# Base Hashirama vs Prime Nagato



## CoockiesAndMilf (May 5, 2013)

*Location* - Konoha Ruins

*Distance* - 50 meters

*Knowledge* - Manga

*Restrictions* - Shinsuusenju (If Hashi can even use it without SM), Gedo Mazo doesn't have any Bijuu sealed in it.

*Who wins?*


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## Sans (May 5, 2013)

Hashirama stomps.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

Hashirama wins via Bijuudama-catching/tanking Mokuton spam. Even without Shinsuusenju, he can still produce more Mokuton than Nagato can reasonably be expected to deal with.


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## Kai (May 5, 2013)

Mokuton: Kajukai Korin (Advent World of Flowering Trees) and its flower pollen along with Mokuton Dragon pretty much leave Nagato nowhere to go.

And no, I don't believe Preta Path will absorb Mokuton for the same reason I don't believe Preta Path would absorb Kabuto's Muki Tensei. Nevertheless the sheer force behind Hashirama's attacks would force Nagato to counter with similar force or escape.

Again, the difference between Nagato and Hashirama is that Nagato must stress the absolute limits of his Rin'negan (CST and CT) to reach Hashirama's scale while Hashirama expresses such power rather casually.

Base Hashirama wins with fair difficulty.


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## αce (May 5, 2013)

Nagato can't absorb Mokuton. I'll let you figure out the rest.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

He might live long enough to learn true pain, if Hashirama doesn't just put him to sleep first.


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## egressmadara (May 5, 2013)

Literally a flick from Hashirama's wood giants will kill Nagato. And it's not like Nagato can do anything spectacular here seeing as Hashirama can just bind with Mokuton from the ground he's standing on and crush him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

Nagato wins. Hashirama simply hasn't shown anything that would prevent him from being vulnerable to the common Rinnegan problem.

Contrary to recent popular belief, I still believe what Yamato told us about Mokuton: it is an elemental fusion. We've seen that, like all other Ninjutsu, it isn't safe from Gakido. 

That automatically limits Hashirama to using swords and Genjutsu. However Nagato has three forms of tracking Hashirama (shared vision, sensing and rain) and can make CQC very suicidal with Shurado and Tendo- not to mention a simple touch while he's using Ningendo or Jigokudo would instantly end the fight. 

Worst case scenario Nagato could soul dragon solo. More so if he combines that with Bansho Tenin.


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## αce (May 5, 2013)

Of course it's a goddamn elemental fusion. It doesn't change the fact that the product is alive. I couldn't care less if it was made out of fairies, he's not absorbing Mokuton's any more than he is absorbing real trees. _Hashirama makes real trees._ Not some Satan spawn undead trees.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

Nagato can't absorb living things. Bottom line.


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## Bonly (May 5, 2013)

This match was made like a month or two ago so i'll just copy and paste.

I'd favor Hashi more times then not.

Nagato has the means to do a decent job here with Asura+Deva path. Nagato has missiles,head canons,rocket boots to fly, and an arm canon. 
With Deva path he has normal size ST, a ST that was used on Gamatrio and a ST that destroyed the leaf as well as CT.

So with all of the above Nagato can fly up in the air via rocket boots and use his Asura+Deva powers to constantly destroy wood that comes towards him although he might get overwhelmed due to the sheer size of Hashi's wood(:ho) coming from multiple angles. This would likely come down to who can outlast who. Both are chakra tanks but I believe after seeing how Hashi is taking on EMS Madara with Kurama and doing multiple wood techs on such huge levels as well as has a Sage Mode to further increase every stat and all his jutsu, Hashi should outlast Nagato. And depending on next chapter,this might solo as well. Nagato's good and at a high level but Hashi is on a higher level.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

We're only told that the Mokuton that Hashirama makes has a strong life force, like KCM Naruto's shroud. I don't recall anything so much as implying as it is an actual tree as opposed to a chakra tree. Well nothing really seems to lean that way since we learnt it is a product of mixing two chakra types.

However we do have Yamato who explicitly says mixing Suiton and Doton generates Mokuton. The same guy with Hashirama's cells. 

Surely Hashirama may have something past the Gakido. However we can't just rewrite what Mokuton actually is (a chakra attack) just to make his current portrayal in the library match the battledome. 
If he's destined to trample the Rinnegan, then it is just a matter of waiting.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

Nagato cannot absorb living things. What don't you understand. Nagato cannot absorb Bijuu, he cannot absorb humans, he cannot absorb anything that is alive. Bringing up Naruto's shroud doesn't help your case, as it was never absorbed.


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## Joakim3 (May 5, 2013)

Nagato *can absorb the chakra fueling* _Mokuton_, the problem is the 1000ton tree dragon that will be hurtling in his direction after he absorbs it. 

Nothing short of summoning Gedo Mazo is letting Nagato defend against Hashirama assault.


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## The World (May 5, 2013)

Nagato can win if he runs in the opposite direction as soon as the match starts and fires off Chibaku Tensei

If Hashirama does decide to target the sphere, Nagato can try and finish him off with Chou Shinra Tensei



Rocky said:


> Nagato cannot absorb living things. What don't you understand. Nagato cannot absorb Bijuu, he cannot absorb humans, he cannot absorb anything that is alive. Bringing up Naruto's shroud doesn't help your case, as it was never absorbed.



He sure as hell can absorb chakra tho


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## Jagger (May 5, 2013)

αce said:


> Of course it's a goddamn elemental fusion. It doesn't change the fact that the product is alive. I couldn't care less if it was made out of fairies, he's not absorbing Mokuton's any more than he is absorbing real trees. _Hashirama makes real trees._ Not some Satan spawn undead trees.


Nagato may absorb the chakra inside Hashirama's mokuton, thus, leaving the roots useless. If Hashirama can produce much more wood and can place his chakra back to the roots to use it again, it's another story.


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## DaVizWiz (May 5, 2013)

Hashirama has no knowledge on Nagato, giving him a distinct edge.

It's likely Hashirama blitzes in and attempts a Taijutsu kill, at which point he's ST'd back, BT'd forward, and soul ripped.

This, all assuming Nagato doesn't piss his pants and immediately try to escape.

I laugh at the logic that Hashirama starts with Mokuton Dragon or Pollen Trees without knowledge. The wank never stops.


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## Arles Celes (May 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Nagato cannot absorb living things. What don't you understand. Nagato cannot absorb Bijuu, he cannot absorb humans, he cannot absorb anything that is alive. Bringing up Naruto's shroud doesn't help your case, as it was never absorbed.



What about doton then or Susanoo?

The first is just as solid as mokuton and the latter as "alive" as mokuton too.

Personally I think that Nagato may not be able to absorb solid objects made of chakra BUT by taking the chakra away from them he will cause something like mokuton to wither and something like doton to turn to dust.

Chakra shrouds can easily be absorbed as we saw with SM and Bee's V2.

He may not be able to absorb bijuus or humans either but he may suck the chakra out of them and cause them to collapse. Probably only energy based and liquid based chakra attacks get absorbed completely while other chakra construct experience different sorts of effects that cause them to lose effectiveness IMO.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

Susano'o isn't a living thing.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

> I don't recall anything so much as implying as it is an actual tree as opposed to a chakra tree.



You should know the forest that surrounds Konoha was all made from Hashirama's birth of trees.  The one that's a total self sustaining ecosystem that grows and lives and makes new trees.  

You should also know Mokubunshin are made from the proliferation of  that feed off of his chakra and life force to grow.  Just like the trees have a mass proliferation of tree cells that use the energy of Hashirama's chakra and life force to grow.

Which means both are made of living tissue and real cells.  Which means preta can't absorb them because he didn't eat a mass of flash out of Naruto when he drained them.

There's overwhelming support for this canon.

*Databook on Mokuton:*

A unique secret technique that *creates life*, tearing through the ground!!

A legendary technique that turns chakra into *a source of life.*

*Mokubunshin:*

A clone created by altering *one's own cells* with chakra.

*Databook 3 - Mokuton: Daijurin no Jutsu:*

*A technique that changes one's own arm into big trees.* Using chakra, *the cells are transformed into trees.* Then, by activating the trees, *stimulating them to grow* rapidly, they lengthen at high speed and fork into many branches.

*Databook 3 - Mokuton: Mokujouheki: *

This technique uses chakra to *activate the roots in the ground* and...

*Databook 3 - Mokuton: Shichuuka no Jutsu:*

By sending chakra into the ground,* the roots of the plants are converted into raw materials.*

Now let's look at the baggage your definition of mokuton and preta's powers bring.

If we used your definition, everything that is boosted or altered or proliferated with chakra is a chakra construct, and preta can absorb it.  Tsunade has used chakra to alter and regenerate her cells with chakra.  Ergo preta can absorb her.  

Is that absurd enough for you?  We can go further.

Preta could absorb Asura too, when he goes into Asura form.  Not to mention Choji when when he uses cho-baika or meat tank, and most especially Yamato's arm when he turns it into a tree, or Danzo's arm when it sprouts.  In fact, if someone uses henge, he can just eat all of them because they've altered their entire body with chakra.  

We can even go another step if you really, _really_, want to.  

Since all modifications done with chakra become a chakra construct, and no chakra construct can ever become a true living thing (as per your insistence that mokuton life is absorb-able), anyone who has _ever_ performed henge, cho baika, or healed with medical jutsu (which uses chakra as energy to create rapid cell growth) has irreversibly turned their body into a chakra construct can be completely absorbed by Preta.  

Though we clearly have scans of Yamato turning his arm and parts of his body to wood, and then back again, and reabsorbing his mokubunshin, so in addition to being absurd, it also contradicts canon if you wanted to sustain some of your needed premises anyway.

However we can just say Preta can't absorb Mokuton or life and move on.


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## Jagger (May 5, 2013)

But it's formed from chakra, thus, making it absorbable (is that even a word..).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

IT USES ROOTS AND SEEDS.

*"activate the roots in the ground"*

It's using real plants.

LIFE


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## joshhookway (May 5, 2013)

Mokuton is natural element. If nagato tries to absorb, he can't control the natural and turns to stone.


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## DaVizWiz (May 5, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Mokuton is natural element. If nagato tries to absorb, he can't control the natural and turns to stone.


Mokuton is a combination of water and earth natures. Though no one has utilized it without the direct injection of Hashirama's cells, indicating that it is indeed a different type of Ninjutsu which only Hashirama's cells work with.

The same cannot be said about Lava Release, Dust Release or Magnet Release, as there are several users who don't seem to be related, thus have different cellular structures. 

There is literally no such thing as "natural element." Because elements are part of nature. But this Ninjutsu isn't really just chakra based, as it canonically has created life, which will continue to create life when filtered with Yang chakra (Naruto's KCM Cloak)- as no other Ninjutsu has. I would assume it is partly a Yang construct because it creates life from nothing, but who cares enough to go that deep into it? It's just too hard to figure out. 

The only real explanation, as stated canonically, is Hashirama's cells are supernaturally filled with life force (just like Karin and Nagato), as and such, his chakra has the ability to create life (Mokuton), his body can recover faster (Zetsu durability), and can control Natural Energy (SM) and his normal chakra (like Tsunade's medical ninjutsu control) with ease. It's also implied that his chakra is of it's own caliber when Orochimaru used it to increase the restraint and effectiveness of Edo Tensei. 

I have to agree that it cannot be absorbed, but attempting to absorb it will not turn someone into stone: that only works with Natural Energy (SM)- not nature transformation (Mokuton). The one absorbing would simply be crushed by the wood. 

Now if he tried to absorb SM Hashirama's Mokuton- then we can argue that he'd turn to stone and be crushed.



> But it's formed from chakra, thus, making it absorbable (is that even a word..).


I'd like to see whether or not The BD thinks Magnet Release (KG), Explosion Release (KG), Gaara'a landscape-obliterating sand wave (KG?), Deidara's C3 Explosion/Clay (KG/Hiden), Shikamaru's shadow (Ying-Yang/Hiden), Ma/Pa's Frog Call (Sage Art), Super-expanded Choji (Hiden/Calorie Control), Kimimaro's Bone Forest (KG), Ino's Mind Control (Hiden), Naruto's Frog Kata (Sage Art), Onoki's/Mu's Flight (?), Onoki's Weight Control (Doton), Onoki's Mobile Golem (Doton), Kitsuchi's Sandwich (Doton), Kitsuchi's Moving Earth Core (Doton), Mu's Camouflage/Body Splitting (Ninjutsu/?), can be absorbed entirely as well- as they also are formed from chakra.

Not everything controlled or created from chakra can be absorbed. It simply isn't logical.


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## Axiom (May 5, 2013)

Jagger said:


> But it's formed from chakra, thus, making it absorbable (is that even a word..).



Absorbent is the word you're looking for methinks.

Anyway, Hashi and Nagato aren't really on the same level.  Nagato has to launch his super hax in order to counter Hashi's casual base jutsu.  Hashi should win this one fairly quickly.  If CT comes, I'm sure Hashi has some Mokuton Jutsu that can blow it up or keep him anchored to the ground or something.

EDIT:  Woops nvm I misread your post.  Absorbable... I'm not really sure that that's a word.  Mayhaps that can't be put into just one word, I'm not entirely sure :X


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## The World (May 5, 2013)

CT was ripping apart mountain ranges from the ground

There is nothing anyone can do to keep themselves anchored

People can try to avoid it, like Tobi/Minato teleporting, or maybe if Zetsu can somehow travel through the ground fast enough(I doubt it)

Once it gets going however, not even KN6 mountain busting blasts were enough to stop it


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## Octavian (May 5, 2013)

base hashirama could deal with perfect susanoo + kyuubi at the same time. nagato gets destroyed fairly quickly


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## Lurko (May 5, 2013)

Personally I think nagato could asorb the wood but it would take more time due to being a lot bigger and I don't think he could keep it up forever,  I see hashi winning regardless with wood clones,  wood pollen, wood dragon, etc..


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Nagato cannot absorb living things. What don't you understand. Nagato cannot absorb Bijuu, he cannot absorb humans, he cannot absorb anything that is alive. Bringing up Naruto's shroud doesn't help your case, as it was never absorbed.



The chakra arm that tried to hit Nagato was absorbed. Also you made it loud and clear, living things can't be absorbed. Mokuton isn't living. 
It is explicitly stated that it is a mixture of Suiton chakra and Doton chakra. Elemental fusions aren't exempt from the Gakido's wrath. 

As I've said, if Hashirama is destined to destroy the Rinnegan's power... it'll only be a matter of time till we see something allowing him to do so. Till then claiming this Ninjutsu (Mokuton) is living or not living simply won't do.


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## Lurko (May 5, 2013)

Well we will find out soon, hashi and mads will meet soon.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

What do you mean Mokuton isn't living. How many times does the Manga have to say it?


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## αce (May 5, 2013)

There's no point arguing anymore. It's pretty damn clear that Hashirama makes living trees. It's even more obvious when you consider the fact that Hashirama and Madara are two parts of the Rikudou and one of Rikudou's abilities was breathing life into objects.


I mean, for gods sake, the Zetsu's have been stated to be "the land itself" when they seemingly merge with the trees as if they were...well, a fucking tree - because they are.


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## Dr. White (May 5, 2013)

Both the manga and Databooks claim that Hashirama creates Mokuton by giving it life via his chakra. Do you not remember when Danzo couldn't hold in Hashi's chakra any longer and kinda started sprouting trees? It is obviously that Senju DNA moreover Hashi DNA has special properties: hence why it can counter act Uchiha blindness, boost stamina levels tremendously, and allow for Tailed Beast control. Hashirama uses his Yang chakra(yang being the physical, life giving chakra as oppossed to Yin) to actually give life to trees, the manga and Databook back this up by stating Hashirama and Tobirama literally crafted the village of Konoha with their powers/leadership.

Yamato was creating house structures to rebuild the village(meaning they obviously last long as they were used for city buildings/lodging) on a pretty large scale, and mind you he is foddersticks to Hashirama. 

At the end of they day, Mokuton is living and cannot be absorbed. Even if it could be Preta is not absorbing a fucking forest that can be created in a couple seconds, not even mentioning the additions of Mokuton: Dragon, Kami God, and various other techniques. He would get swallowed in a sea of hard wood.


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## Sans (May 5, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The chakra arm that tried to hit Nagato was absorbed. Also you made it loud and clear, living things can't be absorbed. Mokuton isn't living.
> It is explicitly stated that it is a mixture of Suiton chakra and Doton chakra. Elemental fusions aren't exempt from the Gakido's wrath.
> 
> As I've said, if Hashirama is destined to destroy the Rinnegan's power... it'll only be a matter of time till we see something allowing him to do so. Till then claiming this Ninjutsu (Mokuton) is living or not living simply won't do.



Now address PoW's post.

He finally defaulted into addressing your insanity, you may as well provide chuckles by rejecting it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

*MUNBOY*

*Databook on Mokuton:*

A unique secret technique that *creates life*, tearing through the ground!!

A legendary technique that turns chakra into *a source of life.*

*Mokubunshin:*

A clone created by altering *one's own cells* with chakra.

*Databook 3 - Mokuton: Daijurin no Jutsu:*

*A technique that changes one's own arm into big trees.* Using chakra, *the cells are transformed into trees.* Then, by activating the trees, *stimulating them to grow* rapidly, they lengthen at high speed and fork into many branches.

*Databook 3 - Mokuton: Mokujouheki: *

This technique uses chakra to *activate the roots in the ground* and...

*Databook 3 - Mokuton: Shichuuka no Jutsu:*

By sending chakra into the ground,* the roots of the plants are converted into raw materials.*

Hashirama uses REAL PLANTS.  

LIFE

*Unlimited flail works:*


*Spoiler*: __ 
















I went into even more detail on the first post of this page I made out to you.  You should check it out if this or any other one got your attention.


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## Dr. White (May 5, 2013)

Hmm maybe there is a certain reason as to why only Hashi, and people who have his DNA can use Mokuton(albeit severly limited)


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## joshhookway (May 5, 2013)

Some people never concede even if he's arguing against the creator of a world that he's aruguing in.


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## blk (May 6, 2013)

Manga knowledge means zero in this case.

With an IC state of mind assumed, a lot depends if Hashirama starts with a CQC approach or some small scale Mokuton from distance (he is certainly not going to unleash his strongest moves without any knowledge).

If he goes for CQC, Nagato should win easily with his gravitational powers added to soul stealing (Shurado can also be very helpfull).

If Hashirama test Nagato with some Mokuton for first, it will the prelude of a relatively long battle.
Infact, after seeing that Nagato can counter Mokuton by repelling it with invisible force, Hashirama will most likely stay at long distance until that he understands how this power works.
As next move, Nagato should start to summon some of his beasts, like he does in basically every of his battles; though they'll be restrained fastly by Mokuton.
Nagato might also try to use BT and Shurado's missiles and lasers, both of which are nullified by Mokuton.

Then, Hashirama should probably overwhelm Nagato with Mokuton.

However, something to consider is that Nagato might win if CST, CT or the soul dragons are used.

All of this is valid only assuming that Preta Path doesn't absorb Mokuton.


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## puma21 (May 6, 2013)

Even if petra path can't be absorbed it can be avoided by flying with deva paths ability or using the summon. It can also be destroyed with shinra tensei. I'm not seeing how Hashirama counters chibaku tensei, chou shinra tensei or the soul dragon.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Props for the find on activating the roots. Unlike the others who I've debated, you've actually brought something substantial that made me think. Even though your pitch was relatively a"ZOMGRAGE" type.  

However the cells are turned into Mokuton by applying the chakra change. If that's absorbed, no-more Mokuton. What happens to the cells? Well it honestly doesn't matter given they were transformed into wood with the chakra. I mean it seems similar to Sage Mode in a sense. Sage Mode too alters the body. However it didn't stop that from being absorbed. So Mokuton such as Daijurin wouldn't be protected.

Nevertheless you have proved that there's a decent chance the majority of Mokuton Ninjutsu aren't absorbent given that it manipulates its natural element (wood in this case) akin to its parent chakra types.

----

However with what we've seen *thus far*. I'm still not quite convinced that Hashirama beats Nagato. You spent all that effort dealing with how Hashirama could make it past *one* path out of seven. That doesn't change the fact that Shurado and Chikushodo powers could still smash through a lot of Mokuton (God Realm if need be). That's not even considering what Gedo Mazo could be capable of. Then there's the infamous CT which uses these natural trees a lot of Mokuton Ninjutsu use. 

Removing Gakido from the equation doesn't mean Rinnegan users have lost their chance. It just means they'll actually need to work to beat Hashirama.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 6, 2013)

blk said:


> Manga knowledge means zero in this case.
> 
> With an IC state of mind assumed, a lot depends if Hashirama starts with a CQC approach or some small scale Mokuton from distance (he is certainly not going to unleash his strongest moves without any knowledge).
> 
> ...



What about Cerberus?


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## Daenerys Stormborn (May 6, 2013)

The question of what exactly Preta Path can absorb is an interesting one.  It seems that Nagato can absorb physical matter that's created from pure chakra (Jiraiya's oil), he can absorb pure chakra that was manifested by a living creature (Naruto's chakra arm), and he can absorb chakra that's being actively molded within a person's body (Naruto's nature energy).

But what about physical matter that is imbued with chakra but wasn't created purely from it?  If he was fighting Gaara, would he be able to absorb Gaara's sand?  I've always thought that he'd be able to absorb the chakra, returning the matter to its natural inanimate state, but not the matter itself.  

So whether he can absorb Mokuton depends on what exactly Mokuton is:
--If it's physical matter made purely from chakra (like J-Man's oil), he should be able to absorb it.
--If it's physical matter that's imbued with chakra but not made purely from it (like Gaara's sand), he could drain the chakra out of it, but not absorb the physical structure itself.

If whether or not the matter in question is living is important, it might be something like when he drains the natural energy out of Naruto (except without turning to stone)--the Mokuton would be drained of its chakra, but would still be there, just like the energy was drained out of Naruto but Naruto himself didn't disappear.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Props for the find on activating the roots. Unlike the others who I've debated, you've actually brought something substantial that made me think. Even though your pitch was relatively a"ZOMGRAGE" type.
> 
> However the cells are turned into Mokuton by applying the chakra change. If that's absorbed, no-more Mokuton. What happens to the cells? Well it honestly doesn't matter given they were transformed into wood with the chakra. I mean it seems similar to Sage Mode in a sense. Sage Mode too alters the body. However it didn't stop that from being absorbed. So Mokuton such as Daijurin wouldn't be protected.
> 
> ...



 was not ZOMGRAGE.  

You just seemed to have missed it so I used mega-multi size to draw your attention.


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## blk (May 7, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What about Cerberus?



Hashirama can restrain it after that he sees that it can't be killed.


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## puma21 (May 7, 2013)

blk said:


> Hashirama can restrain it after that he sees that it can't be killed.



Jiraiya's toad tried to restrain it as well. It just split and escaped from it's restraints.


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## blk (May 7, 2013)

puma21 said:


> Jiraiya's toad tried to restrain it as well. It just split and escaped from it's restraints.



Hashirama can restrain it in a way that it won't be able to escape by splitting.

Bottom line, the beast can be locked inside a big Mokuton sphere.


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