# Deidara vs Itachi



## sexy no jutsu (May 12, 2010)

Deidara wants revenge on Itachi for mocking his art and challenges him for a duel. After a long wait, Deidara gets his chance to showcase his art to Itachi.

*Location:* Where Deidara fought Sasuke.

*Knowledge:* Deidara has full knowledge about Itachi. Itachi has none.

*Distance:* 50 meters.

*Restrictions:* 

Scenario 1: Amaterasu.

Scenario 2: None

*Mindset:* IC for both.

*Condition:* Deidara is fully prepared for the showdown. He has stocked a good amount of clay. Itachi on the other hand did not get any prep time.

I think Deidara would take this. Even if Itachi realizes that the clay bombs have doton affinity, there's no way he can neutralize it since he doesn't have raiton. Sasuke was just a bad matchup for Deidara.


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## Big Mom (May 12, 2010)

Itachi cannot copy his ninjutsu, has no way of getting him in the air, and cannot use genjutsu due to dei's eye.


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## Mist Puppet (May 12, 2010)

Deidara has a nice, big advantage here. He can get to the air relatively quickly, and drop C2 Dragons, something Itachi can't protect himself from without resorting to Susanoo. However, if Itachi does bring out Susanoo, there is a slight chance that deidara can escape being sealed away by Totsuka Sword.

I would give it to Deidara 6/10 because of C4.


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## Thunder (May 12, 2010)

Deidara does have the edge here, but his eye can't counter Tsukuyomi. That and Susano'o might led to Itachi's victory depending on how the battle plays out. The match still heavily favors Deidara, so I say Deidara takes this 8 times out of 10.


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## Jinnobi (May 12, 2010)

Itachi 10/10. 

Amaretsu > Flying Bird. 

Tsukiyomi > Deidara's anti-genjutsu eye. 

Susano'o: for the lulz.


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

I don't know how this would play out. I can tell you one thing though, Deidara's art being ineffective against Susano'o would *piss him off*. In my opinion, Itachi should have an opportunity to land Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu and without Tobi's presence in the battle to restrict movement then Itachi should be fast enough to avoid most everything Deidara can throw at him.

C4 is certainly a bitch though.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Itachi 10/10.
> 
> Amaretsu > Flying Bird.
> 
> ...



Amaterasu took its sweet time to incinerate Karin's cloths and fodder samurai's armor. Deidara can easily make another bird if the current one is caught up in the black flames.

How will Itachi manage to get eye contact for Tsukiyomi if Deidara is flying far, far above him? Also Deidara has full knowledge, he isn't stupid enough to stare Itachi in the eyes.

Susano'o can't be maintained for long. Itachi will be forced to bring out Susano'o to counter C3. After that, Deidara rapes a chakra depleted Itachi with a C4 Garuda.


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## Mist Puppet (May 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Amaretsu > Flying Bird.



Good thing Amaterasu is banned, at least in scenario 1.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (May 12, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Itachi 10/10.
> 
> Amaretsu > Flying Bird.
> 
> ...


Amaterasu: Deidara will stay out of its range. The DB has it down as a short range technique.

Tsukiyomi: Itachi won't be able to make eye contact

Susanoo: Deidara stays out of its range and lets Itachi run out of chakra


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

sexy no jutsu said:


> Amaterasu took its sweet time to incinerate Karin's cloths and fodder samurai's armor.



You should check the title of you thread again. This is Uchaiha 'I'm going to instantly incinerate your fireproof wall' Itachi. Not Uchiha 'I can warm you up, Karin' Sasuke.



sexy no jutsu said:


> Susano'o can't be maintained for long. Itachi will be forced to bring out Susano'o to counter C3. After that, Deidara rapes a chakra depleted Itachi with a C4 Garuda.



Itachi kept Susano'o up for a few minutes after using a handful of taxing techniques. If you're suggesting he won't be able to use them on Deidara then Susano'o can be maintained for a long time. It can also be unsummoned and resummoned efficiently.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 12, 2010)

Selim said:


> You should check the title of you thread again. This is Uchaiha 'I'm going to instantly incinerate your fireproof wall' Itachi. Not Uchiha 'I can warm you up, Karin' Sasuke.



And your point is? Amaterasu is still Amaterasu. Sasuke has _Enton: Kagutsuchi_. If anything, 'I can warm you up, Karin' Sasuke is more proficient with Amaterasu than Itachi. 



Selim said:


> Itachi kept Susano'o up for a few minutes after using a handful of taxing techniques. If you're suggesting he won't be able to use them on Deidara then Susano'o can be maintained for a long time. It can also be unsummoned and resummoned efficiently.



Itachi will be forced to use a handful of taxing techinques here as well. Deidara doesn't start out with a C3. Hell, forget C3, Itachi has no counter to even Deidara's basic jutsus like C1 and C2. Itachi will definitely have to use up a lot of chakra to survive until C3.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2010)

Deidara wins. He can stay out of range of Itachi's best attacks by flying in the air, launching bombs all the while from C1 and C2. If he wants to go into overkill he'll use C4, since Itachi can't do Raiton, he can't counter it and thus is completely obliterated.



Selim said:


> You should check the title of you thread again. This is Uchaiha 'I'm going to instantly incinerate your fireproof wall' Itachi. Not Uchiha 'I can warm you up, Karin' Sasuke.


You do realize that Itachi's Amaterasu hit a weak point in the wall, right? There was a fucking _window_ that was incorporated into the Fire Toad's Throat. Thus, a weak point. Hence why it burned so fast. 

And Sasuke is better at using Amaterasu than Itachi due to having higher stamina and he can shape it anyway.




> Itachi kept Susano'o up for a few minutes after using a handful of taxing techniques. If you're suggesting he won't be able to use them on Deidara then Susano'o can be maintained for a long time. It can also be unsummoned and resummoned efficiently.


Itachi was also blinded by Susano'o when he used it, and had to rely on hearing. How good will it be when Deidara attacks the weak part of the back with the city busting C3? He has to physically turn his 'ultimate defense' from one side to another to block, leaving himself open.


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

sexy no jutsu said:


> And your point is? Amaterasu is still Amaterasu. Sasuke has _Enton: Kagutsuchi_. If anything, 'I can warm you up, Karin' Sasuke is more proficient with Amaterasu than Itachi.



Except for the little fact that Itachi's Amaterasu is better. Stating a different technique that Sasuke has shown and Itachi hasn't doesn't change the difference between Amaterasu usages.



sexy no jutsu said:


> Itachi will be forced to use a handful of taxing techinques here as well. Deidara doesn't start out with a C3. Hell, forget C3, Itachi has no counter to even Deidara's basic jutsus like C1 and C2. Itachi will definitely have to use up a lot of chakra to survive until C3.



What will he be using and how? Why would he need Susano'o before C3 when he can dodge everything else?


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## On and On (May 12, 2010)

Itachi could deal with C1-C2, but C3 and C4 will either kill him or force him to use Susano'o, in which case Deidara beats him in a chakra match by far.

That and the fact that Deidara has no flight ceiling, lol


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## sexy no jutsu (May 12, 2010)

Selim said:


> Except for the little fact that Itachi's Amaterasu is better. Stating a different technique that Sasuke has shown and Itachi hasn't doesn't change the difference between Amaterasu usages.



Fact? What fact? It has never been stated that Itachi's Amaterasu was better. Also, Enton: Kagutsuchi is not a different technique. It just gives Sasuke better control over Amaterasu.




Selim said:


> What will he be using and how? Why would he need Susano'o before C3 when he can dodge everything else?



Hebi Sasuke is almost as fast as Itachi. Itachi ain't avoiding all of Deidara's bombs.


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

Hebi Sasuke avoided everything until there were explosive mines put in the earth so Itachi should do so easily. Blaze Release: Added Tool Earth Lord is a different technique. Hence the different name.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2010)

Itachi isn't avoiding C2 level bombs, they were able to tag a Cursed Seal Level 2 Sasuke, whose more of a speedster fighter than Itachi is. Not only that, I think that Deidara can see through the Tsukuyomi, its about the thing he was training to fight against, after all. 

Not only that, if Itachi brings out Susano'o? Deidara tests out its defenses, then drops C3 bombs all around it. Since the Yata Mirror can only block in one direction, Deidara detonates the C3 bombs all at once, and the Susano'o gets shattered.



Selim said:


> Hebi Sasuke avoided everything until there were explosive mines put in the earth so Itachi should do so easily. Blaze Release: Added Tool Earth Lord is a different technique. Hence the different name.


Actually, Cursed Seal Level 2 Sasuke was hit by C2 bombs, and he's faster than Itachi is anyway, being more of a speedster fighter. 

And yes, the manga called Sasuke's Amaterasu use better than Itachi's. The reason why Itachi's Amaterasu burned so quickly through the Toad Mouth Bind? It hit a weak point, a WINDOW was there.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 13, 2010)

Selim said:


> Hebi Sasuke avoided everything until there were explosive mines put in the earth so Itachi should do so easily. Blaze Release: Added Tool Earth Lord is a different technique. Hence the different name.





Deidara hitting CS2 Sasuke who's faster than Itachi.

Even if Itachi somehow manages to survive until C3, he still does not have an answer to C4 Garuda. Not even Susano'o will protect him from that.


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## Watermelon Lover (May 13, 2010)

Deidara.

Even with a closer starting distance, Deidara's a major contender on the ground. He was able to best team Gai in a footrace without an arm and while physically exhausted with no clay. 

Bushnin feints and dotons are usually things that sharingan can help avoid, but with Deidara even Itachi is going to have to stay on his toes. Keep in mind this is the Itachi that was frighteningly close to complete blindness- one MS jutsu and his sight takes an even sharper nosedive.

Once Deidara makes it into the air, which will be alarmingly fast, he's won. Bombs away on poor Itachi. Susan'oo is his only faint hope and Deidara was quick enough to dance circles around Gaara while in the desert and in the air. 

In all fairness, Deidara has a pretty solid battle plan and with prep time and a serious state of mind there aren't many opponents without a raiton affinity that are even a minor struggle for him.


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## Bloo (May 13, 2010)

Itachi wins, he would most likely try a tsukuyomi, and that's something Deidara is not immune to. And also C4 is useless against a dojutsu user.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 13, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> Itachi wins, he would most likely try a tsukuyomi, and that's something Deidara is not immune to. *And also C4 is useless against a dojutsu user.*



Care to explain why?


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## RockpiRate (May 13, 2010)

Deidara...he can trow his bobs without looking Itachi's eyes


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## Mist Puppet (May 13, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> And also C4 is useless against a dojutsu user.



Uh, no it isn't.

Itachi doesn't have anything to counter C4.


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## Jinnobi (May 13, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> Uh, no it isn't.
> 
> Itachi doesn't have anything to counter C4.



Except he can see the damn micro-bombs and retreat.

Those little bombs wouldn't react well to heat. A little Amaretsu on the ground should clear an area for Itachi.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Except he can see the damn micro-bombs and retreat.



Once the C4 detonates, it would be too late for him to retreat. Besides being extremely fast, the C4 has an extremely large AOE, there's no way Itachi is getting away.



Jinnobi said:


> Those little bombs wouldn't react well to heat. A little Amaretsu on the ground should clear an area for Itachi.



Baseless fan-fiction. There's nothing in the manga that suggests that C4 can be negated by Katon or Amaterasu.


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## Jinnobi (May 13, 2010)

sexy no jutsu said:


> Once the C4 detonates, it would be too late for him to retreat. Besides being extremely fast, the C4 has an extremely large AOE, there's no way Itachi is getting away.



Extremely fast? What "fan-fiction" is this? 





> Baseless fan-fiction. There's nothing in the manga that suggests that C4 can be negated by Katon or Amaterasu.



I assume Naruto is at least a _little_ like the real world. Why don't you try putting explosives next to fire, and see what happens.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Extremely fast? What "fan-fiction" is this?






The tiny explosives covered a large area in a small amount of time.




Jinnobi said:


> I assume Naruto is at least a _little_ like the real world. Why don't you try putting explosives next to fire, and see what happens.



Too bad Itachi isn't dealing with your ordinary firecracker. Deidara's bombs cannot be diffused by katons.


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## Jinnobi (May 13, 2010)

> The tiny explosives covered a large area in a small amount of time.





Extremely fast = not fast enough for Sasuke to avoid. Itachi is faster than Sasuke, and more intelligent to boot.



> Too bad Itachi isn't dealing with your ordinary firecracker. Deidara's bombs cannot be diffused by katons.



I'm theorycrafting that they would be manually detonated by fire. I could be wrong - but even if I am, my point stands: Itachi would avoid Deidara's C4 just like Sasuke did.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 13, 2010)

with the ways things are set so unfairly deidara wins...
he flys above itachi range with ease and drops c3
susanoo would block it, but then what???
diedara drops another one. itachi is dying here
make it even for a more fair match, knowledge for itachi


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## sexy no jutsu (May 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Extremely fast = not fast enough for Sasuke to avoid. Itachi is faster than Sasuke, and more intelligent to boot.
> 
> 
> I'm theorycrafting that they would be manually detonated by fire. I could be wrong - but even if I am, my point stands: Itachi would avoid Deidara's C4 just like Sasuke did.



Sasuke never avoided it. Deidara was expecting it, the first C4 garuda was a decoy. Sasuke neutralized the second C4 by using raikiri on his own body, something Itachi wont be able to do.

Besides, Itachi has no idea that the C4 is nano sized bombs. Itachi would most likely expect a massive explosion and would summon Susano'o for protection. And when it detonates, it would be too late for Itachi even if he can distinguish the tiny bombs by their chakra color.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 13, 2010)

erm itachi would dodge it the same way sasuke did....decoy or not
stop the troll!!!!
what itachi wont do, that sasuke would is attack blindly after wards.....2 reason
itachi is smarter
itachi is more careful and can use bunshin
what he will do..is use the trees the same way sasuke did...but instead of going for the kill with a chidori ..itachi would use susanoo...maybe just a hand  or the sword with the hand to cut deidara.
and if sasuke could gen deidara from that far why cnt itachi use tskuyomi from that far?????


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## Jinnobi (May 13, 2010)

sexy no jutsu said:


> Sasuke never avoided it. Deidara was expecting it, the first C4 garuda was a decoy. Sasuke neutralized the second C4 by using raikiri on his own body, something Itachi wont be able to do.
> 
> Besides, Itachi has no idea that the C4 is nano sized bombs. Itachi would most likely expect a massive explosion and would summon Susano'o for protection. And when it detonates, it would be too late for Itachi even if he can distinguish the tiny bombs by their chakra color.



No - Sasuke really did avoid the first one. However, Deidara was apparently expecting it and made a clone to fool Sasuke. When Sasuke was stuck because he attacked the clone, Deidara used another C4 at melee range. If Itachi was in that situation (which he wouldn't be in the first place), he would've simply used Susano'o to crush Deidara when he laid a hand on him.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> No - Sasuke really did avoid the first one. *However, Deidara was apparently expecting it *and made a clone to fool Sasuke. When Sasuke was stuck because he attacked the clone, Deidara used another C4 at melee range. If Itachi was in that situation (which he wouldn't be in the first place), he would've simply used Susano'o to crush Deidara when he laid a hand on him.



Exactly, hence the first was a decoy.

And about the second part, lets agree to disagree.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 13, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> if sasuke could gen deidara from that far why cnt itachi use tskuyomi from that far?????



Because Sasuke didn't "gen Deidara from that far", he only thought he did. 

Anyhow, all we have is a statement from Deidara himself saying that he's trained his left eye to counter Itachi's genjutsu. We don't know how effective his method would be against high-end genjutsu like tsukiyomi, but we can at least infer that as far as average genjutsu goes it's fairly effective.

Let's see, I think both scenarios are a little unfair in favor of Deidara, especially scenario 1 (No Amateratsu). Giving Deidara prep time and full knowledge and Itachi neither, Deidara wins but not without breaking a sweat. On equal footing with full knowledge/prep time for both, Deidara still seems well suited to taking Itachi down. As long as he stays out of his range and keeps it a battle of attrition, he should win due to Itachi's inferior stamina.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2010)

Do you realize the only reason why Sasuke avoided the first C4 was because he could FLY right and diffuse the bomb with lightning, right?


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## Sadgoob (May 13, 2010)

Akimichi Farley said:


> Because Sasuke didn't "gen Deidara from that far", he only thought he did.



This is fundamentally untrue. If Sasuke didn't Genjutsu him on the ground, then Deidara would have seen Sasuke transform in the the Curse Seal form and begin his ascent before putting him in a Genjutsu.


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## Akimichi Farley (May 13, 2010)

Selim said:


> This is fundamentally untrue. If Sasuke didn't Genjutsu him on the ground, then Deidara would have seen Sasuke transform in the the Curse Seal form and begin his ascent before putting him in a Genjutsu.



To me it seemed like Deidara quickly saw through Sasuke's genjutsu attempt and countered him. 
I can totally accept that Sasuke had him effectively under his genjutsu, and that Deidara simply broke it with his trained eye somehow, if that's what you're saying. The end result is the same. 

Deidara seems to have an effective counter against genjutsu. At least that of the average variety. We still don't know how well his method would against high-end techniques like Tsukiyomi.


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## Mist Puppet (May 13, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Except he can see the damn micro-bombs and retreat.



He still has to breathe.



> Those little bombs wouldn't react well to heat. A little Amaretsu on the ground should clear an area for Itachi.



Amaterasu on the micro bombs? Good luck with that.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 13, 2010)

You're forgetting Itachi's ability though. You dislike Itachi so much that you completely ignore his feat which is completely oblivious to all debates regarding Itachi's abilities. Honestly, Itachi can beat Deidara without even using Sharingan. Itachi could easily get Deidara with a weak genjutsu that even his strong resistant eye to genjutsu can't even avoid. Also, Itachi wiped out half the clan. Deidara is no match for Orochimaru, Itachi is much stronger than Orochimaru, so this also proves Itachi's victory. Also, Sasuke may not have beaten Deidara, but he could have. It was definately confirmed that Sasuke was stronger than Deidara, and Itachi is MUCH stronger than Sasuke. Itachi could have beaten Sasuke, AND HE WAS NOT EVEN TRYING. Also, Itachi even had hidden power that is definately something to look out for. 

All of Deidara's weaknesses were apparent to all of the Akatsuki, as well as theirws being apparent to everyone else as well, however, Itachi's abilities, at least not all, weren't completely revealed. The abilities that have been shown far surpasses Deidara's. And fact, Itachi's intelligence far supplants thaty of Deidara's. Itachi definately wins.


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## Mist Puppet (May 13, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Honestly, Itachi can beat Deidara without even using Sharingan.



No he couldn't. 



> Also, Itachi wiped out half the clan. Deidara is no match for Orochimaru, Itachi is much stronger than Orochimaru, so this also proves Itachi's victory.



A>B>C logic doesn't work here.



> Also, Sasuke may not have beaten Deidara, but he could have. It was definately confirmed that Sasuke was stronger than Deidara, and Itachi is MUCH stronger than Sasuke. Itachi could have beaten Sasuke, AND HE WAS NOT EVEN TRYING. Also, Itachi even had hidden power that is definately something to look out for.



Sasuke beat deidara because he had an elemental advantage. Something Itachi lacks here.



> All of Deidara's weaknesses were apparent to all of the Akatsuki, as well as theirws being apparent to everyone else as well, however, Itachi's abilities, at least not all, weren't completely revealed. The abilities that have been shown far surpasses Deidara's. And fact, Itachi's intelligence far supplants thaty of Deidara's. Itachi definately wins.



Is Itachi's intelligence going to help him survive C2, C3, or C4?


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## Big Mom (May 13, 2010)

Ninjutsu- Deidara

Genjutsu- Itachi though its pretty much useless

taijutsu- Itachi but again pretty much useless

I see Deidara winning. Itachi doesn't have lighting release therefore he will be doding more bombs than Sasuke. Itachi has no way of getting up to the dragon and amaterasu is bad for long distances. Susanoo wont protect against bombs and tsukiyomi is debatable. So... yeah Deidara.


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## Tobi Oochiha (May 13, 2010)

starts off with deidara's c3 dragon then the c4 garuda and kills itachi with those dragon bombs while itachi is dodging the microscopic bombs.


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## Bloo (May 13, 2010)

sexy no jutsu said:


> Care to explain why?



For once I'm going to let Sasuke talk for me:




Selim said:


> This is fundamentally untrue. If Sasuke didn't Genjutsu him on the ground, then Deidara would have seen Sasuke transform in the the Curse Seal form and begin his ascent before putting him in a Genjutsu.



But the point that he put him in a genjutsu from that far away makes this match more speculative than most people believe. Tsukuyomi would end it if he's caught. Seeing how it's not restricted.


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## Sadgoob (May 13, 2010)

People still aren't realizing that Itachi should be able to easily avoid C2 without there being implanted mines in the ground. C3 is burst damage that can surely be blocked by Susano'o. C4 isn't perpetual as shown by Deidara's and Sasuke's descent in to the dome after a moment in the air.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

Selim said:


> People still aren't realizing that Itachi should be able to easily avoid C2 without there being implanted mines in the ground. C3 is burst damage that can surely be blocked by Susano'o. C4 isn't perpetual as shown by Deidara's and Sasuke's descent in to the dome after a moment in the air.


C4 didn't stick around since Deidara ALREADY DETONATED IT and Itachi doesn't have the means of diffusing it. Not only that, 
Tsukuyomi won't work due to it's limited range, and not only that. Susano'o eventually shatters from C3 after C3. Hell, Deidara circles it with all C3's and detonates it all at once. Thus, Susano'o's shatters after being hit by


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## Tengu (May 14, 2010)

Itachi wins in both scenarios, in the first one he could dodge c1, c2 use suasnoó to block c3 and avoid c4.He will likely use Tsukuiomy on him and win.
In the second scenario he wins even easier with Amaterasu unrestricted.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> Itachi wins in both scenarios, in the first one he could dodge c1, c2 use suasno? to block c3 and avoid c4.He will likely use Tsukuiomy on him and win.
> In the second scenario he wins even easier with Amaterasu unrestricted.


1. Itachi doesn't win. Deidara takes to the air immediately, and starts bombing the shit out of Itachi. He's not faster than CS2 Sasuke, and gets tagged by C2. C3 shatters Susano'o-its city destructing and Susano'o failed to stop Kirin. And finally C4 disintegrates him, Itachi needs to BREATH. Deidara is out of range of all of Itachi's genjutsus, including Tsukuyomi.

2. Yeah, black flames that can't even REACH THEIR TARGET. You do know that all the MS jutsus are short range right? Deidara again rapestomps Itachi.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 14, 2010)

sorry did u say itachi is slower than sasuke???
wow u are truly a itachi hater...wow!!!!sasuke in cs2 is stronger as well yeah???
in this match things arent in itachi favor none the less deidara doesnt know about susanoo and still will come in handy....
deidara uses c4..itachi doesnt try to run away...deidara confused as to why drops his guard down and gets totsuka in the chest. 
if sasuke could out run c4 itachi would easily
itachi will never be caught the same way sasuke was
even if he was to be caught he will want to be...at the range where sasuke was caught itachi will use tskuyomi and deidara will be no more. 
itachi will kill deidara how can this be in doubt
and deidara cnt spam c3 so come off that....
and notice the smalll size of the 2nd c4...
deidara is more limited than people think 
itachi is limited 2 but his techs are harder to dodge
and ama burns whatever the user sets his eyes on rite
which means if he can see u he can burn u
while this is speculation, sasuke has shown to use genjutsu at a ridiculously long range


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> sorry did u say itachi is slower than sasuke???
> wow u are truly a itachi hater...wow!!!!sasuke in cs2 is stronger as well yeah???


CS2 Sasuke is faster and stronger than Itachi, _and can fly._ He has better feats.


> in this match things arent in itachi favor none the less deidara doesnt know about susanoo and still will come in handy....


How? He's far out of Susano'o's range.


> deidara uses c4..itachi doesnt try to run away...deidara confused as to why drops his guard down and gets totsuka in the chest.


Did you forget that Deidara can fly? And that Itachi can't? And Itachi can't avoid C4 since he has to breath.


> if sasuke could out run c4 itachi would easily


He didn't. He out _flew_ it, and not only that, he diffused it. Deidara already detonated it.


> itachi will never be caught the same way sasuke was


Yeah, he'll be easily caught by C4. He can't fly, is in a mind field, and Deidara stays out of his range.


> even if he was to be caught he will want to be...at the range where sasuke was caught itachi will use tskuyomi and deidara will be no more.


Tsukuyomi can't hit Deidara in the air. Tsukuyomi has a limited range, Deidara is at a comfortably safe distance.


> itachi will kill deidara how can this be in doubt


_SINCE ITACHI CAN'T FLY!_


> and deidara cnt spam c3 so come off that....


Given how with a limited amount of clay he brought one, he can spam it with a full arsenal.


> and notice the smalll size of the 2nd c4...


Whats that got to do anything? C4 spreads through the air. Itachi has to breath.


> deidara is more limited than people think


No, he isn't. Deidara can fly and spam bombs. Itachi can't. He can't even diffuse the bombs like Sasuke since he lacks Raiton.


> itachi is limited 2 but his techs are harder to dodge
> and ama burns whatever the user sets his eyes on rite


No, he can't. Amaterasu doesn't have a range of 5 meters, which Deidara can get out of easily, and Tsukuyomi also has a range of five meters, again, Deidara's out of range.


> which means if he can see u he can burn u


Amaterasu can't burn someone high up since it has a limited range.


> while this is speculation, sasuke has shown to use genjutsu at a ridiculously long range


No, he doesn't. Sasuke had to get into range to use it via FLYING. And finally, _Deidara saw through it._ Deidara's immune to genjutsu.


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 14, 2010)

Selim said:


> People still aren't realizing that Itachi should be able to easily avoid C2 without there being implanted mines in the ground. C3 is burst damage that can surely be blocked by Susano'o. C4 isn't perpetual as shown by Deidara's and Sasuke's descent in to the dome after a moment in the air.



I see Itachi still taking this

First of all, c1 is not hitting Itachi 

With C2, unlike Sasuke, Itachi doesn't have 2 dodge in land mines that Tobi planted so he dodges the guided missiles pretty easy

I don't see C3 hitting Itachi either 
1st of all it takes a long time 2 prepare
2nd it isn't guided so u it won't be as accurate
Itachi will have plenty of time to get away and if it misses, Deidaras chakra will be low

C4 may be the only thing that threatens Itachi but he will prolly see the nano bombs and retreat and use a KB in his place while he either uses Genjutsu or Tsukyomi, and while Deidara disoriented use the Totsuka Sword to seal him

Itachi ftw!!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> I see Itachi still taking this
> 
> First of all, c1 is not hitting Itachi
> 
> ...


1. Sasuke was hit and he's near Itachi's level of speed. He's not a good in speed. 

2. C2 hits CS2 Sasuke, who has better speed feats than Itachi.

3. How the hell does C3 take long too prepare? And Deidara's chakra low? He was perfectly fine after using it! You're making shit up.

4. Itachi will breath in the C4 and die. He has no counter. 

And Deidara is in the AIR. He's immune to Itachi's genjutsu. Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o have a _limited range_. Deidara wins.


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## jakemooz (May 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Itachi doesn't win. Deidara takes to the air immediately, and starts bombing the shit out of Itachi. He's not faster than CS2 Sasuke, and gets tagged by C2. C3 shatters Susano'o-its city destructing and Susano'o failed to stop Kirin. And finally C4 disintegrates him, Itachi needs to BREATH. Deidara is out of range of all of Itachi's genjutsus, including Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 2. Yeah, black flames that can't even REACH THEIR TARGET. You do know that all the MS jutsus are short range right? Deidara again rapestomps Itachi.



How the hell is Amaterasu a short range ninjutsu? In scenario 2, Itachi stomps. Scenario one is more interesting, but C3 and maybe C4 can be blocked by Susanoo and Itachi is fast enough in hand seals that Kakashi could barely keep track of him and Sasuke didni't see the kage bunshin itachi made.

Combine with Itachi's speed and he takes it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

jakemooz said:


> How the hell is Amaterasu a short range ninjutsu?


Since it is. All of the times it was used it has been short ranged, not only that, the databook gives it a range of less than five meters.


> In scenario 2, Itachi stomps.


Deidara gets up into the air. Itachi can't touch him.


> Scenario one is more interesting, but C3 and maybe C4 can be blocked by Susanoo and Itachi is fast enough in hand seals that Kakashi could barely keep track of him and Sasuke didni't see the kage bunshin itachi made.


C3 or C4 is overkill for Itachi. Itachi can't touch him and Itachi made no Kage Bushin during their fight.

Not only that, Susano'o won't  block C4, Mei's boiling mist got through, C4 will get through and Itachi gets disintegrated.

And finally, C3 shatters Susano'o.


> Combine with Itachi's speed and he takes it.


Itachi can't touch Deidara. _Deidara has the advantage of FLIGHT._


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Sasuke was hit and he's near Itachi's level of speed. He's not a good in speed.
> 
> 2. C2 hits CS2 Sasuke, who has better speed feats than Itachi.
> 
> ...



He was trying 2 dodge land mines also 
W/o Tobi who would set up the land mines

Sasuke is not faster than Itachi 
Sasuke has a 4.5 in speed while Itachi has a 5 in speed
Even Sasuke wasn't able 2 react 2 Itachi's speed


The prep time is when he takes out c3 and has 2 add his chakra, drop on the ground and let it explode
Itachi will see it coming and be able 2 get out of range or pretend 2 get hit and make it seem like a genjutsu

So you're saying he will spam C1, C2, C3, and C4 and not b low on chakra?
He admitted to bein low on chakra in his fight with Sasuke

And that was w/o using C3
So provided C1 and C2 don't take Itachi down, he'll be left with a couple of C3s and C4s which Itachi can either retreat or use Susanoo

Susanoo is a counter 2 C4 
If it can stop a jutsu in 1/1000th of a second, it can stop nano-bombs which Itachi could see anyway and juss retreat
It is a spiritual weapon which can stop all things w/ Yata's Mirror

If Genjutsu has a limited range, how did Deidara get caught twice w/ the first one at an extremely long distance?


Amaterusu burns whatever the eyes focus on as stated here

And if u think that wont work on Deidara, how did Kakashi catch him w/ Kamui?

It has the same concept of Amaterusu as the user has to focus on whatever it wants to attack

ur forgetting the range and speed of Susanoo 2

Oro couldn't even finish his sentence w/ the speed of the attack


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> He was trying 2 dodge land mines also
> W/o Tobi who would set up the land mines


He tagged Sasuke without needing the minds during the fight.


> Sasuke is not faster than Itachi
> Sasuke has a 4.5 in speed while Itachi has a 5 in speed
> Even Sasuke wasn't able 2 react 2 Itachi's speed


You do know that Sasuke would get a 5 in speed using CS2 right? And yeah, he was able to react to Itachi's speed many times during the fight.


> The prep time is when he takes out c3 and has 2 add his chakra, drop on the ground and let it explode


Was Deidara drained AT ALL in the fight with Gaara? 


> Itachi will see it coming and be able 2 get out of range or pretend 2 get hit and make it seem like a genjutsu


Deidara sees through Genjutsu, remember? He saw through all of Sasuke's genjutsus, thus will see through all of Itachi's.


> So you're saying he will spam C1, C2, C3, and C4 and not b low on chakra?
> He admitted to bein low on chakra in his fight with Sasuke


And that was after a long battle where Sasuke countered everything he used with lightning chakra. And also ignore that Deidara could still use his clay and do a suicide attack.


> nd that was w/o using C3


C3 didn't drain Deidara at all.


> So provided C1 and C2 don't take Itachi down, he'll be left with a couple of C3s and C4s which Itachi can either retreat or use Susanoo


By then Itachi will be dead. He can't do anything to hit Deidara in the sky.


> Susanoo is a counter 2 C4
> If it can stop a jutsu in 1/1000th of a second, it can stop nano-bombs which Itachi could see anyway and juss retreat
> It is a spiritual weapon which can stop all things w/ Yata's Mirror


Sasuke could still see Mei's boiling mist, it still got by the Susano'o and melted his skin. Itachi's will be no different with C4. It'll bypass the Susano'o, Itachi'll breath it in and he'll die.

Nevermind the fact he can't maintain it for long.


> If Genjutsu has a limited range, how did Deidara get caught twice w/ the first one at an extremely long distance?


He didnt' get 'caught' at all. And nevermind the fact that _Sasuke can fly with CS2 to close the range_. Itachi _can't fly._


> Amaterusu burns whatever the eyes focus on as stated here
> 
> And if u think that wont work on Deidara, how did Kakashi catch him w/ Kamui?
> 
> It has the same concept of Amaterusu as the user has to focus on whatever it wants to attack


Kamui doesn't have a range limit. Amaterasu does. Amaterasu is for close up.


> ur forgetting the range and speed of Susanoo 2
> 
> Oro couldn't even finish his sentence w/ the speed of the attack


Orochimaru was being an idiot and prosturing, allowing himself to be hit by Itachi instead of getting away. 

And Deidara can fly high into the sky, way out of Itachi's range. What the hell don't you get about this? Deidara's flight advantage allows him to kill Itachi easily.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 15, 2010)

wow.....i am amazed at the itachi hatred in u....its strong
itachi>>>deidara 
c4 was dodged by sasuke, he didnt fly over it or diffuse the first one. 
he simply escaped its range, with ease...infact he had time to add genjutsu to the whole running away scheme
what is the range of sharingan genjutsu in the databook, please tell me...
5-10 rite...how far was sasuke when he cast that genjutsu on deidara????
ama will burn him nicely if itachi can locate him, kamui as well has a range of what in DB
its been used at longer distances than 5-10
susanoo is as big as a summon, deidara doesnt know about that
deidara stayed slightly further than 5m against sasuke
susanoo>>>>>5m
deidara hasnt set up the mines, so c2 will be casually avoided
even the op realises how much stronger itachi is
he gave deidara knowledge and gave itachi none
we have seen how important knowledge on the battle field is
difference between life in naruto case and death in jiraiya


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## Lord Potato (May 15, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> Uh, no it isn't.
> 
> Itachi doesn't have anything to counter C4.




Are you for real? Then how did Sasuke counter them?

Because of the Sharingan and Genjutsu. At that time, ITACHI'S genjutsu and Sharingans is far better then Sasukes.


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## Watermelon Lover (May 15, 2010)

Karl said:


> Are you for real? Then how did Sasuke counter them?
> 
> Because of the Sharingan and Genjutsu. At that time, ITACHI'S genjutsu and Sharingans is far better then Sasukes.



Sasuke had a raiton affinity.

...also, Itachi is nearly blind. I doubt he'll be able to discern microscopic bombs the way Sasuke was.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 15, 2010)

yh he was just able to dodge most of sasuke attack and see that sasuke had low chakra reserves after his series of katon. 
itachi would see that chakra cloud....no problem
deidara dies nicely against itachi.


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## Lord Potato (May 15, 2010)

Watermelon Lover said:


> Sasuke had a raiton affinity.
> 
> ...also, Itachi is nearly blind. I doubt he'll be able to discern microscopic bombs the way Sasuke was.



Itachi outlasted Sasuke and he did Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o in one battle. And you think that he wont be able to see some chakra colors..? Or do the same that Sasuke did with C4?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Karl said:


> Itachi outlasted Sasuke and he did Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o in one battle. And you think that he wont be able to see some chakra colors..? Or do the same that Sasuke did with C4?


No, he won't. Itachi is nearly blind and has extremely low stamina, and he _can't counter Deidara's jutsus_. He may be able to see them, but that's extremely unlikely, but he can't DIFFUSE them.

You also ignore the fact that Sasuke could fly to get into range of Deidara. And the face he was hit even in CS2-which has better speed feats than Itachi.



machiavelli2009 said:


> wow.....i am amazed at the itachi hatred in u....its strong


Its not hatred. Deidara just has several advantages over Itachi.


> itachi>>>deidara


How does Itachi even reach Deidara before he takes into the air? How does he cancel his jutsus? 


> c4 was dodged by sasuke, he didnt fly over it or diffuse the first one.


No, he diffused it with Raiton. 


> he simply escaped its range, with ease...infact he had time to add genjutsu to the whole running away scheme


And Deidara _saw through said genjutsu_ and made a trap for Sasuke, remember?


> what is the range of sharingan genjutsu in the databook, please tell me...
> 5-10 rite...how far was sasuke when he cast that genjutsu on deidara????


Sasuke was on the ground then flew up to get into range. And Deidara _saw through_ the genjutsu. And there was no genjutsu the second time either, that was just a summon snake.


> ama will burn him nicely if itachi can locate him, kamui as well has a range of what in DB
> its been used at longer distances than 5-10


Amaterasu and Kamui are different techniques. Aamaterasu is short range, Kamui, with practice can be used at any range.


> susanoo is as big as a summon, deidara doesnt know about that
> deidara stayed slightly further than 5m against sasuke
> susanoo>>>>>5m


Read the OP, Deidara has full knowledge of Itachi. Including his MS jutsus. And Susano'o's attach range-Deidara simply flies higher while Itachi blinds himslef.


> deidara hasnt set up the mines, so c2 will be casually avoided


Deidara didn't need the minds to tag Sasuke who was in CS2, Mach.


> he gave deidara knowledge and gave itachi none
> we have seen how important knowledge on the battle field is
> difference between life in naruto case and death in jiraiya


So you agree that Deidara has the advantage. Not only that, Deidara wins. He can fly, Itachi can't. 

Mach, please work on your typing. Its hard to read your posts.


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## Lord Potato (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he won't. Itachi is nearly blind and has extremely low stamina, and he _can't counter Deidara's jutsus_. He may be able to see them, but that's extremely unlikely, but he can't DIFFUSE them.




 .. Itachi can't counter Deidara's jutsus? Then what did he do here:   ?? 

GENJUTSU IS THE ANSWER! 

 I know that Deidara trained his left eye (?) for Genjutsu but Sasuke managed to fool Deidara with Genjutsu, i wonder what Itachi could do.. hmm.. probably, a hater like you, wouldn't know that.

You're just too much, seriously.


I wont bother you anymore, i don't want to argue with a hater.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Karl said:


> .. Itachi can't counter Deidara's jutsus? Then what did he do here:   ??
> 
> GENJUTSU IS THE ANSWER!


Young Deidara _with no experience with Sharingan genjutsu_. Dear god, you're actually using that as evidence Karl? 

That's...just pathetic. Using young Deidara as evidence, with no experience with Sharingan genjutsu and before Deidara even developed C2, C3, C4, or his Genjutsu dispersing eye.


> I know that Deidara trained his left eye (?) for Genjutsu but Sasuke managed to fool Deidara with Genjutsu, i wonder what Itachi could do.. hmm.. probably, a hater like you, wouldn't know that.


No, Sasuke never fooled Deidara with a genjutsu. He fooled Sasuke with a summoned snake which was killed by the C4. Deidara saw the summon snake dying, assumed it was Sasuke, and Sasuke punched him.

Again, no genjutsu worked on Deidara. He saw through the first time, making a trap for Sasuke for a close range C4.


> You're just too much, seriously.
> 
> 
> I wont bother you anymore, i don't want to argue with a hater.


I'm a hater since I say Deidara wins? I'm a hater since canon proves Deidara can see through Genjutsu, thus nullifying Itachi's strongest asset? I'm a hater since Deidara can fly and Itachi can't?

You just can't form a proper argument.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Karl said:


> I agree, + reps.


 


Sorry, Deidara wins and Itachi loses.


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## Jinnobi (May 15, 2010)

No, he doesn't. And you cleverly avoid sound arguments while making faulty ones of your own.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> No, he doesn't. And you cleverly avoid sound arguments while making faulty ones of your own.


Can Itachi fly? Can he use Raiton? Can he get into Deidara's range?

The answer to all three is no.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He tagged Sasuke without needing the minds during the fight.
> 
> You do know that Sasuke would get a 5 in speed using CS2 right? And yeah, he was able to react to Itachi's speed many times during the fight.
> 
> ...




No he didn't. Do u have proof he hit Sasuke w/o C2 mines?

N CS2 Sasuke has the same speed as base Sasuke only he can fly
The only reason he could react 2 Itachi is bcuz Itachi planned 2 lose from the start n he wasnt healthy

He wasnt drained of chakra with Gaara but he was n the Sasuke fight

If c1 and c2 couldn't hit Sasuke w/o using land mines what makes u think it will hit Itachi?


He dodged every attack up until he stepped on the land mine which won't be set up against Itachi.
With that, Itachi will have more maneuverability 2 go w/ his already top-level speed
All Itachi has 2 do is point a finger 2 cast genjutsu

And ITACHI can use crow clones 2 fly n use a Tsukynomi on Deidara


First of all Sasuke was already exhausted from using multiple MS techniques
against Gaara and Raikage and his Susanoo was incomplete w/ just the ribs
And u can't even compare Sasuke Susanoo 2 Itachi cuz his has Yata's Mirror and Totsuka Sword 

He doesn't need 2 he can juss us it until he gets out of C4s range or until he seals Deidara whichever quicker
He didnt not see through all of Sasuke's Genjutsu


Genjutsu doesn't have a range limit and neither does Susanoo 
All Itachi need is 1 attack 2 land w/ Susanoo or Amaterusu
Come to think of it wasn't Sasuke out of range at one point

And yet he was able 2 land an attack on an airborne Deidara


Heres why

Sasuke was able to land a hit bcuz he knew the range of his attacks and lured Deidara in  in 2 the shortest distance he could use his attacks
He lured Deidara by attacking so he would get closer so he could get in range
I think Itachi will lure Deidara 2 the range he wants 2 attack

Deidara eventually is gonna have to get within range of Itachi 2 land an  attack
I see Itachi luring Deidara in for an attack n countering him

Ur so busy talkin about Itachi not bein able 2 hit Deidara that u 4got Deidara wont b able 2 hit Itachi 
From far range those bombs lose effectiveness as they r less accurate
Deidara would want 2 closer in order 2 guide them a little better n have more accurate attacks
And when in Itachi's range he gets tagged 

Itachi FTW


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## Lord Potato (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Can Itachi fly? Can he use Raiton? Can he get into Deidara's range?
> 
> The answer to all three is no.




Can Sasori fly? Can he use Raiton? Can Sasori get into Deidara's range? (maybe xD)

The answer to all the three is no, yet Deidara admit that Sasori is the stronger one.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> No he didn't. Do u have proof he hit Sasuke w/o C2 mines?


Someone already posted it at the first page.


> N CS2 Sasuke has the same speed as base Sasuke only he can fly
> The only reason he could react 2 Itachi is bcuz Itachi planned 2 lose from the start n he wasnt healthy


Wrong. CS2 makes Sasuke faster AND grants him the ability to fly. 


> He wasnt drained of chakra with Gaara but he was n the Sasuke fight


Because Sasuke had countered everything and he still had enough chakra to do his suicide jutsu, remember?


> If c1 and c2 couldn't hit Sasuke w/o using land mines what makes u think it will hit Itachi?
> 
> 
> He dodged every attack up until he stepped on the land mine which won't be set up against Itachi.


Uh, as someone else already posted on the first page, Sasuke was tagged without being hit by a landmind.


> With that, Itachi will have more maneuverability 2 go w/ his already top-level speed


Its all moot since he can't fly.


> All Itachi has 2 do is point a finger 2 cast genjutsu


Deidara can see through genjutsu, remember?


> And ITACHI can use crow clones 2 fly n use a Tsukynomi on Deidara


Thats a genjutsu. He doesn't make clones using crows. He can't get into Deidara's range.


> First of all Sasuke was already exhausted from using multiple MS techniques
> against Gaara and Raikage and his Susanoo was incomplete w/ just the ribs
> And u can't even compare Sasuke Susanoo 2 Itachi cuz his has Yata's Mirror and Totsuka Sword


You do know that Itachi's Susano'o can't block every attack since Yata Mirror isn't omni directional and the Totsuka sword can't touch Deidara since he's out of range.


> He doesn't need 2 he can juss us it until he gets out of C4s range or until he seals Deidara whichever quicker
> He didnt not see through all of Sasuke's Genjutsu


That wasn't genjutsu. That was a SUMMON SNAKE. Deidara even commented on it.


> Genjutsu doesn't have a range limit and neither does Susanoo


Yes they do. If Deidara is out of Itachi's line of sight, how can he hit him?


> All Itachi need is 1 attack 2 land w/ Susanoo or Amaterusu


Amaterasu and Susano'o are close range, they can't hit Deidara flying high in the air..


> Come to think of it wasn't Sasuke out of range at one point
> 
> And yet he was able 2 land an attack on an airborne Deidara


Look HOW he did it. Itachi doesn't have the same jutsus.
Heres why


> Sasuke was able to land a hit bcuz he knew the range of his attacks and lured Deidara in  in 2 the shortest distance he could use his attacks
> He lured Deidara by attacking so he would get closer so he could get in range
> I think Itachi will lure Deidara 2 the range he wants 2 attack


No, Itachi really can't.


> Deidara eventually is gonna have to get within range of Itachi 2 land an  attack


Wrong. Deidara can attack long range, Itachi can't.


> I see Itachi luring Deidara in for an attack n countering him


Itachi CAN'T counter Deidara's techniques.


> Ur so busy talkin about Itachi not bein able 2 hit Deidara that u 4got Deidara wont b able 2 hit Itachi
> From far range those bombs lose effectiveness as they r less accurate
> Deidara would want 2 closer in order 2 guide them a little better n have more accurate attacks
> And when in Itachi's range he gets tagged


You're just making things up as you go along and ignoring factors on why Sasuke did so well against Deidara.


> Itachi FTW


Wrong. Deidara wins.


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## Vergil642 (May 15, 2010)

Deidara isn't immune to Sharingan Genjutsu. .

Deidara is going to be happy to "prove" he's immune to Sharingan Genjutsu and won't look away from Itachi's eyes.

End result: see the chapter where he nearly blows himself up after Itachi Genjutsu's him. Then picture him exploding himself, as Itachi won't stop him here.

Similarly, Deidara's attacks are too slow to hit Itachi, especially when he can easily replace himself with a KB at any time. C4 is useless here as Itachi can see the big cloud of microscopic bombs via the chakra they contain the same way Sasuke did and thus just walk around it. C0 is the only possible threat, but Susanoo mitigates that.

Deidara has no real way of winning this. Except absurd blind luck.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Deidara isn't immune to Sharingan Genjutsu. .
> 
> Deidara is going to be happy to "prove" he's immune to Sharingan Genjutsu and won't look away from Itachi's eyes.
> 
> ...


If you look at the very next page, it was pointed out *that no genjutsu was used*, read the whole thing or don't cite it as evidence.
The databook even points out he's apparently immune to Sharingan genjutsu.

Deidara's C2 tagged a CS2 Sasuke. That's fast enough to hit Itachi. And Sasuke himself said he only escaped C4 by FLYING. Seeing the bombs doesn't mean Itachi can escape. And he uses Kage Bunshins? Thanks for halving your chakra. And C0 blocked by Susanoo when it couldn't fully tank Kirin? Please. Say Itachi sees the chakra cloud. He can't fly, he still breathes? He dies. Sasuke didn't walk 'around it.'


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Someone already posted it at the first page.
> 
> Wrong. CS2 makes Sasuke faster AND grants him the ability to fly.
> 
> ...



U R the 1 that is makin things up 
Ive given proof y Itachi would win

Show me where in the manga that CS2 is faster than Itachi and ill believe u but u have no proof

U said Sasuke countered everything he threw at him
Whats 2 say Itachi wouldn't juss avoid everything Deidara throws at him?

It was a genjutsu but Itachi can make crow clones w/o genjutsu

And he can reappear thru crow clones in the air so basically.... HE CAN FLY


Ur right he was faked out by snake summon which is worse than being faked out by genjutsu
So Itachi juss fakes his death n wen Deidara thinks he's won he hit him with Amaterusu or Susanoo

Ur right Amaterusu is short range 
It can go up to 5 meters
What did Sasuke have that was 5 meters?
Chidori Saber
And Deidara was barely out of his range

So if Itachi were 2 stand in a tree and use Amaterusu
It would hit Deidara

Susanoo has unlimited range
Look at the distance between Itachi and Oro wen he attacked him
And look at the length of that sword

The sword went thru the snake n still had plenty of length left

Now look at Deidara's distance from Sasuke in their fight



First of all, he gonna wanna stay a little close cuz his bombs will be a little more accurate the closer he is 2 guide them

If he gets that close 2 Itachi, I have no doubt Susanoo will hit him
If he is anywhere at the same distance he was from Sasuke in their fight, he will get tagged

Itachi wins


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## Watermelon Lover (May 15, 2010)

Karl said:


> Itachi outlasted Sasuke and he did Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o in one battle. And you think that he wont be able to see some chakra colors..? Or do the same that Sasuke did with C4?




I think would have a hard time discerning microscopic bombs to begin with. We saw his vision after he used Tsukiyomi. If he starts throwing around MS jutsu he won't be able to see much of anything.

...and he has no raiton affinity, so no- he wouldn't be able to counter C4.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> U R the 1 that is makin things up
> Ive given proof y Itachi would win


You are making up evidence for Itachi to win.


> Show me where in the manga that CS2 is faster than Itachi and ill believe u but u have no proof


Since he has better speed feats than Itachi? And was keeping up with Itachi? And outran the fucking Amaterasu in CS2?


> U said Sasuke countered everything he threw at him
> Whats 2 say Itachi wouldn't juss avoid everything Deidara throws at him?


Since he's going blind and doesn't have as accurate vision that Sasuke did? And he lacks summons and raiton.


> It was a genjutsu but Itachi can make crow clones w/o genjutsu
> 
> And he can reappear thru crow clones in the air so basically.... HE CAN FLY


No, he really can't. And Deidara can see through it anyway.


> Ur right he was faked out by snake summon which is worse than being faked out by genjutsu
> So Itachi juss fakes his death n wen Deidara thinks he's won he hit him with Amaterusu or Susanoo


1. Itachi can't summon, thus he can't fool Deidara. And his genjutsu won't work.
2. Won't work. Deidara has knowledge on them remember?
Ur right Amaterusu is short range 
It can go up to 5 meters


> What did Sasuke have that was 5 meters?
> Chidori Saber
> And Deidara was barely out of his range
> 
> ...


Doesn't work that way. Chidori Eiso can extend its range up to five meters and Deidara was comfortably out of range while flying low. And Amaterasu doesn't work that way. 


> Susanoo has unlimited range
> Look at the distance between Itachi and Oro wen he attacked him
> And look at the length of that sword
> 
> The sword went thru the snake n still had plenty of length left


1. No, it doesn't. Its easy to get out of the range.
2. You mean the same Orochimaru who stood their laughing because of PIS and Itachi hit him?
3. Deidara can fly higher than 100 meters, dude.



> Now look at Deidara's distance from Sasuke in their fight
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, he gonna wanna stay a little close cuz his bombs will be a little more accurate the closer he is 2 guide them


You do know he has a telescope over his right eye and can guide the bombs that way? 


> If he gets that close 2 Itachi, I have no doubt Susanoo will hit him
> If he is anywhere at the same distance he was from Sasuke in their fight, he will get tagged
> 
> Itachi wins


No, he loses. Itachi can't even outlast him and is already nearly blind.


----------



## Shay (May 15, 2010)

Regrads,

Yeah, Itachi is at a severe disadvantage here, elementally, knowledgewise, and tactically.

I'm afraid that without a lightning affinity, there's nothing stopping Deidara from just having his way with Itachi and getting his revenge. Itachi has no way to shoot Deidara down, to my recollection, and Deidara has demonstrated immunity to Sharingan genjutsu.

He can guide his explosives at extreme ranges, and Itachi requires close-mid range to land a kill. Deidara has all the tools he needs to maintain this far distance, to stay safe.

Thank you for your time,
~Shay


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You are making up evidence for Itachi to win.
> 
> Since he has better speed feats than Itachi? And was keeping up with Itachi? And outran the fucking Amaterasu in CS2?
> 
> ...



No. Im stating pure manga fact unlike u

Speed: Sasuke-4.5  Itachi-5 
Sasuke is slower
This is the same Amateurusu that burned a wall in less than a second
He wasnt tryin 2 hurt Sasuke
Itachi planned 2 lose

I said Itachi could avoid, not counter everything Deidara through at him

He can appear rite in front of Deidara w/ those crows just like this

Sasuke couldn't see it comin how would Deidara?

He can't fool Deidara w/ a shadow clone?
Last time I checked he already did



It doesn't matter if u have knowledge if u r caught off guard u can still b beat

Explain how Amaterusu doesn't work that way? If Deidara is in range, he will get hit.

I may have overexaggerated Susanoos range
My point is if he is the same distance from Itachi as he was from Sasuke, he will be hit by either Amaterusu or Susanoo


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> No. Im stating pure manga fact unlike u


No, you're not using pure manga fact.


> Speed: Sasuke-4.5  Itachi-5
> Sasuke is slower
> This is the same Amateurusu that burned a wall in less than a second
> He wasnt tryin 2 hurt Sasuke
> Itachi planned 2 lose


You do know that _base_ speed right? Using the Cursed Seal, he's much faster. We've seen this multiple times. 

And Itachi, whose nearly blind, avoiding Deidara's jutsus?


> I said Itachi could avoid, not counter everything Deidara through at him


He's nearly blind. How can he avoid Deidara's jutsus? Especially the extremely fast ones?


> He can appear rite in front of Deidara w/ those crows just like this
> 
> Sasuke couldn't see it comin how would Deidara?


Since the starting distance is not that close and not only that, that was GENJUTSU.


> He can't fool Deidara w/ a shadow clone?
> Last time I checked he already did
> 
> 
> ...


Since Shadow Clones don't work that way. And Itachi would have trouble even SEEING the micro bombs.


> Explain how Amaterusu doesn't work that way? If Deidara is in range, he will get hit.


Amaterasu has a range of LESS than five meters and is a short ranged ninjutsu. It can't be used like Chidori Eiso.


> I may have overexaggerated Susanoos range
> My point is if he is the same distance from Itachi as he was from Sasuke, he will be hit by either Amaterusu or Susanoo


What's stopping him from fighting from the distance he was with Gaara?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 15, 2010)

I'll have to agree with SuperSaiyan and Shay with this one.

Itachi is at a horrible disadvantage and will probably lose.

With the distance being as long as 50m Deidara should easily be able to get into the air. Unfortunately for Itachi, none of his jutsu apart from a few Mangekyou ones can even reach Deidara in the air. He could possibly Genjutsu him before he does so, but Deidara's Genjutsu defenses are extremely high, considering he trained so long just so he would be immune to him. With the lack of a Raiton affinity he can't deactivate any of his bombs too, so even if he manages to survive the C1/C2 wave. Odds are, he won't survive a C4 or a C3. He doesn't have the stamina to constantly dodge Deidara's bombs and attack back either.


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## Goobtachi (May 15, 2010)

An incomplete Susano'o protected Sasuke from the acid mist.
An inferior genjutsu specialist(sasuke), compared to itachi, fooled Deidara...
and Itachi can't survive C4??


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## Watermelon Lover (May 15, 2010)

I wouldn't say that Sasuke is inferior to Itachi in genjutsu. After all, he broke Tsukiyomi without an MS sharingan- something that amazed Itachi and was thought to be impossible.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 15, 2010)

Sasuke never fooled Deidara with Genjutsu. The first time, Deidara saw through it and planted a clay Bushin. The second time, Sasuke never used a Genjutsu.

Incomplete Susano-o never protected him. It melted his skin and Itachi can't survive C4 since it basically kills anything that breathes. The only defense for it is Susano-o and Itachi can't hold that for long.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, you're not using pure manga fact.
> 
> 
> You do know that _base_ speed right? Using the Cursed Seal, he's much faster. We've seen this multiple times.
> ...



I posted a link from the manga 4 every one of my arguments. Pure manga fact.

But he still is not faster than Itachi and you havent proven it.

What extremely fast ones?

It doesn't matter. Crows can fly. 
It wasn't genjutsu it was the Crow clone Technique


What way? You're not being specific

Short range is at or less than 5 meters meaning 5 meters is the max. And as long as Itachi can see Deidara at that distance, he can hit him.

He will have no chance of hitting Itachi at that distance, even w/ a telescope Itachi is 2 fast


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 15, 2010)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> I posted a link from the manga 4 every one of my arguments. Pure manga fact.
> 
> But he still is not faster than Itachi and you havent proven it.


Sasuke is moving  extremely fast in CS2, as fast as Itachi from what we've seen.


> What extremely fast ones?


 


> It doesn't matter. Crows can fly.
> It wasn't genjutsu it was the Crow clone Technique


Fair enough. But what's the range of it? And not only that, can a Clone even DO MS jutsus? Giving how Shoten Itachi wasn't able to.


[quote[Short range is at or less than 5 meters meaning 5 meters is the max. And as long as Itachi can see Deidara at that distance, he can hit him.[/quote]
Itachi can't hit Deidara, he'll be too far above the ground.


> He will have no chance of hitting Itachi at that distance, even w/ a telescope Itachi is 2 fast


He hit Gaara who was all the way on the other side of the village. As well as those ANBU guarding him.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (May 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, you're not using pure manga fact.
> 
> You do know that _base_ speed right? Using the Cursed Seal, he's much faster. We've seen this multiple times.
> 
> ...





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke is moving  extremely fast in CS2, as fast as Itachi from what we've seen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/quote]


Even tho he's moving extremely fast, has he been shown 2 b this fast?




Crow clones have unlimited range as they can fly
Shouten Itachi used a genjutsu, not a crow clone
And since he has shown the ability 2 do Tsukynomi thru it 



He prolly could use MS jutsu thru it


Thats what the crow clone is 4

The ANBU weren't payin attention, Itachi will be


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## machiavelli2009 (May 15, 2010)

erm again itachi wins this, though OP put him at a serve disadvantage....it is obvious why
to make it more fair
but even then...itachi still wins..if sasuke was able to get to deidara by jumping on his sword then using his wing and then extending his sword to get to deidara
itachi will find a way to get to deidara...again sasuke did get to deidara rite?
i didnt see deidara 100m in the air
also genjutsu defense doest equal the ability to counter tskuyomi....different level entirely 
and itachi gen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sasuke gen
so there are no mines placed on the floor, c2 wont even be used people
c2 objective is to box the enemy in, deidara explained it
someone needs to plant the mines...its a one on one here so c2 wont even be in the picture
so c1, that couldnt hurt sasuke point blank
c3 that susanoo would defend against 
and c4 that all itachi has to do is run out of its range and wait quietly 
he can obviously gen to fake his death, i dont see how hard that can be
he doesnt have to jump over it, he can move away from it....
its a dome of chakra moving towards the enemy rite...
itachi is quick on his feat
and the DB aint all that reliable, in the book it says genjutsu has a 5-10 range
sasuke uses it from further away doesnt he???
im not gonna even tell you how nicely, ama is gonna burn deidara
naruto got to deidara while deidara was in the air rite???though he was distracted by kakashi, the point is still that someone on foot can get to him
what stops itachi from using his gen that>>>>>>>>>>>>>sasuke gen to distract deidara while he tries to attack deidara. itach gets a foot hold on a tree..or even better uses gen to lure deidara towards the trees, then attacks deidara when deidara is well in range
if deidara admitted to being weaker than a person with puppets and much slower attack, itachi isnt loosing to deidara


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## Bloo (May 15, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> erm again itachi wins this, though OP put him at a serve disadvantage....it is obvious why
> to make it more fair
> but even then...itachi still wins..if sasuke was able to get to deidara by jumping on his sword then using his wing and then extending his sword to get to deidara
> itachi will find a way to get to deidara...again sasuke did get to deidara rite?
> ...



People tend to believe that because Deidara said that he trained himself to counter genjutsu, that equates to all genjutsu. Not genjutsu except for tsukuyomi, which anyone with common sense should be able to contemplate that this is true, that tsukuyomi(especially one cast by Itachi) will work irregardless to how you trained yourself.



Watermelon Lover said:


> I wouldn't say that Sasuke is inferior to Itachi in genjutsu. After all, he broke Tsukiyomi without an MS sharingan- something that amazed Itachi and was thought to be impossible.



I wouldn't consider breaking out of a much weaker tsukuyomi cast by someone who's trying to lose and wasn't hoping to harm sasuke, as a very strong point in this argument.


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## Watermelon Lover (May 16, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> I wouldn't consider breaking out of a much weaker tsukuyomi cast by someone who's trying to lose and wasn't hoping to harm sasuke, as a very strong point in this argument.



What qualifies this verison as weaker? As far as I can tell, this is the same illusion that blasted both Sasuke and Kakashi into a coma.


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## Jinnobi (May 16, 2010)

Except Itachi didn't try to torture Sasuke like he did Kakashi.


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## Watermelon Lover (May 16, 2010)

You don't qualify that kind of psychological abuse as torture? It culminated in a coma the same as Kakashi's abuse.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 16, 2010)

Yeah because watching your parents get continuously killed isn't torture, right?


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## Jinnobi (May 16, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Yeah because watching your parents get continuously killed isn't torture, right?



Read the discussion again please.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 16, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> erm again itachi wins this, though OP put him at a serve disadvantage....it is obvious why
> to make it more fair
> but even then...itachi still wins..if sasuke was able to get to deidara by jumping on his sword then using his wing and then extending his sword to get to deidara
> itachi will find a way to get to deidara...again sasuke did get to deidara rite?
> i didnt see deidara 100m in the air



Just because Hebi Sasuke managed to do so, doesn't mean Itachi can. They are two completely different characters. Sasuke is heavily Ninjutsu orientated and Itachi is Genjutsu orientated. He has no jutsu that can reach Deidara once he gets into the air and has no way to reach him either.



> also genjutsu defense doest equal the ability to counter tskuyomi....different level entirely



How is Itachi going to land a Tsukuyomi on him?



> ]so there are no mines placed on the floor, c2 wont even be used people
> c2 objective is to box the enemy in, deidara explained it



No. Those are C2 mines. There are other C2s, the ones that the C2 dragon uses. The _guided_ C2 missiles. 



> c3 that susanoo would defend against



Would Itachi know of it's power? Because if he doesn't, I doubt he'd use his Susano-o. Also, Itachi can't sustain Susano-o for long.



> and c4 that all itachi has to do is run out of its range and wait quietly
> he can obviously gen to fake his death, i dont see how hard that can be
> he doesnt have to jump over it, he can move away from it....



You can't just run away from C4 Garuda. It's range is too big, even for Itachi. He isn't going to be able to run, jump or hide away from it.

And Genjutsu isn't going to work on someone who specifically trained his eye to _counter_ Itachi's Genjutsu.



> its a dome of chakra moving towards the enemy rite...
> itachi is quick on his feat
> and the DB aint all that reliable, in the book it says genjutsu has a 5-10 range
> sasuke uses it from further away doesnt he???



C4 is a bunch of invinsible bombs that go inside anything organisim that _breathes_. It's range is too big for Itachi to run from. 

And no, Sasuke used the Genjutsu at a range of about 10m or something IIRC. He managed to fly towards Deidara's range with CS2 and then Genjutsu him or something.



> im not gonna even tell you how nicely, ama is gonna burn deidara
> naruto got to deidara while deidara was in the air rite???



Very _low_ in the air. He was also preoccupied with the lack of his two arms and how Kakashi was attempting to warp away his head. I'm pretty sure anyone could get to him under those circumstances. Unfortunately, in this match Deidara isn't going to fly low and has both of his arms and actually has clay to attack.



> though he was distracted by kakashi, the point is still that someone on foot can get to him



Again, much different. Deidara was tired as hell. He was standing still for two straight days, out of Chakra and clay from his fight against Gaara and was missing two arms.




Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Crow clones have unlimited range as they can fly
> Shouten Itachi used a genjutsu, not a crow clone
> And since he has shown the ability 2 do Tsukynomi thru it
> 
> ...



I honestly don't think Crows are going to be able to capture Deidara when even Gaara in the freakin' _desert_ couldn't. And it's the general consensus that Gaara in Desert= "LOLOL UR SCRUWED". 

And until scans appear of Crows using the Mangekyou, I won't believe it.




Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Short range is at or less than 5 meters meaning 5 meters is the max. And as long as Itachi can see Deidara at that distance, he can hit him.



Or alternatively, Deidara can block his view with a nice big guided C2 missile or he can fly higher than 5m(which I'm pretty sure he would do as an IC action...).



> He will have no chance of hitting Itachi at that distance, even w/ a telescope Itachi is 2 fast



Itachi doesn't have unlimited stamina, eventually he'll tire out and get hit. Or Deidara will get tired of trying to hit him and just finish him off with a C4 or a C3.


----------



## machiavelli2009 (May 16, 2010)

wow the mere fact is people on foot have gotten to deidara
deidara admitted to being weaker than sasori
how does sasori get to someone 100m in the air???
he cant because deidara wont be 100m in the air, he hasnt fought anyone that high up in the air while that person was on foot
against sasuke he was about 5-10 m up in the air, which means itachi can get to him
kakashi has sharingan, but that didnt help him against itachi genjutsu
sharingan is a genjutsu counter all together
and countering sasuke who is much less efficient at it doesnt mean he can counter itachi
danzo talked about the difference between their genjutsu abilities
and if deidara is 5-10 m in the air itachi can tskuyomi him to hell
deidara only fought gaara that high cuz, garra could keep up. gaara levitated in the air as well. notice that in the diedara gaara fight deidara wasnt dropping bombs from above
deidara isnt the all im gonna be at 100m and drop the world on you
he hasnt done that before thus, all of you ignorantly saying that he will fly 100m in the air and drop c3 and what not are just fan biased
he didnt do that against sasuke why???
did any of you ever think that diedara bomb to have a range
or did that escape your fanfic minds
note: deidara can not use c2 by himself, the whole idea behind it is to box the enemy in
why didnt he use c2 against gaara??? he used c1 which is much weaker and c3 as a diversion
why not c2?? cuz he was by himself, and the enemy could levitate
anywayz...itachi doesnt need knowledge on an enemy, sasuke had none and won
itachi would instantly tell, that deidara uses doton. and he can outrun c4....c4 isnt instantaneous and has a range( a huge cloud of chakra, hard to miss esp if your eyes see chakra) . itachi can escape it


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## sexy no jutsu (May 16, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> wow the mere fact is people on foot have gotten to deidara
> deidara admitted to being weaker than sasori
> how does sasori get to someone 100m in the air???



Sasori has Satetsu, which can be manipulated over a distance. Also, Sasori uses projectiles for his attacks. One scratch and Deidara is dead. But this match isn't about Deidara vs Sasori, its Deidara vs Itachi. Itachi has not shown any long range techniques that can take out Deidara. Deidara flies, Itachi dies.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 16, 2010)

again fan biased and ignorant talk
deidara flew sasuke didnt die
itachi can use genjutsu to alter deidara perception of reality and ultimately kill deidara
itachi isnt loosing to deidara
deidara cnt drop bombs from 100 m above....
i explain this already...
his bombs have a range


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## Atlantic Storm (May 16, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> wow the mere fact is people on foot have gotten to deidara



Like I said. Deidara was extremely tired(he was standing still for two straight days), out of Chakra, couldn't attack due to lack of clay, missing two damn arms and he was too busy trying not to get his head warped off. Not to mention the fact he was _purposely_ flying low to lure Naruto.

Anyone could get to Deidara under those circumstances.



> he cant because deidara wont be 100m in the air, he hasnt fought anyone that high up in the air while that person was on foot



No one ever said 100m(well I didn't anyway). Just out of his range.



> against sasuke he was about 5-10 m up in the air, which means itachi can get to him





That isn't 5-10 metres in the air.
Also note the power and range of _one_ C2 missile.



> kakashi has sharingan, but that didnt help him against itachi genjutsu
> sharingan is a genjutsu counter all together



No, Sharingan helps you realize your in a Genjutsu. It doesn't automatically break you out. Besides, it was Tsukuyomi that Kakashi was in.



> deidara only fought gaara that high cuz, garra could keep up. gaara levitated in the air as well. notice that in the diedara gaara fight deidara wasnt dropping bombs from above



What? This makes no sense...Deidara fought Gaara that high in the air because it's IC for Deidara to fly that high in the air. Not because Gaara could keep up. And Deidara didn't drop bombs from above because Gaara could fly at the same altitude as Deidara.



> note: deidara can not use c2 by himself, the whole idea behind it is to box the enemy in



Yes he can.





> why didnt he use c2 against gaara??? he used c1 which is much weaker and c3 as a diversion



Because he didn't want to kill Gaara.



> itachi would instantly tell, that deidara uses doton.



Yeah because he totally saw Kakashi Doton, right?



> and he can outrun c4....c4 isnt instantaneous and has a range( a huge cloud of chakra, hard to miss esp if your eyes see chakra) . itachi can escape it





Do you really think he can escape from something that big, when it can actually _chase_ you too?


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## sexy no jutsu (May 16, 2010)

machiavelli2009 said:


> again fan biased and ignorant talk
> deidara flew sasuke didnt die
> itachi can use genjutsu to alter deidara perception of reality and ultimately kill deidara
> itachi isnt loosing to deidara
> ...



Sasuke was also able to fly. But most importantly Sasuke has raiton affinity, Itachi doesn't.

Itachi's regular genjutsu's wont work against Deidara. Tsukiyomi would require eye contact.

Itachi will lose to Deidara. He has no ranged attacks. He has no way of diffusing Deidara's bombs. Susano'o wont protect him from C4.

Stoping making up shit. What makes you think Deidara can't drop bombs from up above? All Deidara ever does is drop bombs from the sky.


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## Tengu (May 16, 2010)

Again
Itachi was able to block Kirin with ribbed version Susanoó, so Sasanoó can protect him from C3.


And for C4, he can just avoid it, as Sasuke said he can see the bombs with the sharingan and avoiding them is simple.


As for C1 and C2 h can just dodge them, as he has a 5 in speed after all(only Gai besides him has a 5 in speed).
As for ranged attacks:

Itachi jumped very high there, before using the katon, his jump with the katon will get in Deidara's range.

And he also has Tsukuiomy, Itachi wins.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 16, 2010)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> And for C4, he can just avoid it, as Sasuke said he can see the bombs with the sharingan and avoiding them is simple.
> 
> 
> And he also has Tsukuiomy, Itachi wins.



Sasuke didn't really escape from C4. The first C4 was a decoy, Sasuke only got out of the blast range because Deidara wanted him to.

Also, Sasuke never had Susano'o when he faced Deidara. Hence he tried to escape the blast range before C4 detonated. Itachi on the other hand would would activate Susano'o expecting a massive explosion when he sees the massive bomb (remember he has no knowledge about C4). And when C4 detonates near him, it would be too late for Itachi to get out of range even if he can distinguish the nano sized bombs by their chakra color.

Tsukiyomi requires eyes contact, something Itachi wont get when Deidara is flying far above him.

Deidara wins.


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## Tengu (May 16, 2010)

sexy no jutsu said:


> Sasuke didn't really escape from C4. The first C4 was a decoy, Sasuke only got out of the blast range because Deidara wanted him to.



That makes no sense whatsoever, Deidara wanted to kill Sasuke,why let him go if he could kill him then, you only assume that the first was a decoy.


sexy no jutsu said:


> Also, Sasuke never had Susano'o when he faced Deidara. Hence he tried to escape the blast range before C4 detonated. Itachi on the other hand would would activate Susano'o expecting a massive explosion when he sees the massive bomb (remember he has no knowledge about C4). And when C4 detonates near him, it would be too late for Itachi to get out of range even if he can distinguish the nano sized bombs by their chakra color.


I can also make a scenario where Deidara falls of his bird and die, but that's not gonna happen.




sexy no jutsu said:


> Tsukiyomi requires eyes contact, something Itachi wont get when Deidara is flying far above him.
> 
> Deidara wins.



Strangely enough he was staring in Sasuke's eyes here:

Itachi wins.


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## sexy no jutsu (May 16, 2010)

KUKU_nr8 said:


> That makes no sense whatsoever, Deidara wanted to kill Sasuke,why let him go if he could kill him then, you only assume that the first was a decoy.



The first C4 was a decoy. Deidara was expecting Sasuke to escape the first one and made a clay bunshin to trap him. 



KUKU_nr8 said:


> I can also make a scenario where Deidara falls of his bird and die, but that's not gonna happen.




True, the chances of that happening are next to zero. My scenario however is more realistic. What makes you think Itachi would run for his life instead of just trying to tank it using Susano'o?




KUKU_nr8 said:


> Strangely enough he was staring in Sasuke's eyes here:
> 
> Itachi wins.



Deidara has full knowledge on Itachi, he knows that Itachi is a genjutsu master. Not gonna happen.

Itachi wins? How may I ask? Itachi hasn't shown any ranged attacks capable of taking out Deidara.


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## Vergil642 (May 16, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If you look at the very next page, it was pointed out *that no genjutsu was used*, read the whole thing or don't cite it as evidence.
> The databook even points out he's apparently immune to Sharingan genjutsu.



Apparently=/=is. 

Oh and in the  Deidara is saying "shit, this is actually real, he actually fooled me". How to make it clearer...he's expressing the obvious fact that Sasuke lamping him isn't an illusion and is in fact real.

The whole "Sharingan eyes" thing is in keeping with the various showings of Sharingan Genjutsu at this time too. In fact, it's exactly the same as the last time Deidara got Genjutsu'd by Sasuke.

Just wondering, if a Genjutsu wasn't used then  despite Sasuke having ?



> Deidara's C2 tagged a CS2 Sasuke. That's fast enough to hit Itachi. And Sasuke himself said he only escaped C4 by FLYING. Seeing the bombs doesn't mean Itachi can escape. And he uses Kage Bunshins? Thanks for halving your chakra. And C0 blocked by Susanoo when it couldn't fully tank Kirin? Please. Say Itachi sees the chakra cloud. He can't fly, he still breathes? He dies. Sasuke didn't walk 'around it.'



Deidara's C2 tagged...oh, sorry...was  by _base_ Sasuke. . The only time CS2 Sasuke got hit was when movement was impossible without setting off a mine. Flying is an option but it would appear Sasuke's flight speed isn't as great as his ground movement speed, or perhaps his injured wing would be incapable flight. Regardless, these are hypothetical explanations as to why someone apparently flight capable who can evade C2 bombs couldn't evade one despite having his speed upped by a vast margin.

Also, if you could please show me a scan where Sasuke says he only escaped by flying I'd be most appreciative. After all, the manga I'm reading has . 

Fortunately for Itachi, he can use Karasu Bunshins (KBs ) which require less chakra so sayeth the DB. 

Of course, Susanoo couldn't tank CO if it had _just been activated_ as he did with Kirin. Seeing as Deidara takes a good few seconds to actually asplode, activating Susanoo in that time, fully activating it that is, would be a simple matter. Or Itachi might incinerate him with Amaterasu before he gets the chance to actually explode, or seal him with the Sword of Totsuka before exploding.

This is assuming Itachi lets Deidara take off his shirt, open up his chest mouth, ram clay into it, all without wtfpwining him with a blitz (Itachi>Sasuke in speed, Deidara _barely_ evaded Sasuke), Genjutsu or whatever.

And of course Sasuke didn't walk around the cloud. He ran


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Apparently=/=is.
> 
> Oh and in the  Deidara is saying "shit, this is actually real, he actually fooled me". How to make it clearer...he's expressing the obvious fact that Sasuke lamping him isn't an illusion and is in fact real.
> The whole "Sharingan eyes" thing is in keeping with the various showings of Sharingan Genjutsu at this time too. In fact, it's exactly the same as the last time Deidara got Genjutsu'd by Sasuke.
> ...


Deidara said there wasn't any genjutsu. Not only that, he diffused the explosives IN HIMSELF, not in the snakes. It provided the perfect decoy to cat Deidara off guard. 






> Deidara's C2 tagged...oh, sorry...was  by _base_ Sasuke. . The only time CS2 Sasuke got hit was when movement was impossible without setting off a mine. Flying is an option but it would appear Sasuke's flight speed isn't as great as his ground movement speed, or perhaps his injured wing would be incapable flight. Regardless, these are hypothetical explanations as to why someone apparently flight capable who can evade C2 bombs couldn't evade one despite having his speed upped by a vast margin.


Vergil, Sasuke himself said Deidara's first few C2 were only playing with him. When Deidara used 'the big one' Sasuke couldn't dodge and had to block. And Sasuke points out the way he evaded it was SEEING WHERE DEIDARA WAS FLYING ABOVE THE DOME, meaning he flew.


> Also, if you could please show me a scan where Sasuke says he only escaped by flying I'd be most appreciative. After all, the manga I'm reading has .


Yeah, he saw the big cloud and avoided the chakra cloud via flying, which Itachi can't do. Not only that, the first C4 was a DECOY


> Fortunately for Itachi, he can use Karasu Bunshins (KBs ) which require less chakra so sayeth the DB.


It still splits his chakra to make a clone, not only that, they can't use MS techniques and normal genjutsu will not work.


> Of course, Susanoo couldn't tank CO if it had _just been activated_ as he did with Kirin. Seeing as Deidara takes a good few seconds to actually asplode, activating Susanoo in that time, fully activating it that is, would be a simple matter. Or Itachi might incinerate him with Amaterasu before he gets the chance to actually explode, or seal him with the Sword of Totsuka before exploding.


Deidara doesn't even have to use C0 to shatter Susano'o. A city-busting C3, which is on a much higher level of power than the Kirin, would be more than enough. And Itachi doesn't take that much time to fully form the Susano'o, you just don't want to admit that even with the Yata Mirror, it fully formed, and fell to Kirin since that would make Itachi not Invincible.


> This is assuming Itachi lets Deidara take off his shirt, open up his chest mouth, ram clay into it, all without wtfpwining him with a blitz (Itachi>Sasuke in speed, Deidara _barely_ evaded Sasuke), Genjutsu or whatever.


Why are you even talking about C0? Deidara will not need it at all. 


> And of course Sasuke didn't walk around the cloud. He ran


Sasuke FLEW. How do you expect 


Itachi loses. His genjutsu is worthless, he lacks long range attacks, and he can't beat Deidara once he gets into the air, Nikushimi's Successor.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 16, 2010)

the only way itachi wins is with a crow bushin fient other then that he loses,diedara has full knowledge wont make eye contact, and can run from susano, and with ama restricted i realy cant see itachi winning, on the other hand itachi still has a slim chance of winning but can prolly pull it off with a crow bushing genjutsu, followed by amatarasu.


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## Vergil642 (May 16, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Deidara said there wasn't any genjutsu. Not only that, he diffused the explosives IN HIMSELF, not in the snakes. It provided the perfect decoy to cat Deidara off guard.



So why is it there's them big Sharingans behind him immediately prior to getting punched? The snakes were a part of Sasuke at that time just as the remaining CS2 wing was; they would have had the benefit of having the bombs in them diffused too.

Deidara's statement is in itself ambigous. "This time it isn't a Genjutsu" can refer to a number of things, although I would argue the most likely is that he's referring to the fact that last time Sasuke Genjutsu'd him into believing he'd been hit by C4 (as in, had the bombs inside him). This time however Deidara knows Sasuke had the C4 bombs within him. Ergo he's saying "this time he didn't fool me into believing he'd had the bombs within him". This also fits in well with the fact that Sasuke used an amped Genjutsu through the CS2 boost, the snake heads shouldn't have been disintegrated as the bombs inside them should have been diffused and the fact the big Sharingans appeared behind Deidara, _signifying a Genjutsu had been used._



> Vergil, Sasuke himself said Deidara's first few C2 were only playing with him. When Deidara used 'the big one' Sasuke couldn't dodge and had to block. And Sasuke points out the way he evaded it was SEEING WHERE DEIDARA WAS FLYING ABOVE THE DOME, meaning he flew.



He didn't say that at all. Sasuke didn't point out the way he evaded it was flying over the dome, he pointed out that as Deidara was above the dome it indicated the dome was dangerous. 



> Yeah, he saw the big cloud and avoided the chakra cloud via flying, which Itachi can't do. Not only that, the first C4 was a DECOY







> It still splits his chakra to make a clone, not only that, they can't use MS techniques and normal genjutsu will not work.



MS jutsu aren't necessarily needed, not least when Karasu Bunshins are best used as distractions or otherwise in combination with basic jutsu. And they can use Genjutsu, it was a Karasu Bunshin that Genjutsu'd Naruto just before Itachi and Sasuke fought. It was a Karasu Bunshin that _gave Naruto a portion of Itachi's power_ or whatever that crowjob really was.

Karasu Bunshins are basically KBs, except less chakra expensive and the crows they dissipate into appear to be able to Genjutsu you as well.



> Deidara doesn't even have to use C0 to shatter Susano'o. A city-busting C3, which is on a much higher level of power than the Kirin, would be more than enough. And Itachi doesn't take that much time to fully form the Susano'o, you just don't want to admit that even with the Yata Mirror, it fully formed, and fell to Kirin since that would make Itachi not Invincible.



C3#18 spreads out over a larger area, Kirin is a focused attack that reduces mounds of earth and rock the size of the hill thing the Uchiha Hideout was on to rubble. Completely destroying them.

Please desist from silly accusations. Susanoo does come out very fast, but read the manga. You can see  that Susanoo is not activated as Kirin is striking/on the verge of doing so. Itachi therefore had a fraction of a second, potentially less than 100th of a second, to pull Susanoo up. There's nothing indicating Susanoo can be pulled out that fast simply because it's never been pulled out just as the user is about to be struck by lightning.

And don't be absurd, Itachi's not invincible even with Susanoo fully active. He's just about as close anyone's got so far that's all 



> Why are you even talking about C0? Deidara will not need it at all.



C3#18 can't break Susanoo, CO's his only shot.



> Sasuke FLEW. How do you expect
> 
> 
> Itachi loses. His genjutsu is worthless, he lacks long range attacks, and he can't beat Deidara once he gets into the air, Nikushimi's Successor.



Sasuke is flying to get to Deidara. This is not proof he _had_ to fly to evade the cloud. Logically there's no reason running away won't work. It's just a big invisible cloud. As long as you don't fall inside it you're fine. It can make it hard for Itachi to attack Deidara as Deidara can just hover above it, but isn't that hard to avoid if you can see chakra. Anyone with a Byakugan and some intelligence can do it for example.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 16, 2010)

> So why is it there's them big Sharingans behind him immediately prior to getting punched? The snakes were a part of Sasuke at that time just as the remaining CS2 wing was; they would have had the benefit of having the bombs in them diffused too.


The snakes do not share a body. He just summoned them to  take care of his wing. His Raikiri is seen going through him and only him. Otherwise, Sasuke's Genjutsu was just...a disintegrating snake. That's kind of a crappy genjutsu when he should've shown him a disintegrating Sasuke. Not only that, Sasuke would've known to hold his breath after frying himself. The snakes wouldn't have
And the Sharingans are nothing more than an effect. Any evidence those signify Genjutsu? Because I don't recall them being used to signify Genjutsu when Itachi fought Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Naruto, or Kakashi...



> Deidara's statement is in itself ambigous. "This time it isn't a Genjutsu" can refer to a number of things, although I would argue the most likely is that he's referring to the fact that last time Sasuke Genjutsu'd him into believing he'd been hit by C4 (as in, had the bombs inside him). This time however Deidara knows Sasuke had the C4 bombs within him. Ergo he's saying "this time he didn't fool me into believing he'd had the bombs within him". This also fits in well with the fact that Sasuke used an amped Genjutsu through the CS2 boost, the snake heads shouldn't have been disintegrated as the bombs inside them should have been diffused and the fact the big Sharingans appeared behind Deidara, signifying a Genjutsu had been used.


Other translations also have it was there was no genjutsu. Deidara stated clearly there wasn't any genjutsu and you thinking the Sharingan effect means Genjutsu is your unsupported interpretation alone. Also, Sasuke used a Genjutsu in the CS2 form the first time-and there's no evidence that the CS2 bolsters genjutsu in manga that I know of, given the Sharingan effect was also shown when Sasuke was in the CS2 form and flying. Not only that, when he's falling, deidara is looking at Sasuke with his ANTI GENJUTSU EYE right there. The one the databook pretty much said makes him immune to the Sharingan's genjutsu.





> He didn't say that at all. Sasuke didn't point out the way he evaded it was flying over the dome, he pointed out that as Deidara was above the dome it indicated the dome was dangerous.


He said he saw where the barrier ended by seeing where Deidara was flying when speficially telling Deidara how he AVOIDED IT. What does that say to you?




> And the second?


Is that C4? No. And Sasuke himself notes that was just Deidara playing with him. When he thinks Deidara was just making sure he could hit him, he's in the CS2 form, which he assumed when he hit the mine





> MS jutsu aren't necessarily needed, not least when Karasu Bunshins are best used as distractions or otherwise in combination with basic jutsu. And they can use Genjutsu, it was a Karasu Bunshin that Genjutsu'd Naruto just before Itachi and Sasuke fought. It was a Karasu Bunshin that gave Naruto a portion of Itachi's power or whatever that crowjob really was.


It's a damn shame that Deidara trained against Itachi's genjutsu specifically and your only theory is "Oh, sasuke used the CS2 form to bolster it" which Itachi, last I checked, doesn't have. Itachi is fighting ICly besides and Karasu bunshin are still bunshin, meaning they use up an even distribution of chakra, would have a damn hard time reaching a flying opponent. and Deidara ICly will use C4 right off.



> Karasu Bunshins are basically KBs, except less chakra expensive and the crows they dissipate into appear to be able to Genjutsu you as well.


Your extrapolation alone on the latter. And Itachi would just start off with sharingan genjutsu at any rate




> C3#18 spreads out over a larger area, Kirin is a focused attack that reduces mounds of earth and rock the size of the hill thing the Uchiha Hideout was on to rubble. Completely destroying them.


Yeah, a lot of it was kinda still there. the blast didn't touch Sasuke and Zetsu.


> Please desist from silly accusations. Susanoo does come out very fast, but read the manga. You can see here that Susanoo is not activated as Kirin is striking/on the verge of doing so. Itachi therefore had a fraction of a second, potentially less than 100th of a second, to pull Susanoo up. There's nothing indicating Susanoo can be pulled out that fast simply because it's never been pulled out just as the user is about to be struck by lightning.


Itachi also had a lot of time to get it ready during Sasuke's speech. Quit acting like he reacted with no warning to Kirin.
Moreover, Itachi can't know C3's range and power. No reason to expect he'd try to throw up his most draining technique, blind himself and all when he could figure he'd just have to dodge.


> And don't be absurd, Itachi's not invincible even with Susano'o fully active. He's just about as close anyone's got so far that's all


Yeah, you can keep believing that.




> C3#18 can't break Susanoo, CO's his only shot.


So much evidence here. Yata's mirror hardly covers everything. The rest'll be swallowed up in the blast.
We've seen Danzo break a Susano'o, and Kirin. It's not invincible




> Sasuke is flying to get to Deidara. This is not proof he had to fly to evade the cloud. Logically there's no reason running away won't work. It's just a big invisible cloud. As long as you don't fall inside it you're fine. It can make it hard for Itachi to attack Deidara as Deidara can just hover above it, but isn't that hard to avoid if you can see chakra. Anyone with a Byakugan and some intelligence can do it for example.


More honestly:
The C4 spreads almost instantly to a wide range. It's not enough to know you
When talking about how he avoided it, Sasuke specifically noted he avoided it *by flying to where Deidara was flying above the dome*. He credits that as the reason for avoiding the C4. If running would've worked, why did he not say "Oh, I got out of the cloud?" When, y'know, they're airborne microscopic bombs that keep spreading out?
And oh, yeah, you also have to know not to breathe them in. Itachi's chances kind of suck.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 16, 2010)

wow wow the op made this easy
the fact that anyone can disagree is all fan bias
naruto trained to block genjutsu and itachi still caught him in genjutsu twice after that. 
notice itachi didnt need eye contact in any of them
as far as deidara doesnt start xm in the air he looses
the 2nd they meet each other, b4 deidara makes his first hand seal he would be in a genjutsu
kurenai is a genjutsu specialist she was caught by sharingan gen, shii seems proficient at it he was caught in one as well...orochimaru got raped by one
and even then, deidara trained to counter sharingan gen...not all gen..
itachi could use finger gen to mess up deidara..he wouldnt even know he is in one
cuz he would be thinking to himself i need to avoid eye contact and from there he will  fight a perilous battle...no chance of winning from deidara
sasuke figured out that c4 doesnt explode like other bombs so why on earth wont itach
why would he stupidly try to use susanoo??? the 2nd he sees that detonation doesnt= big blast. he is gonna notice that its a charka cloud sort of attack and move away quickly. the mere fact and what makes this an obvious outcome is the fact that deidara doesnt immediately start outside itachi range in the air at say 20m away, and that there isnt a bomb 2inches from itachi head.
i need to point out again that immunity to sasuke gen doesnt equal immunity to itachi gen
itachi is waaaaaaaaaaaaay better at that, even sasuke in their genjutsu battle was always a step behind. 
make deidara start in the air for an actual battle to take place, cuz in this situation he wont make it to the air.


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## sasori54 (May 17, 2010)

*Ithachi FTW!!!*

Ithachi would win this fight hands down they even showed itachi kinda fight him when deidara was getting recruited and itachi had no knowledge of him ,itachi wins hands down!!!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2010)

sasori54 said:


> Ithachi would win this fight hands down they even showed itachi kinda fight him when deidara was getting recruited and itachi had no knowledge of him ,itachi wins hands down!!!


And Deidara had no knowledge either and that was before he got C2-C4, and not only that, before Deidara got his genjutsu immunity.


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## Bloo (May 17, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Deidara had no knowledge either and that was before he got C2-C4, and not only that, before Deidara got his genjutsu immunity.



The blue part is true, however, the red part is false, Deidara started helping insurgents in various countries as a terrorist bomber. I doubt that he only had C1. But he had C2 and probably C3, as for C4 he didn't get that until AFTER he met Itachi.


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## sasori54 (May 17, 2010)

*Ithachi FTW!!!*



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Deidara had no knowledge either and that was before he got C2-C4, and not only that, before Deidara got his genjutsu immunity.



wats his counter for Amaterasu none it takes deidara 5mins to make his dang bird to fly away . itatchi would destroy him in the begining!!!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2010)

3spn4life said:


> The blue part is true, however, the red part is false, Deidara started helping insurgents in various countries as a terrorist bomber. I doubt that he only had C1. But he had C2 and probably C3, as for C4 he didn't get that until AFTER he met Itachi.


How do we know he only had C1 though? C2 -C4 seem like he only developed afterwards. C1 is the forbidden jutsu he acquired before he became a terrorist after all.



sasori54 said:


> wats his counter for Amaterasu none it takes deidara 5mins to make his dang bird to fly away . itatchi would destroy him in the begining!!!


Staying out of its range? Look at the starting distance, 50 meters. Nothing Itachi has even comes CLOSE to that range. And he's not fast enough to stop Deidara from making a bird, flying way out of Itachi's range and launching bomb after bomb after bomb.

Hell, C2, given Itachi's failing vision, would be deadly given how it hit CS2 Sasuke after Deidara stopped playing around. Not only that, C3 can take out an entire village and C4 is a cloud of micro bombs that Itachi all has to do is breath in and he'd die.


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## IzanagiRikudo (May 17, 2010)

uhhhh Tsukuyomi??? Susano'o??? Deidara would be beaten even with all the advantages he has. When C4 comes out, Itachi would use Genjutsu the same way Sasuke did...  and his Genjutsu is much more powerful than Sasuke's. If Itachi uses Susano'o, it's over for Diedara. C0 wouldn't affect Yata Mirror. Itachi has enough speed to evade C1 and C2. Deidara eye makes him see if something is Genjutsu or not, it doesn't just automatically end the Genjutsu, so he wouldn't be able to do anything against Tsukuyomi. Itachi wins with hard difficulty.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2010)

IzanagiRikudo said:


> uhhhh Tsukuyomi??? Susano'o??? Deidara would be beaten even with all the advantages he has.


No, he wouldn't.


> When C4 comes out, Itachi would use Genjutsu the same way Sasuke did...  and his Genjutsu is much more powerful than Sasuke's.


Itachi would be lucky to even SEE C4 with his failing vision, and Deidara can see through any genjutsu with the exception of MS. Sasuke's genjutsu's failed against Deidara, and he lured Sasuke into a trap and nearly killed him with C4.

And prove Itachi's standard genjutsus are stronger than Sasuke's. 


> If Itachi uses Susano'o, it's over for Diedara. C0 wouldn't affect Yata Mirror. Itachi has enough speed to evade C1 and C2. Deidara eye makes him see if something is Genjutsu or not, it doesn't just automatically end the Genjutsu, so he wouldn't be able to do anything against Tsukuyomi. Itachi wins with hard difficulty.


1. How? Deidara is far out of its range and C3 and C4 are omnidirectional, unlike the Yata Mirror.
2. How can evade C2 when Sasuke couldn't in CS2?
3. Deidara breaks out any genjutsu with his eye. Its a genjutsu cancelling technique. And if he's out of range of Tsukuyomi, its moot anyway.
4. Itachi loses. He has no long range attacks to deal with Deidara. He can't fly or use Raiton and his normal genjutsu is worthless.


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## sasori54 (May 17, 2010)

i'm sorry to informorm you of this but deidara sucks and 65% of the people on this thread right now agree that itachi would win, your just a deidara fan i understand you will say whatever to protect one of your favorites but the fact that you think deidara would beat itachi  not happening itachi would destroy him!!! get over it:repstorm


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## Suu (May 17, 2010)

^ probably not the right way to go about debating things around here, sir.


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## sasori54 (May 17, 2010)

Suu said:


> ^ probably not the right way to go about debating things around here, sir.



my apologies


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## machiavelli2009 (May 17, 2010)

wow SS or woteva his name is pointed out something every important that i failed to notice
does deidara start at 50m???
if so can his bomb reach a target 50m below??? 
if they cant he still looses but if they  can (though this hasnt been shown)
deidara rapes so ultra hard...he kills anyone 50m or higher 
even pain.....but the thing is his bombs dont have that sort of range


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## Jinnobi (May 17, 2010)

Deidara says "Haha...What the hell?" before he even turns around to see behind him - but when the sharigan eyes are shown. If it wasn't a genjutsu, what is the meaning of that?

P.S. The sharigan eyes may have been in front of him, which would explain why he says "what the hell?"


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## Vergil642 (May 17, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The snakes do not share a body. He just summoned them to  take care of his wing. His Raikiri is seen going through him and only him. Otherwise, Sasuke's Genjutsu was just...a disintegrating snake. That's kind of a crappy genjutsu when he should've shown him a disintegrating Sasuke. Not only that, Sasuke would've known to hold his breath after frying himself. The snakes wouldn't have
> And the Sharingans are nothing more than an effect. Any evidence those signify Genjutsu? Because I don't recall them being used to signify Genjutsu when Itachi fought Sasuke, or Orochimaru, or Naruto, or Kakashi...



If this is so then why do the snakes get disintegrated? If they aren't "alive" and part of him they shouldn't have the bombs within them. As the trees in the area are still standing it's clear the bombs can't destroy things they aren't inside, meaning the snakes can't disintegrate unless they breath independantly to Sasuke or Sasuke's blood supply is connected to them.

Crappy Genjutsu or not, Sasuke just needs to keep Deidara distracted for a moment to get himself a free shot in. And we see the exact same eyes earlier in the exact same fight behind Deidara's Clay Bunshin. Again, it signifies Genjutsu was used. Similarly close ups of the Sharingan and it appearing in strange places (see Manda's eye) indicate Genjutsu was used. Simples 



> Other translations also have it was there was no genjutsu. Deidara stated clearly there wasn't any genjutsu and you thinking the Sharingan effect means Genjutsu is your unsupported interpretation alone. Also, Sasuke used a Genjutsu in the CS2 form the first time-and there's no evidence that the CS2 bolsters genjutsu in manga that I know of, given the Sharingan effect was also shown when Sasuke was in the CS2 form and flying. Not only that, when he's falling, deidara is looking at Sasuke with his ANTI GENJUTSU EYE right there. The one the databook pretty much said makes him immune to the Sharingan's genjutsu.



It's nice to see you aren't comprehending my message. My argument is Deidara is pointing out that "last time Sasuke Genjutsu'd me he made me think he had the bombs inside him when he did not. This time he really did have the bombs inside him. He did not put me into a Genjutsu that made me believe he had bombs inside him; he really did have bombs inside him".

CS2's been stated to amp up all your jutsu and physical abilities, sort of like a weaker and self harming SM.

And the first time Sasuke Genjutsu'd him he entered CS2 after doing the Genjutsu. That's why Deidara sees _base_ Sasuke running away and doesn't see CS2 Sasuke until he's behind him. Check it yo, 

And again, pretty much immune=/=immune. Making matters worse, Itachi can always amp things up by using Tsukuyomi.



> He said he saw where the barrier ended by seeing where Deidara was flying when speficially telling Deidara how he AVOIDED IT. What does that say to you?



That he knew to avoid being inside the cloud. That's all. Sasuke does not then go on to say "I had to fly to avoid it". Obviously he has to fly to hit the airborne Deidara.

And using your favourite translation I quote  Sasuke states he saw the C4 bomb as a cloud of chakra, notes Deidara staying outside of the cloud, deducing they're a threat and pointing out that avoiding it was easy. He just has to avoid entering the cloud.

If they were fighting in an enclosed space like a cave Itachi would be fucked against C4, no question. But as this is the same battleground where Sasuke and Deidara fought...



> Is that C4? No. And Sasuke himself notes that was just Deidara playing with him. When he thinks Deidara was just making sure he could hit him, he's in the CS2 form, which he assumed when he hit the mine



And you're going to show me a scan of Sasuke noting Deidara's simply playing with him when...?

He enters his CS2 form as he sets off a mine. He uses it to fly and dodge the explosion (presumably the worst of the blast at least). Before this he's dodging with some difficulty the C2 bombs. Itachi's faster, Deidara has nobody to set the bombs up. There's no reason to believe Itachi can't dodge the C2 bombs either.



> It's a damn shame that Deidara trained against Itachi's genjutsu specifically and your only theory is "Oh, sasuke used the CS2 form to bolster it" which Itachi, last I checked, doesn't have. Itachi is fighting ICly besides and Karasu bunshin are still bunshin, meaning they use up an even distribution of chakra, would have a damn hard time reaching a flying opponent. and Deidara ICly will use C4 right off.



It's not a theory so much as an easy way to explain how Sasuke can suddenly Genjutsu Deidara when he previously couldn't. Itachi's considerable superiority to Sasuke in Genjutsu would mean that Deidara being able to break Sasuke's basic Genjutsu doesn't hold much water here.

I'll speak plainly. Deidara can break Genjutsu from someone inferior to Itachi at the art. This does not prove he can break the Genjutsu of someone superior to Sasuke at it.

And the DB outright states Karasu Bunshins don't take as much chakra as Kage Bunshins. And Deidara IC will not use C4 straight off. There's no reason to believe he'll jump to the big guns. He's angry as heck at Itachi and would want to prove his superiority. I wouldn't be surprised if he let himself get caught in his Genjutsu just to prove he can break it. 



> Your extrapolation alone on the latter. And Itachi would just start off with sharingan genjutsu at any rate



You clearly haven't read around enough. I wasn't the one who presented the idea Itachi may have done that and was in fact skeptical originally. But how else would Itachi Genjutsu Naruto when Naruto is carefully avoiding looking at his finger and eyes?



> Yeah, a lot of it was kinda still there. the blast didn't touch Sasuke and Zetsu.



Sasuke's obviously not going to blow himself to hell. Similarly it's obvious that it doesn't disintegrate/turn everything into ash.

Oh, and the    . Please note that the hill is now gone, replaced by rubble littering the ground. The only reason the ground ain't flat is because it's got the razed hill remains on it.



> Itachi also had a lot of time to get it ready during Sasuke's speech. Quit acting like he reacted with no warning to Kirin.
> Moreover, Itachi can't know C3's range and power. No reason to expect he'd try to throw up his most draining technique, blind himself and all when he could figure he'd just have to dodge.
> 
> Yeah, you can keep believing that.



And during all that time he does crap all. Unless you're suggesting he can activate Susanoo and have it remain invisible until after it gets shattered, it is obvious that it didn't come out until the last fraction of a second.

And all Itachi has to do is bring up Susanoo before being hit by the blast. Even if it isn't fully activated, he can survive with relatively minor injuries. So y'know, unless you're suggesting Itachi can fully whip Susanoo out before lightning strikes, Susanoo wasn't at full strength before it got hit.

Why thank you, I shall continue believing this until someone comes along and takes the crown.

Oh wait, Madara already did that 



> So much evidence here. Yata's mirror hardly covers everything. The rest'll be swallowed up in the blast.
> We've seen Danzo break a Susano'o, and Kirin. It's not invincible



A blast hits you from one direction. Yata's mirror can cover one direction.

Welcome to explosives 101 son. I believe that 101 is the term right? I'm not American so I'm somewhat unsure of the terminology.

If you'd like to prove that the ambient heat produced by the blast is enough to break Susanoo though, be my guest. Good luck too, you'll need it.

Oh, and Danzou damaging a weakened Susanoo sans armour proves dick. Kirin shattering a weakened Susanoo just makes Itachi's Susanoo even more impressive as a rough equivalent to Sasuke's could be damaged by things like Raikage, the Mizukage and Danzou.



> More honestly:
> The C4 spreads almost instantly to a wide range.



No it doesn't. It spreads to a wide range pretty fast, but as Sasuke showed it's by no means impossible to keep away from.



> It's not enough to know you
> When talking about how he avoided it, Sasuke specifically noted he avoided it *by flying to where Deidara was flying above the dome*. He credits that as the reason for avoiding the C4. If running would've worked, why did he not say "Oh, I got out of the cloud?" When, y'know, they're airborne microscopic bombs that keep spreading out?
> And oh, yeah, you also have to know not to breathe them in. Itachi's chances kind of suck.



No he didn't. He specifically said that Deidara staying outside the cloud sealed the deal and told him that going inside it was very, very bad.

The reason he didn't say "oh I got out of the cloud" was because he was never inside it silly. He doesn't have to explain to Deidara that he put one foot in front of the other, or contracted his leg muscles quickly to propel himself off the ground or flapped a wing and a bunch of snakes to fly/increase his jump height to avoid it. The fact he avoided being caught in the cloud is kind of obvious.

The fact someone slower and stupider than Itachi can do this means Itachi can do it too.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 17, 2010)

sorry what is the argument here???
how many times did sasuke use genjutsu on deidara????
some people are saying 2. 
explain


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 17, 2010)

> If this is so then why do the snakes get disintegrated? If they aren't "alive" and part of him they shouldn't have the bombs within them. As the trees in the area are still standing it's clear the bombs can't destroy things they aren't inside, meaning the snakes can't disintegrate unless they breath independantly to Sasuke or Sasuke's blood supply is connected to them.
> 
> Crappy Genjutsu or not, Sasuke just needs to keep Deidara distracted for a moment to get himself a free shot in. And we see the exact same eyes earlier in the exact same fight behind Deidara's Clay Bunshin. Again, it signifies Genjutsu was used. Similarly close ups of the Sharingan and it appearing in strange places (see Manda's eye) indicate Genjutsu was used. Simples


Manda's eyes were Sharingans themselves. That's different than a visual effect-you conveniently leave that out of course.
Deidara's eye sees through Genjutsu. You can't put him in one with the Sharingan. Let's reflect that the manga is clear on this as is the databook. But no, some random visual effect YOU interpret means everything else is wrong! Wrong.

And the snakes are SUMMONS. They're independent creatures of Sasuke.



> It's nice to see you aren't comprehending my message. My argument is Deidara is pointing out that "last time Sasuke Genjutsu'd me he made me think he had the bombs inside him when he did not. This time he really did have the bombs inside him. He did not put me into a Genjutsu that made me believe he had bombs inside him; he really did have bombs inside him".
> 
> CS2's been stated to amp up all your jutsu and physical abilities, sort of like a weaker and self harming SM.


NINJUTSU, yes. Anything on Genjutsu? Anything? Any proof or are you pulling it from thin air? The translations have it saying there was no genjutsu. Period. And guess what? After that, Sasuke never says "I put you in a Genjutsu to trick you" when saying how he escaped.
So, your explanation is completely absent from the manga itself



> And the first time Sasuke Genjutsu'd him he entered CS2 after doing the Genjutsu. That's why Deidara sees base Sasuke running away and doesn't see CS2 Sasuke until he's behind him. Check it yo, Sasuke sans CS2


Yeah, funny thing about that is that's a Genjutsu and Sasuke was using it while he was in CS2 form, given he was flying. The real Sasuke was in another place.
Genjutsu Sasuke is in base. Which Deidara sees through. Real Sasuke is in CS2 form flying clear while that happens.


> And again, pretty much immune=/=immune. Making matters worse, Itachi can always amp things up by using Tsukuyomi.


Tsukuyomi s a short range Genjutsu. Deidara flies high up. He has full knowledge of Itachi to boot and Itachi ICly doesn't resort to the MS like that
The databook says immune to boot. You should really just drop this point




> No he didn't. He specifically said that Deidara staying outside the cloud sealed the deal and told him that going inside it was very, very bad.


Lies. Sasuke is saying exactly how he avoided it. You're just ignoring that



> The reason he didn't say "oh I got out of the cloud" was because he was never inside it silly. He doesn't have to explain to Deidara that he put one foot in front of the other, or contracted his leg muscles quickly to propel himself off the ground or flapped a wing and a bunch of snakes to fly/increase his jump height to avoid it. The fact he avoided being caught in the cloud is kind of obvious.


We see Sasuke FLYING. How did Sasuke escape? He says it himself: "I saw where you were flying right above the dome. Once I knew that, I knew where to go.



> The fact someone slower and stupider than Itachi can do this means Itachi can do it too.


Itachi can barely sees and can't fly. Deidara can throw down a bunshin or more bombs as Itachi tries to escape.
The logic of Itachi fans here isn't working. Sasuke has abilities and techniques Itachi doesn't. Like, y'know, flight and Raiton.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 17, 2010)

deidara wins how could anyone argue that, how could i argue that
deidara is at 50m
apparenlty i cant read as well as all those who say itachi wins
but lemme ask the OP what is the range of deidara bombs
what does the DB say about the range of his techniques?
50m seems kinda far for deidara...i dont think his bombs can get to someone 50m away
but if they can deidara rapes so ultra hard its not even an issue to be discussed


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 18, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> No he couldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is Itachi's intelligence going to help him, yes. And when I said Itachi did not need his Sharingan, I meant his Mangekyou Sharingan. It's obvious it is required for him to use his Sharingan to get away from the C4. As far as an elemental advantage, you did get me there, haha. I say it depends on location. Still, I'd say Itachi.


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## Vergil642 (May 18, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Manda's eyes were Sharingans themselves. That's different than a visual effect-you conveniently leave that out of course.
> Deidara's eye sees through Genjutsu. You can't put him in one with the Sharingan. Let's reflect that the manga is clear on this as is the databook. But no, some random visual effect YOU interpret means everything else is wrong! Wrong.
> 
> And the snakes are SUMMONS. They're independent creatures of Sasuke.



Manda's eyes had Sharingan on them to represent he was dominated by it. It's just an abstract way to tell the reader "oh hey, this guy got Genjutsu'd".

Deidara's eyes can see through Sasuke's basic Genjutsu. CS2 Genjutsu is stronger, as is Itachi's basic Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi.

Please show me the DB's exact words concerning Deidara's immunity. If you would, please show me Deidara breaking Genjutsu that's as powerful as Itachi's. Otherwise please stop whining that Deidara can break a Genjutsu when he lacks feats that prove he can do so.

The snakes aren't summons. Summons are living beings _summoned_ from one place to wherever you are to aid you. Those snakes were Senei Jashu snakes, which grow out of the user's body to attack the opponent and show zero sentience whatsoever. They aren't independant creatures and have never exhibited any independant thought. If they have, you let me know with some scans 'kay?



> NINJUTSU, yes. Anything on Genjutsu? Anything? Any proof or are you pulling it from thin air? The translations have it saying there was no genjutsu. Period. And guess what? After that, Sasuke never says "I put you in a Genjutsu to trick you" when saying how he escaped.
> So, your explanation is completely absent from the manga itself



I'll go look for it as I don't have anything on hand now.

Again, you don't understand what I'm saying. Reread what I've written, I'm arguing about what Deidara's referring to when he says no Genjutsu is used.



> Yeah, funny thing about that is that's a Genjutsu and Sasuke was using it while he was in CS2 form, given he was flying. The real Sasuke was in another place.
> Genjutsu Sasuke is in base. Which Deidara sees through. Real Sasuke is in CS2 form flying clear while that happens.



Show me Sasuke utilising Genjutsu there with CS2 activated as he does it. Unless he always has eye contact with Deidara, CS2 won't affect any existing Genjutsu (it's already been done without the boost CS2 gives).



> Tsukuyomi s a short range Genjutsu. Deidara flies high up. He has full knowledge of Itachi to boot and Itachi ICly doesn't resort to the MS like that
> The databook says immune to boot. You should really just drop this point



The DB's ranges concerning Genjutsu were proved to be false when Sasuke successfully Genjutsu'd Deidara at long range. Deidara broke it, but the Genjutsu was nevertheless implemented successfully. As long as you can see the eye, you're susceptible to being taken in by it's Genjutsu. He also has not got full knowledge and hasn't displayed any knowledge of Itachi's MS.

The DB says immune, the manga indicates otherwise. I'm going with the manga, because it's a "higher" canon than the DB 



> Lies. Sasuke is saying exactly how he avoided it. You're just ignoring that



You're reinterpreting what's being said to suit your argument to the point of shutting your eyes to any alternative.

I can see why you believe Sasuke is saying "because you flew I knew flying=escape", but think for a moment. It's a big cloud. If you can see it and move faster than it spreads, then why do you need to fly to escape?

You seem to be saying that without flight you _cannot avoid it at all._ Which is clearly nonsense as again, if you can move faster than it and can see it you can stay outside of it. Flight simply helps.



> We see Sasuke FLYING. How did Sasuke escape? He says it himself: "I saw where you were flying right above the dome. Once I knew that, I knew where to go.



He doesn't say that. He says "I saw the chakra in those tiny bombs as a large cloud of smoke. Once I noticed you were flying outside the boundary of that cloud, avoiding it was easy." He's saying that it was easy to avoid it because he saw A) An ominous cloud of chakra and B) That Deidara wasn't going inside it. In other words, it was easy to avoid _because he figured out it was dangerous._



> Itachi can barely sees and can't fly. Deidara can throw down a bunshin or more bombs as Itachi tries to escape.
> The logic of Itachi fans here isn't working. Sasuke has abilities and techniques Itachi doesn't. Like, y'know, flight and Raiton.



He can still see huge clouds of chakra. He's still more than capable of keeping up with CS2 Sasuke, who's faster than Base Sasuke, who evaded C2 with some difficulty. Deidara throws down a Bunshin, Itachi can pop a Karasu Bunshin, Deidara throws more bombs down and oh holy shit, Itachi dodges those slow bastards. It took guided C2 bombs to nearly catch _base_ Sasuke, unless you can show me Deidara shooting multiple guided C2 bombs there's no reason to believe he'd catch Itachi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2010)

> Manda's eyes had Sharingan on them to represent he was dominated by it. It's just an abstract way to tell the reader "oh hey, this guy got Genjutsu'd".


They were physically there.



> Deidara's eyes can see through Sasuke's basic Genjutsu. CS2 Genjutsu is stronger, as is Itachi's basic Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi.


The databook says otherwise. At no point to my knowledge is Genjutsu with the Cs2 declared to be stronger. And he trained against Itachi's specifically.

*He vowed to break the curse of the Sharingan through his Art, with his trump card being his left eye, concealed under his eye-scope, immune to the Sharingan's genjutsu.. Since then, Deidara has been waiting for a good opportunity to get his revenge.*



> Please show me the DB's exact words concerning Deidara's immunity. If you would, please show me Deidara breaking Genjutsu that's as powerful as Itachi's. Otherwise please stop whining that Deidara can break a Genjutsu when he lacks feats that prove he can do so.


He broke CS2 Sasuke's once already-if not then explain how it was still happening when Sasuke was flying. And he trained it SPECIFICALLY for Sasuke's.
Databook and manga both have Deidara seeing through genjutsu and he here has full knowledge. It's looking kind of bad for you here in all honesty.
You have nothing but "He's Itachi, how can he lose?"
And 'lacks feats?' I suppose you'll just ignore the manga now. Deidara trained to break Itachi's, so we assume he can. Deal with it.





> The snakes aren't summons. Summons are living beings summoned from one place to wherever you are to aid you. Those snakes were Senei Jashu snakes, which grow out of the user's body to attack the opponent and show zero sentience whatsoever. They aren't independant creatures and have never exhibited any independant thought. If they have, you let me know with some scans 'kay?


Your point being? Sasuke summons snakes in place of his win. Independent creatures of him as they act, breathe and strike on their own. They are not part of his body and there is no proof a Chidori will affect Sasuke's wings when we only see the current running in his body without touching the wings.




> I'll go look for it as I don't have anything on hand now.
> 
> Again, you don't understand what I'm saying. Reread what I've written, I'm arguing about what Deidara's referring to when he says no Genjutsu is used.


Good. And other translations can make it very clear. And at NO POINT does Sasuke, when giving a very detailed explanation of how he fought, ever say "Haha, I used Genjutsu and you fell for it!" coupled with that and the databook, accept you are wrong




> how me Sasuke utilising Genjutsu there with CS2 activated as he does it. Unless he always has eye contact with Deidara, CS2 won't affect any existing Genjutsu (it's already been done without the boost CS2 gives).


He was flying at Deidara with a Raiton activated, in CS2. Then Deidara yelled Katsu, staring with his genjutsu immune eye before he crashed through the trees.
Would there be a point when he wasn't in CS2 when he could use it. And another time, when the Genjutsu was supposedly 'broken,' Sasuke is in CS2 flying behind Deidara. So he was in CS2 form using it



> You're reinterpreting what's being said to suit your argument to the point of shutting your eyes to any alternative.
> 
> I can see why you believe Sasuke is saying "because you flew I knew flying=escape", but think for a moment. It's a big cloud. If you can see it and move faster than it spreads, then why do you need to fly to escape?
> 
> You seem to be saying that without flight you cannot avoid it at all. Which is clearly nonsense as again, if you can move faster than it and can see it you can stay outside of it. Flight simply helps.


Proof they move faster than it spreads. Sasuke, again, flew away. Itachi can't do that and C4 keeps spreading. Not only that, Itachi can't replicate what Sasuke did so Deidara can still leave a minefield there, or a bunshin trap, or keep bombs coming. How much can Itachi do at once according to you?
And I find it hilarious you accuse someone else of shutting off to any possibility when it's very clear you go into a fight thinking "Itachi wins" and invent a scenario for it even when you have to ignore direct manga evidence for it.

So, Sasuke says he escaped how? Seeing where Deidara was outside the cloud. Meaning, he escaped by getting to the same level of height. How'd he do that? Flight.





> He doesn't say that. He says "I saw the chakra in those tiny bombs as a large cloud of smoke. Once I noticed you were flying outside the boundary of that cloud, avoiding it was easy." He's saying that it was easy to avoid it because he saw A) An ominous cloud of chakra and B) That Deidara wasn't going inside it. In other words, it was easy to avoid because he figured out it was dangerous.


It takes some persistent dishonesty to try to quote something and STILL mangle the meaning like this.
Where was Deidara flying outside it? Above it. The translation can also be given 'above' the cloud. So Sasuke was able to avoid it how? By seeing where Deidara was, safely out of it, meaning he was able to fly out.





> He can still see huge clouds of chakra. He's still more than capable of keeping up with CS2 Sasuke, who's faster than Base Sasuke, who evaded C2 with some difficulty. Deidara throws down a Bunshin, Itachi can pop a Karasu Bunshin, Deidara throws more bombs down and oh holy shit, Itachi dodges those slow bastards. It took guided C2 bombs to nearly catch base Sasuke, unless you can show me Deidara shooting multiple guided C2 bombs there's no reason to believe he'd catch Itachi.


When did Sasuke go to CS2 to engage Itachi in speed and hand to hand?
There's nothing slow about bombs that, when Deidara was serious, tagged CS2 Sasuke. As Sasuke in CS2 form says himself: "He was only seeing if he could hit me with the bombs and now he's out of reach!"
Btw, base Sasuke was keeping up with Itachi in taijutsu there.
And Deidara merely needs to fire C2 (And of course you totally ignore the fact that Deidara, when Sasuke dodged was just snickering to himself and laughing at his speed before using a larger and faster bomb at the end. He didn't think "No, he's too fast for my bombs!" No, "Curses, how he could he avoid that?!" Just amusement, which gels with what Sasuke said about Deidara only testing him with the first two.
So, let's reiterate. C4 is coming, Itachi is grounded, unlike Sasuke and can't really escape it. If he tries to run, then Deidara, from a distance when Itachi can barely sees someone right in front of him, is throwing down enormous explosions, along with an exploding bunshin.
And oh, yeah, if Itachi so much as takes  a single breath, he'll die.
So, nothing but "I like Itachi so he wins," with blatant disregard for anything in the manga, the battle's determined standards and deciding sources you don't like just don't count. Nice.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 19, 2010)

again if deidara starts at 50m and his bombs can get to itachi then deidara clearly wins
but thats not the case, deidara bombs dont have a 50m range which means deidara will have to come close to get to itachi. that is why itachi would win
just staying a few meters outside someone's range doesnt prevent them from gettin to u
as sasuke showed using the terrain and tactics to get to ur enemy is basic ninja stuff
itachi will find a way to get to deidara.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 19, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Is Itachi's intelligence going to help him, yes. And when I said Itachi did not need his Sharingan, I meant his Mangekyou Sharingan. It's obvious it is required for him to use his Sharingan to get away from the C4. As far as an elemental advantage, you did get me there, haha. I say it depends on location. Still, I'd say Itachi.



'Eh? Sure, intelligence may help. But it's not going to save his life and neither is being able to see your doom with your Sharingan. 

What's his answer to C4? You can't Genjutsu bombs, Gourkakyuu won't save him either since it attacks from all sides the only thing that can save him is Susano-o, which he might not even use with no knowledge. And no, as some people said he cannot run away. The thing itself is too big, actually _chases_ you and it's blast radius is massive.


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## Jinnobi (May 19, 2010)

> intelligence may help. But it's not going to save his life



Intellect is vastly underrated on these forums.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Intelligence isn't going to help if you literally can't DO anything. Shikamaru might be the smartest guy in the manga. If C4 is released around him, all the intellect in the world won't help


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## Nikushimi (May 19, 2010)

Susano'o protects Itachi from C4. Deidara gets frustrated and goes boom. Itachi survives.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Yata's mirror doesn't cover everything.And nothing's ever shown Susanoo is air tight. Zetsu got through just fine. Mei's mist was getting through the ribs when Sasuke was trying to resist.

C4 is even smaller there.


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## Nikushimi (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yata's mirror doesn't cover everything.And nothing's ever shown Susanoo is air tight. Zetsu got through just fine. Mei's mist was getting through the ribs when Sasuke was trying to resist.
> 
> C4 is even smaller there.



Susano'o doesn't have to be air-tight, because the C4 microbombs are not as small as air molecules. Even so, there's no way to tell if it is or isn't, so don't bother trying to argue with me about it. Zetsu and the Mizukage only got through the ribcage portion; as long as Itachi puts some flesh on those bones, he's safe.

All Itachi needs the Yata no Kagami for is taking the brunt of CO.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Unfortunately, the microbombs are even smaller than that. And Itachi has no knowledge. So, he's quite a bit more susceptible

And no limits fallacy on the Susanoo. Again, it's getting silly when an explosion like that would still kill a human being even if they survived the blast. Whiplash and oxygen deprivation will do it


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## Angoobo (May 19, 2010)

^^If C4 Garuda microbombs attack from the side which is not protected by Yata Mirror, Itachi's screwed....


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## Tengu (May 19, 2010)

Itachi can see the bombs, why do you think he will just stay there and not run for it?
Sasuke and Tobi both managed to outrun C4.


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## Nikushimi (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Unfortunately, the microbombs are even smaller than that. And Itachi has no knowledge. So, he's quite a bit more susceptible



Itachi has Sharingan, so he can actually see the bombs themselves. Not sure why you're choosing to be so obstinate about this, -snip-



> And no limits fallacy on the Susanoo.



No-limits fallacy is an assertion that no limit exists because no limit has been shown. Itachi's Susano'o- or more precisely, the Yata no Kagami -has explicitly been stated to not have a limit. Try again.



> Again, it's getting silly when an explosion like that would still kill a human being even if they survived the blast. Whiplash and oxygen deprivation will do it



Zetsu himself witnessed CO and still had no reservations about calling the Yata no Kagami an impenetrable shield- or calling Itachi himself totally invincible while using Susano'o. Which sorta stomps all over your argument that a firecracker-by-comparison like Imari would break through it as well.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi has Sharingan, so he can actually see the bombs themselves. Not sure why you're choosing to be so obstinate about this, but I guess this is just more of the same from you.


Itachi seeing a cloud of chakra does not equate to "I know they're bombs." Sasuke didn't until he'd inhaled them. Seeing does not equate to doing anything about it. Itachi can't fly or use Raiton, can he?




> No-limits fallacy is an assertion that no limit exists because no limit has been shown. Itachi's Susano'o- or more precisely, the Yata no Kagami -has explicitly been stated to not have a limit. Try again.



Not only does the Yata no Kagami not cover everything.
And databook hyperbole for an argument is a bad idea. The databook mentions plenty of times that such and such attack is unstoppable.
By this logic, Susanoo can tank the moon, Goku's Ki blasts, the Rikudou Sennin, etc.
Yata no Kagami has been shown not to stand up to Kirin before. Unless Itachi was stupid enough to just summon a ribcage to deal with Kirin, we've seen Susanoo users can summon it instantly with Sasuke.





You see the effect when the Susanoo is around and behind Sasuke.

But here it is absent:


Indicating it was only immediately summoned



> Zetsu himself witnessed CO and still had no reservations about calling the Yata no Kagami an impenetrable shield- or calling Itachi himself totally invincible while using Susano'o. Which sorta stomps all over your argument that a firecracker-by-comparison like Imari would break through it as well.


Zetsu saw the explosion from a distance. Since when did Zetsu know the properties of the Yata no Kagami and Susanoo as a whole besides?
It doesn't change Susanoo has been shown to have a limit. 
And besides, how does Itachi survive the whiplash and oxygen deprivation? His lungs would be sucked out of his mouth.



KUKU_nr8 said:


> Itachi can see the bombs, why do you think he will just stay there and not run for it?
> Sasuke and Tobi both managed to outrun C4.



1. Deidara isn't going to throw bombs in front of him or at his back to box him in?
2. Tobi was out of there before Deidara released C4. He shouted a warning before he used it
3. Sasuke didn't outrun it. He said himself he flew. IE: He saw where Deidara was hovering ABOVE it


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## Nikushimi (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi seeing a cloud of chakra does not equate to "I know they're bombs." Sasuke didn't until he'd inhaled them.



Sasuke didn't inhale them. Sasuke evaded them, because he knew they were dangerous; Itachi would, too.



> Seeing does not equate to doing anything about it. Itachi can't fly or use Raiton, can he?



He can use Susano'o. 



> Not only does the Yata no Kagami not cover everything.



Doesn't need to; C4 is not a highly-traumatic attack, so the rest of Susano'o is more than sufficient to keep it out.



> And databook hyperbole for an argument is a bad idea. The databook mentions plenty of times that such and such attack is unstoppable.



What about Zetsu, someone who has witnessed everything from the Pain vs. Jiraiya battle to Deidara's CO and still felt comfortable with making that assertion?



> By this logic, Susanoo can tank the moon, Goku's Ki blasts, the Rikudou Sennin, etc.



The moon crashing and the Rikudou Sennin, possibly. Goku is not a part of the Narutoverse and far transcends any known power within it, so he's unknown territory. Even he may not be able to destroy the Yata no Kagami, but his blasts are so powerful that they would destroy the very planet beneath Itachi's feat, so it's not like it makes a difference. And supposing the Yata no Kagami couldn't be destroyed by something like the Kamehameha, the rest of Susano'o would buckle underneath it and the shield itself would smash Itachi.

But as it stands, Kishimoto has asserted that the Yata no Kagami can't be penetrated by any conceivable force in the Narutoverse. An assertion that has yet to be contradicted or retracted.



> Yata no Kagami has been shown not to stand up to Kirin before.



No it hasn't. Nowhere did we see the Yata no Kagami. That is your assumption that he used it and that it subsequently failed.



> Unless Itachi was stupid enough to just summon a ribcage to deal with Kirin, we've seen Susanoo users can summon it instantly with Sasuke.



That wasn't instant, but we've been down this road already. No idea what you intended to prove with the second scan. Itachi only had a millisecond to activate it, regardless of how much prep Sasuke's inane rambling gave him leading up to it. When we see Itachi reactivate Susano'o, it is just the ribs. He says without that, he would have been killed. What I get from that is, Itachi conjured up the ribcage in that fraction of a second before Kirin struck. Why not the full version? Because if the full version- including the Yata no Kagami -had been completely obliterated, Zetsu would not have gone and called Susano'o/Itachi "completely invincible" in the very next chapter, would he? Unless you want to accuse Zetsu of being:

A) a liar.

or

B) stupid.

But regardless of any accusations you make, I trust Zetsu's word over yours anyday, anyway.



> Zetsu saw the explosion from a distance. Since when did Zetsu know the properties of the Yata no Kagami and Susanoo as a whole besides?



Oh lol, this is great. Now you're getting into "x-character couldn't possibly have had an adequate understanding of the abilities in question, because it makes no sense to me personally." I deal with this all the time, mainly with guys trying to argue that Tsukuyomi can't kill. The one thing that continues to amuse the hell out of me is, you take the fact that things like Susano'o and the Yata no Kagami exist for granted, yet a fictional character's ability to properly comprehend them is utterly beyond anything you find remotely plausible.

Zetsu made an assertion. If he were not intended to be a knowledgeable source, Kishimoto would not have chosen him to make that assertion. He would have chosen someone else, and he would have made a different assertion.



> It doesn't change Susanoo has been shown to have a limit.



Susano'o itself, yes; the Yata no Kagami, no.



> And besides, how does Itachi survive the whiplash and oxygen deprivation? His lungs would be sucked out of his mouth.



He's protected by Susano'o. On top of that, the guy survived getting plowed several hundred feet from the sky into the ground by a giant lightning bolt. You're telling me he can't handle the whiplash of CO when even Sasuke inside Manda's mouth was able to withstand brief exposure?


----------



## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke didn't inhale them. Sasuke evaded them, because he knew they were dangerous; Itachi would, too.



I know Uchiha have this habit of getting new powers as the plot demands, but this doesn't equate to saying he can sprout wings and fly out.

How did Sasuke avoid it? In his own words I saw where you were flying outside of the dome. From there, I was able to avoid it." 
deidara can keep Itachi boxed in, use a Bunshin, etc. More likely, he just stays out of reach until Itachi deactivates Susanoo for half a second if it can't penetrate, seeing it's doing no harm.
'Seeing' assuming he still has his eyesight





> He can use Susano'o.



His last resort canonically. So, after blinding himself, he';d deactivate it upon seeing nothing around him, inhale C4 and die



> Doesn't need to; C4 is not a highly-traumatic attack, so the rest of Susano'o is more than sufficient to keep it out.


Kind of irrelevant. Susanoo has not been shown to be airtight and C4 is much smaller than the mist. Just a little needs to go through




> What about Zetsu, someone who has witnessed everything from the Pain vs. Jiraiya battle to Deidara's CO and still felt comfortable with making that assertion?


And what makes Zetsu's word higher than the databook asserting numerous attacks are 'unstoppable' and all one can do is die, etc.
The YK is stated to be capable of repelling attacks due to it having five nature alterations besides. And we've seen the limit
Besides, we've seen Kakashi kamui away Susanoo's projectiles. if Kakashi had, say, Jiraiya's chakra levels, he could safely take away the whole thing. Yata or no




> The moon crashing and the Rikudou Sennin, possibly. Goku is not a part of the Narutoverse and far transcends any known power within it, so he's unknown territory. Even he may not be able to destroy the Yata no Kagami, but his blasts are so powerful that they would destroy the very planet beneath Itachi's feat, so it's not like it makes a difference. And supposing the Yata no Kagami couldn't be destroyed by something like the Kamehameha, the rest of Susano'o would buckle underneath it and the shield itself would smash Itachi.



Okay, when you reach the point that YM can take planet busting attacks, Then you're kind of crossing into a territory of a pointedly absurd argument.
Same standard to C0. It's going to incinerate the very oxygen around it, and the rest of Susanoo besides.



> But as it stands, Kishimoto has asserted that the Yata no Kagami can't be penetrated by any conceivable force in the Narutoverse. An assertion that has yet to be contradicted or retracted.


And other attacks can't be stopped by anything.
Kirin broke through...and funnily enough, Kirin doesn't use Chakra...when have we seen YM put to the true test?
And as made of chakra, anyone who absorbs or nullifies that?




> No it hasn't. Nowhere did we see the Yata no Kagami. That is your assumption that he used it and that it subsequently failed.


You're absolutely correct. However, I have supported it via evidence of instant Susanoo creation.
Unless you have evidence Susanoo was incomplete at the time. I've only seen Itachi state he used Susanoo itself to block. Not "Hey, my inferior Susanoo saved me. Haha, Sasuke!"




> None of that was instant, but we've been down this road already. Itachi only had a millisecond to activate it, regardless of how much prep Sasuke's inane rambling gave him leading up to it. When we see Itachi reactivate Susano'o, it is just the ribs. He says without that, he would have been killed. What I get from that is, Itachi conjured up the ribcage in that fraction of a second before Kirin struck. Why not the full version? Because if the full version- including the Yata no Kagami -had been completely obliterated, Zetsu would not have gone and called Susano'o/Itachi "completely invincible" in the very next chapter, would he? Unless you want to accuse Zetsu of being:


Let me put it this way. You have a shield you can throw up with your mind. If someone shoots you with a gun when you're not expecting it, you likely couldn't throw it up in time to block the bullet. Now say the gunman arrives, rambles on for five minutes, then shows you the gun before taking it out and pulling the trigger.

You're gonna have a much better shot, aren't you?

Hell, we've had Madara call Pain invincible. Fukasaku has stated without knowledge, Pain is also invincible. But yet, Susanoo Somehow>All? Danzo has already disproved that



> A) a liar.
> 
> or
> 
> ...



Okay then. So, who's invincibility is supreme? Kakuzu's, Pain's, Itachi's...

Seems to be we've got a few inconsistencies if we take it that way and start assuming Yata's Mirror can tank everything under the sun.  Why are we taking it as a special case all of a sudden to Kishi's hyperbole?
He's also stated Amaterasu burns hot as the sun, I think we've had THAT settled


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2010)

Having full knowledge, and having no actual counter for Tsukiyomi, Deidara would probably try to keep his distance and resort to his big guns right from the beginning. Itachi'd still take the 2nd scenario without much difficulties though. He'd probably outsmart Deidara and lure him into Susano'o's range @ some point and win in the first one too.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Deidara is already skilled at staying out of opponents' ranges. He isn't an idiot


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## Nikushimi (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I know Uchiha have this habit of getting new powers as the plot demands, but this doesn't equate to saying he can sprout wings and fly out.



What about activating Susano'o is so difficult for you to wrap your head around?



> How did Sasuke avoid it? In his own words I saw where you were flying outside of the dome. From there, I was able to avoid it."
> deidara can keep Itachi boxed in, use a Bunshin, etc. More likely, he just stays out of reach until Itachi deactivates Susanoo for half a second if it can't penetrate, seeing it's doing no harm.



If Deidara sees that Itachi has this uber-Jutsu that is protecting him from the very technique he designed specifically to kill him, he's going to flip his wig over the fact that Itachi is shitting on his art again and blow himself up in frustration.



> 'Seeing' assuming he still has his eyesight



I like how fashionable it is to pick on Itachi's eyesight, even though it's never really presented any substantial problems for him.



> His last resort canonically. So, after blinding himself, he';d deactivate it upon seeing nothing around him, inhale C4 and die



He has Sharingan, so he would see C4 and activate Susano'o in response.



> Kind of irrelevant. Susanoo has not been shown to be airtight and C4 is much smaller than the mist. Just a little needs to go through



Itachi can manifest Susano'o beyond the little gimp-ribcage Sasuke was using when the Mizukage's mist got through. Susano'o hasn't been shown NOT to be airtight, either, so I don't know why you bother bringing that up like it's supposed to prove anything.



> And what makes Zetsu's word higher than the databook asserting numerous attacks are 'unstoppable' and all one can do is die, etc.



Which attacks, specifically? Anything given a superlative claim by the databooks that didn't deserve it was usually contradicted at some point. We have never seen the Yata no Kagami's impenetrable status contradicted. On top of that, the databooks are notorious for hyperbole and poetic exaggeration; Zetsu is not. He was making an assertion based on knowledge he came to possess through means we are not privileged to know, using observations he had made of fighters and techniques of the highest order of magnitude within the Narutoverse.

If we're taking the databooks verbatum now, then I'd like to cite Itachi's lightspeed Suiton: Suigadan no Jutsu as an instant GG to this thread. 



> The YK is stated to be capable of repelling attacks due to it having five nature alterations besides. And we've seen the limit



It possesses the Seisshitsu Henka, the Ultimate Nature Modifying Ability, but it can change its nature to reflect physical and spiritual attacks as well. "Nature" doesn't refer specifically to "elemental nature", more accurately, it refers to the mirror's physical properties.



> Besides, we've seen Kakashi kamui away Susanoo's projectiles. if Kakashi had, say, Jiraiya's chakra levels, he could safely take away the whole thing. Yata or no



Transporting it to a different space isn't the same as penetrating it. Also, Kakashi doesn't have Jiraiya's chakra levels, so that argument is irrelevant.



> Okay, when you reach the point that YM can take planet busting attacks, Then you're kind of crossing into a territory of a pointedly absurd argument.



I never made that assertion. I have an open mind, and anything is possible in Shounen as far as I'm concerned. But that's not the same as adamantly proclaiming that it has infinite power.



> Same standard to C0. It's going to incinerate the very oxygen around it, and the rest of Susanoo besides.



There should still be oxygen inside Susano'o, otherwise Itachi couldn't breathe. If Sasuke could survive getting grazed by the blast simply by hopping in Manda's mouth, I don't see why it's such a big issue with you when I insist that Itachi would survive it encased in a Jutsu that ripped apart a creature larger and more powerful than Manda.



> And other attacks can't be stopped by anything.
> Kirin broke through...and funnily enough, Kirin doesn't use Chakra...



Kirin was never shown piercing the Yata no Kagami. When Itachi reactivates Susano'o, it is just the ribcage; the other layers and the two spiritual items take extra time to form after that.



> when have we seen YM put to the true test?



That's just it: We haven't.



> And as made of chakra, anyone who absorbs or nullifies that?



The Yata no Kagami is not made of chakra.



> You're absolutely correct. However, I have supported it via evidence of instant Susanoo creation.



No you haven't. Nowhere have we seen anyone activate a full, perfected Susano'o in under a millisecond. Even if it could be done in a second, or a tenth of a second, we're talking about one *one-thousandth* of a second; there is absolutely nothing to suggest that it could be done that quickly.



> Unless you have evidence Susanoo was incomplete at the time. I've only seen Itachi state he used Susanoo itself to block. Not "Hey, my inferior Susanoo saved me. Haha, Sasuke!"



When Itachi actually activates Susano'o again,



this is what we get. Not that "LOL INSTANT FULL SUSANO'O + ITEMS" business you're trying to sell me.



> Let me put it this way. You have a shield you can throw up with your mind. If someone shoots you with a gun when you're not expecting it, you likely couldn't throw it up in time to block the bullet. Now say the gunman arrives, rambles on for five minutes, then shows you the gun before taking it out and pulling the trigger.
> 
> You're gonna have a much better shot, aren't you?



Absolutely, but that still doesn't change the fact that I have to execute that thought in the fraction of a second between the bullet leaving the barrel of the gun and entering my skull. Moreover, maybe I can't manifest it exactly at the speed of thought; maybe I can *initiate* it that quickly, but maybe, just maybe, it takes a fraction of a second longer to actually *complete* it.



> Hell, we've had Madara call Pain invincible. Fukasaku has stated without knowledge, Pain is also invincible.



Madara jokingly/sarcastically referred to Pain as invincible, AFTER he had been defeated. Fukasaku's statement was correct when and where he made it; no one among the living, on the face of the planet, who wasn't Pain's own ally, could defeat Pain without knowing his secret.



> But yet, Susanoo Somehow>All? Danzo has already disproved that



Danzou took one layer of flesh off the back of Sasuke's imperfect Susano'o. And that was *Sasuke's* Susano'o.

Furthermore, no one is saying Susano'o>all, just that Itachi's can't be penetrated while it is up thanks to the Yata no Kagami, which is different.



> Okay then. So, who's invincibility is supreme? Kakuzu's, Pain's, Itachi's...



Itachi's. 

They're all valid within the contexts in which they are given. Kakuzu's Doton: Domu makes him effectively invincible unless you can nullify the ability with a Raiton attack. Pain was invincible to anyone who would stand against him without knowledge of his abilities/secret. Itachi is invincible as long as Susano'o is up.



> Seems to be we've got a few inconsistencies if we take it that way and start assuming Yata's Mirror can tank everything under the sun.  Why are we taking it as a special case all of a sudden to Kishi's hyperbole?



Because the guy who witnessed an explosion with a 10km radius called it impenetrable. It's not like I'm going purely off hyperbole here; plenty of techniques and people have been hyped up with hyperbole, but this is a bit of a special case since this particular item's superlative status was proclaimed by one who has seen some of the Narutoverse's top-tier firepower.

For that matter, this is a guy who watches bar fights between Akatsuki members. It's safe to say he recognizes power when he sees it.



> He's also stated Amaterasu burns hot as the sun, I think we've had THAT settled



Like/as=simile. Not a literal comparison. Kishi also writes in the databooks that Enma has a body as hard as steel when in Kongo Nyoi form in an entry relating to Orochimaru and the Kusanagi no Tsurugi, even though the name itself means "Diamond Staff" and the databook entry for Enma says the staff's durability is "adamantine/diamond-hard."


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> What about activating Susano'o is so difficult for you to wrap your head around?



Itachi will immediately figure everything out and activate Susanoo because..he's Itachi?

He will then blind himself, realize there was no explosion and take it down. And die



> If Deidara sees that Itachi has this uber-Jutsu that is protecting him from the very technique he designed specifically to kill him, he's going to flip his wig over the fact that Itachi is shitting on his art again and blow himself up in frustration.


Yeah, it took a long fight for Deidara to freak out over Sasuke. Deidara'd likely drop C3 first before resorting to anything.
And givne there's no evidence Susanoo as a while will; block C4...




> I like how fashionable it is to pick on Itachi's eyesight, even though it's never really presented any substantial problems for him.


When it comes to C4, it makes a difference




> He has Sharingan, so he would see C4 and activate Susano'o in response.


Yeah, except seeing a cloud of chakra from what he has no reason to suspect isn't a dud bomb isn't equivalent to knowing all about a technique




> Itachi can manifest Susano'o beyond the little gimp-ribcage Sasuke was using when the Mizukage's mist got through. Susano'o hasn't been shown NOT to be airtight, either, so I don't know why you bother bringing that up like it's supposed to prove anything.


Negative proof fallacy. Sasuke was breathing in Susanoo-the FULL Susanoo- for a while. 
Has it been shown to keep air out? No. Would the Mizukage's mist still have failed? Unknown. She can make it more or less corrosive, though




> Which attacks, specifically? Anything given a superlative claim by the databooks that didn't deserve it was usually contradicted at some point. We have never seen the Yata no Kagami's impenetrable status contradicted. On top of that, the databooks are notorious for hyperbole and poetic exaggeration; Zetsu is not. He was making an assertion based on knowledge he came to possess through means we are not privileged to know, using observations he had made of fighters and techniques of the highest order of magnitude within the Narutoverse.


Plenty. Yomi Numa, Amaterasu, Chou Oodama Rasengan...the list goes on and on and on and on.
So a startled, awed Zetsu equates to ultimate knowledge? A third party, fallible character has absolute knowledge the first time he's even SEEING the technique?
Okay, then Pain is invincible. And unbeatable if you have no knowledge of him. Fukasaku and Madara should be fair sources, no?



> If we're taking the databook verbatum now, then I'd like to cite Itachi's lightspeed Suiton: Suigadan no Jutsu as an instant GG to this thread.


Then I cite Haku, GG




> It possesses the Seisshitsu Henka, the Ultimate Nature Modifying Ability, but it can change its nature to reflect physical and spiritual attacks as well. "Nature" doesn't refer specifically to "elemental nature", more accurately, it refers to the mirror's physical properties.


It said it's endowed with the chakra alterations...implying....
There's always a limit. Especially in a low tier shonen series like Naruto



> Transporting it to a different space isn't the same as penetrating it. Also, Kakashi doesn't have Jiraiya's chakra levels, so that argument is irrelevant.


No, the argument has relevance. If Kakashi's stamina was increased to that level, then he could remove it, or bypass it, already proving the exception.
Or absorbing it, etc




> I never made that assertion. I have an open mind, and anything is possible in Shounen as far as I'm concerned. But that's not the same as adamantly proclaiming that it has infinite power.



You are adamantly doing just that here



> There should still be oxygen inside Susano'o, otherwise Itachi couldn't breathe. If Sasuke could survive getting grazed by the blast simply by hopping in Manda's mouth, I don't see why it's such a big issue with you when I insist that Itachi would survive it encased in a Jutsu that ripped apart a creature larger and more powerful than Manda.


1. Sasuke fought in Susanoo for a more extended time without suffocating. That only indicates it is not totally airtight. It's never been shown blocking anything microscopic
2. Sasuke survived C0 by getting in Manda's mouth before the blast washed over him-don't ask me how- let Manda take the blast, which killed him.
The difference is? Itachi and Susanoo are not invincible even if you assert YM is. C0 will still get Kirin and Itachi, suck all the oxygen out given Itachi is human and operates under those directives and all. Never mind the whiplash issue.
Susanoo killing the Hydra doesn't mean it can tank Susanoo. 




> Kirin was never shown piercing the Yata no Kagami. When Itachi reactivates Susano'o, it is just the ribcage; the other layers and the two spiritual items take extra time to form after that.


That is because when damaged, Susanoo should logically need to reform. Like when Danzo tore it open. Unless you want to argue that it stays damaged forever. Otherwise, Itachi should lack it forever.
Itachi is lying down injured. Susanoo is GONE, it then reforms.
There is no evidence that on their own, Itachi is incapable of instantly summoning it if Sasuke can do likewise




> That's just it: We haven't.


Then stop declaring it's invincible.




> The Yata no Kagami is not made of chakra.


Yes, it is. It's a part of Susanoo, formed from chakra and endowed with all nature alterations.





> No you haven't. Nowhere have we seen anyone activate a full, perfected Susano'o in under a millisecond. Even if it could be done in a second, or a tenth of a second, we're talking about one *one-thousandth* of a second; there is absolutely nothing to suggest that it could be done that quickly.


Sasuke summoned his instantly.
Why would Itachi be capable of doing the same when Sasuke gave him EVERY WARNING? If Susanoo just appears when the user wills it, then it appears, full and completely, unless you want to argue Itachi was stupid enough to gamble his life and goal on a maybe.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

> When Itachi actually activates Susano'o again,
> 
> 
> 
> this is what we get. Not that "LOL INSTANT FULL SUSANO'O + ITEMS" business you're trying to sell me.


when Danzo damaged Susanoo, it obviously needed to reform which took time. Why would this be different? Notice, despite 'tanking,' Susanoo is gone, and Itachi is damaged, implying Kirin went through




> Absolutely, but that still doesn't change the fact that I have to execute that thought in the fraction of a second between the bullet leaving the barrel of the gun and entering my skull. Moreover, maybe I can't manifest it exactly at the speed of thought; maybe I can initiate it that quickly, but maybe, just maybe, it takes a fraction of a second longer to actually complete.


If you are ready




> Madara jokingly/sarcastically referred to Pain as invincible, AFTER he had been defeated. Fukasaku's statement was correct when and where he made it; no one among the living, on the face of the planet, who wasn't Pain's own ally, could defeat Pain without knowing his secret.


'Been defeated?' They were discussing how he killed Jiraiya. Madara was basically saying "He gave the invincible Pain a tough time? Wow, he was really something alright." Given Konan always snapped back after Madara so much as showed caution over Pain's abilities, she was quiet there. No "spare us your sarcasm!" 
And Fukasaku didn't say Pain's own ally. He said ANYONE. That includes Itachi, Jriaiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, any other member of Akatsuki and so forth.
Madara was blatantly pissed off he lost Pain. He didn't mock him. He cursed Naruto for throwing things off and said losing Nagato was "Certainly not plan A."




> Danzou took one layer of flesh off the back of Sasuke's imperfect Susano'o. And that was *Sasuke's* Susano'o.


'1 layer of flesh?' He stripped it to the bone and left a gap open where Sasuke was vulnerable. 
Secondly, how do the techniques differ? Does Itachi's need to slowly build back up but Sasuke's doesn't? 



> Furthermore, no one is saying Susano'o>all, just that it can't be penetrated while it is up, which is different.


Despite evidence to the contrary. It's a matter of force applied


> Itachi's.
> 
> They're all valid within the contexts in which they are given. Kakuzu's Doton: Domu makes him effectively invincible unless you can nullify the ability with a Raiton attack. Pain was invincible to anyone who would stand against him without knowledge of his abilities/secret. Itachi is invincible as long as Susano'o is up.


Yeah, the umm...statement? Said 'apart from Raiton, he's invincible.' Unless you think Kakuzu could tank Chou Oodama Rasengan, Amaterasu, the Sword of Totsuka....quagmire here



> Because the guy who witnessed an explosion with a 10km radius called it impenetrable. It's not like I'm going purely off hyperbole here; plenty of techniques and people have been hyped up with hyperbole, but this is a bit of a special case since this particular item's superlative status was proclaimed by one who has seen some of the Narutoverse's top-tier firepower.


Yeah, actually, you kind of are going on hyperbole here. A fallible third party character seeing a technique called it invincible due to the one item specifically that can't protect everything. And Zetsu only saw the explosion from a distance. What, was Zetsu also supposed to say "He's invincible! Except from space-time attacks...and the Rikudou-sennin, and probably the Kyuubi...oh, and if the moon fell into him!"



> For that matter, this is a guy who watches bar fights between Akatsuki members. It's safe to say he recognizes power when he sees it.


Sure. I trust Madara and Fukasaku more, though




> Like/as=simile. Not a literal comparison. Kishi also writes in the databooks that Enma has a body as hard as steel when in Kongo Nyoi form in an entry relating to Orochimaru and the Kusanagi no Tsurugi, even though the name itself means "Diamond Staff" and the databook entry for Enma says the staff's durability is "adamantine/diamond-hard."



It's a direct statement. Hot as the sun means...hot as the sun.
Again, is that true or not? And Niku, if you keep insulting, then I'm going to just ignore you. It's getting old.


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## Nikushimi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi will immediately figure everything out and activate Susanoo because..he's Itachi?



Let's go through the thought process of a Sharingan user facing C4:

"Hm, that Deidara guy just got hella-pissed, now he spit out a giant clay model that looks like himself. Oh shit, it's expanding, it's gonna blow! I gotta run! Huh? Nothing happened. Was it a dud? Hey wait a minute, what's this my Sharingan see? An ominous cloud of chakra moving towards me? Say, why is he grinning like that? No, no, this doesn't add up at all. I'd better..."


CHOOSE YOUR ENDING:

For "...protect myself from that fucking chakra cloud using my impenetrable barrier that I can activate at will", turn to page 213.

For "...stand here gawking like an idiot and take a DEEP BREATH", turn to page 69. 


It's not really because he's Itachi. It's because he's, you know...not mentally handicapped.



> He will then blind himself, realize there was no explosion and take it down. And die



"HURR DURR, THERE WAS NO EXPLOSION, JUST A BIG OMINOUS CLOUD OF CHAKRA. I GUESS I'LL TOTALLY LET MY GUARD DOWN NOW."

Protip: Itachi's tier 5 in the Intelligence department isn't just for show. Give him some credit, damn it.



> Yeah, it took a long fight for Deidara to freak out over Sasuke. Deidara'd likely drop C3 first before resorting to anything.



Unless Deidara skipped C3 and invented C4 first, which is absolutely ridiculous, his statement that he designed C4 to kill Itachi specifically suggests that his earlier creations were not sufficient for that task in his eyes.



> And givne there's no evidence Susanoo as a while will; block C4...



Concerning Susano'o being airtight, I should mention that while Danzou's Fuuton did blow a hole in one of the layers of Sasuke's Susano'o, it never actually made it through to Sasuke. So that means C4 will probably have no chance of making it through.



> When it comes to C4, it makes a difference



Says who? You? I'd certainly like to see what basis you have for making that assertion. Other than more of the usual attempting to downplay Itachi's power.



> Yeah, except seeing a cloud of chakra from what he has no reason to suspect isn't a dud bomb isn't equivalent to knowing all about a technique



Again, give Itachi some fucking credit as not being mentally retarded. Sasuke was able to perceive a threat, most of us fans would have been smart enough to perceive a threat, so there is absolutely no conceivable reason why Itachi of all people would not perceive a threat.



> Negative proof fallacy.



No it isn't. It's a simple fact. You can't disprove that it's airtight anymore than I can prove it is. That's not the same as an assertion that it is airtight. I have other evidence to back up that claim.



> Sasuke was breathing in Susanoo-the FULL Susanoo- for a while.



Have you ever been in a car with the windows rolled up for an extended period of time? Susano'o is the size of a fucking house. There would be enough air inside to sustain the user far longer than the technique itself can be maintained.



> Has it been shown to keep air out? No.



See: Danzou's Fuuton.



> Would the Mizukage's mist still have failed? Unknown. She can make it more or less corrosive, though



Good for her, but it's irrelevant since Deidara's C4 is not corrosive.



> Plenty. Yomi Numa, Amaterasu, Chou Oodama Rasengan...the list goes on and on and on and on.



Chou Oodama Rasengan and Yomi Numa were never given any claims of invincibility.



> So a startled, awed Zetsu equates to ultimate knowledge? A third party, fallible character has absolute knowledge the first time he's even SEEING the technique?



Obviously Zetsu has prior knowledge of the spiritual items, since he called them by name and described their capabilities. Unless you want to argue that Zetsu just made that all shit up.



> Okay, then Pain is invincible. And unbeatable if you have no knowledge of him. Fukasaku and Madara should be fair sources, no?



They are. Pain was invincible when those statements were made. There wasn't a person among the living who could defeat him without knowledge.



> Then I cite Haku, GG



Haku's not in this match, but nice try. 



> It said it's endowed with the chakra alterations...implying....



Implying what? That it can modify its properties to counteract those of elemental Ninjutsu? So what? It's stated to be an incorporeal, spiritual shield. It is not chakra.



> There's always a limit. Especially in a low tier shonen series like Naruto



Naruto hasn't really been low tier since all the stuff about the Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi Bijuu was revealed. If there are characters that can fucking fly through space and make moons, sealing away the body of an entity with the sum-total power of the nine Bijuu (a collection of power that Pain was going to use to wipe entire countries off the face of the planet, repeatedly), then I see absolutely nothing wrong with a supernatural mirror expressly stated to reflect all attacks being capable of just that, within the fictional universe into which it was introduced.

Kishimoto wanted to make Itachi powerful, and that's exactly what he did. The sooner you come to terms with that, the better.



> No, the argument has relevance. If Kakashi's stamina was increased to that level, then he could remove it, or bypass it, already proving the exception.



The mirror is stated to *reflect/nullify all attacks*. The effect of Kakashi's Kamui would be no different than picking it up and carrying it to another location. It still hasn't been penetrated by anything, just displaced, which Susano'o accomplishes by virtue of simply carrying it. That is not a contradiction to it stated capacity.



> Or absorbing it, etc



No technique that exists in the Narutoverse can accomplish this, as far as we have seen. It's not chakra, and its properties nullify abilities like Pain Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin, which is chakra-based.



> You are adamantly doing just that here



I'm sorry, did you just tell *me* what I'm doing?

Punch holes in your own arguments all you like, but you leave mine the hell alone. I'll make my own assertions, and I won't be told what beliefs I am or am not espousing by anyone but myself.


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## Nikushimi (May 20, 2010)

> 1. Sasuke fought in Susanoo for a more extended time without suffocating. That only indicates it is not totally airtight. It's never been shown blocking anything microscopic
> 2. Sasuke survived C0 by getting in Manda's mouth before the blast washed over him-don't ask me how- let Manda take the blast, which killed him.



1. Susano'o could be airtight and Sasuke would still be able to breathe for hours inside of it. Danzou's Fuuton didn't make it through at all, which suggests that it is in fact airtight.

2. But he did it, didn't he? Case in point. If Manda could protect Sasuke from the blast, Susano'o can definitely protect Itachi.



> The difference is? Itachi and Susanoo are not invincible even if you assert YM is. C0 will still get Kirin and Itachi, suck all the oxygen out given Itachi is human and operates under those directives and all. Never mind the whiplash issue.



It'll get Kirin? 

Sasuke survived in Manda's mouth. There's absolutely no reason why Susano'o wouldn't protect Itachi from the same things.



> Susanoo killing the Hydra doesn't mean it can tank Susanoo.



This is just plain sloppy. Proof-reading is not hard. 

It proves that Susano'o is more powerful, more durable than something like Manda's hide, which is basically common sense.



> That is because when damaged, Susanoo should logically need to reform. Like when Danzo tore it open. Unless you want to argue that it stays damaged forever. Otherwise, Itachi should lack it forever.
> Itachi is lying down injured. Susanoo is GONE, it then reforms.



Then why does the ribcage appear suddenly, while the rest has to form on top of it steadily thereafter? Explain that one.



> There is no evidence that on their own, Itachi is incapable of instantly summoning it if Sasuke can do likewise



That's funny, because there's no evidence Sasuke can activate his full Susano'o instantly either. For that matter, even if he can activate the full version in a second, or some fraction of a second, there's absolutely NOTHING to suggest that he OR Itachi could manifest the Jutsu in its entirety within a millisecond.



> Then stop declaring it's invincible.



It's invincible to anything in the Narutoverse until Kishimoto retracts or contradicts the assertions he made both in the third databook and through Zetsu. You can go ahead and make up excuses why it's not true and cover your eyes and ears in protest, but until you bring me something of any substance to show that it's not invincible, I'm going to stick with what the manga and the third databook *explicitly state*: With the Yata no Kagami and Totsuka no Tsurugi at his disposal, Itachi is completely invincible.



> Yes, it is. It's a part of Susanoo, formed from chakra and endowed with all nature alterations.



No, it isn't:



It's a supernatural item. The fact that it possesses the capability to alter its nature to nullify chakra is simply one of its attributes. It can also turn back spiritual and physical attacks as well.



> Sasuke summoned his instantly.
> Why would Itachi be capable of doing the same when Sasuke gave him EVERY WARNING?



Because regardless of Sasuke's warning, Itachi didn't actually erect the Jutsu until Kirin was fired.



> If Susanoo just appears when the user wills it, then it appears, full and completely, unless you want to argue Itachi was stupid enough to gamble his life and goal on a maybe.



No. But if you could possibly have any concept of what a millisecond is, you'd realize how utterly amazing it is that Itachi could even form a coherent thought in that span of time, let alone defend himself. Even if Susano'o COULD be activated at will, in full, it would not surprise me in the least if it didn't have time to manifest mid-strike against Kirin. Last I read about it, the speed of lightning is approximately Mach 172, somewhere in the neighborhood of a sixth to a third the speed of light (I forget which). That's so insanely fast that it puts Itachi's reaction speed at massively-hypersonic levels simply by virtue of the fact that he was able to respond in that instant.



Lightysnake said:


> when Danzo damaged Susanoo, it obviously needed to reform which took time. Why would this be different? Notice, despite 'tanking,' Susanoo is gone, and Itachi is damaged, implying Kirin went through



When Itachi activates Susano'o, the ribcage lights up like a Christmas tree, like he just flipped a switch. Not so for the rest of it, including the items.



> If you are ready



It doesn't matter if I'm ready or not; the fastest person alive could be ready to catch a bullet and still come nowhere close to accomplishing it, because it's simply too fast.



> 'Been defeated?' They were discussing how he killed Jiraiya. Madara was basically saying "He gave the invincible Pain a tough time? Wow, he was really something alright." Given Konan always snapped back after Madara so much as showed caution over Pain's abilities, she was quiet there. No "spare us your sarcasm!"



Konan never "snapped" at Madara. Madara asked if Pain could accomplish his given mission, and Konan interjected that he had never lost a battle. When Madara calls Pain invincible during their meeting, he is being cheeky. He doesn't say "Pain, you are invincible my homie", he says "So he gave the 'invincible Pain' a tough time." Obviously it's not meant literally. He's just being an asshat.



> And Fukasaku didn't say Pain's own ally. He said ANYONE. That includes Itachi, Jriaiya, Tsunade, Orochimaru, any other member of Akatsuki and so forth.



You're taking it too literally. Fukasaku's statement would not logically include anyone allied with Pain, since there is no conceivable reason why a fight to the death would break out between them. He was talking about any possibility of defeating Pain, among those willing to try it, which means Konoha and its allies.



> Madara was blatantly pissed off he lost Pain. He didn't mock him. He cursed Naruto for throwing things off and said losing Nagato was "Certainly not plan A."



Of course it wasn't Madara's "Plan A", but he did have a "Plan B", didn't he? Pain was never so well-regarded by Madara that the guy never took shots at even him. Madara went as far as to refer to Pain/Nagato as just another one of his pawns/subordinates, both to Sasuke, and to Zetsu in private.

This is all massively irrelevant to our discussion, though; the nature of Pain's "invincibility" is not the same as Itachi's, or the Yata no Kagami's.


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## Nikushimi (May 20, 2010)

> '1 layer of flesh?' He stripped it to the bone and left a gap open where Sasuke was vulnerable.



You could still see muscle tissue as well as the spine. Sasuke was not exposed.



> Secondly, how do the techniques differ? Does Itachi's need to slowly build back up but Sasuke's doesn't?



This is irrelevant, because neither has shown the ability to fully activate it in a millisecond. When Itachi did it, the only thing he reactivated instantly was the ribcage.



> Despite evidence to the contrary. It's a matter of force applied



There is no evidence to the contrary. You haven't supplied a single instance of the Yata no Kagami being penetrated, or anyone even saying that that is a possibility. On the other hand, I can show you it tanking a stab with Sasuke's Kusanagi, and I can even show you *two different sources* claiming it to be impenetrable. From where I'm standing, it looks like you're out of chakra, Sasuke.



> Yeah, the umm...statement? Said 'apart from Raiton, he's invincible.' Unless you think Kakuzu could tank Chou Oodama Rasengan, Amaterasu, the Sword of Totsuka....quagmire here



Again, you're taking it too literally; no one Kakuzu faced could use any of those things at the time. But to be perfectly fair, I do think he could tank Chou Oodama Rasengan as long as he is using Doton: Domu. Even without it, he survived Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken, so he's one durable friend.

The Totsuka no Tsurugi is an incorporeal sword, one that is stated to be a variant of and a counter to the Kusanagi no Tsurugi. Since the Kusanagi's special characteristic is its extreme hardness (able to cut diamond), what does that imply? It suggests that physical obstacles are probably not an issue for the Totsuka no Tsurugi; it can pierce anything, hence why Zetsu said that it, in conjunction with the Yata no Kagami, made Itachi completely invincible.



> Yeah, actually, you kind of are going on hyperbole here. A fallible third party character seeing a technique called it invincible due to the one item specifically that can't protect everything. And Zetsu only saw the explosion from a distance. What, was Zetsu also supposed to say "He's invincible! Except from space-time attacks...and the Rikudou-sennin, and probably the Kyuubi...oh, and if the moon fell into him!"



I wouldn't expect Zetsu to make the assertion if it weren't...you know...true. Because then what it comes back to is, Zetsu is either a liar, or an idiot. It makes far more sense to me to trust that he knows what he's talking about, since he was in fact able to name the spiritual items, describe their properties, and has seen more than anyone's fair share of destructive power. I'd think he would know. Moreover, I think the fact that he was so amazed, so awed, to the point that he was sweating bullets and gulping in fear, says a lot about the kind of unstoppable monster that Uchiha Itachi really was.



> Sure. I trust Madara and Fukasaku more, though



Nothing they have said contests Zetsu's claim. If anything did, I wouldn't be advocating the Yata no Kagami's invincibility.



> It's a direct statement. Hot as the sun means...hot as the sun.
> Again, is that true or not?



"Like" or "as" means it's a simile. The fact that we know it's not the case...further supports the idea that it was a simile, because Kishimoto has no reason to just lie about something like that.


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## machiavelli2009 (May 20, 2010)

i still dont get the argument at 50m deidara rapes anyone as long as his bombs have a 50m range
they dont therefore he looses


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## ? (May 20, 2010)

deidara wins.


with full knowledge deidara will fly far out of itachi's range, making pretty much everything itachi can use ineffective. from that point C4, C3 spam or a multitude of things can finish itachi off.

seriously, this is an unfair match-up.


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## grinninggrizzly (May 20, 2010)

1. Deidara created C4 as a 'foolproof' plan to defeat Itachi. IOW, he knew anything else was futile. Plus, that apparently was futile too coz he was clueless as to the hax vision of the sharingan.

2. Sasuke evaded every single bomb(including C2) that deidara threw at him, until after he stepped on a mine and injured his feet. That and the whole point of C2 was to restrict sasuke's movements SO THAT deidara's missiles COULD hit. Sasuke made that quite clear actually, he didn't fuss about how the missiles were OMG impossible to evade, evidenced by how easily he used a SINGLE wing to jump out of the way of a missile. All that super fast missile thing is just fanfiction. Sasuke's feet were injured and there was no way he could move freely without stepping on a mine. Also, as to their inferior speed, sasuke took out a scroll and summoned two huge shurikens despite this 'super fast' bombardment.
That said, Itachi can dodge any C2 thrown at him coz he's faster than sasuke AND, as deidara clearly admitted, the beauty of C2 lies in restricting the subject's movements with mies, which he won't be able to do.

3. Itachi can read deidara like a book. He clearly saw through his little ruse back in the day and also dodged his mighty explosion in AN ENCLOSED SPACE. What makes you think he'll be able to tag him in an open field? 

4. Escaping the mini bombs is easy. Regardless of whether sasuke flew or ran, the distance covered to clear the dome is no different. Itachi wouldn't have a problem with that.

5. So what if deidara can see through genjutsu? That has never stopped Itachi from using it(on sasuke for instance); and besides all he needs is a little distraction.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Let's go through the thought process of a Sharingan user facing C4:
> 
> "Hm, that Deidara guy just got hella-pissed, now he spit out a giant clay model that looks like himself. Oh shit, it's expanding, it's gonna blow! I gotta run! Huh? Nothing happened. Was it a dude? Hey wait a minute, what's this my Sharingan see? An ominous cloud of chakra moving towards me? Say, why is he grinning like that? No, no, this doesn't add up at all. I'd better..."



Except with Itachi, he'd be using it right off. IE: not freaking out. Never mind that Itachi would probably attempt an escape otherwise and still be breathing...




> CHOOSE YOUR ENDING:
> 
> For "...protect myself from that fucking chakra cloud using my impenetrable barrier that I can activate at will", turn to page 213.
> 
> For "...stand here gawking like an idiot and take a DEEP BREATH", turn to page 69.


Or option three: Try to run.
Option four, test it with a bunshin, see nothing immediately happens.




> It's not really because he's Itachi. It's because he's, you know...not mentally handicapped.


Listening to this argument, it wouldn't be shocking if some people just thought he'd sprout wings to fly out




> "HURR DURR, THERE WAS NO EXPLOSION, JUST A BIG OMINOUS CLOUD OF CHAKRA. I GUESS I'LL TOTALLY LET MY GUARD DOWN NOW."
> 
> Protip: Itachi's tier 5 in the Intelligence department isn't just for show. Give him some credit, damn it.


Sasuke even thought it was a dud with the crowd of chakra until he saw Deidara's expression.
Unl;ess the same exact circumstances happen, that's no issue. And given Deidara has full knowledge...he can even just use a small C4




> Unless Deidara skipped C3 and invented C4 first, which is absolutely ridiculous, his statement that he designed C4 to kill Itachi specifically suggests that his earlier creations were not sufficient for that task in his eyes.


Evidence that he had C3 when he was 9




> Concerning Susano'o being airtight, I should mention that while Danzou's Fuuton did blow a hole in one of the layers of Sasuke's Susano'o, it never actually made it through to Sasuke. So that means C4 will probably have no chance of making it through.


So, Danzo's chakra can bust through, but normal air so normal air and microscopic bombs won't?
This argument makes sense how?




> Says who? You? I'd certainly like to see what basis you have for making that assertion. Other than more of the usual attempting to downplay Itachi's power.



Or we just don't think he's invincible like you do.



> Again, give Itachi some fucking credit as not being mentally retarded. Sasuke was able to perceive a threat, most of us fans would have been smart enough to perceive a threat, so there is absolutely no conceivable reason why Itachi of all people would not perceive a threat.


Sasuke perceived a threat only due to Deidara's expression and got clear because he could fly. With full knowledge Deidara knows the toll Susanoo'd take. So he merely stays out of range.
And maybe, just maybe, Itachi'd lack the ability to react and doesn't put up Susanoo at the drop of a hat




> No it isn't. It's a simple fact. You can't disprove that it's airtight anymore than I can prove it is. That's not the same as an assertion that it is airtight. I have other evidence to back up that claim.


Go on: prove it's airtiht then if you're asserting it




> Have you ever been in a car with the windows rolled up for an extended period of time? Susano'o is the size of a fucking house. There would be enough air inside to sustain the user far longer than the technique itself can be maintained.


Prove it's airtight.
Go on. Blocking physical blades made of chakra isn;t airright




> See: Danzou's Fuuton.


Physical chakra, next.




> Good for her, but it's irrelevant since Deidara's C4 is not corrosive.


It's relevant as she could damage Susanoo itself. Something smaller and finer couldn't go through how?




> Chou Oodama Rasengan and Yomi Numa were never given any claims of invincibility.


*Super-Big Ball Rasengan (超大玉螺旋丸, Chouoodama Rasengan)
Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Jiraiya

Blowing violently from the palm of his hand is a raging storm!!
Tearing up the sky and swallowing everything!!
*

Swallowing everything? 




> Obviously Zetsu has prior knowledge of the spiritual items, since he called them by name and described their capabilities. Unless you want to argue that Zetsu just made that all shit up.


Your point being? He'd never seen them before




> They are. Pain was invincible when those statements were made. There wasn't a person among the living who could defeat him without knowledge.



The databook says so as well. When it also had information on Itachi and his supposed invincibility.
Huh. 




> Haku's not in this match, but nice try.


Did you miss that point completely?




> Implying what? That it can modify its properties to counteract those of elemental Ninjutsu? So what? It's stated to be an incorporeal, spiritual shield. It is not chakra.


We have one other instance of things stated to be incorporeal or etheral/spiritual: Tayuya's warriors. They were specifically stated to be constructs made of chakra. The Mirror?
*Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.*
Change its own attributes, endowed with all nature alterations. Heavily implying it's chakra based.
And:
*he materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata**
Susanoo is materialized chakra. And here it states the sword and shield are part of it



> Naruto hasn't really been low tier since all the stuff about the Rikudou Sennin and the Juubi Bijuu was revealed. If there are characters that can fucking fly through space and make moons, sealing away the body of an entity with the sum-total power of the nine Bijuu (a collection of power that Pain was going to use to wipe entire countries off the face of the planet, repeatedly), then I see absolutely nothing wrong with a supernatural mirror expressly stated to reflect all attacks being capable of just that, within the fictional universe into which it was introduced.


One godly mythical figure in the past doesn't raise your ranking all that much, plenty Shonen have them.
Most of those things were also kind of not in the series.
And again, you kind of continuously ignore that Susanoo isn't the only thing given those props



> Kishimoto wanted to make Itachi powerful, and that's exactly what he did. The sooner you come to terms with that, the better.


Powerful? Yes. Unbeatable god who can't lose? Nope.
He made Pain stronger for one




> The mirror is stated to *reflect/nullify all attacks*. The effect of Kakashi's Kamui would be no different than picking it up and carrying it to another location. It still hasn't been penetrated by anything, just displaced, which Susano'o accomplishes by virtue of simply carrying it. That is not a contradiction to it stated capacity.


Kamui is an offensive attack. If he warps away all Susanoo except for the mirror, it's failed in its purpose.
So there exists an attack that can bypass it. That it cannot just nullify?




> No technique that exists in the Narutoverse can accomplish this, as far as we have seen. It's not chakra, and its properties nullify abilities like Pain Gakidou's Fuujutsu Kyuuin, which is chakra-based.


Hardly. Yata's Mirror nullifies attacks. Pain's technique is a defensive one.
In fact, if you want to argue "But Kishimoto said..." let's look at Preta's:
*Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
User: Pain

An inexhaustible vortex, absorbing all techniques!!

By spinning the chakra flow within one's body in the opposite direction, all of the opponent's techniques aimed at oneself will be absorbed. The absorbed chakra is dispersed within the body. Like a bottomless swamp, the power is swallowed.

↑All techniques are absorbed and made ineffective, regardless of the nature of the chakra.*

The databook strongly implies YM and the Totsuka are made of chakra. The only other time in the manga something has been described as 'spiritual' was specifically because they were made of chakra alone.  Susanoo itself is called materialized chakra. The items are stated to be part of the technique, nothing about Itachi's alone.






> I'm sorry, did you just tell *me* what I'm doing?
> 
> Punch holes in your own arguments all you like, but you leave mine the hell alone. I'll make my own assertions, and I won't be told what beliefs I am or am not espousing by anyone but myself.



What you are making are contradictions to your own argument. I specifically noted such a contradiction here. You should not get angry when this is pointed out, quite frankly. Especially when your argument focuses on merely taking some things you want to at face value and ignoring the others I have provided that are equally as valid.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> You could still see muscle tissue as well as the spine. Sasuke was not exposed.



Danzo specifically notes a gap at the base. 

"An opening, now's my chance!"



> This is irrelevant, because neither has shown the ability to fully activate it in a millisecond. When Itachi did it, the only thing he reactivated instantly was the ribcage.


You've still provided no evidence to this.  I have shown evidence that a full Susanoo can be instantly summoned. 
And I note the words "fully activate."  We have seen Sasuke fully activate his Susanoo immediately several times, both before and after completion.
So, earlier on you were praising Itachi's intelligence. Now you're saying he was careless enough to risk his life to Kirin? Again, you're espousing different beliefs




> There is no evidence to the contrary. You haven't supplied a single instance of the Yata no Kagami being penetrated, or anyone even saying that that is a possibility. On the other hand, I can show you it tanking a stab with Sasuke's Kusanagi, and I can even show you *two different sources* claiming it to be impenetrable. From where I'm standing, it looks like you're out of chakra, Sasuke.


And I maintain; Kirin.
I have shown a full Susanoo being instantly summoned. We know Itachi can summon his instantly. We know from the lack of one around him, the damage Itachi had sustained and the proven need to reform, if it was destroyed it'd have to reform.
And tanking a stab from a chokuto doesn't strike me as an upper tier feat. 





> Again, you're taking it too literally; no one Kakuzu faced could use any of those things at the time. But to be perfectly fair, I do think he could tank Chou Oodama Rasengan as long as he is using Doton: Domu. Even without it, he survived Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken, so he's one durable friend.


He 'survived' it because he had two other hearts to die first. He was left utterly paralyzed and dying after it. And Chou Oodama Rasengan is stated to be able to hollow out a mountain. As well as swallow or devour a person
And why is it when the databook uses absolute language any other time, it's hyperbole, but when it comes to Susanoo...




> The Totsuka no Tsurugi is an incorporeal sword, one that is stated to be a variant of and a counter to the Kusanagi no Tsurugi. Since the Kusanagi's special characteristic is its extreme hardness (able to cut diamond), what does that imply? It suggests that physical obstacles are probably not an issue for the Totsuka no Tsurugi; it can pierce anything, hence why Zetsu said that it, in conjunction with the Yata no Kagami, made Itachi completely invincible.


Show me anything saying the Totsuka can pierce 'anything.' Your extrapolations are insufficient evidence




> I wouldn't expect Zetsu to make the assertion if it weren't...you know...true. Because then what it comes back to is, Zetsu is either a liar, or an idiot. It makes far more sense to me to trust that he knows what he's talking about, since he was in fact able to name the spiritual items, describe their properties, and has seen more than anyone's fair share of destructive power. I'd think he would know. Moreover, I think the fact that he was so amazed, so awed, to the point that he was sweating bullets and gulping in fear, says a lot about the kind of unstoppable monster that Uchiha Itachi really was.


Yeah, and nobody ever denied Itachi with Susanoo is a force to be reckoned with.
That doesn't mean he's unstoppable. Quite the opposite. Especially to someone with knowledge. Especially when he can only maintain Susanoo for so long. Especially when his boss can just trap him in a crushing moon, or absorb it, or even disperse it.




> Nothing they have said contests Zetsu's claim. If anything did, I wouldn't be advocating the Yata no Kagami's invincibility.


Name me one other person who was a direct witness to the fight to contest it.
When have we seen a complete Susanoo again to even make such claims?




> "Like" or "as" means it's a simile. The fact that we know it's not the case...further supports the idea that it was a simile, because Kishimoto has no reason to just lie about something like that.
> 
> -Snip-



It's a direct comparison is what it is. Again, you're allowing for hyperbole in one place and not another


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Didn't sasuke state that dodging the mist of C4 was simple once he could see it with his sharingan?

More than likely deidara's itachi trump just isn't enough. It would be easily evaded by sasuke, then deidara would freak out in character and blow himself up, itachi then survives with susanoo.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Didn't sasuke state that dodging the mist of C4 was simple once he could see it with his sharingan?
> 
> More than likely deidara's itachi trump just isn't enough. It would be easily evaded by sasuke, then deidara would freak out in character and blow himself up, itachi then survives with susanoo.



this has been discussed and answered *again and again*

He said he dodged it because *he saw where Deidara was flying*/. What can Sasuke do? FLY.

And did Deidara flip and self destruct when Sasuke dodged it? No.


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## Vergil642 (May 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> They were physically there.



You have no proof they were there. Why would they appear in a victim's eyes _one time_ and never any other time?

Unless you think that Sasuke's Genjutsu for _one time only_ made the Sharingan appear in a victim's eye despite it having _never_ done this before or since, it's far more likely it's going to be a way of telling the reader that "hey, this poor bastard got Genjutsu'd".



> The databook says otherwise. At no point to my knowledge is Genjutsu with the Cs2 declared to be stronger. And he trained against Itachi's specifically.
> 
> *He vowed to break the curse of the Sharingan through his Art, with his trump card being his left eye, concealed under his eye-scope, immune to the Sharingan's genjutsu.. Since then, Deidara has been waiting for a good opportunity to get his revenge.*



So he's been training specifically for that. This is swell. Sasuke trained specifically to beat Itachi. He was incapable of doing so without Itachi throwing the fight.

Deidara knows nothing of Tsukuyomi. Even if he could break Itachi's Genjutsu despite not having the feats to back this claim up, having never broken Sharingan Genjutsu of Itachi's level before, the gap between Sasuke's basic Genjutsu and Itachi's Tsukuyomi is just waaaaay too big for him to cross.



> He broke CS2 Sasuke's once already-if not then explain how it was still happening when Sasuke was flying. And he trained it SPECIFICALLY for Sasuke's.
> Databook and manga both have Deidara seeing through genjutsu and he here has full knowledge. It's looking kind of bad for you here in all honesty.
> You have nothing but "He's Itachi, how can he lose?"
> And 'lacks feats?' I suppose you'll just ignore the manga now. Deidara trained to break Itachi's, so we assume he can. Deal with it.



No he didn't. Prior to the Genjutsu being used Sasuke was _not using CS2._ In other words, the Genjutsu used would have been basic Sharingan Genjutsu without any buffs. He'd have to have CS2 active to utilise the buff it gives to Genjutsu.

Again, show me the DB saying specifically he's immune to Genjutsu. The manga shows Deidara seeing through _inferior_ Genjutsu to Itachi's, and again the difference between it and Tsukuyomi is truly insane.

Oh and again, Sasuke trained all his life to beat Itachi. So I guess we can assume he was capable of that when they fought, despite it being explicitely said Itachi was throwing the fight throughout.



> Your point being? Sasuke summons snakes in place of his win. Independent creatures of him as they act, breathe and strike on their own. They are not part of his body and there is no proof a Chidori will affect Sasuke's wings when we only see the current running in his body without touching the wings.





A summon is an independent creature, like Manda or Bunta, with it's own life force.

Senei Jashu snakes have shown no independent thought, nor any indication they're living things on their own.

They are not the same thing, the latter being not alive.



> Good. And other translations can make it very clear. And at NO POINT does Sasuke, when giving a very detailed explanation of how he fought, ever say "Haha, I used Genjutsu and you fell for it!" coupled with that and the databook, accept you are wrong



His very detailed explanation doesn't concern Genjutsu. It concerns _how he escaped being asploded from inside despite having the C4 bombs within him._



> He was flying at Deidara with a Raiton activated, in CS2. Then Deidara yelled Katsu, staring with his genjutsu immune eye before he crashed through the trees.
> Would there be a point when he wasn't in CS2 when he could use it. And another time, when the Genjutsu was supposedly 'broken,' Sasuke is in CS2 flying behind Deidara. So he was in CS2 form using it



Yes, when _they're making eye contact_.

And funnily enough, you can activate CS2 _after utilising a jutsu._



> Proof they move faster than it spreads. Sasuke, again, flew away. Itachi can't do that and C4 keeps spreading. Not only that, Itachi can't replicate what Sasuke did so Deidara can still leave a minefield there, or a bunshin trap, or keep bombs coming. How much can Itachi do at once according to you?
> And I find it hilarious you accuse someone else of shutting off to any possibility when it's very clear you go into a fight thinking "Itachi wins" and invent a scenario for it even when you have to ignore direct manga evidence for it.
> 
> So, Sasuke says he escaped how? Seeing where Deidara was outside the cloud. Meaning, he escaped by getting to the same level of height. How'd he do that? Flight.



Sasuke and Itachi can move faster than the eye can see. This requires you to move at 200mph or something near that. Nothing indicates C4 spreads at that sort of speed. Ergo, Sasuke and Itachi can outrun it for at least a little while.

How's Deidara going to leave a minefield? He goes underground, starts leaving bombs, super. Itachi sees this and just leaves the area he's setting the bombs up in as _Itachi can see chakra too._ Deidara wastes chakra and clay for no good reason.

It's also nice you're switching from "argument" to "baseless accusation" to try and outdebate me. Works real well bro.

And again, he's explaining how he figured out how to escape the C4. Cloud of chakra indicates something is there, with Deidara staying out of the cloud of chakra it indicates that cloud of chakra is dangerous somehow. Sasuke thus stays outside the cloud of chakra.

Deidara's flying. Sasuke flies to reach and stab him. Simples. 



> It takes some persistent dishonesty to try to quote something and STILL mangle the meaning like this.
> Where was Deidara flying outside it? Above it. The translation can also be given 'above' the cloud. So Sasuke was able to avoid it how? By seeing where Deidara was, safely out of it, meaning he was able to fly out.



Pot. Kettle.

And of course Deidara's flying above it. When in the air he thinks he's outside Sasuke's range. Seriously, he flies in his every battle if it's at all possible. He's already above it anyway. What, do you think he's going to actually fly down, to the edge of the cloud?

He's flying above it because he's already there and going anywhere else is tactically retarded.

[When did Sasuke go to CS2 to engage Itachi in speed and hand to hand?
There's nothing slow about bombs that, when Deidara was serious, tagged CS2 Sasuke. -snip-Nice.[/QUOTE]

Deidara tagged CS2 Sasuke with a bomb after Sasuke realised he was caught in the minefield and _couldn't move._ Hitting a stationary target with a guided missile from a few metres doesn't make you accurate or the attack a high speed one.

Base Sasuke only engaged Itachi in Taijutsu in the real world for a brief second. They grabbed each other, they released each other. In the Genjutsu Sasuke got his ass thrown around. We know Itachi=Kakashi (although their encounter would indicate Itachi has a slight edge here) in Taijutsu and Kakashi's also shown superiority to Sasuke in Taijutsu.

Wow man, you accuse me of dishonesty when saying Deidara's snickering at Sasuke's speed? The guy continually remarks how Sasuke's fast, recognising repeatedly that he would be at a serious disadvantage if he was engaging Sasuke directly. He's feeling cocky because he knows Madara just planted mines and that despite Sasuke evading his C2 bomb, he's going to just run into a mine.

And please, scans for when Sasuke says "he's only testing me".

Let's reiterate, Deidara's popped C4 and Itachi's run away into the trees. He's outrunning the cloud of death and Deidara's dropping C2 bombs, but can't get a good shot in because of the fact there's trees all in the way. He has the added problem that if Itachi wants in one of these scenarios he can easily turn around, focus on Deidara and incinerate him with Amaterasu. Or can hold his breath, activate Susanoo, stand in the cloud and stab Deidara with the Sword of Totsuka before he knows what the fuck. After all, Orochimaru couldn't react to the sword, so why could someone around his level of speed dodge it?

Oh wait, it was a Genjutsu. As he spat up C4 Deidara made no effort to avoid looking at Itachi's eyes (why would he, he thinks he's immune to Genjutsu) and notes that somethings odd, his Sharingan looks different. Itachi pulls Tsukuyomi on him, mindfucking him into oblivion.

I can fanfic all I want too 

Difference is, Tsukuyomi oneshots Deidara the moment eye contact is made. Assuming Deidara is immune to Itachi's Genjutsu of course. It's going to take Deidara much longer to even get to using C4 than it is for Itachi to try Genjutsu and win, or if I'm to believe your rantings fail to Genjutsu Deidara and then simply escalate to use Tsukuyomi and win.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

he still stated that it was simple to dodge, do you have a reason that it is easier to dodge by going up as opposed to moving to the side? He was not able to dodge it just because he knew where deidara was flying that is misreading the manga.

He was able to percieve the "mist" which he could see, as being dangerous becuase he noticed that deidara was flying just outside of it's range. Itachi, being as analytical as he is would be able to notice the same thing, and proceed to move out of the mist. sasuke was easily able to dodge the mist and used genjutsu to prepare an oppurtunity to counter attack, which is why he flew up, not because that was his only way to avoid the jutsu. Itachi should make the same association as sasuke and move out of the range of the mist, breathing in none of it. Whether he uses genjutsu or not is irrelevant.


The whole theme of the deidara fight was that his art was inferior in the face of the sharingan. Deidara miscalculated his ultimate jutsu, the moment the sharingan was given the ability to see chakra and see chakra through other objects deidara's C4 became very dodgeable, even to the point where it was "simple" for sasuke. Itachi who is at least as fast simply avoids the mist rendering c4 useless unless used at super close range, like against sasuke. Any other explosion can be tanked by susanoo.

And vergil good point about the parrellels between sasuke and deidara, just becauses deidara prepared c4 especially for itachi doesn't mean it is enough. itachi was just better than sasuke, whose inferior eyes saw through all of deidara's jutsu. I also doubt that deidara can resist tsukiyomi, he was prepared for lesser genjutsu, but I doubt that he would know what hit him in the face of tsukiyomi, as not even the sharingan, which actually does give resistance to MS jutsu, combined with the massive chakra disruping boost of CS2 could break it in a timely manner. Itachi had sasuke at his mercy.

Lighty snake proof is more on you to prove that sasuke can fly upwards faster than itachi can move normally, you won't find any, all we know is that itachi is extremely fast, fast enough to keep up with cs2 sasuke who avoided c4, and even stated that he did it easily. common sense says that even if itachi was slightly slower he would still be able to escape something his kid brother escaped easily.

Vegil-- be careful about totsuka's speed, particularly using oro as a feat for it.

It is well documented that orochimaru was unconcerned about being hit by it before he realized what it was, and was busy pontificating. We don't know if oro could have dodged it if he were at all concerned about it's effect on him. He thought it was just a blade.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> he still stated that it was simple to dodge, do you have a reason that it is easier to dodge by going up as opposed to moving to the side? He was not able to dodge it just because he knew where deidara was flying that is misreading the manga.


*he says it himself/*/.

In the manga. Sasuke states he avoided it by *seeing Deidara flying out of its range




			He was able to percieve the "mist" which he could see, as being dangerous becuase he noticed that deidara was flying just outside of it's range. Itachi, being as analytical as he is would be able to notice the same thing, and proceed to move out of the mist. sasuke was easily able to dodge the mist and used genjutsu to prepare an oppurtunity to counter attack, which is why he flew up, not because that was his only way to avoid the jutsu. Itachi should make the same association as sasuke and move out of the range of the mist, breathing in none of it. Whether he uses genjutsu or not is irrelevant.
		
Click to expand...

He dodged it BECAUSE HE CAN FLY.  HE SAID IT HIMSELF
Are you going to consistently ignore what's shown in favor of the guy with the Sharingan and refuse to hear any explanation? Because if you keep this up, I'm putting you on ignore. I'm sick of it. 




			The whole theme of the deidara fight was that his art was inferior in the face of the sharingan. Deidara miscalculated his ultimate jutsu, the moment the sharingan was given the ability to see chakra and see chakra through other objects deidara's C4 became very dodgeable, even to the point where it was "simple" for sasuke. Itachi who is at least as fast simply avoids the mist rendering c4 useless unless used at super close range, like against sasuke. Any other explosion can be tanked by susanoo.
		
Click to expand...

So what? Sasuke only escaped because as he said, he saw where Deidara was flying. Hey, when do we see Sasuke next? Flying! What did Deidara do? Easily saw through the genjuutsu he's immune to.  Sasuke dodged it by seeing Deidara flying over it and thus flying himself.
Can Itachi fly? no. So stop being obstinate*


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

If Susano'o was NOT airtight, Kirin would have struck Itachi because lightning travels with air as the medium. If you notice the size of the nano-bombs pictured inside the bloodstream, they are significantly larger than air molecules.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> You have no proof they were there. Why would they appear in a victim's eyes _one time_ and never any other time?
> 
> Unless you think that Sasuke's Genjutsu for _one time only_ made the Sharingan appear in a victim's eye despite it having _never_ done this before or since, it's far more likely it's going to be a way of telling the reader that "hey, this poor bastard got Genjutsu'd".


The sharingans physically appeared there, what's your point?
The art effect is something different. 




> So he's been training specifically for that. This is swell. Sasuke trained specifically to beat Itachi. He was incapable of doing so without Itachi throwing the fight.


Except Deidara has a mmove legitimately capable of getting the job done



> Deidara knows nothing of Tsukuyomi. Even if he could break Itachi's Genjutsu despite not having the feats to back this claim up, having never broken Sharingan Genjutsu of Itachi's level before, the gap between Sasuke's basic Genjutsu and Itachi's Tsukuyomi is just waaaaay too big for him to cross.


Tsukuyomi is short range. Deidara isn't in short range.

And in this fight, deidara has full knowledge




> No he didn't. Prior to the Genjutsu being used Sasuke was _not using CS2._ In other words, the Genjutsu used would have been basic Sharingan Genjutsu without any buffs. He'd have to have CS2 active to utilise the buff it gives to Genjutsu.
> 
> Again, show me the DB saying specifically he's immune to Genjutsu. The manga shows Deidara seeing through _inferior_ Genjutsu to Itachi's, and again the difference between it and Tsukuyomi is truly insane.



He provided the quote, did you miss it?

I also can't abide dishonesty:

there, Sasuke having used Genjutsu in CS2. 

Prove there's a buff, too. 


> Oh and again, Sasuke trained all his life to beat Itachi. So I guess we can assume he was capable of that when they fought, despite it being explicitely said Itachi was throwing the fight throughout.


If Sasuke hadn't given Itachi warning about Kirin, he would've won. Point?




> A summon is an independent creature, like Manda or Bunta, with it's own life force.


Like the snakes.



> Senei Jashu snakes have shown no independent thought, nor any indication they're living things on their own.
> 
> They are not the same thing, the latter being not alive.


Besides acting like snakes




> His very detailed explanation doesn't concern Genjutsu. It concerns _how he escaped being asploded from inside despite having the C4 bombs within him._


And nothing about having used Genjutsu on deidara to make him think he was dead.
Wonder why that is




> Yes, when _they're making eye contact_.
> 
> And funnily enough, you can activate CS2 _after utilising a jutsu._


Oh good. Prove he did.





> Sasuke and Itachi can move faster than the eye can see. This requires you to move at 200mph or something near that. Nothing indicates C4 spreads at that sort of speed. Ergo, Sasuke and Itachi can outrun it for at least a little while.


At least a little while. Okay.
Never mind Sasuke specifically dodged it via flying- transl;ations have him stating he escaped it by seeing Deidara flying *above it*
And Deidara will just let Itachi run and won't try to box him in? Kaaay



> How's Deidara going to leave a minefield? He goes underground, starts leaving bombs, super. Itachi sees this and just leaves the area he's setting the bombs up in as _Itachi can see chakra too._ Deidara wastes chakra and clay for no good reason.


Bunshin perhaps? Deidara's shown he can substitute for one without being noticed when watched by Sharingan users. Itachi cannot fly unlike Sasuke and has no Raiton, so he's still boxed in. And even when he could see them, Sasuke had to fly to avoid the mines and C2



> It's also nice you're switching from "argument" to "baseless accusation" to try and outdebate me. Works real well bro
> 
> 
> And again, he's explaining how he figured out how to escape the C4. Cloud of chakra indicates something is there, with Deidara staying out of the cloud of chakra it indicates that cloud of chakra is dangerous somehow. Sasuke thus stays outside the cloud of chakra.


By flying. We're gl;ad we're all on the same page



> Deidara's flying. Sasuke flies to reach and stab him. Simples.


So I see you're admitting he flew to escape it. Never mind Deidara prepared for it




> Pot. Kettle.
> 
> And of course Deidara's flying above it. When in the air he thinks he's outside Sasuke's range. Seriously, he flies in his every battle if it's at all possible. He's already above it anyway. What, do you think he's going to actually fly down, to the edge of the cloud?


Sasuke: I was able to avoid it when I saw you hovering above the cloud
Implying...



> He's flying above it because he's already there and going anywhere else is tactically retarded.


And because it's out of range. The cloud keeps spreading



> [When did Sasuke go to CS2 to engage Itachi in speed and hand to hand?
> There's nothing slow about bombs that, when Deidara was serious, tagged CS2 Sasuke. -snip-Nice.



Deidara tagged CS2 Sasuke with a bomb after Sasuke realised he was caught in the minefield and _couldn't move._ Hitting a stationary target with a guided missile from a few metres doesn't make you accurate or the attack a high speed one.[/Quote]
Sasuke already saw the mines and could fly. He was still forced to block by a faster faster when he was dodging them before. 



> Base Sasuke only engaged Itachi in Taijutsu in the real world for a brief second. They grabbed each other, they released each other. In the Genjutsu Sasuke got his ass thrown around. We know Itachi=Kakashi (although their encounter would indicate Itachi has a slight edge here) in Taijutsu and Kakashi's also shown superiority to Sasuke in Taijutsu.



What happens in the genjutsu world is up to Itachi, has no bearing at all on the real world.
So Sasuke DIDN'T go CS2 to fight Itachi CQC is that what you're saying? So you have no proof Itachi is faster, do you?



> Wow man, you accuse me of dishonesty when saying Deidara's snickering at Sasuke's speed? The guy continually remarks how Sasuke's fast, recognising repeatedly that he would be at a serious disadvantage if he was engaging Sasuke directly. He's feeling cocky because he knows Madara just planted mines and that despite Sasuke evading his C2 bomb, he's going to just run into a mine.


The anime has him laugh. The manga has him grinning with a 'kuku, he's fast...'
Sasuke states he was being tested there



> And please, scans for when Sasuke says "he's only testing me".




I can show other translations that lean to Deidara only toying with or testing his speed


> Let's reiterate, Deidara's popped C4 and Itachi's run away into the trees. He's outrunning the cloud of death and Deidara's dropping C2 bombs, but can't get a good shot in because of the fact there's trees all in the way.




Yeah, he needs a clear shot with THESE. Never mind, he's shown the ability to keep track of people like that, the possible mine field, Itachi being hit with these explosions...



> He has the added problem that if Itachi wants in one of these scenarios he can easily turn around, focus on Deidara and incinerate him with Amaterasu. Or can hold his breath, activate Susanoo, stand in the cloud and stab Deidara with the Sword of Totsuka before he knows what the fuck. After all, Orochimaru couldn't react to the sword, so why could someone around his level of speed dodge it?


Oh, so Itachi suddenly has knowledge of C4? Huh, didn't see that in the fight parameters.
Amaterasu is restricted. And also short range. And Itachi, blinded by Susanoo, gets a clear hit on someone far away?
And Deidara is,m unlike Orochimaru, ready, paying attention and has knowledge. He'd probably just use a bunshin there and hide in the bird like he did with Sasuke



> Oh wait, it was a Genjutsu. As he spat up C4 Deidara made no effort to avoid looking at Itachi's eyes (why would he, he thinks he's immune to Genjutsu) and notes that somethings odd, his Sharingan looks different. Itachi pulls Tsukuyomi on him, mindfucking him into oblivion.


Short range Genjutsu. They're a distance away. Deidara has full knowledge here to boot



> I can fanfic all I want too
> 
> Difference is, Tsukuyomi oneshots Deidara the moment eye contact is made. Assuming Deidara is immune to Itachi's Genjutsu of course. It's going to take Deidara much longer to even get to using C4 than it is for Itachi to try Genjutsu and win, or if I'm to believe your rantings fail to Genjutsu Deidara and then simply escalate to use Tsukuyomi and win.



Deidara has knowledge, etc.
Full knowledge. Stop ignoring that


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> If Susano'o was NOT airtight, Kirin would have struck Itachi because lightning travels with air as the medium. If you notice the size of the nano-bombs pictured inside the bloodstream, they are significantly larger than air molecules.



Well, Kirin partially did.
You can tell because Itachi is burned, coughing up blood and missing a layer of clothing.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

What do you not understand lighty about what sasuke was actually saying. Ok ill get a manga page if you can't understand it normally



Where does sasuke state that the only way he could avoid the bombs was to fly over them? He does say that he noticed deidara was flying out of the range of the bombs, LIKE I SAID, allowing him to percieve the mist as dangerous, he then simply said avoiding the bombs was simple.

The manga even shows a picture of the mist, which is not much longer than it is tall.

Just because sasuke chose to fly up to deidara, attacking him with the opening he believed his genjutsu had made, does not mean that this was the only way he could escape it. 

Where mr. lightysnake does it state that sasuke escaped C4 only becuase of his ability to fly?

You are making an attribution error in your belief that just because sasuke chose to fly to deidara means that this was his only way of avoiding the mist.

Now lets see,

For you to substantiate such a claim you would 

A. Have to prove that sasuke can move upwards faster than he can run

I guarantee you won't find evidence of this

B. in relation to itachi prove that sasuke can somehow move more quickly, allowing him to dodge c4 while itachi could not.

You also won't find evidence of this.

Your whole previous statement is crap, why would he have to move upwards to deidara to avoid the mist when he can clearly see the mist with his sharingan?

The only importance of noticing deidara hovering right outside of c4's range is that it alerted sasuke to the danger of remaining in the mist/ breathing it in.

in conclusion you have no proof that sasuke flying upwards to deidara was his only way of avoid the mist WHICH HE CAN SEE. what is much more logical is that sasuke's action amounted to a logical counterattack, believing that he had fooled deidara with his genjutsu (which deidara saw through)

All manga evidence points to c4 being i quote "easy" to dodge if you can percieve the mini bombs, which itachi can.

As for putting me on ignore, fine, do it if you must, but it just makes you look like a weak debater, who cannot defend his own position.

if anything I have said or theorized is ridiculous and not backed with at least plausible manga scenes then by all means tell me where I am wrong, and why, and let's debate. Otherwise you just seem like you cannot back up your own positions.

Your turn

Prove to me

That 

A. Sasuke's only recourse was to fly to avoid c4.

B. That sasuke noticing deidara's position was important for any other reason than acknowledging hte minibombmist as dangerous

if you can do those two things then we have a debate

If you are just going to whine and say the same thing over and over again then debate with you is pointless. 

Corroborate your statements please.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> What do you not understand lighty about what sasuke was actually saying. Ok ill get a manga page if you can't understand it normally
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The official translation and others have Sasuke state he avoided it there because he saw *where Deidara was flying*.

What does that imply to you?

Here's another translation:
Sasuke: I couldn't see those explosives with my eyes...
Sasuke: But my Sharingan can tell the difference by the color of chakra...
Sasuke: I saw the chakra in those tiny bombs...
Sasuke: I saw them massing into a cloud.
Sasuke: And then I saw you flying just above the clouds, outside of their range, and then I understood.
Sasuke: So even if I couldn't exactly see those bombs, knowing where to go was easy.

And another:

Sasuke: Unfortunately for you, my sharingan allows me to see chakra as color...

Sasuke: Those miniature explosives laced with chakra?

Sasuke: Guess what? I saw them for the little puffs of smoke they were, right from the start!

Sasuke: I could tell the height you kept to was right above the explosives' range.

Saskue: With that, avoiding them was a no sweat at all...


Deidara: These eyes.... ku....

Sasuke: Bombs invisible to the naked eye... but my sharingan can see the color of chakra..

Sasuke: The tiny bombs that are filled with your chakra, I can see them clearly in the air in the shape of a big cloud of colored smoke.

Sasuke: Where you are staying in the air is just outside of the range of where that smoke can reach... and from that I could already tell what kind of attack would hit me, so avoiding it was easy as well.


All corroborate that Sasuke knew where to go in the air.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The official translation and others have Sasuke state he avoided it there because he saw *where Deidara was flying*.
> 
> What does that imply to you?



Link me to this please? Because every translation I have seen says roughly the same thing, and it makes sense if you use common sense, why would noticing deidara be integral to his avoidance of c4 in any capacity other than knowing to avoid it at all if he can see the mist? If he can see the mist, avoiding it becomes the next step, but perhaps you have an "official" translation which completely changes not only context but sasukes ability to see the mist?

I await it.



this translation? Which translation do you speak of.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Link me to this please? Because every translation I have seen says roughly the same thing, and it makes sense if you use common sense, why would noticing deidara be integral to his avoidance of c4 in any capacity other than knowing to avoid it at all if he can see the mist? If he can see the mist, avoiding it becomes the next step, but perhaps you have an "official" translation which completely changes not only context but sasukes ability to see the mist?
> 
> I await it.



I edited my post to include them.

Daschysta, note the phrasing used. How did Sasuke avoid it? He saw the mist, yes, but how else? He saw where Deidara was flying out of range.

From that, could he see the horizontal limits? No, he saw the vertical limits. He says in several of them he saw where Deidara was flying in the air above the cloud. Because of that, he knew where to go to avoid the bombs.

Would that tell him where the cloud was spreading? Or where to fly to avoid the cloud?


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I edited my post to include them.
> 
> Daschysta, note the phrasing used. How did Sasuke avoid it? He saw the mist, yes, but how else? He saw where Deidara was flying out of range.
> 
> ...



Itachi can also notice that deidara is flying out of the range of the mist, this would indicate to itachi that the mist is dangerous, being unable to fly itachi would attempt to run out of the mist's range, we have seen the mist, it is not noticably longer than it is tall, we also have no evidence that sasuke moves faster than itachi when flying, therefore one can reason that itachi moving horizontally can likely clear the mist, as sasuke moving vertically was able to do so "easily".

I hope that clears it up a bit.

EDIT-- those translations don't really change much, they just mean that sasuke knew where exactly the cloud ended, itachi or anyone else that sees the mist will just be hauling ass trying to get out of the mists range, which does not seem particularly difficult seeing as the explosion is not that wide, and sasuke could get out of it's vertical range easily, I believe itachi would be able to escape it horizontally in a similar way, why does knowing exactly where the jutsu end have any bearing on ones ability to escape it.

Perception of the mist is the key, from there is a matter of getting out of range, If sasuke could do it so easily while flying (no indication it is particularly fast) then I honestly believe that itachi could avoid it on the ground by running. he is a speed demon himself.

Also if sasuke could percieve that deidara was out of the range of c4 then why can itachi not percieve that something else is out of the range of it? Itachi should be able to see ends of c4 (unless he is quite blind which is possible)


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Itachi can also notice that deidara is flying out of the range of the mist, this would indicate to itachi that the mist is dangerous, being unable to fly itachi would attempt to run out of the mist's range, we have seen the mist, it is not noticably longer than it is tall, we also have no evidence that sasuke moves faster than itachi when flying, therefore one can reason that itachi moving horizontally can likely clear the mist, as sasuke moving vertically was able to do so "easily".
> 
> I hope that clears it up a bit.




Daschysta, there's a difference. Foremost, the cloud is stated to spread with the wind.  It stays static vertically. Itachi, however, cannot see the horizontal limits. Sasuke escaped via flying...just seeing Deidara above the spreading cloud is something Itachi cannot act on, because that doesn't tell him anything.

This is also not covering this: Can Deidara not use bombs to box the unprotected Itachi in? C4 spreads very fast and would have overtaken Sasuke.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Daschysta, there's a difference. Foremost, the cloud is stated to spread with the wind.  It stays static vertically. Itachi, however, cannot see the horizontal limits. Sasuke escaped via flying...just seeing Deidara above the spreading cloud is something Itachi cannot act on, because that doesn't tell him anything.
> 
> This is also not covering this: Can Deidara not use bombs to box the unprotected Itachi in? C4 spreads very fast and would have overtaken Sasuke.



C4 spreads with the wind, that includes updrafts, wind does not move just horizontally, wind typically does not move that fast, any shinobi can outrun that. Even if itachi could not see the vertical limits, his first instinct would be to attempt to outrun the mist, if you believe he can, as I do, He can survive it. If you believe he cannot, as you do, he cannot survive it.

Come now though, itachi can act on it. What itachi will get from deidara staying out of the range of the mist is the nature of the jutsu, just as sasuke did, from there he will attempt to run out of the mist horizontally, and he will certainly not breathe it in. C4 does disperse outwards, but how fast? Faster than itachi? I don't believe so, though since we have no evidence one way or the other. It is possible that deidara could manage to box in itachi I suppose, but it would be difficult and it depends on whethere you have faith in itachi's ability to dodge most of deidara's bombs. I thin khe can, as sasuke did.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> C4 spreads with the wind, that includes updrafts, wind does not move just horizontally, wind typically does not move that fast, any shinobi can outrun that. Even if itachi could not see the vertical limits, his first instinct would be to attempt to outrun the mist, if you believe he can, as I do, He can survive it. If you believe he cannot, as you do, he cannot survive it.


It spreads horizontally. The cloud remained where it was vertically. This is in the manga. If he tries outrunning it, why will it not overtake him?



> Come now though, itachi can act on it. What itachi will get from deidara staying out of the range of the mist is the nature of the jutsu, just as sasuke did, from there he will attempt to run out of the mist horizontally, and he will certainly not breathe it in. C4 does disperse outwards, but how fast? Faster than itachi? I don't believe so, though since we have no evidence one way or the other. It is possible that deidara could manage to box in itachi I suppose, but it would be difficult and it depends on whethere you have faith in itachi's ability to dodge most of deidara's bombs. I thin khe can, as sasuke did.



Itachi doesn't have what Sasuke did? And Sasuke dodged them when Deidara was only testing him. In his CS2 form, a faster bomb hit Sasuke. 
It can disperse faster than Sasuke, that's for sure, Itachi doesn't know not to rbeathe and Deidara will launch enormous explosions at an unfocused, distracted Itachi trying to run. If he just throws one in front of him to make him dodge back or knock him back, it's over.

You're giving Deidara too little credit. He's not an idiot who sits still and Itachi isn't flawless


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, Kirin partially did.
> You can tell because Itachi is burned, coughing up blood and missing a layer of clothing.



How the hell does lightning "partially" strike you? You're either fucked or you're not. I'm so sick of baseless assumptions and thoughtless fanfic. If natural lightning actually made it through Susano'o - much more a gigantic bolt of lightning that leveled a mountain - Itachi wouldn't be burned and missing his cloak. He'd be dead. 

You seem to forget that Itachi and Sasuke were   That explains the burns. If Itachi was actually hit by lightning, he would be dead or unconscious - regardless if he was hit by a 1 inch bolt of lightning or completely engulfed. Also of note: your cloak doesn't disintegrate by being hit by lightning unless it's a direct hit. If you think that lightning powerful enough to disintegrate clothing made it through Susano'o, you're basically saying that Itachi can tank a bolt of lightning on his deathbed. It's likely that the cloak was blown away by the wind that Kirin or the thunderstorm likely produced. Why was Itachi bleeding from his mouth and lying down? Maybe because he was using Susano'o and on his deathbed due to a flesh-eating disease? Maybe because he was exhausted?

Seriously, just stop with this bullshit. Kirin would have killed Itachi if it partially struck Itachi. Susano'o stops Kirin: therefore it is airtight.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> How the hell does lightning "partially" strike you? You're either fucked or you're not. I'm so sick of baseless assumptions and thoughtless fanfic. If natural lightning actually made it through Susano'o - much more a gigantic bolt of lightning that leveled a mountain - Itachi wouldn't be burned and missing his cloak. He'd be dead.


Well, some of the force made it through. Hence Itachi's injuries and lack of cloak



> You seem to forget that Itachi and Sasuke were  That explains the burns.


Yeah, now explain how they spread over his entire body


> If Itachi was actually hit by lightning, he would be dead or unconscious - regardless if he was hit by a 1 inch bolt of lightning or completely engulfed. Also of note: your cloak doesn't disintegrate by being hit by lightning. Sorry for the confusion. It's likely that it was blown away by the wind that Kirin or the thunderstorm likely produced. Why was Itachi bleeding from his mouth? Maybe because he was using Susano'o and on his deathbed due to a flesh-eating disease?


'blown away from the wind? In Susanoo? Where would it go, there's a solid barrier. The cloak is cloak, Itachi is burned, coughing up blood BEFORE he gets up, implying he's injured as Zetsu doesn't comment on it being a side effect from anything and Itachi is face down, stunned.

Seriously, just stop with this bullshit. Kirin would have killed Itachi if it partially struck Itachi. Susano'o stops Kirin: therefore it is airtight.[/QUOTE]


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Well, some of the force made it through. Hence Itachi's injuries and lack of cloak



Explain how "some" of the lightning makes it through and doesn't kill Itachi. 




> Yeah, now explain how they spread over his entire body



He was nearly directly hit by Sasuke's fire attacks numerous times and was dodging to save his life. Maybe you should take a closer look at the battle before throwing around ignorant statements.



> 'blown away from the wind? In Susanoo?



Don't be coy. Itachi either let Susano'o down before Sasuke noticed he was alive, or Susano'o was disintegrated by the lightning. 




> Itachi... coughing up blood BEFORE he gets up, implying he's injured as Zetsu doesn't comment on it being a side effect from anything and Itachi is face down, stunned.



At that part in the chapter we don't know why he's bleeding. Zetsu doesn't know why either. The only thing he says later is that Itachi did NOT die from chakra exhaustion. What we find out later is that Itachi was dying of a disease - thus the bleeding. His bleeding was not from Kirin. Besides, electrocution doesn't cause you to bleed from the mouth. And yes, Itachi was minutes away from death. He's lying face-down because he's fucking dying.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Explain how "some" of the lightning makes it through and doesn't kill Itachi.


Explain how lightning can be formed into a shape of a dragon and guided down by the same note




> He was nearly directly hit by Sasuke's fire attacks numerous times and was dodging to save his life. Maybe you should take a closer look at the battle before throwing around ignorant statements.


We saw him after that. Want to compare:
 We see the burns from his arm here.

You can see more injures and burns covering his body.



> Don't be coy. Itachi either let Susano'o down before Sasuke noticed he was alive, or Susano'o was disintegrated by the lightning.


Given he was lying flat on his face and had trouble standing afterwards, Susanoo didn't seem to last given it had to reform.
If Susanoo was disintegrated, then Itachi obviously sustained damage





> At that part in the chapter we don't know why he's bleeding. Zetsu doesn't know why either. The only thing he says later is that Itachi did NOT die from chakra exhaustion. What we find out later is that Itachi was dying of a disease - thus the bleeding. His bleeding was not from Kirin. Besides, electrocution doesn't cause you to bleed from the mouth. And yes, Itachi was minutes away from death. He's lying face-down because he's fucking dying.


Zetsu only takes NOTE later. Point in fact, Zetsu didn't figure him being slow to rise while vomiting blood was much to comment from.
And when did he say Itachi didn't die from chakra exhaustion?

And being slammed into the ground really, really hard like that could kinda cause you from bleeding from the mouth.

He's dying sure...he's also been tkaing medicine and he's taking punishment in a fight. 

Susanoo exacerbated things, yeah, but he was injured by Kirin


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Explain how lightning can be formed into a shape of a dragon and guided down by the same note



Obviously this is an manga. Shit like that happens. But to say that the very mechanics of lightning have changed is a stretch. If enough lightning made it through Susano'o to completely disintegrate Itachi's cloak, his undergarments would be at least partially gone, and Itachi would be in critical condition/dead. If lightning strong enough to destroy clothing hits your cloak, lightning will travel through it and hit you. So now deathbed Itachi can tank lightning powerful enough to disintegrate clothing - but his undergarments are relatively unscathed? lolwut





> We saw him after that. Want to compare:
> We see the burns from his arm here.
> 
> You can see more injures and burns covering his body.



You see black marks covering both arms and some black marks on his lower legs. This can be burns or dirt. I suggest it's mostly dirt, since it's raining on a mountain and they're practically wallowing in mud.




> Given he was lying flat on his face and had trouble standing afterwards, Susanoo didn't seem to last given it had to reform.



Or he manually shut it down to preserve his quickly waning life.




> If Susanoo was disintegrated, then Itachi obviously sustained damage



No. Do you know how fast lightning is? By the time Susano'o disintegrated (instantly) the lightning already hit it and was gone (instantly). See: lightning in real life.






> Zetsu only takes NOTE later. Point in fact, Zetsu didn't figure him being slow to rise while vomiting blood was much to comment from.



He was in shock that he was alive, and didn't know what was going on. Of course he's not going to comment from ignorance. He just showed surprise and a WTF?! expression. 



> And when did he say Itachi didn't die from chakra exhaustion?





You can interpret this however you want. Maybe he was talking about a side effect from MS, or maybe he was talking about chakra exhaustion. You decide.



> And being slammed into the ground really, really hard like that could kinda cause you from bleeding from the mouth.



So now he was slammed into the ground by lightning? Are you aware of the mass of lightning? Mind telling me how electric current now has the ability to slam people around?





> Susanoo exacerbated things, yeah, but he was injured by Kirin



Please explain how someone can tank lightning.


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## daschysta (May 20, 2010)

well jinnobi, people, ordinary people, have survived after being struck by lightning, just putting it out there.


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

daschysta said:


> well jinnobi, people, ordinary people, have survived after being struck by lightning, just putting it out there.



I suppose they were on the verge of death by cancer and they got up and started fighting right?


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Obviously this is an manga. Shit like that happens. But to say that the very mechanics of lightning have changed is a stretch. If enough lightning made it through Susano'o to completely disintegrate Itachi's cloak, his undergarments would be at least partially gone, and Itachi would be in critical condition/dead. If lightning strong enough to destroy clothing hits your cloak, lightning will travel through it and hit you. So now deathbed Itachi can tank lightning powerful enough to disintegrate clothing - but his undergarments are relatively unscathed? lolwut


You can't just accept one change and then decide it couldn't possible have happened another way. Itachi cloak is gone as  well as he's burned and injured. Kirin partially hit. Susanoo protected him. He says without it, it would have obliterated him





> You see black marks covering both arms and some black marks on his lower legs. This can be burns or dirt. I suggest it's mostly dirt, since it's raining on a mountain and they're practically wallowing in mud.


He's also sweating heavily and it's not going anywhere. It matches the burns on his arms, too





> Or he manually shut it down to preserve his quickly waning life.


A few more seconds wouldn't have made a difference. He still would';ve gotten Orochimaru





> No. Do you know how fast lightning is? By the time Susano'o disintegrated (instantly) the lightning already hit it and was gone (instantly). See: lightning in real life.


and if it just burst through partially?







> He was in shock that he was alive, and didn't know what was going on. Of course he's not going to comment from ignorance. He just showed surprise and a WTF?! expression.


Despite commenting "Hey, Itachi just coughed up blood!" a few minutes later? Zetsu commented a LOT



> You can interpret this however you want. Maybe he was talking about a side effect from MS, or maybe he was talking about chakra exhaustion. You decide.


That's not talking about Itachi's DEATH. It's talking abouthis fight performance





> So now he was slammed into the ground by lightning? Are you aware of the mass of lightning? Mind telling me how electric current now has the ability to slam people around?


How about the force of the blow?






> Please explain how someone can tank lightning.


If they have a magic shield to partially take the force for you?


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> You can't just accept one change and then decide it couldn't possible have happened another way. Itachi cloak is gone as  well as he's burned and injured. Kirin partially hit. Susanoo protected him. He says without it, it would have obliterated him



Yes, I can most certainly say that lightning can be controlled BUT that it functions the same as in the "real world." Has anything suggested that this Kirin isn't using the same lightning as you would see produced by a storm in the summer? And if so, that means the lightning that "leaked" or "forced its way" through Susano'o would be lethal.






> He's also sweating heavily and it's not going anywhere. It matches the burns on his arms, too



It's a black and white manga page. Dirt and burns are drawn similarly.






> A few more seconds wouldn't have made a difference. He still would';ve gotten Orochimaru



No, they really would make a difference.








> and if it just burst through partially?



He would be unconscious and in critical condition, or dead.








> Despite commenting "Hey, Itachi just coughed up blood!" a few minutes later? Zetsu commented a LOT



When the shock wore off and he understood Susano'o more. He refrained from commenting then because there were more important things happening.








> How about the force of the blow?



Lightning my friend.







> If they have a magic shield to partially take the force for you?



This question shows that you're assuming the lightning "partially" went through, yet you can't explain how a "partial" lightning bolt doesn't electrocute Itachi AND how it magically disintegrates his cloak but doesn't do anything to his undergarments that were TOUCHING HIS CLOAK.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Yes, I can most certainly say that lightning can be controlled BUT that it functions the same as in the "real world." Has anything suggested that this Kirin isn't using the same lightning as you would see produced by a storm in the summer? And if so, that means the lightning that "leaked" or "forced its way" through Susano'o would be lethal.


Look at how it's shaped and guided. That makes it different. 
Quite obviously, some of it got through. And, uh, no, lightning strikes aren't always lethal





> It's a black and white manga page. Dirt and burns are drawn similarly.


And stay there when sweat is pouring down Itachi's face?







> No, they really would make a difference.


Evidence









> He would be unconscious and in critical condition, or dead.


Evidence









> When the shock wore off and he understood Susano'o more. He refrained from commenting then because there were more important things happening.


And he never commented on earlier. Disadvantaging your point









> Lightning my friend.


He had a tank for him







> This question shows that you're assuming the lightning "partially" went through, yet you can't explain how a "partial" lightning bolt doesn't electrocute Itachi AND how it magically disintegrates his cloak but doesn't do anything to his undergarments that were TOUCHING HIS CLOAK.



Susanoo explains that


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Look at how it's shaped and guided. That makes it different.



Explain how shaping lightning takes the potency away - especially when the tech uses no chakra.



> Quite obviously, some of it got through.



No, that's your assumption that I've proven wrong. If you disagree, try forming a cohesive argument instead of spouting nonsense.




> And, uh, no, lightning strikes aren't always lethal



Show me one documented case in which a (terminally ill no less) person was stuck by lighting, then a few seconds later stood up and started talking.






> And stay there when sweat is pouring down Itachi's face?



See: legs, arms, clothing.






> Evidence



Susano'o drains life force. Itachi is dying. More life force drained = faster you die. It's very simple for someone willing to see it.










> Evidence



Do you need everything explained to you like a child? Wikipedia lightning if you must.










> And he never commented on earlier. Disadvantaging your point



No, and I've already explained why.










> He had a tank for him



Yes, one that is logically airtight - therefore immune to C4.









> Susanoo explains that



No it does not. 

I refuse to respond to anything less than a logical, thought-out, clear argument from you. One word demands for "evidence" I ALREADY GAVE YOU will not be honored from this point on. If you can not comply, I will consider my argument as victorious, and those who read us can judge for themselves.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2010)

Please god tell me the argument isn't that Itachi physically tanked Kirin.


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## Ejenku (May 20, 2010)

I see Itachi winning this with Karasu bunshins/Katons and Genjutsu fooling Deidara long enough to hit him with MS given Deidara is right outside his assumed range like against Sasuke. Itachi can escape all of Deidara's attacks as Sasuke had no trouble until C0 was used. The only time Deidara hit Sasuke was when the mines were planted otherwise everything was easily dodged by Sasuke.\

I only time I see Itachi losing against Deidara are in these out of character scenario's where Deidara is 100 ft in the air for no reason. Deidara ic stays right outside of his opponents assumed range or flies high up when someone else can fly as high as he can.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 20, 2010)

Enjenku, have you forgotten that Deidara is _immune_ to Sharingan Genjutsu? And wrong, Sasuke was hit-in CS2 form, _when Deidara stopped playing around._


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## Jinnobi (May 20, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Enjenku, have you forgotten that Deidara is _immune_ to Sharingan Genjutsu? And wrong, Sasuke was hit-in CS2 form, _when Deidara stopped playing around._



He's not immune to what he doesn't realize he's in. Additionally, he's not immune to space/time altering genjutsu like Tsukiyomi (at least Itachi's version).

Deidara was never playing around with Sasuke.


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## Lightysnake (May 20, 2010)

His eye was trained to see through it automatically. He's immune to at least the basic Sharingan Genjutsu, get over it.

And Sasuke himself says Deidara was just testing him with the first C2 salvos


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## Nikushimi (May 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except with Itachi, he'd be using it right off. IE: not freaking out. Never mind that Itachi would probably attempt an escape otherwise and still be breathing...



Of course he would attempt to escape. Then he would see that it doesn't explode, and notice the chakra cloud approaching him. Then he would activate Susano'o to protect himself from it. Sasuke's conclusion was to avoid it, so Itachi's logically would be as well.



> Or option three: Try to run.



If he runs, he's either going to run outside the affected area, or if he can't do that, he's going to try to prevent himself from coming into contact with it. A la Susano'o.



> Option four, test it with a bunshin, see nothing immediately happens.



Why would he let his guard down simply because of the lack of any immediately-noticeable effects? It could be poison gas for all he knows. There's no way he would just take it for granted and breathe it in because his clone was able to.



> Listening to this argument, it wouldn't be shocking if some people just thought he'd sprout wings to fly out



The fact that you conflate something that absurd with my perfectly logical assertion shows how terribly you underrate Itachi's intelligence.

Like I said, the tier 5 rating isn't just for show.



> Sasuke even thought it was a dud with the crowd of chakra until he saw Deidara's expression.
> Unl;ess the same exact circumstances happen, that's no issue.



Once Sasuke saw the cloud, he knew he had to avoid it, and that's exactly what he did. Itachi would do the same. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?



> And given Deidara has full knowledge...he can even just use a small C4



How will that help? It means the area affected will probably be much smaller, which means avoiding it may be easy.



> Evidence that he had C3 when he was 9



What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Deidara stated he invented C4 to kill Itachi. That suggests that any work preceeding the invention of C4 (meaning C1 through C3) was insufficient for that task, and deemed so by Deidara himself. The only way to circumvent this problem would be if it turned out Deidara invented C4 BEFORE he invented C3, but there is no proof of that, and no conceivable reason why it would be the case. So, it's a given that C3 is ineffectual; Susano'o would protect Itachi from it anyway.



> So, Danzo's chakra can bust through, but normal air so normal air and microscopic bombs won't?
> This argument makes sense how?



Danzou's Fuuton didn't get through.



> Or we just don't think he's invincible like you do.



You underestimate him. I don't think he's invincible, but I acknowledge his abilities as they should be acknowledged. Kishimoto obviously wanted to portray Itachi as someone supremely powerful, so why you choose to do everything you can to see otherwise is baffling.



> Sasuke perceived a threat only due to Deidara's expression and got clear because he could fly.



Itachi can activate Susano'o faster than Sasuke can fly. Much faster.



> With full knowledge Deidara knows the toll Susanoo'd take. So he merely stays out of range.



Then Itachi deactivates Susano'o once the cloud of microbombs has settled to the ground or blown away. Or hell, maybe he could even use the Yata no Kagami like a giant fan...and spread them up to where Deidara is.

"Go ahead and do it now, fucker. Kill us both. Or maybe just yourself, because I haven't breathed that stuff in yet. "



> And maybe, just maybe, Itachi'd lack the ability to react and doesn't put up Susanoo at the drop of a hat



Nor does Deidara just use C4 at the drop of a hat. By the time it gets around to that, the fight will have gone on for quite a while, and Itachi will recognize a trump card when he sees one. He will use Susano'o as necessary. Nothing more, nothing less.



> Go on: prove it's airtiht then if you're asserting it



I'm merely saying that I think it's airtight, because Danzou's Fuuton couldn't get through it. By the way, tearing a hole in something by force is different than being able to pass through a porous material. I can't prove it, but neither can you. However, I believe there is more to suggest that it is airtight, than there is to suggest that it isn't.

Here's a funny question, or series thereof: Where on Susano'o are there any openings? From what do you infer that there are porous holes in the chakra that composes it? Why would we have any reason to believe that it isn't air-tight, since it is shown fully encasing its user?



> Prove it's airtight.
> Go on. Blocking physical blades made of chakra isn;t airright



Fuuton is chakra with the properties of wind. Wind is just an air current. If Fuuton can't simply blow through it, but instead must tear through it, then it seems to be airtight.



> Physical chakra, next.



Air is physical. Air is just a mix of gases like oxygen and nitrogen. Gas is simply a state of matter. Physical.



> It's relevant as she could damage Susanoo itself. Something smaller and finer couldn't go through how?



Dude, she damaged like some kind of weird, gimped version of the ribcage of Sasuke's Susano'o, when Sasuke was exhausted. It's not like her acid mist dissolved the full thing.

As for why Deidara's C4 can't get through, that's because it's not acidic. They're just particles until Deidara detonates them, but if he does that, then Itachi will have nothing to breath in even if they somehow totally disintegrate his Susano'o. Then Itachi will just reform Susano'o and Deidara will get pissed and blow himself up in a rage.



> *Super-Big Ball Rasengan (超大玉螺旋丸, Chouoodama Rasengan)
> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Jiraiya
> 
> ...



Obvious exaggeration is obvious. You're taking things too literally again.



> Your point being? He'd never seen them before



Why does that matter? He evidently knew what they were and what they could do. So he did have knowledge on them regardless of whether or not he had ever seen them personally.



> The databook says so as well. When it also had information on Itachi and his supposed invincibility.
> Huh.



It's contemporary. The stuff about Pain concerns when the statement was made regarding him and the stuff about Itachi concerns when it was relevant for him as well.

Besides, it's a different kind of invincibility; Pain is invincible to anyone alive at that time who doesn't know his abilities or secret because he's just that fucking strong, while Itachi is protected by an impenetrable shield for a few minutes. Pain's invincibility is not durability.



> Did you miss that point completely?



Probably, but it probably wasn't relevant.



> We have one other instance of things stated to be incorporeal or etheral/spiritual: Tayuya's warriors. They were specifically stated to be constructs made of chakra. The Mirror?
> *Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.*
> Change its own attributes, endowed with all nature alterations. Heavily implying it's chakra based.
> And:
> ...



Tayuya's warriors are Oni/demons. They are part of a Jutsu and thus made of chakra. The Yata no Kagami is a spiritual item. It possesses attributes that can counteract chakra elements, but it possesses attributes that can counteract physical and spiritual attacks as well. The items are never stated to be a part of Susano'o; it says that Susano'o "boasts them." I could boast a gun or a stick, but that does not mean it is a part of me. For that matter, the composition of a part is not necessarily the same as the composition of the rest of the sum. It's difficult to come up with a real-life analog, since chakra/spiritual energy don't exist in the real world (in any observable or provable form, at least). But think of a lit candle. There's the wax, the wick, and the flame itself. All compositionally very different from eachother.

The simplest way to put it is, Susano'o is a heterogeneous blend of chakra and pure spiritual energy.


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## Nikushimi (May 21, 2010)

> One godly mythical figure in the past doesn't raise your ranking all that much, plenty Shonen have them.
> Most of those things were also kind of not in the series.



Bleach doesn't have such a character, and I seriously don't think One Piece's Gol D. Roger has anything on moon-making.

Like it or not, Rikudou Sennin is not a bottom-tier entity in Shounen. He's a part of the Narutoverse, so you can't rightly deny the Narutoverse credit for possessing a guy like him. Even the Kyuubi keeps the Narutoverse from being entirely low-tier. Heck, Rokubi Naruto is easily a challenging contender for any of the mid-tier Espada, and probably a decent threat to the higher ones as well, with the exception of Barragan. Even though it's only the very top of the Narutoverse food chain that can compete at such levels, they still have to be recognized.

But this is all completely irrelevant.



> And again, you kind of continuously ignore that Susanoo isn't the only thing given those props



Just the only thing to live up to them, basically. At least in Itachi's case, since he has the Yata no Kagami and the Totsuka no Tsurugi to wave around, which is why he was called "completely invincible."



> Powerful? Yes. Unbeatable god who can't lose? Nope.



I didn't say he couldn't lose. I said he's invincible as long as Susano'o is up. Anyone who can hold off his Susano'o or avoid it long enough can beat him, even though the people who can do that so far are probably just Madara, the Rikudou Sennin, Minato, Raikage, and maybe Pain.

In contrast, you seem to think that everyone and their grandmother can shatter Susano'o by farting. I give the technique a little more credit than that, considering how much it has been hyped, what it has done, and what has been said about it (Itachi's in particular).



> He made Pain stronger for one



Possible, but unconfirmed. Just your opinion currently.



> Kamui is an offensive attack. If he warps away all Susanoo except for the mirror, it's failed in its purpose.
> So there exists an attack that can bypass it. That it cannot just nullify?



It's just displaced; being impenetrable and being immovable are not the same thing. It's not actually penetrating the mirror, so the mirror is not failing in its purpose. It remains not penetrated, just picked off and carried away to a new location. But it remains intact.



> Hardly. Yata's Mirror nullifies attacks. Pain's technique is a defensive one.



Strawman. The Yata no Kagami nullifies anything physical, spiritual, or chakra-based that is hurled against it. A shield, though defensive in purpose, can be used offensively. In the same manner, Pain's Fuujutsu Kyuuin ability can be used offensively, like when he grabs Naruto and sucks chakra from his body. Don't try to waste my time dancing around semantics.



> In fact, if you want to argue "But Kishimoto said..." let's look at Preta's:
> *Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Pain
> 
> ...



Susano'o would be absorbed. Too bad the Totsuka no Tsurugi and the Yata no Kagami are items, not techniques; so they won't be.



> The databook strongly implies YM and the Totsuka are made of chakra. The only other time in the manga something has been described as 'spiritual' was specifically because they were made of chakra alone.  Susanoo itself is called materialized chakra. The items are stated to be part of the technique, nothing about Itachi's alone.



Tayuya's Oni were a Ninjutsu. The spiritual items wielded by Itachi are items, which the databook entry says his Susano'o "boasts" or "wields." On top of that, the items Sasuke's Susano'o possesses are not the same. Since Orochimaru had been looking for the Totsuka no Tsurugi all his life and was shocked that Itachi had it in his possession, implying that Orochimaru or anyone else would be capable of possessing it, and since Zetsu knew about both items even though he had never seen Itachi use Susano'o before, *and referred to them specifically as items...* It all points toward the obvious fact that they are tools held by Susano'o, not pieces of it. Reinforcing this concept is the fact that they are called "spiritual", "supernatural", and "incorporeal." Which chakra is not.



> What you are making are contradictions to your own argument. I specifically noted such a contradiction here. You should not get angry when this is pointed out, quite frankly. Especially when your argument focuses on merely taking some things you want to at face value and ignoring the others I have provided that are equally as valid.



They're not equally valid. They've either been proven wrong or they've been given in contexts and under pretenses that are obviously not literal. This is not the case with Susano'o. Zetsu directly stated that it made Itachi completely invincible thanks to the spiritual items it wielded. An obvious hyperbole like "Chou Oodama Rasengan swallows all" is not tantamount to a statement with literal intent like "Combined with the Totsuka no Tsurugi for offense, he's completely invincible." You're purposely trying to conflate Zetsu's assertion with what is essentially no different than "I'm so hungry I could eat a horse", which isn't *at all* what Zetsu was trying to convey. He stated the properties of the sword. He stated the properties of the shield. He concluded that Itachi was invulnerable as long as he had Susano'o.



Lightysnake said:


> Danzo specifically notes a gap at the base.
> 
> "An opening, now's my chance!"



That's just dandy, but you can clearly see that there is still muscle tissue and the spine in the way. Danzou only peeled off the skin.

Perhaps what Danzou meant was that he had created a weak spot in Susano'o.


----------



## Nikushimi (May 21, 2010)

> You've still provided no evidence to this.



No evidence? Read the damn chapter. When he reactivates it, that's what we see.



> I have shown evidence that a full Susanoo can be instantly summoned.



No you haven't, just like you haven't yet established the length of the "instant" in question. If that instant is a second, or a tenth of a second, what does that mean Itachi could've accomplished in a thousandth of a second? It's suggested when Itachi activates it again that all he had time for was the ribcage. The rest is shown layering on top of that afterwards.



> And I note the words "fully activate."  We have seen Sasuke fully activate his Susanoo immediately several times, both before and after completion.



I would demand that you provide scans, but I know you can't, because I know you are wrong. Sasuke has done no such thing; the only time he ever completed Susano'o, he had the imperfect version already activated, and the hood had to form over it; it didn't just appear.



> So, earlier on you were praising Itachi's intelligence. Now you're saying he was careless enough to risk his life to Kirin? Again, you're espousing different beliefs



It had nothing to do with being careless. You or I couldn't form a coherent thought in a millisecond, and it's amazing even Itachi was able to. All I'm saying is, he can't fully form Susano'o in that time.



> And I maintain; Kirin.



Kirin never pierced the Yata no Kagami. It was certainly never shown doing so, and there is nothing to suggest that it did or even could.



> I have shown a full Susanoo being instantly summoned.



No you haven't, just as you haven't defined the length of that instant.



> We know Itachi can summon his instantly.



The ribcage portion, yes. Asserting he can do more contradicts what we actually saw him do, and what we've seen Sasuke do.



> We know from the lack of one around him, the damage Itachi had sustained and the proven need to reform, if it was destroyed it'd have to reform.



Either the ribcage was destroyed, or Itachi deactivated it after the strike. There's absolutely nothing that demands that his full Susano'o had to have been used.



> And tanking a stab from a chokuto doesn't strike me as an upper tier feat.



You mean a Kusanagi, one Sasuke insinuated was better than Orochimaru's.



> He 'survived' it because he had two other hearts to die first. He was left utterly paralyzed and dying after it.



We don't know that he was dying. Kakashi finished him off.

Point is, he was alive after getting hit with it. That's still insane.



> And Chou Oodama Rasengan is stated to be able to hollow out a mountain. As well as swallow or devour a person



So what? A mountain has no standard definition, and Chou Oodama Rasengan is bigger than a person. These things could be legitimate assertions.



> And why is it when the databook uses absolute language any other time, it's hyperbole, but when it comes to Susanoo...



It comes down to basic reading comprehension. If you can't tell an obvious hyperbole from a statement of superlative capability on your own, then no amount of me explaining it to you will make any difference.

Zetsu's observation, for one thing, was in-character, and not a poetic diatribe penned for the databooks.



> Show me anything saying the Totsuka can pierce 'anything.' Your extrapolations are insufficient evidence



I am merely stating what all of that suggests to me personally and presenting it for your consideration, not making an assertion. Learn to tell the difference.



> Yeah, and nobody ever denied Itachi with Susanoo is a force to be reckoned with.
> That doesn't mean he's unstoppable.



He *is* unstoppable as long as the Jutsu is in effect. The only way to beat him is to outlast him.



> Quite the opposite. Especially to someone with knowledge. Especially when he can only maintain Susanoo for so long. Especially when his boss can just trap him in a crushing moon, or absorb it, or even disperse it.



Passing the Yata no Kagami through the core of Chibaku Tensei...or piercing the core and sealing it...are plausible counters. Chibaku Tensei itself has an undetermined time limit as well when used by Pain, since it takes so much effort to maintain. Absorption would only work on Susano'o, but the Yata no Kagami would be able to nullify any absorption chakra that came in contact with it. Don't know what you mean by "disperse it."



> Name me one other person who was a direct witness to the fight to contest it.
> When have we seen a complete Susanoo again to even make such claims?



We haven't, but why is that important? Are you suggesting that since it hasn't been corroborated by anyone other than Zetsu, it cannot be treated as factual? That would mean you think Zetsu isn't reliable. What basis could you possibly have for thinking that?



> It's a direct comparison is what it is. Again, you're allowing for hyperbole in one place and not another



There's your number-one mistake. Zetsu's statement is not hyperbole, it's a literal assertion. Amaterasu being compared to the sun is an obvious hyperbole. I'm not cherry picking, I'm using common sense to distinguish between what is a statement of fact and what is an exaggeration.

It's no different than being able to tell the difference between "he's lightning-fast" and "he can travel at the same speed as a bolt of lightning."


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

We're going around in circles here. It's clear you won't be convinced of anything that might reflect poorly on Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (May 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> We're going around in circles here. It's clear you won't be convinced of anything that might reflect poorly on Itachi.



I just go by what the manga depicts, which is that Itachi won't lose to someone of Deidara's level. You're the one making up weaknesses in Itachi's arsenal that have no foundation in the manga. You do it all the time. I don't know what you've got against Itachi, but it's clear to myself and pretty much everyone else that he's meant to be stronger than you're giving him credit for.


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## grinninggrizzly (May 21, 2010)

@lightysnake and SSM12
Again, deidara's C2 missiles had nothing on ridiculous speed. Quit trying to force in that point over and over.

Sasuke's feet are injured and his movements restricted regardless of whether he can see the mines(unless to you hop, step and jump sounds like a credible way to dodge missiles). In the time it takes the missile to hit him, he takes out a scroll, summons two shuriken, rigs them, then throws them; he also does a chidori and runs it through his sword b4 throwing that too... and you actually believe the missiles were too fast! You seem to be forgetting the lil part where he was setting up deidara.



And here's your almighty amazing missile getting dodged with a simple leap on one foot. 
But, itachi won't have to worry about mines or injured feet.

Also, where the hell does it say that deidara was messing around with sasuke while using C2. The only time he did that was while testing his movements with c1


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

grinninggrizzly said:


> @lightysnake and SSM12
> Again, deidara's C2 missiles had nothing on ridiculous speed. Quit trying to force in that point over and over.
> 
> Sasuke's feet are injured and his movements restricted regardless of whether he can see the mines(unless to you hop, step and jump sounds like a credible way to dodge missiles). In the time it takes the missile to hit him, he takes out a scroll, summons two shuriken, rigs them, then throws them; he also does a chidori and runs it through his sword b4 throwing that too... and you actually believe the missiles were too fast! You seem to be forgetting the lil part where he was setting up deidara.


Is there any indication when he used the shurikens? No? Okay then, especially as they aren't seen when the explosion actively happens. He also threw the sword after the chodir. 
And 'setting up Deidara?' Wow, great plan to take a giant missile you might not survive for a plan that may or may not work. He was hit legitimately, get over it;
And where were Sasuke's feet injured? He dodged the mine via flight.



> And here's your almighty amazing missile getting dodged with a simple leap on one foot.
> But, itachi won't have to worry about mines or injured feet.


Itachi has Raiton and can fly now?
I mean, sure, Sasuke's only leaping off the pole vault of his sword, with chakra in his legs to clear the mine but...hey, when did Itachi get a raiton charged sword?




> Also, where the hell does it say that deidara was messing around with sasuke while using C2. The only time he did that was while testing his movements with c1



Sasuke: He was only testing to see if he could hit me and now he's out of my range!

Still no counter to C4, btw


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## Vergil642 (May 21, 2010)

> And because it's out of range. The cloud keeps spreading



And Sasuke, Itachi too for that matter, can keep running. Or go against the wind, something a cloud of microbombs can't do without propulsion. Which they don't have.

Also, what's out of range?



> Deidara tagged CS2 Sasuke with a bomb after Sasuke realised he was caught in the minefield and _couldn't move._ Hitting a stationary target with a guided missile from a few metres doesn't make you accurate or the attack a high speed one.


Sasuke already saw the mines and could fly. He was still forced to block by a faster faster when he was dodging them before. [/quote]

Then it's clear Sasuke can't fly as fast as he can run. He's shown he can move fast enough on the ground to evade C2 in base. If he can't run to dodge it and didn't fly, it indicates he isn't able to fly to evade it. Similarly it's very possible Sasuke was betting his wing would protect him as that appeared part of his plan in his later explanation. You remember right? The one where he told Deidara how _he used that moment to test his Raiton could defuse Deidara's bombs._ Speculation of course, but regardless, Sasuke on the ground can evade Deidara's C2 bombs. Itachi's faster, so there's no reason he shouldn't be able to do so as well.



> What happens in the genjutsu world is up to Itachi, has no bearing at all on the real world.
> So Sasuke DIDN'T go CS2 to fight Itachi CQC is that what you're saying? So you have no proof Itachi is faster, do you?



That's my point. In the real world the only Taijutsu we saw between Sasuke and Itachi was absurdly minimal, in no way enough to indicate Sasuke can keep up with him in Taijutsu.

And funnily enough, Sasuke failed to use CS2 to fight in Taijutsu, only using it to buff his jutsu's power. This would indicate a lack of faith in it or preference for using it to buff his jutsu attack power. Possibly both. Regardless, he's never shown he can outspeed Itachi with CS2, meaning we can't assume he can.



> The anime has him laugh. The manga has him grinning with a 'kuku, he's fast...'
> Sasuke states he was being tested there
> 
> 
> ...



Please show me the other translations then. Toying would imply Deidara's playing with Sasuke, not taking him seriously. Sasuke's use of the word testing implies Deidara is taking him seriously and ensuring his upcoming plan will work.

Big difference. For example, I could say Sasuke was toying with Deidara throughout the fight as from the start he had good reason to believe he could defuse the bombs with his Raiton. That would be misleading however as he struggled because he wasn't arrogant or rash enough to go ahead with his plan without confirming it, just as Deidara wasn't arrogant or rash enough to rush in without getting more info about Sasuke's capabilities.



> Yeah, he needs a clear shot with THESE. Never mind, he's shown the ability to keep track of people like that, the possible mine field, Itachi being hit with these explosions...



If Sasuke and Itachi can evade those attacks in open ground, trees are just going to make the matter even worse for Deidara.

And again, minefield is highly unlikely at it requires Itachi to do nothing and let Deidara do it.



> Oh, so Itachi suddenly has knowledge of C4? Huh, didn't see that in the fight parameters.
> Amaterasu is restricted. And also short range. And Itachi, blinded by Susanoo, gets a clear hit on someone far away?
> And Deidara is,m unlike Orochimaru, ready, paying attention and has knowledge. He'd probably just use a bunshin there and hide in the bird like he did with Sasuke
> 
> ...


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## Lightysnake (May 21, 2010)

Yeah, given Vergil keeps literally ignoring anything he doesn't like and continuing his points while ignoring fight parameters and direct databook and manga evidence and going on about "But Sasuke did it!" when he's been explained how it doesn't matter, I think I'm done with him.
Anyone who associates himself with Nikushimi's arguments in a favorable comparison really should've tipped me off.

It's been done, your argument has failed and there's not a single point there that isn't a bad recitation of a point that's already been debunked.


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## Nikushimi (May 22, 2010)

C4's not getting through Susano'o. Deidara is going to get pissed and blow himself up. Itachi's going to survive that too. He wins.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Sounds like you.



Are you going to make an argument or just make snide comments?


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## daschysta (May 22, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I suppose they were on the verge of death by cancer and they got up and started fighting right?



Itachi is not exactly a regular person is he? I'm quite sure that itachi on the verge of death by cancer can do lots of things that you and I cannot.


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## grinninggrizzly (May 22, 2010)

> Lightysnake said:
> 
> 
> > Is there any indication when he used the shurikens? No? Okay then, especially as they aren't seen when the explosion actively happens. He also threw the sword after the chodir.
> ...


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## daschysta (May 22, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, given Vergil keeps literally ignoring anything he doesn't like and continuing his points while ignoring fight parameters and direct databook and manga evidence and going on about "But Sasuke did it!" when he's been explained how it doesn't matter, I think I'm done with him.
> Anyone who associates himself with Nikushimi's arguments in a favorable comparison really should've tipped me off.
> 
> It's been done, your argument has failed and there's not a single point there that isn't a bad recitation of a point that's already been debunked.



What is vergil ignoring?

FACT 1. Sasuke evaded c4 because he could see it with sharingan, once he saw that deidara flying outside of the range of the "mist" he percieved it as dangerous.

We agree on this I think.

However the bullshit in your argument then materializes.

Your argument is that sasuke could ONLY avoid c4 by flying upwards to deidara, implying baselessly that sasuke can fly more quickly than he can run, which is not grounded in any fact.

You then laughably attempted to state that itachi would not be able to see where the mist ended horizontally, despite the fact that sasuke could recognize deidara as being outside of the mist. If sasuke could see deidara, and recognize him as hovering outside of the mist, what is to stop itachi from realizing some other landmark is outside of the mist horizontally? Itachi, who is faster than sasuke would be able to run to the edge of the mist and avoid the jutsu. Sasuke avoided it "easily" itachi will also avoid it "easily" as he moves much faster than sasuke can fly in an upward direction.

Deidara created an ultimate jutsu, that unfortunately was rendered rather ineffective against the sharingan the second the sharingan was able to see chakra.

Worst case scenario susanoo is activated, rendering it further useless, but I don't believe he would have to.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

grinninggrizzly said:


> > .
> >
> > What? You think he was running around with shuriken in the air all that time(like a kite), all the while dodging deidara's missiles? Deidara must be utterly blind or a hopeless idiot then!
> 
> ...


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

daschysta said:


> What is vergil ignoring?
> 
> FACT 1. Sasuke evaded c4 because he could see it with sharingan, once he saw that deidara flying outside of the range of the "mist" he percieved it as dangerous.
> 
> ...


Do you just parrot the arguments of the people arguing for the guy with the Sharingan constantly?
How'd Sasuke recognize it? Where he was flying. Sasuke said nothing about a horizontal barrier. Just vertical.



> If sasuke could see deidara, and recognize him as hovering outside of the mist, what is to stop itachi from realizing some other landmark is outside of the mist horizontally? Itachi, who is faster than sasuke would be able to run to the edge of the mist and avoid the jutsu. Sasuke avoided it "easily" itachi will also avoid it "easily" as he moves much faster than sasuke can fly in an upward direction.


Yeah, and Sasuke can fly and Sasuke was in CS2, which should be comparable to Itachi in speed. Never mind on ground, the cloud would've overtaken Sasuke. And Deidara is going to keep Itachi boxed in.



> Deidara created an ultimate jutsu, that unfortunately was rendered rather ineffective against the sharingan the second the sharingan was able to see chakra.


Shame even if you see the chakra, if you don't have raiton to diffuse it and wings to fly out of it, you'd still die



> Worst case scenario susanoo is activated, rendering it further useless, but I don't believe he would have to.



Of course you don't. He has a Sharingan, how can he lose? 
Never mind they don't know not to, y'know, breathe.

So Itachi sees it...he turns to try to run. Either:
A. The cloud overtakes him, given how fast it spreads as it would've overtaken Sasuke without flight
B. Deidara sees him about to escape, resorts to bombs to keep him trapped in. He only needs one to delay him for...a second? Less?

Or he just activates C4 closer to Itachi than he did Sasuke.


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## daschysta (May 22, 2010)

I only argue for the sharingan when it is superior to the competition. And parrot? as in copy? I was in this debate before niku or vergil joined in I believe.

You are still relying on faulty logic, I don't know how to spell it out to you more simply

Sasuke did not recognize the mist because of deidara, he could see the mist. He flat out says that he can see the mist.

Do you disagree with this?

If not let us move on.

Sasuke see deidara above the mist.

Do you disagree with this?

If not let us move on.

If you agree with the above statement then you are acknowledging that sasuke can see through the mist, and recognize what is engulfed in the c4 and what is not.

You should realize that now

If you can recognize what is in the mist and what is not in the mist then it shouldn't matter if it is vertical or horizontal, logically itachi will be able to see through the mist to the other side.

As shown in the manga the c4 cloud is roughly as wide as it is tall, meaning that if itachi can move as quickly as sasuke did while flying upwards, he can move outside of the to the side.

since itachi is better than sasuke at genjutsu he will be able to cast genjutsu on deidara the same way sasuke did, buying him at least enough time to escape as "easily" as sasuke did.

This genjutsu shuold at least theoretically enable itachi to avoid deidara "boxing him in" (i'm not sure how you propose this is done) long enough for him to escape.

Any assumptions about the rate of c4 spreading is all your conjecture, without manga backing. You even went as far as to claim the wind spread it, and then with what I assume to be a straight face acted like it's dispersal after the initial explosion moves fast enough to keep itachi within it's limits?



This page shows the dome that c4 creates, sasuke was able to easily fly from the middle to the top before deidara could prevent it. Itachi just moves from the middle or wherever to the closest edge. "easily" I add. The distance to the closest edge would probably be closer than the middle as itachi would be running away from the giant deidara, but even if he was at the epicenter of the explosion the distance to the closest edge would be no further than the distance sasuke had to fly to reach deidara.

Lastly sasuke did not NEED raiton to diffuse c4 the first time it was used, he flat out avoided it apparently easily, nor did he NEED wings. Itachi lacking the method to reach deidara himself on his bird would not have to worry about the second c4, which is when sasuke actually did need chidori to survive the attack.


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## grinninggrizzly (May 22, 2010)

> I mean, sure, Sasuke's only leaping off the pole vault of his sword, with chakra in his legs to clear the mine but...hey, when did Itachi get a raiton charged sword?
> *Wow, he got clear of the explosion that way? by avoiding the blast and propelling himself above?
> Itachi should totally be able to replicate this with a Raiton charged Chokuto*





Swallow this. He's already got away from this superfast missile without any apparent advanced movement. the second jumping part you're trying to sell me was to gather momentum to reach deidara, not dodge the explosion, after evidently already moving cleanly out of its way. Thus, your supposed speedy missile is not that speedy at all. The bolded part is nonsense, i saw no such blast.
Again, why the hell would Itachi be trapped in a minefield in the first place? Deidara getting on the ground at any time to do any such thing will get him killed.




Read both pages b4 creating your own interpretations: about deidara making sure his bombs hit(nothing about toying with him), that was sasuke's response to deidara's explanation as to how he was restricting his movements with mines and launching missiles from above. That simply means deidara couldn't hit sasuke without inhibiting his movements and sasuke was acknowledging that. Deidara himself mentioned nothing about the speed, just the size.



> Oh, Uchiha fankids these days!
> Sasuke can fly. C4 spreads and was quite a bit faster than Sasuke could run judging by the Genjutsu.
> How did Sasuke escape? Flying. What can Deidara see through and plan accordingly for? C4. He'll surely sit back and not throw a Missile in front of a distracted Itachi.
> 
> ...



As dachysta already posted, flying upwards or running across, there'd be no difference especially considering how fast sasuke escaped. And what's with the windy day argument, all i saw was a dome which cleared out rather fast. And, itachi uses layered genjutsu, there's nothing stopping him from launching one on deidara while making his speedy escape.
What does the genjutsu have to do with sasuke running? The genjutsu was just that, even deidara didn't buy it. 
You're also making out deidara to be some mad genius far above itachi, when he couldn't even figure out sasuke's lil tricks until he was given a lengthy, detailed explanation at the very end.



> Or he threw them previously when he, y'know, dodged the mine by flying up



Why would he do that when he could still fly? Also, the hypothesis leading to the set up was created AFTER realising about the mines, not off the bat. You're fishing.



Deidara praising his missiles and stating his confidence in them, only for sasuke to go on and dodge. Precisely why he needed mines.


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## justarandomguy (May 22, 2010)

the idea that deidara will win is pure fandom. deidara has to get on the ground to lay any mines, and if he does that itachi will rape him. deidaras left eye can't beat tsukuyomi, he has no counter for amaterasu, and susano will rip through clay creations, and besides itachi>sasuke at that time>deidara


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## Vergil642 (May 22, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Do you just parrot the arguments of the people arguing for the guy with the Sharingan constantly?
> How'd Sasuke recognize it? Where he was flying. Sasuke said nothing about a horizontal barrier. Just vertical.



Just so I'm aware, are you saying that it's impossible to outrun C4's cloud? That without flight you simply can't escape unless your Rikudo Sennin or don't breathe or something along those lines?



> Yeah, and Sasuke can fly and Sasuke was in CS2, which should be comparable to Itachi in speed. Never mind on ground, the cloud would've overtaken Sasuke. And Deidara is going to keep Itachi boxed in.



Sasuke flying hasn't ever shown amazing speed however. He's only ever shown great speed when on the ground (and yes, CS2 Sasuke should be at least comperable, I'm leaning towards slightly faster than Itachi on the ground).

Again though, how's Deidara keeping Itachi boxed in? We know Base Sasuke can evade C2. Deidara "just testing him" with C2 doesn't mean Deidara wasn't trying to hit him; his test can and did reveal that Sasuke can evade C2. If you're talking about mines, please read on as I will be addressing that later in the post.



> Shame even if you see the chakra, if you don't have raiton to diffuse it and wings to fly out of it, you'd still die



So again, just to confirm, everyone without flight dies if Deidara uses C4?



> Of course you don't. He has a Sharingan, how can he lose?
> Never mind they don't know not to, y'know, breathe.
> 
> So Itachi sees it...he turns to try to run. Either:
> ...



Please, just to refresh my clearly horrid memory, where did it say C4 would have overtaken Sasuke without him flying?

Oh and again, these bombs that will box Itachi in, what were they? I mean, I'm clearly not wise enough or clever enough to see what you're getting at, please enlighten me.

Speaking of the mines, we know Itachi can see them with chakra. We know he can't defuse them with Raiton, as he lacks Raiton.

Nobody's yet pointed out these are explosives, and they explode when touched. Kunai, or if you really want, Kunai with explosive tags should logically be capable of setting them off prematurely, before Itachi stands on one. Being able to see them and having epic skills throwing those things, why can't Itachi simply prematurely detonate them if he decides he'll humour Deidara and stand still while he/his clay bunshin sets the mines up?


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## korykal (May 22, 2010)

.. 2 questions : 
1) why do people say C4 will work with susanoo on ? Mizukage's mist was melting sasuke's susanoo before geting to sasuke , that's good proof that susanoo is air-tight , if mist didn't get throw susanoo , mini-bombs will not either 
2) why do people say C3 will destroy susanoo ? more than 1 maibe but one C3 can be blocked by the shield


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## Jinnobi (May 22, 2010)

korykal said:


> .. 2 questions :
> 1) why do people say C4 will work with susanoo on ? Mizukage's mist was melting sasuke's susanoo before geting to sasuke , that's good proof that susanoo is air-tight , if mist didn't get throw susanoo , mini-bombs will not either
> 2) why do people say C3 will destroy susanoo ? more than 1 maibe but one C3 can be blocked by the shield



Because certain people hate anything related to Sasuke, Itachi, the Sharigan, or Uchiha in general. They tend to make poor arguments and assume they are right.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

daschysta said:


> I only argue for the sharingan when it is superior to the competition. And parrot? as in copy? I was in this debate before niku or vergil joined in I believe.



When it's superior? Yeah, and judging from every argument you seem to make, that's every single situation ever



> You are still relying on faulty logic, I don't know how to spell it out to you more simply



Could it be you're wrong?



> Sasuke did not recognize the mist because of deidara, he could see the mist. He flat out says that he can see the mist.


And he says he avoided it, as I provided from several translations I posted, by seeing deidara flying in the safe area above it. Simple



> Do you disagree with this?
> 
> If not let us move on.


We already covered this



> Sasuke see deidara above the mist.
> 
> Do you disagree with this?


First sensible thing you've said



> If not let us move on.
> 
> If you agree with the above statement then you are acknowledging that sasuke can see through the mist, and recognize what is engulfed in the c4 and what is not.


And it spreads, your point being?



> You should realize that now
> 
> If you can recognize what is in the mist and what is not in the mist then it shouldn't matter if it is vertical or horizontal, logically itachi will be able to see through the mist to the other side.


Mr. "I can barely see in front of me" will be able to see that far?



> As shown in the manga the c4 cloud is roughly as wide as it is tall, meaning that if itachi can move as quickly as sasuke did while flying upwards, he can move outside of the to the side.


And it spreads, what part about that don't you get? We saw from the Genjutsu that Sasuke running was overtaken



> since itachi is better than sasuke at genjutsu he will be able to cast genjutsu on deidara the same way sasuke did, buying him at least enough time to escape as "easily" as sasuke did.


Except Deidara was never under the genjutsu. He commented he'd have to thank Itachi and acted like he was to fool Sasuke.



> This genjutsu shuold at least theoretically enable itachi to avoid deidara "boxing him in" (i'm not sure how you propose this is done) long enough for him to escape.


How? His eye sees through it. He trained his eye against Itachi's specifically



> Any assumptions about the rate of c4 spreading is all your conjecture, without manga backing. You even went as far as to claim the wind spread it, and then with what I assume to be a straight face acted like it's dispersal after the initial explosion moves fast enough to keep itachi within it's limits?


Hey, remmeber how Sasuke's illusion was running and overtaken?
That wouldn't work if the cloud stayed static. It'd be literally the worst tactic. Either it spreads out to an alarming rate or it continues spreading as they're, y'know, micro bombs

Here's Tobi saying they spread out. The databook says they spread out to an enormous or wide range. 



> This page shows the dome that c4 creates, sasuke was able to easily fly from the middle to the top before deidara could prevent it.


He wasn't trying, given he hid in the bird to trap Sasuke again


> Itachi just moves from the middle or wherever to the closest edge. "easily" I add.


So he can fly and run out of the cloud?



> The distance to the closest edge would probably be closer than the middle as itachi would be running away from the giant deidara, but even if he was at the epicenter of the explosion the distance to the closest edge would be no further than the distance sasuke had to fly to reach deidara.


And the cloud would catch him, so what? The distance is spreads to is stated in databook to be a large one. You have zero proof Itachi would be able to get clear in time without taking a breath



> Lastly sasuke did not NEED raiton to diffuse c4 the first time it was used, he flat out avoided it apparently easily, nor did he NEED wings. Itachi lacking the method to reach deidara himself on his bird would not have to worry about the second c4, which is when sasuke actually did need chidori to survive the attack.


Nor did he NEED wings? Lovely how you just ignore what you don't like. Sasuke easily avoided it why? He saw where Deidara was flying above the cloud and avoided it that way.

So, we depend on Itachi beiung somehow able to run away from the spreading cloud, which you have zero proof of. deidara doing nothing, which you also have no proof of...




grinninggrizzly said:


> Swallow this. He's already got away from this superfast missile without any apparent advanced movement. the second jumping part you're trying to sell me was to gather momentum to reach deidara, not dodge the explosion, after evidently already moving cleanly out of its way. Thus, your supposed speedy missile is not that speedy at all. The bolded part is nonsense, i saw no such blast.
> Again, why the hell would Itachi be trapped in a minefield in the first place? Deidara getting on the ground at any time to do any such thing will get him killed.


We have visual proof of him being unable to dodge one missile, fact.
He was able to, after that, set something up where he could jump off the chokuto. Meaning...that didn't come down to speed, but instead getting ABOVE the explosion.
And you can see an explosion right there



> Read both pages b4 creating your own interpretations: about deidara making sure his bombs hit(nothing about toying with him),


And Sasuke says o0therwise. But I can't expect honesty from Sasuke fans


> that was sasuke's response to deidara's explanation as to how he was restricting his movements with mines and launching missiles from above. That simply means deidara couldn't hit sasuke without inhibiting his movements and sasuke was acknowledging that. Deidara himself mentioned nothing about the speed, just the size.


Sauske said Deidara was merely making sure he could hit him and now figured out his range. 
And when Deidara uses larger and visually faster explosions, Sasuke fails to dodge. Funny




> As dachysta already posted, flying upwards or running across, there'd be no difference especially considering how fast sasuke escaped. And what's with the windy day argument, all i saw was a dome which cleared out rather fast. And, itachi uses layered genjutsu, there's nothing stopping him from launching one on deidara while making his speedy escape.



The cloud spreads horizontally, not vertically. Flying leaves you out of danger. If Sasuke tried running, the illusion he tried showed he would be overtaken.
Itachi can use a Genjutsu there. Problem? He'd kind of see through it. Like he did with Sasuke. And then attack a fleeing Itachi. If he can even get clear
[Quote[
What does the genjutsu have to do with sasuke running? The genjutsu was just that, even deidara didn't buy it. [/Quote]
He didn't buy it because his eye SEES THROUGH IT.
The illusion showed the cloud would've overtaken Sasuke, plain and simple. 



> You're also making out deidara to be some mad genius far above itachi, when he couldn't even figure out sasuke's lil tricks until he was given a lengthy, detailed explanation at the very end.


Oh, so Itachi has Raiton. Which is the only reason Sasuke won.


> Why would he do that when he could still fly? Also, the hypothesis leading to the set up was created AFTER realising about the mines, not off the bat. You're fishing.


Given Sasuke saw the mines, heard about them being planted and could see them...
Seems the one reaching is you



> Deidara praising his missiles and stating his confidence in them, only for sasuke to go on and dodge. Precisely why he needed mines.



And Sasuke says that was one of the ones that was merely making sure if Deidara could tag him.

Cite the whole thing or not at all, thanks


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## Thunder (May 22, 2010)

Itachi isn't gonna winning here unless he has Raiton. Forget C4, he has zero defense against Deidara's basic jutsus. His only hope for victory is _Tsukuyomi_ or _Susano'o_. With no knowledge on Deidara, he won't be starting out with MS. He is more likely to start out with Sharingan Genjutsu (which Deidara is immune too). Once Deidara takes to the skies, _Tsukuyomi _is out of the question, so _Susano'o_ is left. Deidara can simply avoid it until Itachi is forced to stop using it.


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## Jinnobi (May 22, 2010)

Except Susano'o can be deactivated when not needed, making the strain minimal.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Deidara has way more chakra and stamina. He can keep up the keep away or set a trap with a bunshin or C1 even.

He can keep that up way longer than Itachi has stamina or chakra. Or vision


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## Thunder (May 22, 2010)

Even if it can be deactivated, constantly activating it and then deactivating it will take its toll. Its just delaying the inevitable. Like I said, _Susano'o_ is Itachi's only hope for victory when Deidara is airborne. The chances are, Itachi would be using _Susano'o_ more then not. Deidara can just outlast him here.


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## korykal (May 22, 2010)

why can't itachi start susanoo , become invulnerable to C4 that way ( it is air-tight as mizukages mist had to melt it to pass ) , use the shield to stop the 1-2 C3 ( I assuming deidara dose not have 100 of them or he would just have taken over the world ) , stop a part of the C1-C2 with fire jutsu and exploding clones , dodge some other C1-C2 whit sharingan and use the body of susanoo to tank the C2 he can't dodge ( one or two of them that itachi can't dodge or stop will not break susanoo ) then use his speed to get close to deidara , junp in range and use amateratsu on deidara and his dragon ( one amateratsu covers some area as we have seen )


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Because of the toll it takes to him, Itachi doesn't start with Susanoo...and using speed doesn't help when a man is flying


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## korykal (May 22, 2010)

well .... I'm not an extrimist , 
- yes the toll will be big , but we weren't told if this is sick itachi or healthy one , and even if he were sick itachi he could do it if he went directly for the kill and would not take his time , even if at the end he would be blind he would at least be alive
- speed helps to get under the flying guy and jump and amateratsu him
- buuuut I do agree what I described is not IC for no-knowlege itachi , maybe a blood lusted itachi ...


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## Jinnobi (May 22, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Even if it can be deactivated, constantly activating it and then deactivating it will take its toll. Its just delaying the inevitable. Like I said, _Susano'o_ is Itachi's only hope for victory when Deidara is airborne. The chances are, Itachi would be using _Susano'o_ more then not. Deidara can just outlast him here.



Those bombs take chakra. Susano'o does not take chakra, it uses life force. If you remember, Itachi was out of chakra when he used Susano'o.

Besides, with Itachi's speed he won't be forced to use Susano'o often.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Susanoo is materialized *CHAKRA* and Sasuke can't maintain it when he gets low on Chakra. There's a chakra component involved

Itachi's speed is incredibly overstated anyways


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## Vergil642 (May 22, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Itachi isn't gonna winning here unless he has Raiton. Forget C4, he has zero defense against Deidara's basic jutsus.



Except, y'know, physically moving away and avoiding them, as Sasuke did at the start of his bout with Deidara.



> His only hope for victory is _Tsukuyomi_ or _Susano'o_.



He also has Amaterasu.



> With no knowledge on Deidara, he won't be starting out with MS. He is more likely to start out with Sharingan Genjutsu (which Deidara is immune too).



Deidara's proven himself capable of seeing through the Sharingan Genjutsu of someone inferior at using it than Itachi. This isn't exactly great proof.



> Once Deidara takes to the skies, _Tsukuyomi _is out of the question



Unless Deidara catches a glimpse of Itachi's eyes. In which case he's liable to get defeated by it.



> so _Susano'o_ is left. Deidara can simply avoid it until Itachi is forced to stop using it.



Deidara's as fast as Orochimaru. Orochimaru couldn't react to Susanoo's attack. Unless he's already well out of Susanoo's extensive range, he's not going to be able to do much to protect himself from it.



Lightysnake said:


> Susanoo is materialized *CHAKRA* and Sasuke can't maintain it when he gets low on Chakra. There's a chakra component involved
> 
> Itachi's speed is incredibly overstated anyways



Said speed happens to be greater than Sasuke's. Which is sufficient to dodge C2, which is Deidara's best sustainable type of attack in this battle (note sustainable, I realise there are superior attacks available to him).


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Tsukuyomi is short range. Deidara will be out of that range. And he has full knowledge to boot.

And hey, going to keep ignoring that Sasuke said Deidara was just testing him with the first missile salvos? And Sasuke needed to go cS2?


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## Vergil642 (May 22, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Tsukuyomi is short range. Deidara will be out of that range. And he has full knowledge to boot.
> 
> And hey, going to keep ignoring that Sasuke said Deidara was just testing him with the first missile salvos? And Sasuke needed to go cS2?



Sasuke showed Sharingan Genjutsu requires eye contact and that range means little as long as that prerequisite is met. There's no reason someone vastly superior to him in the art can't match the feat of Genjutsu'ing someone at considerable range.

Deidara tested him and couldn't hit him with C2. Sasuke was testing him throughout the battle by diffusing a number of bombs with his Raiton, but that doesn't mean Deidara still wasn't a difficult foe to beat.

And are you going to keep ignoring CS2 was activated to help avoid injury from stepping on a mine? And to fly up to Deidara to get within range to strike him of course.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

And? Deidara'll see through his Genjutsu anyways.

And again, Sasuke says Deidara was merely testing his speed with the first salvos. He expresses no anger Sasuke is dodging. The only ones Sasuke 'tested' as the one mine. He had only an idea as of just the C1.

And in the same situation, Itachi will be injured by the mine as he can't FLY.


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## Immortal (May 22, 2010)

Itachi wouldn't even need Susano'o, and even if he was somehow driven to use it, Deidara would have nothing to do.


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## Lightysnake (May 22, 2010)

Like stay out of its range which, as defined by the OP he knows?

Tell us how Itachi wins beyond "He's Itachi," kindly


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## Thunder (May 23, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Those bombs take chakra. Susano'o does not take chakra, it uses life force. If you remember, Itachi was out of chakra when he used Susano'o.
> 
> Besides, with Itachi's speed he won't be forced to use Susano'o often.



That's even worse. Getting your life force drained is more of a problem for Itachi then getting his chakra drained, considering he is sick. 

I was referring to C4. Itachi's only counter to that is _Susano'o_. And sure, Itachi can dodge some explosions, but he can't attack Deidara while he is airborne without _Susano'o_ which is the point. Between protecting himself from C4 and trying to attack Deidara while he is airborne means Itachi will be using _Susano'o_ a lot. You can't win a match by just dodging.


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## grinninggrizzly (May 23, 2010)

> Meaning...that didn't come down to speed, but instead getting ABOVE the explosion.
> And you can see an explosion right there



It's 100% canon that sasuke leaped from the katana to get to deidara. You got some nerve conjuring your own explanation. You asked me to look at the link for the explosion that sasuke was apparently trying to escape... the fuckin missile hadn't even reached the ground yet, at which time sasuke was comfortably perched on his sword clearly outside of the missiles trajectory. What part of he dodged that particular missile don't you understand. You also seem to be forgetting that deidara's bombs couldn't damage sasuke unless he took a direct hit.
But regardless, even your wrong explanation has sasuke cleanly dodging the missile by jumping up and away after having been wounded. Your super speed argument is still null.



> Given Sasuke saw the mines, heard about them being planted and could see them...
> Seems the one reaching is you



I assume you're still referring to the shuriken, in which case you're confirming what i said. The first time he stepped on one, he had no idea what the hell was going on. Deidara then went ahead to give him a neat expanation, from which he decided to confirm his initial hypothesis. IOW, the chidori sword gamble and depending on the result, the shuriken lure.
He couldn't have thrown the shuriken into the air after unknowingly stepping on a mine because that would mean he did it off the bat without knowing what the hell was going on.



> And Sasuke says that was one of the ones that was merely making sure if Deidara could tag him.
> 
> Cite the whole thing or not at all, thanks



Again read both pages. Neither deidara nor sasuke says anything about the initial bombs being 'for toying with him'. Here's sasuke's thought process directly from both pages;
1. "Guided bombs from above and land mines in the ground... so he was just making sure he could hit me with his bombs". IOW, no matter what sasuke does one or the other of deidara's bombs would hit him.
2. Deidara's words back to back: boasts about his formidable combination then "we've got you surrounded, one wrong step will blast you into the stratosphere... do you think you can pull off another escape." Deidara's confidence in his next missile has nothing to do with it's 'awesome speed', it's confidence in his formidable combination.
For the same reason, when sasuke jumped out of the way of the last missile, he exuded the same confidence assuming, nay, SAYING sasuke would land on a mine nonetheless.
3. Deidara boasts his formidable combi and how it's gonna restrict sasuke's movements while bombarding him from above etcetera then sasuke thinks, so he's making sure his bombs hit.

And i can't believe you're using a genjutsu to prove that sasuke would've been overtaken by the cloud, genjutsu is just making people see things taht ain't even real. In that case, i'll confidently say, that Itachi is sooooooooooooo much faster than sasuke he was utterly stomping him regardless of the CS, include speedblitz too. In which case deidara doesn't stand a chance of hitting him whatsoever.

Anyway, like i said, when deidara does decide to touch down and plant mines, Itachi will rape him.


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Yeah,you think that because sasuke used a genjutsu, in which he was hit by c4, that sasuke would be hit by it? You cannot see how sasuke would think it fortuitous to be believed dead, that it would not be a boon to his suprise attack?

Just like when sasuke used genjutsu on danzou he didn't make him think his eye was opened as opposed to making it appear closed.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Yes, Daschysta. Deidara, unlike Danzo, has a Genjutsu immune eye. That's not really a comparable situation.



grinninggrizzly said:


> It's 100% canon that sasuke leaped from the katana to get to deidara. You got some nerve conjuring your own explanation. You asked me to look at the link for the explosion that sasuke was apparently trying to escape... the fuckin missile hadn't even reached the ground yet, at which time sasuke was comfortably perched on his sword clearly outside of the missiles trajectory. What part of he dodged that particular missile don't you understand. You also seem to be forgetting that deidara's bombs couldn't damage sasuke unless he took a direct hit.
> But regardless, even your wrong explanation has sasuke cleanly dodging the missile by jumping up and away after having been wounded. Your super speed argument is still null.


What part of 'he dodged it via jumping' don't you get? He used the sword for leverage and then attacked the dragon, throwing Deidara off.
Hell, when did the missile even explode? If it did, that might've killed Sasuke given he just dodged slightly sideway and Deidara was GUIDING it.




> I assume you're still referring to the shuriken, in which case you're confirming what i said. The first time he stepped on one, he had no idea what the hell was going on. Deidara then went ahead to give him a neat expanation, from which he decided to confirm his initial hypothesis. IOW, the chidori sword gamble and depending on the result, the shuriken lure.


In other words you still have no idea when he set it up, thanks.



> He couldn't have thrown the shuriken into the air after unknowingly stepping on a mine because that would mean he did it off the bat without knowing what the hell was going on.


Because it's totally OOC for Sasuke to do something just in case




> Again read both pages. Neither deidara nor sasuke says anything about the initial bombs being 'for toying with him'. Here's sasuke's thought process directly from both pages;
> 1. "Guided bombs from above and land mines in the ground... so he was just making sure he could hit me with his bombs". IOW, no matter what sasuke does one or the other of deidara's bombs would hit him.


Despite him specifically referring to the guided missiles, noticably smaller and weaker than the ones Deidara was using.
Deidara's lack of irritation at all only seems to confirm things, sorry.



> 2. Deidara's words back to back: boasts about his formidable combination then "we've got you surrounded, one wrong step will blast you into the stratosphere... do you think you can pull off another escape." Deidara's confidence in his next missile has nothing to do with it's 'awesome speed', it's confidence in his formidable combination.


and yes Sasuke cna fly and knows where the mines are via his Sharingan.
Notice your explanations keep ignoring basic character knowledge?



> For the same reason, when sasuke jumped out of the way of the last missile, he exuded the same confidence assuming, nay, SAYING sasuke would land on a mine nonetheless.


And he 


> 3. Deidara boasts his formidable combi and how it's gonna restrict sasuke's movements while bombarding him from above etcetera then sasuke thinks, so he's making sure his bombs hit.
> 
> And i can't believe you're using a genjutsu to prove that sasuke would've been overtaken by the cloud, genjutsu is just making people see things taht ain't even real.


Which is why showing a Sasuke disintegrating when not even IN THE CLOUD is about the stupidest idea ever when Deidara knows where his own bombs are given  they're his chakra



> In that case, i'll confidently say, that Itachi is sooooooooooooo much faster than sasuke he was utterly stomping him regardless of the CS, include speedblitz too. In which case deidara doesn't stand a chance of hitting him whatsoever.


Gai couldn't speedblitz an armless, injured Deidara with his whole team and Sasuke kept up with Itachi without even going Cs2. Kakashi did fine against him PTS. 
Plus Itachi has no way of reaching him in the air, sorry.
Funny how one refers to Itachi 'stomping' Sasuke when most of the taijutsu was in the Tsukuyomi, too. 



> Anyway, like i said, when deidara does decide to touch down and plant mines, Itachi will rape him.


with what? Itachi isn't fast enough to speedblitz someone who could elude Team Gai simultaneously.
If Itachi tries, then he'll find out that, ICly, Deidara's used a clay bunshin.
And Itachi dies that way.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 23, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Yeah,you think that because sasuke used a genjutsu, in which he was hit by c4, that sasuke would be hit by it? You cannot see how sasuke would think it fortuitous to be believed dead, that it would not be a boon to his suprise attack?
> 
> Just like when sasuke used genjutsu on danzou he didn't make him think his eye was opened as opposed to making it appear closed.



A) Sasuke used Tsukuyomi.
B) Danzo doesn't have an eye that was trained to be immune to Genjutsu.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

At this point, the Sasuke supporters are taking ignoring what they dislike to an art form, AS


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## daschysta (May 23, 2010)

Deidara still saw the genjutsu, he was able to realize that it was not real, but he still saw it, and it still does not prove that sasuke would have been hit by C4.

Sasuke did not know deidara would not be duped by the genjutsu, sasuke created the genjutsu to make deidara think that he was killed, hence his counter attack. Therefore the genjutsu of sasuke being killed by c4 does nothing to prove that sasuke would be effected the same way had he simply tried to escape C4 instead of counter attacking deidara.

You are the one that tried to make the argument that since sasuke in genjutsu was killed by the first c4 that is what would have happened in reality if sasuke had just tried to escape c4 on the ground.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

He saw through it, is what happened. He merely realized Sasuke was trying to use a Genjutsu on him.

And again...you can't create a circumstance like that. The illusionary Sasuke had to have been overtaken by C4. Meaning it spreads out. And the databook supports that.

If the C4 wouldn't overtake Sasuke on the ground, Sasuke would know Deidara'd realize that


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake your argument of Itachi not being faster than Sasuke is flawed. Sasuke needed a B rank summoning technique(the tatoos on his wrists), to match Itachi's basic skillset. I can find the databook entry if you like, but in short the technique allows the user to access weapons much faster than they normally can. and Itachi, with heavly impaired vision, kept up just fine and managed to whip out a KB in the midst of it. He is clearly faster.

About Deidara having a genjutsu immune eye, that claim is also wrong. He doesn't have immunity of any kind, its just that the eye will help him slip out of a genjutsu _slowly_. And let me remind you that Sasuke is nowhere as skilled as Itachi in that department.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

False, the databook says otherwise and someone else provided the quite. What his eye does is see through genjutsu, period. 

And hey, who did Deidara train against in the genjutsu department? Wasn't Sasuke.

And depending on if you take their Taijutsu fight as part of the Tsukuyomi or not, in CQC, Sasuke was holding his own. And he didn't go CS2, even.


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## Vergil642 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> And? Deidara'll see through his Genjutsu anyways.
> 
> And again, Sasuke says Deidara was merely testing his speed with the first salvos. He expresses no anger Sasuke is dodging. The only ones Sasuke 'tested' as the one mine. He had only an idea as of just the C1.
> 
> And in the same situation, Itachi will be injured by the mine as he can't FLY.



See through his Genjutsu. You realise I was referring to Tsukuyomi don't you? I'm just asking so I know if you're saying he'll see through Tsukuyomi or not.

And again, please show me Sasuke being caught out by C2 and incapable of evading it when his movements aren't restricted by mines.

In the same situation, I can honestly say I don't see Itachi stepping on the mine, especially as Deidara's not going to be able to lay them without Itachi realising it. Even if he uses a Bunshin, Itachi's not going to simply focus on Deidara to the exclusion of any other threat as Sasuke did as he's both more experienced and more intelligent than Sasuke.

In fact, I'm surprised Sasuke stood on the mine. If he can see the chakra underground, he's clearly not being careful enough if he's stepping where a big thing filled with Deidara's chakra. He could be given the benefit of the doubt however as he was being bombed extensively at the time.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

I love how you keep going "When his mkovement isn't restricted" when he can:
A. Fly
B. See the mines anyways.

And Tsukuyomi, which Deidara has full knowledge of, which is short range and which he'll avoid thanks to those. 

And wow, taking opponents lightly and not paying attention wo what they set up? Perfectly IC with Itachi.


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## Vergil642 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I love how you keep going "When his mkovement isn't restricted" when he can:
> A. Fly
> B. See the mines anyways.
> 
> ...



Very clearly Sasuke's flight speed isn't sufficient to evade C2. Similarly the mines were likely bunched together (or something) enough to hinder his movement so he couldn't evade the following C2 bomb.

The fact remains that base Sasuke evaded C2 and Deidara didnt' show he could tag Sasuke without Sasuke having his movement hindered.

And Tsukuyomi, which Deidara has full knowledge of, remains a Sharingan Genjutsu. An absurdly powerful one, but nevertheless a Sharingan Genjutsu. Sasuke showed us that range isn't really an issue. Deidara's personality would mean he wouldn't necessarily avoid eye contact, indeed, he likely wouldn't because he's confident in his anti-genjutsu eye.

Also, taking opponents lightly? When did Itachi ever do that? The only possible candidate for that sort of behaviour would be the Shouten Clone, which in itself is a battle filled with problems concerning Itachi's behaviour and thus far from a reliable example of how he normally fights.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Very clearly Sasuke's flight speed isn't sufficient to evade C2. Similarly the mines were likely bunched together (or something) enough to hinder his movement so he couldn't evade the following C2 bomb.


So he couldn't fly and tag the dragon THAT way. Or just get to a non- mined spot? Right



> The fact remains that base Sasuke evaded C2 and Deidara didnt' show he could tag Sasuke without Sasuke having his movement hindered.


Except when Sasuke knew exactly where to go and could fly he could still be tagged



> And Tsukuyomi, which Deidara has full knowledge of, remains a Sharingan Genjutsu. An absurdly powerful one, but nevertheless a Sharingan Genjutsu. Sasuke showed us that range isn't really an issue. Deidara's personality would mean he wouldn't necessarily avoid eye contact, indeed, he likely wouldn't because he's confident in his anti-genjutsu eye.


Tsukuyomi is ashort range. Databook>You, get over it.
Here he has full knowledge. Meaning he'd know if his eye'd work on Tsukuyomi. Get over it.
Not all genjutsu is created equal. Some are stronger, some have long or short ranges

<I>
Also, taking opponents lightly? When did Itachi ever do that? The only possible candidate for that sort of behaviour would be the Shouten Clone, which in itself is a battle filled with problems concerning Itachi's behaviour and thus far from a reliable example of how he normally fights.[/QUOTE]
Bull. All that showed was he's not as godly as people seemed to believe. He was careless against Sasuke and if Sasuke had just used Kirin as opposed to gloating and explaining ever minisuscule detail, he'd have died thanks to that set up[. He was caught by Kakashi just fine, too.
Not really the best track record. Deidara's shown he can get a clone underground without even a Byakugan user noticing he's using substitution. Itachi's vision ain't that good.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> False, the databook says otherwise and someone else provided the quite. What his eye does is see through genjutsu, period.



I'll need to take a look @ that.
And even if what you said is true, it still doesn't make him immune, since immunity means that he doesn't get effected by it at all which isn't true.



> And hey, who did Deidara train against in the genjutsu department? Wasn't Sasuke.



He tested out against Sasuke, not Itachi.

Sasuke =/= Itachi

especially when there are significant gaps in skill.



> And depending on if you take their Taijutsu fight as part of the Tsukuyomi or not, in CQC, Sasuke was holding his own. And he didn't go CS2, even.


It isn't relevant to what I am saying. Sasuke needed additional ninjutsu to keep up with Itachi's speed which means Itachi is faster.



Lightysnake said:


> And wow, taking opponents lightly and not paying attention wo what they set up? Perfectly IC with Itachi.



Oh yeah taking his opponents lightly and being careless, that really compliments him planning 10 years ahead 

In case you've forgot, Itachi planned to get defeated by Sasuke. So are you saying that he was able to successfuly execute a staged fight against Sasuke while being careless ? That makes him all the more awesome don't you think ?


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'll need to take a look @ that.
> And even if what you said is true, it still doesn't make him immune, since immunity means that he doesn't get effected by it at all which isn't true.


His eye sees through it, period. Nothing ever showed him being affected by it




> He tested out against Sasuke, not Itachi.
> 
> Sasuke =/= Itachi
> 
> especially when there are significant gaps in skill.


And he saw through Sasuke's with ease. Bad points



> It isn't relevant to what I am saying. Sasuke needed additional ninjutsu to keep up with Itachi's speed which means Itachi is faster.


Yeah, but the gap isn't as great as people like to assume. And Sasuke wasn't even using his full speed




> Oh yeah taking his opponents lightly and being careless, that really compliments him planning 10 years ahead


Not for a FIGHT. His entire goal was 'die.' That doesn't equate to prepping to best someone



> In case you've forgot, Itachi planned to get defeated by Sasuke. So are you saying that he was able to successfuly execute a staged fight against Sasuke while being careless ? That makes him all the more awesome don't you think ?


Ummm, his other plan there was to drive Sasuke to be out of chakra to bring out and seal Orochimaru. He nearly got killed before he did that.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

itachi has a 5 speed stat in the data book, itachi is faster then sasuke, that is canon

and lighty he had to make the battle look as real as possibile he never wanted sasuke to find out he let him win.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

So? It was ALSO a stated goal to push Sasuke to his limits to draw out Orochimaru. Kakashi has a 4.5 in speed and he was keeping up with Itachi to boot. 

Itachi just avoided a direct killing blow. Doesn't mean he wasn't trying


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> So? It was ALSO a stated goal to push Sasuke to his limits to draw out Orochimaru. Kakashi has a 4.5 in speed and he was keeping up with Itachi to boot.
> 
> Itachi just avoided a direct killing blow. Doesn't mean he wasn't trying



kakashi has a sharingon and so does sasuke, and itachi prove to be faster then both of them, diedara has no sharingon keep that in mind

itachi was on his death bed, had no intention of kiling sasuke, and had no knowledge of kirin, do i need to go on? itachi wasnt trying to kill sasuke this is canon.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Kakashi PTS kept up just fine, actually. In fact, he was only trying to catch ITachi with a Bunshin.

and Deidara trained to fight the Sharingan. Not just the illusions. He says himself "I trained my eye to counter the Sharingan *especially* its genjutsu!" implying he's ready for the rest of it.

Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke? Great! Was he still trying in the fight? Yes. Did he need to push Sasuke to his lowest to get Orochimaru? Yes


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kakashi PTS kept up just fine, actually. In fact, he was only trying to catch ITachi with a Bunshin.
> 
> and Deidara trained to fight the Sharingan. Not just the illusions. He says himself "I trained my eye to counter the Sharingan *especially* its genjutsu!" implying he's ready for the rest of it.
> 
> Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke? Great! Was he still trying in the fight? Yes. Did he need to push Sasuke to his lowest to get Orochimaru? Yes



"PTS" and PTS also had PTS naruto on his side, i see you agree that itachi is faster then sasuke kool

thats just pure speculation tho lighty why would diedara train to counter sharingon in other aspects when itachi defeated him with 1 genjutsu?

lighty all itachi basicly did was counter everything sasuke threw at him, itachi didnt attempt to kill him once, and madara also stated if itachi wanted you dead you would be dead, your theory is all speculation, theres no sure way to tell how hard itachi tried against sauske so why even bring it up?


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## Vergil642 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> So he couldn't fly and tag the dragon THAT way. Or just get to a non- mined spot? Right



Clearly not, as he had a C2 bomb falling on him.



> Except when Sasuke knew exactly where to go and could fly he could still be tagged



Well obviously. Is it hard to follow what I'm saying?

Sasuke's ground movement speed>Sasuke's flight movement speed. This is what the manga indicates.



> Tsukuyomi is ashort range. Databook>You, get over it.
> Here he has full knowledge. Meaning he'd know if his eye'd work on Tsukuyomi. Get over it.
> Not all genjutsu is created equal. Some are stronger, some have long or short ranges



Amaterasu also has a 5m range. Funny that it still ignited directly on the Hachibi despite it being over 5m away. Itachi shot a Goukakyuu no Jutsu that covered a distance exceeding 5m. There are other examples of the DB's ranges being wrong. The fact the DB's information is always based on what we see in the manga also means that if the manga later shows that say, a jutsu's range can actually be beyond 5m, the DB doesn't get updated to contain this new information.

This would be why the DB still says Susanoo takes Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu active to, well, activate. Sasuke's Susanoo however seems to require Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi.

And could you please explain why it's impossible to use Tsukuyomi if someone is over 5m away? I'd like to know as you seem so well informed on the matter.



> Bull. All that showed was he's not as godly as people seemed to believe. He was careless against Sasuke and if Sasuke had just used Kirin as opposed to gloating and explaining ever minisuscule detail, he'd have died thanks to that set up[. He was caught by Kakashi just fine, too.
> Not really the best track record. Deidara's shown he can get a clone underground without even a Byakugan user noticing he's using substitution. Itachi's vision ain't that good.



Careless against Sasuke? Madara flat out stated he planned the fight in exquisite detail, to the point where he damn near choreographed every step.

Just to point out, Kakashi Vs Itachi round 2 makes no sense. Kakashi's first encounter with Itachi featured Kakashi with the exact same stats as Kakashi in his second encounter with Itachi. Yet this time he could keep up with Itachi whereas before he was being seriously pushed and incapable of counter attacking. Similarly Itachi spent all of their second encounter standing still. Strangely Itachi didn't see Kakashi's chakra underground despite Kakashi being right in front of him (underground of course). Oddly when Kakashi's KB was held in the Genjutsu and _wide open_ Itachi didn't stab it with a kunai. Funnily enough, Itachi winning that fight would actually go against his established "zomg love Konoha" personality as it would lead directly to Konohagakure being threatened even more.

I could go on and point out more inconsistencies and strange things about that fight, but I believe that should at least prod you in the right direction. But of course you'll likely close your eyes to it and simply insist that it's simply impossible that anything could be strange about someone who's secretly his foe's ally not wanting to seriously hurt them and instead wanting to put his all into beating them despite having no reason to do so. That tends to happen. It'd be a nice surprise if someone at some point actually thought about it rather than dismissed it offhand for being against their vision of what the manga should be.

And just throwing this out there, but if Byakugan ain't active Neji's awareness of his surroundings isn't necessarily any better than anyone elses. If he had it activated, then Kishi seems to have screwed up. That or Deidara's hiding abilities are the most awesome in the entire manga.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> "PTS" and PTS also had PTS naruto on his side, i see you agree that itachi is faster then sasuke kool


Yeah, not by much, though.



> thats just pure speculation tho lighty why would diedara train to counter sharingon in other aspects when itachi defeated him with 1 genjutsu?



Gee, maybe he's not a total idiot and realizes Itachi has other abilities beyond Genjutsu?


> lighty all itachi basicly did was counter everything sasuke threw at him, itachi didnt attempt to kill him once, and madara also stated if itachi wanted you dead you would be dead, your theory is all speculation, theres no sure way to tell how hard itachi tried against sauske so why even bring it up?



Because we see Itachi trying hard? Not dealing a killing blow doesn't mean eh wasn't trying and considering if not for Oral Creation Rebirth Sauske would be *DEAD*, what's the point?



Vergil642 said:


> Clearly not, as he had a C2 bomb falling on him.


My point.



> Well obviously. Is it hard to follow what I'm saying?
> 
> Sasuke's ground movement speed>Sasuke's flight movement speed. This is what the manga indicates.


Where?




> Amaterasu also has a 5m range. Funny that it still ignited directly on the Hachibi despite it being over 5m away.


Evidenc on the distance?


> Itachi shot a Goukakyuu no Jutsu that covered a distance exceeding 5m.


And where was that?



> There are other examples of the DB's ranges being wrong. The fact the DB's information is always based on what we see in the manga also means that if the manga later shows that say, a jutsu's range can actually be beyond 5m, the DB doesn't get updated to contain this new information.


Goodie. Show me Tsukuyomi working from more than five meters away. 



> This would be why the DB still says Susanoo takes Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu active to, well, activate. Sasuke's Susanoo however seems to require Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi.


Ummm, no. He has Tsukuyomi. He just has Blaze Release where he manipulates Amaterasu's flames as well. 



> And could you please explain why it's impossible to use Tsukuyomi if someone is over 5m away? I'd like to know as you seem so well informed on the matter.


Obviously it interferes. Do you have any evidence on Tsukuyomi that contradicts the databook?




> Careless against Sasuke? Madara flat out stated he planned the fight in exquisite detail, to the point where he damn near choreographed every step.


Where did he state he planned the entire fight? He didn't know of Kirin. He didn't know what Sasuke had from Orochimaru...his entire strategy was that Sasuke MIGHT have Oral Creation Rebirth



> Just to point out, Kakashi Vs Itachi round 2 makes no sense. Kakashi's first encounter with Itachi featured Kakashi with the exact same stats as Kakashi in his second encounter with Itachi.


No, they don't. His speed increased and so did his Taijutsu in databook 2



> Yet this time he could keep up with Itachi whereas before he was being seriously pushed and incapable of counter attacking. Similarly Itachi spent all of their second encounter standing still. Strangely Itachi didn't see Kakashi's chakra underground despite Kakashi being right in front of him (underground of course). Oddly when Kakashi's KB was held in the Genjutsu and _wide open_ Itachi didn't stab it with a kunai. Funnily enough, Itachi winning that fight would actually go against his established "zomg love Konoha" personality as it would lead directly to Konohagakure being threatened even more.


Sasuke didn't see Deidara in his bird despite being right in front of him. And Itachi's ahnds were busy with Kakashi there trying to hold him and Kakashi's clone broke the Genjutsu anyways.

And yeah, Itachi went against his whole "I LOVE KONOHA" thing *himself* when he ordered Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma. He was SURPRISED by Gai's entry. Kakashi kept up with *and trapped* Itachi fine.



> I could go on and point out more inconsistencies and strange things about that fight, but I believe that should at least prod you in the right direction. But of course you'll likely close your eyes to it and simply insist that it's simply impossible that anything could be strange about someone who's secretly his foe's ally not wanting to seriously hurt them and instead wanting to put his all into beating them despite having no reason to do so. That tends to happen. It'd be a nice surprise if someone at some point actually thought about it rather than dismissed it offhand for being against their vision of what the manga should be.


Pot, Kettle. When you blatantly ignore anything about the fights you don't like or that might make an Uchiha look worse? 

Could it be that Itachi's eyesight might've been bad? Or no, that seeing underground was not an ability the Sharingan had until Sasuke needed it? That Kakashi improved as seen in his second databook stats? That Itachi's hands were occupied and he himself stated his Genjutsu was worthless on Kakashi?



> And just throwing this out there, but if Byakugan ain't active Neji's awareness of his surroundings isn't necessarily any better than anyone elses. If he had it activated, then Kishi seems to have screwed up. That or Deidara's hiding abilities are the most awesome in the entire manga.


He was using the Byakugan. Kakashi didn't see it either and neither did Sasuke when Deidara used a bunshin.

Seems unlikely it was a screw up


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, not by much, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




its not about being a idiot the point is he wouldnt know what to prepare for,  all he knows was it had prominent genjutsu abilities so its understandble for him to prepare for that, how would he prepare for the reaction speed how would he even calculate all of that if he never saw it , see where im going with this?

the thing is it was all a act, so can we say for sure 100% that itachi was trying hard ? no, we have no definite way to tell. 

if your intention is to let somebody win then it goes without saying your not trying hard.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Lelouch, he says himself. He traiend against the Sharingan, mostly against its genjutsu. That means he didn't ONLY train against its Genjutsu.

And you can't say he wasn't trying hard....how can you? We have him showing effort, why should we ignore that? He wasn't just trying to let Sasuke win. He had to beat him down to get Orochimaru out...THEN die


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 23, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Lelouch, he says himself. He traiend against the Sharingan, mostly against its genjutsu. That means he didn't ONLY train against its Genjutsu.
> 
> And you can't say he wasn't trying hard....how can you? We have him showing effort, why should we ignore that? He wasn't just trying to let Sasuke win. He had to beat him down to get Orochimaru out...THEN die



 clearly diedara is not immune if he saw the c4 kill sasuke 

now he seen threw it because he saw that paticular genjutsu b4, now even if it is true and his left eye is so called able to counter the sharingon, how well do you think it will fair when diedara only saw 1 of its moves? think about it.

again there is no sure way, we dont know how much of itachi's strenght is required to push sasuke to his limit, i let ppl win all the time and i often can fool them into thinking i was trying hard.


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## Lightysnake (May 23, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> clearly diedara is not immune if he saw the c4 kill sasuke


Lelouch, that's just the genjutsu Sasuke was casting. Deidara saw through it...



> now he seen threw it because he saw that paticular genjutsu b4, now even if it is true and his left eye is so called able to counter the sharingon, how well do you think it will fair when diedara only saw 1 of its moves? think about it.


Itachi's abilities aren't what you'd call hidden. He compares Kakashi's MS to Itachi's, saying it's ability is as strong as any of Itachi's. 
Deidara obviously waited for some years, thinking new methods up and learning more



> again there is no sure way, we dont know how much of itachi's strenght is required to push sasuke to his limit, i let ppl win all the time and i often can fool them into thinking i was trying hard.



Yeah, but you don't have to force them to their limits to draw out a powerful opponent. And die


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Lelouch, that's just the genjutsu Sasuke was casting. Deidara saw through it...


 
maybe im nitpicking but its just your choice of words, immunity means uneffected, diedara can fight genjutsu but he is not immune to it, nobody is, thats like me saying itachi is immune also because he reversed kurenai's genjutsu, if he was immune he wouldnt had seen the illusion in the first place, see what i mean now?


Lightysnake said:


> Itachi's abilities aren't what you'd call hidden. He compares Kakashi's MS to Itachi's, saying it's ability is as strong as any of Itachi's.
> Deidara obviously waited for some years, thinking new methods up and learning more



yeah but since we have no proof that diedara moniterd any of itachi's fight we cant rely on this


Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, but you don't have to force them to their limits to draw out a powerful opponent. And die



yeah but due to the fact that im not trying to win we can conclude im not trying my hardest, so reguardless of itachi trying we can conclude it wasnt his hardest, vegeta and goku ring a bell ? and despite all of that itachi still showed he is well capable of beating sasuke and oro at the same time.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> His eye sees through it, period. Nothing ever showed him being affected by it


He saw what Sasuke wanted him to see, which means he got effected. The eye allowed him to see through it and dispell it in time. He isn't immune.




> And he saw through Sasuke's with ease. Bad points


And Itachi isn't Sasuke who happens to be a much talented genjutsu user which is the point here.



> Yeah, but the gap isn't as great as people like to assume. And Sasuke wasn't even using his full speed


Itachi wasn't either. He was simply countering what Sasuke threw @ him, he wasn't going all out.



> Not for a FIGHT. His entire goal was 'die.' That doesn't equate to prepping to best someone


He countered everything Sasuke threw @ him and executed his plan successfully against an opponent who trained and prepped his whole life solely to defeat him.



> Ummm, his other plan there was to drive Sasuke to be out of chakra to bring out and seal Orochimaru. He nearly got killed before he did that.



He perfectly executed his plan and the only couple of times that he stumbled were times when he was experiencing the side effects of Tsukiyomi and the fatal illness which was pulling his leg which have absolutely nothing to do with his intelligence or carelessnes. Itachi did all that while he was holding back and dying from an illness.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He saw what Sasuke wanted him to see, which means he got effected. The eye allowed him to see through it and dispell it in time. He isn't immune.


Sasuke wanted Deidara to trick and trap him?
Sasuke used  aGenjutsu.
Deidara saw it through it.
Your point is what?




> And Itachi isn't Sasuke who happens to be a much talented genjutsu user which is the point here.


And Deidara trained specifically against Itachi.
And given what Sasuke tried didn't work *thanks to Deidara's Genjutsu seeing eye*, there's no evidence Itachi will do anything that'll work either



> Itachi wasn't either. He was simply countering what Sasuke threw @ him, he wasn't going all out.


Not trying to kill =/= putting in effort. Especially when he had to totally drain Sasuke of chakra



> He countered everything Sasuke threw @ him and executed his plan successfully against an opponent who trained and prepped his whole life solely to defeat him.


And if Sasuke had kept his mouth shut and just used Kirin, Itachi would have died rather unfulfilled.
Hell, there were points in that fight when Itachi was in trouble. 





> He perfectly executed his plan and the only couple of times that he stumbled were times when he was experiencing the side effects of Tsukiyomi and the fatal illness which was pulling his leg which have absolutely nothing to do with his intelligence or carelessnes. Itachi did all that while he was holding back and dying from an illness.



And the time Sasuke really impaled him with a Chidori, and the time he nearly got fried with a katon, and the time he nearly got killed by Kirin. If Sauske wasn't too busy gloating, he'd have been a corpse already before or after.

Itachi merely avoided a killing blow. Which is quaint when he *turned most of Sasuke's body to ash on the offchance he MIGHT be able to escape*.


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## Senjuclan (May 24, 2010)

Jeez, I seriously cannot believe that this is still going on. Deidara is one tricky fighter but seriously, Itachi would defeat him. Itachi has enough ranged jutsu to finish Deidara. I mean seriously !!!!


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Name them. Amaterasu is restricted. Tsukuyomi is short range. Deidara has knowledge in both scenarios and he stays out of his enemy's range ICly


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## Vergil642 (May 24, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Where?



Dude, the very thing I'm debating with you is what we're talking about. Here, I'll simplify it _even more for you._

1. Sasuke in base shows he can dodge C2 bombs.
2. Sasuke activates CS2. CS and CS2 give a huge speed boost.
3. Sasuke fails to evade a C2 bomb in CS2.
4. Sasuke's movement is hindered by the fact there are mines littering the place, he also isn't sure if his Raiton can defuse the mines yet (he confirms this after getting hit by the subsequent C2).
5. Sasuke in CS2 gets hit by a C2 bomb.

We know CS2 Sasuke>>>Sasuke in speed. We know base Sasuke can evade C2. We know the mines were hindering Sasuke's movement on the ground. He didn't evade the C2 bomb, he could if he would. He can fly. If he can't evade it, even if he can fly, it's a logical deduction that his flight speed is inferior to his ground movement speed.



> Evidenc on the distance?



.

And no, the flames did not "shoot" like a fireball at the Hachibi. There's a big trail looking bit that seems to indicate this, but look at the top of the panel; there's an equally large "plume" that, if we followed the same logic, would indicate the flames came from above.



> And where was that?



I misjudged the distance, my bad. Itachi's Goukakyuu no Jutsu against Kakashi and co doesn't travel more than 5m. It travels about 5m, maybe more (I might attempt to prove this later, but I'm too lazy to do it now), doesn't show any signs of stopping and then hits the treeline causing a large explosion.

Judging from from it's lack of slowing downness, and no sign of stopping soon, I'd consider it a reasonable estimate that it'd exceed it's stated 5m range.

I'm sure you'll disagree however. If I was right, it would be bad for your argument after all 



> Goodie. Show me Tsukuyomi working from more than five meters away.



I have shown you that Sharingan Genjutsu works at greater ranges than the DB states. You have yet to do anything but tell me that I'm wrong because my opinion differs from yours. If you can bring any evidence that shows Tsukuyomi is anything other than an absurdly powerful Sharingan Genjutsu and that it always must have a 5m range, please, be my guest.



> Ummm, no. He has Tsukuyomi. He just has Blaze Release where he manipulates Amaterasu's flames as well.



Tsukuyomi lets you screw with time. Try again. Kagatsuchi is an MS jutsu. He manipulates the black flames with one of his MS eyes.



> Obviously it interferes. Do you have any evidence on Tsukuyomi that contradicts the databook?



I guess it must be obvious as you've figured it out. Is there any further explanation or is that it?



> Where did he state he planned the entire fight? He didn't know of Kirin. He didn't know what Sasuke had from Orochimaru...his entire strategy was that Sasuke MIGHT have Oral Creation Rebirth



 Even a poor translation tells you this basic fact.



> No, they don't. His speed increased and so did his Taijutsu in databook 2



DB 2 covers from the Chuunin exams onwards. Itachi and Kakashi's first encounter is after the Chuunin exams.





> Sasuke didn't see Deidara in his bird despite being right in front of him. And Itachi's ahnds were busy with Kakashi there trying to hold him and Kakashi's clone broke the Genjutsu anyways.
> 
> And yeah, Itachi went against his whole "I LOVE KONOHA" thing *himself* when he ordered Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma. He was SURPRISED by Gai's entry. Kakashi kept up with *and trapped* Itachi fine.[/quote
> 
> ...


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## M?gas Strategos (May 24, 2010)

It's common sense that Sasuke's flight-speed in CS2 is nowhere near his ground speed. No kind of special mobility or speed has ever been hinted at and if it possessed any sort of decent speed or mobility, Sasuke would be using his CS2 wings to fly, every single time.


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## Lightysnake (May 24, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Dude, the very thing I'm debating with you is what we're talking about. Here, I'll simplify it _even more for you._
> 
> 1. Sasuke in base shows he can dodge C2 bombs.


When Deidara's not really trying


> 2. Sasuke activates CS2. CS and CS2 give a huge speed boost.
> 3. Sasuke fails to evade a C2 bomb in CS2.
> 4. Sasuke's movement is hindered by the fact there are mines littering the place, he also isn't sure if his Raiton can defuse the mines yet (he confirms this after getting hit by the subsequent C2).


When Deidara uses a larger faster bomb. Despite *being able to see all the mines and he can fly.



			5. Sasuke in CS2 gets hit by a C2 bomb.
		
Click to expand...

"I'm just going to ignore Sasuke's advantages. They're not important."




			We know CS2 Sasuke>>>Sasuke in speed. We know base Sasuke can evade C2. We know the mines were hindering Sasuke's movement on the ground. He didn't evade the C2 bomb, he could if he would. He can fly. If he can't evade it, even if he can fly, it's a logical deduction that his flight speed is inferior to his ground movement speed.
		
Click to expand...

We know base Sasuke can evade smaller C2 used to test him. So?





			.
		
Click to expand...

I don't see measuring tape.




			And no, the flames did not "shoot" like a fireball at the Hachibi. There's a big trail looking bit that seems to indicate this, but look at the top of the panel; there's an equally large "plume" that, if we followed the same logic, would indicate the flames came from above.
		
Click to expand...


Your extrapolation only





			I misjudged the distance, my bad. Itachi's Goukakyuu no Jutsu against Kakashi and co doesn't travel more than 5m. It travels about 5m, maybe more (I might attempt to prove this later, but I'm too lazy to do it now), doesn't show any signs of stopping and then hits the treeline causing a large explosion.
		
Click to expand...

Okay, then.




			Judging from from it's lack of slowing downness, and no sign of stopping soon, I'd consider it a reasonable estimate that it'd exceed it's stated 5m range.
		
Click to expand...

Your extrapolation. By your admission, it stopped and burst




			I'm sure you'll disagree however. If I was right, it would be bad for your argument after all 

Click to expand...

Even if it did, so what? Nobody's been hit with a Tsukuyomi from anything but relatively close range





			I have shown you that Sharingan Genjutsu works at greater ranges than the DB states. You have yet to do anything but tell me that I'm wrong because my opinion differs from yours. If you can bring any evidence that shows Tsukuyomi is anything other than an absurdly powerful Sharingan Genjutsu and that it always must have a 5m range, please, be my guest.
		
Click to expand...

Tsukuyomi is a specific type of Sharingan genjutsu only an MS user can use. Some genjutsu are given short range, others have long ranges.
Why would Tsukuyomi be different? Can it just have no weaknesses?





			Tsukuyomi lets you screw with time. Try again. Kagatsuchi is an MS jutsu. He manipulates the black flames with one of his MS eyes.
		
Click to expand...

The databook states that you need Tsukuyomi AND Amaterasu to use Susanoo. Period.
Kagutsuchi is not a technique in of itself. It's a subset of the Enton, IE: Blaze Release.
Sasuke's Tsukuyomi besides has been denounced as Itachi's inferior





			I guess it must be obvious as you've figured it out. Is there any further explanation or is that it?
		
Click to expand...


Is there any evidence that contradicts the databooks




			Even a poor translation tells you this basic fact.
		
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We saw already Itachi didn't know about Kitin. And he couldn't possibly know for a fact Sasuke had Oral Creation Rebirth.
I'm not inclined to trust Madara's word on its own here. I'll accept he could plan out a massive deal of it, but literally everything? We saw that wasn't remotely so in the fight itself when Itachi was clearly surprised at points





			DB 2 covers from the Chuunin exams onwards. Itachi and Kakashi's first encounter is after the Chuunin exams.
		
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And we have seen Kakashi's abilities against Itachi specifically improve since, leading to the evidence








			Sasuke didn't see Deidara in his bird despite being right in front of him. And Itachi's ahnds were busy with Kakashi there trying to hold him and Kakashi's clone broke the Genjutsu anyways.

And yeah, Itachi went against his whole "I LOVE KONOHA" thing himself when he ordered Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma. He was SURPRISED by Gai's entry. Kakashi kept up with and trapped Itachi fine.[/quote

Deidara's bird has chakra in it. Sharingan can't see through chakra. This is a point that was critical in Kakashi's fight with Zabuza, it's why Zabuza's mist jutsu was dangerous to him.
		
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And it's not the Byakugan. It can't just see through solid surfaces like that unless it's plot convenient apparently. The Sharingan can be blocked. We've seen the Sharingan and even the Byakugan also can't distinguish between Deidara and his clones




			Itachi's hands were busy ensuring he held on to someone who was in a Genjutsu, unable to do shit in the real world. Kakashi's clone didn't break any Genjutsu, Itachi pointed out that "this isn't working, because you're a KB".
		
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No. Kage Bunshins are like direct copies of people with their own chakra systems. Itachi's clones can put you in a Genjutsu, bunshin can be hit with Genjutsu.

You can also note the grappling is different when Kakashi breaks it. And it isn't 'because you're a Kage bunshin.'
What he says is "I should have known my Genjutsu wouldn't work on you."
The next line is "this is a Kage Bunshin."
No causation




			Itachi in Konohagakure had Kisame with him. If he told Kisame to leave Asuma, the defeated Kakashi and obviously fodder Kurenai alive, what would that have indicated? When facing Kakashi and co in part 2, nobody was there to get suspicious if he lost in an unreasonable manner. All he had to do was put up enough of a fight to not raise suspicion. Which clearly he did.
		
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Kisame DID leave when Itachi told him to despite being hungry for the blood of the guy who kicked him in the face.
Itachi didn't just okay it. He ORDERED it.





			Your inexperience betrays you. I've debated that encounter quite a lot, I've built up the argument over time from "that fight was suspicious" to an elaborate and complex theory that explains the inconsistencies very well.
		
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-snip-




			Heck, originally I thought Itachi sans MS wasn't that much stronger than Kakashi. I've since become better informed with further thought. Bandying about such accusations doesn't become you.
		
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It's a shame. I'm sure you were way less poor man's Nikushimi before that




			Itachi's eyesight clearly isn't that bad as he was able to match Sasuke's shuriken flurry and bust a Karasu Bunshin in the middle of it. The ability to see chakra was used by Obito to deduce Rin was in a Genjutsu a considerable number of chapters earlier. I've already addressed Kakashi's stats and the issue of Itachi's hands.
		
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The ability to see chakra was established. Not seeing through solid rock that blatantly contradicted some things.
And The Karasu BUnshin was part of the Tsukuyomi. They hadn't even moved from the spots when the Tsukuyomi ended. 
Hell, what do handseals have to do with your own eyesight? We saw Itachi's vision through his own eyes.
And guess what? You didn't really address them to any satisfaction but an Uchiha fan's




			And useless on a KB, because as Itachi says "it's a KB" isn't the same as useless on Kakashi. Keep up grasshopper 

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Shame Kage Bunshin are just direct copies of the person with their own chakra systems. we've seen the Byakugan and Sharingan can't tell the difference on numerous occasions
If the Genjutsu didn't work on a kage bunshin, then it wouldn't work on Kakashi





			Sorry, I was overthinking that. I should have asked "why would Neji search intently for someone who he just saw explode?"

I mean, Neji's good, but not Itachi metagaming good.
		
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Neji's eyes are superior to seeing chakra than Itachi's. The Byakugan is better than the Sharingan in that respect. When they arrived and found Deidara before he switched with his clone. And I checked yes, Neji had his Byakugan activated. You can see the veins around his eyes. Neither he nor Kakashi noticed. Why would Itachi notice a bunshin switch?
		
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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sasuke wanted Deidara to trick and trap him?
> Sasuke used  aGenjutsu.
> Deidara saw it through it.
> Your point is what?


Nah Sasuke wanted Deidara to see that he was disintegrated by C4 and Deidara saw it.  which means he was effected by the illusion to some point.



> And Deidara trained specifically against Itachi.
> And given what Sasuke tried didn't work *thanks to Deidara's Genjutsu seeing eye*, there's no evidence Itachi will do anything that'll work either


It doesn't matter who he trained for, he saw through a less talented and experienced shinobi's genjutsu. 
Plus, Deidara specifically said that he trained that eye to counter Dojutsu, itachi has more than dojutsu up his sleeves, like the finger genjutsu, and crow genjutsu. 



> Not trying to kill =/= putting in effort. Especially when he had to totally drain Sasuke of chakra


Sure he put an effort in it. He wasn't just giving his all to it. He didn't push Sasuke more than he could handle.



> And if Sasuke had kept his mouth shut and just used Kirin, Itachi would have died rather unfulfilled.


Itachi'd have used Susano'o anyways. 



> Hell, there were points in that fight when Itachi was in trouble.


Mostly because of his illness and impaired vision, although show me one shinobi who could have handled Sasuke's whole arsenal without being in trouble.



> And the time Sasuke really impaled him with a Chidori, and the time he nearly got fried with a katon,


When did Sasuke impale him with a chidori ? Sasuke used one chidori and Itachi avoided it rather easily while in mid air and fried Sasuke with a Katon in return. Not only he completely avoided the chidori but he also exposed an oppenning, I don't see how he was in trouble.

You mean the Katon he engulfed in 2 seconds with Amaterasu ?



> and the time he nearly got killed by Kirin. If Sauske wasn't too busy gloating, he'd have been a corpse already before or after.


What is holding him back from using Susano'o again ?



> Itachi merely avoided a killing blow. Which is quaint when he *turned most of Sasuke's body to ash on the offchance he MIGHT be able to escape*.



No, first he stopped using Amaterasu after smothering Sasuke's katon and then he used Amaterasu right after Sasuke started running, giving him a chance to escape. He also specifically lit his wing up to avoid causing unnecessary damage. 
Anyways, I am not sure why we are discussing this because the author stated that Itachi was holding back more than once, both in the manga and the databook.



Lightysnake said:


> Shame Kage Bunshin are just direct copies of the person with their own chakra systems. we've seen the Byakugan and Sharingan can't tell the difference on numerous occasions
> If the Genjutsu didn't work on a kage bunshin, then it wouldn't work on Kakashi



Genjutsu can be cast on bunshins, but they just don't feel the effects of it. Itachi specifically said that his genjutsu didn't work because it was a KB.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah Sasuke wanted Deidara to see that he was disintegrated by C4 and Deidara saw it.  which means he was effected by the illusion to some point.


Except he, y'know, saw through it.
I don't even see why you're trying to debat ethis. At no point did Deidara indicate he was fooled



> It doesn't matter who he trained for, he saw through a less talented and experienced shinobi's genjutsu.
> Plus, Deidara specifically said that he trained that eye to counter Dojutsu, itachi has more than dojutsu up his sleeves, like the finger genjutsu, and crow genjutsu.


Because he'll bother for something so weak on an Akatsuki?
He saw through sasuke's. Why can't he see through Itachi's? Give me a reason to doubt it when he trained against Itachi's



> Sure he put an effort in it. He wasn't just giving his all to it. He didn't push Sasuke more than he could handle.


Except when he nearly killed him and freed Orochimaru



> Itachi'd have used Susano'o anyways.


Prove Itachi can use it in that space of time with no warning. Might as well say Itachi'll instinctively raise it when someone fires a sniper rifle at him from a thousand feet



> Mostly because of his illness and impaired vision, although show me one shinobi who could have handled Sasuke's whole arsenal without being in trouble.


Few of them. Pain comes to mind, though. And at that point, the Raikage
But at least we've established Itachi isn't on a different level than everyone else



> When did Sasuke impale him with a chidori ? Sasuke used one chidori and Itachi avoided it rather easily while in mid air and fried Sasuke with a Katon in return. Not only he completely avoided the chidori but he also exposed an oppenning, I don't see how he was in trouble.


'Nearly,' my typo.
Itachi was surprised and barely escaped. Sasuke wasn't even hurt by the katon either



> You mean the Katon he engulfed in 2 seconds with Amaterasu ?


I mean the one he had to leap over. Before he readied Amaterasu, he was losing the Katon fight



> What is holding him back from using Susano'o again ?


Being dead before he knows what's going on.
Exposition on your attacks gives the other guy time to get ready




> No, first he stopped using Amaterasu after smothering Sasuke's katon and then he used Amaterasu right after Sasuke started running, giving him a chance to escape. He also specifically lit his wing up to avoid causing unnecessary damage.
> Anyways, I am not sure why we are discussing this because the author stated that Itachi was holding back more than once, both in the manga and the databook.


He said he wasn't aiming to kill. At several points, Itachi was visibly surprised by things and had to put forth effort very noticeably.

He also had no possible way to know Sasuke'd have a way to escape the flames and given he lost vision in that eye, it doesn't seem he could spam it like that


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except he, y'know, saw through it.
> I don't even see why you're trying to debat ethis. At no point did Deidara indicate he was fooled


I am debating this because you are saying that he is 'immune' which he isn't. Genjutsu can be cast on him, whether he can see through it or not.




> Because he'll bother for something so weak on an Akatsuki?


what ?


> He saw through sasuke's. Why can't he see through Itachi's? Give me a reason to doubt it when he trained against Itachi's


1 reason : 
Itachi has tier 5 genjutsu
Sasuke has tier 4.




> Except when he nearly killed him and freed Orochimaru


That was his plan yeah. Thats why he never gave him more than he couldn't handle, else you know Sasuke would be defeated which would result in his plans failiure.



> Prove Itachi can use it in that space of time with no warning. Might as well say Itachi'll instinctively raise it when someone fires a sniper rifle at him from a thousand feet


I don't have to prove anything. How could Sasuke use Kirin without any warning. He wasn't hiding his presence or anything. He was right infront of Itachi while he was using his ninjutsu. 



> Few of them. Pain comes to mind, though. And at that point, the Raikage
> But at least we've established Itachi isn't on a different level than everyone else


Raikage wouldn't be able to handle Kirin though, atleast not without any trouble. PAin would certianly lose a couple of bodies.
And yeah, Itachi is on the same level with guys like Pain and Raikage, I never said anything opposing that.



> 'Nearly,' my typo.
> Itachi was surprised and barely escaped. Sasuke wasn't even hurt by the katon either


And Sasuke couldn't even escape and took the hit. How is that more troublesome for Itachi than it is for Sasuke. 



> I mean the one he had to leap over. Before he readied Amaterasu, he was losing the Katon fight


He was losing it because Sasuke was using the Juuin boost, although Itachi at that point had Amaterasu and Susano'o in his reserves, so I don't see how he was nearly fried by it when he had more than one option to save himself ?



> Being dead before he knows what's going on.
> Exposition on your attacks gives the other guy time to get ready


So he sees a giant dragon made of thunder forming up in the sky and he doesn't know whats going on ? 
It doesn't matter anyways he used Susano'o at the very moment when the lightning struck, which means he was able to react to the jutsu itself. I don't see why a preparetion is necessary ?



> He said he wasn't aiming to kill. At several points, Itachi was visibly surprised by things and had to put forth effort very noticeably.


He put noticable effort so what ? Trying to restrain someone(or in this scenario tiring someone to death) without killing them is actually alot harder than just killing them.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am debating this because you are saying that he is 'immune' which he isn't. Genjutsu can be cast on him, whether he can see through it or not.


His eye might as well be immune. It sees through it, period. 
Don't get pedantic over what 'immune' means




> what ?


Itachi's finger genjutsu suddenly being enough to totally solo S-rank level ninja? 


> 1 reason :
> Itachi has tier 5 genjutsu
> Sasuke has tier 4.


and so what? Deidara trained against Itachi's and handled weaker Genjutsu just fine




> That was his plan yeah. Thats why he never gave him more than he couldn't handle, else you know Sasuke would be defeated which would result in his plans failiure.



Yeah, I see eighty ways that could go spectacularly wrong. Like, say if Orochimaru, instead of gloating, grabbed Sasuke's body. Or if he just retreated. And Itachi had no way to guarantee Sasuke could even survive what he dished out. Hell, nobody even knew a simple Sharingan could resist Tsukuyomi



> I don't have to prove anything. How could Sasuke use Kirin without any warning. He wasn't hiding his presence or anything. He was right infront of Itachi while he was using his ninjutsu.


Well, for one thing, he wouldn't be standing there, explaining what he's going to do, SHOWING ITACHI THE BOLT and THEN attacking...



> Raikage wouldn't be able to handle Kirin though, atleast not without any trouble. PAin would certianly lose a couple of bodies.
> And yeah, Itachi is on the same level with guys like Pain and Raikage, I never said anything opposing that.


Raikage, sure. Pain? Pain was stated as the strongest in Akatsuki. The databook implies it strongly. The manga states he's unbeatable without knowledge to any one person.
Pain's a damn sight stronger than Itachi. 

Both of those two likely wouldn't even let the enemy get Kirin off, though.



> And Sasuke couldn't even escape and took the hit. How is that more troublesome for Itachi than it is for Sasuke.


From an Amaterasu. That Sasuke nearly didn't let him pull off. 



> He was losing it because Sasuke was using the Juuin boost, although Itachi at that point had Amaterasu and Susano'o in his reserves, so I don't see how he was nearly fried by it when he had more than one option to save himself


When he was focusing on Amaterasu? If he hadn't completed his seals beforehand, or if Sasuke wasn't planning on using Amaterasu in his own plan?



> So he sees a giant dragon made of thunder forming up in the sky and he doesn't know whats going on ?


Do you need to show them the lightning bolt before you kill them?



> It doesn't matter anyways he used Susano'o at the very moment when the lightning struck, which means he was able to react to the jutsu itself. I don't see why a preparetion is necessary ?


Because knowing it is coming is going to allow you to react better



> He put noticable effort so what ? Trying to restrain someone(or in this scenario tiring someone to death) without killing them is actually alot harder than just killing them.



He could've done that with one Tsukuyomi. Could he? No.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

Personally, Lightysnake, I agree with Grimmjowsensei that Itachi, A and Pain are on the same level, but I disagree there are only a few who could have handled Hebi Sasuke's full arsenal. Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Sennin Naruto, Kakashi, Pain, A and Killer Bee could all do it. I also believe that ninja like Sasori, Gaara and Tsunade could beat him before it came to Kirin, although the chances would be significantly lower than Sasuke's of trumping them.


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## Vergil642 (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> When Deidara's not really trying





Deidara was using C2 to test Sasuke's speed. Sasuke used Chidori Senbon and flowed his Raiton into his sword to test he could defuse Deidara's bombs.

So are you going to tell me that Sasuke wasn't really trying either?



> When Deidara uses a larger faster bomb. Despite *being able to see all the mines and he can fly.*


*

Show me that the bomb is faster and it can catch Sasuke when his movement isn't hindered by mines. Also show me Sasuke's flight speed exceeding his ground movement speed.

I'll wait.




			"I'm just going to ignore Sasuke's advantages. They're not important."
		
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This doesn't make any sense. I'm pointing out that Deidara somehow can hit Sasuke when he's making use of a huge advantage despite previously being inable to hit him.




			We know base Sasuke can evade smaller C2 used to test him. So?
		
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Deidara testing Sasuke's speed doesn't mean he's necessarily going easy on him. Is it that hard to comprehend what I'm saying?




			I don't see measuring tape.
		
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Your abilities in judging distance are clearly inferior to my own feeble talents then.




			Your extrapolation only
		
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Despite it being entirely logical? If you disagree actually form an argument, explain why I'm wrong, otherwise there's not much point in posting.




			Your extrapolation. By your admission, it stopped and burst
		
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And wasn't decelerating at all when it hit that treeline, which again would be somewhere in the 5m range.

If an object isn't decelerating visibly when it hits it's apparent range limit, do you think it will suddenly stop when it exceeds said range limit?




			Even if it did, so what? Nobody's been hit with a Tsukuyomi from anything but relatively close range
		
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I'm pointing out, again and again, how the ranges given in the DB are based on what we saw in the manga originally. At later dates these ranges are often exceeded as we saw in the case for Sharingan Genjutsu, Amaterasu and to an extent Goukakyuu no Jutsu.

Considering Tsukuyomi is simply a highly advanced Sharingan Genjutsu and we've seen that Sharingan Genjutsu can be used at relatively long ranges then why can't it be used at those ranges too? Especially when the only stated requirement for use is eye contact.




			Tsukuyomi is a specific type of Sharingan genjutsu only an MS user can use. Some genjutsu are given short range, others have long ranges.
Why would Tsukuyomi be different? Can it just have no weaknesses?
		
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You seem to be under the impression all jutsu must have a specific weakness. It's weakness is that if you're skilled enough you can break it and that it requires eye contact to use. Much like every other Sharingan Genjutsu.




			The databook states that you need Tsukuyomi AND Amaterasu to use Susanoo. Period.
Kagutsuchi is not a technique in of itself. It's a subset of the Enton, IE: Blaze Release.
Sasuke's Tsukuyomi besides has been denounced as Itachi's inferior
		
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The Databook states Susanoo is Itachi's jutsu. Obviously this is incorrect.

The Databook states Susanoo is invincible. Obviously this is incorrect.

And if Kagatsuchi isn't a technique in of itself, then I guess Suiton: Suijinheki no Jutsu, Suiryuudan no Jutsu, Goukakyuu no Jutsu and all elemental jutsu aren't techniques in and of themselves either.

Sasuke's MS Genjutsu hasn't even be named yet and doesn't display any of Tsukuyomi's properties. It has more in common with basic Sharingan Genjutsu, the only difference between the two being it's stronger.




			Is there any evidence that contradicts the databooks
		
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Look above chuckles.




			We saw already Itachi didn't know about Kitin. And he couldn't possibly know for a fact Sasuke had Oral Creation Rebirth.
I'm not inclined to trust Madara's word on its own here. I'll accept he could plan out a massive deal of it, but literally everything? We saw that wasn't remotely so in the fight itself when Itachi was clearly surprised at points
		
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Couldn't possibly know huh. Somehow he knew what Yamata no Jutsu was despite being blind which would hinder his ability to recognise most things.  I'm inclined to believe Madara here because of Zetsu's comments. He outright says Itachi performed poorly in his fight with Sasuke and to explain this theorises he suffered a serious wound beforehand. This is despite having never seen Amaterasu or Susanoo before.

Zetsu believed Itachi performed worse than before despite showing his best jutsu.

And Itachi's clearly surprised at points because he's an excellent liar. The whole point of the fight is that Sasuke can't see through Itachi's lies. Itachi's lying constantly throughout the fight. The only time he might have actually been surprised is by Kirin, but even then considering everything else he magically knows about it can be called into questioni.




			And we have seen Kakashi's abilities against Itachi specifically improve since, leading to the evidence
		
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We saw Kakashi perform better against an utterly passive Itachi than he did against a pro-active Itachi, despite having no increase in his stats since their last fight and not using any new jutsu.




			And it's not the Byakugan. It can't just see through solid surfaces like that unless it's plot convenient apparently. The Sharingan can be blocked. We've seen the Sharingan and even the Byakugan also can't distinguish between Deidara and his clones
		
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Or Neji needs to concentrate to see through objects and, believing Deidara both exploded and Kamui'd to another dimension, didn't bother searching for his obviously dead ass.

And KBs can't be distinguished between by anything. Clay Bunshins apparently are the same.




			No. Kage Bunshins are like direct copies of people with their own chakra systems. Itachi's clones can put you in a Genjutsu, bunshin can be hit with Genjutsu.

You can also note the grappling is different when Kakashi breaks it. And it isn't 'because you're a Kage bunshin.'
What he says is "I should have known my Genjutsu wouldn't work on you."
The next line is "this is a Kage Bunshin."
No causation
		
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I'm confident the wording isn't what you say but I'll let this slide for now.

Should be noted of course that you can interpret Itachi's words as meaning "of course this Genjutsu won't work on Kakashi; it's being used on Kakashi's KB, not Kakashi."




			Kisame DID leave when Itachi told him to despite being hungry for the blood of the guy who kicked him in the face.
Itachi didn't just okay it. He ORDERED it.
		
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Yes. But again you don't read the context. Itachi says "go off those weakened dudes", then Gai appears, then Itachi says "actually screw this, let's leave and do our job while we have the chance as fighting all of Konohagakure isn't a productive use of our time".




			It's a shame. I'm sure you were way less poor man's Nikushimi before that
		
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Being someone's successor indicates you aren't that person. Keep up old boy.




			The ability to see chakra was established. Not seeing through solid rock that blatantly contradicted some things.
And The Karasu BUnshin was part of the Tsukuyomi. They hadn't even moved from the spots when the Tsukuyomi ended. 
Hell, what do handseals have to do with your own eyesight? We saw Itachi's vision through his own eyes.
And guess what? You didn't really address them to any satisfaction but an Uchiha fan's
		
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What things were blatantly contradicted? The Karasu Bunshin wasn't part of Tsukuyomi either, when the DB points out Itachi was kickass at Ninjutsu and Taijutsu it showed a picture of him using that exact KB. We also saw a close up of Itach's MS, indicating it doing something, after the Karasu Bunshin is taken out.

The issue of Itachi's hands is concerning the fact Kakash's KB was open to any attack and Itachi's hands were therefore free to stab it.




			Shame Kage Bunshin are just direct copies of the person with their own chakra systems. we've seen the Byakugan and Sharingan can't tell the difference on numerous occasions
If the Genjutsu didn't work on a kage bunshin, then it wouldn't work on Kakashi

Except the Genjutsu did work. We saw the KB inside it and being affected by it. After the Genjutsu is shut down and only after does it grab Itachi.

In other words, if that was Kakashi the only reason Kakashi wasn't dead was Itachi choosing to not stab him. As it was a KB the only reason it survived was Itachi choosing not to off it.

This also indicates Itachi was choosing to let his foes set him up for a fall. We know he's able to detect Naruto's presence so well he can tag two KBs attacking him from behind while in mid conversation easily. So how did he miss Naruto and a KB setting up a big ol' Rasengan just off to his left? Sure he was Genjutsu'ing a KB, but with the KB at his mercy and Naruto being right in front of him previously, it's very, very odd he doesn't notice this.




			Neji's eyes are superior to seeing chakra than Itachi's. The Byakugan is better than the Sharingan in that respect. When they arrived and found Deidara before he switched with his clone. And I checked yes, Neji had his Byakugan activated. You can see the veins around his eyes. Neither he nor Kakashi noticed. Why would Itachi notice a bunshin switch?
		
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Kakashi being right in front of him underground, when we know the Sharingan can see chakra, without any distractions, is why Itachi should have been able to see it. We know exactly when Kakashi created the KB. We however do not know when Deidara used the Clay Bunshin. It could well have been before Neji turned up, meaning he may never have found Deidara but only his Clay Bunshin and thus be unable to detect him; he was too busy focusing on the Clay Bunshin.
		
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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> His eye might as well be immune. It sees through it, period.
> Don't get pedantic over what 'immune' means


No it isn't, he experienced the genjutsu to some extend, if his eye was immune, then the genjutsu wouldn't work on him.



> Itachi's finger genjutsu suddenly being enough to totally solo S-rank level ninja?


Why not ? I mean, you think Yomi numa can.



> and so what? Deidara trained against Itachi's and handled weaker Genjutsu just fine


So what ? Sasuke trained against Itachi his whole life and see where that took him. Itachi in his worst condition still bested him.

Handling weaker genjutsu just fine doesn't mean he can handle stronger genjutsus. He may or may not, we don't know. But the fact that Sasuke's genjutsu worked to some extend means that a stronger genjutsu may work better. 



> Yeah, I see eighty ways that could go spectacularly wrong. Like, say if Orochimaru, instead of gloating, grabbed Sasuke's body. Or if he just retreated. And Itachi had no way to guarantee Sasuke could even survive what he dished out. Hell, nobody even knew a simple Sharingan could resist Tsukuyomi



But it didn't and it means that Itachi executed his plan flawlessly. There is a saying about this : "If my grandma had balls, she'd be my granddad."
Stop worrying about "what could have happened IF" scenarios, just look @ the results, thats what the author intended to do, the rest doesn't matter.



> Well, for one thing, he wouldn't be standing there, explaining what he's going to do, SHOWING ITACHI THE BOLT and THEN attacking...


And Itachi would be like : "oh a giant lightning dragon is forming in the sky, I better not prepare for anything."



> Raikage, sure. Pain? Pain was stated as the strongest in Akatsuki. The databook implies it strongly.


Implies ? How ?



> The manga states he's unbeatable without knowledge to any one person.


I could say the same thing about Itachi. Check out all of Itachi's battles in the manga. Deidara was dispatched effortlessly and almost instantly because he didn't have knowledge about Itachi's dojutsu, he had to train years for that. Same thing goes for Kakashi and Sasuke. Sasuke needed to train his whole life to even stand a chance against him.

Take your self for example, why are you trying so hard to give his opponents knowledge about Itachi ? Making up shit like "Jiraiya knows about Itachi's arsenal". Well, do you believe they wouldn't stand a chance if they had no knowledge ? I thought so.



> Pain's a damn sight stronger than Itachi.


Thats what you think, but no he isn't.



> Both of those two likely wouldn't even let the enemy get Kirin off, though.


If Itachi had the intention of defeating Sasuke, I am not even sure if the fight would even proceed after the initial genjutsu phase.



> From an Amaterasu. That Sasuke nearly didn't let him pull off.


What ?



> When he was focusing on Amaterasu? If he hadn't completed his seals beforehand, or if Sasuke wasn't planning on using Amaterasu in his own plan?


Amaterasu doesn't require handseals.



> Do you need to show them the lightning bolt before you kill them?


So are you suggesting that Sasuke could magically bypass the stage of forming the jutsu ? But then, how would he cast it ?



> Because knowing it is coming is going to allow you to react better


And Itachi wouldn't be able to react if Sasuke didn't explain what it was ? You are funny.
The guy reacts to attacks that he doesn't even see. Are you expect him to do nothing after seeing a giant dragon forming up in the sky ? 
Besides, I still don't understand how this is any relevant to his reaction, he reacted after the lightning struck, meaning he formed the jutsu at the same time or after the attack.



> He could've done that with one Tsukuyomi. Could he? No.


How could he tire Sasuke to death with just Tsukiyomi ? He needed Sasuke to spend all his chakra so that he wouldn't be able to supress Orochimaru anymore.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No it isn't, he experienced the genjutsu to some extend, if his eye was immune, then the genjutsu wouldn't work on him.



And it didn't. He saw through it.
With no apparent effort or hesitation on his part.
You've inherited Nikushimi's penchant for stubbornness 



> Why not ? I mean, you think Yomi numa can.


Yes, the A-rank Jutsu capable of instantly sinking anything the user desires is soe quivalent to a weak Genjutsu that even weak Naruto can partially resist



> So what ? Sasuke trained against Itachi his whole life and see where that took him. Itachi in his worst condition still bested him.


Great equivalent. Except Sasuke didn't have an insta kill against him.
And you neglect the fact poor little Itachi couldn't nail Sasuke with a Genjutsu



> Handling weaker genjutsu just fine doesn't mean he can handle stronger genjutsus. He may or may not, we don't know. But the fact that Sasuke's genjutsu worked to some extend means that a stronger genjutsu may work better.


Sure we do: someone posted that his eye is immune to Genjutsu. We know Deidara saw through Sasuke's with no effort. We know he trained against Itachi's. Ergo, he should easily see through it.




> But it didn't and it means that Itachi executed his plan flawlessly. There is a saying about this : "If my grandma had balls, she'd be my granddad."
> Stop worrying about "what could have happened IF" scenarios, just look @ the results, thats what the author intended to do, the rest doesn't matter.


Yeah, except Itachi wasn't omniscient and things could have gone wrong.




> And Itachi would be like : "oh a giant lightning dragon is forming in the sky, I better not prepare for anything."


Because Sasuke had to show him Kirin before just throwing his hand down, right



> Implies ? How ?


By stating the reason every other member of the Akatsuki, all of them capable of defeating thousands on their own, are kept in line because of Pain's power.
Last I checked that's Itachi, too
And the manga outright calls him the strongest man in Akatsuki in 'The Target.' Madara states him as 'invincible,' and Fukasaku said without knowledge he's unbeatable


> I could say the same thing about Itachi. Check out all of Itachi's battles in the manga. Deidara was dispatched effortlessly and almost instantly because he didn't have knowledge about Itachi's dojutsu, he had to train years for that. Same thing goes for Kakashi and Sasuke. Sasuke needed to train his whole life to even stand a chance against him.


Yeah, Deidara was nine at the time. 
So people have to train to be on a high level unless they get handed powerups like every Uchiha in history. This is a bad thing why...?



> Take your self for example, why are you trying so hard to give his opponents knowledge about Itachi ? Making up shit like "Jiraiya knows about Itachi's arsenal". Well, do you believe they wouldn't stand a chance if they had no knowledge ? I thought so.


Itachi thought Jiraiya with no knowledge of him could kill him and Kisame at the same time and they might be able to force a tie.
And he didn't even know about Sennin Mode.
What does this imply?



> Thats what you think, but no he isn't.


brilliant retort. No, it's obvious to everyone but the strongest Uchiha fans that Pain was above everyone else in Akatsuki



> If Itachi had the intention of defeating Sasuke, I am not even sure if the fight would even proceed after the initial genjutsu phase.


Nothing implies Itachi held back there.
At all



> What ?


He interrupted his first attempt, did he not?



> Amaterasu doesn't require handseals.


Then why did I post an image of Itachi clearly using them for it?



> So are you suggesting that Sasuke could magically bypass the stage of forming the jutsu ? But then, how would he cast it ?


He's been stated as more skilled with it than Itachi anyways.
Besides he can instantly cast it. Unlike Itachi who required a period of time to focus it


----------



## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

> And Itachi wouldn't be able to react if Sasuke didn't explain what it was ? You are funny.
> The guy reacts to attacks that he doesn't even see. Are you expect him to do nothing after seeing a giant dragon forming up in the sky ?
> Besides, I still don't understand how this is any relevant to his reaction, he reacted after the lightning struck, meaning he formed the jutsu at the same time or after the attack.


Yeah, the only reason he reacted was because Sasuke 
It's like saying Itachi'd survive a sniper bullet from a mile away. Sure, he'd throw Susanoo up if you told him the precise second, direction and spent five minutes on a cellphone telling him you were getting ready to shoot him. without knowledge?
He only saw the giant dragon because Sasuke showed it to him. If he wanted, he could 've just slammed his hand down and ended it there



> How could he tire Sasuke to death with just Tsukiyomi ? He needed Sasuke to spend all his chakra so that he wouldn't be able to supress Orochimaru anymore.



It's a Tsukuyomi, he could have Sasuke endlessly trying to Chdiroi an Itachi who wasn't there or let him fight it out.
Pretty stupid for Itachi to use such a chakra consuming move that Sasuke can break then




Vergil642 said:


> Deidara was using C2 to test Sasuke's speed. Sasuke used Chidori Senbon and flowed his Raiton into his sword to test he could defuse Deidara's bombs.
> 
> So are you going to tell me that Sasuke wasn't really trying either?


Sasuke's life depended on being able to diffuse the bombs. He put his life on the gamble.
Deidara was just toying with sasuke and testing his abilities there




> Show me that the bomb is faster and it can catch Sasuke when his movement isn't hindered by mines. Also show me Sasuke's flight speed exceeding his ground movement speed.


Moving The Goalposts fallacy.  Sasuke could see the safe spots already.
Apparently Sasuke is so fast he can easily dodge any bomb Deidara throws. If his flight speed is that inferior, he should still be able to dodge





> This doesn't make any sense. I'm pointing out that Deidara somehow can hit Sasuke _when he's making use of a huge advantage_ despite previously being inable to hit him.


And ignoring Sasuke says he was merely testing him. When Deidara used bigger bombs, what happened?
Sasuke wasn't hindered by the miens as he could see the safe spots




> Deidara testing Sasuke's speed doesn't mean he's necessarily going easy on him. Is it that hard to comprehend what I'm saying?


It doesn't mean he's giving his all.
Comprehend that?




> Your abilities in judging distance are clearly inferior to my own feeble talents then./Quote]
> I'll wait for your Exact Measurement No Jutsu
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

> Couldn't possibly know huh. Somehow he knew what Yamata no Jutsu was despite being blind which would hinder his ability to recognise most things.  I'm inclined to believe Madara here because of Zetsu's comments. He outright says Itachi performed poorly in his fight with Sasuke and to explain this theorises he suffered a serious wound beforehand. This is despite having never seen Amaterasu or Susanoo before.


Yeah, the enormous, roaring snake heads are so hard to miss.
Itachi is visibly surprised on numerous occasions. The only time Zetsu commented his performance was worse than usual were the reverse shurikens and the coughing up blood which he chocked up to Susanoo.

And he knew about Yamata as he'd obviously seen it before. He said as much.



> Zetsu believed Itachi performed worse than before despite showing his best jutsu.


And he was talking about his strictly physical abilities



> And Itachi's clearly surprised at points because _he's an excellent liar._ The whole point of the fight is that Sasuke can't see through Itachi's lies. Itachi's lying constantly throughout the fight. The only time he might have actually been surprised is by Kirin, but even then considering everything else he magically knows about it can be called into questioni.


Yeah, even when Sasuke's *not even looking at him* and can't p[ossibly see him, he's surprised. Itachi even things 'damn it...' when he sees the giant fireball flying at him and had to jump.
It couldn't possibly be he's surprised by Sasuke being so strong without the MS which Itachi pressured him to get. No, he's just such a good liar! Despite visible surprise in the text bubbles...




> We saw Kakashi perform better against an utterly passive Itachi than he did against a pro-active Itachi, despite having no increase in his stats since their last fight and not using any new jutsu.


Just added experience. And MS.
And he was hardly doing terrible against the pro active Itachi until MS came out.




> Or Neji needs to concentrate to see through objects and, believing Deidara both exploded and Kamui'd to another dimension, didn't bother searching for his obviously dead ass.


He had the Byakugan out already. No dice. He'd be seeing through plenty automatically



> And KBs can't be distinguished between by anything. Clay Bunshins apparently are the same.


Nor can he see the substitution.




> I'm confident the wording isn't what you say but I'll let this slide for now.
> 
> Should be noted of course that you can interpret Itachi's words as meaning "of course this Genjutsu won't work on Kakashi; it's being used on Kakashi's KB, not Kakashi."


Sure. But the dialogue still doesn't imply causation.

Kakashi's clone is seen in the Genjutsu.
It just breaks it. 




> Yes. But again you don't read the context. Itachi says "go off those weakened dudes", then Gai appears, then Itachi says "actually screw this, let's leave and do our job while we have the chance as fighting all of Konohagakure isn't a productive use of our time".


Itachi was fine killing them before Gai arrived. Yes, he fled. Maybe Gai gave him the excuse. It doesn't change before that he was willing to see them dead.
And frankly, given Itachi HAD to be recognized to send Danzo that warning, he had to be aware nobody was going to let him go freely. 
Nothing implies he was going to spare Naruto, either. Only Sasuke's arrival-and Sasuke even know about him there was just bad luck thanks to Aoba- prevented Kisame from attacking the kid. Itachi made no move to stop Kisame or defend Naruto. 




> Being someone's successor indicates you aren't that person. Keep up old boy.


Do you know the definition for 'poor man's etc etc' I must ask?
Being, say 'the poor man's Itachi' as some called Sasuke doesn't mean he's a direct copy.



> What things were blatantly contradicted? The Karasu Bunshin wasn't part of Tsukuyomi either, when the DB points out Itachi was kickass at Ninjutsu and Taijutsu it showed a picture of him using that exact KB. We also saw a close up of Itach's MS, indicating it doing something, _after_ the Karasu Bunshin is taken out.


Itachi and Sasuke are shown flinging shurikens at one another. I believe Zetsu noted they hadn't moved an inch. When the Tsukuyomi ends, Sasuke and then Itachi falls to the ground. They have not moved from where they were spamming Shurikens.
In the Taijutsu match, they moved noticeably. when we saw the close up, Itachi was less than a foot away from Sasuke to boot



> The issue of Itachi's hands is concerning the fact Kakash's KB was open to any attack and Itachi's hands were therefore _free_ to stab it.


His hands were being used to *hold Kakashi* who was holding him as well. When it broke the Genjutsu, it was holding Itachi firmly in place



> Shame Kage Bunshin are just direct copies of the person with their own chakra systems. we've seen the Byakugan and Sharingan can't tell the difference on numerous occasions
> If the Genjutsu didn't work on a kage bunshin, then it wouldn't work on Kakashi
> 
> Except the Genjutsu did work. We saw the KB inside it and being affected by it. After the Genjutsu is shut down and _only after_ does it grab Itachi.


After it broke it you mean. 
Genjutsu 'not working' is kind of defined by the other person being easily able to break it in my experience. Just like how Kurenai's Tree Bind didn't work on Itachi




> In other words, if that was Kakashi the only reason Kakashi wasn't dead was Itachi _choosing to not stab him._ As it was a KB the only reason it survived was Itachi choosing not to off it.


And ho could he have stabbed him? He had to hold Kakashi in place with both hands. His hands were tied up.



> This also indicates Itachi was choosing to let his foes set him up for a fall. We know he's able to detect Naruto's presence so well he can tag two KBs attacking him from behind while in mid conversation easily.


Yeah, Naruto at that time was being really subtle and stealthy.



> So how did he miss Naruto and a KB setting up a big ol' Rasengan just off to his left?


He hadn't formed it yet. He didn't until Kakashi yelled "Handle him and my Kage Bunshin!"


> Sure he was Genjutsu'ing a KB, but with the KB at his mercy and Naruto being right in front of him previously, it's very, very odd he doesn't notice this.


The KB 'at his mercy?' It broke the Genjutsu and held Itachi in place. 
It's only odd if you can't distinguish between the circumstances



> Kakashi being right in front of him underground, when we know the Sharingan can see chakra, without any distractions, is why Itachi should have been able to see it. We know exactly when Kakashi created the KB. We however do not know when Deidara used the Clay Bunshin. It could well have been before Neji turned up, meaning he may never have found Deidara but only his Clay Bunshin and thus be unable to detect him; he was too busy focusing on the Clay Bunshin.


Until Sasuke needed it to win, the Sharingan never saw through solid objects or *underground*. Even the Byakugan missed someone using the headhunter Jutsu. 
And no, we sure as hell know Deidara used it after Team Gai arrived. He substitued out to hide in the bushes from Naruto's attack. We saw him thinking a lot with no indication of being a bunshin. He even commented on other things after it. And thought hwo he couldn't escape on his own surrounded and attacked by everyone.

Neji didn't detect him. Sasuke didn't detect his substitution. Itachi will not either


----------



## Lelouchprince3 (May 27, 2010)

lighty zetsu commented on itachi's preformace in general, and was so shocked at it he deduced he might of been heavily injured b4 the start of the match, that says  something.


----------



## Vergil642 (May 27, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sasuke's life depended on being able to diffuse the bombs. He put his life on the gamble.
> Deidara was just toying with sasuke and testing his abilities there



Sasuke had his backup all along. He always had a way out.

Clearly this means Sasuke was toying with Deidara by your standards 



> Moving The Goalposts fallacy.  Sasuke could see the safe spots already.
> Apparently Sasuke is so fast he can easily dodge any bomb Deidara throws. If his flight speed is that inferior, he should still be able to dodge



It's nice you can wiki fallacies.

Yes, Sasuke's ground speed when not hindered from what we've seen is enough to dodge Deidara's bombs. The explosions are a different matter of course (thinking of C3#18 here). As for seeing the mines, is it so hard to consider the possibility that Sasuke can't manouvre at such high speeds? Is it so hard to consider the fact that Sasuke clearly had difficulty dodging the C2 bombs anyway?

Is it so hard to consider that as Sasuke's never displayed the same speed flying when he does running that his flight speed might just be slower than his running speed?



> And ignoring Sasuke says he was merely testing him. When Deidara used bigger bombs, what happened?
> Sasuke wasn't hindered by the miens as he could see the safe spots



Mines are still dotting the place meaning Sasuke can't move at top speed. You try running at top speed while weaving between many obstacles. You'll find you can't move at top speed. Similarly it's apparent Sasuke can't move at those speeds when flying or jumping as _he's never shown the capability to do so._



> It doesn't mean he's giving his all.
> Comprehend that?



And there's nothing concrete to prove he can hit Sasuke when Sasuke's mobility isn't hindered as he's never hit Sasuke when Sasuke's mobility is not hindered.



> I'll wait for your Exact Measurement No Jutsu



Then you concede this point?



> Why should I here? I'm hardly going to convince you. The Hachibi was also able to get a tentacle in the way first and is shown reacting as the panels close in on it.
> It's quite clear like your idol, you'll just ignore anything you dislike



Kumogakure has info on Amaterasu. The Raikage knew to move out of Sasuke's LoS when his eye started bleeding. It's reasonable to assume that his brother and similarly top level Shinobi would be privvy to the same sort of information on one of Kumogakure's biggest threats.

Bee sees Sasuke's eye bleeding, knows that means Amaterasu's coming, knows he can't move away, hides behind a tentacle as the flames ignite. Simples 



> Hardly exceeding it.



I'm not seeing your point. That shows it went more than a few metres, something more in the region of 4-5. It didn't slow down at all and hit the treeline.

If something is moving without showing any signs of deceleration, it's stated range is 5m and it hits an object at 5m, is it not reasonable to assume that hey, it might just be capable of exceeding the aforementioned stated range? After all, there's nothing indicating it would stop if it wasn't for the trees it hit.



> Or I'm astounding you can tell this from still panels, I really am.



There's nothing indicating it, so why should we believe it was going to stop if it wasn't for the treeline when we know for a fact the ranges in the DB are extremely suspect?



> Show me Tsukuyomi exceeding the range limit.



I've shown you Sharingan Genjutsu exceeding it's range limit. Show me why Tsukuyomi can't if it's requirements are met, as it is after all simply a highly advanced Sharingan Genjutsu.



> Show me tsukuyomi exceeding the range limit or drop the point. Not every genjutsu is equal.
> Could Deidara be hit with a Genjutsu if he's flying as high as he saw in Suna looking at their eyes through a scope when they can't even see him?



See above. And presumably as long as Deidara's looking at the Sharingan directly and the Uchiha/Kakashi knows it they'd be able to Genjutsu him.

Knowing he's making eye contact however is obviously near impossible at such ranges.



> If you're skilled enough, you can break it. Thank you.



Deidara's not skilled enough. Sasuke's skill is questionable as he couldn't fail in that instance.



> The databook uses hyperbole on techniques a lot
> And it doesn't state it's 'Itachi's jutsu.' It states:
> User: Itachi Uchiha
> Just like it does any other jutsu. It doesn't list Rikudou Sennin as a 'user' for the Rinnegan, either. It just means that in the series so far only Itachi had used Susanoo. Hell, Naruto wasn't a user for Chou Oodama Rasengan then



Yes, this is my point exactly. The DB's information applies only to the chapters preceeding it. The chapters afterward contradict it and prove it wrong in various areas.

You're agreeing with me here, you just seem to not understand my point.



> Now you're getting it. All those are subsets of releases as techniques. Kagutsuchi is just a move for the Enton (IE: Blaze release). It's just a fancy name for Sasuke manipulating his flames to his Susanoo.
> What I meant-as you well know- is that it isn't a technique that's native to the eyes like Tsukuyomi



This is entirely your opinion.

Also, your opinion concerning Kagatsuchi is wrong.







Kagatsuchi is an MS jutsu that Sasuke has in his right eye. Amaterasu is in his left. 



> It hasn't had the 'properties' only in it being weaker than Itachi's. His Amaterasu is better, though.
> We've seen him use it as an MS Genjutsu, seen him clutch at his eye in pain afterwards, seen the inverted color scheme with Bee...Danzo directly compared it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi when deriding it...



His Amaterasu is the same. His Kagatsuchi lets him manipulate it. The inverted colour indicates nothing; Sharingan Genjutsu allows you to manipulate what your victim sees. Itachi has displayed the ability to make Tsukuymoi appear real and not just in black and white.

Danzou would obviously directly compare Sasuke's MS Genjutsu to Itachi's while deriding it. He's comparing two Genjutsu and pointing out how Sasuke's is weaker than Itachi's.



> absolutely none. The only contradiction here is to the laws of grammar.



I've pointed out numerous times the DB's ranges have been proven wrong at a later date. Tsukuyomi is a Sharingan Genjutsu. Sharingan Genjutsu only requires eye contact; range is not a factor.

Keep up old boy.



Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, the enormous, roaring snake heads are so hard to miss.
> Itachi is visibly surprised on numerous occasions. The only time Zetsu commented his performance was worse than usual were the reverse shurikens and the coughing up blood which he chocked up to Susanoo.
> 
> And he knew about Yamata as he'd obviously seen it before. He said as much.



Yes, because it's so easy to tell the difference between Yamata no Jutsu and a bunch of giant snakes, which Orochimaru can summon.

Itachi is also an excellent liar. Is it so hard to understand that the whole point of the big reveal about him is that every time we've seen him he's been acting the part of the villain to utter perfection? Everything he's done can be called into question, most things can suddenly be explained very easily by this as well.



> And he was talking about his strictly physical abilities



When you have proof of this, do tell.



> Yeah, even when Sasuke's *not even looking at him* and can't p[ossibly see him, he's surprised. Itachi even things 'damn it...' when he sees the giant fireball flying at him and had to jump.
> It couldn't possibly be he's surprised by Sasuke being so strong without the MS which Itachi pressured him to get. No, he's just such a good liar! Despite visible surprise in the text bubbles...



Yes, because he knows evading it will be difficult when suffering from the effects of a fatal disease, Tsukuyomi feedback and a serious leg injury.

And you clearly take what I say too literally when you point out Sasuke isn't looking at him. Or do you have the ability to see through lies with your eyes?



> Just added experience. And MS.
> And he was hardly doing terrible against the pro active Itachi until MS came out.



He wasn't able to do anything but try and evade his jutsu and was being exhausted by Itachi's attacks. I wouldn't rank that as terrible, just pretty poor. He was near helpless.



> He had the Byakugan out already. No dice. He'd be seeing through plenty automatically



Or perhaps the Byakugan doesn't see through everything automatically? Perhaps you have to focus it and search?

If not we have a serious contradiction on our hands.



> Nor can he see the substitution.



Except nobody used a Kawarimi no Jutsu in front of Itachi and got away with it. Sasuke used Oral Rebirth as an advanced Kawarimi, which is just ever so slightly different.


----------



## Vergil642 (May 27, 2010)

> Sure. But the dialogue still doesn't imply causation.
> 
> Kakashi's clone is seen in the Genjutsu.
> It just breaks it.



Proof it breaks it? Itachi says this obviously won't work and ends the Genjutsu, because it's not going to work if it's not the real Kakashi.



> Itachi was fine killing them before Gai arrived. Yes, he fled. Maybe Gai gave him the excuse. It doesn't change before that he was willing to see them dead.
> And frankly, given Itachi HAD to be recognized to send Danzo that warning, he had to be aware nobody was going to let him go freely.
> Nothing implies he was going to spare Naruto, either. Only Sasuke's arrival-and Sasuke even know about him there was just bad luck thanks to Aoba- prevented Kisame from attacking the kid. Itachi made no move to stop Kisame or defend Naruto.



Gai not there=Itachi and Kisame have no reason to leave Kakashi and pals alive, there's nobody able to stop them and they can kill them and leave easily. Gai not there=Itachi has no excuse to leave them alive.

Gai there=obviously more dudes are coming and the first one there is pretty darn powerful. Gai there=Itachi has an excuse to leave and knows pursuit will not immediately occur as Gai has to see to his comrades.

Of course he was aware nobody was going to see him. It explains why he's willing to do all this and waste a Tsukuyomi; it's all a way to give himself plenty of excuses later when asked why he didn't capture the Kyuubi.

As for Naruto, the fact Itachi used a very basic and obvious tactic to distract a Sannin of all people kinda indicates he was setting Jiraiya up. He can then say "I left the known womaniser a trap in the form of a Genjutsu'd chick but unfortunately he was able to overcome his normal urges and come inturrupt us and force us to flee. I didn't have the time to do much else either as Konohagakure had already been alerted to our presence when we schooled some of their top Jounin earlier."

And yes, Itachi was probably willing to see Naruto lose his legs. He's willing to sacrifice the few for the greater good. He loves Konohagakure but if he has to he'll hurt their Shinobi to protect his cover.

To put it simply: if he utterly has to he will do evil things. If he can find _any other way_ he'll find it and do it. That's why the bodycount was so low and why he and Kisame didn't off anyone.



> Do you know the definition for 'poor man's etc etc' I must ask?
> Being, say 'the poor man's Itachi' as some called Sasuke doesn't mean he's a direct copy.



Being a poor man's Nikushimi would imply he and I are quite similar, except I'm inferior. We share an opinion on Itachi and a few other things but are otherwise rather different, especially concerning Sasuke and the Sannin's level of power amongst the various Kage level characters.

Perhaps it would be prudent to research or otherwise find out a bit about someone you're insulting before doing so; you might find an insult that makes a little more sense that way.



> Itachi and Sasuke are shown flinging shurikens at one another. I believe Zetsu noted they hadn't moved an inch. When the Tsukuyomi ends, Sasuke and then Itachi falls to the ground. They have not moved from where they were spamming Shurikens.
> In the Taijutsu match, they moved noticeably. when we saw the close up, Itachi was less than a foot away from Sasuke to boot



Zetsu notes they haven't moved an inch before this, while Itachi is explaining Madara's background to Sasuke. They also, funnily enough, jump back to their original positions after clashing together.

And the Taijutsu match was in Genjutsu.



> His hands were being used to *hold Kakashi* who was holding him as well. When it broke the Genjutsu, it was holding Itachi firmly in place



.

.

While we have this page linked up...note how Itachi says "I wouldn't expect you to be affected by the Genjutsu. This is a Kage Bunshin".

It's plainly stating "I wouldn't expect you, the real Kakashi, to be affected by a Genjutsu I used on a Kage Bunshin."

 offers more of the same. "That explains why my Genjutsu didn't work on you, I used it on a Kage Bunshin."

So yeah, assuming KBs aren't immune to Genjutsu Itachi is pointing out "obviously this Genjutsu did shit to you, I didn't cast it on you."



> After it broke it you mean.
> Genjutsu 'not working' is kind of defined by the other person being easily able to break it in my experience. Just like how Kurenai's Tree Bind didn't work on Itachi



Unless you believe Kakashi's Genjutsu breaking prowess is superior to Sasuke's, the KB didn't break it.

Also, look above for why the Genjutsu didn't work on _Kakashi._ Protip: Because it _was not used on Kakashi._



> And ho could he have stabbed him? He had to hold Kakashi in place with both hands. His hands were tied up.



The KB was in a Genjutsu and thus unable to do anything in the real world. Itachi didn't have to hold on to the KB while it was trapped. It was utterly open and Itachi could do what he liked to it.



> Yeah, Naruto at that time was being really subtle and stealthy.



Yes, he did his best. Yet he was still discovered by Itachi and his KBs easily disposed of.



> He hadn't formed it yet. He didn't until Kakashi yelled "Handle him and my Kage Bunshin!"



Still doesn't explain why Itachi didn't "sense" him or however Itachi does that whole "I know where you are exactly despite not looking at you" thing.



> The KB 'at his mercy?' It broke the Genjutsu and held Itachi in place.
> It's only odd if you can't distinguish between the circumstances



Look above for the explanation.



> Until Sasuke needed it to win, the Sharingan never saw through solid objects or *underground*. Even the Byakugan missed someone using the headhunter Jutsu.
> And no, we sure as hell know Deidara used it after Team Gai arrived. He substitued out to hide in the bushes from Naruto's attack. We saw him thinking a lot with no indication of being a bunshin. He even commented on other things after it. And thought hwo he couldn't escape on his own surrounded and attacked by everyone.
> 
> Neji didn't detect him. Sasuke didn't detect his substitution. Itachi will not either



Ok, so let's say it's PnJ. That means Itachi's Shouten Clone's defeat at Kakashi and Naruto's hands can't be considered legit anymore as PnJ means he has an extra ability he didn't get to use then, something that would wildly change the outcome of the battle.

Well, it would if he wanted to win anyway 

And if that argument wasn't BS.

Show me when Deidara left a Clay Bunshin for Team Gai to fight. I'll wait.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Sasuke had his backup all along. He always had a way out.
> 
> Clearly this means Sasuke was toying with Deidara by your standards


Yeah, his backup was Kirin. Which is worthless if the opponent can fight back when you try setting it up





> It's nice you can wiki fallacies.
> 
> Yes, Sasuke's ground speed when not hindered from what we've seen is enough to dodge Deidara's bombs. The explosions are a different matter of course (thinking of C3#18 here). As for seeing the mines, is it so hard to consider the possibility that Sasuke can't manouvre at such high speeds? Is it so hard to consider the fact that Sasuke clearly had difficulty dodging the C2 bombs anyway?


Enough to dodge smaller, weaker bombs, 
and if his CS2 is so much faster than base, it shouldn't even matter that he can't maneuver as well if his speed is supposedly so much higher



> Is it so hard to consider that as Sasuke's never displayed the same speed flying when he does running that his flight speed might just be slower than his running speed?


And according to your argument he should be so fast it doesn't matter




> Mines are still dotting the place meaning Sasuke can't move at top speed. You try running at top speed while weaving between many obstacles. You'll find you can't move at top speed. Similarly it's apparent Sasuke can't move at those speeds when flying or jumping as _he's never shown the capability to do so._


Many static obstacles where you can see them. When we saw his flight speed was fast enough to evade a mine when he'd already stepped on it




> And there's nothing concrete to prove he can hit Sasuke when Sasuke's mobility isn't hindered as he's never hit Sasuke when Sasuke's mobility is not hindered.


Begging the question. 




> Then you concede this point?


Prove the distance exactly. Or you have no point




> Kumogakure has info on Amaterasu. The Raikage knew to move out of Sasuke's LoS when his eye started bleeding. It's reasonable to assume that his brother and similarly top level Shinobi would be privvy to the same sort of information on one of Kumogakure's biggest threats.


Would you provide evidence they knew of Amaterasu before Sasuke's arrival?



> Bee sees Sasuke's eye bleeding, knows that means Amaterasu's coming, knows he can't move away, hides behind a tentacle as the flames ignite. Simples


According to you, Bee's at such a distance where he shouldn't be able to see Sasuke's eye.
And he only reacted after Sasuke's eye was bleeding and 'AMATERASU' was written in big letters




> I'm not seeing your point. That shows it went more than a few metres, something more in the region of 4-5. It didn't slow down at all and hit the treeline.


Which isn't that far from Itachi to begin with, point being?


> If something is moving without showing any signs of deceleration, it's stated range is 5m and it hits an object at 5m, is it not reasonable to assume that hey, it might just be capable of exceeding the aforementioned stated range? After all, there's nothing indicating it would stop if it wasn't for the trees it hit.


But it did stop, before it exceeded its range




> There's nothing indicating it, so why should we believe it was going to stop if it wasn't for the treeline when we know for a fact the ranges in the DB are extremely suspect?


'We know?' No, you think so. I'm trusting the author's word over an Uchiha fan who can't accept maybe they aren't unlimited. 




> I've shown you Sharingan Genjutsu exceeding it's range limit. Show me why Tsukuyomi can't if it's requirements are met, as it is after all simply a highly advanced Sharingan Genjutsu.


Tsukuyomi is a different technique and an MS Genjuutsu besides. Your basic argument is "Other techniques exceed  its range."
I shouldn't have to explain the flaw in that methodology.



> See above. And presumably as long as Deidara's looking at the Sharingan directly and the Uchiha/Kakashi knows it they'd be able to Genjutsu him.


And with full knowledge, will he?
And they can't see his eyes, he can see theirs. How would they perform the Genjutsu?



> Knowing he's making eye contact however is obviously near impossible at such ranges.


And if they know? Stop dancing around the point. 




> Deidara's not skilled enough. Sasuke's skill is questionable as he couldn't fail in that instance.


Except Deidara has a Genjutsu seeing eye that makes his skill enough.





> Yes, this is my point exactly. The DB's information applies only to the chapters preceeding it. The chapters afterward contradict it and prove it wrong in various areas.
> 
> You're agreeing with me here, you just seem to not understand my point.


No, I understand. It's just stupid. You're attempting to say since other techniques might exceed the DB's ranges, then it's fair to assume other techniques must with no proof




> This is entirely your opinion.
> 
> Also, your opinion concerning Kagatsuchi is wrong.



Kagatsuchi is an MS jutsu that Sasuke has in his right eye. Amaterasu is in his left. [/Quote]
It takes some persistent stubbornness to cite something and *still get it wrong*.
TN: Enton= flame element. 
Or 'Blaze Release' as it's translated some times. KAgutsuchi is a technique for it. Sasuke has managed to use the Amaterasu like this. That does not mean it is an MS technique that woke up like Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.





> His Amaterasu is the same. His Kagatsuchi lets him manipulate it. The inverted colour indicates nothing; Sharingan Genjutsu allows you to manipulate what your victim sees. Itachi has displayed the ability to make Tsukuymoi appear real and not just in black and white.


No, the 'Enton' is the manipulation. Kagutsuchi is just the same of the specific thing he was using right there.,
And Sasuke has demonstrated the ability to make Tsukuyomi appear real as well. See, the Danzo fight.

Either way, the databook is clear: Susanoo is only accessible when one has both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu both. We have seen Sasuke has the two of them. If he has other techniques as well, that's just ducky.



> Danzou would obviously directly compare Sasuke's MS Genjutsu to Itachi's while deriding it. He's comparing two Genjutsu and pointing out how Sasuke's is weaker than Itachi's.


he is talking Tsukuyomi specifically. Know any other MS Genjutsu that damages your eye, btw?




> I've pointed out numerous times the DB's ranges have been proven wrong at a later date. Tsukuyomi is a Sharingan Genjutsu. Sharingan Genjutsu only requires eye contact; range is not a factor.


Because all Genjutsu are the same. Utakata's range must be wrong then, too!
No. Show me Tsukuyomi exceeding its range. From beyond that, Itachi may not be able to focus eye contact.
You do not get to decide the databook is wrong on a simple fact when it hurts your point unless there is a direct contradiction


----------



## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

> Keep up old boy.


Would it be too much to ask that someone who can't even use a comma correctly stop the condescension? 




> Yes, because it's so easy to tell the difference between Yamata no Jutsu and a bunch of giant snakes, which Orochimaru can summon.


Eight snakes at once, when Orochimaru had emerged AS that? Itachi said he knew it as the Yamata.



> Itachi is also an excellent liar. Is it so hard to understand that the whole point of the big reveal about him is that every time we've seen him he's been acting the part of the villain to utter perfection? Everything he's done can be called into question, most things can suddenly be explained very easily by this as well.


Yeah, 'acting.' "Kill Kurenai and Asuma and-hey, it's Gai, wasn't expecting that!"
Itachi: It's okay, I was going to murder you! And that I forever traumatized Sasuke and was totally responsible for him going to Orochimaru! I was ACTING!
I love how willing everyone is to totally forget the horrible things he did and just gloss over the idea he MIGHT have been something short of an invincible God because...acting!
He showed visible surprise on a number of occasions. He's not infallible and can lose fights. Get over it.




> When you have proof of this, do tell.


Zetsu elaborated, talking about his speed and speed alone.




> Yes, because he knows evading it will be difficult when suffering from the effects of a fatal disease, Tsukuyomi feedback and a serious leg injury.


Disease which he took medicine for? Tsukuyomi backlash and leg injury? Oh, it's so unfair if Itachi can get wounded in battle and has to deal with those consequences. If he tries to block a hit from Sage Mode Jiraiya and his leg splinters, then that's just not fair.



> And you clearly take what I say too literally when you point out Sasuke isn't looking at him. Or do you have the ability to see through lies with your eyes?


Because Itachi has any reason to be surprised by the katons except maybe...he's surprised by the katons.



> He wasn't able to do anything but try and evade his jutsu and was being exhausted by Itachi's attacks. I wouldn't rank that as terrible, just pretty poor. He was near helpless.


He'd also divided his chakra up into two bunshin to cover for Asuma and Kurenai. Yeah, that would have no ill effects on someone with low stamina.  He wasn't doing terrible at all and Itachi was not walking over him. 



> Or perhaps the Byakugan doesn't see through everything automatically? Perhaps you have to focus it and search?


When it's active, you sure as hell see through what's right there



> If not we have a serious contradiction on our hands.


Can't just give Itachi's opponent credit, right?




> Except nobody used a Kawarimi no Jutsu in front of Itachi and got away with it. Sasuke used Oral Rebirth as an advanced Kawarimi, which is just ever so slightly different.


How many people even tried a substitution with Itachi?
We have seen direct proof the Sharingan doesn't see them. and the Byakugan



Vergil642 said:


> Proof it breaks it? Itachi says this obviously won't work and ends the Genjutsu, because it's not going to work if it's not the real Kakashi.


We see the clone grabbing it as it ends, Itachi says he should've known his Genjutsu wouldn't work on Kakashi.
He only states 'it's a Kage Bunshin' when Kakashi gets out of the ground.
If he wanted to, he could've knocked out the clone with Genjutsu and gotten away easy.
Maybe the guy who spent three years and awakened an MS getting ready for round 2 might have improved.




> Gai not there=Itachi and Kisame have no reason to leave Kakashi and pals alive, there's nobody able to stop them and they can kill them and leave easily. Gai not there=Itachi has no excuse to leave them alive.


How about "We're not here for them, let's go."
Know who gave him his excuse? Kakashi. Instead, he chose to sitck around and fight until he ordered them dead.


> Gai there=obviously more dudes are coming and the first one there is pretty darn powerful. Gai there=Itachi has an excuse to leave and knows pursuit will not immediately occur as Gai has to see to his comrades.


Yeah, this ship kinda sailed by them sticking around when Kakashi showed up. That excuse worked fine then.



> Of course he was aware nobody was going to see him. It explains why he's willing to do all this and waste a Tsukuyomi; it's all a way to give himself plenty of excuses later when asked why he didn't capture the Kyuubi.


you know what this doesn't explain? Not fleeing when Kakashi even showed up.It doesn't explain Itachi's silent consent to Kisame maiming Naruto. In fact, Jiraiya had to save the kid when Kisame was swinging down at him



> As for Naruto, the fact Itachi used a very basic and obvious tactic to distract a Sannin of all people kinda indicates he was setting Jiraiya up. He can then say "I left the known womaniser a trap in the form of a Genjutsu'd chick but unfortunately he was able to overcome his normal urges and come inturrupt us and force us to flee. I didn't have the time to do much else either as Konohagakure had already been alerted to our presence when we schooled some of their top Jounin earlier."


So....he forced a fight with a guy stronger than the three he'd just fought, who Kisame acknowledged as his own superior, who Itachi acknowledged as possibly being able to kill both of them, who'd never let them go if at all possible.

Itachi forced a fight with him by 'setting it up.' To the EXACT SECOND? Never mind if not for Sasuke showing up, Naruto'd be maimed. 



> And yes, Itachi was probably willing to see Naruto lose his legs. He's willing to sacrifice the few for the greater good. He loves Konohagakure but if he has to he'll hurt their Shinobi to protect his cover.
> Then he was willing to utterly destroy Konoha's hope for the future and let Akatsuki's plans speed up.
> 
> Which country do you think Pain would've destroyed first?
> ...


----------



## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

> Perhaps it would be prudent to research or otherwise find out a bit about someone you're insulting before doing so; you might find an insult that makes a little more sense that way.


I've seen you've had nearly the exact same Itachi support as him, nearly the same debate style, that same crest and, oh yeah, the 'Nikushimi's successor' stuff.
Quite frankly. is there a reason I've been given to make me think you're more level than he is?




> Zetsu notes they haven't moved an inch before this, while Itachi is explaining Madara's background to Sasuke. They also, funnily enough, jump back to their original positions after clashing together.


And after the Shuriken spam, they're in one position. When it ends with the Tsukuyomi, they're still right there



> And the Taijutsu match was in Genjutsu.


My point




> .


So, he grabs Kakashi's bunshin, designed to trap him. This wasn't intentional how...?



> .
> 
> While we have this page linked up...note how Itachi says "I wouldn't expect you to be affected by the Genjutsu. This is a Kage Bunshin".


And a Kage Bunshin CAN be affected by Genjutsu.
He is giving Kakashi credit for breaking it. That he notes it's a bunshin only happens when Kakashi himself emerges



> It's plainly stating "I wouldn't expect you, the real Kakashi, to be affected by a Genjutsu I used on a Kage Bunshin."
> 
> offers more of the same. "That explains why my Genjutsu didn't work on you, I used it on a Kage Bunshin."
> So yeah, assuming KBs aren't immune to Genjutsu Itachi is pointing out "obviously this Genjutsu did shit to you, I didn't cast it on you."


This is blatant disregard of canon. A Kage Bunshin is a *genuine copy* of the person. They have their own chakra system, they're flesh and blood. 
A bunshin is not genjutsu resistant by virtue of BEING a bunshin. They have the same moves and vulnerabilities as the original.
the Bunshin canceled it out. If it can, Kakashi can



> Unless you believe Kakashi's Genjutsu breaking prowess is superior to Sasuke's, the KB didn't break it.


Both have fours in the Genjutsu stat.
We see the Bunshin being affected by the Genjutsu. It breaks it. Otherwise, it'd have dropped and not grabbed Itachi.



> Also, look above for why the Genjutsu didn't work on _Kakashi._ Protip: Because it _was not used on Kakashi._


Someone doesn't know how bunshins work.
Use it on Kakashi's bunshin and you've used it on Kakashi or might as well have.




> The KB was in a Genjutsu and thus unable to do anything in the real world. Itachi didn't have to hold on to the KB while it was trapped. It was utterly open and Itachi could do what he liked to it.


Except it didn't let go of Itachi and grabbed him to hold him when it was done.
Without MS, Itachi did all he could




> Yes, he did his best. Yet he was still discovered by Itachi and his KBs easily disposed of.


Because Naruto at that time was being subtle and stealthy.




> Still doesn't explain why Itachi didn't "sense" him or however Itachi does that whole "I know where you are exactly despite not looking at you" thing.


Which he displayed in what other instances?




> Look above for the explanation.


Refuted by virtue of the fact Kage Bunshins are exact flesh and blood copies.




> Ok, so let's say it's PnJ. That means Itachi's Shouten Clone's defeat at Kakashi and Naruto's hands can't be considered legit anymore as PnJ means he has an extra ability he didn't get to use then, something that would wildly change the outcome of the battle.


Or, y'know, the fact it was used once and never used ever again, including that Itachi didn't see Sasuke's katons coming through the ground he was on, implies that Itachi at least can't do that.



> Well, it would if he wanted to win anyway
> 
> And if that argument wasn't BS.
> 
> Show me when Deidara left a Clay Bunshin for Team Gai to fight. I'll wait.



Obviously after they attacked him. He thought first normally, evaded them all together, thinking there wasn't a way to escape. The only time he had to switch out was when he beelined for his bird.

Neji wasn't focusing? Please. Sasuke also failed to see his substitution.


----------



## Vergil642 (May 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, his backup was Kirin. Which is worthless if the opponent can fight back when you try setting it up



Are you kidding? Deidara was in a perfect position for Sasuke to sneakily set that up without him noticing. Sasuke uses Gouryuuka no Jutsu, Deidara dodges/might get hit by one, Deidara continues to bomb Sasuke while Sasuke loses another wing/summons a snake meatshield, Kirin is ready, Sasuke nukes him.



> Enough to dodge smaller, weaker bombs,
> and if his CS2 is so much faster than base, it shouldn't even matter that he can't maneuver as well if his speed is supposedly so much higher



Prove the bigger bomb was faster.

And the CS2 boost is clearly not enough to allow Sasuke to evade high speed bombs when there's mines covering the ground.



> And according to your argument he should be so fast it doesn't matter



I would expect Sasuke to be fast enough to do this, but clearly he isn't.



> Many static obstacles where you can see them. When we saw his flight speed was fast enough to evade a mine when he'd already stepped on it



Clearly the C2 bombs>the mines exploding in terms of speed.



> Begging the question.



So you agree, there's nothing that shows the C2 bomb can catch CS2 Sasuke when his mobility is unhindered.



> Prove the distance exactly. Or you have no point





Sasuke is 1.68m tall. He's in between Karin and Juugo so is the middle silhouette in the picture. As he's on his knees, let's say he's now about 1m tall. Measuring horizontally using the 1m-when-crouching Sasuke as a crude measuring stick, we can see that he's well over 10m from the Hachibi. Note that measuring it horizontally would make the distance longer (my paint-fu is weak), but nevertheless he's well over 10m away from a point just to the Hachibi's left.

There's no way he's within 5m of the Hachibi.



> Would you provide evidence they knew of Amaterasu before Sasuke's arrival?





 and points out Ei intends to oppose it by amping his speed up.

Now what could he intend to oppose that both Itachi and Sasuke, the two true MS users, have?



.

Call me crazy, but I'd bet that the Raikage will have the same intel as his subordinate in this respect and that his little brother, the most powerful man in Kumogakure after Ei, will have access to similar intel.



> According to you, Bee's at such a distance where he shouldn't be able to see Sasuke's eye.
> And he only reacted after Sasuke's eye was bleeding and 'AMATERASU' was written in big letters



Actually I'd be willing to bet Bee can see Sasuke's eye bleeding at such a distance. 

Incidentally are you telling me that Bee reacted to Amaterasu because he can break the fourth wall? Normally I would assume you aren't but it's getting to the point where I can't use normal assumptions with you.



> Which isn't that far from Itachi to begin with, point being?
> 
> But it did stop, before it exceeded its range



Point being it hit it's maximum range without showing any signs of slowing down.

So why should we assume it would have outright stopped if it hadn't hit the trees?

I should also point out that Goukakyuu no Jutsu has almost always simply been a big fireball that stays in front of the user in every other appearance. Itachi's was shot out as a projectile, meaning it won't necessarily follow the same rules.



> 'We know?' No, you think so. I'm trusting the author's word over an Uchiha fan who can't accept maybe they aren't unlimited.





I've just given you a number of examples of how the DB's ranges are extremely suspect. We know it because it's right in front of our eyes. Is it that hard to follow?



> Tsukuyomi is a different technique and an MS Genjuutsu besides. Your basic argument is "Other techniques exceed  its range."
> I shouldn't have to explain the flaw in that methodology.



Tsukuyomi falls under the umbrella term of Sharingan Genjutsu. Sharingan Genjutsu has exceeded it's stated range. Just as Kasegui no Jutsu is almost certainly capable of being used on someone further away than 5m, so too is Tsukuyomi.



> And with full knowledge, will he?
> And they can't see his eyes, he can see theirs. How would they perform the Genjutsu?



As long as the victim can see the eye Sharingan Genjutsu can be performed on them. This is what the manga and DB have shown us.



> And if they know? Stop dancing around the point.



Then it gets done unless they choose not to.



> Except Deidara has a Genjutsu seeing eye that makes his skill enough.



Prove it.



> No, I understand. It's just stupid. You're attempting to say since other techniques might exceed the DB's ranges, then it's fair to assume other techniques must with no proof



Tsukuyomi=type of Sharingan Genjutsu, which is an umbrella term for Genjutsu the Sharingan can cast=Sharingan Genjutsu has exceeded it's stated range.

Incidentally, why do you go from the word "might" to "must"? Most Jutsu in this manga can probably exceed their stated ranges. I can't say they all can because not all have shown indications they can.



> It takes some persistent stubbornness to cite something and *still get it wrong*.
> TN: Enton= flame element.
> Or 'Blaze Release' as it's translated some times. KAgutsuchi is a technique for it. Sasuke has managed to use the Amaterasu like this. That does not mean it is an MS technique that woke up like Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu.



Dear God...

You're literally ignoring everything being said by the characters and every other indication the manga gives us.

Kagatsuchi is an MS jutsu, Enton is similarly an MS related type of elemental recomposition (can't remember the proper term). As Katons are jutsu that manipulate flames, Suitons are jutsu that manipulate water, Entons are jutsu that manipulate Amaterasu's black flames.

If Enton: Kagatsuchi is not an MS jutsu then are you saying that anyone can potentially learn it? Despite the fact it's blindingly obvious Kagatsuchi is utilised via Sasuke's right _Mangekyou Sharingan eye?_


----------



## Vergil642 (May 28, 2010)

> No, the 'Enton' is the manipulation. Kagutsuchi is just the same of the specific thing he was using right there.,
> And Sasuke has demonstrated the ability to make Tsukuyomi appear real as well. See, the Danzo fight.
> 
> Either way, the databook is clear: Susanoo is only accessible when one has both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu both. We have seen Sasuke has the two of them. If he has other techniques as well, that's just ducky.



Enton=Blaze Release. Kagatsuchi=the technique.
Katon=Fire Release. Goukakyuu no Jutsu=the technique.

My point concerning Tsukuyomi is that you can't compare them by saying they look alike. Basic Sharingan Genjutsu looks the same as Sasuke's MS Genjutsu. The reason he does not have Tsukuyomi is because Tsukuyomi gives you control over everything the opponent experiences and is over within a second in real time but can last days to the victim. Sasuke's MS Genjutsu has not displayed these properties so it cannot be called Tsukuyomi.

And the DB is clear that Susanoo possesses the Sword of Totsuka and-oh wait, Sasuke's doesn't.



> he is talking Tsukuyomi specifically. Know any other MS Genjutsu that damages your eye, btw?



No, but I didn't know of any MS jutsu that allows you to pyrokinetically manipulate Amaterasu's flames, nor any MS jutsu that allows you to summon a giant chakra construct to fight for you.

Then the manga showed me these things.



> Because all Genjutsu are the same. Utakata's range must be wrong then, too!
> No. Show me Tsukuyomi exceeding its range. From beyond that, Itachi may not be able to focus eye contact.
> You do not get to decide the databook is wrong on a simple fact when it hurts your point unless there is a direct contradiction



Yeah, it probably is considering all you have to do is see his finger.



Lightysnake said:


> Would it be too much to ask that someone who can't even use a comma correctly stop the condescension?



Goodness, would it be too much to ask that someone who cannot use capital letters correctly to stop acting as if he's correct without question?



> Eight snakes at once, when Orochimaru had emerged AS that? Itachi said he knew it as the Yamata.



Yes, we're debating how Itachi knew what it was. How he sensed it and determined it was Yamata no Jutsu and not just a bunch of giant snakes.



> Yeah, 'acting.' "Kill Kurenai and Asuma and-hey, it's Gai, wasn't expecting that!"
> Itachi: It's okay, I was going to murder you! And that I forever traumatized Sasuke and was totally responsible for him going to Orochimaru! I was ACTING!
> I love how willing everyone is to totally forget the horrible things he did and just gloss over the idea he MIGHT have been something short of an invincible God because...acting!
> He showed visible surprise on a number of occasions. He's not infallible and can lose fights. Get over it.



You seem to have, again, not got my argument.

Before Gai appears Itachi is playing his part, in his evil persona he has literally no reason to let Kakashi and co live now they've shown knowledge, even a little, of Akatsuki.

Then Gai shows up. Suddenly a powerful foe appears who has trained to fight the Sharingan. Itachi can and does use this and the fact more dudes will soon arrive to get himself and Kisame out of there.

Of course Itachi's evil. His actions are what makes him evil. Nobody's denying this. I'm not anyway. I should point out that I outright said "he'd probably let Naruto's legs get cut off if he needed to".



> Zetsu elaborated, talking about his speed and speed alone.



.

Zetsu: "Itachi should've been _much stronger than this_." Despite having never seen Amaterasu or Susanoo, Zetsu thinks this was weaker than what Itachi should have been. This could just be his opinion however, so let's move on and see what else we have.

Zetsu: "He wasn't moving or attacking normally, and you even said something seemed wrong with him, remember?" Itachi wasn't just not moving normally, but his attacks weren't normal either. Funny that, comparing it to when he first faced Kakashi the difference is immediate and striking.

Zetsu: "He was hit by attacks he should have dodged easily and was coughing up blood throughout the fight." Well this is obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. Zetsu says Itachi was performing poorly and should have dodged attacks he didn't (read: all two of them) and coughing up blood throughout the fight=something's seriously wrong with him.

Zetsu: "Maybe he'd already been _badly wounded_ before Sasuke even arrived?" Again, obvious. Zetsu's trying to explain to himself why Itachi performed so poorly. The best explanation he comes up with is Itachi is severely injured.

In fact, you seem right to an extent. Zetsu mind was blown by Amaterasu and Susanoo. He nevertheless believed Itachi performed badly, mainly before this, to the point he thought Itachi was seriously injured. I'll speak plainly: Zetsu felt that everything Itachi did sans MS use was not up to Itachi's normal standards.

Considering the only problem he'll have against Deidara is his illness, that's not all that bad considering he only received injuries against Sasuke when in mid air, suffering Tsukuyomi feedback and later suffering from the effects of Amaterasu, being blind in one eye and having a serious leg wound to boot.



> Disease which he took medicine for? Tsukuyomi backlash and leg injury? Oh, it's so unfair if Itachi can get wounded in battle and has to deal with those consequences. If he tries to block a hit from Sage Mode Jiraiya and his leg splinters, then that's just not fair.



Of course it isn't fair to assess Itachi's evasive ability based on how he fares when suffering from extra injuries and drawbacks to what he normally has.

Itachi is very unlikely to have been hit in the leg if he wasn't suffering Tsukuyomi feedback and if he wasn't in mid-air at the time (seriously, how is he dodging something in mid-air when he can't fly?). 



> Because Itachi has any reason to be surprised by the katons except maybe...he's surprised by the katons.



Or he's not surprised and is thinking "goddammit I'm about to be hit again".



> He'd also divided his chakra up into two bunshin to cover for Asuma and Kurenai. Yeah, that would have no ill effects on someone with low stamina.  He wasn't doing terrible at all and Itachi was not walking over him.



One Kage Bunshin, one Mizu Bunshin. And the Mizu Bunshin was necessary because Itachi was pushing him so hard.

Wait a second. If you think Kakashi performed terribly against Itachi preskip, why is it you can accept Kakashi not getting schooled again post skip when he hasn't got any stats boost and doesn't use any new jutsu in the fight? How can you accept this as totally rational and believable and find it reasonable to assess that Itachi can or can't do things when he performs so poorly without any explanation?



> When it's active, you sure as hell see through what's right there



Or you have to focus a little. Or when focusing on an Akatsuki you tend to miss things.

And we know the Byakugan is far from infallible. Neji showed this when he failed to count the correct number of birds in his preskip training. He's clearly better at using the Byakugan now, but this shows it doesn't magically and immediately see everything and does require some focus to use.



> Can't just give Itachi's opponent credit, right?



I'm talking about how Neji, according to you, can't see Deidara despite being able to SEE EVERYTHING when the Byakugan's active.

And I'm saying that Neji _can't_ see everything automatically with the Byakugan active and instead has to actually focus on doing so.



> How many people even tried a substitution with Itachi?
> We have seen direct proof the Sharingan doesn't see them. and the Byakugan



Zero. No wait, Sasuke.

You are still confusing a Kage Bunshin with a substitution technique. You can combine the two, but they remain seperate jutsu.



> We see the clone grabbing it as it ends, Itachi says he should've known his Genjutsu wouldn't work on Kakashi.
> -snip-improved.



Responding to this is pointless as you argue the point a little further down.


----------



## Vergil642 (May 28, 2010)

> How about "We're not here for them, let's go."
> Know who gave him his excuse? Kakashi. Instead, he chose to sitck around and fight until he ordered them dead.
> 
> Yeah, this ship kinda sailed by them sticking around when Kakashi showed up. That excuse worked fine then.



Itachi was there to put the fear of him into Danzou. Kicking Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai's asses would do this very well. Similarly, being able to take out the three of them in a couple of minutes, Kisame and Itachi fleeing would make no sense. Not least because the Konoha trio could easily follow them while sounding the alarm, drawing more to them and increasing the odds they get hurt, which is kind of something Itachi's trying to avoid.



> you know what this doesn't explain? Not fleeing when Kakashi even showed up.It doesn't explain Itachi's silent consent to Kisame maiming Naruto. In fact, Jiraiya had to save the kid when Kisame was swinging down at him



See above, and below in fact.



> So....he forced a fight with a guy stronger than the three he'd just fought, who Kisame acknowledged as his own superior, who Itachi acknowledged as possibly being able to kill both of them, who'd never let them go if at all possible.



Yes. The entire point would be that Jiraiya shows up to prevent them actually taking Naruto, so that Akatsuki doesn't get the Kyuubi.

The entire point of using Jiraiya is _because them running from a Sannin would appear reasonable and believable_. And hey, seems like it worked as Akatsuki didn't suspect Itachi of anything treacherous at all.



> Itachi forced a fight with him by 'setting it up.' To the EXACT SECOND? Never mind if not for Sasuke showing up, Naruto'd be maimed.



Itachi's clearly ok with Naruto being maimed if need be.



> Then he was willing to utterly destroy Konoha's hope for the future and let Akatsuki's plans speed up.
> 
> Which country do you think Pain would've destroyed first?



I'm sorry, but how does Naruto being maimed=ZOMG SPEEDING UP AKATSUKI'S PLANS!

If Itachi and Kisame took Naruto, it'd be bad. If they maimed him, Jiraiya showed up and they fled without him, that'd be totally cool.



> Itachi's excuses tended to come about from sheer freaking luck. And he wasn't there for the village, he was there to be spotted, in other words, provoking a fight, to warn danzo. Against Sasuke. Who Danzo *displayed no intention of hostility towards since the massacre until Sasuke betrayed Konoha*.
> Bang up fucking job, Itachi. Oh, and let's also discuss the absolute stupidity of what he did to Sasuke who had the CURSED SEAL on him. Gee, what could THAT mean. Think maybe pressing him to abandon morality for power is a bad idea when Orochimaru's been around?



Yeah, because Danzou's clearly a trustworthy guy. Y'know, the one with a thing against Uchiha's who believes it's fine to kill every single one of them to prevent a coup his own prejudices sparked off.

And hey, funnily enough Itachi foresaw Sasuke turning evil. Remember the crowjob? Itachi planning ahead and using Naruto as his tool to stop Sasuke if the need occurs.



> Just 'a few things' otherwise would mean that yes, you are quite similar.
> and all I know, is you've been acting like him here. Same overrating of Itachi, downplaying of anyone not Itachi, and being utterly condescending to anyone who dares question Itachi



In all fairness, I tend to be condesending only to those who, shall we say, are not able to debate in a friendly manner. Niku tends to use hyperbole and a bombastic style for emphasis and laughs, I'm just rubbish at that so I play it a little cooler 



Lightysnake said:


> I've seen you've had nearly the exact same Itachi support as him, nearly the same debate style, that same crest and, oh yeah, the 'Nikushimi's successor' stuff.
> Quite frankly. is there a reason I've been given to make me think you're more level than he is?



Heh, the same debate style. I suppose we do use the English language and in Itachi threads tend to side with him. There's tons of similarities, totally.

And yes, there is a reason. I tend to be more open and give credit to those I debate, more easily swayed. Look above, I even give you credit here or there. It's just rare you earn it 



> And after the Shuriken spam, they're in one position. When it ends with the Tsukuyomi, they're still right there



Yes. Do you want to address the DB and eye close up point now?



> My point



I'm sorry but I've lost what your point here amongst endless debates that go round in circles.



> So, he grabs Kakashi's bunshin, designed to trap him. This wasn't intentional how...?



He grabs the KB, puts it in Genjutsu and thus _forces an opening on it._ Yet he doesn't exploit said opening. Why?



> And a Kage Bunshin CAN be affected by Genjutsu.
> He is giving Kakashi credit for breaking it. That he notes it's a bunshin only happens when Kakashi himself emerges



Says you. Itachi is already talking when Kakashi appears, before which Itachi is already pointing out "oh hey, this Genjutsu won't affect you if I don't use it on you."



> This is blatant disregard of canon. A Kage Bunshin is a *genuine copy* of the person. They have their own chakra system, they're flesh and blood.
> A bunshin is not genjutsu resistant by virtue of BEING a bunshin. They have the same moves and vulnerabilities as the original.
> the Bunshin canceled it out. If it can, Kakashi can



Prove the KB broke the Genjutsu and Itachi didn't release it when he saw it was pointless.

Also, there's the matter of how a KB thinks. It doesn't necessarily receive mental damage as a normal person does as it isn't a normal person. It probably does, but it's something that isn't flatly pointed out.



> Both have fours in the Genjutsu stat.
> We see the Bunshin being affected by the Genjutsu. It breaks it. Otherwise, it'd have dropped and not grabbed Itachi.



And Sasuke barely breaks a layer of Itachi's Genjutsu after nearly a full chapter. He's also trained directly to defeat Itachi.

Why should Kakashi be able to break a Genjutsu so easily?



> Someone doesn't know how bunshins work.
> Use it on Kakashi's bunshin and you've used it on Kakashi or might as well have.



Again you fail to understand what I'm saying.

Itachi does not use the Genjutsu on Kakashi. Therefore the real Kakashi is not affected by the Genjutsu.

I'm not sure if I can make my point any more obvious.



> Except it didn't let go of Itachi and grabbed him to hold him when it was done.
> Without MS, Itachi did all he could



The KB wasn't grabbing Itachi until after the Genjutsu. When in the Genjutsu the KB was completely open to any attack Itachi wanted to make. Itachi chose not to make an attack.

What does that tell you?



> Because Naruto at that time was being subtle and stealthy.



And not in the forest when hiding from Itachi?



> Which he displayed in what other instances?



When he detected kid Sasuke despite his Jounin parents failing to do so, when he was able to hit the targets in the bullls eye despite being upside down, spinning around and having his eyes closed and when he was able to detect exactly what jutsu Orochimaru was using just before wtfpwning him.



> Or, y'know, the fact it was used once and never used ever again, including that Itachi didn't see Sasuke's katons coming through the ground he was on, implies that Itachi at least can't do that.





Looks to me like he saw it coming, dodged but couldn't do much moving as he had a hugeass leg injury, his disease was affecting him more and he was suffering from using Amaterasu, putting an excess strain on himself quite recently.



> Obviously after they attacked him. He thought first normally, evaded them all together, thinking there wasn't a way to escape. The only time he had to switch out was when he beelined for his bird.
> 
> Neji wasn't focusing? Please. Sasuke also failed to see his substitution.



Which would mean Neji wouldn't look for him as he just saw him explode. Sharingan can't see chakra through other chakra, we know this, hence why Sasuke couldn't see Deidara inside the clay bird.


----------



## justarandomguy (May 28, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Enton=Blaze Release. Kagatsuchi=the technique.
> Katon=Fire Release. Goukakyuu no Jutsu=the technique.
> 
> My point concerning Tsukuyomi is that you can't compare them by saying they look alike. Basic Sharingan Genjutsu looks the same as Sasuke's MS Genjutsu. The reason he does not have Tsukuyomi is because Tsukuyomi gives you control over everything the opponent experiences and is over within a second in real time but can last days to the victim. Sasuke's MS Genjutsu has not displayed these properties so it cannot be called Tsukuyomi.
> ...



first of all, sasuke's tsukuyomi is just not complete. even so, it is still tsukuyomi:


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## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Enton=Blaze Release. Kagatsuchi=the technique.
> Katon=Fire Release. Goukakyuu no Jutsu=the technique.


Kagutsuchi is the technique. It is, however, a technique of the Enton. There should be other Enton techniques. Enton is the flame manipulation, after all



> My point concerning Tsukuyomi is that you can't compare them by saying they look alike. Basic Sharingan Genjutsu looks the same as Sasuke's MS Genjutsu. The reason he does not have Tsukuyomi is because Tsukuyomi gives you control over everything the opponent experiences and is over within a second in real time but can last days to the victim. Sasuke's MS Genjutsu has not displayed these properties so it cannot be called Tsukuyomi.


It hasn't because it's inferior to Itachi's as *Danzo expressly states*. Itachi's Amaterasu is inferior to Sasuke's as he can't manipulate the flames to the degree Sasuke can. 
The databook says directly to use Susanoo, you NEED Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. 



> And the DB is clear that Susanoo possesses the Sword of Totsuka and-oh wait, Sasuke's doesn't.


Yeah, you notice Sasuke's isn't even complete? We saw it using a sword in its skeletal form, we see it has a shield similar in design to Yata's Mirror doubling as the bow...we saw at the conclusion of all that when he freaked our against Kakashi, it gained the armor.
Ergo, why should you write it off if he never had his final, complete Susanoo in combat?




> No, but I didn't know of any MS jutsu that allows you to pyrokinetically manipulate Amaterasu's flames, nor any MS jutsu that allows you to summon a giant chakra construct to fight for you.



Itachi was manipulating the flames to chase Sasuke. He just wasn't able to do it to the degree Sasuke could



> Then the manga showed me these things.



And nothing contradicts the point. Unless it's ever expressly said Sasuke lacks Tsukuyomi when he's indicated otherwise...



> Yeah, it probably is considering all you have to do is see his finger.


"I decide when official sources are wrong! Me!"




> Goodness, would it be too much to ask that someone who cannot use capital letters correctly to stop acting as if he's correct without question?


There. Was proper grammar so hard?



> Yes, we're debating how Itachi knew what it was. How he sensed it and determined it was Yamata no Jutsu and not just a bunch of giant snakes.


Presumably the giant size and eight roars at once would give it away.




> You seem to have, again, not got my argument.
> 
> Before Gai appears Itachi is playing his part, in his evil persona he has literally no reason to let Kakashi and co live now they've shown knowledge, even a little, of Akatsuki.


And when Kakashi *first showed up?*
He could even have used ASUMA as the excuse, given Asuma was taking on Kisame and doing fine.



> Then Gai shows up. Suddenly a powerful foe appears who has trained to fight the Sharingan. Itachi can and does use this and the fact more dudes will soon arrive to get himself and Kisame out of there.


And when a guy with the Sharingan showed up, Itachi tried to outright murder him. He did not take THAT chance to escape. The first thing he did was plunge a kunai into Kakashi's back after a brief chat...then try to cripple him...then try to blow him up. 



> Of course Itachi's evil. His actions are what makes him evil. Nobody's denying this. I'm not anyway. I should point out that I outright said "he'd probably let Naruto's legs get cut off if he needed to".


You're not? Okay then. Because Nikushimi and others have argued that Itachi died for your sins and that everything he did was perfectly moral, etc.




> .
> 
> Zetsu: "Itachi should've been _much stronger than this_." Despite having never seen Amaterasu or Susanoo, Zetsu thinks this was weaker than what Itachi should have been. This could just be his opinion however, so let's move on and see what else we have.


I think you're confusing 'strength of jutsu.' Zetsu had never seen Amaterasu or Susanoo before, what was he basing knowledge of them on?



> Zetsu: "He wasn't moving or attacking normally, and you even said something seemed wrong with him, remember?" Itachi wasn't just not moving normally, but his attacks weren't normal either. Funny that, comparing it to when he first faced Kakashi the difference is immediate and striking.


His physical attacks, yes. The only one we can judge as actual physical attacks are his fireballs and the Sharingans, however.



> Zetsu: "He was hit by attacks he should have dodged easily and was coughing up blood throughout the fight." Well this is obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. Zetsu says Itachi was performing poorly and should have dodged attacks he didn't (read: all two of them) and coughing up blood throughout the fight=something's seriously wrong with him.


The only one referred to is the shadow shuriken and I do not deny he should've dodged that. The katons he was hit by when he was basically out of chakra and barely able to stand for lack of stamina.
It's also a fact Itachi's stamina is plain bad. He cannot afford to spam moves like Sasuke.



> Zetsu: "Maybe he'd already been _badly wounded_ before Sasuke even arrived?" Again, obvious. Zetsu's trying to explain to himself why Itachi performed so poorly. The best explanation he comes up with is Itachi is severely injured.


The black half-generally the smart one- thinks the issues come from overuse of Sharingan. Yes, we know Itachi was sick and it inhibited his performance. However, nothing indicates Itachi's usual performance would be so incredible as to outright own everybody. His databook stats list him well enough and they're what we have to go by. He's apparently of equal speed with Gai, of average physical strength, with unsurpassed handseals, Genjutsu and terrible stamina. 
The only time Zetsu noted something was off was the shuriken nailing Itachi's leg. Unless he intended that to happen? Well, then...his disease only started truly acting up after he used Susanoo. 
And then again, there's the tiny yet ever so significant detail of Itachi's vision being nearly dead in the fight.



> In fact, you seem right to an extent. Zetsu mind was blown by Amaterasu and Susanoo. He nevertheless believed Itachi performed badly, mainly before this, to the point he thought Itachi was seriously injured. I'll speak plainly: Zetsu felt that everything Itachi did sans MS use was not up to Itachi's normal standards.


Yes, and by how much? Have a measuring stick? If not, then stop implying Itachi would just destroy everyone else without going to MS because without it, he has displayed so utterly little that is special in the least by way of ninjutsu. His speed has been kept up with by others and some have equal or better feats than him.



> Considering the only problem he'll have against Deidara is his illness, that's not all that bad considering he only received injuries against Sasuke when in mid air, suffering Tsukuyomi feedback and later suffering from the effects of Amaterasu, being blind in one eye and having a serious leg wound to boot.


And it's just a shame that *Deidara fights totally different than Sasuke and uses totally different attacks while remaining out of reach and knows everything about him*.
It's just a shame that *Deidara developed an attack capable of killing him that his poor sight really hurts on*




> Of course it isn't fair to assess Itachi's evasive ability based on how he fares when suffering from extra injuries and drawbacks to what he normally has.[/Quot]e
> Boo hoo. Give me evidence of him fighting Orosuke when he's at normal.
> There's also no evidence he was suffering this badly when his clone was fighting Kakashi. Hell, no evidence his disease even transferred there.
> And three years ago, what were Itachi's feelings on fighting Jiraiya with Kisame? "He could kill both of us. We might be able to take him as well.."
> ...


----------



## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

> Or he's not surprised and is thinking "goddammit I'm about to be hit again".


No, that's an exclamation point over his head and he dodged them save for one that burnt his arm.




> One Kage Bunshin, one Mizu Bunshin. And the Mizu Bunshin was necessary because Itachi was pushing him so hard.


He made two. Itachi dispatched the mizu bunshin. Plus that rather draining water dragon bullet to intercept Kisame's. And even using the Sharingan was incredibly draining for Kakashi then, as he said. When he had the Bunshin in, he himself hadn't shown up.
so, Kakashi kind of even began on a third of his chakra....



> Wait a second. If you think Kakashi performed terribly against Itachi preskip, why is it you can accept Kakashi not getting schooled again post skip when he hasn't got any stats boost and doesn't use any new jutsu in the fight? How can you accept this as totally rational and believable and find it reasonable to assess that Itachi can or can't do things when he performs so poorly without any explanation?


I have not seen any reasonable evidence that Kakashi's stats suddenly jumped by the next day or two. In their second fight:
A. Kakashi had MS.
B. Kakashi likely would've trained against Genjutsu tactics.
C. Kakashi readied himself against Itachi's fighting style. 
Itachi also wasn't performing poorly against Kakashi. They showed themselves on par in CQC. And Kakashi never used his MS either. And quite frankly, Itachi has no defense for Kamui. And Kakashi seems more inclined to use it these days as he tried to outright kill Madara with it. 





> Or you have to focus a little. Or when focusing on an Akatsuki you tend to miss things.
> 
> And we know the Byakugan is far from infallible. Neji showed this when he failed to count the correct number of birds in his preskip training. He's clearly better at using the Byakugan now, but this shows it doesn't magically and immediately see everything and does require some focus to use.


So when Deidara was dodging all of of them and weaving between trees to escape, Neji wasn't focusing at all? He was sure as hell focusing on Deidara. Hell, they FOUND HIM by Neji focusing on him, judging by Gai's whole "Good work, Neji!" So, Neji had a lock. 




> I'm talking about how Neji, according to you, can't see Deidara despite being able to SEE EVERYTHING when the Byakugan's active.


No, I'm using it as a point that a Dojutsu much better at seeing through things and chakra, etc was not able to see Deidara's substitution. 



> And I'm saying that Neji _can't_ see everything automatically with the Byakugan active and instead has to actually focus on doing so.


Like he was already doing on Deidara.




> Zero. No wait, Sasuke.
> 
> You are still confusing a Kage Bunshin with a substitution technique. You can combine the two, but they remain seperate jutsu.


Sasuke used Oral Creation rebirth. That's a different technique and you know it.
And Deidara substituted out with a clay clone. His bunshins are different




Vergil642 said:


> Itachi was there to put the fear of him into Danzou. Kicking Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai's asses would do this very well. Similarly, being able to take out the three of them in a couple of minutes, Kisame and Itachi fleeing would make no sense. Not least because the Konoha trio could easily follow them while sounding the alarm, drawing more to them and increasing the odds they get hurt, which is kind of something Itachi's trying to avoid.


So he WAS planning to kill them? Think Kisame would've let them alive when the fight was done? Kakashi just showing up gave Itachi a perfect chance to run.
Know what they could've done?
A. When contemplating fighting Jiraiya, Kisame visibly admits Jiraiya is his own superior. Itachi concurs and says Jiraiya can kill the both of them at maybe the cost of his own life at his level.
B. Instead of using this chance to just leave as Naruto is too well guarded, it is ITACHI who comes up with the bright idea on how to separate Jiraiya from Naruto, which has the result of them nearly nabbing Naruto. And they would have if not for Sasuke. Itachi could not possibly have predicted that Aoba would accidentally inform Sasuke he was there and Sasuke could arrive at that second
C. Madara states Itachi's PRESENCE was enough. It was to let Danzo know "I'm still alive." Fighting wasn't necessary. Danzo wasn't scared of Itachi's combat abilities, especially as Danzo's one of a handful of people who could fight Itachi and win. What he was worried of was the possibility of Itachi betraying Konoha's secrets and likely Danzo's own. 



> Yes. The entire point would be that Jiraiya shows up to prevent them actually taking Naruto, so that Akatsuki doesn't get the Kyuubi.


And later, Itachi randomly puts off looking for the Kyuubi as Naruto needs to be sealed last, so they can wait until everyone else is done. They didn't need to get Naruto yet. Itachi was there solely for selfish reasons and plain didn't give a flying fuck who had to die for it. Jiraiya was DELAYED and Itachi couldn't predict he'd see through the ruse. If not for Sasuke, what would've happened? The next time Akatsuki arrives, Naruto cannot fight back.
And Itachi wasn't even sure if he could take Jiraiya. He was forced to use Amaterasu to escape there.



> The entire point of using Jiraiya is _because them running from a Sannin would appear reasonable and believable_. And hey, seems like it worked as Akatsuki didn't suspect Itachi of anything treacherous at all.[/Quot]e
> 
> How about leaving Konoha after they saw Naruto was being guarded by Jiraiya. Akatsuki isn't exactly known for harsh punishment of members. Deidara didn't bring back Naruto. Was he punished at all? And Madara knew why Itachi was there. He knew everything. If he just told Pain, on a whim, what Itachi was really up to, do you think Itachi could've survived Pain coming for him? Kisame was hardly bothered by his death and it's unlikely he'd raise a finger in his defense.
> 
> ...


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## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

> Heh, the same debate style. I suppose we do use the English language and in Itachi threads tend to side with him. There's tons of similarities, totally.


I could name others.



> And yes, there is a reason. I tend to be more open and give credit to those I debate, more easily swayed. Look above, I even give you credit here or there. It's just rare you earn it


Well, giving credit to the opponent on anything would be enough to set you apart, you have me there



> Yes. Do you want to address the DB and eye close up point now?


Which point are we referring to?




> I'm sorry but I've lost what your point here amongst endless debates that go round in circles.
> 
> 
> He grabs the KB, puts it in Genjutsu and thus _forces an opening on it._ Yet he doesn't exploit said opening. Why?


What 'opening?' His hands were still busy. Putting him in Genjutsu did not free his hands, given how instant Itachi's Genjutsu seems to be. He still has to hold Kakashi in place.




> Says you. Itachi is already talking when Kakashi appears, before which Itachi is already pointing out "oh hey, this Genjutsu won't affect you if I don't use it on you."


You don't get it. This isn't how Kage Bunshin work. 

Here is the explanation: You make an actual, human clone. IE: it has its own chakra system. 
Also, notice what Kakashi says: whatever they experience, returns to the user when dispelled. If it dispersed, Kakashi would just experience the genjutsu anyways. Any pain, likely.



> Prove the KB broke the Genjutsu and Itachi didn't release it when he saw it was pointless.


This is moving the goalposts again. Itachi credits it with that and Kakashi is seizing it as the genjutsu ends. 
Look at the art there:
It closes up on Kakashi's Sharingan...THEN the Genjutsu is shown ending.  If Itachi just ended it, why the weird effect, close up on the Sharingan, why say he wouldn't expect Genjutsu to work on him?
The fact is Bunshins can be hit with Genjutsu



> Also, there's the matter of how a KB thinks. It doesn't necessarily receive mental damage as a normal person does as it isn't a normal person. It probably does, but it's something that isn't flatly pointed out.


This isn't a Tsukuyomi being used here. We've seen they CAN be put under Genjutsu. We see it IN the Genjutsu, burning up. Then we close up on Kakashi's Sharingan and...




> And Sasuke barely breaks a layer of Itachi's Genjutsu after nearly a full chapter. He's also trained directly to defeat Itachi.


Was he even really trying there? Didn't Zetsu point out neither had moved, meaning they just kept nailing one another with it?



> Why should Kakashi be able to break a Genjutsu so easily?


Kakashi and Sasuke have the same Genjutsu stat. Kakashi, however, is smarter and has more direct experience with Itachi when he was already an experienced fighter.
And possibly his MS. 




> Again you fail to understand what I'm saying.
> 
> Itachi does not use the Genjutsu on Kakashi. Therefore the real Kakashi is not affected by the Genjutsu.
> 
> I'm not sure if I can make my point any more obvious.


But he did. Kakashi's bunshin IS Kakashi. It's a perfect clone




> The KB wasn't grabbing Itachi until after the Genjutsu. When in the Genjutsu the KB was completely open to any attack Itachi wanted to make. Itachi chose not to make an attack.


His hands were only free in the Genjutsu. He still had to hold Kakashi. That's also not really how Genjutsu works. If they break it, well, that's just it.



> What does that tell you?


That Itachi's hands were occupied as we saw before it ended?




> And not in the forest when hiding from Itachi?


Again, Naruto is nowhere near as stealthy as Kakashi using Headhunter




> When he detected kid Sasuke despite his Jounin parents failing to do so, when he was able to hit the targets in the bullls eye despite being upside down, spinning around and having his eyes closed and when he was able to detect exactly what jutsu Orochimaru was using just before wtfpwning him.


again, I'm hardly going to deny Itachi has top notch senses, but none of this compares to detecting Konoha's strongest jounin using his prime stealth jutsu.
And he'd quite obviously seen/felt/heard the Yamata no Oro before. He says as much




> Looks to me like he saw it coming, dodged but couldn't do much moving as he had a hugeass leg injury, his disease was affecting him more and he was suffering from using Amaterasu, putting an excess strain on himself quite recently.


He was still surprised by it. Yes, he could react and I won't claim if Sasuke tried it at another juncture in the fight it would've worked, but it surprised him and burned him.




> Which would mean Neji wouldn't look for him as he just saw him explode. Sharingan can't see chakra through other chakra, we know this, hence why Sasuke couldn't see Deidara inside the clay bird.



Neji was locked on him BEFORE that. And The Sharingan has never, again, seen things underground.


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## Nikushimi (May 30, 2010)

Just because I think it's worth mentioning, despite the fact that he had the elemental advantage, Hebi Sasuke proved that he was capable of fighting on Deidara's level, and claimed to have a backup plan in case nullifying Deidara's Doton bombs with his Raiton attacks wasn't possible (most likely Manda or Kirin, though I doubt the effectiveness of the former against Deidara and I can't see how he could have set up the latter).

Itachi beat Hebi Sasuke, AND Orochimaru in his ultimate form, while terminally-ill, almost blind, and after jobbing for the entire fight. And Zetsu did state that his exhibition was significantly under par compared to what he usually can do.

So Itachi is leaps and bounds above Deidara. It's not very close...


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## Lightysnake (May 30, 2010)

Oh, right, Kirin. You mean the one he'd have to set up on little chakra and needs a psychotic amount of prep and luck and necessitates that your opponent can't attack you during any of it.

Great plan, Sauce.


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## Nikushimi (May 30, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, right, Kirin. You mean the one he'd have to set up on little chakra and needs a psychotic amount of prep and luck and necessitates that your opponent can't attack you during any of it.
> 
> Great plan, Sauce.



I never said it was practical OR plausible, just that it was possible. This is Sasuke we're talking about; after what he pulled to escape CO, I don't think I could honestly discount any possibilities concerning what he can do anymore. Doesn't mean I don't think such outlandish things are bullshit, but, Sasuke will be Sasuke irrespective of my approval. That's how it's been, that's how it's likely to stay.


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## Lightysnake (May 30, 2010)

It's more possible that Deidara could've used C3 and blown Sasuke to kingdom come. It's possible he could've detonated his C4 right off without pausing to gloat. 

So, Sasuke had only one nagashi left in him, no katons which would be useless here. The mechanics of the move of Kirin shown later on, mean it would not work here and Sasuke was just being a dick like he was when he deactivated his Sharingan.


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## Nikushimi (May 30, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> It's more possible that Deidara could've used C3 and blown Sasuke to kingdom come. It's possible he could've detonated his C4 right off without pausing to gloat.



Evidently C3 wasn't viable, or Deidara simply didn't come with it prepped. Don't see the point of Deidara detonating C4 early; Sasuke didn't inhale it the first time, and he quickly nullified it the second time.



> So, Sasuke had only one nagashi left in him, no katons which would be useless here. The mechanics of the move of Kirin shown later on, mean it would not work here and Sasuke was just being a dick like he was when he deactivated his Sharingan.



He evidently had enough chakra left to Kuchiyose Manda as well. And even that didn't push him to the point of exhaustion where Orochimaru emerged. So yeah...like I said, I wouldn't immediately jump to doubting Sasuke. That just tends to lead to epic disappointment when you should've known better.


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## Lightysnake (May 30, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Evidently C3 wasn't viable, or Deidara simply didn't come with it prepped. Don't see the point of Deidara detonating C4 early; Sasuke didn't inhale it the first time, and he quickly nullified it the second time.



You really aren't that honest when it comes to anyone with the Uchiha surname

C3 wasn't viable because of Tobi. And Deidara can make it whenever he wants.
Deidara had Sasuke trapped in C4 as well the second time. If he hadn't stayed on the clay Deidara to gloat and just detonated it, Sasuke would have died. Especially as we centered in on it after with Sasuke, still caught, looking at himself and then saying he now understood it. THEN he tore out. Deidara detonated first, Sasuke was dead



> He evidently had enough chakra left to Kuchiyose Manda as well. And even that didn't push him to the point of exhaustion where Orochimaru emerged. So yeah...like I said, I wouldn't immediately jump to doubting Sasuke. That just tends to lead to epic disappointment when you should've known better.


He didn't have the chakra to stand up. It was stated clearly he was out and Manda was apparently summoned via more to do with a scroll than anything else. 

Never mind the other little stupidities Sasuke pulled out via magic, teleporting Sharingans, sharingan seeing through solid rock, etc


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