# Kakuzu: Kage Challenge



## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

*Distance:* 20 meters
*Location:* Kakashi vs. Kakuzu
*Mindset:* To Kill
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Restrictions:* None
*Scenario:* 1 vs. 1
*Challengers:*
Hiruzen (old)
Tsunade
Rasa
Gaara
Oonoki
Muu
Raikagernaut (3rd)
4th A
Trollkage
Mei

Who does he beat and who does he lose to?


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## Aduro (Aug 17, 2015)

Probably beats MEi, Rasa and Old Hiruzen by virtue of range and power, the rest could probably tank and smash his hearts one by one or outrange him. He's pretty low kage level.


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## Amol (Aug 17, 2015)

Hiruzen (old) : Hiruzen stalemated a Sannin. Don't let Part 2 power inflation fool you.
Pretty sure Kakuzu was never meant to be strong enough to beat Oro.
Tsunade: Tsunade punches him. Frankly the image of fight I had in my mind is Tsunade catching one of the thread  tentacle  of Kakuzu and bashing it on other.
Rasa : Dunno. Rasa really doesn't have either feats or any impressive hype to make a case for him.
Gaara: Gaara buries him and then seals him.
Oonoki : Jinton gg
Muu  : Jinton gg
Raikagernaut (3rd) : He will laugh at Kakuzu's most of the attacks and Raiton> Doton.
4th A : Speed blitz   Karate chop   Raiton 
Trollkage  : Kakuzu don't really have answer for Joyboy.
Trollkage should take this .
Mei : On the contrary belief I actually think Mei stands better chances of winning.
Acid Mist will harm him and block his vision. If she is even half good as Zabuza (otherwise there is no point in learning mist jutsu), she can take out his hearts with her rediculously large AoE attacks.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 17, 2015)

Beats Part 1-restricted Hiruzen with power inflation not taken into account, beats Mei and Rasa, 50/50 vs Gengetsu due to match up advantage. Might overwhelm Gaara too if he goes all out right away. Loses to the rest.


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## Bonly (Aug 17, 2015)

I can see Kakuzu beating Hiruzen more times then not while having a 50/50 shot against Mei and Rasa while losing to the rest more times then not.


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## Esket (Aug 17, 2015)

Hiruzen (old) - win
Tsunade - win
Rasa - 50/50
Gaara - win
Oonoki - lose
Muu - lose
Raikagernaut (3rd) - lose
4th A - 50/50
Trollkage - lose
Mei - 50/50


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

*Hiruzen (old)
Tsunade*
Rasa
Gaara
Oonoki
Muu
Raikagernaut (3rd)
4th A
*Trollkage*
*Mei*


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 17, 2015)

^Kakuzu definitely isn't beating Tsunade or Gengetsu.

He beats Hiruzen and Rasa, and could defeat Mei at a push, but that's the height of it.​​


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

> Hiruzen (old)


Distance is 20m, threads or Domu strikes should put Hiruzen down.

Hiruzen doesn't have the destructive capacity to bring Kakuzu down prior to him needing to bring out hearts if Hiruzen does manage to counter his CQC with Enma Staff. 

Once the hearts are out Hiruzen stands no chance. 



> Tsunade


Tsunade should've gotten the report on Kakashi's battle against Kakuzu, meaning she should have knowledge that he's a well versed opponent.

I see Tsunade beating him with high difficulty, one strike is enough to break his Domu defense and severely injure him.

Tsunade won't go down to Domu Strikes considering she survived Light Speed Travel, several strikes from Kusanagi (Orochimaru) without Creation Rebirth being active prior to receiving the injuries. 

If need be she can summon Katsuyu to deal with the hearts when and if they come out, I do however think Tsunade has the CQC ability to land a hit on Kakuzu prior to that happening. 



> Rasa


Kakuzu beats Rasa low difficulty. The location is bad for Rasa seeing as there isn't a plethora of gold minerals lying around, and gold sand doesn't have the destructive capacity to bypass Domu defense. 



> Gaara


Same thing essentially, Gaara's sand is slightly faster and he has more versatility with it than his father, however, it's still not strong enough to bypass Domu's defense and considering the location Gaara will be starting with only Gourd Sand. 

Kakuzu will punch the sand away and if it comes to it he can use his hearts to systemically break down Gaara's defense with the lightning & Wind/Katon hearts. 

Because Gaara can fly and his sand is very fast, It'll take Kakuzu's hearts to wound him, meaning this is a high-difficulty win for Kakuzu. 



> Oonoki


Onoki beats him low difficulty.

Jinton bypasses his Domu defense and he doesn't have the speed to avoid it. 

Onoki also has the option of summoning multiple Doton clones to feint him and land a super weighted rock fist that would easily decimate his defense, aside from weighing him down. 



> Muu


Kakuzu can't find an invisible Mu, his blindside strikes can kill Kakuzu if his Domu isn't active 100% of the time. 

High reactions, flight & Jinton only make it easier for Mu to annihilate him. 



> Raikagernaut (3rd)


He is a great counter to Kakuzu's moveset. Nukite casually bypasses Domu's defense and cuts through him with relative ease.

The 3rd's speed & durability mean the hearts won't be very effective in helping Kakuzu should he even survive that long. 



> 4th A


A is too fast for Kakuzu. His CQC, Tendrils & Heart blasts are way too slow to hit him once he enters V2, and his raiton chop should bypass Domu's defense, not to suggest Kakuzu would react in time to use it. 

A mid difficulty. 



> Trollkage


Kakuzu might be able to win here if the Trollkage cannot full body liquefy. If it's true he only excretes oil-like liquid from his skin that won't help him against Kakuzu, who can severely damage him with strikes. 

Water Gun won't do anything to Domu, without knowledge on Kakuzu it's doubtful he brings out the clam early on. 

I'd roll with Kakuzu high difficulty. 



> Mei


Mei beats him high difficulty. Suiton Dragon & Boil Release are excellent counters to his CQC, and her water sprout technique is larger and more powerful than any of Kakuzu's elemental techniques.

He doesn't have knowledge on Boil Release, which was melting away a Susano (superior defense to Domu), that'll melt his eyes early on blinding him and lava release also has the ability to bypass his defense once he's fucked up by the Suitons/Boil Release.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakuzu definitely isn't beating Tsunade or Gengetsu.



Neither can get through Domu.


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## Aduro (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Neither can get through Domu.



Didn't you seen Tsunade kicking through Madara's susasnoo? When she picked up Gamabunta's sword and swung it through Manda's face? If there's one think Tsunade doesn't lack its physical strength. Domu took a hit from pre-war arc choji and some paper bombs, not raikiri.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Neither can get through Domu.



Tsunade broke through Susano'o in a few hits, and Susano'o > Domu. Domu's only feats are tanking an explosive tag and Chouji's Nikudan Hari Sensha, neither of which are that impressive. 

Susano'o, on the other hand, has taken multiple hits from Ei's taijutsu, Mei's youton and Onoki's doton without breaking. It also gets labelled as a 'perfect defense', something Kakuzu's Domu did not.

Gengetsu might have a hard time getting through Domu, but he's ultimately going to win because Kakuzu can't see through his Clam genjutsu. Kakuzu doesn't keep his Domu active 24/7, particularly not when he goes full tendril mode. Sooner or later he, or his masks, are getting blind-sided.​​


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't think she's breaking through Domu either, that thing is supposed to be as tough as diamond, Kakuzu would sooner lose his footing before she breaks through it. Her putting cracks on Susano'o happened with multiple hits and the assistance of numerous other kages.

If she catches Kakuzu without it, then yeah, sure she can cause damage, but she's not going to be able to kill him with it either.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Diamond can be shattered with a steel hammer, Ryuzaki. 

Tsunade shattered Susano.

One hit breaks his Domu and body apart.


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## Grimsley (Aug 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think she's breaking through Domu either, that thing is supposed to be as tough as diamond, Kakuzu would sooner lose his footing before she breaks through it. Her putting cracks on Susano'o happened with multiple hits and the assistance of numerous other kages.



Tsunade is not losing to Kakuzu you fucking imbecile no matter how much you want her to. Domu is a fucking B ranked jutsu, she fucking cracked through Madara's Susanoo, that's not even taking into account that one of her chakra nature is lightning. 

Tsunade demolishes Kakuzu end off.


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## Grimsley (Aug 17, 2015)

Kakuzu beats Hiruzen, Mei, Rasa and perhaps Trollkage. The rest he loses.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 17, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think she's breaking through Domu either, that thing is supposed to be as tough as diamond,



Right. Just as Amaterasu is supposed to be as hot as the sun, or as Haku can move at the speed of light, or as Tsunade and Orochimaru are immortal. Hyperboles are hyperboles for a reason. I very much doubt Domu is _actually_ as hard as diamond.



> Kakuzu would sooner lose his footing before she breaks through it. Her putting cracks on Susano'o happened with multiple hits and the assistance of numerous other kages.



She put a giant crack in it with just one hit, by herself. I think that's more than enough evidence to suggest she can bypass Domu.​​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade broke through Susano'o in a few hits, and Susano'o > Domu.



v2 Susano'o (or clone v2) < Domu IMO.

With the exception of defense against raitons, obviously.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Gengetsu might have a hard time getting through Domu, but he's ultimately going to win because Kakuzu can't see through his Clam genjutsu. Kakuzu doesn't keep his Domu active 24/7, particularly not when he goes full tendril mode. Sooner or later he, or his masks, are getting blind-sided.



I'd bet on Kakuzu's intellect and mass ninjutsu finding the clam.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Zero feats to suggest Domu is superior to any variant of Susano, including Ribcage, which only slightly cracked from Liger Bomb (an attack far more powerful than anything Domu has challenged).

Madara's ribcage tanked Lightning Oppressed Horitzontal Chop & Lava Release simultaneously. 

Not sure what you're smoking Strategoob.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Incomplete Susano'o was never hyped. Domu was hyped to be weak only against raiton, with excpetions being "close to zero." The non-raiton exceptions I do make are for things like Jinton, TBB, etc. Not Tsunade's hulk smash that Orochimaru walked off after a moment.​


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

I don't really care about hype. I care about feats.

Domu isn't comparable to any Susano's durability features, that won't change. 

So now Orochimaru is as durable as Susano?

Is that what you're implying? 

Part 1 Non-Byakugou Rusty Tsunade's strike didn't blow up Orochimaru, so Part 2 Byakugou Tsunade is now incapable of hurting Kakuzu?


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

You may only care about feats, but I take both into consideration. We don't know the extent of Domu's defenses against non-raitons because a raiton was used to deactivate it before that was necessary. And based on the author's description of the technique in the databook, I don't think Tsunade's punches would be effective on it when they weren't particularly effective on Orochimaru, whose innate bodily resilience I consider inferior to the effects of Domu.​


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Part 1 Rusty Non-Byakugou Tsunade's punches were actually effective, she knocked him out for a moment, then he woke up and retreated. 

So to be fair, they did effect them. Tsunade would've killed him if he didn't retreat. 

To be entirely fair, Part 2 Byakugou Tsunade would rip Part 1 Rusty Non-Byakugou Tsunade apart in 3 seconds.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

Susano'o is clearly overrated, Danzo was able to punch holes in it with a Fuuton, when clearly Sasuke believed it to be a superior defensive technique. Domu on the other hand was said to be completely immune to all physical attacks, with the obvious raiton exception. Domu being as tough as diamond, would be stronger than Susano'o, since Susano'o was punched through. 

Kakuzu's natural body is tough enough shell as it is, considering he survived FRS and you're giving him Domu on top of that. He was already one of the most durable characters to begin with, so with Domu, it's more than possible that he can take on that offensive.

The biggest if, is assuming she gets close enough to hit him, then there's the speed difference and the numbers advantage. Kakuzu likely cuts her in half and leaves her for dead, just like Madara. 



jackieshann said:


> Tsunade is not losing to Kakuzu *you fucking imbecile* no matter how much you want her to. Domu is a fucking B ranked jutsu, she fucking cracked through Madara's Susanoo, that's not even taking into account that one of her chakra nature is lightning.
> 
> Tsunade demolishes Kakuzu end off.



Each time I believe you cannot become any dumber, you end up posting and prove me wrong.

It's been said numerous times that the rank of the jutsu has no particular relationship with the strength. I cannot believe the manga has been over for a year and you still don't know that.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Right. Just as Amaterasu is supposed to be as hot as the sun, or as Haku can move at the speed of light, or as Tsunade and Orochimaru are immortal. Hyperboles are hyperboles for a reason. I very much doubt Domu is _actually_ as hard as diamond.
> 
> She put a giant crack in it with just one hit, by herself. I think that's more than enough evidence to suggest she can bypass Domu.​​


Typical fanboy-infused hypocritical bullshit. 

When Tsunade wankers want to use the databook to prove a point in favor of Tsunade, they can't find enough pages to stuff down other members throats. But when it's being used against her, they have their doubts.

Never change, GT.


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## Aduro (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You may only care about feats, but I take both into consideration. We don't know the extent of Domu's defenses against non-raitons because a raiton was used to deactivate it before that was necessary.​



No limit fallacy. We've only really seen it take building level attacks.



> And based on the author's description of the technique in the databook, I don't think Tsunade's punches would be effective on it when they weren't particularly effective on Orochimaru, whose innate bodily resilience I consider inferior to the effects of Domu.



Screw databook descriptions, and rusty Tsunade punched the crap out of Orochimaru and he was out for a while. As for Madara's susasnoo being overrated, it easily tanked Raikage's attack and Tsunade cracked the ribcage completely. Her feat swinging Gamabunta's sword was calced at Class K too. 

@Ryuzaki, Kakuzu survived FRS but he didn't tank it. It cut off his access to chakra in most of his cells so it did pierce his body. And don't bitch about Tsunade databook feats when only Kakuzu supporters haven't relied on the databooks at all here.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Aduro said:


> No limit fallacy.



"No limits" herp.



Strategoob said:


> Incomplete Susano'o was never hyped. Domu was hyped to be weak only against raiton, with exceptions being "close to zero." *The non-raiton exceptions I do make are for things like Jinton, TBB, etc. Not Tsunade's hulk smash that Orochimaru walked off after a minute.*​


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## Aduro (Aug 17, 2015)

A sanin with great regen survives one punch from rusty Tsunade with a hangover and you take that to ignore it hitting harder than the raikage and breaking the incomplete susasnoo of Madara while she's actually healthy. Domu was broken by raikiri and KaKuzu died to FRS so you assume Kakuzu is immune to conventional force up to bijuudama? I think I can see who doesn't want to understand no limits fallacy here.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Hey Aduro, what does "close to zero" mean to you? Does it mean all the way down to conventional force that Orochimaru literally took to the face and walked off? Or near the top by Jinton and TBB?

Because if you ranked all the offensive jutsu Kage level fighters in the manga by lethality, Tsunade's punches would be mid-tier at best, which doesn't go with the "close to zero" parameter.​


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

> Susano'o is clearly overrated, Danzo was able to punch holes in it with a Fuuton, when clearly Sasuke believed it to be a superior defensive technique. Domu on the other hand was said to be completely immune to all physical attacks, with the obvious raiton exception. Domu being as tough as diamond, would be stronger than Susano'o, since Susano'o was punched through.


Highly doubtful considering it tanked Ei's Descending Lightning Chop & Lava Release simultaneously in it's weakest form (V1). 



> Kakuzu's natural body is tough enough shell as it is, considering he survived FRS and you're giving him Domu on top of that. He was already one of the most durable characters to begin with, so with Domu, it's more than possible that he can take on that offensive


He didn't survive FRS, he survived Wind Rasengan, which is at least half as powerful considering it doesn't hit the target at an accelerated speed (isn't thrown at crossing CST Crater in a second speeds). 



> The biggest if, is assuming she gets close enough to hit him, then there's the speed difference and the numbers advantage. Kakuzu likely cuts her in half and leaves her for dead, just like Madara.


I'm not seeing how Kakuzu cuts her, considering he doesn't have an edged weapon. 

Considering Part 1 Rusty Tsunade wasn't "cut in half" by Kusanagi Blade, a weapon that was equaling Hiruzen's "Diamond-hard" Staff and actually leaving Enma sore, I don't see how Kakuzu's "diamond-hard" body can cut her in half.


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## Aduro (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hey Aduro, what does "close to zero" mean to you? Does it mean all the way down to conventional force that Orochimaru literally took to the face and walked off? Or near the top by Jinton and TBB?
> 
> Because if you ranked all the offensive jutsu Kage level fighters in the manga by lethality, Tsunade's punches would be mid-tier at best, which doesn't go with the "close to zero" parameter.​



I'm not saying Tsunade hits like a Bijudama, but by feats she doesn't need to hit much harder than non-butterfly, non-full-giant, basically chunin-level choji, which is the best Kakuzu actually blocked with Domu on panel or by hype. And by blocked I don't mean had a heart punched through or got stabbed a few million times and became unable to move.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

That's my point with the problem of "purely by feats" thinking. "By feats" Yata Mirror tops out at exploding tags. Its limits are unexplored. It _has_ limits, but we don't know them.

So we measure hype, account for hyperbole, and guestimate. My guestimate based on hype is that Domu is only beaten by raitons and "close to zero" other jutsu means it tanks Tsunade's punches.

I don't think it's hyperbolic of the DB to say only a few non-raitons work on it either. And Tsunade's punches aren't high enough to work on it for me. Here are a "few" non-raitons I can see overcoming it:


Beast Bomb
Jinton
Amaterasu
Rasenshuriken
Shiki Fūjin
Hachimon
Kamui
Totsuka
Chou Shinra Tensei
Daikoden 
c3
c4
Chou Ransegan (maybe)
Satetsu
Jyuken

So you can see my "close to zero" interpretation is 15+ techniques. That's not "no limits," is it? The main reason I don't think Tsunade's punches will be effective is because their blunt damage.

You'll notice some jutsu that aren't blunt damage and aren't up there, like Hien, Mifune's chakra blades, etc. I don't think they'd pierce it, simply because that's my take on hype and feel.

Lastly, consider Kakuzu's anatomy even without Domu. He's composed of black strings, which is pretty great as far as shock absorption goes, sort of like Suigetsu (although not as good.)​


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## Aduro (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That's my point with the problem of "purely by feats" thinking. "By feats" Yata Mirror tops out at exploding tags. Its limits are unexplored. It _has_ limits, but we don't know them.​




What do you think Itachi blocked Kirin with? An umbrella? and there's this: 



> So we measure hype, account for hyperbole, and guestimate. My guestimate based on hype is that Domu is only beaten by raitons and "close to zero" other jutsu means it tanks Tsunade's punches.


What hype? Outside of the databooks what hype can you actually show me to say Kakuzu can take a hit so well? And besides, you don't measure hype because if you do then Kakuzu must not be dead becayse hype made him immortal and he must be god-tier because he said he fought Hashirama. That's the reason for no lmits fallacy, you have to go by what has happened, not what was alluded to. Its not having our own self-confessed "guesstimation" that it probably couldn't take certain jutsu. Check 3, 13 and 17 on the list: 



> Lastly, consider Kakuzu's anatomy even without Domu. He's composed of black strings, which is pretty great as far as shock absorption goes, sort of like Suigetsu (although not as good.)


His masks are not however, and contain hearts to crush, said masks are always exposed before during and after attacks.​


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## FlamingRain (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hey Aduro, what does "close to zero" mean to you?
> 
> Does it mean all the way down to conventional force that Orochimaru literally took to the face and walked off? Or near the top by Jinton and TBB?​



It's _"close to zero"_ in a verse where there are literally thousands of techniques that could possibly be thrown at it.

_"Close to zero"_ hype fails to carry that much weight anymore when we see Sasuke's Susano'o protecting him from Ay's _"nobody's survived that before"_-Liger Bomb before being breached by his Raigyaku Suihei, Madara's Susano'o withstanding even that attack without issue, and then Tsunade shattering _even that Susano'o_ with her _legendary_ strength.

_"Nothing and no one could receive a direct hit and avoid pulverization"_ is the kind of hype the databook gives to Tsunade's physical power, so it wouldn't be surprising for it to be one of those techniques that can breach Doton: Domu.

Orochimaru being able to survive a blow from a Tsunade (which was apparently _surprising_ for everyone present) is more of a testament to his own extraordinary hardiness as a character that symbolizes rebirth and regeneration like a white snake than anything else.


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## ARGUS (Aug 17, 2015)

He beats hiruzen rasa gengetsu and mei 
Loses to the rest


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Aduro said:


> What hype? Outside of the databooks what hype can you actually show me





> From a guy over a century old that fought Hashirama.



FlamingRain said:


> _"Close to zero"_ hype fails to carry that much weight anymore when we see Sasuke's Susano'o protecting him from Ay's _"nobody's survived that before"_-Liger Bomb



I don't see how one disproves the other.

No one had ever dodged v1 Bee's lariat before Sasuke either.

Does that mean Minato couldn't? No, because that's not how it works.



FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru being able to survive a blow from a Tsunade (which was apparently _surprising_ for everyone present) is more of a testament to his own extraordinary hardiness as a character.



And Kakuzu's is higher still.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Lightning worked on him, lightning is physical, so that statement doesn't really apply. Jinton, C4, Truth Seekers, Daikodan, Kamui, Preta Path, Amaterasu, all physical attacks that work on him, the hype is generally baseless. 

Susano has far more hype considering it was Indra's signature technique, and it derives from a Dojutsu that Kaguya first possessed. The moment it was revealed at the summit, several Kage-level shinobi gazed in awe [1], [2] then quickly opted to retreat. 

Domu is a B-rank technique, it's best tanking feat is Choji's human bullet, a technique that wouldn't even scratch the ribcage of a Susano. His own teammate, Hidan, has superior tanking features (*B-rank* Wind Release: Pressure Damage, *B-rank* Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning), both of which didn't hinder his fighting ability whatsoever. 

Feat-wise Susano blows it out of the water. It's weakest incarnations have vastly superior tanking features (Liger Bomb, Lightning Oppressed Horizontal Chop, Lava Release).


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Yes, it does apply to all techniques that aren't lightning based, which was stated at the beginning of this debate...



> *A body like diamond, repelling everything!!*
> 
> With the chakra flowing through all parts of one's body, the skin is hardened, _*increasing its defence power to its utmost limits.*_ Furthermore, the destructive power of human bullet attacks** is increased, making this a great all-purpose technique. *The amount of techniques that can break through the areas hardened by the "Earth Spear" are close to zero, not including its undeniable weak point: "Lightning Release Ninjutsu".*
> 
> ...


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## The Undying (Aug 17, 2015)

I disagree with the idea of Kakuzu defeating even old Hiruzen, to be honest. That Hiruzen was stalemating with Orochimaru, and there's absolutely no reason for me to believe he operates on the level of the Sannin.

He has his chances to take out Rasa and possibly Gaara as well depending on the location. Mei is entirely capable of pushing him to extreme difficulty with her abilities IMO, so that can go either way.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Highly doubtful considering it tanked Ei's Descending Lightning Chop & Lava Release simultaneously in it's weakest form (V1).


Yeah, one of the weakest (physically) guys with a ninjutsu was able to poke holes in it. Domu, only lost to it's natural weakness, which is acceptable. I still find it to be a tad bit overrated, assuming the principle behind Danzo's techniques, anyone with a piercing technique should have been able to break through Susano'o, 3rd Raikage would have just fingered it.



DaVizWiz said:


> He didn't survive FRS, he survived Wind Rasengan, which is at least half as powerful considering it doesn't hit the target at an accelerated speed (isn't thrown at crossing CST Crater in a second speeds).


When Naruto hit him with FRS, he still lived, Kakashi had to kill him off afterwards when he was in the crater. That was all Kakuzu in his base durability that is without a doubt one of the better survival feats. Kakuzu by himself has insane durability on his own, give him Domu on top of that, it's more than enough to tank Susano'o.



DaVizWiz said:


> I'm not seeing how Kakuzu cuts her, considering he doesn't have an edged weapon.
> 
> Considering Part 1 Rusty Tsunade wasn't "cut in half" by Kusanagi Blade, a weapon that was equaling Hiruzen's "Diamond-hard" Staff and actually leaving Enma sore, I don't see how Kakuzu's "diamond-hard" body can cut her in half.


Raiton: Gian is an attack from one of the masked beasts, it can increase the numbers of spears to several instead of 1 or 2 and it has the ability to paralyze/slice her apart.

			
				Databook Description said:
			
		

> The user emits lightning in the shape of a spear from its mouth, which then pierces the enemy. Its destructive power is great enough to even pierce through rock; meaning it has a high killing potential. The user can increase the number of spears to attack multiple enemies. This, coupled with the sheer speed of the lightning, makes it a difficult technique to evade. This technique is capable of being focused into a straight beam, similar to a laser. Kakuzu is able to use this through his lightning-element mask.


This would leave Tsunade in a precarious position, especially if you think about the speed advantage, numbers advantages, ranged ninjutsu advantage. She's at an exceptional disadvantage, Kakuzu with all his masks out, is going to be hard to kill, especially when they start working on their own accord.

She can most likely tank most of the techniques but I don't see her stopping a piercing attack via raiton gian. It doesn't matter if her Byakogu is active or not either, she'll just lose blood and be unable to maintain her life force, just like against Madara.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Yes, it does apply to all techniques that aren't lightning based, which was stated at the beginning of this debate...


No, Kakuzu said nothing about lightning techniques. He said all physical attacks don't work on him, and he was lying, because a panel later he was stuck through with a physical attack. The statement is baseless. 



> Yeah, one of the weakest (physically) guys with a ninjutsu was able to poke holes in it. Domu, only lost to it's natural weakness, which is acceptable. I still find it to be a tad bit overrated, assuming the principle behind Danzo's techniques, anyone with a piercing technique should have been able to break through Susano'o, 3rd Raikage would have just fingered it.


It's not really acceptable. FRS only managed to diffuse the 3rd Raikage's lightning cloak, despite it being the strongest futon technique in the entire narutoverse (S-rank), and futon being the natural weakness of Lightning. The lightning cloak also being a B-rank technique, just like Domu. 

His Nukite managed to pierce the same cloak and go directly through his mid section, despite it being the same element (no advantage), and being a lower-ranked technique (B) than FRS. 

Overall, the elemental advantage thing isn't really an excuse. There are definitely other elemental techniques capable of flooring that defense, one of which is it's own element (Doton: Super Aggrivated Weighted Rock Punch), perhaps at a greater efficiency than lightning element technique, just as there were other elemental techniques capable of flooring the 3rd Raikage's defense (including his own Raiton technique, which had no advantage) that are not wind element variants. 



> When Naruto hit him with FRS, he still lived, Kakashi had to kill him off afterwards when he was in the crater. That was all Kakuzu in his base durability that is without a doubt one of the better survival feats. Kakuzu by himself has insane durability on his own, give him Domu on top of that, it's more than enough to tank Susano'o.


I mean, that's great, but the technique was uncompleted, wasn't amplified with Sage Mode and didn't hit him at supersonic speed like FRS would have. 

Kakuzu's chakra network was destroyed according to the technique's description, and he was completely paralyzed. 



> Raiton: Gian is an attack from one of the masked beasts, it can increase the numbers of spears to several instead of 1 or 2 and it has the ability to paralyze/slice her apart.​This would leave Tsunade in a precarious position, especially if you think about the speed advantage, numbers advantages, ranged ninjutsu advantage. She's at an exceptional disadvantage, Kakuzu with all his masks out, is going to be hard to kill, especially when they start working on their own accord.


Again, considering Kusanagi (hyped to cut almost anything, blocked diamond-hard staff) did not cut her in half- why would a B-rank lightning technique?

5% Katsuyu would hard counter all of those masks, tanking their attacks with relative ease, and spitting acid oceans on them. 



> She can most likely tank most of the techniques but I don't see her stopping a piercing attack via raiton gian. It doesn't matter if her Byakogu is active or not either, she'll just lose blood and be unable to maintain her life force, just like against Madara.


If anything I'd argue the Wind/Katon combo putting her down, not the Raiton technique, especially considering she's a Raiton user.

Since when does ranged lightning bolts cut people in half anyway? I always thought lightning bolts traveled through the body and fried it inside out. Cutting in half is more akin to the wind element.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't see how one disproves the other.



The point (which your example has nothing to do with) is that when you start getting into the most exceptional of abilities, you'd need to bring more to the table than that kind of hype if you want to get anywhere.

There being extremely few techniques that can break through Doton: Domu doesn't mean that much _here_ because there are extremely few techniques that even rival the destructive force of a strike from Tsunade in the first place.



> And Kakuzu's is higher still.



No it isn't.

His skin is harder than Orochimaru's when he uses Doton: Domu, but it isn't Orochimaru's skin that makes him so hard to kill, so it doesn't matter.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The point (which your example has nothing to do with) is that when you start getting into the most exceptional of abilities, you'd need to bring more to the table than that kind of hype if you want to get anywhere.
> 
> There being extremely few techniques that can break through Doton: Domu doesn't mean that much _here_ because there are extremely few techniques that even rival the destructive force of a strike from Tsunade in the first place.



I listed 15 that I thought that'd work on it.

15 isn't "close to zero" so much as it's "close to ten."

So I'm being more than generous in being skeptical with the hype. 



FlamingRain said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> His skin is harder than Orochimaru's when he uses Doton: Domu, but it isn't Orochimaru's skin that makes him so hard to kill, so it doesn't matter.



And Kakuzu's made of black string and survived the FRS.

So him tanking punches _even without Domu_ is justified.

Unless you think Tsunade's punch = FRS too? You probably do.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 18, 2015)

Kakuzu wasn't hit with FRS, he was hit with an incomplete version of it, a technique that ins't enhanced with Natural Energy and doesn't hit a target at super sonic speeds with circling outer wind blades that cut through targets [1] even prior to exploding. 

You don't seem to understand the difference between those techniques.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, Kakuzu said nothing about lightning techniques. He said all physical attacks don't work on him, and he was lying, because a panel later he was stuck through with a physical attack. The statement is baseless.



The databook gives it a basis. You're just ignoring it because you're wrong.

Domu has a weakness. Raitons. Nearly all other attacks won't work. DB.

Kakuzu didn't give away the weakness for obvious reasons.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Kakuzu wasn't hit with FRS, he was hit with Wind Rasengan, a technique that ins't enhanced with Natural Energy and isn't thrown at super sonic speeds.
> 
> You don't seem to understand the difference between those techniques.



Semantics. Do you think Tsunade's punch is > ?

Because if you don't, then you're just wasting my time with bullshit.

And I'd rather us not waste our time on bullshit.

Then again, this is a forum discussing Naruto. Checkmate, Strategos.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 18, 2015)

The real question is whether or not you think Raikiri is superior to Tsunade's strike. 

Tsunade's strike being the one that shattered part of a Susano, Raikiri being the technique that could not penetrate a V2 Jinchuriki cloak- but had no issue penetrating Kakuzu's Domu Defense, going through his back destroying a large portion of inner flesh, peering out the front side of his torso and through the Domu Defense on his torso again in a single thrust.

Elemental advantage over Domu or not, he still inflicted a relatively large wound on and inside of his body after going through that defense.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> The real question is whether or not you think Raikiri is superior to Tsunade's strike.



For piercing doton defenses?

For piercing in general?

Abso-fucking-lutely.


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## Amol (Aug 18, 2015)

Tell me this is a joke.
Tsunade punches and that overrated Domu breaks.
What feat does it have to tank susanoo busting attack?
'' but but Kakuzu said that no physical attack work against it''
So?
Since when we are giving character statement especially one that reeks NLF second thought?
Sakura also said that she catched up with Naruto and Sasuke after seeing BM and PS.
Domu is nothing but a tough defense.
You bet your ass that enough physical force will break it.
This either has to be case of extreme Tsunade underestimation or Kakuzu(especially his Domu's) overestimation.


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## Turrin (Aug 18, 2015)

Hiruzen (old) - Beats Kakuzu with superior mastery of elemental wheel

Tsunade - With Byakugo and Katsuya she should win with a considerable amount of difficult

Rasa - Gold Dust Tsunami GG

Gaara - SPII-Gaara would probably loose to Kakuzu, but any later incarnation should win.

Oonoki - Jinton GG

Muu - Jinton GG

Raikagernaut (3rd) - Kakuzu can't harm him

4th A - Kakuzu could possibly pull the win with clever usage of Fuuton, but overall Ei is likely taking it more often than not

Trollkage - Joki Boi GG

Mei - I could see it going ether way depending on how effective Futton and Youton are against Doton Domu.

----------

If the general question is, is Kakuzu Kage-level. Than the answer is yes, as he's stronger than thee weakest Kage SPII-Gaara and can possibly step to the second weakest Kage, Mei,  with varying odds. However the power levels really aren't as hard to make out as people believe they are, Kakuzu was a major villain for Wind-Arc Naruto, Wind-Arc Kakashi, and Wind-Arc Shikkamaru. While most other Kages were fighting much more impressive enemies.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 18, 2015)

Hiruzen (old)-L
Tsunade-W
Rasa-W
Gaara-W
Oonoki-L
Muu-W
Raikagernaut (3rd)-L
4th A-L
Trollkage-W
Mei-W


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 18, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's not really acceptable. FRS only managed to diffuse the 3rd Raikage's lightning cloak, despite it being the strongest futon technique in the entire narutoverse (S-rank), and futon being the natural weakness of Lightning. The lightning cloak also being a B-rank technique, just like Domu.
> 
> Again, considering Kusanagi (hyped to cut almost anything, blocked diamond-hard staff) did not cut her in half- why would a B-rank lightning technique?
> 
> His Nukite managed to pierce the same cloak and go directly through his mid section, despite it being the same element (no advantage), and being a lower-ranked technique (B) than FRS.


A rank of a technique doesn't imply the strength of the jutsu, you seem to think that just because a jutsu is difficult to master the end results would mean it's has to be stronger, that is obviously not the case. 



DaVizWiz said:


> Overall, the elemental advantage thing isn't really an excuse. There are definitely other elemental techniques capable of flooring that defense, one of which is it's own element (Doton: Super Aggrivated Weighted Rock Punch), perhaps at a greater efficiency than lightning element technique, just as there were other elemental techniques capable of flooring the 3rd Raikage's defense (including his own Raiton technique, which had no advantage) that are not wind element variants.
> 
> I mean, that's great, but the technique was uncompleted, wasn't amplified with Sage Mode and didn't hit him at supersonic speed like FRS would have.
> 
> ...


Even if the technique was only half completed, Kakuzu with just his base durability was able to survive it. That speaks to his durable nature and my point in establishing his base durability was to state that Domu's naturally am impregnable defense, with the exception the elemental wheel. That doton-based technique isn't stated to have toughness like a diamond, so the odds of that breaking it are close to nil.

I don't think Katsuyu would be used offensively in tandem with Tsunade. When engaging Madara's 5 Susano'os, logically it would have made sense to summon Katsuyu and melt the Susano'o with her acid, however she didn't do this, which leads me to believe that Katsuyu, isn't necessarily an offensive summon and wouldn't benefit her on the field in such a position. 

Being a raiton user doesn't mean you are able to automatically establish your expertise in that element. She has displayed close to 0 elemental ninjutsu and has the reputation of being close-range taijutsu user at best. Gian has an explosive amount of chakra and takes the shapes of spears which can be multiplied to several, she would get chopped/paralyzed, since it's a cutting technique.

The other thing is that her careless fighting style leads me to believe that she would end up in the same position after fighting Madara. The only way i see for her to winning is if she catches Kakuzu off guard and rips his head off, because the damage sustained from her punches is something I can see him stitching with those threads while the new heart comes in.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Amol said:


> What feat does it have to tank susanoo busting attack?



A "rib-cage-cracking" attack? 

Bruh, I'm an insane Itachi fan and I'm saying Domu > Rib Cage Susano'o.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 18, 2015)

Looks like it's just us Strat.


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## Grimsley (Aug 18, 2015)

Domu literally has no feats. 

Edit: Oh Ryuzaki you were the one who made that Suigetsu vs Tsunade thread, ah ok whatever.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Most jutsu don't have limit-finding feats.

We extrapolate.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I listed 15 that I thought that'd work on it.
> 
> 15 isn't "close to zero" so much as it's "close to ten.".



Exactly. "Close to zero" is just another way to say "not very many". The entry just means a small number, and that's in relation to who knows how many thousands of techniques that could possibly be thrown at it.

Tsunade's insane power has been in at least the same boat for offense since she was introduced though, so her attacks being among the relatively few that can actually break Doton: Domu wouldn't necessarily contradict any of that.

Kabuto could take a completed Rasengan yet admitted that Tsunade would kill him in one shot. Initial Kyūbi-tails Naruto hitting Orochimaru in the face and sending him hurtling a football field's distance through a forest didn't get him anywhere, but Tsunade hitting Orochimaru in the face had Kabuto panicked and ended the fight. Raikage couldn't scratch Madara's Susano'o with the same attack he used to break through Sasuke's, then Tsunade went and shattered it. She later punched a hole in Madara so large _she flew through the other side_. Sakura blasted away at least 50 Jūblings in one shot and Hashirama still wasn't sure she hit harder than Tsunade.

The destructive capacity she possesses is of a great enough caliber that databook claims of near-invulnerability alone aren't sufficient to discard it, and her feats more than justify the assumption that she can break it.



> And Kakuzu's made of black string and survived the FRS.



Which, again, doesn't matter as far as Tsunade's strike vs. Doton: Domu is concerned. Outside of that Tsunade could just use Ranshinshō and then destroy Kakuzu while he can't move, if his tentacle-filled body is indeed a problem (though I doubt it would be).

When Kakuzu got hit with FRS he died twice and his spare was incapacitated. It's likely only because the tentacles were surrounding his actual body at the time he was hit that he didn't die three times (i.e.- it required most of the needles to eat through the tendrils).

I'm also not thinking he's actually _made of_ the tentacles because when he projects his hand to dig underground we see that there are only so many connecting it to the heart nearby and the rest is apparently flesh. 

Either way he'd still easily die to something like a Chidori: Eisō, whereas Orochimaru would survive it just fine. Kakashi could hit Orochimaru with 5 Raikiris and it wouldn't kill him- it'd kill Kakuzu. Kabuto could still scalpel his insides through Domu, having his insides scalpel'd simply wouldn't kill Orochimaru, who can be bifurcated and split into pieces only to return like nothing happened.

Kakuzu hasn't gotten more emphasis on being hard to kill than Orochimaru has.



> Unless you think Tsunade's punch = FRS too? You probably do.



Now you're just being infantile.

You'd think I was talking about Itachi or something.


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## Aduro (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Most jutsu don't have limit-finding feats.
> 
> We extrapolate.



Extrapolate based on powerscaling, calcs and feats, not one character jobbing about his jutsu to his enemy or a databook full of extremely stupid exaggerations.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 18, 2015)

Kakuzu was introduced as a formidable enemy who almost killed Kakashi and got tons of battle experience.

However during the war unlike Nagato, Itachi and the edo kages he was just a minor enemy who was defeated off panel and hardly a worthy threat. It did not take neither Naruto nor any actual kage to handle him.

Probably any kage can beat him though those that are among the weakest like Gaaras dad or Mei wouldnt win so easily. I put Kakuzu as borderline kage but not quite there.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> v2 Susano'o (or clone v2) < Domu IMO.



That's pretty baseless. 



> I'd bet on Kakuzu's intellect and mass ninjutsu finding the clam.



How does his intellect help him to find the clam? He doesn't have strong sensory abilities. Gaara was losing against Gengetsu up until he found the clam using his sand sensing, might I remind you, and War Arc Gaara is just as smart as Kakuzu is. Furthermore, Gaara only knew to look for the clam and destroy it .. because Gengetsu told him to. Kakuzu won't have that luxury.

As for large AoE ninjutsu, they are not that effective purely because they might be fired in wrong direction, or even if they did hit the clam, they might not even fully destroy it. That's also assuming Gengetsu doesn't destroy all of Kakuzu's masks first. After all, Kakuzu has no idea where the real Gengetsu is, and his hearts can be ambushed at any angle.



Strategoob said:


> Incomplete Susano'o was never hyped.



_Wrong_.



> Domu was hyped to be weak only against raiton, with excpetions being "close to zero." The non-raiton exceptions I do make are for things like Jinton, TBB, etc. Not Tsunade's hulk smash that Orochimaru walked off after a moment.



Orochimaru didn't walk it off with durability or resilience, because he got KO'd. It was his white snake power that allowed him to recover and get up again. Its akin to arguing that Madara walked off a meteor landing on top of him .. he didn't, he was crippled by it, he just recovered quickly with edo tensei regeneration.



Ryuzaki said:


> Susano'o is clearly overrated, Danzo was able to punch holes in it with a Fuuton, when clearly Sasuke believed it to be a superior defensive technique.



And yet a lesser form of Sasuke's Susano'o could also block Kabuto's Senpou: Muki Tensei. It speaks volumes of how powerful Danzou's offense was under the influence of Baku's suction, not of how weak Susano'o defense was. 



> Domu on the other hand was said to be completely immune to all physical attacks, with the obvious raiton exception. Domu being as tough as diamond, would be stronger than Susano'o, since Susano'o was punched through.



It obviously isn't as tough as diamond, that was a hyperbole.



> Kakuzu's natural body is tough enough shell as it is, considering he survived FRS and you're giving him Domu on top of that. He was already one of the most durable characters to begin with, so with Domu, it's more than possible that he can take on that offensive.



Kakuzu's _natural body_ got sliced up by Izumo and Kotetsu's swords. He isn't as durable as you're giving him credit for. Even when he survived from Naruto's weaker Rasenshuriken, he was still crippled and left totally immobile. It was hardly an impressive feat. 



> The biggest if, is assuming she gets close enough to hit him, then there's the speed difference



The 0.5 speed difference? Yeah, that's pretty negligible, especially since Shikamaru had no issue evading Kakuzu, and he's way slower than Tsunade is. You also conveniently leave out that Tsunade is a good bit better than Kakuzu at taijutsu,  which helps to make up for the already small speed gap. 



> and the numbers advantage.





GG.



> Kakuzu likely cuts her in half and leaves her for dead, just like Madara.



He would need to be much faster, and much, much better at taijutsu. Otherwise he's going to need a massive Susano'o or mokuton, and last time I checked he possessed neither.



> Typical fanboy-infused hypocritical bullshit.
> 
> When Tsunade wankers want to use the databook to prove a point in favor of Tsunade, they can't find enough pages to stuff down other members throats. But when it's being used against her, they have their doubts.





Tsunade's DB entry is as much of a hyperbole as any other. She obviously isn't immortal because if she gets hit by a jinton or a FRS or something she's gonna be dead. 

I _implore_ you to find a recent post from me that suggests that I think otherwise. And for the record, the opinions of other Tsunade fans have absolutely nothing to do with me, so don't randomly categorize me as a hypocrite just because you have issues with other people on the forum.



> Never change, GT.



I never will. ​​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's pretty baseless.​​



Your entire fandom is baseless. 

You'd make a much better Itachi fan.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> And yet a lesser form of Sasuke's Susano'o could also block Kabuto's Senpou: Muki Tensei. It speaks volumes of how powerful Danzou's offense was under the influence of Baku's suction, not of how weak Susano'o defense was.


Doesn't make it any less impressive that it got breached by a penetrating-based technique. Meaning the potential for using ninjutsu to bypass Susano'o obviously exists.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> It obviously isn't as tough as diamond, that was a hyperbole.


Doubt it, but if that's what you want to believe, sure go ahead, just know that the author obviously mentioned that statement as an emphasis of establishing credibility.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakuzu's _natural body_ got sliced up by Izumo and Kotetsu's swords. He isn't as durable as you're giving him credit for. Even when he survived from Naruto's weaker Rasenshuriken, he was still crippled and left totally immobile. It was hardly an impressive feat.


As opposed to the Pain bodies that were eviscerated? Being crippled and surviving is more than enough. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> The 0.5 speed difference? Yeah, that's pretty negligible, especially since Shikamaru had no issue evading Kakuzu, and he's way slower than Tsunade is. You also conveniently leave out that Tsunade is a good bit better than Kakuzu at taijutsu,  which helps to make up for the *already small speed gap*.


In a 1 vs. 1 situation, she's not going to be able to, once she comes in close, sure her taijutsu will overcome that but the odds of her coming in close are really slim. She's still rated a Beginning of Part 2, Naruto level. 

But yeah, who am I kidding, that was the same speed gap between Kakashi/Kakuzu and Kakuzu didn't even sense him coming. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> GG.


If Katsuyu is so amazing that she can take on these flying beasts, where was she against the 5 Susano'o? 

Furthermore, her being split up is used to heal people, it's not an offensive technique. Don't know where people get that idea from.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> He would need to be much faster, and much, much better at taijutsu. Otherwise he's going to need a massive Susano'o or mokuton, and last time I checked he possessed neither.


He's got enough speed, his mid-range fighting style already keeps her at bay and his durability is bar none. She's going to need do something else in order to get to him, something OOC and not in her arsenal. She has no long range based ninjutsu.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade's DB entry is as much of a hyperbole as any other. She obviously isn't immortal because if she gets hit by a jinton or a FRS or something she's gonna be dead.
> 
> I _implore_ you to find a recent post from me that suggests that I think otherwise. And for the record, the opinions of other Tsunade fans have absolutely nothing to do with me, so don't randomly categorize me as a hypocrite just because you have issues with other people on the forum.


Just calling it how I've seen it so far this summer but I can't blame you for taking the stands you do, I'm sure anyone would for their favorite character 


jackieshann said:


> Domu literally has no feats.
> 
> Edit: Oh Ryuzaki you were the one who made that Suigetsu vs Tsunade thread, ah ok whatever.



You're underestimating Kakuzu's physical strength on his own, he was able to stop the paw of a fully transformed bijuu. His base durability speaks for itself. Kishimoto went out of his way to explain that Domu is as tough as diamond, which is essentially one of the toughest naturally occurring elements.

Assuming she hits him with all of her force, there's a greater chance for Kakuzu to lose his footing before she manages to break through Domu (assuming she can). The only way she has a chance to win is to attack him outside of Domu and in a close range scenario (which is highly unlikely).

Kakuzu has the numbers advantages, the techniques advantage and the jutsu advantage. At best she can do is to make this a fight of attrition but given her propensity to just take enemy attacks head on, I don't see how she would win that either.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 20, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Doesn't make it any less impressive that it got breached by a penetrating-based technique. Meaning the potential for using ninjutsu to bypass Susano'o obviously exists.



Yes it does. Sage techniques >>> most other ninjutsu in power. If a Sage-chakra empowered ninjutsu couldn't bypass a lower level Susano'o, yet Danzou's vacuum powered fuuton could bypass a higher levelled one, then it speaks volumes for how powerful his attack was.

And obviously ninjutsu can bypass Susano'o, but only incredibly powerful ones, _like Danzou's fuuton_.



> Doubt it, but if that's what you want to believe, sure go ahead, just know that the author obviously mentioned that statement as an *emphasis of establishing credibility*.



He meant it as emphasis, yes. That's what hyperboles are made for, _emphasis_. It doesn't mean you have to take them literally, which you have for some reason decided to do.



> As opposed to the Pain bodies that were eviscerated? Being crippled and surviving is more than enough.



Eviscerated by a more powerful version of the technique, yes.



> In a 1 vs. 1 situation, she's not going to be able to, once she comes in close, sure her taijutsu will overcome that but the odds of her coming in close are really slim. She's still rated a Beginning of Part 2, Naruto level.



Your argument is full of contradictions. On one hand, you argue the speed gap is so large that Kakuzu will walk up to her and blitz.. but on the other hand, you argue Tsunade will never be up close to Kakuzu? Pick a side and stay on it. And l o l @ at Tsunade being on the same level as beginning of Part II Naruto.



> But yeah, who am I kidding, that was the same speed gap between Kakashi/Kakuzu and Kakuzu didn't even sense him coming.



Kakuzu ambushed Kakashi from behind after he was presumed dead. There's a difference between that and 1 on 1 combat, something Kakuzu and Kakashi never participated in. And even then, Kakuzu ambushed Shikamaru from behind too, and it didn't stop him from dodging.



> If Katsuyu is so amazing that she can take on these flying beasts,



Katsuyu tanked Chou Shinra Tensei, and can otherwise liquify herself to avoid Gian and Zukokku. Several hundred thousand Katsuyu clones would have no problem overwhelming four of those masks.



> where was she against the 5 Susano'o?



Katsuyu clones are ineffective against Susano'o defenses. The same can't be said of Kakuzu's masks.



> Furthermore, her being split up is used to heal people, it's not an offensive technique. Don't know where people get that idea from.



From the idea that a Katsuyu division canonically attempted to acid blast Orochimaru, and all Katsuyu divisions can canonically spit acid. 



> He's got enough speed, his mid-range fighting style already keeps her at bay and his durability is bar none. She's going to need do something else in order to get to him, something OOC and not in her arsenal. She has no long range based ninjutsu.



Kakuzu always fires wires at his opponents, and against every single opponent he ever fought, it was always the first move he ever made. So Tsunade just reels him into close range and smashes his face in. Otherwise, Katsuyu keeps his masks mostly preoccupied, and leaves Tsunade to deal with Kakuzu in a 1v1.




> Just calling it how I've seen it so far this summer but I can't blame you for taking the stands you do, I'm sure anyone would for their favorite character



So you can't find any posts then? Concession accepted.​​


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## mylastduchess (Aug 23, 2015)

Why is there several pages of Tsunade's punches vs Doton Domu's "immunity to taijutsu" when Tsunade's punches are considered to be *ninjutsu*?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm pretty sure Doton: Domu's databook entry just says techniques, not "Taijutsu techniques".

But does it matter?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 23, 2015)

> If Katsuyu is so amazing that she can take on these flying beasts, where was she against the 5 Susano'o?



Katsuyu was so strong Kishi couldn't allow more than 5% of it to show up on panel.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 23, 2015)

Had no idea you responded





Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yes it does. Sage techniques >>> most other ninjutsu in power. If a Sage-chakra empowered ninjutsu couldn't bypass a lower level Susano'o, yet Danzou's vacuum powered fuuton could bypass a higher levelled one, then it speaks volumes for how powerful his attack was.
> 
> And obviously ninjutsu can bypass Susano'o, but only incredibly powerful ones, _like Danzou's fuuton_.


Yeah, Danzo was primarily a wind-based ninjutsu user, it was his innate element, much in the very same respect to each of the hearts that Kakuzu had stacked up. I don't see how that makes him any less impressive on his own account, basically barring higher variants of Susano'o, Domu has been rated as the next best defensive jutsu.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> He meant it as emphasis, yes. That's what hyperboles are made for, _emphasis_. It doesn't mean you have to take them literally, which you have for some reason decided to do.


Since the author stated it and made a point about it, when they were engaging in the fight, it's safe to say that he meant it literally. The defense itself states that it negates all physical attacks. The point of comparison is to diamond, which in a nutshell is one the toughest naturally occurring element. So much so, that it's comparison to it, establishes it's strength and toughness. 

You are welcome to disagree all you want.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Eviscerated by a more powerful version of the technique, yes.


You're beating around the bush, I've already proved Kakuzu's base durability and strength in the thread before our discussion, you're welcome to look at it.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Your argument is full of contradictions. On one hand, you argue the speed gap is so large that Kakuzu will walk up to her and blitz.. but on the other hand, you argue Tsunade will never be up close to Kakuzu? Pick a side and stay on it. And l o l @ at Tsunade being on the same level as beginning of Part II Naruto.
> 
> Kakuzu ambushed Kakashi from behind after he was presumed dead. There's a difference between that and 1 on 1 combat, something Kakuzu and Kakashi never participated in. *And even then, Kakuzu ambushed Shikamaru from behind too, and it didn't stop him from dodging.*


How so? All I did was establish an exceptionally uphill battle Tsunade has to climb in order to beat him. Now, if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume she has the speed to hit him and is not taken down by the masks before she can execute her technique, she still has to worry about Kakuzu's insane durability and then you have Domu on top of that, to boot. 

But in all likelihood, given Kakuzu's a mid range performer, speed advantage and the fact that she has to keep track of multiple targets, she's not bridging any speed gaps (however large or small you may claim them to be). 

As for the part in bold, Kakuzu not even sensing Kakashi's approach negates that possibility. In essence this is a situation where someone didn't hear the sound of the bullet that killed him.


Godaime Tsunade said:


> Katsuyu tanked Chou Shinra Tensei, and can otherwise liquify herself to avoid Gian and Zukokku. Several hundred thousand Katsuyu clones would have no problem overwhelming four of those masks.
> 
> Katsuyu clones are ineffective against Susano'o defenses. The same can't be said of Kakuzu's masks.
> 
> From the idea that a Katsuyu division canonically attempted to acid blast Orochimaru, and all Katsuyu divisions can canonically spit acid.


Katsuyu is not an offensive-based summon, I'm not sure where this retarded idea came from, aside from her obvious advantage over snakes, there was really nothing else that warrants her on the battlefield outside amplifying Tsunade's healing reach. 

Furthermore, even against 5 vs. 1, Susano'os, Tsunade never summoned Katsuyu when in fact she could have used that so called durability to defend herself from the strikes. It's obvious that your blatantly hyping her up for no reason but the mere fact that she was left out of the battle until the very end speaks volumes to her lack of usefulness in actual combat.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakuzu always fires wires at his opponents, and against every single opponent he ever fought, it was always the first move he ever made. So Tsunade just reels him into close range and smashes his face in. Otherwise, *Katsuyu keeps his masks mostly preoccupied*, and leaves Tsunade to deal with Kakuzu in a 1v1.


Yeah, you're assuming that Tsunade would summon Katsuyu right off the bat, she's not Jiraiya whose IC move is to summon something, so that wouldn't happen. And the biggest difference here is even though, Kakuzu does fire the wires but has the numbers advantage and has a unique enough physiology and durability/strength to parry the hit to some degree.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> So you can't find any posts then? Concession accepted.


Yeah, I don't give enough of a fuck to go through your post history in the recent months. It's obvious you're about the same, given the lengths you would go to defend your favorite character. As I said, I would probably do the same, as well, so I don't hold it against you.

But if you want recent posts, check the one of the more recent Deidara vs. Tsunade threads, back in May, that was when I became active again, I'm sure you'll find something of use there.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 24, 2015)

The idea comes from the fact that the slug's very introduction into the series was being the first offensive option Tsunade went with after she relinquished the only thing restricting her from summoning in the first place (fear of blood), and Orochimaru/Kabuto immediately opting to hastily summon Manda in response once they realized what Tsunade was up to. There's also the databook stating that Katsuyu fights on equal footing with Gamabunta and Manda and eventually threatening Orochimaru with her acid again, while we're at it.


The real question ought to be where the heck the notion that she's somehow not a combat-summon and has no business on the battlefield outside of helping Tsunade heal came from, but Ryuzaki will be Ryuzaki I guess.


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## mylastduchess (Aug 24, 2015)

Where is this legendary feat that dolton domo has produced? What was the strongest jutsu it tanked anyway? Plus those masks attacks was dodged by fodders and they were destroyed by fodders so...!

The funny thing is if it was Guy in Tsunade's place then doton domo would magically be not an issue when all he has is physical attacks  

Right Ryuzaki?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Your entire fandom is baseless.
> 
> You'd make a much better Itachi fan.



This problem when you first started posting.  

All the good Battledome fandoms are taken.... they all have big names, and you can't break in.  You can join, sure, but you're just another voice in the crowd.  Heck, even Bonly has Katsuya.

How do you think I ended up team Ino?  By her being dah best, that's how.  :inovilla


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The idea comes from the fact that the slug's very introduction into the series was being the first offensive option Tsunade went with after she relinquished the only thing restricting her from summoning in the first place (fear of blood), and Orochimaru/Kabuto immediately opting to hastily summon Manda in response once they realized what Tsunade was up to. There's also the databook stating that Katsuyu fights on equal footing with Gamabunta and Manda and eventually threatening Orochimaru with her acid again, while we're at it.
> 
> The *real question ought to be where the heck the notion that she's somehow not a combat-summon* and has no business on the battlefield outside of helping Tsunade heal came from, but Ryuzaki will be Ryuzaki I guess.


As I mentioned, outside of the clear slug > snake superiority, there hasn't been an instant where it was used offensively at all. It's an excellent support summon but it's not going to be the game ender most Tsunade fans want it to be (e.g. take on four different opponents at the same time) when Tsunade herself couldn't be compelled to summon her against five Susano'os using essentially being restricted to taijutsu.

Essentially, Part II Katsuyu has been only there for support, never once used in a situation to fight against the enemy.


mylastduchess said:


> Where is this legendary feat that dolton domo has produced? What was the strongest jutsu it tanked anyway? Plus those masks attacks was dodged by fodders and they were destroyed by fodders so...!
> 
> The funny thing is if it was Guy in Tsunade's place then doton domo would magically be not an issue when all he has is physical attacks
> 
> Right Ryuzaki?


Kakashi is all of sudden fodder?  

He couldn't dodge the Katon/Fuuton combination because of it's wide-blast radius so he was forced to use a water wall to slow it down and only managed to survive the original fuuton attack due in part to the sharingan's precog. They couldn't even react in time to put a barrier and Kakashi had jump into block Gian with a Double Raikiri. The only thing Ino/Shika/Chou were able to dodge was the katon blast, everything else was clearly depicted too fast for them. 

Gated Gai, sure, he's got the speed, strength and stamina to do win against Kakuzu. But not Tsunade, she's too slow but has the strength win if she can hit him enough. I don't see that happening, her lack of ninjutsu (in general, overall versatility) is really what I have against her, if she had shown some elemental ninjutsu, it would be easy to give her the full push, but not like this.

All she really amounts to is a great taijutsu with average speed and exceptional healing abilities. The latter she takes advantage of, so when it comes to combat, her whole style is predicated on taking the enemy attack head, regardless of the consequences.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> As I mentioned, outside of the clear slug > snake superiority, there hasn't been an instant where it was used offensively at all.



The thing is that _there doesn't need to be_, especially since Tsunade's only fought one other time.

Manda wasn't used offensively more than once before he died.

Tsunade (wisely) decided to spend her Chakra using her outrageous strength and ultimate regeneration technique instead of summoning giant slugs in that situation, but that's a specific type of enemy and different circumstances call for different approaches.

It is possible for Katsuyu to afford Tsunade fighting advantages against other opponents that she wouldn't have against the clones.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The thing is that _there doesn't need to be_, especially since Tsunade's only fought one other time.
> 
> Manda wasn't used offensively more than once before he died.
> 
> ...


Wisely? If you guys believe what you are selling about Katsuyu, then she should have been summoned immediately given her durable nature, her acid and her numbers. There are number of things I didn't understand about Tsunade decisions in her fight against Madara. If she had summoned Katsuyu (even a small percentage) and her split into mini version (same one attached to Naruto when fighting Pain) attached to each kage, it would have given her the ability to fight and heal them at the same time. But for whatever reason, none of these things happened, so I can't hold either in high regard.

Yeah but even so Manda was able to utilize jutsu and fought in 2 vs. 1 scenario. He had a much more uphill battle, plus we have Manda II's feats that we can extrapolate from. We can't say the same for Katsuyu.

In certain situations, yes Katsuyu would provide an advantage but against Kakuzu, it is essentially 5 vs. 1 reminiscent of 5 Susano'os vs. Madara with the difference that they are weaker but have an aerial advantage here and I don't see her using Katsuyu for the very same reason she didn't them against the Susano'o clones.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Wisely?



Yes, wisely.

I could list a number of fighting tactics Tsunade could use Katsuyu for, but none of them suffice against those clones in particular.

Katsuyu can't body-slam her way through Susano'o, her acid-sprays wouldn't melt through it, she can't be used to overload the clones' circulatory systems with Shosen because Susano'o prevents the slug making contact with them, none of her clones could blindside them since those Susano'o protect the user from each direction at once (meaning her numbers hardly matter), etc.

The slugs can't harm them, and saying that Tsunade should have relied on Katsuyu's durability to defend her from the attacks of the Susano'o ignores her conversation with Ay where stamina came up. Tsunade was right that they shouldn't be trying to conserve energy because those clones are being powered by an Edo Tensei and thus wouldn't get tired. 

Better to spend your energy on your most destructive offense, which in Tsunade's case is her monstrous strength, for whatever chance there might be to break through their defenses.

There's also the issue of Preta Path, which the clones could use.



> If she had summoned Katsuyu (even a small percentage) and her split into mini version (same one attached to Naruto when fighting Pain) attached to each kage, it would have given her the ability to fight and heal them at the same time.



She healed them herself, then they started attacking together, so...



> Yeah but even so Manda was able to utilize jutsu and fought in 2 vs. 1 scenario. He had a much more uphill battle, plus we have Manda II's feats that we can extrapolate from.



I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Manda 2 is far superior in terms of literally everything, so what it can do doesn't have much of anything to do with the original.



> In certain situations, yes Katsuyu would provide an advantage but against Kakuzu, it is essentially 5 vs. 1 reminiscent of 5 Susano'os vs. Madara with the difference that they are weaker but have an aerial advantage here and I don't see her using Katsuyu for the very same reason she didn't them against the Susano'o clones.



The reasons I think she refrained from using Katsuyu against Madara don't apply to Kakuzu, but I'm less concerned about that than the general idea that Katsuyu's not a powerful offensive card.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, Danzo was primarily a wind-based ninjutsu user, it was his innate element, much in the very same respect to each of the hearts that Kakuzu had stacked up. I don't see how that makes him any less impressive on his own account, basically barring higher variants of Susano'o, Domu has been rated as the next best defensive jutsu.



Kakuzu absorbed the hearts of a bunch of fodder. How does that make his elemental ninjutsu as impressive as Danzou's? And anyway, Kakuzu's Domu was never rated as the next most impressive defensive jutsu .. Kishimoto never made that comparison. I think you made that up.



> Since the author stated it and made a point about it, when they were engaging in the fight, it's safe to say that he meant it literally.



He never made a point about it being as hard as diamond. All Kakuzu said was that all physical attacks were ineffective against him. Yet the only physical attacks that hit him were Chouji's Human Boulder and an explosive tag. It's akin to Ei claiming to be the fastest shinobi, before being out-sped by Minato and then Naruto. Or the claim that a Mangekyou sharingan could be only be defeated by another Mangekyou, before Sasuke overcame it with just his three tomoe. Or that a Sannin could only be defeated by another Sannin, before they all got defeated by other opponents etc etc. 

Kishimoto often says things and then takes them back later when something more impressive comes along. 



> The defense itself states that it negates all physical attacks. The point of comparison is to diamond, which in a nutshell is one the toughest naturally occurring element. So much so, that it's comparison to it, establishes it's strength and toughness.



Just like immortality infers immunity to death. Its a comparison made to suggest how strong it is, and like with much of the rest of the databook, it doesn't have to be taken literally.



> You are welcome to disagree all you want.



I think you're the only person who actually believes that Kakuzu's Domu is that strong, but I'm not going to keep arguing with you if you can't see the stupidity behind the argument. 



> But in all likelihood, given Kakuzu's a mid range performer, speed advantage and the fact that she has to keep track of multiple targets, she's not bridging any speed gaps (however large or small you may claim them to be).



The speed gap is what it is, I'm not so much claiming its small as I am pointing out what Kishimoto wrote explicitly in the databook stats. There's a .5 gap, its negligible with Tsunade's higher taijutsu stat. Hundreds of thousands of Katsuyu deal with four masks just fine, leaving Kakuzu and his wires to stupidly challenge Tsunade to a game of CQC.



> As for the part in bold, Kakuzu not even sensing Kakashi's approach negates that possibility. In essence this is a situation where someone didn't hear the sound of the bullet that killed him.



Kakuzu is a ninja, so I'd like to think that he could sneak up on an unsuspecting opponent without them hearing him. Kakashi wasn't trying to sense or smell Kakuzu either, which is why he got caught.



> Katsuyu is not an offensive-based summon, I'm not sure where this retarded idea came from, aside from her obvious advantage over snakes, there was really nothing else that warrants her on the battlefield outside amplifying Tsunade's healing reach.



She spits acid and has the potential to inflict damage, so she's obviously capable of putting up an offence. If you're not capable of comprehending that then .. I can't help you I'm afraid. .



> Furthermore, even against 5 vs. 1, Susano'os, Tsunade never summoned Katsuyu when in fact she could have used that so called durability to defend herself from the strikes. It's obvious that your blatantly hyping her up for no reason but the mere fact that she was left out of the battle until the very end speaks volumes to her lack of usefulness in actual combat.



Whenever she used Byakugou, Tsunade could surprise Madara by faking dead or injured, and then retaliate unexpectedly to inflict damage. Summoning Katsuyu to protect her _might_ have spared her getting wounded, but it never would've been successful in allowing her to damage him. Also, swords cut through Katsuyu like butter, so in actuality she probably couldn't have protected Tsunade very well.

She wasn't useful against Madara in combat. But you're naive if you think that automatically makes her useless against the infinitely weaker Kakuzu.



> Yeah, you're assuming that Tsunade would summon Katsuyu right off the bat, she's not Jiraiya whose IC move is to summon something, so that wouldn't happen. And the biggest difference here is even though, Kakuzu does fire the wires but has the numbers advantage



As soon as she got over her blood phobia, her first IC move against Orochimaru was to summon Katsuyu. And Katsuyu's first IC move was to spit acid. Regardless, Kakuzu doesn't ICly release all four of his masks from his body at the beginning of the match, so Tsunade won't need to have Katsuyu out immediately anyway.

And again, a few 100,000 is a bigger number than 4, so Kakuzu does not have a numbers advantage  



> and has a unique enough physiology and durability/strength to parry the hit to some degree.



His physical strength is laughable compared to hers, so he isn't parrying shit when she reels him in and smashes his face in. 



> Yeah, I don't give enough of a fuck to go through your post history in the recent months. It's obvious you're about the same, given the lengths you would go to defend your favorite character. As I said, I would probably do the same, as well, so I don't hold it against you.





> But if you want recent posts, check the one of the more recent Deidara vs. Tsunade threads, back in May, that was when I became active again, I'm sure you'll find something of use there.[/FONT]





> You're beating around the bush, I've already proved Kakuzu's base durability and strength in the thread before our discussion, you're welcome to look at it.



> Doesn't give enough of a fuck about my posts to legitimise his retarded generalisation 
> Expects me to search through his posts to legitimise his argument instead

Nah, I'm good bro. Kakuzu doesn't have the durability to take a thrown rasenshuriken from Sage Mode Naruto and not get vaporised. There are no feats in the manga or databook to say he could, and I'm certain none of your posts in this thread suggest that he could. Staying in tact after being hit by the weaker version is not impressive.
​​


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakuzu absorbed the hearts of a bunch of fodder. How does that make his elemental ninjutsu as impressive as Danzou's?


Some of his hearts are likely to be taken from previous Akatsuki partners. 





> [Coldblooded Murderous Intent]
> Up until he could obtain his Undying sidekick, Kakuzu butchered every  single partner he ever had, *gouging out their hearts*... That fact  demonstrates Kakuzu's boiling anger, concealed behind a mask of  composure...


 Regardless, Kakuzu takes their affinity to use alongside his own ninjutsu skills. His Raiton required Kakashi's own best Raiton to counter. And Kakashi with Raitons is as good(if not better) as Danzo with Futons. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yet the only physical attacks that hit him were Chouji's Human Boulder and an explosive tag.


Kakuzu was hit by Biju Mode Yugito. And later fought her off panel. No damage. Moreover Shikaku specifically ordered to combat Kakuzu using Darui's Raiton ninjutsu. Even though Butterfly Choji(a physical powerhouse) was around.

Just sayan


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 26, 2015)

He isn't beating Gaara.

He beats Hiruzen, Mei, and that maybe it. 
The 4th Kaze should win with high difficulty
Tsunade beats him.


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## Atlantic Storm (Aug 26, 2015)

At 20 metres, Kakuzu has a good shot at defeating Gaara, provided he knows to use the raiton mask as his main offence against him.


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## Bonly (Aug 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Moreover Shikaku specifically ordered to combat Kakuzu using Darui's Raiton ninjutsu. Even though Butterfly Choji(a physical powerhouse) was around.
> 
> Just sayan



Actually Shikaku gave that order in chapter 530 while Choji didn't go BM until the end of chapter 533. So the great physical powerhouse BM Choji wasn't around when Shikaku gave the order though all we do know is that after Choji went BM, at some point in time he ended up stepping on Kakuzu, pinning him down


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Actually Shikaku gave that order in chapter 530 while Choji didn't go BM until the end of chapter 533. So the great physical powerhouse BM Choji wasn't around when Shikaku gave the order though all we do know is that after Choji went BM, at some point in time he ended up stepping on Kakuzu, pinning him down


My memory is playing tricks on me. Good one.
I might actually need to have you eliminated.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Some of his hearts are likely to be taken from previous Akatsuki partners.



True, but all ninja have elemental affinities, being part of Akatsuki doesn't mean they were especially talented with elemental ninjutsu. Likewise, being part of Akatsuki doesn't mean they were incredibly strong either. As an example, Karin had an affinity in Water or Earth Release, but had no outstanding skill at using elemental ninjutsu. She wasn't that strong either.



> Regardless, Kakuzu takes their affinity to use alongside his own ninjutsu skills. His Raiton required Kakashi's own best Raiton to counter. And Kakashi with Raitons is as good(if not better) as Danzo with Futons.



The Raikiri, or Lightning Cutter, is named very literally. Kakashi used it because it was an especially useful technique for cutting through electricity. That doesn't make the Raiton: Gian as powerful as the Raikiri, though. Although the rank of a technique technically only dictates the difficulty of learning it, rather than its power, its still very common in the manga for higher ranked techniques to be more dangerous than lower ranked ones .. and Raikiri is an S-Rank technique used by a master of Raiton, while Gian is a B Ranked one used by someone below Kakashi in skill.



> Kakuzu was hit by Biju Mode Yugito. And later fought her off panel.



Bijuu Mode Yugito's strike still isn't nearly as powerful as one of Tsunade's, and it never hit Kakuzu directly either. He defeated her quite easily off panel it seems, because his cloak was still in tact, and Hidan didn't even have a scratch on him.



> Moreover Shikaku specifically ordered to combat Kakuzu using Darui's Raiton ninjutsu. Even though Butterfly Choji(a physical powerhouse) was around.



I'm pretty sure he gave that order before Chouji pulled Butterfly Mode out. And in the end, it was Chouji who defeated Kakuzu, not Darui.
​​


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> True, but all ninja have elemental affinities, being part of Akatsuki doesn't mean they were especially talented with elemental ninjutsu. Likewise, being part of Akatsuki doesn't mean they were incredibly strong either. As an example, Karin had an affinity in Water or Earth Release, but had no outstanding skill at using elemental ninjutsu. She wasn't that strong either.


 And my point is that individual's skill/talent is irrelevant. Kakuzu only uses them hearts as chakra converters. Other manipulation is tied to Kakuzu's own skills/abilities. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> The Raikiri, or Lightning Cutter, is named very literally. Kakashi used it because it was an especially useful technique for cutting through electricity. That doesn't make the Raiton: Gian as powerful as the Raikiri, though. Although the rank of a technique technically only dictates the difficulty of learning it, rather than its power, its still very common in the manga for higher ranked techniques to be more dangerous than lower ranked ones .. and Raikiri is an S-Rank technique used by a master of Raiton, while Gian is a B Ranked one used by someone below Kakashi in skill.


 Kakashi used his best Raiton tech(and advanced variant actually - with two hands) and still got his palms damaged. Which speak volumes about Gian's power. As for Ranks - Shunshin is D-Rank. 8-Gated Evening Elephant is A-Rank. Kisame's Daikodan is A-Rank. As I much as I like Kakashi - I don't want to pit Raikiri against Raikage's Shunshin or those other techs. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Bijuu Mode Yugito's strike still isn't nearly as powerful as one of Tsunade's, and it never hit Kakuzu directly either. He defeated her quite easily off panel it seems, because his cloak was still in tact, and Hidan didn't even have a scratch on him.


This looks pretty direct to me. My Yugito's point was about Domu being used against more stuff than those two moves you listed. Tsunade's punches are obviously more powerful but Kakuzu coming out unscathed after fighting a _biju_ is a great feat by itself. 



Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm pretty sure he gave that order before Chouji pulled Butterfly Mode out. And in the end, it was Chouji who defeated Kakuzu, not Darui.


 Bonly's shunshin is better than yours. And we don't know how exactly Kakuzu was immobilized. Darui and Izumo/Kotetsu were right near him so it is quite possible that Kakuzu was preoccupied when Choji hit him.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 26, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And my point is that individual's skill/talent is irrelevant. Kakuzu only uses them hearts as chakra converters. Other manipulation is tied to Kakuzu's own skills/abilities.



I agree with you then. Its just that Ryuzaki was arguing that because Kakuzu's hearts are stolen from other people, that he therefore is able to match Danzou's fuuton prowess. I was disagreeing with that statement, and of Kakuzu being as talented as Danzou with elemental ninjutsu in general.



> Kakashi used his best Raiton tech(and advanced variant actually - with two hands) and still got his palms damaged. Which speak volumes about Gian's power.



I think you're generalising too much though. Gian was a _two pronged_ attack aimed at two separate opponents, it wasn't one big blast. Kakashi could have used the most powerful piercing attack in the entire verse, but unless it was able to cancel both bolts at once, it wouldn't have saved both Shikamaru and Chouji.



> As for Ranks - Shunshin is D-Rank. 8-Gated Evening Elephant is A-Rank. Kisame's Daikodan is A-Rank. As I much as I like Kakashi - I don't want to pit Raikiri against Raikage's Shunshin or those other techs.



Yeah, "a novice with a pebble can defeat a veteran with a shuriken", I know that. But Kakashi possesses more powerful elemental ninjutsu than Kakuzu does, and is generally a more advanced user of them than Kakuzu is. So in this case, a more powerful elemental ninjutsu user is using a more powerful technique .. so Kakuzu's attack couldn't possibly match it in strength.



> This looks pretty direct to me.



He caught its paw and then got pushed into the ground under its weight. A direct blow would be if it smacked him and he didn't defend himself first.



> My Yugito's point was about Domu being used against more stuff than those two moves you listed. Tsunade's punches are obviously more powerful but Kakuzu coming out unscathed after fighting a _biju_ is a great feat by itself.



Fair enough.



> Bonly's shunshin is better than yours.



He's only a 0.5 ahead of me in the databook. My other stats are better. 



> And we don't know how exactly Kakuzu was immobilized. Darui and Izumo/Kotetsu were right near him so it is quite possible that Kakuzu was preoccupied when Choji hit him.



True, but either way, enough physical strength is obviously still a danger to him.​​


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> *Distance:* 20 meters
> *Location:* Kakashi vs. Kakuzu
> *Mindset:* To Kill
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> ...



beat hiruzen 
and Mei that's it 

Everyone else should beat him. Onoki or Muu shit on him with no effort


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2015)

As for tsunade vs kakuzu
while I don't think 1 punch would do it 
please note that once she realizes that, all she need to is scramble his nerves then keep hitting him till he breaks
it doesn't matter how hard a defence is, if u keep hitting it with something that wont break on impact with the defence(i.e. tsunade chakra infused fist), said defence will eventually break 

the masks cant really help kakuzu in a situation where she crambles his nerves because, attacking her when she is untop of him punching him to the ground would also mean harming kakuzu equally 

and susanoo as a defence is certainly above domu. because unlike domu it has no elemental weakness.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> My apologies, Shikamaru was the one that made the assessment about it being as tough as steel which Kishimoto later expanded on via his databooks as being on the same level as diamond.



Obviously we will never agree that Domu is as hard as diamond - you take hyperboles at face value, and I don't. So its a pointless discussion. Shikamaru's statement might be a more reliable comparison, but even steel can't withstand the might of Tsunade's strength. We saw that when she punched a hole through Madara's armour.



> So your rebuttal is the author is inconsistent with his story-telling? But you have no problem using examples to support your argument, from said author?



The author is obviously inconsistent, anyone with half a brain cell can see that, and he even admitted to being inconsistent himself. But debates like this are often about being able to tell when he's being inconsistent, and when he's not. 



> The point of comparison, within the databook was enough to establish the strength of the jutsu, you're just beating around a semantic bush. *If it's not exactly as durable as diamond, it's hard to tell the difference*.



On what basis? It was compared to steel in hardness by Shikamaru, and its feats aren't that impressive. There is literally nothing to suggest it is as hard as diamond, apart from a hyperbolic statement in the databook. 



> We had a thread about this a month ago, not the only, actually quite a few agree with me.



There seem to be quite a few idiots making up the minority, then.



> The point in bold is bullshit considering she'll never get that close to him, she physically cannot keep up with him. If she gets in close, then I agree, her taijutsu prowess makes a world of difference but at 15-20m apart, she doesn't stand a chance, regardless of how broken her taijutsu is, if she cannot catch her opponent, she's not hitting him.



So then what are you even trying to argue? A while ago you were arguing that Kakuzu was going to run up and blitz her if she got into close quarters:



> Kakuzu likely cuts her in half and leaves her for dead, just like Madara.



but now you're saying neither Kakuzu nor Tsunade will even engage in close combat. This is despite the fact that Kakuzu is largely a close range fighter, and ICly fights every opponent either at close range, or by binding them in wires at mid-range. Either way, that means Tsunade is landing hits on him. Kakuzu isn't going to spend the match running away from Tsunade, so she's obviously going to break into close range.

And 0.5 speed advantages mean precious little. See Sakura vs Ino, or Chiyo vs Sasori, as examples. There were even larger speed gaps in those fights, but one side managed to keep up with their opponent for the most part. Tsunade kept pace with Base Ei, intercepted Manda mid-bite and leapt/shunshin'd a ridiculous distance in the same space of time that a V2 Ei could use a Raigyaku Suihei. Kakuzu might edge out over her in speed, but not nearly enough whenever she can keep pace with Ei and Manda, two notoriously fast fighters.



> Chouji attempted a blindside attack on Kakuzu at near point-blank range while Kakuzu was backed into a corner by Shikamaru. Yet, Kakuzu was able to react immediately to it. I don't see why Kakuzu wouldn't have his guard up, considering each time he has faced Konoha, it consisted of a group of more than just 1 shinobi.



Chouji turned into a giant spiky ball that span around in mid-air - it obviously made noise, and alerted Hidan's attention enough for him to look up in awe (Hidan being directly in front of Kakuzu). Kakuzu was intuitive enough to know something was coming his way from those indications. Furthermore, Kakuzu was being forced onto the defence by Shikamaru, so he was already alert and on his toes. Kakashi thought he had killed Kakuzu, and no one else saw Kakuzu coming, so he had literally no reason to be on his guard or to prepare himself. They are two different situations with different contexts. 



> Acid is pretty much featless bro, Manda was able to avoid the jutsu don't see the masks or Kakuzu having any trouble with avoiding it all. Katsuyu is not an offensive factor in this fight, best she can do is be Tsunade's eyes/ears.



Hundreds of thousands of slugs spitting acid in different directions isn't a threat to a few masks that even Tenten was able to contend with? Okay then.



> Restricting Madara's Susano'o clones to taijutsu alone and you think Kakuzu's hearts are useless? All four released hearts of Kakuzu are much more effective in damaging Tsunade and unlike the Susano'o, they can stay out her fighting range.



Kakuzu's hearts can be damaged much more easily. Either with playing dead Byakugou tactics, or with hundreds of thousands of Katsuyu divisions. Kakuzu's masks can stay out of her range, but they are slower (there's no way a Kakuzu mask could have ambushed V2 Ei) and the damage they inflict isn't nearly as critical as giant swords pierced through Tsunade's abdomen. 



> Katsuyu's still useless on the battlefield, if Manda was able to avoid it, I'm sure these guys will be able to as well. The masks still have the flight advantage, wider attack radius and Kakuzu has Domu to fall back on, don't see how Katsuyu is an automatic offensive force, you claim it to be.



Manda is infinitely faster than Kakuzu's masks, whose only speed feat is .. what .. dodging Multi-Sized Chouji? A giant acid blast could certainly melt some of them, but hundreds of thousands of clones spraying acid in several different directions is more likely to bring their defeat, than one big Katsuyu doing so.



> Tsunade would have to tangle with the masks and Kakuzu and Kakashi, who clearly outclasses her, even with the sharingan wasn't able to do it indefinitely either



Kakashi didn't have several hundred thousand acid spitting slugs to contend with Kakuzu's masks, or incredible regeneration and resilience to shrug Kakuzu's damage off. 



> as he was picked off by Kakuzu.



If Kakuzu does that to Tsunade, he's a dead man. She grabs his tendrils an reels him in. 



> The same thing will happen to Tsunade and unlike Kakashi, she doesn't have the elemental ninjutsu prowess to hide behind. She'll have to heal after each attack and the more attacks she takes the longer the healing process will be.



> Kakuzu's Fuuton inflicted shit all damage to Kakashi and Hidan, and amounted to nothing bar damaging a few hollowed out trees
> Kakuzu's Katon was evaded by Ino, Chouji and Shikamaru, who are much slower than Tsunade
> Kakuzu's Raiton is pretty featless - but Shikamaru had enough to time to pull out a scroll and open it. So Tsunade, who is faster and possesses better movements,  should have no problem ducking out of the way

So really, the only threat Tsunade faces is Kakuzu's Fuuton-Katon combo, but she will regenerate from that, and won't be pelted by it continuously either because Katsuyu will be somewhere nearby spraying those masks from multiple different directions. That's also assuming, of course, Kakuzu hasn't already been reeled into CQC via his tendrils and had his own heart smashed.



> She'd end up losing due to Gian chopping her.



Gian is featless. Tsunade ducks and dodges that shit, or tanks it and then regenerates like she did Yasaka Magatama and Mabui's Lightning Transfer.



> I'm sure the 2-Tails disagrees with you.



So now you're actually arguing that Kakuzu's physical strength is enough to parry _Tsunade's_? Even though Matatabi _smashed him into the earth_?

I'm done. ​​


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## Grimsley (Sep 1, 2015)

<snip>

We actually already had this debate and him and the rest of the Kakuzu wankers got their ass dragged for filth  so I guess he's bitter because his precious Kakuzu actually loses to a female character.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 1, 2015)

Keep the debate civil, please.


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## Yoko (Sep 1, 2015)

He can beat Gaara (outside of the desert / good sand grinding area), Tsunade, Mei, Rasa, and potentially Hiruzen.  

Without a desert, Gaara simply cannot shift enough sand to protect himself from the onslaught of elemental spam, and even if he somehow manages, Raiton: Gian will pierce through his defenses.  Rasa is pretty much a copy-paste scenario, unless we assume gold will fare significantly better than sand does against Raiton.

Tsunade is too slow to hit him; she will get hit by elemental cannons from all directions.  She isn't going to be consistently dodging attacks that the much faster and Sharingan-equipped Kakashi wasn't able to dodge, and while Byakugo will keep her in the game for a while, the amount of chakra she will expend to heal from the likes of Raiton: Gian (which will be punching holes in her / cutting her) will eventually be her downfall.

Mei has impressive offense but lacks the speed and reflexes to consistently dodge tendril grabs combined with elemental cannons from all directions.  Like Kakashi, she eventually gets swarmed by hearts, blasted by elemental cannons and grabbed by Jiongu.

Hiruzen is iffy, as it depends on how his stamina fares by Part II standards.  If he can make four Kage Bunshin and actually maintain them for long enough to fight off the hearts, he can win.  He is essentially a better version of Kakuzu since he can make clones that are capable of using all five elements rather than restricted to just one element per heart like Kakuzu, allowing him to leverage elemental advantages.  Only problem for him is chakra levels.

Overall, I feel Kakuzu is heavily underestimated.  The Kakuzu in-manga was disadvantaged as he lost Domu from the get-go and had a heart destroyed by Shikimaru.  Despite this, he still managed to overwhelm Kakashi with the hearts he had left, and Kakashi has impressive speed / reflexes, above any of the fighters in this thread bar Raikage.  Nobody is casually dodging his elemental spam if a speedy Sharingan user wasn't able to.


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## t0xeus (Sep 1, 2015)

He beats Mei and maybe Rasa.


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

people underestimate rasa a lot though 
gaara beat him due to PIS
the guy was stopping shukaku who by all accounts has more sand than gaara and by abit 

for me rasa= gaara 

and kakuzu would beat either in any case


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## Nikushimi (Sep 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> [*]Hiruzen (old)



It's a draw with Shiki Fujin, unless Hiruzen can't manage to seal him completely (like Orochimaru). Outside of that one Jutsu and his raw experience and skill, Hiruzen doesn't have a prayer.



> [*]Tsunade



Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu can possibly bypass Domu. Her regeneration and Katsuyu's assistance make this a likely win via attrition, if all else fails.



> [*]Rasa



Rasa can't really do jack shit. Sure, he subdued Shukaku, but Kakuzu's not such a big, slow, or otherwise easy target; he's more capable of dodging and countering with elemental Ninjutsu. Rasa's defense may be hard to penetrate, but his offense is pitifully inadequate for this match. With 5 hearts and 5 chakra strains to switch between, I'd put my money on Kakuzu in a battle of stamina, versus the guy who has to move around large volumes of a substance 10x heavier than Gaara's sand.



> [*]Gaara



Gaara seals Kakuzu in a sand pyramid.



> [*]Oonoki



Oonoki dusts Kakuzu with Jinton.



> [*]Muu



Ditto Oonoki.



> [*]Raikagernaut (3rd)



The 3rd Raikage overpowers and spears Kakuzu. Summarily.



> [*]4th A



Kakuzu dies before he can blink.



> [*]Trollkage



Could be a long standoff, but Gengetsu ultimately doesn't really have to do anything to win except wait for Kakuzu to exhaust himself fighting a mirage.



> [*]Mei



Kakuzu overwhelms Mei in an exchange of firepower and then overwhelms her physically for the takedown.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 5, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Rasa can't really do jack shit. Sure, he subdued Shukaku, but Kakuzu's not such a big, slow, or otherwise easy target; he's more capable of dodging and countering with elemental Ninjutsu. Rasa's defense may be hard to penetrate, but his offense is pitifully inadequate for this match. With 5 hearts and 5 chakra strains to switch between, I'd put my money on Kakuzu in a battle of stamina, versus the guy who has to move around large volumes of a substance 10x heavier than Gaara's sand.


Subduing the Shukaku is like nothing for Kakuzu, he fought the 2-Tails barehanded. You know, I'm beginning to think the bijuus are all just hype with nothing really to show for it. At least the 1/2/3 Tails.



Icegaze said:


> people underestimate rasa a lot though
> gaara beat him due to PIS
> the guy was stopping shukaku who by all accounts has more sand than gaara and by abit
> 
> ...



But Rasa lost to Gaara, how can they be equals?


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Hiruzen (old) - Kakuzu hard-diff.
Tsunade - Tsunade mid-hard diff.
Rasa - Kakuzu wins low-diff.
Gaara - Kakuzu wins hard-diff.
Oonoki - Onoki disintegrates him.
Muu - Muu disintegrates him.
Raikagernaut (3rd) - The Third slaughters him.
4th A - The Fourth slaughters him.
Trollkage - Gengetsu wins high-diff.
Mei - Mei hard-diff.


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

Rasa lost due to PIS
kaguya also lost to team 7 is the implication that they are stronger than her ?


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Rasa lost due to PIS
> kaguya also lost to team 7 is the implication that they are stronger than her ?



Yes - Team 7 (Rikudou Naruto, Rikudou Sasuke, Rikudou DMS Kakashi and Byakugou Sakura) is > Kaguya. That is a manga fact.

And Rasa lost due to him being weaker.


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## Kinjishi (Sep 6, 2015)

Because I'm too lazy to elaborate, Kakuzu defeats the following -- Hiruzen, Tsunade, Rasa, Gaara, and Mei. Ōnoki is iffy, he might be too old for a one-on-one. Barring a long-range Jinton, if Ōnoki tries anything else he may end up dead. Kakuzu is most certainly swift enough to interrupt his casting if Ōnoki attempts anything at close range. It's 50/50 depending on Ōnoki's tactics. Mū and Ē (3rd) are terribly unbalanced, though Ē will have a more difficult time because of his brute force approach. Ē (4th) I'll grant the benefit of the doubt; however, his bullish nature could get him killed without proper precaution and knowledge. If Kakuzu decides to play possum after the 4th believes he's won, things could get nasty. But because Kakuzu needs to score a one-hit KO or permanently disable the Raikage with a surprise attack, if he misses this small opportunity then Ē will punish him for it. Lastly, Kakuzu beats Gengetsu. His five hearts will outlast the clam, and the size, scale and power of his offense will compensate for his inability to locate it. And because Gangetsu's offense is poor against Kakuzu (Doton>Suiton), the former will have too much difficulty landing a meaningful blow.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2015)

Gaara's dad dies.


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