# How strong are Kinkaku & Ginkaku?



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2017)

If Kinkaku & Ginkaku were to get serious and immediately go V2, and fight using all five of the Six Paths' treasured tools in combat against every opponent they faced. How strong would the brothers really be and who is the strongest they could ultimately defeat?


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2017)

I think it's kinda hard to draw any conclusion based on what we have seen from them tbh. I guess we can only go with their hype
like defeating AA & Tobirama and whatnot.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Android (Apr 1, 2017)

Didn't the DB say they were stronger than the 5 kages ???


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## Bonly (Apr 1, 2017)

They'd prolly be High Kage lvl. The tools made them stronger then the Gokage and the amber pot is haxed as fuck since the enemy just needs to respond in order to be sealed and no knowledge is pretty much an instant win along with the other tools. We saw Kinkaku pretty much wreck a division by himself for a while until they used his pot against him so two of them would be dangerous. Then add in what other jutsu they've learned along with them being able to beat two Kage at once and I can see them as High Kage lvl.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Apr 1, 2017)

V2 Kinkaku&Ginkaku with Rikudou tools are stronger than the Gokage.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> V2 Kinkaku&Ginkaku with Rikudou tools are stronger than the Gokage.



2nd Generation of Gokage to be exact. 
Because it does not make much sense to say "Gokage" as in every/any generation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zexion~ (Apr 1, 2017)

Not very as they can only use one tool at a time and its not very hard to not-allow them to use it for anyone who has high scale jutsu. 

They're main asset is a V2 shroud lol that's about it.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2017)

Impossible that they're stronger than the Gokage.

The Gokage contain Tsunade, one of the Legendary Sannin. That automatically puts them at god tier, no questions asked. Stop underrating the Sannin title.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Impossible that they're stronger than the Gokage.
> 
> The Gokage contain Tsunade, one of the Legendary Sannin. That automatically puts them at god tier, no questions asked. Stop underrating the Sannin title.


Tsunade was not a Hokage when they were around. The Gokage that they are stronger than them are

Tobirama, AA, Gengetsu, Mu, and the 2nd Kazekage.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Clowe (Apr 1, 2017)

Strong enough to defeat Tobirama.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Apr 1, 2017)

Clowe said:


> Strong enough to defeat Tobirama.


Shhhh ...
Trying to start a crapstorm m8 ?


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2017)

Gin & Kin defeated Tobirama whose one of the strongest Kages, and they were considered stronger than the Gokage according to DBIV. Considering this there aren't many characters outside of God-Tiers that are likely capable of defeating Gin & Kin, 1v2. 

Gin & Kin are simply some of the most underrated characters on the NBD forms, due to their performance in the War-Arc. But their performance in the War arc is really not as bad as people make it seems. They were up against a character that would eventually become the next Raikage, with everything stacked against them possible, and missing part of their own power that was used against them (Amber-Sealing Jar). Most characters outside of God-Tiers would loose in the same situation as Gin/Kin. Plus Edos in general underperformed, see Deidara and many others for instance.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2017)

Yeah, I agree with those who view them as high Kage tier characters. I initially viewed them pretty lowly myself, but after reevaluating their hype and feats I believe they're portrayed as that powerful. Jin no Sho states that they possessed power surpassing that of the Five Kage during their time, due to the Six Paths Sacred Treasures, and when they combine the power of the treasures with the Nine-Tails' power they were capable of leaving Tobirama and A2 on the brink of death. Each of them are also noted to possess the power of a thousand men, so together they're pretty damn strong. 

The main reason they lost was because of multiple circumstances surrounding their fight against Darui and his First Division, and they were missing arguable one of the strongest of the tools. If they were to have had immediately gone V2, and had all five tools at their disposal, they would've demolished the entire division and killed everyone imho.


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2017)

Tobirama did not have FTG or the same level of hype that he had in the most recent War Arc when he was defeated by Kin/Gin. Thats clear


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## Android (Apr 2, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Tobirama did not have FTG or the same level of hype that he had in the most recent War Arc when he was defeated by Kin/Gin. Thats clear


How ? when he clearly had Hiraishin in his battle with Izuna , years before he got killed .
Or do you mean he didn't have it during that time of his life ?


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2017)

GuidingThunder said:


> How ? when he clearly had Hiraishin in his battle with Izuna , years before he got killed .
> Or do you mean he didn't have it during that time of his life ?


I mean the concept wasn't fleshed out. According to the timeline he did, but the man put his life on the line to be a decoy. Does that make sense for someone with FTG? He easily could have warped the crew away with FTG. It's a plot hole, but it sorta makes sense because Tobirama/Hashirama were retconned.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 2, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I mean the concept wasn't fleshed out. According to the timeline he did, but the man put his life on the line to be a decoy. Does that make sense for someone with FTG? He easily could have warped the crew away with FTG. It's a plot hole, but it sorta makes sense because Tobirama/Hashirama were retconned.


Minato stated that Obito's Kamui was superior to Tobirama's and his own's FTG. This chapter was before Kinkaku & Ginkaku were even introduced, so him having it was taken into account by then. I agree that him not using it to warp away doesn't make any sense, but this doesn't change the fact that they still left Tobirama and A2 on the brink of death. Nor the fact that they're the ones who killed him. The fourth databook even goes out of it's way to state they were stronger than the Five Kage, and with the treasured tools and the Nine-Tails' power they did what they did to Tobirama and A2.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Apr 2, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Minato stated that Obito's Kamui was superior to Tobirama's and his own's FTG. This chapter was before Kinkaku & Ginkaku were even introduced, so him having it was taken into account by then. I agree that him not using it to warp away doesn't make any sense, but this doesn't change the fact that they still left Tobirama and A2 on the brink of death. Nor the fact that they're the ones who killed him. The fourth databook even goes out of it's way to state they were stronger than the Five Kage, and with the treasured tools and the Nine-Tails' power they did what they did to Tobirama and A2.


It's clearly a plot hole and was before Tobirama actually received his massive amounts of hype. You have to remember that Tobirama's power level changes frequently throughout the manga as well as Hashirama's. You also overlooked the fact that the illustration of Tobirama's death to the Kin/Gin squad as well as his passing of the Hokage title happened before Minato claimed Tobirama had FTG. So clearly Kishi had to stick with the story he previously created. Kishi tends to retcon aspects extremely quickly between chapters. Minato was in awe over Naruto's Senjutsu and even relied upon it despite having Senjutsu of his own. That was a retcon that happened super quick lol. So Tobirama being retconned to have FTG a few chapters after being killed by the Kin/Gin squad is no surprise and makes complete sense when considering _the way _he actually died. You don't really have to believe it, I understand that. But the retcon is clear as day to me.


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## Icelerate (Apr 3, 2017)

These two usually can't use V2 at the same time. The only time when one can use it is when they are enraged. The type of enragement that causes them to enter V2 state only occurs when the other brother is taken out of the picture generally speaking.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2017)

Veracity said:


> It's clearly a plot hole and was before Tobirama actually received his massive amounts of hype. You have to remember that Tobirama's power level changes frequently throughout the manga as well as Hashirama's. You also overlooked the fact that the illustration of Tobirama's death to the Kin/Gin squad as well as his passing of the Hokage title happened before Minato claimed Tobirama had FTG. So clearly Kishi had to stick with the story he previously created. Kishi tends to retcon aspects extremely quickly between chapters. Minato was in awe over Naruto's Senjutsu and even relied upon it despite having Senjutsu of his own. That was a retcon that happened super quick lol. So Tobirama being retconned to have FTG a few chapters after being killed by the Kin/Gin squad is no surprise and makes complete sense when considering _the way _he actually died. You don't really have to believe it, I understand that. But the retcon is clear as day to me.


But Minato did say that Tobirama had FTG, he said that Obito's Kamui is better than both "the Second's and mine", and what space-time ninjutsu does Minato primarily use aside from FTG? To me it's pretty obvious what he meant. Also, why can't Minato be shocked that Naruto learned SM despite having it himself? I don't see how that's a contradiction. I'd also argue that even with Tobirama being retconned to be much stronger than Kin & Gin are still above him, Kin & Gin in V2 cannot be harmed by Tobirama, and Kin can wave the Bashosen and generate a maelstrom of any element of his choosing. Not to mention with the other tools they can pretty much against almost anyone who isn't a God-tier with no knowledge on how the tools work. They can just call out to their opponent, have them respond, and then seal them away in the Kohaku no Johei instantly. There's also the fact that Tobirama didn't mark a bunch of shit like Minato did, so that is a plausible explanation for Tobirama not having any escape route.


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## Veracity (Apr 4, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> But Minato did say that Tobirama had FTG, he said that Obito's Kamui is better than both "the Second's and mine", and what space-time ninjutsu does Minato primarily use aside from FTG? To me it's pretty obvious what he meant. Also, why can't Minato be shocked that Naruto learned SM despite having it himself? I don't see how that's a contradiction. I'd also argue that even with Tobirama being retconned to be much stronger than Kin & Gin are still above him, Kin & Gin in V2 cannot be harmed by Tobirama, and Kin can wave the Bashosen and generate a maelstrom of any element of his choosing. Not to mention with the other tools they can pretty much against almost anyone who isn't a God-tier with no knowledge on how the tools work. They can just call out to their opponent, have them respond, and then seal them away in the Kohaku no Johei instantly. There's also the fact that Tobirama didn't mark a bunch of shit like Minato did, so that is a plausible explanation for Tobirama not having any escape route.




I know. It's clear that Minato was talking about FTG, but he made that statement *after* Tobirama was already illustrated to die to Kin/Gin. So it seems obvious that Tobirama didn't have FTG when Kishi created the concept of his death. Which makes sense. I mean really, just think about how he died. Homie created FTG and he cant just teleport his squad to safety? Either Kishi didn't scale his power to the War Arc, or Tobirama didn't have FTG. It's one of those two.

Because Minato literally needed to rely on Naruto's Senjutsu to attack JJ Obito and when his weakness was found out Minato was never stated or implied to have Senjutsu. Seems like an obvious place to state that Minato could use Senjutsu, considering it was the only effective method against a juubi jin. Obvious retcon.

If you think Kin/Gin are stronger then that's fine. But Tobirama dying to Kin/Gin squad is an obvious retcon. He didn't even have to confront them when he could have warped all his crew back to Konoha. So either he didn't have FTG, or his power was weaker in that flashback.

FTG markers don't ever disappear, so Tobirama clearly had places to teleport away to. Also, just because Minato uses marked Kunai doesn't mean that Tobirama doesn't place FTG markers across the village for protection. No correlation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 4, 2017)

Kin/Gin were stronger than Muu/Tobirama and 3 other kage's ? 


link?


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 5, 2017)

Databook references are supporting arguments at best.

If that's your leading argument you basically have no argument.

That makes Preta capable of absorbing Juubidama, Yata Mirror capable of reflecting Indra Arrow, and Kakuzu capable of tanking every attack that doesn't have a lightning affinity in the universe.

We know what they're capable of based on features and it was never close to what they were portrayed to be.

Also, footnote, Tobirama didn't have FTG when his death scenario was written and drawn. Tobirama and his brother alike have some of the worst plot holes in the manga.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 5, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I know. It's clear that Minato was talking about FTG, but he made that statement *after* Tobirama was already illustrated to die to Kin/Gin. So it seems obvious that Tobirama didn't have FTG when Kishi created the concept of his death. Which makes sense. I mean really, just think about how he died. Homie created FTG and he cant just teleport his squad to safety? Either Kishi didn't scale his power to the War Arc, or Tobirama didn't have FTG. It's one of those two.


 In all honesty Tobirama being more intelligent than Minato yet choosing to not do something as simplistic as mark everything he owns with FTG is extremely stupid too. Doesn't change the fact that he didn't bother to do it.



> Because Minato literally needed to rely on Naruto's Senjutsu to attack JJ Obito and when his weakness was found out Minato was never stated or implied to have Senjutsu. Seems like an obvious place to state that Minato could use Senjutsu, considering it was the only effective method against a juubi jin. Obvious retcon.


 Minato said that it takes too long for him to build up the natural energy to use it, and that he cannot maintain it for long. There was no need for him to bother using it when Naruto can do it much better.



> If you think Kin/Gin are stronger then that's fine. But Tobirama dying to Kin/Gin squad is an obvious retcon. He didn't even have to confront them when he could have warped all his crew back to Konoha. So either he didn't have FTG, or his power was weaker in that flashback.
> 
> FTG markers don't ever disappear, so Tobirama clearly had places to teleport away to. Also, just because Minato uses marked Kunai doesn't mean that Tobirama doesn't place FTG markers across the village for protection. No correlation.


 When was Tobirama ever stated to mark anything with his FTG? Only Minato is known for that, Tobirama only seems to mark his opponents in combat and his kunai that one time.



DaVizWiz said:


> Databook references are supporting arguments at best.
> 
> If that's your leading argument you basically have no argument.
> 
> That makes Preta capable of absorbing Juubidama, Yata Mirror capable of reflecting Indra Arrow, and Kakuzu capable of tanking every attack that doesn't have a lightning affinity in the universe.


 All of the databooks use hyperbole in reference to techniques to make them sound cooler than they actually are. But ignoring databook entries on characters is another thing entirely. They don't use hyperbole in reference to them, they're giving you additional information about them. The entire purpose of databook entries are to provide you with extra information than that of what the manga gave you.



> We know what they're capable of based on features and it was never close to what they were portrayed to be.
> 
> Also, footnote, Tobirama didn't have FTG when his death scenario was written and drawn. Tobirama and his brother alike have some of the worst plot holes in the manga.


 Hashirama certainly does yeah, but Tobirama doesn't mark anything like Minato does. It's kind of stupid that he doesn't, as that's not really that phenomenal of an idea. But it is what it is, and considering Tobirama cannot harm them at all and they have significantly larger chakra reserves especially alongside eighteen other highly skilled shinobi I don't see how them killing him is hard to imagine.


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## Veracity (Apr 6, 2017)

Isaiah13000 said:


> In all honesty Tobirama being more intelligent than Minato yet choosing to not do something as simplistic as mark everything he owns with FTG is extremely stupid too. Doesn't change the fact that he didn't bother to do it.
> 
> Minato said that it takes too long for him to build up the natural energy to use it, and that he cannot maintain it for long. There was no need for him to bother using it when Naruto can do it much better.
> 
> When was Tobirama ever stated to mark anything with his FTG? Only Minato is known for that, Tobirama only seems to mark his opponents in combat and his kunai that one time.


But there is no indication that he doesn't... so it kinda sounds like you're making stuff up. One would assume that Tobirama tagged something in the village throughout his lifetime, and if we're pegging our entire argument off of what's been blatantly stated( despite Tobirama having far less panel time and inclusion regarding FTG) then we know for a fact that Tobirama tagged someone or something throughout his lifetime; which always gives him somewhere to port him or his students of the need arises. So again, plot hole and retcon.

But still. Minato didn't even need to use Senjutsu, but it still would have stated. That would have been the perfect time for Minato to have said he couldn't use Sage Mode as greatly as Naruto himself seeing how that was Obito's only kryptonite. Especially considering how surprised he was to see that Naruto could use it. He also had enough standing around time from when the shinobi alliance was standing around till when him and Naruto attacked Obito to enter Sage Mode. Clear plot hole. 

If Tobirama had marked *anything* before forcing himself to be the decoy in that Kin/Gin situation, then he would have had somewhere to warp too. But he didn't because its huge gapping plot hole and retcon.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 6, 2017)

> All of the databooks use hyperbole in reference to techniques to make them sound cooler than they actually are. But ignoring databook entries on characters is another thing entirely. They don't use hyperbole in reference to them, they're giving you additional information about them. The entire purpose of databook entries are to provide you with extra information than that of what the manga gave you.


The databook is useful as a supporting argument. You can't lead with what the databook states, it's fan service literature it's not the actual storyline (manga).



> Hashirama certainly does yeah, but Tobirama doesn't mark anything like Minato does. It's kind of stupid that he doesn't, as that's not really that phenomenal of an idea. But it is what it is, and considering Tobirama cannot harm them at all and they have significantly larger chakra reserves especially alongside eighteen other highly skilled shinobi I don't see how them killing him is hard to imagine.


There is no chance Tobirama had nothing in the world marked when Kin/Gin were persuing his team. It's absurd to claim at the very least that he did not have his home tagged just for convienence, or his significant other/close family members (Tsunade for instance) tagged for increased safety, especially after Gin/Kin two of the world's most dangerous and savage ninja tried and nearly suceeded in assassinating him, this man was quite paranoid if we consider what he did to the Uchiha.

Tobirama having FTG is retcon, he should have had it when he was revived in Part 1, it's not a technique based on power it's entirely based on skill. If Hashirama could still produce a high level KG technique, one that every member of his clan could not learn, there's no chance Tobirama could not produce FTG.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## drew8324 (Apr 7, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> The databook is useful as a supporting argument. You can't lead with what the databook states, it's fan service literature it's not the actual storyline (manga).
> 
> There is no chance Tobirama had nothing in the world marked when Kin/Gin were persuing his team. It's absurd to claim at the very least that he did not have his home tagged just for convienence, or his significant other/close family members (Tsunade for instance) tagged for increased safety, especially after Gin/Kin two of the world's most dangerous and savage ninja tried and nearly suceeded in assassinating him, this man was quite paranoid if we consider what he did to the Uchiha.
> 
> Tobirama having FTG is retcon, he should have had it when he was revived in Part 1, it's not a technique based on power it's entirely based on skill. If Hashirama could still produce a high level KG technique, one that every member of his clan could not learn, there's no chance Tobirama could not produce FTG.



This sounds extremely logical. I'll actually use this as my own head canon this hella smart.


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## ARGUS (Apr 7, 2017)

Were they stated to be stronger than the gokage individually or as a collective force? 
If it's collectively then kishi really did a terrible job. Especially with the whole, legends are exaggerated statement


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