# top 20 strongest people in naruto



## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 17, 2009)

you dont have to agree
i know this has probably been done before, i wa just interested in eveybody's views, heres my list:

1.   Sage of the Six Paths
2.   Madara Uchiha
3.   Hashirama Senju
4.   Minato Namikaze
5.   Hiruzen Sarutobi
6.   Nagato/Pain
7.   Tobirama Senju
8.   Sasuke Uchiha
9.   Naruto Uzumaki
10. Itachi Uchiha
11. Jiraiya
12. Raikage
13. Killerbee
14. Kisame Hoshigaki
15. Orochimaru
16. Danzo
17. Kimimaro Kaguya
18. Hanzo
19. Kakuzu
20. Jugo


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 17, 2009)

changing my list slightly sorry 

1.   Sage of the Six Paths
2.   Madara Uchiha
3.   Minato Namikaze
4.   Hashirama Senju
5.   Nagato/Pain
6.   Hiruzen Sarutobi
7.   Tobirama Senju
8.   Itachi Uchiha
9.   Naruto Uzumaki
10. Sasuke Uchiha
11. Raikage
12. Jiraiya
13. Kisame Hoshigaki
14. Killerbee
15. Orochimaru
16. Danzo
17. Kimimaro Kaguya
18. Hanzo
19. Kakuzu
20. Jugo


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## The Pink Ninja (Oct 17, 2009)

1) Sakura
2) Sakura's KBs
3) Part one Sakura
4) The Sakura who travelled back in time to save the earth
5) Superman
6) Norman
7) Tonton
8) Ayame
9) Bruce Ironstaunch
10) A clone of Sakura
11) Goku
12) The God-damn Batman
13) The power of love
14) Universal entropy
15) Yahweh
16) Lucifer
17) Dream of the Endless
18) The hormones of teenaged boys
19) Queen Elizabeth the Second
20) Sakura (Asleep)


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## Trivub (Oct 17, 2009)

there are 1000 shinobi that are just as strong as Jugo, he's no top 20 material. nah ah


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## mastergimmy (Oct 17, 2009)

im surprised jugo is on the list and kakashi or other elites such as gai, asuma or hidan or anyone otehr akatsuki thats not on he list poons jugo. i cant be bothered listing 20

1. Sage of the 6 paths
2. Madara
3. Hashirama
4. Pain
5. Yonadaime

The last 4 can be rearranged any way


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 17, 2009)

i thought about that an kakashi would be just outside jugo
its just that apparently only kimimaro could stop jugo and yeh fair enough i thought about akatsuki, but then i thought hidan, could win if he could hit jugo,so possibly, deidara, i would think jugo could beat, itachi, pein, madara, kakuzu and kisame are already on the list as well as orochi, zetsu is unproven, sasori i was also considering, i just put in jugo cos he has seemed to take on a lot of strong people so far and come out not too bad from it all


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 17, 2009)

oh right from 21-30 mine are
21. Kakashi
22. Sasori
23. Gaara
24. Suigetsu
25. Deidara
26. Shikamaru
27. Hidan
28. Tsunade
29. Kabuto
30. Guy

Im suprised you think guy is stronger than kakashi after how kakakshi performed against kakuzu
also Yamato should be noted as my 31st choice


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## kry0n (Oct 17, 2009)

Imo, cause of Hachimon Tonkou, Gai has advantage over many shinobis. Do you really think that Suigetsu, Shikamaru, Hidan and Kabuto are better than Gai? Imagine Gai @ 7 gates against these oponents


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## Innerhype (Oct 17, 2009)

Is there any reason this list is the way it is beyond the preconceived notion of "just because"?

Otherwise I'm thinking this is the wrong place for this.


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## Hiruzen (Oct 17, 2009)

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi
3. Nagato/Pain
4. Hashirama Senju/Madara Uchiha
5. Minato Namikaze
6. Naruto Uzumaki
7. Sasuke Uchiha
8. Tobirama Senju
9. Itachi Uchiha/Jiraiya
10. Raikage
11. Tsuchikage
12. Sakumo Hatake
13. Orochimaru
14. Tsunade
15. Killer Bee
16. Sasori
17. Kakuzu
18. Mizukage
19. Kakashi Hatake
20. Gaara

Seriously people, Kimimaro does not belong on a top twenty list, more like a top fifty. He compares little to the current power levels.

I did some thinking about this, and there may be people who belong on that list that I did not put on that list. Those are

Kisame Hoshigaki
Gai 
Kabuto Yakushi
Danzo
Hanzou
Zetsu
Third Kazekage
Chiyo
Deidara


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## Riamu (Oct 17, 2009)

Naruto is not stronger than Sasuke FFS.


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## Rampage (Oct 17, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> you dont have to agree
> i know this has probably been done before, i wa just interested in eveybody's views, heres my list:
> 
> *20. Jugo*





uchiha itachi 92 said:


> changing my list slightly sorry
> 
> 
> *20. Jugo*



hahahha are you guys serious?


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> changing my list slightly sorry
> 1.   Sage of the Six Paths
> 2.   Madara Uchiha
> 3.   Minato Namikaze
> 4.   Hashirama Senju



Just thought I would let you know that Hashirama beat Madara.....oh, and that Minato couldn't. 

Kinda weird you would place them both above him.


As for my take:

I say its really too hard to actually make a list on who is the most powerful. The reason for this is because there is no real linear scale. You could have someone like Orochimaru at say.....15 and Jiraiya at 5 and Itachi at 6. Now we know Itachi beats Oro, but there is also the possibility that Oro beats Jiraiya. So how do you really scale it? 

I think the question really becomes which shinobi is best matched against the most other shinobi and again, that question really can't be answered due to either lack of feats from a lot of them or lack of comparable feats from people who never battled mutual opponents. 

Far too much guesswork. I think it is easier to say which 10 ninja are like the baddest in history, but I don't think you could place them in a proper order.


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## Ram (Oct 17, 2009)

Hmm didn't Madara get his ass beat by Shodai?


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Tower Bridge said:


> Hmm didn't Madara get his ass beat by Shodai?



Only if you read Kishi's version. If you read the Uchiha tard retcon version it is a completely different story.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 17, 2009)

well imo jiraiya would beat orochi
and i think naruto sage mode could at least match sasuke
also,maybe i was wrong with jugo, kakashi is in now instead
i am placing current madara higher because of the space time jutsu and current control of seven tailed beasts in his control
also, imo minato is better than hashirama, just slightly


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 17, 2009)

also, cyphon i take into account what you are saying, but madara is still alive and hashirama is dead, not taking anything away from him
as for minato, there have been many claims that he was the most powerful ninja eg a run on sight warning in the ninja war


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Oct 17, 2009)

Is this list in character, cause seriously Kakashi could MS some of these guys heads off from a tree if he just wanted too... He didnt do it to Pain for unknown reasons, he was to weak at the end of the battle to do it...

With what we have seen from Oro im pretty sure Kakashi could MS him aswell.


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## Bushido Brown (Oct 17, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Jairaya
6. Nageto/Pain
7. Killer Bee
8. Itachi Uchiha
9. Kisame Hoshigaki
10. Hiruzen Sarutobi
11. Raikage
12. Naruto Uzumaki
13. Sasuke Uchiha
14. Hanzou
15. Danzou
16. Tobirama Senju
17. Orochimaru
18. Kakuzu
19. Kakashi
20. Gai
18.


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## Vegeta's Urine (Oct 17, 2009)

1.Rikiduo Sennin
2.Nagato
3.Hashirama
4.Madara
5.Minato
6.Naruto
7.Hiruzen
8.Hanzou
9.Jiraiya
10.Itachi


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2009)

1-Rikudo-Sage
2-Madara(Prime)
3-Minato
4-Sarutobi(Prime)
5-Shodai
6-Nagato
7-Kisame
8-Zetsu
9-Naruto
10-Uchiha Izuna
11-White Fang
12-Sasori
14-Raikage
15-Jiraiya
16-Killer Bee
17-Itachi
18-Sasuke 
19-Orochimaru
20-Garaa

Not Sure Where to Rate Mizukage, Mifune, Danzo, or Tsuchikage so they could be on the list or just a little bit bellow the list.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2009)

Rikudou makes it to the top of everyone's list now.


1. The Rikudou Sennin.
2. Nagato.
3. Madara [space-time Ninjutsu, doubt Hashirama can touch him if he had that].
4. Zetsu.
5. Kabuto.
6. Naruto.
7. Sasuke.
8. Minato.
9. Itachi.
10. Jiraiya.
11. Orochimaru.
12. Minato.
13. Hiruzen [prime].
14. Hashirama [no Biju].
15. Raikage.
16. Tsuchikage.
17. Mizukage.
18. Gaara.
19. Kakashi.
20. Kisame.

Might've bullshitted a bit to complete my list.


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## Violent by Design (Oct 17, 2009)

In no order. 

- Rikidu Sage
- Pain
- Itachi
- Madara
- The 3rd Kazekage

- Hiruzen Sarutobi
- Jiraya
- Orochimaru
- Danzou
- Hatake Sakumo

- Namakaze Minato
- Raikage
- Kirabi
- Uchiha Sasuke
- Sasori

- Henzo the Salamander 
- Kakuzu 
- Naruto
- Senju Hashirama
- Deidara


The last 2 spots were hard to rate. It was between Gaara, Senju Hashirama , Senju Tobirama & Deidara. Yes I know Kakuzu and Madara are on the list w/o dispute despite Hashirama beating both of them, but that was many moons ago. I decided to go with Deidara since he defeated Gaara and he could do it again if he wanted too.


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

My list, no order

- Rikudou Sennin
- Madara
- Hashirama
- Minato
- Jiraiya
- Itachi
- White Fang
- Raikage
- Nagato
- Hanzou

- Hiruzen (prime)
- Orochimaru
- Sasuke
- Naruto
- Killer Bee
- Sasori
- 3rd Kazekage
- Kakashi
- Gaara 
- Tsuchikage

Honorable mentions that could probably move in and out on some spots on the list go to:

Kakuzu, Mizukage and Tobirama.

Not sure if I missed anyone else.


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## Violent by Design (Oct 17, 2009)

Kakashi over Kakuzu ?


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## Cyphon (Oct 17, 2009)

Violent By Design said:


> Kakashi over Kakuzu ?



Like I said, some are interchangeable. 

I think Kakashi is or will be the best all around ninja we have seen in the entire manga and I am trying to include all factors....including team and leadership and all that. 

I stand by the fact that it is impossible to make a correct list though, so bare with me please VBD san.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2009)

Violent By Design said:


> Kakashi over Kakuzu ?



Mangekyou Sharingan: Kamui?


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Oct 17, 2009)

My list, excluding Rikudou's two children, Kabuto,Izuna, Danzou, Mizukage, Gaara,Third Kazekage, Oonoki and Zetsu:
1)Rikudou Sannin
2)Hashirama Senju
3)Madara Uchiha
4)Nagato
5)Hiruzen Sarutobi
6)Naruto Uzumaki
7)Minato Namikaze
8)Salamander Hanzou
9)Sakumo Hatake
10)Itachi Uchiha
11)Jiraiya
12)Sasuke Uchiha
13)Raikage
14)Orochimaru
15)Kisame Hoshigaki/Tsunade
16)Killer Bee
17)Red Sand's Sasori
18)Chiyo
19)Kakashi Hatake
20)Kakuzu/Deidara
Third Kazekage had to be very strong since he was the strongest Mizukage ever; Danzou was Sarutobi's rival and has a powerful Sharingan; Zetsu is seemingly able to compete with Kages but we don't know how powerful is him; Kabuto with his new power should be a badass; Izuna had to be very strong since he was on par with MS Madara despite him being the younger brother; Oonoki had to be a beast in his prime; we don't know how strong is Godaime Mizukage; Rikudou's children had to be very strong; we don't know how powerful is Gaara without his bijuu.


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## Mist Puppet (Oct 17, 2009)

No particular order.

-Rikudou Sennin
-Nagato
-Jiraiya
-Orochimaru
-Kisame

-Itachi
-Madara
-Hiruzen (Prime)
-Minato
-Hashirama

-Sasori
-Gaara
-Naruto
-Sasuke
-Raikage

-Kakuzu
-Mizukage
-Killer Bee
-Hatake Sakumo
-Hanzou


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## Drewto1 (Oct 17, 2009)

1)Nagato
2)Itachi
3)Minato
4)Orochimaru
5)Jiraiya
6)Tsunade
7)Kakashi
8)Sasuke
9)Yamato
10)Sai
11)Kabuto
12)Gaara
13)Hidan
14)Kakuzu
15)Shikamaru
16)Deidara
17)Neji
18)Kisame
19)Sasori
20)Sakura


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## Kinjishi (Oct 17, 2009)

In no definitive order, because that would be nearly impossible to do:

-Senju Hashirama
-Sarutobi Hiruzen
-Jiraiya
-Namikaze Minato
-Uchiha Madara

-Nagato/Pain
-Uchiha Itachi
-Kakuzu
-Orochimaru
-Senju Tobirama

-Sasori
-Hanzou
-Raikage
-Killer Bee
-Hatake Sakumo

-Tsunade
-Hatake Kakashi
-Maito Gai
-Uzumaki Naruto
-Uchiha Sasuke


Anyone left off this list was likely too difficult to include or find a place for. Hoshigaki Kisame, Deidara, Danzou, and Gaara should all be mentioned.


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## ? (Oct 17, 2009)

Tier 0: GOD Tier
rikudo sennin

Tier 1 : top of the shinobi world
1.shodai
2.madara
3.nagato
4.minato
5.sarutobi prime

Tier 2:runner-ups
6.naruto
7.raikage
8.killer bee
9.hanzo 
10.zetsu

Tier 3

11.jiraiya
12.itachi
13.orochimaru
14.sasuke
15.kisame

Tier 4

16.kakashi
17.deidara
18.tsunade
19.gaara
20.kakuzu

this is the most accurate list there is


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## kry0n (Oct 17, 2009)

Tier 0:
-Rikudou

Tier 1:
- Hiruzen
- Hashirama
- Minato
- Madara
- Hanzou 
- Pain
*- 8 Gates Gai*

Tier 2:
- Jiraya
- White Fang 
- Itachi
- Izuna
- Tobirama 
- Raikage
- Danzo 
- Tsuchikage 
- Mizukage 
- 3rd Kazekage 
- 4th Kazekage 

Tier 3:
- Naruto 
- Killer Bee 
- Orochimaru 
- Sasuke 
- Sasori 
- Tsunade
- Kisame 

Tier 4:
*- Base Gai *
- Zetsu
- Deidara  
- Kakuzu 
- Kakashi 
- Kabuto 
- Kimimaro


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## cows are fat (Oct 17, 2009)

Sage of Six Paths
Madara Uchiha
Hashirama Senju
Minato Namikaze
Nagato
Itachi Uchiha
Kisame Hoshigaki
Raikage


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## Soul (Oct 17, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Nagato
6. Uchiha Itachi
7. Hanzou 
8. Raikage
9. Sasori 
10. Jiraiya
11. Killer Bee
12. Uzumaki Naruto
13. Deidara
14. Uchiha Sasuke
15. Hiruzen Sarutobi
16. Kakuzu
17. Kazekage Gaara
18. Orochimaru
19. Kisame
20. Hatake Kakashi

No order below the tenth character.


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## the box (Oct 18, 2009)

1. rikudo/kabuto (it gonna happen  )
2. PAIN 
3.minato
4.hiruzen
5.shodia
6.naruto
7.riakage
8.killer bee
9.jiraya
10.itachi
11.orochimaru
12.sasuke
13.kisame
14.kakshi
15.danzo
16.tobi
17.gaara
18.tuchikage
19.mizukage
20.GIA


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## ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE (Oct 18, 2009)

OMG, in my list there should be Tobirama, too, sorry!
However, why are so many people putting Minato so above Naruto? He is supposed to have surpassed both him and Jiraiya, so at least he shouldn't be far from him.
The real problem is estabilishing who was the most powerful after Rikudou Sannin. 
My guess is either Hashirama or Madara, but it was stated Hiruzen in his prime was the strongest Hokage and Nagato had godlike powers. And we don't know how strong were Rikudou's two children.


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## Kno7 (Oct 18, 2009)

Drewto1 said:


> 1)Nagato
> 2)Itachi
> 3)Minato
> 4)Orochimaru
> ...



Sakura in the top 20? Whereas you leave out ninja like Raikage, Nagato, Mizukage, KillerBee....



ROKUDAIMEHOKAGE said:


> OMG, in my list there should be Tobirama, too, sorry!
> However, why are so many people putting Minato so above Naruto? He is supposed to have surpassed both him and Jiraiya, so at least he shouldn't be far from him.


In terms of power, yes he might have surpassed them. But in terms of speed, knowledge, genjutsu, he's way under. Factor in leadership skills, how many less jutsu he knows compared to both of them and whatnot, and Naruto deserves to be under both of them.


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## gkrt (Oct 18, 2009)

Okay, this is the REAL list, guys.

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi.
3. Hashirama Senju/Madara Uchiha.
4. Hashirama Senju/Madara Uchiha.
5. Tobirama Senju.
6. Nagato.
7. Naruto Uzumaki.
8. Minato Namikazi/Itachi Uchiha/Hanzo.
9. Minato Namikaze/Itachi Uchiha/Hanzo.
10. Minato Namikaze/Itachi Uchiha/Hanzo.
11. Raikage.
12. Jiraiya.
13. Sasori.
14. Kisame/Killer Bee.
15. Kisame/Killer Bee.
16. Onoki.
17. Deidara.
18. Kakuzu.
19. Orochimaru.
20. Sasuke.


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## Luxiano (Oct 18, 2009)

So much biased top 20 , there are people who actually thinks Jiraiya/Hanzou > Nagato but he murdered them both somewhat  also Naruto/Sasuke should not be ranked until the manga end imo + so far nobody without pre-knowledge can defeat Pain nor Itachi .


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## Trivub (Oct 18, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> i thought about that an kakashi would be just outside jugo
> its just that apparently only kimimaro could stop jugo and yeh fair enough i thought about akatsuki, but then i thought hidan, could win if he could hit jugo,so possibly, deidara, i would think jugo could beat, itachi, pein, madara, kakuzu and kisame are already on the list as well as orochi, zetsu is unproven, sasori i was also considering, i just put in jugo cos he has seemed to take on a lot of strong people so far and come out not too bad from it all



Kimimaro could keep Jugo calm, that's something else than being the only one that can defeat him.


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## firework (Oct 18, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> well imo jiraiya would beat orochi
> and i think naruto sage mode could at least match sasuke
> also,maybe i was wrong with jugo, kakashi is in now instead
> i am placing *current* madara higher because of the space time jutsu and *current* control of seven tailed beasts in his control
> also, imo minato is better than hashirama, just slightly



by current standards, minato, and half of your list are corpses.
i dont think we should include ppl we dont know much about eg namikaze


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 19, 2009)

i like all these lists but itachi is stronger than kisame, kisame admitted that much


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## Panos (Oct 19, 2009)

Cyphon said:


> Just thought I would let you know that Hashirama beat Madara.....oh, and that Minato couldn't.
> 
> Kinda weird you would place them both above him.
> 
> ...



Itachi beats Jiraiya....


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## breakbeat oratory (Oct 19, 2009)

1. Kisame
2. Kisame
3. Kisame
4. Kisame
5. Kisame
6. Kisame
7. Kisame
8. Kisame
9. Kisame
10. Kisame
11. Kisame
12. Kisame
13. Kisame
14. Kisame
15. Kisame
16. Kisame
17. Kisame
18. Kisame
19. Kisame
20. Kisame


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## kry0n (Oct 19, 2009)

peaceful said:


> Itachi beats Jiraiya....



I'm not sure about this


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## Lord Stark (Oct 19, 2009)

Rikudou(Revered as a God)

Sarutobi Hiruzen(Prime)(God of Shinobi)
Madara/Shodai
Yondaime/Naruto
Pain
Hanzou
Danzou(Had to be Sarutobi's rival for a reason)

Kisame

Itachi/Jiraiya/Orochimaru
Raikage
Gaara/Sasuke/Kakashi
Tsuchikage
Mizukage
Kiribi
Kakuzu

Honorable mention: Nidaime, The other Jinchuriki (Yugito was respected by Kiribi), Tsunade.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Oct 19, 2009)

breakbeat oratory said:


> 1. Kisame
> 2. Kisame
> 3. Kisame
> 4. Kisame
> ...



great, cheers for that


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## Taltos (Oct 19, 2009)

My list is based on characters in their prime and the order is determined by the character's ability to beat the names below them with blood lust and equal preparation time. Names lose rank if there is a less definite description of their power. I do show favoritism to leaf nin, because they're supposed to be the best.

1. The Rikudou Sennin. -clear winner
2. Nagato -ultimate power of life and death 
3. Shodai -beat madara in prime
4. Madara -stronger than minato
5. Minato -youngest kage chosen over sannin to surpass young sarutobi
5. Hiruzen Sarutobi -knew all jutsu, beat WELL prepared ORO at end of life
6. Naruto -Kyubbi plus sage mode and genius, strongest will.
7. Sasuke -MS plus youth and most talent
8. Itachi -all the powers of MS
9. Kakashi -MS plus wisdom
10. Hanzo -beat sannin
11. White Fang -said to be stronger than the sannin
12. Jiraiya -strongest sannin, legitamate hokage level
13. Orochimaru -he has the second most jutsu, most passion
14. Mizukage -two blood techs
15. Kisame -bijuu power and seven swordsman
16. Killer Bee -perfect bijuu combo
17. Gaara -lost his bijuu, stronger than raikage
18. Zetsu -fooled all the kages
19. Kakuzu -five hearts gave kakashi alot of trouble, immortal
20. Tsunade>Sasori>Diedra


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## Amarillion (Oct 20, 2009)

1.Rikudou
2.1st
3.Madara
4.Naruto
5.3rd
6.Kisame
7.Nagato
8.Sasori
9.Jiraya
10.Raikage.
11.Bee
12.Itachi
13.Orochimaru
14.Deidara
15.2nd
16.WhiteFangOfKonoha
17.Hanzo
18.Kakuzu
19.SmallLittleKage
20.Sasuke


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## Jermaine (Oct 20, 2009)

Taltos said:


> My list is based on characters in their prime and the order is determined by the character's ability to beat the names below them with blood lust and equal preparation time. Names lose rank if there is a less definite description of their power. I do show favoritism to leaf nin, because they're supposed to be the best.
> 
> 1. The Rikudou Sennin. -clear winner
> 2. Nagato -ultimate power of life and death
> ...



Naruto is far from a genius and Sasori>Tsunade.


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## Olympian (Oct 20, 2009)

kry0n said:


> Tier 0:
> -Rikudou
> 
> Tier 1:
> ...



8 Gates Gai never made an appearance. 

And base Gai is in Tier 4 but Asuma who is all around better isent?


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## MasterHentai (Oct 20, 2009)

Hm....ok im just going to express my honest opinion and tell a little bit about why. and of course we are talking about when they were in their prime, or if they are currently in their prime.

NUMBER ONE!!!
........rikudou sennin 
(created the ninja world. "god" among all shinobi, host of the ultimate 10 tailed bijuu.)

2. Hashirama 1st hokage 

(one of the children under rikudou, defeated madara+kyuubi, an absolute true warrior)

3. Uchiha Madara :repstorm

(one of the children under rikudou, rival of hashirama, leader of uchiha clan, still alive in current manga )

4. Sarutobi 3rd Hokage 

(said to be "the most skilled of all hokages" by many shinobi, knew every jutsu konoha, was still quite the badass at like age 90, wise and had more strength because of the will and passion to protect his villiage)

5. Minato 4th hokage 

(youngest of all hokages, invented rasengan _even though he never got time to perfect it_ fastest of all known shinobi.....seriously >.<; was the most talented ninja prodigy to ever come from konoha, split and sealed kyuubi into 2 different places the "_ying and the yang_")

6. Jiraiya 

( best all round sannin, defeated 3 peins with no knowledge of anything only to die because he thought he had defeated them and had no knowledge that their were other pein bodies >_<, knows a good array of devastating jutsu, expert at toad summoning and collaberation, taught yondi, and taught by 3rd, his creative and can easily catch other shinobi off guard,undying will, wise and tactical.)

7. all 6 paths of pein - _nagato_ 

(nagato alone wouldnt be in the top 10 for me, but when controlling the other 6 corpses he kinda has to be in it. has the rinnegan, chibaku tensei, and he destroyed konoha, has an enormous amount of chakra _i think_
defeated jiraiya, has a good hiding spot.....-___-; )

8. Uchiha Itachi 

(probably the most talented and skilled shinobi to come from the uchiha clan, besides madara; extremely elusive and tricky, posesses MS, has susanoo, great with kage bunshins, and  deadly genjutsu as well as well refined ninjutsu, and taijutsu to boot.)

 <---this is where i insert other village kages and such....

9. hanzo of the salamander 

(extremely feared shinobi of his time, probably could have defeated young sannin, leader of rain villiage, ruthless killer, kage level _if he wasn't already a kage_ controlled salamanders who mostlikely possesed some pretty sick powers and jutsu combos)

10. naruto 

( *cough* _the main character_ *cough* perfected sage mode _but only for a short period of time, or else he might be higher on the list_, shown himself to be very cunning, kage bunshin spammer, kyuubi chakra, 3 different kinds of chakra, fuuton rasenshuriken, very durable, the guts to never give up, yondi's son  )

11. can you guess who? thats right....the sauce 

(naruto's rival, Ms user, child prodigy, naturally very gifted, now posseses an incomplete susanno and power of darkness, powered by hate and revenge, knows a good array of raiton techniques, powerful genjutsu and very skilled in ninjutsu and taijutsu to boot.)

12. kisame 
(bijuu level chakra, has the deadliest of the 7 swords, hasn't fought at his full potential yet....not even close actually. though he doesn't have much feets.....its just a gut feeling that he's INCREDIBLY powerful, and he's part shark ....seriously though, i think we have to watch out for kisame. )

13. orochimaru 

(expected to have been hokage before yondi, but was corrupted. knew a huge array of jutsu, including many forbbiden ones. extremely elusive and can seem to tank any sort of hit that doesn't involve strait blowing him up. weilds kusanagi. can be extremely deadly atop Manda. knowledgeable and ruthless)

14. killerbee 

(pretty much a perfect jinchuuriki, extremely skilled swordsman, enormous strength and agility)

15. Tsunade 

(big breas-...i mean well...she is the godaime, umm, SUPER strength, the greatest medic we've seen)


16. sasori 

(....had to die somehow lol......but um, yah, puppet master, controlled hundreds of puppets including the previous kazekage, deadly arsenal of weaponry, sasori 101...everything has poison on it, EVEN THE FIRE O_____O)

17. deidara 

(very smart and tricky, good ariel fighter, hard to predict, unique clay jutsu)

18. kimimaro 

(very unique and powerful kekkei genkai, very agile swift and smart, curseseal, indestructable bonez, powerful ultimate jutsu, talented)

19. shikamaru: 

(.....all answers lay inside this boys mind)

20. THE KONOHA SPECIAL JOUNIN....HURRAYYYY  

( incredible talent among all of them, each with their own unique style and jutsu, can handle any A rank shinobi if they wanted to, Konoha does produce the most talent after all......)




after sasuke it can really vary...
but what do you all think???


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## Lord Stark (Oct 20, 2009)

MasterHentai said:


> Hm....ok im just going to express my honest opinion and tell a little bit about why. and of course we are talking about when they were in their prime, or if they are currently in their prime.
> 
> NUMBER ONE!!!
> ........rikudou sennin
> ...



...you included the Konoha Special Jounin, Shikamaru, and Kimimaro...but not the 5 Kage...


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## kry0n (Oct 20, 2009)

Olympian said:


> 8 Gates Gai never made an appearance.
> 
> And base Gai is in Tier 4 but Asuma who is all around better isent?



I know this, but it's based on databook, the 8th gate buffs all the other 7 gates power and still maximizes the char power and makes it higher than kage level, it would be total smash

Cause imo, Base Gai > Asuma. I didn't mention Asuma cause there are some better shinobi than him, btw I wasn't suppose to make a tier 5


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## Kind of a big deal (Oct 20, 2009)

1- Rikudo (powered by 10 tails)
2- Nagato (makes Konoha a giant crater, nobody else can do this with their own power)
3- Hashirama (lots of tailed beasts at his command)
4- Hanzou (everybody in the world fears him)
5- Hiruzen (wealth of jutsu and experience)
6- Raikage (speedblitzes people with sharingan vision, and breaks susano with his elbow)
7- Kisame (might be disqualified in this list for not being human enough, almost a bijuu)
8- Itachi (in many ways the perfect shinobi)
9- Killer Bee (completely wtfpwned Sasuke casually)
10- Naruto (even though there were circumstances, he took on Nagato)
11- Sasuke (his evilness that gives him potential, is greater than Madara)
12- Madara (Hashirama's rival in life)
13- Orochimaru (he just won't go down no matter what you throw at him, even death)
14- Sasori (a single scratch from his army of 100+ and you lose)
15- Minato (his speed puts him in here)
16- Jiraiya (sage mode and wide array of strong frog type jutsu)
17- Deidara (roughly the same explosive power as Nagato)
18- Gaara (never really used Shukaku anyway, at least now he can sleep and rest)
19- Tobirama (better fighter than Hashirama but a lot less bijuu's)
20- Danzou (makes you believe you have to lose)


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## Seon (Oct 20, 2009)

1. Rikudo Sennin (sage of the Six paths)
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Itachi Uchiha
6. Nagato (Pein)
7. Hiruzen Sarutobi
8. Tobirama Senju
9. Hanzo Salamander
10. Killer Bee
11. Jiraiya
12. Orochimaru
13. Kakashi Hatake
14. Kisame Hoshigaki
15. Raikage
16. Mizukage
17. Tsuchikage
18. Danzou
19. Sasuke Uchiha 
20. Naruto Uzumaki


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## MasterHentai (Oct 21, 2009)

Mizukage Hitsugaya 10 said:


> ...you included the Konoha Special Jounin, Shikamaru, and Kimimaro...but not the 5 Kage...



did you see the part where i said "<--------insert other kages' and such here"
its up there.....lol


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## Cronos (Oct 21, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Minato Namikaze
5.    Kisame Hoshigaki
6. Nageto/Pain
7. Killer Bee
8. Itachi Uchiha
9. Jairaya
10. Hiruzen Sarutobi
11. Raikage
12. Naruto Uzumaki
13. Sasuke Uchiha
14. Hanzou
15. Hidan
16. Tobirama Senju
17. Orochimaru
18. Kakuzu
19. Kakashi
20. Tsunade


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## Space Jam (Oct 21, 2009)

I think my list is pretty close, theres afew that havent fought enough

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Minato Namikaze
3. Hiruzen Sarutobi
4. Hashirama Senju
5. Madara Uchiha
7. Nagato
8. Raikage
9. Itachi Uchiha
10. Ōnoki (not sure)
11. Sasuke Uchiha
12. Naruto Uzamaki
13. Killer Bee
14. Hanzo
15. Orochimaru
16. Jiraiya
17. Kisame Hoshigaki (not sure)
18. Mizukage (not sure)
19. Kakashi
20. Kakuzu

I dont know where to put Danzo or Tobirama/whever his name is


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## Mongolian Chop Squad (Oct 21, 2009)

Mine's in no particular order...

- Sage of the Six Paths
- Minato Namikaze
- Pein
- Gaara
- Itachi Uchiha
- Madara Uchiha
- Sasuke Uchiha
- Raikage
- Killerbee
- Jiraiya
- Sasori
- Hashirama Senju
- Hanzou
- Hiruzen Sarutobi
- Sakumo Hatake (based on hype)
- Orochimaru
- Kakashi Hatake
- Tobirama Senju
- Tsunade
- Naruto Uzumaki

Honorable mentions: Mighto Gai, Kakuzu, Zetsu, Kisame, and Deidara.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 18, 2009)

ive deided to change my list, 
30. Hidan
29. Gai
28. Kimimaro
27. Deidara
26. Konan
25. Chiyo
24. Tsunade
23. Danzo
22. Gaara
21. Kakashi
20. Kakuzu
19. Sakumo
18. 5th Mizukage
17. Hanzo
16. Sasori
15. Orochimaru
14. Sasuke
13. Kisame
12. Raikage
11. Naruto
10. Killerbee
9. Itachi
8. Jiraiya
7. Tobirama
6. Nagato
5. Minato
4. Hashirama
3. Hiruzen
2. Madara
1. Rikudo


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 18, 2009)

You also just necro'd the thread.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 18, 2009)

i dunno what necro'd means


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## DarkRasengan (Nov 18, 2009)

If everywon just came back to life today with their strength at their prime before death.

1.Rikoudo
2.Nagato/madara(vote fight version is around 16 id assume)
3.Minato
4.Jiraiya
5.Naruto
6.Bee
7.Sarutobi prime
8.Itachi
9.Raikage
10.Tsuchikage
11.Kisame
12.Sasuke
13.Orochimaru
14.Sasori
15.Deidara
16.First hokage
17.Second hokage
18.Gaara
18.Kakashi/Kakuzu
19.Mizukage/Tsunade
20.Gai

It doesn't seam like vote madara or shodai had anything on todays top nins but bijuu control. And i highly doubt madara had his teleportation like he does now.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 18, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> i dunno what necro'd means



It means you put a post inside a thread that's several pages back to bring it back to the front. It's against the rules.


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## M?gas Strategos (Nov 18, 2009)

In no particular order:

Nagato (includes Pain)
Madara
Rikoudo Sennin
Kakuzu
Sasori
Deidara
Itachi
Kisame
Jiraiya
Kirabi
Raikage
Tsuchikage
Hashirama (Shodaime)
Hiruzen (Sandiame)
Hanzou
Naruto
Sasuke
Orochimaru
Gaara
Minato (Yondaime)


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## Turrin (Nov 18, 2009)

I'm just going to do a list based on what we have seen or has been Directly Stated. So My updated list is

1-Rikudo
2-Nagato
3-Killer Bee
4-Sage Mode Naruto
5-Garaa
6-Kisame
7-Jiraiya and Itachi(Healthy)
8-Sasori
9-Raikage
10-Sasuke
11-Orochimaru
12-Kakashi
13-Dedaria
14-Kazuku
15-Gai
16-Konan
17-Hiden
18-Juugo
19-Darui
20-Suigetsu


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## r e i g n (Nov 18, 2009)

1- Rikudo Sennin
skip a few
20 - old man from chunnin exam, just because i KNOW hes related to the farmer with shotgun!!


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## Goobtachi (Nov 18, 2009)

1.rikudou sennin bviously
2.Healthy itachi
3.Hashirama
4.Prime madara
5.Nagato
6.Prime hiruzen
7.Naruto and sasuke
8.Kirabi and raikage
9.Minato
10.Oro and jiraiya
11.Raikage
.......the others don't deserve to be in the same list as those


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## Bloo (Nov 18, 2009)

My list is no particular order:
-sage of six paths
-minato namikaze
-gaara
-hashirama senju
-itachi uchiha
-madara uchiha
-sasuke uchiha
-naruto uzumaki
-kakashi hatake
-killerbee
-raikage
-kisame hoshigake
-hizuzen sarutobi
-jiraiya
-orochimaru
-nagato/pain
-deidara
-kakuzu
-Gai
-Sasori


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## Kriminalistic (Nov 18, 2009)

my list would be:

1.rikudo- no question
2.Pain/Nagato- He was the strongest character made so far, even without the 6 path.
3.Hiruzen Sarutobi- He was referred as the strongest of all the kages, because he lived the longest.
4.Minato Namikaze- The youngest Hokage, Was supposed to be the strongest hokage, but died young. 
5.Shodai- The Mokuoton jutsu(however u spelled it), Makes all the tailed beast his bitch, Defeated prime Madara.
6. Prime Madara- eternal MS, 9 tails as allies or under him, Former leader of the Prime Uchiha clan.
7.Uzumaki Naruto- The host of the 9 tailed DF, Perfect Sage mode, Strongest determination in the manga. If he can host the 9 Tailed properly than he would be 2nd strongest in my list.
8.Raikage. Immune to genjutsu's, Terrifying speed and Power, and probably the fastest and strongest we have seen till now
9.Tsuchikage- at his prime, he is, till now, the fearsome leader of iwagakure, Can shatter people to bits.
10.Itachi-  Since Itachi has the MS, And Jiraiya Has SM, They both wouldn't  be equal. Itachi Sosanoo and amaterasu would pawn Jiraiya, what i guess, since the amatersu can only be stopped by its master and Jiraiya isnt that fast.
11.Jiraiya-One of the sanin. SM Pawn most of the charater below this one.
12.Killerbee- A complete host as we all know.
13.Sasuke- now has a complete MS. learning sosanoo and amaterasu, A prodigy in his childhood. Fought the five kages and loose, but still did some damages to the fearsome raikage.
14.Kisame- Chakra of a bijuu since he got a hold of samehada. 7 swordsman of the mist.
15.Kakuzu- He fought with the first and fortunately got owned, has five hearts that can be replaced. can be Short, middle, or long range fighter.
16.Orochimaru-One of the sannin. Very talented. Discovered immortality jutsu by exchanging body with victims.
17.Sasori- A master puppeter and the best in the world. He beat the 3 or 4 mizukage, i forgot who was said to be the strongest .

18.19.20???i dont care..

But i think this list is pretty much it.


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## Indestructible (Nov 19, 2009)

imo
1. Rikudou (creator)
2. Madara (bijuu user, light speed, unaffected by attacks, capable of using strongest jutsus in narutoverse)
3. Nagato (extremely resilient, chou shinra tensei/chibaku tensei)/Itachi in his prime (intelligence, susano + legendary artifacts)
4. 4th Hokage (extreme speed)
5. Killerbee (2nd strongest bijuu + full control, one of the best in physical ability)
6. Kisame (extreme chakra draining abilities, almost unlimited self healing, biggest chakra amount seen so far) 
7. Raikage (extremely high chakra levels, one of the best in physical ability)
8. Naruto (Kyuubi, HM, summons)
9. 1st Hokage in his prime (took on Madara, has control of kyuubi)
10. Sasuke (susano)
11. 3rd Hokage in his prime (hyped as being strongest hokage, but needs confirmation)
12. Tsuchikage (looked down on Sasuke)
13. Orochimaru (summons dead kage, resilient, extremely large jutsu repertoire)
14. Jiraiya (Sage mode, master of toad jutsu)
15. Sasori (manipulates 100 puppets at once, has all of strongest kazekage's strength and then some)
16. Kakuzu (extreme elemental versatility, fights well on all ranges)
17. Deidara (flies, sharingan genjutsu immunity, has some of the most powerful jutsu in the manga : C4, CO)
18. Hanzou (his strength is unknown, he might be eons ahead of the legit akatsuki members or he might just be average next to them, I'm completely unsure of his place on the list)
19. Kakashi (intelligence, jutsu versatility, kamui)
20. Tsunade (best medic, extreme strength, instant recovery she's on the list not for her fighting ability, but for the fact that she can heal a whole village at the same time)


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## Indestructible (Nov 19, 2009)

Sorry for double post, but I just took a look at some of the lists (the ones that matter... lol) and I'm surprised that a lot of them have Deidara on them. I thought he was severely underrated, but looks like that isn't the case.
I'm glad that this character gets the praise he deserves.


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## Redjenny (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm just gonna write people who we've seen in the manga I cba to speculate on the others atm 

1. Nagato
2. Itachi/Jiraiya
3. Naruto (with sage mode prepared and the ability to use his kyuubi as a last ditch hes a monster who takes an age to kill)
4. Raikage (The guy is totally gonna put a huge axe on his severed arm! O.O)
5. Sasori
6. Killerbee
7. Orochimaru (Non sick)
8. Sasuke
9. Kisame
10. Kakuzu
11. Deidara
12. Gaara
13. Kakashi/Gai Sensei
14. Gets too vague, I cant say.


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## DarkRasengan (Nov 19, 2009)

Illusory said:


> 1. God Rikoudou
> _Made the moon, Created Ninjutsu, Contained the Jyubi_
> 2. King Hashirama
> _Army of Bijuu, Awesome Genjutsu, Ungodly Mokuton_
> ...



Stop trying to subliminally show that itachi and minato are supposed to be in the same tier when they arent IN EVERY GOD DAMN POST my god this thread didnt even ask for that man give it up.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 19, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Stop trying to subliminally show that itachi and minato are supposed to be in the same tier when they arent IN EVERY GOD DAMN POST my god this thread didnt even ask for that man give it up.



This thread asked for my ranking, I supplied it as well as my reasoning. If it upsets you, I can spoiler tag it. The simple fact is that, yes, Itachi is in Minato's tier and has been implied to be from the moment we understood that Sasuke and Naruto were each primary rivals and that their benchmarks were Itachi and Minato, respectively. The fact that he put up the display that he did while ill, blind, and not even attempting to injure Sasuke is testament to that fact as well as Madara's and Zetsu's adulation - something Minato has yet to receive from the man who was responsible for his death.


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## Redjenny (Nov 19, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Stop trying to subliminally show that itachi and minato are supposed to be in the same tier when they arent IN EVERY GOD DAMN POST my god this thread didnt even ask for that man give it up.



How about you stop whining and acting all upset everytime someone favors an Uchicha over your favorite char. 

And for the record his list was good, although I daresay Jiraiya is too low on it :amazed


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## Sadgoob (Nov 19, 2009)

Redjenny said:


> How about you stop whining and acting all upset everytime someone favors an Uchicha over your favorite char. And for the record his list was good, although I daresay Jiraiya is too low on it



I would put him above Orochimaru, but Edo Tensei puts that guy over the top as well as his Hydra Form & Manda. The only reasons Minato or Itachi are ahead of him is because they each have amazing sealing techniques and summons that could potentially limit the threat. I think Naruto and Sasuke could beat them if they played very, very smart. Each of them has bouts of retardation and genius though where as the Sanin are more constant and just below tactical genius IMHO.


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## DarkRasengan (Nov 19, 2009)

Illusory said:


> This thread asked for my ranking, I supplied it as well as my reasoning. If it upsets you, I can spoiler tag it. The simple fact is that, yes, Itachi is in Minato's tier and has been implied to be from the moment we understood that Sasuke and Naruto were each primary rivals and that their benchmarks were Itachi and Minato, respectively. The fact that he put up the display that he did while ill, blind, and not even attempting to injure Sasuke is testament to that fact as well as Madara's and Zetsu's adulation - something Minato has yet to receive from the man who was responsible for his death.



Their benchmarks go
Kakashi, itachi,
and minato kakashi jiraiya.
Orochimaru was never a benchmark for sasuke, he only used him to get stronger for itachi. While jiraiya was a benchmark for naruto.
SM=MS
Itachi has shown no tactical feats at all. Going easy on somewon isnt tactical.


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## Redjenny (Nov 19, 2009)

I should probably have put Orochimaru slightly higher, since when I think about I dont see how anyone without extremely strong abilities could actually kill him was he healthy, he lacks in the offensive department though, where Jiraiya excells.

Tbh I would also say that part 2 Naruto has shown great tactical prowess whereas Sasuke has done naught but rush in like an idiot, he did display some skill vs Deidara but tbh it was mainly sharingan hax and didnt involve much thinking.

The tactics Naruto deviced versus Kakuzu were good, and his crazy hermit mode bunshin and summons working together with rasengans here and there move that he pulled vs pain was extremely complicated and performed perfectly. Which is one of the reasons I put him so high 

And Orochimaru while definitely smart, tends to be too arrogant and offensive, seeing as hes lost all his battles to overconfidence, although the sword of totsuka was just lame.

Jiraiya on the other hand hasnt performed as advanced comboes as Naruto but as shown in his fight with Pain he fights in calm analyzing style, and has VERY powerful offensive ninjutsu. With hermit mode activated I put him Above Oro, and on equal grounds with Itachi and probably Minato aswell although Im merely speculating about him.

PS, Saying Itachi has no tactical feats at all is just flamebait man, please


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## Big Mom (Nov 19, 2009)

1. That sage dude
2. hiruzen sarutobi
3. madara
4. onoki(prime/might which to 3rd though) 
5. second
6. minato
7. pein/nagato
8. jiraya
9. itachi
10. orochimaru
11. kisame
12. sasori
13. sasuke
14. deidara
15. tsunade
16. kabuto
17. kakashi
18. gai
19. kakuzu
20. hidan


the other kages(when they fully demonstrate their power) will make the list I am sure.

EDIT: the reason i think Onoki should be higher is becuase he fought madara and he looks in good shape now so he obviously wasn't messed up all that much. It also must have been when madara was in his prime before his fight with hashirama because after the fight, he went into hidding.


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## Ahrreloco (Nov 21, 2009)

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Nagato/Pain
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Hashirama Senju
5. Minato Namikaze
6. Naruto Uzumaki
7. Sasuke Uchiha
8. Tobirama Senju
9. Jiraiya
10. Raikage
11. Tsuchikage
12. Kisame
13. Orochimaru
14. Itachi
15. Killer Bee
16. Sasori
17. Kakuzu
18. Mizukage
19. Kakashi Hatake
20. Gaara


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## ytv1 (Nov 21, 2009)

1. Rikudou
2,3,4. Minato/Pain/Sarutobi (no order)
5. Hashirama
6. Madara
7. Hanzou
8. Itachi
9,10. Jiraiya/Orochimaru/Sasori

Not included in Top 10 but close: Naruto,Sasuke,Kakuzu,Raikage,Killer Bee,Kisame


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## cows are fat (Nov 21, 2009)

1. Rikudo
2. Madara or Hashirama
3. Madara or Hashirama
4. Pain
5. Hiruzen
6. Itachi
7. Minato

no order: 

8. Orochimaru
9. Raikage
10. Tsuchikage


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## Indestructible (Nov 22, 2009)

> 5. Hiruzen
> 6. Itachi
> 7. Minato



First time I see an opinion like this. I say it should be Itachi, Minato, then Hiruzen, but most people say Minato, Itachi, Hiruzen.
I find your opinion interesting, but I think you chose this lineup because of the time Iruka said 3rd was the strongest Hokage ever. I think this was referring to him being stronger than the first two Hokage, I don't think the fourth was being included.


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## Big Mom (Nov 22, 2009)

Ahrreloco said:


> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> 2. Nagato/Pain
> 3. Madara Uchiha
> 4. Hashirama Senju
> ...




Hiruzen could destroy most people on that list.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 22, 2009)

1 - Juubi host Rikodou sennin
2 - Juubi
3 - Rikodou Sennin
4 - Hashirama
5 - Madara
6 - Healthy Itachi
7 - Pain
8 - Itachi 
9 - Raikage
10 - Kirabi

Here is top 10 for ya


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## cows are fat (Nov 22, 2009)

Indestructible said:


> First time I see an opinion like this. I say it should be Itachi, Minato, then Hiruzen, but most people say Minato, Itachi, Hiruzen.
> I find your opinion interesting, but I think you chose this lineup because of the time Iruka said 3rd was the strongest Hokage ever. I think this was referring to him being stronger than the first two Hokage, I don't think the fourth was being included.



that is why i picked him to be above minato. i dont see why irukas statement would have excluded minato. im just following what the characters say. but hearing all the shit about shodai beating madara, it seems that shodai is stronger than hiruzen. so now i dont even know what to think lol.


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## emROARS (Nov 22, 2009)

Rikodou sennin
Harashima / Hiruzen / Minato / Madara
Harashima / Hiruzen / Minato / Madara
Harashima / Hiruzen / Minato / Madara
Harashima / Hiruzen / Minato / Madara
Tobirama
Nagato
Jiraiya / Itachi
Jiraiya / Itachi
Naruto  / Sasuke
Naruto  / Sasuke
Orochimaru / Hanzou
Orochimaru / Hanzou
Sakumo
Raikage / Kisame / Killer Bee
Raikage / Kisame / Killer Bee
Raikage / Kisame / Killer Bee
Sasori / Kakashi
Sasori / Kakashi
Deidara

So many spot's I couldn't choose @_@


----------



## Final Jutsu (Nov 22, 2009)

Rikkudou
Shodai
Madara
Minato/Nagato


----------



## Jir667 (Nov 23, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> 1. That sage dude
> 2. hiruzen sarutobi
> 3. madara
> 4. onoki(prime/might which to 3rd though)
> ...



wheres the first?
you put the second up there but no the first seriously?

madara would beat the 3rd.
pain is above minato

why is tsunade on the list?
and why is kakashi below kabuto?

and kakuzu so low?
he fought the first and did just fine.
gai aint above kakuzu either
gai is above kabuto
and sage dude is rikudo 
i like how you like insult the strongest ninja but wank out hiruzen


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## kokodeshide (Nov 23, 2009)

1. Rikudou
2. Pain
3. Madara/Hashirama
4. Madara/Hashirama
5. Itachi
6. Kisame
7. Kirabi
8. Raikage
9. Naruto
10. Sasuke



there are to many factors to list anymore


----------



## Angoobo (Nov 23, 2009)

1.Rikudou Sennin/Healthy Nagato
3.Minato Namikaze
4.Hashirama Senju/Hiruzen Sarutobi
6.SM Naruto Uzumaki/
7.HM Jiraiya/Healthy Itachi/MS Sasuke


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## Viciousness (Nov 23, 2009)

Your second list is alot better than your first, but what have Danzo and Juugo done to deserve being on there? Youve got guys like Sasori, Deidara, Yondaime Kazekage, White Fang etc. who would be more deserving..and aint no way Kimimaro would beat Hanzou, who Jiraiya himself thought was unbeatable alone. I would take Kimimaro off as well and replace him with the others.


----------



## Xion (Nov 23, 2009)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 - Juubi host Rikodou sennin
> 2 - Juubi
> 3 - Rikodou Sennin
> 4 - Hashirama
> ...



I don't recall a healthy Itachi. 

Healthy Nagato goes above him though I'm sure.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 23, 2009)

oh this thread has been brought back ok my fully updated top 20
1) Rikudo
2) Shodai
3) Madara
4) Hiruzen
5) Nagato
6) Minato
7) Itachi
8) Jiraiya
9) Nidaime
10) Naruto
11) Raikage
12) Killerbee
13) Sasuke
14) Kisame
15) Orochimaru
16) Onoki
17) Sasori
18) Hanzo
19) Mizukage
20) Sakumo

Notable mentions:

21) Kakuzu
22) Kakashi
23) Gaara
24) Danzo
25) Tsunade


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 23, 2009)

Jir667 said:


> wheres the first?
> you put the second up there but no the first seriously?
> 
> madara would beat the 3rd.
> ...



Dude, this is an opinion list so back off. 

I just forgot to add the first, no biggy.

Onoki then Shodai.

What has Madara done that can compare to Hiruzen. Yeah, nothing.

Minato was a fast and great Hokage. I don't see how Pein can hit him.

Tsunade was a skilled ninja. She was physically strong as well as menatlly.

Kabuto is smarter than Kakashi. He is skilled in Medical jutsu as well and was able to out manover the entire Team 7(naruto's team. I thinks that is there team number).

I have yet to see Kakuzu fight the first so no. Kakuzu seemed weak in his fight with NAruto and gang

gai seems that since he is a taijutsu fighter that he can take the hearts out faster. 

and jeez, I didn't think that forgeting the sage's name was that big of a deal. 

BTW, everything you said was opinion and had nothing to back it up or support it.

EDIT: @ Uchiha Itachi 92: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



how come Kisame is below killer bee yet he so creamed him in a fight?


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 23, 2009)

to hiruzen, its sort of power scaling, like kisame is a perfect match up against killerbee with samehada, whereas someone like sasuke with genjutsu spam could probably take kisame and killerbee with hachibi could beat the sauce (sasuke) IMO
as a result, whilst i did obviously take fights into account, i felt that you had to consider the variables and advantages one had in a fight, and just generally, their skill, in nin, tai and gen, and their experience


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 23, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> to hiruzen, its sort of power scaling, like kisame is a perfect match up against killerbee with samehada, whereas someone like sasuke with genjutsu spam could probably take kisame and killerbee with hachibi could beat the sauce (sasuke) IMO
> as a result, whilst i did obviously take fights into account, i felt that you had to consider the variables and advantages one had in a fight, and just generally, their skill, in nin, tai and gen, and their experience



Sasuke never uses genjutsu right away especially on an Akatsuki member. He will try to sword fight him or ninjutsu rape him. Thats where KIsame rapes him hard. And sucks up his chakra. And by using Amaretsu so many times, plus the chakra sucking, he will loose chakra very fast. Plus, there is no genjutsu Sasuke has that can OHKO Kisame. Thats the only way to beat him. Otherwise, Kisame revives himself with the Samehada's chakra.


----------



## Wampa (Nov 23, 2009)

sarutobi split chakra 3 times. each equal chakra?
1st clone= seals 1st hokage
2cd clone= seals 2cd hokage
3rd real sarutobi=fails to seal oro

itachi failed to kill oro even tho itachi won. must mean oro is prty strong considering itachi prob coulda killed sasuke.

 dat sword thing could prob one shot anyone tho.....possibly

lookin at stat book itachi has total of 35.5
sarutobi 34
oro is 35

oro only .5 off kinda intereasting


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 23, 2009)

Wampa said:


> sarutobi split chakra 3 times. each equal chakra?
> 1st clone= seals 1st hokage
> 2cd clone= seals 2cd hokage
> 3rd real sarutobi=fails to seal oro
> ...




Although the stat book has Old Sarutobi's stats not Prime Saruotobi's.


----------



## Jir667 (Nov 24, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Dude, this is an opinion list so back off.
> 
> I just forgot to add the first, no biggy.
> 
> ...




madara fought the first hokage many times.the first stated to be the strongest hokage,also stated he could beat all 5 of the current kages with no problem. stated by the tsuchikage

pain fought sage naruto hand to hand. just fine.reacted to him. so on, the 4th has one move that could even pose a threat. but other than that he couldnt do anything to pain. pain is shown to be one of the strongest ninja's period. 

tsunade is very weak she's not very fast. just physically strong. plenty of ninja could beat her
including kakashi

kabuto is smart yes battle smart not as smart as kakashi.
when did kabuto do that?
if during the chunnin exames he had prep. 

and yes kakuzu fought the first stated in the manga and in the databook so yes he has.

he is taijustu master but kakashi is just about equal speed and would of lost that fight.
gai highly doubting he could take them all out and also he's not super smart.

and yes my opinion but everything i said was basically legit.

when i said things about ninja's like kakuzu fighting the first. legit

also onoki couldnt beat shodai. he states madara could beat him and the 4 other kages, 
shodai fought madara equally.
so shodai could more than likely beat all 5 kages.
hiruzen couldnt not fast enough strong enough so on


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 24, 2009)

Jir667 said:


> madara fought the first hokage many times.the first stated to be the strongest hokage,also stated he could beat all 5 of the current kages with no problem. stated by the tsuchikage
> 
> pain fought sage naruto hand to hand. just fine.reacted to him. so on, the 4th has one move that could even pose a threat. but other than that he couldnt do anything to pain. pain is shown to be one of the strongest ninja's period.
> 
> ...



although i agree with most of your points, the third was stated to be the strongest hokage konoha ever had (although i cant see him beating shodai or madara, but then again, we dont know the full scale of his abilities, he was named the god of shinobi so he must be damn strong)

also, can you give me a link to where tsuchi says that about the first


----------



## Wampa (Nov 24, 2009)

dat monkey enma, after the third was fighting all three, said he was miserable compared to his prime.

also third split chakra three time....
his two clones had enough chakra to pull out first and second.

his real one which had atleast as much chakra as the shadow clones couldnt pull out oro...



either first and second spended a lot more chakra then oro, or oro has a lot more chakra then the first and second.

also monkey enma said sarutobi could have killed oro but let him go.. compared to itachi failing to kill oro....

sarutobi liked oro so he let him go... compared to itachi not really having reason to let him live....   

 therefor sarutobi>itachi.....possibly....atleast in the art of fighting oro..... most likely since sarutobi knows a lot more about oro then itachi would know about oro....

even tho if sarutobi knew everything he woulda known oro was bad from start... so he didnt know that much more then itachi......but still enough.. itachi was his partner tho, must have known a little bit....probly a lot.....




tldr.....reliable source enma says sarutobi was miserable compared to his prime...after holding off oro,1st,2cd

sarutobi out feated itachi in fighting orochimaru. 
sarutobi faught oro twice
1. first time could have killed, enma said he let him go
2. defeated 3 of his reanimation jutsu, took away arm use -->possibly cripple him rest of the season

itachi faught oro twice
1. did nothing but made oro run, could not kill
2.sealed him away with that sword that poked him...

seems sarutobi is up 1 fight.... also itachi was prime in both fights. sarutobi probly wasnt 100% in either.


----------



## Wampa (Nov 24, 2009)

i dont rly understand ur  bottom of post thing jir667....I think scientist have to think the opposite of that or they're not scientists....
maybe it should say


possibly not scientists live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. 


just a suggestion...hard to lump all people into 1 thing...idk i might be wrong...


----------



## South of Hell (Nov 24, 2009)

All of the top 20 have been mentioned so I won't do it again.

But special mention goes out to Deidara. He may not be in the top 20, but he could kill any of the characters (that didn't have instant teleportation jutsus etc) with that final attack of his.... And along with the city they are currently residing in....


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 24, 2009)

South of Hell said:


> All of the top 20 have been mentioned so I won't do it again.
> 
> But special mention goes out to Deidara. He may not be in the top 20, but he could kill any of the characters (that didn't have instant teleportation jutsus etc) with that final attack of his.... And along with the city they are currently residing in....



seriously debatable
kakashi could survive, kamui
sasuke and itachi susanoo
arguably kakuzu
killerbee and naruto i reckon could survive, chakra shield shown to be near inpenetrable
pain quite simply would survive, animal path 
raikage could speed blitz away
orochi could use those gates he used to block KN4 ball
jiraiya could get inside a toad
shodai could probs block with a huge mokuton
madara and minato = obvious
hiruzen could use enma to transform into some inpenetrable defence imo


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## cry77 (Nov 24, 2009)

no sage of six paths


1.prime hiruzen
2.hashimaru
3.madara
4.pain
5.minato
6.raikage
7.killerbee.
8.jiaraiya.
9itachi
10.sasori
11.kakuzu
12.kisame
13.deidara
14.hidan
15.orochimaru
16.zetsu
17.third kazekage
18.kakashi 
19.gai
20.naruto


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Nov 24, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> seriously debatable
> kakashi could survive, kamui
> sasuke and itachi susanoo
> arguably kakuzu
> ...



Kakashi can't Kamui a attack of that scale. And it comes from all sides.

Doton Domu isn't going to protect him from a 10KM C0 attack.

Raikage isn't going to run 10KM in a instant.

Orochi's Rashomon Gates aren't going to work, they were blasted open by KN4's death ball and dented by Kiba's attack. This attack is much more powerful and comes from all sides.

Shodai isn't blocking C0 with Wood. No matter what kind of Wood it is.

Minato isn't obvious, he needs to have placed a seal on something prior to use Hirashin.

And Hizuren's Enma's defense has gaps. Quite literally.

Directed @ post above. 

I have a question. Why are Zetsu and Hidan on there when there are plenty of much stronger people than them? Zetsu barely has any feats and is more of a support character and Hidan is only truly lethal without prior knowledge.


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## Wampa (Nov 24, 2009)

hmmmmm who was kage at that time? raikage.... might be interesting to know...


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## Big Mom (Nov 24, 2009)

Top 6:

1) prime sage
2) Prime Hiruzen
3) Prime Onoki
4) prime hashirama
5) prime Madara
6) prime minato


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## Jir667 (Nov 25, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> although i agree with most of your points, the third was stated to be the strongest hokage konoha ever had (although i cant see him beating shodai or madara, but then again, we dont know the full scale of his abilities, he was named the god of shinobi so he must be damn strong)
> 
> also, can you give me a link to where tsuchi says that about the first



no i said tsuchi said that about madara,
he said madara could kill them all

and madara and shodai fought head to head and even won
there for shodai could beat them


and shodai was stated to be the strongest
hiruzen was stated to be the god of shinobi


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## Jir667 (Nov 25, 2009)

Wampa said:


> i dont rly understand ur  bottom of post thing jir667....I think scientist have to think the opposite of that or they're not scientists....
> maybe it should say
> 
> 
> ...



my sig is something itachi said.
its one of his quotes thats why its there

i didnt make it up lol


----------



## kokodeshide (Nov 25, 2009)

South of Hell said:


> All of the top 20 have been mentioned so I won't do it again.
> 
> But special mention goes out to Deidara. He may not be in the top 20, but he could kill any of the characters (that didn't have instant teleportation jutsus etc) with that final attack of his.... And along with the city they are currently residing in....



So your saying he could kill anyone who couldnt defend against him yea thats obvious lol.

Dont get me wrong deidara was great but he died to soon to become more powerful.


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## Jir667 (Nov 25, 2009)

Wampa said:


> dat monkey enma, after the third was fighting all three, said he was miserable compared to his prime.
> 
> also third split chakra three time....
> his two clones had enough chakra to pull out first and second.
> ...




your really saying that? really? lol

itachi just let him go.
he did one move and basically beat him.
thats it oro ran away itachi had no reason to chase him.

second itachi killed oro with that slash it cut his body in half and oro died.

he beat oro with out problems twice.

so learn your facts please!!!

also yes he was the strongest of the kage's 
kages not hokages
just kage's

tshuchi kage said madara do anything he wants thats how strong he was.

shodai beat madara or fought him to a stand still. plenty of times.

enma says stuff awesome yes he could of beaten oro impressive. but itachi did it easy.

and please dont make up shit.
oro was sasori's partner not itachi


and also ima use your lodgic k?

oro beat hiruzen

itachi beat oro twice

there for itachi is stronger than oro and the 3rd
sasuke beat itachi
kirabi and raikage beat sasuke
kisame basically beat kirabi
so all them are stronger than hiruzen.
hmm cool.
you just made the person you said was the strongest 7th


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## Eternity (Nov 25, 2009)

My top 5:

1. Myself 
2. My left hand
3. My right hand
4. My left leg
5. My right leg


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## Angoobo (Nov 25, 2009)

Tengoku said:


> My top 5:
> 
> 1. Myself
> 2. My left hand
> ...



Wooooow...



*Spoiler*: __ 



Are you A TROLL


----------



## Agony (Nov 25, 2009)

top 20?not in order:

naruto
sasuke
raikage
killerbee
itachi
madara
minato
nagato
rikudou
sasori
deidara
kisame
jiraiya
orochimaru
kakuzu
kakashi
tsuchikage
hanzou
sandaime.


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## onedesire13 (Nov 29, 2009)

(I'm not including kages here)

1.Madara
2.Pein
3.Itachi
4.Killer Bee
5.Kisame
6.Sasuke
7.Sasori
8.Naruto
9.Kakuzu
10.Kakashi

Way overdue side note:- Sakura should die XD


----------



## Ecydysis (Nov 29, 2009)

1. Rikodou
2. Hashirama
3. [Prime] Madara
4. Negato
5. Orochimaru [Edo Tensei]
6. Minato
7. [Healthy] Itachi
8. Naruto
9. Jiraiya
10. Killerbee
11. Sasuke
12. [Prime] Sarutobi
13. Kakashi [Kamui]
14. Sasori
15. Kisame
16. Raikage
17. Gaara
18. Deidara
19. Mizukage
20. Kakuzu


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 29, 2009)

Wow, Prime Sarutobi was said to be the strongest of the five kages, yet he is 12 on your list Ecydysis and he is below Sasuke.... wow.


----------



## Ecydysis (Nov 29, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Wow, Prime Sarutobi was said to be the strongest of the five kages, yet he is 12 on your list Ecydysis and he is below Sasuke.... wow.



I don't need to a genius like Orochimaru to understand that you are a Sarutobi fan. If you didn't notice, I do have him above the Five Kages. the Raikage, Tsuchikage, Mizukage, and the Kazekage all below him. Additionally, I hope you understand that it was _Iruka_ who said that about Sarutobi. Not Madara, not Jiraiya, not Zetsu. Iruka, someone who saw the Saindaime Hokage as a father. Itachi gave Sasuke his techniques and Sasuke already has Ninjutsu, such as Kirin and Chidori variants, that puts anything the Saindaime has to shame. Furthermore, it may have been thought by some that Sarutobi in his prime was stronger than any individual Kage, but _Madara_ thought that Sasuke could _capture_ all of the Kages at once. In terms of hype and feats: Hiruzen loses. Badly.


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 29, 2009)

Lmao and I know you are an orochimaru fan. Yes, and how did Madara's judgement turn out/ Sasuke couldn't handle one. In terms of hype, Hiruzen wins and feats he still wins.


----------



## Ecydysis (Nov 29, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Lmao and I know you are an orochimaru fan. Yes, and how did Madara's judgement turn out/ Sasuke couldn't handle one. In terms of hype, Hiruzen wins and feats he still wins.



I respectfully disagree. In terms of feats: Sasuke drops Sarutobi like he did Shi almost instantly. No Mangyekou is needed. In terms of hype, Madara, the final villain saying that Sasuke could capture all Five Kages surpasses Kabuto, who was on level with Naruto in the Chuunin Exams, saying that Sarutobi was stronger than the other Five Kages. Both are unsubstantiated as Sasuke arguably lost to the Raikage, who was admittedly well prepared with knowledge and counters to his techniques, and Sarutobi would obviously lose as well.


----------



## South of Hell (Nov 29, 2009)

kokodeshide said:


> So your saying he could kill anyone who couldnt defend against him yea thats obvious lol.
> 
> Dont get me wrong deidara was great but he died to soon to become more powerful.



Well how do you see anyone that can't defend against C0 surviving being Vaporized?

The only people I can see surviving that are the Uchihas with Susanoo hax, and Minato who already had a preplaced seal for Hirashin.

The Jinchuurikiu would have been ripped to shreds by the time they try to release their Biju to protect them.

And anyone running ten kilometers in under 15 seconds (most amount of time I see C0 transpiring in)? I don't think so.


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 29, 2009)

Ecydysis said:


> I respectfully disagree. In terms of feats: Sasuke drops Sarutobi like he did Shi almost instantly. No Mangyekou is needed. In terms of hype, Madara, the final villain saying that Sasuke could capture all Five Kages surpasses Kabuto, who was on level with Naruto in the Chuunin Exams, saying that Sarutobi was stronger than the other Five Kages. Both are unsubstantiated as Sasuke arguably lost to the Raikage, who was admittedly well prepared with knowledge and counters to his techniques, and Sarutobi would obviously lose as well.




Yes, but again, Madara was utterly wrong with that statement. Madara had to save Sasuke from being turned to dust mind you. And also, Srautobi battle two hokages and a Sannin who had full prep while Sarutobi had none.


----------



## Ecydysis (Nov 29, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Yes, but again, Madara was utterly wrong with that statement. Madara had to save Sasuke from being turned to dust mind you. And also, Srautobi battle two hokages and a Sannin who had full prep while Sarutobi had none.



Yet the Sanin and two Hokages were merely  with him.


----------



## Big Mom (Nov 29, 2009)

Still, for people toying with him, they sure were putting up a fight.


----------



## Ecydysis (Nov 29, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Still, for people toying with him, they sure were putting up a fight.



Considering that while trapped in that darkness and merely being punched Shodai could have easily  him, Orochimaru could have easily used his  to fatally wound him, etc I don't think it can really be called "a fight." It was a merciless beating of three incredibly powerful opponents who weren't even beginning to show their power until he performed a suicidal Ninjutsu that they were completely unaware of and took them out at the cost of his own life.


----------



## Jir667 (Nov 30, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Still, for people toying with him, they sure were putting up a fight.



K let me fix some things.
1. hiruzen is not that great he was a good ninja but still not the best ever,
 2. those puppets you have no way to prove how strong they were, it said it puts there soul into a body k?
well it could be that the body used is how strong they are just they get there own moves if thats the case its 2 genin vs's a kage not impressive.
it could be when they were last alive so death beds again not impressive two nearly dead people fighting. it could have to do with the ammount of chakra the user of the jutsu uses again could be alot of a little. also its not them those kages were not themselves oro was controling them so not that impressive of a feat still. so as it stands right not thats not a great feat. impressive but not great.

3. he couldnt beat raikage period. off of feats he has no chance. raikage is two fast its a total blitz he'd lose like it was nothing.

4. sasuke is faster than him also has genjutsu rape, sasuke beats hiruzen.

5. you can't use hype. period thats the end of that! 

6.  off of feats it'd go shodai then hiruzen then minato 
why?
shodai fought madara head to head many many times. 
hiruzen could barely beat oro in his prime elder lost to him. itachi beat oro twice with ease.
madara is the strongest uchiha, minato can't beat him stated by minato.
Im willing to bet itachi can beat minato.
so Shodai=Madara Madara> Minato=Itachi > oro=hiruzen


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## Gonhar (Nov 30, 2009)

Sarutobi stepped down to Minato, so that must mean that 12 or more years before Sarutobi thought Minato had surpassed him, not sure is Sarutobi would have been prime that far back or not but im sure he would have been a lot stronger than he was at the fight with Orochumaru, so Minato is probably stronger since Sarutobi's stepped down for him, and the strongest in the village is supposed to be the hokage.


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## Big Mom (Nov 30, 2009)

Gonhar: Which isn't true since kyuubi Naruto could kill Tsunade.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Nov 30, 2009)

the sad fact is that both orochi and hiruzen are dead (orochimaru could come back through kabuto, i know) and will be surpassed by naruto and sasuke
top 20:
1) Rikudo
2) Shodai
3) Madara (prime)
4) Hiruzen (prime)
5) Nagato
6) Minato
7) Itachi (Healthy)
8) Jiraiya
9) Nidaime
10) Naruto
11) Raikage
12) Killerbee
13) Sasuke
14) Kisame
15) Orochimaru
16) Onoki
17) Sasori
18) Hanzo
19) Mizukage
20) Sakumo

Note: The descendents of rikudo would be 2) and 3) but i didnt include them
Izuna would most likely be top 10 and shisui would make the list too


----------



## Maerala (Nov 30, 2009)

*There's too many dead people, so I'll only count those that are alive.*

1. Raikage
2. Killer Bee
3. Naruto
4. Sasuke
5. Tsuchikage
6. Gaara
7. Tsunade
8. Mizukage
9. Danzou
10. Zetsu

*The other ten are not in order:*

11. Madara
12. Kakashi
13. Gai
14. Choujuro
15. Ao
16. Darui
17. Hiashi
18. Shikaku
19. Kurenai
20. Shibi


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## jdbzkh (Nov 30, 2009)

Rikudou
Madara
Shodai
Minato
Nagato
Naruto
Sasuke
Killer Bee
Jiraiya
Itachi
Raikage
Sarutobi
Hanzou
Orochimaru
Kakuzu
Sasori
Deidara
Kakashi
Kabuto
Kisame


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## Jir667 (Dec 1, 2009)

Gonhar said:


> Sarutobi stepped down to Minato, so that must mean that 12 or more years before Sarutobi thought Minato had surpassed him, not sure is Sarutobi would have been prime that far back or not but im sure he would have been a lot stronger than he was at the fight with Orochumaru, so Minato is probably stronger since Sarutobi's stepped down for him, and the strongest in the village is supposed to be the hokage.



Well thats wrong, cause oro was gonna be hokage, but hiruzen knew he was evil so he gave it to minato, there for oro is stronger than minato and since back then hiruzen "could of beaten oro"  hiruzen is stronger than minato and oro


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## Ryugaisan (Dec 4, 2009)

1. Rikudo
2. Hashirama
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Prime Hiruzen
5. Nagato/Pain
6. Minato
7. Itachi Uchiha
8. Tobirama
9. Prime Onoki
10. Jiraiya
11. Killer Bee
12. Naruto
13. Raikage
14. Orochimaru
15. Sasori
16. Sasuke Uchiha
17. Hanzou
18. Kisame
19. Sakumo
20. Danzo


----------



## stevensr123 (Dec 5, 2009)

1)Rikudou Sannin
2)Hashirama Senju
3)Madara Uchiha
4)Nagato
5)Hiruzen Sarutobi
6)Itachi Uchiha
7)Minato Namikaze
8)Jiraiya
9)Orochimaru
10)Killer bee
11) Kakashi Hatake
12)Raikage
13)Sasuke Uchiha
14)Sasori
15)Deidara
16)Kisame
17)Mizukage
18)Naruto
19)Yamato
20)Kakuzu


----------



## mac101 (Dec 5, 2009)

*GAARA*

He is underestimated


----------



## NSdominance (Dec 5, 2009)

1) Rikudou Sennin
2) Uchiha Madara
3) Pein
4) Uchiha Itachi
5) Senju Hashirama
6) Namikaze Minato
7) Sasori
8) Sarutobi Hiruzen
9) Raikage
10) Hatake Kakashi
11) Uchiha Sasuke
12) Uzumaki Naruto 
13) Gaara
14) Orochimaru
15) Jiraiya
16) Deidara
17) Hoshigaki Kisame
18) Senju Tobirama
19) Kakuzu
20) Gai


----------



## Neelon (Dec 5, 2009)

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime).
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Nagato.
5. Uchiha Madara (prime)
6. Minato Namikaze
7. Hanzo/Onoki (prime).
8. Danzou (prime).
9. Jiraiya/Killer bee
10. Jiraiya/Killer bee.
11. Itachi (healthy)/ Naruto / Terumi Mei.
12. Raikage.
13. Orochimaru.
14. Kisame.
15. Nidaime.
16. Sasuke.
17. Sasori/kakuzu.
18. Deidara.
19. Kabuto/Kakashi.
20. Tsunade.


----------



## Green Poncho (Dec 5, 2009)

In no particular order:
-Uchiha Itachi
-Hoshigaki Kisame
-Deidara
-Pain
-Kakuza
-Killer Bee
-Fourth Raikage (E)
-Uchiha Sasuke
-Uzumaki Naruto
-Jiraiya
-Fifth Mizukage (Terumii Mei)
-Fifth Kazekage (Gaara)
-Orochimaru


----------



## Big Mom (Dec 5, 2009)

Neelon said:


> 1. Rikudo Sennin
> 2. Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime).
> 3. Hashirama Senju
> 4. Nagato.
> ...



All but Onoki is fine.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 5, 2009)

Everyone loves Sarutobi


----------



## Trivub (Dec 5, 2009)

NarutoWinsByDefault said:


> Is this list in character, cause seriously Kakashi could MS some of these guys heads off from a tree if he just wanted too... He didnt do it to Pain for unknown reasons, he was to weak at the end of the battle to do it...
> 
> With what we have seen from Oro im pretty sure Kakashi could MS him aswell.



yeah but Aoba whilde hiding in a tree, could also throw a kunai in Minato's head


----------



## ? (Dec 5, 2009)

this is the most accurate list and if you don't agree your wrong 
1.rikudo sennin
2.hashirama
3.madara
4.nagato
5.SM naruto with toad army
6.minato/itachi
7.killer bee
8.raikage
9.hanzo/prime sarutobi
10.jiraya/orochimaru
11.sasuke/gaara- once he masters susanoo, he'll move to naruto's level.
12.sasori
13.tsunade
14.deidara/kisame
15.kakauzu
16.kakashi
17.hidan
18.gai
19.konan
20.AO


----------



## Soul (Dec 5, 2009)

Inu said:


> this is the most accurate list and if you don't agree your wrong
> 1.rikudo sennin
> 2.hashirama
> 3.madara
> ...



So... Gaara is weaker than Tsunade, Konan, Hidan and Gai or am I wrong?
And why is Tsunade above Kakuzu?


----------



## ? (Dec 5, 2009)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So... Gaara is weaker than Tsunade, Konan, Hidan and Gai or am I wrong?
> And why is Tsunade above Kakuzu?


lol i totally forgot about gaara.

and tsunade is above kakuzu by hype. remember she's yet to go all out.


----------



## Rampage (Dec 5, 2009)

Inu said:


> *this is the most accurate list and if you don't agree your wrong *1.rikudo sennin
> 2.hashirama
> 3.madara
> 4.nagato
> ...



 this list is inaccurate sorry


----------



## ? (Dec 5, 2009)

uzumaki lee said:


> this list is inaccurate sorry


 where did i go wrong?


----------



## Rampage (Dec 5, 2009)

Inu said:


> where did i go wrong?





i would put Gai above Kakashi and Hidan, Tsunade would be lower than Kakuzu aswell as Gai and imo Kakashi, and Jiraiya would be higher than Raikage and Killer Bee. Gaara should be in the list aswell.


----------



## Ecydysis (Dec 5, 2009)

It's not a bad list, but ignoring my fandom I would change:



Inu said:


> 1.rikudo sennin
> 2.hashirama
> 3.madara
> 4.nagato
> ...



I don't believe Sage Naruto has overall surpassed Itachi or Minato just yet. 



Inu said:


> 7.killer bee
> 8.raikage
> 9.hanzo/prime sarutobi
> 10.jiraya/orochimaru



I believe the two Sanin should be switched with the Kumo brothers. 



Inu said:


> 11.sasuke/gaara- once he masters susanoo, he'll move to naruto's level.
> 12.sasori
> 13.tsunade



Tsuande probably _will_ be this high up, but she can't back it up yet.



Inu said:


> 14.deidara/kisame
> 15.kakauzu
> 16.kakashi




Kakashi should be significantly higher in my opinion. Hidan shouldn' be here.



Inu said:


> 17.hidan
> 18.gai
> 19.konan
> 20.AO



Gai should be higher as well with his Gates. And Ao compares to these: 

-Mizukage
-Tsuchikage
-Sandaime Kazekage
-Yagura
-Uchiha Shisui
-Konoha's White Fang
-Nidaime Hokage
-Danzou


----------



## Big Mom (Dec 5, 2009)

1)Sage
2)Sarutobi(prime)
3)Hashirama
4)Madara/Onoki/Danzo
5)Minato
6)Nagato
7)Hanzo
8)Jiraiya
9)Itachi
10)Orchimaru
11)Kisame
12)Killer Bee
13)Raikage
14)Sasuke
15)Naruto
16)Konan
17)Sasori
18)Deidara
19)Kakuzu
20)Mizukage
21)Kakashi
22)Tsuande
23)Kabuto
24)Zetsu?(possibly higher)
25)Gai
ETC!

This is my personal opinion!

EDIT: I think danzo has enough potential to make it to Madara's level: Sharigan/ crafty/ manipulation/etc.


----------



## Ra (Dec 5, 2009)

1. Rikudo
2. Shodai
3. Madara
4. Killerbee
5. Nagato
6. Itachi
7. Raikage
8. Naruto
9. Minato
10. Sasuke
11. Gaara
12. Sasori
13. Deidara
14. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
15. Kisame
16. Kakuzu
17. Zetsu
18. Kakashi
19. Juugo
20. Suigetsu


----------



## Big Mom (Dec 5, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> 1. Rikudo
> 2. Shodai
> 3. Madara
> 4. Killerbee
> ...



Sarutobi? Onoki? Mizukage?

And I think most people underestimate Kisame. HE(with samehada combined) was hardley even stumped for a moment by Killer bee. He easily took advantage of his skills and was never stumped once.


----------



## ? (Dec 5, 2009)

Ecydysis said:


> I don't believe Sage Naruto has overall surpassed Itachi or Minato just yet.


i don't believe this either, but i was just trying to follow what was said in the manga. even though he lacks feats to prove this.


> I believe the two Sanin should be switched with the Kumo brothers.


i really don't see what either sannin could do to killer bee.


> Tsuande probably _will_ be this high up, but she can't back it up yet.


yeah, your right.


> Kakashi should be significantly higher in my opinion. Hidan shouldn' be here.


your probably right, it's just kishi has always made him fodder for akatsuki. but based on what he has in his arsenal he should be higher, but again plot makes him look weaker than what he could be.


> Gai should be higher as well with his Gates. Plus you have better choices:
> 
> -Mizukage
> -Tsuchikage
> ...


well there isn't really enough on them to even make a good estimate at where they stood.


----------



## Rampage (Dec 5, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> 1. Rikudo
> 2. Shodai
> 3. Madara
> 4. Killerbee
> ...



lol Juugo, Suigetu above Gai?
Jiraiya so low?


----------



## ? (Dec 5, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> 1. Rikudo
> 2. Shodai
> 3. Madara
> 4. Killerbee
> ...


horrible, horrible list.


----------



## Ecydysis (Dec 5, 2009)

Inu said:


> i don't believe this either, but i was just trying to follow what was said in the manga. even though he lacks feats to prove this.



This is understandable: perhaps you are correct.



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> your probably right, it's just kishi has always made him fodder for akatsuki. but based on what he has in his arsenal he should be higher, but again plot makes him look weaker than what he could be.



Stinking Kishi! _Raiton Bunshin_ plus _Kamui_ equals _greatness!_ 



			
				Inu said:
			
		

> well there isn't really enough on them to even make a good estimate at where they stood.



At the same time though: are you really putting Ao before _them?_



Inu said:


> i really don't see what either sannin could do to killer bee.



_Edo Tensei_ should defeat him. Jiraiya has a far harder match on his hands, but I believe he can win. The Sanin are very, very diverse fighters with a lot of Ninjutsu where as Killerbee is basically a tank to end all tanks. We've had a taste of a playful Orochimaru who toys with _'the God of Shinobi'_ and the _Kyubi_, but have never seen him be serious except for when he beat off _Death_ itself, and we know Jiraiya briefly tangled with the full might of Pein without knowledge and was commended by Negato. Featwise, Killerbee stomps, but all the greats have only shown potential, with few feats hinting at their deadliness, and I believe the Sanin to be among them.


----------



## Ra (Dec 5, 2009)

> Sarutobi? Onoki? Mizukage?
> 
> And I think most people underestimate Kisame. HE(with samehada combined) was hardley even stumped for a moment by Killer bee. He easily took advantage of his skills and was never stumped once.



Killerbee was holding back. I forgot to mention those three.



> lol Juugo, Suigetu above Gai?
> Jiraiya so low?



Gai can't beat suigetsu, and I doubt the six gates will be enough to kill juugo considering his armor. Also Jiriaya is overestimated he's exactly where he needs to be.



> horrible, horrible list.



I hope you're fandom was trolled.


----------



## Rampage (Dec 5, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> Gai can't beat suigetsu, and I doubt the six gates will be enough to kill juugo considering his armor. Also Jiriaya is overestimated he's exactly where he needs to be.



lol please thats just stupid 6 gates are more than enough in beating them, he dosent even need to resort to using 6 gates

Jiraiya deserves to be  higher


----------



## Jir667 (Dec 6, 2009)

1.Rikudo
2.1st hokage
3.Madara
4.Nagato
5.Itachi
6.Kisame
7.Jirayia
8.Raikage
9.Killerbee
10.Naruto


Thats my top 10


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## Ecydysis (Dec 6, 2009)

No Orochimaru


----------



## Jir667 (Dec 6, 2009)

Ecydysis said:


> No Orochimaru



nope,
He's top 20 worthy but not top 10 IMO


----------



## ? (Dec 6, 2009)

GrandKitaro777 said:


> I hope you're fandom was trolled.


no..why do you want to troll my fandom


----------



## GHKakashi (Dec 7, 2009)

Man WTF 've u been doin' with this list...
TOBIRAMA SENJU...
well i dont think he should be in the list where kakashi isnt...
infact kakashi should b higher in the list than him...
whatever we ve seen tobirama doin, so we ve seen kakashi doin...
n the only reason that u can cum up with is that tobirama had been kage while kakashi havnt been yet...
BUT as it is goin rite now, u wont b able to say that...
bcuz kakashi is gonna be hokage now...
u just cant assume that he was so strong bcuz he was kage...
as i ve already said,... whatever we ve seen him doin, so we ve seen kakashi doin
kakashi s gonna b kage pretty soon...
u then better recognize him as one of strongest in the narutoverse to ve ever apperar...
i dont wanna see u whining then,... k...

n yeah KISAME...
i think there should be samehada in the list instead of kisame...
there s very simple reason to that...
samehada is still there in the mange,... n kisame isnt...
well jokes apart...
kisame fans' irrational biasness apart...
we ve now seen that kisame was NOTHING without that samehada...
whatever damage he did to KB was with samehada...
n samehada isnt kisame's...
it s not some inanimate object that s possession of someone...
it is a living being...
has mind of its own...
has abilities of its own...
so,.. i think i m clear in my stand.


----------



## Csdabest (Dec 7, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Madara Uchiha
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Itachi/Jiraiya
5. Hiruzen Sarutobi
6. Nagato/Pain
7. Minato
8. Uchiha Sasuke
9. Raikage
10. Kisame
11. Kirabi
12. Naruto
13. Sasori
14. Dei
15. Kakuzu
16. kakashi
17. Oochimaru
18. Danzo
19. Kimimaro
20. Zabuza Sword


----------



## ? (Dec 7, 2009)

Csdabest said:


> 1. Sage of the Six Paths
> 2. Madara Uchiha
> 3. Hashirama Senju
> 4. Itachi/Jiraiya
> ...


you know your list is wrong when you have jiraiya above nagato, when nagato already defeated jiraiya without even going all out. thats just one of the many errors with that list i can't even began to point out.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 7, 2009)

1.RS/Healthy Nagato
3.Nagato/Minato
5.SM Naruto/Hashirama
7.MS Sasuke/Healthy Madara
9.Tobirama/Prime Hiruzen
11.HM Jiraiya/Current Madara
13.Healthy Itachi
14.Tsunade/Hanzo
16.Sasori/Itachi
18.Killer B/Killer A.
20.1010


----------



## Jir667 (Dec 7, 2009)

GHKakashi said:


> Man WTF 've u been doin' with this list...
> TOBIRAMA SENJU...
> well i dont think he should be in the list where kakashi isnt...
> infact kakashi should b higher in the list than him...
> ...





Well kinda wrong, in the fact that the 2nd fought against madara's little brother.
the second strongest uchiha at the time.
Which we know madara was first and he beat itachi,
and itachi beats kakashi liek he's nothing
its safe to assume that madara's little brother is either on par or above itachi.
and since the 2nd could fight him he should be above kakashi
of course this is all imo
but kakashi would be like 15th around there 




And samehada is kisame's weapon there for its counted as part of his arsenal.
so kisame gets samehada. it's all fair.
Also samehada couldnt win a fight by it's self since it can't move, unless absorbing tons of chakra.
so kisame is still up there he's one of the strongest people. he could beat kakashi. 
He's shown that he can fight gai like he's nothing. kakashi in speed is either equal to or less than kakashi and kisame was on him like he was nothing.
kakashi has MS and kamui, but depending on distance kisame could finish him pretty quickly. at the same time with distance kakashi more than likely couldnt finish kisame. depending how fast he can fire kamui depends if he win's, if he can't kill kisame with it before kisame shoots his giant water orb kakashi looses.


----------



## Jir667 (Dec 7, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> 1.RS/Healthy Nagato
> 3.Nagato/Minato
> 5.SM Naruto/Hashirama
> 7.MS Sasuke/Healthy Madara
> ...



i wanna disagree because 1. you have sasuke up there which is wtf? above itachi on par with madara? really?
sasuke is nothing compared to itachi. itachi while almost dead and almost blind had to go easy on sasuke so he could win. lol then minato on par with nagato? lol and naruto on par with hashirama? really?


----------



## xEzekiel15 (Dec 7, 2009)

In no particular order

- Rikudou Sennin
- Hashirama Senju
- Nagato
- Madara Uchiha
- Minato Namikaze

- Jiraiya
- Itachi Uchiha
- Naruto Uzumaki
- Sasuke Uchiha
- Hiruzen Sarutobi

- Orochimaru
- Kisame Hoshigaki
- Deidara
- Killer Bee
- Hanzo Salamander

- Tobirama Senju
- Sasori
- Kakashi
- Raikage
- Tsunade


----------



## Pyro (Dec 7, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Madara Uchiha
3. Hiruzen Sarutobi
4. Hashirama Senju
5. Minato Namikaze
6. Nagato/Pain
7. Raikage
8. Jiraiya
9. Itachi
10. Sasuke
11. Naruto
12. Killerbee
13. Kisame
14. Hanzo
15. Orochimaru
16. Tobirama Senju
17. Sasori
18. Kakuzu
19. Deidara
20. Kakashi


----------



## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

EDITED: version 2

1) Rikudou Sennin
2) Pein
3) Senju Hashirama
4) Uchiha Madara
5) Namikaze Minato
6) Uchiha Itachi
7) Sarutobi Hiruzen
8) Sasori
9) Raikage
10) Orochimaru
11) Jiraiya
12) Hatake Kakashi 
13) Uchiha Sasuke
14) Uzumaki Naruto
15) Gaara
16) Deidara
17) Hoshigaki Kisame
18) Killer Bee
19) Senju Tobimara
20) Gai


----------



## ? (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> 1) Rikudou Sennin
> 2) Uchiha Madara
> 3) Pein
> 4) Uchiha Itachi
> ...


it's funny you'd rank madara above hashirama even though hashirama beat him and kyuubi at one time.


----------



## Neelon (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Everybody has to comment my list



In brief, that's an awful list with so much flaws...
Still loling at Itachi ranked 4th!


----------



## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

Partly agree with both posts above. Yeah Itachi is deffinitely to high. Version two coming:

1) Rikudou Sennin
2) Pein
3) Senju Hashirama
4) Uchiha Madara
5) Namikaze Minato
6) Uchiha Itachi
7) Sarutobi Hiruzen
8) Sasori
9) Raikage
10) Orochimaru
11) Jiraiya
12) Hatake Kakashi 
13) Uchiha Sasuke
14) Uzumaki Naruto
15) Gaara
16) Deidara
17) Hoshigaki Kisame
18) Killer Bee
19) Senju Tobimara
20) Gai

Kinda hard with Pein, I guess he can be like 2-4. Same with Itachi, can be 6-8


----------



## `Monster (Dec 7, 2009)

I have just 9 

The OP's list is messed up. Even his/her 21-30.

Rikudo
Tsaunde
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Itachi
Nagato
Kakuzu
Hashimama
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Madara.

Thats not in order from power either, just people


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> 1) Rikudou Sennin
> 2) Uchiha Madara
> 3) Pein
> 4) Uchiha Itachi
> ...



This may very well be the worst list ive ever seen, this shows the offset mindset of uchitards.


----------



## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> This may very well be the worst list ive ever seen, this shows the offset mindset of uchitards.



Yay thanks xD tho I moved Itachi to 6th spot and also more people think he would defeat Raikage then otherwise. So I still find this way better than seing people like Kakuzu in top 5/10 here. Still I dont say my list´s the best, but not the worst. Also, you have Hashirama as no. 16 and Jiraiya as no. 5, that´s crazy


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Yay thanks xD tho I moved Itachi to 6th spot and also more people think he would defeat Raikage then otherwise. So I still find this way better than seing people like Kakuzu in top 5/10 here. Still I dont say my list´s the best, but not the worst. Also, you have Hashirama as no. 16 and Jiraiya as no. 5, that´s crazy



No its not, powerscaling, shodai has no feats at all non bijuu controllingwise that could suggest hes stronger than most of todays s class nins. Sarutobi was stated stronger than hashirama. The new mini databook strongly suggests that madara didnt have teleportation back in the vote fight. So hashirama wasnt fighting the invincible madara we see today.
Full out fighting wise, jiraiya has the third best feats to date behind naruto and nagato, HM jiraiya's strength, ninjutsu, taijutsu, Stamina and even genjutsu are all top tier.


----------



## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> No its not, powerscaling, shodai has no feats at all non bijuu controllingwise that could suggest hes stronger than most of todays s class nins. Sarutobi was stated stronger than hashirama. The new mini databook strongly suggests that madara didnt have teleportation back in the vote fight. So hashirama wasnt fighting the invincible madara we see today.



Well yeah, it?s questionable. More like hard to say when we?re talking about Bee for example, it?s normal to count he has a bijuu in him. So the question is if we should count with Hashirama controling few bijuu


----------



## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Well yeah, it?s questionable. More like hard to say when we?re talking about Bee for example, it?s normal to count he has a bijuu in him. So the question is if we should count with Hashirama controling few bijuu



I dont think we really should, because all the bijuu today are sealed somehow.


----------



## SpitefulSerpent5 (Dec 7, 2009)

For the purposes of this list, I'm going to state these rankings based on how these characters would usually fight others, meaning that the element of surprise will usually take effect. Many characters become increasingly dangerous when one doesn't have knowledge of their skills, in particular, Sasori and the MS users. I will also be ranking on each characters "Prime" condition. The Itachi we saw fight was dying and blind, and didn't even want to win. The Sarutobi was old and obviously restricted by chakra. Being "Prime" will include their abilities to use their strongest techniques, such as Edo Tensei and Nagato's rape techniques.

Honestly don't know where Nidaime and Hanzou would fit in this, so I'm not including them.


*Rikudo Sage*
For Obvious Reasons
*Uchiha Madara *
He may have lost before, but you can bet your ass he learned some sort of tricks in the time since that fight
*Nagato*
He's shown incredible rape techniques, Hashirama would _not_ know the secret, and Pein has several ridiculous rape moves.
*Hashirama Senjuu*
For reasons everybody has stated. He's a little lower mostly because him being dead gave others time to expand their skills. Madara has a personality of wanting to get more and more powerful, I don't think he'd stop trying to learn new techniques if he had the chance. Senjuu is on here primarily because of hearsay, which I dislike. But to do what he did requires such ridiculous power it's hard to place him lower.
*"Prime" Itachi *
Ridiculous power with the MS, the quality of his fight with Sasuke established him as extremely powerful, and we learned he didn't even want to win after?! Not to mention he was dying and blind?! A prime Itachi is at the height of his MS abilities (naturally has some eyesight degraded, but not enough to screw him over) and is completely healthy and determined to win. I have trouble imagining a more dangerous opponent.
*Akasuna no Sasori*
Without foreknowledge, you have to avoid being hit in any way, shape, or form to survive. Chiyo and Sakura had multiple antidotes, near complete knowledge of how to counter his attacks, and even managed to make his resolve waver. And one of them still ended up dying. He would beat characters below him simply because they wouldn't worry about being scratched until it was too late. 
*"Prime" Orochimaru *
Edo Tensei, Hydra, White Snake Regeneration make him ridiculously powerful when using all his best moves at once, something Kishi refuses to do in the manga. The poison that nobody would suspect from his White Snake Transformation alone makes him a beast. There's no way to counter it, the only reason why Sasuke survived is because he was able to absorb him in time. Without knowledge, most wouldn't be able to stand up to him.
*Deidara *
C4 and flight. If you don't see C4 coming, you're likely screwed. Oro is higher because he'd probably just hide on reflex. Truth is, without Sharingan or a body that can't breathe, Deidara probably rapes everybody with C4. Sasuke may have beaten him, but if one looks at that matchup, Sasuke happens to be specifically designed with counters to every one of Deidara's techniques, and surviving the self-destruct is possibly most blatant use of "PnJ" anybody can point out in the manga - though Samehada's convenient "betrayal" recently comes close.
*"Prime" Jiraiya *
Frog Stomach, Sage Mode, etc. A truly powered Jiraiya is a powerhouse, but he's only pure power. He doesn't have much in the way of instant kills, and that is he ranks so low on this list. Everybody else above him has a move that is nearly impossible to survive without knowledge or a special ability to see it coming before it's too late. Jiraiya is probably one of the highest in pure power, but a true ninja's greatest weapon is deception, something he's never had in spades.
*"Prime" Sarutobi *
Said to be the perfect ninja, likely had ridiculous power when younger. The ability to take on two Kages at such and old age is still astonishing. In his prime, he very likely was stronger than Jiraiya _and_ Oro. It's hard to imagine though, and the lack of any killer moves forces me to put him lower on this list, though he and Jiraiya are tied here IMO.
*Minato Namikaze*
I know I'm going to catch shit for putting him this low, but people can't rely on hearsay so much. He's shown godly speed, normal rasengan, and Shiki Fuujin. True, he never reached his prime, but Shiki Fuujin would grant a win much of the time, speed also makes him quite hard to kill. Sadly, his trump card makes that win a tie. He's below Itachi and Sasori mostly because he never peaked, and I honestly believe he's overrated. A sacrifice technique is good, but it won't make you the best to be with in a fight if you die too.
*Hoshigake Kisame *
The Chakra Beast has the power to match himself up against anybody, and like Deidara, can go into his own element to weaken opponents and strengthen himself. His weakness to genjutsu hurts him though. Still can't believe how they killed him off.
*Naruto/Sasuke *
Both have gotten ridiculously strong, and aren't showing signs of slowing down. Defeating Pein was an amazing feat for Sage Mode Naruto, and power wise he's become incredible. But Sasuke recently broke into a compound with FIVE kages (and their personal guards) and wreaked all types of bullshit down. That one ninja can dare do that is ridiculous, and frankly scary. MS provides him with some powerful attacks that can also become instant kills if used correctly. I don't feel comfortable ranking either ahead of each other, and personally hope the manga will end with them being equals in power - though Naruto will predictably win with a dramatic speech that destroys Sasuke's resolve. It's no secret I prefer Sasuke, but I wouldn't give either the advantage here.
*Naruto/Sasuke*
See above
*Raikage*
"Better" than his bro, great physical attacks. I'm only including Kages I know about it this list.
*Killerbee*
'Cause he can freestyle, yo!
*Hakate Kakashi*
He may have recently been surpassed by his students, but he's still ridiculously powerful, his MS being an instant kill he keeps getting better and better at. 
*Kakuzu* 
Chakra beast with diversity
*8 Gates Gai* 
Because he must be on every Top 20 list everywhere. Though I think people want him to be a lot stronger than he is. Six Gates beat a 30% Kisame, but we've seen people so much stronger than that...
*Hidan* 
The element of surprise can makes him extremely deadly, though not invincible


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 7, 2009)

I'd agree with everything on SS5's list apart from maybe Hidan.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

> I have trouble imagining a more dangerous opponent.



Then why have you ranked him 5th


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> For the purposes of this list, I'm going to state these rankings based on how these characters would usually fight others, meaning that the element of surprise will usually take effect. Many characters become increasingly dangerous when one doesn't have knowledge of their skills, in particular, Sasori and the MS users. I will also be ranking on each characters "Prime" condition. The Itachi we saw fight was dying and blind, and didn't even want to win. The Sarutobi was old and obviously restricted by chakra. Being "Prime" will include their abilities to use their strongest techniques, such as Edo Tensei and Nagato's rape techniques.
> 
> Honestly don't know where Nidaime and Hanzou would fit in this, so I'm not including them.
> 
> ...


This is also a pretty bad list, pretty much everything jiraiya has can 1 shot any nin other than pain. Gaint rasengan, a kick from HM, frog song, swamp of the underworld, toad mouth binding, and he has the stamina to pull all these off without much fatigue at all, giant rasengan has the killing power of amaterasu, while amaterasu rhapes itachis stamina and eyesight and jiraiya can pretty much spam this move. 
I think your putting people with "big finishing moves" at the top, while minato with hiraishin could kill people with just a kunai or rasengan. 
Its not about the last resort moves, some high level nins can pull off kill moves without almost killing themselves, ie; jiraiya, minato,killerbee


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> [*]*Minato Namikaze*
> I know I'm going to catch shit for putting him this low, but people can't rely on hearsay so much. He's shown godly speed, normal rasengan, and Shiki Fuujin. True, he never reached his prime, but Shiki Fuujin would grant a win much of the time, speed also makes him quite hard to kill. Sadly, his trump card makes that win a tie. He's below Itachi and Sasori mostly because he never peaked, and I honestly believe he's overrated. A sacrifice technique is good, but it won't make you the best to be with in a fight if you die too.



It´s not speed. And that jutsu (Hiraishin) is the key to win, that´s why he´s that good. Dont even include Shiki Fuujin (sacrificing yourself is not something you can do every battle). For me he is the character I wanna see most while fighting. When you think about it - how well was Naruto doing vs Pein. Now imagine Minato can do the same (but not FRS) and he has Hiraishin. Damn, that´s so unbeatable. Sage mode hokage teleporting himself where he wants to avoid attacks and delivering a strike. Just wow.

Also, Hidan is pretty dangerous, no doubt about that. But he is that good only against specific people, or he he´s not that good against specific people. There´s a lot of things that can defeat him with RELATIVE ease, for example ranged fighters or genjutsu. He´s excellent, but depends on opponent a lot. That´s why I think he shouldnt be listed here.


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## SpitefulSerpent5 (Dec 7, 2009)

You might have a point there, Gai would probably rape Hidan *edits*


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## Ecydysis (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is a *very* good list with excellent reasoning. +reps


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## Ecydysis (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Damn, that´s so unbeatable. Sage mode hokage teleporting himself where he wants to avoid attacks and delivering a strike. Just wow.



Minato did not have Sage Mode: Naruto's the first. Maybe Hermit Mode.

But I don't see him pulling off the warts and deformed nose.



DarkRasengan said:


> This is also a pretty bad list, pretty much everything jiraiya has can 1 shot any nin other than pain. Gaint rasengan, a kick from HM, frog song, swamp of the underworld, toad mouth binding, and he has the stamina



Well it's obvious who your favorite character is 

But SS5 is right, Jiraiya loses to the people above without knowledge.


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## SpitefulSerpent5 (Dec 7, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> This is also a pretty bad list, pretty much everything jiraiya has can 1 shot any nin other than pain. Gaint rasengan, a kick from HM, frog song, swamp of the underworld, toad mouth binding, and he has the stamina to pull all these off without much fatigue at all, giant rasengan has the killing power of amaterasu, while amaterasu rhapes itachis stamina and eyesight and jiraiya can pretty much spam this move.
> I think your putting people with "big finishing moves" at the top, while minato with hiraishin could kill people with just a kunai or rasengan.
> Its not about the last resort moves, some high level nins can pull off kill moves without almost killing themselves, ie; jiraiya, minato,killerbee



First off, everybody has their own opinion, I haven't insulted anybody elses list, no need to insult mine. Jiraiya has one shot moves, but all of them can be seen coming with the exception of Frog Song, Stomach and Swamp. Frog Song requires HM, which is extremely hard to use against other nins going all out. He barely managed to achieve it while fighting one Pein. What if he was against all six? Giant Rasengan has killing power, but not as absolute as Amaterasu (a small few certain characters I believe could tank it) and unlike Amaterasu doesn't follow your opponent around and stay around as a hazard. I'm not putting "big finishing moves" at the top rather than moves that are "one shot kills" that are extremely hard to counter. If Deidara used C4, how exactly could Jiraiya know not to breathe it in? Why would Jiraiya know not to let Sasori get even one scratch on him, and would he even be capable of that type of dodging? The moves are last resort because it makes the story more dramatic. In reality, they would destroy the competition.



SharinganSkill said:


> It?s not speed. And that jutsu (Hiraishin) is the key to win, that?s why he?s that good. Dont even include Shiki Fuujin (sacrificing yourself is not something you can do every battle). For me he is the character I wanna see most while fighting. When you think about it - how well was Naruto doing vs Pein. Now imagine Minato can do the same (but not FRS) and he has Hiraishin. Damn, that?s so unbeatable. Sage mode hokage teleporting himself where he wants to avoid attacks and delivering a strike. Just wow.



True, it is a jutsu, but it's one where everybody knows where he's teleporting, meaning that he can be ambushed and hurt. I'm not saying everybody above Minato would defeat him, but in overall power, he's not top. Hiraishin is good, but the manga has progressed to the point where a normal rasengan simply doesn't cut it as far as power goes.



> Also, Hidan is pretty dangerous, no doubt about that. But he is that good only against specific people, or he he?s not that good against specific people. There?s a lot of things that can defeat him with RELATIVE ease, for example ranged fighters or genjutsu. He?s excellent, but depends on opponent a lot.



Genjutsu is a great solution against Hidan, but ranged fighters can be overcome, especially if one is invincible. You do have a good point there, and Hidan's placement was more because I could think of no others than anything. A Butterfly Chouza or maybe even (ugh) Tsunade may have been a choice.


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

Jir667 said:


> Well kinda wrong, in the fact that the 2nd fought against madara's little brother.
> the second strongest uchiha at the time.
> Which we know madara was first and he beat itachi,
> and itachi beats kakashi liek he's nothing
> ...




thats a load of crap, kisames ocean jutsu helps kakashi more than it helps kisame.

kakashis offensive jutsu in suiton trump anything that kisame has shown actually.

kakashi has shown the ability to transport non-human objects incredibly quickly, such as deidaras bunshin and the nail that pein shot at him or the missile.

without samehada kisame is trash and has no good feats whatsoever.

kakashi>kisame.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> First off, everybody has their own opinion, I haven't insulted anybody elses list, no need to insult mine. Jiraiya has one shot moves, but all of them can be seen coming with the exception of Frog Song, Stomach and Swamp. Frog Song requires HM, which is extremely hard to use against other nins going all out. He barely managed to achieve it while fighting one Pein. What if he was against all six? Giant Rasengan has killing power, but not as absolute as Amaterasu (a small few certain characters I believe could tank it) and unlike Amaterasu doesn't follow your opponent around and stay around as a hazard. I'm not putting "big finishing moves" at the top rather than moves that are "one shot kills" that are extremely hard to counter. If Deidara used C4, how exactly could Jiraiya know not to breathe it in? Why would Jiraiya know not to let Sasori get even one scratch on him, and would he even be capable of that type of dodging? The moves are last resort because it makes the story more dramatic. In reality, they would destroy the competition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amaterasu hasnt killed anywon, not even a fodder samerai, giant rasengan took out 2 giant summons and the only other thing that wasnt taken out had a convieniant power to absorb it....


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 7, 2009)

Samurai's armour protected him. Amaterasu doesn't blast through shit, it burns.


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## SpitefulSerpent5 (Dec 7, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Amaterasu hasnt killed anywon, not even a fodder samerai, giant rasengan took out 2 giant summons and the only other thing that wasnt taken out had a convieniant power to absorb it....



Is that really your argument? Which move has been shown to kill more people? I'm not giving that any response. SharinganSkill showed thoughtful critique which I have no problem replying to. You seem to just want to start an argument. Give me a decent argument and I'll answer that next time.


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## Rampage (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> For the purposes of this list, I'm going to state these rankings based on how these characters would usually fight others, meaning that the element of surprise will usually take effect. Many characters become increasingly dangerous when one doesn't have knowledge of their skills, in particular, Sasori and the MS users. I will also be ranking on each characters "Prime" condition. The Itachi we saw fight was dying and blind, and didn't even want to win. The Sarutobi was old and obviously restricted by chakra. Being "Prime" will include their abilities to use their strongest techniques, such as Edo Tensei and Nagato's rape techniques.
> 
> Honestly don't know where Nidaime and Hanzou would fit in this, so I'm not including them.
> 
> ...



We haven't seen what 8 gates Gai possesses so i don't see how you can rank him. 6 gates Gai raped the shit out of Kisame. i personally think that Kakuzu should be higher than Kakashi and Jiraiya should be higher than Deidara, but meh it's your opinion


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

uzumaki lee said:


> We haven't seen what 8 gates Gai possesses so i don't see how you can rank him. 6 gates Gai raped the shit out of Kisame. i personally think that Kakuzu should be higher than Kakashi and Jiraiya should be higher than Deidara, but meh it's your opinion



no its manga canon that kakashi defeats kakuzu with kamui.

that and he had to protect 2 weaklings during their fight.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

daschysta said:


> no its manga canon that kakashi defeats kakuzu with kamui



No it isn't, what lies are these.


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## Rampage (Dec 7, 2009)

daschysta said:


> no its manga canon that kakashi defeats kakuzu with kamui.
> 
> that and he had to protect 2 weaklings during their fight.



lol what. can you tell me how thats manga canon?


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 7, 2009)

It did rape the shit out of Kisame. 30% Kisame who wasn't bloodlusted and was ordered only to stall Team Gai.


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## Csdabest (Dec 7, 2009)

Inu said:


> you know your list is wrong when you have jiraiya above nagato, when nagato already defeated jiraiya without even going all out. thats just one of the many errors with that list i can't even began to point out.



Nagto stated he could not have won against jiraiy if it wasn't for a secret. So you can blow me. My list not yours. So gtfo


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## Rampage (Dec 7, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> It did rape the shit out of Kisame. 30% Kisame who wasn't bloodlusted and was ordered only to stall Team Gai.



If im not wrong he was about to kill Lee, Neji and tenten, that alone suggests he was going for the kill aswell


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

It is manga canon because Kishimoto made a point of going back and even showing the readers the exact panel where kakashi would have used kamui to defeat kakuzu, Kakashi also confirms this statement. "If you would not have shown up I would have had to use kamui, and then I would have been in the hospital."

Obviously if kamui would have failed kakashi would have died, not just been in the hospital.

Add that to the fact that kakashi was fighting hidan and kakuzu at once and its pretty obvious that unhindered kakashi is above him.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> 30% Kisame who wasn't bloodlusted and was ordered only to stall Team Gai.



The fuck? Do you really think Pain or the rest of Akatsuki gave a shit if Kisame chose to slaughter Team Gai in that scenario? 

In case you missed it Kisame intended to drown Gai's students with his Water Prisons while bludgeoning the great man to death.



daschysta said:


> It is manga canon because Kishimoto made a point of going back and even showing the readers the exact panel where kakashi would have used kamui to defeat kakuzu, Kakashi also confirms this statement. "If you would not have shown up I would have had to use kamui, and then I would have been in the hospital."
> 
> Obviously if kamui would have failed kakashi would have died, not just been in the hospital.
> 
> Add that to the fact that kakashi was fighting hidan and kakuzu at once and its pretty obvious that unhindered kakashi is above him.



-snip- Show me the page where Kakashi mentions he would have killed Kakuzu with Kamui.

And then try to make an argument why he didn't do it right from the off anyway.


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## ? (Dec 7, 2009)

Csdabest said:


> Nagto stated he could not have won against jiraiy if it wasn't for a secret. So you can blow me. My list not yours. So gtfo


nice flamebate bro 

but it doesn't matter, that is like giving pein a handicap. knowledge is one of his advantages.

and how biased of you  you are willing to except that statement pein made, yet you ignore the statement in the manga that said naruto surpassed minato and jiraiya.....


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## Rampage (Dec 7, 2009)

daschysta said:


> It is manga canon because Kishimoto made a point of going back and even showing the readers the exact panel where kakashi would have used kamui to defeat kakuzu, Kakashi also confirms this statement. "If you would not have shown up I would have had to use kamui, and then I would have been in the hospital."
> 
> Obviously if kamui would have failed kakashi would have died, not just been in the hospital.
> 
> Add that to the fact that kakashi was fighting hidan and kakuzu at once and its pretty obvious that unhindered kakashi is above him.



lol Okay you keep believing that


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

Tobirama said:


> The fuck? Do you really think Pain or the rest of Akatsuki gave a shit if Kisame chose to slaughter Team Gai in that scenario?
> 
> In case you missed it Kisame intended to drown Gai's students with his Water Prisons while bludgeoning the great man to death.
> 
> ...



I will find the page, though if anyone else remembers the page it will save me some time.

And also the reason he did not use it off the bat?

PNJ and its becoming more and more obvious by the day that kishimoto gave kakashi a jutsu that is too broken, therefore he restricts kakashi to using it as a last resort.


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## Mongolian Chop Squad (Dec 7, 2009)

Inu said:


> nice flamebate bro
> 
> but it doesn't matter, that is like giving pein a handicap. knowledge is one of his advantages.
> 
> and how biased of you  you are willing to except that statement pein made, yet you ignore the statement in the manga that said naruto surpassed minato and jiraiya.....



See, the thing with this manga is that there are so many inconsistencies. The manga said Naruto surpassed Kakashi when he completed Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, but was he really the better shinobi? Same with Minato, did you really believe that Naruto is a better shinobi than the Yondaime Hokage at the point that it was said in the manga.

I would argue that in both cases Naruto had not surpassed who he was said to have surpassed. I guess it's each to his own though.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

daschysta said:


> And also the reason he did not use it off the bat?
> 
> PNJ and its becoming more and more obvious by the day that kishimoto gave kakashi a jutsu that is too broken, therefore he restricts kakashi to using it as a last resort.



Kamui isn't broken. It's never been broken. It's overrated. 

Fan hype.


And find that page before you post again.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> Is that really your argument? Which move has been shown to kill more people? I'm not giving that any response. SharinganSkill showed thoughtful critique which I have no problem replying to. You seem to just want to start an argument. Give me a decent argument and I'll answer that next time.



We haveto judge everything by feats, not imaginary pedastels that you put characters or moves up in your head, judging by feats giant rasengan has more killing power than amaterasu. Your question at the start doesn't show that my argument is null, its just you have nothing to combat it so you try and make it look like i have a shitty argument when it is the most reliable thing we can go by. Would samurais armor protect against giant rasengan? No it wouldnt.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> We haveto judge everything by feats, not imaginary pedastels that you put characters or moves up in your head, judging by feats giant rasengan has more killing power than amaterasu. Your question at the start doesn't show that my argument is null, its just you have nothing to combat it so you try and make it look like i have a shitty argument when it is the most reliable thing we can go by. Would samurais armor protect against giant rasengan? No it wouldnt.



Can clearly see your point there and yes, you´re right. Both jutsu have some advantages. For example, I dont see rasengan killing Hachibi, while amaterasu won it for Sasuke there. There are some situations where rasengan can be more useful and some where amaterasu fits better


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

I dont make up manga pages.

what you see here is kakashi stating flatout that he would have used kamui, complete with scene that he would have used it.

Kakashi would have hospitalized himself, but kakuzu would have been defeated, unless you believe that kakashi is implying kakuzu would have just left kakashi alone after surviving kamui?

so yes its not way off to call it manga canon.

kakashis statements are given even more weight since his feats with kamui have just improved, such as his ability to activate and use it instantly.

It's not overrated it really is broken and only held back by PNJ.

that page is just kishis way of saying "yes kamui can warp away high level people, but the fights would be boring if characters used thier trumps right off the bat"

same reason naruto doesnt use FRS first

Or sasuke doesnt immediately begin prepping kirin

or itachi doesnt immediately use susanoo

or pein doesnt immediately destroy villages

or oro doesnt immediately use hydra

or JMAN doesnt summon ma and pa immediately

Now that kakashi is going to be hokage, he may be allowed to use it more efficiently for hype purposes, but that is just my conjecture
You get the point. PNJ


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

daschysta said:


> I dont make up manga pages.
> 
> what you see here is kakashi stating flatout that he would have used kamui, complete with scene that he would have used it.



Yes that is all well and good but how does that show he would have hit Kakuzu, when Deidara, massively slower, has dodged Kamui before.

It's a character statement, not Kishimoto.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

Here is the scene: Kakashi's Kamui works via field of vision. It was completely obscured by Kakuzu's technique. 

Kakashi would have died trying Kamui and Kakuzu would proceed to kill everyone.


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 7, 2009)

Tobirama said:


> Yes that is all well and good but how does that show he would have hit Kakuzu, when Deidara, massively slower, has dodged Kamui before.
> 
> It's a character statement, not Kishimoto.



Against Deidara it was the first time he?s used it. But look at the progress he?s made between that fight and battle against Pein. He was able to use it immediately there, so there you practically cant dodge it. We just dont know how far his progress was during his fight against Kakuzu/Hidan.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

SharinganSkill said:


> Against Deidara it was the first time he´s used it.



No it wasn't.

It was the first time we saw it being used. Big difference.



> But look at the progress he´s made between that fight and battle against Pein. He was able to use it immediately there, so there you practically cant dodge it. We just dont know how far his progress was during his fight against Kakuzu/Hidan.



How about you look at the above post and tell me how Kamui would bypass an inferno completely obscuring his field of vision.


Your username is oxymoronic, on a (loosely) related note.


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

kakashi knows how his jutsu works and apparently believed that it would kill kakuzu, those are the simple facts, and kishi uses kakashi as a mouthpiece constantly.

I take kakashi's statements in the manga over the conjecture of a poster.

and kakashis kamui sucked up not only deidaras explosion but the bunshin as well.

that is a huge huge target.

he could have likely done something similar here just sucked in the whole thing kakuzu and all, and since he says he could have done it and he has improved feats there is no reason to believe he could not have done it.

its not unbelievable when he has kamuid giant things before.

Kakashi says he would have done it he would have done it, no reason to doubt him.


also keep in mind kishi retcons constantly

there is no reason for the panel to exist other than kishi telling us that kakashi would have defeated the zombie.

beyond kamui hype, kakashi was still fighting hidan and kakuzu at once.

He survived a tag team attack that noone had ever survived before, both of the zombie brothers believed kakashi to be dead. 

If kakashi didnt ahve to reveal himself and waste two raikiri protecting fodder then kakashi could have raikiri blitzed an unknowing kakuzu again, except he would know not to allow the hearts to reach his body.
that or just raikirid/ kamuid his head off, it really wouldnt be hard as kakuzu would not have been expecting an attack from a dead man.


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## Tobirama (Dec 7, 2009)

daschysta said:


> kakashi knows how his jutsu works and apparently believed that it would kill kakuzu, those are the simple facts, and kishi uses kakashi as a mouthpiece constantly.
> 
> I take kakashi's statements in the manga over the conjecture of a poster.
> 
> ...



-snip-


Kakashi sucking up that explosion was using the same Kamui that Deidara had dodged earlier, so not a very good example, son.

Kakashi isn't Kishimoto's mouthpiece, which orifice did you dig that one out of.


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

I stated that the explosion kakashi sucked up earlier was just as large or larger that kakuzus jutsu.

kakashi successfully sucked up the explosion, and furthermore kakuzu was stationary.

kamui has been shown to be instant.

it works by creating a field and sucking up anything within the field to another dimension.

If kakashi believes that he could have killed kakuzu with it then he believes that he would have been able to suck up not only the jutsu but also kakuzu.

I think kakashi knows how the jutsu works better that you do.

It is instant and can teleport large targets, which are the only conditions needed for it to end kakuzu at that point.

I dont know why you cannot grasp this fairly obvious point when the mangaka is shoving it down our throats.

and seriously?
"BLAH BLAH BLAH NANANANANANAN I CANT HEAR U WHAT EVIDENCE LOL PQWND!!!"

it seems like you are the one running short on debatable rhetoric.

I have responded to what little evidence you have, as unconvincing as it was.

lemme know when you have more


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## Gonhar (Dec 7, 2009)

Problem with putting people up high who have MS jutsu's is that its a self damaging Jutsu, not as severe as Diedera's C0 but its not a power you can't do over and over and over and over again. Kakashi can't rely upon it leaves him vulnerable after a few uses and will eventually lead to him being blind in that eye, so for that to be his only S rank move makes it kinda hard to decide whether he should even make the top 20. Even though he may beable to kill most of those on the top 20 with it.


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

raikiri is S ranked.... as is raikiri wolf likely by extension.

also should itachi not be high up because he relies so heavily on MS jutsus?

I dont think anyone argues kakashi shouldnt be top 20, just where he places within it.

and if kakashi can defeat mid tier akatsuki like kakuzu and deidara with it then he deserves to be right up there with them.

you are also overestimating how dangerous it is to kakashi.

kakashi was able to use doton wall RKB Raikiri wolf and numerous numerous rakiris and THEN use kamui against pein.

It is only after that that one more kamui drained the rest of his chakra.

It is no more dangerous to his than naruto's fuuton rasenshuriken before he could throw it.
or amaterasu tsukiyomi and susanoo to sasuke and itachi

or anyother amount of trump cards.

so yeah he deserves to be between 12-9/8 in any list IMO


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## Big Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

I think people seriously underestimate Kisame. He only lost becuase it was two on one. Then, he was told to not kill Killer B. If he was told to kill him, then he could have easily done that.


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## daschysta (Dec 7, 2009)

Well with kisame you do have to attest to the fact that samehada is a separate entity, and an unloyal one apparently at that. He isnt very good without samehada, and his suitons are less impressive than expected from an AK member that is from the mist.

Also bee was his perfect opponent if samehada would have stayed loyal as bees most powerful forms and atttacks involve raiton or Bijuu chakra leaking from his body making samehada the perfect counter with its absorbtion abilities.

Kisame is below sasori, deidara, and kakuzu imo.


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## Big Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

I find Kisame the 4th strongest member(under Madara, Nagato, & Itachi). Once you are in his water dome, thats it, its over. He spams shark bomb all over the water. And the only way Samehada would go to someone else is if they have immense chakra(similar to a demon) which no other ninja in the world9minus the demons and Kisame) have.


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## SpitefulSerpent5 (Dec 7, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> We haveto judge everything by feats, not imaginary pedastels that you put characters or moves up in your head, judging by feats giant rasengan has more killing power than amaterasu.



A much clearer argument instead of "More people have been killed by Rasengan in the manga than Amaterasu."

Still, while Rasengan has more "brute force" than Amaterasu, it's meant too. Amaterasu burns, it doesn't explode, naturally it doesn't have "peircing" power, that's not what makes Amaterasu the more dangerous technique. It is a much more accurate technique, and thus more dangerous to the average ninja. The only way to avoid it is to have it target something other than yourself, whether it's a replacement (like with Sasuke and Killerbee) or something you'll have time to cut yourself off from while the user is distracted. Consider how insanely fast Sasuke has been shown to be in the manga, and now take into account that he still got caught. Raikage and Killerbee have also been shown to be some of the fastest characters in the series, and Raikage only barely dodged the move. 

The Samurai you're so fond of using is attacked , and anybody studying it can see something rather obvious: he was not the target. Sasuke does not continue the attack on him, but rather completely shifts his attention once Bee moves. Had Sasuke focused his attention, the samurai would have been destroyed. As it was, he only got a minimum amount of fire on him, and was lucky. Giant Rasengan is nothing more than an extremely powerful normal jutsu, perhaps even less of one due to the close range required. Yes, it killed two summons, but we've seen Sakura's punches do the same if I remember correctly. Powerful, but as easy to avoid as any other deadly attack. Amaterasu is deadly because it's hard to avoid, especially without knowledge of it. Anybody can realize they need to run from the glowing blue ball, but how many of those same people should be aware black fire might spontaneously erupt from their shoulders?



> Your question at the start doesn't show that my argument is null, its just you have nothing to combat it so you try and make it look like i have a shitty argument when it is the most reliable thing we can go by. Would samurais armor protect against giant rasengan? No it wouldnt.



When I see a post with bad spelling/grammar that seems to have an inane argument, my normal reaction is to ignore it as an attempt to start a shouting match. I respond to real arguments or comments, not whining. This current post was one of the former and thus my answer.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 7, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> A much clearer argument instead of "More people have been killed by Rasengan in the manga than Amaterasu."
> 
> Still, while Rasengan has more "brute force" than Amaterasu, it's meant too. Amaterasu burns, it doesn't explode, naturally it doesn't have "peircing" power, that's not what makes Amaterasu the more dangerous technique. It is a much more accurate technique, and thus more dangerous to the average ninja. The only way to avoid it is to have it target something other than yourself, whether it's a replacement (like with Sasuke and Killerbee) or something you'll have time to cut yourself off from while the user is distracted. Consider how insanely fast Sasuke has been shown to be in the manga, and now take into account that he still got caught. Raikage and Killerbee have also been shown to be some of the fastest characters in the series, and Raikage only barely dodged the move.
> 
> ...


First off if i wasnt on a message boards for a manga i would probably take the time to spell check. And second, i know its a different kind of damage, but its really only shown to be affective against big giant targets. Any s-class nin can probably defend against it somehow, and its been shown to be blocked or dodged at a close distance. It wouldnt be a stretch to speculate if it hit narutos midsection that he could just throw his jacket off and be perfectly fine.


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## Hamaru (Dec 7, 2009)

1) 6 paths Sage
2) Shodai
3) Madara
4) Killer Bee
5) Raikage
6) Hanzo
7) Danzo
8) Sage Jiriaya
9) Sage Naruto
10) Itachi


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## Gonhar (Dec 8, 2009)

daschysta said:


> raikiri is S ranked.... as is raikiri wolf likely by extension.



Chidori which is a Raikiri is A rank same as Rasengan. And we haven't seen Raikiri wolf hurt anything yet so you can't really say its anything special. Kirin is the only S rank Raikiri we've seen so far I'm pretty sure.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 8, 2009)

...Amaterasu is much more lethal than Odama Rasengan. Wanna know why? Despite the fact that SS5 posted the reason why several times?

_*Amaterasu*_

It follows the opponent until it reaches him. It burned through something that was previously thought as fire proof and impossible to escape. Not only that, but once it hits the target, regardless if the user stops looking at him/her it *continues burning.* Once the target is dead, it spreads. Itachi made Amaterasu around the size of a Gourkakyuu, by the time Itachi died, it took Winding Fissure to subdue *part of it.* Unless you have some kind of special Replacement technique(Killer Bee and Sasuke), immense speed(Raikage) or some kind of protection(un named fodder Samurai#8) your screwed. 

_*Chou Odama Rasengan*_

Despite the fact it has much more brute power than Amaterasu, it's much less lethal. It's less accurate, since it isn't exactly huge nor does it home in on the target. It doesn't have the ability to spread and become a hazard to anyone who goes near it, it just disperses. Any S Class Ninja with decent speed could dodge it and perhaps it's biggest flaw is that it requires Sennin mode to use.


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## Jir667 (Dec 8, 2009)

daschysta said:


> thats a load of crap, kisames ocean jutsu helps kakashi more than it helps kisame.
> 
> kakashis offensive jutsu in suiton trump anything that kisame has shown actually.
> 
> ...



lol really?
i know your a kakashi fan boy but your not serious?

I mean gai and kakashi can fight 1v1
and we all know kisame rapes gai unless he's 6th gate
That gaint water orb helps kisame who guess what?
breathes under water kakashi isnt fast enough of a swimmer to get out.
also kisame in that water is a god, also 6 shark jutsu bye kakashi. and also kakashi can't get rid of that much water period
and kisame got samehada from someone, so you wanna say no samehada 
kakashi doesnt get sharingan, now kakashi is just kinda strong



daschysta said:


> I dont make up manga pages.
> 
> what you see here is kakashi stating flatout that he would have used kamui, complete with scene that he would have used it.
> 
> ...




Ok 1. kakashi would not of killed him sorry, unless you can show me a feat of kakashi getting rid of something the size of kakuzu? an arm and a nail no body? 
2. you need alot of clouds for kirin or ama which sasuke just got? so he can't prep it normally
3.itachi only uses it when he's gonna die cause it kills him and its so slow that it can't attack you if you run back
4. pain wanted to get info so he couldnt destroy the village right away? also why destory a village when you dont need to? but pain also stated he would destory a village in an instant if he got his weapon, and allthey need to do is basicaly threaten to fight
5. he's never foughten anyone he needed to summon him against
6.again same with j-man only one person he really needed to summon him against
7.kakashi is not going to be kage imo
maybe a subsitute but tsunade will wake up and kakashi wouldnt be a good  kage,
he doesnt like that kinda of work he's lazy
yamato would be a way better kage than kakashi


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 8, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> ...Amaterasu is much more lethal than Odama Rasengan. Wanna know why? Despite the fact that SS5 posted the reason why several times?
> 
> _*Amaterasu*_
> 
> ...



It doesnt burn through things quick enough for it to be uncounterable against an s-class shinobi, its also shown to be blocked or dodged so it doesnt follow you until it his you because raikage dodged it and that was the end of it. Kisame can absorb it, jiraiya can seal it, sasori can just eject into another body, sasuke can genesis rebirth, naruto can use bunshins or speed to stop from even getting hit by it. Probably alot more, and after the counter or absorbtion is done, the user of amaterasu is holding his bleeding eye, panting waiting to get face raped.
While you can spam giant rasengans and it doesnt give anywon time to use their specialties to react to it.
Its biggest flaw isnt that sage mode users can only do it, if somewons in sage mode theyr most likely too fast for anywon to dodge it, its much larger than a person as well.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 8, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> It doesnt burn through things quick enough for it to be uncounterable against an s-class shinobi



.

It burned through the frog stomach pretty damn quick.



> , its also shown to be blocked or dodged so it doesnt follow you until it his you because raikage ddged it and that was the end of it.



Blocked? Only by armour.
Dodged? You think every single S class Ninja has Raikage level speed?



> Kisame can absorb it, jiraiya can seal it, sasori can just eject into another body, sasuke can genesis rebirth, naruto can use bunshins or speed to stop from even getting hit by it.



Kisame can't absorb that. Or rather, Samehada can't.

Jiraiya, sealing? Are you kidding? How is he going to open a scroll and press seals onto it when getting burned by flames?

Sasori won't be ejecting, he'll be burning. The fire spreads pretty quick, more so on wood so it'd hit the heart.


Sasuke can't use Genesis Rebirth.

Naruto hasn't the speed to dodge it.. Although, granted Kage Bushin can null it. But he's a high S class Shinobi



> Probably alot more, and after the counter or absorbtion is done, the user of amaterasu is holding his bleeding eye, panting waiting to get face raped.



No Ninja in the right mind would hole their bleeding eye in the middle of a fight. Also, notice they only use Amaterasu when fatigued?



> While you can spam giant rasengans and it doesnt give anywon time to use their specialties to react to it.



Lulz. You think Rasengan can be spammed and is faster than Amaterasu?



> Its biggest flaw isnt that sage mode users can only do it, if somewons in sage mode theyr most likely too fast for anywon to dodge it, its much larger than a person as well.



...No. *Sigh*. You can only use it if your in Sage Mode, everytime someone has entered SM. It was either prior to the battle or with great difficulty.


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## daschysta (Dec 8, 2009)

Gonhar said:


> Chidori which is a Raikiri is A rank same as Rasengan. And we haven't seen Raikiri wolf hurt anything yet so you can't really say its anything special. Kirin is the only S rank Raikiri we've seen so far I'm pretty sure.



Are you joking? Raikiri is S ranked kakashi advanced his beyond chidori.

And raikiri wolf is made from raikiri, makes sense that it would be s rank though well have to wait for a databook to confirm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jir667  
Ok 1. kakashi would not of killed him sorry, unless you can show me a feat of kakashi getting rid of something the size of kakuzu? an arm and a nail no body? 
2. you need alot of clouds for kirin or ama which sasuke just got? so he can't prep it normally
3.itachi only uses it when he's gonna die cause it kills him and its so slow that it can't attack you if you run back
4. pain wanted to get info so he couldnt destroy the village right away? also why destory a village when you dont need to? but pain also stated he would destory a village in an instant if he got his weapon, and allthey need to do is basicaly threaten to fight
5. he's never foughten anyone he needed to summon him against
6.again same with j-man only one person he really needed to summon him against
7.kakashi is not going to be kage imo
maybe a subsitute but tsunade will wake up and kakashi wouldnt be a good kage,
he doesnt like that kinda of work he's lazy
yamato would be a way better kage than kakashi/quote

deidaras explosion gg

so yeah he can do it.

He's done it and states he could have done it, that trumps anything to the contrary. kamui is an amazing jutsu thats just as broke as any other hax in the manga, yet for some reason people dont want to accept that kakashi can use it.


If you want to see how he would have used it against kakuzu I explained it earlier in the thread and backed it up.

respond to that if you want




lol really?
i know your a kakashi fan boy but your not serious?

I mean gai and kakashi can fight 1v1
and we all know kisame rapes gai unless he's 6th gate
That gaint water orb helps kisame who guess what?
breathes under water kakashi isnt fast enough of a swimmer to get out.
also kisame in that water is a god, also 6 shark jutsu bye kakashi. and also kakashi can't get rid of that much water period
and kisame got samehada from someone, so you wanna say no samehada 
kakashi doesnt get sharingan, now kakashi is just kinda strong


also as to this I wasnt contending that kakashi would suck up the water, just that he would kamui samehada which isnt completely unrealistic, and yes kisame is hot garbage without his sword.


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## Jir667 (Dec 8, 2009)

daschysta said:


> Are you joking? Raikiri is S ranked kakashi advanced his beyond chidori.
> 
> And raikiri wolf is made from raikiri, makes sense that it would be s rank though well have to wait for a databook to confirm
> Quote:
> ...



and kakashi aint shit with out his sharingan whats your point?
they both basically use a weapon from someone else to help them?
but kisame with out samehada would rape kakashi with out sharingan.
kisame with out using samehada's chakra stealing. still has tons of chakra. able to beat gai and rock lee with out gates, and ten-ten.


the explosion yes, but at the same time no.
the kamui was the same size as the one that took deidara's arm. and he didnt kill deidara with it.
but he was able to suck up the explosion? explain this to me?
i figure its able to suck up air and fire moving very fast. but its not able to suck up large ammounts of matter. 
hense why he couldnt take all of deidara, just his arm.



and also he never said i would of killed, he says i would of used kamui.
odds are it wouldnt of killed kakuzu.
so far him using it on a person it takes something the size of your arm.if he got a head shot maybe.

ok? if he kamui'ed samehada, he'd still lose in the water. so kisame still wins.


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## SpitefulSerpent5 (Dec 8, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> It doesnt burn through things quick enough for it to be uncounterable against an s-class shinobi, its also shown to be blocked or dodged so it doesnt follow you until it his you because raikage dodged it and that was the end of it. Kisame can absorb it, jiraiya can seal it, sasori can just eject into another body, sasuke can genesis rebirth, naruto can use bunshins or speed to stop from even getting hit by it. Probably alot more, and after the counter or absorbtion is done, the user of amaterasu is holding his bleeding eye, panting waiting to get face raped.
> While you can spam giant rasengans and it doesnt give anywon time to use their specialties to react to it.
> Its biggest flaw isnt that sage mode users can only do it, if somewons in sage mode theyr most likely too fast for anywon to dodge it, its much larger than a person as well.



Atlantic Storm has done a perfectly good job of refuting your points, but I don't see why you're so insistent as to this making Itachi inferior than Jiraiya. In the basis of how I was judging these characters - through instant kill moves that are nigh impossible to defeat without knowledge - Tsukiyomi is by far what makes Itachi the most dangerous. In canon, there have been only THREE ways to survive Tsukiyomi. To break through it with the sharingan or a superior doujoutsu, to have a second presence such as a bijuu break you free (and even then we aren't certain whether that was normal sharingan genjutsu instead of Tsukiyomi), or somehow be immune to genjutsu all together (like some believe Sasori to be).

Look at my list one more time, the top fighters all have moves that are literally unbeatable unless you have knowledge of their techniques or an ability that gives you knowledge as soon as you use them. The only exceptions are Rikudo, who is said to be - no question - the strongest shinobi ever, and Senjuu, who's feats can only have been accomplished by having more power than we've seen from nearly every other character in the series.

Madara has his MS techniques. Without knowing not to look him in the eye, you _will_ be caught.

Nagato in nigh unbeatable if you don't know he's not actually there. The only reason Konoha hasn't been destroyed is because his secret was realized. Oh, and he can summon a spirit that kills you when you *touch* it.

Itachi also has his MS techniques and is in the same boat as Madara. Oh, and let's not forget the magic sword that defeats you in one hit.

Sasori has his poison. I have yet to see a ninja in this series who as a matter of course takes care to not get one scratch on him. Chiyo and Sakura had nearly every precaution available and still ended up getting hit.

Orochimaru's snake form spews poison all around him, something no nin would be able to anticipate, since even his own damn apprentice got caught.

Deidara has _*MICROSCOPIC*_ explosions. Enough said.


You want to know why Jiraiya is ninth? Because I can't see him surviving Tsukiyomi, he's shown he can be hit by poison, and to the best of my knowledge he _breathes_ while fighting. Every move he has in his arsenal is a direct powerful move that anybody can see coming. If I see two frogs singing, or Jiraiya standing still in the middle of a fight, I know he's charging up something big and I'm running like crazy. If I see a big ass ball of chakra, I'm running like crazy. The closest thing he has to a move like the ones above is Frog Stomach, and I can see how every ninja above him on this list could escape that.

Jiraiya is strong, but ninjas fight through deception, and he has none of it. By always fighting on equal terms, he puts himself at a disadvantage that eliminates any possibility of him being considered stronger than anybody on that list. To be completely frank, he's not even in the Top 10, as I could easily count Salamander Hanzou - who Jiraiya admits as a known fact was stronger as well as Madara's Brother, who also had the MS and presumably Tsukiyomi. I disregarded them from the list because we've heard nothing about them, and decided to tie Jiraiya with "Prime" Sarutobi because I'm unsure about the latter's power.

Think about the realities of a fight and the techniques of these ninjas before preaching that Jiraiya was so incredible. He was a powerful ninja, but he was never top dog.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 9, 2009)

Like SS5. I also don't think Jiraiya is stronger than those listed Ninja.

He may have had a better showing, better reputation and a better death than them in the Manga, but that was only because he played a instrumental role.

Jiraiya is strong, yes. But he lacks that almost certainly kill in one. He is however, more versatile than the majority on the list. He has Yomi Numa, which can be used for a variety of purposes ranging from killing to holding people down so a certain attack can hit. A barrier that detects movement and shit. A large amount of summons which can be used for many different purposes. Such as making an entrance, defending or offense. Theres also Kage Bushin, which can be used for a lot of stuff too. I think Naruto's use of it has given us a good idea of what it's capable of. 

In Hermit Mode. He's capable of much much more. He has much more advanced jutsu in his repertoire. More power and speed to the point where he can "blitz" Human Realm and blind him with a kick. And durability, if Hermit Mode follows the same mechanics as Naruto's version does. His Taijutsu is further enhanced by Pa and Ma, who could throw in a Smoke bomb or two during a Taijutsu clash.

Despite all this, he lacks something. *A move that can definitely kill someone or is very broken that only a handful of people can tank, most likely due to some random haxx*.

Such as Deidara's C4. Anything that breathes is doomed, unless said person found out it's weakness and got out of it's range. This is only possible if said person has something like the Sharingan and had the means to get out of it's range. Otherwise, your screwed.

Or even Orochimaru's White Snake form. Technically, not an attack but it's still lethal. It's lethal on it's own, since it can regenerate and it's made of snakes capable of attacking and are poisonous. But it actually spews poison all around it upon contact, similar to Sasori's. But it's a gas instead. Once that's affected the opponent, Orochimaru can do whatever he wants. Like killing, taking over...rape...


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## Gonhar (Dec 9, 2009)

Well The Akatsuki Left Naruto alone for 3 years because Jaraiya was with him, that shows a lot of respect on there part, when even in 2 on 1 they weren't certain they could beat him. Also the only Reason Jaraiya Died vs pain was because he wanted to go back and make sure that the real one wasn't there he had the opportunity to escape and chose not to take it shows how powerful he was when he can escape someone like pain in his own town. 

Is he more Powerful than Itachi doubtful after seeing Sasoono but at the same time Jaraiya deserve's a lot more respect than most of the tops because atleast his Jutsu's didn't kill him slowly or instantly wear him out.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 11, 2009)

No, the reason was Akatsuki didn't want to stick out. Jiraiya knew of them, and if they tried confronting him to get to Naruto, it'll be bound to spread around. They weren't in a very stable position in P1, but in P2 once they were more stable, they could move around and collect Bijuu much more easily.


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## kry0n (Dec 16, 2009)

*Top 10 (Legendary)*

_Rinnegan_
0. Rikudou
1. Pain

2. Hiruzen
3. Hashirama
4. Madara
5. Minato 
6. Hanzou
7. Jiraya 
8. Itachi
9. Tobirama
10. Sakumo


*Top 20 (High Kage Level)*

11. Orochimaru 
12. Naruto
13. Killer Bee
14. Raikage
15. Kakuzu
16. Danzou
17. Sasuke
18. Mizukage
19. Sasori 
20. Sandaime Kazekage


*Top 30 (Kage Level)*

21. Tsunade
22. Kisame
22. Deidara
23. Tsuchikage
24. Gaara 
25. Gai
26. Kimimaro
27. Konan 
28. Kakashi 
29. Hidan
30. Zetsu


*Top 40 (High Level Jounin)*

31. Chiyo
32. Kabuto 
33. Asuma
34. Yamato
35. Fuu
36. Torune
37. Juugo
38. Suigetsu
39. Hiashi
40. Shikaku


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 16, 2009)

Good list. I just have a problem of Kurenai, Suigetsu, Juugo, Omoi, Zetsu, Tsuchikage, Tsunade and Sandaime Kazekage's placements on that list.

There are plenty of people stronger than Kurenai, Suigetsu and Jugo.

Omoi, Zetsu and Tsuchikage lack feats.

Why the hell is Tsunade higher than Gaara and Deidara?

Sandaime Kazekage doesn't even HAVE feats. He's a puppet.

Oh well, it's not my place to question your opinion.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 19, 2009)

This is the true list, and there will be no disputing it:


1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Uchiha Madara (current)
3. Uchiha Itachi/Namikaze Minato
4. Uchiha Itachi/Namikaze Minato
5. Raikage
6. Pain Rikudou
7. Sasori
8. Hoshigaki Kisame
9. Killer Bee
10. Uzumaki Naruto
11. Uchiha Sasuke (Hebi)/Deidara
12. Uchiha Sasuke (Hebi)/Deidara
13. Uchiha Sasuke (Taka)
14. Sarutobi Hiruzen
15. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
16. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
17. Senju Hashirama
18. Maito Gai
19. Tsunade
20. Kakashi


I omitted characters we know very little about (Zetsu, Konan, Uchiha Madara [young], etc) and non-person entities (the Bijuu, boss summons, Samehada ).

About Shodai, because I know somebody's going to complain about how low his placement is and call bollocks on me placing him below Madara...I would like to justify his ranking by saying that we don't know how he won his fight with Madara. It could've been anything. We don't know. Also, despite Madara's apparent implications, he has shown a lot more impressive shit currently than he has in his youth. Whereas the young Madara would charge into battle screaming and wielding a fucking fan, today's Madara makes sport of Jounin-level ninjas and stood _at least_ on equal footing with Uchiha Itachi. By comparison, Shodai's Edo Tensei was fairly babyshaken in its fight with old man Sarutobi, who outside of Shiki Fuujin had only a couple B-Rank Ninjutsu and Taijutsu that would make even Deidara fall over with laughter. Sorry, but I just don't see it. Until it's shown how Shodai won and why exactly Madara considers himself a "shell" of what he once was, I can't for the life of me accept that young Madara was stronger than current Madara, and that Shodai was even stronger than that. It just doesn't fit with what we've seen.


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## kry0n (Dec 19, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Good list. I just have a problem of Kurenai, Suigetsu, Juugo, Omoi, Zetsu, Tsuchikage, Tsunade and Sandaime Kazekage's placements on that list.
> 
> There are plenty of people stronger than Kurenai, Suigetsu and Jugo.
> 
> ...


Who are stronger than Kurenai, Suigetsu and Juugo?

They rly lack feats, but I did @ hype

Yeah, imo Tsunade (Sannin) is stronger than them, did you see what she did on Pain's invasion? She focused on protect the village instead of fighting, and that was a HUGE ace @ HUGE Chakra. We didn't see her real 1v1 powers yet, but I hope she can handle many that below her

Sandaime Kazekage was the strongest ninja from the Sand Village ever. Sasori just killed him cause of the puppet's poison


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## Panos (Dec 19, 2009)

kry0n said:


> *Top 10 (Legendary)*
> 
> _Rinnegan_
> 0. Rikudou
> ...



fail list is fail list.

I do not know where to begin from? O h yeah. Pain above everyone.


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## kry0n (Dec 19, 2009)

Its ONLY...

YOUR opinion


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## Panos (Dec 19, 2009)

kry0n said:


> Its ONLY...
> 
> YOUR opinion



Fortunately i never said that it was my neigbours opinion.


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## kry0n (Dec 19, 2009)

Anyway, it's still ONLY your poor opinion


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## Luxiano (Dec 19, 2009)

0 Rikudou Sennin ( not debatable )
[ 1 Naruto and Sasuke ( End-manga )  ]
2 Hashirama and Madara
3 Nagato 
4 Minato
5 Itachi
6 Raikage / Hiruzen
7 Sasori
8 Jiraiya / Orochimaru
9 Killer Bee
10 Mid tier Aka members ~ Kisame
ect ... 

I'll edit later maybe.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 21, 2009)

Raikage stronger than Pain ? Than fucking Pain ?


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## kry0n (Dec 21, 2009)

Your ranking is the most wierd here, realize it


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 21, 2009)

I'm not actually going to make a list of 20 because of all the possible placements and the difficulty of actually placing them so I'm going to pick the top 4 Ninjas that come into mind. I'm not just going to place them on pure power, I'm going to place them on leadership skills, power and hype.

_*1: Shodaime/Hizuren Sarutobi Prime

*Shodaime once stood at the top of the Ninja world. In a time that is much stronger than the modern world due to it being in a time of War. Plus there were the Uchihas, individual Ninjas in the modern time may be stronger, but overall I'd say the Ninjas back then were stronger. Now, where was I? Oh yeah, he also has Mokuton and a powerful Genjutsu. His Genjutsu caught Sarutobi, who had a top tier Genjutsu. Also, his Mokuton had apparently made the foundations of Konoha. He was able to tame *Bijuus* with this ability, and once he established Konoha. He would soon give them away to attempt to establish a balance, this shows his leadership abilities.

*2: Shodaime/Hizuren Sarutobi Prime

*Hizuren Sarutobi has numerous jutsu, and knows which jutsu suits the terrain. He was once known as "Professor" due to his apparent vast knowledge of Konoha's jutsu. His other, better known, title "God of Shinobi" showed he was also at the top of the Ninja world. But unfortunately, his time was not as strong as Shodaime's due to it not being in a time of constant wars. Also the abscene of a few clans such as Senju and a few Clan's blood being duliated such as the Uchihas. However, he is still extremely powerful. He was able to outmatch the Nidaime and Shodaime(Edo Tensei) in a Taijutsu clash even in his old age. Enma even stated he was nothing compared to his prime, his biggest weaknesses were perhaps his speed, strength and stamina. All these were nonexistent in his prime, this perhaps make him one of the most well rounded Ninjas. His ability to lead a country for so long, and being able to shift in immediatelly after Minato's death shows that the village respects him.
*
3: Minato

*I only placed him in number three due to his lack of feats and the fact he never reached his prime. He was been praised by Jiraiya several times. He created three extremely powerful jutsu. Shiki Fuujin, a S class jutsu that drew upon the power of a death god to turn a losing battle into a stalemate. However, this jutsu requires physical contact, which may be hard or impossible against certain people. But, this can easily be solved by Hirashin. This jutsu is a space/time jutsu, one of the four ones shown within the Manga(the other three being Kuchiyose, Kamui and Madara's jutsu). It let's the user instantly teleport to the opponent's location as long as there is a seal placed on him. His third jutsu, Rasengan was already a lethal jutsu to begin with, but combined with Hirashin it is a truly lethal jutsu. This jutsu would soon become the basis of Fuuton: Rasenshuriken, Chidori and the often forgotten Fuuton: Rasengan. He had a flee on sight from Iwagakure in the Third(?) Ninja war. He's shown to be a very intelligent person too, he planned ahead sixteen years after his death. Not much information on this guy, so I could only judge him on his hype and what we already knew about him.

*4: Itachi Uchiha
*(Finally a person with feats)

Itachi was extremely powerful and intelligent. He was very proficient in Genjutsu. So good that a lot of people on this Forum call him the "Genjutsu King". His eye Genjutsus are nearly unavoidable without a certain style that only Gai was proficient in, but there was his finger Genjutsu. Which caught Naruto, despite him having full knowledge. Despite his abysmal stamina, he is capable of Bushin feints. However, unlike other feints performed by Naruto and Kakashi, two things can emerge from his. The possibility of a Bushin explosion which would most likely instantly kill the victim or the Karasu Bushin turns into crows and catches the opponent within his well known Genjutsu. Also, he's shown to be extremely fast. Capable of clashing with Sasuke in Taijutsu while weaving signs for a Kage Bushin. Something else to note is that during P1, his seals were impossible to see through by Kakashi who had his Sharingan on. His intelligence and ability to plan, is most likely the best in this list. His ability to use jutsu and when/how to use them is amazing, such as his usage of shurikens to deter Kakashi from finding his true purpose. Which was to use a Suiton, then proceed to stab him in the back. He, and he alone discovered that contray to what everyone else thought, Madara was still alive(boo). He planned all of Sasuke's life, even his fight. While ill, nearly blind and holding back he was capable of pushing Sasuke to his absolute limit. I think it's safe to say this is a valid feat for both his ability to plan AND overall ability.

The strongest technique within his repertoire is his Mangekyo Sharingan. One eye controls Tsukuyomi. A Genjutsu, perhaps the ultimate Genjutsu, which is capable of breaking anyone's fighting spirit. Anyone that doesn't have a powerful Sharingan or complete control of his Bijuu. His other eye contains Amaterasu. Black flames, said to come from hell itself(). It is almost certain to kill the opponent, unless he/she has a very powerful defense, very high speed, some sort of armour or a advanced replacement technique. This jutsu also follows the target and won't stop until it hits him/her. 

His third jutsu. Susanoo. It creates a manifestation of a poorly drawn Tengu God, by itself it already provides good protection. But it has the Yata Mirror Shield, which is said to be able to block any jutsu(base Susanoo blocked Kirin) and it has the sword of Totsuka. Which seals the victim() into a eternal Genjutsu upon contact. The jutsu already formed completely before Kirin hit the ground.

*Notable mentions: Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto Uzumaki, Kakashi Hatake, Raikage, Orochimaru, Killer Bee, Pain(he would've been on the list, but his description would've been much too long)
*_


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## ? (Dec 21, 2009)

Yagami1211 said:


> Raikage stronger than Pain ? Than fucking Pain ?


who said something so  worthy?


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## Maerala (Dec 21, 2009)

kry0n said:


> Sakumo was stated to have surpassed the sannins, I still edited my list, sakumo is ahead the sannins, itachi etc now



Sakumo died when he was in his late twenties or early thirties. The Sannin were over fifty years old when Kishimoto disposed of them. Pretty sure he's not above them at their current level. Young Sannin didn't even have their ultimate jutsu yet, and most likely their summons either.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 22, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Only uchitards believe that dude, everywon with common sense knows hes not in minatos league.



Says who? You?

Give me a break.

We don't even know anything about how strong Minato actually is; we know he has Rasengan, Shiki Fuujin, and Hiraishin. And he's pro at using Shunshin. Frankly, he hasn't actually shown us anything that puts him anywhere near Itachi's level; 90% of that assumption comes from his hype, not his feats. So don't act like it's some kind of common knowledge that Minato is superior to Itachi, when no such comparison or display of power has been given on his behalf.



Yagami1211 said:


> Raikage stronger than Pain ? Than fucking Pain ?



I don't see why that's so outrageous. Not like anything in Pain's arsenal can put a fuckin' scratch on the guy. Or tag him, for that matter.

As long as Raikage avoids taking Chou Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei, he should be fine.



kry0n said:


> Your ranking is the most wierd here, realize it



According to who? You? You don't exactly have a lotta room to talk, you know?

I'm still trying to fathom Mizukage being stronger than Deidara or Tobirama being stronger than Raikage. Seriously. Talk about featless done-nothings... And it's not like you put them at a reasonable level, either. You put them above guys who are high-tier/top-tier in their own right. For absolutely no reason at all.



Inu said:


> who said something so  worthy?



Holla. 



Godaime Hokage said:


> Sakumo died when he was in his late twenties or early thirties. The Sannin were over fifty years old when Kishimoto disposed of them. Pretty sure he's not above them at their current level. Young Sannin didn't even have their ultimate jutsu yet, and most likely their summons either.



They did have their summons. One chapter cover (I forget which) depicts the Sannin as children with animals of their affinities.

Then again, the same can be said for Team 7 in another, much earlier chapter, way before ANY of them got their summons (Sakura still doesn't have any, lol). So take that with a grain of salt, I guess.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 22, 2009)

I'd say Minato is in the same league as Itachi. Either that, or higher simply because of his hype.

We have little to judge him on other than the fact he created three extremely powerful Ninjutsu, showing his genius abilities. His amazing reaction speed which is said to be in comparison to the Raikage's and his ability to plan ahead(even if it WAS just a fail safe). We don't have a lot to measure the guy with, so the most we can use is hype.

Itachi on the other hand.

He's also a genius, has shown much better planning abilities than Minato. As seen with his planning Sasuke's childhood, post massacre and his entire fight. Whilst fighting off a disease, being watched by Madara and trying not to be exposed by Akatsuki. He's shown excellent Genjutsu abilities that would catch most people off guard, even with knowledge. As seen with Naruto. Even with knowledge, they would have a hard time without observing their fingers or eyes as they wouldn't know what the shit they were doing and would get stabbed quite early on in the battle. Then there's his 3 Mangekyou jutsu. Tsukuyomi is just a extremely deadly Genjutsu that no one apart from Sasori(?), a Jinchuriki who has full controll of his Bijuu(Yondaime Mizukage and Killer Bee) or a person with a powerful Sharingan/Mangekyou. The jutsu itself lasts for a few seconds, giving Itachi the time to simply chop off the opponent's limbs. It also breaks the user's fighting spirit(Databook). His second jutsu, Amaterasu. His most overrated and underrated jutsu at the same time, severely underrated due to the fact Karin and some Samurai tanked it. These two feats themself do not change the fact that Amaterasu burned through a toad retardent wall, kept up with Sasuke CS2 or the fact that in not a very long time grew into a massive fire. In contrast to Minato, Itachi has much more feats to measure his abilities with.

Can you REALLY blame Nikushimi for comparing the two?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 22, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'd say Minato is in the same league as Itachi. Either that, or higher simply because of his hype.
> 
> We have little to judge him on other than the fact he created three extremely powerful Genjutsu, showing his genius abilities. His amazing reaction speed which is said to be in comparison to the Raikage's and his ability to plan ahead(even if it WAS just a fail safe). We don't have a lot to measure the guy with, so the most we can use is hype.



Minato created three Ninjutsu, not three Genjutsu.



> Itachi on the other hand.
> 
> He's also a genius, has shown much better planning abilities than Minato. As seen with his planning Sasuke's childhood, post massacre and his entire fight. Whilst fighting off a disease, being watched by Madara and trying not to be exposed by Akatsuki. He's shown excellent Genjutsu abilities that would catch most people off guard, even with knowledge. As seen with Naruto. Even with knowledge, they would have a hard time without observing their fingers or eyes as they wouldn't know what the shit they were doing and would get stabbed quite early on in the battle. Then there's his 3 Mangekyou jutsu. Tsukuyomi is just a extremely deadly Genjutsu that no one apart from Sasori(?), a Jinchuriki who has full controll of his Bijuu(Yondaime Mizukage and Killer Bee) or a person with a powerful Sharingan/Mangekyou. The jutsu itself lasts for a few seconds, giving Itachi the time to simply chop off the opponent's limbs. It also breaks the user's fighting spirit(Databook). His second jutsu, Amaterasu. His most overrated and underrated jutsu at the same time, severely underrated due to the fact Karin and some Samurai tanked it. These two feats themself do not change the fact that Amaterasu burned through a toad retardent wall, kept up with Sasuke CS2 or the fact that in not a very long time grew into a massive fire. In contrast to Minato, Itachi has much more feats to measure his abilities with.



Don't forget Susano'o. Man, even with the massive power upgrades being thrown around in the Narutoverse lately, that's still a Jutsu that dominates virtually without exception in the NBD.



> Can you REALLY blame Nikushimi for comparing the two?



They're also very similar. Minato died to empower Naruto, Itachi died to empower Sasuke (and also Naruto, with that crow ). Minato sealed the Kyuubi with an epic Fuuinjutsu, Itachi sealed the Yamata no Jutsu with an epic Fuuinjutsu. Minato kept Madara's hands off Konoha, Itachi kept Madara's hands off Konoha. Minato was stated to be stronger than Orochimaru, Itachi was stated to be stronger than Orochimaru (by Orochimaru, lol). Minato saved Konoha from destruction by the Kyuubi, Itachi saved Konoha from destruction by the Uchiha clan. They both gave their lives to protect Konoha and their respective legacies (Naruto and Sasuke).

They both did some great shit and they were both regarded as genius ninja that are only seen once in a lifetime. So I think it's perfectly reasonable to treat the two as similar in power, no matter which one you lean more to.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 22, 2009)

It's kind of sad that we never saw the two go all out. Or in Minato's case, fight.


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## ? (Dec 22, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Holla.


ehh, can't really say i'm surprised  

but no, raikage is below nagato level.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Says who? You?
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> ...



Hiraishin and rasengan alone puts him above itachi. Amaterasu gets countered by hiraishin, susanoo gets countered by hiraishin, minato isnt going to be in one place long enough for itachi to cast tsukiomi on him. He is outclassed by that 1 jutsu.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 22, 2009)

So why does Rasengan put him above Itachi? Pre Timeskip, Pre Fuuton training and Pre Sage training Narutos all had Rasengan, did that put him above Itachi? No. One jutsu alone does not put anyone above anyone. It's the skill that matters. 

Also, how would Hirashin counter Susanoo? It's not like Hirashin is going to destroy it or anything, also if Minato teleported. The Sword of Totsuka could simply be aimed for that place, Minato can't teleport forever and that sword is pretty big so.


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## ? (Dec 22, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> Hiraishin and rasengan alone puts him above itachi. Amaterasu gets countered by hiraishin, susanoo gets countered by hiraishin, minato isnt going to be in one place long enough for itachi to cast tsukiomi on him. He is outclassed by that 1 jutsu.


never thought i would say this, but you may be underrating itachi, by a tad bit


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## Dexion (Dec 22, 2009)

A non-biased top-20.


*1)Rikkudou / Sage of the Six Paths*
_pretty self explanatory, he created the narutoverse basically, the sharingan and byakugan also spawned from his rinnegan._

*2)Madara Uchiha*
_Even though he was defeated by Hashirama he still exists today albeit in a less than worthy form. Eternal Mangekyou, Space/time control_

*3)Hashirama Senju*
_The only one who had the power to defeat Madara and the 9 tailed beast which was is the most powerfull bijuu. He was however defeated later on in his life whereas Madara is still alive. Was able to control bijuu like pets and has excellent control of Moukton. Also was a genjutsu expert._

*4)Nagato*
_Almost brought to the end of his life at the hands of Naruto however his power over life and death are not to be underestimated. Also the ability to manipulate other bodies with his own life force is a true feat indeed._

*5)Hiruzen Sarutobi*
_Exalted as the god of ninja in the prime of his life. The student and successor to Hashirama Senju & Tobirama Senju, possesses the death God sealing technique._


*6) & 7)Itachi  & Minato* 
_I tied them because they both have extremely strong gifts but I would not think they can beat a prime Hiruzen. Itachi for obvious reasons, genjutsu expert, Amaterasu, Susano'o with celestial items.

Minato created rasengan and can most likely use it to its fullest extent. Has movements faster than even sharingan would be able to keep up with. Death god sealing technique.  For those of you who think Itachi and Minato aren't in the same tier... wake up *they are*_

*8)Naruto Uzumaki*
_With his sage mode and the 9 tails inside of him. Naruto has some pretty impressive feats. Master of sage mode, incredible durability, strength, and speed. Also while not a genius he is very smart in combat situations and is able to develop ways to overcome physical roadblocks._

*9 & 10)Orochimaru/Jiraiya*
_Orochimaru basically has near physical immortality, Genjutsu expert, summoning expert, has the cursed seal. Has Edo Tensi which can bring back anyone from the dead given the requirements are met.

Jiraiya has all the toad summons at his disposal. Can go into sage mode/hermit mode. Has a plethora of jutsu to help him out during a battle, very versatile fighter._

*11)KillerBee*
_Has the next strongest bijuu in his possession next to Naruto. Has high-tier speed and power. Immune to genjutsu_

*12)Raikage*
_Top tier speed and power, high resilience to genjutsu, fast enough to evade the sharingan._

*13)Sasuke Uchiha*
_Subdued Orochimaru even though he was weak. Has Mangekyou Sharingan. Great control over Amaterasu, also has Susanoo. The gap from Naruto to Sasuke is VERY slim_

*14)Kisame*
_Huge chakra pool, has control over samehada provided it does not turn against him._

*15)Hatake Kakashi*
_Possesses Sharingan and is able to use Mangekyou Sharingan to open a hole to another dimension. <- That power alone puts him above others listed below._

*16)Deidara*
_Powerful bombs at his disposal, can stay in the air and fight opponents at a comfortable distance_

*17)Kakazu*
_able to sew together bodyparts. Has 5 lives and can use all elements. Has strong durability_

*18) Guy Maito*
_Able to go 7 gates and wreck havoc on anyone who he wants to target. Has better than normal strength. Can fight just by reading foot movements_

*19)Tsunade Senju*
_Has excellent chakra control, super strength, also can't be struck out by normal blows in battle thanks to her healing ability and rejuvenation._

*20)Hidan*
_Can kill someone just by getting their blood. Doesn't seem to feel pain. I put him at the bottom of this list since he really cannot beat anyone above him without a partner. One blow to the head and he'll be annoyed but useless._


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## Angoobo (Dec 22, 2009)

Dexion said:


> A non-biased top-20.
> 
> 
> *1)Rikkudou / Sage of the Six Paths*
> ...



How is Madara>Hashirama,Minato<Madara and Minato=Itachi??


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 22, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> How is Madara>Hashirama,Minato<Madara and Minato=Itachi??



It depends. Hashirama was using bijuus in battles, without them he would maybe lose to Madara, who knows. 

And I agree with the Madara > Minato part. That´s if we´re talking about prime Madara, I guess we are.


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## Dexion (Dec 22, 2009)

yes everyone is in their prime.... I'm actually contemplating putting Itachi above Minato.


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## Big Mom (Dec 22, 2009)

Not in any order:

Orochimaru
Kisame
Hiruzen(prime)
Sasuke
Naruto
Jiraiya
Minato
Nagato
Madara
Itachi
Konan
Deidara
Sasori


1) Sage of Six Paths
2) Hiruzen Sarutobi(prime)
3/4) Shodai/Tobirama
5/6)Onoki(prime)/Madara(prime)
7/8) Minato
9) Itachi(prime)
10)Orochimaru
11) Kisame
12) Konan
13) Sasori
14) Deidara
15) Kakuzu
16) Tsunade
17) Kabuto
18) Kakashi
19) Gai
20) Hidan

Unknown placement- Kakashi's father, Kabuto(orochimaru's remains)


EDIT- Genno(filler ninja) makes it to the top 5, but his placement after that is unknown.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 22, 2009)

Inu said:


> never thought i would say this, but you may be underrating itachi, by a tad bit



I mean in a situational sense, all of itachis moves drain the fuck out of his stamina and if hes missing minato with them hes going to pretty much kill himself. He doesn't have the stamina to put up much of a fight. Its a very mismatch kind of thing.


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## Elite Uchiha (Dec 22, 2009)

I say Itachi (healthy) and Minato were almost equal. Minato might have been a bit stronger but there in the highest tier possible.

Seriously, no one could beat Madara. They both failed at it. Only if they reached their prime would they have been able to actually *beat* rather Madara than only foiling his plans.

That is where Naruto and Sasuke come in I guess.


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## S H A R D (Dec 23, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Says who? You?
> 
> I don't see why that's so outrageous. Not like anything in Pain's arsenal can put a fuckin' scratch on the guy. Or tag him, for that matter.


oowwie.... Im just gonna leave this for you to ponder over again



> As long as Raikage avoids taking Chou Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei, he should be fine.


A simple dodging maneuver would handle this>
He cant avoid chibaku's gravatation, you seen how big it is?



DarkRasengan said:


> susanoo gets countered by hiraishin


??, he can only run dude. The susano'o is armed with totsuka and yata, so basically yondaime would just have to avoid and evade until itachi's chakra is done. And you've gotta explain the rasengan bit man



Dexion said:


> A non-biased top-20.
> 
> *11)KillerBee*
> _Has the next strongest bijuu in his possession next to Naruto. Has high-tier speed and power. Immune to genjutsu_


After a complete defeat against Kisame (and it was a true defeat, the sword was jus being a bitch, but it was really raikage that saved his life) I would rank Kisame higher than Bee




> *14)Kisame*
> _Huge chakra pool, has control over samehada provided it does not turn against him._


I still cant believe that blasted sword did that. Son of a...




> *20)Hidan*
> _Can kill someone just by getting their blood. Doesn't seem to feel pain. I put him at the bottom of this list since he really cannot beat anyone above him without a partner. One blow to the head and he'll be annoyed but useless._


Hidan is incredibly dangerous, but he doesn't belong here at all. Sasori would horrendously disgrace him in battle, as would most of the akatsuki. I would of put The Red Sands in his place


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## Gnome (Dec 23, 2009)

1. End of Series Naruto
...the rest doesn't matter


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## Gonhar (Dec 23, 2009)

I see a fight between Minato and Itachi being epic neither one is gonna beable to poof your dead the other, It would come down to knowledge and trickery. First to make a mistake or run out of chakra dies.


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## Bloo (Dec 23, 2009)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Seriously, no one could beat Madara.



Why do people keep overrating madara, he's powerful as hell but not invincible. Even madara admitted that even he would have been dead if itachi knew everything about him.

But to reply to the mentions of the strength between minato and itachi. Most of minatos strength is his hype. He hasn't shown much, actually hardly anything to prove he's as strong as we've heard he is. And if anyone says that his rasengan would make that much of a difference it really doesn't.


*I know that this is chidori, but they are still the same basic attack. If he could block it that easily he could simply avoid it.


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## Aggressor (Dec 23, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Madara Uchiha
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Hiruzen Sarutobi
6. Nagato/Pain- If you have the six paths of pein up I think Nagato could be included so this isn't necessary.
7. Tobirama Senju
8. Sasuke Uchiha- You put Sasuke infront of Itachi when he doesn't possess the Tsukyomi and whos still has his sharingan less developed that Itachi
9. Naruto Uzumaki
10. Itachi Uchiha
11. Jiraiya
12. Raikage
13. Killerbee
14. Kisame Hoshigaki
15. Orochimaru
16. Danzo
17. Kimimaro Kaguya- He would probably be in the top 50 but really his this high, there are people like Deidara, Sasori and Tsunade. Who would be much more deserving of this position.
18. Hanzo
19. Kakuzu
20. Jugo- Juugo isn't deserving of this, theres people way better than him. Tsunade, Yamato, Gai even people like Neji and Sakura would be better than Juugo. 


Your list is extremely inaccurate, I don't see people like Minato, Tsuande, Deidara, Sasori, Konan, Chiyo, Kabuto, Zetsu, Gaara, Sakumo.


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## Rock lee rumble (Dec 23, 2009)

I CARN'T BELIEVE IT LOOOL  Some fools actually think that madara is stronger than shodai loool when he clearly states many times that he looks up to shoadai and was defeated by him many times. When madara though he beat shodai with the 9 tails this is what happened

and itachi says himself that madara is just a shadow of his former self, so he's not better than he was back then.
If you arsk me i'd say
sage of 6 paths
pain (this includes all forms)
then maybe hanzo but from here on it's all debatable. Also S H A R D I know your a kisame fan but bee was slightly stronger, maybe kisame could have even beaten bee's full transformation but he hasn't shown any feats that can so bee is stronger.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Dec 23, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> Why do people keep overrating madara, he's powerful as hell but not invincible. Even madara admitted that even he would have been dead if itachi knew everything about him.
> 
> But to reply to the mentions of the strength between minato and itachi. Most of minatos strength is his hype. He hasn't shown much, actually hardly anything to prove he's as strong as we've heard he is. And if anyone says that his rasengan would make that much of a difference it really doesn't.



Madara is the strongest in the manga now. Itachi couldnt beat him nor could Minato. We all know that Pain > Jiraiya but Jiraiya would have won if he knew his secret. Being a ninja is about keeping your secrets.


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## αce (Dec 24, 2009)

Ok Madara can force a tie with anyone.

Anyone.

Name me one person alive that Madara couldn't force a tie with.


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## KakashiOfTheSharingan (Dec 24, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> you dont have to agree
> i know this has probably been done before, i wa just interested in eveybody's views, heres my list:
> 
> 1.   Sage of the Six Paths
> ...



1.R S
2.Shodai
3.Madara
4.Nagato
5.Minato
6.Sarutobi
7.Jiraiya/Itachi
8.Jiraiya/Itachi
9.Orochimaru
10.Naruto
11.Raikage/Bee
12.Raikage/Bee
13.Sasuke
14.Mizukage/Tsuchikage/Danzou/Kakashi
15.Mizukage/Tsuchikage/Danzou/Kakashi
16.Mizukage/Tsuchikage/Danzou/Kakashi
17.Mizukage/Tsuchikage/Danzou/Kakashi
18.Kisame/Tsunade
19.Kisame/Tsunade
20.Sasori


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## MrHayashi (Dec 24, 2009)

1)Shodai
2)Rikudo Sennin
3)Nagato
4)Hiashi
5)Gai
6)Neji
7)Kakuzu
8)Yamato
9)Mizukage
10)Tsuchikage
11)Killer Bee
12)...
13)...
...


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 24, 2009)

MrHayashi said:


> 1)Shodai
> 2)Rikudo Sennin
> 3)Nagato
> 4)Hiashi
> ...



Neji got stronger, I see. LOL.


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## kry0n (Dec 25, 2009)

*The Badass*

0.  @ 8 gates 
1. Rikudou
2. Pain

*Legendary*

3. Hiruzen
4. Hashirama
5. Madara
6. Minato 
7. Hanzou
8. Jiraya 
9. Itachi
10. Orochimaru 
11. Tobirama
12. Sakumo

*Kage Level*

13. Naruto
14. Killer Bee
15. Raikage
17. Danzou 
16. Sasuke  
18. Sasori
19. Tsunade 
20. Kakuzu 
21. Mizukage
22. Sandaime Kazekage
23. Tsuchikage
24. Kisame 
25. Deidara
26. Gaara 
27. Kakashi 
28. Konan
29. Zetsu

*Jounin*

30. Gai 
31. Kimimaro 
32. Kabuto
33. Chiyo
34. Hidan
35. Asuma
36. Yamato
37. Fuu
38. Torune
39. Neji
40. Kurenai

Obs.: only the most relevants in my list


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 25, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Ok Madara can force a tie with anyone.
> 
> Anyone.
> 
> Name me one person alive that Madara couldn't force a tie with.



Hashirama


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 25, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Hashirama



He said alive, and current teleporting madara would slaughter hashirama.


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## Big Mom (Dec 25, 2009)

Proof DarkRasengan? How do we know that MAdara couldn't teleport before?


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## ? (Dec 25, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> He said alive, and current teleporting madara would slaughter hashirama.


proof that he didn't have his teleporting back then, or is this just a theory?


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## Angoobo (Dec 25, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> He said alive, and current teleporting madara would slaughter hashirama.



Yeahhashirama destroyed both EMS Madara and Kyubi,so did Minato.


----------



## Crusnik07 (Dec 25, 2009)

First post <3
Okay, about Kisame... In a one-on-one battle, and if his sword wasn't such a chakra whore =P, i don't see how it's possible for anyone(excluding kage level or w/e) to beat him without hacks.... Discuss/Explainnn plzz


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 26, 2009)

Inu said:


> proof that he didn't have his teleporting back then, or is this just a theory?



In the new fanbook kishi said "*current* madara has the ability to teleport and phase through objects,what does being a shadow of his former self really mean"


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## ? (Dec 26, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> In the new fanbook kishi said "*current* madara has the ability to teleport and phase through objects,what does being a shadow of his former self really mean"


and where did it say he didn't have it back then? still waiting for proof...


----------



## Dexion (Dec 26, 2009)

I put Madara ahead of Hashirama because only one of them is alive today. Hashirama died in battle afterwards.


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## God (Dec 26, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Nagato/Pain
4. Madara Uchiha
5. Minato Namikaze
6. Hanzo
7. Hiruzen Sarutobi
8. Tobirama Senju
9. Jiraiya
10. Raikage
11. Killerbee
12. Danzo
13. Itachi Uchiha
14. Sasuke Uchiha
15. Orochimaru
16. Naruto Uzumaki
17. Kakuzu
18. Kisame Hoshigaki
19. Jugo
20. Kimimaro Kaguya


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## S H A R D (Dec 27, 2009)

Inu said:


> and where did it say he didn't have it back then? still waiting for proof...



There is no proof, your right. His space-time jutsu is obviously a mastered kamui (theres no proof for that, but its just too logical) compliments of EMS. Madara had EMS from back in the day thus meaning he fought hashi with this technique



DarkRasengan said:


> He said alive, and current teleporting madara would slaughter hashirama.



Goodness me. Madara himself admits to being a shadow of his former self, and his former self got defeated by Hashi, so explain how he would destroy hashi now??


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## Rock lee rumble (Dec 27, 2009)

Michael Jacksőn said:


> 1. Sage of the Six Paths
> 2. Hashirama Senju
> 3. Nagato/Pain
> 4. Madara Uchiha
> ...




Most of the stuff there you got quite right accept orochimaru is stronger than sasuke. Jiraiya was defeated by orochimaru so how can there be a 5 person difference between them ?? ​


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 27, 2009)

Because A>B>C logic doesn't work in the Narutoverse.

Orochimaru may be stronger than Jiraiya, but overall Jiraiya is the better Ninja. 
(I'm referring to what he thinks not my opinion).


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## Rampage (Dec 27, 2009)

Michael Jacksőn said:


> 1. Sage of the Six Paths
> 2. Hashirama Senju
> 3. Nagato/Pain
> 4. Madara Uchiha
> ...



Itachi below Raikage, Killer Bee and Jiraiya?
Kimi and Jugo above Gai?


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## cry77 (Dec 27, 2009)

top 10..

10.kakashi
9.deidara
8.kisame
7.kakuzu
8.sasori
7.itachi
6.hiruzen (old)
5.tobirama
4.hashimara
3.hiruzen (prime)
2.nagato/madara
1.farmer with shotgun


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 27, 2009)

_Why is Hizuren(old) so high in that list?

Everyone in that list except maybe Tobimara and maybe Shodai would defeat him with minimal ease. _


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## Kanki (Dec 27, 2009)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. 1st Hokage
3. Madara
4. 4th Hokage
5. Pein
6. 3rd Hokage
7. Hanzo
8. Sakumo (white fang)
9. Jiraiya
10. Itachi
11. Raikage
12. Orochimaru

Just my opinion...


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## dankness69 (Dec 28, 2009)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> changing my list slightly sorry
> 
> 1.   Sage of the Six Paths
> 2.   Madara Uchiha
> ...



how r u going to put kimimaro above kakuzu


----------



## Koroshi (Dec 28, 2009)

Question:

Does this thread even belong here in the BD. It seems more of a ranking thread more so than a Battledome thread


----------



## PikaCheeka (Dec 28, 2009)

Nikushimi said:


> Because she has no feats other than trolling a near-death Sasuke. Acid-spit isn't enough to put her above the likes of Kakuzu, Deidara, and Kisame, all of whom possess building-level destructive ability or greater. Kakuzu has diamond-level+ durability and building-busting force behind a single punch, Deidara can nuke entire villages casually, and Kisame went toe-to-toe with Killer Bee up until Hachibi V2 mode. Nothing Mizukage has done even puts her on the same level as these guys.



This.

There's an awful lot of Mizukage hype all over these forums that I am really not understanding. She hasn't done enough to warrant the belief that she's in the top 20 most powerful ninja at all. I'd like to see her in several more fights with characters of varied talents for more than two panels at a time before I'm going to say she's omg-amazing. 

And seriously, this is Naruto we're talking about, and this is a female character we're talking about. I know people are probably just excited to see a chic doing something, but when it comes down to it, she probably can't do shit.


----------



## Rock lee rumble (Dec 28, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> _Why is Hizuren(old) so high in that list?
> 
> Everyone in that list except maybe Tobimara and maybe Shodai would defeat him with minimal ease. _



???? If shodai can't beat Hizuren minimal ease then madara couldn't either. ​


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## Koroshi (Dec 28, 2009)

Rock lee rumble said:


> ???? If shodai can't beat Hizuren minimal ease then madara couldn't either. ​



That was an Edo Tensei Shodai, which of course is definitely more weaker compared to the real Shodai.

A>B>C logic does not apply in the Narutoverse.


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## Prowler (Dec 28, 2009)

&. Shodai
&. Naruto
&. Sarutobi
&. Itachi (prime) 
&. Jiraiya
&. Orochimaru (prime) 
&. Minato
&. Madara (prime)
&. Danzou (maybe)
&. Pain


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## Rock lee rumble (Dec 28, 2009)

Koroshi said:


> That was an Edo Tensei Shodai, which of course is definitely more weaker compared to the real Shodai.
> 
> A>B>C logic does not apply in the Narutoverse.



Ok didn't know that it was edo-tensai shodai. ​


Kakashi Is God said:


> 1. Sage of the Six Paths
> 2. 1st Hokage
> 3. Madara
> 4. 4th Hokage
> ...



Orochimaru is one of the most strongest people we've seen in naruto, so how can he be 12 :amazed:amazed . he has shi* like this 

He should be much higher in the ranks !! ​


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 28, 2009)

12 is pretty good, considering there's only 20. And the list is made up of the most Elite people in the Narutoverse


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## Angoobo (Dec 28, 2009)

Rock lee rumble said:


> Orochimaru is one of the most strongest people we've seen in naruto, so how can he be 12 :amazed:amazed . he has shi* like this
> 
> He should be much higher in the ranks !! ​



No,he's being overestimated,he shouldn't even be in the list (Tobirama,Izuna,Onoki,B,naruto,Sasuke...)


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 28, 2009)

Wait, what?

You think Tobimara and Onkoi can beat Orochimaru?

Nothing Tobimara has could cause lasting damage on Orochimaru and Onkoi has shown to lack mobility. One of his jutsu is a powerful cube that goes in one direction and his other requires physical contact.


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## Rock lee rumble (Dec 28, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> No,he's being overestimated,he shouldn't even be in the list (Tobirama,Izuna,Onoki,B,naruto,Sasuke...)



HA HA !! So in your point of view summoning the most strongest fighters in konoha that can't die unless you seal them away forever, being able to summon this

and not being able to die unless you seal his soul away isn't worthy of being in naruto's top 10 fighters   :rofl  you need to sit down and meditate on this in your spair time. What's sasuke gonna do to orochimaru ? unlike itachi sasuke can't seal oro away. Sasuke's susano'o can only stab punch and slam, which are useless when it comes to oro, look what he has come out from



there's no way that just susano'o without that sword that itachi has is enough to kill oro. And while sasuke it draining his chakra using sasno'o oro can summon yamata no orchi which will end sasuke. Also sasuke's amertarasu unlike itachi's is immuture, it doesn't spread like itachi's does

if you look raikage's had his arm in amertarasu for ages and it hasn't spread. If he hits oro with it oro can either come out of his own body like this

or like this


sasuke can't keep shooting amertarasu but oro can come out of his body in more than one way, and it doesn't seem to effect his chakra or anything. Also i don't even need to mention things like edo-tensai and manda.​


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## Angoobo (Dec 28, 2009)

^^yeah, army of mindless zombies that takes a hell of time to summon is a great jutsu
Besides,Oro doesn't have infinite chakra(he has average chakra as far as his stats are concerned),and yamata no orochi needs great chakra to maintain for a long period(even if that wasn't the case,the technique is so overrated).
So to say that Oro is one of the 20 strongest shinobi(i forgot to mention Tsunade who has everything to beat Oro)is rididculous.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 28, 2009)

_-Edo Tensei-
-Leech all Creation-
-Oral Rebirth-
-Manda-
-Kusanagi-
-White Snake-_

How on earth does Hiruzen beat Boss Summons?


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## Satamino (Dec 28, 2009)

just making top 10
1. Sage of the six path (wath a surprise)
2. Madara
3. Nagato (owns more than naruto )
4. Kakuzu
5. Itachi
6. Sasori
7. Naruto (he did defeat the pains O.o)
8. Oro
9/10. Kisame (dont really know here)
10/9. Raikage


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## Sadgoob (Dec 28, 2009)

_You can not match this power no matter how talented you are. The Jyubi is overwhelming, and is scores more powerful than the Kyubi. Rikodou performed amazing feats with its limitless stamina._

*Rikodou*

_Hashirama controlled the majority of Bijuu as well as a Mokuton that made Yamato's massive power look pitiful on top of Genjutsu that left the Saindaime Hokage helpless._ 

*Hashirama*

_Madara had Tsukiyomi, Amatarasu, Susano, the Kyubi, and a final technique of the Eternal Mangyekou Sharingan. The Kyubi alone puts him above Negato let alone being a beefcake version of Itachi._

*Madara*

_Pein is a beast, I'm not going to dance around that point. Six incredible ninjas in one perfectly coordinated package. He took over in Minato's absence as the benchmark who would best Naruto while handicapped and then give his life for blah blah blah. _

*Pein*

_Minato is unexplored, but we know that his three techniques were pretty insane. Rasengan, teleportation, and the Death God in suicidal circumstances. He is Naruto's primary benchmark and left him a Key Jutsu and Kyubi to surpass him._

*Minato*

_Itachi is unexplored, but all of his techniques were insane even outside of the Genjutsu. His clones either exploded and killed you or burst in to a bunch of crows that could also put you in Genjutsu. The Sword of Totsuka and Mirror of Yata just put him over the top. He is Sasuke's primary benchmark and left him his techniques and his eyes for the Eternal Mangyekou Sharingan to surpass him._

*Itachi*

_Naruto is pretty insanely powerful at the moment as he can summon an entire village of frogs as back up, has incredible Wind Ninjutsu, and harbors the fiercest Bijuu. Once he controls his Bijuu and unlocks that Key Jutsu he will have truly surpassed his father and fast approaching Hashirama._

*Naruto *

_Sasuke literally just now become incredibly deadly with the addition of Hawk Summons. He still has Tsukiyomi, Amatarasu, Susano, and now he can buy the time and distance with his summon and Genjutsu to set up Kirin or mow people down with his elemental Ninjutsu. Once he awakens the Eternal Mangyekou Sharingan and lets go of his hatred [and actually thinks in battle] he will have surpassed Itachi and be approaching Madara._

*Sasuke*

_I am convinced that Orochimaru is the most powerful Sanin and his only weakness seems to be [aside from arrogance] absolutely insane Genjutsu or Fuinjutsu. He can summon the undead to assist him, become an invincible Hydra, summon Manda, extend Kusanagi, become a White Snake, and he has done all this without having a true debut fight like his rival. I believe he will return and prove to us that he is the greatest of the Sanin although Sasuke surpassed him when he 'shed his scales and became a hawk.'_

*Orochimaru*

_Jiraiya is incredibly versatile force. With Ma and Pa at his aid he can summon scores of large toads. He has many useful Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and showcased the devastating Hermit Mode. Naruto succinctly surpassed him with Sage Mode, but Jiraiya's experience makes him a deadly foe all the same._

*Jiraiya*

_I believe Killerbee would lose to a lethal Jiraiya or Orochimaru with all of their unexplored knowledge and adaptability coming to mind. Orochimaru clearly demonstrated he was unafraid of Bijuu and I believe that with their summons and Ninjutsu they could over come the Hachibi as that's implied to be his most powerful state. Note that I don't believe Kisame is dead nor do I believe that he in possession of Samehada._

*Killerbee*

_Kakashi is going to be buffed very, very soon as the author indicated that this year is aimed towards his development and I imagine him becoming Kage. With Kamui, he is deadly, but I believe he will achieve Killerbee's level and remain with him._

*Kakashi*

_Kisame more or less owned Killerbee without even using deadly force. I can't even express how mindnumbing that feat is. However, I don't believe he is dead at the moment, but he likely will be soon enough and I imagine Killerbee being able to squeeze out on top. Kisame lacks versatility._

*Kisame*

_Sasori is an absolute beast. If you touch one of his weapons, you die. He shoots iron beams at you at incredible speeds. If they scrape you, you die. He can switch between puppet bodies at will and is incredibly analytical. You need overwhelming power to contend with him._

*Sasori*

_Hiruzen lacks any methods of defeating Boss Summons or certain special techniques. He also lacks knowledge on the majority of opponents above. He really can't touch any of these powerhouses and only discovered the Death God technique well past his prime._

*Hiruzen*

_The Raikage is a panzer that moves like lightning. Nuff' said. I don't believe he has the versatility or intelligence needed to defeat the opponents above, however._

*Ei*

_No hype, no feats, but he's Hashirama's brother and tangled with the Uchiha clan at their strongest. I imagine he's fairly versatile and basically a skewed Kakuzu who focuses on speed and Suitons_

*Tobirama*

_Very powerful, but needs to be in the air to be so. His suicide technique is even better than Minato's. Deidara would be much, much higher up if he weren't so vulnerable on the ground against elite opponents._

*Deidara*

_Similar to Deidara, Gaara is very powerful but situationally so. He is hugely buffed when he has a great deal of sand to work with, but when he's stuck with his gourd, elite opponents can likely take advantage of the fact and eliminate him._

*Gaara*


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 28, 2009)

Haha, amen to that. But how would Hiruzen defeat anyone above him? His only claim to fame is that he was said to be the strongest of the Five Kages in his prime. Well, that's not really saying all that much considering this is a list of the greatest shinobi to ever walk the earth and I'm not seeing any of those competitors on it. Can you imagine Killerbee in _KN6_ or Kakashi using _Kamui_ to warp away people in those days? They would certainly be called "gods".


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 29, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> I dont think we really should, because all the bijuu today are sealed somehow.



What's wrong with counting them as part of Shodai's power? He could tame them and have them battle alongside him - just like how Kiba has Akamaru fight alongside him and together with him utilize combo attacks. Of course, Akamaru's techniques are counted as part of Kiba's performance, as in this case, he counts as not an extra teammate but a weapon. Doesn't Samehada count as part of Kisame's power, although it can indeed turn on him? Or Sharingan part of Kakashi's although it isn't his own? 

And Illusory, why do you have Bee so low on your list? Even without the Samehada, he should still be above Sasuke, as Hachibi stated that even while not going all-out the entire time, Bee was capable of beating him even with his newly awakened MS. And it's obvious in the Kisame fight thast he was stronger than even HM Jiraiya and Orochimaru by a massive amount, especially in Hachibi Mode. Lastly, with the Samehada, and a possible fusion, putting him below even Pain is a huge mistake.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 29, 2009)

SpitefulSerpent5 said:


> For the purposes of this list, I'm going to state these rankings based on how these characters would usually fight others, meaning that the element of surprise will usually take effect. Many characters become increasingly dangerous when one doesn't have knowledge of their skills, in particular, Sasori and the MS users. I will also be ranking on each characters "Prime" condition. The Itachi we saw fight was dying and blind, and didn't even want to win. The Sarutobi was old and obviously restricted by chakra. Being "Prime" will include their abilities to use their strongest techniques, such as Edo Tensei and Nagato's rape techniques.
> 
> Honestly don't know where Nidaime and Hanzou would fit in this, so I'm not including them.
> 
> ...



Your list idea is interesting - but I far from agree with most of it. Naruto as well as Sasuke are ridiculously low on this list. Nagato should not be above Shodai with his army of Bijuu. Neither should Madara - he is far weaker than what he was capable of originally. And in any case, he did lose to Shodai before, whatever you say.


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## Big Mom (Dec 29, 2009)

Ninja whose power is far beyond others:

Nagato
Hiruzen(prime)
Orochimaru
Danzo
Madara
Shodai
Onoki

Questions-

Didn't NAruto state the Tobirama was better at fighting than Shodai?


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Questions-
> 
> Didn't NAruto state the Tobirama was better at fighting than Shodai?



No, he did not. Tobirama has no hype. This is all:



> Tobirama was primarily known for his mastery of Water Release jutsu, being able to make use of powerful water jutsu in areas where there were no bodies of water. He could manipulate it to form projectiles or tentacles, and could even perform the Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique with only one hand seal


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 31, 2009)

IIRC, this was stated in the second Databook. Entry can be found in the character list thread.


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## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Ninja whose power is far beyond others:
> 
> Nagato
> Hiruzen(prime)
> ...



I'm just curious, why danzo? I mean we don't even know his power.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

I just can't believe how underrated Itachi is in this forum ()

1. Sage of the six Paths - no reason.

2. Itachi. Why? Main reason: even Madara said in one of the recent episodes that Itachi could have killed him if he wanted. Other reasons: he's the pride of the proud Uchiha - said by the old Uchiha. He's as smart as Shikamaru, if not smarter. He has the two legendary items; Sword of Totsuka (Orochimaru searched for it his whole life) and Mirror Shield that exactly nothing can pass. He has the three strongest jutsus and wanted by Madara:

Tsukuyomi - it's abilities is by far the best in Naruto world. Less than a second in the real world is more than 72h in Tsukuyomi world. The strongest Genjutsu.

Amaterasu - undodgeable and the fire from the sun.

Last but definitely not least: Susano'o. Shouldn't explain anything here.

------

2. Madara Uchiha - Even the great Minato said he stood no chance against Madara.

3. Pain - Yes, Madara is either as strong as Pain or just a little bit stronger. There's a reason why Madara never wanted to try taking Pain's eyes...

4. Minato - No explanation.

5. Hashirama

6. Naruto and Sasuke

7. Sakumo and Sannins.

8. Kages

9. Kirabi.

10. Raikage.
...


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 1, 2010)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> you dont have to agree
> i know this has probably been done before, i wa just interested in eveybody's views, heres my list:
> 
> 1.   Sage of the Six Paths
> ...


No, I definitly disagree on a few of your rankings
Im excluding The Sage Of Six Paths and Hanzo though as their skills are determined merely by hype

1)Hashirama Senju
2)Madara Uchiha
3)Minato Namikaze
4)Hiruzen Sarutobi(In his prime)
5)Nagato/Pein
6)Naruto Uzumaki
8)Tobirama Senju
9)Jiraiya
10)Itachi Uchiha
11)Orochimaru
12)Raikage
13)KillerBee
14)Danzo
15)Sasuke Uchiha
16)Sasori
17)Deidara
18)Tsunade
19)Kisame Hoshigaki
20)Kakuzu

Thats how I see it..


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## ? (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> 2. Itachi. Why? Main reason: even Madara said in one of the recent episodes that Itachi could have killed him if he wanted.


scan please   

the hype itachi gets around here is just hilarious.


----------



## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

Sarutobi was the most powerful hokage. Remember that.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat, I have reason to believe you are on a smear campaign.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Why don't you go re-watch the two recent episodes and pay attention to what Madara thought. He clearly said (he thought): Itachi could have killed me if he knew the truth about me.

What was Madara's truth? Madara's truth is the knowledge of Itachi. Madara knew that Itachi was ordered to kill Uchiha, but Itachi didn't know that Madara knew that.

This makes Itachi automatically stronger than Madara, because even Madara himself said that Itachi could kill him if he really wanted.

Please answer these questions:

- Why did Pain attack Konoha right after Itachi died?
- Why did Madara say "Now when Itachi's dead, nobody can stop me."
- Why did Madara talk to Sasuke right after Itachi died? He could have talked to him earlier.
- Why did Madara order Pain to attack Konoha after Itachi died or when Itachi was battling against Sasuke?

Too obvious.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Why don't you go re-watch the two recent episodes and pay attention to what Madara thought. He clearly said (he thought): Itachi could have killed me if he knew the truth about me.



In the Battledome, Manga before Anime. Remember that.

And no, I don't think you should listen to the word of a 100 year old man with a orange mask that plots on taking over the world and is willing to manipulate anyone to achieve his goal.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> In the Battledome, Manga before Anime. Remember that.
> 
> And no, I don't think you should listen to the word of a 100 year old man with a orange mask that plots on taking over the world and is willing to manipulate anyone to achieve his goal.



-.-....

Madara THOUGHT THAT, he was thinking. He didn't say it to Sasuke directly. While speaking to Sasuke about Itachi, he thought that sentence. Get real, I can give you the manga page if you don't believe me.

What people don't realize is that Itachi is the ultimate and true shinobi. Why?

True shinobi:

He was ordered to massacre his own clan and he did it - and that stopped the fourth great shinobi world war. That makes Itachi a true shinobi.

Ultimate:


He has 2 of 3 legendary items (totsuka and shield), he's the pride of the proud Uchiha, the most gifted Uchiha and every uchiha was gifted, one of the smartest if not the smartest character.

There's much more.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Ninja whose power is far beyond others:
> 
> Nagato
> Hiruzen (prime)
> ...



I think that's a bit more accurate in my opinion. Possibly Tsunade too.


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## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

Illusory said:


> I think that's a bit more accurate in my opinion. Possibly Tsunade too.



why would hiruzen be removed?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 1, 2010)

Duykur said:


> why would hiruzen be removed?



I just can't imagine him beating anyone else on that list.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Lmfao at the people putting Onoki. What have he showed us? Not killing a very very chakra-less Sasuke? Omg.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 1, 2010)

Zetsu restored Sasuke's Chakra before hand and he had partial Susanoo on.


----------



## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

Illusory said:


> I just can't imagine him beating anyone else on that list.



He was the most powerful hokage that ever lived, that means he should be higher than any of the other hokages


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## Sadgoob (Jan 1, 2010)

Duykur said:


> He was the most powerful hokage that ever lived, that means he should be higher than any of the other hokages



Not according to Madara whose opinion I trust more than Iruka.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> -.-....
> 
> Madara THOUGHT THAT, he was thinking. He didn't say it to Sasuke directly. While speaking to Sasuke about Itachi, he thought that sentence. Get real, I can give you the manga page if you don't believe me.
> 
> ...



Anime has nothing to do with the manga. Also Jiraiya would have beat Pain if he knew Pain's secret but we all agree that Pain > him.


----------



## DremolitoX (Jan 1, 2010)

Rikudo Sage
Madara
Raikage
Pain
Itachi
Killer Bee
Naruto
Sharingan Whore
Jiraiya
Kisame
Kakashi
Konan

You get the gist of it.


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## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

Illusory said:


> Not according to Madara whose opinion I trust more than Iruka.



but he defeated the the 2 hokages and almost killed ori


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Do you really think that Hiruzen, in that old state, could defeat both Hashirama and Tobirama? It's obvious that they wasn't in full power or Kishi just balanced the fight~


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 1, 2010)

I think it's safe to say, even if they were powered down, by feats Hizuren is stronger than the two Hokages.


----------



## ? (Jan 1, 2010)

Duykur said:


> but he defeated the the 2 hokages and almost killed ori


what would hiruzen do against multiple bijuu?


----------



## DarkRasengan (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Do you really think that Hiruzen, in that old state, could defeat both Hashirama and Tobirama? It's obvious that they wasn't in full power or Kishi just balanced the fight~



I think he could, if they were mindless zombies they wouldnt be able to use jutsu, they also had a buff of being invulnerable so they were probably more powerfull then they were alive. It's said that hiruzen was stronger than the first hokage, the only real power shodai had was bijuu control which is useless when there are non around.


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## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Do you really think that Hiruzen, in that old state, could defeat both Hashirama and Tobirama? It's obvious that they wasn't in full power or Kishi just balanced the fight~



they where full full power and they couldn't be killed normally. Thats the power of Impure World Resurrection


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## Big Mom (Jan 1, 2010)

Kages:

1/2)Hiruzen Sarutobi/Danzo
3/4) Hashirama/Madara
5) Onoki
6) Minato
7)Raikage
8) 3rd Kazekage
9) Tobirama
10) Gaara
11) Tsunade

These are ninjas that have actually demonstarted something.

Akatsuki:

1) Madara
2) Nagato/Pain
3) Orochimaru
4) Kisame
5) Konan 
6) Deidara
7) Sasori
8) Itachi
9) Kakuzu
10) Hidan
11) Zetsu


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## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Kages:
> 
> 1/2)Hiruzen Sarutobi/*Danzo*
> 3/4) *Hashirama/Madara*
> ...



The what? xD Danzo, that dude who is going to be taken out by Sasuke, is stronger than Hashirama, Minato and Madara? That´s cool xD

And Konan being higher than the best Suna shinobi ever (Sasori) and Itachi, that´s interesting too I have to say


----------



## Big Mom (Jan 1, 2010)

SharinganSkill said:


> The what? xD Danzo, that dude who is going to be taken out by Sasuke, is stronger than Hashirama, Minato and Madara? That?s cool xD
> 
> And Konan being higher than the best Suna shinobi ever (Sasori) and Itachi, that?s interesting too I have to say



You don't know for a fact that Danzo will be taken out by Sasuke. And Danzo was Hiruzen's equal, EQUAL meaing of the same power. The same, etc.

And how will sasori or Itachi defeat Konan? Itachi has a highe chance though cause Sussano can block the attacks. But he will run out eventually.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 1, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think it's safe to say, even if they were powered down, by feats Hizuren is stronger than the two Hokages.



You mean the two Hokages who were specifically stated to be toying with him? The two who were simply punching him repeatedly when he was hopelessly caught in Hashirama's Genjutsu?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> And how will sasori or Itachi defeat Konan? Itachi has a highe chance though cause Sussano can block the attacks. But he will run out eventually.



Genjutsu, Katons, Suitons, Sealing, or just plain outlasting her.


----------



## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

LOL! Just get konan wet and she's done! People saying Konan is stronger than Itachi and Sasori should get a gun and pull the trigger on your head! Itachi can use suiton, just get the ho* wet and she's done!

Katon > Paper.

And you putting Kisame over Itachi is plain stupid... KISAME SAID HIMSELF THAT HE'S NOWHERE NEAR ITACHI. rofl.


----------



## Infinite Xero (Jan 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> You don't know for a fact that Danzo will be taken out by Sasuke. And Danzo was Hiruzen's equal, EQUAL meaing of the same power. The same, etc.



LoL, Danzou was NEVER Hiruzen's equal. They were rivals, and politically at that.



Illusory said:


> Not according to Madara whose opinion I trust more than Iruka.



Manga Scan please (preferably non-Sleepyfans). I only  Madara calling Hashirama the Greatest Ninja of his time (and only his time).


----------



## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> And how will sasori or Itachi defeat Konan? Itachi has a highe chance though cause Sussano can block the attacks. But he will run out eventually.



How will Itachi, the *katon* user, defeat an opponent, who can change herself to small *papers*?

Also, it doesnt matter that much. Weaker guy can defeat stronger opponent (bad matchup). That doesnt mean I´m saying Konan would win, not at all. But you say Konan is overall stronger than Sasori, I´m not sure about it ...


----------



## Maerala (Jan 1, 2010)

SharinganSkill said:


> How will Itachi, the *katon* user, defeat an opponent, who can change herself to small *papers*?
> 
> Also it doesnt matter that much. Weaker guy can defeat stronger opponent (bad matchup). But saying Konan is overall stronger than Sasori, I?m not sure about it ...



Katon doesn't work on Konan's paper, which is infused with chakra. That was already proven by Jiraiya's Katon. Sasori, however, could use his puppets' weapons to rip all the little pieces of paper apart, killing Konan.


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## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Katon doesn't work on Konan's paper, which is infused with chakra. That was already proven by Jiraiya's Katon. Sasori, however, could use his puppets' weapons to rip all the little pieces of paper apart, killing Konan.



Must have missed that. Even so, if katon wont work, suiton will do the trick. That has Jiraiya proved as well (water, oil, doesnt matter, same result).


----------



## Bloo (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Katon doesn't work on Konan's paper, which is infused with chakra. That was already proven by Jiraiya's Katon. Sasori, however, could use his puppets' weapons to rip all the little pieces of paper apart, killing Konan.



I'm sure an amaterasu would be a completely different story.


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## Big Mom (Jan 1, 2010)

That was simply because Konan was distracted. She would be more alert when fighting someone she has no bond with.

Also, Hiruzen and Danzo were considered equals, but political power? wtf?


@Itachithegreat- no comment. your not worth words.

@3spn- Amarestu is argumently the worst jutsu on her. Amerestu burns until its completly dinigrated the whole object. If Konan is paper, and it ignites it, only 1 piece of paper would go(or how many is caught in the blast). Or, if she is whole and gets hit, seperate.


----------



## Koroshi (Jan 1, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Katon doesn't work on Konan's paper, which is infused with chakra. That was already proven by Jiraiya's Katon. Sasori, however, could use his puppets' weapons to rip all the little pieces of paper apart, killing Konan.



Actually it does work, as seen  bottom-left panel. We can clearly see at the back of Konan, some of her paper still burning or turning to ashes. 

She has slight defense against it seeing as how she can separate her body, but she is definitely not totally immune to Katon.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Rikudou makes it to the top of everyone's list now.
> 
> 0. Juubi Rikudou
> 1. The Rikudou Sennin.
> ...



Still stick to mine, more or less; few changes though.


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## itachi52496 (Jan 1, 2010)

*dude...whoa*

dude no.......every thing on that list is correct but the fact that naruto is above itachi is ludicris.........itachi shoul be right there under uchiha madara.....itachi kicks ass....not because im a fan...but because he does....it can kick 1st.2nd,3rd(older not youger...ypunger id own),4rth, and tsunade....okay....and basically,there are only two people that can beat otachi....ive gotten into sixteen previous battles on this topic....im not chewing you out and i know that....but madara and pein(Nagato) are the only...ONLY!!!!!!!....two people that can subdue, kill, beat down, own, pwn, and kick ass on itachi......good list thogh but the 2nd on the list is kinda wrong as well.......ohhhh and the six path sage can kick itachis but too.....even though kakashi graduated way earlier...kakashis skittles(Skills) are nothing compared to itachi.......itachi has talent...kakashi trained for that talent....nice talkin to ya


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## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2010)

itachi52496 said:


> every thing on that list is correct but the fact that naruto is above itachi is ludicris........



But you said everything on the list was correct


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## Bloo (Jan 2, 2010)

itachi52496 said:


> naruto is above itachi



Narutos more understandable than zetsu


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## God (Jan 2, 2010)

Rock lee rumble said:


> Most of the stuff there you got quite right accept orochimaru is stronger than sasuke. Jiraiya was defeated by orochimaru so how can there be a 5 person difference between them ?? ​



jiraiya was never defeated, he was holding back remember

and orochimaru's not stronger than sasuke



uzumaki lee said:


> Itachi below Raikage, Killer Bee and Jiraiya?
> Kimi and Jugo above Gai?



yes, itachi is below those three

i only used the characters in the op


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## Judecious (Jan 2, 2010)

1.rikiduo sennin
2.hashirama
3.madara
4.minato
5.pain
6.hiruzen
7.second hokage
8.hanzo
9.jiraiya
10.itachi
11.naruto
12.killer bee
13.raikage
14.danzo
15.sasuke
16.orochimaru
17.tsunade
18.sasori
19.kakashi
20.mizukage


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## princevincent724 (Jan 2, 2010)

1.Tsunade
2.Orochimaru
3.Kakashi
4.Naruto
5.Pein 
6.Sasuke
7.Sakura
8.Yondaime
9.Mizukage
10.Itachi
11.Jiraiya
........................ so lazy to continue


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## Maerala (Jan 2, 2010)

^ I suspect you of stuff.


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## Big Mom (Jan 2, 2010)

Cubey said:


> jiraiya was never defeated, he was holding back remember
> 
> and orochimaru's not stronger than sasuke
> 
> ...




care to explain how sasuke>oro or do you just want to state it? i want a good laugh...tell me.


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## Federer (Jan 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> care to explain how sasuke>oro or do you just want to state it? i want a good laugh...tell me.



Care to explain why you think that Orochimaru is more powerful than Sasuke? Who only doesn't have basic Sharingan genjutsu, but also his MS genjutsu, Amaterasu and Susano'o?

Orochimaru couldn't even beat a basic sharingan genjutsu.


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## Big Mom (Jan 2, 2010)

Juracule Mihawk said:


> Care to explain why you think that Orochimaru is more powerful than Sasuke? Who only doesn't have basic Sharingan genjutsu, but also his MS genjutsu, Amaterasu and Susano'o?
> 
> Orochimaru couldn't even beat a basic sharingan genjutsu.




Sure. Sasuke used Susano'o for like 10 minutes followed by 1 amateraseu, and he was already done. Oro will be able to dodge those hits.


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## Lord Potato (Jan 2, 2010)

Ok, I will do my list (I wont include Sage of the six path)

1.Nagato (He was going so easy on Naruto and Deva path was not at full power at the beginning)

2.Uchiha Itachi (The reason i put him so high is ONLY a sharingan user can beat him, it was said by Itachi but Pein is above Itachi because Rinnegan is a stronger version of Sharingan. Itachi also have a completed Susano'o with his Shield and Sword)

3.Uchiha Madara (Prime) (Well if he has the Kyuubi with him, he is number one)

4.Namikaze Minato (Very fast, considering to Kishi's interview, Minato and Hiruzen are the dead shinobis but that interview is quite old now, Pein was alive during that interview)

5.Hiruzen (Prime) (Like i said above)

6.Uchiha Sasuke (Mastered the MS just like Itachi)

7.Hashirama Senju (When Orochimaru summoned him, he wasn't all that great, Hiruzen and Minato is stronger than him said by Kishi)

8.Naruto  (He could maybe take Hashirama)

9.Jiraiya (Almost mastered Sage Mode and he gave trouble to Pein)

10.Orochimaru (One of the Sannins and he is powerful)

11.Kisame or Killerbee (Both of them didn't go full power when they fought)

12.The five Kages, Sasori, Kakuzu and Tsunade

13.Kakashi and Tobirama (I put him above Deidara because Kakashi because he has Lighting, MS and Genjutsu, Sasuke had only Genjutsu, Lighting and defeated Deidara)

14.Deidara

15.Hidan

16.Konan

17.Might Gai

18.Elder Chiyo (Third Kazekage is probably stronger than her and maybe some of them above but we didn't see him in person so i can't put him on the list)

19.Zabuza

20.Kabuto


I maybe missed someone.


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## Big Mom (Jan 2, 2010)

Karl said:


> Ok, I will do my list (I wont include Sage of the six path)
> 
> 1.Nagato (He was going so easy on Naruto and Deva path was not at full power at the beginning)
> 
> ...



Wheres Onoki? He fought Madara? Hes still alive, etc.


Also, Kabuto couldn't die by a sword. But Zabuza could die by a chakra blade.


Also, Tobirama was stated by naruto to be > than his bro. So...

Also, Tobirama can create water from any where and master it. He is > than Kisame and most likley has a lot of chakra to  create water from thin air. So how long do you think before Kakashi's chakra is out from sharigan? 5 minutes?


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## hidame (Jan 2, 2010)

Gaara should be up there atleast... I mean, he is the Kazekage. But then again he did get beat by Deidara, but he is still pretty good 



> The Closer You Get To Something, The Tougher It Is To See It All.


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## SharinganSkill (Jan 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> So you think Minato has more feats than Hiruzen?



No, I said there that in my opinion Minato has shown feats that were more impressive. Hiruzen has more or less shown Shiki Fuujin (great technique, but sacrifising yourself in every fight is not the right way), Kage Shuriken, some katon and dotons (and he had a summon). I?m sure he had some great techs, but he hasnt shown them. On the other hand, Minato has shown Hiraishin, which is pretty impressive.


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## Big Mom (Jan 2, 2010)

SharinganSkill said:


> No, I said there that in my opinion Minato has shown feats that were more impressive. Hiruzen has more or less shown Shiki Fuujin (great technique, but sacrifising yourself in every fight is not the right way), Kage Shuriken, some katon and dotons (and he had a summon). I?m sure he had some great techs, but he hasnt shown them. On the other hand, Minato has shown Hiraishin, which is pretty impressive.



Minato's jutsu- summoning jutsu(toad boss), rasengan, flying thunder god, sealing jutsu

Hiruzens- summoning(monkey boss), sealing, fire dragon, shuriken shadow clone, mud wall, shadow clones, and a lot more in the anime

Hiruzen's jutsu just seem to be far more difficult to perform considering how they require more power.

Mud wall can either be large or small depending on the chakra/power given to it.

Fire dragon missles can vary from a normal fire to a white firey large consuming flame. 

Shuriken shadow clone is a tricky one. It forces you to combine shuriken with the shadow clone jutsu. It would be a hard jutsu to master considering how you must transfer your chakra to something else, non-living.  

Transfering chakra to a living being is harder becuase while a living being can help with he flow of chakra to one person to another(through physical contact), the shuriken are(once thrown) no where near your body, thus you must send your chakra through the air, into the shuriken which doesn't have a chakra flow/system, and replicate it. But once, is a feat in it self, but more than five times, is a hell of a lot of feats. 


But, compare that to the f.t.g jutsu. 

You must first place a seal on any object(lets take a kunai for an example). You must transfer your chakra to you fingers. There, you place your fingers on the kunai. You focus your chakra into ink which is the formed into words onto the kunai. The ink is rather peculiar as it seems to dry rather quick considering it doesn't come off/run when thrown. The kunai is then thrown at your foe. Next, you use your chakra to trigger the seal, wether this is by send your chakra onto the seal or just by the seal's reaction to the hand sign is anyonbe's guess. But then, the body is broken up into atoms which are teleported at super speeds across to the kunai's location. The atoms are put back in their oppropraite areas, and you re materilaze back. The tricky part is performing the hand signs so fast, so you can appear at the right moment.


Rasengan, focusing your chakra into your hand to actual show your chakra, making it visable. Shown to be hard to perform.


Using your chakra to transform itself from chakra to fire. Then, usleasing it without burning yourself from your mouth. Same form mud axcept you must solidfy it as well.


Hiruzen's seem harder to perform IMO.   And don't get me started on wielding the staff.


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## SharinganSkill (Jan 2, 2010)

OFFTOPIC: Sorry for that. Can anyone show me some statement where is said Rinnegan can see chakra? I´m not sure about it and I would like to see some proof (better something official like databook). Thanks a lot.


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## Big Mom (Jan 2, 2010)

SharinganSkill said:


> OFFTOPIC: Sorry for that. Can anyone show me some statement where is said Rinnegan can see chakra? I?m not sure about it and I would like to see some proof (better something official like databook). Thanks a lot.




So I write a whole LONG ass post, and all you can say is "can i have a link please?" do you want fries too?

Ontopic: I skipped over the whole pein invasion arc. I would If i could. sorry/


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## Lord Potato (Jan 3, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Wheres Onoki? He fought Madara? Hes still alive, etc.
> 
> 
> Also, Kabuto couldn't die by a sword. But Zabuza could die by a chakra blade.
> ...



Man i said the five kages were equals, FIVE KAGES that's including Onoki and Kisame with Samehada can breath underwater, i doubt Tobirama can because he is just a normal human. And maybe the five kages is not equals but i place them in the same place. Wait wait are you saying that Tobirama>Hashirama? LOL. Give me the page that it says that omg.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 3, 2010)

> Quote: From tomorrow, you are...the Hokage...!!
> (Note: He uses "kisama", which is a derogatory form of "you".)
> 
> Black: Wild fighting spirit! The raging firey man who inherited Shodai's will!
> ...



Databook 2, link found . Give credit to Chainer and Hiroshi for putting the list together.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2010)

That likely isn't a comparison to Hashirama. I have a superior writing ability, but that doesn't mean that my writing ability is superior to yours, Atlantic. No one has ever mentioned the second of the Leaf, and why should they? His older brother was gifted with powerful natural ability while he made due with Taijutsu and Suitons. But thank you for the link!


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## Big Mom (Jan 3, 2010)

Karl said:


> Man i said the five kages were equals, FIVE KAGES that's including Onoki and Kisame with Samehada can breath underwater, i doubt Tobirama can because he is just a normal human. And maybe the five kages is not equals but i place them in the same place. Wait wait are you saying that Tobirama>Hashirama? LOL. Give me the page that it says that omg.



It was in an omake at the end of a naruto shippuden episode. Also, whats stopping Tobirama from using the water to create a giant water dragon, or something else?


Also, Kisame could breathe under water when he wasn't fused. Then, he was a normal human. So why can't the water master do the same?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Also, Kisame could breathe under water when he wasn't fused. Then, he was a normal human. So why can't the water master do the same?



Because Kisame has gills.


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## Big Mom (Jan 4, 2010)

Illusory said:


> Because Kisame has gills.



Not that I don't believe you, but can you show a picture of Kisame's gills? (a real picture, not fan made.)


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## Lord Potato (Jan 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> It was in an omake at the end of a naruto shippuden episode.



In episode 2 (shippuuden)? Nope they didn't say that he was stronger than Hashirama they said that Tobirama had the best Combat ability of the Hokages or maybe in the whole world.

And I'm not 100% that Kisame can take Tobirama.


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## Ech?ux (Jan 5, 2010)

My list is as of the most recent chapter I've read.. (477 as of right now)

1. The Rikudou Sennin.
2. Prime Madara
3. Itachi 
4. Hashirama
5. Naruto/Sasuke (In my eyes, it's a toss up)
6. Minato
7. Killer Bee
8. Pain
9. Kisame
10. Kakuzu

Top ten is all I'm doing. More notable choices could be Kakashi, Raikage, Gaara, but I feel like my top ten list is the best I could come up with at this point.


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## Naruto1992Lover (Jan 6, 2010)

1) Rikudou sennin (Sage of sixth paths)
2) Senju Hashirama
3) Uchiha Madara
4) Minato
5) Nidaime Hokage
6) Danzou
7) Raikage
8) Killer Bee
9) Naruto
10) Pain
11) Danzou
12) Uchiha Itachi
13) Kisame
14) Sasuke
15) Jirayia
16) Orochimaru
17) Sandaime Hokage
18) Sasori
19) Sasori
20) Kakashi

Pretty hard to rank the 20 strongest shinnobi in Naruto!


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## Butt Hole lol (Jan 6, 2010)

1)Rikudou sennin (Sage of sixth paths)
2)Senju Hashirama
3)Uchiha Madara
4)pein
5)Hanzou
6)Minato
7)itachi (healthy)
8)Sandaime Hokage (prime)
9)killer bee
10)raikage
11)naruto
12)sasuke
13)danzou
14)orchimaru
15)kisame
16)sasori
17)kakashi
18)jiryia
19)kakuzu
20)Hidan


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## Lord Potato (Jan 6, 2010)

A better list: (Won't include Sage of the six path and Madara)

1. Nagato.- Who can solo him without knowing anything about him? I can't see someone do it.

2. Uchiha Itachi.- Only an Uchiha can defeat Itachi, said by Itachi himself.

3. Namikaze Minato.- No need to explain here right?

4. Kabuto with Orochimaru's power's.- He will surpass Orochimaru, so i assume that he would become this strong.

5.Sarutobi Hiruzen in his Prime.- It was said by Kishi himself in an interview that Minato and Hiruzen is the strongest one's who are dead but that interview is old.

6. Uchiha Sasuke/Uzumaki Naruto.- They are equals.

7. Senju Hashirama.- I know that he defeated Madara but he wasn't that impressive when Orochimaru summoned him, Old Hiruzen could handle Hashirama and Tobirama at the same time.

8. Hanzo.- Defeated the Sannin's i wonder how strong he really was i should maybe place him higher.

9. Jiraiya.- Almost strong as Naruto.

10. Orochimaru.- Could use many forbidden jutsu's etc.

11. Sasori.- One scratch and your done.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (Feb 9, 2010)

i want to explain my list now so people can understand and disagree with things i believe so i will use tiers:
will explain top 20 and then after that list.

God of Gods Tier
A tier for the man who could quell any other fighter in narutoverse with relative ease
1. Rikudo Sennin

*Spoiler*: __ 



Truly, I shoudnt have to explain myself here



(excluding rikudo from logic further down so if i say strongest, it is excluding rikudo)

God Tier
A tier for those who can hold their own for a while against rikudo and defeat even the strongest fighters without dying. Their skills are only matched by others in the tier (and obviously rikudo)
2. Shodai - Hashirama Senju

*Spoiler*: __ 



Defeated Madara at VoTE, has senju body, mokuton and the ability to control bijuus. These abilities put him beyond any other fighters in terms of raw power imo (except maybe pain).



3. Madara

*Spoiler*: __ 



Owner of the EMS and seemingly knows all the uchiha secrets. The greatest uchiha (itachi included) and able the control the NTF. Seemingly untouchable.



4. Prime Hiruzen Sarutobi

*Spoiler*: __ 



Called god of shinobi, we can only presume sandaime is so strong that almost every shinobi feared him in battle. Can finish any battle in a draw with the death god technique and fought off 1st and 2nd as old man. Prime sandaime must have been unbelievable considering his versatility and his surely greater chakra levels.



5. Nagato/Pain

*Spoiler*: __ 



Lets be honest, who without prior knowledge could beat this guy? possibly the above, and thats only if their skills truly match their hype. Posesses the rinnegan, the ultimate dojutsu and essentially has a 6 vs 1 advantage in most fights. Even three bodies is overkill for most kage level fighters. Pain is truly powerful.



6. Minato Namikaze

*Spoiler*: __ 



IMO, if he had lived longer, Minato is potentially only surpassed by rikudo here. Died at such a young age and had run on sight issued against him. Also, created two of the most feared jutsu and sealed the NTF into his son whilst leaving a product of himself in naruto...genius matched only by itachi. Also has the speedblitz factor going on.



7. Itachi Uchiha

*Spoiler*: __ 



The final member of the god tier. Itachi is a genius possibly above all others. Had he reached his potential, he may have been greater than madara. Mastered the MS and imo is the greatest genjutsu user in the manga, madara included.




Elite Kage Tier
A tier for those who could actually fight the god tier for their lives imo (although they would lose). This tier could beat all kage level fighters past and present except those listed in this tier and above.
8. Danzo Shimura

*Spoiler*: __ 



Danzo, seemingly not on a par with hiruzen but eventually managed to gain uchiha eyes and the senju body. This along with izanagi means that he is almost unbeatable in battle. The only thing that prevents him being in the top tier is genius. I reckon most of the top tier could work him out pretty quick and he doesnt have a final ultimate jutsu like the others imo.



9. Killerbee

*Spoiler*: __ 



Ultimate host, in base his swordsmanship is beyond suigetsu and sasuke and his nature manipulation as good. Combine that with bijuu chakra, full bijuu control and form and samehada, and you are potentially looking at an unbeatable shinobi. Could easily have crept into the god tier.



10. Nidaime - Tobirama Senju

*Spoiler*: __ 



Reason for him being in this tier, less hype, less feats and less hax compared to other past kages. Combine that with the latest chapter, and you have a man who is powerful, but overshadowed by his brother. I cant understand why people label him as weak, he died to 20 kumogakure jonins in battle, thats like potentially 20 kurenai, asuma, gai, kakashi level fighters. Dying to that is not weak...that said, he could not beat anyone in god tier.



11. Jiraiya

*Spoiler*: __ 



There is one reason and one reason only to explain jiraiya's position in this tier and that reason is hermit mode. Base jiraiya is dangerous, and has potentially enough skill to fight most kage level fighters to a standstill or even beat them with jutsu such as toads stomach, rasengan etc, but once he hits hermit mode, combined with ma and pa, he becomes a force that few could deal with. Even pain would have fallen had he brought all 6 bodies to the field instead of 3.



12. A

*Spoiler*: __ 



He has serious strength. With his vision clouded with anger, he still fought sasuke to a draw and imo would have beaten him if not for gaara. Has bijuu level chakra, near unmatchable speed, near unmatchable strength and very impressive nature manipulation. If he had shown any ninjutsu aside from the shroud, i would be tempted to put him right up next to his brother. Still, his taijutsu alone makes him untouchable for most fighters.



13. Prime Onoki

*Spoiler*: __ 



Possibly above here, but from what we have seen, he has kekkei genkai and would have one-shotted sasuke if not for madara. Also has survived a past battle with madara suggesting he is able to hold his own even with the god tier. Could be higher than this for all we know.



14. Sasuke Uchiha

*Spoiler*: __ 



I am reluctant to put him above naruto, but since he seems to be a genius again and now has a perfect susanoo, i am struggling to put naruto above him now. Considering how much kishi bums sasuke, it would be naive imo to suggest that he couldnt fight on a par with any in this tier now.



15. Naruto Uzumaki

*Spoiler*: __ 



With prep time, this guy beat one of if not the most dangerous fighters in the manga. Sage mode aside, naruto has the chakra of the NTF at his disposal as well as rasengan variants and seemingly unlimited kage bunshins. Add sage mode and he has almost unparalleled speed and strength along with his base attributes. If he could sustain it for longer and maybe learn to manipulate another nature, thus adding to his arsenal, i would argue that naruto could become god tier in a fairly short space of time.



16. Orochimaru

*Spoiler*: __ 



Fought KN4 on a par for a while and this was when he was ill. Only jiraiya has matched such a feat so who knows how powerful healthy orochi is. Edo tensei and hydra make him even more powerful however the only reason he is so below jiraiya is because imo, his chakra reserves are seemingly not that special and he doesnt have answer to sage mode. He is still definately way above most kage level ninja though.
*Spoiler*: __ 





High Kage Tier
One step below elite kage, these guys could probably fight the above very well and defeat most kage level fighters, just not with the ease of the above tier.
17. Hanzo

*Spoiler*: __ 



This guy fought the fricken sannin to a draw 3 on 1 (although i very much doubt they were anywhere near what they are now). This feat makes him immediately be above most kage level fighters and he could easily be worthy of the above tier tbh.



18. Sasori

*Spoiler*: __ 



Again, this guy could be worthy of the above tier. He has defeated the strongest kazakage and destroyed a village. He is also an unparalleled genius in his style of fighting and seemingly allowed himself to die as chiyo said he could have avoided the attack. Truly a powerful adversary and his strength lies in his uniqueness.



19. Kakuzu

*Spoiler*: __ 



Again, extremely dangerous, taijutsu matches kakashi with sharingan and he can use all five nature variants due to 5 hearts. Also, to beat him, you must kill him 5 times which makes him almost impossible to defeat for someone with equal or lesser skills to him. It also prevents speedblitzing.



20. Mei Terumi

*Spoiler*: __ 



Obviously powerful, has two kekkei genkai. Would be higher but for probable lack of experience coupled with no real reply to physical tanks. Still a high kage level fighter though.



21. Sakumo Hatake

Mid Kage Tier
A ninja that would comfortably keep with most villages strongest ninja and as a result qualify as an average kage level fighter. They could hold their own with almost any adversary, but all have either weaknesses that make them vulnerable, or just not the skill to defeat the above ninja.
22. Kisame Hoshigaki
23. Kakashi Hatake
24. Gaara
25. Tsunade
26. Deidara
27. Kabuto Yakushi

Low Kage Tier
Can be considered the strongest in their village (depending on where they derive), and considered by most as ninja that would certainly defeat most ninja in combat.
28. Chiyo
29. Konan
30. Kimimaro Kaguya
31. Might Gai
32. Hidan

Elite Jonin Level
Can hold their own even against the average kage level fighter, the strongest of the jonin, and those that could be trusted with s-rank missions.
33. Jugo
34. Suigetsu
35. Yamato
36. Ao
37. Fu
38. Torune
39. Darui
40. Asuma


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## Koroshi (Feb 9, 2010)

NECRONECRONECRONECRONECRO.

INB4delete though.


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## Phoenix Zoro (Feb 9, 2010)

my bad delete it then

i just cba to make the same thread again


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## Thunder (Feb 9, 2010)

1-Madara Uchiha
2-Hiruzen Sarutobi
3-Sage of the Six Paths
4-Minato Namikaze
5-SM Naruto Uzumaki
6-Itachi Uchiha
7-Orochimaru
8-Tsunade
9-SM Jiraiya
10-Sasuke Uchiha
11-Pain
12-Salamander Hanzo
13-Hashirama Senju
14 Tobirama Senju
15-Killer Bee
16-E
17-Danzou Shimura
18-Kisame Hoshikagi (fused with Samehada)
19-Third Kazekage
20-Sakumo Hatake

This list isn't in order


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 9, 2010)

Hmm Basing by feats

1)Madara
2)Pein
3)Naruto
4)Jiraiya
5)Itachi
6)Sasuke
7)E
8)Danzo
9)KillerBee
10)Orochimaru
11)Kakuzu
12)Sasori
13)Tsunade
14)Kisame
15)Deidara
16)Onoki
17)Kakashi
18)Gaara
19)Guy
20)Mei


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 9, 2010)

Why is Tsunade above Deidara?


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## Rampage (Feb 9, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Hmm Basing by feats
> 
> 1)Madara
> 2)Pein
> ...



 i Loled.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 9, 2010)

I loled at the thought of Guy beating a Boss Summon-although I wasnt rude about it ^_~


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## Ice Prince (Feb 9, 2010)

Mine would be:

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Hashirama
3. Madara
4. Minato
5. Tobirama
6. Hiruzen
7. Pain/Nagato
8. Itachi
9. Orochimaru
10. Jiraiya
11. Sasori
12. A
13. Kisame
14. Onoki
15. Mei
16. Killer Bee
17. Sasuke
18. Danzou
19. Deidara
20. Gaara

Honorable mentions are Kakuzu, Kakashi, Hanzou, Tsunade, Naruto, and the other jinchuuriki not listed.


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## Black☆Star (Feb 9, 2010)

Ice Prince said:


> Mine would be:
> 
> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> 2. Hashirama
> ...



what the ...?What's he doing there?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 9, 2010)

akkadiaN said:


> what the ...?What's he doing there?


I believe Ice Prince based it by hype and feats . Tobirama was one of the greatest Ninja of his generation. It would make sense to put him near the top of the top 20, dont you think?


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## Rampage (Feb 9, 2010)

Ice Prince said:


> Mine would be:
> 
> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> 2. Hashirama
> ...



Naruto, Kakuzu not in the top 20?


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## Black☆Star (Feb 9, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> I believe Ice Prince based it by hype and feats . Tobirama was one of the greatest Ninja of his generation. It would make sense to put him near the top of the top 20, dont you think?



maybe, but above Pain and Itachi?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 9, 2010)

akkadiaN said:


> maybe, but above Pain and Itachi?


By hype?Almost certainly


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## Black☆Star (Feb 9, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> By hype?Almost certainly



What hype? Pain was way more hyped then him and is currently the strongest character shown so far.There's no way for Tobirama to be above Pain.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 9, 2010)

akkadiaN said:


> What hype? Pain was way more hyped then him and is currently the strongest character shown so far.There's no way for Tobirama to be above Pain.



Pain is argueable. However not Itachi imo. Tobirama has the hype of 
1)Being from one of the strongest Clans ever the Senju Clan
2)Being the brother of one of the strongest Ninja Ever
3)Being a Kage
4)Being able to use Water Style to such a mastery he could use Extrememly powerful Jutsu without using any hand seals.

Itachi
1)Being from one of the strongest Clans ever(weaker than Senju Clan)
2)Killing all of his clan with the help of Madara
3)Graduating from the academy,becoming a Chunin and then ANBU Captain at such a young age

I would say Tobirama>Itachi by hype


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## Ice Prince (Feb 10, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> I believe Ice Prince* based it by hype and feats* . Tobirama was one of the greatest Ninja of his generation. It would make sense to put him near the top of the top 20, dont you think?



I did, namely on hype since we've not really seen too much.  Tobirama is Hashirama's lil bro.  Considering Hashirama's rep, I figured that would have been obvious.  The top 10 for me weren't that hard to pick, but the bottom 10 could certainly have alot of wiggle room.  I just went with personal opinion on alot of my choices, but I tried to be logical.


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## Violent by Design (Feb 10, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Pain is argueable. However not Itachi imo. Tobirama has the hype of
> 1)Being from one of the strongest Clans ever the Senju Clan
> 2)Being the brother of one of the strongest Ninja Ever
> 3)Being a Kage
> 4)Being able to use Water Style to such a mastery he could use Extrememly powerful Jutsu without using any hand seals.


 Itachi had way more hype than Tobirama in the manga. Itachi was one of the most hyped characters in the entire series while Tobirama for the most part was neglected. 





> Itachi
> 1)Being from one of the strongest Clans ever(weaker than Senju Clan)
> 2)Killing all of his clan with the help of Madara
> 3)Graduating from the academy,becoming a Chunin and then ANBU Captain at such a young age


Talk about being unfair. I mean seriously, how is #2 even an indication of Itachi's strength? That kinda just seems like a derogatory statement to me. I mean Itachi was not even in his prime when that happened. 

For one thing, let's not get into shit like "Senju owns Uchiha" just because Hashirama beat Madara. That doesn't mean that every Senju can beat every Uchiha, and the fact is Itachi is widely speculated to be the strongest Uchiha while no one thinks Tobirama is the strongest Senju. I think we could get that much out of the way.

Anyhoot, on to other stuff. You didn't mention Itachi's other feats.

- He dominated Orochimaru when he was a kid, and this was before he had even obtained his most powerful jutsu.

- He dominated Deidara who is one of the most infamous shinobi to come out of Iwa. Again this was before he had his most powerful jutsu. 

- He beat Sasuke's ass, and while being sick - and if he was blood lusted and did not croak from his disease he would have ripped out Sasuke's eyes regardless. 

- You mention Tobirama's water jutsu (Also, what ninjutsu could he perform with out any seals?), yet you don't mention Itachi's legendary Jutsu such as Tsukiyomi, Amaretsu and Susanoo? Eh, that doesn't make much sense.

Uchiha Itachi is hyped up way more than Tobirama in terms of strength. Tobirama is famous because he's an Hokage and a founder of Konoha. Itachi is famous for being a prodigy with the likes no one had ever seen before and for being a mass murderer. 

I don't see how Tobirama was more "hyped" up than Itachi. Tobirama might be in more textbooks in the narutoverse than the Uchiha, but the Mangaka did not imply that Tobirama was more powerful or even more infamous.

Though I'm not 100% sure what you mean by hype still.


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## Kind of a big deal (Feb 10, 2010)

Hanzou has so much more hype than Tobirama.


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## flying shadow (Feb 10, 2010)

not including people never shown or featless. also certain people below others could beat certain people abovethem due to matchups, but are overall less. matchups are everything

1 6 Paths of Pain
2 madara (pains linked vision would make it tough on madara, although by hype he wins. also he could potentially warp Nagato. Pain has shown more firepower, but with teleportation and warping, madara still would have a great shot. the linked vision is what is tough.)
3 Sasuke
4 Danzou (with sharingarm) 
5 Sasori (poison iron sand needles)
6 Naruto (SM) 
7 Kisame
8 Itachi (if healthy would likely be around current Sasuke)
9 Killer Bee
10 Gaara (if in the desert and he is in floating sand sphere, likely above Sasuke with his new sand speed feats)
11 Kakuzu
12 E
13 Kakashi (needs more feats, but is likely comparible to Sasuke by hype, especially with perfected Kamui)
14 deidara (althoug C4 karura is broken, and could potentially kill anybody other than dojutsu users)
15 Tsunade
16 Gai
17 Jugo
18 Suigetsu
19 Hidan
20 Konan

forgot jiraiya (likely comparable to SM naruto)
Orochimaru is tough. if healthy, mayber around Kakuzu, and with edo tensei to summon forst and second hokages, even higher

mights have fogot some others, but whatever


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## Suu (Feb 10, 2010)

Koroshi said:


> NECRONECRONECRONECRONECRO.
> 
> INB4delete though.





uchiha itachi 92 said:


> my bad delete it then
> 
> i just cba to make the same thread again


Sorry, a bit off-topic here, but you're in the all clear uchiha itachi 92. The policy on necro-ing threads has changed quite a bit - only if you necro a _very_ old thread with something non-contributive will your post get deleted now.


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## Jir667 (Feb 10, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Pain is argueable. However not Itachi imo. Tobirama has the hype of
> 1)Being from one of the strongest Clans ever the Senju Clan
> 2)Being the brother of one of the strongest Ninja Ever
> 3)Being a Kage
> ...



Off of hype, idk
In naruto itachi easily has more hype.
Noone really knows madara helped itachi only a few people.
So itachi's hype is single handely beating the strognest clan around.
Something hashirama/tobirama never did.
So in naruto im saying itachi's hype is the biggest out of any kage by far.
Only Rikudo, Pain and Maybe Madara have as big of a hype.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Feb 10, 2010)

Rikudo Sennin
Hashirama
Madara
Itachi
Pain
Killer Bee
Kakashi
Naruto
Gaara
Gai
Tsunade
Hanzou
Danzou
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Shikamaru
Sasuke
Shino
Lee
Naruto
Neji


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 10, 2010)

Why the hell are there two Narutos, and why is one so low?

Why are Jiraiya, Hanzou, Orochimaru and Sasuke all below Tsunade?

Why is Kakashi so high up in that list?

I understand that each individual has their own opinion and perspective of things, but this just doesn't make sense.


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## Rampage (Feb 10, 2010)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Rikudo Sennin
> Hashirama
> Madara
> Itachi
> ...



This list is ridiculous...


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 10, 2010)

TL;DR time.

I'm posting this since I haven't actually yet posted my thoughts on the placements of them.

*Number 1: Rikudou Sennin*

From all the hype we've been given from him, it's natural he should be in first place. He was the foundation for Ninjutsu, was the first to wield the Rinnegan, "created" the Moon while in a sickened state, was the Jinchuriki for the most powerful Bijuu(?) ever and his offspring's descendants came to create two of the most powerful clans of all time.

*Number 2: Madara Uchiha*

Probably going to get stuff like "Shodaime beat him, why the fuck is he number 2 and not him? *Rage rage rage*. He, like the Shodaime stood at the Top of the Ninja world and he was always called upon if the Shodaime or the Senjus made a move. It's been implied he can match the Shodaime in combat and the fact he's lived this long is a true testament to his skills(hax). He's also extremely intelligent since he's managed to manipulate so many and has lived this long without being found out(apart from Itachi).

His downfall is the fact that in his present states and with his current feats, he lacks firepower.

*Number 3: Shodaime Hokage*

He stood at the Top of the Ninja world and was always called upon if Madara or the Uchihas made a move. He's been hyped up quite a lot and he with his Mokuton made the foundations of Konoha. Literally. Yamato made a few houses and was extremely exhausted, what the Shodaime did shows that he  has a extremely large amount of stamina. He also managed to suppress the Bijuus. Not much else to put really.

Like Madara, his weakness seems to be his lack of firepower.

*Number 4: Pain Rikudo*

Should be pretty obvious, so I won't write too much on it. Simply put, Nagato/Pain was a genius. At a young age, he mastered everything(apparently) Jiraiya threw at him with ease. As Nagato, he showed impressive speed and amazing durability(had exploding tags wrapped around his legs). As Pain however, he has the ability to summon a large variety of summons, fuck up Chakra control with rods that can extend from his body, control force and push(larger scale he can destroy a large radius of a village and make a ball of energy that pulls everything in), use stuff that the Narutoverse shouldn't even -have- like missiles and lasers, soul sucks out and heal other bodies and some other shit like reviving people. All this, and a ridiculous amount of stamina that makes me question if Naruto -really- has the most amount of stamina.

*Number 5: Hanzo*

This should be pretty obvious.

*Number 6: Hizuren Sarutobi, the Sandaime Hokage*

In his "Prime" he was known as the "God of Shinobi", which really shows how powerful he was during his younger days. Even in his advanced age, he managed to outmaneuver Edo Tensei Nidaime and Shodaime and place exploding tags on them. He has a large variety of jutsu and seems to have a jutsu for every situation(Doton Mud flow, Kage Shurikens and even Tile shurikens) and is said to have knowledge on every single jutsu in Konoha(personally I believe this is hype, but there should be some truth inside it). In the Databooks he's quite a balanced fellow, scoring a 5 in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, Knowledge and seals. Due to his advanced age however, his stamina, speed and strength scores were below average. He can also perform Kage Bushins, which takes away the risk of death when using Shiki Fuujin.

*Number 7: Minato Namikaze, the Yondaime Hokage*
_(Jesus, I'm losing my attention span already)_

He's received a good share of hype from his sensei, Jiraiya(who is an extremely powerful Shinobi in his own right) and is said to be the finest shinobi Konoha has ever produced. At a young age(compared to quite a lot of the high tiers anyway) he recieved a flee on sight order in War due to his original jutsu, Hirashin. A space/time jutsu that lets you warp to the desired location as long as that place/thing has his jutsu formula on. He also created Rasengan, a A rank jutsu that uses a high level of Spiral Recomposition and Shiki Fuujin, a S rank sealing jutsu that draws the power of a God to seal other people's souls at the cost of his life. He can also use a variation of this jutsu to seal half of the thing he's sealing inside another being and half into the Shiki Fuujin's stomach. He's shown impressive intelligence, as he managed to predict Naruto's possible releasing of the Kyuubi and therefore made a fail safe.

*Number 8: Danzo, the temporary Rokudaime Hokage*

A mysterious individual with a large variety of abilities. He's probably one of the more "haxxed" characters. I mean seriously, twelve Sharingans? Not only do they "revive" him(I can't be arsed going into details about Izanagi) but his other eye, Shisui's eye, allows him to influence other people's actions. Not only does he have the abilities of the Uchihas, but he also possesses the powers of the Senju, Mokuton which makes him a good match up against most Jinchurikis. This isn't all of it either, he also has a reverse Seal jutsu that kills anyone around him when he dies(basically, he can make any match a tie) and a seal that disables mobility upon contact. He's shown very very high proficiency in Genjutsu, as he was able to break Tsukiyomi(even if it _was_ a weakened one). And to top it all of, he has a gigantic bull summon that sucks things in and powers up his Fuuton to the point it can weaken Susanoo.

*Number 9: Killer Bee*

A tad reckless, well not a tad reckless. This is the same guy who started to come up with lyrics midway during a fight with a member of Akatsuki. Despite this, he is extremely powerful. He was able to take a kick square in the chest without even noticing it, showing that he's got decent durability. Or that Sasuke is just weak. He has a very unpredictable Taijutsu style, he tends to use Raiton enhanced Kenjutsu(like Sasuke, but with several swords) and occasionally uses partial transformation to allow the Hachibi to spit Ink at the opponent to help him land a hit. His Rari Atto is basically just like any Jinchuriki shroud, but his V2 is truly lethal. In his V2, his Chakra is too...Condensed(?) to absorb and he is _extremely_ fast and strong, to the point he could catch Kisame off guard and blow away his chest. He is also capable of using Bijuu beams.

Did I mention he can also completely transform into the Hachibi?

*Number 10: Jiraiya*
_(Placing these people are getting harder and harder)_

Since he's a Sannin, it's only natural he should get a reasonably high place in the List. He's got a massive amount of experience and is also extremely versatile. He can make barriers that sense all movement within it and can use Hair jutsu for a variety of offenses or defensive jutsu. He also has a few minor oil and Katon jutsu. His most noticeable jutsus are Kuchiyose jutsu(he uses it as a regular part of his combat style and can summon a _very_ large variety of frogs), Rasengan, Yomi Numa(extremely powerful, in his weakened state it was enough to "sink" a boss sized summon) and Hermit Mode. In Hermit Mode, he's...Very powerful. His strength was strong enough to _blind_ someone with a kick and he's also very fast. Also, he has Ma and Pa to aid him, Pa can throw smoke bombs that allow Jiraiya to gain the advantage since he should have Sage Senses and the two are capable of tracking(Ma), using Suitons that cut through metal(Pa) and using a very powerful Genjutsu(both). In this form he also has Chou Odama Rasengan(featless, but should be very powerful since Odama Rasengan when used by base Naruto destroyed a portion of a forest) and Kenbari Senbon(destroyed a _stone_ Panda summon).


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 10, 2010)

Kazekage Gaara said:


> Rikudo Sennin
> Hashirama
> Madara
> Itachi
> ...



Ummm Narutos on this list twice ^_~
Although imo Neji,Shikamaru,Shino and Lee should definitly not be on the top 20

Pein>Itachi 
Naruto>Kakashi KillerBee
Jiraiya>Orochimaru..

I pretty much disagree with half your list


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## Namikaze Minato (Feb 10, 2010)

Atlantic Storm , why the fuck are you putting madara ahead of hashriama although hashirama raped madara so hard he was suffering from injuries for the last 60 years , not to mention he raped kakuzu too. every guy in your list have been put accroding that he can overpower the person next to him , means the number 5 in your list can beat number 6 and thats the normal thing and the understandable , but WTH , number 2 in your list was stomped by number 3 , i mean are you out of your friggin mind ? or are you on pot ?


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 10, 2010)

Have you even read why I put them there?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 10, 2010)

spoonz said:


> Atlantic Storm , why the fuck are you putting madara ahead of hashriama although hashirama raped madara so hard he was suffering from injuries for the last 60 years , not to mention he raped kakuzu too. every guy in your list have been put accroding that he can overpower the person next to him , means the number 5 in your list can beat number 6 and thats the normal thing and the understandable , but WTH , number 2 in your list was stomped by number 3 , i mean are you out of your friggin mind ? or are you on pot ?


As far as Im concerned, The Logic AS put into his list is outclassing the logic you're stating in this post ^_~ Jeez, tone it down , its only a thread


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## Rampage (Feb 10, 2010)

GoS why is Madara above Shodai? And yes i have read it. You basically stated the same things for both of them, but added that Madara is still alive (Hax and plot) and fought on par with Shodai in terms of combat skills, how does that make him superior to Shodai?

Madara admitted it himself.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 10, 2010)

The fact that he lived this long, I also put him above the Shodaime since he has shown himself to be more intelligent.


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## Rampage (Feb 10, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The fact that he lived this long, I also put him above the Shodaime since he has shown himself to be more intelligent.



Lol the fact that he lived this long? The plot required him to live this long. How do you know how intelligent Shodai was?. You can't deny the fact that Madara clearly stated how badly he was beaten by Shodai.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 10, 2010)

The plot required him to live so long? Bull. That's true, but he lived that long with his skills at deception and hiding. I don't know how intelligent Shodai was, but Madara has more intellectual feats.


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## Elite Uchiha (Feb 10, 2010)

Thats idiotic to say Madara is stronger than Shodai.

Clearly.


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## Rampage (Feb 10, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> The plot required him to live so long? Bull. That's true, but he lived that long with his skills at deception and hiding. I don't know how intelligent Shodai was, but Madara has more intellectual feats.



Your contradicting your self. You wrote "Bull" followed by "thats true". Fair enough it was his skill's but mostly IMO it was plot. So you can't really say Madara was smarter than Shodai, he was a hokage who to some extent should have been a very intelligent person etc. You haven't commented on the Madara admitting to be inferior to Shodai part.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 10, 2010)

Meh, I'll admit, I don't think I was thinking clearly when I put Madara above the Shodai.

Oh well, I'm too lazy to go and change it now

Maybe when I update my list.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 10, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Meh, I'll admit, I don't think I was thinking clearly when I put Madara above the Shodai.
> 
> Oh well, I'm too lazy to go and change it now
> 
> Maybe when I update my list.


Actually I kind of see where you're coming from. Actual Strength isnt the only contributive factor to testing someones Power. Other factors can influence it too, like intelligence for example.

Needless to say-I myself would also put Hashirama above Madara.In any case both of our theories are hype based. So feats wise-they dont mean much


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## Rampage (Feb 10, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Actually I kind of see where you're coming from. Actual Strength isnt the only contributive factor to testing someones Power. Other factors can influence it too, like intelligence for example.
> 
> Needless to say-I myself would also put Hashirama above Madara.In any case both of our theories are hype based. So feats wise-they dont mean much



If your theories are Hype based, then Shodai would come out on top.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 10, 2010)

Uzumaki Lee said:


> If your theories are Hype based, then Shodai would come out on top.



Different people have different views ^_^


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## Wang Yuanji (Feb 10, 2010)

1. 
2. Sakura
3. Ino
4. Tenten
5. Shizune
6. Haku
7. Konohamaru
8. Temari
9. Inoue
10. Akamaru
11. Sai
12. Kankuro
13. Kiba
14. Zabuza
15. Demon brothers
16. Demon Brothers1
17. Tazuna
18. Udon
19. Moegi
20. Ayame


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## Rampage (Feb 10, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Different people have different views ^_^




I agree, but this dosen't have anything to do with different views. Your were basing your opinion on hype right? I'm stating that; if thats the case then Shodai would still come out on top as he has been hyped more. For example by Madara himself.


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## Namikaze Minato (Feb 11, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Meh, I'll admit, I don't think I was thinking clearly when I put Madara above the Shodai.
> 
> Oh well, I'm too lazy to go and change it now
> 
> Maybe when I update my list.



It's OK  son  , be honest were you on pot when you made the list 

lol jk , it's a great list . but i'd understand if you made madara and shodai in the same rank like both of them are in the 2nd but you made shodai inferior to madaRA which is a big mistake , look at it form the bright side , my post have spared you from the senju tards wrath you should thank me lol jk , and sorry for my previous post i was taunting you



Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Different people have different views ^_^



well kishi's view is what matters and if he says konohamru can rape shodai than konohamaru can rape shodai


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## Sanbi (Feb 12, 2010)

I am so mad right now, because I had a very long list, and reasons why each charcter belonged there, and NF crashes when I tried to preview it. 

Anyway here is my list.

1. Rikudō Sennin
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Pein Rikudō
5. Hiruzen Sarutobi
6. Minato Namikaze
7. Kirābī
8. Danzō Shimura
9. Jiraiya
10. Itachi Uchiha
11. Orochimaru
12. Akasuna no Sasori 
13. Kisame Hoshigaki
Note: The next two are interchangeable. 
14. Sasuke Uchiha
15. Naruto Uzumaki
16. Ē
17. Sabaku no Garra
18. Kakuzu
19. Deidara
20. Kakashi Hatake


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## Big Mom (Feb 12, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I am so mad right now, because I had a very long list, and reasons why each charcter belonged there, and NF crashes when I tried to preview it.
> 
> Anyway here is my list.
> 
> ...




This has been the closest to the best I have seen so far. Nice job. Rep


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## Maerala (Feb 12, 2010)

If we include Rikudo Sennin, we might as well put his sons right under him.


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## lolitaninja (Feb 12, 2010)

Ryuu Tsuyoshi said:


> 1.
> 2. Sakura
> 3. Ino
> 4. Tenten
> ...



Good list! (Except for Ino)


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2010)

*1. Jyubi Rikudō Sennin Jyubi puts him here by default/
2. Hashirama Senju Naruto's final Senju benchmark to surpass.
3. Madara Uchiha Sasuke's final Uchiha benchmark to surpass.
4. Nagato  Sort of sealed the Kyubi. Minato's replacement intermediary benchmark.
5. Minato Sealed the mythical Kyubi. The intermediary Senju benchmark 
6. Itachi Sealed the mythical YamatA. The intermediary Uchiha benchmark
7. Sasuke Current status with full Mangyekou and Kirin.
8. Naruto Current status with full Sage Mode and Rasengan.
9. Orochimaru Sasuke's legendary teacher: a Sanin.
10. Jiraiya Naruto's legendary teacher: a Sanin
11. Tsunade The Sanin share a rock-paper-scissors relationship.
11. Kakashi Team 7 leader. Lightning Mangyekou user.
12. Hiruzen The parallel of Kakashi to Team 7. Hiruzen to the Sanin.
13. Kirābī Very, very strong.
14. Danzō Shimura Very, very strong.
15. Deidara Incredible Ninjutsu
16. Akasuna no Sasori Incredible Ninjutsu
17. Kisame Hoshigaki Incredible Ninjutsu.
18. Sabaku no Garra Incredible Ninjutsu.
18. Ē One of the strongest Kages shown.
19. Kakuzu One of the strongest Akatsuki shown.*

This is how I would argue that the author expressed their power through symbolism, plot, hype, and feats. I squeezed Tsunade in their despite feats, but it's fairly obvious that the Sanin are meant to be equals and above the crop. We haven't seen her go all out after getting back in fighting shape just yet. So when she gets out of that coma...


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## Sanbi (Feb 14, 2010)

Soloman said:


> 6. Itachi: Sealed the mythical Yamato. The intermediary Uchiha benchmark


I'm sorry but I have to quote this, however much I disagree with it and its meaning. He sealed the mythical Yamato~  He surely is mythical alright


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## Sadgoob (Feb 14, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I'm sorry but I have to quote this, however much I disagree with it and its meaning. He sealed the mythical Yamato~  He surely is mythical alright.



I don't know if you're being funny or ignorant. In either case, that technique is a parallel to the Kyubi in Shinto  as it was the only beast that could compete with the Kyubi on even ground. Considering all of the other painfully obvious parallels between Minato and Itachi this one isn't that hard to grasp: they both sealed monsters involving their loved ones. It's no coincidence that Itachi sealed Yamata while Nagato and Minato were sealing the Kyubi. As I said, they were the intermediary benchmarks for the main characters.


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## Sanbi (Feb 14, 2010)

Oh, no I didn't mean amything serious, Illusory. I was just pointing out you spelled it wrong and instead of the mythical Yamata it was the mythical Yamato, like as in the character Yamato.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 14, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Oh, no I didn't mean amything serious, Illusory. I was just pointing out you spelled it wrong and instead of the mythical Yamata it was the mythical Yamato, like as in the character Yamato.



Oh, I didn't even notice lol. I would hate Itachi if he killed Tenzou before anything was revealed about him. But, Yamata, got it. It seems feminine when I write that though. Oh, well.


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## Sanbi (Feb 14, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Oh, I didn't even notice lol. I would hate Itachi if he killed Tenzou before anything was revealed about him.



I just wish Yamato got some more development and such, because he seems to get ignored a lot. Well, I'll be going to bed since I'm practically asleep already lol. I'll remember the mythical Yamato from now on.


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## liquid spiral (Feb 14, 2010)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Hashirama Senju 
3.Madara Uchiha
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Nagato/Pain
6. Hiruzen Sarutobi
7. Tobirama Senju
8.  Jiraiya
9. Killer Bee
10. Naruto
11. Itachi
12. Raikage
13. Sasuke
14. Kisame
15. Danzou

cant be bothered to do 20


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## Smiley (Feb 14, 2010)

Naruto would eventually be the strongest ever shinobi as he is the main character and all.

But so far i would say:

1. Sage of the six paths.
2. Hasirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha/Negato
4. Minato Namikaze/Hiruzen Sarutobi (PRIME)
5. Jiraiya/Raikage (Raikage is very overated for a person we have not yet seen have a single fight)
6. Itachi/Tobirama Senju/Kisame/Killerbee/Hanzo (who was able to beat a young 3 Legendary sannin by himself but was easily killed by a young Negato)
7. Naruto Uzumaki/Sasuke Uchiha
8. Orocihmaru
9. Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old Man)
10. Danzou


Its very hard to remember all the characters and their strengths. My list probably has many mistakes but please do feel free to agree or disagree with my list with given evidence.

Made me think very hard to construct this list tbh lulz xD =D


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## Thunder (Feb 14, 2010)

My list in no particular order

1-Sage of the Six Paths
2-Madara Uchiha
3-Minato Namakaze
4-Pain
5-HM Jiraiya
6-Hanzo of the Salamader
7-Itachi Uchiha
8-Orochimaru
9-Hashirama Senju
10-Sakumo Hatake
11-Tsunade
12-Tobirama Senju
13-Sasuke Uchiha
14-Naruto Uzumaki
15-Killer Bee
16-Danzo Shimura
17-E
18-Third Kazekage
19-Hiruzen Sarutobi
20-Kisame Hoshikagi (Fused with Samehada)


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## ShinobiofAfrika (Feb 15, 2010)

1.Naruto/ Sasuka 
2. Pain
3. Itachi Uchiha


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## PatoUchiha (Feb 20, 2010)

This is my list.

1. Sage of the Six Paths (He could seal Juubi)
2. Hashirama Senju (He can control Bijuus)
3. Madara Uchiha (He can control Kyubi and have MS)
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Pain
6. Sasuke
7. Naruto
8. Jiraiya
9.  Itachi
10. Killer Bee
11. Raikage
13. Kisame
14. Orochimaru
15. Danzou
16. Deidara
17. Kakuzu
18. Sasori
19. Tsunade
20. Kakashi


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## TimBooth (Feb 21, 2010)

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Madara Uchiha
5. Nagato
6. Itachi Uchiha
7. Naruto Uzumaki
8. Minato Namikaze
9. Sasori
10. Killer A
11. Killer Bee
12. Tobirama Senju
13. Kisame Hoshigaki
14. Danzo Shimura
15. Sasuke Uchiha
16. Jiraiya
17. Deidara
18. Orochimaru
19. Kakuzu
20. Tsunade

I didn't include anyone like Hanzo, the Third Kazekage or the White Fang, simply because...

And by the way, I believe Naruto was stated to have surpassed Minato and Jiraiya, wasn't he?


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## PatoUchiha (Feb 21, 2010)

TimBooth said:


> And by the way, I believe Naruto was stated to have surpassed Minato and Jiraiya, wasn't he?



i think he surpassed jiraiya maybe, but minato... i don't think so
he had the speed of Raikage raiton shroud 2 or more, he could seal kyuubi
and in ninja war if a ninja saw him, they had the order to run away

he was considered a rare genius that appeared only once a generation

idk it was stated that naruto surpased him but i realy dunno


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## `Monster (Feb 21, 2010)

Tsunade > All


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## kprzen (Feb 27, 2010)

1. Sage of six paths
2. 1st Hokage
3  3rd Hokage
4. Naruto
5. Pain
7. Jaraiya
6. Madara
7. Itachi
8. Killer Bee
9. Raikage
10. Sasuke


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## Sadgoob (Feb 27, 2010)

Kakashi is definitely one the strongest with his Kamui feats.


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## ? (Feb 27, 2010)

kakashi with kamui would beat arguably any ninja in the manga. even madara if he timed it right.


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## Angoobo (Feb 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Kakashi is definitely one the strongest with his Kamui feats.




He never used it tro turn a fight to his advantage, nor had he won a fight with it.
Kakashi is a high level Jonin, but that's all. I don't think he's one of the 20 strongest shinobi.


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## ? (Feb 27, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> He never used it tro turn a fight to his advantage, nor had he won a fight with it.
> Kakashi is a high level Jonin, but that's all. I don't think he's one of the 20 strongest shinobi.


true, but that's because kakashi is heavily gimped by PiS. seriously, kamui is HAXXED.

it can be used at all ranges, and since it's space-time it is instant.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 27, 2010)

Kakashi warped away an arrow that is larger than several men and moves too quickly for his body to react. Thus the list of people whom he couldn't warp away are very, very small. I would say he's right below Minato and Itachi now and slightly above Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Butt Hole lol (Feb 27, 2010)

1-Sage of the Six Paths
2-Hashirama
3-Madara
4-Pain
5-Minato
6-Sakumo Hatake
7-Hanzo of the Salamader
8-Itachi Uchiha
9-Danzo Shimura
10-Sasuke Uchiha
11-Naruto Uzumaki
12-HM Jiraiya
13-Orochimaru
14-Killer Bee
15-E
16-Hiruzen Sarutobi
17-Kisame Hoshikagi
18-Kakazu
19-Kakashi Hatake
20-Gara


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## Goobtachi (Feb 27, 2010)

Inu said:


> kakashi with kamui would beat arguably any ninja in the manga. even madara if he timed it right.



No, an ama shot is as fast to use as a kamui shot...Kakashi will waste it on nothing(and since he has stamina problems).....

the uchiha with MS , Pain kakuzu are definitely stronger than Kakashi....Raikage may just evade it like he did with amaterasu


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## Angoobo (Feb 27, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Kakashi warped away an arrow that is larger than several men and moves too quickly for his body to react. Thus the list of people whom he couldn't warp away are very, very small. I would say he's right below Minato and Itachi now and slightly above Naruto and Sasuke.



Lol what?
Kakashi said he was surpassed by post FRS-training Naruto, current Naruto and Sasuke would rapestomp him.


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## ? (Feb 27, 2010)

godtachi said:


> No, an ama shot is as fast to use as a kamui shot...Kakashi will waste it on nothing(and since he has stamina problems).....


amaterasu is not instantaneous. kamui is since it is space/time manipulation, so it will automatically land on it's opponent. amaterasu is also limited by range (5 meters), while kamui can be used at any range.so kakashi's kamui would not be wasted,  unless the opponent is too fast for his eyes to see ( only thing shown that has truely blitzed sharingan is itachi's handseals, and raikage's shunshin).


> the uchiha with MS , Pain kakuzu are definitely stronger than Kakashi....Raikage may just evade it like he did with amaterasu


that may be true, but only because the plot calls for it. without that restriction, he could arguable beat them with kamui before they got to use any jutsu (bar pein since he's multiple bodies).


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## Goobtachi (Feb 27, 2010)

^^ Kamui isn't instantaneous, he has to focus on the target and the black hole appears, much like Amaterasu, that's why i believe Kakashi would waste a kamui shot here....
Plus, he can't use it right off the bat unless he's sure it's the real body(no KB, no genjutsu...)


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## Sanbi (Feb 27, 2010)

Well now with his Kamui feats I would say Kakashi is just below Kisame to above Sasori level so about 12-14 range. He is still below Itachi, Danzo, Kirabi, Jiraiya, and Oro in my mind however.


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## Jinei Namikaze (Feb 28, 2010)

1) Rikudo sennin
2) Hashirama Senju
3) Uchiha Madara
4) Minato Namikaze
5) Nagato/Pain
6) Hiruzen Sarutobi
7) Sanshuo no Hanzo
8) Jiraiya
9) Uchiha Itachi
10) Orochimaru
11) Uzumaki Naruto (tie)
11) Uchiha Sasuke (tie)
13) Danzo
14) Yondaime Raikage
15) Tobirama Senju
16) Killerbee
17) Tsunade
18) Hatake Kakashi
19) Hoshigaki Kisame
20) Kakuzu


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 1, 2010)

Tier 1:
Rikudo Sennin

Tier 2:
Senju Hashirama
Uchiha Madara

Tier 3:
Killer Bee

Tier 4:
Uchiha Sasuke
Uzumaki Naruto
Pain Rikudo
Namikaze Minato
Yondaime Raikage

Tier 5:
Uchiha Itachi
Hatake Kakashi

Tier 6:
Sabaku no Gaara
Jiraiya
Orochimaru

Tier 7:
Hanzo
Sarutobi Hiruzen

Tier 8:
Terumi Mei
Senju Tobirama
Tsunade 

Tier 9:
Hoshigaki Kisame
Akasuna no Sasori

Tier 10:
Sandaime Kazekage
Onoki
Deidara


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## DarkRasengan (Mar 1, 2010)

1.Pain
2.Current Madara
3.Minato
4.Naruto
5.Killerbee
6.Jiraiya
7.Sasuke
8.Itachi
9.Orochimaru
10.kisame
11.Kakashi
12.Raikage
13.Sasori
14.Gaara
15.Deidara
16.Tsuchikage
17.Kakuzu
18.Danzou
19.Mizukage
20.Tsunade


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## Maerala (Mar 2, 2010)

Leaving out Rikudo Sennin and his sons.

1. Nagato
2. Senju Hashirama
3. Uchiha Madara
4. Namikaze Minato
5. Uchiha Itachi
This is harder than I thought it'd be...
6. Sarutobi Hiruzen
7. Uzumaki Naruto
8. Uchiha Sasuke
9. Jiraiya
10. Orochimaru
11. Tsunade
Lost interest at this point, mostly 'cause it got harder.
12. Killer Bee
13. A
14. Onoki
15. Terumi Mei
16. Gaara
17. Senju Tobirama
18. Hatake Kakashi
19. Hanzou
20. Sasori

 I don't like my list.


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## Smiley (Mar 2, 2010)

Godaime Hokage said:


> Leaving out Rikudo Sennin and his sons.
> 
> 1. Nagato
> 2. Senju Hashirama
> ...



No, that list looks ok 

I'd say Jiraiya is stronger than itachi,naruto and sasuke


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## Grani (Mar 2, 2010)

01. Madara Uchiha
02. Pein
03. SM Naruto
04. Jirayia
05. Itachi
06. Kakashi
07. Raikage
08. Sasuke
09. Orochimaru
10. Kakuzu
11. Danzo
12. Tsunade
13. Deidara
14. Sasori
15. Gaara
16. Kisame
17. Killerbee
18. Guy
19. Shikamaru (if counting intellect)
20. Hidan

That's about how I see it. Of course no one has to agree with this and no one probably fully will, since there are maaany characters here. But that's basically it.


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## DarkRasengan (Mar 2, 2010)

Grani said:


> 01. Madara Uchiha
> 02. Pein
> 03. SM Naruto
> 04. Jirayia
> ...



This is actually a pretty solid list. Alot of mine is based on speculation (like the other kages). But this is what we have seen.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Mar 29, 2010)

I'm not counting Sage of the Six Paths and his sons.

1.Hashirama Senju

-His powerss were so great that he was able to defeat Madara Uchiha with Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and Nine-Tailed Demon Fox at his side.His Wood Release Secret Technique: Birth of Dense Woodland is Konoha's most feared technique.With this jutsu he  Could control all the tailed beasts like they were his pets.Madara claimed Hashirama was the person he respected the most.

2.Madara Uchiha

-Fought against Shodai many times and wasn't killed.He could stop Suigetsu's  sword with one arm.One of the fastest charachters in the manga.Could Summon  and Control  Nine-Tailed Demon Fox.As he and Itachi said the wounds  received from Hashirama Senju were too big and has left him powerless, an empty shell of his former self. 

3.Itachi Uchiha

-One of the most talented Uchiha.True genius. His genjutsu techniques are unrivaled.He could easily defeat ninjas like Deidara, Sasuke, Kakashi and Orochimaru.Zetsu was amazed of every move on sick Itachi and said that all his jutsus are  the best in their own category.Madara didn't dare to touch Konoha when he was alive.Madara said that Itachi never ceased to amaze him.Danzou didn't dare to touch Sasuke when Itachi was a live.Kisame his partner in Akatsuki, acknowledged Itachi as the stronger of the two. Saying that this was all Itachi was capable of is an insult, because like the databook, Kakashi and Zetsu said, this was only a glimpse of his abilities in a manner of speaking.

4.Sasuke Uchiha

-Uchiha Madara's Reincarnation.Madara, Itachi, and Orochimaru stated that he will become the strongest Uchiha.Madara also said  to Zetsu that Sasuke can become more powerful than Nagato.Nine Tails said that  Sasuke has the same  chakra as Madara.He is strong enogh to fight and defead ninjas like Orochimaru, Deidara, Itachi,Danzō,Killer Bee,Raikage also he trolled Naruto 3 times.Above everyone in his generation.

5.Nagato/Pain

-He knocked down and killed Hanzou,kage of the rain village on his own,he also done the same thing with the top-level shinobi like  kakashi with less effort. he also defeated Jiraiya but stated that he might not have won if Jiraiya knew the secret to his techniques.The best Ninjutsu user in the manga.

6.Kirabi

-He fully control the Hachibi-Second Strongest of the Tailed Beasts. Madara Uchiha claimed that he is a perfect shinobi.One of the fastest shinobis in the manga.The best Taijutsu user Imo.Could equality fight with Sasuke and defeated Kisame.

7.Minato

-Also one of the fastest charachters in the manga.Creator of the Rasengan.He is one of the 2 shinobis who could perform the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.Flying Thunder God Technique is one of the best jutsus.Against Madara he did that what he did.

8.Orochimaru

-The god of   Kinjutsu.he can use Summoning: Impure World Resurrection, which allowed him to revive the dead-he revived the 1st and the 2nd hokage to fight for him.He defeated the 3rd.Also one of the best ninjutsu users in the manga.Not to mention he was able to take on jiraiya and tsunade fairly well in a battle where both his arms were dead.The strongest Sannin.

9.Jiraiya

-Fought equality against Pain.Nagato said Jiraiya's  that Jiraiya would likely have won against Pain if he had had prior knowledge of Pain's six separate bodies.Well-versed in genjutsu, ninjutsu and taijutsu.

10.Kisame

-The strongest of theSeven Shinobi Swordsmens and he wields the strongest sword called Samehada. Samehada can absorb vast amounts of chakra and transfer it to Kisame, which he uses to restore his stamina and health.Solid fighter, when fighting a clone with only 1/3 of his total chakra guy had to open 6(?) (I don't remember if he opened 5 or 6) of his inner gates and release primary lotus just to take him out. if he was fighting his full strength I don't think guy's team would have won that fight.Also feared as "A Jinchuriki with no tails".

11.Hiruzen Sarutobi

-God of Shinobi.According to Iruka, he was the strongest  hokage(I don't know why).5's in Ninjutsu,Taijutsu and Genjutsu.

12.Hanzō 

-3 Sannins couldn't defeat him.His power was so great that Jiraiya was shoked that someone(Pain) defeated him.

13.Naruto

-surpassed Minato in Rasengan.He has but can't control the most powerful tailed beast.One of the best in taijutsu,good in Ninjutsu but limited in Genjutsu.

14.Sasori

-298 puppets.He had power to defeat and kill the Third Kazekage, who was said to be the strongest Kazekage.Also one of the most intelligent shinobis in the manga.He was defeated by Sakura and Chiyo but he decided to give up and let himself get killed by Chiyo's last attack.

15.Raikage

-The fastest man in the manga,has some of the greatest stamina and strength.The best taijutsu user in the manga after Kirabi.Said to be stronger than his brother but he isn't imo.

16.Sakumo Hatake

-truly powerful shinobi, and in his time, his powers were said to surpass those of the Sannin.Minato talked about him like for god.

17.Kakuzu

-Very powerful ninja. If not for naruto stepping in with his rasen shuriken he very well could have defeated kakashi, ino and choji.Extremely underestimated in my eyes. Very powerful and has a lot of experiences and has 5 hearts. Combined with his 5 hearts (which can easily be replaced), smartness and strength, he is very powerful.

18.Danzou

-Extremely powerful ninja. Danzō was able to easily kill several would-be assassins and was able to fight on the same level with Sasuke.He could use Izanagi-one of the most powerful genjutsu.

19.Deidara

-While he was introduced as a lower ranking akatsuki (followed orders from sasori and didn't seem to hold up against kakashi very well) i think he was preatty strong.He did very well in the fight against sasuke, not to mention he took Gaara out which is no easy task. I think if he was a cooler level headed character (like itachi) then he would have ranked higher in the organization.

20.Kakshi

-1000+ jutsus.His speed was praised by Madara Uchiha.He is also candidate for the position of Hokage.

Honourable Mention

Tobirama Senji

-We don't know anything about him.He was known for his Water Release jutsu.Maybe I'm underrating him.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

I've done so many lists, and they keep changing slightly. The only ones that tend to stick around the same place are the top tiers.


1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Uchiha Madara (current)
3. Uchiha Itachi/Pain Rikudou/Namikaze Minato
4. Uchiha Itachi/Pain Rikudou/Namikaze Minato
5. Uchiha Itachi/Pain Rikudou/Namikaze Minato
6. Raikage
7. Sasori
8. Hoshigaki Kisame
9. Killer Bee
10. Deidara
11. Uchiha Sasuke (Hebi)
12. Uchiha Sasuke (Taka)/Uzumaki Naruto
13. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
14. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
15. Shimura Danzou/Sarutobi Hiruzen
16. Shimura Danzou/Sarutobi Hiruzen
17. Kakuzu (recent)
18. Senju Hashirama
19. Uchiha Madara (young)
20. Maito Gai

Honorable mentions:

21. Tsunade
22. Gaara
23. Hatake Kakashi
24. Senju Tobirama
25. Shikamaru
26. Hidan
27. Momochi Zabuza



I didn't account for characters we know too little about, such as Zetsu, Konan, Oonoki, Mei, etc.


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## HBK1996 (Mar 29, 2010)

ummmmmmmmmmmm does naruto kyuubi count in the lists. i haven't seen naruto with 8 tails in the list


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## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

I just counted all Jinchuuriki transformations as part of the character's overall power. But in Naruto's case, for example, I left out the full Kyuubi Bijuu, since he cannot fully transform.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Seeing Kisame above Deidara , Jiraiya, Orochimaru or Kakashi is hilarious
Hell, Kakashi below GAI?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

*1. Jūbi Rikudō Sennin*

The body of Hashirama, the eyes of Madara, and the infinite power of the Jyubi. He made the moon and possesses one of the most formidable eye techniques in the manga. He is the forefather of all shinobi and I can only fathom a Jūbi Madara that is perfectly omnipotent in Mugen Tsukuyomi ever surpassing him.

*2. Prime Hashirama Senju*

Merely injecting the cells of this man in to your body gives you enough stamina to not only maintain eleven Sharingan without genetic heritage, but also to use exhausting forbidden techniques. He is a man who not only at one time controlled nearly all of the bijū as well as incredible Genjutsu, but could also use the Mokuton Ninjutsu hundreds of times more proficiently than Yamato - who makes cliffs and building at his whim. Hashirama's power was the sort that conquered the world, tamed the fiercest beasts, and then gave it all back for a laugh. Over a century later, Madara is still in awe of this man's shadow.

*3. Prime Madara Uchiha*

The elderly Tsuchikage said the shadow of this man's legacy could destroy the entire modern world. Madara is a name feared throughout the world, almost myth, and he possessed the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and, with it, controlled the all but invincible Kyūbi like a pet. He is the most knowledgeable character in the series and his ambivalent observance of terrifying techniques like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano'o, and Izanagi only hints at his great power. Itachi said it best: Madara is an invincible immortal, and he commands space time jutsu that makes Minato Namikaze look slow.

*4. Hebi Kabuto Yakushi*

You will later see that I found Orochimaru to have truly limitless potential, but his undeniable weakness and fault was undiluted arrogance. Kabuto, on the other hand, seems to have grasped Orochimaru's genius and ability while also maintaining a certain modesty albeit against the legendary Madara. He now possesses greater power than all of Akatsuki combined and trails the heels of the ancient titans who wielded bijū as pets. However, should Kabuto continue to amass power while cherishing Orochimaru's immortality: Madara and Hashirama will be but ants. 

*5. Kyūbi Sennin Naruto Uzamaki*

Naruto has come a long way. His Ninjutsu has surpassed his father by leaps and bounds - the Fuuton Rasenshuriken makes the old variant look pitiful. He has surpassed Jiraiya in the Sage arts. He commands all of the chakra of the Kyūbi and has shown to use this to summon an entire village of toads. He has been given power from both Minato and Itachi. After fighting such a masterfully balanced warrior, only the above names could truly wrestle with the full force of the Nine Tailed Fox afterward, which consequently revives Naruto should he regain control. We've seen but the tip of the iceberg when the wicked Kyūbi chakra combines with natural energy: a tremendous force will be unleashed.

*6. Nagato's Pain Rikudō*

Through this technique, Nagato brought Konoha to its knees, grappled with the Kyūbi, and then resurrected the fallen village. It should be said, however, that Konoha was considerably weakened from its past and that this technique is very situational - requiring Nagato to be at a nearby elevated location, entrenched in complex machinery, and preparing deceased bodies beforehand by inserting them with the numerous metallic strips to receive transmitted chakra. Still, he uses this technique frequently, and thus it is counted more heavily than Orochimaru's Edo Tensei that is often bypassed due to the Snake Sanin's languid arrogance. 

*7. Healthy Itachi Uchiha*

The databook says that Itachi's talent could only truly be comprehended by people at his level. Uchiha Madara said that Itachi consistently amazed him even after death. This was a man who kept Madara in check for the ten years Konoha lay weakened from the failed assault on the Kyūbi. He is quite frequently regarded as one of the very strongest purely from what we have seen despite Zetsu believing him to be _severely injured_ beforehand because he fought at a far lower level than his norm. He alone carried on Minato's burden to defeat Uchiha Madara and sacrificed his great potential to give Sasuke the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and its mysterious jutsu.

*8. Hiraishin Minato Namikaze*

A genius that is only vaguely rivaled by Uchiha Itachi. Similar to Itachi, we have but vague statements of his true power, but we do know that he stood against the Kyūbi and utterly foiled the weakened Madara's assault. Jiraiya, a power in himself, regards Minato as the Hokage with the potential to be the greatest shinobi in the world. Despite this, he sacrificed that massive potential to save the village and give Naruto the key to defeating Madara: the sealed Kyūbi and a blueprint for a mysterious jutsu.

*9. Taka Sasuke Uchiha*

Sasuke is a talented user of the Mangekyō Sharingan. He is a jack of all trades: Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu, but his wrath makes him significantly weaker than he should be. Still, at this point, there aren't many who can approach his power. He had seemed to perfect Susano'o to Itachi's level before his eyes gave out, but we did catch a glimpse of an _Amaterasu arrrow_, which would fit with his Ninjutsu orientation. If he were to relinquish his blinding hatred, he would be nearly invincible with the combinations of Lightning and Mangekyō techniques coupled with general Genjutsu and Kuchiyose.


*Spoiler*: _To Be Continued_ 



10. Shisui Danzō Shimura
11. Edo Orochimaru Sannin
12. Hachimon Maito Gai
13. Hermit Jiraiya Sanin
14. Fused Kisame Hoshigaki
15. V2 Kirābī 
16. Mangekyō Kakashi Hatake
17. Aerial Deidara 
18. Sasori of the Red Sand


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Actually, that's a...quite good list. I'd just put Danzo more even with Sasuke as he was rather gimped in their fight by being unable to use Shisui's eye.
One correction: His surname is Shimura


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## Shinobi66 (Mar 29, 2010)

Awesome list.


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## Sanbi (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> 9. Danzō Shisui
> 10. Edo Orochimaru
> 11. Hachimon Gai
> 12. Hermit Jiraiya
> ...


My respect has dropped for you Solomon, if you put Gai above ninja's like Jiraiya, Kisame, Kirabi and Kakashi. I understand that his 6 Gates could 1HKO alot of people with the exception of durability freaks like fused Kisame, HM Jiraiya and V2 Kirabi. But this is the strongest ninjas, not the person with the best techs that can 1HKO someone.

I know I can't argue with you about Oro over Jiraiya and Itachi getting a real high spot, since we have argued about it multiple times, but Gai over people like Sasori?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Seeing Kisame above Deidara , Jiraiya, Orochimaru or Kakashi is hilarious
> Hell, Kakashi below GAI?



Deidara's C1 and C2 would be virtually useless against Kisame. C3 poses a threat, as does C4, but as long as Kisame remains underwater and has his insane regen, he should be able to survive both, perhaps even trap Deidara in the water dome unless the dude is at some insane altitude to begin with.

Jiraiya? Kisame went toe-to-toe with Killer Bee and by all rights would have been the winner had Samehada not betrayed him and had Raikage not intervened. As a firm believer of the "Jiraiya=Orochimaru" reasoning, I really think it's reasonable as hell for Kisame to be considered stronger than Jiraiya after seeing what he can do. Potential upset may be Magen: Gamarinshou, if it works underwater and Kisame doesn't really make a point of interfering with the duet.

Orochimaru had enough difficulty with Yonbi Naruto, albeit in a weakened host. What's he going to do against Street Shark Kisame, in an UNDERWATER battle? I'll tell you: He's going to do nothing. He's going to die. Potential upsets may be Oohebi Form and Fushi Tensei, if he can use it.

Kakashi? This is where I have to ask...are you serious, brah? Itachi flat-out stated Kisame would definitely win and at best only sustain injury in the process. Furthermore...really, shit, you serious? Kisame actually held his own against Killer Bee and Kakashi is somehow anything more than a stain on some Chuunin's underwear compared to him? Lolno. Kisame takes this in base form, dude, Shark Fusion not even needed.


As for Kakashi and Gai...Gai flat-out stated he was stronger than Kakashi. The Hachimon are said to grant the one who opens them power that exceeds "the Hokage" (which likely referred to Sarutobi, since he was the contemporary Hokage), and that's just as a general rule, so what of Gai? What happens when HE opens them? His performance against the Kisame Shouten...cements the fact that he would absolutely stomp Kakashi...in a fight where the use of Gates was even marginally involved.


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## ? (Mar 29, 2010)

kisame is not stronger than jiraiya, Nikushimi.

FACT: jiraiya already basically one-shoted kisame ( if not for itachi he wouldn't have escaped).


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> My respect has dropped for you Solomon, if you put Gai above ninja's like Jiraiya, Kisame, Kirabi and Kakashi. I understand that his 6 Gates could 1HKO alot of people with the exception of durability freaks like fused Kisame, HM Jiraiya and V2 Kirabi. But this is the strongest ninjas, not the person with the best techs that can 1HKO someone.
> 
> I know I can't argue with you about Oro over Jiraiya and Itachi getting a real high spot, since we have argued about it multiple times, but Gai over people like Sasori?



Eight Gates Gai can't beat Sasori? I'm going to complete my explanations in due time. There are a few ninjas up there with only one trick, but it doesn't stop them from being up there though.



Lightysnake said:


> Actually, that's a...quite good list. I'd just put Danzo more even with Sasuke as he was rather gimped in their fight by being unable to use Shisui's eye. One correction: His surname is Shimura



I put Shisui to remind people that we didn't see what that very hyped Genjutsu in action.


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## Sanbi (Mar 29, 2010)

Beating someone is not the same as being a better ninja. I told you, having the best 1HKO move doesn't mean you are a stronger ninja. 

So what if Gai beats Itachi with the Eight Gates open. Does that mean he is stronger, or a better ninja? Hypothetically speaking.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Yes, but IMHO, Susano'o or Genjutsu would allow Itachi to survive.


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## Lightysnake (Mar 29, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Deidara's C1 and C2 would be virtually useless against Kisame. C3 poses a threat, as does C4, but as long as Kisame remains underwater and has his insane regen, he should be able to survive both, perhaps even trap Deidara in the water dome unless the dude is at some insane altitude to begin with.


Doton>Suiton, sorry. And C3 can wipe out a Hidden Village or at least a substantial part. Kisame does NOT have that regen. Underwater, his explosions still work as he damaged the Sanbi with a C1. C2? CS2 Sasuke has better durability feats.
And in base form, Kisame is slaughtered

And C2>Kisame as well. He's shown no durability feats-just healing.
C4 also works underwater. Does Kisame breathe? Yes. Then he'll disintegrate




> Jiraiya? Kisame went toe-to-toe with Killer Bee and by all rights would have been the winner had Samehada not betrayed him and had Raikage not intervened. As a firm believer of the "Jiraiya=Orochimaru" reasoning, I really think it's reasonable as hell for Kisame to be considered stronger than Jiraiya after seeing what he can do. Potential upset may be Magen: Gamarinshou, if it works underwater and Kisame doesn't really make a point of interfering with the duet.


Good god, do you not read the recent chapters/
Jiraiya= Oro...in BASE, btw. In the chapter where they actually did fight, Jiraiya had Kisame dead to rights. He needed Itachi to escape
And Kisame's fighting style is merely suited to Jinchuuriki. Not to people like Jiraiya



> Orochimaru had enough difficulty with Yonbi Naruto, albeit in a weakened host. What's he going to do against Street Shark Kisame, in an UNDERWATER battle? I'll tell you: He's going to do nothing. He's going to die. Potential upsets may be Oohebi Form and Fushi Tensei, if he can use it.


Well, let's see. Orochimaru cna kind of escape that pretty easily with his extension plus body spit combo. Yonbi Naruto is also a titanically difficult opponent against...ohhhhh...nearly anyone? And hey, very fast extending Kusanagi, poisonous blood, etc



> Kakashi? This is where I have to ask...are you serious, brah? Itachi flat-out stated Kisame would definitely win and at best only sustain injury in the process. Furthermore...really, shit, you serious? Kisame actually held his own against Killer Bee and Kakashi is somehow anything more than a stain on some Chuunin's underwear compared to him? Lolno. Kisame takes this in base form, dude, Shark Fusion not even needed.


He stated this where?

Again, Kisame is suited to fighting Jinchuuriki. This does not equal A>B>C. Kakashi is faster, has better ninjutsu, has Sharingan prediction, can kill him instantly with Kamui if he wants...hell, raiton REALLY hurts Kisame



> As for Kakashi and Gai...Gai flat-out stated he was stronger than Kakashi. The Hachimon are said to grant the one who opens them power that exceeds "the Hokage" (which likely referred to Sarutobi, since he was the contemporary Hokage), and that's just as a general rule, so what of Gai? What happens when HE opens them? His performance against the Kisame Shouten...cements the fact that he would absolutely stomp Kakashi...in a fight where the use of Gates was even marginally involved.



If that works, then so does Kamui.
Meaning when Gai tries to go into Gates, his head is gone

And Kakashi post time skip>Hiruzen. And Gai. Wow, Kakashi's rival stated he was stronger than Kakashi, it MUST BE TRUE!....oh, no, wait. Kakashi has better stats, feats and abilities


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## Sanbi (Mar 29, 2010)

Soloman said:


> Yes, but IMHO, Susano'o or Genjutsu would allow Itachi to survive.


So, if Itachi was killed by Gai when he used the Eight gates that would make him the better and stronger ninja using your logic correct? I just want a conformation about this.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 29, 2010)

Continuing my list:

*10. Shisui Danzō Shimura*

I dubbed him Danzō Shisui because his most terrifying strength was one that we were never allowed to see in combat - as of yet anyways. The brand of Genjutsu Danzō's Sharingan possessed could only be rivaled by a mastered Tsukuyomi or the Genjutsu of the wisest Sages. It made even the strongest Kages bend to his will and Madara allegedly possesses something similar and used it on the talented Jinchuriki and Mizukage, Yagura. It was his desire to wield the Kyūbi  like a pet and he most certainly could have, but the author thought an invincible opponent demonstrating terrifyingly advanced paralysis Fuinjutsu and Fuutons was quite sufficient for the burgeoning superpower that was Sasuke. It should also be noted that when using his Sharingan, he easily dodged Sasuke's attacks and was frighteningly fast.

*11. Edo Orochimaru Sannin*

Orochimaru possessed unlimited potential. An immortal who could harness all the power of the past. Had he been as cautious as Nagato, Orochimaru could have used Edo Tensei and confronted each and everyone of his opponents with several invincible Hokage allies at his back. Unfortunately, if Orochimaru possessed one flaw, it was his damned arrogance. In his time he underestimated three individuals: an eleven year old boy, a feeble old man, and a blind, exhausted, ill, injured warrior. It was cruel fate that the eleven year old was the most brilliant prodigy ever introduced, the old man possessed the Death God at his back, and the blind warrior had an item of immense power that Orochimaru himself had spent countless years searching for. Still, the man has bested Death, and could transform in to a serpent God that is mythologically comparable to the Kyubi. Kabuto will show us what Orochimaru _could have been_ when deadly serious.

*12. Hachimon Maito Gai*

I believe that Gai, given his mastery of being able to use Six Gates without dire side effects, is capable of opening at least one more. Kakashi said that this would unlock power _greater than any Hokage_, but I truly believe that Gai is quite invincible if you're only method of attack is the physical plane. You need both an absolute defensive or evasive tactic to buy time as well as a cunning offense to survive against this man. I eagerly await the day we see Gai go all out in battle. 

*13. Hermit Jiraiya Sannin*

Jiraiya is the closest thing to a Superman we have after Hashirama and Naruto. His durability is incredible, his strength terrifying, and he moves very, very well. In my opinion, he is a slightly watered down Ē with a large arsenal of Ninjutsu and summoned backup. When including a fused Ma and Pa, Jiraiya becomes a shinobi that has the deadliest Genjutsu, Ninjutsu, and Taijutsu available to him. In order to defeat him, you need a significantly cunning or deadly technique. In my humble opinion, the above names possess sufficient means to kill this versatile opponent in most scenarios, but the below do not.

*14. Fused Kisame Hoshigaki*

An overwhelming power. In a split second, you can be encased in billions of gallons of water, helpless. Your opponent is renowned for his superhuman strength in his lesser form, but as a beast he can tear you limb from limb with little effort and is frighteningly fast in the environment he brings with him. On his arms are spikes. Should these pierce you, he can drain an entire Bijuu's supply of chakra in mere moments, which means that those with very human supplies can be rendered helpless should he scrape you. We haven't seen him aim to kill, but should he do so, he will use Suitons with deadly force, and has a Bijuu's worth of chakra to do so. If you do manage to land a hit, he regenerates at incredible rates, and most physical attacks are more or less obsolete.

*15. V2 Kirābī*

To the untrained eye: V2 Kirabi is all but invincible. A thick, dark layer of armor that is hauntingly reminiscent of KN4 encases his being and he moves across surfaces, seemingly pushed by an unknown force, and rips open the torsos of those he hits _when most of the force is absorbed_. Like Hachimon Gai, this is not an opponent that can be assaulted head on. Incredible defensive or evasive techniques are needed as well as powerful, cunning techniques.   

*16. Mangekyō Kakashi Hatake*

Kakashi is paralleled to Hiruzen Sarutobi IMHO. Ignoring that they were both perverts who adopted the bell test and had similar pupils with similar problems, they both have huge lexicons of techniques at their disposal. One of the greatest geniuses in the manga, it isn't Kakashi's ability to trick his opponents and demonstrate brilliant tactics, but the power of his Mangekyō Sharingan that puts him here without a doubt. He has most recently shown that he can instantly remove an enormous arrow from time and space that moves faster than his body can react to. Kakashi is a terrifying opponent limited only by finite stamina, which is by no means weak any longer, but remains his singular limitation.

*17. Gaara of the Desert*

Once upon a time Gaara seemed to be weak against fast opponents. That is no longer the case as he effortlessly stopped Ē in his tracks and kept up with Deidara in aerial combat while defending his entire village. His reactions are so sharp and his defense is so complete that he can stop an explosion point blank in his face in a fraction of a second. He truly has become more than any Kazekage before him. Not even Deidara flying at full speed could escape his nimbus sand, which crushes body parts effortlessly. Should you somehow hit him, he has invisible armor that can tank a partial Hachimon assault without a scratch.

*18. Aerial Deidara*

When Deidara died, Nagato was both angered and saddened. He strictly _ordered_ a moment of respect, and silence for the artist's power. Deidara is only this low because he is relatively vulnerable on the ground and, like Orochimaru, is quite curious and talkative when in battle. Nonetheless, he possesses the power to wipe out entire countries with minimal effort and can easily trump the immense strength of a bijū. His exploding clone jutsu is terrifying and that alone can wipe out fantastically powerful opponents.


*Spoiler*: _To be continued_ 




19. Sasori of the Red Sand
20. Prime Hiruzen


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## daschysta (Mar 30, 2010)

Nikushimi said:


> Deidara's C1 and C2 would be virtually useless against Kisame. C3 poses a threat, as does C4, but as long as Kisame remains underwater and has his insane regen, he should be able to survive both, perhaps even trap Deidara in the water dome unless the dude is at some insane altitude to begin with.
> 
> Jiraiya? Kisame went toe-to-toe with Killer Bee and by all rights would have been the winner had Samehada not betrayed him and had Raikage not intervened. As a firm believer of the "Jiraiya=Orochimaru" reasoning, I really think it's reasonable as hell for Kisame to be considered stronger than Jiraiya after seeing what he can do. Potential upset may be Magen: Gamarinshou, if it works underwater and Kisame doesn't really make a point of interfering with the duet.
> 
> ...



Itachi didn't state kisame would win for sure until after kakashi was already weakened by tsukiyomi, just that he would be quicker and stating that kisame would be injured implies that it is not really a sure thing. Even if you believe kakashi to be equal to his part one self in all but stamina and kamui (though all evidence sans databooks seem to point to an all around increase) kakashi would still win, as kisame is one of the opponents that would inarguably be raped by kamui. Every good thing that kisame has other than stamina is completely predicated on an object that can be insta kamuid faster than kisame should be able to react. If kakashi were to kamui samehada then kisame instantly loses the one thing that prevents him from being raped by Raikiri to the heart faster than he can say "lariat". Not to mention raiton bunshin would also rape him in this situation.


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## gkrt (Mar 30, 2010)

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi (Prime)
3. Hashirama Senju/Madara Uchiha
4. Madara Uchiha/Hashirama Senju
5. Pain
6. Itachi Uchiha
7. Raikage
8. Killer Bee
9. Danzo
10. Naruto Uzumaki/Sasuke Uchiha
11. Sasuke Uchiha/Naruto Uzumaki
12. Sasori/Minato Namikaze
13. Minato Namikaze/Sasori
14. Jiraiya
15. Kisame Hoshigaki/Tobirama Senju
16. Tobirama Senju/Kisame Hoshigaki
17. Orochimaru
18. Deidara
19. Kakuzu
20. Tsunade


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## Phoenix Zoro (Mar 30, 2010)

1. Rikudo
2. Shodai
3. Madara
4. Prime Hiruzen
5. Nagato/Pain
6. Minato
7. Itachi
8. Killerbee
9. Danzo
10. Jiraiya
11. Sasuke
12. Naruto
13. Orochimaru
14. Prime Onoki
15. Raikage
16. Tobirama
17. Hanzo
18. Sasori
19. Kakuzu
20. Mei

Notables:
21. Sakumo
22. Kisame
23. Kakashi
24. Gaara
25. Tsunade


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## babylinkz (Mar 30, 2010)

im starting to think there is some online crack some of you are smoking while writing these things, jugo should be taken off the list, NOW!  itachi should be above naruto, come on guys. Sasori and Kakuzu should be up there, their old and have solo'd villages. both where beaten fighting aginst more then one person, and thats the only reason they where beaten. and the OP put danzu at the bottom of the list, good lord, re-read the manga please


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## beij (Mar 30, 2010)

i am leaving Rikudo sage or the list to avoid conflict, as i feel there are a few current sharingan users who could defeat him, but dont want to have conflict over this at the moment. also leaving out the senju's and minato, as they are overated and barely make the top 20

1 Uchiha Madara
2 Shimura Danzo
3 Uchiha Sasuke
4 Nagato/6 paths of Pain
5 Sasori
6 Gaara
7 Hatake Kakashi
8 Uchiha Itachi
9 Hoshigake Kisame
10 Killer B
11 Kakuzu
12 Deidara
13 Uzamaki Naruto
14 orochimaru/Kabuto (probably should be higher)
15 Jiraiya
16 A (Raikage)
17 Maito Gai (possibly above A in high gates)
18 Torune
19 Tsunade
20 Hidan/Konan/Zetsu

whatever if i missed anybody or anything

Kakuzu should probably be higher as well


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

1.ridikuo sage
2.madara uchiha
3.Harishama
4.pein
5.uchiha itachi
6.naruto
7.sasuke
8.minato
9.orochimaru
10.kazakage garra
11.jiraiya
12.prime sarutobi
13.diedarra
14.killer bee
15.gai
16.sasori
17.kakashi
18.raikage
19.kabuto
20.tsunade

I put madara over harishama because he took on the whole leaf village and the uchiha clan, of course with the help of the 9 tails but thats still pretty impressive, not to mention there were 2 hokages in office at the time, also we dont have the full story on how he was defeated but im sure we will and im positive he did not have the ability he now has, to have a better space time jutsu then minato and have acces to a sharingon is just ridiculous


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 30, 2010)

Madara didn't take on the entire Konoha or the Uchiha clan. He used the Kyuubi to invade Konoha 15 years ago, and during the Uchiha massacre he only _helped_ kill the Uchihas. And during the Kyuubi invasion, Sandaime had retired IIRC.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara didn't take on the entire Konoha or the Uchiha clan. He used the Kyuubi to invade Konoha 15 years ago, and during the Uchiha massacre he only _helped_ kill the Uchihas. And during the Kyuubi invasion, Sandaime had retired IIRC.






^madara and the kyubi fought the whole village and uchiha was part of konoha


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## Lightysnake (Mar 30, 2010)

That's a figure of speech. We've only had it ever confirmed he fought Hashirama


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> That's a figure of speech. We've only had it ever confirmed he fought Hashirama



Please prove it i dont see why it would be a figure of speech? it makes sense that he would need the 9tails by his side to challenge konoha



another translation that says the exact same thing


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## Sanbi (Mar 30, 2010)

Do you see any other ninja's in that fight? Besides challenging Konoha, naturally the Hokage would be the first to take on the threat, so it is likely Shodai was the first and last to fight Madara.

"Even Hashirama was Convinced" implying that only the Shodai was the one who fought him.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 30, 2010)

Actually, "even Hashirama was convinced" could imply the opposite.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Do you see any other ninja's in that fight? Besides challenging Konoha, naturally the Hokage would be the first to take on the threat, so it is likely Shodai was the first and last to fight Madara.
> 
> "Even Hashirama was Convinced" implying that only the Shodai was the one who fought him.



Are you serious? i provided 2 seperate links where madara says the same thing if you realy think shodai can beat madara and the 9 tails at the same time then all i can say is wow, anyways i take madaras word over other peoples opinions and it makes perfect sense he would need the 9 tails to take on the whole village. Of course they ended up fighting at the valley of the end one on one but we dont know all the details reguarding there fight but from analyzing this and madara's present ability now i put him over shodai


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## Sanbi (Mar 30, 2010)

So if we don't know the details why are we arguing over it?  Or even bring it up for that matter. 

People shouldn't base their whole arguments over something we don't have the full details regarding the situation.

If we don't know the full details regarding the situation I can make assumptions as well. Do you really think it is impossible to assume that a Shodai with 8 Biju in his possession as well as the perfect counter to the Kyubi couldn't defeat a ninja he has defeated/stalemated multiple times as well as something that can be handled by said Mokuton and Biju?


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> So if we don't know the details why are we arguing over it?  Or even bring it up for that matter.
> 
> People shouldn't base their whole arguments over something we don't have the full details regarding the situation.
> 
> If we don't know the full details regarding the situation I can make assumptions as well. Do you really think it is impossible to assume that a Shodai with 8 Biju in his possession as well as the perfect counter to the Kyubi couldn't defeat a ninja he has defeated/stalemated multiple times as well as something that can be handled by said Mokuton and Biju?



We have what madara said and thats what im going off he clearly states he took on konoha with the 9 tailed fox, Now shodai did not have 8 biju in his possession he divided the bijuu among nations for balance, and like i said i don't see shodai soloing a person who possess ems and the 9tails at once im sry


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## Sanbi (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> We have what madara said and thats what im going off he clearly states he took on konoha with the 9 tailed fox, Now shodai did not have 8 biju in his possession he divided the bijuu among nations for balance, and like i said i don't see shodai soloing a person who possess ems and the 9tails at once im sry


Because Madara is a really honest person we can trust right?  And in the same exact panel he says that, we only see him fighting the Hokage, who is supposed to protect the village. Coincidence?  I think not. Like you said, we don't know the exact details of the fight so why are you stating as if you know what happened?

He divided the Biju after his fight with Madara, which means he had Biju in possession during his reign as Hokage and before/during his fight with Madara. We even see during the fight he has *8* weapons behind him along with a summoning scroll. What else is there for Hashirama to summon?   Obviously in the panel Madara and Shodai were the only ones fighting, so why can't he beat Madara when he already has. Like I said Hashirama was beating MS Madara without any Biju, so what makes you think someone who controls 8 Biju, beat MS Madara in the past, and can control the Kyubi as well can't beast Madara.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Because Madara is a really honest person we can trust right?  And in the same exact panel he says that, we only see him fighting the Hokage, who is supposed to protect the village. Coincidence?  I think not. Like you said, we don't know the exact details of the fight so why are you stating as if you know what happened?
> 
> He divided the Biju after his fight with Madara, which means he had Biju in possession during his reign as Hokage and before/during his fight with Madara. We even see during the fight he has *8* weapons behind him along with a summoning scroll. What else is there for Hashirama to summon?   Obviously in the panel Madara and Shodai were the only ones fighting, so why can't he beat Madara when he already has. Like I said Hashirama was beating MS Madara without any Biju, so what makes you think someone who controls 8 Biju, beat MS Madara in the past, and can control the Kyubi as well can't beast Madara.



Why would madara admit defeat if he was lying? and why would he lie about talking on konoha and failing?  

provide a scan that shows harishama divided the 8 biju after the fight because im not to sure on it


in the panel they were the only ones shown fighting but if you look at the panel they bought look like they have been fighting for a long time who is to say what happened when the fight first broke out all we have are madaras words and he clearly states he took on konoha alone
also i dont count 8 weapons and the scroll could have been to either get those weapons are could have been a scroll used in attempt to seal the 9 tails


and b4 they use to always stalemate where are you getting harishama beating madara b4 there fight at the valley of the end? are you forgetting the 2 clans were in a shinobi world and implying harishama beat madara would mean he killed him.


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## Sanbi (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> Why would madara admit defeat if he was lying? and why would he lie about talking on konoha and failing?


We have no idea what goes on in Madara's head, so I wouldn't completely trust his words, since he might want to twist his words to make Sasuke pity him.

provide a scan that shows harishama divided the 8 biju after the fight because im not to sure on it[/QUOTE]





> in the panel they were the only ones shown fighting but if you look at the panel they bought look like they have been fighting for a long time who is to say what happened when the fight first broke out all we have are madaras words and he clearly states he took on konoha alone


Who is to say that panel didn't show near the end of their fight, and what proof do you have that he fight Konoha on his own. He clearly says that he challenged Konoha. He didn't just go charge in and fight, otherwise their fight would have been nearer to Konoha. So when he challenged them, Hashirama was the one who accepted his challenge and fought to protect his village as his duty as Hokage. 



> also i dont count 8 weapons and the scroll could have been to either get those weapons are could have been a scroll used in attempt to seal the 9 tails


Yes because he needs to seal a Biju with a scroll instead of with Mokuton. Do you see any poofing around the weapons either? Clearly he needs to summon something with that scroll, and the only thing he has is the Biju to summon.




> and b4 they use to always stalemate where are you getting harishama beating madara b4 there fight at the valley of the end? are you forgetting the 2 clans were in a shinobi world and implying harishama beat madara would mean he killed him.


Beat does not mean kill. Also, Hashirama at the very least stalemated an EMS Madara during the times of the clans, so he is not invincible with EMS. The Kyubi could just be sealed with Mokuton, so he would be a non factor. If you don't believe Hashirama beat Madara alone, wouldn't it be logical to assume he had the Biju with him to beat him.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 30, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> We have no idea what goes on in Madara's head, so I wouldn't completely trust his words, since he might want to twist his words to make Sasuke pity him.
> 
> provide a scan that shows harishama divided the 8 biju after the fight because im not to sure on it






Who is to say that panel didn't show near the end of their fight, and what proof do you have that he fight Konoha on his own. He clearly says that he challenged Konoha. He didn't just go charge in and fight, otherwise their fight would have been nearer to Konoha. So when he challenged them, Hashirama was the one who accepted his challenge and fought to protect his village as his duty as Hokage. 


Yes because he needs to seal a Biju with a scroll instead of with Mokuton. Do you see any poofing around the weapons either? Clearly he needs to summon something with that scroll, and the only thing he has is the Biju to summon.



Beat does not mean kill. Also, Hashirama at the very least stalemated an EMS Madara during the times of the clans, so he is not invincible with EMS. The Kyubi could just be sealed with Mokuton, so he would be a non factor. If you don't believe Hashirama beat Madara alone, wouldn't it be logical to assume he had the Biju with him to beat him.[/QUOTE]

the great ninja war was during there times as mercenary's if im not mistaken madara atked konoha when they where under a peace treaty with the uchiha so i don't think senju had possession of 8 bijus when he was hokage.


Because the end of there fight took place near the valley of the end the next page shows a panel of them fighting there and there is no politics involved with this madara didn't knock on konohas front gate with the 9 tails and say harishama i challenge you , he assaulted the whole village and harishama showed up to protect his ppl.

Harishama fought ms madara after madaras brother sacrificed himself the peace treaty came about thats why madara states what did my brother sacrifice himself for.

Now i believe harishama could have somehow defeated ems madara but no way will i believe he could seal the 9 tails and fight madara at the same time if his sealing is anything like yamato's it takes time i dont see a blood lusted  ems madara giving him time Now you have to remeber in a war your fighting to kill so you cannot say beating doesnt imply killing in a war now as i said b4 they stalemated until there fight at the valley of the end


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## Sanbi (Mar 30, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> the great ninja war was during there times as mercenary's if im not mistaken madara atked konoha when they where under a peace treaty with the uchiha so i don't think senju had possession of 8 bijus when he was hokage.


It was after the formation of the Villages. So yeah he had all the Biju under his control at the time since he didn't give them out yet.



> Because the end of there fight took place near the valley of the end the next page shows a panel of them fighting there


Their whole entire fight took place here, since no other areas had the same devastation and destruction VotE had.



> and there is no politics involved with this madara didn't knock on konohas front gate with the 9 tails and say harishama i challenge you , he assaulted the whole village and harishama showed up to protect his ppl.


If he assaulted the Village how exactly did they get all the way near Konoha's Border, and cause no destruction on any other place besides VotE? He said challenged, not attacked. Complete difference. 



> Harishama fought ms madara after madaras brother sacrificed himself the peace treaty came about thats why madara states what did my brother sacrifice himself for.


  You can clearly see that in those two panels.



> Now i believe harishama could have somehow defeated ems madara but no way will i believe he could seal the 9 tails and fight madara at the same time if his sealing is anything like yamato's it takes time i dont see a blood lusted  ems madara giving him time


Except Hashirama was clearly in control of the Kyubi in the panel we were shown of their fight, and combated Madara at the same time. Mokuton allows you to fight more then one opponent at a time. He could stalemate Madara with EMS, so taking care of the Kyubi should be a simple task for him.



> Now you have to remeber in a war your fighting to kill so you cannot say beating doesnt imply killing in a war now as i said b4 they stalemated until there fight at the valley of the end


They were following the orders of the person who hired them, besides Hashirama was not a killer of cold blood.


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## Euraj (Mar 30, 2010)

_1.) Rikudou Sennin
2.) Hashirama Senju/ Madara Uchiha (VotE)
4.) Nagato
5.) Naruto Uzumaki/ Sasuke Uchiha
7.) Hiruzen Sarutobi/ Minato Namikaze
9.) Itachi Uchiha
10.) Salamander Hanzou
11.) Sakumo Hatake
12.) Jiraiya
13.) Kabuto Yakushi
14.) Orochimaru
15.) A/ Killer B
17.) Akasuna no Sasori
18.) Tobirama Senju
19.) Tsunade
20.) Kakashi Hatake _


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## Sakura223 (Mar 31, 2010)

1. Sakura
2. Sauske
4. Sai
5. Orochimaru 
6. Kakashi
7. Akamaru 
8. Kiba
9. Garra
10. Granny Chiyo
11. Rock lee
12. Kimaru
13. Shikamaru
14. Choji
15 tenten


I could only think of 15 


Sorry if any were spelled wrong


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 31, 2010)

Good lord, I'm going to end this.

It's pretty clear from everything Madara has said and facts in Naruto that the Shodaime is superior to Madara. Even if it was just a bit. The Kyuubi shouldn't even be considered in their battle because the Shodaime had the ability to control Bijuus with his Mokuton.


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## Big Mom (Mar 31, 2010)

Strickly by Shown Feats-

1) NAgato
2) Naruto
3) Sasuke
4) Jiraiya
5) Kakuzu
6) Orochimaru
7) Deidara
8) Itachi
9) Tsunade
11) Sasori
12) Danzo
13) Hiruzen
14) Kabuto
15) Kakashi

Only got 15

In terms of actual skill-

1) Nagato
2) Naruto
3) Jiraiya
4) Sasuke
5) Danzo
6) Itachi
7) Orochimaru
8) Kisame
9) Sasori
10) Deidara
11) Tsunade
12) Kabuto
13) Kakashi
14) Gai
15) Chiyo


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## Lelouchprince3 (Mar 31, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> It was after the formation of the Villages. So yeah he had all the Biju under his control at the time since he didn't give them out yet.
> 
> 
> Their whole entire fight took place here, since no other areas had the same devastation and destruction VotE had.
> ...



In the panel i showed you it clearly shows the kyubi facing harishama so why are we to assume harishama had control of it when it was facing him?

why should we assume he only fought harishama when he clearly states he challenged konoha by himself, why not just say he challenged harishama one last time and why go to the extreme and bring the 9 tails to the battle when he is only facing harishama,think about it , you think the rest of the village will standby including the second hokage and watch madara and the 9 tails take on harishama, the answer is no they will attempt to help and protect there leader the same how they wanted to protect the third.

When harishama became hokage they started to establish ninja nations you know like the hidden leaf village,sand village etc, he divided the biju's at that time, madara attacked the leaf village after the nations were establsished so like i said i dont believe harishama controled 8 bijus because if he did it would have been a stomp and not a close battle.

again the picture you showed is ms, madara got upset because when he attained the ems and his brother sacraficed himself they made the peace treaty and that made him upset because he felt like his brother sacrafice was in vein


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## Panos (Mar 31, 2010)

1)Madara
2)Shodai-Nagato
3)Sasuke
4)Itachi
5)Izuna
6)Naruto
7)Sasori
8)Minato
9)Hiruzen
10)Danzo
11)Orochimaru
12)Jiraiya
13)Raikage
14)Kisame
15)Hidan


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> 1)Madara
> 2)Shodai-Nagato
> 3)Sasuke
> 4)Itachi
> ...



How is Sasori above Yondaime Raikage, Danzo and Minato? And Izuna above SM Naruto?


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## Panos (Mar 31, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> How is Sasori above Yondaime Raikage, Danzo and Minato? And Izuna above SM Naruto?



I dont see your point.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2010)

Inu said:


> kisame is not stronger than jiraiya, Nikushimi.



Apparently he's stronger than Killer Bee, who is quite a bit stronger than Jiraiya. So I'd have to disagree with you, I think Kisame has proven he is quite a lot stronger than Jiraiya.



> FACT: jiraiya already basically one-shoted kisame ( if not for itachi he wouldn't have escaped).



There are a couple of problems with this:

1. Jiraiya used that move when Kisame was chasing Naruto; Kisame wasn't even confronting him and was in a situation where he was at a disadvantage (an enclosed space, distanced from Jiraiya, AND facing the wrong way).

2. We don't know that Kisame couldn't have escaped on his own. Remember how Naruto got out of the giant snake's stomach? It's possible Kisame could've flooded his way out and exploded the damn thing. But he was looking to Itachi for a better solution to their problem, which Itachi had, in the form of Amaterasu.



Lightysnake said:


> Doton>Suiton, sorry.



Doesn't mean any Doton user will beat any Suiton user. Unless you can establish how it's significant here, I really don't even see the point in bringing it up.



> And C3 can wipe out a Hidden Village or at least a substantial part. Kisame does NOT have that regen.



The amount of water produced with Suiton: Daibaku Suishouha should be able to cushion enough of the blast for Kisame to survive with his raw durability and regen.



> Underwater, his explosions still work as he damaged the Sanbi with a C1.



He turned his clay bomb into a fish and maneuvered it after the Sanbi. Last I checked, C2 and up weren't fish-type models, so he's reduced to simply dropping them in like depthcharges and hoping to score a hit. Furthermore, we never saw the extent of the damage his C1 did to the Sanbi. It probably wasn't very much.



> C2? CS2 Sasuke has better durability feats.
> And in base form, Kisame is slaughtered
> 
> And C2>Kisame as well. He's shown no durability feats-just healing.



Not necessarily. Base Kisame seems like a sufficient analog to Killer Bee, who has no special durability characteristic for his tier of physical ability. And yet, Bee still does have some amazing durability feats. C2 would injure Kisame when he's in base form, but nothing beyond the point of what Samehada should be able to heal. Especially if he's underwater.



> C4 also works underwater. Does Kisame breathe? Yes. Then he'll disintegrate



Samehada's regen should not only be able to steal the chakra from the bombs that enter him when he's fused, but use that chakra to heal any damage he sustains as well.

In fact, chakra is sapped throughout the entire water dome of Suirou Same Odori no Jutsu. Once the bombs diffused through it, it's very possible they would be rendered inert. Same for all of Deidara's bombs, in fact.



> Good god, do you not read the recent chapters/
> Jiraiya= Oro...in BASE, btw.



Oro had a pretty clear edge over Jiraiya in base. Granted Sennin Jiraiya would fuck the shit out of Oro's base form, Oro has all kinds of crazy shit like the Yamata no Jutsu, Oohebi Form, and Fushi Tensei/Captain Ginyu no Jutsu to bring *many* potential upsets to the table. Overall, they are about even; give Oro some prep, and he might even edge it with Edo Tensei.

This same Orochimaru considered obtaining Itachi's body an impossible dream. Not only that, he explicitly stated that Itachi was outright stronger than him.

Stronger. Than. Him.

Not a conditional statement, a *definitive* one.



> In the chapter where they actually did fight, Jiraiya had Kisame dead to rights. He needed Itachi to escape



We don't know that. Kisame could've possibly escaped any number of ways (Suiton: Daibaku Suishouha, Doton: Douchuu Senkou, possibly raw bestial strength, etc.). He merely relied on Itachi because Itachi evidently had the best answer to the problem.

Moreover, as I mentioned to the other guy above, Kisame wasn't even facing Jiraiya, let alone confronting him, when J-Man initiated that Jutsu. And of course, he was conveniently already in an enclosed space, which is what enabled Jiraiya to gain the upperhand in that situation in the first place.



> And Kisame's fighting style is merely suited to Jinchuuriki. Not to people like Jiraiya



Purely your opinion. As for me personally, I think Jiraiya's just as susceptible to drowning and getting ripped apart by a man-shark with a phallus blade as the next guy.



> Well, let's see. Orochimaru cna kind of escape that pretty easily with his extension plus body spit combo.



Show me a scan of Oro doing this over a distance several *mountains* wide. Not that it matters, since the dome moves. 



> Yonbi Naruto is also a titanically difficult opponent against...ohhhhh...nearly anyone?



Except for most of Akatsuki and any of the other truly higher-tier characters.



> And hey, very fast extending Kusanagi,



Kisame lost his chest and grinned about it before regenerating. This is going to do...what to him, exactly?



> poisonous blood, etc



Paralyzing blood vapors are only in Oohebi form. IF he is able to go into that form, and IF it is the right time for him to use the Fushi Tensei ritual, I will grant that he has a CHANCE of winning with this, albeit a slim one.

But on the whole, Kisame is vastly more powerful than he is, and would WTFROFLstomp him in 99 fights out of 100.



> He stated this where?
> 
> Again, Kisame is suited to fighting Jinchuuriki. This does not equal A>B>C. Kakashi is faster, has better ninjutsu, has Sharingan prediction, can kill him instantly with Kamui if he wants...hell, raiton REALLY hurts Kisame



Or Kisame could just...spit out a lake to take control of the terrain...and smash Kakashi like a fly with one punch.





^Itachi implicitly states that Kisame would beat Kakashi, albeit taking an inconvenient amount of time to do so and with the potential for injury. In the second page there, Itachi states he will accomplish the task faster than Kisame would, which, unless he means he's going to lose faster than Kisame would (which would make no sense and is disproven moments later), means Kisame would in fact ultimately be the winner.



> If that works, then so does Kamui.
> Meaning when Gai tries to go into Gates, his head is gone



Deidara with no arms can dodge it. Gai kicks Kakashi in half WHILE Kamui is trying to warp him away.



> And Kakashi post time skip>Hiruzen.



...What. Hiruzen would stomp the shit out of Kakashi, old or not.



> And Gai. Wow, Kakashi's rival stated he was stronger than Kakashi, it MUST BE TRUE!



It's explicitly stated. And Gai happens to know a technique that grants any old schmoe lucky enough to learn it temporary power greater than the Sandaime Hokage, who fought fairly even with the same guy that Kakashi could only freeze up in terror when faced with. I don't know how much more you can ask for than that.



> ....oh, no, wait. Kakashi has better stats, feats and abilities



Better stats? No one can really argue whose stats are "better." Gai is a Taijutsu specialist, Kakashi is more of a jack-of-all-trades with a strong lean towards Ninjutsu. You can't really make a sufficient comparison between them based on the very general eight-category, five-tier system, particularly when their styles are so different.

Better feats? Gai's performance against the Kisame Shouten puts anything Kakashi has ever done to utter shame.

Abilities? Again, Kakashi is only Gai's "EQUAL MANLY RIVAL" insofar as his base abilities are concerned. Should the Hachimon enter the equation at ANY point in time, it becomes a clear and absolute stomp in Gai's favor.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 1, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Itachi didn't state kisame would win for sure until after kakashi was already weakened by tsukiyomi, just that he would be quicker and stating that kisame would be injured implies that it is not really a sure thing.



Itachi implicitly states, BEFORE using Tsukuyomi or any other attack, that Kisame would "take time, potentially attract other shinobi", and that they didn't go there so he could get "injured." Itachi goes on to state that he will accomplish _*something*_ "faster" than Kisame. Unless that something is losing, which is in stark contrast with the royal ass-handing Itachi gives Kakashi only seconds later, then it quite lucidly implies that Kisame would ultimately defeat Kakashi, with some degree of difficulty.



> Even if you believe kakashi to be equal to his part one self in all but stamina and kamui (though all evidence sans databooks seem to point to an all around increase)



Definitely his Stamina has improved and Kamui is a big bonus, but it's still not enough to put him on an armless Deidara's level, let alone Orochimaru's level, let alone Kisame's.



> kakashi would still win, as kisame is one of the opponents that would inarguably be raped by kamui. Every good thing that kisame has other than stamina is completely predicated on an object that can be insta kamuid faster than kisame should be able to react. If kakashi were to kamui samehada then kisame instantly loses the one thing that prevents him from being raped by Raikiri to the heart faster than he can say "lariat". Not to mention raiton bunshin would also rape him in this situation.



Kakashi would have to be extremely lucky with his aim, fighting on top of moving water. He'd also be pretty exhausted after using Kamui, and as shown when he warped away Sasuke's Susano'o arrow, he can't use it in immediate succession, so there would be an opening for Kisame to move in for the kill even IF Samehada got warped away. Although, depending on how far Kamui sends Samehada, it may just return to Kisame seconds/minutes later from afar.

And, Raiton: Raikage Bunshin wouldn't do anything except stun Kisame. Not only that, but as long as we're on the subject of clones, I should mention that Kisame can use those too, and in considerably larger number than Kakashi can thanks to his massive Stamina reserves.


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## daschysta (Apr 1, 2010)

Samehada really should not be a problem at all if he can warp two of sasuke's super duper fast susanoo arrows at once faster than his body can react. Kisame hasn't  really shown any super impressive speed feats that imply he would be able to dodge such an attack. It is obvious that both his aim and speed have improved with it immensely since deidara was able to evade it. Instead of using arcane feats use instead the very recent uses of kamui. And kakashi shouldnt be too exausted after just using it to warp samehada. At the very least we know that he would be able to follow it up with another kamui which kisame honestly imo has not shown the feats to be able to avoid, especially in the case of no longer having samehada to augment his speed in the water. In any case kakashi shouldnt be tired enough to be instantly raped or anything after using kamui once on something not so l arge as samehada as kisame has not shown one thing that is really any threat to kakashi that doesnt involve his sword. Kishi has to put kakashi against opponents in situations where kamui is not just instarape for a reason, he has just gave kakashi an attack so power that any use other than for defense or as a last resort would be boring and anticlimactic. HOWEVER kishimoto does keep telling us how great it is and assumptions that he can't warp a person are stupid when kakashi himself says he would have done so to kakuzu even after a long battle and that he could warp away all of asura (speed feats and all) had he had more chakras. Him instantly warping away sasuke's deadliest and fastest (and huge might I add) attack despite being suprised by it cements it as an attack that is among the most dangerous in the narutoverse. If you dont have some specific dimensional hack then PNJ is really the only reason you survive kamui. PNJ doesnt really exist in the bdome and kakashi would use kamui on samehada as soon as he realizes the massive amounts of rape that sword could unleash on his chakra reserves. This would be the end of the battle for kisame.

Kamui as it stands now (before it is nerfed just like amaterasu) puts kakashi above people like kisame imo.

Also of course raiton kage bunshin would only stun kisame, the idea is to follow up with a raikiri to the heart, you dont need to be stunned for more than in instant for the best assasin in naruto to knock you off.
As for kisame's cloning abilities it is ooc for kisame to use many of them against just one opponent and kakashi can distinguish between them easily as they are just mizu bunshin. Neji was able to dispose of kisame's 30 percent ones very easily, though this battle ends if kakashi is caught in waterprison.


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## Dim Mak (Apr 1, 2010)

1. Rikudo 
2. Shodai
3. Madara
4. Nagato
5. Jiraiya
6. Itachi
7. Minato
8. Naruto/Sasuke
9. Sasuke/Naruto
10. Killer Bee
11. Hiruzen (Prime)
12. Orochimaru
13. Sasori
14. Tobirama
15. Kisame
16. Kakashi
17. Deidara
18. Raikage
19. Gaara
20. Tsunade

Missed some names. I'll post my motivation later.


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## Big Mom (Apr 1, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> 1)Madara
> 2)Shodai-Nagato
> 3)Sasuke
> 4)Itachi
> ...


Oh god I am going to have fun with this post.
First off, it has been stated that Hashirama> MAdara and Madara confirms it. Secondly  if MAdara and Izuna were stated to be equals, then why is Madara stronger? THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT MADARA HAS GOTTEN STRONGER.

I hope you realize that an 8-tailed naruto could kick Sasuke's ass. 

Danzo now has the sharigans and every other technique he had when he was Hiruzen's pair yet Hiruzen is still above him?

Kisame could kick many people's asses on that list, not just hidan. Wait, Kakuzu isnt on that list, yet Hidan is? Even Deidara isnt on there or Tsunade or KAbuto yet HIDAN is?

Why are Jiraiya, Danzo, Hiruzen, Sasori, KIsame, and Orochimaru so low? I hardley think Sasuke or Naruto(no tails) has surpassed any of them. 

HAsn't it been stated that Itachi>Sasuke still?

Also, Danzo mind you could kick Sasori's butt let aone Kisame and Orochimaru.

And at the person above me, where is Danzo?


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## Dim Mak (Apr 1, 2010)

@ ^

Oh shit, forgot him completely.
Don't know where to put him, where do you think i should put him?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Oh god I am going to have fun with this post.
> First off, it has been stated that Hashirama> MAdara and Madara confirms it. Secondly  if MAdara and Izuna were stated to be equals, then why is Madara stronger? THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT MADARA HAS GOTTEN STRONGER.
> 
> I hope you realize that an 8-tailed naruto could kick Sasuke's ass.
> ...



Nah, Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya. Fukasaku confirmed it, before the battle with Pain. And before seeing FRS in action. Orochimaru was around Jiraiya's level of strength, so it's safe to say Naruto surpassed him too. Sasuke is Naruto's equal, hence making him stronger than the Sannin too.

Sasuke beat Danzo without a completed Susano'o and after a battle with the Kages. He's definitely a fair bit strongern ow.

Sasori wouldn't stand a chance against Naruto or Sasuke. Susano'o and SM are too powerful for his Puppets to do anything against. 

Danzo only said Itachi was above Sasuke in terms of Genjutsu offenses, not defenses. Even yet, Sasuke beat Danzo using his much inferior Tsukuyomi. Sasuke was around Itachi's level everywhere else except Ninjutsu where Sasuke pathetically overpowers his brother.

Ninjutsu is the strongest stat for both, but Sasuke is better, and his Stamina is also a fair bit higher. Itachi's advantages in Taijutsu and Speed are mostly minimal and the only actual physical advantage he ever had over Sasuke was his hand-seal speed.


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## Big Mom (Apr 1, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> Nah, Naruto has surpassed Jiraiya. Fukasaku confirmed it, before the battle with Pain. And before seeing FRS in action. Orochimaru was around Jiraiya's level of strength, so it's safe to say Naruto surpassed him too. Sasuke is Naruto's equal, hence making him stronger than the Sannin too.
> 
> Sasuke beat Danzo without a completed Susano'o and after a battle with the Kages. He's definitely a fair bit strongern ow.
> 
> ...




But personally, I don't think stats mean much in a real fight. While Sasuke's MS is weak, Itachi's is in full bloom and mastered. And MS is surley nothing to laugh at. And could turn the tide of any fight.

Sasuek only beat Danzo through the help of Karin and Madara.

While I can agree with Sasori losing, I don't think KIsame or Danzo would fair the same. Kisame could easily absorb the kyuubi chakra while Danzo has fought Sasuke before only there would be no help this time.


@Booya Kun- Put him above Itachi


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## Dim Mak (Apr 1, 2010)

beij said:


> i am leaving Rikudo sage or the list to avoid conflict, as i feel there are a few current sharingan users who could defeat him, but dont want to have conflict over this at the moment. also leaving out the *senju's and minato, as they are overated and barely make the top 20*
> 1 Uchiha Madara
> 2 Shimura Danzo
> 3 Uchiha Sasuke
> ...



Are you really serious? Madara himself stated that Shodai was the strongest opponent he has ever fought. Minato defeated the Kyuubi + Madara (Not quite defeated, but he was the reason why Madara failed to destroy Konoha). Tobirama created edo tensei. They're not overrated.


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## Big Mom (Apr 1, 2010)

beij said:


> i am leaving Rikudo sage or the list to avoid conflict, as i feel there are a few current sharingan users who could defeat him, but dont want to have conflict over this at the moment. also leaving out the senju's and minato, as they are overated and barely make the top 20
> 
> 1 Uchiha Madara
> 2 Shimura Danzo
> ...



I agree mostly with this list except Konan can beat Zetsu and HIdan. And other things I am too lasy to state.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I agree mostly with this list except Konan can beat Zetsu and HIdan. And other things I am too lasy to state.



But, Torune above Tsunade? And Minato not making the Top 20? LOL.


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## Big Mom (Apr 1, 2010)

Atlantic Shinobi said:


> But, Torune above Tsunade? And Minato not making the Top 20? LOL.



I already told you I am too lazy too post. In truth, the only thing I agree with is Danzo's placement.

Actually, I don't agree with anything on that list. excpet Danzo>Itachi. The rest is just... horrible.


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## Smiley (Apr 1, 2010)

Lol @ danzo and sasuke stronger than pain.


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## Sakura♥ (Apr 1, 2010)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> oh right from 21-30 mine are
> 21. Kakashi
> 22. Sasori
> 23. Gaara
> ...


Lol
Suigetsu that high up?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 2, 2010)

*19. Sasori of the Red Sand*

Sasori is an awesome force to behold. Like Orochimaru, his potential is limitless. An immortal who can literally steal the abilities of his opponents. However, we have only seen him with the Sandaime Kazekage, but that power alone puts him among the strongest Kages. Combined with an army of non-human puppets, which has decimated entire countries, Sasori is just short of a god. A single scratch results in your defeat, and he can seamlessly transport his core between hundreds of puppets at his leisure. His drizzles of iron sand can and likely have wiped out entire platoons of skilled shinobi instantly.

*20. Prime Hiruzen*

I do believe his level was reached or surpassed by his young students: the Sanin. He was a master of... everything. However, unlike the above names, he doesn't seem to have possessed any incredibly broken jutsu in his prime and instead relied on using the basic arts at an incredible level. I imagine him as Itachi with more stamina, but without the broken eyes. Thus, I find he would be vulnerable to cunning techniques like Shisui's Genjutsu as well as being capable of being overpowered by those shinobi with more raw power than himself such as Kisame or Kirabi.

*21. Mangekyō Izuna Uchiha*

One of the first to gain the Mangekyō Sharingan. Madara was blinded before him, and thus I believe Izuna was the less experienced of the brothers. Which techniques he possessed are debatable although I wouldn't be surprised if he possessed at least a weak Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. This alone would make him quite the force even if he lacks the rounded Genjutsu skills of Itachi or Ninjutsu skills of Sasuke.

*22. Immortal Tsunade Sannin*

A Leaf ninja said that only another Sanin could stop Orochimaru. Her techniques allow her to be nearly invincible for a large period of time and a single hit from her kills an opponent. If she has improved her speed by any significant margin over the time skip, given that she was out of shape when we last saw her fight, she will be an immensely terrifying opponent. Her summons provide incredible defense and utility, and if she so much as lays a finger on you, your motor functions will be obsolete. Her one weakness is her speed, and frankly, that likely isn't a weakness any longer.

*23. Edo Tobirama Senju*

A watered down hybrid of Kisame and Orochimaru. He could use Edo Tensei, but not as quickly or adeptly as Orochimaru, and could use water Ninjutsu, but not as awesomely as Kisame. He fought many times against the Uchiha and was a valued ally and major force of the Senju clan. It is presumed that he could survive a user of the Mangekyō Sharingan, which is no easy feat in itself. Although how experienced the user was or which techniques he possessed are up to speculation.


*Spoiler*: _To be Continued_ 




24. Hanzō the Salamander
25. Shisui Uchiha
26. Sanbi Yagura 
27. White Fang Sakumo 
28. Electrified Ē
29. Petrified Ōnoki
30. Undead Kakuzu 
31. Saindaime Kazekage
32. Chiyo-Baasama
33. Mizukage Mei




​


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## beij (Apr 2, 2010)

actually my list is accurate, and i accounted for every possible scenario

i left unshown characters, such as the senju, Hanzo, Minato, Rikudo, Sakumo, eic of the list as to avoid confuision, but i do feel the aformentioned shinobi are all overated, and the only shinobi mentioned above that makes the top 10 is Rikudo

by the way, Madara>Rikudo

sharingan>rinnegan


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 2, 2010)

So what you are saying is someone with pretty high speed, the ability to to intangliable but is cursed by the fact he has no offense apart from kicks and punches which he needs to become solid for and warping them inside his dimension(which still doesn't kill them) is stronger than someone who created the moon, made modern Ninjutsu and was the Jinchuriki of the Juubi?


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2010)

beij said:


> actually my list is accurate, and i accounted for every possible scenario
> 
> i left unshown characters, such as the senju, Hanzo, Minato, Rikudo, Sakumo, eic of the list as to avoid confuision, but i do feel the aformentioned shinobi are all overated, and the only shinobi mentioned above that makes the top 10 is Rikudo
> 
> ...



Madara>Rikudo? Are you reading the same manga?


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## Kenshiro (Apr 2, 2010)

Kabuto > Entire Uchiha clan

Haters gonna hate.


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## Sanbi (Apr 2, 2010)

Posting this to edit in later. I took out completly unknowns like Yagura, Hanzo, and Sakumo. I left in people with lots of hype and some feats like Hashirama and Rikudo.

1. Rikudō Sennin
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Pein Rikudō
5. Kabuto Yakushi
6. Minato Namikaze
7. Danzō Shimura
8. Kirābī
9. Jiraiya
10. Itachi Uchiha
11. Orochimaru
12. Kisame Hoshigaki
13/14. Sasuke Uchiha
13/14 Naruto Uzumaki
15 Kakashi Hatake
16. Akasuna no Sasori 
17. Sabaku no Garra
18. Deidara
19. Kakuzu
20. Ē


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## Big Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Posting this to edit in later. I took out completly unknowns like Yagura, Hanzo, and Sakumo. I left in people with lots of hype and some feats like Hashirama and Rikudo.
> 
> 1. Rikudō Sennin
> 2. Hashirama Senju
> ...



Where is prime Hiruzen?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

Pretty good list, Sanbi...though I think you put Kisame too high. He's definitely not only Sasori, Deidara and Kakuzu...he's very good, but only in certain situations where he's tailor made to fight, like against Jinchuuriki.

Also, kinda not sure about Kabuto over Minato...I mean, his new stuff is pretty broken, but have we seen anything to put him on supposed god tier?


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Where is prime Hiruzen?



He took out completely unknown characters.


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## Sakura♥ (Apr 2, 2010)

1. Rikudo
2. Madara
3. Minato
4. Itachi
5. Pain
6. Killer Bee/Kisame
7. Kisame/Killer bee
8. Naruto 
9. Jiraya/Oro
10. Oro/Jiraya
11. Sasuke
12. Kakuzu
13. Kakashi
14. Tsunade
15. Sasori
16. Diedara
17. Can't decide rest


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## Lightysnake (Apr 2, 2010)

I would argue Hiruzen is less unknown than Prime Madara, Hashirama or Minato


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

My new list with Kabuto's new powers and Tobirama with Edo Tensei:

#Rikudo
1.Senju Hashirama
2.Uchiha Madara
3.Uchiha Itachi
4.Pain/Nagato
5.Sarutobi Hiruzen(Prime)
6.Uchiha Sasuke
7.Kirabi
8.Minato
9.Kabuto
10.Senju Tobirama
11.Orochimaru
12.Jiraiya
13.Danzo
14.Naruto
15.3rd Kazekage
16.Sasori
17.Hanzo
18.Hatake Sakumo
19.Kakuzo
20.Raikage
21.Kakshi
22.Deidara
23.Gay
24.Izuna
25.Gaara...


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Why on earth is ITachi above Pain?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Why on earth is ITachi above Pain?



Itachi and Tobi/Madara are probably the strongest shinobi in this story line, so yeah IMO Pain will pale when compared to them. To me Pain was the 3rd strongest shinobi of the story (i'm not counting fallen ones, such as  Shodai), his 6 pupets were almost perfect together, but much limited when separated, i believe if Nagato didnt sacrifice himself to his summon, that he would be unmatched, by the combination of all Elements, Gravitaional powers, Chakra Absorption, Absolute phisical phrowness and what not. The Rinnegan was the strongest eye, as it beat the Juubi, but it's obvious that Nagato was far from mastering it.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

That's absurd. Madara admitted he was powerless and we've had the very narration call Pain the strongest man in Akatsuki...that includes Itachi

Nagato has shown far more power than any of his subordinates. His bodies are faster than Itachi, physically stronger, and most of Itachi's techniques are made superfluous. Susanoo and Amaterasu? absorbed. Tsukuyomi won't even work


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Itachi and Tobi/Madara are probably the strongest shinobi in this story line,


nope. especially for itachi.

madara, minato,hashirama,rikudo sennin, sasuke, naruto, pain, and kabuto are all on his level or higher.


> so yeah IMO Pain will pale when compared to them.


pale in comparison to them? the one with ino level stamina and the man who is only a shell of his former self? have we been reading the same manga?


> To me Pain was the 3rd strongest shinobi of the story (i'm not counting fallen ones, such as  Shodai), his 6 pupets were almost perfect together, but much limited when separated, i believe if Nagato didnt sacrifice himself to his summon, that he would be unmatched, by the combination of all Elements, Gravitaional powers, Chakra Absorption, Absolute phisical phrowness and what not. The Rinnegan was the strongest eye, as it beat the Juubi, but it's obvious that Nagato was far from mastering it.


going completely by feats he crushes every single fighter we have seen in battle.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

_I really don't think Pain was faster
Despite his fights being a Sage's disaster.
For in battle Itachi never seemed to move:
A trait his enemies could never prove.
And while Pain is truly very quick,
He's simply not quite as slick.
He enters rude Sage brawls,
Slamming so and so through walls,
and his utility infringes agility._


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

> That's absurd. Madara admitted he was powerless and we've had the very narration call Pain the strongest man in Akatsuki...that includes Itachi



But Madara was still strong enough to use him his like his cat?And yeah he feared Itachi



> Nagato has shown far more power than any of his subordinates. His bodies are faster than Itachi, physically stronger, and most of Itachi's techniques are made superfluous. Susanoo and Amaterasu? absorbed. Tsukuyomi won't even work



Tsukuyomi can work on Pain just like Frog song.The biggest advantage is the following: Itachi can take himself into the world of Genjutsu, and take control it's time and space. The frogs cannot. And, just like he notices if he casts Genjutsu on a Clone (revise Itachi vs Team 7 and Chiyo), he perhaps would notice that he casted on a dead body, controled by a third party. (Remember when the rods hit someone, the Rinnegan eyes appear in the mind of that person, for it's chakra has been taken into whoever just got punctured. The same situation is plausible when you cast Tsukyoumi and disrupt the Pain body with your own Chakra, since like i stated, Itachi can see what he is casting on his opponent).The biggest advantage of Tsukyuomi, is to find Pain sectet and it's game over.

And Pain can't absord Susanoo but I won't discuss about this now.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> But Madara was still strong enough to use him his like his cat?And yeah he feared Itachi


They had an alliance. There's a difference. And he feared Itachi because Itachi knew his plans. Neither made a move for the other



> Tsukuyomi can work on Pain just like Frog song.The biggest advantage is the following: Itachi can take himself into the world of Genjutsu, and take control it's time and space. The frogs cannot. And, just like he notices if he casts Genjutsu on a Clone (revise Itachi vs Team 7 and Chiyo), he perhaps would notice that he casted on a dead body, controled by a third party.


And he'll have wasted a Tsukuyomi. Itachi can't find Nagato. The bodies can't feel pain, which is what Tsukuyomi does



> (Remember when the rods hit someone, the Rinnegan eyes appear in the mind of that person, for it's chakra has been taken into whoever just got punctured. The same situation is plausible when you cast Tsukyoumi and disrupt the Pain body with your own Chakra, since like i stated, Itachi can see what he is casting on his opponent).The biggest advantage of Tsukyuomi, is to find Pain sectet and it's game over.


You're full of it. Frog Song didn't have any effect on Nagato. This just means Itachi has wasted thirty percent of his chakra



> And Pain can't absord Susanoo but I won't discuss about this now.


Yes he can. The databook state sthe absorbing works on ALL techniques, regardless of chakra type


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> And Pain can't absord Susanoo but I won't discuss about this now.



no proof of this.



sasuke uciha boy said:


> But Madara was still strong enough to use him his like his cat?And yeah he feared Itachi



yet you have noway of proving this has anything to do with power.



> Tsukuyomi can work on Pain just like Frog song.


no it can't.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

> nope. especially for itachi.
> 
> madara, minato,hashirama,rikudo sennin, sasuke, naruto, pain, and kabuto are all on his level or higher.


Madara(prime) is.But now he feared him.
Minato isn't-Madara talks for shinobi like Itachi,Kirabi and Shodai like gods but for Minato like nothing.He will probably make suicite when he will see Itachi's sharingan like he did with Madara.Also he don't have answer for Susanoo and tsukuyomi.
Hashirama is.
Rikudo is.But we can't compare God with human.
Sasuke and Naruto-intelligent difference is too big here.
Pain-I said bedore.
Kabuto-He will finish like Oro-one panaled.



> pale in comparison to them? the one with ino level stamina and the man who is only a shell of his former self? have we been reading the same manga



The man who killed the best of his clan(Shinsui) without a scratch. There was no visible wounds on him the next day.The man who killed Uchiha clan without scratch.The man who onepanaled Oro and Deidara.Who defeated Kakshi without trying.The man from who Madara frared and didn't touch  Konoha.The man who was 10 thousand steps ahead of a normal mortal in this story; He divised that Sasuke would become the strongest Uchiha alive, by granting him a Mangekyou Sharingan, and, by dying near him after telling him about the EMS, possibly granting him EMS as well on the spot, which Sasuke accepted later on (right now). The man who gave Naruto powers to save Konoha.He didn't need Stamina he can defeat the oponents very fast.

Madara.He used Pain like his cat and everyone in Akatsuki except Itachi.The man who defeated Minato.The man who played with 10 Konoha's shinobis.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

*If* we do get a _Shisui v Itachi_ flashback, it will be epic. He was so fast that he was called the teleporter and we know how ridiculously talented in Genjutsu that man was. That means either Itachi is faster and more talented in Genjutsu or we get to see some neat Ninjutsu trickery.


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## Sanbi (Apr 3, 2010)

We don't even know if there was a fight, so I wouldn't get my hopes up, nor would I use it as a feat.


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Madara(prime) is.But now he feared him.


no proof he was feared because of power.


> Minato isn't-Madara talks for shinobi like Itachi,Kirabi and Shodai like gods but for Minato like nothing.He will probably make suicite when he will see Itachi's sharingan like he did with Madara.Also he don't have answer for Susanoo and tsukuyomi.


well, for one thing madara still denies involvement with the kyuubi attack, so talking about minato would blow his cover. but just based on the results ( minato successfully causing madara to flee, and sealing the kyuubi), we know madara did not stomp him.

and yes, minato does have answers to those jutsu. hiraishin and speed. 

if you ask me, itachi doesn't have an answer to being tagged and yellowflashed.


> Hashiramaa is.


of course.


> Rikudo is.But we can't compare God with human.


of course


> Sasuke and Naruto-intelligent difference is too big here.


absolutely not. SM naruto and current sasuke are stronger than itachi, or at the very least on his level.


> Pain-I said bedore.


what you said before made no sense. he loses to itachi because of tsukuyomi? a jutsu he can't harm dead bodies with, or their puppeteer unless he knows exactly were nagato is? i don't think so, bro.


> Kabuto-He will finish like Oro-one panaled.


nope. kabuto, a non arrogant version of orochimaru with a more advanced edo tensei would give itachi a good run for his money, and possibly beat him.


> The man who killed the best of his clan(Shinsui) without a scratch.


except shisui is fodder with no feats.


> There was no visible wounds on him the next day.The man who killed Uchiha clan without scratch.


again a bunch of fodder... who he needed madaras help with anyway..


> The man who onepanaled Oro and Deidara.


the guy that cums at the sight of sharingan, and also had no killer intent with itachi, and a ten year old deidara 

 wow...big woop.


> Who defeated Kakshi without trying.


a part one kakashi, who was significantly weaker.


> The man from who Madara frared and didn't touch  Konoha.


prove it was because of power, and you may have a point.


> Madara.He used Pain like his cat and everyone in Akatsuki except Itachi.The man who defeated Minato.The man who played with 10 Konoha's shinobis.


yet, by itachi's own admission by mouth and action is inferior to a severly weakened madara.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Madara(prime) is.But now he feared him.
> Minato isn't-Madara talks for shinobi like Itachi,Kirabi and Shodai like gods but for Minato like nothing.He will probably make suicite when he will see Itachi's sharingan like he did with Madara.Also he don't have answer for Susanoo and tsukuyomi.
> Hashirama is.
> Rikudo is.But we can't compare God with human.
> ...



Madara was beaten by Minato according to the fanbook, actually. 



> The man who killed the best of his clan(Shinsui) without a scratch. There was no visible wounds on him the next day.The man who killed Uchiha clan without scratch.The man who onepanaled Oro and Deidara.


1. Prove how he defeated Shisui. There was no known fight given there were no signs of struggle
2. He beat Oro in a fight we did not fully see. IT continued after he took his hand
3. He beat a nine year old Deidara far from his peak. So?
4. He had Madara helping him with Uchiha


> Who defeated Kakshi without trying.The man from who Madara frared and didn't touch  Konoha.The man who was 10 thousand steps ahead of a normal mortal in this story; He divised that Sasuke would become the strongest Uchiha alive, by granting him a Mangekyou Sharingan, and, by dying near him after telling him about the EMS, possibly granting him EMS as well on the spot, which Sasuke accepted later on (right now). The man who gave Naruto powers to save Konoha.He didn't need Stamina he can defeat the oponents very fast.


He can't beat Pain fast.  The problem is you're making it seem like Itachi effortlessly beat people who only improved after he fought them.
Most of this doesn't make ITachi better



> Madara.He used Pain like his cat and everyone in Akatsuki except Itachi.The man who defeated Minato.The man who played with 10 Konoha's shinobis.


Is that why Itachi carried out his orders while he was in Akatsuki? And ten Konoha shinobi? Kay...Pain kinda soloed the village with those shinobi in it. And again...alliance =/= being beaten by.
And Minato won the fight.



Selim said:


> *If* we do get a _Shisui v Itachi_ flashback, it will be epic. He was so fast that he was called the teleporter and we know how ridiculously talented in Genjutsu that man was. That means either Itachi is faster and more talented in Genjutsu or we get to see some neat Ninjutsu trickery.



Or he drugged him and held him underwater, or suckerpunched him when he wasn't expecting it and THEN held him underwater...


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

I made if *if* for a reason lol.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

> They had an alliance. There's a difference. And he feared Itachi because Itachi knew his plans. Neither made a move for the other



Not important he feared Itachi and not Pian.Pain knew his plans so it's not Imortant.Cat VS The Gad(Itachi)-God wins 



> And he'll have wasted a Tsukuyomi. Itachi can't find Nagato. The bodies can't feel pain, which is what Tsukuyomi does



Jiraiya beat 3 pein with genjutsu. Itachi is genjutsu master with tsukuyomi. All pein share the same vision like a cctv control room. So if 1 get caught in tsukuyomi so does the other 5. Amateras will burn them like almost kill Madara apart from the fat ass pein. And Itachi still have suusano for reserve. You pretty much know where Im going.



> You're full of it. Frog Song didn't have any effect on Nagato. This just means Itachi has wasted thirty percent of his chakra



Frog Song Killed 3 pain's badies-Itachi will kill all.

Yes he can. The databook state sthe absorbing works on ALL techniques, regardless of chakra type[/QUOTE]

The Databook state that Only Uchihas can broke Tsukuyomi.

And yrah Zetsu watched Jiraiya vs Pain and Sasuke VS Itachi and said that Itachis jutsu are the best.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Not important he feared Itachi and not Pian.Pain knew his plans so it's not Imortant.Cat VS The Gad(Itachi)-God wins



When did he fear Itachi? He openly mocked him. 




> Jiraiya beat 3 pein with genjutsu. Itachi is genjutsu master with tsukuyomi. All pein share the same vision like a cctv control room. So if 1 get caught in tsukuyomi so does the other 5. Amateras will burn them like almost kill Madara apart from the fat ass pein. And Itachi still have suusano for reserve. You pretty much know where Im going.


Yes, you're making no points and clinging to Itachi like any other Uchiha fanboy on this board.
What part of 'Frog Song ius different' escapes you? That's a paralyzing Genjutsu. Itachi can only use Genjutus on one at a time and his Genjusu fights by causing pain on the opponent. Which the bodies can't feel
Fat Pain cna intercept Amaterasu and absorb it, Shinra Tensei can disperse it...so bad idea.
Know how many MS jutsu Itachi can use before he's out of chakra and dies? FOUR.



> Frog Song Killed 3 pain's badies-Itachi will kill all.


How? Frog Song paralyzes the body itself. It also didn't kill. The giant swords Jiraiya had did that



> Yes he can. The databook state sthe absorbing works on ALL techniques, regardless of chakra type



The Databook state that Only Uchihas can broke Tsukuyomi.[/Quote]
We've seen it proven wrong several times in the manga. Sasuke broke one without an MS, Danzo and Bee broke one. Pain has the superior eyes and power.
HG absorbs Chakra. Susanoo= chakra



> And yrah Zetsu watched Jiraiya vs Pain and Sasuke VS Itachi and said that Itachis jutsu are the best.


Don't be an idiot. Jiraiya could sense natural energy. He didn't feel Zetsu. Zetsu only showed up towards the end


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

> no proof he was feared because of power.



No proof that it's becose somting else.



> well, for one thing madara still denies involvement with the kyuubi attack, so talking about minato would blow his cover. but just based on the results ( minato successfully causing madara to flee, and sealing the kyuubi), we know madara did not stomp him.



Minato is dead-Madara is a live.Minato was inferior.



> and yes, minato does have answers to those jutsu. hiraishin and speed.



Itachi can read hirashin and Itachi is fast too.Amaterasu will burn him like he almost burn Madara who is faster than the blondie.



> absolutely not. SM naruto and current sasuke are stronger than itachi, or at the very least on his level.



I said the intelligent difference is too big here. 



> except shisui is fodder with no feats.



The strongest in his clan.



> gain a bunch of fodder... who he needed madaras help with anyway..



The strongest clan



> the guy that cums at the sight of sharingan, and also had no killer intent with itachi, and a ten year old deidara



Onepanaled Sannin and Akatsuki




> a part one kakashi, who was significantly weaker.



One of the strongst Konoha's shinobi




> prove it was because of power, and you may have a point.



And he feared him becose of what.



> yet, by itachi's own admission by mouth and action is inferior to a severly weakened madara.



Pain=cat Itachi=God God>Cat


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

> When did he fear Itachi? He openly mocked him.



If I didn't keep the secret I would be dead.



> Yes, you're making no points and clinging to Itachi like any other Uchiha fanboy on this board.
> What part of 'Frog Song ius different' escapes you? That's a paralyzing Genjutsu. Itachi can only use Genjutus on one at a time and his Genjusu fights by causing pain on the opponent. Which the bodies can't feel
> Fat Pain cna intercept Amaterasu and absorb it, Shinra Tensei can disperse it...so bad idea.
> Know how many MS jutsu Itachi can use before he's out of chakra and dies? FOUR.



You can't prove that Genjutsu won't work on Pain.He don't must to attack the Fat Pain he will kill the other first.






> We've seen it proven wrong several times in the manga. Sasuke broke one without an MS, Danzo and Bee broke one. Pain has the superior eyes and power.



Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi.Well maybe can in your fanbook where Minato defeated Madara




> Don't be an idiot. Jiraiya could sense natural energy. He didn't feel Zetsu. Zetsu only showed up towards the end



Zetsu watched the two fights and said that Itachi's jutsus are the best.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Pain is described in the manga's narration as the strongest man in Akatsuki. Case closed


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Pain is described in the manga's narration as the strongest man in Akatsuki. Case closed



Maybe in your fanbooks Case closed


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Pain is described in the manga's narration as the strongest man in Akatsuki. Case closed



That was actually Itachi being described lol. Didn't you read the thread? But it wasn't the author's narration, it was the editor's hyping the next chapter in which Itachi pursued Naruto, and thus it can't be considered canon.


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> No proof that it's becose somting else.


yes there is. itachi already admitted inferiority, therefore he it isn't because of power. at least going by what we currently know.


> Minato is dead-Madara is a live.Minato was inferior.


so what? the point was madara didn't stomp him.


> Itachi can read hirashin and Itachi is fast too.Amaterasu will burn him like he almost burn Madara who is faster than the blondie.


1. no he can't. minato shunshins to him, and tags him. game over.
2.minato can dodge amaterasu via reflexes and hiraishin.
3. madara was caught by surprise, so please don't bring that as an arguement.


> I said the intelligent difference is too big here.


 so what. naruto has surpassed people that have been as smart as, or even smarter than itachi. eg: kakashi and minato. intellegence isn't everything, bro.


> The strongest in his clan.


fodder is fodder. say what you will.


> a
> 
> The strongest clan


yay....fodder is fodder. say what you will

PS:senju>senju dogs



> Onepanaled Sannin and Akatsuki



yes, repeating the exact same thing over again helps right 

and to repeat myself, a 10 year old deidara, and an orochimaru with no killer intent.


> One of the strongst Konoha's shinobi



so what. all the top-tiers in the manga has shat on kakashi.




> And he feared him becose of what.



not power, based on whate know. probably because of his promise to itachi. madara is a man of his word.



> Pain=can Itachi=God God>Cat


if pain is a cat, itachi is obviously the mouse.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> That was actually Itachi being described lol. Didn't you read the thread? But it wasn't the author's narration, it was the editor's hyping the next chapter in which Itachi pursued Naruto, and thus it can't be considered canon.



Yeah, because we know having a brief chat = pursuit!

Never mind that it was said before the 'next week' and said just when Pain was given the job to catch the Nine Tails


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't think Itachi can read Hirashin.

It's a space/time jutsu, that alone makes it impossible to follow or read. The fact that Itachi's eyesight isn't exactly top notch doesn't make things easier.

Also @ Inu. I don't think Kakashi and Minato are more intelligent than Itachi. In terms of tactics, Kakashi definitely trumps him but overall Itachi is probably more intelligent. The guy was a freakin' genius and set up more back up plans than there are stars in the sky. He basically planned Sasuke's life too. But yeah, it's still controversial whether or not Naruto has surpassed Kakashi. I believe he has(unfortunately) but in terms of tactics and intelligence, he still needs to improve.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

_Minato v Itachi_ is a ridiculous match up that ends with either Genjutsu or a Rasengan IMHO. I think Susano'o gives Itachi the head to head edge, but Minato can always retreat if he wants to.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 3, 2010)

Of course it is, Minato has zero feats. The only thing we can go by is the four jutsu he has and his hype.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah, because we know having a brief chat = pursuit!



The "chat" followed a successful pursuit.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

What 'pursuit?'  It certainly doesn't change Nagato was the one just assigned to pursue Naruto...and heck, Naruto was the one pursuing Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Itachi purposefully found and confronted Naruto. How is that not a pursuit?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Chapter: In pursuit of Itachi
Naruto: Pursuing ITachi
Is it pursuit if you just let the other guy find you?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

> yes there is. itachi already admitted inferiority, therefore he it isn't because of power. at least going by what we currently know.



Madara if I didn't keep the secret I would be dead.
So Itachi=God Pain=Cat God>Cat



> so what? the point was madara didn't stomp him.



He looked like shit.




> 1. no he can't. minato shunshins to him, and tags him. game over.
> 2.minato can dodge amaterasu via reflexes and hiraishin.
> 3. madara was caught by surprise, so please don't bring that as an arguement.



Itachi can read his moves.So his attack are useless.
And Itachi now will say:Wait I'll use Amaterasu and you avoid the attack?



> so what. naruto has surpassed people that have been as smart as, or even smarter than itachi. eg: kakashi and minato. intellegence isn't everything, bro.



Yeah he defeated tham in fight?



> fodder is fodder. say what you will.
> 
> yay....fodder is fodder. say what you will
> 
> PS:senju>senju dogs



Only  Uchiha can  defeat  another Uchiha.  Even the coward Danzou didn't dare touch the Uchiha by himself, because he knew you need an Uchiha to take out an Uchiha. Even Itachi has made this statement. Not only did the Uchihas outlive the Senjus, they are superior to the ones still living.
If that didn't help you, you might want to read what Madara said "But if a Clan of the Uchiha's caliber started a civil war,it would've shaken the not only foundations of the Hidden Leaf Village, but the Fire Country itself. And that would've opened the door for other countries to invade.Unrest in the Leaf would have been the trigger for a 4th World War."



> yes, repeating the exact same thing over again helps right
> 
> and to repeat myself, a 10 year old deidara, and an orochimaru with no killer intent.



Not imortant they are Sannin and Akatsuki.And Itachi had killer intent to anyone in this manga?



> f pain is a cat, itachi is obviously the mouse.



There was nothing said like this in the Manga.Madara was Pain's boss and he feared Itachi.

Unlike Pain, who got owned by Naruto. No one was able to own Itachi, not even Madara.
Unlike Pain who  followed order from Madara.Itachi didn't follow orders


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Lighty, talk to Inu. He made the thread thinking it was Pein and then recanted and admitted that it was about Itachi. I don't feel like arguing about something trivial that has already been more or less decided by most people.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm sure Inu did. It doesn't change that Itachi fans love weaseling out of straight facts by wheedling in irrelevant details. 
I love how "Well, a few people decided it was Itachi" means "LUL ITACHI IS STRONGEST."


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I love how "Well, a few people decided it was Itachi" means "LUL ITACHI IS STRONGEST."



Well it's sounds better than lul the Madra's cat is the strongest


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Remember when Itachi never even tried to touch Madara while he was alive and Pain and Madara were just allied? Manipulation =/= strength


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## kishin asura (Apr 3, 2010)

1:Rikudou Sennin
2chiha Madara
3:Senju Hashirama
4:Nagato/Pain
5:Namikaze Minato
6chiha Sasuke-EMS
7:Kabutomaru
8:Senju Tobirama
9chiha Itachi
10:Sarutobi Hiruzen-Prime
11rochimaru
12:Jiraiya
13zumaki Naruto
14:Kirabi
15:Raikage
16:Hoshigaki Kisame
17:Sasori
18:Hatake Kakashi
19eidara
20:Gaara


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

^ Hey, man. Madara said it. lol


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2010)

1. Pain:walked into a Village, took on nearly its entire Shinobi compliment, and won. Effortlessly beat the most powerful Sannin. Pain/Nagato was the strongest shinobi ever shown in the manga.
2. Hashirama Senju: First Hokage, controls all the Bijuu, Mokuton master. Nuff said.
3. Uchiha Madara (Prime): Sharingan master, strongest Sharingan user, and controlled the Kyubi.
4. Minato Namikaze: Fastest shinobi in the manga, had a flee on sight order, nearly single handily stopped the Third Shinobi world war, and fought _both_ Madara and Kyubi at the same time.
5. Jiraiya: Fifth strongest shinobi in the manga, master of Sage Mode, Master of all the toad jutsus, insane stamina, speed, strength, ninjutsu, and taijutsu. All around master with the exception of genjutsu.
6: Uchiha Itachi: Itachi is self explanatory-he's the strongest Uchiha of his era, and a genjutsu master.
7. Killer Bee: The perfect Jinchuuriki, can control all eight tails of the Hachibi. Master of raiton.
8. Naruto: Master of Sage Mode, insane stamina, insane strength, perfected nature manipulation to the highest level, and did the impossible by combining both shape and nature chakras. 
9. Orochimaru/Danzo: Easily the most unkillable, snake master, master of kinjutsu./Master of the Izanagi, wierd summon, ninjutsu master, mind control jutsu
10. Uchiha Sasuke: Seems a little low, but bare with me-he's a master of elemental ninjutsu, but he lets his anger cloud his judgment too much. 
11. Tsunade: Strongest Kunoichi on the planet, physically the strongest ninja, and best medical specialist.


...

Can't think of anymroe at the moment.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Inu said:


> stopped caring about what you had to say here.



The Uchiha were no one's dog, and apparently, people think it's a joke. Kakashi, a  genius and the son of Sakumo stated that the worst possible situation he could possibly be in, was facing a sharingan user.



> Remember when Itachi never even tried to touch Madara while he was alive and Pain and Madara were just allied? Manipulation =/= strength



Remember when Itachi was alive and Madara had 7 bijuus and 8 Akatsuki members but he never tried to touch Itachi?


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> ^ Hey, man. Madara said it. lol


madara also said  his ass still aches after his whooping from shodai 100 years ago. lol.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

The only logical explanation is that Hashirama was, in fact, Itachi.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

^ probability lol


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> The only logical explanation is that Hashirama was, in fact, Itachi.


we know it can't be itachi since he has ino level stamina


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

But he is the strongest charachter


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## Sanbi (Apr 3, 2010)

Itachi isn't close to the strongest character. He might make the Top Ten, but I can think of lots of Shinobi stronger or around the same caliber as him.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Inu said:


> in the hearts of all the people who cum to every panel he's shown in



Every other, thank you. Sanbi, you can't know that because we have yet to see a fit to fight Itachi. We do know that there are very few who are stronger than him while he's nowhere near his peak though.


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## Angoobo (Apr 3, 2010)

@sasukeuchiaboy:Lol.
Itachi's not even one of the ten strongest characters...He's just an uchiha who killed his beloved friend()to obtain power that surpasses him...


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> @sasukeuchiaboy:Lol.
> Itachi's not even one of the ten strongest characters...He's just an uchiha who killed his beloved friend()to obtain power that surpasses him...



Itachi onepanaling Akatsuki,Sannins and Konoha's shinobi.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

I'm simply going to point out that we judge Itachi on what was shown despite:



He is *much* stronger than what we saw. Faster, and even sexier.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Gaara, Naruto, Sakumo and Pein, they all got nothing on Itachi. Itachi's childhood wasn't an easy one due to witnessing the 3 Great Ninja War at the age of 4 and all the pressure he had for being born the heir of the Uchiha clan. His state of mind must have been in hell for the decision that was in front of him, killing the clan or starting a civil war. Itachi chose loyalty to the village, killing his own mother and father in the process. Not only was he able to go through with that, but he decided to continue living for the sake of his brother and continue fighting for the good of his village without killing good people, turning psycho, or believing he was a God.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

That's why we have databook stats


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Databook stats are flawed and capped. They also likely take in to account his particular illness or handicap - whatever that may be.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2010)

Itachi was powerful, no doubt about it. But Jiraiya, Minato, and expecially Pain were stronger, more talented, and even more creative than he was.

Sasuke Uchiha *Fan*boy, stop making the Uchiha out to be gods.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't think there's much of a case for Jiraiya being more talented than Itachi.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Sasuke is without a doubt one of the fastest shinobi of all time, and his brother, fought him in close range while being half blind/blind and injured before the fight. Not only did Itachi block every single kunai/shuriken thrown at him, he even out speed Sasuke by making a kage bushin while blocking. If that wasn't enough, he held back the entire fight and even defended against an attack faster than the speed of light (eat that Yondaime) while being blind.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2010)

...are you...dear god, Sasuke is NOT faster than Minato! He's equal to even base Naruto in speed now.

something tells me this guy is Jizz ban evading again.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Base Naruto is faster than Sasuke? B-but the stats!


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

i wouldn't say it's a stretch to say he's at least in the same league.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> Base Naruto is faster than Sasuke? B-but the stats!


...AS fast. Not faster. -snip-


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Inu said:


> i wouldn't say it's a stretch to say he's at least in the same league.



Why would Naruto's base be faster than last time they met? I don't disagree, but I would say Sasuke has a solid speed advantage until Sage Mode evens the playing field and perhaps even gives Naruto a speed advantage.


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

training..


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi was powerful, no doubt about it. But Jiraiya, Minato, and expecially Pain were stronger, more talented, and even more creative than he was.
> 
> Sasuke Uchiha *Fan*boy, stop making the Uchiha out to be gods.



How is Jiraiya stronger? When Itachi was powerful without ever using his full potential. Many people including Kakashi even said that he never used his full abilities.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

The intense training he's gone through while Sasuke has power ups handed to him on a silver platter? A restored Sasuke went right for the kill with Kakashi...Naruto intercepted him.
Naruto's a solid 4 in speed now, at least. And he was able to avoid a speedblitz from God Realm


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 3, 2010)

Arch said:


> How is Jiraiya stronger? When Itachi was powerful without ever using his full potential. Many people including Kakashi even said that he never used his full abilities.


Since Jiraiya was confident, in BASE, he could handle Itachi and Kisame at the same time, and Itachi was sure that he would lose. Jiraiya faced Pain, and showed how much stronger he was than Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Saiyan, absolutely no one believes Jiraiya would beat Itachi & Kisame.


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> Why would Naruto's base be faster than last time they met? I don't disagree, but I would say Sasuke has a solid speed advantage until Sage Mode evens the playing field and perhaps even gives Naruto a speed advantage.


i agree that sasuke and itachi are faster, but definitely not blitz worthy.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Sasuke gets random power ups almost every fight, a super power because his hatred is strong and EMS...he and Naruto both trained with a Sannin for three years. Naruto, however, has been training intensely while Sasuke...hasn't. He's caught up


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## Sanbi (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> Saiyan, absolutely no one believes Jiraiya would beat Itachi & Kisame.


I have to agree here.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Sasuke just trains on Kages lol. He has no clone jutsu


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Jiraiya and Itachi are fairly considered equals, I would say.  And Jiraiya's shown he can Itachi's Sharingan genjutsu (he notes he broke it on the woman Itachi hypnotized)...he's not as fast, but he's fast enough to avoid a blitz. In base, barring MS, he has much better ninjutsu and variety...he also has summons he's far better with....and of course, The Swamp.

Jiraiya would butcher Kisame, though


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> Sasuke just trains on Kages lol. He has no clone jutsu



Except that he only used Susanoo and Amaterasu, nothing that he had to work for to use.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

^ Yet he had to master Susano'o at least. 



He still doesn't use Amaterasu like Itachi.


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

He only mastered Susanoo because of his anger and hatred. If it wasn't for his hatred it would have still been incomplete.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

He's better at it than Itachi is from the only direct comparison we have. Sasuke also just develops powerups randomly. Naruto trains...and when he meets Bee, he'll train more


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

Sasuke uses Amaterasu better than Itachi because sasuke can control the flames enough to the point of extinguishing them

Maybe Itachi can extinguish them too and we just never saw it because he never used his full abilities


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Sasuke was shown to control it, but Itachi's was shown to be more powerful



Itachi can and *did* extinguish them when he fought Sasuke.


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

Oh...Sasuke's amaterasu will probably better now that he has EMS.

Just have to wait and see.


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke surpassed itachi in amaterasu, that is canon.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

That is far from canon, Inu. lol

 - Shi[/I]

You're taking *Shi*'s *question* as an undeniable statement?



			
				Databook said:
			
		

> But it is hard to say that just these reflect Itachi's abilities. His true potential can only be recognized by those in his level.



So unless Shi is at Itachi's level... it's not an absolute statement.


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

It is hard to decide when Itachi never tried and fought to his true ability


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Arch said:


> It is hard to decide when Itachi never tried and fought to his true ability



True.The Itachi we saw there wasn't the one Zetsu was so much impressed with, so imagine the Itachi Zetsu must have seen. Itachi was the guy that no one could kill, he died because his eyes gave out but not before giving his powers to his brother.


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## ? (Apr 3, 2010)

yes, i am. itachi can't munipulate his amaterasu into kagatsuchi. sasuke has the better amaterasu. itachi has the better tsukuyomi. that is what the manga seems to imply.


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

He died because he planned to die and to his illness. He was eventually going to die from his illness, but he planned to die to Sasuke all along.

He didn't give Sasuke some of his power, he only gave him Amaterasu that is triggered by Madara's sharingan.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

I wouldn't say so, Inu. The manga shoves it down our throats that Itachi's Tsukuyomi (and for a time Susano'o) was much, much, much better than Sasuke's own. Shi's very vague rhetorical question is worthless next to the direct comparison of abilities by Madara and Danzō.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Arch said:


> He died because he planned to die and to his illness. He was eventually going to die from his illness, but he planned to die to Sasuke all along.
> 
> He didn't give Sasuke some of his power, he only gave him Amaterasu that is triggered by Madara's sharingan.



Tobi-Madara says it's the death of Orochimaru that awakens the Mangekyou Sharingan in Sasuke, and he is all knowing etc. 

Itachi waited to kill Oro to aweken Sasuke's MS .His eyes give up...


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Itachi's genjutsu>Sasuke's, yeah.
Sasuke's Amaterasu>Itachi's.

I see no contradiction. Sasuke has always been the superior ninjutsu fighter in regards to inventiveness and variety


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes he was on the verge of blindness, but his eyes didn't give up he planned to die. And Itachi didn't kill Oro, he was just sealed.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I see no contradiction. Sasuke has always been the superior ninjutsu fighter in regards to inventiveness and variety



How can you be sure? Sasuke has infinite panel time


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Arch said:


> Yes he was on the verge of blindness, but his eyes didn't give up he planned to die. And Itachi didn't kill Oro, he was just sealed.



I'm not saying that he didn't plan to die.But when Itachi  killed/sealed Orochimaru  Sasuke's MS  was awakened.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Selim said:


> How can you be sure? Sasuke has infinite panel time



In general ninjutsu itself, besides the MS, what has Itachi's shown us? A Great Fireball and a suiton?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

And an exploding clone


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Point is, he hasn't shown anything particularly great or special aside from his MS


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> \.But when Itachi  killed/sealed Orochimaru  Sasuke's MS  was awakened.



No.. In fact he wasn't able to even use his sharingan let alone MS. It awakened when Itachi died.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Arch said:


> No.. In fact he wasn't able to even use his sharingan let alone MS. It awakened when Itachi died.



Itachi wasn't Sasukes best friend.He hated Itachi more than everything.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

IT's the death of the one closest to you. When he realized how much he genuinely loved the REAL ITachi, his Sharingan awoke


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## Arch (Apr 3, 2010)

Are you saying Oro was his best friend?...Lol
Naruto was his best friend and he didn't kill him to awaken MS. Therefore you can gain the MS different ways. Sasuke's way was by killing his brother.

[EDIT]Lighty is right.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 3, 2010)

Arch said:


> Are you saying Oro was his best friend?...Lol
> Naruto was his best friend and he didn't kill him to awaken MS. Therefore you can gain the MS different ways. Sasuke's way was by killing his brother.
> 
> [EDIT]Lighty is right.



it doesn't seem necessary to kill your best friend.To Itachi, Orochimaru would be enough to awaken Sasukes Mangekyou Sharingan, i'm sure deep down he had faith that Sasuke wouldn't go on killing his best friend, maybe he even knew this wasn't necessary, to be honest, i'm not even sure Shisui was killed by Itachi.



Lightysnake said:


> IT's the death of the one closest to you. When he realized how much he genuinely loved the REAL ITachi, his Sharingan awoke



It's true that we only see Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan when he is crying his brothers death, but, Tobi-Madara stated before that event, that Itachi had already done what was needed to be done, to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, when Sasuke is tied down, Tobi-Madara says something along the lines of "...and to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan...". But Tobi-Madara is full of BS all the time anyway, could have all been a plan to force that MS open, he is 120 years old after all, the old geezer knows it better then anyway.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Point is, he hasn't shown anything particularly great or special aside from his MS



I agree with that, but I don't agree with the assertion that Sasuke is naturally better at Ninjutsu and that therefore his Amaterasu was better despite all of his other dojutsu abilities being far below Itachi's level.


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## David (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Point is, he hasn't shown anything particularly great or special aside from his MS




*Databook Statistics (out of 5):*
Ninjutsu: 5
Taijutsu: 4.5
Genjutsu: 5
Intelligence: 5
Strength: 3.5
Speed: 5
Stamina: 2.5
Seal Knowledge: 5

*Jutsu allowed:*


*Effects of Genjutsu*


















*Ninjutsu*


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## Violent by Design (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Point is, he hasn't shown anything particularly great or special aside from his MS



I would defiantly consider Itachi's speed to be great.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Is his speed really so above a good deal of other characters?


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## Violent by Design (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes, it is. 

I think it's a bit silly to say that Itachi is not "great" with out his MS. Is he a "broken" shinobi with out his MS? No, but he is still great in many aspects of fighting. His MS which are some of the best moves in the manga, merely out shine his other feats.

For one thing, in the narutoverse genjutsu is considered to be a major part of a shinobi's skill set. Uchiha Itachi is the most lethal genjutsu user in the series even with out the MS.

But back to speed. Based on feats, Uchiha Itachi has the absolute best handseal speed by a wide margin. So fast that Kakashi with his sharigan could not keep up. So fast that during a very high speed sequence against Sasuke, he was able to create a Kage Bunshin with out the opposing Uchiha noticing. So in regards to hand seal speed and genjutsu, he is not only great but he is absolutely supreme. 

But in general in terms of speed, he was able to go toe to toe with Uchiha Sasuke at a high octane pace and the databook gave him a 5/5 stat in speed which to my knowledge only Gai officially shares that feat. Kirabi and the Raikage are the only ones who would most likely receive a 5/5 thus far.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

No, it really isn't. Kakashi kept pace with him in close range post time skip. Sasuke was able to read and react to him. The Raikage all out is easily faster. Pain is quite a bit faster with most bodies. Gai is at least on par and remove the Sharingan and Gai would slaughter him in a fight. Danzo was about to avoid a point blank Chidori with a large hole in him, Deidara evaded Gai and team with no arms and three days worth of exhaustion and blood loss...

Itachi is not so much faster than the elite ranks he can effortlessly blitz them. Quite a few people have speed feats that match or exceed him and can keep up


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## Violent by Design (Apr 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> No, it really isn't. Kakashi kept pace with him in close range post time skip. Sasuke was able to read and react to him. The Raikage all out is easily faster. Pain is quite a bit faster with most bodies. Gai is at least on par and remove the Sharingan and Gai would slaughter him in a fight. Danzo was about to avoid a point blank Chidori with a large hole in him, Deidara evaded Gai and team with no arms and three days worth of exhaustion and blood loss...
> 
> Itachi is not so much faster than the elite ranks he can effortlessly blitz them. Quite a few people have speed feats that match or exceed him and can keep up



Itachi is still faster than almost all of those guys. You're ridiculously stretching out what it means to be faster than someone. This isn't Dragon Ball Z, just because his opposition can keep track of (some) of his movements it does not mean that he isn't faster than them. 

Uchiha Itachi based on feats and canon statements is top 5 in terms of speed. Gai, Raikage and Kirabi are the only guys who have better feats than Itachi speed wise. I suppose you could count Minato but we've barely even seen anything from him.  Other than that, who is faster than Itachi? All you did was list guys who could keep up with him.

You didn't even make a link with your Deidara statement. Not only that, but he didn't evade team Gai due to superior speed, if you're implying that that is just ridiculous.

Same thing with Danzou. All you did was list something that was impressive (I'm not sure what you're talking about, when did he evade the Chidori?), but you didn't make any connection if Danzou is actually faster than Itachi.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 3, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Itachi is still faster than almost all of those guys. You're ridiculously stretching out what it means to be faster than someone. This isn't Dragon Ball Z, just because his opposition can keep track of (some) of his movements it does not mean that he isn't faster than them.
> 
> Uchiha Itachi based on feats and canon statements is top 5 in terms of speed. Gai, Raikage and Kirabi are the only guys who have better feats than Itachi speed wise. I suppose you could count Minato but we've barely even seen anything from him.  Other than that, who is faster than Itachi? All you did was list guys who could keep up with him.



Most of the people listed are faster than Itachi and have better speed feats than he does. Hell, Pain dodging the FRS which cleared the entire Chibaku Tensei crater in under a second is significantly faster than anything Itachi has ever done



> You didn't even make a link with your Deidara statement. Not only that, but he didn't evade team Gai due to superior speed, if you're implying that that is just ridiculous.





He caught Tenten's kunai in his mouth and was evading Gai, Neji and Lee at once. When obviously quite far from his best. That is quite the speed feat, yes.


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## Dim Mak (Apr 4, 2010)

Selim said:


> I'm simply going to point out that we judge Itachi on what was shown despite:
> 
> 
> 
> He is *much* stronger than what we saw. Faster, and even sexier.



Don't exaggerate.



sasuke uciha boy said:


> Gaara, Naruto, Sakumo and Pein, they all got nothing on Itachi. Itachi's childhood wasn't an easy one due to witnessing the 3 Great Ninja War at the age of 4 and all the pressure he had for being born the heir of the Uchiha clan. His state of mind must have been in hell for the decision that was in front of him, killing the clan or starting a civil war. Itachi chose loyalty to the village, killing his own mother and father in the process. Not only was he able to go through with that, but he decided to continue living for the sake of his brother and continue fighting for the good of his village without killing good people, turning psycho, or believing he was a God.



Pain went through a war, his parents were killed in front of his eyes. He was forced to kill his own friend. Well i guess you know the story of Naruto & Gaara too, right? Sure Itachi's youth wasn't easy, but to say that Pain Naruto and Gaara had nothing on Itachi is just plain ignorance. -snip-


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 4, 2010)

'Eh, I'd say Itachi had a worse childhood than the two Jinchurikis and Nagato. But not to the point where they had nothing on him.

The child was forced to live through War age the age of 4 and was pressured by his Father of being the successor of the clan. He killed his own best friend too, and was eventually forced to kill his Clan. His parents, friends and lover. All of them.

They've all had their fair share of traumatic experiences, but I don't see how that should affect their placements on the top 20 list.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 4, 2010)

Booya Kun said:


> Don't exaggerate.



It was verbatim from the page I provided


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## Dim Mak (Apr 4, 2010)

Selim said:


> It was verbatim from the page I provided


I've misread that part, sorry.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 4, 2010)

Booya Kun said:


> Pain went through a war, his parents were killed in front of his eyes. He was forced to kill his own friend. Well i guess you know the story of Naruto & Gaara too, right? Sure Itachi's youth wasn't easy, but to say that Pain Naruto and Gaara had nothing on Itachi is just plain ignorance. Don't act like an uchihatard, you won't be taken seriously.



 you are very funny guy.
You are calling me Uchihatard I'll call you Madara's cattard



Booya Kun said:


> I've misread that part, sorry.



Its one thing to debate but thats just a strait refusal to look at the facts...


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## Dim Mak (Apr 4, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> you are very funny guy.
> You are calling me Uchihatard I'll call you Madara's cattard
> 
> 
> ...



There's a difference between refusing and misreading. I don't need to convince you of anything. I'm not a hater of Itachi, not at all. Fanboyism is just showing that -snip- Please don't reply to this post, i don't want to go in to a discussion.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 4, 2010)

Booya Kun said:


> There's a difference between refusing and misreading.



I misreaded.I thought it was sarcasm.Sorry


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> *1. Jyubi Rikudō Sennin Jyubi puts him here by default/
> 2. Hashirama Senju Naruto's final Senju benchmark to surpass.
> 3. Madara Uchiha Sasuke's final Uchiha benchmark to surpass.
> 4. Nagato  Sort of sealed the Kyubi. Minato's replacement intermediary benchmark.
> ...



But, Kirabi below Kakashi and Danzo? And why is Deidara above Sasori?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 5, 2010)

Based on actual shown abilities, one could easily say Deidara>Sasori...I could see how someone thinks Danzo>Bee, at least in general terms.

Got my message, btw, AS?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 5, 2010)

I just don't see how Tsunade can be soo high


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## Smiley (Apr 5, 2010)

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Hashirama Senju
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Negato/Pain
5. Naruto Full SM
6. Jiraiya HM Mode/Hiruzen Sarutobi Prime/Minato
7. Sasuke w/MS & susanoo/Tobirama Senju (Tobirama due to the hype of him being Hasirama's Brother)
8. Itachi Uchiha
9. Raikage/KB/Kisame/Danzo/ (Kisame has the most chakra in the akatsuki)
10. Tsunade/Deidara/Hidan/Kakuzu/Sasori/Kakashi/Orochimaru (All of the akatsuki members apart from pain have shown to be equal and have their own different effects, neither stronger than the other)
11. Kabuto ( I know what your thinking, KABUTO, but that dudes got some tricks above his sleevs)


I can only do that much. I probally made so many mistakes, but naming the top 20 strongest is very hard since there are so many awesome chracters. =]


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 5, 2010)

0. Rikudou Sennin
1. Pain/Nagato (Walked into the strongest village and destroyed it without any trouble. Has attacks that can neutralize almost anything)
2. Hashirama (self explanatory)
3. Madara (self explanatory)
4. Minato (Sealed Kyubi and split its chakra in half, the fastest person in the manga, nearly single handily ended the Third Shinobi World War)
5. Jiraiya: (Strongest Sannin, taught Minato and Naruto, master of Sage Mode Incomplete state)
6. Itachi/Danzo: (Strongest living Uchiha, but stamina brings him down/Immortal for 10 minutes, high jutsu manipulation, wind master)
7. Killer Bee: (Perfected Jinchuuriki)
8. Naruto: (Perfected Sage Mode, highest level of Nature manipulation, controls up to three tails *or more due to his seal being repaired by Minato* of the Kyubi, perfected the Rasengan)
9. Sasuke/Kisame/Ei (The Raikage): (Perfected the Susano'o, but lets anger cloud his judgement, hasn't perfected Tsukuyomi/Jinchuuriki without a tail, strongest Seven Swordsman, best sword for dealing with Jinchuuriki/fastest ninja after Minato, third physically strongest under Tsunade and Naruto, can dodge the Amaterasu and is strong enough to shatter the Susano'o)
10. Orochimaru/Gaara: (Nigh unkillable, master of kinjutsu, could fight with a Four Tailed Kyubi/Insane stamina, sand fast enough to intercept the Amaterasu)
11. Tsunade/Mei Terumi (Mizukage): (Physically the strongest ninja, legendary medical skills/Two Bloodlines, can melt the Susano'o)
12. Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu: (Mid Tier Akatsuki with Deidara the strongest)
13. Kakashi/Kabuto *pre White Snake mastery*/Ao/Shikamaru: (Master of the Sharingan and MS, elemental master/High level medic, intelligent/Discovered Madara's jutsu on Yagura, intelligent, Byakugan master/His high intelligence puts him here)
14. Hidan: (Immortal, fast enough to compete with Kakashi, one hit kill attack)
15. Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old): (Jutsu Master, highly intelligent, but stamina brings him down)
16. Kage Bodyguards (all of them cept for Ao, Darui and Torune the highest, followed by Temari and Fuu, Kankuro and Shi, Akatsuchi and Chojuro, and then Kurotsuchi)


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## Judecious (Apr 5, 2010)

1.Rikudou Sennin
2.shodaime
3.madara
4.minato
5.nagato
6.Tobirama senju
7.SM naruto]
8.MS sasuke]could change spots any time
9.hiruzen(hype)
10.hanzo(hype)
11.HM Jiraiya]
12.itachi]change again anytime to 11
13.Oochimaru
14.Tsunade
15.Kisame
16.Raikage
17.Killer bee
18.Kakashi
19.Mei
20.Sasori

didnt include kabuto


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## Cole (Apr 5, 2010)

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Hashirama Senju (due to massive hype)
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Kabuchimaru w/ Eido Tensei
5. Nagato
6. Naruto w/SM
7. Sasuke w/EMS (should probably be above Naruto)
8.  Danzo/Kisame 
9. Killer Bee
10. Raikage
11. Kakuzu/Jiraiya SM
12. Sasori
13. Orochimaru
14. Onoki
15. Kakashi
16. Mei/Gaara
17. Hidan
18. Tsunade

Note, this is subject to change; I literally made this list in 10 seconds.


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## Mio (Apr 8, 2010)

Why people are still putting Naruto above Sasuke is beyond me.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 8, 2010)

Mio said:


> Why people are still putting Naruto above Sasuke is beyond me.



People putting Minato and Jiraiya above Naruto, and Orochimaru above Sasuke, is even more puzzling, if you ask me.


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## Thunder (Apr 8, 2010)

New list might change

1. Rikudou Sennin
2. Pein (Assume his opponent has no knowledge)
3. Naruto Uzumaki (By end of the manga)
4. Sasuke Uchiha (By end of the manga)
5. Hashirama Senju
6. Madara Uchiha
7. Minato Namikaze
8. Kabuchimaru (By end of the manga)
9. Prime Hiruzen Sarutobi
10. HM Jiraiya
11. Itachi Uchiha
12. Killer Bee
13. Orochimaru
14. Danzo Shimura
15. Raikage
16. Kakazu
17. Sasori
18. Deidara
19. Tobirama Senju
20. Tsunade


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 8, 2010)

Mio said:


> Why people are still putting Naruto above Sasuke is beyond me.


Since manga evidence shows that Naruto is still Sasuke's superior, from his performance against Pain to Zetsu's and Madara's statements.


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 8, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> New list might change
> 
> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> 2. Pein (Assume his opponent has no knowledge)
> ...



Keep in mind with the white fang and hanzou, this was the young sennin to a prime hanzou and the white fang died young, also, I don't think jiraiya use HM, nor did orochimaru use edo tensei in the hanzou fight. ALso, jiraiya was confident in fighting a man who took out hanzou single handidly, meaning jiraiya probably thought he was stronger than hanzou at this point.


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## Thunder (Apr 8, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> Keep in mind with the white fang and hanzou, this was the young sennin to a prime hanzou and the white fang died young, also, I don't think jiraiya use HM, nor did orochimaru use edo tensei in the hanzou fight. ALso, jiraiya was confident in fighting a man who took out hanzou single handidly, meaning jiraiya probably thought he was stronger than hanzou at this point.



Very true. But there many unknowns about the fight. We can't say for sure if Jiraiya used HM or not. We do know he already completed his Sage training by then though, so I don't know why he wouldn't use it. It is very possible that by now Jiraiya surpassed Hanzo, but keep in mind he was fighting all 3 Sannin at once, which is impressive, no matter how you slice it.

About the White Fang, the fact that he was so young, and his reputation already surpassed the Sannin only makes him seem more incredible. Granted, the Sannin were probably not as strong as they are now, but they were still powerful.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 8, 2010)

It's a fair bet the Sannin weren't as strong yet as they'd be later. Keep in mind this was early into the war as it was still going on with no sign of stopping years later. Sakumo was stronger back in the day, but Jiraiya hadn't gotten Sage Mode, Orochimaru wasn't the White Snake....Hanzo beating the Sannin-and others- is an incredible feat....but it's not like he took them all on at their best


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## Thunder (Apr 8, 2010)

True, I decided to take out Hanzo and Sakumo since we have nothing to go on as far as abilities.


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## timmysblood (Apr 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He caught Tenten's kunai in his mouth and was evading Gai, Neji and Lee at once. When obviously quite far from his best. That is quite the speed feat, yes.




It's funny on the exact page you link too he say's he can't escape, all it showed was one panel of him dodgeing shuriken , and the next aparently there's some clash where you can't even tell what's going on.  None of that show's hes faster by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Is his speed really so above a good deal of other characters?



In Part I, yes.

In Part II, not at all. Kakashi was fighting on equal footing with Shoten Itachi - remember the Shoten Itachi had only 30% of his chakra and jutsu power, but his physical stats were the same as the original. Kakashi never once got overwhelmed by his speed.

Hell, not even in Part I was Kakashi actually so overwhelmed by Itachi's speed - it was more his handseal speed which was the problem. And that's Seals - not Speed.

Yet Kakuzu kept up with this same Kakashi and so did Hidan. Yahiko Realm too. Deidara managed to evade and escape Team Gai, which would be much harder than evading or escaping Itachi, as Gai is faster than Itachi, and he also had Lee who is nearly as fast, Neji who had super-fast flowing palms and Tenten's weapons which have at least a fair bit of accuracy. 

So Itachi's speed is nowhere even close to being the highest any more. HM Jiraiya, Gai, SM Naruto, Human Realm, Bee and 4th Raikage outclass him in speed.

And Lord of Thunder, it's more than probable Jiraiya did not use HM against Hanzo. Why? Simple - because Tsunade was around and fighting Hanzo alongside him. As Ma said, Jiraiya didn't like using this transformation in front of women.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 9, 2010)

Human Realm isn't faster.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Human Realm isn't faster.



Of course he is.

I just can't see Itachi even coming close to matching Human Realm's speed in pouncing upon Shizune so darn quick, without even being detected by the ANBU and Inoichi. He showed better reflexes than Itachi as well. 

And anyways, that speed feat is just too wild and high-level a speed feat for even Itachi.  

He also kept up with HM Jiraiya, who too is much faster than Itachi.

And this thread would make a good read:


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since manga evidence shows that Naruto is still Sasuke's superior, from his performance against Pain to Zetsu's and Madara's statements.



As a fan of both Naruto and Sasuke, I have to admit that this is totally ridiculous.

When Zetsu said Naruto was probably stronger than Sasuke, Sasuke had not even mastered Susano'o. 

And yet, for some reason, deny that Kishimoto has made it perfectly clear that both Naruto and Sasuke are now equal in every step of the way, now that Sasuke has fully mastered his Susano'o. 

It's funny how people like to deny certain manga statements, like Naruto having surpassed Minato and Jiraiya, or that Naruto and Sasuke are equals (until EMS). That's basically denying the manga's word - they may as well deny that Ino is weaker than Orochimaru I guess.


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## Deshwitat (Apr 9, 2010)

Note that this is my opinion on _overall strength_, not match-ups. 

1 *Rikudou Sennin*. _With or without the Juubi, this man is above all_. 
His sons should be the ones under him, but I will disregard them.
2 *Hashirama Senju*. _Controlling Bijuu, amazing Genjutsu and Mokuton_. 
3 *Uchiha Madara*. _Fighting on par with Hashirama, EMS, Kyuubi control. 
_4 *Nagato/Pain*. _Destroying Konoha, "testing the Kyuubi", destroying Naruto with Deva realm only. His Ninjutsu are as of now unmatched. Extremely good strength, speed and durability. _
5/6 *Uchiha Itachi*. _ Great mastery over Mangekyou. Amazing speed, best Genjutsu in the manga. _
5/6 *Minato*. _Greatest genius from Konoha, teleportation, creative_. 
7/8/9 *Killerbee*. _ Amazing speed, strength, and durability. Capable of leveling mountains, V2. 
_7/8/9 *Uzumaki Naruto*. _Amazing Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and durability. Great speed and strength, too. 
_7/8/9 *Uchiha Sasuke (MS)*. _Deadly Ninjutsu, great speed, great Genjutsu. Kirin on top of Mangekyou.
_10. *Tobirama Senju.* _Very good hype, apparently great Taijutsu, Edo Tensei. Amazing Suiton. 
_11 *Jiraiya*. _Amazing speed, strength, and offensive power. Deadly barrier Jutsu's and versatile Ninjutsu_. 
12 *Orochimaru*. _Amazing Durability, good speed, great Ninjutsu, possibly great Genjutsu. Edo Tensei and Yamata no Jutsu_. 
13 *Tsunade*. _Her healing, support and Summon is what puts her here. Her fighting, while very good, is not her actual strength. 
_14 *Sasori*. _Amazing Ninjutsu, deadly poison, unlimited potential in his Human puppets. 
_15 *Kisame*. _Always at an advantage, amazing strength, regeneration 
_16 *Ê*. _ The best speed in the manga, great strength and penetration (from Raiton_
17 *Deidara*. _) C4 Garuda, massive explosions. Very tactical_
[/I]18. *Gai*. With Gates, he is very strong, fast and likely durable.
_19. *Onoki*. Flight and haxed Ninjutsu. Prime could be anywhere. 
20. *Kakashi*. Very good warping. Tactical and versatile. Very smart use of Bunshins. 

Danzo is likely around Sasori-Itachi level, Kabutomaru is Pain level. Kakuzu is somewhere between Deidara and Itachi, Hanzou and Sakumo is likely Sannin level, or slightly above. Gaara is somewhere between Deidara and Sasori.   If I missed anyone else, feel free to tell me. If I had more time I'd add manga pages. Might do later._


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara
3. Yakushi Kabuto
4. Killer Bee
5. Uchiha Sasuke
6. Uzumaki Naruto
7. Rikudou Pain
8. Namikaze Minato
9. Shimura Danzo
10. 4th Raikage
11. Uchiha Itachi
12. Orochimaru
13. Jiraiya
14. Hatake Kakashi
15. Kazekage Gaara
16. Sarutobi Hiruzen
17. Senju Tobirama
18. Terumi Mei
19. Tsunade
10. Akasuna no Sasori


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> As a fan of both Naruto and Sasuke, I have to admit that this is totally ridiculous.
> 
> When Zetsu said Naruto was probably stronger than Sasuke, Sasuke had not even mastered Susano'o.


When Zetsu said that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke, Susano'o didn't even MEAN anything. Naruto had beaten the strongest Akatsuki, a guy who could level a village and even in his weakened state, would have been able to solo the Kages. Naruto beat that level of Pain, putting him a tier above Sasuke.


> And yet, for some reason, deny that Kishimoto has made it perfectly clear that both Naruto and Sasuke are now equal in every step of the way, now that Sasuke has fully mastered his Susano'o.


No, they're not. Naruto and Sasuke are not equal if we go by feats. Naruto's feats in the Pain arc put him a level above Sasuke. Susano'o? Even completed, Danzo, using an attack at no where near the level of a Rasenshuriken, nearly broke it for example.


> It's funny how people like to deny certain manga statements, like Naruto having surpassed Minato and Jiraiya, or that Naruto and Sasuke are equals (until EMS). That's basically denying the manga's word - they may as well deny that Ino is weaker than Orochimaru I guess.


Excuse us for using our heads instead of relying on hyperbole then, Wind Master. Naruto, in many people's minds, has NOT surpassed Minato and Jiraiya. He doesn't have as many jutsu as they did, nor had as much experience as they do. In a few years, yeah, Naruto's stronger than them, but _now_, considering how things have progressed? No way in hell.

And Orochimaru is in many ways stronger than Sasuke. And Sasuke _admitted_ that the only reason why he beat Orochimaru was because he was weakened. Orochimaru's massive amount of Jutsu and nigh unkillable physique put him still above Sasuke, even with MS, in many ways.


> On the other hand, though, the level of fandom and hero worship some readers have for Sasuke is just FUCKING laughable and pathetic. Nearly everyone thought that Sasuke was Naruto's equal during the Kage Summit Arc, when he at that arc was not even worth shit and was getting himself pwned constantly.


Tell us, who is this majority? Because on other websites, people think that Kishimoto was giving Sasuke a humiliation conga to show that Zetsu's statements about Naruto being stronger than Sasuke were true.

And frankly yes, Sasuke was pathetic in the Kage Summit. Being pwned several times, attacking without a plan or even backup, _staying in one place and starting a fight with the Raikage even though he didn't need to_? That's pathetic, stupid, and shows that Sasuke had lost any sense of strategic thinking.


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## gkrt (Apr 9, 2010)

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi (Prime)
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Madara Uchiha
5. Nagato (Prime)
6. Itachi Uchiha (Prime)
7. A
8. Killer Bee
9. Naruto/Sasuke
10. Sasuke/Naruto
11. Sasori
12. Kisame
13. Deidara
14. Orochimaru/Jiraiya
15. Jiraiya/Orochimaru
16. Kakuzu
17. Onoki
18. Tsunade
19. Chiyo
20. Mei


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 9, 2010)

I really dislike repeating myself but Danzo's Fuuton didn't break Susano-o. It's wind like properties blew away the condensed Chakra it was made of, hence weakening it. Fuuton Rasenshuriken can't do that. It probably could destroy that version of Susano-o though.

Also, @ person above. Why is Mei and Chiyo on that list instead of Kakashi?


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## gkrt (Apr 9, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Also, @ person above. Why is Mei and Chiyo on that list instead of Kakashi?



Mei: When Mei started melting down the entire room with her jutsu, against Sasuke, he only got away thanks to Susanoo. I doubt Kakashi could survive that.

Chiyo: I don't think Kakashi could beat all of Chiyo's puppets at once. Plus she is an expert at healing. Also Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan is...not exactly accurate, and it wears him out quite quickly.

However, Kakashi is quite close in power to both of them, so don't think that I'm putting them too high. Kakashi would be at number 21.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 9, 2010)

Yes, because Kakashi would definitely give her the time to do that. Right? And he definitely won't have some sort of feint or Doton trickery planned like he usually does.

His Suiton attacks would take lower her puppet's efficiency. His Rikari would tear right through them too, he also has excellent Taijutsu skills, a Sharingan and good speed to boot too. His Kamui isn't accurate? Oh yeah, I suppose your right. It only managed to warp away a small nail blasted at him via Shinra Tensei, a missile and a fast speeding arrow fired by a large manifestation of Chakra.


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## Sanbi (Apr 9, 2010)

Not exactly accurate? Is this a joke? He stopped a small nail, speeding towards him powered by ST, and hit a moving missile while exhausted. If anything it is the most accurate jutsu he has.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Of course he is.
> 
> I just can't see Itachi even coming close to matching Human Realm's speed in pouncing upon Shizune so darn quick, without even being detected by the ANBU and Inoichi. He showed better reflexes than Itachi as well.
> 
> ...



Keep in mind itachi was fast enough to fight kuninai and kakashi at the same time, he may not be quickest in a foot race, but he has the fastest handseals in the manga which makes all of his move come out very quick thus making him a very hard character to keep up with in a fight.


And im not making any claims that sasuke is stronger then naruto im just wondering why ppl think naruto is superior when naruto stated himself he needs full control over his kyubi chakra in order to beat sasuke


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## Extasee (Apr 9, 2010)

1.) Sage of Six Paths
2.) Madara
3.) 9 Tails
4.) Kabuto
5.) Giant Toad sage
6.) Naruto/Sasuke
7.) Kisame
8.) Raikage
9.) Killer Bee
10.) Jiriya
11.) Kakashi
12.) Itachi
13.)Tsunadae
14.) Danzou
15.) Shikamaru
16.) Suigetsu
17.) Juugo
18.) Karin
19.) Sai
20.) Kakuzu


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 9, 2010)

In overall strength, Naruto and Sasuke are around level. But Sasuke is definitely much more deadly, due to him being more willing to use his trump card.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 9, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> In overall strength, Naruto and Sasuke are around level. But Sasuke is definitely much more deadly, due to him being more willing to use his trump card.



I was thinking the same thing and now with the ems if he has itachi like potency with his moves then i just see sasuke being extremly haxxed, i hate how sasuke rareley works for his power.


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## daschysta (Apr 9, 2010)

gkrt said:


> Mei: When Mei started melting down the entire room with her jutsu, against Sasuke, he only got away thanks to Susanoo. I doubt Kakashi could survive that.
> 
> Chiyo: I don't think Kakashi could beat all of Chiyo's puppets at once. Plus she is an expert at healing. Also Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan is...not exactly accurate, and it wears him out quite quickly.
> 
> However, Kakashi is quite close in power to both of them, so don't think that I'm putting them too high. Kakashi would be at number 21.




That jutsu is made to be used in a enclosed space. Kakashi could just doton away, not that hard. It is stupid to put her above him based on no feats and a jutsu that can be easily avoided by kakashi's most basic move. Makes no sense. And yes kakashi's MS is accurate, or have you not seen him absorb two susanoo arrows at once that move faster than the body can react. Chiyo is a stationary fighter, she isnt a challenge at all if kamui is in play.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> When Zetsu said that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke, Susano'o didn't even MEAN anything. Naruto had beaten the strongest Akatsuki, a guy who could level a village and even in his weakened state, would have been able to solo the Kages. Naruto beat that level of Pain, putting him a tier above Sasuke.
> 
> No, they're not. Naruto and Sasuke are not equal if we go by feats. Naruto's feats in the Pain arc put him a level above Sasuke. Susano'o? Even completed, Danzo, using an attack at no where near the level of a Rasenshuriken, nearly broke it for example.
> 
> ...





Sasuke's Susano'o was complete - but it didn't have its armor and its weapons were not as strong as they could have been in a complete state.

Anyway, so, you're not going to take the author's word? Okay, just fine.

Do you even understand the meaning of hyperbole, Saiya? Why do people try this hard to deny the author's word? Experience isn't everything - otherwise, Oro would have beaten Itachi, Chiyo would have beaten Sasori, and Sarutobi would have beaten Oro. They didn't - each time the older generation with far more experience were owned.

As for jutsu mastery, why not try and argue why Orochimaru has a gazillion more techniques than Itachi, and yet he always loses to him in combat? Or the fact that Jiraiya, also with several jutsu, lost to Pain who had not that many jutsu or that much experience?

If you use your head, you follow the writer's word.


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## Thunder (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Sasuke's Susano'o was complete - but it didn't have its armor and its weapons were not as strong as they could have been in a complete state.
> 
> Anyway, so, you're not going to take the author's word? Okay, just fine.
> 
> ...



What would your list be, Wind?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Sasuke's Susano'o was complete - but it didn't have its armor and its weapons were not as strong as they could have been in a complete state.


That's a fallacy, we don't even know what the new armor would have done, and Sasuke's Susano'o would have still lacked the Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror.



> Do you even understand the meaning of hyperbole, Saiya? Why do people try this hard to deny the author's word? Experience isn't everything - otherwise, Oro would have beaten Itachi, Chiyo would have beaten Sasori, and Sarutobi would have beaten Oro. They didn't - each time the older generation with far more experience were owned.


Orochimaru didn't even have the White Snake when he faced Itachi, Chiyo needed help to beat Sasori, and Sarutobi did win in a phyrric victory against Orochimaru.

Experience DOES mean a lot in combat.


> As for jutsu mastery, why not try and argue why Orochimaru has a gazillion more techniques than Itachi, and yet he always loses to him in combat? Or the fact that Jiraiya, also with several jutsu, lost to Pain who had not that many jutsu or that much experience?


Know why Orochimaru always lost to Itachi? Sharingan genjutsu was his kryptonite. In a straight up ninjutsu battle, Orochimaru would win more likely than not. And Jiraiya was able to beat three Pain bodies, but he let down his guard and he lost due to the fact Pain could counter every one of his powers.

Naruto and Sasuke still have a long way to go to surpass Jiraiya, Minato, Itachi, and Orochimaru in pure power. When Naruto masters the Kyubi, he can finally be truly seen as stronger than his father and master, and when Sasuke masters EMS he'll finally be stronger than Itachi and Orochimaru. That's the simple fact.

And Naruto and Sasuke-they weren't equals. Naruto was still on a slightly higher tier than Sasuke during the Five Kage Summit arc. Sasuke routinely got humiliated during the arc, after all.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2010)

Sasuke didn't even have Susano'o when Zetsu compared Naruto and Sasuke IIRC. I don't think Zetsu even knew Sasuke had awoken Amaterasu, which means Sasuke didn't really have anything at that point.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> Sasuke didn't even have Susano'o when Zetsu compared Naruto and Sasuke IIRC


Susano'o-again, it DOES NOT make much difference. Susano'o isn't an unbeatable technique, it has limits, and makes Sasuke slower, unable to use his high speed in combat.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Naruto and Sasuke-they weren't equals. Naruto was still on a slightly higher tier than Sasuke during the Five Kage Summit arc. Sasuke routinely got humiliated during the arc, after all.



Nah, during the 5 Kage Summit, Naruto wasn't slightly better - he was FAR better. But after completing his Susano'o, I would say they're equals, as that's what the manga says.

And as for you thinking Naruto and Sasuke have a long way to go to surpass their benchmarks, that's just plain wrong. Naruto has shown much to prove he is stronger than Jiraiya and Minato hasn't shown all that much. Although I believe Minato can beat Naruto in a fight.

Sasuke surpassed Itachi without EMS, but that's just my opinion. 

In a straight up Ninjutsu battle, Itachi would still take it, with Susano'o. But Genjutsu is not Orochimaru's kryptonite. This is just plain wrong. He never showed any particular weakness against it and was capable of breaking Itachi's Genjutsu as well, but Itachi cut his arms off before he did it. It would hurt no one easier than it would do to Oro.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o-again, it DOES NOT make much difference. Susano'o isn't an unbeatable technique, it has limits, and makes Sasuke slower, unable to use his high speed in combat.



Why do you think it makes Sasuke slower? It is rather unbeatable IIRC.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Nah, during the 5 Kage Summit, Naruto wasn't slightly better - he was FAR better. But after completing his Susano'o, I would say they're equals, as that's what the manga says.


Yeah, its not like Susano'o makes Sasuke move as slow as a snail and gradually blinds him while Naruto in Sage Mode would be able to dance around the arrows and Susano'o's fist...


> And as for you thinking Naruto and Sasuke have a long way to go to surpass their benchmarks, that's just plain wrong. Naruto has shown much to prove he is stronger than Jiraiya and Minato hasn't shown all that much. Although I believe Minato can beat Naruto in a fight.


Naruto hasn't shown that he's surpassed Jiraiya. Not even close. The only things that he's surpassed Jiraiya in are Sage Mode and the Rasengan, while Jiraiya has loads more powers.



> In a straight up Ninjutsu battle, Itachi would still take it, with Susano'o. But Genjutsu is not Orochimaru's kryptonite. This is just plain wrong. He never showed any particular weakness against it and was capable of breaking Itachi's Genjutsu as well, but Itachi cut his arms off before he did it. It would hurt no one easier than it would do to Oro.


Sharingan Genjutsu is Orochimaru's weakness, he has a long, hard time countering it. And Susano'o, Orochimaru simply fights out of Itachi's range until Itachi exhausts most of his life source.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 9, 2010)

About Danzo breaking Susanoo:


1.look at the lower left corner, basicly madara said everything important here
(  ), also watch the cannon ball and it's size, reason --> izanagi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> Why do you think it makes Sasuke slower? It is rather unbeatable IIRC.


Whenever Sasuke needed to avoid a attack or get moving, he needed to drop Susano'o or shrink it to its baby form. 

And that's _Itachi's_ Susano'o, which has the Yata Mirror. However, it _still_ wasn't able to block the Kirin fully, hence why Itachi lost his cloak and got burned.



sasuke uciha boy said:


> About Danzo breaking Susanoo:
> 
> 
> 1.look at the lower left corner, basicly madara said everything important here
> (  ), also watch the cannon ball and it's size, reason --> izanagi


...that wasn't what I was referring to, Jizz.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> Why do you think it makes Sasuke slower? It is rather unbeatable IIRC.



Agreed, there is nothing which says Sasuke gets slower. It's just that running around with such a shield isn't really necessary, standing in one place just seems better, it's that much of a stomp.

Oh, and Saiya, Naruto's Frog Katas, FRS and Superior SM are the reason why he is stronger than Jiraiya.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Oh, and Saiya, Naruto's Frog Katas, FRS and Superior SM are the reason why he is stronger than Jiraiya.


And Jiraiya has superior summoning abilities, many immobilization jutsus, high level taijutsu and tactical intelligence...

And what good are Frog Katas against a guy who can see Natural Chakra and react accordingly?


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2010)

Naruto has better Taijutsu than Jiraiya and equal tactical intelligence, I'd say. Which leaves Jiraiya with his hair and a larger variety of Kuchiyose Ninjutsu. Frog Katas would still be useful as Naruto is faster and uses clones so he could probably land a hit. Also, if you are comparing Naruto and Jiraiya in a direct battle, Jiraiya wouldn't be able to enter Hermit Mode.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 9, 2010)

I said in other topic:

I think Jiraya holds two huge advantages, one, his Sage Mode lasts MUCH longer, and can possibily be held for a very long time, due to the two Sage frogs attached to him. The second is the Genjutsu, it's not just the frog song, it's the ability to be snapped out of Genjutsu by the two sage frogs. Jirayas combination jutsu vs Pein was impressive, so  also Ninjutsu victory.Jirayas experience is also a major factor, but let's not forget the only true injuries Jiraya sustained where by Tsunade, Pein and finaly Naruto (even though the Fox Mode).

Naruto has stamina and health regeneration factors, it seems Jiraya didn't regen very fast, or regened at all, while Naruto has a naturaly high regen ability thanks to his fox, enhanced by the Sage Mode (We can see Naruto regening after Sasuke punchered him in Part I, a hole from side to side on his shoulder).

I think Naruto is a bit faster then Jiraya though. Raw strenght they are probably equal

I'd say that Jiraiya is bit stronger


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Whenever Sasuke needed to avoid a attack or get moving, he needed to drop Susano'o or shrink it to its baby form.
> 
> And that's _Itachi's_ Susano'o, which has the Yata Mirror. However, it _still_ wasn't able to block the Kirin fully, hence why Itachi lost his cloak and got burned.



But it likely didn't fully form in the split second that lightning came down. Also, Sasuke was shown running while Susano'o was attacking IIRC. Itachi obviously wasn't because he was exhausted and had pulled a giant blade out of his leg earlier.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 9, 2010)

The problem with Naruto is that he still has no defense vs Genjutsu, he might have enough Chakra to dispell most average Genjutsu, but Sharingans Genjutsu are not average, so i'm sure Sasuke can still surpress it, just like he did before.



Naruto = Protagonist
Sasuke = Antagonist
Please do remember this, Naruto will beat Sasuke in the end, but for now Sasuke has the edge.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2010)

Once we find out that Naruto needs the Kyūbi no Yōko to overwhelm Dōjutsu Genjutsu this Sage nonsense will slow down.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> The problem with Naruto is that he still has no defense vs Genjutsu, he might have enough Chakra to dispell most average Genjutsu, but Sharingans Genjutsu are not average, so i'm sure Sasuke can still surpress it, just like he did before.


Given how Naruto can break Nagato's control, I'd say he has a high chance of breaking any genjutsu that Sasuke tries on him.



> Naruto = Protagonist
> Sasuke = Antagonist
> Please do remember this, Naruto will beat Sasuke in the end, but for now Sasuke has the edge.


No, he doesn't. Naruto has an edge until Sasuke masters his EMS.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 9, 2010)

Sage Mode may be more resistant, but by no means it's imune. Sage Mode is a balance of all the Chakra, and since the Genjutsu disrupts normal chakra flow, it might even crash Sage Mode all together with an illusion. Sage Mode is an ability grasped by people with a big chakra pool and chakra control, this is good to break regular genjutsu, as i said, but Sharingans Genjutsu are a blood lined ability, and these blood lined abilities seem to have no actual limit in their power and effect (as far as we've seen).

There's other points besides Gejutsu, how is Naruto gonna dodge Amaterasu and/or Kirin? Raikage used Body Flicker Jutsu and, well, sacrificed an hand to do this, but Naruto doesn't use such a jutsu, Danzo was caught and killed, also reborn, he is 72 year old geezer with enough knowledge about everything, still, he had to use Izanagi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 9, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> There's other points besides Gejutsu, how is Naruto gonna dodge Amaterasu and/or Kirin? Raikage used Body Flicker Jutsu and, well, sacrificed an hand to do this, but Naruto doesn't use such a jutsu, Danzo was caught and killed, also reborn, he is 72 year old geezer with enough knowledge about everything, still, he had to use Izanagi.


By dancing around it. Naruto can use a Kiriwami to avoid the Amaterasu or leap over it. And A only lost his arm because he _willingly_ smashed his palm through Sasuke's Shield of Amaterasu to injure him. 

As to Kirin-interrupt it before it's even cast.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> By dancing around it. Naruto can use a Kiriwami to avoid the Amaterasu or leap over it. And A only lost his arm because he _willingly_ smashed his palm through Sasuke's Shield of Amaterasu to injure him.
> 
> As to Kirin-interrupt it before it's even cast.



A Kage Bunshin would block Amaterasu, and he could simply dodge the Kirin *fast *with Shunshin no Jutsu.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 9, 2010)

lolz at ppl believing naruto has the reactivness to dodge kirin with a shushin no jutsu. Naruto can die from a susano arrow, not even kakashi has the speed to react to it.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2010)

Naruto can't dodge Kirin. Please don't even...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 9, 2010)

Lelouchprince3 said:


> lolz at ppl believing naruto has the reactivness to dodge kirin with a shushin no jutsu. Naruto can die from a susano arrow, not even kakashi has the speed to react to it.



And Naruto is a hell lot faster than Kakashi in SM.

But yeah, I take it back, Naruto won't dodge Kirin, but he can still stop Sasuke from doing so. But if Sasuke preps it in the air, it will be much harder and near impossible even.


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## Lelouchprince3 (Apr 9, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> And Naruto is a hell lot faster than Kakashi in SM.
> 
> But yeah, I take it back, Naruto won't dodge Kirin, but he can still stop Sasuke from doing so. But if Sasuke preps it in the air, it will be much harder and near impossible even.



I wasnt assuming naruto was in it, because sasuke spams all his jutsu, and naruto needs prep time for it,


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 9, 2010)

Hes gonna convieniantly have FRS out at the time kirin comes to block it.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 10, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> Hes gonna convieniantly have FRS out at the time kirin comes to block it.



And FRS seems to be stronger than Kirin.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 10, 2010)

Sasuke can use hawk summon and fly out of range to prepare for Kirin.



Wind Master said:


> And FRS seems to be stronger than Kirin.



Probably equal.
rasengan=chidori
Kirin=FRS
MS=Sage Mode or MS>Sage Mode
EMS=Naruto with kyuubi's chakra


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 10, 2010)

Naruto can not only throw the FRS, it has also become about 50x stronger than before. The Giant Rasengan was stated to be powerful enough to hollow out an entire mountain, like Kirin did. The FRS is stronger than the Giant Rasengan, much stronger, so I would say it's stronger than Kirin, most probably.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Jiraiya has superior summoning abilities, many immobilization jutsus, high level taijutsu and tactical intelligence...
> 
> And what good are Frog Katas against a guy who can see Natural Chakra and react accordingly?



The trouble is, Jiraiya won't even be able to enter Hermit Mode against Naruto, as Selim said.

Jiraiya has superior summoning abilities and many immobilization jutsus. But just because Jiraiya can see it, doesn't mean he can dodge the range of the Frog Katas and necessarily prevent a blow from connecting. 

Plus, Naruto can also use KBs and even TKB if necessary to create more Naruto who can barrage Jiraiya with Frog Katas. The only reason he couldn't use TKB against Pain was because creating too many clones in SM while he had two SM Clones already prepped at Myobokuzan would interfere with his own SM. But, once those clones were gone, he was capable of producing a TKB in SM and transforming them into several rocks, before going back into Base again.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Jiraiya has superior summoning abilities, many immobilization jutsus, high level taijutsu and tactical intelligence...
> 
> And what good are Frog Katas against a guy who can see Natural Chakra and react accordingly?



The trouble is, Jiraiya won't even be able to enter Hermit Mode against Naruto, as Selim said.

Jiraiya has superior summoning abilities and many immobilization jutsus. But just because Jiraiya can see it, doesn't mean he can dodge the range of the Frog Katas and necessarily prevent a blow from connecting. 

Plus, Naruto can also use KBs and even TKB if necessary to create more Naruto who can barrage Jiraiya with Frog Katas. The only reason he couldn't use TKB against Pain was because creating too many clones in SM while he had two SM Clones already prepped at Myobokuzan would interfere with his own SM. But, once those clones were gone, he was capable of producing a TKB in SM and transforming them into several rocks, before going back into Base again.


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## DreadTalon (Apr 10, 2010)

Naruto can't avoid amaterasu, Sasuke just has to look at him and he's caught.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 10, 2010)

DreadTalon said:


> Naruto can't avoid amaterasu, Sasuke just has to look at him and he's caught.



Kage Bunshin can block it.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 10, 2010)

Sharingan can see kage bunshins like Sasuke said it himself when he was fighting Naruto at the Valley of End.

I doubt Naruto has the speed to avoid the amaterasu. The sharingan aoutomatically follow movements and the amatrasu ingnites whatever it looks at so it is really hard to avoid. Very few people could reach that speed. Itachi, the Raikage, Minato and Might Guy is probably the only ones that could.


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## Csdabest (Apr 10, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Sharingan can see kage bunshins like Sasuke said it himself when he was fighting Naruto at the Valley of End.
> 
> I doubt Naruto has the speed to avoid the amaterasu. The sharingan aoutomatically follow movements and the amatrasu ingnites whatever it looks at so it is really hard to avoid. Very few people could reach that speed. Itachi, the Raikage, Minato and Might Guy is probably the only ones that could.



wrong. Thats anime filler.

Naruto isnt faster than Kakashi by any means. Not in SM not in Base. And he damn sure dont have reaction better than Sharingan Kakashi.  Attacks That naruto cant dodge. Susano-o Arrow, amaterasu, Kirin.
Sasuke will always be more powerful. Its already been confirmed that the only way Naruto will win is via Itachi's gift. SM naruto was seen to be bearly stronger than the Sasuke that fought Kirabi. Sasuke after he mastered his MS was alot more powerful than that hence being stronger than Naruto. EMS Sasuke. plus experience will shit on SM naruto. He going to need Kyuubi to hold a candle. But Raikage is still pretty powerful.


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 10, 2010)

Csdabest said:


> wrong. Thats anime filler.
> 
> Naruto isnt faster than Kakashi by any means. Not in SM not in Base. And he damn sure dont have reaction better than Sharingan Kakashi.  Attacks That naruto cant dodge. Susano-o Arrow, amaterasu, Kirin.
> Sasuke will always be more powerful. Its already been confirmed that the only way Naruto will win is via Itachi's gift. SM naruto was seen to be bearly stronger than the Sasuke that fought Kirabi. Sasuke after he mastered his MS was alot more powerful than that hence being stronger than Naruto. EMS Sasuke. plus experience will shit on SM naruto. He going to need Kyuubi to hold a candle. But Raikage is still pretty powerful.



Naruto is much faster than him in SM, and comparable in base.


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## ? (Apr 10, 2010)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto isnt faster than Kakashi by any means.


feats disagree.


> Not in SM not in Base.


base naruto already blitzed kakashi. SM naruto blitzed the same guy that blitzed kakashi's raikiri.


> And he damn sure dont have reaction better than Sharingan Kakashi.


proof or GTFO. he already has speed feats on par or above.


> Attacks That naruto cant dodge. Susano-o Arrow, amaterasu, Kirin.


so? he has other ways to deal with those.


> Sasuke will always be more powerful.




-snip-just because you love sasuke and hate naruto, that doesn't make it true. whether you like it or not, they will always be around the same level. in the end, naruto will likely be the stronger one as the main character ( despite his fans belief, sasuke isn't).


> Its already been confirmed that the only way Naruto will win is via Itachi's gift.


confirmed by you 

you have no idea what that crow is for, so don't come spouting BS, and calling it canon. 


> SM naruto was seen to be bearly stronger than the Sasuke that fought Kirabi.


don't state opinion as fact, bro.


> Sasuke after he mastered his MS was alot more powerful than that hence being stronger than Naruto.


yet, we have manga canon claiming SM naruto is = to fully mastered MS sasuke 


> EMS Sasuke. plus experience will shit on SM naruto. He going to need Kyuubi to hold a candle.


proof that EMS sasuke is that much stronger or GTFO.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Apr 10, 2010)

inu you and in both no ems sasuke shits on sm naruto stop joking dont let fandom cloud your judgement.

also naruto most likely will win only because itachis gift way else would he have it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 10, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> inu you and in both no ems sasuke shits on sm naruto stop joking dont let fandom cloud your judgement.
> 
> also naruto most likely will win only because itachis gift way else would he have it.


1. Stop fanboying for Sasuke. We don't even know what EMS does, if it just removes the limit that the MS has for blindness, it isn't much of an upgrade.

2. No, the way that Naruto will win is becoming the perfect Jinchuuriki.

Dear god, why have so many of you become Sasutards?


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## ? (Apr 10, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> inu you and in both no ems sasuke shits on sm naruto stop joking dont let fandom cloud your judgement.


 you talk as if you have *seen* EMS sasuke fight.

i agree EMS sasuke is stronger, but there is no evidence he is significantly stronger or leagues above naruto , like the person i quoted was trying to say as fact.


> also naruto most likely will win only because itachis gift way else would he have it.


i don't know this, and you don't so just stop.

and i do find it funny itachi gave naruto the gift after finding out naruto would not fight sasuke to kill him, but to save him. so this means at the very most, itachi thinks naruto can't beat sasuke without killer intent while trying to protect konoha.


----------



## BAD BD (Apr 10, 2010)

EMS Sasuke can use the MS techniques without the negative effects. That makes him a hell of a lot stronger than he was before.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Apr 10, 2010)

1. Nagato
2. Tobi/Minato (going by hiraishin, shikki fujen, rasengan, and itelligence feats)
3. Kabuchimaru w/ Eido Tensei
4. Jiraiya
5. Naruto w/SM
6. Sasuke w/MS
7. Killerbee
8. Itachi
9. Orochimaru
10. Kisame
11. Sasori
12. Danzou/Third hokage(less hacked abilities, but makes much better use of the fundamentals)
13. Onoki
14. Kakashi
15. Mei/Gaara
16. Kakuzu
17. Deidara
18. Hashirama
19. Tobirama
20. Tsunade


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 10, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> 1. Nagato
> 2. Tobi
> 3. Kabuchimaru w/ Eido Tensei
> 4. Jiraiya
> ...



4th hokage?3rd hokage?

And I must ask why is hashimara 18th lol?


----------



## Thunder (Apr 10, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> 1. Nagato
> 2. Tobi
> 3. Kabuchimaru w/ Eido Tensei
> 4. Jiraiya
> ...



Good list. I am just wondering why Tobi is before Hashirama, when he lost to him. And why is Hash so low? he should be before Tobi, or at least after.


----------



## beij (Apr 10, 2010)

i am leaving Rikudo sage or the list to avoid conflict, as i feel there are a few current sharingan users who could defeat him, but dont want to have conflict over this at the moment. also leaving out the senju's and minato, as they are overated and barely make the top 20

1 Uchiha Madara
2 Shimura Danzo
3 Uchiha Sasuke (with EMS)
4 Nagato/6 paths of Pain
5 Sasori
6 Gaara
7 Hatake Kakashi
8 Uchiha Itachi
9 Hoshigake Kisame
10 Killer B
11 Kakuzu
12 Deidara
13 Uzamaki Naruto
14 orochimaru/Kabuto (probably should be higher; dont feel like changing list, but he should be in the top 10)
15 Jiraiya
16 A (Raikage)
17 Maito Gai (possibly above A in high gates)
18 Torune
19 Tsunade
20 Hidan/Konan/Zetsu


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 10, 2010)

He is probably doing the list based on their feats.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 10, 2010)

beij said:


> i am leaving Rikudo sage or the list to avoid conflict, as i feel there are a few current sharingan users who could defeat him, but dont want to have conflict over this at the moment. also leaving out the senju's and minato, as they are overated and barely make the top 20
> 
> 1 Uchiha Madara
> 2 Shimura Danzo
> ...



Why no Senju?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 10, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Why no Senju?



becose:



> also leaving out the senju's and minato, as they are overated and barely make the top 20




lol


----------



## Thunder (Apr 10, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> becose:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I read that, I'm wondering why they don't make the top 20. Just curious


----------



## beij (Apr 10, 2010)

the senju have nno real feats

how do they counter anybody in the top 10? or top 20 for that matter?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 10, 2010)

beij said:


> the senju have nno real feats
> 
> how do they counter anybody in the top 10? or top 20 for that matter?



Shodai defeated Madara(prime)-That is a feat enough.


----------



## Thunder (Apr 10, 2010)

If you are going by just feats, then that's fine.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 10, 2010)

By that logic, Madara shouldn't count since he has no feats. And no way in HELL is EMS Sasuke above Pain, that's just stupid Beij.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Apr 10, 2010)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto isnt faster than Kakashi by any means. Not in SM not in Base. And he damn sure dont have reaction better than Sharingan Kakashi.
> 
> Attacks That naruto cant dodge. Susano-o Arrow, amaterasu, Kirin.
> Sasuke will always be more powerful. Its already been confirmed that the only way Naruto will win is via Itachi's gift.
> ...


lets be real about this. kakashi is faster than base Naruto. Thats it. Kakashis speed feats dont compare to SM narutos so no Kakashi is no as fast or even faster than SM naruto. I dont think the gap is huge but he sure as hell is not faster.

Lucky for naruto he has KBs. he doesnt have to dodge Susano arrow. Hell he can bunshin feint amaterasu as well. And kirin takes too much prep... lol like we will ever see it again anyway. Actually the mangaka made it a point to mention at least 5 times in 1 chapter that the two are evenly matched and would both die together resulting in a draw. What itachis gift even _is_ is an unknown and idk how its been confirmed if the fight hasnt happened. Common sense ftw. dont make things up.

I guess you missed the chapter where it talks about the two being equal and dying together. Please but aside your bias for a little bit and actually pay attention to what the manga is conveying. experience? yeah like kakuzus and pains experience really helped them against naruto. Oh wait! It didnt. How big a role the kyuubi will play in the upcoming fight is unknown. we already know that the two are equals (MS Sasuke and Naruto) so now EMS and Kyuubi will both be implemented.

Try to not ignore canon when you post


----------



## Semplice (Apr 10, 2010)

H Senju kicked Madara's @$$ before, though...


----------



## Jodyjoe the great (Apr 10, 2010)

Inu said:


> you talk as if you have *seen* EMS sasuke fight.
> 
> i agree EMS sasuke is stronger, but there is no evidence he is significantly stronger or leagues above naruto , like the person i quoted was trying to say as fact.




Naruto said ms sasuke could beat him logicaly speaking he should not stand a chance agasint ems Sasuke but yea its not a fact just the reasonable outcome.




> i don't know this, and you don't so just stop.
> 
> and i do find it funny itachi gave naruto the gift after finding out naruto would not fight sasuke to kill him, but to save him. so this means at the very most, itachi thinks naruto can't beat sasuke without killer intent while trying to protect konoha.



who knows itachi planed on sasuke attacking the village and give naruto some of his power to make sure he was stoped if nessesary

It could be anything but its supposed to stop him


----------



## sanji's left eye (Apr 10, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> Naruto said ms sasuke could beat him logicaly speaking he should not stand a chance agasint ems Sasuke but yea its not a fact just the reasonable outcome.


thats some false cause and effect. I agree that logically if MS Sasuke=SM Naruto then EMS Sasuke>SM naruto but since no one knows the extent of which EMS will increase his power than saying that he wouldnt stand a chance is goign overboard.


----------



## Sadgoob (Apr 10, 2010)

lol wat?

MS = SM so intuitively EMS = SM

Okay.


----------



## sanji's left eye (Apr 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> lol wat?
> 
> MS = SM so intuitively EMS = SM
> 
> Okay.



wow someone said that? thats pretty unreasonable


----------



## Sanbi (Apr 10, 2010)

No one said that Illusory......


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 11, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> Naruto said ms sasuke could beat him logicaly speaking he should not stand a chance agasint ems Sasuke but yea its not a fact just the reasonable outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



False. Naruto said that if he and Sasuke ever fought, they would both die and it would hence be a tie. Or even if one won, he would die soon afterwards from fatal injuries and the strain of the battle.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Apr 11, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Good list. I am just wondering why Tobi is before Hashirama, when he lost to him. And why is Hash so low? he should be before Tobi, or at least after.



Featwise tobi is shown to be intangible, which alone puts him above everywon before him, while the only actual feats we have of hashirama are in the sarutobi fight as a zombie, in which he wasnt nearly as impressive as the rest. He has shown to be godly with bijuu, but all the bijuu are sealed in something ATM leaving him with shitty feats.

Ill put minato and the third in forgot about them.



> lol wat?
> 
> MS = SM so intuitively EMS = SM
> 
> Okay.



Id say MS=SM (furthest itachi and jiraiya took the powerups)
And   EMS=KSM (another step ahead, taken by their respective paralells.)


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 11, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> Featwise tobi is shown to be intangible, which alone puts him above everywon before him, while the only actual feats we have of hashirama are in the sarutobi fight as a zombie, in which he wasnt nearly as impressive as the rest. He has shown to be godly with bijuu, but all the bijuu are sealed in something ATM leaving him with shitty feats.
> 
> Ill put minato and the third in forgot about them.
> 
> ...



And Hiruzen was old when we saw him in the manga, yet we measure his Prime Capacity.

The Tailed Beasts were part of Hashirama's power, btw.

And it's not that Hashirama was weak in Edo Tensei, it's just that Orochimaru was using him and Tobirama to toy with Orochimaru. As he clearly said to Sarutobi himself.

Hashirama was a lot stronger than Old Sarutobi, even without Bijuu. Now if it was Sarutobi Prime, he'd be stronger, but the Bijuu tilt it in the First's favor again.


----------



## DarkRasengan (Apr 11, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> And Hiruzen was old when we saw him in the manga, yet we measure his Prime Capacity.
> 
> The Tailed Beasts were part of Hashirama's power, btw.
> 
> ...



You can say bijuu were part of his power, but they are all sealed now making him unable to use them if he were here today. Also, old sarutobi was confident he could beet hashirama and tobirama at the same time. We have no confirmation on the actual control of bijuu he had. We don't know if he could summon them to battle at any time and completely controll their every movement, or if he simply found them/ supressed them, and unleashed them on the enemy when he was attacking them.


----------



## Shizune (Apr 11, 2010)

1 - Kabuto
2 - Nagato
3 - Itachi
4 - Jiraiya
5 - Orochimaru
6 - Kakuzu
7 - Raikage
8 - Tsuchikage
9 - Sasori
10 - Mizukage
11 - Kisame
12 - Kirabi
13 - Sasuke
14 - Deidara
15 - Gaara
16 - Naruto
17 - Kakashi
18 - Tsunade
19 - Chiyo
20 - Hiruzen

NOTE: This is a general account for all feats for the characters, in/out of prime and healthy/unhealthy.

I did not include Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato or Madara because we have no solid feats for them.


----------



## Sanbi (Apr 11, 2010)

Where is Naruto?


----------



## Shizune (Apr 11, 2010)

Is it funny that I completely forgot the main character?


----------



## sanji's left eye (Apr 11, 2010)

Alkonis said:


> 1 - Kabuto
> 2 - Nagato
> 3 - Itachi
> 4 - Jiraiya
> ...



while i disagree with this list wholeheartedly i feel like i must ask where is Naruto?

Edit: Sanbi ninja'd me nvm. Lol now the list makes even less sense


----------



## Shizune (Apr 11, 2010)

Fixed like a pr0


----------



## DarkRasengan (Apr 11, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> while i disagree with this list wholeheartedly i feel like i must ask where is Naruto?
> 
> Edit: Sanbi ninja'd me nvm. Lol now the list makes even less sense



Agreed....


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## Sanbi (Apr 11, 2010)

You also forgot Danzo, Shiz.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 11, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> You also forgot Danzo, Shiz.



and put it them in the wrong order 

however ill admit that these lists need to be based on something. matchups are key in the narutoverse.


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## Shizune (Apr 11, 2010)

I don't feel that Danzo is top twenty material.

Almost, but not quite.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 11, 2010)

tsunade and chiyo superior to danzou? ill be here all day if i keep criticizing that list but...


----------



## Shizune (Apr 11, 2010)

Tsunade invented the field of medical ninjutsu and Chiyo sealed a Bijuu and solod a castle.

Yeah, I'm going to have to say they're above Danzo.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 11, 2010)

Alkonis said:


> Tsunade invented the field of medical ninjutsu and Chiyo sealed a Bijuu and solod a castle.
> 
> Yeah, I'm going to have to say they're above Danzo.


does inventing medical ninjutsu give her more credibility in a fight against danzou somehow? if danzou was a bjuu maybe youd have a point. if the specs of the castle were given out and if we knew how large it was and if any ninja were in there than maybe youd have a point.

all of that in no way shape or form makes them stronger than danzou.


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 11, 2010)

Alkonis said:


> Tsunade invented the field of medical ninjutsu and Chiyo sealed a Bijuu and solod a castle.
> 
> Yeah, I'm going to have to say they're above Danzo.



And Amaterasu has been said to be as hot as then sun. Go by visible feats, not by hype.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Apr 11, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> And Amaterasu has been said to be as hot as then sun. Go by visible feats, not by hype.



wat? thats not even the same thing those are things they actually did as accomplishments.


----------



## Nic (Apr 11, 2010)

1.   Sage of the Six Paths
2. Nagato/Pain
3. Sandaime
4.   Minato Namikaze
5.Shoai
6.   Uchiha Madara
7.   Tobirama Senju
8.   Sasuke Uchiha
9.   Naruto Uzumaki
10. Itachi Uchiha
11. Jiraiya
12. Raikage
13. Killerbee
14. Kisame Hoshigaki
15. Orochimaru
16. Danzo
17. Kimimaro Kaguya
18. Hanzo
19. Kakuzu
20. Jugo


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 11, 2010)

the list as a whole isnt bad just a few quirks for me. only 2 big ones are juugo/kimmimaro. so appaprently they are stronger than hanzou, tsuchikage, mizukage, tsunade, hidan, deidara, sasori, kakashi, etc.? that doesnt seem right IMHO.


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## David (Apr 11, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> wat? thats not even the same thing those are things they actually did as accomplishments.



The surface of the sun is about 5500 °C, and the core is around 3000 times hotter than that

If Ameratsu were as hot as the sun every character in the entire Narutoverse would've been melted by the extreme heat upon its release.


----------



## Csdabest (Apr 11, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> Naruto is much faster than him in SM, and comparable in base.



Naruto NEVER speed blitz deva which was the closest thing to compare. Naruto simply overpowered The realms. Naruto hasnt show any speed feats or consistency of speed to put him over Kakahashi who has been well established. Its utter fanboy BS. Naruto hasnt shown any Dominance in speed putside of Kyuubi. And Thats a continued fact


----------



## Shizune (Apr 11, 2010)

DarkRasengan said:


> And Amaterasu has been said to be as hot as then sun. Go by visible feats, not by hype.




In the databook, Kishimoto specifically states that it was Tsunade who pioneered the mastery of medical ninjutsu. Before her learning and furthering the field, healing techniques were extremely rudimentary; there was no medical core.

I know the databook must be taken very lightly, but I can't help but think we would need to take him at his word if he states a character's accomplishments.


----------



## Csdabest (Apr 11, 2010)

Outer Path said:


> The surface of the sun is about 5500 ?C, and the core is around 3000 times hotter than that
> 
> If Ameratsu were as hot as the sun every character in the entire Narutoverse would've been melted by the extreme heat upon its release.



Unless the Heat was concentrated on the actual target. Focus heat like a blow torch or something, The consistency holds up when the user actually focuses on a targets rather than let it sit. That it burns stronger when the user concentrates


----------



## David (Apr 11, 2010)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto NEVER speed blitz deva which was the closest thing to compare. Naruto simply overpowered The realms. Naruto hasnt show any speed feats or consistency of speed to put him over Kakahashi who has been well established. Its utter fanboy BS. Naruto hasnt shown any Dominance in speed putside of Kyuubi. And Thats a continued fact



I cringed.

Though it was by surprise, SM Naruto outsped Asura Realm, who was using rocket propulsion boots to propell himself towards Tsunade.

Note that a severely injured Asura Realm _without_ rocket propulsion boots was fast enough to intercept Kakashi's Raikiri mid-strike.



Csdabest said:


> *Unless* the Heat was concentrated on the actual target. Focus heat like a blow torch or something, The consistency holds up when the user actually focuses on a targets rather than let it sit. That it burns stronger when the user concentrates



I can't tell... are you trying to state that the heat of Ameratsu is anywhere near as hot as that of the sun?  Because if that's what you're implying, I don't see any point continuing this convo with you.


----------



## Csdabest (Apr 11, 2010)

Outer Path said:


> I cringed.
> 
> Though it was by surprise, SM Naruto outsped Asura Realm, who was using rocket propulsion boots to propell himself towards Tsunade.
> 
> ...



1.Naruto was shown to be in movement and alerted to what Asura was doing before he launched. Most likely due to his chakra sensing abilities. And judging by the panel where he was last seen. He couldhave more than made it in time.  In the amount of time allowed. He blindsided Asura realm. Asura realm was easily the fastest body. There. Yet Naruto Magical speed was never to be seen again. Dramatic entrance and being blindsided. Same thing that just happened with Sasuke sakura kakashi and Naruto.

2. Once again dramatic entrance. And Deva was in a bind. The body had more than enough time to come to his aide.

Theories on justifying the databook statement. Which I have quite clearly proven with consistencies and evidence in other threads. Ill just throw out there were amaterasu was instantanous. Frog Stomach, Sasuke lower half, Danzo. All situations where the user mastered amaterasu and focused on the target. Its is quite possible for amaterasu to burn at the sun temp when its focused on the target. Without broadcasting outer eat outside of the target. Its fiction. So if you want to try to placxe reality restriction on a fictional story. Then by all means. Be my guess. I really wont see a point in continuing this convo with you.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 11, 2010)

On the contrary, the heat needed to melt the toad stomach and glass in an instant would have to be above 2,000 degrees Celsius. You should remember that Amaterasu is now being used by someone who's had the technique for a less than a month.


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## Yagami_ (Apr 12, 2010)

Outer Path said:


> The surface of the sun is about 5500 ?C, and the core is around 3000 times hotter than that
> 
> If Ameratsu were as hot as the sun every character in the entire Narutoverse would've been melted by the extreme heat upon its release.



Yeah.  Except for the small facts that:

A) These are superhumans who can endure things that would kill us 10x over
B) Regular people have survived direct lightning strikes, which are hotter than the surface of the sun.  And many that do die don't have their whole body incinerated which is what you're basically claiming


----------



## Thunder (Apr 12, 2010)

Good point. Lightning strikes are about 5 times hotter then the surface of the sun, IIRC. The big difference, though, is lightning strikes are 1/1000 of a second, almost instantaneous. Amateratsu is just sitting there, so it will cause more damage.


----------



## Yagami_ (Apr 12, 2010)

True.  However lightning bolts are a far greater scale and magnitude than most uses of Amaterasu we've seen.

My point stands though, a release of heat as hot as the sun wouldn't incinerate everything in its way like Outer Path is claiming, especially when you factor in that these are superhumans


----------



## Deshwitat (Apr 12, 2010)

While Amaterasu certainly is very hot (given how it ) it's not even close to as hot as the sun. , which they would have it they had physical contact with the sun.


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## beij (Apr 12, 2010)

Deshwitat said:


> While Amaterasu certainly is very hot (given how it ) it's not even close to as hot as the sun. , which they would have it they had physical contact with the sun.



this is just inconsitency on Kishi's part

Amarterasu is suppsed to be the hottest fire in Narutoverse (therefor only vivaled in heat by lightening), and it burned through other fire; it is hot enough to instantly incinerate anything, although somtimes doesent due to plot based inconsistencies by Kishi


----------



## Rampage (Apr 12, 2010)

Deshwitat said:


> While Amaterasu certainly is very hot (given how it ) it's not even close to as hot as the sun. , which they would have it they had physical contact with the sun.



Nope, it was stated that for Ama to be effective the user has to be looking at the target, hence why it effected Sasuke as itachi was constantly looking at him. The trees weren't burned as Itachi was not focusing on them. Even a katon would burn a tree, so its logical to assume that what was stated is true. This is also the reason why the Samurai wasn't instantly killed as Sasuke's target was Raikage, who he was staring at. I think thats why anyway, might be wrong.


----------



## Jodyjoe the great (Apr 12, 2010)

Have ppL ever thought maybe the sun in naruto is not that hot in the first place?

Its only a fucking kidz manga


----------



## Rampage (Apr 12, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> Have ppL ever thought maybe the sun in naruto is not that hot in the first place?
> 
> It only a fucking kidz manga



Okay.......


----------



## AkatsukiBoy12 (Apr 12, 2010)

1. Sage of the Six paths
2. Hashirama Senju 
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Tobirama Senju
5. Minato Namikaze
6. Naruto Uzumaki
7. Pain/Nagato
8. Itachi Uchiha
9. Jirayia
10. Hiruzen Sarutobi
11. Raikage
12. Sasuke Uchiha
13. Killer Bee
14. The 5 Kages
15. Danzou
16. Kisame Hoshigaki
17. Orochimaru
18. Kakashi
19. Gaara
20. Tsunade

the reason i put naruto 6th is because hes the main character, every main character beats every main villain....


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 12, 2010)

Why do you have the 5 Kages on that list while the Raikage and Gaara are on there too?


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 12, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> Have ppL ever thought maybe the sun in naruto is not that hot in the first place?
> 
> Its only a fucking kidz manga



I actually approve of this post.


----------



## Jir667 (Apr 12, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> Have ppL ever thought maybe the sun in naruto is not that hot in the first place?
> 
> Its only a fucking kidz manga



I can only hope this is a joke?

If your going to use that lodic, then that basically means that since it's a kids manga.
fire isnt as hot, ice isnt as cold, water isnt as wet. light isnt fast.

You have no basis for that arguement. If thats how things work then what are we all in here argueing for?

bullets in op must not hurt as bad since its a kids manga. 

kunei must not be super sharp cause it's a kids manga.

With that reasoning all of our arguements have been meaningless cause everything would be explained with that statement.

But now we come back to logic. Since it was never stated to be colder then the sun we can assume it's a normal sun just like ours, it's hot the suns surface is only 9900 ?F, while its core is 27 million ?F, but a lighter flame is 
2552 ?F so the surface of the sun is only 3.8 times hotter, we have no idea what part of the sun kishimoto is talking about. so it could be surface or it could be center who knows? Im assuming surface.


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## Thunder (Apr 12, 2010)

AkatsukiBoy12 said:


> 1. Sage of the Six paths
> 2. Hashirama Senju
> 3. Madara Uchiha
> 4. Tobirama Senju
> ...



Good list, but why did you put Oro is low?


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 13, 2010)

AkatsukiBoy12 said:


> 1. Sage of the Six paths
> 2. Hashirama Senju
> 3. Madara Uchiha
> 4. Tobirama Senju
> ...



I agree, and how is Hiruzen above Danzou, Orochimaru and Bee? And Tobirama above so many ninja obviously far stronger than him (Nagato, SM Naruto, Hiruzen, Danzou, Oro, Jiraiya, Itachi, Bee, Raikage, etc...)? Orochimaru is really too low there, and below all 5 Kages? How the hell would Mei or Onoki beat him?


----------



## Proxy (Apr 13, 2010)

And why is Pain/Nagato so low and Naruto so high?


----------



## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 13, 2010)

1.Sage of the Six paths
2.Hashirama Senju 
3.Kabuto Yakushi
4.Madara Uchiha
5.Itachi Uchiha
6.Killer Bee
7.Minato Namikaze
8.Sasuke Uchiha
9.Nagato/Pain
10.Orochimaru/Jiraiya
12.Naruto Uzumaki
13.Hiruzen Sarutobi
14.Tobirama Senju
15.Raikage
16.Kisame/Sasori
18.Hanzou
19.Sakumo
20.3rd Kazekage
-------------------------------------------------------
Danzou
Kakuzu
Kakashi
Guy
Izuna
Deidara
Tsunade
Gaara
Ōnoki
Mei Terumī
Shisui Uchiha
Chiyo


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## MyEyes (Apr 13, 2010)

1.Sage Of The Six Paths
2.Pain/Prime Nagato
3.Hashirama Senju 
4.Madara Uchiha 
5.Sasuke Uchiha ( With EMS )
6.Itachi Uchiha
7.Naruto Uzumaki
8.Minato Namikaze
9.Jirayia
10.Raikage
11.Kisame
12.Killer Bee
13.Danzo
14.Orochimaru 
15.Hiruzen Sarutobi
16.Kakuzu
17.6 Gates Gai
18.Deidara
19.Sasori
20.Kakashi


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 13, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> Have ppL ever thought maybe the sun in naruto is not that hot in the first place?
> 
> Its only a fucking kidz manga



The little entry where it says Amaterasu is as hot as the sun is a *hyperbole.* It is an exaggeration. It's just like saying Itachi's Suiton is light speed. No wait, I suppose light is pretty slow in the Narutoverse since it's a kids Manga, right?


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## Phoenix Zoro (Apr 13, 2010)

1. Rikudo
2. Shodai
3. Madara
4. Prime Hiruzen
5. Nagato/Pain
6. Minato
7. Itachi
8. Kabuto
9. Killerbee
10. Danzo
11. Jiraiya
12. Sasuke
13. Naruto
14. Orochimaru
15. Onoki
16. Raikage
17. Tobirama
18. Hanzo
19. Sasori
20. Kakuzu


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 13, 2010)

people need to learn the definition of a hyperbole. haku moves at speed of light...


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## Space Jam (Apr 13, 2010)

I cant believe people put Hiruzen so low on there list when he was obvioulsy stronger than pretty much everyone except Rikudō Sennin and Minato


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## Malkavian (Apr 13, 2010)

1-Rikudo
2-Hashirama
2-Nagato
4-Madara 
4-Hiruzen
4-Jiraiya
4-Minato
8-Hanzo
9-Killer Bee
9-Sakumo
9-Tobirama
9-Itachi
9-Izuna
14-Orochimaru
14-Kisame
14-Kakuzu
14-Mei
14-Danzo
14-A
20-Kabuto


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## Judecious (Apr 14, 2010)

1.Rikudo sennin
2.younger son
3.older son
4.shodai
5.minato
6.nagato
6.madara
8.sasuke(EMS)
9.naruto(SM)
10.tobirama
11.izuna
12.Jiraiya(HM)
13.hiruzun
14..Itachi(MS)
15.orochimaru
16.tsunade
17.raikage
18.kisame
19.killer bee
20.kakashi
14.


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## Angoobo (Apr 14, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> 1.Rikudo sennin
> 2.younger son
> 3.older son
> 4.shodai
> ...



Your post holds so much truth...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 14, 2010)

0. Rikudou Sennin
1. Nagato (strongest in the manga. Stop doubting it)
2. Hashirama
3. Madara
4. Minato
5. Jiraiya
6. Itachi/Danzo
7. Killer Bee/A the Raikage
8. Naruto
9. Sasuke/Kisame
10. Orochimaru/Gaara
11. Tsunade/Konan
12. Terumi Mei
13. Sasori/Deidara
15. Kakuzu
16. Onoki
17. Kakashi
18. Hiruzen (Old)
19. Kage Body Guards
20. Hidan
Sorry, you aren't getting more accurate than that.


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## MyEyes (Apr 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 -snip-
where is Raikage ? Tsunade is stronger than Raikage? Deidara ? Hiruzen ? oh..
my post is the mostREALISTIC 

1.Sage Of The Six Paths
2.Pain/Prime Nagato
3.Hashirama Senju 
4.Madara Uchiha 
5.Sasuke Uchiha ( With EMS )
6.Itachi Uchiha
7.Naruto Uzumaki
8.Minato Namikaze
9.Jirayia
10.Raikage
11.Kisame
12.Killer Bee
13.Danzo
14.Orochimaru 
15.Hiruzen Sarutobi
16.Kakuzu
17.6 Gates Gai
18.Deidara
19.Sasori
20.Kakashi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 14, 2010)

My eyes, why is Jiraiya ranked lower than Itachi? Itachi canonically said _they are equal_ and not only that, Jiraiya's Sage Mode puts him over Itachi. And how the hell can you put Itachi above Minato of all people? He's not that great of a genius, he didn't invent any techniques, nor does he have the stamina to put himself above Minato and Jiraiya.


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## Namikaze Minato (Apr 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> My eyes, why is Jiraiya ranked lower than Itachi? Itachi canonically said _they are equal_ and not only that, Jiraiya's Sage Mode puts him over Itachi. And how the hell can you put Itachi above Minato of all people? He's not that great of a genius, he didn't invent any techniques, nor does he have the stamina to put himself above Minato and Jiraiya.



lol i was surprised too Minato Fought madara + fox  , while itachi wimped out when he  saw madara , now that should tell those uchiha fans something.


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## Soul (Apr 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 0. Rikudou Sennin
> 1. Nagato (strongest in the manga. Stop doubting it)
> 2. Hashirama
> 3. Madara
> ...



Sakura? 

Tsunade, Mei and Konan>Sasori, really?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 14, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> Sakura?
> 
> Tsunade, Mei and Konan>Sasori, really?


Yes.

Tsunade-a Sannin, medical genius, etc. who could counter Sasori's poisons
Mei: Two bloodlines, both of which are deadly to Sasori
Konan: One bloodline, turn to paper, and taught by Jiraiya himself.


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## Thunder (Apr 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 0. Rikudou Sennin
> 1. Nagato (strongest in the manga. Stop doubting it)
> 2. Hashirama
> 3. Madara
> ...



I agree with 1-6, but that's about it. A few problems, Sasuke and Kisame on the same level?, Oro and Gaara? Tsuande and Konan above Sasori and Deidara? The kicker was Sakura at the end. She can easily be replaced with Tobirama, Hidan or even Zetsu. She shouldn't be on at top 20 list.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 14, 2010)

Yeah, Sakura quite frankly isn't even low jonin level. Sasori and Deidara are quite a bit stronger than really any Kage save maybe A. Countering poisons is all well and good, but when Sasori can just blast you into fleshy confetti with iron sand regardless? Mei, if her speed is good enough, could very well beat Sasori with boil release, though


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## MyEyes (Apr 14, 2010)

lol so itachi = base jirayia? 
rofl... tsunade > base jirayia.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 14, 2010)

MyEyes said:


> lol so itachi = base jirayia?
> rofl... tsunade > base jirayia.


Itachi said the best he could do against Jiraiya is a _stalemate_. Canon fact. And Tsunade is not stronger than Base Jiraiya, where the fuck did you get that?


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Tsunade-a Sannin, medical genius, etc. who could counter Sasori's poisons
> Mei: Two bloodlines, both of which are deadly to Sasori
> Konan: One bloodline, turn to paper, and taught by Jiraiya himself.



Being a Medical Genius and being able to make antidotes to Sasori's poison means little in actual combat against the guy. It's impossible to make an antidote during an actual battle against the guy, who wrong move and your pretty much screwed.

Mei, I'll admit her abilities are extremely dangerous. But as of now, she doesn't have many speed/reaction feats. Using the ones she does have, she'd get beaten by most of the people on the top 20 list before she makes the seals used for Yoton/Futton.

Konan doesn't have a bloodline, being taught by Jiraiya does not qualify for being in the top 20 and anyone with a Suiton, Katon or Oil attack could beat her. Fuuton would also work well.


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## Space Jam (Apr 14, 2010)

Definitive List

0. Rikudō Sennin
1. Minato Namikaze
2. Hiruzen Sarutobi 
3. Hashirama Senju
4. Madara Uchiha
5. Nagato
6. Itachi Uchiha
7. Ōnoki
8. A
9. Sasuke
10. Naruto 
11. Mei Terumī
12. Killer Bee
13. Kisame Hoshigaki
14. Tobirama Senju
13. Hanzō
14. Sakumo Hatake
15. Orochimaru
16. Jiraya
17. Kakashi Hatake
18. Tsunade
19. Deidara
20. Kakuzu

if were assuming that they are all at their "prime". I dont know where to put people like Izuna and Rikudō Sennin`s sons or jinchūriki cause we never saw or heard of them do anything to judge them by. The only people on the list i was 100% were Tobirama, Mei, and Deidara


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 14, 2010)

...why is Nagato below Minato, Hiruzen, Hashirama, and Madara? Did you miss Nagato destroying Konoha? And AGAIN< why the fuck is Itachi higher than Jiraiya despite what Itachi said? 

Why do people here have so low respect for Jiraiya?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 14, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Being a Medical Genius and being able to make antidotes to Sasori's poison means little in actual combat against the guy. It's impossible to make an antidote during an actual battle against the guy, who wrong move and your pretty much screwed.
> 
> Mei, I'll admit her abilities are extremely dangerous. But as of now, she doesn't have many speed/reaction feats. Using the ones she does have, she'd get beaten by most of the people on the top 20 list before she makes the seals used for Yoton/Futton.
> 
> Konan doesn't have a bloodline, being taught by Jiraiya does not qualify for being in the top 20 and anyone with a Suiton, Katon or Oil attack could beat her. Fuuton would also work well.



I must just kind of say one thing about this bugs me...Konan just blocks katons with more paper or avoids them and she flies in rain and uses it to wash off oil, she's waterproof. The only weakness she has directly is oil and who walks around with them? Only Jiraiya


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## Sadgoob (Apr 14, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why do people here have so low respect for Jiraiya?



You think Base Jiraiya can beat an unrestricted Itachi. The issue is yours.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 15, 2010)

So when you say 'unrestricted,' it means you make a new character who isn't Itachi at all. Ignoring his terrible stamina, maybe triple his physical strength and increase his overrated speed. Yep. Fair.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 15, 2010)

Unrestricted as in using Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o. Lets completely ignore that the Itachi we saw fight was nowhere near the character's actual strength or skill level. But continue to say what you need to in order to make your fandom seem appropriate in comparison.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 15, 2010)

Oh, so your version of an unrestricted Itachi is the type who ignores silly things like chakra limitations and all. 

Never mind the only time we ever saw Jiraiya in a straight up full out fight unrestricted fight was against Pain, who is basically impossible for any previously seen character to beat-including your precious, ponytailed deity.

And yes, yes, nowhere near the character's strength or skill level when he's accurately reflected all his stats.


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## joernyA the white flasch (Apr 15, 2010)

hey ho
first of all
jiraya and itachi are one of my fav character but sry jiraya fans itachi is just better. He is even better than naruto and sasuke. Everything sasuke can do itachi can do either or even better. Except for Amaterasu, but his tsukuyami(is it written right) is assfucking good. Like Danzou said sasukes genjutsus are nothing comered to itachis. He even said Sasuke were his inly weakness. Ofcoure this is an exaggeration but it shows how high he thinks of itachi. And Danzou has seen nearly every great ninja who lived. 

So here is my list

1. Six Paths.
2. Pain( without 9tailed naruto would have been dead against him)
3. Minato Minato Namikaze(they said he was the best in Konoha and i still think his teleportation jutsu is the best there is.)
4. Hashirama Senju
5. Uchiha Madara
6. Hanzou( he fought the 3 sannins come on)
7. Itachi Uchiha (best genjutsu user EVER)
8. Uchiha Sasuke 
9. Sarutobi Hiruzen
10.  Naruto Uzumaki ( at the end he will probably be no. 2)
11.Raikage
12. Killer Bee( the battle against Kisame made him seem weaker, but Kisame was born to cath junchuriky^^ and Bee is the only one who can controll a bijuu so that is still HUGE)
13.Jiraya ( coolest death/ he was just awesome)
14. 2en Hokage
15.  Danzou
16. the 3 other Kage/Mizukage,Tsuchikage and Gaara of the red sand( we haven't seen enough to rank them higher or seperate them so here they are) 
17. Kisame
18.Kakshi(playboy no.1)
19. Sasori
20. Orochimaru


what hurts myself is that i had to put bee and raikage that low but are they really stronger than naruto and sasuke?


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## beij (Apr 15, 2010)

Gaara not being in the top 10 of these list's (in some cases not even on it) sickens me


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## shubho (Apr 15, 2010)

I'd actually say that Madara, Minato, and Shodaime are all in the same boat because Minato was known to be the greatest Hokage of all time, but at the same time he was considered weaker than Madara, or at least he said so himself.  Shodaime beat Madara, so it's kinda like a triangle really in my opinion.


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## Smiley (Apr 15, 2010)

joernyA the white flasch said:


> hey ho
> first of all
> jiraya and itachi are one of my fav character but sry jiraya fans itachi is just better. He is even better than naruto and sasuke. Everything sasuke can do itachi can do either or even better. Except for Amaterasu, but his tsukuyami(is it written right) is assfucking good. Like Danzou said sasukes genjutsus are nothing comered to itachis. He even said Sasuke were his inly weakness. Ofcoure this is an exaggeration but it shows how high he thinks of itachi. And Danzou has seen nearly every great ninja who lived.
> 
> ...



How is hanzou even top 10. So he beat the 3 sannin all at once, but they were young. I doubt that any of them at that time developed their deadly jutsu's we see them use now. For an example SM Jiraiya and Orochimaru's immortal jutsu.

Itachi/Sasuke/Kirabi stronger than Jiraiya or Naruto ? LMAO. itachi even stated himself that the best he could do against jiraiya is a stalemate, and thats him unaware Jiraiya's SM abilities. He also ran away from Jiraiya even with kisame, Itachi generally fought that jiraiya could beat both kisame and himself.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 15, 2010)

Again. Its not just being a Jiraiya fan-Itachi HIMSELF said he could only force a stalemate against Jiraiya. And that's just with Jiraiya in Base Mode, with Itachi having no knowledge of Sage Mode.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Apr 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again. Its not just being a Jiraiya fan-Itachi HIMSELF said he could only force a stalemate against Jiraiya. And that's just with Jiraiya in Base Mode, with Itachi having no knowledge of Sage Mode.



FALSE.

He said him kisame and more men from akatsuki would stamemate jiraya which was a lie to throw kisame off.

IF you think jiraya can solo half of akatsuki then obvisously your on somthing since jiraya cant handle animal realm without sagemode.

Itachi doesnt need knowledge of sagemode it takEs jiraya a episode to use it he wouldnt live that long.


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## Judecious (Apr 15, 2010)

wow jiraiya is so underrated here is ridiculous 
HM jiraiya=MS itachi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 15, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> wow jiraiya is so underrated here is ridiculous
> HM jiraiya=MS itachi


Its not even that. HM Jiraiya's stamina is basically unlimited, and Itachi, using MS has just _three_ shots. So HM Jiraiya>MS Itachi and Base Jiraiya=Base/Sharingan Itachi.


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## Violent by Design (Apr 15, 2010)

Unlimited stamina doesn't mean you can't die. Itachi would obviously kill Jiraya before Itachi ran out of stamina.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 15, 2010)

Big 'if' there for Itachi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 15, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Unlimited stamina doesn't mean you can't die. Itachi would obviously kill Jiraya before Itachi ran out of stamina.


No, he really couldn't. Itachi's high powered moves he can't spam, Jiraiya can avoid them, etc.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2010)

From What We have Seen so Far i will go with this list

0-Rikudo

1-Shodai Hokage

2-Uchiha Madara(Prime)

3-Namikaze Minato

4-Kabuto(With Tensi)

5-Nagato

6-Killer Bee

7-Danzo

8-9-Uchiha Sasuke/Uzamaki Naruto

10-15-Uchiha Itachi - Jiraiya - Sasori - Kisame - Orochimaru(with Tensi) -Nindaime(With Tensi)

16-18 -Garaa - Raikage - Dedaria

19- Mei

20- Kakashi


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## Judecious (Apr 15, 2010)

Turrin said:


> From What We have Seen so Far i will go with this list
> 
> 0-Rikudo
> 
> ...



i agree but killer bee is way to high, i mean you put him above itachi and jiraiya then you dont even have tsunade who has shown more feats than mei. also sasuke and naruto are far above danzo


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## Goobtachi (Apr 15, 2010)

^^Do u believe Itachi and all the guys in his tier<Danzou??
Or Sasuke/Naruto<Kirabi or Itachi and the guys in his tier<Kirabi???


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## Angoobo (Apr 15, 2010)

@Turrin:
1.Where is Tsunade( you mentioned Gaara and Kakashi, while you forgot about her...)
2.Minato is at least on Madara's level.
3.I think you underestimate Tobirama's strenght, he(s definitely above Jiraiya's tier.
4.Deidara has nothing to do on that list IMO.


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## Judecious (Apr 15, 2010)

godtachi said:


> ^^Do u believe Itachi and all the guys in his tier<Danzou??
> Or Sasuke/Naruto<Kirabi or Itachi and the guys in his tier<Kirabi???



i just dont believe killer bee or danzo are stronger than MS itachi or HM jiraiya

he also put kisame below bee, while we all know who will win that fight


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## Jinnobi (Apr 15, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, he really couldn't. Itachi's high powered moves he can't spam, Jiraiya can avoid them, etc.



Of course he can magically avoid all Itachi's MS attacks. No problem.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2010)

> i agree but killer bee is way to high, i mean you put him above itachi and jiraiya then you dont even have tsunade who has shown more feats than mei. also sasuke and naruto are far above danzo



I think Killer Bee is above everyone else bellow him. In my opinion Killer Bee is the closest in strength to Nagato so far in the manga(Who we have actually seen fight). He is the perfect Jinchuriki and has the second strongest Bijuu. He is immune to Genjtusu and his Speed, Strength, Taijutsu, Durability, Stamina, etc... is highest or close to the highest we have seen in the manga. Almost no one in the manga has a chance at defeating Killer Bee.

Tsunade is bellow Mei in my opinion because Mei's Acidic Mist is incredibly Hax'd and would defeat most characters in the naruto world simply because there is no visual difference between it and a smoke screen and its potency is so high it even melts Susano'o. 

Sasuke and Naruto are not far above Danzo. Naruto has no knowledge that Danzo has a Sharigan eye with Shishui's powers; he would get one shotted. Sasuke only won his fight with Danzo because Danzo was conserving his strength to fight Madara or escape from Madara after defeating Sasuke. In short Danzo underestimated Sasuke and held back too much, but he was undoubtably more powerful than Sasuke and in the end he would have won with his final Fuuinjutsu if Madara didn't warn Sasuke.

Lets also not forget that Madara suggest Danzo also had the power to control the Kyuubi with Shodai's genes and his collection of Sharigan. He was indeed more powerful then people give him credit for. 



> @Turrin:
> 1.Where is Tsunade( you mentioned Gaara and Kakashi, while you forgot about her...)
> 2.Minato is at least on Madara's level.
> 3.I think you underestimate Tobirama's strenght, he(s definitely above Jiraiya's tier.
> 4.Deidara has nothing to do on that list IMO.



1-Tsunade is just bellow Kakashi. I actually wasn't sure if i should put Kakashi or Tsunade as the final person to rank on the list

2-I am talking about Prime Madara and no i don't think Minato is equal to Prime Madara and just so there is no confusion, i count kyuubi as prime Madara's power as well

3-I don't see any reason for Tobirama to be above Jiraiya's tier. He was rather underwhelming as a tensi and the only technique of note from his is Edo Tensi, which we don't even know if he could use it as well as Orochimaru. Realistically i think placing him on Jiraiya's tier is fair enough

4-Why does Dedaria have nothing to do with this list? Dedaria is incredibly strong and very hard to deal with for most Ninja because of him being a long range specialist. C4 and C3 are incredibly powerful and C0 can ensure at least a tie against many Ninja in the manga. 

Dedaria is vastly underrated on this forum because of the fact that he was pitted against his worst match up possible in the form of Hebi Sasuke who only survived C0 through plot no jutsu. I considered putting Dedaria even higher actually.



> he also put kisame below bee, while we all know who will win that fight


I really doubt Kisame would win that fight as Full Hachibi mode would destroy Kisame in my opinion. But if Kisame did win that fight its only because Kisame is thee best match up for Killer Bee in the entire manga by far.


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## Judecious (Apr 15, 2010)

Turrin said:


> I think Killer Bee is above everyone else bellow him. In my opinion Killer Bee is the closest in strength to Nagato so far in the manga(Who we have actually seen fight). He is the perfect Jinchuriki and has the second strongest Bijuu. He is immune to Genjtusu and his Speed, Strength, Taijutsu, Durability, Stamina, etc... is highest or close to the highest we have seen in the manga. Almost no one in the manga has a chance at defeating Killer Bee.



what SM naruto has just has much speed, more strength and stamina and durability and he also has better taijutsu with frog katas. also bee hasnt shown much that could handle a full power MS sasuke who has Amaterasu or Susanoo



Turrin said:


> Tsunade is bellow Mei in my opinion because Mei's Acidic Mist is incredibly Hax'd and would defeat most characters in the naruto world simply because there is no visual difference between it and a smoke screen and its potency is so high it even melts Susano'o.



tsunade has strength, Sōzō Saisei(creation rebirth), taijutsu, medical ninjutsu and Katsuyu on her side which is why i dont see how mei could beat her



Turrin said:


> Sasuke and Naruto are not far above Danzo. Naruto has no knowledge that Danzo has a Sharigan eye with Shishui's powers; he would get one shotted. Sasuke only won his fight with Danzo because Danzo was conserving his strength to fight Madara or escape from Madara after defeating Sasuke. In short Danzo underestimated Sasuke and held back too much, but he was undoubtably more powerful than Sasuke and in the end he would have won with his final Fuuinjutsu if Madara didn't warn Sasuke.



danzo has nothing that can counter SM. naruto beats him in tai,str,spe,sta and with FRS theres no way danzo can come back using izangi and danzo stop saving his chakra for madara and went all out vs sasuke and lost


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2010)

> what SM naruto has just has much speed, more strength and stamina and durability and he also has better taijutsu with frog katas.



Speed - We have never seen SM Naruto shunshin the Distance between mountains and that was Base Bee

Strength - This may be close, but i really doubt that Naruto has as much strength as Version 2 Bee; even if this is by a small margin. 

Stamina - Bee has his own high stamina and the stamina of the second strongest Bijuu under his control he has more Stamina then even SM Naruto

Durability - There is no way even SM Naruto has durability equal to Version 2 bee with Chakra Cloak

Taijutsu - Bee is clearly more skilled with his 7 Sword Stance even if Naruto's Taijutsu is a bit more hax with invisible attacks. 



> also bee hasnt shown much that could handle a full power MS sasuke who has Amaterasu or Susanoo


Yes he has. He has Kawarimi for Amaterasu as well as Chakra shield(And potentially dodging it like Raikage). And for Susano'o he can use Shunshin to dodge or Chakra Shield to block



> tsunade has strength, Sōzō Saisei(creation rebirth), taijutsu, medical ninjutsu and Katsuyu on her side which is why i dont see how mei could beat her


Mei uses Yutton and Tsunade breaths it in thinking its a normal smoke screen and her lungs melt and the rest of her body. I don't think even Gensis would save her. But it not just about if Tsunade can beat Mei its how well both would perform against the vast populace of the naruto world and to me thats Mei because of how hax Yotton is.



> danzo has nothing that can counter SM.


Shisui's Genjutsu would win it for him easily as Naruto has no knowledge even has the Sharigan



> naruto beats him in tai,str,spe,sta and with FRS theres no way danzo can come back using izangi


Izanagi saves danzo from everything even FRS. And even though Naruto has a number of Advantages being invincible for 10-11 minutes is more then enough to give Danzo the advantage. 



> danzo stop saving his chakra for madara and went all out vs sasuke and lost


Nah Dazno saved Shushui's Genjutsu or a final Izanagi for Madara instead of using it against Sasuke. He was holding back and he was gimped during that battle as Shishui's eye was recharging.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 15, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Oh, so your version of an unrestricted Itachi is the type who ignores silly things like chakra limitations and all.



So you're either incapable of reading or talking to yourself.


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## Thunder (Apr 15, 2010)

Turrin said:


> From What We have Seen so Far i will go with this list
> 
> 0-Rikudo
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with this list. I just feel Deidara should be a tad higher.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 15, 2010)

Over Gaara at least


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> Over Gaara at least





> I pretty much agree with this list. I just feel Deidara should be a tad higher.


Yeah i think i should put Dedaria, Garaa, and Raikage all together; now that i think about it


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## Thunder (Apr 16, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Yeah i think i should put Dedaria, Garaa, and Raikage all together; now that i think about it



I think that would be a good choice.


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## ThunderTheo (Apr 16, 2010)

Does anyone else think Kisame is under rated by a lot?


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> Does anyone else think Kisame is under rated by a lot?


Yes i do. Kisame should be at least on par with the likes of Itachi and Jiraiya. Even though he seems to imply they are stronger then him in part 1; the way Kisame talks in japanese is very polite type of speech, so the gap may have been very small and he was just being polite about it. Also Kisame has had 3 years to get stronger since that statement was made.

Also both are horrible match ups for him if you think about. Genjutsu seems to be his weakness and a Senjutsu users would be really bad match up as well. 

To me Kisame is on Par with J-man and Itachi as he has one of the most hax abilities in the manga and Shark Dance Prison is incredibly lethal. Itachi may be able to defeat him, but thats only because Genjutsu seems to be his primary weakness, while Ninjutsu and Taijutsu are obviously very ineffective against him; with him being able to absorb most Ninjutsu instantly and with him regenerating from any Physical Damage done to him through Taijutsu.


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## Kurushimi (Apr 16, 2010)

0. Rikudō Sennin
0,5. Rikudou's Elder/Younger son
1. Hashirama Senju
2. Nagato/Pain
3. Madara Uchiha
4. Minato Namikaze
5. Izuna
6. Killer Bee
7. Sarutobi Hiruzen
8. Ōnoki
9. Sasuke
10. Kabuto
11. Naruto (soon might get higher... if he learns to control Kyuubi)
12. Hanzo
13. Jiraiya
14. Itachi
15. Tobirama
16. Orochimaru 
17. Sasori
18. Sakumo Hatake
19. Gaara
20. Sandaime Kazekage

Maybe I forgot to add someone, but pretty much, that is  ^^


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## Rubi (Apr 16, 2010)

*in no particular order

1. SOSP
2. Uchiha Madara
3. 1st Hokage
4. Nagato/Pein
5. Uchiha Itachi 
6. Namikaze Minato
7. Hatake Sakumo [though I'm not sure]
8. Senju Tobirama
9. Sarutobi Hiruzen
10. Hanzo
11. Danzō [hate him but gotta admit, he's pretty strong. Though I'm not that sure right now if he should be on the list]
12. Hatake Kakashi [?]
13. Sasori
14. Deidara [he could Destroy a whole village with only one move and can leave without getting a single scratch]
15. Hoshigaki Kisame 
16. Aloe Vera
17. Hidan
18. Kakuzu
19. Orochimaru
20. Jiraiya

the list got pretty fucked up after 10.... I wasn't sure. I just put in all of the akatsuki members except Konan. I forgot the name of aloe Vera dude...help?

Deidara's the youngest on my list, followed by Itachi. The reason I picked him was because of his massive assassination skills... Though he just blowed himself up...what a total waste*


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## Space Jam (Apr 16, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...why is Nagato below Minato, Hiruzen, Hashirama, and Madara? Did you miss Nagato destroying Konoha? And AGAIN< why the fuck is Itachi higher than Jiraiya despite what Itachi said?
> 
> Why do people here have so low respect for Jiraiya?



Cause look at what Itachi did after he said that. And Minato, and co are up there because i think they could have stopped Pain. Minato and Hiruzen are the strongest in the series and i think Hashirama and Madara could have stopped him with their Biju`s and skills if nothing else.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 16, 2010)

Amatsunohina said:


> *in no particular order
> 
> 1. SOSP
> 2. Uchiha Madara
> ...



where is sasuke?And where is Naruto?


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## Respite (Apr 16, 2010)

Amatsunohina said:


> *in no particular order
> 
> 1. SOSP
> 2. Uchiha Madara
> ...



This list is so messed up
and did you forget Naruto and Sasuke


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## Thunder (Apr 16, 2010)

Amatsunohina said:


> *in no particular order
> 
> 1. SOSP
> 2. Uchiha Madara
> ...



You forgot a few people like Naruto and Sasuke, Killer Bee, Raikage,Tsunade....and the "Aloe Vera" guy is Zetsu. He can be easily replaced with any of the characters I named, as he is mainly for support.


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## Jinnobi (Apr 16, 2010)

In very rough order:

Sage of the Six Paths
Sons of the Sage (combined into one character)
Madara
Itachi 
Pein 
Hanzo
Sasuke
Danzo
Naruto
Hashirama
Sarutobi
Minato
Sakumo Hatake 
Kisame
Sasori
Orochimaru
Killer Bee
Jiraiya
Kakashi
Raikage


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## Judecious (Apr 16, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> In very rough order:
> 
> Sage of the Six Paths
> Sons of the Sage (combined into one character)
> ...



why is shodaime lower than danzo and everyone above him, also  with minato being low to.

itachi above pain


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## Angoobo (Apr 16, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> In very rough order:
> 
> Sage of the Six Paths
> Sons of the Sage (combined into one character)
> ...


Itachi above Pain, Minato, Hashirama...


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> Sage of the Six Paths
> Sons of the Sage (combined into one character)
> Madara
> Itachi
> ...


Where do i start with this.  Oh i know...How is Itachi in god's green earth 6 places above Hashirama

Killer Bee is incredibly low. Sarutobi above the people he is above...what the hell? I mean if you going of strongest Hokage hype how is he bellow Hashirama then...makes no sense.

Hell how are any of the people you listed except for Rikudo-Sage and Maybe his two sons above Hashirama. How is Kakashi above Raikage and only one place bellow the J-man. How is Kisame, Sasori, or Orochimaru that far above the J-man.

I could go on. But i guess this list was just crafted in a way to some how magically justify Itachi being only one place bellow Madara and being the 4th strongest in the manga.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 16, 2010)

Barring hype characters:

1. Yakushi Kabuto
2. Uchiha Madara (Current)
3. Killer Bee
4. Uchiha Sasuke/Uzumaki Naruto
5. Rikudou Pain
6. Shimura Danzo
7. 4th Raikage
8. Uchiha Itachi
9. Jiraiya
10. Orochimaru
11. Hatake Kakashi
12. Kazekage Gaara
13. Akasuna no Sasori
14. Deidara
15. Hoshigaki Kisame (w/Samehada Fusion)
16. Kakuzu
17.  Terumi Mei / Senju Tsunade
18. 3rd Tsuchikage
19. Konan
20. Kaguya Kimimaro


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 16, 2010)

Why is Madara so high when he has no way of hurting his opponent? He can kick and punch, but he needs to become "solid" for that. And warping someone away into his dimension doesn't kill them, and against someone like Sasori(doesn't need water, air or food) or Kakuzu it's pretty much useless.


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## Violent by Design (Apr 16, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Barring hype characters:
> 
> 1. Yakushi Kabuto
> 2. Uchiha Madara (Current)
> ...



This list is rather strange. You say barring hype characters yet you have Mei, Onogi & Madara yet no Minato and Hiruzen who displayed just as many feats.

Not to mention it doesn't make sense that you would have Mei and Tsunade as well as Sasuke and Naruto sharing a spot. Why wouldn't you just take Kimmaro and Konan off your list?


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## Kinjishi (Apr 16, 2010)

Why is Kabuto ranked so high?


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## Angoobo (Apr 16, 2010)

^^Edo Tensei is so overrated people think it makes Kabuto the strongest( for all we know, Kabuto could only summon more Tensi than both Oro and Tobirama, yet noone woumd put Oro in the top)


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## Judecious (Apr 16, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Barring hype characters:
> 
> 1. Yakushi Kabuto
> 2. Uchiha Madara (Current)
> ...



what the hell is this, you say you go by hype yet no minato, sarutobi, shodaime. and  is bee and raikage doing over jiraiya and itachi and please pain below bee


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## Violent by Design (Apr 16, 2010)

Kinjishi said:


> Why is Kabuto ranked so high?



im not sure if he/she ranked it in order from strongest to weakest.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> In very rough order:
> 
> Sage of the Six Paths
> Sons of the Sage (combined into one character)
> ...


What exactly is this based on? Hype? or Feat? Or some odd combination? What exactly makes Sakumo in hype only 1 below minato and above the hachibi jinchuriki, jiraiya, orochimaru, raikage, etc? hashirama that far below madara? didnt he kill the guy in his prime+kyuubi? sasuke has surpassed itachi and wouldve lossed to danzou had it not been for several outside factors. Naruto was just stated to be sasukes equal (unless youre speculating he has mastered his EMS). Sarutobi superior to all those people based on what? itachi is also on par with jiraiya. itachi above pain? and 1 below madara? killer bee so low? jiraiya lower than orochimaru? ksiame admitting inferiorty to jiraiya and he is above him?

basically a completely nonsense list


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## Sadgoob (Apr 16, 2010)

1. Sakumo was said to be stronger than the Sannin.
2. Hashirama hasn't had 100 years to gather bijū & eyeballs.
3. Sasuke has yet to surpass Itachi.
4. Sasuke would not have 'assuredly' lost to Danzō.
5. Naruto said he would die to Sasuke. Sasuke said he would kill Naruto. Equals? 
6. Hiruzen is superior based off of him being the god of shinobi, son.
7. An extremely handicapped Itachi is superior to Jiraiya.
8. Itachi part I with preparation is arguably better than Nagato.
9. Kirābī is very non-serious, which weakens him considerably.
10. Jiraiya *is* lower than Orochimaru.
11. Kisame speaks in a very polite dialect, and he was speaking of reputation.

I hope this helped.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

Selim said:


> 1. Sakumo was said to be stronger than the Sannin.
> 2. Hashirama hasn't had 100 years to gather strength.
> 3. Sasuke has yet to surpass Itachi.
> 4. Sasuke would not have assuredly lost to Danzō for your bullshit reason.
> ...


1. A. scans.
    B. if its referring to sannin about 20 years ago thats hardly relavent.
2. madara stated that he was a shell of his former self.
3. All round false but lol.
4. it was said they would kill each other. sasuke is a pretty arrogant guy if you havent noticed. Naruto looking into their souls... Id go with his.
5. leave off the flamebait. thanks. actually karins aid, sharingan deactivated, madaras warning are 3 reasons.
6. so based on nothing? ok.
7. you mean full power itachi is equal to a full power jiraiya in itachis mind.
8. not even a little bit. pretty baseless.
9. he gets serious pretty quick actually.
10. not from what the manga has shown.
11. he still admitted he was inferior.

not really as the logic is flawed tremendously.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 16, 2010)

1. I'm not obligated to find those for you, and I don't necessarily disagree.
2. He has hundreds of Sharingan and seven bijū. He might be lying.
3. Whatever you want to believe, amigo. It's not confirmed just yet.
4. It's still far from insured. Danzō had two elite Jonin allow him to prep IIRC. 
5. Naruto said he couldn't in the next chapter. I'm going with the consistent kid.
6. That would be hype, which is more than Rikodou's kids have IIRC.
7. Itachi is a modest kid. Whatcha' gonna' do? Minato thought something similar.
8. I disagree. Being able to stash Amaterasu's is pretty dangerous stuff.
9. No, no, I would disagree. He raps like a moron the entire fight.
10. The manga has shown Orochimaru to be the genius among them.
11. In terms of reputation. Without full knowledge it was merely postulation.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

Selim said:


> 1. I'm not obligated to find those for you, and I don't necessarily disagree.
> 2. He has hundreds of Sharingan and seven bijū. He might be lying.
> 3. Whatever you want to believe, amigo. It's not confirmed just yet.
> 4. It's still far from insured. Danzō had two elite Jonin allow him to prep IIRC.
> ...


1. your claim. until actually backing up an argument your claim isnt substantiated thus a guess and inaccurate.
2. idk how having sharingans and bjuu makes him a liar. nothing to imply that he is so he isnt until stated otherwise.
3. better amaterasu, better susano (hold it up a whole lot longer) and better base form... yeah id go with sasuke.
4. who fought madara not sasuke. thus irrelavent.
5. saying one will draw and saying he cant win dont contradict each other. so ill go with the non arrogant one.
6. one reason why i think they should be taken off the list as well.
7. ill take his words as he accuarately gauges opponents. minato did not. please use scans to back up this kind of stuff.
8. no idea what youre even trying to say about stashing amaterasus.
9. ok and hidan talks shit the whole fight. doesnt mean he isnt serious. just a sterotype kishimoto is wearing out.
10. and in no way does that make him superior.
11. he knew enough that he was going to lose.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> Stop being a raging Jiraiya fan lol.


What? I mostly talked about Hashirama. So at least call me a raging Hashirama fan lol



> 1. Sakumo was said to be stronger than the Sannin.
> 2. Hashirama hasn't had 100 years to gather bijū & eyeballs.
> 3. Sasuke has yet to surpass Itachi.
> 4. Sasuke would not have 'assuredly' lost to Danzō.
> ...



1-Sakumo was said to have greater fame then the Sannin; not that he was stronger

2-Madara also admitted he was weaker then in his prime; Hashirama beat Prime Madara

3-Your opinion entirely; Sasuke has mastered MS and now has EMS

4-Yes he would have; Sasuke needed Karin to Heal him after the Exchange of Raiton and Fuuton Blades. If Danzo used another Izanagi and Karin wasn't their that would been the end for Sasuke

5-Naruto peered into Sasuke heart and saw it would result in a Draw(Both of them dieing); this is as close as it gets to Kishimoto himself declaring they are equals

6-So if its based on hype why isn't Sarutobi > Hashirama as he is hyped as the Strongest of all Hokage?

7-Itachi himself disagrees and basically everything in the manga itself disagrees

8-There is no justification for this at all and what does Prep-time Itachi beating a None Prep Nagato even prove in terms of their strength except Itachi can only win with a cheap advantage

9-He was only none serious against Taka and justifiably so; since he completely destroyed them

10-Oro *is* lower then Jiraiya; Yes this brilliant argument can be used by both fandoms

11-Quoted for truth on this one; though this also applies to Itachi as well. And i don't agree that Kisame is stronger then J-man


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## Jinnobi (Apr 16, 2010)

I didn't make my list to debate with fanboys about how I'm wrong. I made my list to make my opinion known. If I actually though it would make a difference to defend my opinion, I would. But this fandom forums worships Pein and Killer Bee, so I'd rather just sit back and watch the squabble and moans as fanboys cry about how flawed my opinion is while simultaneously getting willingly buttpwnd by Pein's reanimated corpse


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I didn't make my list to debate with fanboys about how I'm wrong. I made my list to make my opinion known. If I actually though it would make a difference to defend my opinion, I would. But this fandom forums worships Pein and Killer Bee, so I'd rather just sit back and watch the squabble and moans as fanboys cry about how flawed my opinion is while simultaneously getting willingly buttpwnd by Pein's reanimated corpse



just making sure you acknowledge your own bias and cant back up your argument. and considering everything is opinion on this site...


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## Jinnobi (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm assuming you meant "can" because you typed "cant"


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

no i meant cant. thanks though. i have made that mistake before and it was nice of you to help me out like that


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## Jinnobi (Apr 16, 2010)

I can back up my opinion, but I'm not going to this time. I'm too busy to engage fandom in a fruitless and pointless war of words. No matter what I say, tomorrow morning they will wake up with the same opinion....


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

i can see where youre coming from in part.


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## Maerala (Apr 16, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> I can back up my opinion, but I'm not going to this time. I'm too busy to engage fandom in a fruitless and pointless war of words. *No matter what I say, tomorrow morning they will wake up with the same opinion*....



 I feel your pain.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 16, 2010)

1. Not my claim.
2. Tobi's a good boy.
3. Your opinion.
4. Still had preparation.
5. Your opinion.
6. Minato can't gauge a shinobi?
7. Your opinion.
8. Not my problem. 
9. It does.
10. Your opinion.
11. He didn't *know* anything.

Basically I'm saying: *your opinion is equal to his opinion.*


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

Selim said:


> 1. Not my claim.
> 4. Still had preparation.
> 6. Minato can't gauge a shinobi?
> 8. Not my problem.
> ...



1. not your claim?



Selim said:


> 1. Sakumo was said to be stronger than the Sannin.



yes... it was your claim. please remember what you actually type. i dont expect a response to this but lol surprise me.

4. and sasuke still had madara. your point?
6. did i say he couldnt? MINATO (in edit changed from madara to minato) never made a similar claim to itachis. that is fanfic on your part.
8. it obviously is if you are the one who made the point. making up things i.e. no argument. Next.
9. It doesnt. See what i did there?
11. obviously he did if he could draw a large enough conclusion that he was no match.

theres a difference between an opinion based on fact (mine) and an opinion based on nothing (i.e. you/other dude). mine merely has backing.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> I didn't make my list to debate with fanboys about how I'm wrong. I made my list to make my opinion known.


Fair enough, but i don't think you should call anyone a fanboy for voicing their opinion then that you are wrong. 



> Basically I'm saying: your opinion is equal to his opinion.


No i can support my opinion with a good argument(and i'm sure sanji could to). He may be able to do the same when it comes to some of the placements he made, but i fail to see any good argument being possible for why Hashirama is 6 places bellow Itachi. So no the opinions are not equal as there are just obvious fallacies with his list.


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## Keollyn (Apr 16, 2010)

Killer Bee below Tsunade? I saw that and immediately stopped flipping through the pages...


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## Sadgoob (Apr 16, 2010)

sanji's left eye said:


> 1. not your claim? Yes... it was your claim. please remember what you actually type. i dont expect a response to this but lol surprise me



It wasn't my list, I didn't include Sakumo in mine, I was providing hypothetical reasoning for another member's -snip-



Turrin said:


> I fail to see any good argument being possible for why Hashirama is 6 places bellow Itachi.



Considering we don't know anything about Hashirama, and his feats against Hiruzen were tainted beyond measure, I can see a reasonable inference of Hashirama not being on top of the modern ninja world. I personally disagree, but I can see where they're coming from.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> Considering we don't know anything about Hashirama, and his feats against Hiruzen were tainted beyond measure, I can see a reasonable inference of Hashirama not being on top of the modern ninja world. I personally disagree, but I can see where they're coming from.


Yes we do know stuff about Hashirama. Him having several Bijuu under his control, him defeating PRIME EMS Madara(The guy that he is rating above Itachi). 

And if he was just rating him on his performance against Sarutobi Old as a Tensi then why the hell is he so high. It really make no sense. There is no argument that can be made to justify that; you should at least admit that selim.


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## sanji's left eye (Apr 16, 2010)

Selim said:


> It wasn't my list, I didn't include Sakumo in mine, I was providing hypothetical reasoning for another member's list that you were bitching and moaning about as a courtesy to you. You're welcome.


no flamebaiting. reporting. it was you reasoning. you made the claim sakumo was stronger than the sannin. unless youre denying your own words. and in that case just admit you renigged on your initial statement. thanks again


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## Awesome (Apr 16, 2010)

Honestly? Its hard to determine accurate rankings for people in the manga. They all have certain abilities that make them stronger than other characters, and weaker than others. That aside, here's my list.

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Hashirama          - Its IMPOSSIBLE to put Prime Madara in front of Hashirama because he got "killed" by him at The Valley of The End. 
3. Prime Madara
4. Minato  
5. Jiraiya - Pein admitted he was stronger than him, but Jiraiya didn't have any knowledge of him. Pein on the other hand, new his abilities. 
6. Itachi - We all know he was dying when he was fighting Sasuke, and he was holding back during that fight. He wanted Sasuke to live. Honestly, it's hard to say if Jiraiya is stronger or weaker than him, because so much is unknown. I would put him below Jiraiya because his frog song will fuck shit up
7. Pein 
8. Current Sasuke - He's blind, but that aside from that he got no powerups as of yet from EMS. 
9. Danzou - Izanagi is fucking hax >_>
10. Killer Bee - The reason I place him in front of Naruto is because of his control over the 8 tails. Provided Naruto gets that power, he could be a whole lot stronger than Killer Bee
11. Naruto - Naruto could be a lot higher if he could control that damn fox. Provided he has prep time he could destroy with Sage Mode, but when thats up, all he has is some bunshin tricks and rasengan abilities. 
12.Mike Tyson Raikage 
13. Orochimaru - Edo Tensei and tons of jutsu's. We never saw Orochimaru at 100% in one battle. Against Sarutobi he was limited to that small barrier, and couldn't use boss summons. Against Jiraiya he was limited to 0 arms. Against Naruto we saw some more of what he could do. 
14. Kisame - He's probably stronger, but we have yet to see what he's fully capable of. 
15. Sarutobi
16. Kakashi
17. Deidara - In my opinion, he's pretty underrated. If you're on the ground be prepared to get attacked by airstrikes. 
18. Kabuto - Its hard to place him anywhere on this list. Too much is unknown. All he has is Edo Tensei, while very powerful, are all ninja's who have been killed. If he brings in Rikkudo everyone is FUCKED. 
19. Gaara 
20. Tsunade


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## Sadgoob (Apr 16, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Yes we do know stuff about Hashirama. Him having several Bijuu under his control, him defeating PRIME EMS Madara(The guy that he is rating above Itachi).



Yes, but match ups are a bitch for everybody.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2010)

> Yes, but match ups are a bitch for everybody.


Doesn't matter. The guy had multiple Bijuu under his control thats more then enough to put him higher on the list. That was ridiculous and you know it.


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## Soul (Apr 17, 2010)

Kinjishi said:


> Why is Kabuto ranked so high?



Edo Tensei is over rated as fuck.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 17, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Why is Madara so high when he has no way of hurting his opponent? He can kick and punch, but he needs to become "solid" for that. And warping someone away into his dimension doesn't kill them, and against someone like Sasori(doesn't need water, air or food) or Kakuzu it's pretty much useless.



But once they're warped into that dimension, they can't get out, can they? 

Itachi's Susano'o Totsuka Sword also doesn't technically kill people, too, it just seals them away - yet when he sealed Orochimaru away, it was considered to be Orochimaru's defeat.

And by the way, people, Sakumo Hatake was indeed said to be more reputed than the 3 Sannin, which may have been easily and simply referring to power. But at that time, Orochimaru had not perfected his Kinjutsu such as Edo Tensei, Oral Rebirth, Hydra Transformation, regeneration, poison resistance, etc...And Jiraiya has seemed to have almost never used Hermit Mode in combat, probably even never,  from what we have heard. 

Even Tsunade didn't have her Yin Seal, and with it, Genesis Rebirth. And all three Sannin lacked the wealth of experience they have now. By now, I would say all three are stronger than Sakumo.

And people who even think of justifying Sasuke being stronger than Naruto, think again. Naruto himself looked into Sasuke's heart, as Turrin or Sanji said, and said they were equals. Hell, their Rasengan-Chidori clash just as well proved that with neither side being the stronger. 

So what if Naruto said he could not beat Sasuke at his current level? This doesn't mean Sasuke is stronger. He was just referring to the fact that if they fought, they would both die and there would be no victor. So yes, Naruto could NOT defeat Sasuke.

I believe Sasuke has surpassed Itachi. He is better at Taijutsu (Kenjutsu), has much better Ninjutsu and an equal if not better Susano'o, and has much more Stamina as well. Also a more diverse fighter. Itachi's good, but he simply lacks the destructive power of Kirin. 

The only reason why Itachi could shield himself against Kirin was probably because he managed to form the Susano'o in front of him immediately with its shield out. However, if the Susano'o is already formed, don't expect it to move at light speed or something and block another Kirin. 

Prime Hiruzen was powerful, but being called the Shinobi no Kami alone will not place him above the current powerhouses in the least. He was extremely powerful, but only for his time and the younger generations always surpass the older ones. 

He was undoubtedly very powerful but remember that, when he was called the strongest Hokage by Iruka, Hashirama's Tailed Beast army was not an existing concept, and he was talking more about skill and individual ability, as the Tailed Beasts are powerful enough to make Ino stronger than Pain and contribute very little to the user's original skill, and while extremely powerful, they aren't something that would make Hashirama be respected or more skilled necessarily. 

I also don't have any doubt whatsoever Itachi, Kakashi, HM Jiraiya, Orochimaru, 4th Raikage, Pain, Naruto, etc... can stomp him. That's nothing to be ashamed of, though, as they could take down every single foe Hiruzen ever faced and much more easily.

And Kakashi, who knew Minato much better than Iruka, was the one who said 'Only you, Naruto, can surpass the 4th Hokage'. Why say that, if the 4th already was surpassed or there were ninja stronger than him? This was in Part II, where Minato has much more plot relevance at least than Hiruzen and more of a benchmark. Why keep Hiruzen the strongest when he has no special relation to Naruto at all? At least Madara went as far as to compare Naruto with Hashirama, who by the way is the same guy who beat Madara, and also has more plot relevance.

Now people might say 'Hiruzen is more plot relevant he appeared in the manga' but that's just rubbish. Tenten appeared in the manga probably more often than Hiruzen and yet she did nothing to contribute to the actual plot - unlike Hiruzen.

Hiruzen isn't unimportant, but his plot relevance as of now is very little, and his powers are not being hyped up so much.

Iruka obviously is an honest person, and would never lie about Minato's strength, as he was the one who avenged his parents and took down the Kyubi no Yoko, but did he, or even Kakashi know that Minato fought Uchiha Madara as well?

Now beating the Kyubi seemed an impossible task for the entire village and even Hiruzen himself. Yet Minato could beat the Kyubi WHILE facing an extremely powerful and cunning S-Class Ninja, and the shadow leader of Akatsuki.

So, basically, in no shape or form is Hiruzen 'godly'. Even if he was before, he is far from it now.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2010)

Wind master i don't 100% agree with you on everything, but that post was made of so much win +rep


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## Smiley (Apr 17, 2010)

Itachi^ said:


> 1. Rikudo Sennin
> 2. Hashirama          - Its IMPOSSIBLE to put Prime Madara in front of Hashirama because he got "killed" by him at The Valley of The End.
> 3. Prime Madara
> 4. Minato
> ...



Pein never admitted jiraiya was stronger than him. Show me scans. He said 'If jiraiya knew about our secret, we might not have won'. That doesn't automatically mean that pein admitted his inferioty to jiraiya, just stated that he might not have one if he knew that the real Negato was there.
If anything, jiraiya knew he couldnt beat pain.

And why is Naruto Lower than sasuke, they are about the same in abilities. (Not including Kyuubi's chakra ofcourse)


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## Sadgoob (Apr 17, 2010)

Pein Rikudō is a technique. Jiraiya is likely stronger than Nagato in certain situations. Similar to how Orochimaru raped with Edo Tensei, but maybe not without.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 18, 2010)

Selim said:


> Pein Rikudō is a technique. Jiraiya is likely stronger than Nagato in certain situations. Similar to how Orochimaru raped with Edo Tensei, but maybe not without.



I have to agree with this.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 18, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> And people who even think of justifying Sasuke being stronger than Naruto, think again. Naruto himself looked into Sasuke's heart, as Turrin or Sanji said, and said they were equals. Hell, their Rasengan-Chidori clash just as well proved that with neither side being the stronger.



Naruto said Sasuke was his equal, and he hadn't even seen Sasuke's full power since the last time they met. Him saying they were equal holds no ground at all.

And yes, because when a person who is in perfect condition draws in a power clash against an exhausted blind guy it really does mean they are equal. 



> So what if Naruto said he could not beat Sasuke at his current level? This doesn't mean Sasuke is stronger. He was just referring to the fact that if they fought, they would both die and there would be no victor. So yes, Naruto could NOT defeat Sasuke.



Sasuke isn't stronger, but he *is* deadlier.



> I believe Sasuke has surpassed Itachi. He is better at Taijutsu (Kenjutsu), has much better Ninjutsu and an equal if not better Susano'o, and has much more Stamina as well. Also a more diverse fighter. Itachi's good, but he simply lacks the destructive power of Kirin.



He is also deadlier



> Now beating the Kyubi seemed an impossible task for the entire village and even Hiruzen himself. Yet Minato could beat the Kyubi WHILE facing an extremely powerful and cunning S-Class Ninja, and the shadow leader of Akatsuki.



Off screen, no Madara was shown.


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## ThunderTheo (Apr 18, 2010)

Itachi^ said:


> Honestly? Its hard to determine accurate rankings for people in the manga. They all have certain abilities that make them stronger than other characters, and weaker than others. That aside, here's my list.
> 
> 1. Rikudo Sennin
> 2. Hashirama          - Its IMPOSSIBLE to put Prime Madara in front of Hashirama because he got "killed" by him at The Valley of The End.
> ...



Why is Killer bee ahead of Kisame when Kisame beat the crap out of him with one of his clones?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 18, 2010)

ThunderTheo said:


> Why is Killer bee ahead of Kisame when Kisame beat the crap out of him with one of his clones?



Zetsu switched with Kisame underwater (near the end of the fight) meaning that it was actually Kisame who was fighting Killerbee for the majority of the fight.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 18, 2010)

The fact that Killer Bee was pre-occupied with protecting that guy and the bear/racoon thing and couldn't go full Bijuu hindered him too.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 18, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Naruto said Sasuke was his equal, and he hadn't even seen Sasuke's full power since the last time they met. Him saying they were equal holds no ground at all.
> 
> And yes, because when a person who is in perfect condition draws in a power clash against an exhausted blind guy it really does mean they are equal.
> 
> ...



And Sasuke hadn't seen Naruto's full power at all. His statement about them being equal holds a lot of ground, if you ask me. Their Rasengan-Chidori clash ended with neither side winning. There is a reason why Naruto said that to Sasuke. Do you really believe there would be any point of making him only lie to his rival like that? 

This isn't Pre-Skip Naruto, this is the much more mature and intelligent Post-Skip Naruto.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 18, 2010)

Becose I'm not planing to arguing with Nagato fans again I'll put them in tiers this time:

Tier 0:
Sage Of the Six Paths

Tier 0.5:
Sage Of the Six Paths's Sons

Tier 1:
Hashirama Senju,Madara Uchiha,

Tier 1,5
Kabuto Yakushi

Tier 2:
Itachi Uchiha,Minato Namikaze,Nagato/Pain,Killer Bee,Sasuke Uchiha,Naruto Uzumaki

Tier 3:
Jiraiya,Orochimaru,Hiruzen Sarutobi,Raikage 

Tier 4:
Akasuna no Sasori,Hanzou,Hatake Sakumo,Tobirama Senju,Kisame

Tier 5:
3rd Kazekage,Danzou,Kakuzu,Kakshi,Guy,Izuna

Tier 6:
Deidara,Gaara,Tsunade,Onoki,Mei,Shisui,Chiyo


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## Sadgoob (Apr 18, 2010)

I think I would make tiers like this:

Rikudō Sennin
Hashirama, Madara
Nagato, Minato, Itachi pI, Kabuto, pHiruzen
Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Danzō, Itachi pII, cNaruto, cSasuke, Kirābī, cKakashi
Gaara, Kisame, Ē, Sasori, Deidara, Tobirama, Sakumo, Izuna, Hanzō, Hebi Sasuke
Kakuzu, Tsunade, Ōnoki, Mei, Gai, Zetsu, Shisui, Yagura, Saindaime Kazekage, Yugito
Konan, Chiyo, oHiruzen, Hidan, pI Kakashi, Kimimaro, Yondaime Kazekage, Zabuza
Temari, Asuma, Kurenai, Neji, Torune, Fū, Ao, Shī, Kidomaru, Shikamaru


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## dungsi27 (Apr 19, 2010)

My list would be:
1.Rikudou
2.Hiruzen Sarutobi
3.Hashirama Senju
4.Madara Uchiha
5.Minato Namikaze
6.Sasuke Uchiha
8.Tobirama Senju
9.Kabuto
10.Jiraiya


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 19, 2010)

Why are Tobimara and Sasuke ranked so high, and above Kabuto?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Let alone above Pain on the list.
And it's hilarious when people put Jiraiya and Itachi above Pain. Really


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## Sadgoob (Apr 19, 2010)

Rank Susano'o or Edo Tensei while you're at it. They're better than Pein.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

1.Wood Release Secret Technique: Birth of Dense Woodland 
2.Edo Tensei
3.Susano'o
4.Teleportation 
5.Hiraishin... lol


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## Archlord Falcon (Apr 19, 2010)

Why is Kabuto rated over orochimaru again?

I'm a Jiraiya fan i believe he is better than Nagato, with 0 knowledge he did a pretty good job and he was in all honesty able to escape with his life if he wanted to. Its really a coin toss imo.

Lastly Why would Nagato be higher than Oro or Kabuto, Edo tensei doesn't seem to be any less useful than Pein Rikudō


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Archlord Falcon said:


> Why is Kabuto rated over orochimaru again?
> 
> I'm a Jiraiya fan i believe he is better than Nagato, with 0 knowledge he did a pretty good job and he was in all honesty able to escape with his life if he wanted to. Its really a coin toss imo.
> 
> Lastly Why would Nagato be higher than Oro or Kabuto, Edo tensei doesn't seem to be any less useful than Pein Rikudō



I hope that you are ready for war with Nagato fans...


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## Archlord Falcon (Apr 19, 2010)

I am, i mean he uses a technique right? I don't particularly like Kabuto but the 6 paths of pein vs the rest of akatsuki.. who do you think will win?

I see no outright reason for Nagato > than Kabuto or even Kabuto > than Oro

I'm not taking sides im just asking for justifications

P.S. Can't be much worse than Itachi fan boys


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Archlord Falcon said:


> I am, i mean he uses a technique right? I don't particularly like Kabuto but the 6 paths of pein vs the rest of akatsuki.. who do you think will win?
> 
> I see no outright reason for Nagato > than Kabuto or even Kabuto > than Oro
> 
> I'm not taking sides im just asking for justifications



I agree with you but wait and you will say they believe that he can solo all other Akatsuki members in the same time.



Archlord Falcon said:


> P.S. Can't be much worse than Itachi fan boys



 I'm Itachi fan


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## Archlord Falcon (Apr 19, 2010)

So am i but some Fanboys are without reason


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Agreed someone even believe that he can defeat Sage Of The Six Paths lol


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Selim said:


> Rank Susano'o or Edo Tensei while you're at it. They're better than Pein.



Except for a few tiny details. Like Pain being a walking counter to them.

Falcon:



> Why is Kabuto rated over orochimaru again?
> 
> I'm a Jiraiya fan i believe he is better than Nagato, with 0 knowledge he did a pretty good job and he was in all honesty able to escape with his life if he wanted to. Its really a coin toss imo.
> 
> Lastly Why would Nagato be higher than Oro or Kabuto, Edo tensei doesn't seem to be any less useful than Pein Rikudō



Jiraiya is better than Nagato...how? He couldn't win a straight fight against three bodies and had to rely on frog Song. That lacked Pain's top two bodies.

And are you seriously trying to say Orochimaru is stronger than the guy he was serving for years? Orochimaru? Edo Tensei is kind oi hindered by Pain having the ability to yank souls out, or summon a giant demonic statue that can do the same


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## Jinnobi (Apr 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except for a few tiny details. Like Pain being a walking counter to them.



Is Pein a walking counter to everything, in your opinion? Because it seems to be the case, based off your numerous posts explicating the awesome power of your favorite character.

Care to explain how Pein is now the counter to Susano'o and Edo Tensei?

(If you say Petra Path I'm going to have a field day)


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## Archlord Falcon (Apr 19, 2010)

And before you you yank out those souls? As i have no idea how much knowledge Nagato has on Oro or Edo, i assume its 0... but before you yank out those souls, is your imperical vision made void by bringer of darkness, or are most of the Pein bodys blown to bits by Deidara c4? Its highly debatable. Edo Tensi not to mention half of Oro's other techs make him much more versatile i would say? I doubt 1 Pein body would trump the various persons Oro Kabuto could summon, without falling


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Is Pein a walking counter to everything, in your opinion? Because it seems to be the case, based off your numerous posts explicating the awesome power of your favorite character.
> 
> Care to explain how Pein is now the counter to Susano'o and Edo Tensei?
> 
> (If you say Petra Path I'm going to have a field day)



Well, Jinnobi, as you are a dishonest Itachi fanboy, you probably just ignored the total counter to everything in your topic. Yes, Preta is a counter to Susanoo. Know why? Yata's Mirror, which is made out of chakra anyways, only reflects attacks. Preta's barrier is a purely defensive technique. Susanoo is also made of chakra and Preta has demonstrated sufficient speed in this regard. And of course, there's the tiny detail of it failing to block Kirin completely, so Super Shinra Tensei would rip the user apart

And Edo Tensei. Oh, me oh my, if only one of Pain's bodies could rip out someone's soul with no eff-....wait.

If only Pain's bodies could summon an enormous demon statue with dragons aimed at ripping out one's soul...wait.
Edo Tensei zombies aren't known for self preservation. They're mindless killing machines.



> And before you you yank out those souls? As i have no idea how much knowledge Nagato has on Oro or Edo, i assume its 0... but before you yank out those souls, is your imperical vision made void by bringer of darkness, or are most of the Pein bodys blown to bits by Deidara c4? Its highly debatable. Edo Tensi not to mention half of Oro's other techs make him much more versatile i would say? I doubt 1 Pein body would trump the various persons Oro Kabuto could summon, without falling



Orochimaru *Worked for Nagato and his techniques are common knowledge*. Zetsu, Itachi, Sasori and Deidara were all knowledgable on what he could do. You think the boss, who has shown to be extremely knowledgable on the subject of his followers, would have zero knowledge?

Also, Pain's bodies? They don't breathe, C4 is kinda worthless. They're walking corpses. And problem? Hashirama doesn't start off with the darkness globe and Pain sees chakra with the Rinnegan anyways. Hell, it's possible he's been shown to sense it, as he felt Zetsu close by after the Jiraiya fight. All he needs to do is summon Gedo Mazo, which isn't affected by the Genjutsu. Moreover, a visual Genjutsu won't have much an effect since Hashirama can't cast it on Nagato himself.

And look at Orochimaru's own abilities...there are a lot of ways Pain can kill him. Orochimaru is neither strong, nor fast enough against him


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## daschysta (Apr 19, 2010)

Human realm can suck the souls out of the edo tensei corpses.

And yes hungry ghost can theoretically suck the chakra from the susanoo shrouds, though it would be difficult to do without being hit with itachi's swords, it does beg the question though, would itachi's sword work on the bodies of the realms? They arent alive and are being controlled remotely, thus I dont know if genjutsu would work.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Orochimaru summons Sage Of the Six Paths and Nagato dies.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Human realm can suck the souls out of the edo tensei corpses.
> 
> And yes hungry ghost can theoretically suck the chakra from the susanoo shrouds, though it would be difficult to do without being hit with itachi's swords, it does beg the question though, would itachi's sword work on the bodies of the realms? They arent alive and are being controlled remotely, thus I dont know if genjutsu would work.



Something to add: why would the sword not be absorbed?


And if Orochimaru didn't summon the Sage of Six Paths against Hiruzen? Non issue. I think people kind of forget the prep time Edo Tensei requires. If someone can attack BEFORE the coffin comes out-the coffin can be stopped, remember- and kill Orochimaru, the technique is moot


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## Archlord Falcon (Apr 19, 2010)

I mean its not like Nagato can't win but your saying he is indestructable and if all i have to do is kill a big fatty to make Edo Tensie raaaaaaaape Nagato how hard can that be? It has been shown that the bodys can be affected by genjutsu which is good as... Shodai and ITachi are ressurected, can your dragon statue be shot down by make a c2 missile or can Dei commit suicide, which is not a problem since he is dead to blow up your dragon or your big fatty? I'm not sure but i think the answer is yes

And the reference to the Sage of Six PAths i won't support it but its not impossible.


YOUR REFERENCE IS NOT MOOT

Sarutobi who KNOWS THE JUSTU, he knows all jutsu HE could stop the coffin, HE DID NOT ATTK ORO.... MADARA COULDNT STOP THE COFFIN, THE REAL BOSS OF AKATSUKI, he listen to Kabuto instead of stopping the coffin and proceding to attack... 

Oro LEFT AKATSUKI, MADARA OBVIOUSLY DOESNT KNOW HOW TO PERFORM EDO TENSIE, THE MASTER OF THE SHARINGAN nor STOP IT

P.S. I don't need to spell correctly just get my point across


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Archlord Falcon said:


> I mean its not like Nagato can't win but your saying he is indestructable and if all i have to do is kill a big fatty to make Edo Tensie raaaaaaaape Nagato how hard can that be? It has been shown that the bodys can be affected by genjutsu which is good as... Shodai and ITachi are ressurected, can your dragon statue be shot down by make a c2 missile or can Dei commit suicide, which is not a problem since he is dead to blow up your dragon or your big fatty? I'm not sure but i think the answer is yes
> 
> And the reference to the Sage of Six PAths i won't support it but its not impossible.



Erm....you need to check a few things...
1. The fat Pain sucks CHAKRA. Human Realm sucks souls. Gedo Mazo sucks souls. Preta has nothing to do with those
2. Apparently? Pretty hard if Fat Pain can intercept Rasenshuriken
3. The bodies are affected by Frog Song. Frog Song is not a normal Genjutsu. In fact, it specifically targets the nerves of the body AND the mind instead of just the mind. The bodies are mindles
4. Why would Nagato stand around doing nothing when the coffins came up and the seals had yet to be implanted?
5. Evidence Gedo Mazo can be destroyed?
6. Why can't fat Pain absorb the explosions? They're from Deidara's chakra.

Your not making much sense here


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Something to add: why would the sword not be absorbed?



I dont know if susano'o can be absorbed, i do beleive that susano'os sword would absorb the absorber.



Lightysnake said:


> And if Orochimaru didn't summon the Sage of Six Paths against Hiruzen? Non issue. I think people kind of forget the prep time Edo Tensei requires. If someone can attack BEFORE the coffin comes out-the coffin can be stopped, remember- and kill Orochimaru, the technique is moot



Let's say He didn't have know him than,now he knows  him.Nagato won't stop the coffin he lacks of knowledge.

What if Oro summon Minato?Don't say me that he will defeat him.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Susanoo= chakra

Preta= absorbs ALL tecnhniques accoridng to the databook. ALL kinda of chakra, no matter what. Susanoo is chakra and the second is touches the barrier, it's gone. The Chou Oodama Rasengan was absorbed instantly

And who's to say Edo Tensei can summon someone whose soul is SEALED?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Susanoo= chakra
> 
> Preta= absorbs ALL tecnhniques accoridng to the databook. ALL kinda of chakra, no matter what. Susanoo is chakra and the second is touches the barrier, it's gone. The Chou Oodama Rasengan was absorbed instantly




Susanoo
1.It makes Itachi tottaly invincible.
2.It has a heavenly shield that blocks/reflects all attacks.
3.It has a heavenly blade that not only is spiritual (therefor it can't be broken) it *absorbs and cuts anything*.




Lightysnake said:


> And who's to say Edo Tensei can summon someone whose soul is SEALED?



yeah lol.Nevermind he can summon everyone:Hanzou,Sakumo,Jiraiya.3rd Kazekage,Itachi... and Pain solos?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

1. Pain is described as invincible as well, so what? Hyperbole doesn't matter
2. Preta's technique isn't an attack
3. Mistranslation. Senjuclan covered this in his topic. Also, 'spiritual' in this manga, is a synonym for 'made of chakra.' Remember Tayuya's 'spiritual' warriors? What wer ehtye made of? Susanoo is made of chakra, Preta absorbs Chakra. Get over it.
Moreover, Edo Tensei is only if he gets the prep time for it. And if, y'know, Pain just stands around watching the coffins and then lets Orochimaru implant the seals


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## Archlord Falcon (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't mean to participate in trolling this thread but im unsure if fatty can absorbe an explosion i have seen him eat alot but if a technique makes a nuke n then the nuke explodes i suppose he can but i am unsure. 

I am also unsure if it can summon a sealed soul

There is no evidence Gedo Mazo can be destroyed but what can't in all honestly, worse its a summon worse its a statue and i still fail to believe the slimy Oro or Kabuto will just die without being able to kill 2 pein bodys and if those pein bodys were to die what would stop them from plowing through the rest

I believe Shodai's genjutsu is up there in the Genjutsu rank, there is no evidence to support whether they will be affected or not but it is an aoe, they all share the same chakra and... there is no evidence to support a Nagato vs Kabuto Fight either, this is all speculation.

Pein is strong i am unconvinced that he is Out right better than KAbuto or ORo but thats your list and your opinion, my opinion is no matter how many souls he can suck or how much chakra he can absorb, he has no knowledge of Edo Tensie, the 3rd used a Jutsu that no1 knew of, not the 1st, 2nd or Oro, to stop Edo Tensie. Madara did not stop the jutsu so, im just finding it hard to believe that if all the former members of Akatsuki or The Past Hokages, which seemed to be ORo's theme when fighting Sarutobi, were summoned that Nagato would walk over them, worse he really is just a kid in comparison to Oro, Sarutobi and Madara


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## Sadgoob (Apr 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Moreover, Edo Tensei is only if he gets the prep time for it. And if, y'know, Pain just stands around watching the coffins and then lets Orochimaru implant the seals



Pein Rikudō is a technique requiring more preparation than Edo Tensei.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Selim said:


> The same thing was said about Susano'o, right?


Did the point fly over your head?
Of course, play that game? Itachi needs a technique that kills him to become invincible. Pain? Doesn't



> Pein Rikudō is a technique requiring more preparation than Edo Tensei.



Don't recall it being referred to as such. It's simply Nagato's default way of fighting.




> I don't mean to participate in trolling this thread but im unsure if fatty can absorbe an explosion i have seen him eat alot but if a technique makes a nuke n then the nuke explodes i suppose he can but i am unsure.


The technique's databook profile says he absorbs all techniques..



> I am also unsure if it can summon a sealed soul
> 
> There is no evidence Gedo Mazo can be destroyed but what can't in all honestly, worse its a summon worse its a statue and i still fail to believe the slimy Oro or Kabuto will just die without being able to kill 2 pein bodys and if those pein bodys were to die what would stop them from plowing through the rest


Why didn't Hanzo just attack it instead of running?
And you know something else? Those Pain bodies are fast. They're strong. They're defended by other beings that're fast and strong. Demon Realm can kill them. So can Human Realm. You're working in fantastic scenarios that require Pain to be paralyzed, stupid and slower than he really is



> I believe Shodai's genjutsu is up there in the Genjutsu rank, there is no evidence to support whether they will be affected or not but it is an aoe, they all share the same chakra and... there is no evidence to support a Nagato vs Kabuto Fight either, this is all speculation.


Look at it this way: Frog Song, unlike EVERY other genjutsu, targets the body itself. Not just the mind. Why is this a problem? Nagato's the only mind for the bodies. They have physical brains, sure, but Nagato can just snap them out of it



> Pein is strong i am unconvinced that he is Out right better than KAbuto or ORo but thats your list and your opinion, my opinion is no matter how many souls he can suck or how much chakra he can absorb, he has no knowledge of Edo Tensie, the 3rd used a Jutsu that no1 knew of, not the 1st, 2nd or Oro, to stop Edo Tensie. Madara did not stop the jutsu so, im just finding it hard to believe that if all the former members of Akatsuki or The Past Hokages, which seemed to be ORo's theme when fighting Sarutobi, were summoned that Nagato would walk over them, worse he really is just a kid in comparison to Oro, Sarutobi and Madara


So? Again, why did Orochimaru serve him for years if he were stronger? If Pain sees Orochimaru prepping coffins with dead people coming out, why not use his techniques to drain out souls before Orochimaru can set them on attack?
Hiruzen hardly knew much of ET either, but he lasted long enough to use his own soul rip.

Pain? Pain doesn't need to kill himself to do that


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## Sadgoob (Apr 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Of course, play that game? Itachi needs a technique that kills him to become invincible. Pain? Doesn't



Pein Rikudō is a technique. 



It's quite healthy for Nagato. Nagato *isn't* a technique.



Lightysnake said:


> Don't recall it being referred to as such. It's simply Nagato's default way of fighting.



It's a technique that requires a lot of preparation.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Selim said:


> Maybe you didn't notice Nagato's state?


And yet, according to the databook, Pain boasts invincibility. He doesn't need a life draining technique to do it, either.
Can't have it both ways. You screeching it over and over makes no difference. It's any different than Sasori using puppets how? Last I checked, Orochimaru didn't use Edo Tensei in every fight he was in and had to actually prepare sacrifices for it.




> It's a technique that requires preparation. Nothing more, nothing less.



Show me where it's referred to as a technique.
Whatever it is, that's how Pain fights-the six bodies. It doesn't require any more preparation than Orochimaru waking up in the morning


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

Concession accepted


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> 1. Pain is described as invincible as well, so what? Hyperbole doesn't matter
> 2. Preta's technique isn't an attack
> 3. Mistranslation. Senjuclan covered this in his topic. Also, 'spiritual' in this manga, is a synonym for 'made of chakra.' Remember Tayuya's 'spiritual' warriors? What wer ehtye made of? Susanoo is made of chakra, Preta absorbs Chakra. Get over it.
> Moreover, Edo Tensei is only if he gets the prep time for it. And if, y'know, Pain just stands around watching the coffins and then lets Orochimaru implant the seals




1.Itachi is *tottaly *invincible  lol
2.Preta gets sealed before it even gets close.
3.DB : Sword is spirutal : Sealing everything.
Madara couldn't stop Kabuto,why would Pain stop Oro?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 19, 2010)

1. There's a level of 'invincible?' Pain is invincible on his own. Itachi needs a technique. Pain>Itachi
2. PReta can absorb or dodge it
3. Spiritual= made of chakra. Preta= absorbs ALL techniques. 

Madara has Pain's techniques and movesets? Lol.

I love how you use hyperbole as fact


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 19, 2010)

1.Pain is jutsu
2.The Same like I said before
3.The same like I said before

Madara is faster than Pain.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 19, 2010)

He's not faster, his _jutsu_ is faster.


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## Rampage (Apr 19, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> He's not faster, his _jutsu_ is faster.



What do you mean?


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## Panos (Apr 19, 2010)

That Madara using his legs to move/run etc is slower than Deva Pain.

Using his teleportation jutsu however he can reach his destination faster.


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## Rampage (Apr 19, 2010)

So? Is he not the one performing the jutsu?

Madara is faster even if it is because of his jutsu, its still him.


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## Panos (Apr 19, 2010)

I will not _apologise_ for posts made by other people.


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## Rampage (Apr 19, 2010)

Apologise for what? lol


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## Panos (Apr 19, 2010)

Infamous said:


> Apologise for what? lol



It was metaphorical actually.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 19, 2010)

Infamous said:


> So? Is he not the one performing the jutsu?
> 
> Madara is faster even if it is because of his jutsu, its still him.



So Minato is as fast as Hirashin? By your logic that is. 

What I'm saying is, that isn't his speed. It's the effect of his jutsu.


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## Panos (Apr 19, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> So Minato is as fast as Hirashin? By your logic that is.
> 
> What I'm saying is, that isn't his speed. It's the effect of his jutsu.



Not the same, not the same...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 21, 2010)

1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara
3. Yakushi Kabuto
4. Killer Bee
5. Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke
6. Rikudou Pain
7. Namikaze Minato
8. Shimura Danzo
9. 4th Raikage
10. Uchiha Itachi
11. Akasuna no Sasori*
12. Deidara*
13. Jiraiya
14. Orochimaru
15. Kazekage Gaara
16. Kakuzu*
17. Hoshigaki Kisame
18. Sarutobi Hiruzen (Prime)
19. Senju Tobirama
20. Tsunade/Terumi Mei

* refers to them placed as high as they are, because they are now 'immortal' due to Edo Tensei.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 21, 2010)

Ugh, why the hell are you ranking Nagato/Pain so low?! What feats have the guys up above done that put them above Pain? There is no way that Naruto and Sasuke are stronger than him, nor Killer Bee, or Kabuto, and Madara and Hashirama are so overestimated, they aren't as strong as they would be WITHOUT their Bijuu under their control!

Wind Master, why the hell do you continue to underestimate Pain?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

their Bijuu are their powers...


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## Eboue (Apr 21, 2010)

thought it was accepted that Pain was strongest member of akatsuki? didnt kishi say it or something?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 21, 2010)

Eboue said:


> thought it was accepted that Pain was strongest member of akatsuki? didnt kishi say it or something?


Kishi, the manga, the databooks, and the fanbooks have all put Pain as the strongest being since the Rikudou Sennin. He has the strongest Dojutsu, the strongest attacks, and the best jutsus shown. 

He is just on another tier that will probably not be surpassed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> their Bijuu are their powers...


Controlling Bijuu are their powers. Without their Bijuu, they are no where near as strong since they don't have WMD's to use.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 21, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Ugh, why the hell are you ranking Nagato/Pain so low?! What feats have the guys up above done that put them above Pain? There is no way that Naruto and Sasuke are stronger than him, nor Killer Bee, or Kabuto, and Madara and Hashirama are so overestimated, they aren't as strong as they would be WITHOUT their Bijuu under their control!
> 
> Wind Master, why the hell do you continue to underestimate Pain?



I don't underestimate Pain, you're overestimating him. 

So low? Naruto and Sasuke *are* IMO stronger than him, although I will concur that it is not by much at all, just a small difference. Killer Bee on the other hand, as well as Kabuto, Madara and Hashirama are without a doubt much more powerful. 

The Bijuu were part of Madara and Hashirama's powers. The Bijuu can just be considered ninja tools or Summons in the same way the Inuzuka Clan's ninken were. One Bijuu was owning Pain (Kyubi) with half of its power. Madara had the full Yin-Yang Kyubi, and Hashirama beat both. Either would be enough to utterly annihilate Nagato.

Kabuto can Summon Deidara, Itachi, Kakuzu, several other powerful pawns and even Nagato himself from the dead. Madara, who laughed at Pain's title of 'invincible' and Naruto beating him, realized and admitted directly that Kabuto would be a massive threat to him if he faced him in combat. 

Kabuto is probably stronger than Pain for these reasons.

Killer Bee can fully transform into the 8-Tails. 8-Tailed Naruto with nowhere as much control over himself as KB was owning Pain. His awesome swordplay and speed, combined with his sheer 'invulnerability' and strength empowered by the Tailed States, might be a little too much for Pain to handle.

Relax, Pain is one of my favorite characters, and this is my opinion, it's not absolute fact (although I believe it is ). It's not that I'm like one of those tards who believe that Itachi could tank the Moon with Susano'o, am I?

And your argument about the Bijuu holds no weight whatsoever. They're just like ninja tools and Summons. In the Chuunin Exams, the exam proctor said that Akamaru was allowed to fight alongside Kiba against Naruto despite being another living being and making it a 2-against-1, as a ninja tool. Akamaru is neither subservient to Kiba as the Bijuu were to Hashirama and Madara, and did not follow Kiba's every command. 

Plus, he was just tamed by Kiba by normal means, whereas Hashirama and Madara bent the Bijuu's will entirely to serve them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 21, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> I don't underestimate Pain, you're overestimating him.


No, I'm not. I'm going by what the manga says. Pain is the strongest being in the manga since the Rikudou Sennin.


> So low? Naruto and Sasuke *are* IMO stronger than him, although I will concur that it is not by much at all, just a small difference. Killer Bee on the other hand, as well as Kabuto, Madara and Hashirama are without a doubt much more powerful.


Yeah, its not like Naruto only beat Pain with help, oh wait, he DID. And that's after Pain effortlessly destroyed Konoha. And nevermind that Pain is the worst opponent for Sasuke to come up against.

Kabuto stronger than Pain?! What the fuck is that shit? He hasn't done anything on the level to put him above _Orochimaru_, much less Pain. And nevermind the fact that Pain has the perfect jutsus to make the Edo Tensei powerless.

Madara and Hashirama are not more powerful. They have the inferior bloodlines to the Rinnegan, and haven't shown anything on the level of destroying Konoha with only a team of six and creating a fucking mini-moon.

And Killer Bee-Pain is again the worst opponent he can come up against.


> The Bijuu were part of Madara and Hashirama's powers. The Bijuu can just be considered ninja tools or Summons in the same way the Inuzuka Clan's ninken were. One Bijuu was owning Pain (Kyubi) with half of its power. Madara had the full Yin-Yang Kyubi, and Hashirama beat both. Either would be enough to utterly annihilate Nagato.


No, Pain wasn't being owned by Kyubi six-tail. He just ran into range to get the Chibaku Tensei loaded. And Madara and Hashirama's powers to control Bijuu were the only reason why they were so strong. Without them, they are much weaker.


> Kabuto can Summon Deidara, Itachi, Kakuzu, several other powerful pawns and even Nagato himself from the dead. Madara, who laughed at Pain's title of 'invincible' and Naruto beating him, realized and admitted directly that Kabuto would be a massive threat to him if he faced him in combat.


Madara didn't laugh at Nagato's title of the strongest. And guess what-Edo Tensei Zombies are no where near the level they were in life. And Naruto only beat Pain  because he had help, Pain was tired, and that Naruto initially LOST remember?


> Kabuto is probably stronger than Pain for these reasons.


Kabuto is no where near the level of Pain. None of his feats support it.


> Killer Bee can fully transform into the 8-Tails. 8-Tailed Naruto with nowhere as much control over himself as KB was owning Pain. His awesome swordplay and speed, combined with his sheer 'invulnerability' and strength empowered by the Tailed States, might be a little too much for Pain to handle.


And each Pain body is Jiraiya level, who is superior to Killer Bee in amny ways. And nevermind the fact that when Bee gets pierced by a chakra rod, he'll have trouble controlling his bijuu. Not only that, all of his jutsus get eaten up by Hungry Ghost and he has to deal with swarms of missiles, swarms, Human Realm's taijutsu, and the gravitational powers.

And the paths are fast enough to outspeed Kakashi even when Damaged and avoid Sage Mode Naruto's punches. So no, Bee isn't speedblitzing them.



> And your argument about the Bijuu holds no weight whatsoever. They're just like ninja tools and Summons. In the Chuunin Exams, the exam proctor said that Akamaru was allowed to fight alongside Kiba against Naruto despite being another living being and making it a 2-against-1, as a ninja tool. Akamaru is neither subservient to Kiba as the Bijuu were to Hashirama and Madara, and did not follow Kiba's every command.


And yeah, take the Bijuu away from Hashirama and Madara and how strong would they be? The Bijuu are the ONLY reason why Hashirama and Madara were considered so strong, without them, they are no where near as powerful.


> Plus, he was just tamed by Kiba by normal means, whereas Hashirama and Madara bent the Bijuu's will entirely to serve them.


And how many matches do you think Hashirama or Madara used the Bijuu? Hashirama had a collection-prove he used them in battle.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 21, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, I'm not. I'm going by what the manga says. Pain is the strongest being in the manga since the Rikudou Sennin.
> 
> Yeah, its not like Naruto only beat Pain with help, oh wait, he DID. And that's after Pain effortlessly destroyed Konoha. And nevermind that Pain is the worst opponent for Sasuke to come up against.
> 
> ...



1. Naruto didn't have that much help. Elaborate please. In fact he was gimped by PIS. Why didn't Ma and Pa go into SM earlier? And plus, having 2 Sage Bunshins actually nerfed Naruto. He didn't need prep time for SM, all those Summons would have been enough to buy him time.

Yahiko Realm was out of commission, but so what? There were still 5 other Realms, and it's not as if Yahiko could have helped a lot, Kakashi who is much weaker than Naruto was capable of beating him w/o support with a single Kamui and even Hinata, who is much less durable than SM Naruto, survived his Shinra Tensei for quite some time. When Tenten came to her, she said her wounds only 'might' be fatal. 

Intel? LOlwut? Naruto had intel on only 2 Realms. Pain had intel on Naruto's basics, as Deidara fought Naruto using KN0-KN2, Rasengan, Kage Bunshin and knew about his basic personality. He likely knew about how Kakuzu was killed by the FRS too. If intel made such a big difference, perhaps the gap wasn't so big after all.

And Pain's Rinnegan was the only reason he could destroy a PIS-gimped Konoha, one lacking Team Gai and ROOT's support. Gai, Tsunade, Danzo, Torune, Kakashi, Hiashi, Neji, Lee and ninja from the other clans together would be enough to dispatch Pain.

Naruto was weakened too. He came back from training in the beginning, arduous training, and it was he who went through KN6-KN8. We saw how much going Kyubi weakened him against Sasuke. And that was JUST KN4. 

Proof please? Neither the Databook nor the manga itself supports your claims. The Edo Tensei only follow the commands of the user, that was it. Orochimaru said the Tensei Hokage were simply toying with Sarutobi. In other words, they weren't using their full power, but only because that's not the order Oro gave to them.

Each Pain Realm is Jiraiya-level? That's the biggest piece of nonsense I ever heard. Now you're seriously overestimating Pain. Jiraiya would own any one Pain Realm one-on-one as he said, just that too many of them together was a bit too much for him to deal with. Pain also had full knowledge on the J-Man and Jiraiya had none on Pain really. Pain also had the advantage of not unleashing 6 Paths at once...which is not usually how he fights. Otherwise, at least 4 Realms would have been beaten.

2. Uh, uh. Kabuto is far stronger than Orochimaru. Edo Tensei, summon Itachi, bam, dead Orochimaru.

3. So? Lee didn't even have a bloodline and yet he owned Two-Tomoe Sasuke easily the first time they fought. Pain is not the final villain of the manga, not even close. It would be between Madara, Sasuke and the Juubi.

4. You mean, Killer Bee is the worst opponent Pain could face. How would Hungry Realm absorb the 8-Tailed Blast? Did you see the size of that thing? Asura's missiles and Human's strength will do nothing to someone protected by the shroud of a Tailed Beast. 

And why the hell do you think Hashirama never used them in battle? How else did he beat Madara? Why else would he keep Bijuu, other than for battle? And why else did Orochimaru prize his Mokuton skills so much, other than for controlling them for combat?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 21, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> 1. Naruto didn't have that much help. Elaborate please. In fact he was gimped by PIS. Why didn't Ma and Pa go into SM earlier? And plus, having 2 Sage Bunshins actually nerfed Naruto. He didn't need prep time for SM, all those Summons would have been enough to buy him time.


Fukasaku and Shima were already in Sage Mode. And yeah, he did need prep and help to beat Pain.


> Yahiko Realm was out of commission, but so what? There were still 5 other Realms, and it's not as if Yahiko could have helped a lot, Kakashi who is much weaker than Naruto was capable of beating him w/o support with a single Kamui and even Hinata, who is much less durable than SM Naruto, survived his Shinra Tensei for quite some time. When Tenten came to her, she said her wounds only 'might' be fatal.


God Realm, call him it right. The five other realms had recovered extremely slowly and weren't 100% when the battle started. 

And God Realm is the strongest of the realms, if he had been fighting from the start, Naruto would have lost. Hell the moment he got back into the fight Naruto DID lose.


> Intel? LOlwut? Naruto had intel on only 2 Realms. Pain had intel on Naruto's basics, as Deidara fought Naruto using KN0-KN2, Rasengan, Kage Bunshin and knew about his basic personality. He likely knew about how Kakuzu was killed by the FRS too. If intel made such a big difference, perhaps the gap wasn't so big after all.


Naruto had intelligence on all the realms that Jiraiya fought. And Naruto needed intelligence in the battle, or else, like Fukasaku said, it'd be impossible to beat Pain.


> And Pain's Rinnegan was the only reason he could destroy a PIS-gimped Konoha, one lacking Team Gai and ROOT's support. Gai, Tsunade, Danzo, Torune, Kakashi, Hiashi, Neji, Lee and ninja from the other clans together would be enough to dispatch Pain.


No, they wouldn't. Team Gai could barely handle a 30% Kisame, they would be overwhelmed by one realm of Pain. Danzo chose not to send ROOT because he knew Pain was unstoppable. And Tsunade needed to keep casualties down.

There was no PIS. You only claim it because you don't like how the Invasion happened.


> Naruto was weakened too. He came back from training in the beginning, arduous training, and it was he who went through KN6-KN8. We saw how much going Kyubi weakened him against Sasuke. And that was JUST KN4.


Naruto was 100% when he arrived, he wasn't weakened in the slightest.


> Proof please? Neither the Databook nor the manga itself supports your claims. The Edo Tensei only follow the commands of the user, that was it. Orochimaru said the Tensei Hokage were simply toying with Sarutobi. In other words, they weren't using their full power, but only because that's not the order Oro gave to them.


Edo Tensei summons the soul to a fodder ninja, they have all the powers but weren't as good as they were in life. And nevermind the fact that Pain has the perfect jutsu to deal with it.


> Each Pain Realm is Jiraiya-level? That's the biggest piece of nonsense I ever heard. Now you're seriously overestimating Pain. Jiraiya would own any one Pain Realm one-on-one as he said, just that too many of them together was a bit too much for him to deal with. Pain also had full knowledge on the J-Man and Jiraiya had none on Pain really. Pain also had the advantage of not unleashing 6 Paths at once...which is not usually how he fights. Otherwise, at least 4 Realms would have been beaten.


Animal Realm forced Base-Jiraiya into Sage Mode. Jiraiya knew he needed Sage Mode to even FIGHT Pain, and not only that, three realms were more than enough to overwhelm Sage Mode Jiraiya and force him into a retreat. And Pain did unleash all six realms at the end, completely outclassing and overwhelming Jiraiya.

So yeah, one Realm=Base Jiraiya. Since one realm was more than enough to force him to use Sage Mode.


> 2. Uh, uh. Kabuto is far stronger than Orochimaru. Edo Tensei, summon Itachi, bam, dead Orochimaru.


And said Itachi is a mindless beast who can't use his best powers. And Edo Tensei is ONE jutsu, Orochimaru can use it too.


> 3. So? Lee didn't even have a bloodline and yet he owned Two-Tomoe Sasuke easily the first time they fought. Pain is not the final villain of the manga, not even close. It would be between Madara, Sasuke and the Juubi.


And Pain's powers and feats will keep him in the top tier and as number 1 until Naruto masters the kyubi. 


> 4. You mean, Killer Bee is the worst opponent Pain could face. How would Hungry Realm absorb the 8-Tailed Blast? Did you see the size of that thing? Asura's missiles and Human's strength will do nothing to someone protected by the shroud of a Tailed Beast.


If Bee fully transforms, he's put into the largest Chibaku Tensei we've ever seen. And Hungry Ghost has _no limit_ in his absorption, he can probably eat all of the Eight Tailed blast.

Demon Realm's missiles can destroy entire city blocks and put a serious hurting down on anything they hit. And Human Realm's strength is enough to manhandle Sage Mode Jiraiya.


> And why the hell do you think Hashirama never used them in battle? How else did he beat Madara? Why else would he keep Bijuu, other than for battle? And why else did Orochimaru prize his Mokuton skills so much, other than for controlling them for combat?


Hashirama probably beat Madara by surpressing the Kyubi. Hell I doubt Konoha even HAD the Bijuu they did at the point of the Battle of the Valley of the End. 

And Hashirama probably didn't use the Bijuu in combat. You have to show he did.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> 1. Naruto didn't have that much help. Elaborate please. In fact he was gimped by PIS. Why didn't Ma and Pa go into SM earlier? And plus, having 2 Sage Bunshins actually nerfed Naruto. He didn't need prep time for SM, all those Summons would have been enough to buy him time.


....go in SM? Ma and Pa are naturally like that. They were helping against the summons to boot and when things heated up, they were prepping Frog Song to end things quickly.
Do you think Naruto could've taken Animal Realm without Bunta, Hiro and Ken?



> Yahiko Realm was out of commission, but so what? There were still 5 other Realms, and it's not as if Yahiko could have helped a lot, Kakashi who is much weaker than Naruto was capable of beating him w/o support with a single Kamui and even Hinata, who is much less durable than SM Naruto, survived his Shinra Tensei for quite some time. When Tenten came to her, she said her wounds only 'might' be fatal.


It turns out Kakashi wasn't capable of beating him with support as Kakashi kind of died in the process. And with a single Kamui, if he used it offensively, Kakashi could beat anyone. And Pain intended to just stab Hinata. He controls the power of ST and KOed Hinata with it...then he kind of stabbed her in the chest. 
Do you think he cared enough to make it an instant death blow? The purpose was a point to Naruto. Gamabunta, way more durable than Hinata, had his bones broken by an ST.
We've also seen Sage Mode Naruto damaged by an ST



> Intel? LOlwut? Naruto had intel on only 2 Realms. Pain had intel on Naruto's basics, as Deidara fought Naruto using KN0-KN2, Rasengan, Kage Bunshin and knew about his basic personality. He likely knew about how Kakuzu was killed by the FRS too. If intel made such a big difference, perhaps the gap wasn't so big after all.


Erm...Naruto had info on Human...Hungry Ghost and Animal.
If you want to talk about Naruto's intel, he also knew:
Pain could revive other bodies
The probable existence of Nagato himself, IE: the big secret Jiraiya might've beaten him with...
Pain couldn't use his two strongest bodies. Deva? Outta commission. Demon? Destroyed before the fight started proper.
Are you forgetting that when Deva was back in commission, Naruto got rather crushed?



> And Pain's Rinnegan was the only reason he could destroy a PIS-gimped Konoha, one lacking Team Gai and ROOT's support. Gai, Tsunade, Danzo, Torune, Kakashi, Hiashi, Neji, Lee and ninja from the other clans together would be enough to dispatch Pain.


Maybe, maybe not. Take Danzo out of the equation and not a chance, though. If Danzo could have done it, he'd have done it and won support that way. 
Pain's Rinnegan is kinda the source of his power. Itachi's MS is his, the Kyuubi accounts for a lot of Naruto's, the Hachibi for Bee, Shisui's eye and the Sharingarm for Danzo...



> Naruto was weakened too. He came back from training in the beginning, arduous training, and it was he who went through KN6-KN8. We saw how much going Kyubi weakened him against Sasuke. And that was JUST KN4.


He was in Sage Mode after that ended. He was kind of fine with that taken into account



> Proof please? Neither the Databook nor the manga itself supports your claims. The Edo Tensei only follow the commands of the user, that was it. Orochimaru said the Tensei Hokage were simply toying with Sarutobi. In other words, they weren't using their full power, but only because that's not the order Oro gave to them.


They were aiming to kill him, Sarutobi decided-quickly on- to use the Reaper Seal. That was al



> Each Pain Realm is Jiraiya-level? That's the biggest piece of nonsense I ever heard. Now you're seriously overestimating Pain. Jiraiya would own any one Pain Realm one-on-one as he said, just that too many of them together was a bit too much for him to deal with. Pain also had full knowledge on the J-Man and Jiraiya had none on Pain really. Pain also had the advantage of not unleashing 6 Paths at once...which is not usually how he fights. Otherwise, at least 4 Realms would have been beaten.


Well, most of them are faster. Deva and Asura would certainly kill him. 
I think you might forget that base Jiraiya was having his hands full with Animal Realm. Pain didn't summon Human and Hungry Ghost until Jiraiya went Sage Mode. In Sage Mode, yes, Jiraiya would destroy most Realms one on one.
However, it's not true Pain had full knowledge on Jiraiya. He knew ONLY what he'd seen in Rain, decades ago. He had no idea about Sage Mode or anything but Jiraiya's basics. 
When Pain unleashed all six paths? Jiraiya was destroyed



> 2. Uh, uh. Kabuto is far stronger than Orochimaru. Edo Tensei, summon Itachi, bam, dead Orochimaru.


If we give prep time, what prevents Orochimaru from selecting Izuna or Hikaku Uchiha? Or Shisui, or Shodai again?



> 3. So? Lee didn't even have a bloodline and yet he owned Two-Tomoe Sasuke easily the first time they fought. Pain is not the final villain of the manga, not even close. It would be between Madara, Sasuke and the Juubi.


Why does that matter? See how Madara's valuing the Rinnegan? Pain was the strongest in Akatsuki, that included Madara himself at the time, and he had the much stronger Doujutsu. 
This isn't the manga that really does the sorting algorithm of evil



> 4. You mean, Killer Bee is the worst opponent Pain could face. How would Hungry Realm absorb the 8-Tailed Blast? Did you see the size of that thing? Asura's missiles and Human's strength will do nothing to someone protected by the shroud of a Tailed Beast.


That's where Preta comes in. If Demon can rip through Sage Mode like butter, I don't place great odds in the chances of of the shroud. Not only that, but Preta just needs a moment of contact to drain it away....not even full contact.
And look at the databook entry. Preta absorbs *ALL chakra based techniques. Regardless of power or chakra type. When it touched his barrier, it's sucked up




			And why the hell do you think Hashirama never used them in battle? How else did he beat Madara? Why else would he keep Bijuu, other than for battle? And why else did Orochimaru prize his Mokuton skills so much, other than for controlling them for combat?
		
Click to expand...

In the war, before he died, Hashirama gave them out. There's no proof or evidence saying Hashirama ended up surviving the Valley of the End for very long and as Tobirama became Hokage almost immediately thereafter, it stands to reason Hashirama had died of his wounds*


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

lol People beleive that Shodai didn't use bijuu in the final fight


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> lol People beleive that Shodai didn't use bijuu in the final fight


Because there is a high chance that he already distributed the Bijuu all over the world. The Shodai used his Bijuu Surpressing Jutsu to subdue the Kyubi.


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> lol People beleive that Shodai didn't use bijuu in the final fight



Hashirama gave all of the Bijuu to other countries, save the Kyuubi. Madara had the Kyuubi under his control, so what Bijuu do you think he used?


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

Chronology is an issue. In reality, Mokuton>The KYuubi. Hashirama likely restrained it, then proceeded to fight Madara


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

There is not that Hashirama gave the bijuu before the fight.
Even Minato who is more skilled than Hashirama couldn't defeat Madara and 9tails.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

Actually, he did just that. Madara fled and the Kyuubi was sealed


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, Minato did beat the Kyuubi by sealing it, causing Madara to flee.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

Might not have been in that order, but same basic idea


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

Right, technically the Kyuubi was defeated in that fight, and with his main source of power gone, Madara was defeated as well.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

Just saying Madara might've hightailed it outta there when Minato fought him...Minato may've had to beat him, then seal the Kyuubi


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

He probably did defeat him first. Either way he lost.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

Minato said that Madara saw everything that he did,more likely  he was beaten and than he sealed the fox.

But I don't believe Madara's intention was to destroy Konoha when he unleashed the Fox. It was all done to frame Uchiha. If Madara was actually serious about destroying Konoha, he should have attacked himself with the Fox (he is one of the strongest of all time and can control the Fox and utilize it more effectively:  ), had the Mist village invade as well, and used Akatsuki ninjas.


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Minato said that Madara saw everything that he did,more likely  he was beaten and than he sealed the fox.
> 
> But I don't believe Madara's intention was to destroy Konoha when he unleashed the Fox. It was all done to frame Uchiha. If Madara was actually serious about destroying Konoha, he should have attacked himself with the Fox (he is one of the strongest of all time and can control the Fox and utilize it more effectively:  ), had the Mist village invade as well, and used Akatsuki ninjas.



I think we can conclude his intentions were to kill. He stated himself that he wanted revenge. He was serious, but was stopped by Minato before he could do more damage. If Minato wasn't there, do you really think Madara would cease attacking and just leave?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> I think we can conclude his intentions were to kill. He stated himself that he wanted revenge. He was serious, but was stopped by Minato before he could do more damage. If Minato wasn't there, do you really think Madara would cease attacking and just leave?



IMO Madara just wanted to frame Uchiha and start war.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

So he intended to loise his best weapon?


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

That's possible, but keep in mind Madara hated Konoha as a whole, much like Sasuke's mentality now. He got his revenge on the Uchihas by wiping them out with Itachi.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> So he intended to loise his best weapon?




Yup Because of EMS pair. As soon as Sasuke is born, and the prodigy Itachi has a brother, Madara unleashes the Fox and acts on his plan to get revenge on Uchiha, almost as if he was waiting for a Sasuke/Itachi pair to appear. Note that if Madara had actually destroyed the village using the aforementioned means, Sasuke and Itachi might actually have been killed. This explains why exactly Madara had not destroyed Konoha by that time.EMS iS as rare as the Rinnegan; the Rinnegan has appeared twice in history, and the EMS has only appeared once, but the potential has appeared twice. The reason for this is that an EMS requires two extremely talented people to be born at around the same time and in the same clan: Uchiha.


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## Judecious (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Yup Because of EMS pair. As soon as Sasuke is born, and the prodigy Itachi has a brother, Madara unleashes the Fox and acts on his plan to get revenge on Uchiha, almost as if he was waiting for a Sasuke/Itachi pair to appear. Note that if Madara had actually destroyed the village using the aforementioned means, Sasuke and Itachi might actually have been killed. This explains why exactly Madara had not destroyed Konoha by that time.EMS iS as rare as the Rinnegan; the Rinnegan has appeared twice in history, and the EMS has only appeared once, but the potential has appeared twice. The reason for this is that an EMS requires two extremely talented people to be born at around the same time and in the same clan: Uchiha.



he failed, madara is a failure just accept it. he fail to do what pain did with 1 jutsu and he tried it twice with him+kyuubi


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> he failed, madara is a failure just accept it. he fail to do what pain did with 1 jutsu and he tried it twice with him+kyuubi



Pain did it when Tsunade was hokage


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## Sakura♥ (Apr 21, 2010)

AkatsukiBoy12 said:


> 1. Sage of the Six paths
> 2. Hashirama Senju
> 3. Madara Uchiha
> 4. Tobirama Senju
> ...



sauce over b makes no sense lol


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Yup Because of EMS pair. As soon as Sasuke is born, and the prodigy Itachi has a brother, Madara unleashes the Fox and acts on his plan to get revenge on Uchiha, almost as if he was waiting for a Sasuke/Itachi pair to appear. Note that if Madara had actually destroyed the village using the aforementioned means, Sasuke and Itachi might actually have been killed. This explains why exactly Madara had not destroyed Konoha by that time.EMS iS as rare as the Rinnegan; the Rinnegan has appeared twice in history, and the EMS has only appeared once, but the potential has appeared twice. The reason for this is that an EMS requires two extremely talented people to be born at around the same time and in the same clan: Uchiha.



This is pure fan-fiction. According to the manga and Databook, he wanted to destroy Konoha, and failed. Without the Kyuubi, he couldn't weaken Konoha at all. He is shell of his former self, which is why he led Akatsuki from the shadows. He has no power.


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## Lightysnake (Apr 21, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Yup Because of EMS pair. As soon as Sasuke is born, and the prodigy Itachi has a brother, Madara unleashes the Fox and acts on his plan to get revenge on Uchiha, almost as if he was waiting for a Sasuke/Itachi pair to appear. Note that if Madara had actually destroyed the village using the aforementioned means, Sasuke and Itachi might actually have been killed. This explains why exactly Madara had not destroyed Konoha by that time.EMS iS as rare as the Rinnegan; the Rinnegan has appeared twice in history, and the EMS has only appeared once, but the potential has appeared twice. The reason for this is that an EMS requires two extremely talented people to be born at around the same time and in the same clan: Uchiha.



Righto....so, his plan banked on someone not even born yet.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 21, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Righto....so, his plan banked on someone not even born yet.



Sasuke was born.Itachi would killed Sasuke-And here is EMS.


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## Thunder (Apr 21, 2010)

What need does Madara have for an EMS user? He wants to become the host of the Juubi.


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## jakemooz (Apr 22, 2010)

Yeah a couple of things wrong with this.

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Madara Uchiha
3. Minato Namikaze
4. Hashirama Senju
5. Nagato/Pain
6. Hiruzen Sarutobi
7. Tobirama Senju
8. Itachi Uchiha
9. Naruto Uzumaki
10. Sasuke Uchiha
11. Raikage
12. Jiraiya
13. Kisame Hoshigaki
14. Killerbee
15. Orochimaru
16. Danzo
17. Kimimaro Kaguya
18. Hanzo
19. Kakuzu
20. Jugo

Move Pain to 2 and Sarutobi to 3 
Reasons- Pain has the Rinnengan- he has the combined chakra of all his bodies and can use all their techniques. If he can revive the dead I bet money he can make his body fit again. Genjutsu is futile as the Rinngengan gives birth to the Sharingan and also it is stated that the Rinngengan can learn ANY technique. (Including Kekkai Genkais)

Sarutobi- I'm talking about in peak form. Known as god among shinobi and when he fought a fully powered orochimaru at an old age he still pretty much won and would have won if the kages didn't regenerate (People don't seem to get how absurdly powerful Sarutobi probably was in his peak) I'm betting in his peak he could beat all 3 Sannin. 

Ok move Sasuke and Naruto down- Itachi let Sasuke win and he was dying. Naruto beat Pain only after Pain used up like 80% of his chakra against the rest of the village and then Naruto had to use 8 tails just to break out of a jutsu. 

Kakashi is stronger than naruto (why in the world did you put JUGO of all people before kakashi?) 

Kisame and all the Sannin go below Itachi (so 9) with Oro coming up first (I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that orochimaru is up there) 

Hanzo beat the Sannin so put him above everyone but the top 3-4ish

Kimmimarro was known to be so strong he was a threat to Sannin so put him up much higher. 

Kakashi's dad needs to be on this list.

Take Jugo off and I think we're good (add kakashi and kakashi's dad I guess take someone else off probably naruto to be honest).


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## hampson599 (Apr 23, 2010)

No no no! Danzo is SERIOUSLY underestimated.
Not including 6 path sage
First I will do it with groups of teams
1)Akatsuki (including madara, all members, not including Sasuke)
2)Kage's(dead and alive)
3)Team 7(Including Kakashi and Sasuke)
4)The Oro group (Orochimaru, Oro-Kabuto, sound 5, Experiments disincluding team hebi/hawk)
5)Three Sannin
6)All Jinchuuriki's
7)Asuma, Guy, Kurenai and Kakashi. 
8)Team Hebi/Hawk
9)number 7's students, plus the sand trio
10)The ANBU

As for Individuals I have to go further.
1)Madara
2)Pain
3)Oro-Kabuto
4)Sarutobi
5)Danzo
6)Naruto
7)Sasuke
8)Jiraiya
9)Orochimaru
10)Tsunade
11)Kakashi
12)Raikage
13)Killer Bee
14)Guy
15)Itachi
16)Gaara
17)Yamato
18)Kisame
19)Sakura
20)Shikamaru (though not the Strongest, is one of the BEST)
21)Deidara
22)Sasori
23)Kakuzu
24)Asuma
25)Hidan
26)Neji
27)Zetsu
28)Rock Lee
29)Temari
30)Anko
31)Jugo
41)Suigetsu
42)Choji
43)Kiba
44)Mizukage's Byakugan bodyguard
45)Shino
46)Small fry
47)Hinata

Anyway, There's something that REALLY Effed me off. You probably guessed it. It's oractically every girl becoming a healer at somepont. Sakura. Ino. Hinata. God, it's SO cliched. How about a male healer and a female fighter?


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 24, 2010)

Hinata can't heal btw.


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## `Monster (Apr 25, 2010)

You sexist bastards. 

1.) Tsunade
2.) Everyone else.


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## 321zigzag (Apr 25, 2010)

jakemooz said:


> Kimmimarro was known to be so strong *he was a threat to Sannin so put him up much higher. *



Never happened.

Kimimaro is not strong enough for top 20 at all anyway. 

Mind you if he was allowed ot live past that fight most likely but no.


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## Big Mom (Apr 25, 2010)

With Feats-

1) Pain
2) Sasuke
3) Naruto
4) Danzo
5) Itachi
6) Orochimaru
7) Kisame
8) Killer Bee
9) Jiraiya
10) Tsunade
11/12) Deidara-Gaara
13) Sasori
14) Kakuzu
15) Kakashi
16) kabuto
17) Gai
18) Hidan
19) Asuma
20) Hiruzen Sarutobi


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## 321zigzag (Apr 25, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> With Feats-
> 
> 1) Pain
> 2) Sasuke
> ...



I believe you ranked Danzo that high not just because of Izanagi but because of his eye?


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## Big Mom (Apr 25, 2010)

321zigzag said:


> I believe you ranked Danzo that high not just because of Izanagi but because of his eye?



Izanagi yes but Shisui's eye has not provided very much feats in battle so no. But Danzo had shown some sick as crap and deserved that postition.


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## 321zigzag (Apr 25, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Izanagi yes but Shisui's eye has not provided very much feats in battle so no. But Danzo had shown some sick as crap and deserved that postition.



Oh ok. I see.


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## daschysta (Apr 27, 2010)

I'm not including riduko/ his sons/ people we haven't seen/ had powers enumerated

Tier 1.
Madara Uchiha, Pein/nagato, Hashirama, Hiruzen sarutobi prime, minato

Tier 2.
Itachi, Kisame, Kakashi, killerbee, naruto, sasuke, The sannin, Raikage, kabuto

Tier 3.
The rest of akatsuki, gai and the other kages sans raikage

Tier 4. 

The other elite jounin/ konoha clan chiefs

In actual order

1. Pein 
2. Prime Sarutobi
3. Hashirama
4. Madara
5. Minato
6. Itachi
7. Naruto
8. Sasuke
9. Orochimaru
10. Jiraiya
11. Kakashi/ kabuto
12. Killerbee
13. Raikage
14. Kisame
15. Tsuchikage
16. Gai
17. Sasori
18. Kakuzu
19. Deidara
20. Gaara


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## Thunder (Apr 27, 2010)

daschysta said:


> I'm not including riduko/ his sons/ people we haven't seen/ had powers enumerated
> 
> Tier 1.
> Madara Uchiha, Pein/nagato, Hashirama, Hiruzen sarutobi prime, minato
> ...



Interesting list. I think you put Kakashi too high though along with Gai.


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## Jodyjoe the great (Apr 27, 2010)

WHAT the tiers really look like considering what we know.


Tier 1.

THE SAGE OF SIX PATHS

Tier 2.
Madara Uchiha,Hashirama.

Tier 3.

Itachi,minato,Pein/nagato.

Tier 4. 

naruto, sasuke,kabuto. FOR NOW

Tier 5.

killerbee, The sannin, Raikage, The rest of akatsuki.

Tier 6.

The other elite jounin/ konoha clan chiefs.


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## Judecious (Apr 27, 2010)

Jodyjoe the great said:


> WHAT the tiers really look like considering what we know.
> 
> 
> Tier 1.
> ...



really itachi on pains and minato tier, plus naruto and sasuke have surpass itachi


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 27, 2010)

Tier 1 - Senju Hashirama, Uchiha Madara

Tier 2 - Yakushi Kabuto, Killer Bee

Tier 3 - Uzumaki Naruto, Uchiha Sasuke, Rikudou Pain, Namikaze Minato, Shimura Danzo, 4th Raikage

Tier 4 - Uchiha Itachi, Hoshigaki Kisame

Tier 5 - Jiraiya, Orochimaru, Hatake Kakashi, Kazekage Gaara, Deidara, Akasuna no Sasori

Tier 6 - Kakuzu, Sarutobi Hiruzen (Prime)

Tier 7 - Tsunade, Terumi Mei, Sandaime Kazekage

Tier 8 - Hidan, Konan, Maito Gai, Kaguya Kimimaro, Nara Shikamaru, Haruno Sakura


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 27, 2010)

Where is Fugaku?


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## Judecious (Apr 27, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Where is Fugaku?



he is fodder


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## Judecious (Apr 27, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Tier 1 - Senju Hashirama, Uchiha Madara
> 
> Tier 2 - Yakushi Kabuto, Killer Bee
> 
> ...



why is killer bee higher than pain(he would kick bee's ass) or minato and kisame being higher than jiraia is kinda of a joke.

i swear people underrate jiraiya


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## Big Mom (Apr 27, 2010)

Tier 1- Hashirama, Hiruzen, Madara, Tobirama, Onoki

Tier 2- Nagato, Hiruko(movie), Hanzo, 3rd Kazekage, Minato

Tier 3- Itachi, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Kisame, Danzo, White Fang

Tier 4- Sasori, Deidara, Killer Bee, Raikage, Naruto, Sasuke, Konan

Tier 5- Gaara, Tsunade, Kakuzu, Kabuto

Tier 6- Kakashi, Gai, Hidan


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## Judecious (Apr 27, 2010)

Tier 1- Hashirama, Madara, minato, nagato, Kabuto(edo tensei)

Tier 2- Hanzo, tobirama, hiruzen

Tier 3- Sasuke, Naruto, Jiraiya, Itachi, Orochimaru, Danzo, Killer Bee

Tier 4- Sasori, Tsunade, Deidara, Raikage, kisame, Kakashi, Kakuzu, Gaara

Tier 5-Konan, Chiyo, Hidan, Gai, Yamato, Asuma


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## Big Mom (Apr 27, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> Tier 1- Hashirama, Madara, minato, nagato, Kabuto(edo tensei)
> 
> Tier 2- Hanzo, tobirama, hiruzen
> 
> ...



May I hear your explanation for the placement of these people?


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## Afro Kid (Apr 27, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> Tier 1- Hashirama, Madara, minato, nagato, Kabuto(edo tensei)
> 
> Tier 2- Hanzo, tobirama, hiruzen
> 
> ...



:/ why is Kisame not on tier 3?


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## Judecious (Apr 27, 2010)

Afro Kid said:


> :/ why is Kisame not on tier 3?



everyone in tier 3 could beat him


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 28, 2010)

Tier 1
-Uchiha Madara
-Hashirama Senju 

Tier 2
-Kabuto Yakushi
-Itachi Uchiha 
-Minato Namikaze
-White Fang
-Nagato 

Tier 3
-Sasuke Uchiha
-Naruto Uzumaki
-Hanzou the Salamander 
-Orochimaru
-Hiruzen Sarutobi
-Jiraiya
-Raikage
-Killer Bee

Tier 4
-Tobirama Senju 
-Danzou
-Kisame Hoshigaki
-Akasuna no Sasori 
-Izuna Uchiha
-Sandaime Kazekage

Tier 5
-Yagura
-Might Guy
-Kakuzu

Tier 6
-Tsunade
-Deidara
-Kazekage Gaara
-Kakashi Hatake

Tier 7
-Ōnoki
-Mei Terumī
-Shisui Uchiha
-Chiyo
-Konan
-Zetsu
-Kimimaro
-Zabuza
-Shikamaru


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## Zaelapolopollo (Apr 28, 2010)

lol at White Fang above Pein.

I mean, come on. The former is a total unknown and the latter did more damage than any other ninja has shown.


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## Judecious (Apr 28, 2010)

A Tout le Monde said:


> lol at White Fang above Pein.
> 
> I mean, come on. The former is a total unknown and the latter did more damage than any other ninja has shown.



what's more funny is that he put itachi on the same lvl as minato and nagato


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## sasuke uciha boy (Apr 28, 2010)

A Tout le Monde said:


> lol at White Fang above Pein.
> 
> I mean, come on. The former is a total unknown and the latter did more damage than any other ninja has shown.



I never said that he is above Nagato they are just in same Tier.

He was one of the most powerful and most feared shinobis in that time above Minato and below Hiruzen.He was so powerful that only he can kill himself lol



naruto the best said:


> what's more funny is that he put itachi on the same lvl as minato and nagato



ok....


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 28, 2010)

When people begin putting the 2nd Hokage, who was weaker than a 16-year old or so Hiruzen, and was beaten by the nameless and featless Kinkaku Force, above Naruto, Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru, then you know something's wrong.

He was strong, but not much more so than the likes of Deidara and Kakuzu. He was most probably the weakest Hokage - even below Tsunade.


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## Turrin (Apr 28, 2010)

*Tier 0*
Rikudo-Sannin(Jyuubi Jinchuriki)

*Tier 1*
Madara(Prime)
Shodai(With Multiple Bijuu)
Rikudo-Sannin

*Tier 2*
Madara(Current)
Minato
Nagato
Killer Bee
Kabuto

*Tier 3*
Naruto
Sasuke
Jiraiya
Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
Sasori
Nindaime
Danzo
Hanzo
Sarutobi(Prime)

*Tier 4*
Raikage
Garaa
Mei 
Onoki
Dedaria 
Kazuku
Tsunade
Kakashi 
Gai
Sarutobi(Old)

*Tier 5 *
Hidan
Konan
Yamato
Fuu
Darui
Torune
C
Zabuza

*Tier 6*
Asuma
Kurunia 
Other Kage Guards
Temari
Kankuro
Neiji
Rock Lee
Shikkamaru
Kimmimaru
Anko
Inoichi
Chouza
Shikaku
Shino

*Tier 7*
Sakura
Shizune
Chouji
Kiba
Hinata
Ibiki
Iruka
Kidomaru
Sakon/Ukon
Tayuya
Jirobu

*Tier 8*
Tenten
Ino
|
|
Everyone else


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## Big Mom (Apr 28, 2010)

So where would you place these characters- Hiruko(movie), White Fang,  and Hanzo?



Wind Master- tobirama is still strong. He was referred to as the strongest water user, even when the likes of kisame exist. Tsunade wouod be trashed cause she has no defense against his long ranged ninjutsu. Naruto referred to him as the best combator ever.


Also, Tobirama sacrificed himself, and don't forget, hashirama died in that same war.


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## Turrin (Apr 28, 2010)

> So where would you place these characters- Hiruko(movie), White Fang, and Hanzo?


Added Hanzo. There really is too little known about White Fang for me to place him, but he would probably fall into Tier 3 - Tier 4 from his hype; Maybe Tier 2 but that would be quite ridiculous if he turned out to be that strong.

I don't like rating Fillians so Hiroku i doubt i will rank even after i get around to seeing the movie.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 28, 2010)

Hanzou and the White Fang have very little feats, so I wouldn't add them into any list. But from hype, I'd guess they'd be hovering around Top Tier.

Hiruko, from what I saw would definitely be up there. Being able to go really fast, absorb any technique, turn his skin into steal, reverse techniques and a few other things.


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## Big Mom (Apr 28, 2010)

So in your opinion AS, what Tier would he be in?


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 28, 2010)

Tier 1 or 2 probably.


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## jakemooz (Apr 29, 2010)

> When people begin putting the 2nd Hokage, who was weaker than a 16-year old or so Hiruzen, and was beaten by the nameless and featless Kinkaku Force, above Naruto, Itachi, Jiraiya and Orochimaru, then you know something's wrong.
> 
> He was strong, but not much more so than the likes of Deidara and Kakuzu. He was most probably the weakest Hokage - even below Tsunade.



First of all, Hiruzen was a beast, don't undermine someone's strength by saying they are weaker than Hiruzen (it's like saying madara sucks because he can't touch the sage of 6 paths or something) 
You are completely speculating with his power. The "featless and nameless" group of trackers were master bounty hunters with power capable of having the 2nd hokage, hiruzen, danzou, an uchia, and the 2 elders not even considering fighting because they knew they would die. I don't feel you're considering this at all.



> Tier 0
> Rikudo-Sannin(Jyuubi Jinchuriki)
> 
> Tier 1
> ...



Why would madara and the 1st go above someone who beat the 10 tails and invented ninjutsu? I think some slight fanboyism is misguiding you a little. Nagato and Hiruzen prime need to go to tier one, nagato is obvious, hiruzen is more subtle yet he has a lot of hype and the fact that he was regarded as the god of shinobi and the fact that he was praised by the 1st and 2nd as a true prodigy needs to be considered. (he was probably stronger than either of them had been)

Sarutobi old could definitely beat gai, and raikage ate sasuke for breakfast. Itachi was "playing" with sasuke (he was controlling the battle completely) while dying so he needs to go above naruto and sasuke. the first beat prime madara...


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2010)

> Why would madara and the 1st go above someone who beat the 10 tails and invented ninjutsu? I think some slight fanboyism is misguiding you a little. Nagato and Hiruzen prime need to go to tier one, nagato is obvious, hiruzen is more subtle yet he has a lot of hype and the fact that he was regarded as the god of shinobi and the fact that he was praised by the 1st and 2nd as a true prodigy needs to be considered. (he was probably stronger than either of them had been)
> 
> Sarutobi old could definitely beat gai, and raikage ate sasuke for breakfast. Itachi was "playing" with sasuke (he was controlling the battle completely) while dying so he needs to go above naruto and sasuke. the first beat prime madara...


Before i respond to these things; First let me make it clear that some one being in the same tier is the same as saying they are roughly equal. So i'm not saying Shodai and Madara are stronger then Rikudo


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## Lightysnake (Apr 30, 2010)

Deidara at least should be upped to tier 3


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## DarkRasengan (Apr 30, 2010)

Tier 1- Tobi, minato, nagato, Kabuto(edo tensei)

Tier 2- Killerbee, Jiraiya, Itachi

Tier 3- Raikage, Naruto, Sasuke, Orochimaru, Danzo, Kisame

Tier 4- Sasori, Tsunade, Deidara, Kakashi, Kakuzu, Gaara

Tier 5-Konan, Chiyo, Hidan, Gai, Yamato, Asuma


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## Lightysnake (Apr 30, 2010)

Query: Why is Kisame ranked above Sasori and Deidara?


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2010)

> Deidara at least should be upped to tier 3


I think everyone in tier 3 could beat Dedaria thought


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## Lightysnake (Apr 30, 2010)

And he could beat a good deal of them as well. It's not that clear cut. He and Sasori are roughly equals, he could certainly kill Orochimaru and Kisame, if he used C4 off the bat, Itachi'd die and that's IC for him...him vs. Jiraiya'd be a decent fight as well. 

Yes, many of them can beat him. The reverse is true as well


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## Smiley (Apr 30, 2010)

Some People Under Estimate Kisame, Who Has The Most Chakra In The Akatsuki. He's Stronger Than KB.

Also The 2nd Hokage Was Not At All Week. Firstly He Was Apart Of The Senju Clan Which Automatically Tells Us That He Must Of Been Strong.

''Tobirama was primarily known for his mastery of Water Release jutsu, being able to make use of powerful water style jutsu in areas where there were no bodies of water, making him known to be the greatest water manipulator that ever existed. He could manipulate it to form projectiles or tentacles, and could even perform the Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique with only one hand seal (use of the jutsu normally requiring 44 hand seals).''

1 Hand Seal While Others Need 44 To Use Water Dragon Bullet, Come On.


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## jakemooz (Apr 30, 2010)

> Before i respond to these things; First let me make it clear that some one being in the same tier is the same as saying they are roughly equal. So i'm not saying Shodai and Madara are stronger then Rikudo



oh, i still feel the sage needs to go above them (like in another tier) and Prime Hiruzen was known as the strongest kage. Also the reason the first might've won the fight was because his natural ability allowed him to control the tailed beasts : in short, he was madara's worst matchup


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (May 1, 2010)

Naruto soon will be he strongest 
Kyubi Control + Sage + Rasenshuriken + Super Technique Itachi gave him + Kagebushino + Rasengan...


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## Atlantic Storm (May 1, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> Some People Under Estimate Kisame, Who Has The Most Chakra In The Akatsuki. He's Stronger Than KB.



It wasn't 100% Kisame and Killer Bee was holding back. It's hard to see which one is stronger when neither has gone "all out". I suspect that Kisame is the strongest, due to match ups.



> Also The 2nd Hokage Was Not At All Week. Firstly He Was Apart Of The Senju Clan Which Automatically Tells Us That He Must Of Been Strong.



Being from the Senju Clan doesn't mean your strong. 



> ''Tobirama was primarily known for his mastery of Water Release jutsu, being able to make use of powerful water style jutsu in areas where there were no bodies of water, making him known to be the greatest water manipulator that ever existed. He could manipulate it to form projectiles or tentacles, and could even perform the Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique with only one hand seal (use of the jutsu normally requiring 44 hand seals).''



You realize that everyone that uses Suitons can now do it without a source in P2, right? Doing a Suiton without a source isn't amazing anymore.



> 1 Hand Seal While Others Need 44 To Use Water Dragon Bullet, Come On.



So? That just means he's skillful at the jutsu. Anyone with a decent Doton, reactions, durability or defensive jutsu would be able to defend against that.


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

A list composed purely of characters who from whom we have major on-panel feats:

1. The Pain Rikudo
2. Killer Bee
3. Itachi Uchiha
4. Orochimaru (with Edo Tensei)
5. Jiraiya
6. Naruto Uzumaki
7. Kisame Hoshigaki
8. Taka Sasuke
9. Danzo Shimura
10. A (Raikage)
11. Gaara
12. Akasuna no Sasori
13. Kakashi Hatake
14. Deidara
15. Kakuzu
16. Tsunade
17. Hiruzen Sarutobi
18. Konan
19. Maito Gai
20. Hidan

There problem with these sorts of lists is that calculating character strength is far from an exact science, and A > B > C logic does not apply in Naruto. For example, I believe that Kisame would beat Killer Bee in a rematch, but would be defeated by Jiraiya (who I ranked lower than Killer Bee). Another example is that I believe Tsunade might be able to defeat Deidara in combat, but would probably fail to do the same to Kakuzu (who Deidara would defeat). So, all in all, I ranked these characters according to the principle of overall battle effectiveness.


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## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Itachi, Orochimarui, Kisame, Gaara and Kakashi are too high there.


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

I can see why you'd say Itachi is overrated (after all, if his Genjutsu is broken, he doesn't have all that much in his arsenal), but Orochimaru, Kisame, Gaara, and Kakashi? Why do you think they deserve lower placements? Orochimaru, in particular, would be almost unbeatable if he were to use Edo Tensei to its full potential. In fact, I'm not sure if even Pain could beat Orochimaru +, say, Zombie Itachi and Jiraiya.


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## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Edo Tensei is hardly part of his normal moveset as opposed to Kabuto. It's a requiring prep time, it's easy to stop if you know it's coming via attacking the coffins and the zombies have zero sense of self preservation which doesn't help when Pain can also summon a demonic statue with soul sucking dragons.

Gaara? Gaara lost to Deidara pretty hard when Deidara had to fight not to kill, which limits his fighting style. The c3 trick wasn't even necessary as that was to just set up Deidara using a clay bird to force Gaara to guard so Deidara could blow up the bombs hidden in the sand. If Deidara were trying to kill and came fully stocked, Gaara would've stood no chance. He's simply weaker than a good deal of akatsuki.

Kisame, likewise, has far less destructive power and practically than Deidara and Sasori, who are basically equal more or less. He's simply tailor made against Jinchuuriki, but his water prison is worthless against a flyer and a puppet master who doesn't breath. Kisame's strong, but people overrate him from his fight with Bee. He's not stronger than a lot of his Akatsuki compatriots and wouldn't be nearly as effective against them as he would be against a Jinchuuriki 

Likewise, Kakashi doesn't pack the same power those guys do. He can't really use Kamui without messinghimself up severely.


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Edo Tensei is hardly part of his normal moveset as opposed to Kabuto. It's a requiring prep time, it's easy to stop if you know it's coming via attacking the coffins and the zombies have zero sense of self preservation which doesn't help when Pain can also summon a demonic statue with soul sucking dragons.



I agree, and that's why I explicitly stated that Orochimaru _with Edo Tensei_ is the fourth strongest shinobi in the manga. In his base form, he would also receive a high placement, but it's ultimately Edo Tensei that really gives him the edge.

There is no opponent in the manga (with the exception of maybe Madara) who would not be killed by Gedo Mazo. Really, there's also a reason I placed Pain as the best shinobi in the manga, period. 



Lightysnake said:


> Gaara? Gaara lost to Deidara pretty hard when Deidara had to fight not to kill, which limits his fighting style. The c3 trick wasn't even necessary as that was to just set up Deidara using a clay bird to force Gaara to guard so Deidara could blow up the bombs hidden in the sand. If Deidara were trying to kill and came fully stocked, Gaara would've stood no chance. He's simply weaker than a good deal of akatsuki.



I'm of the opinion that Deidara would take Gaara in a rematch. However, there's because Deidara's fighting style is especially well-suited to battling Gaara; the vast majority of opponents would simply be killed by his sand-tsunami, and would likely fail to penetrate his ultimate defense. I'd wager that Gaara, at his strongest, could defeat the vast majority of individuals in the manga. In the desert, he's also one of the two opponents (the other being Killer Bee) who would utterly push Pain to the edge without any notable preparation or knowledge. 



Lightysnake said:


> Kisame, likewise, has far less destructive power and practically than Deidara and Sasori, who are basically equal more or less. He's simply tailor made against Jinchuuriki, but his water prison is worthless against a flyer and a puppet master who doesn't breath. Kisame's strong, but people overrate him from his fight with Bee. He's not stronger than a lot of his Akatsuki compatriots and wouldn't be nearly as effective against them as he would be against a Jinchuuriki



The puppet master can still be crushed by water, and Kisame will gain a tactical advantage against him in the water, too. Flying is rather difficult while being trapped in a water prison, don't you think? Especially considering Kisame can move incredibly fast within it. Oh, and Samehada can absorb the chakra strings, too.

And have you seen the size of that thing? Unless Deidara's going to be hundreds of meters up in the sky, he will be captured in it, spelling doom for him. And, OC, he doesn't fly all that high against grounded opponents.



Lightysnake said:


> Likewise, Kakashi doesn't pack the same power those guys do. He can't really use Kamui without messinghimself up severely.



Kakashi is:

1. The second smartest fighter in the manga (after Shikamaru).

2. A skilled user of the Sharingan.

3. A superb user of Ninjutsu, with one of the largest arsenals in the manga.

4. An utter sniper with Kamui. There are very, very few opponents who can counter a Kamui to the head.


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## daschysta (May 1, 2010)

Yeah destructive power isn't everything. 

A simple Raikagebunshin to raikiri/ kamui combo is something that would kill most people in the manga. Bigger isn/t always better than practical and efficient.

Deidara would just be sniped from the sky with his massively improved kamui.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 1, 2010)

It's not really that simple, since it's going to be hard using Kamui on Deidara when he'll be bombarding you with C1s and C2s. He could quite easily get out of Kamui's range too.


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

I agree. Deidara's precisely _not_ the type of opponent to use Kamui on.

The best target for Kamui is a close-ranged combatant with a relatively linear fighting style, like Gai, Raikage, and Tsunade.


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## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> I agree, and that's why I explicitly stated that Orochimaru _with Edo Tensei_ is the fourth strongest shinobi in the manga. In his base form, he would also receive a high placement, but it's ultimately Edo Tensei that really gives him the edge.
> 
> There is no opponent in the manga (with the exception of maybe Madara) who would not be killed by Gedo Mazo. Really, there's also a reason I placed Pain as the best shinobi in the manga, period.


the Edo Tensei isn't invincible, however, and with Kabuto, we're bound to see that. The thing is, ET isn't part of his normal moveset as opposed to Kabuto.





> I'm of the opinion that Deidara would take Gaara in a rematch. However, there's because Deidara's fighting style is especially well-suited to battling Gaara; the vast majority of opponents would simply be killed by his sand-tsunami, and would likely fail to penetrate his ultimate defense. I'd wager that Gaara, at his strongest, could defeat the vast majority of individuals in the manga. In the desert, he's also one of the two opponents (the other being Killer Bee) who would utterly push Pain to the edge without any notable preparation or knowledge.


Yes, but Sasori and Deidara aren't most opponents. Deidara's so well built to fighting Gaara and neutral environments considered where Gaara doesn't have a massive advantage? Deidara's moves are quite a bit more destructive and he has one of the best KOs in the manga




> The puppet master can still be crushed by water, and Kisame will gain a tactical advantage against him in the water, too. Flying is rather difficult while being trapped in a water prison, don't you think? Especially considering Kisame can move incredibly fast within it. Oh, and Samehada can absorb the chakra strings, too.


That's the problem. Deidara isn't grounded to BE trapped. Deidara moves wicked fast on his bird and in the air,  he stands little chance of being trapped. he has an elemental advantage and has a move that will kill Kisame right off if he chooses. And Kisame has to get to the chakra strings...then Sasori can replace them.



> And have you seen the size of that thing? Unless Deidara's going to be hundreds of meters up in the sky, he will be captured in it, spelling doom for him. And, OC, he doesn't fly all that high against grounded opponents.


If Kisame starts on the ground with Deidara in the air and tries the water prison, then it does have to actually rise and cover them. Deidara is fast enough to escape that. Plus, Kisame doesn't really use it save when he's capturing someone. Even allowing for it, if that happens, Deidara'll break out much higher level dotons or explosions, which the water prison will fail against




> Kakashi is:
> 
> 1. The second smartest fighter in the manga (after Shikamaru).


Intelligence doesn't equate to power. It equates to careful application of abilities. 



> 2. A skilled user of the Sharingan.
> 
> 3. A superb user of Ninjutsu, with one of the largest arsenals in the manga.
> 
> 4. An utter sniper with Kamui. There are very, very few opponents who can counter a Kamui to the head.



I'm not debating the former two, don't get me wrong. However, Sasori and Deidara are also superb users of ninjutsu and have extremely effective and dangerous attacks. And excepting Kamui, their attacks are more effective. Plus, Kakashi takes a hit from being largely unable to use it in the heat of battle given what Deidara and Sasori can rain down on him and his poor stamina in comparison


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> the Edo Tensei isn't invincible, however, and with Kabuto, we're bound to see that. The thing is, ET isn't part of his normal moveset as opposed to Kabuto.



Again, that's why I specifically noted that Orochimaru is particularly strong _with Edo Tensei_: because it's not part of his ordinary moveset. It would be like naming "Kyuubi Naruto"- after all, KN is a special mode which Naruto cannot access at will as of yet, and therefore should be specifically noted. The Hachibi, however, is an ordinary part of Killer Bee's moveset, which is why I wouldn't name the second strongest shinobi in the manga as "Hachibi Killer Bee". See now? Orochimaru without Edo Tensei, which is really the "ordinary" Orochimaru, would probably take somewhere between 6th-8th place. 






Lightysnake said:


> Yes, but Sasori and Deidara aren't most opponents. Deidara's so well built to fighting Gaara and neutral environments considered where Gaara doesn't have a massive advantage? Deidara's moves are quite a bit more destructive and he has one of the best KOs in the manga



Come to think of it, it's possible I should have given Deidara a higher spot. But then again, I'll continue to stick by what I said: Deidara was the perfect opponent to battle Gaara. How would Sasori, for example, defeat Gaara? Gaara can simply rain down attacks on him, and ignore all he has to throw back with the ultimate defense. 





Lightysnake said:


> That's the problem. Deidara isn't grounded to BE trapped. Deidara moves wicked fast on his bird and in the air,  he stands little chance of being trapped. he has an elemental advantage and has a move that will kill Kisame right off if he chooses. And Kisame has to get to the chakra strings...then Sasori can replace them.



Oh shit... I forgot that Doton > Suiton. If so, it's possible that Deidara will be able to escape the water prison. But if he can't disperse it (which he probably won't without anything short of C3), he can be outsped and defeated by shark mode Kisame. I think you'd agree that Kisame's speed in the water > Deidara's in it, right?

How would Sasori react in time to replace his stings? Imagine if Kisame fought Sandaime Kazekage. If Sasori loses control of him for even a second, Kisame gets a distinct opening. And in a high-level shinobi battle, a brief opening is all that's necessary in order to bring down your opponent, especially if you have the large arsenal of Kisame. Hell, it's also possible that Kisame could destroy Sasori's entire puppet army with a single large Suiton. I simply can't see Sasori beating him.




Lightysnake said:


> If Kisame starts on the ground with Deidara in the air and tries the water prison, then it does have to actually rise and cover them. Deidara is fast enough to escape that. Plus, Kisame doesn't really use it save when he's capturing someone. Even allowing for it, if that happens, Deidara'll break out much higher level dotons or explosions, which the water prison will fail against



Right, see above. 





Lightysnake said:


> Intelligence doesn't equate to power. It equates to careful application of abilities.



Intelligence has everything to do with power. What's you definition of power? Mine is, within the context of this thread, one's combat effectiveness. Kakashi's intelligence is an integral part of his combat effectiveness.





Lightysnake said:


> I'm not debating the former two, don't get me wrong. However, Sasori and Deidara are also superb users of ninjutsu and have extremely effective and dangerous attacks. And excepting Kamui, their attacks are more effective. Plus, Kakashi takes a hit from being largely unable to use it in the heat of battle given what Deidara and Sasori can rain down on him and his poor stamina in comparison



Kakashi's stamina is no longer piss poor, but I see your point. But against Deidara, he still possesses various advantages: The Sharingan, his combat smarts, Raiton Affinity, considerable speed, array of long-ranged attacks surpassing that of Hebi Sasuke, etc, etc, etc.


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## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> Again, that's why I specifically noted that Orochimaru is particularly strong _with Edo Tensei_: because it's not part of his ordinary moveset. It would be like naming "Kyuubi Naruto"- after all, KN is a special mode which Naruto cannot access at will as of yet, and therefore should be specifically noted. The Hachibi, however, is an ordinary part of Killer Bee's moveset, which is why I wouldn't name the second strongest shinobi in the manga as "Hachibi Killer Bee". See now? Orochimaru without Edo Tensei, which is really the "ordinary" Orochimaru, would probably take somewhere between 6th-8th place.


Yes, but we should look at the ordinary Orochimaru specifically because Edo Tensei isn't his usual move. If Kabuto makes it his normal move set then he might even surpass Pain







> Come to think of it, it's possible I should have given Deidara a higher spot. But then again, I'll continue to stick by what I said: Deidara was the perfect opponent to battle Gaara. How would Sasori, for example, defeat Gaara? Gaara can simply rain down attacks on him, and ignore all he has to throw back with the ultimate defense.


Deidara was the perfect opponent there, but he also had to hold back. Sasori on the other hand, has iron sand...there's a reason it's the strongest weapon of Suna and not Shukaku. It rips through bedrock like paper. gaara's sand isn't impenetrable.






> Oh shit... I forgot that Doton > Suiton. If so, it's possible that Deidara will be able to escape the water prison. But if he can't disperse it (which he probably won't without anything short of C3), he can be outsped and defeated by shark mode Kisame. I think you'd agree that Kisame's speed in the water > Deidara's in it, right?


In the water being key words. Deidara can still hurt him with C2 or displace the water and propel himself. As shown when he fought the Sanbi, Deidara can make bombs that operate just fine underwater and he's incredibly fast on a bird so he could keep ahead



> How would Sasori react in time to replace his stings? Imagine if Kisame fought Sandaime Kazekage. If Sasori loses control of him for even a second, Kisame gets a distinct opening. And in a high-level shinobi battle, a brief opening is all that's necessary in order to bring down your opponent, especially if you have the large arsenal of Kisame. Hell, it's also possible that Kisame could destroy Sasori's entire puppet army with a single large Suiton. I simply can't see Sasori beating him.


It's not very hard. Sasori just needs to really gesture. Sasori is fast and can dodge as well. . Plus, Kisame has to get close when Sasori is violently spamming Satetsu all over. And all Sasori needs is a scratch





> Right, see above.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welll, defining it that way, then yes, but that should skew Shikamaru up to much higher






> Kakashi's stamina is no longer piss poor, but I see your point. But against Deidara, he still possesses various advantages: The Sharingan, his combat smarts, Raiton Affinity, considerable speed, array of long-ranged attacks surpassing that of Hebi Sasuke, etc, etc, etc.



His stamina stat hasn't really changed and he's admitted to Naruto he has naturally low chakra. he has some serious disadvantages:
- His speed isn't greater than Deidara's. Deidara was fully capable of keeping ahead of him before and Kyuubi Naruto till Kamui came out. His long range attacks mostly don't involve Raiton save the wolf and Deidara's got much more chakra than Kakashi does so he can affording to waste bombs. Kakashi can manage six Raikiris.  akashi doesn't really have Sasuke's long distance attacks and he ca only manage so many Raitons...plus C2 don't seem susceptible to the weakness are were faster than CS 2 Sasuke...plus exploding bunshins...plus, Kakashi's one and only defense against C4 is to fry himself which is a bad strategy if Deidara can still fight.

Really, they're on par.


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yes, but we should look at the ordinary Orochimaru specifically because Edo Tensei isn't his usual move. If Kabuto makes it his normal move set then he might even surpass Pain



Possibly. But we don't have solid feats from Kabuto as of yet, and I said that I'll only name shinobi from whom we have major feats in my list. Otherwise, Rikudo Sennin would've gotten the top spot, Hashirama the second, and Madara the third. 








Lightysnake said:


> Deidara was the perfect opponent there, but he also had to hold back. Sasori on the other hand, has iron sand...there's a reason it's the strongest weapon of Suna and not Shukaku. It rips through bedrock like paper. gaara's sand isn't impenetrable.



1. Do you really think the strongest Kage in Suna history would have been taken out by Sakura (with relatively minor help from Chiyo)? It's quite clear that the puppet did not contain as much power as the original.

2. Gaara's sand is not impenetrable, but it's damn hard to get through. Amaterasu failed to do it, C1 failed to do it, freakin' C3 failed to do it: I have doubts Iron Sand will be able to do it (though, if it scratches Gaara, he's finished). On second thought, I think I'll replace Gaara's and Sasori's positions on my list. 







Lightysnake said:


> In the water being key words. Deidara can still hurt him with C2 or displace the water and propel himself. As shown when he fought the Sanbi, Deidara can make bombs that operate just fine underwater and he's incredibly fast on a bird so he could keep ahead



Possibly. But then again, that would be a relative exception- another example of one's fighting style being perfectly suited to combating another's. 




Lightysnake said:


> It's not very hard. Sasori just needs to really gesture. Sasori is fast and can dodge as well. . Plus, Kisame has to get close when Sasori is violently spamming Satetsu all over. And all Sasori needs is a scratch



One slash from Kisame and Sasori's puppets can be disabled. Plus, they can be handled with large-scale Suitons. I doubt Sasori could so much as scratch Kisame if his control of his puppets is constantly being interrupted, even if he can reclaim control of them in seconds. Like I said, high-level shinobi battles are always fought close to the edge: a single mistake and you end up dead. 




Lightysnake said:


> Welll, defining it that way, then yes, but that should skew Shikamaru up to much higher



I seriously considered placing Shikamaru on my list. Overall, though, I decided that he could not take anyone on it in a fair one-on-one battle.








Lightysnake said:


> His stamina stat hasn't really changed and he's admitted to Naruto he has naturally low chakra.



When has he admitted that to Naruto? LINK OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN ().



Lightysnake said:


> he has some serious disadvantages:
> - His speed isn't greater than Deidara's. Deidara was fully capable of keeping ahead of him before and Kyuubi Naruto till Kamui came out. His long range attacks mostly don't involve Raiton save the wolf and Deidara's got much more chakra than Kakashi does so he can affording to waste bombs. Kakashi can manage six Raikiris.  akashi doesn't really have Sasuke's long distance attacks and he ca only manage so many Raitons...plus C2 don't seem susceptible to the weakness are were faster than CS 2 Sasuke...plus exploding bunshins...plus, Kakashi's one and only defense against C4 is to fry himself which is a bad strategy if Deidara can still fight.



I do recall Hebi Sasuke temporary remaining ahead of the C2 bombs, don't you? After all, if he hadn't, he would have been pulverized. And even so, Kakashi can parry the bombs using a doton wall, may diffuse them through a Raikiri, or whatever. He has plenty of counters to C2, and he certainly won't have much of a problem remaining ahead of C2. 

And by the way, Raiton Bunshin feints would be very useful in this fight. Here's an example of a potential tactic Kakashi could utilize against Deidara: Distract him with a long ranged attack (like Suiton: Suiryudan. Deidara might have the elemental advantage over it, but that doesn't mean he can simply ignore it), hit the dragon with a transformed Raiton Bunshin, and have the Raiton Bunshin detonated atop the dragon. That way, Kakashi can diffuse the dragon, and that's just one way he may bring Deidara down (he himself expressed high confidence in his abilities to battle a long-ranged opponent like Deidara, noting that he possesses various high-level Ninjutsu and is an excellent combat tactician). 

Frying himself would impair him, true, but he could dodge C4 if he's far enough from Deidara. Besides, Deidara can't really seem to fight after using something quite as large as C4, leaving him vulnerable to anything Kakashi can dish out. 



Lightysnake said:


> Really, they're on par.



I did rank them one spot next to the other.


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## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> Possibly. But we don't have solid feats from Kabuto as of yet, and I said that I'll only name shinobi from whom we have major feats in my list. Otherwise, Rikudo Sennin would've gotten the top spot, Hashirama the second, and Madara the third.


Just based on who he can summon's all









> 1. Do you really think the strongest Kage in Suna history would have been taken out by Sakura (with relatively minor help from Chiyo)? It's quite clear that the puppet did not contain as much power as the original.


The only reason it was destroyed-literally the only reasons- was Sakura had an antidote Sasori was ignorant of and Sasori got cocky and sent it out at the end instead of using the Satetsu.
Iron Sand is still monumentally strong to rip through stone like paper



> 2. Gaara's sand is not impenetrable, but it's damn hard to get through. Amaterasu failed to do it, C1 failed to do it, freakin' C3 failed to do it: I have doubts Iron Sand will be able to do it (though, if it scratches Gaara, he's finished). On second thought, I think I'll replace Gaara's and Sasori's positions on my list.


Amaterasu has no piercing power. It's just very, very hot flames. C3 failed because Gaara used an enormous desert. Satetsu has the strength, properties and power to do so.

And if you replace Gaara there, Deidara should definitely be above him as well








> Possibly. But then again, that would be a relative exception- another example of one's fighting style being perfectly suited to combating another's.


It's more than that. In general fighting styles, Kisame is suited for a specific type of opponent





> One slash from Kisame and Sasori's puppets can be disabled. Plus, they can be handled with large-scale Suitons. I doubt Sasori could so much as scratch Kisame if his control of his puppets is constantly being interrupted, even if he can reclaim control of them in seconds. Like I said, high-level shinobi battles are always fought close to the edge: a single mistake and you end up dead.


again...Kisame has to get them close. Sasori can hold the Sandaime close to him and spam iron sand. A lot.





> I seriously considered placing Shikamaru on my list. Overall, though, I decided that he could not take anyone on it in a fair one-on-one battle.


My point exactly









> When has he admitted that to Naruto? LINK OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN ().



Right here



> I do recall Hebi Sasuke temporary remaining ahead of the C2 bombs, don't you?


Yes. But Sasuke himself admitted Deidara was only playing with him there. 


> After all, if he hadn't, he would have been pulverized. And even so, Kakashi can parry the bombs using a doton wall, may diffuse them through a Raikiri, or whatever. He has plenty of counters to C2, and he certainly won't have much of a problem remaining ahead of C2.


the problem: Kakashi has a small number of Raikiris. Deidara has a ton of bombs. the Doton wall is small and certainly won't hold to such a huge explosion. The Raikiri is one thing but Sasuke noticeably didn't even bother...plus if Kakashi lunges for it, Deidara can just detonate it before he touches it. You don't need a direct hit with those explosives



> And by the way, Raiton Bunshin feints would be very useful in this fight. Here's an example of a potential tactic Kakashi could utilize against Deidara: Distract him with a long ranged attack (like Suiton: Suiryudan. Deidara might have the elemental advantage over it, but that doesn't mean he can simply ignore it), hit the dragon with a transformed Raiton Bunshin, and have the Raiton Bunshin detonated atop the dragon. That way, Kakashi can diffuse the dragon, and that's just one way he may bring Deidara down (he himself expressed high confidence in his abilities to battle a long-ranged opponent like Deidara, noting that he possesses various high-level Ninjutsu and is an excellent combat tactician).


Deidara can easily dodge it, though. I mean REALLY easily. Also...how does Kakashi get into the air without Deidara noticing? He's an incredible multi tasker and the bunshin halves Kakashi's chakra. If the chakra is diffused, that just means it can't explode. It can still fly and Deidara will just leap off and make a C1. 
Kakashi expressed confidence there because of Kamui. He fell on it immediately.
A fresh Deidara is a poor matchup for Kakashi, no less because he doesn't have much by long range and Deidara stays out of attack ranges



> Frying himself would impair him, true, but he could dodge C4 if he's far enough from Deidara. Besides, Deidara can't really seem to fight after using something quite as large as C4, leaving him vulnerable to anything Kakashi can dish out.


You can't just dodge C4 if you can't fly. The cloud is huge and covers a large radius,  and Deidara only readies it when it'll cover you. From then on you have to not rbeathe, which without knowledge is hard...and Deidara can use C1 to hem you in.
And he can't fight after C4?
He used...two of them, a C2 dragon, an entire minefield, multiple c1s and STILL had a small amount of chakra left over.
Stamina is not a problem for Deidara





> I did rank them one spot next to the other.


Well, yeah, I just think Deidara has an edge. Certainly Kisame and Gaara


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## Shinkurai (May 1, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Just based on who he can summon's all



Yes, but aside from Edo Tensei, Orochimaru also has: 

-Yamata Mode, with powerful possibly comparable to that of a Bijuu
-The best defensive arsenal in the manga
-Tanking feats that render him invulnerable to all but attacks on par with a KN4 chakra bullet
-An unpredictable and unusual fighting style
-A decent arsenal of offensive Ninjutsu
-The equivalent of Gin's Shikai from Bleach (Kusanagi)
-The ability to summon an arsenal of snakes, including a buss summon who could individually dominate both Gamabunta and Katsuyu.




Lightysnake said:


> The only reason it was destroyed-literally the only reasons- was Sakura had an antidote Sasori was ignorant of and Sasori got cocky and sent it out at the end instead of using the Satetsu.
> Iron Sand is still monumentally strong to rip through stone like paper



True, but the point is that it certainly was not quite as powerful as the original version. Iron Sand might be able to rip through rock, but it will be parried by a large barrier of sand + the ultimate defense.

Though, of course, Sasori has a serious chance to beat Gaara.




Lightysnake said:


> Amaterasu has no piercing power. It's just very, very hot flames. C3 failed because Gaara used an enormous desert. Satetsu has the strength, properties and power to do so.



Forming a wall utilizing his gourd sand ought to do the trick- after all, it did effortlessly block RS2 kick as well. It might not have any penetrating force and is a different type of attack, but it's certainly immensely powerful. The point is that Gaara's defense is superb, and that even Satetsu will have a hard time handling a mixture of sand tsunami defense + the Shukaku thingy he used against Kimimaru + ultimate defense. 



Lightysnake said:


> And if you replace Gaara there, Deidara should definitely be above him as well



Deidara himself admitted Sasori's superiority over him.




Lightysnake said:


> It's more than that. In general fighting styles, Kisame is suited for a specific type of opponent



True, but it's quite compatible against a variety of fighting styles.




Lightysnake said:


> again...Kisame has to get them close. Sasori can hold the Sandaime close to him and spam iron sand. A lot.



Kisame has the vast arsenal of Jutsu necessary to keep both Sandaime and Sasori on their toes, will be able to block any Iron Sand attacks with Samehada, etc. The Water Dome + Samehada fusion should enable him to outspeed Sandaime easily, slow down Satetsu, and eat Sasori's threads + destroy the puppet. After all, I'm sure you'd admit that his defensive and offensive capability surpasses that of Sakura.



Lightysnake said:


> Right here



Gotcha.




Lightysnake said:


> Yes. But Sasuke himself admitted Deidara was only playing with him there.



True, but Kakashi is at least as fast as Hebi Sasuke, is probably a smarter fighter, and has quite an arsenal of defense Jutsu. 



Lightysnake said:


> the problem: Kakashi has a small number of Raikiris. Deidara has a ton of bombs. the Doton wall is small and certainly won't hold to such a huge explosion. The Raikiri is one thing but Sasuke noticeably didn't even bother...plus if Kakashi lunges for it, Deidara can just detonate it before he touches it. You don't need a direct hit with those explosives



The Doton Wall, if we're to go by the one that Sarutobi utilized against Orochimaru, can be very large, too. And besides, the point is not to fully shield Kakashi, but rather to at least slow down the explosives or provide momentary protection against them. Oh, and by the way, Kakashi can always Doton and avoid Deidara's mines with the Sharingan (if he will even be able to implant them). 

And Raikiri can always be replaced by a Lightning Hound, if necessary. 




Lightysnake said:


> Deidara can easily dodge it, though. I mean REALLY easily. Also...how does Kakashi get into the air without Deidara noticing? He's an incredible multi tasker and the bunshin halves Kakashi's chakra. If the chakra is diffused, that just means it can't explode. It can still fly and Deidara will just leap off and make a C1.



If the chakra is diffused, it cannot work; that only makes sense, as Deidara must manipulate his dragon in order for it to fly. Furthermore, the point of the initial long-ranged attack is clearly to distract Deidara; Kakashi can match Deidara's arsenal with his own, at least until he obtains an opening and manages to bring down the dragon.



Lightysnake said:


> Kakashi expressed confidence there because of Kamui. He fell on it immediately.
> A fresh Deidara is a poor matchup for Kakashi, no less because he doesn't have much by long range and Deidara stays out of attack ranges



I do believe that Kakashi will beat Deidara in a one-on-one battle; after all, he has nearly each and every advantage Hebi Sasuke had. 




Lightysnake said:


> You can't just dodge C4 if you can't fly. The cloud is huge and covers a large radius,  and Deidara only readies it when it'll cover you. From then on you have to not rbeathe, which without knowledge is hard...and Deidara can use C1 to hem you in.



Okay.



Lightysnake said:


> And he can't fight after C4?
> He used...two of them, a C2 dragon, an entire minefield, multiple c1s and STILL had a small amount of chakra left over.
> Stamina is not a problem for Deidara



Good point, I'll concede that. 






Lightysnake said:


> Well, yeah, I just think Deidara has an edge. Certainly Kisame and Gaara



Well, maybe.


----------



## Turrin (May 1, 2010)

> And he could beat a good deal of them as well. It's not that clear cut. He and Sasori are roughly equals, he could certainly kill Orochimaru and Kisame, if he used C4 off the bat, Itachi'd die and that's IC for him...him vs. Jiraiya'd be a decent fight as well.
> 
> Yes, many of them can beat him. The reverse is true as well


Dedaria flat out stated Sasori was stronger then him. And Yes Dedaria has the chance to beat people in tier 3 under certain circumstances, but more often then not Dedaria would loose to the people in tier 3 they are just overall a step beyond him.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Dedaria flat out stated Sasori was stronger then him. And Yes Dedaria has the chance to beat people in tier 3 under certain circumstances, but more often then not Dedaria would loose to the people in tier 3 they are just overall a step beyond him.



Not really, no. He has an equal chance against most of them. And he'd outright kill Orochimaru.

Also, don't take the Sasori quote that seriously. The feats don't reflect it and Deidara was intending to get Kakashi out of the way so he could capture Naruto.


----------



## Extasee (May 1, 2010)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> 8.   Sasuke Uchiha
> 9.   Naruto Uzumaki



 ......


----------



## Gspot (May 1, 2010)

_(Myth-level characters)_
Rikudou Sennin, Senju ancestor, Uchiha ancestor

_("Real" characters)_
Shodai, Madara, Pein, Minato

And then it gets really swampy, so I'm just going to stop.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 1, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> Yes, but aside from Edo Tensei, Orochimaru also has:
> 
> -Yamata Mode, with powerful possibly comparable to that of a Bijuu
> -The best defensive arsenal in the manga
> ...



You could give equal accolades to plenty others. Sasori and Deidara would kill Orochimaru, Jiraiya certainly would. Factor in Sennin Mode and Jiraiya's the stronger of the two





> True, but the point is that it certainly was not quite as powerful as the original version. Iron Sand might be able to rip through rock, but it will be parried by a large barrier of sand + the ultimate defense.


I see no reason to suggest otherwise. Satetsu is noted as Suna's stronger weapon



> Though, of course, Sasori has a serious chance to beat Gaara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He'll just use the drizzle or the supersonic attack here. Sasori made the Satetsu even stronger given the poison mix, too




> Deidara himself admitted Sasori's superiority over him.


Context, context. shortly before Deidara says Kakashi's the only obstacle to grabbing the Kyuubi, then asks Kakashi "Hey, you sure you wanna fight me? Your friends are in trouble, Sasori is stronger than I am!"
Naruto: go back inside, I've got this!
Deidara? Smiles in plain satisfaction. Kakashi then basically says "Yeah, not fooling me here."
Their actual abilities shown place them as pretty much equals. and when Deidara made that statement, he was far, far from his best.





> True, but it's quite compatible against a variety of fighting styles.



Yes, but it's resulted in him being hyped up more than several Akatsuki members who are far more versatile and better at multiple types than he is



> Kisame has the vast arsenal of Jutsu necessary to keep both Sandaime and Sasori on their toes, will be able to block any Iron Sand attacks with Samehada, etc. The Water Dome + Samehada fusion should enable him to outspeed Sandaime easily, slow down Satetsu, and eat Sasori's threads + destroy the puppet. After all, I'm sure you'd admit that his defensive and offensive capability surpasses that of Sakura.


That's the thing, though:
A. A full drizzle of Iron Sand? even a scratch and that's it. Samehada cannot be everywhere and attacks can get through. No
B. If worst to worst, Sasori'll pull out the one hundred puppet dance and swarm them in, even Kisame can't handle all that.
C. Sakura only survived due to CHIYO making her the 'puppet.' And Kisame can't make an antidote like Sakura




> Gotcha.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In base, yes. Deidara's serious bombs ran down a CS 2 form Sasuke. he also lacks the durability, Chidori sword and flight




> The Doton Wall, if we're to go by the one that Sarutobi utilized against Orochimaru, can be very large, too. And besides, the point is not to fully shield Kakashi, but rather to at least slow down the explosives or provide momentary protection against them. Oh, and by the way, Kakashi can always Doton and avoid Deidara's mines with the Sharingan (if he will even be able to implant them).


He can use a bunshin, which is another BIG issue for Kakashi given how strong that explosion is. if he starts doing that, Deidara'll just unleash a C4



> And Raikiri can always be replaced by a Lightning Hound, if necessary.


Doesn't seem effective in airborne strategy...And Deidara can guide the missiles around or past it




> If the chakra is diffused, it cannot work; that only makes sense, as Deidara must manipulate his dragon in order for it to fly. Furthermore, the point of the initial long-ranged attack is clearly to distract Deidara; Kakashi can match Deidara's arsenal with his own, at least until he obtains an opening and manages to bring down the dragon.


When Sasuke chidori'd a clay Bunshin, it was still able to act. Being unable to explode? Maybe, but they still operate. And your'e assuming Kakashi will do this. Deidara does not distract easy, Kakashi has no way to realistically get on the dragon and every jutsu he uses while using Sharingan is bad 



> I do believe that Kakashi will beat Deidara in a one-on-one battle; after all, he has nearly each and every advantage Hebi Sasuke had.


He lacks the speed, durability and flight.
Only reasons Sasuke survived in addition to Sharingan and Raiton.  If not, Sasuke would've been dead on the first mine. Plus, Deidara was playing most of the fight.
So, Deidara does pretty much trump Kakashi there





> Okay.
> 
> 
> Good point, I'll concede that.
> ...


Gaara at least


----------



## Zach (May 1, 2010)

1.Rokudou Sennin
2.Nagato/Pain
3.Shodai
4.Madara(prime)
5.Minato
6.Hiruzen(prime)
7.Itachi(prime)
8.Raikage
9.Naruto(current)
10.Sasuke(current)
11.Jiraiya
12.Orochimaru
13.Kisame
14.Killer Bee
15.Sasori
16.Kakuza
17.Nidaime
18.Mei
19.Tsunade
20.Deidara

Probably forgot some.


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2010)

> Not really, no. He has an equal chance against most of them. And he'd outright kill Orochimaru.
> 
> Also, don't take the Sasori quote that seriously. The feats don't reflect it and Deidara was intending to get Kakashi out of the way so he could capture Naruto.


I honestly disagree;

Base Jiraiya would destroy Dedaria with Gamma Yuedan; Thats pretty much all it would take, but HM would also Destroy Dedaria

Similarly Naruto would destroy Dedaria with SM and FRS

Hebi Sasuke beat Dedaria; Taka Sasuke would Destroy Dedaria with a combination of Susano'o Arrows, Amaterasu/Enton, Hawk Summon, and Genjutsu

Sasori would beat Dedaria with Iron Sand and i do think Sasori's abilities are above Dedaria's as Dedaria said

Orochimaru and Nindaime would beat Dedaria with Edo Tensi

I'm not sure how exactly Hanzo or Sarutobi(Prime) would win, but since Hanzo defeated all 3 Sannin back in the day and it was stated in the DB that Sarutobi(Prime) would beat Orochimaru + Nindaime and Shodai Tensi i'm pretty sure he would win as well.

Itachi and Kisame would have the toughest time against Dedaria from a lack of ranged Ninjutsu; But Itachi should be able to win through putting his cunning and intelligence to good use and Kisame should be able to win through spamming Suiton to bring down Dedaria's Clary Birds he flies on and then destroying him up close with Samehada and Brute strength.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> I honestly disagree;
> 
> Base Jiraiya would destroy Dedaria with Gamma Yuedan; Thats pretty much all it would take, but HM would also Destroy Dedaria


Not really. Deidara's flgiht negates the barriers and his bombs are a good counter.
Plus, C4



> Similarly Naruto would destroy Dedaria with SM and FRS


Probably, but only due to FRs



> Hebi Sasuke beat Dedaria; Taka Sasuke would Destroy Dedaria with a combination of Susano'o Arrows, Amaterasu/Enton, Hawk Summon, and Genjutsu


Hebi Sasuke had the tools to do so. Namely the cursed seal. And he needed serious plot on his side, and got a random new Sharingan ability. MS spamming Sasuke would win. But Jiraiya and Deidara is an even match as Deidara can easily kill his summons and keep him on the run



> Sasori would beat Dedaria with Iron Sand and i do think Sasori's abilities are above Dedaria's as Dedaria said


Not really. Deidara's fast enough to dodge it and explosions>puppets. Deidara's context there? questionable



> Orochimaru and Nindaime would beat Dedaria with Edo Tensi


Oh, so we give them full prep time? Not only did Niidaime never USE it in anything we've seen him in given he said himself it was taboo, Deidara has C4 against Orochimaru anyways. And take away Edo Tensei, which he only ever used a grand total of once, he goes down



> I'm not sure how exactly Hanzo or Sarutobi(Prime) would win, but since Hanzo defeated all 3 Sannin back in the day and it was stated in the DB that Sarutobi(Prime) would beat Orochimaru + Nindaime and Shodai Tensi i'm pretty sure he would win as well.


Okay, so you don't really have an argument here? "Sure, they don't have any abilities shown that'd let them win, but I'm sure they would anyways!"
Hanzo beat the Sannin before they hit their peaks and prime Sarutobi was only said to be able to kill Orochimaru.
Neither has shown anything that>Deidara



> Itachi and Kisame would have the toughest time against Dedaria from a lack of ranged Ninjutsu; But Itachi should be able to win through putting his cunning and intelligence to good use and Kisame should be able to win through spamming Suiton to bring down Dedaria's Clary Birds he flies on and then destroying him up close with Samehada and Brute strength.


You know, this is something I sincerely despise.
"Oh, sure he'll win. He's CLEVER!" So what? Deidara's got a high intelligence stat and he's consistently made good use of strategy beyond "Lol, genjutsu" unlike Itachi.
ICly, know what Deidara will do when the fight starts? Pull out C4, the Jutsu he made to kill Itachi. Itachi has no defense to that.

And Kisame? don't make me laugh. Deidara is fine against suitons. He has doton, the elemental advantage. Kisame has no ranged suiton projectiles TO bring down the birds and Deidara is far faster than Kisame, with stronger attacks. he can stay out of his range, has the elemental advantage, his bombs aren't affected by suitons and he isn't caught by the battlefield altering.

Plus, he's way faster.

You're kind of underestimating Deidara horribly. He's the worst matchup for Orochimaru and Kisame. And Sarutobi...REALLY? You're kind of underestimating how utterly insane flight actually is

you're also not even considering that you're giving far fetched scenarios and maybes in some cases as ways to win, ignoring Deidara can take them out as well. Thus he's on the same tier.


----------



## jakemooz (May 2, 2010)

> 1.Rokudou Sennin
> 2.Nagato/Pain
> 3.Shodai
> 4.Madara(prime)
> ...



wow this is like perfect.

And I'm sure the guy who can use all the jutsu in konoha has one long range lightning attack o.o


----------



## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

Perfect? Kakuzu, Kisame, Tsunade and MEI above Deidara? Let alone Jiraiya being that far down?


----------



## Judecious (May 2, 2010)

Zach said:


> 1.Rokudou Sennin
> 2.Nagato/Pain
> 3.Shodai
> 4.Madara(prime)
> ...



itachi is way to high and jiraiya is low
sasuke and naruto are above itachi


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2010)

> Not really. Deidara's flgiht negates the barriers and his bombs are a good counter.
> Plus, C4


Again Gamma Yuedan thee end



> Probably, but only due to FRs


I think he can probably beat him by Using KB to reach his height and then landing on him with an Ultimate Rasengan or just brute strength; Same thing can be said about Jiraiya. But at least we agree Naruto would win



> Hebi Sasuke had the tools to do so. Namely the cursed seal. And he needed serious plot on his side, and got a random new Sharingan ability. MS spamming Sasuke would win. But Jiraiya and Deidara is an even match as Deidara can easily kill his summons and keep him on the run


Glad we agree Sasuke would win



> Not really. Deidara's fast enough to dodge it and explosions>puppets. Deidara's context there? questionable


I really don't see Dedaria dodging Satetsu Kesshou w/o getting a scratch or Satetsu Shigure



> Oh, so we give them full prep time? Not only did Niidaime never USE it in anything we've seen him in given he said himself it was taboo, Deidara has C4 against Orochimaru anyways. And take away Edo Tensei, which he only ever used a grand total of once, he goes down


Yes i'm giving them a potential for Prep; Thats why i put them in a broad tier. They are a tier above Dedaria because i'm considering them at their strongest. 



> Okay, so you don't really have an argument here? "Sure, they don't have any abilities shown that'd let them win, but I'm sure they would anyways!"
> Hanzo beat the Sannin before they hit their peaks and prime Sarutobi was only said to be able to kill Orochimaru.
> Neither has shown anything that>Deidara


True; I basically admitted that i didn't have a real argument here. But i do think their hype speaks enough to consider them on a tier above Dedaria. After all Sarutobi was called the God of Shinobi and Jiraiya had his mind blown by the fact that some one could beat Hanzo.



> You know, this is something I sincerely despise.
> "Oh, sure he'll win. He's CLEVER!" So what? Deidara's got a high intelligence stat and he's consistently made good use of strategy beyond "Lol, genjutsu" unlike Itachi.
> ICly, know what Deidara will do when the fight starts? Pull out C4, the Jutsu he made to kill Itachi. Itachi has no defense to that.


I don't know if its IC for Dedaria to start with C4. And what i mean by Itachi being intelligent is that he has Clones which can fly or henge into birds and shit and fly up to Dedaria's hight and explode or attack him and through him off his bird. He may also be able to put enough chakra into a clone to fly up their an Amaterasu Dedaria.

As i said it would be difficult for Itachi because of type match up, but Itachi would probably win



> And Kisame? don't make me laugh. Deidara is fine against suitons. He has doton, the elemental advantage. Kisame has no ranged suiton projectiles TO bring down the birds and Deidara is far faster than Kisame, with stronger attacks. he can stay out of his range, has the elemental advantage, his bombs aren't affected by suitons and he isn't caught by the battlefield altering.


I see Samehada disabling all of Dedaria's Bombs; Also Kisame's Water Shark Missile is a long range Suiton and kisame has water clones which he can use to get him up to that height and all Kisame has to do is knock Dedaria off his bird and capture him in water shark Dance prison then its over for Dedaria. 



> You're kind of underestimating Deidara horribly. He's the worst matchup for Orochimaru and Kisame. And Sarutobi...REALLY? You're kind of underestimating how utterly insane flight actually is
> 
> you're also not even considering that you're giving far fetched scenarios and maybes in some cases as ways to win, ignoring Deidara can take them out as well. Thus he's on the same tier.


He's not on the same tier when they can all beat him more often then he would beat them; He's also not on the same tier when all of those Shinobi have abilities exceeding his and would perform better against the vast population of the Naruto world.

Sure Dedaria could win against some of the people in Tier 3 if he played his cards right, but it would be very infrequent that he would be the victor and the same can be said about other Tier 4 People as well. Not to mention the people in Tier 4 would all have an equal shot of beating Dedaria then he has of beating them depending on type match up; which makes him equal to Tier 4


----------



## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Again Gamma Yuedan thee end


And what technique is this?



> I think he can probably beat him by Using KB to reach his height and then landing on him with an Ultimate Rasengan or just brute strength; Same thing can be said about Jiraiya. But at least we agree Naruto would win


That's an absurd tactic. Deidara is not standing around as the opponent builds a LADDER



> Glad we agree Sasuke would win
> 
> 
> I really don't see Dedaria dodging Satetsu Kesshou w/o getting a scratch or Satetsu Shigure


Nonsense. Chiyo could react to it and Sasori said she could've dodged if not for saving Sakura. Deidara is much, much faster. And on his bird? Sasori lacks the dodging feats for the bombs besides



> Yes i'm giving them a potential for Prep; Thats why i put them in a broad tier. They are a tier above Dedaria because i'm considering them at their strongest.


Then account for C4. and you're giving Orochimaru something outside his common moveset



> True; I basically admitted that i didn't have a real argument here. But i do think their hype speaks enough to consider them on a tier above Dedaria. After all Sarutobi was called the God of Shinobi and Jiraiya had his mind blown by the fact that some one could beat Hanzo.


That doesn't work. Just because they're hyped doesn't mean they'll have the tools to win every given scenario



> I don't know if its IC for Dedaria to start with C4. And what i mean by Itachi being intelligent is that he has Clones which can fly or henge into birds and shit and fly up to Dedaria's hight and explode or attack him and through him off his bird. He may also be able to put enough chakra into a clone to fly up their an Amaterasu Dedaria.


Turrin, you're really bright, so please, listen to me that this argument here is rather beneath you. Deidara mde C4 FOR Itachi. He said he'd use it to kill him. He'd lead off with it against him. Itachi's clones can't fly and the crows are a genjutsu thing besides. And Deidara's immune to his genjutsu. Using explosions on Deidara? Not smart.



> As i said it would be difficult for Itachi because of type match up, but Itachi would probably win


Not really. He has a C4 on him right off. Literally immediately.
With no way to survive



> I see Samehada disabling all of Dedaria's Bombs; Also Kisame's Water Shark Missile is a long range Suiton and kisame has water clones which he can use to get him up to that height and all Kisame has to do is knock Dedaria off his bird and capture him in water shark Dance prison then its over for Dedaria.


Turrin, seriously, you ARE better than this:
1. Deidara detonates the bombs when they're close, not when they're TOUCHING someone. Samehada also hasn't shown it can absorb invisible chakra. It didn't absorb from Gai. Or Asuma's trench knives.
2. Deidara can't easily dodge the missile...why? And Kisame can only use that one with a water supply around or make his own first? How the HELL does he use his clones to 'get up to Deidara's height?'
3. Deidara is far faster than Kisame, why do all your scenarios involve him standing around, letting his opponents build LADDERS out of their clones? He isn't moving, rising, fighting or anything? Yes, Turrin, Deidara doing absolutely nothing would leave this as a valid strategy. But he's fighting back



> He's not on the same tier when they can all beat him more often then he would beat them; He's also not on the same tier when all of those Shinobi have abilities exceeding his and would perform better against the vast population of the Naruto world.


Yeah, except that's not true. AT ALL. 



> Sure Dedaria could win against some of the people in Tier 3 if he played his cards right, but it would be very infrequent that he would be the victor and the same can be said about other Tier 4 People as well. Not to mention the people in Tier 4 would all have an equal shot of beating Dedaria then he has of beating them depending on type match up; which makes him equal to Tier 4


Not really. Your entire argument about him versus most people on tier 3 is giving them absurd strategies like letting them somehow FLY or reach Deidara with Bunshins while he stands around doing nohing.
Bloodlust them and he'll win most every fight with C4 besides. He's powerful enough, his fighting style is unpredictable and dangerous in third party situations.

So yes, he's definitely a solid tier 3 based on what he has shown and what he can do, with ample speed, intelligence and stamina


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2010)

> And what technique is this?


This Technique



Shot up at the air would be the end of Dedaria



> That's an absurd tactic. Deidara is not standing around as the opponent builds a LADDER


What Ladder; I'm talking about this


"Sage Naruto Dances in the Sky", Mashi Kishimoto



> Nonsense. Chiyo could react to it and Sasori said she could've dodged if not for saving Sakura. Deidara is much, much faster. And on his bird? Sasori lacks the dodging feats for the bombs besides


Sasori never used Satetsu Kesshou on Chiyo and i don't remember him saying she could dodge Satetsu Shigure. 



> Then account for C4. and you're giving Orochimaru something outside his common moveset


When did i say i wasn't counting C4?



> Turrin, you're really bright, so please, listen to me that this argument here is rather beneath you. Deidara mde C4 FOR Itachi. He said he'd use it to kill him. He'd lead off with it against him


Just because he made something to kill Itachi does not mean that he would lead off with it; He could also use it as his trumph card



> . Itachi's clones can't fly and the crows are a genjutsu thing besides. And Deidara's immune to his genjutsu. Using explosions on Deidara? Not smart.


Any Clone can fly all it has to do is Henge into a Bird and the Crows Aren't a Genjutsu; Itachi's Clones are Made up of Crows:

"Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
User: Uchiha Itachi

A human-shaped servant is created for get-togethers, inheriting his master's powers!!

A technique that produces a clone by projecting one's own chakra towards dozens of "crows". Because it uses crows as an medium, it requires less chakra then the normal "Shadow Clone Technique," while still being able to perform techniques.

[picture of Sasuke being surrounded by the crows from Itachi's Crow Clone]
→↓The dozens of crows come together to form the body of a clone. When the chakra projected by the user is severed, the crows disperse.
[picture of Itachi's Crow Clone flying apart in front of Naruto]"



> Not really. He has a C4 on him right off. Literally immediately.
> With no way to survive


I really doubt he will use C4 immediately; I mean Itachi could kill him by using Amaterasu Immediately too, but i don't see that happening ether.



> Turrin, seriously, you ARE better than this:
> 1. Deidara detonates the bombs when they're close, not when they're TOUCHING someone. Samehada also hasn't shown it can absorb invisible chakra. It didn't absorb from Gai. Or Asuma's trench knives.
> 2. Deidara can't easily dodge the missile...why? And Kisame can only use that one with a water supply around or make his own first? How the HELL does he use his clones to 'get up to Deidara's height?'
> 3. Deidara is far faster than Kisame, why do all your scenarios involve him standing around, letting his opponents build LADDERS out of their clones? He isn't moving, rising, fighting or anything? Yes, Turrin, Deidara doing absolutely nothing would leave this as a valid strategy. But he's fighting back


No Dedaria would have a hard time if a bunch of Kisame Water Clones are Spamming Water Shark Missile at him. And with his brute strength he could through clones to Dedaria's height. And i still think he can absorb the chakra from bombs.

And Dedaria has to get air born himself; which would be hard against a close combat fighter like Kisame 



> Yeah, except that's not true. AT ALL.


So far the only people who Dedaria even seems to have a small chance against are Itachi and Kisame; Kisame is close combat specialist and Against Itachi he has specially developed Offensive and Defensive moves to take him out; So yeah bad type match up in both cases. Though i still think they would win.

Anyway though two questionable people he can beat in tier 3 because of type match up pretty much makes my statement true.



> Not really. Your entire argument about him versus most people on tier 3 is giving them absurd strategies like letting them somehow FLY or reach Deidara with Bunshins while he stands around doing nohing.
> Bloodlust them and he'll win most every fight with C4 besides. He's powerful enough, his fighting style is unpredictable and dangerous in third party situations.


LOL... we'll talk about this after this post


----------



## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> This Technique
> 
> 
> 
> Shot up at the air would be the end of Dedaria



Probably. Of course he'd need to summon bunta who'd need to survive a bombardment. 
Unlikely



> What Ladder; I'm talking about this
> 
> 
> "Sage Naruto Dances in the Sky", Mashi Kishimoto


Deidara: Juuust gonna stand here. won't dodge or nothing while you prepare an obvious attack. If only I could fly...



> Sasori never used Satetsu Kesshou on Chiyo and i don't remember him saying she could dodge Satetsu Shigure.


Sasori You have to dodge it, you know that! But you were do focused on saving the girl...

chiyo was able to react to all of it. Deidara is way faster. end of story there



> When did i say i wasn't counting C4?


I'm trying to give your argument some credit, so I assume it



> Just because he made something to kill Itachi does not mean that he would lead off with it; He could also use it as his trumph card


*He made it to kill Itachi and stated he'd use it for him*/.
Get over it. It would be ICly used



> Any Clone can fly all it has to do is Henge into a Bird and the Crows Aren't a Genjutsu; Itachi's Clones are Made up of Crows:


I don't think you get how henge works. That's so OOC it isn't even funny. 
Realistically? C4, end of fight. And Deidara's too maneuverable in the air



> "Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...


Yeah, because Amaterasu was made to kill Deidara. Just drop this point.



> No Dedaria would have a hard time if a bunch of Kisame Water Clones are Spamming Water Shark Missile at him. And with his brute strength he could through clones to Dedaria's height. And i still think he can absorb the chakra from bombs.


Deidara stays out of his opponents' reaches, so no real issue. How the hell would a clone hit Deidara before being blown up or dodge?
And you THINK he cna absorb the chakra from bombs? Well, tough. Prove up. Your argument is getting just plain idiotic. "Well I think he can cuz KISAME IS AWESOME" essentially? When it failed to absorb chakra from Asuma's knives?



> And Dedaria has to get air born himself; which would be hard against a close combat fighter like Kisame


Bull. Shit.;
Deidara lasted in CQC against Gai, Neji and Lee at once. He got into the air when he had to kick giant shurikens out of his arms when the ground beneath him was exploding.
He's way faster than Kisame, with a good /5 on him in speed.

Deidara getting to the air is easy



> So far the only people who Dedaria even seems to have a small chance against are Itachi and Kisame; Kisame is close combat specialist and Against Itachi he has specially developed Offensive and Defensive moves to take him out; So yeah bad type match up in both cases. Though i still think they would win.


and Jiraiya, and Orochimaru who he wanted to take out, and Sasori, who he could kill pretty wlel with his bombs and Hanzo and Sarutobi who have nothing to take him out.
I don't care about your unsupported opinion at this point. Your arguments consist of unsupported assumptions and making Deidara an immobile idiot, ignoring his intelligence, abilities, strength and speed. 
So, no. he fits comfortably in tier 4 and you being a complete hypocrite by saying "They have this move to kill him right off!" meaning they'll use it while C4 doesn't matter? Tell us how Kisame, Jiraiya and Orochimaru survive that



> Anyway though two questionable people he can beat in tier 3 because of type match up pretty much makes my statement true.


Only if we take your version of Deidara.
The apparently blind, immobile idiot, who has no relation to manga Deidara



> LOL... we'll talk about this after this post


Quite honestly, I've made my point. Done here.


----------



## Turrin (May 2, 2010)

> Probably. Of course he'd need to summon bunta who'd need to survive a bombardment.
> Unlikely


Bunta tanked Shukaku's Drilling Air Bullet and stated he could tank more of them i think Bunta will be fine.



> Deidara: Juuust gonna stand here. won't dodge or nothing while you prepare an obvious attack. If only I could fly...


What does it matter if he tries to evade; Naruto will just keep using this method to close in on him. His jumping power is ridiculous 



> Sasori You have to dodge it, you know that! But you were do focused on saving the girl...
> 
> chiyo was able to react to all of it. Deidara is way faster. end of story there



-That Doesn't mean she can dodge; It just means Sasori is surprised she didn't attempt to. Satetsu Shigure is suppose to move a super sonic speeds; Keep that in mind.

-And Again Sasori never used Satetsu Keshou on Chiyo; There is really no way Dedaria is dodging that w/o a scratch



> He made it to kill Itachi and stated he'd use it for him/.
> Get over it. It would be ICly used


Again i really doubt that he would use it right from the start; It seems like his Trumph card if nothing else works.



> I don't think you get how henge works. That's so OOC it isn't even funny.
> Realistically? C4, end of fight. And Deidara's too maneuverable in the air


What are you talking about; Are you telling me people don't use Henge to transform into animals who have abilities that are useful to them in battle? Hell they transform into weapons that can be thrown to. See how Naruto uses Henge Against Zabuza, Pain, and Garaa. 



> Yeah, because Amaterasu was made to kill Deidara. Just drop this point.


I see your just ignoring the crow clone

As for the Amaterasu thing; No its not, but its about as likely as Dedaria starting off with C4. 

I also honestly don't think C4 would even work as Itachi would see the bombs with Sharigan and then hold his breath and get out of its range like what Sasuke did



> Deidara stays out of his opponents' reaches, so no real issue. How the hell would a clone hit Deidara before being blown up or dodge?
> And you THINK he cna absorb the chakra from bombs? Well, tough. Prove up. Your argument is getting just plain idiotic. "Well I think he can cuz KISAME IS AWESOME" essentially? When it failed to absorb chakra from Asuma's knives?


It failed to absorb chakra from asuma's knives but absorbed chakra from bee's swords. I think its pretty clear that Kisame ether has to activate the ability some how or Kishimoto didn't think that far ahead back then

And yes i think clones thrown up to Dedaria's range could reach him with Kisame's brute strength. I also think a bunch of Mizu clones spamming Water Shark Missile would cause his bird serious problems.



> Bull. Shit.;
> Deidara lasted in CQC against Gai, Neji and Lee at once. He got into the air when he had to kick giant shurikens out of his arms when the ground beneath him was exploding.
> He's way faster than Kisame, with a good /5 on him in speed.
> 
> Deidara getting to the air is easy


He lasted for like 2 Seconds then he had to flee; Dedaria may have a slight speed advantage on him, but it takes him time to lift up from the ground and create a bird to fly on(Plus Samehada is faster then Kisame himself). Kisame was going toe to toe against Gai who is faster then Dedaria in Taijutsu and he was essentially overpowering him in close combat till Gates. So Yeah I think Kisame has a huge advantage in close combat fighting.



> and Jiraiya, and Orochimaru who he wanted to take out, and Sasori, who he could kill pretty wlel with his bombs and Hanzo and Sarutobi who have nothing to take him out.
> I don't care about your unsupported opinion at this point. Your arguments consist of unsupported assumptions and making Deidara an immobile idiot, ignoring his intelligence, abilities, strength and speed.
> So, no. he fits comfortably in tier 4 and you being a complete hypocrite by saying "They have this move to kill him right off!" meaning they'll use it while C4 doesn't matter? Tell us how Kisame, Jiraiya and Orochimaru survive that


Again why am i saying C4 doesn't matter; Dedaria simply wouldn't get the chance to use it against most of them. Against Kisame Samehada would absorb the chakra and Jiraiya has Detection barrier and Ma/Pa's Various Detection abilities to use to avoid it. 

Orochimaru is the only one who is really in danger against it but his Tensi won't be and depending on which tensi he brings they may have a detection technique; And again i don't think it would even come into play because Oro + Tensi would rape Dedaria. 

Again basically the only person he has a small chance against would be Kisame and thats because its a CQC specialist vs thee best Long Range Fighter in the manga



> Only if we take your version of Deidara.
> The apparently blind, immobile idiot, who has no relation to manga Deidara


Your version of Dedaria is one that can apparently move at the speed of light evading everything, is a CQC specialist, can create his bird and fly away in an instant, and uses C4 right off the bat all at the same time.

I'm Just telling it how it is. Jiraiya would Destroy Dedaria with Gamma Yuedan, Naruto would Destroy Dedaria with FRS or Dance on the Sky No Jutsu, Sasuke Already Destroyed Dedaria when he was much weaker then he is now, Itachi would beat Dedaria down with clever Henge/KB Tricks and MS, Orochimaru and Nindaime would destroy Dedaria with Edo Tensi, Sasori would own with Satetsu Kesshou, and Hanzo's and Sarutobi(Prime)'s Hype far overshadow Dedaria's.



> Quite honestly, I've made my point. Done here.




Thats the level of sense your point makes.


----------



## Shinkurai (May 2, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> You could give equal accolades to plenty others. Sasori and Deidara would kill Orochimaru, Jiraiya certainly would. Factor in Sennin Mode and Jiraiya's the stronger of the two



An Orochimaru vs. Deidara/Sasori debate is an entirely separate thing and should be granted a thread of its own. I do, however, believe that Orochimaru (even without Edo Tensei) would defeat both Deidara and Sasori, and might be able to the same to Jiraiya (though, with Frog Song, I'm not sure he'll be able to do it without Edo Tensei).






Lightysnake said:


> I see no reason to suggest otherwise. Satetsu is noted as Suna's stronger weapon



Again, I highly doubt that the Sandaime Kazekage puppet possessed abilities equal to that of the original. 




Lightysnake said:


> He'll just use the drizzle or the supersonic attack here. Sasori made the Satetsu even stronger given the poison mix, too



The poison mix has absolutely nothing to do with the attack's actual penetrative qualities. If Gaara was able to parry Deidara's bombs and the Raikage's kicks, he should probably be able to do the same to Sasori's Satetsu. 





Lightysnake said:


> Context, context. shortly before Deidara says Kakashi's the only obstacle to grabbing the Kyuubi, then asks Kakashi "Hey, you sure you wanna fight me? Your friends are in trouble, Sasori is stronger than I am!"
> Naruto: go back inside, I've got this!
> Deidara? Smiles in plain satisfaction. Kakashi then basically says "Yeah, not fooling me here."
> Their actual abilities shown place them as pretty much equals. and when Deidara made that statement, he was far, far from his best.



This makes sense, but still, its obvious that Deidara respected Sasori as his senior and superior. He referred to him as "Master Sasori", for instance. And do you really think that Deidara would be the type to admit inferiority to another being lightly, especially another artist? That's entirely inconsistent with his massive ego. 







Lightysnake said:


> Yes, but it's resulted in him being hyped up more than several Akatsuki members who are far more versatile and better at multiple types than he is



I still stand by what I said: Kisame is an extremely powerful shinobi.




Lightysnake said:


> That's the thing, though:
> A. A full drizzle of Iron Sand? even a scratch and that's it. Samehada cannot be everywhere and attacks can get through. No
> B. If worst to worst, Sasori'll pull out the one hundred puppet dance and swarm them in, even Kisame can't handle all that.
> C. Sakura only survived due to CHIYO making her the 'puppet.' And Kisame can't make an antidote like Sakura



1. Kisame's faster than Sakura, has Samehada, and also has the advantage of having Suitons in order to level the playing field. For example, he would have an obvious advantage if he were to trap Sasori and Sandaime within his water dome.

2. Actually, the 100 puppets would be a lot easier for Kisame to cope with. Mass scales Suitons should crush the majority of them, and, with each swing, Samehada can destroy many of them. Hell, it should also be able to screw with Sasori's control of them, through the absorption of the chakra strings. 

3. I don't Sakura was a "puppet" for most of the time she was fighting Sandaime. 





Lightysnake said:


> In base, yes. Deidara's serious bombs ran down a CS 2 form Sasuke. he also lacks the durability, Chidori sword and flight



That's true, but Kakashi still possesses a large offensive arsenal and is a smarter fighter than Hebi Sasuke. 



Lightysnake said:


> He can use a bunshin, which is another BIG issue for Kakashi given how strong that explosion is. if he starts doing that, Deidara'll just unleash a C4



Bunshins will, if utterly necessary, but Kamui'd away, but I don't think Kakashi would fall for a Bunshin feint. C4 would also be countered, in the same way Sasuke did.




Lightysnake said:


> Doesn't seem effective in airborne strategy...And Deidara can guide the missiles around or past it



If he's quick enough, which I doubt. 





Lightysnake said:


> When Sasuke chidori'd a clay Bunshin, it was still able to act. Being unable to explode? Maybe, but they still operate. And your'e assuming Kakashi will do this. Deidara does not distract easy, Kakashi has no way to realistically get on the dragon and every jutsu he uses while using Sharingan is bad



That's just one possibility; Kakashi has numerous way to somehow board the dragon, from which point he can simply disable it. Furthermore, Deidara's clone could not act: it simply remained static while Deidara emerged from below and unleashing C4.


----------



## Sanbi (May 2, 2010)

Characters with feats only.

1. Pain Rikudo
2. Kirabi
3. HM Jiraiya
4. Itachi Uchiha
5. Orochimaru (with Edo Tensei)
6. Danzo Shimura
7. Kisame Hoshigaki
8/9. Naruto Uzumaki
8/9. Taka Sasuke
10. Akasuna no Sasori
11. A (Raikage)
12/13. Kakashi Hatake
12/13. Tsunade
14. Deidara
15. Kakuzu
16. Garra
17. Hiruzen Sarutobi (Old)
18. Maito Gai
19. Konan
20. Hidan

Tiers:
*Nagato
Kirabi, Jiraiya, Itachi, Orochimaru, Danzo 
Kisame, Sasuke, Naruto, Sasori, A
Kakashi, Tsunade, Deidara, Kakuzu, Garra
Old Hiruzen, Gai, Konan, Hidan​*


----------



## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> An Orochimaru vs. Deidara/Sasori debate is an entirely separate thing and should be granted a thread of its own. I do, however, believe that Orochimaru (even without Edo Tensei) would defeat both Deidara and Sasori, and might be able to the same to Jiraiya (though, with Frog Song, I'm not sure he'll be able to do it without Edo Tensei).


I've told Turrin I'm going to be ignoring his awful responses in this thread from here on, so I'll continue here:
Without Edo tensei? That is, quite frankly, insane. Orochimaru is slower than Deidara who has an attack that will kill him instantly that he's likely willing to use. Sasori is debatable, but Deidara's flight nullifies most of Orochimaru's adavtnages, Deidara can slaughter his summons and C4 is a game ender, and given how much he wanted Deidara
As usual, we see overhyping of Orochimaru and downplaying of Sasori and Deidara. Both at once is nothing short of freaking ridiculous and totally ignoring all their abilities.








> Again, I highly doubt that the Sandaime Kazekage puppet possessed abilities equal to that of the original.


Prove it.
Nothing implies what you're saying. All that it lost to was Sasori getting slightly overconfident





> The poison mix has absolutely nothing to do with the attack's actual penetrative qualities. If Gaara was able to parry Deidara's bombs and the Raikage's kicks, he should probably be able to do the same to Sasori's Satetsu.


Deidara's C1 bombs. he can't make a shield like that stopped the C3 on his own outside of the desert.
Satetsu>Shukaku, stated in the manga. The penetrative force of Satetsu tears through solid stone like it's paper. Gaara's sand can be pierced and HAS been pierced. There needs to be evidence it can hold up to the power of supersonic projectiles that have no issue treating solid rock like paper






> This makes sense, but still, its obvious that Deidara respected Sasori as his senior and superior. He referred to him as "Master Sasori", for instance. And do you really think that Deidara would be the type to admit inferiority to another being lightly, especially another artist? That's entirely inconsistent with his massive ego.


Deidara called most of his seniors in akatsuki 'Danna.' he believed in respecting his elders-Itachi not included. He didn't even get riled at Hidan when Hidan tried to provoke him, he and Kakuzu were on good terms given Kakuzu sewed his arms up for him, he addressed Kisame with respect and told Tobi to show respect for his elders.
On the flip side, if Deidara respected Sasori so much and considered him so much stronger, why on earth was he constantly provoking him to homicidal rage? he insulted his art, calling it a grotesque puppet show. Mocked him after he died and to his face.
Deidara is not stupid. Sasori was willing to kill him for some of these. 








> I still stand by what I said: Kisame is an extremely powerful shinobi.


Nobody is denying that. So are Deidara and Sasori. Kisame is merely being overrated because a fight against the opponent he is bested suited against happened.





> 1. Kisame's faster than Sakura, has Samehada, and also has the advantage of having Suitons in order to level the playing field. For example, he would have an obvious advantage if he were to trap Sasori and Sandaime within his water dome.


At what point did Sakura show sufficient speed on her own? Chiyo was using Sakura as a puppet and Chiyo is one of the best puppeteers in history.
Plus, no evidence suiton slows down Satetsu. 



> 2. Actually, the 100 puppets would be a lot easier for Kisame to cope with. Mass scales Suitons should crush the majority of them, and, with each swing, Samehada can destroy many of them. Hell, it should also be able to screw with Sasori's control of them, through the absorption of the chakra strings.


He can't handle a hundred at once. He's going to be scratched. Hell, plenty of them even have projectiles. 



> 3. I don't Sakura was a "puppet" for most of the time she was fighting Sandaime.


Yes, she had Chiyo's puppets saving her from certain death there






> That's true, but Kakashi still possesses a large offensive arsenal and is a smarter fighter than Hebi Sasuke.


and Deidara isn't blinded by his complex with the Sharingan and toying with his victim. 
His offensive arsenal here with Raiton is limited to Raikiri and the wolf as well. And the clone




> Bunshins will, if utterly necessary, but Kamui'd away, but I don't think Kakashi would fall for a Bunshin feint. C4 would also be countered, in the same way Sasuke did.


Okay, let's reflect why this is an awful strategy:
Sasuke fell for a Bunshin feint...If Kakashi engages Deidara up close, it's likely to be a capture bunshin which can detonate. Secondly, Kakashi can't analyze C4 like sasuke did as he can't fly out of it. he can't know to hold his breath. If he nails himself with a Raiton...well, that nearly took Sasuke out of the fight and he's more durable. especially given that nearly destroyed him in CS2 form. Meaning Kakashi is now barely able to stand while Deidara's got another C4 in him. At least 





> If he's quick enough, which I doubt.


Deidara is 'quick enough' to compete with Team Gai on the ground while suffering the bloodloss of no arms and fatigue of three days of zero rest. Kakashi's raiton wolf has no real speed feats and Deidara cna guide his missiles past. And could chase down Cs2 Sasuke who is plenty faster than Kakashi






> That's just one possibility; Kakashi has numerous way to somehow board the dragon, from which point he can simply disable it. Furthermore, Deidara's clone could not act: it simply remained static while Deidara emerged from below and unleashing C4.


I'm waiting for a way Kakashi can FLY. That's the only way Sasuke got to Deidara in the air. 
and the clone was sure acting. Removing the scope, talking and moving...


----------



## Shinkurai (May 2, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I've told Turrin I'm going to be ignoring his awful responses in this thread from here on, so I'll continue here:
> Without Edo tensei? That is, quite frankly, insane. Orochimaru is slower than Deidara who has an attack that will kill him instantly that he's likely willing to use. Sasori is debatable, but Deidara's flight nullifies most of Orochimaru's adavtnages, Deidara can slaughter his summons and C4 is a game ender, and given how much he wanted Deidara
> As usual, we see overhyping of Orochimaru and downplaying of Sasori and Deidara. Both at once is nothing short of freaking ridiculous and totally ignoring all their abilities.



As I said, if you want to have an elongated debate on Sasori/Deidara vs. Orochimaru, I'll gladly comply. However, I really don't want to get into something like this here, as we won't be able to give such a debate justice. 









Lightysnake said:


> Prove it.
> Nothing implies what you're saying. All that it lost to was Sasori getting slightly overconfident



Prove it? How does failing to instantly wtfpwn Sakura not count as proof? Gaara, who is, according to your thesis, weaker than the Sandaime Kazekage puppet, would have easily been able to do with with his sand. It's quite clear that the puppet did not possess the strength of the original. Even if he did lose because of Sasori's arrogance, the point still stands. 






Lightysnake said:


> Deidara's C1 bombs. he can't make a shield like that stopped the C3 on his own outside of the desert.



He can use something similar to that Shukaku Shield he used against Kimimaro. And, considering the original strength of it and the fact that Gaara has greatly improved over the timeskip, it would seem logical to me that it can guard Gaara when used in conjunction with the Ultimate Defense.



Lightysnake said:


> Satetsu>Shukaku, stated in the manga. The penetrative force of Satetsu tears through solid stone like it's paper. Gaara's sand can be pierced and HAS been pierced. There needs to be evidence it can hold up to the power of supersonic projectiles that have no issue treating solid rock like paper



So Raikage's kick does not count as something comparable to the Satetsu? It should also be at an incredible speed (RS2 + Momentum), and certainly packs more of a punch than most of Sasori's projectiles. If Gaara was able to effortlessly block that kick with naught but his gourd sand, he should be able to do similar things to Sasori's projectiles.  







Lightysnake said:


> Deidara called most of his seniors in akatsuki 'Danna.' he believed in respecting his elders-Itachi not included. He didn't even get riled at Hidan when Hidan tried to provoke him, he and Kakuzu were on good terms given Kakuzu sewed his arms up for him, he addressed Kisame with respect and told Tobi to show respect for his elders.
> On the flip side, if Deidara respected Sasori so much and considered him so much stronger, why on earth was he constantly provoking him to homicidal rage? he insulted his art, calling it a grotesque puppet show. Mocked him after he died and to his face.
> Deidara is not stupid. Sasori was willing to kill him for some of these.



When has Sasori displayed any homicidal rage? He might have been impatient and not fond of "waiting or making others wait", but he most certainly was _not_ Kakuzu. Deidara acted as Sasori's inferior, as his apprentice- it's clear who was the dominant figure in that relationship, and I hardly doubt Deidara would have acted in that way had he not thought Sasori was truly his superior. Again, refer to Deidara's massive ego. 



Lightysnake said:


> Nobody is denying that. So are Deidara and Sasori. Kisame is merely being overrated because a fight against the opponent he is bested suited against happened.



I don't think so, but it's possible Killer Bee was just the type of opponent to make Kisame look good. 



Lightysnake said:


> At what point did Sakura show sufficient speed on her own? Chiyo was using Sakura as a puppet and Chiyo is one of the best puppeteers in history.
> Plus, no evidence suiton slows down Satetsu.



After Sakura was caught in Sandaime's poisonous cloud, she escaped and fought on her own (correct me if I'm wrong). Kisame is faster and far stronger than Sakura; he should be able to accomplish something similar.

Of course Suiton should slow down Satetsu. Anything with a considerable momentum hurled against something else would slow down that something else's momentum; after all, objects travel slower in the water than they do on land. If Kisame catches Sasori in his water dome, Satetsu should not be able to move at its full effectives.



Lightysnake said:


> He can't handle a hundred at once. He's going to be scratched. Hell, plenty of them even have projectiles.



Mass scale Suitons + Samehada + Constantly disrupting Sasori's control = superb ability to avoid getting scratched.



Lightysnake said:


> and Deidara isn't blinded by his complex with the Sharingan and toying with his victim.



Kakashi has the Sharingan, too.



Lightysnake said:


> His offensive arsenal here with Raiton is limited to Raikiri and the wolf as well. And the clone



Which are all more potent than what Sasuke using against Deidara. Raikiri, for example, is more powerful than Sasuke's Chidori, Raiton Wolf has a longer range, etc. 





Lightysnake said:


> Okay, let's reflect why this is an awful strategy:
> Sasuke fell for a Bunshin feint...If Kakashi engages Deidara up close, it's likely to be a capture bunshin which can detonate. Secondly, Kakashi can't analyze C4 like sasuke did as he can't fly out of it. he can't know to hold his breath. If he nails himself with a Raiton...well, that nearly took Sasuke out of the fight and he's more durable. especially given that nearly destroyed him in CS2 form. Meaning Kakashi is now barely able to stand while Deidara's got another C4 in him. At least



A Clay Bunshin can be negated with either Kamui (as has canonically been done) or a lightning-based Jutsu. And why would Kakashi not deduce that C4 invades the target's body through the respiratory system? After all, he's very intelligent, and will be able to note the size of the explosives with his Sharingan.








Lightysnake said:


> Deidara is 'quick enough' to compete with Team Gai on the ground while suffering the bloodloss of no arms and fatigue of three days of zero rest. Kakashi's raiton wolf has no real speed feats and Deidara cna guide his missiles past. And could chase down Cs2 Sasuke who is plenty faster than Kakashi



Let see... Kakashi Raiton wolf instantaneously appear in front of the Deva Path, if we're to go by the information the manga panels provide us, but yeah, it's clear that it does not have any truly legitimate speed feats.

As for Deidara's high quickness; that's very true, but you should also note Kakashi's own considerable speed feats. It's quite clear that his ground speed is at the very least equal to Deidara's, if not superior. 







Lightysnake said:


> I'm waiting for a way Kakashi can FLY. That's the only way Sasuke got to Deidara in the air.



Again- Kakashi cannot fly, but has a larger arsenal of long-ranged techniques, has the massive advantage of Bunshin/Raiton Bunshin feints, and has the battle smarts necessary in order to deduce a way to bring down Deidara's C2. A Raiton Bunshin dispersing upon the C2 Dragon would, alone, be sufficient in order to bring the Dragon down. 



Lightysnake said:


> and the clone was sure acting. Removing the scope, talking and moving...



Alright...

Look, let's drop this Kakashi vs. Deidara debate. I don't feel that I can come up with sufficiently good points at the moment, so take this as a concession.


----------



## daschysta (May 2, 2010)

If kakashi can manage to switch himself with a bunshin without deidara's knowledge. (which will be easy, he does it to people that aren't hovering high in the air all the time. Then he can distract deidara with the bunshin and kamui him from another location.

An inferior kamui took off deidaras arm when deidara was aware exactly of what kakashi was doing the second time. He isn't escaping one if he doesn't know it is coming.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

daschysta said:


> If kakashi can manage to switch himself with a bunshin without deidara's knowledge. (which will be easy, he does it to people that aren't hovering high in the air all the time. Then he can distract deidara with the bunshin and kamui him from another location.
> 
> An inferior kamui took off deidaras arm when deidara was aware exactly of what kakashi was doing the second time. He isn't escaping one if he doesn't know it is coming.



Umm...the only Kamui that worked was the first. Deidara dodged the second.

Problem? *Kakashi never uses Kamui like you're suggesting*. 

If you allow for that, then you have to rate Deidara higher for using C4 straight off the bat on every opponent, which is an instant win.

Kakashi will also be halving his chakra with a bunshin, meaning he may not even be able to use Kamui at that juncture safely.



Shinkurai said:


> As I said, if you want to have an elongated debate on Sasori/Deidara vs. Orochimaru, I'll gladly comply. However, I really don't want to get into something like this here, as we won't be able to give such a debate justice.


Sure. Who makes the thread?







> Prove it? How does failing to instantly wtfpwn Sakura not count as proof? Gaara, who is, according to your thesis, weaker than the Sandaime Kazekage puppet, would have easily been able to do with with his sand. It's quite clear that the puppet did not possess the strength of the original. Even if he did lose because of Sasori's arrogance, the point still stands.


Okay, I'm not really sure how to make this much clearer...the only reason Sakura survived was because Chiyo was controlling her as a puppet. Sakura did not operate on her own abilities for much of the fight.
Sasori is not going to be this arrogant against an experienced ninja, nor will it be an issue as the only other ninja who could conceivably survive his poisons are Tsunade with prep, Babuto, Orochimaru and Sasuke. 






> He can use something similar to that Shukaku Shield he used against Kimimaro. And, considering the original strength of it and the fact that Gaara has greatly improved over the timeskip, it would seem logical to me that it can guard Gaara when used in conjunction with the Ultimate Defense.


The problem is Kimimaro's finger bullets still partially went through that shield. The iron sand is far stronger




> So Raikage's kick does not count as something comparable to the Satetsu? It should also be at an incredible speed (RS2 + Momentum), and certainly packs more of a punch than most of Sasori's projectiles. If Gaara was able to effortlessly block that kick with naught but his gourd sand, he should be able to do similar things to Sasori's projectiles.


The leg drop's power is extreme, yes, but I'm not yet ready to classify it to the level of something supersonic that buries itself in solid stone with just a gesture. Also, the sand seemed to barely hold against the raikage. Plus, that's blunt force. Piercing power is something else








> When has Sasori displayed any homicidal rage? He might have been impatient and not fond of "waiting or making others wait", but he most certainly was _not_ Kakuzu. Deidara acted as Sasori's inferior, as his apprentice- it's clear who was the dominant figure in that relationship, and I hardly doubt Deidara would have acted in that way had he not thought Sasori was truly his superior. Again, refer to Deidara's massive ego.


I'd call Sasori snarling at Deidara to not make him angry, then Deidara gleefully continuing to needle him followed by Sasori *trying to kill him* pretty homicidal. He struck at Deidara with his tail.
Deidara treated his elders in Akatsuki with respect.He even acted outwardly respectful to Itachi and consistently told Tobi to do the same. It's not an admission of inferiority, unless you want to say he acted subordinate to Hidan by just letting Hidan insult him.
Deidara also called others 'Danna.' It doesn't mean he thought of himself as inferior. According to the databook, he simply found himself fitting in Akatsuki very quickly and respected its members.
If Deidara couldn't handle himself against Sasori, he'd be suicidal to taunt and needle him constantly. He called Sasori's techniques just a grotesque puppet show that couldn't compare to his own abilities, mocked him for overconfidence and knew about his weak spot.

They're really on part based on what they've shown. Their personalities are simply different




> I don't think so, but it's possible Killer Bee was just the type of opponent to make Kisame look good.


Bee's entire fighting style revolves around visible chakra, unlike the bombs for one



> After Sakura was caught in Sandaime's poisonous cloud, she escaped and fought on her own (correct me if I'm wrong). Kisame is faster and far stronger than Sakura; he should be able to accomplish something similar.


I sincerely don't see the poison cloud making a difference against any high level opponent.
Sakura used a bomb to escape I believe as well. when Satetsu came out, though, Sakura needed Chiyo



> Of course Suiton should slow down Satetsu. Anything with a considerable momentum hurled against something else would slow down that something else's momentum; after all, objects travel slower in the water than they do on land. If Kisame catches Sasori in his water dome, Satetsu should not be able to move at its full effectives.


Satetsu is so fast it can still hurtle through with insane speed. Or he can form it outside of the dome. 




> Mass scale Suitons + Samehada + Constantly disrupting Sasori's control = superb ability to avoid getting scratched.


Don't forget Sasori can nab Kisame's arm with chakra stirngs to prevent blocking. Kisame is going to be hemmed in from literally EVERY side and he only uses his suitons to change the battlefield




> Kakashi has the Sharingan, too.



He's not an Uchiha, which is where Deidara's issues come from. Deidara didn't treat Kakashi like he did Sasuke



> Which are all more potent than what Sasuke using against Deidara. Raikiri, for example, is more powerful than Sasuke's Chidori, Raiton Wolf has a longer range, etc.


Yes, but Deidara's in the air. Kakashi cna only diffuse them. Is he suicidal enough to jump at a bomb with Raikiri?






> A Clay Bunshin can be negated with either Kamui (as has canonically been done) or a lightning-based Jutsu. And why would Kakashi not deduce that C4 invades the target's body through the respiratory system? After all, he's very intelligent, and will be able to note the size of the explosives with his Sharingan.


Kamui takes out an enormous chunk of chakra for Kakashi. and with C4, you just see a cloud of chakra, not millions of bombs. You can't just pull information out of thin air or know to hold your breath. Kakashi has to realize, react and stab himself before Deidara detonates the bombs









> Let see... Kakashi Raiton wolf instantaneously appear in front of the Deva Path, if we're to go by the information the manga panels provide us, but yeah, it's clear that it does not have any truly legitimate speed feats.


I wouldn't say it isntantly appeared...you can see by the lightning trail it was moving



> As for Deidara's high quickness; that's very true, but you should also note Kakashi's own considerable speed feats. It's quite clear that his ground speed is at the very least equal to Deidara's, if not superior.


Deidara did fine against Sasuke on the ground, and evading all of team Gai at once is certainly evidence for superior speed








> Again- Kakashi cannot fly, but has a larger arsenal of long-ranged techniques, has the massive advantage of Bunshin/Raiton Bunshin feints, and has the battle smarts necessary in order to deduce a way to bring down Deidara's C2. A Raiton Bunshin dispersing upon the C2 Dragon would, alone, be sufficient in order to bring the Dragon down.


the problem is getting the raiton bunshin to a dragon flying out of his range. He has to do this while being bombed, in a minefield, too




> Alright.
> 
> Look, let's drop this Kakashi vs. Deidara debate. I don't feel that I can come up with sufficiently good points at the moment, so take this as a concession.



Sure, no worries. Good debate there


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## daschysta (May 2, 2010)

Actually kakashi does use kamui like that.

He used it immediately against deidara because he knew he had no other way of reaching him.

Kage bunshin feints kakashi uses in literally every single fight he has ever been in basically.

He didn't use a bunshin feint against deidara the first time because deidara was already fleeing.

Why would kakashi not use a bunshin feint (which he uses in every fight to great succes) and the only attack he has that can reach deidara?

Kakashi has plenty of chakra for this.

He had enough to wi the fight with kakuzu after a whole fight full of double raikiri's fending off 2 akatsuki at once and using a sourceless suiton.

He used two before dying with quite a bit less than half his chakra left.

And if sasuke can deduce the meaning of C4 i have good reason to believe the more intelligent kakashi can as well. Once he deduces this meaning he can just doton to a safer place. It is also possible that the dispersed raiton chakra of the RKB wont hurt kakashi if he used it on himself. Afterall chidori nagashi doesn't hurt sasuke and raikiri would destroy kakashi's hand every time he used it if your own molded elemental chakra hurt the user. (not sure about that one though)

And anyways if you see a cloud of chakra common sense says to get away and dont breathe in someone elses chakra. The real power of C4 lies in the fact that it is undetectable to most people. If people could see the dispersed chakra many many of them would be able to avoid it.

In his fight a big emphasis was on the fact that sharingan, even with deidara's precautions was still too much for one like deidara to overcome. It was a big story focus and it's main purpose was really to pimp the sharingan. Here is a guy that spent the latter part of his life preparing to defeat itachi's sharingan and he couldn't even take on a non MS one.

Not that this applies to deidara vs everyone but it was abundantly clear that a good sharingan (which kakashi has) is an excellent counter to much of deidara's arsenal. (when combined with raiton nature at least)

Deidara also wont have the advantage of land mines already placed by tobi.



> Deidara did fine against Sasuke on the ground, and evading all of team Gai at once is certainly evidence for superior speed



By evade team guy you mean run away from base team guy for a second before blowing yourself up?

Kakashi could likely evade them briefly as well, especially since it wasn't really much of a conflict.



deidara doesn't seem to have much confidence in his ability to keep up with sasuke on the ground for long...


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## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Actually kakashi does use kamui like that.
> 
> He used it immediately against deidara because he knew he had no other way of reaching him.


and under the circumstance, it was all he could do. Notably, Deidara couldn't fight back



> Kage bunshin feints kakashi uses in literally every single fight he has ever been in basically.


And? the bunshins never last long. and they halve Kakashi's chakra, meaning if the kamui isn't perfect, then another will pretty much end his life



> He didn't use a bunshin feint against deidara the first time because deidara was already fleeing.


Did he use Kamui right off against Itachi? Or Pain? Or Kakuzu? Or Hidan?



> Why would kakashi not use a bunshin feint (which he uses in every fight to great succes) and the only attack he has that can reach deidara?


Because he's left himself with half chakra, he needs an opportunity TO switch, if Deidara notices something's wrong, he'll just use a bunshin feint as well, as he also always does?



> Kakashi has plenty of chakra for this.
> 
> He had enough to wi the fight with kakuzu after a whole fight full of double raikiri's fending off 2 akatsuki at once and using a sourceless suiton.


And he was noting himself he was running low before the suiton even



> He used two before dying with quite a bit less than half his chakra left.



and it killed him. He never uses Kamui save as a last resort. By the same token, C4 would kill him off anyways


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2010)

daschysta said:


> Deidara also wont have the advantage of land mines already placed by tobi.



Couldn't he just do with an Earth Clone?

And Deidara is a real Sharingan counter, once he's up in the air he becomes impossible for jutsu like Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu to hit. Oh, and need I mention Deidara already has a counter to Sharingan Genjutsu? 

Itachi didn't have Sasuke's Raiton Affinity, even with which Sasuke faced tremendous problems with Deidara. He'd be screwed without the MS, and still screwed until he uses Susano'o.


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## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

I do stress again: Deidara made C4 for Itachi. He'd break it out right off for him. Itachi has nothing to protect himself save maybe, MAYBE Susanoo


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 2, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I do stress again: Deidara made C4 for Itachi. He'd break it out right off for him. Itachi has nothing to protect himself save maybe, MAYBE Susanoo



C4 I don't think is the bigggest menace, rather I think it's C2 which will be the main problem. Itachi could easily get of C4's range, but C2 will be very difficult without a Raiton Counter.


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## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

C4's range isn't that easy to escape from. The cloud is huge. Sasuke escaped by flying to where Deidara was.

Itachi can't know he has to hold his breath and when running, that's tough. Likely, C4 would kill him


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## daschysta (May 2, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> and under the circumstance, it was all he could do. Notably, Deidara couldn't fight back
> 
> 
> And? the bunshins never last long. and they halve Kakashi's chakra, meaning if the kamui isn't perfect, then another will pretty much end his life
> ...




I love how you end your post with C4 and then ignore the whole second half of my post which dealt with C4.

And duh he didn't use them against the others thats the whole point!

He uses kamui when he has no other options to land an attack AKA deidara in the air.

I don't think you are arguing that deidara can compete with kakashi on the ground so i'll just act on the assumption that he makes it up to the air.

you don't think that with the lack of other options kakashi wouln't use MS when it is his only means of attack?

The clones always last long enough, how would deidara notice that anything is wrong? He is the one that is way up in the air. If kakashi can fool even itachi that has a sharingan that sees chakra with a bunshin he will sure as hell trick deidara when he is high up in the air and can't notice minute details on the ground.

In this situation deidara would just be trying to hit an evasive clone with bombs, would he succeed eventually? probably but not before kakashi can merc him with a kamui from some other place that he dotoned out of.

and yeah kakashi was already tired vs. kakuzu, this just makes my argument stronger. He used all of those things and still had enough chakra to kill kakuzu with kamui.

It also speaks well of his stamina in the pein fight. he had LESS than half his chakra and still used kamui twice before it killed him.

He used a doton wall a raikiri and a raikiri wolf. Lets say that this is 20 percent of his chakra. He then cut the remaining chakra in half. Then he used two more raikiri and then was able to use two kamuis before dying. This points to kamui being less than 20 percent of his chakra now. Plenty enough to kill dei.

C4's range isn't that easy to escape from. The cloud is huge. Sasuke escaped by flying to where Deidara was.



> Itachi can't know he has to hold his breath and when running, that's tough. Likely, C4 would kill him



It won't be hard for kakashi to escape with doton though. He can see chakra from underground as evidenced by sasuke's assertion and kakashi's ability to come out of the ground at exactly the right place despite not having xray vision.


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## Lightysnake (May 2, 2010)

daschysta said:


> I love how you end your post with C4 and then ignore the whole second half of my post which dealt with C4.


Oh, I'm sorry for not psychically reading your mind to know what you'd edit into it later



> And duh he didn't use them against the others thats the whole point!
> 
> He uses kamui when he has no other options to land an attack AKA deidara in the air.


And yet, he has other options. an attack he needs to land a perfect hit on, far in the air, constantly moving, raining bombs on him?



> I don't think you are arguing that deidara can compete with kakashi on the ground so i'll just act on the assumption that he makes it up to the air.
> 
> you don't think that with the lack of other options kakashi wouln't use MS when it is his only means of attack?


Like with Kakuzu?



> The clones always last long enough, how would deidara notice that anything is wrong? He is the one that is way up in the air. If kakashi can fool even itachi that has a sharingan that sees chakra with a bunshin he will sure as hell trick deidara when he is high up in the air and can't notice minute details on the ground.


Deidara is also a bunshin user, why won't he use one if he's suspicious?
And Deidara can READ PEOPLES' LIPS from distances where he just looks like a small, ordinary bird, he's going to notice those minute details. And bunshins will be destroyed pretty quick



> In this situation deidara would just be trying to hit an evasive clone with bombs, would he succeed eventually? probably but not before kakashi can merc him with a kamui from some other place that he dotoned out of.


'evasive?' It'll take one serious bomb.
Also, Kakashi needs perfect vision on him, given the enormous clay dragon kind of obsuring him.



> and yeah kakashi was already tired vs. kakuzu, this just makes my argument stronger. He used all of those things and still had enough chakra to kill kakuzu with kamui.


Prove it. Kakashi indicates using Kamui would've had serious consequences there. And Kakashi was dead until Naruto and Yamato saved him there



> It also speaks well of his stamina in the pein fight. he had LESS than half his chakra and still used kamui twice before it killed him.


No, the second one killed him and using it Alone would've done it. Even a TINY Kamui on a nail...?



> He used a doton wall a raikiri and a raikiri wolf. Lets say that this is 20 percent of his chakra. He then cut the remaining chakra in half. Then he used two more raikiri and then was able to use two kamuis before dying. This points to kamui being less than 20 percent of his chakra now. Plenty enough to kill dei.


Why re we arbitrarily deciding chakra amounts?

And on C4, way to ignore Sasuke only escaped it by FLYING.  They can't know to hold their breath and Deidara will detonate it in while they're trapped in it. Kakashi seeing chakra doesn't mean he knows exactly what to do.

And I love the downplaying of the team Gai feat. Ok, let's rip off Kakashi's arm, give him n o treatment for it for three days or rest, then rip off the other. See how he does against three Taijutsu specialists.


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## daschysta (May 2, 2010)

If sasuke escaped by flying kakashi will escape in the other direction, which is his first instinct when things get rough.

Kakashi stated that if naruto and yamato wouldn't have arrived he would have had to use kamui, and been in the hospital. If kamui had not killed kakuzu at that time he would be dead. tell me what you think he meant?

Speaking of the giant clay dragon, I suppose kakashi could kamui a wing, making it unable to fly if he can't see deidara. Deidara is screwed on the ground vs. kakashi.

Bunshins are equal physically to the user, at least in speed. It should be able to evade long enough for the real kakashi to elude deidara setting up a use of kamui.

Another interesting possibility as well is this:

If deidara begins the fight on the ground like he did against sasuke, using small bombs and C-1 it is possible he is entirely screwed.

How does this happen"

Deidara attacks with small clay bombs which kakashi reads as being earth style, knowing earth to be weak to lightning kakashi engages deidara in cqc with a raiton bunshin, kakashsi allows deidara to defeat the raiton bunshin or deidara just overpowers it and is shocked making useless all of the earth chakra infused clay deidara has stored and screwing him right there.

Kakashi has all the tools to win this battle and is far more tactical than sasuke to boot. It's not a sure thing for sure, but kakashi should win at least half of the fights with deidara.


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## Shinkurai (May 2, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sure. Who makes the thread?



I don't really have a lot of time right now, so you make it, okay? Also, please make it a Deidara vs. Orochimaru thread. It just sounds a heck of a lot more interesting than an Orochimaru vs. Sasori thread. Does no restrictions (except for Edo Tensei), IC Mindset, 50 meter distance, and the Sannin Battlefield sound cool? 



Lightysnake said:


> Okay, I'm not really sure how to make this much clearer...the only reason Sakura survived was because Chiyo was controlling her as a puppet. Sakura did not operate on her own abilities for much of the fight.
> Sasori is not going to be this arrogant against an experienced ninja, nor will it be an issue as the only other ninja who could conceivably survive his poisons are Tsunade with prep, Babuto, Orochimaru and Sasuke.



Yeah, I double checked. You're right. I'll concede this one too, then.  



Lightysnake said:


> The problem is Kimimaro's finger bullets still partially went through that shield. The iron sand is far stronger



I'm referring to  move. Note what it was able to parry; Kimimaro's most powerful straight-up attack, which should possesses power comparable to that of the Satetsu. Furthermore, Gaara has gotten considerably more powerful, to the point that even his ordinary sand defense can parry something on par with a RS2 kick from A. 



Lightysnake said:


> The leg drop's power is extreme, yes, but I'm not yet ready to classify it to the level of something supersonic that buries itself in solid stone with just a gesture. Also, the sand seemed to barely hold against the raikage. Plus, that's blunt force. Piercing power is something else



The piercing force/blunt force comparison is correct, but note that Kimimaro's attack could also be classified as blunt force. However,  the impact RS1 A made by slamming Sasuke against the ground; logically a leg drop from him would be even more powerful, no? If Gaara's ordinary sand can defend against the RS2 Leg Drop, it's extremely likely that his current Shield of Shukaku would be able to hold out against even Satetsu, at least partially. 



Lightysnake said:


> I'd call Sasori snarling at Deidara to not make him angry, then Deidara gleefully continuing to needle him followed by Sasori *trying to kill him* pretty homicidal. He struck at Deidara with his tail.
> Deidara treated his elders in Akatsuki with respect.He even acted outwardly respectful to Itachi and consistently told Tobi to do the same. It's not an admission of inferiority, unless you want to say he acted subordinate to Hidan by just letting Hidan insult him.
> Deidara also called others 'Danna.' It doesn't mean he thought of himself as inferior. According to the databook, he simply found himself fitting in Akatsuki very quickly and respected its members.
> If Deidara couldn't handle himself against Sasori, he'd be suicidal to taunt and needle him constantly. He called Sasori's techniques just a grotesque puppet show that couldn't compare to his own abilities, mocked him for overconfidence and knew about his weak spot.



That still does not account for why Deidara outright referred to Sasori as his superior. It's true that it could be rationalized as being a way to get Kakashi off his back, but still, Deidara's massive ego would prevent him from admitting inferiority to another artist. So what if it's irrational? Deidara's entire reason for fighting is defined as "on a whim"- he is characterized by his irrationality, and stating that Sasori is stronger than him would go against everything Deidara stands for. 

He never actually mocked Sasori's combat abilities, either; only his philosophy of art. 




Lightysnake said:


> Satetsu is so fast it can still hurtle through with insane speed. Or he can form it outside of the dome.



How would any of that make a difference? Forming it outside the dome would be irrelevant if Kisame is within it, and Shark Mode Kisame was able to outspeed freaking V2 Killer Bee. He'll have absolutely no problem getting around the Satetsu. 





Lightysnake said:


> Don't forget Sasori can nab Kisame's arm with chakra stirngs to prevent blocking. Kisame is going to be hemmed in from literally EVERY side and he only uses his suitons to change the battlefield



It's OOC for Sasori to use Chakra Strings in such a manner, if he can even counter Kisame's insane strength (strength far surpassing his own). His also has various Suiton attacks- Suiton: Suiryudan, for example- and altering the battle is everything. If he can change it to fit his combat style, he can take control of the battle, and defeat even Sasori's puppet army.


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## daschysta (May 2, 2010)

and lightysnake i downgrade his encounter with team gai because it was just not that impressive.



He really just ran away there was no real conflict. He admitted gross inferiority to sasukes ground speed once already, It just isn't much of anything man. He was cornered, ran away, and then blew himself up.

The only thing we ee him do is avoid a shuriken thrown by failten.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 3, 2010)

daschysta said:


> and lightysnake i downgrade his encounter with team gai because it was just not that impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He also avoided Gai, Lee and Neji all rushing at him with their high-level speed and Taijutsu, and avoided Failten and caught her shuriken in his mouth, without the slightest cut from her or any damage from the three close combat legends.

He didn't even have an arm (or both arms) then, and was exhausted and got no treatment for his lost arm. 

He didn't admit gross inferiority to Sasuke's ground speed, just that Sasuke with his speed combined with his other abilities would be too much for him on land combat, as the only real powerful technique Deidara had for land combat was C1 - his weakest type of bomb and which was useless against Sasuke's Raiton Affinity.

Deidara is being underestimated here.


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## Lightysnake (May 3, 2010)

daschysta said:


> and lightysnake i downgrade his encounter with team gai because it was just not that impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



finally getting to this:

Oh, don't be ridiculous. 

He said Sasuke was too fast for C1, that was IT.
and Deidara is seen evading Gai, Neji and Lee. See the four blurs before Tenten throws the kunai?

stop twisting things so your favorite character will win


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## Immortal (May 3, 2010)

1. Sage of the Six Paths
2. Uchiha Itachi
3. First Hokage
4. Uchiha Madara
5. Minato
6. Nagato/Pain
7. Sarutobi - The Third
8. Hanzou
9. Kabuto
10. Naruto
11. Kisame
12. Sasuke
13. White Fang
14. Jiraiya
15. Killer Bee
16. Raikage
17. Sasori
18. Orochimaru
19. Tsunade
20. Hatake Kakashi


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## Thunder (May 4, 2010)

Itachi is certainly too high.


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## Turrin (May 4, 2010)

indeed Itachi is way too high; there are some other problems with it as well, but thats the most glaring


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 4, 2010)

Revised List:

1. Pain/Nagato
2. Hashirama
3. Madara
4. Minato
5. Jiraiya/Itachi
6. Killer Bee/Danzo
7. A
8. Naruto/Sasuke/Deidara
9. Kisame/Tsunade/Orochimaru/Gaara
10. Mei Terumi/Konan
11. Sasori
12. Kakuzu
13. Sarutobi (Old)
14. Chiyo
15. Onoki
16. Kakashi
17. Gai
18. Asuma
19. Kurenai
20. Hidan


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## Judecious (May 4, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Revised List:
> 
> 1. Pain/Nagato
> 2. Hashirama
> ...



good list but naruto, sasuke and orochimaru are too low. sasuke and naruto right now>A and bee


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 4, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> good list but naruto, sasuke and orochimaru are too low. sasuke and naruto right now>A and bee


Not even close, naruto the best. Sasuke and Naruto haven't surpassed A or Bee yet. 

Sasuke has to master the EMS, and Naruto has to master the Kyubi. Both A and Bee beat them in strength, speed, and taijutsu.


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## Turrin (May 4, 2010)

> Revised List:
> 
> 1. Pain/Nagato
> 2. Hashirama
> ...


Naruto and Sasuke should be above A. Killer Bee should be above Jiraiya/Itachi. Sasori is way to low. Konan and Tsunade are too high. Dedaria is too high as well.

Though i really don't think Top 20 list work out too well; Tiers are a-lot better in my opinion.


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## Judecious (May 4, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not even close, naruto the best. Sasuke and Naruto haven't surpassed A or Bee yet.
> 
> Sasuke has to master the EMS, and Naruto has to master the Kyubi. Both A and Bee beat them in strength, speed, and taijutsu.



seriously tho sasuke with MS master will take down bee and raikage any day. unless they have a way to counter susano and amaterasu, which both of them don't have. i mean sasuke fought A who had intel on him with a half ass susano and still could have killed A


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 4, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> seriously tho sasuke with MS master will take down bee and raikage any day. unless they have a way to counter susano and amaterasu, which both of them don't have. i mean sasuke fought A who had intel on him with a half ass susano and still could have killed A


1. Sasuke with MS mastery is still below Bee and A. A's still too fast, thus Amaterasu is useless and his physical strength can hit the Susano'o weakness with more force than what Danzo's Fuuton did. I doubt that it can hold up to someone of Bee's or A's physical strength. And Bee can avoid the Amaterasu with his substitution, he did it before, and Susano'o is no way surviving a V2 Lariat or a Hachibi Blast.

2. What. Info. Did. A. Have. On. Sasuke? The only thing he would have even known about was Sasuke was a Fire and Lightning Type and had defected to Otogakure. Thats it.


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## daschysta (May 4, 2010)

I dunno- Sasukes rudimentary skeleton susanoo offered him a degree of protection against A, even in RS2. I am guessing that it will take something more specialized and focused than just generalized overwhelming speed and power to break through full susanoo.

However it is possible that the raikage could outlast sasuke in stamina, forcing him to make his susanoo subside overtime if he is not in a rage over his brother and fights more tactically. Although I believe that the EMS will allow sasuke perpetual use of susanoo without side effects for all intents and purposes, and the raikage has nothing to counter such an entity.


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## Thunder (May 4, 2010)

EMS was only stated to not cause blindness, IIRC. I doubt it would let Sasuke use Susano'o indefinitely, as it requires a medium to keep itself sustained, meaning Sasuke's life-force should still be drained. EMS dosen't give the user unlimited chakra either. Once Sasuke runs low, goodbye Susano'o.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 4, 2010)

Well, EMS was also stated to unlock a new eye technique. And with the strain on the eyes being gone, Susano-o and Amaterasu should be able to be used for longer. 

Just throwing it out there.


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## kstark2009 (May 4, 2010)

1. 3th Hokage (young)
2. 1st Hokage
3. Kabuto (Oro Mode)
4. Madara
5. 4th Hokage
6. Pain
7. Jiraya ( Still better than naruto without sage) 
8. Kakashis Dad ( It is said that he?s stronger than sannin)
9. Itachi
10. Orochimaru
11. Tsunade
12. Kakashi
13. Gai
14. Killer Bee
15.Raikage
16. Naruto
17. Kisame
18. Sasuke
19. Gaara
20. Konan

BTW who the hell is ,,A?? ????


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## Thunder (May 4, 2010)

Sure, I agree they should be able to be used longer then before, but not forever of course.


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## daschysta (May 4, 2010)

Which is why I said perpetual _FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES_

He was basically able to spam it the entire Raikage fight and for most of the danzou fight. This is with the negative side effects of the MS on his stamina and eyesight. 

If EMS alleviates just a bit of these he should be able to maintain full susanoo over the course of an entire battle.

This just means however that his future opponents will all devise ways of countering it somehow as always happens in battle manga.

But is should put him easily above the raikage that he fought during the kage summit arc.


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## Thunder (May 4, 2010)

Ah sorry, I missed that part of your post.


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## Big Mom (May 4, 2010)

kstark2009 said:


> 1. 3th Hokage (young)
> 2. 1st Hokage
> 3. Kabuto (Oro Mode)
> 4. Madara
> ...



A is the fourth and current raikage. Pretty good list except:

Kisame should be above Itachi. Konan above others as well. Plus Naruto and Sasuke can kill Gai and kakashi. Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu can kill them as well.


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## Big Mom (May 4, 2010)

Feats Only-

Sorry for double post

1) Pain
2) Hiruko
3) Danzo
4) Kisame
5) Sasuke
6) Naruto
7) Killer Bee
8) Itachi
9) Jiraiya
10) Orochimaru
11) Sasori
12) Yugito Nii
13) A
14) Deidara
15) Tsunade
16) Kakuzu
17) Gaara
18) Kakashi
19) Gai
20) Kabuto


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 4, 2010)

How the hell is Sarutobi, even as Prime, above Pain? Pain has shown the strongest abilities in the manga, you guys do know that right?


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## dungsi27 (May 5, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How the hell is Sarutobi, even as Prime, above Pain? Pain has shown the strongest abilities in the manga, you guys do know that right?



We havent seen the true power of the Third yet so it's very hard to judge.Who know whatever crazy jutsus Prime Sarutobi could use?If we only consider who's stronger than who based on the feat we have seen then I can say something like Ino is stronger than Sakumo Hatake or something like that.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 5, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How the hell is Sarutobi, even as Prime, above Pain? Pain has shown the strongest abilities in the manga, you guys do know that right?



Not really, Killer Bee and Kabuto are stronger. Kabuto himself can Summon Nagato, and have him recreate a Rikudou Pain. EMS Sasuke will likely be much stronger too.

But I agree about Sarutobi. He was strong, but he's getting too overrated.  I seriously doubt Kishimoto intended to keep him above monsters like Pain, it greatly hampers their credibility and threat level. And while he was intended to be the strongest Hokage and stuff in Part I, that's changed in Part II. He is no longer as important a character in regards of strength as Hashirama and Minato still are, the former for defeating Madara and the second for holding his own against the same Madara (albeit weakened) and being called the greatest shinobi by both Kakashi and Jiraiya. 

Unlike Sarutobi, they lived up to their hype, and their hype makes sense. Sarutobi's does not any more. 

In his prime, he was much more powerful, but do people seriously think he was more than twice or three times as strong as his old age only? When you're in your prime, you are much stronger than when you're old and out of practice, but only by twice or a bit more. Pain is more than 10x stronger than Sarutobi, hell he seems a hundred times stronger and so do many of the characters such as Itachi, Orochimaru Hydra, HM Jiraiya, Sennin Naruto, Sasuke, Killer Bee and the 4th Raikage.

Kishimoto dropped the idea of him being such a powerhouse, as he simply has no reason to be up that high, it makes the current powerhouses, both heroes and villains, look stupid.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 5, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Not really, Killer Bee and Kabuto are stronger. Kabuto himself can Summon Nagato, and have him recreate a Rikudou Pain. EMS Sasuke will likely be much stronger too.


Killer Bee is not stronger than Nagato, who has all the perfect tools to beat and capture/or if bloodlusted, kill him. 

And Kabuto has only shown the Edo Tensei, that doesn't put him above Pain. Hell, Pain has the perfect technique to destroy the Edo Tensei.

Finally EMS Sasuke will not be stronger. What can his abilities do against Pain in the slightest?

And you do know that Nagato can use all the abilities that the Paths used, right?


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 6, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Killer Bee is not stronger than Nagato, who has all the perfect tools to beat and capture/or if bloodlusted, kill him.
> 
> And Kabuto has only shown the Edo Tensei, that doesn't put him above Pain. Hell, Pain has the perfect technique to destroy the Edo Tensei.
> 
> ...



Nagato can use all the abilities that the Paths used. And funnily enough, Kabuto has not only the same Nagato under his hands, but can even have him reconstruct 6 new Realms from scratch if necessary. And he has Deidara, Itachi, Sasori and Kakuzu too, and that final body which shocked even Madara.

Pain could try taking souls with Human Realm, but Human won't last long as Itachi could easily incinerate him with Amaterasu. The others Kabuto's Nagato and Deidara can polish off easily and efficiently.

EMS Sasuke will be stronger - Naruto is a shonen, after all. Pain was the last antagonist, the next one for Naruto to face is, obviously, Sasuke. And the common theme of all shonen is that usually the main antagonist who comes next is stronger than the one before him (e.g. in DBZ, Androids 17 and 18 being stronger than Frieza, Cell being stronger than the Androids, Majin Vegeta stronger than Cell, Buu stronger than Majin Vegeta, etc...) 

I see no reason why Pain should stay stronger than someone who is destined to be one of Naruto's ultimate and most important antagonists to face, and keep in mind Naruto alone could give Pain a solid challenge and defeat him if all went well, and Sasuke equalled him before EMS. With EMS, he'd gain a new jutsu, Itachi's Totsuka Sword and Yata no Kagami, and probably receive a solid MS power boost all around - which will likely make him stronger than Pain.

Killer Bee is stronger, the only reason why KN6-KN8 were losing was because they lacked the intelligence to deal with Pain, but Killer Bee unfortunately is in full control of all his states and has more to offer than just Menacing Balls. If KN6 or KN8 had Naruto in control, Pain would have been annihilated. Remember that the Kyubi is what it will take for Naruto to defeat a full-powered Madara that will be even stronger than before, much stronger, and if that's the case, KN6-KN8 would destroy Pain if under control.

Power is important, but presence of mind even more so. Kyubi has all power but no brains. Bee has a lot of power, and more than enough brains. And more often than not, brains decide how a battle wins - even more so than power alone. In the ninja world, intelligence is the ultimate key to victory as it is a world of deception, secrecy, etc...

Pain possessed so much power, but had it not been for his overconfidence and gimping himself by using CST when he knew Naruto was coming with Sage Techniques, deciding to test the Kyubi's powers out (fighting Kyubi is something which Nagato supporters assert weakened Pain, but how can dead bodies be even weakened) and so on.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 6, 2010)

Naruto U.
Sasuke U.
Itachi U.
Madara U.
Jiraiya S.
Tsunade S.
Kakashi H.
3rd Hokage
1st Hokage
Neji H.
Gai S.
Pein (Negato)
Kisame H.
Sakura H.(Choza & Choji A. as well)
Grandma Chiyo
Killer Bee K.
Raikage K.
Kabuto Y.
Yamato S.
Sai E.


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## Cole (May 6, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Naruto U.
> Sasuke U.
> Itachi U.
> Madara U.
> ...


-__- Choji cannot beat Killer Bee, pretty much this entire list needs fixing.


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## Thunder (May 6, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Naruto U.
> Sasuke U.
> Itachi U.
> Madara U.
> ...



You have Neji and Gai above Pain and Kisame? Sakura, Choji and Choza above Chiyo, Bee, Raikage and Kabuto who are all S-ranked? There are a lot of things wrong with this list, but those are the most disturbing....I don't know what you were thinking, but this is just...terrible.


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## Immortal (May 6, 2010)

Turrin said:


> indeed Itachi is way too high; there are some other problems with it as well, but thats the most glaring



Nahhh, Itachi is the strongest shinobi in the Naruto universe except for the founder of ninjutsu himself.


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## Intus Legere (May 6, 2010)

I'd rather divide them in groups:

1. 
      Rikudou Sennin

2. 
      Madara Uchiha
      Hashirama Senju
      Nagato
      Minato Namikaze
      Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)

3. 
      Sasuke Uchiha
      Naruto Uzumaki
      Itachi Uchiha
      Jiraiya
      Danzo

4. 
      Orochimaru
      Raikage
      Killerbee
      Kisame Hoshigaki

5. 
      Sasori
      Kakuzu
      Gaara
      Tsunade
      Deidara

Special mentions to Tobirama Senju (Nidaime Hokage) and Sakumo Hatake (The White Fang) and Hanzou, I'm not certain where I'd place those three.


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## Sanbi (May 6, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Naruto U.
> Sasuke U.
> Itachi U.
> Madara U.
> ...


Sai above Orochimaru or Danzo? Chiyo, Chouji, Chouza and Sakura above Kirabi, Raikage and Kabuto? Gai and Neji above Pain and Kisame? Hashirama below Kakashi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Itachi, Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke? Itachi above Madara? Sasuke and Naruto above Madara, Itachi and Jiraiya? And all the other horrendous choices, this is the worst list by far.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 7, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Sai above Orochimaru or Danzo? Chiyo, Chouji, Chouza and Sakura above Kirabi, Raikage and Kabuto? Gai and Neji above Pain and Kisame? Hashirama below Kakashi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Itachi, Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke? Itachi above Madara? Sasuke and Naruto above Madara, Itachi and Jiraiya? And all the other horrendous choices, this is the worst list by far.



How are Sasuke and Naruto not above Itachi and Jiraiya?

But I agree, the rest of his list is balderdash.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 7, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Naruto U.
> Sasuke U.
> Itachi U.
> Madara U.
> ...



That's a...Interesting list.

I don't see how Sai and Yamato are on the list. They're strong, but have virtually no offense capabilities. Yamato's defenses are flimsy and his offenses are weak and easily avoidable. Sai can fly, but what can he attack with? Ink snakes, tigers and a tip less knife?

Also, why is Chiyo above Killer Bee and the Raikage? Killer Bee's Raiton blades could easily pierce through her Chakra shield, his Shrouded forms(V1 and V2) would absolutely destroy her puppets too due to it's defensive and offensive properties. The puppets couldn't even hurt the Raikage, if his Raiton Armour deflected Chidori Gatana, Chiyo's attacks aren't going to be sufficient.

I also don't see why Sakura along with Choza and Chouji(why are there three people?) are there. Choza and Chouji are physically, quite strong. But their attacks are very linear, and in most cases going "big" just makes them a bigger target for attacks. Sakura is physically quite strong, but many people can "tank" her punches and due to the massive build up and momentum of the swing it leaves her defenseless for a split second. Her attacks are also quite linear due to the large swings and such and it comes at the expense of Chakra(her attack is only strong because she focuses her Chakra into her fist and releases it upon contact) and if it misses, it's Chakra wasted. Her stamina isn't exactly the greatest thing in the world either. Her Medical jutsu could help in fights, but most people who can make it to the top 20 list have attacks that either kill you in one shot depending on where it hits or can't be healed via Medical jutsu. It requires time and concentration to use anyway, something most people wouldn't provide.

Gai is understandable, but why is Neji so high up? He can only attack in close quarters, practically everyone who are in the top 20 can fight at close and long range. A few of them also have alternate sources of Chakra to unblock the blocked Tenketsus. Many of their jutsu can also pierce the Chakra expensive Kaiten too, alternatively they could just wait after he stops spinning and then attack him while there is an opening. I can't possibly understand how he can be above people like the Raikage, Killer Bee and Pain(speaking of which why is he so low?). 

Then theres Tsunade and Pain's placements on the list...Why is Tsunade so high up and why is Pain so low? Tsunade deserves to be in the list, yes, but not so high up. Her attacks, like Sakura's, can be tanked(in the case of people like Sasori, Kakuzu(?) and Orochimaru) or dodged(most people with decent speed). Ranshinsho would certainly be a problem for most, but anyone with high level intelligence could figure out how to move their body, or again it can be avoided. Her only saving grace is Katsuyu(who is essentially a tanking machine with bad offensive power) and Souzou Saisei. But even then, Souzou Saisei basically turns her into an immobile old woman once the effects are gone. Pain should be self explanatory too, there are 6 entities(or 7 if you count this "Negeto" person). One can fire head "lazors" that destroy entire city blocks(+) has missiles and can tank one Rikari and two powerful punches from Choza and Chouji(who, incidentally are near Pain in placement in your list). Another one can summon various summons, ranging from birds, chameleons, lobsters and seemingly invincible Cerberus(s). The other main one can push and pull, and while that may sound pretty weak Shinra Tensei can negate most Ninjutsus and Bansho Tennin can be used for powerful combinations. The other 3 are pretty weak, but still useful. One can "revive" them, another one has good CQC abilities and the other one can absorb any Ninjutsu. Deva realm on his own also has Village leveling "Chou" Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. "Negeto" can revive people.

Madara...If it was "Prime" Madara, I could understand. But current Madara? He can't be hit and he can warp anywhere, but what about offensive abilities? He only has punches and kicks so far and he needs to become solid to even use them(anyone with half a brain could use this to their advantage).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Nagato can use all the abilities that the Paths used. And funnily enough, Kabuto has not only the same Nagato under his hands, but can even have him reconstruct 6 new Realms from scratch if necessary. And he has Deidara, Itachi, Sasori and Kakuzu too, and that final body which shocked even Madara.


An inferior Edo Tensei construct that does not have all the powers of the original. Same as the other bodies too. 


> Pain could try taking souls with Human Realm, but Human won't last long as Itachi could easily incinerate him with Amaterasu. The others Kabuto's Nagato and Deidara can polish off easily and efficiently.


Or just summon Gedo Mazu and use its soul sucking attack to call it a day. And Human Realm getting hit by Itachi Edo Tensei's Amaterasu is funny considering how fast he is.


> EMS Sasuke will be stronger - Naruto is a shonen, after all. Pain was the last antagonist, the next one for Naruto to face is, obviously, Sasuke. And the common theme of all shonen is that usually the main antagonist who comes next is stronger than the one before him (e.g. in DBZ, Androids 17 and 18 being stronger than Frieza, Cell being stronger than the Androids, Majin Vegeta stronger than Cell, Buu stronger than Majin Vegeta, etc...)


This isn't DBZ or a standard shonen. Naruto doesn't have a Sorting Algorithm of Evil. Its like One Piece for example, even with over 200 chapters since we last saw him, Crocodile was able to fight evenly with Akainu despite losing to an early Luffy who didn't even have the gates. 

Same thing in Naruto. Hell even first arc villains like Zabuza would be a challenge for the Rookies in Post-Timeskip to defeat. And other villains-Sasori, Deidara, Kakuzu, they'd still pose a danger to the Naruto and Sasuke even this far in. 

That's why Pain is most likely to stay the strongest. He's shown the strongest abilities, the best feats, and the best jutsus we've ever seen in the manga.


> I see no reason why Pain should stay stronger than someone who is destined to be one of Naruto's ultimate and most important antagonists to face, and keep in mind Naruto alone could give Pain a solid challenge and defeat him if all went well, and Sasuke equalled him before EMS. With EMS, he'd gain a new jutsu, Itachi's Totsuka Sword and Yata no Kagami, and probably receive a solid MS power boost all around - which will likely make him stronger than Pain.


If Naruto went up against a bloodlusted, 100% Pain during the Pain Arc, he would have been killed in few chapters. 

And Sasuke never equaled Pain before the EMS. He wasn't even CLOSE to Pain's level, and not only that, all of his attacks are food for Pain's Hungry Ghost to use. 

Until Sasuke can walk into a Major Village, take on its entire Shinobi Force, and win, I'll concede that he's stronger than Pain. Otherwise-he's no way as strong or stronger than Pain.


> Killer Bee is stronger, the only reason why KN6-KN8 were losing was because they lacked the intelligence to deal with Pain, but Killer Bee unfortunately is in full control of all his states and has more to offer than just Menacing Balls. If KN6 or KN8 had Naruto in control, Pain would have been annihilated. Remember that the Kyubi is what it will take for Naruto to defeat a full-powered Madara that will be even stronger than before, much stronger, and if that's the case, KN6-KN8 would destroy Pain if under control.


If Naruto could control the Kyubi right off the bat against Pain, he'd just have used a massive Chibaku Tensei to contain his Nine Tailed State and call it a day.

Or hell, send Hungry Ghost Realm to drain Killer Bee of all the Hachibi Chakra he tries to bring up, since the attack has no limit and could probably absorb a menacing ball.





> Pain possessed so much power, but had it not been for his overconfidence and gimping himself by using CST when he knew Naruto was coming with Sage Techniques, deciding to test the Kyubi's powers out (fighting Kyubi is something which Nagato supporters assert weakened Pain, but how can dead bodies be even weakened) and so on.


Since Nagato himself was weakened, he had shortened his life span and the bodies were recovering slower than usual, remember? And no, Pain just knew about Sage Techniques from his battle with Jiraiya, not that Naruto had them. 

Again, until I see Kabuto, Sasuke, or Killer Bee soloing an entire village like Pain did, I'll concede they are stronger. Otherwise, no way in hell.


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## Intus Legere (May 7, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> How are Sasuke and Naruto not above Itachi and Jiraiya?.



Actually, I feel the same as Sanbi — Naruto and Sasuke still haven't quite reached the levels of Jiraiya and Itachi, respectively. Though it is in no way absurd to disagree, since right now, there shouldn't be much of a difference in level among any of these four fighters.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 7, 2010)

1. Yakushi Kabuto
2. Uchiha Madara
3. Killer Bee
4. Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke
5. Rikudou Pain
6. Shimura Danzo
7. 4th Raikage
8. Uchiha Itachi
9. Akasuna no Sasori
10. Kakuzu
11. Deidara
12. Jiraiya
13. Orochimaru
14. Sabaku no Gaara
15. Hoshigaki Kisame
16. Tsunade/Terumi Mei
17. Onoki
18. Konan
19. Hidan
20. Maito Gai


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Wind Master, again show some feats that put Kabuto, Madara, Bee, Naruto, and Sasuke above Pain. Like walking into a Shinobi Village, taking on its entire ninja force, and destroying it.

Otherwise, they aren't on Pain's level.


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## Thunder (May 7, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> 1. Yakushi Kabuto
> 2. Uchiha Madara
> 3. Killer Bee
> 4. Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke
> ...



Good list Wind, buy why no Hashirama? He certainly has more hype then Hanzo


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> An inferior Edo Tensei construct that does not have all the powers of the original. Same as the other bodies too.
> 
> Or just summon Gedo Mazu and use its soul sucking attack to call it a day. And Human Realm getting hit by Itachi Edo Tensei's Amaterasu is funny considering how fast he is.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately, Naruto and Sasuke are the main characters, much more important than the rest of the Konoha 11. And no, Deidara and Sasori would be destroyed by Sennin Naruto and MS Sasuke. 

Human Realm is fast, but nothing proves he is as fast as the 4th Raikage, who was the only one to date to dodge Amaterasu directly. 

I don't see where you get Edo Tensei is inferior to the original bodies. That's just insane. They have the same strength as the originals, but are virtually indestructible and keep on coming at you without tiring. Nothing in the DBs or manga can prove that. 

Yes, Hashirama was not using even close to his full strength against Hiruzen during their battle, when resurrected by Edo Tensei, but this was because Orochimaru had him toy with the old 3rd Hokage - he said so himself. It's not that his actual power was limited, just his intelligence and skill were removed and he was turned into a mindless killing machine. And keep in mind that he was mainly so strong due to the Tailed Beasts he had under his control.

The major force of Konoha Pain obliterated was arguably fodder. Apart from Kakashi, there was no one there even close to being a challenge for S-Calss Nin like Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Orochimaru, Kisame and Itachi. Pain defeated the entire village with less than half his strength, those ninja would have crushed Konoha in those conditions. And if Kakashi didnt want to use Kamui, he would not probably win against many of these ninja. 

Konoha wasn't at full strength. ROOT didn't help out, Team Gai was absent, Kakashi didn't use Kamui when that was actually a smart move against the man who killed Jiraiya and the one who was repelling all other techniques easily. 

Yes, Pain knew Naruto had them or at least could have had them, and recognized them quickly. He read Shizune's mind and knew Naruto was training in the Sage Arts at Myobokuzan.

It takes time for Pain to use Chibaku Tensei, time to get close enough to Nagato, while KN4-KN6 can easily catch him with Shunshin and rip him apart. Once in KN4-KN9, Naruto is no more capable of independent thought and strategy, even of the most obvious sort, similar to what Orochimaru did with Edo Tensei. Making one of the strongest Kages (Hashirama) look like an Elite Jounin. 

Power is important, but cunning as much or even more so in the Ninja World. That's the way in which Naruto is different from other manga. Everything else functions like other manga, antagonists being stronger than the ones preceding them, etc...

Keep in mind that beasts like KN4-KN6 do not use Shunshin although it would be beastly coming off their monstrously high chakra combined with Naruto's okay chakra control, A-level or likely higher, which should be enough for speed-blitzing Yahiko Realm. And then bite his neck off. 

Maybe not in the case of most of the 11, but keep in mind Naruto and Sasuke are the true main characters. It's obvious that Kishimoto doesn't care about the others. These two are the ones the plot is centred around, not the rest of the 11 (bar Sakura whom again Kishi neglects).

This also happens in DBZ. In DBZ, Krillin is still weaker than Cell, while Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are easily so much stronger. Yamcha is still weaker than Frieza, but even Goten and Trunks are stronger than him. Why? Because while they're important characters, the story is centred around the Saiyans only.

And Lord of Thunder, I was making a list about non-hype characters, you know, the ones we have


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Unfortunately, Naruto and Sasuke are the main characters, much more important than the rest of the Konoha 11. And no, Deidara and Sasori would be destroyed by Sennin Naruto and MS Sasuke.


Not necessarily, both ave Hax attacks that would pose a danger to Sage Mode Naruto and MS Sasuke. Deidara has C4 which would kill Naruto, and a single scratch of Sasori's poison would put MS Sasuke out of the fight, and Sasori DOES have Iron Sand to deal with Amaterasu after all.


> Human Realm is fast, but nothing proves he is as fast as the 4th Raikage, who was the only one to date to dodge Amaterasu directly.


Though due to the slow burn, Hungry Ghost Realm can support Human Realm and get the Amaterasu off of him. 

And there is Gedo Mazo-aka the most hax technique in the series.


> I don't see where you get Edo Tensei is inferior to the original bodies. That's just insane. They have the same strength as the originals, but are virtually indestructible and keep on coming at you without tiring. Nothing in the DBs or manga can prove that.


They are inferior because they are mindless. All sense of strategy and even self preservation have been eliminated. Thats a huge weakness that makes the zombies weaker.




> The major force of Konoha Pain obliterated was arguably fodder. Apart from Kakashi, there was no one there even close to being a challenge for S-Calss Nin like Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Orochimaru, Kisame and Itachi. Pain defeated the entire village with less than half his strength, those ninja would have crushed Konoha in those conditions. And if Kakashi didnt want to use Kamui, he would not probably win against many of these ninja.


There is no evidence that Konoha had less than half its strength, that's an excuse you keep using. It was a stronger, more prepared Konoha than the one that Orochimaru went up against. 


> Konoha wasn't at full strength. ROOT didn't help out, Team Gai was absent, Kakashi didn't use Kamui when that was actually a smart move against the man who killed Jiraiya and the one who was repelling all other techniques easily.


Danzo knew that if he sent ROOT to help Konoha, it would have made NO DIFFERENCE. There was no stopping Pain. Team Gai? What the fuck would Team Gai be able to accomplish? They could barely beat Shoten Kisame, and each of the bodies is equal to Jiraiya in power. How would Gai even make a difference against the Pains who pwned Jiraiya? And don't tell me the Gates would be the difference-they take precious time to get into, which Pain won't allow.

And as we saw in the anime, Kamui takes time to use even with the proficency that Kakashi uses now. If he misses, its all over. And God Realm's abilities probably fuck with it-Gravity vs Gravity.


> Yes, Pain knew Naruto had them or at least could have had them, and recognized them quickly. He read Shizune's mind and knew Naruto was training in the Sage Arts at Myobokuzan.


All that Pain found out from Shizune's mind was that Naruto was at Myobokuzan, not what he was doing. That's it.


> It takes time for Pain to use Chibaku Tensei, time to get close enough to Nagato, while KN4-KN6 can easily catch him with Shunshin and rip him apart. Once in KN4-KN9, Naruto is no more capable of independent thought and strategy, even of the most obvious sort, similar to what Orochimaru did with Edo Tensei. Making one of the strongest Kages (Hashirama) look like an Elite Jounin.


If God Realm and Nagato were close enough, Chibaku Tensei could have been use instantly. 


> Power is important, but cunning as much or even more so in the Ninja World. That's the way in which Naruto is different from other manga. Everything else functions like other manga, antagonists being stronger than the ones preceding them, etc...


Naruto is not the standard Shonen ninja. Even enemies all the way back in the first arc can post a challenge to the protagonists. 


> Keep in mind that beasts like KN4-KN6 do not use Shunshin although it would be beastly coming off their monstrously high chakra combined with Naruto's okay chakra control, A-level or likely higher, which should be enough for speed-blitzing Yahiko Realm. And then bite his neck off.


God Realm was able to catch SM Jiraiya's punches and dodge a Raikiri at point blank.



> This also happens in DBZ. In DBZ, Krillin is still weaker than Cell, while Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are easily so much stronger. Yamcha is still weaker than Frieza, but even Goten and Trunks are stronger than him. Why? Because while they're important characters, the story is centred around the Saiyans only.


Naruto and Dragon Ball Z are completely different when it comes to the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. With antagonists like Itachi, Kisame, Kakuzu, Pain, Sasori, and Deidara, they are still a danger to Sasuke and Naruto even when they get to be their strongest. 

Pain, due to the most hax abilities we ever seen from him, is more than likely to stay the strongest in the manga.


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

I agree with Supersaiyaman12, Pain is the strongest one so far in the manga (not including Rikudo Sage)


IMO, second would be Itachi (by feats)


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## Angoobo (May 7, 2010)

^^Lol at Itachi being second...
Minato, Hashirama, Madara, Tobirama, Hiruzen, A...are all way stronger than him.


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> I agree with Supersaiyaman12, Pain is the strongest one so far in the manga (not including Rikudo Sage)
> 
> 
> IMO, second would be Itachi (by feats)



 at itachi being second
madara, shodaime, minato, tobirama and hiruzen shit on him


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## Gigo (May 7, 2010)

Tobirama and Hiruzen being stronger than Itachi?!?! Are you kiddind me? Maybe Hiruzen could put up a decent fight, but that's it. Being Hokage does not automatically make you stronger than non-Hokage shinobi.


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Gigo said:


> Tobirama and Hiruzen being stronger than Itachi?!?! Are you kiddind me?



hiruzen surpassed the first and second hokage and tobirama had edo tensei


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## Gigo (May 7, 2010)

Tobirama never had Edo Tensei. It was Orochimaru, who summoned Tobirama via Edo Tensei, Tobirama can't do this jutsu.


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^Lol at Itachi being second...
> Minato, Hashirama, Madara, Tobirama, Hiruzen, A...are all way stronger than him.




I might agree that Minato, Hashirama and Madara is stronger than Itachi, but i said by feats. Seriously, Tobirama? That guy died against 20 fodder characters.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Gigo said:


> Tobirama never had Edo Tensei. It was Orochimaru, who summoned Tobirama via Edo Tensei, Tobirama can't do this jutsu.


Wrong. Gigo, Tobirama _invented_ Edo Tensei. You did see the chapter where Kabuto talks how he surpassed the previous users, right? Tobirama invented it, Orochimaru improved it, and Kabuto perfected it.



Karl said:


> I might agree that Minato, Hashirama and Madara is stronger than Itachi, but i said by feats. Seriously, Tobirama? That guy died against 20 fodder characters.


Tobirama invented Edo Tensei, could do complex Water Jutsus with a single hand seal, fought the Uchiha for years, and the ninja he fought were some of the best bounty hunters that Kumo had to offer, hell for all we know, the first or second Raikage were in that squad.


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> at itachi being second
> madara, shodaime, minato, tobirama and hiruzen shit on him



If you think that Tobirama could defeat Itachi, then obviously, you don't pay attention to the manga.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> If you think that Tobirama could defeat Itachi, then obviously, you don't pay attention to the manga.


Dude, Tobirama created Edo Tensei. He was the strongest ninja in Konoha after his brother, fought Uchiha for _years_, presumably fought Madara, could do complex water jutsus with a single seal...

Yeah, Itachi isn't good against him.


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> I might agree that Minato, Hashirama and Madara is stronger than Itachi, but i said by feats. Seriously, Tobirama? That guy died against 20 fodder characters.



might agree man you should agree madara, shodaime and minato are on a different level than itachi and tobirama didnt die vs 20 fodders he died vs 20 of kumo best



Gigo said:


> Tobirama never had Edo Tensei. It was Orochimaru, who summoned Tobirama via Edo Tensei, Tobirama can't do this jutsu.



tobirama invented edo tensei



Karl said:


> If you think that Tobirama could defeat Itachi, then obviously, you don't pay attention to the manga.



what can itachi do to edo tensei


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, Tobirama created Edo Tensei. He was the strongest ninja in Konoha after his brother, fought Uchiha for _years_, presumably fought Madara, could do complex water jutsus with a single seal...
> 
> Yeah, Itachi isn't good against him.



Well, Itachi isn't an ordinary Uchiha. How will his silly water jutsus work against Susano'o? With the two legendary items. I can't even see how Tobirama can deal with Amaterasu.



naruto the best said:


> might agree man you should agree madara, shodaime and minato are on a different level than itachi and tobirama didnt die vs 20 fodders he died vs 20 of kumo best
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hmm... what can Itachi do against edo tensei... hmm... maybe seal them with Susano'o?


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> Hmm... what can Itachi do against edo tensei... hmm... maybe seal them with Susano'o?



and how long can itachi hold susano again


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> and how long can itachi hold susano again



That's unknown. But while Itachi were blinded and had a disease, he hold it enough for finishing off Orochimaru.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> That's unknown. But while Itachi were blinded and had a disease, he hold it enough for finishing off Orochimaru.


Susano'o's a huge double-edged sword for Itachi. He sacrifices mobility and agility, blinds himself (has to rely on his hearing) and reach for insane defenses.



Karl said:


> Well, Itachi isn't an ordinary Uchiha. How will his silly water jutsus work against Susano'o? With the two legendary items. I can't even see how Tobirama can deal with Amaterasu.


Yeah, he's an extemely low stamina Uchiha, and silly water jutsus? Dear god stop it with the Itachi wank. 

And Amaterasu is something Itachi rarely uses due to his poor stamina, same with all MS abilities.


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> That's unknown. But while Itachi were blinded and had a disease, he hold it enough for finishing off Orochimaru.



well idk caught orochimaru off guard but i just don't see his sealing the zombies then facing tobirama especially with his low stamina


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## Atlantic Storm (May 7, 2010)

You guys think a featless guy who got his leg blown off by an old guy is stronger than Itachi?


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o's a huge double-edged sword for Itachi. He sacrifices mobility and agility, blinds himself (has to rely on his hearing) and reach for insane defenses.



Like i said before, while he were blinded and had a disease, he finished of Orochimaru. I wonder how long he could hold Susano'o without the sickness. 




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, he's an extemely low stamina Uchiha, and silly water jutsus? Dear god stop it with the Itachi wank.




Itachi outlasted Sasuke.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Amaterasu is something Itachi rarely uses due to his poor stamina, same with all MS abilities.




 ... that was just a sad excuse. 


I can't believe you guys, Tobirama has only shown us three - four jutsus, and you put him above Itachi?:rofl



Atlantic Storm said:


> You guys think a featless guy who got his leg blown off by an old guy is stronger than Itachi?





So true, + reps.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 7, 2010)

By hype he can probably be put above Itachi. But from feats, he can't. He's only shown two Suitons and some poor Taijutsu feats.


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> well idk caught orochimaru off guard but i just don't see his sealing the zombies then facing tobirama especially with his low stamina



Uhm... a shadow clone Hiruzen was fast enough to catch two edo tensei zombies (Senju brothers). 

And Tobirama can't do a shit to Itachi while Susano'o is on.


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> You guys think a featless guy who got his leg blown off by an old guy is stronger than Itachi?



so i guess itachi>>shodaime to according to you, because he also got his leg blown off by the same old man



Karl said:


> Uhm... a shadow clone Hiruzen was fast enough to catch two edo tensei zombies (Senju brothers).
> 
> And Tobirama can't do a shit to Itachi while Susano'o is on.



again itachi can't even keep susano up for a long time


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> so i guess itachi>>shodaime to according to you, because he also got his leg blown off by the same old man
> 
> 
> 
> again itachi can't even keep susano up for a long time



Yeah, pretty much, by feats.



naruto the best said:


> again itachi can't even keep susano up for a long time




True, but, enough for finishing of Tobirama. 


And what about Amaterasu?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> True, but, enough for finishing of Tobirama.


Or Tobirama just outlasts him.



> And what about Amaterasu?


Amaterasu is dodgable, you know that?


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or Tobirama just outlasts him.
> 
> 
> Amaterasu is dodgable, you know that?




It is dodge able, but do you really think that Tobirama can dodge it? If you do, please explain how.


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## Judecious (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> Yeah, pretty much, by feats.



 so you think itachi>>hashirama


Karl said:


> True, but, enough for finishing of Tobirama.
> 
> 
> And what about Amaterasu?



no he won't because he would waste stamina on the zombies and tobirama should take it then

and amaterasu is dodgeable


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> It is dodge able, but do you really think that Tobirama can dodge it? If you do, please explain how.


Since Sasuke, without any need of a shunshun no jutsu, _outran it_ until he got into position.


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## Lord Potato (May 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since Sasuke, without any need of a shunshun no jutsu, _outran it_ until he got into position.




Amaterasu appears on you. 

And plus Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke!?!?!??!?!?

This is so stupid... whatever, believe whatever you want. This is getting stupid and boring.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> Amaterasu appears on you.
> 
> And plus Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke!?!?!??!?!?
> 
> This is so stupid... whatever, believe whatever you want. This is getting stupid and boring.


Amaterasu is a fireball, and he had to put Sasuke into life threatening situations to keep the ruse up. And Sasuke still _outran_ the Amaterasu, and you do know the Raikage dodged it, right?


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## Jinnobi (May 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu is a fireball



Fundamentally wrong. Amaretsu can be MADE into a fireball, but it simply appears on the target which the eye focuses on normally.


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## Lord Potato (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu is a fireball, and he had to put Sasuke into life threatening situations to keep the ruse up. And Sasuke still _outran_ the Amaterasu, and you do know the Raikage dodged it, right?



Sasuke is fast, Raikage is fast and Tobirama is not. What is your point?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Karl said:


> Sasuke is fast, Raikage is fast and Tobirama is not. What is your point?


Sasuke was using NO JUTSU whatsoever to outrun the Amaterasu. Tobirama could outrun it, or use a kawarimi, or any of the other means to avoid a fatal blow.


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## Lord Potato (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke was using NO JUTSU whatsoever to outrun the Amaterasu. Tobirama could outrun it, or use a kawarimi, or any of the other means to avoid a fatal blow.



How will Tobirama be able to react if Amaterasu APPEARS on you.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke was using NO JUTSU whatsoever to outrun the Amaterasu. Tobirama could outrun it, or use a kawarimi, or any of the other means to avoid a fatal blow.



You know what? Just forget it. 

To think that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi? You must be an Itachi hater.


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## Panos (May 8, 2010)

Minato is not on a different level than Itachi.


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## Judecious (May 8, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> Minato is not on a different level than Itachi.



yes he is

itachi is great but him and killer bee have to be the most overrated characters in this forum


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## Lord Potato (May 8, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> yes he is
> 
> itachi is great but him and killer bee have to be the most overrated characters in this forum



Lol. I can agree that Killerbee is overrated, but Itachi is underrated here. To think that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi?


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## Judecious (May 8, 2010)

Karl said:


> Lol. I can agree that Killerbee is overrated, but Itachi is underrated here. To think that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi?



i know his brother to. well the hardcore itachi fans think he could beat pain which i just can't see

but with tobirama it just depends on how you look at it.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 8, 2010)

I would say Killer Bee, Tsunade, Kabuto and the 4th Raikage are seriously underestimated, while Itachi, Pain, Tobirama and Prime Hiruzen are grossly overestimated.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> I would say Killer Bee, Tsunade, Kabuto and the 4th Raikage are seriously underestimated, while Itachi, Pain, Tobirama and Prime Hiruzen are grossly overestimated.


For Pain, I wouldn't say that. His feats are pretty much untouchable right now, Wind Master. Effortlessly destroying the strongest Sannin-Jiraiya, taking on the strongest Ninja Village, beating Kakashi effortlessly, beating the entire village of Konoha, effortlessly coordinating everything with flawless tactical precision, destroying the village of Konoha, fighting Sage Mode Naruto and beating him after losing five bodies, beating KN6 Naruto with a Chibaku Tensei, KN8 Naruto restrained by the same Chibaku Tensei he created just for the six tail state, fighting Sage Mode then base mode Naruto, then reviving everyone in Konoha? Yeah, that proves he is the strongest.

Who else can boast a mass revival technique with so little chakra left anyway?


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## Judecious (May 8, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> I would say Killer Bee, Tsunade, Kabuto and the 4th Raikage are seriously underestimated, while Itachi, Pain, Tobirama and Prime Hiruzen are grossly overestimated.



well bee is powerful but i don't get why some think he could beat pain. i think itachi might be able to take him. i agree people underrate tsunade, she fought kabuto when he had all the advantage and she was out drinking for the past how many years


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## Angoobo (May 8, 2010)

Karl said:


> If you think that Tobirama could defeat Itachi, then obviously, you don't pay attention to the manga.



You're the one who don't pay attention to the manga.

Tobirama lost to 20 elite shinobi ( imagine a team of 20 kakashi). I doubt Itachi would survive against only 3 kakashi.


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## Panos (May 8, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> You're the one who don't pay attention to the manga.
> 
> Tobirama lost to 20 elite shinobi ( imagine a team of 20 kakashi). I doubt Itachi would survive against only 3 kakashi.



This is one of the worst arguments i have ever seen you using GodItachi.

Tobirama might have been killed by one of these twenty Elite Shinobis. We have no significant or substancial info to be used as an argument for any of the two sides.

However, judging from Itachi's display against kakashi in part 1 i am totally sure he could have given a decent fight against 20 of them.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For Pain, I wouldn't say that. His feats are pretty much untouchable right now, Wind Master. Effortlessly destroying the strongest Sannin-Jiraiya, taking on the strongest Ninja Village, beating Kakashi effortlessly, beating the entire village of Konoha, effortlessly coordinating everything with flawless tactical precision, destroying the village of Konoha, fighting Sage Mode Naruto and beating him after losing five bodies, beating KN6 Naruto with a Chibaku Tensei, KN8 Naruto restrained by the same Chibaku Tensei he created just for the six tail state, fighting Sage Mode then base mode Naruto, then reviving everyone in Konoha? Yeah, that proves he is the strongest.
> 
> Who else can boast a mass revival technique with so little chakra left anyway?



I think your exaggerating a bit.

He lost four bodies against Jiraiya, if not for his secret, it's possible he would've lost them all. Jiraiya had a disadvantage against him, Pain knew many of his abilities whereas Jiraiya knew little of Pain's abilities. 

He destroyed Konoha, but it wasn't at it's strongest. Where the hell were the Hyuugas? ROOT were hiding. Team Gai was out. Naruto was training. Sakura and Tsunade were healing. Jiraiya was dead. Essentially, the only "powerful" Ninja in Konoha that was fighting at the time was Kakashi.

I admit, nearly beating Sage Naruto was pretty impressive. But you have to consider losing the five other bodies actually meant Deva realm recieved _all_ of Nagato's Chakra, subsequently powering him up. He never beat the KN6 or KN8 either, he contained them. Even then the KN8 broke out.

Even so, apart from people like the Rikdou Sage, Prime Madara(?) he probably is the strongest.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 8, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think your exaggerating a bit.
> 
> He lost four bodies against Jiraiya, if not for his secret, it's possible he would've lost them all. Jiraiya had a disadvantage against him, Pain knew many of his abilities whereas Jiraiya knew little of Pain's abilities.
> 
> ...



This man speaks the truth.


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## Butt Hole lol (May 8, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> You're the one who don't pay attention to the manga.
> 
> Tobirama lost to 20 elite shinobi ( imagine a team of 20 kakashi). I doubt Itachi would survive against only 3 kakashi.



lol 20 kakashis, you do know that kakashi is kage level right? so Tobirama lost to 20kage level ninja's, it took 20 kage level ninjas to take him down...what a beast!!


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## Shinkurai (May 8, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think your exaggerating a bit.
> 
> He lost four bodies against Jiraiya, if not for his secret, it's possible he would've lost them all. Jiraiya had a disadvantage against him, Pain knew many of his abilities whereas Jiraiya knew little of Pain's abilities.



Pain was not familiar with many of Jiraiya's abilities. For example, he clearly did not know of Rasengan (Minato developed it, and I don't think Jiraiya even knew Minato at the time he trained Nagato, Yahiko, and Konan), he did not know of Senjutsu, and probably many more. Hell, Jiraiya even turned Pain's general knowledge of his abilities against him, by surprising him with Genjutsu. 

As for the big "secret" quote from Pain, it is often translated as "might have lost" rather than "would have lost"- and besides, the secret is only the identity of Nagato as the controller of the Pain Rikudo. The secret had nothing to do with the actual abilities of the bodies, whom Jiraiya could not handle. Hell, he ran away from three Pain bodies despite being in Sage Mode and knowing practically all there is to know of those bodies' abilities (Preta's Absorption, Animal's Summonings, and Human's Taijutsu/Speed).

Jiraiya vs. the Pain Rikudo with killer intent would likely be a very short battle indeed. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/10/]He destroyed Konoha, but it wasn't at it's strongest. Where the hell were the Hyuugas? ROOT were hiding. Team Gai was out. Naruto was training. Sakura and Tsunade were healing. Jiraiya was dead. Essentially, the only "powerful" Ninja in Konoha that was fighting at the time was Kakashi.



How would Konoha being at its full power protect it from Chou Shinra Tensei? While I agree that the Konoha Pain fought was far from at its best, I don't think the presence of most people you listed would have actually have been able to stop Pain. After all, Kakashi + Backup could not do anything to the Deva Path alone, and Kakashi is, save for Jiraiya, Naruto, and (very very arguably) Tsunade, the strongest shinobi in Konoha. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/10/]I admit, nearly beating Sage Naruto was pretty impressive. But you have to consider losing the five other bodies actually meant Deva realm recieved _all_ of Nagato's Chakra, subsequently powering him up. He never beat the KN6 or KN8 either, he contained them. Even then the KN8 broke out.



Well, the Deva Path seemingly does not need to have all of Nagato's chakra focused on him for anything save for Chibaku Tensei/Chou Shinra Tensei-style attacks. And besides, the entire Pain Rikudo, at its fullest power and with killer intent, would have been able to destroy SM Naruto without too much trouble.

KN6 was effectively incapacitated, and KN8 would, had Nagato been at his full power, been captured by an even larger Chibaku Tensei. After all, Pain did imply that he could summon a larger Chibaku Tensei in order to finish KN8, and barely even appeared worried at its appearance. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/295/10/]Even so, apart from people like the Rikdou Sage, Prime Madara(?) he probably is the strongest.



No argument there. Prime Madara and Hashirama were both likely stronger than Pain, as was the Rikudo Sennin.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 8, 2010)

If Konoha was at it's best, they could've killed Deva _before_ he used Chou Shinra Tensei


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## Shinkurai (May 8, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> If Konoha was at it's best, they could've killed Deva _before_ he used Chou Shinra Tensei



How? The only one in Konoha who would have any genuine chance against Pain is Naruto, and even he would surely have been defeated if it wasn't for Pain's foolish use of Chou Shinra Tensei. Hell, the entirety of Team Gai could be soloed by a single boss-summon crushing Shinra Tensei, for instance.


----------



## Shinkurai (May 8, 2010)

Selim said:


> Are you kidding me?
> 
> Sage Naruto v Deva Path (1/6) = Naruto rapes without much effort.
> Hermit Jiraiya v Asura Path = Jiraiya rapes without much effort.
> ...



Sage Naruto vs. Deva Path: Though Sage Naruto could most likely destroy the Deva Path in a one-on-one battle, there are several ways Deva Path could, conceivably, win. He could use Chibaku Tensei or Chou Shinra Tensei, or he could use the hax of Bansho Tenshin + Chakra Rod to the face (which Naruto has few real counters for). Furthermore, a boss-summon crushing Shinra Tensei would deal great harm to even Sage Naruto (remember, it ruined a being who could tank the blasts of a fully-released Bijuu).

Hermit Jiraiya vs. Asura Path = No argument here. I sort of counted Jiraiya of the equation, because he was killed prior to the Pain invasion (or do you want to counter individuals like Sarutobi in as well?). If he were there, Pain would've been defeated.

Hachimon Gai vs. Human Path: Hachimon Gai would defeat the Human Path, but Gai, IC, would probably lose to it. The Human Path has strength and speed on par with Base Gai, and also possesses an ability (soul removal) which would come as an utter surprise and could one-shot Gai. Pain's chakra rods, if he manages to impale Gai with them, would also grant him victory, as several of them would render Gai incapable of movement.

Tsunade vs. Animal Path: She could take this match, but certainly not without effort. Hell, Animal could simply hide within his Chameleon, which Tsunade has no counter for.

Sakura vs. Preta Path: Are you joking? Sakura takes this without effort? Preta Path is _way_ faster than her, and could take her if it somehow grabs her. Or, it could simply run away from her and support the other bodies (who could, with the exception of Hell Path, destroy Sakura).

Yamato vs Hell Path: No argument here. 



Selim said:


> Then there's Danzō and Kakashi who can easily decimate the strongest bodies with their Dōjutsu, and the Rookie 12 who are all stronger than the weaker Realms of Pein Rikudō. Basically, all named characters could take out one of the weaker bodies by themselves let alone gangraping them with numbers.



Damn, I forgot Danzo. Maybe he would be able to tip the odds in Konoha's favor. 

All named characters could take out Pain's weaker realms? Seriously? Preta was not taken down by a massive amount of shinobi, and has displayed immense speed feats (intercepting the Rasenshuriken). The Human Path is an incredibly good close-combat fighter. The only Pain body with little-to-no combat functionality is Hell Path, but it is rarely used for fighting non-fodders. It's backup for Pain's stronger realms.



Selim said:


> There's a reason Nagato stuck to encountering fodder and using destructive, Deidara-like jutsu. He wouldn't win in a fight against Konoha's non-fodder ninja. Kakashi was held back by the plot from using his strongest technique offensively and still wrecked Asura Path and almost killed Deva Path twice. We have seen him use Kamui so well that he could conceivably instantly  all of Pein Rikudō and be tired and save his team mates the trouble.



This is a joke, right? Kakashi warping away all of the Pain Rikudo? Most of them are incredibly quick, and have countless ways to interrupt his large Kamui (Shinra Tensei, Missles, Summons, etc). Even he acknowledged that he "stood no chance" against the Deva Path and the Asura Path, implying that, even with Kamui, he could not defeat them both. 

As for PNJ- Pain was also hampered by it. When he first used Shinra Tensei against Kakashi, it could have been replaced with the buss-summon smashing Shinra Tensei, which would have instantly killed Kakashi.

And by the way, if Pain intended to crush Konoha, he could have immediately used Chibaku Tensei and soloed every single individual in Konoha.

Oh, and by the way, I read some of your threads that you posted links to in your sig. Excellent threads .


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## Shinkurai (May 8, 2010)

The Pain Rikudo could not defeat every single individual in Konoha in a straight-up fight, but- if Pain was fighting a large mass of individuals and had to destroy them all- he could simply revert to his nuke Jutsu, which could not be countered by nigh anyone in the manga. Deidara is a poor comparison, because C3 can be countered by several means (and has never displayed the ability to utterly destroy a village, anyway). It's a part of combat, and to state that Pain without it would lose is irrelevant.

Look, I'd be the first one to agree that Kakashi is a terribly underrated character. Maybe his Kamui would be able to nail part of the Pain Rikudo, but it would not keep him from being mowed over by the more powerful Paths.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> He lost four bodies against Jiraiya, if not for his secret, it's possible he would've lost them all. Jiraiya had a disadvantage against him, Pain knew many of his abilities whereas Jiraiya knew little of Pain's abilities.


Three bodies, not four. And to achieve it Ma and Pa needed to use Genjutsu, something that Jiraiya wasn't good at, and not only that, it was the most powerful genjutsu in the series. Jiraiya even said that even in Sage Mode, he would lose if he faces the Paths head on.


> He destroyed Konoha, but it wasn't at it's strongest. Where the hell were the Hyuugas? ROOT were hiding. Team Gai was out. Naruto was training. Sakura and Tsunade were healing. Jiraiya was dead. Essentially, the only "powerful" Ninja in Konoha that was fighting at the time was Kakashi.


The Hyugas were fighting all over Konoha, and presumably not doing too well against the paths. ROOT was hiding wisely, Danzo even said there was no stopping Pain. Team Gai would have made no difference, especially since they struggled to beat Shoten Kisame. Tsunade and Sakura trying to lessen casualties? Perish the thought! 


> I admit, nearly beating Sage Naruto was pretty impressive. But you have to consider losing the five other bodies actually meant Deva realm recieved _all_ of Nagato's Chakra, subsequently powering him up. He never beat the KN6 or KN8 either, he contained them. Even then the KN8 broke out.


God Realm beat Sage Mode Naruto, KN6 with the Chibaku Tensei, and held KN8 in it as well. He effectively beat it.


> Even so, apart from people like the Rikdou Sage, Prime Madara(?) he probably is the strongest.


Prime Madara has to be even more overestimated than Prime Hiruzen. Just because he can summon and control Kyubi he's stronger than Pain? 

Need I remind you he fled with his tail between his legs when he lost the Kyubi to Minato? And that he couldn't even hope to face Konoha without the aid of Kyubi?



Selim said:


> Sage Naruto v Deva Path (1/6) = Naruto rapes without much effort.


So that's why Sage Naruto won...oh wait, he lost to God Realm in a few seconds after God Realm regained his powers.


> Hermit Jiraiya v Asura Path = Jiraiya rapes without much effort.


You do know that Demon Realm _yanked_ of Jiraiya's arm and made him flee, right? Demon Realm manhandles Sage Mode level fighters.


> Hachimon Gai v Human Path = Gai rapes without much effort.


No, he doesn't. Hell Human Realm can kill him before Gai even gets into the gates, yanking out his soul.


> Tsunade v Animal Path = Tsunade rapes without much effort.


You do know that Animal Realm made Jiraiya flee and force him into Sage Mode right? How does Tsunade rape?


> Sakura v Preta Path = Sakura rapes without much effort.


You're kidding. Sakura gets destroyed by Hungry Ghost Realm. Hungry Ghost is faster, stronger, and neutralizes all of Sakura's abilities. Hell _if_ she lands a punch, it'll be a normal, non strengthened punch because Hungry Ghost will have eaten her chakra.


> Yamato v Hell Path = Yamato rapes without much effort.


No, he really doesn't. Hell Realm fought many ninja, interrogating and killing them with ease. He's a supplementary body, but he's insanely strong and durable. Hell he wasn't even taken out by a fucking _Rasengan_. Mokuton would pose a challenge, but Hell Realm would eventually win.


> Then there's Danzō and Kakashi who can easily decimate the strongest bodies with their Dōjutsu


Danzo can't really DO anything to Pain. If he could, he would have. And Kakashi's Kamui _does not work that way._


> and the Rookie 12 who are all stronger than the weaker Realms of Pein Rikudō.


All the Pain bodies are on Jiraiya's level of power. So no, the other members of the Konoha 11 can't take the 'weaker' realms out.


> Basically, all named characters could take out one of the weaker bodies by themselves let alone gangraping them with numbers.


No, they really couldn't. You really are disrespecting Pain's powers if you think the Rookies could even beat one if their name isn't Naruto.


> There's a reason Nagato stuck to encountering fodder and using destructive, Deidara-like jutsu.


Dear god, stop calling everyone who Pain beat fodder since you don't like that Pain beat everyone he encountered.


> He wouldn't win in a fight against Konoha's non-fodder ninja. Kakashi was held back by the plot from using his strongest technique offensively and still wrecked Asura Path and almost killed Deva Path twice.


Yes, he could have. Kakashi can't use Kamui like you're claiming in the first place, only wrecked Demon Realm after it had been _damaged_ in a sneak attack by Choza and Choji, and I doubt he could have broke the five second limit even with Raikiri. 

If Kakashi could use Kamui right off the bat, he would have used it against Kakuzu. But no, he didn't. He can't use it right off the bat, and if he misses, its all over due to his low stamina. FINALLY, how the fuck would it work against _another character with Gravity Powers_?

You are again, underestimating Pain and pushing your favorites.


> We have seen him use Kamui so well that he could conceivably instantly  all of Pein Rikudō and be tired and save his team mates the trouble.


You notice that he only used it _when he had no choice_, and that's an arc after Pain. Kakashi rarely uses Kamui offensively or even in battle due to its charge time and due to its after effects. Kakashi has low stamina, if he misses with Kamui, he's exhausted and is a easy target.

Stop underestimating Pain because you dislike his raping of Konoha, Selim. Pain faced Konoha at its strongest and one. All the bodies are on Jiraiya's level, so no, the Konoha 11 (other than Naruto) and Gai can't beat them.


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## Epyon (May 8, 2010)

Great post SuperSaiyaman12, glad to see you finally came around but all of Pain's bodies are Jiraiya level? You do remember Hell Realm vs Kono don't you?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Epyon said:


> Great post SuperSaiyaman12, glad to see you finally came around but all of Pain's bodies are Jiraiya level? You do remember Hell Realm vs Kono don't you?


Hell Realm vs Konohamaru was happening at nearly the same time as God Realm vs Kakashi. And this is after Hell Realm pwned a bunch of Chunin and Jonin, even Ebisu, who Kakashi highly recommended. And even then, Hell Realm wasn't damaged in the slightest by Konohamaru's Rasengan, just momentarily stunned.


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## Epyon (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hell Realm vs Konohamaru was happening at nearly the same time as God Realm vs Kakashi. And this is after Hell Realm pwned a bunch of Chunin and Jonin, even Ebisu, who Kakashi highly recommended. And even then, Hell Realm wasn't damaged in the slightest by Konohamaru's Rasengan, just momentarily stunned.



It's more the fact that Kono was dodging him and could land the Rasengan when other bodies weren't hampered by the interference, not saying that he was weak, but I don't see him being Jiraiya level without Nagato channeling over all his chakra like he did with God Realm.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Epyon said:


> It's more the fact that Kono was dodging him and could land the Rasengan when other bodies weren't hampered by the interference, not saying that he was weak, but I don't see him being Jiraiya level without Nagato channeling over all his chakra like he did with God Realm.


Konohamaru used one of Naruto's tricks to land a blow against Hell Realm. Kage Bushin feint then Rasengan. However, the Rasengan didn't even damage Hell Realm. Nagato was also channeling his chakra to the other more combat ready Realms like Animal, Hungry Ghost, and Human.


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## Panos (May 8, 2010)

Tsukuyomi is the most powerful Genjutsu in the series.


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## Epyon (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Konohamaru used one of Naruto's tricks to land a blow against Hell Realm. Kage Bushin feint then Rasengan. However, the Rasengan didn't even damage Hell Realm. Nagato was also channeling his chakra to the other more combat ready Realms like Animal, Hungry Ghost, and Human.





This was happening when Human Realm was stalking Shizune's group, God Realm was talking to Tsunade and Demon Realm was destroyed.


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## Turrin (May 8, 2010)

> All the bodies are on Jiraiya's level, so no, the Konoha 11 (other than Naruto) and Gai can't beat them.


This is simply not true; Jiraiya is a-lot stronger then the bodies individually. He even says he could defeat them easily one on one in the manga. The only realm that could stand up to Jiraiya 1v1 would be Deva Realm and thats only if he was in range of Nagato to the extent where he could use Chibaku Tensi.

Jiraiya was even shown to be stronger then 3 of the bodies combined; Realistically Jiraiya is not that much weaker then Pain/Nagato all he need to win was knowledge of Pain's secret(not even knowledge of his Techniques and Abilities).

I agree with the rest of what you said, but 1 Pain body is w/o a doubt not on Jiraiya's level.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Turrin said:


> This is simply not true; Jiraiya is a-lot stronger then the bodies individually. He even says he could defeat them easily one on one in the manga. The only realm that could stand up to Jiraiya 1v1 would be Deva Realm and thats only if he was in range of Nagato to the extent where he could use Chibaku Tensi.


Base Jiraiya level, not Sage Mode. In Base, Jiraiya was simply overwhelmed by Animal Realm and he needed to go into sage Mode.


> Jiraiya was even shown to be stronger then 3 of the bodies combined; Realistically Jiraiya is not that much weaker then Pain/Nagato all he need to win was knowledge of Pain's secret(not even knowledge of his Techniques and Abilities).


Jiraiya wasn't stronger than the three Pain bodies. He was forced to retreat, remember, even in Sage Mode? He even said if he kept fighting them directly, he would have been killed. 

Hence why he fled into the pipes, he needed someplace to fight them in an ambush style.


> I agree with the rest of what you said, but 1 Pain body is w/o a doubt not on Jiraiya's level.


All the Realms are more or less Jiraiya's base level. Hell Demon Realm _yanked off_ Jiraiya's arm, and he was in Sage Mode.


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## Kisame (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Prime Madara has to be even more overestimated than Prime Hiruzen. Just because he can summon and control Kyubi he's stronger than Pain?
> 
> Need I remind you he fled with his tail between his legs when he lost the Kyubi to Minato? And that he couldn't even hope to face Konoha without the aid of Kyubi?



Prime Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest hokage by the author and that minato and him are the strongest of the dead shinobi meaning they are stronger than the first who beat madara in his prime and madara now is weaker than before (according to him)
Madara is known as the strongest uchiha
and if jiraiya could somehow beat pain than he can also solo konoha lol


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## UltimateDeadpool (May 8, 2010)

01. Rikudou
02. Hashirama
03. Madara
04. Jiraiya = Itachi 

The rest.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> Prime Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest hokage by the author and that minato and him are the strongest of the dead shinobi meaning they are stronger than the first who beat madara in his prime and madara now is weaker than before (according to him)


Kishimoto never said that. Prime Hiruzen was known at the strongest Hokage, but he was far past his prime and very overrated.


> Madara is known as the strongest uchiha


And Nagato was still stronger than him.


> and if jiraiya could somehow beat pain than he can also solo konoha lol


Jiraiya could NEVER beat Pain, Nagato was just giving praise to his former teacher.


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## Bloo (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kishimoto never said that. Prime Hiruzen was known at the strongest Hokage, but he was far past his prime and very overrated.
> 
> And Nagato was still stronger than him.
> 
> Jiraiya could NEVER beat Pain, Nagato was just giving praise to his former teacher.



Everything in red is just speculation


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 8, 2010)

Mobius1 said:


> -__- Choji cannot beat Killer Bee, pretty much this entire list needs fixing.



Actually, the list is not in order. The list is quite perfect, except for me excluding Orochimaru, which in most cases, I should have. However, I think you need to take a look at my list again, tell me if there was a mistake with those specific characters as one of the most powerful ninja, please. I've looked at the list which was quite thorough, if I do say so myself. After all, it's an opinion, It's my say. Plus, it's only a subjective theory in terms of how I've seen it. Given their feat, I'd say my list is exactly how I want it. It's my personal opinion which is something you definately need to learn the concept of. I do not recall myself judging your list, wait, you did not make on, but you made sure to criticise mine. WHO DOES THAT!? You should learn how to respect boundaries, I know I've learned this simple & easy philosophy. Whatever, I think that I've chosen them wisely. I may need to replace the 1st with Orochimaru, other than that, I'm content with the previous listings. Here is my list, AGAIN (I'm sure you'd get a dim perception on the progress or changes I've made, hopefully) (NOT IN ORDER)
               Here:

Sasuke Uchiha.
Naruto Uzumaiki.
Jiraiya  Kyūshū -Monogatari.
Tsunade Senju.
Kakashi Hatake.
Pein-Negato (Rikuddo Sage)
Kisame Hoshigaki.
Killer Bee kumagakure.
Raikage Kumagakure.
Madara Uchiha.
Hiruzen Sarutobi.
Neji Hyuuga.
Danzou Shimura.
Itachi Uchiha.
Deidara Iwatoshi.
Grandma Chiyo.
Sai Emotionless. (Though Sai isn't his real name, but his ANBU code name)
Kabuto Yakushi. 
Hashirama Senju.
Sakura Haruno (Not Konan, Hidan, or Kazuzu, SAKURA!)

If I am able to have honorable mentions: Choji and Choza Akamichi, the Dark Power guy from Naruto Shippuuden's 2nd movie, Bonds. Also, the Chimara guy from Naruto Shippuuden's 3rd movie, Inheritors Of The Will Of Fire. Lastly, Asuma Hiruzen or Sarutobi, and Hidan/Kazuzu. Right, I also forgot Sasori. 

These are the most powerful ninja EVER, in Naruto. Personally, in my opinion, this is truly what I believe. Please evaluate yourself as well as me and my beliefs and boundaries before criticising, PEOPLE. Thankyou. (Kidding, but funny)


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 8, 2010)

...okay...your list makes no sense whatsoever. You don't even seem to have a sense of the powers in the Naruto universe, EpicFailPersin.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 8, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...okay...your list makes no sense whatsoever. You don't even seem to have a sense of the powers in the Naruto universe, EpicFailPersin.



Aren't you the same person who said that Itachi is a villain? Honestly, what do you know about the Naruto Universe? -snip- Did you not just read what I've stated about idiotic attacks against my own personal opinions? Look at my list again. Please tell me that the people I have listed weren't one of the most powerful Ninja in the Naruto Universe? I'm sure you should know.

You honestly have no judge in character considering your idea of what "Itachi should have done," would have just made the Naruto plot stupid, insignificant, and not cohesive. You were saying he should have told the secret which would have hastened war and increase the death rate in general of the Ninja World, you need to evaluate yourself and ideas before letting your isipidity run your selfish reasons and ideas oppose my own. You are one to talk. You're with out a doubt,-snip- SuperSaiyaMan12. Take note of this.


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## Thunder (May 8, 2010)

Honestly, Sakura doesn't belong on a top 20 list. Hidan, Kakazu or Konan can easily replace her. Sai doesn't belong on a top 20 list either.


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## Sanbi (May 8, 2010)

If it is not in order, then it is OK, but how did Sai, Neji, and Sakura make it over Gai, Kakuzu, Sasori, Hidan, Orochimaru and the Rikudo Sage?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 8, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Actually, the list is not in order. The list is quite perfect, except for me excluding Orochimaru, which in most cases, I should have. However, I think you need to take a look at my list again, tell me if there was a mistake with those specific characters as one of the most powerful ninja, please. I've looked at the list which was quite thorough, if I do say so myself. After all, it's an opinion, It's my say. Plus, it's only a subjective theory in terms of how I've seen it. Given their feat, I'd say my list is exactly how I want it. It's my personal opinion which is something you definately need to learn the concept of. I do not recall myself judging your list, wait, you did not make on, but you made sure to criticise mine. WHO DOES THAT!? You should learn how to respect boundaries, I know I've learned this simple & easy philosophy. Whatever, I think that I've chosen them wisely. I may need to replace the 1st with Orochimaru, other than that, I'm content with the previous listings. Here is my list, AGAIN (I'm sure you'd get a dim perception on the progress or changes I've made, hopefully) (NOT IN ORDER)



The Battledome is a debate form. We're not breaking boundaries and constructive criticism is good.
               Here:



> Sasuke Uchiha.
> Naruto Uzumaiki.
> Jiraiya  Kyūshū -Monogatari.
> Tsunade Senju.
> ...



Why is Sai and Sakura on there when people like Kakuzu, Rikudou Sage and Minato aren't?



> If I am able to have honorable mentions: Choji and Choza Akamichi, the Dark Power guy from Naruto Shippuuden's 2nd movie, Bonds. Also, the Chimara guy from Naruto Shippuuden's 3rd movie, Inheritors Of The Will Of Fire. Lastly, Asuma Hiruzen or Sarutobi, and Hidan/Kazuzu. Right, I also forgot Sasori.



Why are people like Sakura, Neji and Sai on but not Kakuzu, Sarutobi or Sasori?



> Did you not just read what I've stated about idiotic attacks against my own personal opinions? Look at my list again. Please tell me that the people I have listed weren't one of the most powerful Ninja in the Naruto Universe? I'm sure you should know.



The people you listed weren't the most powerful Ninja in the Naruto universe. Well, some of them weren't. But hey, it's your opinion.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 8, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Sai above Orochimaru or Danzo? Chiyo, Chouji, Chouza and Sakura above Kirabi, Raikage and Kabuto? Gai and Neji above Pain and Kisame? Hashirama below Kakashi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Itachi, Madara, Naruto, and Sasuke? Itachi above Madara? Sasuke and Naruto above Madara, Itachi and Jiraiya? And all the other horrendous choices, this is the worst list by far.



They aren't in ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is just a list. This does not guarentee their rank, GOD! I dislike when others are so quick to judge but your listings are no better considering you but the 4th on there without knowing quite exactly, ALL OF HIS ABILITIES. I was putting him on there, but all I know is that he has A GREAT transportation jutsu which from what I've seen in the Kakashi's past arc or whatever it is named, is quite flawed and not quite as sufficiant or perft as Madara's is. This is why he is not on the list. It's only specualtion that he was THAT good though in the show and manga, it was said that he was one of the best and strongest Hokage. Still, specualtion to revelation of his full power , which is yet to be revealed, it's safe to assume that he isn't eligible to be on the list yet until his powers are a lot more clear and apparent, and this is my final say. And I will not have you guys tell me other-wise. The list is not in order. So do you have a dim perception on what I was getting at when I was listing the characters? Please do not bother me with your puerility people. YES THIS IS A GENERAL STATEMENT as well as reference to the guy I've just quoted. Specifically. What is with you guys. I am sure with the list.



Atlantic Storm said:


> The Battledome is a debate form. We're not breaking boundaries and constructive criticism is good.
> Here:
> 
> 
> ...




Did you look at the list. I did put the Rikudo sage on there. I also put the 3rd Hokage on the list. I've written his full name as I did with the others. Sai is actually a perfect person on the list. The techniques we've seen of his are quite sufficiant enough for him to take out Deidara and Kazuzu. Obviously, if you have watched the anime. I may take back on Sakura Haruno, but then-again, she WILL get stronger. She just needs Genjutsu and she'd be extremely powerful, but hey, AGAIN, it is my opinion. Please respect it. This is all I ask. And thankyou. You weren't as rash as others, much appreciated. As seen on my profile, I am a "newbie," go easy on ME!   



Lord of Thunder said:


> Honestly, Sakura doesn't belong on a top 20 list. Hidan, Kakazu or Konan can easily replace her. Sai doesn't belong on a top 20 list either.



I may agree that Sakura Haruno does not belkong on there, but Sai does. I think you need to evaluate his abilities, and maybe then, you may get a dim perception on how quick, reliable, sufficiant, efficiant, and useful his abilitities are during that evaluation. Only Sakura, I'd say would not belong out there, but Sia does rank over Konana and Kazuzu.


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## Thunder (May 8, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> I may agree that Sakura Haruno does not belkong on there, but Sai does. I think you need to evaluate his abilities, and maybe then, you may get a dim perception on how quick, reliable, sufficiant, efficiant, and useful his abilitities are during that evaluation. Only Sakura, I'd say would not belong out there, but Sia does rank over Konana and Kazuzu.



Sai is skilled, yes, but not really top 20 material. How does Sai rank above Kakazu? He gave Kakashi, Ino, Shikamaru and Chouji a very hard time. His Iron Skin makes him impervious to most normal attacks besides Raiton, as Raiton>Doton. He also has 5 hearts, which means he must die 5 times. Kakazu's abilities and feats simply outweigh Sai's.

I see that you are new, so I'm not gonna give you a hard time about this. Welcome to NF.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 8, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> If it is not in order, then it is OK, but how did Sai, Neji, and Sakura make it over Gai, Kakuzu, Sasori, Hidan, Orochimaru and the Rikudo Sage?



Didn't you say so yourself, that if the list in not in order, it is okay? You did say that; I have it right here above. I dfo recall myself saying: THE LIST IS NOT IN ORDER!!!!

What part of this do you people not understand!!?!? It's an OPINION!          O-P-I-N-I-O-N!!! Wow. I am  finished for today with this thread and tired of the tenacity and ignorance of some of you guys. Completely obstinate for this continuation over my list, I'll tell and give you that. If you have anything else to say with the list, which I think is perfectly fine though I didn't recommend the 4th who's abilities are yet to be apparent and are speculation, please just skip it. It isn't changing. Next, I bet you guys are going to say that Naruto shouldn't be on the list, haha 

However, one thing I think I may need correction on as far as feat goes, is definately Madara Uchiha who is in the same category as Minato, the 4th Hokage. I just put Madara. Both of their feats are a tie considering all of their abilities are yet to be revealed. That is about it. You say it's crazy to Sakura yet Madara and Minato are the same and you put them both. Either one would be fine, but definately not both people.



Lord of Thunder said:


> Sai is skilled, yes, but not really top 20 material. How does Sai rank above Kakazu? He gave Kakashi, Ino, Shikamaru and Chouji a very hard time. His Iron Skin makes him impervious to most normal attacks besides Raiton, as Raiton>Doton. He also has 5 hearts, which means he must die 5 times. Kakazu's abilities and feats simply outweigh Sai's.
> 
> I see that you are new, so I'm not gonna give you a hard time about this. Welcome to NF.




Yes, I agree, and thankyou for welcoming me, haha 

Anyway, I've never watched the Kazuzu fight with Kakashi entirely, but I have seen how Asuma dies, and how Naruto does the Rasengan Shuriken, which was awesome by the way! I did not see how his hearts worked completely, but I've seen enough to know that Sai's abilities could definately match up against his. And you've said before, it's my opinion, haha.


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## Thunder (May 8, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Yes, I agree, and thankyou for welcoming me, haha
> 
> Anyway, I've never watched the Kazuzu fight with Kakashi entirely, but I have seen how Asuma dies, and how Naruto does the Rasengan Shuriken, which was awesome by the way! I did not see how his hearts worked completely, but I've seen enough to know that Sai's abilities could definately match up against his. And you've said before, it's my opinion, haha.



No problem. Well, I can see why you are confused then. Here in the Battledome, we only accept manga feats and abilities. We disregard what happens in the anime. If you didn't read the entire Kakazu fight, you missed a bunch of stuff. As you probably noticed, this a debate forum, so expect your views to be put under scrutiny. If you want to have an easy time assimilating into these forums, try to back up what you say with some kind of evidence. 

Also, try not to double post as that will get you in trouble.


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## Chaotic Gangsta (May 8, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> No problem. Well, I can see why you are confused then. Here in the Battledome, we only accept manga feats and abilities. We disregard what happens in the anime. If you didn't read the entire Kakazu fight, you missed a bunch of stuff. As you probably noticed, this a debate forum, so expect your views to be put under scrutiny. If you want to have an easy time assimilating into these forums, try to back up what you say with some kind of evidence.
> 
> Also, try not to double post as that will get you in trouble.




The anime is just as accurate as the manga, now that was ignorant for me to say, but then-again, it's kind of true. Anyway, it does not matter. It's a top 20 list, and evidently, Kazuzu isn't in it and that was definately deliberate and my intention. Please, take note of this again. It's a list, I do not care for you to tell me that I am wrong other-wise. Kazuzu's abilities do not out-weigh Sai's, end of story. Please go look up the word opinion, please.


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## Thunder (May 8, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> The anime is just as accurate as the manga, now that was ignorant for me to say, but then-again, it's kind of true. Anyway, it does not matter. It's a top 20 list, and evidently, Kazuzu isn't in it and that was definately deliberate and my intention. Please, take note of this again. It's a list, I do not care for you to tell me that I am wrong other-wise. Kazuzu's abilities do not out-weigh Sai's, end of story. Please go look up the word opinion, please.




Never mind, you missed the boat


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## Cole (May 8, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> Actually, the list is not in order. The list is quite perfect, except for me excluding Orochimaru, which in most cases, I should have. However, I think you need to take a look at my list again, tell me if there was a mistake with those specific characters as one of the most powerful ninja, please. I've looked at the list which was quite thorough, if I do say so myself. After all, it's an opinion, It's my say. Plus, it's only a subjective theory in terms of how I've seen it. Given their feat, I'd say my list is exactly how I want it. It's my personal opinion which is something you definately need to learn the concept of. I do not recall myself judging your list, wait, you did not make on, but you made sure to criticise mine. WHO DOES THAT!? You should learn how to respect boundaries, I know I've learned this simple & easy philosophy.







> Originally posted by *Mobius1*
> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> 2. Hashirama Senju (due to massive hype)
> 3. Madara Uchiha
> ...


It's called the forums for a reason, people are gonna criticize you for everything you do, get used to it.


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## Sanbi (May 8, 2010)

EpicFailPersin said:


> The anime is just as accurate as the manga, now that was ignorant for me to say, but then-again, it's kind of true. Anyway, it does not matter. It's a top 20 list, and evidently, Kazuzu isn't in it and that was definately deliberate and my intention. Please, take note of this again. It's a list, I do not care for you to tell me that I am wrong other-wise. Kazuzu's abilities do not out-weigh Sai's, end of story. Please go look up the word opinion, please.


The anime is never a good source, since they put filler in and is not entirely made by the creator of the series, and not accurate, so don't use it again please. Your opinion doesn't change the fact of their jutsu and power. Sai is a ROOT agent and isn't anywhere near the level of Kakashi. That same Kakashi couldn't win against Kakuzu, who is a Akatsuki member, has 5 lives as old as Hashirama and extremely powerful. Compare their jutsu lists, and tell me who is more powerful.



Kinjishi said:


> *Kakuzu*
> 
> *Allowed Jutsu:*
> [] [] []





Kinjishi said:


> *Sai*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who's abilities out weigh the other now? I can show you entries for other shinobi too, if you still think Orochimaru is a worse shinobi then Sakura.



EpicFailPersin said:


> Didn't you say so yourself, that if the list in not in order, it is okay? You did say that; I have it right here above. I dfo recall myself saying: THE LIST IS NOT IN ORDER!!!!


Perhaps I worded it wrong. If it is not in order, the order you put them is OK, the people you put in it is not. There is no way Neji, Sai and Sakura even begin to compare in power to the Juubi Jinchuuriki, the creator of ninjutsu, the Rinnegan wielder, and the creator of the moon. or do the compare to the Sannin Orochimaru who struck fear into Kakashi and defeated Sarutobi, who were both stronger then any of them. Gai defeated Shoten Kisame when Neji did not for a reason, he is also his sensei and rival to Kakashi for a reason: he is stronger then Neji, Sakura and Sai. Kakuzu has 5 lives, 5 different elements, is as old as Hashirama, was a senior meber of Akatsuki, and was easily about to kill Kakashi, Chouji, Ino and Shikamaru, and you gave Chouji a honorable mention over him, when Kakuzu would rape him with his team and Kakshi as back-up? Hidan is invincible, and singlehandedly beat Shikamaru and Asuma, and you picked Sai, Sakura and Neji over him? I would like to see them join Akatsuki, and beat those two. Sasori has the Sandaime Kakzekage the strongest Kazekage ever, took down a country with 100 puppets, and you choose them over him?



> What part of this do you people not understand!!?!? It's an OPINION!          O-P-I-N-I-O-N!!!


An opinion can be wrong.



> Wow. I am  finished for today with this thread and tired of the tenacity and ignorance of some of you guys.


Next time, read a whole fight before saying who is stronger between two shinobi such as Sai and Kakuzu, and don't use the anime as a source



> Completely obstinate for this continuation over my list, I'll tell and give you that. If you have anything else to say with the list, which I think is perfectly fine though I didn't recommend the 4th who's abilities are yet to be apparent and are speculation, please just skip it. It isn't changing. Next, I bet you guys are going to say that Naruto shouldn't be on the list, haha


He should, no one is arguing that, but when you say Sai, Sakura, and Neji are better shinobi then Kakuzu, Orochimaru, Gai, Hidan, and Sasori, no one is going to to take you or your list serious


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## Atlantic Storm (May 9, 2010)

Er, technically Sasori took down a _country_ with his 100 puppets. Chiyo was the one who took down the castle.


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## Judecious (May 9, 2010)

going by feats
1.Minato(fought madara+kyuubi with no kekkai genkai to control it)
2.Pain(took down konoha without a bijuu)
3.Hashirama(fought prime madara)
4.Madar(fought hashirama and survived)
5.Hanzo(took on all 3 young sannins)
6.Naruto(fought the strongest shinibo shown to date)
7.Sasuke(attack the kage summit and came out of there alive)
8.Jiraiya(fought pain with no knowledge and had a good chance)
9.Kisame(captured mutilpe bijuu and basically beat bee without killer instinct)
10.Itachi(took on hebi sasuke with ease)
11.Orochimaru(took down konoha with the sand)
12.Sasori(he took down a whole nation nuff said )
13.Tsunade(super strength and world best medical ninja)
14.Kakashi(top ninja in the narutoverse)
15.Deidara(captured gaara with no killer instinct)
16.Bee(beat down taka)
17.A(tied with sasuke but lost a arm)
18.kakuzu(beast)
19.Chiyo(took down a castle
20.Gaara(in the Desert on a few can beat him)

Minato and pain(nagato) can change spots anyday


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## Kisame (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kishimoto never said that. Prime Hiruzen was known at the strongest Hokage, but he was far past his prime and very overrated.
> 
> And Nagato was still stronger than him.
> 
> ...



Kishimoto did say that on an interview and i think on lists characters are supposed to be judged by their prime time.


and u never know if he was giving him praise or if he was serious


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Er, technically Sasori took down a _country_ with his 100 puppets. Chiyo was the one who took down the castle.



Yeah, but what country? Did it even have any shinobi?


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## Big Mom (May 9, 2010)

In all honesty, Pain and Sasori show be low on that list. Nagato was strong simply for having the Bodies but as jiraiya demonstrated, they can be destroyed. He is not invincible and on top of poor stamina, big times can defeat him. May be like 5th or lower.

Sasori sucked in general. He lost to two crippled ninja, an old lady and a female kunochi with not other abilties except strength. Therefore it can be questioned weather he makes the list or not. Kakashi could defeat him and possibly even Gai. He sucks in taijutsu and once you get past the puppets by either destroying them or just dodging them, he is easy pickings. He was only strong because he had a lot of weak puppets. Not too big of a deal.


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## Shinkurai (May 9, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> In all honesty, Pain and Sasori show be low on that list. Nagato was strong simply for having the Bodies but as jiraiya demonstrated, they can be destroyed. He is not invincible and on top of poor stamina, big times can defeat him. May be like 5th or lower.



Yes, that's why, during the invasion of Konoha, Pain was able to:

-Unleash countless destructive Jutsu, from a massive chakra cannon to countless boss-class summonings
-Use a Shinra Tensei large enough to level a village
-Form a moon that ripped apart an entire mountain range
-Was apparently capable of forming an even larger moon
-Still had enough chakra to use a mass resurrection Jutsu, unlike anything ever seen before in the Narutoverse

Because of his low stamina. 

QUOTE=Hiruzen Sarutobi;32641869]Sasori sucked in general. He lost to two crippled ninja, an old lady and a female kunochi with not other abilties except strength. Therefore it can be questioned weather he makes the list or not. Kakashi could defeat him and possibly even Gai. He sucks in taijutsu and once you get past the puppets by either destroying them or just dodging them, he is easy pickings. He was only strong because he had a lot of weak puppets. Not too big of a deal.[/QUOTE]

The fact that Sasori lost to two powerful kunoichi is irrelevant. They had the advantage of prep, were a perfect team, one of them is an extremely powerful shinobi (come to think of it, I should have given her a spot on my top 20 list), and, in the end, Sasori chose to lost.

He had a massive arsenal of puppets, one capable of ripping apart rocks effortlessly and unleashing devastating attacks that all- if they so much scratch the target- are lethal. How could Kakashi defeat him, again? Not to mention Gai, who would possibly be killed by Hiruko alone.

And Sasori's body is also very powerful, and is almost invincible. Maneuvering around his puppets is difficult, and he is far from helpless if even that is achieved.


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## Thunder (May 9, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> In all honesty, Pain and Sasori show be low on that list. Nagato was strong simply for having the Bodies but as jiraiya demonstrated, they can be destroyed. He is not invincible and on top of poor stamina, big times can defeat him. May be like 5th or lower.
> 
> Sasori sucked in general. He lost to two crippled ninja, an old lady and a female kunochi with not other abilties except strength. Therefore it can be questioned weather he makes the list or not. Kakashi could defeat him and possibly even Gai. He sucks in taijutsu and once you get past the puppets by either destroying them or just dodging them, he is easy pickings. He was only strong because he had a lot of weak puppets. Not too big of a deal.



5th or lower? You can't be serious. And how is his stamina low? He destroyed an entire village and then brought them back to life. That would consume anyone's chakra. His bodies can be destroyed? Easier said then done. Jiraiya, one of the strongest fighters in this manga had trouble with this.

Sasori sucked? Lol. And Gai is better? Are you reading this manga carefully?


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## Big Mom (May 9, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> Yes, that's why, during the invasion of Konoha, Pain was able to:
> 
> -Unleash countless destructive Jutsu, from a massive chakra cannon to countless boss-class summonings
> -Use a Shinra Tensei large enough to level a village
> ...



The fact that Sasori lost to two powerful kunoichi is irrelevant. They had the advantage of prep, were a perfect team, one of them is an extremely powerful shinobi (come to think of it, I should have given her a spot on my top 20 list), and, in the end, Sasori chose to lost.

He had a massive arsenal of puppets, one capable of ripping apart rocks effortlessly and unleashing devastating attacks that all- if they so much scratch the target- are lethal. How could Kakashi defeat him, again? Not to mention Gai, who would possibly be killed by Hiruko alone.

And Sasori's body is also very powerful, and is almost invincible. Maneuvering around his puppets is difficult, and he is far from helpless if even that is achieved.*Almost invincible yeah right. Sakura was able to smash it to bits(given she does have awesome strength) it is not invicnible. Kashi has Kamui and his other arsenal. The puppets are inferior. they can be killed by many eelemental jutsu. A Lighting blade can wrip through the puppets and into Sasori quite easily. Gai can succesfully smash them similar to Sakura and given his speed, he can easily bypass the puppets and head straight to Sasori's body/heart.*

[/QUOTE]

Counters are in red...


@other person: Yes I am. Already explained.


Pain is powerful, but nothing with out his bodies. Naruto smashed them to bits and Orochiamru had already shown the invasion. Except pain didn't fight on of the strongest ninjas in history right? Infact he never fought a kage before. he fought two kage level ninjas. One of which hasn't been shown, the other was against a non serious non full formed sage jiariya who managed to destroy one of them. naruto or Sasuke might be able to wrip him apart. If all the efforts of teh Konoha ninja were actually put to gether rather than healing the already injured or sending out the weak men, such as Danzo, Tsunade, Naruto, Kakashi, gated Gai, they could have defeat him.., combined.


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## Shinkurai (May 9, 2010)

> We do not know how much chakra that consumes. Large doesn't mean large amount of chakra. He could have used all B ranked jutsu for all we know.



Are you serious? This is your big counter?

The larger and more powerful the Jutsu is, the more chakra it consumes. That's common sense, and that is based upon our observations on the Jutsu in the manga. For example, Susanoo logically costs more chakra than Goukakyuu, right?

If you want me to take this argument seriously, which I'm currently incapable of, find a better point than "Nagato got tired once, ergo he has bad stamina!" and "The power and size of a Jutsu have nothing to do with its chakra cost!".



> Almost invincible yeah right. Sakura was able to smash it to bits(given she does have awesome strength) it is not invicnible. Kashi has Kamui and his other arsenal. The puppets are inferior. they can be killed by many eelemental jutsu. A Lighting blade can wrip through the puppets and into Sasori quite easily. Gai can succesfully smash them similar to Sakura and given his speed, he can easily bypass the puppets and head straight to Sasori's body/heart.



It is nearly invisible because- without utterly obliterating it and destroying the heart- it will reform, certainly from any strike of Gai's. Kamui would be useful, but that's assuming Kakashi would so much as be able to see Sasori past the army of puppets. After all, I'm sure you don't think Kakashi can easily avoid a hail of Satetsu, right? Or any of Sandaime's Iron Sand Jutsu? All he needs to do in order to lose is get touched by one of Sasori's attacks, and I'm afraid he's not good enough to avoid that. 

As for elemental Jutsu- they are useful, but they are not all-powerful. And Sandaime has several ways to counter them.


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## Thunder (May 9, 2010)

I really don't have the patience to argue that Pain and Sasori are not weak, when this has been clearly displayed in the manga. I can't take you seriously if you think Sasori sucks or Pain doesn't deserve to be top tier.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 9, 2010)

Of course Pain is nothing without his bodies. Pain is a _Jutsu_.

Each body has a specific role and purpose. There are body meant to support the others, like Human realm(?), Hell realm and Preta realm and bodies that are meant for combat, like Deva realm, Asura realm and Human realm(?).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Of course Pain is nothing without his bodies. Pain is a _Jutsu_, not an entity. All 6 bodies are one being, they support each other.


Actually, he isn't. Nagato can use _all_ the powers that his bodies used.


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

Not Asura    .


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## Black☆Star (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Not Asura    .



Why not?
It's not like you didn't see people turn into paper, water, monsters, fusions etc..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Not Asura    .


Demon Realms abilities can also be used by Nagato. Don't ask me to explain how, that's just what the fanbook said. All the jutsu that the Paths used can be used by Nagato.


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## Hero (May 9, 2010)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> you dont have to agree
> i know this has probably been done before, i wa just interested in eveybody's views, heres my list:
> 
> 1.   Sage of the Six Paths
> ...



If Jugo is on there, Tsunade should be on there as well!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> going by feats
> 1.Minato(fought madara+kyuubi with no kekkai genkai to control it)
> 2.Pain(took down konoha without a bijuu)
> 3.Hashirama(fought prime madara)
> ...


Honestly, Bee and A are way too low. Bee is a fully realized Jinchuuriki who can control the entirety of his beast and A is the fastest living character in the series with insane strength and bijuu level chakra. Why you put Naruto and Sasuke above them makes no sense whatsoever, why you put Deidara above them makes no sense either since they both beat him in speed and the elements.

You call A and Bee overrated, why is that? They've lived up to their hype and are top tier characters.

Not only that, Sasuke and Naruto haven't surpassed Itachi and Jiraiya yet, so Jiraiya and Itachi should still be top tier. 

And why are you putting Chiyo above Gaara and Kakuzu above Gaara?

narutothebest, your list really doesn't make any sense.


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## Savage (May 9, 2010)

Hiruzen said:


> 1. Rikudou Sennin
> 2. Hiruzen Sarutobi
> 3. Nagato/Pain
> 4. Hashirama Senju/Madara Uchiha
> ...



jiraiya in a sense beat pain. he killed the three path and then they were revived. and after he was ambushed he still managed to kill one. it debatable but jiraiya could be stronger than pain. also what hiruzen are we talking about? if prime then yes but if old then no. lastly i don't think naruto is stronger than sasuke at this point. he's just not mentally ready


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Jiraiya the Gallant said:


> jiraiya in a sense beat pain. he killed the three path and then they were revived. and after he was ambushed he still managed to kill one. it debatable but jiraiya could be stronger than pain. also what hiruzen are we talking about? if prime then yes but if old then no. lastly i don't think naruto is stronger than sasuke at this point. he's just not mentally ready


You DO realize Pain was _toying_ with Jiraiya throughout the fight? At no point was he even taking it seriously. Jiraiya only 'beat' Animal, Hungry Ghost, and Human Realm after he _ran away_ from a direct confrontation since he knew, even in Sage Mode, he would have been killed. 

Seriously, how does that make Jiraiya stronger than Pain?


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## Shinkurai (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And why are you putting Chiyo above Gaara and Kakuzu above Gaara?



You think that Gaara is stronger than Kakuzu? Why?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> You think that Gaara is stronger than Kakuzu? Why?


Gaara blocked the Amaterasu with his sand and can control an entire desert. Even if he can't get through Kakuzu's Iron Skin, he can bury him so far underneath the earth he can neutralize Kakuzu.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Pain's entire group consists of Kage level ninjas kept in line by his charisma and power alone according to the databook. 

Yes, if Danzo fought back, he'd have lost, but beyond that and Naruto? Nothing else was helping. Kakashi on his own stood 'no chance' against Deva and Asura. And he's 'nothing without the bodies?' Kisame is nothing without Samehada, Deidara is nothing without clay, Itachi is nothing without Sharingan, Sasori is nothing without puppets...stuff like that fails to comprehend that what they have is part of them. Moreover, Pain can do everything the bodies can


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gaara blocked the Amaterasu with his sand and can control an entire desert. Even if he can't get through Kakuzu's Iron Skin, he can bury him so far underneath the earth he can neutralize Kakuzu.



Too bad Amaterasu can't melt through Samurai Armor.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

More refined list after giving more thought:

0. Rikudou Sennin
1. Nagato
2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Madara
5. Jiraiya
6. Killer Bee/A
7. Naruto (with complete Sage Mode and Kyubi Sage Mode)
8. Itachi
9. Sasuke (with complete MS)
10. Tsunade/Orochimaru/Gaara
11. Mei Terumi
12. Sasori/Deidara
13. Kisame
14. Kakuzu
15. Konan
16. Kakashi
17. Hiruzen/Onoki
18. Gai
19. Shikamaru/Neji (due to his high intelligence/due to his mastery of the Byakugan and Jyuken)
20. Hidan


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Not sure why Mei is ranked that high, honestly...she doesn't have the feats to back up the power. Yet.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Not sure why Mei is ranked that high, honestly...she doesn't have the feats to back up the power. Yet.


With two bloodlines, one which can melt the Susano'o and the other that can create lava, I'd say she's worth of the 11th spot on my list.


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

Why is Pain above Hashirama with multiple Biju and Madara with EMS and the Kyuubi? Oh and Minato wasn't even able to beat the former shell of Madara, he can't defeat a prime one.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Well, Mei's got powerful bloodlines, but it remains to be seen if she cna do much with them to rival the Akatsuki members. Sasori's attacks are fast.

And we have no feats from Hashirama and Prime Madara, plain and simple, Sanbi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Why is Pain above Hashirama with multiple Biju and Madara with EMS and the Kyuubi?


Since the manga canonically called Pain the strongest, as did the fanbook and databook. Hashirama without the Bijuu isn't nearly as strong, and Madara without the Kyubi isn't nearly as strong. 

And remember Sanbi, Pain has the Rinnegan, the strongest Dojutsu in the Narutoverse. He can flatten entire Ninja Villages after taking them on by himself and turn entire moutnain ranges into a moon. He has the power over life and death.

He's above Hashirama and Madara.


> Oh and Minato wasn't even able to beat the former shell of Madara, he can't defeat a prime one.


Minato fought both Madara AND Kyubi, and technically he did defeat Madara by sealing the Kyubi. Madara ran with his tail between his legs.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> Minato died. Madara lived. Yet Minato wins. Because Madara didn't want to fight an entire village. After killing Minato.
> 
> Awesome logic there lol.


He 'killed' Minato? So he gave up the Kyuubi to be sealed?

Oh, wait. Minato made him retreat and sealed the Kyuubi, saving the village that Madara was trying to destroy.


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since the manga canonically called Pain the strongest, as did the fanbook and databook. Hashirama without the Bijuu isn't nearly as strong, and Madara without the Kyubi isn't nearly as strong.


Hashirama was considered the man on top of the ninja world, and a former shell of Prime Madara is Pain's boss for a reason. Pain is no where near the strongest, with the titans of the past, and they were talking about currently. I wouldn't trust the fanbook or the databook, and I so far haven't found a thing that says something like that anywhere, so would you like to provide the scans?

Ask anyone about Madara and Hashirama, and anyone would say they are more powerful then Pain. I think you are derailing them both because of their Biju associated powers, even when that isn't where all their power and where fame came from. They are extremely powerful without their Biju. And even then, why are you discounting them, they are apart of their power as much as toads are for Naruto and Jiraiya.



> And remember Sanbi, Pain has the Rinnegan, the strongest Dojutsu in the Narutoverse. He can flatten entire Ninja Villages after taking them on by himself and turn entire moutnain ranges into a moon. He has the power over life and death.


That won't make him stronger then someone possessing a Kekkei Genkai that can control Biju and that can create all of Konoha's forests. Or Madara with EMS, as well as the Kyuubi.



> He's above Hashirama and Madara.


As you are a Nagato fan, I don't hope you mind that I think you are a bit biased.



> Minato fought both Madara AND Kyubi, and technically he did defeat Madara by sealing the Kyubi. Madara ran with his tail between his legs.


That isn't defeating him is he lost his life. I don't see you reasoning, and it wasn't the Kyuubi who read through everything Minato did.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Hashirama was considered the man on top of the ninja world,


How long ago?



> and a former shell of Prime Madara is Pain's boss for a reason. Pain is no where near the strongest, with the titans of the past, and they were talking about currently. I wouldn't trust the fanbook or the databook, and I so far haven't found a thing that says something like that anywhere, so would you like to provide the scans?


Oh, you wouldn't trust the official word of Masashi Kishimoto on these subjects? Kay. Even Fukasaku said the Rinnegan was the strongest doujutsu, too.
And yeah, remember when Madara said he was powerless, a shell of his former self? Minato said Madara was using Pain. Why? Similar ideals, Madara strung him along. Nothing to do with power




> Ask anyone about Madara and Hashirama, and anyone would say they are more powerful then Pain. I think you are derailing them both because of their Biju associated powers, even when that isn't where all their power and where fame came from. They are extremely powerful without their Biju. And even then, why are you discounting them, they are apart of their power as much as toads are for Naruto and Jiraiya.


Why should I care what most anyone says? Neither of them have any quantifiable feats. Hell, Hiruzen was said to have surpassed Hashirama. And Hashirama gave away the Bijuu to boot



> That won't make him stronger then someone possessing a Kekkei Genkai that can control Biju and that can create all of Konoha's forests. Or Madara with EMS, as well as the Kyuubi.


And we've seen Pain flatten Konoha. the Rinnegan is the strongest doujutsu...remember the Sage of Six Paths and all?



> As you are a Nagato fan, I don't hope you mind that I think you are a bit biased.
> 
> 
> That isn't defeating him is he lost his life. I don't see you reasoning, and it wasn't the Kyuubi who read through everything Minato did.




Oh, for the love of...
Minato aimed to save Konoha, seal the Kyuubi and drive Madara off. He did that.
The idea of "you don't win if you die" is a remarkably stupid one.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Hashirama was considered the man on top of the ninja world, and a former shell of Prime Madara is Pain's boss for a reason. Pain is no where near the strongest, with the titans of the past, and they were talking about currently. I wouldn't trust the fanbook or the databook, and I so far haven't found a thing that says something like that anywhere, so would you like to provide the scans?


Hashirama was considered on top of the Ninja World _in his era_. Hiruzen surpassed him and Tobirama without him using the Bijuu. Prime Madara and Hashirama were only that strong because of their bijuu, not despite of them.

Not only that, Current Madara was not Pain's boss. They had equal standing in Akatsuki, Pain was using Madara as much as Madara used him, and their two goals would have led to a clash which Nagato would win.

And why not trust the fanbook or the databook? They're written by Kishimoto.


> Ask anyone about Madara and Hashirama, and anyone would say they are more powerful then Pain. I think you are derailing them both because of their Biju associated powers, even when that isn't where all their power and where fame came from. They are extremely powerful without their Biju. And even then, why are you discounting them, they are apart of their power as much as toads are for Naruto and Jiraiya.


Prove they are extremely powerful without their Bijuu. Prove they can solo ninja villages and ressurrect the dead. 

Without their Bijuu, Madara and Hashirama don't have the skill or power to take on someone like Pain who can solo an entire ninja village on his own. 



> That won't make him stronger then someone possessing a Kekkei Genkai that can control Biju and that can create all of Konoha's forests. Or Madara with EMS, as well as the Kyuubi.


And Nagato possesses the Kekki Genkai where Madara and Hashirama got all their Kekki Genkais. Nagato's feats are greater than those of Madara and Hasahirama



> As you are a Nagato fan, I don't hope you mind that I think you are a bit biased.


It isn't about a fan, its about what's said in the manga, databooks, and fanbooks. Nagato possessed the strongest Kekkei Genkai we've seen in the Narutoverse and did feats that EVEN WITH THEIR BIJUU Hashirama and Madara cannot match.

All Madara and Hashirama have is hype. No feats. Nothing to put them on Nagato's level.


> That isn't defeating him is he lost his life. I don't see you reasoning, and it wasn't the Kyuubi who read through everything Minato did.


Minato willingly sacrificed himself to seal Kyuubi after fighting both him and Madara, forcing Madara to retreat with his tail between his legs.


----------



## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Pain is not above Hashirama (who had control of all the Bijuu) and Madara.

Bijuu + Kekkei Genkai + Senju > Pain.

The second one is glaringly obvious. Pain wouldn't work for Madara if he were weaker than him. Madara's the leader for a fucking reason.

Quote me on this. Reply to me. 

I dare you.


----------



## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama was considered on top of the Ninja World _in his era_


So was Pain, he was never stated to be the strongest in the entire ninja world ever, and I am waiting for the scans that prove your claim that the manga, DB and fanbook say that.

.





> Hiruzen surpassed him and Tobirama without him using the Bijuu.


Prove it.



> Prime Madara and Hashirama were only that strong because of their bijuu, not despite of them.


Again, I don't know why you are discounting them. And they were heralded as the greatest of their time even without the Biju and people still fear them.




> Not only that, Current Madara was not Pain's boss. They had equal standing in Akatsuki, Pain was using Madara as much as Madara used him, and their two goals would have led to a clash which Nagato would win.


So he just gave Pain orders, and he complied for the lulz?



> And why not trust the fanbook or the databook? They're written by Kishimoto.


I'm still waiting for these sources saying that, or even the manga. If we trust the DB that means Amaterasu is as hot as the sun and Sugidan is as fast as light.



> Prove they are extremely powerful without their Bijuu. Prove they can solo ninja villages and ressurrect the dead.


They possibly could solo villages considering the damage they did to VotE, and their large AoE jutsu and individual skill. And why are you discounting their Biju again?



> Without their Bijuu, Madara and Hashirama don't have the skill or power to take on someone like Pain who can solo an entire ninja village on his own.


^



> And Nagato possesses the Kekki Genkai where Madara and Hashirama got all their Kekki Genkais. Nagato's feats are greater than those of Madara and Hasahirama


Of course they are, they have no feats. And Kekkei Genkai don't determine strength.




> It isn't about a fan, its about what's said in the manga, databooks, and fanbooks. Nagato possessed the strongest Kekkei Genkai we've seen in the Narutoverse and did feats that EVEN WITH THEIR BIJUU Hashirama and Madara cannot match.


Lets not get carried away here, with their Biju, Pain stands no chance and that is exactly the bias I am talking about. He has the strongest Doujutsu, I reckon their is a stronger one, and waiting for those scans.



> All Madara and Hashirama have is hype. No feats. Nothing to put them on Nagato's level.


besdies their hype, which does put them higher.



> Minato willingly sacrificed himself to seal Kyuubi after fighting both him and Madara, forcing Madara to retreat with his tail between his legs.


He still only matched a former shell of Madara, Prime would rape.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Pain is not above Hashirama (who had control of all the Bijuu) and Madara.
> 
> Bijuu + Kekkei Genkai + Senju > Pain.
> 
> ...


You do know what feats are, right? Pain is above Hashirama and Madara, he can crush Konoha on his own, and was shown higher feats. Madara and Pain worked TOGETHER, no one was the boss in the relationship there, and a clash was inevitable.

LegendaryBeauty, you do know what feats are, right? And you do know Pain crushed Konoha, which Madara could not, right? And you do know that Hiruzen surpassed Hashirama when he didn't have the Bijuu right?

Sorry, Hashirama and Madara have nothing but hype. No feats. No nothing.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Poor child just sealed its fate.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know what feats are, right?



You do know what common sense is, right?


> Pain is above Hashirama and Madara, he can crush Konoha on his own, and was shown higher feats.



Hashirama's barely shown feats. But he's been shown to control the bijuu. All of them. Something Pain is incapable of. 

Hashirama created Konoha, with his Kekkei Genkai. Pain has nothing on him.


> Madara and Pain worked TOGETHER, no one was the boss in the relationship there, and a clash was inevitable.



Are you forgetting the fact that Madara ordered Pain to go get Naruto? That Pain asked for instructions?



> LegendaryBeauty, you do know what feats are, right?



I know you're repeating yourself because you're running out of things to say.



> And you do know Pain crushed Konoha, which Madara could not, right?



Madara is probably capable of warping Konoha in its entirety away. Hashirama can crush Konoha. Tobirama can flood the fuck out of Konoha. Tsunade's strength could obliterate Konoha, if she rampaged the village. Pain isn't the only one.



> And you do know that Hiruzen surpassed Hashirama when he didn't have the Bijuu right?



Really? Because it seemed to me that Hiruzen was struggling against what appeared to be a pale form of Hashirama when Orochimaru sic'd him on him.



> Sorry, Hashirama and Madara have nothing but hype. No feats. No nothing.



Aside from creating Konoha, controlling Bijuu, Madara being Pain's boss, and a plethora of other things.


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## Thunder (May 9, 2010)

Pain above Hashirama and Prime Madara? Nonsense. He isn't. This is coming from a Pain fan. Are there any sensible ones left around here?


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Pain above Hashirama and Prime Madara? Nonsense. He isn't. This is coming from a Pain fan. Are there any sensible ones left around here?


+Rep

I'm glad their are.

Pain is certainly strong, but he isn't as strong as those titans.


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## Thunder (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> +Rep
> 
> I'm glad their are.
> 
> Pain is certainly strong, but he isn't as strong as those titans.



I appreciate the rep. Indeed, Hash with Bijuu and Prime Madara are certainly above Pain. Blowing up a village pales in comparison to controlling Bijuu. Hell, Hashirama could destroy a village with Bijuu if he wanted.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> So was Pain, he was never stated to be the strongest in the entire ninja world ever, and I am waiting for the scans that prove your claim that the manga, DB and fanbook say that.


I don't have them on me. Pain was stated to be strongest in the Narutoverse, stronger than everyone who came before Sanbi. Madara called Pain invincible. So did Fukasaku and he also said Pain had the strongest Kekki Genkai despite living through Hashirama and Madara's era.
.


> Prove it.


Since it was stated in the manga?! Since he actually has feats, unlike Hashirama or Tobirama?



> Again, I don't know why you are discounting them. And they were heralded as the greatest of their time even without the Biju and people still fear them.


I'm discounting them _since its not a standard power_, unlike summoning, I doubt the Bijuu were even USED much by Hashirama or Madara in their battles. They were ONLY feared BECAUSE of their Bijuu, without them they are not as strong as you claim.




> So he just gave Pain orders, and he complied for the lulz?


Since it furthered Pain's own goals? Both Madara and Pain had OPPOSITE ideas for the Bijuu, Madara to recreate the Jubi, Pain to create a country destroying weapon. 



> I'm still waiting for these sources saying that, or even the manga. If we trust the DB that means Amaterasu is as hot as the sun and Sugidan is as fast as light.


Dear god, its stated several times through the Pain arc. Its stated by Jiraiya. Its stated by Fukasaku. Its stated by MADARA HIMSELF that Pain is invincible, that he has the strongest Dojutsu...



> They possibly could solo villages considering the damage they did to VotE, and their large AoE jutsu and individual skill. And why are you discounting their Biju again?


Dear god, the VotE was created by the Kyubi, NOT by Madara and Hashirama's own powers. And no, Madara and Hashirama cannot equal the damage Pain did to Konoha.





> Of course they are, they have no feats. And Kekkei Genkai don't determine strength.


Yes, they have no feats. Thus are weaker than Pain.




> Lets not get carried away here, with their Biju, Pain stands no chance and that is exactly the bias I am talking about. He has the strongest Doujutsu, I reckon their is a stronger one, and waiting for those scans.


God, this has been known for YEARS now. The Rinnegan is the strongest Dojutsu, the Sharingan and Hashirama's techniques are just DILUTED VERSIONS of it. How can you not know this!?

And even with their Bijuu, Pain at 100%? Creates a Chibaku Tensei to seal all the Bijuu, or summons the Gedo Mazu to do it. 



> besdies their hype, which does put them higher.


Their hype doesn't equal Pain crushing Konoha without any effort whatsoever or toying with a Sannin or containing KN6 Naruto and KN8 Naruto. _OR RESURRECTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE!_



> He still only matched a former shell of Madara, Prime would rape.


Prove it.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't have them on me.





/Debate


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> You do know what common sense is, right?


You do know how to quantify a person's power right?



> Hashirama's barely shown feats. But he's been shown to control the bijuu. All of them. Something Pain is incapable of.


Why should Pain, someone who has the Kekki Genkai that _Hashirama's ORIGINATED FROM_, can't control a Bijuu? Why should he, a person gifted with the same Dojutsu that the Rikudou Sennin have-the same guy who beat and controlled the Jyubi and created the Bijuu, lack that ability? Do you know how little sense that even makes?


> Hashirama created Konoha, with his Kekkei Genkai. Pain has nothing on him.


You do know what metaphor is, right? Hashirama didn't create Konoha with his Mokuton, as we saw in Madara's flashback. 



> Are you forgetting the fact that Madara ordered Pain to go get Naruto? That Pain asked for instructions?


You do know that Pain has his own goal, right? That he and Madara are working together due to convenience, right?





> Madara is probably capable of warping Konoha in its entirety away. Hashirama can crush Konoha. Tobirama can flood the fuck out of Konoha. Tsunade's strength could obliterate Konoha, if she rampaged the village. Pain isn't the only one.
> ...that is by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Madara cannot warp Konoha away, he can barely handle two people and is vulnerable when he attacks. Hashirama has to deal with hundreds of shinobi attacking him at the same time, same with Tobirama and Tsunade.
> 
> Way to underestimate Pain's feat and hype up your favorites.
> ...


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## Sadgoob (May 9, 2010)

Actually, SuperSaiyanMan, there is a canonical scan saying Itachi is the strongest ninja in the manga by far sent to me by the author himself. However, the author told me I can't show anyone but particularly devoted Itachi fans. But ask them, they'll vouch for me and the efficacy of this scan.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know how to quantify a person's power right?



Much more than you do, apparently.



> *Why should Pain, someone who has the Kekki Genkai that Hashirama's ORIGINATED FROM, can't control a Bijuu? *Why should he, a person gifted with the same Dojutsu that the Rikudou Sennin have-the same guy who beat and controlled the Jyubi and created the Bijuu, lack that ability? Do you know how little sense that even makes?



Because it hasn't been shown. Weren't you the one speaking of that before?



> You do know what metaphor is, right? Hashirama didn't create Konoha with his Mokuton, as we saw in Madara's flashback.



I disagree. Post a scan to prove me wrong, then.


> You do know that Pain has his own goal, right? That he and Madara are working together due to convenience, right?



Then why couldn't Pain be the leader, out of convenience? Ensure his goal was met first?



> that is by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Madara cannot warp Konoha away, he can barely handle two people and is vulnerable when he attacks. Hashirama has to deal with hundreds of shinobi attacking him at the same time, same with Tobirama and Tsunade.



You're telling me two people can handle Madara?

Names, please.



> Way to underestimate Pain's feat and hype up your favorites.



I'm not. It's still an incredible feat. But I'm saying others are capable of destroying Konoha as well.


> I meant _Hiruzen in his Prime_, and guess what, Hashirama and Tobirama momentarily _lost_ Against Hiruzen when he blew off their legs.



We have no feats for Hiruzen prime. You were harping on about feats, now you allude to someone without them.

I love hypocrisy.



> God...you don't know what metaphor is, controlling Bijuu is something a skill is rarely used, Madara and Pain were equal in Akatsuki with Pain having greater charisma, and _PAIN. HAS. FEATS!_ *NOT HYPE!**ACTUAL THINGS THAT QUANTIFY HIS POWER!*



If Madara and Pain were equal in Akatsuki, Pain wouldn't be taking orders from Madara.

Pain has feats, but not hype? Are we reading the same manga? Apparently not.


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## Smiley (May 9, 2010)

Pain Isn't Stronger Than Hashirama 

As a major pain fan, I can honestly say that he would get owned by Hashirama. Hasirama  abilities were so great that he was able to not only fight on equal footing with Madara despite the power of his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan and having the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox at his side, but also survive the battle and gain victory in the end. The injuries which he caused to Madara were so great that even now they still affect him tremendously, which is why madara says his 'a former shell of himself'.

Rinnegan was indeed the strongest Dojutsu, Far Surpassing The Powers of the EMS. It's common sense to assume that Nagato never mastered the full powers of the rinnegan, otherwise another Rikkudo Sennin would be made.

However I seriously think that madara could beat Nagato. It majorly depends on if Nagato actually does have the power of 'all bodies combined'. I Disagree about madara being the 'boss' of pain. Its like Tsunade and the elders, Tsunade is the leader of konoha, but sometimes takes orders from the elders, that doesn't necessarily mean that the elders are the boss of tsunade.


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I don't have them on me.


Then you have no proof and all of you points are invalid basically, if you can't back up those claims.



> Pain was stated to be strongest in the Narutoverse, stronger than everyone who came before Sanbi.


Really where? Because facts certainly disagree, Rokudo Sennin was stronger, if a Shell of Madara is equal to Pain or close in power, then Prime is stronger, especially with the Kyuubi, and Hashirama beats that same Prime Madara.




> Madara called Pain invincible. So did Fukasaku and he also said Pain had the strongest Kekki Genkai despite living through Hashirama and Madara's era.


Fukasaku never lived through Hashirama and Madara's era  And Kishi said Amaterasu was as hot as the sun.....Your point?

The hype and feats of Madara far surpass Nagato. Kyuubi + EMS > Rinnegan.



> Since it was stated in the manga?! Since he actually has feats, unlike Hashirama or Tobirama?


A full power Hashirama could deal with EMS Madara and the Kyuubi at the same time, I think Hiruzen would be like childs play for him. His Mokuton could create forests in the blink of an eye, Hiruzen has no counter to that.



> I'm discounting them _since its not a standard power_, unlike summoning, I doubt the Bijuu were even USED much by Hashirama or Madara in their battles.


I'm pretty sure Jiraiya told us , and if Hashirama couldn't do the same something is wrong here.



> They were ONLY feared BECAUSE of their Bijuu, without them they are not as strong as you claim.


Except without his Biju, Hashirama still stood atop the shinobi world and was equal to EMS Madara who has Susano, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, presumably better then Itachi and Sasuke as well as any other powerups EMS gave.




> Since it furthered Pain's own goals? Both Madara and Pain had OPPOSITE ideas for the Bijuu, Madara to recreate the Jubi, Pain to create a country destroying weapon.


He still complied like a student would to a teacher, it was very clear he was the boss if he was ordering around him and Konan. If you can't accept that too bad.




> Dear god, its stated several times through the Pain arc. Its stated by Jiraiya. Its stated by Fukasaku. Its stated by MADARA HIMSELF that Pain is invincible, that he has the strongest Dojutsu...


You know, because it isn't like they were using hyperboles, but whatever. I'm waiting for that exact line that "Pain is the strongest ninja ever", not that he is invincible. I'm sure he isn't invincible if he died, so that shouldn't be an argument with alot of wait. IMO Top of Ninja World > Invincible, since it explicitly states he is the strongest in the world, invincible is too vague. 



> Dear god, the VotE was created by the Kyubi, NOT by Madara and Hashirama's own powers. *And no, Madara and Hashirama cannot equal the damage Pain did to Konoha*.


So now the Kyuubi can create forests, and create waterfalls and lakes? Stop your self there, if you don't think they can when Hashirama has the biggest landscape altering powers in the manga and Madara has been proven to summon the Kyuubi, since it is apart of his power.




> Yes, they have no feats. Thus are weaker than Pain.


Sakumo Hatake has no feats, so he is weaker then Sakura. See what I did there?



> God, this has been known for YEARS now. The Rinnegan is the strongest Dojutsu, the Sharingan and Hashirama's techniques are just DILUTED VERSIONS of it. How can you not know this!?





> And even with their Bijuu, Pain at 100%? Creates a Chibaku Tensei to seal all the Bijuu, or summons the Gedo Mazu to do it.


Whatever floats you boat. Even if he can't do that without actually attacking himself/putting full power into Deva, and Chibaku Tensei could barely hold a non full power Kyuubi, and the Gedo Mazu statue is made of *wood*.

I dare you to ask anyone the outcome of a battle between the two who isn't biased.




> Their hype doesn't equal Pain crushing Konoha without any effort whatsoever or toying with a Sannin or containing KN6 Naruto and KN8 Naruto. _OR RESURRECTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE!_


Yes it does. Having multiple Biju, they could easily attain those things, Hashirama and Madara could easily kill Jiraiya without Biju, and could eaily subdue the Kyuubi, something he failed at.



> Prove it.


It's called common sense, if a weaker version of a is equal b, then a stronger version of a would be stronger then b


----------



## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Much more than you do, apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He kind of was...
The fanbook also said their goals diverged. IT was not what one would call a stable alliance




> You're telling me two people can handle Madara?
> 
> Names, please.


Madara couldn't attack the Kage summit by his own admission for starters



> I'm not. It's still an incredible feat. But I'm saying others are capable of destroying Konoha as well.


Let's hear them.



> We have no feats for Hiruzen prime. You were harping on about feats, now you allude to someone without them.
> 
> I love hypocrisy.


We have a direct statement naming him as the strongest of the Hokages, that's more than Hashirama has




> If Madara and Pain were equal in Akatsuki, Pain wouldn't be taking orders from Madara.
> 
> Pain has feats, but not hype? Are we reading the same manga? Apparently not.



Madara himself admits he's a powerless shell of his former self, let's not ignore. Pain is stronger. He just happens to be manipulated and used by Madara


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Another one?



Lightysnake said:


> He kind of was...
> The fanbook also said their goals diverged. IT was not what one would call a stable alliance



Fanbook =/= Manga.


> Madara couldn't attack the Kage summit by his own admission for starters



Scan?



> Let's hear them.



Orochimaru could destroy Konoha
Jiraiya could destroy Konoha
Tsunade could destroy Konoha
Hashirama could destroy Konoha
Tobirama could destroy Konoha
Madara could destroy Konoha

etc.



> We have a direct statement naming him as the strongest of the Hokages, that's more than Hashirama has



Scan, if you would be so kind.



> Madara himself admits he's a powerless shell of his former self, let's not ignore. Pain is stronger. He just happens to be manipulated and used by Madara



So Pain > Madara? How can you defeat something that goes intangible?


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Pain is not above Hashirama (who had control of all the Bijuu) and Madara.
> 
> Bijuu + Kekkei Genkai + Senju > Pain.
> 
> ...



And just interjecting...

Madara is currently weak. He admitted it himself. That's why he acts through proxies and couldn't attack the summit himself.

Hell, most of the Akatsuki members listen to Zetsu. The one who isn't a frontlines fighter. Is he stronger than them?


----------



## ZE (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Fukasaku never lived through Hashirama and Madara's era


Just two things, Sambi. 
From the databook: 



> He is also a teacher to Jiraiya, from the Sannin. The one who personally pounded the power of the Toads and Senjutsu into him. Trained up in the use of chakra in symbiosis with Nature, this 800 year-old doesn't know decline.​


He?s even older than Madara. 



> The hype and feats of Madara far surpass Nagato. Kyuubi + EMS > Rinnegan.


I believe that what you wanted to say is: Kyuubi+EMS>Pain. Not the rinengan. 
The rinengan defeated the Jyuubi in the past, which had the EMS. So, RS?s Rinengan>Jyuubi>Kyuubi+EMS.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Another one?
> 
> 
> 
> Fanbook =/= Manga.


Fanbook= written by Kishimoto. It contains character, technique and background information, the same as the databook. You can't exactly ignore canon when convenient



> Scan?
> 
> Chapter 467:
> 
> ...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> Much more than you do, apparently.


Yes, and feat wise, Pain wins by a wide margin.




> Because it hasn't been shown. Weren't you the one speaking of that before?


When more of the Rikudou Sennin was revealed, its easy to think that Pain can also control Bijuu.




> I disagree. Post a scan to prove me wrong, then.




Hashirama building the village with his Mokuton is a metaphor for him making an alliance with the Uchiha.



> Then why couldn't Pain be the leader, out of convenience? Ensure his goal was met first?


Since despite all of Pain's power, he couldn't do things alone. Pain was the leader in the foreground who got people to follow him with his charisma, Madara was the shadow leader. Both had equal standing in Akatsuki, both gave orders to each other, but they had different goals. Pain was working with Madara out of convenience.



> You're telling me two people can handle Madara?
> 
> Names, please.


Fu and Torune, they made him sacrifice his arm. He even said he couldn't face the Kages due to be a shadow of his former self. 



> I'm not. It's still an incredible feat. But I'm saying others are capable of destroying Konoha as well.


No, only Pain is able to destroy Konoha with all its ninja fighting against him. Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Minato, and Tsunade are all limited due to their chakra supply, Pain isn't. He has shown by far the largest chakra pools in the series. And when he created Konoha the crater? Its several hundred meters deep, well below its original foundations. 

Only Pain is capable of the feat. No one else. Hell Madara was even surprised that Pain could actually do it since he claimed before no one could have fought Konoha directly.



> We have no feats for Hiruzen prime. You were harping on about feats, now you allude to someone without them.
> 
> I love hypocrisy.


Yet we do have him actually beating before they regenerated a Bijuu-less Hashirama and Tobirama.




> If Madara and Pain were equal in Akatsuki, Pain wouldn't be taking orders from Madara.


And Pain gave orders to Madara to get the Sanbi, your point? They both gave orders to each other and only accepted them to achieve their goals.


> Pain has feats, but not hype? Are we reading the same manga? Apparently not. [/COLOR]


Pain has both hype AND feats. Hashirama and Madara lack feats.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Alright, think what you will. Not my place to change ideas.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

LB, going to respond to my post? I gave the scans you asked for.


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

ZE said:


> Just two things, Sa*n*bi.


What I meant, was he wouldn't exactly know everything that is going on in the ninja world so he couldn't judge correctly people's power since he probably didn't even see Madara or Hashirama in combat on his mountain.




> I believe that what you wanted to say is: Kyuubi+EMS>Pain. Not the rinengan.
> The rinengan defeated the Jyuubi in the past, which had the EMS. So, RS?s Rinengan>Jyuubi>Kyuubi+EMS.


That too, but Nagato's Rinnegan is worse then both RS's and EMS + Kyuubi IMO. Too much power for it to handle.


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## ZE (May 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> I think Jūbi Madara would be > Jūbi Rikodou.



I think the one with a healthy body would most likely be the stronger one. 
Jyuubi Madara would be current Madara with the jyuubi?s power, in other words, someone with a weakened body trying to control the jyuubi vs someone who could control the jyuubi's power. And Madara's goal depends on something RS built, the moon.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> What I meant, was he wouldn't exactly know everything that is going on in the ninja world so he couldn't judge correctly people's power since he probably didn't even see Madara or Hashirama in combat on his mountain.[/quote[
> Thus without their feats, they cannot equal Pain.
> 
> 
> ...


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> LB, going to respond to my post? I gave the scans you asked for.



He said he hoped Sasuke could weaken then so he could take some hostages. Not that he was so weak himself that he couldn't do anything.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

Let's not go that crazy...it's unsure as of yet. If Pain were healthy and fully ready it MAY be different, but it's impossible to say



LegendaryBeauty said:


> He said he hoped Sasuke could weaken then so he could take some hostages. Not that he was so weak himself that he couldn't do anything.




My apologies, here's the next page.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> My apologies, here's the next page.



He says that he no longer has his former powers. Naturally, he wouldn't if he went up with someone as powerful as Hashirama. He still has his intangibility/warping power, which should be able to allow him to take some hostages. 

Imagine if Hashirama did this to Madara, what he would do to Pain. Furthers my point, actually.


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## ZE (May 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> Sure, Isaac Newton said if I see further then it's because I stand on the shoulders of giants, but you have to admit, ZE, that Jūbi Madara's utter omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence over a different reality trumps Jūbi Rikodou sovereign ability to manipulate reality.



Yeah, I can admit that jyuubi Madara + one of RS?s jutsus (the moon) would make Madara a God. In that case, Madara wouldn't have all the merit.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> He says that he no longer has his former powers. Naturally, he wouldn't if he went up with someone as powerful as Hashirama. He still has his intangibility/warping power, which should be able to allow him to take some hostages.



He needed people weakened so his warping power would work. Hell, look at what Fu and Torune did to him.


> Imagine if Hashirama did this to Madara, what he would do to Pain. Furthers my point, actually.


Yeah, lose. All his jutsus get drained by Hungry Ghost or Nagato himself (An defence which has no limit and thus, even Bijuu will be useless), he's turned into a ragdoll by the Shinra Tensei, hit by a Macross Missile Massacre, swarmed by Boss Sized summons (Given that Gamabunta can hold his own against Bijuu...), Nagato reviving all the bodies with the Outer Path, or hell, Chibaku Tensei...


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## Sanbi (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Thus without their feats, they cannot equal Pain.


This whole thread is based around hype, and if you can't use hype to judge characters, you shouldn't be making lists.

Considering how strong Prime Madara is, with the Kyuubi and EMS Pain would stand no chance. And if Madara can do that, Hashirama would have no problem.





> Consider that an insanely weakened and exhausted Pain contained a KN8 Kyubi, a full on Pain? He could seal Kyubi with no effort in a Chibaku Tensei.


No, he only became insanely weakened and exhausted after preforming Chibaku Tensei. Deva's body was about to die, but his chakra supply wasn't damaged at all, so he could still preform. It isn't about the state of his body, but the state of Nagato.

The full Kyuubi is a whole nother level then KN8.


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## Smiley (May 9, 2010)

*Spoiler*: __ 



We'll just all have to wait and see what Nagato himself can really do when he is brought back by kabuto's Edo Tensei.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He needed people weakened so his warping power would work. Hell, look at what Fu and Torune did to him.



Phase through him?



> Yeah, lose. All his jutsus get drained by Hungry Ghost or Nagato himself (An defence which has no limit and thus, even Bijuu will be useless), he's turned into a ragdoll by the Shinra Tensei, hit by a Macross Missile Massacre, swarmed by Boss Sized summons (Given that Gamabunta can hold his own against Bijuu...), Nagato reviving all the bodies with the Outer Path, or hell, Chibaku Tensei...



Or Pain gets speedblitzed/enclosed by huge wooden beams that solo Bijuus.


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> He says that he no longer has his former powers. Naturally, he wouldn't if he went up with someone as powerful as Hashirama. He still has his intangibility/warping power, which should be able to allow him to take some hostages.
> 
> Imagine if Hashirama did this to Madara, what he would do to Pain. Furthers my point, actually.



A. He says he's a shell of his former self and directly refutes Onoki's notion he should've been able to attack the summit on his own. His intangibility and warping powers aren't that useful for a high level fight because he needs to be tangible to attack. 
B. Logical fallacy here. You can't just assume because Hashirama beat Madara back in the day he's stronger than Pain if that's what's under contention (note the if)



> Phase through him?


Torune infected his arm

Phase through him?


> Or Pain gets speedblitzed/enclosed by huge wooden beams that solo Bijuus.


Evidence He's faster?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> This whole thread is based around hype, and if you can't use hype to judge characters, you shouldn't be making lists.


Hype shouldn't be used unless characters have feats to back them up.


> Considering how strong Prime Madara is, with the Kyuubi and EMS Pain would stand no chance. And if Madara can do that, Hashirama would have no problem.


Yeah, what can Prime Madara _actually do?_ Consider he failed to destroy Konoha twice even WITH the Kyubi while Pain destroyed Konoha without any help, I'd say Pain is comfortably stronger than him.

And to deal with Kyubi? Chibaku Tensei, seal it inside a small moon and pwn the shit out of its summoner. 





> No, he only became insanely weakened and exhausted after preforming Chibaku Tensei. Deva's body was about to die, but his chakra supply wasn't damaged at all, so he could still preform. It isn't about the state of his body, but the state of Nagato.


Uh, did you fail to see Nagato's mouth bleeding from yet ANOTHER huge source of chakra being leached from him? 

Nagato was running on _empty_ by that point. Yet _still_ after using the Chou Shinra Tensei and bleeding his life dry, losing most of his bodies, he was STILL able to complete a Chibaku Tensei that held the KN8 Naruto.


> The full Kyuubi is a whole nother level then KN8.


Hence why Pain can just make a bigger, stronger Chibaku Tensei if he was healthy and fresh. Hell even in his weakened state, he stated he could create an even bigger one.



LegendaryBeauty said:


> Phase through him?


He lost his arm to them. Freaking Kage Bodyguards that accompanied Danzo, he lost his arm to them.




> Or Pain gets speedblitzed/enclosed by huge wooden beams that solo Bijuus.


Since when is Hashirama a speedster in the slightest? Now you're just reaching and making assumptions. And not only that, drain the chakra from the wood and snap, becomes easily breakable. And never mind the fact that the bodies are insanely fast, able to trade blows with Sage Mode fighters.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 9, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> A. He says he's a shell of his former self and directly refutes Onoki's notion he should've been able to attack the summit on his own. His intangibility and warping powers aren't that useful for a high level fight because he needs to be tangible to attack.



He needs Sasuke for his plans. To make it easier, among other things. I highly doubt that Madara is useless now.



> B. Logical fallacy here. You can't just assume because Hashirama beat Madara back in the day he's stronger than Pain if that's what's under contention (note the if)



No, I assume that Hashirama's a legendary ninja whose clan has fought the Uchiha time after time, defeated Madara, and Madara is in control of Pain, among other factors, that Hashirama would be able to defeat Pain.



> Torune infected his arm
> 
> And do you recall what he did afterwards? Why he's not dead?
> 
> ...


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## Lightysnake (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> He needs Sasuke for his plans. To make it easier, among other things. I highly doubt that Madara is useless now.


Madara himself disagrees. He's a powerless shell of his former self without many or any of his old abilities.



> No, I assume that Hashirama's a legendary ninja whose clan has fought the Uchiha time after time, defeated Madara, and Madara is in control of Pain, among other factors, that Hashirama would be able to defeat Pain.


Except-and here's the except- the reason Madara is controlling Pain isn't because he's more powerful-the manga excerpt announces Pain as the strongest member of Akatsuki which included Madara at the time- but because he took advantage of Pain's desires for peace, allowing him to manipulate Pain.
You're talking like Pain was afraid of Madara or controlled via superior firepower



> > Torune infected his arm
> 
> 
> Which Madara ripped off to prevent the infection from spreading
> ...


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## copycat123 (May 9, 2010)

Selim said:


> Sure, Isaac Newton said if I see further then it's because I stand on the shoulders of giants, but you have to admit, ZE, that Jūbi Madara's utter omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence over a different reality trumps Jūbi Rikodou sovereign ability to manipulate reality.



Juubi rikudo had no equal - even admitted by Madara himself. And he did not hint either at his superiority over juubi rikudo even if he gains juubi. 

Now having said that, I don't think that madara will gain juubi to that perfect level that rikudo gained. because one way or another, naruto (with half kyubi or not) is supposed to beat him. There is only so much suspension of belief that can be applied here.

second point, juubi rikudo was benevolent. So the assumptions that madara's mugen tsukyomi or whatever makes him look more powerful than juubi rikudo can be hotly debated *(to me at least)*. Who knows what would have happened if juubi rikudo turned evil?
*If anything, the muugen tsukyomi can be easily countered with rinnegan's own hype of salvaging creation or turning eveything to dust. As much hype as that sounds on part of rinnegan, with the juubi in rikudo, it does not seem far-fetched at all.*. - The bijuu creation and the moon creation itself testifies to that.

even madara's "immortality" does not gain him much of an edge over rikudo since good guys hardly gains or pursues mortality even if they have the ability to do so. Hidan, Sasori, Oro all had some form of immortality but all of them would have been pulverized by juubi rikudo. 

*Summary:* Juubi Madara may be stronger than juubi rikudo (hopefully manga logic supports it then), but even madara's plans of muugen tsukuyomi does not place him in an equivalent footing to juubi rikudo *in my humble opinion.* (given rikudo's mentioned feats at the moment)


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 9, 2010)

LegendaryBeauty said:


> He needs Sasuke for his plans. To make it easier, among other things. I highly doubt that Madara is useless now.


He lost an arm to Fu and Torune, he is useless in combat now.




> No, I assume that Hashirama's a legendary ninja whose clan has fought the Uchiha time after time, defeated Madara, and Madara is in control of Pain, among other factors, that Hashirama would be able to defeat Pain.


Madara and Pain controlled each other, gave each other orders and had two different goals. Hashirama wouldnt' be able to defeat Pain since Pain neutralizes all of his abilities. Fukasaku and Madara called Pain invincible, you know that right?


> And do you recall what he did afterwards? Why he's not dead?
> Yeah, he severed the arm. But it still proves a point-he's VULNERABLE.
> 
> 
> Have you seen the speed at which the wooden beams travel from Yamato? How fast he did against Hiruzen?


And have you seen how fast SM Naruto and Jiraiya are? Or the fact they can effortlessly dodge Raikiris and Rasenshurikens?

The Pains are fast.


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## Judecious (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Honestly, Bee and A are way too low. Bee is a fully realized Jinchuuriki who can control the entirety of his beast and A is the fastest living character in the series with insane strength and bijuu level chakra. Why you put Naruto and Sasuke above them makes no sense whatsoever, why you put Deidara above them makes no sense either since they both beat him in speed and the elements.
> 
> You call A and Bee overrated, why is that? They've lived up to their hype and are top tier characters.
> 
> ...



bee needed raikage help to finish off kisame when kisame was fighting th whole fight without killer instinct.

i call bee and raikage overrated by this forum, people think bee could actually beat pain without knowledge and that his .

well i think sasuke and naruto are slightly above jiraiya and itachi that's why i put them above

if gaara isnt in the desert, he isnt shit. but if he is in the desert he is top tier


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> bee needed raikage help to finish off kisame when kisame was fighting th whole fight without killer instinct.


First off, thats a Kisame Clone. Secondly, Bee was holding back greatly because he was protecting Ponta and Sabu. Bee didn't even go full Bijuu against Kisame if you remember since Ponta and Sabu would be caught in the crossfire.


> i call bee and raikage overrated by this forum, people think bee could actually beat pain without knowledge and that his .


I know, its frustrating, but Bee and A _are_ incredibly powerful. Bee is a fully realized Jinchuuriki, can control all eight tails of Hachibi, can assume Hachibi's form...you can see why people overestimate him. But you can also see why he's top tier.

And A is the fastest character in the series, having dodged the Amaterasu and has a high level of strength which can create a 20 foot deep crater and smash an entire room. Plus Bijuu Level Chakra and genjutsu immunity, he's a beast. They're the two strongest living characters at the moment.


> well i think sasuke and naruto are slightly above jiraiya and itachi that's why i put them above


Sasuke and Naruto have yet to fully surpass Jiraiya and Itachi. Sasuke needs to gain his brothers genjutsu skills and Naruto needs a wider variety of ninjutsu and more out of battle knowledge. 


> if gaara isnt in the desert, he isnt shit. but if he is in the desert he is top tier


Gaara can CREATE his own desert, remember? And he blocked the Amaterasu.


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## Soul (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More refined list after giving more thought:
> 
> 0. Rikudou Sennin
> 1. Nagato
> ...



So...
Tsunade is more powerful in fights than Sasori and Deidara?
Seriously?

Also, how is Konan stronger than Kakashi?
Killer Bee is stronger than Naruto, and Itachi is weaker than both?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> So...
> Tsunade is more powerful in fights than Sasori and Deidara?
> Seriously?


Tsunade is seriously underrated here. She is a powerful Sannin, and is the most suited for fighting Orochimaru or Sasori.


> Also, how is Konan stronger than Kakashi?


Since even with Kamui, Kakashi is unlikely to kill or injure her? And she can suffocate him.


> Killer Bee is stronger than Naruto


Yes. Killer Bee is stronger than Naruto, he can control his beast fully. Naruto can't.


> and Itachi is weaker than both?


Given how Naruto has improved his chakra control, and in Sage Mode would be mostly immune to Itachi's genjutsu, and given how Killer Bee _is_ immune to genjutsu, yeah. And Itachi's low stamina brings him down.


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## Soul (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsunade is seriously underrated here. She is a powerful Sannin, and is the most suited for fighting Orochimaru or Sasori.



False.
An unrestricted Tsunade can't do shit to an unrestricted Orochimaru.
And Sasori would kill her just with the Sandaime Kazekage puppet.



> Since even with Kamui, Kakashi is unlikely to kill or injure her? And she can suffocate him.



This is about strength, not matchs ups.



> Yes. Killer Bee is stronger than Naruto, he can control his beast fully. Naruto can't.



Naruto has Sage Mode.
Naruto has a more powerful beast.



> Given how Naruto has improved his chakra control, and in Sage Mode would be mostly immune to Itachi's genjutsu



he improved his chakra control a lot with the "Fuuton training", and he still was powerless against Itachi's Genjutsu.



> and given how Killer Bee _is_ immune to genjutsu, yeah. And Itachi's low stamina brings him down.



I respectfully disagree.


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## Judecious (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> First off, thats a Kisame Clone. Secondly, Bee was holding back greatly because he was protecting Ponta and Sabu. Bee didn't even go full Bijuu against Kisame if you remember since Ponta and Sabu would be caught in the crossfire.



bee wasn't the only one holding back, kisame was also holding back, remember its harder to capture someone alive than to kill them



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I know, its frustrating, but Bee and A _are_ incredibly powerful. Bee is a fully realized Jinchuuriki, can control all eight tails of Hachibi, can assume Hachibi's form...you can see why people overestimate him. But you can also see why he's top tier.


i know he is top but as high as people rate him, kisame, naruto, full master MS sasuke, Pain, jiraiya and itachi could beat him



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And A is the fastest character in the series, having dodged the Amaterasu and has a high level of strength which can create a 20 foot deep crater and smash an entire room. Plus Bijuu Level Chakra and genjutsu immunity, he's a beast. They're the two strongest living characters at the moment..



no they are not, naruto, sasuke and kabuto could take them both out. naruto in SM is stronger than raikage so is tsunade, also raikage is fast but he isnt going to blitz the likes of SM naruto or sasuke. sasuke with full susano would have taken raikage out.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke and Naruto have yet to fully surpass Jiraiya and Itachi. Sasuke needs to gain his brothers genjutsu skills and Naruto needs a wider variety of ninjutsu and more out of battle knowledge.



if we are talking about raw power then yes naruto has surpass jiraiya and sasuke has surpass itachi, itachi can't really get sasuke in a genjutsu and sasuke will just outlast him because he has more stamina



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gaara can CREATE his own desert, remember? And he blocked the Amaterasu.



well he could still bee beat by the likes of kakuzu if he isn't in the desert


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

TheYellowFlash10 said:


> False.
> An unrestricted Tsunade can't do shit to an unrestricted Orochimaru.


Despite having a technique that can kill him in a few seconds, yeah.


> And Sasori would kill her just with the Sandaime Kazekage puppet.


If Sakura with Chiyo's help can destroy the puppet, how will Tsuande do?




> This is about strength, not matchs ups.


Yes, and the strength that Konan has shown is higher than Kakashi. Not by much though.




> Naruto has Sage Mode.
> Naruto has a more powerful beast.


1. Killer Bee is insanely durable even in base, and can go eight tail version 1 or version 2 to compete with Sage Mode.
2. Which he cannot control in the slightest. Once he can, he'll surpass Killer Bee easily. But right NOW? No way in hell.




> he improved his chakra control a lot with the "Fuuton training", and he still was powerless against Itachi's Genjutsu.


Naruto attacked forgetting the carnal rule for fighting Itachi-_don't look into his eyes._ Not only that, he didn't even _attempt_ to break it.

And Sage Mode Training was the ultimate showing of his control since to enter it you have to balance and control the natural energy in your body to create a new chakra.




> I respectfully disagree.


Itachi's best attacks are limited to three or four a day, he can't really fight a prolonged battle, he doesn't have any high level ninjutsu, and relies on genjutsu too much. His stamina really brings him down.


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## Soul (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Despite having a technique that can kill him in a few seconds, yeah.



Nothing aside Chibaku Tensei, a chakra blast from a Bijuu or C4 can kill Orochimaru in seconds.



> If Sakura with Chiyo's help can destroy the puppet, how will Tsuande do?



Chiyo had a great knowledge on the puppets + Sasori was fucked by PIS/PnJ.



> Yes, and the strength that Konan has shown is higher than Kakashi. Not by much though.



Are you serious?



> Naruto attacked forgetting the carnal rule for fighting Itachi-_don't look into his eyes._



You said that he could break it, so why is this a "rule" that he must obey?



> Not only that, he didn't even _attempt_ to break it.



Maybe because he knows that he can't do shit 



I didn't replied to the rest because it's either an agree-to-disagree point or it won't lead anywhere.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> bee wasn't the only one holding back, kisame was also holding back, remember its harder to capture someone alive than to kill them


Yes, but Bee was holding back more. There is no doubt in full Hachibi form Kisame would have lost due to the fact the Hachibi was made out of flesh and bone now, not out of chakra. 



> i know he is top but as high as people rate him, kisame, naruto, full master MS sasuke, Pain, jiraiya and itachi could beat him


Only Pain and Jiraiya are stronger than A and Killer Bee. Kisame had to make Killer Bee hold back greatly to even have a chance of beating him. Naruto is just not on Bee's or A's level yet. MS Sasuke still is vulnerable to speed blitz, and his Amaterasu and Susano'o attacks are useless against Bee and A. And Itachi is either speedblitzed or blown to oblivion.




> no they are not, naruto, sasuke and kabuto could take them both out.


No, they couldn't. Naruto, Sasuke, and Kabuto are all vulnerable to the speed blitz.


> naruto in SM is stronger than raikage so is tsunade


Only SM Naruto is fast enough to keep up with A, but Tsunade isn't.


> also raikage is fast but he isnt going to blitz the likes of SM naruto or sasuke. sasuke with full susano would have taken raikage out.


Naruto, I'll grant you due to his durability. A ALREADY speedblitzed Sasuke, and he already smashed Susano'o. All he'd have to do is wait for Sasuke to wear himself out and then smash through a weaker Susano'o and break Sasuke's neck.

And full Hachibi mode Bee crushes either of them.







> well he could still bee beat by the likes of kakuzu if he isn't in the desert


Gaara kind of can create his own desert, you know that?


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## Judecious (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, but Bee was holding back more. There is no doubt in full Hachibi form Kisame would have lost due to the fact the Hachibi was made out of flesh and bone now, not out of chakra.



kisame took out the 4 tail with ease in full form so why don't you think he could do it same to be with diffculty. also bee will still lose chakra even in full form



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only Pain and Jiraiya are stronger than A and Killer Bee. Kisame had to make Killer Bee hold back greatly to even have a chance of beating him. Naruto is just not on Bee's or A's level yet. MS Sasuke still is vulnerable to speed blitz, and his Amaterasu and Susano'o attacks are useless against Bee and A. And Itachi is either speedblitzed or blown to oblivion.



SM naruto could also take him out, i really don't see what bee can do when naruto has the toads in the battle field. and sasuke also full powered MS sasuke could take down bee unless bee is capable of evading susano arrows or blasting a hole through it like danzo. A and Bee can't get through itachi susano and itachi could also seal them away.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, they couldn't. Naruto, Sasuke, and Kabuto are all vulnerable to the speed blitz.



naruto isn't vulnerable to anything, he's faster than bee and he has more strength and add in th kyuubi and bee is no where near naruto's lvl and sasuke won't get blitz either, also what can bee or raikage do to edo tensei, they have to defense to that jutsu



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Only SM Naruto is fast enough to keep up with A, but Tsunade isn't.



well tsunade won't need to be fast she can keep her distance and just destroy the place



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto, I'll grant you due to his durability. A ALREADY speedblitzed Sasuke, and he already smashed Susano'o. All he'd have to do is wait for Sasuke to wear himself out and then smash through a weaker Susano'o and break Sasuke's neck.



he smashed a weaken susano, i will like to see him try and do that to a full power susano. sasuke will burn his down before he does that



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And full Hachibi mode Bee crushes either of them.
> 
> Gaara kind of can create his own desert, you know that?



full hachibi is not crushing anything, did you see it's perfomace vs team taka. it looked like kn4 was stronger than it

well not as effective outside the desert


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> kisame took out the 4 tail with ease in full form so why don't you think he could do it same to be with diffculty. also bee will still lose chakra even in full form


Kisame took out the Four Tail who _couldn't control his beast_, we don't even know if Roshi assumed the form or not. And Eight Tails is made out of bone and muscle, not chakra, robbing Kisame of his primary advantage. 




> SM naruto could also take him out, i really don't see what bee can do when naruto has the toads in the battle field.


Other than blow the shit out of the toads with a Menacing Ball? Seriously, if Gamabunta struggles with Shukaku, what chance does he have against the Hachibi? 


> and sasuke also full powered MS sasuke could take down bee unless bee is capable of evading susano arrows or blasting a hole through it like danzo.


He'll either evade the arrows or blow the Susano'o to hell. Hell I doubt it can tank a V2 Lariat. Not only that,  a fully transformed Bee? Menacing Ball-good bye Sasuke.


> A and Bee can't get through itachi susano and itachi could also seal them away.


A can dance around Itachi's Susano'o and let him tire himself out. Bee'll just blow it all to hell in full Hachibi form, if a Kirin can take it out, forcing it to fully reform, a Menacing Ball can completely destroy it with ease and kill Itachi.




> naruto isn't vulnerable to anything


Base Naruto is vulnerable to a Lariat Speedblitz or an Elbow Speedblitz. He doesn't have the advantage of the Sharingan which Sasuke did.


> he's faster than bee and he has more strength and add in th kyuubi and bee is no where near naruto's lvl and sasuke won't get blitz either


Yeah, Bee is on a higher level than Naruto and Sasuke. _Why else would Naruto need to *learn* from Bee if he's already stronger than him?_

And Sasuke already was blitzed by Bee and A.


> also what can bee or raikage do to edo tensei, they have to defense to that jutsu


Kill the user before he uses it, that's what. Kabuto isn't on their level of speed.




> well tsunade won't need to be fast she can keep her distance and just destroy the place


Before or after A seperates her head from her neck with a Lariat? Dude, you don't seem to get the massive speed advantage A has over Tsunade. 




> he smashed a weaken susano, i will like to see him try and do that to a full power susano. sasuke will burn his down before he does that


I have no doubt that A could smash through Sasuke's full Susano'o if Danzo could do it. And A again, _can dodge the Amaterasu_, Sasuke ain't touching him.




> full hachibi is not crushing anything, did you see it's perfomace vs team taka. it looked like kn4 was stronger than it


Did you see that Bee _was throwing the fight against Taka?_ And Hachibi's blast covered the entirety of the Lightning Valley, you know that right?


> well not as effective outside the desert


Prove it isn't.


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## Judecious (May 10, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame took out the Four Tail who _couldn't control his beast_, we don't even know if Roshi assumed the form or not. And Eight Tails is made out of bone and muscle, not chakra, robbing Kisame of his primary advantage.



what he was able to control but not to the lvl that bee does but that doesnt matter kisame is made to take out guys like bee. this is what i talk about when i say people overhype bee.
[/QUOTE]




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Other than blow the shit out of the toads with a Menacing Ball? Seriously, if Gamabunta struggles with Shukaku, what chance does he have against the Hachibi?



what gamabunta was not even struggles unless you really think bee could take on naruto+his toad which is ridiculous



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He'll either evade the arrows or blow the Susano'o to hell. Hell I doubt it can tank a V2 Lariat. Not only that,  a fully transformed Bee? Menacing Ball-good bye Sasuke.




blow the susano is hell is not going to happen, danzo was able to because he was smart enough to attack from behind and A or bee or not even as smart as danzo. that didn't work well on suigestu



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A can dance around Itachi's Susano'o and let him tire himself out. Bee'll just blow it all to hell in full Hachibi form, if a Kirin can take it out, forcing it to fully reform, a Menacing Ball can completely destroy it with ease and kill Itachi.



A is dancing through shit because susano will get him eventually. kirin didnt take it down



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Base Naruto is vulnerable to a Lariat Speedblitz or an Elbow Speedblitz. He doesn't have the advantage of the Sharingan which Sasuke did.



how fast does naruto turn into SM. its a matter of seconds and he isnt going to get blitz, people seem to underestimate naruto base speed.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yeah, Bee is on a higher level than Naruto and Sasuke. _Why else would Naruto need to *learn* from Bee if he's already stronger than him?_
> 
> And Sasuke already was blitzed by Bee and A.



so wait according to you if you need to learn from someone that makes someone stronger than you. i guess kakashi is still stronger than naruto because naruto is his student.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kill the user before he uses it, that's what. Kabuto isn't on their level of speed.
> 
> Before or after A seperates her head from her neck with a Lariat? Dude, you don't seem to get the massive speed advantage A has over Tsunade.




that is not happening suigestu and jugo were keeping up with raikage before he even used his armor so no they won't blitz kabuto and you can se how fast he can summon edo tensei




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I have no doubt that A could smash through Sasuke's full Susano'o if Danzo could do it. And A again, _can dodge the Amaterasu_, Sasuke ain't touching him.
> 
> Did you see that Bee _was throwing the fight against Taka?_ And Hachibi's blast covered the entirety of the Lightning Valley, you know that right?




again danzo did it from the back side because he was smart enough to realize it and he knew what susano was and A is no where as smart as danzo

so what KN4 blast was bigger than the hachibi ball


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> what he was able to control but not to the lvl that bee does but that doesnt matter kisame is made to take out guys like bee. this is what i talk about when i say people overhype bee.


Kisame was made to take out guys WEAKER than Bee, who couldn't control their beasts. Kisame needed to keep Killer Bee distracted, threaten Sabu and Ponta, etc. All to keep Killer Bee from assuming his full form. 

In essence, Kisame really didn't beat Bee. Its not overhype-notice how I didn't put him on Pain's level.





> what gamabunta was not even struggles unless you really think bee could take on naruto+his toad which is ridiculous


Gamabunta struggles with the _weakest_ Bijuu, up against the Eight Tails? He gets fucking destroyed.





> blow the susano is hell is not going to happen, danzo was able to because he was smart enough to attack from behind and A or bee or not even as smart as danzo.


Dude, you're overhyping Susano'o. Its an defense that barely tanked the Kirin, why wouldn't a blast that could blow through an entire valley destroy it, or a V2 Lariat? Or A's strength combined with extreme speed?

Dude, you're the only one overestimating people here, not me. Both A and Bee are showing skills that put them above Itachi, Naruto, and Sasuke, yet you keep failing to acknowledge it.


> that didn't work well on suigestu


It nearly killed Suigetsu.




> A is dancing through shit because susano will get him eventually. kirin didnt take it down


1. A is fast enough _to avoid Amaterasu_. Susano'o is _not_ hitting him. Are you ignoring the fact that he _outsped Amaterasu_? And you're also ignoring the fact _he has Bijuu level chakra, Sasuke will run out far before A does._
2. Notice how Itachi was laying on the ground, bloodied, coughing up blood, and without his cloak. He had to completely reform the Susano'o as well. So yes, Kirin did take it down.



> how fast does naruto turn into SM. its a matter of seconds and he isnt going to get blitz, people seem to underestimate naruto base speed.


Naruto needs a few seconds or sitting still in place for a bit to get into Sage Mode, something that A and Bee _will not give him._




> so wait according to you if you need to learn from someone that makes someone stronger than you. i guess kakashi is still stronger than naruto because naruto is his student.


Naruto doesn't need to learn from Kakashi anymore, Kakashi already admitted he was surpassed. Killer Bee is still comfortably a tier higher than Naruto, like how Kakashi was before the Fuuton Training.

When Naruto can master the entirety of Kyubi, he'll surpass Bee. But currently? He's not even close. What don't you get about that?





> that is not happening suigestu and jugo were keeping up with raikage before he even used his armor so no they won't blitz kabuto and you can se how fast he can summon edo tensei


Suigetsu and Jugo were keeping up-barely in fact, with a form 1 A. And even then, A was fast enough to dodge Jugo's entire blast that shot at him in a second. Kabuto isn't fast enough to keep up.






> again danzo did it from the back side because he was smart enough to realize it and he knew what susano was and A is no where as smart as danzo


Why wouldn't A not be as smart as Danzo? He's observant, and when he has a cool head shows a calm, tactical mind. And A's fast enough to get behind Susano'o. smash it, and leave Sasuke vulnerable.


> so what KN4 blast was bigger than the hachibi ball


No, it wasn't. KN4 blast barely was bigger than the Triple Rashoman, the Hachibi ball was strong enough to _cover an entire valley and leave *mountains dwarfed.*_

Dude, I respect you and all, but you really, _seriously_ need to give some credit to A and Bee. They aren't weak. They aren't idiots. They are two of the strongest living characters right now. Stronger than both Naruto and Sasuke, and their feats reflect this.


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## Jinnobi (May 10, 2010)

> Dude, I respect you and all, but you really, seriously need to give some credit to A and Bee. They aren't weak. They aren't idiots. They are two of the strongest living characters right now. Stronger than both Naruto and Sasuke, and their feats reflect this.



This is just hype.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2010)

Ninja that are currently walking the planet I would guess go like this:

00. Madara
01. Itachi
02. Nagato
03. Sasuke
04. Kabuto
05. Kisame
06. Deidara
07. Kirābī
08. Naruto
09. Gaara
10. Sasori
11. Kakashi
12. Ē
13. Kakuzu
14. Tsunade
15. Ōnoki
16. Gai
17. Mei
18. Zetsu 
19. Konan
20. Jūgo

I'm ignoring adding Kabuto's summons to his power, obviously.


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## Judecious (May 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> Ninja that are currently walking the planet I would guess go like this:
> 
> 00. Madara
> 01. Itachi
> ...



itachi as #2 and madara being 1 just made is one fail, also deidara and bee so high.
itachi, nagato and most guys on this list are not walking the planet dude


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## Lightysnake (May 10, 2010)

How on earth do you take summons from Kabuto's power, indicate Itachi as stronger than Nagato or put Madara as above everyone?
Was Madara stating he was a shell of his former self with none of his old power not enough?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

Selim, you have one of the worst lists I've ever seen. Itachi above Nagato? WTF? Nagato is so much stronger than Itachi its not even funny. Sasuke just barely below Nagato? He hasn't demonstrated _anything_ that puts him that far. Hell in the manga _its stated that Naruto and Sasuke are more or less *equal*._ Do you even try anymore? All you do now is fanboy for Itachi or Sasuke or Madara, ignoring the fact their feats don't back up putting them above Nagato or Jiraiya. Hell Itachi even said he and Jiraiya are equals without knowing of Sage Mode, why the hell would Itachi be so much higher than him? 

Why the hell is Kakashi above A? Why the hell is Mei so low? Why the hell are Deidara, Kabuto, and Kisame so high? Where the fuck is Jiraiya or Orochimaru on your list?

Why do you only give Uchiha credit, and not anyone else?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> You do realize that Hermit Mode Jiraiya is likely stronger than this incarnation of Nagato, right? He is now a single individual that will be in all likeliness physically lacking and dependent on Rinnegan and elemental Ninjutsu. He's going to be fucking strong, but nowhere near what he was.


Nagato was prepared to battle KSM Naruto after losing all his bodies and becoming physically exhausted. Sage Mode Jiraiya would be unlikely to beat him. He has all of the Path's powers in his body, so in essence, he's still the strongest. 

Why are you using _Edo Tensei_ as a basis for power now?


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## Lightysnake (May 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> I wanted to calculate Kabuto's individual power as Orochimaru's heir with the added incredible medicinal talent. Nagato is no longer synchronized with Gedō Mazō nor does he have access to Pein Rikudō. Deidara can essentially disregard his own explosions as he is now in an invincible vessel, and everything that was holding Itachi back in his showing against Sasuke no longer is.



Nagato can recreate the six paths. Even on his own? He's no longer crippled, has no restrictions with all his powers, meaning he can use any technique he so chooses


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## Thunder (May 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> Ninja that are currently walking the planet I would guess go like this:
> 
> 00. Madara
> 01. Itachi
> ...



Interesting list, but shouldn't Naruto and Sasuke be at least equal?


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Interesting list, but shouldn't Naruto and Sasuke be at least equal?



Unless Naruto has preparation or knowledge, he won't defeat Sasuke who can keep Susano'o up for ten minutes while spamming Amaterasu and Genjutsu. A single arrow made Kakash resort to ridiculous measures.



Lightysnake said:


> Nagato can recreate the six paths. Even on his own? He's no longer crippled, has no restrictions with all his powers, meaning he can use any technique he so chooses



Pein Rikudō required the black substance from Gedō Mazō to transmit chakra. Nagato is no longer in tune with Gedō Mazō. His massive supply of chakra may also be gone.


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## Lightysnake (May 10, 2010)

And if Naruto's in Sage Mode?


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## Sanbi (May 10, 2010)

I think EMS Sasuke and a fully Kyuubi mastered Naruto are easily equal, if not giving the advantage to Naruto. He also has SM, and could now fuse with Fukasaku and Shima without the Kyuubi disturbing him, so he would have infinite Sage Mode. But we will have to see how much of a power up EMS gives to accurately judge this.

What are your thoughts of a fully mastered Kyuubi Naruto, Selim?


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## Lightysnake (May 10, 2010)

When the hell did Sasuke see the hand seals for it?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

Both Naruto and Sasuke though are equal now. Until Sasuke shows some of his new Dojutsu, thats still true. Remember, both Naruto and Sasuke would die if they really fought.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> I think Naruto said he couldn't defeat Sasuke, *but* that Sasuke would still die. That seems to be a reference to the beast inside him in my opinion, which works with Sasuke believing he won't die as he is aware that the  Mangekyō Sharingan controls the monster.


Naruto said he couldn't defeat Sasuke the same way he beat Nagato-through his words. However, he said if both he and Sasuke go all out, they would die. 

And only Madara can control the Kyubi, not Sasuke even with the MS. Again, we've went over this.


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## Big Mom (May 10, 2010)

Anyone else think Kazuma or for that matter any filler ninja makes the list?


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## Maerala (May 10, 2010)

Guren _could_, I suppose, but she seems more like an honorable mention to me.


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## IzanagiRikudo (May 10, 2010)

1. Rikudo Sennin
2. Nagato (no sickness)
3. Hashirama
4. Madara (prime)
5. Hiruzen (prime)
6. Minato
7. Naruto
8. Hanzo
9. Jiraiya
10. Itachi


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## Thunder (May 10, 2010)

IzanagiRikudo said:


> 1. Rikudo Sennin
> 2. Nagato (no sickness)
> 3. Hashirama
> 4. Madara (prime)
> ...



You are missing a few key characters like Oro, Danzou, Bee and Sasuke just to name a few. Otherwise, decent first list.


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## Lightysnake (May 10, 2010)

Selim said:


> I think Naruto said he couldn't defeat Sasuke, *but* that Sasuke would still die. That seems to be a reference to the beast inside him in my opinion, which works with Sasuke believing he won't die as he is aware that the  Mangekyō Sharingan controls the monster.



Or you're stretching things.

Naruto said Sasuke would die, but Naruto'd die with him. Period


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## Big Mom (May 10, 2010)

IzanagiRikudo said:


> 1. Rikudo Sennin
> 2. Nagato (no sickness)
> 3. Hashirama
> 4. Madara (prime)
> ...



others:

Oro,
Danzo
Bee
A
Sasuke

but not that good of a list


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 11, 2010)

Selim said:


> Ninja that are currently walking the planet I would guess go like this:
> 
> 00. Madara
> 01. Itachi
> ...



So, you're robbing Kabuto of a source of power that is rightfully his own? 

With that, Kabuto would be most likely No. 1 on the list for sure, even Madara thought it would be a bad idea of fighting him. And Madara is stronger than Pain.

And how in the world is Itachi above Nagato, that's utter BS. Or Sasuke and Kisame above Naruto. Sasuke and Naruto were said to be equals, and Kisame feared Base Jiraiya, not even HM Jiraiya, whom was stated to be surpassed by Sennin Naruto. 

Kakuzu above Tsunade? I wonder why, his Ninjutsu are nowhere as strong as most other S-Class Ninja to date and can't do jack to Boss Summons for example and aren't hax either. Tsunade would destroy him in a fight.

Gai above Mei? This is simply ridiculous. 

These are simply horrendous mistakes, my friend.


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## Cole (May 11, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Kakuzu above Tsunade? I wonder why, his Ninjutsu are nowhere as strong as most other S-Class Ninja to date and can't do jack to Boss Summons for example and aren't hax either. Tsunade would destroy him in a fight.




Kakuzu beats Tsunade in ranged weaponry, firepower, is almost if not just as strong, durability (her punches will not be very effective when Doton: Domu is activated), speed, intelligence, and experience to top that off.

Seriously, he could end the fight by just starting off with his threads and throwing her around for the lulz.


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## Panos (May 11, 2010)

"Kakuzu above Tsunade? I wonder why, his Ninjutsu are nowhere as strong as most other S-Class Ninja to date and can't do jack to Boss Summons for example and aren't hax either. Tsunade would destroy him in a fight."

wtf? Are you serious or just kidding?


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## Dim Mak (May 11, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> So, you're robbing Kabuto of a source of power that is rightfully his own?
> 
> With that, Kabuto would be most likely No. 1 on the list for sure, even Madara thought it would be a bad idea of fighting him. *And Madara is stronger than Pain.*
> And how in the world is Itachi above Nagato, that's utter BS. Or Sasuke and Kisame above Naruto. Sasuke and Naruto were said to be equals, and Kisame feared Base Jiraiya, not even HM Jiraiya, whom was stated to be surpassed by Sennin Naruto.
> ...


Oh really? Last time i checked both Itachi and Madara himself stated that he's a shell of his former self.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 11, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> So, you're robbing Kabuto of a source of power that is rightfully his own?
> 
> With that, Kabuto would be most likely No. 1 on the list for sure, even Madara thought it would be a bad idea of fighting him. And Madara is stronger than Pain.



Madara is not stronger than Pain. His only attack is kicking and punching, which he needs to be _solid_ to do. Anyone with half a brain could exploit that.



> And how in the world is Itachi above Nagato, that's utter BS. Or Sasuke and Kisame above Naruto. Sasuke and Naruto were said to be equals, and Kisame feared Base Jiraiya, not even HM Jiraiya, whom was stated to be surpassed by Sennin Naruto.



Sasuke and Naruto aren't equals. Sasuke is much more deadlier due to his Mangekyou. Naruto is deadly too, but Sage Mode can't be used instantly, whereas the Mangekyou can.

And Kisame "fearing" Jiraiya doesn't mean Jiraiya is stronger. 
(I do agree that Jiraiya is stronger though).



> Kakuzu above Tsunade? I wonder why, his Ninjutsu are nowhere as strong as most other S-Class Ninja to date and can't do jack to Boss Summons for example and aren't hax either.



Oh yeah, your right. Attacks like ,  and  is really weak right?

Kakuzu would easily beat her in a fight. Doton Domu alone would render most of Tsunade's attacks(apart from Ranshinsho) useless and there's also Jinogu.



> Gai above Mei? This is simply ridiculous.



Not really. Odds are, Gai can probably dodge Lava release and hit her before she uses her Acidic jutsu. Besides, whatever damage is done can be partially healed from by the Gate of Healing.




Booya Kun said:


> Oh really? Last time i checked both Itachi and Madara himself stated that he's a shell of his former self.



That just means he's nowhere near as strong as he was before. Which isn't saying much, since his "Prime" self stood at the top of the Ninja world.


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## Lightysnake (May 11, 2010)

Selim said:


> Kabuto would be below Madara in my opinion as these are just guesses that are not based solely on feats. I wanted to express where Kabuto as an individual stood amongst everyone as even without Edo Tensei I expect him to fight like Orochimaru, but with Tsunade's medical talent, which is quite impressive.


So, what makes Madara so high?




> Itachi is now healthy, can see, is bloodlusted, and won't ever get tired. Nagato lacks Gedō Mazō and the Six Paths, which were dependent on the substance from Gedō Mazō and Nagato being synchronized with it. My guess is that as an individual, Nagato and Itachi are substantially stronger than Hermit Mode Jiraiya, but that Itachi's abilities are geared more towards dominating powerful opponents where as Nagato's are more widespread.


They're zombie summons. That's not 'healthy.' And Gedo Mazo is a personal summon of Nagato.



> Kakuzu is a physically invincible individual whom most need Raitons to damage if not an extraordinarily powerful attack on the Rasenshuriken's scale. If you even approach him, he will entangle you with black string and blast you with elemental combinations that destroyed entire forests. On top of this, he is one of the most experienced fighters in existence who can play the mindgame with even Shikamaru.


Tsunade's punches fall under 'extraordinarily powerful.' Domu's borderline useless with her




> Trust me. Itachi snapped at Kisame and told him not to underestimate Gai. Itachi told Nagato to be weary of Gai when they were extracting the Shukaku. The same Itachi that was completely at ease as an eleven year old around Orochimaru. Don't underestimate Gai. He blew away Kisame's shouten clone singlehandedly with no real injury to speak of.


[/Quote]
He did not 'snap' at him. He merely calmly informed him not to underestimate Gai. Itachi wasn't upset, freaking out or unnerved. He merely said "He's quite skilled, don't take him too lightly." So? How does this put Gai at the tier you're trying to say?
And Gai needed the gates for that clone. And Mei has two abilities that put her pretty well ahead of Gai


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> So, you're robbing Kabuto of a source of power that is rightfully his own? With that, Kabuto would be most likely No. 1 on the list for sure, even Madara thought it would be a bad idea of fighting him. And Madara is stronger than Pain.



Kabuto would be below Madara in my opinion as these are just guesses that are not based solely on feats. I wanted to express where Kabuto as an individual stood amongst everyone as even without Edo Tensei I expect him to fight like Orochimaru, but with Tsunade's medical talent, which is quite impressive. 



Wind Master said:


> And how in the world is Itachi above Nagato, that's utter BS. Or Sasuke and Kisame above Naruto. Sasuke and Naruto were said to be equals, and Kisame feared Base Jiraiya, not even HM Jiraiya, whom was stated to be surpassed by Sennin Naruto.



Itachi is now healthy, can see, is bloodlusted, and won't ever get tired. Nagato lacks Gedō Mazō and the Six Paths, which were dependent on the substance from Gedō Mazō and Nagato being synchronized with it. My guess is that as an individual, Nagato and Itachi are stronger than Hermit Mode Jiraiya, but that Itachi's abilities are geared more towards dominating powerful opponents where as Nagato's are more widespread.



Wind Master said:


> Kakuzu above Tsunade? I wonder why, his Ninjutsu are nowhere as strong as most other S-Class Ninja to date and can't do jack to Boss Summons for example and aren't hax either. Tsunade would destroy him in a fight.



Kakuzu is a physically invincible individual whom most need Raitons to damage if not an extraordinarily powerful attack on the Rasenshuriken's scale. If you even approach him, he will entangle you with black string and blast you with elemental combinations that have enormous destuctive potential. On top of this, he is one of the most experienced fighters in existence who can play the mindgame with even Shikamaru.



Wind Master said:


> Gai above Mei? This is simply ridiculous.



Trust me. Itachi snapped at Kisame and told him not to underestimate Gai. Itachi told Nagato to be weary of Gai when they were extracting the Shukaku. The same Itachi that was completely at ease as an eleven year old around Orochimaru. Don't underestimate Gai. He blew away Kisame's shouten clone singlehandedly with no real injury to speak of. He's definitely at the Kage level.


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## Lightysnake (May 11, 2010)

See above response


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2010)

Madara can instantly teleport, can become intangible, has Kamui, and something akin to Shisui's Genjutsu, which he used on the Yondaime Mizukage. Even if he had nothing else in his arsenal, which I seriously doubt, he would be at the top in my opinion.

Edo Tensei bodies seem to be the healthiest around. Madara seemed to indicate that Nagato was just a pawn who had been synchronized with Gedō Mazō and he plans to now synchronize it with Sasuke.

I disagree that Tsunade's blunt force would bother Kakuzu. However, the Hokage is not going to want to approach Kakuzu either way though and would be tangled in the webbing that even Kakashi was caught in before eating an elemental blast.

This is just reading interpretation. In my opinion, there was urgency in Itachi's voice when first addressing Kisame and sagely caution in his voice when speaking to Nagato. Mei has impressive abilities, but the power of Hachimon, which Gai seems to unlock with minimal consequences, trumps her.


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## Lightysnake (May 11, 2010)

Selim said:


> Madara can instantly teleport, can become intangible, has Kamui,



Prove it. He just said Kamui didn't work on him


> and something akin to Shisui's Genjutsu, which he used on the Yondaime Mizukage.


Prove what he did and how.


> Even if he had nothing else in his arsenal, which I seriously doubt, he would be at the top in my opinion.



Madara I am powerless.

Do I believe him or you?



> Edo Tensei bodies seem to be the healthiest around. Madara seemed to indicate that Nagato was just a pawn who had been synchronized with Gedō Mazō and he plans to now synchronize it with Sasuke.


Yeah, and one likely needs the Rinnegan for that. Madara also said he didn't expect Nagato to die and that threw his plans off.
Edo Tensei bodies have not shown they're the 'healthiest around' with unlimited chakra and ignoring every limitation in life



> I disagree that Tsunade's blunt force would bother Kakuzu. However, the Hokage is not going to want to approach Kakuzu either way though and would be tangled in the webbing that even Kakashi was caught in before eating an elemental blast.


If he tries to grab her with his tentacles, he'll go flying. She's too strong for that



> This is just reading interpretation. In my opinion, there was urgency in Itachi's voice when first addressing Kisame and sagely caution in his voice when speaking to Nagato. Mei has impressive abilities, but the power of Hachimon, which Gai seems to unlock with minimal consequences, trumps her.


No, this is you extending more bias in favor of your beloveds.
Itachi's expression didn't change at all. In the anime his tone remains even and level with no urgency or fear or anything. 
Gai needs to stand still and concentrate for a few seconds to use the gates. BAD IDEA with the woman who can melt you or shoot lava in your face. 

So you base Gai's level on your own fanfic of Itachi. That's odd


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## Lightysnake (May 11, 2010)

Selim said:


> Listen, Lightysnake. I don't know why you can't understand that this is a forum board. I'm not biased: it's my opinion. If you don't want hear it then don't fucking ask for it.



And you seem to react with hostility whenever your opinions are challenged. You're 'not biased?' That's not true and you know it. I'm biased on certain subjects, so is everyone else here.

When your opinions are challenged or evidence is presented against them, you rarely ever debate them. Not only that, but you didn't even address the Madara thing. That, and he can't do ANY of that if he wants to attack someone, leaving him at risk


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## Lightysnake (May 11, 2010)

Selim said:


> Listen, go ahead and make a Mei vs Gai thread. From what we know, Gai is stronger. Mei lacks any defensive techniques or reactions feats to not be slapped around by Gai who is the databook confirmed fastest character in the manga matched only by Itachi.



I'd like proof of that. We've seen superior speed feats to Gai. And Itachi to boot. We've also seen both of them matched by people slower. Hell, what would make Hermit Mode Jiraiya

Mei merely has to use her boil release and that's really it. Gai's body breaks down. He tries Gates, he's hit while prepping it. 

Gai is high jounin level, but he's too specialized.

And this is a debate thread. Say something someone else disagreesd with? You'll be challenged. stop complaining whenever that happens, especially when you do it yourself.


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## Lightysnake (May 11, 2010)

How much of a boost? Jiraiya cleared an enormous space in a distance with one frog jump for speed. 

And Mei's mist gives her an advantage just about anywhere


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## daschysta (May 11, 2010)

Mei doesn't currently have the feats to be compared to gai. The fact that she purposely cornered sasuke in an enclosed space implies that it is most effective when it can concentrate in a smaller area. That is not to say that in the future we may find that it works like zabuza's mist, but with her current feats gai should be able to dodge it relatively easily. The heal gate can also likely help him avoiod damage long enough to pummel her. Give her more feats in a future battle and she is PROBABLY stronger than gai, but for now he is above her, as wel don't know enough about the mechanics of her jutsu to declare it above him.


> I'd like proof of that. We've seen superior speed feats to Gai. And Itachi to boot. We've also seen both of them matched by people slower. Hell, what would make Hermit Mode Jiraiya
> 
> Mei merely has to use her boil release and that's really it. Gai's body breaks down. He tries Gates, he's hit while prepping it.
> 
> ...



Your problem here is equating speed and tai. The encounter between kisame and gai proves nothing about their base speeds. Speed only refers to how fast you get from point A to point B, but people act like it makes a huge difference in the outcome of a taijutsu match. For example tsunade may be a bit slower than an opponent, but if the fight is cqc she should be able to hold her own, even against a much faster opponent, because taijutsu skill matters much more in cqc than speed, which is simply movement.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 11, 2010)

Selim said:


> Madara can instantly teleport, can become intangible, has Kamui, and something akin to Shisui's Genjutsu, which he used on the Yondaime Mizukage. Even if he had nothing else in his arsenal, which I seriously doubt, he would be at the top in my opinion.



Most of this is speculation.

He doesn't have Kamui and it's not confirmed whether or not it was him that put the Genjutsu on the Yondaime Mizukage.


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## Thunder (May 11, 2010)

Yes, the technique may later be revealed as a Kamui variant or something (The two seem to be similar), but for now we really don't know.


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## ZE (May 11, 2010)

The Edo Tensei zombies are part of Kabuto’s powers. They are his bitches, from Nagato to Itachi. Technically, the zombies are not Nagato and Itachi, they are just a jutsu of Kabuto and should count as such. Who cares if Nagato has instant regeneration and can spam shou shinra tensei without worrying about his lifespan, it just makes Kabuto stronger, not the original Nagato. 

I didn’t see people arguing that Shodai and Nidaime were retarded for being exactly that when Orochimaru summoned them to fight Sandaime. The feats the zombies perform are part of the summoner’s strength.


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

Well I personally have always separated Edo Tensei from Orochimaru. With Hashirama, Tobirama, and god knows who the third coffin was, Orochimaru would top the list. The same goes for Kabuto. It just fucks everything as their potential strength increases as long as the series continues.

To everyone who remarked on my speculation: I clearly said it was such. Thanks for reminding me. Again.


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## Lelouchprince3 (May 12, 2010)

i agree with ze, edo tensei is apart of the summoners strenght, and selimn you are correct as the series goes on the strenght of the user carries more potential.

and thats why i held orochimaru stronger then jiraiya, because of his practice with forbidden jutsu's, edo tensei so far is the most broken summoning jutsu in the manga, i put oro somewhere between itachi and jiraiya, imagine using edo tensei and then make the second hokage use it as well lolz that would be so broken.


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## Smiley (May 12, 2010)

Selim said:


> With Hashirama, Tobirama, and god knows who the third coffin was



It was Minato Namikaze The Yodaime Hokage


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 12, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Madara is not stronger than Pain. His only attack is kicking and punching, which he needs to be _solid_ to do. Anyone with half a brain could exploit that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, Madara is stronger than Pain. While he is nowhere as strong as he was during his battle with the 1st Hokage, he's still extremely powerful. There is a reason why Itachi admitted he would need the EMS to defeat Madara and Minato also admitted inferiority to him. And now, Itachi and Minato are two of the strongest shinobi to date.

Sasuke and Naruto are equals, period. While Sasuke is quick to use his strongest moves early on, Naruto is much stronger physically and also is more of a strategist. Sasuke's Tai, Speed, Strength and Stamina can't cope with top-tiers. His Intelligence also has somewhat taken a drop with his rashness to use his strongest move, while Naruto's has only increased, and his techniques are used in a much more cunning way.

And it's not a good idea to deny the manga's word, Naruto looked into Sasuke's heart and realized that he and a full-powered Sasuke without blindness would be equals in power, but that he had the potential to become much stronger (EMS). I doubt Naruto would lie or make this up, he's a pretty honest and straight person and not an arrogant jackass like Sasuke often can be.

Kisame fearing Jiraiya does make him all the stronger. You really think someone like Kisame, who lives among Akatsuki S-Ranked Criminals, killed Water Daimyos, brawls with Bijuu and Jinchuriki alike, and is chased all around the Shinobi World as a wanted missing-nin, would fear Jiraiya for anything other than his power?

If he is fused with Samehada, he would do much better and possibly even win, but without, not a chance.

Jiongu isn't a good idea, Tsunade has enough strength to rip it apart easily. There's no given that Doton: Domu would withstand Tsunade's strength. Chouji, while strong, has not shown the same level of 'oomph' in power as Tsunade, not even close. She cracked a large crater in an alleyway just using the tip of her finger and could smash buildings with her kicks. 

If Ranshinsho hits Kakuzu, that can only offer Tsunade a free chance for a barrage. Kakuzu also has no way to kill Katsuya. I never said his attacks weren't strong, just that they aren't as DBZ or Bleach-esque as techniques like Giant Rasengan, Kirin, FRS, Bijuu Cero, C3, C0, etc...And ninja are pretty durable anyway.

Also, Ino and Chouji could run around and evade his Ninjutsu. Considering the former is not really a speed powerhouse and the latter is very chubby and weighty, and yet both were evading him, and Tsunade is an expert of evasion and much faster and agile than both, she would really have no problems. 

She's also pretty durable, and she could likely survive a Ninjutsu and quickly heal herself up with Sozo Saisei. 

When Mei uses her Corrosive Mist, Gai won't even realize it's not normal mist, but rather highly corrosive vapor, until it's too late.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Yes, Madara is stronger than Pain. While he is nowhere as strong as he was during his battle with the 1st Hokage, he's still extremely powerful. There is a reason why Itachi admitted he would need the EMS to defeat Madara and Minato also admitted inferiority to him. And now, Itachi and Minato are two of the strongest shinobi to date.


And Pain is stronger than both Itachi and Minato. Madara is a shell of his former self, he does not have any strong offensive abilities, hence why he couldn't take on the Kages. And Lightysnake and I provided reasons for why Pain is stronger than Madara.

Hell, Wind Master, if an extremely weakened Pain could contain the KN6 and KN8 Naruto, what would a rested, 100% one do Kyubi? Seal it completely within a giant Chibaku Tensei, that's what. Rob Madara of the Kyubi, and he runs like a dog with his tail between his legs. 

Madara relied on the Kyubi too much. Without it, he always retreated. And Pain did what Madara could never do-destroy Konoha. Don't go into 'Konoha had PIS' or 'It wasn't at full strength'. It was. Danzo withheld ROOT since _he knew Pain was unstoppable._ Team Gai would have made no difference, they would have been stomped and destroyed facing Animal Realm, Demon Realm, God Realm, Hell Realm, Hungry Ghost Realm, or Human Realm. Kakashi can't use Kamui right off even bloodlusted, and since Shinra Tensei can dispell any ninjutsu, it was likely to deflect it. 

Sorry, Pain is stronger than Madara. And Pain is much stronger than current Madara, he becomes extremely vulnerable when he has to attack as shown by Fu and Torune.


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

*If* Itachi is shown through flashbacks or his zombie incarnation to be significantly stronger than he was against Sasuke would you consider him being on Nagato's level? His techniques don't allow him to blast away villages, but they are more in tune with taking down high leveled opponents efficiently.

Madara did say Itachi could have killed him. That's something I can really only see Minato or Nagato having a shot at thus far so I would guess that Itachi was, in actuality, a great deal stronger as Zetsu seemed to imply. Although I think I agree that what we saw would put him at about Jiraiya's level although I personally feel his techniques are too deadly for even Jiraiya to handle.

But I digress, Madara is likely on top. He can separate Pein Rikudō fairly easily or confront Nagato himself and warp him to another dimension. Nagato would have extra trouble avoiding that outcome given that he's latched up to machinery to run Pein Rikudō.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2010)

Selim said:


> *If* Itachi is shown through flashbacks or his zombie incarnation to be significantly stronger than he was against Sasuke would you consider him being on Nagato's level? His techniques don't allow him to blast away villages, but they are more in tune with taking down high leveled opponents efficiently.


Itachi's Zombie Incarnation and Itachi himself are two entirely different things. Itachi's Edo Tensei can't tire out, can't get injured, etc. but sacrifices intelligence and everything. 


> Madara did say Itachi could have killed him. That's something I can really only see Minato or Nagato having a shot at thus far so I would guess that Itachi was, in actuality, a great deal stronger as Zetsu seemed to imply. Although I think I agree that what we saw would put him at about Jiraiya's level although I personally feel his techniques are too deadly for even Jiraiya to handle.


Dude, Itachi said the best he could do against Jiraiya is stalemate him, thus making them equals. And Itachi has the weakness of low stamina and everything. 

And Nagato does have a shot at killing Madara-soul sucking jutsu, anyone?


> But I digress, Madara is likely on top. He can separate Pein Rikudō fairly easily or confront Nagato himself and warp him to another dimension. Nagato would have extra trouble avoiding that outcome given that he's latched up to machinery to run Pein Rikudō.


What's stopping Nagato from just summoning himself back?


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## Cole (May 12, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Jiongu isn't a good idea, Tsunade has enough strength to rip it apart easily. There's no given that Doton: Domu would withstand Tsunade's strength. Chouji, while strong, has not shown the same level of 'oomph' in power as Tsunade, not even close. She cracked a large crater in an alleyway just using the tip of her finger and could smash buildings with her kicks.
> 
> If Ranshinsho hits Kakuzu, that can only offer Tsunade a free chance for a barrage. Kakuzu also has no way to kill Katsuya. I never said his attacks weren't strong, just that they aren't as DBZ or Bleach-esque as techniques like Giant Rasengan, Kirin, FRS, Bijuu Cero, C3, C0, etc...And ninja are pretty durable anyway.
> 
> ...



The problem is if she's caught in Jiongu then she'll be immobilized, meaning she won't be able to gain enough momentum to utilize her chakra enhanced strength. Especially if she has all of her limbs tied up like this: 

Ino and Choji only evaded one jutsu: Katon Zukoku, and from the looks of it this jutsu didn't have a far reach but a wide spread, it was a close range jutsu.

Also, if it wasn't for Kakashi, Choji and Ino would've been zapped by the Raiton Gian.

Sozo Saisei required concentration, so Kakuzu could easily follow up with a Doton: Domu punch or another blast in the time it takes for her to heal.


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## Sadgoob (May 12, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude, Itachi said the best he could do against Jiraiya is stalemate him, thus making them equals. And Itachi has the weakness of low stamina and everything.



But lets think about this. What did Itachi know of Jiraiya when he said that he and Kisame wouldn't prevail? Nothing, really, just that he was a Sannin. We know Itachi didn't think much of Orochimaru, who was probably the most feared Sannin of the bunch in terms of reputation. We know Itachi was a secret agent of the Leaf who didn't like senselessly harming people. We know Itachi was only there to remind Danzō he was breathing. We know Itachi didn't want Madara to have Naruto. We know Kisame thought Itachi could beat Jiraiya. We know Itachi said only Madara could beat him at that time. We know Kisame and Itachi could pretty easily overwhelm Jiraiya. We know that Nagato praised Jiraiya in a similar way despite a gap. From what we know, that statement doesn't hold much weight.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What's stopping Nagato from just summoning himself back?



He needs to transmit chakra to the bodies at a nearby, elevated location. A separate dimension is about as far away as you can get.


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## daschysta (May 12, 2010)

Mobius1 said:


> The problem is if she's caught in Jiongu then she'll be immobilized, meaning she won't be able to gain enough momentum to utilize her chakra enhanced strength. Especially if she has all of her limbs tied up like this:
> 
> Ino and Choji only evaded one jutsu: Katon Zukoku, and from the looks of it this jutsu didn't have a far reach but a wide spread, it was a close range jutsu.
> 
> ...



Someone that powerful needs no momentum, she didn't need any momentum really to simply wreck an entire street with the tap of a finger. If she can lift gamabuntas gigantic sword, then she can snap jiongyu like a twig. Her strength is not reliant on momentum.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2010)

Selim said:


> But lets think about this. What did Itachi know of Jiraiya when he said that he and Kisame wouldn't prevail? Nothing, really, just that he was a Sannin. We know Itachi didn't think much of Orochimaru, who was probably the most feared Sannin of the bunch in terms of reputation. We know Itachi was a secret agent of the Leaf who didn't like senselessly harming people. We know Itachi was only there to remind Danzō he was breathing. We know Itachi didn't want Madara to have Naruto. *We know Kisame thought Itachi could beat Jiraiya.* We know Itachi said only Madara could beat him at that time. *We know Kisame and Itachi could pretty easily overwhelm Jiraiya. *From what we know, that statement doesn't hold much weight.
> We don't know that part. That's just an excuse to give Itachi another dose of favoritism. Jiraiya held the advantage over both of them and Itachi even said the best he could do was stalemate Jiraiya. And Jiraiya's battle with Pain shows that he could stalemate Itachi.
> 
> 
> ...


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 13, 2010)

Tier 0:
-Rikudo-Sannin (Jyuubi Jinchuriki)

Tier 1:
-Rikudo-Sannin 
-Uchiha Madara-Prime 
-Hashirama Senju 
-Rikudou 's Elder / Younger son
-Kabuto Yakushi

Tier 2:
-Madara-Current
-Itachi Uchiha
-Kirabi
-Nagato
-Minato Namikaze
-Sasuke Uchiha
-Naruto Uzumaki

Tier 3:
-Jiraiya 
-Orochimaru
-Hanzou the Salamander 
-A 
-White Fang
-Sarutobi-Prime
-Kisame Hoshigaki
-Danzō Shimura


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## Atlantic Storm (May 13, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> It was Minato Namikaze The Yodaime Hokage



Speculation. It's unlikely that it was though, since Minato's soul was in the Shinigami.



Wind Master said:


> Yes, Madara is stronger than Pain. While he is nowhere as strong as he was during his battle with the 1st Hokage, he's still extremely powerful.



No he isn't. Like I said, Madara can only punch and kick, which he needs to become solid to do and anyone could take advantage of that.



> There is a reason why Itachi admitted he would need the EMS to defeat Madara and Minato also admitted inferiority to him.



Minato said Madara saw through everything he did. He never said he couldn't beat him. 

Itachi was just saying that to keep up his facade against Sasuke.



> Sasuke and Naruto are equals, period. While Sasuke is quick to use his strongest moves early on, Naruto is much stronger physically and also is more of a strategist.



What? Sasuke has never not used a tactic or a strategy against his opponents in P2.


Deidara - Self explanatory. The fight was littered with Sasuke's tactics.
Itachi - Kirin, Oral Rebirth etc.

Killer Bee - ...None.
The Raikage - Covering Susano-o with Amaterasu because he knew E was a close range fighter.
Danzo - The timing of his last Tsukuyomi



> Sasuke's Tai, Speed, Strength and Stamina can't cope with top-tiers.



Sasuke's Taijutsu is just as good as base Naruto's. He has a better technique, has a sword to aid him(also meaning he is more deadly), Chidori Nagishi and Susano-o for defense, speed and Sharingan to predict attacks. His speed is one of the best in the Narutoverse. He's been noted to be very fast by Deidara, the same person who waltzed through Team Gai, while extremely tired, missing arms and had nothing but a Kunai in his mouth.

His physical strength may not be that good, but he's mainly a Taijutsu fighter. Most of his attacks are practically OHKO already, depending on where he landed them.

His Intelligence also has somewhat taken a drop with his rashness to use his strongest move, while Naruto's has only increased, and his techniques are used in a much more cunning way.

I'm pretty sure his stamina is high too. Against Danzou, he was sustaining Susano-o for most of it and used Amaterasu two times along with two Tsukiyomis. He had used his partial and incomplete Susano-o and Enton attacks in the Kage Summit before hand too.



> And it's not a good idea to deny the manga's word, Naruto looked into Sasuke's heart and realized that he and a full-powered Sasuke without blindness would be equals in power, but that he had the potential to become much stronger (EMS). I doubt Naruto would lie or make this up, he's a pretty honest and straight person and not an arrogant jackass like Sasuke often can be.



Yeah, I'm sure Naruto had a perfect gauge of Sasuke's power even though they hadn't met for 3 years and knows nothing about his abilities right now. Right?



> Kisame fearing Jiraiya does make him all the stronger. You really think someone like Kisame, who lives among Akatsuki S-Ranked Criminals, killed Water Daimyos,



Kisame _attempted_ to kill the Daimyo of the Land of Water.



> brawls with Bijuu and Jinchuriki alike,



He's only "beaten" one Jinchuriki so far.



> and is chased all around the Shinobi World as a wanted missing-nin, would fear Jiraiya for anything other than his power?
> [/qutoe]
> 
> I think your exaggerating a bit. He's spent most of the on panel time hiding with Akatsuki. Akatsuki was meant to be a secret organization until P2.
> ...


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## daschysta (May 13, 2010)

hell no it's not dbzesque are you joking? Characters from the saiyan saga on all had planet busting capabilities. Kakuzu's blasts dont even come close to the power of chautzu, or kid gohan.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 13, 2010)

I'm not saying it's on par with DBZ power.


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## Panos (May 13, 2010)

Madara rapes Nagato.

With a kunai. He disappears. Waits for 1 day. And then he re-appears killing Nagato while he is sleeping.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> Madara rapes Nagato.
> 
> With a kunai. He disappears. Waits for 1 day. And then he re-appears killing Nagato while he is sleeping.


Yeah, that'll show he's stronger. [/sarcasm]


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## Thunder (May 13, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> Madara rapes Nagato.
> 
> With a kunai. He disappears. Waits for 1 day. And then he re-appears killing Nagato while he is sleeping.



Nice fanfic.


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## Judecious (May 13, 2010)

Peaceful said:


> Madara rapes Nagato.
> 
> With a kunai. He disappears. Waits for 1 day. And then he re-appears killing Nagato while he is sleeping.



you are so right


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## Black☆Star (May 13, 2010)

In raw power Pain is miles above Madara. At best,with his phasing abilities he can force a tie with Pain.


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## Sadgoob (May 14, 2010)

No, at best he warps Nagato to live out the rest of his life in an isolated dimension, essentially killing him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

Selim said:


> No, at best he warps Nagato to live out the rest of his life in an isolated dimension, essentially killing him.


If he could do that, why didn't he do that to the Kages? Why did he need Sasuke to weaken the Kages, if he could, so he could hold one or two hostage? Not only that, you do know Nagato can reverse summon? Hence escaping the dimension?


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## Sadgoob (May 14, 2010)

Nagato cannot reverse summon himself. That's not how reverse summoning works. He cannot transmit chakra to another dimension either.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

Selim said:


> Nagato cannot reverse summon himself. That's not how reverse summoning works. He cannot transmit chakra to another dimension either.


Yes, he can. How do you think he gets around long distances in that walker? And prove that he can't transmit chakra to another dimension.

Still have to prove Madara can even do it anyway.


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## Sadgoob (May 14, 2010)

Madara has been shown to warp away people. Nagato hasn't shown to "reverse summon himself." Nagato hasn't shown to transmit chakra through dimensions. The burden of proof is obviously on you.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

Selim said:


> Madara has been shown to warp away people. Nagato hasn't shown to "reverse summon himself." Nagato hasn't shown to transmit chakra through dimensions. The burden of proof is obviously on you.


Yeah, which is why he warped the Kages-oh wait, he didn't. There has to be something that prevents him from warping strong people away, he needed Sasuke to weaken the Kages to hold them hostage, remember?


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## Sadgoob (May 14, 2010)

He didn't seem to need Sasuke much when he effortlessly saved him and then told the entire to room to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down lol.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 14, 2010)

Selim said:


> He didn't seem to need Sasuke much when he effortlessly saved him and then told the entire to room to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down lol.


Sasuke was knocked out and weakened. He couldn't take any of the Kages in.


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## Shinkurai (May 14, 2010)

While I didn't rank Madara in my list, as we have no real solid feats from him, I do believe that, according to hype and Shonen rules, prime Madara would be considerably stronger than even the Pain Rikudo.

First, we should note that Prime Madara had the Kyuubi as a personal summon (after all, if we include Toad summonings in Jiraiya's power, why shouldn't we include the Kyuubi as part of Prime Madara's  power?). That, alone, is frightening; Pain had trouble fending off KN8, and having to fight the strongest Bijuu in existence would be, to say the least, immensely difficult. The only way I can see him pulling off a feat such as that is if Gedo Mazo can rip out a Bijuu's soul, or if he can summon a Chibaku Tensei large enough to crush the Kyuubi. Even so, he would have to contend with a beast which can, if we are to go by hype, smash entire mountain ranges with brute force, and probably summon a Menacing Ball far larger than KN6's (which formed a blast seemingly as large as a village). 

But that wouldn't be it. Alongside the Kyuubi, Pain would have to fight Madara who, as he possesses the EMS, would have every Sharingan technique and existence and possibly upgraded versions of most. Therefore, he have:

-Kamui, or at least the Kamui-ish technique he used against Fu and Torune
-The ability to become absolutely invulnerable
-Teleportation vastly exceeding that of the Yondaime Hokage's
-Amaterasu, probably an Amaterasu more powerful than Sasuke's and Itachi's
-Susanoo (likely with several legendary items)
-Lots of Uchiha Katons
-Hax Sharingan Genjutsu, including Tsukuyomi stronger than even Itachi's

What we're talking about is a pretty beastly fellow, to say the least. I don't know about current Madara, but prime Madara is likely stronger than Pain.


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## Panos (May 14, 2010)

-snip-


Lord of Thunder said:


> Nice fanfic.


Nice argument doode.


naruto the best said:


> you are so right



The question isnt if i am right or not, because based on manga scans i am.

The question is who are you?


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## daschysta (May 14, 2010)

I think the correct argument would be that madara has to be "solid" to warp someone. Torune was able to tag madara, now imagine if madara was fighting someone of a much higher level, and therein lies the answer to why madara did not attempt to warp the kages.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 18, 2010)

Shinkurai said:


> While I didn't rank Madara in my list, as we have no real solid feats from him, I do believe that, according to hype and Shonen rules, prime Madara would be considerably stronger than even the Pain Rikudo.
> 
> First, we should note that Prime Madara had the Kyuubi as a personal summon (after all, if we include Toad summonings in Jiraiya's power, why shouldn't we include the Kyuubi as part of Prime Madara's  power?). That, alone, is frightening; Pain had trouble fending off KN8, and having to fight the strongest Bijuu in existence would be, to say the least, immensely difficult. The only way I can see him pulling off a feat such as that is if Gedo Mazo can rip out a Bijuu's soul, or if he can summon a Chibaku Tensei large enough to crush the Kyuubi. Even so, he would have to contend with a beast which can, if we are to go by hype, smash entire mountain ranges with brute force, and probably summon a Menacing Ball far larger than KN6's (which formed a blast seemingly as large as a village).
> 
> ...



Agreed all the way, it's ridiculous to even think Prime Madara is below Pain. Prime Madara would stomp Pain. Hell, even Minato thinks that the weaker one that he faced was potentially more of a danger than Pain was.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Agreed all the way, it's ridiculous to even think Prime Madara is below Pain. Prime Madara would stomp Pain. Hell, even Minato thinks that the weaker one that he faced was potentially more of a danger than Pain was.


Wind Master, Prime Madara couldn't even take on Konoha without the Kyubi. Not only that, Pain, at 100%, given how he _nearly sealed the KN8_ with a Chibaku Tensei while weakened greatly, what do you think a 100% Pain could do to it? 

Not only that, what can Prime Madara do besides use Kyubi? What powers and abilities does he have? And it still doesn't change the fact he has the inferior Dojutsu. 



> Main text
> 
> Page 1
> 
> ...



And how will Minato beat Pain when Jiraiya, who arguably gotten stronger since then and used Sage Mode, couldn't? Minato is again another unknown, and Fukasaku, who knew Minato, didn't think that he could beat Pain otherwise he would have mentioned him.


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## Judecious (May 18, 2010)

even madara called pain invincible


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Agreed all the way, it's ridiculous to even think Prime Madara is below Pain. Prime Madara would stomp Pain. Hell, even Minato thinks that the weaker one that he faced was potentially more of a danger than Pain was.



He didn't mention Madara's power as a reason. Minato knew Pain was a victim of the cycle of hatred. He knew Madara was the one manipulating him and would continue to do so.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 19, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> even madara called pain invincible



He was doing it to mock Pain for having trouble with Jiraiya.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Seemed more he was praising Jiraiya's skill than anything. Konan didn't snap after anything like "spare us your sarcasm" and she was always doing that to Madara.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> He was doing it to mock Pain for having trouble with Jiraiya.



But it also gives a an insight as to why Pain was chosen above the rest of the Akatsuki members to be the leader-- not that its to suggest Pain Rikudou>Madara, but it does suggest why Pain > rest of the Akatsuki and why he should be ranked above them.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

And if you look at it, Madara's using it to praise Jiraiya, not belittle Pain.

This is corroborated by what Fukasaku says: go against Pain without knowing everything, you will die.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2010)

1. The Sage of the Six Paths.
2. Nagato (completely healthy not hindered by using Pain).
3. Kabuto.
4. Sasuke.
5. Naruto.
6. Madara current (don't care what you say, the space-time jutsu puts him above his prime weakened or not).
7. Pain Rikudou.
8. Minato.
9. Itachi.
10. Jiraiya.
11. Orochimaru.
12. Danzou (when he said he couldn't catch up to Hiruzen, clearly its talking reputation, not power-wise-- he wasn't shown with his Shisui's Sharingan due to the brokenness).
13. Hiruzen.
14. Tobirama (dunno, he could possibly be higher due to having Edo Tensei).
15. Hashirama.
16. Madara Prime.
17. Hanzou.
18. Killer B (I'm starting to think he should be a little higher).
19. Raikage.
20. Kakashi.

NB: this is on the notion that Madara in his prime didn't have his space-time Ninjutsu.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

I'd put Hashirama at least quite a bit higher. Certainly moreso than Danzo, Orochimaru, etc.

Also, Pain Rikudou is really just a power of Nagato's. Rinnegan thing and all.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'd put Hashirama at least quite a bit higher. Certainly moreso than Danzo, Orochimaru, etc.



I would. But I wasn't counting Bijuu control.



> Also, Pain Rikudou is really just a power of Nagato's. Rinnegan thing and all.



But there are characters Nagato can take with his full power that Pain can't i.e. Naruto.

Though I'm guessing Sasuke is likely above Pain with the EMS and all-- but I'll judge that properly till we see him again.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

even on his own, Hashirama seems to have been a force to be reckoned with. Enough to battle Prime "The Kyuubi is my pet" Madara and deal with an EMS user on its own.

Also, I wouldn't say sasuke is above Pain with EMS. Not yet anyways. However, Pain certainly can take Naruto. When the fight started, Naruto had destroyed Asura already-before it had begun- and Deva was unusable. And that aside, well...When Deva was working again, it won. Naruto was soundly beaten until Hinata intervened


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## Namikaze Minato (May 19, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1. The Sage of the Six Paths.
> 2. Nagato (completely healthy not hindered by using Pain).
> 3. Kabuto.
> 4. Sasuke.
> ...



Dude stop , press the brakes , What ?! Hashirama is 15 and Minato is 8 , are you reading the same Manga Like me Or not?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> even on his own, Hashirama seems to have been a force to be reckoned with. Enough to battle Prime "The Kyuubi is my pet" Madara and deal with an EMS user on its own.



Yes. But stronger people have been introduced since then. 



> Also, I wouldn't say sasuke is above Pain with EMS. Not yet anyways. However, Pain certainly can take Naruto. When the fight started, Naruto had destroyed Asura already-before it had begun- and Deva was unusable. And that aside, well...When Deva was working again, it won. Naruto was soundly beaten until Hinata intervened



Sasuke was said to have the potential to surpass Nagato-- he's at the best he can possibly be it seems.
I doubt Naruto in SM without a limit on his clones can lose to Pain.



Reypuu said:


> Dude stop , press the brakes , What ?! Hashirama is 15 and Minato is 8 , are you reading the same Manga Like me Or not?



You're assuming I included Biju control? Also reading the same manga hardly has anything to do with it-- seeing as from what I've seen there are posters who think outrageous things such as Itachi outrunning C4.


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes. But stronger people have been introduced since then.


Such as? Hashirama in the flesh has never been shown on screen



> Sasuke was said to have the potential to surpass Nagato-- he's at the best he can possibly be it seems.
> I doubt Naruto in SM without a limit on his clones can lose to Pain.


Imagine Pain not having to hold back, Naruto with no knowledge or allies to help and Pain without his top two bodies unusable when the fight started.

and Madara said he'd have to try to guide Sasuke to become stronger than Nagato. He also said that was not plan A and he also wants the Rinnegan and Sasuke with Gedo Mazo....that doesn't imply natural potential


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## ? (May 19, 2010)

current sasuke would get one shotted by iruka. he isn't stronger than anyone, let alone pain while he's all bandaged up and damaged from his fights.

as madara has said he needs to train his EMS, just as he did MS. then we can talk about him being stronger than nagato.


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## Angoobo (May 19, 2010)

Minato, Hashirama, Nagato should be on the top three.
Itachi should be ranked around 11, right below the likes of Jiraiya.
Tobirama is very underrated.

Use this and you'll come up with most accurate list of all.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Such as?



My list gives you my opinion.



> Imagine Pain not having to hold back, Naruto with no knowledge or allies to help and Pain without his top two bodies unusable when the fight started.



Imagine Naruto with SM not having a limit to how many clones he can use.



> and Madara said he'd have to try to guide Sasuke to become stronger than Nagato. He also said that was not plan A and he also wants the Rinnegan and Sasuke with Gedo Mazo....that doesn't imply natural potential



That implies Sasuke will eventually be stronger than Nagato-- arguably it could be now seeing as he's got the last possible power up he can it, it seems.



Inu said:


> current sasuke would get one shotted by iruka. he isn't stronger than anyone, let alone pain while he's all bandaged up and damaged from his fights.



I didn't mean Sasuke as he is now literally...



> as madara has said he needs to train his EMS, just as he did MS. then we can talk about him being stronger than nagato.



When has Madara said this?


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## ? (May 19, 2010)

he told sasuke he needs to get use to EMS the same chapter sasuke transplants the sharingan. implying he needs to train with it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2010)

1. Nagato/Pain
2. Hashirama
3. Madara
4. Minato
5. Jiraiya
6. Killer Bee/A
7. Naruto/Sasuke
8. Itachi/Deidara
9. Orochimaru
10. Tsunade/Gaara
11. Terumi Mei/Konan
12. Kisame
13. Kakuzu
14. Sasori
15. Chiyo
16. Kakashi
17. Onoki
18. Hiruzen
19. Gai
20. Shikamaru/Neji

Just for fun, Part 1 scale:
1. Jiraiya/Itachi
2. Orochimaru
3. Tsunade
4. Kakashi
5. Gai
6. Kimimaro
7. Asuma
8. Gaara
9. Kurenai
10. Naruto/Sasuke


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 19, 2010)

Inu said:


> he told sasuke he needs to get use to EMS the same chapter sasuke transplants the sharingan. implying he needs to train with it.



Never mentioned training. 
As you saw with the Mangekyou-- Sasuke can grasp the concept of how to use his new ocular powers pretty quickly.


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## daschysta (May 19, 2010)

When has sasuke ever had to train for anything, EMS will be just another instant powerup. It is naruto and sasuke's dynamic, sasuke is able to instantly grasp everything due to his genius while naruto has to work. It is kishi grasping at straws trying to keep a pt. 1 ideal of hardwork over genius alive, though it looks silly since he branded naruto the "child of destiny".


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## Lord Potato (May 19, 2010)

Hashirama is so overrated here.

When Orochimaru summoned him, he wasn't all that great. And i remember in an interview Kishi said that Hiruzen and Minato are the strongest ones (dead, includes Hashirama), yet people put him so high.


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 19, 2010)

Karl said:


> And i remember in an interview Kishi said that Hiruzen and Minato are the strongest ones (dead, includes Hashirama), yet people put him so high.



That was fake interview.


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## Lord Potato (May 19, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> That was fake interview.



How do you know that?


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## sasuke uciha boy (May 19, 2010)

Here:


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## Lightysnake (May 19, 2010)

Karl said:


> Hashirama is so overrated here.
> 
> When Orochimaru summoned him, he wasn't all that great. And i remember in an interview Kishi said that Hiruzen and Minato are the strongest ones (dead, includes Hashirama), yet people put him so high.



A mindless zombie not being that great isn't a good indicator of Hashi's power


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## Joakim3 (May 20, 2010)

Here is my take on it.......

1. Rikudou sennin
2. Pain
3. Hiruzen
4. Hashirama
5. Madara
6. Hanzo
7. Jiraiya
8. Minato
9. Itachi
10. Naruto
11. Sasuke
12. Sasori
13. Orochimaru
14. Kisame
15. Killer Bee
16. Kakuzu
17. Kakashi
18. Deidara
19. Gaara
20. Tsunade


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## Itachi Solos (May 25, 2010)

my list :
1.rikudo sennin
2.sandaime
3.yondaime
4.shodaime
5.madara
6.pain
7.itachi
8.kabuto
9.sasuke
10.jiraya
11.kisame
12.raikage
13.killerbee
14.naruto
15.danzou
16.orochimaru
17.tobirama
18.hanzou
19.kakuzu
20.sasori


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## Atlantic Storm (May 25, 2010)

Why are Hizuren and Minato up so high? I mean sure, they have a lot of hype and stuff. But Madara and Shodai have more, they stood at the top of the Ninja world during a time of constant _War_ and when clans like Senju and Uchiha still existed. I'm aware the two are extremely powerful, but I believe that Prime Madara and Shodai are stronger.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

Minato is the hero's father and unlike the others, didn't have an awesome bloodline to give him power.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 25, 2010)

Being the father of the main character doesn't mean your automatically the strongest. Sasuke's father was killed off pretty easily. 

And not having a bloodline to give him power just means he's more gifted or hard working, not more powerful.


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## Lightysnake (May 25, 2010)

The father of the title character to boot? The only Shonen I know of where the father or parental figure of the hero isn't primed as godly is Dragonball

Plus, the whole "Next gen surpasses the previous thing" is kind of hindered with Hashirama and Prime Madara being untouchable titans


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## Judecious (May 25, 2010)

kakashi did say naruto is the only 1 that could surpass minato so maybe kishi was hintingg at something


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> kakashi did say naruto is the only 1 that could surpass minato so maybe kishi was hintingg at something



Yeah, Kishimoto was definitely hinting at something through Kakashi. And even when making that statement, Kakashi had no idea that Minato managed to fight against not only the Kyubi no Yoko but also Madara at the same time as well, who is probably much stronger than Pain.

Tier 1: 
Senju Hashirama
Uchiha Madara (Prime)

Tier 2:
Yakushi Kabuto
Uchiha Madara (Current)

Tier 3:
Killer Bee
Kyubi Naruto

Tier 4:
Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke
Rikudou Pain
Namikaze Minato
4th Raikage
Uchiha Itachi (Prime)

Tier 5:
Hatake Kakashi
Shimura Danzo
Jiraiya/Orochimaru
Salamander Hanzo
Hoshigaki Kisame

Tier 6:
Sarutobi Hiruzen (Prime)
Senju Tobirama
2nd Raikage
Tsunade/Terumi Mei
Sabaku no Gaara
Akasuna no Sasori
Sandaime Kazekage

Tier 7:
Sarutobi Hiruzen (Old)
4th Mizukage

Tier 5:
Onoki
Konan
Kakuzu
Deidara

Tier 6:
Maito Gai
Chiyo
Haruno Sakura
Hidan


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

WM, if I may comment, I do think you set Bee a mite high. I mean, above Pain and Minato? Current Madara, too. He's rather weak in offense 

Not sure Kisame should be above so many people, too...and Deidara and Kakuzu below Tsunade, Mei and Kisame?


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## Judecious (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Yeah, Kishimoto was definitely hinting at something through Kakashi. And even when making that statement, Kakashi had no idea that Minato managed to fight against not only the Kyubi no Yoko but also Madara at the same time as well, who is probably much stronger than Pain.
> 
> Tier 1:
> Senju Hashirama
> ...



great list but itachi may be high and bee and raikage should be below naruto and sasuke

where is jiraiya


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> great list but itachi may be high and bee and raikage should be below naruto and sasuke
> 
> where is jiraiya



I believe Sasuke has surpassed Itachi, as Madara did believe he would eventually come to do so even without receiving the EMS, once he gained full mastery of his MS, that is. Also he equalled Naruto who is obviously stronger than Itachi.

Even so, I placed Itachi in the same tier as them as even his lowest level of power was enough to utterly destroy a Legendary Sannin in his strongest state, the terrifying power of Susano'o and its nigh unbeatable defensive properties and hax offense, and the level of praise he got from Madara, of course. And yet he was not even close to his true strength. 

This is confirmed further when we see that Itachi, just moments before his death and seriously blinding, managed to take out Orochimaru and could have likely beaten Sasuke as well. Sasuke while also blinding but nowhere as drained was nearly taken out by Sakura if not for PIS and PNJ on Sakura's part. 

Obviously this should mean he would be weaker than Itachi, but Madara's words suggest otherwise, and the fact that the younger generation should always surpass the older, and he is still SM Naruto's equal after all, so in the end, it comes out as Sasuke being above Itachi but certainly not an entire tier, that's not gonna happen until he learns how to use his EMS. 

I ranked Jiraiya equally with Orochimaru in Tier 5, and as second-highest in their tier right after Kakashi.

Also, any thoughts on how I ranked Pain and the Hokages?


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Personally, I'd knock Pain and Danzo up a tier or two...Minato as well


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## Butt Hole lol (May 26, 2010)

Tier 0
1.Madara (hype)
2.Hashirama (hype)


Tier 1
3.Current Kabuto
4.Nagato
5.Current Madara


Tier 2
6.Sasuke
7.Itachi
8.Naruto
9.Minato
10.Killer Bee
11.Orochimaru
12.HM Jiraiya


Tier 3
13.Kisame with samehada
14.Gaara in a Desert
15.Danzo
16.Current Raikage
17.Kakashi
18.Deidara
19.Kakazu
20.Sasori


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## Atlantic Storm (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> The father of the title character to boot? The only Shonen I know of where the father or parental figure of the hero isn't primed as godly is Dragonball
> 
> Plus, the whole "Next gen surpasses the previous thing" is kind of hindered with Hashirama and Prime Madara being untouchable titans



The "next generation surpasses the previous generation" thing doesn't apply to everyone. Prime Madara and Hashirama are exceptions, they are immensely powerful and will probably only be surpassed by a handful of people(namely Sasuke and Naruto). People like Moegi and Udon aren't going to surpass people like the Sannins or any of the previous Hokages either.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

I'd say it at least applies to the whole kage thing. Hiruzen was stated to have surpassed the other two and was said to be the strongest of the Hokages...Minato has been put on a crazy pedestal to boot 

And I want to know how Gaara is being ranked above Deidara. Or Mei and Onoki for that matter


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## Judecious (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> I believe Sasuke has surpassed Itachi, as Madara did believe he would eventually come to do so even without receiving the EMS, once he gained full mastery of his MS, that is. Also he equalled Naruto who is obviously stronger than Itachi.
> 
> Even so, I placed Itachi in the same tier as them as even his lowest level of power was enough to utterly destroy a Legendary Sannin in his strongest state, the terrifying power of Susano'o and its nigh unbeatable defensive properties and hax offense, and the level of praise he got from Madara, of course. And yet he was not even close to his true strength.
> 
> ...



that explains thing but orochimaru and jiraiya are superior to kakashi. just to point out itachi destroyed orochimaru because he was being to cocky and didnt expect itachi to have the sword.

i agree with putting madara and shodai in tier 1 but i believe minato and pain should be in tier 2 or 3 at the least

prime hiruzen had lots of hype so i would say tier 4. are you counting tobirama with edo tensei?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I'd say it at least applies to the whole kage thing. Hiruzen was stated to have surpassed the other two and was said to be the strongest of the Hokages...Minato has been put on a crazy pedestal to boot
> 
> And I want to know how Gaara is being ranked above Deidara. Or Mei and Onoki for that matter



Because Gaara is stronger than them. Mei and Onoki have no feats whatsoever, I have no idea why they're even on the list. Mei's Yonton attack is easy to avoid and Futton can be blown away by any decent Fuuton or you can just kill her before she gets the chance to use it. Onoki has three jutsu, one which makes a giant powerful cube which flies in one direction, meaning it's easy to avoid, another is levitation and the other is turning whoever he touches into stone. Unfortunately, the fact he has poor mobility means that jutsu is very hard to pull off. Deidara is certainly strong, but C1s and C2s can be blocked by Gaara's sand(which was fast and strong enough to intercept Raikage's kick) and while Deidara has a limited amount of clay, Gaara can constantly grind more.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

_Tier 1: 
Senju Hashirama
Uchiha Madara (Prime)

Tier 2:
Yakushi Kabuto
Rikudou Pain
Namikaze Minato

Tier 3:
Killer Bee
Jiraiya
Uchiha Itachi
Orochimaru
Shimura Danzo

Tier 4:
Hoshigaki Kisame
Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke
Akasuna no Sasori
Deidara
4th Raikage (Until Further Feats)
Hatake Kakashi/Tsunade

Tier 5:
Sabaku no Gaara
Kakuzu_


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> _Tier 1:
> Senju Hashirama
> Uchiha Madara (Prime)
> 
> ...



Good list. I would put Naruto and Sasuke above Kisame though.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

They are close in power, with SM and MS, but once Kyuubi and EMS come out I am positive they will be past him and everybody in the next tier.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

I'd definitely say good list. I'd just bump Deidara up a bit. He and Sasori are really on par with Kisame. Deidara's got a nice advantage over the shark man usually.

I might put Danzo a bit higher too. Guy was broken even when gimped


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

I would like to know why people are seriously considering Minato being stronger than Naruto even when it was stated otherwise, and at the same time ranking Prime Hiruzen even above monsters like Pain.

I wouldn't bounce Pain a tier up, I believe a Naruto who isn't single-mindedly intent on getting his revenge would be much more ready and poised to accept help more readily from his Toad Summons, and that extra prep time did Naruto more harm than good. TKB was one of his best attacks and would have been a menace to Pain if used in SM then, yet it was basically removed for nearly the entirety of the battle. 

Pain might still be stronger than Naruto, but I seriously doubt it's by an entire tier. It really makes no sense for him to be much stronger than Naruto when Jiraiya was stated to have been capable of defeating Nagato, and Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya in the eyes of Fukasaku. Plus, the reason why Pain was so weakened was because of his own folly, he knew that Naruto was coming with some mastery at least of Senjutsu thanks to reading Shizune's mind before killing her, and still nuking Konoha with CST, weakening Yahiko Realm, and then trying to kill a weakened Tsunade when SM Naruto was already on the scene and immediately losing his best body to him (Asura).

I know people will say Yahiko Realm was the strongest, but logically speaking, Yahiko Realm isn't quite so impressive when sharing chakra with the other five, his attacks are much weaker and toned down. He failed to kill Kakashi with Shinra Tensei multiple times and if not for Asura Realm, he would have been beaten soundly enough by Kakashi. Who is much weaker than Sennin Naruto at this point. And Asura and Animal have much more brute force and better defensive techniques, as well as no real weaknesses, unlike Yahiko Realm.

Ask Konan. She said that Yahiko Realm gaining 100% of Nagato's chakra would be more effective, albeit more risky than the 6 Paths as a whole. The Yahiko Realm Naruto fought later on was actually much stronger than normal as he had more chakra output from Nagato, and was actually powered up. 

Sanbi, why are Kabuto and Pain on the same tier? The mere fact that Kabuto has more than probably surpassed Orochimaru in power, combined with the fact that he can summon Nagato, Itachi, Deidara, Sasori and Kakuzu via Edo Tensei, and even more, plus one body which threatens even the invincible immortal Madara, is enough to put him above. Also because villains get stronger as the plot proceeds.

I don't agree with Jiraiya, Itachi, Danzo and Orochimaru being a tier above Naruto and Sasuke. Not in the least.  Itachi, Naruto and Sasuke are all around the same level with probably Naruto and Sasuke equal and stronger, and Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Danzo are obviously weaker. I also wonder how you can put Sasori and Tsunade in the same tier as Sennin Naruto and MS Sasuke too.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Deidara is really powerful, I just don't know about him. He hasn't really had an all out fight. Danzo is real strong, but with no realt judge of Shuishi's Genjutsu I don't know how to place him, but that whole tier are close in power. It would be easily interchangeable.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Deidara is really powerful, I just don't know about him. He hasn't really had an all out fight. Danzo is real strong, but with no realt judge of Shuishi's Genjutsu I don't know how to place him, but that whole tier are close in power. It would be easily interchangeable.



In the case of an all-out fight, don't you remember Deidara versus Hebi Sasuke?

Also consider that Deidara was fully intent upon killing Sasuke, while Sasuke intended to spare him alive and conscious to get information about Itachi.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

That wasn't a _real_ all out battle since Deidara was going crazy over the Sharingan, he didn't use C3, and Hebi Sasuke neutralizing most of his explosives made him seem worse. If he went against someone without Raiton, which is most ninja we know, was calm, and used all of his powers, he would be a lot stronger.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> That wasn't a _real_ all out battle since Deidara was going crazy over the Sharingan, he didn't use C3, and Hebi Sasuke neutralizing most of his explosives made him seem worse. If he went against someone without Raiton, which is most ninja we know, was calm, and used all of his powers, he would be a lot stronger.



Not really, Deidara actually took the best course of action each time against Sasuke. Sasuke was neutralizing many of his explosives with Raiton Ninjutsu, but that doesn't stop the battle between them from being a real one. 

C3 would have been pointless - Sasuke could have easily nullified that with a Raiton Sword, or dodged that by taking off into the air. 

And although a Raiton user, Sasuke's attacks were limited to short-range. Also, lack of killing intent hurt him too. Sasuke actually had two disadvantages to Deidara's one.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Not really, Deidara actually took the best course of action each time against Sasuke. Sasuke was neutralizing many of his explosives with Raiton Ninjutsu, but that doesn't stop the battle between them from being a real one.
> 
> C3 would have been pointless - Sasuke could have easily nullified that with a Raiton Sword, or dodged that by taking off into the air.
> 
> And although a Raiton user, Sasuke's attacks were limited to short-range. Also, lack of killing intent hurt him too. Sasuke actually had two disadvantages to Deidara's one.



Wouldn't you agree Deidara would be much stronger against anybody else thanks to being calm, willing to use C3, and not having Raiton counter most of his attacks?

How is having Raiton being at a disadvantage? Short range or not it stopped most of his explosions. Deidara was crazy, had a raiton user facing him, and wasn't going all out with C3, which with no knowledge of his Doton affinity at the time, would have be fatal.



> Sanbi, why are Kabuto and Pain on the same tier?


Because his Edo Tensei are likely not as strong as the real deal and without key things, Kabuto doesn't deserve his own tier and he isn't on the same level as Hashirama and Madara.



> The mere fact that Kabuto has more than probably surpassed Orochimaru in power,


Unrestricted Base Oro vs Base Current Kabuto? Oro would win, he is IMO the better ninja without Edo Tensei.



> combined with the fact that he can summon Nagato, Itachi, Deidara, Sasori and Kakuzu via Edo Tensei,


A Nagato without Pain, Sasori without puppets, Deidara without clay and Kakuzu without his masks aren't that strong. They are real strong regardless.



> and even more,





> plus one body which threatens even the invincible immortal Madara, is enough to put him above.


We don't know why it makes Madara pair up with Kabuto. It could just be a great secret he doesn't want anybody else to see.



> Also because villains get stronger as the plot proceeds.


Orochimaru was stronger then Hidan.



> I don't agree with Jiraiya, Itachi, Danzo and Orochimaru being a tier above Naruto and Sasuke.


Edo Orochimaru, Hermit Jiraiya, MS Itachi and Shuishi Danzo are stronger with these respective forms IMO. That is why it is my list and not yours.



> Itachi, Naruto and Sasuke are all around the same level with probably Naruto and Sasuke equal and stronger,


SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are not stronger then Itachi, with their new powerups they will be, but without them they aren't.



> and Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Danzo are obviously weaker.


Danzo would have beat Sasuke if he has Shuishi's Genjutsu available to him, and if Sasuke has no help via Karin or Madara. Orochimaru with Edo Tensei, and with CIS off would beat Sasuke's MS and other techs and Naruto. Jiraiya is still stronger with better usage of summons, more diverse, useful and powerful ninjutsu, better CQC due to pretty equal speed and strength, but with better taijutsu skill and two Kawazu Kumite usres on his shoulders as well as better intelligence.



> I also wonder how you can put Sasori and Tsunade in the same tier as Sennin Naruto and MS Sasuke too.


Sasori is really strong just underestimated due to having the worse match-up possible. But you make a good point, I just don't think they are Tier 3 material.


----------



## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> They are close in power, with SM and MS, but once Kyuubi and EMS come out I am positive they will be past him and everybody in the next tier.



I see, I thought you included EMS and Kyuubi.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

If I included those two things, they would be higher then even Pain most likely.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Wouldn't you agree Deidara would be much stronger against anybody else thanks to being calm, willing to use C3, and not having Raiton counter most of his attacks?
> 
> How is having Raiton being at a disadvantage? Short range or not it stopped most of his explosions. Deidara was crazy, had a raiton user facing him, and wasn't going all out with C3, which with no knowledge of his Doton affinity at the time, would have be fatal.
> 
> ...



Did I say having Raiton was a disadvantage for Sasuke? I said that it was the short range of Sasuke's techniques which was a disadvantage for him. 

Edo Tensei are just as powerful as the real things. Nothing has implied otherwise. Itachi is still completely unaffected and is in perfect condition after Edo Tensei. Getting clay for Deidara, hearts for Kakuzu and puppets for Sasori is nothing hard. Same with making new Realms for Nagato. 

It makes no sense for Kabuto to surpass Orochimaru in simply Edo Tensei. Just my opinion, though, but that's how it floats in most shonen. And Hidan might have come later into the story than Oro, but he's nowhere as important to the plot as Oro, Pain, Kabuto or Madara. He doesn't count. I was referring to main antagonists.

Danzo would have beat Sasuke, but this was before Sasuke gained a final layer of armor over Susano'o. I agree, this is all very much your own opinion, but you must consider this about Danzo and Sasuke at least.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> If I included those two things, they would be higher then even Pain most likely.



Agreed, good possibility.


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## Smiley (May 26, 2010)

Tier 0

Rikudou Sennin

Tier 1

Madara
Hashirama
Nagato (100% Chakra)
Kyuubi Trained Naruto (Though At The End Of The Series He'd Be The Strongest)
EMS Sasuke (Same As Naruto)

Tier 2

Pain (Fractions Of Nagato's Chakra Into Seperate Bodies)
Minato
Hiruzen (Hype)

Tier 3

Kisame (Though I Think He Might Squeeze In Tier 2)
KillerB
Raikage
Itachi
Danzo
Orochimaru
Jiraiya

Tier 4

Gaara
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Kakashi


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> I would like to know why people are seriously considering Minato being stronger than Naruto even when it was stated otherwise, and at the same time ranking Prime Hiruzen even above monsters like Pain.



Well, likely because this IS Minato we're talking about. He's got insane hype. Madara and the Kyuubi together couldn't kill him and he had no special Bijuu handling bloodline



> I wouldn't bounce Pain a tier up, I believe a Naruto who isn't single-mindedly intent on getting his revenge would be much more ready and poised to accept help more readily from his Toad Summons, and that extra prep time did Naruto more harm than good. TKB was one of his best attacks and would have been a menace to Pain if used in SM then, yet it was basically removed for nearly the entirety of the battle.


And if Pain was fresh? We've seen God Realm can handle TKB. What if he had Asura, which took out Jiraiya's arm in CQC?



> Pain might still be stronger than Naruto, but I seriously doubt it's by an entire tier. It really makes no sense for him to be much stronger than Naruto when Jiraiya was stated to have been capable of defeating Nagato, and Naruto had surpassed Jiraiya in the eyes of Fukasaku. Plus, the reason why Pain was so weakened was because of his own folly, he knew that Naruto was coming with some mastery at least of Senjutsu thanks to reading Shizune's mind before killing her, and still nuking Konoha with CST, weakening Yahiko Realm, and then trying to kill a weakened Tsunade when SM Naruto was already on the scene and immediately losing his best body to him (Asura).



He did not know Naruto was on his way back. He jsut knew Naruto was at Mt. Myobokuzan training in Senjutus...he couldn't possibly know Naruto had mastered Sennin Mode that fast.
Plus, he didn't know Naruto was there. He just saw the toads in the distance. He was surprised to even see Naruto there.



> I know people will say Yahiko Realm was the strongest, but logically speaking, Yahiko Realm isn't quite so impressive when sharing chakra with the other five, his attacks are much weaker and toned down. He failed to kill Kakashi with Shinra Tensei multiple times and if not for Asura Realm, he would have been beaten soundly enough by Kakashi. Who is much weaker than Sennin Naruto at this point. And Asura and Animal have much more brute force and better defensive techniques, as well as no real weaknesses, unlike Yahiko Realm.


He killed or incapacitated Choza and the others with ST. We've seen Kakashi kicked into a tree so hard it broke by Kakuzu. The man is durable. 
 Pain can use more power in ST besides. Asura entered when the fight hadn't even really begun.
If Nagato wants, it can throw out a ST on its own that'll turn your bones to powder.
Keep in mind that Naruto didn't really have to fight Asura either. He destroyed it before the fight begun in proper



> Ask Konan. She said that Yahiko Realm gaining 100% of Nagato's chakra would be more effective, albeit more risky than the 6 Paths as a whole. The Yahiko Realm Naruto fought later on was actually much stronger than normal as he had more chakra output from Nagato, and was actually powered up.


The problem is, Nagato's chakra was kind of...off.
But let's not forget: Deva Realm WON. If not for Hinata, what would've happened?



> Sanbi, why are Kabuto and Pain on the same tier? The mere fact that Kabuto has more than probably surpassed Orochimaru in power, combined with the fact that he can summon Nagato, Itachi, Deidara, Sasori and Kakuzu via Edo Tensei, and even more, plus one body which threatens even the invincible immortal Madara, is enough to put him above. Also because villains get stronger as the plot proceeds.


I'll agree Kabuto's likely the strongest villain thus far. But can the old adage of ":Villains need to ge stronger" please end? This isn't Dragonball. Ssori was more dangerous than some villains who succeeded him. Orochimaru, too. 
Fist of the North Start, Rurouni Kenshin, One Piece at times....among others? Villains do not always get stronger.

We also have to wait and see what Kabuto's ET can do. It's unknown if he can have Nagato make more Realms



> I don't agree with Jiraiya, Itachi, Danzo and Orochimaru being a tier above Naruto and Sasuke. Not in the least.  Itachi, Naruto and Sasuke are all around the same level with probably Naruto and Sasuke equal and stronger, and Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Danzo are obviously weaker. I also wonder how you can put Sasori and Tsunade in the same tier as Sennin Naruto and MS Sasuke too.


WM, I think you're selling Danzo a bit short. He was winning against Sasuke. He WOULD have won if Karin wasn't there. And how about his eye?




Wind Master said:


> Did I say having Raiton was a disadvantage for Sasuke? I said that it was the short range of Sasuke's techniques which was a disadvantage for him.


Taking advantage of your opponent's weakness isn't a bad thing.
And Deidara's grudge against the Sharingan hurt him a lot. It made him play around and sandbag it instead of go serious. Plus, Hebi Sasuke was "Discount Deidara Counter" with his abilities together. Remove raiton or flight, or the CS or the Sharingan, he'd have died easy. 
With C4, Deidara'd be an easy match for Orochimaru or even Itachi. He's certainly able to take Kisame. He and Sasori are still beasts who do belong on a nicer upper tier together given their power's relative to one another. Certainly above most of the current Kages



> Edo Tensei are just as powerful as the real things. Nothing has implied otherwise. Itachi is still completely unaffected and is in perfect condition after Edo Tensei. Getting clay for Deidara, hearts for Kakuzu and puppets for Sasori is nothing hard. Same with making new Realms for Nagato.


That depends on what it entails...the zombies are mindless.
Deidara might be able to make the clay, but Kakuzu and Sasori are a little...more difficult. Sasori can't just grab any old jo and make a puppet. there's quality involved, he'd say. 



> It makes no sense for Kabuto to surpass Orochimaru in simply Edo Tensei. Just my opinion, though, but that's how it floats in most shonen. And Hidan might have come later into the story than Oro, but he's nowhere as important to the plot as Oro, Pain, Kabuto or Madara. He doesn't count. I was referring to main antagonists.
> 
> Danzo would have beat Sasuke, but this was before Sasuke gained a final layer of armor over Susano'o. I agree, this is all very much your own opinion, but you must consider this about Danzo and Sasuke at least.



Danzo vs. Sasuke had some issues:
Karin was saving Sasuke's sorry rear end a lot in that fight. Danzo was gimped without his Sharingan eye and at the end, JUST before Danzo's eye woke back up, Karin healed Sasuke who was in the same poor state as Danzo. Imagine if he got the eye back before that and Karin wasn't there.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Did I say having Raiton was a disadvantage for Sasuke? I said that it was the short range of Sasuke's techniques which was a disadvantage for him.


He still has Raiton, though so I don't get how that would really be a disadvantage. 



> Edo Tensei are just as powerful as the real things. Nothing has implied otherwise.


Except the same person who kept up with Prime EMS Madara was getting out maneuvered and beaten by an Old Sarutobi.

If you think that was Hashirama at his best, I wonder how you can put him that high. 



> Itachi is still completely unaffected and is in perfect condition after Edo Tensei.


Never said he wasn't, besides the obvious Edo Tensei drawbacks.



> Getting clay for Deidara, hearts for Kakuzu and puppets for Sasori is nothing hard. Same with making new Realms for Nagato.


Yet Kabuto hasn't done that yet, and we don't know if he will. The hearts and Puppets especially won't be the same.



> It makes no sense for Kabuto to surpass Orochimaru in simply Edo Tensei. Just my opinion, though, but that's how it floats in most shonen.


He has no feats that suggest that he surpassed Oro in base. He only integrated part of Oro and that doesn't give him a Futon, snake summons, Oro's regeneration, his stamina, or Yamata.



> And Hidan might have come later into the story than Oro, but he's nowhere as important to the plot as Oro, Pain, Kabuto or Madara. He doesn't count. I was referring to main antagonists.


Kabuto is stronger then Pain, he is just in the same tier. Unless you are suggesting Kabuto is stronger then Prime Madara and Hashirama.



> Danzo would have beat Sasuke, but this was before Sasuke gained a final layer of armor over Susano'o. I agree, this is all very much your own opinion, but you must consider this about Danzo and Sasuke at least.


That is true, but with no feats from that final layer I can't accurately judge that. Unless it gives you Yata and Itachi's Sword (Forgot the Name), I still don't see him stronger. Plus his Genjutsu is extremely hax.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Because Gaara is stronger than them. Mei and Onoki have no feats whatsoever, I have no idea why they're even on the list. Mei's Yonton attack is easy to avoid and Futton can be blown away by any decent Fuuton or you can just kill her before she gets the chance to use it. Onoki has three jutsu, one which makes a giant powerful cube which flies in one direction, meaning it's easy to avoid, another is levitation and the other is turning whoever he touches into stone. Unfortunately, the fact he has poor mobility means that jutsu is very hard to pull off. Deidara is certainly strong, but C1s and C2s can be blocked by Gaara's sand(which was fast and strong enough to intercept Raikage's kick) and while Deidara has a limited amount of clay, Gaara can constantly grind more.


Deidara's amount of sand has never made a difference when he's serious. He had a huge chunk left over against Sasuke after everything he made

Gaara is not on Deidara's level. With little clay, in the desert, Deidara beat him. And Deidara is the worst person to try to take someone alive. Consider that while Gaara can block C1 and C2, Deidara trying to kill him would use C4. Something Gaara has zero defense for. 

and Gaara's only 'unlimited' in the desert.




Sanbi said:


> They are close in power, with SM and MS, but once Kyuubi and EMS come out I am positive they will be past him and everybody in the next tier.


Sanbi, just on your earlier point: I'd put Deidara higher because he's definitely on level with and could take Kisame at least, given the fighting styles and elemental matchup. Plus his moves when he's fighting rationally are broken. C4 alone?


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## Judecious (May 26, 2010)

Tier 1:
Hashirama Senju 
Madara Uchiha(Prime)

Tier 2:
Nagato(prime)
Minato
Kabuto Yakushi 

Tier 3:
SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Killer Bee
Hiruzen Sarutobi (hype)

Tier 4:
Tobirama Senju(Edo Tensei)
Itachi(MS)
Jiraiya(SM)
Orochimaru
Izuna(MS)
Salamander Hanzo
Hatake Kakashi(MS)
Danzo Shimura 
Kisame Hoshigaki 
Raikage
Tsunade

Tier 5:
Mei Terumi
Deidara
Gaara
Hiruzen Sarutobi(Old)
Sasori
Kakuzu
Asuma
Gai Maito(Gates)

Tier 6:
Onoki
Konan
Chiyo
Hidan
Yamato
Zabuza

Tier 7:
Sakura
Neji
Sai
Shikamaru


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> He still has Raiton, though so I don't get how that would really be a disadvantage.
> 
> 
> Except the same person who kept up with Prime EMS Madara was getting out maneuvered and beaten by an Old Sarutobi.
> ...





1. When Hashirama fought Madara, he had his 8 Tailed Beasts with him.
2. Orochimaru stated the Edo Tensei were merely toying with Hiruzen. It also seemed as if he was controlling them like puppets, so their course of action depends on what their user wants them to do.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Yeah, its pretty safe to say Deidara>Gaara. Few people can defend against C4.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Deidara's amount of sand has never made a difference when he's serious. He had a huge chunk left over against Sasuke after everything he made
> 
> Gaara is not on Deidara's level. With little clay, in the desert, Deidara beat him. And Deidara is the worst person to try to take someone alive. Consider that while Gaara can block C1 and C2, Deidara trying to kill him would use C4. Something Gaara has zero defense for.



Deidara only beat him because Gaara was trying to protect the Village too.



> and Gaara's only 'unlimited' in the desert.



He can grind sand.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> 1. When Hashirama fought Madara, he had his 8 Tailed Beasts with him.


This is...unknown. Remember, WM, shortly after Konoha was founded, Hashirama had given away the other Bijuu he had as a sign of trust. We didn't see them at the Valley of the end shot, just Hashirama restraining the Kyuubi...plus, it's very probable Hashirama died from wounds sustained at the VoTE. Immediately after that? TOBIRAMA takes over and apparently distrusts the Uchiha.
This'd make the most sense if his beloved brother just died to the Uchiha. (Assuming tobirama distrusted them whatsoever), and Jiraiya reflects the past Hokages died incredibly heroic and worthy deaths...what else would cover that for Hashirama?



Atlantic Storm said:


> Deidara only beat him because Gaara was trying to protect the Village too.


Not at all. He could've used C3 on Gaara there. He just had to get Gaara to defend close to him. The plan had three stages:
A. Get him to defend the village to...
B. use the homing bird to...
C. get Gaara just to defend himself.

The C3 on the village is very incidental. Deidara would've won regardles from the point he put his clay in Gaara's sand



> He can grind sand.


Not nearly as much.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> Tier 1:
> Hashirama Senju
> Madara Uchiha(Prime)
> 
> ...



Are you serious? Asuma and Gai being on the same tier as the man known as the God of Shinobi? Asuma is only an Elite Jounin, you ranked him too high, even above Onoki, Chiyo and Hidan who are clearly a lot stronger. Gai's a beast, but nowhere as much as Sarutobi. 

Do people really think Sarutobi becomes 10x stronger in his prime or something? Otherwise, people should rank Old Sarutobi high enough to make being stronger than Pain a sensible choice, which is impossible as he lost to a gimped and holding back Orochimaru. Orochimaru with everything he had is vastly inferior to Pain. I doubt being in his prime would be enough to help him against the Hydra alone, forget Pain.

Or rank Prime Sarutobi lower. Which is the more logical choice.


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> This is...unknown. Remember, WM, shortly after Konoha was founded, Hashirama had given away the other Bijuu he had as a sign of trust. We didn't see them at the Valley of the end shot, just Hashirama restraining the Kyuubi...plus, it's very probable Hashirama died from wounds sustained at the VoTE. Immediately after that? TOBIRAMA takes over and apparently distrusts the Uchiha.
> This'd make the most sense if his beloved brother just died to the Uchiha. (Assuming tobirama distrusted them whatsoever), and Jiraiya reflects the past Hokages died incredibly heroic and worthy deaths...what else would cover that for Hashirama?



If Hashirama was so uber-level, he'd be called the strongest Hokage and not Hiruzen, and gain much more respect and praise from the modern ninja and Konoha citizen. 

Also, I fail to see how Hashirama could be stronger than Madara without Bijuu of his own. Mokuton would surpress Kyubi - not make him stronger than the Kyubi along with Madara. He wasn't just Madara's best possible counter, he was also stronger or at least his equal as he implied himself.


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## Judecious (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Are you serious? Asuma and Gai being on the same tier as the man known as the God of Shinobi? Asuma is only an Elite Jounin, you ranked him too high, even above Onoki, Chiyo and Hidan who are clearly a lot stronger. Gai's a beast, but nowhere as much as Sarutobi.
> 
> Do people really think Sarutobi becomes 10x stronger in his prime or something? Otherwise, people should rank Old Sarutobi high enough to make being stronger than Pain a sensible choice, which is impossible as he lost to a gimped and holding back Orochimaru. Orochimaru with everything he had is vastly inferior to Pain. I doubt being in his prime would be enough to help him against the Hydra alone, forget Pain.
> 
> Or rank Prime Sarutobi lower. Which is the more logical choice.



did you say orochimaru>pain?

in his old age he was able to fight ORO and edo tensei and he had a 5 in stats exepct for speed, stamina, and strength(because of old age)


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

I wouldn't say Hiruzen...lost. He won at cost of his life-and took moral victory at least, but only because of the Reaper Seal. In straight up combat?

Here's my list, btw...with Tiers:

Top Tier: Rikudou Sennin

Mythic Tier: Hashirama, Prime Madara, Minato Namikaze

Story's top tier: Kabuto, Pain/Nagato

And just below theirs: Naruto Uzumaki, Killer Bee (it was hard to decide to put him on this or the above), Danzo Shimura, Jiraiya, Sasuke Uchiha Itachi Uchiha, A the Raikage, 

Next: Orochimaru, Deidara, Sasori, Kisame Hoshigaki, Tsunade, Kakashi, Gaara

And next: Kakuzu, Gai, Chiyo, Hidan

I'm leaving off Mei, Onoki and current Madara as we know too little about them


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> If Hashirama was so uber-level, he'd be called the strongest Hokage and not Hiruzen, and gain much more respect and praise from the modern ninja and Konoha citizen.


Well, the man's an absolute legend. It was just 'said' Hashirama surpassed them, after all.  Also, nothing ever indicates Hashirama used the Bijuu in battle



> Also, I fail to see how Hashirama could be stronger than Madara without Bijuu of his own. Mokuton would surpress Kyubi - not make him stronger than the Kyubi along with Madara. He wasn't just Madara's best possible counter, he was also stronger or at least his equal as he implied himself.



It'd suppress and control the Kyuubi and take it out of the fight, though, leading to a more even mano a mano fight. Logically speaking, Hashirama has good counters to the EMS in Mokuton, obviously high level Doton and Suiton jutsu and let's not forget his bringer of Darkness Genjutsu which is crazy awesome.

We also know Minato himself fought Madara at the Kyuubi simultaneously. Hashirama being able to nullify the KYuubi as an advantage would be part of his power


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I wouldn't say Hiruzen...lost. He won at cost of his life-and took moral victory at least, but only because of the Reaper Seal. In straight up combat?
> 
> Here's my list, btw...with Tiers:
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with this, did you purposely leave out Hiruzen Light?


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Also yes. I'd put Old Hiruzen on more with the Jiraiya tier or the one below it


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> 1. When Hashirama fought Madara, he had his 8 Tailed Beasts with him.


I'd like some proof for any of their encounters. The only feasible one would be the VotE, which I agree he had them then. But if you think Hashirama had them against Madara , when Madara didn't have the Kyuubi, and he was still a match for Hashirama, then I don't know how to argue with you.



> 2. Orochimaru stated the Edo Tensei were merely toying with Hiruzen.


Except they didn't until they trapped him in genjutsu, before that with their Fuda implanted they were killing machines. I really don't think Hashirama and Tobirama couldn't react to Old Hiruzen planting the tags on them in their prime,



> It also seemed as if he was controlling them like puppets, so their course of action depends on what their user wants them to do.


Speculation. The DB mentions nothing about that, in fact it calls them a summon, which means they act on their own.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

How come the Sage makes the list on every one?

Thats without the 10 tails.

Like, for all we know he could have created like ONE jutsu then the furture generations expanded on it. For his jutsu could be pitiful compared to the current times, like his fire ball jutsu being like a seed in size.

He was the first to utalize ninjutsu. That doesnt say much, only on his intelligence, not power.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> How come the Sage makes the list on every one?
> 
> Thats without the 10 tails.
> 
> ...



We know he was powerful because we know he had all the powers Pain possessed. Pain even said his power pales in comparison, and we all know hoe powerful Pain was. Juubi or not, the Sage was powerful.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> We know he was powerful because we know he had all the powers Pain possessed. Pain even said his power pales in comparison, and we all know hoe powerful Pain was. Juubi or not, the Sage was powerful.



How so? Did the sage have the paths?

Also, did pain personally meet the sage and see his powers in action?


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## SanninModeXX79 (May 26, 2010)

*Strong People*

Don't have ten but i got five.

1, sage of the six path

2, the ten tailed dude

3, the first hokage, because he beat madara with Mangekyo Sharingan & the nine tailed (i don't see the fourth doing that.) that one badass dude!!

4, madara, faster then the fourth, have the mangekyo and has lots of info on the leaf people (really useful when fighting two of donzo's top black ops)

5, third hokage, beat a zombie first and second, then took out orochimaru's arms

i would have the fourth on the list but i really haven't seen him fight, the nine tailed i'm pretty sure the third would have seal him too, there is lot of characters in the naruto world.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Well he was called the Sage of Six Paths.....


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

That doesn't mean squat.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Whatever floats your boat I guess.......


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

The Sage created the Moon. he had all the Rinnegan powers to boot.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> How so? Did the sage have the paths?
> 
> Also, did pain personally meet the sage and see his powers in action?



All of the powers Pain had came from the Rinnegan. The Sage also had the Rinnegan, but is obviously stronger. Kishi made this clear.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Whatever floats your boat I guess.......



Funny, I am watching a Titanic video...

@Lighty- Yeah so? For all we know that could have put him in a coma liek Tsunade.

@L.o.T-  not all. His summonings?His paths? etc.


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## Judecious (May 26, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Funny, I am watching a Titanic video...
> 
> @Lighty- Yeah so? For all we know that could have put him in a coma liek Tsunade.
> 
> @L.o.T-  not all. His summonings?His paths? etc.



you do know that nagato is more powerful when he is 1 body right?


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Funny, I am watching a Titanic video...
> 
> @Lighty- Yeah so? For all we know that could have put him in a coma liek Tsunade.
> 
> @L.o.T-  not all. His summonings?His paths? etc.



He may not be able to summon the exact same summons as Nagato, but he can summon. As for the the Six Paths, the Sage has no need to use it. He has all of the Paths abilities in one body. 

The guy was called the God of Shinobi. You cant really dispute that


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Have you ever noticed how the Epithet of the shinobi tell there power? "Yellow Flash", "Copy Ninja", "Demon of the Mist", why should it be any different here Hiruzen? Kishi appoints those names for a reason. Unless you want to suggest the Sage of Six Paths points to something else?

Unless you honestly think his name was Rikudo Sennin.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Ironically considering your name, Hiruzen Sarutobi was also called the God of Shinobi, and we all know how powerful he was in his prime. Like Sanbi said, these titles mean something.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> He may not be able to summon the exact same summons as Nagato, but he can summon. As for the the Six Paths, the Sage has no need to use it. He has all of the Paths abilities in one body.
> 
> The guy was called the God of Shinobi. You cant really dispute that



We have no knowledge of his paths. 

Also, how can you be sure he can summon?

Also, Hiruzen was also called the God of Shinobi, therefore titles mean nothing.

he was called the god of shinobi because he was the FIRST shinobi.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Why is it so hard to think The Sage of Six Paths has Six Paths?


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Because it was NEVER shown.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

So what was shown of the Sage? Nothing. All we have is speculation, so why can't we make the obvious comparison that being called the Sage of Six Paths = Having Six Paths like Pain?


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Lol exactly my point. 

The Sage. We have no knowledge of him.

therefore, I don't think he should be on the top 20 list.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

We know that creating the moon, having the Rinnegan mastered, creating ninjutsu and being the Juubi's Jinchuuriki makes him > everyone else.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Just because we haven't seen him doesn't mean he isn't powerful. Have we seen Minato? Everyone is pretty sure about his abilities, this is no different.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Being a jinchuriki has no reflection on his power individual power.

Also, yes, mastering the rinnegan gave him acces to all elements. That could give him the abiltiy to master what like 3 jutsu?

Creating the moon that drained him of so much chakra he died... k.



But Minato has feats. He dominated an ENTIRE war. And he had so much hype from those who were alive WITH him. 

No one alive had met the sage.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Wrong, he was dieing from natural causes and created the moon on his death bed, which only furthers our case-he had incredible strength.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

More like he was dying and then separated the strongest being on the planet into 9 pieces and then created the moon on his deathbed. 

Mastering the Rinnegan gave him as many jutsu as Nagato has.

Well we still count that as his power.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

NOT TRUE! Him having the rinnegan doesn't mean he has EVERYTHING nagato has.

Even so... we have no knowledge, so he shouldn't even be on the list.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

We have no knowledge on Hashirama really, or Prime Madara, but common sense would dictate where they go, and the same applies here.

The Juubi Jinchuuriki, the Creator of Ninjutsu and the Moon, and master of the Rinnegan would naturally get the top spot.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

> But Minato has feats. He dominated an ENTIRE war. And he had so much hype from those who were alive WITH him.
> 
> No one alive had met the sage.



It doesn't matter if no one met him. The guy still has hype. Sealing the strongest evil force in the world, creating the moon, creating the basis of all jutsu, etc. I'm sure all these things look good on your ninja resume.


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Not true. We have no knowledge of his feats IN COMBAT. Therefore we cannot judge where this goes.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Not true. We have no knowledge of his feats IN COMBAT. Therefore we cannot judge where this goes.



So your saying someone who created the moon is a weakling in combat?


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

Can you explain how to use that in combat? All I am saying is that he hasn't shown any feats combat wise to make him top tier.


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## Thunder (May 26, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Can you explain how to use that in combat? All I am saying is that he hasn't shown any feats combat wise to make him top tier.



True we don't have actual feats, but we know he can use all of Pain's powers. ST, CT, chakra absorption, soul ripping, etc. And we know his version of them are more powerful.


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

So your saying people have to have feats to be strong? So even though he created ninjutsu, has the strongest sealing jutsu in the world, created and mastered tons of other jutsu, used a way better version of Chibaku Tensei, *had the power of the Juubi* and you say he doesn't have feats to put him up their. 

I would say if he has Chibaku Tensei he would have mastered at least Shinra Tensei and Bansho Tenin, along with other jutsu, prominently elemental jutsu.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

We know for a fact he was a fully mastered Jinchuuriki of a beast with all the power of the other 9 COMBINED with all the powers of the Rinnegan and mastery of every form of Ninjutsu


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## Big Mom (May 26, 2010)

I am talking without the jinchuriki powers.

Also, back then, there could have been very few ninjutsu.

aqlso, NOT all of pains moves. 

Also, what other jutsu did he master?


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## Sanbi (May 26, 2010)

Why aren't you counting it?

There had to be a ton of jutsu if Fuuinjutsu existed, Chibaku Tensei, there was bound to be other elemental jutsu.

Which ones wouldn't he have. All the ones associated with the Rinnegan he gets since he created them and mastered them.


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## Lightysnake (May 26, 2010)

Yes, all of Pain's powers. All his powers are Rinnegan powers


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## Aegon Targaryen (May 27, 2010)

At least the hype Rikudo gets is completely valid and can be taken seriously, as we know more or less what he could be capable of, and his role in the manga. Prime Hiruzen and even Minato and Hashirama have more unfounded hype than he does.


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## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

Minato fought the full on Kyuubi AND Madara simultaneously.

I'd say that's enough to qualify him as badass supreme


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## minuto (May 27, 2010)

Rikudou Sage
Hashirama
Madara
Minato
Sasuke
Pain/Nagato
Danzo
Itachi
Naruto
Orochimaro
Jiraiya
Kabuto
Raikage
Kisame
Bee
Hiruzen
Zabuza
Shikamaru
Gaara
Kakashi


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## Thunder (May 27, 2010)

Zabuza and Shika above Gaara? And Kakashi?


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## Respite (May 27, 2010)

minuto said:


> Rikudou Sage
> Hashirama
> Madara
> Minato
> ...



wow this list is bad.


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## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

Edited mine to place Hidan. Forgot about him


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (May 27, 2010)

Zabuza and Shikamaru, above Gaara and Kakashi? 

And Sasuke is above Nagato, yet Naruto isn't?


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## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

Hey, WM, thoughts on mine?


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## Butt Hole lol (May 27, 2010)

Tier 0
1.Hashirama prime (hype)
2.Madara prime (hype)


Tier 1
3.Current Kabuto
4.Nagato
5.Current Madara


Tier 2
6.Current Sasuke
7.Healthy Itachi
8.Current Naruto
9.Minato
10.Killer Bee
11.Orochimaru
12.HM Jiraiya


Tier 3
13.Kisame with samehada
14.Gaara in a Desert
15.Danzo
16.Current Raikage
17.Kakashi
18.Deidara
19.Kakazu
20.Sasori

I think my list is the best


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## Tobi Oochiha (May 27, 2010)

1. Tobi
2. Kabuto
3. Sasuke
4. Fujin and Rijin
5. Nagato
6. Deidara
7. Itachi
8. Kisame
9. Sasori
10. Orochimaru
11. Tsunade
12. Jiraiya
13. Naruto
14. Sakura
15. Sai
16. Yamato
17. Kakashi
18. Konan
19. Suigetsu
10. Jugo


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## TheGreen1 (May 27, 2010)

tobi365 said:


> 1. Tobi
> 2. Kabuto
> 3. Sasuke
> 4. Fujin and Rijin
> ...


I can understand why someone could argue Orochimaru being over Jiraiya... 
... but Tsunade? You gotta be shittin me.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 27, 2010)

Why are Sakura and Sai above Kakashi?
And who are Fujin and Rijin?


----------



## Thunder (May 27, 2010)

tobi365 said:


> 1. Tobi
> 2. Kabuto
> 3. Sasuke
> 4. Fujin and Rijin
> ...



Sai and Sakura are way too high. They don't really belong in a top 20 list to begin with.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 27, 2010)

And I can understand Tsunade being on the list, but she isn't above Jiraiya, Naruto or Kakashi(arguable since Tsunade vs Kakashi is still one of the more popular matches in the BD) in terms of strength(I'm not talking about physical strength) and skill.


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## Ejenku (May 27, 2010)

In part 2 at this point from feats and hype/abilities but just because someone is listed higher doesn't mean there is much of a gap or that they can beat someone ranked lower.

Nagato/Madara
Kabuto
Itachi/Jiraiya/Orochimaru
Sasuke/Naruto/Raikage/Killer Bee
Danzo
Sasori
Kisame
Kakashi
Kakuzu/Deidara
Hurizen
Tsunade
Zetsu
Konan
Gai
Hidan


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## Tobi Oochiha (May 27, 2010)

TheGreen1 said:


> I can understand why someone could argue Orochimaru being over Jiraiya...
> ... but Tsunade? You gotta be shittin me.





Atlantic Storm said:


> Why are Sakura and Sai above Kakashi?
> And who are Fujin and Rijin?





Lord of Thunder said:


> Sai and Sakura are way too high. They don't really belong in a top 20 list to begin with.



ok.. well to me these people are in the right order. i don't care what other people say.. I DON'T CARE!!.

watch the first part of naruto when mizuki comes back if you want to know who fugin and rijin are.


----------



## Respite (May 27, 2010)

tobi365 said:


> ok.. well to me these people are in the right order. i don't care what other people say.. I DON'T CARE!!.
> 
> watch the first part of naruto when mizuki comes back if you want to know who fugin and rijin are.



well if to you these are in the right order you are nuts, Also the Naruto Anime is non Canon Feats from the anime do not count.

Please Explain to me on how
Sakura
Sai
Yamato 

Would beat Kakashi in a fight.


----------



## Immortal (May 27, 2010)

Ejenku said:


> In part 2 at this point from feats and hype/abilities but just because someone is listed higher doesn't mean there is much of a gap or that they can beat someone ranked lower.
> 
> Nagato/Madara
> Kabuto
> ...



I think ranking Itachi with Orochimaru and Jiraiya is absurd :/
Also, I believe that the Raikage is right below the Sasuke/Naruto/Bee rankings.
Lastly, Hidan is one of the most dangerous ninja when there is no knowledge of his ability.
That said, nice list.


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## Lightysnake (May 27, 2010)

Itachi and Jiraiya are on par. Though I agree A belongs below the latter tier.


----------



## Sajin Komamura (May 27, 2010)

There's to many characters for me to remember them all but I will name the once I do remember in order from who I believe is the strongest.

Rikudou Sage
Hashirama
Madara
Minato
Kabutomaru
Pain/Nagato
Itachi
Sasuke
Naruto
Hiruzen
Jiraiya
Orochimaro
Sasori
Tsunade
Raikage
Chiyo
Kisame
Bee
Kakuzu
Gaara
Deidara
Kakashi
Gai

I am pretty sure I am forgetting some really strong people that should be on that list.... oh well.


----------



## Thunder (May 27, 2010)

Good list. I would put Tsunade a little lower and put Bee higher though.


----------



## Respite (May 27, 2010)

Im still loling on how Tobi365 put sai sakura and yamato above kakashi.
And fujin and raijin dont exist.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 28, 2010)

tobi365 said:


> ok.. well to me these people are in the right order. i don't care what other people say.. I DON'T CARE!!.
> 
> watch the first part of naruto when mizuki comes back if you want to know who fugin and rijin are.



Fujin and Rijin got fodderized by Tsunade and had trouble with pretimeskip Ino, Chouji and Shikamaru. Theres no way they belong in second place(and above Tsunade, the person who destroyed them with her finger). Sure, they seemed fast and strong. But Kakashi's much faster and I doubt they could tank a Rikari. 

And Sakura and Sai are weak. Sai only has ink creatures, Kakashi's Raiton wolf alone could destroy most of them. The ink would disperse upon contact with the wolf and Kakashi>Sai in Taijutsu. He has higher speed, more skill(spars with Gai on regular basis) and has the Sharingan. Sakura is slow, bad Taijutsu skills(horribly linear and it requires Chakra to use, which she needs for stuff like Shunshin and Medical jutsu) and mediocre Medical skills.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (May 28, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> There's to many characters for me to remember them all but I will name the once I do remember in order from who I believe is the strongest.
> 
> Rikudou Sage
> Hashirama
> ...



Finally, one of the better lists. Except, Sasuke should be on par with Naruto, A should be closer to Naruto and Sasuke and Bee should be above Itachi and probably Nagato as well.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (May 28, 2010)

Chiyo is too high up on that list though. Deidara, Bee, Kisame, Kakuzu, Kakashi and Gaara would all beat her with relative ease.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (May 28, 2010)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Chiyo is too high up on that list though. Deidara, Bee, Kisame, Kakuzu, Kakashi and Gaara would all beat her with relative ease.



Agreed with that.


----------



## SharinganSkill (May 28, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> I am pretty sure I am forgetting some really strong people that should be on that list.... oh well.



Danzo and Tobirama


----------



## Immortal (May 28, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> There's to many characters for me to remember them all but I will name the once I do remember in order from who I believe is the strongest.
> 
> Rikudou Sage
> Hashirama
> ...



Kisame should definitely be higher, and I obviously argue Itachi should be higher as well, although that's not as obvious. This is a great list imo.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

why should Itachi surpass Pain or Kabuto?


----------



## justarandomguy (May 28, 2010)

madara is waaaay overrated. he has EMS, but :


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## Immortal (May 28, 2010)

dont wanna start too big of a debate here 
But I strongly believe that Itachi's Susano'o is nearly unstoppable. And that's just his last resort. Without Susano'o, a healthy Itachi is still top tier material.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

Okay, consider this:

Itachi without real limitations is one of Kabuto's summons. Part of his power.

Pain has three ways to defeat Susanoo: Chibaku Tensei, absorbing it as it's made of chakra, or dispersing it via Shinra Tensei was is stated to disperse chakra and ninjutsu, which Susanoo is. Pain is top tier as well and in Akatsuki, he was THE top tier.


----------



## SharinganSkill (May 28, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi without real limitations is one of Kabuto's summons. Part of his power.



Nice Edo Tensei hype, but those zombies are not as strong as they were during their life. Nidaime & Shodai would own old Hiruzen easily.


----------



## Judecious (May 28, 2010)

Wind Master said:


> Finally, one of the better lists. Except, Sasuke should be on par with Naruto, A should be closer to Naruto and Sasuke and Bee should be above Itachi and probably Nagato as well.



wait you think bee>pain?


----------



## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

Orochimaru was toying with Hiruzen with his Edo Tensei. Is there anything that implies the ET zombies re substantially weaker?

And I agree...Bee is not above Nagato. No way, no how. Everything Kisame did to him, Pain can do faster.

Taijutsu is countered by shared vision and skilled bodies
Version 1 by Deva and Preta
V2 by the same

Full Bijuu is countered by Shinra Tensei.


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## Thunder (May 28, 2010)

Personally, I believe those Zombies were not as powerful because they were mind less.


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## Immortal (May 28, 2010)

But Itachi's Susano'o has a shield stated to repel any attack... I don't see how you can beat that.
I also don't believe that Zombie Itachi has all the abilities of normal Itachi, if it turns out that he does, than Kabuto is clearly stronger than both Itachi and Nagato. (since he has both of them in his own arsenal )


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## SharinganSkill (May 28, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Personally, I believe those Zombies were not as powerful because they were mind less.



This. Because mind is the most important weapon of shinobi, not techniques.


----------



## Thunder (May 28, 2010)

Exactly. A mindless Kakashi would not be as powerful because he wouldn't be able to come up with the good tactics he is known for.


----------



## Sajin Komamura (May 28, 2010)

justarandomguy said:


> madara is waaaay overrated. he has EMS, but :



Who said the Madara on the list has to be current Madara?



Atlantic Storm said:


> Chiyo is too high up on that list though. Deidara, Bee, Kisame, Kakuzu, Kakashi and Gaara would all beat her with relative ease.



But... she is a badass 

Although I suppose your right about Bee, Kisame, Kakuzu being capable of beating her. Maybe I am hyping her too much but I do consider chiyo to be the second strongest female character to be introduced so far in the manga. She is the second best puppet master we have seen and was capable of soloing a castle by herself!! She was Tsunades rival who is currently the strongest female character alive. Those 10 puppets are absolutely insane also what many seem to forget is that the Chiyo we saw was old and rusty since she hasn't fought in a hell of a long time. Can you imagine Chiyo in her prime! 

But ya Chiyo, Bee, Kisame, Kakuzu can pretty much be placed in any order cause I do consider any of them a tier above eachother.


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## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> Who said the Madara on the list has to be current Madara?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chiyo is strong, yeah, but we have to measure what we saw and she was well below Sasori...or most Akatsuki. Plus, it was less a rivalry with her and Tsunade and more Tsunade countering her poisons.


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## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> But Itachi's Susano'o has a shield stated to repel any attack... I don't see how you can beat that.
> I also don't believe that Zombie Itachi has all the abilities of normal Itachi, if it turns out that he does, than Kabuto is clearly stronger than both Itachi and Nagato. (since he has both of them in his own arsenal )



I'm hardly denying the latter. But Yata's Mirror is chakra besides and can be absorbed or dispelled with the rest of Susanoo. And Chibaku Tensei can still contain it and Yomi Numa can still sink it.

Pain can also summon a statue to launch out soul eating dragons, don't forget.
Plus, Itachi dies if he keeps Susanoo up for too long. Pain is unquestionably his superior, hence being the leader


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## IzanagiRikudo (May 28, 2010)

1) Rikudo Sennin
2) Madara
3) Sasuke Uchiha (EMS; Madara said he would become stronger than Nagato...) 
4) Pein/Nagato
5) Hashirama Senju
6) Hiruzen Sarutobi (PRIME)
7) Minato Namikaze
8) Itachi Uchiha 
9) Kabutomaru
10) Naruto
11) Killer Bee
12) Kisame
13) Orochimaru
14) Kakuzu 
15) Raikage
16) Sasori 
17) Kakashi
18) Deidara
19) Gaara
20) Konan


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## Lightysnake (May 28, 2010)

At no point did Madara says MES Sasuke>Nagato. 

And Jiraiya isn't even ON the list? Itachi stornger than Kabuto?


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## SharinganSkill (May 29, 2010)

IMO:

Rikudou Sennin
Uchiha Madara
Senju Hashirama
Pein
Namikaze Minato
Kabuchimaru
Uchiha Itachi
Uchiha Sasuke
Uzumaki Naruto
Killer Bee
Sarutobi Hiruzen (young)
Jiraiya
Akasuna no Sasori
Senju Tobirama
Orochimaru
Current Raikage
Shimura Danzo
Deidara
Hoshigaki Kisame
Hatake Kakashi


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## justarandomguy (May 29, 2010)

*reply*



Lightysnake said:


> At no point did Madara says MES Sasuke>Nagato.
> 
> And Jiraiya isn't even ON the list? Itachi stornger than Kabuto?



itachi is. edo tensei is ovverated. when they are ressurcted they are weaker, as shown when hiruzen fought oro.


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## Immortal (May 29, 2010)

Loved your list Sharingan Skill, just didn't like getting to the bottom and seeing Kisame under Deidara!


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## SharinganSkill (May 29, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Loved your list Sharingan Skill, just didn't like getting to the bottom and seeing Kisame under Deidara!



I remember Deidara x Kisame topic being a complete rampage (it was 50:50), so I understand you. This is just my opinion and I dont say it?s the right one. This one?s really hard to call.


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## Kisame (May 29, 2010)

I noticed that everybody ranks madara higher than hashirama how is that so?
if ur talking about old madara,he got beat by him.
if ur talking about now madara,he said he was even weaker than before.


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## Aoshi (May 29, 2010)

Here's my list:

Rikudou Sennin
Prime Hashirama
Prime Madara
Pain
Prime Sarutobi
Minato
Kabuto
HM Jiraiya
Itachi
Killer Bee
Raikage
SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Orochimaru
Danzo
Tsunade
Sasori
Kakazu
Kisame
Kakashi

I had trouble placing HM Jiraiya, Itachi, Killer Bee, Raikage, Sasuke, and SM Naruto in order. I'm just going to say that they are all around the same level and that the characters I stated above are in no particular order. Those characters can most likely be mixed up in any order.


----------



## Big Mom (May 29, 2010)

Anyone else thinks Shizune makes the list?

You are fogeting something-


1) Rin!
2) Sage of Six Paths
3) ...

Thats the true order.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 29, 2010)

I have a question for those putting Hashirama and Prime Madara over Pain-do you think that a Pokemon trainer is the most powerful thing alive then due to controling several 'beasts'? Since Hashirama and Prime Madara could control Bijuu, that makes them 'more powerful than Pain'. Again, its like saying that Pokemon Trainers are more powerful than Superman since they can 'control' a team of beasts.

Pain has better feats than both of them, and this is all _without_ 'catching' a Bijuu to do some massive property damage.


----------



## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

I understand where you are coming from, but it isn't really comparable to Pokemon. Hash and Madara's Kekkei Genkai allow them to directly place the Bijuu under their control, so its part of their power. Pokemon trainers don't use their powers to control Pokemon. Its like comparing someone who owns pets to someone that can directly influence and control them at will. But I see your point.


----------



## Sajin Komamura (May 29, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but it isn't really comparable to Pokemon. Hash and Madara's Kekkei Genkai allow them to directly place the Bijuu under their control, so its part of their power. *Pokemon trainers don't use their powers to control Pokemon.* Its like comparing someone who owns pets to someone that can directly influence and control them at will. But I see your point.



Giovanni with Mewtwo wants a word with you.

Oh God!! did I just argue with someone about something that happened in pokemon?!? I should stop drinking this stuff.


----------



## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> Giovanni with Mewtwo wants a word with you.
> 
> Oh God!! did I just argue with someone about something that happened in pokemon?!? I should stop drinking this stuff.



Lol, Giovanni didn't directly control Mewtwo with his powers. Mewtwo followed his orders because it was mutually beneficial, until he got bored and blew up his HQ. But yeah, arguing about Pokemon


----------



## Sajin Komamura (May 29, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Lol, Giovanni didn't directly control Mewtwo with his powers. Mewtwo followed his orders because it was mutually beneficial, until he got bored and blew up his HQ. But yeah, arguing about Pokemon



Didn't Giovanni put a device on Mewtwo to allow him to have full control over Mewtwo's actions? I could be wrong I haven't watched pokemon in years.

Anyway this is going waaaaaay out of topic.


----------



## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> Didn't Giovanni put a device on Mewtwo to allow him to have full control over Mewtwo's actions? I could be wrong I haven't watched pokemon in years.
> 
> Anyway this is going waaaaaay out of topic.



IIRC, it just suppressed his powers a little, didn't control him. Besides, if he is using a machine, it doesn't count. That's not his own power.

Off topic? Tends to happen a lot here


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## Excalibur (May 29, 2010)

Hello 


1.Hashirama/Madara
2.Nagato
3.Kabuto
4.Killerbee
5.Sasuke
6.Naruto
7.Minato
8.Itachi
9.Jiraiya/Orochimaru
10.Gaara/Kakashi
11.Onoki
12.Raikage
13.Sasori
14.Kisame
15.Deidara
16.Kakuzu
17.Gai
18.Mei
19.Tsunade
20.Yamato

edit:: I feel as though Kisame should be higher but it was tough placing him.If I do replace him he will be right behind jiraiya and orochimaru.


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## Lightysnake (May 29, 2010)

Kisame should honestly be lower than Deidara. Gaara, Kakashi, Onoki, too. Mei and Tsunade are easily strongest than Gai and Minato should be way higher.

And Itachi and Jiraiya are easily on the same level


----------



## Sanbi (May 29, 2010)

Sasuke, and Naruto are too high, unless you are including Kyuubi and EMS. Garra, Kakashi and Onoki are too high,


----------



## Excalibur (May 29, 2010)

Yes this is Sasuke with EMS and Naruto with Sage mode and Kyuubi training.and Im talking about naruto learning to control the kyuubi.


----------



## Sanbi (May 29, 2010)

We have no idea how strong either of those two will be, so I don't know why you are rating them.


----------



## Excalibur (May 29, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kisame should honestly be lower than Deidara. Gaara, Kakashi, Onoki, too. Mei and Tsunade are easily strongest than Gai and Minato should be way higher.
> 
> And Itachi and Jiraiya are easily on the same level




So you think Kisame is weaker than deidara?

I agree about Gaara,Kakashi and Onoki. But Kakashi can drop 2-3 spots on my list that's the lowest he gets...

I agree about Tsunade and Mei.

Minato..? didn't know where to place him I mean he doesn't have any serious feats..


----------



## Excalibur (May 29, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> We have no idea how strong either of those two will be, so I don't know why you are rating them.



This is Current Naruto and Sasuke what I really was trying to say.


----------



## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> Hello
> 
> 
> 1.Hashirama/Madara
> ...



Kakashi and Gaara are too high, IMO. I also think Yamato can be replaced with Hidan or something. And Danzo and Hiruzen should be in here.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 29, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> So you think Kisame is weaker than deidara?


Deidara is the worst matchup imaginable for him. Flight, elemental advantage, etc


> I agree about Gaara,Kakashi and Onoki. But Kakashi can drop 2-3 spots on my list that's the lowest he gets...


He's definitely at a disadvantage against the Akatsuki's high tiers



> I agree about Tsunade and Mei.
> 
> Minato..? didn't know where to place him I mean he doesn't have any serious feats..


he has one of, if not THE best speed feats in the entire manga from Kakashi Gaiden, and in addition to his accomplishments:
-Invented the Rasengan
-Invented the Hiraishin which is basically teleportation-Invented the Death God summoning
-His seal on Naruto is stronger than  the one on Bee. Reflect on this: In the middle of a desperate battle, Minato gave Naruto a seal that was stronger than Kumo with a massive amount of prep time and planning. And not only that, but he left a failsafe to summon him if Naruto ever lost control completely.
-Was named by Kakashi as the top ninja, as Kakashi believes only Naruto can surpass him.
-Is praised relentlessly by any and everyone who mentions him
-Apparently the Raikage's Raiton shroud brings his reflexes to 'on par' with Minato's
-Hiruzen and Anko believed he would be capable of destroying Orochimaru himself
- Had to fight Madara and the Kyuubi SIMULTANEOUSLY, drive off he former and seal the latter in Naruto. Singlehandedly

And unlike others, he did all this without even a bloodline and was only 22 or so, not even having hit his full potential


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## Excalibur (May 29, 2010)

OK so here's my new list..


1.Hashirama/Madara
2.Nagato
3.Kabuto(current)
4.Minato
5.Hiruzen(prime)
6.Killerbee
7.Sasuke(current)
8.Naruto(current)
9.Danzou
10.Itachi
11.Jiraiya/Orochimaru
12.Raikage
13.Sasori
14.Deidara
15.Kisame 
16.Kakuzu
17.Gaara
18.Kakashi
19.Tsunade
20.Mei


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## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> OK so here's my new list..
> 
> 
> 1.Hashirama/Madara
> ...



Much better  Not perfect, but no list is of course.


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## Excalibur (May 29, 2010)

^^yeah you got that right.. But Im kinda of skeptical about Kisame I mean he is one of the last remaining akatsuki members left along with zetsu who is surrounded by mystery.But I feel kisame's time is coming to an end in the manga..


----------



## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

Skeptical of what? His power?


----------



## Lightysnake (May 29, 2010)

Having survived longer isn't really a mark of strength. Hidan is still alive, after all...and he outlasted Sasori.

I'd rank Minato as better than Kabuto with the reaper thing, but besides that, good corrections!


----------



## Thunder (May 29, 2010)

Yeah, like Light said the Shinigami makes Minato pretty damn uber when combined with his other skills.


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## Nagatorinnegan (May 31, 2010)

1.Pein/Nagato
2.Madara/Tobi
3.Jiraiya
4.Itachi
5.Minato
6.Sasuke     I AM SORRY OROCHIMARU IS 6
7.Naruto
8.Kakashi
9.Kakuzu
10.Hidan
11.Kisame
12.Sasori
13.Deidara
.....


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Are you saying Oro is where Sasuke should be? If that's the case, where do you place Sasuke?


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## Nagatorinnegan (May 31, 2010)

sasuke is 7 place


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Fix your list nagatoRinnegan.

1) Hiruzen prime
2) Hashirama/Onoki
3) tobirama
4) Madara/Rin
5) Kisame
6) Minato/Danzo
7) Itachi
8) Orochimaru
9) Killer Bee
10) Raikage


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

@ nagatoRinnegan Okay, I few things I would change-I would put Hidan and Kakashi a little lower, Minato above Jiraiya, and add in some key characters you forget. Danzo, Bee, Tsunade and Raikage to name a few.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

You shoudl explain to him why L.o.t


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

and why the hell is Kisame that high?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Not really good at explaining things, so I'll just give you a quick example of a list I would make.

1)Sage of the Six Paths
2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
3)Madara Uchiha (prime)
4)Kabuto Yakushi
5)Pain
6)Minato Namikaze
7)Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)
8)Jiraiya/Itachi Uchiha
9)Killer Bee/Danzo Shimura
10)Naruto Uzumaki/Sasuke Uchiha
11)Orochimaru
12)Raikage
13)Sasori
14)Deidara
15)Kisame Hoshigaki
16)Kakazu
17)Gaara
18)Tsunade
19)Kakashi Hakate
20)Hidan


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen is not on your list L.o.t?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

It was just a list I threw together. Prime Hiruzen would be below Minato based on hype.


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

My only real problem is how high up Kakuzu is. Above Sasori, and Deidara?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Yeah good point, I'll fix that.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Below Minato? Really? 

And also, where is Hanzo, White Fang, Onoki?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Below Minato? Really?
> 
> And also, where is Hanzo, White Fang, Onoki?



Sure, _Hiraishin no Jutsu_ is broken. I didn't bother putting White Fang in because we have nothing but hype. At least with the others we know some of the jutsu they used. As for Onoki, I wont put him in until he showcases more. We have nothing but hype from Hanzo either.

If your really curious about where I would place them, White Fang would probably be below Itachi. Hanzo, below or above him. Gaara would be replaced with Onoki


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## Immortal (May 31, 2010)

Jiraiya is too high on your list and Naruto/Sauce are too low.
IMO of course.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Jiraiya is too high on your list and Naruto/Sauce are too low.
> IMO of course.



Nah, I think HM Jiraiya should be up there. I should probably make him equal with Itachi, actually. I didn't include EMS and Kyuubi control with Sasuke and Naruto, so I think their placement is fair

Thanks for the suggestions anyways.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

I'd say Kisame's a mite high myself.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Well I took his Water Dome combo into consideration. Where would you place him?


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

TBH, a little below Deidara and Sasori. Deidara has way too many advantages to be considered weaker.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Yeah, I made the list kind of quick. Forgot that he has the elemental advantage Doton>Suiton. Fixed


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## Sajin Komamura (May 31, 2010)

Where in god's name is Raikage!!!

Of all people how can you forget him!!! RAWR!!!


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## Sajin Komamura (May 31, 2010)

NVM I just found out his name is A. lol what a funny named =D


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Lol, to think I would forget Raikage


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

The Raikage's dad is possibly the least imaginative father when it came to naming kids


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

I know, right.


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## SM00TH38 (May 31, 2010)

1)Hashirama Senju (prime)
2)Madara Uchiha (prime)
3)Pain/Itachi/Minato
6)Naruto/Sasuke
8)Killer Bee
9)Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)
10)Danzo Shimura
11)Orochimaru
12)Raikage
13)Jiriaya
14)Tsunade 
15)Sasori
16)Kisame Hoshigaki/Kakazu
18)Deidara
19)Kakashi Hakate
20)Gaara
21)Hidan


did i forget anything


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

From what I can see, Jiraiya is too low, Tsunade too high, and why are Pain, Minato and Itachi equal?


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## sanji's left eye (May 31, 2010)

Yeah Itachi is too high as is Tsunade and Jiraiya is too low.


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## Smiley (May 31, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Not really good at explaining things, so I'll just give you a quick example of a list I would make.
> 
> 1)Hashirama Senju (prime)
> 2)Madara Uchiha (prime)
> ...





I'd Put Kisame About The Same As KB.
Plus Naruto And Sasuke Have both Surpassed Jiraiya And Itachi. (But Still Equals With Eachother)


Other Than That This Is The Most Accurate List I've Seen So Far, Nice One


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

I'm not sure i ever did i list just tiers; So i'll give it a shot

1-Rikudo Sage
2-Hashirama(Prime)
3-Madara(Prime)
4-Kabuto Yakushi
5-Minato
6-Nagato
7-Killer Bee
8-Jiraiya/Itachi/Hiruzen(Prime)
10-Sasori/Orochimaru
11-Danzo
12-Naruto/Sasuke
13-Kisame
14-Raikage
15-Dedaria
16-Garaa
17-Kakakashi/Gai
18-Kazuku/Tsunade
19-Yugito
20-Hidan
21-Chiyo
22-Hyuuga Haishi/Uchiha Fungeko
23-Yamato
24-Kage Guards
25-Kurunai
26-Asuma
26-Shikkaku/Inoichi/Chouza
27-Hyuuga Neiji
28-Rock Lee/Shikkamaru
29-Shizune/Anko
30-Shino/Chouji

Thats my top 30


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> I'd Put Kisame About The Same As KB.
> Plus Naruto And Sasuke Have both Surpassed Jiraiya And Itachi. (But Still Equals With Eachother)
> 
> 
> Other Than That This Is The Most Accurate List I've Seen So Far, Nice One



Kisame is indeed good, but not quite top tier. He did so well against Bee because he is a bad match up for Jinchuuriki's in general. The versions of Naruto and Sasuke I have are before EMS and Kyuubi. We don't really have enough info on them yet to accurately place them. I do agree they will be above Jiraiya and Itachi though

Thanks for the compliments and suggestions


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Killer Bee>Hiruzen...? REALLY?

Also, dont listen to lighty, he always underestimates Kisame.

Kisame should be directly below Nagato.


Why is Kabuto>Orochimaru? Anyone?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Directly below Nagato? Thats way to high.


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## SM00TH38 (May 31, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> From what I can see, Jiraiya is too low, Tsunade too high, and why are Pain, Minato and Itachi equal?



we all have are own opinion, and i feel like minato, itachi and pain are on similar lvl of strenght.

as for jiriaya i dont see him beating anyone above him on an even playing field. 

tsunada... i know women are fodder for kishi, thats more or less where i want her to be then any actual feats we have from her.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Lord of Thunder- Explanation?


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

They are not. Pain is stronger than Itachi easily. And I'd like a good explanation for Kisame always being ranked as insanely high as he seems to be. 

And Turrin, Deidara's way too low there. He's easily on par with Kisame and the other high level Akatsuki.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

SM00TH38 said:


> we all have are own opinion, and i feel like minato, itachi and pain are on similar lvl of strenght.
> 
> as for jiriaya i dont see him beating anyone above him on an even playing field.
> 
> tsunada... i know women are fodder for kishi, thats more or less where i want her to be then any actual feats we have from her.



*1)Hashirama Senju (prime)
2)Madara Uchiha (prime)
3)Pain/Itachi/Minato
6)Naruto/Sasuke
8)Killer Bee
9)Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)
10)Danzo Shimura
11)Orochimaru
12)Raikage*
13)Jiriaya
14)Tsunade
15)Sasori
16)Kisame Hoshigaki/Kakazu
18)Deidara
19)Kakashi Hakate
20)Gaara
21)Hidan

I agree he can't beat Hashirama, Madara, Pain, Minato, but he can certainly beat Raikage. Trust me, I know this as a Raikage fan. He has ways to defeat Itachi and Oro as well. Its just my opinion of course.


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## Sajin Komamura (May 31, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Not really good at explaining things, so I'll just give you a quick example of a list I would make.
> 
> 1)Sage of the Six Paths
> 2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
> ...



This list wins internet of the day. My only disagreement is Deidara as I think he should be dropped 2 numbers. I consider both Kisame and Kakuzu his superior. But that's only a minor detail cause other than that this is the best I've seen.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Kisame has super strength as well as high leves of ninjutsu. His insane amount of chakra as well as the abilty to absorb more can easily put him abov high levels.

And Deidara is not on pair with them. He needed tons of prep to get his ass kciked. He is the ONLY member to have a fight with prep(and still die).



WHY IS KILLER BEE ABOVE HIRUZEN?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Lord of Thunder- Explanation?



Kisame is no where near Pain's level. Its self explanatory. 



Cpt Sajin said:


> This list wins internet of the day. My only disagreement is Deidara as I think he should be dropped 2 numbers. I consider both Kisame and Kakuzu his superior. But that's only a minor detail cause other than that this is the best I've seen.



Well I put Deidara above Kisame because he has the elemental advantage as Doton>Suiton. He also as a way to deal with Water Dome with his clay bird. But yeah, they are all very close in power. 

Thanks for the compliment.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> Killer Bee>Hiruzen...? REALLY?


We haven't seen anything but hype from Hiruzen(Prime); The only thing credible about his level of strength is the fact that if he was 10 years younger he would have defeated Orochimaru + Tensi Nindaime and Shodai, but we don't even know if that would have cost him his own life via Shikka Fuujin.

So for now i'm just placing him one spot above Orochimaru on par with J-man and Itachi until more information comes to light.



> Why is Kabuto>Orochimaru? Anyone?


Kabuto has better Edo Tensi then Orochimaru and he has all of Orochimaru's abilities plus his own its as simple as that.



> And Turrin, Deidara's way too low there. He's easily on par with Kisame and the other high level Akatsuki.


Sorry i see Kisame as stronger then Dedaria; I see Dedaria as too fragile to fight with the higher level Ninja


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> I'm not sure i ever did i list just tiers; So i'll give it a shot
> 
> 1-Rikudo Sage
> 2-Hashirama(Prime)
> ...



A solid top 30 list. I have just a few minor disagreements that aren't worth noting.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> We haven't seen anything but hype from Hiruzen(Prime); The only thing credible about his level of strength is the fact that if he was 10 years younger he would have defeated Orochimaru + Tensi Nindaime and Shodai, but we don't even know if that would have cost him his own life via Shikka Fuujin.
> 
> So for now i'm just placing him one spot above Orochimaru on par with J-man and Itachi until more information comes to light.
> 
> ...



Turrin, how much attention did you pay to Deidara's fights, honestly? Fragile? Deidara lost an arm. It diodn't slow him down. When he went days without any treatment, he was able to evade Gai and his entire team. He's taken point blank explosions with no real damage and fell hundreds of feet without much injury.Compare their movesets...Kisame is horribly suited to take on someone with range on him, someone with a massive elemental advantage, C4, C3, C2? Deidara is faster, smarter, has better ninjutsu and he's good at taking hits without much an issue. He's also more versatile. And dodging ability? Deidara's evaded Gai's entire team when no where NEAR fresh unlike Kisame. Deidara has a move legitimately capable of killing any ninja who breathes and he isn't any more fragile than any other. I think you should reevaluate that.


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## Sajin Komamura (May 31, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Well I put Deidara above Kisame because he has the elemental advantage as Doton>Suiton. He also as a way to deal with Water Dome with his clay bird. But yeah, they are all very close in power.



Ah ok I wasn't aware you were taking battle types into consideration. I thought it was a list of who was a better ninja overall.



> Thanks for the compliment.



You don't have to be so mean.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> 1)Hashirama Senju (prime)
> 2)Madara Uchiha (prime)
> 3)Pain
> 4)Kabuto Yakushi
> ...


I have one question about you list LordThunder How come Bee is bellow Danzo; I can understand people putting Bee bellow J-man/Itachi, but i don't really see how Danzo could hope to defeat Bee. There really isn't much if anything at all Danzo can do to V2 Bee and Bee has enough Stamina to live through Danzo's onslaught during the time he is immortal via Izanagi.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> We haven't seen anything but hype from Hiruzen(Prime);


So, same can be said from Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama, and Madara yet they are above him. Out of all the three, we saw the most form Hiruzen.




> The only thing credible about his level of strength is the fact that if he was 10 years younger he would have defeated Orochimaru + Tensi Nindaime and Shodai, but we don't even know if that would have cost him his own life via Shikka Fuujin.



We can hint though. His stats are all 5 minus strength, speed, and chakra. And we all know these are the first to go in old age.



> Kabuto has better Edo Tensi then Orochimaru and he has all of Orochimaru's abilities plus his own its as simple as that.



He has shown like 2 of Oro's abilties. how can we assume he has them all?
Also, having a better edo tensei means shit. It means he had more bodies to sacrifice. Thats all.


Sorry i see Kisame as stronger then Dedaria; I see Dedaria as too fragile to fight with the higher level Ninja[/QUOTE]

I agree with this.





Also, Turrin, I don't feel lieke xplaning it, so go search for the danzo vs killer bee thread.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> Ah ok I wasn't aware you were taking battle types into consideration. I thought it was a list of who was a better ninja overall.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have to be so mean.



Mean? I was being sincere. 



Turrin said:


> I have one question about you list LordThunder How come Bee is bellow Danzo; I can understand people putting Bee bellow J-man/Itachi, but i don't really see how Danzo could hope to defeat Bee. There really isn't much if anything at all Danzo can do to V2 Bee and Bee has enough Stamina to live through Danzo's onslaught during the time he is immortal via Izanagi.



Yeah, you may be right. I was taking Shishi's eye into consideration. I didn't really think about Bee's durability as I made the list rather quickly.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

No no. You were right Thunder.

Danzo has many ways to beat the Hachibi, by shisui's eye, controlling it, wood release, sharigans, and wind release.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> Turrin, how much attention did you pay to Deidara's fights, honestly? Fragile? Deidara lost an arm. It diodn't slow him down. When he went days without any treatment, he was able to evade Gai and his entire team. He's taken point blank explosions with no real damage and fell hundreds of feet without much injury.


What i mean by fragile is that Dedaria really lacks Defense; Sure he is no wimp and he can take Pain, but Dedaria is all Offensive one trick pony. 

His One Trick Pony Nature of Completely depending on Kibaku Nendo means that his entire fighting style can be fucked over by some one who has a good counter to Kibaku Nendo and worse yet Kibaku Nendo is an Elemental Technique thus allowing Raiton to totally fuck over Dedaria's entire style of fighting. Even Kakashi who i consider weaker then him would have a shot at beating him because of this.

His lack of Defense pretty much means he has nothing that can stop the more Lethal moves of the upper tiers which is a huge problem. And aside from even the Upper tiers Dedaria's lack of Defense means that Fighters even weaker then him have a shot at bringing him down with a clever strategy because he simply has no way to defend

Again to me Dedaria is far 2 much of a one trick pony with no defense. His offense is Upper Tier No question about that, but thats not all there is too it. Dedaria would have been incredibly strong if he had a 2 Second Elemental Technique or a none elemental technique like Kibaku Nendo and if he had a few Defensive Techniques, but thats simply not the case.



> Kisame is horribly suited to take on someone with range on him, someone with a massive elemental advantage, C4, C3, C2?


Kisame being horribly suited does not mean that Dedaria is better then him; It just means some people may consider Dedaria a poor match up for Kisame; Just like Kisame is a poor match up for Bee. 



> Deidara is faster, smarter, has better ninjutsu and he's good at taking hits without much an issue. He's also more versatile. And dodging ability? Deidara's evaded Gai's entire team when no where NEAR fresh unlike Kisame. Deidara has a move legitimately capable of killing any ninja who breathes and he isn't any more fragile than any other. I think you should reevaluate that.


One can list the things Kisame is better at then Dedaria; Like Stamina, Strength, Taijutsu, Durability, Regen, Experience, and so on. Kisame simple seems to me the more lethal of the two fighters its very hard for any Ninja to defeat an enemy with high speed regeneration when his sword is rendering Ninjutsu useless


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> No no. You were right Thunder.
> 
> Danzo has many ways to beat the Hachibi, by shisui's eye, controlling it, wood release, sharigans, and wind release.



You and Turrin make good points. I'll at least make them equal.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Can you repost your new list Thunder?


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Sure, edited list:

1)Sage of the Six Paths
2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
3)Madara Uchiha (prime)
4)Kabuto Yakushi
5)Pain
6)Minato Namikaze
7)Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)
8)Jiraiya/Itachi Uchiha
9)Orochimaru (With Tensei)
10)Killer Bee/Danzo Shimura
11)Naruto Uzumaki/Sasuke Uchiha (No EMS, Kyuubi)
12)Orochimaru
13)Raikage
14)Sasori
15)Deidara
16)Kisame Hoshigaki
17)Kakazu
18)Gaara
19)Tsunade
20)Kakashi Hakate


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> So, same can be said from Hashirama, Minato, Tobirama, and Madara yet they are above him. Out of all the three, we saw the most form Hiruzen.


Not really; Because i know why Hashirama, Minato, and Madara are above him. Hashirama had Multiple Bijuu under his control and Madara had the Kyuubi under his control thats way more impressive then anything we know Sarutobi could do. Minato could summon the Death God to do his bidding and could control Space-Time to move at instant speeds; also something above what Hiruzen has shown. 



> We can hint though. His stats are all 5 minus strength, speed, and chakra. And we all know these are the first to go in old age.


Idk see how that proves he is above where i placed him; I put him on Par with Itachi and J-man thats pretty dam high. 



> He has shown like 2 of Oro's abilties. how can we assume he has them all?
> Also, having a better edo tensei means shit. It means he had more bodies to sacrifice. Thats all.


He has all of Oro's abilities because he said he could control Oro's power/abilities now and he also said he took Edo Tensi further then Oro. 

Ask yourself whose going to win; Kabuto with Oro's Powers and his own + 5 Tensi or Oro + 3 Tensi?



> Danzo has many ways to beat the Hachibi, by shisui's eye, controlling it, wood release, sharigans, and wind release.



-Shishui's Eye; Bee is Immune to Genjutsu and if we assume its that potent and easy to cast then Danzo should be above J-man and Itachi as well

-When did danzo have the ability to control a Jin?

-When did Danzo show the ability to use Shodai's Bijuu Suppression. Mokuton alone can't control a Bijuu; Not to mention using Mokuton seemed very dangerous for Danzo

-What do Sharigans do?

-Wind Release wouldn't do anything



> Yeah, you may be right. I was taking Shishi's eye into consideration. I didn't really think about Bee's durability as I made the list rather quickly.


No harm done; I was just wondering.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> What i mean by fragile is that Dedaria really lacks Defense; Sure he is no wimp and he can take Pain, but Dedaria is all Offensive one trick pony.


Not particularly. He can alter his explosions however he wants, make different types for different purposes, use C3 or C4...




> His One Trick Pony Nature of Completely depending on Kibaku Nendo means that his entire fighting style can be fucked over by some one who has a good counter to Kibaku Nendo and worse yet Kibaku Nendo is an Elemental Technique thus allowing Raiton to totally fuck over Dedaria's entire style of fighting. Even Kakashi who i consider weaker then him would have a shot at beating him because of this.


No, not really. Know why? Because even if you have Raiton, you don't have a defense to C4 without a Dojutsu as well. How do you survive that?
And what does that mean for Kisame? His fighting style revolves around Suitons.
But anyone with a Raiton can take Deidara but a high level Doton user can't beat Kisame? When they have an attack that can disintegrate him right off?



> His lack of Defense pretty much means he has nothing that can stop the more Lethal moves of the upper tiers which is a huge problem. And aside from even the Upper tiers Dedaria's lack of Defense means that Fighters even weaker then him have a shot at bringing him down with a clever strategy because he simply has no way to defend


Deidara performed some of the best bunshin feints in the series. He doesn't really need defense when he has range over almost every opponent. He's too smart to fall for most strategies, too. He makes his own up as well.



> Again to me Dedaria is far 2 much of a one trick pony with no defense. His offense is Upper Tier No question about that, but thats not all there is too it. Dedaria would have been incredibly strong if he had a 2 Second Elemental Technique or a none elemental technique like Kibaku Nendo and if he had a few Defensive Techniques, but thats simply not the case.


 Kisame has nothing by way of defense either beyond 'let Samehada do it.'
Deidara's defense is his exceptional dodging abilities, substitution abilities and his range. Why is that not taken into account? 



> Kisame being horribly suited does not mean that Dedaria is better then him; It just means some people may consider Dedaria a poor match up for Kisame; Just like Kisame is a poor match up for Bee.


The problem is there's so few ways Kisame can do better against your basic third party at the same time. C4 alone puts Deidara easily on the levels of the upper tiers. 



> One can list the things Kisame is better at then Dedaria; Like Stamina, Strength, Taijutsu, Durability, Regen, Experience, and so on. Kisame simple seems to me the more lethal of the two fighters its very hard for any Ninja to defeat an enemy with high speed regeneration when his sword is rendering Ninjutsu useless


Deidara's got superior speed, dodging, intelligence, offense, jutsu and other things. What Deidara can do better is remain safely out of danger of most of even the higher level fighters and has an attack that kills 99 percent of them instantly if he's inclined to use that. Kisame doesn't have that. Stamina and strength mean nothing in a battle like this. Neither do Taijutsu. His durability means nothing against these explosions that can cripple even a CS2 fighter and he can't regenerate limbs. Experience likewise means nothing here.

You're taking off points for Deidara being a one trick pony when he isn't. His fighting style has incredibly variety with what he has to work with when he's allowed to go all out. Kisame's fighting style revolves around Samehada. Without it, he's also very 'one trick.'
If Deidara can take him on and out, he's on that tier. You can't tack on lack of defense to a guy whose entire defense is speed and evasion ability.

And Turrin? You can't use Bee's genjutsu immunity against Shisui's eye. Remember Yagura?


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> 1)Sage of the Six Paths
> 2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
> 3)Madara Uchiha (prime)
> 4)Kabuto Yakushi
> ...


Another quick question; If your counting Tensi for Kabuto which i would assume you are since he is high on your list how come Oro is bellow naruto and Sasuke; Nether Sasuke nor naruto has really anyway to kill the Tensi and Oro can summon 3 of them. I say he should be at least on par with them if not a tier higher.

And Sasori seems a bit low to me considering how dangerous his ability is and it being nearly impossible to avoid Saitetsu keshou w/o a scratch. 

Other then that though i disagree on a few things this list is pretty solid.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Kabuto's Edo Tensei seems a normal part of his moveset. It wasn't for Oro.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Not really; Because i know why Hashirama, Minato, and Madara are above him. Hashirama had Multiple Bijuu under his control and Madara had the Kyuubi under his control thats way more impressive then anything we know Sarutobi could do. Minato could summon the Death God to do his bidding and could control Space-Time to move at instant speeds; also something above what Hiruzen has shown.



That was part of his kekkei genkai, not his actual fighting ability.
Same for MAdara. Hiruzen could also summon the death god. He had superior tai,gen,and nin skills. Speed is only half the fight.




> He has all of Oro's abilities because he said he could control Oro's power/abilities now and he also said he took Edo Tensi further then Oro.



He didnt say how much or how great his control was. And again, he had more bodies. 



> Ask yourself whose going to win; Kabuto with Oro's Powers and his own + 5 Tensi or Oro + 3 Tensi?



Kabuto with two of oro's abilties and weaker bodies vs oro and the strongest on the naruto verse....

ORO.





> -Shishui's Eye; Bee is Immune to Genjutsu and if we assume its that potent and easy to cast then Danzo should be above J-man and Itachi as well
> 
> -When did danzo have the ability to control a Jin?
> 
> ...



But he has to realize he is in a genjutsu to break out. And under shuisi's eye genjutsu, you don't.

He hasn't but Madara stated he could. Similar to you Kabuto thing.

Sharigans can copy movement, predict moves, and all that haxxed crap.

Wind release powered up by Baku could easily beat the hachibi.


----------



## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Sure, edited list:
> 
> 1)Sage of the Six Paths
> 2)Hashirama Senju (prime)- why?
> ...



Why is Hashirama, Minato and MAdara above Hiruzen?

Wheres Tobirama?

Why is Deidara>Kisame?

Why is killer bee and Danzo on the same level?


----------



## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Because Deidara does>Kisame. Superior range, speed, better ninjutsu, elemental advantage, cna bypass his regen, etc


----------



## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> Not particularly. He can alter his explosions however he wants, make different types for different purposes, use C3 or C4...


Sure, but its still originating from 1 technique



> No, not really. Know why? Because even if you have Raiton, you don't have a defense to C4 without a Dojutsu as well. How do you survive that?
> And what does that mean for Kisame? His fighting style revolves around Suitons.
> But anyone with a Raiton can take Deidara but a high level Doton user can't beat Kisame? When they have an attack that can disintegrate him right off?



-You don't need a Dojutsu you just need to be able to detect C4

-Kisame's fighting style doesn't revolve totally around Suitons though; He has shown he can use Doton and another big aspect of his fighting styles is Samehada



> Deidara performed some of the best bunshin feints in the series. He doesn't really need defense when he has range over almost every opponent. He's too smart to fall for most strategies, too. He makes his own up as well.


Actually a-lot of enemies have techniques that can reach Dedaria at his range; Sasuke showed a simple wired Shuriken tactic can be effective.



> Kisame has nothing by way of defense either beyond 'let Samehada do it.'
> Deidara's defense is his exceptional dodging abilities, substitution abilities and his range. Why is that not taken into account?


Kisame is incredibly Durable, has high speed Regen, Has Samahada to block, and can absorb the chakra out of most jutsu; he has one of best Defenses in the manga. 



> The problem is there's so few ways Kisame can do better against your basic third party at the same time. C4 alone puts Deidara easily on the levels of the upper tiers.


I don't think Dedaria would even get the chance to use C4 against a-lot of the upper tiers because of his lack of defense in most scenario's. 



> Deidara's got superior speed, dodging, intelligence, offense, jutsu and other things. What Deidara can do better is remain safely out of danger of most of even the higher level fighters and has an attack that kills 99 percent of them instantly if he's inclined to use that. Kisame doesn't have that. Stamina and strength mean nothing in a battle like this. Neither do Taijutsu. His durability means nothing against these explosions that can cripple even a CS2 fighter and he can't regenerate limbs. Experience likewise means nothing here.
> 
> You're taking off points for Deidara being a one trick pony when he isn't. His fighting style has incredibly variety with what he has to work with when he's allowed to go all out. Kisame's fighting style revolves around Samehada. Without it, he's also very 'one trick.'
> If Deidara can take him on and out, he's on that tier. You can't tack on lack of defense to a guy whose entire defense is speed and evasion ability.


I think your overrating Dedaria a bit; Plus he is only 2 spots bellow Kisame so i'm not suggesting a major difference in strength i suppose he could move up to Raikage, but i say thats the limit



> And Turrin? You can't use Bee's genjutsu immunity against Shisui's eye. Remember Yagura?


I'm not going to begin to compare what frick Madara was capable of against the Sanbi host to what Danzo with a stolen eye from Shishui is capable of against the 8-tailed host.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Another quick question; If your counting Tensi for Kabuto which i would assume you are since he is high on your list how come Oro is bellow naruto and Sasuke; Nether Sasuke nor naruto has really anyway to kill the Tensi and Oro can summon 3 of them. I say he should be at least on par with them if not a tier higher.
> 
> And Sasori seems a bit low to me considering how dangerous his ability is and it being nearly impossible to avoid Saitetsu keshou w/o a scratch.
> 
> Other then that though i disagree on a few things this list is pretty solid.



Yes, I am indeed counting Tensei for Kabuto. Basically what Light said, Tensei seems to be Kabuto's "trademark". I put him so high because of who he can bring back and how many.

But yeah, with Tensei Oro would be higher. What I'll do is make an Oro with and without Tensei.

As for Sasori, I'll consider his placement, but for now it seems fine.


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## Sajin Komamura (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Why is Hashirama, Minato and MAdara above Hiruzen?



Cause they are stronger. What are you some type of Hiruzen fan or something?



> Wheres Tobirama?



The 2nd has zero feats so we have nothing to gauge his strength with. Being the 1st brother doesn't cut it.



> Why is Deidara>Kisame?



Good question? I wonder.



> Why is killer bee and Danzo on the same level?



It's believable. Non of them is exponentially stronger than the other really.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Deidara has the potenitial to be as strong as you say Lighty, but he wasnt. IMO he hardley new how to use his skills. He could have easily killed Sasuke if he went for real and new how to use his abiltity. But he didnt.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Sure, but its still originating from 1 technique


And everything Sasori has originates from the poison. Deidara has great variety with that technique 




> -You don't need a Dojutsu you just need to be able to detect C4


That doesn't tell you anything. Just 'chakra's around.' Does it tell you to hold your breath? What C4 is? No, not even a dOjutsu does that



> -Kisame's fighting style doesn't revolve totally around Suitons though; He has shown he can use Doton and another big aspect of his fighting styles is Samehada


He used one Doton for travel.
And okay, Suiton and Samehada. Two trick pony?




> Actually a-lot of enemies have techniques that can reach Dedaria at his range; Sasuke showed a simple wired Shuriken tactic can be effective.


That's not Deidara's full range, not by far. He also can't see it coming. 



> Kisame is incredibly Durable, has high speed Regen, Has Samahada to block, and can absorb the chakra out of most jutsu; he has one of best Defenses in the manga.


Kisame is not that durable. What he has is regeneration, there's a difference.
He also hurts against Deidara due to explosions.  And he's blocking WITH Samehada and it doesn't always cover him.



> I don't think Dedaria would even get the chance to use C4 against a-lot of the upper tiers because of his lack of defense in most scenario's.


What part of his speed aren't you taking into consideration? Speed is defense. Evasion is defensive. Kisame can block with Samehada, Deidara can dodge most anything. And he can do it while prepping C4.



> I think your overrating Dedaria a bit; Plus he is only 2 spots bellow Kisame so i'm not suggesting a major difference in strength i suppose he could move up to Raikage, but i say thats the limit


I just think Kisame's gotten insanely overrated. He can stay out of Kisame's range and if he uses C4 right off against a threat he perceives, that's it.



> I'm not going to begin to compare what frick Madara was capable of against the Sanbi host to what Danzo with a stolen eye from Shishui is capable of against the 8-tailed host.


The Sanbi Host, like Bee, had full control of the beast and direct comparisons are drawn to what happened to Yagura and Shisui's power


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Cpt Sajin said:


> Cause they are stronger. What are you some type of Hiruzen fan or something?



...maybe. But HOW? Hiruzen has more feats then them ALL.





> The 2nd has zero feats so we have nothing to gauge his strength with. Being the 1st brother doesn't cut it.



He has shown as much feats as Hashirama in their fight. 




> It's believable. Non of them is exponentially stronger than the other really.



okay........................ but danzo is clearly superior.


----------



## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Deidara has the potenitial to be as strong as you say Lighty, but he wasnt. IMO he hardley new how to use his skills. He could have easily killed Sasuke if he went for real and new how to use his abiltity. But he didnt.



He 'hardly knew?' Since when? He knew what he was doing. Against Sasuke, he just had a Sharingan hate on and decided to play around and brag when he could have finished it with a hand seal. 

He knew how to use his abilities just fine, so don't throw that around. When did he 'not know' how to use his ability? Seriously.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He 'hardly knew?' Since when? He knew what he was doing. Against Sasuke, he just had a Sharingan hate on and decided to play around and brag when he could have finished it with a hand seal.
> 
> He knew how to use his abilities just fine, so don't throw that around. When did he 'not know' how to use his ability? Seriously.



Yes so an IC deidara would play with Kisame and get himself killed.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> That was part of his kekkei genkai, not his actual fighting ability.
> Same for MAdara. Hiruzen could also summon the death god. He had superior tai,gen,and nin skills. Speed is only half the fight.



-Their Kekkei Genkai is part of their Fighting Ability in my opinion; If this list left out Kekkei Genkai powers then my list would be much different

-Hiruzen did not invent the Death God Seal he learned it From Minato. 



> He didnt say how much or how great his control was. And again, he had more bodies.


Being able to control it now implies he is able to control it; not that he has very flimsy control. And Yes More Bodies and which bodies he has is a Major deal. If Oro had Kabuto's Tensi he would be higher on the list as well. 



> Kabuto with two of oro's abilties and weaker bodies vs oro and the strongest on the naruto verse....
> 
> ORO.


Sandaime nearly took out Oro and his Tensi; If you really think he can do better against Kabuto; Tensi, Itachi, Nagato, Sasori, Kazuku, and Dedaria i don't know what to say.



> But he has to realize he is in a genjutsu to break out. And under shuisi's eye genjutsu, you don't.


Does he have to realize he is under a Genjutsu or does Hachibi? The reason why Sandaime Mizukage probably couldn't break out was because his Bijuu was moronic; Hachibi is quite intelligent and would realize Bee was in a Genjutsu if Danzo used Shishui's Genjutsu to make Bee do something substantial that could loose him the match especially since Hachibi has knowledge on Sharigan and its Genjutsu capabilities.



> He hasn't but Madara stated he could. Similar to you Kabuto thing


Madara said Danzo had the tools necessary to control the Kyuubi; Having the tools does not mean he can use them effectively enough to do so and even then it may apply only to the Kyuubi and not to the Hachibi considering Sharigan was part of the equation and so far Sharigan could only control Kyuubi. 



> Sharigans can copy movement, predict moves, and all that haxxed crap.


That didn't seem to help Sasuke out one bit 



> Wind release powered up by Baku could easily beat the hachibi.


Really; To me it seems like as soon as Baku's suction began Hachibi would just nuke it with Chakra Cannon.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

Deidara was certainly trolled in that fight. A low on chakra Sasuke manged to summon Manda and escape the explosion that would have killed him if it wasn't for Plot.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Yes so an IC deidara would play with Kisame and get himself killed.



Kisame has a Sharingan? Deidara has a grudge? 

Deidara didn't even play around with Kakashi, so spare me


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> -Their Kekkei Genkai is part of their Fighting Ability in my opinion; If this list left out Kekkei Genkai powers then my list would be much different



So in a fight against Hiruzen, he could use the buji and thats all fair? No thats an outside force. 



> -Hiruzen did not invent the Death God Seal he learned it From Minato.



But even in his old age, he was able to master it.




> Being able to control it now implies he is able to control it; not that he has very flimsy control. And Yes More Bodies and which bodies he has is a Major deal. If Oro had Kabuto's Tensi he would be higher on the list as well.



But how much is it?






> Sandaime nearly took out Oro and his Tensi; If you really think he can do better against Kabuto; Tensi, Itachi, Nagato, Sasori, Kazuku, and Dedaria i don't know what to say.



But think about it. If Hashirama and TObirama got that much of a power decrease, imagine what it would have down against someone who is weaker. 




> Does he have to realize he is under a Genjutsu or does Hachibi? The reason why Sandaime Mizukage probably couldn't break out was because his Bijuu was moronic; Hachibi is quite intelligent and would realize Bee was in a Genjutsu if Danzo used Shishui's Genjutsu to make Bee do something substantial that could loose him the match especially since Hachibi has knowledge on Sharigan and its Genjutsu capabilities.



Probably is not a good word... in the battledome. And sayign his buji was moronic is not a very good statement to use.

Teh Hachibi must realize it. 




> Madara said Danzo had the tools necessary to control the Kyuubi; Having the tools does not mean he can use them effectively enough to do so and even then it may apply only to the Kyuubi and not to the Hachibi considering Sharigan was part of the equation and so far Sharigan could only control Kyuubi.



Danzo is highly intelligent and has knowledge on many Leaf ninja. He sure as hell can use it. But wood release has shown to control the other buji like the hachibi as well.




> Really; To me it seems like as soon as Baku's suction began Hachibi would just nuke it with Chakra Cannon.



Chakra cannon takes a lot of time to create. And the suction restricts movement. Then Danzo spams wind.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kisame has a Sharingan? Deidara has a grudge?
> 
> Deidara didn't even play around with Kakashi, so spare me



Deidara was RUNNING from Kakashi, not figthing him.

No, but he fooled around with Gaara too.


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## tigersage (May 31, 2010)

note my list is not in order i am just listing who i think are the top 20 most powerful people in naruto.

1) j man
2)naruto
3) gai
4) lee
5) kakashi
6) tsunade
7) kimimaro
8) neji
9) shino
10)kiba
11) itachi
12) yamato
13) bee
14)raikage
15)ao
16) kisame
17) minato
18)hiruzen
19) gaara
20) asuma


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> And everything Sasori has originates from the poison. Deidara has great variety with that technique


Really; because i'm pretty sure that aside from Poison Weaponry and Poisoned Traps, Sasori also has the very deadly power over Saitetsu. 



> That doesn't tell you anything. Just 'chakra's around.' Does it tell you to hold your breath? What C4 is? No, not even a dOjutsu does that


Yet its pretty obvious what C4 does once some one detects it from Dedaria's fighting style 99% revolving around explosives entirely; Yet another one of his problems being a one trick pony.



> He used one Doton for travel.
> And okay, Suiton and Samehada. Two trick pony?


Suiton, Samehada, and High Level at Taijutsu/Close Combat. Two - Three Trick Pony better then 1 Trick Pony anyway. Lets also keep in mind that Dedaria went all out and Kisame has yet to go all out



> That's not Deidara's full range, not by far. He also can't see it coming.


Sure Dedaria could use a higher range, but if he refuses to do so every time he fights then thats his problem. 



> Kisame is not that durable. What he has is regeneration, there's a difference.
> He also hurts against Deidara due to explosions. And he's blocking WITH Samehada and it doesn't always cover him.


I'm not talking about Kisame vs Dedaria; As i said Dedaria is probably Kisame's worst match up. I'm saying Kisame has an excellent defense, which he does. 



> What part of his speed aren't you taking into consideration? Speed is defense. Evasion is defensive. Kisame can block with Samehada, Deidara can dodge most anything. And he can do it while prepping C4.


Dedaria hasn't shown the ability to dodge most anything though; Even characters bellow his level seem to posses techniques that Dedaria struggles with or can't dodge.



> I just think Kisame's gotten insanely overrated. He can stay out of Kisame's range and if he uses C4 right off against a threat he perceives, that's it.


Well Yeah if thats how Dedaria fought flying up to utmost range right off the bat and then releasing C4 bombs one after another i would rate him much higher, but he simply doesn't fight that way in the manga. 



> The Sanbi Host, like Bee, had full control of the beast and direct comparisons are drawn to what happened to Yagura and Shisui's power


1)Madara FAR > Shishui

2)Does he have to realize he is under a Genjutsu or does Hachibi? The reason why Sandaime Mizukage probably couldn't break out was because his Bijuu was moronic; Hachibi is quite intelligent and would realize Bee was in a Genjutsu if Danzo used Shishui's Genjutsu to make Bee do something substantial that could loose him the match especially since Hachibi has knowledge on Sharigan and its Genjutsu capabilities.


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## LegendaryBeauty (May 31, 2010)

tigersage said:


> note my list is not in order i am just listing who i think are the top 20 most powerful people in naruto.
> 
> 1) j man
> 2)naruto
> ...



Are you serious?


----------



## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Deidara was RUNNING from Kakashi, not figthing him.


My point exactly.



> No, but he fooled around with Gaara too.


He had a plan and beat Gaara

Kisame is older, Didara tends to take older opponents seriously now. He has no grudge against Kisame and knows he's dangerous. Ergo...


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

tigersage said:


> note my list is not in order i am just listing who i think are the top 20 most powerful people in naruto.
> 
> 1) j man
> 2)naruto
> ...



Even though its not in order, I can think of better replacements for half of these.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

tigersage said:


> note my list is not in order i am just listing who i think are the top 20 most powerful people in naruto.
> 
> 1) j man
> 2)naruto
> ...



Lee? Neji? Asuma? Ao? Neji? Shino? Kiba? Yamato? Kimimaro?

REALLY?

What about:

Deidara, Sasoir, NAGATO, Madara, Minato, Hashirama, Onoki, Danzo etc.


I would say this is part 1 but bee is not part 1.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Really; because i'm pretty sure that aside from Poison Weaponry and Poisoned Traps, Sasori also has the very deadly power over Saitetsu.


All comes down to poison, doesn't it?
Same with Deidara's bombs. You're ignoring things you don't like.




> Yet its pretty obvious what C4 does once some one detects it from Dedaria's fighting style 99% revolving around explosives entirely; Yet another one of his problems being a one trick pony.


No, it isn't. Sasuke could see it and had no idea what it is unless he saw it after inhaling it. 
You sense it, you don't know not to breathe. You just know there's chakra around. You still die.
Especially given the fast spread of the cloud. Stop making things up to downplay him already.




> Suiton, Samehada, and High Level at Taijutsu/Close Combat. Two - Three Trick Pony better then 1 Trick Pony anyway. Lets also keep in mind that Dedaria went all out and Kisame has yet to go all out


Unless Kisame has something massive and huge to show, then we can judge him here just fine.
And if that one trick is a good one, it's better.
Deidara can shape his bombs any way he likes. has mines that most will be crushed by, and C4 alone? Three tricks alone.
Let alone C3



> Sure Dedaria could use a higher range, but if he refuses to do so every time he fights then thats his problem.


He only stayed just out of range with Sasuke. He tries to fight outside of his opponents' range besides



> I'm not talking about Kisame vs Dedaria; As i said Dedaria is probably Kisame's worst match up. I'm saying Kisame has an excellent defense, which he does.


And Deidara has excellent evasion, which IS his defense.



> Dedaria hasn't shown the ability to dodge most anything though; Even characters bellow his level seem to posses techniques that Dedaria struggles with or can't dodge.


He dodged Sasuke's shunshin, dodged Gaara's sand, dodged freaking Team Gai...
He's got a higher speed rating than Kisame to boot. 
Against a grounded enemy like Kisame and 99 percent of the verse, he's got the advantage there.



> Well Yeah if thats how Dedaria fought flying up to utmost range right off the bat and then releasing C4 bombs one after another i would rate him much higher, but he simply doesn't fight that way in the manga.


He didn't against Sasuke. And he had to take Gaara and Naruto alive. He had the right idea against Team Gai with his exploding clone. 
Are we measuring what they're capable of or not with power?
Deidara's shown ICly, he goes to the limits of his opponents' ranges and takes them out. Against a high level enemy, he'd release C4.



> 1)Madara FAR > Shishui
> 
> 2)Does he have to realize he is under a Genjutsu or does Hachibi? The reason why Sandaime Mizukage probably couldn't break out was because his Bijuu was moronic; Hachibi is quite intelligent and would realize Bee was in a Genjutsu if Danzo used Shishui's Genjutsu to make Bee do something substantial that could loose him the match especially since Hachibi has knowledge on Sharigan and its Genjutsu capabilities.



It was stated without a Host, the Sanbi was a moron. No idea how the Hachibi'd be outside of Bee. Remember he had to tame it. 

And we have no idea if Madara's current Genjutsu>Shisui, or if he was using his own eye as opposed to Shisui's other or something before Danzo got it.

Bee states clearly genjutsu won't work on someone who can control their beast, but Madara's apparently shown it wrong.


----------



## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> So in a fight against Hiruzen, he could use the buji and thats all fair? No thats an outside force.


I'm counting it as fair as its part of their abilities. Just like Summons are for J-man, Oro, etc...



> But even in his old age, he was able to master it.


The fact that the best Jutsu Sarutobi has shown in the manga being one he learned from Minato speaks volumes i think. 



> But how much is it?


There was never an amount placed on it; that means if Kabuto says he can control it it means he can control all of it. 



> But think about it. If Hashirama and TObirama got that much of a power decrease, imagine what it would have down against someone who is weaker.


Hashirma and Tobirama didn't get a power decrease they simply didn't have access to the powers that made them famous in life; Like Bijuu, Special Scrolls/Weapons, and Edo Tensi



> Probably is not a good word... in the battledome. And sayign his buji was moronic is not a very good statement to use.
> 
> Teh Hachibi must realize it.


The Sanbi is Moronic it was shown to be a mindless Beast; Hachibi was shown to be quite intelligent. The Hachibi would realize it unless the command was something very minor(in which case it wouldn't matter anyway)



> Danzo is highly intelligent and has knowledge on many Leaf ninja. He sure as hell can use it. But wood release has shown to control the other buji like the hachibi as well.


What does Knowledge have to do with having the ability to actually use it and Wood Release alone has not shown that power only when used in conjunction with another Technique and Shodai's special Chakra Crystal have people who implanted Shodai's genes had the potential to surpress and not control a Bijuu. 



> Chakra cannon takes a lot of time to create. And the suction restricts movement. Then Danzo spams wind.


Chakra Cannon does not take that much time to create; By the time Danzo got behind Killer Bee to use his Fuuton technique the Chakra Cannon would already be released on Baku. Not to mention if Bee is in V2 he can just let himself be sucked in by Baku and rip him apart from the inside out. Hell Hachibi could do the same thing just let himself be sucked in by baku(If baku could even suck in something as massive as the Hachibi) and then once he is in close range strangle Baku to death with Tentacles.

The Baku Combo isn't working.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

And Turrin, how does Kisame usually fight against...everyone? Did he go all out against anyone but Bee?


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

Note: Some, like tier three are interchangeable. I did not include those with no feats or real hype like Prime Hiruzen, Tobirama, Hanzo, Yagura, or Sakumo. Honestly, if Tsunade or A had the feats I'm thinking they should have, they would easily make Tier 3. Same with Kisame, it's just he has feats already. I was also stuck on whether or not to put A, Tsunade and Kakashi on the same level as current Naruto, Sasori, and Kisame etc, so I just gave them their own tier to show they are stronger then Garra and Kakuzu. Really they could make either tier, I just couldn't choose which one.

_*Tier 1: *
1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara (Prime)

*Tier 2:*
3. Yakushi Kabuto
4. Rikudou Pain
5. Namikaze Minato

*Tier 3:*
6. Hermit Jiraiya
7. Killer Bee 
8. Uchiha Itachi
9. Edo Orochimaru 
10. Shimura Danzo

*Tier 4:*
11. Hoshigaki Kisame
12/13. Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke (No EMS, or Kyuubi Control)
14. Akasuna no Sasori

*Tier 5:* 
15. Deidara
16. 4th Raikage (Until Further Feats)
17/18. Hatake Kakashi/Tsunade (Until Further Feats)

*Tier 6:*
19. Kakuzu
20. Sabaku no Gaara_


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> I'm counting it as fair as its part of their abilities. Just like Summons are for J-man, Oro, etc...[/QUOTE
> 
> Yes except they are not summonings. But merely an extra out side force they can control.
> It has no relfection on Hashirama's actually combat abiltiy.
> ...



the Baku combo is working.


@SANBI- Oro>Danzo? NOPE!




Good Nite yal. I will debate more tomorrow.


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## Thunder (May 31, 2010)

The Hacibi did show intelligence. It was even rational enough to try and talk Bee into training Naruto. Sanbi was not intelligent at all. It could even be that more tails equals higher intelligence when it comes to Bijuu, but that's just speculation.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> All comes down to poison, doesn't it?
> Same with Deidara's bombs. You're ignoring things you don't like.


How does it all come down to Poison? Satetsu even w/o the Poison would still be an incredibly lethal weapon, its what made the Sandaime Kazekage the strongest of all Kazekage. In-fact Sasori has a-lot of Weapons that would be lethal w/o Poison. Poison is just the icing on the cake.

I think your ignoring things you don't like.



> No, it isn't. Sasuke could see it and had no idea what it is unless he saw it after inhaling it.
> You sense it, you don't know not to breathe. You just know there's chakra around. You still die.
> Especially given the fast spread of the cloud. Stop making things up to downplay him already.


Yes Sasuke did know to avoid it by just detecting it; Thats how he avoided the first C4 w/o ingesting it. 



> Unless Kisame has something massive and huge to show, then we can judge him here just fine.
> And if that one trick is a good one, it's better.
> Deidara can shape his bombs any way he likes. has mines that most will be crushed by, and C4 alone? Three tricks alone.
> Let alone C3


Kisame probably does have something else big to show or else kishimoto wouldn't have kept him around. 

But yeah i don't think Kibaku Nendo is better then Kisame's Suiton ability, his Doton, his Taijutsu ability, and his Samehada ability combined.



> *He only stayed just out of range* with Sasuke. He tries to fight outside of his opponents' range besides


Yeah exactly he stayed just outside of sasuke's range by like a few extra meters; Which gives a-lot of people the option to use things to increase their range like Summons, KB, Train changing jutsu, or hell Dedaira might not even estimate their range properly not knowing they have yet another longer range technique. 



> And Deidara has excellent evasion, which IS his defense.


Except people even bellow his level have overcome his evasion. 



> He dodged Sasuke's shunshin, dodged Gaara's sand, dodged freaking Team Gai...
> He's got a higher speed rating than Kisame to boot.
> Against a grounded enemy like Kisame and 99 percent of the verse, he's got the advantage there.


He dodge against Sasuke because Tobi helped him; He did not dodge Garaa's Sand he had his arm ripped off; And i would love to see him dodge Gated Lee or Gai or hell even evade Team gai for more then 2-3 panels. 



> He didn't against Sasuke. And he had to take Gaara and Naruto alive. He had the right idea against Team Gai with his exploding clone.
> Are we measuring what they're capable of or not with power?
> Deidara's shown ICly, he goes to the limits of his opponents' ranges and takes them out. Against a high level enemy, he'd release C4.


I'm measuring them based on their performances and how they fight in the manga cannon; I'm not measuring them on how well Dedaria would perform when having his actions controlled by Lightysnake who has full knowledge of the other characters while those characters are fighting IC like they would in the manga. 



> It was stated without a Host, the Sanbi was a moron. No idea how the Hachibi'd be outside of Bee. Remember he had to tame it.
> 
> And we have no idea if Madara's current Genjutsu>Shisui, or if he was using his own eye as opposed to Shisui's other or something before Danzo got it.
> 
> Bee states clearly genjutsu won't work on someone who can control their beast, but Madara's apparently shown it wrong.


Again you simply can't say well because Madara was able to do it against the Sanbi Jin that Danzo would be able to do it against the Hachibi jin; it doesn't work that way.


----------



## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

With Killer bee, hachibi was intelligent. Without, he was just another rampaging beast.

he is just more rational.


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

I am very intelligent 

Yeah, Unrestricted Oro, Hashirama, Tobirama and another Edo Tensei body are a bit higher imo, but like I said tier three is very interchangeable. Kirabi, Jiraiya, Itachi, Danzo and Oro are very close in level. Kisame, Tsunade and A are too imo, they just don't have the feats


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

But Orochimaru OVER Danzo? Thats crazy talk!


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

Do you know what interchangeable means?


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Yes.... I do. (thank you dictionary.com JK)


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> Yes except they are not summonings. But merely an extra out side force they can control.
> It has no relfection on Hashirama's actually combat abiltiy.


Thats the same thing as a summoning



> Or the fact that his other jutsu dominated the field. fact is it came down to the jutsu minato created.


Again his most impressive Jutsu is one he copied off of Minato; What does that say to you. 



> Thats an assumption. He meant he can control whatever he got from Oro.


I'm just going to say we'll see whose right about this. 



> which is another reason why Hiruzen>them.


Hiruzen is > then them w/o those things; no one is disputing that. Also Hiruzen is likely  > Nindaime period since he was stated capable of beating Oro with Tensi.



> All buji have shown to be stupid without hosts.


That doens't mean Sanbi is suddenly intelligent when he is inside a host.



> You said he had the abilty to just not the knowledge to and I said he did.


No i said he had the tools, but we don't know if he had the ability. 



> to create one that could kill Baku, it would need time to charge


He could use one a 5th the size he used against team taka to kill Baku; and it didn't take him long at all to charge the one against Baku. 



> He doesn't need to be behind killer bee. He can spam in from whereever he is.


For the Combo to work he has to be behind Bee. 



> It also immobilizes him don't forget.


Or as i said he can just let the dam elephant draw him into close range and then see how quickly he can WTFPWN Baku at such a close range in ether V2 or Full Hachibi mode



> With Killer bee, hachibi was intelligent. Without, he was just another rampaging beast.


There was nothing that says Hachibi was unintelligent; It could have just gone on rampages because you know it used to be an asshole like how Kyuubi is now.


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## Immortal (May 31, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Note: Some, like tier three are interchangeable. I did not include those with no feats or real hype like Prime Hiruzen, Tobirama, Hanzo, Yagura, or Sakumo. Honestly, if Tsunade or A had the feats I'm thinking they should have, they would easily make Tier 3. Same with Kisame, it's just he has feats already. I was also stuck on whether or not to put A, Tsunade and Kakashi on the same level as current Naruto, Sasori, and Kisame etc, so I just gave them their own tier to show they are stronger then Garra and Kakuzu. Really they could make either tier, I just couldn't choose which one.
> 
> _*Tier 1: *
> 1. Senju Hashirama
> ...



I like this list a lot. You're tiers are separated very well, although I could argue some of the actual rankings inside of the tiers. I also think that Itachi is tier 2, but this is one of my favorite lists so far.


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## Big Mom (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Thats the same thing as a summoning



not really. Hashirama forced contorl over buji, not a contract.



> Again his most impressive Jutsu is one he copied off of Minato; What does that say to you.



That he mastered ever jutsu...



> I'm just going to say we'll see whose right about this.



k




> Hiruzen is > then them w/o those things; no one is disputing that. Also Hiruzen is likely  > Nindaime period since he was stated capable of beating Oro with Tensi.



So hiruzen >?




> That doens't mean Sanbi is suddenly intelligent when he is inside a host.



But it stops its rampage.




> No i said he had the tools, but we don't know if he had the ability.



k



> He could use one a 5th the size he used against team taka to kill Baku; and it didn't take him long at all to charge the one against Baku.


 Taka dodged why can't baku?



> For the Combo to work he has to be behind Bee.


 says who?




> Or as i said he can just let the dam elephant draw him into close range and then see how quickly he can WTFPWN Baku at such a close range in ether V2 or Full Hachibi mode



or he can end it before he gets close.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> How does it all come down to Poison? Satetsu even w/o the Poison would still be an incredibly lethal weapon, its what made the Sandaime Kazekage the strongest of all Kazekage. In-fact Sasori has a-lot of Weapons that would be lethal w/o Poison. Poison is just the icing on the cake.


And? Sasori's fighting style revolves around poison. Deidara's is explosions. Sasori's failed hard when the poison was taken out of the equation



> I think your ignoring things you don't like.
> 
> 
> Yes Sasuke did know to avoid it by just detecting it; Thats how he avoided the first C4 w/o ingesting it.


Like the second time? And he SAW it, there's a difference. And he could fly



> Kisame probably does have something else big to show or else kishimoto wouldn't have kept him around.


Sacrifical lamb to naruto's new abilities. 



> But yeah i don't think Kibaku Nendo is better then Kisame's Suiton ability, his Doton, his Taijutsu ability, and his Samehada ability combined.


Depends on how it's used. Kisame has one Doton for...transportation. Samehada is part of his Taijutsu. 
It's definitely better against certain opponents



> Yeah exactly he stayed just outside of sasuke's range by like a few extra meters; Which gives a-lot of people the option to use things to increase their range like Summons, KB, Train changing jutsu, or hell Dedaira might not even estimate their range properly not knowing they have yet another longer range technique.


Says who? Deidara's an extremely smart opponent. Kisame is not. Deidara can also just increase the range if he feels it necessary, while attacking.



> Except people even bellow his level have overcome his evasion.


Such as when...



> He dodge against Sasuke because Tobi helped him; He did not dodge Garaa's Sand he had his arm ripped off; And i would love to see him dodge Gated Lee or Gai or hell even evade Team gai for more then 2-3 panels.


No, he dodged against Sasuke's shunshin the first time without Tobi. The second time, Tobi DISTRACTED him by claiming to be in danger, diverting him. Then Tobi warned him. So Tobi helped him from a situation Tobi put him in. He only failed against Gaara's sand when he had to leap off the bird and escaped it. And won. He dodged the sand before that just fine.

Kisame didn;t avoid Gate Gai either. And Deidara evaded Team Gai just fine when far from his best



> I'm measuring them based on their performances and how they fight in the manga cannon; I'm not measuring them on how well Dedaria would perform when having his actions controlled by Lightysnake who has full knowledge of the other characters while those characters are fighting IC like they would in the manga.


So then Kisame's usual strategy of playing around and charging head first in?



> Again you simply can't say well because Madara was able to do it against the Sanbi Jin that Danzo would be able to do it against the Hachibi jin; it doesn't work that way.


We know there's a link between the powers. Why should Bee be given special immunity here?


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

I'm really shocked at how low Sasori is ranking on some of these lists despite him usually having a good track record of beating a-lot of the people he is bellow on some of these lists; It seems like he is quite underrated here.


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

I'd imagine while inside Yagura, the Sanbi would be pretty intelligent, just like how the Hachibi calmed down after getting put inside Kirabi.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> not really. Hashirama forced contorl over buji, not a contract.


If anything forced control is more valid then a contract. Anyway your not going to convince me this isn't their power; So i suggest you drop it. At the very least you should be able to understand why i see them as more impressive considering i'm going the Tailed beasts as their power. 



> That he mastered ever jutsu...


I believe the actual trans is that he knows every Jutsu; Since obviously mastering every jutsu makes no sense when he doesn't have the Hidden Bloodlines present in the leaf. 



> So hiruzen >?


Hiruzen(Prime) > Oro + Tensi Nindaime and Shodai; Hiruzen is Probably Also > Nindaime + Tensi, and is > Shodai w/o Bijuu and Special Scrolls.

Shodai with Bijuu and Specials Scrolls/Weapons > Hiruzen(From what we have seen/been told thus far). 



> But it stops its rampage.


I don't know what this means. Of course it stops its rampage when its sealed. 



> Taka dodged why can't baku?


Taka wasn't the intended target it was Suigetsu, but beyond that Baku doesn't nearly have the speed feats that Taka has its ridiculous to suggest it could doge. 



> says who?


The Manga. The Way the combo works is Baku's suction enhances Danzo' Fuuton; it can't do that from any angle but the back. 



> or he can end it before he gets close.


How? V2 Bee is faster then Danzo plus it has the speed increase of Baku Sucking it in. Full Hachibi because of its size and Baku sucking it in can probably clear that distance faster then danzo.


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> I'd imagine while inside Yagura, the Sanbi would be pretty intelligent, just like how the Hachibi calmed down after getting put inside Kirabi.


Hachibi was inside a Jin when it went on Rampages; It calmed down when Bee learned to control it. There is really nothing that says Hachibi wasn't intelligent before hand; It was just an asshole like the Kyuubi.


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

Who's to say it wasn't the same for the Sanbi?


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> And? Sasori's fighting style revolves around poison. Deidara's is explosions. Sasori's failed hard when the poison was taken out of the equation


Sasori's fighting styles does not totally revolve around the poison; that is just an extra level of danger in facing Sasori. 



> Like the second time? And he SAW it, there's a difference. And he could fly


This has nothing to with what i said. 



> Sacrifical lamb to naruto's new abilities.


Possibly, but if he is even able to last 2-3 chapters against Naruto after he gains full Kyuubi control that will make Dedaria look like crap in comparison. 



> Depends on how it's used. Kisame has one Doton for...transportation. Samehada is part of his Taijutsu.
> It's definitely better against certain opponents


Matter of opinion i suppose. 



> Says who? Deidara's an extremely smart opponent. Kisame is not. Deidara can also just increase the range if he feels it necessary, while attacking.


Says the manga; Sasuke being able to increase his range by a few meters was enough to easily land an attack on Dedaria and send his C2 dragon crashing to the ground. 

Now imagine what would happen if Dedaria was up against Jiraiya and assumed the length his Wild Lions mane could stretch was Jiriaya's max range and then Jiriaya released a Gamma Yuedan on his ass; Bye Bye Dedaria. 



> Such as when...


Garaa, Kakashi, and Hebi Sasuke. Basically everyone Dedaira has ever fought was able to overcome his evasion w/o much difficulty. 



> No, he dodged against Sasuke's shunshin the first time without Tobi. The second time, Tobi DISTRACTED him by claiming to be in danger, diverting him. Then Tobi warned him. So Tobi helped him from a situation Tobi put him in. He only failed against Gaara's sand when he had to leap off the bird and escaped it. And won. He dodged the sand before that just fine.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> Sasuke wasn't aiming for Dedaria the first time he was aiming for Tobi; And i don't think Tobi distracted him and if he did that is once again Dedaria own dam fault for being distracted and lets not forget Dedaria had to damage himself to evade.
> ...


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

> Who's to say it wasn't the same for the Sanbi?


Okay though it would be totally nonsensical this is Kishimot so i will give you the benefit of the doubt; however we have been shown their are vastly different levels of intelligence between Bijuu; Shukaku is fucking retard and crazy. Nibi seemed like a rampaging beast.

So once again i ask how can anyone claim that Sanbi while sealed would be as intelligent as the Hachibi?


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## Sanbi (May 31, 2010)

Do you really think Yagura could control the Sanbi fully without the Sanbi having some level of intelligence beneath the rampaging beast. I'm not saying he would be as intelligent as the Hachibi, just he wouldn't be stupid if tamed.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Sasori's fighting styles does not totally revolve around the poison; that is just an extra level of danger in facing Sasori.


No, that was his whole style. That's how they best him, practically. The antidote. Sasori aimed at merely scratching there largely



> This has nothing to with what i said.


It kind of does. sensing is not the same as seeing. And Sasuke evaded it via flight




> Possibly, but if he is even able to last 2-3 chapters against Naruto after he gains full Kyuubi control that will make Dedaria look like crap in comparison.


Depends how he does it. If he uses the same tactics he did against Bee, then he's not doing anything we didn't know. 



> Matter of opinion i suppose.
> 
> 
> Says the manga; Sasuke being able to increase his range by a few meters was enough to easily land an attack on Dedaria and send his C2 dragon crashing to the ground.


Sasuke with flight and a specific raiton weapon, sure. And it wouldn't have worked if not for the mines and shurikens



> Now imagine what would happen if Dedaria was up against Jiraiya and assumed the length his Wild Lions mane could stretch was Jiriaya's max range and then Jiriaya released a Gamma Yuedan on his ass; Bye Bye Dedaria.


First Jiraiya has to summon Bunta. And we can't assume Deidara'd just play around there now could we?



> Garaa, Kakashi, and Hebi Sasuke. Basically everyone Dedaira has ever fought was able to overcome his evasion w/o much difficulty.


Against Gaara he easily tricked him and had to evade a whole desert.
Against Kakashi..yeah, he actually evaded the second Kamui. And how the hell is Kamui a fair representation? Sasuke had Raiton and long ranged attacks to boot. Not only that, but Gai got around it? Kyuubi Naruto? 




> Sasuke wasn't aiming for Dedaria the first time he was aiming for Tobi; And i don't think Tobi distracted him and if he did that is once again Dedaria own dam fault for being distracted and lets not forget Dedaria had to damage himself to evade.



Who's in front? Deidara

Deidara dodges before Sasuke even slashes

And hey, Sasuke slashed through where Deidara'd be first.


Deidara is only distracted because he thinks his partner's in danger-how is this a problem in one on one fights?


Deidara after the explosion. How was he damaged Oh, no, wait, he wasn't.



> Garaa did catch him with his sand; thee end[/Quot]e
> As Deidara said? Exactly as he planned.
> Gaara only caught him when he was off the bird besides. On it, he was evading a desert and gourd sand just fine
> 
> ...


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## Turrin (May 31, 2010)

@Lightysnake 
I think your overestimating Dedaria a bit, but i don't feel like getting into an even more prolonged debate when the position you think i should have Dedaria on my list is not the significantly different then where i have Dedaria now; I even think i'm going to move him up to Raikage's level.

So yeah lets just leave at a small difference in opinion



> Except Bee won't know he's being controlled, will he?


The Hachibi will if Danzo makes Bee do anything OOC.


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## Lightysnake (May 31, 2010)

Alright. At least you acknowledge he could beat Kisame, which is fair.

The thing ina  fight, though. Danzo can activate mind control at just the wrong time. He throws a fuuton...he can make Bee 'forget' to dodge and be sliced in two.


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## choperman (May 31, 2010)

*#1 ROCK LEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2010)

> Alright. At least you acknowledge he could beat Kisame, which is fair.
> 
> The thing ina fight, though. Danzo can activate mind control at just the wrong time. He throws a fuuton...he can make Bee 'forget' to dodge and be sliced in two.



-K cool

-I would think if Hachibi saw a Fuuton coming at Bee and Bee was just standing there he would know Bee is in a Genjutsu and break him out; Then With Bee's level of Shunshin i think he could still high tale it out of there in time. Also this would only work if Danzo used his higher level Fuuton because Bee tanked Chidori and it would also only work if Bee wasn't in his Tailed forms or he could Tank Danzo's Fuuton

So the timing, Range, and attack would all have to be just perfect for Danzo to accomplish this and i really don't see it happening unless Danzo has Full Knowledge of Killer Bee's Abilities and time to think up a Strategy before hand.


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## Nagatorinnegan (Jun 1, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> @ nagatoRinnegan Okay, I few things I would change-I would put Hidan and Kakashi a little lower, Minato above Jiraiya, and add in some key characters you forget. Danzo, Bee, Tsunade and Raikage to name a few.



yes i forgot that



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Fix your list nagatoRinnegan.
> 
> 1) Hiruzen prime
> 2) Hashirama/Onoki
> ...


 
madara isnt rin


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## Big Mom (Jun 1, 2010)

Nagtorinnegan- Are you for realz? Rin is clearly madara.


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## propooper98 (Jun 1, 2010)

@Hiruzen. I really disagree with Bee's position- he pwned Sauske- admit Sauske has gotten stronger, but bee still in 15th position??


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## Big Mom (Jun 1, 2010)

But Danzo below/the same as Killer bee?


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2010)

> But Danzo below/the same as Killer bee?


Killer Bee is Stronger then Danzo; Bee could potentially take out Danzo in Base Mode; before Danzo even gets a chance to undo the seal on his arm and activate Izanagi. Even after Danzo activates Izanagi the only thing that would cause trouble for even Base Bee would be the Combo with Baku; But even then all Bee has to do is let Baku Draw him in and then Activate V2 and rip Baku Apart in close range before Danzo gets a chance to complete the Combo.

As i have already Discussed Shishui's Genjutsu is hardly confirmed to work on Jin of Bee's level as the comparison between Bee/Danzo and Yagura/Madara is flawed on two counts. 

Bee is so much stronger then Danzo its a very real possibility that he could take this battle in Base and even if it gets Drawn out he would w/o a doubt take it in V2 w/o getting any Damage and with Chakra to spare.


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## Big Mom (Jun 1, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Killer Bee is Stronger then Danzo; Bee could potentially take out Danzo in Base Mode; before Danzo even gets a chance to undo the seal on his arm and activate Izanagi. Even after Danzo activates Izanagi the only thing that would cause trouble for even Base Bee would be the Combo with Baku; But even then all Bee has to do is let Baku Draw him in and then Activate V2 and rip Baku Apart in close range before Danzo gets a chance to complete the Combo.
> 
> As i have already Discussed Shishui's Genjutsu is hardly confirmed to work on Jin of Bee's level as the comparison between Bee/Danzo and Yagura/Madara is flawed on two counts.
> 
> Bee is so much stronger then Danzo its a very real possibility that he could take this battle in Base and even if it gets Drawn out he would w/o a doubt take it in V2 w/o getting any Damage and with Chakra to spare.



First of all lets brake it down:

NInjutsu-

Danzo has shown more potential. He also has teh elemental advantage. His ninjutsu also gets an power-up from Baku.

Taijutsu- Though Danzo is skilled with a sword, Bee takes this. Bee has superior strength, speed, and tai. 

+1- danzo
+1- Bee

Genjutsu- Bee has immuntiy to genjutsu, but not self-inflicted and unawareaflicted genjutsu. And I don't think bee has even shown gen.

+1 Danzo.

Stamina- Bee clearly has more chakra though Izanagi boosts Danzo's stamina or aability to last in combat.

+1 Bee
+1 Danzo

Put it all together-


Danzo-

Danzo's wind jutsu can easily counter act any of Bee's ninjutsu(minus menacing ball). Wind>lightning still. He also can keep Bee at bay to help him avoid going into taijutsu. Danzo also has the abiltiy of Izanagi which grants him multiple lives and his warping abiltiy helps with escaping foes. In base and V2 Danzo can still win though Hachibi is something else. 

Hachibi is powerful, and big. His menacing ball can easily destroy all things in its path. 

Baku can imobilize Hachibi and then it powers-up Danzo's wind and thus Danzo can hurt/damage HAchibi. The wind blades not only are strong, but they have the cutting power. Eventually, on top of Izanagi, Danzo will take his toll on Bee.

You are forgetting sneak attacks. Don't forget that Sasuke was able to tank some of Bee's hits(he got hit by most but still survived and was on his feet). Danzo basically has this tanking abiltiy and Izanagi. He can survive many hits of bees but eventually will die. But Izanagi will save him.


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## Smiley (Jun 1, 2010)

Why Is Danzo So Overated ? Same As KB ? Oh Please.


And Hiruzen Sarutobi Madara Is Not Rin. He Was Born Like 80 Years Before Her.


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2010)

> Danzo has shown more potential. He also has teh elemental advantage. His ninjutsu also gets an power-up from Baku.


Are you Counting Hachibi's Tentacles, Chakra Cannon, and Lariate as Ninjutsu; Because all of that is far Superior to anything Danzo has shown in the Ninjutsu department. 



> Taijutsu- Though Danzo is skilled with a sword, Bee takes this. Bee has superior strength, speed, and tai.
> 
> +1- danzo
> +1- Bee


How does Strength, Speed, and Tai only count as one Point

So Really So far its 

+4 Bee
+0 Danzo



> Genjutsu- Bee has immuntiy to genjutsu, but not self-inflicted and unawareaflicted genjutsu. And I don't think bee has even shown gen.
> 
> +1 Danzo.


Yeah of course Danzo is better at Genjutsu; No need to even bring it up

+4 Bee
+1 Danzo



> Stamina- Bee clearly has more chakra though Izanagi boosts Danzo's stamina or aability to last in combat.


Izanagi does not boost stamina; Its a Genjutsu Technique and already has been counted as such; Hence why Danzo wins the Genjutsu department. So yeah Danzo's stamina wasn't shabby by any means but here he is being compared to the 8-Tails Jin

+5 Bee
+1 Danzo



> Danzo's wind jutsu can easily counter act any of Bee's ninjutsu(minus menacing ball).


And Laraite; So Basically Danzo's Wind Can Counter One of Bee's Ninjutsu his Raiton Flow, while it can't counter his Strongest Techniques. 



> He also can keep Bee at bay to help him avoid going into taijutsu.


With what? Bee at the Start of the Battle Shunshin's Behind him with 7 Swords and thats the end of Danzo before he can even undo his Seal



> Danzo also has the abiltiy of Izanagi which grants him multiple lives and his warping abiltiy helps with escaping foes. In base and V2 Danzo can still win though Hachibi is something else.


I'll give it to you that Danzo has a chance of beating Base Bee with High Difficulty.



> Baku can imobilize Hachibi and then it powers-up Danzo's wind and thus Danzo can hurt/damage HAchibi. The wind blades not only are strong, but they have the cutting power. Eventually, on top of Izanagi, Danzo will take his toll on Bee.


Just because Baku can immobilize Sasuke's Incomplete Susano'o does not mean it can immobilize the second strongest Tailed Beast.

Not to mention as i have been saying Dozens of times Bee can just let Baku Draw him in; Close Combat is a Good thing for Bee. 



> You are forgetting sneak attacks. Don't forget that Sasuke was able to tank some of Bee's hits(he got hit by most but still survived and was on his feet).


Sasuke could not tank Bee's Hits; Every Time he was hit he was dealt a Death blow and had to be Saved By Karin or Juugo.



> Danzo basically has this tanking abiltiy and Izanagi. He can survive many hits of bees but eventually will die. But Izanagi will save him.


Yes Danzo will survive for 10-11 minutes then he dies.

Honesty how is Danzo going to even undo his seal for Izanagi though; With Bee attacking him at high speeds with 7 Sword Stance and Shunshin. Base Bee likely takes this and if not as i said Danzo can't do anything to defeat Full Hachibi or V2.


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## Smiley (Jun 1, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi Stop Neg Repping Me Because I Disagree With Your Theory. You've Neg Repped Me 3 Times Now Stop Being Such A Immature Kid, Grow Up.


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## Big Mom (Jun 1, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Are you Counting Hachibi's Tentacles, Chakra Cannon, and Lariate as Ninjutsu; Because all of that is far Superior to anything Danzo has shown in the Ninjutsu department.



Not really. Danzo has shown better usage and how are tenticles ninjutsu?




> How does Strength, Speed, and Tai only count as one Point
> 
> So Really So far its
> 
> ...



They all count as taijutsu.




> Yeah of course Danzo is better at Genjutsu; No need to even bring it up
> 
> +4 Bee
> +1 Danzo


 yes. But its still 2+ danzo
1+ bee


> Izanagi does not boost stamina; Its a Genjutsu Technique and already has been counted as such; Hence why Danzo wins the Genjutsu department. So yeah Danzo's stamina wasn't shabby by any means but here he is being compared to the 8-Tails Jin
> 
> +5 Bee
> +1 Danzo


   Izanagi boosts Danzo abiltiy to survive or stamina. 



> And Laraite; So Basically Danzo's Wind Can Counter One of Bee's Ninjutsu his Raiton Flow, while it can't counter his Strongest Techniques.


 Laraite is still a physcial blow which it coul counter and hurt bee or it cannot.




> With what? Bee at the Start of the Battle Shunshin's Behind him with 7 Swords and thats the end of Danzo before he can even undo his Seal


 who said danzo starts unsealed?




> I'll give it to you that Danzo has a chance of beating Base Bee with High Difficulty.


 as does bee though it seems to me that danzo's is the most likley scenerio to occur.




> Just because Baku can immobilize Sasuke's Incomplete Susano'o does not mean it can immobilize the second strongest Tailed Beast.
> 
> Not to mention as i have been saying Dozens of times Bee can just let Baku Draw him in; Close Combat is a Good thing for Bee.


 I would believe it could granted that they both are very large in size. YEs but Hachibi is not bee. Hachibi is not as good in taijutsu as Bee. Therefore all Hachibi could do from that angle is charge up menacing ball or get close and start to puch him. Either way he gets time to wind slash him.



> Sasuke could not tank Bee's Hits; Every Time he was hit he was dealt a Death blow and had to be Saved By Karin or Juugo.



When Juudo saved him, he still took hits. 




> Yes Danzo will survive for 10-11 minutes then he dies.
> 
> Honesty how is Danzo going to even undo his seal for Izanagi though; With Bee attacking him at high speeds with 7 Sword Stance and Shunshin. Base Bee likely takes this and if not as i said Danzo can't do anything to defeat Full Hachibi or V2.



I thought it was 10 times dieing then izanagi wears off?

Baku can easily survive long enough to unseal him or danzo starts unsealed.





ALSO, KaujiN, read my theory. It is proven Rin is Madara.

Just because you are too foolish to read the theory to which I clearly explained why she is, is not my problem.

Also, I dont remeber all the times i negged you, but you probably deserved it.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 1, 2010)

> Not really. Danzo has shown better usage and how are tenticles ninjutsu?


Danzo has not shown better Usage or Ninjutsu; Then Laraite V1 and V2, Chakra Cannon, and a Bijuu Sized Kwarimi. Being able to summon out the Tentacles in Base is a Technique/Ability of Killer Bee; I don't really know what to classify it as other then Ninjutsu



> They all count as taijutsu.


No they don't; Some one can be incredibly good at Taijutsu, but not too Strong or Fast. For Example See Tsunade. They are all different attributes. 



> Izanagi boosts Danzo abiltiy to survive or stamina.


Ability to survive is not Stamina; For Example Orochimaru has a very high ability to Survive, but he only has average to slight above average Stamina for a Jounnin. Plus its already counted for in the Genjutsu department. 



> Laraite is still a physcial blow which it coul counter and hurt bee or it cannot.


Laraite is a Blow of Chakra and only once through that Chakra does it become Physical; And i would really like to see one of Danzo's Fuuton Counter a V2 Laraite. 



> who said danzo starts unsealed?


Thats my point Danzo starts with his Seal on, which gives Bee an easy win in Base Mode through use of 7 Sword Stance. 



> as does bee though it seems to me that danzo's is the most likley scenerio to occur.


Yes Danzo if he manages to undo the Seal would be the most likely victor against Base Bee; But V1, V2, and Hachibi would beat Danzo



> I would believe it could granted that they both are very large in size. YEs but Hachibi is not bee. Hachibi is not as good in taijutsu as Bee. Therefore all Hachibi could do from that angle is charge up menacing ball or get close and start to puch him. Either way he gets time to wind slash him.


Hachibi is large in Size then Any Summon; I Kind of Doubt Baku's Ability would even Phase Hachibi. 

As for Getting for what he can do once he gets close; Just look at what Hachibi did the Squid in recent chapters. Hachibi would WTFPWN Baku at close range with Sheer Physical Might. 



> When Juudo saved him, he still took hits.


What hits did Sasuke take that weren't lethal; Proof please.



> I thought it was 10 times dieing then izanagi wears off?


No each usage of Izanagi last for 60 Seconds; Danzo has 10 Sharigan he uses for Izanag, thats 10 minutes. He can also opt to use Shishui's eye for another Izanagi making it 11 Minutes. 



> Baku can easily survive long enough to unseal him


Alright i'll bite; Lets Say Danzo actually get the chance to Summon out Baku and is able to release his seal thanks to Baku Distracting Bee. Problem is Baku will be killed off By Bee During this Time, which means Danzo looses one of his Greatest weapons and he is basically screwed with no way to even hope to Damage V2.



> Baku can easily survive long enough to unseal him


So your giving Danzo the unfair advantage of having time to undo his seal before the battle begins. You having to give Danzo this advantage just proves that he is not on par with Killer Bee.


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## Thunder (Jun 1, 2010)

To be honest, I don't see the Baku summon being very successful in restricting the Hachibi. This is the Eight-Tailed beast we are talking about; Its Menacing Ball should do the Baku in.


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## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

I'd see both Kirabi and Danzo around the same level, along with Itachi, Oro, and Jiraiya.


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## Excalibur (Jun 2, 2010)

My updated list.. Top 10 only..

1.Hashirama
2.Madara
3.Nagato
4.Prime Hiruzen
5.Minato/Tobirama(hype)
6.Naruto/Sasuke(current)
7.Killerbee
8.Itachi
9.Jaraiya/Orochimaru
10.Raikage


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> My updated list.. Top 10 only..
> 
> 1.Hashirama
> 2.Madara
> ...



Great list. Only thing I would change is Tobirama's ranking. He certainly isn't on Minato's level.


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## Excalibur (Jun 2, 2010)

I can agree with that.. But he is a kage we just don't have any feats for him and his hype isn't like any of the other hokage's..


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

> I'd see both Kirabi and Danzo around the same level, along with Itachi, Oro, and Jiraiya.


Thing is i don't see how Danzo is on the same level as Killer Bee when Danzo has like Zero Chance of Undoing his seal against Bee. Think About it Bee would do this:


or this:




to Danzo before he even got a chance to unseal his arm and Danzo would get owned by Base Bee.



> To be honest, I don't see the Baku summon being very successful in restricting the Hachibi. This is the Eight-Tailed beast we are talking about; Its Menacing Ball should do the Baku in.


Yeah this is exactly what i'm trying to make Hiruzen see; That Baku would be nothing in the face of Hachibi the Second Strongest Bijuu



> 1.Hashirama
> 2.Madara
> 3.Nagato
> 4.Prime Hiruzen
> ...


Good list though i do think Jiraiya/Orochimaru(At least with Tensi), Itachi, and Killer Bee should all be above Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> I can agree with that.. But he is a kage we just don't have any feats for him and his hype isn't like any of the other hokage's..



Yeah, Tobirama has hype, just not as much as Minato. So far the only thing we know about him is Suitons and Tensei. He is up there, just not on par with Minato. Just my opinion of course.


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## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Thing is i don't see how Danzo is on the same level as Killer Bee when Danzo has like Zero Chance of Undoing his seal against Bee. Think About it Bee would do this:
> 
> 
> or this:
> ...


He still has his Futons, and Shuishi's Sharingan . He could Futon Bee before he has a chance to approach him, or influence him not to do that. While Bee is extremely powerful, Danzo fights smart. He could stall long enough to get the seal undone with Futons. With Izanagi a whole branch of strategies can become reality. Like I said, I'm not directly comparing the two, otherwise some people would be higher then others since they are a good match-up.

It's just Danzo is way to versatile and smart to not get his seal undone.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

> He still has his Futons, and Shuishi's Sharingan . He could Futon Bee before he has a chance to approach him


Bee would dodge it easily; Remember his mountain crossing Shunshin?



> or influence him not to do that.


Hachibi would know somethings up and break him out



> While Bee is extremely powerful, Danzo fights smart. He could stall long enough to get the seal undone with Futons.


How Bee just Shunshin's behind him like he did to Kisame; What can he possibly do then. Bee is just too fast for him and Danzo even with Sharigan can't read his sword work.



> It's just Danzo is way to versatile and smart to not get his seal undone.


I honestly don't see how; The only way i see Danzo even having a small chance at beating Bee is if he had Full Knowledge and Prep-Time, but that alone suggest Bee is a Tier above him. But hell i think Bee is a tier above J-man, Itachi, and Orochi for that matter.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

> Yeah this is exactly what i'm trying to make Hiruzen see; That Baku would be nothing in the face of Hachibi the Second Strongest Bijuu



Indeed; Hachibi can tank any damage the Baku manages to do to Bee and charge his Chakra Ball. He might lose a tentacle or two in the process, but once he is finished the Baku will be disintegrated.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> 1) Hiruzen prime
> 2) Hashirama/Onoki
> 3) tobirama
> 4) Madara/Rin
> ...




This list is so messed up.



And Rin isn't Madara


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## daschysta (Jun 2, 2010)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> oh right from 21-30 mine are
> 21. Kakashi
> 22. Sasori
> 23. Gaara
> ...



Wow. 

Kakashi would rapestomp both juugo and kimimaru. It isn't even close, your top twenty was decent except for your love affair with the CS twins. They dont belong above a single person that is supposedly 21-30 except for maybe shikamaru and suigetsu, who youo also criminally overrate. You seriously think that the kimi we saw and juugo are akatsuki level? Juugo has never done anything of note except get two paneled by raikage, and kimimaru was pushed to his absolute limits by someone that had just taken the chuunin exam and a genin.

Kakashi is kage level and so is tsunade, sasori, deidara and kabuto.

Your list is messed up.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> To be honest, I don't see the Baku summon being very successful in restricting the Hachibi. This is the Eight-Tailed beast we are talking about; Its Menacing Ball should do the Baku in.



Restricting movements and then the boosting of Danzo's wind which happen to destroy the ultimate defense known as susanoo. 

Menacing ball also requires charging. ANd by that time Hachibi could be slashed with wind.


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## daschysta (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Restricting movements and then the boosting of Danzo's wind which happen to destroy the ultimate defense known as susanoo.
> 
> Menacing ball also requires charging. ANd by that time Hachibi could be slashed with wind.



If by destroy you mean open up a tiny tear in the back, which danzou didn't even take advantage of despite susanoo not even being complete then yeah. Destroyed.

Besides if charge time was a large issue then taka could have dodged it, and suigetsu would not have had to sacrifice his body to block it, and baku is not really what I would call mobile.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Karl said:


> This list is so messed up.
> 
> 
> 
> And Rin isn't Madara



Isstead of stating something was wrong, why don't you tell me how i am wrong. Please, that would really help.





I hardley think so. It destroyed Susanoo and will seirously injure Bee.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Sure, it will injure the Hachibi slightly, but it can't stop the Menacing Ball.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

true, but it could damage him very bad.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 2, 2010)

There is something to this, actually. The Bijuu themselves seem more...fragile than their shrouded forms. The Fuutons may actually tear the Hachibi open before he can finish charging the Imari


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Actually Lighty, I was thinking the exact same thing. I was thinking it would be harder to damage a shroaded Kn4 naruto(or kn6 or w/e) than a full kyuubi.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

I highly doubt this would occur before the Ball is charged.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Danzo did it in one panel 

  While it took the hachibi a lot longer to charge up a menacing ball.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

I still don't understand how people expect Danzo to undo his seal against enemy like Killer Bee who is so incredibly fast and adept at Taijutsu/Kenjutsu. And i also don't understand why Hachibi or V2 would struggle against Baku's Suction; why not just let it draw them into Close Combat that would be good for Killer Bee.



> Danzo did it in one panel


Actually it took Danzo 14 panels to complete the combo after summoning Baku

And it only took Hachibi 8 Panels to charge up his menacing ball a time-frame which could probably be shortened if Hachibi used a less powerful Menacing ball, which would still kill Baku


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## Rene (Jun 2, 2010)

Going by feats and characters with battles only:

1. Kyuubi Naruto 8
2. Six paths of Pain
3. Killerbee
4. Kyuubi Naruto 6
5. HM Jiraiya
6. Itachi
7. Kisame
8. Raikage
9. Kyuubi Naruto 4
10. HM Naruto
11. EMS Sasuke
12. Danzo
13. Orochimaru
14. Deidara
15. Old Sarutobi
16. Kakuzu
17. Gaara
18. Kakashi
19. Hidan
20. Sasori

I might've forgotten quite a few characters. :< My knowledge on Naruto isn't that great but this seems about right from what I recall.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> I still don't understand how people expect Danzo to undo his seal against enemy like Killer Bee who is so incredibly fast and adept at Taijutsu/Kenjutsu. And i also don't understand why Hachibi or V2 would struggle against Baku's Suction; why not just let it draw them into Close Combat that would be good for Killer Bee.
> 
> 
> Actually it took Danzo 14 panels to complete the combo after summoning Baku
> ...



Who says he starts unsealed?

Danzo is adept at kenjutsu as well. You think v2 bee could solo Baku? 

Also, he summoned, then waited a while after it sucked. Besides, it took actually one panel to do the seal and use teh jutsu.


Also, the menacing ball couldn't kill suigetsu, good luck with baku.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Isstead of stating something was wrong, why don't you tell me how i am wrong. Please, that would really help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Tobirama and Kisame above Minato? Onoki second place and Hiruzen first place? And Nagato isn't even there. 

You are joking right?


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

> Who says he starts unsealed?


If he starts unsealed thats an unfair advantage. 



> Danzo is adept at kenjutsu as well.


Not even close to Bee's Level



> You think v2 bee could solo Baku?


Easily V2 Laraite would rip Baku apart. The strength of V2 is ridiculous; Did you not see V2 carrying Ponta while swimming at top speeds like Ponta was a feather. 



> Also, he summoned, then waited a while after it sucked. Besides, it took actually one panel to do the seal and use teh jutsu.



A)That IC how he would use it then
B)He didn't wait it simply took him time to get around to the back of Sasuke w/o being sucked in by Baku himself.



> Also, the menacing ball couldn't kill suigetsu, good luck with baku.


Suigetsu with a huge water source is far more Durable then Baku and it still KO'd Suigetsu; So yeah Baku would be obliterated. 

Just admit it Hiruzen Bee > Danzo


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Karl said:


> Tobirama and Kisame above Minato? Onoki second place and Hiruzen first place? And Nagato isn't even there.
> 
> You are joking right?



Tobirama has shown more feats that Minato as had Kisame. Though I do see watcha mean how Kisame cannot be possibly higher than Minato, but Tobirama stays the same IMO. Key word opinion!

I forgot about Nagato. I would put him directly below Minato. 

Hiruzen is a given while Onoki is still to be determined.

My new list-

1) hiruzen prime
2) hashirama/Onoki/Tobirama
3) Minato
4) Madara
5) Nagato
6) Danzo
7) Kisame
8) Itachi
9) Orochimaru
10) Jiraiya


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## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen doesn't have shit on Hashirama with Biju, even without Biju, Hashirama was equal to EMS Prime Madara. Same with EMS Prime Madara, especially with Kyuubi.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> If he starts unsealed thats an unfair advantage.



How so?



> Not even close to Bee's Level



I hardley think so. 




> Easily V2 Laraite would rip Baku apart. The strength of V2 is ridiculous; Did you not see V2 carrying Ponta while swimming at top speeds like Ponta was a feather.



Or Baku's sheer size would dominate Bee.





> A)That IC how he would use it then
> B)He didn't wait it simply took him time to get around to the back of Sasuke w/o being sucked in by Baku himself.



It did not take 14 panels. Baku started the suction then Danzo immediatly used his winds. The other ones were of Karin and Madara's reactions that happened at the same time.


> Suigetsu with a huge water source is far more Durable then Baku and it still KO'd Suigetsu; So yeah Baku would be obliterated.



How is suigetsu more durable?


> Just admit it Hiruzen Danzo > Bee


 Okay I admit it.


----------



## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Hiruzen doesn't have shit on Hashirama with Biju, even without Biju, Hashirama was equal to EMS Prime Madara. Same with EMS Prime Madara, especially with Kyuubi.



Excuse me for a moment:


HOW THE HELL IS ANYBODY SAYING HASHIRAMA>HIRUZEN? HASHIRAMA HAS YET TO SHOW ANYTHING ON HIS POWER? THIS IS COMPLETE BS! AND JUST SAYING HE BEAT PRIME MADARA MEANS SHIT AS WELL CONSIDERING WE HAVENT SEEN ANYTHING FROM HIM EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

> How so?


Because he is getting time out of the fight and Knowledge that he needs Izanagi right off the bat; It would be the Same thing as letting Bee Start a Match in V2 Ready to Laraite the enemy or starting in Full Hachibi with a Menacing ball charged up



> I hardley think so.


Are you kidding me? When has Danzo ever shown Kenjutsu on the level of Bee's 7 Sword Stance?



> Or Baku's sheer size would dominate Bee.


Again your completely ignoring the fact that we saw V2 Bee pick up Ponta like he was a feather; V2 Laraite would split Ponta in Half.



> It did not take 14 panels. Baku started the suction then Danzo immediatly used his winds. The other ones were of Karin and Madara's reactions that happened at the same time.


And during those reactions Danzo was still moving to get behind Sasuke.



> How is suigetsu more durable?


Because he is Water Logai; But seriously the Dudge was made out of water and had a whole lake backing him up. Basically to kill him Bee would have to evaporate the entire Lake so that Suigetsu no longer had a water source to draw from.



> Okay I admit it.


Finally!


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## Lightysnake (Jun 2, 2010)

Keep in mind I'm only ranking danzo that high with the seal...unsealed. Without he's still Kage level, but not as godly. 

Though Shisui's eye apparently makes a huge difference


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## daschysta (Jun 2, 2010)

YEah I wish he would have used that eye in combat so we could better gauge just how haxxed it is. We know it has the power of suggestion, but what is the extent of the mind control?


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Agreed Lighty. And go re-red my post turrin, see what I admited too... 

Also, we might as well put them on the same level then.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Tobirama has shown more feats that Minato as had Kisame. Though I do see watcha mean how Kisame cannot be possibly higher than Minato, but Tobirama stays the same IMO. Key word opinion!
> 
> I forgot about Nagato. I would put him directly below Minato.
> 
> ...



I'm confused about this list, Hiruzen.

Hiruzen Prime should not be number one. Also, to place Onoki above Minato, Danzo, Madara, Itachi, Jiraiya, Oro and Nagato seems strange to me. And where is Bee?


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## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> HOW THE HELL IS ANYBODY SAYING HASHIRAMA>HIRUZEN? HASHIRAMA HAS YET TO SHOW ANYTHING ON HIS POWER? THIS IS COMPLETE BS! AND JUST SAYING HE BEAT PRIME MADARA MEANS SHIT AS WELL CONSIDERING WE HAVENT SEEN ANYTHING FROM HIM EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!1


The hypocrisy in this statement is laughable. How exactly are you going to rate Prime Hiruzen when we have no feats for him, but then not accept hype for Hashirama when we have more feats from him, when Prime Hiruzen has none.

With just his Bijus Hashirama's feats are better, showing the amount of Mokuton he could create in the VotE also showed he would own Hiruzen's feats. He would just place his genjutsu on him, and then kill him in the forest. That is without real feats. We know that Prime Madara was good if not great in taijutsu via Sharingan and sparring sessions with his brother. The fact Hashirama could keep up with him in taijutsu shows his skill. We know with EMS he gets Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano as well as the other upgrade you get from EMS. As well as the Uchiha Clan signature Katon. Going by speculation, he should also have a Futon with his fan.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> I'm confused about this list, Hiruzen.
> 
> Hiruzen Prime should not be number one. Also, to place Onoki above Minato, Danzo, Madara, Itachi, Jiraiya, Oro and Nagato seems strange to me. And where is Bee?



Onoki did battle with Madara and he was stated to be very powerful in his prime. One could only imagine that he would be totally beats.

Also, Sanbi, judging from what Hiruzen did in his old age, imagine what he would do iin his prime.


And Hashirama has not shown any earth jutsu all he has shown is wood. You are assuming way too much.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 2, 2010)

'Fought' wasn't 'beat.'

Onoki is clearly not to Minato's level


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Onoki did battle with Madara and he was stated to be very powerful in his prime. One could only imagine that he would be totally beats.
> 
> Also, Sanbi, judging from what Hiruzen did in his old age, imagine what he would do iin his prime.
> 
> ...



Well, that's not nearly enough info to place him that high, IMO. We barely have any feats from current Onoki. Its hard to picture how powerful he would be in his prime.

And just my two cents: Hashirama's Kekkei Genkai is a combination of Suiton and Doton. Yamato explained that he uses Doton in one hand and Suiton in the other to create Wood. And also seeing how proficient Yamato is a Doton and Suiton jutsu, we can assume Hashirama knows some high level Suiton and Doton jutsus.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Well, that's not nearly enough info to place him that high, IMO. We barely have any feats from current Onoki. Its hard to picture how powerful he would be in his prime.
> 
> And just my two cents: Hashirama's Kekkei Genkai is a combination of Suiton and Doton. Yamato explained that he uses Doton in one hand and Suiton in the other to create Wood. And also seeing how proficient Yamato is a Doton and Suiton jutsu, we can assume Hashirama knows some high level Suiton and Doton jutsus.



And we know Onoki has a a haxxed insanly powerful dust release jutsu. 

Also, heck, Onoki showed as much as Minato.


----------



## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> And we know Onoki has a a haxxed insanly powerful dust release jutsu.
> 
> Also, heck, Onoki showed as much as Minato.



We have way more from Minato, hype wise and ability wise. We know he has Rasengan, Toad summons, Death seal, Flying Thunder God, etc. Onoki's Dust Release is good, but it doesn't put him on Minato level.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 2, 2010)

Yeah, Onoki apparently a 'flee on sight' order for Minato.


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## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

Good point, Onoki was in charge then.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Say what Lighty?


Also, onoki's abilties are way too good. Petrification upon contact, and a huge dust cube that puvilizes the foe on a molecular level.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 2, 2010)

And Minato can slit your throat before you even realize he has a kunai


----------



## Thunder (Jun 2, 2010)

That Dust Cube is pretty useless against Minato's speed.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

Yeah i side with Lighty and Lord Thunder Onoki is to high at least as of now; Though i really doubt he will ever be shown as strong as Hashirama


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Why? Hashirama's forest would be destroyed by dust cube. 

And all his wood that actually touches him would be turned to stone. It would be a matter of time before Hashirama died.



BTW- does anyone else think Hiruko from the naruto shippuden third movie makes the list?


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## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Also, Sanbi, judging from what Hiruzen did in his old age, imagine what he would do iin his prime.


That is still hype and no feats. With the feats they have in their Prime as well as Edo/Old versions, Hashirama would win.



> And Hashirama has not shown any earth jutsu all he has shown is wood. You are assuming way too much.


I don't remember saying he has Doton, but the fact he uses Mokuton means he can use both Suitons and Dotons, so how would it be a stretch.


----------



## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Bee would dodge it easily; Remember his mountain crossing Shunshin?


And that buys Danzo time to unseal his arm. Plus, Bee did that while immobile, if he was rushing head on against Danzo, he might get hit.



> Hachibi would know somethings up and break him out


The thing is his genjutsu is so subtle I doubt he would notice it, and if he does it would at least take some time, and that time could get him his seal undone.



> How Bee just Shunshin's behind him like he did to Kisame; What can he possibly do then.


 His reaction speed is high enough to react to that with Shuishi's Sharingan.



> Bee is just too fast for him and Danzo even with Sharigan can't read his sword work.


He doesn't need to with AoE Futons, and with Shuishi's Sharingan I could see him reacting better then Sasuke, since even without his Sharingan his reactions are top-tier.




> I honestly don't see how; The only way i see Danzo even having a small chance at beating Bee is if he had Full Knowledge and Prep-Time, but that alone suggest Bee is a Tier above him. But hell i think Bee is a tier above J-man, Itachi, and Orochi for that matter.


If he gets more feats, then maybe. But now he is in the same danger level as the rest of them against normal opponents.

I've said before, I'm not directly comparing the two, I'm just saying that generally speaking they are on the same level of danger. Kirabi is just a bad match-up for him, same as Kisame with Kirabi.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 2, 2010)

> And that buys Danzo time to unseal his arm.


Not enough time; it took Danzo a decent amount of time to unseal his arm. If Danzo used a Fuuton and Bee Shunshin out of the way maybe he would get time to unseal one bolt before Bee Shunshined behind him



> Plus, Bee did that while immobile, if he was rushing head on against Danzo, he might get hit.


I don't think it matters if you moving or not; But quite honestly Bee could probably tank it. After all he did Tank Chidori when wet with no visible damage. 



> The thing is his genjutsu is so subtle I doubt he would notice it, and if he does it would at least take some time, and that time could get him his seal undone


It again takes a-lot more time for Danzo to unseal his arm then you giving it credit for; If Bee was just standing around Hachibi would break him out realizing something is wrong before this happens.

Not to mention that Danzo would have to actually know he needs to use Shishui's eye on Bee before trying to undo his seal; which w/o Full or nearly Full Knowledge on Bee's Abilities it seems very OOC for Danzo to do this. 



> This. His reaction speed is high enough to react to that with Shuishi's Sharingan.


Please don't compare Bee Shushining behind danzo to some fodder Ninja jumping at Danzo



> He doesn't need to with AoE Futons, and with Shuishi's Sharingan I could see him reacting better then Sasuke, since even without his Sharingan his reactions are top-tier.


He still wouldn't be able to read Bee's Sword Work and Shishui's Sharingan is useless if Bee Shunshin's behind him outside his line of sight.



> If he gets more feats, then maybe. But now he is in the same danger level as the rest of them against normal opponents.
> 
> I've said before, I'm not directly comparing the two, I'm just saying that generally speaking they are on the same level of danger. Kirabi is just a bad match-up for him, same as Kisame with Kirabi.


Yeah Killer Bee is a bad match for Danzo; Thats why he can beat him in base before he unseals his arm. I'm fully aware of that. However logically speaking Bee would defeat all of those Ninja more times then he would loose; The only exception Being an Orochimaru with Tensi depending on their level of Regen since Bee doesn't seem to have a way to kill them off, but he would at least take Oro down with him(So more of a draw of sorts).

But yeah if you want to rank Bee with J-man, Oro, Itachi, etc... i full respect your opinion(though i don't agree with it)


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## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Not enough time; it took Danzo a decent amount of time to unseal his arm.


 It should only take like 6-10 seconds at worst. As little as three seconds at best.



> If Danzo used a Fuuton and Bee Shunshin out of the way maybe he would get time to unseal one bolt before Bee Shunshined behind him


OK, rinse and repeat that three times and he unseals his arm.  I don't think Bee would Shunshin this much, and he will definitely have enough time to unbolt one bolt in between Shunshins.




> I don't think it matters if you moving or not;


It might not give him enough time to react if he was rushing forward.



> But quite honestly Bee could probably tank it. After all he did Tank Chidori when wet with no visible damage.


When wet the Raiton is more likely to disperse into the water then be in the form of a sharp Chidori, meaning he wouldn't have pierced him as hard, if at all.

 But seriously, no matter how durable Bee is in base, without a shroud at least, he isn't tanking a Futon from Danzo. With his experience and feats, he should be better then Asuma at Futon.  It has the most offensive power, , but obviously Kisame has never seen Danzo's Futons. Bee' Raiton and Danzo's Futon would definitely pierce right through Bee. 



> It again takes a-lot more time for Danzo to unseal his arm then you giving it credit for;


He has 3 bolts and it takes a few seconds at worst, meaning he could unseal his arm in almost 3 seconds, if not 6-10.



> If Bee was just standing around Hachibi would break him out realizing something is wrong before this happens.


The thing is, Danzo wouldn't be that stupid to influence him not to do anything. He would influence him to do things like not use Raiton to power his swords, or only use his Base speed not Shunshin. Something not that noticeable.



> Not to mention that Danzo would have to actually know he needs to use Shishui's eye on Bee before trying to undo his seal; which w/o Full or nearly Full Knowledge on Bee's Abilities it seems very OOC for Danzo to do this.


He knows that Kirabi can control the Hachibi. I think that would be enough, and with Futons, he wouldn't need it IMO.





> Please don't compare Bee Shushining behind danzo to some fodder Ninja jumping at Danzo


If Kisame could react to it, Danzo, who has better reaction feats as seen against Sasuke, which I was referencing when talking about his reaction speed not the fodder jumping him, and with those feats added on with Shuishi's Sharingan will allow him to react to Danzo if Kisame could.




> He still wouldn't be able to read Bee's Sword Work and Shishui's Sharingan is useless if Bee Shunshin's behind him outside his line of sight.


We saw how well that did against Kisame, who has worse reaction feats then Danzo, and we have also seen Danzo know when people are behind him.

With his Futons' there is no need to read his sword skills.




> Yeah Killer Bee is a bad match for Danzo; Thats why he can beat him in base before he unseals his arm. *Not apart of the reference down there:* (I'm fully aware of that. )


I agree with the former, but disagree with the latter. Unless Danzo already unseals his arm/has a big distance.



> However logically speaking Bee would defeat all of those Ninja more times then he would loose;


I disagree, the ones who need set up: Danzo, Jiraiya and Oro; all have ways to hold him back to play their trump card. They can all find ways to beat him except maybe Danzo, and have contradictory styles compared to Bee.



> The only exception Being an Orochimaru with Tensi depending on their level of Regen since Bee doesn't seem to have a way to kill them off, but he would at least take Oro down with him(So more of a draw of sorts).


I really don't know, seems like Oro could regenerate from everything Bee has to offer besides his Chakra Cannon.



> But yeah if you want to rank Bee with J-man, Oro, Itachi, etc... i full respect your opinion(though i don't agree with it)


I don't get how being on the same level as the 4 strongest ninja's introduced, san Nagato, isn't that believable. They all have amazing trump cards, like Sennin Mōdo, Edo Tensei, Mangekyō Sharingan and Izanagi. They are all very powerful in taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu some more so then others. Just because Kirabi is fast, has great kenjutsu along with very powerful Raiton as well as control over his Biju doesn't mean an automatic win against Jiraiya and Danzo because they aren't his type, and they need time to become powerful.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Anyone else think Hiruko(movie) makes the list?


----------



## Sanbi (Jun 2, 2010)

I don't even know who that is so, no.


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## Big Mom (Jun 2, 2010)

Lmao then I guess this goes to those who know who he is.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 3, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Anyone else think Hiruko(movie) makes the list?



Nah

He is strong though, but he can't absorb every jutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 3, 2010)

Revised List:

*Tier 0*:
Rikudou Sennin
*Tier 1*: 
Pain

*Tier 2*:
Hashirama
Minato
Prime Madara

*Tier 3*:
Jiraiya
Killer Bee/A
Naruto
Danzo
Itachi
Sasuke
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Gaara
Deidara
Sasori

*Tier 4*:
Mei Terumi
Kakuzu
Konan
Onoki
Kakashi
Gai
Shikamaru
Neji
Hidan


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## rstyled (Jun 3, 2010)

I guess Hiruko could be considered to be in the top 20 list while he is immune to ninjutsu (sort of), kenjutsu and taijutsu.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 3, 2010)

Tier 1
Nagato

Tier 2
Itachi 
Madara
Hashirama
Minato

Tier 3
Naruto 
Sasuke

Tier 4
Killerbee
Kisame
Orochimaru
Jiraiya 

Tier 5
Raikage
Hiruzen
Kakuzu
Danzo

Tier 6
Rest of the Kages
Sasori
Deidara
Kakashi


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## Excalibur (Jun 3, 2010)

That's a good list but nagato in tier 1 and Itachi in tier 2. But every one else seems to be well placed..


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## Lightysnake (Jun 3, 2010)

Yeah. Itachi and Kisame are too high there


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## Excalibur (Jun 3, 2010)

Oh didn't even notice kisame.. He's indeed way to high. he's above two legendary sannin, no..


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## Lightysnake (Jun 3, 2010)

I have no idea why people insist on placing him to that level when Kisame himself has cheerfully placed himself below it. Deidara and Sasori is one thing, but there was no reason for Kisame to lie.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Yeah. Itachi and Kisame are too high there



If you are talking about my list, I'm not putting them in an order. I just tier them.


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## Kisame (Jun 3, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> I have no idea why people insist on placing him to that level when Kisame himself has cheerfully placed himself below it. Deidara and Sasori is one thing, but there was no reason for Kisame to lie.




I agree Jiraiya>Kisame,Kisame Vs. Oro is arguable,but tsunade is way too weak to fight Kisame


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## Lightysnake (Jun 3, 2010)

Not really. Kisame generally starts out in Taijutsu, which is Tsunade's specialty. Even if he's durable enough to tank her punches-doubtful as hell- then she can still use her rashinosou on him and proceed to mess him up big time. Or Katsuyu, which he has little answer for.

And Karl: Yes, I know. Kisame is not on a whole tier above Sasori and Deidara and Itachi does not belong on a tier that high above everyone.


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2010)

> It took him a few seconds to undo one of his three bolts sealing his arm. It should only take like 6-10 seconds at worst. As little as three seconds at best.


But it takes Bee less then a Second to Shunshin Behind Danzo



> OK, rinse and repeat that three times and he unseals his arm.  I don't think Bee would Shunshin this much, and he will definitely have enough time to unbolt one bolt in between Shunshins.


After Bee Shunshin's behind him he would not have time to turn around, make the handseals for,  and use his Fuuton



> When wet the Raiton is more likely to disperse into the water then be in the form of a sharp Chidori, meaning he wouldn't have pierced him as hard, if at all.
> 
> But seriously, no matter how durable Bee is in base, without a shroud at least, he isn't tanking a Futon from Danzo. With his experience and feats, he should be better then Asuma at Futon. And Asuma can easily do this, and pierce a rock straight through. It has the most offensive power, and making it better then Raiton at piercing, and Bee making his Raiton that sharp was incredible, but obviously Kisame has never seen Danzo's Futons. Bee' Raiton and Danzo's Futon would definitely pierce right through Bee.


I don't think Bee could tank Danzo's higher level Fuuton, but Bee could probably tank his lower level Fuuton in my opinion as he has insane durability feats



> He has 3 bolts and it takes a few seconds at worst, meaning he could unseal his arm in almost 3 seconds, if not 6-10.


Thats a-lot of time when Bee Can Shunshin behind him and stab a sword through his stomach in a matter of 2 seconds. Also your forgetting that not only does he have to undo the seal, but he has to do the necessary hand-seals to activate izanagi.



> The thing is, Danzo wouldn't be that stupid to influence him not to do anything. He would influence him to do things like not use Raiton to power his swords, or only use his Base speed not Shunshin. Something not that noticeable.


Good Point; I'll admit that might work. However keep in mind that Danzo is then forced to use one of his greatest weapons just to delay a Base Bee. 



> He knows that Kirabi can control the Hachibi. I think that would be enough, and with Futons, he wouldn't need it IMO.


Bee being able to control the Hachibi does not Mean Danzo will IC use up his one usage of Shishui's eye on him immediately as the battle begins. Danzo would have to have Knowledge of Bee's incredible Speed/Kenjutsu 



> If Kisame could react to it, Danzo, who has better reaction feats as seen against Sasuke, which I was referencing when talking about his reaction speed not the fodder jumping him, and with those feats added on with Shuishi's Sharingan will allow him to react to Danzo if Kisame could.


Kisame is better in Taijutsu/Kenjutsu then Danzo and Sasuke thats how he was able to react. Also he wasn't able to complete guard the attack as he had to let himself get hit by one of bee's swords to block thee other. Not to mention Bee didn't have his full arsenal of swords with him at the time and thus was limited. 



> I agree with the former, but disagree with the latter. Unless Danzo already unseals his arm/has a big distance.


Well Yeah if the Battle Field is Suitable then Danzo could have a chance to unseal his arm. But it would have to be a huge distance between them(Since be Can Shunshin the Distance of Mountains) or it would have be a battle field with no Line of Sight and huge distance between them

But BattleField can be manipulated to favor any fighter; For instance danzo would get rapped even worse if they started out on a open field with a starting distance of 5m



> I disagree, the ones who need set up: Danzo, Jiraiya and Oro; all have ways to hold him back to play their trump card. They can all find ways to beat him except maybe Danzo, and have contradictory styles compared to Bee.


I think Danzo and Jiraiya would have a very hard time achieving Izanagi and HM; Though its not entirely impossible there is a also a high chance of them being killed off before they can achieve it.

But the problem is even if they do achieve it Bee would still win with Full Hachibi Mode or V2.

Orochimaru is really the only one who could beat Bee and thats simply because Bee doesn't have a way to kill of the Tensi; Though again Orochimaru would also end up dead; so it would be more of a tie of sorts. 



> I really don't know, seems like Oro could regenerate from everything Bee has to offer besides his Chakra Cannon.


I agree; The problem is Bee does have Chakra Cannon so that would pretty much be what Bee uses once he realizes the level of Oro's Regen and Oro really doesn't have anything that can damage Bee unless he has Tensi ready to use and he has the right Tensi for the Job.



> I don't get how being on the same level as the 4 strongest ninja's introduced, san Nagato, isn't that believable. They all have amazing trump cards, like Sennin Mōdo, Edo Tensei, Mangekyō Sharingan and Izanagi. They are all very powerful in taijutsu, ninjutsu and genjutsu some more so then others. Just because Kirabi is fast, has great kenjutsu along with very powerful Raiton as well as control over his Biju doesn't mean an automatic win against Jiraiya and Danzo because they aren't his type, and they need time to become powerful.


Thats why i said i respect your opinion.

As for why i think Bee is stronger then all of them; The Reason is that i believe they would all need Full Knowledge to Beat Bee.

1)Orochimaru w/o Knowledge Probably wouldn't even have Tensi Prepped and w/o them he really has no way to damage Bee and will Ultimately be Outlasted or Incinerated with a chakra Cannon

2)Jiraiya w/o Knowledge would probably try to fight Bee in Base; Which would end badly and lead to Bee probably going V1 or V2 and killing Jiriaya before he enters HM. And even if he Does achieve HM he doesn't really have anything that can beat Bee. Maybe will Full Knowledge and some prep he could come up with a Plan, but W/o it he loses

3)Itachi w/o Knowledge would just end up thinking he defeated Bee with Genjutsu and get Ambushed and Killed or he would think he defeated bee with Amaterasu only to find out that its a Kwarimi and he would get Ambushed by Bee.

4)Danzo w/o Knowledge probably would not use Shishui's eye to gain the time to enter Izanagi and w/o that i just don't see him achieving Izangi; Even if he does achieve Izanagi he basically can't win though. But Maybe with Full Knowledge he could implement a cunning strategy. 

Thats why i think Bee's Stronger he would defeat all of them unless they had Full Knowledge of his abilities going into the battle


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## Big Mom (Jun 3, 2010)

Karl said:


> Nah
> 
> He is strong though, but he can't absorb every jutsu.



The only reason he had a problem was due to FRS requiring the shape and nature manipulation, which Hiruko could not perform.

But Hiruko defidently makes the list. He could be Kakashi and others, which are on many lists.


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## Tourune (Jun 3, 2010)

uchiha itachi 92 said:


> you dont have to agree
> i know this has probably been done before, i wa just interested in eveybody's views, heres my list:
> 
> 1.   Sage of the Six Paths
> ...



how is Sasuke stronger than Itachi, Jiraya, Orochimaru, Danzo, + Hanzo????

Jugo is hear but not Jiraya + Sakumo

also weres Setsuna, Shusui, + Towa????????????


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## Sanbi (Jun 3, 2010)

Reiterating my list like I always do every few pages. Some are interchangeable, like Tier 3.

_*Tier 1: *
1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara (Prime)

*Tier 2:*
3. Yakushi Kabuto (Edo Tensei Included)
4. Rikudou Pain
5. Namikaze Minato

*Tier 3:*
6. Hermit Jiraiya
7. Killer Bee 
8. Uchiha Itachi
9. Edo Orochimaru 
10. Shimura Danzo

*Tier 4:*
11. Hoshigaki Kisame
12/13. Uzumaki Naruto / Uchiha Sasuke (No EMS, or Kyuubi Control)
14. Akasuna no Sasori
15. Deidara

*Tier 5:* 
16. 4th Raikage (Until Further Feats)
17/18. Hatake Kakashi/Tsunade (Until Further Feats)

*Tier 6:*
19. Kakuzu
20. Sabaku no Gaara_



Turrin said:


> But it takes Bee less then a Second to Shunshin Behind Danzo


That is obviously not the case, as seen against Kisame. Also, Sharingan + INsane Reaction Feats in Base = He could react.




> After Bee Shunshin's behind him he would not have time to turn around, make the handseals for,  and use his Fuuton


Danzo has insane reaction feats, and he can also use Mokuton to delay him if needed, as Hashirama's Cells aren't covered by the seal. You also underestimate how fast it takes shinobi to do handseals, Danzo has done it so fast, that the fodder who were attacking him haven't even moved from when he started his seals. I know Bee is faster then that, but it is something to consider.




> I don't think Bee could tank Danzo's higher level Fuuton, but Bee could probably tank his lower level Fuuton in my opinion as he has insane durability feats


If you mean his Mini-Wind Balls? Maybe, but not his slicing one in the air.




> Thats a-lot of time when Bee Can Shunshin behind him and stab a sword through his stomach in a matter of 2 seconds. Also your forgetting that not only does he have to undo the seal, but he has to do the necessary hand-seals to activate izanagi.


He has the necessary stall tactics, Baku, Futons, Mokuton, and Shuishi's Sharingan. It also depends on the distance, as that would contribute to his fight.




> Good Point; I'll admit that might work. However keep in mind that Danzo is then forced to use one of his greatest weapons just to delay a Base Bee.


If he gets into Izanagi, it will most definitely be worth it.



> Bee being able to control the Hachibi does not Mean Danzo will IC use up his one usage of Shishui's eye on him immediately as the battle begins. Danzo would have to have Knowledge of Bee's incredible Speed/Kenjutsu


I don't see why he wouldn't, with knowledge of Kumo's style, his brother and if he knew about the Hachibi, I don't think basic on the Kenjutsu and Speed would be too much.



> Kisame is better in Taijutsu/Kenjutsu then Danzo and Sasuke thats how he was able to react.


But Danzo still has better reaction feats.



> Also he wasn't able to complete guard the attack as he had to let himself get hit by one of bee's swords to block thee other. Not to mention Bee didn't have his full arsenal of swords with him at the time and thus was limited.


True, but a simple Futon can make the difference here, as it can blow him away or slice him up.




> Well Yeah if the Battle Field is Suitable then Danzo could have a chance to unseal his arm. But it would have to be a huge distance between them(Since be Can Shunshin the Distance of Mountains) or it would have be a battle field with no Line of Sight and huge distance between them


Also if Danzo was the one attacking him, he could hae the advantage, like Kirabi didn't know he was getting attacked and Danzo could ambush him with prep and intel.



> But BattleField can be manipulated to favor any fighter; For instance danzo would get rapped even worse if they started out on a open field with a starting distance of 5m


I have no problems agreeing with this.




> I think Danzo and Jiraiya would have a very hard time achieving Izanagi and HM; Though its not entirely impossible there is a also a high chance of them being killed off before they can achieve it.


Well if they went in there with prep and intel, like Jiraiya usually does, they would have a much better chance. Jiraiya has better ways to achieve HM though, with boss summons, trapping jutsu, stealth jutsu etc. Danzo has ways to stall as well.



> But the problem is even if they do achieve it Bee would still win with Full Hachibi Mode or V2.


Maybe, but they still have a chance to win with trumps. Magen Gamarinshou, Yomi Numa + Gamayue Endan, Baku Powered Futon, Shuishi's Sharingan.



> Orochimaru is really the only one who could beat Bee and thats simply because Bee doesn't have a way to kill of the Tensi; Though again Orochimaru would also end up dead; so it would be more of a tie of sorts.






> I agree; The problem is Bee does have Chakra Cannon so that would pretty much be what Bee uses once he realizes the level of Oro's Regen and Oro really doesn't have anything that can damage Bee unless he has Tensi ready to use and he has the right Tensi for the Job.


Yeah, Sanju Rashoumon + LAC/Summons might allow him to tank that though.




> Thats why i said i respect your opinion.
> 
> As for why i think Bee is stronger then all of them; The Reason is that i believe they would all need Full Knowledge to Beat Bee.


It's not really beating each other, but more being on the same thread level. Some have more favorable match against each other, like Itachi against Oro, or Kirabi vs Danzo.



> 1)Orochimaru w/o Knowledge Probably wouldn't even have Tensi Prepped and w/o them he really has no way to damage Bee and will Ultimately be Outlasted or Incinerated with a chakra Cannon
> 
> 2)Jiraiya w/o Knowledge would probably try to fight Bee in Base; Which would end badly and lead to Bee probably going V1 or V2 and killing Jiriaya before he enters HM. And even if he Does achieve HM he doesn't really have anything that can beat Bee. Maybe will Full Knowledge and some prep he could come up with a Plan, but W/o it he loses
> 
> ...


I'm not going to really debate these, since in the manga, there is also the probability of getting intel on the enemy like some do, Danzo and Jiraiya or even prep, like Oro. So it is not outside the range of possibilities for that to happen.



> Thats why i think Bee's Stronger he would defeat all of them unless they had Full Knowledge of his abilities going into the battle


While I do think Kirabi is one of the stronger of the bunch, they all have around the same threat level. Some are more one dimensional, and dangerous with no knowledge (Kirabi, Itachi) others have more versatility to deal with more situations, and with prep and intel on a battle, they become much more dangerous. (Oro, Jiraiya, Danzo). In the manga, a battle can include prep, so it doesn't seem that unrealistic IMO.


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## Judecious (Jun 3, 2010)

Tier 1: 
1.Hashirama
2.Madara (Prime)

Tier 2:
3.Minato(needs feat)
4.Pain
5.Kabuto 


Tier 3:
6.Naruto/Sasuke
7.Tobirama senju(edo tensei included)
8.Hermit Jiraiya
9.Killer Bee 
10.Itachi
11.Orochimaru 
12.Shimura Danzo

Tier 4:
13.Kisame
14.Kakashi/Tsunade (more feat)
15.Raikage
16.Deidara
17.Mei

Tier 6:
18.Kakuzu
19.Gaara
20.Chiyo


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## Lightysnake (Jun 3, 2010)

Awesome list, Sanbi.


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## Big Mom (Jun 3, 2010)

Why do people constantly put Orochimaru over Danzo?


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## Thunder (Jun 3, 2010)

Probably because of Tensei and his durability.


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## Big Mom (Jun 3, 2010)

Thats it? Edo Tensei is that really it?


----------



## Thunder (Jun 3, 2010)

Well, not many ninjas have an answer to it. If you can't beat the Tensei, you can't really win.


----------



## Big Mom (Jun 3, 2010)

But with Izanagi, it is possible for him to kill Orochimaru.


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## Thunder (Jun 3, 2010)

That's the thing; even if he kills Oro (which isn't likely considering his durability), the Tensei Zombies will still be there and will continue to fight. It would be a draw at best.


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2010)

> That is obviously not the case, as seen against Kisame. Also, Sharingan + INsane Reaction Feats in Base = He could react.


What do you mean? We did seem him Shunshin behind Kisame in less then a second.



> Danzo has insane reaction feats, and he can also use Mokuton to delay him if needed, as Hashirama's Cells aren't covered by the seal. You also underestimate how fast it takes shinobi to do handseals, Danzo has done it so fast, that the fodder who were attacking him haven't even moved from when he started his seals. I know Bee is faster then that, but it is something to consider.


What are these insane reaction feats you keep talking about because i don't seem to remember them.



> If you mean his Mini-Wind Balls? Maybe, but not his slicing one in the air.


These two things i think he can tank

1-http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/477/08/

2-http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/477/12/



> He has the necessary stall tactics, Baku, Futons, Mokuton, and Shuishi's Sharingan. It also depends on the distance, as that would contribute to his fight.


I think he would need Full Knowledge to Stall Efficiently and Sacrificing Baku and/or Shishui's Sharigan to undo his seal is a big loss. 



> If he gets into Izanagi, it will most definitely be worth it.


It still leaves him lacking one of his Greatest weapons



> I don't see why he wouldn't, with knowledge of Kumo's style, his brother and if he knew about the Hachibi, I don't think basic on the Kenjutsu and Speed would be too much.


There is one thing to assume Bee is Good at close combat its another thing to know he is one of the Fastest characters in the entire naruto world.



> But Danzo still has better reaction feats.


Again i ask for examples of these Reaction feats; Danzo was completely Blitzed By Sasuke:




> True, but a simple Futon can make the difference here, as it can blow him away or slice him up.


I still don't see why Bee can't use Shunshin to dodge the Fuuton and then get behind Danzo in the same instance with his 7 Swords. 



> Also if Danzo was the one attacking him, he could hae the advantage, like Kirabi didn't know he was getting attacked and Danzo could ambush him with prep and intel.


Yeah with Prep, Intel, and the right battlefield Danzo would have a chance to win. 



> Well if they went in there with prep and intel, like Jiraiya usually does, they would have a much better chance. Jiraiya has better ways to achieve HM though, with boss summons, trapping jutsu, stealth jutsu etc. Danzo has ways to stall as well.


True with Prep and Intel they would both achieve Izanagi and HM no Problem. Which is why i keep saying they can win with Prep and Intel



> Maybe, but they still have a chance to win with trumps. Magen Gamarinshou, Yomi Numa + Gamayue Endan, Baku Powered Futon, Shuishi's Sharingan.



-Magen Gamarinshou would be broken by Hachibi
-Yomi Numa is a Doton and would be countered by Raiton

-Baku Powered Fuuton Won't Work for reasons i already stated many times in this threa
-Shishui's Sharigan Probably would only be effective as a means of Stalling Bee



> Yeah, Sanju Rashoumon + LAC/Summons might allow him to tank that though.


And how many times can he use Sanju Rashoumon? The Gates would be Obliterated by the first Menacing Ball and then then Oro would have no defense after that. 



> It's not really beating each other, but more being on the same thread level. Some have more favorable match against each other, like Itachi against Oro, or Kirabi vs Danzo.


I totally Agree with that, but i believe Bee is on a level above them and is more on Nagato's level then their level. Thats why Naruto can only surpass Bee by achieving full control over the Kyuubi. Bee is a bigger milestone and represents a higher level then Itachi, J-man, Oro, etc...



> I'm not going to really debate these, since in the manga, there is also the probability of getting intel on the enemy like some do, Danzo and Jiraiya or even prep, like Oro. So it is not outside the range of possibilities for that to happen.


True its not; But the fact that they need these advantages suggest that Bee is indeed a step above them to some degree.



> While I do think Kirabi is one of the stronger of the bunch, they all have around the same threat level. Some are more one dimensional, and dangerous with no knowledge (Kirabi, Itachi) others have more versatility to deal with more situations, and with prep and intel on a battle, they become much more dangerous. (Oro, Jiraiya, Danzo). In the manga, a battle can include prep, so it doesn't seem that unrealistic IMO.


Again i totally agree, but at the same time the fact that all of them need Prep/Intel to win against Killer Bee and even then it just gives them a small chance to win suggest Killer Bee is on another level. 

Like for instance you don't put Nagato/Pain on the same level as J-man even though the manga states J-man would beat Nagato/Pain with Intel; The reason being that Jiraiya needs that intel to win, which implies Nagato/Pain is a step above J-man.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 3, 2010)

> Why do people constantly put Orochimaru over Danzo?


Orochimaru's Stronger then Danzo; It would be pretty hard for me to Imagine Danzo take down Orochimaru +3 Powerful Tensi


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## Lightysnake (Jun 3, 2010)

With Shisui's eye, he could make him desummon the zombies, though


----------



## Turrin (Jun 3, 2010)

> With Shisui's eye, he could make him desummon the zombies, though


Can you De-Summon Tensi? Also after that Oro could re-summon them. And Danzo still pretty much lacks a way to kill Oro because of Oro's insane regen and durability.


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## Thunder (Jun 3, 2010)

Indeed, Fuutons just won't cut it. No pun intended.


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## Big Mom (Jun 3, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru's Stronger then Danzo; It would be pretty hard for me to Imagine Danzo take down Orochimaru +3 Powerful Tensi



I honestly feel that Shusui's eye can cancel out Tensei.

In all honestly, I see someone putting them equal, but not below Orochimaru.


----------



## Sanbi (Jun 3, 2010)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean? We did seem him Shunshin behind Kisame in less then a second.


Yet Kisame still reacted to it. I honestly doubt it would take lss then a second, at least one second.



> What are these insane reaction feats you keep talking about because i don't seem to remember them.


Just an example of some of his feats.  , he reacted to Susano coming out which happens extremely fast, it reacted to a Raiga Bomb and Kirin. He was reacting to the Susano arrow with the same speed as Kakashi, who had a Sharingan out and has incredible feats.  Sasuke blitzed him after getting healed by Karin, and Danzo still has that hole in his chest, and was running out of chakra. 




> These two things i think he can tank
> 
> 1-http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/477/08/
> 
> 2-http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/477/12/


He might be able to tank the first, but definitely not the second, that would rip through him.




> I think he would need Full Knowledge to Stall Efficiently and Sacrificing Baku and/or Shishui's Sharigan to undo his seal is a big loss.


Like I said, IMO he only needs his Futons and Mokutons to undo the seal. Obviously we have different opinions.




> It still leaves him lacking one of his Greatest weapons


And gives him his other big weapon. But like I said, IMO he won't need it.




> There is one thing to assume Bee is Good at close combat its another thing to know he is one of the Fastest characters in the entire naruto world.


Like I said, Danzo's reactions feats will allow him to react to Kirabi's speed and his swordwork would be blown away by his Futons.



> Again i ask for examples of these Reaction feats; Danzo was completely Blitzed By Sasuke:


He did that when A) he didn't have to react good with Izanagi guarding him. and B) he had the same speed as Sasuke here and he perfectly reacted to him, he instead of getting a hit, he placed a binding seal on Sasuke.



> I still don't see why Bee can't use Shunshin to dodge the Fuuton and then get behind Danzo in the same instance with his 7 Swords.


I seriously doubt Kirabi can dodge one his Futon while charging him, then turn that dodge into a Shunshin to get behind Danzo. Shunshin behind him after a Futon would be really hard, then do it without Danzo noticing or reacting.




> Yeah with Prep, Intel, and the right battlefield Danzo would have a chance to win.


He has a chance with any conditions, but Kirabi has the advantage, since it is a bad match-up.




> True with Prep and Intel they would both achieve Izanagi and HM no Problem. Which is why i keep saying they can win with Prep and Intel


Glad we agree.





> -Magen Gamarinshou would be broken by Hachibi


It allows for an opening though, and with Chou Oodama Rasengan that opening could be crucial.



> -Yomi Numa is a Doton and would be countered by Raiton


Like the above it allows for an opening, and without  full body raiton, it will be hard to break it out.



> -Baku Powered Fuuton Won't Work for reasons i already stated many times in this threa


Well I think it would, if played right.



> -Shishui's Sharigan Probably would only be effective as a means of Stalling Bee


true, but it could also affect his choice of attack like not to use Shunshin, or raiton powered blades etc.




> And how many times can he use Sanju Rashoumon? The Gates would be Obliterated by the first Menacing Ball and then then Oro would have no defense after that.


He still has LAC and Dotoning. But I see your point.





> I totally Agree with that, but i believe Bee is on a level above them and is more on Nagato's level then their level. Thats why Naruto can only surpass Bee by achieving full control over the Kyuubi. Bee is a bigger milestone and represents a higher level then Itachi, J-man, Oro, etc...


Until Bee gets new feats, he is still similar in level to Jiraiya, Oro, Itachi and Danzo. Which isn't something to be ashamed of.



> True its not; But the fact that they need these advantages suggest that Bee is indeed a step above them to some degree.


Just because they need prep in order to become powerful, doesn't mean they are on a level lower then him. 

I mean I could call having no knowledge on Kirabi or no prep before hand and advantage for Kirabi, that doesn't take away from his winning does it? Prep and intel just shows which ninja can be more resourceful. 



> Again i totally agree, but at the same time the fact that all of them need Prep/Intel to win against Killer Bee and even then it just gives them a small chance to win suggest Killer Bee is on another level.


I covered this in the response above. I think even with no knowledge and no prep, they have a chance to win, even though that advantages Kirabi, and not the other people.

Just because some ninja need prep tp become powerful does not take away from their actual power.



> Like for instance you don't put Nagato/Pain on the same level as J-man even though the manga states J-man would beat Nagato/Pain with Intel; The reason being that Jiraiya needs that intel to win, which implies Nagato/Pain is a step above J-man.


I don't think even with knowledge Jiraiya can take an unrestricted Pain, it would be close no doubt, but Pain is just that powerful with Gedo Mazo, Chibaku Tensei, Cho Shinra Tensei, Asura's Laser, Cerberus etc. I think Edo Orochimaru, Hermit Jiraiya, Itachi, Danzo, and Kirabi can all give Pain a run for his money with full knowledge and prep, but I think he is just that powerful. Using the manga, Oro at his strongest was with Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama so I use that when mentioning Edo Orochimaru.


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## Big Mom (Jun 3, 2010)

Is this Danzo or Killer Bee match still going on?

Oy, lets call them equal. Killer Bee has 5/10 chances to win, as does Danzo. 

Though I do see, which has a higher...?


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## Smiley (Jun 3, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Is this Danzo or Killer Bee match still going on?
> 
> Oy, lets call them equal. Killer Bee has 5/10 chances to win, as does Danzo.
> 
> Though I do see, which has a higher...?



Yeah Like Danzo Has A Counter To A Hachibi Bijuu Blast.


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2010)

> Yet Kisame still reacted to it. I honestly doubt it would take lss then a second, at least one second.


Kisame is amazing at close Combat you should keep this in mind and its the actual Shunshin that took less then a second the follow up attack made it take a bit longer



> Just an example of some of his feats. These were in base, he reacted to Susano coming out which happens extremely fast, it reacted to a Raiga Bomb and Kirin


Danzo was still injured by it and its not like Sasuke attacked him with it. He simply summoned it out and then after that Danzo jumped back. Not to impressive to me.



> He was reacting to the Susano arrow with the same speed as Kakashi, who had a Sharingan out and has incredible feats.


It was not the same speed as Kakashi; Susano'o was further away from Danzo went it shot its arrow giving Danzo more time to react. 



> . With Shuishi's Sharingan. Sasuke blitzed him after getting healed by Karin, and Danzo still has that hole in his chest, and was running out of chakra.


You do realize Sasuke was pretty much blind at that point and hardly at his top Speed. 



> He might be able to tank the first, but definitely not the second, that would rip through him.


I very much doubt it; Your talking about what is likely a C-Rank Elemental Jutsu. Bee would tank that shit pretty casually. 



> Like I said, IMO he only needs his Futons and Mokutons to undo the seal. Obviously we have different opinions.


I don't think he could do it with Fuutons and Mokutons, but even if i were to assume he could; Thats not a good thing. Spamming Fuuton and Mokuton is going to drain the shit out of his chakra. As Karin Says using one Mokuton caused his chakra levels to plummet and it was shown that using Mokuton is very dangerous for him. 

Basically even if this work Danzo would start the battle of much lower on chakra then normal and probably wouldn't even be able to hold Izanagi for a long time afterwards.



> And gives him his other big weapon. But like I said, IMO he won't need it.


The only way i see him not needing it is if he Uses Baku and Spams Mokuton a few times to stall out Bee. In which case Danzo would loose Baku and he would start out low on chakra. 



> Like I said, Danzo's reactions feats will allow him to react to Kirabi's speed and his swordwork would be blown away by his Futons.


Killer Bee is faster and Better at Kenjutsu then Sasuke and Danzo got totally Blitzed by Sasuke. Probably with Shishui's Sharigan he would be able to react to Sasuke's Speed, but not to Killer Bee's Shunshin.



> He did that when A) he didn't have to react good with Izanagi guarding him. and B) he had the same speed as Sasuke here and he perfectly reacted to him, he instead of getting a hit, he placed a binding seal on Sasuke.


He Managed to Grab Sasuke's Throat, but that doesn't change the fact that he was Blitzed. If he was truly capable of reacting to Sasuke's speed he would have been able to grab his throat and place the seal w/o getting cut in half. 



> I seriously doubt Kirabi can dodge one his Futon while charging him, then turn that dodge into a Shunshin to get behind Danzo. Shunshin behind him after a Futon would be really hard, then do it without Danzo noticing or reacting.


Killer Bee Shunshined to the top of a mountain several feat away and in the opposite direction that was behind his attacker(Juugo). I'm pretty sure what i suggest would be a piece of cake for Killer Bee. 



> He has a chance with any conditions, but Kirabi has the advantage, since it is a bad match-up.


I still Maintain he has Zero Chance w/o Knowledge and Prep or a Good Battle-Field. You are really underestimating the fact that it took Danzo an entire chapter to undo his seal. Your underestimating the fact that it then takes additional hand-seals to activate Izanagi. 

Killer Bee would Blitz him if Danzo didn't have any Knowledge the same exact way Sasuke blitzed him. Danzo would ether be forced to use Shishui's eye or Mokuton and Baku to even get the Seal off and do the necessary hand-seals at which point his chakra would be drained and one of his greatest weapons would be gone.

The Fuuton and Wind Combo would never work in my opinion as its simply foolish to use a Vacuum Jutsu to draw the Second Strongest Demon into Close Range. Hell i think that Full Hachibi and V2 could tank that Fuuton Combo anyway; Their probably more durable then Sasuke's incomplete Susano'o.

Especially if one takes into consideration the events of the recent chapter

But its a difference in opinion i suppose. 



> It allows for an opening though, and with Chou Oodama Rasengan that opening could be crucial.


What Crucial opening; Hachibi would immediately break him out and when Jiriaya thinks his is Captured in it he would just get Laraite to the Stomach. 



> Like the above it allows for an opening, and without full body raiton, it will be hard to break it out.


Aside from Raiton i am very doubtful that a Yomi Numa could hold V2. And Doubt Jiraiya is going to be able to attack fast enough before Bee can escape. 



> Well I think it would, if played right.


After this recent chapter i doubt something of that level would even scratch V2 or Full Hachibi. I mean it fucking blocked....Spoilers....



> true, but it could also affect his choice of attack like not to use Shunshin, or raiton powered blades etc.


Yeah as i said essentially a delay tactic.



> Until Bee gets new feats, he is still similar in level to Jiraiya, Oro, Itachi and Danzo. Which isn't something to be ashamed of.


Yet he would beat all of them and even has the potential of beating them fairly easily at that; Such as before Danzo unlocks his seal for Izanagi, Before Jiraiya enters HM, and Ambushing Itachi after Genjutsu.

I agree it isn't something to be ashamed off, which is why i said i respect your opinion; However i just don't agree with it. 



> Just because they need prep in order to become powerful, doesn't mean they are on a level lower then him.
> 
> I mean I could call having no knowledge on Kirabi or no prep before hand and advantage for Kirabi, that doesn't take away from his winning does it? Prep and intel just shows which ninja can be more resourceful.


Yes if a Ninja actually goes out and gets the Intel or researches it, but if your just giving him Full Knowledge/Intel in a hypothetical battle it is an advantage in favor of that character. 

Prep is more debatable i agree. But if your letting those characters have prep and start with their Seal undone or HM; Then let Bee start in V2 or Full Hachibi mode, in which case he would still win. 



> I don't think even with knowledge Jiraiya can take an unrestricted Pain, it would be close no doubt, but Pain is just that powerful with Gedo Mazo, Chibaku Tensei, Cho Shinra Tensei, Asura's Laser, Cerberus etc. I think Edo Orochimaru, Hermit Jiraiya, Itachi, Danzo, and Kirabi can all give Pain a run for his money with full knowledge and prep, but I think he is just that powerful. Using the manga, Oro at his strongest was with Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama so I use that when mentioning Edo Orochimaru.


But the Manga Suggest that Jiraiya with intel would win; In-fact its states it outright.

As for the others i think they would all win with Full Knowledge except for Danzo. Bee could win w/o Knowledge under normal conditions since the only things Pain has that would beat him is CT which is very hard to get off against a fast passed enemy like Bee.


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## Big Mom (Jun 4, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> Yeah Like Danzo Has A Counter To A Hachibi Bijuu Blast.



Its called Izanagi.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm changing my list a little,

*Tier 1:*
_1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara (Prime)_

*Tier 2:*
_ 3. Yakushi Kabuto (Quintuple Akatsuki Edo Tensei Included)
4. Uchiha Itachi ("True Power")
5. Orochimaru (Triple Hokage Edo Tensei included)
6. Pein Rikudō (synced with Gedō Mazō)
7. Shimura Danzō (Shisui's Eye included)_

*Tier 3:*
_8. Uchiha Itachi (handicapped)
9. Uchiha Sasuke (no Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan)
10. Uzamaki Naruto (Kyūbi berserk included)
11. Hoshigaki Kisame
12. Kirābī
13. Hermit Mode Jiraiya
14. Namikaze Minato 
15. Hatake Kakashi (Kamui included)_

*Tier 4:*
_16. Akasuna no Sasori
17. Deidara
18. Ē
19. Kakuzu
20. Sabaku no Gaara_


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## Sanbi (Jun 5, 2010)

Some hype included here, with the ones with no feats to back up their suggested power. Some are interchangeable, like the top 5 in tier 3, and I didn't include people with little feats and hype, like Yagura, Tobirama, Hanzo and Sakumo.

*Tier 1:*
_1. Senju Hashirama
2. Uchiha Madara (Prime)_

*Tier 2:*
_3. Yakushi Kabuto (Edo Tensei Included)
4. Naruto Uzumaki (Kyūbi Fully Controlled)
5. Sasuke Uchiha (Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan)
6. Pein Rikudō
7. Namikaze Minato_

*Tier 3:*
_8. Hermit Mode Jiraiya
9. Kirābī
10. Itachi Uchiha
11. Edo Orochimaru 
12. Shimura Danzō
13. Senju Tsunade (Hype)
14. Ē (Hype)
15. Kisame Hoshigaki_

*Tier 4:*
_16. Akasuna no Sasori
17. Deidara
18. Hatake Kakashi 
19. Kakuzu
20. Sabaku no Gaara_


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_I don't understand how you put Orochimaru so low if he controls someone from the first tier, another Hokage, and a third unknown individual. With hype he should at least be in tier two._


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## Sanbi (Jun 5, 2010)

While Orochimaru could easily make the top of tier three, I forgot to put the usual "some are interchangeable like the top 5 in tier 3", with the Hokage's Feats while in Edo Tensei, they don't strike me as the same strength when they were in their prime. He also doesn't strike me as having the same power as people like Kyubi Controlled SM Naruto, or EMS Sasuke. Pain and Minato also should be stronger then him.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

How come Hiruzen Sarutobi didn't make any of your lists?


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## Sanbi (Jun 5, 2010)

Well, I don't really know where to put him in Prime, and Old Sarutobi doesn't make it. I might put him up though.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

*Tier 0:*
_0.Rikudou sennin_

*Tier 1:*
_1. Senju Hashirama
2. Madara (Prime)
3.Naruto (Kyūbi Controll)/Sasuke(EMS)
5. Kabuto_

*Tier 2:*
_6.Madara(Current)
7.Itachi Healthy
8.Nagato 
9.Killer Bee_

*Tier 3:*
_10.Sasuke(MS)
11.Naruto(SM)
12.Hiruzen Sarutobi(prime)
13.Orochimaru
14.Minato
15.Jiraiya_

*Tier 4:*
_16.Danzou
17.Kisame
18.Sasori
19.Raikage
20.Deidara/Kakashi_


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> *Tier 0:*
> _0.Rikudou sennin_
> 
> *Tier 1:*
> ...



1) why?
2) why?
3) alright
4) same
5) HOW? 



> *Tier 2:*
> _6.Madara(Current)
> 7.Itachi Healthy
> 8.Nagato
> 9.Killer Bee_



6) He has already been shown to be weak
7) HOW THE HELL IS ITACHI OVER EVERYONE?
8) HE SHOULD BE HIGHER
9) WHY is killer Bee so high?


> *Tier 3:*
> _10.Sasuke(MS)
> 11.Naruto(SM)
> 12.Hiruzen Sarutobi(prime)
> ...


10) k
11) meh, put him equal to Sasuke
12) Okay so being stated to be the strongest and proving his superior power means nothing.
13) OVER MINATO????
14) Why so low?
15) k



> *Tier 4:*
> _16.Danzou
> 17.Kisame
> 18.Sasori
> ...



16) Why is he so low?
17) Why so low?
18) why so low
19) why so low?
20) Kakashi is NOT equal to Deidara. He is weaker.



Sanbi- 
Old Sarutobi can make the list? How can Hidan and Kakashi make it yet he cannot.


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## Sanbi (Jun 5, 2010)

Kakashi has Kamui, and Hidan did not make my list.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

I think you overrate Kakashi Sanbi. I mean, over Kakuzu, Gaara, and Old Sarutobi?


How many times has Kakashi used a Kamui to succesfully kill someone?


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## Immortal (Jun 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> I'm changing my list a little,
> 
> *Tier 1:*
> _1. Senju Hashirama
> ...



I like this list a LOT


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Itachi over Pain makes it worthless


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Also, Sanbi, about you saying you didn't know where to place Hiruzen prime:

How would you know where to place Hashirama, he showed less than Hiruzen.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> 1) why?
> 2) why?
> 3) alright
> 4) same
> 5) HOW?



1.He defeated Madara and kyuubi at Vote,had a bijuu army under his controll.
2.He was the strongest Uchiha ever,could summon the fox and Onoki said that Madara(prime) can solo the kages.
5.He has Army of Akatsuki members,Nagato,Sasori,Deidara and Kakuzu.



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> 6) He has already been shown to be weak
> 7) HOW THE HELL IS ITACHI OVER EVERYONE?
> 8) HE SHOULD BE HIGHER
> 9) WHY is killer Bee so high?



6.He was powerfull enough that Minato could not do anything against him.
7.Because he is healthy and I want him to be.
8.Maybe.
9.He defeated Kisame while he was holding back,he can controll his tailed beast and owned  Sasuke



> 10) k
> 11) meh, put him equal to Sasuke
> 12) Okay so being stated to be the strongest and proving his superior power means nothing.
> 13) OVER MINATO????
> ...



11.He said that he can't beat him and he needed the fox to do it.
12.He is overated and he was weak on Genjutsu(Darkness Genjutsu) so everyone above him can pwn him.
13.With two Kages on his sade he is above Minato and Minato's kunai jutsu are useless against him.
14.He is overrated and he was surprissed by Naruto.




> 16) Why is he so low?
> 17) Why so low?
> 18) why so low
> 19) why so low?
> 20) Kakashi is NOT equal to Deidara. He is weaker.



16.Sasuke defeated him and I don't like him
17.He said himself that he is no match for Jiraiya
18.He was pwned by Chyio and Sakura.
19.He can maybe be higher-17th.
20.Maybe just Maybe


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> *Tier 0:*
> _0.Rikudou sennin_
> 
> *Tier 1:*
> ...



Nagato is too low along with Danzo and Minato. Itachi is too high.


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## Kisame (Jun 5, 2010)

*Tier 0*

Rikudo Sennin

*Tier 1*

1-Hiruzen (Prime)
2-Minato
3-Hashirama
4-Madara (Prime)
5-Kabuto
6-Naruto (Full Kyuubi Control)
7-Sasuke (EMS)
8-Nagato

*Tier 2*

1-Itachi & Jiraiya
2-Kisame
3-Danzo
4-Raikage
5-Bee
6-Orochimaru

*Tier 3*

1-Hanzo
2-Kakuzu
3-Kakashi
4-Sasori
5-Deidara


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Nagato is too low along with Danzo and Minato. Itachi is too high.



_Minato is overrated for the time being. He has a 5 in speed, can teleport via seals, and his strongest offensive technique (that doesn't cost his life) is a normal Rasengan. Mid tier Akatsuki could give him a run for his money going off of current feats, but then again, mid tier Akatsuki are up there with the strongest Kages. My point being that he wouldn't dominate in the same manner that those around him would like Hashirama, Madara, Nagato, etc._


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> *Tier 0*
> 
> Rikudo Sennin
> 
> ...



Best I have seen so far though I would put Hanzo high and Kakashi lower.


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## Kisame (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Best I have seen so far though I would put Hanzo high and Kakashi lower.




thanks,but tbh im not sure if kakashi can really defeat sasori

btw wheres ur list?


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> _Minato is overrated for the time being. He has a 5 in speed, can teleport via seals, and his strongest offensive technique (that doesn't cost his life) is a normal Rasengan. Mid tier Akatsuki could give him a run for his money going off of current feats, but then again, mid tier Akatsuki are up there with the strongest Kages. My point being that he wouldn't dominate in the same manner that those around him would like Hashirama, Madara, Nagato, etc._



I agree, but since his list incorporated hype, (Hiruzen Prime, Madara Prime, ect.) Minato should be up there as well going by just hype alone.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Nagato is too low along with Danzo and Minato. Itachi is too high.



I don't see who will Danzou defeat from the people abeve him,the same for Minato he can win but just with losing his life.



Selim said:


> _Minato is overrated for the time being. He has a 5 in speed, can teleport via seals, and his strongest offensive technique (that doesn't cost his life) is a normal Rasengan. Mid tier Akatsuki could give him a run for his money going off of current feats, but then again, mid tier Akatsuki are up there with the strongest Kages. My point being that he wouldn't dominate in the same manner that those around him would like Hashirama, Madara, Nagato, etc._



 Lol I agree.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> _Minato is overrated for the time being. He has a 5 in speed, can teleport via seals, and his strongest offensive technique (that doesn't cost his life) is a normal Rasengan. Mid tier Akatsuki could give him a run for his money going off of current feats, but then again, mid tier Akatsuki are up there with the strongest Kages. My point being that he wouldn't dominate in the same manner that those around him would like Hashirama, Madara, Nagato, etc._



Right. Because MAdara with the full Kyuubi couldn't kill him.
Mid Tier Akatsuki>Him. Sure. Mmhmm


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> 1.He defeated Madara and kyuubi at Vote,had a bijuu army under his controll.
> 2.He was the strongest Uchiha ever,could summon the fox and Onoki said that Madara(prime) can solo the kages.
> 5.He has Army of Akatsuki members,Nagato,Sasori,Deidara and Kakuzu.


1) Buji army was part of his kekkei genkai but is more of an extra extent than his own actually power since it uses outside forces. Oh and beating Madara means crap sicne we don't know how strong he is.
2) He was stated to be the best, but this was before Itachi, Sasuke, heck even Danzo, possed Sharigan. Also, see hashirama for fox, and Onoki said he didn't need to hide in shadows, never said he could solo the world.
5) So, that is current, and it means he had enough bodies and prep prepared. Plus, they haven't been shown in battle yet.



> 6.He was powerfull enough that Minato could not do anything against him.
> 7.Because he is healthy and I want him to be.
> 8.Maybe.
> 9.He defeated Kisame while he was holding back,he can controll his tailed beast and owned  Sasuke


6) In his current form?
7) Biased much? And healthy means crap, just increases his stamina.
8) ok?
9) He didn't defeat Kisame, his bro saved him and they killed a zetsu clone. wow. He didn't own sasuke, he lost to amaterasu and had to clone himself to survive.






> 11.He said that he can't beat him and he needed the fox to do it.
> 12.He is overated and he was weak on Genjutsu(Darkness Genjutsu) so everyone above him can pwn him.
> 13.With two Kages on his sade he is above Minato and Minato's kunai jutsu are useless against him.
> 14.He is overrated and he was surprissed by Naruto.


11) Okay, which is still part of his power/
12) So is hashirama. And minato. How so? He used teh genjutsu as his own coverup and he almost beat oro, and two kages in old age,
13) Not true. Old Sarutobi beat the two kages, young minato could too.
14) Caused he didnt expect his son to hit him. that was a dream kind of. not the real minato.





> 16.Sasuke defeated him and I don't like him
> 17.He said himself that he is no match for Jiraiya
> 18.He was pwned by Chyio and Sakura.
> 19.He can maybe be higher-17th.
> 20.Maybe just Maybe



16) Sasuke needed Karin and Madara's help to do that. Plus Danzo was holding back. Biased much?
17) But his feats showed he was.
18) So, chiyo and sakura has prep and knowledge and chiyo is very strong.
19) hellz no. he is fast and strong, but not stronger than Kisame.
20) no, just no.


honestly, you have no idea what your talking about right.




Also, @ Garaiuki- 


Assume, each character is at their best and healthy

1) Hiruzen
2) Hashirama
3) Tobirama
4) Minato
5) Nagato/Madara
6) Hiruko(movie)
7) Danzo
8) Kisame
9/10) Itachi/Jiraiya
11/12) Killer Bee/Orochimaru
13) Raikage
14) Sasori/Naruto/Sasuke
15) Deidara
16) Konan
17) Tsunade
18) Kakuzu
19) Kakashi
20) Kabuto(no remains)


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

So, Jiraiya doesn't even made the list?


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Lol I knew I was forgeting someone, okay... edited.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Tier 0:
0.Rikudou sennin

Tier 1:
1. Senju Hashirama
2. Madara (Prime)
3.Naruto (Kyūbi Controll)/Sasuke(EMS)
5. Kabuto

Tier 2:
6.Madara(Current)
7.Itachi Healthy
8.Nagato
9.*Killer Bee*

Tier 3:
10.Sasuke(MS)
11.Naruto(SM)
12.Hiruzen Sarutobi(prime)
13.Orochimaru
14.Minato
15.Jiraiya

Tier 4:
16.*Danzou*
17.Kisame
18.Sasori
19.Raikage
20.Deidara/Kakashi



> I don't see who will Danzou defeat from the people abeve him,the same for Minato he can win but just with losing his life.



That's the thing, I feel some of your choices are too low. Danzo is easily on par with Bee, yet they are so far apart on your list.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Bette,r but Kisame should be bumped down, Hiruzen. He's not above Itachi and Jiraiya.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Tier 0:
> 0.Rikudou sennin
> 
> Tier 1:
> ...



Oh good gravy, I thought that was YOUR list Thunder. lol

But ydo you agree that Hiruzen prime shoudl be number 12?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Right. Because MAdara with the full Kyuubi couldn't kill him. Mid Tier Akatsuki>Him. Sure. Mmhmm



_Wrong. Minato sacrificed his life to steal Madara's pet. It's a neat suicidal jutsu, but still a suicidal jutsu. Gai with all Eight Gates isn't in tier 1 despite in all likeliness being more powerful than the majority of tier 2._


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Bette,r but Kisame should be bumped down, Hiruzen. He's not above Itachi and Jiraiya.



How so?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> _Wrong. Minato sacrificed his life to steal Madara's pet.
> 
> It's a neat suicidal jutsu, but still a suicidal jutsu.
> 
> Gai with all Eight Gates isn't in tier 1 despite being more powerful than tier 2._



The fanbook states that Minato had to fight the Kyuubi and Madara first. And thus, he won.

And Hiruzen? Kisame ADMITTED he was weaker than Jiraiya


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> 1) Hiruzen
> 2) Hashirama
> 3) Tobirama
> 4) Minato
> ...



Please, give me an explanation why you put Tobirama so freaking high? 

Why is Orochimaru #11 or #12 while Hiruzen is #1? You know that Orochimaru killed Hiruzen right? 

You put Kisame above Itachi???????????????????????? OMG..... Kisame admit that Itachi was the stronger one. And he is the senior in the group. 

Uhm, and one more thing. May i ask you where Madara, Sasuke and Naruto are?


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> Please, give me an explanation why you put Tobirama so freaking high?
> 
> Why is Orochimaru #11 or #12 while Hiruzen is #1? You know that Orochimaru killed Hiruzen right?
> 
> ...



Tobirama was trained by his brother, mastered water ninjutsu and has Edo Tensei.

Yes, but he needed Edo Tensei and even then he barley won. Besides Oro fought OLD hiruzen.

Kisame has enough chakra to outlast Itachi and his sharigan and samehada fights genjutsu.

Did I forget them?





Lighty- Actions speak louder than words.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Oh good gravy, I thought that was YOUR list Thunder. lol
> 
> But ydo you agree that Hiruzen prime shoudl be number 12?



No, no. This is my list from a few days ago:

1)Rikudou Sennin
2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
3)Madara Uchiha (prime)
4)Kabuto Yakushi
5)Pain
6)Minato Namikaze
7)Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)
8)Jiraiya/Itachi Uchiha
9)Orochimaru (With Tensei)
10)Killer Bee/Danzo Shimura
11)Naruto Uzumaki/Sasuke Uchiha (No EMS, Kyuubi)
12)Orochimaru
13)Kisame Hoshigaki
14)Raikage
15)Sasori
16)Deidara
17)Kakazu
18)Gaara
19)Tsunade
20)Kakashi Hakate


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Assume, each character is at their best and healthy

1) Hiruzen
2) Hashirama
3) Tobirama
4) Minato
5) Nagato/Madara(madara being better though so i guess he woudl be 4.5)
6) Hiruko(movie)
7) Danzo
8) Kisame
9/10) Itachi/Jiraiya
11/12) Killer Bee/Orochimaru
13) Raikage
14) Sasori/Naruto/Sasuke
15) Deidara
16) Konan
17) Tsunade
18) Kakuzu
19) Kakashi
20) Kabuto(no remains)


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Kisame admitted Jiraiya is his better...


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 5, 2010)

I think Minato is pretty strong.

He had a flee on sight order in the third(?) Ninja war. That alone speaks volumes of his strength. He's apparently got the Chakra levels to summon Gamabunta(who can cause a few people on these lists a bit of trouble) and seal a Chakra beast like the Kyuubi. He also has jutsus like Hirashin, Shiki Fuujin and Rasengan. The combo Hirashin+Rasengan alone would grant him a win against a good number of people on the "top 20" list of most people and if he can't win, he can at least make it a draw by using Shiki Fuujin. His base speed was compared to the Raikage's whilst he was in his Raiton shroud. 

He's also a genius outside of combat. He was the creator of Hirashin(a space/time jutsu which is only surpassed by Madara's and once Minato touches his opponent he can warp to him at any time), Shiki Fuujin and the predecessor of Rasenshuriken.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Assume, each character is at their best and healthy
> 
> 1) Hiruzen
> 2) Hashirama
> ...



I have a few questions about this list, but I guess I should start here: why is Kisame above Itachi and Jiraiya? Kisame admitted he was inferior to both of them.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Tobirama was trained by his brother, mastered water ninjutsu and has Edo Tensei.



So what? And you don't know that he was trained by Hashirama. Anyway, that doesn't matter. Still, how can you put him above a rin'negan user!? 
Tobirama doesn't fit in top ten.




Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Yes, but he needed Edo Tensei and even then he barley won. Besides Oro fought OLD hiruzen.



So what if he needed Edo Tensei? Edo Tensei = a jutsu. 




Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Kisame has enough chakra to outlast Itachi and his sharigan and samehada fights genjutsu.



Don't you get it!? KISAME ADMITTED THAT ITACHI WAS STRONGER. Samehada fights genjutsu? Where did you get that from? And Kisame has no answer to Itachi's Susano'o 



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Did I forget them?



Yes, you did.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> 1) Buji army was part of his kekkei genkai but is more of an extra extent than his own actually power since it uses outside forces. Oh and beating Madara means crap sicne we don't know how strong he is.
> 2) He was stated to be the best, but this was before Itachi, Sasuke, heck even Danzo, possed Sharigan. Also, see hashirama for fox, and Onoki said he didn't need to hide in shadows, never said he could solo the world.
> 5) So, that is current, and it means he had enough bodies and prep prepared. Plus, they haven't been shown in battle yet.



1.Bijuus are part of his powers.Kekkei Gankai or not he is the most powerfull shinobi ever.And we know how powerfull Madara was:EMS+Nine Tails.

2. Madara said that he needed Sasuke to weaken the kages and Onoki said that he(in his prime) can do it alone.

5.Oh please 5 Akatsuki members and +plus the six coffin.




> 6) In his current form?
> 7) Biased much? And healthy means crap, just increases his stamina.
> 8) ok?
> 9) He didn't defeat Kisame, his bro saved him and they killed a zetsu clone. wow. He didn't own sasuke, he lost to amaterasu and had to clone himself to survive.



6.Yes in his current form.
7.Healthy means much:



Sniffers said:


> Itachi hasn't been bloodlusted and we've certainly not see him at full power (actually he could do _much_ better). It has been made sufficiently clear in the manga, but I made this comprehensive guide to make it even clearer (actually it isn't possible to make it clearer, but whatever I made it anyway):
> 
> *Zetsu's statements*
> Zetsu:
> ...



9.Oh he owned Sasuke 2 or 3 times before that.And he was able to fight Kisame while he was holding beck.





> 11) Okay, which is still part of his power/
> 12) So is hashirama. And minato. How so? He used teh genjutsu as his own coverup and he almost beat oro, and two kages in old age,
> 13) Not true. Old Sarutobi beat the two kages, young minato could too.
> 14) Caused he didnt expect his son to hit him. that was a dream kind of. not the real minato.



11.K.
12.Hashirama is not weak on genjutsu he fought Madara without being killed so it means that he has genjutsu defance.Minato would break the genjutsu because of his reflexes.He beat the kages because of Plot.
13.Sandaime won because of plot no jutsu.When he was in genjutsu Hashirama(not mindless) could have own him.Minato can do it but just with losing his life.
14.He was surprised by Naruto in terms of power.




> 16) Sasuke needed Karin and Madara's help to do that. Plus Danzo was holding back. Biased much?
> 17) But his feats showed he was.
> 18) So, chiyo and sakura has prep and knowledge and chiyo is very strong.
> 19) hellz no. he is fast and strong, but not stronger than Kisame.
> 20) no, just no.



16.When Madara or Karin halped him?And when Danzou was holding back?
17.He was owned when he was in the toad-if Itachi was not there he would have been dead.
18.And Sasori had knowledge.Chiyo is strong but he was not in her prime.
19.Than he should be 18th?
20. 


honestly, you have no idea what your talking about right.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> I have a few questions about this list, but I guess I should start here: why is Kisame above Itachi and Jiraiya? Kisame admitted he was inferior to both of them.



Probably because he doesn't pay attention the manga.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_I never said Minato wasn't strong,

His Base Speed was compared to *base* Ē, which is good, but not great. Almost all of Akatsuki is comprised of geniuses when you get right down to it, and the entire Uchiha clan had a flee on sight type of vibe about them according to Chiyo. Furthermore, any Akatsuki member, any Kage leveled shinobi, even Sasuke at the beginning of the timeskip, could decimate hundreds or thousands of fodder ninjas with ease and would thus have flee on sight orders during wartime._


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> That's the thing, I feel some of your choices are too low. Danzo is easily on par with Bee, yet they are so far apart on your list.



Killer Bee will destroy him with Taijuts,Speed and stranght the only chance for Danzou would be the mokuton,but we never saw him controll bijuu so we can't be sure that he can.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

No, actually, his REFLEXES were compared to A's. 

Minato has been praised as really the number 1 genius to boot. His feats in it speak for themselves

And evidence IWa's elite shinobi in wartime are fodder now?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_ANBU are elite ninja yet they are fodder. Madara outmaneuvered Minato. Reflexes is fundamentally speed at that level. The faster your body begins to move, the better._


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Madara outmaneuvered him? Which is why he had to flee and lost the Kyuubi?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Minato couldn't do anything against him.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 5, 2010)

ANBUs are only fodder because most of the time they go up against really strong people. 

And Madara never outmaneuvered him.

And SUB, no one ever said Minato could ever defeat Madara. But current Madara isn't all that strong, considering he has no offense apart from punches and kicks(which he needs to be solid to use).


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Madara: Fled, lost the Kyuubi.

Sounds like Minato did something


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Minato said that hamself i just wanted to tell you.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_No one said Minato didn't do anything, but Minato said he couldn't do a thing. Minato is dead, however. Madara is not. It's pretty clear who won, but just in case you need more evidence, Minato's words to Naruto about Madara seeing through everything he did should suffice._


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

No he didn't. He said Madara saw through what he did. There's a difference.

Why is Minato dead? He chose to sacrifice himself for Konoha. Did Madara achieve his goals? Nope


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

And Naruto interpreted what Minato told him that he could not do anything against Madara.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_The only reason Madara didn't achieve his goals is plot though. You understand that, right? Akatsuki could have *easily* crushed Konoha at any time up until Itachi started playing double agent five years later. Kakuzu, Sasori, Orochimaru, Nagato: more than enough.

Objectively, putting the Fox in an infant was a very stupid thing to do._


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Ah, 'plot,' beloved crutch...
Here's a question: When did Akatsuki actually form?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

I'll find the link*


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> So what? And you don't know that he was trained by Hashirama. Anyway, that doesn't matter. Still, how can you put him above a rin'negan user!?
> Tobirama doesn't fit in top ten.



They were brothers. They both trained Sarutobi etc.. They clearly trained togetehr.  How can someone put Hashirama and madara above a rinnegan user?



> So what if he needed Edo Tensei? Edo Tensei = a jutsu.



Yes. But Sarutobi handled it veyr well.





> Don't you get it!? KISAME ADMITTED THAT ITACHI WAS STRONGER. Samehada fights genjutsu? Where did you get that from? And Kisame has no answer to Itachi's Susano'o


 Actions speak louder than words. Samehada can break kisame out of genjutsu. its called chakra suction to handle susanoo as susanoo is chakra.



> Yes, you did.


sorry.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Killer Bee will destroy him with Taijuts,Speed and stranght the only chance for Danzou would be the mokuton,but we never saw him controll bijuu so we can't be sure that he can.



I personally agree that Bee has the edge, but they should at least be next to each other.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Kisame can be broken out by Samehada?

Why didn't it do that against Kurenai?


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

I think the whole "Kisame can break out of Gen because of Samehada" is pure BS.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_As I said,  long before he assaulted Konoha under the Yondaime Hokage. Orochimaru would have long since defected and most likely was partnered with Sasori at this time. Sasori likely killed the Saindaime Kazekage at this time. Kakuzu is 100 years old and was most likely a member. Zetsu was still obviously around. This would be about around decade after Hanzō blackened Nagato's heart so Madara likely reached out to him by this time, and then there would in all likeliness be other, unknown members.

So like I said. Madara could have easily completed his destruction, but then we would have no story. Madara could have telported in to baby Naruto's room and snatched him right out of the craddle before teleporting away to extract the Fox. Putting the beast in an infant wasn't smart, but made a cool story._


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> 1.Bijuus are part of his powers.Kekkei Gankai or not he is the most powerfull shinobi ever.And we know how powerfull Madara was:EMS+Nine Tails.



Not really. They are extras and other living creatures. and how do you know he is?



> 2. Madara said that he needed Sasuke to weaken the kages and Onoki said that he(in his prime) can do it alone.


  Yes, in his prime he could weaken them on his own....


> 5.Oh please 5 Akatsuki members and +plus the six coffin.



which means 6 bodies. Plus, he knew Madara wouldn't fight him.





> 6.Yes in his current form.
> 7.Healthy means much:
> 
> [/QUOTE[
> ...


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kisame can be broken out by Samehada?
> 
> Why didn't it do that against Kurenai?



Kisame wasnt trapped by Kurenei.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> I have a few questions about this list, but I guess I should start here: why is Kisame above Itachi and Jiraiya? Kisame admitted he was inferior to both of them.



Kisame has superior chakra and can outlast Itachi.

Kisame has superior ninjutsu taijutsu. He can also absorb chakra via Samehada.

Actions speak louder than words.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> Probably because he doesn't pay attention the manga.



What the heck is your problem? Like honestly try speaking nice to someone once in a while, escpecially someone who has been here longer and is wiser.


Honestly, I never even talked to you and you come here with a fricken attitude towards me and everything. 

Back off little man.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Kisame has superior chakra and can outlast Itachi.
> 
> Kisame has superior ninjutsu taijutsu. He can also absorb chakra via Samehada.
> 
> Actions speak louder than words.



Itachi uses _Tsukuyomi_ on Kisame. Pretty much the end of the fight.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Itachi uses _Tsukuyomi_ on Kisame. Pretty much the end of the fight.



Tsukuyomi has a weakness. And with kisame's outragous chakra levels as well as Samehada, he could possibly brake free. Besides, Kisame can fight from a distance.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_Kisame doesn't have superior Taijutsu, and it has been repeatedly stated that you need a Sharingan to counter Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Chakra amount, kais, pain tolerance, willpower, etc. is all complete bullshit with no support whatsoever._


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Selim said:


> Kisame doesn't have superior Taijutsu, and it has been repeatedly stated that you need a Sharingan to counter Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Chakra amount, pain tolerance, willpower, etc. is all complete bullshit with no support whatsoever.



Or superior chakra. Otherwise, Kisame can take it. As many people have.

Stamina helps fight the after effect.

And Kisame does. He has superior strength and fougth on terms with gai.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Tsukuyomi has a weakness. And with kisame's outragous chakra levels as well as Samehada, he could possibly brake free. Besides, Kisame can fight from a distance.



To break out of _Tsukuyomi_, you need the Uchiha Bloodline and the Sharingan. Kisame has neither.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 5, 2010)

_Stamina does not help the after effect. That's more unsupported bull. It has nothing to do with the physical body, it doesn't make you tired, it breaks your mind, and your spirit. Even when you have the Sharingan it puts you in the hospital for weeks and you can no longer stand._


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

Kisame was seen being caught by Kurenai's genjutsu...


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Not really. They are extras and other living creatures. and how do you know he is?



So I guess that Nine tails is not Naruto's power.And how do I know what?



> Yes, in his prime he could weaken them on his own....



He could pwn him


which means 6 bodies. Plus, he knew Madara wouldn't fight him.



> 6) Highly unlikley
> 7) No, only in stamina



Yes it was in his current form-Madara said that the wound from Hashirama where to big.So It was not Madara(prime) who owned Madara.



> 9)What?!



I'm not going to search the pages now-Killer Bee defeated Sasuke and he needed Team Taka.





> 12) I never said he was. Sarutobi used the genjutsu to shroad himself so he could use Shiki Fujin. Plot? No, it was skill.
> 13) No he did not. That isnt plot, its skill.
> 14) Even so, that doesn't mean Naruto beat him.



12.He will never break Sharingan Genjutsu
13.If	Hashirama used Mokuton Orochimaru would have defeated Sandaime but than plot the kages decided to play with him and use taijutsu.
14.Minato can probably win with Death God



> 16) Karin told him the secret to Izanagi and Danzo said he was saving power for Madara.
> 17) Not really. He would took jiraiya.
> 18) He had knowledge of Chiyo only.
> 19) Keep as is...?



16.Karin did figure it out on her own, but sasuke had figured it out long before her. When she was trying to tell him the secret sasuke interrupted her and said it himself. Also if you go to page 13 tobi even says that sasuke must have figured it out and was forcing danzo to keep using his eyes by attacking with his strongest susanoo.

And saving powers for Madara means that he just wanted to save eyes for Madara but Sasuke defeated him because he was stronger.

17.How?
18.That is enough.Chiyo was stronger than Sakura.
19.To keep him on 19th.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

@Thunder- Yes, but Kisame has the stamina to survive the after effects

@Selim- Not true. Kakashi, Sasuke, and orochimaru have survive tsukiyomi

@Lighty- Manga page?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Itachi never used tsukiyomi on Orochimaru,he was not trying to kill Kakashi and Sasuke survived because he is Uchiha and Itachi was not trying to kill him.


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> @Thunder- Yes, but Kisame has the stamina to survive the after effects
> 
> @Selim- Not true. Kakashi, Sasuke, and orochimaru have survive tsukiyomi
> 
> @Lighty- Manga page?



What does stamina have to do with it? Take a look at the Databook entry:

NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
User: Uchiha Itachi
Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none

Main text

Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!

Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world's common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem*, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, *the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.*

Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, *the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.*

Captions

-An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one's heart and soul!!

-The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.

Picture comments

-The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they've never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world's principles themselves obey the caster's beck and call.

-Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.

-Only those of Uchiha blood... Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?

-The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency. 

Kisame's psyche will be broken.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> So I guess that Nine tails is not Naruto's power.And how do I know what?


  It is sealed within him so yes it is.



> He could pwn him



how do you know that?






> Yes it was in his current form-Madara said that the wound from Hashirama where to big.So It was not Madara(prime) who owned Madara.



So, it was obvious Minato fougth the kyuubi only.




> I'm not going to search the pages now-Killer Bee defeated Sasuke and he needed Team Taka.


 Because you know you are wrong.

Though its anime: 







> 12.He will never break Sharingan Genjutsu
> 13.If	Hashirama used Mokuton Orochimaru would have defeated Sandaime but than plot the kages decided to play with him and use taijutsu.
> 14.Minato can probably win with Death God


12) What does that have to do with Hashirama vs Sarutobi?
13) he did use Mokuton! 
14) He wouldn't need death god!



> 16.Karin did figure it out on her own, but sasuke had figured it out long before her. When she was trying to tell him the secret sasuke interrupted her and said it himself. Also if you go to page 13 tobi even says that sasuke must have figured it out and was forcing danzo to keep using his eyes by attacking with his strongest susanoo.
> 
> And saving powers for Madara means that he just wanted to save eyes for Madara but Sasuke defeated him because he was stronger.


16)- He had an idea, but Karin confirmed it. Then he acted upon that idea.
Yes, but that was after Karin told him.
Which would have given Danzo more Izanagi, and more chances to kill Sasuke.


> 17.How?
> 18.That is enough.Chiyo was stronger than Sakura.
> 19.To keep him on 19th.


17) Chakra suction, fusion, dome, etc...
18) But Sakura did damage in that fight. 
19) ...


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> They were brothers. They both trained Sarutobi etc.. They clearly trained togetehr.  How can someone put Hashirama and madara above a rinnegan user?



Because they got enough hype and feats. But i do not put them above Nagato.








Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Actions speak louder than words. Samehada can break kisame out of genjutsu. its called chakra suction to handle susanoo as susanoo is chakra.



Why are you speculating? Bring facts! While Itachi has Susano'o on, KISAME can't get near Itachi. Itachi has the sword and the Shield in the way. And why do i bring Susano'o against Kisame? MANGEKYOU is not needed.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> Because they got enough hype and feats. But i do not put them above Nagato.



hashirama and tobirama above nagato? this is true. how come you dont udnerstand?

[/QUOTE]
Why are you speculating? Bring facts! While Itachi has Susano'o on, KISAME can't get near Itachi. Itachi has the sword and the Shield in the way. And why do i bring Susano'o against Kisame? MANGEKYOU is not needed.[/QUOTE]

Kisame can absorb Susanoo as it is chakra.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> It is sealed within him so yes it is.



Hashirama could controll tham so it's his power.If you can controll somthing than that's yours.



> how do you know that?



Amaterasu,Susanoo,Genjutsu spam that would be rape.




> So, it was obvious Minato fougth the kyuubi only.



Acording to the fanbook he battaled Madara as well.




> Because you know you are wrong.





Sasuke was defeated here.



> 12) What does that have to do with Hashirama vs Sarutobi?
> 13) he did use Mokuton!
> 14) He wouldn't need death god!



12.Hishirama will just destroy Sarutobi with his bijuus
13.Not in the darkness Genjutsu
14.How?




> 16)- He had an idea, but Karin confirmed it. Then he acted upon that idea.
> Yes, but that was after Karin told him.
> Which would have given Danzo more Izanagi, and more chances to kill Sasuke.
> 
> ...



He figure it alone,Karin did not do anything here.

Danzou tryed to use more Izanaga but Sasuke traped him in Genjutsu.

17.He will try absord jiraiya's chakra but samehada can't absorb nature energy so that would rape.
18.She did.Sasori is strong thought but I don't see how will he kill anyone above him.


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## Immortal (Jun 5, 2010)

Its insane how many of you think Itachi and Jiraiya are on the same level. 
I rather not argue that Itachi is stronger than Pain when he is, but to say that Itachi is on the same level as Jiraiya makes no sense to me.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 5, 2010)

yeah I agree.I don't know why the people are saying that he is on Jiraiya's/Orochimaru's level.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> hashirama and tobirama above nagato? this is true. how come you dont udnerstand?



I don't want that coming from you.





Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Kisame can absorb Susanoo as it is chakra.



So Itachi would just sit there and let Kisame absorb his Susano'o? As i said before, Susano'o is not needed.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> I don't want that coming from you.


 At this point I don't care anymore:

You listen to me jerk, I have been nice and debating like a normal person yet you still feel the need to be a jerk towards me. So you better shut it and knock it off or theres gonna be trouble.





> So Itachi would just sit there and let Kisame absorb his Susano'o? As i said before, Susano'o is not needed.



Does he have anyother option?


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2010)

> Tier 1:
> 1. Senju Hashirama
> 2. Uchiha Madara (Prime)
> 
> ...


This is a very good list; Only changes i suggest is Hermit Mode Jiriaya and Killer Bee Switching Places and Sasori being moved up as he seems a bit underestimated here. The rest is pretty dam good.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> At this point I don't care anymore:
> 
> You listen to me jerk, I have been nice and debating like a normal person yet you still feel the need to be a jerk towards me. So you better shut it and knock it off or theres gonna be trouble.





Lol chill man.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> Lol chill man.



No you "chill"! You have been on my back about everything. I would be "chill" if you didnt diss me at every chance and always have an attitude towards me! If you just debated maturlly, we wouldn't have this problem and I would be "chill"!!!!!!!


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Ah, NF drama.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Don't test me Thunder. I will bring you into this as well.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> No you "chill"! You have been on my back about everything. I would be "chill" if you didnt diss me at every chance and always have an attitude towards me! If you just debated maturlly, we wouldn't have this problem and I would be "chill"!!!!!!!



I was just disagreeing with you. What is the big deal lol

Anyway too much off topic, i won't continue with this.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Karl said:


> I was just disagreeing with you. What is the big deal lol
> 
> Anyway too much off topic, i won't continue with this.



But you had an attitude when you said it, and then you dissed me at every chance.


Also, anyone ANY filler characters make the list?


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Don't test me Thunder. I will bring you into this as well.



I'm innocent


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 5, 2010)

Stay on topic guys...

Also Hizuren Sarutobi, the one Filler character I can think of who can make it is Guren.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Only Guren?

Here are some that I think have the slightest possibility:

Ishidate(for petrification)
Yakumo( for genjutsu kekkei genkai)
Gennou(for intelligence and traps)
Zero Tailed Masked Leech(beat 3 tailed naruto and fought the four tails)
Shinno(with dark chakra)
Moryo("killed" naruto)
Hiruko(beat a hell of a lot of ninja)
Kazuma(almost beat Asuma, beat Sora, raised the dead)

Sora(4 tails destroys)



Also, I find it funny how, minus Killer Bee, Gaara, and Naruto, no other Jinchuriki make the list. We have seen feats from:

Yugito Nii
and
Utakata


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 5, 2010)

Because they have no feats. No _canon_ feats I should say.


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## Turrin (Jun 5, 2010)

i agree with Alantic Storm on this one its very hard to judge Filler Characters; Especially since most of them have thee most broken abilities, but then are taken out be thee dumbest and most none-sensical means ever.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Feats-

Ishidate- Beat Kakashi, highly intelligent, 

Yakumo- Caught kurenai, naruto, kiba, shino, hinata, and sakura as well as others in a reality genjutsu 


Gennou- Planted traps all over Konoha, tricked up even Shikamaru and tsunade, could have blown up konoha if plot no jutsu wasnt there, and fought even with lee in taijutsu.

Zero tailed- defeated 3 tailed naruto, chakra suction, regeneration, almost beat naruto and sasukehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr8XanfCbuc  and 

shinnou- practically beat naruto    

moryo-"killed" naruto  

Hiruko- beat a hell of a lot of ninja 


Kazuma- almost beat Asuma 


sorry about the AMV thingy, thats all I could find


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## Lightysnake (Jun 5, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Its insane how many of you think Itachi and Jiraiya are on the same level.
> I rather not argue that Itachi is stronger than Pain when he is, but to say that Itachi is on the same level as Jiraiya makes no sense to me.



Because Jiraiya is just as strong and Itachi wasn't sure if he himself could beat him?

and Pain>Itachi. Get over it.


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

Honestly, The NF boreds reak of Itachi-fandom. 

Seriously, a healthy Itachi is not 20xs the strength of a sick Itachi. he doesn't learn new jutsu being healthy. All he gains is more stamina.


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## Judecious (Jun 5, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Tier 0:
> 0.Rikudou sennin
> 
> Tier 1:
> ...



is this list for real??


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## Big Mom (Jun 5, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> is this list for real??



Thats not his list. He copy and pasted that from Sasuke is the man or something like that. And apparently to him... it is...


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## Thunder (Jun 5, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> is this list for real??



Like Hiruzen said, not mine. This is my list:

1)Rikudou Sennin
2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
3)Madara Uchiha (prime)
4)Kabuto Yakushi
5)Pain
6)Minato Namikaze
7)Hiruzen Sarutobi (prime)
8)Jiraiya/Itachi Uchiha
9)Orochimaru (With Tensei)
10)Killer Bee/Danzo Shimura
11)Naruto Uzumaki/Sasuke Uchiha (No EMS, Kyuubi)
12)Orochimaru
13)Kisame Hoshigaki
14)Raikage
15)Sasori
16)Deidara
17)Kakazu
18)Gaara
19)Tsunade
20)Kakashi Hakate


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## Excalibur (Jun 5, 2010)

That's a great list L.O.T. but Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equal at best and kakashi is stronger than tsunade IMO.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> That's a great list L.O.T. but Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equal at best and kakashi is stronger than tsunade IMO.


And your opinion would be wrong. Jiraiya and Itachi are equals, as Itachi himself stated. And Tsunade is stronger than Kakashi.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi never said they were equals.


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## Judecious (Jun 6, 2010)

Lord of Thunder said:


> Like Hiruzen said, not mine. This is my list:
> 
> 1)Rikudou Sennin
> 2)Hashirama Senju (prime)
> ...



best list i have seen but i believe sasuke and naruto should be above Jiraiya/Itachi


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> Itachi never said they were equals.


Yes, they did. He said the best he could do against Jiraiya is a stalemate or they'd both die.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Can I get a link to that manga page?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

But is Itachi being the more honest of the two in that situation? 

Considering that Itachi cut off Orochimaru's hands and told him that none of his techniques had a chance of working against him when he was merely eleven then I'm not arguing that he doesn't realize his own strength, but considering that he had no desire to deliver the Kyūbi to Madara, was he being honest with Kisame at that point, and would Kisame have a reason to lie?

All signs point to no. Kisame and Itachi would stomp Jiraiya in the Battledome. Even an unrestricted weakened Itachi would stomp base Jiraiya. If you don't believe me: I dare you to make a thread. It's a rape fest, and will be locked because it's no more challenging to determine a winner than it is to put Hinata up against Nagato.


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## Excalibur (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi probably was speaking for the sake of PnJ.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> Itachi probably was speaking for the sake of PnJ.


Try to be a little more mature. Itachi said the best he could do against Jiraiya is a stalemate. 

Itachi and Jiraiya are equals. Accept it.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm not accusing them of anything, I'm merely pointing out that these special two translations of yours aren't found anywhere online. Also, where else would Itachi and Kisame add to their numbers if not from their organization? Are you going to write some fanfiction now?

Make the Battledome thread. I'm waiting. The concept of Jiraiya winning is absolutely laughable. Throw in more Akatsuki while you're at it.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

I PMed ShounenSuki for his translation on it, which I just CPed for you. And oh, yeah, Viz.

You're dancing around the subject and trying to force one part of it to fit something for you tear down. That's a straw man. 

Again, Itachi merely says reinforcements may not change it, meaning it might depend who they bring.  If he brings a giant army, Konoha might, I dunno, resist that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

He says that increasing their Akatsuki numbers wouldn't increase their chances of carrying out the Akatsuki mission as a response to Kisame saying Itachi would likely succeed. I'm done. If you do decide to make a _Jiraiya v Itachi & Kisame_ thread then pm me so I can giggle.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

show me where it says increasing their Akatsuki numbers. There are others working for Akatsuki than the core nine and you know it.
Especially as you well know Itachi knows why other Akatsuki members wouldn't be attacking Konoha.

Do I trust Itachi or you? Are you disbelieving Itachi? I thought you were his fan.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Why wouldn't other Akatsuki members attack Konoha?

And are you going to make that thread? Because I'm seeing a a large portion of the forum believing Kisame and Itachi could take out all three Sannin, and not stalemate Base Jiraiya.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

You mean you see you, Jinnobi and Nikushimi, who are unreliable.

and gee, I dunno, who's the one always arguing Itachi kept the other Akatsuki away from Konoha?
and Itachi's wrong about his own powers. That's a new one


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi was lying.They could destroy jiraiya.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Itachi was lying.They could destroy jiraiya.


Prove it. Their stats, feats, and everything show that Itachi and Jiraiya are equals, and Itachi didn't even know about Jiraiya's Sage Mode. 

Sasuke Uchiha Boy, why is it lying when Itachi isn't an invincible god?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

Because Itachi would never be  afraid of Sannin.And without sage Mode Jiraiya whould be raped in 10 sec.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Circular reasoning, hello. Itachi's word>Yours.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Because Itachi would never be  afraid of Sannin.And without sage Mode Jiraiya whould be raped in 10 sec.


Itachi's words>yours. 

Jiraiya has many counters for all of Itachi's abilities. Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, Itachi isn't invincible and that there may be people equal to him?


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

Nope:My words>Itachi's lies

And How Base Jiraiya will survive:Genjutsu,Amaterasu and Susanoo?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Nope:My words>Itachi's lies


Anything that Itachi says is a lie to you since it makes him not an invincible god.


> And How Base Jiraiya will survive:Genjutsu,Amaterasu and Susanoo?


Genjutsu-shatters it with ease. Kurenai and Orochimaru broke it with ease, and Naruto identified and broke the first layer of one of his genjutsus. 
Amaterasu-seal it, block it with a clone. Not to mention Itachi _doesn't use it right off the bat._
Susano'o-Stay out of its range, and let Itachi exhaust himself, then sink him and Susano'o in Yomi Numa.

You act like Itachi breaks out his MS abilities right off. 

Stop trolling, please.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

I wouldn't say Kurenai or Orochimaru broke it 'with ease,' but Jiraiya likely can.

ICly, Itachi never uses MS right off anyways. And Jiraiya can bunshin feint.

Sorry, mate, but you're being rather silly in saying you can overwrite the manga


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Anything that Itachi says is a lie to you since it makes him not an invincible god.



Well anything what he said was lie-Modara told the truth to Sasuke.



> Genjutsu-shatters it with ease. Kurenai and Orochimaru broke it with ease, and Naruto identified and broke the first layer of one of his genjutsus.



Is Jiraiya Uchiha to break it?Nope I don't think so.



> Amaterasu-seal it, block it with a clone. Not to mention Itachi _doesn't use it right off the bat._



Without knowledge?
user looks at something, and it burns.Amaterasu is too fast,Jiraiya will die before he make hand seal



> Susano'o-Stay out of its range, and let Itachi exhaust himself.



Yeah except you know that Susanoo is fast?Base Jiraiya's speed in nothing special.



Lightysnake said:


> I wouldn't say Kurenai or Orochimaru broke it 'with ease,' but Jiraiya likely can.
> 
> ICly, Itachi never uses MS right off anyways. And Jiraiya can bunshin feint



How Jiraiya will break the Genjutsu.

And Itachi can see his seals so Jiraiya won't able to make Kage Bunshin


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2010)

When it comes to who is stronger Itachi or Jiraiya its pretty obvious the two are equals; The Translations on that page where Kisame and Itachi are talking all differ, but all of them have Itachi suggesting equality. Pretty much Itachi believes that if he fought Jiraiya they would ether kill each other or things would result in a Draw.

And i don't think Itachi considered Kisame Relevant to the Fight at that Point; I think he pretty much though Kisame wouldn't accomplish anything and Kisame suggest essentially the same thing.

The Funny thing about this is when Jiraiya met Itachi and Kisame in the hallway this is exactly what happened; The interaction between Jiraiya and Itachi effectively result in a Draw and Kisame wasn't even relevant to the Situation. Jiriaya tried to defeat Itachi with Frog Stomach one of his better Techniques and Itachi counter with Amaterasu one of his better Techniques and he made the choice to flee. This things ended in a draw with Kisame having Zero effect on the outcome.

Kisame's Statement after that really does nothing to disprove previous Statements; He Asked Itachi why it was necessary to flee, which is a good question to ask considering that Itachi had just recently told Kisame he could fight Jiraiya to a draw and circumstances seemed to favor Itachi as Jiraiya had to keep watch over two Genin. 

Itachi why was it necessary to flee when you could have Grabbed naruto and then fled or used the two Genin against Jiriaya would probably be the most accurate interpretation. Basically Kisame is wondering given the circumstance where you had you equal at a Disadvantage why flee. Valid Question but it does nothing to disprove the notion of equality.

And Itachi dismisses it by citing a disadvantage he also had in the form over already using too many MS Techniques and needing to recover.

You can ask how is Kisame so Irrelevant despite his impressive Performance in Part 2, but i think thats just based on the fallacy of assuming Kisame did not grow in strength over the time-skip or that he wasn't reteconed by Kishimoto.

After all Itachi makes it sound like Part 1 Kisame would have an incredibly tough time dealing with Part 1 Kakashi:


He doesn't make it sound like he will loose, but he does make it sound like Kakashi would be a very tough enemy for him. Saying things like if Kisame fights Kakashi he will take too long to win and that if Kisame fights him he will end up getting injured, which will cause problems for their mission.

The very fact that Kakashi can injure Kisame to the point where it would cause problems for their mission is in stark contrast with what we saw Kisame capable of taking in Part 1 and Regenerating from. I mean what does Kakashi even have in Part 1 that could possibly injure the Kisame we have seen in Part 2; Considering Kisame Durability, Insane Regen, and Samehada absorbing Chakra from jutsu before they can connect?

Their is a high probability because of Statements like these from Itachi, Kisame's own Statements were he makes himself out to be vastly inferior to the Legendary Sannin(Which includes Tsunade), and the fact that Kisame being powerless in the face of Frog Stomatch; That he was ether Retconned by Kishi or he simply became significantly stronger over the time-skip(Which isn't something we don't have a precedence for in the form of Kakashi).

Aside from that you can say Itachi was lying, but that basically just comes down to your interpretation of the story and how deep the author really wants you to read into the characters motivations and how much of the story-line you think Kishimoto planned ahead as a deliberate puzzle for readers to decode.

And the fact that Naruto and Sasuke were Stated to be equals after both Mastering the Tools used by Jiraiya and Itachi respectively(MS and SM) and the author goes so far to have Naruto even say the same exact outcome(A Draw or Mutual Death) that Itachi predicted in a fight between him and Jiraiya very much supports the fact that Itachi was giving his honest opinion.

Honestly Logically speaking; If the Author is telling use that a True Blood Genius Uchiha and Master MS user can be forced into a Draw or Mutual death scenario with by a Stamina Beast Ninja who makes use of Toad Summoning, Rasengan Variants, and Sage Mode who is in-fact trained by Jiraiya; It makes almost Zero Sense for people to say Jiraiya Stands no chance against another True Blood Genius Uchiha and Master MS User.

And the Fact that Both Itachi's Statement and Naruto's Statement indicates that these skills that both him and Jiraiya posses are capable of Forcing a Draw with such an Uchiha is pretty dam solid proof that a fight between Jiraiya and Itachi would be very close and the Hype, Feats, and their Relevance to Story-line all suggest they are in the same general level.

Pretty Much Kishimoto has bashed readers over the head with the fact that Jiraiya and Itachi are equals are at least around each others levels and would fight a close battle. Thats all their is too it when it comes to Jiraiya vs Itachi


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Thank you, Turrin. That is very insightful.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

Even if you believe in  that Sasuke is bit stronger than Naruto-Stated by Naruto himself.Naruto surprised Jiraiya and Sasuke is inferior to Itachi.So it would be:I tachi>Sasuke>=Naruto>Jiraiya


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Well anything what he said was lie-Modara told the truth to Sasuke.



Yeah, to SASUKE. Not to Kisame or in his own thoughts



> Is Jiraiya Uchiha to break it?Nope I don't think so.


Don't need to be an Uchiha




> Without knowledge?
> user looks at something, and it burns.Amaterasu is too fast,Jiraiya will die before he make hand seal


There's a gap in focus and usage, sorry




> Yeah except you know that Susanoo is fast?Base Jiraiya's speed in nothing special.


He has near top marks in speed. 
And the Totsuka against him ready for it?




> How Jiraiya will break the Genjutsu.


Using his chakra like he taught Naruto



> And Itachi can see his seals so Jiraiya won't able to make Kage Bunshin


Itachi'll just know it's a bunshin's all


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Well anything what he said was lie-Modara told the truth to Sasuke.


There was no reason to lie. Itachi couldn't afford to hold back against any Konoha ninja lest he tip Akatsuki AND Konoha off that he was a double agent. 




> Is Jiraiya Uchiha to break it?Nope I don't think so.


Itachi's standard genjutsus are broken. We aren't talking about Tsukuyomi here.




> Without knowledge?
> user looks at something, and it burns.Amaterasu is too fast,Jiraiya will die before he make hand seal


Burns too fast? Are you high? Amaterasu fucking burns slow most of the time. And Itachi needs to make a seal and charge up to use it.




> Yeah except you know that Susanoo is fast?Base Jiraiya's speed in nothing special.


Susano'o is _not fast_. It moves so fucking slowly, especially Itachi's bulky version. And Base Jiraiya's speed is Sasuke's, Orochimaru's and Kakashi's equal. And what about _sinking_ it in the yomi numa tech?




> How Jiraiya will break the Genjutsu.


Cut the flow and then use a burst of chakra. Jiraiya taught Naruto to identify and break genjutsu, and he has more experience and better chakra control than Naruto did at the time. 


> And Itachi can see his seals so Jiraiya won't able to make Kage Bunshin


How does Itachi seeing the seals prevent Jiraiya from using Kage Bushin?

Itachi isn't unbeatable, he's Jiraiya's equal. Its manga fact. Stop. Trolling.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

> Yeah, to SASUKE. Not to Kisame or in his own thoughts



He was in the village only to talk with Danzou not to fight Jiraiya.




> Don't need to be an Uchiha



yeah who broke Itachi's genjutsu?Just Uchiha



> There's a gap in focus and usage, sorry



Jiraiya don't have answer for Amaterasu.



> He has near top marks in speed.
> And the Totsuka against him ready for it?



I don't see wht you are trying to prove here.




> Using his chakra like he taught Naruto



Where was showen that Jiraiya can break any Genjutsu?jJiraiya don't have genjutsu counters it's just fanfics.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> He was in the village only to talk with Danzou not to fight Jiraiya.


No, he was in the village to SEND A MESSAGE to Danzo-that he was still alive. What better message than fighting and nearly killing three of it's best Jonin and standing down one of the Sannin.





> yeah who broke Itachi's genjutsu?Just Uchiha


Wrong. Orochimaru, Kurenai, Naruto, Sakura, and Chiyo all broke Itachi's genjutsu.




> Jiraiya don't have answer for Amaterasu.


Kage Bushin to tank it, seal it. And again, _stop ignoring the charge time._




> I don't see wht you are trying to prove here.


That Susano'o isn't invincible?





> Where was showen that Jiraiya can break any Genjutsu?jJiraiya don't have genjutsu counters it's just fanfics.


Dear god, what is so hard for you to believe this. Jiraiya _taught Naruto how to identify and break Genjutsu_. Why shouldn't he have the method.


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## Demon of the Mist (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> Because Itachi would never be  afraid of Sannin.And without sage Mode Jiraiya whould be raped in 10 sec.



With sage mode he would still get raped.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> He was in the village only to talk with Danzou not to fight Jiraiya.


Except he and Danzo never spoke.
And he was trying to abdust Naruto still




> yeah who broke Itachi's genjutsu?Just Uchiha


And Kakashi.
Oh, Orochimaru.
And Kurenai!




> Jiraiya don't have answer for Amaterasu.


Itachi closes his eye to sue it...Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. Or Food cart crusher



> I don't see wht you are trying to prove here.


It's obvious





> Where was showen that Jiraiya can break any Genjutsu?jJiraiya don't have genjutsu counters it's just fanfics.







Hmmm


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 6, 2010)

paintballlover12 said:


> With sage mode he would still get raped.


Sage Mode gives too many advantages for Jiraiya over Itachi. Hell with a single punch he'd break Itachi's neck or leg or arm.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi's lucky Jiraiya has no frog katas


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## Judecious (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi's lucky Jiraiya has no frog katas



who said he does, just because he does use it




On it, Fukasaku explains that once you become one with natural energy (which is the only way to use Sage Mode), you are able to control where natural energy enters and exits your body.
Now what are Frog Katas? Frog Katas are where you use natural energy to increase the range of your strikes, which is in effect controlling where natural energy exits your body.


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

> There was no reason to lie. Itachi couldn't afford to hold back against any Konoha ninja lest he tip Akatsuki AND Konoha off that he was a double agent.



There was reason to lie.He did not want to kill Konoha shinobi.Kisame said to him:"Was that necessary for you" and he lied to him.

Kisame knew that Itachi could own him.



> Itachi's standard genjutsus are broken. We aren't talking about Tsukuyomi here.



Itachi will use Tsukuyomi.



> Burns too fast? Are you high? Amaterasu fucking burns slow most of the time. And Itachi needs to make a seal and charge up to use it.



So you are saying that Jiraiya in base can avoid the amaterasu?




> Susano'o is _not fast_. It moves so fucking slowly, especially Itachi's bulky version. And Base Jiraiya's speed is Sasuke's, Orochimaru's and Kakashi's equal. And what about _sinking_ it in the yomi numa tech?



lol Susanoo is slow.Orochimaru was easily sealed.And if his speed is on Orochimaru's level than you are just proving my point that Itachi will seal him.

Yomi numa is overrated.
susanoo protects the user 100%.tat is 100%proved.it was said tat yata's mirror will defend any jutsu tat attack the user.




> Cut the flow and then use a burst of chakra. Jiraiya taught Naruto to identify and break genjutsu, and he has more experience and better chakra control than Naruto did at the time.



Jiraiya was never showen to braak a Genjutsu so he can't breake it.This is just another fanfic. 




> How does Itachi seeing the seals prevent Jiraiya from using Kage Bushin?



He can predict his movements so that would be rape.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

sasuke uciha boy said:


> There was reason to lie.He did not want to kill Konoha shinobi.Kisame said to him:"Was that necessary for you" and he lied to him.


Itachi then tried to kill Konoha shinobi and ordered Kisame to do it.
Kisame asked later after they were fleeing why they had to retreat. Itachi then THOUGHT he had to rest



> Kisame knew that Itachi could own him.


Itachi said otherwise



> Itachi will use Tsukuyomi.


Jiriaya won't make eye contact




> So you are saying that Jiraiya in base can avoid the amaterasu?


I'm saying he'll stop ITachi from getting it off like Sasuke did





> lol Susanoo is slow.Orochimaru was easily sealed.And if his speed is on Orochimaru's level than you are just proving my point that Itachi will seal him.


Orochimaru wasn;t paying attention or trying to dodge



> Yomi numa is overrated.
> susanoo protects the user 100%.tat is 100%proved.it was said tat yata's mirror will defend any jutsu tat attack the user.


Which is why some of Kirin got through.
Yomi Numa sinks Itachi, Susanoo or no





> Jiraiya was never showen to braak a Genjutsu so he can't breake it.This is just another fanfic.


He's shown teaching his student a method for it





> He can predict his movements so that would be rape.



Movement prediction is not insta win, kiddo


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## sasuke uciha boy (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Except he and Danzo never spoke.
> And he was trying to abdust Naruto still










> And Kakashi.
> Oh, Orochimaru.
> And Kurenai!



that was not   tsukuyomi



> Itachi closes his eye to sue it...Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa. Or Food cart crusher



Yata mirror says hi.




> Hmmm



This is just explonation you knowWhen Kakashi said that only Uchiha can break tsukuyomi?



> Itachi then tried to kill Konoha shinobi and ordered Kisame to do it.Kisame asked later after they were fleeing why they had to retreat. Itachi then THOUGHT he had to rest



He said to kill tham Because he knew that Guy is coming.



> Itachi said otherwise



He is a good lier.



> Jiriaya won't make eye contact



Without knowledge?Good one.



> I'm saying he'll stop ITachi from getting it off like Sasuke did



Jiraiya is not Sasuke



> Orochimaru wasn;t paying attention or trying to dodge



Oh Susanoo was too fast for Orochimaru.It will be the same with Jiraiya.



> Which is why some of Kirin got through.
> Yomi Numa sinks Itachi, Susanoo or no



It was incomplete Susanoo




> He's shown teaching his student a method for it



It was good lection.We will see is that true or not.




> Movement prediction is not insta win



So Itachi can read his movements and Jiraiya will still defeat him.Yeah right



paintballlover12 said:


> With sage mode he would still get raped.



obviously


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## Smiley (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi Way Overated.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 6, 2010)

In my opinion, Itachi is underrated lol.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Try to be a little more mature. Itachi said the best he could do against Jiraiya is a stalemate.
> 
> Itachi and Jiraiya are equals. Accept it.



I'm sorry but this makes absolutly no sense whatsoever.

Itachi has always been looking for the best outcomes for the village. The most damage he ever did to Konoha was putting Kakashi in a hospital bed, and everyone does that. Itachi DID NOT WANT to kill Naruto and Jiraiya. He did not want to fight Jiraiya, because fighting somebody as skilled as Jiraiya would require not holding back. But again, Itachi did not want Jiraiya or even Naruto dead.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

It is complete bull that you guys are basing Itachi off of lies he told Kisame and a fight with kiddie gloves he had with Sasuke.

Get it through your heads, Itachi already appeared to us as a superduper badass, and that was him holding back. He never wanted to kill Sasuke, he never wanted to kill Jiraiya, hell, he didn't even want to kill Kakashi/Gai and co. 
The only time we've seen Itachi CLOSE to serious is when he fought with Orochimaru, twice, if you even call those fights. He destroyed Orochimaru with one attack BOTH times. Orochimaru is known as an equal to Jiraiya, just like Sasuke is to Naruto. Itachi is the only character in the manga who has straight up DESTROYED a kage-level shinobi in one page. Itachi is grossly underestimated, what we've seen is already spectacular, but the best part is that 90% of what we've seen-- is him holding back.


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## Smiley (Jun 6, 2010)

Karl said:


> In my opinion, Itachi is underrated lol.



People claiming that Itachi could beat pain, underated to you?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm positive that Itachi has more hype and feats coming his way given his central role in the story in terms of helping Naruto, working against Madara, and helping Sasuke in conjunction with the author giving him massive amounts of handicaps to hold him back throughout the manga. 

For now, he's just a character who even the biggest Jiraiya fans feel is on Hermit Mode Jiraiya's level when he has a foot in the grave, is blinded - basically at the level that Sasuke was when *Sakura* could have killed him - and also not trying to harm his opponent. He was quite clearly a monster when handicapped, but obviously something more when the handicaps are lifted.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 6, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> People claiming that Itachi could beat pain, underated to you?



Nah, those are just fanboys.


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## Aoshi (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> I'm positive that Itachi has more hype and feats coming his way given his central role in the story in terms of helping Naruto, working against Madara, and helping Sasuke.
> 
> For now, he's just a character who even the biggest Jiraiya fans feel is on Hermit Mode Jiraiya's level when he has a foot in the grave, is blinded - basically at the level that Sasuke was when *Sakura* could have killed him - and also not trying to harm his opponent. He was quite clearly a monster when handicapped, but obviously something more when the handicaps are lifted.



_What the hell? What Jiraiya fans have believed that?

Most Itachi fans believe that Itachi can tie HM Jiraiya... It's not the other way around.

Most Jiraiya fans believe that Base Jiraiya can defeat Sick Itachi, and HM Jiraiya would destroy Healthy Itachi. _


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

No one believes Base Jiraiya can defeat an unrestricted sick Itachi. In the largest poll, most of the forum voted that sick Itachi would defeat Hermit Mode Jiraiya and Jiraiya already has the advantage of knowledge on Itachi.

If Jiraiya fought Itachi without knowledge like he fought Nagato then Jiraiya would be obliterated. With hefty knowledge he can survive for a bit, but with knowledge he could have defeated Nagato so go figure.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 6, 2010)

Well, Jiraiya vs Itachi is one of the most controversial things in Naruto Battledome and the Konoha Library for a reason. 

As for me, I doubt base Jiraiya(assuming that when you say base he is restricted from using Sage Mode) could defeat unrestricted Itachi.


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## Aoshi (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> It is complete bull that you guys are basing Itachi off of lies he told Kisame and a fight with kiddie gloves he had with Sasuke.
> 
> Get it through your heads, Itachi already appeared to us as a superduper badass, and that was him holding back. He never wanted to kill Sasuke, he never wanted to kill Jiraiya, hell, he didn't even want to kill Kakashi/Gai and co.
> The only time we've seen Itachi CLOSE to serious is when he fought with Orochimaru, twice, if you even call those fights. He destroyed Orochimaru with one attack BOTH times. Orochimaru is known as an equal to Jiraiya, just like Sasuke is to Naruto. Itachi is the only character in the manga who has straight up DESTROYED a kage-level shinobi in one page. Itachi is grossly underestimated, what we've seen is already spectacular, but the best part is that 90% of what we've seen-- is him holding back.



_Are you kidding me kid? Give me proof that Itachi didn't wouldn't have killed those people. He may have not wanted to, but I'm sure he was willing to kill them if necessary. Kisame was milli-seconds away from chopping off Naruto's legs. Do you honestly believe that Itachi would have known that at that EXACT moment, Jiraiya would have dispelled the Genjutsu on the lady, and aided Naruto? This is a joke, right? If you ask me, that seems a little risky. Also, why would Itachi lie to Kisame? There was no reason for it... Either way, they would have tried to trick Jiraiya most likely. Also, they ended up confronting Jiraiya anyway, so it's not like Itachi admitting inferiority to Jiraiya would have helped his cause.  _


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## Aoshi (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> No one believes Base Jiraiya can defeat an unrestricted sick Itachi. In the largest poll, most of the forum voted that sick Itachi would defeat Hermit Mode Jiraiya and Jiraiya already has the advantage of knowledge on Itachi.
> 
> If Jiraiya fought Itachi without knowledge like he fought Nagato then Jiraiya would be obliterated. With hefty knowledge he can survive for a bit, but with knowledge he could have defeated Nagato so go figure.



_If you are talking about Chainer's Itachi vs Jiraiya thread, then it is about even. Itachi has 6 more votes that Jiraiya does. Also, that is Healthy Itachi, with Full Knowledge on both sides. I don't know what you mean by most, because that is very close, considering over 350 people voted in that poll. _


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

.

It's just manga characters. Sick, dying, blind Itachi against Jiraiya with all of their canonical knowledge, which means Jiraiya has knowledge of two of Itachi's deadliest techniques and his skill with Genjutsu to avoid being raped like Deidara or Orochimaru while Itachi knows virtually nothing.

The distance is also 100 meters and I wonder who that helps most? Jiraiya who needs time to enter Hermit Mode or the close range fighter, Itachi? That fight was *stacked* for Jiraiya, and the majority still feel Itachi would win, and for good reason, because he is the superior shinobi even when handicapped.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _Are you kidding me kid? Give me proof that Itachi didn't wouldn't have killed those people. He may have not wanted to, but I'm sure he was willing to kill them if necessary. Kisame was milli-seconds away from chopping off Naruto's legs. Do you honestly believe that Itachi would have known that at that EXACT moment, Jiraiya would have dispelled the Genjutsu on the lady, and aided Naruto? This is a joke, right? If you ask me, that seems a little risky. Also, why would Itachi lie to Kisame? There was no reason for it... Either way, they would have tried to trick Jiraiya most likely. Also, they ended up confronting Jiraiya anyway, so it's not like Itachi admitting inferiority to Jiraiya would have helped his cause.  _



That's exactly the point... he would have killed them if he had to, but he clearly did not have to, hence why he fled. He lied to Kisame because Kisame is a true member of Akatsuki, while Itachi is not. Their goals are different while Kisame beleives they are the same. 
And as for interfering with Kisame striking Naruto.. what the hell was he supposed to do? Blow his cover with not only Akatsuki, but his brother Sasuke as well? While he didn't want to kill any of the Konoha ninja, keeping the hatred in his brother was his highest priority.


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

I think Hermit Jiraiya is on the same level as Itachi, but not Base Jiraiya. Hermit Jiraiya, knowledge or not, could possibly defeat Itachi. With no knowledge, it becomes a lot harder, but with Shima and Fukasaku on his shoulders, even in genjutsu I find it hard to believe Itachi could touch him without MS. Without knowledge on that Jiraiya is likely screwed. With knowledge however he could counter MS, and I find it hard to believe that Jiraiya has no knowledge on Itachi. So I see it alot more even and close if their is no knowledge, with knowledge Jiraiya has the edge IMO.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

With no knowledge Jiraiya is going to have his hands cut off at the beginning of the battle before he can do anything and be told that all of his techniques are useless before Itachi's eyes. 

With full knowledge Itachi would never let Jiraiya enter Hermit Mode, and he would be crushed. I also disagree that Jiraiya can counter the Mangekyō Sharingan with Hermit Mode or not.  

He lacks the reflexes and Itachi's is a catch 22 that even Ē wouldn't counter as he needed to look at Sasuke's eyes to dodge Amaterasu. If Ē tried that with Itachi he would crumble to the ground instantly from Tsukuyomi.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Except Jiraiya knows how to break genjutsu on his own .


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Yes, Lightysnake, and Orochimaru didn't. That's a great argument.


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

I'm talking about with Sennin Mode already active Selim. I seriously doubt Shima and Fukasaku would let Itachi cut off his hands, and with full knowledge, assuming this is base Jiraiya, he would just summon a few frogs, get on Bunta and get into HM.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Orochimaru's genjutsu intelligence > Jiraiyas


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I'm talking about with Sennin Mode already active Selim. I seriously doubt Shima and Fukasaku would let Itachi cut off his hands, and with full knowledge, assuming this is base Jiraiya, he would just summon a few frogs, get on Bunta and get into HM.



If it was already active then Itachi would probably follow up with Amaterasu or some other Ninjutsu. Same outcome. His hands certainly move fast enough to land an attack before Shima and Fukasaku realize he's in Genjutsu after a few seconds. 

Sharingan Genjutsu also effects everyone looking at his eyes. Thus without knowledge the chances are pretty good that all three would be looking at his Sharingan and all succumb to Genjutsu.

Furthermore, how long do you think it takes Jiraiya to enter Hermit Mode? If Itachi has knowledge then he's going to use Susano'o, Genjutsu, and everything he can to hit Jiraiya hard and fast before he transforms. As you've already said, Base Jiraiya doesn't win that way.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Except they're linked to Jiraiya and can instantly break him out. Itachi himself has never shown a Genjutsu to nail more than one person and Jiraiya can merely chill out in a barrier and Itachi can never find him.

And Jiraiya can break Itachi's genjutsu given his own method, intellect and power


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Jiraya can not break Itachi's genjutsu under his own will.

If they are fused, better yet for Itachi, they should all fall under the genjutsu at the same time. And even if thats not the case, all Itachi needs is one second, I doubt Ma and Pa could break it that quickly.

And the BEST part is, you're debating this so strongly, losing the argument, and Itachi doesn't even need genjutsu to win.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

The Sharingan has shown the capability to put more than one person in a Genjutsu at a time. Kakashi told two Jōnin to close their eyes when fighting him. It's pretty clear how it works. *Naruto used Jiraiya's method and it failed. *

Shima and Fukasaku couldn't "instantly" realize that Jiraiya's chakra was going haywire to the point where he screamed. So that statement of yours is incorrect. He would be in Genjutsu for at least a few seconds.

Finally, the barrier is just him being inside a small toad. A kunai in the toad means death. Not that hiding in a barrier is relevant.


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## Big Mom (Jun 6, 2010)

Honestly, I could see people putting Minato above Hiruzen, but not Hashirama. Hiruzen was trained by Tobirama and Hashirama themselves *personally. Thye trained Hiruzen and stated him to be a genius. He obviously surpassed them, otherwise he would not have been chosen.


Minato- Had the potential to be the strongest except his untimley death hindered that. HE was unable to learn more jutsu and become stronger.*


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## Turrin (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't see how anyone thinks Itachi can beat Jiraiya w/o MS thats just utterly Ridiculous. 

The Way it goes essentially is HM Jiraiya = MS Itachi; Base Jiraiya = Three Tome Itachi.

Jiriaya in HM would WTFPWN an Itachi who is restricted to 3 Tome. 

As for Blindness being a handicap; Yes it is, but guess what if we remove Blindness from Itachi then he would have no experience with his MS Techniques and he wouldn't be able to use any of them. As Itachi's Blindness developed just like Sasuke as he gained experience and developed his MS Techniques.

So a perfect Eyesight Itachi would get WTFPWN by Jiraiya as he would have no experience with MS and have no MS Techniques.

When it comes to Sick and Healthy; This is something that should be discussed when we actually see Healthy Itachi fight and how much of a power increase being healthy really gives him. Its possible it gives him a huge increase to the point where yeah Healthy Itachi is obviously Stronger then Jiraiya or its possible that the only increase is that Itachi does not fall over dead form a heart attack after straining himself.

So lets wait an see; Both options that Jiraiya = Sick Itachi, but Healthy Itachi > Jiraiya and/or Healthy Itachi will still = Jiraiya are more then possible.

In-fact to the Credit of Itachi fans; With Kishimoto's Wank on the Sharigan i can actually see him making Healthy Itachi Slightly Stronger then Jiraiya and Equal to Minato.

So it would be Sick Itachi = Jiraiya and Healthy Itachi = Minato

But from what Itachi has shown so far and been depicted as in the manga thus far Itachi = to Jiriaya. We can discuss Healthy Itachi when he actually appears in the manga


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> The Sharingan has shown the capability to put more than one person in a Genjutsu at a time. Kakashi told two Jōnin to close their eyes when fighting him. It's pretty clear how it works. *Naruto used Jiraiya's method and it failed. *


Show me where Itachi has. Thank you.

And notice the flaw in your argument? "Naruto tried, but it failed!"
Guess what Naruto isn't Jiraiya. He's weaker in Genjutsu. And intellect.
shikamaru had a much lower genjutsu stat than Kabuto's, as I recall. Itachi even noted it didn't work completely as Naruto was still weak. Jiraiya is much stronger



> Shima and Fukasaku couldn't "instantly" realize that Jiraiya's chakra was going haywire to the point where he screamed. So that statement of yours is incorrect. He would be in Genjutsu for at least a few seconds.


Except his own intellect would take care of it for him



> Finally, the barrier is just him being inside a small toad. A kunai in the toad means death. Not that hiding in a barrier is relevant.


You have to find the toad. Five people with a rinnegan couldn't, now could they?


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## Saturday (Jun 6, 2010)

Here's my list
1.Rikoudo Sage
2.Pain
3.Hashirama
4.Minato
5.Madara
6.Kabuto
7.Naruto/Sasuke
8.Hiruzen(prime)
9.Jiraiya/Itachi
10.Danzo
11.Kisame
12.Killer Bee
13.Sasori
14.Deidara
15.Raikage
16.Kakuzu
17.Tobimaru
18.Gaara
19.Tsunade
20.Mei


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake, if you read the manga you would see that Jiraiya's instructions were simple: "*Use more power*" and that's what Naruto did as he gushed chakra out of him. It didn't work. Jiraiya using more power isn't magically going to work. That's just your fanboy mind. It is a method that didn't work on Itachi's Genjutsu because he is a Genjutsu master and, just as Jiraiya said, you need someone to break you out in that case.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Jiraiya's method isn't what failed Naruto against Itachi's clone. Naruto prevented Itachi from putting him to sleep, and lost his focus from the taunting genjutsu Itachi switched over to.


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## Smiley (Jun 6, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Honestly, I could see people putting Minato above Hiruzen, but not Hashirama. Hiruzen was trained by Tobirama and Hashirama themselves *personally. Thye trained Hiruzen and stated him to be a genius. He obviously surpassed them, otherwise he would not have been chosen.
> 
> 
> Minato- Had the potential to be the strongest except his untimley death hindered that. HE was unable to learn more jutsu and become stronger.*


*

This is the first post by you that I actually agree with you on. However, due to feats, Prime Hiruzen will never compare to Hashirama, since we know he's Mokuton had Bijuu's under his control as pets, and that he beat Prime Madara with EMS and left him severely injured thorought his whole life.

An old Hiruzen lost to a part 1 Orochimaru. Even though he was old, his prime wouldn't grant him dozens of power to be over Hashirama, probably about the same par with Minato or less.*


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> Lightysnake, if you read the manga you would see that Jiraiya's instructions were simple: "*Use more power*" and that's what Naruto did as he gushed chakra out of him. It didn't work. Jiraiya using more power isn't magically going to work. That's just your fanboy mind. It is a method that didn't work on Itachi's Genjutsu because he is a Genjutsu master and, just as Jiraiya said, you need someone to break you out in that case.



Why? Naruto at that point was 'still weak.' Jiraiya is much stronger than him, smarter and more skilled in nearly every respect. And Naruto wasn't even tapping into the Kyuubi.

So, more experienced, smarter and stronger shinobi using the method better? Hmm...

What caught Naruto was when Itachi switched to using his friends. That isn't going to work on Jiraiya. Remember when Kakashi-a four- broke Itachi's paper body Genjutsu?


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Your best argument is that Jiraiya could win the fight by hiding >.>

and I think its funny that you say we can't talk about a healthy Itachi since he wasn't in the manga, but then compare him to Minato, a ninja who is all hype.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Why? Naruto at that point was 'still weak.'



Itachi thought Orochimaru was weak. Not a great argument.



Lightysnake said:


> So, more experienced, smarter and stronger shinobi using the method better? Hmm...



Nice fanfiction, but "more power" isn't about skill.



Lightysnake said:


> Remember when Kakashi-a four- broke Itachi's paper body Genjutsu?



He didn't. That was a clone. (He also has the Sharingan.)


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## Lord Potato (Jun 6, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Honestly, I could see people putting Minato above Hiruzen, but not Hashirama. Hiruzen was trained by Tobirama and Hashirama themselves *personally. Thye trained Hiruzen and stated him to be a genius. He obviously surpassed them, otherwise he would not have been chosen.
> 
> 
> Minato- Had the potential to be the strongest except his untimley death hindered that. HE was unable to learn more jutsu and become stronger.*


*


Hiruzen did get trained by Tobirama (so what? ) but  saying that he was trained by Hashirama, that's just speculation.*


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Umm, no. He'd need cover to go to Hermit mode. Then comes pure offense. Even in base, Jiraiya has a ton of lethal moves


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> If it was already active then Itachi would probably follow up with Amaterasu or some other Ninjutsu.


Why would he do that with no knowledge? >_>



> His hands certainly move fast enough to land an attack before Shima and Fukasaku realize he's in Genjutsu after a few seconds.


Not realize he is in genjutsu, but retaliate to Itachi's attack. 



> Sharingan Genjutsu also effects everyone looking at his eyes. Thus without knowledge the chances are pretty good that all three would be looking at his Sharingan and all succumb to Genjutsu.


Why would they all happen to look at his eyes, at the same instant he uses genjutsu? I mean no knowledge is something clearly in favor of Itachi, since anyone would know to not look in his eyes.

I thought it was the opposite. Whoever _Itachi_ was looking at was put into genjutsu, and futhermore, where is his feats of putting more then one person in genjutsu, and I am looking for _Itachi's_ feats.



> Furthermore, how long do you think it takes Jiraiya to enter Hermit Mode?


Honestly? Not very long. People overrate how long it takes for him to get into HM.



> If Itachi has knowledge then he's going to use Susano'o, Genjutsu, and everything he can to hit Jiraiya hard and fast before he transforms


Well, honestly, with lots of frogs to cover him, it shouldn't be a problem since after Gamabunta jumps away Itachi isn't touching him.

.





> As you've already said, Base Jiraiya doesn't win that way.


I'm not saying Base Jiraiya would win, but if he can get into Hermit Mode he is certainly in the advantage.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> Itachi thought Orochimaru was weak. It's not a stretch to put Jiraiya in there.


Itachi was afraid to fight him for fear of him and Kisame dying.
I don't think Itachi was chocking him up as weak. 




> Nice fanfiction, but stick to the manga.



Sorry how basic fights don't seem to work on you here. 
Is Jiraiya stronger than Naruto at that point? Yes
Is he smarter? Yes
Is he more skilled? Yes.

So he can't break it, why, when Naruto was resisting Itachi's genjutsu at first and earning a compliment from him?



> He didn't. That was a clone. (He also has the Sharingan.)


A Kage Bunshin is an exact clone. A perfect replica. If it broke it, Kakashi can


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi was afraid to fight him for fear of him and Kisame dying.



That fear really showed itself when he took a moment to beat the hell out of his little brother and drop his strongest technique on him as a finisher in front of Jiraiya *after* he had already split his chakra in half with a clone earlier that day and used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi. He was shaking in his boots when he asked Jiraiya what he planned to do to stop them from taking Naruto, right?.



Lightysnake said:


> So he can't break it, why, when Naruto was resisting Itachi's genjutsu at first and earning a compliment from him?



Itachi still dominated his mind depsite Naruto "using more power." 



Lightysnake said:


> A Kage Bunshin is an exact clone. A perfect replica. If it broke it, Kakashi can



Where do you get the idea that the clone broke the Genjutsu?


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi was not afraid that he would die to Jiraiya, get over yourself.
He didn't want to kill Jiraiya, he didn't want to even capture Naruto in the first place.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Some believe that Itachi was actually talking about the Kyūbi no Yōko when he said the two of them would have problems. There's a nice thread about it. Like Orochimaru, they realized how threatening Naruto would be if the Kyūbi got out of control, and we know how scary KN6 and KN8 are. 

Which makes more sense as to why Itachi would say the rest of Akatsuki couldn't help due to Itachi and Kisame being the best equipped against the bijū, and why Itachi nor Kisame clearly didn't fear Jiraiya when face to face with him, but were alarmed when Naruto started leaking Kyūbi chakra.

*"We didn't think it would fool you anyways." *
"You want get Naruto." - *"And why not?"*
*"Why is retreat necessary for you...?"*

Jiraiya clearly wasn't the issue. He was little more than a nuisance as Itachi didn't even bother reacting immediately to his technique, but instead whispered to Sasuke and held him against the wall.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

I did not even think of that Selim O.O
hahaha


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Most of the translators who thought they were talking about Naruto have since changed their minds to it being Jiraiya. Like Gottheim, NJT, etc.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> That fear really showed itself when he took a moment to beat the hell out of his little brother and drop his strongest technique on him as a finisher in front of Jiraiya *after* he had already split his chakra in half with a clone earlier that day and used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi. He was shaking in his boots when he asked Jiraiya what he planned to do to stop them from taking Naruto, right?.


When Kisame was guarding him, right? When Jiraiya wasn't attacking yet?

ANd never mind, he'd had a nice gap between the two events and time to rest and recover as seen when he and Kisame were chilling out on the rocks, after having observed Jiraiya and Naruto.





> Itachi still dominated his mind depsite Naruto "using more power."


He said it still wasn't enough.
Jiraiya's much stronger



> Where do you get the idea that the clone broke the Genjutsu?


Itachi: I shouldn't have expected my genjutsu to work on you.
Notice how the genjutsu ends and Kakashi hasn't dropped.



xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Itachi was not afraid that he would die to Jiraiya, get over yourself.
> He didn't want to kill Jiraiya, he didn't want to even capture Naruto in the first place.


Yes, he did. He tried damn hard to do so and was going to let Kisame maim him.
Any evidence Itachi was lying about his chances?



Selim said:


> Some believe that Itachi was actually talking about the Kyūbi no Yōko when he said the two of them would have problems. There's a nice thread about it. Like Orochimaru, they realized how threatening Naruto would be if the Kyūbi got out of control.


Translation: YOU believe.
Suki believes otherwise, in fact, he had a whole thing on how this isn't the case in his translation of the scene.



> Which makes more sense as to why Itachi would say the rest of Akatsuki couldn't help due to Itachi and Kisame being the best equipped against the bijū, and why Itachi nor Kisame clearly didn't fear Jiraiya when face to face with him, but were alarmed when Naruto started leaking Kyūbi chakra.
> 
> *"We didn't think it would fool you anyways."
> *
> Jiraiya clearly wasn't the issue.



Let's make up stupid excuses, shall we?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Doof said:


> Most of the translators who thought they were talking about Naruto have since changed their minds to it being Jiraiya. Like Gottheim, NJT, etc.



Yes, but I think their change of heart is incorrect as the context pretty clearly speaks for itself. Did Itachi or Kisame seem remotely concerned with Jiraiya's appearance? Not even a little. Even after the conflict, Kisame was like, *"um, why did we leave just now? Retreat wasn't necessary."*

But the moment that got a whiff of Kyūbi chakra they both had exclamation marks, and Itachi snapped Sasuke's wrist saying *"you're in the way,"* and Kisame immediately used Samehada's special ability for the first time. They were worried Naruto had become a dangerous Jinchūriki.



Lightysnake said:


> Itachi: I shouldn't have expected my genjutsu to work on you. Notice how the genjutsu ends and Kakashi hasn't dropped.



Notice how Itachi says it's because Kakashi is a clone? Stop being so dishonest.


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

No answer to me Selim? I'm hurt


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Snake
The proof of Itachi lying is the fact that he isn't a true member of Akatsuki. It's as simple as that. Itachi is a natural pacifist, he had no personal gain in capturing Naruto or by killing Jiraiya, Itachi is not a villain, he simply chose not to fight.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Kyuubi's chakra came out before Jiraiya arrived, and they tried to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto as opposed to just stomping him and taking Naruto with them. Reading what the translators have said it seems they know what they're talking about, and the events that unfold really don't contradict such an interpretation.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 6, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> No answer to me Selim? I'm hurt



The reason that people give up answering you is because you're taking a side and fighting for it, instead of taking effort to offer a reasonable objective perspective. You fight AGAINST characters that you don't like and FOR characters that you do. 

It's fine to have favorite characters, but when you pump up abilities past what manga feast show, or what was implied by the manga, or base abilities off databook descriptions, we have problems.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Doof said:


> Kyuubi's chakra came out before Jiraiya arrived, and they tried to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto as opposed to just stomping him and taking Naruto with them. Reading what the translators have said it seems they know what they're talking about, and the events that unfold really don't contradict such an interpretation.



They also said that they knew luring Jiraiya way wouldn't work so your argument falls very flat.


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## Big Mom (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> Yes, but I think their change of heart is incorrect as the context pretty clearly speaks for itself. Did Itachi or Kisame seem remotely concerned with Jiraiya's appearance? Not even a little. Even after the conflict, Kisame was like, *"um, why did we leave just now? Retreat wasn't necessary."*
> 
> But the moment that got a whiff of Kyūbi chakra they both had exclamation marks, and Itachi snapped Sasuke's wrist saying *"you're in the way,"* and Kisame immediately used Samehada's special ability for the first time. They were worried Naruto had become a dangerous Jinchūriki.
> 
> ...



This. And to add to this, Naruto is a dangerous Jinchuriki. He has zero control over his tailed beast at this point and if something were to trigger him into Kn0+ form, all would pay.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 6, 2010)

> Kyuubi's chakra came out before Jiraiya arrived, and they tried to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto as opposed to just stomping him and taking Naruto with them.



I don't think you really understand that Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya, nor did he want to capture Naruto. The reason he was in Akatsuki, and the reason why he appeared in Kohana, was to make sure Sasuke was safe from Danzo and the Elders. 

Itachi played off Kisame's fears of Jiraiya at first - but it quickly became evident that Itachi was far more powerful than:...* base* Jiraiya. Which perfectly explains Kisame's surprise at their retreat and Itachi's casual attitude throughout the affair.

If you like, I can make an Itachi vs Base Jiraiya battledome thread.


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> The reason that people give up answering you is because you're taking a side and fighting for it, instead of taking effort to offer a reasonable objective perspective. You fight AGAINST characters that you don't like and FOR characters that you do.
> 
> It's fine to have favorite characters, but when you pump up abilities past what manga feast show, or what was implied by the manga, or base abilities off databook descriptions, we have problems.


Honestly I don't care what you think about me. I'm talking to Selim, not you.

I've already admitted Itachi can win against Jiraiya, because it is true, however I also know Itachi can lose against him and other shinobi. Itachi also happens to be one of my favorite characters, along with Jiraiya, Kirabi and Danzo. I've only seen other people "pump up their power past what was seen" like with "Healthy Itachi" or Bloodlusted Itachi". I'd like to see an example where I pumped up Jiraiya's feats past what was shown. I've admitted when I was wrong, whether it was with my favorite character or not. Care to do the same?


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## Smiley (Jun 6, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> If you like, I can make an Itachi vs Base Jiraiya battledome thread.



There's no need. Becuase we all know there are more Uchitards than Jiraiya fans.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> They also said that they knew luring Jiraiya way wouldn't work so your argument falls very flat.



No it doesn't, because the fact remains they say they need to keep Jiraiya away from them and then proceed to do so. You're the one going against what virtually every translator says, not me. You're rather quick to claim victory, everyone who doesn't have the same opinion as you isn't having their argument "fall flat".



Jinnobi said:


> I don't think you really understand that Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya, nor did he want to capture Naruto. The reason he was in Akatsuki, and the reason why he appeared in Kohana, was to make sure Sasuke was safe from Danzo and the Elders.
> 
> Itachi played off Kisame's fears of Jiraiya at first - but it quickly became evident that Itachi was far more powerful than:...* base* Jiraiya. Which perfectly explains Kisame's surprise at their retreat and Itachi's casual attitude throughout the affair.
> 
> If you like, I can make an Itachi vs Base Jiraiya battledome thread.



None of this changes the fact that he was talking about Jiraiya according to virtually every single translation. Whether he's lying or not is not my concern, all I'm saying is to deny the fact that every translation at least has him saying this is silly. And Itachi actually may've died had he tried fighting Jiraiya, because he wouldn't have had the stamina necessary to escape the toad esophagus.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

"Virtually every translator?" In case you didn't notice, the language is purposefully subtle with pronouns. What the translators opinion is is of no consequence to me. Context and common sense are enough.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> There's no need. Becuase we all know there are more Uchitards than Jiraiya fans.



Its crazy cause I am far from an Uchitard. My favorite characters are Kakashi Shikamaru and Naruto. As far as being a fan, Itachi and Jiraiya are on equal levels for me, and I find Sasuke to be grossly overestimated at times.

Yet I know that Itachi could rape stomp Jiraiya.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> Virtually every translator? Really? How many?



I thought Snake posted all this stuff before? Even the ones who originally thought he was talking about Naruto have changed their tune.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

Supreme Buu said:


> That's a great list L.O.T. but Jiraiya and Orochimaru are equal at best and kakashi is stronger than tsunade IMO.



Thanks dude. Base Oro and Base Jiraiya are probably about equal, but HM puts J-man above Oro. And yes, I do believe in a summons restricted fight Kakashi would win against Tsunade, but Kakashi doesn't really have a way to counter Katsuyu, IMO which is why I put her above him.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Doof said:


> I thought Snake posted all this stuff before? Even the ones who originally thought he was talking about Naruto have changed their tune.



And why is that? All of those translators were wrong?



Lord of Thunder said:


> Thanks dude. Base Oro and Base Jiraiya are probably about equal, but HM puts J-man above Oro. And yes, I do believe in a summons restricted fight Kakashi would win against Tsunade, but Kakashi doesn't really have a way to counter Katsuyu, IMO which is why I put her above him.



I don't know what you mean by Base Orochimaru, but an unrestricted Orochimaru would murderstomp Base Jiraiya.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

So common sense dictates the people like ShounenSuki who actually understand how such grammar would be used must be wrong because it might hype Jiraiya?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Do you know Shounensuki? I've read some of his translations and while I appreciate them, they are far from *clean*. And if you're so in love with translators then why do you disagree with *all* online sources that never mention this exchange and translate it completely differently?

Is Shounensuki simply superior to them all?


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> And why is that? All of those translators were wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what you mean by Base Orochimaru, but an unrestricted Orochimaru would murderstomp Base Jiraiya.



I mean without Tensei. They are more or less equal with one of them having a slight edge over the other probably. Wouldn't be a stomp in either direction by any means.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> Do you know Shounensuki? I've read some of his translations and while I appreciate them, they are far from *clean*. And if you're so in love with translators then why do you disagree with *all* online sources that never mention this exchange and translate it completely differently?
> 
> Is Shounensuki simply superior to them all?



ShounenSuki is extremely knowledgeable, and in that topic you're trying to use a proof that they were never talking about Jiraiya he explained in detail how the line went and how he came to the conclusion he did. He does this all the time. And there is precisely one translation, known for being part of a stretch of them that were particularly incoherent and poorly translated, that doesn't have any such exchange. Viz includes that exchange, almost if not every translator with actual credentials does, etc. If you're so adamant that they couldn't possibly think Jiraiya's that strong, take it up with the translators or just insist Itachi's lying.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim is basically trying to poison the well, a classic logical fallacy.
Rather than reevaluate his position, he is attacking the source any way he can. It's kind of sad.

And against the Hydra? Sink it.


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## Smiley (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> And against the Hydra? Sink it.



Or better yet, summon giant toads to handle it.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

naruto the best said:


> best list i have seen but i believe sasuke and naruto should be above Jiraiya/Itachi



Thanks for the compliment. MS Sasuke is certainly not above Itachi just yet. Itachi was leagues above Sasuke. This is evident in their fight. Itachi was half blind, holding back and sick, and still pushed Sasuke to use his best moves. And I believe J-man would win out against Naruto due to his versatility. EMS Sasuke and Naruto with full control over the Kyuubi puts them above their benchmarks.

I didn't include EMS or Kyuubi Control Naruto because I don't think we can accurately judge their power yet. Both of them will likely gain new powers.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Snake
What are you referencing when "Itachi okay'd the death of Konoha ninja?" How can you state that Itachi was going to allow the capture of Naruto anyways? Was Naruto captured? Nope. Itachi couldn't compromise himself by trying to blatantly avoid the needless killing that Kisame desired. There was simply no reason for Itachi to fight Jiraiya, he did not want the nine tails, he did not want to kill anyone, he did not want to give Madara more power, he did not want to kill Jiraiya.

I honestly don't understand how you could miss this big of a piece of the plot in this manga... You've clearly been around this forum longer than I have, and you seem to understand jutsus and characters inside and out.
Yet it seems that the fact that Itachi always had GOOD INTENTIONS has flown right over your head.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Snake
> What are you referencing when "Itachi okay'd the death of Konoha ninja?"


"Kisame! Take Kakashi out! And Asuma and Kurenai, make them disappear from this world!"
Some translations have "Take Kakashi with us," but all agree he said to kill Asuma and Kurenai



> How can you state that Itachi was going to allow the capture of Naruto anyways? Was Naruto captured? Nope. Itachi couldn't compromise himself by trying to blatantly avoid the needless killing that Kisame desired. There was simply no reason for Itachi to fight Jiraiya, he did not want the nine tails, he did not want to kill anyone, he did not want to give Madara more power, he did not want to kill Jiraiya.


"Naruto wasn't captured so Itachi didn't wanna."
Jiraiya had to save Naruto from getting maimed by Kisame. Itachi even said he was out of energy and had to rest, FYI. They COULDN'T



> I honestly don't understand how you could miss this big of a piece of the plot in this manga... You've clearly been around this forum longer than I have, and you seem to understand jutsus and characters inside and out.
> Yet it seems that the fact that Itachi always had GOOD INTENTIONS has flown right over your head.


He went about them in the wrong way and helped the most evil group around.
He also fucked Sasuke's head up good


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

See this is what I mean.. You completely missed the point of Itachi's character, and it honestly baffles me how you could have missed it by so much.
Itachi stayed with Akatsuki and messed with Sasuke so that Sasuke could grow up hating him. He wanted Sasuke to come and kill him, this would not only give Sasuke great power through the quest of becoming stronger than his older brother and through attaining the MS/EMS, but would also earn Sasuke the title of hero.

Oh, and as for telling Kisame to kill them, you mean here?

What was he supposed to do, say "oh darn, nevermind Kisame, we should go now." Yea.. thats not suspicious at all. He even says "don't go to far" >.>


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> See this is what I mean.. You completely missed the point of Itachi's character, and it honestly baffles me how you could have missed it by so much.
> Itachi stayed with Akatsuki and messed with Sasuke so that Sasuke could grow up hating him. He wanted Sasuke to come and kill him, this would not only give Sasuke great power through the quest of becoming stronger than his older brother and through attaining the MS/EMS, but would also earn Sasuke the title of hero.


And what about what Sasuke wanted? Was his mental wellbeing less important than Itachi's selfish martyr complex?
Oh, ITACHI wanted this, that REALLY justifies giving him horrific mental damage to put him in a trauma induced coma.
That justifies making sure he abandoned himself to hatred. And that he went to Orochimaru. good job, big bro. 




> Oh, and as for telling Kisame to kill them, you mean here?
> 
> What was he supposed to do, say "oh darn, nevermind Kisame, we should go now." Yea.. thats not suspicious at all. He even says "don't go to far" >.>



Right here.
In some translations he says to 'take Kakashi out' and he explicitly says to kill Kurenai and Asuma. They only retreat when Gai arrives.
They could've done so when Kakashi did. Instead? ITACHI TRIED TO STAB HIM IN THE BACK.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 6, 2010)

Does anyone actually believe the BS that Lightysnake says about Itachi?

Just curious.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi wished he could give Sasuke everything he wanted. But at the end of the day, he had to sacrifice that for the well being of the world, by not chancing another world ninja war. He then made the best of the situation by continuing to live, only to be killed by his brother who would then be deemed a hero. Allowing Sasuke to be taken by Orochimaru was allowed by Itachi because he knew his brother would grow strong enough to overcome Orochimaru and because Itachi thought it was only Sasuke's drive to kill him. Notice that when Orochimaru started to take over and overwhelm Sasuke, Itachi took care of it in one swipe. 

And with telling Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma, I have no explanation other than the fact that Itachi was trying to keep everyone under the illusion that he was evil. Once the identity of Akatsuki was compromised by Kakashi, Itachi had to react in a way that would keep Kisame believing that Itachi was on his side and to keep the Konoha nin believing that Itachi was evil.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi is likely a sensor-type anyway: throughout the manga he has shown the absolutely uncanny ability on numerous occasions to know when people are nearby and what direction they're coming from -- and could "feel" Orochimaru's Hydra technique, fight the Hydra, AND precisely stab Orochimaru with the Totsuka Sword _while completely blind_.

I have no doubt that Itachi knew Gai was coming, and that he would interfere.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Does anyone actually believe the BS that Lightysnake says about Itachi?
> 
> Just curious.



Well, I don't agree 100 percent, but I see where he is coming from. To some Itachi is a great hero, and to others he is a selfish murderer. It really depends on your point of view.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

I would love to hear *any* coherent line of reasoning that successfully paints Itachi as selfish. He is by far the most selfless individual in all of Narutoverse.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> I would love to hear *any* coherent line of reasoning that successfully paints Itachi as selfish. He is by far the most selfless individual in all of Narutoverse.



This. I'd like to hear the other side.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

Again, not my personal opinion. I believe Itachi was a hero. That's how Kishi wanted him to be portrayed, IMO. Just saying that it is possible to view him in a different light. One mans hero is another mans terrorist.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Haha I wasn't attacking you LoT  I honestly just don't understand how he can be seen as selfish or evil after the events unfolded in the manga.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Haha I wasn't attacking you LoT  I honestly just don't understand how he can be seen as selfish or evil after the events unfolded in the manga.



No harm done then. An argument I hear for the other side concerns the Uchiha Massacre. I'm sure the members of the clan that were killed would not view Itachi as a hero. It really depends on if you think the ends justify the means.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

But to be fair, it appeared as if the Uchiha were sentenced to death from the first place. The Uchiha coup de tat would bring about another ninja war, Itachi was forced to pick the lesser of two evils since avoiding the conflict altogether was impossible. Although, I'm guessing you came to that conclusion as well since you said you view Itachi as a hero.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

That still doesn't make Itachi selfish, however. He killed his family to prevent a Great Ninja War and to hold off Madara until he discovered a way to stop him. It's not like he profited in any way, on the contrary, he sacrificed nearly everything in the world that he cherished.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> But to be fair, it appeared as if the Uchiha were sentenced to death from the first place. The Uchiha coup de tat would bring about another ninja war, Itachi was forced to pick the lesser of two evils since avoiding the conflict altogether was impossible. Although, I'm guessing you came to that conclusion as well since you said you view Itachi as a hero.



Correct, I believe Itachi made the right choice considering the position he was in. He was backed into a corner with little time. 

The argument for that is whether Itachi's actions were justified. Some think they weren't, of course. Neither side is really wrong. Depends on how you think.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Itachi is likely a sensor-type anyway: throughout the manga he has shown the absolutely uncanny ability on numerous occasions to know when people are nearby and what direction they're coming from -- and could "feel" Orochimaru's Hydra technique, fight the Hydra, AND precisely stab Orochimaru with the Totsuka Sword _while completely blind_.
> 
> I have no doubt that Itachi knew Gai was coming, and that he would interfere.


Then you are ignoring evidence.
Notably the *EXCLAMATION POINT* above Itachi's head when Gai arrives





xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Itachi wished he could give Sasuke everything he wanted. But at the end of the day, he had to sacrifice that for the well being of the world, by not chancing another world ninja war.


Know what he did? Gave the enemy its greatest weapon: Sasuke.
He made Sasuke want hatred and revenge



> He then made the best of the situation by continuing to live, only to be killed by his brother who would then be deemed a hero. Allowing Sasuke to be taken by Orochimaru was allowed by Itachi because he knew his brother would grow strong enough to overcome Orochimaru and because Itachi thought it was only Sasuke's drive to kill him.


Funny. Know what this requires?
He had to know they'd get Tsunade to come save Sasuke and Rock Lee in an incredibly risky operation to repair him to full power.
He'd have to know of the Sound Four coming to collect Sasuke. He had to know the Konoha genin there would have techniques that only their clan knew of to allow them to fight back against the Sound four and delay them. He had to know of Lee as only his arrival delayed Kimimaro enough to prevent Sasuke from reaching Orochimaru in time.

In other words: Only by some *LUCKY ACCIDENTS* and unexpected skill of the young Konoha nin did Sasuke not reach Orochimaru in time for the transfer. Itachi tried to force Sasuke to get the MS BEFORE they fought, meaning he was trying to get him to murder his best friend. And Sasuke TRIED. He only barely relented at the end


> Notice that when Orochimaru started to take over and overwhelm Sasuke, Itachi took care of it in one swipe.


notice that was because Orochimaru got arrogant. If he just grabbed Sasuke's body instead of trying to fight, what would've happened?



> And with telling Kisame to kill Kurenai and Asuma, I have no explanation other than the fact that Itachi was trying to keep everyone under the illusion that he was evil. Once the identity of Akatsuki was compromised by Kakashi, Itachi had to react in a way that would keep Kisame believing that Itachi was on his side and to keep the Konoha nin believing that Itachi was evil.


Itachi was surprised Gai saved them. He had no way to know.
In keeping up the illusion, he was prepared to weaken Konoha and kill three good people.
One of whom was the son of Sasuke's savior: Hiruzen Sarutobi. 

How selfish and cruel can you get? What was the point of giving Sasuke a Tsukuyomi after violently beating him? Itachi didn't even know sasuke could recover! They needed freaking TSUNADE for that!

What about letting Kisame assault Naruto? If Jiraiya hadn't arrived a that last SECOND? Hell, if Kisame even took a second less of talking?


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> I would love to hear *any* coherent line of reasoning that successfully paints Itachi as selfish. He is by far the most selfless individual in all of Narutoverse.


I agree with Selim here. The only thing I could remotely think of that would make Itachi seem selfish is not killing Sasuke.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

He put his own martyr complex above Sasuke's well being, brutally tortured him into joining Orochimaru...
Great work, Itachi


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Know what he did? Gave the enemy its greatest weapon: Sasuke.
> He made Sasuke want hatred and revenge
> 
> *Which was the result of Sasuke's encounter with Madara, an encounter which he had hoped would be avoided by the hidden Amaterasu. Itachi never wanted Sasuke to know the truth, he hoped the hatred and revenge would end with him.*
> ...


ten characters


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

> Which was the result of Sasuke's encounter with Madara, an encounter which he had hoped would be avoided by the hidden Amaterasu. Itachi never wanted Sasuke to know the truth, he hoped the hatred and revenge would end with him.


Who gave Sasuke all that hatred and mental instability?



> Zetsu was supposedly watching the entire time, whose to say Itachi wouldn't have intervened if he needed to? The point is that Sasuke's body wasn't taken, there is zero evidence that Itachi would have allowed that.


Itachi was nowhere CLOSE. Zetsu didn't give a rat's ass. In fact, he thought Orochimaru HAD taken Sasuke! He even said "Orochimaru has gained the Sharingan"  and one Akatsuki said "Itachi...that means your brother is..."
Itachi said nothing.
Itachi didn't save Sasuke from going to Orochimaru, now did he? PRove he was in the area, or even close. Because if he was, Kisame would never have let it go without attacking Orochimaru. He stated Pain was forcing them to search for Orochimaru constantly later on. 



> What? Orochimaru thought he could take on Itachi, and was strongly mistaken. And it's more than fair to say that Orochimaru=Jiraiya, so to bring this back to what we were originally debating, Itachi>Orochimaru=Jiraiya


Know how dumb it sounds when you use A>B>C logic? 
Jiraiya actually>Orochimaru anyways. And Orochimaru was weakened and arrogant at that juncture. Her didn't even have a body.
Itachi stated otherwise, GET THE FUCK OVER IT.



> Tough shit huh? What else was Itachi supposed to do?


Duhhhhh, I dunno, not go to Konoha? when Danzo wasn't even going to touch Sasuke anyways? Leave when Kakashi showed up instead of trying to murder him? They left when Gai did.



> Right.. the Tsukuyomi on Sasuke was to keep Sasukes hatred high. He needed Sasuke to hate him to then become stronger so he could allow his little brother to take him down.


Are you even capable of admitting Itachi is fallible? It sent Sauske into Orochimaru's grasp, nearly got Sasuke killed thanks to that, it put Sasuke in a coma they needed Tsunade to help him out of...
How about what Sasuke wanted and needed? It started Sasuke down into the road of abeing a monster.



> Again, tough shit. What was Itachi supposed to do, he had to keep his cover, simple as that. And the statements Juubi made about Gai and beingf a sensory type may not apply for teh Gai situation, but they certainly do for this one.


It was ITACHI'S idea to go after Naruto and distract Jiraiya. He could've said "We can't beat him, let's go." Kisame sure would've bought that.

And again, Itachi and Kisame were surprised in both instances. Itachi 'might' be a sensor, but Samehada definitely is and it had no warning for either events.

Keep the bad argument coming.


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## Aoshi (Jun 6, 2010)

Selim said:


> .
> 
> It's just manga characters. Sick, dying, blind Itachi against Jiraiya with all of their canonical knowledge, which means Jiraiya has knowledge of two of Itachi's deadliest techniques and his skill with Genjutsu to avoid being raped like Deidara or Orochimaru while Itachi knows virtually nothing.
> 
> The distance is also 100 meters and I wonder who that helps most? Jiraiya who needs time to enter Hermit Mode or the close range fighter, Itachi? That fight was *stacked* for Jiraiya, and the majority still feel Itachi would win, and for good reason, because he is the superior shinobi even when handicapped.



_Where do you see that it's only manga characters? Did you bother reading the post afterward? Most of the people arguing were arguing Healthy Itachi vs HM Jiraiya. 

Also, Itachi fans, no matter who they are, will always believe that a Sick Itachi could defeat HM Jiraiya, while Jiraiya fans will always believe that Base Jiraiya can defeat Healthy Itachi. The only thing that thread proves is that there are more Itachi fans that there are Jiraiya fans. _


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## Jinnobi (Jun 6, 2010)

I'll pull a bad argument: KISHI _says _ that Itachi is a hero. He also says in an interview that Itachi is ironic, because he's a *gentle soul* but it's his *gentleness* that caused him to be a shinobi in the first place.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Being a hero =/= being always right or a good person. He saved Konoha from a ninja war? Makes him a hero.

He did a lot of things that were plain wrong and cruel.


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## Jinnobi (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> He did a lot of things that were plain wrong and cruel.



It would've been more wrong and cruel if he didn't do them.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Like what he did to his brother so he could satisfy his martyr complex. And to Naruto. And to Asuma and Kurenai.


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## Doof (Jun 6, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> It would've been more wrong and cruel if he didn't do them.



What is more wrong and cruel about not viciously torturing his brother and turning him from a gentle child into a person who values hatred and power above all else? I don't entirely agree with either of you here, but nothing he did to keep Sasuke on the avenger path was needed or merciful.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Keeping Sasuke on the avenger path was very nessasary. Itachi made it so that Sasuke hated the last living Uchiha and made it so that Sasuke's young life would be a quest for power. If Sasuke did not hate his brother, Sarutobi would have had an impossible task of trying to keep Sasuke safe because the elders would fear Sasuke joining his brother. No, I don't really have proof of that, but it seems like common sense to me. 
Also, Sasuke needed to be able to protect himself for his entire life. As the last living Uchiha Itachi knew that people like Orochimaru and Madara would have their eyes on Sasuke, and Sasuke would need to be ready to defend himself. He made sure Sasuke would be ready by having him train to kill his older brother, and by doing so attaining the EMS and the MS if he had not already done so.
Unfortunetly, his plan began to backfire. He did not expect his brother to be idiotic enough to discard all of the things Itachi had done for him by joining forces with Madara, and he did all he can to prevent that from happening by implanting the booby-trapped Amaterasu. He also prepared for the worst with the Naruto crow-job.
Itachi always made the best of terrible situations, but due to being a member of Askatsuki and having to make sure his brother hated him enough to kill him, he had to keep his act as a villain going. Itachi had to make sure that not only Sasuke hated him, but Konoha hated him, so that not only would Sasuke become stronger, but Sasuke would then be able to return home-- as a hero.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Keeping Sasuke on the avenger path was very nessasary. Itachi made it so that Sasuke hated the last living Uchiha and made it so that Sasuke's young life would be a quest for power. If Sasuke did not hate his brother, Sarutobi would have had an impossible task of trying to keep Sasuke safe because the elders would fear Sasuke joining his brother. No, I don't really have proof of that, but it seems like common sense to me.


Just seeing that Itachi murdered his family was enough. Mental torture was too much



> Also, Sasuke needed to be able to protect himself for his entire life. As the last living Uchiha Itachi knew that people like Orochimaru and Madara would have their eyes on Sasuke, and Sasuke would need to be ready to defend himself. He made sure Sasuke would be ready by having him train to kill his older brother, and by doing so attaining the EMS and the MS if he had not already done so.


In other words, he was making him into a monster who'd sell out his body to Orochimaru for power.
Great going. If not for a series of mistakes and accidents, Orochimaru would've had the Sharingan


> Unfortunetly, his plan began to backfire. He did not expect his brother to be idiotic enough to discard all of the things Itachi had done for him by joining forces with Madara, and he did all he can to prevent that from happening by implanting the booby-trapped Amaterasu. He also prepared for the worst with the Naruto crow-job.


Is Itachi stupid enough not to see what he did to Sasuke? He made him into a hate filled shell! He made him join Orochimaru



> Itachi always made the best of terrible situations, but due to being a member of Askatsuki and having to make sure his brother hated him enough to kill him, he had to keep his act as a villain going. Itachi had to make sure that not only Sasuke hated him, but Konoha hated him, so that not only would Sasuke become stronger, but Sasuke would then be able to return home-- as a hero.



Itachi was willing to murder and hurt innocents and torture his beloved brother to follow a path HE wanted. Nothing more. What he did was cruel and unnecessary and if Itachi was stupid enough to think it'd go without a hitch? Pathetic


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

I just think that it is baffling how you completely missed the point of one of Kishimoto's most developed characters. An example of complex thought and effort went into the design of Itachi's character, beyond the cliche of just a hero like Naruto or just a Machiavellian like Danzo, and it went right over your head.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Okay, no. Exposition is not development. Itachi never developed when he was alive in the story. Naruto and Danzo had way more depth than Itachi in the manga itself. Having a character basically go "Haaha, you know nothing, let me tell you the truth!" is NOT true character development. It's telling, not showing. 

I am also saying what Itachi did at times was cruel, unnecessary and it would've backfired spectacularly at numerous junctures if not for circumstances outside his control.


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## Smiley (Jun 6, 2010)

Immortality, to be honest, that is a very good thoery. + Repped. I won't be suprised if Kishi himself said that was the main purpose of Itachi. Nice one


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Like what he did to his brother so he could satisfy his martyr complex. And to Naruto. And to Asuma and Kurenai.



Unsurprisingly, you don't know what you're talking about. Saving his brother at the cost of the greater good is not something someone with a martyr complex would do.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

No. What he did was fuck Sasuke's mind up horribly, force him to devote himself to revenge and hatred and rage, all so Sasuke could kill him and follow the path ITACHI chose for him, without any regard to what Sasuke wanted.

We see the result in what Sasuke's become.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Because it would have been much better for Sasuke to be too weak to defend himself from Madara along with not having the trust of Konoha as an eight year old... waaaait...


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

KazujiN said:


> Immortality, to be honest, that is a very good thoery. + Repped. I won't be suprised if Kishi himself said that was the main purpose of Itachi. Nice one



sankyuu


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

The plan being fucked up wasn't Itachi's fault. Sasuke is a mess who joined with Itachi's accomplice, who actually *wanted* his family dead in the first place, to now go and kill all of his friends back home, which is the same home Itachi devoted his life to protecting *because* Sasuke feels it was there fault and not Madara's... somehow. 

And Itachi *foresaw* that possibility. Greatest planning feat right there. However, I have theories as to why this is the case, but I won't mention them here. Suffice to say, when the holes begin to be filled in, Itachi's preconceptions will become more impressive, guaranteed.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Because it would have been much better for Sasuke to be too weak to defend himself from Madara along with not having the trust of Konoha as an eight year old... waaaait...



Sasuke was a genius talen as it was and growing stronger.
Konoha as a whole trusted Sasuke. His classmates and teachers admired and looked up to him-Naruto was the one who didn't like him because Sasuke was popular and 'cool.' 

Are you comprehending yourself? Itachi as good as served him up to Orochimaru on a silver platter. Orochimaru would've taken his body. Could Itachi have known he'd be delayed just minutes? Could he have predicted Sasuke would overpower Orochimaru later That's a MAJOR stretch as he couldn't know of Orochimaru's illness. More to the point is that he also couldn't predict the effect spending three years with a guy who murdered 60 infants as a test would have on Sasuke's morality. There are serious downsides to this plan. You don't help Konoha by killing three of its stronger Jonin and making its best hope for the future a cripple


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

That would have been an epic fight. Orochimaru in a 13 year old Sasuke's body against a 17 year old Itachi. Orochimaru still would lose to Susano'o though.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Yeah, Orochimaru was in a little girl's body and look how strong he was. Know what gaining Sasuke'd do? Give Orochimaru the Sharingan. With that, he'd never challenge Akatsuki right off. He'd go further, unlock its secrets, get even stronger, ambush and kill Sasori during one of Kabuto's meetings with him.

Orochimaru wouldn't waltz up to akatsuki the second he got the Sharingan. What it would do is unlock new potential in him, make him stronger than ever and in the long run, would certainly mean he could kill nearly every Akatsuki member. Knowing him, he'd work up to the Rinnegan next.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 6, 2010)

I'd think that Itachi would hunt him down at that point, but yeah, Orochimaru with Mangekyō Sharingan would be overwhelming although I'm hoping he'll come back through Kabuto and snag the Rinnegan to be set up as one of the final villains.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Itachi and Kisame were looking for Orochimaru. They couldn't find him. Remember what Kisame said? "Orochimaru's dead huh? Guess we can all stop hunting him now." Kisame would surely hunt to the best of his ability and Itachi would definitely want Orochimaru dead as he's the biggest threat to Konoha. 

If Itachi found Orochimaru with the Sharingan, it would be on Orochimaru's terms, in a battlefieled and situation skewed to Orochimaru's liking. Itachi's chances would not look rosy. 

Orochimaru is likely gone, though. Kabuto has a chance to be something very special or just EMS fodder, hopefully the former.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

I can see Oro overtaking Kabuto and coming back stronger then ever.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

Hope springs eternal, Baldrick.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Sasuke was a genius talen as it was and growing stronger.
> Konoha as a whole trusted Sasuke. His classmates and teachers admired and looked up to him-Naruto was the one who didn't like him because Sasuke was popular and 'cool.'
> 
> Are you comprehending yourself? Itachi as good as served him up to Orochimaru on a silver platter. Orochimaru would've taken his body. Could Itachi have known he'd be delayed just minutes? Could he have predicted Sasuke would overpower Orochimaru later That's a MAJOR stretch as he couldn't know of Orochimaru's illness. More to the point is that he also couldn't predict the effect spending three years with a guy who murdered 60 infants as a test would have on Sasuke's morality. There are serious downsides to this plan. You don't help Konoha by killing three of its stronger Jonin and making its best hope for the future a cripple



Sasuke was no where near the level he needed to be. In order to compete with a ninja like Madara, he had to get close to Itachi's level. At the current rate Sasuke was going, he'd always be behind his older brother. Itachi gave him added incentive. Konoha as a whole trusted Sasuke because they knew he wanted Itachi dead. If Sasuke still loved his older brother, or even wanted to love his older brother, the elders would be highly worried and skeptical. You cite the children in the schools as if they represent the majority of the Konoha population. 
As for "knowing" about Orochimaru, its called having faith, not only in his brother but in Konoha as a whole. Itachi was in a situation where reacting to Sasuke's capture would destroy his entire plan, he was either biting his nails the entire time hoping Konoha would pull through, or was as cool as a cat knowing that everything would be alright at the end. He also knew that Orochimaru would be no match for Sasuke sick or not, Orochimaru was Itachi's bitch, and if Sasuke was on the path of getting close to Itachi's level, then Orochimaru would be no problem for Sasuke, as he wasn't. And as for the mental toll of being with Orochimaru, there really wasn't much of a difference between Sasuke's character in the beginning of part 2 and the end of part 1. Was he a bit more cold? Sure. But he was still good at heart, never shedding useless blood.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Sasuke was no where near the level he needed to be. In order to compete with a ninja like Madara, he had to get close to Itachi's level. At the current rate Sasuke was going, he'd always be behind his older brother. Itachi gave him added incentive. Konoha as a whole trusted Sasuke because they knew he wanted Itachi dead. If Sasuke still loved his older brother, or even wanted to love his older brother, the elders would be highly worried and skeptical. You cite the children in the schools as if they represent the majority of the Konoha population.



Okay, show me proof Sasuke was ever not trusted by the population at large. No evidence of this is ever shown. He's beloved by nearly everyone save like three people- the elders. And even then, Homura and Koharu didn't care. And Danzo showed no sign of breaking his word, even when Hiruzen died. Nobody in Konoha, save the top top brass knew of the Uchiha's coup or suspected them. In fact, the Uchiha are shown to be beloved and the massacre is remembered with horror.
And Sasuke was gaining speed from his training. He did not need to have his life so stupidly risked or forced into that position. His choices were taken away. 



> As for "knowing" about Orochimaru, its called having faith, not only in his brother but in Konoha as a whole. Itachi was in a situation where reacting to Sasuke's capture would destroy his entire plan, he was either biting his nails the entire time hoping Konoha would pull through, or was as cool as a cat knowing that everything would be alright at the end. He also knew that Orochimaru would be no match for Sasuke sick or not, Orochimaru was Itachi's bitch, and if Sasuke was on the path of getting close to Itachi's level, then Orochimaru would be no problem for Sasuke, as he wasn't.


This reeks of Uchiha fanboyism.
Have 'faith?' In what, Konoha will go get Tsunade and bring her back to heal a genin Itachi doesn't even know EXISTS? That's the only reason sasuke was spared oblivion and Orochimaru didn't get his body.
He couldn't 'know' everything would be alright. In fact, if Naruto had been a fraction of a second slower, he'd have died and Sasuke would have the MS...giving Orochimaru THAT, too.
And Orochimaru was a match for Sasuke. Sasuke only credited his victory to Orochimaru being sick at the time. Sasuke had no way to kill him




> And as for the mental toll of being with Orochimaru, there really wasn't much of a difference between Sasuke's character in the beginning of part 2 and the end of part 1. Was he a bit more cold? Sure. But he was still good at heart, never shedding useless blood.


A 'bit?' "Hi, guys, I feel like murdering you right now. Just cause I feel like it."
He was ready to kill Naruto and everyone else on a whim. He casually impaled Naruto who turned out to be a bunshin. 

You're basically saying Itachi knew he was in a Shonen manga. He didn't. His actions nearly resulted in Sasuke's death. He permanently traumatized him and led him down the road he followed


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Oh boy >.> I didn't say he wasn't trusted in the circumstance he's in now, I was saying that he wouldn't be trusted if he didn't want Itachi dead so badly. The elders would not have allowed for Sasuke to grow stronger in fear of him joining forces with his brother in the long run, by making Sasuke hate him so much, Itachi made it so the elders didn't think twice about Sasuke's safety. 

Lawl. So I'm an Uchiha fanboy? With the Naruto sig? When I've openly admitted that my favorite characters are Kakashi and Shikamaru, followed by Itachi and Jiraiya (who are tied) When I openly stated that I think Sasuke is one of the most overrated ninja in the manga? I'm an Uchiha fanboy, that's lulzy. 
And since you mentioned it, let's not forget this is a shonen manga. Any holes you try and find, you can take your pick. Either A. Itachi was trying to maintain the belief that he was a villain or B. It's a fictional manga and Kishi didn't want to make it too obvious that Itachi wasn't a villain, take your pick bud.
Orochimaru being sick made it so there physical battle came out with Sasuke on top, the sickness shouldn't have effected Orochimaru's genjutsu in any way, which Sasuke shat on just like Itachi did.
And as for Sasuke's character change, it really wasn't drastic until after Itachi died. But let's not go off on that tangent, we're already going off more than we should be.


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## Big Mom (Jun 6, 2010)

Honestly, I feel Kabuto is going to be ultimate fail. All he has going is a few snakes and Edo Tensei. Thats his only power. And once Edo Tensei is gone, he is worthless.


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Honestly, I feel Kabuto is going to be ultimate fail. All he has going is a few snakes and Edo Tensei. Thats his only power. And once Edo Tensei is gone, he is worthless.



I wouldn't right him off just yet Hiruzen. He presumably has all of Oro's jutsu, and possibly some others.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> Oh boy >.> I didn't say he wasn't trusted in the circumstance he's in now, I was saying that he wouldn't be trusted if he didn't want Itachi dead so badly. The elders would not have allowed for Sasuke to grow stronger in fear of him joining forces with his brother in the long run, by making Sasuke hate him so much, Itachi made it so the elders didn't think twice about Sasuke's safety.



What is the basis for this? Sasuke never advertised his hatred. He refused to discuss Itachi more often than not. He only said there was a 'certain someone' he was going to kill. When did all of Konoha make the connection? Prove your points. 

Hell, the elders might've loved Sasuke to be helped by Itachi since all four of them knew Itachi's true allegiance



> Lawl. So I'm an Uchiha fanboy? With the Naruto sig? When I've openly admitted that my favorite characters are Kakashi and Shikamaru, followed by Itachi and Jiraiya (who are tied) When I openly stated that I think Sasuke is one of the most overrated ninja in the manga? I'm an Uchiha fanboy, that's lulzy.


Okay,k fine, Itachi fanboy? You've declared him as more powerful than Pain, Jiraiya and are listing him as utterly moral and right in everything he did?



> And since you mentioned it, let's not forget this is a shonen manga. Any holes you try and find, you can take your pick. Either A. Itachi was trying to maintain the belief that he was a villain or B. It's a fictional manga and Kishi didn't want to make it too obvious that Itachi wasn't a villain, take your pick bud.


There's a problem: Under the knowledge Itachi had, he couldn't have known these things.  He took too many leaps and required a ton of luck



> Orochimaru being sick made it so there physical battle came out with Sasuke on top, the sickness shouldn't have effected Orochimaru's genjutsu in any way, which Sasuke shat on just like Itachi did.


Oh, for fuck's sake, learn what you're talking about. Sasuke seized control of Orochimaru's world inside him and took him over.
 It had NOTHING to do with Genjutsu, Orochimaru laughed the Genjutsu off. How did this happen? As Sasuke said: Orochimaru was weak, all there was to it. Hell, Orochimaru had Sasuke paralyzed and helpless before swallowing him



> And as for Sasuke's character change, it really wasn't drastic until after Itachi died. But let's not go off on that tangent, we're already going off more than we should be.


Remember when he tried killing Sakura, Naruto, Yamato and Sai with no remorse?


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## Big Mom (Jun 6, 2010)

Have we seen him use any of these? Nope. 

Honestly, way too much hype for him already.

Also, Updated top 7 list:

1) Hiruzen
2) hashirama
3) Tobirama
4) Minato
5) Madara
6) Nagato
7) Hiruko(movie)


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## Thunder (Jun 6, 2010)

Tobirama seems quite high for a top 7 list. I would put him at the bottom on your list, but personally I don't think he makes top 7 or top 10 for that matter.


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## Immortal (Jun 6, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> What is the basis for this? Sasuke never advertised his hatred. He refused to discuss Itachi more often than not. He only said there was a 'certain someone' he was going to kill. When did all of Konoha make the connection? Prove your points.
> 
> Hell, the elders might've loved Sasuke to be helped by Itachi since all four of them knew Itachi's true allegiance
> 
> ...


*I'm dropping this, *mainly because my proof is only common sense. If Sasuke did not hate Itachi, they'd be skeptical as to why he was left alive, and when you don't understand something, you fear it.

No >.> I'm not an Itachi fanboy nub. I just understand that Itachi has the ultimate offence and defence in Susano'o, and more. I never said that what Itachi did was perfect, but he did make the best decision with what he was given. Itachi was in a situation where no matter what, everything was going to suck. So he chose the route where the least damage would be done, and personally it cost him everything. If that's not good, idk wtf is.

Like I said in the last post, take your pick. If "Kishi left holes in Itachi's thought process cause it's a shonen manga" floats your boat, then good for you.

Yea you're right, I misspoke. However, with Sasuke's growth with the Sharingan the ritual had no effect on him, just as it had not with Itachi, I'm sure Itachi predicted the same result with Sasuke.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 6, 2010)

xXl Immortality lXx said:


> *I'm dropping this, *mainly because my proof is only common sense. If Sasuke did not hate Itachi, they'd be skeptical as to why he was left alive, and when you don't understand something, you fear it.


*Sigh* Okay, can I ask where you're getting this? Nobody was skeptical to why Sasuke was left alive. The Elders knew he was leaving Sasuke alive. Sasuke didn't advertise his hatred...he just didn't socialize. Everyone was all "That poor guy" anyways...
Hiruzen wa snever going to allow Sasuke to come to harm



> No >.> I'm not an Itachi fanboy nub. I just understand that Itachi has the ultimate offence and defence in Susano'o, and more. I never said that what Itachi did was perfect, but he did make the best decision with what he was given. Itachi was in a situation where no matter what, everything was going to suck. So he chose the route where the least damage would be done, and personally it cost him everything. If that's not good, idk wtf is.


Tell me, how is it perfect if it kills him to maintain for a limited time? Jiraiya can also trap it and Pain can get through in a variety of ways. Kishi went to lengths to portray Jiraiya and Itachi as equals. And he's not stronger than Pain, not by far



> Like I said in the last post, take your pick. If "Kishi left holes in Itachi's thought process cause it's a shonen manga" floats your boat, then good for you.


It makes Itachi way less of a good guy



> Yea you're right, I misspoke. However, with Sasuke's growth with the Sharingan the ritual had no effect on him, just as it had not with Itachi, I'm sure Itachi predicted the same result with Sasuke.


He didn't use the ritual on Itachi, it ended before they ever got to that point.

And it only failed with Sasuke because Orochimaru was weak. Sasuke said as much.


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## Judecious (Jun 6, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Have we seen him use any of these? Nope.
> 
> Honestly, way too much hype for him already.
> 
> ...



to high, the way hiruzen spoke of minato it seems like minato>him


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## Sanbi (Jun 6, 2010)

Hiruzen belongs at the bottom of that top 7 list, if not higher then Tobirama and whoever the hell Hiruko is. Tobirama is way too high as well.


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruzen you seem to overestimate Hiraku too much; He is Slightly above Kakashi's level at best.


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## Judecious (Jun 7, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> the hell Hiruko is.



villain in Naruto Shippūden 3: Inheritors of the Will of Fire


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## rstyled (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruko has the power and abilities to be one of the strongest but.. wasn't the smartest eventually.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Have we seen him use any of these? Nope.
> 
> Honestly, way too much hype for him already.
> 
> ...



What, no Onoki (sarcasm)? (fail list)


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> What, no Onoki (sarcasm)? (fail list)



SHUT THE HELL UP!


Also, I have yet to here any reason why Tobirama shouldn't be on the top 7 list.

Hiruzen spoke of Minato as the potential to be the strongest, but he died to early to.

Hiruko had skills to boot and that ninjutsu absorbtion was really tough.


Also, I forgot about Onoki...


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Actually, your 2001. I was 2000.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> SHUT THE HELL UP!
> 
> 
> Also, I have yet to here any reason why Tobirama shouldn't be on the top 7 list.
> ...




Look, you put a guy who died by 20 random shinobis, ABOVE someone who could wipe out an entire army of Shinobis by himself, do the math.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> Look, you put a guy who died by 20 random shinobis, ABOVE someone who could wipe out an entire army by himself, do the math.



They obviously were strong ninjas granted they surrounded Hiruzen, Danzo, etc.

Also, Hashirama died in the SAME war so don;t talk. 

these 20 ninjas were elite fighters and how many died and if Tobirama even tried is still up for debate. But I highly doubt that army was full of elites.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> They obviously were strong ninjas granted they surrounded Hiruzen, Danzo, etc.



Still.. 20 RANDOM/fodder ninjas.



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Also, Hashirama died in the SAME war so don;t talk.



Yeah, Imho Minato >> Hashirama



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> these 20 ninjas were elite fighters and how many died and if Tobirama even tried is still up for debate. But I highly doubt that army was full of elites.



I can't believe that you are serious. 

You are the first guy who I've seen, putting Tobirama above Minato, that's just stupid


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## Itachi Solos (Jun 7, 2010)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Nagato/Pain
> 2. Hashirama
> 3. Madara
> 4. Minato
> ...



what the heck is this list 

1.where is rikodu sennin

2.hiruzen and minato were stronger than hasirama and madara link:  so eat it!

3.hashirama and madara are stronger than nagato


4.sasuke is stronger than killer bee , a,naruto and jiraya 

5.itachi is stronger than diedara and naruto

6.kisame is stronger than killer b ,and orochimaru and the two fifth kages


this is just the important ones i don't even wanna talk about the rest


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## Lord Potato (Jun 7, 2010)

tamaandf said:


> what the heck is this list
> 
> 1.where is rikodu sennin
> 
> ...




Hashirama and -Madara (by feats)- stronger than Nagato? No.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Karl said:


> Still.. 20 RANDOM/fodder ninjas.



At least 20 they said. And atleast 20 elite warriors who were known as the kajuki(sp?) force.





> Yeah, Imho Minato >> Hashirama



Opinion is opinion





> I can't believe that you are serious.
> 
> You are the first guy who I've seen, putting Tobirama above Minato, that's just stupid



Believe it. 

Okay, good to know.


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## Lord Potato (Jun 7, 2010)

I still don't believe it :/


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Good to know.


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## Aoshi (Jun 7, 2010)

Selim said:


> .
> 
> It's just manga characters. Sick, dying, blind Itachi against Jiraiya with all of their canonical knowledge, which means Jiraiya has knowledge of two of Itachi's deadliest techniques and his skill with Genjutsu to avoid being raped like Deidara or Orochimaru while Itachi knows virtually nothing.
> 
> The distance is also 100 meters and I wonder who that helps most? Jiraiya who needs time to enter Hermit Mode or the close range fighter, Itachi? That fight was *stacked* for Jiraiya, and the majority still feel Itachi would win, and for good reason, because he is the superior shinobi even when handicapped.



_I'm just going to re-post this post because I think you saw it Selim. If you choose to ignore this, I consider myself the victor in this debate. _

_Where do you see that it's only manga characters? Did you bother reading the post afterward? Most of the people arguing were arguing Healthy Itachi vs HM Jiraiya.

Also, Itachi fans, no matter who they are, will always believe that a Sick Itachi could defeat HM Jiraiya, while Jiraiya fans will always believe that Base Jiraiya can defeat Healthy Itachi. The only thing that thread proves is that there are more Itachi fans that there are Jiraiya fans. _


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

KnownTitanKid said:


> _Where do you see that it's only manga characters? Did you bother reading the post afterward? Most of the people arguing were arguing Healthy Itachi vs HM Jiraiya._



They stated "this is a response to" that doesn't make it the thread or the poll.



KnownTitanKid said:


> while Jiraiya fans will always believe that Base Jiraiya can defeat Healthy Itachi.



Make a poll then, Titan. That's simply not true.


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## Aoshi (Jun 7, 2010)

Selim said:


> They stated "this is a response to" that doesn't make it the thread or the poll.
> 
> 
> 
> Make a poll then, Titan. That's simply not true.



_I will not make a poll, because the moderators will delete my post.  _


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Because it's a stupid poll where as HM Jiraiya v [sick] Itachi at long range is not.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Healthy Itachi is an invention of Uchiha fans, nothing more


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

It's an invention of Madara and Zetsu, nothing less.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Great. So he has some quantifiable feats then?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

The only thing we know for sure is that he was much stronger, significantly faster, and moves and attacks differently as those were in Zetsu's direct commentary. He was better.

Considering his showing against Hebi Sasuke who was arguably the strongest character shown up until that point, _especially_ when including Orochimaru, then healthy Itachi was a beast.


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## Aoshi (Jun 7, 2010)

Selim said:


> Because it's a stupid poll where as HM Jiraiya v [sick] Itachi at long range is not.



_No, because it's been done before, except with different conditions. That poll Chainer made was meant to serve for ANY Itachi vs Jiraiya thread. _


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 7, 2010)

tamaandf said:


> what the heck is this list
> 
> 1.where is rikodu sennin


He's something called a 'Level 0' in my book, no need to put him on.




> 3.hashirama and madara are stronger than nagato


Hashirama and Madara are not stronger than Nagato. They can't destroy a village.



> 4.sasuke is stronger than killer bee , a,naruto and jiraya


So that's why Killer Bee and A demolished and played with Sasuke, rendering his best abilities moot newbie. And Naruto and Sasuke are _equals_ Uchiha kid. And Jiraiya is still stronger than both.


> 5.itachi is stronger than diedara and naruto


Deidara can stay out of Itachi's range and disentegrate him with C4 and when Itachi can hip toss Kyubi and actually _damage_ him we'll talk.


> 6.kisame is stronger than killer b ,and orochimaru and the two fifth kages


Kisame isn't stronger than Killer Bee, Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Mei. His abilities are tailor made to fighting Jinchuuriki and Bijuu, it doesn't mean he's stronger than them. And Kisame admitted inferiority to all three Sannin, which includes Orochimaru and Tsunade. And Mei has two bloodlines that'd be deadly to Kisame.



> this is just the important ones i don't even wanna talk about the rest


Because you think anyone with a Uchiha name needs to be stronger than everyone else.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

HAHAHA That thread of the Kishi interview proves me right all along! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

+reps for me!


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

THAT INTERVIEW WAS A FAKE.

April fools.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think so. Show me proof.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

It's common knowledge.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

It was a MARCH interview. You are just making up BS excuses so you don't look like you were wrong.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes, and March is certainly a long shot away from the first of April. In any case, when you are eventually corrected, you may apologize for being so rude.


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## Sanbi (Jun 7, 2010)

Feats directly disagree though. Hashirama /w Biju and EMS Madara /w Kyubi beat Hiruzen and Minato any day.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Me rude? LOl when I look back at you flaming Lightysnake.

And March does come before April, but this could have been done of the first of March. Until you provide proof, I don't believe you. And good luck getting that apology.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Buji control is not a reflection upon Hashirama's superior power. No no no!

It is merely a reflection on his unique kekkei genkai, not a relfection upon his stamina or anything else like that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Lightysnake was reported numerous times for flamebaiting so I don't know where the moderators are, but that is irrelevant.  

I don't care what you believe, but I've seen the interview before, and I've likewise seen the consensus that it has been confirmed to be a fake. I have nothing to lose by telling you it's fake and nothing to gain. I'm simply telling you as it is.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Post the interview and post the consensus.

You're making a claim. Let's see it.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

And you should be reported for flaming.

And how is it that you cannot provide all of these so called 'numerous consensus"?

I am sorry, but you stating something with no way to support it is no much of a support.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Selim said:


> Guess what the first link is, guys? DUR.
> 
> Thanks for lifting a finger to ease your own "DUR."



You are so stupid. Funny as the first link is totally different from the one that other dude posted...

And also,


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

The third question down on the first link is the one you were ranting about, Hiruzen. It's from a fake interview. Is that relevant enough for you? Or do you think because it's from a different link that *that* link is valid? That's it, right? lol


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

That is a forum. There is no solid proof that that is fake. Just speculation from people on forums.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Where else would a Japanese comic book interview be available to English speaking people other than a fan forum? It was confirmed to be fake. It's the number one hit in google for fake naruto interview.

Anyways, as I said, I don't care. Mention it in the library. There are actually moderators there who will be happy to help.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Honestly Selim, go outside. take a breather. Notice the fresh air, and when you are calm come back on.

Also, its called translating.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Oh, I'm calm, I'm just amazed that you're denying it.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Lol whatever. If you have a problem with me VM or PM me.

Back to topic:


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## Sanbi (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Buji control is not a reflection upon Hashirama's superior power. No no no!


Not the Biju control, but the actual Biju are,



> It is merely a reflection on his unique kekkei genkai, not a relfection upon his stamina or anything else like that.


With Hiruzen's current feats, and powering them up via Prime, and taking Hashirama's feats Edo Tensei or Prime, Hashirama surpasses him. He can literally build a giant forest in seconds, one that can bind the Kyubi, and we see how hard that is in Naruto's mind. Hashirama was tying Prime Madara in taijutsu when he had EMS, and great taijutsu skills. Hashirama has a genjutsu which Hiruzen couldn't even break out of. I don't see how Hiruzen can compare via feats.


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## Big Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Not the Biju control, but the actual Biju are,
> 
> 
> With Hiruzen's current feats, and powering them up via Prime, and taking Hashirama's feats Edo Tensei or Prime, Hashirama surpasses him. He can literally build a giant forest in seconds, one that can bind the Kyubi, and we see how hard that is in Naruto's mind. Hashirama was tying Prime Madara in taijutsu when he had EMS, and great taijutsu skills. Hashirama has a genjutsu which Hiruzen couldn't even break out of. I don't see how Hiruzen can compare via feats.



No they aren't.

How? Hiruzen took down Hashirama and Tobirama in their edo tensei IMMORTAL forms as well as almost beating Orochimaru all in his old age.

Yeah so, we saw how Hiruzen eaisly smashed through the forest. And we all know Naruto is inferior to Kages.

When was he tying with Madara in taijutsu? And thats means nothing granted Hiruzen bested them in taijutsu. 

Hiruzen had no need to break free. He used it as a cover so he could use Shiki Fujin.

I honestly don't see how Hashirama wins in feats. We don't know MAdara's strength either so saying that because HAshirama beat Madara, means absolutly nothing.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Hashirama and Tobirama were stated to be toying with Hiruzen. Hiruzen sacrificed his life to put them down when they were unprepared and weren't even themselves. That hardly shows his superiority.


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## Sanbi (Jun 7, 2010)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> No they aren't.


Difference in opinion I guess.



> How? Hiruzen took down Hashirama and Tobirama in their edo tensei IMMORTAL forms as well as almost beating Orochimaru all in his old age.


Edo Tensei is no where near what they showed in their prime. Plus, as Selim said, they might have been holding back.



> Yeah so, we saw how Hiruzen eaisly smashed through the forest. *And we all know Naruto is inferior to Kages.*


I don't see what relevance that has. he sin't smashing through one being produced by Prime Hashirama, and he isn't going to be able to keep up with Hashirama's Mokuton production rate, he will get overwhelmed eventually.




> When was he tying with Madara in taijutsu? And thats means nothing granted Hiruzen bested them in taijutsu.


During Madara's flashback, it showed them stalemate in taijutsu. Hiruzen in no way bested him in taijutsu.



> Hiruzen had no need to break free. He used it as a cover so he could use Shiki Fujin.


Or he could actually see instead of smell to get those two. Instead he didn't do anything, but instead decided to get beat around and use smell instead of sight.



> I honestly don't see how Hashirama wins in feats. We don't know MAdara's strength either so saying that because HAshirama beat Madara, means absolutly nothing.


We know he has great taijutsu, great katons, possible Futons, all MS abilities and the Kyubi. That alone puts him above Hiruzen.


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## Sasuke Uchiha766 (Jun 7, 2010)

1. Sasuke because of ameratsu and susano'O
2.Pain Nagato because he is awesome with rinnegan 
3. Madara Uchiha because of ameratsu but madara doesn't have susano'O so sasuke better    3 1/2 Minato because he is strong
4. Hidan he is immortal 
5. Deidara because of C1
6.Naruto sage form because of sage art giant rasengan 
7. Itachi because of tsukyomi
8. Kimimaru because of his bones and curse mark 
9. Gaara because of his sand 
10. Suigestu because of his sacrifice real strong thing 
11. Jiraiya and frogs because sage art frog song and sage art boiling fire
12.Danzo because of that one make a sharangan close and something happens
13.Kakashi Hatake
14.Killer Bee
15.Kisame Hoshigaki
16.Konan
17.Sasori in puppet (Hiruko)
18. Sasori (true form)
19.Kazuza
20.Yondaime


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2010)

and we have a winner for worst list of all time ^


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah, it seems like he doesn't even READ the manga, just thinks Sasuke's awesome.


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## Smiley (Jun 7, 2010)

Turrin said:


> and we have a winner for worst list of all time ^


ROFL I laughed alot. Sasuke First? LMFAO


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## Turrin (Jun 7, 2010)

> ROFL I laughed alot. Sasuke First? LMFAO


My favorite is actually Hidan 4#, Kimmimaru 8#, and Suigetsu 10#. Implying Suigetsu and Kimmaru would Rape Stomp Yondaime who is at 20#

The Runner up prize goes to the fact that he actually ranked Hiroku over Sasori's actual body Lolz

Third Prize Goes to Orochimaru, Hashirama, A, and Rikudo not even making the list. God Dam Suigetsu would shit stomp them


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## Sanbi (Jun 7, 2010)

Sasuke Uchiha766 said:


> 1. Sasuke because of ameratsu and susano'O
> 2.Pain Nagato because he is awesome with rinnegan
> 3. Madara Uchiha because of ameratsu but madara doesn't have susano'O so sasuke better    3 1/2 Minato because he is strong
> 4. Hidan he is immortal
> ...


I suggest you redo your list.  Way to many mistakes to count, like Kono over Sasori, Suigetsu Hidan, and Kimi over Danzo, kakashi, Jiraiya, Kirabi and Kisame.


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## Judecious (Jun 7, 2010)

Sasuke Uchiha766 said:


> 1. Sasuke because of ameratsu and susano'O
> 2.Pain Nagato because he is awesome with rinnegan
> 3. Madara Uchiha because of ameratsu but madara doesn't have susano'O so sasuke better    3 1/2 Minato because he is strong
> 4. Hidan he is immortal
> ...



i suggest you read the manga :taichou


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## Smiley (Jun 7, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> I suggest you redo your list.  Way to many mistakes to count, like Kono over Sasori, Suigetsu Hidan, and Kimi over Danzo, kakashi, Jiraiya, Kirabi and Kisame.



Way too many Mistakes? The whole godamn list is a mistake


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## Thunder (Jun 7, 2010)

Sasuke Uchiha766 said:


> 1. Sasuke because of ameratsu and susano'O
> 2.Pain Nagato because he is awesome with rinnegan
> 3. Madara Uchiha because of ameratsu but madara doesn't have susano'O so sasuke better    3 1/2 Minato because he is strong
> 4. Hidan he is immortal
> ...



I'm sorry, but this list is the epitome of failure. The worse one yet.


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## Smiley (Jun 8, 2010)

Lol his first 2 post and already getting bad comments.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2010)

Actually i vote best List in the entire thread; I am so entertained by how many people Suigetsu would Shit Stomp.

Psh Killer Bee and Kisame are only a slight challenges for the mighty Suigetsu

Sasori, Yondaime, and Kazuku Kneel at his feet like the Dogs they are.

Hashirama, Rikudo, A, Mei, Onoki, Tsunade, Orochimaru, and Zetsu are all insects in the face of God Suigetsu.

Only Kimmimaru and Hidan can hope to defeat Suigetsu; He is just so Godly


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Guys, Sasuke *is* awesome...


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## Sanbi (Jun 8, 2010)

Perhaps I was to nice?  Truthfully, that is the worst piece of shit I have seen of a list, Kimi, Suigetsu and Hidan do not belong that high. Garra is high, but not as high compared to the others. Oro and Hashirama aren't even on the list. Kakashi isn't better then Kisame and Kirabi. Hiruko Sasori is not > Sandaime Kazekage. Kono too high, Sasuke isn't the top of the list, Nagato doesn't beat Madara and Minat is too low.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2010)

> Guys, Sasuke is awesome...


Not as Awesome as Suigetsu; Suigetsu is already number 10# w/o a water source. Can you imagine if Suigetsu fought some one near a lake or an ocean. Suigetsu WTFPWN's Sasuke if their is any water source on the field even a puddle or a single rain drop


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## Smiley (Jun 8, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Perhaps I was to nice?  Truthfully, that is the worst piece of shit I have seen of a list



LMFAO. Epic Reaction !


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## Thunder (Jun 8, 2010)

Turrin said:


> Actually i vote best List in the entire thread; I am so entertained by how many people Suigetsu would Shit Stomp.
> 
> Psh Killer Bee and Kisame are only a slight challenges for the mighty Suigetsu
> 
> ...



Turrin is right. This is a good candidate for best list ever. LOL at Suigetsu comments.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

To be fair, I think Suigetsu is underestimate...


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2010)

This actually gave me a good idea for this thread; Some one should go through this massive thread and find the Top 10 Worst Top 10 Lists.

That would be awesome; I wonder if any list in these 103 pages can beat that one out or if their is any contender to throne whatsoever. Please some one do that


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## Thunder (Jun 8, 2010)

Sounds interesting; What does the winner get?


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## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Cookies, one would hope.
Or ramen.


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## Sanbi (Jun 8, 2010)

Whoever does that obviously has no life. 

I'll go do it


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## Thunder (Jun 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Cookies, one would hope.
> Or ramen.



Ramen ftw.


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2010)

Yeah i think Ramen


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Nikushimi just blew my mind. What if Hiruzen gave Itachi the Totsuka and Yata items? That would explain him being the 'god of shinobi.' It's pretty much fanfiction/theory, but that would be awesome, I think.


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## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

What other crackpot theories can we come up with today?


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## Turrin (Jun 8, 2010)

> Nikushimi just blew my mind. What if Hiruzen gave Itachi the Totsuka and Yata items? That would explain him being the 'god of shinobi.' It's pretty much fanfiction/theory, but that would be awesome, I think.


But the manga already pretty heavily implied that Hiruzen was seen as the God of Shinobi because he was able to counter all Ninjutsu in Konoha and possibly use them all. Its no wonder the people of Konoha considered him a God if none of their Ninjutsu could do anything to him.

But yeah i think the Items just came with Itachi's Susano'o


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## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

You're probably right. Plus his summon wouldn't be a weapon any more.


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## Smiley (Jun 8, 2010)

Minato > Hiruzen


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