# Full Powered Orochimaru vs Itachi



## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

Area: Kn4 vs Orochimaru
Knowledge: Full for Oro, None for Itachi
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Izanami
Distance: 25 Meters

Oro is full powered as he was during the War Arc. Itachi is fully healthy

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## KiNGPiN (Jun 10, 2016)

Unlike the other Sannin (mainly Jiraiya), Orochimaru doesn't have the necessary tools to deal with genjutsu, which happens to be Itachi's most potent weapon. Also, unlike Jiraiya, Orochimaru is not equipped with strong jutsu lethal enough to break through V3 Susano'o and Yata Mirror. However, Prime Orochimaru was "said" to be stronger than Jiraiya and, as the manga has showed clearly, Jiraiya is equal to Itachi. Nevertheless, I'd say Itachi wins more times than not.

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

I agree with your genjutsu point. However if he summons Minato and Tobirama Itachi might be fucked.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ARGUS (Jun 10, 2016)

Totsuka one shots 
Tsukuyomi one shots 

Itachi shits on him the 3rd time

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 10, 2016)

If Orochimaru can use Sage Mode, then he might have a shot, but if not, Itachi beats the shit out of him again.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 10, 2016)

Kabuto who was greater than oro as far as skills were concerned and had extensive knowledge on his genjutsu felt he needed to be blind to fight itachi. That's just how likely it is for him to catch you in a illusion. Oro would need a fanfic scenario or a entirely new fighting style to cater to itachi's hax.

So here unless oro can hide someplace and let the edos do his fighting for him then oro will get embarrassed again. Totsuka discourage the use of any monster forms since they are just big targets to get sucked up.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Turrin (Jun 10, 2016)

We never saw Orochimaru fight in the war-arc so we don't know what he was capable off w/ his new Zetsu body. So to me it's impossible to say, but I'd guess that Itachi still wins as it's a little too soon for Orochimaru to have really improved all that much thanx to Hashirama's DNA. Given him a few months or years to master that power and than the outcome could be different.


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## Clowe (Jun 10, 2016)

Itachi wins for the 3rd time, how many times does Orochimaru need to be humilliated?

He's not going to win unless he starts with ET prepped and ready.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 10, 2016)

Orochimaru with Manda, Aoda, Edo Minato, Edo Tobirama, and Edo Hiruzen will wipe Itachi out of existence. Let's not kid ourselves folks, Itachi sure as hell ain't beating this version of Orochimaru regardless of his Mokuton potential. Even without Edo Tensei, since he isn't in a weakened state like he was in literally every single scenario that he "fought" Itachi, and there is no PIS and CIS involved, he will have no problem. With full knowledge, Orochimaru uses Doton to go underground. He then summons and unleashes Manda and Aoda from beneath Itachi to gang up on him alongside Mandara no Jin (all wielding Kusanagi) which spells Itachi's certain defeat. He isn't outrunning them, Manda can counter Amaterasu by shedding his skin and then burrowing underground to do the same thing. Aoda has been called Manda's equal in DB4, so he logically should be able to do the exact same thing. As giant snakes, they can detect their prey with their tongues so their eyes won't be necessary. So then there's no Tsukuyomi or Sharingan: Genjutsu, so Itachi will have to use Susanoo to defeat them and by that time Mandara no Jin will have got him or the extended Kusanagi will pierce him from below.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 10, 2016)

_Defense for Orochimaru:_
*
Sharingan Genjutsu/Tsukyomi*: Manda can keep Orochimaru out of range. ET are immune to Genjutsu. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact. Knowledge is full for him after all.
*Amaterasu*: Oral Rebirth
*Susanoo*: Mandara No Jin + ET + Underground attack with the blade of Kusanagi.
Or 
Manda + Pt. 1 ET Hashirama & Tobirama.

_Offense for Orochimaru_:

*Manda: *
Manda is a lot larger than Itachis Susanoo and will not be affected by Totsukas minor scratches. If Itachi tries to seal Manda with Totsuka, which is quite the feat, ET Hashi & Tobi attack Susanoo weak spots. Orochimaru.. watches.

*Edit Tensei: *Part 1 ET Hashirama & Tobirama aren't all that strong, but their abilities will bring a lot to this battle. Hashiramas wood style should be able to get Itachi out of Susanoo and keep him moving around. Which is good for Orochimaru since he's going to want to avoid CQC. Tobirama can counter fire style Jutsu which would just be tanked anyway. 

Itachis Dilemma:
If Itachi tries to seal Manda he has Orochimaru, Hashirama & Tobirama as opponents. If he tries to seal Hashirama he has Tobirama, Manda & Orochimaru as opponents. You see ?? 


I could get way way way more into it but I'll just leave it at this until someone counters.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 10, 2016)

Totsuka no Tsurugi or Tsukuyomi still means Orochimaru getting oneshotted by Itachi. Again.


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## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

@IzayaOrihara this is your kind of thread. What's your take? I'm guessing with Oro, right? I actually think he wins in this scenario


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 10, 2016)

Matty said:


> @IzayaOrihara this is your kind of thread. What's your take? I'm guessing with Oro, right? I actually think he wins in this scenario



In this version it's leaning towards Orochimaru way too much. With ET Hiruzen/Tobirama/Minato at his disposal, he can literally finish this low difficulty.

@IzayaOrihara keeps it with part 1 ET only. With Manga knowledge.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 10, 2016)

Also, as for all mods. Please don't lock this thread, we aren't discussing the usual Orochimaru vs. Itachi match-up. This is different compared to before, this variant of Orochimaru has never faced Itachi.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Itachi san88 (Jun 10, 2016)

Itachi wins again, mid diff at most. Oro wins only if he starts with ET.


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## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

With full knowledge I don't see why he doesn't go right for it


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 10, 2016)

Matty said:


> Area: Kn4 vs Orochimaru
> Knowledge: Full for Oro, None for Itachi
> Mindset: IC
> Restrictions: Izanami
> ...


Oh jesus
War Arc Orochimaru is overkill


Matty said:


> I agree with your genjutsu point. However if he summons Minato and Tobirama Itachi might be fucked.


Like he needs them to win
Orochimaru without Edos is > Jiraiya > Itachi



Clowe said:


> Itachi wins for the 3rd time, how many times does Orochimaru need to be humilliated?
> 
> He's not going to win unless he starts with ET prepped and ready.


It's just sad the way different characters are percieved here



ARGUS said:


> Totsuka one shots
> Tsukuyomi one shots
> 
> Itachi shits on him the 3rd time


And to believe you said you were not biased?
Well that was a complete lie.
Orochi has counters. I'm not gonna explain it here. I've done it 100s of times. Ill explain it at another time when I open up my own threads.



UchihaX28 said:


> If Orochimaru can use Sage Mode, then he might have a shot, but if not, Itachi beats the shit out of him again.


Really?



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Kabuto who was greater than oro as far as skills were concerned and had extensive knowledge on his genjutsu felt he needed to be blind to fight itachi. That's just how likely it is for him to catch you in a illusion. Oro would need a fanfic scenario or a entirely new fighting style to cater to itachi's hax.
> 
> So here unless oro can hide someplace and let the edos do his fighting for him then oro will get embarrassed again. Totsuka discourage the use of any monster forms since they are just big targets to get sucked up.


Oh wow .....



Turrin said:


> We never saw Orochimaru fight in the war-arc so we don't know what he was capable off w/ his new Zetsu body. So to me it's impossible to say, but I'd guess that Itachi still wins as it's a little too soon for Orochimaru to have really improved all that much thanx to Hashirama's DNA. Given him a few months or years to master that power and than the outcome could be different.





Itachi san88 said:


> Itachi wins again, mid diff at most. Oro wins only if he starts with ET.


I'm guessing Itachi is your favourite character?

Oh lord ....



Isaiah13000 said:


> Orochimaru with Manda, Aoda, Edo Minato, Edo Tobirama, and Edo Hiruzen will wipe Itachi out of existence. Let's not kid ourselves folks, Itachi sure as hell ain't beating this version of Orochimaru regardless of his Mokuton potential. Even without Edo Tensei, since he isn't in a weakened state like he was in literally every single scenario that he "fought" Itachi, and there is no PIS and CIS involved, he will have no problem. With full knowledge, Orochimaru uses Doton to go underground. He then summons and unleashes Manda and Aoda from beneath Itachi to gang up on him alongside Mandara no Jin (all wielding Kusanagi) which spells Itachi's certain defeat. He isn't outrunning them, Manda can counter Amaterasu by shedding his skin and then burrowing underground to do the same thing. Aoda has been called Manda's equal in DB4, so he logically should be able to do the exact same thing. As giant snakes, they can detect their prey with their tongues so their eyes won't be necessary. So then there's no Tsukuyomi or Sharingan: Genjutsu, so Itachi will have to use Susanoo to defeat them and by that time Mandara no Jin will have got him or the extended Kusanagi will pierce him from below.


It's pointless to argue with these people .. they dont know reason

Orochi doesnt even need Mokuton/War Arc ET to beat Itachi

But these people think Orochimaru with no arms/no killing intent/unhealthy/not fighting = Orochimaru with arms/killing intent/healthy/fighting

They think Itachi is stronger than Nagato

Just leave it. I might still release the essays I was going to, but Itachi-fanboyism is clearly encouraged on this forum. Even the mods like @Kai encourage it.

I don't see the point in debating this thread

Everyone so far has said "Orochi gets his ass kicked". They think Itachi can kick the ass of someone stronger than a man he cannot defeat.

They dont know the difference between No Killing intent/Not actually fighting Orochimaru and Sick/Armless/Immobile , and a full powered one.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> _Defense for Orochimaru:_
> *
> Sharingan Genjutsu/Tsukyomi*: Manda can keep Orochimaru out of range. ET are immune to Genjutsu. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact. Knowledge is full for him after all.
> *Amaterasu*: Oral Rebirth
> ...


This thread is War Arc Orochimaru. You know, @Matty thinks Itachi stands a chance against War Arc Orochimaru lol, but anyway, your response on Prime Orochimaru (as in, the pre-Zetsu body one i talk about all the time) was good.



Raikiri19 said:


> Totsuka no Tsurugi or Tsukuyomi still means Orochimaru getting oneshotted by Itachi. Again.


Because Orochimaru is immobile here like he was in Yamata, and he has no counter for brain damage .....

Anyway, until tomorrow when I release my own essays, I'll just sit this one out.

As you can see, @Kai locking down my threads in favour of the Itachi wankdom has only fuelled them more. Well done mods. And to believe he didn't even have the courtesy to tell me why I locked those threads, when I asked him like 6 times.

All of you at some point would have been in a thread or a conversation that contained some form of essay as to why Prime Orochimaru (the guy in ) is stronger than Itachi Uchiha (the same one we are talking about here) but no one cares to read my arguments. All they know how to do is wank. Shame isn't it.

At the end of the day, I put a lot of time into these essays so i'm still gonna release them tomorrow (that's when I intended to, then shockingly saw this spite thread), but after that, even if you people think Itachi > Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Hiruzen and Prime Orochimaru, I dont care. My essay is solid. @HandfullofNaruto and @Isaiah13000 agreed with me. The former read my essays and the latter read my post in a different thread. None of them carry bias for Itachi and/or bias against the Sannin in general, so their opinion means more to me than anyone elses, as the rest of you (most of) carry bias for Itachi, as is clearly illustrated in your responses.



Matty said:


> @IzayaOrihara this is your kind of thread. What's your take? I'm guessing with Oro, right? I actually think he wins in this scenario


As you can see, the OP you made must state Orochimaru is immobile and has no chakra (i'm drunk right now so i cant see the OP properly) - i mean, it must say that right? Since people are saying Totsuka and Tsukuyomi ends the fight?

Like I said, I have a match up thread for a different Orochimaru than this one, and an essay I'm bringing to the BD tomorrow. Until then, i really haven't got anything to say. If I ever use a manga supported argument again/try to use logic, reasoning and understanding @Kai is going to punish me. He practically said so himself.

I will say this though: You said "I actually think he wins this scenario". This is war arc Orochi, a stronger one than the Prime Orochimaru i'm always going on about (basically, Part 1 Orochi + his Part 2 showings up until his sealing at the Uchiha Hideout) - do you think that Orochimaru would not beat Itachi in this scenario? Because if so, then there is a serious problem.

And only one thing I want to ask every one else here: why do you think Prime Orochimaru = Nerfed Orochimaru
*Prime Orochimaru *= _has his arms, is healthy, has access to all his jutsu, 100% chakra capacity, neutral battle scenario_
*Nerfed Orochimaru* = _never had a neutral battle scenario against Itachi, was unhealthy, in some cases in his fights against Itachi, he just had no Killing Intent, so wasn't actually fighting, as he was trying to take Itachi's body, and most importantly, Shiki Fūjin, meaning he cannot use any jutsu (in Part 2, he had a new body with new physical arms, but not spiritual arms, so even though he could use basic jutsu which didn't require hand-seals and only required chakra control ie Oral Rebirth, Yamata no Jutsu, Mandara no Jin, Sen'eijashu, Sanjuu Rashomon, he still did not have access to his more intricate jutsus which require hand-seals ie Kuchiyose (which gives him access to summons such as San Kyodaija, Aoda and Manda, the latter of which is one of his two most useful weapons against Itachi) and Edo Tensei (his other most useful weapon against Itachi)_

Why do you all think these two are the same shinobi? Why?

If people knew the difference between these two ninjas since chapter 345/392 of the manga, I probably never would have signed up to Naruto Forums to begin with.

Anyway this was clearly a spite thread aiming to get me banned by spamming rubbish so that i'd go off on one and insult everyone in the forum, but guess what, its not going to work. My essays are perfect. I am not going to get upset by the spam I can see here. My debate is flawless. If no one here ever intends to read these essays I have provided, then, thats on you. But I've really got nothing more to say until tomorrow. We'll settle things finally then.

I'm not making any debate towards this spite thread, but i will ask little questions here and there.

Itachi vs War Arc Orochimaru
You don't need to ask me to know the answer to that. Either you have read the manga or you have not/have read, but carry bias for Itachi. That's all anyone needs to know. You assume that Orochi needs full knowledge and Itachi, no knowledge, in order for War Orochi to win.



Matty said:


> With full knowledge I don't see why he doesn't go right for it



@Matty - why would you even make this thread? Normally, I would insult one for making such a thread, but i'm chilling. In fact I'm laughing at you. All of you.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> In this version it's leaning towards Orochimaru way too much. ET Hiruzen/Tobirama/Minato.
> 
> @IzayaOrihara keeps it with part 1 ET. With Manga knowledge.


Exactly. This is what I mean @Matty.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Also, as for all mods. Please don't lock this thread, we aren't discussing the usual Orochimaru vs. Itachi match-up. This is different compared to before, this variant of Orochimaru has never faced Itachi.


I don't see why @Kai would be locking any threads. He doesn't contribute to anything. Just goes around shutting down my debates. I think he has his own insecurities about Itachi's power level which he is battling in his life right now, so I'll just ignore him until he is back to normal.


Even if everyone wants to ignore me and treat me as an outcast, please read my response to blackguyinpinksuit


blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Kabuto who was greater than oro as far as skills were concerned and had extensive knowledge on his genjutsu felt he needed to be blind to fight itachi. That's just how likely it is for him to catch you in a illusion. Oro would need a fanfic scenario or a entirely new fighting style to cater to itachi's hax.
> 
> So here unless oro can hide someplace and let the edos do his fighting for him then oro will get embarrassed again. Totsuka discourage the use of any monster forms since they are just big targets to get sucked up.


Another main problem is this, people using Itachi + EMS Sasuke > SM Kabuto to say Alive Itachi > Prime Orochimaru

For one, Kabuto and Orochimaru are not the same fighter. They share some abilities, but are not the same. That's like saying Tobirama and Minato are the same ninja, or Tsunade and Hashirama are the same ninjas

My main argument for Orochimaru countering Genjutsu is having Edos break him out (does SM Kabuto have Edos in fight with Itachi? No) using partner method, or staying out of range using his colossal summons (does SM Kabuto have Colossal Summons in that cramped up cave? No) and also he won with Izanami (does it work on Orochimaru? No).

But of course, nonsensical comparisons must always be made so that Itachi can be on top
such as SM Kabuto =/> Orochimaru in every single way, shape, form, ability, area, skill, extension,
also such as Nerfed Orochimaru = Prime Orochimaru
If people weren't getting these easily mistaken misconceptions so confused, then like I said, @IzayaOrihara would never have been a thing on Naruto Forums, because people would know Prime Orochimaru > Itachi. As for War Arc Orochimaru? Don't care about him. Hashirama one shots while Hiruzen rubs his feet, Minato massages his back and Tobirama holds an ice-cold drink with a straw to his lips. Then when its done, Hashirama makes a big leaf from his Mokuton tree and fans Orochimaru with it.

LOOL just made another  thread and it got closed. Shows the power of fanboyism. If I knew using logic/manga arguments was so wrong, I would never have come on this forum.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dislike 4


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 10, 2016)

Some of you cats on this forum take this debating shit a little too far…

Anyway Itachi one-shots. That whole "the manga established Itachi as equal to Jiraiya" is the argument of a moronic Neanderthal tbh.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 10, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> In this version it's leaning towards Orochimaru way too much. With ET Hiruzen/Tobirama/Minato at his disposal, he can literally finish this low difficulty.
> 
> @IzayaOrihara keeps it with part 1 ET only. With Manga knowledge.



 Depends. It wasn't specified if he even has his sacrifices set up or his Edo Tensei even summoned, so what you're suggesting isn't exactly true.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Depends. It wasn't specified if he even has his sacrifices set up or his Edo Tensei even summoned, so what you're suggesting isn't exactly true.



When the title says Full Power and others are commenting about ET and it isn't being corrected in the OP. I'll just assume it's Orochimaru with ET prepared.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 10, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> When the title says Full Power and others are commenting about ET and it isn't being corrected in the OP. I'll just assume it's Orochimaru with ET prepared.



 Fair enough, you got me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (Jun 10, 2016)

The ET has been prepped. He can use it to summon whoever he wants. There is still a chance itachi fucks up the summoning for him or catches him in a genjutsu even once someone is summoned.

Totsuka can seal so just because he gets it off doesn't mean that it is gg right away.

I still think Oro has the upper hand. I think this has nothing to do with the previous matches they have had. Pro should be in the best shape of his life fighting an Itachj that is also fully healthy


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 10, 2016)

@Clowe @ARGUS
Both of you disliked my post. Why?


sanninme rikudo said:


> Some of you cats on this forum take this debating shit a little too far…
> 
> Anyway Itachi one-shots. That whole "the manga established Itachi as equal to Jiraiya" is the argument of a moronic Neanderthal tbh.



@sanninme rikudo - why do you say that?

Itachi cannot oneshot someone stronger than the man he ran away from and said he could at best tie with, while fighting with Kisame and backup.

It is not moronic - you just have bias for Itachi and cant see him losing to Jiraiya. Well, Kishimoto can, so goodbye.


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## ARGUS (Jun 10, 2016)

Why I disliked your post?
Because we have already seen:

1. Orochimaru lose to Itachi, *twice* in the manga
Both of the fights didn't even last a minute

2. We have already seen Orochimaru admit inferiority to Itachi
That's a manga *fact* and he called it a "dream" to capture to Itachi
This alone should shut down any clown saying tat Orochimaru wins when Kishi has already shown us twice why that is never going to happen 


You Bringing down the same old statement of part 1 with the sannin hype is utter denial on your behalf.

You should have the tendency to actually listen to the other person. Don't Just continue to bring the same old Orochimaru > Jiriaya > Itachi
BS in this argument when:

1. Part 1 Itachi said that they would kill each other in a fight

2. Jiriaya =/= Orochimaru. And Orochimaru himself has admitted inferiority

Inb4 a long ass essay which is just based on your *assertion* that Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi when the manga has established multiple times that in front of the uchiha he's just a run of the mill ninja

And I would advise you that if people can't be bothered to read your huge asss slabs of paragraphs Then there's also your fault here

Because you should learn how to concisely form arguments. It's for your own good. In the forums and in real life

You should also learn to actually accept someone's views.

It's not "wank" to say that tsukuyomi or totsuka one shot him

When Orochimaru in his strongest form was one shotted by totsuka and when he was finished by a measly 3T genjutsu twice.
Let alone tsukuyomi

And don't expect another reply 

Read this and think about what I have said 
It's for your own good

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2016)

Full knowledge for Orochi? No knowledge for Itachi? No restrictions? Orochi realizes that Edo Tensei is his only way of winning and then Itachi gets gangbanged. Soooooooo Edo Tensei GG? Edo Tensei GG.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Why I disliked your post?Because we have already seen:
> 1. Orochimaru lose to Itachi, *twice* in the manga
> Both of the fights didn't even last a minute



Yes. I believe we've addressed this.



> 2. We have already seen Orochimaru admit inferiority to Itachi
> That's a manga *fact* and he called it a "dream" to capture to Itachi. This alone should shut down any clown saying tat Orochimaru wins when Kishi has already shown us twice why that is never going to happen.



I believe we have addressed this as well. I'm confused.



> You Bringing down the same old statement of part 1 with the sannin hype is utter denial on your behalf. You should have the tendency to actually listen to the other person. Don't Just continue to bring the same old Orochimaru > Jiriaya > Itachi. BS in this argument when:
> 1. Part 1 Itachi said that they would kill each other in a fight
> 2. Jiriaya =/= Orochimaru. And Orochimaru himself has admitted inferiority



It's a shaky statement I will give you that. Him and Kisame barley winning with back up. 

Though without Itachi, Kisame would've been torn to bits by Toad Mouth Trap. So their fear is understandable, right?



> Inb4 a long ass essay which is just based on your *assertion* that Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi when the manga has established multiple times that in front of the uchiha he's just a run of the mill ninja



We aren't discussing a manga fight. Are you lost? (In @IzayaOrihara case) this is Orochimaru Prime vs Healthy Itachi. These characters never faced in the manga. 



> And I would advise you that if people can't be bothered to read your huge asss slabs of paragraphs Then there's also your fault here



Actually it's their fault. If you go to a library and see a giant book that says "In Depth Analysis on THIS" and a sticker that says "This is that".. then decide to agree with the sticker because it's shorter and you are too lazy to read the book, you shouldn't be forming an opinion on the subject anyway.



> Because you should learn how to concisely form arguments. It's for your own good. In the forums and in real life



Who the hell are you to tell anyone that? 



> You should also learn to actually accept someone's views. It's not "wank" to say that tsukuyomi or totsuka one shot him. When Orochimaru in his strongest form was one shotted by totsuka and when he was finished by a measly 3T genjutsu twice. Let alone tsukuyomi.



 I thought you'd never stop. If that is your argument for why Itachi wins its very poor. 

@IzayaOrihara has explained numerous times. Go find almost any post from him. 



> And don't expect another reply



We wouldn't.



> Read this and think about what I have said
> It's for your own good



@IzayaOrihara don't think about shit:

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 11, 2016)

I don't need to respond to these people that think Itachi was portrayed above Prime Orochimaru. I have explained several times why this was not the case.

Prime Orochimaru was compared to Itachi's superiors time and time again, Jiraiya, Minato, Tobirama
Prime Orochimaru was also seen as a more dangerous opponent than Healthy Itachi by Part 1 Kakashi

Nerfed Orochimaru lost to Itachi (wasn't fighting the 1st time round; was unhealthy and had sealed arms the 2nd time round)
Nerfed Orochimaru admitted inferiority (after he lost his arms to Hiruzen)

What part of this can you not understand?

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 11, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Why I disliked your post?
> Because we have already seen:
> 
> 1. Orochimaru lose to Itachi, *twice* in the manga
> Both of the fights didn't even last a minute


Nerfed Orochi =/= Prime Orochi



> 2. We have already seen Orochimaru admit inferiority to Itachi
> That's a manga *fact* and he called it a "dream" to capture to Itachi
> This alone should shut down any clown saying tat Orochimaru wins when Kishi has already shown us twice why that is never going to happen


Again, Nerfed
and capturing =/= killing



> You Bringing down the same old statement of part 1 with the sannin hype is utter denial on your behalf.


Still a valid statement. I do not care if it  was written in 2016 or 1986, it is still part of the manga.



> You should have the tendency to actually listen to the other person. Don't Just continue to bring the same old Orochimaru > Jiriaya > Itachi
> BS in this argument when:


My arguments (as in the essay i made recently) was never one of hype (not that ABC isnt valid logic), it was one of feats. How Orochimaru uses the abilities he has shown in the manga to counter Itachi's abilities and defeat me.



> 1. Part 1 Itachi said that they would kill each other in a fight
> 
> 2. Jiriaya =/= Orochimaru. And Orochimaru himself has admitted inferiority


Orochimaru > Jiraiya. You cannot deny that.
And fine, Itachi + Kisame + Backup = Jiraiya, have it your way



> Inb4 a long ass essay which is just based on your *assertion* that Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi when the manga has established multiple times that in front of the uchiha he's just a run of the mill ninja


Orochimaru is not a run of the mill ninja. He said so himself.

It is not my assertion, it is a manga fact.
If not, then why is it that Kakashi saw him as more dangerous?
Again, you cant deny that there is a trend
Everytime the manga displayed Orochi < Itachi, he had some form of nerf
When he was in Prime, as in no nerf at all, no sealed arms/partially sealed arms/lack of killing intent etc etc, he was shown as > Itachi

And I would advise you that if people can't be bothered to read your huge asss slabs of paragraphs Then there's also your fault here



> Because you should learn how to concisely form arguments. It's for your own good. In the forums and in real life


Who are you lecturing. Who do you think you are speaking to.
I write long essays and you say i can make an argument, when you repeat the same points (which i have already addressed) over and over again, and ignore anything else i have to say



> You should also learn to actually accept someone's views.


Nope. If your view doesn't correlate with the manga I am not accepting it



> It's not "wank" to say that tsukuyomi or totsuka one shot him


Fine then, Kusanagi and Manda one shots
Since that is how we are debating



> When Orochimaru in his strongest form was one shotted by totsuka and when he was finished by a measly 3T genjutsu twice.
> Let alone tsukuyomi


When was he finished twice? Sasuke turned Fushi Tensei against him, that is nothing to do with Itachi
When was he finsihed by itachi? How does getting your hand cut off = you were finished, especially in the case of Orochimaru, who has lost an arm on panel and laughed at it and regenerated
You take Itachi's feats out of proportion and give him the feats of other Sharingan users, as people always do

Who stated Yamata was his best form? Because the last time I checked, Orochimaru being immobilised with no counter to Totsuka <<< Prime Orochimaru, who has much better things than Yamata, like Manda, starts in base where he can dodge Totsuks, and has Edo Tensei

I dont care if DB said Yamata is his greatest jutsu, cos Manda isnt a jutsu, and i dont care if it boasts a larger frame, because  the number 8 > the number 1, so it is not bigger, and even those things were stated, i still wouldnt care, cos Manda has shown me in the manga he is better than Yamata



> And don't expect another reply
> 
> Read this and think about what I have said
> It's for your own good


Of course not, you dont know how to debate

You are not a real poster on this forum. You are just a blatant liar so I see no reason to debate with someone like you.
All you do is repeat things I have addressed (if you havent read any of my essays thats on you not me) and resort to insults and try to change the topic to real life to avoid the fact Orochi > Itachi

Stop arguing with me about Jiraiya. That's not up for debate with me. The manga told me is slightly stronger than Itachi and slightly weaker than Prime Orochimaru. Behave yourself.


So .....
Orochimaru summons ET, Itachi does CQC, puts Oro in Genjutsu, Edos break him out, do CQC with Itachi,  Orochi jumps back, Tobirama gets sealed, Hashi pulls him out with Mokuton, and Oro kills.

Or, he summons Manda from the get go, Itachi tries Amaterasu since he cant get into Genjutsu range, Manda escapes with skin shedding and gets underground and the attacks Itachi, who even if susanoo is up, he dies

Or he Tsukuyomis Manda, but then Orochi summons Aoda to replace him, and just does the same thing

Even if Itachi gets summons out of the way, Orochi will have Edos out by that time, and could do what I stated earlier.

That is my opinion, and is supported by the manga unlike yours, so you dont have to agree. Keep wanking. It looks good for you anyway.

@HandfullofNaruto's earlier post is basically what I just said above so if that seems disorganised go and read his post. I don't know why people cannot accept Itachi's short coming and move on.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Exactly.
Just as I said, you don't have to think about shit.


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## Matty (Jun 11, 2016)

One thing I don't get is why people consider the 30 second fight he had when he emerged from sasuke as a stomp for itachi.

Oro had no knowledge of a legendary weapon that Itachi possessed. It wasnt level fighting ground.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> One thing I don't get is why people consider the 30 second fight he had when he emerged from sasuke as a stomp for itachi. Oro had no knowledge of a legendary weapon that Itachi possessed. It wasnt level fighting ground.



Exactly, it wasn't a neutral battle scenario at all.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> One thing I don't get is why people consider the 30 second fight he had when he emerged from sasuke as a stomp for itachi.
> 
> Oro had no knowledge of a legendary weapon that Itachi possessed. It wasnt level fighting ground.



 That is commonly the normal battle stipulations found in the manga.

 Even then, it was a stomp and suggests Itachi would slaughter him. He was Sick, Blind, and on his Deathbed and Itachi planned that he would be in such a state to fight Orochimaru and still have enough chakra to transplant Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye. That alone suggests that Orochimaru wasn't on his level. It really doesn't matter if Orochimaru has knowledge because Itachi always has a trick up his sleeve. He duped Orochimaru's superior through having tricks up his sleeve such as Izanami and Kotoamatsukami. No matter what Orochimaru does, he could never compete with Itachi.

@HandfullofNaruto is right, it wasn't a neutral battle scenario because both oppositions were at such a huge disadvantage, even Itachi moreso, but funny how they usually forget that.


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## Matty (Jun 11, 2016)

No that is true. But it certainly wasn't a level playing field fight. 

Not saying Itachi doesn't win. Just saying I don't believe it should be considered a "fight"


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That is commonly the normal battle stipulations found in the manga. Even then, it was a stomp and suggests Itachi would slaughter him. He was Sick, Blind, and on his Deathbed and Itachi planned that he would be in such a state to fight Orochimaru and still have enough chakra to transplant Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye. That alone suggests that Orochimaru wasn't on his level. It really doesn't matter if Orochimaru has knowledge because Itachi always has a trick up his sleeve. He duped Orochimaru's superior through having tricks up his sleeve such as Izanami and Kotoamatsukami. No matter what Orochimaru does, he could never compete with Itachi.


If you want to talk about trick up peoples sleeves, Orochimaru is possibly the oldest living character in the Narutoverse/Borutoverse. He's been killed sooo many times lol. Itachi gets killed once and then brought back by Orochimarus little henchmen Kabuto. That's a way cooler trick lol. As for everything else I'm waaaay to tired to respond lol. Don't consider this a concession. I'll eventually get to it lol.


> @HandfullofNaruto is right, it wasn't a neutral battle scenario because both oppositions were at such a huge disadvantage, even Itachi moreso, but funny how they usually forget that.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Matty (Jun 11, 2016)

Definitely not the oldest


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## Reznor (Jun 11, 2016)

Edo Tensei soloes.

Reactions: Like 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> Definitely not the oldest


In Borutoverse? Who is oldest?

Edit: He's one of the legendary Sannin. He was alive while Hashirama was still alive. Who is older than he is? (BorutoVerse)


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Sooo? 
Who's the oldest character @Matty?


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## Reznor (Jun 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> In Borutoverse? Who is oldest?
> 
> Edit: He's one of the legendary Sannin. He was alive while Hashirama was still alive. Who is older than he is? (BorutoVerse)


Tsunade, by two months.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Tsunade, by two months.


Is she still alive? I don't remember seeing her
after Naruto becomes Hokage. 
What if she died ?


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 11, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That is commonly the normal battle stipulations found in the manga.
> 
> Even then, it was a stomp and suggests Itachi would slaughter him. He was Sick, Blind, and on his Deathbed and Itachi planned that he would be in such a state to fight Orochimaru and still have enough chakra to transplant Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye. That alone suggests that Orochimaru wasn't on his level. It really doesn't matter if Orochimaru has knowledge because Itachi always has a trick up his sleeve. He duped Orochimaru's superior through having tricks up his sleeve such as Izanami and Kotoamatsukami. No matter what Orochimaru does, he could never compete with Itachi.
> 
> @HandfullofNaruto is right, it wasn't a neutral battle scenario because both oppositions were at such a huge disadvantage, even Itachi moreso, but funny how they usually forget that.


We understand that, but Orochi emerges in a form where he is practically immobile, and is a sitting duck, and Itachi is standing there with Totsuka. He was set up to win that fight.

On Topic: Manda/ET GG. People don't like providing proofs for their argument so i wont either, consdering I have proved this argument time after time



Matty said:


> One thing I don't get is why people consider the 30 second fight he had when he emerged from sasuke as a stomp for itachi.
> 
> Oro had no knowledge of a legendary weapon that Itachi possessed. It wasnt level fighting ground.


Exactly, but Itachi fans assume that is a normal battle, just like they assume nerfed oro = prime oro, so they have an excuse to say Itachi wins

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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 11, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Tsunade, by two months.


TBH, isn't Onoki still alive? He should be like 156 by now

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Matty (Jun 11, 2016)

Also village elders + Chiyo's brother. A ton of older characters. They are old as fuck, and Oro and Tsunade have always kept youthful appearances


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> Also village elders + Chiyo's brother. A ton of older characters. They are old as fuck, and Oro and Tsunade have always kept youthful appearances



Yea but I'm talking Borutoverse, none of those characters should be alive.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If you want to talk about trick up peoples sleeves, Orochimaru is possibly the oldest living character in the Narutoverse/Borutoverse. *He's been killed sooo many times lol. Itachi gets killed once and then brought back by Orochimarus little henchmen Kabuto.* That's a way cooler trick lol. As for everything else I'm waaaay to tired to respond lol. Don't consider this a concession. I'll eventually get to it lol.



 And Itachi literally had a trick up his sleeve to counter it, thus, proving my point even further.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And Itachi literally had a trick up his sleeve to counter it, thus, proving my point even further.



Haha I'm not using what I said as an argument for 
Orochimaru > Itachi. I'm just saying who's tricks are cooler lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2016)

Manga clearly established this 
Pointless thread
Same for any hashirama vs Madara thread where Madara isn't given a boost not shown in the manga


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Manga clearly established this
> Pointless thread
> Same for any hashirama vs Madara thread where Madara isn't given a boost not shown in the manga



This isn't a manga fight.
This fight never occurred in the manga.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Haha I'm not using what I said as an argument for
> Orochimaru > Itachi. I'm just saying who's tricks are cooler lol.



 Understood.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 11, 2016)

The whole defense against Orochimaru's explicit statement that he's weaker than Itachi was that he said it after he was sealed? 

You've got to be kidding me. It seems that your reading comprehension NEEDS to be put into question. 

 putting him critical condition

This statement was said in past tense....so it's before Orochimaru's attack on Konoha since he said that if Itachi joined them, it would be no problem at all to destroy Konoha.....and Oro then explicitly said that it was only a dream that he could wish for.....Because Itachi was even stronger than himself. 


I think this should be enough to shut you up....


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The whole defense against Orochimaru's explicit statement that he's weaker than Itachi was that he said it after he was sealed?



No, It's that Orochimaru was deluded lol. At least for me it is. Since he's not actually delusional I'll assume he said it because his ego/body was hurt/sealed. So let me just say our argument has nothing to due with the Nerfed Orochimaru that got soloed by Itachi twice. It's a battle that's never occurred in the manga. So manga statements like those should honestly be ignored. I'm far more interested in the actual battle scenario. 



> You've got to be kidding me. It seems that your reading comprehension NEEDS to be put into question.
> 
> putting him critical condition
> 
> This statement was said in past tense....so it's before Orochimaru's attack on Konoha since he said that if Itachi joined them, it would be no problem at all to destroy Konoha.....and Oro then explicitly said that it was only a dream that he could wish for.....Because Itachi was even stronger than himself.



Yea. When he approached Itachi he was looking for a new host body. So the excuse still stands. Whatever though I could give two shits about that moment.



> I think this should be enough to shut you up....



Really?


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## Sapherosth (Jun 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> No, It's that Orochimaru was deluded lol. At least for me it is. Since he's not actually delusional I'll assume he said it because his ego/body was hurt/sealed. So let me just say our argument has nothing to due with the Nerfed Orochimaru that got soloed by Itachi twice. It's a battle that's never occurred in the manga. So manga statements like those should honestly be ignored. I'm far more interested in the actual battle scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





..................So Orochimaru's statement should be ignored, but Itachi's *questionable* statement about Jiraiya should be taken as fact and shouldn't be ignored. And is also used as a large basis behind the whole "Oro > Itachi" argument.


I understand clearly now.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> ..................So Orochimaru's statement should be ignored, but Itachi's *questionable* statement about Jiraiya should be taken as fact and shouldn't be ignored. And is also used as a large basis behind the whole "Oro > Itachi" argument.
> 
> 
> I understand clearly now.



Look back I already said that statement should also be ignored since it doesn't actually contribute to the battle scenario.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 11, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Look back I already said that statement should also be ignored since it doesn't actually contribute to the battle scenario.





But.......You agreed with IzayaOrihara's statements and his "Essay", which included a SHIT TON of those statements. In fact, it actually forms the entire basis of his argument.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> But.......You agreed with IzayaOrihara's statements and his "Essay", which included a SHIT TON of those statements. In fact, it actually forms the entire basis of his argument.



Nope, you can ask him. I didn't agree with that section. Not that I didn't agree but I thought it wasn't necessary. The battle scenario is my only concern. Which is probably why he takes such a liking to me. I know how to stay focused. I know how to ignore bullshit and address the important matters. It all comes down to the actual battle scenario and Orochimaru (especially in this thread) deals with Itachi.


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## Reznor (Jun 11, 2016)

Assuming you guys are right about the face value portrayal that Itachi > Orochimaru, it's definitely either been retconned or changed by Zetsu body and having his arms back.
Realistically, Orochimaru was above Itachi, but Itachi was a bad matchup for Orochimaru.
Sure, Armless Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him, but Itachi said Jiraiya was stronger than him, and Orochimaru is at least Jiraiya's level.

Itachi won against Oro 
1. when he tried to use a jutsu that the Sharigan stops
2. right when he popped out of Sasuke

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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 11, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The whole defense against Orochimaru's explicit statement that he's weaker than Itachi was that he said it after he was sealed?
> 
> You've got to be kidding me. It seems that your reading comprehension NEEDS to be put into question.
> 
> ...



Yes, and he was referring to the time when he tried to take Itachi's body and failed. Which only happened because the Sharingan is an illogical counter to Fushi Tensei, due to plot, and because his body was near the end of it's life span at the time. Considering Jiraiya told Naruto at the end of Part 1 that Orochimaru can only switch bodies every 3 years, and toward the end of his most recent body he stated it was having an adverse reaction and he was left extremely sickly. Itachi is only stronger than Orochimaru when you listen to Kishi's wanking and include PIS and CIS. Is the point we are trying to make, we are not saying we hate Itachi. We're simply saying that we're actually going to fully examine the Manga and not value wanking and plot influences like everyone else does.

 Itachi being stronger than him doesn't even make sense, Orochimaru's entire arsenal can counter Itachi's own and Itachi admitted inferiority to Jiraiya (who was stated to be able to beat Pain under certain circumstances, and Pain >>> Itachi) who is inferior to Orochi. Orochimaru has even been compared to the likes of Minato, someone anyone who is not biased or deluded knows is far above Itachi. Yet, he is somehow weaker than Itachi. It's extremely stupid and goes against Kishi's own Manga, Orochimaru was said to have greater talent than Hiruzen, who had greater talent than Tobirama, who was able to defeat a stronger MS user than Itachi. Then we even have Kakashi, who was completely scared shitless by even being in Orochimaru's presence and could barely even move out of fear. Yet, wasn't nearly as scared and actually was able to hold his own in a fight against Itachi and Kisame. Either way you look at it, Orochimaru should logically be stronger. Literally ever time he "lost" to Itachi it was because he was hindered in some way and made to act stupid by Kishi. It's really not that hard to see man.



Reznor said:


> Assuming you guys are right about the face value portrayal that Itachi > Orochimaru, it's definitely either been retconned or changed by Zetsu body and having his arms back.
> Realistically, Orochimaru was above Itachi, but Itachi was a bad matchup for Orochimaru.
> Sure, Armless Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him, but Itachi said Jiraiya was stronger than him, and Orochimaru is at least Jiraiya's level.
> 
> ...



It's great to see that someone else understands.

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## Eliyua23 (Jun 11, 2016)

There is not even evidence on what orochimaru can do at this juncture or that he can overcome the sharingan with his new found power , we see Kabuto who should be just as strong could not overcome the sharingan in the end , and thats where I think Kishi wants it that Orochimaru is strong but his abilities are simply hard countered by Itachi's sharingan in the end , don't think it changes here


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 11, 2016)

Orochimaru has snake sensing to get around genjutsu.

Orochimaru could use Assimilate All Creation to attack Itachi from underground while he's inside Susanoo.

He could use his snake summons to wrap around Susanoo so it can't move.

Itachi is powerful, but he's still a squishy man that Orochimaru's jutsus can injure and kill.

Orochimaru could use his blood to poison Itachi.

Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth will counter Amaterasu.

The biggest threat here for Orochimaru is Totsuka, but if he can avoid it then he could win.

Now if he uses Edo Tensei...

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## Rai (Jun 11, 2016)

Itachi neg difficulty

Even if you add Edo Hashirama, Edo Minato, Edo Tobirama and Edo Hiruzen the outcome won't change.

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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 11, 2016)

Matty said:


> One thing I don't get is why people consider the 30 second fight he had when he emerged from sasuke as a stomp for itachi.
> 
> Oro had no knowledge of a legendary weapon that Itachi possessed. It wasnt level fighting ground.



Aside from that, Orochimaru was an armless disembodied spirit stuck to a growth on Sasuke's neck and used all his chakra to emerge from Sasuke.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 11, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> @Clowe @ARGUS
> Both of you disliked my post. Why?
> 
> 
> ...


What's actually moronic is the fact that of all quotes that come from Itachi, you guys seem to cling to the one about Jiraiya the most, and not the fact that he once thought himself unstoppable.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 11, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What's actually moronic is the fact that of all quotes that come from Itachi, you guys seem to cling to the one about Jiraiya the most, and not the fact that he once thought himself unstoppable.


Which he himself realized was faulty thinking.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 11, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> What's actually moronic is the fact that of all quotes that come from Itachi, you guys seem to cling to the one about Jiraiya the most, and not the fact that he once thought himself unstoppable.


 The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.) 

Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect.

Literal vs Non literal that is why our quote has value and yours is doo-doo. 

but honestly fuck the quotes, I'm just giving you a straight answer. I don't even value the quotes in this argument personally. I stick to theory not manga.


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## Matty (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm not understanding why Jiraiya>Itachi. Don't make sense. That quote was bs. He's def above sannin. But I believe by War Arc, Orochimaru clearly passes previous sannin levels and Itachi.

(He can literally summon Itachi and fight along side of him for people not grasping his ceiling)

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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 12, 2016)

Orochimaru with Edo Tensei prepped and ready to go wins

Otherwise Itachi wins, as we don't know what upgrades his new body gives him to stuff besides ET, and Itachi already beat Orochimaru twice.

1st time - really don't know why people are arguing about this, the fact that Orochimaru was trying to steal the body doesn't detract from the fact that there was most likely a fight. Young Itachi babyshaked Oro so hard he said it was an impossible dream
2nd time - not sure why people are saying it wasn't fair for Orochimaru - he got speedblitzed by Totsuka, that's it. Meanwhile Itachi was literally moments from dying, was literally blind, was coughing up blood and had ninja aids. Literally on his deathbed considering he died minutes after.

The whole bit about Jiraiya and Itachi admitting inferiority - Itachi was always a good guy and would have plausible reason to lie to Kisame to get him to backdown from a fight that would hurt leaf villagers. In fact it was possible he was Jiraiya's informant on

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## sanninme rikudo (Jun 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.)
> 
> Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect.
> 
> ...


Claims he has no reason to lie, then proceeds to use a quote from Part 1 Itachi, the variant of Itachi renown for spewing bullshit lies. Then deems the quote from an Edo Itachi, who knows that everyone already knows his secret so he wouldn't have anything to lie about at that point, a lie. 

Some of you cats on this forum need to reevaluate yourselves.…


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi. He admits as much in PI, and it's stated again by Itachi and Sasuke in PII; as well as showing Orochimaru come up short against Itachi again and again; also strongly implied in the Data-books. The excuse that he was in a weakened condition doesn't hold up ether, as all of these statements are made in the past tense, meaning that even before Shiki Fuujin weakened Orochimaru, he still was weaker than Itachi.

Jiraiya on the other hand is stronger than Orochimaru, from a feats perspective because he can use SM while Orochimaru could not, and from a more broad story perspective because he's Naruto parallel in the rivalry who always ends up a superior Ninja to the Sasuke parallel (at least while both are alive). And thus being stronger than Orochimaru he's a bigger threat to Itachi.

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## Eliyua23 (Jun 12, 2016)

Its also symbolism for how the story is told 


Over the course of the manga Senjutsu and Sharingan have shown to be the most important and critical powers in the manga , and even Rinnegan we realize is connected to the sharingan , in the end all of these are more powerful than Orochimaru's snake abilities and even Edo Tensei , now Orochimaru is fascinating because he took what he did and become uber powerful with it but what he did is no match for the powers held by Rikudo Sennin himself , powers that were passed down through his bloodline 

Parallel Powers> Non Parallel powers 

Jiraiya and Itachi were in a way bootleg versions of Rikudo's sons


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 12, 2016)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Claims he has no reason to lie, then proceeds to use a quote from Part 1 Itachi, the variant of Itachi renown for spewing bullshit lies. Then deems the quote from an Edo Itachi, who knows that everyone already knows his secret so he wouldn't have anything to lie about at that point, a lie.
> 
> Some of you cats on this forum need to reevaluate yourselves.…



I never quoted anything from edo Itachi. 
Yea p1, deceptive guy. What motive did he have not to take Kyubi though? Oh I know, Naruto is the main character. So Kishi, the genius he is, was like - ok il put one stronger character between these guys (Jiraiya) & the show goes on.  He did all his Akatsuki work diligently, so it's not like he had a moral hang up from what I can tell, hence my inclusion of the quote. What's his motive for that lie, because the reasons for all his other lies were clear. If Jiraiya weren't there do you really think Itachi wouldn't have taken Kyubi? Blown his cover with the Akatsuki and everything? Cause I don't.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Ah, the Cookie Monster. Epitome of retarded, just like you?


DBIII, "Ever since the one day he suffered complete defeat against Itachi's powerful eyes, the body from one of the Uchiha clan became, to Orochimaru, the container of his dreams."

DBIII, "But even that tenacity crumbled before Itachi's Totsuka no Tsurugi (Sword of Totsuka)."

DBIII, "Even with his praiseworthy genius, Bloodline Limits had a power Orochimaru failed to comprehend. That's precisely why he endeavored to obtain sharingan through Reincarnation."

DBIII, "He pushes him to his limits, so that he can dig out the snake and seal it eternally with the incorporeal "Sword of Totsuka". At last, he puts an end to Orochimaru's relentless obsession with the Uchiha's body."

DBIII, "Orochimaru is defeated by the sword he himself had looked for."

DBIV, "Confrontation with Orochimaru, targeting the Sharingan?!! Turning the tables on Orochimaru?s attack aiming for the Sharingan. Orochimaru withdrew from Akatsuki for that chance."

Sasuke, "Itachi was too hard work..." "I guess that's why you targeted a young chick like me"

Itachi, "Orochimaru...."Your jutsu of any kind" "As long as it's in front of these eyes what sort of potency could they hold"

Sasuke, _"In the present time nether myself nor Orochimaru can defeat Itachi"_

Orochimaru, "However" "that" "wish is now just a dream"
Orochimaru, "His strength is beyond mine..."
Orochimaru, "That's why I left that Organization..."





Yes it's retarded to believe that Orochimaru was portrayed as inferior to Itachi

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 12, 2016)

@Turrin 
No it's retarded of you to think I ever thought that in the first place. _Obviously _he was portrayed as inferior to Itachi in the manga- I read it. I agree with that 100% , it's fact. 

Just read my & @IzayaOrihara previous posts on this thread . Context is priceless

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Sapherosth (Jun 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Turrin
> No it's retarded of you to think I ever thought that in the first place. _Obviously _he was portrayed as inferior to Itachi in the manga- I read it. I agree with that 100% , it's fact.
> 
> Just read my & @IzayaOrihara previous posts on this thread . Context is priceless




Erm.....but then you used Portrayal of Jiraiya > Itachi to justify your points about how It's illogical and retarded of Kishi to make Orochimaru weaker than Itachi, then you tried to argue that Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi.

Da fuq?

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 12, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Turrin
> No it's retarded of you to think I ever thought that in the first place. _Obviously _he was portrayed as inferior to Itachi in the manga- I read it. I agree with that 100% , it's fact.
> 
> Just read my & @IzayaOrihara previous posts on this thread . Context is priceless


Honestly, it's not worth arguing since they're completely unable to detect what is known as PIS, CIS, and take everything Kishi hands them at face value. They don't know how to evaluate the series as a whole and understand that their is a certain thing called plot.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Honestly, it's not worth arguing since they're completely unable to detect what is known as PIS, CIS, and take everything Kishi hands them at face value. They don't know how to evaluate the series as a whole and understand that their is a certain thing called plot.








Might as well go and say "fuck you, I ain't buying your shit. That's not how it's supposed to go" to Kishimoto.


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Turrin
> No it's retarded of you to think I ever thought that in the first place. _Obviously _he was portrayed as inferior to Itachi in the manga- I read it. I agree with that 100% , it's fact.
> 
> Just read my & @IzayaOrihara previous posts on this thread . Context is priceless


Okay so your stance and posts are just completely nonsensical then, K, I won't bother w/ you anymore

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

Oro fodderstomps.

His War Arc self is several tiers above itachi with the whole ET thing.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Oro fodderstomps.
> 
> He is War Arc self is several tiers above itachi with the whole ET thing.




So, this is Orochimaru with ET Hokages under his control - 

And this is part 1 Itachi - With KOTO Crow before he gave it to Naruto.


Itachi summons crow -> Crow uses Koto on Oro -> Itachi wins   
Or....He uses it on Edo Minato.. so it's Itachi+Edo BM Minato vs Oro,Tobirama and Hiruzen


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> So, this is Orochimaru with ET Hokages under his control -
> 
> And this is part 1 Itachi - With KOTO Crow before he gave it to Naruto.
> 
> ...



The crow was not even working at that time (did not have the MS). Nice try tho. 

Also, Minato has Kurama, so Genjutsu ain't working either way.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 13, 2016)

@Turrin @Sapherosth
Y'all misunderstand.
I agree with _the fact _that that's in the manga. Duh. I disagree with your interpretation.

How is that nonsensical?

I never meant " I agree with *you *100% " , I just agree that our eyeballs are seeing the same thing when we look at the manga. Itachi is being portrayed as superior. Keyword : portrayed. I already elaborated how the story gives color to the different scenes etc. I don't get why you're so confused.

In the battle situation , prime O-man is stronger than Itachi through blah bla a bunch of things previously stated. Where is my contradiction ? I've held the same view this entire time. ?


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2016)

I honestly don't think Orochimaru could control the Edo-Hokages in battle. He seemed to be having a tough time just stopping Tobirama from moving let alone commanding him in battle and that's with the other Hokages playing nice. We also know for a fact that Orochimaru could not even begin to control Hashirama and I have my doubts when it comes to him controlling Minato if he draws on Kurama's chakra. So probably if he tries to have the Hokage fight Itachi, Hashirama just outright defies him and likely sides w/ Itachi; Minato probably does too. And than Orochimaru get's his shit pushed in even if he can control Hiruzen & Tobirama to fight for him, while being able to fight himself at the same time; which i'm not sure he can.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The crow was not even working at that time (did not have the MS). Nice try tho.
> 
> Also, Minato has Kurama, so Genjutsu ain't working either way.





Oh snap, you're right 

Forgot that it wasn't ready.


Anyways why the hell would Kurama help Orochimaru? Koto breaks control of Edo, so it's a free Minato regardless if Kurama breaks Koto or not.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I honestly don't think Orochimaru could control the Edo-Hokages in battle. He seemed to be having a tough time just stopping Tobirama from moving let alone commanding him in battle and that's with the other Hokages playing nice. We also know for a fact that Orochimaru could not even begin to control Hashirama and I have my doubts when it comes to him controlling Minato if he draws on Kurama's chakra. So probably if he tries to have the Hokage fight Itachi, Hashirama just outright defies him and likely sides w/ Itachi; Minato probably does too. And than Orochimaru get's his shit pushed in even if he can control Hiruzen & Tobirama to fight for him, while being able to fight himself at the same time; which i'm not sure he can.


If he wants to use them he would simply use the Kunais to suppress their personalities. He did not do that because he wanted them to talk with Sasuke.

Just like how he made Hashirama and Tobirama his dolls in part 1 with those Kunais spells.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 13, 2016)

@Sapherosth @Turrin
The whole point of a hypothetical fight is that the plot with the exception of feats is completely irrelevant, so saying things like Minato would disobey Orochimaru is incredibly stupid. The fact you guys are even discussing the semantics of Edo Tensei is just.. omg wai ugh.


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Oh snap, you're right
> 
> Forgot that it wasn't ready.
> 
> ...


Why would Kurama give a darn about itachi?
It makes no different to him if it's Oro or not, and I would say he probably hate the sharingan
more than Oro.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Why would Kurama give a darn about itachi?
> It makes no different to him if it's Oro or not, and I would say he probably hate the sharingan
> more than Oro.



Lol.....It does make a difference because Minato won't be helping Orochimaru. Why the hell would they be willingly controlled by Orochimaru? Neither Kurama or Minato would let that happen if they can help it.


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

I don't think it makes a different to Minato whether he destroy Oro or itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Orochimaru outright stated that he left the organization because of Itachi's strength which is why he admitted inferiority and yet people think he was referring to his Weakened self. Flat out denial.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> If he wants to use them he would simply use the Kunais to suppress their personalities. He did not do that because he wanted them to talk with Sasuke.
> 
> Just like how he made Hashirama and Tobirama his dolls in part 1 with those Kunais spells.


A) Orochimaru has to be able to put the Talisman's into the Hokage first. Hashirama isn't going to allow that to happen and likely nether is Minato

B) We don't know if the Talisman would even work on Shinobi of Hashirama and KCM-Minato's caliber let alone, Tobirama & Hiruzen.

C) He still needs to channel sufficient chakra to the Talisman for the Talisman to work and to control the Edos, he probably doesn't have sufficient chakra to control Hashirama, KCM-Minato, Tobirama, and Hiruzen at once like that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2016)

Not only Itachi is the superior shinobi but he also has the right tools to defeat Orochimaru. Orochimaru can soak damage but not the kind of damage Itachi can dish out. Itachi wins even under these artificial conditions.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 13, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Might as well go and say "fuck you, I ain't buying your shit. That's not how it's supposed to go" to Kishimoto.


 Dude, we know that Kishimoto himself established that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru. But when you look at non-Itachi related things in the series then you will see why Orochimaru being weaker than him makes no sense based on the level that Kishi has placed him on outside of Itachi. We've already explained ourselves like several times, I'm really not understanding why you cannot grasp this... A man who was initially going to be chosen over Minato (because Minato is factually far above Itachi) to be Hokage being weaker than Itachi makes no fucking sense.... a man who scared Kakashi so much that he could barely move when Kakashi is actually able to hold his own in battle against Itachi and Kisame makes no fucking sense....a man who is superior to Jiraiya (Who was stated to be capable of defeating Pain, who is much stronger than Itachi) and a Sannin like him who Itachi and Kisame both admitted inferiority to as a whole makes no fucking sense.... a man who was even more talented than Hiruzen who was more talented than Tobirama (who is above Itachi) being weaker than Itachi makes no sense... it's all fucking retarded. Yet, Kishi keeps depicting Orochimaru as being weaker than Itachi. This is not hard to fathom, this is why we're saying that Kishimoto is wanking Itachi and the Uchiha in general. Because he disregards his own established canon and previous (and even later) statements to make Itachi look good and to put him above Orochimaru by using PIS and CIS to make Orochimaru act like he is mentally incapacitated when around him and giving him easy wins which is what created this annoying "Amaterasu GG, Tsukuyomi GG, Totsuka GG" meme bullshit.

"Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics." Like how instead of Orochimaru walking straight up to Itachi and getting defeated quickly. He could've used Doton to travel underground, and then summon up Manda, several other snakes, and use Mandara no Jin to trash Itachi's ass by having Manda and more than ten thousand snakes come out of the ground beneath him, whilst a Kage Bunshin on standby projects the Kusanagi at him from another angle, which he sure as hell isn't countering. Or when he forgot that he can influence and harm his servants with his Curse Mark when he fought Sasuke, so that Sasuke could beat him and he could later be defeated again by Itachi. Or when Kishi made Nagato stop using his sensing (this man's sensing is so great that he could simultaneously fight with his Six Paths of Pain, and sense other sensors trying to sense him and would change his chakra signature to distract them. He could also sense Naruto's approach easily before he started molding chakra, and most impressively. Was able to pinpoint Kabuto's exact location through a sensor-proof barrier when literally no one else in the entire Edo Tensei and Shinobi Alliance could do it. Yet, when he engages in battle with Naruto, B, and Itachi. He forgets that Itachi exists) so that he could make Itachi come in and save the day and look good.

"Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb." Orochimaru isn't actually dumb, but he makes him act that way around Sharingan.

"Writer Induced Stupidity. It's when the writer does something stupid like randomly gives the character a new power without an explanation or ignores continuity." Like when he gave Itachi that asspull Izanami that was a magical perfect counter to Kabuto to make him look good again. Or how Fushi Tensei is somehow able to be countered by the Sharingan, when it isn't even a damn genjutsu. Which is one of the many things that earned it the name "Sharingan Ex Machina".

What you're experiencing is Itachi Wanking Syndrome, an ailment that Kishi himself created that later spread throughout his fanbase. In which everyone views Itachi on such a high pedastal, because of Kishi's consistent bullshit and poor writing to make Itachi look like a God and fuck Orochimaru over (and others) at every turn. Well we look past that, and examine the rest of his series and what you can easily get from that is Orochimaru is realistically > Itachi. If you still aren't convinced, then I wont bother replying again because you clearly wont understand.

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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Orochimaru outright stated that he left the organization because of Itachi's strength which is why he admitted inferiority and yet people think he was referring to his Weakened self. Flat out denial.


And Sasuke also left Konoha because he was weaker than itachi. I guess you still believe that itachi is stronger than him? 

We know for a fact that Oro got stronger. Now he is simply way stronger than Itachi.


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> A man who was initially going to be chosen over Minato (because Minato is factually far above Itachi) to be Hokage being weaker than Itachi makes no fucking sense


It would only make no sense if A) Orochimaru and Minato were ever in competition for the Hokage seat, which is something you can't prove. I don't find it likely, given Jiraiya was Minato's sensei so there is a discernible generational gap to consider. Naruto and Kakashi are prime examples of this. B) Being stronger doesn't make one more qualified to be the Hokage, especially if one is very young. Naruto and Kakashi are also prime examples of this. Of course, you can bring up Hiruzen at 15 but that doesn't apply as strongly to this case as he wasn't comparable to others (mentors, friends) that we know of in his era for Sandaime.

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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2016)

2016 and people still don't get how techniques stack up and how knowledge is important 

Itachi , Sasuke and orochimaru 

All agree itachi >orochimaru 

Because itachi has full knowledge of oro and has already said his eyes allow him to see through all oro techniques which believe it or not they do . Itachi abilities are very hard counters to oro 

Now Jiriaya could be > itachi that's an entirely separate unrelated issues 

Because unlike oro , Jiriaya techniques, I.E sound based actually by pass susanoo as shown in the manga 

Jiriaya even conveniently had a fire sealing scroll and achieved SM and has a motion barrier which as shown at least helps with dealing with genjutsu by fighting without making eye contact 

Oro doesn't have these things that allow him to deal with itachi 

While oro could be > Jiriaya though DB, Feats and hype disagree 

Those comparisons are separate entities 

The major flaw is when one thinks all the sanin are at the same level or even close

Would be like saying the akatsuki are at the same level


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 13, 2016)

Through very simple feats Orochimaru can win. 
Like I initially said:


HandfullofNaruto said:


> _Defense for Orochimaru:_
> *
> Sharingan Genjutsu/Tsukyomi*: Manda can keep Orochimaru out of range. ET can perform partner method. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact. Knowledge is full for him after all. That's four counters to Genjutsu: Manda, ET, Eye Contact, Knowlege.
> *Amaterasu*: Oral Rebirth.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2016)

lets evaluate counters people believe orochimaru has

- partner method requires a partner i.e a summon for example to inject chakra into oro. Manda nor any snake summon has shown the ability to do this

- ET can do this. (Though its a lot easier for itachi to control the ET with genjutsu or you know use tskuyomi to have oro release the technique)

avoiding eye contact. How exactly? he cannot fight in retreat nor does he have a barrier to track his enemies movement without reliance on his eyes

Using manda to be out of range of genjutsu would make sense if itachi crows couldn't cast genjutsu, those things can fly. makes range always very easy to achieve

Orochimaru counters to Susanoo

- mandara no jin ?? how exactly, its a sea of snakes. how are they getting under it? or is the assumption they can overwhelm Susanoo. if so 

- underground attacks. logical strategy, so much so itachi can easily expect its orochimaru only viable point of attack. thus making it easier to dodge

Counters to tskuyomi? none if it lands its the end

Amaterasu gets trolled. we know this

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And Sasuke also left Konoha because he was weaker than itachi. I guess you still believe that itachi is stronger than him?
> 
> We know for a fact that Oro got stronger. Now he is simply way stronger than Itachi.



 And we know that Itachi got stronger since he was 13 years old. 

 Funny how manga clearly depicts that scenario where Orochimaru was fodderized by 13 year old Itachi to prove that he was inferior to Itachi. Kishimoto > Clown.


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And we know that Itachi got stronger since he was 13 years old.
> 
> Funny how manga clearly depicts that scenario where Orochimaru was fodderized by 13 year old Itachi to prove that he was inferior to Itachi. Kishimoto > Clown.


Itachi was 15-16 tho, not 13. 

Also, can you explain to us the "itachi got stronger part"?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Itachi was 15-16 tho, not 13.
> 
> Also, can you explain to us the "itachi got stronger part"?



 Nah, he was 13 years old.

 And no, it doesn't need to be explained considering Itachi wasn't in his Prime.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> lets evaluate counters people believe orochimaru has


 Yes, let's.



> - partner method requires a partner i.e a summon for example to inject chakra into oro. Manda nor any snake summon has shown the ability to do this


 Never said this.



> - ET can do this. (Though its a lot easier for itachi to control the ET with genjutsu or you know use tskuyomi to have oro release the technique)


 Orochimaru has the ability to to inject his chakra into the ET so Genjutsu won't work my man.



> avoiding eye contact. How exactly? he cannot fight in retreat nor does he have a barrier to track his enemies movement without reliance on his eyes


 Avoiding eye contact by not looking at his eyes. He has no need to look at Itachis eyes lol. He's not going to be getting CQC. He can look at Itachi, just not into his eyes. Also if you must know. Leech All Creation can keep Orochimaru safe from any attacks Itachi might have while his summons fight, he just waits for an opening and attacks.



> Using manda to be out of range of genjutsu would make sense if itachi crows couldn't cast genjutsu, those things can fly. makes range always very easy to achieve


 As soon as Manda is summoned Orochimaru is going for an underground attack.



> Orochimaru counters to Susanoo
> - mandara no jin ?? how exactly, its a sea of snakes. how are they getting under it? or is the assumption they can overwhelm Susanoo. if so


 Mandara no Jin will have to be dealt with, it also hides the fact Orochimaru is about to attack from underground since Sharingan cannot see through that wall of snakes.



> - underground attacks. logical strategy, so much so itachi can easily expect its orochimaru only viable point of attack. thus making it easier to dodge


 Dodge four opponents? Because while Manda & Orochimaru attack from underground Itachi will have to be dealing with ET.



> Counters to tskuyomi? none if it lands its the end


 Couldn't possibly land. If it does he takes the pain like a fucking man! lol. Oral Rebirth may also work since it's regeneration and he's used under abnormal circumstances. Kabuto stabbed him to death with a chakra scalpel. He used it multiple times when fighting KN4. The DB even says "the technique can seemingly be used no matter how serious the injury". Whatever though I'm not gonna argue how Oral Rebirth can possibly heal Tsukyomi effects, I'll stick with it never landing since it's more likely.



> Amaterasu gets trolled. we know this


Yep.

*Now just to clean that all up a little bit:* Manda is way larger than Susanoo and has the ability to keep Orochimaru out of Genjutsu range. Even though Itachi can cast a Genjutsu with a crow @Icegaze.

Orochimaru has the ability to inject chakra into an ET, so Genjustu on an ET would just be a waste. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact by not getting CQC which is pretty easy. He also has Jutsu that can be used to avoid Itachi completely like Rashoman & LAC. He could LAC into a Rashoman that's just silly though lol.

Once Manda is summoned, he can attack from underground, and if you look at Jiraiya compared to Gammabunta.. Then Mandas mouth compared to Gammabunta.
 Now compare Susanoo to Mandas mouth. Itachi can't exactly side step this lol.

As for Tsukyomi its possibly tanked with Oral Rebirth as silly as that might sound,  Now you can see Kabuto using a chakra scalpel to basically behead Orochimaru. You even see his eye fade out like it does when someone dies so Orochimarus body was technically dead right here. Yet he was able to use Oral Rebirth to heal completely 100%. He's also taken on:  without oral rebirth in a failing body with no arms. Even inside Itachis "Paralysis Genjutsu" he was able to move is arms. The damage Tsukyomi has shown is nothing compared to these. It's more of a psychological torture which I dont see hurting Orochimaru all that much. Worst case:  Itachi gets poisoned, then killed.

*Edit: Reply or Concede.*


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nah, he was 13 years old.
> 
> And no, it doesn't need to be explained considering Itachi wasn't in his Prime.


No he was not. 

4th Databook


> Around 7 Years Ago: Confrontation with Orochimaru, targeting the Sharingan…!! Turning the tables on Orochimaru’s attack aiming for the Sharingan. Orochimaru withdrew from Akatsuki for that chance.



Itachi died at 21
21 - 7 = 14

Now, one of those years he was dead, so his age did not increase obviously and that's at least 1 year
so he was 15 at least. 


- Lol, no, he was in his prime. After that his situation got only worse with his eye getting weaker and weaker.


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## Matty (Jun 13, 2016)

It doesn't surprise me that Itachi was that strong at that age. Naruto and Sasuke were 15 when becoming badasses themselves right?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> No he was not.
> 
> 4th Databook
> 
> ...



4th Databook occurred after Orochimaru's defeat was shown when Itachi was drawn to be 13 years old at the time.




> - Lol, no, he was in his prime. After that his situation got only worse with his eye getting weaker and weaker.



Yeah, we don't know when his body started deteriorating. That's just your own baseless assumption.


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> 4th Databook occurred after Orochimaru's defeat was shown when Itachi was drawn to be 13 years old at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- The databook says he was 15-16, what's so hard to understand? Also, Wasn't Itachi an ANBU captain at 13?
So, he was not at the Akatsuki. 

- We know for a fact that after using the MS it starts to get weaker after each use. It's not an assumption, it's a fact. On the other hand, your argument is a baseless assumption of him getting stronger. Itachi's power is almost entirely based on his MS jutsu, and they are pretty much the same, so how did you come to the conclusion that he became stronger?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - We know for a fact that after using the MS it starts to get weaker after each use. It's an assumption, it's a fact.





> It's an assumption, it's a fact


What the hell.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1 | Creative 1


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> What the hell.


Not*

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - The databook says he was 15-16, what's so hard to understand? Also, Wasn't Itachi an ANBU captain at 13?
> So, he was not at the Akatsuki.



And he left right at the age of 13.

I understand what Databook 4 stated, but that's obviously not what he had in mind at the time when he drew Orochimaru's defeat at the hands of Itachi. Is that really that hard to comprehend?



> We know for a fact that after using the MS it starts to get weaker after each use. It's not an assumption, it's a fact. On the other hand, your argument is a baseless assumption of him getting stronger. Itachi's power is almost entirely based on his MS jutsu, and they are pretty much the same, so how did you come to the conclusion that he became stronger?



No, I meant the fact that he grew weaker after he defeated Orochimaru is a baseless assumption. We don't know how often he used the Mangekyo and quite frankly, Kakashi who is closer to his Prime than Itachi is grew progressively stronger despite not being an Uchiha and suffering from MS drawbacks more bacause of that, so Itachi who isn't even close to his Prime suddenly getting weaker from just using the MS? Yeah, doubtful.

 And aside from that, Itachi's power isn't entirely based around his MS jutsu, that's such a silly conclusion you came up with.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And he left right at the age of 13.
> 
> I understand what Databook 4 stated, but that's obviously not what he had in mind at the time when he drew Orochimaru's defeat at the hands of Itachi. Is that really that hard to comprehend?
> 
> ...



- It does not matter what he "had in mind" Kishi retcons stuff every second. What matters is the last thing, and the last information we have is the 4th Databook. Itachi was 15-16. Get over it. 

- Kakashi got stronger for a really short time with other people's chakra like Naruto's chakra or Obito's chakra. This is not the same case with itachi whose power is mainly from the MS. Like did the amatersu get hotter or something? No, they are the same throughout his life since the second he awoke the MS.

- Lol, yes itachi's power is entirely based on his MS, what else does he have? Pitiful level C-rank fire jutsu? 
Even his MS's jutsu are extremely over-wanked with the irrational Amaterasu GG...etc which make people put him 1 or 2 tiers above his actual level.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - It does not matter what he "had in mind" Kishi retcons stuff every second. What matters is the last thing, and the last information we have is the 4th Databook. Itachi was 15-16. Get over it.



Certainly it does because he depicted 13 year old Itachi as being strong enough to take down a Sannin. It doesn't matter if that's what was retconned because this is what Kishimoto wants us to believe when he wrote it.



> - Kakashi got stronger for a really short time with other people's chakra like Naruto's chakra or Obito's chakra. This is not the same case with itachi whose power is mainly from the MS. Like did the amatersu get hotter or something? No, they are the same throughout his life since the second he awoke the MS.



No he didn't. He greatly improved without Naruto's or Obito's chakra unless you're saying that his ability to use Kamui, Kage Bunshins, and multiple Raikiris in a short period of time without additional chakra is suddenly not a significant improvement because it very much is.



> Lol, yes itachi's power is entirely based on his MS, what else does he have? Pitiful level C-rank fire jutsu?
> Even his MS's jutsu are extremely over-wanked with the irrational Amaterasu GG...etc which make people put him 1 or 2 tiers above his actual level.



Rank has nothing to do with his level of ninjutsu or else you're implying that Hiruzen's techniques are utter shit as some of them are C and D Rank yet we saw what he did against Spiral Zetsu's Buddha.

But no, his MS techniques are not all he has. He easily could contend with both Kurenai and Part 1 Kakashi on his debut and trashed Orochimaru with mere Sharingan genjutsu which is clear that Kishimoto depicted him as very powerful without his Mangekyo. For the most part, Itachi uses his Mangekyo very sparingly. Only situation where he didn't was against Kabuto, but there were obviously different circumstances involved.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

*Itachi joined Akatsuki when he was about 11-years-old. Almost two years before the Uchiha massacre.*




*Akatsuki-Oro-Itachi Timeline*



*Note: AD = After the Fourth's Death*


*0 AD *
Kyuubi no Kitsune attacks Konoha. Naruto is born. Minato pwns Kitsune.

*2 AD*
Itachi graduates as the best in the Academy at the age of 7


*3 AD*
Itachi masters the sharingan at the age of 8

*5 AD*
Itachi turns 10 and becomes a Chuunin.
*Itachi meets Madara and becomes Madara's student. 
Itachi's personality changes because of Madara's influence and teachings. *

*5.5 AD*
Itachi officially becomes an Anbu squad member.
*Itachi becomes a double-agent for Uchiha and the Leaf.*

*6 AD
Itachi turns 11 and becomes a member of Akatsuki. *
Orochimaru tries to take Itachi as his host.
Orochimaru fails, has his hand cut off and quits Akatsuki.

*Spoiler*:




*8 AD*
Itachi turns 13 and becomes ANBU captain. (In retrospect, he didn't hold the position long...)



*Later in that year - The Uchiha clan is slaughtered by Madara and Itachi.*
Itachi leaves Konoha and became a missing nin.

*23 July 8 AD*. Uchiha Sasuke turns 8.



*9 AD*
Three years are up and Orochimaru takes takes an unknown woman as his second host.


*12 AD*
Start of Naruto. 12 year old Naruto finally graduates.


*13 AD*

1) Orochimaru attacks Konoha. Tries to make Sasuke his third host. Fails again and uses one of his prisoners.
2) Itachi and Kisame try to capture Naruto, but fail. Zetsu makes his appearance.
3) Jiraiya promises to teach Naruto, but leaves for three months first. When he returns, he and Naruto go off for training at 13.....
4) Akatsuki gathers and agrees to wait for three years... Chapter says, "their ambition... if they include the Kyuubi...everything will be in their hands..."


*16 AD*
1) Naruto returns to Konoha at age 15 and a half....
2) Akatsuki gathers to rip Ichibi out of Gaara. Deidara and Tobi capture Sanbi. Hidan and Kakuzu capture Niibi Kisame captures Yonbi, bringing Akatsuki's total to seven tailed beasts...
3) Orochimaru prepares for Sasuke to become his fourth host, but is taken over by Sasuke.
4) The plot continues...



Alright, somethings you might say about my revelation:

*This is some typo or mistranslation.* Who mistranslates numbers? lol.....

*Spoiler*:



There are now two incidents of retrospect: One from Sasori and one from Kisame. When Sasori said Orochimaru left 7 years ago, Itachi was 18.

*Spoiler*:



When Kisame says "It's been over ten years," in Chapter 353, Itachi is 21. There is no mistranslation. It is consistent.

*Itachi was not 18 when he tried to kidnap Naruto. He had to have been older.* No, he was. He was 17 when the manga started, and 18 when the Part 1 ended. So says the Databook. If you believe that the Databook is incorrect about something as simple as characters ages, then the manga has plenty of evidence toward Itachi's age.

Sasuke was about to turn 8 ...... Itachi was 13 when Itachi murdered everyone.


This means that Sasuke was 13 and Itachi was 18 when he tried to kidnap Naruto.

*Why would Itachi join Akatsuki at 11?! It makes no sense!* The motivations and secrets of characters are the plot twists that make stories enjoyable. Not understanding the reasoning right now does not mean that the information is false. Up until Chapter 242, we didn't know how Kakashi had a Sharingan, but that didn't mean he didn't have one.

*Are you trying to say that Orochimaru was beaten by an 11-year-old chuunin?!* Yes. And it makes perfect sense. How long had Sasuke had Sharingan when Orochimaru tried to take his body? 3 years. How long had Itachi had Sharingan when Orochimaru tried to take his body? 3 years. Itachi and Sasuke had both had the same amount of experience with Sharingan and were at the same level of development. And Orochimaru received the same punishment for trying to take their bodies.

*Well.... Orochimaru must have left Akatsuki years ago, before Itachi came, but snuck back when he heard Itachi joined to take his body.* Orochimaru says he left because of Itachi, time and time again... So do other characters. Please do not try to rearrange the sequence of events to make Itachi join Akatsuki at 13 or 14... The numbers don't lie.


*Spoiler*:



Jiraiya even said that when Orochimaru joined, Itachi was a member...(Manga Proof: Chapter 143 pages 3-7) And we recently see Itachi recruiting Orochimaru's replacement, Deidara!

*Well then, Itachi must have been spying on Akatsuki for Konoha and* --- Stop right there. Konoha did not know Akatsuki existed 10 years ago. Jiraiya knew, because he followed Orochimaru, but not Konoha. And Jiraiya did not tell Konoha until years later when he came back. (See above Manga Proof) Not very smart on the hermit's side, but that doesn't mean it isn't the truth. And once again, Jiraiya was the one who informed Konoha that Itachi was even a member of Akatsuki.

*So then, Itachi was in Akatsuki and ANBU at the same time? And no one noticed?* Yes. According to Itachi's father and clansmen, when Itachi entered ANBU his personality completely changed. He started being difficult to talk to and aloof. This is months after he entered Akatsuki...


It is in this year that Itachi also goes on many "secret missions".... He never even bothers saying that they are ANBU.... Honest and candid until the end, Itachi..... Itachi flakes on responsibilities in his clan.... He then lectures Sasuke on the Purpose of the Shinobi.


Itachi says, _"Shinobi usually live as hated people... To have strength means you become isolated and arrogant... Although at first, you only sought what you have dreamed for... "_ Sounds pretty somber for a kid who was still a chuunin until that morning...

"Shinobi are tools, hated naturally for their very purpose: War." A speech that I don't mind saying was almost identical to Pain's speech to Hidan a decade later......( Chapter 329 pages 8-15 )



*It is the same sort of speech he gave to Hidan. *

*Itachi became a chuunin at 10.* He was finally able to leave the village for missions. _Somewhere, at some time, somehow he meets Madara._*The Police Force was created by an ancestor of the Uchiha. Itachi and Sasuke discuss this when Itachi was atleast 10.5 years old and has been a chuunin for 6 months. Itachi then tries to flake on a mission with his father. *

*Itachi is officially hired by ANBU at 10.5 years, 6 months after becoming a chuunin. *But Itachi has changed since the time he was a chuunin. He is colder to his parents. He talks about *secret missions *that he has to go on and he sees his line of work as something that is naturally feared and hated.

*By 11, Itachi has become member of Akatsuki.* Orochimaru sees a promising youth in Itachi and tries to take his body using the Immortality Method he just perfected. It fails and Itachi chops off his hand.


Months pass. Itachi ranks high in ANBU. Itachi finds a secret room in his clan's temple, where a forbidden scroll is kept. It is about the true purpose of the Sharingan. With the information in these scrolls Itachi gains the unsightly power of MS.* 

Itachi expresses his feeling towards being a shinobi. "Am i unpleasant? Shinobi are hated people. To be strong is to be isolated." *He then proceeds to kill every member of his family except for his own younger brother, to whom he expresses respect for his brother's deep rooted hatred of him. "In order to reach the height of my capacity, I've lost all hope for this pathetic clan." Itachi mocks his clan for not reaching their capacity.

*One month after his 13th birthday*, Itachi walks away from his home as a member of Akatsuki.


*I don't believe you.* Well... That just isn't my problem. 



*Taken from user - Kiroisenko.  (Only thing I agree with is age though)*

Reactions: Useful 1 | Creative 2 | Optimistic 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

*Reply or Concede*

Manda is way larger than Susanoo and has the ability to keep Orochimaru out of Genjutsu range. Even though Itachi can cast a Genjutsu with a crow @Icegaze.
Orochimarus Edo Tensei can break him out of Genjustu via partner method, this is if Genjustu is ever even landed. Also, Orochimaru has the ability to inject chakra into an ET, so Genjustu on an ET would just be a waste. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact by not getting CQC which would be pretty easy. He also has Jutsu that can be used to avoid Itachi completely like Rashoman & LAC. He could LAC into a Rashoman if he wanted but that's just silly, lol.
Once Manda is summoned, he can attack from underground, and if you look at Jiraiya compared to Gammabunta.. Then Mandas mouth compared to Gammabunta.
*Spoiler*: __ 







Now compare Susanoo to Mandas mouth. Itachi can't exactly side step this lol. Also not to mention, Amaterasu is countered with skin shedding and Genjutsu on Manda can be broken since Orochimaru is standing on Mandas head. As for Tsukyomi its possibly tanked with Oral Rebirth as silly as that might sound,

*Spoiler*: __ 







Now you can see Kabuto using a chakra scalpel to basically behead Orochimaru. You even see his eye fade out like it does when someone dies so Orochimarus body was technically dead right here. Yet he was able to use Oral Rebirth to heal completely 100%. He's also taken on:

*Spoiler*: __ 







without oral rebirth in a failing body with no arms. Even inside Itachis "Paralysis Genjutsu" he was able to move is arms. The damage Tsukyomi has shown is nothing compared to these. It's more of a psychological torture which I dont see hurting Orochimaru all that much. Worst case:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Itachi gets poisoned, then killed.
So to sum up:
*Shuriken/Katon*:Tobirama, Hashirama, FOD Snakes, Mandara no Jin, Rashomon, LAC, Oral Rebirth, tanked.
*Genjutsu*: Edo Tensei Partner method, Edo Tensei immunity to Genjutsu, Manda, LAC, no eye contact.
*Amaterasu*: Oral Rebirth, Manda.
*Tsukyomi*: Oral Rebirth, completely avoided.
*Susanoo*: Manda, Edo Tensei, Underground attacks with Kusanagi, Mandara no Jin, Rashoman, Fluids from the great white snake etc. etc. @Kai
@Gin Ichimaru
*Reply or Concede. @Turrin
@sanninme rikudo @Sapherosth @Matty @Eliyua23 @UchihaX28 

Spoiler:  



As for you who are only interested in the unrelated Manga Quotes: 


*
*Spoiler*: __ 



The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.)
Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect.
Literal vs Non literal that is why our quote has value and yours is doo-doo.
but honestly fuck the quotes, I'm just giving you a straight answer. I don't even value the quotes in this argument personally. I stick to theory not manga.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2016)

Manda gets genjutsu raped within a heartbeat. Which actually happened in the manga, and it was executed by a weaker character.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manda gets genjutsu raped within a heartbeat. Which actually happened in the manga, and it was executed by a weaker character.





Yeah, but for some reason Orochimaru will recognise that Manda is in a genjutsu and break him out of it instantly though 

Does putting chakra into Manda even help him though? I'd like to see a panel of someone breaking a summon from genjutsu.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manda gets genjutsu raped within a heartbeat. Which actually happened in the manga, and it was executed by a weaker character.


I already explained many times in the past, that ...

*Spoiler*: _Sasuke was the one who summoned Manda, so was instantly in Genjutsu range_ 










*Spoiler*: _Itachi is not summoning Manda. He is just a small fry on the ground who could not hope to make eye contact._ 




How would Itachi make eye contact with Manda when his head is at this proximity of Itachi
If Shizune had sharingan, would she be able to make eye contact with these snakes? No

This snake is as tall as a castle



When not using their full length, these snakes are twice the height of Konoha

And all of those snakes are smaller than Manda

A summon much smaller than Manda (Manda is already bigger, but can access greater heights by using the length of his tail like those 2 snakes from the Sannin Fight, chapter 166) made a huge forest look like a patch of grass. in that scenario, Itachi would be at the bottom of the gargantuan trees. So how would he make eye contact.

This is Manda's full length

He is taller than Gamabunta with just his head + his neck, no tail included

So Itachi is not making eye-contact. There is not enough proximity. He needs this proximity to land a Genjutsu




You're actually so ignorant. Do you know that?



Sapherosth said:


> Yeah, but for some reason Orochimaru will recognise that Manda is in a genjutsu and break him out of it instantly though


He will see Manda's snake eyes now look like Sharingan. And also, if he stops attacking Itachi (because he is under control), Orochimaru would know something is up anyway.



> Does putting chakra into Manda even help him though? I'd like to see a panel of someone breaking a summon from genjutsu.


Yes it does help you ignorant, arrogant, blatant-falsity spouter. You don't need a panel. It was stated in the manga that it could happen.
*Spoiler*: __ 









From now on, if anyone states that something that is a blatant falsity, I will just cross it out when i quote the message, and not reply. Is that clear?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> I already explained many times in the past, that ...
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Sasuke was the one who summoned Manda, so was instantly in Genjutsu range_
> 
> ...


Lots of words and 0 substance.

It is a common misconception that sharingan genjutsu only works from point blank range.

Sasuke cast it on Deidara from at least 15-20  meters : 1 1 1

Neither Orochimaru nor Manda can fight from long range. They have nothing that works from long range. They will have to get close at some point. Or alternatively, Itachi can close the distance before they can do shit :
1
Itachi toys with them and proceeds to rape.



> You're actually so ignorant. Do you know that?



You are so full of shit. Did you know that ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The last 6 words in your entire post just sums up how shit it is....





> "I stick to theory not manga". Pretty much saying "Fuck Kishi, I believe what i want".


 Theory based on manga. I'm not gonna sit and argue with you what was happening within the manga that's just absolutely stupid. The battledome is meant for hypothetical fights! There is nothing we can discuss about Kishi's plot. You're just avoiding the argument.



> Oh yeah...Nobody wants to reply to you because we can't be asked to write a fucking essay on how wrong you are.


 I would never ask you to do that, I already know you're incapable.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lots of words and 0 substance.


 Thanks for the warning.



> It is a common misconception that sharingan genjutsu only works from point blank range. Sasuke cast it on Deidara from at least 15-20  meters : As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi


 Like I said before, Orochimaru has several ways to avoid Genjutsu. Even if Itachi gets in range. Which he won't.



> Neither Orochimaru nor Manda can fight from long range. They have nothing that works from long range. They will have to get close at some point. Or alternatively, Itachi can close the distance before they can do shit :
> As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi
> Itachi toys with them and proceeds to rape.


 So Itachi gets behind them..? Rapes them from there on because he got behind him lol? Since when was, getting behind an opponent = rape? All I saw was Itachi being controlled by Kabuto, and KCM Naruto & Bee keeping up flawlessly even after being caught in a Genjutsu.

If Manda & Orochimaru get close its going to be: Without two Sannin & their boss summons, Itachi can't handle that.



> You are so full of shit. Did you know that ?



Basically your argument is:
Genjutsu can be used at 15-20 meters. Itachi can get behind them. 
*Spoiler*: __ 




*Reply or Concede*

Manda is way larger than Susanoo and has the ability to keep Orochimaru out of Genjutsu range. Even though Itachi can cast a Genjutsu with a crow @Icegaze.
Orochimarus Edo Tensei can break him out of Genjustu via partner method, this is if Genjustu is ever even landed. Also, Orochimaru has the ability to inject chakra into an ET, so Genjustu on an ET would just be a waste. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact by not getting CQC which would be pretty easy. He also has Jutsu that can be used to avoid Itachi completely like Rashoman & LAC. He could LAC into a Rashoman if he wanted but that's just silly, lol.
Once Manda is summoned, he can attack from underground, and if you look at Jiraiya compared to Gammabunta.. Then Mandas mouth compared to Gammabunta.
*Spoiler*: __ 







Now compare Susanoo to Mandas mouth. Itachi can't exactly side step this lol. Also not to mention, Amaterasu is countered with skin shedding and Genjutsu on Manda can be broken since Orochimaru is standing on Mandas head. As for Tsukyomi its possibly tanked with Oral Rebirth as silly as that might sound,

*Spoiler*: __ 







Now you can see Kabuto using a chakra scalpel to basically behead Orochimaru. You even see his eye fade out like it does when someone dies so Orochimarus body was technically dead right here. Yet he was able to use Oral Rebirth to heal completely 100%. He's also taken on:

*Spoiler*: __ 







without oral rebirth in a failing body with no arms. Even inside Itachis "Paralysis Genjutsu" he was able to move is arms. The damage Tsukyomi has shown is nothing compared to these. It's more of a psychological torture which I dont see hurting Orochimaru all that much. Worst case:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Itachi gets poisoned, then killed.
So to sum up:
*Shuriken/Katon*:Tobirama, Hashirama, FOD Snakes, Mandara no Jin, Rashomon, LAC, Oral Rebirth, tanked.
*Genjutsu*: Edo Tensei Partner method, Edo Tensei immunity to Genjutsu, Manda, LAC, no eye contact.
*Amaterasu*: Oral Rebirth, Manda.
*Tsukyomi*: Oral Rebirth, completely avoided.
*Susanoo*: Manda, Edo Tensei, Underground attacks with Kusanagi, Mandara no Jin, Rashoman, Fluids from the great white snake etc. etc. @Kai
@Gin Ichimaru
*Reply or Concede. @Turrin
@sanninme rikudo @Sapherosth @Matty @Eliyua23 @UchihaX28 

Spoiler:  



As for you who are only interested in the unrelated Manga Quotes: 


*
*Spoiler*: __ 



The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.)
Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect.
Literal vs Non literal that is why our quote has value and yours is doo-doo.
but honestly fuck the quotes, I'm just giving you a straight answer. I don't even value the quotes in this argument personally. I stick to theory not manga.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Really, even you?
> I figured even you could at least see the error in his post. Whatever though, I've already accepted your concession.



Yes, Manda was canonically taken down by a Weakened Hebi Sasuke * instantaneously *, so Itachi should have no trouble dealing with it. Orochimaru's Hydra is also the strongest technique Orochimaru has according to the Databook and yet Itachi effortlessly sliced through all of its heads and pierced through Orochimaru in an instant. Itachi has no problem with Manda and it's an insult to suggest that one of the stronger members of the Akatsuki, an organization that specialize in handling Bijuu, would have trouble against Manda.

To suggest such a thing is actually rather ridiculous, especially when the Uchiha are one of the most specialized in subduing Bijuu in the first place and Manda is by far, weaker than Bijuu.

 The best argument you guys have is that it's Plot-Induced Stupidity that Orochimaru is weaker than Itachi even though it's been stated several times throughout the manga. It's such a lazy argument that I'm not going to entertain it if you think it's as simple as "PIS".

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mithos (Jun 14, 2016)

Manda was also caught completely off-guard by being attacked by his summoner the moment he appeared on the battlefield. 

But sure, let's all just ignore the context of the scene.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yes, Manda was canonically taken down by a Weakened Hebi Sasuke * instantaneously*, so Itachi should have no trouble dealing with it. Orochimaru's Hydra is also the strongest technique Orochimaru has according to the Databook and yet Itachi effortlessly sliced through all of its heads and pierced through Orochimaru in an instant.


 Yes I know Manda was summoned to tank C0. Once again, Sasuke used Genjutsu on Manda because he is the one who summoned him, therefore he was in immediate Genjutsu range. Hydra pales in comparison to Manda where size and feats are concerned. Same with Edo Tensei. (Databook be damned!)



> Itachi has no problem with Manda and it's an insult to suggest that one of the stronger members of the Akatsuki, an organization that specialize in handling Bijuu, would have trouble against Manda. To suggest such a thing is actually rather ridiculous, especially when the Uchiha are one of the most specialized in subduing Bijuu in the first place and Manda is by far, weaker than Bijuu.


 That's a good point but I'd like you to give me a play by play on exactly how Itachi takes down Manda since we've never seen him actually deal with Bijuu. Even the Akatsuki took Bijuu on in pairs. In the event Manda is absolutely useless and inflicts zero damage lol. It will be a good diversion for Orochimaru to prep ET. Honestly though Manda has feats against characters that, whether you agree or not, have at least comparable strength to Itachi. (Tsunade, Jiraiya, Katsuyu, Gammabunta.) 

Manda got almost no help from Orochimaru whereas Jiraiya and Gammabunta attacked together, Katsuyu used acid, saved Naruto, almost acted as a diversion for Gamabunta but Manda was able to stop his attack. In the end, right when Jiraiya & Gammabunta were about to die Tsunade was able to stab him through the head with a giant sword which he survived!


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Manda was also caught completely off-guard by being attacked by his summoner the moment he appeared on the battlefield.
> 
> But sure, let's all just ignore the context of the scene.



 And how would that at all imply that Manda can counter Sasuke's Genjutsu?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Basically your argument is:



Genjutsu can be employed at any stage of the fight because Itachi has the mobility and speed to dance around them, and neither Manda nor Orochimaru can do shit about it. 

Also you can stop rambling about Manda's size. It is irrelevant. Itachi fought the bigger and stronger snake and won, with literally 0 difficulty : As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi

And before you start saying stupid shit like "but muh manda" let me just point you towards the databook description of "Yamata no Orochi"



> NINJUTSU; Yamata no jutsu (Eight-Branched Hydra technique*)
> User: Orochimaru
> Offensive; Defensive; Supplementary; Rank: S
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Genjutsu can be employed at any stage of the fight because Itachi has the mobility and speed to dance around them, and neither Manda nor Orochimaru can do shit about it.


 No that's not true. Me & @IzayaOrihara have already addressed this. Itachis speed against KCM Naruto & KB wasn't that impressive. KCM didn't even go on the offensive because Itachi is an ET and Kishi planned to break him out. He didn't even use a chakra limb, which was absolutely available. Bee tried to use slow ass Samehada lol. KB also could have attacked with tentacles, but no because plot. Itachi wasn't holding back, Kabuto had him under control so he couldn't hold back. 

My point is, his mobility and speed is useless when his opponent is way larger than him. Manda can be hundreds of feet in the air or hundreds of feet below ground. Genjustu isn't going to land that easily and if it somehow does, partner method.



> Also you can stop rambling about Manda's size. It is irrelevant. Itachi fought the bigger and stronger snake and won, with literally 0 difficulty : As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi And before you start saying stupid shit like "but muh manda" let me just point you towards the databook description of "Yamata no Orochi"


Okay so we're going by DB even though Manga clearly established this is false whatever. Check this out then:

Hydra:
 one Hydra mouth is as big as Orochimarus body.

Manda:  Susanoo fits on Aodas head like a crown. Aoda is smaller than Manda. Look at Mandas mouth compared to one Hydra mouth. You could fit twenty of those heads in Mandas mouth. 
Even if Hydra were Orochimarus strongest technique, it obviously isn't the strongest against Itachi, so he won't use it.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yes I know Manda was summoned to tank C0. Once again, Sasuke used Genjutsu on Manda because he is the one who summoned him, therefore he was in immediate Genjutsu range. Hydra pales in comparison to Manda where size and feats are concerned. Same with Edo Tensei. (Databook be damned!)



There is no range established. Itachi can manipulate people with Genjutsu outside of the Shinobi Alliance's sensors range which was something not even Shisui could do, so there being a range restriction for Itachi's Genjutsu shouldn't really be applicable in an actual battle secenario.

And no, Hydra is much larger than Manda. Why Manda appears bigger is because of Part 1's Scaling which differs from Part 2 where Gamabunta would tower over Konoha in Part 1 and yet is much smaller than Konoha in Part 2.



> That's a good point but I'd like you to give me a play by play on exactly how Itachi takes down Manda since we've never seen him actually deal with Bijuu. Even the Akatsuki took Bijuu on in pairs. In the event Manda is absolutely useless and inflicts zero damage lol. It will be a good diversion for Orochimaru to prep ET. Honestly though Manda has feats against characters that, whether you agree or not, have at least comparable strength to Itachi. (Tsunade, Jiraiya, Katsuyu, Gammabunta.)



Not really. Kisame and Pain were both anxious to take on their own Bijuu on their own lonesome, same applied to Deidara who took down Gaara by himself and Sasori who actually wanted to fight the Nine Tails all by himself. Likewise, Deidara also fought the 3 Tails on his own while Trollbito ran away like a clown. Akatsuki don't always take on Bijuu in Pairs, so this is quite frankly a moot point.

And no, Manda doesn't have feats that suggest that it's comparable to Itachi when he trashed a much stronger Snake effortlessly. Him using Edo Tensei is a good point, but what happens when they're manipulated with Genjutsu? 



> Manda got almost no help from Orochimaru whereas Jiraiya and Gammabunta attacked together, Katsuyu used acid, saved Naruto, almost acted as a diversion for Gamabunta but Manda was able to stop his attack. In the end, right when Jiraiya & Gammabunta were about to die Tsunade was able to stab him through the head with a giant sword which he survived!



Manda has the advantage against Gamabunta and Jiraiya due to a Snake's advantage against Toads and the fact that Katsuyu is more of a defensive and support unit rather than an offensive unit. This actually doesn't ignore the fact that Itachi is more than capable of handling Manda due to being a member of the Akatsuki and the fact that he canonically took down a much stronger snake in the form of Orochimaru's Hydra.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

*Please refrain from cherrypicking single lines out of the entirety of our arguments to make weak substance-less points with the sole intent of dismissing our position without providing any arguments. We put thought and effort into our responses , if you can't do the same it will be assumed you have nothing of merit to say . Thanks. *


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> There is no range established. Itachi can manipulate people with Genjutsu outside of the Shinobi Alliance's sensors range which was something not even Shisui could do, so there being a range restriction for Itachi's Genjutsu shouldn't really be applicable in an actual battle secenario.


 No established range?
*
Spoiler:  



Data
Classification 


*
*Spoiler*: __ 





  , Genjutsu, 
*Nature *


  Yin Release
*Class * Offensive, Supplementary
*Range * Short-range






> And no, Hydra is much larger than Manda. Why Manda appears bigger is because of Part 1's Scaling which differs from Part 2 where Gamabunta would tower over Konoha in Part 1 and yet is much smaller than Konoha in Part 2.



That's Gammabunta, not Manda. Manda has been summoned only twice and both times his size was consistent. To say that Hydras one appearance negates anything about Mandas size or power is .



> Not really. Kisame and Pain were both anxious to take on their own Bijuu on their own lonesome, same applied to Deidara who took down Gaara by himself and Sasori who actually wanted to fight the Nine Tails all by himself. Likewise, Deidara also fought the 3 Tails on his own while Trollbito ran away like a clown. Akatsuki don't always take on Bijuu in Pairs, so this is quite frankly a moot point.


 In regards to the Akatsuki statement, you're totally right. My bad.



> And no, Manda doesn't have feats that suggest that it's comparable to Itachi when he trashed a much stronger Snake effortlessly. Him using Edo Tensei is a good point, but what happens when they're manipulated with Genjutsu?


 You're point about Manda having zero feats because Hydra.. absolutely false.

Genjutsu can be countered by Orochimaru. He has the ability to insert his chakra into an ET.



> Manda has the advantage against Gamabunta and Jiraiya due to a Snake's advantage against Toads and the fact that Katsuyu is more of a defensive and support unit rather than an offensive unit. This actually doesn't ignore the fact that Itachi is more than capable of handling Manda due to being a member of the Akatsuki and the fact that he canonically took down a much stronger snake in the form of Orochimaru's Hydra.


 You're relying too much of your argument on why Itachi>Manda around his effortless defeat of Hydra which is crap because the Hydra DB statement has zero merit. The DB is valid when backed up by the manga. The stats about Hydra are not backed up by the manga at all.
Manda on the other hand is supported by the DB & the manga. Hydras defeat doesn't take away Mandas feats.

I'm still waiting for that play by play, Itachi being an Akatsuki doesn't automatically put him above Manda. Like I said before, we haven't seen him take down a Bijuu either, not that he couldn't but I would like to know how he would.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> No established range?
> *
> Spoiler:
> 
> ...



Grimmjow already contradicted this and if Itachi can maintain his genjutsu from significantly far distances, then he should logically be able to establish his genjutsu from a relatively far distance as well. For Itachi, the range of his Sharingan Genjutsu hasn't been established, but I thought you knew what I meant, but apparently you didn't. 



> That's Gammabunta, not Manda. Manda has been summoned only twice and both times his size was consistent. To say that Hydras one appearance negates anything about Mandas size or power is .



 The Gamabunta example was to show how Kishimoto's depiction of Boss Sized Summons have changed substantially. Manda is no exception to that rule.



> You're point about Manda having zero feats because Hydra.. absolutely false.
> 
> Genjutsu can be countered by Orochimaru. He has the ability to insert his chakra into an ET.



 I never stated that Manda doesn't have any feats, I stated that his feats alone cannot stack up to Itachi when he effortlessly dispatched Orochimaru's strongest technique that puts Manda to shame.



> You're relying too much of your argument on why Itachi>Manda around his effortless defeat of Hydra which is crap because the Hydra DB statement has zero merit. The DB is valid when backed up by the manga. The stats about Hydra are not backed up by the manga at all.
> Manda on the other hand is supported by the DB & the manga. Hydras defeat doesn't take away Mandas feats.



 Databook is supplemental evidence that fills in the gaps of what the manga does not which is clear when the Databook gives us extra info about one's backstory or the elements that they could use. There's absolutely no reason why this should not be used as evidence and I find it intellectually dishonest of you to rely on a Databook statement on Sharingan Genjutsu being close-range with nothing from the manga backing it up.



> I'm still waiting for that play by play, Itachi being an Akatsuki doesn't automatically put him above Manda. Like I said before, we haven't seen him take down a Bijuu either, not that he couldn't but I would like to know how he would.



 In most battle scenarios, we cannot predict how each fighter will react to one another, so we logically deduce who would win through multiple factors such as how their feats stack up and portrayal. Asking for a play by play doesn't at all refute my argument and it's rather silly making up a make-believe scenario to justify why either Itachi or Manda would win.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Grimmjow already contradicted this and if Itachi can maintain his genjutsu from significantly far distances, then he should logically be able to establish his genjutsu from a relatively far distance as well.


 I don't understand that. You're saying, since Itachi can put "A" nin inside a Genjutsu and send him far away, Itachi should also be able to inflict Genjutsu on "B" nin at a far distance since "A" nin stays effected at a long distance?



> For Itachi, the range of his Sharingan Genjutsu hasn't been established, but I thought you knew what I meant, but apparently you didn't.



We've only seen it used at short-range. I've never seen Itachi use Sharingan Genjustu at a long range even once. 



> The Gamabunta example was to show how Kishimoto's depiction of Boss Sized Summons have changed substantially. Manda is no exception to that rule.



No, that makes no sense considering War Arc summons are properly sized. Aoda who is smaller than Manda retains a size that's still larger than Hydra and Gammabunta.



> I never stated that Manda doesn't have any feats, I stated that his feats alone cannot stack up to Itachi when he effortlessly dispatched Orochimaru's strongest technique that puts Manda to shame.


 It's not Orochimarus strongest technique. You disregard Mandas feats because Itachi beat Hydra with little to no effort. You might as well say "Manda doesn't have any feats." I thought you knew what I meant but apparently you didn't.



> Databook is supplemental evidence that fills in the gaps of what the manga does not which is clear when the Databook gives us extra info about one's backstory or the elements that they could use. There's absolutely no reason why this should not be used as evidence and I find it intellectually dishonest of you to rely on a Databook statement on Sharingan Genjutsu being close-range with nothing from the manga backing it up.


 Manga > Databook.
Databook does fill in the gaps when they are needed. With Hydra & Manda there are no gaps. We've seen what they can do. Manda is obviously the better choice when facing Itachi. It's pure logic.

Also we've only seen Sharingan Genjutsu work at short-range. It's supported by the manga.



> In most battle scenarios, we cannot predict how each fighter will react to one another, so we logically deduce who would win through multiple factors such as how their feats stack up and portrayal. Asking for a play by play doesn't at all refute my argument and it's rather silly making up a make-believe scenario to justify why either Itachi or Manda would win.


 I've stated how Orochimaru counters all of Itachis techniques, even addressed the stupid quotes from the manga. None of that was countered. Instead it became "Manda gets done in by Genjutsu" because the rest of it can't be countered. Or you're all too lazy to counter it. Not providing a play by play because it doesn't refute your argument? Your argument is Genjutsu will land on Manda. If you can't  provide a play by play for that, lol. I can give you a reasonable play by play of how Orochimaru will win, that supported by manga and Databook.

Genjutsu isn't going to land on Manda. Manga says so, DB even says so.

Either address my entire argument or concede. I'm sick of arguing Manda vs Itachi, because Manda isn't Itachis only threat. We are getting way too off topic Imo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> No that's not true. Me & @IzayaOrihara have already addressed this. Itachis speed against KCM Naruto & KB wasn't that impressive.


Only if you think KCM Naruto and B's speeds and CQC prowess aren't impressive, which we know is incorrect.



> KCM didn't even go on the offensive because Itachi is an ET and Kishi planned to break him out. He didn't even use a chakra limb, which was absolutely available.


And Itachi didn't even use a Kunai or a shuriken which he excels at.



> Bee tried to use slow ass Samehada lol.


Do you have any evidence regaring Samehada's slow speed ? 



> KB also could have attacked with tentacles, but no because plot. Itachi wasn't holding back, Kabuto had him under control so he couldn't hold back.


Kirabi actually tried to attack with tentacles later on but he got Genjutsu'd.
No one was holding back in that encounter. They were just all feeling each other out like most fights start in this manga. But if you have evidence suggesting that they were deliberately holding back, acting slower than usual etc, be my guest and post the scans.



> My point is, his mobility and speed is useless when his opponent is way larger than him.


This is an incorrect assumption : 
As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi
As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi

Summons may have tremendous size advantage, but they also have a tremendous speed disadvantage. 
Manda will get casually danced around and trolled.

Even genin Naruto can almost dodge a dead angle attack coming from a giant snake.
As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi
As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi



> Manda can be hundreds of feet in the air or hundreds of feet below ground.


Which accomplishes nothing for him, so why would he do that ? He needs to be close to Itachi to be able to hurt him.



> and if it somehow does, partner method.


Even B got saved by the skin of his teeth and he pretty much has instantaneous defense thanks to his bijuu. 
As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi

Orochimaru can't instantly sense that Manda is controlled by genjutsu up until Manda actually turns on him which will be too late do anything to save him.



> Okay so we're going by DB even though Manga clearly established this is false whatever. Check this out then:
> 
> 
> Hydra:
> ...



Boss summon sizes keep getting retconned all the time.
As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi
Link removed

Earlier in the manga they were drawn alot bigger. So Manda should be the same size as Aoda and is stated to be smaller than Yamata, which he should be when you account in Yamata's body as a whole instead of looking at its individual heads.

Manda's mouth doesn't matter here. What matters is the radious of his neck. It is much much smaller compared to its open mouth as we all know pythons can swallow prey 8 times their size due to their jaw anathomy.

And look at the size of Sasuke's arrow in that scan you posted.
That should be comparable to the length of the extended Totsuka : Link removed
Which is long enough to decapitate 2 Aoda sized snakes with a clean swipe to the neck.

Manda gets fucked. Not that Itachi needs Susano'O to battle it, but if it came down to it, it wouldn't last more than 1 panel.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jun 14, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Yeah, but for some reason Orochimaru will recognise that Manda is in a genjutsu and break him out of it instantly though
> 
> Does putting chakra into Manda even help him though? I'd like to see a panel of someone breaking a summon from genjutsu.



I would assume a summoner could break genjutsu on their summon via the partner method, since the ability of summon animals to use jutsu suggests they have a chakra system. The problem is the time it would take to do so. It took both Sakura and Chiyo to break a non-Sharingan genjutsu cast by Itachi's 30%clone, and it seemed to take more than an instant to do so (since the Itachi clone and Kakashi had both moved and were in the midst of combat). Against a full-powered, non-jobbing Itachi, pausing long enough to break Manda out would probably result in Oro getting stabbed in the face (literally or metaphorically).

Honestly, I think Oro would be better off going for a guerilla-type strategy, though: make KBs and use LAC, maybe use MnJ to cover the battlefield in poisonous snakes, Kusanagi-snipe from cover, etc. Manda could be used as a distraction, but I don't know if he'd be cool with that--he seems much less obedient than other summons.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I don't understand that. You're saying, since Itachi can put "A" nin inside a Genjutsu and send him far away, Itachi should also be able to inflict Genjutsu on "B" nin at a far distance since "A" nin stays effected at a long distance?



This is not what I'm saying. It's not as simple as casting a Genjutsu and sending the user far away, it's being able to maintain that connection as well. If he can maintain that connection when his opponent is far away, there's no reason why he can't establish a connection when his opponent's farther away. The only reason why it's more effective at close-range is because it's easier to establish eye-contact at a closer-range, but that doesn't mean that has to be the case.



> We've only seen it used at short-range. I've never seen Itachi use Sharingan Genjustu at a long range even once.



Sharingan Genjutsu has been used from far distances such as what Sasuke did against Deidara or what he did against C and even, what Madara did against Kurama. There's absolutely no reason why Itachi can't use Genjutsu from long distances.



> No, that makes no sense considering War Arc summons are properly sized. Aoda who is smaller than Manda retains a size that's still larger than Hydra and Gammabunta.



Aoda being larger than Hydra is entirely baseless and quite frankly, you have nothing that even suggests that Summons in the War Arc were somehow drawn out to be the size that they were in Part 2. We see strange Size Scaling even in the War Arc, so they certainly weren't properly sized and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.



> It's not Orochimarus strongest technique. You disregard Mandas feats because Itachi beat Hydra with little to no effort. You might as well say "Manda doesn't have any feats." I thought you knew what I meant but apparently you didn't.



Because Hydra is a superior version of Manda essentially.

And yes, Hydra is Orochimaru's Strongest Technique unless you want to go against Kishimoto's words.



> Manga > Databook.
> Databook does fill in the gaps when they are needed. With Hydra & Manda there are no gaps. We've seen what they can do. Manda is obviously the better choice when facing Itachi. It's pure logic.
> 
> *Also we've only seen Sharingan Genjutsu work at short-range.* It's supported by the manga.



No we haven't. That's you being intellectually dishonest and quite frankly, that doesn't prove that this is an established fact, so I'll just take this as a concession now and move on.



> I've stated how Orochimaru counters all of Itachis techniques, even addressed the stupid quotes from the manga. None of that was countered. Instead it became "Manda gets done in by Genjutsu" because the rest of it can't be countered. Or you're all too lazy to counter it. Not providing a play by play because it doesn't refute your argument? Your argument is Genjutsu will land on Manda. If you can't  provide a play by play for that, lol. I can give you a reasonable play by play of how Orochimaru will win, that supported by manga and Databook.



Manda being done in by Genjutsu is exactly what happened in the manga. Your fanfiction is just that, fanfiction. It's not guaranteed that what you're suggesting is depicted as a counter to Itachi's techniques in Kishimoto's eyes yet Sharingan Genjutsu is because Manda and Orochimaru himself were done in by Genjutsu.



> Genjutsu isn't going to land on Manda. Manga says so, DB even says so.



So you're sticking with your narrow-minded attitude? All right, no point in debating then.



> Either address my entire argument or concede. I'm sick of arguing Manda vs Itachi, because Manda isn't Itachis only threat. We are getting way too off topic Imo.



I addressed your entire argument. You have nothing to stand on.

All you do is make up counters that Orochimaru has against Itachi when this isn't proven or depicted by the manga at all. Everything I have and everyone else has been providing comes straight from the manga, so there really is no point in addressing your fanfiction when manga has clearly shown otherwise.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 14, 2016)

You'll all have to excuse me for a moment. I'm preparing your reaponses but I don't have enough time right now. 

I'll be back on later.


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## Ishmael (Jun 14, 2016)

Just ask IzayaOrihara to invite you to his conversation were he proved Orochimaru> itachi. Also why Orochimaru will beat itachi. Orochimaru  has some seriously good counters against itachi believe it or not. The counters will honestly tire itachi out to the point we're not only his chakra would be damn near gone. But to the point we're if he uses the sharingan over and over he'll eventually go blind. Plus you have to accept the fact that we'll Orochimaru can summon manda and edo's, has oral rebirth to his disposal.

Might as well throw this in there, Itachi in part 1 used tsukuyomi twice and amaterasu once and the dude was tired. You got to think about what kisame said too, so yea yo im thinking healthy itachi only advantage over sick itachi is Susano'o usage won't kill him and yo Orochimaru probably won't even need an advantage like that to win


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

If Orochimaru has these counters, then why haven't we seen them in the manga?


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## Sapherosth (Jun 14, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Just ask IzayaOrihara to invite you to his conversation were he proved Orochimaru> itachi. Also why Orochimaru will beat itachi. Orochimaru  has some seriously good counters against itachi believe it or not. The counters will honestly tire itachi out to the point we're not only his chakra would be damn near gone. But to the point we're if he uses the sharingan over and over he'll eventually go blind. Plus you have to accept the fact that we'll Orochimaru can summon manda and edo's, has oral rebirth to his disposal.
> 
> Might as well throw this in there, Itachi in part 1 used tsukuyomi twice and amaterasu once and the dude was tired. You got to think about what kisame said too, so yea yo im thinking healthy itachi only advantage over sick itachi is Susano'o usage won't kill him and yo Orochimaru probably won't even need an advantage like that to win




Come on....the dude says Orochimaru will counter Itachi's Tsukuyomi with Oral rebirth and talks about how Orochimaru will attack Itachi from underground when we already know for a fact that Susano covers the bottom also. Additionally we've already seen Itachi dodge attacks from underground. 

Izaya doesn't know what he's talking about and he knows absolutely nothing about Itachi to make an accurate and informed judgement at all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Come on....the dude says Orochimaru will counter Itachi's Tsukuyomi with Oral rebirth and talks about how Orochimaru will attack Itachi from underground when we already know for a fact that Susano covers the bottom also. Additionally we've already seen Itachi dodge attacks from underground.
> 
> Izaya doesn't know what he's talking about and he knows absolutely nothing about Itachi to make an accurate and informed judgement at all.



Pretty much this 
Can't believe this debate is still going on 

It's cute when people contradict direct datsbook non hyperbole statements

If kishi says Yamata is oro best jutsu it is 

That's very different from calling a jutsu invincible 

That DB statement is no diffident from gai saying hirudora is his fastest punch in 7G

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

On a side note
When Kabuto was in izanami he did try use oral rebirth to get out of it 

Don't know if that matters . But could be some implication there

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> On a side note
> When Kabuto was in izanami he did try use oral rebirth to get out of it
> 
> Don't know if that matters . But could be some implication there




His original idea was that after Orochimaru eats a Tsukuyomi and took the full blunt of its mental attack, Orochimaru will use Oral Rebirth and negate all of the damage. That was his answer to Tsukuyomi....apart from keeping a distance by standing on top of Manda


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> His original idea was that after Orochimaru eats a Tsukuyomi and took the full blunt of its mental attack, Orochimaru will use Oral Rebirth and negate all of the damage. That was his answer to Tsukuyomi....apart from keeping a distance by standing on top of Manda





That doesn't stop the fact that while in genjutsu Kabuto thought that might work

Granted it can't work since tskuyomi effects will take effect long before oral rebirth can be used

Though on that poster with the dupe best to ignore both accounts

When manda is somehow the answer to everything u know there is a mental issue attached to the posts


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## Mithos (Jun 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> And how would that at all imply that Manda can counter Sasuke's Genjutsu?



Counter it indefinitely? No, probably not. But acting as if Manda is essentially a non-factor because of the Sasuke example is disingenuous. 

Manda is large enough to not have to make eye contact to fight, and he's not alone. He has Orochimaru there who will also be attacking Itachi, dividing his attention. And if Manda is caught, it's not necessarily the end: Orochimaru could break him out with the partner method. 

Itachi cannot just "Genjutsu, GG" Manda whenever he feels like it. Though he'll likely dispose of Manda in the end.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2016)

When did Kabuto use Oral rebirth to counter Izanami ?




Mithos said:


> Counter it indefinitely? No, probably not. But acting as if Manda is essentially a non-factor because of the Sasuke example is disingenuous.
> 
> Manda is large enough to not have to make eye contact to fight, and he's not alone. He has Orochimaru there who will also be attacking Itachi, dividing his attention. And if Manda is caught, it's not necessarily the end: Orochimaru could break him out with the partner method.
> 
> Itachi cannot just "Genjutsu, GG" Manda whenever he feels like it. Though he'll likely dispose of Manda in the end.



Orochimaru and Manda aren't mentally linked. Orochimaru will have no idea that Manda is caught in genjutsu until manda tries to eat him. Good luck breaking genjutsu on a rampaging giant animal.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did Kabuto use Oral rebirth to counter Izanami ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't say he did Counter it 

I am saying he thought it a viable solution and tried it 

Wanna read the manga and my post maybe 

Before commenting 

Manda gets trolled by genjutsu anyone arguing otherwise really should remember 

Manda can't break himself out 

His eyes are so big it's hard not to make eye contact with them 

Itachi crows can cAst genjutsu 

Manda is slow enough to be outpaced by tsunade 

Lol can't believe this thread though


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I didn't say he did Counter it
> 
> I am saying he thought it a viable solution and tried it
> 
> Wanna read the manga and my post maybe



Can you show me the scans I really don't recall anything about this.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Can you show me the scans I really don't recall anything about this.



Here you go 
Tbh I didn't remember either 
It's pretty random and unimportant 

As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi


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## Blu-ray (Jun 15, 2016)

Why must every argument for Oro be a fucking college thesis?

Anyway since this is War Arc Oro and I don't see ET being restricted in the OP, Itachi is going to get the gang bang of the ages by Minato, Tobirama and Hiruzen. Oro has full intel too so there goes any chance of him going full retard and not using ET right off the bat. A low diff win for Oro.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Here you go
> Tbh I didn't remember either
> It's pretty random and unimportant
> 
> As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi



Interesting, I actually never paid any attention to this before. I always thought he was just frustrated and was rejecting his losing self and that image of rejection materialized with oral rebrith. 

Eitherway oral rebrith is not a viable solution to genjutsu because anything you do within the genjutsu will not effect the real world.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 15, 2016)

Kai said:


> It would only make no sense if A) Orochimaru and Minato were ever in competition for the Hokage seat, which is something you can't prove. I don't find it likely, given Jiraiya was Minato's sensei so there is a discernible generational gap to consider. Naruto and Kakashi are prime examples of this. B) Being stronger doesn't make one more qualified to be the Hokage, especially if one is very young. Naruto and Kakashi are also prime examples of this. Of course, you can bring up Hiruzen at 15 but that doesn't apply as strongly to this case as he wasn't comparable to others (mentors, friends) that we know of in his era for Sandaime.


 My main point was, the fact that Orochimaru was believed to be more suitable for the role of Hokage rather than Minato, would indicate that Orochimaru's prowess was comparable to Minato's own. As a Hokage isn't just chosen for maturity, age, and experience, but for their ability too. If there was a large gap in their abilities, then Orochimaru would've never been chosen over him. As consistently, one of the strongest (if not the strongest) is always chosen as Hokage over other factors.


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## Icegaze (Jun 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> My main point was, the fact that Orochimaru was believed to be more suitable for the role of Hokage rather than Minato, would indicate that Orochimaru's prowess was comparable to Minato's own. As a Hokage isn't just chosen for maturity, age, and experience, but for their ability too. If there was a large gap in their abilities, then Orochimaru would've never been chosen over him. As consistently, one of the strongest (if not the strongest) is always chosen as Hokage over other factors.



And when was there an implied gap between itachi and minato if I may ask 

One was established between itachi and orochimaru though 

As was one between Jiriaya and itachi 

Being denied the hokage position in favour of minato certainly implies minato > orochimaru as well


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## Sapherosth (Jun 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And when was there an implied gap between itachi and minato if I may ask
> 
> One was established between itachi and orochimaru though
> 
> ...





To be fair, Orochimaru wasn't denied because of his strength.... he was denied because of his bad intentions.


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## Icegaze (Jun 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> To be fair, Orochimaru wasn't denied because of his strength.... he was denied because of his bad intentions.



True 
However not sure why that's even a discussion nothing in the manga implies he is at itachi or minato level 

At least both minato and itachi have been hyped for being impossible to beat 

Itachi by zetsu 

Minato by A 

Orochimaru has received no such praise 

Feat wise every fight he has been in would have been handled with a lot and I mean a lot more ease by minato or itachi

Oro is well below them the manga shows this 

Jiriaya loosing to oro decades ago doesn't change that fact


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## Trojan (Jun 16, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Why must every argument for Oro be a fucking college thesis?
> 
> Anyway since this is War Arc Oro and I don't see ET being restricted in the OP, Itachi is going to get the gang bang of the ages by Minato, Tobirama and Hiruzen. Oro has full intel too so there goes any chance of him going full retard and not using ET right off the bat. A low diff win for Oro.



I don't think  you know Kishi well.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't think that you know Kishi well.


Luckily there's no PIS in the battledome.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jun 17, 2016)

Itachi wrecks Orochimaru with Tsukuyomi or Susanoo.


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## Parallaxis (Jun 17, 2016)

Matty said:


> Area: Kn4 vs Orochimaru
> Knowledge: Full for Oro, None for Itachi
> Mindset: IC
> Restrictions: Izanami
> ...


Healthy Itachi is basically a weapon of mass destruction.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And when was there an implied gap between itachi and minato if I may ask


 We did not read the same Manga if it isn't blatantly obvious that Minato was portrayed as being much stronger than Itachi since Chapter 1. 



> One was established between itachi and orochimaru though


 Which we've already argued.



> As was one between Jiriaya and itachi


 Who Itachi is inferior to, who believed that Minato was unsurpassed and always placed above himself. 



> Being denied the hokage position in favour of minato certainly implies minato > orochimaru as well


 He was denied because of his negative intentions, not because of his strength.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> We did not read the same Manga if it isn't blatantly obvious that Minato was
> portrayed as being much stronger than Itachi since Chapter 1.



Minato wasn't unquestionably superior until the war arc with Bijuu Mode. They were both hyped to high heaven and no piece of hype Minato had outstripped Itachi's or vice verca.



> *Who Itachi is inferior to*, who believed that Minato was unsurpassed and always placed above himself


.
How people actually believe this is beyond me. Even if you completely disregard him being superior to Jiraiya's own equal if not better by a massive margin, Itachi's own statement only puts him as Jiraiya's peer with the whole killing each other/harming each other badly thing. Nowhere is portrayed as inferior.


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## Trojan (Jun 17, 2016)

> [="VolatileSoul, post: 55734904, member: 228386"]Minato wasn't unquestionably superior until the war arc with Bijuu Mode. They were both hyped to high heaven and no piece of hype Minato had outstripped Itachi's or vice verca.


He has always been stronger than itachi since chapter one. 
Tho the entire "rivalry" between them is pretty much fan-made anyway.
.


> How people actually believe this is beyond me. Even if you completely disregard him being superior to Jiraiya's own equal if not better by a massive margin, Itachi's own statement only puts him as Jiraiya's peer with the whole killing each other/harming each other badly thing. Nowhere is portrayed as inferior.


Beside itachi's fans, there is absolutely no reason to disregard that statement. Some people are trying to put pitiful excuses as
"he does not want to harm Konoha blah blah blah"

but we know that's rubbish.
Itachi was willing to chop Kurnai's head without a second thought
Link removed

When Kakashi spoke of the Akatsuki he ordered Kisame to get him and make the other 2 disappear.


He was the one who told Sasuke to kill Naruto
He did not move a finger when Kisame was trying to chop Naruto's legs off.

And so on, we did not get anything throughout the entire manga where it was shown/stated that itachi was lolworried about Jiraiya's safty.

Also, their entire basis for this argument is rather illogical and makes no sense. Their argument is based on fooling Kisame. However, Kisame DOES know itachi's power, he knows about the MS and at least 2 of his strongest jutsu, and he was with him for at least 7 years, and know his power, so how can he fool him in this regard?

And it's not like Kisame does not know about Jiraiya's power or what happened between itachi & Oro. However, even with him knowing all those facts he still did not make such a ridiculous conclusion and linked what happened to Oro with what will happen to Jiraiya.

And even if we were to go with itachi's fans excuses that he wanted to protect konoha all along and whatnot, it's really nothing to lie about.

Gai also protects Konoha, so should we assume that he was lying to T7 when he said he is stronger than Kakashi? 
Or Kakashi was lying when he said Naruto is stronger than him because they are on the same team and whatnot? 


And finally, if Oro being weaker than Itachi at that points means Jiraiya is also weaker than itachi.

Now Oro is far stronger than itachi by several tiers with his ET, so does that make Jiraiya automatically stronger than itachi by the same amount of different between Oro and itachi?


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## Blu-ray (Jun 17, 2016)

Hussain said:


> He has always been stronger than itachi since chapter one.
> Tho the entire "rivalry" between them is pretty much fan-made anyway.
> .



Itachi didn't even exist in chapter one. We knew fuck all about their power in relation to each other because nothing definitive was stated either way and both have egregious amounts of hype.



> Beside itachi's fans, there is absolutely no reason to disregard that statement. Some people are trying to put pitiful excuses as
> "he does not want to harm Konoha blah blah blah"



You mean aside from the whole "he was a good guy all along"  and "he never told a single truth" reveals? Cause that seems more than enough reason to question that.



> but we know that's rubbish.
> Itachi was willing to chop Kurnai's head without a second thought
> Link removed
> 
> ...



You can add trying to incinerate Sasuke with Amaterasu and ripping his eyes out to that list too, since that was just as convincing. Kishi's plot twist execution was indeed retarded as fuck, but even then there was questionable stuff in hindsight, like Kakashi wondering why Itachi didn't didn't simply kill him.

Besides, I don't recall saying he ran for Jiraiya's safety. He clearly achieved his goal or warning Danzo while having the perfect excuse for not capturing the Kyuubi's Jinchuriki, and noped the fuck out.

Besides, he slaughtered his own family and did fuck all while Kisame butchered Roshi. So based on that I don't doubt he would off Kurenei or Asuma. All for the glory of Konoha.



> Also, their entire basis for this argument is rather illogical and makes no sense. Their argument is based on fooling Kisame. However, Kisame DOES know itachi's power, he knows about the MS and at least 2 of his strongest jutsu, and he was with him for at least 7 years, and know his power, so how can he fool him in this regard?
> 
> And it's not like Kisame does not know about Jiraiya's power or what happened between itachi & Oro. However, even with him knowing all those facts he still did not make such a ridiculous conclusion and linked what happened to Oro with what will happen to Jiraiya.



Kisame outright asked Itachi why it was necessary for him of all people to flee. Did you not remember that? He does have the general idea of their strength as you say, so that that statement alone means he at the very least believed Itachi was his match, if not more.



> And even if we were to go with itachi's fans excuses that he wanted to protect konoha all along and whatnot, it's really nothing to lie about.
> 
> Gai also protects Konoha, so should we assume that he was lying to T7 when he said he is stronger than Kakashi?
> Or Kakashi was lying when he said Naruto is stronger than him because they are on the same team and whatnot?


How are those comparable examples? Itachi was masquerading as Konoha's enemy, those two were not. It's the same shit as Kabuto making himself look like a run of the mill fodder in the Chunin exams despite being a match for the likes of Kakashi.




> Now Oro is far stronger than itachi by several tiers with his ET, so does that make Jiraiya automatically stronger than itachi by the same amount of different between Oro and itachi?



No, for the obvious reason that ET put Orochimaru beyond Jiraiya by the same margin as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Platypus (Jun 17, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Itachi's own statement only puts him as Jiraiya's peer with the whole killing each other/harming each other badly thing


Eh, depends on the translation:



			
				ShounenSuki said:
			
		

> *Kisame:*
> *「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」*
> *「次元が違う」*
> *"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."*
> ...



I do feel like the VIZ translation makes more sense though. 

ShounenSuki:
- You might be able to beat him, Itachi. (But he's way above me.)
- Yeah, he might kill us both.
…​

- You might be able to take him on, Itachi. (But he's way above me.)
- Yeah, but we might end up killing each other, at the very least hurt each other pretty badly.
​I dunno. Who cares.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 17, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Minato wasn't unquestionably superior until the war arc with Bijuu Mode. They were both hyped to high heaven and no piece of hype Minato had outstripped Itachi's or vice verca.


 Doesn't change the fact that Minato's was far superior. Minato was introduced into the series as being the legendary hero who saved Konoha from the Kyuubi's rampage. He was once believed to be a Child of Prophecy and destined Savior of the World, flee-on-sight orders were given by his mere appearance on the battlefield, his name struck so much fear into people and he had so much enemies that Naruto couldn't even have his father's name because they might kill him out of revenge. He was believed to be unsurpassed by Jiraiya, and one of the most powerful shinobi in history. Even A believed he was unsurpassed, as even he and B together were never able to best him in combat. Even after his death, people had wished that he was around to take care of certain situations. Hell, in Itachi's own novel that hyped him up even further. Went as far to state that Itachi had the highest test scores in the history of academy, except for Minato's being greater than his own. It's pretty obvious who was stronger.
.


> How people actually believe this is beyond me. Even if you completely disregard him being superior to Jiraiya's own equal if not better by a massive margin, Itachi's own statement only puts him as Jiraiya's peer with the whole killing each other/harming each other badly thing. Nowhere is portrayed as inferior.


 The fact that Itachi was doubtful whether or not he could kill Jiraiya, saying that "at best" he could maybe force a tie would indicate that he viewed himself as lesser than Jiraiya. Kisame even said that the titles of the Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist paled in comparison to being one of the Sannin, and Itachi did not object. He was very clearly portrayed as inferior, and no hype he received later outclasses that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> We did not read the same Manga if it isn't blatantly obvious that Minato was portrayed as being much stronger than Itachi since Chapter 1.



 You know that's not true. Minato and Itachi were the only ones portrayed as being decisively above Orochimaru at the time.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blu-ray (Jun 18, 2016)

Platypus said:


> Eh, depends on the translation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Viz is official, though it's not like they're infallible and ShounenSuki is pretty credible as far as I know. Eh, who cares indeed.




Isaiah13000 said:


> Doesn't change the fact that Minato's was far superior. Minato was introduced into the series as being the legendary hero who saved Konoha from the Kyuubi's rampage. He was once believed to be a Child of Prophecy and destined Savior of the World, flee-on-sight orders were given by his mere appearance on the battlefield, his name struck so much fear into people and he had so much enemies that Naruto couldn't even have his father's name because they might kill him out of revenge. He was believed to be unsurpassed by Jiraiya, and one of the most powerful shinobi in history. Even A believed he was unsurpassed, as even he and B together were never able to best him in combat. Even after his death, people had wished that he was around to take care of certain situations.



How? Because his teacher and rival wanked him to high heaven? There's no end to the amount of powerful Shinobi themselves praising Itachi's prowess, and among them was the black goop retconned into being the molder of history and will of strongest entity to ever exist. It's not like Minato was the only one getting terms like unsurpassed thrown around either, since Itachi was flat out called invincible and perfect.



> Hell, in Itachi's own novel that hyped him up even further. Went as far to state that Itachi had the highest test scores in the history of academy, except for Minato's being greater than his own. It's pretty obvious who was stronger.



He then proceeded to break the record of the forrest of death. A tad more impressive than scoring higher on a test in which the grades don't even matter. That, and he took the exam at the same age Minato graduated from the academy.



> The fact that Itachi was doubtful whether or not he could kill Jiraiya, saying that "at best" he could maybe force a tie would indicate that he viewed himself as lesser than Jiraiya. Kisame even said that the titles of the Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist paled in comparison to being one of the Sannin, and Itachi did not object. He was very clearly portrayed as inferior, and no hype he received later outclasses that.



That he doubts his chances and believes he'd at best draw is exactly where the implication of equality comes from. Anything else would either be expressing confidence in a sure victory which would imply superiority, or saying he'd lose which would imply clear inferiority.

Itachi flat out told a Sannin that all his techniques were useless before his eyes, so clearly he doesn't agree with Kisame's sentiment, and that same Sannin stating Itachi was stronger than him by no small margin while believing himself Jiraiya's better, goes a bit beyond hype. It flat out portrays him as better since they're all considered equals.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 18, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> This is not what I'm saying. It's not as simple as casting a Genjutsu and sending the user far away, it's being able to maintain that connection as well. If he can maintain that connection when his opponent is far away, there's no reason why he can't establish a connection when his opponent's farther away.


That is like saying the pain from a gunshot wound lasts 100 meters away from the spot you were initially shot, so why can't the gunman shoot you from 100 meters. 





> The only reason why it's more effective at close-range is because it's easier to establish eye-contact at a closer-range, but that doesn't mean that has to be the case. Sharingan Genjutsu has been used from far distances such as what Sasuke did against Deidara or what he did against C and even, what Madara did against Kurama. There's absolutely no reason why Itachi can't use Genjutsu from long distances.


 Aside from the fact those are Sasuke & Madara feats.. Deidara was flying towards Sasuke, getting closer to him every second,  the distance was not really that far, especially if we're comparing it to Mandas height lol. As for C, again that distance can't be compared to Mandas height. 

As for Madara.. we shouldn't be comparing his feats to Itachi.



> Aoda being larger than Hydra is entirely baseless and quite frankly, you have nothing that even suggests that Summons in the War Arc were somehow drawn out to be the size that they were in Part 2. We see strange Size Scaling even in the War Arc, so they certainly weren't properly sized and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.



[insert scan] Look at Hydras size & length. Keep in mind each head is the same size as Orochimarus body. His legs weren't even shown, so really just his torso.

I have nothing that suggests they were properly sized in the war arc?  Now look at Aoda, Gamakichi & Katsuyu. They are all properly sized and it even stays consistent. Let's also keep in mind, Aoda & Gamakichi are smaller than
Manda & Gammabunta..

Now compare Hydra to Aoda. Then Aoda to Manda. Or Manda to Hydra. The size difference is painfully obvious.



> Because Hydra is a superior version of Manda essentially.


 That's Databook nonsense that can be proven wrong with the manga.



> And yes, Hydra is Orochimaru's Strongest Technique unless you want to go against Kishimoto's words.


 Not the strongest when facing Itachi obviously.



> No we haven't. That's you being intellectually dishonest and quite frankly, that doesn't prove that this is an established fact, so I'll just take this as a concession now and move on.



Sorry let me correct myself. We've only seen Itachi use Sharingan Genjustu at short range. Even at the furthest range we've seen Sharingan Genjutsu work, it's not the same as the distance that will be put between Manda and Orochimaru. 
-Databook: Short-Range. 
-Manga: We have only seen it at a short range. Even at the furthest range, it was still pretty short when considering the distance we're dealing with.



> Manda being done in by Genjutsu is exactly what happened in the manga.


 I should stop you here. Sasuke summoned Manda. He was in immediate Genjutsu range so I don't know how you came to that conclusion. 





> Your fanfiction is just that, fanfiction. It's not guaranteed that what you're suggesting is depicted as a counter to Itachi's techniques in kishimotos eyes yet


No shit. I never said it was a guarantee. What I'm saying is that logically, Orochimarus techniques can counter Itachis. Itachi has not shown the ability to handle such opponents. It's not a guarantee, I just see no reason to believe that Itachi > Prime Orochimaru.



> Sharingan Genjutsu is because Manda and Orochimaru himself were done in by Genjutsu.


 ... Woah What? They were.. What!? Give me a scan. My whole world perspective is just shattering.. unraveling at the seems.. my rose tinted glasses have been removed..  lol


> So you're sticking with your narrow-minded attitude? All right, no point in debating then.



Not narrow minded, I just don't see how this is going to happen. Itachi getting into Genjutsu range. Then that, somehow being the downfall of Orochimaru lol?



> I addressed your entire argument. You have nothing to stand on.


 No you didn't. You just hopped on the "Genjutsu Manda" argument. 



> All you do is make up counters that Orochimaru has against Itachi when this isn't proven or depicted by the manga at all. Everything I have and everyone else has been providing comes straight from the manga, so there really is no point in addressing your fanfiction when manga has clearly shown otherwise.


 ... really?  
That's you not being able to substantiate your arguments. My only questionable area is Tsukyomi & Oral Rebirth. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Only if you think KCM Naruto and B's speeds and CQC prowess aren't impressive, which we know is incorrect. And Itachi didn't even use a Kunai or a shuriken which he excels at. Do you have any evidence regaring Samehada's slow speed ?Kirabi actually tried to attack with tentacles later on but he got Genjutsu'd.
> No one was holding back in that encounter. They were just all feeling each other out like most fights start in this manga. But if you have evidence suggesting that they were deliberately holding back, acting slower than usual etc, be my guest and post the scans.


*Itachi Taijutsu Speed Feats are not that impressive.*
Since people will probably use the "he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke" excuse I'll consider Edo Feats as well. Also not to mention of few of his Taijutsu feats against Sasuke are done inside a Genjutsu so eh.
His ET Taijutsu feats are not that impressive anyway:
*Spoiler*: __ 







Naruto hardly attacked, he just stayed on the defensive and *dodged/blocked all of Itachis attacks.* They both could have used chakra limbs / Tentacles to attack. Why Bee uses Samehada and Naruto defends.. I have no idea. As you can see below, in mid-air Naruto uses a chakra limb, that could have easily been applied during his CQC with Itachi.The reason they didn't kill Itachi right there is conversation and clumsiness.. and the fact he can't die as an ET that Kishi planned to free. KB was also reacting fine to Itachi. Even after being caught in a Genjutsu he was still able to counter.
*Spoiler*: __ 






 KB initially used Samehada to attack. He attacked while Itachi was duking it out with KCM Naruto yet Itachi was able to dodge it. Then one on one without Narutos help he was able to dodge Samehada again. KB then caught Itachi with his tentacles. Tentacles quicker than KB welding Samehada that's my logic.
*Itachis CQC skills are not bad. His Sharingan precognition is top-notch (as an ET anyway). Itachis CQC skills and foot speed has been pit against humans only. So to say that Itachi can dodge Orochimaru & Manda because of his performance with KCM Naruto & KB is just false. *



> This is an incorrect assumption :
> http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12
> http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12
> Summons may have tremendous size advantage, but they also have a tremendous speed disadvantage.
> Manda will get casually danced around and trolled.


 You literally cherrypicked the most random, irrelevant examples of a summon being slow. Not all summons are slow, whatever though. Despite his size, Manda still has considerable speed and good reflexes:  Even with a speed advantage, what is Itachi going to do exactly?



> Even genin Naruto can almost dodge a dead angle attack coming from a giant snake.
> http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12
> http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12


 honestly i don't even know how to respond to this. I just.. don't know where to start. Uhm.

I don't see how this applies, or rather I don't exactly know how to address it. The characters involved are to unrelated to our battle scenario in the sense that 
Itachi > Naruto foot speed while Manda > Twin snakes in power and speed. Also Naruto couldn't dodge anyway. So.. I honestly don't know where to go with this lol.



> Which accomplishes nothing for him, so why would he do that ? He needs to be close to Itachi to be able to hurt him.


 He can: or 
*Spoiler*: __ 






 or summon Edo Tensei.




> Even B got saved by the skin of his teeth and he pretty much has instantaneous defense thanks to his bijuu.
> http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12


 That doesn't really apply to this fight. 



> Orochimaru can't instantly sense that Manda is controlled by genjutsu up until Manda actually turns on him which will be too late do anything to save him.


 All he has to do is constantly emit chakra. This prevents Manda from getting caught. Not to mention all Orochimaru has to do, is warn Manda not to make eye contact with Itachi. It isn't that difficult.

Boss summon sizes keep getting retconned all the time.
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12[/quote] Where was Mandas sized "retconned". Did you accidentally post the wrong scan?



> Earlier in the manga they were drawn alot bigger. So Manda should be the same size as Aoda and is stated to be smaller than Yamata, which he should be when you account in Yamata's body as a whole instead of looking at its individual heads.


 DB says Manda is largest snake in the Narutoverse. In the manga he is never once shown being smaller than Aoda. I have no idea where you are getting any of this. I've already addressed the whole Yamata and Manda situation. Look at their length, Manda wrapped around Katsuyu with extra length to go around. 



> Manda's mouth doesn't matter here. What matters is the radious of his neck. It is much much smaller compared to its open mouth as we all know pythons can swallow prey 8 times their size due to their jaw anathomy. And look at the size of Sasuke's arrow in that scan you posted. That should be comparable to the length of the extended Totsuka : http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/544/12
> Which is long enough to decapitate 2 Aoda sized snakes with a clean swipe to the neck.


 The length of one of Sasukes arrows is about the measure of the diameter of a single Aoda. Manda is likely the thickness of two+ Aoda. 



> Manda gets fucked. *Not that Itachi needs Susano'O to battle it, but if it came down to it, it wouldn't last more than 1 panel.*


 That's good to know, tell me two things.

How does Itachi deal with Manda & Orichimaru without Susanoo? Genjustu lol? 

We're counting on Manda getting taken out, he's the perfect diversion. While Itachi is stuck sealing Manda (which would be quite the feat) Orochimaru uses Edo Tensei to attack the weak points of Susanoo (under&behind).


Orochimaru wins with Manda restricted. Just saying. (Sorry if my response was a little unorganized, I didn't really do too many edits.)


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 18, 2016)

Again, I might not be on in the next few days so sorry if my responses are late.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 18, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Doesn't change the fact that Minato's was far superior. Minato was introduced into the series as being the legendary hero who saved Konoha from the Kyuubi's rampage. He was once believed to be a Child of Prophecy and destined Savior of the World, flee-on-sight orders were given by his mere appearance on the battlefield, his name struck so much fear into people and he had so much enemies that Naruto couldn't even have his father's name because they might kill him out of revenge. He was believed to be unsurpassed by Jiraiya, and one of the most powerful shinobi in history. Even A believed he was unsurpassed, as even he and B together were never able to best him in combat. Even after his death, people had wished that he was around to take care of certain situations. Hell, in Itachi's own novel that hyped him up even further. Went as far to state that Itachi had the highest test scores in the history of academy, except for Minato's being greater than his own. It's pretty obvious who was stronger.
> .
> The fact that Itachi was doubtful whether or not he could kill Jiraiya, saying that "at best" he could maybe force a tie would indicate that he viewed himself as lesser than Jiraiya. *Kisame even said that the titles of the Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist paled in comparison to being one of the Sannin, and Itachi did not object. He was very clearly portrayed as inferior, and no hype he received later outclasses that*.




You've got to be kidding me. You are right that Minato had a higher score than Itachi in the Chunin test exam in the Novel, however, you must also take into consideration that Itachi was several years YOUNGER than Minato when he took the test. If Itachi was the same age as Minato when he took the test, I don't doubt he could've done much better.

I can also say that Sasuke believed that Itachi was the perfect Shinobi even after obtaining EMS, and the first Hokage said he was a better shinobi than himself as well, and Zetsu as well. Come on....God Of Shinobi and Son of Kaguya's words > Jiraiya+A any day of the week.

Itachi never said "at best he could force a tie"... You're obviously reading the wrong translation.

In the VIZ he said -

"Yeah...If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least we'd hurt each other badly..."

By we'd hurt each other badly would probably be the side effects of MS on Itachi, plus the facts that he has to preserve his eye as long as possible for his battle against Sasuke. We already saw how much Itachi's eyes was blurred during their battle. So it's obvious that he wouldn't want to use it needlessly.


After their brief skirmish - VIZ TRANSLATION

Kisame said " Why did we have to retreat.....?  *With your power.*...."   (This suggested that Kisame was overestimating Jiraiya and is now confident that Itachi could have taken him on, so he was questioning their retreat.

Itachi - "There's no need to be impatient....None. Besides which I must also rest my body in one place for the foreseeable future."
This suggests that Itachi was trying to preserve his eye sight as much as possible for his battle with Sasuke. We already saw how fast MS goes blind when it's overused by Sasuke in a few months. Imagine having MS for nearly a decade!


If you don't believe me you're welcome to go check on the "VIZ Clear up thread" in the Naruto Library, chapter 148.



Just accept the facts presented to you. There's no need to deny it any further.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> That is like saying the pain from a gunshot wound lasts 100 meters away from the spot you were initially shot, so why can't the gunman shoot you from 100 meters.  Aside from the fact those are Sasuke & Madara feats.. Deidara was flying towards Sasuke, getting closer to him every second,  the distance was not really that far, especially if we're comparing it to Mandas height lol. As for C, again that distance can't be compared to Mandas height.
> 
> As for Madara.. we shouldn't be comparing his feats to Itachi.



 No it's not at all. 

 Think of it like this. Gaara uses his sand to grind up minerals within the ground and reinforce them with chakra and thus, can manipulate sand from very large distances. If he's capable of manipulating sand from a very far distance, then obviously he can reinforce sand with his chakra from a significantly large distance. Same thing applies here. If he can maintain a connection between his opponent through genjutsu from a significantly large distance, then logically, he can establish Sharingan-genjutsu from a very large distance as well since both are being manipulated by chakra. Only thing that restricts him from doing so is because eye-contact is much easier to accomplish at shorter range, but that doesn't mean it can't be accomplished at farther range.

 I fail to see how your example is applicable here. Seems irrelevant to be honest because while I understand your point, it's really incomparable here because the pain from a gunshot wound obviously isn't affected by the gunman by any means after the bullet is lodged in the person's body. Gaara's Sand and Itachi's Genjutsu is and has to be maintained through chakra. If anything, Itachi having to maintain his Genjutsu from a larger distance requires significantly more work based on what Ao implied which is a feat Shisui cannot do. It's safe to say that because of this, he can establish Sharingan Genjutsu from larger ranges.

 And no, the distance between Deidara and Sasuke still wasn't close-range. If you want another example, how about Sasuke's Genjutsu used on C or his Genjutsu used on Danzo? Both were easily above close-range, easily.

 Madara, while he is superior to Itachi, Itachi has superior Genjutsu from portrayal and feats by far. He was trained by Shisui and attained greater usage of Genjutsu than Madara ever has as a result. Having superior Dojutsu only means the potency of his Genjutsu would be superior, not that his skill using it would be superior. Refer to Hebi Sasuke's fight against Itachi where a tool is only as powerful as someone that uses it:

considerable strength

 I hope I don't have to explain the rest to you here.



> [insert scan] Look at Hydras size & length. *Keep in mind each head is the same size as Orochimarus body*. His legs weren't even shown, so really just his torso.



 Right. That's like saying RSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar is smaller than Full Kurama because Naruto's body is smaller in comparison to his RSM Avatar's head than Madara is compared to Full Kurama. It's clear Kishimoto never gave a shit about scaling to be honest, so doing a comparison between a Summon's head and its user is ridiculous logic honestly. 



> I have nothing that suggests they were properly sized in the war arc?  Now look at Aoda, Gamakichi & Katsuyu. They are all properly sized and it even stays consistent. Let's also keep in mind, Aoda & Gamakichi are smaller than
> Manda & Gammabunta..
> 
> Now compare Hydra to Aoda. Then Aoda to Manda. Or Manda to Hydra. The size difference is painfully obvious.



 And Manda is around as large as Gamabunta is and Kishimoto's perception of Boss Summons have changed since Part 1. There's no evidence that Manda suddenly remained as large as he did in Part 1 (which makes him significantly larger than Gamabunta) when even Katsuyu suffers from P2 Scaling as well. If Aoda and Gamakichi are the same size as Katsuyu, then Gamabunta and Manda would logically be the size as Aoda and Gamakichi unless Manda is suddenly much much larger than Gamabunta which contradicts the whole, "Three-Way-Deadlock".

That's Databook nonsense that can be proven wrong with the manga.



> Not the strongest when facing Itachi obviously.



 Baseless assumption. I guess Sage Mode suddenly isn't Jiraiya's best technique depending on who he's facing. 



> Sorry let me correct myself. We've only seen Itachi use Sharingan Genjustu at short range. Even at the furthest range we've seen Sharingan Genjutsu work, it's not the same as the distance that will be put between Manda and Orochimaru.
> -Databook: Short-Range.
> -Manga: We have only seen it at a short range. Even at the furthest range, it was still pretty short when considering the distance we're dealing with.



 Actually no we haven't and I've already established why Itachi can use Genjutsu from a far distance.

 Essentially, what you're using is Argumentum ad Ignorantum where you're using a fallacy where something is false based on the fact that it hasn't been proven true. Just because it's only been used at close range (which is absolutely false) doesn't imply that he can't do so at a farther range. I've already addressed why Sharingan Genjutsu is more effective at close-range, but that doesn't mean it can't be used at a farther range.



> I should stop you here. Sasuke summoned Manda. *He was in immediate Genjutsu range so I don't know how you came to that conclusion. *
> No shit. I never said it was a guarantee. What I'm saying is that logically, Orochimarus techniques can counter Itachis. Itachi has not shown the ability to handle such opponents. It's not a guarantee, I just see no reason to believe that Itachi > Prime Orochimaru.



 No he wasn't. That's something you're assuming here.

 No, logically Orochimaru's techniques cannot counter Itachi's when manga suggests otherwise. Even the newly developed techniques Orochimaru had wouldn't help at all which is why Orochimaru admitted that capturing Itachi was only a dream. The only moment Orochimaru thought he could fight Itachi was when he was Sick, Blind, and on his Deathbed. I really see no reason to believe that Itachi isn't above Prime Orochimaru at all and you haven't proven to me how Orochimaru's techniques are a counter against Itachi's. Manga shows that Itachi's techniques counter Orochimaru's, hence why he was even spanked by his weaker, younger brother, but the opposite hasn't been shown at all.




> ... Woah What? They were.. What!? Give me a scan. My whole world perspective is just shattering.. unraveling at the seems.. my rose tinted glasses have been removed..  lol



 So basically an attempt to make a fool out of me because you can't support your argument. 

 All right, concession accepted. 




> Not narrow minded, I just don't see how this is going to happen. Itachi getting into Genjutsu range. Then that, somehow being the downfall of Orochimaru lol?



 Yet all the times that Orochimaru has fought an Uchiha, he fought them whilst getting into "Genjutsu-range". Right, you keep sticking with this argument when manga suggests otherwise.



> No you didn't. You just hopped on the "Genjutsu Manda" argument.



 No I didn't.



> ... really?
> That's you not being able to substantiate your arguments. My only questionable area is Tsukyomi & Oral Rebirth.



 Really? 

 Tells me that manga hasn't shown us that Itachi can use Genjutsu from farther range (which is bs), therefore he can't, yet tells me that Orochimaru has counters against Itachi even though that wasn't shown in the manga. Keep telling me I can't substantiate my arguments when your logic is just contradictory and fallacious.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 20, 2016)

I'll have a response prepared by tomorrow. @UchihaX28

I'll give you a sneak peak of what I'll be discussing though.

- I'm not saying Itachi isn't capable of long range Genjutsu even though he's never personally used it at a long range and the databook also classified it as a short-range Genjutsu. It's like you said though, it's alot more difficult because eye contact is required. At long distances eye contact is difficult to make.

-If that's the reason it's classified as short-range and also the reason we only see it used at short range, it doesn't change my argument. As for my gunman reference, I was saying it's harder to shoot someone from far away. Just because you can maintain that connection doesn't necessarily mean you can start the connection from a far distance.

-Your point about Gaara and his sand is valid but it's kind of hard to compare to Sharingan Genjutsu. I don't understand the whole chakra connection part.. I'll explain later.

-Itachis Genjutsu feats are better than Madaras? Madara controlled Kurama with his Genjutsu. That's more than enough for me. Not to mention the ultimate Genjutsu, Infinite Tsukyomi lol.

- No you have not addressed my entire argument. Yes you did hop on the Manda gets Genjutsu'd. We've literally discussed nothing but Manda I swear I feel like restricting him because he's honestly, not even necessary.

-Mandas size has never been inconsistent. He's appeared twice. Both times he was one size. To say he becomes smaller.. I honestly don't understand. As for Aoda & Gamakichi the only reason I had to bring them up was because you thought Gamabuntas one size change, affected every summon. Which made no sense to me.



As for everything else I'll discuss it in my next message. Until then enjoy the sneak peak.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 20, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No it's not at all.
> Think of it like this. Gaara uses his sand to grind up minerals within the ground and reinforce them with chakra and thus, can manipulate sand from very large distances.


 Okay.



> If he's capable of manipulating sand from a very far distance, then obviously he can reinforce sand with his chakra from a significantly large distance.


 I'm going to need you to elaborate. You mean he can start controlling sand from 20 meters away just by using his chakra? Or use _his sand_ to go grind up that sand/dirt and spread his chakra through it.

If you're saying he can just add his chakra to any grain of sand, from any distance I'd need a scan or DB reference supported by the manga that says so. If you're just saying he can use his sand to spread his chakra well..



> Same thing applies here. If he can maintain a connection between his opponent through genjutsu from a significantly large distance, then logically, he can establish Sharingan-genjutsu from a very large distance as well since both are being manipulated by chakra.


 Okay.. so if he can maintain it at long distance he can logically initiate it at long distance. That makes sense.. I have a question though.

Does this mean Naruto could create a shadow clone 80 meters away from him? He normally creates a shadow clone right next to his body. However the shadow clones can travel far distances before Naruto actually loses control. So could Naruto just use the shadow clone jutsu and create a shadow clone 80 meters away?



> Only thing that restricts him from doing so is because eye-contact is much easier to accomplish at shorter range.


 Yea okay.


> but that doesn't mean it can't be accomplished at farther range.


 Okay.



> I fail to see how your example is applicable here. Seems irrelevant to be honest because while I understand your point, it's really incomparable here because the pain from a gunshot wound obviously isn't affected by the gunman by any means after the bullet is lodged in the person's body.


 Sorry I'm not good with examples lol.


> Gaara's Sand and Itachi's Genjutsu is and has to be maintained through chakra. If anything, Itachi having to maintain his Genjutsu from a larger distance requires significantly more work based on what Ao implied which is a feat Shisui cannot do. It's safe to say that because of this, he can establish Sharingan Genjutsu from larger ranges.


 Establishing and Maintaining are two separate things. Can you show me that scan of Ao mentioning Shisui? I've been looking but can't find it.



> And no, the distance between Deidara and Sasuke still wasn't close-range. If you want another example, how about Sasuke's Genjutsu used on C or his Genjutsu used on Danzo? Both were easily above close-range, easily.


 These are all Sasuke Genjutsu. He's inferior to Itachi when it comes to Genjutsu and maybe it's because that range ever consider that lol? Let's stop giving Itachi other people's feats. I haven't been using other people's feats for Orochimaru. I stick to only Orochimaru feats.



> Madara, while he is superior to Itachi, Itachi has superior Genjutsu from portrayal and feats by far.


 Madara controlled Kurama and then put the world into Infinite Tsukyomi.



> He was trained by Shisui and attained greater usage of Genjutsu than Madara ever has as a result. Having superior Dojutsu only means the potency of his Genjutsu would be superior, not that his skill using it would be superior. Refer to Hebi Sasuke's fight against Itachi where a tool is only as powerful as someone that uses it:
> considerable strength
> I hope I don't have to explain the rest to you here.



A tool is only as powerful as someone that uses it. So are you implying that Madara didn't use his Sharingan Genjutsu as skillfully as Itachi? Because we never got to Madara fight and all that or just because Itachis Genjutsu skills are just superior.?



> Right. That's like saying RSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar is smaller than Full Kurama because Naruto's body is smaller in comparison to his RSM Avatar's head than Madara is compared to Full Kurama. It's clear Kishimoto never gave a shit about scaling to be honest, so doing a comparison between a Summon's head and its user is ridiculous logic honestly.


 That's Kurama. Not Manda. Mandas size has never been inconsistent. If you want it to be inconsistent for the first time ever.. fine! Mandas size is now smaller. I'm not sure how much smaller though. So why don't you tell us how small Manda is _now._

Manga is Manga. What's inconsistent is inconsistent. Mandas size was never inconsistent. The only time it was inconsistent was when the DB said Hydra is larger. Manga>DB. If we went by the DB only.. Sharingan Genjutsu Short-Range. Take your pick.



> And Manda is around as large as Gamabunta is and Kishimoto's perception of Boss Summons have changed since Part 1. There's no evidence that Manda suddenly remained as large as he did in Part 1 (which makes him significantly larger than Gamabunta) when even Katsuyu suffers from P2 Scaling as well. If Aoda and Gamakichi are the same size as Katsuyu, then Gamabunta and Manda would logically be the size as Aoda and Gamakichi unless Manda is suddenly much much larger than Gamabunta which contradicts the whole, "Three-Way-Deadlock".


Katsuyus size can be changed since only a percentage of her real body is actually summoned. So Katsuyu can't really be used as an example, which is why I tried to avoid her when presenting my argument. Manda is a lot larger than Gamabunta, have you seen the scan of the three way dead lock?



> Baseless assumption. I guess Sage Mode suddenly isn't Jiraiya's best technique depending on who he's facing.


If his opponent is a walking anti-sagemode. Hydra can be Orochimarus strongest technique but when facing Itachi, Manda is obviously the better choice.



> Actually no we haven't and I've already established why Itachi can use Genjutsu from a far distance.


 We have only seen Itachi use Genjutsu at short range.



> what you're using is Argumentum ad Ignorantum where you're using a fallacy where something is false based on the fact that it hasn't been proven true. Just because it's only been used at close range (which is absolutely false) doesn't imply that he can't do so at a farther range. I've already addressed why Sharingan Genjutsu is more effective at close-range, but that doesn't mean it can't be used at a farther range.


 I'm not saying he used it only at short-range therefore he can only use it at short-range. I'm saying He's only used it at short-range and DB supports this by saying Sharingan Genjutsu is short range. I take that and apply it to our fight to say:
Orochimaru can: Summon Manda to stay out of range.
Use ET for partner method.
Avoid eye contact.

ET can avoid Genjutsu because Orochimaru is able to partner method from any distance.
Manda can avoid Genjutsu: Hundreds of feet in the air.
Closed eyes.
Hundreds of feet below ground.
Partner method.



> No he wasn't. That's something you're assuming here.


 Yes he was. When you summon Manda you appear on his head. That puts you in immediate Genjutsu range. That's obvious. Are you saying he summoned Manda and wasn't in immediate Genjutsu range? But had to get into range while C0 was active? That's something you're assuming here.



> No, logically Orochimaru's techniques cannot counter Itachi's when manga suggests otherwise.


 No it does not.
I've already stated how Orochimaru deals with everything Itachi can dish out. It's all supported by the manga.



> Even the newly developed techniques Orochimaru had wouldn't help at all which is why Orochimaru admitted that capturing Itachi was only a dream. The only moment Orochimaru thought he could fight Itachi was when he was Sick, Blind, and on his Deathbed.


 Ugh. I've addressed this too many times. When it comes to the quotes you either buy it or you don't. It really doesn't change the battle scenario.



> I really see no reason to believe that Itachi isn't above Prime Orochimaru at all and you haven't proven to me how Orochimaru's techniques are a counter against Itachi's. Manga shows that Itachi's techniques counter Orochimaru's, hence why he was even spanked by his weaker, younger brother, but the opposite hasn't been shown at all.


 All I learned was Orochimaru gets ridiculously weak when he needs a body. So weak he loses to the Uchiha orphan rats. Your glass can be half empty or half full my friend.



> So basically an attempt to make a fool out of me because you can't support your argument.


 I'm not trying to making a fool out of you at all. I just want to display my feelings towards your "argument".



> All right, concession accepted.


 Yea okay.



> Yet all the times that Orochimaru has fought an Uchiha, he fought them whilst getting into "Genjutsu-range". Right, you keep sticking with this argument when manga suggests otherwise.


 The closest thing I saw to a fight was Hydra va Susanoo and that was the furthest thing from a fight. Body snatching & murder are two other things if you fail to see that, it's not my problem.



> No I didn't.



Yes, you did. My entire argument doesn't revolve around Manda. Orochimaru wins with Manda restricted.



> Really?
> 
> Tells me that manga has
> n't shown us that Itachi can use Genjutsu from farther range (which is bs), therefore he can't, yet tells me that Orochimaru has counters against Itachi even though that wasn't shown in the manga. Keep telling me I can't substantiate my arguments when your logic is just contradictory and fallacious.


 Show me a scan of ITACHI using Sharingan Genjutsu from a distance that isn't short-range. I'm not saying he's incapable. In this battle scenario he would not be able to apply *even Sasukes* feats.

I'll do this one last time, if you want a nicer version go to pg.3:
Shuriken/Katon: ET, Snake Summons, Rashomon, LAC, Mandara no Jin.
Genjutsu: Manda, ET & Eye Contact, also he could also try to release himself. In a "paralysis genjutsu" he was able to move his arms.
Amaterasu: Oral Rebirth
Tsukyomi: Avoided or Oral Rebirth (read before judging)
Susanoo: ET, Manda, LAC, Rashoman.
CQC: Avoided completely with ET & snake summons.

Only questionable counter I stated was Oral Rebirtb & Tsukyomi, read my earlier posts before judging.

I said you cannot substantiate your arguments because you've talked about nothing but Manda, tried to downplay his consistent size, gave Itachi Sharingan Genjutsu that "wasn't shown in the manga" & did it all with no solid proof.

I'm done arguing Manda with you. If you want, lets restrict him from our argument.

I'm not going to edit this post either so if there are any typos or problems with quoting I apologize .


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## Icegaze (Jun 20, 2016)

Yet to get why manda is immune to finger genjutsu 

Or genjutsu via crow clones even if one is to claim eye contact can't be made between itachi and manda however hilarious that is 

Itachi crows themselves can fly to manda and point blank genjutsu the slow snake 

This thread baffles me


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 20, 2016)

Okay, sorry for the late replies everyone. But first things first, I'd like to ask everyone two questions,


Why is it such a problem for Itachi to lose a battle? Why?
People are saying Manda is slow. Where are people getting this from?
In fact. Like I care, Databook disagrees anyway.


			
				Naruto Wiki: Extracted from Databook 3 said:
			
		

> Manda was very powerful, feared as the "strongest colossal serpent" (最強の蟒蛇,_Saikyō no Uwahebi_) and able to stand his own against  and , having almost killed them both before being disabled. He was extremely fast, as he was quickly able to dodge and disable Katsuyu. It is also obvious that he was well-known, as  was afraid of him just because of his gaze. He was also able to shed his skin in a manner similar to the , which was seen during the battle with Gamabunta and Katsuyu, and to move . His body was sturdy enough to withstand 's , and remain intact, while providing a relatively safe shelter for anyone to hide inside his mouth, although this came at the cost of Manda's life.





			
				HandfullofNaruto said:
			
		

> Mandas size has never been inconsistent. He's appeared twice. Both times he was one size. To say he becomes smaller.. I honestly don't understand. As for Aoda & Gamakichi the only reason I had to bring them up was because you thought Gamabuntas one size change, affected every summon. Which made no sense to me.



This



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lots of words and 0 substance.


Another excuse not to counter my post?
No, I showed you why Itachi cant make eye contact, and you failed to answer, so Manda is not getting put in Genjutsu



> It is a common misconception that sharingan genjutsu only works from point blank range.


Just like it is a common misconception that Orochimaru with no arms = Orochimaru with arms



> Sasuke cast it on Deidara from at least 15-20  meters : considerable strength considerable strength considerable strength


Manda can move, you know that?
And Orochimaru can break him out.



> Neither Orochimaru nor Manda can fight from long range. They have nothing that works from long range. They will have to get close at some point. Or alternatively, Itachi can close the distance before they can do shit :
> Link removed
> Itachi toys with them and proceeds to rape.


Itachi is not raping someone stronger than Jiraiya/Tobirama (both of whom can one shot Itachi - Yomi Numa/Hiraishin), and comparable to Minato/Prime Hiruzen (again, Minato one shots)



> You are so full of shit. Did you know that ?


I am not full of  shit. You are.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Genjutsu can be employed at any stage of the fight because Itachi has the mobility and speed to dance around them, and neither Manda nor Orochimaru can do shit about it.


Tell me how Itachi is dancing around Manda? Using panels please.



> Also you can stop rambling about Manda's size. It is irrelevant. Itachi fought the bigger and stronger snake and won, with literally 0 difficulty : Link removed
> 
> And before you start saying stupid shit like "but muh manda" let me just point you towards the databook description of "Yamata no Orochi"


Manda is stronger than Yamata and bigger than it. End of. Read the manga.

The Databook said it boasts a larger frame. Yes, it is 8 snakes opposed to 1, but still it is much smaller. The DB also said Manda is the largest snake in the world, and you say Yamata is his best technique, but Manda is a summon, not a technique. Susanoo is EMS Madara's greatest technique. Does that mean V2 Susanoo is stronger than 100% Kyuubi, his summon? And later in the manga it was stated ET was the greatest technique in the world, and Manga > Databook.

There is no size inconsistency.
Manda was summoned twice and was the same size each time he was summoned. Manda 2.0 and Aoda were also that same size. Same goes for Katsuyu.

Gamabunta was nerfed in Pain Arc and Gamaken was nerfed in Itachi Pursuit Arc, but later on, in the war arc, Gamahiro (who was also nerfed in Pain Arc) was back to original size, and Gamakichi, who had grown, was that same size, and in Kushina's flashback which occurred after the Pain arc, Bunta was shown as Bijuu size again

So in this fight, Manda is that size. He is bigger than Yamata. And stronger than it. Manga has shown this and Databook never showed otherwise.

Oh and by the way, since you think Yamata is stronger, can Yamata
- dodge and disable Katsuyu in a single panel
- hide underground and sneak attack
- open its jaws wide enough to swallow a bijuu sized toad?
- partially tank Deidara's C0 for the summoner inside him
Because I dont remember Yamata doing anything of these things



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Eitherway oral rebrith is not a viable solution to genjutsu because anything you do within the genjutsu will not effect the real world.



*Spoiler*: _After Tsukuyomi is finished and Orochimaru is kneeling down like Kakashi, that is when he will use Oral Rebirth. If you had any common sense you would know that._ 












*Spoiler*: _And yes things you do in Genjutsu affect the real world (because Genjutsu isnt even real in the first place, it is just an illusion)_ 











Icegaze said:


> That doesn't stop the fact that while in genjutsu Kabuto thought that might work
> 
> Granted it can't work since tskuyomi effects will take effect long before oral rebirth can be used
> 
> ...


Still firing insults? I see you never learn.

Anyway, dont you have a job to go to, old man?

When Genjutsu is somehow the answer to everything you know there is a mental issue attached to the posts.


Icegaze said:


> Wanna *read the manga and my post* maybe
> 
> Before commenting


Like you can talk.



> Manda gets trolled by genjutsu anyone arguing otherwise really should remember
> 
> Manda can't break himself out


But Orochimaru can



> His eyes are so big it's hard not to make eye contact with them


Not only can Itachi not do so at such a range, but while Manda's eyes are big, Itachi's are not the same size, so dont apply human logic to a snake whose eyeball is bigger than a human being - Itachi might be able to see Manda's eyes but its not mutual though is it? Not really.

If Im wrong, bring a panel of Itachi putting genjutsu on a boss summon from such a distance and i will concede



> Itachi crows can cAst genjutsu


And are they getting from the ground to Manda's eyes before he can do anything? No. Just remember how tall these snakes are. Link removed



> Manda is slow enough to be outpaced by tsunade


Tsunade is not slow nor is Manda. Thats just your misogyny/underrating.
Gamabunta held Manda's tail down, and then Tsunade came down on his head. So no, he was not outpaced.



> Lol can't believe this thread though


I cant believe you



Icegaze said:


> Yet to get why manda is immune to finger genjutsu
> 
> Or genjutsu via crow clones even if one is to claim eye contact can't be made between itachi and manda however hilarious that is
> 
> ...


So Manda is slow? Okay @Icegaze, back on block list.

Finger Genjutsu is not working on Manda. I have no feats to suggest so. And there is too much proximity anyway. If Manda goes underground and attacks with his tail ....

.... then Genjutsu becomes a non factor, and Susano'o can't protect Itachi from an unergroudn attack. And you're not using any speed arguments because Tsunade is not slow, and even so, did not outpace him or whatever nonsense. She attacked him while he was busy trying to eat Gamabunta. If he'd taken the Sannin in 1 v 1s he would have easily won. And Manda is not slow. I don't know where you are getting that from.

The only baffling thing is your debating style. You say this thread baffles you, but you aren't even debating properly like the rest of us, so who are you to talk. Go on to your job now old man.



Sapherosth said:


> Come on....the dude says Orochimaru will counter Itachi's Tsukuyomi with Oral rebirth


After the genjutsu is over, he will negate the damage when he spews up a new body



> and talks about how Orochimaru will attack Itachi from underground when we already know for a fact that Susano covers the bottom also.



*Spoiler*: __ 




None of these Susanoos have legs



Itachi is not Edo Madara and does not have legged Susanoo. Nice try at fanfic though.



> Izaya doesn't know what he's talking about and he knows absolutely nothing about Itachi to make an accurate and informed judgement at all.


Its ironic that you would say this, when you are pretending that Itachi is Madara

You said *Itachi's* Susanoo covers the bottom - blatant falsity
You say Kawarimi wont negate the damage he gets from Tsukuyomi - again, blatant falsity. Orochimaru survived a "death" with it. If Tsunade can heal the effects with basic medical ninjutsu, i've no reason to say Oral Rebirth, a regeneration abilty near the level of byakugo will not heal the damage.
You all think Itachi is putting Genjutsu on Manda - again, blatant falsity



> Additionally we've already seen Itachi dodge attacks from underground.


When? And either way, Madara couldnt dodge sand so Itachi is not dodging Extending Kusanagi/Manda/Mokuton



UchihaX28 said:


> If Orochimaru has these counters, then why haven't we seen them in the manga?


So you never saw Manda and ET in the manga?
Well of course we havent seen them in this fight, because Prime Orochimaru vs Itachi never happened. The exchange 10 years ago was not a fight. And also, the Uchiha Hideout battle was an unneutral scenario which suited Itachi, besides the fact Orochimaru was Nerfed whereas Itachi had access to the strongest tool in his arsenal, Totsuka, and had it ready to go.



PhantomSage said:


> Itachi wrecks Orochimaru with Tsukuyomi or Susanoo.


If you came to spout nonsense which has already been addressed, then get out of the debate. You're just looking stupid.



LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Just ask IzayaOrihara to invite you to his conversation were he proved Orochimaru> itachi. Also why Orochimaru will beat itachi. Orochimaru  has some seriously good counters against itachi believe it or not. The counters will honestly tire itachi out to the point we're not only his chakra would be damn near gone. But to the point we're if he uses the sharingan over and over he'll eventually go blind. Plus you have to accept the fact that we'll Orochimaru can summon manda and edo's, has oral rebirth to his disposal.


I've already invited them all at some point, but of course, they ignore it, yet say I am using fanfic (when we saw prime Orochimaru in the manga fighting Hiruzen), yet they are allowed to say Itachi has V3 Legged Susanoo, when he never showed this in the manga.


> Might as well throw this in there, Itachi in part 1 used tsukuyomi twice and amaterasu once and the dude was tired. You got to think about what kisame said too, so yea yo im thinking healthy itachi only advantage over sick itachi is Susano'o usage won't kill him and yo Orochimaru probably won't even need an advantage like that to win


Ive said this all, but they ignored it. The problem here is that they think this is Edo Itachi who suffers no drawbacks from MS usage. I thought this thread was Alive Itachi.

At the end of the day
@Grimmjowsensei - stop insulting people and actually read the posts of others, I'm not assuming Itachi can put Genjutsu on Manda since you totally ignored my initial arguments on that
@Icegaze - back on block list, and back into the hole you crawled out from
@Sapherosth - you're posts are getting nonsensical so I'll start ignoring you now
@LAZLOLAZZING - I've told these people already to come and read through my arguments I assembled in that conversation, yet of course, as Itachi fans do, they will ignore it and come here spouting things which I have already addressed back in 2015, literally. If you can't get someone to read something for almost a year you know these Itachi fanboys have serious mental issues and inferiority insecurity complexes. It's quite sad actually.


From now on if I here anyone say
- Manda gets put in Genjutsu
- Oral Rebirth can't heal the damage of Tsukuyomi
- Itachi has the same legged Susanoo as Edo madara showed in Gokage fight
- Susanoo destroys Orochimaru
- Yamata no Orochi is bigger and stronger than Manda
I will just ignore the post completely, is that clear? Because
- I have proved why this won't happen
- I have proved why this will happen
- That is fanfic (while people say Prime Orochimaru is fanfic, despite the fact we saw him in the manga fighting in chapter 120)
- Manda/LAC + Kusanagi/Edo Hashirama Mokuton destroy Itachi from below Susanoo - Orochimaru is not immobile so Totsuka is dodged
- Databook never said this actually, and even if it did, Manga disproves it, Manga > Databook

as for you @UchihaX28 , you are debating properly, but as I can see from yours and @HandfullofNaruto's exchange, you keep using points that we have already addressed - with all due respect, what makes you think you have the fucking right to do this? That goes to all of you in this thread in fact.
_______________________________________________________________________________

*Spoiler*: _I'm not allowing people to ignore me. I'm posting this again._ 






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Manda gets genjutsu raped within a heartbeat. Which actually happened in the manga, and it was executed by a weaker character.


I already explained many times in the past, that ...

*Spoiler*: _Sasuke was the one who summoned Manda, so was instantly in Genjutsu range_ 










*Spoiler*: _Itachi is not summoning Manda. He is just a small fry on the ground who could not hope to make eye contact._ 




How would Itachi make eye contact with Manda when his head is at this proximity of Itachi
If Shizune had sharingan, would she be able to make eye contact with these snakes? No

This snake is as tall as a castle



When not using their full length, these snakes are twice the height of Konoha

And all of those snakes are smaller than Manda

A summon much smaller than Manda (Manda is already bigger, but can access greater heights by using the length of his tail like those 2 snakes from the Sannin Fight, chapter 166) made a huge forest look like a patch of grass. in that scenario, Itachi would be at the bottom of the gargantuan trees. So how would he make eye contact.

This is Manda's full length

He is taller than Gamabunta with just his head + his neck, no tail included

So Itachi is not making eye-contact. There is not enough proximity. He needs this proximity to land a Genjutsu








Itachi is not putting Genjutsu on a snake which can stand 5 x as tall as the city of Konoha, or much taller than a Toad which made a huge forest look like a patch of grass. Even a fanboy should have enough common sense to know that, and the thing is, you do have the common sense, yet because Itachi is in the picture, you throw all logic out the window.

_______________________________________________________________________________

So, we have this now:

*Shurikenjutsu/Katon:* _Easily dodged, or intercepted by Edo Tobirama's Suiton (for Katon) and Orochimaru's Fuuton: Daitoppa (for Shuriken) or tanked with fodder snake summons._

*Genjutsu: Sharingan:* _Edos break Orochimaru out, Orochimaru breaks Manda out, not that Itahci will land it on him anyway, Edos themselves have no Central Nervous System/Brain so can't get put in it, as we saw with Mugen Tsukuyomi in the War Arc. Finger Genjutsu was used on Naruto at close proximity, so if its so great, why was it never used on Kabuto or Nagato? I have no reason to assume it will be a K.O. for an opponent in a tier above Itachi himself, and as for crow Genjutsu, the crows have to get close to Manda, and thats not happening, and im laughing at the fanfic that Itachi sets all this up while the Edo Tensei Shodai/Nidaime Hokage Reincarnates stand there and do nothing. And why is Orochimaru not chilling on top of Aoda while he sends Manda out to fight? Along with the Edo Zombies that is!_

*Tsukuyomi:* _Orochimaru avoid it by fighting from underground/on top of Manda, or if he gets hit, can repair the brain damage by spewing up a fresh body free of any damage at all (if he can regenerate lost limbs and survive a "death" using Shirohebi Kawarimi, I see no reason why Tsukuyomi, which was trolled by a Shosen no Jutsu, will do anything in this battle)_

*Amaterasu:* _Orochimaru uses Shirohebi Kawarimi. Manda uses Skin Shedding. Edos have no counter but Itachi has only 2 shots at it so if he wastes it on them, while he's on the floor exhausted, there is a chance to attack him. He one shot at Tsukyuomi wont help him. If he goes for two Tsukuyomis and one Amaterasu? Same difference. Can't do anything here._

*Susanoo/Yata Mirror Defence: *_Completely bypassed here. Manda can use his tail to attack from underground so doesn't even have to but himself at risk of Genjutsu. His tail is big enough to cover up the entire inside of Susanoo, so Itachi is not evading it. Orochimaru can do something similar with the Leech All Creation + Extending Kusanagi combo, and also has Edo Hashirama's Mokuton to bind Itachi like it did Hiruzen, and throw him out of Susanoo for Manda to clap his jaws around, ending the battle._

*Totsuka Sword Offence:* _Manda is Bijuu sized, not Susanoo sized like Yamata, and unlike it, has feats such as high speed levels, the ability to go underground, and has a mouth big enough to swallow a Bijuu sized toad, and also, is not immobile like Yamata/Edo Nagato, so the menial feats Totsuka achieved in the manga are not applicable here, considering the sword is big enough to pierce a human's chest, and an entire human is smaller than Manda's eyeball and front teeth, so Manda sidesteps, as does Orochimaru, and if he wants, he could send Edo Tobirama as a decoy for Totsuka, and in canon, besides the fact even Healthy Itachi is heavily exhausted by MS usage, to the point he turns off Sharingan (as we saw in Part 1 [so how is this Finger Genjutsu/Crow Genjutsu fanfic happening]), Totsuka took 4 manga pages to seal it's target, both times it was used, so in that time-lag, Edo Hashirama will be getting Itachi out of Susanoo. If itachi leaves his Susanoo like he did when he sealed Nagato, then Manda will just kill him more easily. Itahci has shown nothing to suggest he can evade all of Manda's attacks and even then, he isn't dodging Mokuton, as well as the threat of Extending Kusanagi._

*Itachi's Portrayal:* _Lolololol, Orochimaru counters that too. Prime Orochimaru is comparable to Base Minato/Prime Hiruzen and superior to Tobirama/Jiraiya, all of whom are superior to Itachi. All Itachi has going for him here is his portrayal of being stronger than Nerfed Forms of Orochimaru, which I don't see as applicable to this battle scenario, where Orochimaru has full use of his arms, allowing him to use Manda and ET, abilities he never had when he lost to Itachi/claimed inferiority, and in this scenario, is fighting to kill Itachi, not take his body, so will make use of his best abilities to fight.

*Overall Objective View of this Fight:* It was stated Itachi with draw with Jiraiya (whom is inferior to the version of Orochimaru in question here) even with assistance from Kisame and other Akatsuki members/lackeys, and Tsunade went up against a much stronger version of Itachi (5 x Edo Rinnegan/Mokuton using Madara V3 Susanoo Clones) and lived to tell the tale, so now tell me why the strongest Sannin, who is comparable to 3 of Itachi's superiors (Prime Hiruzen/Tobirama Senju/Minato Namikaze - much superior than Itachi in fact) is losing this battle.

*That's Long Range mostly, but what about CQC?:* Orochimaru is primarily a long distance fighter, as in, the snakes are like an extension of him, and go far away to attack opponents, plus mokuton usage and all that. If this battle goes into CQC, as Chiyo stated, if its 2 v 1 (its 3 v 1 in this case, 4 if you include Manda), then take the rear. Edo Hashirama will stand behind Orochimaru and break him out of any Genjutsus he gets put in while Tobirama goes forward just in case Itachi surprises them with Totsuka. If he gets sealed, then Hashirama pulls Itachi out of Susanoo for Orochimaru to kill using Manda, or Orochimaru just goes underground himself and attacks with Extending Kusanagi, in the same way he did to Four-Tailed naruto (*cough*cough* who Itachi himself cannot even defeat  *cough*cough*). Aside that, if this gets into real real close CQC, Orochimaru can go underground to avoid Genjutsu, pop his head out and use a Curse Mark, make use of poisons (like he did on Log in the Mitsuki Side Story Chapter, or use Sōjasōsai no Jutsu) as well as Kusanagi (Ku no Tachi, or the "gunshot"-esque way he used it on Sai) aside Seneijashu (when Kabuto used fodder snakes, Itachi needed V3 Susanoo to block it, and to beat a unch of Susanoo sized snakes, he needed Totsuka, his ultimate offence, so why people think Itachi is beating a Bijuu sized snake, I can never bring myself to understand)_

Based on all of this, have I been able to change your opinions? If not, I will abort thread (wasn't my thread to begin with to be honest), because I am a 17 year old boy with my whole life ahead of me, and ive got college (thats why I've been off NF for such long periods recently), and I can't sit here day after day arguing with people older than my school teachers, over a very simple topic, that is easy to absorb if you carry no bias for either of the characters involved (as @HandfullofNaruto, @LAZLOLAZZING and @Isaiah13000) have said,

so even if you disagree, I wouldn't care, as I know the truth at the end of the day, and you all carry bias for Itachi (well, 90% of you do) so again, I'll take the opinion of those 3 (2 of whom have actually read my essay, @HandfullofNaruto read the original, and @LAZLOLAZZING read the new one he was telling @Sapherosth and the others about, @Isaiah13000 didn't even need an essay for me to change his mind, and again, he isn't biased for Itachi, so isn't that telling you something?).

If I receive a reply that contains any of the following
- arguments I, @IzayaOrihara and @HandfullofNaruto have already addressed
- half assed, one sentence responses
- spam/flaming/bait etc etc
- @Icegaze's opinion
- a response like @Grimmjowsensei has done twice (in different threads related to Itachi), which just ignores everything i've said then goes to spout nonsensical falsities
- fan-fiction/non-canon arguments (such as Itachi having Edo Madara/War Arc Sasuke's legged Susanoo) while calling "my" version of Orochimaru a fanfic (despite the fact we saw him face Hiruzen on the Lookout Tower, not that many people would know that as 70% of you have not read the manga before coming on this forum)
- Responses like this ()
Then I will just ignore you completely. I only have time for people like @UchihaX28 that actually know how to debate. A debate is an exchange of logic. An argument is an exchange of ignorance, and I did not come on here to argue with 30 year olds. I don't see why I should be doing that.

And one more thing, I didn't even talk about, two things actually:
- Kanashibari no Jutsu ('] How is Itachi countering this? And don't give me the D-Rank Jutsu excuse. "The power of the technique depends on the skill of the user" and Orochimaru is one of the Legendary Sannin, not your run of the mill ninja (Link removed).
- I talked about this (Link removed) usage of poison in CQC, but even if all else failed and Itachi fans wanted to ignore all of the logic I used, how is Itachi countering this (Link removed Sasuke was immunity to poisons (Link removed) yet was still paralysed. In Itachi's situation, he will be paralysed and killed nigh-instantly, and yes, instantly, because if Anko can use poison (Link removed) (Link removed) to kill someone instantly (), then I see no reason why that neurotoxin won't turn Itachi into a corpse very quickly. It's a good surprise, last resort ability Orochimaru can use to turn the tables if Itachi somehow counters all of Orochimaru's abilities, which from an objective standing, is not going to happen here.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Now sorry that this post has been very long winded. What I'm about to say now is something I prepared ages ago. It probably repeats some of the things i've said already, and I'd just like to get it out of my system.

@Icegaze, you said ET Zombies get put in Genjutsu. Is Genjutsu: Sharingan, more potent than the Mugen Tsukuyomi which all the Edo Zombies resisted? Anyway, Orochimaru breaks them out. And no one said the snake summons would break Orochimaru out. We said he would break the snakes out, not that Itachi is making eye-contact with Manda in the first place. Anyway ...



Sapherosth said:


> Erm.....but then you used Portrayal of Jiraiya > Itachi to justify your points about how It's illogical and retarded of Kishi to make Orochimaru weaker than Itachi, then you tried to argue that Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi.
> 
> Da fuq?





Sapherosth said:


> Might as well go and say "fuck you, I ain't buying your shit. That's not how it's supposed to go" to Kishimoto.



My argument has always been Prime Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru, manga trends support it 100% And Orochimaru is not better because he is stronger than Jiraiya (despite ABC logic being valid). He is better because his abilities counter Itachi's abilities, as I have shown time and time again. Whether you want to read my essays like @HandfullofNaruto (disagreed with most of it and still believes me) and @LAZLOLAZZING (read parts of it) / be unbiased like @Isaiah13000, or you want to just use your favouritism of Itachi to decide he wins the battle, is up to you.



Kai said:


> It would only make no sense if A) Orochimaru and Minato were ever in competition for the Hokage seat, which is something you can't prove.



*Spoiler*: __ 









> I don't find it likely, given Jiraiya was Minato's sensei so there is a discernible generational gap to consider. Naruto and Kakashi are prime examples of this. B) Being stronger doesn't make one more qualified to be the Hokage, especially if one is very young. Naruto and Kakashi are also prime examples of this. Of course, you can bring up Hiruzen at 15 but that doesn't apply as strongly to this case as he wasn't comparable to others (mentors, friends) that we know of in his era for Sandaime.


That is not the only time they were compared
*Spoiler*: __ 









And notice how Orochimaru had his arms on both occasions? Not the armless one that was portrayed below Itachi.
@HandfullofNaruto has probably said most of this, but I will say it again.
*
1. OROCHIMARU > ITACHI (HYPE/PORTRAYAL)*
Section 1

In Part 1, Kakashi Hatake had the confidence to engage Itachi in battle, yet feared Orochimaru so much that he felt he could not fight him, showing that he saw Orochimaru as a more dangerous opponent than Itachi.
Orochimaru, on three separate occasions, has been compared to Minato Namikaze, whom was superior to Itachi.
Orochimaru was stronger than Jiraiya (don't really need to explain this), who was also superior to Itachi, even if only slightly.
Orochimaru was superior to Tobirama Senju, another person who was superior to Itachi.
Section 2

Orochimaru stated he could not acquire Itachi's body
Orochimaru said it again for those who didn't hear the first time when he fought Drugged Jiraiya
Sasuke said Orochimaru could not defeat Itachi
Orochimaru was repelled and injured by Itachi ??? years ago
Orochimaru was sealed at the Uchiha Hideout, but started the "battle" in a disadvantageous starting-point (people can say Itachi was sick, whatever, he had Totsuka out and ready on the go, thats better than Itachi starting healthy and in base, because Totsuka is the best thing in his arsenal)
Do you notice how every time Orochimaru was portrayed below Itachi in Section 2, he either did not have his arms, or was sick, or not at full power, or for any reason, restricted from fighting to his full ability (such as having no killing intent in the exchange ??? years ago when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki), if they were even fighting at all in some of those instances.

Section 3

Hebi Sasuke confirmed that when Orochimaru lost to him, it was because he was weakened, after his fight with Deidara.
EMS Sasuke and Suigetsu re-confirmed that in the war arc, that he only lost because his arms were sealed.
So you can see for yourself, that Shiki Fujin did indeed, nerf Orochimaru (many people have denied this, for what reason, I don't know, maybe to wank Itachi), and Suigetsu implied Prime Orochimaru could have been a threat to EMS Sasuke, and both statements confirm Prime Orochimaru would have defeated Hebi Sasuke in battle.

Orochimaru cannot be stronger than Itachi and weaker than Itachi at the same time, and you can see there was a *consistent trend *of how _when Orochimaru was fully powered, he was above Itachi, and when he had any sort of nerfing, he was below Itachi. _This trend is consistent with no anomalies.

So now, let's solve this inequality/inconsistency:
Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru. Simple as that. Why is it so hard to accept/understand?
*
2. OROCHIMARU > ITACHI (FEATS/ABILITIES)*

Shuriken - Fuuton: Daitoppa/Dodge
Katon - Suiton: Suijinheki/Dodge
Genjutsu - Partner Method/Stay out of range (either below ground with LAC or above using Manda)
Tsukuyomi - Stay Out of Range/Shirohebi Kawarimi
Amaterasu - Shirohebi Kawarimi/Manda Skin Moulting
Susano'o - bypass defence by attacking underground using Mokuton/LAC + Kusanagi/Manda
Totsuka no Tsurugi - Dodge/Send Edo Tobirama forward as a decoy when V4 Susano'o emerges
Yata no Kagami - bypass defence by attacking underground using Mokuton/LAC + Kusanagi/Manda
Short Range CQC-fighting - Curse Mark/Gogyo Fuin/Kusanagi: Ku no Tachi/Tongue/Edo's Taijutsu/Poison usage/Sojasosai/Jagei Jubaku
Long Range distanced fighting - Manda (he fights from a distance where Orochimaru himself is concerned)/Mokuton/Daitoppa/Kusanagi: Ku no Tachi/Soft Physique Modification via Tongue/Extending Kusanagi/Mandara no Jin
Again, what part of this are people not understanding? Orochimaru's two most useful weapons against Itachi is Kuchiyose (Manda/Edo Tensei), an ability he cannot use if his arms are sealed/won't use if he is trying to take Itachi's body with limited knowledge on Itachi's capabilities. What part of this don't people get? Prime Orochimaru would have defeated Itachi in an actual fight. Again, what part of this are people not able to grasp? If Jiraiya can beat Itachi why can't Orochimaru?

*3. AND FINALLY, UNCOVERING SOME MISCONCEPTIONS*

The relationship between "Prime Orochimaru and Nerfed Orochimaru"
I can't remember the threads, but I wish I could, because I can remember two instances where someone basically claimed that Part 1 Orochimaru with arms (Manda/Aoda/San Kyodaija etc Edo Tensei/Curse Mark/Gogyo Fuin/Kanashibari no Jutsu etc) is equal to a Part 2 Orochimaru with no arms (who has none of those powers, yet still as Kawarimi/Yamata/Shirohebi Form/Mandara no Jin/Senei jashu/Jagei Jubaku/Rashomon/Sanjuu Rashomon, all abilties which require no hand seals) let alone end of Part 1 Orochimaru (Sannin fight Orochimaru, who loses a lot of those abiltiies he had in Part 2 let alone his Part 1 abilities). Simply put, these ninjas are not the same. Part 1 Orochimaru that has all his abilities, has Manda and Edo Tensei, abilties he did not have/wss not going to use when he claimed inferiority to/was beaten by/was trying to take the body of Itachi Uchiha.

The relationship between "Prime Orochimaru" and "SM Kabuto" / "Healthy Itachi" and "Edo Itachi"
People's excuse to wank Itachi is usually that an immortal, unlimited stamina version of Itachi beat a better version of Orochimaru. Firstly, Itachi is alive here, not immortal, does not have unlimited stamina, and using MS 3 times will cause his Sharingan to deactivate. And secondly, I don't know who is stronger between Prime Orochimaru and SM Kabuto, im not here to discuss that, but what I do know is that, the abilities that Orochimaru would use to fight Itachi (Edo Tensei and Manda) are abilities Kabuto did not have (he cannot summon Manda 2.0 in a small cave, and if he had Part 1 Edo Senju Bros., they would have been on the war battlefield anyway) so why make that comparison? SM Kabuto in the cave, and Prime Orochimaru in a location like the Sannin Battlefield, are two completely different fighters. Just because they share some abilities doesn't mean they are the same. Thats like saying Tobirama and Minato are the same because they share two common jutsus. Its such a silly thing to do and people only use that argument to put Itachi above Prime Orochimaru because they dont have any feats arguments in the first place. All they can do is reuse arguments I have already countered.

*Spoiler*: _And as for Jiraiya vs Itachi_ 






Platypus said:


> Eh, depends on the translation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(With all due respect/no offence) You don't get to decide which one makes sense. If the VIZ is from a more reliable source, then yes, but if ShounenSuki's translation is more reliable, then that is the one we are going with.



_____________________________________________________________________



*Spoiler*: _And that's all I have to say, and remember,_ 




Based on all of this, have I been able to change your opinions? If not, I will abort thread (wasn't my thread to begin with to be honest), because I am a 17 year old boy with my whole life ahead of me, and ive got college (thats why I've been off NF for such long periods recently), and I can't sit here day after day arguing with people older than my school teachers, over a very simple topic, that is easy to absorb if you carry no bias for either of the characters involved (as @HandfullofNaruto, @LAZLOLAZZING and @Isaiah13000) have said,

so even if you disagree, I wouldn't care, as I know the truth at the end of the day, and you all carry bias for Itachi (well, 90% of you do) so again, I'll take the opinion of those 3 (2 of whom have actually read my essay, @HandfullofNaruto read the original, and @LAZLOLAZZING read the new one he was telling @Sapherosth and the others about, @Isaiah13000 didn't even need an essay for me to change his mind, and again, he isn't biased for Itachi, so isn't that telling you something?).

If I receive a reply that contains any of the following
- arguments I, @IzayaOrihara and @HandfullofNaruto have already addressed
- half assed, one sentence responses
- spam/flaming/bait etc etc
- @Icegaze's opinion
- a response like @Grimmjowsensei has done twice (in different threads related to Itachi), which just ignores everything i've said then goes to spout nonsensical falsities
- fan-fiction/non-canon arguments (such as Itachi having Edo Madara/War Arc Sasuke's legged Susanoo) while calling "my" version of Orochimaru a fanfic (despite the fact we saw him face Hiruzen on the Lookout Tower, not that many people would know that as 70% of you have not read the manga before coming on this forum)
Then I will just ignore you completely. I only have time for people like @UchihaX28 that actually know how to debate. A debate is an exchange of logic. An argument is an exchange of ignorance, and I did not come on here to argue with 30 year olds. I don't see why I should be doing that.



			
				Sapherosth said:
			
		

> and talks about how Orochimaru will attack Itachi from underground when we already know for a fact that Susano covers the bottom also.


Yeah ... I'm gonna be ignoring all @Sapherosth posts from now on.




And the very last thing I will quickly say is this: I don't care if my opinion is minority. Forum consensus matters not to me. Most people here think Itachi can beat Kaguya, and the manga disagrees, so having a minority opinion does not mean one is wrong, especially when 90% of the posters on this forum carry favourite-character bias for Itachi Uchiha. Anyway, that's it. I'm done now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 20, 2016)

Lolz such a troll
Manda has zero feats suggesting he got better chakra control than narjto so he gets trolled by finger genjutsu

He is slow because rusty tsunade could intercept him

That's a fact



No one believes itachi can beat kaguya

Not one person

I see you are trapped in your own delusions

We saw on panel 2 different types of genjutsu work on ET itachi !!

So ET aren't immune to genjutsu 

Child you are simply trapped in your mind here 

Tayuya genjutsu could catch an ET who has shown far more genjutsu skill than most 

Sasuke Ms genjutsu could also break itachi out of tayuya 

Lastly koto over wrote ET control 

That's 3 genjutsu which worked on ET 

So yes ET will get played with by genjutsu 

Honestly minority is an understatement 

You trying to claim genjutsu won't work on ET is instantity


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lolz such a troll
> Manda has zero feats suggesting he got better chakra control than narjto so he gets trolled by finger genjutsu
> 
> He is slow because rusty tsunade could intercept him
> ...


Not a detailled response - ignoring


> No one believes itachi can beat kaguya


If I remembered the thread I would quote the post for you


> Not one person
> 
> I see you are trapped in your own delusions


Cool story bro! - Putting you on block list now anyway. Have a nice day, and oh, go to your job, Mr. 28 year old. You call me a troll? Based on the quality of your response, it is you who is a troll.

Any real responses?


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## Icegaze (Jun 20, 2016)

Poor kid 

Life been hard on you 



Only guy I know needs to have a dupe account 

Not one poster agrees with ur delusion


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 20, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You know that's not true. Minato and Itachi were the only ones portrayed as being decisively above Orochimaru at the time.


 That is only a single thing they have in common.



VolatileSoul said:


> How? Because his teacher and rival wanked him to high heaven? There's no end to the amount of powerful Shinobi themselves praising Itachi's prowess, and among them was the black goop retconned into being the molder of history and will of strongest entity to ever exist. It's not like Minato was the only one getting terms like unsurpassed thrown around either, since Itachi was flat out called invincible and perfect.


 Except, when Zetsu praised Itachi he also didn't know what a Susanoo was and he wasn't speaking from personal experience, but from old myths and legends. Itachi himself also denounced how "perfect" he was and said that he is overestimated.



VolatileSoul said:


> He then proceeded to break the record of the forrest of death. A tad more impressive than scoring higher on a test in which the grades don't even matter. That, and he took the exam at the same age Minato graduated from the academy.


 Alright, you win here. 



VolatileSoul said:


> That he doubts his chances and believes he'd at best draw is exactly where the implication of equality comes from. Anything else would either be expressing confidence in a sure victory which would imply superiority, or saying he'd lose which would imply clear inferiority.
> 
> Itachi flat out told a Sannin that all his techniques were useless before his eyes, so clearly he doesn't agree with Kisame's sentiment, and that same Sannin stating Itachi was stronger than him by no small margin while believing himself Jiraiya's better, goes a bit beyond hype. It flat out portrays him as better since they're all considered equals.


 Itachi is only stronger than PIS, CIS, and WIS nerfed versions of Orochimaru, he is not stronger than Orochimaru at his strongest. As for the issue with Jiraiya, I'm not seeing how that is an implication of equality. If anything, it's a slight implication of inferiority or at the very best equality. It in no way puts him above the Sannin, and still keeps him within their general tier which is below that of Minato's. 



Sapherosth said:


> You've got to be kidding me. You are right that Minato had a higher score than Itachi in the Chunin test exam in the Novel, however, you must also take into consideration that Itachi was several years YOUNGER than Minato when he took the test. If Itachi was the same age as Minato when he took the test, I don't doubt he could've done much better.


 Look above.



> I can also say that Sasuke believed that Itachi was the perfect Shinobi even after obtaining EMS, and the first Hokage said he was a better shinobi than himself as well, and Zetsu as well. Come on....God Of Shinobi and Son of Kaguya's words > Jiraiya+A any day of the week.


 Sasuke is an Itachi wanker (like Kishi himself), Hashirama was referring to Itachi's character, not his abilities. As for Zetsu, he didn't even know what a Susanoo was, and Itachi himself counteracted his "perfect" hype by stating that he is overestimated and falsely believed he was unstoppable. 



> Itachi never said "at best he could force a tie"... You're obviously reading the wrong translation.
> 
> In the VIZ he said -
> 
> ...


 That still doesn't indicate superiority, all I get from that is that he is possibly equal to Jiraiya.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 20, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Except, when Zetsu praised Itachi he also didn't know what a Susanoo was and he wasn't speaking from personal experience, but from old myths and legends. Itachi himself also denounced how "perfect" he was and said that he is overestimated.
> 
> Alright, you win here



I called Black Zetsu a retcon didn't I?.

He wasn't praising him because of Susano'o in the first place, but those weapons specifically. Seeing as he is probably as old as legends themselves and saw things far beyond that scope with his own eyes anyway, that matters little. 

Well no shit he isn't perfect. No one is. He isn't invincible either, but seeing as Minato is also neither of these things, it's no slight against Itachi.


> Itachi is only stronger than PIS, CIS, and WIS nerfed versions of Orochimaru, he is not stronger than Orochimaru at his strongest.



Based on what? Did anywhere ever show Orochimaru lamenting that he would defeat him if he was at his best, or Itachi saying he could only beat him due to some restriction like Sasuke did? No. It flat out portrayed him as better, and went out of it's way to reiterate this fact with multiple character statements and two entirely one sided bouts. Orochimaru flat out said getting him was an impossible dream. It doesn't get any clearer than that.



> As for the issue with Jiraiya, I'm not seeing how that is an implication of equality. If anything, it's a slight implication of inferiority or at the very best equality. It in no way puts him above the Sannin, and still keeps him within their general tier which is below that of Minato's.


And I'm not seeing how you perceive it as anything but that. The VIZ translation only makes it clearer. That statement is as explicit as it gets.

In any case I can't help but said that statement as dubious at best and bullshit at worst, thanks to Orochimaru's own admission flat out contradicting it and Itachi's proclivity for lying through his teeth. Kisame questioning why he even had to flee just make it not the most credible thing around. But I'll leave it at that.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yet to get why manda is immune to finger genjutsu


 Ephemeral has only been used at short-range. DB classified it as short-range. Manda can avoid Ephemeral two ways. Range & Partner method.



> Or genjutsu via crow clones


 A crow clone will be easily avoided. It will have to keep up with Mandas height & movements. They've never shown such ability. 





> even if one is to claim eye contact can't be made between itachi and manda however hilarious that is


 ...


> Itachi crows themselves can fly to manda and point blank genjutsu the slow snake


 This sentence is so false... It baffles me.
Manda isn't slow.
Crows can't keep up with the snake, once his crow nears his eyeball, he'll be diving underground in less than an instant.



> This thread baffles me


 I bet it does.

Edit: if calling me a dupe helps you sleep at night, go right ahead.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Okay.
> 
> I'm going to need you to elaborate. You mean he can start controlling sand from 20 meters away just by using his chakra? Or use _his sand_ to go grind up that sand/dirt and spread his chakra through it.
> 
> I*f you're saying he can just add his chakra to any grain of sand, from any distance I'd need a scan or DB reference supported by the manga that says so. If you're just saying he can use his sand to spread his chakra well..*



 Yeah, I'm essentially saying that he uses his sand to grind up all of the minerals within the ground to create more sand and then reinforces them and manipulates them with chakra. If he can manipulate sand from very large distances (as shown in the manga), then he's obviously capable of reinforcing his sand with chakra from a very large distance as well because that's literally something that precedes the manipulation of his sand. 

 As for the bold, if he can manipulate sand from large distances which has been shown in the manga, then it's because he's capable of spreading his chakra over a large distance because everything in the manga is manipulated through usage of chakra. This isn't an unusual concept at all. We've witnessed how ninja can manipulate water for ninjutsu or how ninjas such as Onoki can cause the ground to rise just by using chakra.




> Okay.. so if he can maintain it at long distance he can logically initiate it at long distance. That makes sense.. I have a question though.
> 
> Does this mean Naruto could create a shadow clone 80 meters away from him? He normally creates a shadow clone right next to his body. However the shadow clones can travel far distances before Naruto actually loses control. So could Naruto just use the shadow clone jutsu and create a shadow clone 80 meters away?



 No it doesn't because Naruto isn't really connected with the clones after they're created. He doesn't manipulate them with chakra in anyway at all, they're just left to their own devices unlike Genjutsu or Sand that constantly requires a connection through chakra.




> Sorry I'm not good with examples lol.
> Establishing and Maintaining are two separate things. Can you show me that scan of Ao mentioning Shisui? I've been looking but can't find it.



 Ao knew Shisui and he's battled him before yet he stated the only one who could manipulate shinobi with Genjutsu even outside of a sensor's range was Itachi. Shisui has KotoAmatsukami that can be applied at any distance yet only Itachi could accomplish this feat. That suggests that maintaining a genjutsu connection from a large distance is harder than establishing it from a larger distance, so it makes sense that if Itachi can maintain a genjutsu connection from a far distance that he can also establish one from a large distance as well.



> These are all Sasuke Genjutsu. He's inferior to Itachi when it comes to Genjutsu and maybe it's because that range ever consider that lol? Let's stop giving Itachi other people's feats. I haven't been using other people's feats for Orochimaru. I stick to only Orochimaru feats.



 If he's inferior to Itachi in terms of Genjutsu yet he's also used it from a farther distance, then why can't Itachi because he's literally better in every single way? I don't get it. It's like saying that if Madara = Hashirama in speed, and Madara can blitz SM Naruto, then that doesn't mean Hashirama can also blitz SM Naruto even though they're equal. Makes no sense. Obviously we can carry over someone else's feats for another individual if we have a reason to do so.



> Madara controlled Kurama and *then put the world into Infinite Tsukyomi*.



 That's an example of Chakra Potency and the bold was a feat performed by a Juubi Jin with Kaguya's Power.



> A tool is only as powerful as someone that uses it. So are you implying that Madara didn't use his Sharingan Genjutsu as skillfully as Itachi? Because we never got to Madara fight and all that or just because Itachis Genjutsu skills are just superior.?



 That's exactly what I'm saying and the context of Sasuke's statement was referring to skill. An expert with a stone can beat a Novice with a Shuriken based on how each weapon is used, so Itachi who's the expert can still be superior to Madara who's the Novice because of how he employs his Genjutsu.

 Madara has the stronger tool, but Itachi's better in using it when it comes to Genjutsu.

 The only thing we've never really seen with Madara were his MS Powers, but we've witnessed his usage of Genjutsu and it was rather straight-forward. He doesn't have any statements that commend him for his Genjutsu prowess the way Itachi does.



> That's Kurama. Not Manda. Mandas size has never been inconsistent. If you want it to be inconsistent for the first time ever.. fine! Mandas size is now smaller. I'm not sure how much smaller though. So why don't you tell us how small Manda is _now. _
> 
> Manga is Manga. What's inconsistent is inconsistent. Mandas size was never inconsistent. The only time it was inconsistent was when the DB said Hydra is larger. Manga>DB. If we went by the DB only.. Sharingan Genjutsu Short-Range. Take your pick.



 You're missing the point. That example shows that Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about scaling at all. We can't compare head sizes of Manda/Hydra in comparison to Orochimaru because that's literally suggesting that Manda is easily larger than RSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar being Naruto's size relative to his Avatar's head is significantly lower. Kishimoto didn't care about scaling in that sort of way, so using this logic is obviously flawed.

 Manda has only been shown twice, so it's anyone's guess how large he's remained, but considering everything in Part 2 were suddenly scaled back significantly, there's really no logical reason why Manda wasn't. It'd be incredibly biased and intellectually dishonest of you if you think Manda is dozens of times larger than Gamabunta because Manda wasn't shown to have grown smaller in Part 2 whereas Gamabunta was. 



> Katsuyus size can be changed since only a percentage of her real body is actually summoned. So Katsuyu can't really be used as an example, which is why I tried to avoid her when presenting my argument. Manda is a lot larger than Gamabunta, have you seen the scan of the three way dead lock?



 No, Sakura certainly summoned the same Katsuyu because Minato and Hiruzen were reminded of the Three-Way-Kuchiyose-Deadlock as it were in the past with each of the Summons shown being relatively the same size. 

 For the most part, Katsuyu's size has always remained consistent. 

 Gamabunta was the size of the building where the Hokages reside in:

 Link removed

 And later we see that's the case with Katsuyu:

 Link removed

 So yes, Katsuyu's size has remained consistent, so if Katsuyu is the size of Gamakichi and Aoda, then Gamakichi and Aoda are also the same size as Gamabunta and Manda which aligns perfectly to Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto reminding Minato and Hiruzen of the Three-Way-Kuchiyose-Deadlock. That contradicts your whole argument on Aoda being smaller than Manda, so if they're the same size, then P2 Scaling also applies to Manda correct? And since Aoda's head is smaller than Manda's, we cannot make a comparison between Manda and Aoda's heads to justify why Manda is larger than Aoda or Hydra for that matter.



> If his opponent is a walking anti-sagemode. Hydra can be Orochimarus strongest technique but when facing Itachi, Manda is obviously the better choice.





 Concession accepted. If Byakugou and Sage Mode are considered the pinnacle of Tsunade and Jiraiya's abilities against every opponent, then there's no reason the same wouldn't apply to Hydra.



> We have only seen Itachi use Genjutsu at short range.
> 
> I'm not saying he used it only at short-range therefore he can only use it at short-range. I'm saying He's only used it at short-range and DB supports this by saying Sharingan Genjutsu is short range. I take that and apply it to our fight to say:
> Orochimaru can: Summon Manda to stay out of range.
> ...



 No, you're justifying a Databook statement through a fallacy where something is false because it hasn't been proven true. In your case, you're argument relies on a Databook statement through the fallacy where Itachi cannot use Sharingan Genjutsu from a far distance because it hasn't been proven true in the manga.



> ET can avoid Genjutsu because Orochimaru is able to partner method from any distance.
> Manda can avoid Genjutsu: Hundreds of feet in the air.
> Closed eyes.
> Hundreds of feet below ground.
> Partner method.



 Fair point on the Edo Tensei, but some of these such as Manda countering Sharingan Genjutsu and Manda avoiding Genjutsu hundreds of feet in the air. I already addressed why he can't. 

 Burrowing underground is a viable thing Manda can do, but not in front of the Sharingan.



> Yes he was. When you summon Manda you appear on his head. That puts you in immediate Genjutsu range. That's obvious. Are you saying he summoned Manda and wasn't in immediate Genjutsu range? But had to get into range while C0 was active? That's something you're assuming here.



 Actually, not always and that would make it harder to initiate eye contact if Sasuke was on top of Manda's head which even then, that's still above what would be considered close-range.



> No it does not.
> I've already stated how Orochimaru deals with everything Itachi can dish out. It's all supported by the manga.



 Not really, no. 



> Ugh. I've addressed this too many times. When it comes to the quotes you either buy it or you don't. It really doesn't change the battle scenario.



 Not really, no. Izaya may have, but his reasoning is very flawed, so I disagree with it.

 What we're arguing here isn't even related to this battle scenario where War Arc Orochimaru could win due to Edo Tensei, but that's obviously not even what we're arguing here. 



> All I learned was Orochimaru gets ridiculously weak when he needs a body. So weak he loses to the Uchiha orphan rats. Your glass can be half empty or half full my friend.



 Really? You didn't learn that Orochimaru's abilities are useless in front of the eyes of a Skilled Uchiha? Why do you think that situation was compared to a Healthy Orochimaru vs. Itachi, where Orochimaru's jutsu were useless in front of Orochimaru? It's making it clear that a Skilled Sharingan could counter Orochimaru.



> I'm not trying to making a fool out of you at all. I just want to display my feelings towards your "argument".



 That's not a very nice way to display your feelings then. Almost made me cry. Almost though. 



> The closest thing I saw to a fight was Hydra va Susanoo and that was the furthest thing from a fight. Body snatching & murder are two other things if you fail to see that, it's not my problem.



 If you're arguing that Orochimaru was attempting to snatch his body, don't, because he was obviously trying to kill him as there was no point in taking Itachi's body at that point. 



> Yes, you did. My entire argument doesn't revolve around Manda. Orochimaru wins with Manda restricted.





 Yet you're trying to justify why Itachi beating Orochimaru's strongest technique doesn't imply that Itachi can beat Orochimaru because he has Manda.



> Show me a scan of ITACHI using Sharingan Genjutsu from a distance that isn't short-range. I'm not saying he's incapable. In this battle scenario he would not be able to apply *even Sasukes* feats.



 Argumentum ad Ignorantum and you're being intellectually dishonest if he can't even use Sasuke's feats.

 Quit referring to the battle scenario, that's not even what we were discussing.



> I'll do this one last time, if you want a nicer version go to pg.3:
> Shuriken/Katon: ET, Snake Summons, Rashomon, LAC, Mandara no Jin.
> Genjutsu: Manda, ET & Eye Contact, also he could also try to release himself. In a "paralysis genjutsu" he was able to move his arms.
> Amaterasu: Oral Rebirth
> ...



 1. So basically, Orochimaru can counter Shuriken/Katon when faster ninja couldn't. 
 2. If Genjutsu could be countered, then why did he engage in "Genjutsu Range" and continue getting demolished by it twice? There's absolutely no basis for what you're saying. All jutsu is useless in front of the Sharingan was proven true when Orochimaru got spanked twice because of it.
 3. That depends. Sasuke could only manage it because Itachi lacked killer intent and the fact that Sasuke defended himself with his wings.
 4. Oral Rebirth can't counter psychological damage.
 5. No, they do not counter Susano'o.
 6. Not really, no. Summons aren't that fast for higher level ninja. Why do you think Pain evaded 3 Boss Toads with ease?



> I said you cannot substantiate your arguments because you've talked about nothing but Manda, tried to downplay his consistent size, gave Itachi Sharingan Genjutsu that "wasn't shown in the manga" & did it all with no solid proof.
> 
> I'm done arguing Manda with you. If you want, lets restrict him from our argument.
> 
> I'm not going to edit this post either so if there are any typos or problems with quoting I apologize.



 No I haven't and you can stop trying to substantiate your arguments by trying to make it seem as if I'm literally discussing about Manda or downplaying him this entire time. I'm arguing exactly what's straight from the manga and Kishimoto's words and it's being intellectually dishonest of you to think that your subjective view of Manda is more credible than Kishimoto's own words. 

 But still, you're sticking with the same contradictory logic by pinning it on me that there is no solid proof that Itachi's Genjutsu can beat Orochimaru when the same applies to Orochimaru's counters against Itachi. Burden of proof is on you to prove that Orochimaru being able to counter Itachi's abilities aligns perfectly to the manga.


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## Parallaxis (Jun 20, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Oh jesus
> War Arc Orochimaru is overkill
> 
> Like he needs them to win
> ...



You make Lots of good points, but I don't see why you have to be so aggressive and literally write a whole essay. I mean, you think anyone who thinks Itachi would win this battle is an ignorant, biased fool.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> You make Lots of good points, but I don't see why you have to be so aggressive and literally write a whole essay. I mean, you think anyone who thinks Itachi would win this battle is an ignorant, biased fool.



 That's what people think, he makes long, pointless essays for no reason when he can just convey his thoughts in a more concise manner.


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## Parallaxis (Jun 20, 2016)

Also, I wouldn't say Itachi was severely fatigued after using Tsukuyomi twice and Ametarasu once. I mean, you could still see him running on the water with Kisame, not like he's tired to the point where he's lying down and vulnerable.

Also, you're pretty full of yourself aren't you? Seeing how you state that your essay is flawless and perfect, and that the OP is trying to get you banned by making this thread.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 20, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Okay, sorry for the late replies everyone. But first things first, I'd like to ask everyone two questions,
> 
> 
> Why is it such a problem for Itachi to lose a battle? Why?
> ...








Susano covers the fucking bottom. Go look it up.  50% of your argument has just gone to shit.

The 2 weak edo tensei's gets man handled by Itachi's kagebunshin. Itachi's kagebunshin has been shown able to cast genjutsu on Naruto without him even realising and Naruto wasn't even looking at his eyes. Itachi's clones will undoubtedly place the 2 weak edo's of Hashirama and Tobirama in a genjutsu easily. Orochimaru isn't "breaking anyone out of genjutsu" because Itachi will be the one on his ass pressuring him, NOT the other way around.

Itachi's Tosuka sword stabs Manda EASILY due to its huge size. It cannot even be debated when a rusty/slow Tsunade was able to intercept and pierce Manda with a huge ass sword. Itachi's Tosuka sword has already been shown to be too fast for Orochimaru to even notice. It wasn't because Orochimaru couldn't move but because he wasn't able to react at all.

Oral rebirth cannot reverse Tsukuyomi. That's absolutely bullshit.

Orochimaru has NEVER shown to be able to fight completely long range. ALL of his fights have been CQC, against Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Itachi, Sasuke, Itachi, Tsunade, Yamamoto.   Literally ALL of his fights. There's NOTHING suggest that Orochimaru can suddenly fight effectively at long range and Itachi cannot do anything about it.

Orochimaru is NOT outsmarting Itachi in anyway whatsoever. Itachi managed to intercept Kabuto's movements and countered him based on his ability to READ HEARTS/MINDS. Itachi can predict and counter anything Orochimaru throws at him.

Once again, Edo tensei's are non-factor against Itachi's crow clones because they can easily put them into a genjutsu. Additionally, there's NOTHING to suggest that the Mindless Edo tensei's are capable of "helping" Orochimaru using the partner method on anyone because they are not capable of thinking, only of killing once the command has been given. Orochimaru won't be able to give any new command once he's in a genjutsu.

Itachi's reflexes FAR exceeds anything that Orochimaru, Manda, Edo Hashi/Tobirama can dish out so he can dance around them and pick them off one by one if need be.

I actually laughed when you said that Manda will stick his tail under the ground and hit itachi from under his Susano..... Can I have some feats of him doing that?  And why can't I easily say that Sharingan can see through objects (even underground) and he stabs Manda from underground with Tosuka sword?

I can also say Itachi genjutsu Manda and Manda eats Orochimaru before he has a chance to react. Your only strategy was that Orochimaru stays on top of Manda throughout the fight, but you neglect the fact that Manda gets low-diff easily by genjutsu and Tosuka, so Orochimaru now has no way of "keeping a distance" from Itachi at all and proceeds to get fucked by Tsukuyomi.

Manda's so called "speed" gets intercepted by Itachi's vastly superior reflexes and sharingan...not even debatable.

Your Portrayal is flawed as fuck.

"Kakashi was scared against Orochimaru but he wasn't scared of Itachi" so that means Oro -> Itachi ?

Well, great... that must mean Orochimaru > Rinnegan Obito, Juubi, Kaguya as well, since Kakashi didn't show any fear towards them.


Lets face it.....Orochimaru got fucked twice by Itachi. You cannot make excuses for that because Itachi even said he knows about Orochimaru's technique (including the body replacement technique which he said it takes a lot of chakra)

This means Orochimaru must have used it in their first battle or any other attempts Orochimaru tried to fight against Itachi.

Itachi then stated that he recognised "this feeling" meaning Orochimaru's hydra technique WAS USED IN THE PAST. This suggests that there was some sort of battle between them and Orochimaru was defeated and ran away.





Here's how it's going to play out.

Itachi knows that Orochimaru is going to do and thinking > Itachi creates 3 Kagebunshin > They all place Edo Hashi, Tobirama, Manda in genjutsu while Itachi wrecks Orochimaru with Tsukuyomi. > He then seals them with Tosuka one by one while they're all under the effects of genjutsu.

You call us "fanboys" and wank Itachi, and you're doing the exact same thing for Orochimaru and what's worse is you actually try to start insulting fanboys and downplaying a character just to make your statements sound justified.


Honestly, you sound so bitter and sad. I am actually starting to feel sorry for you.

"NO ONE'S ALLOWED TO IGNORE ME!!!! YOU CAN'T DO THAT IT'S NOT FAIR. MY WORDS ARE RIGHT, MY OPINION IS THE ONLY TRUTH".

That sounds like someone with issues

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2016)

1) range and partner method are good counters . Correct 

However partner method works only if manda is caught in genjutsu and orochimaru breaks it out . Manda can't break orochimaru out of genjutsu 

As for range is the implication that orochimaru or manda would never fight at close range ? If you want to claim its solely in close range he can use genjutsu . Despite him clearly showing his crow clones themselves who can move away from him can cast genjutsu 

Just want to get this bit . No need for long essay 

This is fundamental 

I do wonder though doesn't any part of u feel odd that not a sole agrees with your premise ?

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Think of it like this. Gaara uses his sand to grind up minerals within the ground and reinforce them with chakra and thus, can manipulate sand from very large distances. If he's capable of manipulating sand from a very far distance, then obviously he can reinforce sand with his chakra from a significantly large distance. Same thing applies here. If he can maintain a connection between his opponent through genjutsu from a significantly large distance, then logically, he can establish Sharingan-genjutsu from a very large distance as well since both are being manipulated by chakra. Only thing that restricts him from doing so is because eye-contact is much easier to accomplish at shorter range, but that doesn't mean it can't be accomplished at farther range.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm essentially saying that he uses his sand to grind up all of the minerals within the ground to create more sand and then reinforces them and manipulates them with chakra. If he can manipulate sand from very large distances (as shown in the manga), then he's obviously capable of reinforce his sand with chakra from a very large distance as well because that's literally something that precedes the manipulation of his sand. As for the bold, if he can manipulate sand from large distances which has been shown in the manga, then it's because he's capable of spreading his chakra over a large distance because everything in the manga is manipulated through usage of chakra. This isn't an unusual concept at all. We've witnessed how ninja can manipulate water for ninjutsu or how ninjas such as Onoki can cause the ground to rise just by using chakra.


 The problem with your Gaara reference and the whole "Long Range Sharingan Genjutsu thing" is that #1 Gaaras Jutsu involves solid tangible manipulation. Yea he can wrap his chakra around some sand. But for a Sharingan Genjutsu to work the victim has to make direct eye contact with the caster so what are you implying? It's not an argument whether chakra can be manipulated from a distance the point is chakra or no chakra what is Itachi going to do? Send his chakra infused stare through chakra infused oxygen 50 meters away into someone's eyeballs? That makes perfect sense Im gonna turn around and face a wall, by your logic Itachi should be able to cast a Genjutsu on me without me even having to turn around. Genjutsu is initiated with eye contact from the caster, I cannot even see my fucking teachers eyes from the back of the classroom. Are you saying Itachi is going to chakra infuse the air and send his stare?? I don't doubt Itachi can maintain Genjutsu from a SUPER long distance but he'd have to get him in a Genjutsu first. I bet he can get a guy in a Genjutsu and keep that Genjutsu going from 1,000 miles away but I don't think he can initiate from that distance or any distance for that matter where the victim is not in sight.

I would put the #2 but i didn't have one.



> No it doesn't because Naruto isn't really connected with the clones after they're created. He doesn't manipulate them with chakra in anyway at all, they're just left to their own devices unlike Genjutsu or Sand that constantly requires a connection through chakra.


Good point, like I said I'm not too good with examples.



> Ao knew Shisui and he's battled him before yet he stated the only one who could manipulate shinobi with Genjutsu even outside of a sensor's range was Itachi. Shisui has KotoAmatsukami that can be applied at any distance yet only Itachi could accomplish this feat. That suggests that maintaining a genjutsu connection from a large distance is harder than establishing it from a larger distance, so it makes sense that if Itachi can maintain a genjutsu connection from a far distance that he can also establish one from a large distance as well.


 Show me the scans please. I feel like I know what you're talking about but I'd need to see the scans, I couldn't find them.



> If he's inferior to Itachi in terms of Genjutsu yet he's also used it from a farther distance, then why can't Itachi because he's literally better in every single way? I don't get it. It's like saying that if Madara = Hashirama in speed, and Madara can blitz SM Naruto, then that doesn't mean Hashirama can also blitz SM Naruto even though they're equal. Makes no sense. Obviously we can carry over someone else's feats for another individual if we have a reason to do so. That's an example of Chakra Potency and the bold was a feat performed by a Juubi Jin with Kaguya's Power. That's exactly what I'm saying and the context of Sasuke's statement was referring to skill. An expert with a stone can beat a Novice with a Shuriken based on how each weapon is used, so Itachi who's the expert can still be superior to Madara who's the Novice because of how he employs his Genjutsu. Madara has the stronger tool, but Itachi's better in using it when it comes to Genjutsu. The only thing we've never really seen with Madara were his MS Powers, but we've witnessed his usage of Genjutsu and it was rather straight-forward. He doesn't have any statements that commend him for his Genjutsu prowess the way Itachi does.


Yea, you got me there.



> You're missing the point. That example shows that Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about scaling at all.


This doesn't apply to Manda though. Mandas size/power/feats don't change ever. Gammabunta & Katsuyu do. If I was arguing about a summon that's had inconsistent size, like Gamabunta & Katsuyu, that would apply. Manda has always been consistent you can't just group every summon together when talking about size inconsistency, that's biased. Especially when considering the inconsistency that you speak of is fixed later in the manga.



> We can't compare head sizes of Manda/Hydra in comparison to Orochimaru because that's literally suggesting that Manda is easily larger than RSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar being Naruto's size relative to his Avatar's head is significantly lower. Kishimoto didn't care about scaling in that sort of way, so using this logic is obviously flawed.


Manda is the worlds largest snake it wouldn't be that much of a stretch if he were larger than Kurama, who's just a little larger than Gammabunta, who Manda is larger than. I understand Kishimoto wasn't depicting the size of summons by comparing it to their summoner but the fact that the comparison stays consistent makes the comparison valid whether it was Kishi's intention does not make a difference when comparing the size.



> Manda has only been shown twice, so it's anyone's guess how large he's remained, but considering everything in Part 2 were suddenly scaled back significantly, there's really no logical reason why Manda wasn't. It'd be incredibly biased and intellectually dishonest of you if you think Manda is dozens of times larger than Gamabunta because Manda wasn't shown to have grown smaller in Part 2 whereas Gamabunta was.



Manda was summoned in part 2.
One arc before the pain invasion.

So it's biased to think Mandas size never changed because we never saw it change.
But
It's not biased to think it changed because a different summon changed?

We aren't discussing manga. If Manda were summoned during the pain arc, maybe his size would have been downplayed. He wasn't though. His size never changed. It was always consistent. When discussing a battledome scenario, we can't make assumptions that large. We have to go by what we've seen in the manga.



> No, Sakura certainly summoned the same Katsuyu because Minato and Hiruzen were reminded of the Three-Way-Kuchiyose-Deadlock as it were in the past with each of the Summons shown being relatively the same size.


Hold on one moment..

If Minato & Hiruzen were reminded of the three way dead lock because of the size of the summons, wouldn't that be.. Incredibly stupid?

Did you consider, maybe they were feeling nostalgic because it's a toad, snake & katsuyu.  They say nothing about the size. Nobody is saying "wow look at that size! that's the three way dead lock for you."

so to think Sakura summoned the same Katsuyu from the pain arc is biased. Katsuyu can always be a different size. Gamabuntas size has changed once. Gamakichi is comparable to part 1 Gamabunta except he's slightly smaller. Aoda is comparable to Manda but is also slightly smaller.
Part 1 Summons >= War Arc Summons in size.



> For the most part, Katsuyu's size has always remained consistent.


There is no way of knowing that since only a small percentage of her real body is ever summoned. It isn't always specified. So no it's literally, never consistent.



> Gamabunta was the size of the building where the Hokages reside in:Link removed
> And later we see that's the case with Katsuyu:
> Link removed



That's from the arc where size was the most inconsistent my friend.



> So yes, Katsuyu's size has remained consistent, so if Katsuyu is the size of Gamakichi and Aoda, then Gamakichi and Aoda are also the same size as Gamabunta and Manda which aligns perfectly to Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto reminding Minato and Hiruzen of the Three-Way-Kuchiyose-Deadlock.


 Katsuyu size changes has be explained. Gammabunta size changes has been explained.



> That contradicts your whole argument on Aoda being smaller than Manda, so if they're the same size, then P2 Scaling also applies to Manda correct? And since Aoda's head is smaller than Manda's, we cannot make a comparison between Manda and Aoda's heads to justify why Manda is larger than Aoda or Hydra for that matter.


 Aoda is smaller than Manda. That's fact. We can draw from Manga and DB to figure that out. We know Aoda is larger than Hydra because Susanoo fits on Aodas head like a crown. Hydra is just a bit larger than Susanoo. Manda is larger than Aoda, you can use this to figure out Manda > Hydra in size.
Hydras feats: Move Forward, Bite Nothing, Get Sealed. Now don't get me wrong, these are impressive feats. Mandas feats are a bit more glamorous though.

Manda Feats: Fought with Gamabunta, Katsuyu, Jiraiya & Tsunade. He has blindside attacks. Considerable speed. Ability to shed his skin and burrow underground. A bite wide enough to swallow Gammabunta. Survived a giant sword through the head.

The main reason I'm concerned with changing Mandas size is, we don't even know what size to make him. His feats no longer apply since size had almost everything to do with it. If Manda is suddenly smaller than Hydra who is a bit larger than Susanoo, Mandas feats would make zero sense. Unless you can draw me a new Manda, I'll stick to the Manda we've seen in the manga, in part 1 & 2.

@IzayaOrihara:


> The Databook said it boasts a larger frame. Yes, it is 8 snakes opposed to 1, but still it is much smaller. The DB also said Manda is the largest snake in the world, and you say Yamata is his best technique, but Manda is a summon, not a technique. Susanoo is EMS Madara's greatest technique. Does that mean V2 Susanoo is stronger than 100% Kyuubi, his summon? And later in the manga it was stated ET was the greatest technique in the world, and Manga > Databook.





> Oh and by the way, since you think Yamata is stronger, can Yamata
> - dodge and disable Katsuyu in a single panel
> - hide underground and sneak attack
> - open its jaws wide enough to swallow a bijuu sized toad?
> ...





> Not only can Itachi not do so at such a range, but while Manda's eyes are big, Itachi's are not the same size, so dont apply human logic to a snake whose eyeball is bigger than a human being - Itachi might be able to see Manda's eyes but its not mutual though is it? Not really.





> And are they getting from the ground to Manda's eyes before he can do anything? No. Just remember how tall these snakes were. Link removed
> Tsunade is not slow nor is Manda. Thats just your misogyny/underrating.
> Gamabunta held Manda's tail down, and then Tsunade came down on his head. So no, he was not "outpaced".





> Concession accepted. If Byakugou and Sage Mode are considered the pinnacle of Tsunade and Jiraiya's abilities against every opponent, then there's no reason the same wouldn't apply to Hydra.



Okay, you misunderstood me. Hydra isn't his strongest technique when facing Itachi since Susanoo can hard counter Hydra. Orochimaru obviously wouldn't use Hydra since Susanoo will handle it low difficuly. Orochimarus "strongest technique" is useless in front of Itachi. If you had the eight gate of death and your opponent could absorb the power and use it against you, and you knew this, would you use the eight gate of death?



> No, you're justifying a Databook statement through a fallacy where something is false because it hasn't been proven true. In your case, you're argument relies on a Databook statement through the fallacy where Itachi cannot use Sharingan Genjutsu from a far distance because it hasn't been proven true in the manga.


 You're going by: Itachi could use long range Sharingan Genjutsu. He might be able to pull it off at long ranges because it's almost been done by Sasuke & his Genjutsu is weaker than Itachis so logically Itachi should be able to make eye contact with people who are far away. You also have something about Ao & Shisui but I need the scans of him saying the things you said. Finally you want to change Mandas size. Go ahead.



> Fair point on the Edo Tensei, but some of these such as Manda countering Sharingan Genjutsu and Manda avoiding Genjutsu hundreds of feet in the air. I already addressed why he can't.


 Because Sasuke can use Sharingan Genjutsu at a borderline mid-range. Because Manda got smaller. Because Sasuke used Genjutsu on Manda once. I've already addressed all these.



> Burrowing underground is a viable thing Manda can do, but not in front of the Sharingan.


 Elaborate.
Is the Sharingan going to turn the ground to steel so he can't burrow lol?



> Actually, not always and that would make it harder to initiate eye contact if Sasuke was on top of Manda's head which even then, that's still above what would be considered close-range. Not really, no.






> Not really, no. Izaya may have, but his reasoning is very flawed, so I disagree with it.


 The quotes about Itachi are all crap. As i said earlier in this thread: 





> The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.)
> 
> Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect.
> 
> ...


the quotes have no effect on the battle scenario.



> What we're arguing here isn't even related to this battle scenario where War Arc Orochimaru could win due to Edo Tensei, but that's obviously not even what we're arguing here.


 In me & IzayaOrihara case it's Prime Orochimaru vs Itachi. This thread was made with different stipulations, in this thread ET 4 Hokage are allowed. Which just destroys Itachi.

If you don't know what we're arguing, you've obviously read none of our posts.



> Really? You didn't learn that Orochimaru's abilities are useless in front of the eyes of a Skilled Uchiha? Why do you think that situation was compared to a Healthy Orochimaru vs. Itachi, where Orochimaru's jutsu were useless in front of Orochimaru? It's making it clear that a Skilled Sharingan could counter Orochimaru.


 You lost me lol. What situation was compared to a Healthy Orochimaru vs Itachi?
Also no. Those skilled Uchiha are overrated. Well.. not the sauce, after all he was Orochimarus student.



> That's not a very nice way to display your feelings then. Almost made me cry. Almost though.


lol okay, next time I'll just ignore it.



> If you're arguing that Orochimaru was attempting to snatch his body, don't, because he was obviously trying to kill him as there was no point in taking Itachi's body at that point.


 No, I'm saying Hydra vs Susanoo was the closest thing they ever had to a fight since he wasn't trying to snatch Itachis body whereas his other "fights" we're nothing more than an attempt to take his body.



> Yet you're trying to justify why Itachi beating Orochimaru's strongest technique doesn't imply that Itachi can beat Orochimaru because he has Manda.



Manda is the better choice. He has better feats, size & applicability. Like I said if you don't like Manda, let's just restrict him. After all, Aoda is always available.



> Argumentum ad Ignorantum and you're being intellectually dishonest if he can't even use Sasuke's feats. Quit referring to the battle scenario, that's not even what we were discussing.


 Itachi, with the ability to somehow make eye contact with Manda can still be beaten. Genjutsu can be broken partner method. Not to mention Manda can close his eyes. I love how people ignore this, as if closing your eyes is an impossible feat. Manda is summoned, warned, burrowed, ready to attack. While underground ET can be prepped. Itachi can.. oh wait let me guess, none of this will happen because Genjutsu first right? Well Genjutsu can be broken with partner method.

We aren't discussing the battle scenario? What are we discussing?

Discussion has included:
- Mandas Size and how it's compared to Hydra.
- Itachis Genjutsu won't reach Manda because Manda has four counters.
- We aren't discussing a battle scenario.



> 1. So basically, Orochimaru can counter Shuriken/Katon when faster ninja couldn't.


Faster? like who?
Katon is easily countered by Tobirama, Hashirama, any Snake Summon. You want scans?



> 2. If Genjutsu could be countered, then why did he engage in "Genjutsu Range" and continue getting demolished by it twice? There's absolutely no basis for what you're saying. All jutsu is useless in front of the Sharingan was proven true when Orochimaru got spanked twice because of it.


 His first "fight" was nothing more than a body snatching gone wrong.

Sasuke started the fight with Orochimaru. They were in a tiny room. He can't really avoid Genjutsu range the way he can with Itachi. He also couldn't hurt Sasuke. It's a serious stipulation.
Especially when considering he has: no access to his Jutsu and a failing body that's in immense pain constantly. These weren't neutral battle scenarios like the ones that are presented on the Battledome.



> 3. That depends. Sasuke could only manage it because Itachi lacked killer intent and the fact that Sasuke defended himself with his wings.


 Orochimaru can use Oral rebirth multiple times and a lot more efficiently than Sasuke. Even with lack of killer intent the flames of Amaterasu are supposed to be the motherfucking shit but they've done close to nothing. Karin was burning in Amaterasu long enough to write a book about it.



> 4. Oral Rebirth can't counter psychological damage.


 If it's purely psychological, Tsunade would have used therapy not medical ninjutsu.  If her medical ninjutsu can heal psychological problems, Oral Rebirth, the ability that's capable of regeneration, should heal it for the most part. Especially considering, while in a failing body with no arms and without oral rebirth he's taken attacks that would normally kill almost anybody.

I don't see what psychological damage will do to someone who's died.. more than once. I don't see what's stopping him from using toxins to poison Itachi. After all: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



The *Power of the White Snake* (白蛇の力, _Shirohebi no Chikara_) is a general term for 's ability to heal any injuries and to turn into a giant white snake. This enables him to utilise on a victim when the time is right. The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the  of , by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode. Aside from increased regeneration, Orochimaru can also  with should it be bisected, or if the injuries are too severe to heal, he can shed his skin to , free from all damage.


 Just like Yata can block absolutely anything, Orochimaru can heal from absolutely any damage and that includes Tsukyomi.



> 5. No, they do not counter Susano'o.


 Hashiramas wood style can keep him moving and should also be able to remove him from Susanoo. Tobirama can launch Suiton at Susanoos back, which as we've seen with Danzo vs Sasuke, is vulnerable. Orochimaru can attack using the blade of Kusanagi which should be able to pierce through Susanoos back, and can also be used in an underground attack. So Susanoo defense is dealt with rather easily.

Oh I forgot to mention the reason they will all have an opening is because Itachi will be busy sealing Manda or Aoda which leaves him defenseless.



> 6. Not really, no. Summons aren't that fast for higher level ninja. Why do you think Pain evaded 3 Boss Toads with ease?


 Because, nerfed sized, his own summons and Shinra Tensei.



> No I haven't and you can stop trying to substantiate your arguments by trying to make it seem as if I'm literally discussing about Manda or downplaying him this entire time. I'm arguing exactly what's straight from the manga and Kishimoto's words and it's being intellectually dishonest of you to think that your subjective view of Manda is more credible than Kishimoto's own words.


 Kishimotos own words? Okay, let's analyze his thoughts on Manda shall we?
1. Hydra > Manda.
Hydra is Orochimarus ultimate/strongest technique. Hydra boasts a larger frame than Manda. Summoning Jutsu isn't considered a technique otherwise ET would be his ultimate technique. Or Kurama would be considered Madaras ultimate technique. It's not though. So Hydra may be Orochimarus strongest technique but it's a shitty technique when facing Itachi. So kishimotos words.. valid.

2. Hydra is larger than Manda.
The DB says it boasts a larger frame, which makes sense if you consider the fact is eight snakes. If you consider height though, Manda is a hundered times larger than Hydra. I'm not going to waste my time posting scans because I honestly feel like they're just ignored. So Kishimotos words.. Not Valid. The funny part is, those probably weren't even Kishimotos words & his art is completely countered by that statement. So the artists DB or his Manga.. it's up to you which is correct.



> But still, you're sticking with the same contradictory logic by pinning it on me that there is no solid proof that Itachi's Genjutsu can beat Orochimaru when the same applies to Orochimaru's counters against Itachi. Burden of proof is on you to prove that Orochimaru being able to counter Itachi's abilities aligns perfectly to the manga.


 Okay.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Parallaxis (Jun 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Susano covers the fucking bottom. Go look it up.  50% of your argument has just gone to shit.
> 
> The 2 weak edo tensei's gets man handled by Itachi's kagebunshin. Itachi's kagebunshin has been shown able to cast genjutsu on Naruto without him even realising and Naruto wasn't even looking at his eyes. Itachi's clones will undoubtedly place the 2 weak edo's of Hashirama and Tobirama in a genjutsu easily. Orochimaru isn't "breaking anyone out of genjutsu" because Itachi will be the one on his ass pressuring him, NOT the other way around.
> 
> ...


Exactly, I was thinking if an old and decrepit Hiruzen could defeat the edos with shadow clone + sealing, I see no reason why a healthy Itachi can't. black zetsu said that using the Tosuka sword and yata mirror simultaneously made Itachi nearly invicible.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 21, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Susano covers the fucking bottom. Go look it up.  50% of your argument has just gone to shit.


 Where is it protecting him from an underground attack? We've seen multiple times, the bottom of Susanoo is vulnerable. So congratulations 50% of your argument has just gone to shit.



> The 2 weak edo tensei's gets man handled by Itachi's kagebunshin. Itachi's kagebunshin has been shown able to cast genjutsu on Naruto without him even realising and Naruto wasn't even looking at his eyes. Itachi's clones will undoubtedly place the 2 weak edo's of Hashirama and Tobirama in a genjutsu easily. Orochimaru isn't "breaking anyone out of genjutsu" because Itachi will be the one on his ass pressuring him, NOT the other way around.



Ephemeral is easily broken with partner method. Inserting chakra into an ET takes little to no effort. Also not to mention, their attacks could easily disable Itachis Kage Bunshin. Tobirama can counter any katon Itachi dishes out with Suiton.
Hashirama uses:  which should disable Itachis Kage Bunshin.

As ET Tobirama & Hashirama take on Itachis shadow clones, the real Itachi will be facing Orochimaru who's got more than enough defense & offense.

By the way:

It'd be smarter to use Manda or Aoda so he can get a safe distance (underground). From there he has several ways to attack. Underground attack with Kusanagi, which is possibly sidestepped but as soon as it is, Mandas tail comes up which either pierces Itachis body or is somehow dodged, which gives Manda a chance to come up with a Bijuu sized bite.



> Itachi's Tosuka sword stabs Manda EASILY due to its huge size. It cannot even be debated when a rusty/slow Tsunade was able to intercept and pierce Manda with a huge ass sword. Itachi's Tosuka sword has already been shown to be too fast for Orochimaru to even notice. It wasn't because Orochimaru couldn't move but because he wasn't able to react at all.



That's great! Totsuka stabs Manda. Now two things can happen:
A. Manda gets a few scratches here and there and proceeds with his attack.

B. Itachi starts to seal Manda (which is quite the feat) which leaves him defenseless and open for attacks.

Also he reacted to Totsuka but didn't care because he didn't expect it to seal him. A regular stab through the body won't kill the likes of Orochimaru.



> Oral rebirth cannot reverse Tsukuyomi. That's absolutely bullshit.


 Read before replying.
Without Oral Rebirth, in a failing body, with zero arms.. He was able to take attacks that would kill almost anybody.  With Oral Rebirth he's used it while technically dead. Worst case scenario shirohebi form with toxins can heal any damage. Tsukyomi lacks the necessary feats.

If pt1 Kakashi with one Sharingan can stay on his knee, and even maintain enough chakra to stand on water.. I really see no reason why Oral Rebirth & Shirohebi form can't heal enough of the damage.



> Orochimaru has NEVER shown to be able to fight completely long range. ALL of his fights have been CQC, against Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Itachi, Sasuke, Itachi, Tsunade, Yamamoto. Literally ALL of his fights. There's NOTHING suggest that Orochimaru can suddenly fight effectively at long range and Itachi cannot do anything about it.



Okay so..
Extended Kusanagi.
Edo Tensei Tobirama & Hashirama.
Snake Summons.
Mandara no Jin.
Are what now? They can't effectively keep Orochimaru out of CQC? In the event he's in CQC Oral Rebirth saves him like no other Jutsu could. So yes long-range fighting.



> Orochimaru is NOT outsmarting Itachi in anyway whatsoever. Itachi managed to intercept Kabuto's movements and countered him based on his ability to READ HEARTS/MINDS. Itachi can predict and counter anything Orochimaru throws at him. Once again, Edo tensei's are non-factor against Itachi's crow clones because they can easily put them into a genjutsu. Additionally, there's NOTHING to suggest that the Mindless Edo tensei's are capable of "helping" Orochimaru using the partner method on anyone because they are not capable of thinking, only of killing once the command has been given. Orochimaru won't be able to give any new command once he's in a genjutsu.



Once again, Genjutsu is easily broken from any distance. Inserting chakra into an ET takes little to no effort. So Genjutsu is a non-factor. If Orochimaru is in a Genjutsu ET can break him out or distract Itachi long enough for Orochimaru to break himself out. Even if Orochimaru died the ET would not be broken. So no Orochimaru isn't giving constant killing commands. If he were giving constant killing commands they could close their eyes and attack with zero fear of Genjutsu. So it's your pick.



> Itachi's reflexes FAR exceeds anything that Orochimaru, Manda, Edo Hashi/Tobirama can dish out so he can dance around them and pick them off one by one if need be.


 Lol scans of these "reflexes" please.

ET Itachi who's basically immortal and has unrestricted use of MS, was barley keeping up with Kabuto who was only trying to capture the Uchiha. He was barley keeping up and had EMS Sasuke as backup. His reflexes in that fight were okay but nothing that suggests he can "dance around Orochimaru, Tobirama, Hashirama & Manda.".



> I actually laughed when you said that Manda will stick his tail under the ground and hit itachi from under his Susano..... Can I have some feats of him doing that?


 He used his tail to blindside Gamabunta. This could easily be applied against Itachi. Especially considering his tails is as large as Gamabunta.



> And why can't I easily say that Sharingan can see through objects (even underground) and he stabs Manda from underground with Tosuka sword?


 When has Sharingan predicted underground attacks like this? Also if he predicts it and tries to cut the tail, Manda can come up with his Bijuu sized bite which Itachi cannot sidestep.



> I can also say Itachi genjutsu Manda and Manda eats Orochimaru before he has a chance to react. Your only strategy was that Orochimaru stays on top of Manda throughout the fight, but you neglect the fact that Manda gets low-diff easily by genjutsu and Tosuka, so Orochimaru now has no way of "keeping a distance" from Itachi at all and proceeds to get fucked by Tsukuyomi.


 That would work but Manda has four counters to Genjutsu. Orochimaru can warn Manda. Manda will avoid eye contact which should be easy for him.
Orochimaru can use partner method.. If he constantly emits chakra, any Genjutsu landed will be immediately broken.
Manda is too far in the air or below ground for Itachi to make eye contact.
Manda can close his eyes. I know that may seem too difficult, but there's nothing stopping this.



> Manda's so called "speed" gets intercepted by Itachi's vastly superior reflexes and sharingan...not even debatable.


 ...?
He isn't facing off with a human. This isn't a Taijutsu competition. Itachis "vastly superior reflexes and Sharingan" wouldn't save him from Gamabunta, Jiraiya, Tsunade & Katsuyu the way Manda saved himself with zero assistance from Orochimaru. Not even debatable.



> Your Portrayal is flawed as fuck. "Kakashi was scared against Orochimaru but he wasn't scared of Itachi" so that means Oro -> Itachi? Well, great... that must mean Orochimaru > Rinnegan Obito, Juubi, Kaguya as well, since Kakashi didn't show any fear towards them.


 He was obviously referring to part 1 Kakashi not Kakashi in general. Get your shit straight before replying. He isn't saying due to portrayal Orochimaru wins. He's explaining why Itachis portrayal was above Orochimarus and why that made no sense.



> Lets face it.....Orochimaru got fucked twice by Itachi. You cannot make excuses for that because Itachi even said he knows about Orochimaru's technique (including the body replacement technique which he said it takes a lot of chakra)
> This means Orochimaru must have used it in their first battle or any other attempts Orochimaru tried to fight against Itachi.


 That was a fight that happened in the manga. Are you lost? We aren't discussing a manga battle here. This is an entirely new scenario. Okay Itachi knows about Oral Rebirth. Now tell us how he uses that information to beat Orochimaru instead of making assumptions.



> Itachi then stated that he recognised "this feeling" meaning Orochimaru's hydra technique WAS USED IN THE PAST. This suggests that there was some sort of battle between them and Orochimaru was defeated and ran away.


 It could mean a ridiculous amount of things. That's just an assumption.
He could've seen Orochimaru use it while he was part of the Akatsuki. He could've seen Orochimaru use it when he was still apart of the leaf village. He could have been told about it by Orochimaru for all we know, but to assume there was a battle between them.. a bit much.



> Here's how it's going to play out.
> 
> Itachi knows that Orochimaru is going to do and thinking > Itachi creates 3 Kagebunshin > They all place Edo Hashi, Tobirama, Manda in genjutsu while Itachi wrecks Orochimaru with Tsukuyomi. > He then seals them with Tosuka one by one while they're all under the effects of genjutsu.



I like your scenario but it has a few flaws. We cannot assume everyone knows what everyone is going to do. Orochimarus techniques leave Itachi no choice. We aren't saying these things will happen to benefit us, we say it because it's the only way to counter these abilities. If Orochimaru used Hydra to attack Itachi, he'd have no choice but to use Susanoo. So we would say: in our scenario, Susanoo would seal Hydra low dif. It's just logic. Not crap like "Kusanagi can cut anything so it cuts Itachi. It cuts Itachi because Orochimaru knows everything Itachi would do." That's just Bullcrap that only Itachi fans will resort too.

Manda is not falling prey to Genjutsu. Closed eyes and avoiding eye contact is more than enough to save him. If by some divine intervention he does land Genjutsu on Manda Partner Method saves him.

Edo Tensei can be broken out of Genjutsu at any point. Those kage bunshin should focus on Orochimaru imo.



> You call us "fanboys" and wank Itachi, and you're doing the exact same thing for Orochimaru and what's worse is you actually try to start insulting fanboys and downplaying a character just to make your statements sound justified. Honestly, you sound so bitter and sad. I am actually starting to feel sorry for you.
> 
> "NO ONE'S ALLOWED TO IGNORE ME!!!! YOU CAN'T DO THAT IT'S NOT FAIR. MY WORDS ARE RIGHT, MY OPINION IS THE ONLY TRUTH".
> 
> That sounds like someone with issues






Icegaze said:


> 1) range and partner method are good counters . Correct


 It is correct but when you say it, I want to disagree lol.



> However partner method works only if manda is caught in genjutsu and orochimaru breaks it out . Manda can't break orochimaru out of genjutsu


 nobody is claiming Manda can break Orochimaru out of Genjutsu. I don't know where you're getting that from.



> As for range is the implication that orochimaru or manda would never fight at close range ? If you want to claim its solely in close range he can use genjutsu . Despite him clearly showing his crow clones themselves who can move away from him can cast genjutsu


 Orochimaru & Manda aren't escaping Genjutsu because they don't fight close range. They are escaping because they have counters to Genjutsu, even the crows.



> Just want to get this bit . No need for long essay
> This is fundamental
> I do wonder though doesn't any part of u feel odd that not a sole agrees with your premise ?


 Honestly I can't with you..

I agree with him so a "sole" agrees with his premise. Say what you will about me, if it makes the truth more comforting.

You've said: "I don't have any reason to believe Itachis Susanoo isn't as large as Bunta & the others." and since then I just ignore your posts. (For the most part)

You are like a social justice warrior. Nothing we say will get through to you and ignoring you will cause ignorance to spread.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2016)

odd how manda size didn't help him against tsunade...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> odd how manda size didn't help him against tsunade...


Odd how you fail to realize Tsunade wasn't fighting Manda 1 v 1. 
Odd how you fail to notice Manda was fighting four opponents with zero assistance. 
Odd how you fail to notice Tsunade isn't your average shinobi. 
Odd how you fail to notice Manda was able to survive being stabbed through the head.

Odd how you use the same lazy arguments over and over.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 21, 2016)

Manda was stabbed in his mouth, not through his brain or some shit.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 21, 2016)

Turrin said:


> DBIII, "Ever since the one day he suffered complete defeat against Itachi's powerful eyes, the body from one of the Uchiha clan became, to Orochimaru, the container of his dreams."
> 
> DBIII, "But even that tenacity crumbled before Itachi's Totsuka no Tsurugi (Sword of Totsuka)."
> 
> ...



The context was that Orochimaru wasn't strong enough to take Itachi's body, not to defeat him.

From the databook: 

"_He cannot win against Sasuke who was born with the genius of the Sharingan._"

The context here, again, is that he couldn't take Sasuke's body. As confirmed by Sasuke himself (and later reaffirmed by Suigetsu) that he wasn't strong enough to beat Orochimaru in a fight under normal conditions.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2016)

> [="VolatileSoul, post: 55735440, member: 228386"]Itachi didn't even exist in chapter one. We knew fuck all about their power in relation to each other because nothing definitive was stated either way and both have egregious amounts of hype.


Itachi was obviously in Kishi's mind since the start, or was Sasuke thinking about killing his brother that did not exist? Yes, he was not SHOWN in chapter one, but he was already planned from the start with Sasuke's story. 

And regardless of hype, Minato was shown to be able to take on higher-level opponents than what itachi was facing, and he even had greater feats. One of which is ending a war. 



> You mean aside from the whole "he was a good guy all along"  and "he never told a single truth" reveals? Cause that seems more than enough reason to question that.


1- Again, being a good or bad guy does not have anything to do with power. 
2- Where was it stated that he never told a single truth?

Those same people who will disregard itachi's statement about Jiraiya will gladly take it when they want to ride his dick. Have you ever seen anyone disregarding his statement about his Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu? 

Do you see people disregarding Kabuto's statement about itachi/Hashirama? Even tho it's canon that he is even more of a liar than itachi? 

3- No, that is not a reason. Itachi's lies had to do with Sasuke, not Jiraiya. 
You can only say that he lied about something when the manga actually mention that or show otherwise. Not
that anything X person does not like is to be considered as a lie.

For example, Obito lied about him not attacking Konoha, and lied about the Rinnegan and his identity.
So, I guess all of what he said about itachi being good all along is also lie, no? 

And we can't take itachi's words for him being good either, because he is a liar. 



> You can add trying to incinerate Sasuke with Amaterasu and ripping his eyes out to that list too, since that was just as convincing. Kishi's plot twist execution was indeed retarded as fuck, but even then there was questionable stuff in hindsight, like Kakashi wondering why Itachi didn't didn't simply kill him.


Ripping Sasuke's eyes off were only a Genjutsu, not real. And he stopped Amatersu (tho he did not know that Sasuke fooled him). Regardless, he at least did something there, where he was not trying to stop his attack against Kurani or Kakashi. Unless you are going to tell me that he knew Gai would come and save Kakashi. lol




> Besides, I don't recall saying he ran for Jiraiya's safety. He clearly achieved his goal or warning Danzo while having the perfect excuse for not capturing the Kyuubi's Jinchuriki, and noped the fuck out.


Irrelevant. the Jiraiya incidents happened AFTER he went to konoha, so how does that goal have anything to
do with Jiraiya and/or Naruto?

He tried to fool Jiraiya with that girl, if Jiraiya did not see through it, tell me what would have happened to Naruto? 

Are r u going to tell me that he actually cared so much about Naruto, and just knew that Sasuke will come in the perfect moment and Naruto will be saved? 




> Kisame outright asked Itachi why it was necessary for him of all people to flee. Did you not remember that? He does have the general idea of their strength as you say, so that that statement alone means he at the very least believed Itachi was his match, if not more.


I did not say itachi would get fodderstompped by Base Jiraiya, now did I? 

I just pointed out how  hilarious it is that people think itachi is beyoned Jiraiya's level. I don't know what have they been reading for the past 17 years or so.  




> How are those comparable examples? Itachi was masquerading as Konoha's enemy, those two were not. It's the same shit as Kabuto making himself look like a run of the mill fodder in the Chunin exams despite being a match for the likes of Kakashi.



I am telling you that is someone is on the same team or not, when they are talking about their power in comparesion it's not them lying. 

Heck, If itachi was trying to hide anything, then what's the point of him going on to say that even the strongest have weaknesses? Wouldn't it have been better for him to shut his mouth at that point? 

Because him taking about Jiraiya's weak point does not imply that he does not want to get involved in a fight with him, now does it? 



> No, for the obvious reason that ET put Orochimaru beyond Jiraiya by the same margin as well.



Good. 

So, the sannin are not created to be EXACTLY equal in everything at every moment.

People foolishly take Oro's battle with Jiraiya from long time ago (Jiraiya was not even using SM nor was he trying to kill Oro to begin with) to prove that itachi would somehow do the same thing with the other Sannin.

I don't know why do they love to fool themselves so much, but just like how Oro being several tiers stronger than itachi now does not mean Jiraiya is several tiers above itachi, Oro being weaker at that point than itachi does not have anything to do with Jiraiya/Tsunade being weaker either.

Heck, Even Tsunade did better than Oro did when she was fighting 5 clones of Asspulldara with V2 Susnoos, and yet itachi's fanboys always try to fool themselves into beliving that she wouldn't stand even a second against itachi who is far weaker than Asspulldara.

Don't you think if Kishi believe in the same nonsense than itachi's fanboys believe about his power, he wouldn't have let Tsunade continue for even half a second against Asspulldara? 


Note:
I brought Tsunade because she is a Sannin as well.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 21, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Where is it protecting him from an underground attack? We've seen multiple times, the bottom of Susanoo is vulnerable. So congratulations 50% of your argument has just gone to shit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh god. I literally showed you a panel that shows Susano covering the bottom, thus, attacking from the bottom won't work. Not sure why you're denying it so hard. Gaara used sand that was already inside Susano under madara's feet. Not the one under his Susano.


You can say that Itachi's genjutsu is "easily broken by a partner method", but you neglect to state the fact that no one on orochimaru's side will have the time to do that because they all have opponents of their own. Additionally, it showed that it took BOTH chiyo AND Sakura, both of whom are undeniably better than Orochimaru at chakra control had to pump chakra into Naruto at the same time in order to break him out of the genjutsu. Oh yeah, show me a panel where it shows Orochimaru pumping chakra strong enough to break them out of Itachi's genjutsi FROM A DISTANCE.

Hiruzen's old/weak shadow clones were able to subdue Hashirama/Tobirama. No reason why a stronger kagebunshin with GENJUTSU will fail to do so even better.

Orochimaru didn't "react" to Tosuka. Show me a panel that he reacted? It seems perfectly obvious that Orochimaru was caught by surprise by a straight forward stab from Tosuka, not that he saw it coming and chose not to dodge.

And again...you and your Oral Rebirth cancelling the effects of Tsukuyomi statement...so much denial. Kakashi had sharingan and a strong will (plus plot armour that Itachi didn't want to kill him), Orochimaru has no sharingan and no plot armour. Now, tell me which one of them will fare better? 






> "That would work but Manda has four counters to Genjutsu. Orochimaru can warn Manda. Manda will avoid eye contact which should be easy for him.
> Orochimaru can use partner method.. If he constantly emits chakra, any Genjutsu landed will be immediately broken.
> Manda is too far in the air or below ground for Itachi to make eye contact.
> Manda can close his eyes. I know that may seem too difficult, but there's nothing stopping this."




Proof? Or are you just spouting nonsense. How does Orochimaru recognise that Manda is under genjutsu and break him out of it before Manda starts attacking Orochimaru?  

Feats of Manda fighting while avoiding eye contact? The FIRST thing he will do when he's summoned is look at his opponent (who he is facing) and he'll be caught in genjutsu immediately.
If Oro constantly emits chakra? wtf?
Manda is not too far in the air or below ground. He always comes up to attack. Jiraiya was dancing around the snake's back whilst fighting Orochimaru easily when he's drugged. No reason a faster, more reflexive and intelligent fighter couldn't do the same. 

Manda close his eyes and fight? Nothing stopping this?   Oh boy....Proof? Or are you just making shit up as you go along.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2016)

@Sapherosth 
Not that I agree with the delusional long winded poster 

However if his arguments sounded like this I think you would have a harder time countering them 

1) manda should be able to put a layer of skin over his eyes to prevent genjutsu the way Kabuto did . I gather manda isn't a sensor however snakes can sense through heat naturally already . 

Does that provide a viable genjutsu defence ?

Note : the same would hold true for orochimaru if not for plot where he decides to get caught in genjutsu or the layer of skin over eyes could be a retcon for all we know 

2) what happens if ET hashirama uses bringer of darkness . Itachi May not be able to break it as is suspect it acts like gengetsu genjutsu one must attack the caster after finding them 

Note : ET hashirama and Tobirama were holding back orochimaru clearly states this

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Sapherosth
> Not that I agree with the delusional long winded poster
> 
> However if his arguments sounded like this I think you would have a harder time countering them
> ...





1. Snake sensing were insufficient, otherwise Kabuto wouldn't even need his SM sensing to help him (the fact that he stated that his sensory ability has increased when he dodged Sasuke's arrow suggests this). Even if it IS logical for snakes to sense without the use of eyesight (they do so generally anyway in the wild since their eyes are), it's entirely different to say that they can fight effectively without it (They don't have feats either). Even by some miracle it does work, Itachi can throw it off by using Amateratsu's heat to completely throw off their senses.

2. Not sure if using bringer of darkness on Itachi will have an effect since the sharingan "sees" through illusions. It would be completely contradictory for the manga to say that a sharingan cannot see through a visual type genjutsu when it has shown able to counter many. Additionally, Itachi has fought whilst blind before and accurately pierced Orochimaru at the speed in which Orochimaru was caught by surprise. I highly doubt that it's going to be a problem here.

Come to think of it, Itachi actually has better feats of fighting with zero eyesight than both Orochimaru and Manda.

ET hashi and Tobirama were holding back.....but what would they do differently here? Neither of those 2 have the capability to get past Susano's defenses nor do they have a defense against Itachi's KB genjutsu. They aren't smart, so unless Orochimaru explicitly controls them himself which leaves him vulnerable, they won't know that they have to avoid eye contact, or even finger for that matter.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Oh god. I literally showed you a panel that shows Susano covering the bottom, thus, attacking from the bottom won't work. Not sure why you're denying it so hard. Gaara used sand that was already inside Susano under madara's feet. Not the one under his Susano.


Sorry buddy but 100% of your argument has just gone to shit.Did you even read the manga? Gaara grabbed his arm and went right fucking through susanoo so... Yea. Not that this reference was relevant anyway. Because even if gaara attacked with sand already in susanoo - that doesn't make susanoo even remotely impenetrable or flawlessly defended. Kusanagi would rip right through there.


> You can say that Itachi's genjutsu is "easily broken by a partner method", but you neglect to state the fact that no one on orochimaru's side will have the time to do that because they all have opponents of their own. Additionally, it showed that it took BOTH chiyo AND Sakura, both of whom are undeniably better than Orochimaru at chakra control had to pump chakra into Naruto at the same time in order to break him out of the genjutsu. Oh yeah, show me a panel where it shows Orochimaru pumping chakra strong enough to break them out of Itachi's genjutsu FROM A DISTANCE.


 Can ET even be put in Genjutsu? The answer is most likely no. Never been shown in the manga. Nothing in the DB. _None_ of the ET Hokage were effected by infinite Tsukyomi the strongest Genjutsu in the Narutoverse. The only example of an ET being put under Genjutsu is Itachi himself funny enough, and it was a sound induced Genjutsu cast by the person who raised him from the dead in the first place. I really don't see how Itachi can put any of the Edo Tensei into Genjutsu or how you can prove it either. In addition to that, even if they were put under Itachis most powerful Genjutsu the Tsukyomi (a step down from the Infinite Tsukyomi) they wouldn't be able to feel any pain at all. So what good would it even do? Doubt they would be immobilized.  Kabuto was able to control Mu from miles away and Orochimaru could restrain Tobirama at that level.





> Hiruzen's old/weak shadow clones were able to subdue Hashirama/Tobirama. No reason why a stronger kagebunshin with GENJUTSU will fail to do so even better.


 Okay, Hiruzen is Hokage because he's weak right? Both of Hiruzens shadow clones used shiki fujin an S-Rank sealing jutsu that rips out the opponents soul. What proof do you have that Itachis kage bunshin are stronger than "old/weak" Hiruzens. What sealing Jutsu can Itachis shadow clones use on the ET? Are we just gonna assume his clones can use Susanoo? I've already addressed the whole Genjutsu thing.





> Orochimaru didn't "react" to Tosuka. Show me a panel that he reacted? It seems perfectly obvious that Orochimaru was caught by surprise by a straight forward stab from Tosuka, not that he saw it coming and chose not to dodge.


Look at that smile lol.





> And again...you and your Oral Rebirth cancelling the effects of Tsukuyomi statement...so much denial. Kakashi had sharingan and a strong will (plus plot armour that Itachi didn't want to kill him), Orochimaru has no sharingan and no plot armour. Now, tell me which one of them will fare better?


Okay. Orochimaru has the ability to heal any damage with Oral Rebirth. He's used the Jutsu while technically dead. It's regeneration similar to Tsunades, if Oral rebirth doesn't save him Shirohebi form can heal any damage.





> Proof? Or are you just spouting nonsense. How does Orochimaru recognise that Manda is under genjutsu and break him out of it before Manda starts attacking Orochimaru?


 I've already gave you Mandas four counters to Sharingan Genjutsu. I'm not going to repeat myself. If you are too dense to comprehend them the first time I send them (or just too lazy/incapable to come up with a decent counter argument don't accuse me of spouting nonsense you're just wasting my time.)





> Feats of Manda fighting while avoiding eye contact? The FIRST thing he will do when he's summoned is look at his opponent (who he is facing) and he'll be caught in genjutsu immediately.


 Just because Nagato has never had to fight while avoiding eye contact doesn't mean he can't. It's easy for any established ninja to apply tactic. I really don't need a feat for this. Come on.





> If Oro constantly emits chakra? wtf?


 Emitting chakra, how is that "what the fuck?" It's perfectly reasonable.





> Manda is not too far in the air or below ground. He always comes up to attack. Jiraiya was dancing around the snake's back whilst fighting Orochimaru easily when he's drugged. No reason a faster, more reflexive and intelligent fighter couldn't do the same.


 What the literal fuck? Did you even read the manga? Youre proving my point right with your fallacious uninformed statements. Thanks for that by the way. Jiraiya was fighting with Orochimaru on the snakes that were sunk by Yomi Numa. He never once got onto Mandas back. I could elaborate more but I'm not going to waste my precious breath until you fucking educate yourself. This is the second point you've gotten wrong with reference to the manga.





> Manda close his eyes and fight? Nothing stopping this? Oh boy....Proof? Or are you just making shit up as you go along.


 As for the Manda thing, this is just way too funny to even touch base on. I know it's hard for your little brain to imagine but yes, Manda can close his eyes.

*THIS JUST IN: *_Snakes can't blink. 

Nawh Manda can still avoid eye contact, my argument still stands._


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## Sapherosth (Jun 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Sorry buddy but 100% of your argument has just gone to shit.Did you even read the manga? Gaara grabbed his arm and went right fucking through susanoo so... Yea. Not that this reference was relevant anyway. Because even if gaara attacked with sand already in susanoo - that doesn't make susanoo even remotely impenetrable or flawlessly defended. Kusanagi would rip right through there.
> Can ET even be put in Genjutsu? The answer is most likely no. Never been shown in the manga. Nothing in the DB. _None_ of the ET Hokage were effected by infinite Tsukyomi the strongest Genjutsu in the Narutoverse. The only example of an ET being put under Genjutsu is Itachi himself funny enough, and it was a sound induced Genjutsu cast by the person who raised him from the dead in the first place. I really don't see how Itachi can put any of the Edo Tensei into Genjutsu or how you can prove it either. In addition to that, even if they were put under Itachis most powerful Genjutsu the Tsukyomi (a step down from the Infinite Tsukyomi) they wouldn't be able to feel any pain at all. So what good would it even do? Doubt they would be immobilized.  Kabuto was able to control Mu from miles away and Orochimaru could restrain Tobirama at that level. Okay, Hiruzen is Hokage because he's weak right? Both of Hiruzens shadow clones used shiki fujin an S-Rank sealing jutsu that rips out the opponents soul. What proof do you have that Itachis kage bunshin are stronger than "old/weak" Hiruzens. What sealing Jutsu can Itachis shadow clones use on the ET? Are we just gonna assume his clones can use Susanoo? I've already addressed the whole Genjutsu thing.Look at that smile lol.Okay. Orochimaru has the ability to heal any damage with Oral Rebirth. He's used the Jutsu while technically dead. It's regeneration similar to Tsunades, if Oral rebirth doesn't save him Shirohebi form can heal any damage. I've already gave you Mandas four counters to Sharingan Genjutsu. I'm not going to repeat myself. If you are too dense to comprehend them the first time I send them (or just too lazy/incapable to come up with a decent counter argument don't accuse me of spouting nonsense you're just wasting my time.) Just because Nagato has never had to fight while avoiding eye contact doesn't mean he can't. It's easy for any established ninja to apply tactic. I really don't need a feat for this. Come on. Emitting chakra, how is that "what the fuck?" It's perfectly reasonable. What the literal fuck? Did you even read the manga? Youre proving my point right with your fallacious uninformed statements. Thanks for that by the way. Jiraiya was fighting with Orochimaru on the snakes that were sunk by Yomi Numa. He never once got onto Mandas back. I could elaborate more but I'm not going to waste my precious breath until you fucking educate yourself. This is the second point you've gotten wrong with reference to the manga. As for the Manda thing, this is just way too funny to even touch base on. I know it's hard for your little brain to imagine but yes, Manda can close his eyes.
> 
> *THIS JUST IN: *_Snakes can't blink.
> ...





Deary me. I post a panel showing Susano covering the bottom, and you still deny it and try and use it as Orochimaru's one and only method against Itachi.

How is Kusanagi going through Susano?





> Can ET even be put in Genjutsu? The answer is most likely no. Never been shown in the manga. Nothing in the DB. _None_ of the ET Hokage were effected by infinite Tsukyomi the strongest Genjutsu in the Narutoverse. The only example of an ET being put under Genjutsu is Itachi himself funny enough, and it was a sound induced Genjutsu cast by the person who raised him from the dead in the first place. I really don't see how Itachi can put any of the Edo Tensei into Genjutsu or how you can prove it either.




Erm....EMS Sasuke used sharingan genjutsu on Itachi. Itachi was affected by sound genjutsu. Itachi was affected by Koto.

That's 3 instances where ET was affected by genjutsu. Infinite Tsukuyomi most likely doesn't work on ET because they're not alive and have no real bodies. The technique was used to create white zetsu's to begin with. That's the only logical explanation I can give to be honest, unless you want to suggest that Sasuke's sharingan genjutsu is stronger than Infinite Tsukuyomi.


(Orochimaru was only able to enforce the ET due to Hashirama's cells)  He has none during his so called "prime" when he fought Hiruzen. He simply used the tags and erased their personalities. EVEN by some chance he can do it, how do you know it's going to break the genjutsu? It took Sakura and Chiyo to break Naruto out of a finger genjutsu, which is weaker than sharingan genjutsu.


You cannot seriously use the whole "Orochimaru wasn't worried, that's why he didn't dodge" argument. He was simply caught by surprise, plain and simple, then he tried to play it off as if it was nothing after getting caught out by surprise. Even his facial expression showed it when he got stabbed. How delusional can you be?


Your so called "counters" doesn't mean anything at all when it is illogical and quite frankly, won't work in a real battle scenario. I've already addressed why your counters won't work. Deny it all you want.



It's actually an absolute joke to say that any of these guys have a chance against sharingan genjutsu, especially Manda when it has been shown time and time again that summons gets fucked over by genjutsu. It's also common sense for them to LOOK AT THEIR OPPONENT when they're first summoned, which is the prime moment when Itachi casts that genjutsu on Manda.

Spare me with your bullshit scenario's where Manda and Orochimaru somehow works together cohesively the moment he's summoned. Manda was threatening to fuckign eat Orochimaru as soon as he's summoned ffs. How the hell is he supposed to be summoned, instantly know he's facing an uchiha, instantly listens to oro and instantly close his eyes and fight effectively without eye sight.

So forgive me for finding your bullshit hard to believe.

You try to give the perfect starting scenario for Orochimaru by saying he'll summon edo tensei, Manda, shitloads of snake.

I'll give Itachi the perfect scenario as well......Itachi uses sharingan, sees Orochimaru summoning Edo tensei > Itachi instantly goes V4 Susano and stab one of the edo's while they're still in the casket and proceeds to burn the other in amateratsu while inside the casket (Hiruzen was able to intercept with a shuriken, lol), rendering them useless. Orochimaru can then try to summon Manda and Itachi sees what Orochimaru is trying to do with his sharingan so he uses V4 Susano and stabs Manda as soon as he's summoned using the cloud of smoke that happens during a summon as diversion which will completely catch Manda by surprise. Now Orochimaru has got nothing left and gets hit by Tsukuyomi.

Oh yeah, Oral Rebirth can't heal the effects of Tsukuyomi. You've got no proof it can, so stop spouting that nonsense.

Sounds good?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 22, 2016)

@Sapherosth
I'll leave my reply by tomorrow. Just a little too busy right now.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 22, 2016)

*Please refrain from cherrypicking single lines out of the entirety of our arguments to make weak substance-less points with the sole intent of dismissing our position without providing any arguments. We put thought and effort into our responses , if you can't do the same it will be assumed you have nothing of merit to say . Thanks.*

*Reply or Concede*

Manda is way larger than Susanoo and has the ability to keep Orochimaru out of Genjutsu range. Even though Itachi can cast a Genjutsu with a crow @Icegaze.
Orochimarus Edo Tensei can break him out of Genjustu via partner method, this is if Genjustu is ever even landed. Also, Orochimaru has the ability to inject chakra into an ET, so Genjustu on an ET would just be a waste. Orochimaru can avoid eye contact by not getting CQC which would be pretty easy. He also has Jutsu that can be used to avoid Itachi completely like Rashoman & LAC. He could LAC into a Rashoman if he wanted but that's just silly, lol.
Once Manda is summoned, he can attack from underground, and if you look at Jiraiya compared to Gammabunta.. Then Mandas mouth compared to Gammabunta.
*Spoiler*: __ 







Now compare Susanoo to Mandas mouth. Itachi can't exactly side step this lol. Also not to mention, Amaterasu is countered with skin shedding and Genjutsu on Manda can be broken since Orochimaru is standing on Mandas head. As for Tsukyomi its possibly tanked with Oral Rebirth as silly as that might sound,

*Spoiler*: __ 







Now you can see Kabuto using a chakra scalpel to basically behead Orochimaru. You even see his eye fade out like it does when someone dies so Orochimarus body was technically dead right here. Yet he was able to use Oral Rebirth to heal completely 100%. He's also taken on:

*Spoiler*: __ 







without oral rebirth in a failing body with no arms. Even inside Itachis "Paralysis Genjutsu" he was able to move is arms. The damage Tsukyomi has shown is nothing compared to these. It's more of a psychological torture which I dont see hurting Orochimaru all that much. Worst case:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Itachi gets poisoned, then killed.
So to sum up:
*Shuriken/Katon*:Tobirama, Hashirama, FOD Snakes, Mandara no Jin, Rashomon, LAC, Oral Rebirth, tanked.
*Genjutsu*: Edo Tensei Partner method, Edo Tensei immunity to Genjutsu, Manda, LAC, no eye contact.
*Amaterasu*: Oral Rebirth, Manda.
*Tsukyomi*: Oral Rebirth, completely avoided.
*Susanoo*: Manda, Edo Tensei, Underground attacks with Kusanagi, Mandara no Jin, Rashoman, Fluids from the great white snake etc. etc. *
Spoiler:  



As for you who are only interested in the unrelated Manga Quotes: 


*
*Spoiler*: __ 



The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.)
Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect.
Literal vs Non literal that is why our quote has value and yours is doo-doo.
but honestly fuck the quotes, I'm just giving you a straight answer. I don't even value the quotes in this argument personally. I stick to theory not manga.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Think of it like this. Gaara uses his sand to grind up minerals within the ground and reinforce them with chakra and thus, can manipulate sand from very large distances. If he's capable of manipulating sand from a very far distance, then obviously he can reinforce sand with his chakra from a significantly large distance. Same thing applies here. If he can maintain a connection between his opponent through genjutsu from a significantly large distance, then logically, he can establish Sharingan-genjutsu from a very large distance as well since both are being manipulated by chakra. Only thing that restricts him from doing so is because eye-contact is much easier to accomplish at shorter range, but that doesn't mean it can't be accomplished at farther range.
> 
> Yeah, I'm essentially saying that he uses his sand to grind up all of the minerals within the ground to create more sand and then reinforces them and manipulates them with chakra. If he can manipulate sand from very large distances (as shown in the manga), then he's obviously capable of reinforce his sand with chakra from a very large distance as well because that's literally something that precedes the manipulation of his sand. As for the bold, if he can manipulate sand from large distances which has been shown in the manga, then it's because he's capable of spreading his chakra over a large distance because everything in the manga is manipulated through usage of chakra. This isn't an unusual concept at all. We've witnessed how ninja can manipulate water for ninjutsu or how ninjas such as Onoki can cause the ground to rise just by using chakra.


 The problem with your Gaara reference and the whole "Long Range Sharingan Genjutsu thing" is that #1 Gaaras Jutsu involves solid tangible manipulation. Yea he can wrap his chakra around some sand. But for a Sharingan Genjutsu to work the victim has to make direct eye contact with the caster so what are you implying? It's not an argument whether chakra can be manipulated from a distance the point is chakra or no chakra what is Itachi going to do? Send his chakra infused stare through chakra infused oxygen 50 meters away into someone's eyeballs? That makes perfect sense Im gonna turn around and face a wall, by your logic Itachi should be able to cast a Genjutsu on me without me even having to turn around. Genjutsu is initiated with eye contact from the caster, I cannot even see my fucking teachers eyes from the back of the classroom. Are you saying Itachi is going to chakra infuse the air and send his stare?? I don't doubt Itachi can maintain Genjutsu from a SUPER long distance but he'd have to get him in a Genjutsu first. I bet he can get a guy in a Genjutsu and keep that Genjutsu going from 1,000 miles away but I don't think he can initiate from that distance or any distance for that matter where the victim is not in sight. I would put the #2 but i didn't have one.



> No it doesn't because Naruto isn't really connected with the clones after they're created. He doesn't manipulate them with chakra in anyway at all, they're just left to their own devices unlike Genjutsu or Sand that constantly requires a connection through chakra.


Good point, like I said I'm not too good with examples.





> Ao knew Shisui and he's battled him before yet he stated the only one who could manipulate shinobi with Genjutsu even outside of a sensor's range was Itachi. Shisui has KotoAmatsukami that can be applied at any distance yet only Itachi could accomplish this feat. That suggests that maintaining a genjutsu connection from a large distance is harder than establishing it from a larger distance, so it makes sense that if Itachi can maintain a genjutsu connection from a far distance that he can also establish one from a large distance as well.


 Show me the scans please. I feel like I know what you're talking about but I'd need to see the scans, I couldn't find them.





> If he's inferior to Itachi in terms of Genjutsu yet he's also used it from a farther distance, then why can't Itachi because he's literally better in every single way? I don't get it. It's like saying that if Madara = Hashirama in speed, and Madara can blitz SM Naruto, then that doesn't mean Hashirama can also blitz SM Naruto even though they're equal. Makes no sense. Obviously we can carry over someone else's feats for another individual if we have a reason to do so. That's an example of Chakra Potency and the bold was a feat performed by a Juubi Jin with Kaguya's Power. That's exactly what I'm saying and the context of Sasuke's statement was referring to skill. An expert with a stone can beat a Novice with a Shuriken based on how each weapon is used, so Itachi who's the expert can still be superior to Madara who's the Novice because of how he employs his Genjutsu. Madara has the stronger tool, but Itachi's better in using it when it comes to Genjutsu. The only thing we've never really seen with Madara were his MS Powers, but we've witnessed his usage of Genjutsu and it was rather straight-forward. He doesn't have any statements that commend him for his Genjutsu prowess the way Itachi does.


Yea, you got me there.





> You're missing the point. That example shows that Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about scaling at all.


This doesn't apply to Manda though. Mandas size/power/feats don't change ever. Gammabunta & Katsuyu do. If I was arguing about a summon that's had inconsistent size, like Gamabunta & Katsuyu, that would apply. Manda has always been consistent you can't just group every summon together when talking about size inconsistency, that's biased. Especially when considering the inconsistency that you speak of is fixed later in the manga.





> We can't compare head sizes of Manda/Hydra in comparison to Orochimaru because that's literally suggesting that Manda is easily larger than RSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar being Naruto's size relative to his Avatar's head is significantly lower. Kishimoto didn't care about scaling in that sort of way, so using this logic is obviously flawed.


Manda is the worlds largest snake it wouldn't be that much of a stretch if he were larger than Kurama, who's just a little larger than Gammabunta, who Manda is larger than. I understand Kishimoto wasn't depicting the size of summons by comparing it to their summoner but the fact that the comparison stays consistent makes the comparison valid whether it was Kishi's intention does not make a difference when comparing the size.





> Manda has only been shown twice, so it's anyone's guess how large he's remained, but considering everything in Part 2 were suddenly scaled back significantly, there's really no logical reason why Manda wasn't. It'd be incredibly biased and intellectually dishonest of you if you think Manda is dozens of times larger than Gamabunta because Manda wasn't shown to have grown smaller in Part 2 whereas Gamabunta was.


Manda was summoned in part 2. One arc before the pain invasion. So it's biased to think Mandas size never changed because we never saw it change.
But
It's not biased to think it changed because a different summon changed?
We aren't discussing manga. If Manda were summoned during the pain arc, maybe his size would have been downplayed. He wasn't though. His size never changed. It was always consistent. When discussing a battledome scenario, we can't make assumptions that large. We have to go by what we've seen in the manga.





> No, Sakura certainly summoned the same Katsuyu because Minato and Hiruzen were reminded of the Three-Way-Kuchiyose-Deadlock as it were in the past with each of the Summons shown being relatively the same size.


Hold on one moment..
If Minato & Hiruzen were reminded of the three way dead lock because of the size of the summons, wouldn't that be.. Incredibly stupid?
Did you consider, maybe they were feeling nostalgic because it's a toad, snake & katsuyu.  They say nothing about the size. Nobody is saying "wow look at that size! that's the three way dead lock for you." so to think Sakura summoned the same Katsuyu from the pain arc is biased. Katsuyu can always be a different size. Gamabuntas size has changed once. Gamakichi is comparable to part 1 Gamabunta except he's slightly smaller. Aoda is comparable to Manda but is also slightly smaller. Part 1 Summons >= War Arc Summons in size.


> For the most part, Katsuyu's size has always remained consistent.


There is no way of knowing that since only a small percentage of her real body is ever summoned. It isn't always specified. So no it's literally, never consistent.


> Gamabunta was the size of the building where the Hokages reside in:Link removed
> And later we see that's the case with Katsuyu:
> Link removed


That's from the arc where size was the most inconsistent my friend.


> So yes, Katsuyu's size has remained consistent, so if Katsuyu is the size of Gamakichi and Aoda, then Gamakichi and Aoda are also the same size as Gamabunta and Manda which aligns perfectly to Sakura, Sasuke, and Naruto reminding Minato and Hiruzen of the Three-Way-Kuchiyose-Deadlock.


 Katsuyu size changes has be explained. Gammabunta size changes has been explained.


> That contradicts your whole argument on Aoda being smaller than Manda, so if they're the same size, then P2 Scaling also applies to Manda correct? And since Aoda's head is smaller than Manda's, we cannot make a comparison between Manda and Aoda's heads to justify why Manda is larger than Aoda or Hydra for that matter.


 Aoda is smaller than Manda. That's fact. We can draw from Manga and DB to figure that out. We know Aoda is larger than Hydra because Susanoo fits on Aodas head like a crown. Hydra is just a bit larger than Susanoo. Manda is larger than Aoda, you can use this to figure out Manda > Hydra in size.
Hydras feats: Move Forward, Bite Nothing, Get Sealed. Now don't get me wrong, these are impressive feats. Mandas feats are a bit more glamorous though. Manda Feats: Fought with Gamabunta, Katsuyu, Jiraiya & Tsunade. He has blindside attacks. Considerable speed. Ability to shed his skin and burrow underground. A bite wide enough to swallow Gammabunta. Survived a giant sword through the head.
The main reason I'm concerned with changing Mandas size is, we don't even know what size to make him. His feats no longer apply since size had almost everything to do with it. If Manda is suddenly smaller than Hydra who is a bit larger than Susanoo, Mandas feats would make zero sense. Unless you can draw me a new Manda, I'll stick to the Manda we've seen in the manga, in part 1 & 2.@IzayaOrihara: 





> The Databook said it boasts a larger frame. Yes, it is 8 snakes opposed to 1, but still it is much smaller. The DB also said Manda is the largest snake in the world, and you say Yamata is his best technique, but Manda is a summon, not a technique. Susanoo is EMS Madara's greatest technique. Does that mean V2 Susanoo is stronger than 100% Kyuubi, his summon? And later in the manga it was stated ET was the greatest technique in the world, and Manga > Databook.





> Oh and by the way, since you think Yamata is stronger, can Yamata
> - dodge and disable Katsuyu in a single panel
> - hide underground and sneak attack
> - open its jaws wide enough to swallow a bijuu sized toad?
> ...





> Not only can Itachi not do so at such a range, but while Manda's eyes are big, Itachi's are not the same size, so dont apply human logic to a snake whose eyeball is bigger than a human being - Itachi might be able to see Manda's eyes but its not mutual though is it? Not really.





> And are they getting from the ground to Manda's eyes before he can do anything? No. Just remember how tall these snakes were. Link removed
> Tsunade is not slow nor is Manda. Thats just your misogyny/underrating.
> Gamabunta held Manda's tail down, and then Tsunade came down on his head. So no, he was not "outpaced".





> Concession accepted. If Byakugou and Sage Mode are considered the pinnacle of Tsunade and Jiraiya's abilities against every opponent, then there's no reason the same wouldn't apply to Hydra.


Okay, you misunderstood me. Hydra isn't his strongest technique when facing Itachi since Susanoo can hard counter Hydra. Orochimaru obviously wouldn't use Hydra since Susanoo will handle it low difficuly. Orochimarus "strongest technique" is useless in front of Itachi. If you had the eight gate of death and your opponent could absorb the power and use it against you, and you knew this, would you use the eight gate of death?





> No, you're justifying a Databook statement through a fallacy where something is false because it hasn't been proven true. In your case, you're argument relies on a Databook statement through the fallacy where Itachi cannot use Sharingan Genjutsu from a far distance because it hasn't been proven true in the manga.


 You're going by: Itachi could use long range Sharingan Genjutsu. He might be able to pull it off at long ranges because it's almost been done by Sasuke & his Genjutsu is weaker than Itachis so logically Itachi should be able to make eye contact with people who are far away. You also have something about Ao & Shisui but I need the scans of him saying the things you said. Finally you want to change Mandas size. Go ahead.





> Fair point on the Edo Tensei, but some of these such as Manda countering Sharingan Genjutsu and Manda avoiding Genjutsu hundreds of feet in the air. I already addressed why he can't.


 Because Sasuke can use Sharingan Genjutsu at a borderline mid-range. Because Manda got smaller. Because Sasuke used Genjutsu on Manda once. I've already addressed all these.





> Burrowing underground is a viable thing Manda can do, but not in front of the Sharingan.


 Elaborate.
Is the Sharingan going to turn the ground to steel so he can't burrow lol?





> Actually, not always and that would make it harder to initiate eye contact if Sasuke was on top of Manda's head which even then, that's still above what would be considered close-range. Not really, no.





> Not really, no. Izaya may have, but his reasoning is very flawed, so I disagree with it.


 The quotes about Itachi are all crap. As i said earlier in this thread:





> The reason we can use our quote and disregard yours is because the context of the quotes are under different pretenses. When Itachi is talking about Jiraiya you can take it at face value because there is no underlying motive or stressful pretense that would warrant him to lie whereas the quotes people use to support Itachi such as "He's invincible" are stated under circumstances that make it obvious they aren't intended to be taken in literal context. Zetsu doesn't mean Itachi is literally invincible, it's called hyperbole (it adds dramatic effect to writing, Itachis quote with Jiraiya doesn't have that effect, you can take it at face value because it was intended to be informative, it wasn't there for any dramatic accessory.) Same with all the Orochimaru quotes about Itachi they are uttered under stressful circumstances and their inclusion adds depth to the story. The Zetsu quote illustrates how strong Totsuka & Yata are and the Orochimaru quotes illustrate the advantage Itachi had over Orochimaru at the time. What does Itachi saying he would lose a fight to Jiraiya add to the story? What does it dramatize in its context? It was also an under the breath mutter, it's casual, it didn't even add drama to the moment. It was just a literal fact. A quote meant to be taken at face value. It's proven in the fact that the plot adheres to this statement because Itachi doesn't fight Jiraiya. Notice how Zetsu & Orochimarus comments don't affect the plot at all they are just there for effect. Literal vs Non literal that is why our quote has value and yours is doo-doo. but honestly fuck the quotes, I'm just giving you a straight answer. I don't even value the quotes in this argument personally. I stick to theory not manga.


the quotes have no effect on the battle scenario 





> What we're arguing here isn't even related to this battle scenario where War Arc Orochimaru could win due to Edo Tensei, but that's obviously not even what we're arguing here.


 In me & IzayaOrihara case it's Prime Orochimaru vs Itachi. This thread was made with different stipulations, in this thread ET 4 Hokage are allowed. Which just destroys Itachi. If you don't know what we're arguing, you've obviously read none of our posts.





> Really? You didn't learn that Orochimaru's abilities are useless in front of the eyes of a Skilled Uchiha? Why do you think that situation was compared to a Healthy Orochimaru vs. Itachi, where Orochimaru's jutsu were useless in front of Orochimaru? It's making it clear that a Skilled Sharingan could counter Orochimaru.


 You lost me lol. What situation was compared to a Healthy Orochimaru vs Itachi?
Also no. Those skilled Uchiha are overrated. Well.. not the sauce, after all he was Orochimarus student.





> That's not a very nice way to display your feelings then. Almost made me cry. Almost though.


lol okay, next time I'll just ignore it.





> If you're arguing that Orochimaru was attempting to snatch his body, don't, because he was obviously trying to kill him as there was no point in taking Itachi's body at that point.


 No, I'm saying Hydra vs Susanoo was the closest thing they ever had to a fight since he wasn't trying to snatch Itachis body whereas his other "fights" we're nothing more than an attempt to take his body.





> Yet you're trying to justify why Itachi beating Orochimaru's strongest technique doesn't imply that Itachi can beat Orochimaru because he has Manda.


Manda is the better choice. He has better feats, size & applicability. Like I said if you don't like Manda, let's just restrict him. After all, Aoda is always available.





> Argumentum ad Ignorantum and you're being intellectually dishonest if he can't even use Sasuke's feats. Quit referring to the battle scenario, that's not even what we were discussing.


 Itachi, with the ability to somehow make eye contact with Manda can still be beaten. Genjutsu can be broken partner method. Not to mention Manda can close his eyes. I love how people ignore this, as if closing your eyes is an impossible feat. Manda is summoned, warned, burrowed, ready to attack. While underground ET can be prepped. Itachi can.. oh wait let me guess, none of this will happen because Genjutsu first right? Well Genjutsu can be broken with partner method.
We aren't discussing the battle scenario? What are we discussing? Discussion has included:
- Mandas Size and how it's compared to Hydra.
- Itachis Genjutsu won't reach Manda because Manda has four counters.
- We aren't discussing a battle scenario. 





> 1. So basically, Orochimaru can counter Shuriken/Katon when faster ninja couldn't.


Faster? like who?
Katon is easily countered by Tobirama, Hashirama, any Snake Summon. You want scans? 





> 2. If Genjutsu could be countered, then why did he engage in "Genjutsu Range" and continue getting demolished by it twice? There's absolutely no basis for what you're saying. All jutsu is useless in front of the Sharingan was proven true when Orochimaru got spanked twice because of it.


 His first "fight" was nothing more than a body snatching gone wrong. Sasuke started the fight with Orochimaru. They were in a tiny room. He can't really avoid Genjutsu range the way he can with Itachi. He also couldn't hurt Sasuke. It's a serious stipulation. Especially when considering he has: no access to his Jutsu and a failing body that's in immense pain constantly. These weren't neutral battle scenarios like the ones that are presented on the Battledome. 





> 3. That depends. Sasuke could only manage it because Itachi lacked killer intent and the fact that Sasuke defended himself with his wings.


 Orochimaru can use Oral rebirth multiple times and a lot more efficiently than Sasuke. Even with lack of killer intent the flames of Amaterasu are supposed to be the motherfucking shit but they've done close to nothing. Karin was burning in Amaterasu long enough to write a book about it. 





> 4. Oral Rebirth can't counter psychological damage.


 If it's purely psychological, Tsunade would have used therapy not medical ninjutsu.  If her medical ninjutsu can heal psychological problems, Oral Rebirth, the ability that's capable of regeneration, should heal it for the most part. Especially considering, while in a failing body with no arms and without oral rebirth he's taken attacks that would normally kill almost anybody. I don't see what psychological damage will do to someone who's died.. more than once. I don't see what's stopping him from using toxins to poison Itachi. After all: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



The *Power of the White Snake* (白蛇の力, _Shirohebi no Chikara_) is a general term for 's ability to heal any injuries and to turn into a giant white snake. This enables him to utilise on a victim when the time is right. The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the  of , by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode. Aside from increased regeneration, Orochimaru can also  with should it be bisected, or if the injuries are too severe to heal, he can shed his skin to , free from all damage.


 Just like Yata can block absolutely anything, Orochimaru can heal from absolutely any damage and that includes Tsukyomi.





> 5. No, they do not counter Susano'o.


 Hashiramas wood style can keep him moving and should also be able to remove him from Susanoo. Tobirama can launch Suiton at Susanoos back, which as we've seen with Danzo vs Sasuke, is vulnerable. Orochimaru can attack using the blade of Kusanagi which should be able to pierce through Susanoos back, and can also be used in an underground attack. So Susanoo defense is dealt with rather easily. Oh I forgot to mention the reason they will all have an opening is because Itachi will be busy sealing Manda or Aoda which leaves him defenseless. 





> 6. Not really, no. Summons aren't that fast for higher level ninja. Why do you think Pain evaded 3 Boss Toads with ease?


 Because, nerfed sized, his own summons and Shinra Tensei.





> No I haven't and you can stop trying to substantiate your arguments by trying to make it seem as if I'm literally discussing about Manda or downplaying him this entire time. I'm arguing exactly what's straight from the manga and Kishimoto's words and it's being intellectually dishonest of you to think that your subjective view of Manda is more credible than Kishimoto's own words.


 Kishimotos own words? Okay, let's analyze his thoughts on Manda shall we?
1. Hydra > Manda.
Hydra is Orochimarus ultimate/strongest technique. Hydra boasts a larger frame than Manda. Summoning Jutsu isn't considered a technique otherwise ET would be his ultimate technique. Or Kurama would be considered Madaras ultimate technique. It's not though. So Hydra may be Orochimarus strongest technique but it's a shitty technique when facing Itachi. So kishimotos words.. valid.
2. Hydra is larger than Manda.
The DB says it boasts a larger frame, which makes sense if you consider the fact is eight snakes. If you consider height though, Manda is a hundered times larger than Hydra. I'm not going to waste my time posting scans because I honestly feel like they're just ignored. So Kishimotos words.. Not Valid. The funny part is, those probably weren't even Kishimotos words & his art is completely countered by that statement. So the artists DB or his Manga.. it's up to you which is correct.


> But still, you're sticking with the same contradictory logic by pinning it on me that there is no solid proof that Itachi's Genjutsu can beat Orochimaru when the same applies to Orochimaru's counters against Itachi. Burden of proof is on you to prove that Orochimaru being able to counter Itachi's abilities aligns perfectly to the manga.


 Okay.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Only if you think KCM Naruto and B's speeds and CQC prowess aren't impressive, which we know is incorrect. And Itachi didn't even use a Kunai or a shuriken which he excels at. Do you have any evidence regaring Samehada's slow speed ?Kirabi actually tried to attack with tentacles later on but he got Genjutsu'd.
> No one was holding back in that encounter. They were just all feeling each other out like most fights start in this manga. But if you have evidence suggesting that they were deliberately holding back, acting slower than usual etc, be my guest and post the scans.


*Itachi Taijutsu Speed Feats are not that impressive.*
Since people will probably use the "he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke" excuse I'll consider Edo Feats as well. Also not to mention of few of his Taijutsu feats against Sasuke are done inside a Genjutsu so eh.
His ET Taijutsu feats are not that impressive anyway:
*Spoiler*: __ 







Naruto hardly attacked, he just stayed on the defensive and *dodged/blocked all of Itachis attacks.* They both could have used chakra limbs / Tentacles to attack. Why Bee uses Samehada and Naruto defends.. I have no idea. As you can see below, in mid-air Naruto uses a chakra limb, that could have easily been applied during his CQC with Itachi.The reason they didn't kill Itachi right there is conversation and clumsiness.. and the fact he can't die as an ET that Kishi planned to free. KB was also reacting fine to Itachi. Even after being caught in a Genjutsu he was still able to counter.
*Spoiler*: __ 






 KB initially used Samehada to attack. He attacked while Itachi was duking it out with KCM Naruto yet Itachi was able to dodge it. Then one on one without Narutos help he was able to dodge Samehada again. KB then caught Itachi with his tentacles. Tentacles quicker than KB welding Samehada that's my logic.
*Itachis CQC skills are not bad. His Sharingan precognition is top-notch (as an ET anyway). Itachis CQC skills and foot speed has been pit against humans only. So to say that Itachi can dodge Orochimaru & Manda because of his performance with KCM Naruto & KB is just false. *



> This is an incorrect assumption :
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Summons may have tremendous size advantage, but they also have a tremendous speed disadvantage.
> Manda will get casually danced around and trolled.


 You literally cherrypicked the most random, irrelevant examples of a summon being slow. Not all summons are slow, whatever though. Despite his size, Manda still has considerable speed and good reflexes:  Even with a speed advantage, what is Itachi going to do exactly?



> Even genin Naruto can almost dodge a dead angle attack coming from a giant snake.
> Link removed
> Link removed


 honestly i don't even know how to respond to this. I just.. don't know where to start. Uhm.

I don't see how this applies, or rather I don't exactly know how to address it. The characters involved are to unrelated to our battle scenario in the sense that 
Itachi > Naruto foot speed while Manda > Twin snakes in power and speed. Also Naruto couldn't dodge anyway. So.. I honestly don't know where to go with this lol.



> Which accomplishes nothing for him, so why would he do that ? He needs to be close to Itachi to be able to hurt him.


 He can: or 
*Spoiler*: __ 






 or summon Edo Tensei.




> Even B got saved by the skin of his teeth and he pretty much has instantaneous defense thanks to his bijuu.
> Link removed


 That doesn't really apply to this fight. 



> Orochimaru can't instantly sense that Manda is controlled by genjutsu up until Manda actually turns on him which will be too late do anything to save him.


 All he has to do is constantly emit chakra. This prevents Manda from getting caught. Not to mention all Orochimaru has to do, is warn Manda not to make eye contact with Itachi. It isn't that difficult.

Boss summon sizes keep getting retconned all the time.
Link removed
Link removed[/quote] Where was Mandas sized "retconned". Did you accidentally post the wrong scan?



> Earlier in the manga they were drawn alot bigger. So Manda should be the same size as Aoda and is stated to be smaller than Yamata, which he should be when you account in Yamata's body as a whole instead of looking at its individual heads.


 DB says Manda is largest snake in the Narutoverse. In the manga he is never once shown being smaller than Aoda. I have no idea where you are getting any of this. I've already addressed the whole Yamata and Manda situation. Look at their length, Manda wrapped around Katsuyu with extra length to go around. 



> Manda's mouth doesn't matter here. What matters is the radious of his neck. It is much much smaller compared to its open mouth as we all know pythons can swallow prey 8 times their size due to their jaw anathomy. And look at the size of Sasuke's arrow in that scan you posted. That should be comparable to the length of the extended Totsuka : Link removed
> Which is long enough to decapitate 2 Aoda sized snakes with a clean swipe to the neck.


 The length of one of Sasukes arrows is about the measure of the diameter of a single Aoda. Manda is likely the thickness of two+ Aoda. 



> Manda gets fucked. *Not that Itachi needs Susano'O to battle it, but if it came down to it, it wouldn't last more than 1 panel.*


 That's good to know, tell me two things.

How does Itachi deal with Manda & Orichimaru without Susanoo? Genjustu lol? 

We're counting on Manda getting taken out, he's the perfect diversion. While Itachi is stuck sealing Manda (which would be quite the feat) Orochimaru uses Edo Tensei to attack the weak points of Susanoo (under&behind).

Orochimaru wins with Manda restricted. Just saying. (Sorry if my response was a little unorganized, I didn't really do too many edits.)


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Itachi Taijutsu Speed Feats are not that impressive.
> Since people will probably use the "he wasn't trying to kill Sasuke" excuse I'll consider Edo Feats as well. Also not to mention of few of his Taijutsu feats against Sasuke are done inside a Genjutsu so eh.
> His ET Taijutsu feats are not that impressive anyway:



Conjecture.



> [/spoiler]Naruto hardly attacked, he just stayed on the defensive and dodged/blocked all of Itachis attacks.
> They both could have used chakra limbs / Tentacles to attack. Why Bee uses Samehada and Naruto defends.. I have no idea. As you can see below, in mid-air Naruto uses a chakra limb, that could have easily been applied during his CQC with Itachi.



I explained this, characters tend to feel each other in the beginning of the battle. Itachi didn't even use a kunai, or any other projectiles. They were just using hand to hand combat, body speed, reflexes and skill and Itachi came out on top. 



> The reason they didn't kill Itachi right there is conversation and clumsiness..


Pure speculation.



> and the fact he can't die as an ET that Kishi planned to free.


There is nothing Naruto or B have in their arsenal that can kill an EDO. And EDO's regenerate from pretty much any kind of physical trauma, so if Kishimoto thought Kirabi or Naruto were superior to Itachi in CQC, then he could easily make them hurt him and then he would regenerate just fine and it would not effect the outcome at all. 



> KB was also reacting fine to Itachi.


He had to be warned twice to be able to react to him.
Itachi was able to get within strike range before even B registered he was there.



> Even after being caught in a Genjutsu he was still able to counter.
> *Spoiler*: __


The genjutsu was instantly dispelled by his Bijuu and even then he barely countered the incoming shuriken. Replace B with someone who doesn't have an instantaneous genjutsu defense and they get shredded.




> KB initially used Samehada to attack. He attacked while Itachi was duking it out with KCM Naruto yet Itachi was able to dodge it. Then one on one without Narutos help he was able to dodge Samehada again. KB then caught Itachi with his tentacles. Tentacles quicker than KB welding Samehada that's my logic.



Tentacles didn't catch shit. The thought he did, inside Itachi's genjutsu. 



> Itachis CQC skills are not bad. His Sharingan precognition is top-notch (as an ET anyway). Itachis CQC skills and foot speed has been pit against humans only.


Itachi dodged a blindsiding B without any aid from his sharingan since he doesn't have eyes in the back of his head.
And he moved a good 5-8 meters before B could recover from his striking :Link removed
As you can see, B is exactly in the same position he was in in the top left panel even after Itachi moves next to Nagato.
That is one of the best agility/mobility feats we've seen in the manga, barring obvious top tiers like Gai, JJ's etc.



> So to say that Itachi can dodge Orochimaru & Manda because of his performance with KCM Naruto & KB is just false.


No it isn't, because both KCM Naruto and B are individually fuckloads faster than Orochimaru and Manda.
So it is a correct assesment.



> You literally cherrypicked the most random, irrelevant examples of a summon being slow. Not all summons are slow, whatever though. Despite his size, Manda still has considerable speed and good reflexes:  Even with a speed advantage, what is Itachi going to do exactly?


Your scan doesn't prove anything. It has nothing to do with what I said either. I'm saying that summons are too slow to tag a shinobi and you are posting summons fighting other summons. You have absolutley nothing to say about the subject.

Also if you think I cherrpicked anything, then be my guest and find me scans of summons being fast enough to be relevant against high tier shinobi.

I'll wait.



> honestly i don't even know how to respond to this. I just.. don't know where to start. Uhm.


Start with the fact that a fucking genin reacting and partially dodging a huge summon attacking him from a dead angle. 



> I don't see how this applies, or rather I don't exactly know how to address it. The characters involved are to unrelated to our battle scenario in the sense that
> Itachi > Naruto foot speed while Manda > Twin snakes in power and speed. Also Naruto couldn't dodge anyway. So.. I honestly don't know where to go with this lol.


It has to do with the fact that size doesn't mean everything, which was your argument. 

Also do you think the difference in power/speed/reflexes/fighting capability between Itachi and Naruto is somewhat equal to the difference between that fodder snake and Manda ? 




> He can: or
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


And Itachi can just dodge it. Link removed



> That doesn't really apply to this fight.


It surely does as you mentioned partner method.



> All he has to do is constantly emit chakra. This prevents Manda from getting caught.


There is no such thing, you just made that up.


> Not to mention all Orochimaru has to do, is warn Manda not to make eye contact with Itachi. It isn't that difficult.


Manda has huge eyes, he isn't avoiding eye contact here. If he does, finger genjutsu or crow genjutsu seals the deal anyways.



> Boss summon sizes keep getting retconned all the time.
> Link removed
> Link removed Where was Mandas sized "retconned". Did you accidentally post the wrong scan?


I posted the correct scan.
Gamabunta was drawn alot smaller in the later portions of the manga, thus Manda would be scaled down accordingly.



> DB says Manda is largest snake in the Narutoverse. In the manga he is never once shown being smaller than Aoda. I have no idea where you are getting any of this. I've already addressed the whole Yamata and Manda situation. Look at their length, Manda wrapped around Katsuyu with extra length to go around.


They were never shown side by side. 
But we know the scaling of Gamabunta and Manda and it would apply to Gamakichi and Aoda. 
You thought you adressed it,  but you didn't. Yamata is stated to be bigger than Manda, end of discussion.




> The length of one of Sasukes arrows is about the measure of the diameter of a single Aoda.


No.




> Manda is likely the thickness of two+ Aoda.


Link removed
No. Going off of Bunta and Gamakichi, Aoda and Manda are roughly the same size.



> That's good to know, tell me two things.
> 
> How does Itachi deal with Manda & Orichimaru without Susanoo? Genjustu lol?


Yes. And just moving around it. Manda is too sluggish to tag someone like Itachi. 



> We're counting on Manda getting taken out, he's the perfect diversion. While Itachi is stuck sealing Manda (which would be quite the feat) Orochimaru uses Edo Tensei to attack the weak points of Susanoo (under&behind).


Manda can't keep Itachi's hands full if Yamata couldn't. And Orochimaru has nothing in his rasenal that can breach even the weak points of Susano'O.



> Orochimaru wins with Manda restricted. Just saying. (Sorry if my response was a little unorganized, I didn't really do too many edits.)



You can give Orochimaru 2 Manda's, it doesn't change the outcome. He gets destroyed, like we've seen and read in the manga more than a couple of times.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> After Tsukuyomi is finished and Orochimaru is kneeling down like Kakashi, that is when he will use Oral Rebirth. If you had any common sense you would know that.]


Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, not regeneration. You have to cast it before the damage is done.



> *Spoiler*: _And yes things you do in Genjutsu affect the real world (because Genjutsu isnt even real in the first place, it is just an illusion)_



No, it doesn't. 
Link removed

You don't know shit about this manga and yet you type 10k word essays. I detect mental illness.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto 
I'll respond to ur long winded post 
When you admit you are wrong about ET being immune to genjutsu as ET have been put in genjutsu several times in the manga

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Parallaxis (Jun 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> ____________________________________________________________________
> *POSTING THIS AGAIN ONE MORE TIME UNTIL SOMEONE COUNTERS
> IF NO ONE DOES, I WILL ACCEPT ALL CONCESSIONS*
> __________________________________________________________________
> ...




k please do - i see that orochimaru could win, i just don't like you being so aggressive against all itachi fans


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Jun 22, 2016)

I second everything that @HandfullofNaruto said.




PhantomSage said:


> k please do - i see that orochimaru could win, i just don't like you being so aggressive against all itachi fans


Do you really mean that? Okay, give me your scenario of how you think this battle will go, step by step from start to finish. Write a short paragraph telling me how you think this battle will go.



PhantomSage said:


> k please do - i see that orochimaru could win, i just don't like you being so aggressive against all itachi fans


In which way have I been aggressive? Tell me how I have been aggressive.

If someone ignores my post, i post again, simple as.. Or is an essay "aggressive"? Well, thats how i debate. Am I the first on NF to ever use an essay? And even if i was aggressive, I have every right
- I say something logical, and Icegaze goes on to say I have mental issues/am a dupe account
- Sapherosth says Prime Orochimaru is a fanfic (despite us seeing him fight Hiruzen in Ch. 120), then goes on to say Susanoo is covered at the bottom as if Itachi has a legged Susanoo like Madara
It's pretty ironic isn't it?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, not regeneration. You have to cast it before the damage is done.
> 
> No, it doesn't.
> breaking pound for pound
> ...


Again, someone saying I have mental illness, you see? I shouldn't have to listen to this rubbish.

@Grimmjowsensei, don't pick the image thats convenient for you

When it zooms in on the next panel, Susanoo appears even smaller

Totsuka is not a threat to manda in terms of the size comparisons.
- Totsuka is big enough to go through a human's chest
- A whole human in terms of height is about the diameter of Manda's eye ball
- So that thing wouldnt even suffice as a toothpick for the King of Snakes



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oral rebirth is a kawarimi, not regeneration. You have to cast it before the damage is done.


Illustrate this with manga panels/databook scans please.

And also, insult me one more time and I will report you, cos frankly, I'm tired of you now.


> No, it doesn't.
> [LINKHL]37007[/LINKHL]
> 
> You don't know shit about this manga and yet you type 10k word essays. I detect mental illness.


I don't type 10k word essays.
I do know shit about the manga.
So then why did Itachi cut off his hand if he wasn't going to "Kai" out of the Genjutsu.

Respond to this without unnecessary insults please.

EDIT: Never mind, there was no DB entry for it, apparently. All we can go by is manga scans and Naruto Wiki, which says:


> *Orochimaru-Style Body Replacement Technique*
> Used primarily *after sustaining* massive *injury* or as a means to elude a seemingly inescapable attack, this technique allows the user to materialise a new body — typically by regurgitating it from their mouth — in a manner that somewhat resembles how a snake sheds its skin. After emerging, the user's clothing and injuries are completely restored, with even amputated limbs being regenerated. Whilst the technique has the additional advantage of potentially being extremely difficult to detect, its use consumes a great amount of chakra. The technique can seemingly be used no matter how serious the injury, as Orochimaru was able to use it to materialise a new body *even after* Kabuto cut his throat open and grievously injured his body.


It counters Tsukuyomi.
After sustaining damage (and after the illusion is finished), Orochimaru spews up a new body with a new brain which is free of the brain damage caused by the illusionary (not physical, but illusionary) torture, which I doubt would even harm Orochimaru (someone who has high pain tolerance). So either he tanks it (as in resists the mental damage via his high pain tolerance which means he wont suffer the same effects as a guy with a normal body like Kakashi) or when the Genjutsu is over, he regenerates using his Kawarimi. In the worst case scenario, if his human body suffers incurable brain damage, that will be to his human brain, and will not affect this brain [1], a separate mental space he created for this body [2], and he will emerge [3] and end up killing Itachi with this [4].




*Spoiler*: _Scan 3_ 



Not that Totsuka is hitting him here, but even if it did, this is a viable counter I just thought of now; while the human host gets sealed, he burrows under the ground, gets to Itachi in Susano'o, and makes it into a paradise full of his neurotoxin






*Spoiler*: _One more thing_ 



And just remember, Itachi needs to get fairly close to use Genjutsu, and whilst having two Edo Zombies to fight, will also have Manda, Aoda etc as a distraction. What is stopping this from happening in all the confusion?
(since he has Edos helping him, he can risk closing his eyes for a short CQC encounter






*Spoiler*: _And considering this, closing his eyes for a few seconds can be easily managed in battle_ 




*Copied from an earlier post:*
().
[sp=Databook 4 - Aoda]Aoda (アオダ)

Kana: アオダ
Databook romanisation: AODA

Village: —
Rank: —

Ninja registration number: —
Birthday: 1st October (? years old, Libra)
Height: ? cm Weight: ? kg Blood type: ?
Personality: Simple

↑ By weavingly making progress through the gaps between waiting enemies, it easily broke through the center of the enemy's lines!!

How [can I serve you? or so], Sasuke-sama

Boldly pushing forward without shaking, serving its master with loyalty, a calm and level-headed great python snake!

A big snake that lives in the Dragon Earth Cave and was summoned by Sasuke. It's endowed with a body and strength that comes close to Manda and Second Manda, as well as an infrared-ray sensing organ. It once saved Sasuke's life and has been loyal to him ever since. [TN: Not sure about this last sentence]

Translated by Seelentau[/sp]



> Manda was very powerful, feared as the "strongest colossal serpent" (最強の蟒蛇,_Saikyō no Uwahebi_) and able to stand his own against  and , having almost killed them both before being disabled. He was extremely fast, as he was quickly able to dodge and disable Katsuyu. It is also obvious that he was well-known, as  was afraid of him just because of his gaze. He was also able to shed his skin in a manner similar to the , which was seen during the battle with Gamabunta and Katsuyu, and to move . His body was sturdy enough to withstand 's , and remain intact, while providing a relatively safe shelter for anyone to hide inside his mouth, although this came at the cost of Manda's life.





> (蛇, _Hebi_), also known as *kyodaija* (巨大蛇, _Literally meaning:_ Giant Snakes), are the signature summons of , his assistant, , and his students: Sasuke Uchiha and . They reside at the .
> The snakes vary greatly in size, body mass and species, from small enough to hide in one's sleeves to larger than buildings, and thin enough to be used to tie someone's hands to strong enough to choke a colossal animal like the . Although common snakes cannot speak human language like , some of their summoners could communicate with them. They are able to detect live beings by their in order to track and lead their summoners to their prey.







> Aoda is a large blue snake with light green eyes and is easily comparable in size to the largest of summons. He towers above trees, buildings, and rock formations, much like  used to. Like *many snakes*, Aoda possesses large  on its snout.







Or maybe even this

Just a side-thought




At the end of the day:



> *Amaterasu* is a  , the highest level ofFire Release.[2] Said to represent the "Material World and Light" (物質界と光, _Busshitsukai to Hikari_), Amaterasu is the antipode toTsukuyomi.


antipode
ˈantɪpəʊd/
_noun_
noun: *antipode*

the direct opposite of something.
"the pole and its antipode"



> *Tsukuyomi* is noted to be one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence.[2] It is said to represent the "Spiritual World and Darkness" (精神界と闇, _Seishinkai to Yami_), the antipode toAmaterasu — a ninjutsu of similar power.


The same data-book you love to cling to so much (no offence lol) states that Tsukuyomi is a jutsu of similar power to Amaterasu, which Sasuke trolled on-panel using a technique from Orochimaru's repertoire.


That's all I have left to say in this thread. And you say I don't know anything and type 10k word essays. Was my whole essay talking about Tsukuyomi and Oral Rebirth? No. That was just an excuse for you to move on in the debate wthout actually reading my arguments. So at this point, there is nothing I can do to convince you. If you don't read my arguments or the manga, what am I supposed to do? Like i said, I haven't got anything else to say in this thread.
*
CONCLUSION:*
At the end of the day: @Grimmjowsensei @UchihaX28 @Icegaze @Sapherosth
Lets just agree to disagree, i'm not trying to insult you or call you fanboys at this point, but it seems none of you can see past your idea of Itachi being an invincible fighter (don't bring that Zetsu scan, just don't), so we can just agree that there are two Itachis in canon. Naruto Forums Itachi and Manga Itachi, and for the sake of peace here, I will allow NF Itachi to be considered canon. NF Itachi > Kaguya > Top Tiers etc etc > HIGH KAGE TIER (High End [Minato/Nagato/Hanzo Prime/Hiruzen Prime] > Middle [Sannin at Full Power] > Low End [Healthy Itachi/Tobirama/Sasori]) and so on. I don't know what more I can say at this point. I will still discuss Itachi in the future, but I have to abort this thread because no one is countering my essays and yet dare to move on and keep saying what they like, so lets just agree to disagree.

If you can't understand this (what I posted in an earlier response):
______________________________________________________________________________
*
Shurikenjutsu/Katon:* _Easily dodged, or intercepted by Edo Tobirama's Suiton (for Katon) and Orochimaru's Fuuton: Daitoppa (for Shuriken) or tanked with fodder snake summons._

*Genjutsu: Sharingan:* _Edos break Orochimaru out, Orochimaru breaks Manda out, not that Itachi will land it on him anyway if he is on top of a tall snake's head, even the fodder ones, let alone San Kyodaija, Aoda or even Manda. Finger Genjutsu was used on Naruto at close proximity, so if its so great, why was it never used on Kabuto or Nagato? I have no reason to assume it will be a K.O. for an opponent in a tier above Itachi himself, and as for crow Genjutsu, the crows have to get close to Manda, and thats not happening, and im laughing at the fanfic that Itachi sets all this up while the Edo Tensei Shodai/Nidaime Hokage Reincarnates stand there and do nothing. And why is Orochimaru not chilling on top of Aoda while he sends Manda out to fight? Along with the Edo Zombies that is!_

*Tsukuyomi:* _Orochimaru avoid it by fighting from underground/on top of Manda, or if he gets hit, can repair the brain damage by spewing up a fresh body free of any damage at all (if he can regenerate lost limbs and survive a "death" using Shirohebi Kawarimi, I see no reason why Tsukuyomi, which was trolled by a Shosen no Jutsu, will do anything in this battle)_

*Amaterasu:* _Orochimaru uses Shirohebi Kawarimi. Manda uses Skin Shedding. Edos have no counter but Itachi has only 2 shots at it so if he wastes it on them, while he's on the floor exhausted, there is a chance to attack him. He one shot at Tsukyuomi wont help him. If he goes for two Tsukuyomis and one Amaterasu? Same difference. Can't do anything here._

*Susanoo/Yata Mirror Defence: *_Completely bypassed here. Manda can use his tail to attack from underground so doesn't even have to but himself at risk of Genjutsu. His tail is big enough to cover up the entire inside of Susanoo, so Itachi is not evading it. Orochimaru can do something similar with the Leech All Creation + Extending Kusanagi combo, and also has Edo Hashirama's Mokuton to bind Itachi like it did Hiruzen, and throw him out of Susanoo for Manda to clap his jaws around, ending the battle._

*Totsuka Sword Offence:* _Manda is Bijuu sized, not Susanoo sized like Yamata, and unlike it, has feats such as high speed levels, the ability to go underground, and has a mouth big enough to swallow a Bijuu sized toad, and also, is not immobile like Yamata/Edo Nagato, so the menial feats Totsuka achieved in the manga are not applicable here, considering the sword is big enough to pierce a human's chest, and an entire human is smaller than Manda's eyeball and front teeth, so Manda sidesteps, as does Orochimaru, and if he wants, he could send Edo Tobirama as a decoy for Totsuka, and in canon, besides the fact even Healthy Itachi is heavily exhausted by MS usage, to the point he turns off Sharingan (as we saw in Part 1 [so how is this Finger Genjutsu/Crow Genjutsu fanfic happening]), Totsuka took 4 manga pages to seal it's target, both times it was used, so in that time-lag, Edo Hashirama will be getting Itachi out of Susanoo. If itachi leaves his Susanoo like he did when he sealed Nagato, then Manda will just kill him more easily. Itahci has shown nothing to suggest he can evade all of Manda's attacks and even then, he isn't dodging Mokuton, as well as the threat of Extending Kusanagi._

*Itachi's Portrayal:* _Lolololol, Orochimaru counters that too. Prime Orochimaru is comparable to Base Minato/Prime Hiruzen and superior to Tobirama/Jiraiya, all of whom are superior to Itachi. All Itachi has going for him here is his portrayal of being stronger than Nerfed Forms of Orochimaru, which I don't see as applicable to this battle scenario, where Orochimaru has full use of his arms, allowing him to use Manda and ET, abilities he never had when he lost to Itachi/claimed inferiority, and in this scenario, is fighting to kill Itachi, not take his body, so will make use of his best abilities to fight.

*Overall Objective View of this Fight:* It was stated Itachi with draw with Jiraiya (whom is inferior to the version of Orochimaru in question here) even with assistance from Kisame and other Akatsuki members/lackeys, and Tsunade went up against a much stronger version of Itachi (5 x Edo Rinnegan/Mokuton using Madara V3 Susanoo Clones) and lived to tell the tale, so now tell me why the strongest Sannin, who is comparable to 3 of Itachi's superiors (Prime Hiruzen/Tobirama Senju/Minato Namikaze - much superior than Itachi in fact) is losing this battle.

*That's Long Range mostly, but what about CQC?:* Orochimaru is primarily a long distance fighter, as in, the snakes are like an extension of him, and go far away to attack opponents, plus mokuton usage and all that. If this battle goes into CQC, as Chiyo stated, if its 2 v 1 (its 3 v 1 in this case, 4 if you include Manda), then take the rear. Edo Hashirama will stand behind Orochimaru and break him out of any Genjutsus he gets put in while Tobirama goes forward just in case Itachi surprises them with Totsuka. If he gets sealed, then Hashirama pulls Itachi out of Susanoo for Orochimaru to kill using Manda, or Orochimaru just goes underground himself and attacks with Extending Kusanagi, in the same way he did to Four-Tailed naruto (*cough*cough* who Itachi himself cannot even defeat  *cough*cough*). Aside that, if this gets into real real close CQC, Orochimaru can go underground to avoid Genjutsu, pop his head out and use a Curse Mark, make use of poisons (like he did on Log in the Mitsuki Side Story Chapter, or use Sōjasōsai no Jutsu) as well as Kusanagi (Ku no Tachi, or the "gunshot"-esque way he used it on Sai) aside Seneijashu (when Kabuto used fodder snakes, Itachi needed V3 Susanoo to block it, and to beat a unch of Susanoo sized snakes, he needed Totsuka, his ultimate offence, so why people think Itachi is beating a Bijuu sized snake, I can never bring myself to understand)_

*Spoiler*: _Summary_ 




*
1. OROCHIMARU > ITACHI (HYPE/PORTRAYAL)*
Section 1

In Part 1, Kakashi Hatake had the confidence to engage Itachi in battle, yet feared Orochimaru so much that he felt he could not fight him, showing that he saw Orochimaru as a more dangerous opponent than Itachi.
Orochimaru, on three separate occasions, has been compared to Minato Namikaze, whom was superior to Itachi.
Orochimaru was stronger than Jiraiya (don't really need to explain this), who was also superior to Itachi, even if only slightly.
Orochimaru was superior to Tobirama Senju, another person who was superior to Itachi.
Section 2

Orochimaru stated he could not acquire Itachi's body
Orochimaru said it again for those who didn't hear the first time when he fought Drugged Jiraiya
Sasuke said Orochimaru could not defeat Itachi
Orochimaru was repelled and injured by Itachi ??? years ago
Orochimaru was sealed at the Uchiha Hideout, but started the "battle" in a disadvantageous starting-point (people can say Itachi was sick, whatever, he had Totsuka out and ready on the go, thats better than Itachi starting healthy and in base, because Totsuka is the best thing in his arsenal)
Do you notice how every time Orochimaru was portrayed below Itachi in Section 2, he either did not have his arms, or was sick, or not at full power, or for any reason, restricted from fighting to his full ability (such as having no killing intent in the exchange ??? years ago when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki), if they were even fighting at all in some of those instances.

Section 3

Hebi Sasuke confirmed that when Orochimaru lost to him, it was because he was weakened, after his fight with Deidara.
EMS Sasuke and Suigetsu re-confirmed that in the war arc, that he only lost because his arms were sealed.
So you can see for yourself, that Shiki Fujin did indeed, nerf Orochimaru (many people have denied this, for what reason, I don't know, maybe to wank Itachi), and Suigetsu implied Prime Orochimaru could have been a threat to EMS Sasuke, and both statements confirm Prime Orochimaru would have defeated Hebi Sasuke in battle.

Orochimaru cannot be stronger than Itachi and weaker than Itachi at the same time, and you can see there was a *consistent trend *of how _when Orochimaru was fully powered, he was above Itachi, and when he had any sort of nerfing, he was below Itachi. _This trend is consistent with no anomalies.

So now, let's solve this inequality/inconsistency:
Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru. Simple as that. Why is it so hard to accept/understand?
*
2. OROCHIMARU > ITACHI (FEATS/ABILITIES)*

Shuriken - Fuuton: Daitoppa/Dodge
Katon - Suiton: Suijinheki/Dodge
Genjutsu - Partner Method/Stay out of range (either below ground with LAC or above using Manda)
Tsukuyomi - Stay Out of Range/Shirohebi Kawarimi
Amaterasu - Shirohebi Kawarimi/Manda Skin Moulting
Susano'o - bypass defence by attacking underground using Mokuton/LAC + Kusanagi/Manda
Totsuka no Tsurugi - Dodge/Send Edo Tobirama forward as a decoy when V4 Susano'o emerges
Yata no Kagami - bypass defence by attacking underground using Mokuton/LAC + Kusanagi/Manda
Short Range CQC-fighting - Curse Mark/Gogyo Fuin/Kusanagi: Ku no Tachi/Tongue/Edo's Taijutsu/Poison usage/Sojasosai/Jagei Jubaku
Long Range distanced fighting - Manda (he fights from a distance where Orochimaru himself is concerned)/Mokuton/Daitoppa/Kusanagi: Ku no Tachi/Soft Physique Modification via Tongue/Extending Kusanagi/Mandara no Jin
Again, what part of this are people not understanding? Orochimaru's two most useful weapons against Itachi is Kuchiyose (Manda/Edo Tensei), an ability he cannot use if his arms are sealed/won't use if he is trying to take Itachi's body with limited knowledge on Itachi's capabilities. What part of this don't people get? Prime Orochimaru would have defeated Itachi in an actual fight. Again, what part of this are people not able to grasp? If Jiraiya can beat Itachi why can't Orochimaru?

*3. AND FINALLY, UNCOVERING SOME MISCONCEPTIONS*

The relationship between "Prime Orochimaru and Nerfed Orochimaru"
I can't remember the threads, but I wish I could, because I can remember two instances where someone basically claimed that Part 1 Orochimaru with arms (Manda/Aoda/San Kyodaija etc Edo Tensei/Curse Mark/Gogyo Fuin/Kanashibari no Jutsu etc) is equal to a Part 2 Orochimaru with no arms (who has none of those powers, yet still as Kawarimi/Yamata/Shirohebi Form/Mandara no Jin/Senei jashu/Jagei Jubaku/Rashomon/Sanjuu Rashomon, all abilties which require no hand seals) let alone end of Part 1 Orochimaru (Sannin fight Orochimaru, who loses a lot of those abiltiies he had in Part 2 let alone his Part 1 abilities). Simply put, these ninjas are not the same. Part 1 Orochimaru that has all his abilities, has Manda and Edo Tensei, abilties he did not have/wss not going to use when he claimed inferiority to/was beaten by/was trying to take the body of Itachi Uchiha.

The relationship between "Prime Orochimaru" and "SM Kabuto" / "Healthy Itachi" and "Edo Itachi"
People's excuse to wank Itachi is usually that an immortal, unlimited stamina version of Itachi beat a better version of Orochimaru. Firstly, Itachi is alive here, not immortal, does not have unlimited stamina, and using MS 3 times will cause his Sharingan to deactivate. And secondly, I don't know who is stronger between Prime Orochimaru and SM Kabuto, im not here to discuss that, but what I do know is that, the abilities that Orochimaru would use to fight Itachi (Edo Tensei and Manda) are abilities Kabuto did not have (he cannot summon Manda 2.0 in a small cave, and if he had Part 1 Edo Senju Bros., they would have been on the war battlefield anyway) so why make that comparison? SM Kabuto in the cave, and Prime Orochimaru in a location like the Sannin Battlefield, are two completely different fighters. Just because they share some abilities doesn't mean they are the same. Thats like saying Tobirama and Minato are the same because they share two common jutsus. Its such a silly thing to do and people only use that argument to put Itachi above Prime Orochimaru because they dont have any feats arguments in the first place. All they can do is reuse arguments I have already countered.



______________________________________________________________________________
Then I don't know what more I can say.

As @Hussain said, some of us are reading different versions of the manga. In the one I read, Itachi is a low end High Kage Tier shinobi. In the one you read, maybe he's nearing Top Tier like Pain/Nagato.

@UltimateDeadpool - you liked my essay. What is your opinion on the outcome of "Prime Orochimaru" (basically Part 1 Oro) vs "Healthy Itachi" (Part 2 Itachi with his Part 1 physiology/health status)

@PhantomSage - you at least said you think Orochimaru can win. I also do, well, I'm certain to be honest, even if that makes me sound arrogant. I did say I was gonna invite you to a discussion where I gathered up essays an arguments, but then I logged off and forgot, I'll do that now so that you can see I am not just a crazy fanboy with mental disorder (it's so ironic than I've been called this today ... so ironic). @UltimateDeadpool I'll invite you as well since you seem to think there is even the slightest chance Orochimaru is winning this.

Well guys, that's it, for this thread at least. I can't say anything else without repeating myself like a robot. This battle is over, but the war has only just started. And based on the fact no one countered my essay or actually considered my arguments (I've received more insults than counters), I'd like to say, that I and @HandfullofNaruto have won this debate, just like we won this debate () and the debates here ().

Anyway, no hard feelings, all of you have a nice day.

PS: If you'd spent as much time reading my essays as you did insulting me and accusing @HandfullofNaruto of being my dupe account, then maybe we could actually get somewhere with this debate.


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> As @Hussain said, some of us are reading different versions of the manga. In the one I read, Itachi is a low end High Kage Tier shinobi. In the one you read, maybe he's nearing Top Tier like Pain/Nagato.


Kishi said itachi is a jonin-level.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 22, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Kishi said itachi is a jonin-level.


Where? Which panel please?


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2016)

> On Shippuden’s/ Part II’s plot - Kobayashi starts off asking about whether there was framework put in place for the direction of Shippuden’s story. Kishimoto replies that because Naruto and his group were so weak as genin in the first part, so he wanted to make them stronger in the second part. This is especially because he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level, so he had to make the main cast stronger too. He also used the timeskip as a chance to change their clothes, since he didn’t like the swirl on the arm of Naruto’s jacket, and also his thick collar in Part 1 got in the way of his face in action scenes. So he drew a small collar and dropped the swirl. He also added the headband with the long tails at the back so they would stand out and flutter during action scenes.


Amaterasu


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Illustrate this with manga panels/databook scans please.



Sure.

breaking pound for pound

Kabuto's horn is still cut after using Oral rebirth.
Kawarimi's princible is to use it before you sustain the damage, not after it so that you can negate the incoming damage and decieve your opponent.



> And also, insult me one more time and I will report you, cos frankly, I'm tired of you now.


It wasn't an insult, just an observation.



> So then why did Itachi cut off his hand if he wasn't going to "Kai" out of the Genjutsu.


Thats a different type of genjutsu, the scans I posted disprove your claim. Sasuke and Itachi were standing still the whole time, just like Naruto was standing still here :breaking pound for pound
just like Sasuke wasn't transformed into CS2 state in reality  : breaking pound for pound
breaking pound for pound
Any jutsu Orochimaru uses inside the genjutsu will be useless.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 22, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure.
> 
> breaking pound for pound
> 
> Kabuto's horn is still cut after using Oral rebirth.


Is that not due to the izanami loop?


Sorry, but I'm gonna need a better proof outside of such a shaky context.



> Kawarimi's princible is to use it before you sustain the damage, not after it so that you can negate the incoming damage and decieve your opponent.





> It wasn't an insult, just an observation.


So I have mental issues? Okay then. Reporting.



> Thats a different type of genjutsu, the scans I posted disprove your claim. Sasuke and Itachi were standing still the whole time, just like Naruto was standing still here :breaking pound for pound
> just like Sasuke wasn't transformed into CS2 state in reality  : breaking pound for pound
> breaking pound for pound
> Any jutsu Orochimaru uses inside the genjutsu will be useless.



I understand that, but Orochimaru is not using it in the Genjutsu. He waits until the Genjutsu is over, and then regenerates a new body. Read the description of the technique.


> *Orochimaru-Style Body Replacement Technique*
> Used primarily *after sustaining* massive *injury* or as a means to elude a seemingly inescapable attack, this technique allows the user to materialise a new body — typically by regurgitating it from their mouth — in a manner that somewhat resembles how a snake sheds its skin. After emerging, the user's clothing and injuries are completely restored, with even amputated limbs being regenerated. Whilst the technique has the additional advantage of potentially being extremely difficult to detect, its use consumes a great amount of chakra. The technique can seemingly be used no matter how serious the injury, as Orochimaru was able to use it to materialise a new body *even after* Kabuto cut his throat open and grievously injured his body.





Hussain said:


> Amaterasu


Oh wow lol ... I'm, guessing Kishi meant rank (Jiraiya is also a Jonin, Kage level isnt a thing, just something we use on forums, but then again, the Anbu watching did comment that Hiruzen vs Orochimaru was a "Hokage level combat", so who am I to disagree lol!1)

Anyway, sorry Grimmjow, but there are just not enough specifics on the jutsu to discern whether Tsukuyomi will be able to overcome it or not. In it's description it's stated to both be substitution (in the name of the jutsu) and regeneration (in the description of it) and since it's been made a point that you use the jutsu after you've taken damage, I'm assuming its just a simple regeneration ability. Because at the end of the day, even if it is a substitution as Sasuke said (is Sasuke even the inventor of the jutsu? No), it's much, much, much more advanced than your average kawarimi, as we can see.

*Spoiler*: __ 




*EDIT: OH AND THANKS FOR THOSE LINKS @Grimmjowsensei - THIS IS THE SCAN FOR THOSE WHO SAID "WHEN HAS SOMEONE EVER BROKEN ANOTHER PERSON OUT OF GENJUTSU"
*
*Spoiler*: __ 











And again @Grimmjowsensei, why are you ignoring the things I have said and just cherrypicking out one detail. Didn't @HandfullofNaruto scold you for this?
*
@IzayaOrihara*
At the end of the day:



> *Amaterasu* is a  , the highest level ofFire Release.[2] Said to represent the "Material World and Light" (物質界と光, _Busshitsukai to Hikari_), Amaterasu is the antipode toTsukuyomi.


antipode
ˈantɪpəʊd/
_noun_
noun: *antipode*

the direct opposite of something.
"the pole and its antipode"



> *Tsukuyomi* is noted to be one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence.[2] It is said to represent the "Spiritual World and Darkness" (精神界と闇, _Seishinkai to Yami_), the antipode toAmaterasu — a ninjutsu of similar power.


The same data-book you love to cling to so much (no offence lol) states that Tsukuyomi is a jutsu of similar power to Amaterasu, which Sasuke trolled on-panel using a technique from Orochimaru's repertoire.

So nothing suggests the White Snake Body Replacement Technique cannot counter Tsukuyomi. After the genjutsu is over, Orochimaru spews up a fresh body free of brain damage.

*EDIT:*
And @Grimmjowsensei, even if you want to do the whole Kawarimi activation argument, Orochimaru simply activates it before Itachi does the Genjutsu on him, if you think it needs to work that way. He could just activate it as soon as Itachi gets within range so that if he does land Tsukuyomi, then he kawarimis, not that he'd need to. He can just use the regeneration ability after the Genjutsu is over. 

And either way, he has the White Snake Form to fall back on, and it takes like 3 seconds to use Tsukuyomi right? 3 seconds = 72 hours or something like that. What makes you think that in those 3 seconds, Hashirama, Tobirama and Manda are standing still doing nothing? And what about the fatigue Itachi suffers after the fact. Plus the fact even if Tsukuyomi was > Oral Rebirth (impossible since Tsukuyomi = Amaterasu < Oral Rebirth according to both Manga and Data-Book), he'd only be doing Orochimaru a favour as he'd just emerge in his Shirohebi Form after and kill Itachi with neurotoxins, burrowing underground like Manda to avoid Totsuka/bypass Yata defence.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 22, 2016)

People, but how is even possibile that this is this still going? The fact that Itachi >>> Orochimaru is literally one of those things that can't be debated, it simply is like that, Kishimoto went out of his way to show and portray this.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Is that not due to the izanami loop?
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I'm gonna need a better proof outside of such a shaky context.


There is nothing shaky about the Izanami loop, otherwise Kabuto would mention it. He actually found it weird that his horn was intact after using oral rebirth. If he thought Oral rebirth would regenerate that, he wouldn't be surprised now would he ? : breaking pound for pound

But here : 

This is prior to the loop and you can see Kabuto's horn is still chopped.



> So I have mental issues? Okay then. Reporting.



Well go ahead. I am sorry but I geniunely believe that. Not trying to insult you or anything.



> even if you want to do the whole Kawarimi activation argument, Orochimaru simply activates it before Itachi does the Genjutsu on him, if you think it needs to work that way. He could just activate it as soon as Itachi gets within range so that if he does land Tsukuyomi, then he kawarimis, not that he'd need to. He can just use the regeneration ability after the Genjutsu is over.



How does Orochimaru know when Tsukiyomi is coming ? There are no subtle cues to it, unlike Amaterasu.
It is one thing to anticipate a physical attack, and another to anticipate genjutsu.

Also you are assuming that Orochimaru will be composed enough to use a jutsu after Tsukiyomi, which is a bold estimation. It is likely that he'll be comatosed.




> And either way, he has the White Snake Form to fall back on, and it takes like 3 seconds to use Tsukuyomi right? 3 seconds = 72 hours or something like that.


 

There has been no mention of 3 seconds. All we know is that it takes an "instant." breaking pound for pound

So it certainly is shorter than 3 seconds.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 22, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> People, but how is even possibile that this is this still going? The fact that Itachi >>> Orochimaru is literally one of those things that can't be debated, it simply is like that, Kishimoto went out of his way to show and portray this.



Sure, if you only look at the pictures and don't read. So it's getting debated. 

It also makes no sense for Itachi to be >>> Orochimaru.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2016)

> It also makes no sense for Itachi to be >>> Orochimaru.


Thats why author told you he is right ?



This guy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jay2016 (Jun 22, 2016)

Well we can't say for sure. 
If yall remember Oro got hashi cells implanted in him and a white zetsu body which means he is capable of using sage mode and mokuton. Well for starters itachi isn't that far ahead of Oro without mokuton or sm, if he got both he'll more than likely take this mid difficulty. I think will know later in the boruto magna. I'm guessing 400-600 chapters of boruto.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto 

 I'll get to your argument later, but I assure you that I will only address what is important because this debate is way too long for me to ever commit to it. 


As for @IzayaOrihara ... Can't say I'm surprised. Enjoy banned camp.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jun 22, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @HandfullofNarutoI'll get to your argument later, but I assure you that I will only address what is important because this debate is way too long for me to ever commit to it.



Understood.



> As for @IzayaOrihara ... Can't say I'm surprised. Enjoy banned camp.


 wow, I enjoy your witticism.

Edit: I'm not going to be on the BD for a few days anyway & honestly I'm sick of this thread. So do what you'll do but.. eh.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 22, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> I called Black Zetsu a retcon didn't I?.
> 
> He wasn't praising him because of Susano'o in the first place, but those weapons specifically. Seeing as he is probably as old as legends themselves and saw things far beyond that scope with his own eyes anyway, that matters little.
> 
> Well no shit he isn't perfect. No one is. He isn't invincible either, but seeing as Minato is also neither of these things, it's no slight against Itachi.


 Neither of them are invincible, we both agree on that, my main point though is that Minato's aura of being "invincible/unsurpassed/ect" was referring to his general abilities as a whole and was more consistent. As opposed to Itachi's only pertaining to one technique of his that he cannot maintain for long and kills him the process.




> Based on what? Did anywhere ever show Orochimaru lamenting that he would defeat him if he was at his best, or Itachi saying he could only beat him due to some restriction like Sasuke did? No. It flat out portrayed him as better, and went out of it's way to reiterate this fact with multiple character statements and two entirely one sided bouts. Orochimaru flat out said getting him was an impossible dream. It doesn't get any clearer than that.


 Based on pretty much everything that myself, Izaya, and HandfulofNaruto have been saying for weeks in every Orochimaru versus Itachi thread. In every instance that Orochimaru was portrayed as weaker, he was handicapped in someway. However, when Orochimaru didn't suffer from any major ailment and was at his best. He was portrayed as being within the same bracket or stronger than people who are all beyond Itachi. Kishi contradicts himself in his own Manga with Itachi, he depicts Orochi as being weaker than him yet also compares him to people much stronger than Itachi. Which is why the only way to make sense of it is by realizing that when he is inferior, he is weakened, and when he is superior, he isn't.  See the correlation? 




> And I'm not seeing how you perceive it as anything but that. The VIZ translation only makes it clearer. That statement is as explicit as it gets.
> 
> In any case I can't help but said that statement as dubious at best and bullshit at worst, thanks to Orochimaru's own admission flat out contradicting it and Itachi's proclivity for lying through his teeth. Kisame questioning why he even had to flee just make it not the most credible thing around. But I'll leave it at that.


 Orochimaru's admissions are under the influence of him being weakened and plot, and Itachi literally had no reason to lie at all in that moment. Just because he was a liar, doesn't mean that every single thing he said prior to his rebirth was lies.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 22, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Neither of them are invincible, we both agree on that, my main point though is that Minato's aura of being "invincible/unsurpassed/ect" was referring to his general abilities as a whole and was more consistent. As opposed to Itachi's only pertaining to one technique of his that he cannot maintain for long and kills him the process.
> 
> 
> Based on pretty much everything that myself, Izaya, and HandfulofNaruto have been saying for weeks in every Orochimaru versus Itachi thread. In every instance that Orochimaru was portrayed as weaker, he was handicapped in someway. However, when Orochimaru didn't suffer from any major ailment and was at his best. He was portrayed as being within the same bracket or stronger than people who are all beyond Itachi. Kishi contradicts himself in his own Manga with Itachi, he depicts Orochi as being weaker than him yet also compares him to people much stronger than Itachi. Which is why the only way to make sense of it is by realizing that when he is inferior, he is weakened, and when he is superior, he isn't.  See the correlation?
> ...










> Based on pretty much everything that myself, Izaya, and HandfulofNaruto have been saying for weeks in every Orochimaru versus Itachi thread. In every instance that Orochimaru was portrayed as weaker, he was handicapped in someway. However, when Orochimaru didn't suffer from any major ailment and was at his best. *He was portrayed as being within the same bracket or stronger than people who are all beyond Itachi. *Kishi contradicts himself in his own Manga with Itachi, he depicts Orochi as being weaker than him yet also compares him to people much stronger than Itachi. Which is why the only way to make sense of it is by realizing that when he is inferior, he is weakened, and when he is superior, he isn't.  See the correlation?




Why do you always try to play the portrayal game against Itachi? Do you really want to go down that route AGAIN? 





> Itachi literally had no reason to lie at all in that moment. Just because he was a liar, doesn't mean that every single thing he said prior to his rebirth was lies.



The most obvious reason being Itachi was on Konoha's side and was only there to warn Danzo. Plus the fact he has to preserve his eyes as much as possible for the final fight with Sasuke. Plus the fact that both he and kisame would have utterly destroyed Jiraiya if they fought. Kisame even suggested that much.


But your excuse was "Orochimaru was weakened when he said it" and "Orochimaru was compared to superior shinobi's so that means Kishi contradicted himself". I can also say Itachi used his MS jutsu and other techniques which reduced his chakra when he said it, so that means Itachi said it in his "weakened state" ?  


I think that any outside observer can see how flawed your logic and arguments are.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 23, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Neither of them are invincible, we both agree on that, my main point though is that Minato's aura of being "invincible/unsurpassed/ect" was referring to his general abilities as a whole and was more consistent. As opposed to Itachi's only pertaining to one technique of his that he cannot maintain for long and kills him the process.


All of Itachi's hype was never accredited to Susano'o alone to begin with, same as how Hiraishin wasn't the only thing that garnered Minato praise. It was everything about him, his genius, eyes, and the rest of his arsenal included.



> Based on pretty much everything that myself, Izaya, and HandfulofNaruto have been saying for weeks in every Orochimaru versus Itachi thread. In every instance that Orochimaru was portrayed as weaker, he was handicapped in someway.



Like I said, this is flat out not true. Nowhere accredited Orochimaru's inferiority to him being gimped or any other situational condition. It was an unconditional admission, and Orochimaru wasn't even sick in their first encounter. How Orochimaru being sick is supposed to be an excuse when Itachi himself was terminal with shitty eyesight is beyond me.



> However, when Orochimaru didn't suffer from any major ailment and was at his best. *He was portrayed as being within the same bracket or stronger than people who are all beyond Itachi.* Kishi contradicts himself in his own Manga with Itachi, he depicts Orochi as being weaker than him yet also compares him to people much stronger than Itachi. Which is why the only way to make sense of it is by realizing that when he is inferior, he is weakened, and when he is superior, he isn't.  See the correlation?



When was the bold? Prior to gaining the ET Hokage, he was never put on the same level as people who were established as beyond Itachi, and virtually all of his comparisons were limited to Jiraiya, the Uchiha bros, and Hiruzen. If it's after gaining the Hokage, Kishi never portrayed Itachi as stronger at that point. The man was flat out superior to anyone who didn't have some sort of Rikudo hax shoved up their ass.



> Orochimaru's admissions are under the influence of him being weakened and plot, and Itachi literally had no reason to lie at all
> in that moment. Just because he was a liar, doesn't mean that every single thing he said prior to his rebirth was lies.



Orochimaru said it as a general statement. He didn't add on "because he's stronger than I am _*"now*_" to it, and the plot dictates everything that's never an excuse outside of retcons and blatant asspulls.

He had even less reason to tell the truth, and it certainly doesn't come of as honest when Kisame flat out asked him why he has to run despite his power.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2016)

Orochimaru's admission of inferiority isn't conditional.

Orochimaru says he can't take Itachi's body because Itachi is stronger than him. He attempted to take Itachi's body prior to Konoha invasion. Meaning, he acknowledged that Itachi was stronger than him long before Hiruzen took his arms. He also says "thats the reason why I left the organization" and we see a panel of his sewered hand. Which means Orochimaru's admission of inferiority is based off of a defeat.
In other words, that admission is based off their encounter years ago, which had nothing to do with his current condition.

In part 2, Sasuke repeats the same thing, he says that neither Orochimaru nor himself can defeat Itachi unless they merge.
Mind you thats before the "no arms" retcon. So Kishimoto clearly had the idea that Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru set in stone at that point.

Also you don't go out of your way and illustrate one character get stomped by another character, admit defeat and inferiority if the said character isn't actually weaker without giving specific reasons why that thing happened. Because it surely doesn't happen often. Especially in shounen. Stronger characters defeat weaker ones. There are a few exceptions, like Itachi vs Sasuke but like I said, Kishimoto gave in depth explanation on why Itachi lost.

Orochimaru vs Itachi debate is the most ridiculous debate in the history of these boards. Considering there aren't many clear cut examples of such verbal and visual display of superiority between other adversaries.


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## Jay2016 (Jun 23, 2016)

If Orochimaru isn't weak and has hashi cells he beats itachi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2016)

Gotta agree unless this thread says oro with ET hokage already summoned and hashirama cells he looses

Kishi has never put such an effort into emphasing a difference in power between 2 characters in battle 

This thread is as pointless as Madara vs hashirama
Thread when we know who is clearly stronger


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## Jay2016 (Jun 23, 2016)

Withh hashi cells and the zetsu body. I'm pretty sure he already got sage mode. Along with mokuton.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> Withh hashi cells and the zetsu body. I'm pretty sure he already got sage mode. Along with mokuton.



Yup like I said then he would probably win 

Which I doubt is the point of this thread


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 23, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Why do you always try to play the portrayal game against Itachi? Do you really want to go down that route AGAIN?


 Cause it reinforces my argument.







> The most obvious reason being Itachi was on Konoha's side and was only there to warn Danzo. Plus the fact he has to preserve his eyes as much as possible for the final fight with Sasuke. Plus the fact that both he and kisame would have utterly destroyed Jiraiya if they fought. Kisame even suggested that much.


 Those are excuses and nothing more, you've yet to provide an actual legitimate reason for why Itachi's entire quote is simply lies.




> But your excuse was "Orochimaru was weakened when he said it" and "Orochimaru was compared to superior shinobi's so that means Kishi contradicted himself". I can also say Itachi used his MS jutsu and other techniques which reduced his chakra when he said it, so that means Itachi said it in his "weakened state" ?
> 
> 
> I think that any outside observer can see how flawed your logic and arguments are.


 No you can't, because those are incomparable situations. That isn't an actual weakened state for Itachi, simply the drawback of him using MS techniques.



VolatileSoul said:


> All of Itachi's hype was never accredited to Susano'o alone to begin with, same as how Hiraishin wasn't the only thing that garnered Minato praise. It was everything about him, his genius, eyes, and the rest of his arsenal included.


 Not when it came to being called "invincible" it wasn't, that was attributed only to his Susanoo with the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror.





> Like I said, this is flat out not true. Nowhere accredited Orochimaru's inferiority to him being gimped or any other situational condition. It was an unconditional admission, and Orochimaru wasn't even sick in their first encounter. How Orochimaru being sick is supposed to be an excuse when Itachi himself was terminal with shitty eyesight is beyond me.


 It isn't accredited in the actual series because it is under the influence of Kishi's biased writing, and the rest of what you said is false. Orochimaru can only switch bodies every three years, and based on what Jiraiya said combined with what we saw shortly before Orochimaru's "death" would mean that when he confronted Itachi the first time he was not only using a body that was rejecting him: but he also lacked killing intent. We don't even know if Itachi was terminal at that point either, he was only confirmed terminal during their second brief encounter.





> When was the bold? Prior to gaining the ET Hokage, he was never put on the same level as people who were established as beyond Itachi, and virtually all of his comparisons were limited to Jiraiya, the Uchiha bros, and Hiruzen. If it's after gaining the Hokage, Kishi never portrayed Itachi as stronger at that point. The man was flat out superior to anyone who didn't have some sort of Rikudo hax shoved up their ass.


 Orochimaru was classified as Jiraiya's superior, who is stronger or equal to Itachi. Orochimaru was established as being more talented than Hiruzen (who at his prime is stronger than Itachi), who in turn was established as being more talented than Tobirama (who is also stronger than Itachi). Then finally, there's the fact that Orochimaru was to be chosen over Minato (who is stronger than Itachi) as Hokage but wasn't due to his negative intentions. We can argue the circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that Orochimaru was more talented than/chosen over/compared to people who were established as more powerful than Itachi.





> Orochimaru said it as a general statement. He didn't add on "because he's stronger than I am _*"now*_" to it, and the plot dictates everything that's never an excuse outside of retcons and blatant asspulls.


 I don't know what else I can say if it isn't clear by now that Kishimoto himself is an Itachi wanker who will do anything to put him above others when other established parts of his Manga would suggest otherwise.



> He had even less reason to tell the truth, and it certainly doesn't come of as honest when Kisame flat out asked him why he has to run despite his power.


 Honestly, this still isn't any indication of superiority. The only thing you can get out of this is that they're within the same bracket of power.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2016)

nothing cuter than denial of the manga and calling the writer biased. perhaps I suggest such people write their own manga....
might as well say kishi is biased towards Naruto since his TNJ always seems to work.
or he is biased because he gives characters with more plot relevance better jutsu

you know what if kishi wasn't biased 1010 would be the strongest ninja...he only made her throw kunai because he doesn't like her


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> nothing cuter than denial of the manga and calling the writer biased. perhaps I suggest such people write their own manga....
> might as well say kishi is biased towards Naruto since his TNJ always seems to work.
> or he is biased because he gives characters with more plot relevance better jutsu
> 
> you know what if kishi wasn't biased 1010 would be the strongest ninja...he only made her throw kunai because he doesn't like her


How am I denying the Manga when I am using the Manga to counter the Manga? I've explained this before many times. I'm using the more logical and non-biased parts of the Manga to counter the parts that are under the influence of biased and illogical writing. This isn't hard to comprehend, which is why I feel like you simply do not agree. So at this point, all that can be said, is "Let's agree to disagree".


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> Withh hashi cells and the zetsu body. I'm pretty sure he already got sage mode. Along with mokuton.


baseless speculation.

Any suggestions on why he didn't use any of those abilities during the war ?



Isaiah13000 said:


> How am I denying the Manga when I am using the Manga to counter the Manga? I've explained this before many times. I'm using the more logical and non-biased parts of the Manga to counter the parts that are under the influence of biased and illogical writing. This isn't hard to comprehend, which is why I feel like you simply do not agree. So at this point, all that can be said, is "Let's agree to disagree".



Calling the author "biased."

When you think people can't get any dumber.


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## Jay2016 (Jun 23, 2016)

Bc he just received hashi cells. You can't go sage mode till you learn in which he could but did have the body for it and now he does. He had no time to go back to the white snake sage and no time to automatically know mokuton.
Like I said earlier we cannot yet say itachi can win bc we don't know prime Oro and will not know till later in the boruto magna.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Calling the author "biased."
> 
> When you think people can't get any dumber.


 Not my fault that you're incapable of taking off your Pro-Itachi Uchiha glasses. Like seriously, my argument cannot be any clearer.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 23, 2016)

How can the author be biased? That makes no fucking sense. There's shitty writing, I'm with you on that. But how the fuck can the author be biased? In that case this whole forum is just meaningless. The story is what it is, take it or leave it.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> How am I denying the Manga when I am using the Manga to counter the Manga? I've explained this before many times. I'm using the more logical and non-biased parts of the Manga to counter the parts that are under the influence of biased and illogical writing. This isn't hard to comprehend, which is why I feel like you simply do not agree. So at this point, all that can be said, is "Let's agree to disagree".





ur points have been from portrayal
kakashi was afraid of oro and not of itachi therefore oro>itachi
oro was portrayed as stronger than jiriaya and itachi claimed he cant beat jiriaya therefore oro >itachi

but then somehow despite oro weakness being confirmed twice by himself and sasuke you come up with the author was biased when oro said that and it had to be when orochimaru was weakened

how about itachi being terminally ill since the manga started?

you do realize there is such a thing as jutsu match up? minato doesn't have to be above certain characters to have a much much easier time against obito than some would. madara giant PS for all it is wont be able to touch obito..minato with 1 kunai can troll obito

so yes jiraya can be weaker than oro yet stronger than itachi despite the fact that itachi>orochimaru

unlike orochimaru jiriaya SENJUTSU techniques have been shown to be an obvious weakness of the uchiha

sage sound genjutsu by passed Susanoo...jiraiya got that

sage sound ninjutsu by passed Susanoo..jiraiya got that

again these were things clearly stated and shown to by pass itachi best defensive ability...oro abilities were simply not shown that way

instead we have him using his BEST technique only to be 1 shotted by itachi..oh and btw oro could use his hands when he got totsuka..he was holding his sword

It isn't about agreeing to disagree its the flaw in ur logic in thinking being able to beat jiraiya for some reason means he wont get slapped around by itachi

also note asuma was not slightly afraid of itachi either, in fact he didn't have that much info on him

kakashi knew itachi as a teenager that's it.

oro however was a famous ninja who had fought in multiple wars, so kakashi being terrified of him makes a good deal of sense. itachi simply was not a war veteran..why fear someone you don't know that much about?

would be a weird thing to do..not like itachi chakra is overwhelming which could scare kakashi....orochimaru's however has been shown cracking roof tops...

none of this however negates the fact that the manga shows uchiha techniques being perfect against orochimaru...


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## Jay2016 (Jun 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Conjecture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 23, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> How can the author be biased? That makes no fucking sense. There's shitty writing, I'm with you on that. But how the fuck can the author be biased? In that case this whole forum is just meaningless. The story is what it is, take it or leave it.


 That's basically what I meant, when it comes to Itachi and the Uchiha in general the writing starts getting shitty and illogical with the introduction of deus ex machinas, plot devices, and just flat-out asspulls so that the story can continue to move along under the influence of the Uchiha. It's one of the many reasons the series got the nickname "Uchiha Shippuden".



Icegaze said:


> ur points have been from portrayal
> kakashi was afraid of oro and not of itachi therefore oro>itachi
> oro was portrayed as stronger than jiriaya and itachi claimed he cant beat jiriaya therefore oro >itachi


 This, combined with the rest of my argument. Correct.



> but then somehow despite oro weakness being confirmed twice by himself and sasuke you come up with the author was biased when oro said that and it had to be when orochimaru was weakened


 Because Orochimaru was factually weakened in every single instance he admitted inferiority to/lost to Itachi and wasn't fighting like he should be able too. 



> how about itachi being terminally ill since the manga started?


 What about it?



> you do realize there is such a thing as jutsu match up? minato doesn't have to be above certain characters to have a much much easier time against obito than some would. madara giant PS for all it is wont be able to touch obito..minato with 1 kunai can troll obito


 Yes, and Orochimaru's entire arsenal can counter Itachi's.



> so yes jiraya can be weaker than oro yet stronger than itachi despite the fact that itachi>orochimaru


 Yes, that is possible. But that is not really the case here.



> unlike orochimaru jiriaya SENJUTSU techniques have been shown to be an obvious weakness of the uchiha
> 
> sage sound genjutsu by passed Susanoo...jiraiya got that
> 
> ...


 Because Kishi is writing the battles, and he likes Itachi so much that he will make other character's not use their abilities to their best and act retarded to make him look good. Have I not been over this? 



> instead we have him using his BEST technique only to be 1 shotted by itachi..oh and btw oro could use his hands when he got totsuka..he was holding his sword


 I don't care if the data book says that is his best technique, the Manga shows otherwise and it isn't that powerful. Also just because he can use his hands to hold a sword, doesn't mean he can use them to mold jutsu.



> It isn't about agreeing to disagree its the flaw in ur logic in thinking being able to beat jiraiya for some reason means he wont get slapped around by itachi


 My argument isn't dependent on that, but many other factors.



> also note asuma was not slightly afraid of itachi either, in fact he didn't have that much info on him
> 
> kakashi knew itachi as a teenager that's it.
> 
> oro however was a famous ninja who had fought in multiple wars, so kakashi being terrified of him makes a good deal of sense. itachi simply was not a war veteran..why fear someone you don't know that much about?


 Itachi was also the famed prodigy of the Uchiha Clan who was one of the youngest ANBU in history who single-handedly (or so they believed) massacred the strongest clan in the Leaf (and the world) over night. So no they actually did know a decent amount about Itachi, and their reactions to Itachi pale in comparison to Kakashi's reaction to Orochimaru.



> would be a weird thing to do..not like itachi chakra is overwhelming which could scare kakashi....orochimaru's however has been shown cracking roof tops...
> 
> none of this however negates the fact that the manga shows uchiha techniques being perfect against orochimaru...


 That's highly irrelevant and a simple excuse. They're only "perfect" against Orochimaru when he is nerfed, not at his best. I'd bother making a more legit response but after all of the arguing that me, Izaya, and Handful have done I'd just be repeating the same points and you'd just falsely refute them.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2016)

Then we leave it at kishi likes itachi too much and you don't 

Sounds legit to me



Like I said one can always write their own manga where oro wins 

Only way he is


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Then we leave it at kishi likes itachi too much and you don't
> 
> Sounds legit to me
> 
> ...


It's not that I don't like Itachi, I dislike the bullshit that Kishi created on the spot to depict him as superior to an individual that should realistically be stronger than him based on the rest of his Manga.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Not when it came to being called "invincible" it wasn't, that was attributed only to his Susanoo with the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror.


I know. What I'm saying is that his hype in it's entirety was never accredited to just Susano'o alone. It was his abilities in general.



> It isn't accredited in the actual series because it is under the influence of Kishi's biased writing,



It's no secret the man's a hack, but whether or not he's biased doesn't really change what's presented in the actual story. It's his own story after all. He can do whatever the fuck he wants with it, even though he really,_ really_ shouldn't.



> and the rest of what you said is false. Orochimaru can only switch bodies every three years, and based on what Jiraiya said combined with what we saw shortly before Orochimaru's "death" would mean that when he confronted Itachi the first time he was not only using a body that was rejecting him: but he also lacked killing intent. We don't even know if Itachi was terminal at that point either, he was only confirmed terminal during their second brief encounter.



That's nice. He then proceeded to get curbstomped in less than a minute by a completely blind Itachi literally seconds away from death while he no longer sufferer dfrom rejection. Orochimaru didn't even know the full extent of Itachi's abilities and still called himself inferior. So again, no. It wasn't conditional. It was made painfully clear that there was a sizeable gap between them in Itachi's favor.



> Orochimaru was classified as Jiraiya's superior, *who is stronger or equal to Itachi.*


This is only an issue because you cling to the bold as if it was the gospel truth.



> Orochimaru was established as being more talented than Hiruzen (who at his prime is stronger than Itachi), who in turn was established as being more talented than Tobirama (who is also stronger than Itachi).



Orochimaru was established as being less talented than Sasuke (who Itachi was stronger than at the time), so even by your reasoning, Itachi>Orochimaru.

But yeah this is shoddy argumentation. Talent =/= strength. Sasuke was far more talented than Orochimaru yet weaker, and both Hiruzen in his prime and Tobirama are stronger than Orochimaru. Then there are those with no talent whatsoever being on par with in once in a generation geniuses.



> Then finally, there's the fact that Orochimaru was to be chosen over Minato (who is stronger than Itachi) as Hokage but wasn't due to his negative intentions. We can argue the circumstances, but it doesn't change the fact that Orochimaru was more talented than/chosen over/compared to people who were established as more powerful than Itachi.



He wasn't to be chosen over Minato. He was simply the original candidate. Minato's stronger than him, and the Hokage position isn't awarded based on strength alone to begin with, so this was never even an argument.



> I don't know what else I can say if it isn't clear by now that Kishimoto himself is an Itachi wanker


Don't need to say anything. That fact is readily apparent. It is also irrelevant because it doesn't change what's in the manga, and thus what we're actually debating, one iota.



> who will do anything to put him above others when other established parts of his Manga would suggest otherwise.



'Cept this flat out isn't true. Orochimaru wasn't portrayed as inferior when he got his arms and Edo Kage, and at no point before that was he portrayed as on par with or stronger than people superior to Itachi.



> Honestly, this still isn't any indication of superiority. The only thing you can get out of this is that they're within the same bracket of power.


Sure. But it wasn't this, but the whole Itachi>Orochimaru thing that indicated superiority. This just highlighted than him running was due to more than meets the eye.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That's basically what I meant, when it comes to Itachi and the Uchiha in general the writing starts getting shitty and illogical with the introduction of deus ex machinas, plot devices, and just flat-out asspulls.



Thats your opinion. A shitty one at that. 

From my point of view Itachi parts are the best written parts. 

You are a moron if you think what you just said is universally applicable and can be used as an excuse or an argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats your opinion. A shitty one at that.
> 
> From my point of view Itachi parts are the best written parts.
> 
> You are a moron if you think what you just said is universally applicable and can be used as an excuse or an argument.



Lol you are both hilarious 

Him for being overtly emotional over a fictional character and you for being hilariously defensive 

Itachi parts were written like the rest of the manga with plot holes and add and omits to fit the story when needed 

Convenient koto

Suddenly giving minato SM

Retcon frog kata's 

Etc

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Jun 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats why author told you he is right ?
> 
> 
> 
> This guy.


You basically do the same thing when the author told you that Jiraiya > Itachi. 

So I don't see a reason to laugh at what he said when you do the exact same thing.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You basically do the same thing when the author told you that Jiraiya > Itachi.
> 
> So I don't see a reason to laugh at what he said when you do the exact same thing.


Yeah this is my favorite thread, because the Itachi-fanboys have finally met their match

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 24, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You basically do the same thing when the author told you that Jiraiya > Itachi.
> 
> So I don't see a reason to laugh at what he said when you do the exact same thing.



when did the author say that?


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## Trojan (Jun 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> when did the author say that?


I know it hurts, but there goes
Itachi's fans couldn't handle the truth for the past 15 years, so I don't think you can handle it either, but anyway
View media item 75026

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 24, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I know it hurts, but there goes
> Itachi's fans couldn't handle the truth for the past 15 years, so I don't think you can handle it either, but anyway
> View media item 75026





Lol what.

The link says error.


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## Trojan (Jun 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol what.
> 
> The link says error.


strange, it appears perfectly fine to me! 

Anyway, it's the page where itachi said that they (itachi and Kisame) can at best die with Jiraiya if they fought him. 
Or if you want to take the position that it's only about Jiraiya and itachi, then that also shows that they are on the same level.
Just like the case with Oro.

However, itachi's fans are extremely biased and disregard that statement, and believe that itachi is a tier or more stronger than Jiraiya. 

So all in all, what Oro's fans are doing is not different than what itachi's fans do.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2016)

Hussain said:


> strange, it appears perfectly fine to me!
> 
> Anyway, it's the page where itachi said that they (itachi and Kisame) can at best die with Jiraiya if they fought him.
> Or if you want to take the position that it's only about Jiraiya and itachi, then that also shows that they are on the same level.
> ...



agreed both are hilariously wrong 

However how is that different from what Jiriaya fans do ?

Or minato fans when they put a lot of effort into discrediting everything Tobirama did 

And come up with convenient excuses 

No fandom is actually less foolish or biased than the other 

Most are just less long winded than iza 

Turrin used to be just as long winded though


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## Sapherosth (Jun 24, 2016)

Hussain said:


> strange, it appears perfectly fine to me!
> 
> Anyway, it's the page where itachi said that they (itachi and Kisame) can at best die with Jiraiya if they fought him.
> Or if you want to take the position that it's only about Jiraiya and itachi, then that also shows that they are on the same level.
> ...





lol, thought so.


It's a shame that statement would've had some credibility if Kisame didn't start doubting Itachi's words right after they met Jiraiya. ck

Well, it would've lacked credibility in the first place considering Itachi was a lying bastard in part 1 and we know FOR A FACT that Itachi+Kisame would have fucked Jiraiya so hard. No one can deny that.

It's hilarious because Oro fans try to use it as a way to say that Jiraiya > Itachi, therefore Oro > Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> lol, thought so.
> 
> 
> It's a shame that statement would've had some credibility if Kisame didn't start doubting Itachi's words right after they met Jiraiya. ck
> ...



Funniest has got to be they are all sannin yet they have to be at the same level 

Then suddenly switch oro is the strongest based on a 20 year ago fight 

This thread is too cute . Both sides of the emotional arguments 

To be a dick minato >> either person discussed in this thread 

By achievements in the manga and relevance in war arc 

Just saying


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yeah this is my favorite thread, because the Itachi-fanboys have finally met their match





Hussain said:


> You basically do the same thing when the author told you that Jiraiya > Itachi.
> 
> So I don't see a reason to laugh at what he said when you do the exact same thing.



Its not the same thing for numerous reasons but probably the most important one is that the author never said it in the first place.



Icegaze said:


> Lol you are both hilarious
> 
> Him for being overtly emotional over a fictional character and you for being hilariously defensive
> 
> ...



I am ok with people disliking Itachi or the Itachi/Uchiha backstory in general, but pretending like it is anything more than personal bias to label certain parts of the manga about a character and try to use that as an argument is simply being retarded.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 24, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> I know. What I'm saying is that his hype in it's entirety was never accredited to just Susano'o alone. It was his abilities in general.


 Yeah I agree with this, I'm simply saying that his greatest "invincible" hype was accredited to it though.





> It's no secret the man's a hack, but whether or not he's biased doesn't really change what's presented in the actual story. It's his own story after all. He can do whatever the fuck he wants with it, even though he really,_ really_ shouldn't.


 Yeah he can, but that doesn't change the fact that he contradicts his own story at points.





> That's nice. He then proceeded to get curbstomped in less than a minute by a completely blind Itachi literally seconds away from death while he no longer sufferer dfrom rejection. Orochimaru didn't even know the full extent of Itachi's abilities and still called himself inferior. So again, no. It wasn't conditional. It was made painfully clear that there was a sizeable gap between them in Itachi's favor.


 He was curbstomped because he attacked him stupidly, and didn't bother to attack him in a more intelligent manner. Itachi's condition played part yes, but I don't believe that has much to do with whether Oro can defeat him or not. Even if by some chance Orochimaru wasn't suffering from rejection, his arms were still sealed so he was nerfed and was at a knowledge disadvantage.




> This is only an issue because you cling to the bold as if it was the gospel truth.


 That statement is the only comparison we have to determine the strength difference between Jiraiya and Itachi, and all it's telling us is that they're equal or Itachi is lesser. That's why I continue to use it because there is nothing else for us to go on to determine who is stronger.





> Orochimaru was established as being less talented than Sasuke (who Itachi was stronger than at the time), so even by your reasoning, Itachi>Orochimaru.
> 
> But yeah this is shoddy argumentation. Talent =/= strength. Sasuke was far more talented than Orochimaru yet weaker, and both Hiruzen in his prime and Tobirama are stronger than Orochimaru. Then there are those with no talent whatsoever being on par with in once in a generation geniuses.


 If you showcase more talent than someone else as a ninja, then that means once you reach your full potential that you will become stronger than them. Sasuke was more talented, but didn't fully realize that potential when he fought Orochimaru. I disagree, the way I see it Prime Orochimaru > Prime Hiruzen > Tobirama. The only way those with no talent end up being on par or surpassing geniuses is through some kind of acquired (usually external) power-up.





> He wasn't to be chosen over Minato. He was simply the original candidate. Minato's stronger than him, and the Hokage position isn't awarded based on strength alone to begin with, so this was never even an argument.


 The Hokage position is primarily chosen because of strength, so even though Orochimaru isn't stronger, his strength still must've been comparable.




> Don't need to say anything. That fact is readily apparent. It is also irrelevant because it doesn't change what's in the manga, and thus what we're actually debating, one iota.
> 
> 
> 
> 'Cept this flat out isn't true. Orochimaru wasn't portrayed as inferior when he got his arms and Edo Kage, and at no point before that was he portrayed as on par with or stronger than people superior to Itachi.


 I've addressed this earlier.




> Sure. But it wasn't this, but the whole Itachi>Orochimaru thing that indicated superiority. This just highlighted than him running was due to more than meets the eye.


 We're starting to go in circles.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats your opinion. A shitty one at that.
> 
> From my point of view Itachi parts are the best written parts.
> 
> You are a moron if you think what you just said is universally applicable and can be used as an excuse or an argument.


 Some of it is, but the Sharingan Ex Machinas, plot devices, and asspulls are factually true. I don't really care if you think I am a moron, I could easily say the same about you.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Some of it is, but the Sharingan Ex Machinas, plot devices, and asspulls are factually true.


Like I said, it is your* opinion.* There are bigger asspulls and plot devices through out the rest of the manga.



> I don't really care if you think I am a moron, I could easily say the same about you.



No you couldn't. Because I never called the author biased.
It is Kishimoto's manga. His interpretation is manga's reality.
Just because you didn't like some parts doesn't give you the right to dismiss them, or claim that they are less credible than the parts that you liked.

Blue is a better color than purple because I like it more. Prove me wrong.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That's basically what I meant, when it comes to Itachi and the Uchiha in general the writing starts getting shitty and illogical with the introduction of deus ex machinas, plot devices, and just flat-out asspulls so that the story can continue to move along under the influence of the Uchiha. It's one of the many reasons the series got the nickname "Uchiha Shippuden".


I could simply say that you're being biased against the Uchiha and that's why your viewing the anime in this light. However, that's another conversation for another day. My point was that simply because you view certain parts of the manga as more "logical" than others doesn't really mean that others have to as well. The whole point of this BattleDome is for people to argue their ideas and opinions against other's ideas and opinions. When there's a fixed set of what's "logical" and what's not in the manga, the BattleDome has lost all its meaning.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 24, 2016)

And when people like Izaya claim that there's no such thing as having an opinion in this manga, it's really just so ridiculous and hypocritical. He wants us to believe that all Naruto match ups are covered in the manga. Everything is fixed, and you can't argue otherwise. If someone wants to believe that Itachi would beat Jiraiya, then they're biased towards Itachi. He acts like some prophet who came to enlighten the BattleDome. Anyone here have any subjective thoughts about this manga? Well you can stop, because Izaya the prophet is here and everything is given to us in the manga which he read from beginning to end with a completely open mind. Every match up must be approached objectively. HIS ranking is flawless. If you disagree with him, you're just biased because his word is the word of the manga. You need to get with it and change your ranking to match his because he's authorized by Kishimoto himself.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Creative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 26, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, it is your* opinion.* There are bigger asspulls and plot devices through out the rest of the manga.


 Doesn't change the fact that with Itachi they're the worst. 





> No you couldn't. Because I never called the author biased.
> It is Kishimoto's manga. His interpretation is manga's reality.
> Just because you didn't like some parts doesn't give you the right to dismiss them, or claim that they are less credible than the parts that you liked.
> 
> Blue is a better color than purple because I like it more. Prove me wrong.


 It has nothing to do with what I like more, it has to do with what Kishi himself established. If you cannot comprehend that, then stop replying because you will never get it. You're too far gone to open your eyes. 



Equilibrium139 said:


> I could simply say that you're being biased against the Uchiha and that's why your viewing the anime in this light. However, that's another conversation for another day. My point was that simply because you view certain parts of the manga as more "logical" than others doesn't really mean that others have to as well. The whole point of this BattleDome is for people to argue their ideas and opinions against other's ideas and opinions. When there's a fixed set of what's "logical" and what's not in the manga, the BattleDome has lost all its meaning.


 They don't have to, which is why once we no longer agree and can't find a conclusion I end the argument because it becomes pointless.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> with Itachi they're the worst.


Thats your opinion.
There are bits that everyone likes or doesn't like, it holds no bearing over the validity of those said parts.



> It has nothing to do with what I like more,



Yes it does.



> with Itachi they're the worst.



Like I said, my argument regarding blue and purple is flawless. Blue is better because I like it more.


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## Itachі (Jun 26, 2016)

Edo Tensei? Edo Tensei.


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## WaZooF61950 (Jun 27, 2016)

On my opinion, Itachi would win, that's why Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's Body rather than IItachi's. Because he was too difficult.


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## WaZooF61950 (Jun 27, 2016)

VS

Reactions: Like 1


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## WaZooF61950 (Jun 27, 2016)

VS

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> strange, it appears perfectly fine to me!
> 
> Anyway, it's the page where itachi said that they (itachi and Kisame) can at best die with Jiraiya if they fought him.
> Or if you want to take the position that it's only about Jiraiya and itachi, then that also shows that they are on the same level.
> ...


To be fair, as I explained before, i never denied the fact Nerfed Orochimaru < Itachi

Orochimaru just happened to be prime when he was
> Jiraiya/Tobirama (who both are > Itachi)
comparable to Prime Hiruzen/Base Minato (who are both > Itachi)
and just happened to have some form of handicap when he was portrayed below Itachi. I am not disregarding any of the statements. I am not the type to ignore canon. I just dont see the point in it.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, it is your* opinion.* There are bigger asspulls and plot devices through out the rest of the manga.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Okay so then Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru when you take everything into account. Concession accepted.




			
				Grimmjowsensei said:
			
		

> Orochimaru was established as being less talented than Sasuke (who Itachi was stronger than at the time), so even by your reasoning, Itachi>Orochimaru



Like i said, its tit for tat

Chapter 345: (Sasuke) "all your jutsu are useless before these eyes" / the talent statements

Later on in War Arc
Chapter 593: (Sasuke) your the one underestimating Orochimaru / (Suigetsu) you only defeated him because his arms were sealed due to Shiki Fuujin / (Itachi) oh so your dr snakes are you now - then Sasuke replies, I had to do my researh on snakes to beat Orochimaru (a nerfed version by the way, a horribly nerfed version)

after Deidara fight
(karin) you loser, your event the guy who brought down Orochimaru
(Sasuke) Orochimaru was already weakened, thats all it was

The problem with Itachi fans is this - they are selective of what parts of the manga they want to apply. They take all the NERFED Orochimaru < itachi/sasuke statements and make it seem as if they are better than him overall, when in other parts of the manga,PRIME Orochimaru was portrayed above them.

At the end of the day, lets just agree to disagree. Itachi fans are impossible to have a debate with. E.g. @Sapherosth said Prime Orochimaru was fanfic (despite us seeing him fight hiruzen in pt.1, but then again, he never read the manga) yet went on to state blatantly that Susanoo covers the bottom too, as if Itahci has the same legged V3 that Madara showed.

We won this thread just like we won this thread  and this thread  .

I hav constructed perfect short essays as to how Prime Orochimaru beats Healthy Itachi in a High Difficulty fight using the abilities and feats he has shown in the manga, and I have dictated overall his superiority through uncovering this misconceptions in the hype and portrayal, basically showing that Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru

If i can't get you to accept this, what can I do. 70% of Itachi fans do not think Itachi has the capacity to lose a battle to any ninja, not even one stronger than the Jiraiya he ran away from (the same jiraiya they try to put itachi above)


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## kageturk (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Okay so then Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru when you take everything into account. Concession accepted.



This is gold.

Grimmjowsensei annihilates your arguments and you act like an 11 year old.

If it makes you feel any better, my favorite character in Naruto is Orochimaru, by far, and I happen to believe Itachi would still take it. I've known Grimmjowsensei for 20 years now, I've always had the same assessment. It's just logic due to evidence.

Agreeing with empirical evidence is not the same as abandoning your favorite character. Many characters are beloved just because of their limitations, not due to lack of it.


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## ARGUS (Jul 2, 2016)

Can't believe this thread has gone this long.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

kageturk said:


> This is gold.
> 
> Grimmjowsensei annihilates your arguments and you act like an 11 year old.


He did not annihilate my argument. He (or any of the Itachi fanboys) never read let alone countered any of my essays.



> If it makes you feel any better, my favorite character in Naruto is Orochimaru, by far, and I happen to believe Itachi would still take it.


So?

You act as if im saying Orochimaru wins because hes my favourite character. I dont care if Orochimaru was my most hated character. I never let my opinion of character affect my judgement of strength, unlike Itachi fans.



> I've known Grimmjowsensei for 20 years now, I've always had the same assessment. It's just logic due to evidence.
> 
> Agreeing with empirical evidence is not the same as abandoning your favorite character. Many characters are beloved just because of their limitations, not due to lack of it.


I dont see what you mean here? Could you explain this to me?

Either way, it doesnt matter. Ive already won this debate, I and @HandfullofNaruto so just leave it in the past.

And also, you act as if I am brain dead.

@HandfullofNaruto used to think Itachi > Prime Orochimaru. He read my original essay, still disagreed with 60% of it, debated it with me (rather than have a mudslinging match) and now he agrees that Prime Orochimaru > Itachi, as was shown in the manga by portrayal and feats/abilities.

@Isaiah13000 used to think Itachi was stronger. He doesnt anymore after reading a post i made.

@LAZLOLAZZING also used to think Itachi was stronger. He read through my recent essays and now he has changed.

@PhantomSage, an Itachi fan who initially said "Itachi wrecks Oro", now agrees with my side after having read my more recent essays and stuff.

So I am not crazy. You can choose to believe what you want and thats fine. I only believe what I see in the manga. And the manga displayed Prime Orochimaru > Itachi > Nerfed Orochimaru in a way even 10 year olds should understand. If you feel Itachi is unbeatable, fine. Honestly its fine. I just prefer facts over feelings, thats all. Im retiring from NBD soon and me proving my argument even to one person (who isnt a Sannin hater or an Itachi fanboy) is enough for me. But instead ive proved it to 4 people. And regardless, I know the truth, and that matters more thab anything. These are fictional characters at the end of the day so if Itachi > Kaguya it wont affect my life anyway.

And besides, 3 of those 4 people, Itachi fanboy or not, read my essay. Icegaze and Grimmjow dont even respond to arguments nor does Sapherosth and Sapherosth and Icegaze use fanfiction and they get away with it. Cos everyone here wanks Itachi, they are allowed to get away with it cos of majority opinion and all that, yet i am criticized just for using the manga to support my arguments, which is absurd. People will keep their mouths shut and turn a blind eye to misconceptions because they like Itachi. Itachi is the character it happens most with, but not the only one. And Orochimaru is not the only character who is downplayed. I could come up with examples where Tsunade is concerned but i wont bore you all day long. Ive said what i needed to say.

You say I act like an 11 year old, when in fact it is your friend who you know for 20 years that is doing so.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Useful 1


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## Parallaxis (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> He did not annihilate my argument. He (or any of the Itachi fanboys) never read let alone countered any of my essays.
> 
> 
> So?
> ...


I think its because Itachi has beaten Oro(not in his prime) many times before, so most people assume itachi would win, but if you start looking at most of the facts orochimaru probably would win this.


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## Parallaxis (Jul 2, 2016)

WaZooF61950 said:


> VS


...


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I think its because Itachi has beaten Oro(not in his prime) many times before, so most people assume itachi would win, but if you start looking at most of the facts orochimaru probably would win this.


I literally just discussed this with @HandfullofNaruto. Like right now. They act as if in the manga its impossible for Orochimaru to win. This is a theoretical battle discussed in the NBD. Prime Orochimaru vs Itachi never happened in the manga so i dont see why people are clinging to Itachi > Sick + No Killing Intent Orochimaru / Nerfed Sick Part 2 Orochimaru with only half his jutsus and using it as an excuse to put Itachi above Prime Orochimaru (who was compared to *four *of Itachi's superiors - Jiraiya, Minato, Tobirama and Prime Hiruzen). Its just stupid. And when discussing feats (let me quote HandfullofNaruto) it is pretty obvious Prime Orochimaru is painfully above Itachi.

Genjutsu: stay out of range with boss summons or use Edo Tensei for partner method. Go underground to avoid Genjutsu crows or just kill the fucking bird. Itachi isnt the one summoning Manda like Hebi Sasuke, so scrap the Genjutsu blitz argument please. He will not get the range to make eye contact.
Tsukuyomi: stay out of range or regenerate a fresh body with no ailments after the jutsu is over
Amaterasu: same, stay away or use Oral Rebirth as per canon
Susanoo/Yata Defence: go underground (Edo Hashirama Mokuton // Leech All Creation + Extending Kusanagi // Manda stays underground and jams his tail under Susanoo) to bypass the defences.
Susano/Totsuka Offence: Manda has the speed to dodge (he is bigger and stronger than Yamata so get over that rather than twist the DB and make up lies) a sword which is big enough only to pierce a human chest (a human is smaller than Manda's eyeball so you can grasp the concept of size differences)
I dont know how much more simpler I can put it. Prime Orochimaru > Itachi. Itachi beat/was stated to superior to Nerfed Forms of Orochimaru who for what ever reason (be it lack of killing intent or sealed arms) could not weave the hand seals (due to sealed arms or due to wanting to take over Itachis body and not kill him) for Kuchiyose, the most useful weapon he had against Itachi logically (Manda and/or Edo Tensei) so how does it not make sense.

If Prime Orochimaru (Part 1 Oro for anyone who is confused, not War Arc, thats just overkill) is comparable to Minato/Prime Hiruzen and stronger than Tobirama/Jiraiya, then how is Itachi beating him.

Besides twisting the DB where Yamata is concerned, the other argument is that Itachi beat Kabuto so beats Orochimaru. First of all, lets ignore the fact he was in an immortal body with limitless stamina so suffering no drawbacks from MS and had fucking EMS Sasuke as a teammate, but aside that, Kabuto was fighting in a cave so did not have Manda, and his Edos were on the war battlefield (those
being the abilities Orochimaru would use to beat Itachi), so in that particular context, Orochimaru and Kabuto are not the same fighter. They are similar in some aspects but not the same. Thats like saying someone beats Minato because they can beat Tobirama.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 2, 2016)

*I'm not going to organize my responses anymore. Ill just say what's on my mind because that's the only type of responses we've seen. So here, unorganized information that may or may not be applicable:*

In the manga.
Not in a single chapter is
Orochimaru > Itachi. I feel as though people are misinterpreting our argument. We don't want to argue how Orochimaru was stronger than Itachi _in the manga_. We never got to see it. Each time Orochimaru & Itachi saw each other it was under some _heavy circumstances. There was never a normal battle between the the two._

Fight #1: Orochimaru is in a _failing body_ and needed to acquire a new younger body (Itachi was his first choice). As we've seen Orochimaru is _weakened when he needs a new body_. He also _could not hurt Itachi_ since he planned to take over his body.

So the first "fight" was:
Sick + No killing intent Orochi
VS
Possible killing intent + Healthy Uchiha.

Fight #2.
Orochimaru is forced to use Hydra which Itachi's Susanoo will always defeat. Hydra vs Susanoo is bent because Susanoo always defeats Hydra the same way Manda > Gammabunta because Snakes > Toads.

Though @IzayaOrihara's comparison of
Orochimaru, Tobirama & Minato is completely valid.
The fact Minato & Tobirama can be put above Itachi yet compared to Orochimaru, it's not a huge stretch to say that in his prime with both arms Orochimaru is constantly compared to Itachis superiors (Hiruzen/Minato/Tobirama). If you add on the fact that when compared to Itachi, Orochimaru was always "Nerfed" it starts to make sense. So Orochimaru being on equal footing with Hokage and Itachi not being on equal footing with the Hokage is one way Orochimaru > Itachi. So through portrayal
Orochimaru > Itachi.

When it comes to hype
(which is useless.) Itachi wins. He was hyped the fuck up by Kishi. So hyped in fact, he let him _try_ to kill Orochimaru _twice_.

That is one small part of our argument though. We're considering actual feats that have been shown in the manga. We aren't using hype & portrayal as our main argument, though we don't want to disregard them just because it makes our side that much stronger.

When looking at feats alone it's painfully obvious Orochimaru > Itachi. If Itachi & Orochimaru were battling like a Pokemon game, yes Itachi could win. Genjutsu/Tsukyomi would one-shot Orochimaru. This isn't a Pokemon style battle though.

Orochimaru can avoid eye contact.
He can use summons.
He can press (run) if he really wants to lol.

My point is Itachi only has Hype.

Orochimaru has feats + portrayal.

I guess this is where you get an opinion:
Feats + Portrayal > Hype.

I won't be surprised if an Itachi supporter says
Hype > Feats + Portrayal.

For the record I stopped paying attention at the beginning of pg. 5 of this thread. So I apologize if I'm missing anything major, I highly highly highly highly doubt it though.


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Fight #1: Orochimaru is in a _failing body_ and needed to acquire a new younger body (Itachi was his first choice). As we've seen Orochimaru is _weakened when he needs a new body_. He also _could not hurt Itachi_ since he planned to take over his body.
> 
> So the first "fight" was:
> Sick + No killing intent Orochi
> ...



When was it stated that Orochimaru was weakened? He may have just wanted to become a lot stronger by taking Itachi's eyes, nothing suggests he had to take a body apart from speculation. Orochimaru actually wanted Itachi's body, there was no indication that Orochimaru was sick. Itachi was also like 14 or something and he would have gotten stronger.



> Fight #2.
> Orochimaru is forced to use Hydra which Itachi's Susanoo will always defeat. Hydra vs Susanoo is bent because Susanoo always defeats Hydra the same way Manda > Gammabunta because Snakes > Toads.



But Orochimaru was also actually there? He had full use of his techniques. Hydra was described as Orochimaru's strongest technique, too. Also, you mention that Orochimaru was sick in the first fight when there's nothing to suggest that while you don't mention that Itachi was literally dying in this fight.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When was it stated that Orochimaru was weakened? He may have just wanted to become a lot stronger by taking Itachi's eyes, nothing suggests he had to take a body apart from speculation. Orochimaru actually wanted Itachi's body, there was no indication that Orochimaru was sick. Itachi was also like 14 or something and he would have gotten stronger.
> 
> 
> 
> But Orochimaru was also actually there? He had full use of his techniques. Hydra was described as Orochimaru's strongest technique, too. Also, you mention that Orochimaru was sick in the first fight when there's nothing to suggest that while you don't mention that Itachi was literally dying in this fight.



It doesnt matter anyway. He was trying to take Itachis body and not fight him. Thats the point.

So what? Edo Tensei got hyped in the war arc as the worlds strongest jutsu. And Manda (who is a summon not a technique) is much much much better than Yamata (which Orochimaru cant use when he has sealed arms as he cant make the hand seals)

You people act as if this is a manga fight. Prime Orochimaru vs Healthy Itachi (all out proper fight with killing intent) never happened in the manga. So you saying "Itachi already beat Orochimaru twice" (which is what you and many others have repeated in history) is just stupid.

And yes, Orochimaru very well may have been sick. We dont know when he got his first body as the timeline was fucked up by Kishi, but regardless it doesnt matter. In the Uchiha Hideout fight he was sick though. Logically he should have been as he was sick before then and never got a new body until the War Arc.

EDIT: He did not have full use of his jutsu you fool. Stop being intellecutally dishonest for the sake of Itachi. Orochimaru got his arms back in the war arc. Until then he could not use hand-seal requiring jutsu like Edo Tensei, Kuchiyose (which gives him access to Manda, his most useful weapon against Itachi alongside Edo Tensei, gives him access to San Kyodaija, Aoda etc), Kanashibari no Jutsu, Gogyo Fuin, Curse Mark etc etc. All he had was jutsu that dont require seals cos he was in a new body at start of part two. So stop making up lies.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When was it stated that Orochimaru was weakened? He may have just wanted to become a lot stronger by taking Itachi's eyes, nothing suggests he had to take a body apart from speculation. Orochimaru actually wanted Itachi's body, there was no indication that Orochimaru was sick. Itachi was also like 14 or something and he would have gotten stronger.



If Orochimaru could just take a body what was stopping him from taking Sasukes in part 1. I'm pretty sure Jiraiya says that it takes three years before Orochimaru can switch bodies. Otherwise he would have taken Sasukes while he was still young right? Getting stronger with MS? Don't you just grow blind as you continue to use it? Maybe improving his regular skills but unless we have actual proof of that we should just go by feats. 



> But Orochimaru was also actually there? He had full use of his techniques. Also, you mention that Orochimaru was sick in the first fight when there's nothing to suggest that while you don't mention that Itachi was literally dying in this fight.


 Whether he's dying or not, he was maintaining his Susanoo. Susanoo will always defeat Hydra. There is no proof Orochimaru had access to all of his techniques. If your assuming that because he started in hydra or because the patterns on his arms disappeared all I can tell you is: PIS/CIS.

I don't understand how Sasuke absorbs part of a weakened Orochimaru and while inside Sasuke, Orochimaru grows stronger, reverses the shiki fujin & ultimately preps ET. Hydra is a terrible choice for facing Itachi. Susanoo will always win. 

So to sum up:
Yes he was sick.
PIS/CIS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 2, 2016)

I never thought I'd get the chance to debate 
Orochimaru > Itachi 
with Itachi lol.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> It doesnt matter anyway. He was trying to take Itachis body and not fight him. Thats the point.
> 
> So what? Edo Tensei got hyped in the war arc as the worlds strongest jutsu. And Manda (who is a summon not a technique) is much much much better than Yamata (which Orochimaru cant use when he has sealed arms as he cant make the hand seals)
> 
> ...



Erm, that's like me saying Itachi was blind when he first fought Itachi, you saying no he wasn't, then me saying it doesn't matter. Orochimaru was only trying to take Itachi's body though, that much is true.

Not once have I mentioned that Itachi beat Orochimaru in a completely neutral fight, keep your bullshit to yourself. Though it doesn't change that I think Itachi still handily defeats him when Orochimaru doesn't have Edo Tensei.

What do you mean so what? Point is that Orochimaru was not disadvantaged very much at all in his second fight with Itachi, he did only still want to take his body but Itachi was near blind and actually dying painfully.

How could a sick Orochimaru even use Hydra? It doesn't make sense.


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## kageturk (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> It doesnt matter anyway. He was trying to take Itachis body and not fight him. Thats the point.
> 
> So what? Edo Tensei got hyped in the war arc as the worlds strongest jutsu. And Manda (who is a summon not a technique) is much much much better than Yamata (which Orochimaru cant use when he has sealed arms as he cant make the hand seals)
> 
> ...



Your typos reveal your rage. Even though I'm sadistically enjoying them, time to end this debate irrefutably, so your rage can smolder in this thread's grave instead. This """"""Prime"""""" Orochimaru has not, not even once, been a viable threat to Itachi, a 17 year old boy during the first or second manga.

*There is not a single instance in the manga, not one little panel or off-panel implication that you can post here as evidence, that supports your claim that Orochimaru was anything otherwise.
*
If you think such evidence exists, other than your imaginary mind space of fanfic, please go ahead and show us.

Until then, rest in peace, argument.

P.S. Unlike the shill above me, my favorite character is Orochimaru, so don't play the Itachi fanboy card.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

Hes just a fool. He thinks Orochimaru was gonna take Itachis eyes when

He specifically stated to Kakashi he didnt want the fake, he wanted to be in the body
He was the one who gave Danzo his right arn
It is clear he is just reaching now


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If Orochimaru could just take a body what was stopping him from taking Sasukes in part 1. I'm pretty sure Jiraiya says that it takes three years before Orochimaru can switch bodies. Otherwise he would have taken Sasukes while he was still young right? Getting stronger with MS? Don't you just grow blind as you continue to use it? Maybe improving his regular skills but unless we have actual proof of that we should just go by feats.
> 
> Whether he's dying or not, he was maintaining his Susanoo. Susanoo will always defeat Hydra. There is no proof Orochimaru had access to all of his techniques. If your assuming that because he started in hydra or because the patterns on his arms disappeared all I can tell you is: PIS/CIS.
> 
> ...



Nah, he can't take a body whenever he wants but there's nothing to suggest that Orochimaru was actually ill. No, Itachi could have refined his skills. I know that Itachi was wise beyond his years but 14/15 year old Itachi is going to be less skilled than 21 year old Itachi. If you want to go by feats then it's clear that 21 year old Itachi is more powerful, since 14/15 year old Itachi never displayed the ability to use Amaterasu or Susano'o as well as Itachi's other moves.

Orochimaru was fucking using Hydra, apparently his strongest technique. You think he'd be able to use that while sick? And 'PIS' is just an extremely poor and very convenient excuse.

Saying that Susano'o will always win as an argument for Orochimaru is like me saying that Itachi with a Kunai vs Orochimaru is unfair because Orochimaru will take no damage and always win. Frankly, you seem to be making all the excuses for Orochimaru here.


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Hes just a fool. He thinks Orochimaru was gonna take Itachis eyes when
> 
> He specifically stated to Kakashi he didnt want the fake, he wanted to be in the body
> He was the one who gave Danzo his right arn
> It is clear he is just reaching now


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


>


Laugh if you want to. Your reaching is so sad


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Nah, he can't take a body whenever he wants but there's nothing to suggest that Orochimaru was actually ill. No, Itachi could have refined his skills. I know that Itachi was wise beyond his years but 14/15 year old Itachi is going to be less skilled than 21 year old Itachi. If you want to go by feats then it's clear that 21 year old Itachi is more powerful, since 14/15 year old Itachi never displayed the ability to use Amaterasu or Susano'o as well as Itachi's other moves.
> 
> Orochimaru was fucking using Hydra, apparently his strongest technique. You think he'd be able to use that while sick? And 'PIS' is just an extremely poor and very convenient excuse.
> 
> Saying that Susano'o will always win as an argument for Orochimaru is like me saying that Itachi with a Kunai vs Orochimaru is unfair because Orochimaru will take no damage and always win. Frankly, you seem to be making all the excuses for Orochimaru here.



You are saying Orochimaru had access to all his techniques which is false.

Who said he cant use Yamata when he is sick? He used Fushi Tensei when he was sick. Yamata is a jutsu which "brings the user back from deaths that one cant escape" or something like that. Why can he not use it when he is sick. It being his strongest technique doesnt matter and I have every right to say it isnt true as in the war arc Kabuto stated Edo Tensei was the best jutsu in the world and he had knowlegde on Orochimaru's arsenal


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Laugh if you want to. Your reaching is so sad


You think you can fucking laugh like what I said wasnt true. You stated a false fact and I used two manga facts to dismiss it and you laugh in my face? I should just put people of your intelligence level on block list. You dare laugh at me? 

And to believe you said I am making excuses for Orochimaru. So, that means you think Nerfed Orochimaru = Prime Orochimaru? Okay, you can go on ignore list now. Had enough of scum like you.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto just put that guy on block list. Dont let him waste anymore of your time. He hasnt evem read the manga before coming on NF. All people ever do is make up stuff to bring Orochimaru down. People do it to Tsunade as well. Yet when people use fanfic for Itachi others just turn a blind eye.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Nah, he can't take a body whenever he wants but there's nothing to suggest that Orochimaru was actually ill. No, Itachi could have refined his skills. I know that Itachi was wise beyond his years but 14/15 year old Itachi is going to be less skilled than 21 year old Itachi. If you want to go by feats then it's clear that 21 year old Itachi is more powerful, since 14/15 year old Itachi never displayed the ability to use Amaterasu or Susano'o as well as Itachi's other moves.



Itachis MS comes with those abilities. I'm not saying he didn't have to learn them but I don't believe he practiced with it. MS makes you go blind really quick. Sasuke, the first time he used Susanoo was experiencing pain all over his body. He was going blind by the second.

"As well as Itachis other moves." Shuriken/Katon/Suiton?



> Orochimaru was fucking using Hydra, apparently his strongest technique.



Apparently won't cut it. It's not his strongest when facing Itachi. It has no use when facing Itachi.



> You think he'd be able to use that while sick? And 'PIS' is just an extremely poor and very convenient excuse.


 Yes, he should be able to use it while sick. If you're saying while inside Sasuke Orochimaru was able to undo the Shiki Fujin, prep ET & get a new body then no he probably can't use it while sick. As far as I'm concerned though. Absorb a sick Oro, release a sick Oro. Unless you have proof don't make such assumptions.



> Saying that Susano'o will always win as an argument for Orochimaru is like me saying that Itachi with a Kunai vs Orochimaru is unfair because Orochimaru will take no damage and always win. Frankly, you seem to be making all the excuses for Orochimaru here.


 I say Susanoo wins because the same Japanese legend where Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad. Susanoo beats Hydra. Susanoo slays the eight headed serpent. Your whole kunai reference is just your lack of knowledge obviously.

Don't cherrypick my argument.
Orochimaru > Itachi when it comes to feats and portrayal.
Counter that or Concede


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What do you mean so what? Point is that Orochimaru was not disadvantaged very much at all in his second fight with Itachi,


He could not use fucking ninjutsu (ones requiring hand signs) which give him access to his best weapons.



> How could a sick Orochimaru even use Hydra? It doesn't make sense.


And why doesnt it make sense? Can Drugged Jiraiya not use Yomi Numa? Can Sick Itachi not use all his jutsu. Didnt Drunk Tsunade fight Naruto and Rusty Tsunade fight Kabuto? Didnt Sick Orochimaru fight KN4 Naruto and Pre-Hebi Sasuke?

What the actual fuck are you even talking about? 


kageturk said:


> Your typos reveal your rage. Even though I'm sadistically enjoying them, time to end this debate irrefutably, so your rage can smolder in this thread's grave instead. This """"""Prime"""""" Orochimaru has not, not even once, been a viable threat to Itachi, a 17 year old boy during the first or second manga.


You say that but
Orochimaru was compared to Minato/Prime Hiruzen and portrayed above Jiraiya/Tobirama and Itachi cant beat none of those people.


> *There is not a single instance in the manga, not one little panel or off-panel implication that you can post here as evidence, that supports your claim that Orochimaru was anything otherwise.
> *


*
Because of the timeline.mess
*


> If you think such evidence exists, other than your imaginary mind space of fanfic, please go ahead and show us.


It doesnr matter if he wasnt sick. He wasnt even fighting Itachi that 1st time.  He was trying to take his body



> P.S. Unlike the shill above me, my favorite character is Orochimaru, so don't play the Itachi fanboy card.


So what? Thats probably a lie anyway but even so, so what? Favourite character has nothing to do with my argument. Where Itachi fans are concerned its always feelings over facts

Reactions: Like 2


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Itachis MS comes with those abilities. I'm not saying he didn't have to learn them but I don't believe he practiced with it. MS makes you go blind really quick. Sasuke, the first time he used Susanoo was experiencing pain all over his body. He was going blind by the second.
> 
> "As well as Itachis other moves." Shuriken/Katon/Suiton?
> 
> ...


Exactly

He cant prove Itachi didnt have such abilities back then. In fact he said "on that night, a third ability rooted within my eyes" to Sasuke so yes he had them.

They think Orochimaru was healthy and had his arms, yet he went to get his arms back in the war arc and was sick when absorbed by Sasuke. They make up lies to bring Orochimaru, yet these 30 year old think they have the right to insult me rather than go and find some employment.

Yamata - I dont care if Itachi beat it. Its inferior to Manda by a huge margin, and.Manda is a summon not a jutsu so is not below Yamata in the BD. Also, ET got "strongest jutsu in the world" hype in the war arc, but of course @Itachi and Grimmjows friend will ignore that


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

Okay you know what, lets end this. This portrayal argument is over.

Tobirama/Jiraiya/Minato/Prime Hiruzen > Itachi and Orochimaru was compared to them. Itachi beating sick armless forms of Oro is irrelevant. Weve already proved our side of the argument. No need for you to make up facts and reach. Lets discuss only feats.

Tell me *how *Healthy *Itachi* *beats* Prime *Orochimaru*? Its 2AM in London so im going to bed now but ill be up soon and ill respond to your arguments.


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Don't cherrypick my argument.
> Orochimaru > Itachi when it comes to feats and portrayal.
> Counter that or Concede


They dont know how to answer to an argument in full. Dont even bother with them. Cherrypicking and reaching is all Itachi fans know. Theyve kept me up this.late and have had nothing of substance or factual/logic credibility to say. All they have said is "Orochimaru had all his jutsu against Itachi and wasnt trying to take his body" - facts we know are false.

@PhantomSage even knows Orochimaru > Itachi and when he first entered this debate he was wanking Itachi (no offence) so if even he has conceded, you know Itachi fans are just desperate now if they still wanna argue with me. Why cant you just concede when you have lost?

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 2, 2016)

Also notice nobody has ever said "Yeah your right.".

We concede if we're wrong. This is a debate. Exchange of logic. We aren't ignoring spots where were proven wrong. We accept it and move on. So far anyone replying to us just skips it. They quote small parts of our posts. Or they just quote the whole fucking thing lol.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 2, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Also notice nobody has ever said "Yeah your right.".
> 
> We concede if we're wrong. This is a debate. Exchange of logic. We aren't ignoring spots where were proven wrong. We accept it and move on. So far anyone replying to us just skips it. They quote small parts of our posts. Or they just quote the whole fucking thing lol.


Like me disproving Itachi's post and then he posted a gif of laughing. Its funny at the end of the day, but he just has no argument. Two Itachi fanboys and two biasless people have been able to believe my argument, yet he (and many others) is still reaching?


Anyway goodnight y'all!


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

izaya you may be the most retarded person i've ever talked to on this site 



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Itachis MS comes with those abilities. I'm not saying he didn't have to learn them but I don't believe he practiced with it. MS makes you go blind really quick. Sasuke, the first time he used Susanoo was experiencing pain all over his body. He was going blind by the second.



I'm not saying he trained his MS, he did use it though since he was very efficient with it when he fought Sasuke.



> "As well as Itachis other moves." Shuriken/Katon/Suiton?



Yes.



> Apparently won't cut it. It's not his strongest when facing Itachi. It has no use when facing Itachi.
> 
> Yes, he should be able to use it while sick. If you're saying while inside Sasuke Orochimaru was able to undo the Shiki Fujin, prep ET & get a new body then no he probably can't use it while sick. As far as I'm concerned though. Absorb a sick Oro, release a sick Oro. Unless you have proof don't make such assumptions.



How can Orochimaru use the Hydra if he has no arms with which to perform the Jutsu?



> I say Susanoo wins because the same Japanese legend where Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad. Susanoo beats Hydra. Susanoo slays the eight headed serpent. Your whole kunai reference is just your lack of knowledge obviously.
> 
> Don't cherrypick my argument.
> Orochimaru > Itachi when it comes to feats and portrayal.
> Counter that or Concede



Except Itachi isn't just Susano'o and Orochimaru isn't just Hydra. They both have their own techniques at their disposal. Anyway, I'm done here. It's clear that Izaya has somehow turned a former reasonable poster such as yourself into.. something else. I'm happy to debate with reasonable people and I have no problem with people thinking that Prime Oro > Itachi, I just don't find it pleasant when you're passive-aggressive and unreasonable. Pretty evident given that you have a million excuses for Orochimaru lined up and twist things to suit your narrative.


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Like me disproving Itachi's post and then he posted a gif of laughing. Its funny at the end of the day, but he just has no argument. Two Itachi fanboys and two biasless people have been able to believe my argument, yet he (and many others) is still reaching?
> 
> 
> Anyway goodnight y'all!



i legit said that orochimaru wanted itachi's body beforehand 

your autism never ceases to amuse me


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> izaya you may be the most retarded person i've ever talked to on this site  I'm not saying he trained his MS, he did use it though since he was very efficient with it when he fought Sasuke.


 Very Efficient?
Sasuke, when he used it for the first time can also be considered efficient. We never saw Itachi improve Amaterasus range, power, AOE.. We've seen him use it twice (alive/in battle) and both times were just regular shots of Ama I wouldn't consider it efficiently executed.



> Yes.


Ya, well those are almost useless.



> How can Orochimaru use the Hydra if he has no arms with which to perform the Jutsu?


 Good point. I'd assume the same way he uses the shirohebi form.



> Except Itachi isn't just Susano'o and Orochimaru isn't just Hydra.


 Exactly. 
Id also like to mention, Orochimaru isn't going to use Hydra. It'd be a lot smarter to use Manda & ET. They are definitely more useful.

Edit: When Susanoo sealed Hydra it might has well have been Itachi is only Susanoo and Orochimaru is only Hydra. Orochimaru couldn't do anything. Itachi was only able to use Susanoo because he was exhausted. Orochimaru was only able to use Hydra because PIS demanded Itachi look good. 

So my initial statement stands. 



> They both have their own techniques at their disposal. Anyway, I'm done here. It's clear that Izaya has somehow turned a former reasonable poster such as yourself into.. something else.


 Okay. Good day then.



> I'm happy to debate with reasonable people and I have no problem with people thinking that Prime Oro > Itachi, I just don't find it pleasant when you're passive-aggressive and unreasonable.


 Okay then. Good day.



> Pretty evident given that you have a million excuses for Orochimaru lined up and twist things to suit your narrative.


 So if manga feats and portrayal disprove your thoughts it becomes an excuse? Okay I see now.

Obviously neither of us are going to get anywhere with this debate. Your glass can be half empty or half full but when it's filled with nothing but shit it doesn't really matter now does it?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> izaya you may be the most retarded person i've ever talked to on this site





Itachі said:


> your autism never ceases to amuse me


I also don't appreciate your comments about @IzayaOrihara and especially the way you insult _my_ intelligence by saying Izaya has to think for me. After a simple analysis of the manga and several threads with the same battle, I was able to come to my own conclusion.

@IzayaOrihara and I discussed his original essay which I initially disagreed with. I figured his entire argument ran on A>B>C logic which I am not fond of on the battledome. We had a simple discussion and I realized it was nothing more than the icing on the cake. After several debates we came to an agreement. Prime Orochimaru beats Itachi Uchiha. He has better feats and portrayal. Itachis hype can't even save him from Yomi Numa (the only arguments that were close to valid were "Ninja Run" "Yata Surf" "Katon"). Anyway you don't need to be an ass. Izaya is making great points either address his argument or ignore him.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 3, 2016)




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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

This thread , and some of these Posts


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> izaya you may be the most retarded person i've ever talked to on this site


Forgive me but i don't appreciate you calling him a retard , you're both great posters , and it would upset me to see you 2 insulting each other , please don't .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I also don't appreciate your comments about @IzayaOrihara and especially the way you insult _my_ intelligence by saying Izaya has to think for me. After a simple analysis of the manga and several threads with the same battle, I was able to come to my own conclusion.
> 
> @IzayaOrihara and I discussed his original essay which I initially disagreed with. I figured his entire argument ran on A>B>C logic which I am not fond of on the battledome. We had a simple discussion and I realized it was nothing more than the icing on the cake. After several debates we came to an agreement. Prime Orochimaru beats Itachi Uchiha. He has better feats and portrayal. Itachis hype can't even save him from Yomi Numa (the only arguments that were close to valid were "Ninja Run" "Yata Surf" "Katon"). Anyway you don't need to be an ass. Izaya is making great points either address his argument or ignore him.





cctr9 said:


> Forgive me but i don't appreciate you calling him a retard , you're both great posters , and it would upset me to see you 2 insulting each other , please don't .



Maybe you should ask Izaya to be courteous in the first place then, instead of trying to bait at every turn. I never said that Izaya 'thinks for you'.


cctr9 said:


> Forgive me but i don't appreciate you calling him a retard , you're both great posters , and it would upset me to see you 2 insulting each other , please don't .



seriously?


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 3, 2016)

I'm tempted to comment, but I feel like I'd get the same responses and we'd just go in circles.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jul 3, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Can't believe this thread has gone this long.


I can.


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> seriously?


What are you LMAO'ing about ????


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Maybe you should ask Izaya to be courteous in the first place then, instead of trying to bait at every turn. I never said that Izaya 'thinks for you'.
> seriously?


 You said Izaya changed me. What the hell is that supposed to mean? @cctr9

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> You said Izaya changed me. What the hell is that supposed to mean? @cctr9 *Spoiler*:


Too much sugar , i might die of diabetes today !


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Too much sugar , i might die of diabetes today !

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

OMG


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2016)

WTF did this thread turn into?

Reactions: Funny 5


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> izaya you may be the most retarded person i've ever talked to on this site


Why do you say that?



> How can Orochimaru use the Hydra if he has no arms with which to perform the Jutsu?


Not all of Orochimaru's jutsu require hand seals. If they did, then how did he fight KN4 Naruto in part 2? Was it stated Yamata required hand seals or are you just reaching now?


Except Itachi isn't just Susano'o and Orochimaru isn't just Hydra. They both have their own techniques at their disposal. Anyway, I'm done here. It's clear that Izaya has somehow turned a former reasonable poster such as yourself into.. something else. I'm happy to debate with reasonable people and I have no problem with people thinking that Prime Oro > Itachi, I just don't find it pleasant when you're passive-aggressive and unreasonable. Pretty evident given that you have a million excuses for Orochimaru lined up and twist things to suit your narrative.[/QUOTE]



Itachі said:


> i legit said that orochimaru wanted itachi's body beforehand
> 
> your autism never ceases to amuse me


No, you stated Orochimaru was going to pluck his eyes out when it is evident he wanted to take over the body (he stated so against Kakashi, and otherwise, he would have used 10 sharingan rather than let Danzo have them)

Reported your insults by the way!!



HandfullofNaruto said:


> Very Efficient?
> Sasuke, when he used it for the first time can also be considered efficient. We never saw Itachi improve Amaterasus range, power, AOE.. We've seen him use it twice (alive/in battle) and both times were just regular shots of Ama I wouldn't consider it efficiently executed.
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. And that Amaterasu argument he used was just fanfic. Itachi doesn't have Enton. End of.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> I also don't appreciate your comments about @IzayaOrihara and especially the way you insult _my_ intelligence by saying Izaya has to think for me. After a simple analysis of the manga and several threads with the same battle, I was able to come to my own conclusion.


But he wouldn't know that cos he doesnt know how to have a debate. Itachi fans have to turn every thread into a mudslinging match. Shows how salty they are.

I just remember the debate we had over this topic @HandfullofNaruto. A fun debate full of logic and not full of any insults. I wish I could have more debates like that, and ive noticed, when I discussed Orochimaru in other threads, it was okay, but with Itachi fans, even when they are wrong they never stand down and concede. They just feel Itachi is incapable of losing to anyone.


> @IzayaOrihara and I discussed his original essay which I initially disagreed with. I figured his entire argument ran on A>B>C logic which I am not fond of on the battledome. We had a simple discussion and I realized it was nothing more than the icing on the cake. After several debates we came to an agreement. Prime Orochimaru beats Itachi Uchiha. He has better feats and portrayal. Itachis hype can't even save him from Yomi Numa (the only arguments that were close to valid were "Ninja Run" "Yata Surf" "Katon"). Anyway you don't need to be an ass. Izaya is making great points either address his argument or ignore him.


Exactly



cctr9 said:


> Forgive me but i don't appreciate you calling him a retard , you're both great posters , and it would upset me to see you 2 insulting each other , please don't .


He's a great poster? Unless the definition of a great poster is one who uses fanfictions to support their biased arguments. Not even argument. Just reaching.



Itachі said:


> Maybe you should ask Izaya to be courteous in the first place then, instead of trying to bait at every turn. I never said that Izaya 'thinks for you'.
> 
> 
> seriously?


When did I bait you? That's just a lie and another excuse to dodge our arguments like @Icegaze would do.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm tempted to comment, but I feel like I'd get the same responses and we'd just go in circles.


Lol, I asked him to tell me how Itachi beats Orochimaru. instead he just started talking about retards.



Hussain said:


> WTF did this thread turn into?


It turned into a mud-slinging match. Itachi fans do it any time their argument is weak. They throw insults around in the hope the thread will get locked because of it. Hasn't worked this time.

Anyway I have a private discussion where some people are discussing this topic. Anyone who has any queries, I'll just invite them there.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

*@ - I invited you to that conversation. We can discuss any further details of this fight there. I invited you as well @kageturk as you had a lot to say. As far as I'm concerned, no one else has anything of relevance/substance to contribute to this debate, so please, if the moderators (e.g. @Kai) want to, they can lock this thread. Nothing more to see here. @HandfullofNaruto and I won this debate and even convinced our argument to two Itachi fans (@PhantomSage / @LAZLOLAZZING) and two other posters who carry no bias for Itachi/against the Sannin (@Isaiah13000 / @cctr9) so what else is there to say? @Sapherosth I can see you're reading this thread and you're probably post something silly, but please, just don't bother. This debate is over. @IzayaOrihara and @HandfullofNaruto won due to convincing 4 people who carry no bias for Itachi, and for substantiating our debates the best and responding to every argument we saw (and the Itachiites were not able to do the same in return to us) so Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi Uchiha and "Prime Orochimaru" beats "Healthy Itachi" in a High-Difficulty Fight in a neutral battle scenario. There is nothing left to say. This debate is over. Itachi fans resurfaced but all they managed to say was Orochimaru had the soul of his arms back before the War Arc and was not trying to take Itachi's body 10 years ago when he left Akatsuki. Both arguments were false to the core (the basis of said arguments were incorrect) so now all Itachi fans can do is reach. Let's just end the debate on a high note, respectfully, and move on with out lives instead of being stuck in the mud having a mud-slinging match. We will not get anywhere by doing that.  Itachi fans can only argue, and not debate. Its is impossible to debate with them as such, and therefore, I am ending this thread here and now. @Kai please come and lock. Otherwise good posters are just gonna end up getting banned for insulting one another. I have proved my argument successfully so let's just accept it and either concede to me, or agree to disagree (the latter of which y'all will do even when my argument has the manga backing it up and Itachi fans do not). Prime Orochimaru > Healthy Itachi + beats him High-Diff. Let's end this now on a high note, respectfully, rather than going round and round in circles like @Isaiah13000 has stated prior to this post.*


*Spoiler*: _After HandfullofNaruto and myself, the next two top contributors to this thread were the people who were using the most fanfic to support Itachi, and were also the ones casting the most insults, so it is clear that there is no debate for Itachi anymore, only desperate reaching, as was displayed by two other Itachi-supporters in their posts in this thread made yesterday_ 




*

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*

Reactions: Winner 6


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## Sapherosth (Jul 3, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Why do you say that?
> 
> 
> Not all of Orochimaru's jutsu require hand seals. If they did, then how did he fight KN4 Naruto in part 2? Was it stated Yamata required hand seals or are you just reaching now?
> ...




No, you stated Orochimaru was going to pluck his eyes out when it is evident he wanted to take over the body (he stated so against Kakashi, and otherwise, he would have used 10 sharingan rather than let Danzo have them)

Reported your insults by the way!!


Exactly. And that Amaterasu argument he used was just fanfic. Itachi doesn't have Enton. End of.


But he wouldn't know that cos he doesnt know how to have a debate. Itachi fans have to turn every thread into a mudslinging match. Shows how salty they are.

I just remember the debate we had over this topic @HandfullofNaruto. A fun debate full of logic and not full of any insults. I wish I could have more debates like that, and ive noticed, when I discussed Orochimaru in other threads, it was okay, but with Itachi fans, even when they are wrong they never stand down and concede. They just feel Itachi is incapable of losing to anyone.

Exactly


He's a great poster? Unless the definition of a great poster is one who uses fanfictions to support their biased arguments. Not even argument. Just reaching.


When did I bait you? That's just a lie and another excuse to dodge our arguments like @Icegaze would do.


Lol, I asked him to tell me how Itachi beats Orochimaru. instead he just started talking about retards.


It turned into a mud-slinging match. Itachi fans do it any time their argument is weak. They throw insults around in the hope the thread will get locked because of it. Hasn't worked this time.

Anyway I have a private discussion where some people are discussing this topic. Anyone who has any queries, I'll just invite them there.[/QUOTE]


You're not really discussing anything. You're just preaching, acting as if you're the fucking messiah. 

We have you LOGICAL explanations as well as Manga panels, hype, portrayal and all other factors. All you did was say "Shut the fuck up, go read my 100 page essay" and disregard ALL posts against Orochimaru, acting as if YOUR opinion is the ONLY one that is right, despite many people saying otherwise. 

Your posts are just full of bias shit, end of story.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 3, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *@ - I invited you to that conversation. We can discuss any further details of this fight there. I invited you as well @kageturk as you had a lot to say. As far as I'm concerned, no one else has anything of relevance/substance to contribute to this debate, so please, if the moderators (e.g. @Kai) want to, they can lock this thread. Nothing more to see here. @HandfullofNaruto and I won this debate and even convinced our argument to two Itachi fans (@PhantomSage / @LAZLOLAZZING) and two other posters who carry no bias for Itachi/against the Sannin (@Isaiah13000 / @cctr9) so what else is there to say? @Sapherosth I can see you're reading this thread and you're probably post something silly, but please, just don't bother. This debate is over. @IzayaOrihara and @HandfullofNaruto won due to convincing 4 people who carry no bias for Itachi, and for substantiating our debates the best and responding to every argument we saw (and the Itachiites were not able to do the same in return to us) so Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi Uchiha and "Prime Orochimaru" beats "Healthy Itachi" in a High-Difficulty Fight in a neutral battle scenario.​*





This is just hilarious. I am sure you didn't convince anyone. They already had their opinions, and they've just simply ride the wave along. You say that you've won the debate because you've managed to "convince" none bias posters who hold no bias for Itachi/Against Sannin?  What if they're PRO Sannin? 

Your argument is just getting worse by the minute.


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2016)

Not sure why I am still being tagged by a dupe 
Mods must be having a laugh at this thread 
Manga made this shit clear already 
Would be as silly as doing a hashirama vs Madara thread all over again


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

classic izaya

never change

Reactions: Funny 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

No i will never change. I will debate using the manga and if you cant counter my argument then that is a concession. I dont see what needs to change. All you use in your arguments is fan fictions and make up lies to bring Orochimaru down to Itachi's level. You havent read any of my essays and have responded to none of my arguments. You have proved none of your points and your overall debating skill is weak. Yet you somehow think you have won the argument? Honestly, @Kai come and lock this.


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

Where's @CM Pope when you need him ???

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

Im just happy that he has time to screenshot my posts and bring it here. Shows im really that important to him and he has too much spare time on his hands. @Itachi you need to learn that "that was bullshit" is not a valid response to a manga-supported argument. If you cannot take the time the time to read the essay or the time to respond to my posts, then I guess thats a concession. Its up to you to prove your side of the argument. You act as if I should argue for Itachi and Orochimaru at the same time because you are just lazy and unintelligent.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 3, 2016)

Izaya, are you really gonna be a sensitive pussy like that when one person insults you yet you've insulted multiple people on this forum countless times? If someone reported you for everytime you insulted them you'd have been permanently banned by now. And also don't put on this fake act @HandfullofNaruto. You were insulting me in our private convo as well, calling me a "dildo" and such. Honestly, the hypocrisy has just gone to a new level. How long will you guys keep playing this victim card?

Reactions: Like 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

@Kai lock this please before I insult that guy so hard that I get banned again.


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Im just happy that he has time to screenshot my posts and bring it here. Shows im really that important to him and he has too much spare time on his hands. @Itachi you need to learn that "that was bullshit" is not a valid response to a manga-supported argument. If you cannot take the time the time to read the essay or the time to respond to my posts, then I guess thats a concession. Its up to you to prove your side of the argument. You act as if I should argue for Itachi and Orochimaru at the same time because you are just lazy and unintelligent.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 3, 2016)

Oh no, please don't insult me Lord Izaya. That would make me leave this forum for good. And I love how he refers to me as "that guy". It's like he's just so far above me that it's not even worth his time looking at the top of the page to see who posted. So humble.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


>


Again, no counter. Just silly gifs/images/memes or whatever.

As I said many times before, you reaching and acting a fool only makes Itachi's case more brittle in this thread.By failing to debate properly, you are only letting down your favourite character my making him look weaker.


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

bro, remember that time you annihilated @ATastyMuffin (aka raggamuffin)


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)



Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

A whole 7th page of this thread with no actual constructive debate. Why are Itachi fans allowed to get away with this nonsense? You and @Sapherosth and @Icegaze have blatantly used fanfics in this debate, and yet you pass it off as canon and call Prime Orochimaru a fanfic character when we saw him in Part 1? What the fuck is going on here on NF? Why is it Itachi fans can get away with flaming/baiting as well as fanfic (when Sapherosth said Itachi's susanoo is covered at the bottom, every one turned a blind eye, yet if I said Orochimaru could use a Perfect Sage Mode, everyone would attack me, mock me, and ridicule me). You say I am impossible to debate with. I write fucking theses and essays and respond logically and respectfully to all arguments presented towards me. And i get responses like "tldr" "m8 i didnt read your essay" or responses like "insert insult" "insert Itachi fanfic" or responses like " ". I'm just tired of this. This is why I said in my profile I am staying away from Itachi threads from now on. 

Only when Itachi is concerned is 

Logic thrown out the window
And replaced with fanfic (which everyone turns a blind eye to)
Lies made up to bring down Itachi's opponent (aka Part 1 Oro, a character in Kishis manga is a fanfic, or Orochimaru's arms were never sealed in part 2 or some nonsense like that)
Biased arguments being used
Insults being tossed all over the place
Itachi fanboys are just impossible to debate with, you behave as if you have dyslexia. As if it is impossible to read an essay. Ask @HandfullofNaruto @PhantomSage and @LAZLOLAZZING. It is not impossible to read an essay. Read it and you might actually get somewhere and we might move on the debate. You say my essays are full of bullshit. So the manga canon is bullshit? Okay then. you choose to change the manga for your favourite character. Concession accepted.



Itachі said:


> bro, remember that time you annihilated @ATastyMuffin (aka raggamuffin)


What do you mean annihilated? And yes i remember raggamuffin lol. or TastyMuffMuff as i prefer. Cute name lol.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

Hey @Itachi , i don't understand your new avatar M8 ???


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Hey @Itachi , i don't understand your new avatar M8 ???



It's Uma Thurman playing The Bride in Kill Bill.

In this avatar she's just saying square.



			
				The Bride said:
			
		

> No, no, no, no, no. No, to get even, even-Steven... I would have to kill you... go up to Nikki's room, kill her... then wait for your husband, the good Dr. Bell, to come home and kill him. That would be even, Vernita. That'd be about square


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 3, 2016)

At the end of the day, in all this mudslinging, nothing has changed. @HandfullofNaruto and I still managed to substantiate our arguments, which no one even read let alone countered. @Itachi you can accuse me of making bad points if you want (lol, you couldnt even give me examples) but I have convinced 5 posters of my debate. 2 of whom are Itachi fans (one of them was even wanking initially) and the rest carry no bias for any of these characters, so if they believe my argument, you and the others not believing it doesnt matter to me, considering the majority of Itachi supporters in this thread used fanfiction at least once to boost Itachi or bring Orochimaru down to his level.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Hey @Itachi , i don't understand your new avatar M8 ???



How have you not watched Kill Bill?


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## Android (Jul 3, 2016)

@Itachi and @IzayaOrihara , at the end of the day what else is left , but Love , Friendship , and Honor ?



Bonly said:


> How have you not watched Kill Bill?


No , i didn't , is it that great ??!!

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , i didn't , is it that great ??!!




Yes. Now go watch it


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## Kai (Jul 3, 2016)

So the thread degenerated, as expected. 

This is also supposed to be a War Arc Orochimaru vs. Itachi discussion only.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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