# Final Fantasy Villains vs Disney Villians



## The810kid (Feb 16, 2010)

Similar to the thread comparing and contrasting one piece villains to dragonballs the same is being applied to this thread. So which villians are better.


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## Nimademe (Feb 16, 2010)

Disney Villains don't die, they can't lose.


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## Shoddragon (Feb 16, 2010)

thought this match was a fight. I was about to come and say "jaffar and genie rape".


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## Nimademe (Feb 16, 2010)

Anyway, I like Disney villains better, they let me boo on someone even when I was 5.


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## Fei (Feb 16, 2010)

The Disney villains are generally pretty stereotypical archetypes and they generally have similar one dimensional goals.  The biggest reason for this deals with there really not being time in a Disney film to develop an antagonist when time is being spent developing the protagonist.  The villains are the same every time that they're seen.  Theres also the matter of Disney's target demographic being children under 12.  A child isn't going to understand a villain with complex motives.  They get that this character is good and they're rooting for him/her and this character is evil and needs to go down.  If you gave the villain a complex motive then the kids would just get confused.

Conversely, Final Fantasy villains are developed over the course of an entire game and the target market is older so they generally have more complex motives.  Sephiroth, Seifer, Seymour, Sin, Kuja and Kefka all come to mind as being pretty complex and reasonably well fleshed out throughout the game.  Conversely though, Final Fantasy has a lot of terrible villains that are poorly developed with little storyline time spent on them.  Ultimecia, Vayne, and Necron are the best examples of that that I can think of.

As for what villains are better, its a difficult comparison because the target demographics are so different.  You know what you're going to get with a disney villain, they're irredeemable evil people without any real depth who the audience loves to hate.  Final Fantasy's villains are more diverse (though I will conceed that they generally have similar goals) and its easier to sympathize with them and understand some of their motivations and I think that that makes them better villains for the demographic that I'm in anyway.


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## martryn (Feb 16, 2010)

Final Fantasy villains are all queers and have motives that don't make fucking sense.  Disney takes it, I think.


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## The810kid (Feb 16, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> thought this match was a fight. I was about to come and say "jaffar and genie rape".



I thought about making this a battle as well as a villain debate but aside from Jafar I can't think of one Disney villain who could help agaist Ultimecia Exdeath and all the others in FF maybe Maleficient.


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## Mappa Douji (Feb 16, 2010)

martryn said:


> Final Fantasy villains are all queers and have motives that don't make fucking sense.  Disney takes it, I think.



Well it does take actual intelligence to appreciate Final Fantasy.


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## paulatreides0 (Feb 16, 2010)

martryn said:


> Final Fantasy villains are all queers and have motives that don't make fucking sense.  Disney takes it, I think.



Actually 12's "villain" actually made more or less sense....even if the game was bad....


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## Shoddragon (Feb 16, 2010)

The810kid said:


> I thought about making this a battle as well as a villain debate but aside from Jafar I can't think of one Disney villain who could help agaist Ultimecia Exdeath and all the others in FF maybe Maleficient.



jafar and genie are a LOT stronger than you think. in more than one match jafar has won by flinging the planet into the sun.


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## RWB (Feb 16, 2010)

Gorthan>Final Fantasy.

PKNA solos.


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## firework (Feb 16, 2010)

its hard to decide which are the better villains. Theres not really a scale to measure them on. In terms of dimensions and how well fleshed out they are, probably FF's who are rather complex at times. But Disney's villains tend to me more completely evil and usually more logical.


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## Shoddragon (Feb 16, 2010)

well although this might not help, final fantasy villains ( the series in general) are highly wanked. noone really wanks disney villains. also, disney villains are more memorable IMO. everyone knows jafar, but not everyone knows people like exdeath or ultimecia or sephiroth.


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## Vanthebaron (Feb 16, 2010)

Void+lv3 fire spell on the lamp+speed rape with sephi, I think FF has this one


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## Candy (Feb 16, 2010)

FF villians have keflka and sepiroth (they're game characters, I dont think I have to spell them right) Villains like that who are truly evil and burn down cites and try to enslave the human race are the real villains.


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## zenieth (Feb 16, 2010)

I'll agree with kefka, but sephiroth,
 hahahahahahahahahahah 
bwahahahahahahahahahaha 
ahahahahahahhahaaha

No


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## Candy (Feb 16, 2010)

sure, why not, sephiroths evil right? Disney villains are just angry


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## zenieth (Feb 16, 2010)

Sephiroth is mentally unstable, he can classify as evil, but he's done nothing near what kefka does, I may not like ff6 but I can respect the level of pure insane and evil that kefka is.


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## Stroev (Feb 16, 2010)

Golbez vs. Scar

GO GO GO


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## The810kid (Feb 16, 2010)

Candy said:


> sure, why not, sephiroths evil right? Disney villains are just angry



Scar killed his own Brother in cold blood and was willing to kill his nephew and probably raped Sarobi and other lionesses and sent the pridelands to hell fucking up the ecosystem I'm sure their was casualties that more than anger scar had pride envy greed lust wrath he's damn near a 7 sin character


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## Candy (Feb 16, 2010)

lolz im pretty sure kefka did to. Making hot chicks your slaves is pretty lusty, and killing people and buring down crap +more is pretty bad as well.


Scar was just an angst teen with an army of hyenas.


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## South of Hell (Feb 16, 2010)

Sin says hi.


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## The810kid (Feb 17, 2010)

Candy said:


> lolz im pretty sure kefka did to. Making hot chicks your slaves is pretty lusty, and killing people and buring down crap +more is pretty bad as well.
> 
> 
> Scar was just an angst teen with an army of hyenas.



To be fair Kefka was only that way because of the magicite experiments and Scar has a musical number to show how evil he was


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## Piekage (Feb 17, 2010)

Nimademe said:


> Disney Villains don't die, they can't lose.


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## Candy (Feb 17, 2010)

South of Hell said:


> Sin says hi.



True, you cant forget about sin because hes "sin"


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Feb 17, 2010)

Sin was a terrible villian and I actually *like* FFX. When a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) like Seymour is a better villian than you are, it's not lookin' too good.

Personally, I'd go with the Disney villians. Scar, Demona(looking back, she was one evil bitch), David Xanatos, Ghengis Khan, Negaduck, Ursula, and Jafar can usually make me go "Damn, that's some evil shit right there." while I generally laugh at most FF villians.


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## ChINaMaN1472 (Feb 17, 2010)

BUT SEPHIROTH IZ MADE OF WINZ!!!

A lot of FF villains start out pretty cool, then they go to shit about 1/4 of the way through or so.  Kefka was probably the best one.

Most of Disney's are fairly stereotypical, considering most were aimed at kids, but Demona and David Xanatos were pretty cunningly evil.


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## Mappa Douji (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm sorry but Kefka was probably the worst FF villain. Kuja was my favorite. Despite his choice of clothing.


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## Narcissus (Feb 17, 2010)

Though I do like FF villains, I have to go with Disney villains, by far. They were simply more appealing and interesting to me.


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## Shoddragon (Feb 17, 2010)

lol.l



> Fun fact: Hyena's jaws are strong enough to crush bone. We of course have no way of knowing which part of Scar's body their teeth ripped through first, so we're forced to assume it was his dick.



made me lol.


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## SHM (Feb 17, 2010)

A popularity contest of "FF vs *Disney*" in an *american* forum.

I wonder who will win... 



			
				zenieth said:
			
		

> Sephiroth is mentally unstable, he can classify as evil, but he's done nothing near what kefka does, I may not like ff6 but I can respect the level of pure insane and evil that kefka is.



I agree that Kefka is more evil than Sephiroth, but what one villain does in his/her respective story have nothing to do with how evil he/she is. After all, the actions of a villain are related to the opportunity and resources presented to them.
I mean, if you put Zemus/Ex-Death/Cloud-of-Darkness/whoever in front of the Warring Triad, you would have a similar situation to what happened in FFVI.


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## Narcissus (Feb 17, 2010)

They should update and add Doctor Facilier's death to the list. It was actually quite creepy.


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## very bored (Feb 17, 2010)

SHM said:


> A popularity contest of "FF vs *Disney*" in an *american* forum.
> 
> I wonder who will win...



Technically, this is a *german* forum.  

I thought the Disney villains were easier to be hated, but the FF villains were more interesting.


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## Platinum (Feb 18, 2010)

Disney Villains easily.


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## Fullmetal83 (Feb 19, 2010)

Hades say hi. Show me any Final Fantasy Villains that can kill a God.


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Feb 19, 2010)

Um, in Fantasia the Devil was the villain.  Im fairly sure noone in FF is beating that.



Watch that if you like Disney villains its alright.


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## Narcissus (Feb 19, 2010)

People really should read the OP before posting.


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## C. Hook (Feb 20, 2010)

Disney also has the Devil, so that issue is moot.



SHM said:


> A popularity contest of "FF vs *Disney*" in an *american* forum.
> 
> I wonder who will win...



This is an anime forum for weeaboos.

Normally, the Disney villains would lose. However, the OBD is a bit more balanced.


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## SHM (Feb 21, 2010)

Fullmetal83 said:


> Hades say hi. Show me any Final Fantasy Villains that can kill a God.



And Kefka says "hi" too.



NarutoWinsByDefault said:


> Um, in Fantasia the Devil was the villain.  Im fairly sure noone in FF is beating that.





C. Hook said:


> Disney also has the Devil, so that issue is moot.



Mateus Palamecia had the Devil working for him, after he took over the afterlife(Hell and Heaven).
Just saying.



> This is an anime forum for weeaboos.
> 
> Normally, the Disney villains would lose. However, the OBD is a bit more balanced.



There is nothing balanced about a popularity contest.


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## C. Hook (Feb 21, 2010)

Comparing any Final Fantasy Devil to Chernabog is like comparing a cherry bomb to a nuke. 



SHM said:


> There is nothing balanced about a popularity contest.



Then don't bother posting. Fucking hypocrite. "Oh noez, OBD is so biased cus they're American, but there's no such thing as balance." If you think FF villains are better, then please, just say it and don't bother trying to backtrack.


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## ~BLAZxBLUE~ (Feb 21, 2010)

I prefer Disney villains.


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## SHM (Feb 21, 2010)

C. Hook said:


> Comparing any Final Fantasy Devil to Chernabog is like comparing a cherry bomb to a nuke.



Your bias is showing.



> Then don't bother posting. Fucking hypocrite. "Oh noez, OBD is so biased cus they're American, but there's no such thing as balance." If you think FF villains are better, then please, just say it and don't bother trying to backtrack.



Just stating the facts, dude. Disney in general is more popular than FF, so it's pretty obvious that their cliche and 1-dimensional villains with no backstory or depth, would win a popularity contest. 
Disney villains are much more well-known and loved(due to nostalgia of their older fans, most of the time) than other fictional villains who actually are more complex and interesting than them. More so by americans(most members in this forum) than any other people.

If you cannot accept that, too bad for you.

Ah, and you can stop crying now.


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## C. Hook (Feb 21, 2010)

SHM said:


> Your bias is showing.



Good. Why not show some character?



SHM said:


> Just stating the facts, dude. Disney in general is more popular than FF, so it's pretty obvious that their cliche and 1-dimensional villains with no backstory or depth, would win a popularity contest.
> Disney villains are much more well-known and loved(due to nostalgia of their older fans, most of the time) than other fictional villains who actually are more complex and interesting than them. More so by americans(the majority in this forum) than any other people.
> 
> If you cannot accept that, too bad for you.
> ...



Because this is totally not a forum based on a Japanese manga.

It's amusing how you call us biased and yet are so high and mighty.

Also, I'm glad that Exdeath, Ultimecia, and Cloud of Darkness are such "complex" characters.


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## Stroev (Feb 21, 2010)

Personally I enjoyed the complexity of FF villians.

Though Disney is unforgettable.


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## Narcissus (Feb 22, 2010)

SHM said:


> Just stating the facts, dude. Disney in general is more popular than FF, so it's pretty obvious that their cliche and 1-dimensional villains with no backstory or depth, would win a popularity contest.
> Disney villains are much more well-known and loved(due to nostalgia of their older fans, most of the time) than other fictional villains who actually are more complex and interesting than them. More so by americans(most members in this forum) than any other people.
> 
> If you cannot accept that, too bad for you.
> ...



Backstory is something that us very important for a villain to have. If they lack it, then they usyally need something to make up for it. disney villains usually make up for it big time with their actions throughout the movies. It's what makes them interesting.

Also, it really seems like you're the one crying here.


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## Onomatopoeia (Feb 22, 2010)

Final Fantasy villains don't get catchy musical numbers.


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## Xaosin (Feb 22, 2010)

The Genie from Aladdin can BRF most of the FF villains, and there's nothing they can do to hurt him.

But Scar is awesome, so I say Disney is better.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

Bumping because I can.

Now I don't normally like bland, one-dimensional villains as most see. That's why Disney Villains' kewl doesn't make them better than actually n-depth antagonists. I like Jafar and Scar as much as the next guy but given teh choice between their awesome and villains who actually make me think and explore ideas...I'm gonna take the latter every time.

While the majority of FF's antagonists are stereotypical "For the Evulz" bad guys, there are several with genuine depth. Sephiroth (yes, stop being a hater. You're as bad as fanboys) had this initially. He wanted to avenge his destroyed people.

Then he kinda gave up on that and just wanted to be a god... So that was kinda crappy.

But then we have Kuja who, as far as I'm concerned, is a superior villain to anything Disney has. Why? Because Kuja is sympathetic while beign monstrous. The guy engineered an entire race for the purpose of genocide. Not only did they solely exist to massacre people, they were going to die themselves. He made Vivi's people as disposable pawns and laughed at it with the most cruel satisfaction.

Then you learn he too is just a pawn. He acknowledged it himself by saying he is just like the Black Mages. 

Kuja was a character who wanted to discover what his purpose and identity was. That's something many heroes struggle with as well. He just went about it the wrong way. Which he realizes at the very end....

So yes, enough of my fanboying over Kuja. I said my piece.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Candy said:


> sure, why not, sephiroths evil right? Disney villains are just angry



not true the horned king was a disney villian and he was an absolutely sadistic openly murderous lich that wanted to bring about an army of undead

mudo xianu from mulan was also a sadistic mass murdering killer

Frollo was completely beyond redemption and very memorable not to mention he had one of the most bad ass intros in disney history..where it actually depicts some one dying..Scar was so completely consumed by ambition and hatred he murdered his big brother and tried to kill his nephew

Shere khan was made of pure win..and was also extremely vicious and was a bit more then angry..he wanted to murder a kid..due to prejudice against mankind

disney has had a great many villians that are beyond simple "anger"


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

Frollo was good for Disney but his book counterpart was a lot more interesting.

Lust is a simple part of human nature and suppressing it is as unhealthy as suppressing any other natural thing.

I do have to admit though,  Hellfire is pretty nice in its lyrics.

"It's not my fault 
If in God's Plan
He made the Devil so much stronger than a man"

^ That's actually something I've thought about in a more serious sense.


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## Emperor Joker (May 12, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> not true the horned king was a disney villian and he was an absolutely sadistic openly murderous lich that wanted to bring about an army of undead
> 
> mudo xianu from mulan was also a sadistic mass murdering killer
> 
> ...



Hell honestly I can't think of many disney villians other than Maleficent and the Queen of Hearts who has simple anger as thier motivation.

Practically all of them had some grand ambition (Jafar, Hades, Shan Yu, Scar) or let they're vices get the best of them (Frollo...Gaston) some of them like Gaston as an example, were just massive pricks that were used to getting they're way.

And then you get somebody like Dr. Facilier, who's motive was Greed, Power and the desire to pay off his debt to his Friends on the other side. 

Disney villians are alot more complex than people think


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## Level7N00b (May 12, 2010)

Shan-Yu: "How many men does it take to deliver a message?"

Shan-Yu's Archer: "One..." *Draws back bow*

Shan-Yu was beast.


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## Shuntensatsu (May 12, 2010)

Not even close.

FF has Kefka, Sephiroth, and Kuja. Each of them are outstanding antagonists.


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## Emperor Joker (May 12, 2010)

Shuntensatsu said:


> Not even close.
> 
> FF has Kefka, Sephiroth, and Kuja. Each of them are outstanding antagonists.



Sephiroth not so much...Kefka and Kuja I can kinda agree with.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

Sephiroth's not a bad villain at all. He and Kefka are both equally overrated.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Frollo was good for Disney but his book counterpart was a lot more interesting.
> 
> Lust is a simple part of human nature and suppressing it is as unhealthy as suppressing any other natural thing.
> 
> ...



well of course he's not gonna be as deep as his book counter part...that particular story is heavy material for most teen agers...much less kids..disney really pushed a line making that movie

but he was still great...less obsessed about justice and more lustfull aside

oh and fiy check out the latin chants in the backround..translate 'em it adds a hole nother level of mind fuck..to the song especially because iirc from my younger days..I think that's an actual prayer




Emperor Joker said:


> Hell honestly I can't think of many disney villians other than Maleficent and the Queen of Hearts who has simple anger as thier motivation.
> 
> Practically all of them had some grand ambition (Jafar, Hades, Shan Yu, Scar) or let they're vices get the best of them (Frollo...Gaston) some of them like Gaston as an example, were just massive pricks that were used to getting they're way.
> 
> ...



Gaston to me was such a compelling Villian because the dude was the type of jerk ass we knew IRL...almost every knows..a guy like that..or knew some one who knew such a person..making it all the more real

people forget the black cauldren was a disney movie the horned king..was a very very scary bad guy

like you said their motivations are rarely rage based...Malifcent the evil queen and the queen of hearts

Ursula possibly too if the little mermaid EU is canon..but even then she went about it in such a cold calculating manner..

too bad Jenner from the secret of nims not a disney Villian he was awesome.

Ratigan was also..an awesome bad guy and was voiced by vincent price..


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## Riddler (May 12, 2010)

Link removed

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So, how can FF villains compare to those? 

PS: why can't I post youtube videos directly? I use the "wrap youtube tags" and all


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## shadowhighwind (May 12, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Sephiroth's not a bad villain at all. He and Kefka are both equally overrated.



Kefka isnt overrated.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

lol Yes, yes he is.


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## shadowhighwind (May 12, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> lol Yes, yes he is.



No, he isnt


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

Riddler said:


> PS: why can't I post youtube videos directly? I use the "wrap youtube tags" and all



It should work.


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## Narcissus (May 12, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Hell honestly I can't think of many disney villians other than Maleficent and the Queen of Hearts who has simple anger as thier motivation.
> 
> Practically all of them had some grand ambition (Jafar, Hades, Shan Yu, Scar) or let they're vices get the best of them (Frollo...Gaston) some of them like Gaston as an example, were just massive pricks that were used to getting they're way.
> 
> ...



And even then, Maleficent still made a good villain. The way she taunted the prince after catching him was epic.

The thing I like about Facilier was thinking about his background, too. Thinking about him being a black man in the time the movie was set in, and seeing how bitter he was with his place in life, it could make a person feel sorry for him, if not for trying to sell the souls of everyone in New Orleans to Voodoo demons.

It has more to do with the fact that the movies don't have time to further explore the villains and their pasts because they focus on the heroes.

Gaston and Frollo were awesome villains too, because of the vices they showed (lust and narcissism).





Level7N00b said:


> Shan-Yu: "How many men does it take to deliver a message?"
> 
> Shan-Yu's Archer: "One..." *Draws back bow*
> 
> Shan-Yu was beast.



Ah, I loved that scene. And he had a great death too. 

Plus, Mozenrath had some extremely good dialogue for a Disney cartoon villain.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VClOiQmv9aQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Narcissus (May 12, 2010)

Honestly, squabbling in a thread like this won't go anywhere. It's an opinion-based thread.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

I suppose that's true. Guess I'm just in one of my antagonizing moods today. Almost was getting ready to rant about how Freeza was like Kefka.

But yes, everyone likes different things.


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## shadowhighwind (May 12, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> So being immensely popular yet bland, one-dimensional and uninspired in every way donest equal being overrated?



Funny how the exact description you made fits Ex-death more so than Kefka. Kefka's at least got personality, quirkiness, one-liners, and...actually, he's the first villain the RPG genre to show any sort of character beyond "Rar, I'm evil, I eat babies!" He clearly was one of the first remotely creative villains in the genre, if not THE first.

(I consider him, Sephiroth and Dhaos to be major revolutionary villains, since they all contributed something major. Kefka was the first genuinely original villain for the genre, Sephiroth had a remote sense of depth and development, Dhaos was the first attempt at a BENEVOLENT villain.)


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

...Kefka was a sadistic lunatic. How is that creative?

As for being revolutionary, big deal. FF7 as a whole was revolutionary. So was FF4.
Doesn't make ether one of them all that special in terms of actual quality.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 12, 2010)

Isn't Marvel owned by Disney, and wouldn't Marvel villains therefore be Disney villains?


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## Emperor Joker (May 12, 2010)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Isn't Marvel owned by Disney, and wouldn't Marvel villains therefore be Disney villains?



...let's not go there please


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## Onomatopoeia (May 12, 2010)

Spoilsport.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

Yeah. if the Red Hulk was in this, FF villains would look like shit by comparison.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 12, 2010)

Is this a fight thread or a comparison thread? Because even the most one dimensional Final Fantasy character shits on Red Hulk in terms of depth.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 12, 2010)

I realize that. i was joking.

Marvel has some nice villains but it's accumulated a ton of shitty ones over the years. I would say the bad outweighs the good so any good Marvel villains listed would be buried by the shitty ones.

Though I guess if we just ignored all the shitty ones on both sides we could make an okay comparison.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> ...let's not go there please



Doom ends up with his own villain song


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## Narcissus (May 12, 2010)

The good villains in Marvel are done well enough that I would say they outweigh the bad ones.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (May 12, 2010)

Narcissus said:


> The good villains in Marvel are done well enough that I would say they outweigh the bad ones.



Magneto being a very well written character 

Doom too though the pettyness can get out of control some times


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 12, 2010)

Memorable: Disney, cuz they can be down right dicks 80% of the time.
Battle wise:

FF Side:
Chaos
Mateus (he becomes God and the Devil after death AT THE SAME TIME)
CoD 
ExDeath 
Kefka (God of Magic and all)

Disney:

Jafar/Genie (Reality warping fucker)
Malificent (haxx magic)
Hades (a fudging Gawd)
Devil


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## shadowhighwind (May 13, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> ...Kefka was a sadistic lunatic. How is that creative?



Lets look at villains before him, shall we?

Garland: Generic Evil Knight, possibly possessed by a FRUE EVIL!!!, which makes him superficially evil, but FF1 is vague here.
Emperor: Generic Evil guy; he's the guy who sits on a throne, holding a wine glass until your party arrives (basically makes him Dracula without the "WHAT IS A MAN!?" quality.)
Xande: A puppet
Cloud of Darkness: Space Flea from Nowhere whose just the ESSENCE OF EVIL controlling said puppet.
Golbez: Is Darth Vader spliced with Xande (Darth Vader followed his master on free will, Golbez was controlled.)
Ze(ro)mus: Another Space Flea from Nowhere controlling some guy.
Ex-death: Evil Tree whose only evil cause a bunch of other evil dead guys inhabit him and merged into one.

Dragon Lord: Generic Evil Guy who steals a princess and waits to be killed by the hero, cause he's too EVIL to do anything else.
The Dragon Quest 2 Villain whose name begins with an H: "Rar, I'm evil, I eat babies; I have no plot other than the fact that I'm EVIL!"
Guy said villain summons: Space Flea from Nowhere
Villains of DQ3: Basically one of the above 3, honestly can't remember them.
Saro: "THEORY OF EVOLUTION!" ...is actually just a euphemism for "Humans suck, lets get rid of them, LONG LIVE MONSTERS!" IOWs, he's the first of one of the lamest villain types ever (the "Humans suck!" style)...ironically, my favorite villain ever (Fou-lu) actually is of this genre, but that just shows how exceptional he is.
Villains of DQ5 (why are these names so forgettable?): Pawns of a Space Flea and the Space Flea himself. Note that the ORIGINAL DQ5 did NOT have a recurring prominent main villain; it was a bunch of different guys. DQ5r decided to take one of those and make him have more scenes and write out a bunch of those losers, so if you played the remake, that will explain why; DQ5o didn't really have a main prominent villain, other than the obvious leader that all these pawns are working under.

The Sinistrals: A bunch of generic Shonen VIllains (going off Lufia 1 here; Lufia 2 is AFTER FF6, so that kind of defeats the purpose), so they're just "EVil and Super Strong!" which is their ENTIRE character.

I could go on, but see a running trend here? I suppose BoF1 Jade deserves a nod for doing the "more evil sidekick" thing in an actually creative way (he completely uses your team without you realizing it *AND* toys with the heroes emotions using his sister), contrast to Thanatos of SoM whose more just "Ok, emperor, you're dead...OFF SCREEN!" but lets not get into that.

Then we have Kefka. What's he got that others do not?
Personality, a degree of backstory that actually EXPLAINS why he's an evil psychopath (oh yeah, notice how none of the above are "Psychopaths", they're just EVIL!!!), and in a way that's more than just "I am a manifestation of evil!" or "I'm evil cause...uh...I'm the bad guy! Yeah that works!" Cheap explanation, but still one. And then there's this fact:
HE ACTUALLY WINS. ON SCREEN.

Do you know how many villains can lay claim to that? Practically zilch. Some villains win in backstory (like Yunalesca), others "win" cause of time travel shenanigans, and you're preventing that from happening (Giygas and Lavos are examples of this), but very few actually succeed at their goals, completely tear apart your team and force you to start rebuilding it.

Also, I will say this:
It says something that Kefka STANDS OUT from the entire cast of Dissidia. This includes villains spanning the entire series until FF10 (+ Gabranth, though he's not really part of the story); doesn't that...kind of hint that maybe he's...creative? He's also one of the first VIDEO game examples of the "Evil Clown" character.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 13, 2010)

Okay. So he was creative for the time. You are right.
But so what? Doesn't make him better than villains who came after. Since you're saying all the villains before were bland and Kefka had some depth then  the villains who came after Kefka had even more depth. Which happens to be the case.

And fuck Dissidia. It completely misrepresented both Kuja and Gabranth. So Kefka might have stood out but only because two superior antagonists were fucked over.


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## Tifa (May 13, 2010)

Hades wins by default 

In other words, Disney win.


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## shadowhighwind (May 13, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> And fuck Dissidia. It completely misrepresented both Kuja and Gabranth. So Kefka might have stood out but only because two superior antagonists were fucked over.



A. Gabranth had practically zilch plot in Dissidia, so its no wonder he was half assed. That, and he didn't have THAT much in FF12 cause FF12's writing is only half done to begin with, its hard to say "he was poorly represented." ESPECIALLY since FF12 wasn't even INTENDED to be in the game to begin with; FF11 and FF12 PCs were shoe-horned in last minute as guests cause those games do exist and deserve some representation, but the original idea was FF1-10, hence why those games get so much more time in the spotlight.
Honestly, such little screen time, such little to work with from the source game, especially since a good deal of Gabranth's character is based around the whole opposition of Basch thing (who isn't even in the game), its really hard to do anything.

B. Kuja was represented pretty damn well actually. Just what was off about him? Remember that some factors COULD NOT apply to Kuja from FF9. The whole "Oh ****, I'm dying! BLOW EVERYTHING UP WITH ME!" factor doesn't apply since, well, it never comes up. Everything else was there, be it major tells like he's a narcisstic, prideful, scheming evil bastard who hates Zidane with a passion, to minor things like "Garland, I can't stand you!" as a nod to the fact that there's a Garland in his world and he despises him.

Heck, it even takes it a few steps further than you think. Something I think a lot of people missed is this:
In FF9, Kuja's two main henchman are Zorn and Thorn, two small jesters.
In Dissidia, Kuja's primary "friend" is Kefka, whose also a clown.

What more did you want from Kuja? Did you want him to try and kidnap Terra and extract her own Esper half from herself, to reference the Garnet Eidolon nonsense? Oh wait, Kefka's already got that part handled, and it fits more there cause, you know, same game, Slave Crown stuff, etc (the entire Terra/Onion Knight section is pretty much about "Kefka is trying to get Terra by any means necessary, Cloud of Darkness is helping him out", as far as the villains are concerned.) Why doesn't Kuja help out then?
Cause Kuja's currently obsessed with trying to screw Zidane over in any way possible (be it kill him outright, or just break his spirit so he becomes a useless weakling, hence why he attacks Squall, etc.) ...which fits in rather well with his FF9 self. Without FF9 Garland around to make divert Kuja's priorities away from Zidane, Kuja WILL be all wanting Zidane's head.

Seriously...where's the "poor Kuja representation" coming from? or did you like totally miss the point of Kuja's character in FF9?


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## livinlaravers (May 13, 2010)

Really, is good that Kefka dont have much depth at all

The problem with giving a character like Kefka depth is that psychos DO NOT WORK for Depth. The explanation they gave was he lost his mind due to a bad experiment...ok, fair, cheap, but its there.

If you start giving Psychos depth, they start becoming more along the lines of villains you're suppose to pity. Albedo of Xenosaga is a perfect example of that. He's a psycho, but they start going into depth about him, and suddenly he becomes more the "pity him" style villain rather than the "FEAR HIM!"

Kefka you're NOT suppose to pity. People who say "he's tragic!" miss the point. Not all villains are meant to have depth for that reason; depth can ruin certain character styles, in particular this Psycho Madman. When it comes to this villain, you look at different criteria, like how threatening they are, how stylish they are, etc. Not gonna weigh in on how Kefka comes off here, but you have to bare in mind that the reason Kefka doesn't have much depth is cause it'd be hard to give someone like him depth *AND* retain the style of villain they wanted (ie a villain you fear and hate, as opposed to pity.)

I mean, Sephiroth is someone who went psycho, and they gave him a little depth, and suddenly he's all TRAGIC!! to the fans. Even though Square themselves openly stated "SEPHIROTH IS EVIL, HE'S NOT TRAGIC", people still pity him, cause hey, they jumped that line of depth. Not trying to bash Sephiroth here, just explaining why giving depth can ruin the creators intent of a villain. Sometimes, just being shallow is the way to go with certain characters; its rare, but as I said, if they started giving Kefka more depth than he has, the entire purpose of his character would start being compromised.

(its also worth noting that despite popular belief, Kefka's been scheming for a long time in the game. After all, he does mention the Triad in the Magitek Factory when there's no hints of them earlier, so its not like he just randomly seized a moment; its clear he was planning on giving Emperor the finger early on, just playing 2nd banana cause it was convenient and removed suspicion.)


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## Goshinki (May 13, 2010)

Fianl fantasy for sure. Not that disney villians dont do a good job but final fantasy has *SEPHIROTH*. Not to mention alot of other cool villians.


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## Emperor Joker (May 13, 2010)

Goshinki said:


> Fianl fantasy for sure. Not that disney villians dont do a good job but final fantasy has *SEPHIROTH*. Not to mention alot of other cool villians.



And Sephiroth is massivly overrated compared to other FF villians...why does everybody choose him...


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## livinlaravers (May 13, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> And Sephiroth is massivly overrated compared to other FF villians...why does everybody choose him...



Well, here's a few reasons why Sephiroth is so loved:

-Style. Mostly just from a few stand out scenes, the most famous of which is probably the Fire Walk, a scene so liked they rerendered the thing twice (Advent Children and Crisis Core) with updated Graphics *AND* used it in the early trailers of Dissidia, to introduce Sephiroth. Later, they gave the Firewalk to the main 10 Chaos Characters doing it at once, cause hey, why not make ALL villains look bad ass upon their entrance into the game?

-He's good at getting under people's skins. Just look at the scene in the Northern Crater. He took this Tough Guy like Cloud and completely broke him down to nothing more than a blabbering idiot and a puppet.

-He's the first RPG villain people have seen. FF7 was the Gateway RPG for many people, the game that started the series for people, etc. and thus, often is their favorite as a result (or one of their favorites.) Sephiroth being the villain of the game thus gets favorable impression in their eyes.

-One Winged Angel. Lets face it, this song is pretty damn good, and its his song and <_<

There are other reasons but...basically, Sephiroth is just the perfect "Fanboy Magnet." He's got everything needed to get a bunch of fans following him, and while he's not the only one to get these traits, he was probably the first, at least for western audiences. Again, style, some depth, backstory, cool design, what have you...from the eyes of a simple minded fan, he's got everything.

You can often tell the difference between a genuine Sephiroth fan (ie likes Sephiroth based on his actual merits) and just a random fanboy/girl ("Sephiroth pwnzor!") based on HOW they justify him. If they just go "He's so cool! Kills people, looks awesome!" then uh, yeah, congrats, lots of villains fall under that.
If they mention something like one of his mind rape scenes, and how effective it was? Ok, now that's actually understanding the point behind Sephiroth more than just a shallow level.


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## Chainwave (May 13, 2010)

shadowhighwind said:


> Lets look at villains before him, shall we?
> 
> Garland: Generic Evil Knight, possibly possessed by a FRUE EVIL!!!, which makes him superficially evil, but FF1 is vague here.
> Emperor: Generic Evil guy; he's the guy who sits on a throne, holding a wine glass until your party arrives (basically makes him Dracula without the "WHAT IS A MAN!?" quality.)
> ...



Xande was essentially cursed by his teacher into dying, while his 2 friends received phonomenal blessings. That sounds a little better of a backstory then mr. science experiment in clown shoes.

Also Kefka doesn't win anything. Alot of people say this nonsense, originally it was a famous argument in Kefka vs Sephiroth tard debates. See, Sephiroth didn't manage to ruin the world but Kefka did, so apparently Kefka won(?won what exactly?). Problem is, this argument doesn't go well with other FF villains.

Before Kefka, Exdeath not only rearranged the surface of the planet, but he also voided several castles and cities with people in them who actually had connections with the heroes. 

Before that, Zemus succeded in his goal of collecting all the crystals and awakening the gigantic robot, bonus points for essentially letting your party do all the dirty work. 

Before that, Xande didn't rearrange the surface of the world like Kefka did at all. No, he only FLOODED IT ENTIRELY, and it would've been stuck like that for eternity if not for heroic intervention. 

Before that, Mateus took over the world, and hell too apparently, and in the remake he also somehow took over heaven. 

Before that, Chaos put an end to 2 great civilizations, and left the world scattered and the land rotting. Lol Kefka you have a long way to go.

In Dissidia Kefka hardly stands out from the rest, he is just a comic relief villain. Dissidia versions of Garland, Emperor, CoD, Jecht and Gabranth steal the spot for being awesome, though this is a matter of opinion.


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## HUNTER EMS (May 13, 2010)

martryn said:


> Final Fantasy villains are all queers and have motives that don't make fucking sense.  Disney takes it, I think.



Final Fantasy sense >>>>>>>>>>> Disney sense, like Mappa Douji said, it does take actual intelligence to appreciate Final Fantasy.


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## Onomatopoeia (May 13, 2010)

Chainwave said:


> In Dissidia Kefka hardly stands out from the rest, he is just a comic relief villain. Dissidia versions of Garland, Emperor, CoD, Jecht and Gabranth steal the spot for being awesome, though this is a matter of opinion.



Dissidia is noncanon, so...Irrelevant. ^_^

Whatever their power level in Dissidia, the villains always shit on the heroes in every way, but still lose thanks to plot, so it doesn't matter if Kefka is average Dissidia character, or comic relief, none of what you said in any way makes what shadowhighwind said wrong.




livinlaravers said:


> -He's good at getting under people's skins. Just look at the scene in the Northern Crater. He took this Tough Guy like Cloud and completely broke him down to nothing more than a blabbering idiot and a puppet.


 That doesn't count, he cheated using a psychic connection to Cloud. If he had done so because he were really that good, it might count, but otherwise...also, Cloud is hardly a tough guy, it's all an act.




> -One Winged Angel. Lets face it, this song is pretty damn good, and its his song and <_<



Ominous Latin Chanting is overdone.


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## livinlaravers (May 13, 2010)

Onomatopoeia said:


> That doesn't count, he cheated using a psychic connection to Cloud. If he had done so because he were really that good, it might count, but otherwise...also, Cloud is hardly a tough guy, it's all an act.



I know, but its still one of the reasons that people like him.


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## RWB (May 14, 2010)

HUNTER EMS said:


> Final Fantasy sense >>>>>>>>>>> Disney sense, like Mappa Douji said, *it does take actual intelligence to appreciate Final Fantasy.*






Anyway, Disney lolstomps.

Raider, Duo, Gorthan, Fenimore Cook, Everett Ducklair, Juniper Ducklair and Korinna Ducklair.

That's just one series, they have several more.


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## Starrk (May 14, 2010)

Considering this is pre-Hannah Montana Disney:

Disney rapestomps FF Villains.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> And Sephiroth is massivly overrated compared to other FF villians...why does everybody choose him...



-Big sword
-Cool trenchcoat
-Overrated theme song
-Stylish/flashy
-Good looking
-Cool voice
-Fangirl service

He's bland with superficial appeal he's just cool that's it and not a good villain or even a decent character. Regardless the disney villains(Assuming these are the classics) take this. Hades, Jafar, various fairy tale villains, Scar, David Xanatos(He's disney too right?) and several others take this in a curbstomp. Kefka was like a magical joker but that alone won't grant the win.


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## Fang (May 14, 2010)

Yeah Gargoyles is Disney.

So David Xanatos is with them.


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## RWB (May 14, 2010)

Then David Xanatos solos through a gambit.


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## shadowhighwind (May 14, 2010)

Chainwave said:


> Xande was essentially cursed by his teacher into dying, while his 2 friends received phonomenal blessings. That sounds a little better of a backstory then mr. science experiment in clown shoes.



Xande wasn't cursed, that was just it; he had the greatest gift, since humanity essentially is "Freedom", he was just too blind to see it. Unei's gift is escape from Reality, but that only lasts so long. Doga's gift has immense responsibility.

Xande? Has none of these problems; he can do whatever he wants, etc. Yeah, he's got a time limit, but then whole "Body may die but spirit lives on" thing kicks in; immortality in itself is an illusion in the FF3 World basically, cause in some sense, everyone has it, and you can only truly value life IF YOU CAN LOSE IT.

Branching from that, Xande totally lacks personality and screen time, and his sole scene is a generic "DIE MONSTER! YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD!" only not Memetastically awesome, so its hard to really hype him.




Chainwave said:


> Also Kefka doesn't win anything. Alot of people say this nonsense, originally it was a famous argument in Kefka vs Sephiroth tard debates. See, Sephiroth didn't manage to ruin the world but Kefka did, so apparently Kefka won(?won what exactly?). Problem is, this argument doesn't go well with other FF villains.



Except that other villains didn't destroy the world. I'll show you below.



Chainwave said:


> Before Kefka, Exdeath not only rearranged the surface of the planet, but he also voided several castles and cities with people in them who actually had connections with the heroes.



Ex-death set the world back to its ORIGINAL state...that's a GOOD THING. The ancients only split the world to STOP the Void to begin with, they didn't want to do it cause hey, SMALLER PLANET = GOOD RIGHT!? Also, the world being united = now all the big ancient legendary powers of awesome are unsealed, so really its a double edged sword; 0 points for Ex-death.

The Void is not the same as destroying either; see how when each village is restored, 0 damage is done and everyone is fine. The Void = Time Stops, that is all. Its not destruction like Kefka's light of judgment, which DOES kill people (See Mobliz)

Lastly...
Kefka ruled over the entire world for a year, and split your entire team up, etc.
Ex-death...merely threatened the world for about a good month at most, but was never in control. He never even had full control of the void; that's kind of the point. He DIDN'T have control, so he sent his minions after you to either kill you off before you get there, or just to buy him more time. He only gains control right when you reach him at the end...and even THEN the VOID EATS HIM up anyway, so in the end, he failed.



Chainwave said:


> Before that, Zemus succeded in his goal of collecting all the crystals and awakening the gigantic robot, bonus points for essentially letting your party do all the dirty work.



The Robot was a means to an end; it really did absolutely nothing but...unite the entire world against him? So it did the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it was intending? Yay!

Almost every villain succeeds at the Means to an End, but never gets to that end. The Giant of Bab-il is equivalent to Sephiroth's Meteor; yeah, HE GOT IT, but the Heroes were still able to stop it.



Chainwave said:


> Before that, Xande didn't rearrange the surface of the world like Kefka did at all. No, he only FLOODED IT ENTIRELY, and it would've been stuck like that for eternity if not for heroic intervention.



A. Xande didn't do this, Cloud of Darkness did.
B. No permanent damage was done; he just STOPPED TIME for a few years. When your team rearranges things...the world goes back to the exact state it was, with 0 problems. Kefka...actually killed people, including an entire race of beings (espers)
C. This is all backstory anyway. If you were paying attention, you'll note that this is completely unspecial. Kefka actually did it within the events in the game. Xande is more akin to Yu Yevon's success, which really isn't fair.

besides, the ultimate goal was absorb the power of all 4 Crystals, send the world into nothingness. Xande/CoD got control of...2 of them, so they only got half way there.



Chainwave said:


> Before that, Mateus took over the world, and hell too apparently, and in the remake he also somehow took over heaven.



Mateus didn't take over the world, don't oversell his achievements. The fact that he never once controls Altair and Fynn at the same time proves this, considering those are the Rebel Army's main bases (he takes over Fynn? Altair is the base. Destroys Altair? Fynn was already liberated. WHOOPS!) That's not succeeding AT ALL.

His Campaign also didn't last an entire year...heck, his campaign only started shortly before the game begins (your team is on the run from his initial conquest of Fynn, after all.)



Chainwave said:


> Before that, Chaos put an end to 2 great civilizations, and left the world scattered and the land rotting. Lol Kefka you have a long way to go.



See what I said about Backstory accomplishments being irrelevant; so many villains have that. Kefka's stands out cause it HAPPENS IN THE EVENTS OF THE GAME ITSELF.

Kefka starts off a pawn, midway, becomes a god, destroys the world, rules over what's left for an entire year (EVERYONE knows Kefka's name and fears him; contrast to Ex-death who...almost no one even acknowledges exists outside of a few people directly dealing with him), and has absolute power. He does all this in the game itself.

Also bare in mind this factor:
The initial impression we get from Kefka is clearly some guy we can't take seriously; the fact that he becomes a genuine threat to the level he does is actually quite impressive.

DMC3 Jester pulled off something similar, though in a totally different style. Admittedly, DMC3 Jester was probably more entertaining, but that's more DMC3 Exposition being one of its best qualities.


Chainwave said:


> In Dissidia Kefka hardly stands out from the rest, he is just a comic relief villain. Dissidia versions of Garland, Emperor, CoD, Jecht and Gabranth steal the spot for being awesome, though this is a matter of opinion.



He still stands out as being totally unique in the cast; no one else is as silly or crazy as him (and Kitase openly stated that's EXACTLY what he wanted Kefka to be like, Kitase more or less being the man who MADE Kefka)


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## Quelsatron (May 14, 2010)

Well, Scrooge McDuck once had Teddy Roosevelt as a semi-quasi-sorta antagonist. TEDDY ROOSEVELT MOTHERFUCKERS


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## Tranquil Fury (May 14, 2010)

Going that route Gargoyles had MacBeth, well not sure if he was a villain, he was after Demona if I recall and the one who gave her the name.


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## Emperor Joker (May 14, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Going that route Gargoyles had MacBeth, well not sure if he was a villain, he was after Demona if I recall and the one who gave her the name.



He tried to kill the Manhattan Clan multiple times, despite his Heel-Face turn later on in the series, he was a villian for the majority of the series


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## Sephiroth (May 15, 2010)

Tranquil Fury said:


> -Big sword
> -Cool trenchcoat
> -Overrated theme song
> -Stylish/flashy
> ...





Emperor Joker said:


> Sephiroth not so much...Kefka and Kuja I can kinda agree with.





zenieth said:


> Sephiroth is mentally unstable, he can classify as evil, but he's done nothing near what kefka does, I may not like ff6 but I can respect the level of pure insane and evil that kefka is.



-Insert flowery language and keen details of work to boast Kefka while undermining Sephiroth with ill-mentioned, deemphasized notes and a dumbed down presentation of his character.

Kefka was the product of your typical, "experiment gone wrong" trial that essentially made him an irrational psycho. Haven't seen that be--wait, yes I have. You want to talk about child-like motives with Sephiroth's "mommy issues"? Well here you have a guy who pretty much did evil because he wanted evil, no different from the type of kid you'd give a time out to on a playground.  Yeah, great depth for a villain.

Stuff like that isn't hard to do. But in reality, Sephiroth's motives ran deeper than "mother issues". It started with what he thought to be a betrayal of his entire race. Additionally, he had a messiah complex so that he thought himself to be greater than Cetra (and all others) even when he learned he wasn't one. Hence, in either case, he saw himself fit to rule all other lifeforms. 

And how exactly are their accomplishments indicative for the idea that Kefka is of a greater evil than Sephiroth? Both men pretty much sought the same thing. Sephiroth planned Meteor to smite the planet so that he could then take control of it as a god. No different than what Kefka actually did do with the Magitek power to create the World of Ruin and control the Universe as a god. The only difference was the success rate; one group got there in time, the other didn't.

And then I see stuff about Kefka Pre-Warring Triad compared to Sephiroth? Because Sephiroth only killed Aeris, right? This is, of course, neglecting his trashing of Nibelheim and his complete and utter ruin of Shinra, the very powerhouse government of VII. 

Also the same bias regarding their backstories. "Kefka controlled an army, he was an elite general", LOL, so was Sephiroth. The man was the hero of the Wutai war, responsible for taking down armies. The #1 SOLDIER of the world army.

On the topic of this thread, I would say Disney villains despite how most are just evil to be evil, they are very entertaining, and outnumber Final Fantasy villains with simply more entertaining characters. Xanatos as well is a really great villain, one of the few with some depth, is one of the best amongst them.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 15, 2010)

Since my post was quoted and some guy SHM negged me because I insulted his Sephiroth fandom:



> Kefka was the product of your typical, "experiment gone wrong" trial that essentially made him an irrational psycho. Haven't seen that be--wait, yes I have. You want to talk about child-like motives with Sephiroth's "mommy issues"? Well here you have a guy who pretty much did evil because he wanted evil, no different from the type of kid you'd give a time out to on a playground. Yeah, great depth for a villain



He's a good villain because he does everything for fun or because he's nihilistic. Whether it's poisoning rivers to kill Cyan's family, draining the statues, backstabbing the emperor, killing that general in the guise of the emperor, used Terra as his slave etc. He was also cowardly and a jackass. His laugh is memetic.  He does'nt need more depth, he's a magical version of the joker.



> Stuff like that isn't hard to do. But in reality, Sephiroth's motives ran deeper than "mother issues". It started with what he thought to be a betrayal of his entire race. Additionally, he had a messiah complex so that he thought himself to be greater than Cetra (and all others) even when he learned he wasn't one. Hence, in either case, he saw himself fit to rule all other lifeforms



Having a messiah or God complex is not unique either if you're going to accuse Kefka of being unoriginal. It's this complex that makes him hate Cloud so, a fluke loss can't be forgiven by him so he plays around. His goal even in AC is to use the planet as a vessel to sail the cosmos to find the promised land. Kefka does not care for promised lands. Yes Sephiroth has more than Kefka but what Kefka has is enough to make him a popular villain. Like I said Evilulz but it works for his fans because those aspects of his character make him the villain he is even when he was a pathetic person who hide behind his army.

I can't argue for others but I like Kefka for being insane/evilulz and nothing more. I don't know many fans who like Sephiroth for his motivations, it's mostly his looks, cool moves and manly voice along with his theme music. There are few who'd like him for his character.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6ZaSipHuO4&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Stuff like that. Yeah he's cool to watch pwn things but that's it.



> Also the same bias regarding their backstories. "Kefka controlled an army, he was an elite general", LOL, so was Sephiroth. The man was the hero of the Wutai war, responsible for taking down armies. The #1 SOLDIER of the world army



Who said this? Kefka was a pathetic soldier. Celes was a better general than him.


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## Sephiroth (May 15, 2010)

> He's a good villain because he does everything for fun or because he's nihilistic. Whether it's poisoning rivers to kill Cyan's family, draining the statues, backstabbing the emperor, killing that general in the guise of the emperor, used Terra as his slave etc. He was also cowardly and a jackass. His laugh is memetic. He does'nt need more depth, he's a magical version of the joker.


Now I never said Kefka wasn't a good villain, just that his motives, character, and story are shallow, while Sephiroth's aren't, even if Sephiroth is liked for shallow reasons.

A good villain is one who entertains in my opinion, both suceeded to entertain in different ways.



> Having a messiah or God complex is not unique either if you're going to accuse Kefka of being unoriginal. It's this complex that makes him hate Cloud so, a fluke loss can't be forgiven by him so he plays around. His goal even in AC is to use the planet as a vessel to sail the cosmos to find the promised land. Kefka does not care for promised lands


I wouldn't call having a messiah complex original either, it's a common villain trope, but it was much more original in video games at the time, creating a ton of copy cats in the industry of tragic villains, while a simple maniac like Kefka who happens to get power was common place already before him.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 15, 2010)

shadowhighwind: What more did I want from Dissidia Kuja?

I wanted him to be himself. Not to prnace around going hehehehehehe.

The real Kuja was a schemer who sat back and manipulated things so they came to him.

He's probably the smartest FF villain to date and it's not even close.

Yet in Dissidia he's treated like a laughing stock. His fellow villains even treat him like a joke.

That's Kefka. Kefka is the idiotic joke. Kuja is the genius who gets what he wants by using everyone around him.


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## The810kid (May 16, 2010)

Kuja is easily the best final fantasy villain to me he wasn't crazy or tricked he knew what he was doing he wasn't manipulated, controlled, or experimented on he knew he was a genome and he wiped out four great nations used Black mages as tools of war and tried to kill a 6 year old and Dagger just to stick it to Garland and say screw you old man I'm an individual. Then when he found out he was going to die thats when he lsot all his composure and completly destroyed his home world and proceeded to erase existance out of fear and selfishness. He admitted at the end he was evil why was Zidnae helping him he never apologized or said he was wrong he knew what he was doing  the entire time.


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## HUNTER EMS (May 16, 2010)

RWB said:


> Anyway, Disney lolstomps.
> 
> Raider, Duo, Gorthan, Fenimore Cook, Everett Ducklair, Juniper Ducklair and Korinna Ducklair.
> 
> That's just one series, they have several more.



Sephiroth and Kefka >>> Disney villains, you have to play the FF games to understand the characteristics of Sephiroth and Kefka, imo they are much better villains then all of the Disney villains.


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## The810kid (May 16, 2010)

Sephiroth as well as FFVII in general gets too much hate because square milked it til nothing was left Sephiroth is more than a pretty boy villain with a simple god complex as depicted. He was an example of a fallen heroe who didn't seek redemption who didn't seek a warped view of justice. Sephiroth was in between sane and insane he had his break down and then became a different person. His accomplishments are always seen as miniscule but the man burned down Nibelheim, Killed many Shinra employees's and their president, He revived the weapons and they ran a muck accumulating who knows how many casualties, he had the entire world in fear just like Kefka but even worse because unlike what happened in VI meteor would wipe everyone out.


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## Koroshi (May 16, 2010)

HUNTER EMS said:


> *Sephiroth* and Kefka >>> Disney villains, you have to play the FF games to understand the characteristics of Sephiroth and Kefka, imo they are much better villains then all of the Disney villains.



Right.

Xanatos is far better than both of them.


----------



## livinlaravers (May 16, 2010)

The810kid said:


> Sephiroth as well as FFVII in general gets too much hate because square milked it til nothing was left Sephiroth is more than a pretty boy villain with a simple god complex as depicted. He was an example of a fallen heroe who didn't seek redemption who didn't seek a warped view of justice. Sephiroth was in between sane and insane he had his break down and then became a different person. His accomplishments are always seen as miniscule but the man burned down Nibelheim, Killed many Shinra employees's and their president, He revived the weapons and they ran a muck accumulating who knows how many casualties, he had the entire world in fear just like Kefka but even *worse* because unlike what happened in VI meteor would wipe everyone out.



How?
Kefka actually KILLED a lot of people, this includes Doma castle and maybe half of the entire world with his light of judgemente and an entire race (espers)
Meteor would destroyed the world but it didnt succeced, Kefka actually destroyed the world and was god for an ENTIRE YEAR. 
Everyone were afraid of Kefka, and altough Kefka was defeated, still is gonna take a lot of years for that the world come back to its normal state.

And he wasnt a fallen hero, Square has stated many times: SEPHIROTH IS EVIL, NOT A HERO! this is why giving depth can ruin certains creators intent character.


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## shadowhighwind (May 16, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> shadowhighwind: What more did I want from Dissidia Kuja?
> 
> I wanted him to be himself. Not to prnace around going hehehehehehe.



Except...Kuja has fun with what he does. Did you forget what he's like in his first battle with him? He's constantly taunting and laughing at you as you hit him. He has fun blowing up Alexandria, laughing at the spectacle of people dying. That's what Kuja is like.




Zaelapolopollo said:


> The real Kuja was a schemer who sat back and manipulated things so they came to him.



Kuja was doing this in Dissidia too. He was making other villains do the dirty work for him, EXACTLY LIKE IN FF9. Thing is, the villains don't let themselves get USED by Kuja, so its all voluntary help. The villains are a lot more clever than freaking Queen Brahne, who very much is just an idiot.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> He's probably the smartest FF villain to date and it's not even close.



He's intelligent, no one denies that. He shows intellect in Dissidia too, but he's naive. I'll cover that later. You're just having a problem recognizing that FF9's scenario is not the same as Dissidia's. Its for this reason Kefka is content with playing 2nd banana the entire way through; things are being blown up, he gets to help out it in, how can he complain?



Zaelapolopollo said:


> Yet in Dissidia he's treated like a laughing stock. His fellow villains even treat him like a joke.



What you're failing to acknowledge is that in FF9, everyone but Kuja and Garland were just tools.
In Dissidia? None of the villains are tools.

Almost everyone is scheming in Dissidia. Everyone is suspicious of everyone else as a result, so no one can really USE anyone on the villain side. If someone tries that, the other villain will go "ok, no, you're just gonna screw me over later, I'm not buying that." Very much a "Takes one to know one" scenario; they suspect each other cause they'd be suspicious of themselves.

Except for Kuja, not cause he's stupid, but cause he's naive and egocentric. Cause he's got a superiority complex, he THINKS he's the only one scheming, and that's what gets to him. This is exactly like in FF9, actually. He thinks no one is onto his schemes, and that he's getting away scotch free...oh wait, Garland was onto him THE ENTIRE TIME, just waiting for the right opportunity to **** Kuja over. It didn't work as well as expected, but Garland was keeping an eye on Kuja the entire time.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> That's Kefka. Kefka is the idiotic joke. Kuja is the genius who gets what he wants by using everyone around him.



All the villains are intelligent; yes, even Kefka. Kefka's a psycho, but NOT a moron. Everyone could see through Kuja's deception as a result; Kuja's too naive to recognize that everyone knows he's up to something and therefor, won't LET him use them; at most they aid him, but willingly. Kind of hard to use people when they know you're up to something.


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## The810kid (May 16, 2010)

livinlaravers said:


> How?
> Kefka actually KILLED a lot of people, this includes Doma castle and maybe half of the entire world with his light of judgemente and an entire race (espers)
> Meteor would destroyed the world but it didnt succeced, Kefka actually destroyed the world and was god for an ENTIRE YEAR.
> Everyone were afraid of Kefka, and altough Kefka was defeated, still is gonna take a lot of years for that the world come back to its normal state.
> ...



The difference between the actions of Kefka and Sephiroth was that Sephiroth's action would have resulted in total annihilation while the people of FFVI's world submitted and had the chance to live in fear and despair. Also Sephiroth accidentally released the weapons who were  killing and destroying everything and unlike Kekfa these creatures couldn't be reasoned with. Seph even managed to have Shinra shit themselves and they had the world in the palm of their hands. I don't see how Sephiroth wasn't a hero he won the Wutai war he was your typical war hero before he went evil whether he regretted his actions or not he was still a fallen hero.


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## The810kid (May 16, 2010)

I'm going to mention the underrated villains in the FF series.

1. Shinra- These people were a greedy corporation who wiped out and entire section of Midgar just to crush a resistance. They had a guy like Hojo who was the Mayuri Orochimaru character of FF. These people burned down villages off of paranoa and were dictators.

2. The Yevon Religion- Yevon had people believing their precepts should be obeyed and Yevon was the cause of Sin. It was  a religion that was pretty mucgh forced down the peoples throats for 1,000 years. They were hipocritical and broke their own rules and caused people like the Albhed who didn't follow Yevon to be outcasted.

3. The Sanctum- For those who haven't played FF 13 The Sanctum purged people off suspicion of being l'Cie with no proof or evidence. They were a facist government who ironically was being controlled by a Fal' Cie. 

4 Seymour- This guy's in the shadow of Sephiroth, Kefka, etc. Seymour murdered his own father from abused Yevon,the Guado, The Maesters, He caused many Albhed and Guado, and Ronso to lose their lives through actions and tried to end all life on Spira by attempting to become sin.

5. Vayne Solidor- Vayne had good intentions but went about them in all the wrong ways. Hwe murdered his own brothers and father to gain control of archades and from his and Archadia actions Landis and Nabradia were wiped out and Dalmasca was seiged.


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## livinlaravers (May 16, 2010)

The810kid said:


> The difference between the actions of Kefka and Sephiroth was that Sephiroth's action would have resulted in total annihilation while the people of FFVI's world submitted and had the chance to live in fear and despair.



There is truth in that but he failed, the meteor failled, the characters managed to stop him and the meteor dont provoked zero deaths (remember cait said that the people of Midgar were in a safe place).
Unlike Kefka he actually KILL people, maybe more of the half of the world, thats much more than Sephiroth.
Actually DESTROYED the world something that Sephiroth didnt managed.
And he has the world in his hands for an ENTIRE YEAR.



The810kid said:


> Also Sephiroth accidentally released the weapons who were  killing and destroying everything and unlike Kekfa these creatures couldn't be reasoned with.



Not at all.
Ruby was hidden in the desert, Emerald was hidden in the ocean, Saphire was already killed by the mako cannon, Diamond didnt manage anything,Ultima destroyed a town ok you got that, but it didnt kill someone.
And really the damage that those weapons did its igsignifficatn of what Kefka did with the world.
The world was dying, the animals were dying, people were dying and even they commit suicide for the despair, etc..



The810kid said:


> Seph even managed to have Shinra shit themselves and they had the world in the palm of their hands.



So...
Sephiroth not even was near of what Kefka did to the world

Really nothing of what you said proves that Sephiroth actions were even worse than Kefka actions


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## The810kid (May 16, 2010)

livinlaravers said:


> There is truth in that but he failed, the meteor failled, the characters managed to stop him and the meteor dont provoked zero deaths (remember cait said that the people of Midgar were in a safe place).
> Unlike Kefka he actually KILL people, maybe more of the half of the world, thats much more than Sephiroth.
> Actually DESTROYED the world something that Sephiroth didnt managed.
> And he has the world in his hands for an ENTIRE YEAR.
> ...


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 16, 2010)

> Except...Kuja has fun with what he does. Did you forget what he's like in his first battle with him? He's constantly taunting and laughing at you as you hit him. He has fun blowing up Alexandria, laughing at the spectacle of people dying. That's what Kuja is like.



He only did either of the things you mentioned because he knew he was on the cusp of ultimate power.

He shows up when it fits in with his plan. Every other time he sits back and manipualtes things from the shadows.



> In Dissidia? None of the villains are tools.



Yes they are. They're just pawns in a great cosmic struggle. Only The Emperor and Garland realized this fact. Garland didn't care and The Emperor tried (and failed) to escape his fate as a pawn.

Whatever. Dissidia is worthless and should be ignored when it comes to characterization. FFIX is all that matters for Kuja.

Dissidia is only good for giving personality to those who had none. The heroes and villains from FF1-3 for instance. Everyone who already had a personality was just ruined.


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## Axl Low (May 16, 2010)

Gaston would kick the shit out of Sephiroth
Fuck yeah
Toonforce and Manliness


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## livinlaravers (May 16, 2010)

The810kid said:


> Kefka didn't destroy the world he leveled.



Yes yes, he did,the world was really fucked, the vegeation was dying, the animals were dying, many places were destroyed, many people died, people suicided it and he has control for it for an entire year.



The810kid said:


> Also Barrets own words were when Tifa woke up was that for 7 days the weapons were going around tearing shit up do you really think there were no casualties.



Point taken, still its not even near what Kefka did.



The810kid said:


> I never said Sephs actions were more devastating I merely said he had caused equal if not greater fear,anxiety and despair in his own world.



Yes yes, you did just here



The810kid said:


> he had the entire world in fear just like Kefka but even *worse* because unlike what happened in VI meteor would wipe everyone out.



And besides really how Sephiroth actions are equal to Kefka?
He burned Nibhelheim and killed Shinra employes? Kefka killed all the Doma castle, killed an entire race, killed great part of the world, destroy the world, etc...

he had the entire world in fear? yes yes, he actually did that with the meteor.
But Kefka did the same thing and unlike Sephiroth, Kefka actually succes and had the world in fear for an ENTIRE YEAR where sephiroth as most is 1 month.
And the damge that Kefka did was even worse that altough Kefka was defeated still is gonna tale a lot of years come back the world to its original satae.


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## RWB (May 16, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Whatever. Dissidia is worthless and should be ignored when it comes to characterization. FFIX is all that matters for Kuja.
> 
> Dissidia is only good for giving personality to those who had none. The heroes and villains from FF1-3 for instance. Everyone who already had a personality was just ruined.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 16, 2010)

Mad as in insane or mad as in angry?

I'm neither. Well maybe a little insane but not upset.

Still, I think Dissidia Garland was pretty awesome. And Cloud of Darkness was hot as hell.
As opposed to original Garland who was...nothing. And FF3 CoD who was even less than nothing.


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## Goshinki (May 16, 2010)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Final Fantasy villains don't get catchy musical numbers.


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## HUNTER EMS (May 16, 2010)

Koroshi said:


> Right.
> 
> Xanatos is far better than both of them.



LOL, sure he is.


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## Champagne Supernova (May 16, 2010)

Disney has Scar, Jafar, Gaston, Frollo and Ratigan.

Disney win.


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## Damaris (May 16, 2010)

Fei said:


> Conversely though, Final Fantasy has a lot of terrible villains that are poorly developed with little storyline time spent on them.  *Ultimecia,* Vayne, and Necron are the best examples of that that I can think of.



wait, what?
Ultimecia is one of the most fascinating villains in Final Fantasy.
By defeating her in the past, Squall and the rest actually condemn her to the life of persecution and hate that made her so twisted in the future. Her attempt to escape that fate leads to her fall, which leads to everyone from that point forward being afraid of sorceresses, resulting in her being set on that path when she's born generations later. Not to mention the Rinoa = Ultimecia idea, which leads into the even more fascinating question of what immortality does to the human pysche--how someone as loving and gentle as Rinoa could become a wrathful killer after generations of pain and hate.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 16, 2010)

Ultimecia put me to sleep


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 16, 2010)

this thread is all about opinions 

and my opinion is that Ultimecia puts me to sleep


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## Champagne Supernova (May 16, 2010)

She had a good battle theme though.


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## Damaris (May 16, 2010)

entertaining chronicle, sibling



Champagne Supernova said:


> She had a good battle theme though.



"Maybe I'm a Lion" is my favorite piece, but "The Extreme" is nothing short of amazing.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 17, 2010)

It's all about The Legendary Beast.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=648xXan3Tg4[/YOUTUBE]

And since my fanboy'ing for Kuja never ends, he has several great tunes too.


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## Damaris (May 17, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> It's all about The Legendary Beast.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=648xXan3Tg4[/YOUTUBE]



I knew I forgot something.
Speaking of which, badass musically inspired art?  

not to mention this is a heartbreaking take on "eyes on me"
 [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAQqxUsXWqQ&fmt=18[/YOUTUBE]

as well as the orchestra version of love grows
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QYy-sj_Q-k&feature=related&fmt=18[/YOUTUBE]


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 17, 2010)

That is a very sweet song but my favorite FFVIII orchestra track is the Man with the Machinegun. Okay as a regular song but orchestrated...it's just badass.


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## Damaris (May 17, 2010)

i never heard that version 

god i love the ff viii soundtrack


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## the box (May 17, 2010)

mickey with a keyblade solos


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## RWB (May 17, 2010)

Goshinki said:


> Your right. They get this instead. here and also this Link removed


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## Emperor Joker (May 17, 2010)

Champagne Supernova said:


> Disney has Scar, Jafar, Gaston, Frollo and Ratigan.
> 
> Disney win.



and Dr. Facilier...



Goshinki said:


> Your right. They get this instead. Link removed and also this Link removed



Yadda yadda, One Winged Angel, I see that and raise you...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRO-M4XyAbM[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=917Q8dbpRLE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yw2SmG674[/YOUTUBE]


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## Axl Low (May 17, 2010)

One Winged Angel is over wanked for an equally over wanked "villain" 

It took Sephiroth 3 games and movie to actually get a personality. 
Shit son
Give a pissed off momma's boy a 6 foot sword and some fire effects and he'd be jsut as "badass" as Septhiroth too 

Gaston > Sephiroth
It all terms except a battle

The only FF Villain worth a shit is Kefka.
He destroys the world
AND THEN
Wants to destroy even more after that so your party fights him.


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## The810kid (May 17, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> and Dr. Facilier...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



can't beat the classics but you forgot the Oogie Boogie Song.


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## Emperor Joker (May 17, 2010)

The810kid said:


> can't beat the classics but you forgot the Oogie Boogie Song.



Oogie Boogie and Kidnap the Sandy Claws are next round my dear friend. 

but yes I kinda did...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw0aoVpFCDw[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zorunDOqaYE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi4o2cG_SsI[/YOUTUBE]


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## Sephiroth (May 17, 2010)




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## Zaelapolopollo (May 17, 2010)

Gilgamesh is a villain therefore FF wins the Music Battle.


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## Goshinki (May 17, 2010)

Yadda yadda, One Winged Angel, I see that and raise you...

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRO-M4XyAbM[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=917Q8dbpRLE[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6yw2SmG674[/YOUTUBE][/QUOTE]

ME: My god. VEGETA! WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT THE COMBINED SONGS AWSOME LEVEL!

Vegeta: ITS OVER 9000! *breaks scouter*

Me:   What?! 9000! Okay I give up, You win.


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## Archreaper93 (May 17, 2010)

Shoddragon said:


> well although this might not help, final fantasy villains ( the series in general) are highly wanked. noone really wanks disney villains. also, disney villains are more memorable IMO. everyone knows jafar, but *not everyone knows *people like exdeath or ultimecia or *sephiroth*.



I believe that Sephiroth is probably one of, if not the, most famous characters in the Final Fantasy series.


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## DjChopper24 (May 24, 2010)

jedijohn said:


> I believe that Sephiroth is probably one of, if not the, most famous characters in the Final Fantasy series.



He actually is.


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## shadowhighwind (May 24, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> He only did either of the things you mentioned because he knew he was on the cusp of ultimate power.



Twisting the facts of a villain you like just to make him seem better doesn't make it true. Kuja revels in others suffering. The guy has NO REGARD for life other than his own; that's kind of the point of FF9. Kuja has no value in life; everything he looks at, its from a "ME ME ME!" perspective; this is why he goes insane when he learns he's going to die after all.




Zaelapolopollo said:


> He shows up when it fits in with his plan. Every other time he sits back and manipualtes things from the shadows.




FF9, he had resources to pull it off, and a Tool in Brahne, whose nothing more than an ignorant, arrogant woman, to take control of.
Dissidia, the other 9 Villains are much smarter than Brahne, and would immediately figure out Kuja's up to something if he tried something like that. Furthermore, in FF9, nobody knew anything about Kuja so he could stay under people's radars much longer. This is completely not the case with Dissidia however, so Kuja can't do this ****.







Zaelapolopollo said:


> Yes they are. They're just pawns in a great cosmic struggle. Only The Emperor and Garland realized this fact. Garland didn't care and The Emperor tried (and failed) to escape his fate as a pawn.



Strawmaning my argument. What I mean is that none of them are tools to one another. Chaos is obviously something else.

The closest we have to villains being tools are Cloud of Darkness and Jecht. Cloud of Darkness mostly just does whatever Kefka wants her to do, but that's probably more cause CoD is the most obsessed with destruction of even the destroyers, so really, she's more just "Doesn't care." Jecht was trying to negotiate, and knew he was being used, but went along with it anyway cause he also has fun with a good fight.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> Whatever. Dissidia is worthless and should be ignored when it comes to characterization. FFIX is all that matters for Kuja.



You're missing the point entirely.
Kuja had the resources to pull off all that **** in FF9, and even then, he had some really big blunders (Alexandria, for example, he nearly got himself killed cause he was too blind to figure out that Garland was KEEPING WATCH ON HIM THE ENTIRE TIME. He seriously thought he could get away with all that ****, and that he was fooling Garland, when in fact, Garland was onto him the entire time.) Dissidia, he not.

You still have failed to acknowledge this too:
Why does Kuja's worth matter for Kefka? They're both very different villains outside of how they love to watch others suffer. Kuja's being good has little to do with Kefka's worth.

Actually, didn't this whole Kuja argument start because of Dissidia? You whined about how Dissidia poorly presented Kuja, I countered. Now you're saying it doesn't matter, when it was the very thing being argued? You seriously need to rethink your argumentative strategies, as you aren't dismissing a mere point as being minor, you're trying to dismiss the very core idea of what's being argued, which is pretty much the single worst strawman ever.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> Dissidia is only good for giving personality to those who had none. The heroes and villains from FF1-3 for instance. Everyone who already had a personality was just ruined.



First off, you act like Cecil has SO MUCH PERSONALITY to ruin (Hint: He doesn't. Try to find genuine personality in Cecil, you will fail; his characterization is basically "Generic Hero #7").

Branching from that, what a lovely blanket statement. Explain how they were ruined maybe.
I mean, lets start with Squall; explain how he wasn't an Anti-social Jackass who slowly opens up to others, and learns the importance of friendship and comrades?


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 24, 2010)

> Twisting the facts of a villain you like just to make him seem better doesn't make it true.



And when you misunderstand someone and then attack them out of that misunderstanding you look foolish.

Here's what you said
"Did you forget what he's like in his first battle with him? He's constantly taunting and laughing at you as you hit him." 

What I said:
He only did either of the things you mentioned because he knew he was on the cusp of ultimate power.

It has nothing to do with Kuja being selfish or not. I'm pointing out how only showed himself and was enjoying being hit because he knew it all would only help him achieve his supreme power.



> Kuja revels in others suffering. The guy has NO REGARD for life other than his own; that's kind of the point of FF9. Kuja has no value in life; everything he looks at, its from a "ME ME ME!" perspective; this is why he goes insane when he learns he's going to die after all.



This is true. His massive ego is to compensate for his immense vulnerability.



> First off, you act like Cecil has SO MUCH PERSONALITY to ruin (Hint: He doesn't. Try to find genuine personality in Cecil, you will fail; his characterization is basically "Generic Hero #7").



Never finished FFIV. 



> Branching from that, what a lovely blanket statement. Explain how they were ruined maybe.
> I mean, lets start with Squall; explain how he wasn't an Anti-social Jackass who slowly opens up to others, and learns the importance of friendship and comrades?



Except that he already did his changing. He should be a nice mentally healthy (kinda) person in Dissidia. All they did was flip the rewind switch.

And my main beef with Dissidia is Golbez and Jecht being on the side of Chaos when neither of them are bad guys.

But you're right. I am backtracking. Because I am bored of this. So I concede.

Though on the topic of Kuja vs. Kefka, I think Kuja is better because he has actual legitimate reasons for why he's doing what he's doing. He's a very human and sympathetic character.


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## Emperor Joker (May 24, 2010)

Should have been Seymour instead of Jecht to be honest...


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 24, 2010)

^ this is the truth. From what I heard, Kain and Seifer were the first choices for FFIV and VIII but they settled on Golbez and Ultimecia because of some bullshit. I think Seifer was cut because he'd play too much like Squall or something.


----------



## DjChopper24 (May 24, 2010)

Actually, shadow YOU was the one that menioned Dissidia and begin this argument, ignoring this part of Zaelapolopollo post:



> Okay. So he was creative for the time. You are right.
> But so what? Doesn't make him better than villains who came after. Since you're saying all the villains before were bland and Kefka had some depth then the villains who came after Kefka had even more depth. Which happens to be the case.


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## shadowhighwind (May 24, 2010)

DjChopper24 said:


> Actually, shadow YOU was the one that menioned Dissidia and begin this argument, ignoring this part of Zaelapolopollo post:



Or you're not paying attention to the actual argument.

He makes that statement. I bring up the fact that Kefka is still unique by TODAY's standards and he still stands out, and use Dissidia to help illustrate this point. There aren't that many evil Clowns in RPGs, and in all the games I've played, the only Evil Clowns that are portrayed as primary villains (as opposed to henchman) are DMC3 Jester and Dhoulmagus of DQ8 (the latter is NOTHING like Kefka, though; he looks like a clown and has an evil laugh, but he's pretty much a serious guy the entire game.)
NOTE: I specified Games here for a reason, so don't go bringing up people like The Joker, who isn't of video game origin.

He then goes "Dissidia doesn't matter cause Gabranth and Kuja were poorly represented!" I countered this. He has yet to really refute my Dissidia thing, cause it was a good example. His entire argument for refuting Dissidia is "Characters were poorly represented"; I went and showed its wrong. He hasn't done a good job defending his side, and has resorted to the old "But it doesn't matter!"

So my point still fits, he just hasn't actually figured out what's going on. Kefka is still unique by today's standards, and he's STILL one of the ONLY VILLAINS TO ACTUALLY SUCCEED IN THE FACE OF INTERVENTION. All other villain "successes" are either:
-Almost Successes: They get their big massive WoMD, but then the heroes blow it up before they take over/destroy the world/humanity with it. See Sephiroth w/ Meteor or Zemus w/ the Giant.
-Success is within the backstory; we don't actually see it happen, backstory aside, and its not related to your characters; the villain did not overcome your heroes intervention, and its not really part of the villain's development. See FF10's Yunalesca as a prime example.


----------



## shadowhighwind (May 24, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> It has nothing to do with Kuja being selfish or not. I'm pointing out how only showed himself and was enjoying being hit because he knew it all would only help him achieve his supreme power.



My point was with the scenario of Kuja laughing was that he very much IS manic. Someone calm and collected wouldn't be laughing his ass off, they'd be trying to keep a straight face. There are other villains that pull off these absurd gambits, but they're able to keep a straight face through it all.

The point of the laughing thing was that you were whining that all Kuja does is LAUGH! and what not; I was noting that this is in character for Kuja. When things start going his way, he gets excited.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> Except that he already did his changing. He should be a nice mentally healthy (kinda) person in Dissidia. All they did was flip the rewind switch.



They did a reboot for everyone in Dissidia from FF6-10. It'd be really boring working with fully developed characters in a genuine story, especially since some of them just don't really work, since the "Conflict" nature is important.

The Devs stated they wanted to deal with certain relationships that the home games didn't get much of a chance to deal with. Tidus vs. Jecht was the one noted, cause (adult)Tidus and Jecht never interact until the VERY END OF THE GAME, and by then, the conflict has more or less resolved itself. In order for it to work, a rewind was needed.

Or look at Terra vs. Kefka. If we took end game Terra, without the whole power loss thing, what do we have? Girl with immense powers ready to go all out who isn't afraid of ****...so the conflict with her and Kefka would basically be a generic shonen rivalry between a Magical Girl and an Evil Clown. Lovely...
Turn the clock back with Terra a bit, reintroduce the "Fear of own powers" and "has problems finding her reason to fight" factors, suddenly there's something to work with. Also, we actually get to see Terra and Kefka interact directly, something FF6 was lacking in, and the final scene in Shade Impulse basically had Terra being her Endgame FF6 self anyway, standing up to Kefka, unafraid of him. Afterall, Kefka's trying to be all menacing, she just says "Stop fooling around".



Zaelapolopollo said:


> And my main beef with Dissidia is Golbez and Jecht being on the side of Chaos when neither of them are bad guys.




Nomura stated "Not everyone on Chaos' side is evil." He goes onto state that everyone on Chaos' side has their own agendas and what not, and that being a team just means "They won't fight each other" and nothing else. Contrast to the Cosmos side who all do have a common agenda and ultimately work together as a result once their own personal issues are resolved.

Also, do remember that Dissidia has Emperor state this:
"Actually, Jecht, in truth, you were a member of Cosmos in the past."

Jecht had lost his memory of previous wars where he was allied to Cosmos. Similarly, Terra was originally a member of Chaos.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> But you're right. I am backtracking. Because I am bored of this. So I concede.



Ok, then?


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 25, 2010)

Okay then.
Everyone's happy.


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## Axl Low (May 25, 2010)

jedijohn said:


> I believe that Sephiroth is probably one of, if not the, most famous characters in the Final Fantasy series.





DjChopper24 said:


> He actually is.



And the most overrated villain of the series to boot as well :33


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## Sephiroth (May 25, 2010)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> ^ this is the truth. From what I heard, Kain and Seifer were the first choices for FFIV and VIII but they settled on Golbez and Ultimecia because of some bullshit. I think Seifer was cut because he'd play too much like Squall or something.



Well you wouldn't put Rufus over Sephiroth or Orthros over Cefka would you?


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 25, 2010)

But no one cares about Ultimecia.
No offense to Ultimecia.

Seifer is definitely more popular than Ulty.


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## Sephiroth (May 25, 2010)

I care about her. 

She has a decent following, as does FF8 in general, plus someone weak like Seifer doesn't really belong in the grand group of big baddies.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 25, 2010)

Before Dissidia, I wouldn't have thought Jecht was that strong on his own.

Seifer at least had cutting Odin in half.


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## Sephiroth (May 25, 2010)

Well he was a guardian turned into the strongest Aeon, so it would be best to assume he was very powerful as a human.


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## Zaelapolopollo (May 25, 2010)

Well whatever. When Dissidia 2 inevitably comes out, Seifer will be there.

So it's all rather moot I guess.


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