# RSM Naruto VS Juudara



## Deer Lord (Jan 23, 2015)

*Location:* Nardo & sauce VS Juudara
*Intel:* Same as in canon when they first confronted each other
*Mindset:* IC
*Distance:* 30m
*Stipulations:* This is Post shinju Juudara.
Immortality is off for madz so naruto doesn't have to seal him, he does however retain his regen so he can recover lost body parts.
Basically to kill madara naruto has to either completely destroy his body or his brain (He'll still regenerate as a beheaded head, albiet not as fast).
Mechs are restricted for naruto as well as gathering the natural energy of the world.
Both start with 10 Gudodamas.

Scenario 1: Madara has 1 Rinnegan
Scenario 2: Madara has 1 Rinnegan and Kakashi's MS Eye
Scenario 3: Madara has 2 Rinnegan and the Rinne-sharingan. Naruto has no restrictions in this fight.

Who swings these balls better?


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## tkpirate (Jan 23, 2015)

well,Naruto dosen't really need to completely destroy his body or brain.he can still seal him as he sealed Madara's Limbo clone.

Naruto wins scenario 1.

Naruto will have some problems in scenario 2 because of Kamui.

Naruto should win scenario 3 with his Ashura megazord.


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## Kai (Jan 23, 2015)

1. Madara wins. Naruto said Madara was stupid to think he was fighting Madara alone. Without Naruto's mecha, he's not beating a fresh Madara who had just absorbed the Shinju.
2. Singular Kamui makes no difference in this fight. Madara wins with the same difficulty.
3. Mugen Tsukuyomi solos as Sasuke stated to Naruto.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2015)

> Scenario 1: Madara has 1 Rinnegan


Naruto destroys him, and madara uses uchiha art of run. 



> Scenario 2: Madara has 1 Rinnegan and Kakashi's MS Eye


He loses the same difficulty. The Kid was able to even speedblitzes Kaguya who was stated to be in a completely different level than madara at his full power. 



> Scenario 2: Madara has 2 Rinnegan and the Rinne-sharingan. Naruto has no restrictions in this fight.


Madara still loses, as he is still not in the same level as Kaguya, which the kid was pretty much holding his own against her.


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## sabre320 (Jan 23, 2015)

naruto was performing very welll against kaguya someone far above madara he can make a thousand rsm clones while madara can make 5 limbo clones....madara has nothing to counter narutos ashura avatar naruto is not going to let madara prep eternal tsukyomi


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## Hachibi (Jan 23, 2015)

Naruto didn't hold his own against Kaguya. He needed to trick her time and time again because he's obviously outclassed


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## Legendary Itachi (Jan 23, 2015)

As if Crapguya deserves any credit after getting hit by Sakura.


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## sabre320 (Jan 23, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> As if Crapguya deserves any credit after getting hit by Sakura.



ya and madara was oneshotted by blackzetsu


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## sabre320 (Jan 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto didn't hold his own against Kaguya. He needed to trick her time and time again because he's obviously outclassed



Ya like when he ripped her arm off blitzed her and caused her to become so unstable as to lose her form kaguya couldn't kill naruto even without sasuke he out powered her with the steam release..lets not pretend he didnt perform very well


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto didn't hold his own against Kaguya. He needed to trick her time and time again because he's obviously outclassed


ِAnd his brain is not part of him? 


Legendary Itachi said:


> As if Crapguya deserves any credit after getting hit by Sakura.



Despite Lee fodderstomped him with 1-kick?
Or Kaguya using Black Zetsu to use him, and then 1-shot him as a piece of garbage? 
Not as if madara did not get hit by Tsunade either. lol


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## Legendary Itachi (Jan 23, 2015)

^ Don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine to see Naruto slapping that ugly bitch to death. Though I'd rather take EoS Sasuke for more solid arguments for Naruto instead of this incompetent goddess.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2015)

Well, she trashed Sasuke every time he tried to does something, so...


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## Hachibi (Jan 23, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Ya like when he ripped her arm off blitzed her and caused her to become so unstable as to lose her form kaguya couldn't kill naruto even without sasuke he out powered her with the steam release..lets not pretend he didnt perform very well



I admit that blitzing her is a good feat but speed isn't everything.

Naruto didn't make her unstable. The Bijuu's chakra in his attack did (and he didn't know that would happen)

Also, steam release didn't do shit to her.

@Hussain: Shikamaru is smarter than Obito, yet can he win against him?


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2015)

I do not see what does that have to do with anything. Naruto does not lack power. So, I do not see how does your example work.


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## sabre320 (Jan 23, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I admit that blitzing her is a good feat but speed isn't everything.
> 
> Naruto didn't make her unstable. The Bijuu's chakra in his attack did (and he didn't know that would happen)
> 
> ...



Ya speeds not everything but naruto has better durability feats then madara better firepower better speedfeats thousand  clones compared to madaras 5 madara was nearly killed by night gai narutos avatar is on another level


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## Deer Lord (Jan 23, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> well,Naruto dosen't really need to completely destroy his body or brain.he can still seal him as he sealed Madara's Limbo clone.


I don't think going for the seal is a smart move, madara pulled out of it with limbo switch when both nardo and sauce had him. 

IMO Naruto would beat madara with high difficulty in scenario 1.
Scenarios 2 and 3 can go either way.

Also I wouldn't bet on kamui being a non-factor.
Powered by juubi chakra madara should be able to spam it to warp away incoming attacks
He was quick enough about it to escape sasuke before the latter could land a follow-up shot, so he should be fine with nardo.

And I don't think madara is getting blitzed here either, he was blocking naruto's attcacks with limbo and whatnot a couple of times in their fight.
-----------------------------------

Oh naruto tricking shitguya isn't impressive at all, she has the fighting strategy of a 10 year old 
black zetsu was bossing her around all fight, not to mention she only decided to kill nardo and sauce about three quarters into the fight


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2015)

And she still trolled madara his entire life, so he is even less than her. 
and I don't remember him using any strategy whatsoever either.


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## Deer Lord (Jan 23, 2015)

Kaguya never trolled any one, it was all BZ


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## Punished Pathos (Jan 23, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> As if Crapguya deserves any credit after getting hit by Sakura.



Kaguya didn't have enough chakra to teleport 

When are you people gonna read the manga and figure out that Kaguya wasted too much chakra teleporting between dimensions to evade attacks? 

Anyways, Naruto takes this, High diff.


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## Trojan (Jan 23, 2015)

Which she sent to fool him. 

From 4th DB


> Main Body 1
> [The Plot of Resurrection] The scenario to resurrect Kaguya: it was bequeathed to Kuro Zetsu (Black Zetsu) on the verge (of when she was being) sealed. (The method) was described according to him. Kaguya was correct (in her prediction) in her grandchild about Indra’s negative sentiments, and used that to her advantage. She cleverly made use of those descendants, the Uchiha clan, who had an inferiority complex and a desire for revenge. In the rewritten epitaph that was left behind by the Rikudou Sennin, it lead Madara to the “Infinite Tsukuyomi”. When it seemed as though Madara’s dream was fulfilled, in his aim for a deceptive paradise on Earth, the tabooed gate was opened wide, and the fallen Goddess descended.



Yeah, she fooled the entire clan for 1000 year. :rofl


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## Deer Lord (Jan 23, 2015)

Kaguya just gave him a general plan, the really clever (or bullshit, depends on how you view it) machinations used by BZ were his own idea, as kaguya kinda couldn't really guide him while being sealed in the moon


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## Hachibi (Jan 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I do not see what does that have to do with anything. Naruto does not lack power. So, I do not see how does your example work.



Naruto lack power compared to her, which was my entire point.



sabre320 said:


> Ya speeds not everything but naruto has better durability feats then madara better firepower better speedfeats thousand  clones compared to madaras 5 madara was nearly killed by night gai narutos avatar is on another level



Durability feat form Naruto:
-Took Limbo
-Took the shockwave of the clash between his and Kaguya's fists
-Took Sasuke's Fireball and Chidori
-Dealt with Toneri's Moon Cutter

Against Madara's:
-Took EE with minor damage
-Survived the space distorting Night Gai
-Took Naruto's YRS (which cut the Shinju) without dying
-Survived Sasuke's Amenojikara
-Limbo took Sasuke's Black Chidori, Naruto's Magnetic Rasengan before it seal him and Sakura's punch

Naruto doesn't have superior firepower unless he absorb the planet's natural energy.

Also Quality >>> Quantity


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## Hachibi (Jan 23, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Kaguya just gave him a general plan, the really clever (or bullshit, depends on how you view it) machinations used by BZ were his own idea, as kaguya kinda couldn't really guide him while being sealed in the moon



She wasn't just sealed but depowered and mindless as well


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## Empathy (Jan 23, 2015)

Madara only wins the last round, due to _Mugen Tsukuyomi_. The first two, Naruto stomps him.


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## Deer Lord (Jan 23, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Ya speeds not everything but naruto has better durability feats then madara better firepower better speedfeats thousand  clones compared to madaras 5 madara was nearly killed by night gai narutos avatar is on another level


Mechs are restricted for rounds 1 & 2.


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## Kyu (Jan 23, 2015)

*3-Eyed Juubi Madara > RSM Naruto >> One-eyed Juubi Madara



*w/ _Mugen Tsukuyomi_


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## Bonly (Jan 23, 2015)

If this is Madara who won't use a shitload of his abilities for some unknown reason then Naruto would prolly win but if this is Madara actually using a shitload of his abilities then I'd favor him to win.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 23, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> naruto was performing very welll against kaguya someone far above madara he can make a thousand rsm clones while madara can make 5 limbo clones....madara has nothing to counter narutos ashura avatar naruto is not going to let madara prep eternal tsukyomi



Wasn't Madara able to make like 25 Mokuton Bunshins in his much weaker Edo Madara form? He can also use KBs as he used one to fool people that he was still dead.

With Juubi's chakra it would hardly be surprising if Madara could use 1000s of clones too. And if PIS is fully off then he can use ST too to deal with clones coming at him from all sides as he taught Obito the Six Path technique and so knows all of Nagato's jutsus. Juubi powered mokuton is no joke either.

And unlike with Juubito's intangibility it was never stated that Madara couldn't use PS anymore after becoming a JJ. With 2 Rinnegans, Hashi's DNA, Juubi and Shinju, Madara's PS should be at least as strong as Sasuke's God Susanoo.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto destroys him, and madara uses uchiha art of run.
> 
> 
> He loses the same difficulty. The Kid was able to even speedblitzes Kaguya who was stated to be in a completely different level than madara at his full power.
> ...



This. Naruto wins every scenario.


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## ARGUS (Jan 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> 1. Madara wins. Naruto said Madara was stupid to think he was fighting Madara alone. Without Naruto's mecha, he's not beating a fresh Madara who had just absorbed the Shinju.
> 2. Singular Kamui makes no difference in this fight. Madara wins with the same difficulty.


Feats seriously say otherwise, 
madara gets mid diffd by RSM naruto, and stomped by Ashura avatar naruto

OT - Naruto comfortably wins the first 2 scenarios, 
whilst Madara wins the last scenario thanks to IT


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## Zef (Jan 23, 2015)

Naruto negs all scenarios. 

I see no reason why he can't defeat Madara before he attempts to use Infinite Tsukuyomi.


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## Kai (Jan 23, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Feats seriously say otherwise,
> madara gets mid diffd by RSM naruto, and stomped by Ashura avatar naruto


How does he get mid diffed by RSM Naruto? What of Naruto did Madara not handle? OP already restricted Naruto's "mechs."



			
				ARGUS said:
			
		

> OT - Naruto comfortably wins the first 2 scenarios,
> whilst Madara wins the last scenario thanks to IT


Naruto told Madara he's not fighting him alone and called him stupid for it.

Madara was on a different level after he absorbed the Shinju, in contrast to Naruto knocking him down with a single Rasenshuriken before even entering RSM.


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## ueharakk (Jan 23, 2015)

Assuming Naruto is as skillful with his abilities as he was at the end of VoTe, he sweeps all three.  If this is noob Rikudou Naruto who doesn't even know how to fly, then I can see him maybe losing the last scenario if Madara pulls off MT.  He still wins the other two considering he won't have any friends to protect, and he'll get better and better with his new powers as the fight continues.

*BTW Kai, Naruto said "we will" in response to Madara saying that Naruto can't beat him because he's completely immortal...  Which makes sense since naruto needs sasuke in order to seal madara.


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## sabre320 (Jan 24, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Naruto lack power compared to her, which was my entire point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Madara was cut in half by a sword slash from sasuke he was pierced by black zetsu....naruto tanked the same chidori that is superior to said sword slash.... each of narutos clones was easily matching the limbo clones so ur quality argument is laughable.........

naruto was casually throwing 6 bijudama rasenshurikens once he uses his avatar its not even close madaras chibaku tensei and meteors are useless against narutos speed whats madaras strongest attack? his firepower is inferior hell narutos clones can use the avatars


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## Kai (Jan 24, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> *BTW Kai, Naruto said "we will" in response to Madara saying that Naruto can't beat him because he's completely immortal...  Which makes sense since naruto needs sasuke in order to seal madara.


He also needs Sasuke to beat Madara, which this manga has shown goes in hand with having to seal him. Madara even named both of their powers in his self before the fight began, indicating the importance of both of their *power*.

You guys are nuts. What's essentially being said is when Sasuke arrived alongside Naruto, Sasuke was in fact not needed except to seal Madara? The manga never entertained that fantasy.


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## ueharakk (Jan 24, 2015)

Kai said:


> He also needs Sasuke to beat Madara, which this manga has shown goes in hand with having to seal him. Madara even named both of their powers in his self before the fight began, indicating the importance of both of their *power*.


it's like you just chose to ignore what I just typed.  The context of their conversation was about Madara being unbeatable due to his immortality, hence Madara claiming "You can't defeat me, I'm immortal I'll live forever" to which Naruto responds "I won't defeat you, we will."

What did madara claiming he had both of their powers had to do with anything?  He thought he was stronger than both of them combined because he had 'the rinnegan' and 'rikudou's senjutsu' yet was utterly trashed in the next chapter against a severely holding back naruto and sasuke.  Then there's the fact that Madara treated both of those powers equally, yet we know the Sasuke who fought alongside naruto wasn't at naruto's level which is why he needed the 9 bijuu in order to match him at VoTe.  




Kai said:


> You guys are nuts. What's essentially being said is when Sasuke arrived alongside Naruto, Sasuke was in fact not needed except to seal Madara? The manga never entertained that fantasy.


Kai, you're the one who's completely off his rocker.  The manga didn't just imply that, it SCREAMED that to the readers when it had a Naruto and Sasuke who are so noob with their new powers that one doesn't even know how to fly and both use nothing compared to what they use against Kaguya/VoTe utterly destroying that Madara.  It screamed that to the readers when it had to give that madara several powerup in the form of an additional rinnegan, the sharinnegan, and then incomparably greater chakra in order for Naruto and Sasuke to go all out.

If Sasuke was actually needed to defeat one eye'd rinnegan madara, Naruto wouldn't have been able to hold his own against and even push back an opponent who's 2 entire transformations above that Madara.  By both feats, hype/portrayal that madara gets utterly destroyed by Naruto alone, possibly even Sasuke.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 24, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Madara was cut in half by a sword slash from sasuke he was pierced by black zetsu....naruto tanked the same chidori that is superior to said sword slash.... each of narutos clones was easily matching the limbo clones so ur quality argument is laughable.........
> 
> naruto was casually throwing 6 bijudama rasenshurikens once he uses his avatar its not even close madaras chibaku tensei and meteors are useless against narutos speed whats madaras strongest attack? his firepower is inferior hell narutos clones can use the avatars



Errr, Sasuke's Black Chidori didn't pierce Madara in half. It only shocked him a bit while Naruto's rasengan was sealing him. So why would a normal chidori be superior to said sword slash? And Black Zetsu piercing him does not mean he couldn't do the same to others. Did anyone casually tank such stab from Black Zetsu?

Naruto can run out of bijuudama rasenshurikens as they seem dependent on his guoudamas. Madara can drastically diminish Naruto's firepower with those meteors.

And again...what prevents Madara from using PS in his JJ form? Nothing was stated that he couldn't. And since he got the power of all bijuus + Shinju+ both Rinnegan eyes then his PS should be as strong as Sasuke's God Susanoo if not more.


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## ueharakk (Jan 24, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Errr, Sasuke's Black Chidori didn't pierce Madara in half. It only shocked him a bit while Naruto's rasengan was sealing him. So why would a normal chidori be superior to said sword slash? And Black Zetsu piercing him does not mean he couldn't do the same to others. Did anyone casually tank such stab from Black Zetsu?


he said the chidori sword sliced madara in half, an attack that is weaker than a chidori stab.  Black chidori didn't pierce madara because it hit the limbo.



Arles Celes said:


> Naruto can run out of bijuudama rasenshurikens as they seem dependent on his guoudamas. Madara can drastically diminish Naruto's firepower with those meteors.


Without anyone to protect on the battlefield, naruto doesn't even nee to use anything against those meteors, he just dodges them, or slices them apart with a tail since his tail slaps = Sasuke's PS sword slashes.



Arles Celes said:


> And again...what prevents Madara from using PS in his JJ form? Nothing was stated that he couldn't. And since he got the power of all bijuus + Shinju+ both Rinnegan eyes then his PS should be as strong as Sasuke's God Susanoo if not more.


Why would madara's PS be as powerful as Sasuke's after he combined it with the bijuu?  Seems like you're just arbitrarily giving madara a certain level of power.   Plus I doubt juubi jins can even use susanoo since susanoo is suppose to be the equivalent of GM, thus using that ability and GM at the same time are not possible.

Kaguya had the byakugan, the sharinnegan, the shinjuu, all bijuus and incomparably more chakra than madara did, yet naruto's normal mech wouldn't be far behind her mech considering he's able to chakra arm clash with her which means his asura mech would be on par or above hers (at least before she absorbed chakra the second time).


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## Arles Celes (Jan 24, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Why would madara's PS be as powerful as Sasuke's after he combined it with the bijuu?  Seems like you're just arbitrarily giving madara a certain level of power.   Plus I doubt juubi jins can even use susanoo since susanoo is suppose to be the equivalent of GM, thus using that ability and GM at the same time are not possible.
> 
> Kaguya had the byakugan, the sharinnegan, the shinjuu, all bijuus and incomparably more chakra than madara did, yet naruto's normal mech wouldn't be far behind her mech considering he's able to chakra arm clash with her which means his asura mech would be on par or above hers (at least before she absorbed chakra the second time).



Madara got Six Path Senjutsu which Sasuke lacks. And his power source is both the Juubi and Shinju's real body. It wouldn't be surprising if his PS could match or even exceed Sasuke's God PS. It all depends how much chakra would Madara be willing to put into PS. Sasuke didn't completely absorb all bijuus into his PS as they were still in the CTs. How much chakra he took and how much chakra Madara could put into PS...that is the question.

Still...Madara PS should exceed Sasuke's regular non bijuu powered PS which could be too much for Naruto unless he gathers all of the world energy again. It depends if Madara would allow Naruto to do that and how IC is for Naruto to rely on that given that he didn't do so against Kaguya...

And yeah Naruto could chakra clash with Kaguya but was overpowered almost immediately. It was kinda like Ino taking control over Obito for a few seconds before being overpowered. Naruto himself stated before Kaguya's power up that the only way to fight her was through diversions and taijutsu. That is why he did not use mechas against her. 

Though maybe a Ashura mech powered with all the nature energy from the whole world could do. How does all of the nature energy compare to the chakra that Kaguya got from MT victims?

I'm not sure anymore if Naruto was under PIS by not trying to pull off that mass nature gathering against Kaguya or if that whole nature of the world absorption was PNJ in itself. Sasuke performing some sort of reverse Creation of All things despite not practicing it in any way before also kinda fall into it...


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## Kai (Jan 24, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> it's like you just chose to ignore what I just typed.  The context of their conversation was about Madara being unbeatable due to his immortality, hence Madara claiming "You can't defeat me, I'm immortal I'll live forever" to which Naruto responds "I won't defeat you, we will."
> 
> What did madara claiming he had both of their powers had to do with anything?


Including Sasuke's power is part of that context and shows Sasuke's equal contribution to Naruto in that fight.

mada: you will not be able to defeat me\\
mada: you can say that I am immortal\\ I have obtained eternity\\
naru: you idiot!!\\
naru: I will not defeat you…\\
naru: we will defeat you!!\\

mada: you awakened the sage techniques of the six paths and…\\
mada: you have awakened a rinnegan, huh…\\
mada: but…\\ I am a being that has both of those powers!\\

The manga makes it clear Sasuke was as important as Naruto and wasn't just an extra like you imply. The manga has also made it clear that the opponent needs to be beaten in battle in order for sealing to take place. 

You really think "Naruto was more than enough, Sasuke just showed up as a +1 for sealing" makes more sense than that?



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> He thought he was stronger than both of them combined because he had 'the rinnegan' and 'rikudou's senjutsu' yet was utterly trashed in the next chapter against a severely holding back naruto and sasuke.


Nobody denied this. Naruto and Sasuke trashed Madara, so what? It doesn't change the fact that Naruto needed Sasuke for that performance. 

The opponent doesn't have be close to a power that is necessary for them to lose. Kakashi's Kamui was necessary against Obito's Kamui, yet once they implemented it in the fight wasn't even close for Obito. The 7th Gate was needed to defeat Kisame, yet once unleashed Kisame was utterly annihilated.

Naruto needed Sasuke and trashed a one-eyed Madara. 



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> Kai, you're the one who's completely off his rocker.  The manga didn't just imply that, it SCREAMED that to the readers when it had a Naruto and Sasuke who are so noob with their new powers that one doesn't even know how to fly and both use nothing compared to what they use against Kaguya/VoTe utterly destroying that Madara.  It screamed that to the readers when it had to give that madara several powerup in the form of an additional rinnegan, the sharinnegan, and then incomparably greater chakra in order for Naruto and Sasuke to go all out.


Almost everything Naruto displayed at VOTE2 is restricted in OP so that doesn't deserve a response. Kakashi and even Sakura in a favorable circumstance got a clean hit on Kaguya, so I don't doubt Madara could land a hit on her in some fashion despite her being on a completely different level. Kaguya already had Naruto and Sasuke utterly defeated twice at the start if it weren't for Obito's actions, so Naruto "holding his own" against Kaguya is given far more weight by advocates and fans when there should be no illusion that Kaguya is in fact tiers above Naruto.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 24, 2015)

Well, it all comes down how IC both character will fight and how much below their potential ability it would put them.

If Naruto only uses bijuudamas to counter other high chakra powered attacks or/and meteors, won't use more than 5 clones -unless Kurama gathers chakra for him to use more clones first-  and does not rely on mechas...

And if Madara does not use mokuton, PS, most of his Rinnegan abilities nor Rinne Sharingan and just throws gudoudamas with some taijutsu and a Limbo clone or two in between...

Then the fight might last forever LOL.


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## RedChidori (Jan 24, 2015)

Bonly said:


> If this is Madara who won't use a shitload of his abilities for some unknown reason then Naruto would prolly win but if this is Madara actually using a shitload of his abilities then I'd favor him to win.



This exactly.


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## Raiken (Jan 24, 2015)

It was specifically emphasised that it would take both Naruto and Sasuke, AND the ability to Seal him, to defeat Madara.

Madara wins, with Very High Difficulty in Scenario 1 and 2.
Madara wins, with Medium Difficulty in Scenario 3.


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## ueharakk (Jan 24, 2015)

Kai said:


> Including Sasuke's power is part of that context and shows Sasuke's equal contribution to Naruto in that fight.
> 
> mada: you will not be able to defeat me\\
> mada: you can say that I am immortal\\ I have obtained eternity\\
> ...


So this is literally proving my point.  Madara says "you will not be able to defeat me".  He then immediately says "I am immortal, I have obtained eternity" which means the context of the statement "you will not be able to defeat me" is due to him being immortal. 

The manga did make it clear that sasuke was as 'important' as naruto was as neither of them couldn't have defeated madara alone due to him being immortal.  What does madara needing to be beating in battle in order to be sealed have to do with anything?  Their goal is to seal madara, not to beat him in battle, if one can beat madara in battle, yet can't seal him then they haven't met their goal and thus madara's word stands that they can't defeat him because he's immortal.



Kai said:


> You really think "Naruto was more than enough, Sasuke just showed up as a +1 for sealing" makes more sense than that?


...um obviously yes, and we are given TONS of reasons to believe that later on.  If the manga was still only on chapter 673, and in which case Naruto and Sasuke were completely featless, Madara didn't go through any powerups, Kaguya didn't appear, and all we had to go by were Naruto and Sasuke are teaming up to face madara, then sure you could make the claim that the end of the previous chapter implied that they were both needed.  However, the later chapters provide overwhelming evidence that that wasn't the case.



Kai said:


> Nobody denied this. Naruto and Sasuke trashed Madara, so what? It doesn't change the fact that Naruto needed Sasuke for that performance.


Same reasoning as above, the only way it's implied is if you blind yourself from the rest of the manga and pretend the manga is still on chapter 673.  Just two chapters after, naruto showed that his mere clones were capable of fighting each of madara's limbos.  In 674, naruto dealt with one of madara's limbos while sasuke trashed limbo-less madara.  If Naruto and Sasuke are equals, naruto makes 2 clones which destroy Madara's limbo all the while the real does what sasuke did and trashes the real Madara.  



Kai said:


> The opponent doesn't have be close to a power that is necessary for them to lose. Kakashi's Kamui was necessary against Obito's Kamui, yet once they implemented it in the fight wasn't even close for Obito. The 7th Gate was needed to defeat Kisame, yet once unleashed Kisame was utterly annihilated.
> 
> Naruto needed Sasuke and trashed a one-eyed Madara.


In both of those cases, kamui and the 7th gate hirudorah were the natural and perfect counters for the opponent's moves.  Sasuke didn't add any of that against Madara since Naruto could sense and deal with the limbos as well as damage madara.  And of course, both Kamui and 7th gated hirudorah are supported by the actual feats and happenings in the manga, while the oppositive would be the case for Naruto needing Sasuke to trash one-eyed Madara.



Kai said:


> Almost everything Naruto displayed at VOTE2 is restricted in OP so that doesn't deserve a response. Kakashi and even Sakura in a favorable circumstance got a clean hit on Kaguya, so I don't doubt Madara could land a hit on her in some fashion despite her being on a completely different level. *Kaguya already had Naruto and Sasuke utterly defeated twice at the start if it weren't for Obito's actions, so Naruto "holding his own" against Kaguya is given far more weight by advocates and fans when there should be no illusion that Kaguya is in fact tiers above Naruto.*


It's necessary for you to take into account VoTe2 Naruto's displays since you're argument is by pure subjective portrayal of only chapter 673 which has you saying that outside of this thread and in the manga, Naruto couldn't have beaten 1 eye'd post shinjuu madara on his own.  The fact that portrayal at the end of 673 would have you believe that naruto and sasuke at that point were equals despite the manga showing that sasuke needs a massive powerup in order to get on naruto's level shows how incorrect your subjective and narrowminded portrayal argument is.

Next, Sakura landing a hit on kaguya when she's occupied by Naruto, Kakashi and Sasuke is completely irrelevant.  Kakashi landed a single hit on Kaguya due purely to her lack of intel on his new abilities, Naruto actually fought Kaguya 1 vs 1 for multiple chapters your comparisons are completely disingenuous.  

The bolded aren't even positives for your case.  Why did Kaguya have naruto and Sasuke utterly defeated?  Because she seperated them right?  Well that has absolutely nothing to do with Naruto vs Kaguya immortality off since the only reason she auto wins once putting sasuke into the dimension is because he's needed to seal her.  Even if Naruto was more powerful than Kaguya 1 vs 1, it's still an autowin for her, so kaguya winning by that regard has no bearing on our discussion.  
Secondly, what does Kaguya beating both naruto and sasuke have to do with our discussion?  I never said Naruto was as powerful as Kaguya only that he could fight on par with her.


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## ueharakk (Jan 24, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara got Six Path Senjutsu which Sasuke lacks. And his power source is both the Juubi and Shinju's real body.* It wouldn't be surprising if his PS could match or even exceed Sasuke's God PS*. It all depends how much chakra would Madara be willing to put into PS. Sasuke didn't completely absorb all bijuus into his PS as they were still in the CTs. How much chakra he took and how much chakra Madara could put into PS...that is the question.


Again, I don't see why you jump to the bolded.  Madara didn't get hagoromo's yin chakra, he didn't have the sharinnegan, was never stated to be on Hagoromo's level, he's never shown the skill Sasuke has with his PS like using actual techniques through it or housing the 9 bijuu's chakra in it.  

If the manga was actually about a > b > c logic when it comes to rikudou's powers, base Naruto would have never wrecked pre-shinjuu madara since madara has way more bijuu chakra than even full powered naruto, has hashirama's senjutsu and chakra, and the rinnegan.



Arles Celes said:


> Still...*Madara PS should exceed Sasuke's regular non bijuu powered PS which could be too much for Naruto unless he gathers all of the world energy again.* It depends if Madara would allow Naruto to do that and how IC is for Naruto to rely on that given that he didn't do so against Kaguya...
> 
> And yeah Naruto could chakra clash with Kaguya but was overpowered almost immediately. It was kinda like Ino taking control over Obito for a few seconds before being overpowered. Naruto himself stated before Kaguya's power up that the only way to fight her was through diversions and taijutsu. That is why he did not use mechas against her.


Why?  I don't see any reason to believe the bolded especially since naruto was able to fight on par with Sasuke's bijuu PS with 3 clones, and he still has the ashura mech which doesn't require all the natural energy in the world.  If Naruto wanted to, he could have stomped sasuke's nonbijuu PS w/o gathering all the natural energy in the region.  

Clashing chakra arms has absolutely nothing to do with how long ino puts someone under mind/body switch.  If you want to put it in mind/body switch terms, it would be if ino and obito both used the techniques on the same person, yet produced comparable results.  Chakra arms vs chakra arms is techniqu vs technique, mind/body switch vs Obito is technique vs person.  If the power of the chakra arms were greatly different, naruto won't be able to stop any of the fists with his own.

I don't understand what Naruto not using a mech on her has to do with my argument.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Again, I don't see why you jump to the bolded.  Madara didn't get hagoromo's yin chakra, he didn't have the sharinnegan, was never stated to be on Hagoromo's level, he's never shown the skill Sasuke has with his PS like using actual techniques through it or housing the 9 bijuu's chakra in it.
> 
> If the manga was actually about a > b > c logic when it comes to rikudou's powers, base Naruto would have never wrecked pre-shinjuu madara since madara has way more bijuu chakra than even full powered naruto, has hashirama's senjutsu and chakra, and the rinnegan.
> 
> ...



Madara got Six Path chakra as a Juubi Jin. Sasuke's and Naruto's great feats stem from said chakra too which they got from RS while Madara got it from Juubi. Obito got no Six Path chakra from RS and yet he could transfer said chakra to Kakashi after stealing a bit from Madara. 

Also Madara got Rinne Sharingan which should be at least equal to Sasuke's Sharinnegan.Its the same eye that Kaguya herself got. And Madara was stated by Hagoromo himself to be getting close to his level and trying to reach for Kaguya's power. That was before he got Shinju, his 2nd Rinnegan and Rinne Sharingan.

Regarding Madara's skill with PS most people here will argue that EMS Madara's PS > EMS Sasuke's PS. I do not necessarily agree with that though Madara's is bigger...

Do you believe that Madara with all those power ups did not get a great boost to his PS? Or you think he lost PS as a jin since he never actually used it?

Actually Naruto wasn't able to fight on par with Sasuke's bijuu PS as his BM clones were getting blitzed, his bijuudamas easily countered with mere senbon projectiles and his other attacks easily blocked. Him shouting to Kurama to do something in desperation(gather all that nature energy) hardly implied equality. They were only equal when Naruto combined those clones into Asura BM AND got all of the earth's nature energy. Even Asura BM without all that nature energy did not put Naruto's mecha on the same level as Sasuke's. As for how much it increased its power is anyone's guess. 

As for the Naruto/Kaguya chakra clash for how long it lasted? 2 seconds? 3? We saw them clashing with Naruto sweating and Kaguya grinning and then Naruto was overpowered in the next panel. Even Sasuke's PS was able to resist long enough after getting hit by all of her bijuu arms to deliver a sword swing before dissipating. But such short lived resistance was in BOTH cases just that: Short lived resistance. Neither really matched her. That is why I used the Obito Vs Ino comparison. Her attack was able to affect him for a few moments but it hardly implied that her mind control abilities were equal to Obito's mind control resistance.


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## Amol (Jan 25, 2015)

RSM Naruto is not loosing to Juudara.
His feats against Kaguya are better than that .


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## sabre320 (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara got Six Path chakra as a Juubi Jin. Sasuke's and Naruto's great feats stem from said chakra too which they got from RS while Madara got it from Juubi. Obito got no Six Path chakra from RS and yet he could transfer said chakra to Kakashi after stealing a bit from Madara.
> 
> Also Madara got Rinne Sharingan which should be at least equal to Sasuke's Sharinnegan.Its the same eye that Kaguya herself got. And Madara was stated by Hagoromo himself to be getting close to his level and trying to reach for Kaguya's power. That was before he got Shinju, his 2nd Rinnegan and Rinne Sharingan.
> 
> ...



While madara has both yin and yang naruto posseses stronger senjutsu then madara and  sasuke possesses greater yin power then madara stop giving madara feats he did not show he could not react to sasukes speed he was cut in half by sasukes sword strike naruto was performing very well against kaguya alone and even managed to overpower her with steam release he blitzed her and ripped her arm off this was someone far above madara


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> While madara has both yin and yang naruto posseses stronger senjutsu then madara and  sasuke possesses greater yin power then madara



Where was it stated?

Especially since I do not recall any Yin feat from Sasuke eclipsing Madara's. Sasuke got 9 bijuus in a genjutsu but Madara got the whole world.

As for Yang feats I'm not really sure what counts as one. If mokuton is such, then Madara mokuton'd the whole world too...


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## sabre320 (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Where was it stated?
> 
> Especially since I do not recall any Yin feat from Sasuke eclipsing Madara's. Sasuke got 9 bijuus in a genjutsu but Madara got the whole world.
> 
> As for Yang feats I'm not really sure what counts as one. If mokuton is such, then Madara mokuton'd the whole world too...



base senjutsu naruto practically roflstomped one eye juubidara.....he had to absorb shinju then was blitzed by sasuke and cut in half by sasuke with his sword....naruto tanked sasukes chidori and blitzed kaguya his body powers were greater...

juubito could also execute infinite tsukyomi does not mean he has greater senjutsu or yin then the duo...


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> base senjutsu naruto practically roflstomped one eye juubidara.....he had to absorb shinju then was blitzed by sasuke and cut in half by sasuke with his sword....naruto tanked sasukes chidori and blitzed kaguya his body powers were greater...
> 
> juubito could also execute infinite tsukyomi does not mean he has greater senjutsu or yin then the duo...



Madara was still healing from Night Guy and nevertheless able to react to Naruto's attack and block it with a gudoudama even though he commented on Naruto's strength increase. And his Limbo was hilariously badly matched against Naruto(and Sasuke too) since Naruto could sense it. Naruto's Lava FRS did not damage Madara that much tbh. Much less than Night Guy and Madara recovered rather fast. Madara was also unlucky and dumbed down as he only got one guodudama left and didn't bother trying to use neither Preta nor PS when Naruto used his possibly strongest FRS variant after Kurama's bijuu FRS.

As for Sasuke cutting him in half that could be due to Madara hardly bothering dodging as he was concerned only with getting to Obito's kamui dimension. He expressed neither shock nor fear and could see Sasuke coming even though he complimented his speed.

Regarding chidori, Sasuke never cut anyone in half with it and nowhere it was said that said sword is inferior to chidori. In fact Sasuke in his 2nd assault against Madara(when Sakura tried her luck) used said sword again. Why not use chidori if it really is superior?

Juubito could only execute MT via Shinju. As for his Yin it was unknown as he never used Genjutsu in said for form. 

Does Sasuke have better genjutsu feats than MT though?


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## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Regarding chidori, Sasuke never cut anyone in half with it and nowhere it was said that said sword is inferior to chidori. In fact Sasuke in his 2nd assault against Madara(when Sakura tried her luck) used said sword again. Why not use chidori if it really is superior?



i don't think one is superior than other.they both should have same piercing power.Sasuke uses his chidori with his sword when he wants to cut someone in half.he uses it with his hand when he just wants to stab someone.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> i don't think one is superior than other.they both should have same piercing power.Sasuke uses his chidori with his sword when he wants to cut someone in half.he uses it with his hand when he just wants to stab someone.



Yeah, but Sasuke's chidori is not always used for piercing but for an electric shock too. Like the one he used on himself when fighting Deidara to deal with C4. Hard to tell which version he decides to use. For example against Bee he used chidori on him but did not pierce him and yet was able to cut a Hachibi tentacle with a chidori sword something that the 3rd Raikage needed his nukite to accomplish. And Ei was pierced with chidori- even if Sasuke's fingers got only midway- despite having the same blood as the 3rd Raikage and being protected by a Raiton armor.


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## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Yeah, but Sasuke's chidori is not always used for piercing but for an electric shock too. Like the one he used on himself when fighting Deidara to deal with C4. Hard to tell which version he decides to use. For example against Bee he used chidori on him but did not pierce him and yet was able to cut a Hachibi tentacle with a chidori sword something that the 3rd Raikage needed his nukite to accomplish. And Ei was pierced with chidori- even if Sasuke's fingers got only midway- despite having the same blood as the 3rd Raikage and being protected by a Raiton armor.



well, he was trying to stab Naruto,it was mostly clear.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> well, he was trying to stab Naruto,it was mostly clear.



But if Naruto was stabbed then why was he thrown away such a distance as if he was punched?

And why did sparks come out of his body as those when Sasuke electrified his own body?
*heck he wasnt  even panting, and was even in his gated state after kisame got put down*
Link removed

Also when Sasuke uses chidori for piercing all of his fingers are sticking together except his thumb and are all straight.
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When he struck Naruto there were gaps between his fingers and there were not so straight
*heck he wasnt  even panting, and was even in his gated state after kisame got put down*

Though who knows...maybe he really wanted to pierce Naruto and Kishi can be a bit inconsistent at times. But Sasuke seems to prefer using his chakra sword over chidori even when it comes to piercing nowadays.
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To me it seemed as if he wanted to knock out Naruto so that he would finish him off with his arrows before Naruto recovered.


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## sabre320 (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara was still healing from Night Guy and nevertheless able to react to Naruto's attack and block it with a gudoudama even though he commented on Naruto's strength increase. And his Limbo was hilariously badly matched against Naruto(and Sasuke too) since Naruto could sense it. Naruto's Lava FRS did not damage Madara that much tbh. Much less than Night Guy and Madara recovered rather fast. Madara was also unlucky and dumbed down as he only got one guodudama left and didn't bother trying to use neither Preta nor PS when Naruto used his possibly strongest FRS variant after Kurama's bijuu FRS.
> 
> As for Sasuke cutting him in half that could be due to Madara hardly bothering dodging as he was concerned only with getting to Obito's kamui dimension. He expressed neither shock nor fear and could see Sasuke coming even though he complimented his speed.
> 
> ...



Are u joking mate why would sasuke add chidori to his sword if it has cutting power as chidori....chidori gatana is b rank chidori itself is a rank superior his sword bounced of ei and his chidori pierced him....

and madara himself stated it was not because he hadnt healed it was because of narutos power he could barely put a guard up perfectly react is laughable....naruto easily overpowered him and yrs damaged him massively he had to absorb shinju..
madara also executed mt through absorbing shinju what are madaras yin feats using mt...


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## sabre320 (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> But if Naruto was stabbed then why was he thrown away such a distance as if he was punched?
> 
> And why did sparks come out of his body as those when Sasuke electrified his own body?
> Link removed
> ...



So let me get this straight he wanted to stun him and then kill him by arrows when he can achieve the killing with the same piercing technique


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## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> But if Naruto was stabbed then why was he thrown away such a distance as if he was punched?


the force of the attack pushed him back,but it wasn't strong enough to pierce him.



> And why did sparks come out of his body as those when Sasuke electrified his own body?
> Link removed
> Link removed


that's most likely because he was hit by that Chidori.Sasuke in that fight against Deidara electrified his body to just defuse those small bombs.electrifying Naruto like that wouldn't do anything to Naruto.don't think Sasuke is this retarded.



> Also when Sasuke uses chidori for piercing all of his fingers are sticking together except his thumb and are all straight.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> When he struck Naruto there were gaps between his fingers and there were not so straight
> Link removed


it's just small inconsistency.there are many small inconsistency like that.



> Though who knows...maybe he really wanted to pierce Naruto and Kishi can be a bit inconsistent at times. But Sasuke seems to prefer using his chakra sword over chidori even when it comes to piercing nowadays.
> Link removed
> Link removed



nah,he can use both,but most time he prefers his hand to pierce things.he tried to pierce Madara with his hand.



> To me it seemed as if he wanted to knock out Naruto so that he would finish him off with his arrows before Naruto recovered.



we haven't seen Sasuke knock out anyone with a Chidori attack before.it's always a piercing or cutting attack.we have no reason to believe that he was trying to knock out Naruto.electrifying Naruto wouldn't knock him out,and Sasuke knows that,he isn't that retarded.


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## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

> nah,he can use both,but most time he prefers his hand to pierce things.he tried to pierce Madara with his hand.



Link removed


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> Link removed



Right, but it didn't seem as if Madara was actually pierced but just electrocuted.

Is Black Chidori weaker than Chidori sword?

Should we assume that Sasuke couldn't pierce Madara and the latter tanked the jutsu? That would make Madara's "tanking" feat similar if not better than Naruto's chidori "tanking" feat.

Though as you mentioned before if Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto with chidori then why did he not used the Black variant of the jutsu which by all means should be more powerful?



sabre320 said:


> So let me get this straight he wanted to stun him and then kill him by arrows when he can achieve the killing with the same piercing technique



What if he took into account Naruto's speed + RSM sensing and concluded that he might not have scored a fatal hit with that so he decided that stunning would make things easier? Even IF he could pierce Naruto all he would have achieved would be to damage or sever Naruto's arm -like Kakashi did with Kaguya-.


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## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Right, but it didn't seem as if Madara was actually pierced but just electrocuted.
> Is Black Chidori weaker than Chidori sword?
> Should we assume that Sasuke couldn't pierce Madara and the latter tanked the jutsu? That would make Madara's "tanking" feat similar if not better than Naruto's chidori "tanking" feat.
> Though as you mentioned before if Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto with chidori then why did he not used the Black variant of the jutsu which by all means should be more powerful?



it was Madara's Limbo clone though.Sasuke's powers don't work on the Limbo clone.

who knows why he used normal Chidori and not black Chidori.he probably thought he would be able to pierce Naruto with it.didn't he cut Madara with normal chidori sword?

electrifying Naruto wouldn't knock him out,and Sasuke never used Chidori like that either.it just dosen't make any sense.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 25, 2015)

Scenario 1: Madara has 1 Rinnegan

Naruto agreed that he wouldn't beat this Madara. If this is pre-Shinju Madara, then Naruto wins. Otherwise Madara wins.

Scenario 2: Madara has 1 Rinnegan and Kakashi's MS Eye

Don't see the big difference, same as above.

Scenario 2: Madara has 2 Rinnegan and the Rinne-sharingan. Naruto has no restrictions in this fight.

Madara is even stronger here than he is in the other scenarios. He wins with more ease.

I doubt he'd need Mugen Tsukuyomi.


FYI if Madara is not in stupid mode, he'll fodderise Naruto. Preta Path to nullify every chakra attack Naruto can use. He'll use Limbo to block attacks, and to attack; saving Shinra Tensei for opportune times. He'd use Demon Realm to overwhelm Naruto in CQC in conjunction with other jutsu such as Susanoo.

Madara should have jutsu like Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu, but we know they're useless against Naruto; with anyone who has Juubi power, really.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> it was Madara's Limbo clone though.Sasuke's powers don't work on the Limbo clone.
> 
> who knows why he used normal Chidori and not black Chidori.he probably thought he would be able to pierce Naruto with it.didn't he cut Madara with normal chidori sword?



Wasn't Madara actually pierced but changed places after a while?

They could see him being pierced and slowly sealed until he suddenly disappeared(which is when he changed places with Limbo). We can see Madara "jumping" above when Naruto and Sasuke go "!!" and "!?".
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Chidori piercing effect is immediate though. If it could pierce him it would have pierced him as fast as the chidori sword did. Even faster since it was the black version after all. We saw no signs of damage though.

It would be weird if Sasuke believed that he can pierce Naruto with the weakest version of his chidori when he saw Naruto show some resistance feats in their previous battles and expressed no surprise when Naruto was no damaged with his chidori.


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## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Wasn't Madara actually pierced but changed places after a while?
> They could see him being pierced and slowly sealed until he suddenly disappeared(which is when he changed places with Limbo). We can see Madara "jumping" above when Naruto and Sasuke go "!!" and "!?".
> Link removed
> Chidori piercing effect is immediate though. If it could pierce him it would have pierced him as fast as the chidori sword did. Even faster since it was the black version after all. We saw no signs of damage though.
> It would be weird if Sasuke believed that he can pierce Naruto with the weakest version of his chidori when he saw Naruto show some resistance feats in their previous battles and expressed no surprise when Naruto was no damaged with his chidori.



yeah,you're right,Madara did change places.though still Naruto already used a sealing Jutsu.and because it was the clone that was taking the damage probably is the reason that he wasn't pierced.
it's weird anyway that Sasuke used normal chidori when he could have used a stronger version,even if he didn't try to pierce.
still the point is chidori has always been a piercing or cutting attack.so we have to believe that Sasuke was trying to pierce.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

tkpirate said:


> yeah,you're right,Madara did change places.though still Naruto already used a sealing Jutsu.and because it was the clone that was taking the damage probably is the reason that he wasn't pierced.
> it's weird anyway that Sasuke used normal chidori when he could have used a stronger version,even if he didn't try to pierce.
> still the point is chidori has always been a piercing or cutting attack.so we have to believe that Sasuke was trying to pierce.



So you believe Naruto's sealing jutsu canceled Sasuke's chidori? Why would Sasuke attack if it was meant to be ineffective?

Or you mean that Madara's wounds were transferred to the clone? I see no piercing damage on the clone though despite seeing the electric discharges actually running through the clone.
Link removed

Still, Madara was cut in half right away with the chidori sword while black chidori couldn't pierce him despite him being subject to it for at least like 3-4 seconds. 

Therefore I think chidori sword may be either superior or better suited against opponents with great durability.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 25, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Scenario 1: Madara has 1 Rinnegan
> 
> Naruto agreed that he wouldn't beat this Madara. If this is pre-Shinju Madara, then Naruto wins. Otherwise Madara wins.


Naruto was banking on the Six Path Chibaku Tensei against Madara since it also would unseal the Biju and have them free again. Hence why he wasn't going to fight him alone. Both Naruto and Sasuke also effortlessly overpowered him with the Shinju so they could have individually defeated him, but they wanted to _seal_ him, that was the difference.


> Scenario 2: Madara has 1 Rinnegan and Kakashi's MS Eye
> 
> Don't see the big difference, same as above.


Naruto should still be able to defeat him.


> Scenario 2: Madara has 2 Rinnegan and the Rinne-sharingan. Naruto has no restrictions in this fight.
> 
> Madara is even stronger here than he is in the other scenarios. He wins with more ease.
> 
> I doubt he'd need Mugen Tsukuyomi.


And what of Naruto's Asura Mode? Naruto didn't use _his_ full power against Madara, so why do you act like Madara would beat him with ease? Or the fact he faced someone _stronger_, blitzed them, ripped off their arm, turned them into a pinball and physically overpowered them? 



> FYI if Madara is not in stupid mode, he'll fodderise Naruto. Preta Path to nullify every chakra attack Naruto can use. He'll use Limbo to block attacks, and to attack; saving Shinra Tensei for opportune times. He'd use Demon Realm to overwhelm Naruto in CQC in conjunction with other jutsu such as Susanoo.


The lesser paths are completely useless against this version of Naruto. Preta Path doesn't have the feats to absorb one Bijudama Rasenshuriken, much less a Gudodama. Limbo...NARUTO COUNTERED IT and fought it! Shinra Tensei, I wouldn't be surprised if Naruto could avoid it. Asura Path...turned into nuts and bolts. And Susano'o...Naruto shattered a stronger Susano'o without trying to kill his opponent.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The lesser paths are completely useless against this version of Naruto. Preta Path doesn't have the feats to absorb one Bijudama Rasenshuriken, much less a Gudodama. Limbo...NARUTO COUNTERED IT and fought it! Shinra Tensei, I wouldn't be surprised if Naruto could avoid it. Asura Path...turned into nuts and bolts. And Susano'o...Naruto shattered a stronger Susano'o without trying to kill his opponent.



Preta Path may not be able to absorb gudoudamas due to their complexity(thought it absorbed Jinton with ease) but Bijuudama rasenshurikens are a possibility. Madara never alluded that Preta wouldn't be enough to absorb something not it was stated by anyone that preta got limits to what it can absorb like was the case with Samehada.

Limbo clones were still around when Naruto's RCM clones were no more after Madara returned with his 3rd eye. Shinra Tensei was impossible to avoid by SM Naruto who was a great sensor back then. Its an invisible and extremely fast chakra wave. Asura path...well it could handle someone as strong as Bee with ease and this is Asura powered by a Juubi Jin, not to mention a much stronger shinobi than Nagato even without Juubi. As for Susanoo, Naruto's Asura avatar was also destroyed when he and Sasuke clashed. And since Naruto was exhausted despite receiving an insane power boost it would be hardly surprising that he attacked with all he got and simply trusted that Sasuke would be strong enough to survive somehow. Madara's Juubi, 3 Rinnegan and Shinju powered PS may be even stronger than Sasuke's bijuu PS. He got more chakra too.

I do not see Madara in his strongest version as much stronger than Naruto but I see him winning 6/10 fights. Madara got way more stacked power ups than Sasuke got and he mastered them all unlike Sasuke who was still a noob with his rinnegan even by the end of his fight with Naruto.


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## Hachibi (Jan 25, 2015)

>Saying that Naruto destroyed Susano
>Ignore the fact that Naruto's own Avatar got destroyed as well


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 25, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Saying that Naruto destroyed Susano
> >Ignore the fact that Naruto's own Avatar got destroyed as well


...I didn't ignore that. It was a backlash of BOTH attacks. Does Madara have something as powerful as Indra's Arrow?


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## ueharakk (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Madara got Six Path chakra as a Juubi Jin. Sasuke's and Naruto's great feats stem from said chakra too which they got from RS while Madara got it from Juubi. Obito got no Six Path chakra from RS and yet he could transfer said chakra to Kakashi after stealing a bit from Madara.


madara and obito's six path chakra is rikudou senjutsu, not rikudou's yin and yang chakra which both naruto and sasuke got.  



Arles Celes said:


> Also Madara got Rinne Sharingan which should be at least equal to Sasuke's Sharinnegan.Its the same eye that Kaguya herself got. And Madara was stated by Hagoromo himself to be getting close to his level and trying to reach for Kaguya's power. That was before he got Shinju, his 2nd Rinnegan and Rinne Sharingan.


Okay?  This still doesn't mean anything since Naruto in base thrashed pre-shinjuu madara.  If your a>b>c powerup logic was correct, it would have been the exact opposite even if naruto powered up to his RSM form since Madara had far more bijuu chakra than naruto did on top of the rinnegan.  

Hagoromo didn't say Madara was getting close to his level, he said *"using the juubi's power to try and get close to me and my mother's power".*



Arles Celes said:


> Regarding Madara's skill with PS most people here will argue that EMS Madara's PS > EMS Sasuke's PS. I do not necessarily agree with that though Madara's is bigger...


Since when are we talking about EMS Sasuke?  Sasuke had his EMS for just a day, and yet he progressed so quickly with it that he's able to do what madara did with his PS at VoTe, and even pull off stunts like using chidori through his PS.



Arles Celes said:


> Do you believe that Madara with all those power ups did not get a great boost to his PS? Or you think he lost PS as a jin since he never actually used it?


Obviously his PS gets a great boost, but what you're arguing is that madara's PS gets boosted so much that it's now far stronger than sharinnegan Sasuke's.  Where's the argument for that?



Arles Celes said:


> Actually Naruto wasn't able to fight on par with Sasuke's bijuu PS as his BM clones were getting blitzed, his bijuudamas easily countered with mere senbon projectiles and his other attacks easily blocked. Him shouting to Kurama to do something in desperation(gather all that nature energy) hardly implied equality. They were only equal when Naruto combined those clones into Asura BM AND got all of the earth's nature energy. Even Asura BM without all that nature energy did not put Naruto's mecha on the same level as Sasuke's. As for how much it increased its power is anyone's guess.


Sasuke blitzed a single BM clone using his teleportation, after that, he didn't even land a single attack on any of the naruto's he fought.  

Do you even know what 'fighting on par' means?  If Sasuke DIDN'T block naruto's attacks or DIDN'T equal his bijuudamas, then Naruto wouldn't be just fighting on par with sasuke, he'd be BEATING sasuke.  Let me ask you, after Sasuke teleblitzed the naruto clone, did he even land a single hit on any of the narutos? Naruto needed to summon all the natural energy to form an ATTACK that equalled Sasuke's strongest attack, strongest attacks restricted, Naruto's asura avatar is equal to Sasuke's.



Arles Celes said:


> As for the Naruto/Kaguya chakra clash for how long it lasted? 2 seconds? 3? We saw them clashing with Naruto sweating and Kaguya grinning and then Naruto was overpowered in the next panel. Even Sasuke's PS was able to resist long enough after getting hit by all of her bijuu arms to deliver a sword swing before dissipating. But such short lived resistance was in BOTH cases just that: Short lived resistance. Neither really matched her. That is why I used the Obito Vs Ino comparison. Her attack was able to affect him for a few moments but it hardly implied that her mind control abilities were equal to Obito's mind control resistance.


How long are chakra clashes suppose to last?  If Naruto wasn't at kaguya's level, there wouldn't even BE a chakra clash, it would be one punch of kaguyas and a naruto getting sent flying away. 
Sasuke's PS was only capable of swinging its sword one time per 4 punches kaguya throws, I have no idea how that's suppose to be a positive case for your argument as naruto threw punches just as many punches as kaguya, and definitely equalled far more than four of them.  Not only that, but we see Naruto equallying Kaguya's punches for an unspecified amount of time.

I've already destroyed that ridiculous argument about obito and ino where you try to disingenuously parallel an attack vs person to attack vs attack.  

So basically you're last post is just disingenuous comparison after disingenuous comparison motivated by personal bias for your assertion.


----------



## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Do you even know what 'fighting on par' means?  If Sasuke DIDN'T block naruto's attacks or DIDN'T equal his bijuudamas, then Naruto wouldn't be just fighting on par with sasuke, he'd be BEATING sasuke.  Let me ask you, after Sasuke teleblitzed the naruto clone, did he even land a single hit on any of the narutos? Naruto needed to summon all the natural energy to form an ATTACK that equalled Sasuke's strongest attack, strongest attacks restricted, Naruto's asura avatar is equal to Sasuke's.
> 
> 
> How long are chakra clashes suppose to last?  If Naruto wasn't at kaguya's level, there wouldn't even BE a chakra clash, it would be one punch of kaguyas and a naruto getting sent flying away.
> ...



Actually after the clash between Naruto's bijuudamas and Sasuke's senbon it was Naruto's BM clones that lost most of their tails and looked messed up while Sasuke's Bijuu PS not.
*"using the juubi's power to try and get close to me and my mother's power".*

And how do you know Sasuke teleported then and not used just PS shunshin? If Sasuke can blitz Naruto without bijuus with just s/t then I guess he can even blitz Kaguya...and everyone. Which he didn't do before. 

As for your belief that Naruto's Asura BM is equal to Sasuke's bijuu PS if we restrict Indra's Arrow then we might as well make assume that Madara's PS is equal to BSM Naruto if we restrict bijuudamas or at least super bijuudamas but wouldn't that basically deprive said BSM of its strongest weapon and make such comparison pointless? Kinda like how Sasuke's regular PS might be equal or above Kaguya if the latter is restricted from doing anything but taijutsu.

If Naruto was overpowered right away by just a single punch from Kaguya and killed, there would be no point in him being there would be? Its not like Juubito could kill BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke once they mastered their power ups with a casual attack could he?

And if you insist on how one can only compare similar attacks to each other then I guess Sasuke's bad performance against Kaguya does not count since he did not used any similar attacks to her own in  a clash so it doesn't count LOL. Nor does Madara's initial bad performance against Naruto count since he did not use his own chakra attack/s to clash with Naruto's Lava FRS and so it does not count. 

Ok bro, Naruto wasn't killed by Sasuke's God PS during the 2 pages clash and just got his tails messed up. Indra's arrow does not count as its cheating so Naruto's avatar is his equal or better then even though it did not accomplish anything till it got all that nature energy. And against Kaguya he was overpowered right away but he is her equal. And Sasuke isn't as fast as Kaguya who was blitzed by Naruto who in turn was blitzed by Sasuke. 

If Naruto is not holding back he stomps both Madara and Sasuke with bijuus. 

....All clear.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 25, 2015)

Kai said:


> How does he get mid diffed by RSM Naruto?* What of Naruto did Madara not handle?* OP already restricted Naruto's "mechs."


Naruto doesnt need his avatar to use most of his moves such as BDRS, YRS, or BRS, 
the fact that naruto didnt even use any of his main arsenal against madara doesnt mean that madara handled everything in his arsenal 



> Naruto told Madara he's not fighting him alone and called him stupid for it.


Its because he needed sasuke to seal him off, 
just because he coulddnt kill madara due to his immortality doesnt mean that hes weaker than him



> Madara was on a different level after he absorbed the Shinju, in contrast to Naruto knocking him down with a single Rasenshuriken before even entering RSM.


The only thing he really gained was immortality and immense regeneration, 
his abilities themselves were still not good enough to beat him 

 -- madara cant react to narutos top shunshhin

 -- limbo is not doing shit, not when naruto can seal them off, and outnumber/outclass them with his own KB

 -- madara gets wrecked by multiple BDRS and BIjuu RS, especially when Night Moth alone nearly killed him, 

 -- god tree is also non factor when YRS one shotted it in canon

 -- TBBs are not being fired when madara needs to summon the tree in-order to fire them off, and in that time, naruto gets  more than enough time to attack madara and disrupt the TBB formation


----------



## Trojan (Jan 25, 2015)

Although madara sucks and he is absolute terrible, but honestly he suffered from the plot in that form
and was not able to show much. :rofl


Not as if I care about him though.


----------



## tkpirate (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> So you believe Naruto's sealing jutsu canceled Sasuke's chidori? Why would Sasuke attack if it was meant to be ineffective?
> 
> Or you mean that Madara's wounds were transferred to the clone? I see no piercing damage on the clone though despite seeing the electric discharges actually running through the clone.
> *"using the juubi's power to try and get close to me and my mother's power".*



yeah,the damage was transferred to the clone.and there wouldn't be any piercing damage on the clone because Sasuke's powers don't work on the clone.



> Still, Madara was cut in half right away with the chidori sword while black chidori couldn't pierce him despite him being subject to it for at least like 3-4 seconds.
> Therefore I think chidori sword may be either superior or better suited against opponents with great durability.



nah,Kakashi pierced Kaguya easily.in case of Madara,i think he moved just too fast and the clone just couldn't be damaged by Sasuke.


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## ueharakk (Jan 25, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Actually after the clash between Naruto's bijuudamas and Sasuke's senbon it was Naruto's BM clones that lost most of their tails and looked messed up while Sasuke's Bijuu PS not.
> *"using the juubi's power to try and get close to me and my mother's power".*


sure



Arles Celes said:


> And how do you know Sasuke teleported then and not used just PS shunshin? If Sasuke can blitz Naruto without bijuus with just s/t then I guess he can even blitz Kaguya...and everyone. Which he didn't do before.


...because no one has ever used shunshin in the air, we know sasuke can use techniques through his PS, and if his PS was actually that fast, he would have continued to blitz Naruto's clones across the map instead of only being able to clash with them.

Now what's your evidence that it was sasuke's PS shunshin that did that?



Arles Celes said:


> As for your belief that Naruto's Asura BM is equal to Sasuke's bijuu PS if we restrict Indra's Arrow then we might as well make assume that Madara's PS is equal to BSM Naruto if we restrict bijuudamas or at least super bijuudamas but wouldn't that basically deprive said BSM of its strongest weapon and make such comparison pointless? Kinda like how Sasuke's regular PS might be equal or above Kaguya if the latter is restricted from doing anything but taijutsu.


Er, madara's PS is > BSM Naruto's if we restrict bijuudamas, and the comparison would be Asura's BM w/o ability to gather natural energy is = Sasuke's bijuu PS w/o Indra's arrow.  So you take away both of their strongest attacks and they are equal.



Arles Celes said:


> If Naruto was overpowered right away by just a single punch from Kaguya and killed, there would be no point in him being there would be? Its not like Juubito could kill BSM Naruto or EMS Sasuke once they mastered their power ups with a casual attack could he?


That has literally nothing to do with your argument.  Who said kaguya's punch had to kill him in order to show that her's are far stronger?   Sure there's no point in naruto being there if he gets killed by a punch so what?  That just means that kishi made him close enough to kaguya's power that he could clash with her.

Juubito could kill BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke with a casual attack, it's called barrier + shinjuu.  Plus, again it's a completely disingenuous comparison, if you want to make a genuine comparison, it would be you putting juubito's chakra arms against BSM Naruto's chakra arms, or having a bijuudama clash between the two.



Arles Celes said:


> And if you insist on how one can only compare similar attacks to each other then I guess Sasuke's bad performance against Kaguya does not count since he did not used any similar attacks to her own in  a clash so it doesn't count LOL. Nor does Madara's initial bad performance against Naruto count since he did not use his own chakra attack/s to clash with Naruto's Lava FRS and so it does not count.


Wow, just wow.  Since when did I say that the ONLY way comparisons between two characters can be made is if they clash with similar attacks?  I never did, i'm implicitly asserting that ONE of the ways comparisons between attributes of two characters can be made is by comparing them clashing two similar attacks against each other.  Get the hell out of here kid, stop wasting my time.  



Arles Celes said:


> Ok bro, Naruto wasn't killed by Sasuke's God PS during the 2 pages clash and just got his tails messed up. Indra's arrow does not count as its cheating so Naruto's avatar is his equal or better then even though it did not accomplish anything till it got all that nature energy. And against Kaguya he was overpowered right away but he is her equal. And Sasuke isn't as fast as Kaguya who was blitzed by Naruto who in turn was blitzed by Sasuke.
> 
> If Naruto is not holding back he stomps both Madara and Sasuke with bijuus.
> 
> ....All clear.


yep so this is you pretty much going off the deep end.  You're arguments have turned into silly little strawmen that have nothing to do with what i'm claiming.  When you decide to take the diapers off and piss standing up, let me know.


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## Trojan (Jan 25, 2015)

No offence, but this debate is hilarious. :rofl 

The Kid solos Sasuke though. 
*Spoiler*: __ 













This Sasuke had the same amount of the Bijuu's chakra that Madara had. In addition to the sage's chakra, and obviously a superior Rinnegan than madara's regular Rinnegan. Yet, the kid was toying with him.


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## SSMG (Jan 25, 2015)

Naruto could beat the juubidara that was shown in the manga more times than not. 

Juubidara who would use mokuton,PS, rinnegan to its fullest capabilities(basically if madara wasn't hit with the I do it stick) in addition to his juubi host powers would win for sure.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> This Sasuke had the same amount of the Bijuu's chakra that Madara had. In addition to the sage's chakra, and obviously a superior Rinnegan than madara's regular Rinnegan. Yet, the kid was toying with him.



This Sasuke wasn't a Juubi Jinchuriki, however. How was his Rinnegan superior? The only difference is he had Amenojikara... one jutsu. 
Madara mastered his Rinnegan, unlike Sasuke. Moreover that was the reason Sasuke lost, his noob level mastery didn't let him absorb jutsu while attacking*. Kurama confirmed this.

*Nagato used Human Path while absorbing chakra; Madara had Susanoo active while he absorbed Jinton. 





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto was banking on the Six Path Chibaku Tensei against Madara since it also would unseal the Biju and have them free again. Hence why he wasn't going to fight him alone. Both Naruto and Sasuke also effortlessly overpowered him with the Shinju so they could have individually defeated him, but they wanted to _seal_ him, that was the difference.



He was banking on it because he knew he could not defeat Madara any other way. Madara still said Naruto couldn't defeat him and Naruto agreed. You're only saying that the only way Naruto could win, with help, was to seal Madara away. 

With Limbo, Madara showed that's a thing he can counter.



> Naruto should still be able to defeat him.



Only if he gains more power than he had... along with the power to fight Limbo AND Madara together; Sasuke isn't backing him up with Amenojikara.



> And what of Naruto's Asura Mode? Naruto didn't use _his_ full power against Madara, so why do you act like Madara would beat him with ease? Or the fact he faced someone _stronger_, blitzed them, ripped off their arm, turned them into a pinball and physically overpowered them?



Nothing Naruto had could take Madara at his peak. 

Naruto's Asura Mode would just be countered by Madara's perfect Susanoo which would be Rinnegan and Juubi enhanced... in fact it'd even be Rinne Sharingan enhanced. 
Madara also has access to the Bijuu forms of the Juubi, including the Shinju. Let's not forget he can casually make Juubi Damas, probably stronger ones than Obito. Especially combining it with Mokuton.

Seeing as Madara has two Rinnegan, he'd be far more capable than he was in the previous scenarios; more capable than a form which was beyond Naruto's scope to handle. 

On top of that he's got ALL of Hashirama's powers, which means Juubi-Rinnegan-Rinne Sharingan enhanced Buddha statues and Mokujins. 

Madara was even able to use a jutsu style we didn't know too much about, God style jutsu. 

With all this power, Madara would rape Naruto. 

Also Kayuga was fighting Naruto with back up, Kayuga would have raped Naruto hard without Kakashi, Obito, Sakura and Sasuke backing him up.



> The lesser paths are completely useless against this version of Naruto. Preta Path doesn't have the feats to absorb one Bijudama Rasenshuriken, much less a Gudodama. Limbo...NARUTO COUNTERED IT and fought it! Shinra Tensei, I wouldn't be surprised if Naruto could avoid it. Asura Path...turned into nuts and bolts. And Susano'o...Naruto shattered a stronger Susano'o without trying to kill his opponent.



The lesser paths are more than useful against Naruto, it was how Nagato raped Naruto and Bee together. Luckily Kabuto's lack of knowledge on the Rinnegan's true powers, confirmed by Itachi, stopped Naruto from dying to the lesser paths there. 
That wasn't even an authentic Rinnegan with its true user; Madara is using an authentic Rinnegan while being the true user. Obito confirmed that is a very big deal.

Preta Path has all the feats, statements and hype to absorb anything Naruto throws at it. If it is chakra, it is finished; it is really that simple. There is a reason why Preta Path has made every shinobi who knew about it deem Ninjutsu to be useless. 

Gudou Dama has a lot of natural energy, a Preta Path user like Nagato, possibly Sasuke, would be overwhelmed upon trying to absorb it. However, someone like Madara has no problems: the guy is pretty much natural energy with two Juubi within him.

Limbo, five of them, would destroy Naruto when he's fighting them and Madara together. By that I mean a Madara whose not held back by the plot; one whose willing to use all his powers. 

Show me evidence Naruto can avoid Shinra Tensei, a jutsu no ocular power or sensor has ever been able to anticipate or counter. A jutsu which the databook states can catch the victims off-guard very easily. Madara would always have this jutsu to put Naruto in a spot Madara wants, while damaging him in the process.

Asura Path with someone like Madara would cause insane amounts of damage, a lot of Naruto's resources would be forced to deal with that... which is bad when he's got to deal with that, plus Limbo, plus Shinra Tensei with Preta Path making all his Ninjutsu worthless.

In fact with Preta Path making Naruto's jutsu worthless, Madara can just overwhelm Naruto with Limbo, Demon Path, Shinra Tensei and even well timed Human and Hell Realms. Susanoo would provide amazing support, as well as Mokuton. 

Tell me how Naruto shattered a Susanoo stronger than what Madara is capable of creating. A Susanoo enhanced by the Juubi, two of them actually, the Rinnegan and Rinne Sharingan.

Madara has too much to beat Naruto. If you consider all of Madara's powers, I mean all of them, and how he could use them: he'll rape Naruto. Not even Naruto from "The Last" stands a chance.

Madara at his peak... only characters like Hagoromo and Kayuga can defeat him.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Arles Celes (Jan 26, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> ...because no one has ever used shunshin in the air, we know sasuke can use techniques through his PS, and if his PS was actually that fast, he would have continued to blitz Naruto's clones across the map instead of only being able to clash with them.
> 
> Now what's your evidence that it was sasuke's PS shunshin that did that?
> 
> ...



Not even Guy when he was blitzing Madara? Naruto's BSM was moving through the air quite fast too even before receiving Six Path chakra to fly. As was Sasuke's CS V3 Susanoo.

And Sasuke never used his s/t with PS before. If he could then why did he not do so against Kaguya and cut her in half if he can blitz RSM Naruto?  

As for why he did not keep blitzing Naruto since when a character does continuously blitz someone even if he had shown capable to do so? Did Naruto keep blitzin' Kaguya after doing it once?

Regarding PS it was portrayed as equal to a regular BM. With SM, BM is greatly enhanced so if those tails could only match the PS blades why would they not be able to overwhelm them with a great boost to the mecha itself?

As for your other points let us just agree to disagree man. Besides we are going off topic.


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## Trojan (Jan 26, 2015)

> This Sasuke wasn't a Juubi Jinchuriki, however.


It does not matter he still had the same amount of the Bijuus



> How was his Rinnegan superior? The only difference is he had Amenojikara... one jutsu.


Which made him able to cut through madara several times. 


> Madara mastered his Rinnegan, unlike Sasuke.


Nah. He did not show anything that Sasuke can't do. 


> Moreover that was the reason Sasuke lost, his noob level mastery didn't let him absorb jutsu while attacking*. Kurama confirmed this.



Not Naruto's problem. The Kid himself had MUCH more problems and drawbacks than Sasuke's silly drawback, if we can even call it like that. 



> *Nagato used Human Path while absorbing chakra; Madara had Susanoo active while he absorbed Jinton.



Madara got half of his body destroyed because he can't use them at the same time.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It does not matter he still had the same amount of the Bijuus



That matters a lot, he was controlling them via a conduit, Susanoo. Madara himself was the conduit. 



> Which made him able to cut through madara several times.



Without Naruto, Madara would've taken Sasuke easily.



> Nah. He did not show anything that Sasuke can't do.



He showed several things Sasuke wasn't capable of doing due to his rookie Rinnegan. Sasuke could barely use Preta Path efficiently. 



> Not Naruto's problem. The Kid himself had MUCH more problems and drawbacks than Sasuke's silly drawback, if we can even call it like that.



Not Naruto's problem, but Sasuke's. Pretty much with Rinnegan mastery, Sasuke would have won. He could have easily used Preta Path moments before the clash with Naruto.



> Madara got half of his body destroyed because he can't use them at the same time.



Jinton just caught Madara off guard. Dude wasn't even using Susanoo at the time.

Yet when he did have Susanoo, after taking Tsunada, he easily absorbed Jinton while Susanoo was active.


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## Hachibi (Jan 26, 2015)

>Preta Path
>Absorbing everything

That fall into NLF as far as I know. I mean otherwise he could absorb Indra's Arrow, BRS + COFRS boosted by the planet and Cho Odama Gudodama


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## sabre320 (Jan 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >Preta Path
> >Absorbing everything
> 
> That fall into NLF as far as I know. I mean otherwise he could absorb Indra's Arrow, BRS + COFRS boosted by the planet and Cho Odama Gudodama



madaras rinnegan feats are exaggerated to the heavens lol apparently sm madara can deflect juubis giant bijudama with shinra tensei and preta is omnipotent even though kaguya could not absorb narutos attacks


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## Trojan (Jan 26, 2015)

> [=Munboy Dracule O'Brian;52765821]That matters a lot, he was controlling them via a conduit, Susanoo. Madara himself was the conduit.


His Susanoo worked like the GM. It's the same thing. 



> Without Naruto, Madara would've taken Sasuke easily.



No. When Sasuke cut Madara in half when he was trying to take Kakashi's eye that had nothing to do with the Kid. When Sasuke teleported the sword into Madara's chest that had nothing to do with the kid either. 


> He showed several things Sasuke wasn't capable of doing due to his rookie Rinnegan. Sasuke could barely use Preta Path efficiently.


No, Sasuke used Preta path just fine, and he also said that he got used to it in the war or something like that. 



> Not Naruto's problem, but Sasuke's. Pretty much with Rinnegan mastery, Sasuke would have won. He could have easily used Preta Path moments before the clash with Naruto.


No he wouldn't have won. As Naruto already dealt with those jutsus before and defeated them. 



> Jinton just caught Madara off guard. Dude wasn't even using Susanoo at the time.
> 
> Yet when he did have Susanoo, after taking Tsunada, he easily absorbed Jinton while Susanoo was active.



Are sure? 
because that is not what I am reading.


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## Hachibi (Jan 26, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> madaras rinnegan feats are exaggerated to the heavens lol apparently sm madara can deflect juubis giant bijudama with shinra tensei and preta is omnipotent even though kaguya could not absorb narutos attacks



That isn't what omnipotent mean but whatever 

Also Hussain saying that because Naruto already dealt with the Path before must mean that he is immune to it.

Must be why Sasuke could still absorb the chakra Kyuubi gave him and that Nagato nearly killed him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> His Susanoo worked like the GM. It's the same thing.



Show me Sasuke sealing Susanoo within himself.



> No. When Sasuke cut Madara in half when he was trying to take Kakashi's eye that had nothing to do with the Kid. When Sasuke teleported the sword into Madara's chest that had nothing to do with the kid either.



You're right, Madara held back by the plot (not using EMS or Rinnegan, even lacking all Gedou Dama) was cut by Sasuke. It had a lot to do with Madara being held back.

Also Sasuke could only do a lot of what he did because of Naruto... well Madara being held back was a bigger factor.



> No, Sasuke used Preta path just fine, and he also said that he got used to it in the war or something like that.



Kurama disagrees with you.



> No he wouldn't have won. As Naruto already dealt with those jutsus before and defeated them.



Those jutsu raped Naruto when he fought them centralised into one user alone.



> Are sure?
> because that is not what I am reading.



I think you're reading but not seeing. 

scritchy mark Madara had Susanoo, right? 

scritchy mark Madara has Susanoo.

Link removed Used Preta Path with no issues.

Also you didn't address Nagato simultaneously using Human and Preta Paths.


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## ARGUS (Jan 26, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I think you're reading but not seeing.
> 
> Link removed Madara had Susanoo, right?
> 
> ...



Nope, when preta was used, it absorbed his own susanoo during the process, 
edo madara still has access to preta, but it will absorb the susnaoo before it begins  to absorb anything else
since susanoo completely covers the user 

hence why madaras statement of susanoo preventing him from absorbing jinton still holds,  

and using 2 rinnegan techniques at the same time, is different from using an EMS technique and a rinnegan technique at the same time 
well atleast in edo madaras case, since his rinnegan was fake


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## sabre320 (Jan 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> That isn't what omnipotent mean but whatever



having unlimited power; able to do anything. fits the intent of my post perfectly


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 27, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Nope, when preta was used, it absorbed his own susanoo during the process,
> edo madara still has access to preta, but it will absorb the susnaoo before it begins  to absorb anything else
> since susanoo completely covers the user



Yes, while he was taking chakra out of his body, he was easily able to reverse the process with no problems. Susanoo did not interfere with him using Preta. 
As you said, Preta absorbed Susanoo first, but we saw it also absorbed Jinton, no problems. Once Preta activates, the user is immune to Ninjutsu.



> hence why madaras statement of susanoo preventing him from absorbing jinton still holds,



I already proved Madara did not have Susanoo when Onoki used the second Jinton. How can a jutsu (Susanoo) that wasn't even used have interfered with Preta?



> and using 2 rinnegan techniques at the same time, is different from using an EMS technique and a rinnegan technique at the same time
> well atleast in edo madaras case, since his rinnegan was fake



Using two Rinnegan jutsu or not: it showed you can use jutsu and absorb it at the same time. A jutsu which shrouds the user obviously doesn't have this luxury.
However Madara could use things like Mokuton, Shinra Tensei, Limbo or Demon Realm while absorbing chakra.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> madaras rinnegan feats are exaggerated to the heavens lol apparently sm madara can deflect juubis giant bijudama with shinra tensei and preta is omnipotent even though kaguya could not absorb narutos attacks



Obviously Pain or Nagato isn't deflecting shit like that with ST.

Juubi Jin Madara a far stronger shinobi than Nagato while also having the Juubi as a power source actually might deflect such a bijuudama.

The power of a jutsu increases with the strength of its user. Sasuke's chidori in the Last for example can accomplish a feat that even VotE Rinnegan Sasuke couldn't without PS.

As for Preta, it never failed in the manga nor any character said that it got some limitations like Samehada for example(which could only absorb a specific maximum of chakra in one *munch*). Kaguya couldn't absorb chidori or raikiri either. Nor PS. Which means that either she was hit by PIS or for some weird reason lacked Preta.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Hachibi (Jan 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> As for Preta, it never failed in the manga nor any character said that it got some limitations like Samehada for example(which could only absorb a specific maximum of chakra in one *munch*). Kaguya couldn't absorb chidori or raikiri either. Nor PS. Which means that either she was hit by PIS or for some weird reason lacked Preta.



Preta failed in the manga. Twice. The first time was when Preta tried to absorb Naruto's Sage Chakra. The second was when the Gokage attacked Madara while the latter had Susano activated.

Also, just because it isn't say that it got a limitation that it mean it doesn't have any. That's like saying
Taitsuga can pierce everything.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> The second was when the Gokage attacked Madara while the latter had Susano activated.



Sorry, he didn't.

Do you see Madara with Susanoo? The guy is just there without Susanoo. 



> Also, just because it isn't say that it got a limitation that it mean it doesn't have any. That's like saying
> Taitsuga can pierce everything.



Except Preta actually has no limit. Read how the jutsu actually works. There is a reason every shinobi says Ninjutsu is no longer an option when they learn of its power.

That is the reason Hashirama had to create a jutsu which works exactly the same way to counter Preta Path.


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## Hachibi (Jan 27, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sorry, he didn't.
> 
> Do you see Madara with Susanoo? The guy is just there without Susanoo.



I mean the scan Hussain posted, obviously.



> Except Preta actually has no limit.Read how the jutsu actually works.



I know how the jutsu actually works: it absorb everyone jutsu that come in contact with it. But, that doesn't mean that it has no limit. See Kaguya or Preta Path.



> There is a reason every shinobi says Ninjutsu is no longer an option when they learn of its power.



Because they doesn't have something that will overpower/give the user negative effect (like Naruto did. Twice)



> That is the reason Hashirama had to create a jutsu which works exactly the same way to counter Preta Path.



Bullshit since no one in Hashi's era had the Rinnegan (bar Madara, who Hashi didn't know he survived their fight).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Arles Celes (Jan 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Preta failed in the manga. Twice. The first time was when Preta tried to absorb Naruto's Sage Chakra. The second was when the Gokage attacked Madara while the latter had Susano activated.
> 
> Also, just because it isn't say that it got a limitation that it mean it doesn't have any. That's like saying
> Taitsuga can pierce everything.



Well, Preta didn't fail to absorb Sage chakra. It was just the user being unable to handle too much nature energy without being a Sage. If Preta failed then it simply wouldn't absorb. A guy like Madara who was able to handle Hashi's SM and later Six Path Senjutsu and Sasuke who was stated to be compatible with Senjutsu and capable to sense nature energy would both succeed where Nagato's puppet failed.

And even if we count Madara being actually unable to absorb Jinton while having Susanoo activated(despite him performing such a feat before) it still does not establish an actual limit for the absorbing limits of the jutsu itself as Madara even then did not state that he can't handle so much Jinton and it is just because Susanoo is in the way. But again he accomplished that feat before and Kurama stated that a Rinnegan user with perfect mastery can absorb and use offensive ninjutsu at once. Two instances of Preta being capable of absorbing while using another justu Vs one instance when it is contradicted.



Hachibi said:


> Preta failed in the manga. Twice. The first time was when Preta tried to absorb Naruto's Sage Chakra. The second was when the Gokage attacked Madara while the latter had Susano activated.
> 
> Also, just because it isn't say that it got a limitation that it mean it doesn't have any. That's like saying
> Taitsuga can pierce everything.



Taitsuga MIGHT be able to pierce everything if used by Kaguya. But did Taitsuga easily overcome most of the strongest defenses in the manga and praised in the DB as capable of it? In the manga it only dented one of the Rashomon Gates created by not-so-powerful Sakon. If it busted at least V4 Susanoo or pierced a V2 Jin with ease and never failed in general then why not?


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## sabre320 (Jan 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Obviously Pain or Nagato isn't deflecting shit like that with ST.
> 
> Juubi Jin Madara a far stronger shinobi than Nagato while also having the Juubi as a power source actually might deflect such a bijuudama.
> 
> ...



whats shinra tenseis greatest feats? 6tailed naruto deflected a point blank shinra tensei from deva someone on the same level i dont see it deflecting  possibly the most destructive attack in the manga...he couldnt even absorb yoton rasenshuriken...

preta has a limit its absorption prowess was matched by hashiramas wood dragons if preta has no limit on it then do you believe nagato can instantly absorb madaras ps?

kaguya absorbed chakra she has the sharinnegan she is the strongest character and she could not absorb the attacks powered by rikudo chakra why would madara...


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## Arles Celes (Jan 27, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> whats shinra tenseis greatest feats? 6tailed naruto deflected a point blank shinra tensei from deva someone on the same level i dont see it deflecting  possibly the most destructive attack in the manga...he couldnt even absorb yoton rasenshuriken...
> 
> preta has a limit its absorption prowess was matched by hashiramas wood dragons if preta has no limit on it then do you believe nagato can instantly absorb madaras ps?
> 
> kaguya absorbed chakra she has the sharinnegan she is the strongest character and she could not absorb the attacks powered by rikudo chakra why would madara...



Destroying entire Konoha? Which Deva didn't try against 6tailed Naruto.

Deva could easily handle something like FRS with just a small ST burst and not a fully powered one. With a bit more effort he could massively damage 3 boss toads without unleashing the full power of his jutsu. 

Shinra Tensei is best suited to deal with other jutsus than people though which is why it can overpower FRS but does not kill SM Naruto or Kakashi in one hit. And we are not testing it against Juubi's durability(and I already stated that Pain and Nagato are obviously way to weak to handle anything at those levels) but against an actual ninjutsu like bijuudama with the ST user being a Juubi Jin who is much stronger in "base" than Nagato.

Madara never stated that he plans to use Preta to absorb Lava FRS nor he said that Preta won't be able to handle it. Tbh he never even stated that Six Path chakra cannot be absorbed but IF that was the case then he can absorb everything not Six Path chakra powered.

As for the Wood Dragon instance it was weird but it implied that Hashi couldn't do anything to Madara despite his huge arsenal without first preventing him from using Preta. Seemingly having his own chakra being absorbed prevents him from using a ninjutsu like Preta which seemingly uses some chakra too even if only a little. Even then it does not establish a limit to what Preta can absorb.

Regarding Kaguya it was extremely weird. She absorbed Amaterasu which had to be Six Path powered as all of Sasuke's jutsus at that point should be. Black Zetsu stated that Kaguya can absorb ANY jutsu in the same chapter she absorbed Amaterasu. It was never stated to be Preta though. For some reason ,however, Kaguya later was afraid of a mere chidori from Sasuke nor could absorb Kakashi's raikiri. Nor PS from either of them. PIS or retcon but still as I mentioned before her absorbing ability was not confirmed to be Preta and she used none of other Nagato's abilities as far as we know which strengthens the point.


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## Hachibi (Jan 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Well, Preta didn't fail to absorb Sage chakra. It was just the user being unable to handle too much nature energy without being a Sage. If Preta failed then it simply wouldn't absorb. A guy like Madara who was able to handle Hashi's SM and later Six Path Senjutsu and Sasuke who was stated to be compatible with Senjutsu and capable to sense nature energy would both succeed where Nagato's puppet failed.



True Enough. Also, when did Sasuke absorbed Sage Energy?



> And even if we count Madara being actually unable to absorb Jinton while having Susanoo activated(despite him performing such a feat before) it still does not establish an actual limit for the absorbing limits of the jutsu itself as Madara even then did not state that he can't handle so much Jinton and it is just because Susanoo is in the way. But again he accomplished that feat before and Kurama stated that a Rinnegan user with perfect mastery can absorb and use offensive ninjutsu at once. Two instances of Preta being capable of absorbing while using another justu Vs one instance when it is contradicted.



Except that:
-Madara had fake Rinnegan
-As seen here, Madara didn't have Susano up after Jinton was used.



> Taitsuga MIGHT be able to pierce everything if used by Kaguya. But did Taitsuga easily overcome most of the strongest defenses in the manga and praised in the DB as capable of it? In the manga it only dented one of the Rashomon Gates created by not-so-powerful Sakon. If it busted at least V4 Susanoo or pierced a V2 Jin with ease and never failed in general then why not?



I can just change my example. Six Path Sage Mode was said to give the user "cosmic awareness" in the DB or the famous Haku being Lightspeed in the DB as well or even the more infamous Yata Mirror. Just because it is said in the DB doesn't make it a absolute truth (beside, which DB are you using for the claim?)

Also, now that I think about it, Madara couldn't absorb neither Mokuryu or Myojinmon.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> True Enough. Also, when did Sasuke absorbed Sage Energy?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke only "officially" got Preta when he absorbed Kurama's chakra from Naruto. Nevertheless it does not change the fact that Sasuke could sense nature energy something that only Sages can do and Oro said he is compatible with Senjutsu. His chances of turning to stone are FAR below Nagato's puppet.

Probably Jinton destroyed Susanoo but was stopped when touching the Preta Path absorption sphere. Or maybe Madara simply turned it off since it would be of no use against Jinton with Preta being all he needed then. And what do you mean by fake Rinnegan in this instance? You mean that fake Rinnegan somehow gave him an advantage that a genuine and more powerful one wouldn't?

As for "cosmic awareness" it could refer to how Naruto can use chakra on a whole different level than most humans. Like using gudoudamas or powerful nukes combined with the power of all 9 bijuus. It was never explained what it meant and the manga does not necessarily contradict it. Haku's jutsu was only hyped for a moment and was not used against kage or god level ninja so it was easy to see said hype as DB exaggeration. Heh, Haku himself was hardly jounin level even. Yata mirror was stated to reflect all elemental jutsus so who knows...maybe it can. Not all attacks are elemental though and Yata was not built as a long term plot element that would greatly affect future battles and its greatest feat was just protecting from some exploding kunai which a regular Susanoo could handle with ease.

Preta got great feats starting with Pain Vs Jiraiya and ending with Naruto's and Sasuke's final fight. There is no comparison.


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## Hachibi (Jan 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Sasuke only "officially" got Preta when he absorbed Kurama's chakra from Naruto. Nevertheless it does not change the fact *that Sasuke could sense nature energy something that only* Sages can do and Oro said he is compatible with Senjutsu. His chances of turning to stone are FAR below Nagato's puppet.



When did the bolded happen.



> Probably Jinton destroyed Susanoo but was stopped when touching the Preta Path absorption sphere. Or maybe Madara simply turned it off since it would be of no use against Jinton with Preta being all he needed then. And what do you mean by fake Rinnegan in this instance?



Because Madara was a Edo. That was said that his Edo Rinnegan was fake in his fight against the Bijuu (which thought he was still a Edo until he summoned the Gedo Mazo).



> As for "cosmic awareness" it could refer to how Naruto can use chakra on a whole different level than most humans. Like using gudoudamas or powerful nukes combined with the power of all 9 bijuus. It was never explained what it meant and the manga does not necessarily contradict it.



Considering the number of person that could use the Gudodama and/or nukes using one or multiple Bijuus (some even without Six Path Sage Mode like Toneri for the former and Sasuke for the latter), I would hardly say that he is on a different level. Plus, he didn't show added wisdom.



> Haku's jutsu was only hyped for a moment and was not used against kage or god level ninja so it was easy to see said hype as DB exaggeration. *Heh, Haku himself was hardly jounin level even.*



Bolded is false since Zabuza admitted Haku's superiority over him (the same Zabuza who stalemated Wave-Arc Kakashi alive and War-Arc Kakashi as a Edo (tho Kakashi never used MS)).


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## Arles Celes (Jan 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> When did the bolded happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In the VIZ translation when Kurama was gathering nature energy for Naruto. I think a few other translations also stated that.

And because Madara was an edo it affected his Preta path in some positive way? Otherwise his Preta should be at least as good if not better as a living being with real Rinnegan and his reason for not using it (nor PS) and mostly throwing gudoudamas was due to PIS.

Cosmic awareness does not necessarily mean that he is on a different level than any Juubi Jin or people who like him possess Six Path chakra. Nor it does specifically refer to his wisdom nor even intelligence. It does not state either that only he achieved such a state. It would be weird if other Juubi Jins including RS himself couldn't don't you think? As for Toneri we didn't get his DB profiles as far as I know and his Tenseigan Mode works differently than Naruto's RSM anyway.

As for Haku, Zabuza either stated that he was less talented(got less potential) or it was bullshit. K0 Naruto was smacking Haku and almost killed him. Could he do the same to Zabuza who was almost part 1 Kakashi's equal? Hell, Sasuke FORCED Haku to use his best move and was outmatching him in speed. Was Sasuke as fast as Zabuza or Kakashi back then? It doesn't make any sense....


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## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> And because Madara was an edo it affected his Preta path in some positive way? Otherwise his Preta should be at least as good if not better as a living being with real Rinnegan and his reason for not using it (nor PS) and mostly throwing gudoudamas was due to PIS.



This isn't what I mean. When I pointed that Madara's Rinnegan was fake, I mean to said that he had similar limit to Nagato (albeit, much stronger)



> Cosmic awareness does not necessarily mean that he is on a different level than any Juubi Jin or people who like him possess Six Path chakra. Nor it does specifically refer to his wisdom nor even intelligence. It does not state either that only he achieved such a state. It would be weird if other Juubi Jins including RS himself couldn't don't you think? As for Toneri we didn't get his DB profiles as far as I know and his Tenseigan Mode works differently than Naruto's RSM anyway.





> Power to be aware of anything that affects the user on a universal scale.



Considering Kaguya wasn't aware of everything (and she was pretty much the Juubi), I doubt that Naruto himself have it (tho he did show extremely impressive feats, don't get me wrong).

As for Toneri, that's because the IV DB only cover up to chapter 691.



> As for Haku, Zabuza either stated that he was less talented(got less potential) or it was bullshit. K0 Naruto was smacking Haku and almost killed him. Could he do the same to Zabuza who was almost part 1 Kakashi's equal? Hell, Sasuke FORCED Haku to use his best move and was outmatching him in speed. Was Sasuke as fast as Zabuza or Kakashi back then? It doesn't make any sense....



Here's the scan:


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## sabre320 (Jan 28, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Destroying entire Konoha? Which Deva didn't try against 6tailed Naruto.
> 
> Deva could easily handle something like FRS with just a small ST burst and not a fully powered one. With a bit more effort he could massively damage 3 boss toads without unleashing the full power of his jutsu.
> 
> ...



Actually the instance with hashis wood dragon pretty much showed the limits of the absorption prowess of preta it was matched and neautralized by the wood dragons....fact is madara had the rinnegan and would have absorbed the yrs if he could...whats pretty much implied by the later rinnegan wielders is that preta path is useless at the level of the god tiers sasuke juubidara and kaguya...

not all of the duos attacks use the special hermit chakra they have to actively use that chakra and utilize it in their attacks
[2]


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## Arles Celes (Jan 28, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Actually the instance with hashis wood dragon pretty much showed the limits of the absorption prowess of preta it was matched and neautralized by the wood dragons....fact is madara had the rinnegan and would have absorbed the yrs if he could...whats pretty much implied by the later rinnegan wielders is that preta path is useless at the level of the god tiers sasuke juubidara and kaguya...
> 
> not all of the duos attacks use the special hermit chakra they have to actively use that chakra and utilize it in their attacks
> [2]



The wood dragon is a physical object like gaaras sand and madara couldnt absorb things like sand. Even if the wood dragon prevents madara from using preta that does not mean that preta got an absorbtion limit. If obito or madara did put kurama under genjutsu(like obito did to kushina) then yhe bijuu wouldnt be able to wake up naruto from genjutsu. But it remains a fact that a bijuu can wake his user even from extremely powerful genjutsus. Said power like preta never failed unless was prevented from working by something else.

And sasuke did not use black chidori when he attacked kaguya yet she was still afraid of being hit by it. And most of all why would bz say that kaguya can absorb all ninjutsu while he knows that naruto and sasuke got special chakra that bypasses that? It makes no sense.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 28, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I mean the scan Hussain posted, obviously.



Again: Madara didn't have Susanoo activated, as I proved. So that comment is meaningless; it would be meaningful if Susanoo was actually there.



> I know how the jutsu actually works: it absorb everyone jutsu that come in contact with it. But, that doesn't mean that it has no limit. See Kaguya or Preta Path.



Actually it does mean it has no limit. The jutsu reverses the chakra flow of all Ninjutsu it touches. Unless you can prove certain Ninjutsu don't use chakra... then we're right to say that Preta Path has no limit in this regard.

Kayuga?



> Because they doesn't have something that will overpower/give the user negative effect (like Naruto did. Twice)



Show me. 

Naruto did it the first time WITH TAIJUTSU; even Naruto deemed Ninjutsu to be useless against Preta Path. 

The second time involved using Preta Path's function; Nagato wasn't a Senjutsu user thus he could handle the physical and mental energy that went into the chakra *and not* the natural energy.

Madara is a damn Sage... The second time Naruto countered it would do nothing to Madara. The first time, you proved Ninjutsu was deemed useless.



> Bullshit since no one in Hashi's era had the Rinnegan (bar Madara, who Hashi didn't know he survived their fight).



Hashirama's wood dragon was a counter, that's a fact. The only ways to counter Preta Path are not using Ninjutsu and Hashirama's wood dragon, the second variant. 

It doesn't matter what the era was, Hashirama had a jutsu which specifically countered Preta Path.


The fact shinobi resort to forgoing Ninjutsu or using particular jutsu to counter Preta Path suggests Preta Path has no limit like you suggest.


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## sabre320 (Jan 28, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Again: Madara didn't have Susanoo activated, as I proved. So that comment is meaningless; it would be meaningful if Susanoo was actually there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The fact that juubidara kaguya and sasuke resorted to forgo preta against god level opponents suggests preta does indeed have a limit and would not help against opponents of such a level


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## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Again: Madara didn't have Susanoo activated, as I proved. So that comment is meaningless; it would be meaningful if Susanoo was actually there.



His wood clones had it, which considering that clones can be considered the same.



> Actually it does mean it has no limit. The jutsu reverses the chakra flow of all Ninjutsu it touches. Unless you can prove certain Ninjutsu don't use chakra... then we're right to say that Preta Path has no limit in this regard.



Because it couldn't absorb Kamui?



> Kayuga?



Who?



> Show me.
> 
> Naruto did it the first time WITH TAIJUTSU; even Naruto deemed Ninjutsu to be useless against Preta Path.



Wasn't talking about Taijutsu anyways.



> The second time involved using Preta Path's function; Nagato wasn't a Senjutsu user thus he could handle the physical and mental energy that went into the chakra *and not* the natural energy.
> 
> Madara is a damn Sage... The second time Naruto countered it would do nothing to Madara. The first time, you proved Ninjutsu was deemed useless.



Madara wasn't a Sage User until he absorbed Hashi's Sage. Also, Nagato not being a Sage User is revelant since Sasuke isn't one after the Itachi fight and *could* use it.



> Hashirama's wood dragon was a counter, that's a fact. The only ways to counter Preta Path are not using Ninjutsu and Hashirama's wood dragon, the second variant.



Hashi's Wood Dragon can't absorb Ninjutsu, only chakra.



> It doesn't matter what the era was, Hashirama had a jutsu which specifically countered Preta Path.



That's like saying Senjutsu was specially created to counter Gudodama.



> The fact shinobi resort to forgoing Ninjutsu or using particular jutsu to counter Preta Path suggests Preta Path has no limit like you suggest.



The fact that Madara couldn't absorb Myojinmon, Kaguya Kamui and 9 FRS suggest otherwise, which is why I'm gonna ask you this: *which DB are you using for Preta?*


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 28, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> The fact that juubidara kaguya and sasuke resorted to forgo preta against god level opponents suggests preta does indeed have a limit and would not help against opponents of such a level



That's just to do with the fact that Kishi didn't use the Rinnegan at max capacity. Madara did and he stomped team 7 with 3 jutsu.

There's no limit suggested with your reasoning.



Hachibi said:


> His wood clones had it, which considering that clones can be considered the same.



Show me his wood clones having the Rinnegan. Via Ei we saw they only used the EMS.



> Because it couldn't absorb Kamui?



Kamui isn't like other jutsu, as shown by the fact that jutsu nullifying Gedou Dama couldn't nullify it. 



> Who?



You mentioned Kayuga, I'm wondering what the relevance is.



> Madara wasn't a Sage User until he absorbed Hashi's Sage. Also, Nagato not being a Sage User is revelant since Sasuke isn't one after the Itachi fight and *could* use it.



Madara could handle natural energy, nevertheless. Unlike Nagato. 

Nagato being not being a sage is relevant because it links to how Preta works and why it beat Nagato. The jutsu's mechanisms show that those users Sasuke/Madara wouldn't lose to Naruto using his Senjutsu chakra as they can handle it.

CS showed Sasuke can handle natural energy; your suggested method wouldn't work on Sasuke either.

Your method would not work on Madara ITT at all.



> Hashi's Wood Dragon can't absorb Ninjutsu, only chakra.



The second wood dragon apparently can nullify the barrier that Preta Path uses. That jutsu was written in to specifically counter Preta Path. That's why the dragon looks different to the previously used ones.



> That's like saying Senjutsu was specially created to counter Gudodama.



More like the Juubi was made of natural energy so Senjutsu users could fight it. Hence Naruto's explanation of natural energy countering natural energy.



> The fact that Madara couldn't absorb Myojinmon, Kaguya Kamui and 9 FRS suggest otherwise, which is why I'm gonna ask you this: *which DB are you using for Preta?*



Wtf is this Kayuga thing you mention?

Now I see you're referencing unique jutsu which don't seem to use chakra to say Preta Path cannot absorb chakra. 

Myojinmon is summoned, it isn't chakra. Kamui isn't like other jutsu, that's the reason it could warp part of the Gedou Dama which nullifies Ninjutsu. 
It can absorb 9 FRS; Kishi has been hindering the Rinnegan's full power for some time now. 

I'm using DB3. I'm going to ask you: do you understand how your examples are not relevant to the point here? Can you show me that Naruto's jutsu don't use chakra? Can you show me that those who can handle sage chakra will lose when using Preta Path when Naruto tries to pull what he did on Nagato?

The manga is clear: jutsu which are made of chakra are useless against Preta Path. That means, going all out with no CIS, Madara has crippled Naruto. Naruto cannot attack with Ninjutsu. He's forced into Taijutsu; God and Demon Paths, as well as Limbo rape Naruto there.
Overkill: Madara has Mokuton, Susanoo and even this new Ninjutsu style, God style, he used after using Mugen Tsukuyomi.

Naruto can't beat the Rinnegan's full power when it is being used by someone like Madara who has several other powers to support it.


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## Hachibi (Jan 28, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Show me his wood clones having the Rinnegan. Via Ei we saw they only used the EMS.



How's that revelant?



> Kamui isn't like other jutsu, as shown by the fact that jutsu nullifying Gedou Dama couldn't nullify it.



But yourself said that it had no limit.



> You mentioned Kayuga, I'm wondering what the relevance is.



Kaguya can absorb chakra and has the RinneSharingan.



> Madara could handle natural energy, nevertheless. Unlike Nagato.
> 
> Nagato being not being a sage is relevant because it links to how Preta works and why it beat Nagato. The jutsu's mechanisms show that those users Sasuke/Madara wouldn't lose to Naruto using his Senjutsu chakra as they can handle it.
> 
> ...



Even if you could handle Sage Energy, the risk is the balance. Just like how Jiraiya needed the Elder Toad 



> The second wood dragon apparently can nullify the barrier that Preta Path uses. That jutsu was written in to specifically counter Preta Path. That's why the dragon looks different to the previously used ones.



How it does look different? Like Madara implied, it's a jutsu to restraint Tailed Beast.



> More like the Juubi was made of natural energy so Senjutsu users could fight it. Hence Naruto's explanation of natural energy countering natural energy.



That doesn't counter my point.



> Wtf is this Kayuga thing you mention?



See above.



> Now I see you're referencing unique jutsu which don't seem to use chakra to say Preta Path cannot absorb chakra.



What? Myojinmon and Kamui use chakra, that is false.



> Myojinmon is summoned, it isn't chakra.



It kinda is.



> Kamui isn't like other jutsu, that's the reason it could warp part of the Gedou Dama which nullifies Ninjutsu.



Gudodama doesn't nullify Ninjutsu. Yin-Yang property do. Plus some of Sasuke's technique worked on Juudara.



> It can absorb 9 FRS; Kishi has been hindering the Rinnegan's full power for some time now.



It can't since 1) Not alot of people can handle all the nine bijuus at the same time 2)If you already have the chakra of the Nine Bijuu, it's going to make you unstable, as seen with Kaguya.



> I'm using DB3.



Which is where the problem lie. You're using a outdated ressource in DB3. That's like me using DB1 for saying Kimimaro's bones are invincible or using DB2 to prove Yata's Mirror's invincibility.



> I'm going to ask you: do you understand how your examples are not relevant to the point here?



They are if you think about it.



> Can you show me that Naruto's jutsu don't use chakra?



That isn't the problem here. The problem is that it *has a limit proportionnal to its user's strenght.* You're not seeing Nagato absorbing Indra's Arrow, do you?



> Can you show me that those who can handle sage chakra will lose when using Preta Path when Naruto tries to pull what he did on Nagato?



Senjutsu work on balance, right? Which mean that if the user get too much, he will become stone (like what happened to Preta).



> The manga is clear: jutsu which are made of chakra are useless against Preta Path. That means, going all out with no CIS, Madara has crippled Naruto. Naruto cannot attack with Ninjutsu. He's forced into Taijutsu; God and Demon Paths, as well as Limbo rape Naruto there.
> Overkill: Madara has Mokuton, Susanoo and even this new Ninjutsu style, God style, he used after using Mugen Tsukuyomi.



Where do I begin? Ah yes:
-Madara never crippled Naruto after Rikudo Power-Up
-Demon Realm is irrevelant
-Naruto's clones cloud go toe on toe with Limbo
-Mokuton get blow up
-Susanoo get blow up (Sasuke's BPS is far above him).



> Naruto can't beat the Rinnegan's full power when it is being used by someone like Madara who has several other powers to support it.



He can, just like how Nagato got defeated. Except that RSM Naruto is so far above both of the versions that fought Nagato (KCM and SM) that it isn't funny.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 28, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> How's that revelant?



Tell me how Mokubunshins with the EMS using Susanoo has any relevance to Madara, with the Rinnegan, not using susanoo.



> But yourself said that it had no limit.



As far as chakra based Ninjutsu goes as per the manga and databook. 



> Kaguya can absorb chakra and has the RinneSharingan.



Yes, and?



> Even if you could handle Sage Energy, the risk is the balance. Just like how Jiraiya needed the Elder Toad



Madara and Sasuke showed they can balance it just fine; Nagato couldn't. 
Your suggested method will do nothing to Madara ITT except give him more chakra.



> How it does look different? Like Madara implied, it's a jutsu to restraint Tailed Beast.



The wood dragon with the trunk-like nose, yes. Not the second one used to counter Preta Path.



> That doesn't counter my point.



Tell me why.



> What? Myojinmon and Kamui use chakra, that is false.



If they were *made of chakra* then Madara would have absorbed the former and Kamui would have been nullified by the Gedou Dama's Yin-Yang style.

The Myojinmon are summoned and Kamui doesn't appear to work like normal jutsu which is why it wasn't nullified like all Ninjutsu.



> It kinda is.



Show me it is chakra; that's like saying Jiraiya's toad insides jutsu is made entirely of chakra and not a living being.



> Gudodama doesn't nullify Ninjutsu. Yin-Yang property do. Plus some of Sasuke's technique worked on Juudara.



Gudou Dama with rational Juubi users *always* use the Yin-Yang property. Unless you're telling me Madara didn't use it, in which case: evidence, please. 

Sasuke HAS Senjutsu; hint: what allows Sasuke to use the black Chidori? Why could he sense natural energy?


> It can't since 1) Not alot of people can handle all the nine bijuus at the same time 2)If you already have the chakra of the Nine Bijuu, it's going to make you unstable, as seen with Kaguya.



I'll believe you when you show me that FRS isn't made of chakra.



> Which is where the problem lie. You're using a outdated ressource in DB3. That's like me using DB1 for saying Kimimaro's bones are invincible or using DB2 to prove Yata's Mirror's invincibility.



The info isn't outdated, you're just using bad examples which are drenched in PIS to assume Preta Path has a limit. I.E. your point contradicts the databook evidence which was supported by the manga time and time again. 

There's a difference between hype and difference between explaining a jutsu's function. You have obviously confused the explanation of Preta Path's power for the former. 

Your point would have meant something if every person who knew about Preta Path decided to use Ninjutsu and not forgo it or use specific counters.



> They are if you think about it.



Your premises are incredibly faulty; easy to see when you think about it.



> That isn't the problem here. The problem is that it *has a limit proportionnal to its user's strenght.* You're not seeing Nagato absorbing Indra's Arrow, do you?



Now you're confusing Preta Path for Samehada. Indra's Arrow has an incredible amount of natural energy, why would Nagato be able to successfully absorb it without being overcome by the amount of natural energy?

Tell me that you think Madara, or Hagromo, even Kayuga, can't absorb Indra's Arrow. 



> Senjutsu work on balance, right? Which mean that if the user get too much, he will become stone (like what happened to Preta).



Senjutsu's balance depends on the user's ability to balance it. Nagato has no talent with Senjutsu, he'd be fodderised. Madara and Sasuke have a talent with it. 
In Pain's situation, Madara and Sasuke would have simply entered into Sage Mode if Naruto tried his trick. They proved they can balance natural energy.



> Where do I begin? Ah yes:
> -Madara never crippled Naruto after Rikudo Power-Up
> -Demon Realm is irrevelant
> -Naruto's clones cloud go toe on toe with Limbo
> ...



What part of no CIS did you not understand?

- Madara also never used Rinnegan powers till he got his full Rinnegan; he quickly stomped Rikudou Naruto who had back up.
- Demon Realm is not irrelevant because you don't know how to argue against it.
- Naruto's clones can go toe-to-toe with Limbo when Madara aims to distract. Naruto's clones would be fodderised by Naruto's clones, while Madara dedicates his Limbo just to stomp Naruto. 
- Mokuton can keep coming back; Madara has more chakra than Naruto. Plus if you want to play it that way, Naruto's clones get blown up, easily.
- Please tell me you think Sasuke's Bijuu Perfect Susanoo is superior to a Susanoo enhanced by two Rinnegan, the Rinnesharingan and the Juubi's power. 



> He can, just like how Nagato got defeated. Except that RSM Naruto is so far above both of the versions that fought Nagato (KCM and SM) that it isn't funny.



Of course he can't. 
Nagato couldn't even use the Rinnegan's full power, even then Naruto got stomped every time he went against it alone. 

In this thread Naruto faces the strongest Rinnegan user, second only to Hagoromo, all alone. He will be stomped. To top it off, this Rinnegan user has several other powers. 

In fact Naruto agreed that he'd lose to this Madara who had one Rinnegan. A Madara who was crippled by PIS.


Face it, most of your arguments involve ignoring a lot of Madara's powers, superimposing limits on a limitless jutsu and not properly addressing the obstacles Naruto will face in this battle. 

Red flags like that indicate that the idea Naruto will win is a very faulty argument. 

This is one of those times where the main character did not end up being the strongest in the end.


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 29, 2015)

Naruto wins Scenario 1 and 2, Scenario 3 goes to Madara, regeneration is going to be a problem as well, Naruto has to avoid everything whereas Madara can tank most of Naruto's attack.


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## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Naruto wins Scenario 1 and 2, Scenario 3 goes to Madara, regeneration is going to be a problem as well, Naruto has to avoid everything whereas Madara can tank most of Naruto's attack.



What attacks does naruto need to avoid? madaras strongest attack is chibaku tensei which isnt remotely threatening to naruto....madara is not tanking bijudama rasenshuriken.....dude was cut in half by sasukes sword and nearly died to night gai


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 30, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> .madara is not tanking bijudama rasenshuriken.....dude was cut in half by sasukes sword and nearly died to night gai



Of course he can take Bijuu-Dama Rasenshuriken. The last Rasenshuriken he was hit by didn't even take him out; he can absorb or repel it if he wants.

Dude was cut in half by Sasuke's sword... he was still capable of fighting and regeneration.

He didn't nearly die to Night Dragon... Madara clearly was still alive.


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## Altair21 (Jan 30, 2015)

Naruto takes 1 and 2, but loses 3. It was clear as day that it was going to take both him and Sasuke to bring that version of Madara down. Hell, Naruto would've been screwed the minute Madara casted Infinite Tsukuyomi had Sasuke not been there.


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## Deer Lord (Jan 30, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> What attacks does naruto need to avoid? madaras strongest attack is chibaku tensei which isnt remotely threatening to naruto....madara is not tanking bijudama rasenshuriken.....dude was cut in half by sasukes sword and nearly died to night gai


1. Madara tanked sage-powered YRS no problem, and that was before shinju absorption and without gudodama barrier.

2. Sasuke used rikudo powered chidori katana to accomplishe that. Naruto would have been cut in half as well by the same attack. Except naruto can't regrow half his body 

3. Naruto used BDRS to take out one chibaku tensei, madara could spam like two dozen of those things at once, and quite casualy at that.


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## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> 1. Madara tanked sage-powered YRS no problem, and that was before shinju absorption and without gudodama barrier.
> 
> 2. Sasuke used rikudo powered chidori katana to accomplishe that. Naruto would have been cut in half as well by the same attack. Except naruto can't regrow half his body
> 
> 3. Naruto used BDRS to take out one chibaku tensei, madara could spam like two dozen of those things at once, and quite casualy at that.



And that was rikudo naruto in base ....yrs is in no way comparable to bijudama rasenshuriken

ahan and raiton channeled through his sword is superior to just his sword and even that is  inferior to chidori which naruto tanked

What are those chibaku tensei supposed to accomplish against him he can avoid them effortelesly...


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## Deer Lord (Jan 30, 2015)

^
Show me a scan of naruto tanking black chidori

and how is naruto supposed to out-run continent-wide meteors?


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 30, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> What attacks does naruto need to avoid? madaras strongest attack is chibaku tensei which isnt remotely threatening to naruto....madara is not tanking bijudama rasenshuriken.....dude was cut in half by sasukes sword and nearly died to night gai



Yeah but he regenerated far too quickly, I just think Naruto is going to have his hands full in the 3rd scenario a bit too much. Madara would have a larger stamina, regeneration and not to mention the juubi. He did get cut in half by Sasuke but he acted like nothing happened and sprouted new legs. The only thing is that he was almost killed by Gai, however after he absorbed the tree, he was pretty much on another tier. 

I think that was the idea behind sealing Madara as opposed to killing him, at that point there are only a handful of characters that could neutralize him, Sasuke/Naruto combo was one, Kakashi and Obito were potential others.


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## sabre320 (Jan 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but he regenerated far too quickly, I just think Naruto is going to have his hands full in the 3rd scenario a bit too much. Madara would have a larger stamina, regeneration and not to mention the juubi. He did get cut in half by Sasuke but he acted like nothing happened and sprouted new legs. The only thing is that he was almost killed by Gai, however after he absorbed the tree, he was pretty much on another tier.
> 
> I think that was the idea behind sealing Madara as opposed to killing him, at that point there are only a handful of characters that could neutralize him, Sasuke/Naruto combo was one, Kakashi and Obito were potential others.



Madara would have died if night gai hit his upper region!! bijudama rasenshuriken is an attack with the power of the rasenshuriken added with the bijudama with the properties of the guodama it isnt remotely close to yrs one of those blasted 2 continent level chibaku tensei how da heck is madara surviving that when he got cut in half by a simple sword strike with a little rikudo chakra pumped in it?? he died when he lost his upper body after bz naruto can make 1000 clones compared to madaras 5....


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 31, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Madara would have died if night gai hit his upper region!! bijudama rasenshuriken is an attack with the power of the rasenshuriken added with the bijudama with the properties of the guodama it isnt remotely close to yrs one of those blasted 2 continent level chibaku tensei how da heck is madara surviving that when he got cut in half by a simple sword strike with a little rikudo chakra pumped in it?? he died when he lost his upper body after bz naruto can make 1000 clones compared to madaras 5....


Yeah and no one is arguing that he wouldn't, but the thread says Juudara, I'm assuming when he has both Rin'negan after he absorbs the tree. Might Gai fought a 1-eye Juubidara with a 2-eye Juubidara that has absorbed the tree on top of the Juubi, it makes him far more powerful than the version that fought Gai.

You can't win against that, you have to seal it.


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## sabre320 (Jan 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah and no one is arguing that he wouldn't, but the thread says Juudara, I'm assuming when he has both Rin'negan after he absorbs the tree. Might Gai fought a 1-eye Juubidara with a 2-eye Juubidara that has absorbed the tree on top of the Juubi, it makes him far more powerful than the version that fought Gai.
> 
> You can't win against that, you have to seal it.



Im sorry but can i see feats of madara regenerating from nothing...not to mention naruto has sealing attacks once madaras down


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## sabre320 (Jan 31, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> Show me a scan of naruto tanking black chidori
> 
> and how is naruto supposed to out-run continent-wide meteors?



Im sorry you are not getting it sasuke used just his sword and basic chakra pumped into it to cut madara in half raiton pumped into his word is superior chidori is even superior and thats what naruto tanked not to mention naruto has a fkn ashura avatar to help.....

He is supposed to avoid them the same way sasukes sussano was blitzing across them.....
This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke

narutos full speed is much faster..


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## Deer Lord (Jan 31, 2015)

lol nope
Sasuke specifically told naruto to only use Rikudo powered moves against madz since only those could hurt him, prior to assaulting him.
So there really wasn't anything simple about sasuke's sword tech, and naruto would have been bisceted by it as well.

And no I'm not buying your second argument either. It took both sasuke and naruto's efforts to stalemate madara's combined CT+limbo assault. Naruto isn't doing it on his own.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 31, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> And no I'm not buying your second argument either. It took both sasuke and naruto's efforts to stalemate madara's combined CT+limbo assault. Naruto isn't doing it on his own.



So imagine a unrestricted Madara who'll use the full powers of his Rinne Sharingan, Rinnegan, EMS and Hashirama's powers.


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## sabre320 (Feb 1, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> lol nope
> Sasuke specifically told naruto to only use Rikudo powered moves against madz since only those could hurt him, prior to assaulting him.
> So there really wasn't anything simple about sasuke's sword tech, and naruto would have been bisceted by it as well.
> 
> And no I'm not buying your second argument either. It took both sasuke and naruto's efforts to stalemate madara's combined CT+limbo assault. Naruto isn't doing it on his own.



Thats nicemate a basic sword strike is stronger then chidori got it.....naruto also tanked kaguyas attack that destroyed sasukes ps and not to mention he has a freakin ashura avatar to protect him that you conveniently ignore 5 of narutos clones easily matched madaras limbos not to mention naruto can make a thousand clones sasukes was blitzing across the freakin meteor before it had even moved and cut it into peices naruto is faster he can avoid i no problem...you can ignore the arguments and feats if you like thats your choice


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 1, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> And no I'm not buying your second argument either. It took both sasuke and naruto's efforts to stalemate madara's combined CT+limbo assault. Naruto isn't doing it on his own.


Didn't Sasuke just cut two of the CT's while Naruto...demolished the entirety of it while fighting the Limbo's?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

I don't know about the 3rd scenario, but Naruto takes the first 2.

 His clones managed to fight against Juubidara's Limbo and without any clones, managed to create 6 Bijuudama Rasenshurikens that could obliterate Juubidara's CT easily and he's been shown to be able to use more clones as shown against Kaguya.

 MS doesn't make a difference for Juubidara. He still got phucked by Sasuke who he was able to detect, but showed that his Kamui is slower than Sasuke's striking speed.


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## sabre320 (Feb 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Didn't Sasuke just cut two of the CT's while Naruto...demolished the entirety of it while fighting the Limbo's?



Shhh...dont mention that nor that naruto held his own against someone on another level to madara even before ashura avatar


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Didn't Sasuke just cut two of the CT's while Naruto...demolished the entirety of it while fighting the Limbo's?



 Yes. That alone implies that Naruto should win.


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