# Saruman vs Galadriel



## Musefreak (Nov 4, 2012)

Who do u think would win in a fight  between them when there both at there strongest.


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## Shout (Nov 4, 2012)

Only read LoTR so I can't say for certain, but I'd give it to Galadriel. She does possess a ring of power.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 4, 2012)

Shout said:


> Only read LoTR so I can't say for certain, but I'd give it to Galadriel. She does possess a ring of power.



and Saruman very well could have made his own for all we know given what he said to Gandalf "I am Saruman ring maker! Saruman of many colors!"

so that's not an indicator of power Galadriel may have been a ring barer but it's possible Saruman was a _ring maker_ (probably a weaksauce ring though)..but for feats

Galadriel learned defenses from Melian she held entropy at bay all across her domain, her mental fortitude was so legendary Sauron more or less had a personal mission to mind rape her and tried for thousands of years...so voice fucking Galadriel is completely out of the question (then again Saruman casually voice fucked the Witch King through a god damn magical intercom no less so) even if he manages it's doubtful it would resist

as for personal feats Saruman was very much a master manipulator the danger with him was what he could do if he could talk..novel wise Caradhras could have dropped rocks on them because the mountain itself _got pissed off _ or it was Sauron or the wizard of many colors..unlike the movies the primary canon leaves that vague but what we do know is the moment the dude opens his mouth unless your Gandalf you're in deep trouble..Galadriel based on her own very powerful mind and incredible resistance may be able to resist his voice

offensive feat wise she shits all over him..Sauron was convinced the only way he could take her realm down is if he directly confronted her with one ring on his finger..she personally destroyed Dul Gurdur and she was the only elf who got up in Feanors face and wasn't threatened for it

hell her birth name means "she man" or "war woman" or something if I recall a few translations- so even then in Aman in the seat of power of the lords of the west surrounded by some of the most powerful Elves to ever exist..she was renowned for being unusually ferocious for a woman (and a young one at the time) 

while I'm weary of giving Maiar victories to non Maiar in LOTR match ups Galadriel learned mental defense and mystical secrets from a very powerful Maiar who's barriers kept Sauron out..her own mental resistance feats are enough that Sauron who was a god who specialized in mind rape could not take her and would need to be at his strongest at that point to fight her directly

I think limited as he is he's up against too much raw fire power..if this was say Gandalf or Cirdan or Elrond it'd be different and she'd lose (and honestly feat wise she should be above Elrond but IIRC word of god he's stronger) but she out guns the white wizard and the one crippling advantage he has..is one she can resist

edit- one of the things I don't get is why fantasy writers and fantasy fans consider Hermoine a better female lead then Galadriel..when she is one of the most ferociously independent and noble and strong female leads in any fantasy whether its high or mid or low and all grim dark..she really was ahead of her time as a character and Tolkien did a pretty good job cementing her as someone who could not only play with the big boys but get right up in their faces and call them out no less

not knocking HP female leads..but really don't think any of them besides Minerva and maybe Molly really compare and even then they don't really..


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## mcdave (Nov 4, 2012)

> Hermoine a better female lead then Galadriel


Hermione is an Authors Avatar. Galadriel is written by a Writer who was manly influenced by Literature with outdated rolemodels. She is outclassed by the males in her own canon. Hermione on the otherhand overshines her Peers. I think thats is the Mainreason why People could fall for that.

Tactical and on Topic speaking Galadriel turtles in and gets her ass handed to her over Time if in Character and when Armys are included.

Overall if its just 1 vs 1 standard Saruman gets his Ass handed to him.


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## Luna (Nov 4, 2012)

I'd say that Galadriel takes this.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 4, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Hermione is an Authors Avatar. Galadriel is written by a Writer who was manly influenced by Literature with outdated rolemodels. She is outclassed by the males in her own canon. Hermione on the otherhand overshines her Peers. I think thats is the Mainreason why People could fall for that.



and they'd be completely wrong-she struck off on her own at a very young age, got in the face of one of the most powerful and dangerous beings alive...and openly called him out on his bullshit and _he sat there and took it_ when his brother tried the same shit he almost put a sword through his chest

she held her realm together for thousands of years creating a virtual paradise on earth and was one of the first to realize how dangerous Sauron was...she was one of the wisest rulers alive and she personally obliterated a fortress the size of Hogwartz with her own fucking hands and did so easily

she was out classed by the men in her story? If by men you mean Gandalf one of the most powerful Maiar ever..if by men you mean Fingolfin an elf so powerful his rage aura fear fucked an entire country and all its inhabitants including a bunch of demigods.. if by men you mean Glorfindale (maybe) a reincarnated super elf who word of god was comparable to a low level maiar at that point..Elrond? debatable..possibly and given the fact that the dudes fucking great grand mother was a god damn demi god..who was Galadriels sensei..that's le gasp

Cirdan? considering the guy was older than the sun and the moon..and IIRC time itself..you know wow.. he also out classed almost all other elves in Wisdom and was one of the few beings around who saw completely through the Istari and knew *exactly* what they were

know what all those "men who were superior to her" have in common? Yeah they all considered her one of the smartest leaders around and many of them sought her wisdom..





mcdave said:


> and on Topic speaking Galadriel turtles in and gets her ass handed to her over Time if in Character and when Armys are included.



just so we're clear here word of god..the only thing that could have taken her down was Sauron with the ring on at his nastiest backed up by the entire might of Mordor

so you know./.no


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## mcdave (Nov 4, 2012)

> know what all those "men who were superior to her" have in common? Yeah they all considered her one of the smartest leaders around and many of them sought her wisdom..


Well if thats the Bunch she hangs out with. Its like you say well in the First League everyone says its a Decent Team but hey in the second League they would be top.



> just so we're clear here word of god..the only thing that could have taken her down was Sauron with the ring on at his nastiest backed up by the entire might of Mordor
> 
> so you know./.no


With eternity on his Side Saruman would become a carbon copy of Sauron iam sure of it. Galadriel in character wouldnt attack probably.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 4, 2012)

mcdave said:


> *Well if thats the Bunch she hangs out with.* Its like you say well in the First League everyone says its a Decent Team but hey in the second League they would be top.]



it's the tier she's in..ever since she was young she stood out and consistently kept pace with the big dogs..she's top tier in in her universe when not counting gods and OOCP's like Luthien and Feanor 



mcdave said:


> With eternity on his Side Saruman would become a carbon copy of Sauron iam sure of it. Galadriel in character wouldnt attack probably.



Gandalf thought this

Tolkien outright says Gandalf is the only one who ever would have truly mastered the ring and surpassed Sauron- and considering Olorin exceeded Sauron in wisdom and smarts that would have been scary

the others would have been..able to hold power for some time before being undune


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## mcdave (Nov 4, 2012)

> if this was say Gandalf or Cirdan or Elrond it'd be different and she'd lose


 or Sauron.


> it's the tier she's in..ever since she was young she stood out and consistently *kept pace* with the big dogs


That you have to proof it shows me that shes not really a lead in her Tier. You are too defensive. Hermione is a terrible Character if you take Harry out of the equation just think of it. The plot hides it very well because the Author is good.



> Tolkien outright says Gandalf is the only one who ever would have truly mastered the ring and surpassed Sauron- and considering Olorin exceeded Sauron in wisdom and smarts that would have been scary


I dont know everything Tolkien said (he did exclude Galadriel  ) but i assume without the Ring in the Game Saruman would make his own probably later then sooner.
Fully controlling something made by someone else might be another League than making your own. 

Thats just the RTS player speaking if you never go for the offensive you can only lose.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 4, 2012)

mcdave said:


> or Sauron.



yup if he threw everything he had at her 



mcdave said:


> That you have to proof it shows me that shes not really a lead in her Tier. You are too defensive. Hermione is a terrible Character if you take Harry out of the equation just think of it. The plot hides it very well because the Author is good.



lets see here Sauron had a stalker style obsession with breaching her mental defenses and tried as often as he could, even when he had the one ring he simply couldn't manage it

she turned Dul Guldur into a smoldering crater as per the appendices

she got up in Feanors face, she learned directly from Melian..she was considered one of the wisest beings alive by some of the highest of the top tiers...

her power was so great Tolkien outright states Sauron could never take her and her nation down unless he came at her when he was at his strongest 

Elves weaker than her managed a double take down of a Balrog..

she held her entire country in a time lock that blocked out entropy..her telepathic range was disgustingly obscene..

yup..totally not enough feats to say she was in the top ten strongest Elves




mcdave said:


> I dont know everything Tolkien said (he did exclude Galadriel  ) but i assume without the Ring in the Game Saruman would make his own probably later then sooner.
> Fully controlling something made by someone else might be another League than making your own.



Saruman did make his own ring..it barely merited a foot note..Gandalf even made fun of him for bragging about it

so this "he'll become a carbon copy of Sauron" is bullshit Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar ever...Saruman was not

Gandalf was...Saruman not so much


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## mcdave (Nov 5, 2012)

> Saruman did make his own ring..it barely merited a foot note..Gandalf even made fun of him for bragging about it
> 
> so this "he'll become a carbon copy of Sauron" is bullshit Sauron was one of the most powerful Maiar ever...Saruman was not
> 
> Gandalf was...Saruman not so much


Thats just me assuming Powertiers can change over Time in this case almost eternity. Because with in Character Galadriel Saruman would have almost no Timelimit. But probably not in Tolkienverse you are right. 




> yup..totally not enough feats to say she was in the top ten strongest Elves


Galadriel is terrible just admit it 

She is one of the weakest in her Tier and you know it and its only because shes a women and that is on purpose. Elrond > Galadriel word of God.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 5, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Thats just me assuming Powertiers can change over Time in this case almost eternity. Because with in Character Galadriel Saruman would have almost no Timelimit. But probably not in Tolkienverse you are right.



they tend to get weaker over time in the tolkien universe 



mcdave said:


> Galadriel is terrible just admit it
> 
> She is one of the weakest in her Tier and you know it and its only because shes a women and that is on purpose. Elrond > Galadriel word of God.



when you're done spewing out nonsense.. lemme know


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## mcdave (Nov 5, 2012)

I have not enough knowledge to call you out for it but i haveeeee the vague hunch that you are a major Galadriel Fan.

If i do such a rant for Sakura it would sound impressive as well. Created earthfissures with her bare Hands stuck almost a knife into one of the mightiest Uchiha alive .....
Healed the Brother of the Kazekage with something only Tsunade herself might have achieved. Defeated the mighty Sasori of the Sand who was almost Immortal after losing his Humanity. Well she was the smartest of her entire class too and by some of the most Powerfull Ninjas regarded as the wisest under them 

You know thats just my impression. The Point is all the other People in her Powertier might outshine her if you make a similar list for them.


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## igeku somrazunta (Nov 5, 2012)

Galadriel takes it because lol saruman. When true wit and tact meet true wisdom plus motherfucking country level telepathic abilities. Its no contest. 
Then again the rohirrim were considered wise and saruman held them in his pocket. So he can deceive on a country level. Then AGAIN galadriel pulled it off for millenia. Saruman not so much.


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## blueblip (Nov 5, 2012)

It depends on which Saruman we're using.

If this is before he went off the deep end, I think it would be a lot closer than people give him credit for. IWD covered Galadriel quite well, so I'm not going to repeat it all here. I'm going to talk about Saruman a bit.

It's clear that Saruman's power diminshed when he thought he could become the second Sauron (consider his state in _The Scouring of the Shire_). I mean, prior to that, he was stated by Gandalf to be the most powerful of all the 'wizards', and while I understand that Gandalf can be humble, there was probably a grain of truth to this. When Saruman went all dark side/insane, it looked like he lost what was his greatest asset - being a strategist. Hell, he lost his sanity, which is why he went around screaming he was "Saruman, Ring Maker" and so on.

So that's why I see two different scenarios - Saruman before he lost his mind would be able to outmaneuver Galadriel and beat her, both in a one-on-one fight and if they clash armies. It would be close, but I think Saruman would prove to be the greater tactician.

After he went nuts, though, Galadriel would stomp his shit in.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 5, 2012)

mcdave said:


> I have not enough knowledge to call you out for it but i haveeeee the vague hunch that you are a major Galadriel Fan.



every time you accuse someone of biased it turns out to be a horrifically false accusation that only damages your credibility

first you attack Island  then me?



mcdave said:


> You know thats just my impression. The Point is all the other People in her Powertier might outshine her if you make a similar list for them.



...I'm assuming you don't know how to read either that or you're engaging in deliberate misrepresentation of anothers posts

considering the feats I listed off for the other big dogs..you're either a moron, can't read or are a liar if you just implied what you just implied based off my posts



igeku somrazunta said:


> Galadriel takes it because lol saruman. When true wit and tact meet true wisdom plus motherfucking country level telepathic abilities. Its no contest.
> Then again the rohirrim were considered wise and saruman held them in his pocket. So he can deceive on a country level. Then AGAIN galadriel pulled it off for millenia. Saruman not so much.



both have country level range.. the main difference is when Saruman tried to play that game with Sauron..he eventually ended up eroded and mentally broken Galadriel not so much

not that his voice raping abilities aren't still dangerous




blueblip said:


> It's clear that Saruman's power diminshed when he thought he could become the second Sauron (consider his state in _The Scouring of the Shire_). I mean, prior to that, he was stated by Gandalf to be the most powerful of all the 'wizards', and while I understand that Gandalf can be humble, there was probably a grain of truth to this. When Saruman went all dark side/insane, it looked like he lost what was his greatest asset - being a strategist. Hell, he lost his sanity, which is why he went around screaming he was "Saruman, Ring Maker" and so on.



as far as Istari bodies go yeah Saruman prefall out powered the gray pilgrim but as Varda (or was it Yavana?) said "he goes first in title only"

Olorin was the superior Maiar..and while he feared Sauron there's a chance prime Olorin could have taken Prime Sauron..


blueblip said:


> So that's why I see two different scenarios - Saruman before he lost his mind would be able to outmaneuver Galadriel and beat her, both in a one-on-one fight and if they clash armies. It would be close, but I think Saruman would prove to be the greater tactician.
> .



to be fair Cirdan and Galadriel were the only people who instinctively mistrusted Saruman right off the bat and lobbied for Gandalf to be the head of the white council

I think in a pre degeneration match you mix that in with Saurons own caution of her.. and I wouldn't call it clear cut one way or the other

incidentally nice to see you back


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## mcdave (Nov 5, 2012)

> every time


Lol "Everytime". In the 2 or 3 Threads i was seriously involved 



> first you attack Island


I attack nobody just giving my honest oppinion. The "Hermione" > "Galadriel" butthurt of you  right from the start  was giving me the impression that you are trying to proof something in here.

She has the telepathics, Timelock (unquantifiable?), Booksmarts and Destroyed Dul Guldur casually. Anything else?

She is in the Top Ten of Elfs add Olorin+ Sauron to it and we have more.
Further add some Balroggs they might be in that Powertier too and the world looks different. I think you are not outright twisting the Truth but listing facts in her Favor.

She probably takes Saruman in a 1vs1 20m,bloodlusted,HTC  but Galadriel>=Sauron no. (combat!)


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 5, 2012)

Been awhile since I last posted in a LoTR thread. Interesting match up. If its just Saruman and not Curumo, then Galadriel may win here more often than not. High tier elves are sometimes compared to low level Maia in power. And the power the Istari were allowed to use were so limited, otherwise 3 Maia could have easily wrecked a ring less Sauron.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 5, 2012)

Sarumon without any restrictions should still lose considering word of god has stated that Sauron is needed and he's certainly above Sarumon.


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 5, 2012)

Good point. But was it ever stated that Sauron needed the ring to defeat a Nenya wielding Galadriel? Makes you realize just how powerful First Age elves are. We have Fingolfin going one on one with Morgoth and Finrod with Sauron. 

Been awhile since I last read the books, might as well reread them now while waiting for The Hobbit film.


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## ikoke (Nov 5, 2012)

Was it ever clearly stated how Galadriel destroyed Dol-Goldur?
The old wiki states that she did it with her bare strength,but the only thing from the books that I remember simply say that "she threw down it's walls and laid bare it's pits",or something along those lines....


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## mcdave (Nov 5, 2012)

This  says


> Galadriel did not 'single-handedly' fight off the attacks from Dol Guldur.
> JRRT writes:
> "After the fall of the Dark Tower and the passing of Sauron the Shadow was lifted from the hearts of all who opposed him. but fear and despair fell upon his servants and allies. Three times L?rien had been assailed from Dol Guldur. but besides the valour of the elven people of that land. the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of L?rien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."
> LotR App. B.
> ...


Quite ambigous


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 5, 2012)

only ambiguous if you're a liar

_ and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed."_



Akabara Strauss said:


> Been awhile since I last posted in a LoTR thread. Interesting match up. If its just Saruman and not Curumo, then Galadriel may win here more often than not. High tier elves are sometimes compared to low level Maia in power. And the power the Istari were allowed to use were so limited, otherwise 3 Maia could have easily wrecked a ring less Sauron.



Olorin backed up by Curumo and the blue Istari and Radagast in their true forms would have been a rape indeed

IIRC Sauron being gimped as he was probably would have had trouble with just Olorin- Gandalf was humble but he was pretty high on the totem pole


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## mcdave (Nov 5, 2012)

She did it of course involving Armys or some shit would be dishonest. I mean it would be more impressive if we had a Timeframe.
If you Destroy a Castle in seconds its impressive but half a Day less so.
You said her mere presence did it but thats not 100% accurate we never knew really how she did it same with the Karadras and Saruman.
The words threw and laid imply at least some action from her. 
Addional she did it after the shadow (aka Saurons Will)left. Thats not some high End showing. She had month for that if i read it the right way she and celeborn were the cleanup troop.

I said its ambigous and well it is. If you have another oppinion fine i can accept that.


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## blueblip (Nov 5, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> as far as Istari bodies go yeah Saruman prefall out powered the gray pilgrim but as Varda (or was it Yavana?) said "he goes first in title only"
> 
> Olorin was the superior Maiar..and while he feared Sauron there's a chance prime Olorin could have taken Prime Sauron..
> 
> ...


It's only later we realise how powerful Gandalf as Olorin really is. And yes, he does turn out to be more powerful than Saruman, but not by such a degree that Olorin would be a whole tier or two above him. At least that's what I think. Otherwise, the Vala wouldn't have bothered putting Saruman/Curunir in charge in the first place (though I admit it might have also been because Olorin was more than capable of breaking the Vala's oath of never taking direct action on Middle Earth). In any case, Curunir wasn't a slouch for a Maiar. If anything, the fact that we think Galadriel stands a chance against him at all in a direct confrontation is a testament to her power - she can challenge a Maia who's possibly mid tier in power (for a Maia).

I guess I should be clearer. The being called Curunir would beat Galadriel. The being called Saruman would lose. And when I mean Saruman, I mean the being who was so lost in his schemes he actually seemed to disassociate himself from being Curunir. There's a clear difference between the two in power.

The only reason Galadriel can go against Curunir is because she is from Valinor herself. She's not a 'watered down' elf of the third age. Any smart Maia would be scared of one of those elves, their divine heritage be damned. But I will admit a war between Curunir and Galadriel would be a lot closer than people suspect. But like I said earlier, Saruman vs. Galdriel ends with Galadriel putting the deranged Maia in his place.

Off topic, but Prime Olorin vs. Prime Sauron is a debate I'm not getting into here because that's whole other can of worms 


			
				The Immortal Watchdog said:
			
		

> incidentally nice to see you back


Thanks mate! It's the rare thread that makes me want to post these days, and you know I can't resist a good LotR thread


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 5, 2012)

I think Saruman knew that Gandalf had more power and wisdom than him, it was in one of the appendces IIRC.

As for the sacking of Dol Guldor, concensus among fans was that Galadriel did it alone, if Vilya can command rivers and likely has minor control over elements, we can likely assume that Nenya would have had the power to do the same.


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## Reddan (Nov 5, 2012)

Saruman takes this one. He was the leader of the Istari and able to use the most power. His voice was enough to keep the Nazgul at bay. It was thanks to Saruman's wizardry that they were able to drive the Sauron out of Mirkwood. The Balrog was a foe to strong for Lothlorien, but Gandalf defeated him. Saruman is stronger still, than Gandalf the Grey.


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## sonic546 (Nov 5, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Galadriel is terrible just admit it
> 
> She is one of the weakest in her Tier and you know it and its only because shes a women and that is on purpose. Elrond > Galadriel word of God.



Galadriel. Terrible.

Get the fuck out.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 5, 2012)

Akabara Strauss said:


> I think Saruman knew that Gandalf had more power and wisdom than him, it was in one of the appendces IIRC.
> 
> As for the sacking of Dol Guldor, concensus among fans was that Galadriel did it alone, if Vilya can command rivers and likely has minor control over elements, we can likely assume that Nenya would have had the power to do the same.



the sacking happened post the destruction of the one Ring if memory serves..whatever she did she did alone 

mind ye yeah those rings are a nifty booster too



blueblip said:


> It's only later we realise how powerful Gandalf as Olorin really is. And yes, he does turn out to be more powerful than Saruman, *but not by such a degree that Olorin would be a whole tier or two above him.* At least that's what I think. Otherwise, the Vala wouldn't have bothered putting Saruman/Curunir in charge in the first place (though I admit it might have also been because Olorin was more than capable of breaking the Vala's oath of never taking direct action on Middle Earth). In any case, Curunir wasn't a slouch for a Maiar. If anything, the fact that we think Galadriel stands a chance against him at all in a direct confrontation is a testament to her power - she can challenge a Maia who's possibly mid tier in power (for a Maia).[




actually The Valar from what I recall did not but Curunir in charge and one of them outright said "he is first in name only" more or less..hell when the white council was first formed there was a shitstorm about whether Saruman should be the boss or Gandalf..who was being lobbied by Cirdan and Galadriel

from what I recall Gandalf declined and said Saruman was first..

as for the pecking order while I don't believe olorin was on the same tier as Sauron in terms of raw power..he was wiser than him..so it seems kinda like in some areas he exceeded in others he was lacking

I rank Sauron as number two behind Eonwe though with Olorin filling out the bottom half of the top five 



blueblip said:


> I guess I should be clearer. The being called Curunir would beat Galadriel. The being called Saruman would lose. And when I mean Saruman, I mean the being who was so lost in his schemes he actually seemed to disassociate himself from being Curunir. There's a clear difference between the two in power.



there's also a hint that he botched making a ring of power..or did succeed but in doing so weakened himself as he wasn't up to snuff



blueblip said:


> The only reason Galadriel can go against Curunir is because she is from Valinor herself. She's not a 'watered down' elf of the third age. Any smart Maia would be scared of one of those elves, their divine heritage be damned. But I will admit a war between Curunir and Galadriel would be a lot closer than people suspect. But like I said earlier, Saruman vs. Galdriel ends with Galadriel putting the deranged Maia in his place.



precedent for it sure..Feanor vs the Balrogs..Fingolfin vs Morgoth, Finrod vs Sauron and so on

most of those were losses or double take downs though in Glory and Ecthelions cases



blueblip said:


> Off topic, but Prime Olorin vs. Prime Sauron is a debate I'm not getting into here



fandom shitstorm right there

'




sonic546 said:


> Galadriel. Terrible.
> 
> Get the fuck out.



see if he had said "melian = terrible" for emoing out and abandoning her body after Thingol died..I'd of agreed

or say Arwen for being useless

but Galadriel? she's up there with Luthien, Eowyn and hell the C S Lewis kids with "original strong female leads"



arednad said:


> Saruman takes this one. He was the leader of the Istari and able to use the most power. His voice was enough to keep the Nazgul at bay. It was thanks to Saruman's wizardry that they were able to drive the Sauron out of Mirkwood. The Balrog was a foe to strong for Lothlorien, but Gandalf defeated him. Saruman is stronger still, than Gandalf the Grey.



Sauron kinda threw that fight on purpose not that I'm saying Saruman sucked or anything or that his assistance there wasn't important


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## mcdave (Nov 5, 2012)

> see if he had said "melian = terrible" for emoing out and abandoning her body after Thingol died..I'd of agreed
> 
> or say Arwen for being useless


That was irony notice the : maybe

Arwen was probably a great Mother and Wife


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 5, 2012)

Arwen probably was but that woman embodies buyers remorse from what I remember

and Melian IIRC their realm still had a fighting chance..her "dying" of grief was pretty horrible under those circumstances


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 6, 2012)

IIRC Curunir was proposed by Aule, Alatar was proposed by Orome, and Olorin by Manwe. It was Varda who mentioned that Olorin was proposed not as the "third" Istari. The other 2 Istari were tag alongs .

And Melian left when Thingol died, had she stayed Doriath would not have fallen. I guess her leaving was just to emphasize Ulmo's prophecy that Gondolin would be the last of the Elven kingdoms to fall.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 6, 2012)

I suppose so but prophecy aside she had a choice and that was incredibly messed up

oh and since the hobbit is coming out in a month if we're gonna do more LOTR threads anyone here have any knowledge on record of lodoss war?


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## Reddan (Nov 6, 2012)

Akabara Strauss said:


> IIRC Curunir was proposed by Aule, Alatar was proposed by Orome, and Olorin by Manwe. It was Varda who mentioned that Olorin was proposed not as the "third" Istari. The other 2 Istari were tag alongs .
> 
> And Melian left when Thingol died, had she stayed Doriath would not have fallen. I guess her leaving was just to emphasize Ulmo's prophecy that Gondolin would be the last of the Elven kingdoms to fall.



I am not too sure about the last part. Ultimately Doriath was doomed as soon as Thingol asked for the Silmaril as the bridal price for Luthien. They then became entwined in the curse and would have destroyed themselves.

That apart creatures of great enough power could break the girdle. We saw the Silmaril empowered Carcharoth break through. Now if it was not for Huan, he quite possibly could have almost destroyed Doriath by himself. 

Glaurung had yet to attack Doriath, but this does not mean he could not do so at a later date. Once he had grown to his full strength he was preoccupied with destroying the Children of Hurin. 

Lastly Anchalagon the Black would have certainly destroyed Doriath with his power whether Melian had stayed at not.

EDIT

It is important to note that with Tolkien, when two characters fight there is the spiritual and physical battles.

The higher up the scale we go Man to Valar, the greater the spiritual power. Now even if you are stronger than someone, if they completely smash in you spiritual power you will be crushed. 

Saruman is greater than Galadriel in spiritual power and a match for her physically. He has other arts that are highly effective in battle too.


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## I3igAl (Nov 7, 2012)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I suppose so but prophecy aside she had a choice and that was incredibly messed up
> 
> oh and since the hobbit is coming out in a month if we're gonna do more LOTR threads anyone here *have any knowledge on record of lodoss war?*



Only watched the anime didn't read any novels. And I'm intenting to watch the OVA and the other anime soon. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



I'd also like to promote Guin Saga
 , because when I tried making some threads with the characters, they got bumped and lost in Oblivion   .





*On topic:* I have to admit it's been quite some time, since I read the Silmarillion and I barely remember much of Galadriel there aside of being taught by Melian. However I think Saruman in his prime should have able to beat her, even if he lacks direct feats. He was chosen to lead the Ishtair for a reason and though Galladriel shure is powerful, I doubt she could win.



*Spoiler*: __ 




*What the hell is that Hermione vs Galladriel discussion?* Since when is Galladriel a lead character? Ok in her own story in the unfinished Tales she kinda is...but I mean Tolkien's mythopoetic style is is much too far from Rowling's down to earth characters, that one can compare anything here. Even if Galadriel was worthless for her tier it would just be Tolkien using mythological themes. He is writing mythology after all.

Tolkien's writing should stay as what it is: His own way of creating mythology wth a few references to our culture. His way of characterizing differs to much from most modern writers to make any comparisons, since everything is connected to the characters spiritual powers, their Charisma, not so much their psychological drama(aside of Frodo and Sam).
If you want to compare anything to Hermione choose some female character from a highschool story or some youth novel and it will work.


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## Reddan (Nov 7, 2012)

I3igAl said:


> B]What the hell is that Hermione vs Galladriel discussion?[/B] Since when is Galladriel a lead character? Ok in her own story in the unfinished Tales she kinda is...but I mean Tolkien's mythopoetic style is is much too far from Rowling's down to earth characters, that one can compare anything here. Even if Galadriel was worthless for her tier it would just be Tolkien using mythological themes. He is writing mythology after all.
> 
> .[/SPOILER]



What do you mean Galadriel is worthless for her tier? Physically she is one of the strongest elves ever. She could give any of the other elf lords a fight and beat most. Spiritually and 'magically' she is stronger than virtually all of the elves. Really with the exceptions of the elves with Maia blood, cannot think of many more powerful than her. Feanor, Glorfindel, Earendil if you count him and then we are struggling. Even if we count those with maiar ancestry there is still only Elrond possibly, Elwing possibly and Luthien certainly.


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## I3igAl (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> What do you mean Galadriel is worthless for her tier? Physically she is one of the strongest elves ever. She could give any of the other elf lords a fight and beat most. Spiritually and 'magically' she is stronger than virtually all of the elves. Really with the exceptions of the elves with Maia blood, cannot think of many more powerful than her. Feanor, Glorfindel, Earendil if you count him and then we are struggling. Even if we count those with maiar ancestry there is still only Elrond possibly, Elwing possibly and Luthien certainly.



It's not my opinion she is weak or worthless, that's why I used the konjunctive. I just quoted the other guy, who used this argument earlier in the thread.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

I3igAl said:


> It's not my opinion she is weak or worthless, that's why I used the konjunctive. I just quoted the other guy, who used this argument earlier in the thread.



Okay sorry about that. Here is what Tolkien had to say about Galadriel.

*Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser then he... *

Note that this would not include Halfelvens and Elrond traced his lineage through his mother's line.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Greatest =/= strongest the Battle prowness (including weakend Istari) of the Worldly high Tiers in Lotro is hard to quantify.

I don't think Galadriels Powers work with the same effiency against inherent Good things for example.

She is strong but i think i'am putting her in a higher Tier overall that could explain the misunderstanding. In the Tier in which I would Place her she would rank low-mid overall.


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 8, 2012)

Greatest is in regards to raw power which is still not weak, she's described as one of the most powerful and quite wise hardly a weak female character.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Greatest =/= strongest the Battle prowness (including weakend Istari) of the Worldly high Tiers in Lotro is hard to quantify.
> 
> I don't think Galadriels Powers work with the same effiency against inherent Good things for example.



I know this very well. Nor does being the most powerful mean you are the best fighter. A perfect example of this is Fingolfin and Feanor. Feanor was a fair bit more powerful, but would lose to his brother in a fight. Other examples are Manwe and Tulkus etc.

Galadriel though was both great, mighty and strong.
*
she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth. Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and her hair was held a marvel unmatched.* 

I don't think it's fair to compare her power to the Istari. They are Maiar after all.

It's fair to compare her with other elves. If we do that then she is very high up. Apart from Glorfindel, who arrived later she was the most powerful Elf after the First Age. Note Elrond was never counted as an elf.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> I don't think it's fair to compare her power to the Istari.


Thats what we do in this Thread and many People think she will win. I think it would be unfair to put her into a Lower Tier. Ring of Power+Noldor and all.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Thats what we do in this Thread and many People think she will win. I think it would be unfair to put her into a Lower Tier. Ring of Power+Noldor and all.



That statement came out wrong. It is fine and well putting her up against Saruman  in a battledome. I meant when talking about her power level only fair to compare her against other elves. Since Maiar are by very nature usually stronger than elves. So it is impressive that she can match the weaker ones. 

Out of the elves only the Maiar descendants, Feanor, Earendil, Glorfindel and possibly Fingolfin are more powerful. That for me is very high up in the tier.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

OBD Tiers are sorted by Battle Power and she is in the Tier of the limited Istari (probably 3) together with  Feanor, Earendil, Glorfindel and possibly Fingolfin Elrond, Sauron maybe and some Balroggs.
Maybe we would need to add some Dragons and spiders as well.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> OBD Tiers are sorted by Battle Power and she is in the Tier of the limited Istari (probably 3) together with  Feanor, Earendil, Glorfindel and possibly Fingolfin Elrond, Sauron maybe and some Balroggs.
> Maybe we would need to add some Dragons and spiders as well.



These tiers don't seem very accurate.

Earendil, Feanor and returned Glorfindel are not in the same tier power wise as Gandalf the Grey, Elrond, Galadriel and the Balrogs. 

What the hell is Sauron doing in this tier? Sauron at his strongest is above even the first three. If this is based on power, then this would be more accurate

Tier 1
Sauron

Tier 2
Feanor, Earendil, Gandalf the White, Glorfindel

Tier 3
Saruman, Gandalf Grey, Fingolfin, Elrond, Galadriel, Balrogs

EDIT
Or are the tiers purely based on who would win a fight, because that changes things hugely.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Where would you place ungoliath and Ancalagon in those Tiers?
The First King of Numenor + Witchking of Angmar too?

EDIT: Of course they are OBD


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Where would you place ungoliath and Ancalagon in those Tiers?
> The First King of Numenor too?
> 
> EDIT: Of course they are OBD



Oh then that changes things a lot. Fingolfin is bumped up hugely. He might even be able to take Sauron. 

Thin it would be something like this. Based on who would win a fight.

Tier 1
Ungoliant, Ancalagon, Glaurung, Carcharoth, Huan

Tier 2
Sauron, Fingolfin, Earendil, Feanor, Gandalf White, Glorfindel, Hurin, Turin, Beren

Tier 3
Fingon, Ecthelion, Maedros, Elendil, Gil-galad, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond, Galadriel, Beleg, Balrogs

Tier 4
Curufin, Celegorm, Maeglin


Elros in a fight should be on the same tier as Elrond. There was no difference between them physically or in power. 


EDIT fleshing things out a bit.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Maybe you or Immortal could make a thread in the Meta and sort them by Battle prowness 
Naruto for Example is High Kage Level+ in Power but in Name only hes a Chunin.
Was that done before i dont know?


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## Nanja (Nov 8, 2012)

> She is outclassed by the males in her own canon. Hermione on the otherhand overshines her Peers.



I just had to comment. How does being outclassed by anyone make you a lesser character? So if there is a stronger male(as is usually the case anyway), the female character is degraded? Combat ability doesn't mean squat in terms of quality or strength of a fictional character.

Galadriel is a cool stuff.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Maybe you or Immortal could make a thread in the Meta and sort them by Battle prowness
> Naruto for Example is High Kage Level+ in Power but in Name only hes a Chunin.
> Was that done before i dont know?



Me and Immortal don't get along and disagree, but would not mind looking at a tier list.

Some of the groupings are fairly easy. For instance the Balrogs give us an easy way to put a lot of people on the same tier.

Gothmog, Gandalf the Grey, First Age Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Fingon are all roughly on the same tier. They all fought a Balrog equally. 

Legolas, Aragorn, Boromir and Gimli obviously below that.

Gandalf the White and 3rd Age Glorfindel came back much more powerful and so are now above the Balrog tier.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> I just had to comment. How does being outclassed by anyone make you a lesser character?





> She is outclassed by the males in her own canon. Hermione on the otherhand overshines her Peers. I think thats is the Mainreason *why People could fall for that*


You are mixing things


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

With the first of the Hobbit trilogies coming out I think it's a good time to discuss a Tolkien tier list. So have tried to submit one in the Metabattledome.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

Yep that would be cool


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## blueblip (Nov 8, 2012)

arednad said:


> With the first of the Hobbit trilogies coming out I think it's a good time to discuss a Tolkien tier list. So have tried to submit one in the Metabattledome.


Best of luck. I tried to do that a few years ago. It ended very quietly with no consensus coming out of it, barring that Eru is top dog.

EDIT: Here's the thread. 

And I sincerely hope you can pull this off. LotR-verse needs some sort of method to its madness in the OBD.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

blueblip said:


> Best of luck. I tried to do that a few years ago. It ended very quietly with no consensus coming out of it, barring that Eru is top dog.



Yes, but I think it's best to work slowly putting in characters everyone agrees with. I think once people realise there is a difference between power and fighting ability things will be easier.

Like Eru at the top is obvious.

Followed by Tulkas and then Melkor.

You cannot really argue that FA Glorfindel, Gandalf the  Grey, Fingon, Ecthelion, Gothmog, other Balrogs are on the same tier.

Other things like Gandalf the Grey>Aragorn>Boromir>Faramir>Eomer are canon.

Or Huan=Carcharoth>Sauron=Elendil+Gil-galadad.

Or Fingolfin>any elf.
Hurin>any man.

Will bump the thread and see what agreements we can come too.


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## Nanja (Nov 8, 2012)

mcdave said:


> You are mixing things



I didn't mean to imply you directly btw. Was more of a general 'screw that logic' for anyone who ascribes to it.


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## Nerwende (Nov 8, 2012)

I don?t get why it is always stated that Glorfindel should be more powerful than Galadriel. In canon Galadriel is the the most powerful elf in the third age, Tolkien said so, therefore more powerful than Elrond too.

"Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" (after the death of Gil-galad) -> so more power than Glorfindel, who became almost the equal of a maiar and more beautiful than her grandchild Arwen, who was in the likeness of Luthien.

"Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion (1977, Houghton Mifflin), p. 298

'These two kinsfolk (Galadriel and Feanor), the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor*, were unfriends for ever.'

*Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Luthien Tinuviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

note 14, "The Shibboleth of Feanor"

The ranking would be that:
1. Luthien
2. Galadriel or Feanor, IMHO Galadriel is greater than Feanor, he was a fool and she saw it. Her hair was an inspiration for his work on he Silmarils and she wouldn?t even give him one hair. And she was brilliant in mind and swift in action and wanted to go to ME for the exercise of her talents, not like Feanor for some foolish revenge.

Furthermore she was a match for both the loremasters and the athlets of the eldar in their youth, so she was also physically strong, maybe not as strong like Glorfindel or others males but she would defeat them with her magic and mindcontrol.

Back on the topic, she could have taken Saruman, she was immune to his voice, in the end of the book it becomes clear that he never hold might over her.

"And as for the Lady here, I do not trust her: she always hated me, and schemed for your part. I do not doubt that she has brought you this way to have the pleasure of gloating over my poverty."

Is such a shame, Galadriel should be much higher. The only ones being more powerful than her (in ME) should be Sauron (of course) and Gandalf the white. Even the Witch King is afraid of her.


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> I don?t get why it is always stated that Glorfindel should be more powerful than Galadriel. In canon Galadriel is the the most powerful elf in the third age, Tolkien said so, therefore more powerful than Elrond too.
> 
> "Galadriel was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth" (after the death of Gil-galad)
> "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in The Silmarillion (1977, Houghton Mifflin), p. 298
> ...



Some points.
1. Elrond is not an elf and was not included when Tolkien spoke about the elves. Either were the likes of Earendil, Elwing, Arwen and Dior.

2. Glorfindel is a very unique case. He was already a powerful Noldor Lord, but he died to save Earendil. He died to save the saviour of the world. This alongside him being an all round great guy meant he was elevated close to the power of Olorin. Not Gandalf the Grey, but Olorin the Maia. He was sent back like the Istari to fight against Sauron.

3. Saruman is still greater. He was the leader of the Istari and given the most power. Saruman was stronger than Gandalf the Grey. Nor was she immune to his voice, because it was Saruman, who got the group to delay their attacks on Dol Guldur. Galadriel would have been hard pressed to beat the Balrog. The most probable outcome would have been Lothlorien being destroyed. Saruman on the other hand was stronger than Gandalf and should have been able to handle it.

Galadriel was great and powerful. For some reason people do not rate her as highly as she should be. That being said she is not as powerful as Feanor, Luthien, Earendil, Glorfindel. Dior and Elwing wielding the Silmaril are stronger. As for Elrond he is probably slightly above her too. He has divine ancestry. Even a member of that race as far removed as Aragorn can heal and see the future.

EDIT
So yes apart from:
1. Feanor a freakishly powerful elf. Just a freak in power.
2. Earendil the guy made to be the saviour
3. Glorfindel the hero, who saved Earendil, who the Valar set apart. Was rewarded with more power.
4. People with divine ancestry she is more powerful than the rest.


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## Nerwende (Nov 8, 2012)

In the third age Elrond was an elf (he decided to be one) and Glorfindel was in Me already again and in this timeframe Tolkien said she was the most powerful. The quote proves that.
Glorfindel was a follower or pupil of Olorin, that is right, but Galadriel was a pupil of a Maia too, Melian. And of Aule and Yavanna too, Elrond doesn?t have this advantage. He can control the river, but she is able to destroy teh walls of Dol Guldur, like Luthien once did and she had a realm that no one but Sauron could conquer and she was able to read Sauron thoughts but hers were still closed to him.

OK, Elrond was halfelven, but when Tolkien sais that she was the greatest of the remaining elves, then for me that includes Elrond. He made his coice, could depart, didn?t, so he was in the bunch of the "remainer". 
Same with Arwen, when Tolkien sais that she is the fairest of the remaining elves of ME, than that includes Arwen as well, even if she decides to be a mortal, the beauty she had from the immortal. But beauty is anyway not that important.

 She is older than him and lived in the blessed realm and if she was equal of Feanor, then no way Elrond can be more powerful than her.

He held no power over her, the attack was delayed cause the group decided it and he was the leader of that group, so Galadriel had to go along with it. She always mistrusted him, the same like she mistrusted Annatar. She wanted Gandalf the be the head of the concil, but he wouldn?t. That must have been a heavy throwback. I believe Sauruman and Galadriel never got along very well, you see that very clear in his words to her at the end of the story. 
"And as for the Lady here, I do not trust her: she always hated me, and schemed for your part. I do not doubt that she has brought you this way to have the pleasure of gloating over my poverty."

Nothing could have destroyed Lorien, unless Suaron woud have come there himself, means the Balrog would have failed.

She is as powerful as Feanor,  they are equal, even if unlike endowments. Somewhere there is a quote for that, i just don?t have it in the moment. 

I don?t think Elwing or Dior are stronger, only because they are wielding a Silmaril?!?! There is nothng in the text that indicates that. With Luthien I agree, she was mightier, but then she was half divine.

Well, Earendil, I too don?t think he had more power than her, I admit he was more special maybe, but no text states the he was the mightiest or the greates (unless as a mariner, there he was the greatest of course) but it is clearly stated that Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the greatest of all elves overall and not just in one area.

OK, Elrond has divine ancestry, but Galadriel has that too in some weird way, her grandfatheres Finwe and Olwe were of the unbegotten ( I know there a debates regarding that, cause Olwe and Elwe were brothers, but the Valar had brothers too)and Galadriel great grandfather would be Eru. Probably that is far fetched, but she is third generation, that makes her so powerful.


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

> Nothing could have destroyed Lorien, unless Suaron woud have come there himself, means the Balrog would have failed


The Balroggs were no major Players in the war of the third age and the Moria incident was by chance. Tolkien was refering to the forces involved in the conflict. Sauron had no Balrogs under his control


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

I like this new guy he knows his shit

minor disagreement though- I doubt she had more power than Feanor she did get in his face (when he came close to killing his brother for it) but all the same

as for her not being able to take down a Balrog- no proof exists that Excthelion or Glory were more powerful than her..so bullshit she couldn't do it


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## mcdave (Nov 8, 2012)

? Would fit somehow. Or just chance i mean there are probably more Galadriel fans out there? :Y


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 8, 2012)

oh shit


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## Reddan (Nov 8, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> In the third age Elrond was an elf (he decided to be one) and Glorfindel was in Me already again and in this timeframe Tolkien said she was the most powerful. The quote proves that.
> Glorfindel was a follower or pupil of Olorin, that is right, but Galadriel was a pupil of a Maia too, Melian. And of Aule and Yavanna too, Elrond doesnt have this advantage. He can control the river, but she is able to destroy teh walls of Dol Guldur, like Luthien once did and she had a realm that no one but Sauron could conquer and she was able to read Sauron thoughts but hers were still closed to him.


Nope Elrond was NEVER an Elf. This is a mistake people are quick to make. He always remained one of the Halfelven. Quickly go and flick through your LOTR copy. He is always addressed as Elrond the Halfelven might among both Elves and Men.

Elrond has something better. He is an ACTUAL descendant of Melian. He has the blood of someone who helped shape the world flowing through his veins. 

Elrond's power is not just in his control of the river. He has foresight greater than Galadriel (due Melian who saw the history of the world unfold), he is the most powerful healer around. He kept Rivendell safe even when surrounded by Sauron's entire forces. 


> OK, Elrond was halfelven, but when Tolkien sais that she was the greatest of the remaining elves, then for me that includes Elrond. He made his coice, could depart, didnt, so he was in the bunch of the "remainer".
> Same with Arwen, when Tolkien sais that she is the fairest of the remaining elves of ME, than that includes Arwen as well, even if she decides to be a mortal, the beauty she had from the immortal. But beauty is anyway not that important.


No that is the mistake you are making. Tolkien wrote a letter addressing this point.

*"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights *

*"The Half-elven, such as Elrond and Arwen, can choose to which kind and fate they shall belong: choose once and for all *

Very plain there. Arwen was the fairest person alive, but being one of the Half-elven she was not included in the original statement. 

With the exception of Earendil, the chosen saviour of the world all the fairest people come from Melian. Luthien, Dior, Elwing and Arwen. Again this is due to her being a divine being.

*“he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.”*

*Here was born also Elwing the White, fairest of women save Lthien, unto Dior in Ossiriand."*


> She is older than him and lived in the blessed realm and if she was equal of Feanor, then no way Elrond can be more powerful than her.


She was never the equal of Feanor. This much is clear. Feanor is alone in power. He is a freak. 

Again you don't realise that Galadriel gained power from living in the blessed realm. Elrond is a descendant from one of those, who created the blessed realm. 

Another instance where Tolkien implies Elronds power is talking about overthrowing Sauron. Tolkien singles out Elrond especially as having the best chance amongst the non Maia. 

*If the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. *


> He held no power over her, the attack was delayed cause the group decided it and he was the leader of that group, so Galadriel had to go along with it. She always mistrusted him, the same like she mistrusted Annatar. She wanted Gandalf the be the head of the concil, but he wouldnt. That must have been a heavy throwback. I believe Sauruman and Galadriel never got along very well, you see that very clear in his words to her at the end of the story.
> "And as for the Lady here, I do not trust her: she always hated me, and schemed for your part. I do not doubt that she has brought you this way to have the pleasure of gloating over my poverty."


Elrond too distrusted him, but it does not matter. Saruman won out and convinced the council to follow his plans. He was leader of the council, but he was not a dictator. 


> Nothing could have destroyed Lorien, unless Suaron woud have come there himself, means the Balrog would have failed.





> She is as powerful as Feanor,  they are equal, even if unlike endowments. Somewhere there is a quote for that, i just dont have it in the moment.


No they are not equals. They were rivals, but in every instant it is very clear Feanor alone was the most powerful of the Noldor. In several cases he is called the mightiest of the Noldor.

*Thus passed Fanor, the mightiest of the Noldor. His spirit waits in the halls of Mandos, until the day when he will redeem himself - in the final battle of Arda.*

*"For Fanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilvatar, and a bright flame was in him." *

There are MANY, MANY more quotes all agreeing he was the mightiest of the Noldor.


> I dont think Elwing or Dior are stronger, only because they are wielding a Silmaril?!?! There is nothng in the text that indicates that. With Luthien I agree, she was mightier, but then she was half divine.



The Silmaril increases your power. Actually there are several things that show this. A lot of the magic Galadriel uses was already done by Earendil with the Elessar. Elwing learned the ability to talk to birds and fly. 

Here is just one passage indicating the power the Silmarils gave.

*Of all the terrors that came ever into Beleriand ere Angband's fall the madness of Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him.*


> Well, Earendil, I too dont think he had more power than her, I admit he was more special maybe, but no text states the he was the mightiest or the greates (unless as a mariner, there he was the greatest of course) but it is clearly stated that Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel are the greatest of all elves overall and not just in one area.


Greatest and Mightiest are NOT the same thing. When Tolkien talks about raw ability power he uses Mightiest alone. I have already addressed how the Half-Elven are not elves. They are Half-elven. They are not countered among the elves.

As for Earendil he possibly defeated Ungoliant, he defeated Ancalagon and he was able to use the Elessar to heal his people. During the 2nd Age, Galadriel protected Lothlorien with the Elessar. Something Earendil had already done with the first Elessar.

*And before Idril set sail she said to Earendil her son: 'The Elessar I leave with thee, for there are grevious hurts to Middle-Earth which thou maybe shalt heal. But to none other shalt thou deliver it.'  And indeed at Sirion's Haven there were many hurts to heal both of elves and men, and from beast that fled thither from the horror of the North, and whilst Earendil dwelt there they were healed and prospered, and all things were for a while green and fair.*



*“Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father’s, and his mother’s, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: “I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elw, the Eluchil.”" *




> OK, Elrond has divine ancestry, but Galadriel has that too in some weird way, her grandfatheres Finwe and Olwe were of the unbegotten ( I know there a debates regarding that, cause Olwe and Elwe were brothers, but the Valar had brothers too)and Galadriel great grandfather would be Eru. Probably that is far fetched, but she is third generation, that makes her so powerful.


Now you are clutching at straws. Olwe and Elwe being brothers mean that they were NOT the originally created elves. LOL. I see you like Galadriel, but there is no point trying to twist things. She IS not a descendant of Eru. Your statement also would also mean Elwe, Finwe and Inwe should be stronger since they are even closer. 

Only through Melian did divine ancestry come into the world. The tell tale signs of this are their ability prophecy the future and healing.


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## Nerwende (Nov 9, 2012)

> Here was born also Elwing the White, fairest of women save L?thien, unto Dior in Ossiriand."



Where is that quote from? I don?t know it. Then it is in conflict with the statement of Arwen being the most beuatiful after Luthien.



> he appeared as the fairest of all the children of the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.”


 but only after he wielded the Silmaril.



> Elrond's power is not just in his control of the river. He has foresight greater than Galadriel (due Melian who saw the history of the world unfold), he is the most powerful healer around. He kept Rivendell safe even when surrounded by Sauron's entire forces.





> Very plain there. Arwen was the fairest person alive, but being one of the Half-elven she was not included in the original statement.



Gimli would disagree and if she would really look like Luthien, then there would be no question for Gimli who is faier.

I won?t disagree that he is the greater healer, but he had not the greatest forsight, that belnged to Cirdan.

Here Tolkien states explicitly, that C?rdan “seeing further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth (…) must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.”



> If the others *only* Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. *If so*, so also were the other guardians of the Three, *especially* Elrond. But this is another matter.



I often read only this part ot the quote, but that is misleading, here is the complete quote.

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. *It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council.* Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. "

That is the illusion the ring brigs with, everyone is influenced with that, especially Elrond but Galadriel too, but the only one who could master it would be Gandalf. That?s the way i read it.
They were all deceited that they could master the ring, especially Elrond. I at least understand it this way. Thats no reproach on Elrond, he clearly suffered and surley had the urge to pay Sauron everything back. Dunno

Again: "Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action."
"Unfinished Tales "The Istari"

So greater than Elrond IMHO, even if he wasn?t a full blood elf, doesn?t he belong to the Eldar, being decendant of Thingol?!!? Luthen was counted to the Eldar too, even if she wasn?t full blood elf.



> She was never the equal of Feanor. This much is clear. Feanor is alone in power. He is a freak.



Yes she is!
"...In this he (Tolkien) emphasized the *commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor*, *the equal if unlike endowments of F?anor*; and it is said here that so far from joining in F?anor's revolt she was in every way opposed to him. 
Unfinished tales

I don?t invented that, it is a fact said by Tolkien in the unfinished tales.

Greatness and might!?!? Year, there might be a difference, but I think then Tolkien said someone was the greatest, then he was also the mightiest, spiritually and physically. Galadriel was physically strong too, in one version she defended her kin at Aqualonde.

If Tolkien thought that Elrond would be the greatest ot the mightiest, I think he would have told so, but he never did, I believe he said that he was the greatest loremaster in ME. I have nothing against Elrond,but I think is widely acknowleged that Galadriel is his superiour, even if his ancestor was Melian.



> He kept Rivendell safe even when surrounded by Sauron's entire forces.



She did that too and it was added that only Sauron could overcome her, so no army had a chance to enter her realm.



> The Silmaril increases your power. Actually there are several things that show this. A lot of the magic Galadriel uses was already done by Earendil with the Elessar. *Elwing learned the ability to talk to birds and fly*.



But Elwing didn?t do this alone, she needed Ulmos help. It is true that the Silmarils increases the power but it is said too that the light of the trees is ensnared in Galadriels tresses.

"Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and *her hair was held a marvel unmatched*. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and *the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses*. *Many thought that this saying first gave to F?anor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils.* (So without Galadriel maybe no Silmarils?!?!) For F?anor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever."

If it?s really true that the light of the trees is ensnared in her tresses, than she has her own Silmaril and the divine light would give her her power.

"From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only F?anor. "

No one else is said to have this gift.

I really would like to know where this quote of Elwing comes from. I always thought that the most beautful is Luthien and then it is a tie between Arwen and Galadriel.


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 9, 2012)

Elrond did chose to be an elf. It was stated countless of times. He was addressed as Half Elven simply because that is the title of his family, because his father was also Earendil Half Elven. By the end of the third age the only ones who have not yet chosen to which kindred they would be counted are Elladan and Elrohir.


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## Nerwende (Nov 9, 2012)

Akabara Strauss said:


> Elrond did chose to be an elf. It was stated countless of times. He was addressed as Half Elven simply because that is the title of his family, because his father was also Earendil Half Elven. By the end of the third age the only ones who have not yet chosen to which kindred they would be counted are Elladan and Elrohir.



Exactly, thats what I?m saying. He is an elf of Typ halfelven, otheres are from Typ Noldor, Sindar or Vanya and regarding Elrond one could say Elf, Typ half elven.
Arwen is an elf, typ halfelven too, until she decides to be a mortal, but even then she would still be half elven.

But when Tolkien refers to the elves of the third age I believe it includes Elrond, Arwen and the twins, everything else would be niggling. Of course he could have said the elves and half elves of the third age, but that sounds dumb, then rather elves.

Whats with Dior, is he in Valinor or died he a mortal men and is beyond the circles of the world?


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## mcdave (Nov 9, 2012)

If he could choose i wouldn't think the Noldor statement would necessarilyinclude elrond. But even if it included him. Vilya >Nenya+ Elrodn was the better fighter greatest or most beautiful does not really matter.

Those superlative statement (wisest,fairest,mightiest)seems to contradict each other very often anyway from what i've heard. 
Just leave it with Galadriel wins


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## Reddan (Nov 9, 2012)

Akabara Strauss said:


> Elrond did chose to be an elf. It was stated countless of times. He was addressed as Half Elven simply because that is the title of his family, because his father was also Earendil Half Elven. By the end of the third age the only ones who have not yet chosen to which kindred they would be counted are Elladan and Elrohir.


 
Will address this first. It simply does not work like that. Elrond did not go through some magic transformation to make him an elf. The change was that his spirt (fea) would no longer leave the world. Elrond cannot change what he IS. He is an immortal Halfelven. Like Tuor was an immortal man, Luthien a mortal elf.


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## Akabara Strauss (Nov 9, 2012)

But for all intents and purposes Elrond is now counted as an elf. I know how it works man. And hey I'm acutally impressed by you knowledge of the verse, its just that the way we interpret things are different.


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## Reddan (Nov 9, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> Where is that quote from? I don?t know it. Then it is in conflict with the statement of Arwen being the most beuatiful after Luthien.
> but only after he wielded the Silmaril.


I am not aware of any quote that claims that Arwen is the fairest after Luthien. Can you please find me one. I do remember many quotes about her being the fairest left in Middle Earth and the image of Luthin returned.

The quote is from a passage Tolkien wrote called the Annals of Beleriand.


> Gimli would disagree and if she would really look like Luthien, then there would be no question for Gimli who is faier.


How does that make sense? Just, because they looked like each other does not mean they were equally as beautiful. There are many famous women, who have sisters that resemble them, but are not as pretty.

Anyway Gimli had a special devotion to Galadriel. Him apart everyone else such as Eomer, Gilraen and the text has Luthien as the most beautiful woman alive.


> I won?t disagree that he is the greater healer, but he had not the greatest forsight, that belnged to Cirdan.
> Here Tolkien states explicitly, that C?rdan “seeing further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth (…) must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.”


It looks like you are right about Cirdan, but can you give me when that quote was made. 



> I often read only this part ot the quote, but that is misleading, here is the complete quote.
> 
> "Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. *It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council.* Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. "
> 
> ...


That is one way of reading the text, but it does not seem to be the correct one. Galadriel was a Noldor and as much as we love them they had huge faults. All of them were power hungry and desired to rule their lands. Even the likes of Finrod and Galadriel. It is Galadriel we see have no this illusion of ruling the world. Elrond on the other hand has appeared modest.


> Again: "Galadriel, the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle-earth, was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or counsellor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit) but incapable of punitive action."
> "Unfinished Tales "The Istari"
> 
> So greater than Elrond IMHO, even if he wasn?t a full blood elf, doesn?t he belong to the Eldar, being decendant of Thingol?!!? Luthen was counted to the Eldar too, even if she wasn?t full blood elf.


No once again we have been over this. Tolkien goes through great pains to not identify any of the Half-elven as part of the Eldar. There is one passage where he kind of places Arwen as one, but he quickly corrects this.

In fact there are quite a few passages where Aragorn mentions how Elrond is the greatest and oldest of his RACE.

*Would that Elrond were here, for his the eldest of our race and has the greater power*

What race could he mean except the Half-Elven? 
Foresight and healing were special gifts that were passed through the line of Luthien.

Again Greater does not mean more powerful. Mightiest would mean more powerful, but that is not important since Elrond was not one of the Eldar.

Elrond is descendant from Thingol and Finwe (through Fingolfin), but you are right he traced his descent through Luthien, rather than his father's side. Off topic, but it is interesting that Elros traced his lineage through his father Earendil as did the Numenorean kings.



> Yes she is!
> "...In this he (Tolkien) emphasized the *commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor*, *the equal if unlike endowments of F?anor*; and it is said here that so far from joining in F?anor's revolt she was in every way opposed to him.
> Unfinished tales
> 
> I don?t invented that, it is a fact said by Tolkien in the unfinished tales.


I guess I was wrong here. However, it is still clear Feanor was both greater and mightier.


> Greatness and might!?!? Year, there might be a difference, but I think then Tolkien said someone was the greatest, then he was also the mightiest, spiritually and physically. Galadriel was physically strong too, in one version she defended her kin at Aqualonde.


No I agree with this wholeheartedly. Galadriel was a match for the athletes of Noldor. First of all the difference between elvish women and elvish men physically is much smaller than that of Men and Women. That apart Galadriel was named the Man-Woman. Since she was the tallest woman ever and was the height of many Noldor Lords.

Greatness and might are often linked, but they are not the same. For instance Maeglin rose to become the 2nd Greatest elf in Gondolin, but he was far from the second mightiest. 


> If Tolkien thought that Elrond would be the greatest ot the mightiest, I think he would have told so, but he never did, I believe he said that he was the greatest loremaster in ME. I have nothing against Elrond,but I think is widely acknowleged that Galadriel is his superiour, even if his ancestor was Melian.


Again I don't this is the case. Elrond is widely regarded as being the greatest loremaster, has the most powerful ring, the mightiest healer, a mighty warrior etc. In every passage that Elrond is introduced 'mighty' is used to describe him.


> She did that too and it was added that only Sauron could overcome her, so no army had a chance to enter her realm.


That's the thing. Elrond WAS fighting an army led by Sauron in person with the ONE RING. 


> But Elwing didn?t do this alone, she needed Ulmos help. It is true that the Silmarils increases the power but it is said too that the light of the trees is ensnared in Galadriels tresses.


The first time yes, but after that like Beren before her she learned to talk to the birds. Then like Luthien she was able to actually fly. This she did with her own power. The meeting of Elrond and Elwing in the skies was famous across the world.


> "Even among the Eldar she was accounted beautiful, and *her hair was held a marvel unmatched*. It was golden like the hair of her father and of her foremother Indis, but richer and more radiant, for its gold was touched by some memory of the starlike silver of her mother; and *the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses*. *Many thought that this saying first gave to F?anor the thought of imprisoning and blending the light of the Trees that later took shape in his hands as the Silmarils.* (So without Galadriel maybe no Silmarils?!?!) For F?anor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever."
> 
> If it?s really true that the light of the trees is ensnared in her tresses, than she has her own Silmaril and the divine light would give her her power.


NO.
You are correct that her hair did recall the image of the 2 Trees, but they cannot be compared to the power of a Silmaril. 

It WAS her hair that inspired Feanor to create the Silmarils. Again slightly off topic, but Feanor asked for a lock of her hair, but she refused. Thus Gimli's request being granted showed the special favour Galadriel had for him.

The Silmaril's had ALONE had enough power to give life back to the Two Trees. You are too keen to try and engineer some divine blood into Galadriel. It is just not supported in the text.  

"From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only F?anor. "


> I really would like to know where this quote of Elwing comes from. I always thought that the most beautful is Luthien and then it is a tie between Arwen and Galadriel.



No the most beautiful was easily Luthien and without doubt the next most beautiful was Dior. After that you can argue about who was next between Elwing and Earendil. Finally comes Arwen and then Galadriel. Apart from Gimli it was universally agreed Arwen was the fairest at the time.

Note that Dior and Elwing are both addressed as the Dior the Fair, Elwing the Fair or Dior the Beautiful. When you are singled out for such praise it means you stand out ie Elendil the tall.

The quote about Elwing comes from the Annals of Beleriand in the History's of Middle Eart V.


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## mcdave (Nov 9, 2012)

It is canon too that Elronds Ring > Galadriels. I mean wahtever we discuss in here she should be able to defeat Saruman.

Make a Elron vs Galadriel if you like :33


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## Reddan (Nov 9, 2012)

Akabara Strauss said:


> But for all intents and purposes Elrond is now counted as an elf. I know how it works man. And hey I'm acutally impressed by you knowledge of the verse, its just that the way we interpret things are different.



The thing is, Elrond is never counted amongst the elves nor are any of the Halfelven.

I have already provided the quote where Aragorn calls Elrond the oldest of HIS RACE. Now Elrond was NEVER a Numenorean, but he IS one of the Half-elven.

Here is Arwen's wedding.
*
and last came Master Elrond, mighty among both Elves and Men.*

When Frodo first meets him
*
He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among Elves and Men.*

We can even look at the Hobbit and see that Elrond is once again separated from the elves.

H*e was as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord.*

*"The master of the house was an elf-friend - one of those people whose fathers came into the strange stories before the beginning of History, the wars of the evil goblins and the elves and the first men in the North."*



Another example is how the sons of Elrond are separated from the elves. I know they had not made their decision, but they were still even more elvish than Elrond being over 3/4 elvish.

Legolas does not call them elvish Lords, but says they are like elvish lords.

*And have you marked the brethen Elladan and Ellrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and as gallant as Elven-Lords; and that is not to be wondered in the sons of Elrond.*


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## Nerwende (Nov 9, 2012)

mcdave said:


> It is canon too that Elronds Ring > Galadriels. I mean wahtever we discuss in here she should be able to defeat Saruman.
> 
> Make a Elron vs Galadriel if you like :33



In the LOTR Elronds ring is said to be the mightiest, but in another source Galadriels ring is said to be the chief ring. And it was said that she was Saurons chief obstacle, he didn?t said or thought that about Elrond, unless I missed something.
And Galadriel was the original bearer, Elrond got his ring from Gil Galad and it is said that the tree rings went to the three greatest elves of ME, Cirdan, Gil Galad and Galadriel.

That?s why I  think Galadriel is more powerful than Elrond (and the mightiest elf in the third age, as it is stated), she demonstrades her power much more than Elrond and is Feanors equal, alone that fact makes it impossible for Elrond to be her superior, then he would be equal of Feanor hinself.

I give in to the beauty-thing, but there is a difference to male beauty and female beauty, so in this aspect I leave the males out of the game (that would not be comparable). So that would be Luthien of course, then Elwing and then a tie between Arwen and Galadriel. I believe Tolkien intended them to be equally beautiful, therefore the morning evenning thing and even if Aragons mother meant Arwen the most beautiful, she can?t really juge that, for she never saw Galadriel.



> However, it is still clear Feanor was both greater and mightier.



I don?t understand why it is still clear that Feanor was greater and mightier. It was stated that Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor save Feanor MAYBE!!! It seems as if Tolkien wasn?t so sure himself, therefore the "maybe" and mighty was she too, for she was already a commanding stature in Valinor and was a leader in the rebellion.
Even after her return she was mightiy, "for Galadriel being mighty among the Eldar of Valinor obtained this grace for him (Gimli)" to enter the blessed realm.

I often read that people say that after her return she would be a nobody, seeking for forgiveness, but they are ignorant, she was already forgiven (for what actually, but that?s another matter) and the Valar honoured her even for her part in the destruction of Sauron. But that?s OT.



> I have already provided the quote where Aragorn calls Elrond the oldest of HIS RACE. Now Elrond was NEVER a Numenorean, but he IS one of the Half-elven.



Then that would mean that Aragon is himself a half elf, which he of course is not Aragon surely mean the oldest of the mortal race in part. Sure he is half elven, but he decided to be counted among the elves, so if someone talks about elves, the one talks about Elrond too, if someone talks about man the one is talking of Elros too. Everything else is nit picking IMO.



> and last came Master Elrond, mighty among both Elves and Men



Yes, mighty but not mightiest, I never said that he is not mighty and surely he has more impact on Man than Galadriel has, for they don?t know her and fear her, but all this doesn?t make him greatest or mightiest.



> Legolas does not call them elvish Lords, but says they are like elvish lords.
> 
> And have you marked the brethen Elladan and Ellrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others', and they are fair and as gallant as Elven-Lords; and that is not to be wondered in the sons of Elrond.



I don?t get it, Legolas said that they are elven lords, fair and gallant and they too are counted among elves, till they make their choice, this they can do cause they are half elven. I don?t get why it is bad or wrong to say that they are elves, all the half elves were first elves until they decided to become Man. That?s the way I read it.



> He was as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord



I don?t see the separation here, it is stated that he is noble and fair in face as an elf lord is supposed to be and he is an elf lord, I never read something about one half elf lord, that sounds silly, so either one in an elf lord or one if a lord of Man or something like that.


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## Reddan (Nov 9, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> In the LOTR Elronds ring is said to be the mightiest, but in another source Galadriels ring is said to be the chief ring. And it was said that she was Saurons chief obstacle, he didn?t said or thought that about Elrond, unless I missed something.


I am aware of that. That's why it is possible for many people to abuse quotes. However, Christopher Tolkien knew his father better than anyone. He had right to decide canon and he has written that his father would have stuck to what was printed in an official book he published. He points out the contradiction and gives the standard rule that if it appears in the LOTR then should be accepted over notes.


> That?s why I  think Galadriel is more powerful than Elrond (and the mightiest elf in the third age, as it is stated), she demonstrades her power much more than Elrond and is Feanors equal, alone that fact makes it impossible for Elrond to be her superior, then he would be equal of Feanor hinself.


I am not sure she does. Again you seem to think ignore how Elrond was fighting Sauron's army throughout most of the Second Age. Sauron had a special hatred for Luthien's line. Through out the ages they have been his great enemy that he has striven with. They have been his greatest enemies. 


> I give in to the beauty-thing, but there is a difference to male beauty and female beauty, so in this aspect I leave the males out of the game (that would not be comparable). So that would be Luthien of course, then Elwing and then a tie between Arwen and Galadriel. I believe Tolkien intended them to be equally beautiful, therefore the morning evenning thing and even if Aragons mother meant Arwen the most beautiful, she can?t really juge that, for she never saw Galadriel.


You assume that Gilraen never saw Galadriel, but this is an assumption. Gilraen spent a lot of time in Rivendell. Eomer agrees with her.




> I don?t understand why it is still clear that Feanor was greater and mightier. It was stated that Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor save Feanor MAYBE!!! It seems as if Tolkien wasn?t so sure himself, therefore the "maybe" and mighty was she too, for she was already a commanding stature in Valinor and was a leader in the rebellion.
> Even after her return she was mightiy, "for Galadriel being mighty among the Eldar of Valinor obtained this grace for him (Gimli)" to enter the blessed realm.


It's clear, because Feanor is OUTRIGHT said to be the mightiest of the Noldor. At his death we have it plainly said.

*Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came their greatest reknown and their most grievous woe.*

*M?riel's death was of free will: she forsook her body and her f?a went to the Halls of Waiting, while her body lay as if asleep in a garden. She said that she was weary in body and spirit and desired peace. The cause of her weariness she believed to be the bearing of F?anor, great in mind and body beyond the measure of the Eldar*

Feanor was a strange exception amongst the elves when it came to power. He is repeatedly called the mightiest and his birth took out everything from Miriel.


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## Reddan (Nov 9, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> I often read that people say that after her return she would be a nobody, seeking for forgiveness, but they are ignorant, she was already forgiven (for what actually, but that?s another matter) and the Valar honoured her even for her part in the destruction of Sauron. But that?s OT.


I have not heard this before and it is certainly not the case. That being said even at the time of LOTR she was unsure if her ban had been lifted. Her defining moment was when she rejected the ring.


> Then that would mean that Aragon is himself a half elf, which he of course is not Aragon surely mean the oldest of the mortal race in part. Sure he is half elven, but he decided to be counted among the elves, so if someone talks about elves, the one talks about Elrond too, if someone talks about man the one is talking of Elros too. Everything else is nit picking IMO.


Tolkien was a perfectionist and little details like this mattered to him. 

What Aragorn is referring to more than elf/man is that they come from Luthien. This is the key. The powers he has come from Luthian and that is why Elrond is the eldest of the race. He is the eldest of those, who have the blood of Melian.


> Yes, mighty but not mightiest, I never said that he is not mighty and surely he has more impact on Man than Galadriel has, for they don?t know her and fear her, but all this doesn?t make him greatest or mightiest.


No you misunderstand what the statement means. It is not a reference to his status amongst elves and men. It is a references to his dual heritage as one of the Half-elven.


> I don?t get it, Legolas said that they are elven lords, fair and gallant and they too are counted among elves, till they make their choice, this they can do cause they are half elven. I don?t get why it is bad or wrong to say that they are elves, all the half elves were first elves until they decided to become Man. That?s the way I read it.


No Legolas said they are fair *AS* Elf Lords. This differentiates them from Elf Lords. The same thing was said about Aragorn when he and Arwen were betrothed. The use of the word *AS* means it is a simile. 

Not to mention the Sons of Elrond fear the ghost, but the Elf Legolas does not. This again shows that they are Half-Elven


> I don?t see the separation here, it is stated that he is noble and fair in face as an elf lord is supposed to be and he is an elf lord, I never read something about one half elf lord, that sounds silly, so either one in an elf lord or one if a lord of Man or something like that.


No once again a simile is used. If he was an Elf Lord then Tolkien would say he WAS a fair Elf Lord. Similar language is used about Aragorn and Turin, who resemble elf lords.

EDIT
We can go on all day about who was stronger between Galadriel and Elrond.  I personally don't think there is definitive evidence for either choice unlike the case of say Galadriel and Finrod or Aragorn and Boromir.

One thing I am very sure of is Elrond was never placed as one of the Eldar, he always remained as an immortal Half-elven much like Arwen and Elros remained mortal Half-elven.


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## Nerwende (Nov 9, 2012)

> I am aware of that. That's why it is possible for many people to abuse quotes. However, Christopher Tolkien knew his father better than anyone. He had right to decide canon and he has written that his father would have stuck to what was printed in an official book he published. He points out the contradiction and gives the standard rule that if it appears in the LOTR then should be accepted over notes.



Nevertheless he was not the original bearer so it was pure coincidence that he got the greatest ring, would Galadriel have died and not Gil Galad he would probably have gotten Nenya. 



> Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came their greatest reknown and their most grievous woe.



I believe he wrote that very early in the tale but Galadriels status and greatness emerged only slowly, at the time he wrote that Galadriel maybe even didn?t existed. I believe she first entered the tale 	 approximately at 1950!?!?
 First Feanor was the fairest and most valinat too and later Tolkien decided that Finarfin was the fairest of the princes and Fingolfin the most valinat or something like that. 
He often changed his mind and maybe he intended Galadriels ring really to be the chief ring, Christpher, the most time is not so sure himself what his fathers last word was on an issue like the parentage of Gil Galad he said that he was son of turgon but he was son of Orodreth of the line of Finarfin, he later admited. (That would make Galadriel rightful Queen of the Noldor after Gil Galads death)

When he wrote that, Galadriel probably wasn?t the mightiest couse she didn?t exist and even if he wrote that later then I see no problem too, the mightiest of the Noldor died and left Galadriel as a close second.

Why is it so different to accept that Galadriel is with Feanor together the greatest and mightiest of the Noldor. First there was Feanor alone but then Tolkien invented Galadriel and she grew to be more and more important to Tolkien, is that because she?s a women?!!?



> Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except F?anor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.





> These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.





> A wholly different story, adumbrated but never told, of Galadriel's conduct at the time of the rebellion of the Noldor appears in a very late and partly illegible note: the last writing of my father's on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life. In this he emphasized the commanding stature of Galadriel already in Valinor, the equal if unlike endowments of F?anor; and it is said here that so far from joining in F?anor's revolt she was in every way opposed to him.



All this quotes should leave no doubts regarding her greatness, might and her equal status with Feanor. If Feanor was a freak in might, then Galadriel was too. They had similar charakter traits, were proud (but she was wiser, that was her luck) and both were brilliant in their own way.

I will go searing for Elrond references, I fond my first:



> In Middle-earth dwelt also Gil-galad the High King, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be *numbered among the Eldar*


 So if we talk about the Eldar, Elrond is included and when Galadriel is said to be the greatest of the surviving Eldar then she is superiour to Elrond.

I find it quite interesting, the matter with Elrond, maybe I?ll find more.

Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath - Chapter 24


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## Reddan (Nov 9, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> Nevertheless he was not the original bearer so it was pure coincidence that he got the greatest ring, would Galadriel have died and not Gil Galad he would probably have gotten Nenya.


This is not how he gained the mightiest ring. Celebrimbor gave Nenya to Galadriel very early on and she then gave the Elessar to Celebrian. 

Later Celebrimbor gave both the other rings to Gil-galad the High King. Gil-galad then decided to give Vilya to Elrond long, long before his death. Again it is interesting that he gave the mightiest ring to Elrond, whilst he gave the lesser ring to Cirdan.

Elrond is left alone in Imladris defending it against Sauron himself. Sauron in Person is leading his forces against Elrond.

The last word on the subject also seems to have Galdriel and Celeborn both dwelling under Elrond in Rivendell for long periods of the Second Age.


> I believe he wrote that very early in the tale but Galadriels status and greatness emerged only slowly, at the time he wrote that Galadriel maybe even didn?t existed. I believe she first entered the tale 	 approximately at 1950!?!?
> First Feanor was the fairest and most valinat too and later Tolkien decided that Finarfin was the fairest of the princes and Fingolfin the most valinat or something like that.
> He often changed his mind and maybe he intended Galadriels ring really to be the chief ring, Christpher, the most time is not so sure himself what his fathers last word was on an issue like the parentage of Gil Galad he said that he was son of turgon but he was son of Orodreth of the line of Finarfin, he later admited. (That would make Galadriel rightful Queen of the Noldor after Gil Galads death)


This is true. Galadriel's role grew greatly in the story, but things still have to fit with others. One of the reasons Tolkien took so long writing the Silmarillion is that he wanted the world to logically and philosophically make sense. 

Galadriel's role and power grew, but I don't think it ever reached the same raw power as Feanor. Nor do I think Tolkien could easily fit this into the story. Feanor was an unusual elvish birth, who drained his mother of all her power. Earendil was the anointed saviour of the Middle Earth. Glorfindel heroically saving the saviour had his powers greatly enhanced. Then Luthien and her descendants have divine ancestry. 

It is a bit like the case with Turin. There seems little doubt, that Tolkien planned for Turin to become back and be the decisive factor in the defeat of Morgoth, whether it be killing the Valar personally or defeating his greatest and most powerful servant Ancalagon the Black. However, he never found a way to fit this into the story and UNLESS Christoper Tolkien decides to give a definitive statement, like with Galadriel we have to go by his earlier versions.


> When he wrote that, Galadriel probably wasn?t the mightiest couse she didn?t exist and even if he wrote that later then I see no problem too, the mightiest of the Noldor died and left Galadriel as a close second.
> 
> Why is it so different to accept that Galadriel is with Feanor together the greatest and mightiest of the Noldor. First there was Feanor alone but then Tolkien invented Galadriel and she grew to be more and more important to Tolkien, is that because she?s a women?!!?


I have no problem with Galadriel being the second mightiest and greatest of the Noldor. Nor with her being mightier than the likes of Fingolfin, Finrod, Maedhros etc.

Galadriel being a woman has nothing to do with it. Since Luthien is without the most powerful of the Eldar for me. 

As pointed out the problem is there is NO LOGICAL reason for Galadriel to be as mighty as Feanor. Feanor's strength is attributed to his mother giving him TOO much of her power in birth that she lost the will to live. 

The issue at hand is how could Galadriel come close to that level of power? In every other situation he has given us detailed reasons. 

As I said before Galadriel being more powerful than Fingolfin, Fingon, Gil-galad etc is easily accepted and requires little to be changed. 


> All this quotes should leave no doubts regarding her greatness, might and her equal status with Feanor. If Feanor was a freak in might, then Galadriel was too. They had similar charakter traits, were proud (but she was wiser, that was her luck) and both were brilliant in their own way.


One thing about Tolkien is MIGHT and GREATNESS are not one and the same. There are no quotes saying she was as MIGHTY as he was.

Tolkien is not the kind of author to just be content with Galadriel being a freak in terms of power. Even Melian a Maiar marrying Thingol, is allowed, because Eru desired for the divine strain of the Maia to enter that of the elves and men.

Even some thing as obvious as Tuor being given immortality caused him to stress over the logical reason for such a thing.


> I will go searing for Elrond references, I fond my first:
> 
> So if we talk about the Eldar, Elrond is included and when Galadriel is said to be the greatest of the surviving Eldar then she is superiour to Elrond.
> 
> ...



That is a quote, which actually does not support your position on Elrond. It shows Elrond was different from the Eldar, but merely had their lifespan.


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## Nerwende (Nov 10, 2012)

I really don?t understand what is so difficult about accepting Galadriels status among the elves. He said several times that she is in par with Feanor. If he said that one time, one could argue that her made a mistake. But what Tolkien says is fact, especially if he says it several times. It leaves no doubt how Tolkien saw her and I want to see Tolkiens word how he saw it and don?t want to be influenced by my own preferences.

I?m really not too impressed with his view on Elwing being the most beautiful save Luthien but he said so and apparently never changed his opinion.

I agree that it would be difficult to decide what?s the right version regarding Galadriel, if she was a leader in the rebellion or left separatly, but that has nothing to do with her status.
Already in the Silmarilion she was remarkable as she "stood tall and valiant among the contending princes.

One could stay with the version of the Silmarillion and just add the facts written in the UT, History of ME and the letters regarding her equal status with Feanor, her commanding presence and the fact that she was with Feanor the greatest of elves of Valinor, it would fit perfectly.

As for Miriel dying while giving birth to Feanor, I see no reason for that being an indicator that Galadriel can not be as powerful than him. I see Miriels case was extraordinary but Galadriel has enough inherent power on her own (as seen in LOTR) and was more intelligent than most other elves, at least no other elf is recorded to be "brilliant in mind and swift in action" like she was.

I don?t know what he intended to do with Turin but it is pretty clear that he tried over the years to increase Galadriel status and he wanted to make it "canon", see Unfinished tales of Numeor and Middle-Earth:



> This story, withdrawing Galadriel from all association with the rebellion of Feanor, even to the extent of giving her a separate departure from Aman, is profoundly at variance with all that is said elsewhere. It arose from "philosophical" (rather than "historical" considerations, concerning the precise nature of Galadriels disobedience in Valinor at the one hand, and her status and power in middle-Earth on the other. *That it would have entailed a good deal of alteration  in the narrative of the Silmarillion is evident; but that my father doubtless intended to do.* It may be noted here that Galadriel did not appear in the original story of the rebellion and the flight of the Noldor, which existed long before she did; and also of course that after her entry in the stories of the first age her actions could still be transformed radically, since the Silmarillion had not been published



If now you are still not convinced, then the discussion is futile. 

Tolkien wanted to make the "new" Galadriel "canon" but hadn?t the time to do.


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## mcdave (Nov 10, 2012)

> Tolkien wanted to make the "new" Galadriel "canon" but hadn?t the time to do.


Fanfiction then


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## Nerwende (Nov 10, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Fanfiction then



Fanfiction is when a fan writes something! If I write that Galadriel was in reality a Valar, then it is fanfiction in this case it is an alternate concept or the true story if you like.


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## I3igAl (Nov 10, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> Fanfiction is when a fan writes *porn! If I write that Galadriel and Saruman had some weird fetish sex involving the Teletubbies,* then it is fanfiction in this case it is an alternate concept or the true story if you like.



Just adding the true nature as fanfiction.


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## mcdave (Nov 10, 2012)

> in this case it is an alternate concept or the true story if you like.


Thats exactly what i would call fanfiction. You can't rewrite the canon


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## Tranquil Fury (Nov 10, 2012)

Tolkien intended to write it, that's not fanfiction if the person behind LOTR wanted it.The comparison is wrong.


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## Nerwende (Nov 10, 2012)

mcdave said:


> Thats exactly what i would call fanfiction. You can't rewrite the canon



Then would be the question what is canon in Tolkiens works?!?! 

The Silmarillon he didn?t wrote himself?

Or have his letters more weight, or the Silmarillion his son wrote with his fathers notes? (Even there he made mistakes, Gil Galads parentage for example) or the unfinished tales or the oldest work, the history of Middle Earth?

I include all sources, the older ones and the newer ones, in which Galadriels power increased.

Only because he wasn?t able anymore to finish Galadriels story and leave the notes so that his son could use them for the Silmarillion, does that mean that we should dismiss everything he has written on that matter? 

Like earlier was stated he doubles intended to publish his "refreshed" view on Galadriel and if Christopher says that, I believe him.


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## Reddan (Nov 10, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> I really don?t understand what is so difficult about accepting Galadriels status among the elves. He said several times that she is in par with Feanor. If he said that one time, one could argue that her made a mistake. But what Tolkien says is fact, especially if he says it several times. It leaves no doubt how Tolkien saw her and I want to see Tolkiens word how he saw it and don?t want to be influenced by my own preferences.


You have not found one quote saying Galadriel was as mighty as Feanor. Not one. 


> I?m really not too impressed with his view on Elwing being the most beautiful save Luthien but he said so and apparently never changed his opinion.


Again this makes sense. Elwing is the great granddaughter of Melian.


> I agree that it would be difficult to decide what?s the right version regarding Galadriel, if she was a leader in the rebellion or left separatly, but that has nothing to do with her status.
> Already in the Silmarilion she was remarkable as she "stood tall and valiant among the contending princes.


Again there is not one quote saying she was as Mighty as Feanor or the mightiest of the Noldor. All the quotes talk about her greatness. Greatness is more about achievements and status rather than power when used by Tolkien.

I have already given you the example of the Maeglin, who was not more powerful than either Ecthelion or Glorfindelm, but was mightier.


> One could stay with the version of the Silmarillion and just add the facts written in the UT, History of ME and the letters regarding her equal status with Feanor, her commanding presence and the fact that she was with Feanor the greatest of elves of Valinor, it would fit perfectly.


Again you fail to note that she had equal status, but NOT EQUAL POWER. She appears to have taken Fingolfin's spot as Feanor's great rival, but not even Fingolfin was Feanor's equal in power. No elf was. Even in LOTR Gandalf wishes to look back in time so he can see the *UNIMAGINABLE* hand of Feanor at work. Manwe considered the marring of Feanor as one of the greatest losses.


> As for Miriel dying while giving birth to Feanor, I see no reason for that being an indicator that Galadriel can not be as powerful than him. I see Miriels case was extraordinary but Galadriel has enough inherent power on her own (as seen in LOTR) and was more intelligent than most other elves, at least no other elf is recorded to be "brilliant in mind and swift in action" like she was.


Miriel did not die in child birth. In POME, he goes into detail how elves parents pass some of their power into their children. This is why it was rare for Elvish families to be big. With Miriel she passed enough power, that would have nourish several children into Feanor alone and was left drained. This was a unique situation that only ever occurred once.

Galadriel's status grew, but even then it is hard to place one what she did.  However, even in his latest writings he never elevated her power to the status of Feanor.
If you want to look at when Tolkien is talking about pure ability then he will use the word mighty.

For instance Maglor was the mightiest singer; so he was the best.
Earendil was the mightiest mariner; so he was the ebst.


> I don?t know what he intended to do with Turin but it is pretty clear that he tried over the years to increase Galadriel status and he wanted to make it "canon", see Unfinished tales of Numeor and Middle-Earth:


It's the same thing. He wanted to make it cannon, but could not find a way to work it into the story.


> If now you are still not convinced, then the discussion is futile.
> 
> Tolkien wanted to make the "new" Galadriel "canon" but hadn?t the time to do.


Even the 'new' Galadriel w as never said to be as mighty as Feanor. Rivals do not have to be equals in power. Fingolfin and Feanor were great rivals, but Feanor always had the greater power. 

I was only saying if he had lived longer then he 'may' have tried to increase Galadriel's power further. If he did this though, he would struggle to fit things in the story.

As things stand the new Galadriel works fine. She was the strongest of the elves with normal destinies surpassing the likes of Fingon, Maedhros, Cirdan, Fingolfin etc.

However, Children of Luthien, Feanor and resurrected Glorfindel were special cases.


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## Nerwende (Nov 10, 2012)

> Again you fail to note that she had equal status, but NOT EQUAL POWER. She appears to have taken Fingolfin's spot as Feanor's great rival, but not even Fingolfin was Feanor's equal in power. No elf was.



"the equal if unlike in endowments of F?anor"

Where does it says that they don?t have equal power?!?! I read nothing about status too (maybe I wrote status, I didn?t thought about that) For me that means that they match powerwise too. She is not his equal in greatness, she is his equal overall, they had just different talents.

She had the ability to perceive minds and a marvellous gift of insight, while Feanor had marvellous gifts of craftmanship and invention, but where does it say that one needs more power to invent something and Galadriel needs for her stuff less power!?!? Of course the Silmarils shaped the fate f the world and are that much more important, but that?s not the point here.

Must there be an explanation on why she is is eual and as powerful as him?!?! If Tolkien wants it, than he doesn?t has to explain it. Sure her birth was not as dramatic as Feanors but who knows how much power Earwen invested in her ;-)



> However, Children of Luthien, Feanor and resurrected Glorfindel were special cases.



I agree with Luthien but not her children, so Arwen and her Kids and Aragon are stronger than her?!!? Don?t think so. Same with Glorfindel



> A queen she was of the woodland elves, wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the *mightiest* and fairest of *all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth*." -- The Silmarillion, "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age



even if you say Elrond wasn?t an elf (which IMO he was, typ half - elven, he decided to be an elf) Glorfindel is absolutely one, even after he returned, Galadriel was mightier than him, even if he is said to be *almost* the equal of the Maiar, almost, not compleatly, certainly spiritually she was stronger, the witch king feared her, (did he fear Glorfindel) physically dunno but being mighty does not mean having big muscles .

I have the impression that Galadriel is *almost* the equal of a maiar more than glorfindel, in all what she does. What does Glorfinel?!?! I know he drove away the Nazgul ( what is really impressive, I don?t wanna say something bad about Glorfinel)but I assume Galadriel could that do.
 She lifed in both words too, and is mighty among the seen and unseen, something like that Gandalf said and that have all Calaquendi in common.
 Now you could say that he slew a Balrog, but that was before he was almost the equal of a maiar, maybe Galadriel could slay a Balrog too, she just has to make sure she has still some armor in her wardrobe.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 10, 2012)

I would say Elrond being more powerful than Galadriel smacks of BS at least based on feats..word of god says otherwise but when word of god contradicts feats then it's not valid

as to Feanor vs Galadriel..she got up in his face but I have no doubt he would have bent her over and plowed her if it came to a fight...she would have put up a good fight but he would have torn her to pieces...

she was wiser, she had more common sense and she had balls (then again he had insanity and balls so) obviously she was more mentally stable but that's it

as for personal power..one of these two captured the divine light of god in his gems when your that skilled you have no equal among your race


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## Reddan (Nov 10, 2012)

Nerwende said:


> "the equal if unlike in endowments of F?anor"
> Where does it says that they don?t have equal power?!?! I read nothing about status too (maybe I wrote status, I didn?t thought about that) For me that means that they match powerwise too. She is not his equal in greatness, she is his equal overall, they had just different talents.


In all the text, where it says Feanor was the mightiest of the Noldor etc. Then there are other text where Feanor's power is compared to Maia. Even Gandalf is impressed with his power.


> She had the ability to perceive minds and a marvellous gift of insight, while Feanor had marvellous gifts of craftmanship and invention, but where does it say that one needs more power to invent something and Galadriel needs for her stuff less power!?!? Of course the Silmarils shaped the fate f the world and are that much more important, but that?s not the point here.


It's not about how they used their power, but the extent of it. Feanor had feats of power that was matching those of the Maia. Feanor was constantly referred to as the mightiest. 


> Must there be an explanation on why she is is eual and as powerful as him?!?! If Tolkien wants it, than he doesn?t has to explain it. Sure her birth was not as dramatic as Feanors but who knows how much power Earwen invested in her ;-)


That's not the way Tolkien works. There MUST be an explanation for things. His world whilst a created world, he wanted it to be real. 


> I agree with Luthien but not her children, so Arwen and her Kids and Aragon are stronger than her?!!? Don?t think so. Same with Glorfindel


There is obviously a limit. Aragorn  is something like 63 generations removed from Elros alone. Yet he still has healing powers just from her. All the magic the Numenoreans could do such as the swords made to kill the Witch King comes from Melian. 

You also seem to be underestimating Arwen's power. She was Queen of the West. Every elf left in Middle Earth, which would include even Celeborn and Thranduril acknowledged her as the Queen of all Elves. She was the one, who had the insight to try and arrange for Frodo to go into the West.

As for Glorfindel as Tolkien said himself he is a unique case. Glorfindel even before his initial death was a powerful Elf Lord. As powerful as Galadriel? No. However, his death was a special one. He had the honour of dying to save Earendil. This special circumstance led to his reward. Ecthelion for instance, who too died heroically against Gothmog, the mightiest of the Balrogs, was not given the same level of reward. 


> even if you say Elrond wasn?t an elf (which IMO he was, typ half - elven, he decided to be an elf) Glorfindel is absolutely one, even after he returned, Galadriel was mightier than him, even if he is said to be *almost* the equal of the Maiar, almost, not compleatly, certainly spiritually she was stronger, the witch king feared her, (did he fear Glorfindel) physically dunno but being mighty does not mean having big muscles .
> 
> I have the impression that Galadriel is *almost* the equal of a maiar more than glorfindel, in all what she does. What does Glorfinel?!?! I know he drove away the Nazgul ( what is really impressive, I don?t wanna say something bad about Glorfinel)but I assume Galadriel could that do.
> She lifed in both words too, and is mighty among the seen and unseen, something like that Gandalf said and that have all Calaquendi in common.
> Now you could say that he slew a Balrog, but that was before he was almost the equal of a maiar, maybe Galadriel could slay a Balrog too, she just has to make sure she has still some armor in her wardrobe.


You think Galadriel was almost equal to a Maiar, but based on what? Do you really think Galadriel was close to the power of Gandalf the White, Sauron or Melian or even Luthien? If you do then you need to look at the text again.

Elrond and Galadriel are both so far below Sauron for instance, that even if they had the One Ring they would be unlikely to defeat him in combat.

When it comes to power to match the more prominent Maia I think the evidence and quotes only support 4 examples. Luthien, Feanor and Earendil were born with such power. Glorfindel was given it after his part in saving Earendil.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Nov 10, 2012)

the ultimate fanboy vs a downplayer

interesting


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