1 Naruto is drastically weaker than BoS Naruto, the differences in the two KN4 forms should have been drastically different, but arguably on paper they werent if both base Sannin had somewhat trouble of fighting them.


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> I have said all I needed to say on this. No need to go in circles. Read my post again and everything is clear.
> 
> Here are the scans you asked for:
> Naruto using biju bomb with kcm:
> Statement on juubito. "*IT* was just throwing its power around, but now *it* has learnt to focus it":


Manga also said it and its clear.

Cant see your scans.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Feb 20, 2022)

kisame > v2 b > kn4 > any sannin

in head to head, v2 beats kn4 by all feats except for TBB, but with speed he would just lariat him while he's charging it

anyway, you'll never see the sanninbanders who argue for KN4 here because of his firepower argue that deidara beats any of the sannin despite him having bigger firepower than all of them combined

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> These ninjas literally removed my images and then posted this shit.. the whole point of the post were the scans....
> Lemme see if links would work
> 
> 
> ...


Thats not full fledged TBB...

You could be right about second scan though but still be refers jubito as "he" while gyuki says "it".


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> These ninjas literally removed my images and then posted this shit.. the whole point of the post were the scans....
> Lemme see if links would work
> 
> 
> ...


And everything still goes with whats was said in the manga.
If Naruto was in control when KN4 used TBB than you would be right.
Bijus didnt learn TBB like Naruto did rasengan,they perform it on instinct.
Thats why KN4 did,cause Kurama was firing TBB.

Its perfectly reasonable to think KN4> V2 Bee but to say that KN4 is faster,physicaly stronger more durable etc. just cause it used TBB is wrong.


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## Speedyamell (Feb 20, 2022)

They finally let my scans through


Gulash said:


> Thats not full fledged TBB...


What do you mean lmao. It is still tbb... not much different from that of kn4


Gulash said:


> You could be right about second scan though but still be refers jubito as "he" while gyuki says "it".


Yeah, and gyuki is the more I formed of the two


Gulash said:


> And everything still goes with whats was said in the manga.
> If Naruto was in control when KN4 used TBB than you would be right.
> Bijus didnt learn TBB like Naruto did rasengan,they perform it on instinct.
> Thats why KN4 did,cause Kurama was firing TBB.
> Its perfectly reasonable to think KN4> V2 Bee but to say that KN4 is faster,physicaly stronger more durable etc. just cause it used TBB is wrong.


Huh..? Didn't I just show you naruto himself using tbb?

Tbb is not the only reason. I don't think I ever said that. That's just one of the indicators that kn4 is stronger. There's also kyubi stronger chakra, as well as the already mentioned much better feats so yeah


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> What do you mean lmao. It is still tbb... not much different from that of kn4


Its not.It even has a different name.


Speedyamell said:


> Yeah, and gyuki is the more I formed of the two


Gyuki is witnessing this for the first time too as far as we know.





Speedyamell said:


> Huh..? Didn't I just show you naruto himself using tbb?
> 
> Tbb is not the only reason. I don't think I ever said that. That's just one of the indicators that kn4 is stronger. There's also kyubi stronger chakra, as well as the already mentioned much better feats so yeah


No its not the same.
I never said you did im just saying thats not the indicator at all.
You could be right about other point though.


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Cause Kishi said so...
> I dont know his thought process on this but its what he said.
> Maybe being in full BM bridges some gaps.
> If you posses Pavarottis body maybe you could sing like him i dunno.
> ...


If you can’t even articulate a reason why then I don’t need to entertain your argument anymore

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Most likely because the Bijuu is in a limited transformation and isn't able to make use of its full power, and as such, that may include the chakra control necessary to use TBB.
> 
> Kurama having better chakra control than other Bijuu is why he can conjure TBBs in a limited form like V2, whereas other Bijuu cannot. But he can't demonstrate the full extent of control in V2 seeing as he can't rapid-fire TBB in V2 forms as he can in BM, which supports my point.
> 
> ...


1) Even if a Bijuu’s control was lower in V2 (which you have no proof of); the Bijuu would still be proportionally having to control less chakra, therefore requiring less skill anyway, so this wouldn’t matter.
—-
As far as Kyuubi’s chakra goes we are told it required all 8 other Bijuu to balance Kurama’s chakra in the GM statue. We are also told by Kishi that the 9-Tails likely has way more then x9 the chakra of the 1-Tails:


And KN4 has way better feats of chakra quantity then V2 B with its massive shockwaves and TBB. At a certain point the burden of proof is on you to show some level of evidence that places V2 B chakra anywhere near even KN4 OM, otherwise your not being fair at all in this discussion.

2) SM Naruto is faster then KCM1 outside of flicker; we saw this directly against A3. Where SM Naruto could tag A3 before A3 could react but A3 could react to KCM1 Naruto’s attacks.

3) OM you have lost track of the conversation here. I said KN4 has shown better durability feats then V2 B since it tanked Ksunagi. You said that B could tank Ksunagi too since other V2 Shrouds tanked Raikiri. I asked you for evidence for why Raikiri is superior in piercing power to something like Oro’s Ksunagi which can cut Diamonds. You asked how strong Diamond is and I pointed out how Kishi clearly considers it above A3 “steel” body which could rank FRS (another piercing attack). Then you went off about how if Diamond is stronger then A3 this would make KN4 more durable then Kurama which you don’t agree with since Bijuu can tank TBB. I said that has nothing to do with piercing damage and gave you the Hachibi example as well as highlighted how FRS didn’t even pierce Kurama anyway, and now your still on this shifted goal post point of Blunt damage which has nothing to do with what we were talking about….

The point here being what piercing feats does Raikiri have that place it on the same level Cutting Diamond level durability. As we are comparing piercing weapons; Raikiri and Ksunagi.

4) OM your just repeating your premise, that KCM has more potent chakra not offering any real evidence. So again what evidence is there that KCM has more potent chakra, that isn’t just Naruto claiming he is stronger post KCM, which I already explained is open to interpretation.

5) Orochimaru was literally on his death-bed needing Rank 10 Medicine when Sasuke fought him. There is no reason to assume Orochimaru was anywhere close to that weakened against KN4 when you have provided zero evidence of such. This is your burden to prove not mine.

And if cutting down Oro’s snakes counts as finessing him, then KN4 did the same thing, so stop with the double standard OM.

6) OM Kisame is literally holding Samehada up before B even charges him (so he did not do it in reaction to B’s charge):

Also literally in the page you posted Sabo says “the blade” dodged him, which means the blade was the one moving in response to B, not Kisame himself.

Finally B did not blitz Samehada ether, as Samehada had already moved in-front of Kisame to defend him before Lariate landed:

So please show me where exactly this blitz occurs ever… 

7) OM this doesn’t even matter because Kisame has chakra stolen from B when Aoba hits him with his Kunai as well. So even if Samehada did transfer some chakra to Kisame before V2 Lariate (which you have zero evidence of) this still wouldn’t mean Kisame durability would be higher then when he had nearly all of B’s chakra against Aoba and still got pierced by Aoba’s Kunai. And it’s fucking Aoba OM.

Plus  we literally have seen Hachibi pierced by a large then normal Shuriken from Obito; so at best Lariate is scaled to a large then normal Shuriken even if I grant you that he had all of Hachibi’s chakra (which we know he did not have for sure). So can you please stop this and just admit this isn’t a scalable feat by any means 

8) Dude stop; it’s literally the horns that hits the person and Kisame is clearly shown damaged as he would be by a piecing attack not blunt force. Please don’t dip into dishonesty to avoid conceding a point, thanks in advance.

9) Sasuke only exhibits the > CS chakra when using Genjutsu on C  and Susanoo V2. We know this as C literally only senses that chakra when he uses Genjutsu and V2; if he was physically amping himself with it C would have sensed it the entire battle. Also there is zero evidence an Uchiha can even amp themselves physically with their Dojutsu related chakra or use it for anything outside of their Dojutsu; it also directly contradicts the narrative that Uchiha are about the mental/spiritual/eyes aspect of the Sages power and not the physical like the Senju (if they Body Power increases proportionally with their Dojutsu chakra) as well.

So no there is zero evidence whatsoever that FKS Sasuke is faster then CM1 Sasuke, because even if I grant 3T FKS is marginally better then 3T Hebi Sasuke just due to experience gains, there is no reason to believe this would exceed CM1 Amp.
—-
And you seem to be trying to imply that Oral Rebirth is some speed amp to get out of admitting Oro was relative to CM1 Sasuke (which you gave zero evidence off)  , but I’m not going to even get into that argument because the only times Orochimaru is shown keeping up with KN4 is when he is spamming Oral Rebirth anyway; so even if it were a speed amp, he had the same amp against KN4 (but with a healthier body). So once again we get into you applying this double standard that KN4 speed is downgraded because Orochimaru could keep up with him while spamming Oral Rebirth, but somehow Sasuke’s isn’t.

Yeah I’m not moving forward with this point until you acknowledge that double standard.

10) Actually you know what OM even injured Sasuke *without* Sharingan activated was reacting to Base B‘s speed here:

What he had trouble with was B’s unpredictability. So this clearly scaled Base-B bellow Healthy 3T Sasuke (let alone when using his flicker).

Also I see zero evidence for Base-B reacting to V1 A4 flicker, this likely is again going to come back to you misinterpreting flicker imo, which is a point you said you wanted to discuss on discord again.

On-top of that I want to point out that flicker aside a lot of your scaling is based around this A4 and B encounter, while ignoring all other scaling presented in the manga that indicates the opposite, which to me seems like a bad way to scale as there were a-lot of mitigating factors in that fight. A4 obviously didn’t want to harm his brother and was narratively implied to be underestimating / not taking B seriously. B also had some stupid Will of Fire Mental amp bullshit going on there as initially his Lariate doesn’t even phase A4 until he starts talking about his will; and we know V1 A4 casually matched V1B previously 

So it just seems to me unfair to me that your ignoring everything else for this fairly obviously narratively driven bullshit feat.

11) OM if your going to argue a Bijuu’s Speed is proportional to their chakra then Kurama has way better chakra feats then Gyuuki, and therefore by your own logic would have way better speed. So I don’t see how this train of reasoning helps you at all.

12) Gyuuki horn was chopped off by a piercing chop, not blunt force; we have already talked about the difference here and you have acknowledge it, so please stop with these false equivalencies.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> If you can’t even articulate a reason why then I don’t need to entertain your argument anymore


Its cause Kishi said so in his own manga.Kishi>you.

I gave you a reason but it seems you would rather say silly things that everything can be learned than admit youre wrong.

You cant just decide to have opera voice or talent like Picasso.
You can became better with practice but that talent is something youre born with.
Being able to use TBB is something bijus are born with,so even in lower versions of themselves bijus can still use TBB while hosts can only replicate the same thing  in full BM.


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## Speedyamell (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Its not.It even has a different name.
> 
> Gyuki is witnessing this for the first time too as far as we know.
> No its not the same.
> ...


Dude pls. Kn4 didn't even name its tbb when he shot it
And gyuki never said, it's impossible to make "_regular tbb_" without bm, that's another thing you're making up. He simply said it was impossible period.. and when naruto tried it in front of him, he was gonna make a similar sized one, which is also around the same size as that of kn4. Let's try to accept when we are presented with facts
Naruto also acknowledges how he can finally use tbb with kcm when he does it too: ""


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> Its cause Kishi said so in his own manga.Kishi>you.
> 
> I gave you a reason but it seems you would rather say silly things that everything can be learned than admit youre wrong.
> 
> ...


Kishi said the issue is BM. Your claiming it’s another reason which you can’t articulate. So that’s your problem bud


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Dude pls. Kn4 didn't even name its tbb when he shot it
> And gyuki never said, it's impossible to make "_regular tbb_" without bm, that's another thing you're making up. He simply said it was impossible period.. and when naruto tried it in front of him, he was gonna make a similar sized one, which is also around the same size as that of kn4. Let's try to accept when we are presented with facts
> Naruto also acknowledges how he can finally use tbb with kcm when he does it too: ""


And what if he didnt?We can see what it is.
That mini shit is not TBB.
No he said it was impossible for a host outside BM.
Chapter 519.
No reason for me to make this up.
No he acknowledges he can use this mini shit which he wasnt able to do before.


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Kishi said the issue is BM. Your claiming it’s another reason which you can’t articulate. So that’s your problem bud


He said host cant use it in BM.
We see "host" is using it in KN4 but its actually Kurama who used it.
So bijus can use it outside BM.

Sorry buddy manga disagrees with you...


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## Speedyamell (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> And what if he didnt?We can see what it is.
> That mini shit is not TBB.
> No he said it was impossible for a host outside BM.
> Chapter 519.
> ...


Alright, we're done here

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> Dude pls. Kn4 didn't even name its tbb when he shot it
> And gyuki never said, it's impossible to make "_regular tbb_" without bm, that's another thing you're making up. He simply said it was impossible period.. and when naruto tried it in front of him, he was gonna make a similar sized one, which is also around the same size as that of kn4. Let's try to accept when we are presented with facts
> Naruto also acknowledges how he can finally use tbb with kcm when he does it too: ""


And you dont seem to get my point.
Naruto being able to do some nerfed version of TBB is just a testament to his skil.
KN4 didnt do it cause its that strong or cause its stronger than KCM Naruto,if you think it is.
KN4 was able to do it cause it was not host that did it,it was biju who was in control at that time.
So logically if Hachibi takes control in V2 it should be able to fire TBB.

Like i said i can get with the idea that kn4 is stronger but saying it has higher stats ONLY cause it used TBB is wrong.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Feb 20, 2022)

Now that I remember it, when Naruto uses the Chou Bijuu Rasenshuriken on Kaguya, all of the FRS has a unique element attached to it (sand for Shukaku, ink for Gyuki, etc) except one - *Kurama's*. That one is just a _Bijuudama_ Rasenshuriken.

It is completely possible that just as other Bijuus have perks relating to elemental abilities, Kurama's perk is his ability to use the Bijuudama far more competently and in ways the others cannot.

Not saying Kurama also isn't far stronger in general, but the Rasenshuriken Naruto used were all equal in size, implying that even at equal chakra levels, Kurama would have an innate advantage at using Bijuudama. Dude is just built that way  

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask @Code

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Speedyamell (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> And you dont seem to get my point.
> Naruto being able to do some nerfed version of TBB is just a testament to his skil.
> KN4 didnt do it cause its that strong or cause its stronger than KCM Naruto,if you think it is.
> KN4 was able to do it cause it was not host that did it,it was biju who was in control at that time.
> So logically if Hachibi takes control in V2 it should be able to fire TBB.


I don't know what you mean by nerfed version of tbb. Sure it's smaller than standard tbb size, but so is that of kn4 and even kn6.

8 tails didnt say naruto couldn’t do big tbb or that he could only do tiny tbb without bm, He simply said it was impossible, period.

And then you're arguing bee can do something he hasn't shown while actively ignoring stuff that is actually shown..
Naruto literally creates a biju bomb and calls it that and you're like "that little shit isn't biju bomb"

We can just agree to disagree on this at this point my friend


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Speedyamell said:


> I don't know what you mean by nerfed version of tbb. Sure it's smaller than standard tbb size, but so is that of kn4 and even kn6.
> 
> 8 tails didnt say naruto couldn’t do big tbb or that he could only do tiny tbb without bm, He simply said it was impossible, period.
> 
> ...


It literally has different name and it cant be fired like TBB.
Its like saying genin Naruto could do COR cause he could do rasengan.
Kn4 and kn6 did small TBB cause they are less powerfull than full kyubi,kcm naruto did a mini biju whatever.

Ye he said host cant do TBB without BM.
Naruto in kcm did not do TBB.

Yes cause we saw biju can do it outside BM.
He literally didnt do it and did not call it TBB.
He did mini super biju whatever.

Sure we can my friend .


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> He said host cant use it in BM.
> We see "host" is using it in KN4 but its actually Kurama who used it.
> So bijus can use it outside BM.
> 
> Sorry buddy manga disagrees with you...


Once again he does not say host he only says it’s impossible outside of BM. Your adding host to the text:


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## Gulash (Feb 20, 2022)

Turrin said:


> Once again he does not say host he only says it’s impossible outside of BM. Your adding host to the text:


And youre ignoring hachibi did say host just a few pages earlier.
Here hes talking to Naruto who is a host.

I know its manga for teens but not everything needs to spelled out for us...


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## Turrin (Feb 20, 2022)

Gulash said:


> And youre ignoring hachibi did say host just a few pages earlier.
> Here hes talking to Naruto who is a host.
> 
> I know its manga for teens but not everything needs to spelled out for us...


Yeah he said earlier it’s impossible for Jinchuuriki who can’t achieve BM; now he’s saying it’s just impossible without BM. That tells us Hachibi thinks you need BM.

If a Jinchuuriki could achieve TBB in V2 by letting his Bijuu take over then a Jinchuuriki wouldn’t need BM to achieve TBB, just the ability to give control to Bijuu.

I’ve explained this to you 13 times


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