# Can the Sannin "ever" defeat any character?



## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

So, I was wondering about who is the strongest character people around here think the Sannin (together) can defeat. 

As may everyone know, they are awfully underrated, so who do you think is the strongest they can defeat? 
and usually you can see people claim how they get mid-difficult by some character(s) () or even lol-low difficult.

Or at least if not defeating, at least giving a fight to some characters... lol


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## Alex Payne (Feb 13, 2015)

Minato


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## Altair21 (Feb 13, 2015)

If people didn't consistently put them up against god tier or top tier characters then they'd win the majority of a lot more matches.


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

ok, we have a good start. 
though Kishi made Minato to a fodder-tier currently, so not so impressive for all 3 of them. 



> Altair21 said:
> 
> 
> > If people didn't consistently put them up against god tier or top tier characters then they'd win the majority of a lot more matches.
> ...


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## Euraj (Feb 13, 2015)

People just put them against the wrong folks. They'd beat Minato's bitch ass though.


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## Icegaze (Feb 13, 2015)

Agreed with all comments not Hussain
Putting them up against people who can beat them is just funny 
And god tier floors them with negative difficulty 
When 2 out of the 3 Sannin can't even do much against the likes of itachi who is very far from god tier


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## Patrick (Feb 13, 2015)

Well Tsunade is a Low Kage and Jiraiya and Orochimaru both reside somewhere between Mid and High Kage. No surprise they can't beat God Tiers. I have no clue how someone can think Itachi or Minato (both High Kages) could solo all three of them though.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 13, 2015)

Strongest they can beat is probably low-end top tiers
like Nagato or EMS sauce.


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

From where all this "god tier" shit come from to begin with? 
did I even mention someone like the Kid, Sasuke, Kaguya and her family..etc or anything like that?


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## RBL (Feb 13, 2015)

same question goes for seven gated guy, is seven gated gai able to defeat anyone?


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

Pfff, 7 Gate Guy is JJ SM Madara level! He obviously fodderstomps everyone and their mothers. 
What a silly question..


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## Arles Celes (Feb 13, 2015)

Poor 7th Gate Guy...so underrated. 

Only Hashi is more underrated.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 13, 2015)

Collectively, I think they could take on Nagato and struggle out a win.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2015)

Anyone who suggests Nagato must be joking. There isn't a chance in hell they can counter Planetary Devastation, or a village-wide Almighty Push if Nagato doesn't allude to it foolishly beforehand like Pain did.

Personally, I think the strongest fighter they'd have the greatest chance of defeating is Itachi, and mostly because of the latter's stamina issues.

They'd also have a solid chance at War Arc Sage Naruto, but only if the guy doesn't pull out Sage Art: Massive Rasenshuriken in time. Which is likely if Gamakichi leaps high enough.


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## Hachibi (Feb 13, 2015)

2 of the 3 Sannin are non-factor against Itachi, with only one (Jiraiya) able to win against him.

Saying Itachi and people in his tier for the strongest they can defeat isn't far-fetched, even tho they would lose more time than not...

...Well, without ET I mean.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Anyone who suggests Nagato must be joking. There isn't a chance in hell they can counter Planetary Devastation, or a village-wide Almighty Push if Nagato doesn't allude to it foolishly beforehand like Pain did.
> 
> Personally, I think the strongest fighter they'd have the greatest chance of defeating is Itachi, and mostly because of the latter's stamina issues.
> 
> They'd also have a solid chance at War Arc Sage Naruto, but only if the guy doesn't pull out Sage Art: Massive Rasenshuriken in time. Which is likely if Gamakichi leaps high enough.



When I say Nagato, I mean the living version of the one that fought Killer Bee and Naruto - with the mobility problems - not 'prime' Nagato, if such a thing exists.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> There isn't a chance in hell they can counter Planetary Devastation.



Tsunade throws the Kusanagi at the core.



> or a village-wide Almighty Push if Nagato doesn't allude to it foolishly beforehand like Pain did.



I don't think he was doing it on purpose, but it it's not like anybody knew what he was about to do beforehand because of it.


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## RBL (Feb 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Pfff, 7 Gate Guy is JJ SM Madara level! He obviously fodderstomps everyone and their mothers.
> What a silly question..



dude tsunade alone can take everyone in the BD 

and u think sanin are underrated?

look at the tsunade vs 'name of  a character' thread.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 13, 2015)

Probably Pein.​​


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## StarWanderer (Feb 13, 2015)

> Pfff, 7 Gate Guy is JJ SM Madara level! He obviously fodderstomps everyone and their mothers.



He fodderstomps base Minato and SM Minato for sure.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> When I say Nagato, I mean the living version of the one that fought Killer Bee and Naruto - with the mobility problems - not 'prime' Nagato, if such a thing exists.



Doesn't really change anything, Nagato even in that immobile state can still unleash his strongest techniques, to which the Legendary Ninja simply have no answer to.

Someone who can casually dominate Killer Bee and Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto isn't being contested by the likes of these three anytime soon.



FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade throws the Kusanagi at the core.



Which isn't piercing through kilometers of rock, unless you seriously believe that, in which case, lol. 

Six-Tailed Naruto's half-formed Tailed Beast Bomb vaporized Konoha across a near two-kilometer radius, yet when complete, couldn't do anything against Pain's Planetary Devastation. Now we're talking someone a considerable amount stronger than his puppet self. The notion of Tsunade with a blade accomplishing anything against something of that scale is *laughable*.



> I don't think he was doing it on purpose, but it it's not like anybody knew what he was about to do beforehand because of it.



The difference is, in these Battledome match-ups, we usually ignore character stupidity to truly evaluate the relative strengths of characters. We don't assume Nagato goes off into a tirade about pain and whatnot, and ends it off with something ominous and foreboding like '_I want you to feel, know, think about, and accept pain_' to tip off Tsunade. 

Because of that, in this match-up, Tsunade isn't going to have time to summon Katsuyu to protect her fellow shinobi and herself. She gets erased off the face of the planet the moment Nagato raises his hands.


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

nagato/pain admitted that he wouldn't have probably won if jman had knowledge. I honesty dont see
nagato winning against them at all. Even later on it was implied that had Oro been there as well, Jiraiya
wouldn't have died. 

&

I want my name back, that's so disgraceful. -____-


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## Hachibi (Feb 13, 2015)

I love how everyone forgot about Edo Tensei, tho it depends if they can get it off.

That kinda remind me of the Rikudo Sennin vs Sannin discussion. Good Times


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> nagato/pain admitted that he wouldn't have probably won if jman had knowledge.



Plenty of reasons for that that don't involve direct combat - i.e., Jiraiya could have just avoided fighting them at all and instead gone straight for Nagato. His sensing abilities, coupled with the Elder Sages' mastered own, wouldn't have made locating the real Pain difficult at all.



> I honesty dont see
> nagato winning against them at all. *Even later on it was implied that had Oro been there as well, Jiraiya wouldn't have died*.



???


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## Hachibi (Feb 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> nagato/pain admitted that he wouldn't have probably won if jman had knowledge. I honesty dont see
> nagato winning against them at all. Even later on it was implied that had Oro been there as well, Jiraiya
> wouldn't have died.



Except that Nagato is absolutely above Pein in everyways. Your dear kid say it himself.



> I want my name back, that's so disgraceful. -____-



Well, admin's hobbit to fuck over people's username always happen on holiday


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

Nah, I actually meant by their own power. There is no point of including ET. 



> Except that Nagato is absolutely above Pein in everyways. Your dear kid say it himself.



His jutsu are the same though. 



> Well, admin's hobbit to fuck over people's username always happen on holiday



It's not a holiday for me, so why am I being included?


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Plenty of reasons for that that don't involve direct combat - i.e., Jiraiya could have just avoided fighting them at all and instead gone straight for Nagato. His sensing abilities, coupled with the Elder Sages' mastered own, wouldn't have made locating the real Pain difficult at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ???



- I believe it was meant because they took him off-guard, and if he had known about the other 3 paths, it wouldn't have happened. 

- This scan:
1


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - I believe it was meant because they took him off-guard, and if he had known about the other 3 paths, it wouldn't have happened.



I don't see how Jiraiya could have won especially with all Six Paths present. One Universal Pull is all it takes to leave Jiraiya wide open for six chakra rods to pierce his spine.



> - This scan:
> 1



That could just as easily be interpreted as Jiraiya wouldn't have become involved with investigating Akatsuki if Orochimaru had never been affiliated with them to begin with, leading to his direct encounter with Pain and resultant death.


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## Hachibi (Feb 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Nah, I actually meant by their own power. There is no point of including ET.



That doesn't make sense since ET *is* Orochimaru's power



> His jutsu are the same though.



...
That's like comparing Wind-Arc Naruto's Rasenshuriken with The Last Naruto's. Same jutsu=/=Same Power



> It's not a holiday for me, so why am I being included?



Because everything is form admins' perpectives?


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2015)

> That's like comparing Wind-Arc Naruto's Rasenshuriken with The Last Naruto's. Same jutsu=/=Same Power



We really haven't seen any different in his power though. 
Pain's feets were actually grater from what we have seen.


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## LostSelf (Feb 13, 2015)

Pain.

I seriously don't see them defeating Nagato, though. Chibaku Tensei is not something i see them countering. Or boss sized Shinra Tensei. And no way i see them outlasting him receiving hits either.


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## Hachibi (Feb 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We really haven't seen any different in his power though.



If by "any different" you mean "form destroying his arm and not killing his ennemy to force someone to waste a Gudodama on it" then I agree.



> Pain's feets were actually grater from what we have seen.



Didn't know you were into feet Hussain


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The difference is, in these Battledome match-ups, we usually ignore character stupidity to truly evaluate the relative strengths of characters. We don't assume Nagato goes off into a tirade about pain and whatnot, and ends it off with something ominous and foreboding like '_I want you to feel, know, think about, and accept pain_' to tip off Tsunade.
> 
> Because of that, in this match-up, Tsunade isn't going to have time to summon Katsuyu to protect her fellow shinobi and herself. She gets erased off the face of the planet the moment Nagato raises his hands.



Your point might hold some merit if Tsunade had actually protected Konoha during the time that Pein went off on a tangent and flew into the air, but the fact of the matter is, she didn't. We see the villagers of Konoha moments, seconds, before the attack hits, and they still _aren't being protected by Katsuyu_. Tsunade had Katsuyu surround the villagers at the very last moment, as soon as Pein launched his attack. There is no reason why she could not do the same thing with Jiraiya and Orochimaru. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> That could just as easily be interpreted as Jiraiya wouldn't have become involved with investigating Akatsuki if Orochimaru had never been affiliated with them to begin with, leading to his direct encounter with Pain and resultant death.



To be fair, I think Hussain's interpretation is far more likely to be true than yours. Even if Orochimaru had never joined Akatsuki, Jiraiya would have undoubtedly still investigated the organisation at some point since they were snatching up bijuu, including Konoha's own Kyuubi ie. his godson. If Orochimaru was still part of the village he may have tagged along with Jiraiya to fight Pein and kill him. Tsunade wanted to do this but couldn't, as she was the Hokage and unable to leave the village at that time.​​


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 13, 2015)

They beat Nagato, with _at most_ a single casualty, that casualty probably being Jiraiya because of his lack of regeneration and the fact that Orochimaru can burrow and LaC to avoid attacks 

5% Byakugo-enhanced Katsuya, Hydra, 6 Boss snake summons with burrowing capability, 3 boss frogs with leaping ability, Dust Cloud, Frog Song, Frog Call, Rash Gates, Gama's Water Bullets, Leech all Creation, Kusanagi, Poison vapors, Omeda Rasengan

Byakugo-enhanced super Sage Art: Frog Oil Flame Bullet, Yomi Numa, Goemon, etc. 

They pull out a win on crippled Nagato, who is significantly less capable of battle than his crippled Edo variant, that did not feel pain or fatigue, and who was literally moving on his feet pre-absorption against Killer Bee. None of that would happen here, he'd be discouraged by his pain immediately upon exertion, he'd be fatigued within seconds of the battle, and he would literally not be able to stand or move on his own at all. All things considered, I don't see how he would avoid Yomi Numa start battle when the man can't even put weight on his legs.

CT is a non-factor, Jiraiya can sink him with Yomi Numa the moment he opts to release the orb as he must stand stationary while it's in use, not to mention burrowing summons may have the capacity to escape it's AoE, Orochimaru at the very least can certainly survive it with Leech all Creation.


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## Empathy (Feb 13, 2015)

Probably Nagato/Pain at best. They'd have to do it before _Chibaku Tensei_ comes into play though, which I think they can do. Itachi or Minato would get beaten decisively. After Nagato comes the likes of Hashirama and Madara's tier, which they can't beat.


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## Ersa (Feb 13, 2015)

The Sannin are pretty overrated I feel.

They were once top tier back in Part I but the manga eventually rendered them mostly irrelevant. Tsunade and Orochimaru without Edo Tensei sit in the middle of pack as far as Kages are concerned and Jiraiya stands above them in Sage Mode. So what you have really is 2 average level Kages and one slightly above average Kage with excellent teamwork.

Pain or SM Kabuto would be the strongest they could take out. Nagato, Minato and Edo Itachi and anyone above that completely cream them. These guys have the neccessary defense to weather the Sannin's attacks and more then enough firepower to wipe the floor with them.


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## Bonly (Feb 13, 2015)

I'd say the strongest they have a decent shot at beating would be VoTE Madara if they have some good distance between them.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 13, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Which isn't piercing through kilometers of rock, unless you seriously believe that, in which case, lol.



It doesn't really need to. When Itachi first started inquiring about the core it was still bare for the most part; it was only _after_ Naruto started recalling that Nagato used the technique on him before, Itachi asked Naruto how he got out of it the last time, Naruto had a moment of silence which prompted Bee to tease him, and Itachi explained that they needed to remain calm and deduced that they should strike it from there, that Chibaku Tensei had amassed such gigantic amounts of rock around its core.

Tsunade and Orochimaru can skip that entire sequence since they already have knowledge on the technique thanks to connections with Katsuyu (telepathically connected to Tsunade) and Kabuto (who had some of Orochimaru's Chakra, which has his consciousness split with it, before it was taken back). They'll see the core and Orochimaru will toss the Kusanagi to Tsunade before she throws it, that's it.



> Six-Tailed Naruto's half-formed Tailed Beast Bomb vaporized Konoha across a near two-kilometer radius, yet when complete, couldn't do anything against Pain's Planetary Devastation.



I think it was obvious from the size of the explosion that the blast he used against it wasn't nearly as powerful as what he used in the Konoha Crater.



> The difference is, in these Battledome match-ups, we usually ignore character stupidity to truly evaluate the relative strengths of characters. We don't assume Nagato goes off into a tirade about pain and whatnot, and ends it off with something ominous and foreboding like '_I want you to feel, know, think about, and accept pain_' to tip off Tsunade.
> 
> Because of that, in this match-up, Tsunade isn't going to have time to summon Katsuyu to protect her fellow shinobi and herself. She gets erased off the face of the planet the moment Nagato raises his hands.



That statement wouldn't tip off Tsunade to the launch of that amplified Shinra Tensei, though. She didn't know _what_ he was doing, and Katsuyu wasn't yet surrounding everybody. 

Tsunade just has to pop the slug in front of the Sannin when Nagato raises his hands (should be doable if Gama can be summoned to block Kisame in mid-swing). The Sannin can just be absorbed into the slug as it gets knocked back, so they should be fine.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 13, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> SM Kabuto



No freaking way are they taking out Sage Kabuto.


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## ARGUS (Feb 14, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Strongest they can beat is probably low-end top tiers
> like Nagato or EMS sauce.



Yeah no chance. Both of them turn the sannin into a smear on the ground

OT - the strongest they beat is Minato or Tobirama


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 14, 2015)

> Which isn't piercing through kilometers of rock, unless you seriously believe that, in which case, lol.



The kilometers or rock Itachi's magatama had to get through?

The Kilometers or rock that are tougher than adamantine?

Pretty sure even if that wasn't erroneous, Tsunade's strength _or_ Kusunagi can surpass ordinary rock.


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## ARGUS (Feb 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> They beat Nagato, with _at most_ a single casualty, that casualty probably being Jiraiya because of his lack of regeneration and the fact that Orochimaru can burrow and LaC to avoid attacks



They stand no chance against nagato, 



> 5% Byakugo-enhanced Katsuya, Hydra, 6 Boss snake summons with burrowing capability, 3 boss frogs with leaping ability,


One Boss sized ST from deva one shotted all the boss toads  
now if we have nagato here, whose abilties are much better than his puppets, and we have this feat replicated much easily and more effectively 



> Dust Cloud,


Useless to a sensor 



> Frog Song,


Never getting prepped 



> Frog Call, Rash Gates, Gama's Water Bullets, Leech all Creation, Kusanagi, Poison vapors, Omeda Rasengan


Preta negates over half of them, 
others are evaded or shat on by missiles, ST, and summons  



> Byakugo-enhanced super Sage Art: Frog Oil Flame Bullet, Yomi Numa, Goemon, etc.


Preta path shits on alll of these 



> They pull out a win on crippled Nagato, who is significantly less capable of battle than his crippled Edo variant, that did not feel pain or fatigue, and who was literally moving on his feet pre-absorption against Killer Bee. None of that would happen here, he'd be discouraged by his pain immediately upon exertion, he'd be fatigued within seconds of the battle, and he would literally not be able to stand or move on his own at all. All things considered, I don't see how he would avoid Yomi Numa start battle when the man can't even put weight on his legs.


Asura limbs can assist in his mobility so does the bird summons, so thats not an issue 
most of his offense require no movement at all so thats also not an issue 



> CT is a non-factor, Jiraiya can sink him with Yomi Numa the moment he opts to release the orb as he must stand stationary while it's in use,


Good thing that preta doesnt require any movement and helps him negate it just fine 



> not to mention burrowing summons may have the capacity to escape it's AoE, Orochimaru at the very least can certainly survive it with Leech all Creation.


not when CT is aimed directly at them, 
they are not busting the core nor are they breaking free 
CT is not needed though, 
none oof his large scale techniques are, 
BT and Ningendo alone would kill tsunade and orochimaru, 
whilst jiraiya then gets foddered


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## Icegaze (Feb 14, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> They beat Nagato, with _at most_ a single casualty, that casualty probably being Jiraiya because of his lack of regeneration and the fact that Orochimaru can burrow and LaC to avoid attacks
> 
> 5% Byakugo-enhanced Katsuya, Hydra, 6 Boss snake summons with burrowing capability, 3 boss frogs with leaping ability, Dust Cloud, Frog Song, Frog Call, Rash Gates, Gama's Water Bullets, Leech all Creation, Kusanagi, Poison vapors, Omeda Rasengan
> 
> ...



Preta path laughs entirely at YN 
CT murders  them 
There is nothing  they can do 
Hahaha can't believe you just said YN is even an attack to someone like Nagato


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## Source (Feb 14, 2015)

What exactly would Kusanagi thrown by Tsunade accomplish against CT?

It took a KCM FRS, Yasaka Magatama and a friggin Bijuudama to destroy it...


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## Altair21 (Feb 14, 2015)

The Sannin aren't beating a mobile Nagato. Beating Pain (6 different bodies with each only being able to use one path) isn't the same as beating one person with the ability to use all paths (some at the same time) with extreme ease. Not to mention the Sannin really don't have any answer for CT.


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## LostSelf (Feb 14, 2015)

I also don't think they are that underrated. Hussain was here when the Sannin were defeating Juubito.

But yeah, Nagato has more than enough tools to kill one before they kill him (Jiraiya, for example). And if Jiraiya dies here by a powerful Shinra Tensei, the chances of Tsunade and Oro by themselves heavily decreases, as i don't see them touching him.

And there are the possibilities that Katsuyu be walked through with Preta Path just like the God Tree was killing the clones. The other summons are fodder (Katsuyu is, but less than the others and way more useful against him) to Nagato.

And if things gets worse, Nagato can do what Tsunade does with Konoha Colosseum tactics never shown before and Rasengan their asses with CT's core or using BT on their eyes, like Thunder and I were debating .


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## FlamingRain (Feb 14, 2015)

That was like one person.

One person overrating them doesn't cancel out the dozens of posters who think Itachi solos them all with his toenail in like ten seconds.



Ersatz said:


> Tsunade and Orochimaru without Edo Tensei sit in the middle of pack as far as Kages are concerned and Jiraiya stands above them in Sage Mode. So what you have really is 2 average level Kages and one slightly above average Kage with excellent teamwork.



Come on now.

A Sannin's name alone is intimidating enough to frighten the other major villages out of attacking a massively weakened Hidden Leaf (Iruka estimated it to be at about 1/3rd of its typical fighting power). That was one of the points Homura and Koharu brought up when explaining why Jiraiya ought to take over as Hokage- nobody would be scared about the other villages taking such bold actions as the Sand did if he became Hokage- and when he brought up the remaining Sannin, Tsunade, instead they were like "yeah she works, too".

That doesn't sound like the r?sum? of just any run of the mill Kage.

Yes, that was Part 1, but did it really change in Part 2? It shouldn't have, since with the exception of Gaara whose fighting style is virtually identical to Rasa's, those were _the same people_ in power as in Part 1.

Part 2 Kakashi still suspected that Jiraiya's presence was the primary reason that Akatsuki hadn't come after Naruto again in almost three years despite knowing they apparently had no problem waltzing right into the Hidden Sand and snatching up its Kage, and Nagato immediately recognized him as a threat upon sensing his Chakra in the Hidden Rain (even while he was still in base).

Orochimaru had a field day playing with Kn4 until his body began acting up and when Karin berated Sasuke for having so much trouble against Deidara after defeating Orochimaru he implied that he only ever beat him because he was weakened at first (honestly, if Orochimaru had been trying to kill Sasuke instead of absorb him he could have once he was paralyzed- he only lost at the willpower challenge).

Tsunade forced Madara to rescind his weak Senju woman comments even before he became aware of her ability to regenerate as well as summon up giant slugs, and she wound up being the only Kage that could have survived Madara's off-panel rampage in spite of his vow to kill her first.

"Average level Kages" my butt.



> Nagato, *Minato* and Edo Itachi and anyone above that completely cream them.



I think both Pain and Sage Mode Kabuto are stronger than Minato, who, for all intents and purposes _doesn't_ have anywhere near the necessary firepower to "wipe the floor with them".

He'll struggle with bringing down just one; he doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell on a hot day against all three.


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## Kai (Feb 14, 2015)

They can likely down Pain. I wouldn't put Minato and Itachi above those three collectively, that's a bit much.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That was like one person.
> 
> Part 2 Kakashi still suspected that Jiraiya's presence was the primary reason that Akatsuki hadn't come after Naruto again in almost three years despite knowing they apparently had no problem waltzing right into the Hidden Sand and snatching up its Kage, and Nagato immediately recognized him as a threat upon sensing his Chakra in the Hidden Rain (even while he was still in base).



 You mean the same Kakashi who has no knowledge on the Akatsuki's capabilities in general?

 Yeah, and the Akatsuki underestimated Gaara's strength which was stated by Deidara.

 That had more to do with Jiraiya gathering intel on Pain then his actual power. He wasn't even afraid to allow Konan to fight against Jiraiya before he only had one Pain arrive to face him.


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## Hachibi (Feb 14, 2015)

>Kusanagi destroying CT's core

And they say the Sanin are underrated.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 14, 2015)

The strongest they can beat as a team is probably Minato or Tobirama, just because of how limited those two's moves are. Hiraishin is troublesome for the Sannin, but they have ways to fight it; Katsuyu's division could allow her to camp at each of the seals, Orochimaru's got enough snakes to do the same, Jiraiya's hair Jutsu can defend from nearly every angle... Orochimaru is just downright hard to kill for Minato and Tobirama... Burning oil can sweep the battlefield and cover any seals on the ground. Edo Tensei could force Minato into a situation where he needs to use Shiki Fujin, and he can't reasonably take seven targets with it... Tobirama has his own Edo Tensei to counter, but Orochimaru has tags that can rewrite their commands...although I'd wager that's probably a two-way deal, and Tobirama's a lot faster and more likely to beat Oro to the punch. Gamarinshou is obviously dangerous, if it can be prepped. It would be interesting to see two people with the same summoning contract (Jiraiya and Minato) fighting each other, though; wonder if they'd have to share... Like picking team members for dodgeball.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

Jiraiya and/or Oro individually are superior to Tobirama by feats though. It won't take all 3 of them to defeat him, unless it's a lolcurfodderstomps. 

Though a lot of the fights will also depends on Frog Song which is basically a 1-shot jutsu, regardless how powerful the opponent is.
And no BS like "it's not happening" is barely worth replying. Even Jiraiya did not know about that, let alone other foes to stop it before happening. lol


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## StarWanderer (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya and/or Oro individually are superior to Tobirama by feats though. It won't take all 3 of them to defeat him, unless it's a lolcurfodderstomps.
> 
> Though a lot of the fights will also depends on Frog Song which is basically a 1-shot jutsu, regardless how powerful the opponent is.
> And no BS like "it's not happening" is barely worth replying. Even Jiraiya did not know about that, let alone other foes to stop it before happening. lol



Tobirama >>>> aither Jiraya, or Orochimaru due to his much superior speed feats. He might speedblitz both of them.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 14, 2015)

Itachi or the S/T Hokages, depend on who you think is stronger. Guys like Pain, SM Kabuto and MS Obito will win more times than not while Nagato outright stomps their asses. 

And the Sannin is not underrated to the least, ppl think Frog Song can solo Hashirama while Yomi Numa can sink PS.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Itachi or the S/T Hokages, depend on who you think is stronger. Guys like Pain, SM Kabuto and MS Obito will win more times than not while Nagato outright stomps their asses.
> 
> And the Sannin is not underrated to the least, ppl think Frog Song can solo Hashirama while Yomi Numa can sink PS.



itachi is out of the question since the manga did already clearfield that aspect. Oro as well surpassed Tobirama. Pain would never win against all 3 either as he himself admitted that Jiraiya alone could beat him. 

SM Kabuto without ET in my opinion is inferior to SM Jiraiya I am quoting myself... 


> As for comparing him to Jiraiya, I can't help but to see Jiraiya having the superior jutsus, and better versatility really.
> The way I see their abilities is like this.
> 
> 1- Kabuto has the cave attack which is Short-Mid range jutsu, and it needs a cave for it to work as it did. However, on the other hand, Jiraiya has the Summoning: Toad Mouth which works at all ranges, and it does not need a specific place, and it's even an A-Rank. Both jutsu were defeated by the Amatersu. From what I see, Jman's jutsu is better because of its range, and it can even capture the enemy. However, Kishi putted the excuse that itachi was protecting Sasuke, and that was he got hit.
> ...




Yes, Frog Song can solo Hashirama. 
Unless you can show Hashirama's feats that can break it if it got fired. 
otherwise, I don't remember it was stated or shown that Hashirama is immune to Genjutsu.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 14, 2015)

I know Frog Song can take Hashirama, the question is if Jiraiya even has chance to prep for it at start, given who he's facing. Assume he did, Jiraiya will eat some wood before the sound can reach to Hashi's ears. 

Frog Song is the only way for Jiraiya to defeat Kabuto, but that won't work because of his liquified body.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

It depends on how Hashirama normally fights really. Usually some people say a lot of retarded things as X-character
will start the fight with the strongest jutsu said character has, which obviously never happened from chapter 1 to chapter 700 for any character as far as I remember.



> Assume he did, Jiraiya will eat some wood before the sound can reach to Hashi's ears.



You think the wood is faster than the sound? 

The only problem for the Sannin against Hashirama is the Buddha. or that what I believe... 



> Frog Song is the only way for Jiraiya to defeat Kabuto, but that won't work because of his liquified body.


I don't see what does his liquified body have to do with his brain being trapped. And, no, if the huge Rassengan hit him, he
is getting utterly destroyed. There is no way he can survive that.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It depends on how Hashirama normally fights really. Usually some people say a lot of retarded things as X-character
> will start the fight with the strongest jutsu said character has, which obviously never happened from chapter 1 to chapter 700 for any character as far as I remember.
> 
> You think the wood is faster than the sound?
> ...



Hashi never shows his goofy attitude in fight, so it's more than likely that Jiraiya will take some Mokuton not some welcome speech.

The wood can hurt Jiraiya, while the sound takes time to work and Hashi can simply leave the range. Not every place has pipes to limit your mobility. 

Kabuto is completely unaffected under White Rage thanks to Snake detection and Liquified Body, which grants him the ability to close eyes and immune to sound effect. The huge Rasengan isn't any faster than Susanoo arrow and Kabuto can dodge it no problem


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## Nikushimi (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya and/or Oro individually are superior to Tobirama by feats though.



Not a chance.



> It won't take all 3 of them to defeat him, unless it's a lolcurfodderstomps.



All three would beat Tobirama as a team. But he is making them work for it.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

> [=Legendary Itachi;52884803]Hashi never shows his goofy attitude in fight, so it's more than likely that Jiraiya will take some Mokuton not some welcome speech.


We only saw him against Madara though. And even in the VOTE, he was like "I don't want to kill u"
type of thing. 


> The wood can hurt Jiraiya, while the sound takes time to work and Hashi can simply leave the range. Not every place has pipes to limit your mobility.



the Jutsu is long-range attack. It was stated that it can trap hundreds of opponents. Hashi's luck of knowledge is not helping him either to know what to do. You assume that he knows that this jutsu is and what it does, but he does not. 


> Kabuto is completely unaffected under White Rage thanks to Snake detection and Liquified Body, which grants him the ability to close eyes and immune to sound effect. The huge Rasengan isn't any faster than Susanoo arrow and Kabuto can dodge it no problem


The white Rage is ninjutsu, and it works in a completely different way. It does not effect the mind either. Frog Song does effect the mind, not the body. 



> The huge Rasengan isn't any faster than Susanoo arrow and Kabuto can dodge it no problem


I am talking about if it hits. In addition, the huge Rassengan's AOE if obviously grater than the Susanoo arrow that Kabuto was only a couple cm above it. 



> [=Nikushimi;52884840]Not a chance.


lol, yes. 



> All three would beat Tobirama as a team. But he is making them work for it.


Not a chance.  he's getting absolutly fodderstompped with absolutly no fight against all three.
As much as people want to be delusional about it, the manga has made Tobirama's limit clear in this regard. 
He can never take on more than 1 strong opponent at once from how the manga portrayed him against Kin & Gin.

When both Jiraiya (in base and with no intent to kill) and Oro (with shitty body) fought against 4-tails Narudo..


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We only saw him against Madara though. And even in the VOTE, he was like "I don't want to kill u"
> type of thing.
> 
> the Jutsu is long-range attack. It was stated that it can trap hundreds of opponents. Hashi's luck of knowledge is not helping him either to know what to do. You assume that he knows that this jutsu is and what it does, but he does not.
> ...



A lot of wood is used before the words, and any one of them can straight kill Jiraiya. Hashi lived under war period, being goofy in fight could cost his life. 

Human Path (Nagato) has no idea what the justu is either, yet he immediately figures out it's Genjutsu before going into the pipes. Pretty sure Hashi has greater experience and knowledge than Nagato to realize what the sound is.

Frog Song effects the mind only if ppl can hear it, otherwise it's completely useless. Kabuto can ignore all the sound around or he would've covered his ears under White Rage, like how the Uchiha bros do.

I have my doubts whether the Huge Rasengan can kill Kabuto assumed he can't dodge it, he has insane durability and regeneration, not to mention Oro Rebirth can troll the Rasengan easily.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

> =Legendary Itachi;52884976]A lot of wood is used before the words, and any one of them can straight kill Jiraiya. Hashi lived under war period, being goofy in fight could cost his life.


Jiraiya lived during 3 World Wars. 
Also, his oil & fire can burn down the woods. Usually people won't take it because "Woah, this is hashirama" even though the manga has never shown that the characters struggle with destroying the wood really. 


> Human Path (Nagato) has no idea what the justu is either, yet he immediately figures out it's Genjutsu before going into the pipes. Pretty sure Hashi has greater experience and knowledge than Nagato to realize what the sound is.


Pretty sure Nagato is Jiraiya's student, and not Hashirama. 
and as experience and knowledge we have never seen or known that Hashirama fought or know of such thing. You are just making baseless assumption based on Hashirama's power for the most part.

Needless to say, even though pain made that assumption, he still couldn't avoid it, did he? 


> Frog Song effects the mind only if ppl can hear it, otherwise it's completely useless. Kabuto can ignore all the sound around or he would've covered his ears under White Rage, like how the Uchiha bros do.


Useless. His body would actually work against him as water will make him hear it. Take Choji Vs Dosu for reference.  


> I have my doubts whether the Huge Rasengan can kill Kabuto assumed he can't dodge it, he has insane durability and regeneration, not to mention Oro Rebirth can troll the Rasengan easily.


Useless against Rassengan as well. He barely was able to move from Kid Naruto's Rassengan which is no where near Jiraiya's huge rassengan. Yes, he took Karin's healing ability, but who said she can survive that? 

As for the Rebirth, it takes a lot of chakra, and for a jutsu that was stated to be able to curve a mountain, I highly doubt it.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 14, 2015)

> It depends on how Hashirama normally fights really. Usually some people say a lot of retarded things as X-character



Hashirama doesnt need his most powerfull mokuton to stomp Jiraya. He is much faster, because he could fight on par with Madara, who's speed is far above Jiraya's. The Wood Dragon comes out - Jiraya is dead.



> We only saw him against Madara though. And even in the VOTE, he was like "I don't want to kill u"
> type of thing.



Madara was his friend. Thats why he was holding himself back.

Against Jiraya, the only thing he needs to stomp him is Wood Dragon.



> the Jutsu is long-range attack. It was stated that it can trap hundreds of opponents. Hashi's luck of knowledge is not helping him either to know what to do. You assume that he knows that this jutsu is and what it does, but he does not.



Hashirama is much faster than Jiraya, he can possibly speedblitz him. Wood Dragon only = GG.



> Not a chance. he's getting absolutly fodderstompped with absolutly no fight against all three.
> As much as people want to be delusional about it, the manga has made Tobirama's limit clear in this regard.
> He can never take on more than 1 strong opponent at once from how the manga portrayed him against Kin & Gin.
> 
> When both Jiraiya (in base and with no intent to kill) and Oro (with shitty body) fought against 4-tails Narudo..



*Hussain. with his stupid posts once again, with attempts to use off-panel fights nobody aside from Kishimoto himself knows about as proofs of anything.*

*You wanna talk about the limit? Alright, lets talk about Sannins limit. Show me any of Sannin's speed feats even close to those of Tobirama. Tobirama could tag Juubito several times. Show me anyone among the Sannin doing something even close to that.*


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## Veracity (Feb 14, 2015)

Are we literally arguing Hashirama vs Jirayia ? 

Hashirama would solo the Sannin casually.


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## Hachibi (Feb 14, 2015)

LolHussain

Not only he believe any of the Sannin is individually superior to Tobirama (which is false as fuck considering his feat against JJ Obito) but that Jiraiya has *any* chance to use Frog Song on Hashirama.

You never cease to amaze me


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya lived during 3 World Wars.
> Also, his oil & fire can burn down the woods. Usually people won't take it because "Woah, this is hashirama" even though the manga has never shown that the characters struggle with destroying the wood really.
> 
> Pretty sure Nagato is Jiraiya's student, and not Hashirama.
> ...



Hashi fights someone far above Jiraiya's league with much stronger Katon in his life. 

It doesn't take a genius to know how Genjutsu works, even Sakura and Shikamaru knows what Kabuto and Tayuya are doing in Part 1. . Being Jiraiya's student changes nothing since Nagato thought Jiraiya can't use Genjutsu.

Nevertheless, Kabuto can cancel the song with his own Sound jutsu even all things fail. He wouldn't suffer from hurting throat and keep coughing too unlike the poor toads. 

Except you forget he has SM + Oro's healing power now, which's vastly superior to his Part 1 self.

Its greatest feat is failing to breach Preta's hand, which's featless in other words.. :ignoramus


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

> =Legendary Itachi;52885206]Hashi fights someone far above Jiraiya's league with much stronger Katon in his life.


The wood still got burned though. 
Hashi defeated him with his Buddha... 



> It doesn't take a genius to know how Genjutsu works, even Sakura and Shikamaru knows what Kabuto and Tayuya are doing in Part 1. . Being Jiraiya's student changes nothing since Nagato thought Jiraiya can't use Genjutsu.


knowing how it works, and avoiding it are 2 different things. Shika still got caught by Tayuya's Genjutsu. Also, I wonde if that the reason why itachi's fans think all the characters lose to his finger genjutsu.  


> Nevertheless, Kabuto can cancel the song with his own Sound jutsu even all things fail. He wouldn't suffer from hurting throat and keep coughing too unlike the poor toads.


No, he can't. If the brain is trapped, and he can't even move a singe finger how is he going to use the jutsu? 



> Except you forget he has SM + Oro's healing power now, which's vastly superior to his Part 1 self.


Jiraiya has his own SM as well. And I don't remember anything about Oro's healing power, unless you mean the rebirth jutsu.  



> Its greatest feat is failing to breach Preta's hand, which's featless in other words.. :ignoramus



Pffff. :ignoramus
that was a little funny though. lol


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## Hachibi (Feb 14, 2015)

Also, how the fuck can you compare Madara and Jiraiya in anything. They aren't in the same damn _sport_


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 14, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> When I say Nagato, I mean the living version of the one that fought Killer Bee and Naruto - with the mobility problems - not 'prime' Nagato, if such a thing exists.



The one that also was Kabuto controlled with a fake Rinnegan.

The strongest the Sannin can take isn't hard to find. It is only that the battledome fixates on putting them against Hashirama types, Rinnegan users and Bijuu masters. 

Most recently they were put against Itachi (who they can easily collectively take) ... but he had Hashirama enhancements; the chakra capacity.

I'm saying we focus on the small portion the Sannin can't beat.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya lived during 3 World Wars.



 And Minato didn't. 



> Pretty sure Nagato is Jiraiya's student, and not Hashirama.
> and as experience and knowledge we have never seen or known that Hashirama fought or know of such thing. You are just making baseless assumption based on Hashirama's power for the most part.



 Yet Young Jiraiya always held back on Nagato and the gang. It doesn't even matter as Pa made it clear that Nagato has no knowledge of Genjutsu usage considering Jiraiya was a poor genjutsu user.

 There is no baseless assumption being made here, Hashirama beat a stronger Madara who fodderstomped the Kages in his weaker state. That alone implies the Kages get wrecked.



> Needless to say, even though pain made that assumption, he still couldn't avoid it, did he?



 That's true, but that depends on location and the fact that Hashirama's a superior sensor anyways. He's not getting caught by a diversion like that and he has Mokuton clones and bushin feints to avoid it anyways.



> Useless. His body would actually work against him as water will make him hear it. Take Choji Vs Dosu for reference.



 Who said he has to liquefy to avoid it when he can block his senses in the 1st place? 



> Useless against Rassengan as well. He barely was able to move from Kid Naruto's Rassengan which is no where near Jiraiya's huge rassengan. Yes, he took Karin's healing ability, but who said she can survive that?



 He can't liquefy to avoid it? His superior speed and white rage allows him to overpower SM Jiraiya anyways. There's also the fact that he can just Oro Rebirth and just chop Jiraiya in half.



> As for the Rebirth, it takes a lot of chakra, and for a jutsu that was stated to be able to curve a mountain, I highly doubt it.



 But SM Kabuto used it multiple times effortlessly did he not? He can also just passively absorb natural energy and use that for Oro Rebirth anyways, similar to how SM Naruto used Sage Chakra to use his FRS against Pain.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2015)

The way I view it the sannin were meant to be mid-kage level. 

Hiruzen was the first person introduced as kage level / set the bar for those that would be introduced after him. Hiruzen being older and slower made him weaker than was expected / low kage level. 

Orochimaru beating Hiruzen pretty handedly made Oro mid kage level. Portrayal made the other two sannin also mid kage level with Jiraiya's secret trump SM making him high kage level (if he successfully activates it).

The sannin's strength/fighting force is usually around the level of 3 mid kages except for when Jiraiya's in SM or starts in SM. That's enough to beat SM Naruto/MS Sasuke/ Itachi and others in that level of strength with high difficulty and maybe Minato or Tobirama with extreme diff. Anything higher than that and I think they start losing more often than winning. Jiraiya being or not being in SM changes things a pretty good deal too IMO.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 14, 2015)

The three Sannin, individually and without their respective power-ups, probably aren't much more than mid-tier Kage level fighters that hover above the likes of non-Mangekyō abusing Kakashi. If you add in Sennin Mōdō, Byakugō and the Yamata no Orochi to the mix, then all three are probably high-Kage level; their real strength lies in their synergy, experience, sheer level of endurance (two of them are practically invincible and Jiraiya isn't particularly easy to put down either) and just how many tricks they have.

I'm not sure about taking on apparent god tiers like Hashirama, who overwhelm them in every respect by the virtue of being one of the strongest 'norma' shinobi alive, but I at least think the likes of Nagato or Pain are within their reach.


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## Thunder (Feb 14, 2015)

Madara beat up five solid kage level shinobi (one of which being Tsunade of course). And Edo Madara _still_ considered Hashirama a worthy opponent, if not admitting inferiority to him outright. Even with his buffs.

Hashirama should have no problems beating up the Sannin. He's just that good. The Sannin as a group aren't bad themselves, and I think they'd edge out a win against Pain (and perhaps Nagato as well), like others have said. Between the three of them there's a lot of knowledge, power, and synergy. They're really a great team.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2015)

> =NarutoX28;52885419]And Minato didn't.


lol, Minato was on all 4 Ninja Wars.  


> Yet Young Jiraiya always held back on Nagato and the gang. It doesn't even matter as Pa made it clear that Nagato has no knowledge of Genjutsu usage considering Jiraiya was a poor genjutsu user.
> 
> There is no baseless assumption being made here, Hashirama beat a stronger Madara who fodderstomped the Kages in his weaker state. That alone implies the Kages get wrecked.



So, if his student does not know, there is no way others would know about it. 


- I don't what does that have to do with anything. Does madara use sound based Genjutsu? Please enlighten us.  

If anything it's further prove my point, people link Hashirama's knowledge to his power, which is pretty stupid. It's irrelevant how powerful madara is, he does not have those type of jutsu. Plain simple. 


> That's true, but that depends on location and the fact that Hashirama's a* superior sensor *anyways. He's not getting caught by a diversion like that and he has Mokuton clones and bushin feints to avoid it anyways.



lol. Give me one scan where Hashirama showed any sensory feet whatsoever.  
How on earth would his clones make him avoid it? You mean if they heard it, he won't hear it? :rofl

Like for example, if you are sitting in the class, and your classmate heard your teacher, you won't hear?  


> Who said he has to liquefy to avoid it when he can block his senses in the 1st place?


you don't get it, do you?
1
1

1
1



> He can't liquefy to avoid it? His superior speed and white rage allows him to overpower SM Jiraiya anyways. There's also the fact that he can just Oro Rebirth and just chop Jiraiya in half.



white rage is only mid-range jutsu. It also was effected because it was in a cave. So, it depends highly on the location. And I don't see why they can't attack the jutsu anyway. 


> But SM Kabuto used it multiple times effortlessly did he not? He can also just passively absorb natural energy and use that for Oro Rebirth anyways, similar to how SM Naruto used Sage Chakra to use his FRS against Pain.



Most of the times he used it was in a Genjutsu,  no? 

Yeah, but Naruto loses his SM after 3 FRS as well, no? 
So it's not limitless...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, Minato was on all 4 Ninja Wars.



 Yes because Minato was certainly around during the 1st ninja war. 




> So, if his student does not know, there is no way others would know about it.



 True though Pain deducted right away that it was a genjutsu.




> - I don't what does that have to do with anything. Does madara use sound based Genjutsu? Please enlighten us.



 Oh please, Madara's genjutsu activates much faster than Frog Song does.



> If anything it's further prove my point, people link Hashirama's knowledge to his power, which is pretty stupid. It's irrelevant how powerful madara is, he does not have those type of jutsu. Plain simple.



 It is relevant b/c Madara would fodderstomp Jiraiya any day of the month.




> lol. Give me one scan where Hashirama showed any sensory feet whatsoever.
> How on earth would his clones make him avoid it? You mean if they heard it, he won't hear it? :rofl



 His Senjutsu allowed Blind Madara to sense Tobirrama's surprise Hiraishin despite having no eyes. Even Jiraiya pisses himself at how Pain can dodge Jiraiya without looking at him. 

 Hashirama's also a perfect sage while Jiraiya's an imperfect sage. 



> Like for example, if you are sitting in the class, and your classmate heard your teacher, you won't hear?



 It doesn't matter if you can hear it. Those sound waves have to enter your brain. This is why Jiraiya was concerned about using it carelessly as it would just have him be detected. He also relied on a diversion instead of outright using it, so ...



> you don't get it, do you?
> 1
> 1
> 
> ...



 Dosu couldn't land his sound waves on Choujji until after he touched him. Frog Call however, uses sound waves to enter to the brain if the person can hear it. Even Dosu admitted he had to guess where Chouji's ear drums were just to attack.

 Apparently, Kabuto does outright state that liquefying his body makes him immune to sound and vibrations.

 1




> white rage is only mid-range jutsu. It also was effected because it was in a cave. So, it depends highly on the location. And I don't see why they can't attack the jutsu anyway.



 Why would it only be effective in a cave when it causes the air to vibrate?



> Most of the times he used it was in a Genjutsu,  no?



 No, he used it multiple times prior to Itachi trying to use Izanami. After Itachi was sliced in half due to trying to get it up and after his clash with Sasuke that occurred shortly after that was Kabuto finally caught in a genjutsu.



> Yeah, but Naruto loses his SM after 3 FRS as well, no?
> So it's not limitless...



 Well, he passively absorbs natural energy thanks to Jugo, so he'll be able to use sage chakra for longer. I do agree, it's not limitless though.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 15, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You mean the same Kakashi who has no knowledge on the Akatsuki's capabilities in general?
> 
> Yeah, and the Akatsuki underestimated Gaara's strength which was stated by Deidara.



Kakashi knows that Itachi slaughtered the infamous Uchiha Clan, that Kisame is a legendary mist swordsman, and that Deidara walked into the Hidden Sand village and knocked out the Kazekage on his own turf. He doesn't need to know the specifics about every single Jutsu they can potentially wield, he knows enough about what they can accomplish with them that his opinion should still be telling.

That the aforementioned accomplishments _still_ fail to prevent Kakashi from thinking that they simply couldn't approach Naruto when Jiraiya is around  is highly impressive mainly because Kakashi said this _knowing full well that the Akatsuki *aren't* at all afraid to go messing with *Kages*_.



> That had more to do with Jiraiya gathering intel on Pain then his actual power.



No it didn't.

After detecting Jiraiya, Nagato is visibly disturbed and answering Konan states:

_*"Someone has disturbed my rain's fall...and judging from their Chakra, it's someone dangerous.*_​
The underlined, the very basis for Nagato's concern, is completely irrelevant to mere intelligence gathering, but not to power.



> He wasn't even afraid to allow Konan to fight against Jiraiya before he only had one Pain arrive to face him.



Konan wasn't afraid to try and kill Obito.

What Pain wasn't afraid to do was have Konan hold off Jiraiya until he got there, which wasn't long, and she was advised to leave the moment he arrived (the one Pain body he arrived with was the same one capable of summoning any of the others as necessary).



Hachibi said:


> >Kusanagi destroying CT's core
> 
> And they say the Sanin are underrated.



People might be more concerned with your apparent disdain if you actually bothered to base it on some sound objections~. :33


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## ARGUS (Feb 15, 2015)

People compare the  sannin to characters that are over 2 tiers above them, and then they complain that they are underrated, them getting to such comparisons pretty much says otherwise, 

ofcourse they are getting clowned by people such as madara or hashirama and that isnt debatable at all 
afterall the sannin are the same bunch that lost to hanzo 

sannin are around mid kage level shinobi, with SM jiraiya being high kage  at best 
any god tiers or above kage level shinobi are out of their reach


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2015)

> [=NarutoX28;52887522]Yes because Minato was certainly around during the 1st ninja war.


Yes he was. 


As you can see, it was 27 years ago (from the 4th War time) when he saved Kushina from Kumo. At the time he was 14 years old. 

And we know the 1st War, when Tobirama got his ass kicked was 31 years ago.



So, Minato was 10 years old when Tobirama got killed by Kin & Gin. And therefore he was around during the 1st war. 



> True though Pain deducted right away that it was a genjutsu.


It does not matter either way since he couldn't do shit about it. 




> Oh please, Madara's genjutsu activates much faster than Frog Song does.


It does not matter. I am talking about the jutsu itself. Also, Madara's Genjutsu require him to look
directly into his opponent's eyes. 


> It is relevant b/c Madara would fodderstomp Jiraiya any day of the month.


None of my business. I am talking about specific things. Do not try to disperse the topic/point. 




> His Senjutsu allowed Blind Madara to sense Tobirrama's surprise Hiraishin despite having no eyes. Even Jiraiya pisses himself at how Pain can dodge Jiraiya without looking at him.
> 
> Hashirama's also a perfect sage while Jiraiya's an imperfect sage.


Who said it's Hashirama's SM? You?
Because Madara is a sensor by himself, like when he sensed Hashirama's chakra. So, please, prove that it was Hashirama's SM who allowed him to sense...  



> It doesn't matter if you can hear it. Those sound waves have to enter your brain. This is why Jiraiya was concerned about using it carelessly as it would just have him be detected. He also relied on a diversion instead of outright using it, so ...


If you hear it, that must be it entered your brain. 
Jiraiya was trying to bring all the paths together, and he was buying time for the frogs. 


> Dosu couldn't land his sound waves on Choujji until after he touched him. Frog Call however, uses sound waves to enter to the brain if the person can hear it. Even Dosu admitted he had to guess where Chouji's ear drums were just to attack.


Are you for real? 
He talked about how the water in the body conducts sound. Also, Choji was "rolling" to to speak, which Hashirama won't be doing anyway. 

 Apparently, Kabuto does outright state that liquefying





> his body makes him immune to sound and vibrations.
> 
> Link removed




Again, the sound in this jutsu works differently, and that's from Sasuke's statement that his bonds are creaking, which is because the sound is very powerful. That is also the reason why Kabuto mentioned the vibrations. However, the Frog Song does NOT work like that for God's sake.  


> Why would it only be effective in a cave when it causes the air to vibrate?



Obviously because the of the open space the sound won't be redirected as an echo. Even the light itself won't be as effective in a sunny day for example because of the light of the sun. 


> No, he used it multiple times prior to Itachi trying to use Izanami. After Itachi was sliced in half due to trying to get it up and after his clash with Sasuke that occurred shortly after that was Kabuto finally caught in a genjutsu.


I don't remember how many times he used it honestly, and I don't feel like looking it up anyway, so whatever. 



> Well, he passively absorbs natural energy thanks to Jugo, so he'll be able to use sage chakra for longer. I do agree, it's not limitless though.



We don't know for how long he can keep that up, which is irrelevant anyway since Jiraiya can stay with SM for as long as he wants anyway without any problem at all. 

Besides Jiraiya, Oro can also make Kabuto deactivate his SM with one touch as well...


----------



## Jad (Feb 15, 2015)

Obito with only Mangekyo Sharingan?

Imagine if I said Might Dai......

Sakumo Hatake and Might Dai, legends among legends


----------



## RBL (Feb 15, 2015)

Jad said:


> Obito with only Mangekyo Sharingan?
> 
> Imagine if I said Might Dai......
> 
> Sakumo Hatake and Might Dai, legends among legends



yeah dude, they are not beating the great might Dai


----------



## Trojan (Feb 15, 2015)

Theoretically Kisame hyped Jiraiya to be superior to the 7 swordsmen, and we know that Dai even with all 8 Gates
couldn't kill all of them. 

Jiraya = 8 Gate Gai, conformed? 
I mean he defeated JJ Obito, no?


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Theoretically Kisame hyped Jiraiya to be superior to the 7 swordsmen, and we know that Dai even with all 8 Gates
> couldn't kill all of them.
> 
> Jiraya = 8 Gate Gai, conformed?
> I mean he defeated JJ Obito, no?



Dai is featless and his 8 Gate isnt as powerfull as Guy's 8 Gate.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 15, 2015)

The only people all three together can't beat are Madara, Hashirama, and possibly Tobirama.

I don't know about Sage Kabuto but it would be cool to see Sannin no Dragonslayers.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 15, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The only people all three together can't beat are Madara, Hashirama, and possibly Tobirama.
> 
> I don't know about Sage Kabuto but it would be cool to see Sannin no Dragonslayers.



How the heck does Tobirama stand any chance whatsoever, seriously? 
I knew he was overrated quite a bit, but did not realise that he is overrated this much.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 15, 2015)

Tobirama seems to hang out competitively at the god tier level of combat, despite his move set being amazing at a technical sense but not mecha mountain busting.

I've said this before as well, the manga got so screwy towards the end, I have a hard time relating anything Tobirama did to Juubitodara to any of the characters who existed during the moderately consistent portions of the manga.  I don't think the Sannin can beat the true god tiers like Hashirama and Madara, so if Tobirama is there, he's probably just on that other level that wins.  If he's not really there, but in some kind of psuedo god tier, then he's probably on the level they can overcome him.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 15, 2015)

> =The Pirate on Wheels;52893897]Tobirama seems to hang out competitively at the god tier level of combat,


Not even close. 


> despite his move set being amazing at a technical sense but not mecha mountain busting.


Which is why he is not even close to their level. 



> I've said this before as well, the manga got so screwy towards the end, I have a hard time relating anything Tobirama did to Juubitodara to any of the characters who existed during the moderately consistent portions of the manga.


The War arc was the end. It's in this same arc where was saw the level of those who floored Tobirama, and the manga portrayed them to be much higher than him.



> I don't think the Sannin can beat the true god tiers like Hashirama and Madara, so if Tobirama is there,


Except Tobirama is not there. not even close whatsoever. 


> he's probably just on that other level that wins.  If he's not really there, but in some kind of psuedo god tier, then he's probably on the level they can overcome him.



All 3 together would fodderstomps him. There is no question about that. 
It was even stated that Oro by himself surpassed Tobirama in
1- His ET is FAR more advance than Tobirama.
2- Oro's talent is far superior to Tobirama as well. Since Hiruzen (who's more talented than Tobirama since a young age) stated that Oro's surpassed his as well.

If we allow both ET then Oro curfodderstomps Tobirama. If we take ET from both of them, then Tobirama loses his strongest attack, and he has left are some water jutsu, that can't even harm, save for 1. 

I honestly, can't see him winning at all against Oro, or Jiraiya. He might win against Tsunade though...


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 15, 2015)

> How the heck does Tobirama stand any chance whatsoever, seriously?
> I knew he was overrated quite a bit, but did not realise that he is overrated this much.



Seriously? He is tiers above aither of them in speed.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 15, 2015)

> They stand no chance against nagato,


Absolutely ridiculous logic. There are literally multiple mid-kage class ninja that can effectively beat Living Crippled malnourished Nagato. 



> One Boss sized ST from deva one shotted all the boss toads
> now if we have nagato here, whose abilties are much better than his puppets, and we have this feat replicated much easily and more effectively


His puppets are mobile immortal corpses, Nagato is an old, crippled, sick man who hasn't seen direct combat in decades and who likely has a disgustingly bad resting heart rate. 



> Preta negates over half of them,
> others are evaded or shat on by missiles, ST, and summons


Nothing is evaded, literally. He can't physically evade a shuriken that I'd throw at him. 

Preta doesn't negate 5% Katsuya rolling on his crippled ass. 



> Preta path shits on alll of these


I would love to see Preta Path sap up an ocean of a Senjutsu swamp or a multi-kilometer flame wave, Nagato would explode from the Natural Energy crushing his poor excuse for a living body nearly instantly. The dude exerts himself to physical injury by simply releasing his own chakra, the Natural Energy would drop him to his knees and he'd pass out. 



> Asura limbs can assist in his mobility so does the bird summons, so thats not an issue
> most of his offense require no movement at all so thats also not an issue


No they cannot, did you see him manifesting legs on panel? I didn't. 



> Good thing that preta doesnt require any movement and helps him negate it just fine


First of all, the likely hood that it sucks these techniques up immediately is comically bad. 

On top of that, they're enhanced with Natural Energy, which his sickly, crippled, nearly-dead body cannot begin to harbor. 



> not when CT is aimed directly at them,
> they are not busting the core nor are they breaking free
> CT is not needed though,
> none oof his large scale techniques are,
> ...


BT is not pulling Orochimaru to begin with, he instantly transforms into Hydra the moment begins getting pulled and literally crushes Nagato who's panic-ST is not pushing Hydra back. Or, he spits Kusanagi out, 10,000 snakes, or his own body out before Nagato puts his hand on them, none of which require a seal, and none of which Asura's arms or Preta is going to protect him from. 

If he can't
1. Avoid it with movement (He's Crippled, Hydra is too large)
2. Sap it into nothing with Preta (Snakes, a sword and Orochimaru himself cannot be absorbed)
3. Repel it with ST (He's already using BT against Orochimaru)
or 
4. Counter it Asura's arms (Too many snakes, Kusanagi extends past Asura's arms cutting through them and/or grabbing them results in Orochimaru failing to be pulled)

He's not getting Orochimaru's soul. 

Going after Tsunade first is comical, the moment he pulls her, Orochimaru shunshins at him with shadow snake hands (which cannot be absorbed and captured God Tree Branches) and Jiraiya makes two Yomi Numa seals, and Nagato is now below the surface pulling nothing or he's wrapped up by numerous snakes his Asura hands couldn't effectively parry.

He can't move, at all. His only option is to blow a massive ST out initially, summon a bird, and get off the surface. From there, he will still lose to the overwhelming summoning power of these ninja coupled with the healing capabilities of Orochimaru & Tsunade.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Theoretically Kisame hyped Jiraiya to be superior to the 7 swordsmen, and we know that Dai even with all 8 Gates
> couldn't kill all of them.
> 
> Jiraya = 8 Gate Gai, conformed?
> I mean he defeated JJ Obito, no?



1. Dai is not Gai.
2. Where does it say Dai failed to kill the 7 Sworsdmen?
3. Why would Kisame compare Jiraiya to the generation of the 7 Swordsmen that Dai fought, more than 20 years later?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. Dai is not Gai.
> 2. Where does it say Dai failed to kill the 7 Sworsdmen?
> 3. Why would Kisame compare Jiraiya to the generation of the 7 Swordsmen that Dai fought, more than 20 years later?



1- Irrelevant. Since part 1 it was stated that the 8th Gate user is stronger than all the Hokages. Even if Dai became stronger than Hashirama, "Prime Hiruzen", BM Minato, only rather than being on Juubi's host level, that's still way too powerful, even if he became only stronger than someone like Tobirama, that's still prove Jiraiya's power. And please do not tell me that Dai who trained 20 years for this jutsu still sucks at it to the point where he can't even reach some one like Tobirama's power.  

2- In the manga he faced those people
4
The fat one was later killed by Kisame, so we know for a fact that he couldn't have possibly been killed in this battle. Raiga apparently Kishi approved of him, and we know he killed himself in the filler against Konoha team. The one with the ANBU and the one with the axe and hammer both became later on with a different generation of swordsmen (The one with Zabuza), so they couldn't have been killed in this battle either. The other 3 may or may not have been killed though 

- Because that's what he did?


----------



## Bonly (Feb 16, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> 2. Where does it say Dai failed to kill the 7 Sworsdmen?



It wasn't said but more so shown kinda. Here we can see the group of swordsmen Dai went up against. One of them is the previous wielder of Samehada(forgot his name but he's the fat one with long hair) and yet as we saw Kisame ended up killing that same guy and took Samehada from him So that means that Dai failed to kill all seven of them, not sure how many he did kill but all we know is that one lived for sure.

Edit: Darn it Based Hussain beat me to the punch, I guess one could say it happened in a flash


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not even close.
> 
> Which is why he is not even close to their level.
> 
> ...



You can state he's not even close until you're blue in the face, but that's not going to help anyone understand why you say that.

If your reason is that Tobirama tends to stab people in the neck instead of use an attack that changes the geography, well, that's not a good reason, because he fought and challenged people who could do that in the storyline and history and came out victorious of competitive, and it only makes sense that he did so.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> 1- Irrelevant. Since part 1 it was stated that the 8th Gate user is stronger than all the Hokages. Even if Dai became stronger than Hashirama, "Prime Hiruzen", BM Minato, only rather than being on Juubi's host level, that's still way too powerful, even if he became only stronger than someone like Tobirama, that's still prove Jiraiya's power. And please do not tell me that Dai who trained 20 years for this jutsu still sucks at it to the point where he can't even reach some one like Tobirama's power.
> 
> 2- In the manga he faced those people
> Bijuu who can help coach him
> ...




1. As i remember, Kakashi stated that. So its not much of a proof. Dai is featless and his 8 gate is not as powerfull as Gai's. Also, given all things Gai and Dai has done with their 8 gate, it make no sense at all.
2. Doesnt matter, since he is featless and his 8 gate is weak.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> It wasn't said but more so shown kinda. Here we can see the group of swordsmen Dai went up against. One of them is the previous wielder of Samehada(forgot his name but he's the fat one with long hair) and yet as we saw Kisame ended up killing that same guy and took Samehada from him So that means that Dai failed to kill all seven of them, not sure how many he did kill but all we know is that one lived for sure.
> 
> Edit: Darn it Based Hussain beat me to the punch, I guess one could say it happened in a flash



Doesnt matter at all. Dai is featless and his 8 gate is featless. 

And Hussain is nothing more than a debater with delusional and trolling posts. He is bad at debating, because he almost always writes some delusional cr*p, which he cant back up with good evidences.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

> 2. Doesnt matter, since he is featless and his 8 gate is weak.




I wrote an entire essay detailing to you why this is bad to say, and you haven't stopped.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> I wrote an entire essay detailing to you why this is bad to say, and you haven't stopped.



And i answered that essay, but anyway...

Dai couldnt kill 7 swordsmen with his 8 gate. His 8 gate is weak.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He fought and challenged people who could do that in the storyline and history and came out victorious of competitive, and it only makes sense that he did so.



He challenged them, yeah, but which ones did he actually come out victorious against?

When Madara admits that Hashirama is even stronger than he is Izuna just finds it astonishing that there's actually somebody stronger than his big bro _(1)_, and if it took Tobirama from that time until they were _grown men_ to ever beat _him_ then...it makes zero sense that he'd be able to hang with their older brothers, especially not when he never contested Madara being a trauma of his (his only response being "you don't even have any idea, bro") and Hashirama can shut him up just by flexing his Chakra.

He isn't able to compete with them and he never has been able to.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You can state he's not even close until you're blue in the face, but that's not going to help anyone understand why you say that.
> 
> If your reason is that Tobirama tends to stab people in the neck instead of use an attack that changes the geography, well, that's not a good reason, because he fought and challenged people who could do that in the storyline and history and came out victorious of competitive, and it only makes sense that he did so.



- Because his feats are no where close to them. In the past people said the same thing to overrate the heck out of him. However, when I opened a thread about Tobirama Vs Madara those same people said it's a stomp. They only overrate him in different threads to make him look good because he is "Hokage" Nothing more, nothing less.

If I opened a thread "Tobirama Vs Madara" or "Tobirama Vs Hashirama" Are you ready to make a case where he gives them a high difficult fight? 

-  mmm, not sure what do you mean exactly to be honest. 



> because he fought and challenged people who could do that in the storyline and history and came out victorious of competitive,



Like who? 
the only character he defeated is Izuna. He lost all of his other fights. 

he lost against Hiruzen's clone
He lost against Kin and Gin twice (Portrayed to not stand a chance) 
He lost against Madara (he lost in like 1 or 2 seconds)
and he lost against Obito (lost in 1 or 2 seconds, the only reason he survived is because he was an ET)


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## Bonly (Feb 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Doesnt matter at all. Dai is featless and his 8 gate is featless.



Doesn't matter if think he's featless or not, doesn't change the fact that he failed to kill all seven of the swordsmen.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Doesn't matter if think he's featless or not, doesn't change the fact that he failed to kill all seven of the swordsmen.



Because he is weak and his 8 Gate is weak compare to Gai's 8 Gate.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> However, when I opened a thread about Tobirama Vs Madara those same people said it's a stomp.



Yes it is. And Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sannin. 



> - Because his feats are no where close to them.



Wrong. They are no where close to Tobirama in terms of speed.


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## Bonly (Feb 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Because he is weak and his 8 Gate is weak compare to Gai's 8 Gate.



And? Did I say or suggest otherwise when I replied to Niku saying "Where does it say Dai failed to kill the 7 Sworsdmen?"?


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

Bonly said:


> And? Did I say or suggest otherwise when I replied to Niku saying "Where does it say Dai failed to kill the 7 Sworsdmen?"?



Ok. I just thought you are with Hussain about Dai's 8 Gate.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

He beat Izuna, when Izuna and Madara were supposed to be on a similar level of power.  Tobirama, prior to learning Madara powered up, felt like he could go stop Madara when he sensed his power, and Tobirama is generally pretty good about knowing his limitations.  Given that the 5 kage couldn't defeat Madara, and Tobirama possibly could, as Madara later admitted during the hiraishin-giri exchange, then that would put him on a level that's out of reach.  Then again so were Madara and Hashirama and we saw how that turned out when we actually got to see them fight.  

But the manga has always had two branches of power, with both of them supposing to be equal.  Say, the Asura route, and the Indra route.  The Asura route is the one where you have high strength, big ninjutsu, and overwhelming firepower.  The bijuu, the most of the Senju, Naruto, ect.  The other route is the speed and precision route.  Minato, Tobirama, Itachi, Sasuke with his shunshin and chidori eiso and blades, ect.  Neither path was portrayed to be definitely better than the other, and it was up to the individual.  

I'm leaning towards Tobirama and Izune being a 4.5, while regular Madara is on the 5.0 tier, while everyone else maxes at 4.0. (Minato without 50% Kyuubi) So it's a disadvantaged fight he can win, while the Sannin are collectively on the 4.0/4.5 tier.  Or something like that.

*For other people:*

Combing over Tobirama's performance and statements against Jubito and such, and looking at the context such as the edos intentionally putting themselves in more dangerous and suicidal positions because they couldn't die, I have to say that Tobirama looked much better than Minato, who was boosted by 50% of the kyuubi.  Minato was supposed to be on a level above most kage and individual sannin, and I can't pretend that the 50% cloak that pushed Naruto into the high kage bracket did nothing at all for him.  Tobirama matching, or arguably exceeding that performance means something, and fits in line with him being closer to the god level.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels:

You think because Tobirama came later on in the story that makes his feats automatically superior to anyone (?) who came before, or has not been raised up in the War arc. I honestly tried to see what led you to this conclusion, and I still can't figure out those astonishing feats of Tobirama that made you dumbfounded ....

For example, if we came to Tobirama's jutsu he only has like 13 jutsu or so.  Out of them he has the  which is useless for him anyway since can't use it by himself. And he has the Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi which is unlike Minato who is superior to him with this jutsu, Tobirama can't use it with his clones, and even if he some how managed to do so, it's still useless as it stills need another person to make the attack as well. 

Now, with those 2 jutsu out of the way since they are useless on 1 on 1 for him , what amazed you so much to the point that you believe that Kishi fucked up the power level for everyone who came in this war?

Is it Tobirama's  5 needles 

That you believe to be superior to Jiraiya's needles? 


Or perhaps was it the fact that Tobirama's water jutsu that cut down the Tree's roots
amazed you that much?

compared to say Fukakzuku's tongue?


Perhaps it's Tobirama using clones that was so amazing and out of the world? 
Because if that's the case, then Jiraiya can use them as well...

Tobirama has a fabulous water dragon from B rank? Although inferior in its typing, but Jiraiya
has a B-Rank fire jutsu as well..

Or you can take the swamp which is A-Rank with superior typing as well. 

I am sure Tobirama did not show any elemental jutsu in this scale in the war, did he? 
(1)

If it's about his sensing abilities, Jiraiya has his physical sensing barrier as well


and the Databook states that he has sensing abilities in SM even without the barrier.

As if the thing amazed you so much was that Tobirama can crack an already weakened wall, then isn't Jiraiya feats of sending a boss summon flying even more impressive?
(1)
(1)

The only things left for Tobirama are
1- watered down FTG and FTG slash
2- ET and the explosion tags. 

Jiraiya has SM and Frog Song which is pretty much a 1 shot jutsu.
and no matter how much I think about it, I can't see how his Kunai slash is stronger than say
the massive Rassengan,  or even the small one, can you explain how? 

That's and Jiraiya still has MUCH more jutsu that I haven't covered here....

What Tobirama did in this war besides those feats are really only teleporting others..
He was mainly support and barely attacking at all besides his first attack on obito...


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

> =The Pirate on Wheels;52898334]He beat Izuna, when Izuna and Madara were supposed to be on a similar level of power.


No they were not. Itachi was proven to be ignorant and nothing of what he said was true. Also, the Databook state that he is next to madara, not equal to him. Keep in mind that is MS, NOT EMS. 



> Tobirama, prior to learning Madara powered up, felt like he could go stop Madara when he sensed his power, and Tobirama is generally pretty good about knowing his limitations.


No, he did not. He said "*WE*" which means ALL of them, not him alone...




> Given that the 5 kage couldn't defeat Madara, and Tobirama possibly could, as Madara later admitted during the hiraishin-giri exchange, then that would put him on a level that's out of reach.  Then again so were Madara and Hashirama and we saw how that turned out when we actually got to see them fight.


Madara did not admit anything for him. Tobirama's fans were the one twisting his words. Madara stated clearly that only Hashirama was the one who can go toe to toe with him in the flashback
(1)


> But the manga has always had two branches of power, with both of them supposing to be equal.  Say, the Asura route, and the Indra route.  The Asura route is the one where you have high strength, big ninjutsu, and overwhelming firepower.  The bijuu, the most of the Senju, Naruto, ect.  The other route is the speed and precision route.  Minato, Tobirama, Itachi, Sasuke with his shunshin and chidori eiso and blades, ect.  Neither path was portrayed to be definitely better than the other, and it was up to the individual.


Except this is not true. We do know that speed > MS from Minato vs obito and Tobirama Vs Izuna, just as we know SM is also superior to MS users. The only thing makes itachi and sasuke in there is based on popularity, not evidence in the manga as we were told for example that Jiraiya > itachi. People puts excuses because itachi is obviously more popular than Jiraiya, and that's it. 



> I'm leaning towards Tobirama and Izune being a 4.5, while regular Madara is on the 5.0 tier, while everyone else maxes at 4.0. (Minato without 50% Kyuubi) So it's a disadvantaged fight he can win, while the Sannin are collectively on the 4.0/4.5 tier.  Or something like that.



I don't know from where you brought up this 4.5 and 5. Every time Tobirama was brought up, it's to show that he is inferior to those who came after him. It was proven that he is inferior to Oro, Kabuto, base Minato, and even young Hiruzen. He is always brought up as inferior in the manga SEVERAL times. 

Not a single time was he EVER shown, or stated to be better than anyone came after him. As I said people just overrate him when he is no where near as good
as they make him out to be...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

> You think because Tobirama came later on in the story that makes his feats automatically superior to anyone (?)



No.  I think that when Golden Boy gets what should be a massive boost, and Tobirama is still performing tandem moves with him, it means that Tobirama was above Normal Minato to begin with.  Normal Minato being at the top of the shinobi world, with "Everyone striving for his level."  So base Tobirama was automatically above the best the current ages had to offer.  Tobirama only looks weak if you forget who he's playing with, and take his jutsu in isolation.  He's got KCM Minato+reflexes, hiraishin/ranged attacks and is a technician, noted by Madara to be so deadly precisely because of his un-matched timing and execution of his jutsu.

I do think that the feats/portrayal/narrative/consistency of the last chapters are all screwy, and that makes it difficult to have a consistent opinion on characters.  F/R made a good point with the flash back, and I said myself that Hashirama's actual showdown with Madara provides a counter-example to my reasoning.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

I need to review for me example after an hour, but just a fast response. 

Those are when Tobirama is brought up to be compared with the others.

1- 
(1)
(1)

As you can see, he brought up as being inferior to both Kabuto and Oro in ET.

2- 


Cheeky (little) Bastard


*Spoiler*: __ 





> 飛雷神互瞬回しの術 Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu/
> 
> 
> Ninjutsu
> ...






Here he is also brought up to be inferior to Minato in shunshin, FTG, and its jutsu



*Spoiler*: __ 





> Konoha
> Hundred Leaf Collection #71
> 
> "I put a Marking on him."
> ...






3- 


> So Hiruzen may not be the strongest Hokage, but he's still godly as hell, from his entry.
> 
> 
> Hiruzen earned the title of professor for being a researcher. He was trained by both Hashirama and Tobirama, as the man that would succeed them. At a young age he showed greater talent than Tobirama. All five nature alterations, Hidden (I think it means Clan based techniques), Genjutsu, all ninjutsu existing in Konoha which explains his reputation as the professor. Hence the essence of Hiruzen is his talent with ninjutsu. Everyone in the village is his family member



He is also brought to be inferior to Hiruzen in term of talent at the very least. The same Hiruzen who said his talent is nothing to Oro (IIRC)

So, the thing is, Kishi made sure to bring Tobirama as one who has been surpassed by all those who came after him and learned his jutsu...

now, I have to study...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

> No, he did not. He said "WE" which means ALL of them, not him alone...



I was referring to when Tobirama said he was going to leave by himself to go fight Madara if everyone else was going to have talk-y time and let the situation outside escalate.  You know.  Shortly after he crushed a wall with chakra sensing.  I don't think Tobirama would have acted alone if he felt he'd lose without Hashirama there to solo.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> No.  I think that when Golden Boy gets what should be a massive boost, and Tobirama is still performing tandem moves with him, it means that Tobirama was above Normal Minato to begin with.  Normal Minato being at the top of the shinobi world, with "Everyone striving for his level."  So base Tobirama was automatically above the best the current ages had to offer.  Tobirama only looks weak if you forget who he's playing with, and take his jutsu in isolation.  He's got KCM Minato+reflexes, hiraishin/ranged attacks and is a technician, noted by Madara to be so deadly precisely because of his un-matched timing and execution of his jutsu.
> 
> I do think that the feats/portrayal/narrative/consistency of the last chapters are all screwy, and that makes it difficult to have a consistent opinion on characters.  F/R made a good point with the flash back, and I said myself that Hashirama's actual showdown with Madara provides a counter-example to my reasoning.



Yes, I believe everyone agree that MS Kakashi and Base Gai, and B were also stronger than Naruto who got BM. Just like how Sakura is also stronger than BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke since they got the Sage's power up, while she did just fine with Kaguya without them. :rofl 

anyway, since the moment they put their feats in the ground Tobirama admitted his inferiority whether you want to accept it or not, that won't change anything...
and since your claim is entirely based on completely false ground that the manga CLEARLY, with STRIGHT FORWARD showed that Tobirama is inferior to BASE Minato, none of what you said hold any amount of truth whatsoever. It's just fantasy you drew in your mind that has nothing to do with reality.  


> He's got KCM Minato+reflexes, hiraishin/ranged attacks and is a technician,



Again, you should distinguish between your own headcanon, and between the "real" canon. I don't think Kishi can help you further than saying it directly to you. It's really even below the basic reading comprehension since a straight forward statement by TOBIRAMA HIMSELF. 



> I was referring to when Tobirama said he was going to leave by himself to go fight Madara if everyone else was going to have talk-y time and let the situation outside escalate. You know. Shortly after he crushed a wall with chakra sensing. I don't think Tobirama would have acted alone if he felt he'd lose without Hashirama there to solo.


Yes he did very well by himself. That kinda remind me of the Kages when they told Naruto they would stop Madara, or when Naruto said he can end
the War by himself. Obviously both were proven right, don't you think? 

and as u can see, you failed to prove anything, you're imagining in your own that Tobirama is better than anyone, but when I brought to you what the manga
ACTUALLY stated, you decided to ignore it, and base your opinion in fan-fitcion that does not exist...

Tobirama was inferior to everyone the current world has to offer as shown to be inferior to young Hiruzem base Minato, part 1 Oro, and Kabuto...
I have no clue what manga that you're reading where  Tobirama is anywhere near those characters. Perhaps they are chapters that I don't have, or haven't read yet...


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Izuna and Madara were supposed to be on a similar level of power.



That was a mistranslation, though.



> Tobirama, prior to learning Madara powered up, felt like he could go stop Madara when he sensed his power, and Tobirama is generally pretty good about knowing his limitations.



It was pre-powerup Madara that Tobirama had traumatic memories of, and base Hashi that stopped him with just his Chakra.

I would think that Tobirama generally being pretty good at knowing his limitations would just give us a reason to assume that when he spoke about killing Madara he didn't mean in a straight up fight all by himself.



> Given that the 5 kage couldn't defeat Madara, and Tobirama possibly could, as Madara later admitted during the hiraishin-giri exchange, then that would put him on a level that's out of reach.



Madara admitted no such thing, he simply recalled how Tobirama had a habit of capitalizing on openings left when the opponent's guard had been let down, which in this case would be how Madara's attention was centered on the kids and the Tailed Beasts.

He was trying to blindsight him and it didn't even work. That does not put him halfway between Madara and everybody else any more than Tsunade trying to catch him after playing dead.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> Now, with those 2 jutsu out of the way since they are useless on 1 on 1 for him , what amazed you so much to the point that you believe that Kishi fucked up the power level for everyone who came in this war?



His Hiraishin is obviously not useless in a fight against any sannin. His speed is tiers superior to the speed of any sannin, because he could put a FTG mark on Juubito and tag him several times more. Tobirama's speed allows him to speedblitz any sannin.

Kishi didnt f*cked up sannin power levels, but in terms of speed, they are not even remotively close to Tobirama. No matter how powerfull you are, if your opponent can kill you and is much faster than you - you are dead. 



> Is it Tobirama's 5 needles
> Spoiler:
> 
> That you believe to be superior to Jiraiya's needles?
> ...



All these jutsu's are useless against Tobirama's speed. 



> Perhaps it's Tobirama using clones that was so amazing and out of the world?
> Because if that's the case, then Jiraiya can use them as well...
> 
> Tobirama has a fabulous water dragon from B rank? Although inferior in its typing, but Jiraiya
> ...



Jiraya doesnt have reaction speed to use those techniques, including the swamp, before Tobirama closes the distance and speedblitz him. Sensing wont help Jiraya at all.



> As if the thing amazed you so much was that Tobirama can crack an already weakened wall, then isn't Jiraiya feats of sending a boss summon flying even more impressive?
> (1)
> (1)
> 
> ...



Tobirama speedblitz Jiraya before he makes Frog Song, or goes SM.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> That was a mistranslation, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was that a mis-translation?  Huh.  Do you have the fixed scan?

I thought Tobirama indicated that he didn't think any of the current generation shinobi would be able to do anything to Madara, so I'm not sure how much help he'd expect from them if Hashirama wasn't going to assist him.  I'll double check.

EDIT:  It was Sarutobi who told Orochimaru he doesn't understand.

As for the blindside, I thought Madara said like in his current for even that tactic won't work on him, or that since he got Hashirama's sage energy, he's gone out of Tobirama's reach.  Implying that he used to be in Tobirama's kill zone.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except this is not true. We do know that speed > MS from Minato vs obito and Tobirama Vs Izuna, just as we know SM is also superior to MS users. The only thing makes itachi and sasuke in there is based on popularity, not evidence in the manga as we were told for example that Jiraiya > itachi. People puts excuses because itachi is obviously more popular than Jiraiya, and that's it.





This doesn't reflect my beliefs.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 16, 2015)

Madara also mentioned Edo Tensei limiting Senju Bros power(which was mentioned again in DB4) and hyped Tobirama. Madara actually hyping someone is a big deal. Considering he thought about current Gokage as trash. Imo - Tobirama was decisively weaker but still strong enough to be dangerous when conditions are in his favor. 

Izuna being Madara's equal was retconned iirc. He was called equal way back in Uchiha Bros battle. But in flashback he looked clearly inferior - hyping his brother and getting Sharingan later. 

Just my 2 rubles.

-snip-


----------



## Hachibi (Feb 16, 2015)

Can someone explain to me how Dai is revelant?


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 16, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Can someone explain to me how Dai is revelant?






*Spoiler*: __ 



8 Gates by itself should put user above general Kage level - it was common knowledge. Even with Dai being a lot weaker than Gai(which is obvious) 8 Gates are 8 Gates. I'd understand Suigetsu brother surviving but the rest should have been killed near instantly. Maybe Suikazan and Raiga escaped via Hidden Mist or Dai's Gates run out after a couple of punches. Still doesn't make much sense.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Genin Tenten>Raiga>8th Gate Dai>Most Kages


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> 8 Gates by itself should put user above general Kage level - it was common knowledge. Even with Dai being a lot weaker than Gai(which is obvious) 8 Gates are 8 Gates. I'd understand Suigetsu brother surviving but the rest should have been killed near instantly. Maybe Suikazan and Raiga escaped via Hidden Mist or Dai's Gates run out after a couple of punches. Still doesn't make much sense.



8 Gate's power depends on the users power. It increase users capabilities. And the gate itself might be a lot weaker than that of Gai. Dai is still pretty much featless.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 16, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 8 Gate's power depends on the users power. It increase users capabilities. And the gate itself might be a lot weaker than that of Gai. Dai is still pretty much featless.


8 Gates gets world-wide recognition as a power-up that puts you above Kage-lvl. No ifs or buts. Madara recognized "Red Steam", Minato knew about and was shocked that Gai could use it and Kakashi stated several times about the kind of power up it is. Gates effectiveness vary between users that's true but everything we know about the final Gate points towards it being "above Kage" by definition. You can argue that Dai's body wasn't able to handle the strain and he died a mere moments after using Evening Elephant. But even one Elephant when properly directed is enough to wipe out 7 Swordsmen in one sweep.


----------



## Hachibi (Feb 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> 8 Gates by itself should put user above general Kage level - it was common knowledge. Even with Dai being a lot weaker than Gai(which is obvious) 8 Gates are 8 Gates. I'd understand Suigetsu brother surviving but the rest should have been killed near instantly. Maybe Suikazan and Raiga escaped via Hidden Mist or Dai's Gates run out after a couple of punches. Still doesn't make much sense.




*Spoiler*: __ 



It's basically a plot hole at this point. Still, the Sannin can't do much against Red Gate, even if the user is Part 1 Lee.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

Oro LACs into the earth and any red gate user dies more often than not.  Gate users are awesome but sadly one dimensional.  Minus Kakashi.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> 8 Gates gets world-wide recognition as a power-up that puts you above Kage-lvl. No ifs or buts. Madara recognized "Red Steam", Minato knew about and was shocked that Gai could use it and Kakashi stated several times about the kind of power up it is. Gates effectiveness vary between users that's true but everything we know about the final Gate points towards it being "above Kage" by definition. You can argue that Dai's body wasn't able to handle the strain and he died a mere moments after using Evening Elephant. But even one Elephant when properly directed is enough to wipe out 7 Swordsmen in one sweep.



 But it wasn't b/c Kisame killed off the Fatso.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Was that a mis-translation?  Huh.  Do you have the fixed scan?
> 
> I thought Tobirama indicated that he didn't think any of the current generation shinobi would be able to do anything to Madara, so I'm not sure how much help he'd expect from them if Hashirama wasn't going to assist him.  I'll double check.
> 
> ...




still does not change the fact that itachi is ignorant though, and all of what he said was proven wrong. 


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> This doesn't reflect my beliefs.



I honestly do not know what you're trying to say. 
though you still keep running from the manga statement to your own fantasies. 


Alex Payne said:


> Madara also mentioned Edo Tensei limiting Senju Bros power(which was mentioned again in DB4) and hyped Tobirama. Madara actually hyping someone is a big deal. Considering he thought about current Gokage as trash. Imo - Tobirama was decisively weaker but still strong enough to be dangerous when conditions are in his favor.
> 
> Izuna being Madara's equal was retconned iirc. He was called equal way back in Uchiha Bros battle. But in flashback he looked clearly inferior - hyping his brother and getting Sharingan later.
> 
> ...



The Tobirama we saw in the war was at almost his full power. 

Though I don't know when the DB4 mentioned anything about that. Do you have a scan/translation or something for you claim?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

My fantasies where the group I really really like get contested or loses to the guy I don't really care about?

Ah man, I fantasize about that all day long.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> still does not change the fact that itachi is ignorant though, and * all of what he said was proven wrong. *



 Even Itachi's statement about attaining the EMS?


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

No, your fantasy thinking that Tobirama is better than X, Y, and Z
and when showing otherwise you ignore the manga, and repeat the same thing.  

You claim That Tobirama is better than Oro (and the sannin), I gave you the manga statement that Oro has
surpassed Tobirama in his biggest/strongest jutsu. You ignored it. Actually, I even forgot how Oro put Tobirama 
in his place and completely stopped him.  

The same thing with Hiruzen, Kabuto, and Minato. But you still keep ignoring the manga for fanon Tobirama. 

anyway, it does not really matter.... I made my point
and I now at least know that there is nothing to back up Tobirama, and that's why no single feat or true statement
(Not mistranslation) was provided. 

Thank you for your time tho.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Even Itachi's statement about attaining the EMS?



Obviously. 
Itachi stated that madara was going blind, and because of that and under its effect he stole Izuna's eyes, who then fought in a battle and died. 

However, we know that he does not know what he is talking about. We saw madara was perfectly fine, and that he actually loved his brother. However, izuna was going to die, and he gave his eye to madara by his own will.

completely the opposite of what itachi said...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obviously.
> Itachi stated that madara was going blind, and because of that and under its effect he stole Izuna's eyes, who then fought in a battle and died.
> 
> However, we know that he does not know what he is talking about. We saw madara was perfectly fine, and that he actually loved his brother. However, izuna was going to die, and he gave his eye to madara by his own will.
> ...



 However, Itachi was correct about needing your brother's eyes to awaken the EMS was he not?

 Of course, I believe Itachi's statements were made to threaten Sasuke and show him that he did desire Sasuke's eyes as it was made clear that Itachi was also going blind, so he was in need of some new eyes.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> However, Itachi was correct about needing your brother's eyes to awaken the EMS was he not?
> 
> Of course, I believe Itachi's statements were made to threaten Sasuke as opposed to actually tell him the complete truth.



Yes, he got that right. Even though I was talking about his information about the first generation which is obviously wrong and cannot be taken as evidence. 

I doubt it. Itachi does not even know about the "true" way to obtain the MS, and he believed its based on hatred, and that's also why did such dumb thing as saying to Sasuke to kill Naruto (I.E his best friend). Then we learned that it's about love and all that thing.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes, he got that right. Even though I was talking about his information about the first generation which is obviously wrong and cannot be taken as evidence.



 True.



> I doubt it. Itachi does not even know about the "true" way to obtain the MS, and he believed its based on hatred, and that's also why did such dumb thing as saying to Sasuke to kill Naruto (I.E his best friend). Then we learned that it's about love and all that thing.



 I edited that to word that slightly better.

 I don't believe Itachi himself believed that attaining the MS was based on hatred, more like Love as it was known that Shisui offered his life to Itachi, hence Itachi losing someone he valued dearly and activated the MS because of that. Connects with what Tobirama stated that as you lose Love, you awaken the Sharingan which is similar to this instance.

 Of course, him telling Sasuke to kill his best friend means he's losing something he values dearly which causes him to awaken the MS. The only reason he pushed Sasuke so much to the point of believing hatred was the key to power was because Itachi truly believed hatred was what was needed for Sasuke to surpass Itachi.

 But hey, you seem to know more about the plot than I do, so please enlighten me.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 16, 2015)

> anyway, it does not really matter.... I made my point
> and I now at least know that there is nothing to back up Tobirama, and that's why no single feat or true statement
> (Not mistranslation) was provided.



Tobirama tagged Juubito more than once and put a FTG formula on him. That means he is tiers above aither sannin in speed. And because of that speed difference, he beats aither Sannin.  

So here you go, a feat from Tobirama that puts him above any Sannin. 

But of course, you cant counter that. Thats why you'll ignore me. Typical Hussain.


----------



## Thunder (Feb 16, 2015)

Personally, I rate the second strongest Senju above the likes of the Sannin. On an individual basis anyway. 

It's a fair assessment to make given Tobirama's standing in the war arc.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> No, your fantasy thinking that Tobirama is better than X, Y, and Z
> and when showing otherwise you ignore the manga, and repeat the same thing.
> 
> You claim That Tobirama is better than Oro (and the sannin), I gave you the manga statement that Oro has
> ...





"You brothers can't pull out your true strength, and There's a gulf between us now."

Now.  As in, there didn't used to be a gulf.  As in, they used to closer to equals.  

Individuals may surpass Tobirama in one jutsu, yes, but they haven't surpassed him in the totality of jutsu.  Naruto can't use edo tensei or hiraishin.  Minato can't use edo tensei or suitons.  Orochimaru can't use hiraishin.  If you know of another translation, feel free to post it.  

Now for the rest of everything you've said.  One upping a person's best jutsu doesn't mean you've exceeded them in every way.  Orochimaru added fuda tags to better control Edo Tensei.  Minato put the marks on kunai.  Wind Arc Naruto improved on Minato's rasengan by adding wind element to it, and was stated to have, "Surpassed the Fourth," by doing so, but that didn't actually mean Wind Arc Naruto was completely and totally better than Minato, and could take him out behind the shed for a whoopin'.  You're wearing a Minato set, so I'll be astounded if you disagree with that sentiment.

Let's go deeper into the Edo Tensei, so you can understand just why I didn't care to comment on every little quote.  Tobirama apparently has a whole set of jutsu to use in tandem with Edo Tensei, one of which is the paper mache bombs, and neither Oro nor Kabuto ever used such things, or indicated knowledge of their existance.  So it's more accurate to say that they've improved on one aspect of one of his jutsu than to say they've totally surpassed him.  Oro and Kabuto didn't even know Edo control could be broken in the first place, like Madara and Tobirama knew, so their _overall_ knowledge and master of the jutsu is demonstrably below his.  

Okay, so Tobirama had to be careful with who he edo tensei'd....except he was going to use it on Madara to ask him questions later during the Kaguya thing, so I guess he had some means of controlling even the toppest of tiers without fuda tags.  Maybe he didn't need to improve that aspect because it wasn't an issue for him?

Minato has pre-marked kunai.  Except...Tobirama can tag kunai as he throws them, as he did vs Madara.  So really he doesn't need pre-tagged kunai.  Heck, hiraishin-giri is done without any sort of tags near anyone, however that makes sense.  The databook statement said that Minato is "surpassing" Tobirama's use of hiraishin with the mawashiswappagiri, but then a few sentences later it says that the two users must be in perfect sync, being totally equal in timing and execution.  So Minato does better than him by doing exactly the same as him because if they didn't the move would fail.  Contradictory much?  Obviously Minato didn't invent this jutsu, because Tobirama was the one who suggested they use it, and even told Minato they'd need their real bodies, so in point of fact Tobirama was coaching Minato on the jutsu Minato does better.  One more time, Tobirama was matching timing and reflexes with _Kyuubi shroud Minato_, who should be far better than living base Minato in terms of everything, speed and reflexes included.

Databook says that Minato was a student of Tobirama or something. Except that doesn't make sense given that Tobirama died when Hiruzen was a kid, and Hashirama didn't even know who he was.  If not outright non-sense, that has to be a loose wording for Minato studying Tobirama's techniques, which as I showed with the Orochimaru edo tensei example, doesn't at all mean he's surpassed Tobirama.  

Again, I'll point out that Kyuubi cloak turned Naruto into a high kage that garnered multiple parallels and comparisons to Minato.  Minato was already a high kage and got a comparable boost, and performed roughly as well as Tobirama during their co-op mission.  The deciding factor for a hiraishin comparison is the reflexes of the individual, and the speed they can activate it.  Both Minato and Tobirama can activate it as fast as their reflexes allow, and given that Tobirama's reflexes=KCM Minato reflexes>Base Minato's reflexes, Tobirama should be better than Minato even if Minato has kunai pre-tagged for a rokoshokobo dance party.  That mystical super jutsu that turned out to be, "Minato throws three marked kunai and warps to one of them."  

The last Databook doesn't win me any favors, and neither do your most of you arguments.  The fact that I decided to (lazily) quote your opening premise and attack that, instead of go line by line through every one of your quotes doesn't mean I can't refute them and choose to live in fantasy land, it means I'd rather pull out the bottom brick.  In fact close to 100% of your initial refutations to my posts were you saying "No," "It's not," and "I don't believe you," before insinuating that everyone who disagrees with you are Tobirama fanboys.  So if I repeat the same thing, it's because you're utterly unconvincing.  Contrast that with Flaming Rain, who in less words got me to go back to scan the manga, give on points, and reconsider my positions.


----------



## Jad (Feb 16, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The last Databook doesn't win me any favors, and neither do your most of you arguments.  The fact that I decided to (lazily) quote your opening premise and attack that, instead of go line by line through every one of your quotes doesn't mean I can't refute them and choose to live in fantasy land, it means I'd rather pull out the bottom brick.  In fact close to 100% of your initial refutations to my posts were you saying "No," "It's not," and "I don't believe you," before insinuating that everyone who disagrees with you are Tobirama fanboys.  So if I repeat the same thing, it's because you're utterly unconvincing.  Contrast that with Flaming Rain, who in less words got me to go back to scan the manga, give on points, and reconsider my positions.



Quoted for the truth.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 17, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Personally, I rate the second strongest Senju above the likes of the Sannin. On an individual basis anyway.
> 
> It's a fair assessment to make given Tobirama's standing in the war arc.



I would rank Tobirama on par with the Sannin, certainly. To say he's above them is a push in my opinion, and if he was, it would only be marginally.

He was overshadowed by Hashirama and Minato throughout the war arc, and even in moments where he did shine with his high reflexes, I don't believe he displayed anything which was at a level above the Sannin.

Personally, I'd place Jiraiya slightly above Tobirama, by virtue of his Sage Mode. Orochimaru and Tsunade can match him in strength.​​


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 17, 2015)

> He was overshadowed by Hashirama and Minato throughout the war arc, and even in moments where he did shine with his high reflexes, I don't believe he displayed anything which was at a level above the Sannin.



Tagging Juubito more than once isnt at a level above the Sannin?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

If anything, BM Minato was overshadowed until he used Hiraishin on the whole Shinobi Alliance and used his Kurama Avatar tbh.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> As for the blindside, I thought Madara said like in his current for even that tactic won't work on him, or that since he got Hashirama's sage energy, he's gone out of Tobirama's reach.  Implying that he used to be in Tobirama's kill zone.





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> "You brothers can't pull out your true strength, and There's a gulf between us now."
> 
> Now.  As in, there didn't used to be a gulf.  As in, they used to closer to equals.



He was referring to both of the Senju bros, though, not just Tobirama. Eying the habit that Madara just pointed out, Tobirama might have been dangerous in the same sense that Kakashi had been while assisting BM Naruto against Obito, but as far as a solo performance? I don't think there's any reason to extend it that far; in fact, practically everything time and time again has pointed to him being _way_ out of his league in that case.

Pretty much starting out we know that Tobirama has been fighting Izuna since they were little kids _(1)_, and it took until adulthood for Tobirama to finally kill him _(2)_. That seems to suggest that they were relatively even, and if so, it's not hard to figure out what it means for Tobirama when _Madara_ is the one reputed to have been born with _the_ greatest and most powerful Chakra the Uchiha had ever seen, which should have included Izuna's _(3)_. Izuna being astonished that somebody was actually more powerful than his older brother when Madara admitted to Hashirama being his superior _(4)_ is perfectly consistent with that.

Is there any reason to think that something changed after Izuna died? Not really, because apparently Tobirama still regards Madara as being a trauma of his _(5)_, and the person that Madara fought with all the time for all those years can keep Tobirama in check simply by releasing his Chakra _(6)_, _(7)_, _(8)_.

That kind of thing never happens between ninja that are anywhere near each other in power. The fact that it does happen spells it out rather clearly that Tobirama can't compete with them, and if that wasn't enough Madara outright says it here _(9)_.

That's just a whole lot that would have to be thrown away if we're to believe Tobirama actually approaches Madara's tier, isn't it?


----------



## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

That's a big post, isn't it. 


> [=The Pirate on Wheels;52900673]
> 
> "You brothers can't pull out your true strength, and There's a gulf between us now."
> 
> Now.  As in, there didn't used to be a gulf.  As in, they used to closer to equals.


You are using this statement as if the different between their power is massive. However, it is NOT. 
*Tobirama himself* stated that they are at almost their full power. Which means the different between their full power, and their current power is not that big of a deal.
Link removed


> Individuals may surpass Tobirama in one jutsu, yes, but they haven't surpassed him in the totality of jutsu.  Naruto can't use edo tensei or hiraishin.  Minato can't use edo tensei or suitons.  Orochimaru can't use hiraishin.  If you know of another translation, feel free to post it.


Except their other jutsus are superior to his.  
Why would Naruto care about a weak ass water jutsu when he can use FRS that is an S-Rank jutsu?
Why would Oro care about them when he has his Hydra that is an S-Rank jutsu? And so on and so forth. 
The Same with Minato and his Rassengan and sealing jutsu which are on a higher level than Tobirama's jutsu.


> Now for the rest of everything you've said.  One upping a person's best jutsu doesn't mean you've exceeded them in every way.


Except when X character surpassed Y character in the best they have, everything else is irrelevant. For example, If Z character has a stronger jutsu than Hashirama's Buddha, does the weaker jutsu change anything? No they don't. 


> Orochimaru added fuda tags to better control Edo Tensei.  Minato put the marks on kunai.  Wind Arc Naruto improved on Minato's rasengan by adding wind element to it, and was stated to have, "Surpassed the Fourth," by doing so, but that didn't actually mean Wind Arc Naruto was completely and totally better than Minato, and could take him out behind the shed for a whoopin'.  You're wearing a Minato set, so I'll be astounded if you disagree with that sentiment.



Except your interpretation is completely wrong. Minato's fame and strong point does not come from his Rassengan, but from his teleportation jutsu, so it does not matter if he was surpassed in a minor jutsu of his. And that's why Kishi kept comparing Naruto to Minato after that in SM, speed, and chakra transfer jutsu. HOWEVER, Tobirama's strong point IS his teleportation jutsu, which he was surpassed in, and it's not only by adding tags to kunais, the whole jutsu is superior to Tobirama's. 


> Let's go deeper into the Edo Tensei, so you can understand just why I didn't care to comment on every little quote.  Tobirama apparently has a whole set of jutsu to use in tandem with Edo Tensei, one of which is the paper mache bombs, and neither Oro nor Kabuto ever used such things, or indicated knowledge of their existance.


No, Tobirama's jutsu with the ET is ONLY the tag explosion jutsu, and that what madara said that the original use of his ET. The reason for that is because he can't bring them with their power. On the other hand Oro and Kabuto can, so they have no use of that jutsu to begin with. 



> So it's more accurate to say that they've improved on one aspect of one of his jutsu than to say they've totally surpassed him.  Oro and Kabuto didn't even know Edo control could be broken in the first place, like Madara and Tobirama knew, so their _overall_ knowledge and master of the jutsu is demonstrably below his.


Who said they did not know? Did not Kabuto state that there is one jutsu who can do that?
(IIRC) which means he knew about it, and about Koto as well. 



> Okay, so Tobirama had to be careful with who he edo tensei'd....except he was going to use it on Madara to ask him questions later during the Kaguya thing, so I guess he had some means of controlling even the toppest of tiers without fuda tags.  Maybe he didn't need to improve that aspect because it wasn't an issue for him?


You do realise that madara was going to be brought back NO WHERE near his full power right?
Do you remember how weak Hashirama was in part 1? Yeah, Madara is going to be even weaker than that. 


> Minato has pre-marked kunai.  Except...Tobirama can tag kunai as he throws them, as he did vs Madara.  So really he doesn't need pre-tagged kunai.  Heck, hiraishin-giri is done without any sort of tags near anyone, however that makes sense.  The databook statement said that Minato is "surpassing" Tobirama's use of hiraishin with the mawashiswappagiri, but then a few sentences later it says that the two users must be in perfect sync, being totally equal in timing and execution.  So Minato does better than him by doing exactly the same as him because if they didn't the move would fail.  Contradictory much?  Obviously Minato didn't invent this jutsu, because Tobirama was the one who suggested they use it, and even told Minato they'd need their real bodies, so in point of fact Tobirama was coaching Minato on the jutsu Minato does better.  One more time, Tobirama was matching timing and reflexes with _Kyuubi shroud Minato_, who should be far better than living base Minato in terms of everything, speed and reflexes included.


The Databook does not only state that he is better than him with mawashiswappagiri. But With everything has to do with the FTG. You, again, chose to ignore it.

There it is again. First, FTG From Minato's profile


> A handsome man shining with natural-borne talent, like a blinding glint (purple lightning), time and space itself seem to stand still—.
> Minato handles to perfection the “Hiraishin no jutsu” space-time ninjutsu that was invented by Nidaime Hokage Senju Tobirama, and learnt from Master Jiraiya the pride of being a ninja.
> His achievements began 27 years ago with the “Jinchuuriki kidnapping prevention” in Kirigakure; during the 3rd Great Ninja War, he led inferior Konoha camps to victory for times too numerous to mention.
> Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed, the honour of that valour fascinates even the elites of other villages



From the secret thing




> Tobirama’s developed jutsu were later inherited by a disciple, a user whose name was rising. Namikaze Minato improved the mastery of “Hiraishin no jutsu”, and thus took the nickname “The Yellow Flash”. The excellent jutsu was refined according to the disciple, who evolved it together with the era. The future of “Kagebunshin no jutsu (Shadow Clone Jutsu)” and “Rasengan” is dependent upon Naruto!?
> 
> To be continue...


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

[/QUOTE]

FTG level 2



> Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> User: Namikaze Minato
> 
> ...



and the FTG mwashi as you have already seen. 



> So Minato does better than him by doing exactly the same as him because if they didn't the move would fail. Contradictory much?


lol, no. Those things have already been explained. For example, when Naruto/Sasuke had to change or balance the ratio/amount of their chakra in their jutsu so they can use it perfectly together. Ironically by *Tobirama himself* as well
3
It's as if kishi knew Tobirama's fans will be the most to complain. 
Anyway, the same thing was said AGAIN
3
As Sasuke said he would match Naruto's chakra this time. Does that mean Naruto with his superior amount of chakra can't increase his FRS level above Sasuke? Yes, he can, but that would ruin their teamwork. The same thing here, Minato will have to lower his level to Tobirama's so the teamwork will work perfectly. Just like in Obito's battle as well, KCM Naruto was not using his full speed when he was working with the other 3, does that mean he couldn't do it? The obvious answer is no, but he has to be at speed where their teamwork would work. It really is that simple. 

- As for your last point, I have already explained to you. If Minato was going to use a greater extend of his abilities that would fail. Just like how Naruto was decreasing his speed when he was in a teamwork, or were you under the impression that base Sasuke, B, Kakashi were all as fast as KCM and BM Naruto? You just don't get the point of teamwork. 




> Databook says that Minato was a student of Tobirama or something. Except that doesn't make sense given that Tobirama died when Hiruzen was a kid, and Hashirama didn't even know who he was.  If not outright non-sense, that has to be a loose wording for Minato studying Tobirama's techniques, which as I showed with the Orochimaru edo tensei example, doesn't at all mean he's surpassed Tobirama.


Except the Databook does not say that.  
you are still having terrible of understanding. What the Databook in that section was talking about is how the jutsu get inherited. It stated by a disciple, not that Minato is Tobirama's disciple, but he was in that line since Tobirama > Hiruzen > Jiraiya > Minato. 

and no, when Tobirama died Hiruzen was in his 40s which means he was not a kid.  


> Again, I'll point out that Kyuubi cloak turned Naruto into a high kage that garnered multiple parallels and comparisons to Minato.


and again I'll point out that Tobirama admitted that he is inferior to Minato even BEFORE Minato used his KCM.  


> Minato was already a high kage and got a comparable boost, and performed roughly as well as Tobirama during their co-op mission.


No. Minato was soloing his apponent, but Tobirama got his ass kicked. People were fleeing from Minato, but Tobirama was the one fleeing from his opponent. Big different.  


> The deciding factor for a hiraishin comparison is the reflexes of the individual, and the speed they can activate it.  Both Minato and Tobirama can activate it as fast as their reflexes allow, and given that Tobirama's reflexes=KCM Minato reflexes>Base Minato's reflexes, Tobirama should be better than Minato even if Minato has kunai pre-tagged for a rokoshokobo dance party.  That mystical super jutsu that turned out to be, "Minato throws three marked kunai and warps to one of them."


If only the manga follow what you say. However,*Tobirama himself* disprove of that, you can believe all you want that you know about his abilities better than he does, that your own freedom I suppose.  
Minato's reflexes, shunshin, striking, and even striking power are all in different level than Tobirama as proven in the manga and Databook. 


> The last Databook doesn't win me any favors, and neither do your most of you arguments.  The fact that I decided to (lazily) quote your opening premise and attack that, instead of go line by line through every one of your quotes doesn't mean I can't refute them and choose to live in fantasy land, it means I'd rather pull out the bottom brick.  In fact close to 100% of your initial refutations to my posts were you saying "No," "It's not," and "I don't believe you," before insinuating that everyone who disagrees with you are Tobirama fanboys.  So if I repeat the same thing, it's because* you're utterly unconvincing*.  Contrast that with Flaming Rain, who in less words got me to go back to scan the manga, give on points, and reconsider my positions.



except if you closed your mind from the start of course you want be convinced for anything. We are talking about the manga here. And instead of using manga to prove your point, you ignore it and create your own "manga" so to speak to prove it. Tobirama himself says something, and you say
"Oh Tobirama is wrong, I am sure I know his abilities much better than he does about himself" 

Of course I won't be convincing to you. EVEN TOBIRAMA is not convincing to you about his OWN abilities. So, no one would ever be.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> True.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Since that last response got me tired a bit. -__-
in short, I believe the whole hatred and madara story thing got reteconed later on. I don't think Kishi
intended to make itachi appears to be ignorant.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He was referring to both of the Senju bros, though, not just Tobirama. Eying the habit that Madara just pointed out, Tobirama might have been dangerous in the same sense that Kakashi had been while assisting BM Naruto against Obito, but as far as a solo performance? I don't think there's any reason to extend it that far; in fact, practically everything time and time again has pointed to him being _way_ out of his league in that case.
> 
> Pretty much starting out we know that Tobirama has been fighting Izuna since they were little kids _(1)_, and it took until adulthood for Tobirama to finally kill him _(2)_. That seems to suggest that they were relatively even, and if so, it's not hard to figure out what it means for Tobirama when _Madara_ is the one reputed to have been born with _the_ greatest and most powerful Chakra the Uchiha had ever seen, which should have included Izuna's _(3)_. Izuna being astonished that somebody was actually more powerful than his older brother when Madara admitted to Hashirama being his superior _(4)_ is perfectly consistent with that.
> 
> ...






(Quote)
?Don?t do it Big Brother
?Don?t let them fool you

Entrusting to his elder brother a glimmer of hope*
Reflecting in his eyes the stability of his clan

(*a single wish; eyes/gaze/stare (lit. pupils of the eye); stability/peace)

Next to Madara in ability (lit. true power, force), Izuna accomplished a great number of military achievements. Wishing for the stability (peace) of his clan, he entrusted, at the moment of his death, his faith (confidence) along with his ?Sharingan? to Madara. He resolved in his heart that his eyes would be the ones to witness (watch over) to the future (fate) of his clan?

(Kid Izuna vs Kid Tobirama)
Overflowing with talent in swordsmanship, he clashed many times on the battlefield against Tobirama, his equal in ability who would become the Second Hokage. 

Profile
Ninja Registration Number: -
Birthday: February 10th (Age at death: 24 years old; Aquarius)
Height: 174.8 cm; Weight: 55.9 kg; Blood-type: O
Personality: Self-sacrificing/devoted, Harmonious/balanced


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If anything, BM Minato was overshadowed until he used Hiraishin on the whole Shinobi Alliance and used his Kurama Avatar tbh.



Tobirama was riding Minato's dick since the moment they went to the war. Even people were saying that he was only a cheerleader for the several first months. 

When they arraived


after their arrival


When Minato stopped Obito from using RT
(9)
(9)

When Obito was using the 4 TBBs


after Minato saved them


when the tree came out


What is there to him has nothing to do with his feats actually, but rather about his character. Other than that
he was only teleporting in a smaller scale than Minato like.

1- Teleporting the Gedu-dama (Minato teleported 5)
2- teleporting 2 fodders (Minato teleported the whole SA)
3- teleporting Naruto when obito was trash-talking Minato
4- teleporting Minato and Naruto to obito
5- teleporting and switching with Minato.

That's pretty much all of what he did in the war. lol


Edit:
for my teamwork point above. Here
(9)

The first thing Naruto said when he was going to use his BM is whether or not if Sasuke can keep up with him. If it did not matter, Kishi
wouldn't have brought this point up...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 17, 2015)

^ In actual combat, he proved himself to be worse than Tobirama. 

 Minato has great feats with FTG, but that's pointless when every time he used it against his enemy, he got his arm chopped off.

 Minato could never tag his opponent. Tobirama did. Tobirama helped Naruto land a SM enhanced Rasengan and helped BM Naruto and BM Minato land a Chou Oodama Rasengan on Juubito. Though you're correct, Minato did do more later on, but that had more to do with Madara disabling Tobirama. 

 You can't take what BM Naruto said seriously as he had no idea of EMS Sasuke's prowess at the time.


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## Trojan (Feb 17, 2015)

Except Minato and Tobirama were in completely different scenarios. It's ridiculous to compare them like that. 
What Tobirama faced was mindless Obito, and he still got half of his body destroyed completely, and then he blew what remind of himself up (and failed to hit obito with it).

Minato was going at obito who was not in control, and then he gained control all of sudden, and attacked him. And even then, Minato lost 1 arm only. I don't see how is that "smart" It's like saying Pain dodged base Naruto, so that means he can dodge BM Naruto which is obviously dumb. 

Had Tobirama been in Minato's place, he would have been *killed* right there. Unless you believe he can fight with half of his body gone forever...


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## Grimsley (Feb 17, 2015)

they thrash minato by leaps and bounds - if u disagree with this ur gay for minato or an obsessed fangirl


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## Thunder (Feb 17, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I would rank Tobirama on par with the Sannin, certainly. To say he's above them is a push in my opinion, and if he was, it would only be marginally.​




I don't think it's a push at all considering canon shows us Tobirama tangoing with Jūbi Jinchūriki while Orochimaru and Tsunade are on the sidelines. Even if the Sannin had Edo Tensei bodies like Tobirama, they would still lack the speed and reactions needed to make a difference against that kind of opponent. Tobirama wasn't revived at full strength and he was still useful. 



> He was overshadowed by Hashirama and Minato throughout the war arc, and even in moments where he did shine with his high reflexes, I don't believe he displayed anything which was at a level above the Sannin.


Hashirama overshadowed practically_ everyone_ there so I don't see where you're going with that point. And yes, Minato with Kurama's chakra is superior to Tobirama. But that didn't stop Tobirama from making moves with Minato. They still worked well together and watched each others backs. 

Personally, I feel Hiraishin is above the level of the Sannin. Space-time jutsu are broken in this manga and Hiraishin is one of best space-time jutsu out there. It made two Hokage (Tobirama and Minato) *the fastest shinobi of their eras* [1] [2]. The first four Hokage were the strongest shinobi Konoha produced at the time (with the exception of Naruto, Sasuke, and missing-nin like Madara). Kishi began stressing this idea more during the war arc, but it was always present really. Which is why a dying Jiraiya notes his personal accomplishments in life paled in comparison to their own [3]. The Hokage were able to accomplish more because they were stronger. You need power to enact change in the shinobi world [4]. Jiraiya spent a large portion of his life _searching_ for someone stronger than him. And he did a stellar job raising him up. 



> Personally, I'd place Jiraiya slightly above Tobirama, by virtue of his Sage Mode. Orochimaru and Tsunade can match him in strength.



Well, Sage Mode is only a factor if Jiraiya achieves it during the fight. Against a Hiraishin user out for blood? I just don't see it happening myself. Now, if Jiraiya _starts_ in Sage Mode? I would definitely agree. But in a fair fight where they run into each other with no prior knowledge? Odds are Tobirama tags Jiraiya well before the Sannin busts out Sage Mode. From there it's a downhill fight for base Jiraiya. Tobirama is a powerful sensor and knows senjutsu when he sees it. Jiraiya won't have the opportunity.

I'll grant you Orochimaru . . . but I'm not seeing how Tsunade would stand a chance against her grand uncle. She lacks a feasible way to counter Tobirama's vastly superior speed, and she's certainly not wearing down a pure Senju in a battle of attrition. ​


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## GearsUp (Feb 17, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Strongest they can beat is probably low-end top tiers
> like Nagato or EMS sauce.



I dont see em beating emsauce at all.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 18, 2015)

> Except Minato and Tobirama were in completely different scenarios. It's ridiculous to compare them like that.
> What Tobirama faced was mindless Obito, and he still got half of his body destroyed completely, and then he blew what remind of himself up (and failed to hit obito with it)



Can you prove that in terms of speed mindless Juubito is <<<<<< Juubito. That mindless thing is a complete bullsh*t. 

And anyway, it was an awesome speed feat. Even if that Juubito was realy slower.


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2015)

Thunder said:


> and she's certainly not wearing down a pure Senju in a battle of attrition. ​​




Tsunade's chakra was enough to heal the entire village. That's more impressive feat than anything Tobirama has ever done in term of chakra.

As for Jiraiya accomplishment compared to the others, he is not talking about power though. Tobirama's accomplishment were  mostly building academy, chunnin exam..etc in the village, which has nothing to do with his power. Actually,  as soon as he ended his talking Kishi made Minato say
"Don't say that" as to counter the previous things about him not being great and those stuff
Link removed​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 18, 2015)

> Tsunade's chakra was enough to heal the entire village. That's more impressive feat than anything Tobirama has ever done in term of chakra.



Tobirama's chakra was high enough to aid most of the shinobi alliance with FTG for most of the battle.  He could also break walls with chakra sensing.


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## Grimsley (Feb 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Tobirama's chakra was high enough to aid most of the shinobi alliance with FTG for most of the battle.*  He could also break walls with chakra sensing.



that's a reach and you know it,


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 18, 2015)

Oh, I see what you mean.  No, I intend it to sound like that.

He said he would use the linked hiraishin help the alliance against the dangerous attacks, but he couldn't do it as well as Minato and Naruto, because they had a 9 tails power source and he didn't.  Being able to do that at all probably puts him at the higher levels of the chakra pool.  

*Explanation:* Whether you take one hiraishin to cost more than one shosen, and assume he was doing that until he stopped doing that, he doesn't have to be warping everyone at once to start getting a  equivalent feat.  The caveat is that he's an edo, and will get his chakra restored, but we just had a scene where Minato was drained from the mass hirashin, and had to wait for awhile before he could mold more chakra, and he told them all to fight without fear on a battlefield that's actively killing them, so it's not like he's going to be getting a lot of down time to edo regen.

Tsunade might have more chakra because she's part Uzumaki as well Senju, and she takes more after Hashirama and Mito, but she also stores weeks worth of chakra in her forehead seal (which she used to perform that feat), which Tobirama can't do.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama invents Kagebunshin. Then tags it Forbidden Jutsu because it kills people with inadequate chakra reserves. He creates 2 KBs and grumbles about not being able to create more due to keeping up Hokage-lvl barrier. It was also his raised chakra that initially rocked a room full of Kage-levels. Tobirama's chakra looks "average" when compared to his brother. Whose chakra tank puts most bijus to shame. Compared to everybody else he is a monster.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 18, 2015)

It was actually tajū kage bunshin no jutsu that he tagged as kinjutsu, not the standard variation, but the principle still stands.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 18, 2015)

That means he could use taju kagebunshin, but it would kill anyone else not him.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 18, 2015)

The funny thing - Kakuzu called Naruto's 2 clones Taiju Kagebunshin. Not sure what Kishi was thinking.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> The funny thing - Kakuzu called Naruto's 2 clones Taiju Kagebunshin. Not sure what Kishi was thinking.



Maybe getting killed so many times affected his counting ability.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 18, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I don't think it's a push at all considering canon shows us Tobirama tangoing with Jūbi Jinchūriki



Tobirama had been neglected throughout Part II. It was by pure chance that he was revived at the same time that the Juubi had gone on a rampage, when the series was at its climax. His attempts at  'tangoing ' with Obito amounted to getting chopped in half, and then needing his brother to immobilise the enemy so that he could hit him with his Gojō Kibakufuda. The best he could do was land a few explosive tags on Obito, but they would have been insignificant without Hashirama's input.



> while Orochimaru and Tsunade are on the sidelines.



I think you're overlooking the context of that scenario. Tsunade is first and foremost a medic, in war time her skills are best put to use in healing the alliance. That isn't to say she could not have contributed to combat. Orochimaru, on the other hand, had absolutely no intention of helping the alliance anymore than he needed to. Likewise, that doesn't mean he could have done nothing to attack Obito should he have actually desired to. 



> Even if the Sannin had Edo Tensei bodies like Tobirama, they would still lack the speed and reactions needed to make a difference against that kind of opponent. Tobirama wasn't revived at full strength and he was still useful.



Just because the Sannin don't have massive speed, it doesn't mean that they would be any worse off against Obito than Tobirama was. They have talent in other areas, like durability, resilience and stamina. And besides, Tobirama couldn't do anything to his opponent without help from his brother. 



> Hashirama overshadowed practically_ everyone_ there so I don't see where you're going with that point.



I find it to be a more noticeable comparison since Tobirama is Hashirama's brother who fought and gained his fame in the same era. Yet the Shodaime has infinitely more reputation and power. 



> And yes, Minato with Kurama's chakra is superior to Tobirama. But that didn't stop Tobirama from making moves with Minato. They still worked well together and watched each others backs.



I wasn't even talking about Minato with Kurama's chakra. Minato's shunshin and Hiraishin abilities were cited as greater by the Nidaime himself. Those aren't abilities Minato needs Kurama to access.



> Personally, I feel Hiraishin is above the level of the Sannin. Space-time jutsu are broken in this manga and Hiraishin is one of best space-time jutsu out there. It made two Hokage (Tobirama and Minato) *the fastest shinobi of their eras* [1] [2]. The first four Hokage were the strongest shinobi Konoha produced at the time (with the exception of Naruto, Sasuke, and missing-nin like Madara). Kishi began stressing this idea more during the war arc, but it was always present really. Which is why a dying Jiraiya notes his personal accomplishments in life paled in comparison to their own [3].



My problem with your argument is that it is slightly obsessed with the idea that Tobirama's speed alone merits his superiority to the Sannin. While his speed would make him an incredibly difficult target to hit, Tsunade and Orochimaru's sustainability in battle make them incredibly difficult opponents to kill with the Nidaime's level of firepower. Furthermore, personal accomplishments are not necessarily equated with battle strength. Jiraiya was offered the position of Hokage many times and had every opportunity to make the same contributions to Konoha as his predecessors did, but he made the decision not to.



> The Hokage were able to accomplish more because they were stronger. You need power to enact change in the shinobi world [4]. Jiraiya spent a large portion of his life _searching_ for someone stronger than him. And he did a stellar job raising him up.



I think thats a sweeping statement. Power is needed to enact change, but it doesn't just have to be the power you demonstrate in combat. That was exemplified many times throughout the series. As for Jiraiya searching for someone stronger than him, the Sannin were generally on the same wavelength when it came to power levels, and if anything Jiraiya edges over Orochimaru with Sage Mode.




> Well, Sage Mode is only a factor if Jiraiya achieves it during the fight. Against a Hiraishin user out for blood? I just don't see it happening myself. Now, if Jiraiya _starts_ in Sage Mode? I would definitely agree. But in a fair fight where they run into each other with no prior knowledge? Odds are Tobirama tags Jiraiya well before the Sannin busts out Sage Mode. From there it's a downhill fight for base Jiraiya. Tobirama is a powerful sensor and knows senjutsu when he sees it. Jiraiya won't have the opportunity.



Between his Kage Bunshin and plethora of summons to guard and protect him, I'd say Jiraiya could stall long enough to access Sage Mode. It does only take a couple of minutes, after all. That said, I don't believe Jiraiya actually needs to enter Sage Mode to use Frog Song, something Ma and Pa could very well use to put Tobirama down.



> I'll grant you Orochimaru . . . but I'm not seeing how Tsunade would stand a chance against her grand uncle. She lacks a feasible way to counter Tobirama's vastly superior speed, and she's certainly not wearing down a pure Senju in a battle of attrition.



Likewise though, I see no obvious way that Tobirama can kill his grand-daughter either. His firepower is not of a great enough calibre to put down someone with as much battle sustainability as the Godaime. That is why I would rank the two to be on the same bracket of power. A match between them could go either way. Although, Tsunade is an Uzumaki and Senju in her own right, so her base chakra levels/stamina is massive. That is only further augmented by the fact that she can store limitless amounts of chakra inside of her seal. Depending on the circumstances, she could very well outlast him.​​


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 18, 2015)

Yeah, Tobirama never did anything without help from Hashirama apart from that one time he saved Sasuke, Naruto and Minato, that other time he coordinated with Minato to get an attack landed on Obito, identified the nature of his attacks and all the other times he helped the team with hiraishin. 

Also, while Tsunade and Orochimaru are undeniably more resilient to damage than Tobirama is, I doubt any of that would have helped against Obito. His attacks had the effect of vaporizing entire body parts and negating regeneration altogether. Tsunade would bleed out, and while Orochimaru is a bit luckier in that his regeneration involves creating entirely new bodies, I don't think he'd last too long either.

How do you suppose they'd actually contribute against the battle with Obito in direct combat? It's fairly obvious that the only two who could really stand with him on a relatively even ground were Naruto and Sasuke; even Tobirama and Minato were more or less delegated to hiraishin support.

In regards to: 



> Jiraiya was offered the position of Hokage many times and had every opportunity to make the same contributions to Konoha as his predecessors did, but he made the decision not to.



It's unlikely that Jiraiya would have ever been able to contribute to Konoha in the same way its founding fathers did.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 18, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Yeah, Tobirama never did anything without help from Hashirama apart from that one time he saved Sasuke, Naruto and Minato, that other time he coordinated with Minato to get an attack landed on Obito, identified the nature of his attacks and all the other times he helped the team with hiraishin.



Using Hiraishin to swish around and avoid attacks is all fine and well, but it doesn't kill his opponent. His co-ordinated attack with Kurama Minato was just that - a co-ordinated attack. He couldn't have done it by himself.



> Also, while Tsunade and Orochimaru are undeniably more resilient to damage than Tobirama is, I doubt any of that would have helped against Obito. His attacks had the effect of vaporizing entire body parts and negating regeneration altogether. Tsunade would bleed out, and while Orochimaru is a bit luckier in that his regeneration involves creating entirely new bodies, I don't think he'd last too long either.



In the same situation, Tsunade and Orochimaru would have had Edo Tensei bodies. I'm not sure how that would effect Orochimaru's techniques, but I'm sure Tsunade could use her playing possum tactics with edo tensei regeneration in the same way she does with Byakugou. That isn't to say she could kill Obito with them or anything, but she certainly could have inflicted at least as much damage to him as Tobirama did. Offensively, Tsunade and Orochimaru pack more firepower than the Nidaime, with boss summons by their side. With the same support from Hashirama, Minato, Naruto and Sasuke, I don't see why Tsunade or Orochimaru would have done any worse against Obito. They just wouldn't have relied on super speed moves to attack.



> How do you suppose they'd actually contribute against the battle with Obito in direct combat? It's fairly obvious that the only two who could really stand with him on a relatively even ground were Naruto and Sasuke; even Tobirama and Minato were more or less delegated to hiraishin support.



I would assume that, with all of their vastly stronger peers attacking and creating diversions, they could either chance it by swooping in with well timed attacks in an attempt to inflict big damage, or else have their boss summons do the work for them. Tsunade's ability to chakra pump attacks to massive scales would have surely proved useful as well. Their roles would obviously be supportive, but then so was Tobirama's.



> It's unlikely that Jiraiya would have ever been able to contribute to Konoha in the same way its founding fathers did.



That's another argument in itself - currently all I'm disputing is that Tobirama and Hashirama's power alone is what gave them the means to enact change in their village. In reality, Tobirama's combat power had little to do with his ability to establish the Chuunin exams, Konoha Police Ops, and Academy. That came down his own ingenuity and leadership skills, a different type of _power_.​​


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## Thunder (Feb 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> > Tobirama had been neglected throughout Part II. It was by pure  chance that he was revived at the same time that the Juubi had gone on a  rampage, when the series was at its climax. His attempts at  'tangoing '  with Obito amounted to getting chopped in half, and then needing his  brother to immobilise the enemy so that he could hit him with his Gojō  Kibakufuda. The best he could do was land a few explosive tags on Obito,  but they would have been insignificant without Hashirama's input.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LostSelf (Feb 18, 2015)

I see it this way.

Tobirama's Hiraishin and skillset allows him to survive longer than the Sannin (individually) against superior enemies (Madara, for example).

And Tobirama's Hiraishin allows him to kill faster than the Sannin (individually) against an opponent they (Tobirama and the Sannin) can beat.

Therefore, even if he cannot heal an entire village, he is still superior to then in my eyes.

Oh, and.. yes, speed is a huge factor in a fact, depending on the difference. If you're opponent is fast enough to kill you before you can react (Hiraishin), speed is everything in said match,


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## FlamingRain (Feb 18, 2015)

Thunder said:


> The first four Hokage were the strongest shinobi Konoha produced at the time.​



So were the Sannin.



> Which is why a dying Jiraiya notes his personal accomplishments in life paled in comparison to their own [3]. The Hokage were able to accomplish more because they were stronger. You need power to enact change in the shinobi world [4].​



They don't have anything on defeating Jūbito.

It's not _just_ about power, though.

Hashirama's greatest accomplishment was founding the village system, Tobirama's developing its organization with the academy, Anbu, exams, and police force. _*Tsunade*_ enacted more change in the world than Jiraiya did by revolutionizing the field of medicine and the procedures field medics follow, but nobody appears to think she's _more powerful_ than he is.

The accomplishments Jiraiya was talking about didn't have any direct relation to power, which is why he cheered up after managing to willpower himself back to life and get off the secret message that would ultimately contribute to Pain's defeat even though he got no powerup doing such.



> Jiraiya spent a large portion of his life _searching_ for someone stronger than him. And he did a stellar job raising him up.​



"Waiting" may be more appropriate than "searching" if you're referring to the the Child of Prophecy thing, since Jiraiya knew it was going to be one of his students by default.

He was also supposed to _kill_ this student himself if they went down the wrong path, so I wouldn't be so sure he was necessarily _expecting_ them to be (at least that much) stronger than he was (even if that did actually end up being the case).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 18, 2015)

One of these days I'm going to make a Library thread outlining why every Hokage was the best possible person for their job at the time they held it, and how it ties into their character and skill set.  I said one of these days a couple years ago though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 18, 2015)

Tobirama lost, but this was hella impressive against the guy who just ate 9 bijuu and left Naruto for dead by blinking at them.


*Spoiler*: __ 









He jumped as the rod was touching his shirt, and went into a second surprise attack that caught Madara off guard.  Two seconds later, Madara no diffed the Sasuke that was fighting against Juubito with two generations of the fastest men alive for the second time that day.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tobirama lost, but this was hella impressive against the guy who just ate 9 bijuu and left Naruto for dead by blinking at them.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



 Well, people are just going to claim bullshit just because .....


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## Thunder (Feb 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> So were the Sannin.



The first  four Hokage were labeled the strongest soldiers in Konoha. The most  recent hype statements take precedence over ones that were made earlier.  



> It's not _just_ about power, though.
> 
> Hashirama's greatest accomplishment was founding the village system,  Tobirama's developing its organization with the academy, Anbu, exams,  and police force. _*Tsunade*_ enacted more change in the world  than Jiraiya did by revolutionizing the field of medicine and the  procedures field medics follow, but nobody appears to think she's _more powerful_ than he is.



The biggest, most important changes in the shinobi world have been made by powerful shinobi making waves.

And  Hashirama himself says none of the accomplishments you listed for him  would have been possible if he weren't strong to begin with. Hashirama's  and Madara's plans for the future had their roots in _first_ becoming stronger for a reason. 

Konoha  came about after a truce between the two strongest clans. If Hashirama  didn't become head of the Senju clan (a position he _*took*_ by becoming the _*strongest*_ in the clan) his dreams would've never came to fruition. 



> The  accomplishments Jiraiya was talking about didn't have any direct  relation to power, which is why he cheered up after managing to  willpower himself back to life and get off the secret message that would  ultimately contribute to Pain's defeat even though he got no powerup  doing such.



The relation doesn't need to be direct for it to exist. Again, look who accomplished the most in the shinobi world. 

As  far as accomplishments go, expanding medical jutsu isn't even  comparable to stopping the Jūbi, coming out on top during the warring  states era, and bringing an end to war altogether. 



> "Waiting"  may be more appropriate than "searching" if you're referring to the the  Child of Prophecy thing, since Jiraiya knew it was going to be one of  his students by default.



I'll give you that. We're just  talking semantics here though. Jiraiya's role in life was to wait for  this special person and train him. So true, lasting change could be  brought forth in the shinobi world. Tsunade put a band aid on the  problems by expanding the field of medicine. Because she lacked the _power_ to stop people from dying (ending wars). Orochimaru didn't have the _power_ to carry out his plans of stealing Itachi's body or Sasuke's body. 

The Sannin attempted to fix the problems in shinobi world in their own ways and they all failed, ultimately. 



> He was also supposed to _kill_ this student himself if they went down the wrong path, so I wouldn't be so sure he was necessarily _expecting_ them to be (at least that much) stronger than he was (even if that did actually end up being the case).



What  you're not taking into account here is this: no one said this bad  student had to be defeated at full power. But we know who the destined  child is?Naruto. We also know Jiraiya could've beaten Naruto at that  point in the story. Naruto surpassed Jiraiya _after_ Jiraiya died.  Jiraiya's death signaled the prophecy was going to be fulfilled through  Naruto. Meaning Naruto wasn't going to turn bad. And he didn't.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 19, 2015)

Thunder said:


> It  was pure chance Itachi ended Edo Tensei in time for Dan to arrive at  Tsunade's side and give her chakra. It was pure chance Orochimaru turned  good and decided to save Tsunade after she got herself bisected.
> 
> Call it plot if you want. But this is a _manga_.  Plot runs everything. Tobirama's role just came later on in the story.  His face is carved on a mountain for a reason. We all knew he was  strong, we all knew he was important. Since the beginning. The manga and  databooks alluded to that even in Part I.



Of course he is strong, he is a Hokage. But the Sannin are all Hokage-level as well. Having a face carved in a mountain in no way portrays him as obviously stronger than the Sannin, especially whenever one of those Sannin has her face carved in the mountain too. Furthermore, the databooks give Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Tsunade a ridiculous amount of hype, revering them as legends of their own era. Their hype is no less impressive than Tobirama's.





> Be specific. What could Tsunade have contributed to  that fight? What use is super strength and Byakugō against a Jūbi  Jinchūriki who causally blitzes the god of shinobi and negates ninjutsu?  Tsunade would get taken out because she lacks the jutsu, speed, and  reactions to be useful.



I would like to make it clear that pretty much anything Tobirama did in that fight to inflict damage to Obito, he did with help from Kurama Minato, Hashirama, Naruto and/or Sasuke. All four of those characters are _much_ stronger than he is. With that in mind, Tsunade getting the same help as Tobirama did could have made use of Minato's Hiraishin to get close to Obito - her ability to take hits (and recover from them) could have created ample distractions for Naruto and Sasuke to charge in and inflict damage. Minato could have also used Katsuyu divisions as a means of teleporting to safety should he place tags on a few of them. We shouldn't forget Tsunade's ability to chakra charge her team-mates either, pumping their jutsu to more impressive scales. There's also Rashinshou - if the others managed to create an opening, Tsunade could potentially immobilise Obito temporarily with it. 




> Let me rephrase thateveryone useful there_ just happened _to  possesses top-tier speed and reactions. The Sannin don't. It's not just  a coincidence the author put two Hiraishin users on the front lines.



I'm fairly certain that old Hiruzen didn't possess top-tier speed and reactions. Hashirama didn't either. So not _everyone_ did. I do recognise that Tobirama and Minato were well equipped to deal with several of Obito's attacks because of the nature of their techniques. However, that in itself doesn't make them stronger. Every shinobi has unique skills which make them more useful in certain situations. Of course, had Tsunade been there instead of Tobirama, the battle might have gone differently. At the end of the day, Tobirama's speed is his best attribute, so its only natural that he used it more than his other skills. Had the Sannin been in his position, they would have used their own individual skills to be useful in other ways.



> Gotcha. but I still don't know what does has to  do with the Sannin. The fact remainsthey're slower than Tobirama. So  what does it matter if Tobirama's slower than someone else?



I was merely talking from a _general_ portrayal perspective, and I thought you were too? When compared to Base Minato and Hashirama, Tobirama looks less impressive. Though, if he's noticeably weaker than Base Minato, someone I'd personally rank as a High Kage level shinobi, then he is surely at least close to the Sannin in power, who I would say aren't far off Base Minato.



> Kishi must be "obsessed" with Tobirama's speed as  well then since he's the one who keeps mentioning it like it's a big  deal. Maybe because it is?
> 
> I could say you're "slightly obsessed"  with placing the Sannin where they don't belong on the power-scale.  Especially when it comes to Tsunade. I like the Sannin myself but I  don't think they beat everyone. They don't _have_ to beat everyone in my eyes. They're still great characters either way.



Is speed is Tobirama's greatest asset? Yes. Is it a big deal? Yes. Is that why Kishimoto shows him successfully using it so often? Yes. But does that merit his superiority to the Sannin? No.

And anyway, what does the Sannin beating _everyone_ have to do with them beating or matching Tobirama in power? Tobirama can't beat everyone either, so I'm not sure where you're going with that point.



> Not  to lash out at you Godaime, but I'm tired of people acting like speed  isn't a factor in these fights. It is. Shinobi like Minato, A, Tobirama,  and others whose fighting styles revolve around pure speed and  reactions should've proven that.



Of course, and I have not and would not argue otherwise. However, having higher speed than your opponent does not automatically merit your superiority to them. There are numerous instances throughout the manga where a faster opponent has been matched or even out-matched by a slower opponent. Speed is not _always_ the be-all and end-all of every match-up.



> All of the major paradigm shifts which occurred in the shnobi world  occurred because the people who made the shifts had the power to make  them. It's that simple. How about we take a look at what canon shows us  and ignore our own personal opinions on the subject?
> 
> The woman who ate the fruit of the divine tree, gained _godly powers_, and ended wars which savaged the world agrees with me.
> 
> ...



Yes, combat strength builds your reputation, prestige and helps you get into power. Without Tobirama's battle strength and subsequent renown he may never have became a leader. That much is true. However, you cannot put his combat strength down as the main reason why he made such great accomplishments afterwards. How fast Tobirama can move, his skill with suiton or the number of Kage Bunshin he can create have absolutely nothing to do with his establishment of various buildings and institutions within his village. That came down to his ingenuity and intelligence as a leader. No amount of combat power could have invented those things. Likewise, to maintain those changes he didn't have to rule with an iron fist or threaten anyone with his power and reputation, he merely needed to ensure they were successful. Again, down to his ingenuity and smarts.




> A kunai to skull would put down many a shinobi as well. Doesn't mean it's likely to happen. So let's be realistic here.



If I had thought I was being unrealistic in anyway, I would not have mentioned it in the first place. 



> How do you figure Jiraiya attains Sage Mode? Why would he even go for it immediately? In a *no knowledge*  scenario base Jiraiya isn't forming multiple Kage Bunshin to prepare  for something he doesn't even know is coming, nor is he summoning the  elder toads before Tobirama begins pressuring him with his speed.  Tobirama is very familiar with Kage Bunshin himself. So he matches  Jiraiya Bunshin for Bunshin and the end result is still the samethey  all get blitzed. Blitzed by the man who made a name for himself  outpacing Sharingan.



Well, to be _realistic_, if Jiraiya was to fight Tobirama in any normal, IC circumstance in the manga, he would already have knowledge on the Nidaime's Hiraishin. That alone might be an incentive to go into Sage Mode off the bat. Even if it was, for some reason, a no knowledge match-up, the minute Jiraiya feels at all pressured by the Nidaime's speed, he's going to start resorting to more powerful techniques. 



> Tobirama  slices her in half with Suiton: Suidanha.



A relatively featless ninjutsu with no outstanding speed is not going to cut down an opponent as evasive as Tsunade.



> The same jutsu Tobirama used  to cut through the god tree.



The God tree's smaller branches were also severed by Hiruzen's adamantine staff and Mifune and fodder Samurais' blades. Heck, the Hokage and Gokage ordered thousands of fodders to start attacking and cutting down the tree. So I would reason that smaller branches like that don't seem any more durable than your average wood log. I doubt that Tsunade, with all of her durability, would be cut in half by that technique. 



> If Katsuyu sticks her body back together?  Tobirama repeats the process, but this time, he attaches some explosive  notes to one of Tsunade's sections and blows it to smithereens.



Tsunade is not being blown to smithereens by explosive tags unless she is literally plastered in them. Beginning of Part II Sakura eats an explosive tag and her body remains completely in tact, and Tsunade is infinitely more durable. He only has so many explosive tags up his sleeve too, he can't fire them out endlessly like one of Tenten's scrolls.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 19, 2015)

Thunder said:
			
		

> Tsunade's healing factor has limitations as does her body. She's not a  walking pincushion who can repair herself indefinitely.



Maybe so, but Tobirama's damage output doesn't exceed those limitations.



> If  outlasting your opponent is the only way for you to possibly win?  Clearly you're out of your league. If Tsunade were truly on Tobirama's  level that wouldn't be necessary. And what about Edo Tensei? How does  Tsunade outlast that? How does she prevent Tobirama from turning _her_ into a sacrifice?



So what? Tobirama, likewise, may only be able to defeat her by attrition. It works both ways. If there is any evidence of Tobirama turning an opponent of Tsunade's level into a sacrifice mid-battle I might consider conceding to this point, but the last time I checked, Orochimaru (who is much better at Edo Tensei than Tobirama is), needed opponents even as pathetic as Zetsu clones to be _immobilised_ before he could consider using them as sacrifices. And if we are again being _realistic_, then Tobirama is not going to _realistically_ have Edo Tensei prepared in every single battle he competes in, especially not since he prohibited the technique's use and discontinued his research into it eventually.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2015)

If Tobirama tags Tsunade, he can warp her into the sacrificial circle at will.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 19, 2015)

So then she steps out of it again before he's able to sacrifice her. In theory he could keep warping her back in, but its a huge waste of chakra when she has an easy way out each time.​​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2015)

Do you remember Kabuto's edo tensei use?  That sacrifice was fast.

*EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
*EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*

If he damages her, and warps her onto a readied circle and claps his hands, or has a clone waiting, there's not a lot she can do.  There's not a lot most characters can do.  We're also talking about the guy who invents forbidden jutsu on weekends.  He's going to have jutsu besides the couple he showed.  

If he does this to Jiraiya or Orochimaru, and summons them on his side as an edo, then any of the sannin lose anyway, because someone equal to them in strength is going to be fighting against them with Tobirama.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Do you remember Kabuto's edo tensei use?  That sacrifice was fast.
> 
> *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
> *EMS Sasuke tracked his shunshin*
> ...



Fast maybe, but not to the point that she couldn't get away. Besides, comparing Tsunade to an injured, handcuffed Fu is hardly fair. Tsunade has blitzed Orochimaru with an assortment of critical injuries, or attacked in tandem with Base Ei while mutilated by Mabui's transportation. She's perfectly capable of moving swiftly while injured, though I think its unlikely that Tobirama could injure her that much anyway. 



> There's not a lot most characters can do.  We're also talking about the guy who invents forbidden jutsu on weekends.  He's going to have jutsu besides the couple he showed.



None worthy of showing on panel. He may have a few more suiton up his sleeve and a decent mastery of some other basic ninjutsu, but nothing game changing.



> If he does this to Jiraiya or Orochimaru, and summons them on his side as an edo, then any of the sannin lose anyway, because someone equal to them in strength is going to be fighting against them with Tobirama.



Agreed, but I wouldn't see this happening unless Tobirama had had preparation, or Jiraiya/Orochimaru were unable to move or something.​​


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## LostSelf (Feb 19, 2015)

FlamingRain is viewing the thread? Let me post.

I think that Tobirama is decently capable of outlasting Tsunade with lethal shots. I mean, him slashing her throat with a sword, or warping Tsunade towards Katsuyu's acid blasts, or cutting her body into pieces with Suiton would be way easier than her regenerating said damage. Even if he cannot cut her completely with Suiton, he can easly get in position to land it on weak parts of her body like her neck.

That is, if she's tagged. But he already outmaneuvered a MS Uchiha. I think he is decently capable of doing that to either sannin. Aside from Jiraiya, as we've seen how Hiraishin fares against sensors. But even then, Jiraiya doesn't have an instant jutsu or Madara's swift speed in order to dodge him most of the time.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 19, 2015)

@ POW,

I don't think that sacrifice ritual was particularly fast...and even that guy was restrained. The first link shows an obvious build up before the ashes even really get to gathering quickly. That's why both Fū and Obito have that delayed "......!" reaction after each other as opposed to that immediate wtf just happened "!?" reaction.

Just because it doesn't take 10 minutes to do doesn't mean someone can't just step, roll, or slither out of it.

Also, person has to actually be dead before they can be brought back, meaning Tobirama can't just sacrifice a living Sannin to bring back that same Sannin. Orochimaru's more refined Edo Tensei also wasn't refined enough that the Edos came back at 100%, and Tobirama's is worse than Orochimaru's less refined use of it.

They don't have to worry about their equal joining Tobirama's side.



Thunder said:


> The first  four Hokage were labeled the strongest soldiers in Konoha. The most  recent hype statements take precedence over ones that were made earlier.



Oh. I thought you meant the strongest Konoha produced in _their_ time, like when each was in office- my mistake.

And I guess it's besides the point now but…about your second sentence:

You said earlier "with the exception of Naruto, Sasuke, and missing-nin like Madara". That wasn't expressly stated, so if most recent hype statements take precedence over ones that were made earlier then why omit Naruto, Sasuke, and Madara? You wouldn't; you would only do that if you were taking into account what we already know about them. The thing is, we also already know that the Sannin are more powerful than Hiruzen in his old age, one of those four; so why is _that_ suddenly overridden? Shouldn't we just say "and the Sannin" due to Hiruzen's presence?



> The biggest, most important changes in the shinobi world have been made by powerful shinobi making waves.



I don't think that actually detracts from the point, because I never said power that had nothing to do with it, all I said was that it isn't _just_ about power. Powerful shinobi making waves does not mean that waves are made simply by virtue of said shinobi being powerful. In other words, someone could have been just as strong as Tobirama but not been as influential without having pioneered organizational security systems like he did. Again, Jiraiya was every bit as powerful as Tsunade but he didn't have the same impact that she did. Why? Because she had more goals in mind than fighting strength. They both had the power sufficient for the important people in the village to listen to them because they were equals, but the change was contingent upon Tsunade's unique outlook (Orochimaru even suggests that Tsunade's advocacy for that change wouldn't have been there without her little brother dying).

We don't need to even assume that Jiraiya was reflecting on strength when comparing himself to the previous Hokages in that instance considering the nature of the achievement that cheered him up before he died (passing on information). The accomplishments of the Hokage he was referring to have no bearing on fighting strength; they are no stronger or weaker because of them.

That's all I'm saying.



> The relation doesn't need to be direct for it to exist.



Well then it's a good thing that I never claimed that it did.

It's strange that you would say revolutionizing the medical field isn't comparable to bringing an end to a war when it was stated that Tsunade practically handed Konoha the victory in the Second Great Ninja War.

And does it even need to be? It isn't as if establishing the academy and police force ended a war, nor is it as though Tobirama himself could have done that; dude actually went and got himself killed by one squad in one of those wars- he wasn't going to go ending it. 

Stopping the Jūbi required all of the Hokages. It was also after Jiraiya died, so I don't know why that's even being brought up because he sure as heck wasn't referencing that.



> The Sannin attempted to fix the problems in shinobi world in their own ways and they all failed, ultimately.



That isn't specific to the Sannin.

We had a chapter filled with Hokage-failure admissions to highlight them all for anybody who forgot.

Hashirama mistook the cause for the end and because of it the fighting didn't stop like he thought it would. He failed to demolish the boundaries between the clans, hostilities didn't disappear, wars kept happening and he ended up dying in one as did his younger brother.

Tobirama tried mediating for his brother while reinforcing the village and wound up heightening tensions between the Uchiha and everybody else because they thought he was just trying to keep them out of government affairs and group them all together so that they'd be easier to keep an eye on, which in the end lead to plans to rebel forming.

Hiruzen was too indulgent so he let Danzō handle the dirty work around the village because he himself couldn't (compounding the problems from Tobirama's reign), and also set Orochimaru on a dark path instead of steering him away from it. We saw how that worked out for him, didn't we? Came back and killed him, Danzō, too, and when he's revived he says it seems like all he did as Hokage was make mistakes. (Funny how eerily similar that is to Jiraiya's own remarks about himself, huh? Sure people disagreed, but they disagreed with Jiraiya as well.) 

Minato died pretty much the moment he became Hokage and admitted that he fell short of Hiruzen's expectations for him as Hokage.

"Ultimately" *every single one of them* apparently failed.



> But we know who the destined  child is—Naruto.



Jiraiya didn't, though.

I'm not talking about what actually happened, I'm talking about what Jiraiya himself may have been expecting, since you said he "spent a large portion of his life searching for someone stronger than him and he did a stellar job raising him up."

Jiraiya was waiting on a child who had the answer for peace that he couldn't come up with. That doesn't necessarily entail them being stronger than he is (for all he knew the answer had nothing to do with combat), especially if he's supposed to have the option to kill them. I mean they could have wound up being stronger than he was, _too_, but that wasn't the primary point of interest. The "be so powerful you can blow up countries at will and scare everyone into not fighting" approach didn't seem to be what he was looking for, though.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 19, 2015)

Tobirama also has soul-traveling kinjutsu he tried to use to help Sasuke. If it similar to Dan's jutsu - he can control Tsunade into deactivating Byakugo and placing explosive tags all over her body. Dude is stacked on hax.


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## trance (Feb 19, 2015)

The Sannin lose handily to anyone Nagato and above.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Tobirama also has soul-traveling kinjutsu he tried to use to help Sasuke.



That sounds more like Chiyo's Jutsu doesn't it?

Idk if he meant his own soul going by this translation, though:


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## Alex Payne (Feb 19, 2015)

Chiyo's Tensei jutsu . Tobirama's description sounded different. Viz translation might help.


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## Empathy (Feb 19, 2015)

Can I see a scan of what you mean, please AP?


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## Alex Payne (Feb 19, 2015)

Sure thing.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 19, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Chiyo's Tensei jutsu . Tobirama's description sounded different. Viz translation might help.



Yeah, but it _saves_ the soul, which is what Tobirama was trying to save.

I edited my previous post with the Viz translation.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2015)

If it's soul capturing or soul possessing that's still haxx.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> He was referring to both of the Senju bros, though, not just Tobirama. Eying the habit that Madara just pointed out, Tobirama might have been dangerous in the same sense that Kakashi had been while assisting BM Naruto against Obito, but as far as a solo performance? I don't think there's any reason to extend it that far; in fact, practically everything time and time again has pointed to him being _way_ out of his league in that case.
> 
> Pretty much starting out we know that Tobirama has been fighting Izuna since they were little kids _(1)_, and it took until adulthood for Tobirama to finally kill him _(2)_. That seems to suggest that they were relatively even, and if so, it's not hard to figure out what it means for Tobirama when _Madara_ is the one reputed to have been born with _the_ greatest and most powerful Chakra the Uchiha had ever seen, which should have included Izuna's _(3)_. Izuna being astonished that somebody was actually more powerful than his older brother when Madara admitted to Hashirama being his superior _(4)_ is perfectly consistent with that.
> 
> ...



Tobirama continued inventing jutsu long after Izuna died, which meant that he did continue growing in power and ability and knowledge, and he even kept Madara's body as his treasure trove.  Edo tensie alone is a huge boost, and we know he invented that later on, because Madara was aware of the workings, and he wouldn't have let Madara in on that if they weren't allies.  The reason it took so long for Tobirama to overcome Izuna, is because Izuna kept growing at a comparable rate to Tobirama.  Remember, both brothers kept training, and pushing each other to greater and greater heights.  It was also the death of Izuna which drove Madara to his EMS peak of power, and it is was a boost significant enough that Madara felt he alone could end both the Senju brothers and their clan. So probably Madara was stronger than his brother, but not by too much, until he got EMS and put measurable distance between himself, his brother, and Tobirama.  But somehow even that overnight boost wasn't enough to make Hashirama put his serious face on, so clearly he was the god of shinobi posing as a lesser god.  

Which is why using Hashirama's chakra isn't a proper comparison.  Hashirama could handle EMS Madara in perfect Susano and the 100% kyuubi at the same, in base, with no intent to kill.  Madara can't beat him, and never could.  He was in Hashirama's tier by merit of being the only opponent who could last 3 days and make him try.  Not to mention Hashirama had mokuton, and raw chakra and life force that put bijuu to shame.  

If I had to make a chart, I'd say Izuna<Tobirama<Madara<<Hashirama.
Prior to Madara's death, that probably looked like Izuna<<Tobirama<Madara<<Hashirama


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## FlamingRain (Feb 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tobirama continued inventing jutsu long after Izuna died, which meant that he did continue growing in power and ability and knowledge, and he even kept Madara's body as his treasure trove.  Edo tensie alone is a huge boost, and we know he invented that later on, because Madara was aware of the workings, and he wouldn't have let Madara in on that if they weren't allies. The reason it took so long for Tobirama to overcome Izuna, is because Izuna kept growing at a comparable rate to Tobirama. Remember, both brothers kept training, and pushing each other to greater and greater heights.



I don't see how Madara knowing the mechanics of Edo Tensei proves that Tobirama invented it later on. He could have invented it long before ever revealing those specific mechanics to anybody.

But that's only relevant if you can demonstrate that Tobirama's growth rate actually outpaced Madara's, because Hashirama and Madara also kept growing stronger, both before _(1)_ _and_ after _(2)_ the EMS was obtained. They _weren't_ static sans the EMS.



> It was also the death of Izuna which drove Madara to his EMS peak of power, and it is was a boost significant enough that Madara felt he alone could end both the Senju brothers and their clan. So probably Madara was stronger than his brother, but not by too much, until he got EMS and put measurable distance between himself, his brother, and Tobirama. But somehow even that overnight boost wasn't enough to make Hashirama put his serious face on, so clearly he was the god of shinobi posing as a lesser god.
> 
> Which is why using Hashirama's chakra isn't a proper comparison.  Hashirama could handle EMS Madara in perfect Susano and the 100% kyuubi at the same, in base, with no intent to kill.  Madara can't beat him, and never could.  He was in Hashirama's tier by merit of being the only opponent who could last 3 days and make him try.  Not to mention Hashirama had mokuton, and raw chakra and life force that put bijuu to shame.



The Kyūbi functions as a summon like any other boss summoning; it just happens to have the worst attitude, and that's inconsequential when Madara has it controlled with the Sharingan. It became a default ability the moment Madara reigned it in, as evidenced by his attempt to summon it during the war and only being prevented from doing it by the Kyūbi residing inside a Jinchūriki at the time. Using the Kyūbi in conjunction with final Susano'o is almost no different than Jiraiya using Gamayu Endan by collaborating with Bunta.

The entire reason Hashirama resorted to Sage Mode was because he _couldn't_ handle that in base.

I don't know what you mean by "using Hashirama's Chakra isn't a proper comparison". I think that works just fine as a comparison because Hashirama and Madara being equals fullstop isn't required to get the point across.

Hashirama's *base* Chakra makes Tobirama crap bricks. If Tobirama was truly somewhere near Madara then Hashirama's Chakra would have had a similar effect on him, but it *never* did. In fact, Madara didn't even hesitate to _charge_ a Hashirama that had entered *Sage Mode*, let alone be stunned out of a state of fear because of it. _That's_ how you can see the _vast_ disparity in power between Madara and Tobirama here.

Base Hashirama glares at Tobirama and he freezes, _(3)_

but Madara? Take a good look:

Hashirama showing signs of fatigue fighting pre-EMS Madara _(4)_.

Serious face against EMS Madara _(5)_.

Roughed up by the time Madara finally laid down _(6)_.

Madara not even so much as hesitating to charge a Sage Mode Hashirama _(7)_.

Hashirama having exhausted his Sage Mode transformation fighting against Madara at the VoTE
_(8)_ _(9)_.

Madara being ridiculously far and beyond Tobirama seems to be so obvious that it hurts.



> If I had to make a chart, I'd say Izuna<Tobirama<Madara<<Hashirama.
> Prior to Madara's death, that probably looked like Izuna<<Tobirama<Madara<<Hashirama



Mine would still look like:

Hashirama > Madara >>> Tobirama > Izuna.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 19, 2015)

> But that's only relevant if you can demonstrate that Tobirama's growth rate actually outpaced Madara's, because Hashirama and Madara also kept growing stronger, both before (1) and after (2) the EMS was obtained. They weren't static sans the EMS.



Very quickly.  I'm not saying they were static.  Hence why Tobirama and everyone else got <<over Izuna, who was static after death.  Everyone continued getting stronger except the dead guy.  Because only Haku trains in hell.



> The entire reason Hashirama resorted to Sage Mode was because he couldn't handle that in base.



Hashirama only couldn't handle the PS layered over the Kyuubi.  He did just fine when it was PS and Kyuubi fighting separately.  The PS blade inside the bijuudama ripped through all his defences, and blew down his quintuple rashoumon, which was to show us that this combo had pushed him to his limits in base.  

Considering that Madara willingly charged at Hashirama every single time, and lost, and fully expected to lose his final fight and die at VotE to get a DNA sample (that he probably could have gotten from a hair brush) and Madara being weaker than Hashirama makes a lot of sense.  Madara was a bijuu behind Hashirama, and didn't expect that to give him a victory.



> Base Hashirama glares at Tobirama and he freezes, (3)
> 
> but Madara? Take a good look:
> 
> ...



Tobirama charges straight at Super Madara, but backs down from Hashirama's chakra flair up.  Madara is surprised by, and compliments Tobirama, but wins, while Madara habitually charges Hashirama, and loses, while getting complimented by Hashirama.  Tobirama did the same thing to Madara that Madara did to Hashirama.  By the logic of chicken, Tobirama is at least normally in range of Madara to challenge him at all, because like you said several posts ago, Tobirama knowing his limits means he _wouldn't_ go fight him one on one if he couldn't win, and instead back up other people or work together with them to bring down Madara.  But that's not by what he did with his double hiraishin giri assault.  

Lastly, and again, Tobirama cooly charged Madara.  Does that sound like the action of a man traumatized by Madara who knew he couldn't possibly win?


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 20, 2015)

Well, Madara's Inferior PS outright tanked Hashirama's Wood Golem using Kurama's Bijuudama. If anything, Hashirama also benefited from utilizing Kurama. Madara's Unstabilized PS + Kurama could still easily chop anything that was left over after Hashirama's Wood Golem which pretty much pushed Hashirama to his limits. Even if he could outpace a Stabilized PS, it's not like Hashirama would've been able to do anything when his Wood Golem couldn't even subdue Madara's Weaker PS with a Bijuudama.

 Hashirama needed Sage Mode and in their next clash as Edo Tensei's, Hashirama outright uses Sage Mode, so it's not ridiculous to assume SM Hashirama > Madara > Base Hashirama.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2015)

What? By outright implication Hashirama is superior to base Madara lmao.

Hashirama was beating Madara his entire life and that doesn't change anything here. His sage mode enhancement is what was suppose to parallel Madara receiving the Kyuubi. Unless you meant that EMS Madara + Kyuubi > base Hashirama then I agree.

It basically goes Sage Hashirama = Edo Rinnegan Madara > EMS Madara + Kyuubi > Base Hashirama > EMS Madara.

Or that's what was easily implied although I believe EMS Madara with Kurama could murk Rinnegan Madara.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 20, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What? By outright implication Hashirama is superior to base Madara lmao.



 Is this why we see Madara and Base Hashirama duking it out in CQC? 



> Hashirama was beating Madara his entire life and that doesn't change anything here. His sage mode enhancement is what was suppose to parallel Madara receiving the Kyuubi. Unless you meant that EMS Madara + Kyuubi > base Hashirama then I agree.



 And this is apparently when Madara's strongest Susanoo was only V3? Even then, this was the only time that EMS Madara fought Base Hashirama where it's clear that EMS Madara's prowess are weak due to just activating the EMS.



> It basically goes Sage Hashirama = Edo Rinnegan Madara > EMS Madara + Kyuubi > Base Hashirama > EMS Madara.



 Edo Madara is outright stated to be weaker than Alive Madara. This is clear when Madara is revived. 



> Or that's what was easily implied although I believe EMS Madara with Kurama could murk Rinnegan Madara.



 Obviously, but Madara doesn't need Kyuubi to beat Base Hashirama. Not when Madara is within Hashirama's speed tier.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 20, 2015)

Hashirama was holding himself back against Madara+Kyuubi and was able to counter that combination with relative ease. Base Hashirama is superior to EMS Madara.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Very quickly.  I'm not saying they were static.  Hence why Tobirama and everyone else got <<over Izuna, who was static after death.  Everyone continued getting stronger except the dead guy.



Okay, but at the start Tobirama was equal to Izuna while Madara was already his superior and _then_ awakened his Sharingan. There was quite a gap in the beginning, and they all kept growing, meaning we don't need to expect anything to change unless it can be shown that Tobirama was growing _faster_ than Madara was, and I don't think we can show that.



> Hashirama only couldn't handle the PS layered over the Kyuubi.  He did just fine when it was PS and Kyuubi fighting separately.  The PS blade inside the bijuudama ripped through all his defences, and blew down his quintuple rashoumon, which was to show us that this combo had pushed him to his limits in base.



The only thing layering Susano'o over the Kyūbi did was stop Hashirama from using his suppression powers to make it go to sleep. Sticking a blade inside of a charging Bijūdama could have been done even if they were separate. Madara is allowed to collaborate with his own summon just like Jiraiya does with his. _That is fair game_. The Sannin are famous for their summoning techniques, nobody says that the Sannin are weaklings and it's the summons that are strong.

Your last sentence is basically a concession that Hashirama couldn't handle that in base. He hit his limits in base before Madara was ever finished with him. He would have lost had he not gone into Sage Mode, because even using Sage Mode _he was pushed to his limits_ by the time the fight was over.



> Considering that Madara willingly charged at Hashirama every single time, and lost, and fully expected to lose his final fight and die at VotE to get a DNA sample (that he probably could have gotten from a hair brush) and Madara being weaker than Hashirama makes a lot of sense.  Madara was a bijuu behind Hashirama, and didn't expect that to give him a victory.



I'm not contesting that Madara is weaker than Hashirama. What I'm saying is that there is a vast disparity between Hashirama and Tobirama, and that Madara is way closer to Hashirama than he is to Tobirama.

The fact that Tobirama freezes up when his brother gets angry tells us that Hashirama would trash him without difficulty. That's in sharp contrast to Madara who always at least gave Hashirama a hard fight, regardless of who came out on top overall. It shows us that from start _(1)_ to _(2)_ finish _(3)_ the status quo remained unchanged.

He's not a "Bijū behind Hashirama" any more than Orochimaru is a boss summoning behind Jiraiya because his has a worse temper. Kurama falls under the wide umbrella of _Madara's abilities_.



> By the logic of chicken, Tobirama is at least normally in range of Madara to challenge him at all, because like you said several posts ago, Tobirama knowing his limits means he _wouldn't_ go fight him one on one if he couldn't win, and instead back up other people or work together with them to bring down Madara.  But that's not by what he did with his double hiraishin giri assault.



Except that is _exactly_ what he did with his Hiraishingiri assault, as Madara himself goes on to point it out and Tobirama doesn't deny. He wouldn't have attacked if Madara had never been pre-occupied with the Tailed Beasts and Kages. He was doomed the moment Madara realized he was coming.



> Lastly, and again, Tobirama cooly charged Madara.  Does that sound like the action of a man traumatized by Madara who knew he couldn't possibly win?



A man now Edo Tensei'd waiting until he had an opportunity to _blindside_ Madara to ever go after him? Yes, yes it does. That isn't reflective of a one-on-one against somebody who knows they're being attacked, especially not in life.

Question, how do you think Hashirama died in those wars? Do you think it was anything other than a blindside? Surely he was not legitimately taken on and defeated.


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## Csdabest (Feb 20, 2015)

No the Sannin Suck. Their greatest feat was "NOT DEFEATING" Hanzo the Salamander


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## BurningVegeta (Feb 20, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> No the Sannin Suck. Their greatest feat was "NOT DEFEATING" Hanzo the Salamander


That pretty much shouldn't count for anything. This was their weakest performance on screen/manga. If anything they powered up hugely after this encounter. Which isn't even saying a lot since they lost to someone who's specialists in paper fucking bombs.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2015)

Tsunade catches a lesser edo Madara off guard and distracted, and barely fails to kill him.

Tobirama catches a far more powerful and more reflexive Living Sage Mode Madara off guard, and barely fails to kill him.

If Tobirama had been facing the Madara Tsunade faced, I'm pretty certain he would have gotten him with hiraishin-giri.  If Tsunade faced the Madara Tobirama faced, she would have failed miserably, instead of barely.  That should show the level difference between a Sannin and Tobirama.

Also, why are none of the Gokage sensors?  That's weird.



> Question, how do you think Hashirama died in those wars?



In universe, I don't know.  Even if he was blindsided he'd regenerate, and he's a sensor so it's not like that should happen anyway.  The only thing that makes any sense to me is that he succumbed to the same rapid aging effects Tsunade's regeneration used to have, but jutsu don't have downsides anymore.

Out of universe, Hashirama died back when power scaling made sense, and the Kyuubi was the strongest entity in the universe, who almost killed Hashirama when he and Mito sealed it.  Back then, it was reasonable to believe that a kage could be taken down by an elite team of Jonin.  I think Kishi made Part II over a structure he only built to contain Part I.  That's why the entire timeline only makes sense if you pretend part two never happened. 

-----------------------------------
Collaboration is fair game, but saying so glosses over the important progression of the fight.

Kurama and Madara fighting normally didn't work.  Perfect Susano's sword swings were caught my a wood hand, and so was the kyuubi.  Perfect Susano and Bijuudama together were countered by a wood mecha, who pinned Susano, and grabbed the bijuudama out of the air to rasengan into the PS.  This is Hashirama holding back, and you can only afford to hold back if you're in control of the fight.  
-------------------------
That said, I'm happy to drop this ---- part, because the direct comparison of Tobirama and Tsunade is more relevant and to the point of Tobirama as compared to Sannin, than Tobirama as compared to Madara as compared to Hashirama as evaluated by their fight in order to once again compare Tobirama to the Sannin.

Speaking of, where do you see Minato in relation to any given Sannin?


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## BurningVegeta (Feb 20, 2015)

^ ...the Gokage not having a sensor isn't weird. It wouldn't even be weird if all of them specialized in taijutsu. They're not a team, they're individuals that stood together. Nothing more, they weren't brought into their positions based on the skills they'd all have together.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade catches a lesser edo Madara off guard and distracted, and barely fails to kill him.
> 
> Tobirama catches a far more powerful and more reflexive Living Sage Mode Madara off guard, and barely fails to kill him.



It doesn't matter that the Madara Tobirama fought was stronger than the one Tsunade fought, because he _still_ only toyed around with him. Even though Edo Madara was generally weaker, he was still using the incredibly powerful Mokuton and EMS techniques against the Gokage, neither of which he used on Tobirama. Instead, he resorted to plain taijutsu, but even that was too much for the Nidaime to handle by himself. 



> If Tobirama had been facing the Madara Tsunade faced, I'm pretty certain he would have gotten him with hiraishin-giri.  If Tsunade faced the Madara Tobirama faced, she would have failed miserably, instead of barely.  That should show the level difference between a Sannin and Tobirama.



Hiraishin-giri is meaningless against an opponent who can regenerate endlessly, protect themselves with Susano'o or switch themselves out with mokuton clones. And anyway, Tobirama failed miserably against Alive Madara, he didn't even land a scratch, and ended up utterly trounced.​​


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## FlamingRain (Feb 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade catches a lesser edo Madara off guard and distracted, and barely fails to kill him.
> 
> Tobirama catches a far more powerful and more reflexive Living Sage Mode Madara off guard, and barely fails to kill him.
> 
> If Tobirama had been facing the Madara Tsunade faced, I'm pretty certain he would have gotten him with hiraishin-giri.  If Tsunade faced the Madara Tobirama faced, she would have failed miserably, instead of barely.  That should show the level difference between a Sannin and Tobirama.



I'm not sure it shows as big of a difference as you seem to be suggesting, though.

Tsunade failed to kill him because she didn't know that Susano'o has no effect on Susano'o, not because Madara reacted to her in time to counter. She broke the sword, pushed it out and grabbed it, swung, the blade stopped when it came into contact with the Susano'o aura, and _then_ Madara retaliated. That's why he explained to her that his own Jutsu wouldn't work on him and Ohnoki jumped in saying that his ought to do it.

Hiraishingiri could have gotten him _if_ Susano'o wasn't up, but then...Tsunade could have as well in that case...

When Tobirama attacked Madara he failed because the guy just countered him right away.



> ---
> Collaboration is fair game, but saying so glosses over the important progression of the fight.
> ---



Perhaps it does to some extent, but then again...Hashirama still had Sage Mode activated when the Nine Tails went nighty-night, and he was still uninjured at that point, too.

So how do you think he ran out of Sage Mode and sustained those injuries before finally beating Madara?

It seems to me that Madara had to be strong enough to give Hashi one heck of a fight even _without_ Kurama either way, which is more than enough to put Madara way closer to Hashirama than Tobirama could ever dream of, and thus justify his claim that Hashirama was the only one who could compete with him.



> That said, I'm happy to drop this ---- part, because the direct comparison of Tobirama and Tsunade is more relevant and to the point of Tobirama as compared to Sannin, than Tobirama as compared to Madara as compared to Hashirama as evaluated by their fight in order to once again compare Tobirama to the Sannin.



Oh, well I quoted you initially because I disagreed with your comment that Tobirama hangs competitively around the mecha mountain busting combatants.

I do agree that he's stronger than any single Sannin. It's just that, if you think that aforementioned tier is where somebody needs to be in order to beat all three Sannin then Tobirama doesn't even come close to qualifying, at least in my eyes as of today.



> Speaking of, where do you see Minato in relation to any given Sannin?



_Living_ Minato?

A little higher up the same tier; he's stronger, but not sizably so.

Fighting one Sannin is hard enough, and they might even win on occasion (Orochimaru especially).

Two should just plain beat him outright.

All three would devastate him.


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Is this why we see Madara and Base Hashirama duking it out in CQC?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet Hashirama always comes out on top yes or no?

When Madaras strongest Sussano was V4, Hashirama most likely didn't have wood golem or wood dragon. His arsenal wasn't even shown but he was still superior to Madara . 

Edo Madara was also stated to be stronger then his alone incarnation. I'm speaking about Edo Madara being > to VOTE Madara who didn't have the Rinnegan. You have to realize that Edo Madara has EMS + Rinnegan + Moukton, which makes up for the physical difference. The alive Madara that was revived was superior to the VOTE Madara via his Rinnegan and Mokuton.

VOTE EMS Madara would NEVER have beaten base Hashirama without Kyyubi and that's literally a fact .


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 20, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Yet Hashirama always comes out on top yes or no?
> 
> When Madaras strongest Sussano was V4, Hashirama most likely didn't have wood golem or wood dragon. His arsenal wasn't even shown but he was still superior to Madara .



 I'm certain Madara used V3 Susanoo, the same one used against the Gokage.

 Base Hashirama never came out on top during their final clash. Hell, we clearly see that he didn't when Tobirama killed Izuna. He was only slightly inferior at best which was prior to attaining the EMS and attaining Perfect Susanoo. I'd be willing to bet his chakra output and reserves were far inferior to what they were at VoTE which would mean all of his stages of Susanoo would have a massive boost.

 Wood Golem also couldn't do anything to Madara's Inferior PS which outright tanked the Bijuudama that Hashirama grabbed while Hashirama's Wood Golem got blown to bits. Hell, the next Mokuton jutsu used was fodderized by a PS slash.

 Hell, Wood Golem from SM Hashirama is portrayed to be on par with Madara's PS when they were revived as Edo Tensei's.



> Edo Madara was also stated to be stronger then his alone incarnation. I'm speaking about Edo Madara being > to VOTE Madara who didn't have the Rinnegan. You have to realize that Edo Madara has EMS + Rinnegan + Moukton, which makes up for the physical difference. The alive Madara that was revived was superior to the VOTE Madara via his Rinnegan and Mokuton.



 You're assuming Edo Madara was revived at his prime self when Kabuto couldn't revive Nagato with his mobility?

 Edo Madara is far inferior to VoTE Madara. This is why when he was revived, he went as far as to just steal Hashirama's Senjutsu using just sheer speed. Hell, he outright stated in the actual translation that his body had become more accustomed to battle, which meant that his physical state surpassed his Edo state. Blind Madara also didn't use Rinnegan to show his superior physical stature. Mokuton is debatable, but due to what Madara actually stated about being accustomed to battle, I'd be willing to bet his physical stats improved after being revived.



> VOTE EMS Madara would NEVER have beaten base Hashirama without Kyyubi and that's literally a fact .



 Is that why Wood Golem had to rely on a Bijuudama from 100% Kurama to try to dent Madara's Inferior PS which failed miserably as Wood Golem got blown to bits while Madara's Inferior PS was not?


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## Veracity (Feb 20, 2015)

That's not to hard to refute but I'll just make a thread and everyone will debate it there .


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 21, 2015)

^ Fair enough. 

 I also want to see how this debate will turn out even though things look grim for me.


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