# Melodias and Gowther vs KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke



## Dr. White (Apr 4, 2015)

Location: Some Random Mountain Range
Knowledge: None
Mindset: Ic, but serious and with killing intent.
Distance: 25M
Restrictions:  Sauce cannot use PS.

Please no spoilers, I haven't seen anything past the anime and am reading the manga from start now. 

Who takes this?


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## Iwandesu (Apr 4, 2015)

> Sasuke doesn't have PS



kcm is quite strong contender but both gowther and mel are more casual on the small city cqc and can somewhat defend or at least survive against FRS
they likely take this more times than not


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## Alita (Apr 4, 2015)

Haven't read NNT yet but from what calcs I've seen for both characters they have inferior dura and dc so unless they some sort of hax to make up for it then they likely lose here. Also, do they have anyway to deal with genjutsu?


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## MAPSK (Apr 4, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> Haven't read NNT yet but from what calcs I've seen for both characters they have inferior dura and dc so unless they some sort of hax to make up for it then they likely lose here. Also, do they have anyway to deal with genjutsu?



Uhhhh... Mel has counterhax and Gowther's mindrape is far more potent than anything Sasuke has shown, so they actually probably win mid-low diff.


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## Brightsteel (Apr 4, 2015)

Sauce without Perfect Sussano, would get floored instantly by a casual punch from these fuckers.

And mindrape hax from Growther would work wonders.....


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## Dr. White (Apr 4, 2015)

Restrictions for team Naruto have been lifted.


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## Vicotex (Apr 5, 2015)

Its a reverse rape in favor of team nardo


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Uhhhh... Mel has counterhax and Gowther's mindrape is far more potent than anything Sasuke has shown, so they actually probably win mid-low diff.


Mel's counter means jackshit against Naruto superior numbers. You can argue that Gowther can try and mindrape him, but Kyuubi is there for a reason and again Naruto superior numbers. Not to mention that Mel couldn't counter attacks that change direction something KCM Naruto can do as he throws the FRS using the chakra arm and change its course.

How is Gowther's illusion more potent than anything that Sasuke have shown? It's basically similar to genjutsu and one thing that Sasuke good is breaking a genjutsu, even Tsukuyomi casted by Itachi.

Team Naruto takes this comfortably.


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## Source (Apr 5, 2015)

Just started NNT yesterday but from what I know the NNT team is at a minor speed disadvantage against KCM Naruto and a pretty large firepower disadvantage (Pain arc SM Naruto's FRS was already solidly above them). Naruto can also spam clones who have the same firepower and speed as the original. With PS unrestricted they have no way of harming Sasuke (and Naruto, since he can camp in there while his clones fight) through conventional means.

So their hax will be their only chance here I think. Can't say much more than that as I still don't know exactly how it works.


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

Yeah. that's about it.
and don't start with KCM Naruto in the movie that shit is even stronger than the Rikudou Sage Mode Naruto. 

and Sasuke is irrelevant here. PS is just overkill. He just needs normal Susanoo which is on city level


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## Iwandesu (Apr 5, 2015)

Tir said:


> Yeah. that's about it.
> and don't start with KCM Naruto in the movie that shit is even stronger than the Rikudou Sage Mode Naruto.
> 
> and Sasuke is irrelevant here. PS is just overkill. *He just needs normal Susanoo which is on city level*


Wot?  Since when?


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

since it's more complete than Madara's very own when Madz was fighting Naruto and Gaara. That incomplete Susanoo was implied to be capable of tanking FRS. That's why Gaara took him out of it.

Heck, Sauce was capable of matching FRS output in order to combine it with Kagutsuchi. Basically, the amount of chakra he exerted to match FRS power should be on par with FRS.


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> Sauce was capable of matching FRS output in order to combine it with Kagutsuchi.



Er combining ability doesn't mean they are equal.... 

also nardo is the one who match the ability because he wants to strengthen Sauce fire affinity..

As shown with what he said in panel...

there's also the part where nardo match sauce blackflame combined with chidori, with a regular rasengan.


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## MAPSK (Apr 5, 2015)

Gowther's Rewrite Light >>>>> the Sauce.


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Er combining ability doesn't mean they are equal....


It is tho. In order for the flame not to be put off by the wind, Sasuke needs to make his fire as strong if not stronger than FRS. You know, the whole elements shenanigans thing. Basically, at the very least, his attacks have city level DC. 



shade0180 said:


> also nardo is the one who match the ability because he wants to strengthen Sauce fire affinity..


That's back when Naruto first found out about his affinity. I was talking their collaboration against Juubito. Sauce even told him that he'd match Naruto's FRS output using sharingan. 



shade0180 said:


> As shown with what he said in panel...


Which panel are you talking about shade? 



shade0180 said:


> there's also the part where nardo match sauce blackflame combined with chidori, with a regular rasengan.


When was it? 



> *MAPSK*
> Gowther's Rewrite Light >>>>> the Sauce.



Gowther's rewrit sure is impressive, but it is NLF to think it is capable of breaking Sauce's mind that can even push down Tsukuyomi. I mean, that shit only worked on Guila. Dreyfus? Nope~


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> It is tho. In order for the flame not to be put off by the wind, Sasuke needs to make his fire as strong if not stronger than FRS. You know, the whole elements shenanigans thing. Basically, at the very least, his attacks have city level DC.



can you post proof of this.. Because chakra elements works differently in real life elements..

you know the whole thing

Where 

Wind > lightning

Ligthning > Earth

Fire > Wind

A concept chakra based element introduced. 

So here's the link



anyway there's nothing here about making attacks equal just combining them and elemental compatibility...





> Which panel are you talking about shade?



Panels before they threw their combined attack on the Juubi.



> When was it?



Final fight between nardo and sauce.


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

Some dude told me NNT guys where casual small city busters. Maybe it was later on in the manga (don't spoil me) but if that's true and they do get MHS speed/reactions from Mel dodging Gil's thunder, I think it will be a good fight.

No movie KCM Naruto


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> can you post proof of this.. Because chakra elements works differently in real life elements..





> However, if one of the techniques had more chakra put into it, it would overcome the other technique. Not only that, but the stronger technique would absorb the weaker one, and the user of the weaker technique would receive more damage than the original amount, as he will have added to the technique.



You can find the reference in Naruto training his wind nature chakra. It's hard to find the old scan nowadays, what's with licensing and all. So this is the best I can find for you. 




> you know the whole thing
> 
> Where
> 
> ...



Sure but if that's the case then how the hell did Kakuzu's fire overpowered Kakashi's water wall?
Like I said, even if the fire is weaker than water but if it's stronger than it will overpower the water. 



> Panels before they threw their combined attack on the Juubi.



Nah, see this. 





> Final fight between nardo and sauce.


Yin and Yang release also play there 



> Some dude told me NNT guys where casual small city busters. Maybe it was later on in the manga (don't spoil me) but if that's true and they do get MHS speed/reactions from Mel dodging Gil's thunder, I think it will be a good fight.



magical lightning~
OP, Naruto, FT have been dodging lightning, laser, light speed attack for a while now. 



> No movie KCM Naruto


it's canon tho


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> Yin and Yang release also play there



nope it didn't... I just edited my post with the links



> Nah, see this.



how did that translate to equal? 



> You can find the reference in Naruto training his wind nature chakra. It's hard to find the old scan nowadays, what's with licensing and all. So this is the best I can find for you.



This works when you are overpowering each others jutsu not when combining them


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

Tir said:


> magical lightning~
> OP, Naruto, FT have been dodging lightning, laser, light speed attack for a while now.


Gilthunder was using natural clouds as a conduit for his lightning attacks IIRC. 

Even Nami's Ceiling to floor lightning was mach 150+, I didn't see the calc Wandesu talked about but I generally assume they are atleast 150 +. Especially given the size of the cloud and distance.



> it's canon tho


It's my thread though


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## Iwandesu (Apr 5, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Some dude told me NNT guys where casual small city busters. Maybe it was later on in the manga (don't spoil me) but if that's true and they do get MHS speed/reactions from Mel dodging Gil's thunder, I think it will be a good fight.
> 
> No movie KCM Naruto


Nah, it is from ban and mel first arm wrestle in ten years that destroyed the castle and mountain they were In. (Episode 5 or so and about as casual as something can be)
Also diana using gideon against hellbram. (Not casual tho)
Then again i forgot it was sauce complete susanno the one doing things in the juubi fight which means it has at least city level firepower and gets the classic small city scalling.
so yeah sorry about that first post but PS is likely indeed overkill.


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

Okay PS banned, but clones remain sound good? Or are clones to hax too?


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## MAPSK (Apr 5, 2015)

Tir said:


> Gowther's rewrit sure is impressive, but it is NLF to think it is capable of breaking Sauce's mind that can even push down Tsukuyomi. I mean, that shit only worked on Guila. Dreyfus? Nope~



Rewrite Light has feats of working on far more people simultaneously than Tsukuyomi IIRC, meaning that it > Tsukuyomi in terms of potency. Sasuke being able to push down Tsukuyomi doesn't mean shit if it loses out to Rewrite Light to begin with.



Tir said:


> magical lightning~
> OP, Naruto, FT have been dodging lightning, laser, light speed attack for a while now.



Yes, they have. With very little backing up their claims of those things even remotely resembling ours. Gilthunder meanwhile channeled his attack through an actual storm cloud, which is one of the prime qualifiers for applying true lightning speed.


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> nope it didn't... I just edited my post with the links



Well shit. Naruto >>> Sauce now 



> how did that translate to equal?


Basically, in order to combine the two attacks kagutsuchi needs to be, at least, as strong as FRS. Because if isn't, FRS will put off the fire. 




> This works when you are overpowering each others jutsu not when combining them


overpowering just need to be > while combing needs to be =. See?




> Gilthunder was using natural clouds as a conduit for his lightning attacks IIRC.


Last I see, his lightning came from his sword. 



> Even Nami's Ceiling to floor lightning was mach 150+, I didn't see the calc Wandesu talked about but I generally assume they are atleast 150 +. Especially given the size of the cloud and distance.


The mechanics behing Nami's lightning is similar to how real life lightning is conducted. That being said, we should accept relativistic KHR now.


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## MAPSK (Apr 5, 2015)

Tir said:


> Last I see, his lightning came from his sword.





nope.avi


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> overpowering just need to be > while combing needs to be =. See?



nope, don't see it, the example was done for overpowering jutsu not combining them 

as for combining jutsu

We also have another example where chakra is not equal but had no problem combining jutsus...

ShikaInoCho. They just need to be compatible with each other

Kiba and Akamaru.


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

Tir said:


> The mechanics behing Nami's lightning is similar to how real life lightning is conducted. That being said, we should accept relativistic KHR now.



Here you can see them and Hawk even comments on the smell of rain, as he would naturally.

then you see him  using a swing of his sword.


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Okay PS banned, but clones remain sound good? Or are clones to hax too?


Clones are hax. Simple as that. 



MAPSK said:


> Rewrite Light has feats of working on far more people simultaneously than Tsukuyomi IIRC, meaning that it > Tsukuyomi in terms of potency. Sasuke being able to push down Tsukuyomi doesn't mean shit if it loses out to Rewrite Light to begin with.


Works only on fodders and superficial to boot. Will disappear once the target realize the inconsistency in their memories. So strong~ Stronger than Tsukuyomi that put Kakashi out for commission for at least a week. Yeah, sure. 

The one he used on Dreyfus seems to be more potent and yet it is similar to illusion in Naruto and we know naruto high-tiers can fight illusion down. 

edit: 





> nope.avi


well shit. Didn't remember that one 



> nope, don't see it, the example was done for overpowering jutsu not combining them
> 
> as for combining jutsu
> 
> ...


two different examples bro. InoShikaCho don't use elemental bullshit.


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> Well shit. Naruto >>> Sauce now



I've been saying this since part 1 fight happened.

 
Sauce hasn't shown he is  = BL naruto ( Nardo can clone himself 1000 times or more and the clone has = stats to nardo in everything)

All the fight between nardo and sauce has a limit of 4 clones... and their duty is practically use Naruto rendan on sauce every time... not out right pulverize him.


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## MAPSK (Apr 5, 2015)

Tir said:


> Clones are hax. Simple as that.



Not... really?



Tir said:


> Works only on fodders and superficial to boot. Will disappear once the target realize the inconsistency in their memories. So strong~ Stronger than Tsukuyomi that put Kakashi out for commission for at least a week. Yeah, sure.



Doesn't matter. Professor X mindfucks an entire planet of normal, non-superhuman people. Itachi mindfucks Goku, a solar system buster. Professor X's mindfuck is still > Itachi's mindfuck unless Goku has feats of having mental resilience equal to an entire planet (which he still doesn't, IIRC). Whether or not the ones mindfucked are fodder or not is irrelevant. If Tsukuyomi can't affect the same number of people or affect someone with feats of mindfuck resistance that can stand up to a technique that worked on a large number of people at once, then it <<<<<< Rewrite Light. Simple as that. 

tl;dr the Sauce spreads his bumflaps to welcome home his beloved Gowther-senpai only to realize far too late that he is about to receive an all too different kind of spear up his gaping rectum.



Tir said:


> The one he used on Dreyfus seems to be more potent and yet it is similar to illusion in Naruto and we know naruto high-tiers can fight illusion down.



Again, their numbers < NNT's numbers. Whether or not the ones affected by mindfuck are more powerful than a mook is ir-fucking-relevant.



Tir said:


> Yup, because when him, Hendri and that apprentice magician fought Mel in Liones, we see storm cloud every time he used the said lightning attack and not from his sword.



Did you even read the calc? Or look at the scan? The lightning timing feat comes from Mel countering one of Gilthunder's named techniques which uses cloud-to-ground lightning. Does that mean all of his attacks use cloud-to-ground lightning? No. Does it change the fact that Mel countered cloud-to-ground lightning in this one instance? Also no.


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Not... really?


I know.  but considering this condition? Might as well say yes. 



> Doesn't matter. Professor X mindfucks an entire planet of normal, non-superhuman people. Itachi mindfucks Goku, a solar system buster. Professor X's mindfuck is still > Itachi's mindfuck unless Goku has feats of having mental resilience equal to an entire planet (which he still doesn't, IIRC). Whether or not the ones mindfucked are fodder or not is irrelevant. If Tsukuyomi can't affect the same number of people or affect someone with feats of mindfuck resistance that can stand up to a technique that worked on a large number of people at once, then it <<<<<< Rewrite Light. Simple as that.
> 
> tl;dr the Sauce spreads his bumflaps to welcome home his beloved Gowther-senpai only to realize far too late that he is about to receive an all too different kind of spear up his gaping rectum.


Okay. Good enough, Gowther's invasion still can be dodged or blocked or whatever Diane did. 




> Did you even read the calc? Or look at the scan? The lightning timing feat comes from Mel countering one of Gilthunder's named techniques which uses cloud-to-ground lightning. Does that mean all of his attacks use cloud-to-ground lightning? No. Does it change the fact that Mel countered cloud-to-ground lightning in this one instance? Also no.


I edited my post.

On topic, Team Naruto still rapes Team Mel.


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> two different examples bro. InoShikaCho don't use elemental bullshit.



That still proves that the only thing you need to combine jutsu is compatibility..

And Nardo and Sauce are compatible.

And as I said before your example only works when two jutsu are fighting for dominance not combining..


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## Tir (Apr 5, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> That still proves that the only thing you need to combine jutsu is compatibility..
> 
> And Nardo and Sauce are compatible.
> 
> And as I said before your example only works when two jutsu are fighting for dominance not combining..



Compatibility is necessary but if the fire is too weak, the wind will snuff it. You can argue it is only if they are trying to overpower one another but the same thing will also happen if one of the element is weaker.


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## shade0180 (Apr 5, 2015)

> Compatibility is necessary but if the fire is too weak, the wind will snuff it




except there is no proof of that claim with combining jutsu.. 

Basically your case is different from where you want to apply it...

Combining jutsu doesn't work the same way as overpowering each others jutsu..

So your reasoning doesn't have a leg to stand on.

If your reasoning does work this shouldn't happened with this jutsu considering they are equal in strength they should have combined and ended up as 1 big jutsu..



not this giant explosion.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 5, 2015)

In regards to the whole mindfuck fiasco, even Itachi's regular Genjutsu's are regarded as more potent than the one Kabuto used on an entire stadium of people. Not sure if that changes anything, butmeh, whatever.

As for Amaterasu, isn't Sasuke's considered to be at least comparable to Itachi's which put down a boss summon that the FRS handily failed against?


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## AgentAAA (Apr 5, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> In regards to the whole mindfuck fiasco, even Itachi's regular Genjutsu's are regarded as more potent than the one Kabuto used on an entire stadium of people. Not sure if that changes anything, butmeh, whatever.
> 
> As for Amaterasu, isn't Sasuke's considered to be at least comparable to Itachi's which put down a boss summon that the FRS handily failed against?



nah. Itachi has feats of soloing galactus. the sauce can't scale to him


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

Amaterasu beat The Cerberus because it can't be put out, and it's so hot (burned fire, Toad Summon, made Gyuuki cry out in pain) it lol countered its regen. It's kinda hard to compare FRS and Amaterasu.

Sauce only has resistance to visual illusions. Tayuya's sound flut caught him slipping, which means all of Gowther's mind hax should fuck him over. Also Gowther's ability to rewrite the knights memory is akin to Kotoamatsuki but on a grand scale (as Mifune was able to be broken free when someone told him he was under control)Since I'm only in the anime I can't tell yet, but Gowther seems to be close to Merlin, and if he's magic based he should have really good Illusion defense. So i'd give him the edge in the illusion game.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 5, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Amaterasu beat The Cerberus because it can't be put out, and it's so hot (burned fire, Toad Summon, made Gyuuki cry out in pain) it lol countered its regen. It's kinda hard to compare FRS and Amaterasu.
> 
> Sauce only has resistance to visual illusions. Tayuya's sound flut caught him slipping, which means all of Gowther's mind hax should fuck him over. Also Gowther's ability to rewrite the knights memory is akin to Kotoamatsuki but on a grand scale (as Mifune was able to be broken free when someone told him he was under control)Since I'm only in the anime I can't tell yet, but Gowther seems to be close to Merlin, and if he's magic based he should have really good Illusion defense. So i'd give him the edge in the illusion game.


>implying a preskip 2 dots sharigan sauce feat has anything to do with ems sauce
even classic sakura was able to resist kabuto hundreds of peoples mindfuck
the notion of orochimaru not giving sauce anti genjutsu training on chunnin exam sakura level is bs
also this is just a feat for tayuya genjutsu being better than a hundreds of people sleep casting one not the other way around
not even saying he can resist to gowther but bad argument is bad.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 5, 2015)

Iwandesu it was ems sasuke that got caught by tayuya's flute illusion. Thing is it was being channeled through a senjutsu technique by SM kabuto so i wouldn't call that a strike against him.


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> >implying a preskip 2 dots sharigan sauce feat has anything to do with ems sauce


Sage Kabuto caught both Itachi and Sasuke in Tayuya's Illusion, and they had to dispell it by casting genjutsu on eachother.



> even classic sakura was able to resist kabuto hundreds of peoples mindfuck
> the notion of orochimaru not giving sauce anti genjutsu training on chunnin exam sakura level is bs
> also this is just a feat for tayuya genjutsu being better than a hundreds of people sleep casting one not the other way around
> not even saying he can resist to gowther but bad argument is bad.


I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Sauce has shown no resistance to non visual genjutsu, certainly not on someone like gowther's level. 

Oro is a fucking chump when it comes to good genjutsu, 13 year old Itachi fodderized him without Ms 

Why do people keep bringing up Kabuto's feat? It was designed to beat out most citizens and even special Jonin/ genin were getting out. Kabuto is not hyped in genjutsu.

Gowther completely changed the memeories of all the knights trying to attack his group and made them non hostiles, and mindfucked Dreyfus. IIRC he also quelled the rage of the first demon monstrosity.


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## Iwandesu (Apr 5, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Sage Kabuto caught both Itachi and Sasuke in Tayuya's Illusion, and they had to dispell it by casting genjutsu on eachother.


oh that's right the sound 4 was part of the war fiasco
BGPS adressed a good point for this one so that is about it.



> I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Sauce has shown no resistance to non visual genjutsu, certainly not on someone like gowther's level.
> 
> Oro is a fucking chump when it comes to good genjutsu, 13 year old Itachi fodderized him without Ms


>using a god tier genjutsu user like itachi to say orochimaru is bad
hell itachi fooderized kurenai and kakashi with his genjutsu.
both which lol noped kabuto's. 
also i don't recall itachi fooderizing orochimaru without they being both in akatsuki after he had already acquired ms but i might be wrong.
also it seems you are forgetting how orochimaru used that fear genjutsu to paralise team seven in the dead forest 



> Why do people keep bringing up Kabuto's feat? It was designed to beat out most citizens and even special Jonin/ genin were getting out. Kabuto is not hyped in genjutsu.


>designed to beat out special jonin
>still reked by sakura and shikamaru
>who have poorer genjutsu ability than sauce
>who were beat by either sauce or tayuya's genjutsu


> Gowther completely changed the memeories of all the knights trying to attack his group and made them non hostiles, and mindfucked Dreyfus. IIRC he also quelled the rage of the first demon monstrosity.


mindfucking a single character to the point of his complete breakdown is piece of cake for sauce
having stronger genjutsu then one that took out hundreds is also a fact to him
wether his illusion is stronger than gowther is debatable
but by no means is onesided in gowther favor


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## Max Thunder (Apr 5, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> can you post proof of this.. Because chakra elements works differently in real life elements..
> 
> you know the whole thing
> 
> ...




> Tobirama notes they combined their attacks with the *same* chakra ratio...
>Naruto matched a chidori and kagutsuchi with a normal rasengan, Sasuke matched a *Bijuu dama* with a normal chidori.
> Naruto's clones don't have the same stats, they have lower durability, and lower chakra seen as its divided, the more there are clones, the easier they are to kill, not to mention, Naruto used a couple of clones against Sasuke (which should make them stronger individually), they got one shotted.

Very unbiased of you to ignore all these points though...

Come at me bro.


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## Dr. White (Apr 5, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> oh that's right the sound 4 was part of the war fiasco
> BGPS adressed a good point for this one so that is about it.


It doesn't disprove my point that Sauce only has resistance to visual genjutsu.




> >using a god tier genjutsu user like itachi to say orochimaru is bad
> hell itachi fooderized kurenai and kakashi with his genjutsu.


Itachi was pre skip Sasuke age.

Itachi used MS genjutsu to beat Kakashi.



> both which lol noped kabuto's.


I don't care about pt. 1 Kabuto's genjutsu it's not comparable to Gowther's.



> also i don't recall itachi fooderizing orochimaru without they being both in akatsuki after he had already acquired ms but i might be wrong.


Orochimaru went after Itachi as soon as he joined Akatsuki, aka when Itachi was 13. Itachi was explictly shown beating Oro with a sharingan genjutsu which again was recalled when Sasuke beat him with 3 tomoe. Itachi didn't need MS to fodderize Oro.



> also it seems you are forgetting how orochimaru used that fear genjutsu to paralise team seven in the dead forest


that wasn't a genjutsu that was pure killing intent.

Even if it was (which again it's not) so what? That be as imprssive as Kakashi's D - Rank genjutsu he used on Sakura.




> >designed to beat out special jonin
> >still reked by sakura and shikamaru
> >who have poorer genjutsu ability than sauce
> >who were beat by either sauce or tayuya's genjutsu


you're just proving my point.



> mindfucking a single character to the point of his complete breakdown is piece of cake for sauce


Dreyfus is an extremely strong individual with a lot of anti Magic Defense. The Monsters weren't even thinking beings just demons themselves which makes it more impressive, and fodder knights in NNT > Sepcial Jonin fodder in Naruto if that's why you keep bringing up the Kabuto thing.



> having stronger genjutsu then one that took out hundreds is also a fact to him
> wether his illusion is stronger than gowther is debatable
> but by no means is onesided in gowther favor


None of this has anything to do with my orignal arguments, and I said *Gowther had the edge.*


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 5, 2015)

Max Thunder said:


> > Tobirama notes they combined their attacks with the *same* chakra ratio...


Tbh sasuke don't even need this scaling for his ama to be city level seeing as EMS sasuke's amaterasu is equal to or above itachi's amaterasu which was shown to beat cerberus while FRS(city level) couldn't.


> >Naruto matched a chidori and kagutsuchi with a normal rasengan, Sasuke matched a *Bijuu dama* with a normal chidori.


That was not a normal chidori PS was backing it. Unless your talking about another instance. That scene only showed that PS chidori=Six paths sage mode naruto's bijuudama.


> Naruto's clones don't have the same stats, they have lower durability, and lower chakra seen as its divided, the more there are clones, the easier they are to kill,


This is true sasuke killed them with plain shuriken which would not happen to the real naruto. But as for chakra they would have as much as naruto seeing as it's split evenly among naruto and the clones.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 5, 2015)

If the opposing team actually does have memory manipulation than that's actually regarded as a cut above mind fuck abilities like Tsukiyomi. Only Illusions that would be comparable to or greater than that in Naruto are Koto Amatsukami and IT.


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> If the opposing team actually does have memory manipulation than that's actually regarded as a cut above mind fuck abilities like Tsukiyomi. Only Illusions that would be comparable to or greater than that in Naruto are Koto Amatsukami and IT.


His powers are listed below. What is EMS Sauce's speed btw?

*Spoiler*: __ 



Search Light「詮索の光 (サーチライト), Sāchi Raito」: Gowther fires a small light arrow from the tip of his finger that allows him to invade the thoughts and memories of anyone it hits.[6] The ability also grants him access to subconscious memories.[7]

Rewrite Light「瘡蓋の記憶 (リライト・ライト), Riraito Raito」: A technique Gowther uses in tandem with his sacred treasure, Herritt.[8] A multitude of light arrows are fired at the enemy, passing through any shielding or armor.[9] Upon contact, Gowther can rewrite the memories of anyone struck by these light arrows.[10] However, this technique's effect is only superficial and the targets will return to normal once they realize the inconsistencies in their memories. Any new memories created while under the effect of this ability will also be erased.[11]

Nightmare Teller「悪夢語り (ナイトメア・テラー), Naitomea Terā」: With this technique Gowther can induce nightmarish visions by reawakening traumatic memories within an opponent.[12] Once activated it is possible the opponent may never wake from the nightmare.[13] Similar to the base effect of Invasion, the target is left immobile and defenseless while under the effect of this technique.[14] Should the target awaken, they will be both mentally and physically exhausted.[15]


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 6, 2015)

EMS Sauce probably gets CFRS speed in reactions at least if not the Kyuubi scaling for reactions at least and Naruto gets the same or so the team is somewhat over mach 100 to the sin's being over mach 200. 

Gowther has to land his attacks to use his mind fuck which gives the Naruto team a chance, I'm not sure if you can defend against it or not with Susanoo or something like that, but at the same time Naruto can use FRS easily and can kill either of them with it if it actually lands. 

It's best for the Naruto team if Sasuke fights Meliodas with his Susanoo up and uses that and genjutsu to hold Meliodas off while Naruto tries to quickly finish Gowther. Likewise Sasuke is fodder without Susanoo up as they can casually handle him and both him and Naruto is susceptible to Gowther's abilities. 

There is however the issue of Meliodas' counter which could bounce back FRS and Naruto doesn't have anything that hits in that range otherwise so for that, Naruto could try to counter by using clones or whatever, I'm not sure how full counter would work on Susanoo here.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 6, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> His powers are listed below. What is EMS Sauce's speed btw?



Yep, only Rinnegan Sauce has a chance of resisting that.

As for EMS Sasuke's speed, he is Hypersonic+ with MHS reactions and attacks.


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## Tir (Apr 6, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> If the opposing team actually does have memory manipulation than that's actually regarded as a cut above mind fuck abilities like Tsukiyomi. Only Illusions that would be comparable to or greater than that in Naruto are Koto Amatsukami and IT.



Gowther's rewrite light is superficial, unlike Koto that lasts forever. And as I said, Nightmare Terror is way more potent than Rewrite Light but only works like normal genjutsu.

This is the part that confuses the shit out of me.


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2015)

Tir said:


> Gowther's rewrite light is superficial, unlike Koto that lasts forever. And as I said, Nightmare Terror is way more potent than Rewrite Light but only works like normal genjutsu.
> 
> This is the part that confuses the shit out of me.



It goes away when inconsistencies start to build up but you're completely vulnerable until then. Plus Mifune escaped Koto once an outside source alerted him that he was under a spell IIRC


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## LazyWaka (Apr 6, 2015)

Mifune was put under a lower scale version of it akin to the regular sharingan Genjutsu Kakashi used on Zabuza during the beginning of the series (literally the only advantage it had over Kakashi's was that it doesn't need eye contact.) The one Itachi's crow had was permanent unless offset by an equally powerful mind control.


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Mifune was put under a lower scale version of it akin to the regular sharingan Genjutsu Kakashi used on Zabuza during the beginning of the series (literally the only advantage it had over Kakashi's was that it doesn't need eye contact.) The one Itachi's crow had was permanent unless offset by an equally powerful mind control.


What indication of this was there? Koto to my knowledge does not come in different forms. Danzo didn't require Eye contact and completely bypassed the targets being aware of being caught in genjutsu. it defintely wasn't akin to regular sharingan genjutsu.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 6, 2015)

I said lower scale version akin to the genjutsu kakashi used, not the same genjutsu kakashi used. 

Again, it's noted that a full MS Koto is straight up mind control. If just being aware of the full variant was enough to subvert it than his attempting to use it on Sasuke would have been worthless.

It's also possible that the 2 eyes have different effects. (both of Sasuke's eyes use Amaterasu, but in different ways.)

In any case I'm referring to the one Itachi's crow had, which is noted to be permanent.


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

Gowther can also take control of his opponents bodies: he took control of two vampires at Edinburgh and made them kill each other [, ] and when he fought Diane he hijacked her golems [].



Tir said:


> Gowther's rewrite light is superficial


It's not superficial, as he can manipulate memories on a subconscious level, nor is it necessarily short-term, as Guila was under his thumb for days despite the drastic changes he made to her memories.

EDIT:
It's also worth noting that Gowther's mindfuckery doesn't work like Genjutsu. Genjutsu works by manipulating the chakra flow in the victim, whereas Gowther's mindfuckery is straight up invasion of the victims mind. Hence, countermeasures that may be effective against Genjutsu (good chakra control or a counter Genjutsu (a la Sasuke & Itachi vs. Kabuto() isn't necessarily effective against Gowther's mind invasion.


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## AgentAAA (Apr 6, 2015)

EDIT:
It's also worth noting that Gowther's mindfuckery doesn't work like Genjutsu. Genjutsu works by manipulating the chakra flow in the victim, whereas Gowther's mindfuckery is straight up invasion of the victims mind. Hence, countermeasures that may be effective against Genjutsu (good chakra control or a counter Genjutsu (a la Sasuke & Itachi vs. Kabuto() isn't necessarily effective against Gowther's mind invasion.[/QUOTE]



no touching the rest of this, but I'm pretty sure that at least somewhat falls under the equalization rule.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> Genjutsu works by manipulating the chakra flow in the victim, whereas



pretty sure this one is equalize..


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 6, 2015)

We've seen with Dreyfus that Gowther's rewrite light can fail if the opponent has sufficient force of personality and willpower. That's not a quality Naruto lacks and if this incarnation has full control of the Kyūbi, that's another point in his favour. It might work on Sasuke, since I don't think genjutsu resistance from the Sharingan would help against an attack on the psyche (genjutsu attacks the chakra network; not the mind), but I'm inclined to think it'd be ineffective on Naruto.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> (genjutsu attacks the chakra network; not the mind),



AS pretty sure this fall under equalization.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> AS pretty sure this fall under equalization.



It does? Huh. If it does, then I suppose it'd be a question as to whether or not demon Meliodas can take on Naruto and Sasuke alone, then. What's the consensus on his zen hangeki working on Naruto's rasenshuriken or other ninjutsu?


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

It can reflect it. But with NLF applied... Basically the strongest he countered is the highest he can reflect back..

If we don't someone might get some stupid idea... Like full counter vs herald..


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## Blαck (Apr 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> AS pretty sure this fall under equalization.



Does it? Thought we only equalized energy types and whatnot if they had similarities


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

It invades your mind through chakra network. remove chakra network due to equalization and your left with it invades your mind...


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## Blαck (Apr 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> It invades your mind through chakra network. *remove chakra network due to equalization* and your left with it invades your mind...



Sounds a tad wacky tbh, if that's the case Prof.X would be just as fucked in this scenario


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

Prof. x has resistance to mind manipulation.  

bad example

Anyway that's not the complete explanation from what I remember just a guise of it....


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> It can reflect it. But with NLF applied... Basically the strongest he countered is the highest he can reflect back..
> 
> If we don't someone might get some stupid idea... Like full counter vs herald..



Well, where the manga is at the moment, I _think_ Meliodas has reflected an attack far stronger than Kyūbi chakra mode Naruto's rasenshuriken. That's just based on a rough estimate, though; I don't know if the OBD has actually 'measured' his latest feats. Here's a frame for reference , and he later reflects five of these at once in the following chapter.

If we're using the Meliodas specified by Dr. White, then I'm not too sure.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

Yea he could probably do it.


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## AgentAAA (Apr 6, 2015)

BlackniteSwartz said:


> Sounds a tad wacky tbh, if that's the case Prof.X would be just as fucked in this scenario



actually he'd be less fucked, since if we treat genjutsu as it's own thing he'd need to have chakra resistance or something equally hard to judge cross-fiction wise


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> I'm pretty sure that at least somewhat falls under the equalization rule.


Energy Equivalence means that the characters possess the relevent energy systems in the match-up, to make character's abilities which is prevalent upon the victim having their type of power/energy usable (e.g. Genjutsu). It doesn't mean that, for example, Chakra=Haki nor that CoA enhanced attack power is the same as Sakura's Chakra Enhanced Strength. The energy systems are still different, and the mechanics of abilities & powers remains the same.



Atlantic Storm said:


> We've seen with Dreyfus that Gowther's rewrite light can fail if the opponent has sufficient force of personality and willpower.


For starters, Gowther used Nightmare Teller on Dreyfus, which works differently from Rewrite Light. Nightmare Teller attempts to drive the victim to a mental breakdown via nightmarish visions by reawakening traumatic memories while Rewrite Light rewrites memories. The former can potentially be resisted through willpower and/or personality traits (e.g. lacking traumatic memories, lacking a capacity for remorse and regret etc.) whereas the latter can't unless the victim has specific feats doing so.

Secondly, Gowther's Nightmare Teller didn't fail against Dreyfus: it was Fraudrin's presence that repelled Gowther.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> the mechanics of abilities & powers remains the same.



Er this... is the real point of your whole post...

It doesn't matter what energy is used or how that energy is delivered....

This is one reason why Chakra strikes from Jyuuken can hurt Ki users who don't have chakra pathways... or Ki user being able to deflect the effect of chakra injection through their body.

The equivalence rule doesn't make us slap them with chakra networks/KI/Nen/reiatsu or Spirit energy. It let us equalize them so they could work on each other without going on the complicated specifics each system has since if we do it the other way around we won't be able to judge each others effect on the character in a cross fiction battle.. 

So the best way to do this shit is equalizing the effect of the ability.. in a more straight forward point.. which is genjutsu invading the mind instead of trying to invade the mind by entering the chakra pathway.

This is also the reason why activating nen won't kill a non-nen user...

or reiatsu crush not affecting non-reiatsu user...

or other shit where their "specific" energy does shit to other character that suppose to cripple them but can be overpowered by their own energy.


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> (genjutsu attacks the chakra network; not the mind), but I'm inclined to think it'd be ineffective on Naruto.


Genjutsu affects the mind via the chakra network. It just so happens you can do that via some cortex Kishi made up.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> Chakra=Haki



Also this is a bad example because Haki is not equalize to chakra or to any energy system to begin with....


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

@shade0180

Well yeah, if the nature of the powers/energy/abilities are similar than countermeasures that works against one would work against the other.

That is not the case with Gowther's Invasion and Genjutsu though, as Gowther doesn't mindfuck by manipulating the energy system in the victim.

If you want to consider the energy/powers analogous for the purpose of the match then that's fine too, in the end what it amounts to is the same as assuming that the involved characters possess each others energy/powers for the match. 

Arbitrary changing the mechanics of abilities is still ungrounded and unnecessary though.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> That is not the case with Gowther's Invasion and Genjutsu though


They are the same...

Gowther is invading the mind through whatever means he has

Chakra is invading the mind through whatever means it has..

same shit... equalize system..





> in the end what it amounts to is the same as assuming that the involved characters possess each others energy/powers for the match.



Drop this way of thinking because this doesn't work..

Seriously with this way, the thing is you(the character) can't/won't negate spirit/nen/ki/chakra and other type of energy because you(The character) don't know how the new energy we slapped in you works...

So instead of slapping each system to you(the character) we just make them function the same way to each other...

we aren't changing shit...



> Arbitrary changing the mechanics of abilities is still ungrounded and unnecessary though.



we aren't changing it we are equalizing how the system work.



Lets make this clear

your way of thinking is this

 it's giving Goku a chakra system... which he can't use to fight nor can he use to defend because he doesn't know how it works or that it even exist in him.. 


OBD equivalence

Goku's ki system works the same way as the chakra system without going to the complicated shit Kishi did. 

So if someone use genjutsu on Goku he just need to pull out his Ki

If someone use jyuuken on Goku he just need to send ki to that body part.

If someone use a chakra blast to Goku he just need to block it with a ki blast.

that's how equivalence work...


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Also this is a bad example because Haki is not equalize to anything to begin with....



Haki should technially equalize with magic from NNT since Magic in the verse is a manifestation of willpower. Which is what Haki is.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> Magic in the verse is a manifestation of willpower




Er.... that's not the reason we equalize things..... 

....... :shrug


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

Genjutsu manipulates the victims chakra flow and causes a disruption in their senses. How is that the "same" as Gowther's Invasion which works uses his light arrows as a medium to directly manipulate the victim's mind? The end result may be similar (mindfuck), but the methods they use to reach that end are different. A spatial cut and a sword cut may achieve the same result, but resisting one doesn't mean you can resist the other as the methods they use are different.

No, obviously a character wouldn't be able to negate something if he doesn't have the feats to suggest he can. Or are you referring to reiatsu crush, nen baptism and the like? With what I suggested the characters would possess the relevant energy/powers for the match appropriate for their general level of power and thus would not be vulnerable to such things (assuming the combatants are of similar strength).

If you stipulate that the energy/power and abilities of the characters function the same way then you _are_ changing how they work... That's undeniable, as there are obvious differences between the verses. That's not to say we should we hardliners; as I noted in my previous post, if the energy/powers/abilities are similar than we can consider countermeasure that works in one verse to be effective against the other as well.



shade0180 said:


> Also this is a bad example because Haki is not equalize to anything to begin with....


That's curious, since if you don't consider One Piece characters to have Chakra in a fight against Naruto characters nor consider Haki and Chakra analogous for the match, that'd imply you think One Piece characters would be immune to Genjutsu.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

Are you that dumb?  did you even bother to read the post or did you just glance on them....




This is like talking to a 7 years old...

Which you need to repeat shit again and again just to make them know how something works...


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## Tir (Apr 6, 2015)

Haki is different from your conventional energy. It's hard to equalize it with magic, chakra and so on.



> Well, where the manga is at the moment, I think Meliodas has reflected an attack far stronger than Kyūbi chakra mode Naruto's rasenshuriken. That's just based on a rough estimate, though; I don't know if the OBD has actually 'measured' his latest feats. Here's a frame for reference 1, and he later reflects five of these at once in the following chapter.
> 
> If we're using the Meliodas specified by Dr. White, then I'm not too sure.


That's depend on how you see it though. SM Naruto was able to create Chou FRS and we know KCM is much stronger than SM. Regardless tho, Mel ain't going to counter Naruto's FRS. superior numbers (even if Mel can copy himself, but Naruto can do it much better in that regard)  and being able to change its direction at will will make it impossible for Mel to counter KCM FRS.



> That's curious, since if you don't consider One Piece characters to have Chakra in a fight against Naruto characters nor consider Haki and Chakra analogous for the match, that'd imply you think One Piece characters would be immune to Genjutsu.


They have chakra but unlike Naruto, it is not the primary energy for them.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

> They have chakra but unlike Naruto, it is not the primary energy for them.



...... This is wrong...

They have energy ( Stamina is an energy)

 the point is they are not using them the same way as Nardo or Dragon ball or Yu Yu hakushu....

That energy is what is getting equalize..... 



> Genjutsu manipulates the victims chakra flow and causes a disruption in their senses. How is that the "same" as Gowther's Invasion which works uses his light arrows as a medium to directly manipulate the victim's mind?



See you are not getting is....

Lets drop their names....

Itachi by using his power is invading something to disrupt the senses. (Mind)..

Gowther by using his power is invading something to disrupt the senses (Mind)..


Your senses affect the mind. so again same shit

how is that any different? they aren't.. putting a label (Name) doesn't change them... they are what they are. An energy to access a special ability..

that's how this shit works..

Chakra is energy

Ki is energy 
------

Ability to use this energy is technique, ability or Power

They are the same shit....


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## LazyWaka (Apr 6, 2015)

Haki does equalize I the sense that everyone has it, it just doesn't equalize specifically with chakra or Ki and whatnot.

Why does it matter though? It's not like it being equalized or not with generic energy systems changes anything.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 6, 2015)

Meliodas one shots them both. Match ends. Now lock the thread.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Why does it matter though? It's not like it being equalized or not with generic energy systems changes anything.



It doesn't really matter... Chahige used it as an example...

And I'm saying the example is bad because it is different from chakra and ki.. or any other energy system...

Haki more or less gets equailize to other skill/ability/power/technique... that's about it...


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

Tir said:


> They have chakra but unlike Naruto, it is not the primary energy for them.


Yeah, my curiosity was for shade0180's view since apparently he didn't consider that the case.



shade0180 said:


> Your senses affect the mind. so again same shit


The reason we're don't seem to get anywhere is because you've not given any proper rebuttal. You are not answering my points nor presenting any solid argument for why your view should be considered right.

You still ignore that the means Genjutsu use to achieve their result is different from Gowther's Invasion, and the means (manipulating chakra flow) is principal to my argument since the countermeasures against Genjutsu in Naruto relies on the same means (manipulating chakra flow).


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

Pretty sure I rebutted your response and I answered my stance at the last page or 2 pages ago...


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## Dark Passenger (Apr 6, 2015)

@Chahige: It was shown that Kaguya had no problem using Genjutsu on people before Hagoromo spread chakra to everyone. That means that Genjutsu would work even if equalization wasn't on.


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

@shade0180

No, you haven't. You continue to bring up Energy Equivalence, yet that is not relevant to the subject, as it does not change how abilities & techniiques work.

Let me summerize my point for you.

A.) Genjutsu works by manipulating the chakra flow in the victim.
B.) Countermeasures against Genjutsu in Naruto pertain to manipulating the chakra flow (e.g. injecting chakra into a victim to break them out of it, great chakra control within yourself etc.).
C.) Gowther's Invasion does not involve manipulating the energy system within the victim.
D.) Considering the above, the natural conclusions is that countermeasures that may be effective against Genjutsu wouldn't be effective against Gowther's Invasion.

For example, attempting to break someone out of Gowther's Invasion by injecting the victim with chakra would do squat, since Gowther's Invasion has nothing to do with the energy flow in the body.

It's not complicated. Indeed, it's pretty simple and straightforward.


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

The problem is you are generalizing when their are different categories of them that manipulate the senses...



> A.) Genjutsu works by manipulating the chakra flow in the victim.



Not always



> B.) Countermeasures against Genjutsu in Naruto pertain to manipulating the chakra flow (e.g. injecting chakra into a victim to break them out of it, great chakra control within yourself etc.).



Again not always..



> C.) Gowther's Invasion does not involve manipulating the energy system within the victim.



And not all genjutsu manipulates the energy system



> D.) Considering the above



And again the above is half truths...



> , the natural conclusions is that countermeasures that may be effective against Genjutsu wouldn't be effective against Gowther's Invasion.



This is true in a way... 

I didn't say you can negate any other mind manipulation ability the same way as a genjutsu...

I even use this specific example in one of my post...

I only said that they work the same ways as the others...

which is they manipulate the senses(mind)




> For example, attempting to break someone out of Gowther's Invasion by injecting the victim with chakra would do squat, since Gowther's Invasion has nothing to do with the energy flow in the body.



The point is Genjutsu is used to manipulate the target senses in different ways.. It could be mind manipulation, using a memory, an illusion, a command and other shit.... But it doesn't mean it don't work the same way as the other ability across the board..

It just that common genjutsu have a much more specified ways to get out off, than other mind manipulation ability...


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 6, 2015)

When the hell has genjutsu's mechanics changed?
Genjutsu has always worked and described as fucking with ones chakra flow in the brain thus causing a disturbance in ones senses.


And no shade.
Whilst energy equivalence is in effect, abilities do not.
You can't just give abilities extra effect whatsoever.
Same as giving abilities extra weaknesses they do not really have.



> This is true in a way...
> I didn't say you can negate any other mind manipulation ability the same way as a genjutsu...
> I even use this specific example in one of my post...
> I only said that they work the same ways as the others...
> which is they manipulate the senses(mind)


Don't really know what you're trying to insuate here.
It's kinda stupid for a mind control technique to not control the mind.


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## Chahige (Apr 6, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Not always





shade0180 said:


> Again not always..





shade0180 said:


> And not all genjutsu manipulates the energy system





shade0180 said:


> And again the above is half truths...


Fair enough. I trusted Jiraiya's explanation [, ], and to my knowledge every Genjutsu and instance where someone broke out of a Genjutsu corresponded to that.

It'd be great, however, if you could expand on your answers, preferably with examples and feats.



shade0180 said:


> I didn't say you can negate any other mind manipulation ability the same way as a genjutsu...


Then why did you start the argument with me if you don't disagree with my original post?


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## shade0180 (Apr 6, 2015)

Because of how you explained it in your 1st post. 



> You can't just give abilities extra effect whatsoever.
> Same as giving abilities extra weaknesses they do not really have.



Zen I'm not adding or removing anything....



> When the hell has genjutsu's mechanics changed?



Because lolkishi and Sharingan.


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## Dr. White (Apr 6, 2015)

Sasuke gets the hawk nightmare breakfast


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## Source (Apr 6, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> Meliodas one shots them both.



How so?


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## LazyWaka (Apr 6, 2015)

Thing is not all Genjutsu's are resisted or broken via standard genjutsu repellant means.

The sharingan doesn't automatically disrupt the users chakra to break the illusion, it just straight up see's through it (again, not nearly enough to help against something like memory manipulation though.)

On the other hand, Kabuto's Edo Tensei control is actually equally as powerful as Koto since the 2 cancelled each other out (databook also mentions that they are comparable in potency) and the outer path ability is even > than that since it has more control over the Edo's than Kabuto does.

Than we have a Bijuu resisting that (albeit only momentarily). So actually their are quite a few mind resistant feats in Naruto that don't depend on typical Genjutsu mechanics.

Not enough to help Naruto and Sasuke in this case since they don't benefit from the better mental resistance feats.


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## KaiserWombat (Apr 6, 2015)

So, is the conclusion that Team Nayrudo loses due to inability to counter Gowther's mind/illusory shenanigans while lacking an overt enough physical advantage to compensate?


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

No way, Kaiser. KCM Naruto has Kyuubi to release him from the illusion. If Dreyfus' inner demon can repel it, why not Kyuubi? Same shit really. 

Another thing is, Gowther's Invasion can be blocked by physical object, as shown by Diane who stopped Gowther's arrow using her stone. This makes things like Susanoo and Naruto's chakra arm capable of blocking it. 

Again, superior numbers of Naruto take this easily enough.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> No way, Kaiser. KCM Naruto has Kyuubi to release him from the illusion. If Dreyfus' inner demon can repel it, why not Kyuubi? Same shit really.
> 
> Another thing is, Gowther's Invasion can be blocked by physical object, as shown by Diane who stopped Gowther's arrow using her stone. This makes things like Susanoo and Naruto's chakra arm capable of blocking it.
> 
> Again, superior numbers of Naruto take this easily enough.



That was Nightmare Teller, not Rewrite Light.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> That was Nightmare Teller, not Rewrite Light.



I know and I was referring to it. Still it doesn't change the fact that Gowther's Invasion can be blocked by physical object. EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto can safely block the Invasion. 
Let's not talk about Mel's ability since he is pretty much irrelevant here. 

Team Naruto takes this handily.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2015)

I just caught up to the manga so I'm unrestricting everything except PS.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 7, 2015)

Really it could go either way, it's almost 50/50 here


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> No way, Kaiser. KCM Naruto has Kyuubi to release him from the illusion. If Dreyfus' inner demon can repel it, why not Kyuubi? Same shit really.
> 
> Another thing is, Gowther's Invasion can be blocked by physical object, as shown by Diane who stopped Gowther's arrow using her stone. This makes things like Susanoo and Naruto's chakra arm capable of blocking it.
> 
> Again, superior numbers of Naruto take this easily enough.



Memory Manipulation > Genjutsu. Even Tobi could genjutsu a perfect jin without Koto, and Gowther's Memory Manipulation is more potent so it kyuubi's illusion resistance isn't strong enough. Dreyfus had high magic resistance (was able to no sell attacks helbram had to use resistance spells to survive) and Gowther was able to get right by his defenses, and even quell the demon knights (who had 2 conscious' inside of it). 

Gowther's bows have gone through armor before, but Diane blocking his attack does make it murky as to what will work. I also recall him busting some type of armor with one of his concentrated attacks, Ill try to find it.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> I know and I was referring to it. Still it doesn't change the fact that Gowther's Invasion can be blocked by physical object. EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto can safely block the Invasion.
> Let's not talk about Mel's ability since he is pretty much irrelevant here.
> 
> Team Naruto takes this handily.



They'll block one, sure. But what if he fires a few dozen, or a few hundred like he did outside of the castle gates? I don't see Nardo or the Sauce blocking that, assuming it's even a legit weakness.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

There is still no proof that the 3rd Mizu was a perfect jin. That's literally an in series rumor.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> They'll block one, sure. But what if he fires a few dozen, or a few hundred like he did outside of the castle gates? I don't see Nardo or the Sauce blocking that, assuming it's even a legit weakness.


They don't need to block it. Susanoo and Kyuubi chakra are more than capable of blocking every kind of attack. Especially one as weak as Gowther's Invasion. 



LazyWaka said:


> There is still no proof that the 3rd Mizu was a perfect jin. That's literally an in series rumor.


Naruto and Bee are perfect jins. We have seen how Tsukuyomi rendered useless by Hachibi.

Come to think of it, it's plausible that the genjutsu Tobi used on 3rd Mizu was a kind of memory manipulation.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Apr 7, 2015)

It was flat out mind control actually.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> They don't need to block it. Susanoo and Kyuubi chakra are more than capable of blocking every kind of attack. Especially one as weak as Gowther's Invasion.



NLF. Scans pls. Also, lol @ Rewrite Light being "weak". It's a much better and more useful mindfuck than anything Nardoverse has ever shown 



Tir said:


> Naruto and Bee are perfect jins. We have seen how Tsukuyomi rendered useless by Hachibi.
> 
> Come to think of it, it's plausible that the genjutsu Tobi used on 3rd Mizu was a kind of memory manipulation.



Speculation until proven otherwise. Was it ever stated by someone reputable that they were perfect jin? Was it confirmed by Kishi?


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## Source (Apr 7, 2015)

Isn't it pretty unlikely for Gowther to land a hit in the first place?

Naruto can wipe him out with an FRS before that happens, considering his speed advantage and clones.


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## shade0180 (Apr 7, 2015)

mapsk said:
			
		

> NLF.



NLF 
on what? 
DC?
Gowther's damage is weaker than Sauce and Nardo's Durability.
Defensive capability on 360 degree around the user?
kyuubi Cloak works as an outerskin for nardo and Susanoo put sauce inside its ribcage?

... So mapsk can you tell us why you called for NLF in this scenario.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> Naruto and Bee are perfect jins. We have seen how Tsukuyomi rendered useless by Hachibi..



They were never hit by Tsukiyomi.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> NLF
> on what?
> DC?
> Gowther's damage is weaker than Sauce and Nardo's Durability.
> ...



Just the blanket statement that they were capable of blocking any kind of attack with no regard to its mechanics


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## shade0180 (Apr 7, 2015)

Er, okay.. the topic is gowther anyway.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> NLF. Scans pls. Also, lol @ Rewrite Light being "weak". It's a much better and more useful mindfuck than anything Nardoverse has ever shown


Honestly, do you even read what I have been posting? RL's DC is practically nonexistent and it's been shown even a fucking rock can stop it. What's the chance of it being able to penetrate Susanoo and Kyuubi's chakra? Nonexistent. Honestly, I've been saying that shit since forever ago. 



MAPSK said:


> Speculation until proven otherwise. Was it ever stated by someone reputable that they were perfect jin? Was it confirmed by Kishi?


Do you even read Naruto? You sure did a good job making a fool out of yourself. 



LazyWaka said:


> They were never hit by Tsukiyomi.


Sasuke used MS genjutsu on Bee. Later he used the same thing on Danzo and danzo recognized them as Tsukiyomi. 



MAPSK said:


> Just the blanket statement that they were capable of blocking any kind of attack with no regard to its mechanics


Whatever. I've been saying RL can't penetrate Susanoo and Kyuubi's chakra and you ignore it. I made a slight mistake, you pounce on it. Selective reading much MAPSK?



> Er, okay.. the topic is gowther anyway.


A slip of tongue by me but yes, I did mean Gowther's Invasion


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> Do you even read Naruto?



Why would I want to do that?


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> No way, Kaiser. KCM Naruto has Kyuubi to release him from the illusion. If Dreyfus' inner demon can repel it, why not Kyuubi? Same shit really.


Just because dreyfus inner demon could release him from gowther's nightmare teller does not mean kyuubi could do the same.
Especially considering that magic resistance is a thing in NNT.



> Isn't it pretty unlikely for Gowther to land a hit in the first place?
> 
> Naruto can wipe him out with an FRS before that happens, considering his speed advantage and clones.


"Speed advantage" is pretty slim for that to happen, if there's any.



> Whatever. I've been saying RL can't penetrate Susanoo and Kyuubi's chakra and you ignore it. I made a slight mistake, you pounce on it. Selective reading much MAPSK?


You'd be hard pressed to prove that those could block RL considering that it's shown to be able to.


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## BreakFlame (Apr 7, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I just caught up to the manga so I'm unrestricting everything except PS.



Uh.

So does that include Rikudo chakra mode for Naruto and Rinnegan for Sasuke? Because if so this just turned into a massive rape. Their stats are so much higher at that point that Mel is completely removed from the equation, and Gowther can't get to them through Kyuubi mode or Complete Susanoo (let alone Perfect)


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Why would I want to do that?



I'll take it as concession then :33


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## Yak (Apr 7, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> Uh.
> 
> So does that include Rikudo chakra mode for Naruto and Rinnegan for Sasuke? Because if so this just turned into a massive rape. Their stats are so much higher at that point that Mel is completely removed from the equation, and Gowther can't get to them through Kyuubi mode or Complete Susanoo (let alone Perfect)



I think he meant the restrictions on NNT since until a few days ago he was an anime-only guy and hadn't caught up with the manga.

These changes henceforth include Meliodas with Lostvayne and his cloning ability and all his more recent feats from the Albion and Galan fights as well as Gowther being able to use his Jack /Hi-Jack abilities, Black Out and Black Out Arrow.

Correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Just because dreyfus inner demon could release him from gowther's nightmare teller does not mean kyuubi could do the same.
> Especially considering that magic resistance is a thing in NNT.


And NNT is the only thing that has resistance to illusion? sure zen, sure. 
Dreyfus' demon broke the illusion. Acceptable.
Naruto's demon broke the illusion. Not acceptable.
Sure. 



> "Speed advantage" is pretty slim for that to happen, if there's any.


Clones advantages are still there and they are still faster than Team Mel. 



> You'd be hard pressed to prove that those could block RL considering that it's shown to be able to.



Found it easily enough.



> I think he meant the restrictions on NNT since until a few days ago he was an anime-only guy and hadn't caught up with the manga.
> 
> These changes henceforth include Meliodas with Lostvayne and his cloning ability and all his more recent feats from the Albion and Galan fights as well as Gowther being able to use his Jack /Hi-Jack abilities, Black Out and Black Out Arrow.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption.


No, it was for Naruto team. Rikudou chakra mode Naruto would flat out destroyed NNT verse before they could even blink.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> I'll take it as concession then :33



Being a fan of something isn't necessarily a requirement for debating it, fucklechuck :33

Anyway, the feats for RL are conflicting, especially given that Diane blocking RL with a rock is likely a gag feat given the Sins rarely truly fight one another (Ban vs. Mel and King vs. Ban being the only two examples I can think of). RL more than likely phases through its target and bypasses durability.

Plus, unless Gowther can't get close enough for CQC (the speed difference here shouldn't be that great), Nightmare Teller is still a problem, given Dreyfus had magic resistance _and_ another person inside his head like everyone's favorite pineapple-headed paranoid schizophrenic and it was still difficult for him to break free from it.

EDIT: Nvm, I'm dumb.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> Sasuke used MS genjutsu on Bee. Later he used the same thing on Danzo and danzo recognized them as Tsukiyomi.



No, Danzo just compared Sasukes Genjutsu to Tsukiyomi (and how shit it was in comparison), he never said it was tsukiyomi. Infact during the battle against Kabuto when Sasuke and Itachi counter his genjutsu with their own Sasukes is even referred to as a different genjutsu.


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## Yak (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> Found it easily enough.



In that regard, Gowther's arrows work like any other arrow too, actually. They can penetrate objects to a certain degree but depending on the size of the object they impact on and on the size of the arrow it only goes in so much. Gowther can however to some degree alter and adjust the size of his arrows. 

The typical ones he uses are fast-fire, almost instant 'darts', he can however upgrade to some lance-sized ones as seen with Rewrite Light's mass shooting early in the Capital Infiltration arc (when he used it the first time with his bows) or like in Vampires of Edinburgh where he transformed Blackout into a single arrow to increase its potency instead of area of effect. He can also transform his bows into huge blades which can easily phase through objects the size of Diane's golems. But it takes some time to charge.



Tir said:


> No, it was for Naruto team. Rikudou chakra mode Naruto would flat out destroyed NNT verse before they could even blink.



No offense, but I'd like Dr. White to answer instead of you, he made thread.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Being a fan of something isn't necessarily a requirement for debating it, fucklechuck :33


I remember you used to use chucklefuck. Almost like CT





> Anyway, the feats for RL are conflicting, especially given that Diane blocking RL with a rock is likely a gag feat given the Sins rarely truly fight one another (Ban vs. Mel and King vs. Ban being the only two examples I can think of). RL more than likely phases through its target and bypasses durability.


Man I was too late commenting on this. 



> Plus, unless Gowther can't get close enough for CQC (the speed difference here shouldn't be that great), Nightmare Teller is still a problem, given Dreyfus had magic resistance _and_ another person inside his head like everyone's favorite pineapple-headed paranoid schizophrenic and it was still difficult for him to break free from it.



Bullshit. Magic = chkara. Chakra resistance? Sure. At any rate, Nightmare Teller is sure looking like your generic genjutsu. Far from Rewrite Light.



Yak said:


> No offense, but I'd like Dr. White to answer instead of you, he made thread.


None taken. But Rikudou Mode Naruto is well in continental - multi continental range.



> No, Danzo just compared Sasukes Genjutsu to Tsukiyomi (and how shit it was in comparison), he never said it was tsukiyomi. Infact during the battle against Kabuto when Sasuke and Itachi counter his genjutsu with their own Sasukes is even referred to as a different genjutsu.


Wrong. Danzo commented on how shitty Sasuke's Tsukuyomi compared to Itachi that can control the flow of time. 



> In that regard, Gowther's arrows work like any other arrow too, actually. They can penetrate objects to a certain degree but depending on the size of the object they impact on and on the size of the arrow it only goes in so much. Gowther can however to some degree alter and adjust the size of his arrows.
> 
> The typical ones he uses are fast-fire, almost instant 'darts', he can however upgrade to some lance-sized ones as seen with Rewrite Light's mass shooting early in the Capital Infiltration arc (when he used it the first time with his bows) or like in Vampires of Edinburgh where he transformed Blackout into a single arrow to increase its potency instead of area of effect. He can also transform his bows into huge blades which can easily phase through objects the size of Diane's golems. But it takes some time to charge.


Still can't pierce Susanoo and Kyuubi's chakra.


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## Yak (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> None taken. But Rikudou Mode Naruto is well in continental - multi continental range.



I do not contest any of that. As you can see I hardly participate in the debating of this fight, I point out things in relation to the NNT verse since I consider myself rather knowledgable and organized in that regard (and because I frankly don't give a shit about Naruto, not having followed it closely in years).

Consider it more a reason of etiquette to have the OP confirm what he decides to limit and what not.



> Still can't pierce Susanoo and Kyuubi's chakra.



Wouldn't that depend on the density of their respective defensive shrouds, otherwise NLF? Cause Gowther's arrows care jack for the composition of the material, only its volume. In short, to some extend it bypasses durability and the reach it has is dependent on the defense and the size of the arrow. Note that this is hypothetically asking since Gowther has not shown to make an arrow the size of Susanoo or Kyuubi's chakra shroud. It's jsut to confirm for what reason it couldn't pierce.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> And NNT is the only thing that has resistance to illusion? sure zen, sure.
> Dreyfus' demon broke the illusion. Acceptable.
> Naruto's demon broke the illusion. Not acceptable.
> Sure.


Just how dense are you going to be?
NNT's mechanics differ from Naruto's.
Bijuu's releases their hosts from genjutsu via fixing their chakra flow.
Fixing your chakra flow won't do jack to NNT's illusions considering that those do not really work under that kind of system.



> Found it easily enough.


1) that's not rewrite light
2)  cosidering that diane's actively manipulating the earth, what stops those rocks from being stronger than your natural rock anyway.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2015)

Yak said:


> I think he meant the restrictions on NNT since until a few days ago he was an anime-only guy and hadn't caught up with the manga.
> 
> These changes henceforth include Meliodas with Lostvayne and his cloning ability and all his more recent feats from the Albion and Galan fights as well as Gowther being able to use his Jack /Hi-Jack abilities, Black Out and Black Out Arrow.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption.



KCM Naruto (no BM or higher obviously) is completely unrestricted as well as Melodias, and Gowther. Sasuke cannot use PS, but anything else EMS related is fair game.


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## Yak (Apr 7, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> KCM Naruto (no BM or higher obviously) is completely unrestricted as well as Melodias, and Gowther. Sasuke cannot use PS, but anything else EMS related is fair game.



Alright, thanks for shedding some light into this again.



ZenithXAbyss said:


> Just how dense are you going to be?
> NNT's mechanics differ from Naruto's.
> Bijuu's releases their hosts from genjutsu via fixing their chakra flow.
> 
> ...



Bolded part is entirely hypothetical. She can only alter the density of the pillars so much as the base material's composition allows it unless it is obvious by the panel that she completely changed the composition (like when she used Heavy Metal on herself or turning quartz into quick sand) or the author stated it. Otherwise those pillars are of the same quality as the ground beneath their feet.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Just how dense are you going to be?
> NNT's mechanics differ from Naruto's.



Okay. Means that sasuke's genjutsu will work like wonder now. This turning into more of a stomp minute by minute. 




> 1) that's not rewrite light
> 2)  cosidering that diane's actively manipulating the earth, what stops those rocks from being stronger than your natural rock anyway.


1) still blocked the arrow
2) proof on you to say it is stronger than Susnoo and Kyuubi's chakra.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> Wrong. Danzo commented on how shitty Sasuke's Tsukuyomi compared to Itachi that can control the flow of time.



No he didn't, he never referred to Sasukes gejutsu as Tsukiyomi, only that it is below Itachi's Tsukiyomi.

Nevermind that it is literally impossible for him to have that since his 2 MS Jutsu's are already accounted for (each eye only comes with 1.) His ability is only ever referred to as an MS genjutsu EVEN WHEN ITACHI'S WAS REFERRED TO AS TSUKIYOMI IN THE SAME FUCKING SCENE.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

> 1) still blocked the arrow


>does not have anything to do with RL.



> 2) proof on you to say it is stronger than Susnoo and Kyuubi's chakra.


>Proceeds to stonewall eitherway.

@yak
Just some food for thought, really.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Just how dense are you going to be?
> NNT's mechanics differ from Naruto's.
> Bijuu's releases their hosts from genjutsu via fixing their chakra flow.
> Fixing your chakra flow won't do jack to NNT's illusions considering that those do not really work under that kind of system..



Actually Orochimaru's killing intent is flat out stated to not be a genjutsu and have nothing to do with chakra, meaning chakra flow shenanigans isn't applied and Kyuubi was still able to negate it.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> No he didn't, he never referred to Sasukes gejutsu as Tsukiyomi, only that it is below Itachi's Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Nevermind that it is literally impossible for him to have that since his 2 MS Jutsu's are already accounted for (each eye only comes with 1.) His ability is only ever referred to as an MS genjutsu EVEN WHEN ITACHI'S WAS REFERRED TO AS TSUKIYOMI IN THE SAME FUCKING SCENE.



hmm.. seems like I got shit mixed up then. My mistake. 
But still, it is laughable to think that normal sharigan can break Tsukuyomi but perfect jins are incapable of doing so.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

Still, it's not like that would matter considering that NT pretty much incapacitated Dreyfus for a while iirc despite having _high resistance._



Tir said:


> hmm.. seems like I got shit mixed up then. My mistake.
> But still, it is laughable to think that *normal sharigan can break Tsukuyomi* but perfect jins are incapable of doing so.



He can because of inuniverse shenanigans.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

Because perfect jins rely on traditional genjutsu breaking methods to escape while Tsukiyomi is stated to not be effected by those methods.



ZenithXAbyss said:


> He can because of inuniverse shenanigans.



Again, those in universe shenanigans don't apply to Tsukiyomi, meaning Sasukes feat of resisting it is legit.


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Still, it's not like that would matter considering that NT pretty much incapacitated Dreyfus for a while iirc despite having _high resistance._



b..but magic resistance =/= illusion resistance. Somebody even corrected me about this before.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Again, those in universe shenanigans don't apply to Tsukiyomi, meaning Sasukes feat of resisting it is legit.



Didn't itachi state that a sharingan user can actually release oneself from tsukuyomi earlier in the series?


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## Tir (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Didn't itachi state that a sharingan user can actually release oneself from tsukuyomi earlier in the series?


Yo can't take anything Itachi said seriously. The guy is a fucking liar.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Didn't itachi state that a sharingan user can actually release oneself from tsukuyomi earlier in the series?



No, that was the MS, and that had nothing to do with chakra flow shenanigans, that was attributed to the sharingans ability to see through shit.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Just thought of this, but isn't it possible that the reason Diane blocked Gowther's tech with stone could be that Gowther's illusions simply work on contact with whatever they hit? Gowther's tech may have been stopped by a rock because it was trying (and obviously failing) to mindfuck _a rock_.

This of course raises questions about whether or not we can count a chakra cloak as an inanimate blockade or as an extension of the person producing it and whether Susanoo has any exposed areas an arrow can slip through...


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> This of course raises questions about whether or not we can count a chakra cloak as an inanimate blockade or as an extension of the person producing it *and whether Susanoo has any exposed areas an arrow can slip through.*..



Depends on which form. Ribcage Susano'o yes, anything higher no.


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## shade0180 (Apr 7, 2015)

> Didn't itachi state that a sharingan user can actually release oneself from tsukuyomi earlier in the series?



Er more like only an uchiha can defeat an uchiha... which was talked about while itachi and kakashi was fighting

Due to Kakashi owning a sharingan while not being an Uchiha.. or some shit like that....


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## Kenpachi TZ (Apr 7, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Gowther has to land his attacks to use his mind fuck which gives the Naruto team a chance, I'm not sure if you can defend against it or not with Susanoo or something like that



Didn't Susano'o filter out Infinite Tsukiyomi?

And aren't IT and Gowther's mindfuckery both light based?

Then again, I'm not sure if the PS is the only light-proof Susano'o. 



shade0180 said:


> It can reflect it. But with NLF applied... Basically the strongest he countered is the highest he can reflect back..
> 
> If we don't someone might get some stupid idea... Like full counter vs herald..



Not necessarily.

IIRC, Full Counter amplifies the attack and his clones can use it just as effectively at 1/4 the strength of the original.

Sounds like there needs to be a multiplier or something tacked on to his highest showing, alongside the standard NLF clause. 

Don't ask me how much, though.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> No, that was the MS, and that had nothing to do with chakra flow shenanigans, that was attributed to the sharingans ability to see through shit.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Didn't Susano'o filter out Infinite Tsukiyomi?
> 
> And aren't IT and Gowther's mindfuckery both light based?
> 
> Then again, I'm not sure if the PS is the only light-proof Susano'o.



That was specifically a property of his rinnegan enhanced Susano'o.


Yeah, that's far to vague to get anything from.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Apr 7, 2015)

Being an actual uchiha with fully functional sharingan seems to be heavily implied to be able to counter tsukiyomi.


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## shade0180 (Apr 7, 2015)

> Not necessarily.
> 
> IIRC, Full Counter amplifies the attack and his clones can use it just as effectively at 1/4 the strength of the original.


Er we know it amplifies the attack. But, there is still a limit to what the strength of the attack he can reflect back

It goes 

Mel <- Highest attack - the one who used the ability

This is where the limit is.... 

Mel - Amplified attack -> the one who used the ability

this is where the multiplier happens..


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## LazyWaka (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Being an actual uchiha with fully functional sharingan seems to be heavily implied to be able to counter tsukiyomi.



Great, so sharingan users have resistance to mental attacks like we've been saying, what else is new. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Since I know that you're trying to argure that Tsukiyomi is just weak against other sharingans, that was flat out stated to not be the case during Sasukes battle with Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2015)

Tir said:


> hmm.. seems like I got shit mixed up then. My mistake.
> But still, it is laughable to think that normal sharigan can break Tsukuyomi but perfect jins are incapable of doing so.



KCM Naruto told Killer Bee straight up that being hit by Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi would be an OHKO, this of course coming after the bjuu training and Naruto learning of Killer Bee being a perfect jin.


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## Yak (Apr 7, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Just thought of this, but isn't it possible that the reason Diane blocked Gowther's tech with stone could be that Gowther's illusions simply work on contact with whatever they hit? Gowther's tech may have been stopped by a rock because it was trying (and obviously failing) to mindfuck _a rock_.
> 
> This of course raises questions about whether or not we can count a chakra cloak as an inanimate blockade or as an extension of the person producing it and whether Susanoo has any exposed areas an arrow can slip through...



Isn't this boiling down to the really basic case of: Have either chakra shroud or Susanoo shown to be directly giving mental feedback to their user when being penetrated / infiltrated? If yes, by what attack and magnitude? If no... well, if no, then it's already off the table because you can only use feats shown, not those hypothetically possible. Right? 


On a different matter, namely the penetration force of Gowther's arrows (this is also just some food for thought):

Is it possible to attempt some scaling here based on Meliodas' twig feat from quite a while ago? When he used nothing but a twig to split a small pond and a relatively large hill with just a single swing that should kinda yield some numbers, right? Considering that his cutting power should be more potent with a sword and Liz' sword broke when cutting the Albion (which proves its skin to be much tougher) but easily diced it's arm to shreds with Lostvayne, yet Lostvayne in turn couldn't even penetrate Galan's armor skin in the recent chapter... well, Gowther's arrow _did_. I'm sure you're seeing where I'm going with this...


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

Gowther's arrows should have enough piercing power to overcome their durability anyway IIRC, given that Gowther should be small city level to begin with like the rest of the Sins and his arrows are focusing that power over a pitifully small area.


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## Source (Apr 7, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> "Speed advantage" is pretty slim for that to happen, if there's any.



Mach 450 to Mach 279 isn't much but it's a difference.

Also clones to act as shields and spam more FRSs.


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## Yak (Apr 7, 2015)

Another thing that probably hasn't been talked about. When Gowther manipulated Guila's memories, that caused her to overcome the demonification process when Hendricksen activated the transformation into those abominations. However, unlike everyone else, Guila hadn't had her demon seedling removed from her body and kept her powers even after Gowther restored her memory to the original state. She didn't go into rampaging mode right after she was restored to her original state either.

Meaning, by making her mind believe she had overcome the power with sheer training fortitude and willpower, it kept said effect even after the memory altering had worn off, effectively physically tricking the demon blood into being supressed. 

That's some very powerful stuff right there because it has repercussions that not only affect the target physically by exhaustion but effectively alter their physical condition altogether. Hendricksen's transformation spell was high-level forbidden magic. That's no run off the mill spell we are talking here.


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## MAPSK (Apr 7, 2015)

That's one powerful placebo


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## Chahige (Apr 7, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Thing is not all Genjutsu's are resisted or broken via standard genjutsu repellant means.


Alright. Thanks for the examples.



Tir said:


> KCM Naruto has Kyuubi to release him from the illusion. If Dreyfus' inner demon can repel it, why not Kyuubi? Same shit really.


As we've established, there is no reason why the means which Kyuubi would use to break Naruto out of a Genjutsu would against Gowther's Invasion since his mindfuck has nothing to do with manipulating the chakra/energy flow.

Fraudrin and Kyuubi may share some characteristics, but it's groundless to assume that they would be able to replicate each others feats because of that.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2015)

Why would it be assumed Kyuubi has that much skill? Verses aren't the same so Kyuubi's method of breaking out isn't surefire to do jack, especially given Tsukuyomi should GG any perfect Jin (barring higher form Naruto's because lol sage), and Gowther has memory hax to boot.


----------



## Iwandesu (Apr 7, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Why would it be assumed Kyuubi has that much skill? Verses aren't the same so Kyuubi's method of breaking out isn't surefire to do jack, especially given Tsukuyomi should GG any perfect Jin (barring higher form Naruto's because lol sage), and Gowther has memory hax to boot.


didn't hachibi resist to tsukuyomi like it was nothing ?


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## Dr. White (Apr 7, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> didn't hachibi resist to tsukuyomi like it was nothing ?



Nope. The MS genjutsu Sasuke used on Bee wasn't Tsukuyomi rather MS genjutsu. Very similar to the one Itachi used to paralyze Orochimaru. Oro was trying to Kai to break his flow, Bee didn't have to cause Hachibi could do it internally.

Kakashi stated that because of the "time manipulation" aspect of Tsukuyomi it's impossible to break (3  mental days condensed into one actual moment) which is supported by Bee being affected by Sasuke's MS genjutsu (he was paralyzed and fell unable to brace himself, but immediately blitzed after Hachibi broke him out.) and Itachi's base genjutsu for multiple panels before being broke out.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Technically if the jin was in full Bijuu mode their is a possibility that they could shake off the worst of Tsukiyomi given a certain mental resistance feat one of them pulled.

Outer path mind control > Edo Tensei control = Koto > Tsukiyomi. Kokou (five tails) was able to "briefly" shake off the outer path control, so it's not entirely out of the question that they could shake off Tsukiyomi. Of course, that's not an advantage of the jinchuuriki unless they're in full Bijuu mode.

But again, none of these feats can apply to TBCM Naruto or EMS Sauce.

EDIT: before anyone brings it up, the sharingans ability to control the nine tails does not mean that bijuu are easily susceptible to mind control since it was revealed in the flashback to have more to do with a unique contract of sorts.


----------



## Tir (Apr 8, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> Gowther's arrows should have enough piercing power to overcome their durability anyway IIRC, given that Gowther should be small city level to begin with like the rest of the Sins and his arrows are focusing that power over a pitifully small area.


Their durability? sure. Susanoo and Kyuubi's chakra are dfferent matter. 
Gowther isn't known for DC like the rest of the sin, so you can't just slap shit however you like. 




Yak said:


> Isn't this boiling down to the really basic case of: Have either chakra shroud or Susanoo shown to be directly giving mental feedback to their user when being penetrated / infiltrated? If yes, by what attack and magnitude? If no... well, if no, then it's already off the table because you can only use feats shown, not those hypothetically possible. Right?



No. 



> On a different matter, namely the penetration force of Gowther's arrows (this is also just some food for thought):
> 
> Is it possible to attempt some scaling here based on Meliodas' twig feat from quite a while ago? When he used nothing but a twig to split a small pond and a relatively large hill with just a single swing that should kinda yield some numbers, right? Considering that his cutting power should be more potent with a sword and Liz' sword broke when cutting the Albion (which proves its skin to be much tougher) but easily diced it's arm to shreds with Lostvayne, yet Lostvayne in turn couldn't even penetrate Galan's armor skin in the recent chapter... well, Gowther's arrow _did_. I'm sure you're seeing where I'm going with this...


I see where you are going, but unfortunately Gowther is not your person for DC. That being said, the arrow might be able to pierce and stuck in high durability character but given that it also pierced the stone, it is possible it ignores durability but can be stopped by physical object. If that even makes sense






Chahige said:


> Alright. Thanks for the examples.
> 
> 
> As we've established, there is no reason why the means which Kyuubi would use to break Naruto out of a Genjutsu would against Gowther's Invasion since his mindfuck has nothing to do with manipulating the chakra/energy flow.
> ...


Well, that'd make the Sins unable to resist genjutsu then. even more GG NNT
Clones, superior speed, genjutsu


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## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Technically if the jin was in full Bijuu mode their is a possibility that they could shake off the worst of Tsukiyomi given a certain mental resistance feat one of them pulled.
> 
> Outer path mind control > Edo Tensei control = Koto > Tsukiyomi. Kokou (five tails) was able to "briefly" shake off the outer path control, so it's not entirely out of the question that they could shake off Tsukiyomi. Of course, that's not an advantage of the jinchuuriki unless they're in full Bijuu mode.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't quite say that. The mechanics and situation were way too circumstantial.
A.) Tsukuyomi is not some prolonged control (necessarily, although it can be). It's on second real time, and complete mental plane domination. 
B.) When Son Goku temporarily resisted said Rinne control, Tobi was actively having to control all the Bjuu which was taking a toll on him. Plus tobi didn't have both Rinne which is confirmed diluted.
C.) IIRC Naruto did something in combat to allow that to happen but I don't necessarily recall what.

If regular MS genjutsu is enough to quell even the Prime Kyuubi, I'm pretty sure Tsukuyomi with it's multi function-ability would do work.


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## MAPSK (Apr 8, 2015)

Tir said:


> -snip-



Whether it's via physical strength or magical power, Gowther gets scaled to the DC of the other Sins. Your argument is invalid. Also, lol@ that meaning NNT has no answer to genjutsu. This is seriously getting pretty hilarious now.


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## Tir (Apr 8, 2015)

MAPSK said:


> _-snip-_



My argument is invalid because I put in something that makes sense? Okay. Now, since my argument is invalid, please show me the page where it is shown that Gowther has a DC instead of just plain ignoring durability yet can be stopped. 

The hilarious one is you, MAPSK. You mentioned that genjutsu is not similar to Gowther's Invasion ability. Given they are different, how would Gowther even dispel the generic genjutsu? He can't disrupt his own chakra flow.  This is what happens when you think magic and chakra work under different mechanism. I conced that RL is beyond what some Naruto character can deal, but Nightmare Teller is just your generic genjutsu. Dreyfus' demon was able to disrupt it, but Kyuubi can't because, apparently, it is not using chkara flow? Guess what? The same argument can be said to Gowther. 

It's funny that to think some people would argue NNT magic =/= chakra, ki, and its other variants. Terrible, just fucking terrible.


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## Tir (Apr 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> NNT Spoilers
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Why wouldn't he? He has energy inside him and genjutsu disrupt that energy.


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## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2015)

Tir said:


> Why wouldn't he? He has energy inside him and genjutsu disrupt that energy.



You have to manipulate chakra(means) in order to affect the cranial nerve (end) which sparks said illusion. Sasori doesn't have a brain, and neither does Gowther seemingly (as he's walked around with his head before) so they can't possibly be affected. 

Plus I don't think NNT characters have chakra.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> A.) Tsukuyomi is not some prolonged control (necessarily, although it can be). It's on second real time, and complete mental plane domination.



That didn't stop Sasuke, whom has less mental resistance from shaking it off.



Dr. White said:


> B.) When Son Goku temporarily resisted said Rinne control, Tobi was actively having to control all the Bjuu which was taking a toll on him. Plus tobi didn't have both Rinne which is confirmed diluted.



It was Kokou who temporarily broke out, and Naruto didn't do anything to instigate it. The fact that he had no problems controlling the edo jins yet had difficulty with the bijuu is proof of their superior mental resistance.

And while it's true that he only had one rinne, it was flat out stated that his outer path ability was > than Nagato's.



Dr. White said:


> C.) IIRC Naruto did something in combat to allow that to happen but I don't necessarily recall what.



No he didn't



Dr. White said:


> If regular MS genjutsu is enough to quell even the Prime Kyuubi, I'm pretty sure Tsukuyomi with it's multi function-ability would do work.



You apparently missed my edit. The flashback proved that regular MS Genjutsu actually cant do that, it requires a unique contract. Obito couldn't do shit to control the nine tails after that contract was broken.


----------



## Chahige (Apr 8, 2015)

Yak said:


> IIs it possible to attempt some scaling here based on Meliodas' twig feat from quite a while ago? [...] I'm sure you're seeing where I'm going with this...


That is unquantifiable though. Unless you can put a number on it via a feat, all you can say is that Meliodas destructive capacity with Lostvayne is superior to an unknown degree.



MAPSK said:


> given that Gowther should be small city level to begin with like the rest of the Sins.


Why should Gowther be scaled to Meliodas? He is clearly physically inferior to Meliodas both in terms of strength and durability (though he makes up for the latter with his inhuman body, as he can function with injuries that'd be fatal for a human), and his Magic power; Invasion, has no physical effect. His arrows cause no physical injuries or destruction and ignores durability & armor, though they can be blocked by external objects.

You can argue that Gowther can compare to Ban physically, but so far Ban has superior feats (going toe-to-toe with Meliodas in hand-to-hand, and laying a beatdown on Red Hendy).



Tir said:


> Well, that'd make the Sins unable to resist genjutsu then.


While it's true that the Sins don't have any defense against Genjutsu or any other mindfuck (as Fraudrin is the only one in NNT who have mindfuck resistance feat), I fail to see how my post helped you reach that conclusion, as what I said had no bearing on it.



Dr. White said:


> Plus I don't think NNT characters have chakra.


They do in matches against Naruto-verse.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> That didn't stop Sasuke, whom has less mental resistance from shaking it off.


If by shake off, you mean be saved by the fact that Itachi was throing the fight then yeah. 3 tomoe Sauce did not break a full power Tsukuyomi. Itachi can control the magnitude of Tsukuyomi (as he has complete control of what happens)which was hinted at when Kakahsi stated Itachi could have killed him had he the mind to with Tsuku.

besides that point, Uchiha blood and sharingan canonically give resistance to MS.



> It was Kokou who temporarily broke out, and Naruto didn't do anything to instigate it. The fact that he had no problems controlling the edo jins yet had difficulty with the bijuu is proof of their superior mental resistance.


Or the Bjuu are just huge masses of chakra 



> And while it's true that he only had one rinne, it was flat out stated that his outer path ability was > than Nagato's.


Scans? 




> You apparently missed my edit. The flashback proved that regular MS Genjutsu actually cant do that, it requires a unique contract. Obito couldn't do shit to control the nine tails after that contract was broken.


No the contract was just used to move Kyuubi over distances, at the convenience of the summoner. MS hypnotizes the Kyuubi just like 3 tomoe hypontized Manda, which was explicitly shown when Madara first approached the Kyuubi. Kishi highlighted to the Kyuubi weakness to sharingan when he had Hebi Sauce completely suppress the Kyuubi during his encounter with Naruto. 

Minato stopped the Kyuubi from being under control of Obito because he severed all chakra links holding them together (which was the summon contract and the hypnosis, since we saw the sharingan tomoe's fade away). Obito didn't go after the Kyuubi again because of Minato.


----------



## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> If by shake off, you mean be saved by the fact that Itachi was throing the fight then yeah. 3 tomoe Sauce did not break a full power Tsukuyomi. Itachi can control the magnitude of Tsukuyomi (as he has complete control of what happens)which was hinted at when Kakahsi stated Itachi could have killed him had he the mind to with Tsuku.



Their is no indication that Itachi was making it easier to break out of Tsukiyomi.



Dr. White said:


> Or the Bjuu are just huge masses of chakra



The hell does this have to do with anything?



Dr. White said:


> Scans?



Huh, cant find it, must have been an early mistranslation. Not that it matters as Obito's version was still > Edo tensei control, which was the point I was getting at anyway.

EDIT: NVM found it.



It was just later on in the fight than I remembered. 



Dr. White said:


> No the contract was just used to move Kyuubi over distances, at the convenience of the summoner. MS hypnotizes the Kyuubi just like 3 tomoe hypontized Manda, which was explicitly shown when Madara first approached the Kyuubi. Kishi highlighted to the Kyuubi weakness to sharingan when he had Hebi Sauce completely suppress the Kyuubi during his encounter with Naruto.



Sasuke only suppressed a small chakra construct of Kyuubi that was trying to seep its way through the seal, that's hardly the same as controlling the whole thing. Nor did Kyuubi even seem to give any shits about it.



Dr. White said:


> Minato stopped the Kyuubi from being under control of Obito because he severed all chakra links holding them together (which was the summon contract and the hypnosis, since we saw the sharingan tomoe's fade away). Obito didn't go after the Kyuubi again because of Minato.



No he didn't, it was explicitly stated that he only severed the contract. The fourth databook also puts emphasis on the contract being needed to fully control the nine tails.


----------



## Iwandesu (Apr 8, 2015)

Chahige said:


> Why should Gowther be scaled to Meliodas? He is clearly physically inferior to Meliodas both in terms of strength and durability (though he makes up for the latter with his inhuman body, as he can function with injuries that'd be fatal for a human), and his Magic power; Invasion, has no physical effect. His arrows cause no physical injuries or destruction and ignores durability & armor, though they can be blocked by external objects.
> You can argue that Gowther can compare to Ban physically, but so far Ban has superior feats (going toe-to-toe with Meliodas in hand-to-hand, and laying a beatdown on Red Hendy).
> .


Are you serious implying a fucking around Mel having a fun arm wrestle with ban can casually one shot gowther ?
Not going to say anything about his arrows but anyone from the sins can be physically scalled to the small city feat while serious.


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## Yak (Apr 8, 2015)

Gowther has few physical feats but what he has is no push-over. Casually dodging Red Demon Hendricksen's attack and redirecting his punches one-handedly without paying much attention... beheading the Armor Giant barehandedly...


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## shade0180 (Apr 8, 2015)

> Not going to say anything about his arrows but anyone from the sins can be physically scalled to the small city feat while serious.



except king.


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## Yak (Apr 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> except king.



At least his durability is somewhere up there.


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## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Their is no indication that Itachi was making it easier to break out of Tsukiyomi.



Uhm,.. except the whole fight. Tobi straight up told Sasuke if Itachi had been serious Sasuke would be dead, and Kishi* explicitly showed both panels of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu being used on Sauce*, to further show us Itachi was not trying to kill Sauce with MS, rather get Oro out while appearing to want to kill him.... sasuke's whole logic was he used MS therefore he was completely serious.



> The hell does this have to do with anything?


Controlling Bjuu in full bjuu mode takes up more energy than controlling the Jin themselves.





> Huh, cant find it, must have been an early mistranslation. Not that it matters as Obito's version was still > Edo tensei control, which was the point I was getting at anyway.
> 
> EDIT: NVM found it.
> 
> ...


Why are we equating Binding techniques with Illusions?



> Sasuke only suppressed a small chakra construct of Kyuubi that was trying to seep its way through the seal, that's hardly the same as controlling the whole thing. Nor did Kyuubi even seem to give any shits about it.


No he completly stopped him fromc oming out and saving Naruto this being after he came out vs Orochimaru and all throughout the arc earlier.

And kyuubi clearly said the presence reminded of Madara and started acting like a bitch...





> No he didn't, it was explicitly stated that he only severed the contract. The fourth databook also puts emphasis on the contract being needed to fully control the nine tails.


Yeah which was held together by chakra. The fact the shari Tomoes immediately dissipated are a clear indicator that the chakra link was broken.

Summoning is not needed to hypnotize it. It's needed to control a summon in a similar fashion just like Sauce had the contract on Manda, yet needed the shari hypnosis to fully override his natural mind.

This was once again shown when *hashirama subdued the Kyuubi hypnosis without actually taking away the contract (as Madara showed when he tried to summon Kyuubi as an edo) just the hypnosis.*


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## shade0180 (Apr 8, 2015)

> At least his durability is somewhere up there




You mean his Damage soak. 

He isn't really tanking attacks like Ban and Mel, He is more of enduring the damage. or let the pillow get hit.


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## Yak (Apr 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> You mean his Damage soak.
> 
> He isn't really tanking attacks like Ban and Mel, He is more of enduring the damage. or let the pillow get hit.



Excuse me, this might be true for Meliodas to some extend but when has Ban ever tanked shit without turning to much 

I mean in that regard even King has better dura because he doesn't start losing limbs left and right after getting hit. Ban has arguably the worst tanking capabilities of all. He's just having good pain resistance.


----------



## MAPSK (Apr 8, 2015)

ITT: Genjutsu/Nen baptism/lolreiatsu crush being special compared to other energy systems somehow is once again a thing and Gowther is both physically inferior to Mel while armwrestling and magically inferior to King's casual DC feats

Fucking 2011 worthy thread here


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## shade0180 (Apr 8, 2015)

> I mean in that regard even King has better dura because he doesn't start losing limbs left and right after getting hit. Ban has arguably the worst tanking capabilities of all. He's just having good pain resistance.



oh right. Ban loses too many body parts to be considered a tank


----------



## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Controlling Bjuu in full bjuu mode takes up more energy than controlling the Jin themselves.



It's a mindfuck ability. That's not a physical feat, it's a mental resistance feat. If it takes more chakra to control them than that just means that Bijuu are harder to mindfuck.



Dr. White said:


> Why are we equating Binding techniques with Illusions?



Because said binding technique is fucking mind control? Outer path mind control > sharingan mind control.



Dr. White said:


> No he completly stopped him fromc oming out and saving Naruto this being after he came out vs Orochimaru and all throughout the arc earlier.



Sasuke didn't save shit, Naruto was already rejecting it on his own. Sasuke just abruptly stopped the argument between them.



Dr. White said:


> And kyuubi clearly said the presence reminded of Madara and started acting like a bitch...



Idle chat is acting like a bitch?



Dr. White said:


> Yeah which was held together by chakra. The fact the shari Tomoes immediately dissipated are a clear indicator that the chakra link was broken.



Which means that it worked because of the fucking contract. Removing the contract wouldn't have affected his control if that wasn't the case.



Dr. White said:


> This was once again shown when *hashirama subdued the Kyuubi hypnosis without actually taking away the contract (as Madara showed when he tried to summon Kyuubi as an edo) just the hypnosis.*



That just means that hashi's suppression is stronger, so again, doesn't prove shit.


----------



## Chahige (Apr 8, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> Are you serious implying a fucking around Mel having a fun arm wrestle with ban can casually one shot gowther ?


I said that Gowther was physically inferior to Meliodas, not that he was far inferior or whatever you read into it, and thus Meliodas physical DC feats isn't applicable to him (we only scale characters that are =/> to the one performing the feats; we don't assign numbers when we have no clear parameters as that'd be arbitrary and guesswork).

Now, if you want to argue that the arm wrestle wasn't a demonstration of Meliodas' and/or Ban's full base strength because it was done for fun, then that's fine. Though that argument would be inadequate, as it being for fun doesn't necessarily means you're holding back: I arm wrestle for fun in good humor sometimes, and I never hold back, nor do my friends.

Though Meliodas probably can replicate Grey Hendrickson's feat of knocking Gowther's head off, given that Meliodas held the edge in hand-to-hand in his fight with Grey Hendrickson. Certainly not casually though, and it's not like it'd "oneshot" Gowther anyway, given his unique body.



iwandesu said:


> anyone from the sins can be physically scalled to the small city feat while serious.


Not King and Merlin; not their physical strength at least.



Yak said:


> At least his durability is somewhere up there.


King's durability is weird, given that he is supposedly very weak physically (Nakaba said he was below Hawk, and Helbram also commented that his physical stamina was inferior to an ordinary human's).


----------



## Yak (Apr 8, 2015)

Chahige said:


> King's durability is weird, given that he is supposedly very weak physically (Nakaba said he was below Hawk, and Helbram also commented that his physical stamina was inferior to an ordinary human's).



It's not that weird keeping in mind that base stats can be raised by high concentration levels. A serious King's power rises to quite an unheard of level, even Meliodas commented on it during the Capital Invasion arc. When he is focused, he can endure a fuckton of damage. Similarely to how even high tiers can be knocked out if they are caught off-guard or unfocused.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> It's a mindfuck ability. That's not a physical feat, it's a mental resistance feat. If it takes more chakra to control them than that just means that Bijuu are harder to mindfuck.


It's not really a mindfuck in a traditional sense. It's just pure control via sticking chakra rods into someone and overpowering them with special chakra.

Nagato had to be completely immobile just to control six bodies, and using heavy jutsu put a huge strain on him, and would cause him to cough up blood and what not. 

tobi had 5 bjuu.....



> Because said binding technique is fucking mind control? Outer path mind control > sharingan mind control.


See above. Not really mind control rather than complete control.





> Sasuke didn't save shit, Naruto was already rejecting it on his own. Sasuke just abruptly stopped the argument between them.








> Idle chat is acting like a bitch?


I was exxageratting, but he did hype him and call his eyes evil. The bitch part came up at another Madara point when Naruto was trying to get Kyuubi to get along with him.





> Which means that it worked because of the fucking contract. Removing the contract wouldn't have affected his control if that wasn't the case.


No it fucking doesn't. It means the link binding their chakra was severed. The contract is held together by chakra/blood link. Minato ended that link. As a result all subsequent chakra links were broken. Guess what genjutsu relies on? A chakra link.

1 + 1 = 2.

You don't need a fucking contrat to do this


you need it to transport the thing lest you want to ride around on Kyuubi all over the place...





> That just means that hashi's suppression is stronger, so again, doesn't prove shit.


No it obviously means that Kyuubi control over his mind is due to hypnosis. By your logic Hashi would have had to release the contract since that's what apparently gives people power over the Kyuubi (which it doesn't). He didn't. He released the sharingan hypnosis, and despite the contract remaining, Madara lost control.

You think if Madara had successfully summoned the Kyuubi to his side as an edo he wouldn't have to rehypnotize him? Cause that's stupid.

Contract was never stated to give power over said summon, only case that isn't true is Edo Tensei, and that's because the target is dead. Hell fucking Oro had to give Manda, like hundreds of sacrfices a day just so he'd fuck with him....



shade0180 said:


> It's not just the cranial nerve....... the only time this happened was by Tsunade and that was not a genjutsu....
> 
> and if it is just cranial nerve, genjutsu wouldn't be able to show you an illusion because the eyes are a part of the central nervous system of the brain and not the cranial nerve....


The whole point was
Opponents chakra => Chakra network => Brain => Cranial Nerve => Illusion.

Genjutsu would not work on Sasori as there is a clear biological component to the mix which requires the fine chakra control. 




> Civilians and animals can be put in a genjutsu. but they don't have chakra... Yes, they don't have chakra...  they have physical energy and mental energy (Like every other shit in every other fiction)... which is an aspect of chakra...


This is what we call a retcon my friend. Apparently Sage gave everyone chakra but not everyone can use it...

But chakra is suppossed to be contrived mix of physical/mental.....

Which doesn't make sense...at all....

So I stick with the original biological explanation of genjutsu and how it affects people.

And as a side note animals do have chakra networks hence why they can use jutsu, and be affected by genjutsu


----------



## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Hunting for DB scans so i'll drop the sharingan stuff for now.



Dr. White said:


> It's not really a mindfuck in a traditional sense. It's just pure control via sticking chakra rods into someone and overpowering them with special chakra.
> 
> Nagato had to be completely immobile just to control six bodies, and using heavy jutsu put a huge strain on him, and would cause him to cough up blood and what not.
> 
> tobi had 5 bjuu.....



The fuck?



Yeah, clearly the chains that are binding their mental state is physical.

It's not puppetry bullshit like what sasori does it is blatantly effecting their minds.


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Hunting for DB scans so i'll drop the sharingan stuff for now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's insertion of the rods so Tobi can use his chakra to control them, and binding that stops them from physically or mentally doing anything about it. But Sage King inside is still himself and capable of talking to Naruto. It isn't a mindfuck in so much that his actual consciousness was warped and controlled like what Tsukuyomi did to Kabuto.

Also as I said earlier, the problem with Tsukyomi is the time aspect. The best way to counter Tsukyomi would be to have sharingan and genjutsu skill on Itachi's level(so that you could try and reverse his control on the mental plane) or by not getting hit with it in the first place. lol god tiers nonwithstanding.

Since sharingan inherently has an edge over Bjuu in the first place it's crazy to think MS Tsukuyomi couldn't affect them.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 8, 2015)

> This is what we call a retcon my friend. Apparently Sage gave everyone chakra but not everyone can use it...chakra but not everyone can use it...



He did gave everyone the means to use chakra.. doesn't mean there are already chakra inside them as explained by the sage he taught them ninshu which in turn became the basis of ninjutsu... there's a chakra system in everybody which is probably what was given by Hagoromo.. .. 




> *And as a side note animals do have chakra networks*



can you produce a panel proof of this..


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## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> It's insertion of the rods so Tobi can use his chakra to control them, and binding that stops them from physically* or mentally *doing anything about it. But Sage King inside is still himself and capable of talking to Naruto. It isn't a mindfuck in so much that his actual consciousness was warped and controlled like what Tsukuyomi did to Kabuto..



Newsflash, that's mind fuck. He's not physically forcing them to do all that with his chakra.  He's mind controlling them to do this stuff. The fact that the four tails mind is being bound is proof of that.

Which circles back to what I was saying. Outer path > Edo Tensei control = Koto > Tsukiyomi. Even going by the "bijuu are specifically weak against the sharingan" crap it doesn't take away from the fact that they have demonstrated mental resistance against shit that's superior to what the sharingan can do.


----------



## AgentAAA (Apr 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> can you produce a panel proof of this..



Pretty sure Akamaru being able to do techs with kiba's proof of that.
though that could just be ninja dogs.
also didn't bunta contribute his chakra so that nardo and him could become the ninetales?


----------



## LazyWaka (Apr 8, 2015)

Didn't Kaguya use genjutsu on people before they even had chakra?

Not sure what's being argued right now honestly.


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 8, 2015)

> Didn't Kaguya use genjutsu on people before they even had chakra?
> 
> Not sure what's being argued right now honestly.




To put a person that has no chakra or network in a genjutsu,,,

Basically gowther....



> Didn't Kaguya use genjutsu on people before they even had chakra?



That also means their chakra network isn't there yet. since hagoromo hasn't provided it yet.




> Pretty sure Akamaru being able to do techs with kiba's proof of that.
> though that could just be ninja dogs.





> also didn't bunta contribute his chakra so that nardo and him could become the ninetales?



 pretty sure they have chakra.(Combination of physical and mental energy) and we know they know how to mix them.. what Dr. white need to provide is their non-existant network..


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## Tir (Apr 8, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> To put a person that has no chakra or network in a genjutsu,,,
> 
> Basically gowther....
> ..


GG NNT. They obviously can't dispel genjutsu. They don't even know how to disrupt chakra flow. 
GG OP. Same shit.
GG anyone that can't use chakra. 
GG Goku

since lolgenjutsu is a thing now, lolreaitsucrush is also a thing now?


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## Iwandesu (Apr 8, 2015)

reiatsu crush is a thing
is just that it only affect people that are way weaker than you so using this on battledome is moot


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## Tir (Apr 8, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> reiatsu crush is a thing
> is just that it only affect people that are way weaker than you so using this on battledome is moot



back then lolreaitsucrushbwas never a thing. Seems like time has changed. Anyway, reiatsu crush will affect anyone who doesn't have reaitsu (spiritual energy). 

And chakra is the energy used to connect physical and spiritual energy.
So long as a character has energy, genjutsu will work on them. Disrupting them tho, you need to disrupt the combination of physical and spiritual energy using chakra. Basically, aside from some truly strong verse genjutsu will work like wonder. 

That's if we are nitpicking everything.


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## AgentAAA (Apr 9, 2015)

Tir said:


> back then lolreaitsucrushbwas never a thing. Seems like time has changed. Anyway, reiatsu crush will affect anyone who doesn't have reaitsu (spiritual energy).
> .



ehh, reiatsu crush is pretty much just treated as a gravity aura that affects beings without the physical stats to handle it.


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## Vicotex (Apr 9, 2015)

Itachi did something like reiatsucrush in part one the first time him and kisame visited konoha


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> To put a person that has no chakra or network in a genjutsu,,,
> 
> Basically gowther....
> 
> ...




How idiotic and pathetic is this post? 

You guys take this kid seriously?

Chakra pathways or network is necessary for the casting of jutsu as it's the equivalent of having blood vessels or a circulatory system.

How the fuck can they use jutsu through their mouths and weave hand-signs if they don't have a way of channeling chakra? Are you stupid?


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## Brightsteel (Apr 10, 2015)

....Why is there an argument going on about whether or not Nanatsu no Taizai characters have Chakra-networks?


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

> How the fuck can they use jutsu through their mouths and weave hand-signs if they don't have a way of channeling chakra? Are you stupid?



Same way Sasori can use jutsu's.... Sasori technically has no pathway being a full puppet.. He hasn't shown being unable to use ninjutsu...



> ..Why is there an argument going on about whether or not Nanatsu no Taizai characters have Chakra-networks?



lol genjutsu


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## MAPSK (Apr 10, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> ....Why is there an argument going on about whether or not Nanatsu no Taizai characters have Chakra-networks?



Because this thread is made of stupid.


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## Brightsteel (Apr 10, 2015)

> lol genjutsu



Doesn't the equalization rule already cover this?


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

It does but people tend to argue strawman..


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Same way Sasori can use jutsu's.... Sasori technically has no pathway being a full puppet.. He hasn't shown being unable to use ninjutsu...


Sasori is a completely different case. You can't use an exception as a rule....

Sasori was a puppet master who sealed his sentience and chakra into a core, which then connected to his puppet body allowing him the use of chakra and consciousness inside the puppet body.... You can clearly see it rooting itself.


Also


Max Thunder said:


> *Chakra pathways or network is necessary for the casting of jutsu as it's the equivalent of having blood vessels or a circulatory system.*
> 
> How the fuck can they use jutsu through their mouths and weave hand-signs if they don't have a way of channeling chakra?


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

Where's his pathway.  the core is not the pathway

Like I said exception or not we have proof of character(s) using chakra and jutsu and being affected by jutsu's without an existing chakra pathway.

We already know they can create chakra since chakra by extension is just a combination of Spirit and physical energy.

so as long as you have those two and knows the technique to create chakra you have access to chakra... so it didn't contradict what I said 
before.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 10, 2015)

Shade c'mon it's located in that core in his chest most likely.



I mean how could you channel chakra with no path way to channel it through?


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Where's his pathway.  the core is not the pathway



Yes it is. It clearly houses his soul and functions as a conduit for his control over anything the core possesses, which is why they had to seal the core itself to truly stop Sasori. The puppet body obviously doesn't have any internal organs such as veins, arteries, or a chakra network, but it maintains the general shape and appearance superficially. 

As I said, Sasori is an exception because he himself crafted a physical body and then sealed his soul in a core capable of transporting itself to multiple host, and able to use chakra via it's small dendrite looking organs. 

That does you no justice towards proving the claim animals don't have a chakra system, or disproving my claim that they do.

Edit: Just saw your edit


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

> Shade c'mon it's located in that core in his chest most likely.



the pathway is located in the whole body unless sasori put his whole body in that small core of a box that wouldn't be possible


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## Chahige (Apr 10, 2015)

Tir said:


> since lolgenjutsu is a thing now


Genjutsu is a Mindfuck; hax, and like all other hax you need specific resistance feat to it, no matter how strong you are, in order to guard against it. 

That has always been a thing.



Yak said:


> IIt's not that weird keeping in mind that base stats can be raised by high concentration levels.


As when we discussed this earlier, I interpret this raise of powerlevel as an increase of Spirit (which, by its nature, would be expected to be influenced by circumstances) and/or Magic Power (which was never portrayed as something static, but something you can pull out more or less of). Not an actual change in the physical body, making it more durable and stronger, because that'd feel weird, and would encroach upon abilities/powers specifically designed to that effect (Ban's Physical Hunt, Escanor's Cycle-Of-Life, Meliodas' Demon Modes). Admittedly, I am biased in this regard, as I dislike Nakama Power/Weight/Power of Feelings having a tangible affect on characters capacities.

That aside though, while Power of Love can raise power levels, it's improbable that it can raise it to a great degree. Gowther observed that Ban and Meliodas when they fought at the capital had a Power of Love increase of 650 and 430, respectively. Meliodas' smaller increase in that instance also suggest that the boost is proportional to character's current power level (Ban was fresh while Meliodas was wounded and weary at the time, having just been stabbed in the back by Red Hendricksen's Acid Sword and coming out of a fight with Gilthunder, Hendricksen and Vivian). Additionally, Meliodas' Demon Mark gave an overall increase of 1030, and I personally feel that Power of Love is highly unlikely to exceed that.

So, it's questionable that Power of Love would be able to make King tough enough to withstand multiple Albion attacks, if he is supposed to be very physically weak normally (weaker than Hawk, and even compared to a normal human by Helbram).

Note that I'm not questioning the durability King showed against the Albion, I only find it weird when considering his overall portrayal.



Yak said:


> IA serious King's power rises to quite an unheard of level, even Meliodas commented on it during the Capital Invasion arc.


I always assumed that the characters referred to Magic Power when they sensed each others "Power", since Magic Power almost always are referred to as just "Power" [, , , ], whereas powerlevels are outright called powerlevels.


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> the pathway is located in the whole body unless sasori put his whole body in that small core of a box that wouldn't be possible



there has to be some sort of connection between the core where the chakra is concentrated and whatever part of the puppet body he is utilising to use jutsu be they feet, hands or mouth and that connection is what you'd call the chakra network.

Otherwise, how do you think the chakra from the core gets to his body extremities? Magic?


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

That's what you need to prove, you're the one who is proposing it, 

inb4 objects has chakra networks..


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2015)

We don't have to prove shit about Sasori because as I've been saying this whole time he is a canoncial, author confirmed and contrived exception to this rule due to his Puppeteer immortality and his Core Fuinjutsu.

You need to show how your argument of trying to equate Sasori (which once again is a exception) with other biological things like Summons, and Ninken who can use jutsu/chakra but supposedly don't have the biological chakra network. 

All Evidence is in my favor.


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> That's what you need to prove, you're the one who is proposing it,
> 
> inb4 objects has chakra networks..



But who says chakra networks are exclusive to human bodies/anatomies?

You're the one who's claiming that, not me. Just like you claim animals don't have chakra pathways.

I'll give you an example though since you're kinda dense, clones aren't human bodies and there's panels of their chakra networks...

And I'm not talking about Naruto clones either but other clones such as water clones, wood clones ect. 

To mold chakra you need chakra pathways so if you mold chakra you have chakra pathways what's so hard to understand? You're outright going against the manga by claiming that this statement isn't true so technically the burden of proof falls upon you not me.


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

> But who says chakra networks are exclusive to human bodies/anatomies?



The manga did... It started with kaguya which was shared by Hagoromo to the humans..



Unless you can provide a scan where Hagoromo shared this networks to the animals then they don't exist. 



inb4 the bijuus are animals..



> I'll give you an example though since you're kinda dense, clones aren't human bodies and there's panels of their chakra networks...



Er yea except all clones are copies of the original 




> We don't have to prove shit about Sasori because as I've been saying this whole time he is a canoncial, author confirmed and contrived exception to this rule due to his Puppeteer immortality and his Core Fuinjutsu.
> 
> You need to show how your argument of trying to equate Sasori (which once again is a exception) with other biological things like Summons, and Ninken who can use jutsu/chakra but supposedly don't have the biological chakra network.



and we did have humans with no chakra network existing before Kaguya.

and Hagoromo only shared it to humans so why would animal get this networks which started with Hagoromo...



You guys are the one claiming shit here so you are the ones who need to prove they exist...



> All Evidence is in my favor.



What evidence are you talking about? you didn't provide any..
so there's really nothing in your favor...


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Er yea except all clones are copies of the original



Not anatomical copies though, simply physical, basically only their exterior is copied considering how water, logs or whatever are used to make the clones they lack on things like organs and blood and yet, they retain chakra networks.

Therefore, your point has been proven wrong.

Anything else I can help with today?

Also the fact that you didn't reply to the rest of the post about going against the manga just outright suggests you have no way of refuting said point.

Concession accepted


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

. That wasn't proof the network exist though it just means there are ways for chakra to be move/molded without the need for the network to exist..

Also did you guys forgot Nature chakra..It is being moved without a network..

inb4 the planet has a fucking network this is getting ridiculous 


 I don't need to refute every shit you guys are sprouting since you guys haven't provided proof on your shitty claims


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> .



Yeh that's what I thought...

If you would like to escort yourself out of here after such an idiotic display. You'd retain your dignity at the very least.


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

. You are the one being idiotic here...

There's also the kyuubi shroud which is pure chakra which is molded without the fucking network... seriously


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> . That wasn't proof the network exist though it just means there are ways for chakra to be move/molded without the need for the network to exist..
> 
> Also did you guys forgot Nature chakra..It is being moved without a network..
> 
> ...



Okay since you decided to edit your post.

1- What the fuck are you talking about? I just told you clones have chakra networks, they aren't human, copies using inanimate objects.

2- Prove this. The manga clearly claims that chakra points in the chakra network are needed to cast jutsu, You're the one saying there's ways that this can be avoided where's your proof?

Mine is here.

Even jounin (or in other words, very skilled ninja) can only release from one part of their bodies while using jutsu ect ect... 

Chapter 101 if you can't see



And 3 - It's called Nature *ENERGY* not Nature chakra.
Secondly the explanation as to its usage is given in the manga. 

I'll explain it here for your very basic mind, basically, nature energy is blended with the users' chakra.

The fact that you said: 



> Also did you guys forgot Nature chakra..It is being moved without a network..
> 
> *inb4 the planet has a fucking network this is getting ridiculous*


 
Just shows how fucking ignorant you are.




> There's also the kyuubi shroud which is pure chakra which is molded without the fucking network... seriously



Oh God you just keep digging yourself a deeper hole here.

Show me a panel of Kyuubi chakra moving around on it's own, attached to no entity.

Guess who's chakra network it's blending with and using.


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## shade0180 (Apr 10, 2015)

> Even jounin (or in other words, very skilled ninja) can only release from one part of their bodies while using jutsu ect ect..



And yet we have 2 handed rasengan released from two different part of Naruto's body which is already a contradiction.

kaiten releasing chakra from every pore around the body...

Yea the manga loves to contradict shit 

There is also Rasengan as an example being molded outside of the body

inb4 outside the palm has a network.


point is 

molding chakra isn't limited to inside the network so yea the network can go fuck itself


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## Max Thunder (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> And yet we have 2 handed rasengan released from two different part of Naruto's body which is already a contradiction.
> 
> kaiten releasing chakra from every pore around the body...
> 
> ...



Do you have zero reading comprehension?

Clearly you do since you don't remember half of the things that happen in the manga lol

How does "*Even jounin* can't release chakra from two parts of their body" equate to "*Nobody* in the entire world can release chakra from two or more points at once".

The manga may contradict itself, sure, but not in the example you just provided.

Also you're just plain basic. I'm not even going to ask what you mean because the rest of those things you've just stated are just...  Fuck it I'll just let other people deal with you


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## Alucardemi (Apr 10, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> inb4 objects has chakra networks..



Well, maybe some do. I mean, if you get down to it, a chakra network is a physical structure that channels and kneads chakra, and Sasori's core clearly does just that.

The question would be if Sasori's puppet eyes would allow chakra to pass onto the device and scramble the flows there. That also goes for sound-based genjutsu.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 11, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Also did you guys forgot Nature chakra..It is being moved without a network..



Natural energy isn't chakra. It can be combined with it to become a more powerful chakra, but isn't chakra itself.

Anyway, occams razor would suggest that summons do have chakra networks.


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## Tir (Apr 11, 2015)

Max Thunder said:


> Not anatomical copies though, simply physical, basically only their exterior is copied considering how water, logs or whatever are used to make the clones they lack on things like organs and blood and yet, they retain chakra networks.
> 
> Therefore, your point has been proven wrong.



clones have blood and naturally, organs.



> It does but people tend to argue strawman..


Indeed.



> Genjutsu is a Mindfuck; hax, and like all other hax you need specific resistance feat to it, no matter how strong you are, in order to guard against it.
> 
> That has always been a thing.


indeed. Th problem, however, starts when we ignore the equalization. Like, different mechanism of chakra, reiatsu, magic and such bullshit. 

And lol@ Dr. White ignoring the fact that people can still be subjugated to genjutsu despite not having any kind of chakra before 
Like I said, chakra is the thing that people in Naruto use to combine their spirit and physical energy. So long as someone has energy, they can be put under illusion. Anyway, that's what you get for ignoring the rule of equivalence.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 11, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Anyway, occams razor would suggest that summons do have chakra networks.



Yeah, they most definitely do. Sasuke has cast genjutsu over Manda and all the Tailed Beasts at certain points.

That would be impossible if there was no flow of chakra to control, and one needs a network to have one of those.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 11, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Yeah, they most definitely do. Sasuke has cast genjutsu over Manda and all the Tailed Beasts at certain points.
> 
> *That would be impossible if there was no flow of chakra to control, and one needs a network to have one of those*.



Actually no. Kaguya used Genjutsu on people before they had that.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 11, 2015)

She did?

I can't tell. The whole timeline of the Otsutsuki events is broken to me. Do you have a reference?


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## LazyWaka (Apr 11, 2015)

Kaguya was stated to have used Genjutsu on people.

RS didn't give people chakra until after he became the Juubi Jin (after Kaguya was sealed.)


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## Alucardemi (Apr 11, 2015)

Chapter? Databook? I'd love to look it up.

Either way, Infinite Tsukuyomi could be argued to perhaps be an outlier. Rinnegan genjutsu overall seems to work diffrently, at least. More permanent in its control. Not sure how, I'd have to review the pages.


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## LazyWaka (Apr 11, 2015)

Databook. Don't feel like hunting through the hundreds of pages in the databook thread to find it again, though.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 11, 2015)

Fair enough


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## Tir (Apr 11, 2015)

> That would be impossible if there was no flow of chakra to control, and one needs a network to have one of those.





> However, the people did not use chakra in the way the Sage had hoped, instead using it to *connect *their inner spiritual and physical energies.



Basically, it is something that used to connect energies.Basically, so long as someone has energy, it'd be possible to be trapped in genjutsu.
Anyway, it was explained by Hagoromo to Naruto in chapter 580-


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## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 11, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Kaguya was stated to have used Genjutsu on people.


. Keep in mind that _Mugen Tsukuyomi_'s purpose was to create an army for Kaguya and that it caught animals too. [, ]


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## Dr. White (Apr 11, 2015)

I think it should be noted that Gowther's ability was able to pierce Galan and he didn't even notice.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Apr 11, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> The puppet body obviously doesn't have any internal organs such as veins, arteries, or a chakra network, but it maintains the general shape and appearance superficially.


That may not be entirely true. _Hitokugutsu_ ('Human Puppets') are made from living people through a special method to retain their chakra [] and Sasori turned himself into a _Hitokugutsu_. []
As Ukon explains, the chakra network is woven into tissues down to the protein-level, [] so Sasori's chakra network isn't completely intact but should still be present in his puppet body.


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## Alucardemi (Apr 11, 2015)

Vaatu said:


> . Keep in mind that _Mugen Tsukuyomi_'s purpose was to create an army for Kaguya and that it caught animals too. [, ]



Well, that settles that, then.


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