# Black Zamasu vs Divine Cloth Bronze Saints



## MajinAyoub (Nov 9, 2016)

This is the fusion being of Black Goku and Zamasu.
Location: Realm of Hades
Bloodlust on
CIS/PIS off

Is Black Zamasu powerful enough to take on the young saints or is the saint's hax enough to fuck over Zamasu?

EDIT: I think that the Divine Saints haxs are a bit too much for the fused god. However, i curiously created this thread to see if the fused being's power is at least comparable to Hades. So I will change the rules a bit. Speed equalized. 
Scenario 1: Each divine bronze saints fight the fused being one-by-one.
Scenario 2: All of the bronze saints fight together.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

I'll go out on a limb and say the Bronze Saints with the Divine Cloth are faster than merged Zamasu. That should give them plenty of time to unleash soul wiping or whatever fuck else they got in their utility belts. Obviously merged Zamasu has no resistance against any of that.

Goes the same way every fight of Saint Seiya vs DB/Z/S goes.


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 9, 2016)

Ikki uses Genma Ken.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> I'll go out on a limb and say the Bronze Saints with the Divine Cloth are faster than merged Zamasu. That should give them plenty of time to unleash *soul wiping* or whatever fuck else they got in their utility belts. Obviously merged Zamasu has no resistance against any of that.
> 
> Goes the same way every fight of Saint Seiya vs DB/Z/S goes.



Since when do the Bronze Saints have that? lol


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

The same story as always. Merged Zamasu has enough power, but lacks speed and hax. So he loses


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> Since when do the Bronze Saints have that? lol


Hence why I said "whatever the fuck else" lol. They probably got something else he can't counter.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Hence why I said "whatever the fuck else" lol. They probably got something else he can't counter.



The only ones that I can think of having some type of hax are Ikki (mindfuck) and Hyoga (Absolute Zero).

The other 3 are basically punching powerhouses.


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## tivanenk (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> The only ones that I can think of having some type of hax are Ikki (mindfuck) and Hyoga (Absolute Zero).
> 
> The other 3 are basically punching powerhouses.



Probably didn't pay attention to stuff like the 7th sense and the 8th sense then.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

tivanenk said:


> Probably didn't pay attention to stuff like the 7th sense and the 8th sense then.



The 7th sense gives them a power-boost and some "immunity" (not exactly that) to senses-removal.

8th sense gives them... what exactly?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> I'll go out on a limb and say the Bronze Saints with the Divine Cloth are faster than merged Zamasu. That should give them plenty of time to unleash soul wiping or whatever fuck else they got in their utility belts. Obviously merged Zamasu has no resistance against any of that.
> 
> Goes the same way every fight of Saint Seiya vs DB/Z/S goes.



If Zamasu's immortality can allow him to survive Beerus destruction hax which would erase him from every timeline he probably has decent resistance to soul hax tbh.


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> If Zamasu's immortality can allow him to survive Beerus destruction hax which would erase him from every timeline he probably has decent resistance to soul hax tbh.



That's not what protected him. It was the time ring. Basically, Present Zamasu is Goku Black, just from a split timeline parallel to the main timeline. The one Beerus attacked died, Goku Black did not, because of the time ring. Nonetheless, Merged Zamasu is an immortal so he isn't at all easy to get rid of.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> The only ones that I can think of having some type of hax are Ikki (mindfuck) and Hyoga (Absolute Zero).
> 
> The other 3 are basically punching powerhouses.


Soul destruction, astral, incorporeal etc etc....
are a basic abilities of saint who mastered 7th sense. heck, Shiryu in Assassins were destroying the Gladiator`s magic. and creating incorporeal weapons mid air


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2016)

On a good day he might be able to take shiryuu shun and possibly seiya.

Immortality goes a long way in dealing with the massive speed disadvantage


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

God Movement said:


> The same story as always. Merged Zamasu has enough power, but lacks speed and hax. So he loses



Seiya with his God Cloth was surviving hits from Hades, not tanking them but surviving a couple strikes there. He doesn't really have anything really hax but he can literally probably just pummel Black Zamasu to death. He did one-shot Thanatos after all casually.


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Seiya with his God Cloth was surviving hits from Hades, not tanking them but surviving a couple strikes there. He doesn't really have anything really hax but he can literally probably just pummel Black Zamasu to death. He did one-shot Thanatos after all casually.



Depends how far into universal Hades is.

Merged Zamasu is a Potara fusion of two universe level characters who by themselves are far above baseline universal anyway.

Merged Zamasu >>> SSJB KKx10 >> SSJB > SSJ > SSJG > Base Goku = universe level (2x volume of regular universe due to Other World)

So I don't think it's a power thing, it's a speed thing. Does Seiya have a way to bypass immortality?


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Depends how far into universal Hades is.
> 
> Merged Zamasu is a Potara fusion of two universe level characters who by themselves are far above baseline universal anyway.
> 
> ...



Hades is an Olympian God who created a dimension and filled it with multiple universes (Elysion, Makai, etc...) that are larger then the real observable universe. God Cloth's Seiya's fist is > Aries Mu's Starlight Extinction which can erase pocket universes which he used to curbstomp Thanatos. And considering we know that burning their Cosmos to the max enables even mortals to harm the immortal bodies of Gods, I'd say Seiya has more then enough to DC to fuck up Zanmasu.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

God cloth seiya should be > Shiryu`s max cosmo who Nullified two Athena Excalamations clashing (which`s multiplier was said to be infinite)


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Hades is an Olympian God who created a dimension and filled it with multiple universes (Elysion, Makai, etc...) that are larger then the real observable universe. God Cloth's Seiya's fist is > Aries Mu's Starlight Extinction which can erase pocket universes. And considering we know that burning their Cosmos to the max enables even mortals to harm the immortal bodies of Gods, I'd say Seiya has more then enough to DC to fuck up Zanmasu.



I mean, that's the point I'm making.

Mu would be a baseline universal. Which would essentially make him at around about the same level DC-wise as Base Goku (the universe is 2x the volume of ours so it's even bigger). The gap between Base Goku and even regular Zamasu is obscene to say the least. In the same vein, God Cloth Seiya is much stronger than Mu. BUT Merged Zamasu would be akin to putting two SSJB Goku's together in a Potara fusion which is why I'm arguing it's not so much a power thing as it may be a hax and speed debate.



SF latif said:


> God cloth seiya should be > Shiryu`s max cosmo who Nullified two Athena Excalamations clashing (which`s multiplier was said to be infinite)



He offset the balance between the two from what I recall.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I mean, that's the point I'm making.
> 
> Mu would be a baseline universal. Which would essentially make him at around about the same level DC-wise as Base Goku (the universe is 2x the volume of ours so it's even bigger). The gap between Base Goku and even regular Zamasu is obscene to say the least. In the same vein, God Cloth Seiya is much stronger than Mu. BUT Merged Zamasu would be akin to putting two SSJB Goku's together in a Potara fusion which is why I'm arguing it's not so much a power thing as it may be a hax and speed debate.



Seiya doesn't have hax techniques. He can simply punch more then Zamasu by a stupid amount. The fact he also could crack Hades surplice doesn't hurt though. If you want to use comparisons though, the gap between God Cloth Seiya is bigger then that with Aries Mu or any other mid tier Gold Saint. He also would powerscale being vastly above Virgo Shaka and Virgo Shijima as far as DC goes.



> He offset the balance between the two from what I recall.



He redirected and sent both AEs into space. It is an outlier given doing it almost killed him and he had to elevate his Cosmos well beyond his normal limits and I remember finding the feat myself kind of contradictory.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Seiya with his God Cloth was surviving hits from Hades, not tanking them but surviving a couple strikes there. He doesn't really have anything really hax but he can literally probably just pummel *Black Zamasu to death.* He did one-shot Thanatos after all casually.


Literally impossible. Dude is immortal.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

God Movement said:


> He offset the balance between the two from what I recall.


No. AEs were nullified inside the temple. that was only in anime where Seiya and co pushed it into Sky and it explodes. this would however, wouldn`t scale to Normal shiryu as he burned his como to it`s peak. god cloth is basically them at thier peak levels.


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> He redirected and sent both AEs into space. It is an outlier given doing it almost killed him and he had to elevate his Cosmos well beyond his normal limits and I remember finding the feat myself kind of contradictory.



Could be a miracle I guess. Or he might just have elevated his Cosmo to his God Cloth levels momentarily. Something like that.



SF latif said:


> No. AEs were nullified inside the temple. that was only in anime where Seiya and co pushed it into Sky and it explodes. this would however, wouldn`t scale to Normal shiryu as he burned his como to it`s peak. god cloth is basically them at thier peak levels.



Like I said, that's just what I recalled. Read the classic like 2 years ago.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 9, 2016)

Akabara Strauss said:


> Ikki uses Genma Ken.


Zamasu's illusion is that he fucks Bulma.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

so basically, what shiryu did is amp his cosmo to it`s highest peak (which could be argued that he some what reached his god cloth power temporary), to Nullfy the energy. god cloth seiya logically be more powerfull than Shiryu. 

(sorry for the low-quality scans, too lazy to get them higher quality)


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Literally impossible. Dude is immortal.



Zanmasu really has nothing on Gods in Saint Seiya when it comes to immortality. So no, its well within the realm of possibility.



God Movement said:


> Could be a miracle I guess. Or he might just have elevated his Cosmo to his God Cloth levels momentarily. Something like that.



Here's the *official* English version anyways:


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

I think it was a miracle. Not an outlier.

The whole theme of the Bronze Saints throughout the classic manga was literally them surpassing their supposed limits time and time again, Hyoga did it to Camus, Seiya did it to Aldebaran, Shiryuu did it here, Shun surpassed the limits of faggotry.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Its not something he can do regularly is my point. Its also worth noting Saga's Cosmos was noted to be "weakened" earlier according to Shaka himself from the ordeals Kanon and Shaka were putting him along Camus and Shura through in the Cancer Temple and Gemini Temple and that the trio were also lacking their five senses and operating well below their full strength and still stalemating Mu, Aiolia, and Milo's AE despite that trio being completely fresh.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

God Movement said:


> I think it was a miracle. Not an outlier.
> 
> The whole theme of the Bronze Saints throughout the classic manga was literally them surpassing their supposed limits time and time again, Hyoga did it to Camus, Seiya did it to Aldebaran, Shiryuu did it here, Shun surpassed the limits of faggotry.


yep. pretty much. Shura was able to surrpass the intial expansion of the universe via burning his cosmo to it`s peak. hence, i only scale these feats to thier god cloth selfs, Normally.


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Its not something he can do regularly is my point. Its also worth noting Saga's Cosmos was noted to be "weakened" earlier according to Shaka himself from the ordeals Kanon and Shaka were putting him along Camus and Shura through in the Cancer Temple and Gemini Temple and that the trio were also lacking their five senses and operating well below their full strength and still stalemating Mu, Aiolia, and Milo's AE despite that trio being completely fresh.



Makes sense since Saga should have universal+ power by himself anyway.



SF latif said:


> yep. pretty much. Shura was able to surrpass the intial expansion of the universe via burning his cosmo to it`s peak. hence, i only scale these feats to thier god cloth selfs, Normally.



That's far more reasonable than what Shiryuu done though. Shura is a Gold Saint, they don't get snowflake priviliges like the Bronze Saints.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

God Movement said:


> That's far more reasonable than what Shiryuu done though. Shura is a Gold Saint, they don't get snowflake priviliges like the Bronze Saints.


well, the point is that this was done at peak cosmo which wouldn`t scale to shiryu`s power Normally, so i`m only scalling it to his god cloth self. which i think is reasonable.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## EGSage (Nov 9, 2016)

Realm of Hades? I guess Zamasu dies from not having the 8th sense xD. 

On-topic any of the Bronze punch him out, he can't kill Seiya, Ikki breaks him, Hyouga leave him in ice that is hundreds of times lower that AZ, Shiryu with Excalibur can null the Dragon Faceless regen who had no physical body and was regenerating from nothing and Shun gives him a good chaining. Also the Saint's OP adaption is going to lolnope Zamasu's abilities.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Zanmasu really has nothing on Gods in Saint Seiya when it comes to immortality. So no, its well within the realm of possibility.


It's Zamasu. Not Zanmasu.

No it's not within the realm of possibility to kill someone who is immortal unless you have an ability to strip that someone of immortality or incapacitate him. You're not beating them by just punching them to death.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Zamasu is Immortal physically. Seiya`s attacks can extend to none physicall beings. so seiya could likely atomize zamasu`s soul if he can`t destroy his physical body.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> Zamasu is Immortal physically. Seiya`s attacks can extend to none physicall beings. so seiya could likely atomize zamasu`s soul if he can`t destroy his physical body.


Last I checked he was immortal period. Not just physically. Would be weird if you could just bypass his immortality especially when, you know, souls aren't exactly something uncommon in Dragon Ball.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Last I checked he was immortal period. Not just physically. Would be weird if you could just bypass his immortality especially when, you know, souls aren't exactly something uncommon in Dragon Ball.


they specifically said that his physicall body is Immortal. nothing was said of his soul being one too, you know?


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> they specifically said that his physicall body is Immortal. nothing was said of his soul being one too, you know?


Did they? I just remember him saying he had wished for immortality. Would be odd for him to wish "make me physically immortal" rather than just making him immortal.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> Soul destruction, astral, incorporeal etc etc....
> are a basic abilities of saint who mastered 7th sense.



What? Since when?



SF latif said:


> heck, Shiryu *in Assassins* were destroying the Gladiator`s magic. and creating incorporeal weapons mid air



AFAIK, Episode G is non-canon.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Did they? I just remember him saying he had wished for immortality. Would be odd for him to wish "make me physically immortal" rather than just making him immortal.


that`s what stated in series, and that`s how they`r potraying it thus far atleast.



Franco said:


> What? Since when?


since 7th sense was interduced



Franco said:


> AFAIK, Episode G is non-canon.


old news. it`s canon. try again

Reactions: Agree 1


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> AFAIK, Episode G is non-canon.



Last I checked it is canon dude.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Last I checked he was immortal period. Not just physically. Would be weird if you could just bypass his immortality especially when, you know, souls aren't exactly something uncommon in Dragon Ball.



Yeah, I agree with this. He became immortal through a wish that was stated to have no limits. If he was vulnerable to soul destruction attacks then it means his wish didn't came true, specially when soul destruction exists in DB (looking at Beerus).


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> that`s what stated in series, and that`s how they`r potraying it thus far atleast.


When was this ever said? Zamasu came back and said he was immortal. Never went into the specifics and never excluded his soul being immortalized as well. I mean if souls weren't so common in DB we could have assumed his immortality didn't extend there but it was said one can be erased permanently from existence if their soul is destroyed. That would literally contradict Zamasu being immortal. Also for some very odd reason, Kaioshins don't appear to have souls like mortals. When mortals get killed their souls go into the afterlife but it never happened to a Kaioshin except when the elder one traded his life with Goku's.

Hell, Beeru's Hakai wipes you out from existence, including the soul. I don't think soul invulnerability should fall outside of the limitations of Zamasu's immortality.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> since 7th sense was interduced



7th sense was never claimed to do any of that.



SF latif said:


> old news. it`s canon. try again





God Movement said:


> Last I checked it is canon dude.



Well, this is a new one, usually around where I go people don't consider it canon (mainly brazillian forums like this one), and personally I don't see it too.

Who knew.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> When was this ever said? Zamasu came back and said he was immortal. Never went into the specifics and never excluded his soul being immortalized as well. I mean if souls weren't so common in DB we could have assumed his immortality didn't extend there but it was said one can be erased permanently from existence if their soul is destroyed. That would literally contradict Zamasu being immortal. Also for some very odd reason, Kaioshins don't appear to have souls like mortals. When mortals get killed their souls go into the afterlife but it never happened to a Kaioshin except when the elder one traded his life with Goku's.
> 
> Hell, Beeru's Hakai wipes you out from existence, including the soul. I don't think soul invulnerability should fall outside of the limitations of Zamasu's immortality.


they alwayse state "immortal body". he was never said to be Immortal entirely ( as in both soul and body). they even state along the line as "Physicall" attacks having no effect on zamasu, implying he is only Immortal physically.

unfortunatly we never saw beerus confornt future zamasu, we don`t know how it`ll tunr out, so at best it`s speculation speculation.



Franco said:


> 7th sense was never claimed to do any of that.


it has been displayed by 7th users dude.



Franco said:


> Well, this is a new one, usually around where I go people don't consider it canon (mainly brazillian forums like this one), and personally I don't see it too.
> 
> Who knew.


that`s because some Brazillians hate the artwork of it, thus don`t want it to be canon. however, it`s been confirmed to be a prequel to original manga and confirmed to be canon.


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## God Movement (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> Well, this is a new one, usually around where I go people don't consider it canon (mainly brazillian forums like this one), and personally I don't see it too.
> 
> Who knew.



It's an officiated prequel basically.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> they alwayse state "immortal body". he was never said to be Immortal entirely ( as in both soul and body). they even state along the line as "Physicall" attacks having no effect on zamasu, implying he is only Immortal physically.
> 
> unfortunatly we never saw beerus confornt future zamasu, we don`t know how it`ll tunr out, so at best it`s speculation speculation.


When exactly? You have to be a bit more specific. "This body is immortal" doesn't mean "But this soul isn't".

Regardless, one has to look at the context. Goku and Vegeta only know how to physically assault someone so of course Zamasu would tell them he is physically invulnerable, not like it'd be relevant to them if his soul was immortal too. I mean do you really think it's logical to assume he specifically wished only for physical immortality?

Second point, Zamasu wished for immortality why would Beerus' Hakai be excluded from the wish? Beerus' abilities clearly do not extend outside the boundaries of Super Shenron's powers, more like the opposite. If Beerus can still kill Zamasu with Hakai then he isn't immortal which is contradictory. Maybe we'll see the limits of his immortality soon but so far there is no logical reason to assume it doesn't extend to the soul, especially when soul destruction and the concept of the soul is pretty common in DB.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> it has been displayed by 7th users dude.



... when? It's as serious question btw.

And even if they did, just because a 7th sense user does it, everyone automatically does as well?

Does Vegetto have Buu-like regeneration or something just because is Ki-related?



SF latif said:


> that`s because some Brazillians hate the artwork of it, thus don`t want it to be canon. however, it`s been confirmed to be a prequel to original manga and confirmed to be canon.



Nah, not really, it's mainly because there are major contradictions between Ep G and the original manga.

(But yeah, the artwork is also atrocious)

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> When exactly? You have to be a bit more specific.


here zamasu himself specifically stating his "Body" was able to attain immortality. and we don`t exactly know how future zamasu`s whish was made: could be only that he whished for his body to be immortall, not entirely




Juub said:


> Regardless, one has to look at the context. Goku and Vegeta only know how to physically assault someone so of course Zamasu would tell them he is physically invulnerable, not like it'd be relevant to them if his soul was immortal too.


could be. however, like i said, going off statements zamasu`s body gained immortality. he is not Immortal entirely. it`s a vague atm.



Juub said:


> Second point, Zamasu wished for immortality why would Beerus' Hakai be excluded from the wish? Beerus' abilities clearly do not extend outside the boundaries of Super Shenron's powers, more like the opposite. If Beerus can still kill Zamasu with Hakai then he isn't immortal which is contradictory. Maybe we'll see the limits of his immortality soon but so far there is no logical reason to assume it doesn't extend to the soul especially when soul destruction and the concept as a soul is pretty common in DB.


we don`t know how he wished for it. you know, it depends on how he words the whish?
secondly: like i said, we don`t know if it`ll truely work on future zamasu or not because they never confronted each other. if anything beerus was confident on killing future zamasu "easily" as he said. so we`r going off vague information here



Franco said:


> ... when? It's as serious question btw.
> 
> And even if they did, just because a 7th sense user does it, everyone automatically does as well?
> 
> Does Vegetto have Buu-like regeneration or something just because is Ki-related?


nice association fallacy there bud. every 7th sense users have displayed there feats. even a newbie like aiolia in the beggining of episode G was destroying incorporeals. so it`s only fair to assume seiya (who`s more matured right now) will be able to do these kinds of feats.



Franco said:


> Nah, not really, it's mainly because there are major contradictions between Ep G and the original manga.
> 
> (But yeah, the artwork is also atrocious)


No. there aren`t any "Major" contradictions.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> nice association fallacy there bud. every 7th sense users have displayed there feats. even a newbie like aiolia in the beggining of episode G was destroying incorporeals. so it`s only fair to assume seiya (who`s more matured right now) will be able to do these kinds of feats.



"Even a newbie like Freeza could use Kienzan, so everyone else also can"



SF latif said:


> No. there aren`t any "Major" contradictions.



> Cronos is the non-corporeal father of Zeus in ND
> Cronos is the corporeal father of Zeus in Episode G
> No major contradictions

Seems right

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> here zamasu himself specifically stating his "Body" was able to attain immortality. and we don`t exactly know how future zamasu`s whish was made: could be only that he whished for his body to be immortall, not entirely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well yeah, "this body of mine was able to attain immortality" refers to him from a different timeline because Beerus had killed off the other one which was not able to attain immortality. It's a fan translation anyway. For all we know he may have said "this version" or something along those lines.

As it stands unless we have evidence that his immortality only includes the physical body, there is no reason to assume he is only immortal physically. Especially given the fact destroying a soul isn't exactly a foreign concept in DB.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> "Even a newbie like Freeza could use Kienzan, so everyone else also can"


you have to be more specific



Franco said:


> > Cronos is the non-corporeal father of Zeus in ND
> > Cronos is the corporeal father of Zeus in Episode G
> > No major contradictions
> 
> Seems right


Chronos from ND is the Primodial god of time and Cronus from Episode G is a titan god
man you need to step up you`r saint seiya information 



Juub said:


> Well yeah, "this body of mine was able to attain immortality" refers to him from a different timeline because Beerus had killed off the other one which was not able to attain immortality. It's a fan translation anyway. For all we know he may have said "this version" or something along those lines.
> 
> As it stands unless we have evidence that his immortality only includes the physical body, there is no reason to assume he is only immortal physically. Especially given the fact destroying a soul isn't exactly a foreign concept in DB.


do you have a translation that states otherwise then? and future zamasu =//= zamasu from goku`s timeline. two diffrent beings bro.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 9, 2016)

I feel it's necessary to point out Zamasu's immortality is very likely what saved him from the after effects of Beerus erasing his younger self from existence. The time ring only protected Black as he was the one wearing it. So yeah, pretty safe to say Zamasu's immortality extends to more than just his body.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> you have to be more specific
> 
> 
> Chronos from ND is the Primodial god of time and Cronus from Episode G is a titan god
> ...


No but they clearly aren't the same body because one is dead and the other isn't.

Also the way it is worded "this body of mine was ABLE to attain immortality" makes it obvious that his other body wasn't able to obtain immortality. It's not like he said he was able to attain immortality for his body. Last thing if we assumed that he meant only physical immortality which would be completely stupid, the way the sentence is phrased makes it seem like the body alone went out and wished for immortality which doesn't even make sense.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> No but they clearly aren't the same body because one is dead and the other isn't.
> 
> Also the way it is worded "this body of mine was ABLE to attain immortality" makes it obvious that his other body wasn't able to obtain immortality. It's not like he said he was able to attain immortality for his body. Last thing if we assumed that he meant only physical immortality which would be completely stupid, the way the sentence is phrased makes it seem like the body alone went out and wished for immortality which doesn't even make sense.


why are you even mixing up future zamasu with the one beerus killed?

black only survived because of time-ring. and all i`m saying is thats what`s been stated and thats how they`r potraying his immortality thus far. we`r assuming his soul is immortall aswell whiout any evidence pointing it here. future zamasu has never encounter people whom`s attack can extend to none-physicall beings. hell, beerus said he could easily kill future zamasu despite being told about his immortality. who we know has soul destruction.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> It's Zamasu. Not Zanmasu.
> 
> No it's not within the realm of possibility to kill someone who is immortal unless you have an ability to strip that someone of immortality or incapacitate him. You're not beating them by just punching them to death.



Yes they are. Saints in Saint Seiya can affect Gods who have lived for billions of years, destroy souls, remove senses, destroy the mind, create literal miracles and so on. Intangibility, incorporeality, spirits, souls, and so on can be fucked up. Saga was making Kronos/Cronos bleed and he was literally trapped in his astral form as a spirit.

That's the power of Cosmos and how the 7th Sense operates. You are insane if you think Gods in Dragon Ball are comparable to beings who can not only create and manipulate matter and energy but also life itself with the 9th Sense aka the Big Will.

Seiya harmed Hades' true fucking body despite him wearing his Surplice.



Franco said:


> What? Since when?



Since always.



> AFAIK, Episode G is non-canon.



Wrong. Episode G and Episode G - Assassin are both canon, always have been and always will be.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> you have to be more specific



What?



SF latif said:


> Chronos from ND is the Primodial god of time and Cronus from Episode G is a titan god
> man you need to step up you`r saint seiya information




"Father of Zeus!"


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> > Cronos is the non-corporeal father of Zeus in ND



Wrong god. CHRONOS is the Primordial God of Time. Kronos/Cronos is the father of Zeus, Hades, and Posideon and the son of Uranus, another Primordial God. They have always been two completely distinct and different Gods in Greek mythology. 

Strike #1.



> > Cronos is the corporeal father of Zeus in Episode G



Cronos/Kronos is the son of Gaia and Uranus and the King of the Titans, a third generation God. Chronos is the God of Time and has no relation to the Titans or the Olympians and is a first generation God.

Strike #2



> > No major contradictions
> 
> Seems right



You have no idea what you are talking about: strike #3.

Seems about right.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2016)

Unless Gods in Saint Seiya are immortal in the sense that they cannot be straight up killed as opposed to having indefinite life cycles, you're kind of comparing apples to oranges.

Zamasu's immortality prevented his existence (context suggests this also includes his soul) from getting erased across time and space and can't physically be killed by (at least for the moment) characters up to a certain power level.


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> beerus said he could easily kill future zamasu despite being told about his immortality. who we know has soul destruction.



Who we've known for a while has sealing techniques and has never been shown fighting all out.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Show immortality in Dragon Ball protecting the soul from soul based attacks.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Wrong god. CHRONOS is the Primordial God of Time. Kronos/Cronos is the father of Zeus, Hades, and Posideon and the son of Uranus, another Primordial God. They have always been two *completely distinct and different Gods in Greek mythology.[*



I know that you stupid fuck, but Kurumada just put his ass where the head should be and made both of them the same fucking character. See what I posted above.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Show immortality in Dragon Ball protecting the soul from soul based attacks.





Adamant soul said:


> I feel it's necessary to point out Zamasu's immortality is very likely what saved him from the after effects of Beerus erasing his younger self from existence. The time ring only protected Black as he was the one wearing it. So yeah, pretty safe to say Zamasu's immortality extends to more than just his body.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> I know that you stupid fuck, but *Kurumada just put his ass where the head should be and made both of them the same fucking character*. See what I posted above.



He never did that.


That has nothing to do with attacks that target the soul.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> What?


you have to be more specific than "Even a newbie like Freeza could use Kienzan, so everyone else also can"



Sablés said:


> Who we've known for a while has sealing techniques and has never been shown fighting all out.


i know he has sealing techniques, thank you for telling me the abvious. however, beerus didn`t say he would defeat zamasu, rather outright "destroy" him. probable with his soul fuck attack.


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2016)

Beerus' Hakai  removed present zamasu from existence in all timelines, this must include the soul or else its pointless since we've seen Kais (like king kai) can just return after death with their bodies in tact and have kai kai to travel through the universes.

The context suggests Zamasu was GONE period. That's pretty much all I have to say since these threads never turn out too great. Rest of you can debate it.


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> i know he has sealing techniques, thank you for telling me the abvious. however, beerus didn`t say he would defeat zamasu, rather outright "destroy" him. probable with his soul fuck attack.


Clearly not since I also said we've never seen Beerus' full potential and Beerus already destroyed Zamasu's soul in the present but couldn't do shit to him in the future.

If he has some way to kill an immortal, we wouldn't even know _how so _thanks for jumping the gun and making asinine assumptions.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> why are you even mixing up future zamasu with the one beerus killed?
> 
> black only survived because of time-ring. and all i`m saying is thats what`s been stated and thats how they`r potraying his immortality thus far. we`r assuming his soul is immortall aswell whiout any evidence pointing it here. future zamasu has never encounter people whom`s attack can extend to none-physicall beings. hell, beerus said he could easily kill future zamasu despite being told about his immortality. who we know has soul destruction.


I specifically said they aren't the same so how am I mixing him them up? Zamasu had been destroyed by Beerus but obtained the time ring as Black in order to prevent himself from being killed off in all timelines. "This body" refers to Zamasu himself, not Black who isn't immortal. "This body is immortal" is completely different from "I am physically immortal". By fucking around with time there are alternate versions of Zamasu so by "this body" he simply meant the body currently talking to you is immortal. Not that his immortality only extends to his body.

We actually cannot assume his immortality doesn't extend to the soul because the soul is a known concept in DB and it has been demonstrated it can be erased/destroyed. We cannot assume Super Shenron's abilities don't cover something that is widely known. He is immortal according to the limitations of Super Shenron and Dragon Ball which includes the soul. If it doesn't then that means Beerus could casually kill Zamasu with Hakai and Zamasu would be a complete and utter idiot to wish solely for physical immortality when Beerus showed he could do more than just affect the physical body.



Fang said:


> Yes they are. Saints in Saint Seiya can affect Gods who have lived for billions of years, destroy souls, remove senses, destroy the mind, create literal miracles and so on. Intangibility, incorporeality, spirits, souls, and so on can be fucked up. Saga was making Kronos/Cronos bleed and he was literally trapped in his astral form as a spirit.


You said Seiya could just punch him to death which I retorted wouldn't work because you cannot punch an immortal being until he dies. He may be able to incapacitate him but not outright kill him unless he can somehow strip him of his immortality.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> He never did that.





That or somehow Cronos (the Titan) fucked time (quite literally) and had a baby.



SF latif said:


> you have to be more specific than "Even a newbie like Freeza could use Kienzan, so everyone else also can"



Using a better example:

Even a shitty Ki user like Freeza could use the Kienzan (and yes, that is said about him in the arc), so everybody else that has as least a better control also can?


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Where is there any indication that establishes he has a lower limit of preventing a present incarnation of himself having his soul destroyed?


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Sablés said:


> Clearly not since I also said we've never seen Beerus' full potential and Beerus already destroyed Zamasu's soul in the present.
> 
> If he has some way to kill an immortal, we wouldn't even know _how so _thanks for jumping the gun and making asinine assumptions.


so basically you`r speculating stuff that never occurred? gotcha



Franco said:


> Using a better example:
> 
> Even a shitty Ki user like Freeza could use the Kienzan (and yes, that is said about him in the arc), so everybody else that has as least a better control also can?


that`s Ki manipulation, which everyone in the series can. had anybody whit a basic ki control done such thing (like saint seiya has over and over), then you would have a point.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> That or somehow Cronos (the Titan) fucked time (quite literally) and had a baby.



1. Your link doesn't work.
2. Cronos instictively can manipulate time, that doesn't make them the same character still
3. What the fuck are you talking about with babies?



Juub said:


> We actually cannot assume his immortality doesn't extend to the soul because the soul is a known concept in DB and it has been demonstrated it can be erased/destroyed. We cannot assume Super Shenron's abilities don't cover something that is widely known. He is immortal according to the limitations of Super Shenron and Dragon Ball which includes the soul.
> 
> You said Seiya could just punch him to death which I retorted wouldn't work because you cannot punch an immortal being until he dies. He may be able to incapacitate him but not outright kill him.



Soul attacks have been never been used or conceptualized as an offensive technique in Dragon Ball before. Yes, Seiya punched and harmed Hades. Because if you think Zamasu compares to Hades at all you are daft.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

>holy shit he's posting ND scans which explicitly state CHRONOS and trying to pass it off as Episode G


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> 1. Your link doesn't work.
> 2. Cronos instictively can manipulate time, that doesn't make them the same character still
> 3. What the fuck are you talking about with babies?
> 
> ...


Beerus' Hakai erases one from existence. You don't go to the afterlife if he uses it. So yes soul attacks have been used in Dragon Ball. A couple of episodes ago.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Beerus' Hakai erases one from existence. You don't go to the afterlife if he uses it. So yes soul attacks have been used in Dragon Ball. A couple of episodes ago.



That doesn't contradict my point, learn to read.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> That doesn't contradict my point, learn to read.


So he's gonna keep punching an immortal being until they die?


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> So he's gonna keep punching an immortal being until they die?



He can literally destroy Zamasu's soul with his punches is what he's going to do.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> 1. Your link doesn't work.
> 2. Cronos instictively can manipulate time, that doesn't make them the same character still
> 3. What the fuck are you talking about with babies?



The link is .

It clearly says "father of Zeus".



Fang said:


> >holy shit he's posting ND scans which explicitly state CHRONOS and trying to pass it off as Episode G



... what the fuck are you even talking about? When did I say it was a Episode G scan? lmao

I'm saying that *in Episode G* Cronos appears as a corporeal being, and is described as fucking "father of Zeus".

In ND (made by Kurumada himself) Chronos appears *like a non-corporeal being* and... gucking guess it: "Father of Zeus".


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> He can literally destroy Zamasu's soul with his punches is what he's going to do.


Zamasu's immortality should extend to his soul as well.

>Beerus' Hakai destroyed Zamasu' soul.
>Zamasu wished for immortality.

Unless of course you think for some odd reason Zamasu's wish for immortality wouldn't cover attacks by Beerus who had killed him moments before he made the wish. If not then Seiya keeps punching until the end of times.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> I specifically said they aren't the same so how am I mixing him them up? Zamasu had been destroyed by Beerus but obtained the time ring as Black in order to prevent himself from being killed off in all timelines. "This body" refers to Zamasu himself, not Black who isn't immortal. "This body is immortal" is completely different from "I am physically immortal". By fucking around with time there are alternate versions of Zamasu so by "this body" he simply meant the body currently talking to you is immortal. Not that his immortality only extends to his body.
> 
> We actually cannot assume his immortality doesn't extend to the soul because the soul is a known concept in DB and it has been demonstrated it can be erased/destroyed. We cannot assume Super Shenron's abilities don't cover something that is widely known. He is immortal according to the limitations of Super Shenron and Dragon Ball which includes the soul. If it doesn't then that means Beerus could casually kill Zamasu with Hakai and Zamasu would be a complete and utter idiot to wish solely for physical immortality when Beerus showed he could do more than just affect the physical body.


Present Zamasu is Goku Black, just from a split timeline to the main timeline. The one Beerus "Hakai" died, Goku Black did not, because of the time ring. future zamasu is from a whole diffrent world/timeline, as specifically stated by trunks and beerus seemingly agreed with him. so beerus`s attacks can extend so far is what i`m saying.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> The link is .
> 
> It clearly says "father of Zeus".



Link still doesn't work.



> ... what the fuck are you even talking about? When did I say it was a Episode G scan? lmao



Scroll up, nonsensical one.



> I'm saying that *in Episode G* Cronos appears as a corporeal being, and is described as fucking "father of Zeus".



He is the father of Zeus.



> In ND (made by Kurumada himself) Chronos appears *like a non-corporeal being* and... gucking guess it: "Father of Zeus".



That was written by the editors, not Kuramada. On top of that, the Japanese have frequently mistaken CRONOS with CHRONOS. Hence why the very next chapter there is no relation in the manga written by Kuramada between the GOD OF TIME CHRONOS and OLYMPIAN ZEUS.

You are not smart.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Zamasu's immortality should extend to his soul as well.



No it shouldn't.



> Unless of course you think for some odd reason Zamasu's wish for immortality wouldn't cover attacks by Beerus who had killed him moments before he made the wish. If not then Seiya keeps punching until the end of times.



All it showed was Beers killing every version of Zamasu save the one who was protected by the time ring in another timeline. The fact Beers can use more exotic powers then outright pure destructive force is indication Seiya can do the same shit to him. So no, Seiya will beat his soul to death and atomize it.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> Present Zamasu is Goku Black, just from a split timeline to the main timeline. The one Beerus "Hakai" died, Goku Black did not, because of the time ring. future zamasu is from a whole diffrent world/timeline, as specifically stated by trunks and beerus seemingly agreed with him. so beerus`s attacks can extend so far is what i`m saying.


But that's exactly what I'm saying lol. Future Zamasu hasn't got the same body as the one Beerus Hakai'd which is why he said "this body was able to obtain immortality". Future Zamasu obtained immortality, not Black nor past Zamasu. "This body" refers to the entity standing before you. It doesn't mean the immortality is merely physical. Zamasu made the immortality wish in a different timeline.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> No it shouldn't.


Why not? The soul as a concept was established in early DB. Why would you assume Zamasu's soul not to be immortal when it was said in the Buu Saga destroying a soul removes one from existence completely? You don't think Zamasu's wish would protect him against that? Further more, Beerus' Hakai destroys the soul so you think Zamasu went out and made a wish that does not cover the guy who just killed him?


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Link still doesn't work.



ORLY



Fang said:


> Scroll up, nonsensical one.



Quote where I said it was a Episode G scan.



Fang said:


> He is the father of Zeus.



Both characters (from Episode G *and* Next Dimension) are "the Father of Zeus".



Fang said:


> That was written by the editors, not Kuramada.



*ORLY*.

Now it's the editors fault that "Kurumada himself" called *both* the Gods of Time and *both* "father of Zeus". Yeah, good way to pull one out of your ass.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> But that's exactly what I'm saying lol. Future Zamasu hasn't got the same body as the one Beerus Hakai'd which is why he said "this body was able to obtain immortality". Future Zamasu obtained immortality, not Black nor past Zamasu. "This body" refers to the entity standing before you. It doesn't mean the immortality is merely physical. Zamasu made the immortality wish in a different timeline.


which beerus agreed to what trunks had explained to him that his powers can`t effect a entirely separate timelines. only those which are splite of the said timeline. wait till we actually see beerus fight merged zamasu who still has his immortality and see what happens.

and i would also like to point out that the reason that japanese got Chronos and titan cronus mixed up because both are written identically, as クロノス). in next chapters you literally see no intractions between him and any olympian gods. and artimis pretty much said chronos is the strongest god. he wouldn`t be if it was titan cronus because zeus would have already defeated him.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Why not? The soul as a concept was established in early DB. Why would you assume Zamasu's soul not to be immortal when it was said in the Buu Saga destroying a soul removes one from existence completely? You don't think Zamasu's wish would protect him against that? Further more, Beerus' Hakai destroys the soul so you think Zamasu went out and made a wish that does not cover the guy who just killed him?



Because you're abusing a no limits fallacy argument. Beers was shown destroying him, "immortality" package included save for one version that was protected from the normal rules thanks to the time ring. Saints can literally atomize souls, so go ahead and put up proof or its just another text book ad naseum repeat from you of butting your nose into a match up involving Saint Seiya characters while you have no real idea what you are talking about.

Cosmos destroys souls, including those who have attained immortality as well so I'm not buying that shit saving Zamasu.



Franco said:


> ORLY



Yep.



> Quote where I said it was a Episode G scan.



Scroll up.



> Both characters (from Episode G *and* Next Dimension) are "the Father of Zeus".



Nope. Only Cronos/Kronos is. 

*



			ORLY
		
Click to expand...

*


> .



Yeah, troll kun.



> Now it's the editors fault that "Kurumada himself" called *both* the Gods of Time and *both* "father of Zeus". Yeah, good way to pull one out of your ass.



The text that describes "Chronos" as the "father of Zeus" isn't written by Kuramada. Those are previews and subtext that frequent manga publications are done by the publication staff editors, not the mangaka themselves. Also why is it the next chapter when Chronos identifies Athena as the daughter of Zeus, yet says nothing indicating any shared bloodline with her or Zeus? Then he directly is also stated not to be a member or relation of the 12 Olympians? Why is it he never makes any mention or reference to being the father of Zeus and is directly called a Primordial God by Hectate?

You're full of it.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> which beerus agreed to what trunks had explained to him that his powers can`t effect a entirely separate timelines. only those which are splite of the said timeline. wait till we actually see beerus fight merged zamasu who still has his immortality and see what happens.


But I'm not arguing Future Zamasu survived Hakai because of his immortality. I'm arguing that future Zamasu, present Zamasu(who got Hakai'd) and Black aren't the same body. That's why future Zamasu said "This body is immortal". He's refering to the body standing before you, the one that wished for immortality. Present Zamasu and Black are NOT immortal but they are still Zamasu with a different body than future Zamasu hence why "This body" doesn't apply to them.



Fang said:


> Because you're abusing a no limits fallacy argument. Beers was shown destroying him, "immortality" package included save for one version that was protected from the normal rules thanks to the time ring. Saints can literally atomize souls, so go ahead and put up proof or its just another text book ad naseum repeat from you of butting your nose into a match up involving Saint Seiya characters while you have no real idea what you are talking about.


I'm not even arguing about Saint Seiya so I don't know what you're on. I let you tell me what they can do and take your word for it. I can only argue what is going on in DB.

Yeah Beerus destroyed a Zamasu who was not yet immortal.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Also funny how Artemis never says anything about Zeus being the son of Chronos or Chronos being part of their family. All in the actual chapters written by Kuramada and not the preview or subtitles for current or next chapter subtext by the editorial staff.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Cosmos destroys souls, including those who have attained immortality as well so I'm not buying that shit saving Zamasu.


So suddenly we're gonna apply Saint Seiya rules to Dragon Ball? Can you show a scan of an immortal soul being destroyed? Kinda curious about it.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> But I'm not arguing Future Zamasu survived Hakai because of his immortality. I'm arguing that future Zamasu, present Zamasu(who got Hakai'd) and Black aren't the same body. That's why future Zamasu said "This body is immortal". He's refering to the body standing before you, the one that wished for immortality. Present Zamasu and Black are NOT immortal but they are still Zamasu with a different body than future Zamasu hence why "This body" doesn't apply to them.


i`m not really getting what you`r trying to say here man 
but so far this is what i got (correct me on this if i`m wrong)is that your saying, Future zamasu is immortal, and present zamasu (the one beerus killed) isn`t. so future zamasu is Immortal right? if so that`s what we`r arguing tho. future zamasu has immortal body (as stated by himself) but we don`t know the extend of it


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 9, 2016)

You know right this match is not fair knowing DB universe lack hax power vs Saint Seiya universe have hax power .

It will better Hax vs Hax , Power vs Power not Power vs Hax knowing because Hax have more chance to win than Power.

Seiya vs DB must be banned knowing this match is not fair because one verse have more hax vs one verse lack of hax


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> *So suddenly we're gonna apply Saint Seiya rules to Dragon Ball?* Can you show a scan of an immortal soul being destroyed? Kinda curious about it.



It works with equivalance, always has and always will. And Shaka killed all of the Specters invading the Virgo Temple despite the gift of immortality Hades gave them and also sealed their powers into his rosary beads.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> i`m not really getting what you`r trying to say here man
> but so far this is what i got (correct me on this if i`m wrong)is that your saying, Future zamasu is immortal, and present zamasu (the one beerus killed) isn`t. so future zamasu is Immortal right? if so that`s what we`r arguing tho. future zamasu has immortal body (as stated by himself) but we don`t know the extend of it


Yeah exactly. What I mean is this:

Present Zamasu is NOT immortal. He got Hakai'd by Beerus.
Black is not immortal.
Future Zamasu is immortal.

All of them are essentially Zamasu but Black has Goku's body and present Zamasu is not immortal. That's why future Zamasu said "this body has obtained immortality". The other Zamasu was not able to and Black has got a different body altogether. Thus "this body" refers to ONLY future Zamasu's person. Not merely his physical body.

One of the major reason Zamasu wished for immortality is because of the Gods of Destruction who showed the ability to wipe out souls and physical bodies. I'm arguing future Zamasu should have an invulnerable soul because he made the wish AFTER Beerus killed him. It would be completely and utterly stupid of him to make that wish and not have it cover the abilities of someone who killed him before. Not only that but considering the soul is an established and known concept in DB, it'd be dumb not to assume Super Shenron's abilities wouldn't extend to it. I mean if it was some foreign or alien concept there would be an argument but it's been around since early DB.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Scroll up.



Yeah, totally get the easy way out ("find it yourself!!!") after writing shit and realizing you're wrong.



Fang said:


> Nope. Only Cronos/Kronos is.



Yeah, because your delusion completely changes what Kurumada wrote.



Fang said:


> Yeah, troll kun.



> Says that I tried to pass a ND scan as a Episode G scan
> Doesn't get the quote where I said that

Clearly, I'm the troll here.



Fang said:


> The text that describes "Chronos" as the "father of Zeus" isn't written by Kuramada. Those are previews and subtext that frequent manga publications are done by the publication staff editors, not the mangaka themselves.



Since when? AFAIK the authors themselves choose what to put in the last line of the chapters.



			
				Fang said:
			
		

> Also why is it the next chapter when Chronos identifies Athena as the daughter of Zeus, yet says nothing indicating any shared bloodline with her or Zeus?



Athena is not even a normal-made being, she was born by the *thoughs* of Zeus.

And Chronos (the embodiment of time) is usually called "Father Time", while Cronos (Zeus' father) is called *God of Time* (which he is called multiple times in ND) ,  and  just to name a few.



			
				Fang said:
			
		

> Then he directly is also stated not to be a member or relation of the 12 Olympians?



... because he doesn't?

Cronos isn't a member of the 12 Olympians, but is called "a *GOD* beyond them", not that there isn't any relationship ().



			
				Fang said:
			
		

> Why is it he never makes any mention or reference to being the father of Zeus and is directly called a Primordial God by Hectate?



Because reasons. For the same reason why Artemis never says she is Zeus' daughter?

Hectate never calls him a primordial god.



			
				Fang said:
			
		

> You're full of it.



You're a complete retard, JFC.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> It works with equivalance, always has and always will. And Shaka killed all of the Specters invading the Virgo Temple despite the gift of immortality Hades gave them and also sealed their powers into his rosary beads.


So how does that work exactly? What takes precedence? Obviously they aren't immortal since Shaka killed them lol. Can you show provide a scan of their immortality? Also since they got killed, doesn't their immortality only extend aging?

Also, does your debate with Franco even matters? What are you even arguing about.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Franco said:


> Yeah, totally get the easy way out ("find it yourself!!!") after writing shit and realizing you're wrong.



Nope.



> Yeah, because your delusion completely changes what Kurumada wrote.



Those annotations are written by the editors, not by the mangaka/authors. It has always been that way in any manga publication work be it Weekly, Monthly, or Ultra Jump, Shonen Red, and so on.

Burdens on you.



> > Says that I tried to pass a ND scan as a Episode G scan
> > Doesn't get the quote where I said that
> 
> Clearly, I'm the troll here.



You indeed are.



> Since when? AFAIK the authors themselves choose what to put in the last line of the chapters.



No they don't. Those are annotations and previews written by the editors and their staff.



> Athena is not even a normal-made being, she was born by the *thoughs* of Zeus.



No she isn't. We only know that Athena, Artemis, and Apollo are Zeus' children and nothing has ever been stated in Saint Seiya of how they were born only that Hera is their mother as much as Zeus is their father. The actual Greek origins is not shared in Saint Seiya.



> And Chronos (the embodiment of time) is usually called "Father Time", while Cronos (Zeus' father) is called *God of Time* (which he is called multiple times in ND) ,  and  just to name a few.



Chronos is the Primordial God of Time. He has no relationship with the Olympians or Titans other then being an elder God that precedes them and represents the concept of time.
Cronos/Kronos is the father of Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon. He is the King of the Titans and the son of Uranus and Gaia, Gaia (Earth/world) created her husband Uranus (sky) and the other three Primordial Gods like Pontos (sea), Ourea (mountains), and Erebus (darkness).

Chronos has no relationship to Zeus. In the manga he explicitly knows Athena is the daughter of Zeus but doesn't identify himself as being related to Zeus or the Olympians.



> ... because he doesn't?



Because Chronos isn't, Cronos is. They are two separate entities.



> Cronos isn't a member of the 12 Olympians, but is called "a *GOD* beyond them", not that there isn't any relationship ().



Cronos was never a member of the Olympians either, he was a member of the Titans. Chronos is not a member of either and has no relationship with the Titans or Olympians.



> Because reasons. For the same reason why Artemis never says she is Zeus' daughter?



She identifies her as her sister, same with Apollo being her brother. Funny how that never happens on either party with Chronos with Zeus except by annotation writer by an editor.



> You're a complete retard, JFC.



Nope. But keep flaming, dupe kun.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> So how does that work exactly? What takes precedence? Obviously they aren't immortal since Shaka killed them lol. Can you show provide a scan of their immortality? Also since they got killed, doesn't their immortality only extend aging?
> 
> Also, does your debate with Franco even matters? What are you even arguing about.



Being immortal won't save you from being killed if someone has more Cosmos or pulls a miracle. DBS doesn't have shit against soul attacks that Saint Sieya does.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Being immortal won't save you from being killed if someone has more Cosmos or pulls a miracle. DBS doesn't have shit against soul attacks that Saint Sieya does.


Cosmos doesn't exist in DBS. I suppose Cosmos=Ki?

Then these guys aren't immortal period if there is a way to kill them. The definition of immortality is very clear. Don't even know why we're arguing.


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## Franco (Nov 9, 2016)

I give up, jesus.

The guy's just like a pigeon playing fucking chess.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Cosmos doesn't exist in DBS. I suppose Cosmos=Ki?



Do you not understand how equivalence works?



> Then these guys aren't immortal period if there is a way to kill them. The definition of immortality is very clear. Don't even know why we're arguing.



Except you can bypass immortality by destroying the soul or mind or simply attaining a higher level of divine power in Saint Seiya.



Franco said:


> I give up, jesus.
> 
> The guy's just like a pigeon playing fucking chess.



Stay salty.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Do you not understand how equivalence works?


I assume you mean equivalent energies or concepts? Like Ki=Chakra=Cosmos? If it's not that then no.





> Except you can bypass immortality by destroying the soul


Which Zamasu has protection against which I already covered.



> simply attaining a higher level of divine power *in Saint Seiya.*


No idea how that would apply to DB. If immortality can bypassed then you know, it isn't immortality. Otherwise everyone is immortal until they come across someone stronger than them.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 9, 2016)

Someone Lock This Threat.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> I assume you mean equivalent energies or concepts? Like Ki=Chakra=Cosmos? If it's not that then no.



That's not what I said.



> Which Zamasu has protection against which I already covered.



No, he doesn't. Because when Seiya destroys his soul, the time ring won't do shit to save him.



> No idea how that would apply to DB. If immortality can bypassed then you know, it isn't immortality. Otherwise everyone is immortal until they come across someone stronger than them.



That's not how it works because immortals have been killed in Saint Seiya. And these Gods are all vastly older then the ones in Dragon Ball. The kind of Gods who can create universes, restore life or remove dead and turn them back to the living, recreate a person's body, and so on. Seiya wounded Hades' immortal body. Athena killed Hades.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> That's not what I said.


Then what does it mean?





> No, he doesn't. Because when Seiya destroys his soul, the time ring won't do shit to save him.


He does unless stated otherwise. Hakai destroys the soul. Zamasu made the immortality wish after Beerus destroyed him. You think he'd be dumb enough to merely wish for physical immortality? Cause Beerus could just come back and erase him again. I mean if Super Shenron had limited knowledge of the universe and the soul was some kind of esoteric concept then you'd be onto something but it's not the case. If Beerus can still destroy Zamasu then he isn't immortal which makes Zamasu an idiot and Super Shenron incompetent.





> That's not how it works because immortals have been killed in Saint Seiya. And these Gods are all vastly older then the ones in Dragon Ball.


And we know how old the gods like the High Priest, Zeno or Super Shenron are? The fact that they're older doesn't mean a thing either.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 9, 2016)

Oh my fucking God. Black is the Zamasu from Goku's timeline, Future Zamasu is from Trunk's timeline. They. Are. Separate.

When Beerus killed current Zamasu, Beerus said it would affect the timeline, but since Black was wearing the time ring, his existence wasnt destroyed like it shouldve been. Black fucking says the time ring saved him. He cannot resist soulfucking and neither can Future Zamasu with his immortal body.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Oh my fucking God. Black is the Zamasu from Goku's timeline, Future Zamasu is from Trunk's timeline. They. Are. Separate.
> 
> When Beerus killed current Zamasu, Beerus said it would affect the timeline, but since Black was wearing the time ring, his existence wasnt destroyed like it shouldve been. Black fucking says the time ring saved him. He cannot resist soulfucking and neither can Future Zamasu with his immortal body.


Welcome to two pages before.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Then what does it mean?



Energy equivalence. 



> He does unless stated otherwise. Hakai destroys the soul. Zamasu made the immortality wish after Beerus destroyed him.



Those are two different Zamasus. It made no difference for the one with the "immortality" because the ring protected him. 



> You think he'd be dumb enough to merely wish for physical immortality? Cause Beerus could just come back and erase him again. I mean if Super Shenron had limited knowledge of the universe and the soul was some kind of esoteric concept then you'd be onto something but it's not the case. If Beerus can still destroy Zamasu then he isn't immortal which makes Zamasu an idiot and Super Shenron incompetent.



Beers is the God of Destruction. Other Gods fear him despite their own status and ranking. Immortality doesn't stop Garlic Jr. from being defeated and BFRed. Why the fuck would it prevent Black from getting soul-fucked? Hell if it was Shaka here he'd put Black and all the other Zamasu's into the rosary beads and be on his merry way.



> And we know how old the gods like the High Priest, Zeno or Super Shenron are? The fact that they're older doesn't mean a thing either.



Super Shenron isn't shit. And any of the Dragon's powers regardless of the Earth one, Namekian one or Super one can have their powers nullified by beings that eclipse them. I'm not satisfied at all by your reasoning.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Energy equivalence.


Isn't that pretty much what I said? In DBZ Cosmos doesn't exist therefore we equate Ki to Cosmos.




> Those are two different Zamasus. It made no difference for the one with the "immortality" because the ring protected him.


The fact they are different is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Zamasu was aware of Beeru's Hakai when he made the wish so he'd be a complete fool not to cover his ass from it.





> Beers is the God of Destruction. Other Gods fear him despite their own status and ranking. Immortality doesn't stop Garlic Jr. from being defeated and BFRed. Why the fuck would it prevent Black from getting soul-fucked? Hell if it was Shaka here he'd put Black and all the other Zamasu's into the rosary beads and be on his merry way.


Garlic Jr wasn't killed last time I checked which is what we're arguing. I already conceded that Zamasu can be incapacitated but not killed. What would prevent Zamasu from being soul-fucked is the fact that he made a wish to Super Shenron while aware of the fact Beerus can erase his soul in an instant. If Zamasu wished for immortality then Shenron has to cover him from anything that could bypass immortality in the DB universe otherwise Zamasu isn't immortal. If Zamasu was stupid enough to merely wish "make this body physically immortal" then that's what he is, stupid.





> Super Shenron isn't shit. And any of the Dragon's powers regardless of the Earth one, Namekian one or Super one can have their powers nullified by beings that eclipse them. I'm not satisfied at all by your reasoning.


They don't have their powers nullified. They are unable to directly kill beings who exceed the power of their creators.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> The fact they are different is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Zamasu was aware of Beeru's Hakai when he made the wish so he'd be a complete fool not to cover his ass from it.


you have 0 proof of this


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Isn't that pretty much what I said? In DBZ Cosmos doesn't exist therefore we equate Ki to Cosmos.







> The fact they are different is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that Zamasu was aware of Beeru's Hakai when he made the wish so he'd be a complete fool not to cover his ass from it.



Prove it. Immortality has only granted physical protection for people who have obtained, look at what OSA has brought up and rebuke that before you claim he's going to survive having his soul destroyed thanks to his wish.



> Garlic Jr wasn't killed last time I checked which is what we're arguing.



The example went completely over your head I see.



> I already conceded that Zamasu can be incapacitated but not killed.



He will die because there's no evidence of his soul being protected additionally thanks to his wish.



> What would prevent Zamasu from being soul-fucked is the fact that he made a wish to Super Shenron while aware of the fact Beerus can erase his soul in an instant. If Zamasu wished for immortality then Shenron has to cover him from anything that could bypass immortality in the DB universe otherwise Zamasu isn't immortal. If Zamasu was stupid enough to merely wish "make this body physically immortal" then that's what he is, stupid.



Prove it.



> They don't have their powers nullified. They are unable to directly kill beings who exceed the power of their creators.



Occham's Razor says they can be. Shenron couldn't even harm Vegeta or Nappa, Piccolo Daimou killed the first version of him, there's a precedence of this.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


>


Then please explain.





> Prove it. Immortality has only granted physical protection for people who have obtained, look at what OSA has brought up and rebuke that before you claim he's going to survive having his soul destroyed thanks to his wish.


It's the first time a successful wish for immortality has been made in Dragon Ball. No, non-canon movies don't count.





> The example went completely over your head I see.


Explain then.





> He will die because there's no evidence of his soul being protected additionally thanks to his wish.


More like the opposite. Super Shenron wouldn't cover him from Beerus for some bullshit reason? Right. Immortality is within the limits of Dragon Ball which last I checked has the concept of soul so there's literally no reason to assume it's only physical immortality, something that was never said in the first place. It's just immortality and you're applying arbitrary limitations for some unknown reason.

Zamasu: Grant me immortality.
Super Shenron: Your wish has been granted. Except Beerus can still kill you but don't tell him that.

Yeah makes a lot of sense.





> Prove it.


You can keep plugging your ears all you want. Either Zamasu is completely immortal by DBZ's established limits or he and Super Shenron are idiots.





> Occham's Razor says they can be. Shenron couldn't even harm Vegeta or Nappa, Piccolo Daimou killed the first version of him, there's a precedence of this.


He couldn't kill them because they were stronger than Kami which I already said. Nappa and Vegeta don't nullify his powers. Piccolo Daimao killing Shenron is relevant how?


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

@Juub 

there haven`t been any flashback of how zamasu whishes for Immortality. it could be like "grant my body immortality" or some sort. regardless, Immortality has levels to them


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> *snip*



Either put up feats of his soul having protection thanks to his wish or not. This is as nonsensical as claiming someone who is immortal is immune to mindfucking because they can't physically die. You're being pedantic as hell.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 9, 2016)

still didnt refute what i said. If Zamasu had an immortal body and didnt need to worry about Beerus and other GoDs, why did he use the cheap method of killing the Kais to kill the GoDs?


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> @Juub
> 
> there haven`t been any flashback of how zamasu whishes for Immortality. it could be like "grant my body immortality" or some sort. regardless, Immortality has levels to them


And that would defeat the whole purpose because a God of Destruction could just come around and end him again.


Fang said:


> Either put up feats of his soul having protection thanks to his wish or not. This is as nonsensical as claiming someone who is immortal is immune to mindfucking because they can't physically die. You're being pedantic as hell.


Prove he is merely physically immortal.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> still didnt refute what i said. If Zamasu had an immortal body and didnt need to worry about Beerus and other GoDs, why did he use the cheap method of killing the Kais to kill the GoDs?


Because they still can get in his way? He also isn't strong enough to kill Beerus.


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## SF latif (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> And that would defeat the whole purpose because a God of Destruction could just come around and end him again.


future zamasu knew nothing of getting killed by god of destruction. but then again, they had already planned to kill them so there are no gods of destruction in thier timeline to oppose them. but i digress


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> And that would defeat the whole purpose because a God of Destruction could just come around and end him again.
> Prove he is merely physically immortal.



That burden is on you, and its not shifting anywhere from there any time soon. I already posted weaker people then God Cloth Seiya destroying and affecting souls of multiple opponents like the Gold Saints and Specters. I even posted examples with Shaka even before ND sealing and killing a bunch of Specters via one of his weaker techniques.

God Cloth Seiya dwarfs him significantly. 

You need to prove his soul is somehow immune to exotic attacks.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

SF latif said:


> future zamasu knew nothing of getting killed by god of destruction. but then again, they had already planned to kill them so there are no gods of destruction in thier timeline to oppose them. but i digress


Not really really relevant. Unless we're also gonna assume Super Shenron doesn't know souls can be destroyed and knows nothing of Beerus' abilities. It's also unknown whether or not Black told Zamasu about the events that transpired but that's not really important.



Fang said:


> That burden is on you, and its not shifting anywhere from there any time soon. I already posted weaker people then God Cloth Seiya destroying and affecting souls of multiple opponents like the Gold Saints and Specters. I even posted examples with Shaka even before ND sealing and killing a bunch of Specters via one of his weaker techniques.
> 
> God Cloth Seiya dwarfs him significantly.
> 
> You need to prove his soul is somehow immune to exotic attacks.


How is the burden of the proof on me? We know Zamasu wished for immortality. That's all that's known. You're assuming it merely extends to physical immortality. That would just make Shenron incompetent and Zamasu foolish. As I said before, immortality should be within the established limits of what we talk about. If souls in DB were something barely anyone knew about but still existed, then perhaps it would be fair to assume a wish for immortality would only include the physical body. But then you have a Kaioshin who is fully aware of the soul and the afterlife, Super Shenron who is also aware. Beerus who killed Zamasu by wiping out his body and soul yet for some reason Super Shenron would just forget to make Zamasu resist Beerus' abilities, thus NOT making him immortal therefore not actually granting him his wish?

Makes a lot of sense.

Edit: Anyway, no point in running in circles. Gonna wait until this arc finishes and we're gonna see what happens.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> How is the burden of the proof on me?



You made a claim, you're asserting it, you need to prove it. Put up or shut up, that simple. Everyone has called you out for this, either do it or concede.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> You made a claim, you're asserting it, you need to prove it. Put up or shut up, that simple. Everyone has called you out for this, either do it or concede.


Already provided evidence. Now refute it. Either Zamasu and Super Shenron are idiots or his immortality extends to his soul. Pick one.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> Already provided evidence. Now refute it. Either Zamasu and Super Shenron are idiots or his immortality extends to his soul. Pick one.



You didn't. You just asserted via repeated ad naseum speculation and theory crafted your opinion that "this happened so I believe it won't work". Which doesn't fly. We don't give characters with physical immortality  free passes or immunity to soul attacks or mind attacks, and its not changing the standard here for Black. Put up or concede.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> You didn't. You just asserted via repeated ad naseum speculation and theory crafted your opinion that "this happened so I believe it won't work". Which doesn't fly. We don't give characters with physical immortality  free passes or immunity to soul attacks or mind attacks, and its not changing the standard here for Black. Put up or concede.


Tired of repeating myself. Keep plugging your ears if you want. Zamasu is immortal except he isn't. Makes a lot of sense.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Nah. See OAS and Laf's posts to see why that's wrong. 

Glad to know you're done here.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Nah. See OAS and Laf's posts to see why that's wrong.
> 
> Glad to know you're done here.


No they don't. It's pointless to argue with you because you just choose to ignore whatever you're presented with. So Shenron made Zamasu immortal but Beerus can still kill him. If you don't realize how stupid that is then I'll never waste my time with you again.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

Don't really care what you think since your arguments have been torn apart numerous times already by me and the others. Get over it.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> Don't really care what you think since your arguments have been torn apart numerous times already by me and the others. Get over it.


You never tore apart a thing. You just asked questions and when you were presented with logic you promptly ignored it. You didn't refute a thing of what I said. Now we assume Zamasu is only physically immortal just cause you want it.

You need to get off your high horse. You didn't even debate.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> No they don't. It's pointless to argue with you because you just choose to ignore whatever you're presented with. So Shenron made Zamasu immortal but Beerus can still kill him. If you don't realize how stupid that is then I'll never waste my time with you again.



In FF13 Etro and later The Chaos made Caius immortal yet Caius himself implies Saviour Lightning could soul-fuck him. 

Point being you can't assume that being immortal grants him immunity to things he hasn't been hit with.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Adamant soul said:


> In FF13 Etro and later The Chaos made Caius immortal yet Caius himself implies Saviour Lightning could soul-fuck him.
> 
> Point being you can't assume that being immortal grants him immunity to things he hasn't been hit with.


I literally just explained that about 10x now.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2016)

His arguments remind me of a certain poster who needs not be named who claimed that Logias couldn't be "mind fucked" because they were intangible and had no "minds" in that state.

Similar nonsensical stuff.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> I literally just explained that about 10x now.



No you didn't, you made an unfounded assumption about Zamasu's wish that you have no evidence whatsoever to support especially since neither Black nor Zamasu are even aware Beerus can do that, both having made their wishes before this happened.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Fang said:


> His arguments remind me of a certain poster who needs not be named who claimed that Logias couldn't be "mind fucked" because they were intangible and had no "minds" in that state.
> 
> Similar nonsensical stuff.


I'll make this simple for you.

-Goku in the Buu Saga was aware it was possible to completely kill off someone by erasing their souls.
-Souls and afterlife are widely known in the world of Dragon Ball.
-Zamasu was Hakai'd by Beerus. His soul was erased.
-Zamasu wishes for Super Shenron to make him immortal. You know, Super Shenron who is above Beerus or anyone not named Zen-Oh.

Now we don't know how the wish was formulated or the specifics. We have two conclusions:
A: Zamasu was made completely immortal. Hakai would not work on him once again.
B: Zamasu was only made physically immortal. Hakai would still work on him. Except if that's the case, he isn't immortal by the known limits of DB.



> No you didn't, you made an unfounded assumption about Zamasu's wish that you have no evidence whatsoever to support especially since neither Black nor Zamasu are even aware Beerus can do that, both having made their wishes before this happened.


Black is aware actually. That still wouldn't matter because then we'd conclude Zamasu's immortality within the known limits of DB isn't really immortality. Kaioshins are also all aware of the afterlife and souls.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 9, 2016)

Juub said:


> I'll make this simple for you.
> 
> -Goku in the Buu Saga was aware it was possible to completely kill off someone by erasing their souls.
> -Souls and afterlife are widely known in the world of Dragon Ball.
> ...



Oh Christ, so much wrong with this post. 

1) Unless you get sent to hell, you keep your physical body when you die. These are more resilient and have greater stamina than living bodies but otherwise behave exactly the same which is why they can be damaged and even destroyed by regular attacks.
2) We never see a soul that doesn't have a physical body take any kind of damage whatsoever, nor is it implied this could happen.
3) Beerus' wiping Zamasu from existence is the first and so far ONLY instance of a person being destroyed body AND soul, an event which neither Black nor the Zamasu who made the immortality wish had any knowledge of.

Generally speaking, a person in Dragon Ball has to be dead to begin with for their soul to be in any danger and even then, only if they have a physical body to be attacked. It's ludicrous to assume Zamasu's immortality automatically extends to something (his soul) that is usually safe enough especially when only one individual so far has the ability to damage it directly. Can the other GoD's likely do it too? Probably, would Zamasu know that? Hell no.

So unless Zamasu shrugs off Hakai from a God of Destruction at some point, his soul is as vulnerable as anyone elses.


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## SkylineGTR (Nov 9, 2016)

To be fair, beerus did say he can destroy future Zamasu (most likely with Hakai), so soul destroying attacks can get past immortality unless shown otherwise.


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## Juub (Nov 9, 2016)

Adamant soul said:


> 1) Unless you get sent to hell, you keep your physical body when you die. These are more resilient and have greater stamina than living bodies but otherwise behave exactly the same which is why they can be damaged and even destroyed by regular attacks.


That's not entirely true. It seems to only happen to powerful fighters. Regular souls are seen in volume 18 entering Enma's Palace. They look like small clouds. Guys like Goku or Vegeta even when dead get to keep their bodies but when you destroy that body they cease to exist. That body is the equivalent of the small clouds you see in volume 18. It is essentially their souls.



> 2) We never see a soul that doesn't have a physical body take any kind of damage whatsoever, nor is it implied this could happen.


Goku and Vegeta with the Halo is basically them in a soul form. They never take on the form of the clouds you see in volume 18. So when Vegeta was getting beaten up by Kid Buu, it was his soul getting beaten up.



> 3) Beerus' wiping Zamasu from existence is the first and so far ONLY instance of a person being destroyed body AND soul, an event which neither Black nor the Zamasu who made the immortality wish had any knowledge of.


They wouldn't need to. Black was also aware of what had happened to his past self. My point is that a wish for immortality is made within the known limitations of DB. Souls are widely known, so is the afterlife. If Super Shenron grants an immortality wish that can still be bypassed by the known limits of DB then it is not immortality. That's why I said unless we know Zamasu wished specifically for physical immortality, his immortality has to cover every possible way of dying in the DB universe.



> Generally speaking, a person in Dragon Ball has to be dead to begin with for their soul to be in any danger and even then, only if they have a physical body to be attacked. It's ludicrous to assume Zamasu's immortality automatically extends to something (his soul) that is usually safe enough especially when only one individual so far has the ability to damage it directly. Can the other GoD's likely do it too? Probably, would Zamasu know that? Hell no.


Considering Kaioshins and Gods of Destruction are directly linked and hold a meeting every so often I see no reason for them not to be aware of each other's abilities. They know their roles, they know their rules. Even if we assume they do not, the mere concept of souls and the afterlife is known to Shenron(who can bring back people from there). There would be no reason for him to stop the immortality at the physical body when he is fully aware of what lies beyond the physical realm.



> So unless Zamasu shrugs off Hakai from a God of Destruction at some point, his soul is as vulnerable as anyone elses.


And that's where we disagree. A logical conclusion is that his immortality sits at the known limitations of DB. Not beneath or beyond. Why would the soul not be included when we know it can be destroyed and is very much a part of DB?

My problem with you guys' reasoning is the fact that even though Zamasu wished immortality from Super Shenron, he still isn't truly immortal. Even if Beerus were the only guy who knows Hakai it doesn't matter, one person is all it takes for Shenron's abilities to apply.

You want him to show resistance to Hakai when you should be asking for the opposite. Beerus should show his Hakai still works.


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## Unlucky13 (Nov 9, 2016)

Well with all the soul has on the SS side I've seen argued, yea they win quite handily against the supposed 'immortal' Zamasu.


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 10, 2016)

Yagami1211 said:


> Zamasu's illusion is that he fucks Bulma.



But of course, Ikki is not an unreasonable man after all.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> Guys like Goku or Vegeta even when dead get to keep their bodies


You lost all your credibility to talk about this right here. Vegeta doesnt get to keep his body when he dies, he committed too many evil acts and got a body through special circumstances

Anyway, if Zamasu is immortal he wouldnt have to worry about GoDs, but he killed them in the cheapest way. So they are clearly still a threat to him

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You lost all your credibility to talk about this right here. Vegeta doesnt get to keep his body when he dies, he committed too many evil acts and got a body through special circumstances
> 
> Anyway, if Zamasu is immortal he wouldnt have to worry about GoDs, but he killed them in the cheapest way. So they are clearly still a threat to him


Being immortal doesnt mean much when they could sleep through his attacks


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Being immortal doesnt mean much when they could sleep through his attacks


he has the potential to equal a GoD. If he was truly immortal he wouldnt need to worry


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## Toaa (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> he has the potential to equal a GoD. If he was truly immortal he wouldnt need to worry


The potential but if he were to fight one he would beaten and do not forget their attendants


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Anyway, if Zamasu is immortal he wouldnt have to worry about GoDs, but he killed them in the cheapest way. So they are clearly still a threat to him



Just to correct you here. Zamasu didn't kill the GoDs through the Kais. It was Goku Black, who isn't immortal. Also, Beerus has sealing abilities. So either way that's a good enough reason to get rid of them. Future Zamasu is definitely immortal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> You lost all your credibility to talk about this right here. Vegeta doesnt get to keep his body when he dies, he committed too many evil acts and got a body through special circumstances
> 
> Anyway, if Zamasu is immortal he wouldnt have to worry about GoDs, but he killed them in the cheapest way. So they are clearly still a threat to him


I said "it seems only powerful fighters get to keep their bodies" which is true. Apparently King Enma let Vegeta keep his body after Majin Buu killed him. My point was that not everyone gets to keep their bodies as shown in volume 18. Some go there straight as souls.

Of course they are still a threat to him. They are far stronger than he is. Look at how much trouble Goku, Vegeta and Trunks are giving him and they aren't even GoD's. Can you imagine if all of them were around? They would mess up his plan. He couldn't just leave them around obviously. Beerus even sealed the Elder Kaioshin in a sword. He could do the same to Zamasu.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> he has the potential to equal a GoD. If he was truly immortal he wouldnt need to worry


Come on that's a weak argument. Zamasu is nowhere near Beerus. Neither is Black. A GoD or their attendants could still ruin their day.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 10, 2016)

Zamasu stays out of range from an Athena Exclamation, because it has a range of a fucking floor rug. He then fist bumps and destroys the universe they are in. Because DBS Universe busting has bigger range than Saint Seiya.

GG Divine Cloths.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Zamasu stays out of range from an Athena Exclamation, because it has a range of a fucking floor rug. He then fist bumps and destroys the universe they are in. Because DBS Universe busting has bigger range than Saint Seiya.
> 
> GG Divine Cloths.


They are still faster.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 10, 2016)

Juub said:


> They are still faster.


Debatable. 
High end Black Zamasu could be FTL if we consider scaling with speed.
And being faster doesn't always equate to an insta win. This, considering Fusion Zamasu is slower (which I doubt).

Not to mention the Divine Bronze's wont find Fusion Zamasu if he uses IT several galaxies away.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Debatable.
> High end Black Zamasu could be FTL if we consider scaling with speed.
> And being faster doesn't always equate to an insta win. This, considering Fusion Zamasu is slower (which I doubt).
> 
> Not to mention the Divine Bronze's wont find Fusion Zamasu if he uses IT several galaxies away.



We don't extrapolate speed here. Saint Seiya are at a minimum high quintillion to low septillion. Dragon Ball are low quadrillion. There's quite a difference here. And speed does equal to a win if the opposing side has hax and speed as well as comparable DC. If everyone is universal but one side has more speed and more hax then what?


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## creyzi4zb12 (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> We don't extrapolate speed here. Saint Seiya are at a minimum high quintillion to low septillion. Dragon Ball are low quadrillion. There's quite a difference here. And speed does equal to a win if the opposing side has hax and speed as well as comparable DC. If everyone is universal but one side has more speed and more hax then what?


What? high quintillion to low septillion? Where is this from?


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> What? high quintillion to low septillion? Where is this from?



Episode G - Assassin.

Shura surpassed the initial expansion speed of the big bang. Even before that feat Thanatos was low quintillion which is still > low quadrillion.


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Just to correct you here. Zamasu didn't kill the GoDs through the Kais. It was Goku Black, who isn't immortal. Also, Beerus has sealing abilities. So either way that's a good enough reason to get rid of them. Future Zamasu is definitely immortal.


Does Future Zamasu have a time ring?


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

Sablés said:


> Does Future Zamasu have a time ring?



From what I recall, he does not.


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> From what I recall, he does not.


Then what is preventing immortality granted by the Super DBs from being resistant to soul hax

Beerus was confident that Zamasu in all timelines was going to be erased and that Trunks had noting to worry about when returning to the future. The fact that Zamasu was immortal was the biggest issue for the saiyans in the first place.


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

Sablés said:


> Then what is preventing immortality granted by the Super DBs from being resistant to soul hax
> 
> Beerus was confident that Zamasu in all timelines was going to be erased and that Trunks had noting to worry about when returning to the future. The fact that Zamasu was immortal was the biggest issue for the saiyans in the first place.



The pro argument from what I understand is what you're saying, the Super Dragon Balls should cover all kinds of ability that would be a threat to his immortality, also, Future Zamasu survived Hakai. And on the con side it's Zamasu's immortality hasn't shown soul resistance. But that goes back on itself with the whole Hakai thing.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> The pro argument from what I understand is what you're saying, the Super Dragon Balls should cover all kinds of ability that would be a threat to his immortality, also, Future Zamasu survived Hakai. And on the con side it's Zamasu's immortality hasn't shown soul resistance. But that goes back on itself with the whole Hakai thing.


?? Future Zamasu never survived Hakai and wouldnt even know about it.


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> ?? Future Zamasu never survived Hakai and wouldnt even know about it.



I was under the impression Beerus wanted to erase all Zamasu's. But Super Shenlong _would_ know about it. The immortality wish would simply mean "cannot die" and Shenlong covers the rest. So he shouldn't be able to be killed regardless of what is used.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> Zamasu stays out of range from an Athena Exclamation, because it has a range of a fucking floor rug. He then fist bumps and destroys the universe they are in. Because DBS Universe busting has bigger range than Saint Seiya.
> 
> GG Divine Cloths.



Oh, its the guy who was wanking Ugo from earlier  and is now claiming Athena Exclamations are "floor rugs" level now?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> The pro argument from what I understand is what you're saying, the Super Dragon Balls should cover all kinds of ability that would be a threat to his immortality, also, Future Zamasu survived Hakai. And on the con side it's Zamasu's immortality hasn't shown soul resistance. But that goes back on itself with the whole Hakai thing.



I see



OneSimpleAnime said:


> ?? Future Zamasu never survived Hakai .



Beerus' Hakai was intended to extend to Future Zamasu as well

It.Did.Not.Work

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 10, 2016)

Oh right, Future Zamasu does not have the Time Ring? I was always under the impression that he had it.


Since in response to Trunks claiming the androids weren't destroyed in the future after being killed in the present, Beerus stated that since he is a god his hax wouldn't have this problem. Then there was no reason for Future Zamasu not to get affected.


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## Toaa (Nov 10, 2016)

So zamasu does have resistance to soul hax

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Oh right, Future Zamasu does not have the Time Ring? I was always under the impression that he had it.
> 
> 
> Since in response to Trunks claiming the androids weren't destroyed in the future after being killed in the present, Beerus stated that since he is a god his hax wouldn't have this problem. Then there was no reason for Future Zamasu not to get affected.


assuming he doesn't have a time ring.

i never bothered to check but it'd be weird considering Gowasu already died and zamasu had nothing to lose by taking his


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2016)

Sablés said:


> Beerus' Hakai was intended to extend to Future Zamasu as well
> 
> It.Did.Not.Work


I was under the impression that since it was a different Zamasu from the one he erased that it didnt work, especially since Black implied that the time ring is what saved him, but Future Zamasu never mentions anything about it.

Since Black is the same Zamasu from Gokus timeline, without the ring he would be gone, but Future Zamasu isnt the same one


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I was under the impression that since it was a different Zamasu from the one he erased that it didnt work, especially since Black implied that the time ring is what saved him, but Future Zamasu never mentions anything about it.
> 
> Since Black is the same Zamasu from Gokus timeline, without the ring he would be gone, but Future Zamasu isnt the same one



Beerus wouldn't have been so assured that the future would be safe if Future Zamasu wasn't going to be killed as well.

It is what it is.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2016)

Sablés said:


> Beerus wouldn't have been so assured that the future would be safe if Future Zamasu wasn't going to be killed as well.
> 
> It is what it is.


They still didnt know who Black was though and assumed that Future Zamasu was the one from their timeline at the time Beerus Hakai'd him


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> They still didnt know who Black was though and assumed that Future Zamasu was the one from their timeline at the time Beerus Hakai'd him


They didn't need to know who Black was, nor am I seeing it as relevant.


What they DID  know was that:

a) Future Zamasu and Black defeated them and are established enemies
b) Future Zamasu is immortal
c) They need to get rid of them both for the future to be saved

I repeat



Sablés said:


> Beerus wouldn't have been so assured that the future would be safe if Future Zamasu wasn't going to be killed as well.



No matter how you slice it, Hakai was meant to get rid off Future Zamasu or none of what Beerus did  or believed checks out.


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## SF latif (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> The pro argument from what I understand is what you're saying, the Super Dragon Balls should cover all kinds of ability that would be a threat to his immortality, also, Future Zamasu survived Hakai. And on the con side it's Zamasu's immortality hasn't shown soul resistance. But that goes back on itself with the whole Hakai thing.


i was alwayse under the impression that it all comes down to how the whish was made. and we don`t have a scene of future zamasu whishing for his Immortality correct? so i`m not sure.


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## God Movement (Nov 10, 2016)

SF latif said:


> i was alwayse under the impression that it all comes down to how the whish was made. and we don`t have a scene of future zamasu whishing for his Immortality correct? so i`m not sure.



There's no scenes of Zamasu making his wish besides Whis' assessment of the situation which showed the possible scenario. He simply said I wish for immortality.


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## SF latif (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> There's no scenes of Zamasu making his wish besides Whis' assessment of the situation which showed the possible scenario. He simply said I wish for immortality.


i remember him whishing for Immortal body, not just Immortality entirely in that scene


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## SkylineGTR (Nov 10, 2016)

Ah interesting point. I always assumed FZ had a time ring which protected him from Hakai since he can't get affected by being killed in the past (acasuality), however if he doesn't have one, that means his immortality did in fact protect him from being destroyed proving his soul hax resistance and acasuality without a time ring.

Maybe the SS cast can't kill him, but don't they also got sealing moves to deal with him?

Should also be noted Beerus did still say if he went to the future he could DESTROY FZ, not seal him so it's still hard to say whether or not his immortality has limits.


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## Toaa (Nov 10, 2016)

We will never know because vegito sama is coming


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## Gordo solos (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I was under the impression that since it was a different Zamasu from the one he erased that it didnt work, especially since Black implied that the time ring is what saved him, but Future Zamasu never mentions anything about it.


Future Zamasu is the biggest problem because of his immortality, it was supposed to extend to him as well but it didn't work


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

SkylineGTR said:


> Should also be noted Beerus did still say if he went to the future he could DESTROY FZ, not seal him so it's still hard to say whether or not his immortality has limits.


Beerus is a known braggart.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2016)

Sablés said:


> They didn't need to know who Black was, nor am I seeing it as relevant.
> 
> 
> What they DID  know was that:
> ...


they thought Black was a servant that Zamasu made with Goku's body using the Dragon Balls, they didnt know he was actually Zamasu


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## Toaa (Nov 10, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Future Zamasu is the biggest problem because of his immortality, it was supposed to extend to him as well but it didn't work


Why didnt it work?


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> they thought Black was a servant that Zamasu made with Goku's body using the Dragon Balls, they didnt know he was actually Zamasu


this.does.not.matter.m8

black's identity is nigh-irrelevant from where I'm standing supposing there isn't some important facet to the discussion I've missed that demeans Future Zamasu as a threat by himself.


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## XImpossibruX (Nov 10, 2016)

Immortality means you can't die, correct?

Destroying the soul means you will die. 

Therefore, shouldn't it be the case that immortality would extend to everything that could possibly kill Zamasu?


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Immortality means you can't die, correct?
> 
> Destroying the soul means you will die.
> 
> Therefore, shouldn't it be the case that immortality would extend to everything that could possibly kill Zamasu?


That's exactly what I argued for two pages.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Oh, its the guy who was wanking Ugo from earlier  and is now claiming Athena Exclamations are "floor rugs" level now?


it's funny because Mu's Starlight Extinction had enough range to destroy a pocket universe

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Unlucky13 (Nov 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Immortality means you can't die, correct?
> 
> Destroying the soul means you will die.
> 
> Therefore, shouldn't it be the case that immortality would extend to everything that could possibly kill Zamasu?


IIRC, OBD uses different types of immortality as the term is not equal throughout fiction. For instance, I recall soul destroying in some fictions dose not only mean death but being wiped from the cycle of reincarnation or revival unless you have soul resistance feats like Sailor Moon having her soul melted down but still coming back.


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## SF latif (Nov 10, 2016)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> it's funny because Mu's Starlight Extinction had enough range to destroy a pocket universe


don`t saint`s often try to avoid a Collateral damage because they`r good guy`s?


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Immortality means you can't die, correct?
> 
> Destroying the soul means you will die.
> 
> Therefore, shouldn't it be the case that immortality would extend to everything that could possibly kill Zamasu?



Not always, no it doesn't. We don't normally assume physical immortality extends to the mind or soul.


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## saint rider 890 (Nov 10, 2016)

God Movement said:


> We don't extrapolate speed here. Saint Seiya are at a minimum high quintillion to low septillion. Dragon Ball are low quadrillion. There's quite a difference here. And speed does equal to a win if the opposing side has hax and speed as well as comparable DC. If everyone is universal but one side has more speed and more hax then what?



What about this Speed ?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## XImpossibruX (Nov 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> Not always, no it doesn't. We don't normally assume physical immortality extends to the mind or soul.


Why is specifically tied to physical immortality? Zamasu wished to be immortal, not any specific characteristics of immortality.  

Wouldn't immortality (the broad sense of it that Shenron granted since Zamasu asked for immortality) be tied to just not dying? And if you destroy the soul you are dead, meaning that immortality would block the destruction of the soul and the consequent death.

Obviously the mind can still be affected, cause you can MC or telepathically shutdown someone without killing them, but for the soul it just seems like a simple argument of cases.

1. Zamasu asked to become immortal

2. Immortality means that Zamasu can't die

3. Destroying the soul would mean Zamasu dies.

Therefore

Because immortality blocks death, it would block death by destruction of the soul.

Seems pretty clear cut to me, if all the premises are true.


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## Unlucky13 (Nov 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Why is specifically tied to physical immortality? Zamasu wished to be immortal, not any specific characteristics of immortality.
> 
> Wouldn't immortality (the broad sense of it that Shenron granted since Zamasu asked for immortality) be tied to just not dying? And if you destroy the soul you are dead, meaning that immortality would block the destruction of the soul and the consequent death.
> 
> ...


The immortality itself has to be clarified else it's just assumed to be physical immortality the majority of the time. Plenty of character in fiction have physical immortality (can't be killed through physical means such as old age) but not soul or reality warping resistance and thus be erased/killed through other means.

I belive the OBD has a list


Also we have the Hourai Elixir from Touhou for an example

_The elixir itself isn't a power that keeps one immortal, but makes one an existence completely independent of even the concept of reality, thus making one not subject to the bounds of life, death, or even manipulation, although the pain of injuries can still be felt. As Alice has said, immortality casts away the physical body, and the soul is constantly reborn in new flesh. This medicine indeed makes one truly invincible, and forced to live out their existence forever._


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## XImpossibruX (Nov 10, 2016)

Unlucky13 said:


> The immortality itself has to be clarified else* it's just assumed to be physical immortality the majority of the time. *



Two things.

Prove this.

and

Why?

Without specifics, why are we ascribing specifics? That doesn't make sense.

There would need to be a generally accepted version of immortality when specifics aren't given, but there isn't. I'm going by the literal definition of immortality, which it means to not die, which would mean Zamasu can't die, thus back to the argument of cases.


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## XImpossibruX (Nov 10, 2016)

Also there's something about Beerus's Hakai or whatever, idk. 

Either way, that's my opinion on that.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Why is specifically tied to physical immortality? Zamasu wished to be immortal, not any specific characteristics of immortality.



That problem isn't on us.



> Wouldn't immortality (the broad sense of it that Shenron granted since Zamasu asked for immortality) be tied to just not dying? And if you destroy the soul you are dead, meaning that immortality would block the destruction of the soul and the consequent death.



Not unless he's displayed that resistance is it assumed to function that way.



> Obviously the mind can still be affected, cause you can MC or telepathically shutdown someone without killing them, but for the soul it just seems like a simple argument of cases.



Its no different with astral attacks then it is with psychic or psionic ones, so why the double standards?



XImpossibruX said:


> Two things.
> 
> Prove this.



Prove he's immune to having his soul atomized. That's on you.


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## Unlucky13 (Nov 10, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Two things.
> 
> Prove this.
> 
> ...


Than would I have to assume the opposite of you trying to prove Zamasu is immortal in the spiritual sense as well?

You think immortality is tied to the spiritual form as well as the physical while I assume that until more is given (and depending on the series) its more physical.

I even linked the OBD use of the term immortal if we still go by that standard along with case by case basis. What's the general census of those debating on the thread than? I know you and Juub say that Zamasu should be immortal in the spiritual sense as well but others disagree on that notion. 

Thus we're at an impass than until more is shown on DBS. Feel free to continue arguing it I guess but I already gave my opinion on the matter.

Also when you say he can't die would you assume someone like Zeno (based on his hype) can't kill him?


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> That problem isn't on us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For fuck's sake. Why are you assuming his immortality is merely physical in the first place? We are assuuming his immortality covers everything within the known limits of DBZ which yes includes soul immortality. His immortality is absolute by DB standards, soul should be covered by default. Not the other way around. His immortality is at the established limits of DB. Not beneath or beyond.

Answer this, why are we assuming only physical immortality when that type of immortality is beneath the established limits and makes him vulnerable to death, making him not really truly immortal?


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## Gordo solos (Nov 10, 2016)

Zamasu's immortality was granted to him by Super Shenron. No idea how that correlates to "spiritual immortality" or not tho


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## SF latif (Nov 10, 2016)

i would like to point out that in Saintia-Sho it`s said that the Souls of Gods are Immortal, and seiya in god cloth Killed Thanatos, who`s a god of death himself (Allthough some people migh argue it`s not canon to original saint seiya but it`s there).


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Nov 10, 2016)

Unlucky13 said:


> I even linked the OBD use of the term immortal if we still go by that standard along with case by case basis. What's the general census of those debating on the thread than? I know you and Juub say that Zamasu should be immortal in the spiritual sense as well but others disagree on that notion.



Refer to the top and middle of this page. We already established Future Zamasu survived Beerus' soul hax, that's what should be debated. There is not much point to the current discussion.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 10, 2016)

Immortality means Eternal-Unending Life? Why are we adding stipulations that do not actually exist in the story? It's not as if Zamasu was stated to be immortal in a figurative sense, he was granted immortality by a magic Dragon and in DB, there are a billion ways to die. Why would this magical Dragon make him immortal to only *some* of the shit in the world? Why would the dragon do this without telling him about it?

If he was made immortal, but with caveats, we would need to see what they are, not make them up.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Immortality means Eternal-Unending Life? Why are we adding stipulations that do not actually exist in the story? It's not as if Zamasu was stated to be immortal in a figurative sense, he was granted immortality by a magic Dragon and in DB, there are a billion ways to die. Why would this magical Dragon make him immortal to only *some* of the shit in the world? Why would the dragon do this without telling him about it?
> 
> If he was made immortal, but with caveats, we would need to see what they are, not make them up.


Exactly what I've been telling Fang and his posse. Apparently the burden of the proof is on me to prove Zamasu's immortality includes soul immortality when they are the ones who made the claim that his immortality is not absolute and for some bullshit unspecified reason wouldn't protect Zamasu against Beerus.


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

Did you just use the word posse unironically in 2016?


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Immortality means Eternal-Unending Life? Why are we adding stipulations that do not actually exist in the story? It's not as if Zamasu was stated to be immortal in a figurative sense, he was granted immortality by a magic Dragon and in DB, there are a billion ways to die. Why would this magical Dragon make him immortal to only *some* of the shit in the world? Why would the dragon do this without telling him about it?
> 
> If he was made immortal, but with caveats, we would need to see what they are, not make them up.



You don't get to make a blanket claim on something a character never showed and then assume they have said ability or resistance.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> You don't get to make a blanket claim on something a character never showed and then assume they have said ability or resistance.


Yeah instead we make bullshit assumptions about the limitations. A lot better.



Sablés said:


> Did you just use the word posse unironically in 2016?


It was used sarcastically.


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## Sablés (Nov 10, 2016)

There is nothing bullshit about it.

Immortality does not protect against soul hax or an esoteric skill of that nature as a default, it needs to be proven. Immortality makes the BODY invincible and even that is subjected to its own limits


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## Juub (Nov 10, 2016)

Sablés said:


> There is nothing bullshit about it.
> 
> Immortality does not protect against soul hax or an esoteric skill of that nature as a default, it needs to be proven. *Immortality makes the BODY* invincible and even that is subjected to its own limits


Immortality makes on immortal period. You're just applying arbitrary limitations.

I agree it does not protect against esoteric concepts especially if given by a being not aware of said concept. Except destroying the soul is NOT an esoteric concept in DB. If only Zeno knew about the nature of the soul and he was the only one capable of destroying it then yeah, immortality granted by Shenron would not cover the soul because only Zeno, a being above him would have showed the ability to harm the soul directly. It's not the case. Beerus showed the ability to casually wipe out someone's soul and he sure as hell isn't above Super Shenron and destroying the soul is NOT an esoteric concept in DB. It's very common. No reason for it not to be covered by immortality.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 10, 2016)

Fang said:


> You don't get to make a blanket claim on something a character never showed and then assume they have said ability or resistance.



*Immortality = immune to death.*

He is *not* "_resistant"_ to being _harmed_ by "soul hax", he just *can't die* from it. Where is the evidence that he is not actually immortal or immortal in a lesser sense of the word?


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## Xhominid (Nov 10, 2016)

Didn't the scene where Goku Black stated that he survived Beerus's Hakai is when he specifically had the Time Ring be shown while he was talking?(like didn't he put up the hand with it and it was in the same shot as his face?)

Because I'm pretty certain that's why Goku Black survived that. Not sure about FZ.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> *Immortality = immune to death.*
> 
> He is *not* "_resistant"_ to being _harmed_ by "soul hax", he just *can't die* from it. Where is the evidence that he is not actually immortal or immortal in lesser a sense of the word?



Where is the evidence? He's never taken a soul attack so that the burden is still on you. He can be functionally "alive" but his body isn't going to be doing shit with his soul destroyed. You have no proof of this so no one is going to buy that claim.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Brolypotence (Nov 10, 2016)

> Is immortal
> Dies by soul removal
How was he immortal again

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Jackk (Nov 10, 2016)

It'll be funny when Vegetto's punches end up destroying Zamasu's soul

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> Where is the evidence? He's never taken a soul attack.



He's never had AIDS, either. Can he die from AIDS? 


Fang said:


> He can be functionally "alive".


Without a soul, you're dead, bro. 
Kind of like how Vegeta's *Body *was on Namek but his soul was in the afterlife. His body was not _"functionally alive"_.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

That's a really dumb non sequitur

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Juub (Nov 11, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> Didn't the scene where Goku Black stated that he survived Beerus's Hakai is when he specifically had the Time Ring be shown while he was talking?(like didn't he put up the hand with it and it was in the same shot as his face?)
> 
> Because I'm pretty certain that's why Goku Black survived that. Not sure about FZ.


Nobody's arguing Black is immortal. He isn't.



Fang said:


> Where is the evidence? He's never taken a soul attack so that the burden is still on you. He can be functionally "alive" but his body isn't going to be doing shit with his soul destroyed. *You have no proof of this so no one is going to buy that claim.*


Follow your own damn advice. Also no he won't be functionally alive with his soul destroyed.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> That's a really dumb non sequitur


Non Sequitur?

You are literally arguing, you can bypass immortality by being attacked with something you have never been attacked with before.

LMAO Like souls don't exist in Dragon Ball.
Shenron:_ "Zamasu, I will make your body immortal, but not your soul!"_
Zamasu:_  "WTF?! Why would you do that?!"_
Shenron:_ "So that you can be killed with soul hax!"_
Zamasu:_  "WTF?! That's not immortality."_
Shenron:_  "I know, right?"_

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Non Sequitur?
> 
> You are literally arguing, you can bypass immortality by being attacked with something you have never been attacked with before.
> 
> LMAO Like souls don't exist in Dragon Ball.



You're comparing an exotic technique which has nothing to do with durability or physical limitations with a STD. You aren't winning any support with stupid argumentation like this. And the closet equivalent he has with this is being protected by the time ring, which nullifies the "immortality" claim in the first place regardless of how the wish worked.

So let's recap:

- There's no history of immortality having any feats of resisting soul attacks in DBS successfully
- There's a history of immortality, regeneration, and even Gods being fucked over by soul attacks in Saint Seiya

Balls in your court to prove Zamasu is able to survive the soul attack even if his body is physically immortal.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Jackk (Nov 11, 2016)

Poor fools of the Highlander series. Nobody told them that they're not actually immortal lel

Seriously though, there are different levels or versions of immortality. This isn't so hard

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Speaking of which didn't Asmita in the LC Gaiden beat a Specter who had mastered the 8th Sense?


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## Brolypotence (Nov 11, 2016)

Zamasu can't be killed by soul fuck until it is implied in the anime by statements or feats.
Wuts the point of being immortal if u can be killed by soul removal. 

This whole soul fucking an immortal thing is fabricated by the OBD to make VS against Immortal a little more fair. 

The literal definition of immortality is  'a being that cannot be killed in any way shape or form' but I know U OBD ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) are gonna debate this till the end of time, how else is the party that ur rooting for has a chance of winning. 

Fuck this shit

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> Zamasu can't be killed by soul fuck until it is implied in the anime by statements or feats.



He has no statement or feats of resisting soul attacks therefore the claim is a classic textbook example of a no limits fallacy. Why is this so hard for you people to understand?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> You're comparing an exotic technique which has nothing to do with durability or physical limitations with a STD. You aren't winning any support with stupid argumentation like this. And the closet equivalent he has with this is being protected by the time ring, which nullifies the "immortality" claim in the first place regardless of how the wish worked.
> 
> So let's recap:
> 
> ...



Incorrect. The term _"exotic technique"_ is relative.
Incorrect again. Black was saved by the Time Ring. Since, you know, Black isn't immortal. Zamasu is, thus no need for the Time Ring.

So let's recap

- You are taking *Saint Seiya's own special definition of immortality *(that isn't actually immortality) and trying to apply it to other fictions. So far in DB, there is no reason to question why an immortal person isn't actually immortal. Until then, you're making shit up, homeboy

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Juub (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> He has no statement or feats of resisting soul attacks therefore the claim is a classic textbook example of a no limits fallacy. Why is this so hard for you people to understand?


It's not a no limits fallacy. Destroying the soul is within the limits of DB. Are you this dense on purpose?

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> *snip*



Where is the relativity? Its an attack that targets the soul, there is no indication the soul has any special status of protection in DBS. Otherwise prove it. You made a claim, you have the burden of proof on you to prove his immortality extends to his soul or grants special protection.

You have literally done none of that.

And the tangent here is Black Zamasu, so what the does Future Zamasu have to do with any of this?

Put up the evidence that Seiya can't atomize his soul.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Juub (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> Where is the relativity? Its an attack that targets the soul, *there is no indication the soul has any special status of protection in DBS.* Otherwise prove it. You made a claim, you have the burden of proof on you to prove his immortality extends to his soul or grants special protection.
> 
> You have literally done none of that.
> 
> ...


Lol you got this shit backwards. I know you either put me on ignore or are just ignoring what I'm saying but others can still see it so whatever. YOU have to prove the soul would NOT benefit from immortality. YOU are the one applying arbitrary limitations to a wish that has unknown and unspecified mechanics. The burden of the proof is on you. YOU have to prove Zamasu somehow only wished for his body and only his body to be immortal. Otherwise his immortality without specifics is plain immortality and should cover whatever can kill in DBS which includes destroying the soul. So no your bullshit no-limits fallacy cop-out doesn't apply. The limits of his immortality are within the limits of DBS.

Of course you're gonna be a child and ignore me lol. Plug your ears like you always do and sing that you can't hear me.

Edit: Black Zamasu is Black fused with future Zamasu. He likely acquired immortality from the Zamasu half BUT the fusion may have actually messed him up by only making one half of him immortal. That remains to be seen.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> Where is the relativity? Its an attack that targets the soul, there is no indication the soul has any special status of protection in DBS. Otherwise prove it. You made a claim, you have the burden of proof on you to prove his immortality extends to his soul or grants special protection.
> 
> You have literally done none of that.
> 
> ...


Soul Attacks are an "_exotic technique"_ *to you, *since I'm pretty sure Change Bodies is a soul attack.

And I said Zamasu is immortal. You say his soul isn't. LOL You gotta prove that shit! How many parts of Zamasu aint immortal, now? Since when has immortality only applied to one aspect of a person's being?

Are we talking about Black, Zamasu, or Merged Zamasu? Cuz I thought this thread was about Merged Zamasu (Black Zamasu).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Nov 11, 2016)

the thread is for Merged Zamasu

OP could have picked his choice of words for the title better

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sablés (Nov 11, 2016)

Jackk said:


> Poor fools of the Highlander series. Nobody told them that they're not actually immortal lel
> 
> Seriously though, there are different levels or versions of immortality. This isn't so hard



You would think

Especially when its emphasized that Super DBs shit on the regular ones so there should be a difference in scale of the wishes regardless.


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Soul Attacks are an "_exotic technique"_ *to you*



Nope.



> since I'm pretty sure Change Bodies is a soul attack.



Nope.



> And I said Zamasu is immortal.



Irrelevant when it comes to soul or mind attacks.



> You say his soul isn't. LOL You gotta prove that shit! How many parts of Zamasu aint immortal, now? LOL



The bait isn't working. The burden of proof is still on you. Weaker characters who are below God Cloth Seiya can destroy souls of immortals and those who have total mastery of their bodies like guys who have mastered the 8th Sense. Seiya stacks up above all of them and can hit or destroy souls with his fists.

*You* have to prove he's not going to be fucked over by that, not me. We know Seiya can do it, you have no proof Zamasu can survive it. Put up.



> Are we talking about Black, Zamasu, or Merged Zamasu? Cuz I thought this thread was about Merged Zamasu (Black Zamasu.



Its the fused Zamasu. But that changes nothing.

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## Juub (Nov 11, 2016)

>Shaka killed dudes who were granted immortality by Hades

Well maybe these guys should go see Hades and ask for a freakin refund. Clearly his immortality is defective. Hope they still got their receipts.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Juub (Nov 11, 2016)

Sablés said:


> You would think
> 
> Especially when its emphasized that Super DBs shit on the regular ones so there should be a difference in scale of the wishes regardless.


Of course. If Super Shenron granted you immortality then regular Shenron wouldn't be able to strip it. If regular Shenron granted you immortality Super Shenron could undo it in a heartbeat.

Doesn't mean only parts of Zamasu are immortal for some unknown reason.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

This aint going anywhere.

Explanations of why immortality only applies to someone's body are based in SS' logic and lack any meaningful reasoning in cross-fiction debates.

Outside of Saint Seiya, if you claim to be immortal and you are killed, you are not immortal. Characters *dying* from soul hax were never immortal to begin with, since ya'know, they were brutally murdered N' all that. What's being described here is physical


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> This aint going anywhere.
> 
> Explanations of why immortality only applies to someone's body are based in SS' logic and lack any meaningful reasoning in cross-fiction debates.
> 
> Outside of Saint Seiya, if you claim to be immortal and you are killed, you are not immortal. Characters *dying* from soul hax were never immortal to begin with, since ya'know, they were brutally murdered N' all that.



This is a pretty bad example of a red herring.

So once again: being a immortal doesn't make a person's soul any more protected from soul attacks then it does their mind from being destroyed by telepathic attacks.

Put up evidence countering this or concede. That simple.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

You can hurt an immortal person's soul, you just can't *kill* them. That's the key perk of being immortal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Are you literally incapable of keeping up with the current tangent? Seiya doesn't have to physically kill Zamasu to beat him, the destruction of his soul will make him unable to continue fighting.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

You can beat his soul up, you just can't beat it to death.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

He can destroy it, which removes Zamasu's ability to fight. You going on like a broken record won't change that.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

You can't *destroy* his soul because it would result in his death, which is not possible since he wished to be immortal *and not physically invulnerable.

See, in Dragon Ball, if a body has no soul, they are dead.*

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Brolypotence (Nov 11, 2016)

Immortality means U can't be killed simple, if Saint Seiya immortal characters can be soul fucked then that's their problem it doesn't necessarily mean the same would happen in DB. Unless Akira Toriyama wrote DB, did he ?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> You can't *destroy* his soul because it would result in his death, which is not possible since he wished to be immortal *and not physically invulnerable.*



You're a broken record. He can destroy his soul without physically killing him. The body can function without a mind or brain activity, the same applies with the soul. You have no new arguments to add, you have no evidence supporting your claims, you have nothing to bring to the table here.

Hakai shows he can be fucked over from Beers, Occham Razor indicates he has no special defenses against soul attacks. That simple.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Juub (Nov 11, 2016)

I'll gladly concede Zamasu is merely physically immortal once we know the spcefics of the wish. Until then he is just immortal.

Edit: Lol the body cannot exist without the soul in DB. It has been established destroying the soul erases one from existence. You're moving the goal posts Fang. At first it was he can be killed him by destroying his soul. Now destroying his soul won't kill him lol.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Brolypotence (Nov 11, 2016)

Juub said:


> I'll gladly concede Zamasu is merely physically immortal once we know the spceficis of the wish. Until then he is just immortal.


U know wuts the correct way of doing this 
- Zamasu is immortal and can't be killed unless there is an implication of him being vulnerable to soul manipulation.

Just because Saint Seiya has shit immortality doesn't mean DB will have it too.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> U know wuts the correct way of doing this
> - Zamasu is immortal and can't be killed unless there is an implication of him being vulnerable to soul manipulation.
> 
> Just because Saint Seiya has shit immortality doesn't mean DB will have it too.



What are you babbling about? Zamasu has never shown resistance to soul or mind attacks so why would we assume he has that even with immortality when there has never been a case of that been showing even for those who posses immortality in Dragon Ball? You don't get to assume he "does" simply because you want him to.

Are you next going to make a nonsense groundless claim that Zamasu is going to survive Cronos?

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Holy shit! Horrifically HUGE leap in logic, right here!

Everyone hear this?! If you can be brain dead, you can be soul dead and not just dead! A body without a soul isn't dead, it's alive like robot or something.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Horrifically HUGE leap in logic, right here. Everyone hear this?! If you can be brain dead, you can be soul dead! A body with out a soul isn't dead, it's alive, like robot.



Intentionally misinterpreting my post won't make your claims any more feasible that prevent Zamasu from having his soul destroyed by God Cloth Seiya. Kind of a pathetic strawman tbqh, just like your shitty AIDS exampe post from earlier. But I'll break it down even more simply: he might be physically immortal, but nothing is safeguarding his soul or mind. That simple.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Not shitty at all. I'm all for Vegito bypassing Zamasu's immortality by giving him AIDS. I mean, an attack that gives people STDs is pretty _exotic_ and since Zamasu has never be hit with an STD, we can't be sure his immortality gives him full coverage.

Could that by why Zammy's all purple and shit next episode?!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Nonsensical exaggeration, hyperbole, strawman, no limits fallacy abuse, you're posts really are worthless to bother replying to. So once more: give evidence Zamasu's soul can't be destroyed or concede the argument.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

I can't prove a negative. I can't proves he's resistant diabetes, either. I guess you win.

Stupid immortality.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Good to know I just can filter out your posts since I have adequate enough posts from youto see you aren't capable of anything but wanking.  So consensus is Seiya destroys Zamasu's soul, he can't win. And lacks the DC to finish off Seiya or the speed to touch him.

Next.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

Wasnt that argument droppednwhen future zamasu didnt get killed with hakai


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Wasnt that argument droppednwhen future zamasu didnt get killed with hakai



Time ring.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Wasnt that argument droppednwhen future zamasu didnt get killed with hakai


You would think so. Since the Zamasu without the Time Ring survived, too.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> Time ring.


Didnt notice future zamasu have a time ring..

Was it said by someone in this thread?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> Speaking of which didn't Asmita in the LC Gaiden beat a Specter who had mastered the 8th Sense?


Yeah he did. Killed the fucker so hard he removed him from the wheel of reincarnation.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

Does he have or not?if he does not he can definitely survive soul technigues and if not its up for interpretation

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Yeah he did. Killed the fucker so hard he removed him from the wheel of reincarnation.


In dragonball when you die you dont reincarnate you become a movie


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Didnt notice future zamasu have a time ring..



Look harder.



GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Yeah he did. Killed the fucker so hard he removed him from the wheel of reincarnation.



So God Cloth Seiya  > Asmita, correct?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Toaa said:


> Didnt notice future zamasu have a time ring..



He doesn't. . .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

No pictures show zamasu having a time ring only black

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> He doesn't have a Time Ring. . .


What i also noticed

Reactions: Winner 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Nov 11, 2016)

Fang said:


> Look harder.
> 
> 
> 
> So God Cloth Seiya  > Asmita, correct?


Yeah, he should still be >>>>>Asmita due to the hierarchy of god cloths being >>>>>Goldies

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Nov 11, 2016)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Yeah, he should still be >>>>>Asmita due to the hierarchy of god cloths being >>>>>Goldies



Naturally yeah that makes sense.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 11, 2016)

Toaa said:


> What i also noticed


 

They make sure to show Black has one, like you said.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Toaa (Nov 11, 2016)

So probably future zamasu also hqs resistance to soul hax

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Bad Wolf (Nov 11, 2016)

Anyway, immortality is abused in fiction. I think it's right to ask for proof about that. Even with Zamasu immortality can fall to NLF, or not? Like putting him against some multiversal DC or stuff like that

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Brolypotence (Nov 11, 2016)

What's the meaning of immortality if the user dies

>Is immortal
>Dies

Lol Saint Seiya trolling us since 1985

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## neoacacia (Nov 11, 2016)

You guys are implying a massive nlf. Effectively saying even toaa, lt or galactus wouldn't be able to kill blackmasu because he is "lul" immortal. Divine saints take this.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## God Movement (Nov 11, 2016)

Did you just steal Endless Mike's sig

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## neoacacia (Nov 11, 2016)




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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 11, 2016)

wew fucking lad

what is this monstrosity of a thread?

I'll tell you what it is, fucking locked.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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