# Itachi vs Nagato not impressive



## IchLiebe (Sep 26, 2011)

I see Itachi one shotted nagato, but how is that even a feat
wow he stabbed a man who couldnt walk with a huge sword 
Im sorry but his feats are not impressive at all


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## Reddan (Sep 26, 2011)

Itachi vs Nagato was much like Muu vs Naruto. Yes the victor had help, which enabled them to win the fight, quicker, but it is implied they could have won by themselves. 

Look at it this way. Itachi is moving on to possibly confront the sixth coffin; Kabuto's greatest Edo Tensei. If Itachi could not beat Nagato by himself then there is no tension of hope of him doing anything to the greatest summon.


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

Because Nagato didn't realize he'd been stabbed until after the fact. We see him realize it in the same panel we see him vibrate, indicating when he'd been run through.


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## Itαchi (Sep 26, 2011)

^ again agreed with the user above.


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## Subside (Sep 26, 2011)

Inu said:


> I disagree with the users above.


Why?

Itachi defeating Nagato was just hype for his next encounter, Kabuto and the 6th coffin. If he couldn't defeat Nagato then how would he be able to stand up to someone who "Madara" was shitting his keggs about?


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## ? (Sep 26, 2011)

No, it was hyping teamwork. Something Itachi was trying to explain was necessary for success with Naruto in the following chapter.


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## Mistshadow (Sep 26, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Because Nagato didn't realize he'd been stabbed until after the fact. We see him realize it in the same panel we see him vibrate, indicating when he'd been run through.



ummmmmmmmmmm, no your wrong.

he didnt get his CONSCIOUSNESS back until he was stabbed. of course you realize you got stabbed right when you get stabbed. he was a drone until he was getting resealed


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

Either way that fight would have had the same conclusion. Though I wouldn't outright say that Itachi > Nagato.

More like Itachi >=< Nagato. Close enough that betting a thousand bucks on either one is a safe/bad bet. I agree he'd have to be powerful enough to be able to beat Nagato if he's going to stand up to the next challenges and have the reader not lose faith in him.



Itαchi said:


> ^ Agree with users above.





Itαchi said:


> ^ again agreed with the user above.





Inu said:


> I disagree with the users above.



I agree with all these


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## Itαchi (Sep 26, 2011)

Shadowstring98 said:


> this



You should at least acknowledge this ana:



Jυstin said:


> Because Nagato didn't realize he'd been stabbed until after the fact. We see him realize it in the same panel we see him vibrate, indicating when he'd been run through.



This is true, though.



> More like Itachi >=< Nagato.



Hmm..

In a strict fight, I see Itachi winning.

In raw power, Nagato is stronger no doubt.

But I see Itachi as the superior ninja as we saw how he killed Rinnegan summons with Kunais.


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

Mistshadow said:


> ummmmmmmmmmm, no your wrong.
> 
> he didnt get his CONSCIOUSNESS back until he was stabbed. of course you realize you got stabbed right when you get stabbed. he was a drone until he was getting resealed



That's true too, but by no means does it make what *I* said false. I meant Nagato didn't see it coming till after it was too late. Indicated by the "!!". This was also used when Orochimaru was stabbed. It means **Surprise!**.


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## Ana (Sep 26, 2011)

Itαchi said:


> You should at least acknowledge this ana:
> This is true, though.
> Hmm..
> In a strict fight, I see Itachi winning.
> ...







Mistshadow said:


> ummmmmmmmmmm, no your wrong.
> 
> he didnt get his CONSCIOUSNESS back until he was stabbed. of course you realize you got stabbed right when you get stabbed. he was a drone until he was getting resealed







Jυstin said:


> That's true too, but by no means does it make what *I* said false. I meant Nagato didn't see it coming till after it was too late. Indicated by the "!!". This was also used when Orochimaru was stabbed. It means **Surprise!**.



but notice his eyes turn back to its normal color *after* it occured
that's when his consciousness returned


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## navy (Sep 26, 2011)

It was only impressive for Itachi fans.

For the rest of us, it was the same half-assed shit thats plagued all the edo fights.


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

Itαchi said:


> This is true, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. Itachi lacks raw power and stamina. In that, Nagato is haxed like no other. Itachi's strength lies in a different kind of hax, one more powerful than his MS Jutsu.

His intelligence and skill.

Those are what's haxed. Consider the short-term, and especially long-term plans he's made:



Jυstin said:


> Against Sasuke, he planned out the entire fight, to the last detail. He planned out his own moves, as well as Sasuke's, before the fight had started. He had planned the scenarios, and would have to have done so too, to control the actual flow of battle, right down to playing it stage by stage _exactly_ how he wanted it to go.
> 
> 
> 1. Informing Sasuke about Madara, using "perception" and "reality" to paint himself the bad guy.
> ...



I seriously wonder what this man's I.Q. is. His intelligence feats eclipse even Shikamara. Shikamaru has never done any highly intricate and specific long-term planning that went down _exactly_ as he planned (*insert "Just as planned" meme here, giggity*). And while his short-term assessments may be every bit as brilliant as Itachi's, Itachi comes to his conclusions almost immediately. Much faster than Shikamaru.

On top of that, Itachi possesses his own hax techniques for when his skill and intelligence isn't enough.

Stones vs kunai. Itachi might use low level Ninjutsu and basic shinobi arts like kunai and shuriken (Basically he still sticks to the Part 1 style), but he uses it with so much skill, he can combat those top tier opponents with them, despite their insane power, and still get devastating results.

It's that damn intelligence of his. Skill and intelligence are more crucial than raw power. And to overcome skill and intelligence with raw power alone, you need A LOT of it, akin to how the sun eclipses the earth. That's how deadly intelligence and skill is. Of course, it's useless without a degree of power.

Intelligence and skill are so much more valuable because they act like variables in the equation that power is multiplied by. If you have 10 Power, but only 2 in Skill and Intelligence, you end up with an overall 40. But if you have 5 in Power, 5 in Skill and 5 in Intelligence, you end up with 125 overall.


That's why I can see Itachi beating Nagato. I gotta give props where due and say Itachi isn't guaranteed to win... but so many think Itachi would get stomped. They still don't recognize him as top tier. He _could_ lose, but he also has every means to win. I don't see him getting stomped, and if he were to lose, it would be a damn hard-fought battle 

And vice versa. I'd be routing for Itachi, but I know it wouldn't be like Itachi vs Orochimaru. Still I'd have every bit of faith that Itachi could win.


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

Shadowstring98 said:


> but notice his eyes turn back to its normal color *after* it occured
> that's when his consciousness returned



Well yeah, but it was still definitely surprise. Just like Nagato was surprised by Amaterasu (the second one Itachi used directly on him). Kabuto was the one surprised by Totsuka. There was the speed of the stab, coupled by the distraction of the explosion and the cover of the smoke, though largely it was Susano'o's speed, since we've seen it slice off 7 of Yamata no Orochi's heads in the span of about 1 second and interrupt Orochimaru's speech with a surprise stab while he was looking at him.

I also don't give the dust as  much credit cause it was blocking LOS both ways >_>

I don't think Susano'o would be automatic GG in any case though


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 26, 2011)

I agree that it wasn't that immpresive.Nagato was controlled by Kabuto and Itachi took advantage of a dust cloud that Naruto and Bee helped create by destroying CT..


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## eyeknockout (Sep 26, 2011)

itachi is top tier with nagato, nagato cannot stomp itachi. itachi lacks massive raw power, but makes up for with illusions. imagine trying to fight someone who can change your entire perception while attacking you outside of the illusion...aizen


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 26, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Just like Nagato was surprised by Amaterasu (the second one Itachi used directly on him).



Nagato smiled and said "I see what you did" as Itachi looked at him with his bloodlusted eye.Nagato wasn't surprised by Amaterasu.There wasn't anyone going "!!" (like Nagato did when Itachi saved Naru and Bee or when he was struck down by Totsuka) no further comments, no anything.


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## Bringer (Sep 26, 2011)

how does sealing someone count as a win. It should be a fair fight not just sealing.


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## Itαchi (Sep 26, 2011)

^ Well sealing someone is like giving the enemy knockout. You dont need put blood on the ground to win a fight.


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 26, 2011)

It wasn't really "Itachi vs Nagato". 

It was 3 vs 1 (and the 1 was putting more focusing into 2 of the 3 while pretty much ignoring the other 1). 

I mean you can argue for the Totsuka strike, but given that Nagato was said to have mobility issues and that Itachi striked from the dust cloud, it wasn't that big of a deal (though it showed Itachi's intelligence and skill imo).

But it doesn't really prove how a 1 vs 1 fight between Nagato and Itachi would go. (I still say Pain is more effective and harder to deal with than Nagato though...)



BringerOfChaos said:


> how does sealing someone count as a win. It should be a fair fight not just sealing.



They are no longer able to fight (and there seems to be no chance of escape), so they lose.


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## Kyu (Sep 26, 2011)

^ Don't bring Aizen in this you know he shitstomps them both

Nagato & Itachi are around equals I guess... I'm still kinda iffy on how the whole fight went down.

Itachi is still the better character though


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

> It was 3 vs 1 (and the 1 was putting more focusing into 2 of the 3 while pretty much ignoring the other 1).
> 
> I mean you can argue for the Totsuka strike, but given that Nagato was said to have mobility issues and that Itachi striked from the dust cloud, it wasn't that big of a deal (though it showed Itachi's intelligence and skill imo).
> 
> But it doesn't really prove how a 1 vs 1 fight between Nagato and Itachi would go.



Well you see, the only assistance Naruto and Bee provided was in _possibly_ helping to destroy CT. We don't know for sure, as we don't know its durability or the power of Yasaka's Magatama.

Nagato wasn't distracted by Naruto and Bee for one bit. Then there would be no excuse for why Bee was caught by Nagato while Nagato was "distracted by Naruto". Nagato was focusing on Bee and Naruto, but Nagato's summons were keeping a watch out. That was their purpose. Itachi just found a way around them.

Nagato's mobility also isn't an issue. I mean it's not exactly a handicap. It's simply Nagato's skill level with mobility. If mobility were a stat, Nagato would have a 1/5 from disuse of his body. Itachi is simply better than Nagato in mobility because he trained for it. Nagato could/could have corrected this with regular use of his body and practice.

In one vs one, we _could_ substitute Karasu Bunshens or Kage Bunshens to accomplish the same roles Naruto and Bee did, in terms of "distraction". Hell, a Bunshen Daibakuha could also surprise Nagato if Nagato grabbed it and tried to rip its soul out, only to be getting a face-full of BOOM 

What I mean is, it wasn't that one-sided. Naruto and Bee were pretty inconsequential, unable to do a thing to Nagato. Itachi, while lacking raw power, was able to use his intelligence to do what Naruto and Bee could not. That Susano'o slash actually took off Nagato's left arm also, the one he used to form the other half of the seal needed for Chibaku Tensei.

It could still go either way, despite me making it sound like Itachi stomps >/_\>



BringerOfChaos said:


> how does sealing someone count as a win. It should be a fair fight not just sealing.



Because incapacitating / rendering the foe unable to fight back or defend is the essence of victory.

Not every loss ends in death.



> Nagato smiled and said "I see what you did" as Itachi looked at him with his bloodlusted eye.Nagato wasn't surprised by Amaterasu.There wasn't anyone going "!!" (like Nagato did when Itachi saved Naru and Bee or when he was struck down by Totsuka) no further comments, no anything.



He wasn't talking about Amaterasu. He said "I see what you DID", not "I see what you're doing/about to do". He was talking past tense, something Itachi had already done. This came right after Nagato asked, _"... that crow is yours, isn't it? *What did you do with it?!*"_

Basically, Nagato figured out what Itachi did with it.

Nagato sensed the first one coming, but he did not get hit by a delayed Amaterasu. His Cerberus summon did. Itachi fired a second one on Nagato that he didn't see coming, or couldn't react to it. Either way, it was established that if an Edo Tensei can react to an opponent's attack, they *have to* react.

*Trollkage:* "Anyway, we're can't control our own bodies. *We're on autopilot to react to enemy techniques.*"

*Raikage:* "*As soon as it [Edo Tensei] recognizes an enemy's Jutsu*, it's programed to respond on its own!!"


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## ? (Sep 26, 2011)

Itachi wasn't an enemy at the point he used Amaterasu; at least to Kabuto's knowledge. The "programmed" enemies were only Naruto and Bee, so the autopilot was for them only. Why would Nagato's autopilot defend an attack from Itachi, who wasn't a "programmed" enemy?


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## eyeknockout (Sep 26, 2011)

I would be more afraid to fight itachi then nagato if they were bloodlusted. just sayin


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## Naru-Ichi (Sep 26, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Well you see, the only assistance Naruto and Bee provided was in _possibly_ helping to destroy CT. We don't know for sure, as we don't know its durability or the power of Yasaka's Magatama.



This part really doesn't matter to me. I'm not one of those people who says that you need the strength of all 3 of those jutsus to destroy CT so...



> Nagato wasn't distracted by Naruto and Bee for one bit. Then there would be no excuse for why Bee was caught by Nagato while Nagato was "distracted by Naruto". Nagato was focusing on Bee and Naruto, but Nagato's summons were keeping a watch out. That was their purpose. Itachi just found a way around them.



But there's a problem with this. Let's assume that Nagato was able to see what Itachi was doing against his summons (though from the looks of it, Itachi wasn't really in their field of view). That still doesn't change the fact that he was dealing with Naruto and Bee at the time, allowing Itachi free rein...something he would NOT get in a 1 vs. 1 fight (which was my point).



> Nagato's mobility also isn't an issue. I mean it's not exactly a handicap. It's simply Nagato's skill level with mobility. If mobility were a stat, Nagato would have a 1/5 from disuse of his body. Itachi is simply better than Nagato in mobility because he trained for it. Nagato could/could have corrected this with regular use of his body and practice.



No, I agree with this. That was more of a shot to Nagato in that post anyway. Like I said, given that Nagato did have mobility issues (rather it be speed or otherwise) and that it was an attack from the dust cloud, I don't see it being such a big feat.



> In one vs one, we _could_ substitute Karasu Bunshens or Kage Bunshens to accomplish the same roles Naruto and Bee did, in terms of "distraction". Hell, a Bunshen Daibakuha could also surprise Nagato if Nagato grabbed it and tried to rip its soul out, only to be getting a face-full of BOOM



I can't tell if you're serious or not 

If so, Nagato doesn't have to "soul rip" the clones (given that they are clones, why would he even try to if there's a possibility that the real Itachi isn't there). He could just use Shinra Tensei (or any other strategy).

Anyway, it's not as simple as just placing those clones in Naruto and Bee's place.



> What I mean is, it wasn't that one-sided. Naruto and Bee were pretty inconsequential, unable to do a thing to Nagato. Itachi, while lacking raw power, was able to use his intelligence to do what Naruto and Bee could not. That Susano'o slash actually took off Nagato's left arm also, the one he used to form the other half of the seal needed for Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> It could still go either way, despite me making it sound like Itachi stomps >_>



Honestly, none of that has anything to really do with my point:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> But it doesn't really prove how a 1 vs 1 fight between Nagato and Itachi would go.



How it actually would go doesn't really matter to me since I don't think Nagato is as powerful as people make him out to be (or rather, I think he's less effective than Pain...). However, I don't agree with people using Naruto, Bee, and Itachi vs Nagato as proof of how a fight between Nagato and Itachi would go...


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## Turrin (Sep 26, 2011)

The Itachi, Naruto, B vs Nagato battle was impressive on a-lot of fronts.

Itachi was impressive in the 
1. His Kunai skills
2. His quick thinking 
3. His new long Range Technique

Nagato was impressive in
1. Getting the Drop on B, Naruto, and Itachi
2. Owning B and Naruto with little effort
3. Only being defeated by the combined efforts of B, Naruto, and Itachi

Basically Nagato was impressive in terms of strength while Itachi was impressive in terms of quick thinking and utilizing the advantages his allies granted him. So both were impressive in a way.

The idea of Itachi one shotting is a silly idea however created by the Itachi-fan base so to justify the belief that Itachi > or = to Nagato. In reality there is nothing in that battle which would suggest ether. We don't know if Itachi could have taken out the summons and duel vision had Nagato not been distracted and commanded to focus his attention on Naruto/B. We don't know if Itachi could have overcome CT w/o Naruto and B's great Raw power on his side.

On the other hand I'd say Nagato effortlessly owning B and Naruto w/o his best Jutsu has it's own implications about the strength of Nagato versus Itachi who would need his best Jutsu for any chance to defeat B or Naruto.


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## Frawstbite (Sep 26, 2011)

- Kabuto doesn't know how to make up for Nagato's lack of mobility better than Nagato. No one in all of the narutoverse could possibly know better. To say Nagato would have made the same movements, when he knows himself better than anyone is crazy.

- Itachi took advantage of a cloud of dust created by his teammates. Only after using the combined powers of the three's attacks to even give him that opportunity. 

- You can capitalize on any distraction, no matter how minimal. Itachi found a vantage point in the middle of a fight the blind the summons. If not for Naruto and Bee, he would not have had that window of opportunity. He was able to duck out of the battle because of that. Dispatching a few clones is much easier than overthrowing two jins.

Anyone who actually believes that it was a _one on one_ should read it again, and one more time. Without all of the above variables, anything could have happened. Not saying Nagato would have won, because it's hard to deal with the plotswor- I mean totsuka without knowledge. 

I agree with the OP it was underwhelming, but it's no big deal because it seems like Nagato wasn't the primary focus anyway.


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## eyeknockout (Sep 26, 2011)

couldn't itachi have just done the same thing he did here without naruto and bee.

just make a clone head into battle while he stays out of field of vision and kills the summon then surprise attacks again?

still haven't seen nagato's genjutsu defense that itachi specializes in. people keep saying that nagato is superior to all 3 individually, but I saw itachi countering all his attacks and not get scratched without using his specialty and forcing nagato to have to use edo regen to use chibaku tensei, people say itachi can't destroy chibaku tensei on his own, well nagato can't create chibaku tensei with 1 arm.

itachi = nagato


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

Inu said:


> Itachi wasn't an enemy at the point he used Amaterasu; at least to Kabuto's knowledge. The "programmed" enemies were only Naruto and Bee, so the autopilot was for them only. Why would Nagato's autopilot defend an attack from Itachi, who wasn't a "programmed" enemy?



This is a pretty bold claim to make, since we don't know how Edo Tensei discerns friend from foe.

Naturally, the way to do this is intent. Nagato had realized what Itachi did BEFORE Itachi used Amaterasu, so that would essentially "reprogram" Itachi as an enemy, if we're going with this theory.



Naru-Ichi said:


> This part really doesn't matter to me. I'm not one of the people who say that you need the strength of all 3 of those jutsus to destroy CT so...



Oh, ok. Fair enough 



> But there's a problem with this. Let's assume that Nagato was able to see what Itachi was doing against his summons (though from the looks of it, Itachi wasn't really in their field of view). That still doesn't change the fact that he was dealing with Naruto and Bee at the time, allowing Itachi free rein...something he would NOT get in a 1 vs. 1 fight (which was my point).



Itachi still might. He's been able to make clones and shuffle around with them while multiple pairs of eyes are watching him, and not see it. In the chaos of a battle, Bunshen feints are easy to pull of, especially for one with Itachi's Jutsu speed. He did the hand seals and executed his Jutsu while in mid dodge for an instant counter attack. Look at the distance distance traveled before and after casting the Jutsu. There almost is none.

Itachi's smart and he's fast, so I wouldn't put it past him to be able to find their blind spots shortly after Nagato has summoned them, especially with Bunshen feints, which would serve the double purpose of drawing Nagato's attention. What I mean is, this isn't impossible for a man like Itachi to pull off.



> No, I agree with this. That was more of a shot to Nagato in that post anyway. Like I said, given that Nagato did have mobility issues (rather it be speed or otherwise) and that it was an attack from the dust cloud, I don't see it being such a big feat.



Oh  Yeah certainly. Susano'o stabbing Orochimaru will always be the more impressive feat. And how it cleaved 7 of Yamata no Orochi's heads in about less than a second (the way they're drawn landing suggests they hit the ground roughly about the same time).

Itachi had those factors helping against Nagato. He had surprise via CT explosion and cover via dust, and took advantage of those instantly.



> I can't tell if you're serious or not
> 
> If so, Nagato doesn't have to "soul rip" the clones (given that they are clones, why would he even try to if there's a possibility that the real Itachi isn't there). He could just use Shinra Tensei (or any other strategy).
> 
> Anyway, it's not as simple as just placing those clones in Naruto and Bee's place.



I'm serious, but I'm not saying that that's exactly how it would go down. It was more hypothetical so say it's possible. Nagato could try using Human or Heal Realm on Itachi, but if it's a Bunshen Daibakuha, that could prove fatal. I'm not ignoring Nagato's other attacks, however. This is just an example of Bunshen Daibakuha's effectiveness, using what Nagato tried on Naruto as the example.

It wouldn't be wise to spam Shinra Tensei though. As effective as it might be the first time, that's about as effective as it can get. Even against less intelligent opponents, it's unwise to use the same strategies over and over.



> Honestly, none of that has anything to really do with my point:
> 
> How it actually would go doesn't really matter to me since I don't think Nagato is as powerful as people make him out to be (or rather, I think he's less effective than Pain...). However, I don't agree with people using Naruto, Bee, and Itachi vs Nagato as proof of how a fight between Nagato and Itachi would go...



Well, it has _some_ bearing to how a fight might go. I was trying to point out that Naruto and Bee didn't help out _that_ much. It's at least an outline of Itachi's capabilities against Nagato, mainly his ability to assess Nagato's abilities and find his weaknesses quickly.

I agree that a one on one fight would definitely be different. I even take it further to say a non plot-based fight would be MUCH different. Whoever would win that fight, it would not be easy, or short. As far as plot fights go, we pretty much know the outcome of any battle Itachi enters.

Otherwise, I think it's a tossup. I use this fight to show Itachi's capabilities with handling Nagato's abilities and holding his own, though it's _possible_ that the fight could happen like this one. Nagato charges a Bunshen, and another Bunshen rushes in to attack, which Nagato defeats thanks to shared vision, which gives the real Itachi valuable knowledge about Nagato's shared vision, and allows him to counter it.

But it's unlikely it would happen this way. But I could see Itachi using Bunshen feints to accomplish more of the same. I prefer to use the fight for examples, rather than a direct play-by-play of a 1 vs 1, so don't get me wrong -/_\-


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## Nikushimi (Sep 26, 2011)

Apparently Nagato couldn't just ST the blade or summon something to deflect it in time. So yeah, it was impressive.


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## eyeknockout (Sep 26, 2011)

A impressive thing is that when third raikage was sealed by gaara he just used a raiton punch and broke out, when 2nd mizukage was sealed by many sealing tags he just exploded and broke it (even though they are both trying to lose, just like nagato).

The fact that nagato couldn't absorb, repel, negate totsuka sword is an indication that it is a one hit KO technique move. even though people are saying "nagato regained conciousness after being hit" the kages had conciousness and could break out of sealing, nagato couldn't.

even at first 2nd mizukage dispelled gaara's sealing Look at the distance distance traveled before and after casting the Jutsu. There almost is none.

 so it is clear that if the ninja has a technique that could dispel sealing, they would use it. the saying " nagato regained conciousness after" works even more against nagato since that means even though they are programmed to react upon enemy techniques nagato couldn't do anything.


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## LostSelf (Sep 26, 2011)

Lol no.

This is not a feat.

Nagato was like a robot, with explicit orders to CAPTURE Naruto and Bee. So he was obeying (against his will but he was) that order. So he was NOT going to engage Itachi in combat and was not gonna even dodge.

Itachi sealed him via plot. Because, how someone like Kabuto, so smart, will forget about Itachi, his OWN summon?

That does not apply as a feat. Itachi was used because that was the only way to seal Nagato.

The one hyped in that chapter was Nagato, and he was very well hyped.

But some Itachi fans are happy because Itachi "sealed" someone stated as "superior" to him and the Uchihas.


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## eyeknockout (Sep 26, 2011)

TheIronMan said:


> Lol no.
> 
> This is not a feat.
> 
> ...



it's statements like this that show how imperfect some nagato fans are...it's a feat

a katon can cause a cloud of dust, there's a distraction

a clone can distract also, it has been proven itachi's clones can use genjutsu which is very dangerous

itachi showed he can use genjutsu and ninjutsu consecutively

nagato had to regen, every other edo was fighting against their own will but could still fight perfectly fine.

itachi dodged shinra tensei (more canon than him being destroyed by it) so if that was nagato he wouldn't have expected itachi back either, just like what happened vs kakashi and naruto, he lets his guard down after a strong shinra tensei

I am not at all bashing nagato, but people just need to admit that there's no confirmed superiority. it's all opinionated


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## Jυstin (Sep 26, 2011)

You don't even need Katon's to get rid of LOS for a Susano'o stab.

Exploding tags, smoke bombs, flash bombs, Bunshen Daibakuha, etc. - all capable of producing "dust".


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## Fatback (Sep 26, 2011)

It's not like he one paneled a fodder... Prett impressive given Naruto and Bee were struggling.


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## LostSelf (Sep 27, 2011)

eyeknockout said:


> it's statements like this that show how imperfect some nagato fans are...it's a feat
> 
> a katon can cause a cloud of dust, there's a distraction
> 
> ...



Imperfect? Some people are acting like Itachi defeated Nagato in a straight fight.

Nagato was beign controlled, he was not paying attention to Itachi.

No, it's not a feat, it's plot. That was the only way Nagato could've been sealed.

This is what people can't see. They see what they want to see.

Nagato was obeying, his order was to take out Naruto and Bee and he was doing it quite well, he never, ever, cared about Itachi.

For Nagato, Itachi never existed. Even tenten could've achieved that feat.

If this is the best excuse Itachi fans can get to put him above Nagato, then it's a real shame.

Lol at Itachi dodging Shinra Tensei. Itachi never existed for Nagato in this fight. He used ST on Bee and Naruto, the only things that he had in mind with the orders Kabuto gave him.

Bad, bad way to say Itachi can beat Nagato.




Nikushimi said:


> Plot one-panelled Robot Nagato. Three times.
> 
> Your tears are delicious.



Fixxed


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

If Kishi wanted to make Nagato > Itachi, he would have made Nagato finish off Itachi and let Bee and Naruto kill Nagato. But he didn't. So it means

Itachi > Nagato.


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> If Kishi wanted to make Nagato > Itachi, he would have made Nagato finish off Itachi and let Bee and Naruto kill Nagato. But he didn't. So it means
> 
> Itachi > Nagato.



Except Naruto and Bee have no sealing techniques. Nice attempt at trolling though.


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

(Long ass post incoming, I'll add manga pages when I get time.)

The real question for you guys should be this. 

Considering Naruto is present Nagato can't win or the manga ends.
Therefore how does Kishi beat Nagato realistically?

The main character cannot die here, but there's no honest plausible way for the three of them to beat Nagato other than Totsuka sword.

I do believe the Totsuka sword is very likely to be repelled by shinra tensei. This is because I will always argue that Susanoo is affected by gravity.

Here's why.

Gravity affects a Susanoo User. Also susanoo has never been shown to be able to leave it's user's vicinity.
Therefore if a shinra tensei, sends _Itachi_ flying than Susanoo will follow him. 

And if Susanoo goes flying away so does his totsuka sword. 

Before you say Susanoo tanks shinra tensei, Susanoo doesn't tank explosive forces like Shinra tensei well, because it's not anchored into the ground. It's why users can be pushed and pulled around. 
Proof - Baku or Kage summit (Although the kage summit is a weaker version of Susanoo.)

Before people say Itachi isn't affected by gravity inside Susanoo. () 
If that was true Itachi would be floating inside of Susanoo. 
Also if this was true he wouldn't have been affected by Chibaku tensei. 

Proof - Chibaku tensei scene, Susanoo followed Itachi getting sucked up into chibaku tensei.

Before people argue that Shinra tensei/gravity cannot penetrate Susanoo. If Sasuke can get pulled by the Baku's wind, then Gravity will push him.

Also if gravity can attract something, then it will also be able to repell it.
Proof - Chibaku Tensei Scene

However Itachi fans still have their genjutsu argument. Considering the rinnegan was retconned into only allowing it's user access to the 5 chakra natures, Nagato isn't afforded yin mastery by his rinnegan doujutsu anymore.
(Jiraiya and Nagato scene - volume 7 onwards)
Read shonensuki's and Takl's posts to confirm this yourself in this thread. 

However his status as a rikudou does give him access to yin-yang manipulation, therefore he is still a yin user by that method. But as it's not a doujutsu thing anymore the genjutsu defence argument is even further up for debate.

Personally though, I think as a doujutsu it's gonna be fairly good against genjutsu, if only because the rinnegan can see chakra too. Whether that is good enough for the sharingan though nobody knows.

Conclusion 
-Itachi fans, please give up arguing against Shinra Tensei being useless against the Totsuka Sword. Nagato fans have the advantage in _that_ argument.

-Nagato fans, please give up arguing about the rinnegan's genjutsu defence, Itachi fans have the advantage in _that_ argument.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> Except Naruto and Bee have no sealing techniques. Nice attempt at trolling though.



Sasori got emotion and passed and crumbled away.

Don't use trolling when you don't even know what it means. What a nergin.


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Sasori got emotion and passed and crumbled away.



And that has worked since... when?



> Don't use trolling when you don't even know what it means. What a nergin.



I'll stop using the term when you stop providing the need for it.


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## Jυstin (Sep 27, 2011)

> -Itachi fans, please give up arguing against Shinra Tensei being useless against the Totsuka Sword. Nagato fans have the advantage in that argument.



No one's arguing this, actually. Not that I know of :S


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> No one's arguing this, actually. Not that I know of :S



Lol I know the clever Itachi fans don't argue that, it's the crazy fans I'm trying to pre-emtively stop.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Sep 27, 2011)

Nagato was being controlled completely by Kabuto, why does everyone forget that?


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## Black☆Star (Sep 27, 2011)

Bee would have one-shotted Itachi with a thrown sword if Nagato hadn't save him


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## Taijukage (Sep 27, 2011)

Spare me. If Itachi was so smart, he wouldn't be almost the entire reason sasuke is now a "menace".

Anyway it was a fight that was not really a good showcase of who had the greater power. Itachi's fatal flaw was taken away in his Edo Body, meaning he could spam Susanoo and Amaratasu. Until I see a live itachi vs live uncontrolled uncrippled nagato in his prime, we can't say for sure itachi > nagato.


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## Jυstin (Sep 27, 2011)

CA182 said:


> Lol I know the clever Itachi fans don't argue that, it's the crazy fans I'm trying to pre-emtively stop.



They might try to argue that Totsuka can't be repelled, and they _might_ be right. Not sure how it effects spiritual items, but you are right that it could be used to repel Itachii and throw him off balance. A good defense if he can react to Totsuka trying to go for the kill.

An indirect attack, going after Itachi to stop Totsuka. That is a true ninja strategy.



jimbob631 said:


> Itachi fans have created there own religion.....



This is where you're mistaken. I'll show you why.



> Itachi fans look at the fight and say Itachi soloed Nagato, to think that you have to ignore large sections of the chapters.



Nagato _tards_ like to look at the fight and treat it as if Naruto and Bee held Nagato down while Itachi sealed him. Naruto and Bee were there, but their involvement, and more so the assistance they provided, was minimal.

The fact more focused on wasn't that "Itrachi solo'd Nagato", it's that what Itachi did was pretty impressive, considering how Naruto and Bee were struggling.



> Itachi fans like to think Itachi would have beaten a non edo Nagato because he took his arms off. You ignore the fact that Itachi took a depleted crippled Nagato's arm off first



Nagato is not "crippled". His mobility comes from his disuse of his body. He could improve his body's condition with practice and regular physical exercise. It's not a handicap. Nagato just has a 1/5 in mobility, if mobility were a skill. He's not going to have the mobility of Itachi, who physically trained his ass off every day. It's audacious to expect Nagato to possess a skill he didn't work for.

Also, crippled or not, that extra bit of muscle wouldn't have protected his arm from Amaterasu. He'd have lost it all the same. Even A with his bulging muscles had to lose his arm.



> along with Kabuto not paying attention so he could listen to Itachi and the second time his arm came off he was busy with two jinchuriki.



This is another fallacious assumption. Kabuto was not "listening" for Bee either while he was busy with Naruto. What was Bee's excuse then? Nagato was "distracted" with Naruto, but he still intercepted Bee and trapped him, because of the Rin'negan's shared vision. That's what they were there for. That was their job, to survey the area and watch Nagato's back. Nagato/Kabuto was not distracted.

The only difference between Bee's rescue attempt and Itachi's was that Itachi first incapacitated the other Rin'negan eyes to stop the shared vision.

Itachi was just smarter than Bee.



> You say Itachi took down CT and then soloed Nagato, you forget it took two jinchuriki to help.



Again, this is a fallacious statement and the reason WHY the Itachi fan base says such things about other fanbases.

As an Itachi fan, I have the sense to say, "Hey, maybe Itachi needed the help. But still, we don't know for sure, because we don't know the durability of CT nor did we know the power of each individual projectile. Itachi would logically have all of them attack anyway to ensure success."

But on your side, you outright say, "CT wouldn't have been destroyed without help. I'm 100% sure about this.".

The fact is, we simply don't know. Neither CT's durability nor the individual projectile strength is quantifiable. It's not a call either side can make. The side that does start making calls _should_ be criticized.



> Itachi fans are easily the most delusion, rabid, and strangely devoted to a creepy level (the weird church thing being a prime example).



Those are Itachi tards. I'm an Itachi fan, and we're one of the most logical, reasonable, and fair debaters out there. We don't say "Itachi stomps" or "Nagato stomps". We recognize the two for the top tier they are, and that while Itachi has the means to win, he very well can lose outside of a plot-based fight.

We don't worship Itachi because we think he's a god. We love him because he's stayed most true to what a true shinobi of this manga is, without tons of overpowered attacks. He still attacks with simple techniques and relies on skill and strategy. He lives in the shadows, and his deeds go unrecognized. He does not look for fame. He knows what being Hokage means, and passed that to Naruto. He was a silent man, who spoke in short wise parables. Despite his power, he remained a simple ninja, who carried with him secrets of both his true hidden power (I'm talking MS) and his entire life's work.

This is why I truly like Itachi, why I find him interesting. It's not just for power. It's for much more. I get proud of the term "shinobi" when I see him. Many others.. no longer seem like shinobi to me. They're more like... pseudo DBZ characters, maybe even a bit Bleach-ish. They don't remind me of ninjas. Itachi was the perfect ninja. He himself isn't perfect, but he perfectly, or best fits the description of ninja established back in the beginning of this manga.

He's stayed so true to that image, that many underestimate his abilities to handle current characters, like SM Naruto, Bee, A, etc., simply because they possess overpowered DBZ abilities, and have tons of powerful techniques and tons of chakra, while Itachi has low chakra and mid-low level techniques, yet he still manages with it, because of his own hax - intelligence and skill, and they make raw power itself looks small in comparison.

They've lost faith in true ninja. They don't believe that any who are like ninja from part 1 can compete with these seemingly overpowered characters. Such characters, even Itachi, are treated like Iruka. That's how they see the old fashioned _true_ ninjas in comparison. They've forgotten what ninja are.



Does that sound delusional to you?


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> He wasn't talking about Amaterasu. He said "I see what you DID", not "I see what you're doing/about to do". He was talking past tense, something Itachi had already done. This came right after Nagato asked, _"... that crow is yours, isn't it? *What did you do with it?!*"_
> 
> Basically, Nagato figured out what Itachi did with it.
> 
> ...



Yes, he figured it out as Itachi's bloodlusted eye was staring at him.As i already mentioned.Don't you get the timing of that one?Right after the panel with Itachi's bloodlusted eye, come on..




And Edos are not allowed to fight each other.That was also established.Nagato can sense Amaterasu, that was also established and yet he did nothing to stop it.


And again, there wasn't Nagato going "!!" like the other two times Itachi actually managed to surprise him.Or even "Oh, shit.. Oh. noooooes..." either from Kabuto or Nagato.




Jυstin said:


> You don't even need Katon's to get rid of LOS for a Susano'o stab.
> 
> Exploding tags, smoke bombs, flash bombs, Bunshen Daibakuha, etc. - all capable of producing "dust".



All things that will put Nagato on his guard.It's not the same as Kabuto controlled Nagato against the dust cloud created by the destruction of his own jutsu.If Itachi himself sets out to create a distraction, Nagato will figure it out.


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## Jυstin (Sep 27, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Yes, he figured it out as Itachi's bloodlusted eye was staring at him.As i already mentioned.Don't you get the timing of that one?Right after the panel with Itachi's bloodlusted eye, come on..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, Itachi had _just_ used Amaterasu on the Cerberus, so one's reasoning could be that that's what the blood was from, and not from another Amaterasu about to come out.

Where was it established that Edo Tensei aren't allowed to fight each other? Blinding the Rin'negan would have then been unnecessary. Also, defending from unfriendly attacks doesn't constitute as fighting, and it was stated that if an Edo Tensei can, it'll react to offensive attacks automatically. I don't think Itachi counted as one of the Edo Tensei in Kabuto's ranks once he freed himself from its control.

My other point was that, if it didn't surprise him, he was unable to react to it, otherwise he would have automatically done so.



> All things that will put Nagato on his guard.It's not the same as Kabuto controlled Nagato against the dust cloud created by the destruction of his own jutsu.If Itachi himself sets out to create a distraction, Nagato will figure it out.



I could see an exploding clone causing some surprise. Sure, in a standstill where smoke bombs are thrown, one's guard would be up, but in the heat and chaos of battle, such tricks are more surprising than not.

It wouldn't be enough to use the strategy I mentioned. You'd have to use it strategically. That much is a given, so I'll give that point to you. I was of the same mind.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

> Well, Itachi had just used Amaterasu on the Cerberus, so one's reasoning could be that that's what the blood was from, and not from another Amaterasu about to come out.



One could only assume that if Itachi didn't have his other eye closed and wasn't staring at Nagato like that..



> Where was it established that Edo Tensei aren't allowed to fight each other?



2



> Blinding the Rin'negan would have then been unnecessary.



Nagato had his mind wiped.He was nothing but Kabuto's puppet.Besides if there was an order not to fight your fellow Edos, Kabuto would've done something about that at that point don't you think? 



> Also, defending from unfriendly attacks doesn't constitute as fighting, from unfriendly attacks doesn't constitute as fighting, and it was stated that if an Edo Tensei can, it'll react to offensive attacks automatically.
> I don't think Itachi counted as one of the Edo Tensei in Kabuto's ranks once he freed himself from its control.



I doubt Kabuto accounted for Itachi breaking free and made sure to add an exception to the rule of fighting against your fellow Edos.

And one way of responding to Amaterasu includes attacking Itachi himself.Using his forest busting ST.



> It wouldn't be enough to use the strategy I mentioned. You'd have to use it strategically. That much is a given, so I'll give that point to you. I was of the same mind.



Glad we agree


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## ? (Sep 27, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> This is a pretty bold claim to make, since we don't know how Edo Tensei discerns friend from foe.


Not really. It was already stated that Edo's aren't allowed to fight one another, so why would the auto-pilot be for someone Nagato is completely forbidden to fight?


> Naturally, the way to do this is intent. Nagato had realized what Itachi did BEFORE Itachi used Amaterasu, so that would essentially "reprogram" Itachi as an enemy, if we're going with this theory.


Again, Kabuto specifically made it where they couldn't fight one another, so it shouldn't just automatically "reprogram him". Kabuto would have to do it manually. 

What I don't get from Itachi fans is, if Kishi's intention with this fight was to depict Itachi as stronger, why not have Itachi solo? Why did he give Nagato an excuse for his defeat? Why have Itachi lecture Naruto about how help from others is essential for success right after they all defeat Nagato? When Kishi wanted to show Itachi > Others like Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke, and Deidara he made it clear. Why make this situation so ambiguous if it is meant to be clear?


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

A question begs to be answered, though:

Why did Kishimoto write the battle in a way that ONLY Itachi managed to do *any* damage to Nagato, let alone take him down? 

Everything that Naruto and Bee planned, failed.

Why is that?

This is how Kishimoto preferred to write the battle. He allowed Naruto and Bee to be handled easily by Nagato, but kept Itachi away while they were being beaten. Why not write the battle in a way that allows Itachi to struggle against Nagato as well? At least take SOME beating. Itachi wasn't seen on panel taking ANY kind of damage against anyone. He is the ONLY character that this can be said about. 

Why is that?


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## Tengu (Sep 27, 2011)

This thread is just 
Of course for the hatters sealing prime Nagato isn't an impressive feat because it was done by Itachi, if it were done by Minato, people would say Minato>Rikudou Sennin.


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Tengu said:


> if it were done by Minato, people would say Minato>Rikudou Sennin.



No they wouldn't. And that's the difference between the two fandoms.


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## Tengu (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> No they wouldn't. And that's the difference between the two fandoms.



Yeah yeah, you say that now, but after A's flashback about Minato, people were saying Minato soloed A and Killer Bee then.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> No they wouldn't. And that's the difference between the two fandoms.



Yes they would. People tend to see the empty parts of the glass when Itachi is concerned even if the glass is almost full. And just the opposite when it comes to Minato.

I remember the Minato fandom somehow found it convenient to assume that Minato's superiorty to Raikage in terms of speed had nothing to do with Hirashin, till we saw that Minato used Hirashin against Raikage. And that notion was supported through the forums for weeks. 


on topic : 

It was impressive because Itachi bottled up the so called GOD in the span of half a chapter. 

The Cripple couldn't react to totsuka, he'd get sealed eitherway. At that point his mobilty was hardly an issue.

And.. people were jizzing in their pants a week before, when the same cripple took a dump on Naruto and Bee. But all of a sudden, their stance has changed when he got 1 paneled by Itachi.
A bit funny, don't you think ?


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Yeah yeah, you say that now, but after A's flashback about Minato, people were saying Minato soloed A and Killer Bee then.



Look, I have no horse in this race as I don't care for either character, but I have never seen one Minato fan blow anything Minato's done out of proportion. Likewise, I have _seen_ Itachi fans entertain the notion that he'd be a good match for Rikudou. Hell, some go as far as to say Rikudou is no match for him. 

Itachi fans are the most rabid, hyperbolic and crazy fanbase there is. They're also the most insecure. So insecure in fact that if you level even the most minute of criticisms to Itachi, they go apeshit trying to defend their little Mary Sue. There's even a topic recently posted where the guy had to openly apologize IN THE TITLE just for having the nerve to claim that Itachi peaked too early. 

This type of wank where you take one impressive feat and blow it completely out of proportion is what leaves people to dislike Itachi and his fanbase as much as they do. As it's already been pointed out, Nagato was not concerned with Itachi, Nagato was not programmed to fight Itachi and Itachi needed Naruto and Bee's help to stop Chibaku Tensei but Itachi fans have taken what happened in the manga and completely disregarded it just so they can actually believe Itachi beat Nagato one on one simply because he landed the final blow. Which, again, was only possible because Itachi is the only one of the three who is capable of performing any sealing techniques.

To say that Minato, or any character, is wanked to the levels of Itachi is completely ludicrous. Only Itachi fans make this claim.


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## BroKage (Sep 27, 2011)

arednad said:


> Itachi vs Nagato was much like Muu vs Naruto. Yes the victor had help, which enabled them to win the fight, quicker, but it is implied they could have won by themselves.



No it wasn't, not in either fight.

Itachi might not have been able to break Chibaku Tensei alone.

Naruto has no air mobility.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> No they wouldn't. And that's the difference between the two fandoms.



OOOOOOH PUH-LEASE!

I'm not a delusional tard; I know the Itachi fandom is comprised of some fanatics.

However, the Minato fandom is no different at all. I've seen quite a few prominent Minato fandoms take some very large and scary leaps in logic based on what they've read in the manga. 

The problem is, and what many do not want to accept is, the Itachi fandom isn't making up shit from thin air. 

Why aren't the fandoms of Ten Ten; Neji; Lee; Kakashi; Gai; and Shizune claiming that their favorite characters are at the top of the shinobi food chain?

It's because Kishimoto has provided not a grain of evidence to support these claims. THAT is why some fandoms are less rabid. Period. Fandoms of characters with great hype and great feats will always be the most vocal and the most annoying. 

The problem is, Itachi is fresh out off a battle in which he killed Nagato twice. The events that led to those defeats have been MUCH argued, but the results remain the same. 

If the idea of Itachi > Nagato was baseless and insane, then Kishimoto would HARDLY have allowed him to take him down TWICE. 

On some level, the people that debate with us know we are right. We may not be 100% correct in how we interpret things, but if rival fandoms felt there was no truth to the things we say, they would not waste their time debating with us.

For instance, if I were to create a thread arguing that Bee was stronger than Nagato, who would take it seriously? Everything Bee attempted against Nagato failed. If Kishimoto wanted us to believe Bee was stronger than Nagato, having his every plan against Nagato fail was not the way to drive that point home. 

Once again, the Itachi fandom is only annoying because, on some level, rival fandoms fear what we're saying could be true, and they do not want it to be. 

No different than when I used to argue Jiraiya vs Itachi all the time. If I truly thought that Jiraiya > Itachi was a joke, I would not have spent the first two years of my time on NF arguing it.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> And that has worked since... when?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll stop using the term when you stop providing the need for it.



Since last time Naruto confronted Nagato and he revived everyone.

Or just stop using the term when you are getting dumpstered. If Kishi wanted to prove Nagato > Itachi he would have already made Itachi get some scratch but Itachi outskilled Nagato in that fight.


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## Star★Platinum (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> A question begs to be answered, though:
> 
> Why did Kishimoto write the battle in a way that ONLY Itachi managed to do *any* damage to Nagato, let alone take him down?
> 
> ...



People tend to ignore this. Or say he was distracted, Or Kabuto didn't notice Itachi etc.


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> I'm not a delusional tard; I know the Itachi fandom is comprised of some fanatics.



From what I've experienced, 95% of Itachi's fanbase is the same. Hell, 95% of the Uchiha fanbase is equally as annoying.

If you're not like this, more power to you. But I've run into too many like this to not assume the worst.



> However, the Minato fandom is no different at all. I've seen quite a few prominent Minato fandoms take some very large and scary leaps in logic based on what they've read in the manga.



I haven't seen any of this, but the absence of evidence yada yada yada. It's natural that the Itachi fanbase is threatened by Minato as his fanbase is equally as large and Minato's feats are equally as impressive.

The difference here is that I've only seen members of Itachi's fanbase make this claim against Minato's, yet I've seen members of _every_ fanbase who are sick of Itachi's.



> The problem is, and what many do not want to accept is, the Itachi fandom isn't making up shit from thin air.



So what feats does Itachi have that places him above Rikudou? What feats does he have that can place him in a favorable situation against all three Sannin at once? What feats does Itachi have that can place him in a winning situation against multiple Kage-level opponents all gunning for him. What feats does he have that places him above all of the Naruto-verse? His feats aren't more impressive than Nagato's, or Pain's, or Madara's, or Hashirama's, or Minato's or Naruto's or Sasuke's. Why does he instantly trump them? Not just trump them, why does his fanbase see these people as trash compared to him?



> Why aren't the fandoms of Ten Ten; Neji; Lee; Kakashi; Gai; and Shizune claiming that their favorite characters are at the top of the shinobi food chain?



Seriously? This is your counter argument? 



> It's because Kishimoto has provided not a grain of evidence to support these claims. THAT is why some fandoms are less rabid. Period. Fandoms of characters with great hype and great feats will always be the most vocal and the most annoying.



Evidence is important. Evidence without context is asinine. 



> The problem is, Itachi is fresh out off a battle in which he killed Nagato twice. The events that led to those defeats have been MUCH argued, but the results remain the same.



If results are all that matter then Itachi lost to Sasuke. See how this works?



> If the idea of Itachi > Nagato was baseless and insane, then Kishimoto would HARDLY have allowed him to take him down TWICE.



Nagato had orders and they weren't to fight Itachi. Itachi blind-sided him and then sealed him. Impressive, I will admit. But the claim that Itachi did it all with no help and that feats against a guy who wasn't concerned with him and was incapable of fighting him places Itachi above Nagato is flimsy. At best.



> On some level, the people that debate with us know we are right. We not be 100% correct in how we interpret things, but if rivals felt there was no truth to the things we say, they would not waste their time.



Nobody's arguing that Itachi isn't strong, but to claim he can beat everyone in the Naruto-verse, including Rikudou, one on one is ridiculous. Also claiming that he can defeat large groups of Kage-level shinobi in the Naruto-verse is equally as ludicrous. Two claims I've seen routinely in these forums.



> For instance, if I were to create a thread arguing that Bee was stronger than Nagato, who would take it seriously? Everything Bee attempted against Nagato failed. If Kishimoto wanted us to believe Bee was stronger than Nagato, having his every plan against Nagato fail was not the way to drive that point home.



Completely different scenario. I hate to beat a dead horse here, but Nagato was programmed to extract the bijuu from Bee, not to fight Itachi. Aside from that, no one has ever even tried to argue that anyway.



> Once again, the Itachi fandom is only annoying because, on some level, rival fandoms fear what we're saying could be true, and they do not want it to be.



It's not fear, it's simply annoying and insipid. 



> No different than when I used to argue Jiraiya vs Itachi all the time. If I truly thought that Jiraiya > Itachi was a joke, I would not have spent the first two years of my time on NF arguing it.



It's not just Jiraiya. It's the claims that Itachi can solo all three Sannin at the same time with virtually no effort. The fact that he has been claimed to be able to defeat the kages simultaneously with virtually no effort. The fact that he has been claimed to be able to solo The Six Paths of Pain with virtually no effort. The fact that people have claimed that his speed matches or bests RM Naruto.



Vincent2k said:


> Since last time Naruto confronted Nagato and he revived everyone.
> 
> Or just stop using the term when you are getting dumpstered. If Kishi wanted to prove Nagato > Itachi he would have already made Itachi get some scratch but Itachi outskilled Nagato in that fight.



Because Nagato was not programmed to fight Itachi. He was specifically programmed to extract the bijuus from Naruto and Bee. As seen with the situation between Muu and the Second Mizukage, edos are incapable of fighting one another. Itachi simply took advantage of this. Itachi fans completely disregard this and simply place Itachi above Nagato. Context be damned.



X Itachi X said:


> People tend to ignore this. Or say he was distracted, Or Kabuto didn't notice Itachi etc.



You know what people tend to ignore? The fact that Nagato was completely incapable of fighting back.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> Because Nagato was not programmed to fight Itachi. He was specifically programmed to extract the bijuus from Naruto and Bee. As seen with the situation between Muu and the Second Mizukage, edos are incapable of fighting one another. Itachi simply took advantage of this. Itachi fans completely disregard this and simply places Itachi above Nagato. Context be damned.



To "extract" the bijuu from Naruto and Bee, he has to kill Itachi aswell - or else Itachi won't let Nagato just take the corpse with him, Itachi will deal with that. To ensure that, Nagato has to finish off Itachi first so he don't get in the way.

But upon realizing that Itachi already figured out everything in a whim and sealed Nagato.

Nagato aimed to kill them with CT but Itachi figured out his weakness at whim again


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> To "extract" the bijuu from Naruto and Bee, he has to kill Itachi aswell - or else Itachi won't let Nagato just take the corpse with him, Itachi will deal with that. To ensure that, Nagato has to finish off Itachi first so he don't get in the way.
> 
> But upon realizing that Itachi already figured out everything in a whim and sealed Nagato.
> 
> Nagato aimed to kill them with CT but Itachi figured out his weakness at whim again



Ok I just have one thing to mention, Kabuto and Edo tensei's when the eyes are darkened are the same as Sasori and his human puppets.

The actions the human puppet/edo tensei makes are the result of the controller.
So it's not "Nagato aimed to kill them with CT" but "*Kabuto* aimed to kill them with *Nagato's CT*."


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> To "extract" the bijuu from Naruto and Bee, he has to kill Itachi aswell - or else Itachi won't let Nagato just take the corpse with him, Itachi will deal with that. To ensure that, Nagato has to finish off Itachi first so he don't get in the way.



Edos are completely incapable of fighting one another. No matter what Itachi did, Nagato was completely incapable of fighting back. It's really that simple. Like I said with Muu and the Mizukage. They were itching to fight one another but were completely incapable of doing so.

The only reason Itachi was in the line of fire for CT was because he was standing next to Naruto and Bee. 



> But upon realizing that Itachi already figured out everything in a whim and sealed Nagato.



With Naruto and Bee's help against an opponent that couldn't fight back, not against Itachi.



> Nagato aimed to kill them with CT but Itachi figured out his weakness at whim again



Itachi saw the magnetism effects of CT and figured their strongest attacks would do. It doesn't take a genius to discern this. The fact that he seemed smarter than the two biggest knuckleheads in the manga isn't anything to write home about.


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2011)

This is pretty ridiculous so I just had to respond:



Jυstin said:


> Nagato _tards_ like to look at the fight and treat it as if Naruto and Bee held Nagato down while Itachi sealed him. Naruto and Bee were there, but their involvement, and more so the assistance they provided, was *minimal*.


Itachi-fans People keep saying Naruto and B's assistance was minimal, but this is utterly ridiculous. At the start of the fight B and Naruto acted as a distraction [especially considering Kabuto was controlling Nagato and ordering him to focus on capturing those 2], which obviously made it easier for Itachi to ambush Nagato with his Kunai and Susnao'o. Than after that Naruto and B provided Itachi with their strongest attacks Bijuu Bomb and FRS. 

Two Kage Class Shinobi acting as a distraction and than following Itachi's orders and using their strongest attack for his sake is not minimal assistance. If B and Naruto weren't their who knows if Itachi would have been able to ambush Nagato like that and who knows if Itachi could have busted CT by himself [Probably not].



> The fact more focused on wasn't that "Itrachi solo'd Nagato", it's that what Itachi did was pretty impressive, considering how Naruto and Bee were struggling.


Itachi was the third wheel, which is why he did so much better than Naruto and B. What I mean by this is Itachi attacked Nagato after he was already distracted by Kabuto ordering him to capture Naruto and B. I'm pretty sure that if ether B or Naruto were the third person to attack Nagato they would have also succeed in freeing the other two, since Nagato can only multi task so much. 

The only area Itachi out performed B and Naruto was in the intelligence department, but B and Naruto out performed Itachi in the raw power department so it balances out. 



> Nagato is not "crippled". His mobility comes from his disuse of his body. He could improve his body's condition with practice and regular physical exercise. It's not a handicap. Nagato just has a 1/5 in mobility, if mobility were a skill. He's not going to have the mobility of Itachi, who physically trained his ass off every day. It's audacious to expect Nagato to possess a skill he didn't work for.


Nagato was crippled or are you forgetting the fact that Nagato was in a wheel chair and had his legs nearly blown off by Hanzo?



> Also, crippled or not, that extra bit of muscle wouldn't have protected his arm from Amaterasu. He'd have lost it all the same. Even A with his bulging muscles had to lose his arm.


True, but Nagato can easily heal himself with Hell Path or Grow new arms with Asura Path. 



> This is another fallacious assumption. Kabuto was not "listening" for Bee either while he was busy with Naruto. What was Bee's excuse then? Nagato was "distracted" with Naruto, but he still intercepted Bee and trapped him, because of the Rin'negan's shared vision. That's what they were there for. That was their job, to survey the area and watch Nagato's back. Nagato/Kabuto was not distracted.
> 
> The only difference between Bee's rescue attempt and Itachi's was that Itachi first incapacitated the other Rin'negan eyes to stop the shared vision.
> 
> Itachi was just smarter than Bee.


The difference is 2 major things

1. Nagato was dealing with both B and Naruto when Itachi came in
2. B's rescue attempt exposed the fact that Nagato was using Shared Vision

Which translates to Nagato being even more distracted and Itachi now having knowledge on Nagato's shared vision. Which is what allowed him to ambush Nagato so effectively. 

Again if B or Naruto were the third person attack Nagato they both would have likely succeed. Naruto since he already had knowledge of Shared vision [unless Kishi PIS'd him into a mindless idiot] and B since he or Hachibi would have realized Nagato used Shared vision when whoever tried the second rescue attempt. And due to Nagato already having to deal with 2 other Kage Class individuals its highly unlikely he could react to any thing the third person did.



> The fact is, we simply don't know. Neither CT's durability nor the individual projectile strength is quantifiable. It's not a call either side can make


1. Many people think that at least Itachi believed he needed help to bust CT since it seems highly unlikely that Itachi would wast time allowing CT to get bigger and more durable to explain shit to B and Naruto if he believed he could bust CT himself. And honestly assuming Itachi needed help to succeed especially after the whole speech Itachi made in the next chapter about how he failed when he didn't rely on his companions, is a far more likely option than assuming Itachi would have been able to succeed by himself.

2. Itachi-fans use this battle as basis for arguing that Itachi is > or = to Nagato, even though as you say they don't even know if Itachi would have been able to counter CT by himself or succeed against Nagato in general by himself. So that to me seems like a even more illogical argument than believing Itachi could not counter CT by himself since he asked B and Naruto for help.



> Those are Itachi tards. I'm an Itachi fan, and we're one of the most logical, reasonable, and fair debaters out there. We don't say "Itachi stomps" or "Nagato stomps".


So you and like 2 other people are the only Itachi-fans on the forums?



> We recognize the two for the top tier they are, and that while Itachi has the means to win, he very well can lose outside of a plot-based fight.


Nether are top tier. Rikudo-Sannin is Top Tier and that's it. People need to stop trying to put their favorite character at Top Tier.



> We don't worship Itachi because we think he's a god. We love him because he's stayed most true to what a true shinobi of this manga is, without tons of overpowered attacks.


Yup Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and summoning a giant War God aren't overpowered attacks at all...




> This is why I truly like Itachi, why I find him interesting. It's not just for power. It's for much more. I get proud of the term "shinobi" when I see him. Many others.. no longer seem like shinobi to me. They're more like... pseudo DBZ characters, maybe even a bit Bleach-ish. They don't remind me of ninjas. Itachi was the perfect ninja. He himself isn't perfect, but he perfectly, or best fits the description of ninja established back in the beginning of this manga.
> 
> He's stayed so true to that image, that many underestimate his abilities to handle current characters, like SM Naruto, Bee, A, etc., simply because they possess overpowered DBZ abilities, and have tons of powerful techniques and tons of chakra, while Itachi has low chakra and mid-low level techniques, yet he still manages with it, because of his own hax - intelligence and skill, and they make raw power itself looks small in comparison.


What is this none sense about Itachi managing with Mid-low level techniques because of intelligence and skill? Itachi has some of thee highest level techniques in the manga thanks to Sharingan - Mangekyo Sharingan. You make it sound like he has Asuma's move-set and is still able to handle characters like SM Naruto, B, etc... when no that's not true at all, he can handle those characters due to having some of thee most overpowered - Hax techniques in the manga, I.E. just having to make eye contact to trap someone in a so far unbreakable one shot technique, just having to gaze on some one to light them on fire by a so far inextinguishable [aside from the caster] flames, and being able to summon a war god that has a so far unbreakable shield and a one-shot pwn stick. 

Itachi beating people with low-mid level techniques give me a break. 



> They've lost faith in true ninja. They don't believe that any who are like ninja from part 1 can compete with these seemingly overpowered characters. Such characters, even Itachi, are treated like Iruka. That's how they see the old fashioned true ninjas in comparison. They've forgotten what ninja are.


Itachi is not treated like Iruka, when has anyone ever made that comparison? Itachi is not an old fashion true ninja, he uses fucking eye hax BS, the only old fashioned true ninja would be some one like Hanzo who is just really skilled at using his weapon and utilizes poisons to enhance his fighting capabilities. Hanzo is as close as we get to a traditional or old fashion ninja [Ninja with not to far powerscaled abilities], while Itachi is about as far away as we get from an traditional old fashioned ninja.




> Does that sound delusional to you?


YES


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

X Itachi X said:


> People tend to ignore this. Or say he was distracted, Or Kabuto didn't notice Itachi etc.



Yes as this is what Kabuto's words make us believe.



Divinstrosity said:


> A question begs to be answered, though:
> 
> Why did Kishimoto write the battle in a way that ONLY Itachi managed to do *any* damage to Nagato, let alone take him down?
> 
> ...



Itachi wasn't hurt (on screen, we don't know what happened after ST..) because the only time Nagato actually attacked him (excluding ST) was with CT against which Itachi had help.

And yes, Itachi was the only one to hurt Nagato with surprise attacks when Nagato had his hands full and after CT was destroyed creating a dust cloud from which Itachi struck (I don't count Amaterasu though as Nagato could sense it coming and saw Itachi looking at him with his bloodlusted eye and didn't do anything about it)

Yes, Itachi was the only one in that battle not to rush in like an idiot and take advantage of certain situations.Not sure what that proves though.As Nagato was mindless puppet and again, Itachi took advantage of certain situations for which Naruto and Bee deserve credit.

And if Naruto and Bee weren't dumbed down (Oh, i forgot he can absorb jutsu.. Oh, uncle Nagato can you teach me that tech?)and Naruto actually used his ultra-mega-super-duper speed and/or the tactics that helped him against Pein, they could've done damage to Nagato as well, but Kishi had to dumb them down for some reason..


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

lol

Well, if almost getting offed by Nagato is considered help, then Naruto and Bee helped a great deal. No argument there.

Turrin, I also loved how you admitted it is an unknown if Itachi could have handled CT alone, and then you said "probably not".

Wow.

How can you say PROBABLY Turrin? He figured out the technique, and how to best attack it, and yet you believe it is probably not likely he could have defeated it alone.

That's not fail logic.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 27, 2011)

Either fucking way you look at it.

Pain > Itachi

I say Pain and not Nagato because thats how is used it in his lifespan.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

IchLiebe said:


> Either fucking way you look at it.
> 
> Pain > Itachi
> 
> I say Pain and not Nagato because thats how is used it in his lifespan.



Well, Nagato was said to be superior to Pain in ways. 

In any case, Itachi didn't face Pain...

...and after what I just saw, I seriously doubt Kishimoto is allowing Itachi to be defeated without difficulty, if at all.


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## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> I'm not a delusional tard





Divinstrosity said:


> Turrin, I also loved how you admitted it is an unknown if Itachi could have handled CT alone, and then you said "probably not".
> 
> Wow.
> 
> ...





Divinstrosity said:


> I'm not a delusional tard



I see...             .


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> lol
> 
> Well, if almost getting offed by Nagato is considered help, then Naruto and Bee helped a great deal. No argument there.
> 
> ...



Figuring out a techniques weakness *does not* equal having the ability/power to utilise that weakness.

Example Kakashi figured out Pain's shinra tensei has a 5 sec interval, didn't stop him getting pwn'ed did it? 

Itachi is always noted for his finesse and intelligence not for having an array of powerful long range techniques. 
To assume Itachi has the power to break Chibaku Tensei alone is, at least to me, flawed logic.

If Itachi had that sort of power he wouldn't have bothered explaining the weakness to Naruto and Bee and would have just destroyed Chibaku tensei by himself earlier.


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> lol
> 
> Well, if almost getting offed by Nagato is considered help, then Naruto and Bee helped a great deal. No argument there.
> 
> ...



And I love how you force me into a bet, loose it, and pussy your way out of it. Than you say you've said all you have to say and your still here talking to me. 

As for your question, how are you even confused about something like that LOL. Its perfectly reasonable to say you feel a certain outcome is probable, while also saying we don't know for sure what the true outcome would be. 

And Itachi figuring out how to defeat CT does not mean he had the raw power to do it himself


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> Edos are completely incapable of fighting one another. No matter what Itachi did, Nagato was completely incapable of fighting back. It's really that simple. Like I said with Muu and the Mizukage. They were itching to fight one another but were completely incapable of doing so.
> 
> The only reason Itachi was in the line of fire for CT was because he was standing next to Naruto and Bee.
> 
> ...




When Itachi broke free from Edo tensei, Kabuto already knew and he said Itachi was on another level from the rest. He wanted to make sure not to make the same mistake again, so to kill Itachi this time for sure.

Kabuto is not aiming to spare Bee and Naruto. Why would he help Madara to genjutsu the whole world ? Kabuto has his own plans. He is not going to get genjutsu'd. He wants only to assist Madara and get sasuke. 

Naruto lacks intelligence most overall, but in battle he know some sense atleast in Pain and Kakuzu fight. He didn't even figure it out even seeing the same technique twice. While Itachi figured instantly.


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## JPongo (Sep 27, 2011)

Itachi one-shotted a stationary Nagato who was busy looking at his destroyed CT while being controlled by noob Kabuto.  Kabuto did underestimate Itachi but undoubtedly knew Itachi was that much inferior to Nagato, otherwise he would have gone after Itachi like he did the jins.

It's that obvious.

If anything, Itachi's intelligence > Kabuto's intelligence, although Kabuto was doing a hundred other things at that moment.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> lol
> 
> Well, if almost getting offed by Nagato is considered help, then Naruto and Bee helped a great deal. No argument there.



By almost getting killed, they made Nagato focus on them instead of going after Itachi.And they also helped destroy CT


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## Shattering (Sep 27, 2011)

This thread again?

Nagato fans, you should be grateful, instead of a panel Itachi give nagato half a chapter to show his arsenal before banish him from the manga.

Itachi has never been defeated in a real combat, not even hurt, and currently after defeating NAGATO (even the shonen jump editors wrote it in a prewiew) is going to face a stronger enemy and one of the final villians.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Two Kage Class Shinobi acting as a distraction and than following Itachi's orders and using their strongest attack for his sake is not minimal assistance. If B and Naruto weren't their who knows if Itachi would have been able to ambush Nagato like that and who knows if Itachi could have busted CT by himself [Probably not].



What kage class stuff did they do to distract Nagato ? Let me say that for you : Nothing. 

Both of them got mandhandled by utter ease.

Noone is ignoring their contribution to the CT, they used their strongest attacks. The question is, whether it was necessary or not. 
Even if it was necessary, it was necessary @ that stage. They chatted for a while as the rubble around the orb got bigger. Its logical to assume that its is possible to destroy the orb with smaller scale attacks @ earlier stages.


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What kage class stuff did they do to distract Nagato ? Let me say that for you : Nothing.
> 
> Both of them got mandhandled by utter ease.
> 
> ...



1- It's the fact that they were Kage Class that caused the distraction. Nagato had to use his one hand and asura path to counter B and had to use his other hand, summon, and human path to counter Naruto. Furthermore his attention was clearly fixed on those two due to Kabuto's command to capture them and B's own rescue attempt clearly exposed shared vision allowing Itachi to figure out how to counter it [you don't think he pulled knowledge of shared vision out of his ass do you?]. Obviously all these factors combined made it easier for Itachi to ambush Nagato in that instance, not to mention an ambush alone makes a person's attack far more likely to be successful [as stated by Shikkamaru in Part I]. 

2- I realize the debate is whether or not it was necessary for B and Naruto to help Itachi. Which is my point is that we don't know if Itachi could have done it alone. Now the reason why I lean towards him not being able to do it alone is two fold.

A. I do not believe Yata Magatama is as strong as Itachi-fans believe it is. I think it's probably roughly around the level of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows since it's a stage 3 Susano'o attack and not a full Susano'o attack, and I doubt an attack of that level is enough to counter a condensed ball of gravity like CT. I mean the CT ball itself has to have a high level of durability or it would be destroyed simply from the large boulders slamming into it at high velocities 

B. If Itachi instantly knew how to counter CT and was confident in countering it himself, than I don't see a reason to waste time explaining it to B/Naruto allowing it become more durable. To me this shows Itachi was not confident in defeating CT by himself and thought he had much better odds relying on B and Naruto helping him. Sure maybe he was wrong to not be confident in his own abilities, but I think its more likely that being as intelligent as he is he properly assessed them and knew he was better off relying on B and Naruto.

The point of all this is that the battle was never Itachi vs Nagato, it was Itachi, B, and Naruto vs Nagato. We don't know how Itachi vs Nagato would have played out but I suspect it would be a-lot different than the way this battle played out. So I don't see how this battle would suggest Itachi > or = to Nagato as many Itachi-fans assert.


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## JPongo (Sep 27, 2011)

If Nagato was fighting ONLY Itachi, Itachi gonna die.

Itachi fans give Itachi the benefit of the doubt everytime even when he's clearly inferior to Nagato.

LOL.


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## Mongolia (Sep 27, 2011)

Face it... Itachi smoked Nagato.

naw just kidding he just put him in a bottle, the place where all fodders go to.


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## shintebukuro (Sep 27, 2011)

I agree that people take the fight out of context. It cannot really be used well to say how Itachi and Nagato compare to one another.

With Chibaku Tensei, Nagato would win. Even without it, we can't be sure.

This could change, however. It depends on what Itachi shows against Kabuto.


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## Sniffers (Sep 27, 2011)

Itachi stabbing Nagato so fast that he couldn't even see, let alone react, is might impressive. Of course the dust cloud may have helped, although it isn't really mentioned as a reason for Nagato's loss at all, but Itachi's taking out the other eyes was.

In the end Kishimoto wrote that battle in such a way that Itachi and Nagato both looked good. Better than the Jinchuuriki even. Nagato never laid a finger on Itachi, but then he wasn't focused on him. Itachi on the other hand was the only one to harm Nagato and as mentioned Nagato couldn't even react. 

If Kishimoto really would've wanted to portray Itachi as weaker, he would've had Itachi take some damage or would've actually made him look like he was struggling along with Naruto and B. Contrary to that Itachi seemed very comfortable in that fight and had a strategy for everything.


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## Rosencrantz (Sep 27, 2011)

Not really once you take everything into context. Nagato was not fighting Itachi. All of his attention and his summons attention were on Naruto and Bee. Both of his hands were tied up with Naruto/Bee as were all of his eyes. This allowed Itachi to sneak over and use kunai on his summons eyes as well as land a hit on Nagato. Itachi then needed Naruto/Bee to defeat Chibaku Tensei, a jutsu that would have killed them all had it not been defeated by their combined efforts. Then the dust cloud that came about from the explosion gave Itachi the cover he needed to then attack with the sword of Totsuka. Kabuto then reveals that Nagato's mobility was hindered and shared vision was to make up for that. All in all, it was a team battle. Nothing Itachi did was really impressive except for the strategy to defeat Chibaku Tensei.


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## boohead (Sep 27, 2011)

Clearly 3v1 is solo 

It's sad that people still have trouble learning what the word solo means, as well as troll.


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## icemaster143 (Sep 27, 2011)

It's pretty much cannon that Itachi couldn't beat CT on his own so I don't see how Itachi fans believe he could win in a 1 on 1 fight. 

Itachi successfully launched a suprise attack on a Nagato that Kabuto had focus on the two Jinchurikis. 

Hell Kabuto actually forgot Itachi was there in the first place(talk about PNJ). 

Itachi showed some impressive skill but all in all without the element of suprise and Power that the Naruto and Bee provided he would never had gotten the openings he took advantage of.

Whats more funny is that if kabuto had been more interested in killing instaef of capture he would have finished Bee and Naruto and been ready for Itachi rather than distracted.


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

icemaster143 said:


> It's pretty much cannon that Itachi couldn't beat CT on his own so I don't see how Itachi fans believe he could win in a 1 on 1 fight.
> 
> Itachi successfully launched a suprise attack on a Nagato that Kabuto had focus on the two Jinchurikis.
> 
> ...



As much as I agree with you that part's wrong. Kabuto _was_ trying to kill Naruto, he was just gonna revive him later with the outer path.


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## Seraphiel (Sep 27, 2011)

icemaster143 said:


> *It's pretty much cannon that Itachi couldn't beat CT on his own so I don't see how Itachi fans believe he could win in a 1 on 1 fight. *


Elaborate? What's stopping him from slashing it in two with Totsuka when he gets pulled in? Or just stabbing into the ball?


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## Ankit (Sep 27, 2011)

It was not fair that Nagato was sealed, though it was necessary otherwise he would have caused a lot of damage. Its very hard to say who can defeat who, they both are top tier. Still, I would say Nagato has been treated unfairly. And I saw one post in which someone said Nagato changed his mind due to Naruto talking and a book....
Dude, that was the result of a long chain of event. His master Jiraiya, his friend yahiko, his fight with Naruto and many more.
Saying he changed his mind due to a book is a good example of Selective Comprehension( coloring the data your mind receives with your opininons,i.e to hear what you want to hear.)


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## jimbob631 (Sep 27, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Nagato _tards_ like to look at the fight and treat it as if Naruto and Bee held Nagato down while Itachi sealed him. Naruto and Bee were there, but their involvement, and more so the assistance they provided, was minimal.



FRS, Bijuudama, and keeping Nagato distracted is minimal...this is why I call you guys delusional



Jυstin said:


> The fact more focused on wasn't that "Itrachi solo'd Nagato", it's that what Itachi did was pretty impressive, considering how Naruto and Bee were struggling.



Sure I would agree Itachi was very impressive, doesn't mean you guys as a whole don't argue Itachi soloed Nagato.  



Jυstin said:


> Nagato is not "crippled". His mobility comes from his disuse of his body. He could improve his body's condition with practice and regular physical exercise. It's not a handicap. Nagato just has a 1/5 in mobility, if mobility were a skill. He's not going to have the mobility of Itachi, who physically trained his ass off every day. It's audacious to expect Nagato to possess a skill he didn't work for.



Your making huge assumptions which are basically fanfiction.  Nagato is crippled, you have no idea if the mobility is because he hasn't been using his body.  People jumped on the idea that Nagato regained use of his legs because he absorbed bijuu chakra but this makes no sense as he could have done this when he was alive.  



Jυstin said:


> Also, crippled or not, that extra bit of muscle wouldn't have protected his arm from Amaterasu. He'd have lost it all the same. Even A with his bulging muscles had to lose his arm.



No but having depleted chakra certainly doesn't help and he would have prevented losing his arm if he used Shinra Tensei right away, Kabuto was listening to Itachi which is why he didn't use it right away.  



Jυstin said:


> This is another fallacious assumption. Kabuto was not "listening" for Bee either while he was busy with Naruto. What was Bee's excuse then? Nagato was "distracted" with Naruto, but he still intercepted Bee and trapped him, because of the Rin'negan's shared vision. That's what they were there for. That was their job, to survey the area and watch Nagato's back. Nagato/Kabuto was not distracted.



Idk what your talking about here, Kabuto was listening to Itachi talk about Shisui, thats what I was talking about.  



Jυstin said:


> The only difference between Bee's rescue attempt and Itachi's was that Itachi first incapacitated the other Rin'negan eyes to stop the shared vision.



Yeah I'm aware, again I don't see what this has to do with anything I said







Jυstin said:


> The fact is, we simply don't know. Neither CT's durability nor the individual projectile strength is quantifiable. It's not a call either side can make. The side that does start making calls _should_ be criticized.



Sure we don't know for sure, it hasn't stopped Itachi fans from arguing two amaterasu shots to the core would have done the trick.  Or my favorite that Itachi could have destroyed it right away but decided this was a prime opportunity to teach Naruto a lesson on ninjutsu.  



Jυstin said:


> Those are Itachi tards. I'm an Itachi fan, and we're one of the most logical, reasonable, and fair debaters out there. We don't say "Itachi stomps" or "Nagato stomps". We recognize the two for the top tier they are, and that while Itachi has the means to win, he very well can lose outside of a plot-based fight.



Total bull shit, go to the battledome and check it out.  Nagato fans think its silly to view Itachi on the same level because of feats but more importantly your talking about the reincarnation of the strongest character in the manga.  



Jυstin said:


> We don't worship Itachi because we think he's a god. We love him because he's stayed most true to what a true shinobi of this manga is, without tons of overpowered attacks. He still attacks with simple techniques and relies on skill and strategy. He lives in the shadows, and his deeds go unrecognized. He does not look for fame. He knows what being Hokage means, and passed that to Naruto. He was a silent man, who spoke in short wise parables. Despite his power, he remained a simple ninja, who carried with him secrets of both his true hidden power (I'm talking MS) and his entire life's work.



Go outside and get some fresh air, worshiping a manga character in the first place is beyond strange.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Sep 27, 2011)

Itachi raped. Like seriously, he did.

Dude didn't get touched, figured out and nullified shared vision almost instantly..something that took Jiraiya and the experienced sage frogs quite some time..figured out the way to overcome CT and last but not least, quickly sealed Nagato.



Sniffers said:


> If Kishimoto really would've wanted to portray Itachi as weaker, he would've had Itachi take some damage or would've actually made him look like he was struggling along with Naruto and B. Contrary to that Itachi seemed very comfortable in that fight and had a strategy for everything.



Exactly.


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## 24 Hours (Sep 27, 2011)

Totsuka Sword 

It had been proven, Lord Itachi indeed more powerful


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2011)

Turrin said:


> 1- It's the fact that they were Kage Class that caused the distraction. Nagato had to use his one hand and asura path to counter B and had to use his other hand, summon, and human path to counter Naruto. Furthermore his attention was clearly fixed on those two due to Kabuto's command to capture them and B's own rescue attempt clearly exposed shared vision allowing Itachi to figure out how to counter it [you don't think he pulled knowledge of shared vision out of his ass do you?]. Obviously all these factors combined made it easier for Itachi to ambush Nagato in that instance, not to mention an ambush alone makes a person's attack far more likely to be successful [as stated by Shikkamaru in Part I].



In short, *their level had absolutely nothing to do with the distraction they caused.*



> 2- I realize the debate is whether or not it was necessary for B and Naruto to help Itachi. Which is my point is that we don't know if Itachi could have done it alone. Now the reason why I lean towards him not being able to do it alone is two fold.
> 
> A. I do not believe Yata Magatama is as strong as Itachi-fans believe it is. I think it's probably roughly around the level of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows since it's a stage 3 Susano'o attack and not a full Susano'o attack, and I doubt an attack of that level is enough to counter a condensed ball of gravity like CT. I mean the CT ball itself has to have a high level of durability or it would be destroyed simply from the large boulders slamming into it at high velocities



Oh so we have to take your argument as granted simply because of your 'beliefs' ? 
Sorry but that is not enough Turrin.
Especially when you consider that your beliefs are a being a bit unfair to Itachi given you put Susanoo's fodder arrows on the same scale of a named attack like Yasaka's magatama named after one of the 3 treasures. That alone should suggest that it should be on the same level with the other treasures, which means it should be incredibly powerful in its own way.

I have no doubt that Ct is very durable, and I agree with your resoning but tanking a boulder and tanking a special attack crashing into it with high velocity is obviously not the same thing.




> B. If Itachi instantly knew how to counter CT and was confident in countering it himself, than I don't see a reason to waste time explaining it to B/Naruto allowing it become more durable. To me this shows Itachi was not confident in defeating CT by himself and thought he had much better odds relying on B and Naruto helping him. Sure maybe he was wrong to not be confident in his own abilities, but I think its more likely that being as intelligent as he is he properly assessed them and knew he was better off relying on B and Naruto.


Or it was simply a plot move to emphasize the importance of team work which was the most important theme of that encounter.
And sure, because Itachi wanted to guarantee their survival. Even if ihe alone had 99% of succeeding, he'd still want to increase their odds to 100%. Thats the most logical thing to do.



> T*he point of all this is that the battle was never Itachi vs Nagato, it was Itachi, B, and Naruto vs Nagato.* We don't know how Itachi vs Nagato would have played out but I suspect it would be a-lot different than the way this battle played out. So I don't see how this battle would suggest Itachi > or = to Nagato as many Itachi-fans assert.



Seriously Turrin ? 

If thats what was really intended, then Kishimoto would make them contribute equally to the battle, not make Naruto and bee look like utter shit and make Itachi look like the hero who saved  the day. 
You know better, you had like millions of scenarios where Itachi got trolled hard. 
Would you really write it this way if you really wanted this to look like 3 v 1 ? 
Itachi did all the work, Bee and Naruto were minor nuiscances for Nagato.

Seriously if you really think that way, then I should say this is one the greatest(if not the greatest) underestimation of Itachi I've witnessed in these forums.
...


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

24 Hours said:


> Link removed
> 
> It had been proven, Lord Itachi indeed more powerful



You chose a really bad page to link to xD. 

Look at the 2nd post. 

08-29-2011, 03:05 AM

"Still, 307 members voted in this poll.

NAGATO got 141
ITACHI got 128
and DRAW got 38"

That was 12 days after chapter 551's release. Aka, people were voting mainly on the feats shown in both that chapter and the comments from kabuto in the chapter 552. (5 days before.)

The current results just go to show that the fanbase for Itachi is zealous enough to mass spam that poll until they've managed to win it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> In short, *their level had absolutely nothing to do with the distraction they caused.*
> 
> ...



But you admit they caused a distraction then. If Naruto and Bee weren't there how exactly does Itachi manage to replicate that distraction.

No one is trying to make Itachi any weaker, it's just Itachi fans seem to really be against the idea that Itachi actually needed Naruto and Bee to distract Kabuto's attention away from himself in order to attack.

(Although considering Itachi just escaped his unbeatable ninjutsu, Kabuto must have worse memory than Naruto to actually forget about Itachi in the space of a few minutes.)

(Edit - sorry I double posted, I thought someone would have posted before I did. )


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## PoinT_BlanK (Sep 27, 2011)

I've said it before..

Naruto's & Bee's contribution were minimal and damn near comical..Naruto has his power/attention split throughout the battlefield..Bee was a non-factor, out of his league.

Itachi blinded Nagato with Kunais. Fucking Kunais. No flashy jutsu or any of the sort, he immediately realized how Nagato's shared vision worked and nullified it with kunais. Any bunshin could've played the role the jinchuuriki played in that instance, it's not like they had Nagato in a headlock while Itachi prepared his kunais or anything like that..The jinchuuriki were dominated by Nagato..Naruto was just one of the many bunshins he has spread throughout the battlefield and Bee was so out of his league..so yeah, even if Naruto & Bee weren't there I'm pretty confident the same would've happened, a bunshin/feint would've sufficed to give Itachi the little time he needed to blind the summons..Naruto & Bee served up as distractions as a bunshin would. Bunshin feint would've had the same effect. You don't need a tremendous amount of prep-time to throw kunais FFS..Itachi blitzed a fully mature 3-tomoe sharingan with a feint before, the bunshins would serve as distraction and would enable him to figure out the shared vision as quickly as he did. Different means, same end.



> the situation could easily be recreated with a Kagebunshen or Karasu Bunshen m being the distraction, since that is what they're mainly for and Itachi uses them well (as opposed to Naruto who uses them en mass, which is different. Itachi uses less clones to accomplish the same results).





> the summons were surveying and keeping an eye out around them. That's their purpose with shared vision. They wouldn't all be focusing on Naruto and Bee. In spite of this, Itachi was still able to find a blind spot, a blind spot, in the Rikudou's shared vision defense.



^''Correct'' to both quotes. They're by Justin btw..in another thread.


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## Rosencrantz (Sep 27, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously if you really think that way, then I should say this is one the greatest(if not the greatest) underestimation of Itachi I've witnessed in these forums.
> ...



No one is underestimating Itachi. Fact still remains that Itachi could not have landed those kunai nearly as easily (if at all) if Nagato and the summons had not been focusing on Naruto/Bee. There is no way to tell if Itachi could have done it himself. Take Naruto/Bee out of the fight and it would have gone compeltely differently. There would be no sneak attacks on Nagato and his summons. CT might have finished the job. I mean if I am taking on Paquiao and Mayweather at the same time and Tyson comes from behind and stabs my legs does that really make Tyson look very impressive at all?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2011)

CA182 said:


> But you admit they caused a distraction then. If Naruto and Bee weren't there how exactly does Itachi manage to replicate that distraction.



Of course. I never said they didn't.

But people are trying hard to undermine Itachi and spouting bullshit like "kage level shinobi did this and that."

Its true that they are kage level, but the way they got owned... it was genin level.
Naruto was caught by the chamelon right after Nagato ambushed them, and he was utterly useless, and Bee simply got cought by the shared vision and got immediately disabled.

None of their strengths or skillset became an issue(only that Bee's V2 helped Nagato which made things worse), up until CT.

Itachi could have created a similar distraction with Kagebunshins.


edit : 



Rosencrantz said:


> No one is underestimating Itachi. Fact still remains that Itachi could not have landed those kunai nearly as easily (if at all) if Nagato and the summons had not been focusing on Naruto/Bee. There is no way to tell if Itachi could have done it himself. Take Naruto/Bee out of the fight and it would have gone compeltely differently. There would be no sneak attacks on Nagato and his summons. CT might have finished the job. I mean if I am taking on Paquiao and Mayweather at the same time and Tyson comes from behind and stabs my legs does that really make Tyson look very impressive at all?




Summons weren't focusing on Bee and Naruto, those were out there to watch the entire field. If you remember, Nagato was able to catch bee thanks to those set of eyes.

Itachi's kunais came from blindspots, thats why they weren't able to see it.


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## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

PoinT_BlanK said:


> I've said it before..
> 
> Naruto's & Bee's contribution were minimal and damn near comical..Naruto has his power/attention split throughout the battlefield..Bee was a non-factor, out of his league.
> 
> Itachi blinded Nagato with Kunais. Fucking Kunais. No flashy jutsu or any of the sort, he immediately realized how Nagato's shared vision worked and nullified it with kunais. Any bunshin could've played the role the jinchuuriki played in that instance, it's not like they had Nagato in a headlock while Itachi prepared his kunais or anything like that..The jinchuuriki were dominated by Nagato..Naruto was just one of the many bunshins he has spread throughout the battlefield and Bee was so out of his league..so yeah, even if Naruto & Bee weren't there I'm pretty confident the same would've happened, a bunshin/feint would've sufficed to give Itachi the little time he needed to blind the summons..Naruto & Bee served up as distractions as a bunshin would. Bunshin feint would've had the same effect. You don't need a tremendous amount of prep-time to throw kunais FFS..Itachi blitzed a fully mature 3-tomoe sharingan with a feint before, the bunshins would serve as distraction and would enable him to figure out the shared vision as quickly as he did. Different means, same end.



You are still missing the point I think.

Let's look at this properly then.

Here's the hypothetical situation.

Itachi vs Kabuto (via Nagato-edo)

Conditions 
Itachi was released from edo however Naruto and Bee have immediately fled onwards after Itachi says he will remain behind to battle Nagato.

Here's where we will diverge then from the manga.



Those last panels of Itachi are now him telling Naruto and Bee to leave.

Kabuto shinra tenseis the amaterasu flames and the battle begins.

Now that there's no Naruto and Bee, when Nagato goes inside the chameleon. Itachi has to find it.

But can the sharingan see the chameleon? The first problem.

Next Nagato's first shinra tensei will be aimed at Itachi. There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal that can fully withstand Shinra tensei. If Itachi activates Susanoo, Itachi is still sent flying along with Susanoo. 



This simple change to the first strike means that Kabuto has absolutely no chance of forgetting about Itachi now, therefore all his eyes will be focused on watching _only_ for Itachi as there are no other people in the vicinity.

I could continue but my point should be clearer now.

*How powerful or useless Naruto and Bee are doesn't matter.*
The fact they are simply present changes how Kabuto (via edo-Nagato) will fight and concentrate on the fight.
Simply having to watch out for three people causes him to have to divert his attention.

You say any clone/feint will suffice, why would it suffice? Kabuto trained under Orochimaru. If there's one thing he will expect it's watching out for feints and clones.
Also there is no clone that Itachi could do who'd be able to survive been hit by either the human path or the hungry ghost path.

Lastly fighting clones of Itachi will not cause Kabuto to forget he's fighting Itachi any time soon.

*Itachi just cannot replicate the concentration lapse from Kabuto by himself. That's a simple fact.*


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> No one is underestimating Itachi. Fact still remains that Itachi could not have landed those kunai nearly as easily (if at all) if Nagato and the summons had not been focusing on Naruto/Bee. There is no way to tell if Itachi could have done it himself. Take Naruto/Bee out of the fight and it would have gone compeltely differently. There would be no sneak attacks on Nagato and his summons. CT might have finished the job. I mean if I am taking on Paquiao and Mayweather at the same time and Tyson comes from behind and stabs my legs does that really make Tyson look very impressive at all?



If it was Itachi vs Nagato from the start, Itachi would seal him instantly with totsuka. He wouldn't need to look at CT starting to grow and save Bee and Narutos ass. This was a fight to show off Prime Nagato.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

At the end of the day...

...Nagato is in Itachi's liquor bottle. That is not arguable. 

/thread.


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## principito (Sep 27, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If thats what was really intended, then Kishimoto would make them contribute equally to the battle, not make Naruto and bee look like utter shit and make Itachi look like the hero who saved  the day.
> You know better, you had like millions of scenarios where Itachi got trolled hard.
> Would you really write it this way if you really wanted this to look like 3 v 1 ?
> Itachi did all the work, Bee and Naruto were minor nuiscances for Nagato.
> ...





PoinT_BlanK said:


> I've said it before..
> 
> Naruto's & Bee's contribution were minimal and damn near comical..Naruto has his power/attention split throughout the battlefield..Bee was a non-factor, out of his league.
> .



I dont like going into details as much as you guys, but to me it was pretty clear that although itachi and Nagato are around the same lvl, Nagato's jutsus are just to powerful.

itachi said that to destroy CT he needed help from Naruto and Bee; had they not been there, most likely Itachi would've lost.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> If it was Itachi vs Nagato from the start, Itachi would seal him instantly with totsuka. He wouldn't need to look at CT starting to grow and save Bee and Narutos ass. This was a fight to show off Prime Nagato.



No he would not get "instantly" sealed.Seeing as the reason for Nagato getting hit by Totsuka's sword is the dust cloud Naruto and Bee helped create by destroying CT.


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## Sniffers (Sep 27, 2011)

People.. 

Remember that a fight is written to serve an end. Why did Itachi only separate Nagato from Naruto and B? Why did Susanoo do


this

in stead of 


this? 

It's because Nagato needed to look good and it wasn't time to get one-shot beaten just yet. Fights always go like this in stories. Non-lethal attacks hit, but blades almost always get parried. Similar arguments can be made for other characters. I mean, why didn't Naruto just use KB along with a smoke screen ? la the Pain fight to escape A. Why do it the hard way? Because plot required Naruto to be stopped. He was dumbed down for plot. Plot determines the fight. Don't pretend it doesn't... so you can waste your time arguing battledome logic but we all know that it doesn't really have a place in this manga.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 27, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> No he would not get "instantly" sealed.Seeing as the reason for Nagato getting hit by Totsuka's sword is the dust cloud Naruto and Bee helped create by destroying CT.



Bee and Naruto was in Itachis way of sealing Nagato from the start. Instead he had to save them. Kishi wanted to show off Prime Nagato, It would be lame if he got oneshotted in one panel. So he let Nagato live for some panels before Itachi seals him


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## Rosencrantz (Sep 27, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Summons weren't focusing on Bee and Naruto, those were out there to watch the entire field. If you remember, Nagato was able to catch bee thanks to those set of eyes.
> 
> Itachi's kunais came from blindspots, thats why they weren't able to see it.



They all seemed to be looking at Naruto and Bee. I do not seem them looking around scanning any kind of battlefield. They are all looking in Naruto/Bee's direction. Bee jumping down from the skies with a giant sword on his back and wielding a raiton blade is a pretty huge target. Unlike a few kunai. Oh and by the time Itachi attacked the eyes were focusing on both targets unlike when Bee attacked they were focusing on 1.

Blindspots are more apparenty when focus is on a different target. Fact is, had it been 1 on 1, things would have been different hands down.



Vincent2k said:


> If it was Itachi vs Nagato from the start, Itachi would seal him instantly with totsuka. He wouldn't need to look at CT starting to grow and save Bee and Narutos ass. This was a fight to show off Prime Nagato.



Baseless speculation is just that. Baseless speculation.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Bee and Naruto was in Itachis way of sealing Nagato from the start. Instead he had to save them. Kishi wanted to show off Prime Nagato, It would be lame if he got oneshotted in one panel. So he let Nagato live for some panels before Itachi seals him



And if Naruto and Bee didn't keep Nagato busy, he would have focused all his attention on Itachi, so..


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## Turrin (Sep 27, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In short, *their level had absolutely nothing to do with the distraction they caused.*
> ...


Their level had everything to do with it. If Naruto was just a typical Jonin like Shizune Nagato could have instantly ripped his soul out before Itachi even attacked and he wouldn't have been a distraction at all. If B was just a typical Jonin Nagato could have just punched him away rather than having to use Asura Path's powers to bind him and finish him with a his lazer cannon. 

Beyond that it really doesn't matter if you don't think their levels had any importance, fact of the matter is Itachi had the advantage of ambushing a distracted enemy, which is a huge advantage that Itachi would not have in a straight forward 1v1 duel.



> Oh so we have to take your argument as granted simply because of your 'beliefs' ?


Don't put words in my mouth, I never said you had to take my arguments as granted, I just explained why I believed a certain outcome is unlikely imo.



> Especially when you consider that your beliefs are a being a bit unfair to Itachi given you put Susanoo's fodder arrows on the same scale of a named attack like Yasaka's magatama named after one of the 3 treasures. That alone should suggest that it should be on the same level with the other treasures, which means it should be incredibly powerful in its own way.


Orochimaru's Ksunagi Sword is also one of the 3 treasures and it is not nearly as powerful as Yata Mirror. On top of that It doesn't make much sense for Yata Magatama to be as powerful an offensive weapon as the Totsuka Sword, because if Yata Magatama was as strong as Totsuka Sword than it would be way better than Totsuka Sword since it can be used at all ranges, this would effectively mean that a Stage 3 Susano'o attack is > a Stage 4 Susano'o attack, which doesn't make much sense to me.

Now with that said becuase Yata Magatama was named I expect it to be better than Sasuke's Susano'o arrows, but I don't expect it to be far beyond the level of Susano'o arrows. 



> I have no doubt that Ct is very durable, and I agree with your resoning but tanking a boulder and tanking a special attack crashing into it with high velocity is obviously not the same thing.


Yes it's not the same thing, but basically what this boils down to is that Itachi-fans assume that the totally featless Yata Magatama can bust CT which even you admit is very durable. Personally I have am not one to make that kind of assumption. 



> Or it was simply a plot move to emphasize the importance of team work which was the most important theme of that encounter.


So it was a plot to emphasize the importance of team work, yet the author wanted readers to draw from it that Itachi could have done it alone, thus making teamwork completely irrelevant? That doesn't make much sense to me. 



> And sure, because Itachi wanted to guarantee their survival. Even if ihe alone had 99% of succeeding, he'd still want to increase their odds to 100%. Thats the most logical thing to do.


I get the argument about increasing odds, I've heard it before. I just don't think Itachi would waste time giving the enemy the chance to strength his Jutsu or use other Jutsu to only increase his chances by 1% as your suggesting here. 



> If thats what was really intended, then Kishimoto would make them contribute equally to the battle, not make Naruto and bee look like utter shit and make Itachi look like the hero who saved the day.
> You know better, you had like millions of scenarios where Itachi got trolled hard.
> Would you really write it this way if you really wanted this to look like 3 v 1 ?
> Itachi did all the work, Bee and Naruto were minor nuiscances for Nagato.


Kishi had Naruto and B be the ones who were distracting him and he had Naruto and B contribute their strongest technique to this fight, so I don't see how that was minimal contribution. 

Now with that said Kishi obviously wanted Itachi to look like the Team Leader, but that speaks towards Itachi's intelligence and wisdom more than anything else. 



> Seriously if you really think that way, then I should say this is one the greatest(if not the greatest) underestimation of Itachi I've witnessed in these forums.


If I think it was a 3v1 battle, it's a great underestimation of Itachi  

That makes so little sense when the battle was 3v1, you can argue how much B and Naruto were necessary or how much they contributed, but it was still a 3v1 battle and to say other wise i'd say is the biggest fan wanking of Itachi i've ever seen on these forums since it totally ignores reality lol.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

Like Sniffers said...

.. Kishimoto was going to have Itachi defeat Nagato regardless. Kishimoto had to show some respect to Nagato. I mean, for crying out loud, he took the dude out in half a chapter; how bad did you need it to be? He figured out CT and shared vision in less time than it took Jiraiya and the Toads to figure out Shared vision. 

The intention was for Itachi to seal Nagato, and move on to Kabuto. 

Clearly Kishimoto has placed Itachi above Nagato, even if only in plot importance. Otherwise, Nagato would have been the one moving on, or they would have moved on together.


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## icemaster143 (Sep 27, 2011)

Seraphiel said:


> Elaborate? What's stopping him from slashing it in two with Totsuka when he gets pulled in? Or just stabbing into the ball?





1. The ball is too large and thick for Totsuka to cut or stab through. We know this due to the fact that the sword lacks the amount of power displayed by sixtailed Naruto that failed to destroy CT. 

2. Rocks, tree and other debree being pulled in would make it impossible for something as large as Susanno to do anything without taking a pounding in all directions. The same thing happened to sixtails as it was being pulled in and its several times smaller than Susanno.

3. 8 tailed Kyuubi couldn't break free or destroy the ball dispite being in the ball itself showing that the ball was dense enough to counter the strength of a biju. The paltry strength of Susanno would be nothing compared to that. 

4. It took the combined power of three of the strongest ninja in the manga to beat the Jutsu before it was fully formed. Itachi beeing one of them.

5. Itachi knew he needed more power than his own jutsu thanks to the sharingan. People seem to forget that Sharingan give you the strength and weaknesses of all Jutsu. It breaks down a jutsu for the user. He didn't ask for help to prove a point but rather asked for help because he had no choice.

Lets face it Itachi simply isn't up to the level of Nagato but with Naruto and Bee help he was able to get the opening he needed to win. On his own He would never had stood a chance if Nagato was actually focused on defeating him.


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## PoinT_BlanK (Sep 27, 2011)

CA182 said:


> Now that there's no Naruto and Bee, when Nagato goes inside the chameleon. Itachi has to find it
> 
> But can the sharingan see the chameleon? The first problem.



That would prove to be no problem as Nagato's position would be exposed with the shinra tensei charge.



CA182 said:


> Next Nagato's first shinra tensei will be aimed at Itachi.



If you go back to the panels prior to the shinra tensei you'll see that Itachi was positioned between/middle of Naruto & Bee..''Aiming it at Itachi'' won't make no differece..because when he aimed for the jin/he also aimed to/for Itachi due to his positioning..




CA182 said:


> There is nothing in Itachi's arsenal that can fully withstand Shinra tensei.



Where do you take this from? That's a bias assumption if I've ever seen one. You convenienlty assume nothing in Itachi's arsenal would fully withstand shinra..yet the manga and description of Yata clearly state it's capable of blocking/deflecting ANY attack..that has more value than an assumption you just made to suit your argument..Nonetheless, I'm just gonna take it as you meant ''Susano wouldn't be fully formed at that time therefore Yata wouldn't be in play to block shinra..''



CA182 said:


> If Itachi activates Susanoo, Itachi is still sent flying along with Susanoo.



a partially formed susano, was capable of blocking a lightning..a ground leveling lightning..besides susano has grip and has been shown to be able to hold on to/grab things..nonetheless, even if Itachi was blown away, which I believe he did anyway( he must've been pushed back by shinra due to his positioning) nothing would change..see Bee for instance he was blown away but nothing happened to him..I doubt anything would have happened to Itachi..let alone if he had a partially formed susano activated..



CA182 said:


> all his eyes will be focused on watching _only_ for Itachi as there are no other people in the vicinity.



The whole point of Nagato having several eyes is so he can ''focus'' on several things at the same time..''the summons were surveying and keeping an eye out around them. That's their purpose with shared vision. They wouldn't all be focusing on Naruto and Bee. In spite of this, Itachi was still able to find a blind spot, a blind spot, in the Rikudou's shared vision defense.'' 




CA182 said:


> The fact they are simply present changes how Kabuto (via edo-Nagato) will fight and concentrate on the fight.
> Simply having to watch out for three people causes him to have to divert his attention.



This is exactly why bunshins would have the same ''distraction'' effect.




CA182 said:


> You say any clone/feint will suffice, why would it suffice? Kabuto trained under Orochimaru. If there's one thing he will expect it's watching out for feints and clones.



So did Sasuke(train under Oro) and guess what?..Itachi managed a bunshin feint against him..in the middle of a shuriken exchange:

Link removed
Link removed
''!! Damn he still managed to make a bunshin during all that?''

and no it's not genjutsu as the shurikens are clearly visible on the ground after that and the genjutsu exchange only (re)commences on this page when the panel focuses on Itachi's eye:

Link removed

here's more proof that it wasn't a genjutsu, the shurikens on the ground after Tsukuyomi was broken by Sasuke:

Link removed

Therefore, Itachi, in the middle of a shurinken exchange..made a bunshin, successfully swapped positions with it all this whilst being under the watchful eye of a mature three tomoe sharingan..



CA182 said:


> Also there is no clone that Itachi could do who'd be able to survive been hit by either the human path or the hungry ghost path.



This is of no importanc. as he only needs the clones for that split second to enable him to throw the kunais. Whether the bunshins survive or not is irrelevant, hence why I mentioned the fact that Nagato dominated the jinchuuriki..yet Itachi still blinded him..If he dominated the bunshin the same would happen..



CA182 said:


> Also fighting clones of Itachi will not be causing Kabuto to forget he's fighting Itachi during battle any time soon.



God..if he forgets or not it doesn't matter..Itachi just needs the bunshin feint to blind/nullify the shared vision. They would be mere distractions as Bee & Naruto were..knowing that is fighting Itachi won't help him if he had been duped by a bunshin feint..



CA182 said:


> *Itachi just cannot replicate the concentration lapse from Kabuto by himself. That's a simple fact.*



Want to look at facts? A distraction served as the mean Itachi used to nullify shared vision, a distraction can be made with a bunshin feint as this manga has shown several times, Itachi blitzed mature sharingans at least twice (sasuke, Kakashi) and found a blind spot on rinnegan's shared field of vision..Nagato ended up in Itachi's bottle.


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## icemaster143 (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> Like Sniffers said...
> 
> .. Kishimoto was going to have Itachi defeat Nagato regardless. Kishimoto had to show some respect to Nagato. I mean, for crying out loud, he took the dude out in half a chapter; how bad did you need it to be? He figured out CT and shared vision in less time than it took Jiraiya and the Toads to figure out Shared vision.
> 
> ...



Itachi had the advantage of watching some others fighting rather than fighting himself and finding out from his mistakes.

Jiraiya and the toads figured out shared vision in one move. 

Itachi was chosen to move on because he still had an unresolved plot point not because he was stronger. Hell the main reason he is moving on as you put it is so Kishi could give him the hero's death like Jiraiya and Nagato where his sacrifice does some good instead of creating more problems like Sasuke or failing to warn people about Madara or failing to keep Orochimaru from Sasuke or helping Akatsuki from gaining the power of the Bijus. 

Itachi has alot to make up for so kishi will give him the "Good" guy sacrifice.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 27, 2011)

Rosencrantz said:


> They all seemed to be looking at Naruto and Bee. I do not seem them looking around scanning any kind of battlefield. They are all looking in Naruto/Bee's direction. Bee jumping down from the skies with a giant sword on his back and wielding a raiton blade is a pretty huge target. Unlike a few kunai. Oh and by the time Itachi attacked the eyes were focusing on both targets unlike when Bee attacked they were focusing on 1.
> 
> Blindspots are more apparenty when focus is on a different target. Fact is, had it been 1 on 1, things would have been different hands down.



Speculation dawg. The eyes certainly weren't shown scanning the field, but thats why they were there.
Kabuto clearly explained it, and said that Itachi's kunai could reach blind spots, thats why they weren'noticed.
Or he'd just say I guess I was a retard for not using the 2 extra pair of eyes for looking around.

Come on, a bit common sense brah.

@ turrin. I'll reply to you later, tomorrow probably. gotta watch breaking bads latest ep and then go to bed.


But I am putting this for everyone out there :

In the end, Nagato apologized to Itachi. Don't you guys think it at least means something. Even Nagato himself was aware that Itachi was the one to clean the mess he created. It wasn't Naruto or Bee.
Itachi was the big bro, who saved the kids and defeated the villain.

Nagato apologizes to him, Kabuto complains about him. The contribution of Naruto and Bee is so minimal that they aren't even mentioned.
Sorta like how Sasuke and Naruto contributed to Zabuza's defeat, even less tbh.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

@icemaster...

Itachi fought against three Kage level shinobi, and was the only shinobi in the entire battle to not even get scratched. 

Not even a hang nail. 

The crazy thing is you guys, after all of Itachi's hype, still believes he's just another powerful shinobi. Only anti-tardism could blind anyone to the blindingly obvious.

You don't have Itachi take down Nagato twice if he's weaker. It just doesn't happen like that in this story. Hell, people are still making excuses for Orochimaru being defeated so easily, as if Kishimoto couldn't have made the fight longer if he didn't want to.

You simply do not easily defeat an opponent in this manga if you are weaker. The ish does not happen. Battledome logic is simply that. You can re-write a battle anyway you want in your mind, and have the shinobi YOU think is more powerful come out on top...

...but if that is not what the author wished to portray, then you have to ask yourself IS that character really  more powerful?

You can't just say "YES!", because you THINK so, or prefer to believe that.

Just sayin', guys.

At this point, I don't post the tl;dr's anymore, because I truly don't take these debates seriously, anymore. 

Itachi managed to perform below my expectations, believe it or not. I actually expected more, but I KNOW he far exceeded many other people's expectations. I could dig up hundreds of posts to prove it if I were so inclined.

However, some of those same people are in here trying to tell us we're tards, even though they were wrong about Itachi by a country mile.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> @icemaster...
> 
> Itachi fought against three Kage level shinobi, and was the only shinobi in the entire battle to not even get scratched.
> 
> Not even a hang nail.



Once again ignoring that neither Naruto, Bee or Nagato were trying that hard against Itachi 

Naruto and Bee never pulled the big guns against Itachi (rasengans, Hirashin like speed, Biju-damas, number 8s etc etc etc)Nagato pulled CT after completely ignoring Itachi for a good while and then Itachi had help dealing with it.So, what exactly is that impressive about Itachi not being hurt?(as far as we know.He was missing for awhile after ST..)


Itachi was the only one, *noone* used serious power against (excluding CT against which he had Naru and Bee's help) and that's why he didn't even get a scratch..




> You don't have Itachi take down Nagato twice if he's weaker. It just doesn't happen like that in this story.



LOL, what?Characters like Naruto pull victories over characters that are obviously stronger than him, thanks to certain circumstances all the time.


----------



## icemaster143 (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> @icemaster...
> 
> Itachi fought against three Kage level shinobi, and was the only shinobi in the entire battle to not even get scratched.
> 
> ...



Your making no sense. 

You don't beat a opponent if you are weaker? Then what happened with Kin v. Ino-shika-cho?

What happened with Naruto v. part 1 Gaara. 

Old Sarutobi v. Orochimaru and his Summons.  

Kakashi v. Zabuza round one before Naruto stepped in. 

I know you Uchiha fans like to ignore the manga when your peopel aren't there but please catch up to the rest of us. 


Also lol at Itachi fighting all three. 

Itachi managed to avoid injury by hiding out of sight while Nagato faught two other people. He then made his move while Nagato was distracted. This doesn't strike me as the move of someone with confidence of victory in a direct confrontation. 

In all his other victories Itachi never had to resort to such desperate tactics yet I'm to believe he can beat Nagato when he feared directly confronting him. Riiiiiiiiiiight.


Face it Itachi Lacks the power to confront Nagato directly. He is being given one last ho-rah before his second death so we can look at him as a hero rather than a guy who did nothing but make a bad situation worse.


----------



## CA182 (Sep 27, 2011)

@Point Blank
Honestly I had am extremely long post to reply back to you however I've decided there's no point. 

I have better things to do then getting someone to understand that clones simply make a person _more_ wary of attack. 
A clone feint isn't going to make Kabuto as unprepared for Itachi's attacks as he was in the manga.
That's simply the nature of 1 vs 1 battling, it become impossible to forget who you're fighting.
However 3 vs 1 and as shown in the manga it's very possible to forget as shown by Kabuto.

Note - Whether Kabuto being prepared means he can react though, is for other people to argue.

The only thing I'll post here once again (apologies justin) is why Shinra tensei has the ability to at least pre-emtively repel both Susanoo and Totsuka.



PoinT_BlanK said:


> Where do you take this from? That's a bias assumption if I've ever seen one. You convenienlty assume nothing in Itachi's arsenal would fully withstand shinra..yet the manga and description of Yata clearly state it's capable of blocking/deflecting ANY attack..that has more value than an assumption you just made to suit your argument..Nonetheless, I'm just gonna take it as you meant ''Susano wouldn't be fully formed at that time therefore Yata wouldn't be in play to block shinra..''



I've stated my stance on susanoo vs shinra tensei in an earlier post with an explanation but I'll re-explain it.

Susanoo has never shown the ability to leave it's user's vicinity, if it's user is sent flying by an attack then Susanoo will follow them. 
Example Chibaku tensei.

Chibaku tensei was crucial to showing this because of one thing. Itachi's body is not protected against gravity by Susanoo, therefore a gravitational push (aka. Shinra tensei.) will push Itachi and Susanoo will go with him.

It's actually why technically shinra tensei could pre-emtively repel Totsuka, if shinra tensei repels Itachi's real body away, Susanoo and therefore the sword will be repelled.

Also Yata's mirror isn't stated to block every attack, it's stated to block every elemental jutsu by turning it's chakra nature into whatever the incoming attack is weak too.
The problem is that requires shinra tensei to be an elemental attack...

Ok if you want to read my full thoughts about this go find my earlier post about this. Otherwise I'm gonna wait for spoilers for the next chapter.


----------



## Ghost of Madara (Sep 27, 2011)

CA182 said:


> Susanoo has never shown the ability to leave it's user's vicinity, if it's user is sent flying by an attack then Susanoo will follow them.
> Example Chibaku tensei.



Incorrect:


*Spoiler*: __ 



http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+465+-+Assault+on+the+Summit&page=5&next=true








> Chibaku tensei was crucial to showing this because of one thing. Itachi's body is not protected against gravity by Susanoo, therefore a gravitational push (aka. Shinra tensei.) will push Itachi and Susanoo will go with him.
> 
> It's actually why technically shinra tensei could pre-emtively repel Totsuka, if shinra tensei repels Itachi's real body away, Susanoo and therefore the sword will be repelled.
> 
> ...



Incorrect.  It's stated to block every attack:



			
				Databook 3 said:
			
		

> There's a reason why Susanoo can boast *perfect flawlessness* in its offense and *defense*: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which *all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance* before the god's efficacy.




*Spoiler*: __ 



http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=Naruto&chapter=Chapter+393+-+My+Eyes&prev=%3C%3C-+Prev&page=11


----------



## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

I hear you guys, but this is what every fandom does when their fav. is defeated. 

I'm not going to concede that my favorite character is weaker when I know he took your guy down twice. WHy would I do that? You sure as hell wouldn't. 

Like I said in another thread, if I wanted to, I could pick apart Itachi vs Every Character he faced. However, unless you think Kishimoto wanted us to believe that Itachi is equal or inferior to everyone he faced, but LUCKILY finished them in a few panels, then there ain't but a few other explanations. 

Itachi takes down Nagato twice, and is the only shinobi who went unscathed the entire battle?

Yeah, I'm going to stick with the home team on this one. At the end of the day, if the tables were reversed, you'd hold this fight up as evidence that Nagato > Itachi.

....and I'm out.


----------



## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> I'm not going to concede that my favorite character is weaker when I know he took your guy down twice. WHy would I do that? You sure as hell wouldn't.



With proper context, I would. If one character made no attempt to try and stop the other while that other character only took him down while the other was distracted then I'm not calling them stronger.

Hell this kind of thing is Shikamaru's trump card and I never saw anyone run around saying that Shikamaru was stronger than Temari, Tayuya, Hidan or Kakuzu when he fought them.


----------



## PoinT_BlanK (Sep 27, 2011)

CA182

Whether he forgets about itachi is irrelevant check the bunshin feint with sasuke that I posted already..the bunshin keeps the foe busy whilst the real itachi pops up and throws the kunais..he doesn't need kabuto to forget about him to throw kunais ffs.

Ghost of Madara proved you wrong for me..you really need some rereading to do..go do it and come back better prepared

Lol at the suggestion that yata only blocks elemental attacks when it clearly blocked sasuke's physical attacks..or are those elemental in your world?


----------



## Milliardo (Sep 27, 2011)

none of them were going all out against itachi and he needed helped to defeat nagato so i don't see how itachi would be over him..


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> Look, I have no horse in this race as I don't care for either character, but I have never seen one Minato fan blow anything Minato's done out of proportion. Likewise, I have _seen_ Itachi fans entertain the notion that he'd be a good match for Rikudou. Hell, some go as far as to say Rikudou is no match for him.
> 
> Itachi fans are the most rabid, hyperbolic and crazy fanbase there is. They're also the most insecure. So insecure in fact that if you level even the most minute of criticisms to Itachi, they go apeshit trying to defend their little Mary Sue. There's even a topic recently posted where the guy had to openly apologize IN THE TITLE just for having the nerve to claim that Itachi peaked too early.
> 
> ...



Classic case of seeing what you want to see.

That's all I'm going to say to you, because it's clear your only objective in this thread is to complain about the Itachi fandom.


----------



## Divinstrosity (Sep 27, 2011)

Colt said:


> none of them were going all out against itachi and he needed helped to defeat nagato so i don't see how itachi would be over him..



Yeah, 'cause Itachi was giving Naruto and Bee the best that he had. 

Nagato used his strongest summon, and CT. Itachi used Amaterasu and Susanoo.

Itachi conquered.

...and that helped Naruto and Bee provided is laughable. Let you all tell it, Itachi was getting stomped by Nagato, and they had to pull together and eek out a victory.

Itachi figured Nagato out on his own, and lullabied him on his own. Those distractions that they provided doesn't change the fact that Itachi's jutsu's were good enough to take Nagato down. 

I can't say it enough: There is a reason Itachi went unscathed the entire battle, and was the one to take Nagato down twice, when no one else could land a blow.

There is a reason.

Deep down, you know the reason.


----------



## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Classic case of seeing what you want to see.
> 
> That's all I'm going to say to you, because it's clear your only objective in this thread is to complain about the Itachi fandom.



I call it like it is, chief. 

That's all you're going to say because that's all you have to say. I haven't made any claims in this thread that aren't true. Have a problem with what I've said, take it up with the Itachi fanbase.


----------



## Rama (Sep 27, 2011)

Isnt Itachi Sussano's Sword Spiritual.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> Yeah, 'cause Itachi was giving Naruto and Bee the best that he had.
> 
> Nagato used his strongest summon, and CT. Itachi used Amaterasu and Susanoo.
> 
> Itachi conquered.



Nagato used his strongest summon against Itachi?When?And Itachi had help against CT.Nobody was helping Nagato on the other hand..





> Itachi figured Nagato out on his own, and lullabied him on his own. Those distractions that they provided doesn't change the fact that Itachi's jutsu's were good enough to take Nagato down.



Yeah, they were.I have no doubt that Shikamaru, taking advantage of distractions like that and together with some sealing fodders, can take Nagato down as well.Doesn't change the fact that Nagato>Shikamaru and those fodders.



> I can't say it enough: There is a reason Itachi went unscathed the entire battle, and was the one to take Nagato down twice, when no one else could land a blow.
> 
> There is a reason.
> 
> *Deep down, you know the reason.*



*Yes* and i already explained to you the reason.More than once.Lets try once more.

-Naruto and Bee got hurt and were about to get killed because Nagato used some of his best moves against them.And also because Naruto and Bee were dumbed down.Rushing ahead like idiots forgetting all about tactics and shit (and what jutsu Nagato is capable of using )..

-Nagato got hurt because Itachi took advantage of distractions and certain circumstances with his best moves.

-Itachi didn't get hurt because *when finally* one of his opponents used a trump card against him, Naruto and Bee were there to help out.Other than that, Itachi never had to face an opponent going all out against him or the odds Nagato was stuck against.

Get it?Got it?Good.


----------



## The Prodigy (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> Yeah, 'cause Itachi was giving Naruto and Bee the best that he had.
> 
> Nagato used his strongest summon, and CT. Itachi used Amaterasu and Susanoo.
> 
> ...



^ C'mon guys, is there really any reason to keep posting after this epicness has been stated? Divinstrosity's post = WIN!


----------



## Rama (Sep 27, 2011)

Guys if the sword is spiritual it shouldnt be affected by shinra tensei right?


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## Talis (Sep 27, 2011)

Well the fight was pretty cool if you ask me, especially when Nagato turned young again and went berzerk. Itachi was just badass . But to bad the fight was to short but it was epic anyways from both side. The only suckers from that fight were Naruto & Bee


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## God (Sep 27, 2011)

Indeed, terrible fight. We didn't see shit from either side.

Nagato was far more impressive though.


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## Kenpachi_Uchiha (Sep 27, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Bee and Naruto was in Itachis way of sealing Nagato from the start. Instead he had to save them. Kishi wanted to show off Prime Nagato, It would be lame if he got oneshotted in one panel. So he let Nagato live for some panels before Itachi seals him



This!!! Only this. Kishi wanted to do Justice to both Nagato and Itachi before he had Itachi move to Kabuto. How would it look if Itachi crushed Nagato is one panel? The Nagato fandom would explode,


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 27, 2011)

Vice said:


> I call it like it is, chief.



You wish.  



Vice said:


> That's all you're going to say because that's all you have to say. *I haven't made any claims in this thread that aren't true*. Have a problem with what I've said, take it up with the Itachi fanbase.



You've made plenty. Name me one Itachi fan who said Rikudou wouldn't be a match for Itachi. I'm waiting.

Also, the fact that you choose to ignore other fandoms speaks volumes about your obvious bias. So you're merely going to ignore the fact that a Minato fan said three Minatos could take down the Sage of the Six Paths; merely going to ignore the fact that a Minato fan said the Yondaime soloed both A and Bee; merely going to ignore the fact that "handicapped" Minato (who doesn't even exist) "roflstomped" and "blitzpwned" Madara?

You're in no position to complain about Itachi's fans. You insult and detract at every turn, and don't even make an attempt to debate logically. If it's Itachi, it's bashing time. In your world.


----------



## Scorpion (Sep 27, 2011)

Fight was way too fast. The KinGin Kyodai got like 3-4 chapters while the most anticipated fight in the manga gets only 1. That's just stupid. 

Though the whole "Totsuka stab" thing shouldn't really piss any Nagato fan off if it didn't piss me off (me being the biggest Nagato fan on this forum). We all saw it a mile away. Itachi was the only one of the three that could actually seal an Edo, and Kabuto even gave a reason why he succeeded in doing so. 

Only thing I wish for is that Kishi gave the battle another half chapter or so before sealing Nagato off. I mean he didn't show the power of Outer Path, nor the varies combo attacks with Deva Path.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 27, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> @icemaster...
> 
> Itachi fought against three Kage level shinobi, and was the only shinobi in the entire battle to not even get scratched.
> 
> ...



Sakura and Chiyo beat Sasori but nobody is arguing Sakura is as strong as Sasori.  Come on use a little better logic than that.  No one is saying Itachi isn't strong, he's clearly above the sannin, above any kage outside of the hokages, and above just about every other character.  Your being delusional though when you say things like Itachi took Nagato down twice when its clear Itachi took him down because Kabuto was listening to Itachi's story about Shisui and then again because Nagato was busy with the Jins.  Then you say he took care of Nagato and showed he's superior because he sealed him in a panel, ignoring the help Naruto and Bee provided.  

Regardless of the outcome you guys would have argued that Itachi>Nagato, this post alone shows just how rabid a fanbase you guys are.  I mean for crying out loud some of you made a religion about a manga character, that imo is truly sad.


----------



## Vice (Sep 27, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> You've made plenty. Name me one Itachi fan who said Rikudou wouldn't be a match for Itachi. I'm waiting.



You... have one in your sig...

And I'm not going to go through each and every post in the forum just to hand-pick a couple of quotes, but I know for sure there are statements  and , so... have fun.



> Also, the fact that you choose to ignore other fandoms speaks volumes about your obvious bias.



I've already said I don't care about either character, but the fact remains that I've ran into more Itachi wank than Minato wank. And I've _never_ seen Minato wanked to the levels of Rikudou. 



> So you're merely going to ignore the fact that a Minato fan said three Minatos could take down the Sage of the Six Paths



Three on one is a little more fair, ask Nagato. 

Seriously, I've never seen this. Please provide a quotation?



> merely going to ignore the fact that a Minato fan said the Yondaime soloed both A and Bee



Never seen this either, but if it's true, it's equally as stupid and I've never claimed it to not be.



> merely going to ignore the fact that "handicapped" Minato (who doesn't even exist) "roflstomped" and "blitzpwned" Madara?



Minato did very well here despite everything he had to deal with on that night. I honestly don't know what you want me to say here.



> You're in no position to complain about Itachi's fans. You insult and detract at every turn, and don't even make an attempt to debate logically. If it's Itachi, it's bashing time. In your world.



No. I freely admit that Itachi is strong. I freely admit that Itachi is one of a few top tier characters. I freely admit that Itachi can defeat a lot of characters one-on-one. I freely admit that Susanoo is strong and Tsukuyomi is dangerous. But I don't adhere to Itachi wank, I don't tolerate Itachi wank and I have no patience for Itachi wank. Every time I turn around in these forums all I see is "Itachi solos", "Tsukuyomi GG", Susanoo is invincible", "Lord Itachi", "Itachi is our god", "cock slash @ 300 km/hr" and all kinds of Itachi wank bullshit and _I'm_ the one who's biased and _I'm_ the one with the agenda. Okay.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Sep 27, 2011)

Nagato >> Itachi. Come at me bro.

I can't believe people are saying Itachi is stronger than Nagato when he  beat Nagato under these circumstances:

A. Nagato was completely under Kabuto's control.
B. Nagato was handicapped.
C. Itachi had assistance from TWO JINCHUURIKIS.
D. And it was a chapter fight where both fighters used only like three techniques if not less.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 28, 2011)

Vice said:


> You... have one in your sig...



I'll concede that one, I suppose, even though I think it can be interpreted as a joke.



Vice said:


> And I'm not going to go through each and every post in the forum just to hand-pick a couple of quotes, but I know for sure there are statements  and , so... have fun.



It would help if you linked me to the specific posts. Leaving me two gargantuan threads to go through doesn't much help your purpose here.



Vice said:


> I've already said I don't care about either character, but the fact remains that I've ran into more Itachi wank than Minato wank. *And I've never seen Minato wanked to the levels of Rikudou*.



It is getting close, and not in a good way. 



Vice said:


> Three on one is a little more fair, ask Nagato.
> 
> Seriously, I've never seen this. Please provide a quotation?



It happened awhile ago.

I can, however, tell you the member who made the claim: Perseverance.



Vice said:


> Never seen this either, but if it's true, it's equally as stupid and I've never claimed it to not be.



It _is_ true, which is the problem.

I wouldn't be fabricating these things if they didn't actually occur.



Vice said:


> Minato did very well here despite everything he had to deal with on that night. I honestly don't know what you want me to say here.



He did, but it wasn't a "stomp."

He had as much trouble in the fight as Madara.



Vice said:


> No. I freely admit that Itachi is strong. I freely admit that Itachi is one of a few top tier characters. I freely admit that Itachi can defeat a lot of characters one-on-one. I freely admit that Susanoo is strong and Tsukuyomi is dangerous. But I don't adhere to Itachi wank, I don't tolerate Itachi wank and I have no patience for Itachi wank. Every time I turn around in these forums all I see is "Itachi solos", "Tsukuyomi GG", Susanoo is invincible", "Lord Itachi", "Itachi is our god", "cock slash @ 300 km/hr" and all kinds of Itachi wank bullshit and _I'm_ the one who's biased and _I'm_ the one with the agenda. Okay.



You have to be able to tell the difference when someone is joking and when they are serious. All those things you posted about "Lord Itachi" are facetious remarks.

I seriously doubt anyone actually believes that.


----------



## HawkMan (Sep 28, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> I seriously doubt anyone actually believes that.


Itachi fans are the most deluded on this forum, and numerous. It's sickening.

The fight wasn't Itachi vs Nagato; it was Nagato vs Itachi, Naruto, and B.  If only to distract Nagato, B and Naruto helped Itachi to dismantle Nagato's defenses and defeat Chikabaku Tensei. 

Too many focus on the end and assume it would play out the same if Nagato didn't have 3 opponents.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 28, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Itachi fans are the most deluded on this forum, and numerous. It's sickening.



Every fandom appears that way.

It's all a matter of perspective, mostly having to do with dislike of a certain character. Typically, if you hate the character, you hate the fans as well.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 28, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Every fandom appears that way.
> 
> It's all a matter of perspective, mostly having to do with dislike of a certain character. Typically, if you hate the character, you hate the fans as well.



Some of you have started up an Itachi religion...

There's clearly a difference.


----------



## BrokenBonds (Sep 28, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Every fandom appears that way.
> 
> It's all a matter of perspective, mostly having to do with dislike of a certain character. Typically, if you hate the character, you hate the fans as well.


What the person above me said... they title Itachi "God" on this forum for heavens sakes. You don't need to hate Itachi to hate his fanbase.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 28, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Some of you have started up an Itachi religion...
> 
> There's clearly a difference.



I'm not part of that, though.

Besides, I don't think the "Church of Itachi" is supposed to be taken seriously. It's in the "joke fanclubs" section, which I think acts as an indication people go there to let loose.



HawkMan said:


> The fight wasn't Itachi vs Nagato; it was Nagato vs Itachi, Naruto, and B. If only to distract Nagato, B and Naruto helped Itachi to dismantle Nagato's defenses and defeat Chikabaku Tensei.
> 
> Too many focus on the end and assume it would play out the same if Nagato didn't have 3 opponents.



Of course the outcome wouldn't be the same. I think some are just debating the idea Itachi would lose easily to a "semi-prime" (restored but immobile) Nagato.



BrokenBonds said:


> What the person above me said... the title Itachi "God" on this forum for heavens sakes. You don't need to hate Itachi to hate his fanbase.



Again, are you sure that's meant to be conveyed as a serious (for lack of a better word) statement?


----------



## HawkMan (Sep 28, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Every fandom appears that way.
> 
> It's all a matter of perspective, mostly having to do with dislike of a certain character. Typically, if you hate the character, you hate the fans as well.


Fandom is synonymous with excess, sure. But every fandom is unique, Minato and Itachi fandoms share a similarity in their zeal on this forum. Most of us regulars have been around enough to loath the Itachi fandom specifically, their list of atrocities and delusion is too much to enumerate. 

It's not about disliking certain characters. I could very easily like Itachi and dislike his fans, which I do. Just the utterance of "_The Itachi fan is overboard and delusional_" would brand me as a hater of Itachi, the correlation is unfounded. 

It's not about a dislike of a character, but the excess of his fans. People say, "_Anyone who dislikes a character because of his fans is silly_", but it's often difficult not to make that association as human beings. Fortunately I'm capable of partitioning this hatred for his fandom and still capable of appreciating his character without aggrandizing his every action.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 28, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> I'm not part of that, though.
> 
> Besides, I don't think the "Church of Itachi" is supposed to be taken seriously. It's in the "joke fanclubs" section, which I think acts as an indication people go there to let loose.



An excerpt from the holy church of the divine messiah fanclub.  

This is a fanclub dedicated to the one and only holy messiah: Uchiha Itachi. Unlike the other fanclub which just honors Itachi at a regular level, in here, we will honor thy bringer of light on a religious level. And I, priest of the holy church, will update my visions weekly with all of you my sons.

Let us start with a prayer, which is formed and will be led by
Illairen....


"Our Itachi who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy crow.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us today our illusions.
And forgive us our wank.
As we forgive those who wank one piece.
And lead us not into Tsukyomi,
But deliver us from Galactic.
For Thine is the kingdom,
The power and the glory,
Forever,
Amaterasu"

I'm sure these people realize Itachi is a fictional character, doesn't mean its  not creepy and it doesn't take away from the fact no other fandom does this (at least to my knowledge).


----------



## Scorpion (Sep 28, 2011)

Alright, let's just end this fucking annoying debate, that has been done TO DEATH. Nagato is stronger than Itachi, but not by a wide margin. The reason he lost is due to the following: 

1) Kabuto had complete control over Nagato and used his abilities noob-ishly. Attempting a random Chibaku Tensei is an example.

2) Itachi was given a huge period of time to examine Nagato's techniques and formulate a counter plan to save Naruto and Bee. Kabuto freakin' forgot he was even there. Simply activating Preta Path could've stopped Susano'o from cutting his arms off and freeing the two. He also could've sent Itachi to the next zip code with Shinra Tensei. 

3) Itachi doesn't have the firepower to take down Chibaku Tensei on his own; it took his Yasaka no Magatama, Bee's Hachibi Bijuudama, and Naruto's FRS to destroy it.

4) Nagato lacked mobility, as stated by Kabuto himself.

Calling eachother tards and attempting to use "logic" to see which fandom is more bias/tardish is a waste of time. Both fandoms have shown their share of stupidity.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (Sep 28, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> Fandom is synonymous with excess, sure. But every fandom is unique, Minato and Itachi fandoms share a similarity in their zeal on this forum. Most of us regulars have been around enough to loath the Itachi fandom specifically, their list of atrocities and delusion is too much to enumerate.
> 
> It's not about disliking certain characters. I could very easily like Itachi and dislike his fans, which I do. Just the utterance of "_The Itachi fan is overboard and delusional_" would brand me as a hater of Itachi, the correlation is unfounded.
> 
> It's not about a dislike of a character, but the excess of his fans. People say, "_Anyone who dislikes a character because of his fans is silly_", but it's often difficult not to make that association as human beings. Fortunately I'm capable of partitioning this hatred for his fandom and still capable of appreciating his character without aggrandizing his every action.



Fair enough.

Though, I'm not a zealous fan of Itachi's to begin with, so I don't partake in those "list of atrocities" you say exist and pervade the forum abundantly.



jimbob631 said:


> An excerpt from the holy church of the divine messiah fanclub.
> 
> This is a fanclub dedicated to the one and only holy messiah: Uchiha Itachi. Unlike the other fanclub which just honors Itachi at a regular level, in here, we will honor thy bringer of light on a religious level. And I, priest of the holy church, will update my visions weekly with all of you my sons.
> 
> ...



The prayer was rather funny, you have to admit that much. 

Well, seeing as Itachi is far from my favorite character, I suppose I'll agree with you all, and end the debate.


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## CCV (Sep 28, 2011)

Lets admit it, the entire fight was so plot driven that the skills and abilities of either party didn't matter.

1. No reason for nagato to take longer than half a second to pull out Naruto's soul. He yanked Shizuna out in an instant but Naruto had time to create a rasengan, faceplam himself, talk to bee and Nagato still hasn't yanked the soul out. 

2. It was impossible for itachi to know about shared vision. It took Jiriaya at least 2 exchanges and Fukusaku's observation to come up with the shared vision conclusion. Itachi somehow observed the shared vision in a place where he can't even see the eyes. (since he threw the kunais at a dead angle)

3. Nagato despite being a sensor didn't even dodge Itachi's attack. He was fully capable of using deva to dodge Chouza/choji's punch with no shared vision help, but he couldn't dodge Itachi's susanoo blitz.


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## BrokenBonds (Sep 28, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Again, are you sure that's meant to be conveyed as a serious (for lack of a better word) statement?


It doesn't make it any less annoying. 

I also hate it when Itachi fans say _"ITACHI SOLOS!1"_ in Battledrome threads, I've seen that comment said multiple times in threads that don't even concern Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 28, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Their level had everything to do with it. If Naruto was just a typical Jonin like Shizune Nagato could have instantly ripped his soul out before Itachi even attacked and he wouldn't have been a distraction at all.


That part was made for suspense. And Nagato can't soul rip a non fodder character instantly.

Or you could argue that, then Itachi wouldn't wait that long to make his move.




> If B was just a typical Jonin Nagato could have just punched him away rather than having to use Asura Path's powers to bind him and finish him with a his lazer cannon.


Now you are speculating here. You can't know how Nagato would handle someone else. He chose to do it that way, so I guess that is the way.
If he punched him away, then there would be no guarantee that he'd die. 
He could have simply stabbed Bee in the face if he wanted to, or rip him in half with his razor tail. He chose to aim and charge his lazor, it is a personal preference. You can't interfere with that.



> Beyond that it really doesn't matter if you don't think their levels had any importance, fact of the matter is Itachi had the advantage of ambushing a distracted enemy, which is a huge advantage that Itachi would not have in a straight forward 1v1 duel.


Thats what I think. They were handled with utter ease, and their skillset was never a part of the distraction they caused. So their level was irrelevant. Stop throwing in 'kage level'.

I agree that their distraction played a role but it could be replicated by Itachi by other means. 




> Orochimaru's Ksunagi Sword is also one of the 3 treasures and it is not nearly as powerful as Yata Mirror.


How is it one of the 3 treasures when totsuka, yata and magatama are the 3 treasures ? Its orochimaru's anyway, we are talking about Susanoo's weapons.



> On top of that It doesn't make much sense for Yata Magatama to be as powerful an offensive weapon as the Totsuka Sword, because if Yata Magatama was as strong as Totsuka Sword than it would be way better than Totsuka Sword since it can be used at all ranges, this would effectively mean that a Stage 3 Susano'o attack is > a Stage 4 Susano'o attack, which doesn't make much sense to me.


Completely different attacks.
And when were you under the impression that Totsuka was stronger than magatama ? 

Seriously, they are different. Totsuka is a sword with sealing enchantment. That sealing enchantment makes it extremely powerful. Magatama is a projectile with more destructive force. Their applications are different.



> Now with that said becuase Yata Magatama was named I expect it to be better than Sasuke's Susano'o arrows, but I don't expect it to be far beyond the level of Susano'o arrows.


Why ? Because it is more convenient for you ? It is one of Itachi's susanoo's legendary items. IT makes absolutely no sense for it to be alot weaker than the rest of the items.




> Yes it's not the same thing, but basically what this boils down to is that Itachi-fans assume that the totally featless Yata Magatama can bust CT which even you admit is very durable. Personally I have am not one to make that kind of assumption.



Ct's durability is featless in that sense. 
The most logical deduction is that we don't know what would happen.
What Itachi-fans are saying isn't any less reasonable than saying that Yasaka's magatma can't handle CT on its own.




> So it was a plot to emphasize the importance of team work, yet the author wanted readers to draw from it that Itachi could have done it alone, thus making teamwork completely irrelevant? That doesn't make much sense to me.


No, they did team work. For the sake of the theme, not because it was necessary. And their contribution was minimal. 




> I get the argument about increasing odds, I've heard it before. I just don't think Itachi would waste time giving the enemy the chance to strength his Jutsu or use other Jutsu to only increase his chances by 1% as your suggesting here.


Of course those numbers re just examples. I doubt thats what Itachi was thinking @ that moment.




> Kishi had Naruto and B be the ones who were distracting him and he had Naruto and B contribute their strongest technique to this fight, so I don't see how that was minimal contribution.


Their distraction was nothing more than getting fodderized by nagato with utmost ease. 
I'd hardly call it major.

Their contribution to the destruction of CT was a bit more significant, but it was also ambigious since we can't say for sure whether it was necessary or not.
Itachi figured it out, and told em what to do and he contributed himself. So again, even if you think bee and Naruto were necessary, Itachi did most of the work by himself.




> Now with that said Kishi obviously wanted Itachi to look like the Team Leader, but that speaks towards Itachi's intelligence and wisdom more than anything else.


So figuring out shared vision and disabling it, karate chopping Nagato, using yasaka's magatama and totsuka blitzing Nagato doesn't speak.. like any words for Itachi ? 
Cool, but I disagree. Respectfully of course.





> If I think it was a 3v1 battle, it's a great underestimation of Itachi




You are slow but yeah you got it finally.




> That makes so little sense when the battle was 3v1, you can argue how much B and Naruto were necessary or how much they contributed, but it was still a 3v1 battle and to say other wise i'd say is the biggest fan wanking of Itachi i've ever seen on these forums since it totally ignores reality lol.



3v1 make it sound like 3v1. 
It underestimates Itachi's contribution because he certainly contributed more than Bee and Naruto combined.

I guess you believe Kakashi vs Zabuza battle was also 3v1 as well.

Why do I get the feeling that you actually believe that


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## CA182 (Sep 28, 2011)

Ghost of Madara said:


> Incorrect:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I knew I didn't make that clear enough, oh well.

I fail to see where that Susanoo is not within Sasuke's vicinity. Aka short range.

Vicinity -
Noun: The area near or surrounding a particular place.

Vicinity doesn't just mean surrounding the user.

Anyways what I meant is Susanoo has never been shown to be able to leave a users side and become a mid-range or long range tech. Aka. been non-attached to it's user. 
It's literally tethered in how far away from it's user it can be.
(I reckon Sasuke's EMS susanoo may be different though.)

This is why this susanoo, which wasn't surrounding Itachi, followed him when he got pulled upwards by Chibaku Tensei.



Ghost of Madara said:


> Incorrect.  It's stated to block every attack:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Ok then can you please explain what I'm having trouble with then, and where I'm going wrong in my thought process?

If Yata's mirror _could_ block every ninjutsu and physical attack, why then did Itachi not use it against Chibaku Tensei?

He could have pulled it out right here just fine.


If it counters every ninjutsu, then as chibaku tensei is a ninjutsu. It would have been stopped by Yata's mirror according to databook 3, correct?

Problem is Itachi never did that, he decided on long range techs over the mirror.

So if Itachi decides against the mirror when facing chibaku tensei's gravity. Why should I assume Yata could stop shinra tensei's / Chou Shinra Tensei's repel?

Lastly even if Yata's mirror could negate the effect of gravity on Itachi, how does it negate the effect of gravity on the land he stands upon?
Both shinra tensei and chibaku tensei have been shown able to destroy the land the opponent is standing on.

...This is what confuses me.

Note - I won't accept the argument Itachi didn't have time to from the mirror. As he managed to form the full susanoo within an instant after the chibaku tensei explosion.


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## boohead (Sep 28, 2011)

HawkMan said:


> *Itachi fans are the most deluded on this forum, and numerous. It's sickening.*
> 
> The fight wasn't Itachi vs Nagato; it was Nagato vs Itachi, Naruto, and B.  If only to distract Nagato, B and Naruto helped Itachi to dismantle Nagato's defenses and defeat Chikabaku Tensei.
> 
> Too many focus on the end and assume it would play out the same if Nagato didn't have 3 opponents.



They are funny to laugh at, gotta admit. Their constant spamming of fan-fiction is great, but not sure if it belongs here.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 28, 2011)

To be honest, Nagato was facing Itachi who had the support of Naruto and Killer Bee, not merely Itachi alone. If nothing else, Naruto and Bee helped Itachi in stopping Nagato's Chibaku Tensei ('Celestial Terra Blaster') by attacking it at full force with their Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and biju dama.

We have no idea just how powerful Yasaka's Magatama really was, but I don't believe for one second that it would be enough to destroy Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, it certainly shouldn't be anywhere as powerful as Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, let alone the full Hachibi's biju dama.

Also, Nagato's lack of mobility makes him an easy target for moves like Amaterasu and Susano'o, so in a sense, Itachi could very well just a bad match up for him. The fact he then had to focus on three powerful opponents instead of one likely would've also increased the pressure on him.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 28, 2011)

Wind Master said:


> To be honest, Nagato was facing Itachi who had the support of Naruto and Killer Bee, not merely Itachi alone. If nothing else, Naruto and Bee helped Itachi in stopping Nagato's Chibaku Tensei ('Celestial Terra Blaster') by attacking it at full force with their Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and biju dama.
> 
> We have no idea just how powerful Yasaka's Magatama really was, but I don't believe for one second that it would be enough to destroy Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, it certainly shouldn't be anywhere as powerful as Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, let alone the full Hachibi's biju dama.
> 
> Also, Nagato's lack of mobility makes him an easy target for moves like Amaterasu and Susano'o, so in a sense, Itachi could very well just a bad match up for him. The fact he then had to focus on three powerful opponents instead of one likely would've also increased the pressure on him.



Why shouldn't it be?

The other weapons of Susanoo are legendary, why would his long range attack be of vastly inferior quality?

Your entire post is phrased in a way that defends Nagato getting canned. 

That's what all of this about - this entire thread. 

You all must think Itachi fans live in some alternate reality of stupidity if you don't think we know Nagato fans and Itachi detractors were shocked by how quickly Itachi brought stability to the rapestomp Nagato was dishing out to Bee and Naruto. We all saw what happened, but you guys are too emotionally connected to Nagato, or keeping Itachi's hype under control, to admit the truth to yourself. 

Without Itachi there, Naruto and Bee were both brought to the point of death. WITH Itachi there, they were rescued, a plan was made by Itachi to destroy CT, which caused Naruto panic, and turned Bee into a mute. Itachi figured out the technique, and even had to calm Naruto down. He had never faced the jutsu before, unlike Naruto, and he had to calm Naruto and plan how to attack it. Needless to say, the plan worked to perfection. 

As for them helping? My only problem with this is, you all are using the fact that they helped as EVIDENCE that Itachi couldn't do it by himself. How in the hell can any able-brained human being know that? The dude had two powerful jin next to him, WITH LONG RANGE ATTACKS, and considering the severity of the situation, he did the most practical thing. But, to protect Nagato legacy, you all are making the leap in logic that he couldn't do it alone. 

I know that you all know that you couldn't possibly know that. His mind ALONE -I.e. figured out shared vision; and how to put an end to CT - was able to figure out how to stop Nagato, and his jutsus were enough to kill his strongest summon, and seal Nagato without Naruto or Bee's help. However, knowing this, you're going to tell me you KNOW that he couldn't taken out CT alone? 

None of us even know how strong the damn jutsu is relative to the B and Naruto's ranged attacks, let alone CT. This is but mere wishful and desperate thinking by a fandom who was given the short end of the stick by Kishimoto. 

I only entertain these discussions because, in some way, I feel sorry for you guys. We're not blind. We see what's going on here. Remember, Itachi was supposed to get trolled in this battle? Everyone joined in on Turrin's thread about Itachi being trolled, and he took a steamy hot piss all over it. 


At the end of the day, Itachi took Nagato out twice, when Naruto and Bee couldn't even *hit* him ONCE. If you can't see who the star of that show was, then you don't want to see. 

By the way, you dudes who like to quote each individual sentence can stop doing that. That is just annoying to me. 

The manga speaks for itself. Obsessing over the details doesn't change the end result. Itachi defeated Orochimaru before he could make a move, and OROCHIMARU walked away believing Itachi was stronger than him. Yet, everyone else is still defending Orochimaru, even though he admitted inferiority. The details didn't matter, no matter how much you apply battledome logic to it.

Blame Kishimoto, not Itachi. 

The Orochimaru versus Itachi battles are proof that Kishimoto cares far more about the end result than he does the path to getting there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 28, 2011)

Wind Master said:


> To be honest, Nagato was facing Itachi who had the support of Naruto and Killer Bee, not merely Itachi alone. If nothing else, Naruto and Bee helped Itachi in stopping Nagato's Chibaku Tensei ('Celestial Terra Blaster') by attacking it at full force with their Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and biju dama.
> 
> We have no idea just how powerful Yasaka's Magatama really was, but I don't believe for one second that it would be enough to destroy Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, it certainly shouldn't be anywhere as powerful as Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, let alone the full Hachibi's biju dama.
> 
> Also, Nagato's lack of mobility makes him an easy target for moves like Amaterasu and Susano'o, so in a sense, Itachi could very well just a bad match up for him. The fact he then had to focus on three powerful opponents instead of one likely would've also increased the pressure on him.



Naruto's FRS is the rasengan of part 2 dawg. I am 100% confident that Yasaka's magatama is stronger than that.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 28, 2011)

> Without Itachi there, Naruto and Bee were both brought to the point of death. WITH Itachi there, they were rescued, a plan was made by Itachi to destroy CT, which caused Naruto panic, and turned Bee into a mute. Itachi figured out the technique, and even had to calm Naruto down. He had never faced the jutsu before, unlike Naruto, and he had to calm Naruto and plan how to attack it. Needless to say, the plan worked to perfection.



You don't think we can play that game as well?

-With Naruto and Bee there, Itachi was never the focus of Nagato's attacks

-With Naruto and Bee there, Itachi had time to think and plan his attacks

-With Naruto and Bee there, Itachi was able to destroy CT.



> The manga speaks for itself.



Indeed it does.

And stop using the Oro example.Itachi didn't have help against Oro.Oro wasn't fighting two other opponents along with Itachi.And after everything was said and done, Kishi did not feel the need to account Oro's loss to him lacking mobility or anything of the sort.

That should tell you something.



> and seal Nagato without Naruto or Bee's help.



Actually they did help.Their efforts created the dust cloud from which Itachi struck.



> However, knowing this, you're going to tell me you KNOW that he couldn't taken out CT alone?



Having the smarts doesn't automatically give him the power to take it out.. But yes, there's no proof one way or the other..



> Yet, everyone else is still defending Orochimaru, even though he admitted inferiority. The details didn't matter, no matter how much you apply battledome logic to it.





Im sure they don't matter to an Itachi fan.And i don't care what matters to you.

And btw, noone said or even imply Itachi>Nagato.So, you have no argument.


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## Jυstin (Sep 28, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> FRS, Bijuudama, and keeping Nagato distracted is minimal...this is why I call you guys delusional



The "Nagato was distracted" argument holds as much water as an upside down cup, and you call us delusional. Nagato was no more distracted from Itachi than he was from Bee. It's like you don't understand shared vision. Nagato caught Bee because of his shared vision. Nagato wasn't surprised because he was distracted. Nagato was surprised because Itachi took out his shared vision first. Nagato wasn't distracted because he was still keeping an eye on his surroundings, but Itachi got around that.

We've no clue if FRS or Bijuudama were needed, just like we can't say they weren't needed. We simply don't know. Just because you blow a door open with a cannon, doesn't mean a shot gun wouldn't have done the trick.



> Sure I would agree Itachi was very impressive, doesn't mean you guys as a whole don't argue Itachi soloed Nagato.



The sensible Itachi fans aren't arguing that he outright soloed, and that a 1 vs 1 would probably transgress differently. I never argued that Itachi wasn't alone. I simply pointed out that Naruto and Bee's assistance were far more insubstantial than some Nagato fans are saying. Until Itachi came in to rescue them, they couldn't do a thing. They were struggling. They would have been dead had Itachi not done what he did, and been smart enough to get past Nagato's shared vision.

*Itachi* helped *them*.



> Your making huge assumptions which are basically fanfiction.  Nagato is crippled, you have no idea if the mobility is because he hasn't been using his body.  People jumped on the idea that Nagato regained use of his legs because he absorbed bijuu chakra but this makes no sense as he could have done this when he was alive.



Nagato was skin and bones up until he regained his prime state, something that would happen to someone who's been hooked up to a statue for years, using Pein to fight instead of their real body. His muscles would deteriorate from not using them. It's called muscle atrophy. Look it up.

No, Nagato would not have regained perfect use of his legs upon absorbing Bijuu chakra, because his legs still wouldn't be used to moving. Like I said, muscle atrophy.

It certainly makes more sense than "Some other unknown reason caused Nagato's muscles to deteriorate and make him unable to move well, and he can't recover from it at all, even though his method of fighting has been using Pein while he himself remains hooked up to the Gedo Mazo for years.", when there is literally nothing to support this, at all.

That makes sense as an excuse, but not a sound argument.



> No but having depleted chakra certainly doesn't help and he would have prevented losing his arm if he used Shinra Tensei right away, Kabuto was listening to Itachi which is why he didn't use it right away.



Where does it say Nagato had depleted chakra? Simply going prime from absorbing *MASSIVE* amounts of chakra doesn't mean Nagato didn't have any chakra, especially since he was using his techniques fine prior. He was in that "depleted" state since before he died, while he was attacking Konoha, and his chakra levels were beastly.

The "Kabuto was listening to Itachi" argument might have made sense, if Kabuto was in full control. He wasn't. Kabuto just hears things through the Edo summons. Talking never stopped the other Edo Tensei. Besides, it has been stated that the Edo Tensei summons are programmed to react to any attacks used against them if possible. Nagato didn't, because he couldn't.

Realistically, Shinra Tensei wouldn't stop Amaterasu from hitting you. He can't repel the flames if they're not made yet, but once they're made, they're on him. He has to wait till they are made to repel them, which would mean they're already on him. If he tries to repel before they're made, he'll be waiting 5 seconds before he can repel it again, and that could be fatal.

Anyway, arguing that "depleted chakra means Amaterasu burns you faster / depleted chakra caused Nagato to use Shinra Tensei late", "Nagato had depleted chakra cause he was in his skinny state, even though he was a chakra beast while he was alive in the same skinny state" and "Nagato got hit because Kabuto being able to hear distracts him from making his Edo summons react even though they're programmed to do that automatically" is grasping.

These again are all excuses with no soundness to them nor any means of backing up, other than "just believe these reasons", when there's manga evidence to the contrary.



> Idk what your talking about here, Kabuto was listening to Itachi talk about Shisui, thats what I was talking about.



This means nothing. Kabuto is simply able to hear what his Edo summons hear. You know how many Edo summons he has out at the same time whom he's hearing everything though, at the same time? This hasn't impeded the other Edo summons, because Kabuto isn't in full control of them till he chooses it. They're programmed to _automatically_ react to attacks by default.

Again, you tried to make an excuse. Not an argument.



> Yeah I'm aware, again I don't see what this has to do with anything I said



Because you're trying to excuse Nagato/Kabuto because he was distracted by Naruto and Bee when Itachi attacked. This wasn't a problem when Bee attacked, because he wasn't distracted. His shared vision was watching vigilantly, and caught Bee. Itachi simply took it out. That's what ninja do.

Arguing that Kabuto was distracted with Naruto and Bee isn't even worthy of being called an excuse.



> Sure we don't know for sure, it hasn't stopped Itachi fans from arguing two amaterasu shots to the core would have done the trick.  Or my favorite that Itachi could have destroyed it right away but decided this was a prime opportunity to teach Naruto a lesson on ninjutsu.



My argument would be that, he _might_ have been able to destroy it right away, if he'd attacked it before it started surrounding itself with condensed debris, since he knew its weakness, but one of his intelligence would ere on the side of caution, and have Naruto and Bee help, but he had to get their attention and explain first. It's possible that attacking the core as it is formed would do more damage, and it's possible that one Amaterasu could burn up the mass of chakra completely, like it burned up the Hachibi.

We simply don't know, though it's plausible.



> Total bull shit, go to the battledome and check it out.  Nagato fans think its silly to view Itachi on the same level because of feats but more importantly your talking about the reincarnation of the strongest character in the manga.



This doesn't help your argument that Itachi fans are less sensible than Nagato fans. You've just described the mentality of Nagato fans being "OMG his Jutsu are so hax! Power means everything! Fuck the rest! Nothing can beat that! Nothing! He's the 'reincarnation' of the strongest character so that makes him the best!".

Ignoring the constant lessons that power isn't everything. Itachi showed that when he used intelligence and/or basic ninja skills to defeat the Cerberus, take out Nagato's shared vision, figure out how to destroy CT, and use the shock and cover to his advantage to seal Nagato before anyone could react. This isn't an "Itachi > Nagato" sentiment either. I'm just highlighting Itachi's intelligence. He's a true ninja.

Also ignoring that Nagato's no reincarnation. Madara _gave_ him those Rin'negan eyes. He could have given them to anybody. The Rin'negan isn't the strongest Dojutsu. It was said that it "Holds a most powerful Dojutsu". "A most powerful" does not mean "most powerful". It is not an absolute statement, yet, these facts are overlooked blatantly.

Itachi and Nagato are both top tier. It doesn't matter who is more powerful, because either possesses abilities that can take the other out. Skill and intelligence go a lot father than power does, especially if the one who possesses it also has power. Intelligence and skill are Itachi's hax.



> Go outside and get some fresh air, worshiping a manga character in the first place is beyond strange.



I already did. 10 hours of it actually. Some of us have a lives and jobs to get to instead of trying to profusely beat down some manga character because he's on par with their 'god'. I advise you to do the same cause you were here arguing just as much as me 

Seriously. You're one to talk. I'm stating that while Itachi can win, he can also lose outside of a plot based fight against Nagato. It's very believable. You're the one saying Nagato outright stomps cause he's got the Rin'negan, haxed techniques, and is the Sage's reincarnation.

Who's the real worshiper?


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## Jυstin (Sep 28, 2011)

> We have no idea just how powerful Yasaka's Magatama really was, but I don't believe for one second that it would be enough to destroy Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, it certainly shouldn't be anywhere as powerful as Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, let alone the full Hachibi's biju dama.



Yasaka's Magatama being able to take out CT alone doesn't mean it's stronger than Fuuton: Rasenshuriken or Bijuu Dama. Who knows if it is or not. If it's not, it means each attack alone can take out CT. But we don't know for sure.



畜生道 said:


> One could only assume that if Itachi didn't have his other eye closed and wasn't staring at Nagato like that..



Like I said, he'd just cast the Jutsu, and turned to look back at Nagato after Nagato addressed him. My point was that Nagato was commenting on what Itachi did with the crow.



> Link



They were all under Kabuto's control. They were saying that they couldn't actively choose to attack each other, but this has no bearing on defending, dodging, or just plain reacting to unfriendly attacks.

This would also be to say that Edo Tensei who are under different people's control wouldn't be able to fight each other, which makes no sense. They simply couldn't fight each other because Kabuto was in control of them all. Itachi wasn't under his control. He was freed from the Jutsu.



> Nagato had his mind wiped.He was nothing but Kabuto's puppet.Besides if there was an order not to fight your fellow Edos, Kabuto would've done something about that at that point don't you think?



There wouldn't need to be such an order. Kabuto was in control of ordering them to attack, and letting them just stand there and talk. Defending from attacks, however, was set to happen automatically. They wouldn't need to defend against each others attacks because Kabuto wouldn't order said attacks, but it doesn't mean they couldn't defend.

Besides, Itachi escaped the Jutsu, those "programs". He wouldn't have been part of the system anymore.

I'll just say that if Itachi fights any Edos in the future, I don't expect them to act like he doesn't exist and do nothing. That'd be too easy.



> And one way of responding to Amaterasu includes attacking Itachi himself.Using his forest busting ST.



Nagato was kinda thrown off his summon, which was on fire too. Even a non Edo Tensei's first thought would be to escape the fire than to counter attack.

Using Shinra Tensei on Itachi wouldn't have been responding to the attack to avoid it. It would have been a revenge hit. Not the same 

But in a non-Edo fight, you're right. Nagato probably could use it to hit Itachi as well... most of the time. In that situation Nagato's concern would be his own safety first.



> Glad we agree



Well it's not just "attack vs attack"  There'd be other shenaniganz going on as well, so when I mention stuff like that, I bring them up as effective strategies rather than exactly how something would go down 





> Not really. It was already stated that Edo's aren't allowed to fight one another, so why would the auto-pilot be for someone Nagato is completely forbidden to fight?



It was stated that they could not actively attack each other because Kabuto was in control of them all. It said nothing about not being able to react to attacks made against them, because it was said they could and would if possible. Defending isn't fighting.

Also, Itachi was freed from the Jutsu, no longer under Kabuto's control, which was what was keeping them from being able to attack each other. Kabuto wasn't telling them to attack.

He doesn't have to tell them when to defend, however.



> What I don't get from Itachi fans is, if Kishi's intention with this fight was to depict Itachi as stronger, why not have Itachi solo? Why did he give Nagato an excuse for his defeat? Why have Itachi lecture Naruto about how help from others is essential for success right after they all defeat Nagato? When Kishi wanted to show Itachi > Others like Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke, and Deidara he made it clear. Why make this situation so ambiguous if it is meant to be clear?



We're not saying Itachi is stronger. Most of us anyway. Nagato is too good to be solo'd via one-panel, even by Itachi.

Likewise, Nagato wasn't depicting as stomping Itachi or overpowering him, and the three of them having to attack him as a team to win. Naruto and Bee's help was more indirect than that. Beforehand, Naruto and Bee were unable to to a single thing to Nagato. They were struggling. Itachi was the one who helped them.

Kishi would never make Itachi do to Nagato what he did to Orochimaru. Those two are on two different levels. I don't think Itachi would be able to do that to Nagato. They're around the same level (in the same tier). Itachi's isn't outright superior.

That lecture was focused on Itachi admitting his own mistakes while addressing Naruto's "solo hero" attitude problem, which Naruto had been developing for a while now. I don't see it referring much to the fight because there was no real emphasis on anyone trying to do everything themselves. More so it seemed to reinforce that Naruto didn't have to do everything himself, because Itachi had his back.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 28, 2011)

> Like I said, he'd just cast the Jutsu, and turned to look back at Nagato after Nagato addressed him. *My point was that Nagato was commenting on what Itachi did with the crow.*



Yeah, right after he saw Itachi staring him like that.There's no reason to keep his eye closed.And again, *the timing of Nagato's comment.*



About the orders, Kabuto being in control and all that:

Link

Those with their mind intact (and notice Itachi and Nagato on that panel) are just bound enough to follow orders.Otherwise, they have certain freedoms.



> Nagato was kinda thrown off his summon, which was on fire too. Even a non Edo Tensei's first thought would be to escape the fire than to counter attack.



But weren't Edos suppose to automatically defend against an attack?That's what you were saying?



> Using Shinra Tensei on Itachi wouldn't have been responding to the attack to avoid it. It would have been a revenge hit. Not the same



I meant him to try and hit Itachi before Itachi hits him..


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## Turrin (Sep 28, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That part was made for suspense. And Nagato can't soul rip a non fodder character instantly.


Nagato can't soul rip a non fodder based on what? It was specifically indicated by B that the experience Naruto gained through his tug of war with the Kyuubi would help him against Soul Rip, we also see Naruto making use of his own physical strength and kyuubi chakra claws to keep hold of his soul. There are few people that are going to have experience with this type of thing like Naruto and there are few people who are going to have Naruto's + Kyuubi chakra claw's physical strength to tug of war with, so Naruto is one of the people best equipped to resist Human Path. 

Also if your saying that the reason Nagato couldn't instantly soul rip Naruto is because Naruto isn't a fodder like Shizune your already admitting it's about "level" therefore your actually proving yourself wrong.



> Or you could argue that, then Itachi wouldn't wait that long to make his move.


And if Itachi was forced to attack sooner he wouldn't have had time to gather knowledge on Nagato's abilities like Shared vision and wouldn't have been able to perform such an effective ambush



> Now you are speculating here. You can't know how Nagato would handle someone else. He chose to do it that way, so I guess that is the way.
> If he punched him away, then there would be no guarantee that he'd die.
> He could have simply stabbed Bee in the face if he wanted to, or rip him in half with his razor tail. He chose to aim and charge his lazor, it is a personal preference. You can't interfere with that.


Actually I can know how much of the Asura path's power Nagato would use on someone he felt was weak, since I can look at how Nagato utilized the Asura Pain and he used rocket fist, his knife life weapons, or missiles rather than binding an enemy and pulling out Asura Path's strongest attack [the lazer].



> I agree that their distraction played a role but it could be replicated by Itachi by other means.


Maybe he could and maybe he couldn't, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. 



> How is it one of the 3 treasures when totsuka, yata and magatama are the 3 treasures ?


Because the third treasure is the Ksunagi sword which is identical to Orochimaru's and the Ksunagi sword in myth is said to have been found in the tail of Yamata no Orochi. 




> Its orochimaru's anyway, we are talking about Susanoo's weapons.


I realize that, however you said because Yata Magatama is one of the 3 treasures it should be as strong/hax as Yata Mirror, which I pointed out is false.



> Seriously, they are different. Totsuka is a sword with sealing enchantment. That sealing enchantment makes it extremely powerful. Magatama is a projectile with more destructive force. Their applications are different.


I realize their applications would be different, but my problem remains the same it is nonsensical for a Stage 3 Susano'o attack to be = to a Stage 4 Susano'o attack, when we were shown a very clear progression in which Susano'o's offensive might increases as it goes up in stages.



> Why ? Because it is more convenient for you ? It is one of Itachi's susanoo's legendary items. IT makes absolutely no sense for it to be alot weaker than the rest of the items.


No it makes no sense to automatically assume that all Susano'o's items are identical in strength. Are all Rikudo sannin's legendary items equal in strength, no they are not. The Seven Star Sword, Rope of Clarity, and Crimson Gourd would all be nearly useless individually and far weaker than the Amber Sealing Pot or the Banna Fan. 



> Ct's durability is featless in that sense.


CT has the durability feat of being able to tank multiple huge boulders and the weight of thousands of pounds being compacted into it, which even you said made it very durable. We've already been through this.



> The most logical deduction is that we don't know what would happen.


Which I already said in my original post. My pain point was, if we don't know what would have happened why I am I seeing Itachi fans use this fight to prove Itachi > or = to Nagato, when at the same time they are admitting that they don't even know if Itachi could have countered CT by himself. I just don't get it.



> What Itachi-fans are saying isn't any less reasonable than saying that Yasaka's magatma can't handle CT on its own.


In my opinion it is less reasonable because CT actually has very impressive durability feats, while Yata Magatama has zero feats. 

I mean think about it from another perspective here. Let's say for instance that it was Nagato, Naruto, and B vs Itachi and Nagato asked B and Naruto to  uses their strongest attacks with him while he used a total unseen attack and together they succeed in shattering the Yata Mirror. Are you going to say that its equally likely Nagato could have shattered the Yata Mirror on his own? I really, really doubt that.

Or another example if Yata Magatama ends up busting a mountain during the Kabuto fight are you going to still say its equally likely that CT could withstand Yata Magatama by itself? 

My point being that If one of Itachi's Jutsu has good durability/offense feats and another person's Jutsu had zero feats you would not be in here saying the chances are equal. The only reason you are in here saying the chances are equal is because Itachi's on the other end of this equation with his Jutsu having no feats and we both know it.



> No, they did team work. For the sake of the theme, not because it was necessary.


The theme was that one needs to rely on their companions otherwise they are likely to fail, yet Kishi wanted us to draw from this battle that Itachi would likely succeed w/o his companions. Don't you get that, that totally undermines the theme LOL.



> And their contribution was minimal.


Someone using their strongest Jutsu for someone else's sake in the middle of a battle is not minimal contribution. Again I feel like we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Itachi was on the other end of this, I.E. if Itachi had used Stage 4 Susano'o for B's or Naruto's plan I doubt you would be arguing that Itachi's contribution was minimal. 

But once again since Itachi is on the other end of the equation you are arguing that B's and Naruto's contribution were minimal in-order to make Itachi look better. Fact of the matter when someone uses their strongest Jutsu it's never minimal assistance. 



> Of course those numbers re just examples. I doubt thats what Itachi was thinking @ that moment.


So how much do you think Itachi believed he increased his odds of victory by, in-order to believe it was wise to waste this time allowing Ct to become more durable and Nagato to do whatever the hell he wanted? 

Because I'd say the only way Itachi would do that is if he felt B and Naruto helping him significantly increased his odds of countering CT. 



> So figuring out shared vision and disabling it, karate chopping Nagato, using yasaka's magatama and totsuka blitzing Nagato doesn't speak.. like any words for Itachi ?
> Cool, but I disagree. Respectfully of course.


Figuring out Shared Vision - Speaks Towards Intelligence
Effectively Ambushing Nagato - Again had more to do with Intelligence, since him figuring out shared vision was the key factor here
Yata Magatama - remains featless at the moment other than the assumption that its a formidable long range attack, which does speak towards his strength some what, but I'm assuming when we actually get feats from it in the Kabuto battle that is the battle which will speak more towards it's strength than this one

Totsuka Blitzing Nagato - who couldn't use any Jutsu after CT, didn't have shared vision, and is a crippled isn't really impressive in the slightest. 

So yeah I'll stand by my statement that the battle speaks towards Itachi's intelligence and team leading capabilities more than anything else.



> 3v1 make it sound like 3v1.
> It underestimates Itachi's contribution because he certainly contributed more than Bee and Naruto combined.
> 
> I guess you believe Kakashi vs Zabuza battle was also 3v1 as well.
> ...


If 3 people are involved in the fight than its 3v1, that's the facts. You can debate how helpful or necessary those people were in said fight, but it doesn't change the fact that the battle was 3v1. 

As for the actual battle in question your saying i'm underestimating Itachi by calling the battle 3v1, but at the same time you stated that we don't know if Itachi could have overcome CT by himself, so how are B and Naruto who ensure Itachi's victory not an important part of this battle? Unless your just assuming Itachi 100% would have won w/o them, in which case your not even  going by your own word that we don't know if Itachi could or couldn't have overcome CT on his own.


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## Vice (Sep 28, 2011)

Very important point Turrin has made. If the situation was reversed and it was Nagato, Naruto and Bee vs. Itachi and they used their three strongest attacks against Itachi's, would they then accept that Nagato on his own could stop Itachi? I'm fairly certain they'd make the claim that it took the three of them combined to stop Itachi despite the situation being exactly the same aside from switching Itachi with Nagato.


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## Hasan (Sep 28, 2011)

Wind Master said:


> To be honest, Nagato was facing Itachi who had the support of Naruto and Killer Bee, not merely Itachi alone. If nothing else, Naruto and Bee helped Itachi in stopping Nagato's Chibaku Tensei ('Celestial Terra Blaster') by attacking it at full force with their Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and biju dama.
> 
> We have no idea just how powerful Yasaka's Magatama really was, but I don't believe for one second that it would be enough to destroy Nagato's Chibaku Tensei, it certainly shouldn't be anywhere as powerful as Naruto's Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, let alone the full Hachibi's biju dama.
> 
> Also, Nagato's lack of mobility makes him an easy target for moves like Amaterasu and Susano'o, so in a sense, Itachi could very well just a bad match up for him. The fact he then had to focus on three powerful opponents instead of one likely would've also increased the pressure on him.



Agreed. 

I think Kishi should have written it this way:
*Itachi:* Yasaka Magatama!
*Itachi:* ....it failed
*Itachi:* Let's use our strongest attacks _together_
*Naruto/Bee:* okay!

It was author's intent from the beginning. He could make Nagato look bad but he couldn't do the same with Itachi.


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## Mongolia (Sep 28, 2011)

Lol you people mad cause Itachi always does the solo'ing.
No reason denying it. Just get over it, he's the fucking Messiah.

amen


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## Black☆Star (Sep 28, 2011)

Pok?mon said:


> Lol you people mad cause Itachi always does the solo'ing.
> No reason denying it. Just get over it, he's the fucking Messiah.
> 
> amen



How the hell did he solo when he had Naruto and Bee there to help him ?

Seriously, stop riding Itachi's dick for a minute and be rational


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## Kenpachi_Uchiha (Sep 28, 2011)

Vice said:


> Very important point Turrin has made. If the situation was reversed and it was Nagato, Naruto and Bee vs. Itachi and they used their three strongest attacks against Itachi's, would they then accept that Nagato on his own could stop Itachi? I'm fairly certain they'd make the claim that it took the three of them combined to stop Itachi despite the situation being exactly the same aside from switching Itachi with Nagato.



No itd be same way around. Nagato fans would argue in favor of him.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 28, 2011)

I remember when Kurenai was being handled by Itachi, everyone said that she and Asuma were in Kakashi's way, and that's why he was owned so badly.

Now that both Naruto and Bee got owned by Nagato, they were helping Itachi.


lol.

I love how you guys believe Itachi going unscathed and taking out Nagato twice - not to mention, figuring out his shared vision and CT - means nothing. Lol. 

Lol.

Incredible.


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## jimbob631 (Sep 28, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> The "Nagato was distracted" argument holds as much water as an upside down cup, and you call us delusional. Nagato was no more distracted from Itachi than he was from Bee. It's like you don't understand shared vision. Nagato caught Bee because of his shared vision. Nagato wasn't surprised because he was distracted. Nagato was surprised because Itachi took out his shared vision first. Nagato wasn't distracted because he was still keeping an eye on his surroundings, but Itachi got around that.



Shared vision doesn't mean Nagato doesn't have his hands full with two of the strongest jinchuriki.  Is it that hard to understand that even with shared vision it would be near impossible to counter Susano with Nagato's hands full.  



Jυstin said:


> We've no clue if FRS or Bijuudama were needed, just like we can't say they weren't needed. We simply don't know. Just because you blow a door open with a cannon, doesn't mean a shot gun wouldn't have done the trick.



Sure, doesn't mean Naruto and Bee didn't help though, and as of now the fact that Kishimoto had all three work together seems to indicate they were all needed.  






Jυstin said:


> Nagato was skin and bones up until he regained his prime state, something that would happen to someone who's been hooked up to a statue for years, using Pein to fight instead of their real body. His muscles would deteriorate from not using them. It's called muscle atrophy. Look it up.



I'm not arguing this, I'm in agreement that he was crippled, this lends itself to the idea Nagato was not at full strength and had limited mobility.  The Nagato we saw fight Hanzo has clearly superior mobility along with access to Gedo Mazo.  So yes, we're in agreement that Nagato was not at full strength.  



Jυstin said:


> Where does it say Nagato had depleted chakra? Simply going prime from absorbing *MASSIVE* amounts of chakra doesn't mean Nagato didn't have any chakra, especially since he was using his techniques fine prior. He was in that "depleted" state since before he died, while he was attacking Konoha, and his chakra levels were beastly.



He got in the depleted state after bringing everyone back to life.  He has some chakra but clearly he's not at his max.  



Jυstin said:


> The "Kabuto was listening to Itachi" argument might have made sense, if Kabuto was in full control. He wasn't. Kabuto just hears things through the Edo summons. Talking never stopped the other Edo Tensei. Besides, it has been stated that the Edo Tensei summons are programmed to react to any attacks used against them if possible. Nagato didn't, because he couldn't.



Where was this said?  Its clear Nagato could have either absorbed amaterasu or shinra tensei'd it way earlier, he didn't because Kabuto wasn't listening.  Specific techniques seem to need Kabuto's command.  Even if it wasn't, Nagato has shown the ability to grow machine arms with Asura path.  



Jυstin said:


> Realistically, Shinra Tensei wouldn't stop Amaterasu from hitting you. He can't repel the flames if they're not made yet, but once they're made, they're on him. He has to wait till they are made to repel them, which would mean they're already on him. If he tries to repel before they're made, he'll be waiting 5 seconds before he can repel it again, and that could be fatal.



We've seen hardly any damage done with amaterasu to both Bee and Karin, 5 seconds should be fine.  






Jυstin said:


> My argument would be that, he _might_ have been able to destroy it right away, if he'd attacked it before it started surrounding itself with condensed debris, since he knew its weakness, but one of his intelligence would ere on the side of caution, and have Naruto and Bee help, but he had to get their attention and explain first. It's possible that attacking the core as it is formed would do more damage, and it's possible that one Amaterasu could burn up the mass of chakra completely, like it burned up the Hachibi.



He knew its weakness after he saw it being surrounded by debris, he can't know it has a gravitational pull until its covered already.  And you say I'm not reading the manga:rofl



Jυstin said:


> This doesn't help your argument that Itachi fans are less sensible than Nagato fans. You've just described the mentality of Nagato fans being "OMG his Jutsu are so hax! Power means everything! Fuck the rest! Nothing can beat that! Nothing! He's the 'reincarnation' of the strongest character so that makes him the best!".



No what I was saying was someone who has the power of the uchiha and senju and who is the reincarnation of the strongest character should logically be more powerful than an Uchiha who isn't even the epitome of the clan (EMS would be).  



Jυstin said:


> Also ignoring that Nagato's no reincarnation. Madara _gave_ him those Rin'negan eyes. He could have given them to anybody. The Rin'negan isn't the strongest Dojutsu. It was said that it "Holds a most powerful Dojutsu". "A most powerful" does not mean "most powerful". It is not an absolute statement, yet, these facts are overlooked blatantly.



We don't know the details of this whatsoever, as of now its all speculation what Madara did, we know he had a hand in it but we don't know if he literally threw some eyes in Nagato.  When I say reincarnation I don't mean it literally.  





Jυstin said:


> I already did. 10 hours of it actually. Some of us have a lives and jobs to get to instead of trying to profusely beat down some manga character because he's on par with their 'god'. I advise you to do the same cause you were here arguing just as much as me



I only post here when I'm bored in class or I'm doing homework, however I wasn't criticizing you posting here, it was a comment on Itachi fans literally creating a religion....


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 28, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> I remember when Kurenai was being handled by Itachi, everyone said that she and Asuma were in Kakashi's way, and that's why he was owned so badly.
> 
> Now that both Naruto and Bee got owned by Nagato, they were helping Itachi.
> 
> ...



You are like a broken record..


Anyway, Kurenai and Asuma didn't create openings for Kakashi that he successfully took advantage of.They didn't help him destroy the enemy's jutsu that was about to kill/capture them and by that creating a dust cloud from which he could safely deal the final blow..


And noone said that it means nothing.Turrin and others have stated that it speaks highly of Itachi's intelligence.It doesn't put him above anyone though-powerwise.


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## KingBoo (Sep 28, 2011)

personally i didn't find itachi vs nagato impressive at all. nagato didn't do anything surprising when he defeated bee and naruto in seconds. it was to be expected. and the only move that he can do to stop itachi was CB. which was figured out by itachi and then defeated. and to make matters worse for nagato, CB was allowed to grow when itachi was busy chatting. should have just destroyed it and then explain it. ah well.

and with itachi, there wasn't anything new besides the new susano weapon. i already know he can solo kage level opponents. i already know he can own with just kunais. i already know nagato was already sealed the very second itachi switched sides.

i think we can all agree that maybe itachi vs jiraiya in sage mode, minato with kunais already set up, nagato prime AND 6 pain bodies, prime madara, bee, and finally naruto would be a little impressive when itachi wins with moderate difficulty. I would be very impressed if he can do it with relative ease.

but then you got the itachitards who think that itachi can fight all those people PLUS rikudo sage and several kages, and inari with legendary susano cross bow. now that's just insane. might as well make it aoba vs itachi if you hate itachi so much and want him to lose.


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## Jυstin (Sep 29, 2011)

> Yeah, right after he saw Itachi staring him like that.There's no reason to keep his eye closed.And again, the timing of Nagato's comment.



The comment though was made in response to Nagato furiously asking Itachi what he did regarding the crow, then he was like, "Oh, I see what you did.".



> About the orders, Kabuto being in control and all that:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Those with their mind intact (and notice Itachi and Nagato on that panel) are just bound enough to follow orders.Otherwise, they have certain freedoms.



They had their mind intact, but it was said they couldn't move on their own. Kabuto only mentioned allowing their personalities and minds to remain, but he was still giving their other orders.



jimbob631 said:


> Shared vision doesn't mean Nagato doesn't have his hands full with two of the strongest jinchuriki.  Is it that hard to understand that even with shared vision it would be near impossible to counter Susano with Nagato's hands full.



And having his hands full with them doesn't mean he would be distracted.

How hard is it for _you_ to understand? Bee could not surprise attack Nagato even while Nagato was busy with Naruto, because his summons' shared vision were keeping watch.

Nagato wasn't caught off guard by Susano'o because his hands were full. He was caught off guard because Itachi incapacitated his shared vision.



> Sure, doesn't mean Naruto and Bee didn't help though, and as of now the fact that Kishimoto had all three work together seems to indicate they were all needed.



More like, since they were all there, it'd only make sense to have them all attack it. What sense would it make to just have one attack it and see if it works? None.



> I'm not arguing this, I'm in agreement that he was crippled, this lends itself to the idea Nagato was not at full strength and had limited mobility.  The Nagato we saw fight Hanzo has clearly superior mobility along with access to Gedo Mazo.  So yes, we're in agreement that Nagato was not at full strength.



Yes, but this would not be a problem with regular use and training of his body. He was able to repair the muscle deterioration his body had suffered. His muscles just weren't used to moving.

That was when Gedo Mazo was first awakened, before Nagato hooked himself up to it and worked on developing his powerful Jutsu in exchange for not working on his physical ability.

Nagato wasn't at full strength the same way Itachi isn't for having a 2.5/5 in stamina. Nagato has a 1/5 in physical movement. Itachi is just superior with it than Nagato, because Itachi's fighting style relied on moving a lot, and Nagato fought through Pein, which required none at all.

It would be akin to saying that Hinata only lost to Neji because she wasn't trained as much in Jyuuken as he was. This is a given, but not an excuse to say she should be > Neji.

Basically, yes, Nagato was not at full strength. No ninja is unless they are perfect at everything.



> He got in the depleted state after bringing everyone back to life.  He has some chakra but clearly he's not at his max.



He had to have had massive chakra, or at least a fair amount, to do this.



> Where was this said?  Its clear Nagato could have either absorbed amaterasu or shinra tensei'd it way earlier, he didn't because Kabuto wasn't listening.  Specific techniques seem to need Kabuto's command.  Even if it wasn't, Nagato has shown the ability to grow machine arms with Asura path.



Sure he could. No one is arguing he does not have the power to do those things, since we saw him repel it later.

It's the ability to react fast enough that's in question. You don't see Amaterasu coming, because it's not a projectile. You can't judge when it's gonna hit, and when to use your counters.



> We've seen hardly any damage done with amaterasu to both Bee and Karin, 5 seconds should be fine.



That was Sasuke's Amaterasu, and it burned Hachibi, a massive mass of chakra, pretty quickly.

Against the fire-tolerant toad stomach and Sasuke though, it didn't take so long to burn. It seems to depend on focus.



> He knew its weakness after he saw it being surrounded by debris, he can't know it has a gravitational pull until its covered already.  And you say I'm not reading the manga:rofl



Um... no. Knowledge of the gravitational pull let Itachi know you don't have to aim at it to hit it. That knowledge has no bearing on the core itself being susceptible to attack.



> No what I was saying was someone who has the power of the uchiha and senju and who is the reincarnation of the strongest character should logically be more powerful than an Uchiha who isn't even the epitome of the clan (EMS would be).



Nagato wasn't, though. The Rin'negan is only half of the Sage's eyes. The Sharingan is the other half, so by extension one could say any Sharingan user is his reincarnation. Nagato only had some of his power. It was power he was given by Madara, which doesn't make Nagato a reincarnation, because he'd have to have been born with those eyes, going by the definition or reincarnation. He was just a kid who Madara gave the eyes and powers to.



> We don't know the details of this whatsoever, as of now its all speculation what Madara did, we know he had a hand in it but we don't know if he literally threw some eyes in Nagato.  *When I say reincarnation I don't mean it literally.*



I see now. Though in regards to Madara, he said those eyes were his to begin with, and that he gave them to Nagato (mostly likely unknowingly to Nagato). We know he wasn't born with them.



> I only post here when I'm bored in class or I'm doing homework, however I wasn't criticizing you posting here, it was a comment on Itachi fans literally creating a religion....



I don't post here that often in general. Maybe a 3-4 hour window, but that's it.

I'll admit that some treat Itachi like a god. We do in the FC, but power-wise, he's top tier. Able to fight with the best of them, but none of them are gods either. They're all ninja, with different strengths, weaknesses, and different kinds of hax abilities and skills. Nagato has the most haxed abilities while Itachi has the most haxed intelligence and skill. The type of god I see Itachi as is a "god of ninja", meaning a most true ninja, not a god among ninja. It's how many others I know see him as well.

We don't think Itachi rapes the Narutoverse with Susano'o, though if Itachi had Nagato's stamina (and EMS for measure), and if Nagato had Itachi's physical ability and intelligence, the two could probably take down the Edo army together. It'd be too deadly of a combination, and both have means of sealing/removing the Edo's souls. I think that's why Kishi wrote one of them off. The two of them together would probably have been too much.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 29, 2011)

This is just becoming silly...it was a 3 on 1. 
Nothing about it was vaguely a solo...if anything it is indicative of Nagato being more powerful...how are people spinning such crap?


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## Mongolia (Sep 29, 2011)

Black☆Star said:


> How the hell did he solo when he had Naruto and Bee there to help him ?
> 
> Seriously, stop riding Itachi's dick for a minute and be rational



How did Naruto and Bee help him? Last time I remember Naruto and Bee attacked Itachi but because of their lack of taijutsu Itachi just played them off and jumped back.

That's what the messiah does, solo'ing. No way denying it bro.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

Jυstin said:
			
		

> The comment though was made in response to Nagato furiously asking Itachi what he did regarding the crow, then he was like, "Oh, I see what you did.".



"furiously" how do you figure that?

And i don't remeber arguing that it wasn't about the crow.The important thing is *when* Nagato figured out that Itachi was free of Edo Tensei's control thanks to it.And *when* was right after Itachi's stare..



> They had their mind intact, but it was said they couldn't move on their own. Kabuto only mentioned allowing their personalities and minds to remain, but he was still giving their other orders.



You mean they couldn't make a move that disobeys Kabuto's orders?Like attacking their fellow Edos?

Still, some Edos found a way around that like Hanzo.He couldn't stop fighting all together but he got away on technicality.When he stabbed himself he was still making a move against his opponent (as it released a huge level of poison that would kill anyone around him.. but his opponents were wearing masks..)and it paralyzed him so he can be sealed..

And wasn't it Itachi's choice to use MS when he did?



> It's the ability to react fast enough that's in question. You don't see Amaterasu coming, because it's not a projectile.* You can't judge when it's gonna hit, and when to use your counters.*



Nagato doesn't need perfect timing to counter with anything except Shinra Tensei.Nagato can activate Preta's sphere before the attack even hits (like Preta has done in the past) or just summon something to shield himself (again before the attack hits) as soon as he senses it coming.




> That was when Gedo Mazo was first awakened, before Nagato hooked himself up to it and worked on developing his powerful Jutsu in exchange for not working on his physical ability.



"in exchange" who says that?Nagato was mobile prior to Gedo Mazo.And he still would be if he didn't need to stay hooked for Akatsuki's goals.He didn't need to give up his mobility so he can become more powerful.He might not have improved in that area much but at least he could've continued moving without problems.



> Nagato wasn't at full strength the same way Itachi isn't for having a 2.5/5 in stamina. Nagato has a 1/5 in physical movement. Itachi is just superior with it than Nagato, because Itachi's fighting style relied on moving a lot, and Nagato fought through Pein, which required none at all.



Except the reason wasn't Pein.The reason was that Nagato had to stay synced with Gedo Mazo.

And it's not just that Itachi's better when it comes to movement.It's that Nagato sucks at it.



> It would be akin to saying that Hinata only lost to Neji because she wasn't trained as much in Jyuuken as he was. This is a given, but not an excuse to say she should be > Neji.



Except noone says that.None account her loss to that.Kishi on the other hand accounts Nagato's loss to his mobility.

And it's not because Nagato didn't train hard enough.He had proper mobility at one point.ANd he still would've had it if it wasn't required of him to stay synced.



> Basically, yes, Nagato was not at full strength. No ninja is unless they are perfect at everything.



Who says that Nagato has to be perfect at everything?None says that he has to have 5/5 in speed/taijutsu.Just not suck at it.

And Sasuke has above average stamina and speed and taijutsu, EMS and hax jutsus.

Naruto has Bijuu-stamina, hax speed, hax jutsus, hax strength.

Nagato has?Bijuu-stamina, hax jutsus, mobility problems.. And yes, yes.. Nagato's jutsu's so hax it barely requires movement until he meets another haxer.. Neither does Sasuke with his EMS and neither does Naruto with his KB.


----------



## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

*Nagato can sense amaterasu... So why*

Why do people always use that incident in a desperate attempt to try and  "justify" their crazy theory that itachi > nagato?

We have already witnessed nagatos incredible ability to sense chakra both when he sensed naruto from a distance and when he predicted itachis use of amaterasu the first time..

He could have dodged it but he had absolutely no reason to. 

Finally I'm not gonna get into the whole nagato > itachi. But people need to stop arguing that a non controlled nagato would have fought using the same strategy... 

Nagato was controlled... Have people forgotten his battle strategy when facing jiraiya? Nagato is on the same level of intelligence as itachi..

Why did kishi feel the need to handicap even a "complete" nagato... Simple because if he hadn't then itachi naruto and bee would be sealed inside gedo and kishi would be working on his new manga as of now


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## jimbob631 (Sep 29, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> And having his hands full with them doesn't mean he would be distracted.
> 
> How hard is it for _you_ to understand? Bee could not surprise attack Nagato even while Nagato was busy with Naruto, because his summons' shared vision were keeping watch.
> 
> Nagato wasn't caught off guard by Susano'o because his hands were full. He was caught off guard because Itachi incapacitated his shared vision.



Haha your the one who doesn't get it.  I perfectly understand Itachi got Nagato like that because he took care of the share vision, if he didn't have Naruto and Bee in his hands he would have been able to notice when Itachi was attacking with shuriken, he didn't because he had two jinchuriki in his hands.  What don't you get about that?  





Jυstin said:


> More like, since they were all there, it'd only make sense to have them all attack it. What sense would it make to just have one attack it and see if it works? None.



We're gonna disagree on this one, we've seen the strength of CT though which tanked Naruto's bijuudama when he had 6 tails.  

Sasuke

It didn't no damage, seems to indicate a bijuudama by itself wasn't even enough, and even if its weaker than Bee's (which is possible) doing no damage at all proves CT is crazy strong and likely needed all three attacks to overtake it.  





Jυstin said:


> It would be akin to saying that Hinata only lost to Neji because she wasn't trained as much in Jyuuken as he was. This is a given, but not an excuse to say she should be > Neji.



No it wouldn't because Hinata never had mastery of Jyuuken while Nagato at one point had at the very least average mobility.  






Jυstin said:


> He had to have had massive chakra, or at least a fair amount, to do this.



Doesn't mean he wasn't low (for him) on chakra.  



Jυstin said:


> It's the ability to react fast enough that's in question. You don't see Amaterasu coming, because it's not a projectile. You can't judge when it's gonna hit, and when to use your counters.



Once it hits he can immediately get rid of it with shinra tensei, at most he'll need a 5 second recharge, if an arm or leg gets burned off he can use asura path to grow new ones.  Its really very simple.  





Jυstin said:


> Um... no. Knowledge of the gravitational pull let Itachi know you don't have to aim at it to hit it. That knowledge has no bearing on the core itself being susceptible to attack.



lol you really don't get it.  CT starts working instantly, once Itachi sees what it is its already going to be covered in rock, at that point its hard to hit and Itachi has to figure out its weakness.  Itachi would've just attacked in the first place if this wasn't the case.  





Jυstin said:


> Nagato wasn't, though. The Rin'negan is only half of the Sage's eyes. The Sharingan is the other half, so by extension one could say any Sharingan user is his reincarnation. Nagato only had some of his power. It was power he was given by Madara, which doesn't make Nagato a reincarnation, because he'd have to have been born with those eyes, going by the definition or reincarnation. He was just a kid who Madara gave the eyes and powers to.



How is the sharingan the other half?  We've never seen the Sage with the sharingan.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Sep 29, 2011)

Huh? Nagato isn't a sensor.


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## Jυstin (Sep 29, 2011)

> "furiously" how do you figure that?
> 
> And i don't remeber arguing that it wasn't about the crow.The important thing is when Nagato figured out that Itachi was free of Edo Tensei's control thanks to it.And when was right after Itachi's stare..



It was indicated by the "?!" rather than just a "?".

Itachi was also talking too. Looking back and saying, "... it worked.", when Nagato responded, as if the two were communicating.

I like Nagato's face when the fire forms on him. It looks like he's going "Huh?".



> You mean they couldn't make a move that disobeys Kabuto's orders?Like attacking their fellow Edos?
> 
> Still, some Edos found a way around that like Hanzo.He couldn't stop fighting all together but he got away on technicality.When he stabbed himself he was still making a move against his opponent (as it released a huge level of poison that would kill anyone around him.. but his opponents were wearing masks..)and it paralyzed him so he can be sealed..
> 
> And wasn't it Itachi's choice to use MS when he did?



No. I mean like they couldn't move without his command.

Kabuto commented on this as well, how Hanzou was able to fight his control. This is against Kabuto's control, and when it happens with the few it happens with, he implements complete control over them.

It wasn't Itachi's choice to use the MS he was about to use on Naruto before the crow came out. I'm sure if Itachi had a choice of what attack to use on Naruto, it wouldn't be _that_ one.



> Nagato doesn't need perfect timing to counter with anything except Shinra Tensei.Nagato can activate Preta's sphere before the attack even hits (like Preta has done in the past) or just summon something to shield himself (again before the attack hits) as soon as he senses it coming.



Apparently it's not that useful vs Amaterasu then. It wouldn't make contact with the sphere surrounding Nagato. it would bypass it and appear right on Nagato.



> Except the reason wasn't Pein.The reason was that Nagato had to stay synced with Gedo Mazo.
> 
> And it's not just that Itachi's better when it comes to movement.It's that Nagato sucks at it.



Pein was one of the reasons, though not directly. He was using Pein because he wasn't moving around, so it's more the other way around.

Well yeah. When one person is worse at something, it usually means the other is better...



> Who says that Nagato has to be perfect at everything?None says that he has to have 5/5 in speed/taijutsu.Just not suck at it.
> 
> And Sasuke has above average stamina and speed and taijutsu, EMS and hax jutsus.
> 
> ...



That's the point I was making, actually. Nagato isn't at full strength because his physique isn't at its tip top shape. Just like Itachi isn't at his full strength because his stamina isn't at its fullest, and he doesn't have a perfect Mangekyou. No shinobi would be at full strength unless they were perfect in everything. There's always something they can improve on, become better at. Mobility/physical state was one of Nagato's.



jimbob631 said:


> Haha your the one who doesn't get it.  I perfectly understand Itachi got Nagato like that because he took care of the share vision, if he didn't have Naruto and Bee in his hands he would have been able to notice when Itachi was attacking with shuriken, he didn't because he had two jinchuriki in his hands.  What don't you get about that?



No, he wouldn't have. That's why Kabuto made the point that Itachi attacked from the shared vision's blind spots. They didn't see the attack coming. Nagato wouldn't have been the one to react. The summons would have, by avoiding the pointy sharp objects flying toward their pupils.



> We're gonna disagree on this one, we've seen the strength of CT though which tanked Naruto's bijuudama when he had 6 tails.
> 
> this
> 
> It didn't no damage, seems to indicate a bijuudama by itself wasn't even enough, and even if its weaker than Bee's (which is possible) doing no damage at all proves CT is crazy strong and likely needed all three attacks to overtake it.



No, I agree with you completely. Though, look at the size of that Chibaku Tensei. The one Itachi and friends attacked hadn't had that amount of time to build in size and density. If given enough time, it would be harder to bust apart.



> No it wouldn't because Hinata never had mastery of Jyuuken while Nagato at one point had at the very least average mobility.



It's akin to Hinata's Jyuuken in the fact that both are a skill that can be improved with regular use and training, and can also be lost with lack of use. Skills can be learned/obtained and forgotten/lost depending on how often they're practiced and used.



> Doesn't mean he wasn't low (for him) on chakra.



Which doesn't equate to being too low to do anything. He was perfectly fine using 2 Shinra Tensei, one of them being very large.



> Once it hits he can immediately get rid of it with shinra tensei, at most he'll need a 5 second recharge, if an arm or leg gets burned off he can use asura path to grow new ones.  Its really very simple.



Those new limbs aren't the same as his original ones. They're mechanical extensions. We haven't seen them regenerate lost limbs. Edo Tensei's regeneration had to take care of that.

Nagato could repel the flames once the shock value wears off, not to mention the shock from pain. It'll still do considerable damage even given a short time. Then again, if Itachi's still focusing on Nagato with Amaterasu, repelling it won't do a thing.



> lol you really don't get it.  CT starts working instantly, once Itachi sees what it is its already going to be covered in rock, at that point its hard to hit and Itachi has to figure out its weakness.  Itachi would've just attacked in the first place if this wasn't the case.



No it doesn't. It was sent up into the air first. It was an uncovered black sphere for a little bit. Figuring out its weakness is no problem as Itachi had already done it, because he saw the black sphere before it started taking in all that debris.



> How is the sharingan the other half?  We've never seen the Sage with the sharingan.



The Sage was shown having a combination of the Sharingan and the Rin'negan. Remember that Rin'negan with like 9 tomoe in it?

It's commonly called the Shar'rinegan.


----------



## Black☆Star (Sep 29, 2011)

Pok?mon said:


> How did Naruto and Bee help him? Last time I remember Naruto and Bee attacked Itachi but because of their lack of taijutsu Itachi just played them off and jumped back.



That's when Itachi was controlled by Kabuto 

I'm talking about when Itachi broke free and joined Naruto's party to gang on Nagato 



> That's what the messiah does, solo'ing. No way denying it bro.



Fapping too much to Itachi has blinded you from seeing the truth


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## jimbob631 (Sep 29, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> No, he wouldn't have. That's why Kabuto made the point that Itachi attacked from the shared vision's blind spots. They didn't see the attack coming. Nagato wouldn't have been the one to react. The summons would have, by avoiding the pointy sharp objects flying toward their pupils.



I understand what your saying about the blind spots but if Nagato didn't have two Jinchuriki in his hands he wouldn't be standing there doing nothing.  Thats the point I'm trying to make he would be summoning more summons or starting up CT.  Itachi was given an opportunity to analyze the situation because of Naruto and Bee.  Itachi would likely not even know about the shared vision until he saw Bee getting viewed by it.  Without that Nagato doesn't lose an arm.  





Jυstin said:


> No, I agree with you completely. Though, look at the size of that Chibaku Tensei. The one Itachi and friends attacked hadn't had that amount of time to build in size and density. If given enough time, it would be harder to bust apart.



The same amount of time in the manga passes for both, around three pages, if any of them is less time its the first as the second CT  they have a whole conversation.  The second one is also likely stronger seeing as it was indicated Nagato himself had stronger jutsu than through his proxies.  




Jυstin said:


> It's akin to Hinata's Jyuuken in the fact that both are a skill that can be improved with regular use and training, and can also be lost with lack of use. Skills can be learned/obtained and forgotten/lost depending on how often they're practiced and used.



Again its not, Hinata never was great with Jyuuken, Nagato was at one point someone with at least decent mobility.





Jυstin said:


> Which doesn't equate to being too low to do anything. He was perfectly fine using 2 Shinra Tensei, one of them being very large.



It still doesn't mean he's at full chakra capacity or strength.  



Jυstin said:


> Those new limbs aren't the same as his original ones. They're mechanical extensions. We haven't seen them regenerate lost limbs. Edo Tensei's regeneration had to take care of that.



No but there probably just as good if not a ton better seeing as there metal, I haven't noticed Nagato using seals for his jutsu except for summoning so arms don't really matter much.  



Jυstin said:


> Nagato could repel the flames once the shock value wears off, not to mention the shock from pain. It'll still do considerable damage even given a short time. Then again, if Itachi's still focusing on Nagato with Amaterasu, repelling it won't do a thing.



It might do some, he can also just absorb it though.  



Jυstin said:


> No it doesn't. It was sent up into the air first. It was an uncovered black sphere for a little bit. Figuring out its weakness is no problem as Itachi had already done it, because he saw the black sphere before it started taking in all that debris.



The time it would take for Itachi to use his technique would be enough for it to already be full of debris.  Go back and look at the manga, it does it in literally a panel, and we've already seen how strong attacks do against CT.  



Jυstin said:


> The Sage was shown having a combination of the Sharingan and the Rin'negan. Remember that Rin'negan with like 9 tomoe in it?
> 
> 
> It's commonly called the Shar'rinegan.



Sage was never shown with this the Juubi was.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> Itachi was also talking too. Looking back and saying, "... it worked.", when Nagato responded, as if the two were communicating.



"It worked" is not enough for Nagato to figure it out.Itachi staring him like that on the other hand..



> I like Nagato's face when the fire forms on him. It looks like he's going "Huh?".



It may look like it to you.To me it just looks like he isn't having the best of times.Amaterasu isn't a pleasant experience.When there's a "Huh?" moment there's actually a "Huh?", "Oh, shit!" or at the very least "!!" (like the two times Itachi surprised him with Susano.)



> Kabuto commented on this as well, how Hanzou was able to fight his control. This is against Kabuto's control, and when it happens with the few it happens with, he implements complete control over them.



Kabuto: *He's contradicting the orders from my talisman?!*

But Kabuto didn't realize that by stabbing himself, Hanzo would technically be attacking his enemy as well.



> It wasn't Itachi's choice to use the MS he was about to use on Naruto before the crow came out. I'm sure if Itachi had a choice of what attack to use on Naruto, it wouldn't be that one.



I guess..



> It wouldn't make contact with the sphere surrounding Nagato. it would bypass it and appear right on Nagato.



And it will start to get absorbed.Besides, there's still summoning something to be in Amaterasu's way instead of Nagato.



> That's the point I was making, actually. Nagato isn't at full strength because his physique isn't at its tip top shape. Just like Itachi isn't at his full strength because his stamina isn't at its fullest, and he doesn't have a perfect Mangekyou. No shinobi would be at full strength unless they were perfect in everything. There's always something they can improve on, become better at. Mobility/physical state was one of Nagato's.



But.. Nagato doesn't have to be perfect at everything to have proper mobility  Is Naruto perfect at everything just because he has Bijuu-stamina and hax jutsus like Nagato and on top of that hax speed and strength?

Nobody's talking about Nagato improving and having above average speed or anything.Just the normal mobility he already had.You don't have to be perfect for that.


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## boohead (Sep 29, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> This is just becoming silly...it was a 3 on 1.
> Nothing about it was vaguely a solo...if anything it is indicative of Nagato being more powerful...how are people spinning such crap?



If there is one thing this thread proves, fanboys with horribly made Itachi sigs can spew fanfiction as canon and spin like there's no tomarrow.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 29, 2011)

Question: In the battle that pit Uchiha Itachi, and Nagato against Uzamaki Naruto and Killer B, and later Uchiha Itachi, Uzamaki Naruto, and Killer B against Nagato - which character went unscathed the entire battle?

Answer: Uchiha Itachi

Question: Why?

Answer: If I had to guess, I would say the author preferred that Itachi not get hit.

Question: In the battle against Nagato, which characters were able to successfully land a blow?

Answer: Only Uchiha Itachi was able to land a blow on Nagato. He also delivered the killing blow twice, though the summon, Yakushi Kabuto, managed to revive him the first time.

Question: Where does Nagato reside now?

Answer: Within the blissful confines of Itachi's liquor bottle. 

---

I don't know, man...

...seems like Itachi was kind of pwnsome to me. Just my opinion, though. 

What Itachi is being penalized for is being intelligent enough to use the circumstances of the battle to his advantage. Where some shinobi prefer to rush in, Itachi prefers to read the situation and act accordingly.

This is largely what makes him great.


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## Mongolia (Sep 29, 2011)




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## jimbob631 (Sep 29, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> Question: In the battle that pit Uchiha Itachi, and Nagato against Uzamaki Naruto and Killer B, and later Uchiha Itachi, Uzamaki Naruto, and Killer B against Nagato - which character went unscathed the entire battle?
> 
> Answer: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...




Question: In the battle that pit Uchiha Itachi, and Nagato against Uzamaki Naruto and Killer B, and later Uchiha Itachi, Uzamaki Naruto, and Killer B against Nagato - who saved Itachi from getting scratched?

Nagato by deflecting Bee's sword and later Naruto and Bee by distracting Nagato.  

Question: In the battle against Nagato, how many people fought Nagato and how many of them were top tier?

3, seems to me the author wanted to portray Nagato as superior by having him fight 3 of the strongest shinobi in the manga.  Also notice that each represents a certain aspect of the Sage of Six Paths power, Itachi (uchiha), Bee (jinchuriki), and Naruto (senju and jinchuriki).  Seems kinda symbolic if you ask me.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 29, 2011)

Nagato in a weaker state then seen recently eradicated Konoha...are you people seriously suggesting Itachi could do that?!?
People who mention Itachi catching him, he did because Nagato was busy decking the other two. clue. If Itachi could solo him why use underhanded tactics and hit him from behind while he is fighting two others? Why risk the others if he can just solo?
clue.
"If *WE *destroy it"
"Let's *ALL *hit it at once with our strongest long-range attacks"
He needed them, his wording shows this, yes he formulated a plan to beat it but his own statement conveys how he couldn't do it alone. How the hell does we/all equate to a solo...delusional much
And too that guy who used databook stats to big up Itachi...yeah his are the joint highest with Jiraiya...but who fodderised Jiraiya?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Nagato can't soul rip a non fodder based on what? It was specifically indicated by B that the experience Naruto gained through his tug of war with the Kyuubi would help him against Soul Rip, we also see Naruto making use of his own physical strength and kyuubi chakra claws to keep hold of his soul. There are few people that are going to have experience with this type of thing like Naruto and there are few people who are going to have Naruto's + Kyuubi chakra claw's physical strength to tug of war with, so Naruto is one of the people best equipped to resist Human Path.


The tug of war didn't begin immediately though. For some reason, Naruto's soul was coming out slowly. Link removed
only here Naruto realizes that he is being soul ripped and he grabs onto it : 
Link removed

Seriously man, it was part of the suspense. 

Imagine a scenario where Nagato grabs a hold of the soul and gets one shot by Itachi immediately.
It would be no fun.
Try to think from the authors perspective a bit.



> Also if your saying that the reason Nagato couldn't instantly soul rip Naruto is because Naruto isn't a fodder like Shizune your already admitting it's about "level" therefore your actually proving yourself wrong.


Thats not what I am saying. Fodder means expandable. Doesn't have much to do with level.
For example, if it was shilkamaru, he wouldn't be insta soul ripped.



> And if Itachi was forced to attack sooner he wouldn't have had time to gather knowledge on Nagato's abilities like Shared vision and wouldn't have been able to perform such an effective ambush


He'd prevent the soul rip regardless.



> Actually I can know how much of the Asura path's power Nagato would use on someone he felt was weak, since I can look at how Nagato utilized the Asura Pain and he used rocket fist, his knife life weapons, or missiles rather than binding an enemy and pulling out Asura Path's strongest attack [the lazer].



Sure, he had options. Although the way he chose to deal with Bee doesn't contribute to the distraction one bit. So its irrelevant.
If you think Bee only served the purpose of revealing the shared vision for Itachi, the second he was grabbed he fullfilled his purpose.
Again, his level had absolutey nothing to do with it.




> Maybe he could and maybe he couldn't, but it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


It is actually. Like I said the skillset of the people causing the distraction was hardly an issue. Itachi could have created a similar scenario with kagebunshins. 



> Because the third treasure is the Ksunagi sword which is identical to Orochimaru's and the Ksunagi sword in myth is said to have been found in the tail of Yamata no Orochi.
> 
> I realize that, however you said because Yata Magatama is one of the 3 treasures it should be as strong/hax as Yata Mirror, which I pointed out is false.


I meant the treasures that belong to Susano'o. I don't know the details of the mythology. 



> I realize their applications would be different, but my problem remains the same it is nonsensical for a Stage 3 Susano'o attack to be = to a Stage 4 Susano'o attack, when we were shown a very clear progression in which Susano'o's offensive might increases as it goes up in stages.


Yata no kagami can also be used in stage 3 and its pretty haxxed.
Even if magatama is on that level, that still would put him above the average susano'o arrow don't you think ? 


> No it makes no sense to automatically assume that all Susano'o's items are identical in strength. Are all Rikudo sannin's legendary items equal in strength, no they are not. The Seven Star Sword, Rope of Clarity, and Crimson Gourd would all be nearly useless individually and far weaker than the Amber Sealing Pot or the Banna Fan.


Ok talking about sense, how did you come to the conclusion that it is roughly around the same level with a susano'o arrow ? 

Its a named item. Like Yata no Kagami or totsuka. And it is revealed after them. It makes no sense for it to be alot weaker.
It may not be as powerful as Totsuka, but still, why alot weaker ? Might be slightly weaker for all we know.
But the fact that they are legendary artifacts that complete a 3 set, I'd expect them to be in the same ballpark, more or less. That makes alot more sense than your 'belief' that it is alot weaker than the rest.




> CT has the durability feat of being able to tank multiple huge boulders and the weight of thousands of pounds being compacted into it, which even you said made it very durable. We've already been through this.


Yes but it was never hit outright by an attack. So there is nothing to compare it to.
We know it is supposed to be durable, just like we know that Yasaka's magatama is supposed to be powerful.



> Which I already said in my original post. My pain point was, if we don't know what would have happened why I am I seeing Itachi fans use this fight to prove Itachi > or = to Nagato, when at the same time they are admitting that they don't even know if Itachi could have countered CT by himself. I just don't get it.



I agreed to it. It would depend on the circumstances. And we don't know for sure if Yasaka's magatama could have handled CT on his own or not. 

My response is mainly to people who undermine this battle, who think Itachi didn't have a chance on his own.


But from what we have seen, Itachi took down Nagato multiple times, with help or not, he didn't break a sweat. He was calm and confident through out the whole battle, contrary to everyone around him.

And in the end, Nagato apologized to Itachi, specifically. 
He didn't say "Sorry everyone for the trouble I caused."
It was a remark directed at Itachi which makes me believe that the author wanted to emphasize that this was a battle mainly between Itachi and Nagato. 
It is very clear.




> In my opinion it is less reasonable because CT actually has very impressive durability feats, while Yata Magatama has zero feats.


Zero feat in the sense that it played a part in CT's destruction. So it has feats. We don't know how much exactly. But isn't the same problem with CT ? 

It didn't tank any attacks head on so far.



> I mean think about it from another perspective here. Let's say for instance that it was Nagato, Naruto, and B vs Itachi and Nagato asked B and Naruto to  uses their strongest attacks with him while he used a total unseen attack and together they succeed in shattering the Yata Mirror. Are you going to say that its equally likely Nagato could have shattered the Yata Mirror on his own? I really, really doubt that.



It is not the same, since I believe CT it self isn't as durable as the shield of Yata. The shit gets stronger however as it attracks more boulders and debris, making a compact sphere.
My only argument is that Itachi could have most likely destroyed it in the earlier stages of its formation.

But I like I said, the safest bet is to assume that we simply don't know.
So I guess, It would be the stance I'd take if it was Itachi whose jutsu was countered.



> Or another example if Yata Magatama ends up busting a mountain during the Kabuto fight are you going to still say its equally likely that CT could withstand Yata Magatama by itself?



TBH, I'd probably say it wouldn't.

But again, it is hard to tell. Because there would be still unknown variables. 
We don't know for example if Ct could withstood all 3 attacks if one of them was slightly weaker. Or whether the 3 attacks were overkill or not.

If those 3 attacks barely took it down, then I'd probably say that it would depend on the size of the mountain that Magatama brought down.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 29, 2011)

> My point being that If one of Itachi's Jutsu has good durability/offense feats and another person's Jutsu had zero feats you would not be in here saying the chances are equal. The only reason you are in here saying the chances are equal is because Itachi's on the other end of this equation with his Jutsu having no feats and we both know it.


 I get what you are saying. 

But I have 2 problems here, 1st is that CT doesn't have good durability feats because it never tanked an attack before. 
You can only say that it is supposed to have good durability, but we have no idea about its upper or lower limits.

Also Magatama contributed to the destruction of CT, we simply don't know the amount of that contribution. So it isn't featless.

Actually, they seem to be in the same boat to me.




> The theme was that one needs to rely on their companions otherwise they are likely to fail, yet Kishi wanted us to draw from this battle that Itachi would likely succeed w/o his companions. Don't you get that, that totally undermines the theme LOL.



I know LOL, but we all agree that Naruto defeated Sandaime Raikage, whether he had help or not.

All I am saying is that, the help was minimal. Thats all. 



> Someone using their strongest Jutsu for someone else's sake in the middle of a battle is not minimal contribution. Again I feel like we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Itachi was on the other end of this, I.E. if Itachi had used Stage 4 Susano'o for B's or Naruto's plan I doubt you would be arguing that Itachi's contribution was minimal.



When you view the battle overall, I believe it to be minimal. Because Itachi did most of the work. 
Forget the intelligence parts(which we learned that is one of the most important aspects in a battle, look how people are praising Gaara for it), but he also went physical and landed hits on Nagato while Naruto and Bee couldn't.

You see, it is simple.

If Itachi wasn't there, Bee and Naruto would be dead, without even being able to put up a proper fight. They got stomped.

Without Bee and Naruto there, I'd still give Itachi chances of victory, and even if you think he'd fail, I doubt you think it would be as pathetic as Bee and Naruto.

Seriously, Itachi deserves some credit man. Bee and Naruto are no chumps and yet Itachi's contribution to victory is more than their contribution combined.



> But once again since Itachi is on the other end of the equation you are arguing that B's and Naruto's contribution were minimal in-order to make Itachi look better. Fact of the matter when someone uses their strongest Jutsu it's never minimal assistance.


But the author made Itachi look better.
Come on... It is there, re-read the chapters.
Itachi gets all the praise from Bee, Naruto, Nagato and Kabuto.
Who else got praise ? 



> So how much do you think Itachi believed he increased his odds of victory by, in-order to believe it was wise to waste this time allowing Ct to become more durable and Nagato to do whatever the hell he wanted?


Plot required him to explain the importance of calm demeanor to Naruto so that Naruto could use it in the future. Also the author wanted to insert a comic relief moment here and there.



> Because I'd say the only way Itachi would do that is if he felt B and Naruto helping him significantly increased his odds of countering CT.


If Itachi simply threw Yasaka's magatama into CT the moment Nagato tossed it, it would look as if Itachi did everything by himself.
I mean, it is also the most logical thing to do.
IF Itachi didn't know the limits of CT, why would he risk it ? 



> Figuring out Shared Vision - Speaks Towards Intelligence
> Effectively Ambushing Nagato - Again had more to do with Intelligence, since him figuring out shared vision was the key factor here


What about the way he disabled shared vision ? The shit he pulled with kunai ? Thats skill, in the most basic level.

How about Karatechopping Nagato and grabbing Bee and Naruto simultaneously and skidding through the battle field, making an epic entrance ?

I remember the times when people thought Itachi wouldn't be able to move around confortably with Susano'o. He made a fast dive in with that thing while perfectly controlling its actions.


> Yata Magatama - remains featless at the moment other than the assumption that its a formidable long range attack, which does speak towards his strength some what, but I'm assuming when we actually get feats from it in the Kabuto battle that is the battle which will speak more towards it's strength than this one


Yeah so... Btw, notice the speed of the attack, it went alongside with FRS and Bijuu dama. Which means it is pretty fast too.


> Totsuka Blitzing Nagato - who couldn't use any Jutsu after CT, didn't have shared vision, and is a crippled isn't really impressive in the slightest.



He couldn't use any jutsu after CT ? Who said that ? 
He simply couldn't react. Whether you attribute it to him gawking @ the nothingness which was CT a second ago or something else, he got blitzed and oneshot eitherway.
I remember people finding shitloads of excuse when he did the same to Orochimaru too.



> So yeah I'll stand by my statement that the battle speaks towards Itachi's intelligence and team leading capabilities more than anything else.


And I'll 


> If 3 people are involved in the fight than its 3v1, that's the facts. You can debate how helpful or necessary those people were in said fight, but it doesn't change the fact that the battle was 3v1.


Just like Kakashi vs Zabuza battle 



> As for the actual battle in question your saying i'm underestimating Itachi by calling the battle 3v1, but at the same time you stated that we don't know if Itachi could have overcome CT by himself, so how are B and Naruto who ensure Itachi's victory not an important part of this battle? Unless your just assuming Itachi 100% would have won w/o them, in which case your not even  going by your own word that we don't know if Itachi could or couldn't have overcome CT on his own.



You are underestimating him because you don't accept that Itachi did most of the work and pretending that all those 3 nins equally contributed to Nagato's defeat.

Then why did Nagato apologize to Itachi only ? 

Also, Itachi didn't break a fucking sweat. If Naruto and Bee weren't there, he would break a few, maybe.


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## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

I just want to know.. If itachi is greater than nagato, then why was nagato handicapped? Why was a "complete" nagato still immobile? Why would kishi do this?


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

It's funny Naruto defeated Mu in very similar fashion, but nobody for a second makes the claim Muu is stronger than RM Naruto.

If I am honest Itachi actually always had greater hype from those in the know than Pain.

Zetsu thought Itachi vs Sasuke was a higher level fight than Pain vs Naruto.
Zetsu even after seeing everything Pain had declared Itachi to be practically invincible when using Susano'o.
Pain struggled with one Sannin, whilst Itachi destroyed the other.
Zetsu regarded Itachi as having the strongest genjutsu and the strongest physical attack after seeing Pain's attacks.
Madara only ordered Pain to attack the Kyubi when he knew Itachi was shortly going to die.

Having said that Nagato was on a different level from Pain and healthy Nagato even stronger than the former.

Still as has been pointed out Itachi clearly came out on top. He never was touched, never was flustered and twice took out Nagato. He took out Nagato's strongest summon, which RM was failing to do.

If Naruto is regarded as stronger than Muu why not Itachi stronger than Nagato?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 29, 2011)

so stabbing a man with 0/5 in mobility (because he cant walk) is an amazing feat when you have to still stab him when hes not looking:amazed

ITACHI IS GOD <--- sarcasm


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> It's funny Naruto defeated Mu in very similar fashion, but nobody for a second makes the claim Muu is stronger than RM Naruto.
> 
> 
> 
> If Naruto is regarded as stronger than Muu why not Itachi stronger than Nagato?




Is this supposed to be a joke?


*Naruto just needed something to step on to defeat Mu.Naruto never struck Mu while he was distracted or had his hands full fighting someone else.He didn't have help destroying Mu's trump card or anything.

Mu had all his attention on Naruto and was preparing to finish him off.He didn't just stand there like an idiot (Nagato) not knowing what's happening because of a dust cloud clouding his vision after his best tech was destroyed through team work!*



> If I am honest Itachi actually always had greater hype from those in the know than Pain.
> 
> Zetsu thought Itachi vs Sasuke was a higher level fight than Pain vs Naruto.
> Zetsu even after seeing everything Pain had declared Itachi to be practically invincible when using Susano'o.
> ...



Zetsu also thought that Pein could never be defeated.

Tobi called Nagato invincible.

First of all, Jiraiya=/=Oro.Second, Pein did have trouble against Jiraiya but then again he started with one path, then 3 and finally six.And never needed to resort to trump cards.




> Still as has been pointed out Itachi clearly came out on top. He never was touched, never was flustered and twice took out Nagato. He took out Nagato's strongest summon, which RM was failing to do.



And as pointed out by me more than once:



畜生道 said:


> Once again ignoring that neither Naruto, Bee or Nagato were trying that hard against Itachi
> 
> Naruto and Bee never pulled the big guns against Itachi (rasengans, Hirashin like speed, Biju-damas, number 8s etc etc etc)Nagato pulled CT after completely ignoring Itachi for a good while and then Itachi had help dealing with it.So, what exactly is that impressive about Itachi not being hurt?(as far as we know.He was missing for awhile after ST..)
> 
> ...





> -Naruto and Bee got hurt and were about to get killed because Nagato used some of his best moves against them.And also because Naruto and Bee were dumbed down.Rushing ahead like idiots forgetting all about tactics and shit (and what jutsu Nagato is capable of using )..
> 
> -Nagato got hurt because Itachi took advantage of distractions and certain circumstances with his best moves.
> 
> ...


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Is this supposed to be a joke?


Naruto attacked Muu whilst he was being facing two other kages. Naruto then had Gaara use the sand to launch him back at Muu. Very, very similar situations.


> Naruto just needed something to step on to defeat Mu.Naruto never struck Mu while he was distracted or had his hands full fighting someone else.He didn't have help destroying Mu's trump card or anything.


He still attacked Muu, whilst he was distracted. How did Muu not have his hands full when he was about to attack Onoki? Do you have any proof Naruto could have formed a clone and used it to avoid the Jinton blast in time?


> Zetsu also thought that Pein could never be defeated.


He said he never thought Pain would be defeated when he attacked Konoha.


> Tobi called Nagato invincible.


Yes in a mocking tone.


> First of all, Jiraiya=/=Oro.Second, Pein did have trouble against Jiraiya but then again he started with one path, then 3 and finally six.And never needed to resort to trump cards.


Itachi did not resort to trump cards to beat Orochimaru the first time either he used a kunai and genjutsu.

Kishimoto disagrees with you. He has said several times the Sannin are on the same level. Ebisu has said the same thing, Kakashi hinted the same thing and Jiraiya's defeats to Orochimaru back it up.




And as pointed out by me more than once:[/QUOTE]


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> Naruto attacked Muu whilst he was being facing two other kages. Naruto then had Gaara use the sand to launch him back at Muu. Very, very similar situations.
> 
> 
> He still attacked Muu, whilst he was distracted. How did Muu not have his hands full when he was about to attack Onoki?



And the distraction amounted to what exactly?Nadda, because Mu was a sensor.Nagato on the other hand needed shared vision.



> Do you have any proof Naruto could have formed a clone and used it to avoid the Jinton blast in time?



I guess i don't have.



> He said he never thought Pain would be defeated when he attacked Konoha.



Doesn't matter.I would think that Konoha, SM Naruto + army of frogs and the Kyuubi>Itachi, anyway.



> Yes in a mocking tone.



If you say so.



> Kishimoto disagrees with you. He has said several times the Sannin are on the same level. Ebisu has said the same thing, Kakashi hinted the same thing and Jiraiya's defeats to Orochimaru back it up.




Whatever you say.They still have different strengths, weaknesses and tactics.


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## CA182 (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> It's funny Naruto defeated Mu in very similar fashion, but nobody for a second makes the claim Muu is stronger than RM Naruto.
> 
> If I am honest Itachi actually always had greater hype from those in the know than Pain.
> 
> ...



......omg... You are reading the manga backwards, or have you deluded yourself that badly.

Itachi *died* in chapter 393. The Naruto vs Pain fight started in chapter 430...
So that's point 1 and 2 destroyed lets move on.



arednad said:


> 3)Pain struggled with one Sannin, whilst Itachi destroyed the other.



Pain fought Jiraiya, Itachi fought Orochimaru. Two very different people, it doesn't matter if they're ranked the same, you can't compare those battles... 

It'd be like me saying because Kiba beat a fodder Jounin it means he could beat Gai who's also a jounin. 

That's failed logic at it's finest 

Point 3 ruined.



arednad said:


> 4)Zetsu regarded Itachi as having the strongest genjutsu and the strongest physical attack* after seeing Pain's attacks.*



Once again the Pain vs Naruto fight happened after Itachi vs Sasuke, so your fanfiction is useless.



arednad said:


> 5)Madara only ordered Pain to attack the Kyubi *when he knew Itachi was shortly going to die.*



Edit - Ok checked this, this was right.  

If anything though this makes Itachi look weaker. The pre-Rinnegan Madara didn't even wait until he was dead to order an attack on Konoha. So much for him been scared of Itachi...



arednad said:


> If Naruto is regarded as stronger than Muu why not Itachi stronger than Nagato?



Because Onoki, Gaara and Naruto didn't all use their best long range jutsu at the same time to overcome one of Muu's jinton jutsu.

Or did I miss Muu's version of Chibaku Tensei?

Edit - I got ninja'd!


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

> Once again ignoring that neither Naruto, Bee or Nagato were trying that hard against Itachi


Where do you get this from? Naruto said he would not hold back against the Zombies, Bee used his new 8 sword style including Samehada. Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto and used his best jutsu. How is this not trying hard?


> Naruto and Bee never pulled the big guns against Itachi (rasengans, Hirashin like speed, Biju-damas, number 8s etc etc etc)Nagato pulled CT after completely ignoring Itachi for a good while and then Itachi had help dealing with it.So, what exactly is that impressive about Itachi not being hurt?(as far as we know.He was missing for awhile after ST..)


Bee tried his new 8 sword style and Itachi countered with a kunai. It is not like Itachi tried anything on Bee either. Naruto seemed fairly sure that Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu would end Bee. Itachi took out Nagato's strongest summon, despite Nagato telling Naruto he could not hurt it and he should take out the summoner. Itachi took out Nagato with Amateraus blast and later sealed him. That is impressive.


> Itachi was the only one, noone used serious power against (excluding CT against which he had Naru and Bee's help) and that's why he didn't even get a scratch..


Maybe it has something to do with Itachi being so good no one could use a technique on him.


> LOL, what?Characters like Naruto pull victories over characters that are obviously stronger than him, thanks to certain circumstances all the time.


No, Naruto was stronger than Kiba, stronger than Mizuki, stronger than Neji, he lost to Kabuto, was stronger than Kakuzu and managed to beat Pain not using killer intent. Naruto beats most of his opponents, because he is stronger than they are.


> -Naruto and Bee got hurt and were about to get killed because Nagato used some of his best moves against them.And also because Naruto and Bee were dumbed down.Rushing ahead like idiots forgetting all about tactics and shit (and what jutsu Nagato is capable of using )..


Bee tried the samething that Itachi did, he failed was captured and about to die. Itachi tried it was successful and wounded Nagato. The reason Nagato could use his best moves against them was, because they allowed it. Bee attacks Nagato and gets absorbed. Itachi attacks Nagato and notice his attacks are successful.


> -Nagato got hurt because Itachi took advantage of distractions and certain circumstances with his best moves.


Yeh Itachi is smart. Hence why he wins. Bee tried the same thing, but it did not go so well for him. Bee also tried to do something similar to Itachi, but he missed. Even you can notice a pattern is developing. When people try to sneak attack Itachi it does not work. When others try to sneak attack Nagato it fails. When Itachi does so he succeeds. 


> -Itachi didn't get hurt because when finally one of his opponents used a trump card against him, Naruto and Bee were there to help out.Other than that, Itachi never had to face an opponent going all out against him or the odds Nagato was stuck against.


You have no proof that Itachi could not have broken out of CT himself. Considering the strength of the other two imperial treasures he possess then it is going to be something very powerful. Not to mention he already demonstrated Amaterasu was more powerful the FRS.

You don't seem to realise Itachi was too good to be hit with attacks. This is precisely why he has not been hit by the enemy (except throwing the fight against Sasuke) in the entire manga. It is not luck he is just that skilled.


> Get it?Got it?Good.


Stop hating a character and accept what Kishimoto has shown.


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## Vice (Sep 29, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> Question: In the battle that pit Uchiha Itachi, and Nagato against Uzamaki Naruto and Killer B, and later Uchiha Itachi, Uzamaki Naruto, and Killer B against Nagato - which character went unscathed the entire battle?
> 
> Answer: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...



Because two of the characters in the fight eventually became his allies and the one character who wasn't couldn't fight back.



> Question: In the battle against Nagato, which characters were able to successfully land a blow?
> 
> Answer: Only Uchiha Itachi was able to land a blow on Nagato. He also delivered the killing blow twice, though the summon, Yakushi Kabuto, managed to revive him the first time.



Because Nagato was unable to fight back.



> Question: Where does Nagato reside now?
> 
> Answer: Within the blissful confines of Itachi's liquor bottle.



Because Nagato was unable to fight back.



> ---
> 
> I don't know, man...
> 
> ...seems like Itachi was kind of pwnsome to me. Just my opinion, though.



Of course, he's a Mary Sue.



> What Itachi is being penalized for is being intelligent enough to use the circumstances of the battle to his advantage. Where some shinobi prefer to rush in, Itachi prefers to read the situation and act accordingly.
> 
> This is largely what makes him great.



Nobody is arguing that Itachi wasn't intelligent in this battle, people are merely arguing the notion that some people came out of this battle thinking Itachi was stronger than Nagato or that Itachi could defeat CT by himself or that being the only guy on one side with a sealing technique somehow negates common sense.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

CA182 said:


> ......omg... You are reading the manga backwards, or have you deluded yourself that badly.
> 
> Itachi *died* in chapter 393. The Naruto vs Pain fight started in chapter 430...
> So that's point 1 and 2 destroyed lets move on.


No go and read the manga again. Pain questions Zetsu if he once to see him take on the Kyubi. Zetsu refuses and says he has a better fight to watch. Later during the Itachi vs Sasuke fight he confirms he made the right decision, because the fight is at such a high level. Zetsu knew about Pain and still considered Itachi's jutsu to be the best.


> Pain fought Jiraiya, Itachi fought Orochimaru. Two very different people, it doesn't matter if they're ranked the same, you can't compare those battles...


Yes you can the Sannin are all on the same level. Even Nagato confirms how they all have their special forms. Kishimoto says they Tsunade is at the same level as the other two. 


> It'd be like me saying because Kiba beat a fodder Jounin it means he could beat Gai who's also a jounin.


No it is like you saying Kiba beat Kakashi. Gai has been said several times to be on the same level as Kakashi. Therefore Kiba can probably beat Kakashi.


> That's failed logic at it's finest
> 
> Point 3 ruined.


No it is perfect logic. 


> arednad said:
> 
> 
> > 4)Zetsu regarded Itachi as having the strongest genjutsu and the strongest physical attack* after seeing Pain's attacks.*
> ...


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## T-Bag (Sep 29, 2011)

It's not impressive because itachi makes it look to ez. heuaheuhuehauehaha


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> And the distraction amounted to what exactly?Nadda, because Mu was a sensor.Nagato on the other hand needed shared vision.


Doesn't this say something about how great Itachi is? He attacks Nagato and takes out his shared vision. However, guess that is not impressive.


> I guess i don't have.


Then why are you not questioning if Naruto could beat Muu or not and making the same arguments about how Muu would have killed him with Jinton. Clear double standard.


> Doesn't matter.I would think that Konoha, SM Naruto + army of frogs and the Kyuubi>Itachi, anyway.


Yes due to Itachi having insufficient stamina to last that long. However, in a one on one fight, stamina is not an issue and Itachi becomes more dangerous.


> If you say so.


Go and read it and come to your own conclusion.


> Whatever you say.They still have different strengths, weaknesses and tactics.


Yes and match ups play a part, but at the the end of the day the sum total of their parts are roughly equal. In theory Orochimaru actually is a decent counter to Itachi. He is a master of genjutsu and one of the very few shinobi with a counter to Amaterasu. Itachi destroyed the Sannin he faced, Pain managed to win.


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## jplaya2023 (Sep 29, 2011)

IchLiebe said:


> so stabbing a man with 0/5 in mobility (because he cant walk) is an amazing feat when you have to still stab him when hes not looking:amazed
> 
> ITACHI IS GOD <--- sarcasm



sounds like you don't like canon.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> Stop hating a character and accept what Kishimoto has shown.



And i strongly suggest you do not waste my time with bullshit.



> Where do you get this from? Naruto said he would not hold back against the Zombies, Bee used his new 8 sword style including Samehada. Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto and used his best jutsu. How is this not trying hard?



Spoken like a person who doesn't know Naruto or Bee's arsenal very well.

Bee was just playing with Taka until they pissed him off and he got serious by going Hachibi.He didn't even try lesser shrouds against Itachi.

As i already said for Naruto: never used, rasengans, super shunshin, KB etc etc



> Maybe it has something to do with Itachi being so good no one could use a technique on him.



Or maybe it has something to do with him being ignored by Nagato/Kabuto until he intervened to save the Jins.

Maybe it has something to do with Bee and Naruto not using their trump cards.



> It is not like Itachi tried anything on Bee either.



And you are not hearing mer fapp to Bee for his impressive performance against Itachi, now do you?



> Naruto seemed fairly sure that Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu would end Bee.



Because Naruto knows that much about Bee?



> No, Naruto was stronger than Kiba, stronger than Mizuki, stronger than Neji, he lost to Kabuto, was stronger than Kakuzu and managed to beat Pain not using killer intent. Naruto beats most of his opponents, because he is stronger than they are.



He only defeated Kakuzu thanks to plot.He wasn't stronger than Pein (weaken or not).Even with all the tactics and tricks he still lost (Deva had him at his mercy prior to Kyuubi)



> Itachi took out Nagato's strongest summon, despite Nagato telling Naruto he could not hurt it and he should take out the summoner. Itachi took out Nagato with Amateraus blast and later sealed him. That is impressive.



Nagato's strongest summon is Gedo Mazo.

And don't consider Itachi hitting Nagato with Amatearsu when Nagato wasn't fighting him "impressive"



> Bee tried the samething that Itachi did, he failed was captured and about to die. Itachi tried it was successful and wounded Nagato. The reason Nagato could use his best moves against them was, because they allowed it. Bee attacks Nagato and gets absorbed. Itachi attacks Nagato and notice his attacks are successful.
> 
> Yeh Itachi is smart. Hence why he wins. Bee tried the same thing, but it did not go so well for him. Bee also tried to do something similar to Itachi, but he missed. Even you can notice a pattern is developing. When people try to sneak attack Itachi it does not work. When others try to sneak attack Nagato it fails. When Itachi does so he succeeds.



Did Bee take out the summons with a long range attack?Did he then wound Nagato with another mid-range attack?No, i do not thinks so.

Lets see Nagato forget all about Bee and how well the summons will fare if Bee tries to take them out with long-range attacks from some hiding spot.



> You have no proof that Itachi could not have broken out of CT himself. Considering the strength of the other two imperial treasures he possess then it is going to be something very powerful. Not to mention he already demonstrated Amaterasu was more powerful the FRS.



I never said i did.I only stated what happened in the manga.



> You don't seem to realise Itachi was too good to be hit with attacks. This is precisely why he has not been hit by the enemy (except throwing the fight against Sasuke) in the entire manga. It is not luck he is just that skilled.




Please, please spare me the wank


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

Vice said:


> Of course, he's a Mary Sue.



Nobody is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu in the manga of Naruto. None of the characters fit the definiton of one.

Not that it matters, anyway. TV Tropes is absolute garbage; it's just a website devoted to slandering everything, and casting it off as "unoriginal" or "trite."


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> Doesn't this say something about how great Itachi is? He attacks Nagato and takes out his shared vision. *However, guess that is not impressive.*



I never said it wasn't.





> Then why are you not questioning if Naruto could beat Muu or not and making the same arguments about how Muu would have killed him with Jinton. Clear double standard.



I guess for the same reason i don't question people believing that it's possible for Itachi to take out CT on his own without proof.

I believe Naruto could've taken out Mu without Gaara's sand.



> *Yes* due to Itachi having insufficient stamina to last that long. However, in a one on one fight, stamina is not an issue and Itachi becomes more dangerous.



Good that you agree.



> Go and read it and come to your own conclusion.



I already have.Prior to using that quote.



> Yes and match ups play a part, but at the the end of the day the sum total of their parts are roughly equal. In theory Orochimaru actually is a decent counter to Itachi. He is a master of genjutsu and one of the very few shinobi with a counter to Amaterasu. Itachi destroyed the Sannin he faced, Pain managed to win.



Im not gonna turn this topic into Jiraiya vs Itachi or addressing the circumstances that allowed Itachi to make Oro look like fodder so you are free to believe whatever you like.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The tug of war didn't begin immediately though. For some reason, Naruto's soul was coming out slowly. hollow
> only here Naruto realizes that he is being soul ripped and he grabs onto it :
> hollow


Yes and the reason the soul didn't come out instantly was because Naruto could resist the Jutsu better than a shinobi like Shizune, because he is a higher "level" than Shizune. So it is about levels. 



> Seriously man, it was part of the suspense.
> 
> Imagine a scenario where Nagato grabs a hold of the soul and gets one shot by Itachi immediately.
> It would be no fun.
> Try to think from the authors perspective a bit.


The author had B stated that Naruto has experience with this type of thing thanks to his tug of war with Kyuubi. So if anything I believe the author showed Naruto able to resist it to a certain extend and included that comment from B to foreshadow that Naruto will ultimately be able to resist it completely when he faces Madara, which again will be due to him becoming strong and more experienced, I.E. increasing his "level" even further.



> Thats not what I am saying. Fodder means expandable. Doesn't have much to do with level.


And if Naruto doesn't get instantly soul ripped because he is on higher "level" than fodder, it has to do with Naruto's "level"



> For example, if it was shilkamaru, he wouldn't be insta soul ripped.


Proof? Shizune is a Jonin who trained under Tsunade, she should logically be around Shikkamaru's "level" or above it, yet she still got instantly soul ripped. 



> He'd prevent the soul rip regardless.


Proof? This is just your opinion.



> Sure, he had options. Although the way he chose to deal with Bee doesn't contribute to the distraction one bit. So its irrelevant.
> If you think Bee only served the purpose of revealing the shared vision for Itachi, the second he was grabbed he fullfilled his purpose.
> Again, his level had absolutey nothing to do with it.


B fulfilled the purpose of exposing the shared vision for Itachi & occupying 1 Path Power and Nagato's other hand.



> It is actually. Like I said the skillset of the people causing the distraction was hardly an issue. Itachi could have created a similar scenario with kagebunshins.


Okay so assuming B and Naruto weren't there when Nagato ambushed with the Chameleon. Nagato would blast Itachi with ST and than he'd bind him with Chameleon and attack him with Human and/or Hungry Ghost Path. Itachi would be more concerned with defending himself rather than making any kind of Bushin.



> Yata no kagami can also be used in stage 3 and its pretty haxxed.
> Even if magatama is on that level, that still would put him above the average susano'o arrow don't you think ?


I always said it was above the average Susano'o arrow, I just don't think it's FAR above the average Susano'o arrow.



> Ok talking about sense, how did you come to the conclusion that it is roughly around the same level with a susano'o arrow ?


I already explained why I came to that conclusion, but i'll explain again. Yata Magatama is Itachi's Long Range Stage 3 Susano'o attack, the closest comparison we can draw is to Sasuke's own Long Range Stage 3 Susano'o attack. 

However ultimately this is just my opinion, there is nothing wrong with having your own opinion, but you can't use your opinion to debate how likely it is that Yata Magatama can bust CT, we need actual feats for that.



> Yes but it was never hit outright by an attack. So there is nothing to compare it to.
> We know it is supposed to be durable, just like we know that Yasaka's magatama is supposed to be powerful.


It was outright hit by boulders, it doesn't need to be hit by an attack, that is still a massive durability feat. Yata Magatama has 0 feats. 



> I agreed to it. It would depend on the circumstances. And we don't know for sure if Yasaka's magatama could have handled CT on his own or not.
> 
> My response is mainly to people who undermine this battle, who think Itachi didn't have a chance on his own.


I think people believe Nagato > Itachi based on things that do not have to do with the outcome of this battle. I think it has to do with Nagato having better feats, hype, and better Kekkai Genkai. At least that is why I believe Nagato > Itachi, not this battle.



> But from what we have seen, Itachi took down Nagato multiple times, with help or not, he didn't break a sweat. He was calm and confident through out the whole battle, contrary to everyone around him.


Itachi was not keeping his cool because of confidence, he was keeping his cool so he could analyze the situation properly. He even says as much in the manga:
hollow

So if anything Itachi being so clam shows how much respect he had for his opponent since he needed to be totally focused on the battle. When it comes to not breaking a sweat it's pretty easy to do that when your a zombie, if Itachi wasn't a zombie he'd be in bad shape by the end of the battle after using Amaterasu twice and Stage 4 Susano'o.

With that said Itachi was the definitely the man in charge and came off better than B or Naruto in this fight, but I just don't think those are the reasons why.



> And in the end, Nagato apologized to Itachi, specifically.
> He didn't say "Sorry everyone for the trouble I caused."
> It was a remark directed at Itachi which makes me believe that the author wanted to emphasize that this was a battle mainly between Itachi and Nagato.
> It is very clear.


This is a totally futile point to make since there is no way to know what the author was trying to emphasize or not. Also the fact that an Itachi-fan believes the author was trying to emphasize a point that is pro Itachi, isn't really going to change my opinion on anything ether.



> TBH, I'd probably say it wouldn't.


So you would say that the Jutsu which currently has the better feat is more likely to succeed, which is exactly what i'm saying.



> Also Magatama contributed to the destruction of CT, we simply don't know the amount of that contribution. So it isn't featless.


Someone could have thrown a explosive Kunai up there and the same argument your making for Magatama could be made for that explosive Kunai. W/o knowing how much Magatama contributed or what Magatama is capable of on it's own it has no tangible feats.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2011)

> I know LOL, but we all agree that Naruto defeated Sandaime Raikage, whether he had help or not.
> 
> All I am saying is that, the help was minimal. Thats all.


See the problem is your drawing comparison between shit like Naruto/Sandaime Raikage and this fight, doesn't make sense. Naruto had very minor help from a guy who is virtually fodder and was given information by Hachibi. Itachi had B and Naruto uses their strongest Jutsu for his sake. The difference in help between these two situations is massive.



> You see, it is simple.
> 
> If Itachi wasn't there, Bee and Naruto would be dead, without even being able to put up a proper fight. They got stomped.
> 
> Without Bee and Naruto there, I'd still give Itachi chances of victory, and even if you think he'd fail, I doubt you think it would be as pathetic as Bee and Naruto.


Just because Itachi wouldn't get raped like B & Naruto if he was solo, doesn't mean that B & Naruto's help was minimal. It just means Itachi would perform better against Nagato than B or Naruto would solo. 

If later down the road it's confirmed that Itachi could have w/o a doubt won w/o B and Naruto and an insane amount of difficulty, than one could argue B & Naruto's help was minimal, but currently we don't even know if Itachi could win w/o B & Naruto and if B & Naruto are the reason why he could actually win than their help was anything but minimal.



> But the author made Itachi look better.
> Come on... It is there, re-read the chapters.
> Itachi gets all the praise from Bee, Naruto, Nagato and Kabuto.
> Who else got praise ?


I never said Itachi didn't look better. I never even said that Itachi didn't do more work than B or Naruto. I am simply arguing the idea that B & Naruto's help was minimal. 

And my point still stands that if the shoe was on the other foot, you would not call Itachi's contribution minimal, because you would never undermine Itachi to the point of calling his abilities minimal and the only reason your willing to do it in this case is in-order to make Itachi look better.



> If Itachi simply threw Yasaka's magatama into CT the moment Nagato tossed it, it would look as if Itachi did everything by himself.
> I mean, it is also the most logical thing to do.
> *IF Itachi didn't know the limits of CT, why would he risk it ? *


So obviously he respect the power of CT enough where he thought B & Naruto would greatly increase his odds. That's is all i'm saying.



> What about the way he disabled shared vision ? The shit he pulled with kunai ? Thats skill, in the most basic level.


I was kind of more disappoint with how easily a summon goes poof rather than impressed with Itachi in this instance. I mean I already knew since Part I and the Hebi Sasuke fight that Itachi had mad skills with thrown weapons, but I didn't think a Summon would go poof from his eye being stabbed I thought they were a bit more hardcore than that. 



> I remember the times when people thought Itachi wouldn't be able to move around confortably with Susano'o. He made a fast dive in with that thing while perfectly controlling its actions.


People thought Sick Itachi couldn't move around well while using Susano'o [and I still do] not an Immortal Zombie body Itachi.



> Yeah so... Btw, notice the speed of the attack, it went alongside with FRS and Bijuu dama. Which means it is pretty fast too.


So it has speed feats, not strength feats which is what it needs for the sake of this argument.



> He couldn't use any jutsu after CT ? Who said that ?


The manga states that after a person uses the Tendou Power their is a cool down before another Jutsu can be used:

Official Viz [Chouji], "However once he uses ether Jutsu there is a five second interval in which he can't utilize another Jutsu."

Official Viz [Katsuya], "The more power he uses the longer he takes before he can power up to use another Jutsu."



> He simply couldn't react. Whether you attribute it to him gawking @ the nothingness which was CT a second ago or something else, he got blitzed and oneshot eitherway.
> I remember people finding shitloads of excuse when he did the same to Orochimaru too.


Yeah he couldn't react because he was crippled, didn't have duel vision, and couldn't use another Jutsu.



> And I'll


So I take it you believe the battle speaks towards his strength more than his intelligence/wisdom/team leading capabilities? Care to explain why?



> Just like Kakashi vs Zabuza battle


Sure



> You are underestimating him because you don't accept that Itachi did most of the work and pretending that all those 3 nins equally contributed to Nagato's defeat.


Please stop putting words in my mouth when did I say they contributed equally? All 3 Ninja do not need to contribute equally for it to be a 3v1 fight.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> And i strongly suggest you do not waste my time with bullshit.


If you cannot understand the difference between good logical arguments and bs then that is your problem.


> Spoken like a person who doesn't know Naruto or Bee's arsenal very well.
> 
> Bee was just playing with Taka until they pissed him off and he got serious by going Hachibi.He didn't even try lesser shrouds.
> 
> As i already said for Naruto: never used, rasengans, super shunshin, KB etc etc


Bee did not have Samehada then to wield. Bee got scared by Sasuke and went Hachibe. He then thinks Sasuke is probably the toughest guy he has ever fought. 

Naruto tried to use his speed and taijutsu, but failed. If he could not even land a punch, how was he going to land a Rasengan. 

The same point applies to Itachi. He did not use exploding bunshin, MS or genjutsu or Naruto. Whilst he was warning them when he was going to attack.


> Or maybe it has something to do with him being ignored by Nagato/Kabuto until he intervened to save the Jins.


Kabuto said he was on another level. He was also the one, who put Nagato down in the first place.


> Maybe it has something to do with Bee and Naruto not using their trump cards.


You need an opportunity to use jutsu or it will be used against you. 
Itachi was the one, who did not use the MS. He was the one warning his opponents about his jutsu beforehand.


> And you are not hearing mer fapp to Bee for his impressive performance against Itachi, now do you?


Yes, because he failed. He tried to attack Itachi and got no where. It is impressive for a ninja to sneak up on  another one. Why else do you think Kakuzu praised Kakashi for giving him a Raikiri in the back, or Sasuke praised Gaara for trying to sneak up on him.


> Because Naruto knows that much about Bee?


Yes he does, he has trained with him for a while.


> He only defeated Kakuzu thanks to plot.He wasn't stronger than Pein (weaken or not).Even with all the tactics and tricks he still lost (Deva had him at his mercy prior to Kyuubi)


He was stronger than Kakuzu as Kakashi. That was the point made. Once he sorted himself out, he outmanoeuvred and out thought Kakuzu easily. Pain was one of the exceptions where he was weaker, but he went Kyubi, had lots of information and Pain had no killing intent.


> Nagato's strongest summon is Gedo Mazo.


Any proof he can summon it now Madara took it? Or he can summon it without the black rods in his back?


> And don't consider Itachi hitting Nagato with Amatearsu when Nagato wasn't fighting him "impressive"


Edo Tensei's defend themselves. Nagato was hit and did nothing about it.


> Did Bee take out the summons with a long range attack?Did he then wound Nagato with another mid-range attack?No, i do not thinks so.


Yes, because he is weaker than Nagato. Every time he tried to attack it backfired. He got his chakra sucked up and made Nagato return to his youth or he was about to get his head blasted off. Itachi is succeeding is proof enough of his strength.


> Lets see Nagato forget all about Bee and how well the summons will fare if Bee tries to take them out with long-range attacks from some hiding spot.


Amaterasu is not a long ranged attack. Bee jumped in to save Naruto, but Itachi had to save both. Meaning he had to get into close quarters. Unlike Bee, Itachi succeeded. Bee failed and made things more difficult for Itachi. It's actually funny you don't think outperforming Bee is impressive.


> I never said i did.I only stated what happened in the manga.


In the manga, Itachi saw a technique for the first time, worked out the weaknesses and how to counter it. Gave the information to his comrades and then lectured them about keeping  their clam. Seems impressive to me.



> Please, please spare me the wank


It is the truth. He has not been hit except in the fight he threw the entire manga. Why do you think that is? When you make preconceptions about a character are wrong, it is far better to accept it and move on rather than arguing your old stance pointlessly.


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## Fatback (Sep 29, 2011)

Nagato = Overrated on NF ... You know it's true baby..


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## ? (Sep 29, 2011)

If the fight was to show Itachi > Nagato.. Then..



Why did Kishimoto portray the fight as a 3 vs. 1. If he wanted to show Itachi could solo Nagato why do this?

Why did Kishimoto still handicap Nagato, and cite it as a reasoning in his defeat? If Kishi wanted to show Itachi beating Nagato only because Itachi was stronger than Nagato why do this? He had no problem showing it with Orochimaru, Hebi Sasuke or Deidara.

The only offensive jutsu Nagato attacked Itachi with, _Itachi asked for help_ from two Kage-level fighters to survive it. If Kishi wanted to show Itachi could do it on his own, why do this?

Kishimoto has Itachi to explain the importance of teamwork to Naruto right after the fight with Nagato. Why would Kishi show Itachi utilizing and lecture about it if he didn't need it?


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## Vice (Sep 29, 2011)

Fatback said:


> Nagato = Overrated on NF ... You know it's true baby..



Implying that Itachi isn't. Pfft.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

Nagato is stronger than Itachi, but not by a wide margin. Intelligence and raw power go hand-in-hand. If you don't have one, the other suffers.


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## Vice (Sep 29, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Nagato is stronger than Itachi, but not by a wide margin. Intelligence and raw power go hand-in-hand. If you don't have one, the other suffers.



No one's arguing this. What people are arguing is if Itachi could have beaten Nagato if:

A. Nagato had no mobility issues

B. Nagato could actually defend himself

C. Itachi was fighting him alone


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

Vice said:


> No one's arguing this. What people are arguing is if Itachi could have beaten Nagato if:
> 
> A. Nagato had no mobility issues
> 
> ...



Probably not. In that case, the true "prime Nagato" is most likely well above Itachi (and most everyone's) league.

Semi-prime Nagato, however, is still debatable.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

Inu said:


> If the fight was to show Itachi > Nagato.. Then..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will answer the questions with what I believe are the reasons.
1. To make the fight quicker. Just, because Itachi was stronger than Nagato does not mean he could beat him in half a chapter. This gives him the excuse to finish the fight quickly. The second reason is more important. Itachi is about to have the fight of his life. Kishimoto does not want to reveal Itachi being truly pushed until this fight.

2. He never handicapped Nagato. He just said he had poor mobility and not even the shared vision could make up for it. Nagato is just not a speed demon compared to the other three.

3. At the same time Itachi was not shown failing to destroy it by himself and then asking for help. The jutsu Itachi used was the third out of the three great imperial treasures. Contrary to belief Itachi too has a sword of Kusanagi and by far the most powerful one in the series. Kishimoto is saving the full power of the jewell for Itachi's next fight.

4. No that lecture had nothing to do with this particular fight since he left Naruto to take care of Madara and Sasuke, both are stronger than Nagato. it was about trying to do everything, since Naruto had a messiah complex. Itachi hand one too. In the end it left him isolated and alone. Itachi warned him not that he would lose a fight, but that he would turn into a villian.

Now I have a question for you.

1. If Itachi is weaker than Nagato, how can he hope to stand a chance against Kabuto and his 6th coffin?
2. Why was Itachi the only person to go unharmed. In fact Itachi has gone unharmed this entire manga.
3. Why was Itachi the only person to wound Nagato or even his summons?
4. Why was Itachi the only person to work out the weaknesses and counters to Nagato's jutsu?
5. Why was Itachi the only person said to be on a different level to the other Edo Tensei?
6. Why was it left inconclusive whether Itachi could counter Nagato's strongest technique, but it was made VERY clear Nagato could not counter Itachi's?


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> Bee did not have Samehada then to wield. Bee got scared by Sasuke and went Hachibe. He then thinks Sasuke is probably the toughest guy he has ever fought.



And?Doesn't change the fact that Hachibi>Samehada?



> Naruto tried to use his speed and taijutsu, but failed. If he could not even land a punch, how was he going to land a Rasengan.



Oh, yes because Naruto is always for the straight forward attack with rasengan, right?How?The same way he always does.With KB and smoke bombs tricks.

And he used his ultimate speed?You have proof for that?Why didn't anyone note it?"OMG, just like the yellow flash!!!!" like always?



> The same point applies to Itachi. He did not use exploding bunshin, MS or genjutsu or Naruto. Whilst he was warning them when he was going to attack.



Again, you do not hear me praising Naru and Bee's performance.



> Kabuto said he was on another level. He was also the one, who put Nagato down in the first place.



The correct translation only says "no ordinary man"

And is that the same Kabuto that once realized it was all thanks to dumb luck, that he relied on Nagato to take on all three characters?

Yes, he was mad at Nagato for his mobility problems, and?He was mad he lost.



> He tried to attack Itachi and got no where.



And neither did Itachi.



> It is impressive for a ninja to sneak up on another one.



In the correct translation Bee said "I know".He wasn't sneaked upon.



> Any proof he can summon it now Madara took it? Or he can summon it without the black rods in his back?



Doesn't change the fact that he could summon it before.



> Edo Tensei's defend themselves. *Nagato was hit and did nothing about it.*



And that's exactly why i don't find it impressive AT ALL.He could even sense it coming and made a comment "i see what you did" after he saw Itachi staring him and didn't do shit.Didn't move a finger to defend himself.That's why i do not give a damn.



> Yes, because he is weaker than Nagato. Every time he tried to attack it backfired. He got his chakra sucked up and made Nagato return to his youth or he was about to get his head blasted off. Itachi is succeeding is proof enough of his strength.



WRONG!But good try.Bee never tried a long-range or even mid-range attack.He just rushed in like an idiot.



> In the manga, Itachi saw a technique for the first time, worked out the weaknesses and how to counter it. Gave the information to his comrades and then lectured them about keeping their clam. Seems impressive to me.



Oh, jeez.That black ball is pulling us towards it!I wonder what would happen if we destroy it?!?Right?!?



> It is the truth. He has not been hit except in the fight he threw the entire manga. Why do you think that is? When you make preconceptions about a character are wrong, it is far better to accept it and move on rather than arguing your old stance pointlessly.



Right 

Like i said.Spare me the wank.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

Yasaka's Magatama is probably going to be the deal breaker here.

Itachi will most likely end up using it against Kabuto and/or the "Sixth Coffin," and it will be then that we'll truly know the extent of his powers. At this moment in time, there is still one ability of Itachi's that is featless. We need to figure out what the last treasure can do.

(Not saying it will make him stronger than Nagato.)


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> Now I have a question for you.
> 
> 1. If Itachi is weaker than Nagato, how can he hope to stand a chance against Kabuto and his 6th coffin?
> 2. Why was Itachi the only person to go unharmed. In fact Itachi has gone unharmed this entire manga.
> ...



1. Who said that Itachi will have a good performance against the 6th coffin?

2.Already explained time and time again.Noone was going all out on Itachi solo.Some even ignored him for a time.

3./4. Because other participants such as Naruto were dumbed down so much that they even forget what that Nagato is capable of using jutsu he's used multiple times against them?

5."No ordinary man" why was Nagato with his poor mobility and all, trusted to take on Itachi + the jins?And Kabuto was even excited about taking on Itachi with Nagato.

6.Nagato didn't know Totsuka's sword was coming because of the dust cloud.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> And?Doesn't change the fact that Hachibi>Samehada?


Well Samehada did quite well against V2 Bee if you remember straight. Turning into the 8 tails would have drained his chakra and made him an easy target for Amaterasu. I think he learnt his lesson from the last time he did that.


> Oh, yes because Naruto is always for the straight forward attack with rasengan, right?How?The same way he always does.With KB and smoke bombs tricks.


What makes you think Naruto could trick Itachi? To use a jutsu, your opponent must leave you an opening. Or do you wonder why Kakashi did not try to Raikiri Itachi the first time they fought, or any of the big water jutsu he used against Zabuza?


> And he used his ultimate speed?You have proof for that?Why didn't anyone note it?"OMG, just like the yellow flash!!!!" like always?


His normal speed is on the same level as V1 A he thought it would be enough. I already pointed out Itachi was not using any big jutsu and actually warning them about his attacks. He was more disadvantaged than either of them.


> Again, you do not hear me praising Naru and Bee's performance.


Yes, but Itachi did MUCH MUCH better so you should praise his performances.




> The correct translation only says "no ordinary man"
> 
> And is that the same Kabuto that once realized it was all thanks to dumb luck, that he relied on Nagato to take on all three characters?


Itachi was lucky to meet Naruto and have the crow, but realising the how utilise the situation instantly to his advantage is why he is above the other zombies. 

How did relying on Nagato to take out the other Itachi work out for Kabuto?


> Yes, he was mad at Nagato for his mobility problems, and?He was mad he lost.


Yes he was made Nagato was slow.


> And neither did Itachi.


Itachi warned him about his coming attacks and still landed hits with his fire shuriken. Bee got no where even when he attacked Itachi from behind whilst he was preoccupied with Naruto.


> In the correct translation Bee said "I know".He wasn't sneaked upon.


I will wait till the VIZ comes out before I say what the correct translations are. There are also sometimes changes between the volume and the chapter.


> Doesn't change the fact that he could summon it before.


Summon it and use it to what extent.  We saw him use it once and it drained his energy for the rest of his life and left him crippled. Madara seemed to power it up with Biju.


> And that's exactly why i don't find it impressive AT ALL.He could even sense it coming and made a comment "i see what you did" after he saw Itachi staring him and didn't do shit.Didn't move a finger to defend himself.That's why i do not give a damn.


Yes he saw how Itachi broke out of Edo Tensei control. Nothing implies he could have reacted. He is programmed to react. You are claiming he has mobility problems one second and that he could dodge Amaterasu the next. Not to mention as soon as he says he "I see what you did," he is set on flames.


> WRONG!But good try.Bee never tried a long-range or even mid-range attack.He just rushed in like an idiot.


No he tried to rescue Naruto. Itachi had to enter close range combat just like Bee, but he had to rescue 2 people. In the ninja world, being intelligent is being powerful.


> Oh, jeez.That black ball is pulling us towards it!I wonder what would happen if we destroy it?!?Right?!?


Yet Itachi is the one, who came up with it, whilst Naruto panicked and Bee was oddly silent.



> Right
> 
> Like i said.Spare me the wank.


Is it true or not?


----------



## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> 1. Who said that Itachi will have a good performance against the 6th coffin?


He does not need a good enough performance. There has to be some tension that he stands a chance. 


> 2.Already explained time and time again.Noone was going all out on Itachi solo.Some even ignored him for a time.


Does not answer the question why Kishimoto purposely made him the only one to remain untouched.


> 3./4. Because other participants such as Naruto were dumbed down so much that they even forget what that Nagato is capable of using jutsu he's used multiple times against them?


Again if you believe this to be the case why did the author do this. What message did he want to convey?


> 5."No ordinary man" why was Nagato with his poor mobility and all, trusted to take on Itachi + the jins?And Kabuto was even excited about taking on Itachi with Nagato.


He failed, Itachi did not.


> 6.Nagato didn't know Totsuka's sword was coming because of the dust cloud.


Excuses, why did Nagato allow the dust cloud to obscure his vision. Why did he not come up with a counter. Kishimoto could have easily had him create a clone. You simply dont like the outcome of the battle and you failed to answer the questions appropriately.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

CA182 said:


> Mangafox - This one is just difficult to understand really.



Oddly enough, that is the right translation.


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## CA182 (Sep 29, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> Oddly enough, that is the right translation.



And we're expected to know that Madara was referring to Itachi being close to death from that!?

......Even in hindsight that's a strange line.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> Well Samehada did quite well against V2 Bee if you remember straight. *Turning into the 8 tails would have drained his chakra and made him an easy target for Amaterasu. *I think he learnt his lesson from the last time he did that.



That's actually a good point.Still no excuse for not using the shroud he used against Nagato.Yes, samehada is powerful, but Bee should be faster in his shroud.



> What makes you think Naruto could trick Itachi? To use a jutsu, your opponent must leave you an opening. Or do you wonder why Kakashi did not try to Raikiri Itachi the first time they fought, or any of the big water jutsu he used against Zabuza?



OMG, they fought for like 5 seconds then they separated and there was quite a distance between the two.They never fought after that though.



> Yes, but Itachi did MUCH MUCH better so you should praise his performances.



Sorry but Itachi fans do too much of that already.



> Itachi was lucky to meet Naruto and have the crow, but realising the how utilise the situation instantly to his advantage is why he is above the other zombies.
> 
> * How did relying on Nagato to take out the other Itachi work out for Kabuto?*



That is relevant how exactly?Oh, yes NOT AT ALL.Good job 

The point you were making was that Kabuto thought that Itachi was a level above the other Edos including Nagato.Kabuto actions imply the exact opposite.



> Yes he was made Nagato was slow.



Not just slow.Nagato lacked proper mobility.



> Itachi warned him about his coming attacks and still landed hits with his fire shuriken. Bee got no where even when he attacked Itachi from behind whilst he was preoccupied with Naruto.



I meant Itachi with his sneak attack.

And Itachi never warned him about his shurikens.And there's a reason they landed.Bee made his hand big to block with it instead of with his sword.



> You are claiming he has mobility problems one second and that he could dodge Amaterasu the next.



Never said dodge.Summon something in front of him to take the hit or activate the Preta sphere and wait for it.



> No he tried to rescue Naruto. *Itachi had to enter close range combat just like Bee*, but he had to rescue 2 people. In the ninja world, being intelligent is being powerful.



Yeah only after he used long-range to take out the summons which were responsible for Bee getting caught and then he used Susano's hands.Itachi himself wasn't put in harms way like Bee.



> Is it true or not?



I explained about a billion times already why Itachi didn't get hit.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

CA182 said:


> And we're expected to know that Madara was referring to Itachi being close to death from that!?
> 
> ......Even in hindsight that's a strange line.



It's intentionally vague. 

Though, if you pick apart the line, you may understand what is being conveyed.

*"The machine is ripened" = It is finally time to act (given that it's referring to Itachi, it'd be better to say "he's summoned his iron will at last," or something along those lines)

"His mind is made up" = He's preparing to go on a collision course

"It won't be long now" = Foreshadows an imminent event (Itachi's meeting with Sasuke takes place shortly after this conversation, which clarifies the line)*


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> He does not need a good enough performance. There has to be some tension that he stands a chance.



I don't care how you will try to interpreted and twist it.If that was the case, he would have  had Itachi solo with zero help.

Itachi can always think of some kind of strategy and some kind of scheme against Kabuto.



> Does not answer the question why Kishimoto purposely made him the only one to remain untouched.



Nagato had to go down.

Naruto and Bee were dumbasses etc etc



> Again if you believe this to be the case why did the author do this. What message did he want to convey?



That staying out of focus to analyze the situation and think of a strategy is better than rushing like an idiot?



> He failed, Itachi did not.



Irrelevant.Obviously Kabuto did not think that Itachi>Nagato.But he was foolish to think that he can take on all three of them.



> Excuses, why did Nagato allow the dust cloud to obscure his vision. Why did he not come up with a counter. Kishimoto could have easily had him create a clone.



Nagato wasn't in control there.He had his mind wiped.



> You simply dont like the outcome of the battle and you failed to answer the questions appropriately.



Sorry but i don't care what you in your extremely biased opinion find "appropriate respond"


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## CA182 (Sep 29, 2011)

silenceofthelambs said:


> It's intentionally vague.
> 
> Though, if you pick apart the line, you may understand what is being conveyed.
> 
> ...



That makes more sense. When reading the manga through, that line is _so_ vague that I missed the intention even with hindsight.
(I hope it's only here I've done this...)

I've read that chapter a lot of times but it's only now that I've noticed this.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 29, 2011)

"I underestimated him...! Uzumaki Nagato...he's clearly on another level to the others!"

That is the correct translation.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I don't care how you will try to interpreted and twist it.If that was the case, he would have  had Itachi solo with zero help.
> 
> Itachi can always think of some kind of strategy and some kind of scheme.


No, because he wants to save something for the Itachi's final fight. He cannot show everything Itachi has against Nagato and then repeat it. 

Why do you think he had Gaara and Naruto win the same way?


> Nagato had to go down.
> 
> Naruto and Bee were dumbasses etc etc


If that is what you think. I have nothing more to add to it.


> That staying out of focus to analyze the situation and think of a strategy is better than rushing like an idiot?


What did I say about intelligence being power in the ninja world?


> Irrelevant.Obviously Kabuto did not think that Itachi>Nagato.But he was foolish to think that he can take on all three of them.


Without Itachi he would have taken out two of them very easily. He also thought Sandaime Raikage could take SM Naruto he was wrong.


> Nagato wasn't in control there.He had his mind wiped.


Kabuto is has better battle strategies than Kakashi. Him being in control was probably for the best.


> Sorry but i don't care what you in your extremely biased opinion find "appropriate respond"


No point responding to you anymore.


----------



## God Hand (Sep 29, 2011)

Inu said:


> If the fight was to show Itachi > Nagato.. Then..
> 
> 
> Why did Kishimoto portray the fight as a 3 vs. 1. If he wanted to show Itachi could solo Nagato why do this?
> ...




This.  I'm sure this has been said in one form or another, throughout 12 pages of bickering.

Its clear that Kishimoto holds Nagato and Itachi in the same light.  If the two were ever given a one vs one fight devoid of plot relevance (thus no PnJ), then it would have no doubt ended in one of the following: a stalemate, both dieing, one winning but nearly dieing in the process.

Neither is about to solo the other.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> Again I repeat the Nagato, which Itachi sealed, was MUCH stronger than Pain.



You can repeat it as much as you like.You forget that dumbass Naruto said that.Naruto who never saw much of Asura or Human.

Pein would never get defeated with one strike from Totsuka.Also, Pein doesn't lack mobility which Kabuto was so mad at Nagato for.



> No, because he wants to save something for the Itachi's final fight. He cannot show everything Itachi has against Nagato and then repeat it.



You are free to your opinion that that's the reason.



> Why do you think he had Gaara and Naruto win the same way?



Gaara?Gaara vs Mizukage is not over yet here.

Naruto?We already saw how he fared against the *invisible* Chameleon which is much weaker than Mu.Naruto was lucky.



> What did I say about intelligence being power in the ninja world?



Don't remember exactly.Still, intelligence is very important.



> Without Itachi he would have taken out two of them very easily. He also thought Sandaime Raikage could take SM Naruto he was wrong.



True.Still remains irrelevant though.The point was that Kabuto did not think that Nagato was inferior to Itachi.



> Kabuto is has better battle strategies than Kakashi. Him being in control was probably for the best.



Doesn't matter.You were blaming Nagato when he was not at fault.


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## CA182 (Sep 29, 2011)

Reply to Arednad 
*Spoiler*: __ 






arednad said:


> People go overboard with trying to disproof A>B>C. Yes you cannot use it all the time, but guess what in real life and in manga A>B>C is right most of the time.
> 
> In the ninja world intelligence is one of most important attributes. The stronger ninja is usually the one, who comes up with the right move no matter what. There are situations where match ups are going to effect the battle. Tayuya vs Temari is one, but Kishimoto nearly always tells us this beforehand. He never said any such thing about Itachi vs Orochimaru or Jiraiya vs Pain.
> 
> ...



I figured it out. The reason I cannot back this logic is it's using the idea that if Ninja A beat's a Sannin that means Ninja A can beat all Sannin.

So if Naruto beats a jounin that means he can beat every Jounin.

That's what's bugging me, it's so hard when this logic is used to pin it down. But that's why I just cannot back it.

The conclusion might even be right too, but the logic used to get there is something I can't ever honestly argue in favour of.



arednad said:


> Yes, but I don't see why people cannot see the obvious here. Team work allowed the fights to end quicker, *not necessarily change the outcome had they been one on one*. Like a wise kage said, if you cannot beat the Zombies how are you going to cope against the bosses. Right now Itachi is trying to take on Kabuto and the 6th coffin. If he cannot even beat a weaker summon then what chance does he stand, where is the tension?
> 
> That's not the way he has written these fights or even the fight with Kakuzu really.
> 
> ...



Ok the main character is Naruto, so the teamwork theme is in relation to him not Itachi.

Could you honestly say that without teamwork in a 1 vs 1 fight with Nagato he has any chance at winning?

That's what I meant, Kishi is dragging teamwork into all these fights which links back to Kakashi's first lesson. That a far stronger opponent can be beaten with teamwork.

I'll even bet that in the future during the fight with Madara and 6 paths. Naruto will have a flashback remembering that he only got to the final fight because of teamwork.

Kishi is laying the foundations now for that flashback with all the teamwork which is appearing in preparation.

_Heck I reckon that Haku's lesson about precious people will get reinforced subtly soon as well._


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> I will answer the questions with what I believe are the reasons.
> 1. If Itachi is weaker than Nagato, how can he hope to stand a chance against Kabuto and his 6th coffin?
> 2. Why was Itachi the only person to go unharmed. In fact Itachi has gone unharmed this entire manga.
> 3. Why was Itachi the only person to wound Nagato or even his summons?
> ...



1. Has two possible answers

A) Because he probably won't win, he'll probably end up sacrificing himself just to end Edo Tensei, but not defeat Kabuto outright

B) Because Kabuto now that he's lost most of his Tensei [or they are under Madara's control] is not as strong as Nagato.

2A. Because Itachi had back up and Nagato didn't
2B. Itachi is harmed every time he uses MS, so he has been harmed in this manga

3. Because he had back up and he didn't have to fight through Pain Rikudo and figure out the Rikudo's secret before even getting to face Nagato

4. He wasn't Jiriaya, Shima, Fusaku, and Kakashi have all worked out weakness to Nagato's Jutsu in the past.

5. He wasn't that was a poor translation

6. It wasn't made clear Nagato couldn't counter Itachi's strongest Jutsu, If Itachi can't counter CT than Nagato can counter Susano'o with it. Both are left in conclusive at this point


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

CA182 said:


> Reply to Arednad
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: __ 




There is a problem with the example you use. Not all Jounin are said to be equal in strength. In fact the opposite is the case. There is a huge gap in power between the likes of 3rd World War Minato and Asuma. However, the Sannin are said to be roughly equal. Hence, if there is no match up problems mentioned or implied a comparison can be made.


> That's what's bugging me, it's so hard when this logic is used to pin it down. But that's why I just cannot back it.


As I said the Sannin are said to be on the same level.


> The conclusion might even be right too, but the logic used to get there is something I can't ever honestly argue in favour of.


I hate to be pedantic, but you are not arguing with the logic. You are claiming one of my premises are false, ie the Sannin are virtually equal. A wrong premise would mean the conclusion would not follow, but it is not due to a fault in the logic. 

For instance if I said 
1. All English men are handsome.
2. Bob is and English man.
Conclusion Bob is handsome. 

Then the logic is fine. It is the premise, which is problematic. 


> Ok the main character is Naruto, so the teamwork theme is in relation to him not Itachi.
> 
> Could you honestly say that without teamwork in a 1 vs 1 fight with Nagato he has any chance at winning?


Yes since Kishimoto will write it in a way for this to happen. However, it would be a long long fight and both would be pushed to their limits. 

At the end of the day, Itachi is probably going to have a competitive fight with someone stronger than Nagato.


> That's what I meant, Kishi is dragging teamwork into all these fights which links back to Kakashi's first lesson. That a far stronger opponent can be beaten with teamwork.
> 
> I'll even bet that in the future during the fight with Madara and 6 paths. Naruto will have a flashback remembering that he only got to the final fight because of teamwork.


This is true, but Kakashi also says individual skill is important. Team work was used to ensure victory with minimum casualties. Just, because someone uses teamwork does not mean they are weaker. 

A second example came to my head. Remember Kakashi against Edo Zabuza. Kakashi used a lot of team work to win. He used the powers of Naara and Yamanaka clans. Now does this mean Kakashi is weaker than Zabuza? No of course not he used team work to end the fight as quickly as possible with the minimum casualties. 


> Kishi is laying the foundations now for that flashback with all the teamwork which is appearing in preparation.
> 
> _Heck I reckon that Haku's lesson about precious people will get reinforced subtly soon as well._





Haku's lesson has been rammed down are throats all through out the manga. Did you not notice Hiruzen summoning the strength to protect Konoha, Kimimaro getting up off his death bed, Tsunade protecting Naruto, Jiraiya bringing himself back from the dead, or Suigetsu surviving a Biju bomb.

I repeat teamwork is important and it is best to use it, but it does not mean you are weaker than your opponent.


----------



## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

Its very simple for me. If kishi wanted to show itachi > nagato he would have had him defeat a mobile nagato and he wouldn't have had him have 2 top tier jinchuuriki support him.

I simply refuse to believe a clear minded mobile nagato would have been beaten 1v1 the way he was.. I really cant see how anyone else would either.

Im not going to say nagato > itachi even though i really believe he is . At the most they will both die .

It just does not make sense to me.. Why make it 3v1.. Why make nagato immobile while you have a fully healthy itachi going all out 3v1 as he took advantage of the smoke.

I would like to see an immobile ***edo*** itachi go against nagato naruto and bee.

What is stopping nagato from sending gedo's soul sucking dragon to seal him? What can itachi do? Nothing


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## T-Bag (Sep 29, 2011)

flamesNfrost said:


> Its very simple for me. If kishi wanted to show itachi > nagato he would have had him defeat a mobile nagato and he wouldn't have had him have 2 top tier jinchuuriki support him.
> 
> I simply refuse to believe a clear minded mobile nagato would have been beaten 1v1 the way he was.. I really cant see how anyone else would either.
> 
> ...



If kishimoto wanted to make nagato > itachi. He could have simply said so. kishi has no problem writing that out in text. Or he could have made nagato actually damage itachi and have itachi comment on nagato's power or w/e.

Why 3 on 1? Because there are 2 relevant characters right there. What's he supposed to do? Not have them do anything? Not have his main character do anything while itachi takes all the credit? Yeah.. no.

Itachi was clearly the best of them all. Hence kabuto's comment in itachi not being ordinary. He didn't comment on nagato, but itachi. Yeah.. It's always about itachi anyway, bcuz he's a fucking genius in every way.

Itachi solos. He's a uchiha, he's better. You cant beat uchiha in battle of eyes.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

Turrin said:


> 1. Has two possible answers
> 
> A) Because he probably won't win, he'll probably end up sacrificing himself just to end Edo Tensei, but not defeat Kabuto outright


If Itachi kills Kabuto then he has not learnt a thing from the Uchiha massacre. He has learnt not to try and do everything by himself. He now needs to learn he should do the humane thing. He will have the choice, but choose to save the other souls.

To do this he would still have to take the 6th coffin. Sacrificing himself to take out someone stronger still requires him at least to be at Nagato's level and most likely stronger.


> B) Because Kabuto now that he's lost most of his Tensei [or they are under Madara's control] is not as strong as Nagato.


He has his 6th coffin his ultimate Edo Tensei, which he needs time to summon. I am sure he is still stronger than Nagato.


> 2A. Because Itachi had back up and Nagato didn't
> 2B. Itachi is harmed every time he uses MS, so he has been harmed in this manga


A) Why were Bee and Naruto harmed? The author was making a point
B) I hope you are not serious with this one.


> 3. Because he had back up and he didn't have to fight through Pain Rikudo and figure out the Rikudo's secret before even getting to face Nagato


This avoids the question. Why didn't Naruto or Bee harm Nagato or his summons? Why was it only Itachi. Pain is much weaker than Nagato. Not to mention using Pain would exhaust Nagato leaving him a cripplied, who cannot move.


> 4. He wasn't Jiriaya, Shima, Fusaku, and Kakashi have all worked out weakness to Nagato's Jutsu in the past.


I said Nagato not Pain. Nagato's jutsu are on a completely different level and he can use multiple ones at the same time. I was also specifically talking about this fight.


> 5. He wasn't that was a poor translation


Does not change the fact he was the only one singled out for praise.


> 6. It wasn't made clear Nagato couldn't counter Itachi's strongest Jutsu, If Itachi can't counter CT than Nagato can counter Susano'o with it. Both are left in conclusive at this point


No Nagato get's hit with Susano'o he dies. He cannot counter it. Being able to achieve a double KO is the best he can hope for by releasing CT at the same time. However, we do no know if Itachi can counter it or not.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi was clearly the best of them all. Hence kabuto's comment in itachi not being ordinary. He didn't comment on nagato, but itachi.



He didn't need to.His actions speak louder than words.If Kabuto honestly thought that Itachi was anyone near being superior to Nagato he wouldn't have relied on Nagato to take on Itachi + Naruto and Bee.Not to mention ignore Itachi for a good while.



> Itachi solos.



Except he didn't



> He's a uchiha, he's better. You cant beat uchiha in battle of eyes.


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## T-Bag (Sep 29, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> He didn't need to.His actions speak louder than words.If Kabuto honestly thought that Itachi was anyone near being superior to Nagato he wouldn't have relied on Nagato to take on Itachi + Naruto and Bee.Not to mention ignore Itachi for a good while.
> 
> 
> 
> Except he didn't



Actions speak louder than words? Not in kishis book. Itachi is better bro. How many times do I gotta tell you this? Nagato is good, but when you compare him with uchiha he looks like... well you know


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## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> If kishimoto wanted to make nagato > itachi. He could have simply said so. kishi has no problem writing that out in text. Or he could have made nagato actually damage itachi and have itachi comment on nagato's power or w/e.
> 
> Why 3 on 1? Because there are 2 relevant characters right there. What's he supposed to do? Not have them do anything? Not have his main character do anything while itachi takes all the credit? Yeah.. no.
> 
> ...



That comes down to kabutos arrogance. He completely ignored itachi.. Also we don't know what CT did to itachi.

Yes kabuto did indeed say that. It could have been a mistranslation like many have said but lets assume he said that.

What was kabutos reaction following that? Nothing. He went on with nagato while completely ignoring itachi all the while convinced he would be able to retrieve both jinchuurikis.


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## T-Bag (Sep 29, 2011)

flamesNfrost said:


> That comes down to kabutos arrogance. He completely ignored itachi.. Also we don't know what CT did to itachi.
> 
> Yes kabuto did indeed say that. It could have been a mistranslation like many have said but lets assume he said that.
> 
> What was kabutos reaction following that? Nothing. He went on with nagato while completely ignoring itachi all the while convinced he would be able to retrieve both jinchuurikis.



He didn't ignore itachi lol. The instant itachi came in the battle field he planned to capture him. How is that ignoring him. He was focusing on naruto and killerbee because they were the ones present. Thats not ignoring itachi. Because the fact is, he wasnt even there.

ignoring would be, if itachi came into the battle field and didn't take him seriously.

then again itachi was his undoing. Which kabuto admitted too.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 29, 2011)

> A) Why were Bee and Naruto harmed? The author was making a point



Yeah and the point was to sit back, analyze and do not rush in like an idiot.



> This avoids the question. Why didn't Naruto or Bee harm Nagato or his summons? Why was it only Itachi.



Because Naruto and Bee were acting like morons.



> Pain is much weaker than Nagato.



Pein would never go down to one strike from Totsuka though.No matter how much more powerful Nagato is.And Pein doesn't lack mobility.


And Naruto isn't the most reliable source.



> Not to mention using Pain would exhaust Nagato leaving him a cripplied, who cannot move.



Gedo Mazo does.Not Pein.



> Does not change the fact he was the only one singled out for praise.



Does not change the fact that Kabuto put Nagato against not only him but Naruto and Bee as well.And that>the praise he gave Itachi.




> He cannot counter it.



You don't know that.You don't know what would've happened if Nagato was in control of himself and there wasn't a dust cloud covering Itachi.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2011)

arednad said:


> If Itachi kills Kabuto then he has not learnt a thing from the Uchiha massacre. He has learnt not to try and do everything by himself. He now needs to learn he should do the humane thing. He will have the choice, but choose to save the other souls.
> 
> To do this he would still have to take the 6th coffin. Sacrificing himself to take out someone stronger still requires him at least to be at Nagato's level and most likely stronger.
> 
> He has his 6th coffin his ultimate Edo Tensei, which he needs time to summon. I am sure he is still stronger than Nagato.


You telling me what you think is going to happen is irrelevant. You asked how is it possible for Itachi vs Kabuto to play out if Itachi is weaker than Nagato. I gave two plausible scenario's of how the fight could play out even if Itachi is weaker than Nagato, so question answered. 



> A) Why were Bee and Naruto harmed? The author was making a point
> B) I hope you are not serious with this one.



A) The point was about keeping your calm and analyzing the situation correctly before jumping in. Itachi did this, B and Naruto didn't. 

B) So MS doesn't harm Itachi?



> This avoids the question. Why didn't Naruto or Bee harm Nagato or his summons? Why was it only Itachi.


Because Itachi kept his clam and analyzed the situation correctly and because he is the only one with a Fuuinjutsu



> Pain is much weaker than Nagato.


I wouldn't say Pain is much weaker than Nagato, Nagato's Jutsu are stronger than Pain's, but Pain doesn't have the mobility issues of Nagato.



> Not to mention using Pain would exhaust Nagato leaving him a cripplied, who cannot move.


Nagato can't move to begin with so I have no clue what your talking about



> I said Nagato not Pain. Nagato's jutsu are on a completely different level and he can use multiple ones at the same time. I was also specifically talking about this fight.


They are the same Jutsu, just because they pack a greater punch does not change their mechanics which others have also figured out



> Does not change the fact he was the only one singled out for praise.


Many Tensei have been praised throughout the war, big deal.



> No Nagato get's hit with Susano'o he dies. He cannot counter it. Being able to achieve a double KO is the best he can hope for by releasing CT at the same time. However, we do no know if Itachi can counter it or not.


What are you talking about we saw Nagato release CT before Itachi was able to hit him with Totsuka sword.


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## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> He didn't ignore itachi lol. The instant itachi came in the battle field he planned to capture him. How is that ignoring him. He was focusing on naruto and killerbee because they were the ones present. Thats not ignoring itachi. Because the fact is, he wasnt even there.
> 
> ignoring would be, if itachi came into the battle field and didn't take him seriously.
> 
> then again itachi was his undoing. Which kabuto admitted too.



Itachi was in the battle the moment he broke free of edo. Kabuto is arrogant yes, but he is no idiot.  . What did he expect? That itachi would stay out get some popcorn and enjoy the show? 

 No even after having itachi break out of edo.. Even after having "praising" him as being on a "different level" he still continued to pursue his main objective with confidence. Which was the retrieval of the jinchuuriki. He was that confident. So following his praise of itachi what does he think of nagato?


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## Andrew (Sep 29, 2011)

I know how the fight would have ended if: Nagato wasn't being controlled by Kabuto and the fact Nagato literally had both of his hands full. He would have been extremely successful by using the human path to capture them both. If Nagato was able to remove Amaterasu from his body, then his technique would have succeeded to avoid Itachi's Susano'o. Moreover, Nagato can use a sealing technique as well, the Demotic Statue of the Outer Path would have sealed Itachi if he used it. In my opinion, I beleive Nagato is stronger just being controlled by the wrong person.


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## T-Bag (Sep 29, 2011)

flamesNfrost said:


> Itachi was in the battle the moment he broke free of edo. Kabuto is arrogant yes, but he is no idiot.  . What did he expect? That itachi would stay out get some popcorn and enjoy the show?
> 
> No even after having itachi break out of edo.. Even after having "praising" him as being on a "different level" he still continued to pursue his main objective. Which was the retrieval of the jinchuuriki. He was that confident. So following his praise of itachi what does he think of nagato?



Like you said he is arrogant. He thought too highly of nagato which was his mistake. Or so it appears anyway to us. Itachi was around and he should have known better then to try and capture the Jins with the king around.

But what kabuto did w/ nagato was indirect hype anyway, unlike with itachi where he actually commented on it to make it clear to the fans that Itachi is better than the rest.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 29, 2011)

IchLiebe said:


> I see Itachi one shotted nagato, but how is that even a feat
> *wow he stabbed a man who couldnt walk with a huge sword *
> Im sorry but his feats are not impressive at all



He seemed to Blitz Killer Bee and Naruto easy enough, so he couldn't walk but he could sprint.


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## Reddan (Sep 29, 2011)

Turrin said:


> You telling me what you think is going to happen is irrelevant. You asked how is it possible for Itachi vs Kabuto to play out if Itachi is weaker than Nagato. I gave two plausible scenario's of how the fight could play out even if Itachi is weaker than Nagato, so question answered.


No I told you what I thought would happen. I then answered the question. You neglected to factor in the 6th Edo, which is Kabuto's greatest summon. With that he is stronger than Nagato. For Itachi to take that down or force a draw he is going to have stalemate or defeat someone stronger than Nagato. You have not replied to this.


> A) The point was about keeping your calm and analyzing the situation correctly before jumping in. Itachi did this, B and Naruto didn't.
> 
> B) So MS doesn't harm Itachi?


A)So Itachi was the best shinobi you are saying?
B) I guess we should add his sickness there as well right?


> Because Itachi kept his clam and analyzed the situation correctly and because he is the only one with a Fuuinjutsu


Not answering the question. Why couldn't Naruto harm the Ceberus summon? He was not panicking yet. Why couldn't the others at least harm Nagato before they sealed him. We have seen several cases where a shinobi has forced the Edo to regenerate then someone else has sealed him. Yet in this case all the damage was done by Itachi.

Also doesn't keeping your calm and analysing the situation correctly make you a stronger shinobi?


> I wouldn't say Pain is much weaker than Nagato, Nagato's Jutsu are stronger than Pain's, but Pain doesn't have the mobility issues of Nagato.


Naruto fought both of them. He thinks Pain is much weaker.


> Nagato can't move to begin with so I have no clue what your talking about


When he absorbed Bee he could move, just not on the level of 3 of the fastest characters ever.


> They are the same Jutsu, just because they pack a greater punch does not change their mechanics which others have also figured out


Countering something on the small scale does not mean you have the counter for it on a large scale. Nor does finding the weakness for one body mean you can find the weakness against Nagato with all the powers in one body.

In addition Jiraiya had to run off and think off a solution. Kakashi needed time to hide and come up with a plan. Itachi did it all in the midst of battle.


> Many Tensei have been praised throughout the war, big deal.


Not the same level of praise.


> What are you talking about we saw Nagato release CT before Itachi was able to hit him with Totsuka sword.


Yes, because Itachi was saving Bee and Naruto, whilst Nagato used his Edo regeneration. From what we know so far it comes down to, who strikes first, however, we know Nagato cannot counter the Totsuka sword and we are unsure about whether Itachi can counter CT. This is before we discuss whether Amaterasu in itself is enough.

Just look at this post about in the telegrams. See if it looks familiar.

*Spoiler*: __ 



http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=40616509&postcount=10


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## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Like you said he is arrogant. He thought too highly of nagato which was his mistake. Or so it appears anyway to us. Itachi was around and he should have known better then to try and capture the Jins with the king around.
> 
> But what kabuto did w/ nagato was indirect hype anyway, unlike with itachi where he actually commented on it to make it clear to the fans that Itachi is better than the rest.



Why would he blame nagatos immobility after he was sealed? Does this mean had nagato been mobile the outcome would have been different?

If the sword came at a total surprise then kabuto wouldn't put the blame on his immobility . Kabuto saw it coming. He however could not dodge.. 

Its like having a defected controller.. pushing the x button on your playstation to jump without it functioning.

kishi wanted to make this point very clear... that had nagato been mobile the outcome would have been very different regardless of the 3v1 situation


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## T-Bag (Sep 29, 2011)

flamesNfrost said:


> Why would he blame nagatos immobility after he was sealed? Does this mean had nagato been mobile the outcome would have been different?
> 
> If the sword came at a total surprise then kabuto wouldn't put the blame on his immobility . Kabuto saw it coming. He however could not dodge..
> 
> ...



Nagato's immobility is part of his character. That cannot be changed. All kabuto commented on was that nagato had mobility issues and couldn't dodge the sword. With legs, it just means he would have had a better shot at dodging. Better chance. But again like I said mobilility was part of his character. It's just a way for kishi to keep characters balanced with other top tiers.

And kabuto commented in itachi's skills not once, but twice. While he didn't praise nagato one time. Kishi was focusing more on itachi. And thats for a reason.


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## flamesNfrost (Sep 29, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Nagato's immobility is part of his character. That cannot be changed. All kabuto commented on was that nagato had mobility issues and couldn't dodge the sword. With legs, it just means he would have had a better shot at dodging. Better chance. But again like I said mobilility was part of his character. It's just a way for kishi to keep characters balanced with other top tiers.
> 
> And kabuto commented in itachi's skills not once, but twice. While he didn't praise nagato one time. Kishi was focusing more on itachi. And thats for a reason.




Your post makes it sound as though you agree that had nagato been mobile the outcome would have been different? Even IF you feel the chances were slim? I think that's the point many are trying to make

No one can predict the outcome of a fully healthy nagato going all out against a healthy itachi. They are both crazy top tier. 

That is why even a complete nagato had to be handicapped. That's why its part of his character.. He is simply too powerful to have been fully healthy.


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## Turrin (Sep 29, 2011)

@arednad

You assume the 6th Coffin is Kabuto's strongest summon, which is not confirmed yet, but even if it is Itachi does not have to defeat the summon to stop ET, he just has to last long enough to trick Kabuto inton ending ET. So no he doesn't have beat an ET stronger than Nagato to stop ET. Also Kabuto even with a stronger ET than Nagato may still be weaker than Nagato due to the weakness of ET, which is to target the summoner. On top of that Itachi is uniquely well suited to the task of stopping ET, since he is a Genjutsu specialist, has knowledge on ET, and even seems to have some sort of plan to taking it out.

So for the third time Itachi does not need to be stronger than Nagato to stop ET or even defeat Kabuto. This isn't DBZ my man.

As for the other shit, it basically boils down to Itachi being better in that situation than Naruto and B, which personally I think is because Itachi is more intelligent and wise than Naruto and B, which is what some needs most when facing an enemy generally stronger than them. 

As for Pain vs Nagato, Naruto never said he thought Pain is much weaker. 

And if it comes down to who strikes first Itachi with Totsuka or Nagato with CT we have already seen Nagato strikes first in the manga cannon, so there is no reason to even discuss it.

The rest of the points I might get to later, but I got to go for now


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

flamesNfrost said:


> Your post makes it sound as though you agree that had nagato been mobile the outcome would have been different? Even IF you feel the chances were slim? I think that's the point many are trying to make
> 
> No one can predict the outcome of a fully healthy nagato going all out against a healthy itachi. They are both crazy top tier.
> 
> That is why even a complete nagato had to be handicapped. That's why its part of his character.. He is simply too powerful to have been fully healthy.



Well I'm not saying the outcome would have changed. I just said he simply would have had a better chance at "dodging" the sword. It doesn't mean he would have dodged the sword 100% or beat itachi. Just a better shot at it.


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## santanico (Sep 30, 2011)

Naruto and Bee most likely would not have won it weren't for Itachi. Now I'm not saying Itachi>all of 'em, just that he helped them tremendously. 

As for the Itachi vs. Nagato.. that's a tough call.


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## RockyIII (Sep 30, 2011)

hahah only on NF can a team fight with 2 of the strongest heroes and Itachi be credited solely to Itachi.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 30, 2011)

RockyIII said:


> hahah only on NF can a team fight with 2 of the strongest heroes and Itachi be credited solely to Itachi.



Two of the strongest heroes who managed to not lay a finger on the guy, and almost got themselves killed. 

Why do you guys keep bringing up the strength of Naruto and B when they were able to accomplish nothing against Nagato on their own?

Each and every attack on Nagato failed. Why does their power matter again? It's not like Nagato even struggled against their power. Each time they made a move, Nagato shut them down.

THE ONE TIME they did something worthwhile, it took not only Itachi to plan it, and he had to calm one of them down. 

I'll concede that the defeat wasn't PURELY Itachi's. However, the fact that Itachi showed the capacity to figure out Nagato's powers, within moments of seeing them, and had the actual power to take Nagato down - remember Naruto tried to kill the dog summon, and it rejuvenated; Itachi used Amaterasu on it, and it went away for good - it is hardly outside of the realm of logic to assume Itachi could do it alone.

Naruto and B, unlike Itachi, failed to figure out anything about Nagato's powers. 

How you guys can place there contributions to Nagato's defeat on an equal plain is beyond me.

Itachi was clearly the star of that show. 

Everything he tried on his own against Nagato worked, and everything they tried on their own against Nagato failed. 

HA!


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## PoinT_BlanK (Sep 30, 2011)

Nagato got Christina Aguilera'd. He's a genie in a bottle.

Itachi moved on to the next one. I suggest some of you do the same.


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## Divinstrosity (Sep 30, 2011)

We can make this all very simple:

1. How many of Itachi's plans against Nagato were successfully executed?

2. How many of Bee's plans against Nagato were successfully executed?

3. How many of Naruto's plans against Nagato were successfully executed?


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## RockpiRate (Sep 30, 2011)

Prove that Itachi hate retarded people.  I don't say that Nagato is retarded, but he was in a baaaad condition. And still Shinra Tensei is the most powerful jutsu in Naruto.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 30, 2011)

Turrin said:


> @arednad
> 
> You assume the 6th Coffin is Kabuto's strongest summon, which is not confirmed yet, but even if it is Itachi does not have to defeat the summon to stop ET, he just has to last long enough to trick Kabuto inton ending ET. So no he doesn't have beat an ET stronger than Nagato to stop ET. Also Kabuto even with a stronger ET than Nagato may still be weaker than Nagato due to the weakness of ET, which is to target the summoner. On top of that Itachi is uniquely well suited to the task of stopping ET, since he is a Genjutsu specialist, has knowledge on ET, and even seems to have some sort of plan to taking it out.
> 
> ...



QFT 



> Why couldn't Naruto harm the Ceberus summon? He was not panicking yet.



How is this relevant AT ALL?Against Pein, did Naruto have to worry about Cerburus?*Nope.*Naruto not being able to kill Cerburus proves he can not harm Nagato?*Nope.*Then?



arednad said:


> Not answering the question. Why couldn't the others at least harm Nagato before they sealed him. We have seen several cases where a shinobi has forced the Edo to regenerate then someone else has sealed him. Yet in this case all the damage was done by Itachi.



Because they rushed in without thinking?It was pointed out a billion times already 

They didn't think of taking advantage of distractions, they did not even try.



> Also doesn't keeping your calm and analysing the situation correctly make you a stronger shinobi?



Stronger?No.He remains the same strength.He just knows exactly when his weapons will be of the best of use.



> Naruto fought both of them. He thinks Pain is much weaker.




Doesn't matter what Naruto "thinks"

And again, Pein doesn't lack proper mobility, Pein doesn't get defeated by a simple strike from Totsuka.



> When he absorbed Bee he could move, just not on the level of 3 of the fastest characters ever.



After he absorbed Bee ha barely moved.He could move yes, but not properly.






> Not the same level of praise.



Kabuto putting Nagato against Itachi, Bee and Naruto>the praise he gave Itachi.



> we know Nagato cannot counter the Totsuka sword and we are unsure about whether Itachi can counter CT.



No we DO NOT know that.Nagato wasn't in control of hismself and Itachi was covered by a dust cloud.



> This is before we discuss whether Amaterasu in itself is enough.



LOL, Amaterasu 

Nagato can sense it coming and he even made a comment "I see what you did" after seeing Itachi staring him ready to launch Amaterasu.Nagato can summon something to shield himself, activate the Preta sphere and wait or repel Itachi before Itachi hits him with Amatearsu.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Just look at this post about in the telegrams. See if it looks familiar.




*Spoiler*: __ 



LULZ, again i have to explain you the huge differences. 

Naruto just needed a lift.He didn't need distractions, he didn't need help with some ultra tech etc etc

And once again, he was still lucky.We know all too well how he fared against Nagato's chameleon.He has to thank Mu for not going invisible.




*Oh, and some things i forgot from before:*



> > Lets see Nagato forget all about Bee and how well the summons will fare if Bee tries to take them out with long-range attacks from some hiding spot.
> 
> 
> 
> Amaterasu is not a long ranged attack.



Wait, you call *that* close?

But these summons were irrelevant.I was talking about later.When Nagato had his hands full and forgot Itachi, allowing Itachi to strike the chameleon and King of Hell.



> He was stronger than Kakuzu as Kakashi. That was the point made. Once he sorted himself out, he outmanoeuvred and out thought Kakuzu easily



Kakashi was stronger than Kakuzu?And Naruto only outmaneuvered Kakuzu thanks to plot.



> Itachi did not resort to trump cards to beat Orochimaru the first time either he used a kunai and genjutsu.



The first time i doubt Oro was as strong and equal to Jiraiya that faced Pein.I doubt they were equal in their prime either.And your examples of their supposed equality are very, very poor.

Also, Deva pawned with little trouble, someone who was supposed to have surpassed Jiraiya, and his frogs (Naruto).



> Yes due to Itachi having insufficient stamina to last that long. However, in a one on one fight, stamina is not an issue and Itachi becomes more dangerous.



Not more dangerous than all Konoha had to offer and Zetsu still couldn't imagine Pein losing.

And stamina is very much an issue against a character that has about a billion summons-one invisible, can fly and keep his distance, has Asura who can missile and lazer spam, can absorb and repel any jutsu, can keep reviving himself etc etc




> Itachi warned him about his coming attacks and still landed hits with his fire shuriken. Bee got no where even when he attacked Itachi from behind whilst he was preoccupied with Naruto.



Itachi did not warn Bee about the shurikens.And Bee *made his hand giant* with the exact purpose of stopping them.That's why he was hit.


----------



## jimbob631 (Sep 30, 2011)

Divinstrosity said:


> Two of the strongest heroes who managed to not lay a finger on the guy, and almost got themselves killed.



Because they were that much weaker than Nagato



Divinstrosity said:


> Why do you guys keep bringing up the strength of Naruto and B when they were able to accomplish nothing against Nagato on their own?



It was their strength that allowed Nagato to be preoccupied in the first place, anyone else would have been dispatched of easily and Itachi would not have had the opportunity to attack.  It was their strength that allowed them to help take on CT.  



Divinstrosity said:


> THE ONE TIME they did something worthwhile, it took not only Itachi to plan it, and he had to calm one of them down.



And congratulations to him, doesn't mean he did it by himself.  



Divinstrosity said:


> I'll concede that the defeat wasn't PURELY Itachi's. However, the fact that Itachi showed the capacity to figure out Nagato's powers, within moments of seeing them, and had the actual power to take Nagato down - remember Naruto tried to kill the dog summon, and it rejuvenated; Itachi used Amaterasu on it, and it went away for good - it is hardly outside of the realm of logic to assume Itachi could do it alone.



Yeah it is seeing as Itachi's three attacks on Nagato were not straight up attacks, one was a chakra depleted Nagato who did not automatically absorb or repel amaterasu because Kabuto was more interested in figuring out why Itachi broke out, one was an attack that was only possible because he analyzed shared vision work on Bee and was allowed time and distance to attack while Kabuto had forgotten about him, and the other was aided by two of the strongest characters in the manga.  Make sense?



Divinstrosity said:


> Naruto and B, unlike Itachi, failed to figure out anything about Nagato's powers.



But this is about Nagato and Itachi not Naruto and Bee.  I believe its clear Itachi is superior to both right now, switch the scenario and I think Nagato would have been able to do the same.   



Divinstrosity said:


> How you guys can place there contributions to Nagato's defeat on an equal plain is beyond me.



I didn't, it still doesn't mean they did nothing, and they did more than be bystanders, there most important contributions were Naruto fighting against Nagato soul ripping him, Bee revealing the shared vision, and the addition of bijuudama and FRS.  



Divinstrosity said:


> Itachi was clearly the star of that show.



I would agree



Divinstrosity said:


> Everything he tried on his own against Nagato worked, and everything they tried on their own against Nagato failed.



Because he was the smarter shinobi and waited for a prime opportunity to attack, doesn't mean he's superior to Nagato.  

Also I see that Nagato repelling a sword is missing from your argument?  Does that not count as Itachi getting help?  Nagato got no such help from anyone else.


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## icemaster143 (Sep 30, 2011)

It's just so funny watching the claims by Itachi fans about how Itachi did some amazing strategy. 

He hid. 

He hid for his life while Naruto and Bee fought for their lives. He hid so long kabuto forgot he was there. 

Itachi only dared to stand in front of Nagato when he had Naruto and Bee to back him up. 

Even then he need the help of both Naruto and Bee, two of the strongest ninja in the manga to get past Nagato's next move.

When kishi wants some one to be the hero and prove that he is stronger than the person he is fighting he never has that person ask for help to get past that persons jutsu.


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## Turrin (Sep 30, 2011)

To further expand on my last post about Kabuto vs Itachi & 6th Coffin. I honestly do not believe the 6th Coffin is some ungodly strong character whose above the likes of Nagato or potentially even Muu, Sandaime Raikage, and Nindaime Mizukage. I think the 6th Coffin simply has special importance to Madara. Ether it reveals a secret about Madara's origins/plan or the Tensei itself has certain abilities that would be especially effective against Madara, and thus it would reveal a weakness in Madara's abilities that Madara does not want people to know about. 

In-fact I do not believe that the 6th coffin is even Kabuto's triumph card that he's been talking about, since Kabuto stated that as long as he has ET and that *other* Jutsu he is invincible, so I believe Kabuto's triumph card is a totally different Jutsu than ET, while the 6th Coffin is just Kabuto's leverage against Madara specifically. With that said if the 6th Coffin actually contains a Zombie Kabuto may summon it against Itachi since he has nother other ET's available to him by the time he fights Itachi and the 6th coffin zombie will probably be strong, but nothing unimaginable imo.

Furthermore I don't think the 6th Coffin is going to be the big threat Edo Tensei wise that Itachi is going to be defending the alliance against, I think the big threat is going to be Madara's Neo Pain Rikudo, which the alliance will be fighting and getting raped by while Itachi else where will be fighting Kabuto. Than I believe Itachi will initial try to end ET and defeat Kabuto, but he will ultimately only be able to end ET at the cost of his life saving the alliance from Neo Rikudo, but he will fail to kill Kabuto. I also don't think Kabuto is going to be some ultra strong shinobi when Itachi faces him.

The reason I believe the above is because it mirrors Minato's situation in the flashback to the night of the Kyuubi attack and in my mind Minato is suppose to be Naruto's ultimate benchmark and Madara is Naruto's ultimate enemy, while Itachi is Sasuke's ultimate benchmark and Kabuto is his ultimate enemy. The Madara Minato fought was strong but not nearly as strong as the one Naruto will have to face and it's going to be the same deal with Kabuto, he'll be strong, but he won't be as strong as the Kabuto Sasuke will later face, which is kind of reasonable since Itachi will be facing a Kabuto whose lost 90% of his Tensei army at this point, while Kishi will probably have Kabuto rebuild that army later on.


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## silenceofthelambs (Sep 30, 2011)

The sixth coffin is probably Madara, but not Madara himself.

(Kabuto could very well have summoned the power Madara lost at the Valley of the End, given his statement that he has "perfected [Edo Tensei]." His sixth coffin is a trump card, but the amount of leverage it possesses not as great as people think. Regardless, it is probably what Itachi will face.)

Tobi would still end up being Madara Uchiha in this situation, of course.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

icemaster143 said:


> It's just so funny watching the claims by Itachi fans about how Itachi did some amazing strategy.
> 
> He hid.
> 
> ...




you make a good comedian man +reps heauheuhaa


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## Mongolia (Sep 30, 2011)

Deal with the fact that Itachi made Nagato sip his ballsack like he's sipping his tea.
 get over it.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

^^^Same way Sasuke did to Itachi 
I'm sorry they're about as credible wins


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> ^^^Same way Sasuke did to Itachi
> I'm sorry they're about as credible wins



yeah Sasuke definitely outclassed itachi. yeah


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## BlinkST (Sep 30, 2011)

He did.. Just not long enough.


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## Vice (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> yeah Sasuke definitely outclassed itachi. yeah



About the same way Itachi outclassed Nagato.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

Vice said:


> About the same way Itachi outclassed Nagato.



but he owned him lol... we have canon tangible evidence to support this. Now do you have proof of nagato owning itachi, or just giving him a mere scratch to the face? didn't think so.


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## Shidoshi (Sep 30, 2011)

So...

...yeah, I was impressed.  Not everyone was going to be, though.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> yeah Sasuke definitely outclassed itachi. yeah



...I said it was about as credible because Sasuke didn't...



Vice said:


> About the same way Itachi outclassed Nagato.



See this guy gets it


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> but he owned him lol... we have canon tangible evidence to support this. Now do you have proof of nagato owning itachi, or just giving him a mere scratch to the face? didn't think so.



Dude...it was a 3 on 1...i'm pretty sure if my friends and I got together we could beat the crap outta Floyd Mayweather, I suppose that by your definition means I can solo Floyd Mayweather...because that is essentially what Itachi fans are saying.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> ...I said it was about as credible because Sasuke didn't...
> 
> 
> 
> See this guy gets it



Oh I got it alright Lol. But itachi fucked nagato's shit up. Sasuke never won that battle, well technically he did but it was handed to him like candy. Did nagato let itachi beat him? lol nope. It's not the same thing. The comparison is invalid.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> Dude...it was a 3 on 1...i'm pretty sure if my friends and I got together we could beat the crap outta Floyd Mayweather, I suppose that by your definition means I can solo Floyd Mayweather...because that is essentially what Itachi fans are saying.



2 bad itachi's allies didn't do anything. they were going to die hadn't itachi jumped in. As a matter of fact they became a burden to itachi more than help.
Itachi would never have let nagato make it as far as using CT. It's not in his char to let opponents go that far. 

There's also no proof he can't escape himself. For all we know he was worried about Killerbee and Naruto getting caught into that thing more than himself. He seemed to care of naruto's well being since he put his dreams in him.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Oh I got it alright Lol. But itachi fucked nagato's shit up. Sasuke never won that battle, well technically he did but it was handed to him like candy. Did nagato let itachi beat him? lol nope. It's not the same thing. The comparison is invalid.



It was a 3 on 1...and in regards to him vs Sasuke...Itachi was dead by the end of the fight was he not...I agree Sasuke did not legitimately beat him, Zetsu even eluded to the fact that Itachi coulda solo'd him at will...my point is winning is not just winning...Yes he beat Nagato, but because it was a 3 on 1 clue. 
Itachi makes it rather clear he could not deal with that jutsu alone.
If *WE *destroy it
Let's *ALL *hit it at once with our strongest long-range attacks.
He does not say hang back guys...i've got this...he asks for their strongest attacks...he has already formulated the plan to stop the jutsu but he can't do it without 2 people with equal if not greater offensive power.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> It was a 3 on 1...and in regards to him vs Sasuke...Itachi was dead by the end of the fight was he not...I agree Sasuke did not legitimately beat him, Zetsu even eluded to the fact that Itachi coulda solo'd him at will...my point is winning is not just winning...Yes he beat Nagato, but because it was a 3 on 1 clue.
> Itachi makes it rather clear he could not deal with that jutsu alone.
> If *WE *destroy it
> Let's *ALL *hit it at once with our strongest long-range attacks.
> He does not say hang back guys...i've got this...he asks for their strongest attacks...he has already formulated the plan to stop the jutsu but he can't do it without 2 people with equal if not greater offensive power.



That's the thing though, you never know if itachi could have escaped or found a way to tank chibaku tensei, not to mention he was immortal, but he had 2 other ninjas with him whom he had to protect and were vulnerable.

Itachi has chance of tanking chibaku tensei and breaking out with susano, however does naruto and killerbee have a shot at doing it too? no. So it was the smart thing to do, to save _everybody _by using their strongest attacks to destroy it.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> That's the thing though, you never know if itachi could have escaped or found a way to tank chibaku tensei, not to mention he was immortal, but he had 2 other ninjas with him whom he had to protect and were vulnerable.
> 
> Itachi has chance of tanking chibaku tensei and breaking out with susano, however does naruto and killerbee have a shot at doing it too? no. So it was the smart thing to do, to save _everybody _by using their strongest attacks to destroy it.



That's contradictory, you're saying because we didn't see Itachi in danger of chibaku that he could potentially tank it...yet bee who was never shown to be harmed by it either has no chance?

You say they were a hinderance it doesn't matter you're ducking the fact he NEEDED their best attacks to stop it. He states this. Also whether they were doing well or not they had his attentions, Itachi had an easy ride...he sat back while the others were being hurt then attacked Nagato from behind. Whether they were losing or not it is irrelevent they had him busy. Following that logic in dragonball z when piccolo bought time for goku to use the spirit bomb on frieza by getting his ass kicked he was a hinderance...you see that doesn't really work that way.


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## Jυstin (Sep 30, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> I understand what your saying about the blind spots but if Nagato didn't have two Jinchuriki in his hands he wouldn't be standing there doing nothing.  Thats the point I'm trying to make he would be summoning more summons or starting up CT.  Itachi was given an opportunity to analyze the situation because of Naruto and Bee.  Itachi would likely not even know about the shared vision until he saw Bee getting viewed by it.  Without that Nagato doesn't lose an arm.



Likewise, neither would Itachi. And it's not in Nagato's character to start CT immediately, just like it's not in Itachi's to start Susano'o from the start.

I agree that Itachi learned through Naruto and Bee's experience. That's what Kage/Karasu Bunshen are for. Itachi's really good at Bunshen feints. Hell, even Kakashi pulled one over on Pein with that Raibunshen. If Nagato pulled in Itachi's exploding clone like Deva Path tried pulling in Kakashi's Raibunshen, it could be over right there. Bunshens are also used to knowledge gathering. They attack, get beaten, while the real one analyzes the opponent.

If I'm smart enough to know this, and if Naruto is, then so is Itachi.



> The same amount of time in the manga passes for both, around three pages, if any of them is less time its the first as the second CT  they have a whole conversation.  The second one is also likely stronger seeing as it was indicated Nagato himself had stronger jutsu than through his proxies.



Time is relative in the Naruto manga. 3 pages can represent 3 seconds while 1 page could represent a minute. Still that CT looked smaller. If a Bijuudama didn't even scratch the CT that Nagato used through Pein, then adding 2 more attacks to it wouldn't do much better unless those attacks were leaps and bounds stronger than a Bijuudama.

Nagato has stronger techniques, but CT is still the same. It's a gravity technique that depends on the mass it's gathered around it.



> Again its not, Hinata never was great with Jyuuken, Nagato was at one point someone with at least decent mobility.



But he still lost it. Also back then, Nagato wasn't as skilled with his current overpowered techniques, if he even had them back then. Past has no bearing on the present. If Itachi became horrible at using Genjutsu, no one could still call him the greatest because at one point he used to be a master at it. Hinata _could_ be that great with Jyuuken (and now pretty much is). The point is that improvement and strengthening can be made.



> It still doesn't mean he's at full chakra capacity.



And frankly, this means nothing. You're trying to say his chakra was too low to do anything, when it obviously wasn't.



> No but there probably just as good if not a ton better seeing as there metal, I haven't noticed Nagato using seals for his jutsu except for summoning so arms don't really matter much.



Chibaku Tensei.



> It might do some, he can also just absorb it though.



If Preta Path's absorption ability is a barrier that absorbs Jutsu, then I don't think so. In any case, he would be taking damage before he tries it, if it's intended to burn him.



> The time it would take for Itachi to use his technique would be enough for it to already be full of debris.  Go back and look at the manga, it does it in literally a panel, and we've already seen how strong attacks do against CT.



It didn't appear to take to long for him to use it. The most time it'd take would be traveling to the core, which should be faster than the debris if there is already momentum behind it.

Literally a panel, you say? Doesn't look that covered and fully formed to me. I think you're overestimating how fast this technique builds its mass.



> Sage was never shown with this the Juubi was.



I got the thought from this.

Not only the Sharin'negan, but also the fact that the Sage was also Uchiha, part. We see the Rin'negan obviously depicted with tomoe. 6 of them. Different than the Juubi's 9. I don't think they were the Juubi's anyway. I'm pretty sure that picture is depicting the Sage's control over it, if his dominant stance with his staff held up in a "victory" pose, with his back to the Juubi, is any indicator.



畜生道 said:


> "It worked" is not enough for Nagato to figure it out.Itachi staring him like that on the other hand..



Itachi said that after he had attacked the Cerberus instead of Naruto. I wouldn't put it past Nagato being able to put two and two together.



> It may look like it to you.To me it just looks like he isn't having the best of times.Amaterasu isn't a pleasant experience.When there's a "Huh?" moment there's actually a "Huh?", "Oh, shit!" or at the very least "!!" (like the two times Itachi surprised him with Susano.)



Facial expressions should still count. Or be taken into account. Kishi's not that bad of an artist.



> Kabuto: *He's contradicting the orders from my talisman?!*
> 
> But Kabuto didn't realize that by stabbing himself, Hanzo would technically be attacking his enemy as well.



I'm not sure if that's a technicality or not. Perhaps having a strong enough will allowed himself to go against his orders to attack them and rather to attack himself. Yes, technically it would be attacking them because Hanzou knows it is deadly to them, but he also knew it would prevent him from doing anything.

It's not the first time the technique's power has been broken. Some managed to release themselves, though they ultimately died in doing so. But I'll agree that Kabuto would have ordered them not to attack fellow Edos under Kabuto's control. Itachi's no longer one of them though. He's not part of the Jutsu. He freed himself from it.



> I guess..



I mean, who would seriously think Itachi would try to kill Naruto instead of choosing another harmless Katon from dodgable distance?

Itachi wouldn't say, "I'll trust Sasuke to you Naruto." and then go, "Just kidding. Lol die.".

Kabuto definitely has some hand in it. The defending might be automatic, but not the attacking.



> And it will start to get absorbed.Besides, there's still summoning something to be in Amaterasu's way instead of Nagato.



That depends. The absorption seems to be like a forcefield formed around Nagato. If Amaterasu is formed behind it, on Nagato, it probably won't get absorbed. It absorbs Jutsu that make contract with it. I'm not sure if being behind it is making contact with it. 

Or it might not be a force field, but he might have to absorb it when it tries to make contact. I don't know if he can just "keep the absorption up" the entire time.

And summons would work if he is behind them. I don't see them being used in response to Amaterasu though, because by then it's too late 



> But.. Nagato doesn't have to be perfect at everything to have proper mobility  Is Naruto perfect at everything just because he has Bijuu-stamina and hax jutsus like Nagato and on top of that hax speed and strength?
> 
> Nobody's talking about Nagato improving and having above average speed or anything.Just the normal mobility he already had.You don't have to be perfect for that.



No, I just mean no ninja is perfect and lack in some areas. Even Gaara never moves when he fights  Nagato just lacks that ability now, and it cost him when Itachi was able to get past his powers to the point where his mobility became an issue somewhere in that fight. He'd be better if he improved his mobility no doubt. I think the same for Itachi if he improved his stamina, which is why I don't call him having less or equal stamina to old Sarutobi a handicap


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## DarkRasengan (Sep 30, 2011)

Itachi vs nagato didnt happen, Naruto and bee with itachi vs nagato did.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> That's contradictory, you're saying because we didn't see Itachi in danger of chibaku that he could potentially tank it...yet bee who was never shown to be harmed by it either has no chance?
> 
> You say they were a hinderance it doesn't matter you're ducking the fact he NEEDED their best attacks to stop it. He states this. Also whether they were doing well or not they had his attentions, Itachi had an easy ride...he sat back while the others were being hurt then attacked Nagato from behind. Whether they were losing or not it is irrelevent they had him busy. Following that logic in dragonball z when piccolo bought time for goku to use the spirit bomb on frieza by getting his ass kicked he was a hinderance...you see that doesn't really work that way.



Killerbee hasn't shown anything that's capable of breaking out of Chiibaku tensei or tanking CT, as a matter of fact he was scared and not too confident in his abilities. I think that speaks for itself.

While Itachi's susano has shown to tank even Kirin, a real natural element and that's without the shield since susano wasn't even fully materialized then. It's not really a stretch to assume complete susano + shield can keep Itachi guarded, at least for enough time for itachi to come up with a plan and have nagato defeated. This is itachi we're talking about and no matter the circumstances he'd prevail. This should be accepted since his relevance > nagato's ten fold. And their powers are equal in a sense so no doubt itachi wins.

Whether naruto and killerbee kept him busy or not is not the issue because Nagato had those 2 summons there for a reason, to keep watch and make sure nagato was guarded and not be ambushed, but Itachi was too good and managed to find a blindspots to the summon and have them defeated.

This is something b and naruto couldn't do.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 30, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> Itachi vs nagato didnt happen, Naruto and bee with itachi vs nagato did.



Itachi vs Nagato and Bee and Naruto being hinderance and in Itachi's way is more accurate.


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## Vice (Sep 30, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Itachi vs Nagato and Bee and Naruto being hinderance and in Itachi's way is more accurate.



Giving Itachi the opening to blind-side and then helping nullify an attack he couldn't stop by himself isn't in the way.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

Vice said:


> Giving Itachi the opening to blind-side and then helping nullify an attack he couldn't stop by himself isn't in the way.



Give itachi and opening? _Give_?


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## Vice (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Give itachi and opening? _Give_?



S'wat I said.


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## Rosencrantz (Sep 30, 2011)

Of course it wasn't. It proved Itachi is good at ambushing a shinobi that is focused on the two strongest jinchuriki. It was cool but most high level ninja can surprise another higher level ninja that is focused on Naruto and Killer Bee.


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## Deshi Basara (Sep 30, 2011)

> Itachi said that after he had attacked the Cerberus instead of Naruto. I wouldn't put it past Nagato being able to put two and two together.



Yes and if Cerburus getting hit didn't ring a bell in Nagato's mind i doubt "it worked" did the trick.



> Facial expressions should still count. Or be taken into account. Kishi's not that bad of an artist.



If you say so.Like i said, it looked like he was having an unpleasant time to me.Not shock or surprise.



> I'm not sure if that's a technicality or not. Perhaps having a strong enough will allowed himself to go against his orders to attack them and rather to attack himself. Yes, technically it would be attacking them because Hanzou knows it is deadly to them, but he also knew it would prevent him from doing anything.



Yeah, many possibilities.Im sticking with "Hanzo could choose how to attack and he choose the one way that it would end in him get sealed."



> It's not the first time the technique's power has been broken. Some managed to release themselves, though they ultimately died in doing so.



The only one i remember breaking free was Itachi and Hanzo is arguable.



> But I'll agree that Kabuto would have ordered them not to attack fellow Edos under Kabuto's control. Itachi's no longer one of them though. He's not part of the Jutsu. He freed himself from it.



As i've said before, i doubt Kabuto made sure to add an exception to the rule.



> I mean, who would seriously think Itachi would try to kill Naruto instead of choosing another harmless Katon from dodgable distance?



If he was given an order to kill, i think like Hanzo.He choose the only good option=MS.The crow was set to react as soon as he sees Itachi's MS.



> Or it might not be a force field, but he might have to absorb it when it tries to make contact. I don't know if he can just "keep the absorption up" the entire time.



yes i guess we don't know.



> And summons would work if he is behind them. I don't see them being used in response to Amaterasu though, because by then it's too late



Yes, i meant prior to Amaterasu hitting not after.



> Even Gaara never moves when he fights



Actually he does.Against Deidara and in his latest fight.He is not like Nagato to outright lack mobility.He just *sometimes* doesn't use it much.



> He'd be better if he improved his mobility no doubt.



I never said or implied that he would've improved in that area.Just have it like he did before.


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## JPongo (Sep 30, 2011)

All these what-ifs for Itachi is ridiculous.

The manga is directly implicating that it took the strength of the two strongest jins and Itachi to take on the perfect (but stationary and noob-controlled) Nagato.

Nagato would have seriously raped Itachi 1v1.  Kabuto didn't even care about Itachi and thought he was a nuisance but things happened the way they did coz the jins were the focus of Nagato's attacks, NEVER Itachi until Nagato unleashed CT.

Those initial blinding kunais from Itachi would have been useless if Nagato was fighting him alone.  Susano'o would have been defeated with CT in due time.

Nagato >>>>>> Itachi.  Kishi provided why Nagato was the AK leader and why Itachi is such a skillful shinobi as well.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

JPongo said:


> *Nagato would have seriously raped Itachi 1v1.*



The same Nagato that was made into a cripple by Hanzo near instantly? That Nagato stand up to itachi? Heuaheuah yeah yeah.

Nagato is vulnerable, and itachi is a dangerous predator. Nagato doesn't stand a god damn chance, not in a crippled form anyway lol. Maybe as Pain he'd have a better chance but as Nagato?  haaaaaah ahh man.

Only uchiha with Mangekyo sharingan _could_ beat itachi.


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## Vice (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Only uchiha with Mangekyo sharingan _could_ beat itachi.



And Nagato with CT.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> The same Nagato that was made into a cripple by Hanzo near instantly? That Nagato stand up to itachi? Heuaheuah yeah yeah.
> 
> Nagato is vulnerable, and itachi is a dangerous predator. Nagato doesn't stand a god damn chance, not in a crippled form anyway lol. Maybe as Pain he'd have a better chance but as Nagato?  haaaaaah ahh man.
> 
> Only uchiha with Mangekyo sharingan _could_ beat itachi.



...That was a Nagato when he was far younger and less powerful and no Hanzo didn't cripple him the summon did...
Hanzo you mean the guy who was beating the sannin? 
Nagato is more powerful then Pein...Naruto even says this clue.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

Vice said:


> And Nagato with CT.



Nagato gets tsukuyomid from the start. He'd be done.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> ...That was a Nagato when he was far younger and less powerful and no Hanzo didn't cripple him the summon did...
> Hanzo you mean the guy who was beating the sannin?
> Nagato is more powerful then Pein...Naruto even says this clue.



Nagato is more powerful but he isn't as effective. With 6 bodies he can do 6 moves in 1 turn. Nagato even said if it wasn't for the pain secret, he would have lost against jiraiya. Implying jiraiya > crippled nagato.

It was Hanzo's fire element jutsu that crippled nagato dude, not his summon. He can't move normally because hanzo fucked his shit up. Mobility


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Nagato is more powerful but he isn't as effective. With 6 bodies he can do 6 moves in 1 turn. Nagato even said if it wasn't for the pain secret, he would have lost against jiraiya. Implying jiraiya > crippled nagato.



And Itachi said that Jiraiya was stronger then him and Kisame combined


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## Gilgamesh (Sep 30, 2011)

Itachi vs Nagato?

It was Naruto, Bee and Itachi vs Nagato

Itachi can't beat Nagato on his own


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> And Itachi said that Jiraiya was stronger then him and Kisame combined



and you believe that right?


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> and you believe that right?



You believe Nagato is? Thats rather selective you can't pick and chose what is correct...either both are speculation or potentially wrong and not sound or they're both true...you can't say one is definately wrong and use the other as evidence.


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## T-Bag (Sep 30, 2011)

HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil said:


> You believe Nagato is? Thats rather selective you can't pick and chose what is correct...either both are speculation or potentially wrong and not sound or they're both true...you can't say one is definately wrong and use the other as evidence.



Are you fucking serious right now? Are you really? Before I continue any further with you, I have to know if you can comprehend truth from lie. Are you able to tell them apart?


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## Vermin (Sep 30, 2011)

*Oh Brother*

I know I'm gonna receive some hate but here goes nothing...


*Spoiler*: __ 



There are only two possible reasons I can think of why many people didn't like the fight,

A) Itachi, Naruto, and Karabi... actually Itachi were either hyped or dehyped in the fight. This caused many fans (even me) to be pissed. I mean with all the new feats they have shown you think Naruto and B would be just a little more helpful in the fight. Not to mention Nagato's handicap..

B) Many people expected more. Actually I think this applies to me. I mean like Itachi took out the MOTHERFUCKING  *King _ of _ Hell*  _with _  just _ a  _kunai!! I wanted Nagato to show more justus. What? He is the Rinn'egan master after all and according to Ikibi he could use any technique he wanted...

But in the end, the fight was really good to me. Plus the allied shinobi forces have a HaxUchiha on thier side now. (Though I don't see how that will help much with two EmsOverHypedUchihas)


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Sep 30, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> Are you fucking serious right now? Are you really? Before I continue any further with you, I have to know if you can comprehend truth from lie. Are you able to tell them apart?



Are you fucking serious?! How can you use one as fact and dismiss another similar statement? Either way its a moot point he bested Bee and Naruto in an emaciated state...or rather he began in an emaciated state and was able to regain health.


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## Ghost of Madara (Sep 30, 2011)

Since Nagato fans persist in claiming Itachi needed both Bee and Naruto in order to defeat Nagato despite the manga never stating such, then using the same logic, it's confirmed that it required the entire Kage summit to defeat Taka Sasuke.

It would seem that Taka Sasuke's feat is leagues above Nagato.


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## flamesNfrost (Sep 30, 2011)

Ghost of Madara said:


> Since Nagato fans persist in claiming Itachi needed both Bee and Naruto in order to defeat Nagato despite the manga never stating such, then using the same logic, it's confirmed that it required the entire Kage summit to defeat Taka Sasuke.
> 
> It would seem that Taka Sasuke's feat is leagues above Nagato.



That is not speculation. Thats manga fact.  Itachi would not have requested bee and naruto to make use of their STRONGEST jutsu. 

Speculation is when you have people say itachi did not need them.



People seem to ignore that nagato was an edo. 

If itachi was an edo... Would he have been able to use totsuka? He wouldn't because it was kabuto controlling him and he had no idea about its existence. 

Which means nagatos actions and strategy would have been completely different had he not been an edo.

What if gedo mazo were there? What if nagato was mobile?

Name me one ninja that can solo 3 top tier ninja standing in one spot...

Actually i believe nagato could have pulled it off in that very spot had he not been an edo and had access to gedo.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 30, 2011)

Ghost of Madara said:


> Since Nagato fans persist in claiming Itachi needed both Bee and Naruto in order to defeat Nagato despite the manga never stating such, then using the same logic, it's confirmed that it required the entire Kage summit to defeat Taka Sasuke.
> 
> It would seem that Taka Sasuke's feat is leagues above Nagato.



no, Sasuke was getting utterly destroyed by raikage and ran to fight another person to get wrecked then saved like he always is plus sasuke didnt win a fight at the kage summit lol

Nagato was fighting all three and couldnt walk and was still throwing the 8 + 9 tails around, then was stabbed by a sword he when he couldnt even take a step, so how is itachis feat even good

I never said it wasnt a feat but stabbing a man who cant walk with a huge ass sword, i hope you can hit


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## CrownSharingan (Oct 1, 2011)

Indeed. Nagato is utter crap. He can't even walk.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

JPongo said:


> All these what-ifs for Itachi is ridiculous.
> 
> The manga is directly implicating that it took the strength of the two strongest jins and Itachi to take on the perfect (but stationary and noob-controlled) Nagato.
> 
> ...



Nagato lasted a chapter when Bee and Naruto was in Itachi's way. If it was Itachi alone, Itachi would instantly use totsuka to seal Nagato.

Kishi only wanted to show off Prime Nagato before he got trashed by Itachi.

The moment Kabuto said: Itachi is on another level from the rest - He knew he had to kill Itachi first. Kabuto don't even care about the jinchurikis. He is not going to let jinchurikis live so that Madara can genjutsu the whole world. Kabuto has his own plans.


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## Ricardox (Oct 1, 2011)

CrownSharingan said:


> Indeed. Nagato is utter crap. He can't even walk.




Sorry but, actually he could.


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## JPongo (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Nagato lasted a chapter when Bee and Naruto was in Itachi's way. If it was Itachi alone, *Itachi would instantly use totsuka to seal Nagato.*
> Kishi only wanted to show off Prime Nagato before he got trashed by Itachi.
> 
> The moment Kabuto said: Itachi is on another level from the rest - He knew he had to kill Itachi first. Kabuto don't even care about the jinchurikis. He is not going to let jinchurikis live so that Madara can genjutsu the whole world. Kabuto has his own plans.



No.  Nagato with shinra tensei blows Itachi away (susano'o, swords and all), chameleons his way quickly to Itachi and soul sucks him.

Wait...that did happen to the 2 jins and fodderized them.

And some here actually think it won't happen to Itachi the same way if it was 1v1?

Itachi can thank the jins for keeping him "alive" as an edo.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Oct 1, 2011)

T-Bag said:


> They are not similar, just wtf do you read? ITACHI LIED. He had a reason too. Did you forget his mission so quickly, his true persona? Jiraiya couldn't beat half a man from akatsuki let alone 3+ and you're saying I should trust someone who did nothing but like in part 1 (itachi)? Are you _that _stupid?
> 
> Now does Nagato have a reason to lie as to why jiraiya would beat him? No. I thought so.



Please do not call me stupid when you're entire argument is baseless speculation. Itachi asked for help against Nagato FACT. 3 people attacked Chibaku not one FACT. Itachi wasn't the focus of his offence FACT. You ducked the DBZ analagy where I compared it to Piccolo buying time for Goku...following the logic that getting beaten up is a burden the Piccolo was...the fact is they bought him time, and got him space. It was a 3 on 1 and Itachi clearly needed them...but he can solo...what is your argument? That despite the fact he NEEDS their combined attacks he coud solo?

As for Jiraiya...who cares...Nagato bested 2 opponents vastly superior to Jiraiya in his emaciated state another fact you're ducking so his statement doesn't wash. As you're saying he has no reason to lie, but then he is not infallable that is the point I was making...why should his guesswork be his benchmark when his hype and feats say otherwise...

I am flabbergasted at how people can say a man who clearly needed backup could beat the person he needed backup to beat...What did Itachi actually do...annalyse that...he attacked him from behind when he was fighting the other two...doing better then Itachi did against Bee alone I will add...then he ASKED for their strongest attacks to end the jusu...attacking someone from behind while already in a fight...lets not act like he was saving them, they were in peril a while before stepping in far more likely he was waiting for an opening he would otherwise not have.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

JPongo said:


> No.  Nagato with shinra tensei blows Itachi away (susano'o, swords and all), chameleons his way quickly to Itachi and soul sucks him.
> 
> Wait...that did happen to the 2 jins and fodderized them.
> 
> ...



You compare Bee and Naruto to Itachi in this fight ? They got fodderized, Itachi fodderized Nagato. If Shinra tensei can blow Itachi away with susanoo on why didn't he do it then ? Cause Itachi instantly sealed Nagato. It would happend faster if Kishi didn't want to show off "Prime Nagato".

The only way to stop Edo Nagato is to seal him. Itachi would not run around attacking something that regenerates. He would instantly seal Nagato wasn't it for showing off Prime Nagato.

So in 1v1 fight Itachi >> Nagato


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## Jizznificent (Oct 1, 2011)

Jizznificent said:


> itachi vs nagato thread? this. won't. end well.


*sigh*... you guys are making it too easy.


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## HiddenCornsHandsomeDevil (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> You compare Bee and Naruto to Itachi in this fight ? They got fodderized, Itachi fodderized Nagato. If Shinra tensei can blow Itachi away with susanoo on why didn't he do it then ? Cause Itachi instantly sealed Nagato. It would happend faster if Kishi didn't want to show off "Prime Nagato".
> 
> The only way to stop Edo Nagato is to seal him. Itachi would not run around attacking something that regenerates. He would instantly seal Nagato wasn't it for showing off Prime Nagato.
> 
> So in 1v1 fight Itachi >> Nagato



...Bee was fighting on a relative par to Itachi...Nagato fodderised them both, says alot. How would Itachi seal him? By using susano? because the only reason he was able to activate it was because Nagato was busy attacking the other two...he proved he cannot deal with CT without help so as soon as he does activate susano he does get blown away...however you spin it he had help...whether they were being fodderised or not is completely irrelevent they had Nagato's attentions giving him time to activate Susano. You also forget he was 1 3rd of the attack how you go from being 1 3rd of an attack to being able to solo I don't know.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> If Shinra tensei can blow Itachi away with susanoo on why didn't he do it then ?



Are you serious?Kabuto controlled Nagato didn't blow away Itachi cause he didn't even try.Itachi was hidden in the dust cloud.Kabuto couldn't see him coming in time.



> So in 1v1 fight Nagato>> Itachi



fixed 


In one on one fight, Nagato doesn't have his hands full with Narutos and Bees and doesn't ignore Itachi giving him opportunities to take out the summons Chameleon and King of Hell that compensate for his mobility troubles, unnoticed.And doesn't let his bird and Cerburus be taken out because Kabuto didn't expect Itachi to break free.


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## Jυstin (Oct 1, 2011)

It's not too hard to believe. At the absolute very least, Itachi is on par with Jiraiya, who was said to be able to have defeated Nagato if he'd known his secret. Itachi was able to analyze Nagato's Path powers even quicker than Jiraiya, and get past them more successfully. Itachi possesses POWERFUL one shots as well.

This is Itachi. Sasuke is a beast. He might not be the best of them, but he's a beast. He was able to damage Raikage, dodge him even. He took off his left arm, which obviously no one had been able to do before. He still lost, but put up a hell of a good fight. He would have turned the Hachibi into ash had he not cut off that tentacle to escape with. Would have killed a Bijuu. He even defeated Deidara in one of his few legitimate fights. Deidara, a beast from Akatsuki. Sasuke even had more tricks up his sleeve. Sasuke is simply a beast.

Now against this beast, Itachi was _horribly_ sick. His insides were shot at that point, to the point where he died from it a few minutes later, suffering a heart attack that was only delayed by medicine. He probably should have been dead before the fight started if he hadn't taken it. Then he was also so nearly blind that he could barely see Sasuke and eventually did go blind shortly after.

Just imagine how bad his sight was and how bad his internal condition was. Even despite all of this, *he still had to hold himself back in order to give this beast, Sasuke, a challenge that still almost killed him in a fight that Itachi was TRYING TO LOSE.* This was also a planned fight. Despite Sasuke's power, the fight progressed exactly as Itachi had planned it, right down to Sasuke's own actions. He'd even implemented a specific two-steps-ahead plan, one involving an implanted Amaterasu, and the other an implanted Shisui's eye in case the Amaterasu failed. In both cases, Itachi predicted Madara would show Sasuke his Sharingan and that Sasuke would use his eyes for EMS and face Naruto with it. This is a testament to his intelligence.

Do not forget how powerful Sasuke was.

That is the depth of Itachi's power. That is almost unfathomable. At the age Nagato was when he was still training with Jiraiya, Itachi at the same age had taken down a Sannin as if he were... inconsequential. I find it impressive that Nagato actually reached Itachi's level. Yeah he had those eyes to help, yes, but it's a damn impressive thing to achieve. Itachi is a monster. At the same young age, Itachi's feats had eclipsed Nagato's, but he ended up in the same tier. That should speak a lot about Nagato's power. He's not invincible, nor is he an actual god, but he is in the top tier.

Given all this, it's a travesty to question that Itachi is on the same level. In an unrestricted Nagato vs Itachi debate, I wouldn't really be able to participate. I couldn't say who would win. The answer is as easy as a coin toss for me.



> ...Bee was fighting on a relative par to Itachi...Nagato fodderised them both, says alot.



Itachi got behind Bee before he could react, though Bee was still able to react. Bee then tried to slice Itachi in half, but Itachi instantly jumped back and immediately started a counter Jutsu in mid-dodge, finishing the Jutsu at an amazing speed, before he traveled more than a meter in his high speed dodge, and executed the Jutsu so fast that Bee didn't have time to dodge. Itachi then initiated a Genjutsu in the middle of all of this, which Bee managed to break at the last second. Itachi displayed some level of higher skill and finesse. He wasn't even touched in that skirmish, while demonstrating amazing speed, both physically and in Jutsu casting, and intelligence and skill in being able to combine a dodge with a counter attack so it couldn't be evaded even by one of Bee's speed, and implementing Genjutsu in the middle.

When it came down to trying to rescue Naruto, Nagato fodderized Bee with shared vision while Itachi succeeded by expertly getting around that shared vision. Bee was about to be blown to kingdom come, so I wouldn't put him on Itachi's level, though the two could still go toe to toe.



畜生道 said:


> Yes and if Cerburus getting hit didn't ring a bell in Nagato's mind i doubt "it worked" did the trick.



That's why I believe he did manage it, cause he did say, "I see what you did." after all.

Nagato might not have displayed Itachi's kind of intelligence or analytical skills, but he's certainly intelligent.



> If you say so.Like i said, it looked like he was having an unpleasant time to me.Not shock or surprise.



I kinda wonder if Edo Tensei have any feeling at all though. They don't seem to be phased by pain.



> Yeah, many possibilities.Im sticking with "Hanzo could choose how to attack and he choose the one way that it would end in him get sealed."
> 
> The only one i remember breaking free was Itachi and Hanzo is arguable.
> 
> As i've said before, i doubt Kabuto made sure to add an exception to the rule.



Sasori and Sai's brother also did by "freeing their souls".

Think of it this way. This is how my logic sees it. I don't see the Edo's orders as pre-programmed orders, like not to attack other Edo Tensei. They are under Kabuto's control. More like they are bound to his will. If he wills them to attack, they attack, and if not, they don't. That's why they can be talking and not doing anything and then suddenly attack.

It wouldn't make sense if they were programmed not to fight other Edo Tensei. I think Kabuto is willing them to attack the enemy, whoever it is. If they were only bound not to attack Edo Tensei, then they would be attacking the Zetsu clones without prejudice, and Madara as well, and if opposing Edo Tensei were to come in, then they wouldn't fight them because they're Edo Tensei.

Kabuto's not that stupid. He's fairly intelligent if it's evident in the way he's cautiously dealing with Madara. He'd have considered this, that the army isn't just Edo Tensei. The Edo Tensei are under his control, his will, and they attack who he deems as an enemy, and don't attack allies, Edo Tensei or not, even if the Edo summon wants to. However, they are programmed to defend automatically.

It's just like Susano'o. Some were wondering if it had shared vision to be able to fight while Itachi was blind. It's more like, Susano'o obeys Itachi's will. Susano'o does not act on its own, otherwise it would attack people both friend and foe. It attacks at the user's will, but defends against anything, so if it fails to protect its user, it means it _couldn't_ defend against the attack, not that the user failed to will it. If it depended on the user's will to defend them, it wouldn't be an "absolute defense".

In the same way, the Edo Tensei are bound to Kabuto's control and attack when he wills them to, and use what attacks he picks, otherwise they could choose to do useless Jutsu in that situation. They use the Jutsu he wants them to. Some can fight this, however. And so he puts them fully under his control. I don't think this means he controls them like a video game character. I think "full control" mode is akin to when Orochimaru had full control of Hashirama and Tobirama. Under full control mode, the become mindless killing machines who go all out against the opponent, which would explain Nagato going right into Chibaku Tensei right away. Kabuto's mind would be too stretched to personally control Nagato's movements while being in control of the others as well.

Anyway, the moment Itachi freed himself, he became an enemy to Kabuto's army. This should make him fair game for them to attack. I can't see Kabuto's control and the way the Edo Summons work being different than this. Otherwise, it'd be full of holes. They are under Kabuto's control and don't attack unless he wills them to with said control, and he won't make them attack fellow Edos, Zetsu clones, or Madara.

Still, none of this would affect that Edos are programmed to defend against offensive attacks if able to.



> If he was given an order to kill, i think like Hanzo.He choose the only good option=MS.The crow was set to react as soon as he sees Itachi's MS.



You have a point here, though still I don't believe Kabuto lets the Edo summons choose their attacks. Kabuto and Itachi would both have a reason to go for using MS, but Kabuto would have another reason not to allow the summons to choose their attacks, because they could use inopportune attacks to make it easy for the opponents.



> Yes, i meant prior to Amaterasu hitting not after.



In this case I doubt it'd be used then. Well actually... it is good for getting rid of summons. Sharingan Genjutsu works too. Either way, they'd be something to deal with.



> Actually he does.Against Deidara and in his latest fight.He is not like Nagato to outright lack mobility.He just *sometimes* doesn't use it much.



This is true. Nagato even used it in that fight. Itachi didn't help him walk/climb/jump onto his bird summon, and he managed to leap at Bee as you pointed out.

Possibly he doesn't lack mobility, but rather can't use it much. It puts too much strain so he has to rest between or something. Or Kishi being inconsistent.



> I never said or implied that he would've improved in that area.Just have it like he did before.



That's what I mean. Him improving his mobility to get it back to the level it used to be. Skill levels aren't set in Naruto. Without regular use and practice, well you saw Tsunade when she first appeared


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Are you serious?Kabuto controlled Nagato didn't blow away Itachi cause he didn't even try.Itachi was hidden in the dust cloud.Kabuto couldn't see him coming in time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





When Kabuto said Itachi was on a different level from the rest, he knew he had to get rid of Itachi. The other two was just hinderance. That's why he tried to use them so Itachi had to save them.

In a real one on one fight without Kishi's plot. Nagato won't be showing his Prime powers. Meaning Itachi will start right off the bat with sealing Nagato instantly. He is not gonna use meaningless attacks just so Nagato can regnerate. He just seals him from the start. 

Itachi would murder Nagato. If it wasn't for "Prime Nagato show off chapter".

Yeah what a weak Neg, not even any comments.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> When Kabuto said Itachi was on a different level from the rest, he knew he had to get rid of Itachi. The other two was just hinderance. That's why he tried to use them so Itachi had to save them.



Gotta love that fanfiction, eh?

Kabuto said "no ordinary man".And Nrauto and Bee were his targets from the begging.He was planning to kill them and then revive them.As for Itachi:

"Wasn't it anything else i was supposed to do?"


"*Oh, yes, one more person joined my capture list now.*"




> In a real one on one fight without Kishi's plot. Nagato won't be showing his Prime powers. Meaning Itachi will start right off the bat with sealing Nagato instantly. He is not gonna use meaningless attacks just so Nagato can regnerate. He just seals him from the start.
> 
> Itachi would murder Nagato. If it wasn't for "Prime Nagato show off chapter".



Again with the fanfic.You have no proof whatsoever that Nagato can't react if he's completely focused on Itachi and Itachi isn't coming from a dust cloud.



> Yeah what a weak Neg, not even any comments.



Figured not to waste any time considering i was gonna respond to you anyway 

Oh and lol at weak revenge negs


----------



## Sniffers (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> "Wasn't it anything else i was supposed to do?"
> 
> 
> "*Oh, yes, one more person joined my capture list now.*"



Not trying to get involved into the discussion, but wan't that line a mistranslation? 

I thought it was like Kabuto asking himself what else he had to do after capturing Naruto... enter Killer B, the other target. Then when Itachi saves both Kabuto doesn't say that Itachi also was added to his capture list, but rather that he can capture them [the Jin + maybe Itachi] with CT as well, because the first method failed.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> Itachi got behind Bee before he could react



In the translation thread, translator clarified that Bee was aware of Itachi the whole time.



> but Itachi instantly jumped back and immediately started a counter Jutsu in mid-dodge, finishing the Jutsu at an amazing speed, before he traveled more than a meter in his high speed dodge,* and executed the Jutsu so fast that Bee didn't have time to dodge.*



Bee made his hand bigger with the exact purpose of tanking that attack.



> That's why I believe he did manage it, cause he did say, "I see what you did." after all.



Yes after Itachi's stare.And Nagato could even sense Amaterasu coming, come on..



> Nagato might not have displayed Itachi's kind of intelligence or analytical skills, but he's certainly intelligent.



Yet you refuse to allow the possibility that he might've actually known Itachi was gonna hit him with Amaterasu..




> I kinda wonder if Edo Tensei have any feeling at all though. They don't seem to be phased by pain.



I vaguely remember some them going "ugh" when hit.But at the very least, having less than pleasant times like Hanzo when he stabs himself:

*Look at his impression as he stabs himself.*

Sasori and Sai's brother also did by "freeing their souls".



> Think of it this way. This is how my logic sees it. I don't see the Edo's orders as pre-programmed orders, like not to attack other Edo Tensei. They are under Kabuto's control. More like they are bound to his will. If he wills them to attack, they attack, and if not, they don't. That's why they can be talking and not doing anything and then suddenly attack.
> 
> You have a point here, though still I don't believe Kabuto lets the Edo summons choose their attacks.



It's not about what you believe.It was stated by the man himself:

"I'll keep them bound enough to follow orders and leave them to their own devises beyond that."



> It wouldn't make sense if they were programmed not to fight other Edo Tensei. I think Kabuto is willing them to attack the enemy, whoever it is. If they were only bound not to attack Edo Tensei, then they would be attacking the Zetsu clones without prejudice, and Madara as well, and if opposing Edo Tensei were to come in, then they wouldn't fight them because they're Edo Tensei.



Or like i said about Hanzo and Itachi.They have their orders to kill ceratain opponent and they can only choose how to.



> Kabuto's not that stupid. He's fairly intelligent if it's evident in the way he's cautiously dealing with Madara. He'd have considered this, that the army isn't just Edo Tensei. The Edo Tensei are under his control, his will, and they attack who he deems as an enemy, and don't attack allies, Edo Tensei or not, even if the Edo summon wants to. However, they are programmed to defend automatically.



Kabuto will never restrict his Edos from attacking Zetsus or Tobi.He is in it for himself.He wants to fuck up both sides.



> . They are under Kabuto's control and don't attack unless he wills them to with said control, and he won't make them attack fellow Edos, Zetsu clones, or Madara.



Even if that was the case, Kabuto was too busy wondering how the fuck Itachi got out to "will" Nagato into attacking Itachi.And he didn't give a darn about Nagato until he knew what happened.




			
				Sniffers said:
			
		

> Not trying to get involved into the discussion, but wan't that line a mistranslation?



As far as im aware, no.


----------



## ? (Oct 1, 2011)

lol @ this thread.



Jizznificent said:


> itachi vs nagato thread? this. won't. end well.





raizen28 said:


> i see a category 4 storm coming





X Itachi X said:


> I sense a shit storm abrewin'.


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> In the translation thread, translator clarified that Bee was aware of Itachi the whole time.



I'm well aware of this much. Bee was able to react and counter attack, if that's the point you're making. Itachi was just able to get there before Bee could turn around. He just wasn't able to attack before Bee turned around.

This was just a testament to Itachi's underrated speed.



> Bee made his hand bigger with the exact purpose of tanking that attack.



That's my point. When a character opts to block an attack like that, it usually means there wasn't time to outright avoid it entirely.

It's not like he fully tanked it either. They still hurt.



> Yes after Itachi's stare.And Nagato could even sense Amatearsu coming, come on..



He's not a sensor. Never stated to be one anyway. But yes, he noticed the air around Itachi change, like Zetsu had. The air was probably still in the same state from the last time Amaterasu was used a few seconds ago. There simply was no way to predict another one would come out. At least, it's highly unlikely. Noticing one is one thing. Itachi has no blood prior and the air pressure is normal, but 2 in succession, you can't use those methods to judge, because those circumstances were already met with the first Amaterasu. You can't notice a change in the air pressure if it's already in that state, and you can't notice blood appearing if it's already there.

That's my reasonable doubt.



> Yet you refuse to allow the possibility that he might've actually knowm Itachi was gonna hit him with Amaterasu..



It's possible, yes. But there's also reasonable doubt.



> I vaguely remember some them going "ugh" when hit.But at the very least, having less than plaesent times like Hanzo when he stabs himself:
> 
> *Look at his impression as he stabs himself.*



Nagato's face looks different than that. He doesn't look like he's in pain at all if you ask me.



> It's not about what you beleive.It was sated by the man himself:
> 
> "I'll keep them bound enough to follow orders and leave them to their own devises beyond that."



Bound to follow orders. Those would be, only to attack enemies, and to defend whenever possible. Unless Kabuto knows everyone on the enemy's side, these individual enemies aren't pre-recorded into the orders. It's whoever Kabuto deems an enemy, obviously. Painfully obvious in fact.



> Or like i said about Hanzo and Itachi.They have their orders to kill ceratain opponent and they can only choose how to.



Which would mean Kabuto's screwed if other enemies were to show up because Itachi wouldn't attack them. No.

If new reinforcements show up, the Edo Tensei attack them too, because Kabuto recognizes them as enemies.



> Kabuto will never restrict his Edos from attacking Zetsus or Tobi.He is in it for himself.He wanst to fuck up both sides.



Apparently he has. He's in it for himself, but it's in his best interest not to attack his own allies while he has the shinobi alliance to deal with. He would then have enemies on both sides, and that would be the end of him.

It'd be an utterly retarded, idiotic, stupid thing to do. As most villain alliances work, Kabuto is in full cooperation with Madara for now. He has intentions to turn on him, but at the opportune time. Now is not that time. His army won't attack the Zetsu.



> Even if that was the case, Kabuto was too busy wondering how the fuck Itachi got out to "will" Nagato into attacking Itachi.And he didn't give a darn about Nagato until he knew what happened.



It's not like the will is concentration. Recognizing one as an enemy would be all it would take. That's what happens when reinforcements show up, or other unexpected ninja. Kabuto has the Edo Tensei attack them with no problem.

All Kabuto would need to do is recognize Itachi as an enemy of his, which would take no conscious thought from his side. Kabuto knew then Itachi was an enemy, if attacking Nagato's summon or Kabuto's own realization of what happened was an indicator.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> That's my point. When a character opts to block an attack like that, it usually means there wasn't time to outright avoid it entirely.



Or simply couldn't be bothered with dodging.Like Naruto (an ultraspeed beast) used his hands to block Itachi's Katon.



> He's not a sensor.



ORLY?!

*Look at his impression as he stabs himself.*



> That's my reasonable doubt.
> 
> It's possible, yes. But there's also reasonable doubt.



Fine.



> Nagato's face looks different than that. He doesn't look like he's in pain at all if you ask me.



Yes it looks different.Still looks like he isn't having best of times to me though.



> Which would mean Kabuto's screwed if other enemies were to show up because Itachi wouldn't attack them. No.



Or Kabuto will simply change the orders.



> Apparently he has. He's in it for himself, but it's in his best interest not to attack his own allies while he has the shinobi alliance to deal with. He would then have enemies on both sides, and that would be the end of him.
> 
> It'd be an utterly retarded, idiotic, stupid thing to do. As most villain alliances work, Kabuto is in full cooperation with Madara for now. He has intentions to turn on him, but at the opportune time. Now is not that time. His army won't attack the Zetsu.



It's not like he can't just put the blame on the chaos on the battlefield.



> It's not like the will is concentration. Recognizing one as an enemy would be all it would take. That's what happens when reinforcements show up, or other unexpected ninja. Kabuto has the Edo Tensei attack them with no problem.
> 
> All Kabuto would need to do is recognize Itachi as an enemy of his, which would take no conscious thought from his side. Kabuto knew then Itachi was an enemy, if attacking Nagato's summon or Kabuto's own realization of what happened was an indicator.



Where do you take this from?It sure as hell wasn't stated anywhere.And when Kabuto is shown "willing" or "ordering" or whatever, certain Edos to attack, he is shown doing signs and shit.

*Look at his impression as he stabs himself.*

*Look at his impression as he stabs himself.*


----------



## Sniffers (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> As far as im aware, no.



I was hoping you would figure it out for me , but...


kabuto: I can still catch them with that…\\ 
nagato: chibaku tensei!\\​-Aegon Rokudo translation

Additionally..


Coupled with the fact that MS translations were off these last few weeks and considering Aegon is a good translator in my experience, as well as two translations contradicting MS', makes me conclude it's a translation error. Maybe NF translators could take a look, but I'm quite sure, considering the context I described, Aegon's translation is correct.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

"I can make them into stars"

"it's amazingly powerful you stupid idiot"

What the hell is that 

That doesn't seem to me to be a correct translation.And i don't know who this Aegon  guy is.


----------



## Sniffers (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> "I can make them into stars"
> 
> "it's amazingly powerful you stupid idiot"
> 
> ...



I agree that the translation provided in the image seems off as well. Point is that it's completely different from MS' translation and adheres more closely to Aegon's. That is, the idea behind both translations I provided are similar and quite different from MS'.

I don't know him either. I just know he has been translating the past few chapters in it always seemed closer to TakL's and Yagami's translations in the spoiler threads.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> I don't know him either. I just know he has been translating the past few chapters in it always seemed closer to TakL's and Yagami's translations in the spoiler threads.



That's good.Still im not completely convinced.


----------



## Jυstin (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Or simply couldn't be bothered with dodging.Like Naruto (an ultraspeed beast) used his hands to block Itachi's Katon.



He wouldn't have a choice in the matter. Even if he's not allowed to fight other Edo Tensei (rather than just being prohibited from striking allies), which is a silly assumption, this would have no bearing on automatic reaction to attacks.



> ORLY?!
> 
> Suna no Tama



Uh.. no. "I've got a bad feeling" etc. is not the trait of a sensor. It would be more along the lines of "I sense powerful chakra approaching.".

Having a "feeling" isn't any more being a sensor than that natural feeling you get when someone's behind you.



> Yes it looks different.Still looks like he isn't having best of times to me though.



I gathered that much from the dark fire burning him up. No need to see facial expression to know what's going in said person's mind 



> Or Kabuto will simply change the orders.



That's exactly what I'm saying. Those orders change depending on what new variables come into play, as in new enemies approaching, allies defecting to the enemy's side, etc..



> It's not like he can't just put the blame on the chaos on the battlefield.



Not only would this have the potential to fail (because if he's seen deliberately taking out Zetsu clones, it could be reported by Zetsu), but this would also weaken his own fronts against the shinobi alliance. He does want to take down Madara, but for now his priorities are against the shinobi alliance. Winning first would strike higher on the priorities list than wiping out Madara's army.

At any rate, we've seen none of the Edo Tensei attacking Zetsu clones without discrimination, so they must be controlled to only attack the enemy.



> Where do you take this from?It sure as hell wasn't stated anywhere.And when Kabuto is shown "willing" or "ordering" or whatever, certain Edos to attack, he is shown doing signs and shit.
> 
> Suna no Tama
> 
> Suna no Tama



I pictured him doing those simple hand signs to force them to attack, actually, even though I'd forgotten those panels. Surely implementing his will/control on the Edo Tensei would require some gesture like that, and not just simple thought alone. It's not like the defense, which is automatic.

It's what I've been saying. They attack who and when Kabuto wants them to. He probably isn't doing that sign for every Jutsu they use, but he uses it to initiate their attack mode. I was trying to explain this before


----------



## Sniffers (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> That's good.Still im not completely convinced.



I'm not 100% sure either. Just wanted to throw it out there, dude.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Sniffers said:


> I'm not 100% sure either. Just wanted to throw it out there, dude.



No worries.Thanks dude


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> He wouldn't have a choice in the matter. Even if he's not allowed to fight other Edo Tensei (rather than just being prohibited from striking allies), which is a silly assumption, this would have no bearing on automatic reaction to attacks.



I was talking about Bee and Naruto 



> Uh.. no. "I've got a bad feeling" etc. is not the trait of a sensor. It would be more along the lines of "I sense powerful chakra approaching.".
> 
> Having a "feeling" isn't any more being a sensor than that natural feeling you get when someone's behind you.



"nostalgic".He knew it was Naruto.

And what do you make of Itachi asking him if Naruto and Bee were close?



> I gathered that much from the dark fire burning him up. No need to see facial expression to know what's going in said person's mind



But it is needed.Otherwise it would seem they don't hurt at all.

Oh and look *here.* It looks very similar to Nagato's expression to me.




> Not only would this have the potential to fail (because if he's seen deliberately taking out Zetsu clones, it could be reported by Zetsu),



Yes, *"if seen"* *"deliberately"*.But there are plenty of ways around that.AOE attacks or large enough jutsu that it will take 5-6 opponents at once (some alliance members and the Zetsu they are fighting.)



> , but this would also weaken his own fronts against the shinobi alliance. He does want to take down Madara, but for now his priorities are against the shinobi alliance. Winning first would strike higher on the priorities list than wiping out Madara's army.
> 
> At any rate, we've seen none of the Edo Tensei attacking Zetsu clones without discrimination, so they must be controlled to only attack the enemy.



The Alliance has already taken huge amount of casualties.He can't let one side be weakened too much no matter what his priority at the moment is.His plan is for the alliance and Tobi to take each other out.They can't do that if one side is too weak.



> I pictured him doing those simple hand signs to force them to attack, actually, even though I'd forgotten those panels. Surely implementing his will/control on the Edo Tensei would require some gesture like that, and not just simple thought alone. It's not like the defense, which is automatic.



Yep.But he was too distracted to make the gestures so Nagato can fight Itachi the moment Itachi broke free.



> It's what I've been saying. They attack who and when Kabuto wants them to.




And it's what i've been saying about Hanzo and Itachi.They had their orders to kill their opponents but could choose how to and they chose the way that would free them.



> He probably isn't doing that sign for every Jutsu they use, *but he uses it to initiate their attack mode.* I was trying to explain this before



The moment with A's dad against Naruto was already at the end.A was attacking before that and yet Kabuto was shown doing signs later.It's not just initiating their attack mode.Sometimes he wants to do a specific jutsu.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Gotta love that fanfiction, eh?
> 
> Kabuto said "no ordinary man".And Nrauto and Bee were his targets from the begging.He was planning to kill them and then revive them.As for Itachi:
> 
> ...



And you have no proof Itachi can't do it either. In fact he just sealed Nagato so your argument is invalid. Where was it stated that he planned to revive them ? He is gonna kill them, not let Madara get his hands on the jinchuriki just so Madara cast a genjutsu on the whole world. 

Weak revenge neg? You got dumpstertrashed like a nergin.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> And you have no proof Itachi can't do it either.



You are the one going around and stating that Itachi can insta-seal Nagato without Naruto and Bee there, like it's a fact.The burden of proof is on ya.





> In fact he just sealed Nagato so your argument is invalid.



Yes, he sealed Nagato who was controlled by Kabuto when he struck from a dust cloud created by the destruction of CT, *and?*







> Where was it stated that he planned to revive them ? He is gonna kill them, not let Madara get his hands on the jinchuriki just so Madara cast a genjutsu on the whole world.



Thanks for proving that you do not read the manga:

*I can kill them temporally with the Human path and then take their souls and bodies back with Naraka path so i can revive them later.*



> Weak revenge neg? You got dumpstertrashed like a nergin.



This is gold


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> You are the one going around and stating that Itachi can insta-seal Nagato without Naruto and Bee there, like it's a fact.The burden of proof is on ya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi outskilled Nagato by blinding his movement, what makes you think he can't do it when Naruto and Bee is not in Itachi's way ? It just makes it easier.

Did you read the next line ? Kabuto said: Well I've got a way to make the jinchuuriki mine without Madara finding out.

So Kabuto is gonna kill the jin and not let them live so Madara can cast the genjutsu. People say Nagato was not going for the kill on the jin ? That's why he lost ? LoL.

The moment Kabuto said Itachi was on a different level from the rest, he knew Itachi was the threat not the jins and had to get rid of him. And we clearly saw that. But Itachi was too fast - even faster if it wasn't for "Prime Nagato show off chapter".


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> Itachi outskilled Nagato by blinding his movement, what makes you think he can't do it when Naruto and Bee is not in Itachi's way ? It just makes it easier.




Gotta love that fanfic.. Nagato could still move without summons:

*I can kill them temporally with the Human path and then take their souls and bodies back with Naraka path so i can revive them later.*

Not to mention that Nagto could summon more shit.Rhinos, Oxes, etc etc 

And he was blinded thanks to the destruction of CT for which Naruto and Bee helped greatly.


And Kabuto was in control not Nagato.



> Did you read the next line ? Kabuto said: Well I've got a way to make the jinchuuriki mine without Madara finding out.
> 
> So Kabuto is gonna kill the jin and not let them live so Madara can cast the genjutsu. People say Nagato was not going for the kill on the jin ? That's why he lost ? LoL.



What the F are you talking about?

Kabuto said that he will revive them later.How the heck does "make them mine without Tobi finding out" mean that he would've let them stay dead?



> The moment Kabuto said Itachi was on a different level from the rest, he knew Itachi was the threat not the jins and had to get rid of him.




Kabuto said " no ordinary man".Then he focused on his primary targets Naruto and Bee and wasn't concerned about Itachi until Itachi intervened.Oh wait.. this is Kabuto's concerned face:

*I can kill them temporally with the Human path and then take their souls and bodies back with Naraka path so i can revive them later.*

smiling and loling 

And if he just wanted to get rid of Naru and Bee, there are easier ways to do it than 5 minute soul rip


----------



## Raiden (Oct 1, 2011)

Sounds like troll logic to me.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Gotta love that fanfic.. Nagato could still move without summons:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



I never said Nagato couldn't move. I just said Itachi would still outskill him which he did. When Bee and Naruto was in Itachis way. Without them Nagato won't be even reacting to Itachis speed.

He was blinded because of Itachis kunai skills. He threw them in the eyes of his summons.

If Nagato can summon rhino, oxes as you said, why didn't he do it then ? He had no time cause Itachi would instantly seal him. 

Link removed

I underestimated him! Uchiha Itachi he's clearly on another level to the others. Not even the edo tensei can hold him.

Link removed

Can you see Kabuto smiling on those chapters. More like Itachi is superior than all of them.

- And if he just wanted to get rid of Naru and Bee, there are easier ways to do it than 5 minute soul rip

Not when Itachi is around to protect those two + dealing with Nagato.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> When Bee and Naruto was in Itachis way. Without them Nagato won't be even reacting to Itachis speed.



Fanfic again, eh?Don't you have anything else?



> If Nagato can summon rhino, oxes as you said, why didn't he do it then ? He had no time cause Itachi would instantly seal him.



So wait, Nagato has time for CT but has not time to summon?Itachi didn't even have Totsuka out yet 



> Link removed
> 
> I underestimated him! Uchiha Itachi he's clearly on another level to the others. Not even the edo tensei can hold him.



Wrong translation.Kabuto said "no ordinary man"



> Can you see Kabuto smiling on those chapters. More like Itachi is superior than all of them.



Itachi has to thank Naruto for that.Otherwise he would've stayed Kabuto's bitch 



> Not when Itachi is around to protect those two + dealing with Nagato.



There was no sign of him while Nagato absorbed Bee, and then proceeded to kick Naru and Bee's asses.They were lucky soul suck takes so much time


----------



## CrownSharingan (Oct 1, 2011)

Ricardox said:


> Sorry but, actually he could.



Actually just looks like he's standing there really, Naruto is the one throwing himself at Nagato.

I think you missed my point regardless.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Fanfic again, eh?Don't you have anything else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So by your logic Nagato was Kabutos bitch ? Well I agree.

So wait, Nagato has time for CT but has not time to summon?Itachi didn't even have Totsuka out yet 

So why did he not do it then ?
Answer is simple cause Itachi would just make his summon useless by blinding them. Nagato learned from that. 

Kishi from Kabutos mouth: Itachi is clearly on another level from the rest.
Whether you like it or not.
It only shows superiority.

Nagato is better off nuking villages, in 1v1 fight against Itachi ? Itachi murders Nagato as proven.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> So why did he not do it then ?



Cause he didn't have time to play around.



> Answer is simple cause Itachi would just make his summon useless by blinding them. Nagato learned from that.



Yes as Naruto and Bee are still around to distract Nagato and his summons.



> Kishi from Kabutos mouth:



"No ordinary man"



> Nagato is better off nuking villages, in 1v1 fight against Itachi ? Itachi murders Nagato as proven.



Yeah, yeah.. stick to your fanfics.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Cause he didn't have time to play around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Summoning summons is not playing around. To outnumber them he could summon rhino oxes as you said ? Well too bad Itachi was there. He knew it would be useless.

Nothing to distract when Bee and Naruto was fodder meal for Nagato. He was set to kill Itachi before he would seal him. Too bad Itachi was too smart and sealed him.

So it means Nagato/Bee/Naruto are not ordinary ? Well then it just shows Itachi > Nagato. Nonetheless he is clearly on another level from the rest.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> Summoning summons is not playing around. To outnumber them he could summon rhino oxes as you said ?



And then what?Those same summons SM Naruto fodderized in the Pein arc?



> Nothing to distract when Bee and Naruto was fodder meal for Nagato. He was set to kill Itachi before he would seal him. Too bad Itachi was too smart and sealed him.



Please remind me what was Nagato doing before Itachi interfered?Trying to kill Itachi?Nope.Trying to find Itachi?Nope.Trying to soul suck Naruto and Bee?*Correct.*



> So it means Nagato/Bee/Naruto are not ordinary ? Well then it just shows Itachi > Nagato. Nonetheless he is clearly on another level from the rest.



LMAO  *No* as Kabuto put Nagato against Itachi, Bee and Naruto and was smiling at the idea of taking on the three of them:


Link removed
Link removed

If anything, *according to Kabuto*, Nagato>Itachi, Bee and Naruto.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> And then what?Those same summons SM Naruto fodderized in the Pein arc?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And then they would have to focus the summons. And let Itachi deal with Nagato to seal him. 

Try to remind me what Kabuto was trying to do after he found out Itachi was clearly on a whole other level from the rest. That's right, get rid of what the threat actually comes from. Meaning getting rid of Itachi.

Link removed
Link removed

Kabuto is not smiling when he finds out Itachi is on another level from the rest. He is surprised that Itachi is that strong. 

If Kabuto wanted to make Nagato > Itachi, bee and Naruto he wouldn't say Itachi was on a whole new level from the rest.
So he wanted to say he calculated everything wrong and Itachi > Nagato.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> And then they would have to focus the summons.



Naruto alone can take them but good try 



> Try to remind me what Kabuto was trying to do after he found out Itachi was clearly on a whole other level from the rest. That's right, get rid of what the threat actually comes from. Meaning getting rid of Itachi.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed



Oh, fanfic oh fanfic..

After that he focused on Naruto and Bee and wasn't worried about Itachi until he intervened to save Naruto and Bee.



> Kabuto is not smiling when he finds out Itachi is on another level from the rest. He is surprised that Itachi is that strong.



But he's smiling when he finds out that Itachi got free thanks to Shisui's eye:

Link removed



> If Kabuto wanted to make Nagato > Itachi, bee and Naruto he wouldn't say Itachi was on a whole new level from the rest.
> So he wanted to say he calculated everything wrong and Itachi > Nagato.



Kabuto never said that Itachi was on a different level from the rest.

-Kabuto puts Nagato against Itachi, Bee and Naruto

-Says that his luck "keeps getting better and better" when he learns about Shisui's eye.

-Is not worried about Itachi, even ignores him for awhile and is excited to take on all three characters.

So again, *according to Kabuto,* Nagato>Itachi, Bee and Naruto.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Naruto alone can take them but good try
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We clearly saw Naruto take them out right? Nice try. No Itachi blinded and took care of that.

How is Kabuto not worried when Kabuto clearly says that Itachi is clearly on another level from the _REST_.

It means he has kill who is the strongest, that is Itachi. Or else Kabuto will lose, nonetheless Kabuto still lost because Itachi > Nagato.

If Kishi wanted to make Nagato > Itachi, he wouldn't let Itachi get unscratched and outskilled in every way.

So Kabuto was aware of Shisui's eye - he wanted to kill Itachi to get the eyes. Killing Itachi benefits Kabuto since he had shisuis eyes - meaning Itachi was his primary target.

Kabuto originally put Itachi and Nagato against Bee and Naruto - not 3 vs 1. He didn't know Itachis superiority after he broke freee from edo tensei.

- Not even edo tensei can hold him!


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> We clearly saw Naruto take them out right? Nice try. No Itachi blinded and took care of that.



Someone clearly needs to reread the Pein arc.Naruto was trowing Rhinos around like fodders.



> How is Kabuto not worried when Kabuto clearly says that Itachi is clearly on another level from the _REST_.





Kabuto never said that.

And very simple:

Link removed
Link removed

Since when does smiling equals "worried"?Since when does being happy about how your "luck keeps getting better and better" and being excited about  taking on Itachi, Naru and Bee = "worried"?



> If Kishi wanted to make Nagato > Itachi, he wouldn't let Itachi get unscratched and outskilled in every way.



It's hard for him to scratch Itachi when the only time he actually attacked him, Itachi had Bee and Naruto's help (against CT) (and btw, Itachi was missing for quite some time after Shinra Tensei)

And Nagato was out skilled?By that you mean his summons?And anyway, Itachi had Naruto and Bee's help.

-Kabuto/Nagato had his hands full with them and wasn't focusing on Itachi allowing him to take out the summons.

-Naru and Bee helped destroy CT and by that creating a dust cloud from which Itachi can strike before Kabuto can react.



> So Kabuto was aware of Shisui's eye - he wanted to kill Itachi to get the eyes. Killing Itachi benefits Kabuto since he had shisuis eyes - meaning Itachi was his primary target.



Good try.Kabuto's main targets were Naruto and Bee:

Link removed



> It means he has kill who is the strongest, that is Itachi. Or else Kabuto will lose, nonetheless Kabuto still lost because Itachi > Nagato.



That's why he ignored him right?That's why he was more focused on killing Naru and Bee and reviving them later, right?



> Kabuto originally put Itachi and Nagato against Bee and Naruto - not 3 vs 1. He didn't know Itachis superiority after he broke freee from edo tensei.



And with who did Kabuto want to capture Itachi, Bee and Naruto?Sure as hell wasn't the "superior" weasel:

Link removed





> - Not even edo tensei can hold him!



Thank god Naruto was there..


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Someone clearly needs to reread the Pein arc.Naruto was trowing Rhinos around like fodders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Naruto was fodderizing Peins pet in the pain arc, why didn't he do it here then? Simply Itachi > Nagato and Naruto.

He said his lucks keep getting better and better because Itachi in fact had shisuis eye. Kabuto said earlier he couldn't summon shisui and jiraiya. Taking his eyes instead.

By outskilling I mean react and counter and expose weakness at a whim.

Kabuto only said he would revive them basically because he can't revive Itachi again because he broke free from edo tensei. Or are you implying he wants to kill edo tensei itachi and revive itachi too ? No he wants to completely to get rid of Itachi because Itachi is the real threat. He learnt his lesson.

The reason why Kabuto didn't want to capture Itachi was because he knew he couldn't. He has to kill Itachi not capture him. Itachi is another level from the rest as Kabuto said.


Thank god Naruto was there ?
So you mean Itachis intelligence and power are > Nagato, bee and Naruto ? Yeah I agree. Basically because Itachi planned everything ?


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> So Naruto was fodderizing Peins pet in the pain arc, why didn't he do it here then?



I didn't see Nagato summon Rhinos, did you?Cerburus and the others he never fought in the Pein arc, either.



> Simply Itachi > Nagato and Naruto.







> . Or are you implying he wants to kill edo tensei itachi and revive itachi too ? No he wants to completely to get rid of Itachi because Itachi is the real threat. He learnt his lesson.
> 
> The reason why Kabuto didn't want to capture Itachi was because he knew he couldn't. He has to kill Itachi not capture him. Itachi is another level from the rest as Kabuto said.



How about we hear it from the man himself, eh?

*One more person joined my capture list..* *CAPTURE*



> Thank god Naruto was there ?
> So you mean Itachis intelligence and power are > Nagato, bee and Naruto ? Yeah I agree. Basically because Itachi planned everything ?



No, i meant that Itachi was damn lucky.He admitted himself that he planned for the crow to be used against Sasuke and not himself.


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## Jυstin (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I was talking about Bee and Naruto



That's not what happened though. Bee sliced the Katon in half, causing it to travel around Naruto and Bee, while Naruto pretty much stood there with his arms in front like an idiot.



> "nostalgic".He knew it was Naruto.
> 
> And what do you make of Itachi asking him if Naruto and Bee were close?



No, I wouldn't make Itachi a sensor either. Sensing chakras isn't unheard of by ninja. This was established during the first bell test. A pair of chakras as powerful as Naruto and Bee's would definitely not go unnoticed. In fact, Bijuu chakra seems to be noticed very easily.



> But it is needed.Otherwise it would seem they don't hurt at all.
> 
> Oh and look *here.* It looks very similar to Nagato's expression to me.



This makes me wonder if Edo Tensei can feel pain, as I said. I doubt the Pein bodies can. They're just puppets, which leads me to believe the expression was more of surprise than discomfort.



> Yes, *"if seen"* *"deliberately"*.But there are plenty of ways around that.AOE attacks or large enough jutsu that it will take 5-6 opponents at once (some alliance members and the Zetsu they are fighting.)



It still wouldn't be wise. Too many careless AoE attacks aimed in the vicinity of allied Zetsu would strike as suspicious. Definitely not worth the risk, despite any arrogant thoughts that one wouldn't get caught. In any case, we simply don't see the Edo Tensei fighting the Zetsu like we see them fighting the enemy.



> The Alliance has already taken huge amount of casualties.He can't let one side be weakened too much no matter what his priority at the moment is.His plan is for the alliance and Tobi to take each other out.They can't do that if one side is too weak.



He doesn't have to worry about this. If you pay attention you'll see a large amount of Zetsu casualties too. Altogether there were 50,000/100,000 casualties on the Edo side. Kabuto doesn't have nearly that many Edo summons. Most of them are Zetsu.



> Yep.But he was too distracted to make the gestures so Nagato can fight Itachi the moment Itachi broke free.



I don't think this is the case. One could argue Kabuto would be too distracted to order any Edo Tensei to attack then, at all. He's controlling them all at once. We're only seeing the 2 or 3 he's controlling in one battle, but he's still controlling them all simultaneously. That should count as a huge distraction, especially when new enemies appear in a different front than what Kabut's focusing on.

Anyway, I'm not referring to Nagato attacking at all.



> And it's what i've been saying about Hanzo and Itachi.They had their orders to kill their opponents but could choose how to and they chose the way that would free them.



Kabuto didn't make any comment about that with Hanzou, I believe. He commented how he was able to resist his control. Hanzou stated that rupturing his venom sack isn't considered an offensive tactic against the enemy. He took precautions to protect himself in the event that ever happened to him.



> The moment with A's dad against Naruto was already at the end.A was attacking before that and yet Kabuto was shown doing signs later.It's not just initiating their attack mode.Sometimes he wants to do a specific jutsu.



Well yes, of course. I only said he probably doesn't do it for every single attack used by every Edo summon, but he should have full capability to do this when he wants.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I didn't see Nagato summon Rhinos, did you?Cerburus and the others he never fought in the Pein arc, either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I did not see rhinos either did you ? You was the one who brought them up. Itachi would still beat his summonings.

We hear from the man himself: I am invincible. In the end is Kabuto really invincible ?

When he wants to capture something, he needs to make sure is he strong enough to make those statements. Clearly not because Itachi sealed Nagato.
Like how he said he is invincible - in the end he is not invincible.

Where did he say he wanted to use the crow for sasuke? Why didn't he use it against Sasuke when they fought each other then ? Why do it the hard way to give it to Naruto when Itachi could do it himself ?
Itachi planned this from long time ago. But he just knew it was fifty-fifty chance.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

> That's not what happened though. Bee sliced the Katon in half, causing it to travel around Naruto and Bee, while Naruto pretty much stood there with his arms in front like an idiot.



Yeah, he tried to block instead of dodging.



> *No, I wouldn't make Itachi a sensor either.* Sensing chakras isn't unheard of by ninja. This was established during the first bell test. A pair of chakras as powerful as Naruto and Bee's would definitely not go unnoticed.



Wait, what?This wasn't what i was asking.

Itachi *asks Nagato:*

"Are they close?"



> *And what do you make of Itachi asking him if Naruto and Bee were close?*



And as far as im aware, only sensors have feats such as those you are listing  (sensing chakras)..



> This makes me wonder if Edo Tensei can feel pain, as I said. I doubt the Pein bodies can. They're just puppets, *which leads me to believe the expression was more of surprise than discomfort.*



Um, no.He was already hit a few seconds ago and part of his body was already destroyed.I doubt he was still "shocked".Besides, he was sacrificing himself to save Animal path.As for Peins feeling pein:

*One more person joined my capture list..*

But also, Pein don;t have a soul inside them so they don't equal the Edos.

And again, Hanzo was also showed being uncomfortable (other Edos as well.)




> He doesn't have to worry about this. If you pay attention you'll see a large amount of Zetsu casualties too. Altogether there were 50,000/100,000 casualties on the Edo side. Kabuto doesn't have nearly that many Edo summons. Most of them are Zetsu.



Zetsus.. Zetsu ain't gonna be the problem.Sasuke and Tobi will.



> I don't think this is the case. One could argue Kabuto would be too distracted to order any Edo Tensei to attack then, at all. He's controlling them all at once. We're only seeing the 2 or 3 he's controlling in one battle, but he's still controlling them all simultaneously. That should count as a huge distraction, especially when new enemies appear in a different front than what Kabut's focusing on.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not referring to Nagato attacking at all.



Not if the other Edos already got their orders.Nagato on the other hand was just sitting there not doing anything.



> Kabuto didn't make any comment about that with Hanzou, I believe. He commented how he was able to resist his control.



No, he was questioning if Hanzo is contradicting the orders from his talisman.He didn't realize that Hanzo has found a loophole.




> Hanzou stated that rupturing *his venom sack isn't considered an offensive tactic against the enemy.* He took precautions to protect himself in the event that ever happened to him.



When?

He only said that if it were to be released, it will release a huge poison cloud that will not only kill his enemies but paralyze him as well (in the flashback) 

and then in the present, he told them that even though they were wearing masks, they still need to be careful.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> I did not see rhinos either did you ? You was the one who brought them up. Itachi would still beat his summonings.




Without Nagato having his hands full with Naruto and Bee and completely focused on Itachi?And at the same time seals Nagato instantly?Nope.




> We hear from the man himself: I am invincible. In the end is Kabuto really invincible ?
> 
> When he wants to capture something, he needs to make sure is he strong enough to make those statements. Clearly not because Itachi sealed Nagato.
> Like how he said he is invincible - in the end he is not invincible.



this wasn't the argument you were making though.. You said that Kabuto was trying to kill Itachi..

And yes, the three of them were too much for Nagato.




> Where did he say he wanted to use the crow for sasuke? Why didn't he use it against Sasuke when they fought each other then ? Why do it the hard way to give it to Naruto when Itachi could do it himself ?
> Itachi planned this from long time ago. But he just knew it was fifty-fifty chance.



Why do you come here and argue when you clearly haven't read the manga?

*I never dreamed it would end up used against me..*

*If the brother i left behind ever became a threat to the village blah blah..   you were the only one who can hope to correct this.*

*The crow would've emerged reacting to Sasuke who's implanted Itachi's eyes.


Itachi didn't use it himself because he couldn't.*


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 1, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Without Nagato having his hands full with Naruto and Bee and completely focused on Itachi?And at the same time seals Nagato instantly?Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Without the plot to show off Prime Nagato? Yes he would instantly start right off the bat to seal him, not do some meaningless damage so that Nagato can just regenerate.

My point still stand. Kabuto knew he couldn't capture Itachi cause he was too powerful. So he decided to kill him before he deals with Nagato. And we all saw that was too late when Itachi exposes everything at a whim.

You still didn't answer why Itachi didn't just use it on sasuke himself. Simply because you can't. Itachi planned this long time ago. You need to re-read everything that has to do with Itachi. When it comes to his power and intellect. But I guess you can't comprehend his skills and awesomeness (Yes im serious).


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Without the plot to show off Prime Nagato? Yes he would instantly start right off the bat to seal him, not do some meaningless damage so that Nagato can just regenerate.



And without dust clouds, Nagato will counter  Will instantly repel Itachi's ass off as he tries to go Susano 



> My point still stand. Kabuto knew he couldn't capture Itachi cause he was too powerful. So he decided to kill him before he deals with Nagato. And we all saw that was too late when Itachi exposes everything at a whim.



Too bad your point desperately tries to contradict the manga:

*Kabuto plans to capture Itachi with CT.*





> You still didn't answer why Itachi didn't just use it on sasuke himself. Simply because you can't.





I posted the page for ya.It's not my fault you can not read, no, no , no.. not my fault 

*Bee:

-Why didn't u use Shisui's eye on Sasuke in first place, fool?

I couldn't use it then blah blah blah .. it requires a decade.. besides i wanted to do things for Sasuke with my death..*





> Itachi planned this long time ago. You need to re-read everything that has to do with Itachi. When it comes to his power and intellect. But I guess you can't comprehend his skills and awesomeness *(Yes im serious)*.



ORLY?

Anyway, your own favorite character disagrees with ya:

*I never dreamed it would end up used against me..*

Clearly, you need to reread the whole f'n manga


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## Kanki (Oct 1, 2011)

It wasn't that impressive seeing as it was 3 vs 1 and we later found out that Nagato was immobile.

Plus, did anyone think Nagato could survive Susano'o anyway? When you're hit, you're sealed - end of story. If you can't get out of the way then too fucking bad, it doesn't matter how strong or weak you are. I was never like "OMFG ITACHI JUST SEALED NAGATO HE'S THE STRONGEST!!!!!1111ONE!". Didn't suprise me at all. 

It was quite cool though.


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## Baroxio (Oct 1, 2011)

Vincent2k said:


> Without the plot to show off Prime Nagato? Yes he would instantly start right off the bat to seal him, not do some meaningless damage so that Nagato can just regenerate.
> 
> My point still stand. Kabuto knew he couldn't capture Itachi cause he was too powerful. So he decided to kill him before he deals with Nagato. And we all saw that was too late when Itachi exposes everything at a whim.
> 
> You still didn't answer why Itachi didn't just use it on sasuke himself. Simply because you can't. Itachi planned this long time ago. You need to re-read everything that has to do with Itachi. When it comes to his power and intellect. But I guess you can't comprehend his skills and awesomeness (Yes im serious).


Shisui's eye wasn't active until after Itachi's death, and Itachi could prolong his death no longer at that point. He HAD to give it away.

Ignoring the manga canon just brings a bad name to Itachi fans everywhere.

I will say what I always have, Itachi and Nagato are roughly equal, with Itachi having an advantage in one-on-one battles and Nagato having advantages against numbers.

In a battle between the two, Itachi can counter almost, if not all, of Nagato's techniques depending on knowledge (For Chibaku Tensei, Amaterasu the core before it absorbs enough earth to block the technique, or use Yasaka's Magamatama to give Amaterasu a better shot at the core, etc. should work easily enough). The same cannot be said for Nagato, who was unable to react to the Totsuka no Tsugiri, and has no genjutsu feats.

The battle was impressive.

Lastly, asking for a Nagato with more mobility is like asking for an Itachi with more chakra. Mobile Nagato is more featless than healthy Itachi. Even top tiers cannot be good at everything.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 2, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> And without dust clouds, Nagato will counter  Will instantly repel Itachi's ass off as he tries to go Susano
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why are you using those smileys ? To hide the fact that you can't argue ? We saw how Nagato "countered" Itachi. We clearly saw Nagato did th-. Wait Itachi sealed him. 

And why do you think Kabuto wants to capture Itachi ? To suck out their soul and revive them later like you said about bee and naruto ? Revive an edo tensei right. No, get rid of the threat.

Or do you mean CT wouldn't have killed them? Agreed then.

Can't even understand what you are trying to say with those blah blah blah. You are getting sloopy. Unstable now ? Stay confident when you argue with me son.

Are you trying to say something Itachi says is 100% accurate ? So Itachi says Madara is immortal - in the end he will get killed by either Naruto or Sasuke or both at the same time.

Itachi also says he killed shisui. Was this correct too ?

Itachi says even with backup, taking akatsuki members, sasori, hidan, kakuzu, pain can't defeat Jiraiya. Was this true ?

Itachi said he wanted Sasuke eyes to gain EMS. Was this true ?

Itachi said he massacred his clan to test his limits. Was this true too ?

Itachi said he spared sasuke because he was not worthy enough to kill. Was this even true?

I can go for days.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 2, 2011)

Vincent2k said:
			
		

> Why are you using those smileys ? To hide the fact that you can't argue ?



Sweetie, i don't even have to try.You are trying to go against the manga and have already lost.



> We saw how Nagato "countered" Itachi. We clearly saw Nagato did th-. Wait Itachi sealed him.



Yes, we saw Nagato not countering Itachi when he couldn't see him *hidden in the dust cloud,* *and?*You don't make any sense 



> And why do you think Kabuto wants to capture Itachi ? To suck out their soul and revive them later like you said about bee and naruto ? Revive an edo tensei right. No, get rid of the threat.



Or simply keep him until he figures out how to regain control of him.Kabuto never said that he wants to get rid of Itachi.Simply capture him.You are doing nothing but contradicting what was stated in the manga.Good job  



> Can't even understand what you are trying to say with those blah blah blah. You are getting sloopy. Unstable now ? Stay confident when you argue with me son.



Dude, are you a little looney?:ho You do not seem to be all there in your head.I said "blah blah blah" cause i didn't want to quote all the lines and only the important parts.




> Are you trying to say something Itachi says is 100% accurate ? So Itachi says Madara is immortal - in the end he will get killed by either Naruto or Sasuke or both at the same time.
> 
> Itachi also says he killed shisui. Was this correct too ?
> 
> ...



OMG  You said that Itachi never stated that he planned for the crow to be used against Sasuke.I showed you the manga.You said that i can't provide you a reason as to why he didn't use it on Sasuke himself.I provided you with the manga's answers once again.Just admit you were wrong and move on.At this point even Itachi fans are starting to shake their heads in disapproval..



			
				Baroxio said:
			
		

> Ignoring the manga canon just brings a bad name to Itachi fans everywhere.



As for your examples, Itachi had reasons to lie.He was pretending to be the bad guy.He had no reason to lie this time.



> I can go for days.



Please do.I need my laughs 




			
				Baroxio said:
			
		

> In a battle between the two, Itachi can counter almost, if not all, of Nagato's techniques depending on knowledge (For Chibaku Tensei, Amaterasu the core before it absorbs enough earth to block the technique, or use Yasaka's Magamatama to give Amaterasu a better shot at the core, etc. should work easily enough). The same cannot be said for Nagato, who was unable to react to the Totsuka no Tsugiri, and has no genjutsu feats.



-Kabuto/Nagato couldn't react only because Itachi was hidden in the dust cloud created by the destruction of Nagato's own tech.

-There's no proof that Amaterasu and Magamatama can get the job done, let alone "easily enough"



> Lastly, asking for a Nagato with more mobility is like asking for an Itachi with more chakra.



Except, Itachi never had more chakra.Nagato had proper mobility before.



> Mobile Nagato is more featless than healthy Itachi.



Kabuto accounted Nagato's loss to him lacking mobility..  it's not about some super-ultra-duper speed feats.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Oct 2, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Sweetie, i don't even have to try.You are trying to go against the manga and have already lost.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't need to use those smilies unlike you. The moment you said Nagato > Itachi is when you already lost.

So you admit Nagato couldn't counter to Itachis attack cause he couldn't see it coming ? Then Itachi might aswell put fireballs to hinder Nagatos view and create an opening to seal Nagato.

Im only using logic unlike you. You just said Kabuto wanted to kill Bee and Naruto to revive them later. So he used CT - then you also mean CT is not a killer move and regardless if Itachi said: Use your strongest attack against it. They wouldn't have died ? Not sure what you are trying to get at. So in 1v1 fight, even if Nagato used CT, Itachi would survive ? Yeah.

I just proved you that you can't trust Itachi, you couldn't answer to any of what I just said ? Simply cause it was not true what Itachi did say. I proved with all Itachi said was fake - I don't need to give you scan cause you already know it seems.


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## Deshi Basara (Oct 2, 2011)

> I don't need to use those smilies unlike you. *The moment I said Itachi > Nagato and started desperately trying and trying to ignore the manag is when I already lost.*



Fixed 



> So you admit Nagato couldn't counter to Itachis attack cause he couldn't see it coming ? Then Itachi might aswell put fireballs to hinder Nagatos view and create an opening to seal Nagato.



So you admit Itachi has to do something to create an opening and only then be able to seal Nagato?Therefore he can not seal Nagato instantly the moment the fight starts?Good.

Anyway, Nagato is very careful with opponents he knows are dangerous.Like Jiraiya.That's why he started with only 1 body, then 3 and finally 6.Nagato won't just give Itachi the opportunities to create an opening.He could fly away on his bird, hide in chameleon, shield himself with summons, activate the Preta sphere, start shooting at Itachi with Asura like crazy and not give him time to breath  etc etc



> Im only using logic unlike you. You just said Kabuto wanted to kill Bee and Naruto to revive them later. So he used CT - then you also mean CT is not a killer move and regardless if Itachi said: Use your strongest attack against it. They wouldn't have died ? Not sure what you are trying to get at. So in 1v1 fight, even if Nagato used CT, Itachi would survive ? Yeah.



Bee and Naruto are irrelevant.*They are not immortal regenerating zombies.*I only said that Kabuto never implied that he would kill Itachi.I never said that CT wouldn't kill Naru and Bee..



> I just proved you that you can't trust Itachi,* you couldn't answer to any of what I just said ?* Simply cause it was not true what Itachi did say. I proved with all Itachi said was fake - I don't need to give you scan cause you already know it seems.



You really are a looney..




> *As for your examples, Itachi had reasons to lie.He was pretending to be the bad guy.He had no reason to lie this time.*


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## DarkRasengan (Oct 2, 2011)

I dont even think nagato attacked itachi, it was naruto+bee with itachi as support, he was great support but he wasnt a main fighter.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 2, 2011)

DarkRasengan said:


> I dont even think nagato attacked itachi, it was naruto+bee with itachi as support, he was great support but he wasnt a main fighter.



He hit him w/ ama when he first got released.

Sorry but Itachi has no chance 1v1 against Pain or Nagato.

Summons alone give Itachi a run for his money. The Rhino would def. be able to push Susanoo back no problem, plus cerebrus would own Itachi, since theoritically Ama shouldn't be able to defeat it since all it would do is mulitply and divide the flames over and over until the flames are miniscule. Not to mention he would have to it Cerebrus w/ ama right when he's summoned or there would be more than 1 target to hit, which would drain Itachi pretty badly.


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