# Sanji vs Zoro



## Great Potato (Mar 21, 2011)

People tend to agree that Sanji is slightly weaker than Zoro, but is the gap small for Sanji to win here.

Battlefield: Saboady Archipelego
Distance: 100 meters
State of mind: IC
All injuries healed

_Scenario 1-_ TB versions of each. Zoro is only allowed two swords.
_Scenario 2-_ TB Sanji vs EL Zoro. Zoro has all three swords.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Coruscation (Mar 21, 2011)

Zoro might lose the 1st scenario. It could end up depending on whether he can actually use Ashura with only 2 swords or not, it isn't particularly clear as of now, but I won't say that he couldn't possibly win even without it as he has greater endurance and damage soak and is physically stronger (c'mon, Sanji constantly throws insults at Zoro rooted in his enormous muscle mass). Nevertheless, the edge should likely be Sanji's if no Ashura.

However scenario 2 goes to Zoro IMO. I don't believe that the gap is small enough that Sanji will reach full-power Zoro's level from an arc back unless it's a rather special one like EL Sanji vs. Skypiea Zoro.


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## Z (Mar 21, 2011)

I think Zoro takes both scenarios. The gap between Zoro and Sanji is very underrated sometimes in my opinion.


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## tminty1 (Mar 22, 2011)

I think Zoro wins both scenarios because he can take way more damage than Sanji. And most of Zoro's attacks will be life threatening to Sanji as any attack could kill him.


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## Wade (Mar 22, 2011)

tminty1 said:


> I think Zoro wins both scenarios because he can take way more damage than Sanji.


That's not clear.


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## BitterCold (Mar 22, 2011)

Sanji wins with mid difficulty in both scenarios


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## The Red Gil (Mar 22, 2011)

Don't see Sanji winning any of them.

Scenario one is his best chance. Scenario 2 is overkill.. well not overkill, but Zoro should defeat him with mild difficulty.

Sanji fanboys need to stomach the fact that he's 3rd best on the ship.


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

The Red Gil said:


> Don't see Sanji winning any of them.
> 
> Scenario one is his best chance. Scenario 2 is overkill.. well not overkill, but Zoro should defeat him with *mild difficulty.*
> 
> Sanji fanboys need to stomach the fact that he's 3rd best on the ship.



:sanji        .


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## The Red Gil (Mar 22, 2011)

We see mild as two different things. Relax.


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

Then you must be using the wrong word. No way Zoro's going to have anything but a hard time against Sanji, especially in the first scenario.


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## The Red Gil (Mar 22, 2011)

Nope, I use mild as something of a combination of Mid/High

You probably see it as casual/mid which is asinine.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

Sanji beats him with mid difficulty scenario 1.
Scenario 2 Zoro beats him but ends with a half burnt face like Shirohige.


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

Anyway, Sanji probably takes scenario one. Zoro having two swords doesn't just mean he has one less weapon, but he also can't perform his best style of fighting. That should close the small gap betwen him and Sanji.

Scenario 2 goes to Zoro with high difficulty. The SH's didn't get that much stronger between EL and TB (But they probably had a bigger strength compared to other arks, considering they fought opponents with higher difficulty than they ever had before).


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## NinnjaHero (Mar 22, 2011)

The Red Gil said:


> Don't see Sanji winning any of them.
> 
> Scenario one is his best chance. Scenario 2 is overkill.. well not overkill, but Zoro should defeat him with mild difficulty.
> 
> Sanji fanboys need to stomach the fact that he's 3rd best on the ship.



Sanji wins scenario 1.Loses scenario 2.

Sanji fanboys(me included) agree that Zoro is slightly stronger than Sanji.It is a reasonable thing since he is a first mate,but Sanji is SH tactician so no problem for fanboys.

But saying Zoro would own Sanji its retarded understatement.
EL Sanji got handicapped since he was injured,yet he owned Jyabura the same way Zoro owned Kaku.

Zoro owned Ryuma with two swords.Sanji had a handicap because he protected Nami and Absolom got free hits, yet when Sanji got serious he destroyer Absalom.

So your point retarded.

M3 power is Really close.


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## The Red Gil (Mar 22, 2011)

You're comparing Absalom to Ryuuma?

:elderryoma


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

The Red Gil said:


> You're comparing Absalom to Ryuuma?
> 
> :elderryoma



Ryuma was fodder not even considered one of the top Moria's men, Absalom was one of Moria's top men.
Absalom > Ryuma GTFO


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## The Red Gil (Mar 22, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Ryuma was fodder not even considered one of the top Moria's men, Absalom was one of Moria's top men.
> Absalom > Ryuma GTFO



How to respond to this without insulting your mother.



On-topic. You're just wrooong boy.


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

The Red Gil said:


> How to respond to this without insulting your mother.
> 
> 
> 
> On-topic. You're just wrooong boy.



Give me a fucking panel where Ryuma is called the 2nd strongest of Thriller Bark. 1 panel...otherwise keep fapping to your mom in your closet....


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## The Red Gil (Mar 22, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Give me a fucking panel where Ryuma is called the 2nd strongest of Thriller Bark. 1 panel...otherwise keep fapping to your mom in your closet....



Stop it, please. You're killing me.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

The Red Gil said:


> Stop it, please.
> 
> Debating with you kills sperm cells. Which I need.



Well you need them to fap for your mama so yes I wont bother anymore with you.


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

Absalom didn't have any "special body".

There's also something called common sence Gaara. Do you honestly think a guy who was on even terms with Zoro is weaker than a dude who got stomped by Sanji?


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> Absalom didn't have any "special body".
> 
> There's also something called common sence Gaara. Do you honestly think a guy who was on even terms with Zoro is weaker than a dude who got stomped by Sanji?


Common sense.
Yes you lack it.
Is every swordsmann supposed to be the 2nd strongest of the crew.
No.
Ryuma got raped by Zoro.
He was beaten in one chapter and after beating him Zoro could fight Moria with Oars and Kuma.
So yes
Absalom > Ryuma
Absalom had a special fruit which exceeds the power of Ryuma's.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Mar 22, 2011)

Gaara I didn't expect this even from you


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Common sense.
> Yes you lack it.
> Is every swordsmann supposed to be the 2nd strongest of the crew.
> No.
> ...



Are you implying that Sanji is stronger than Zoro?

Putting that aside for a second, Zoro had a hard fight with Ryuuma. He even admitted this himself. It ended so quickly because the two were close in terms of power and had very similar fighting styles. Though you're obviously to dense to grasp that.

You're still ignoring the fact that Sanji was roflstomping Abasalom, despite him having a broken ass fruit. If Abasalom>Ryuuma, then there's a good chance that Sanji would be stronger than Luffy .


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

Really people  ! because that guy gave 2 sword Zoro a 5 minute fight, he is stronger than Absalom who uses Bazookas and is Invisible !?


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## Great Potato (Mar 22, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> Absalom didn't have any "special body".
> 
> There's also something called common sence Gaara. Do you honestly think a guy who was on even terms with Zoro is weaker than a dude who got stomped by Sanji?



Absalom did have a special body. Hogback gave him the jaw strength of a lion, the hard skin of an elephant, and the strength of a gorilla and bear.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> Are you implying that Sanji is stronger than Zoro?
> 
> Putting that aside for a second, Zoro had a hard fight with Ryuuma. He even admitted this himself. It ended so quickly because the two were close in terms of power and had very similar fighting styles. Though you're obviously to dense to grasp that.
> 
> You're still ignoring the fact that Sanji was roflstomping Abasalom, despite him having a broken ass fruit. If Abasalom>Ryuuma, then there's a good chance that Sanji would be stronger than Luffy .



Zoro ended the fight without a single wound. 
Sounds like rape to me.


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## Ultra (Mar 22, 2011)

Gaara, do you ever notice that Zoro ends his fights with one, clean cut?

Well, Ryuuma does the same thing. That's why Zoro came out of that fight unscathed.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

Well in his other fights like against Daz Bones Zoro was swimming in blood. Thats what high difficulty means.


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## Butt Hole lol (Mar 22, 2011)

Abosalam stronger then Ryuuma?


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Mar 22, 2011)

Why wasnt Ryuma one of the Top 3 of the TB ?
You cant answer....


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## Heretic (Mar 22, 2011)

Great Potato said:


> _Scenario 1-_ TB versions of each. Zoro is only allowed two swords.
> _Scenario 2-_ TB Sanji vs EL Zoro. Zoro has all three swords.



Zoro is stronger and much more durable than Sanji. His weapons give him an edge in combat, and their speed is so close that neither has an advantage or disadvantage in that regard.

However, if they fought 'til the death, it would still take just about everything Zoro had to defeat Sanji. Thus, I think Sanji would take both scenarios, first with high difficulty and second with extreme difficulty.


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## OMGitsKurt (Mar 22, 2011)

Scenario 1:Sanji wins medium difficulty

Zoro is known for his Santoryu, not his Nitoryu. With the lack of his 3rd sword, Zoro is at a handicap while Sanji is not.

Scenario 2: Zoro wins with high difficulty

The reason I believe it would be a hard fought match is that the closest thing we have to gauging Sanji and Zoro's strengths by was Fukuro's Doriki calculations of Kaku and Jyabura (Kaku was ahead of Jyabura by 20). Considering that Sanji and Zoro had an equally difficult time defeating their opponents at Enies Lobby, I'm assuming the difference in power between Kaku and Jyabura is parallel to Zoro and Sanji's.


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## Emperor Raizen (Mar 23, 2011)

I like how people suddenly claim Sanji is the weakest of the Monster Trio even though his _kicks_ do almost as much damage as *sword swipes* and Devil Fruit-enhanced blows; his physical strength is probably the greatest as well as speed as long as G3 and G2 are restricted.

Scenario 1: Sanji owns Zoro with low to mid difficulty.
Scenario 2: Zoro barely manages to defeat Sanji with extremely high difficulty. 

Sanji actually seems to be more powerful considering a handicapped Sanji murked Jyabura whereas Zoro had a noticeably greater trouble with Kaku although neither had anywhere near as much trouble as Luffy did against Rob Lucci. I was also more impressed by Absalom than Ryuma who even Brook managed to hold his own against. Zoro only showed his 'dominance' against Kuma although Sanji was willing to die for the swordsman who was ready to die for the Captain so meh.


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## Kishido (Mar 23, 2011)

Done to death. Same answer... 

1. Sanji wins with high difficult
2. Zoro wins after a hell fo a fight


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## Thdyingbreed (Mar 23, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> I like how people suddenly claim Sanji is the weakest of the Monster Trio even though his _kicks_ do almost as much damage as *sword swipes* and Devil Fruit-enhanced blows; his physical strength is probably the greatest as well as speed as long as G3 and G2 are restricted.
> 
> Scenario 1: Sanji owns Zoro with low to mid difficulty.
> Scenario 2: Zoro barely manages to defeat Sanji with extremely high difficulty.
> ...


Sanji's kicks are definitely not as lethal as Zoro's sword slashes. Zoro's attacks are far more lethal for obvious reasons and that is why his fights are usually over very quickly.

But anyways 

Scenario 1: Sanji takes scenario one with high difficulty Zoro with two swords isn't going down easily.

Scenario 2: Zoro takes this with extremely high difficulty


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## macragge101 (Apr 5, 2011)

Sanji is always underestimated . I remember when he was first introduced and had that awesome feat vs Don Krieg where he kicked the fish-ship.... Those were the days


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 6, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Sanji's kicks are definitely not as lethal as Zoro's sword slashes. Zoro's attacks are far more lethal for obvious reasons and that is why his fights are usually over very quickly.


@TDB: I think you're reading some whacky fanfiction rather than the actual series the rest of us are reading. Zoro's fights take a LOT longer than Sanji's which is why he's always bloody at the end, Sanji always stomps his enemy much faster. And it's funny that you're trying to claim base Luffy or Zoro are physically stronger than Sanji considering 1 needs a Devil Fruit and the other needs swords to do the same damage as his kicks.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Scenario 1: Sanji takes scenario one with high difficulty Zoro with two swords isn't going down easily.


Zoro struggled with somebody of _Ryoma's_ calibur when he used 2-sword style; there's no way in hell *Sanji's* winning with high difficulty.


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 6, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> @TDB: I think you're reading some whacky fanfiction rather than the actual series the rest of us are reading. Zoro's fights take a LOT longer than Sanji's which is why he's always bloody at the end, Sanji always stomps his enemy much faster. And it's funny that you're trying to claim base Luffy or Zoro are physically stronger than Sanji considering 1 needs a Devil Fruit and the other needs swords to do the same damage as his kicks.


If you haven't noticed Zoro almost always ends his fights in one shots the only real exceptions to that is Ryuuma. I haven't ever seen Sanji one shot any of his opponents. 

That means nothing just because they have different fighting styles doesn't make them any weaker but Sword slashes are far more lethal then kicks.


Emperor Raizen said:


> Zoro struggled with somebody of _Ryoma's_ calibur when he used 2-sword style; there's no way in hell *Sanji's* winning with high difficulty.


Your point? Zoro with 2 swords is still very dangerous and you seem to be underrating him.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 6, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> If you haven't noticed Zoro almost always ends his fights in one shots the only real exceptions to that is Ryuuma. I haven't ever seen Sanji one shot any of his opponents.


One-shotting an opponent doesn't mean shit; I guess you also believe Asura > Gear Third because even Luffy doesn't one-shot people. Sanji always ends his fights the quickest regardless of Zoro 'one-shotting' his opponent which has a direct correlation with his lethality and speed. Something of interest is that Sanji is also almost always damaged prior to his fights as seen in Thriller Bark and Enies Lobby.



Thdyingbreed said:


> That means nothing just because they have different fighting styles doesn't make them any weaker but Sword slashes are far more lethal then kicks.


Actually, Sanji's kicks are a lot more lethal considering they do as much damage as sword swipes.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Your point? Zoro with 2 swords is still very dangerous and you seem to be underrating him.


You've effectively lowered Zoro's fighting power by a vast amount which is significant considering Zoro needs all 3 swords just to fight on par with Sanji. Zoro with 1 sword would struggle with the likes of Chopper, Brook, and Franky.


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## Kishido (Apr 7, 2011)

Zoro with one sword woule own all of the crew besides Sanji and Luffy.


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## Plain Scarfs (Apr 7, 2011)

Zoro takes it. Sanji has nothing to defend against Zoro's blades with, and I'm sure his training with Mihawk was much more effective than the time Sanji spent in the Okama kingdom.


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## Kishido (Apr 7, 2011)

There it is. Only a swordsman can figth a swordsman and there is no way of defending without a sword.

And funny that everyone knows already what they are capable off without serious feats post TS.

And Sanji really looked bad compared to Zoro and Luffy post TS... Oh wait... He did the same as Zoro and Luffy... but how... he was only running away 2 years straight by manhunting Okamas and on top of that had to fight 99 masters of them which may consider Iva as well.

What a pussy training... but don't worry. Soon Usopp will be monster trio instead of Sanji.


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## Hokage Minato (Apr 7, 2011)

Sanji is one of my favorites of one piece but Zoro wins.


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## Kishido (Apr 7, 2011)

Yeah with two sword. Zoro doesn't need any sword for Sanji after all


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 7, 2011)

If zoro has shuusui in the first scenerio then im putting my money on him.

Second scenerio zoro wins, there isnt much of a difference in power from EL to TB.


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 7, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> One-shotting an opponent doesn't mean shit; I guess you also believe Asura > Gear Third because even Luffy doesn't one-shot people. Sanji always ends his fights the quickest regardless of Zoro 'one-shotting' his opponent which has a direct correlation with his lethality and speed. Something of interest is that Sanji is also almost always damaged prior to his fights as seen in Thriller Bark and Enies Lobby.


Yes it does mean shit when Zoro's been able to one shot most of his opponents who are always stronger then Sanji's. Who's never one shotted any of his opponents It means his sword slashes are obviously stronger.So what Zoro gets handicapped a lot worse then Sanji ever has.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Actually, Sanji's kicks are a lot more lethal considering they do as much damage as sword swipes.


If Sanji's kicks are so much more lethal why has he never one shotted any of his opponets like Zoro has?



Emperor Raizen said:


> You've effectively lowered Zoro's fighting power by a vast amount which is significant considering Zoro needs all 3 swords just to fight on par with Sanji. Zoro with 1 sword would struggle with the likes of Chopper, Brook, and Franky.


Oh wow if you truly believe that then I'm not going to bother wasting time with you.

That's basically saying the same as like weakling trio>Luffy without gears/haki.


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## NinnjaHero (Apr 7, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Yes it does mean shit when Zoro's been able to one shot most of his opponents who are always stronger then Sanji's. Who's never one shotted any of his opponents It means his sword slashes are obviously stronger.So what Zoro gets handicapped a lot worse then Sanji ever has.
> 
> 
> If Sanji's kicks are so much more lethal why has he never one shotted any of his opponets like Zoro has?
> ...




Sure one shotted after using 30 attacks, damn that Zoro must be lethal


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 7, 2011)

EDIT: :rofl. It's pretty funny I get negged by random people who can't even man up and debate me..



Thdyingbreed said:


> Yes it does mean shit when Zoro's been able to one shot most of his opponents who are always stronger then Sanji's. Who's never one shotted any of his opponents It means his sword slashes are obviously stronger.So what Zoro gets handicapped a lot worse then Sanji ever has.


It doesn't mean shit when even _Luffy_ hasn't one-shot his opponents. Unless you think Zoro's *stronger* than his Captain. The only time that Zoro was more handicapped than Sanji was against Hachi and Post-Kuma but most of the work was done by Luffy and Sanji anyways aside from Thriller Bark.



Thdyingbreed said:


> If Sanji's kicks are so much more lethal why has he never one shotted any of his opponets like Zoro has?


Sanji's kicks >>>>> Zoro's punches; Zoro needs 3 swords to do a bit more damage than a kick from Sanji and Luffy needs his Gomu Gomu Fruit.



Thdyingbreed said:


> That's basically saying the same as like weakling trio>Luffy without gears/haki.


It's called common sense: Brook was holding his own against Ryoma who even Zoro with 2 swords struggled with; there's no way in hell that he can beat somebody of Sanji's calibur who he NEEDS 3 swords just to fight on par with in the first place. He'd definitely struggle with Franky, Chopper, and Brook with 1 sword; I also don't know why you're bringing the Captain into this as he's more powerful than his Officers which means there's no way the Weakling Trio is beating him.


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 8, 2011)

NinnjaHero said:


> Sure one shotted after using 30 attacks, damn that Zoro must be lethal


You know there's a little thing called blocking? But whenever Zoro's sword slash actually connects the opponents are down.




Emperor Raizen said:


> It doesn't mean shit when even _Luffy_ hasn't one-shot his opponents. Unless you think Zoro's *stronger* than his Captain. The only time that Zoro was more handicapped than Sanji was against Hachi and Post-Kuma but most of the work was done by Luffy and Sanji anyways aside from Thriller Bark.


The point stands that Sanji has never been as handicapped as he has done to Zoro ever. Also just because Zoro's sword slashes are more lethal doesn't mean there stronger just his hits are a lot more lethal.




Emperor Raizen said:


> Sanji's kicks >>>>> Zoro's punches; Zoro needs 3 swords to do a bit more damage than a kick from Sanji and Luffy needs his Gomu Gomu Fruit.


Yeah I guess you missed the part in El where Zoro was throwing buildings with his hands. Zoro has a lot of strength and can hold his own without his swords.

The only reason his swords are so strong is because he is that strong. Unless you except someone like Usopp could one shot Mr.1 back in Arabasta.


Emperor Raizen said:


> It's called common sense: Brook was holding his own against Ryoma who even Zoro with 2 swords struggled with; there's no way in hell that he can beat somebody of Sanji's calibur who he NEEDS 3 swords just to fight on par with in the first place. He'd definitely struggle with Franky, Chopper, and Brook with 1 sword; I also don't know why you're bringing the Captain into this as he's more powerful than his Officers which means there's no way the Weakling Trio is beating him.


Brook admitted during Zoro's fight against Ryuuma that Ryuuma wasn't even trying against him and the fact that Zoro beat Ryuuma with 2 swords. He should beat Brook easily.

It would be more difficult to beat them with 1 or 2 swords but Zoro has shown he's not just skilled Santroyu.

So Zoro is the second strongest and the gap between him and Luffy isn't huge. He should be able to beat all of the Strawhats with 1-2 swords except Sanji who he will need 3 swords for and Luffy.

But he can definitely fight on par with Sanji with 1-2 swords but he will lose out in the end as Sanji will take it with high difficulty.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> You know there's a little thing called blocking? But whenever Zoro's sword slash actually connects the opponents are down.


I know this comment wasn't directed at me but you're pulling shit outta your ass. *None* of Zoro's opponents blocked _each_ of his slashes except the final one. And you act like the people Luffy and Sanji fight don't dodge and block either.



Thdyingbreed said:


> The point stands that Sanji has never been as handicapped as he has done to Zoro ever. Also just because Zoro's sword slashes are more lethal doesn't mean there stronger just his hits are a lot more lethal.


I don't understand the first part. As for the second part, that makes no sense whatsoever considering lethality depends on strength, I guess Usopp who's physically weaker than Nami and Robin is almost as lethal as Chopper because they have similar strength levels.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Yeah I guess you missed the part in El where Zoro was throwing buildings with his hands. Zoro has a lot of strength and can hold his own without his swords.


And Sanji was kicking around buildings at Oz like they were soccer balls. If Zoro were so strong, he wouldn't need swords to beat Sanji.



Thdyingbreed said:


> The only reason his swords are so strong is because he is that strong. Unless you except someone like Usopp could one shot Mr.1 back in Arabasta.


Moot point. Usopp is a weakling and not even a swordsman. Brook hasn't exactly shown superhuman strength and he's as deadly a fighter as Franky who's the 4th strongest crew member.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Brook admitted during Zoro's fight against Ryuuma that Ryuuma wasn't even trying against him and the fact that Zoro beat Ryuuma with 2 swords. He should beat Brook easily.


Ryuuma was trying, he just didn't go all out. Ryuuma didn't try against the Weakling Trio because they seemed like 'friends'.



Thdyingbreed said:


> It would be more difficult to beat them with 1 or 2 swords but Zoro has shown he's not just skilled Santroyu.


He'd be able to beat Franky\Robin\Brooke with 2 swords but there's no way in hell he's beating those 3 or Monster Point Chopper with a single sword.



Thdyingbreed said:


> So Zoro is the second strongest and the gap between him and Luffy isn't huge. He should be able to beat all of the Strawhats with 1-2 swords except Sanji who he will need 3 swords for and Luffy.


The power gap between and Luffy is huge. Enies Lobby established that Sanji and Zoro were peers and their Captain was almost twice as strong. This is confirmed Post-Timeskip; Luffy one-shot a Pacifsta while Zoro\Sanji 'two-shot' theirs. Hell, we don't even know if those 2 have HAKI or not.



Thdyingbreed said:


> But he can definitely fight on par with Sanji with 1-2 swords but he will lose out in the end as Sanji will take it with high difficulty.


Sanji takes it with mid difficulty at best.


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## Stilzkin (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> The power gap between and Luffy is huge. Enies Lobby established that Sanji and Zoro were peers and their Captain was almost twice as strong. This is confirmed Post-Timeskip; Luffy one-shot a Pacifsta while Zoro\Sanji 'two-shot' theirs. Hell, we don't even know if those 2 have HAKI or not.



Luffy was dying with after fighting Lucci, Sanji and Zorro were running around and acting like nothing after their's. Sanji and Zorro also did not get to use there new power up for very long as their opponents went down so quickly afterwards.

Luffy is obviously not twice as strong as them.

Zorro cut the Px in half, Sanji broke its neck like Luffy did. They both one shotted the Px at the same time.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

1. It's funny that you omit the fact that Rob Lucci was more bloodthirsty than Kaku attributed to his predatory Zoan type. I like how you omit that Rob Lucci's the only one who had mastered techniques like Life Return and Rokugan which the other 2 hadn't. Interesting how you omit that Luffy fought 2 CP9 members, like Sanji.

2. I know he's not twice as strong but he's a cut-above them; it's like comparing Usopp\Nami to Franky\Brook.

3. Cool. Luffy's 1 hit = their 2 hits.


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## Stilzkin (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> 1. It's funny that you omit the fact that Rob Lucci was more bloodthirsty than Kaku attributed to his predatory Zoan type. I like how you omit that Rob Lucci's the only one who had mastered techniques like Life Return and Rokugan which the other 2 hadn't. Interesting how you omit that Luffy fought 2 CP9 members, like Sanji.



Its funny that you omit all of my mentions of Sanji. I wasn't only talking Zoro.

Sanji fought a carnivor zoan.

Life Return provides a minimal boost to fighting in Lucci's case, I honestly can't see it changing the course of a fight.

Lucci was not the only one who had special skills, Jyabura was the only one who could move with Tekkai meaning he could punch and kick you with steel fists and legs.

Lucci also didn't have a move as big as Amane-dachi.



> 2. I know he's not twice as strong but he's a cut-above them; it's like comparing Usopp\Nami to Franky\Brook.



Its not, asura and DJ give them something to compete with the power given to Luffy by the gears. The thing Luffy has going for him is G2's speed, and like we saw in Zoro's and Sanji's fights even if they can't travel as fast as their opponents they can still fight them. Luffy also fought Kuro even though he was a lot faster than him.



> 3. Cool. Luffy's 1 hit = their 2 hits.



They killed the Px with each of their hits, the fact that they both hit the same Px doesn't change that they both hit him with enough force to kill the Px.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

Stilzkin said:


> Its funny that you omit all of my mentions of Sanji. I wasn't only talking Zoro.
> 
> Sanji fought a carnivor zoan.
> 
> ...


Sanji fought a carnivorous Zoan AND his opponent could use Tekkai while mobile AND he was damaged beforehand but he's still not even close to Luffy's level of power.

Life Return made Robby's hulking leopard form lighter on his feet.

The only time a 'big move' is useful is when it's super slow like a Gear 3rd hit which is so massive that speed is moot.



Stilzkin said:


> Its not, asura and DJ give them something to compete with the power given to Luffy by the gears. The thing Luffy has going for him is G2's speed, and like we saw in Zoro's and Sanji's fights even if they can't travel as fast as their opponents they can still fight them. Luffy also fought Kuro even though he was a lot faster than him.


The reason that Zoro and Sanji could react to their opponents was because they both have super-speed; that's how Zoro kept up with Kaku and Sanji blitzed Jyabura.
And Kuro's moot because he couldn't even control where he was going which is why he killed most of his crewmates.



Stilzkin said:


> They killed the Px with each of their hits, the fact that they both hit the same Px doesn't change that they both hit him with enough force to kill the Px.


The fact that Luffy nonchalantly treated it like fodder and the other 2 bragged to each other despite both needing to attack proves Luffy's far more powerful than them.


----------



## Canute87 (Apr 8, 2011)

Zoro needs 100% of his abilities to beat Sanji.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 8, 2011)

With 2 swords Zoro gets stomped...
Whoever disagrees is an insane Zoro fanboy...


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## Black Duck (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> Sanji's kicks >>>>> Zoro's punches; Zoro needs 3 swords to do a bit more damage than a kick from Sanji and Luffy needs his Gomu Gomu Fruit.


Well of course Sanji's kicks are >>> Zoro's punches. Because Zoro doesn't use fists but swords. They both have different weapons with which they fight, so we ought to see who is going to win using his weapons! Which means: Sanji's kicks VS Zoro's swords.




Emperor Raizen said:


> It's called common sense: Brook was holding his own against Ryoma who even Zoro with 2 swords struggled with; *there's no way in hell that he can beat somebody of Sanji's calibur who he NEEDS 3 swords just to fight on par with in the first place.* He'd definitely struggle with Franky, Chopper, and Brook with 1 sword; I also don't know why you're bringing the Captain into this as he's more powerful than his Officers which means there's no way the Weakling Trio is beating him.


He needs those swords because these are his weapons (I keep saying about weapons, because with those our beloved characters manage to fight ) I would also like to add, that considering the enemies, It has always been 
Luffy VS strongest/boss/main villain,
 
Zoro VS second strongest (most of the times) or at least someone who's power/weapons have to do with swords,
 
Sanji VS third in strength (most of the times) or at least someone who's power/weapons have to do with martial arts or even cooking.
 Therefore, i believe that Zoro could win this (or in the worst situation, tie with Sanji)


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

@Black Duck: Of course, I don't think Sanji would beat 3-swords Zoro; I'm just stating that he'd obviously beat 2-swords Zoro without much effort though.


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## Black Duck (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> @Black Duck: Of course, I don't think Sanji would beat 3-swords Zoro; I'm just stating that he'd obviously beat 2-swords Zoro without much effort though.



I believe in this situation they would have a tie  It's just my point of view, however and i respect everyting has everyone said so far, because you guys have a god damn point ^^


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> I know this comment wasn't directed at me but you're pulling shit outta your ass. *None* of Zoro's opponents blocked _each_ of his slashes except the final one. And you act like the people Luffy and Sanji fight don't dodge and block either.


Kaku was blocking a lot of his slashes anyways that was the reason why I said when Zoro's hits actually connect it's usually a one hit ko.



Emperor Raizen said:


> I don't understand the first part. As for the second part, that makes no sense whatsoever considering lethality depends on strength, I guess Usopp who's physically weaker than Nami and Robin is almost as lethal as Chopper because they have similar strength levels.


Yeah it does make sense the stronger you are the more force you can put into the blows. It's pretty obvious that someone like Usopp wouldn't be able to defeat the same enemies Zoro would if he has swords. 



Emperor Raizen said:


> If Zoro were so strong, he wouldn't need swords to beat Sanji.


I never said Zoro would win just it's not going to be an easy victory for Sanji.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Moot point. Usopp is a weakling and not even a swordsman. Brook hasn't exactly shown superhuman strength and he's as deadly a fighter as Franky who's the 4th strongest crew member.


So? There's obviously a huge gap in strength between the MT and the rest of the crew. Brook is deadly against fodder thats pretty much it.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Ryuuma was trying, he just didn't go all out. Ryuuma didn't try against the Weakling Trio because they seemed like 'friends'.


He wasn't going all out or Oda wouldn't have had Brook said to emphasize the difference between the two of them.



Emperor Raizen said:


> He'd be able to beat Franky\Robin\Brooke with 2 swords but there's no way in hell he's beating those 3 or Monster Point Chopper with a single sword.


Chopper has no control in that form and is rather slow Zoro could dodge his attacks easily and take him out after a while.




Emperor Raizen said:


> The power gap between and Luffy is huge. Enies Lobby established that Sanji and Zoro were peers and their Captain was almost twice as strong. This is confirmed Post-Timeskip; Luffy one-shot a Pacifsta while Zoro\Sanji 'two-shot' theirs. Hell, we don't even know if those 2 have HAKI or not.


Both Zoro and Sanji's attacks were one hit ko shots on the Pacfista's as Zoro sliced it in half and Sanji broke it in half.
Hell Zoro hasn't even used any of his power ups Post-skip while Sanji/Luffy has been using gears/dj for most of there attacks.


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## Wade (Apr 8, 2011)

Zoro stomps him, obviously.


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## Kishido (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah there is no way of avoiding swords and all. Zoro wins with ease


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 8, 2011)

So is Sanji gonna dodge all his attacks? Cause he can't stop his swords with his legs....


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## Kishido (Apr 8, 2011)

How was Luffy able to do it against Zoro even if his stretching gives Zoro a bigger target? Ohh yeah Luffy is special? And not only against Zoro but against motherfucking non serious Mihawk who was still leagues above Zoro and Lucchi and his big ass charp claws or Enerus trident.

Ahh yeah there is no way

How someone like Garp, who has no fucking sword and is fighting with his arms, is able to stand at the very top, if people like Rayleig or Mihawk could slice him up?


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## ajinko (Apr 8, 2011)

zoro wins both scenarios. giving him two swords is not handicapping him. it just becomes a different technique. one sword techique, two swords technique, three sword technique, and ashura.  zoro has powerful moves in all those three techniques. sanji is strong but zoro is a beast.


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 8, 2011)

Blitzomaru said:


> So is Sanji gonna dodge all his attacks? Cause he can't stop his swords with his legs....



Kakus nose says hi.


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## Coruscation (Apr 8, 2011)

^Kaku's nose utilized Tekkai, I'm pretty sure.

But Sanji can very likely stop swords with his legs to some extent. Luffy met Zoro's bloodlusted Oni Giri *head on* with a Bazooka, and they clashed equally. May not make real-world sense, but that's irrelevant in the face of how Oda writes this in his fictional manga series.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

..I hope you realize you recycle like 50% of your arguments even after I debunk them 



Thdyingbreed said:


> Kaku was blocking a lot of his slashes anyways that was the reason why I said when Zoro's hits actually connect it's usually a one hit ko.


And I proved that's not true. At all. And, oh no way, it's not like Sanji's opponents block either. 



Thdyingbreed said:


> Yeah it does make sense the stronger you are the more force you can put into the blows. It's pretty obvious that someone like Usopp wouldn't be able to defeat the same enemies Zoro would if he has swords.


So explain how Zoro's slashes are more lethal than Sanji's kicks even though the latter has greater physical strength, mein square.



Thdyingbreed said:


> I never said Zoro would win just it's not going to be an easy victory for Sanji.


Jesus Christ. It's impossible to be this dense. Defeating Sanji with _3-swords_ would be the fight of his life; giving Sanji a hard time with *2-swords* isn't possible because he struggled with Ryuuma. I was honestly more impressed by Absalom than I was with Ryu.



Thdyingbreed said:


> So? There's obviously a huge gap in strength between the MT and the rest of the crew. Brook is deadly against fodder thats pretty much it.


There is. Just like there's a huge gap between the WT and the "middle trio". Zoro's going to struggle greatly with the likes of Zoro and Franky with a single sword.



Thdyingbreed said:


> He wasn't going all out or Oda wouldn't have had Brook said to emphasize the difference between the two of them.


Ryuuma would've killed Brook if Zoro hadn't saved him which confirms he was indeed going all out.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Chopper has no control in that form and is rather slow Zoro could dodge his attacks easily and take him out after a while.


He doesn't have complete control but he's not slow. He tagged Kumidoro using Soru.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Both Zoro and Sanji's attacks were one hit ko shots on the Pacfista's as Zoro sliced it in half and Sanji broke it in half.
> Hell Zoro hasn't even used any of his power ups Post-skip while Sanji/Luffy has been using gears/dj for most of there attacks.


Apparently, Zoro > Sanji > Luffy in your fantasy world, oh my Lawd.


----------



## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> ^Kaku's nose utilized Tekkai, I'm pretty sure.
> 
> But Sanji can very likely stop swords with his legs to some extent. Luffy met Zoro's bloodlusted Oni Giri *head on* with a Bazooka, and they clashed equally. May not make real-world sense, but that's irrelevant in the face of how Oda writes this in his fictional manga series.



Doesn't have as much to do with real world sense, more so than Luffy being far more durable than a regular human.


----------



## Ultra (Apr 8, 2011)

God Movement said:


> Doesn't have as much to do with real world sense, more so than Luffy being far more durable than a regular human.



Doesn't make any difference with Zoro being much stronger than a regular human as well. Luffy probably clashed by somehow hitting the flat of the blades, which should in theoury make them turn over if all the force in a sword swing is being exerted at the front of the blade.


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## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> Doesn't make any difference with Zoro being much stronger than a regular human as well. Luffy probably clashed by somehow hitting the flat of the blades, which should in theoury make them turn over if all the force in a sword swing is being exerted at the front of the blade.



Yes it does. I said Luffy is more *durable* than a normal human. Nothing about strength was mentioned (even though he is far stronger than a normal human too). His hands are metal-like as it stands, with a force equal to that of Zoro's there's no reason why he'd be cut. Although, he could have hit the flat side too. But I doubt it.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

..And yet somebody with Usopp's low-level of physical strength can slice him into ribbons; your reasoning makes no sense, mein square


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## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> ..And yet somebody with Usopp's low-level of physical strength can slice him into ribbons; your reasoning makes no sense, mein square





God Movement said:


> His hands are metal-like as it stands, *with a force equal to that of Zoro's there's no reason why he'd be cut.*



You lack reading comprehension. And where did Usopp ever slice Luffy to ribbons?


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## Coruscation (Apr 8, 2011)

> Doesn't have as much to do with real world sense, more so than Luffy being far more durable than a regular human.



Besides his general superhumanity, which Zoro and Sanji also share, Luffy is only more inherently durable to blunt force attacks. Cutting attacks, like... swords... cut him like normal, we've seen that countless times. Cutting attacks from someone as strong as Zoro would absolutely cut him. But he still stopped Zoro's all-out Oni Giri, somehow, with nothing but his limbs.




Here are the scans if someone wants to figure out what's going on. It sorta looks like he stops one sword with one foot, somehow, and grabs Zoro's wrists with his arms, or...? I dunno. Someone more analytically inclined have a go at it, please.


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## Ultra (Apr 8, 2011)

GM really .


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## Ultra (Apr 8, 2011)

God Movement said:


> Cut him, yeah, if he stood there waiting for them. But to charge in and combat Zoro's slashes with an equal or greater force, the damaged recieved will be greatly decreased.
> 
> Yes really.



Wut.

Last time I checked more force meant more damage.


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## Wade (Apr 8, 2011)

The fact that Luffy placed his foot on one sword is the proof that Sanji can block his attacks as well, which he already did during one of their numerous skirmishes. But come on, in a serious fight Zoro steamrolls Sanji.


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## Coruscation (Apr 8, 2011)

> Cutting attacks cut him like normal given they're strong enough. He isn't more susceptible to cutting attacks than Zoro or Sanji, he can also deal with cutting attacks that chop concrete like butter with little issues. Of course he gets nicked by cutting attacks on occasions, but really only ever so slightly. If he wasn't as durable as fuck they'd chop him in half or in more relation to Oda's personal style; knock him unconscious.



That's what I said. All you mentioned falls under "general superhumanity".



> Cut him, yeah, if he stood there waiting for them. But to charge in and combat Zoro's slashes with an equal or greater force, the damaged recieved will be greatly decreased.



How will the damage be _de_creased if Luffy forces his hands onto the sharp side of the sword that is coming at him with the full force of Zoro's arms? I'm pretty sure that does not make any kind of sense, it should only cut him worse. Which is sort of what I was getting at earlier, but...



> As far as I can see the swords don't actually make contact with his hands. He blocks the blade with his foot, and somehow gets one hand on Zoro's shoulder too.



...you might be right about this. In that case, forget about him stopping swords directly with his hands, but it still gives us an idea of how Oda means for physical combatants to deal with users of bladed weapons in his universe.


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## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> Wut.
> 
> Last time I checked more force meant more damage.



Not if he's running at Zoro with an equal or greater force to what Zoro's running at him with. I'm arguing that Luffy has metal-like limbs and that's why he doesn't get chopped to pieces, the principle of hardness is that a harder material can scratch a less hard material in all cases. But to cut deeper you need more force. Now if Luffy has hard limbs and is going at Zoro with an incredibly large force, greater than what Zoro is coming at him with then he's going to minimize the damage taken.



Coruscation said:


> How will the damage be _de_creased if Luffy forces his hands onto the sharp side of the sword that is coming at him with the full force of Zoro's arms? I'm pretty sure that does not make any kind of sense, it should only cut him worse. Which is sort of what I was getting at earlier, but...



Because by forcing his hands onto Zoro's blades he delivers an impact force opposing the force Zoro is coming at him with.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 8, 2011)

Zoro's fangays keep stupidly widening the almost non existant gap between Zoro and Sanji


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## Wade (Apr 8, 2011)

^ So you admit there is a gap.


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## Ultra (Apr 8, 2011)

God Movement said:


> Not if he's running at Zoro with an equal or greater force to what Zoro's running at him with. I'm arguing that Luffy has metal-like limbs and that's why he doesn't get chopped to pieces, the principle of hardness is that a harder material can scratch a less hard material in all cases. But to cut deeper you need more force. Now if Luffy has hard limbs and is going at Zoro with an incredibly large force, greater than what Zoro is coming at him with then he's going to minimize the damage taken.



GMlogic101: If I charge at a guy with body armor with a lance who's bigger than me while he's sprinting in my direction, he'll deflect all damage and I'll go flying backwards.

In other news, 10 people died today when an old man backed up and hit an S.U.V carrying a soccer team. More at 11.

P.S: Zoro technically exerts far more force because he's using a bladed weapon. Cutting techniques are technically just like blunt attacks exept all the energy is forced on a much smaller area.


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## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> GMlogic101: If I charge at a guy with body armor with a lance who's bigger than me while he's sprinting in my direction, he'll deflect all damage and I'll go flying backwards.
> 
> In other news, 10 people died today when an old man backed up and hit an S.U.V carrying a soccer team. More at 11.



What the hell are you talking about now?


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

God Movement said:


> You lack reading comprehension. And where did Usopp ever slice Luffy to ribbons?


Note that I said _can_.

Just like Sanji vs. Luffy is a bad match-up; Zoro vs. Luffy is a bad match-up.

If Luffy's impervious to blunt force, he's highly susceptible to sharp objects. 

An attack from the likes of: Zoro, Brook should slice rubber boy in half; I bet even Usopp could manage that feat.


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## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> Note that I said _can_.
> 
> Just like Sanji vs. Luffy is a bad match-up; Zoro vs. Luffy is a bad match-up.
> 
> ...



Err, no he isn't. Not more so than Zoro or Sanji.


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 8, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> ..I hope you realize you recycle like 50% of your arguments even after I debunk them


You've debunked nothing.



Emperor Raizen said:


> And I proved that's not true. At all. And, oh no way, it's not like Sanji's opponents block either.


You proved nothing. 



Emperor Raizen said:


> So explain how Zoro's slashes are more lethal than Sanji's kicks even though the latter has greater physical strength, mein square.


Oh Jesus Christ I shouldn't even have to explain why swords are more lethal then kicks. Because he can sever arterys and possible loss of limbs and organs with a sword slice.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Jesus Christ. It's impossible to be this dense. Defeating Sanji with _3-swords_ would be the fight of his life; giving Sanji a hard time with *2-swords* isn't possible because he struggled with Ryuuma. I was honestly more impressed by Absalom than I was with Ryu.


So what Zoro with 3 swords beats Sanji with extreme difficulty and Sanji beats Zoro with 2 swords with high difficulty. But you're obviously a huge Sanji fanboy who is blinded by his fanboyism and can't see why.



Emperor Raizen said:


> There is. Just like there's a huge gap between the WT and the "middle trio". Zoro's going to struggle greatly with the likes of Zoro and Franky with a single sword.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Coruscation (Apr 8, 2011)

> Because by forcing his hands onto Zoro's blades he delivers an impact force opposing the force Zoro is coming at him with.



His hands should still be cut from that though, since there's no evidence to my knowledge of them being "metallic" enough to actually meet the swords without being cut, as say an opponent's swords would be doing (I assume that's a similar principle as what you're talking about?).


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## Ultra (Apr 8, 2011)

God Movement said:


> What the hell are you talking about now?



"Also, scientists confirm that head-on car crashes aren't leathal so long as the drivers are going at the same speed".

This is the type of rediculousness the explanation you're proposing implies. Where does all that Kinetic Energy go when they clash, in the air? Also, respond to the last part.

You also have yet to explain how Usopp's Cactus Star could cut Luffy but a direct Oni Giri can't.


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 8, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Oh Jesus Christ I shouldn't even have to explain why swords are more lethal then kicks. Because he can sever arterys and possible loss of limbs and organs with a sword slice.


Hurr savage kicks can't cause internal damage or cause organs to rupture at all durr.



Thdyingbreed said:


> So what Zoro with 3 swords beats Sanji with extreme difficulty and Sanji beats Zoro with 2 swords with high difficulty. But you're obviously a huge Sanji fanboy who is blinded by his fanboyism and can't see why.


You're blinded by your blatant Zoro wank which is why you're ignoring that he's a lot less powerful the less swords he has.



Thdyingbreed said:


> He was trying to kill Luffy but he obviously wasn't using all of his power on him.


That's a paradox. Look that word up.


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## Wade (Apr 8, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> His hands should still be cut from that though, since there's no evidence to my knowledge of them being "metallic" enough to actually meet the swords without being cut, as say an opponent's swords would be doing (I assume that's a similar principle as what you're talking about?).



He blocked Zoro's hands.

On a side note, Shuu, a marine, did intercept Zoro's sword barehanded.


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## Coruscation (Apr 8, 2011)

Seems that way. It goes to show that Luffy can handle swords just fine and Oda doesn't treat them as a "bad matchup" for him, in any case (unless, I suppose, one figures that Luffy > Zoro which became Luffy = Zoro _because_ Zoro had swords. But that's not the vibe I get from it).


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## Ultra (Apr 8, 2011)

God Movement said:


> No, work is done and it's converted into worthless different types of energy, sound, internal energy and whatever the hell else. Luffy simply has enough endurance to suggest he wouldn't be damaged at all by such a rapid acceleration.
> 
> There's nothing to reply to. I'm talking about *hardness* here. Zoro's swords are made out of steel, and I'm supposing that Luffy has metal-like limbs. On a Moh's scale of hardness, I wouldn't put Zoro's swords at a level far harder than Luffy's skin based on what kind of cutting damage he's endured. Looking at this it's not complicated at all why Zoro would be unable to cut Luffy if Luffy came running into him with a force equal or greater than what Zoro's running at him with.



Right, Luffy normally has the endurance to bear the force, it doesn't just cancel out. Which is why two forces charging at eachother create more damage than just one force. Try running into a wall with a knife faced toward your gut. Now try running into a bus doing the same thing (Assmunig the Bus stops after the knife has gone into you).

At the end of the day, Hardness comes second to force. Take an iron sledge hammer to a Diamond and I bet you can break it. And this is not just a mateer of "Steel on Metal". The force put on a sharp object allows it to deal a great amount of pressural damage in one spot, so Luffy's 'Metallic skin" doesn't allow him at all to tank a cutting attack from Zoro.


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## God Movement (Apr 8, 2011)

UltraDoots said:


> Right, Luffy normally has the endurance to bear the force, it doesn't just cancel out. Which is why two forces charging at eachother create more damage than just one force. Try running into a wall with a knife faced toward your gut. Now try running into a bus doing the same thing (Assmunig the Bus stops after the knife has gone into you).



Right. So I take it you wouldn't mind explaining why neither Zoro or Luffy were pushed back despite charging at each other with great forces on either side?



> At the end of the day, Hardness comes second to force. *Take an iron sledge hammer to a Diamond and I bet you can break it.* And this is not just a mateer of "Steel on Metal". The force put on a sharp object allows it to deal a great amount of pressural damage in one spot, so Luffy's 'Metallic skin" doesn't allow him at all to tank a cutting attack from Zoro.



Yeah, that's not what hardness is. That's *toughness*. I just told you that hardness is essentially the prinicple that a harder material will scratch a softer one. I already posted up a scan showing Luffy can resist cutting attacks from steel weapons just fine and Wade just posted up a scan of Shuu, a character who can be seen as weaker than Luffy block Zoro's sword with his bare hands. Like hell Luffy can't block Zoro's attacks.


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## The Red Gil (Apr 8, 2011)

Are people still saying that Luffy takes bladed weapon attacks worse than everyone else?


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 8, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> How was Luffy able to do it against Zoro even if his stretching gives Zoro a bigger target? Ohh yeah Luffy is special? And not only against Zoro but against motherfucking non serious Mihawk who was still leagues above Zoro and Lucchi and his big ass charp claws or Enerus trident.
> 
> Ahh yeah there is no way
> 
> How someone like Garp, who has no fucking sword and is fighting with his arms, is able to stand at the very top, if people like Rayleig or Mihawk could slice him up?





Coruscation said:


> ^Kaku's nose utilized Tekkai, I'm pretty sure.
> 
> But Sanji can very likely stop swords with his legs to some extent. Luffy met Zoro's bloodlusted Oni Giri *head on* with a Bazooka, and they clashed equally. May not make real-world sense, but that's irrelevant in the face of how Oda writes this in his fictional manga series.






Zorro attacked with the sides of his swords. you can clearly see the white (sharp) edge and the black (dull) side lying flat across Luffy's shoe. That means Luffy wasnt attacked by the edge of Zoro's sword. He most likely did this because he didnt want to cut Luffy. He was fighting serious, but not to kill. Unless he isnt fighting to kill, he wouldnt do the same to Sanji.


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## Wade (Apr 8, 2011)

What ? He was blocked before he could even attack.


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 8, 2011)

Exactly. Everyone saying Luffy tanks Zoro's strikes are prolly going off filler put in the anime, not the manga, where they clashed once visibly. Luffy was never shown getting hit by zoro's attacks. A few panels later they are both bloody around the face and the fight is over.


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## Coruscation (Apr 9, 2011)

> Zorro attacked with the sides of his swords.



No way that he did. They were fighting to kill at that point, Zoro said it outright. Hitting with the sides makes no sense at all since it wouldn't even affect Luffy. Luffy must have managed to somehow twist one of the swords somewhat to block it with his shoe, or something.

Also, Luffy was clearly hit in their fight. You can see a slicing wound on one side of his face a couple of panels after the Oni Giri / Bazooka clash.


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## Kishido (Apr 9, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> No way that he did. They were fighting to kill at that point, Zoro said it outright. Hitting with the sides makes no sense at all since it wouldn't even affect Luffy. Luffy must have managed to somehow twist one of the swords somewhat to block it with his shoe, or something.
> 
> Also, Luffy was clearly hit in their fight. You can see a slicing wound on one side of his face a couple of panels after the Oni Giri / Bazooka clash.



No you are wrong. You can't fight a swordsman without swords and even win against him, when you are just equal or above him a bit.

That Luffy managed to avoid attacks of half assed Mihawk, which was still >>>> Zoro to that time, is no point. That people like Garp has no swords and still are top tier doesn't mean anything cuz against a equal swordsuser they stand no chance cuz you can't avoid it.

That Luffy for example have avoided the sword of Arlong, Kuro's claws, Lucchi's claws, Croc's hook and so on means shit as well. Cuz a sword is longer. And Sanji has no chance to avoid a sword after all even if he can react to bullets or the swan shoes of Mr 2 which pierced a hole to the building.

What do we have learned. Swords = Automatic win against non swordsmen or Special DF users if you near of the level to them.


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## SageMaster (Apr 9, 2011)

Ever Sanji fanboy knows Zoro is stronger.

Zoro fanboys are the ones who should know they are very close.

I'd say Sanji wins scenario 1 because Zoro loses many attacks without a sword. 
Zoro wins scenario 2 in a close battle.


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## Kishido (Apr 9, 2011)

SageMaster said:


> Ever Sanji fanboy knows Zoro is stronger.
> 
> Zoro fanboys are the ones who should know they are very close.
> 
> ...



True words^^ Completely agree


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## ajinko (Apr 9, 2011)

the number of swords doesnt make zoro weaker, it just changes his technique. it's not a handicap. zoro has 4 styles of fighting.
. one sword style 
.two sword style
. three sword style
. nine sword style- ashura.

he also uses no sword style , but i'm not gonna get into that.


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## Great Potato (Apr 9, 2011)

ajinko said:


> the number of swords doesnt make zoro weaker, it just changes his technique. it's not a handicap. zoro has 4 styles of fighting.
> . one sword style
> .two sword style
> . three sword style
> ...



Ashura>>three sword style>>two sword style>>one sword style>>No sword style


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## Kishido (Apr 9, 2011)

ajinko said:


> the number of swords doesnt make zoro weaker, it just changes his technique. it's not a handicap. zoro has 4 styles of fighting.
> . one sword style
> .two sword style
> . three sword style
> ...



Lol yeah... 

That's why he shouted to Nami he needs his other 2 swords against the cat brothers from Kuro.

That's why he shouted to Yosaku and Johnny to throw to him 2 swords to beat Hatchan.

That's why his most powerful attacks are 3 sword moves like proven with the pound canons or his Sanzen Sekai. Ashura is "activated" in his 3 swords style as well

and he even said to Ryuuma, that he is dissapointed he can't show the 3-swords-style to him.

Which manga are you reading?

What's next... Non sword Zoro will be able to beat Sanji?


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## ajinko (Apr 9, 2011)

zoro has powerful moves in all three styles.

one sword style - shishi sonson, yahazugiri etc.
two sword style - rashoumon
three sword style - well a lot of attack. 

zoro said it himself it's not about being mroe powerful with more swords, it's about techniques. with different number of swords it just becomes a different technique. u guys are acting like taking one sword away will make zoro a handicap or something.


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## Stilzkin (Apr 9, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> Lol yeah...
> 
> 
> That's why his most powerful attacks are 3 sword moves like proven with the pound canons or his Sanzen Sekai. Ashura is "activated" in his 3 swords style as well



He needs all three swords to have access to all his techniques but it doesn't mean that one sword style is weaker than three sword style moves.

He beat Mr.1 with a one style move, lion song, he also did the same move on Kuma, at this time Zoro was well aware of what a threat Kuma was. Unless you think Zoro wasn't taking Mr.1 or Kuma seriously lion song is obviously a move Zoro thinks is one of his best and most trusted techniques.

Asura is the exception, it obviously hits harder than all his other moves.

So it weakens him because it takes away his access to his three sword style moves, limiting what he can do, and it takes away his strongest hitters, asura.


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## NinnjaHero (Apr 9, 2011)

ajinko said:


> zoro has powerful moves in all three styles.
> 
> one sword style - shishi sonson, yahazugiri etc.
> two sword style - rashoumon
> ...



Yeah man u have a point there, now when Zoro beats Mihawk he will take his black sword, makes perfect SENSE !!!!


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## NinnjaHero (Apr 9, 2011)

Momonga charged with full speed from above and  we can clearly see Luffy gets sliced in half.

Oh wait..


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## Kishido (Apr 10, 2011)

Stilzkin said:


> He needs all three swords to have access to all his techniques but it doesn't mean that one sword style is weaker than three sword style moves.
> 
> He beat Mr.1 with a one style move, lion song, he also did the same move on Kuma, at this time Zoro was well aware of what a threat Kuma was. Unless you think Zoro wasn't taking Mr.1 or Kuma seriously lion song is obviously a move Zoro thinks is one of his best and most trusted techniques.
> 
> ...



It is weaker and the best prove for it is his pund canont aht it is at his max with all 3 swords.

And strange that everytime he gots serious he is putting all 3 swords out or not? 

Saying that he is as strong with 1 sword or 2 swords is bullshit. His pound canons would be weaker and most of of his moves he couldn't use. And avoiding 1 sword less is even more easy

@NinnjaHero

Forget it. People just thing that there is no room of avoiding sword attacks even if Luffy proved it already.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

If Zoro is 100 Sanji is 99.8
Zoro isnt beating him with 2 swords...that exists in Zoro's fanboys imagination....
Actually in a all out battle with 3 swords Zoro would end up with his face burnt like WB.


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## Kishido (Apr 10, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> If Zoro is 100 Sanji is 99.8
> Zoro isnt beating him with 2 swords...that exists in Zoro's fanboys imagination....
> Actually in a all out battle with 3 swords Zoro would end up with his face burnt like WB.



Nice that we agree once with each other Gaara.


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## SageMaster (Apr 10, 2011)

To put it simply, I don't see Zoro beating Sanji's Diable Jambe unless he uses Asura. Without 3 swords, Zoro can't use it and thus loses.


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## ajinko (Apr 10, 2011)

^ u guys are overhyping sanji..........


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

lol @ the sanji wank

zoro with his two highest grade swords (Wadō Ichimonji and Shuusui) would most likely beat sanji. dont forget sanji has 0 long range moves lol.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Oda compared Zoro and Sanji to Dorry and Broggy...
Lol the Zoro wankers in denial who keep denying Lucci = 4000 Kaku- 2200 - Jyabura -2180.
Oda makes Zoro and Sanji seem equal, and you keep trying to tell yourself that they arent.
It doesnt matter if Sanji doesnt have long range moves, he is faster than Zoro and if he touches Zoro he will burn his insides. IMO


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## SageMaster (Apr 10, 2011)

You say we're wanking Sanji, yet don't give any reason as to why Zoro can't beat him with two swords.

I just don't see him beating Diable Jambe unless he uses Ashura, which he doesn't have with two swords.

If you give me a logical reason, I'll gladly accept it.


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> Oda compared Zoro and Sanji to Dorry and Broggy...


No he didnt. Manga page?



> It doesnt matter if Sanji doesnt have long range moves, he is faster than Zoro and if he touches Zoro he will burn his insides. IMO


He's not faster then zoro. From what i have seen Base Luffy, Zoro and Sanji all have very equalish speed. Sanji does not have a speed advantage over zoro. And zoro doesnt need to touch DJ he can block with swords.



SageMaster said:


> You say we're wanking Sanji, yet don't give any reason as to why Zoro can't beat him with two swords.
> 
> I just don't see him beating Diable Jambe unless he uses Ashura, which he doesn't have with two swords.
> 
> If you give me a logical reason, I'll gladly accept it.



Well Zoro with two swords still has acess to like 80-90% of his skill. The sword in his mouth is mostly used for blocking. Zoro also has better reflexes, meaning if they get in close range combat zoro will likely land more hits in. Sanji has no counter for Zoro's long range moves, we clearly saw how helpless he was against Jyabura's long ranged techniques.

A well placed sword slash is just as lethal as a well placed DJ kick. This might come down to Endurance/domage soak which is why i would place my money on zoro.


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## Kishido (Apr 10, 2011)

LOL people saying we are wanking Sanji... Everyone of us agrees that against Zoro in a serious fight and with ALL swords and moves Sanji would lose.

You are the one wanking over Zoro. Saying Zoro wouldn't lose even with 1 sword because it is just a different style even if the manga proved that his most powerful attacks and everytime he gots serious is all with 3 swords... Guy above me even says that with 2 swords Zoro would only have access to 90 % of his powers... Oda is potraying them as NEAR equal but you think that a half-ass Zoro which isn't at 100 % will rofl stomp Sanji and win at the end?

And yeah Sanji has no long range attack? And so what? Fuck it. Even a big fat Oars is able to dodge the long range attacks of Zoro.

And than this legendary... Zoro has a sword and one attack and Sanji is done... but hey... This "handicap" has each person without a sword and Luffy proved 3 times already to dodge swords and even more to dodge sharp objects... even without gear 2.

And yeah Sanji was so beaten by a Jabura's Rankyaku... OMG after that he get serious and WTF owned him. But how? Jabura had long ranged attacks?

Seriously... This shit is pissing me of. Yeah Sanji is behind Zoro and Luffy but that doesn't mean that hald-assed versions of them are able to beat him cuz the gap is that big.

And yeah Oda does compared him in a hint to the two giants



And not only that... Most of their opponents where potrayed as rival as well as Kaku and Jabura and Mr 1 and Mr 2, which dislike each other and are close in powers... And do you know what. Sanji owned all of his oponents faster then Zoro did even with his allmighty swords where you only need one attack and his long range moves.

But yeah Sanji at full power would lose against Zoro at 80 - 90 % power because of swords^^

Seriously read the manga or shut up. Yeah I'm a fanboy of Sanji and he is my fav. But Zoro is close second in my list and I never would dare to say that he is weaker than Sanji... because even I say ZORO is SLIGHTLY above Sanji. But you are hyping him way to another league with each thread even if nothing in the manga points to it.

Even aftert the TS, where both showing the same exact feats by owning the Kraken or the PX... people say... Zoro is more awesome becaus ehe hasn't used Ashura yet but Sanji DJ. On other hand Luffy used both haki, gear 2 and gear 3 but no one complaining about that... Do you know why? Because DJ and Gears can't be compared to a one hit move like Ashura. BVut yeah Zoro is in whole other league than Sanji and with his swords there is no way someone can beat it without swords

Thank You


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> LOL people saying we are wanking Sanji... Everyone of us agrees that against Zoro in a serious fight and with ALL swords and moves Sanji would lose.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion man, i think Zoro with his highest grade swords still has a decent chance at beating sanji and vice versa.



> You are the one wanking over Zoro. Saying Zoro wouldn't lose even with 1 sword because it is just a different style even if the manga proved that his most powerful attacks and everytime he gots serious is all with 3 swords...


I dont know if this is directed at me? I never said Zoro would beat Sanji with one sword.



> Guy above me even says that with 2 swords Zoro would only have access to 90 % of his powers... Oda is potraying them as NEAR equal but you think that a half-ass Zoro which isn't at 100 % will rofl stomp Sanji and win at the end?



I said 80-90% of his techniques not power, his speed/strength wont be affected. And i never said he'd rofl stomp him, dunno where your getting this BS from. I think it will be a very close fight but definetly not a stomp.



> And yeah Sanji has no long range attack? And so what? Fuck it. Even a big fat Oars is able to dodge the long range attacks of Zoro.



So your saying zoro is slow, and Sanji will dance around all those attacks and not take a single hit, right?



> And than this legendary... Zoro has a sword and one attack and Sanji is done... but hey... This "handicap" has each person without a sword and Luffy proved 3 times already to dodge swords and even more to dodge sharp objects... even without gear 2.



And then this legendary...Sanji will one hit zoro with DJ. And then he's done.

Im sure Sanji can dodge most of zoro's slash's, i didnt say he couldnt, so i dont know why your bringing that up.



> And yeah Sanji was so beaten by a Jabura's Rankyaku... OMG after that he get serious and WTF owned him. But how? Jabura had long ranged attacks?



Yes Jyabura started to overwhelm him when he started using Rankyaku, and then Sanji brought his power up and beat him, i agree with you on that. But, Sanji hasnt shown the ability to counter Rankyaku like Luffy and Zoro have, all he can do is dodge against zoro's pound cannon, he's bound to get hit sometime.
If it toke two DJ kicks to beat Jyabura it will take atleast 4-5 DJ kick to beat Zoro.



> Seriously... This shit is pissing me of. Yeah Sanji is behind Zoro and Luffy but that doesn't mean that hald-assed versions of them are able to beat him cuz the gap is that big.



I dont consider the gap between Zoro with two swords and three swords big at all.  



> And yeah Oda does compared him in a hint to the two giants
> 
> ]


ok you have a point there.



> And not only that... Most of their opponents where potrayed as rival as well as Kaku and Jabura and Mr 1 and Mr 2, which dislike each other and are close in powers... And do you know what. Sanji owned all of his oponents faster then Zoro did even with his allmighty swords where you only need one attack and his long range moves.



Kaku was fighting on par with zoro, even without his swords, when kaku brought his swords out he started to overwhelm zoro, thats the vibe i got. So kaku got stronger when he used swords.



> Seriously read the manga or shut up. Yeah I'm a fanboy of Sanji and he is my fav. But Zoro is close second in my list and I never would dare to say that he is weaker than Sanji... because even I say ZORO is SLIGHTLY above Sanji. But you are hyping him way to another league with each thread even if nothing in the manga points to it.



Ok we're on the same page. I just think Zoro with his two highest grade swords wont be beat low-mid difficulty by Sanji like some of those sanji wankers have been saying in this thread. Me thinks it can go either way.



> Even aftert the TS, where both showing the same exact feats by owning the Kraken or the PX... people say... Zoro is more awesome becaus ehe hasn't used Ashura yet but Sanji DJ. On other hand Luffy used both haki, gear 2 and gear 3 but no one complaining about that... Do you know why? Because DJ and Gears can't be compared to a one hit move like Ashura. BVut yeah Zoro is in whole other league than Sanji and with his swords there is no way someone can beat it without swords



We dont have much feats right now. Ya we know the M3 can one shot pacifista. And im pretty sure Luffy told Zoro not to kill the krakken which is why he only sliced off a tenticle. Lets just wait for more showings, Zoro will have the better ones  



> Thank You


thank you...and man that was super long


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## Kishido (Apr 10, 2011)

Well to make it short... With 2 swords Sanji still would have a damn of a fight against Zoro but he has better chances to win. Against 3 swords Zoro he will lose with hufg difficult for Zoro.

And I never said Zoro is super slow. But not having ranged attacks doesn't mean there is no room ov avoiding it or to counter it.

The only thing I dislike about this discussion, which is the same with Luffy, that Zoro automatic has better chances because he has a swords and there is no way of blocking it or dodging it, even it is already proved in this manga by Luffy himself


To Kaku. Yeah but remember Zoro used his bandana, to be super serious, much later on. Still the point is there that both kaku and Jabura got were potrayed as rivals and being close in power. Kakau was stronger but Sanjim who was beaten up by Khalifa before, owned Jabura faster... But it was done to dead already


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> Well to make it short... With 2 swords Sanji still would have a damn of a fight against Zoro but he has better chances to win. Against 3 swords Zoro he will lose with hufg difficult for Zoro.


ya that sounds reasonable.



> And I never said Zoro is super slow. But not having ranged attacks doesn't mean there is no room ov avoiding it or to counter it.


Thats true



> The only thing I dislike about this discussion, which is the same with Luffy, that Zoro automatic has better chances because he has a swords and there is no way of blocking it or dodging it, even it is already proved in this manga by Luffy himself



Well Luffy is immune to blunt damage but he isnt to slashing attacks, this is why sometimes people might think he's weak to swords. His fight against Lucci proved he can deal with slashing attacks.



> To Kaku. Yeah but remember Zoro used his bandana, to be super serious, much later on. Still the point is there that both kaku and Jabura got were potrayed as rivals and being close in power. Kakau was stronger but Sanjim who was beaten up by Khalifa before, owned Jabura faster... But it was done to dead already



My point still stands, a swordless Kaku was fighting on par with Zoro, when kaku decided to bring out the swords zoro started getting overwhelmed.
And im pretty sure they wernt rivals cuz it seemed Kaku just recently surpassed jyabura when kamadori was measuring cp9s douriki.


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## Kishido (Apr 10, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> ya that sounds reasonable.
> 
> 
> Thats true
> ...



By only 20 Douriki and Sanji owned Jabura faster. But that isn't the topic.

Seems like we agree with the rest. I'm fine with that


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

I need to ask where you're getting the claim that Sanji owned Jyabura "faster" from. Before he came up DJ, he definitely wasn't going to win that fight, while it was sort of ambiguous whether Zoro could have beaten Kaku. Once he used it there's no doubt he layed a pretty major smackdown on the wolfman, but by no means was it faster than Kaku went down to Ashura.

In panel time, I guess Sanji vs. Jyabura was a little shorter, but that might have more to do with how Jyabura was putting more pressure on Sanji than Kaku was on Zoro, thus prompting the power-up earlier.


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## Kishido (Apr 10, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> I need to ask where you're getting the claim that Sanji owned Jyabura "faster" from. Before he came up DJ, he definitely wasn't going to win that fight, while it was sort of ambiguous whether Zoro could have beaten Kaku. Once he used it there's no doubt he layed a pretty major smackdown on the wolfman, but by no means was it faster than Kaku went down to Ashura.
> 
> In panel time, I guess Sanji vs. Jyabura was a little shorter, but that might have more to do with how Jyabura was putting more pressure on Sanji than Kaku was on Zoro, thus prompting the power-up earlier.



Sanji started the fight later, while damaged by Khalifa, and won it earlier. Yeah Jabura went down faster.

But who cares that has nothing to with this here. 

The only thing is that both Jabura and Kaku were close to each other and even if Kaku had the edge, like Zoro has over Sanji, the gap is small.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

That doesn't mean he "owned" him faster though. That's a bit of you twisting what happened. He simply brought out his power-up earlier, which was actually because he was doing worse than Zoro against his opponent. Jyabura was gaining a clearer edge on Sanji than Kaku ever managed over Zoro.

It does matter quite a bit since saying that Sanji owned Jyabura faster carries the implication that he was more superior to Jyabura than Zoro was to Kaku (and I'm sure you realize that). Which wasn't necessarily true.

I would say Zoro >=< Kaku > Jyabura > base Sanji. Which seems about right given the gap between Sanji & Zoro. Not _big_, but it isn't trivial either.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

We got it you are a Zoro fanboy. But you said the right word the gap between Zoro and Sanji is *trivial*. Thats *exactly* the case.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

No, that's what (some) Sanji fanboys think. Trivial is exactly what the gap is not. Most definitely not, anyway, I won't claim to be an OP sage but I seriously doubt Oda wants you to think that. I doubt Kishido would agree with you, even.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

4000
2200 - 2180
Seems like Oda makes it seem trivial to me.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

Except, of course, for those other factors involved that you conveniently "forgot" to mention. Like how Sanji was unquestionably going to lose to Jyabura without DJ whereas it wasn't very clear if Zoro could have won his fight.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

And you keep forgeting the fact which was already mentioned by Kishido, Sanji begun his fight after than Zoro and finished before he did.


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## felixng2008 (Apr 10, 2011)

Sanji wins scenario 1 with high difficulty.
Zoro wins scenario 2 with high difficulty.

The gap between Sanji and Zoro is fairly negligible but still apparent.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

> And you keep forgeting the fact which was already mentioned by Kishido, Sanji begun his fight after than Zoro and finished before he did.



Yeah, except that I just elaborated on exactly that


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## Wade (Apr 10, 2011)

Furthermore, Sanji had to use DJ two times if I remember correctly, with being forced to let Jyabura hit him to get the second opening. While Zoro took down Kaku with one Ashura attack. Combined to the fact that Kaku is slightly stronger than Jyabura, the gap between Zoro and Sanji indeed is not trivial.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

Well, I wouldn't put all too much stock in amount of hits landed to win. That can vary enough to not really be indicative in any way. Ashura's mystery factor only exacerbates that, talking about the CP9 fights specifically, since we still don't know what in the hell it actually does.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

You elaborated with fanboism and not with facts. Your faster power up excuse to show that Zoro >>>>>>>>>>>> Sanji is ridiculous...


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

If you call observing what happened in the panels fanboyism, sure. Unfortunately, that's how we generally do it here in the Battledome.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Wade said:


> Furthermore, Sanji had to use DJ two times if I remember correctly, with being forced to let Jyabura hit him to get the second opening. While Zoro took down Kaku with one Ashura attack. Combined to the fact that Kaku is slightly stronger than Jyabura, the gap between Zoro and Sanji indeed is not trivial.



He had to use it twice because the combat fighters like Whitebeard need more than one hit to take down their opponets...unlike swordsmen. Its a matter of fighting style.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> If you call observing what happened in the panels fanboyism, sure. Unfortunately, that's how we generally do it here in the Battledome.


Observing the panels, Sanji was keeping up with Jyabura just fine even without DJ.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

I agree, he was. He just couldn't damage him, which, y'know, happens to be a pretty important part of a fight. The result was that Jyabura didn't get hurt and instead started to turn the tables on Sanji, hence........


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Which pretty much is the case in the Zoro vs Kaku fight..


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

Except:

- Zoro did manage to damage Kaku,
- Kaku never gained such a clear upper hand on Zoro, it remained more or less ambiguous who would have won,
- (swordsmen fights usually don't have the combatants getting gradually damaged as much as fights between physical brawlers do)


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> Except:
> 
> - Zoro did manage to damage Kaku,
> - Kaku never gained such a clear upper hand on Zoro, it remained more or less ambiguous who would have won,
> - (swordsmen fights usually don't have the combatants getting gradually damaged as much as fights between physical brawlers do)



-Sanji also managed to damage Jyabura.
-Jyabura also never gained *a clear upper hand* uppon Sanji.

I dont know where are you getting those from ?

The thing which is proven is that both Sanji and Zoro did equally well in their fights...and none of those fights proves that their gap isnt trivial...
You can keep trying to convince yourself that it isnt ..but the facts speak otherwise..


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

Not really, it was clear enough that Jyabura wasn't getting hurt in any notable way. Which is significant because it was a physical brawler's battle, contrary to a fight between swordsmen. And yes, he did gain a clear upper hand. You'd have to be blind or stupid or both to think that this sequence:








was not one where Jyabura was clearly turning the tables on Sanji. It's self-evident where that fight would've headed if Sanji hadn't had DJ.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

None of those pages proves that Jyabura was having the upper hand and just because he wasnt swimming in blood that doesnt mean he wasnt hurt by Sanji's attacks.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

No, they do show exactly that. And it isn't a coincidence that this happened as it started to become clearer and clearer that Sanji's kicks just weren't doing any real damage. If you're seriously telling me you can't follow the progression of the fight, you're just closing your eyes to it.

Zoro vs. Kaku was a lot of back-and-forth, the two of them more or less taking turns one-upping one another (though I think Zoro came out on top more often than not). Sanji vs. Jyabura was more of Sanji getting in some decent hits and seemingly doing well, but as it went on it turned out his hits weren't actually damaging and instead Jyabura began to gain the upper hand. Hence prompting Sanji to come up with Diable Jambe. That wasn't just an issue of time, it was an issue of his attacks simply not doing any real damage and he was never going to beat Jyabura the way it was going up until that point.

He certainly felt them, there was a few times I think when Sanji got in off-guard hits, but in general? Sanji was just not doing any real damage.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

...and Zoro wasnt doing real damage neither 
I dont want to start all over again ..Oda made it obvious with their fights and with the CP9's dourki that Zoro and Sanji are almost equal.


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 10, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I dont want to start all over again ..Oda made it obvious with their fights and with the CP9's dourki that Zoro and Sanji are almost equal.


Yeah and that was way back in El a lot has changed since then but hell if you want argue about it Pre-ts.

Zoro got a new sword as a power up and a huge damage soak in Tb I don't exactly recall Sanji getting any power ups really. If Zoro is 100 sanj is 96-97 the gap isn't as small as your making it out to be.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

Gradual damage is a lot less prominent in swordfights than in fights between physical brawlers. Note that Zoro and Kaku were blocking almost everything, while Sanji and Jyabura (or Sanji and Bon in Alabasta, if you prefer) were often trading blows. Only, Sanji's didn't hurt Jyabura. That's a pretty huge disadvantage and one you can't just gloss over as if it doesn't really matter. But whatever, you seem to have made up your mind.

There's also TB to consider, where I hardly got the impression that we were supposed to think of Zoro as inferior to Sanji using DJ. And if you want to get technical, Zoro gained a power boost with his new sword.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Yeah and that was way back in El a lot has changed since then but hell if you want argue about it Pre-ts.
> 
> Zoro got a new sword as a power up and a huge damage soak in Tb I don't exactly recall Sanji getting any power ups really. If Zoro is 100 sanj is 96-97 the gap isn't as small as your making it out to be.


I dont consider the new sword a powerup and neither the huge damage soak which was more of a durability feat proof.
Raping Absalom, fighting Pacifistas, landing hits on Oars...were still good indicators of strength from Sanji's side.


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## Z (Apr 10, 2011)

Wait, when did Zoro hurt Kaku before Asura?


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## Thdyingbreed (Apr 10, 2011)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> I dont consider the new sword a powerup and neither the huge damage soak which was more of a durability feat - proof.
> Raping Absalom, fighting Pacifistas, landing hits on Oars...were still good indicators of strength.


It was a power up It was even stated by Zoro himself there's a lot more power in his hits. Zoro can last longer then any of the other Sh's in a long fight because of his endurance.

Zoro did all of those as well and Ryuuma>Absalom


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Apr 10, 2011)

I have stated my points on Absalom > Ryuma already


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

> Wait, when did Zoro hurt Kaku before Asura?


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## Great Potato (Apr 10, 2011)

To be fair Kaku wasn't wearing his tekkai, Jyabura on the other hand was.


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## Coruscation (Apr 10, 2011)

Well he wasn't wearing Tekkai because he used Kami-E, and only Jyabura can move and utilize it at the same time. Don't really see how it matters. Zoro got in a nice clean blow which Kaku did his best to avoid.


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

Great Potato said:


> To be fair Kaku wasn't wearing his tekkai, Jyabura on the other hand was.



Im pretty sure he'd cut through it regardless, tekkai was stated to be as hard iron, zoro can cut through steel.


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## Stilzkin (Apr 10, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> Im pretty sure he'd cut through it regardless, tekkai was stated to be as hard iron, zoro can cut through steel.



Tekkai is much harder than iron.


If you look at Zoro's fight Kaku was starting to push Zoro down and Zoro started to use asura to fight back. 


Also Kaku's special technique is his amane-dachi, Jyabura's special technique is his full time tekkai. Both Sanji and Zoro needed to use their power ups to be able to win against the CP9 member's special techniques.


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## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

Im pretty sure Kaku said he couldnt afford to let Zoro cut through him, i forgot what manga page it was. But onepiece wiki does say that Shishi sonson can cut through tekai 

 Zoro pulled out Ashura and one shotted kaku. Zoro didnt fight with ashura turned on for more than 15 seconds.


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## Wade (Apr 10, 2011)

There's an instance where Zoro says it's time to cut through that Tekkai, uses Shishi Sonson to do so, then Kaku uses another move as a counter and says it's only up to him to choose whether he'll protect himself with Tekkai or not. Construe that as you wish but to me it's a clear indication that Kaku figured his Tekkai would break to Shishi sonson.


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## Stilzkin (Apr 10, 2011)

Shishi sonson one shotted Mr.1 by slicing right through his steel body, its not dumb for Kaku to have avoided seeing what it would do against his tekkai.

Still tekkai is much harder than iron seeing as Krieg's armor was wootz steel and Luffy smashed through it in 1-3 hits (I'd say one hit as it doesn't show damage before the final hit).


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## ajinko (Apr 10, 2011)

zoro broke kakus tekkai using ichi and ni gorilla powerup. he also used "mantra" - haki to read kakus movements as he did against t-bone


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 10, 2011)

I like how Zoro dickriders are still trying to claim that _Sanji_ beats Zoro with high difficulty in Scenario 1 when he struggled with sub-par fighters like *Ryuuma*; the fact of the matter is that Zoro just barely wins Scenario 2 even with Asura.


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 10, 2011)

What makes Ryuuma subpar? People comparing him to Absalom and saying he is weaker than him. I'm not going to get into that debate but I will say this. The only reason Absalom was a remote match for Sanji at all is because A) Sanji was protecting Nami and B) Absalom could go invisible. Any other time it was a Sanji curbstomp. Zoro on the other hand had to actually fight hard to win against Ryuuma. Now I wont go into a Zoro or Sanji dickwanking tirade. I just would like to know how Sanji will block Zoro's attacks, as I have previously pointed out even when Zoro fought Luffy, he struck with the sides of his sword. If he was fighting seriously, how could Sanji block it? Also, when happens when Zoro blocks one of Sanji's kicks with his sword?


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 10, 2011)

Blitzomaru said:


> What makes Ryuuma subpar? People comparing him to Absalom and saying he is weaker than him. I'm not going to get into that debate but I will say this. The only reason Absalom was a remote match for Sanji at all is because A) Sanji was protecting Nami and B) Absalom could go invisible. Any other time it was a Sanji curbstomp. Zoro on the other hand had to actually fight hard to win against Ryuuma.


Solid argument but Sanji had an SSJ-esque power-up; Nami being in danger heated him up like DJ.



Blitzomaru said:


> Now I wont go into a Zoro or Sanji dickwanking tirade. I just would like to know how Sanji will block Zoro's attacks, as I have previously pointed out even when Zoro fought Luffy, he struck with the sides of his sword. If he was fighting seriously, how could Sanji block it? Also, when happens when Zoro blocks one of Sanji's kicks with his sword?


Simple. The same way that Garp manages to block swords from top swordsmen like Silvers Rayleigh, Mihawk, Shanks, and Vista. Kishido's been over that already.


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 11, 2011)

Yeah, but that's specualtion. We haven't seen him do that. In fact, we've seen Axe-hand Morgan cut Garp. Granted he was sleeping at the moment, but I'm sure he's kicked more ass asleep than anyone else. You really can't use the argument that people who aren't swordsmen can beat swordsman to say that Sanji could block Zoro. I could say how did Rayleigh block Kizaru's light foot attack with a sword or how did Shanks block Akainu's magma attack. The answer is obviously Haki, and since we haven't seen garp and the like block any sword attacks, I can simply say Haki for them as well and have no proof. Its obvious Garp knows Haki, as he was able to not only hurt Luffy but punch the fire outta Marco. So honestly how can you use that as an excuse?


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## Kishido (Apr 11, 2011)

Well to be honest... Even if Zoro landed a cut. At the end of the fight he was pushed to he corner by Kaku as well and that's why he used Ashura.

Same like Sanji. But I had never the feeling that both of them were owned that much


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## Emperor Raizen (Apr 11, 2011)

Silvers deflected Kizaru's kick with his own kick, actually.

And Haki being used as an excuse doesn't cut it because the top-tier swordsmen also have Haki; Garp still managed to clash with people like Mihawk and Shanks.

The premise that somebody as strong as Sanji can't fight with Zoro at all is pretty retarded.


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## NinnjaHero (Apr 12, 2011)

Guys dont u find it weard that Luffy and Zoro were rivals at first but later Zoro and Sanji are rivals.

Jyabura and Lucci were rivals at first later we see Jyabura vs Kaku.

So many things  that show Sanji and Zoro being equal(although Zoro is little bit stronger)

And i see it like this

Luffy vs Kid =captains
KIller vs Zoro=first mate

Luffy vs Law=captains
Bepo vs Sanji(first mate vs second strongest behind first mate XD)

Dorry and Broggy 

Hunting

Arlong park showed what Sanji is capable of, getting handicapped like that and beating the shit out of Kuroobi.

If u say that Zoro beats Sanji with two swords because of different fighting styles than we all agree that he beats Luffy with three swords.

And i still dont believe that u guys cant read properly.

I can find atleast 10 pages when we see others saying that Sanji is really fast(its just part of his agility/movements kinda like Beepo).


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm notsaying they arent equals. I'm just saying tha aside from dodging every sword strike, there's no way for sanji to block 2 swords at the same time. And Zoro doesn't have that handicap. He can blok Sanji's kicks with a sword, which can then damage sanji greatly.


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## Kishido (Apr 12, 2011)

Blitzomaru said:


> I'm notsaying they arent equals. I'm just saying tha aside from dodging every sword strike, there's no way for sanji to block 2 swords at the same time. And Zoro doesn't have that handicap. He can blok Sanji's kicks with a sword, which can then damage sanji greatly.



Luffy dodged/blocked all 3 swords of Zoro... 10 claws of Kuro, A heated up trident of Enel, Arlong sword, Luchi's claws and so on.

Garp has no fucking weapon as well and is considered as the hero who was able to fight Roger plenty of times near death... Would he lose against Zoro if both would be near equal just because he can't block the swords?

That makes sense. This isn't Bleach guys

And even more with the introduction of haki. Shanks blocked the fist of Akainu with haki. But did the sword cut through Akainu's hand? No

If you really think that there is no way of fighting a swordsmen without swords or special DF's than dunno which manga you are reading


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## Blitzomaru (Apr 12, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> Luffy dodged/blocked all 3 swords of Zoro... 10 claws of Kuro, A heated up trident of Enel, Arlong sword, Luchi's claws and so on.
> 
> Garp has no fucking weapon as well and is considered as the hero who was able to fight Roger plenty of times near death... Would he lose against Zoro if both would be near equal just because he can't block the swords?
> 
> ...




A few things, cause now Im a bit perturbed. 1, Luffy DID NOT FUCKING BLOCK ZORO's BLADED EDGE OF HIS SWORD!!! I already posted the manga scans. It clearly shows that Zorro attacked with the sides of his swords, 1 of which Luffy stopped with his shoe and the other he stopped Zoro's arm. But since you didnt see it here it is again: 


Now in a battledome fight why would Zoro do that? He would do what he usually does and a attack with his blades pointed forward like this: 
Now he didn't connect because it's freakin Mihawk, who stopped his 3 swords with one knife. 
2. Kuro vs luffy.Luffy proved to just be too fast for Kruo. Even when he used his pseudo-soru that made him blindly attack people, Luffy was able to catch him. If you are faster and stronger than someone, it doesn't matter if they have a bladed weapon. Also, for being so feared, Kuro didn't kill any of his crewmen even though he slashed up a good deal of them. even the ones that looked like they had serious injuries are alive.
3. Luffy vs Arlong,Enel and Lucci. Alrong isn't a swordsman. Im nto saying he doesn't know how to use a swod but he's not a pure swordsman like zoro. Sanji can use knives teh size of swords when his opponents use food, does that make him a swordsman? I dont think so. Enel actually impaled Luffy with his trident, luffy just has an insane pain tolerance. If that happened to eitehr zoro or Sanji, they would have been out cold.

And about Garp. Haki. Color of ARMAMENTS. Rayleigh even says to picture it as armor around your body. And that you should be able to attack with that armor. Also, haki can be imbued in objects, like swords. The Kuja pirates imbue Haki into the tips of their arrows. It makes sense that Shanks imbued Haki into his sword to block Akainu's Magma fist. otherwise the sword and Shanks both should have melted on the spot. 
And lastly you are comparing Garp vs Zoro to Sanji vs Zoro. That really makes no sense. You are comparing a Swordsman who is not even close to the calibre of the worlds strongest swordsman to a man who clashed witht eh king of pirates and see nothign wrong with that.  But lets say that Garp was completely off guard and Zoro had a chance to attack him like this: 
This would prolly be the outcome: 
 You honestly can't put Zoro up against one of the top 10 (top 5 IMHO) people in the manga and relate that to Sanji. 

In conclusion, I'm saying not saying that there are ways to fight swordsmen. Of course there are. Especially if you are just that much stronger that the swordsmen. But the reasons you said actually hurt your argument. I'm not saying that Zoro is leagues above Sanji. I'm not saying that He's even slightly above Sanji. What I am saying is that the dodge feats you have given are either wrong, flawed, or inconsistent. And while Zoro can block every single one of Sanji's attack's with a sword (And I don't mean that EVERY attack will be dodged, just the ones he can, and vice versa for Sanji), Sanji has nothing with which to block Zoro's attacks. You have to look at that and realize that that puts Sanji at a major disadvantage. Added to the fact that he absolutely does not use his hands in combat, so he wouldn't even be able to block Zoro's attacks in the same way Luffy did. And doubly added to the fact that every time Zoro blocks an attack of Sanji's with his sword, Sanji risks cutting himself.


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## Coruscation (Apr 12, 2011)

> Zorro attacked with the sides of his swords



More likely, Luffy intentionally twisted his foot to connect with the side to avoid getting hit. It's not really possible to tell for sure but that's most likely what happened, because it takes basically everything away from that scene if Zoro actually attacked with the sides. He _just_ told Luffy not to complain if he dies and to regret it in hell and they both attacked each-other without holding back. IYO did Luffy just take it for granted that Zoro was going to use the sides of his swords, or what? That makes no sense at all.

You can even see them state that it's a good opportunity to find out what's better between swordsmanship and martial arts, and what do you know, they're completely evenly matched. If what you take from this is that Oda considers people with swords to have an automatic advantage over melee combatants, I'd say you really missed the point.


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## Kishido (Apr 13, 2011)

Blitzomaru said:


> :
> 
> And lastly you are comparing Garp vs Zoro to Sanji vs Zoro. That really makes no sense. You are comparing a Swordsman who is not even close to the calibre of the worlds strongest swordsman to a man who clashed witht eh king of pirates and see nothign wrong with that.  But lets say that Garp was completely off guard and Zoro had a chance to attack him like this:
> You honestly can't put Zoro up against one of the top 10 (top 5 IMHO) people in the manga and relate that to Sanji.



Read my fucking Post please next time...

Garp has no fucking weapon as well and is considered as the hero who was able to fight Roger plenty of times near death... *Would he lose against Zoro if both would be near equal just because he can't block the swords?*

And the rest is BS and the Luffy vs Zoro fight showed it very well... Coruscation explained it already.

Thank You


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## Chuck (May 8, 2011)

Scenario 1: Sanji wins this with mid difficulty. Zoro has the disadvantage of one less sword. Zoro is well known for his Santoryuu so only using two swords will definitely affect him. He would have most probably ended his fight with Ryuuma quicker if he had 3 swords. 

Scenario 2: Zoro wins with high difficulty. Sanji would definitely give Zoro a hard-fought win here.


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## Emperor Raizen (May 9, 2011)

Umm, it was fairly obvious to me that Luffy held back against Zoro, to an extent.

Unless you're insinuating Luffy = Zoro.

He also held back against Usopp, that's why he lasted so long.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

Luffy>=Zoro thats how its always been and the DB and the manga supports it.

Ussop's tactics and trickery is what allowed him to fight against a non-serous Luffy for a brief time.


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## Emperor Raizen (May 9, 2011)

It was NEVER Luffy=Zoro, even in Volume 1; it's always been Zoro=Sanji, even way back when.
Tactics\Trickery are ineffective against a much faster opponent.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

No it was NEVER Zoro=Sanji and will NEVER be. And i didnt say it was Luffy=Zoro, i said it was Luffy>=Zoro, its been like that since day one, if you know how the read the manga properly then you would know that.

Ussop came prepared, he had a few days to prepare. Luffy on the other hand was torn inside, he didnt want to fight his friend. Serously Luffy didnt have to use half his strength to beat him.


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## Emperor Raizen (May 9, 2011)

It's ironic that YOU'RE telling ME to read the manga while you're going, "Hurr durr Zoro is stronger than Sanji derp herp", when Oda has done nothing but emphasize their intense rivalry from as far back as the Little Garden arc which is confirmed during Enies Lobby. Oh yeah and there's no way in hell Luffy >\= Zoro; he's always been legitimately stronger seeing as he's the Captain and all.  Comprehend the manga before making ridiculous claims.

Usopp had loads of prep time, sure. 
It's funny how you think Luffy held back on his Sniper but not on his First Mate.

Luffy > Zoro = Sanji > Rest of the SH Crew


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## Thdyingbreed (May 9, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> It's ironic that YOU'RE telling ME to read the manga while you're going, "Hurr durr Zoro is stronger than Sanji derp herp", when Oda has done nothing but emphasize their intense rivalry from as far back as the Little Garden arc which is confirmed during Enies Lobby. Oh yeah and there's no way in hell Luffy >\= Zoro; he's always been legitimately stronger seeing as he's the Captain and all.  Comprehend the manga before making ridiculous claims.
> 
> Usopp had loads of prep time, sure.
> It's funny how you think Luffy held back on his Sniper but not on his First Mate.
> ...


Zoro and Sanji's rivalary is comic relief.

It's never been Zoro = Sanji. Before there respective powerups It was Luffy = Zoro > Sanji then after It was Luffy>Zoro>Sanji. 

It was never Zoro = Sanji Zoro has always stronger then him and always will be that way.

It's become even more apparent that Oda is trying to portary Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength with both of them having Top tier teachers before the timeskip and both of them taking out Arc villains candiates while handicapped.


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## Emperor Raizen (May 9, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Zoro and Sanji's rivalary is comic relief.


...

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Step up your Troll game, son.



Thdyingbreed said:


> It's never been Zoro = Sanji. Before there respective powerups It was Luffy = Zoro > Sanji then after It was Luffy>Zoro>Sanji.


Zoro was never equal to Luffy, ergo, Luffy defeating all the bosses even back in the day such as Morgan\Kuro\Krieg\Arlong etc.
Base Luffy > Base Zoro = Base Sanji; G2\G3 Luffy > Asura Zoro = Diable Jambe Sanji. 
P.S. Zoro didn't "beat" Morgan, he just finished him.



Thdyingbreed said:


> It was never Zoro = Sanji Zoro has always stronger then him and always will be that way.


Nah, Enies Lobby proves otherwise, they even had a current feat where they both one-shot a PX simultaneously. While their Captain one-shot another by himself.



Thdyingbreed said:


> It's become even more apparent that Oda is trying to portary Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength with both of them having Top tier teachers before the timeskip and both of them taking out Arc villains candiates while handicapped.


No, he's actually not, don't talk out of your ass.

Lawl @ Hodi being top-tier; he didn't even use those "steroids" when Zoro beat him and it's not like Sanji couldn't have done the same.

Sanji's also taken out Arc Villains while severely handicapped such as Kuroobi\Jyabura\Absalom.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 9, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> ...
> 
> :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
> 
> Step up your Troll game, son..


When has it ever portrayed as anything other then that? All it is constant bickering the most serious It has gotten is to them competing over who got the bigger Fish. Yeah that's a totally serious rivalry. Smoker and Luffy is a perfect example of a serious rivalry and also Mihawk and Shanks.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Zoro was never equal to Luffy, ergo, Luffy defeating all the bosses even back in the day such as Morgan\Kuro\Krieg\Arlong etc.
> Base Luffy > Base Zoro = Base Sanji; G2\G3 Luffy > Asura Zoro = Diable Jambe Sanji.
> P.S. Zoro didn't "beat" Morgan, he just finished him.


It was clearly emphasized back in Whiskey peak when they fought each other too a stand still. Zoro could of beaten all of Luffy's opponets if he had the same things Luffy did except for obvious ones like Enel becuase Luffy is rubber and If Zoro could get blood on his swords he would of have had a good chance at beating Crocodile.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Nah, Enies Lobby proves otherwise, they even had a current feat where they both one-shot a PX simultaneously. While their Captain one-shot another by himself.


They weren't equal at Enies Lobby hence the Doruiki difference and Zoro got stronger after that at Thriller Bark with his new sword and endurance upgrade from taking in all of Luffy's damage that he accumlated during Thriller Bark.

You're point? Everyone of the moves the Monster Trio did on the Pacifista Post-Ts could of one shot the Pacifista's. Unless you think a Pacifista's can survive being cut in half or having it's neck smashed? They both of clearly one shot a Pacfista on there own.



Emperor Raizen said:


> No, he's actually not, don't talk out of your ass.
> 
> Lawl @ Hodi being top-tier; he didn't even use those "steroids" when Zoro beat him and it's not like Sanji couldn't have done the same.


He clearly is why would he have given only Luffy and Zoro top tier teachers to train them during the timeskip and then after the timeskip have both Luffy and Zoro beat possible arc villain candiates while handicapped. It's clear symbolism that Oda is trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as close in strength.

When did I ever say Hodi was top tier? I said Luffy and Zoro had top tier teachers not Hodi was top tier. 

Again I was talking about the symbolism that Oda is trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as closer it doesn't matter If Sanji could or not have done it that's not what I was adressing.


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## Emperor Raizen (May 9, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> When has it ever portrayed as anything other then that? All it is constant bickering the most serious It has gotten is to them competing over who got the bigger Fish. Yeah that's a totally serious rivalry. Smoker and Luffy is a perfect example of a serious rivalry and also Mihawk and Shanks.


Jesus Christ. I guess you missed the parallel between Kaku and Jyabura which was clearly emphasizing the rivalry between Zoro and Sanji. The reason they don't go batshit crazy and try killing each other every other day is because they're close nakama and their Captain would curbstomp them if they took their "silly" little rivalry a bit too far.

Smoker doesn't even have Haki nor does he know Rokushiki, it's clear that Coby's "Garp" to Luffy's "Roger".
And Mihawk having friendly duels with Shanks doesn't make the swordsman his equal.

Zoro = Sanji; Kaku = Jyabura.



Thdyingbreed said:


> It was clearly emphasized back in Whiskey peak when they fought each other too a stand still. Zoro could of beaten all of Luffy's opponets if he had the same things Luffy did except for obvious ones like Enel becuase Luffy is rubber and If Zoro could get blood on his swords he would of have had a good chance at beating Crocodile.


Luffy held back. Just like he held back on little Usopp. Because he's a Captain who handpicked his crew thus he wouldn't really hurt them.

Prove Zoro could beat all the enemies Luffy did, also, I omitted Eneru for a reason.
Everybody with a brain realizes that base Luffy > "base" Zoro.



Thdyingbreed said:


> They weren't equal at Enies Lobby hence the Doruiki difference and Zoro got stronger after that at Thriller Bark with his new sword and endurance upgrade from taking in all of Luffy's damage that he accumlated during Thriller Bark.


Lawl @ the supposed Douriki difference!!
What was it, like 20?
That's like 4 fodder Marines that Nami\Usopp could KO with one punch...

A sword doesn't make a swordsman, a swordsman makes a sword; you should've learned something from Mihawk vs. Zoro. And Sanji could've done the same.

He was ready to sacrifice himself to save Zoro.



Thdyingbreed said:


> You're point? Everyone of the moves the Monster Trio did on the Pacifista Post-Ts could of one shot the Pacifista's. Unless you think a Pacifista's can survive being cut in half or having it's neck smashed? They both of clearly one shot a Pacfista on there own.


Yep, but they were both pumped and bragging about it, in contrast to Cap'n Luffy who was extremely nonchalant about the whole thing which tells you what...?!?



Thdyingbreed said:


> He clearly is why would he have given only Luffy and Zoro top tier teachers to train them during the timeskip and then after the timeskip have both Luffy and Zoro beat possible arc villain candiates while handicapped. It's clear symbolism that Oda is trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as close in strength.


It's obvious that Sanji's going to stomp the piss out of Vander Decken for screwing with Shirahoshi so I dunno what you're getting at 



Thdyingbreed said:


> When did I ever say Hodi was top tier? I said Luffy and Zoro had top tier teachers not Hodi was top tier.


I guess being taught by an Officer of the Revolutionary Army directly under Ivankov means nothing 
And stop acting like Mihawk is on Silver's level: Rayleigh > Mihawk > Ivan..



Thdyingbreed said:


> Again I was talking about the symbolism that Oda is trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as closer it doesn't matter If Sanji could or not have done it that's not what I was adressing.


Symbolism doesn't mean shit if Sanji can replicate said feats. You do realize that Oda HAS to give Zoro an edge as First Mate.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 9, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> Jesus Christ. I guess you missed the parallel between Kaku and Jyabura which was clearly emphasizing the rivalry between Zoro and Sanji. The reason they don't go batshit crazy and try killing each other every other day is because they're close nakama and their Captain would curbstomp them if they took their "silly" little rivalry a bit too far.
> 
> Smoker doesn't even have Haki nor does he know Rokushiki, it's clear that Coby's "Garp" to Luffy's "Roger".
> And Mihawk having friendly duels with Shanks doesn't make the swordsman his equal.
> ...


So that doesn't make them equals If Zoro and Sanji were equals there would of been no douriki difference between them at Enies Lobbies and as I showed earlier Zoro clearly got stronger then Sanji at Thriller Bark with his feats.

Smoker didn't Pre-TS he most likely learned about it as he was pretty damn suprised when Boa Hancock hit him with it and he was in the New World for 2 years with experienced Pirates. So he definitley would of learned about so as not to fall behind and be able to deal with other Logia's.

I never said they were equals I was using that as an example of an actual rivalary and anyways Mihawk>Shank but that's another topic.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Luffy held back. Just like he held back on little Usopp. Because he's a Captain who handpicked his crew thus he wouldn't really hurt them.
> 
> Prove Zoro could beat all the enemies Luffy did, also, I omitted Eneru for a reason.
> Everybody with a brain realizes that base Luffy > "base" Zoro.


He didn't hold back it was made clear both of them were going all out on each other. It was pretty obvious which is why Zoro was severley handicapped in most of his fights and at Whiskey Peak they were portrayed as equals and when Arlong saw Zoro get up he decided he had to kill right then there he was that much of a threat and people always thought Zoro could of been strong enough to beat most of Luffy's opponet's before Enies Lobbies. As long as he get's the same advantages Luffy has I.E he knows about Crocodile's weakness.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Lawl @ the supposed Douriki difference!!
> What was it, like 20?
> That's like 4 fodder Marines that Nami\Usopp could KO with one punch...
> 
> A sword doesn't make a swordsman, a swordsman makes a sword; you should've learned something from Mihawk vs. Zoro. And Sanji could've done the same.


The point is there is a difference and Zoro and Sanji have never been completley equals. Shusui was obviously a decent increase in strength for Zoro as he even mentioned how he felt his attacks had gotten stronger along with his endurance upgrade. All that served to widen the gap between Zoro and Sanji.



Emperor Raizen said:


> He was ready to sacrifice himself to save Zoro.
> 
> 
> Yep, but they were both pumped and bragging about it, in contrast to Cap'n Luffy who was extremely nonchalant about the whole thing which tells you what...?!?.


Obviously any member of the Strawhats would sacrifice themselves for each other there bonds as Nakama. Take priority over some petty rivalry that is mostly used for comic relief.



Emperor Raizen said:


> It's obvious that Sanji's going to stomp the piss out of Vander Decken for screwing with Shirahoshi so I dunno what you're getting at .


I don't think so as that would leave Luffy no one too fight currently he will probably fight him later once the whole Hodi situation at the palace is resolved..



Emperor Raizen said:


> I guess being taught by an Officer of the Revolutionary Army directly under Ivankov means nothing
> And stop acting like Mihawk is on Silver's level: Rayleigh > Mihawk > Ivan...


Ivankov clearly isn't a top tier or he wouldn't have been beaten by Magellan. Both Luffy and Zoro got top tier teachers while Sanji got someone significantly weaker.

Oh please Mihawk is stronger then Rayleigh Mihawk is the "World's Strongest Swordsman" he is stronger then any other swordsman currently until he is either defeated or acknowledges someone as stronger. Add on to that fact that Rayleigh is an old man who wouldn't last as Mihawk due to Mihawk being a lot younger then him.




Emperor Raizen said:


> Symbolism doesn't mean shit if Sanji can replicate said feats. You do realize that Oda HAS to give Zoro an edge as First Mate.


It clearly does mean shit when the Author has been trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength then he is to Sanji. If he wanted to portray them all as being same in strength he could of easily had it like this Zoro takes out Hyouzou, Sanji takes out of Hodi, Luffy takes out VDD. But no he decides to have Sanji sit it out and have both Luffy and Zoro take out an arc villian candiates while handicapped and them both having top tier teachers while Sanji doesn't. 

Is clear indication that the author is trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength and how Oda wants us to view it is much more important then our own personal views because he is the author.


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## Kishido (May 9, 2011)

Yeah the teacher shit is up again.^^

I love that. I counter that argument with. Sanji was running 2 years day and night and on top of that had 99 teachers + he is smarter + ate the secret recipes of becoming stronger

And why he was left out. Wait Hodi and VDD = 2... Monster Trio = 3. Hyouzou is chilling around. Hodi and VDD were owned like bitches... but you think Sanji couldn beat the shit out of them as well, just becaus he was left out for the comedy?

the arc has only began or do you think the current fight has meant something?


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## Emperor Raizen (May 9, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Smoker didn't Pre-TS he most likely learned about it as he was pretty damn suprised when Boa Hancock hit him with it and he was in the New World for 2 years with experienced Pirates. So he definitley would of learned about so as not to fall behind and be able to deal with other Logia's.


Prove it. Goddamn ACE didn't learn Haki despite sailing for ~3 years and being an Officer on Newgate's ship, yeah, the Pirate King's own flesh and blood. Smoker doesn't strike me as strong aside from his Logia, Coby actually does seem impressive.



Thdyingbreed said:


> I never said they were equals I was using that as an example of an actual rivalary and anyways Mihawk>Shank but that's another topic.


Ah. And you have absolutely NO basis that somebody who stalemated Newgate is weaker than Mihawk.



Thdyingbreed said:


> He didn't hold back it was made clear both of them were going all out on each other. It was pretty obvious which is why Zoro was severley handicapped in most of his fights and at Whiskey Peak they were portrayed as equals and when Arlong saw Zoro get up he decided he had to kill right then there he was that much of a threat and people always thought Zoro could of been strong enough to beat most of Luffy's opponet's before Enies Lobbies. As long as he get's the same advantages Luffy has I.E he knows about Crocodile's weakness.


No, Luffy was holding back. Unless you're willing to claim: Luffy = Zoro = Usopp. Sanji's always handicapped too so moot point. Arlong tried to kill Sanji as well. Also, I could care less what random people think, Zoro isn't one who'd follow somebody weaker or equal to him in power which proves that Luffy would punk his ass. And Croc would've stomped Zoro considering he barely beat Daz Bones.



Thdyingbreed said:


> The point is there is a difference and Zoro and Sanji have never been completley equals. Shusui was obviously a decent increase in strength for Zoro as he even mentioned how he felt his attacks had gotten stronger along with his endurance upgrade. All that served to widen the gap between Zoro and Sanji.


I know they've never been EXACTLY equal but 20 Douriki doesn't mean shit, c'mon. Sanji gained Diable Jambe: Frit Assorti which is far stronger than Shishi Sonson unless Zoro uses Asura. And Sanji could've also absorbed Luffy's pain and fatigue.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Obviously any member of the Strawhats would sacrifice themselves for each other there bonds as Nakama. Take priority over some petty rivalry that is mostly used for comic relief.


A supposedly "petty" rivalry that even the Captain's aware of. Luffy stated they were unbeatable on a team.



Thdyingbreed said:


> I don't think so as that would leave Luffy no one too fight currently he will probably fight him later once the whole Hodi situation at the palace is resolved..


The boss villain's obviously going to be Hodi\Decken on Steroids.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Ivankov clearly isn't a top tier or he wouldn't have been beaten by Magellan. Both Luffy and Zoro got top tier teachers while Sanji got someone significantly weaker.


Wow. Ivankov took on Bartholomew Kuma. And you act like Magellan is weak considering he solo'd Teach's entire crew.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Oh please Mihawk is stronger then Rayleigh Mihawk is the "World's Strongest Swordsman" he is stronger then any other swordsman currently until he is either defeated or acknowledges someone as stronger. Add on to that fact that Rayleigh is an old man who wouldn't last as Mihawk due to Mihawk being a lot younger then him.


Get that shit out of my face. Mihawk being stronger than Shanks was already ludicrous but being stronger than the Pirate King's First Mate... 



Thdyingbreed said:


> It clearly does mean shit when the Author has been trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength then he is to Sanji. If he wanted to portray them all as being same in strength he could of easily had it like this Zoro takes out Hyouzou, Sanji takes out of Hodi, Luffy takes out VDD. But no he decides to have Sanji sit it out and have both Luffy and Zoro take out an arc villian candiates while handicapped and them both having top tier teachers while Sanji doesn't.


Wow, VD hasn't been stomped yet, it wasn't even really much of a serious fight. Sanji's going to punk him. And I guess somebody missed Sanji's Blue Walk tech + being able to activate Diable Jambe underwater


----------



## Thdyingbreed (May 9, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> Prove it. Goddamn ACE didn't learn Haki despite sailing for ~3 years and being an Officer on Newgate's ship, yeah, the Pirate King's own flesh and blood. Smoker doesn't strike me as strong aside from his Logia, Coby actually does seem impressive.


So Ace and Smoker aren't the same character and it's an obvious part of Smoker's progression to keep with up Luffy so Luffy's blunt force immunity won't matter anymore.




Emperor Raizen said:


> Ah. And you have absolutely NO basis that somebody who stalemated Newgate is weaker than Mihawk.


He did in a Bisento vs Sword clash If it was a full out fight Whitebeard of won. I do have a basis Mihawk's title makes him stronger he is the "World's Strongest Swordsman" stronger then any other until defeated that is a fact. Shanks is a swordsman so therefore Mihawk>Shanks.



Emperor Raizen said:


> No, Luffy was holding back. Unless you're willing to claim: Luffy = Zoro = Usopp. Sanji's always handicapped too so moot point. Arlong tried to kill Sanji as well. Also, I could care less what random people think, Zoro isn't one who'd follow somebody weaker or equal to him in power which proves that Luffy would punk his ass. And Croc would've stomped Zoro considering he barely beat Daz Bones.


The difference Luffy and Zoro were actually close in strength while Usopp is far behind in terms of strength. Yeah but Arlong didn't outright state "I have to kill this man no matter what" like he did with Zoro and you can tell by the look on his face how serious he was. That's you're opinon on it and has Zoro ever stated he wouldn't follow someone who is equal to him? 

But anyways Zoro and Luffy were equal up until Enies Lobbies and then Luffy surpassed him as I've never argued they were equal after EL just that Zoro and Luffy are closer in strength then he is to Sanji. Sure Luffy would win but not without extremley high difficulty as the gap between the Monster Trio isn't that big. 



Emperor Raizen said:


> Sanji gained Diable Jambe: Frit Assorti which is far stronger than Shishi Sonson unless Zoro uses Asura. And Sanji could've also absorbed Luffy's pain and fatigue.


If Sanji could of absorbed Zoro's pain why was he knocked out for hours instead of getting right back up a couple of minutes afterwords. But no he gets up hours afterwords Zoro's endurance is greater then Sanji's. 



Emperor Raizen said:


> A supposedly "petty" rivalry that even the Captain's aware of. Luffy stated they were unbeatable on a team...


Obviously all of the Strawhats have good teamwork together this was clearly demonstrated in TB and in SA. There rivalary isn't going too get in the way of something as important as saving a Nakama or defeating a villain.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Wow. Ivankov took on Bartholomew Kuma. And you act like Magellan is weak considering he solo'd Teach's entire crew.


Yes because taking on = beating someone. Also the fact that It wasn't even Kuma anymore which nerfs him further and Kuma isn't a top tier anyways.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Get that shit out of my face.
> Mihawk being stronger than Shanks was already ludicrous but being stronger than the Pirate King's First Mate...


So you think Rayleigh is stronger then Shanks . Rayleigh is obviously strong as hell but he's certainly not as strong as Shanks or Mihawk and as I've said before Mihawk's title makes him stronger then both of them. Mihawk>all other Swordsman until defeated. Deal with it.



Emperor Raizen said:


> Wow, VD hasn't been stomped yet, it wasn't even really much of a serious fight. Sanji's going to punk him. And I guess somebody missed Sanji's Blue Walk tech + being able to activate Diable Jambe underwater


Well the arc villains in this Arc are pretty trash and need ES as crutch. Yes and when Zoro one shotted Hodi the Fishman commented on how Zoro was faster then a Fishman in the water and there's nothing going against Zoro being able to use Ashura in the water as well.


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## Kishido (May 9, 2011)

Just to clarify one thing... Sanji is near to Zoro. Zoro would win in a full out fight.

But I hate this he had no top tier trainer or this tupid Zoro has fought Hodi but Sanji not so far shit.

I just have to diagree in one thing, even if we won't see this ever again... I doubt Sanji could take the damage in TB

And to the Zoro knocked out Sanji shit... Yeah Vegeta knocked out Goku. Vegeta >>>> Goku.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> It's ironic that YOU'RE telling ME to read the manga while you're going, "Hurr durr Zoro is stronger than Sanji derp herp", when Oda has done nothing but emphasize their intense rivalry from as far back as the Little Garden arc which is confirmed during Enies Lobby. Oh yeah and there's no way in hell Luffy >\= Zoro; he's always been legitimately stronger seeing as he's the Captain and all.  Comprehend the manga before making ridiculous claims.
> 
> Usopp had loads of prep time, sure.
> It's funny how you think Luffy held back on his Sniper but not on his First Mate.
> ...



Their rivarly or w/e u call it is a gag. It makes things funnier nothing more nothing less. Im not saying Sanji is weak, but just because someone has rivarly (gag) with someone doesnt make them equals, was Garp equal to Roger they had a rivarly, he could fight with him and give a dam good fight but they wernt equals.

Zoro fought a bloodlusted Luffy at whiskey peak and they tied. Then in TB Zoro takes the captains entire damage and he got Shuusia which uped his swordmanship. The DB even says they have equal fighting power and that was released right after EL. So all your points are moot. sorry.

Again Luffy was fucking bloodlusted, he really wanted to kick Zoro's ass back then, and Zoro said he wouldnt hold back. They both went all out this is canon. 

Why am i even argueing with you, your the goof who thinks Ryuma and Brook are on par.


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Preskip IMO it was G2 luffy>Asura zoro= DJ sanji>Base zoro=Base sanji>base luffy.

Also, dj has become a base move for sanji post ts, he probly has stronger shit up his sleeve now.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 9, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> Preskip IMO it was G2 luffy>Asura zoro= DJ sanji>Base zoro=Base sanji>base luffy.
> 
> Also, dj has become a base move for sanji post ts, he probly has stronger shit up his sleeve now.


Yeah no it was Luffy>Zoro>Sanji as it always has and always will be.



KiShiDo said:


> Just to clarify one thing... Sanji is near to Zoro. Zoro would win in a full out fight.
> 
> But I hate this he had no top tier trainer or this tupid Zoro has fought Hodi but Sanji not so far shit.
> 
> ...


Same as how Zoro is close to Luffy every member of the Monster Trio would have to use there all to defeat one another.

Anyways as I've stated earlier It's about the symbolism that's Oda has been trying to portray that Zoro is closer to Luffy then Zoro and not the feats themselves.

Never said It makes him better just that It's one of the reasons as to why Sanji wouldn't have been able to take Luffy's pain. 

Because If he could of he would of gotten up a few minutes later instead of hours but anyways we both agree on this point.


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Yeah no it was Luffy>Zoro>Sanji as it always has and always will be.
> 
> Same as how Zoro is close to Luffy every member of the Monster Trio would have to use there all to defeat one another.
> 
> ...


Everything you say is baseless, opinion that you state as fact.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

How people say Sanji=Zoro just baffles me. Its Luffy>=Zoro>Sanji the Manga and DB supports it. Something id like to know is what makes Sanji equal to Zoro?

And if you havnt noticed Zoro struck down Kaku with just one Ashura strike, it toke Sanji two DJ kicks to beat Jyabura. Again i fail how to see DJ=Ashura


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> How people say Sanji=Zoro just baffles me. Its Luffy>=Zoro>Sanji the Manga and DB supports it. Something id like to know is what makes Sanji equal to Zoro?
> 
> And if you havnt noticed Zoro struck down Kaku with just one Ashura strike, it toke Sanji two DJ kicks to beat Jyabura. Again i fail how to see DJ=Ashura



Jyabura had a strong tekkai to break through, and sanji had an easier time with an apponent with 20 less douriki, but more experienced with his devil fruit/had a carnivorous zoan.

Also, sanji had a better showing against oars, he deflected a gomu attack completely while zorro only deflected a regular attack.

If anything the pacifista post skip incident and the serume fight shows sanji=zoro with luffy slightly ahead of them.

Anywon saying otherwise is a zoro fanboy.


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## Omnirix (May 9, 2011)

Actually Asura > DJ 

It turned Kaku's strongest skyscrapper slicer into mist easily with a base non-signature attack and took Kaku out in one-shot. 

While Jyabura is still standing after one signature DJ kick and only got KOed after a kick in the head which sents him plumming into the ground dozens of meters below.

In other words it took more from DJ to down Jyabura than it took for Asura to down Kaku.


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Actually Asura > DJ
> 
> It turned Kaku's strongest skyscrapper slicer into mist easily with a base non-signature attack and took Kaku out in one-shot.
> 
> While Jyabura is still standing after one signature DJ kick and only got KOed after a kick in the head which sents him plumming into the ground dozens of meters below.



DJ seems more like a sustainable mode while asura seems like a single attack, thats like saying asura>G2 because g2 wouldnt have put kaku out 1 shot.

Also, as ive said, jyabura had a strong tekkai to go through, kaku didnt.


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## Omnirix (May 9, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> DJ seems more like a sustainable mode while asura seems like a single attack, thats like saying asura>G2 because g2 wouldnt have put kaku out 1 shot.


Slicing/piercing damage actually /=/ blunt force damage. In fact, usually slicing damage injures the victim more than punches or kicks. And Zoro actually used 2 attacks (one unnamed and one signature) to take down kaku easily.

I am not saying Asura > G2. Its just Asura can cause more severe damage.



DarkRasengan said:


> Also, as ive said, jyabura had a strong tekkai to go through, kaku didnt.


Asura nevertheless turned Kaku's strongest skyscrapper slicer into mist easily. That pretty much triumphs any tekkai.


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Slicing/piercing damage actually /=/ blunt force damage. In fact, usually slicing damage injures the victim more than punches or kicks. And Zoro actually used 2 attacks (one unnamed and one signature) to take down kaku easily.
> 
> 
> Asura nevertheless turned Kaku's strongest attack skyscrapper attack into mist easily. That pretty much triumphs any tekkai.



Well youve just countered your own first point, he used 2 attacks not 1. And no it doesnt trump a tekkai, tekkai is a defensive move that would have more devensive strength than an offensive move. Bypassing a defense is a bigger feat than bypassing an offense with a greater offense.


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## Omnirix (May 9, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> Well youve just countered your own first point, he used 2 attacks not 1. And no it doesnt trump a tekkai, tekkai is a defensive move that would have more devensive strength than an offensive move. *Bypassing a defense is a bigger feat than bypassing an offense with a greater offense.*



Actually it does. Unless your claiming any tekkai in existence so far can withstand a skyscrapper slash like Kaku's.


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Heroic Trunks said:


> Actually it does. Unless your claiming any tekkai in existence so far can withstand a skyscrapper slash like Kaku's.



No, it doesnt, and skyscraper slash doesnt mean anything its not even the name of an attack and a name doesnt mean anything, a tekkai is a defense and it trumps an offense as such.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> Jyabura had a strong tekkai to break through, and sanji had an easier time with an apponent with 20 less douriki, but more experienced with his devil fruit/had a carnivorous zoan.
> 
> Also, sanji had a better showing against oars, he deflected a gomu attack completely while zorro only deflected a regular attack.
> 
> If anything the pacifista post skip incident and the serume fight shows sanji=zoro with luffy slightly ahead of them.



Sanji didnt have an easier time, i would even say Sanji had a harder time. He was starting to get overwhelmed and ruffed up once Jyabura got serous and started berraging him with ranged attacks. Jyabura even got him a very disadvantageous situation and if it wernt for DJ he would of lost, Zoro on the other hand, was doing abolsutly fine, its debatable at best if he actually needed to use ashura to win. 
Zoro could fight BOTH Kaku & Jyabura just fine while he was handicapped (he was cuffed to Ussop). 

Also, kaku with swords>Jyabura, douriki does not factor in swords,Df's,other tools. Zoro always fights a slightly stronger opponent.

what are you talking about, are you making sutff up now?...Zoro and Sanji had very similar showings against Oars. Sanji actually used DJ to deflect oars punch, Zoro with the help of his new sword deflected it without using his most advanced technique.

The pacifista incident proves nothing, it does prove that Sanji and Zoro have similar speed though. However, Zoro SLICED right through it, thats a definite kill. Sanji could K0 one aswell, its pretty clear the M3 can one shot a pacifista. Again, the pacifista proves nothing, going by your logic, i could just say Luffy and Zoro KOing the arc villains puts them far ahead of Sanji.


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## DarkRasengan (May 9, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> No he didnt, i would even say Sanji had a harder time. He was starting to get overwhelmed and ruffed up once Jyabura got serous and started berraging him with ranged attacks. Jyabura even got him a very disadvanagous situation and if it wernt for DJ he would of lost, Zoro on the other hand was doing abolsutly fine, its debatable at best if he actually needed to use ashura to win.
> 
> And Zoro was fighting both Kaku & Jyabura just fine while he was handicapped (he was cuffed to Ussop). Also kaku with swords>Jyabura, douriki does not factor in swords,Df's,other tools. Zoro always fights a slightly stronger opponent.
> 
> ...



You havent countered any of my points you simply denied them.


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## Omnirix (May 9, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> No, it doesnt, and skyscraper slash doesnt mean anything its not even the name of an attack and a name doesnt mean anything, a tekkai is a defense and it trumps an offense as such.



An offense that beats another offense that can beat a defense means the former offense can beat said defense as well. 

It is ludicrous to say that a bazooka isn't stronger than a bullet that penetrates a shield. 

Unless you have scans showing that Jyabura's tekkai is shown to withstand Kaku's Amane Dachi, the rankyaku that sliced the skyscrapper sized tower which Asura turned into mist easily, tekkai isn't doing jack.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> You havent countered any of my points you simply denied them.



I have countered each point...get off Sanji's cock.


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## Blitzomaru (May 9, 2011)

I just saw that this thread has been resurrected and I just want to say... enough. Really. it doesn't matter. no matter what side you support, you'll get labeled a sanji/Zoro Tard, no matter what type of evidence you provide, no oen will see your point just as you won't see theirs. Until Sanji and Zoro have an actual all-out fight, this thread will just turn into people cursing and insulting each other while still believing that they are getting their point across, which will lead to further arguments/flaming.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 9, 2011)

There is actually strong evidence and symbolism suggesting Zoro>Sanji, but some people are blinded by their fandom. 

It really simple, the manga dictates: Captain>First Mate(which literaly means vice captain)>Chef it doesnt matter if Sanji is a part of the M3, its just the way it is.


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## Kishido (May 10, 2011)

No one doubts that^^

The problem with this. That some Zoro fans are claiming him to be on a completely other level and even a half serious or handicaped Zoro would own Sanji

To EL
Jabura and Kaku were playing around with Usopp and Zoro and where not even serious. By that logic Sanji was handicaped against Jabura, cuz he had fought and let himself being owned by Kalifa before... But still has beaten Jabura faster. Kaku was starting to overhelm Zoro a bit as well and than Zoro used Ashura. But both weren't that much damaged after their fights. And if you say Kaku with swords makes him automatic far stronger it is bullshit.

Against Oars
Yeah Zoro reflected a SIMPLE Punch by Oars BEFORE he was able to stretch with Moria's powers. Sanji used DJ... Yeah... But he REFLECTED a FULLY STRETCHED Oars Bazooka

And I won't talk with people, who still don't see the difference between Ashura and DJ or gear2... it was talked to death like most of the shit here


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## DarkRasengan (May 10, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> I have countered each point...get off Sanji's cock.



No you didnt, get your cock out of your ear.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 10, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> No you didnt, get your cock out of your ear.



What i've said came out of the manga, the stuff you've said like "Sanji performed better then Zoro against Oars" came right out of your ass. Up until Kuma arrived Z&S had similar feats. You started grasping at straws once i countered your points. Your entire arguement has been: Sanji=Zoro if anyone thinks otherewise they are Zoro fanboys...

Im going to stop argueing with you now, your the guy who thinks Sanji has better feats then Zoro


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## Butt Hole lol (May 10, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> No one doubts that^^
> 
> The problem with this. That some Zoro fans are claiming him to be on a completely other level and even a half serious or handicaped Zoro would own Sanji



And the problem with Sanji fans is that they think he's faster,has better feats and is a complete equal to Zoro. Its implied Sanji is close to Zoro's level, but not equal. 

And besides, i havnt seen ANYONE on these forums say Zoro would rape Sanji. Maybe the other forums you visit is filled with 10-year olds who cant make coherent sentences in which case u should ignore them...



> To EL
> Jabura and Kaku were playing around with Usopp and Zoro and where not even serious. By that logic Sanji was handicaped against Jabura, cuz he had fought and let himself being owned by Kalifa before... But still has beaten Jabura faster. Kaku was starting to overhelm Zoro a bit as well and than Zoro used Ashura. But both weren't that much damaged after their fights. And if you say Kaku with swords makes him automatic far stronger it is bullshit.



They werent playing, sure they wernt going all out, but K&J actually wanted to kill Z&U still. Sanji beating Jyabura faster does NOT mean he had an easier fight.
And i never said Kaku was far stronger with his swords.People usually over look the fact Kaku could fight without swords, and he was a confirmed swordsmen which means he's at his best when he's weilding his swords. Although kaku uped his game when he drew out his swords and started to put alot more pressure on Zoro, it still wasnt as clear if he was going to lose his fight like it was with Sanji. 



> Against Oars
> Yeah Zoro reflected a SIMPLE Punch by Oars BEFORE he was able to stretch with Moria's powers. Sanji used DJ... Yeah... But he REFLECTED a FULLY STRETCHED Oars Bazooka



Deflecting an oars punch is still impressive if he didnt need to use his most advanced technique to do it. I doubt Sanji could deflect an oars punch in base the same way Zoro did. 



> And I won't talk with people, who still don't see the difference between Ashura and DJ or gear2... it was talked to death like most of the shit here


G3=extreme strength
G2=extreme speed
Ashura=was completely able to disperse Kaku's strongest attack with ease, and confuses your opponent??? Thats all we know about it.
DJ=extreme heat+strength 

Anyway, its clear that Ashura>DJ. Zoro beat kaku with just one Ashura strike, it toke 2 kicks to beats Jyabura. And Luffy nearly KOed Lucci with a G3 punch.


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## Kishido (May 10, 2011)

Ahh yeah so deflecting a fully stretched bazooka isn't that impressive. Even if bazooka is using 2 hands and stretched has more force. 

By your logic i could say. I doubt that Zoro without Ashura could defelct it. Now disprove that.

That's another problem. Zoro is lifting a house..: everyone is yelling how awesome. Sanji is kicking building parts easily like footballs... Zoro can do that as well.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 10, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> Ahh yeah so deflecting a fully stretched bazooka isn't that impressive. Even if bazooka is using 2 hands and stretched has more force. .



because i said it wasnt impressive right?



> By your logic i could say. I doubt that Zoro without Ashura could defelct it. Now disprove that.


what? 

Well it seemed like Ashura gave him a strength boost cuz he dispersed Kaku's strongest attack with ease. So could probably deflect it :/



> That's another problem. Zoro is lifting a house..: everyone is yelling how awesome. Sanji is kicking building parts easily like footballs... Zoro can do that as well.



Zoro lifting a house was like 300 chapters before Sanji kicked pieces of buildings with his foot, thats why people found it so impressive.

Zoro cant Kick half the shit Sanji can, and he cant punch half the shit Luffy can, whats your point? He's a swordsmen not a brawler.


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## Kishido (May 10, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> because i said it wasnt impressive right?
> 
> 
> what?
> ...



OK so now disprove Sanji couldn't do repell a regular oars punch with one hand and without stretching in abse form

The problem is. Even if Sanji is doing things as impressive or not people downplay them and say, Zoro were better.

Just an example is the PX. Sanji used DJ, zoro not. Both OHkoed it. People say but Sanji used DJ and Zoro not.

But no one mentiones that Lufyf even used haki + gear 2. If haki is using DJ it = not as awesome. it was even pre Ts that way. Both Sanji and Luffy used Gear 2 and DJ all the time but Zoro not Ashura, cuz it is a move and not a mode in the way the others are.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 10, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> OK so now disprove Sanji couldn't do repell a regular oars punch with one hand and without stretching in abse form



I doubt Zoro could of pulled it off without shuusui, right after he deflected his punch he even mentioned how much power the sword gave him. Thats why i dont think base Sanji could of pulled it off.



> Just an example is the PX. Sanji used DJ, zoro not. Both OHkoed it. People say but Sanji used DJ and Zoro not.



Thats Post-skip, alot of people agree by now that DJ has become a base move just like G2 has for Luffy.



> But no one mentiones that Lufyf even used haki + gear 2. If haki is using DJ it = not as awesome. it was even pre Ts that way. Both Sanji and Luffy used Gear 2 and DJ all the time but Zoro not Ashura, cuz it is a move and not a mode in the way the others are.



Even if Ashura is a move instead of a mode, all he needs it is for one attack anyway. Usually when Sanji or Luffy use DJ or G3 they usually turn it back off right after an attack.


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## Kishido (May 10, 2011)

Butt Hole lol said:


> I doubt Zoro could of pulled it off without shuusui, right after he deflected his punch he even mentioned how much power the sword gave him. Thats why i dont think base Sanji could of pulled it off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Still G2 and DJ are enhancing the basic moves. Ashura is a total different move and he isn't saying Ashura - oni Giri or using it to enhance one of his lower class moves

Luffy and Sanji  chose what attack they are using. A Gear 2 pistol isn't stronger than a Gear 2 Bazooka and so on. . So far we only have seen 2 moves of Ashura which were completely different than any other of Zoro's attacks.

but we will see how it be played out in the future. For me DJ and Gear 2 are completey different than Ashura and more compareable to let me say... the pound canons which varify in strenght when zoro is using more swords

But who cares.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 10, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> Jyabura had a strong tekkai to break through, and sanji had an easier time with an apponent with 20 less douriki, but more experienced with his devil fruit/had a carnivorous zoan.
> 
> Also, sanji had a better showing against oars, he deflected a gomu attack completely while zorro only deflected a regular attack.
> 
> ...


You're point your trying too say there equal when they were NEVER equal even at Enies Lobbies and that only counts at EL that 20 Douriki difference.

So? Previous strength feats have shown that any of the Strawhats could of done that don't try and pass that off as something only Sanji could of done. 
What has Sanji shown that matches Zoro's damage increase from Shusui and his endurance upgrade from Thriller Bark? 

Absoultley nothing.

So? The symbolism Oda is trying to portray is clear with only Luffy and Zoro being the ones who got top tier teachers before the timeskip and both of them one shotting potential arc villains while handicapped means he obviously is trying to portray Luffy and Zoro as closer in strength. And the authors opinion matters more then any of ours.

You're the fanboy here your the only person I've ever seen that trys too claim Sanji is equal to Zoro It never has been and never will be the case. Deal with it.


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## DarkRasengan (May 10, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> You're point your trying too say there equal when they were NEVER equal even at Enies Lobbies and that only counts at EL that 20 Douriki difference.
> 
> So? Previous strength feats have shown that any of the Strawhats could of done that don't try and pass that off as something only Sanji could of done.
> What has Sanji shown that matches Zoro's damage increase from Shusui and his endurance upgrade from Thriller Bark?
> ...



Yeah, jyabura had his fruit longer AND had a carnivorous zoan.

No, previous strength feats havent shown any other straw hat could do that, im not saying zoro couldnt, im saying he didnt and nothing the rest of the straw hats have shown before that implied they could too, if there is give an example.

Franky trained in vegapunks lab, so i guess hes above sanji? Robin trained with dragon so i guess hes above sanji? No, sanji faught constantly against many opponents day and night, he grew just as much as zoro and luffy just in a different way.

Im not the fanboy im only the one using logic, zoro and luffy arents equal, zoro and sanji are much closer.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 10, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> Yeah, jyabura had his fruit longer AND had a carnivorous zoan.
> 
> No, previous strength feats havent shown any other straw hat could do that, im not saying zoro couldnt, im saying he didnt and nothing the rest of the straw hats have shown before that implied they could too, if there is give an example.
> 
> ...


The Monster Trio have always had strength that is very close all of them could of done that. That and the fact that Zoro deflected a hit from Oar's as well there is absolutley nothing that suggests Zoro couldn't have deflected the same hit as Sanji did. So stop trying to build Strawmen. 

Zoro has gained an edge on Sanji as he hasn't shown anything that matches Zoro's strength increase from Shusui or his endurance upgrade from taking in all of Luffy's pain.

So? They weren't trained by Top tiers and they weren't close in strength to Zoro and obviously there not going to surpass Sanji either.

I've never said Zoro and Luffy were equals I've said Oda is trying to portray them as close in strength which he has been doing since right before the timeskip started he clearly intends to keep them closer in strength then he is to Sanji. 

That has been shown with only Luffy and Zoro getting top tiers teachers and having both of them take out pontential arc villain candiates while handicapped is clear as day symbolism of that. 

As I've said before what the Author is trying to portray is more important then are own assumptions of it.

It's not like there's a huge gap anyways any member of the Monster Trio would force each other to go all out to pull off a victory. Just Zoro is closer in terms of strength to Luffy then he is to Sanji.


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## MartyMcFly1 (May 10, 2011)

What is this endurance increase from taking Luffy's pain everyone keeps talking about? During SA Zoro was a mess! He was the crews biggest liability at that point. And the attack from Oars that Sanji deflected was bigger and stronger than the blows Zoro deflected, so that right there is a feat that Zoro has yet to do. Zoro and Sanji are very close to being equal, many would say that Zoro is significantly stronger than him but there is no evidence hinting at that. There is certainly more evidence that they are equal with Zoro SLIGHTLY(verrrry slight) above him. Calculating it in douriki Zoro would be like 5 points higher.

Also the "strength increase" that Zoro received from Shisui is mediocre at best, it really hasn't been elaborated on very much so people shouldn't use it to construct arguments.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 10, 2011)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> What is this endurance increase from taking Luffy's pain everyone keeps talking about? During SA Zoro was a mess! He was the crews biggest liability at that point. And the attack from Oars that Sanji deflected was bigger and stronger than the blows Zoro deflected, so that right there is a feat that Zoro has yet to do. Zoro and Sanji are very close to being equal, many would say that Zoro is significantly stronger than him but there is no evidence hinting at that. There is certainly more evidence that they are equal with Zoro SLIGHTLY(verrrry slight) above him. Calculating it in douriki Zoro would be like 5 points higher.


Obviously because the wounds were fresh at that point but in a normal fight when he starts at full health his endurance thereshold will be a lot higher then what It was before. Again all of the current strength feats the Monster Trio have shown in the past and Zoro being able too deflect a punch from Oar's indicates Zoro and Luffy could of done that themselves If in that situation. But you keep building those Strawmen. 

Anyways what has Sanji done that matches Zoro's strength increase Shusui and his endurance upgrade from Kuma?

5 Points in Douriki yeah no It's not that low If Luffy is 100 Zoro is 97 Sanji is 93-94. If we use an 100 as a cap for stats. Note: I'm not using Doruiki as a scale. 

But anyways I've never said the gap was huge or anything but It's definitely not as low as some of the people on this thread think It and Zoro is closer to Luffy in  strength anyways not that It matters since everyone would force each other to go all out in a fight.


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## Kishido (May 10, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Obviously because the wounds were fresh at that point but in a normal fight when he starts at full health his endurance thereshold will be a lot higher then what It was before. Again all of the current strength feats the Monster Trio have shown in the past and Zoro being able too deflect a punch from Oar's indicates Zoro and Luffy could of done that themselves If in that situation. But you keep building those Strawmen.
> 
> Anyways what has Sanji done that matches Zoro's strength increase Shusui and his endurance upgrade from Kuma?
> 
> ...



God no one doubts that. But even in your scale they are close. 

But the whole top tier teacher thing is shit. Yeah Zoro had Mihawk... Sanji had NO trainer after all but had to fight night and day + had to fight 99 masters for recipes which makes him and the crew stronger + he is smarter after all. So how can you messure that?If you go by that I can say... Sanji was always stronger cuz he had a legendary pirate as mentor and trainer but Zoro hadn't in the past before the timeskip.

And even with Shusui... What has Zoro done what Sanji hasn't shown so far with this sword. Sanji deflected and even bigger attack than Zoro with his new sword. Zoro could do it for sure as well... So it means shit.

And taking pain... Yeah... Zoro was the one taking the pain and even I say Sanji probably wouldn't be able to take that. But what does this prove? Vegeta has knocked out Goku. Is he stronger?

Same with this arc. Just because Luffy owned VDD, who was back up on his feet right away, and Zoro owned Hodi means Sanji isn't able to pull it. Maybe you haven't recognized... oda was using him for comedy for that time. It is like saying Sanji would be able to take on an priest at Skypia because he was taken out by Enel for that arc


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## Thdyingbreed (May 10, 2011)

KiShiDo said:


> God no one doubts that. But even in your scale they are close.
> 
> But the whole top tier teacher thing is shit. Yeah Zoro had Mihawk... Sanji had NO trainer after all but had to fight night and day + had to fight 99 masters for recipes which makes him and the crew stronger + he is smarter after all. So how can you messure that?If you go by that I can say... Sanji was always stronger cuz he had a legendary pirate as mentor and trainer but Zoro hadn't in the past before the timeskip.
> 
> ...


Yeah well I don't there that far off It's just when people starting say It's something like "5 Douriki" difference which is absolutely retarded It's clearly bigger then that and it's blatant fanboyism. Not saying you have but other people in this thread have.

All of those teachers were probably weaker then Ivankov but anyways the point I was trying to make was with the symbolism that Oda has been showing.

I've refuted that point multiple times in this thread there is nothing from what we've been shown that indicates any of the other members of the MT couldn't have done that themselves. 

Sanji never had any ambition back then to become a Pirate he was perfectly content just cooking on Bartie.

Hodi wasn't back on his feet right away he was dead in the water and It took them giving him an ES to wake him up again.

Everyone at Skypiea was taken out by Enel except Luffy due only to this fruit bad example there. 

Anyways I never said Sanji couldn't do that It's about the symbolism Oda is trying too portray with Luffy and Zoro being closer in strength he is to Sanji and the Author's opinion>Our opinion.


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## Kishido (May 10, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Yeah well I don't there that far off It's just when people starting say It's something like "5 Douriki" difference which is absolutely retarded It's clearly bigger then that and it's blatant fanboyism. Not saying you have but other people in this thread have.
> 
> All of those teachers were probably weaker then Ivankov but anyways the point I was trying to make was with the symbolism that Oda has been showing.
> 
> ...



I meant VDD was back at his feet after in an instant. But yeah for symbolism Zoro is often compared to Luffy. But on other hand Sanji and Zoro are always compared with their rivaly to each other.

And even if Sanji had no drive of being a pirate he was trained by a legendary pirate for years while Zoro wasn't. But it means nothing. Same now with the training of Sanji. maybe he had no absolutely top tier trainer but he had still at least 99 masters of them + an horde of people chasing him day and night and he had to fight all the time. He had to do this on his own all the time like Zoro had done in the past, while Sanji was trained by a former GL or even NW pirate.

At the end all 3 of them will stand at the top of the world and of course there will be slight differences and Zoro and Luffy will hold an title as strongest swordsman/pirate king while Sanji will be just be feared as fuck by the marines (Hell he said, someday he will be the most feared man for the marines, even if they don't recognize him much now)

But I'm completey fine with your scale. In my eyes your scale is still close but their are gaps, which is fine. But it doesn't make any of them in a completely different league and each of them would push the other to the limits


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## Butt Hole lol (May 10, 2011)

I just re-read the TB arc. Zoro and Sanji since the beginning up to ending of TB had about similar feats, Sanji may have had the stronger feat by deflecting Oar’s bazooka, but Zoro made up for it by fighting Ryuuma who is ALOT stronger then Abosalam, and deflecting a regular oars punch without Asura. What sealed the deal was the ending of TB the Kuma-Zoro incident. Zoro was the only one who got back up and continued fighting right after ursus shock. When someone as strong as Kuma tells you you’re going to die from taking all that damage, yet you dont that should tell you something. Usually Zoro's feats at TB are downplayed some people, especially the ending part :/

I think the difference is alot bigger than just a mere 5 douriki. Douriki is a flawed system anyway, it doesn’t factor in DFs,Swords/tools, and skills.... which is why it was only used one time during the entire manga and never again.

This is how I would place them in these categories un-biasly based on their showings in the manga: 

Strength: Luffy>Zoro=Sanji
Speed: Luffy (G2)>Zoro=Sanji
Endurance/damage soak: Luffy=Zoro>Sanji
Reaction speed: Luffy=Zoro>Sanji
Fighting style: Luffy=Zoro>Sanji 
Will power/mental strength: Luffy>Zoro>Sanji

anyway im done with this thread, people just keep repeating the same old shit...


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## Coruscation (May 11, 2011)

I really have to disagree with the notion that Sanji could push Luffy "to his limits". That is overrating him in my opinion. It seemed clear to me that Sanji could not have defeated Arlong, and Arlong did not push Luffy that far (if we fairly take Luffy's "limits" to be a Croc / Lucci style battle). The gap between Luffy and Sanji is not huge but it is often underrated even so. Call it "5 Douriki" or say that Sanji could push Luffy to his limits, that's too small either way. It's not that trivial.

I don't really see a problem with Luffy having a bit less than Arlong-difficulty in a hypothetical vs. Sanji fight. That still puts Sanji close to Luffy on a larger scale which is what really should matter. Arlong still gave Luffy a very hard fight, just not one where it wasn't apparent that Luffy was stronger and he won decisively in the end. And yes, I'm aware that I'm the only one who brought Arlong into it, but it's just to get a tangible example of roughly what I see the strength difference as it practice.


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## Kishido (May 11, 2011)

Coruscation said:


> I really have to disagree with the notion that Sanji could push Luffy "to his limits". That is overrating him in my opinion. It seemed clear to me that Sanji could not have defeated Arlong, and Arlong did not push Luffy that far (if we fairly take Luffy's "limits" to be a Croc / Lucci style battle). The gap between Luffy and Sanji is not huge but it is often underrated even so. Call it "5 Douriki" or say that Sanji could push Luffy to his limits, that's too small either way. It's not that trivial.
> 
> I don't really see a problem with Luffy having a bit less than Arlong-difficulty in a hypothetical vs. Sanji fight. That still puts Sanji close to Luffy on a larger scale which is what really should matter. Arlong still gave Luffy a very hard fight, just not one where it wasn't apparent that Luffy was stronger and he won decisively in the end. And yes, I'm aware that I'm the only one who brought Arlong into it, but it's just to get a tangible example of roughly what I see the strength difference as it practice.



OK let me say it this way. Zoro would give Luffy one hell of a fight to the limits and Sanji would give it to Zoro.

But the Arlong thingy si a bit strange. I know what you mean and it is probably right. But to be honest... We will never know how a 100 % sanji or Zoro would do against him. probably still lose but whatever.

But this isn't the topic and I'm out as well


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## Emperor Raizen (May 11, 2011)

Thdyingbreed said:


> So Ace and Smoker aren't the same character and it's an obvious part of Smoker's progression to keep with up Luffy so Luffy's blunt force immunity won't matter anymore.


Yeah, that really doesn't matter. Ace > Smoker. I can see Coby giving Luffy trouble, I can't see Smoker giving trouble, he's trash aside from his Logia.



Thdyingbreed said:


> He did in a Bisento vs Sword clash If it was a full out fight Whitebeard of won. I do have a basis Mihawk's title makes him stronger he is the "World's Strongest Swordsman" stronger then any other until defeated that is a fact. Shanks is a swordsman so therefore Mihawk>Shanks.


Says you, there's nothing confirming Shanks doesn't have a DF. Mihawk > Shanks in terms of SWORDPLAY. Even Vista gave Mihawk a fight. Unless you think: Mihawk = Vista > Shanks > Rayleigh. Shanks isn't the type of guy to use Haki\DF in a sword duel.



Thdyingbreed said:


> The difference Luffy and Zoro were actually close in strength while Usopp is far behind in terms of strength. Yeah but Arlong didn't outright state "I have to kill this man no matter what" like he did with Zoro and you can tell by the look on his face how serious he was. That's you're opinon on it and has Zoro ever stated he wouldn't follow someone who is equal to him?


The problem here being that Zoro's NEVER been as strong as his Captain. And I guess you think Zoro > Luffy because Arlong didn't outright state, "I have to kill this man no matter what" like he did with Zoro against Luffy.



Thdyingbreed said:


> But anyways Zoro and Luffy were equal up until Enies Lobbies and then Luffy surpassed him as I've never argued they were equal after EL just that Zoro and Luffy are closer in strength then he is to Sanji. Sure Luffy would win but not without extremley high difficulty as the gap between the Monster Trio isn't that big.


Hurp. They've never been equals. The Hierachy has always been: Luffy > Zoro = Sanji. Enies Lobby actually didn't change a thing; Base Luffy > Base Zoro = Base Sanji; G2\G3 Luffy > Asura Zoro = DJ Sanji.



Thdyingbreed said:


> If Sanji could of absorbed Zoro's pain why was he knocked out for hours instead of getting right back up a couple of minutes afterwords. But no he gets up hours afterwords Zoro's endurance is greater then Sanji's.


It's called plot device. Just like Zoro managing to knock out Sanji with a single blow that was actually blunt force damage, mein square. Kinda like Majin Vegeta knocking out SSJ2 Goku.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Obviously all of the Strawhats have good teamwork together this was clearly demonstrated in TB and in SA. There rivalary isn't going too get in the way of something as important as saving a Nakama or defeating a villain.


Every major arc like: Little Garden, Enies Lobby, Thriller Bark, Romance Dawn 2.0 proves that Zoro and Sanji are equals.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Yes because taking on = beating someone. Also the fact that It wasn't even Kuma anymore which nerfs him further and Kuma isn't a top tier anyways.






Thdyingbreed said:


> So you think Rayleigh is stronger then Shanks . Rayleigh is obviously strong as hell but he's certainly not as strong as Shanks or Mihawk and as I've said before Mihawk's title makes him stronger then both of them. Mihawk>all other Swordsman until defeated. Deal with it.


Says you. I'd think the right hand of the Pirate King is stronger than somebody like Mihawk who failed to kill a tired G2 Luffy or even fodder like Buggy. Shanks may have surpassed Rayleigh but Shanks > Mihawk anyhow.



Thdyingbreed said:


> Well the arc villains in this Arc are pretty trash and need ES as crutch. Yes and when Zoro one shotted Hodi the Fishman commented on how Zoro was faster then a Fishman in the water and there's nothing going against Zoro being able to use Ashura in the water as well.


Sanji was able to move as fast as a Fishman in their natural element ~7,000 meters under the sea. You can imagine how fast he'd be on land.



Butt Hole lol said:


> Their rivarly or w/e u call it is a gag. It makes things funnier nothing more nothing less. Im not saying Sanji is weak, but just because someone has rivarly (gag) with someone doesnt make them equals, was Garp equal to Roger they had a rivarly, he could fight with him and give a dam good fight but they wernt equals.


Garp and Roger weren't rivals. Newgate and Roger weren't rivals. Because Pirate King Roger is EASILY the strongest character in the series. There's nobody who comes close. Zoro, on the other hand, he isn't even the Top Swordsmen let alone the Pirate King...



Butt Hole lol said:


> Zoro fought a bloodlusted Luffy at whiskey peak and they tied. Then in TB Zoro takes the captains entire damage and he got Shuusia which uped his swordmanship. The DB even says they have equal fighting power and that was released right after EL. So all your points are moot. sorry.


Luffy was holding back, "bloodlusted" or not. Sanji could've soaked Luffy's damage as well and there's nothing you can do to prove otherwise. Sorry, Manga > DB which renders your point moot.



Butt Hole lol said:


> Again Luffy was fucking bloodlusted, he really wanted to kick Zoro's ass back then, and Zoro said he wouldnt hold back. They both went all out this is canon.


[Sarcasm]Like he went all out on Usopp[/sarcasm]



Butt Hole lol said:


> Why am i even argueing with you, your the goof who thinks Ryuma and Brook are on par.


I didn't say that, clown. I just said Absalom > Ryuma based on feats and performance. Ryuma struggled with Brook while Absalom actually hurt even Sanji.



Heroic Trunks said:


> While Jyabura is still standing after one signature DJ kick and only got KOed after a kick in the head which sents him plumming into the ground dozens of meters below.


I guess you're forgetting Jyabura's unique fighting style. Yeah, the one that lets him keep Tekkai always active.



Butt Hole lol said:


> It really simple, the manga dictates: Captain>First Mate(which literaly means vice captain)>Chef it doesnt matter if Sanji is a part of the M3, its just the way it is.


Oh boy. I guess you think Law's a mid-tier or lower in his crew. Because he's the doctor. Note how Luffy's the only Supernova with 2 Supernova-level Officers; it's kinda like how Newgate had the Division Captains. Sanji is still the "Second Mate".


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## Butt Hole lol (May 11, 2011)

Emperor Raizen said:


> Yeah, that really doesn't matter. Ace > Smoker. I can see Coby giving Luffy trouble, I can't see Smoker giving trouble, he's trash aside from his Logia.
> 
> 
> Says you, there's nothing confirming Shanks doesn't have a DF. Mihawk > Shanks in terms of SWORDPLAY. Even Vista gave Mihawk a fight. Unless you think: Mihawk = Vista > Shanks > Rayleigh. Shanks isn't the type of guy to use Haki\DF in a sword duel.
> ...


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## AceBlazer13 (Jan 1, 2013)

sanji=zoro< luffy


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## SsjAzn (Jan 1, 2013)

The gap between Zoro and Sanji is smaller than the difference between Luffy and Zoro.


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## marco55656 (Jan 1, 2013)

Butt Hole lol said:


> I just re-read the TB arc. Zoro and Sanji since the beginning up to ending of TB had about similar feats, Sanji may have had the stronger feat by deflecting Oar?s bazooka, but Zoro made up for it by fighting Ryuuma who is ALOT stronger then Abosalam, and deflecting a regular oars punch without Asura. What sealed the deal was the ending of TB the Kuma-Zoro incident. Zoro was the only one who got back up and continued fighting right after ursus shock. When someone as strong as Kuma tells you you?re going to die from taking all that damage, yet you dont that should tell you something. Usually Zoro's feats at TB are downplayed some people, especially the ending part :/
> 
> I think the difference is alot bigger than just a mere 5 douriki. Douriki is a flawed system anyway, it doesn?t factor in DFs,Swords/tools, and skills.... which is why it was only used one time during the entire manga and never again.
> 
> ...



Strength: Luffy>Zoro=Sanji
Speed: Luffy (G2)=>sanji>Zoro
Endurance/damage soak: Luffy=Zoro>Sanji
Reaction speed: Luffy=Zoro=Sanji
Fighting style: Luffy=Zoro=Sanji 
Will power/mental strength: Luffy>Zoro>Sanji
fixed


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## Dr. White (Jan 1, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> I really have to disagree with the notion that Sanji could push Luffy "to his limits". That is overrating him in my opinion. It seemed clear to me that Sanji could not have defeated Arlong, and Arlong did not push Luffy that far (if we fairly take Luffy's "limits" to be a Croc / Lucci style battle). The gap between Luffy and Sanji is not huge but it is often underrated even so. Call it "5 Douriki" or say that Sanji could push Luffy to his limits, that's too small either way. It's not that trivial.
> 
> I don't really see a problem with Luffy having a bit less than Arlong-difficulty in a hypothetical vs. Sanji fight. That still puts Sanji close to Luffy on a larger scale which is what really should matter. Arlong still gave Luffy a very hard fight, just not one where it wasn't apparent that Luffy was stronger and he won decisively in the end. And yes, I'm aware that I'm the only one who brought Arlong into it, but it's just to get a tangible example of roughly what I see the strength difference as it practice.



The Arlong example is a bad analogy IMO, as even though Zoro was injured disgustingly by Mihawk, Sanji had also gotten injured badly the previous arc, and had his inner anatomy crushed by pressure, and near drowned by Kuroobi. While Zoro was in horrible shape, Sanji was no where near 100%, at 100% he would have been able to give Arlong a mid diff fight *atleast*

Luffy would walk away from a full fledged fight with Sanji with very little energy left. For example if Luffy had to fight Sanji, and won: then right after had to fight another Sanji, the second Sanji would tear him apart with low diff.

 I thinks it's a bias underestimation(no offense) from you to underrate Sanji as such. This argument was a bit credible before Sanji had DJ, and given the benefit of the doubt appliable pre-skip, but post skip is a whole different story. Sanji is steadily showing off better combat skills, with flight, double DJ, Collier Strike, and Hells memories his arsenal is much better off. In a fight vs Luffy Sanji would have a geppou advantage, and speed really isn't a factor between the two(albeit G2 gives better speed in short burst), Sanji's kicks were able to send Vergo flying and bleeding in tekkai mode, and Fire is actually a great counter to Luffy's blunt damage immunity, which is already diluted by Sanji's COA. Sanji isn't going down to anything less than something like Grizzly Magnum, and even then Luffy would be hard pressed to land such a hit, especially now that Sanji can fly. 

To sum up Luffy wins the matchup with nothing short of High difficulty.


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## ZeroWolf123 (Jan 1, 2013)

hugs ass necro


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## Heretic (Jan 2, 2013)

Man, I don't even remember this thread. It made me question the arc difference in strength between the characters. I do generally think one arc later should be significant enough to make a difference to beat the previous arc's higher up, but I think that the end of the day, it depends on the arc's length.

I would argue that the jump in power of say, Sanji, between each of the first four major sagas (EB, BW, SkyP, CP9) is significant to the point where his beginning self would be closer to the weak or maybe middle trio of the group than the monster trio.

EB Sanji
BW Sanji
SkyP Sanji
CP9 Sanji
SA Sanji

I'd say the jump in power between these incarnations are about the same as far as base stats and such increase. And for reference, I'll put who I think is around his level:

EB Sanji ~ SA Usopp/Nami
BW Sanji ~ SA Chopper/Brook/Blueno/EB Luffy
SkyP Sanji ~ Franky/Daz/BW Zoro
CP9 Sanji ~ Ryuuma/SkyP Luffy
SA Sanji ~ Lucci/EL Luffy

In general, I think Luffy and Sanji's incarnations are about an arc apart in strength and that Zoro is between there. I think that Luffy > Zoro > Sanji has two breaks large enough that Luffy can beat Sanji with about mid-high difficulty rather than high diff. Its just like how Chopper can beat Nami or Usopp without all he's got since he's a better combatant.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jan 3, 2013)

Zoro takes both scenarios.

Even with two swords, Zoro was still the one to step up and face Kuma when Luffy was down. That's pretty telling for me.


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## Coruscation (Jan 3, 2013)

He had three swords.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2013)

Zoro does not need three swords to beat Sanji, his one/two sword styles can still fuck him up just fine.

Zoro wins extreme difficulty instead of high like usually.


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## B Rabbit (Jan 3, 2013)

Zoro needs three swords to beat Sanji. 

There not that far apart in strength. Zoro will have a hard time with Sanji.


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## Lycka (Jan 3, 2013)

serious zoro wank mid difficultly? pshhhh. 

sanji both scenarios, scenario 1 mid difficulty when any of m3 trio fight their going to need their best to take each other out post skip espically with inflated power levels.

scenario 2,  sanji high diff, his DJ control improved along with naturally his physical stats.


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## Sanji (Jan 3, 2013)

B Rabbit said:


> Zoro needs three swords to beat Sanji.
> 
> There not that far apart in strength. Zoro will have a hard time with Sanji.



Dis shit right err'


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