# Tsukuyomi, Kagutsuchi?which douryoku does Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan wield?



## Dolohov27 (Oct 9, 2011)

Posts moved from , as it was getting a bit off track. -*SaiST*​


sinjin long said:


> well we only know of 5 MS techs,tsukuyomi,amaterasu,susanno,kamui, and shisui's.
> 
> 3 of them have been shown by 2 full blooded uchiha brothers.
> 
> ...


 Sasuke has only shown Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi  and then Susano'o. He never once display Tsukuyomi with his MS.


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## Jυstin (Oct 9, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> Sasuke has only shown Amaterasu, *Kagutsuchi*  and then Susano'o. He never once display Tsukuyomi with his MS.



Wait, Kagutsuchi? *THAT* is the name of Sasuke's Jutsu? As in , Shinto God of Fire? Son of Izanami and Izanagi?

Yeah, Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. All MS Jutsu are named after gods in Japanese Shinto mythology. That's Sasuke's 3rd MS Jutsu.


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## Tir (Oct 10, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Wait, Kagutsuchi? *THAT* is the name of Sasuke's Jutsu? As in , Shinto God of Fire? Son of Izanami and Izanagi?
> 
> Yeah, Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. All MS Jutsu are named after gods in Japanese Shinto mythology. That's Sasuke's 3rd MS Jutsu.



Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi as he used it to Bee and Danzo.


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## Jυstin (Oct 10, 2011)

Tir said:


> Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi as he used it to Bee and Danzo.



No. It wasn't. That's only fans' assumptions, as it was never stated to be Tsukuyomi. Kagutsuchi is something different.


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 10, 2011)

^ But Danzo compared it to Itachi's Tsukyomi...
How else could Sasuke have Susanoo...?!
He needed Tsukyomi and Amaterasu to unlock Susanoo...


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## Jυstin (Oct 10, 2011)

Pathos Grim said:


> ^ But Danzo compared it to Itachi's Tsukyomi...
> How else could Sasuke have Susanoo...?!
> He needed Tsukyomi and Amaterasu to unlock Susanoo...



I don't think you need those two specific Jutsu. There are other MS Jutsu out there, all named after (mostly) Shinto gods. It sounded like it was a 3rd MS Jutsu that awakens with the awakening of the MS user's other two. There might even be different types of 3rd MS Jutsu, like Susano'o.

Anyway, it was compared to it, but comparing two similar things doesn't make them the same. They were compared because they were both Genjutsu, but unlike Tsukuyomi, Sasuke's doesn't alter the perception of time and space itself. That's what makes Tsukuyomi... Tsukuyomi. Sasuke's Jutsu seems to work differently.

MS doesn't have 4 Jutsu as far as I know. Kagutsuchi would be the 3rd, as it follows the tradition of the other MS Jutsu:


Blaze Release: 






(This leads me to believe that translators made a mistake, and that it should be Yasakani's Magatama, or it was just a shortening on the name).

Also .

All of these are names of/items of (usually Shinto) gods in Japanese mythology. Since Kagutsuchi seems to be an MS technique, I have my doubts that Sasuke has more.

Then again, the description of Kamui suggest any MS user can learn it. Possibly, there is no limit to the number of MS Jutsu one can unlock.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Sasuke's doesn't alter the perception of time and space itself. That's what makes Tsukuyomi... Tsukuyomi. Sasuke's Jutsu seems to work differently.



It is known that Itachi was more proficient with Genjutsu than Sasuke due to his rather extreme tactical and strategic tendency.

Just because Itachi was more skilled with Genjutsu and could therefore further develop Tsukiyomi does not mean Sasuke does not have it?

Such as Itachi was never shown to manipulate Amaterasu at the level Sasuke did does also not mean he had another jutsu right?

Or such as Tobi?s S/T jutsu is in my oppinion just a further developed and improved Kamui.

Only because they further enhance an ability or are more skilled with it does not necessarily imply them having different powers.

I think Sasuke just like his brother has Tsukiyomi, he is just not as proficient with it compared to his brother, as Danzo pointed out.

But on the other hand Sasuke is more skilled with Ninjutsu which displays in his use of Amatersu.

Also they are not only blood related they are, brothers.
Why should their MS powers differ if the other two do not?
I strongly doubt that Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi.

On what are you basing this anyway?
There are no clear indicators or evidence that suggets or proves what exactly defines the use of Tsukiyomi.
We just always see what the victim that has been casted with the Genjutsu sees, and actually they see what the caster wants them to see so there is no way of clearly determining what the use of it actually looks like.

I believe that every MS has the potential to awaken Susanoo as an protection mechanism.
If the MS powers in both eyes are awakened it automatically grants Susanoo as well.
And I also think that every MS techniqe is unique to the blood line of the family tree.
But still every power is another ultimate form of Ninjutsu and Genjutsu.

Check on my thread on doujutsu origin theories for more


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## Jυstin (Oct 10, 2011)

> Just because Itachi was more skilled with Genjutsu and could therefore further develop Tsukiyomi does not mean Sasuke does not have it?



It definitely doesn't mean that he does. It just provides reasonable doubt toward him not having it, just as there is reasonable doubt toward him having it. Since Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't act on the same properties described in Tsukuyomi though, it wouldn't be worthy of being called Tsukuyomi anyway. Somewhat like Rasengan vs Cho Oodama Rasengan or Fuuton: Rasenshuriken.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Aazadan said:


> Madara stated it's very rare for someone to awaken Susano.  Despite that, 2 of 4 known MS users (Uchiha) have had Susano.  For it to be rare like Madara claims, very few others would have had it.



There are only 5 known people to have ever posessed Mangekyou Sharingan in both eyes.
At least two of them successfully awakened Susanoo.
The term rare does not fully apply in my oppinion, both in the sense of recency and capability.



Note that Tobi said a *Sharingan *capable of awakening  Susanoo is rare not an *Uchiha *who can is, by that in my oppinion implying that every MS has the potential of awakening Susanoo but the process and full controll is just considered very hard and therefore could be refered to as "rare".

But some japanese fan communities say that the word Madara used could not directly be translated as rare but rather "uncommon or unusual" which partially share the same meaning but leave more headroom for interpretation.




Jυstin said:


> It definitely doesn't mean that he does. It just provides reasonable doubt toward him not having it, just as there is reasonable doubt toward him having it. Since Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't act on the same properties described in Tsukuyomi though, it wouldn't be worthy of being called Tsukuyomi anyway. Somewhat like Rasengan vs Cho Oodama Rasengan or Fuuton: Rasenshuriken.



As I have pointed out earlier, the two times we have been shown the affects and environment of Tsukiyomi was out of the victim?s perspective, hence cannot be considered as an   accurate Tsukiyomi  characteristic indicator or determination since the caster can make the victim see what he wants.

Tsukiyomi is a Genjutsu, how can you possibly distinct between Sasuke?s and Itachi?s version based on the looks of the individual victim?s sight of it?

It was clearly pointed out that Itachi was far more skilled with Genjutsu than Sasuke and that Sasuke was clearly superior to him condiering Ninjutsu.

Danzo specifically stated Sasuke?s version of Tsukiyomi to be a far cry of Itachi?s.

Also they are twin brothers who both have two equal MS techniqes, why should one differ?

It is just too contradictorary to consider Sasuke using another technique.

The at least most logical explanation is just for Sasuke not being talented enough considering Genjutsu in order to properly perform the jutsu the way Itachi did.

But he compensates for it by creating Enton jutsu.



Hasan said:


> Danzo said his _genjutsu_ is inferior to Itachi's.It could imply that Itachi could manipulate time within any genjutsu he uses. _Remember when Sakura and Chiyo were still standing at Naruto's side. Naruto was in genjutsu for quite sometime._
> 
> Being brothers don't necessarily mean they have same sets of skills. C specifically said that his right eye manipulated the black flames. Although, I think it should have been a more credible person like Madara saying that. I doubt C ever saw Itachi in a battle.



*Incorrect.​*




Danzo said:That is nothing compared to * Itachi?s Tsukiyomi.*

That scentence already implys Sasuke having used Tsukiyomi on Danzo, else he would have said Genjutsu and not made a direct comparison with the word Tsukiyomi in the scentence.
The context is clear since he also describes Itachi?s Tsukiyomi always implying Sasuke?s as well in reference, I am not sure where you are missing out.

Also him saying that Itachi could control time and space with *his*
Tsukiyomi again clearly implicates Sasuke posessing and having used it.


Itachi and Sasuke are twin brothers, of course that does not *necessarily * mean the must have the exact same sets of powers, but they just do.
I made a big thread about Sasuke?s MS and it seems that he has developed the same abilities itachi did.

Look at it this way, I am sure there  was a time were Tsukiyomi was even new to Itachi, by then he surely was not able to fully control space and time.
He had to gain more skills and experience before he could properly control it.

It is the same with Sasuke, although Amaterasu grants the user to activate and there for initiate the power right away without any sort of training, there are still ways to improve and enhance it.

People think MS is perfect and you won?t have to do anything anymore
Sasuke just needs to improve his Tsukiyomi further in order to be more proficient with it, he is already handycapped by not being brilliant with Genjutsu as it is but I am sure in time he will gain experience and become better at using it, certainly not on Itachi?s level but at a good rate for sure.

I am not sure why people are forcibly  trying to interpret something as true which is just not.

You don?t have to make everything so complicated

It is plain simple actually, Sasuke is just not as proficient with Tsukiyomi as compared to Itachi and the other way around with Ninjutsu.

When Itachi casted Naruto with a Genjutsu that was done with his ring.
Nowhere was it mentioned or implyed that in that certain case he was manipulating time or space as well, since Naruto was even almost able to release it.

And quite frankly, what sense would it make if Itachi could bend Time/Space in a normal Genjutsu as well?
What purpose would the special ability Tsukiyomi then serve if he could just do it in a normal Genjutsu without even endangering his eyesight?

That is nonsense, as there would  no condition or consequence be tied to his power and therefor be just unfair
Kishi always makes sure that in the Narutoverse characters with great powers always have to absolve a certain condition or endure a particular consequence in order to make them more accessable


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## SaiST (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow, translators in this community went through this many times when that chapter first hit. Not once does Danzou refer to Sasuke's Genjutsu as Tsukuyomi. He calls it just that, a Genjutsu, on the previous page.

And as Justin already pointed out, Tsukuyomi's ability to alter the victim's perception of time is what defines the technique.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> *Incorrect.​*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have posted the chapter of the Manga.
In no Databook have I seen this certain passage to be considered a mistranslation.

Danzo clearly states in both the Manga and the Anime that Tsukiyomi is considered.

Please show me evidence?

*Edit*:
You don?t know that this is the only indicator that determines Tsukiyomi?s ability?
Just as we first did not anticipate Amaterasu being able to be bent and manipulated which was then later done by Sasuke who is highly proficient with Ninjutsu we also have to  consider the possibility that the same thing has been done with Tsukiyomi by Itachi.

I personally think that at the beginning Tsukiyomi?s original power that distincted it from normal Genjutsu was the aspect of having the ability to alter the victim?s perception *to a certain extent.*
As otherwise there would be nothing clearly distincting it and making it more powerful from and than normal Genjutsu, hence would make absolutely no sense.

Itachi being highly proficient with Genjutsu then later on enhanced it to a point in which he could additionally could bend time and space to his will.

I think that adds up, since both are highly skilled with the certain type of jutsu, and both then also would have further developed the jutsu type of their preference.

That would make sense, and also apply to a japanese witer?s mind as everything has to be in balance

Edited above.


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## Hasan (Oct 10, 2011)

*@ Kung Pow*

You could interpret a statement in various ways. How does comparing a genjutsu to Itachi's Tsukuyomi indicates that he used Tsukuyomi? MS has 3 abilities. When Sasuke attacked the summit, C made it clear that Sasuke used his left eye to create black flames (Amaterasu) and right eye to manipulate it's shape. 

Madara also refers to it as genjutsu. He even commented that genjutsu is weak skill. The trick lies in how you use it. He could have used a genjutsu similar to Tsukuyomi.

It's like saying that Kamui is nothing infront of Madara's S/T. They're different techniques but fundamentally they both are S/T. 

For all we know, Danzo simply meant that Itachi was still leagues ahead in terms of abilities.

Plus, _Justin_ made it clear that manipulating the perception of time is a characteristic of Tsukuyomi. It would'nt be Tsukuyomi without it.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Hasan said:


> *@ Kung Pow*
> You could interpret a statement in various ways. How does comparing a genjutsu to Itachi's Tsukuyomi indicates that he used Tsukuyomi?





Danzo states the following:
_
"That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi."_

Danzo was directly comparing Sasuke?s to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi, why else would he construct a context in which he both states Itachi and Tsukiyomi if Sasuke would not have used the techniqe?
It should be more than clear that in this case Danzo was specifically refering to the technique Sasuke had just attacked him with, and since he bends the terminology "Itachi?s Tsukiyomi" into an implication to Sasuke he unmisinterpretably was considering the technique Sasuke had cast on him as Tsukiyomi.

Then Danzo says:

_"Which could control the length of the illusion"_
By specifically refering to the length of Itachi?s Tsukiyomi, Danzo undoubtly references Itachi?s Tsukiyomi to Sasuke?s.
His terminology and the deliberately chosen context is definately a reference to Sasuke?s Tsukiyomi , why else would he use Itachi as direct source of comparision both in power and further affect of the technique?

Try and imagine it like this:

"Mine is by far not as tasty and juicy as the apple you are eating."

I have not stated what I am eating, still it is clear that I was refering to an apple, why else would I have said "*the apple* you are eating" and by that directly referencing and comparing your action to mine.

I used the posessive pronoun "mine " instead of saying "My apple ", still undoubtly implying that I am eating an apple, just not directly doing so, but using the pronoun as subsitution.

The same happened with Sasuke/Danzo:
He says "That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi."
Again using I*tachi?s Tsukiyomi *as object of posession and directing it as clear reference to an comparison of Sasuke?s Tsukiyomi

Get it now?



Hasan said:


> It's like saying that Kamui is nothing infront of Madara's S/T. They're different techniques but fundamentally they both are S/T.



Actually, no.

By now alomst every fan community including me believes that Tobi?s Space Time Jutsu is just a further developed or enhanced form of Kakashi?s Kamui.

You need to stop trying to complicate things.
Here my Quote from above for that matter:


> You don?t know that this is the only indicator that determines Tsukiyomi?s ability?
> Just as we first did not anticipate Amaterasu being able to be bent and manipulated which was then later done by Sasuke who is highly proficient with Ninjutsu we also have to consider the possibility that the same thing has been done with Tsukiyomi by Itachi.
> 
> I personally think that at the beginning Tsukiyomi?s original power that distincted it from normal Genjutsu was the aspect of having the ability to alter the victim?s perception to a certain extent.
> ...





Hasan said:


> Remember that, Itachi is extremely proficient even with a regular genjutsu. For all we know, Danzo simply meant that Itachi was still leagues ahead in terms of abilities.



I do remember as I have pointed out Itachi?s Genjutsu superiority one post above you.
If Danzo would have meant to say that, he would have done so.(lol play of words btw^^)
Since he has not, your statement is redundant.



Hasan said:


> When Sasuke attacked the summit, C* made it clear that Sasuke used his left eye to create black flames (Amaterasu) and right eye to manipulate it's shape. *
> *Again MS comes with 2 techniques. 3 if you're really proficient with it. Sasuke having Tsukuyomi would imply he has 4, which is wrong.*




That?s because he did not know any better
Kumugkure was only beginning to gather intel on Sasuke after he had supposedly captured Bee.
They just were insufficiently informed, and I think he was rather pointing out Sasuke?s MS? power rather than implicating it was his absolute power.


The controlling of the black flames or Enton is Sasuke?s further enhancement of Amaterasu, that does not mean it is an additional unique technique, quite the contrary actually it is just an expansion he releases from the opposite eye Amaterasu is normaly casted from, which basically means nothing at this point.

Thanks for explaining that to me, but *again*, Sasuke?s Enton is not an additonal MS technique of his but rather a result of his experience and natural proficiency with Ninjutsu.

You need to gather a little bit more information before engaging a serious discussion as your arguements at this point seem rather shallow and pedantic to be honest.

*Edit:*



Hasan said:


> Plus, _Justin_ made it clear that manipulating the perception of time is a characteristic of Tsukuyomi. It would'nt be Tsukuyomi without it.



I quoted the answer to that incomplete statement above in my post but I will do it again for you:



> You don?t know that this is the only indicator that determines Tsukiyomi?s ability?
> Just as we first did not anticipate Amaterasu being able to be bent and manipulated which was then later done by Sasuke who is highly proficient with Ninjutsu we also have to consider the possibility that the same thing has been done with Tsukiyomi by Itachi.
> 
> I personally think that at the beginning Tsukiyomi?s original power that distincted it from normal Genjutsu was the aspect of having the ability to alter the victim?s perception to a certain extent.
> ...


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## SaiST (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Please show me evidence?





*Spoiler*: _And my thoughts on Kagutsuchi, and Sasuke's Susano'o_ 





SaiST said:


> kaiyokoon said:
> 
> 
> > Kagutsuchi is a derived technique it is not in the same class as the primary abilities of the Sharingan, it technically falls under the category of advanced nature release and has no impact on Susanoo's development.
> ...


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## Talis (Oct 10, 2011)

Why people believe Sasuke has Tsukuyomi?
Did Sasuke actually ever said  in a chapter ''Tsukuyomi''?


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## SaiST (Oct 10, 2011)

loool3 said:


> Why people believe Sasuke has Tsukuyomi?
> Did Sasuke actually ever said  in a chapter ''Tsukuyomi''?


To be fair, it's not like Itachi always went out of his way to announce the technique either.

In fact, he never has. He, or his opponents, or bystanders have only ever named it when speaking of it either before or after he's cast it. But not even Sasuke has gotten that much.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

I am sorry but that  can hardly be considered as solid evidence.

As far as *we* know, in both the Anime and the Manga Danzo stated what I posted above.

Also has it not been mentioned in neither any Databook nor fan subbers websites , nor professional translating forums that check on both the Manga  and Anime etc etc that a mistranslation in the considered chapter was imminent.

Until the point we are concretely notified that it was a mistranslation we have to go by what the majority seems to consider correct (why do boths of these hands have to be white btw?^^)

Edit:



loool3 said:


> Why people believe Sasuke has Tsukuyomi?
> Did Sasuke actually ever said  in a chapter ''Tsukuyomi''?




Better question:
Does he have to?

When did you ever hear Itachi yelling it out before using it?
Which would actually be a contradiction in itself because the victim is not supposed to know when you are about to cast him with a Genjutsu 

There are just too many facts and evidence pointing towards Sasuke having Tsukiyomi.
Him not having it would just be pure imbalance and Japanese hate that.

I have pretty much mentioned and stated the most impacting evidence that suggests Sasuke has Tsukiyomi in my previous posts.


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## Talis (Oct 10, 2011)

@Saist Itachi mentioned the first time he used it. 
Alltho no idea if he did it also after it but Sasuke never did it.



Kung Pow said:


> I am sorry but that  can hardly be considered as solid evidence.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> ...



Maybe not, but the first time is necessary or people will get confused like now.


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## SaiST (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> I am sorry but that  can hardly be considered as solid evidence.


Not to you, I guess. Sho's an old timer whose word holds a great deal of weight in these types of debates. Other translators that stepped into that particular discussion, and those that immediately followed upon the chapter's release also shared his sentiments.

If I could dig all of them up for you, I would. But this forum's search function does not play nice. I actually had to manually search for a banned user that I knew took part in that thread just to find that post.


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## Talis (Oct 10, 2011)

I think Kishi never revealed Sasukes ''Tsukuyomi'' maybe he was planning smth with it until he had the EMS.
I wont be surprised if Sasuke will have a surpassed version of Kotsa Amatsukami or something with his EMS.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Oct 10, 2011)

References to previous discussions on this topic:""
""​


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## Chibason (Oct 10, 2011)

I believe he has Tsukiyomi, alhough it was formerly incomparable to Itachi's,  and Kagatsuchi is a unique ability he unlocked with his MS...


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## SaiST (Oct 10, 2011)

If it was like that, he wouldn't have declared Susano'o as the third power of his Mangekyou Sharingan, Chiba. It would've been his fourth. 



Doctor Crane said:


> References to previous discussions on this topic:""
> ""​


How'd I miss that second thread? >_>

Hexa's post here sums it up pretty well:



Hexa said:


> I bring this up whenever Danzou's statement comes, but there are two things people get confused about with the line.  First, it's a continuation of Danzou's previous line, despite there being a page in between the two.  Second, the object of the last bit really isn't Sasuke but Sasuke's genjutsu.  From adamkun, Danzou: I'll commend you for (being able to) use a genjutsu on me.
> 
> [A page of Karin talking].
> 
> ...


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## Jυstin (Oct 10, 2011)

> Tsukiyomi is a Genjutsu, how can you possibly distinct between Sasuke?s and Itachi?s version based on the looks of the individual victim?s sight of it?



I'm not using visuals to determine it. Tsukuyomi can _look_ like a normal Genjutsu too, as we've seen vs Sasuke. I'm basing it off of the Jutsu's mechanics, how the Jutsu _works_. If it doesn't work like Tsukuyomi, calling it Tsukuyomi isn't going to make it Tsukuyomi.

As SaiST pointed out, Danzou never referred to it as Tsukuyomi. He pointed out how it was _not_ Tsukuyomi, by pointing out its different mechanics.

If it looks like a Chidori, sounds like a Chidori, and damages like a Chidori, then it's not a Chidori Nagashi, even if you say it could be if it were more concentrated to the hand and not spread over the user's body. It's still a different Jutsu.


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## Klue (Oct 10, 2011)

One can't simply ignore the genjutsu that he uses from his right eye. Furthermore, Kagutsuchi is a secondary ability that is only applied after another Mangekyou technique is used. It allows him to further manipulate Amaterasu.


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## Saru (Oct 10, 2011)

It's Kagatsuchi. Why else would he bother naming it? What Kishimoto was trying to do was make the Mangekyō seem like _more_ than a gateway to these three unique techniques. He was trying to make the Mangekyō seem more illustrious than the Sharingan, and make it *perfectly clear* to the readers that _the Mangekyō_ is the sublime dōjutsu.

I guess he failed in that venture...

Kishimoto was just trying to impress his readers.


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## Appleofeden (Oct 10, 2011)

So u think 1 eye emits Amaterasu and the other provides shape manipulation? Doesn't it make more sense for the eye that cast Amaterasu 2 also b the 1 to control it? Shape manipulation is really a jutsu. MS is said to have a different jutsu in each eye.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 10, 2011)

Sasuke isn't confirmed to have Tsukuyomi...

Kagutsuchi isn't confirmed to be a set eye Dojutsu....

All we know is that he cast genjutsu and controls/shapes enton flames with his right eye....

MS Sasuke only has TWO set MS abilities (Amaterasu/Susano)

His right eye seems to be utilized to enhance other sharingan aspect....


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## Chibason (Oct 10, 2011)

SaiST said:


> If it was like that, he wouldn't have declared Susano'o as the third power of his Mangekyou Sharingan, Chiba. It would've been his fourth.



Tbh I have always maintained that Kagatsuchi was his 3rd MS jutsu and that he didn't possess Tsukiyomi...it's just that there are significsnt inconsistencies that call this into question...Kishi made it kind of complicated, so I'm currently undecided unfortunately....

What I really think is MS gives you Amaterasu in one eye and the second sharingan can enhance an aspect of your powers. For Shisui it strengthened his mind control genjutsu to create Kotoamatsukami; Itachi's genjutsu was also enhanced giving him Tsukiyomi, and Sasuke 's ninjutsu manipulation was perfected giving him Kagatsuchi...

....meh it could go either way


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## Faustus (Oct 10, 2011)

Klue said:


> One can't simply ignore the genjutsu that he uses from his right eye. Furthermore, Kagutsuchi is a secondary ability that is only applied after another Mangekyou technique is used. It allows him to further manipulate Amaterasu.



This. And I won't explain more to the people blinded by their own strange beliefs


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 10, 2011)

Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, so it's Kagutsuchi for sure.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

I will conclude my posts because I don?t wanna disprove every single post stated by Justin,Hasan and Co again
The post was actually about 15000 charackters too long, so I had to conclude it to 2 posts
The rest can be seen on the previous page

The evidence is overwhelming, and the facts undeniable.
Sasuke has Tsukiyomi, please just deal with it until we know more? 



Jυstin said:


> It definitely doesn't mean that he does. It just provides reasonable doubt toward him not having it, just as there is reasonable doubt toward him having it. Since Sasuke's Genjutsu doesn't act on the same properties described in Tsukuyomi though, it wouldn't be worthy of being called Tsukuyomi anyway. Somewhat like Rasengan vs Cho Oodama Rasengan or Fuuton: Rasenshuriken.



As I have pointed out earlier, the two times we have been shown the affects and environment of Tsukiyomi was out of the victim?s perspective, hence cannot be considered as an   accurate Tsukiyomi  characteristic indicator or determination since the caster can make the victim see what he wants.

Tsukiyomi is a Genjutsu, how can you possibly distinct between Sasuke?s and Itachi?s version based on the looks of the individual victim?s sight of it?

It was clearly pointed out that Itachi was far more skilled with Genjutsu than Sasuke and that Sasuke was clearly superior to him condiering Ninjutsu.

Danzo specifically stated Sasuke?s version of Tsukiyomi to be a far cry of Itachi?s.

Also they are twin brothers who both have two equal MS techniqes, why should one differ?

It is just too contradictorary to consider Sasuke using another technique.

The at least most logical explanation is just for Sasuke not being talented enough considering Genjutsu in order to properly perform the jutsu the way Itachi did.

But he compensates for it by creating Enton jutsu.




Hasan said:


> *@ Kung Pow*
> You could interpret a statement in various ways. How does comparing a genjutsu to Itachi's Tsukuyomi indicates that he used Tsukuyomi?





Danzo states the following:
_
"That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi."_

Danzo was directly comparing Sasuke?s to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi, why else would he construct a context in which he both states Itachi and Tsukiyomi if Sasuke would not have used the techniqe?
It should be more than clear that in this case Danzo was specifically refering to the technique Sasuke had just attacked him with, and since he bends the terminology "Itachi?s Tsukiyomi" into an implication to Sasuke he unmisinterpretably was considering the technique Sasuke had cast on him as Tsukiyomi.

Then Danzo says:

_"Which could control the length of the illusion"_
By specifically refering to the length of Itachi?s Tsukiyomi, Danzo undoubtly references Itachi?s Tsukiyomi to Sasuke?s.
His terminology and the deliberately chosen context is definately a reference to Sasuke?s Tsukiyomi , why else would he use Itachi as direct source of comparision both in power and further affect of the technique?

Try and imagine it like this:

"Mine is by far not as tasty and juicy as the apple you are eating."

I have not stated what I am eating, still it is clear that I was refering to an apple, why else would I have said "*the apple* you are eating" and by that directly referencing and comparing your action to mine.

I used the posessive pronoun "mine " instead of saying "My apple ", still undoubtly implying that I am eating an apple, just not directly doing so, but using the pronoun as subsitution.

The same happened with Sasuke/Danzo:
He says "That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi."
Again using I*tachi?s Tsukiyomi *as object of posession and directing it as clear reference to an comparison of Sasuke?s Tsukiyomi

Get it now?



Hasan said:


> It's like saying that Kamui is nothing infront of Madara's S/T. They're different techniques but fundamentally they both are S/T.



Actually, no.

By now alomst every fan community including me believes that Tobi?s Space Time Jutsu is just a further developed or enhanced form of Kakashi?s Kamui.




Hasan said:


> Remember that, Itachi is extremely proficient even with a regular genjutsu. For all we know, Danzo simply meant that Itachi was still leagues ahead in terms of abilities.



I do remember as I have pointed out Itachi?s Genjutsu superiority one post above you.
If Danzo would have meant to say that, he would have done so.(lol play of words btw^^)
Since he has not, your statement is redundant.



Hasan said:


> When Sasuke attacked the summit, C* made it clear that Sasuke used his left eye to create black flames (Amaterasu) and right eye to manipulate it's shape. *
> *Again MS comes with 2 techniques. 3 if you're really proficient with it. Sasuke having Tsukuyomi would imply he has 4, which is wrong.*




That?s because he did not know any better
Kumugkure was only beginning to gather intel on Sasuke after he had supposedly captured Bee.
They just were insufficiently informed, and I think he was rather pointing out Sasuke?s MS? power rather than implicating it was his absolute power.


The controlling of the black flames or Enton is Sasuke?s further enhancement of Amaterasu, that does not mean it is an additional unique technique, quite the contrary actually it is just an expansion he releases from the opposite eye Amaterasu is normaly casted from, which basically means nothing at this point.

Thanks for explaining that to me, but *again*, Sasuke?s Enton is not an additonal MS technique of his but rather a result of his experience and natural proficiency with Ninjutsu.

You need to gather a little bit more information before engaging a serious discussion as your arguements at this point seem rather shallow and pedantic to be honest.

*Edit:*



Hasan said:


> Plus, _Justin_ made it clear that manipulating the perception of time is a characteristic of Tsukuyomi. It would'nt be Tsukuyomi without it.



I quoted the answer to that incomplete statement above in my post but I will do it again for you:



> You don?t know that this is the only indicator that determines Tsukiyomi?s ability?
> Just as we first did not anticipate Amaterasu being able to be bent and manipulated which was then later done by Sasuke who is highly proficient with Ninjutsu we also have to consider the possibility that the same thing has been done with Tsukiyomi by Itachi.
> 
> I personally think that at the beginning Tsukiyomi?s original power that distincted it from normal Genjutsu was the aspect of having the ability to alter the victim?s perception to a certain extent.
> ...


----------



## Yuna (Oct 10, 2011)

Tir said:


> Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi as he used it to Bee and Danzo.


1) Sasuke's "Tsukiyomi" against Bee wasn't Tsukiyomi. If it was, then it doesn't possess any of the abilities of Itachi's Tsukiyomi except for the inverted colours. Even the speech bubbles remain unchanged during Sasuke's "Tsukiyomi" (their colors are inverted during Itachi's).
2) The illusion Sasuke used on Danzou had absolutely nothing in common with Tsukiyomi.

Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi. Against Bee, he could move while using it, time did not stop, it was a binding Genjutsu and not a containing Genjutsu and a non-Uchiha managed to break it. The speech bubbles remained unchanged. Heck, Sasuke's Mangekyou wasn't even active right after it hit for some reason.

The *only* thing it had in common with Itachi's Tsukiyomi was the inverted colours. *Everything* else was different. And if Sasuke possessed Tsukiyomi, why would he bother with fodder Genjutsu against C and Danzou?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 10, 2011)

Wind Master said:


> Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, so it's Kagutsuchi for sure.



I do agree with Sasuke not having Tsukuyomi.... However Kagutsuchi may not necessarily be his second ability either....

As Klue has stated, you cannot ignore that he also cast genjutsu with his right eye as well...

Kagutsuchi seems more like an extension to an Ms ability, then a whole new one.....

If such was truly an MS abilities, wouldn't Kishi have fleshed it out more???? Wouldn't he have made it quite clear that Kagutsuchi is Sasuke't second enton ability??? 

Sasuke in reality doesn't have a second MS ability.... His right eye acts like a duex ex machina as it has only been utilized to bail Sasuke out of situations in which Amaterasu/Susano either was not available or not feasible... 

Against both Raikage and Danzo it was the right sharingan which provided the tool to turn the fight in his favor....


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## Yuna (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> The evidence is overwhelming, and the facts undeniable.


What evidence?



Kung Pow said:


> Danzo specifically stated Sasuke?s version of Tsukiyomi to be a far cry of Itachi?s.


Danzou was ridiculing Sasuke's inferiority to Itachi in Genjutsu proficency. If that was indeed Tsukiyomi, how would Danzou even have known that it was?The colours were not inverted and Sasuke did not cry out "Tsukiyomi".



Kung Pow said:


> Also they are *twin *brothers who both have two equal MS techniqes, why should one differ?


What?



Kung Pow said:


> It is just too contradictorary to consider Sasuke using another technique.


Because you say so?



Kung Pow said:


> The at least most logical explanation is just for Sasuke not being talented enough considering Genjutsu in order to properly perform the jutsu the way Itachi did.


So Sasuke's Tsukiyomi is Tsukiyomi in name only? It literally has zero things in common with Itachi's besides cosmetics.



Kung Pow said:


> Danzo was directly comparing Sasuke?s to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi, why else would he construct a context in which he both states Itachi and Tsukiyomi if Sasuke would not have used the techniqe?


Because he was ridiculing Sasuke? Also, that's a fan translation. If you ask the credible translators, every single one of them will tell you that the original wording in no way implies that what Sasuke used against Danzou was Tsukiyomi.



Kung Pow said:


> It should be more than clear that in this case Danzo was specifically refering to the technique Sasuke had just attacked him with, and since he bends the terminology "Itachi?s Tsukiyomi" into an implication to Sasuke he unmisinterpretably was considering the technique Sasuke had cast on him as Tsukiyomi.


That sentence makes little sense, but you're wrong, anyway.



Kung Pow said:


> By specifically refering to the length of Itachi?s Tsukiyomi, Danzo undoubtly references Itachi?s Tsukiyomi to Sasuke?s.


No, he's merely comparing their Genjutsu proficiency.



Kung Pow said:


> His terminology and the deliberately chosen context is definately a reference to Sasuke?s Tsukiyomi , why else would he use Itachi as direct source of comparision both in power and further affect of the technique?


You're relying on a fan translation. Someone pull out the official Viz translation.



Kung Pow said:


> "Mine is by far not as tasty and juicy as the apple you are eating."


*Except that's not what he said*. Danzou said that the technique that Sasuke had just used on him was far weaker than Itachi's Tsukiyomi. Not once did he actually refer to Sasuke's technique as Tsukiyomi.



Kung Pow said:


> I have not stated what I am eating, still it is clear that I was refering to an apple, why else would I have said "*the apple* you are eating" and by that directly referencing and comparing your action to mine.


No it isn't. It could be anything. It is implied to be an apple, it isn't clear. English must not be your first language.



Kung Pow said:


> I used the posessive pronoun "mine " instead of saying "My apple ", still undoubtly implying that I am eating an apple, just not directly doing so, but using the pronoun as subsitution.


No, you're wrong.



Kung Pow said:


> By now alomst every fan community including me believes that Tobi?s Space Time Jutsu is just a further developed or enhanced form of Kakashi?s Kamui.


And you know this how?



Kung Pow said:


> Thanks for explaining that to me, but *again*, Sasuke?s Enton is not an additonal MS technique of his but rather a result of his experience and natural proficiency with Ninjutsu.


Sasuke has a specific name for his technique, Kagutsuchi, a Japanese deity (of fire). It's a separate MS technique.



Kung Pow said:


> You need to gather a little bit more information before engaging a serious discussion as your arguements at this point seem rather shallow and pedantic to be honest.


Stop using big words improperly in order to appear to be more intelligent than you actually are. It just makes you look all the more foolish to those of us who actually know what those big words mean.



IpHr0z3nI said:


> I do agree with Sasuke not having Tsukuyomi.... However Kagutsuchi may not necessarily be his second ability either....
> 
> As Klue has stated, you cannot ignore that he also cast genjutsu with his right eye as well...
> 
> ...


Sasuke *must* possess two MS Jutsu as the databook states that one must master two MS Jutsu, one for each eye (well, it does if we interpret it a bit because it actually says Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and seemingly only talks about Itachi's MS) in order to unlock Susano'o.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2011)

I think there is probably just a pool of MS techniques inherent in the clan's DNA, and certain Uchiha are naturally predisposed to awakening a particular set/combination of them. Of course, it could also have something to do with the way a person awakens Mangekyou Sharingan itself...


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## Tengu (Oct 10, 2011)

Here Sasuke is using his right eye for Kagutsuchi:

Here, after he showed his 2 powers Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi he uses Susano?:


So that's why i think it is Kagutsuchi.
Maybe Kagutsuchi allows him to manipulate all fire, not just Amaterasu.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> The *only* thing it had in common with Itachi's Tsukiyomi was the inverted colours. *Everything* else was different. And if Sasuke possessed Tsukiyomi, why would he bother with fodder Genjutsu against C and Danzou?



Against C he did not have to exhaust his MS because a mere Sharingan Genjutsu was more than sufficient to successfully incapacitate C as we have seen.

And when he fought Danzo he was so exhausted and out of chakra that using his Tsukiyomi would just have been insanity.
He was at the time actually already using Tsukiyomi in order to make Danzo think his last eye was still opened for his Izanagi.
That is also where Madara also  described his Tsukiyomi to be inferior of Itachi?s but enough to still fool Madara.
I think the exact words were something like "Even a weak Genjutsu can do the trick" or so....still definately refereing to Tsukiyomi.




FallenAngelII said:


> 1) Sasuke's "Tsukiyomi" against Bee wasn't Tsukiyomi. If it was, then it doesn't possess any of the abilities of Itachi's Tsukiyomi except for the inverted colours. Even the speech bubbles remain unchanged during Sasuke's "Tsukiyomi" (their colors are inverted during Itachi's).
> 2) The illusion Sasuke used on Danzou had absolutely nothing in common with Tsukiyomi.



Be clearly stated why Genjutsu no matter the origin or extent of power has no affect on a Jinchuuriki that controls his Bijuu.

*You people need to understand that you cannot know what Tsukiyomi is supposed to look like!*
On the occasions we actually saw Tsukiyomi being used was always out of the *victim?s perspective*, hence we only saw what the victims saw and that was completely influenced by what the caster wanted them to see.

There is no way of suggesting certain indicators of what Tsukiyomi is supposed to look like because, we just cannot know.

*On all of these occasions a Genjutsu has  definately been used and Sasuke both has Manegekyou Sharingan activated and seems to either  hold or exhaust his right eye.
There is absolutely no doubt about Sasuke using Tsukiyomi!*









FallenAngelII said:


> 1)
> 
> Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi. Against Bee, he could move while using it, time did not stop, it was a binding Genjutsu and not a containing Genjutsu and a non-Uchiha managed to break it. The speech bubbles remained unchanged. Heck, Sasuke's Mangekyou wasn't even active right after it hit for some reason.



Bee clearly explained that no mather what origin or extent of power a Genjutsu has, against a Jinchuuriki that can control his Bijuu they are useless against,  because the Bijuu will just wake the host up and by that dispell the Genjutsu.


Sasuke has Tsukiyomi!

I have really contributed an immense amount of facts,evidence and information to this thread.
Check my other posts for further information!

There is just no doubt that he has it.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 10, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> Sasuke has only shown Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi  and then Susano'o. He never once display Tsukuyomi with his MS.


Sasuke used a genjutsu bearing similar traits to Tsukuyomi against Bee, such as pain within the casting eye when said genjutsu is broken, paralysis due to imaginary physical harm, and inverted colors. 





Note that the requirements as stated by the databook for awakening Susanoo, is the awakening of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu beforehand. Susanoo specially requires the representation of the physical world [Amaterasu] and the representation of spiritual world [Tsukuyomi]. Amaterasu is destructive fire said to consume all things and Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu that's incapable of physically killing a person.





			
				ShounenSuki said:
			
		

> The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use~~ "Amaterasu?," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi?," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"~~ Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo". The materialised chakra takes on the form of a war god with a commanding face and powerful physique. His fierce soul will not calm down until he has destroyed all enemies before his eyes...!!





> -Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.










Note that after fighting Bee, and before displaying Kagutsutchi at the summit, Sasuke previously had plans to demonstrate what was likely Susanoo. 





Over all, Sasuke had used 

_Genjutsu_ [Presumably Tsukuyomi]
Amaterasu
_Extinguishing Amaterasu_
_Unnamed manipulation of Amaterasu_
Kagutsutchi [Spikes]

Only two of these things can lead to awakening Susanoo. The first two happened before there was ever a mention of "Kagutsutchi".


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## Hasan (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Danzo states the following:
> _
> "That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi."_
> 
> ...



_SaiST's_ post pretty much explains this.



> Actually, no.
> 
> By now alomst every fan community including me believes that Tobi?s Space Time Jutsu is just a further developed or enhanced form of Kakashi?s Kamui.
> 
> You need to stop trying to complicate things.



I was just giving an example. They both are similar techniques, that's all. I was simply pointing out that even though they both are used differently but at the core, both are S/T jutsus.




> I do remember as I have pointed out Itachi?s Genjutsu superiority one post above you.
> If Danzo would have meant to say that, he would have done so.(lol play of words btw^^)
> Since he has not, your statement is redundant.



Sometimes, it's better to _read between the lines_. As an example, re-read Kakashi vs. Shouten Itachi. He actually meant Tsukuyomi despite he never mentioned it.



> That?s because he did not know any better
> Kumugkure was only beginning to gather intel on Sasuke after he had supposedly captured Bee.
> They just were insufficiently informed, and I think he was rather pointing out Sasuke?s MS? power rather than implicating it was his absolute power.
> 
> ...



It's author's way of implying that a certain character has improved. I do think it should have been a more credible person like Madara instead of C.

C explicitly said that he used his right eye to change the shape of Amaterasu (Enton) followed by his comment that Sasuke is possibly more skilled in Amaterasu than Itachi.

True that it's an enhancement but it doesn't change the fact that he used the other eye to change its shape. It's a separate technique.

It seems a bit odd because C probably never saw Itachi in battle. Like I said, it's the author's way. Similar to how Temari knew of MS and later Rasengan despite the fact that she never saw either of those before.



> You need to gather a little bit more information before engaging a serious discussion as your arguements at this point seem rather shallow and pedantic to be honest.



_Justin_ and others posted well before I posted. It'd be redundant if I wrote what they wrote. There are many topics such as these, you should read those too.


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## Yuna (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Against C he did not have to exhaust his MS because a mere Sharingan Genjutsu was more than sufficient to successfully incapacitate C as we have seen.


A was breathing down his neck and he was potentially facing the entire Kage Summit, yet he went for a generic Genjutsu?



Kung Pow said:


> And when he fought Danzo he was so exhausted and out of chakra that using his Tsukiyomi would just have been insanity.


No he wasn't. Zetsu had just restored his Chakra.



Kung Pow said:


> He was at the time actually already using Tsukiyomi in order to make Danzo think his last eye was still opened for his Izanagi.


Since when does Tsukiyomi alter one's perception of reality in real-time? It creates a pocket dimension.



Kung Pow said:


> That is also where Madara also  described his Tsukiyomi to be inferior of Itachi?s but enough to still fool Madara.
> I think the exact words were something like "Even a weak Genjutsu can do the trick" or so....still definately refereing to Tsukiyomi.


No, be quiet.



Kung Pow said:


> Be clearly stated why Genjutsu no matter the origin or extent of power has no affect on a Jinchuuriki that controls his Bijuu.


Tsukiyomi creates a pocket dimension that freezes time. 48 hours pass in an instant. Hachibi wouldn't have the time to break Bee out. Itachi also explicitly stated that only an Uchiha can break Tsukiyomi.



Kung Pow said:


> *You people need to understand that you cannot know what Tsukiyomi is supposed to look like!*
> On the occasions we actually saw Tsukiyomi being used was always out of the *victim?s perspective*, hence we only saw what the victims saw and that was completely influenced by what the caster wanted them to see.


Yet when we saw it out of Danzou's perspective, it looked nothing like the other times.



Kung Pow said:


> There is no way of suggesting certain indicators of what Tsukiyomi is supposed to look like because, we just cannot know.


Because you say so?



Kung Pow said:


> *On all of these occasions a Genjutsu has  definately been used and Sasuke both has Manegekyou Sharingan activated and seems to either  hold or exhaust his right eye.
> There is absolutely no doubt about Sasuke using Tsukiyomi!*


So the Mangekyou Sharingan cannot cast any Genjutsu besides Tsukiyomi?



Kung Pow said:


> I have really contributed an immense amount of facts,evidence and information to this thread.
> Check my other posts for further information!


No you haven't. You even ignored several of my arguments. Have fun declaring yourself the winner of this argument despite everyone else disagreeing with you and reducing your arguments to rubble.


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> What evidence?
> 
> 
> Danzou was ridiculing Sasuke's inferiority to Itachi in Genjutsu proficency. If that was indeed Tsukiyomi, how would Danzou even have known that it was?The colours were not inverted and Sasuke did not cry out "Tsukiyomi".
> ...




You obviously understood nothing.

You didn?t get the apple example and you did not understand half you were commenting on.

To me it makes no sense to further interact with you as you just seem to constantly and  completely misunderstand what has been stated by me.

Please reread the post and respond, if the next response appears to be of value I will react.

But just to further explain to you the apple example you evidentally did not comprehend:

If I say

"Mine, is by far not as tasty and juicy as the apple you are eating".

That context and semantic clearly indicates me eating an apple due to the indirect reference substituded by the terminology "the apple you are eating".

You accuse others of trying to appear smart but do not even comprehend an oversimplified example that has been established because you did not understand the original subject either.

Take your own advice please


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## Yuna (Oct 10, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> You obviously understood nothing.
> 
> You didn?t get the apple example and you did not understand half you were commenting on.


Yes I did. It was *wrong*. That's not how the English language works. Ask any English teacher.



Kung Pow said:


> "Mine, is by far not as tasty and juicy as the apple you are eating".
> 
> That context and semantic *clearly indicates* me eating an apple due to the indirect reference substituded by the terminology "the apple you are eating".


Except that's not that Danzou said. Also, credible translators all agree on that what Danzou said was actually: "The Genjutsu you used is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi", which is actually not the same as "You Tsukiyomi is nothing compared to Itachi's".



Kung Pow said:


> You accuse others of trying to appear smart but do not even comprehend an oversimplified example that has been established because you did not understand the original subject either.


I understood perfectly what was being said. What *I* argued was that you were wrong in your claim that according to the English language, your sentence clearly indicates what "Mine" means. Also, I noted that that wasn't what Danzou actually said.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> A was breathing down his neck and he was potentially facing the entire Kage Summit, yet he went for a generic Genjutsu?
> 
> 
> No he wasn't. Zetsu had just restored his Chakra.
> ...



Seeing your second quote of this kind, you nitpick the subjects you can implement your foolish logic and infantile natured posting into.

Please do not embarres and ridicule yourself further.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 10, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Sasuke *must* possess two MS Jutsu as the databook states that one must master two MS Jutsu, one for each eye (well, it does if we interpret it a bit because it actually says Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and seemingly only talks about Itachi's MS) in order to unlock Susano'o.



Yes from a literal sense yes he has to have a second ability... However what it is unknown to the reader..... So from the perspective of the reader, he has only TWO CONFIRMED MS techniques... His right doesn't have just one distinct usage... it has been utilized to cast genjutsu and control Amaterasu...

The fact that we are still debating on if he has Tsukuyomi is proof of such..... I think the issue of Sasuke's second MS ability will be settled with EMS... If he successfully cast Tsukuyomi, without having access to any other aspects of Itachi's MS(totsuka sword etc. etc.) it would imply that indeed he already had Tsukuyomi..... If he does not and Kishi continues to expand on Kagutuchi it would confirm that indeed that was his second MS ability....

Either that or a 4th databook....


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## posternojutsu (Oct 10, 2011)

I think it would be better to say that Sasuke and Itachi may share the same base jutsu within their MS. We see that both Itachi and Sasuke can use Amaterasu but only Sasuke can utilize Enton. Tsukiyomi could be the same with the exception that we do not know the what the name of the base genjutsu is...the one that Sasuke used against Bee. Not saying this is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt but i don't think it is much of a stretch. This would still mean Sasuke technically does not have Tsukiyomi but his power is still directly related to Itachi's (hence Danzo's comparison to Itachi's Tsukiyomi)


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> *snip of overwhelming facts indicating Sasuke having Tsukiyomi*



Due to the information,facts,evidence and logical implications both you and I have contributed here it is just undeniable that Sasuke does indeed have Tsukiyomi.

Please Fallen Angel, Justin and Hasan, your base of arguements is insufficient compared to the overwhelming data that has been posted and proven the contrary.

It is 100% certain that Sasuke does indeed have Tsukiyomi.

/thread


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## Googleplex (Oct 10, 2011)

The Mangekyou Sharingna provides _all_ Mangekyou Sharingan users Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and, if they master the aforesaid jutsu, Susano'o.

Sasuke's right eye contains Tsukuyomi; he used it against Killer Bee and there is no difference with his and Itachi's skill with Tsukuyomi- Sasuke needed to _master_ Tsukuyomi to meet one of the conditions to awaken Susano'o.

Sasuke merely _*created*_ Kagutsuchi seeing as he has the ability to spatially recompose Amaterasu, aka Enton. 
In the same way the databook suggested Kakashi created Kamui by training his chakra over and over.

Shisui even showed that Kotoamatsukami was his own creation, likely is, seeing as that jutsu is referred to as his own jutsu whilst Tsukuyomi is always described like its something belonging to the Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## DanE (Oct 10, 2011)

Ive been in arguements about Sasuke's Tsukyomi, I want join this one but Im on my Ipod now.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 10, 2011)

Sasuke just has some generic, unnamed Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu. Who knows if it's really Tsukuyomi or not. It could be, it also could not be. Better wait for the next fight in which Sasuke uses it, though by then he'd also most likely have access to the real Tsukuyomi anyway, since he's taken Itachi's eyes now.


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## Karman (Oct 10, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Yasaka's Magatama
> 
> (This leads me to believe that translators made a mistake, and that it should be Yasakani's Magatama, or it was just a shortening on the name).



Yasaka's Magatama isn't douyorku, it's a treasure held by Itachi's Susanoo alongside the Yata Mirror and Totsuka. The manga heavily implies that someone could find these treasures as Orochimaru had been searching most of his life for signs of them, but Itachi had possessed them all along.

So basically:
Susanoo is douyorku like Gamabunta is a summon
but
Magatama isn't douyorku because Toad Oil Flame Bullets aren't a summon.

Make sense?


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Wind Master said:


> Sasuke just has some generic, unnamed Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu. Who knows if it's really Tsukuyomi or not. It could be, it also could not be. Better wait for the next fight in which Sasuke uses it, though by then he'd also most likely have access to the real Tsukuyomi anyway, since he's taken Itachi's eyes now.



I think what we can *all* argee on is that Sasuke?s second MS techniqe is indeed a Genjutsu.

I personall do very much believe that it is Tsukiyomi but regarding that matter everybody is entitled to their own oppinion until we have more evidence, I am absolutely OK with that.

But to those that after the overwhelming posts of a couple of us still insist on Sasuke?s 2nd MS technique to be Enton, need to reread the manga and information that has been post all over this thread that not only suggests but demans differently.

Sasuke has just further developed his use of Amaterasu and calls it Enton release originating from his right eye.

The same could be the case with Itachi, who might have further developed Tsukiyomi by being able to additionally bend time and space, and then releasing the further enhanced technique from his right eye even though his normal Tsukiyomi would originate in his left.
But that is only a theory of mine


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## Klue (Oct 10, 2011)

Karman said:


> Yasaka's Magatama isn't douyorku, it's a treasure held by Itachi's Susanoo alongside the Yata Mirror and Totsuka. The manga heavily implies that someone could find these treasures as Orochimaru had been searching most of his life for signs of them, but Itachi had possessed them all along.
> 
> So basically:
> Susanoo is douyorku like Gamabunta is a summon
> ...



Orochimaru didn't find it because he hadn't realized that one needed the Mangekyou Sharingan to use it.

That's beyond obvious.

It's not as if Sasuke randomly found another shield and a bow-n-arrow and stuffed them in his eyes.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

The Totsga Notsurugi was actually not as first believed a spiritual weapon.
It was just like the rest of the snake swords of physical form.

Itachi just found a way to somehow synch it with his Susanoo as their is a link between this particular sword and the Uchiha.

Orochimaru just did not realize that was possible.


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## BlinkST (Oct 10, 2011)

There is no evidence of that. The weapons are all spiritual and have no physical form in sense of something like a tree, because they are chakra-based, hence no one could have "found" them in the first place.







Note that Susanoo's databook entry made it nigh-painfully clear that the weapons are traits of the jutsu, not outside additions. Susanoo can do unbelievable shit because Susanoo can do unbelievable shit. It never, ever, says that the weapons were "added". Something that bears a sword and shield is described in a _universal_ fashion. 


> [Original post]
> 
> Susanoo? (須佐能乎)
> Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Defensive, All ranges
> ...


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

I think by now we had concluded that just because a character says something does not mean it is true.

Only because Zetsu says it does not have a physical form does not mean anything really.

The more interesting question is rather why Orochimaru who has searched for it half his life did not mention it to be without physical form then?

Do you really think a genius like Oro extremely attached and fixiated to his life span would just search half his life for something without physical form, hence implying him not having sufficient information about it?

I strongly doubt it.

And regarding Susanoo, yes there is no doubt about it and I think this subject has been cleared and concluded with your last post


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## BlinkST (Oct 10, 2011)

The databook is ultimately what supports the statement, as it's the most information ever given about the jutsu and came out after that chapter. It does not say that Susanoo's are outside additions.

The idea of distortion can easily explain why Orochimaru and Zetsu knew of the weapons, yet couldn't even recognize what was happening before their eyes.


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## Googleplex (Oct 10, 2011)

I'd like someone (from the anti-Sasuke has Tsukuyomi side) to give me a reason as to why we should doubt the databook and manga implications that Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Itachi's Susano'o (that I call the 'generic Susano'o) *aren't* the regular trinity that come with the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Furthermore how would said jutsu be famous if Itachi was its sole user?

Lastly, why should I believe that there's all these elaborate explanations as to why Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi over the explanation that he does with the former has virtually little to no evidence to support it whilst the latter seems to have towering evidence to support it?


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> I'd like someone (from the anti-Sasuke has Tsukuyomi side) to give me a reason as to why we should doubt the databook and manga implications that Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Itachi's Susano'o (that I call the 'generic Susano'o) *aren't* the regular trinity that come with the Mangekyou Sharingan.


Actually at the current point that can neither be proven or disproven.
But we can make assumptions and theories based on facts.
It is a fact that there have only been 6 shinobi to have ever awakened  the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Two of them being Sasuke and Itachi which both show three techniques, the ultimate Ninjutsu, the ultimate Genjutsu and the ultimate defense.

Now if we consider Kakashi substituting for Obito, his left eye?s power seems to produce a Space time jutsu, hence already negating the statement of all Sharingan having the same techniques.
Also Tobi/Madara seems to tend to Space/Time techniques that is of course only assuming they are affiliated with MS.

I personally think that every Sharingan family tree  that inherits the certain and rare  genetic DNA strain of the elder son which contains the line of hatred and therefor the ability of MS, are granted the potential of awakening the Mangekyou Sharingan with unique powers to them or certain powers out of a selective pool.
Since there are only a few to awaken it I think the inheritance of the gene is very rare.

But still basically giving every MS user an ultimate Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Defense.
If the Ninjutsu may now be Amaterasu or Space/Time or others is completely random in my oppinion.

Also for the varieties of powers they either all have unique powers or obtain a certain power due to a random selection out of a genetic pool of options for example either Tsuki,Ama & Susanoo or Kamui, unkown, unkown etc etc ultimately having 5 or less options of technique sets an eye could obtain, that would add variety and diversity to each power


> Furthermore how would said jutsu be famous if Itachi was its sole user?


Only people that were living in Itachi?s time laps praised the jutsu, so we can conclude from that they all refered to Itachi.


> Lastly, why should I believe that there's all these elaborate explanations as to why Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi over the explanation that he does with the former has virtually little to no evidence to support it whilst the latter seems to have towering evidence to support it?


You shouldn?t because those  explanations are mostly incomplete and not logical.

I hope that helped


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## Wizard (Oct 10, 2011)

Tir said:


> Sasuke does have Tsukuyomi as he used it to Bee and Danzo.



that is a pretty weak tsukiyomi then my friend


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## Kung Pow (Oct 10, 2011)

harrypottersama said:


> that is a pretty weak tsukiyomi then my friend


Yes it is, since Sasuke wasn?t  very skilled with Genjutsu as it is he still needed time to develop it and train.

But as we all know he decided to further develop Amaterasu and Susanoo and left Tsukiyomi out since he just did not have the same extent of ability with it compared to Itachi, and I think Sasuke knew that well.


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## Jυstin (Oct 10, 2011)

Karman said:


> Yasaka's Magatama isn't douyorku, it's a treasure held by Itachi's Susanoo alongside the Yata Mirror and Totsuka. The manga heavily implies that someone could find these treasures as Orochimaru had been searching most of his life for signs of them, but Itachi had possessed them all along.
> 
> So basically:
> Susanoo is douyorku like Gamabunta is a summon
> ...



I don't think calling it Yasakani's Magatama would change anything about it 



_The most important magatama is the Yasakani no Magatama (八尺瓊曲玉, also 八坂瓊曲玉), which is part of the Imperial Regalia of Japan, added some time around the Heian period. The Yasakani no Magatama stands for benevolence, and is one of the three items_ *[including Totsuka no Tsurgi and Yata's Mirror]* _and  used in the ceremony of imperial ascension. In Japanese mythology, the jewels, along with the mirror_ *[Yata's Mirror]*_, were hung on the tree outside of Amaterasu's cave (where she had hidden) to lure her out. It is believed to be a necklace composed of jade magatama stones instead of a solitary gem as depicted in popular culture. It is believed to be enshrined in Tokyo, in the Japanese Imperial Palace."_

Yasakani's Magatama is the original name of the item, along with Totsuka no Tsurgi and Yata's Mirror. Yasakani's Magatama is a treasure along with the other two. This is where Itachi's Susano'o attack comes from. The attack uses 3 magatama (magatama as shown on the page linked). Yasakani's Magatama is the most important magatama, part of Shinto mythology. It makes sense that Kishi would use these magatama. But I'm just confused why it's called "Yasaka's Magatama" rather than "Yasakani's Magatama". It's what it's derived from, as the other MS Jutsu are. Only this one had the name slightly changed.

It could be like the case of Kakashi's Kamui, which is more often called Kamuy, though it's the same thing.



> I'd like someone (from the anti-Sasuke has Tsukuyomi side) to give me a reason as to why we should doubt the databook and manga implications that Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Itachi's Susano'o (that I call the 'generic Susano'o) aren't the regular trinity that come with the Mangekyou Sharingan.



Because the manga never implicated it. Danzou compared Sasuke's Genjutsu to the power of Itachi's Tsukuyomi, explaining that both have different mechanics, and said they are as different as earth and sky.

Also why would Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o be the "regular trinity" Jutsu of the Mangekyou Sharingan? It sounds more like you have a case of "main character syndrome". In the case of Mangekyou Sharingan, Itachi is the main guy. Since he's the main MS guy and he has these 3 Jutsu, it's assumed all MS have the same Jutsu, but as we've seen, other Jutsu like Madara's, Kamui, Koto Amatsukami, and Kagatsuchi exist. Sasuke, having already used Amaterasu with his left eye and Kagatsuchi with his right, declared his 3rd MS Jutsu as Susano'o.

More than it is implied that the default is Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, which it's not, it's implied that each eyes gets a Jutsu, while a 3rd MS Jutsu (probably only Susnao'o) is awakened when both eyes are. Each of Sasuke's eyes already displayed their kami-named MS power.



> Furthermore how would said jutsu be famous if Itachi was its sole user?



Because Itachi's not a hermit? He's vastly known, as we saw when he entered Konoha the first time. Danzou knew about Itachi's Tsukuyomi, and after using it on Kakashi, news would likely spread. We saw him spread it to Naruto, Sakura, and Chiyo. We're not to assume these are the only ones who would have found out.

And you're not implying Sasuke made those Jutsu famous, are you? If not, this point has no connection to proving Sasuke has it just because it's famous. We know it wasn't by Sasuke's doing. Other MS users could have Tsukuyomi, just as Itachi and Sasuke share Amaterasu (while having different Susano'o). This doesn't mean that they share all 3. It's probably possible for one user to have both Kamui and Amaterasu, or Kamui and Tsukuyomi, or any combination of 2 MS Jutsu.



> Lastly, why should I believe that there's all these elaborate explanations as to why Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi over the explanation that he does with the former has virtually little to no evidence to support it whilst the latter seems to have towering evidence to support it?



You've got that backwards. There is no evidence to support it. The appearance of the Genjutsu doesn't mean it's Tsukuyomi. We've seen some Genjutsu appear to look like Tsukuyomi's part 1 look, and we've seen that Tsukuyomi can look like normal Genjutsu as well.

It can't be Danzou's statement. We've already dispelled that thought. Or rather, Hexa did:



Hexa said:


> I bring this up whenever Danzou's statement comes, but there are two things people get confused about with the line.  First, it's a continuation of Danzou's previous line, despite there being a page in between the two.  Second, the object of the last bit really isn't Sasuke but Sasuke's genjutsu.  From adamkun, Danzou: I'll commend you for (being able to) use a genjutsu on me.
> 
> [A page of Karin talking].
> 
> ...



This is, in no way shape or form, saying that Sasuke's Genjutsu is Tsukuyomi.

The ONLY argument that exists that it IS Tsukuyomi, is that Sasuke had his MS activated when he used the Genjutsu, but there was no intense focus or veining in the eyes when he used it, as is ALWAYS shown with MS Jutsu (aside from part 1, understandably). I was never under the impression that the Mangekyou Sharingan lost the powers of the normal Sharingan. It should be able to track movement, memorize movements and seals, cast Genjutsu, etc.. This isn't to say that he used Tsukuyomi. If he did, it's the weakest Tsukuyomi I've ever seen. The mechanics are completely different, and those are what make Tsukuyomi... Tsukuyomi.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2011)

Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, as far as we've seen; the Genjutsu he used against B was never confirmed to be it, and absolutely _*NOTHING*_ Danzou or Madara said points to the Genjutsu he used on Danzou being it either. In fact, what Madara said contradicts that notion; he described it as "a weak Genjutsu", which Tsukuyomi is not. All Danzou said was that Sasuke's Genjutsu paled compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, but nothing about that implies Sasuke has it too.

Also, I see some debate over the spiritual items wielded by Susano'o. I will, again, point out that absolutely _*NOTHING*_ says they are a part of Susano'o; given Zetsu's testimony and Orochimaru's desire to obtain the Totsuka for probably longer than Itachi was even alive, it seems more strongly supported that the weapons are simply equipments for the Jutsu.


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## BlinkST (Oct 10, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> Because the manga never implicated it.


Uh, yes it did.



Jυstin said:


> Sasuke, having already used Amaterasu with his left eye and Kagatsuchi with his right, declared his 3rd MS Jutsu as Susano'o.


You neglect to mention the fact that before he even used Kagutsutchi, he well, used the genjutsu and Amaterasu. 







Awakening Tsukuyomi after that would be in line with what Itachi already told him before and what the databook went on to say. 



Jυstin said:


> You've got that backwards. There is no evidence to support it. The appearance of the Genjutsu doesn't mean it's Tsukuyomi. We've seen some Genjutsu appear to look like Tsukuyomi's part 1 look, and we've seen that Tsukuyomi can look like normal Genjutsu as well.


The idea that it's Tsukuyomi has four things going for it: 

*1]* Unique color
*2]* Instant mental fatigue after jutsu is cast
*3]* Paralysis/ Knockout
*4]* Significant pain in the casting eye if broken

All of those traits suggest that they are they same, more than they are not.  



Jυstin said:


> but there was no intense focus or veining in the eyes when he used it, as is ALWAYS shown with MS Jutsu (aside from part 1, understandably).


That's not really necessary, and I don't even know how you can look and deduce that there's no "instense focus". What in the world are you talking about with that? 














Jυstin said:


> If he did, it's the weakest Tsukuyomi I've ever seen.


I think that's the point. It's like how both Naruto and Jiraiya have Sage mode, and Naruto's is superior, but Jiraiya has frog fusion to extend maintain the duration of the jutsu. Itachi on the other hand got superior control over Tsukuyomi.

Tsukuyomi just seems to be an inherently "weak" genjutsu.


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## cloudsymph (Oct 10, 2011)

*@kung pow*

sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi, nor has it ever stated that he does in the manga (i should know considering i know japanese and when i read it in japanese there was no indication that it says that sasuke uses tsukuyomi (referring to danzou talking about it).  he considers sasuke's genjutsu as nothing compared to itachi's tsukuyomi.

also as justin stated on the first page, sasuke's genjutsu doesn't provide similar properties to that of what tsukuyomi is described as.

of course i'm not ruling out that he could have it.  atm it points to him not having it.  if lets say the next time that we see him using a genjutsu, and he yells tsukuyomi or it says that it is (in the manga or data book), then he has it.  but as of this point in time he doesn't.

but i will say that using genjutsu with MS + mental fatigue makes it seem like it's tsukuyomi, but my interpretation of that the MS is boosting the strength of it and thus resulting in mental fatigue.  panel coloration also adds to the argument that it is tsukuyomi though.  but i'm sticking with it not being tsukuyomi until it's proven to be.


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## Saru (Oct 10, 2011)

> That's not really necessary, and I don't even know how you can look and deduce that there's no "instense focus". What in the world are you talking about with that?



I understand exactly what he's talking about. It's the eye strain that both Sasuke and Itachi have shown when using the Mangekyou Sharingan (in Part II). He may have clutched his eye, but he surely wasn't as in as much pain as when he used Kagatsuchi or Amaterasu, at which point his eye begins to bleed...


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## BlinkST (Oct 10, 2011)

Eye strain is more associated with Amaterasu. Tsukuyomi hasn't displayed any eye strain.



The only time it did, was when the illusion was _*broken*_.


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## DanE (Oct 10, 2011)

Sasuke has Tsukyomi

Here it is:

washed up? 

washed up?

No its not Shackling Stakes, come on both Leafninja and Narutopedia agree he has Tsukyomi we just need the databook to confirm it.


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## Kaname Kuran (Oct 10, 2011)

I'm pretty sure Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is not his second MS ability isn't it just Amaterasu with shape manipulation?

If it is that's a half assed MS ability imo.


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## Klue (Oct 10, 2011)

Kawaii said:


> I'm pretty sure Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is not his second MS ability isn't it just Amaterasu with shape manipulation?
> 
> If it is that's a half assed MS ability imo.



Indeed.

It's an ability he can only utilize (from his right eye) after calling upon Amaterasu (from his left). It's clearly a secondary ability. 

The guy showcased an illusion only from his right to start, before unlocking Amaterasu in his left and Susanoo from both.


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## Jυstin (Oct 10, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Uh, yes it did.



No really. It didn't.



> You neglect to mention the fact that before he even used Kagutsutchi, he well, used the genjutsu and Amaterasu.



THIS is the flaw with this logic.

He used a GENJUTSU. It was NOT said to be TSUKUYOMI. It was JUST a GENJUTSU. Even Danzou compared it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi and told us how they were NOT the same.



> Awakening Tsukuyomi after that would be in line with what Itachi already told him before and what the databook went on to say.



I don't remember him saying that he would specifically awaken Tsukuyomi, or that those Jutsu were needed to awaken _specifically_ for Susano'o to awaken, nor do I remember the recent databook recalling any such implications.



> The idea that it's Tsukuyomi has four things going for it:
> 
> *1]* Unique color
> *2]* Instant mental fatigue after jutsu is cast
> ...



No. The color has nothing to do with it. People thought that the Genjutsu Itachi used on Kakashi's clone was Tsukuyomi because "it looked like it", while at the same time, the Tsukuyomi Itachi used on Sasuke looked like any normal Genjutsu. You CANNOT judge by appearance.

This too me does not show enormous levels of mental strain, fatigue, or significant pain. Sasuke shows the same amount of "strain" after using an obviously normal Genjutsu. That level of "strain" seems to be apparent whenever Sasuke uses any powerful Genjutsu. It doesn't have to be Tsukuyomi.



> That's not really necessary, and I don't even know how you can look and deduce that there's no "instense focus". What in the world are you talking about with that?



It's easy. None of the scans you've provided have depicted the intense focus that the MS eyes have been shown with when using the Jutsu. No veins reaching for the irises to show them being strained in use.

Itachi using Tsukuyomi
Itachi using Amaterasu [2] [3] [4] 
Sasuke using Amaterasu [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]
Sasuke using Amaterasu [2]
Sasuke using Kagutsuchi [2]
Sasuke using Amaterasu
"Itachi" using Amaterasu
Itachi using Amaterasu [2]
This one is harder to tell with the size and black sclera, but it says "Amaterasu" right there.

THAT is focus. THAT is strain. THAT is an MS Jutsu being used.



>



First of all, there is no reason that having the MS active would inhibit the use of normal Genjutsu. Second, even Danzou and Madara called it "a far cry from Itachi's Tsukuyomi" or "as different from it as heaven and earth", implicating that it is NOT Tsukuyomi. It doesn't act the same way. It's not capable of the same functions.

Even IN GENERAL, Madara was saying _"Even weak little Genjutsu (meaning NORMAL GENJUTSU) with no staying power... can be mighty based on how it's used."_

That right there screams that it is NOT Tsukuyomi, and that it was just a normal "weak little Genjutsu".

I took the arguments of the panels showing Sasuke's "use of Tsukuyomi" and the strain of it, and compared it to the use of the other MS Jutsu, the pain from those Jutsu that Sasuke has faced, and compared Sasuke's "Tsukuyomi pain" more logically.





> I think that's the point. It's like how both Naruto and Jiraiya have Sage mode, and Naruto's is superior, but Jiraiya has frog fusion to extend maintain the duration of the jutsu. Itachi on the other hand got superior control over Tsukuyomi.



Tsukuyomi is not a "mode" though. It is a technique that allows the user to do things that Sasuke's Genjutsu did not do. By mechanics, that does not make it Tsukuyomi.



> Tsukuyomi just seems to be an inherently "weak" genjutsu.



THIS contradicts the databook you've been trying to use to backup your argument. Tsukyomi is an inherently powerful Genjutsu. Said to be the most powerful Genjutsu, or among them. This is about the Jutsu itself. It was not said "Tsukyomi has the potential to be a powerful Genjutsu if the user is good". No. The Jutsu itself is powerful. It allows the user to do things that Sasuke did not do with his Genjutsu.

It is not Tsukuyomi, and don't ever use that to state that Tsukuyomi is the opposite of what the manga and databook have directly said it was - powerful.



			
				Kawaii said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is not his second MS ability isn't it just Amaterasu with shape manipulation?
> 
> If it is that's a half assed MS ability imo.



It's actually shown to be very useful. If anything, his Genjutsu being Tsukuyomi is a half assed MS ability, and that's not IMO.

He used Kagutsuchi with his right eye, while casting Amaterasu with his left. It's a separate technique, and it's named after a Shinto god, as is tradition with all other MS Jutsu. When he uses it, the veins in his eyes intensify, as also shown with the use of MS.

And apparently it is his second MS ability. Susano'o is the 3rd.

Had he also had Tsukuyomi, it would be his 4th. He only has 3.



> DanE]No its not Shackling Stakes, come on both Leafninja and Narutopedia agree he has Tsukyomi we just need the databook to confirm it.



Stopped reading at Leafninja and Narutopedia. It's to be taken with a grain of salt, since it has no more authority on this than any other fan.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Jυstin said:


> He used a GENJUTSU. It was NOT said to be TSUKUYOMI.


It doesn't need to be explictly "said" to be Tsukuyomi. For example, Itachi undoublty used Tskuyomi on Sasuke.

Susano'o is the 3rd

Are you about to say he didn't use it, because the name wasn't mentioned and all we have is the inverted color? Also, how could Zetsu know for sure what genjutsu Itachi was using? 



Jυstin said:


> It was JUST a GENJUTSU. Even Danzou compared it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi and told us how they were NOT the same.


He said one one was better, not necessarily that they weren't the same, and really, he has no way of knowing Sasuke's skill with a technique. He's not psychic. 



Jυstin said:


> nor do I remember the recent databook recalling any such implications.


Entry in question literally states Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are the only paths to Susanoo:



> The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use~~ "Amaterasu?," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi?," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"~~ Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo".



It doesn't say well, oh if your right eye has Kamui, and your left has Amaterasu, you can use Susanoo, which is basically what you're saying. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are announced specifically as the only requirements and nothing else is given. 



Jυstin said:


> No. The color has nothing to do with it. People thought that the Genjutsu Itachi used on Kakashi's clone was Tsukuyomi because "it looked like it"


These "people" of yours were wrong. 

Susano'o is the 3rd

Not even close. 



Jυstin said:


> This too me does not show enormous levels of mental strain, fatigue, or significant pain.


No, of course it does not depict "enormous" amounts of mental strain and fatigue because uh, _*Bee broke the genjutsu*_. 



Jυstin said:


> Sasuke shows the same amount of "strain" after using an obviously normal


That's irrelevent since it came from the wrong eye, and the color was different etc.



Jυstin said:


> That level of "strain" seems to be apparent _*whenever*_ Sasuke uses any powerful Genjutsu.


That's cherry-picking. 



Jυstin said:


> It's easy. None of the scans you've provided have depicted the intense focus that the MS eyes have been shown with when using the Jutsu.


The "veining" argument is a pretty inconsisent one, and doesn't prove anything since it's well, from part 1. Kishimoto reserved the veins for particularly for Amaterasu/ black fire after part 1. There is no established "strain" for Tsukuyomi or Susanoo.

after using an obviously normal
 



Jυstin said:


> It's not capable of the same functions.


Besides knocking people out and/ paralysing them from mental stress.

after using an obviously normal
after using an obviously normal

Completely and utterly different. 



Jυstin said:


> That right there screams that it is NOT Tsukuyomi, and that it was just a normal "weak little Genjutsu".


A "normal" "weak" genjutsu where there is continual emphasis on the right eye and inverted panels. I dont think so. 



Jυstin said:


> THIS contradicts the databook you've been trying to use to backup your argument. Tsukyomi is an inherently powerful Genjutsu.


There's no evidence that Tsukuyomi is inherently powerful, but rather, that it is inherently weak. What makes it powerful, is the ability to alter the victim's perception of time, which in turn makes it's imaginary torture more lethal, the more the victim can experience it. For example, a Tsukuyomi used on Sasuke left him relatively unharmed and able to retaliate:

after using an obviously normal

A Tsukuyomi a few years down the road, sustained for 24/72 hours, knocked out Sasuke [And Kakashi] cold. 

after using an obviously normal
after using an obviously normal

Itachi was basically at the same level Sasuke was when he began. Tsukuyomi, is inherently "weak". Really, it's no different from saying that Kamui is inherently "weak". As time goes on, the user gains greater control over the respective jutsu.  



Jυstin said:


> He used Kagutsuchi with his right eye, while casting Amaterasu with his left.


Kagutsutchi was probably something Sasuke literally made up right there on the spot. Being that he can shape flames into whatever he wants, he can porbably choose to name the result of that manipulation, whatever he wants. For the spikes, he went with "Kagutsutchi", but that's it. It's not like the other 3 jutsu.


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## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Hexa said:


> I bring this up whenever Danzou's statement comes, but there are two things people get confused about with the line.  First, it's a continuation of Danzou's previous line, despite there being a page in between the two.  Second, the object of the last bit really isn't Sasuke but Sasuke's genjutsu.  From adamkun, Danzou: I'll commend you for (being able to) use a genjutsu on me.
> 
> [A page of Karin talking].
> 
> ...



I think this post sums up this matter nicely.



Blinx-182 said:


> Entry in question literally states Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are the only paths to Susanoo:
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't say well, oh if your right eye has Kamui, and your left has Amaterasu, you can use Susanoo, which is basically what you're saying. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are announced specifically as the only requirements and nothing else is given.



Wrong. Sasuke said only those with Mangekyou in both eyes are able to unlock Susanoo. Tsukuyomi/Amaterasu aren't specific jutsus.


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## Trent (Oct 11, 2011)

Kawaii said:


> I'm pretty sure Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is not his second MS ability isn't it just Amaterasu with shape manipulation?
> 
> If it is that's a half assed MS ability imo.



That's actually quite haxxed when you think about it. 

On top of his usual arsenal, Sasuke basically becomes Gaara but with fucking solid Amaterasu flames instead of just sand.


----------



## Csdabest (Oct 11, 2011)

EMS. Probably gives the User potential to use all MS jutsu. It seems they all relate and build up upon how the user trains. Making it possible to use all the jutsu


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## Klue (Oct 11, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> EMS. Probably gives the User potential to use all MS jutsu. It seems they all relate and build up upon how the user trains. Making it possible to use all the jutsu



Does that fit inline with what Itachi said?

EMS restores the light of the eyes, and provides a new doujutsu/douryoku. Sounds like a new technique(s) is born, probably something that all EMS users share.

Itachi spoke as if it were something specific.


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## Milliardo (Oct 11, 2011)

Trent said:


> That's actually quite haxxed when you think about it.
> 
> On top of his usual arsenal, Sasuke basically becomes Gaara but with fucking solid Amaterasu flames instead of just sand.



only he doesn't have gaara's chakra level.. 

 i don't think that is the second ms jutsu. all it really is a variant of amaterasu truthfully.. he probably has a weaker version of tsukiyomi considering genjutsu wasn't something he was greatly talented in.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

The new EMS technique granted is also very interesting to me actually.
I am wondering what Sasuke will develop.

I would presume though that it is some extension, of the abilities he already has.


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## Trent (Oct 11, 2011)

Colt said:


> *only he doesn't have gaara's chakra level.. *
> 
> I don't think that is the second ms jutsu. all it really is a variant of amaterasu truthfully.. he probably has a weaker version of tsukiyomi considering genjutsu wasn't something he was greatly talented in.



He definitely does when it comes to his bloodline jutsus.

The more of the inherited power from the Older Son he unlocks with his sharingan evolving to a higher state, the more ludicrous amount of spiritual energy he can use (as shown by the easy MS spamming).

I do think that the MS jutsus Sasuke named, corresponding to each of his MS, the awakening of which he confirmed allowed him to unlock his _3rd_ MS jutsu Susanoo, are indeed his 2 MS jutsus.

And the difference of the MS jutsus having allowed the unlocking of Susanoo would be a good explanation for their visual difference and, more importantly, the difference of their arsenal.

Itachi having Tsukiyomi gave him a weapon with a genjutsu-related ability, Sasuke having Kagutsuchi gave him a weapon with an Enton/Amaterasu-related ability.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Trent said:


> He definitely does when it comes to his bloodline jutsus.
> 
> The more of the inherited power from the Older Son he unlocks with his sharingan evolving to a higher state, the more ludicrous amount of spiritual energy he can use (as shown by the easy MS spamming).
> 
> ...



I have the explanation for that actually.


----------



## Trent (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> But to those that still insist, even though overwhelming evidence has been presented,* that Sasuke is not even using a Genjutsu,* need to settle immediately!
> 
> To those that say the use of Tsukiyomi is not confirmed yet, I accept such a statment.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone is arguing that Sasuke hasn't been using genjutsu _at all_, we all saw him do so. 

The argument is that the MS genjutsu isn't the very specific Tsukiyomi or not. That Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu does not mean that all MS genjutsus are Tsukiyomi. 

Aside the other MS "special" genjutsu introduced since, Kotoamatsukami, it is evident that having the MS activated does not remove _any _of the sharingan's basic abilities, genjutsu casting _included_. 

Any known sharingan genjutsus will still be castable with MS and it's understandable that the souped-up MS version could have (purely) visual style update as seen with Sasuke's MS version of Kasegui/Demonic Shackles used against Bee which  still worked *exactly *like the 3 tomoe version aside the Hawk style update fitting to MS "Hawk" Sasuke, a genjustu mechanic that Tsukiyomi *CANNOT REPRODUCE in real time*, _outside _the illusion.

The mechanism of Tsukiyomi has been clearly detailed and genjutsu using a different mechanism cannot* by definition*, be Tsukiyomi.

But yes, this debate has been done many times and won't be settled until the next DB, or Sasuke _actually _confirming he has Tsukiyomi. 
Him mentioning its name _*for the first time* _ would be a good start.

Oh, and Danzou's statement cannot be explained in a more clear manner than in Hexa's post so really, there shouldn't have been much debating over that particular piece of evidence after it was posted.


Hexa said:


> I bring this up whenever Danzou's statement comes, but there are two things people get confused about with the line.  First, it's a continuation of Danzou's previous line, despite there being a page in between the two.  Second, the object of the last bit really isn't Sasuke but Sasuke's genjutsu.  From adamkun, Danzou: I'll commend you for (being able to) use a genjutsu on me.
> [A page of Karin talking].
> However, [SUBJECT MARKER] and Itachi's "Tsukuyomi" that can freely manipulate genjutsu time are as different as heaven and earth.​Or,
> Danzou: [The genjutsu you used on me] and Itachi's "Tsukuyomi" that can freely manipulate genjutsu time are as different as heaven and earth.​He's directly comparing the two genjutsu.



Danzou's point is precisely that Sasuke lacking in his genjutsu arsenal the weapon that is Tsukiyomi is what still puts Itachi in a different league and he specifies _why_: the unique ability of manipulating time (_*within *_the illusion) that _defines _Tsukiyomi.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

cloudsymph said:


> *@kung pow*
> 
> sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi, nor has it ever stated that he does in the manga (i should know considering i know japanese and when i read it in japanese there was no indication that it says that sasuke uses tsukuyomi (referring to danzou talking about it).  he considers sasuke's genjutsu as nothing compared to itachi's tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



_
Everbody is entitled to their own oppinion as long as it is based on knowledge, reason or logic, hence if you would like to believe that Sasuke is not using Tsukiyomi that is your decision and I have no problem with that.

*But to those that still insist, even though overwhelming evidence has been presented, that Sasuke is not even using a Genjutsu, need to settle immediately!*

To those that say the use of Tsukiyomi is not confirmed yet, I accept such a statment.

*But for Sasuke to be using a Genjutsu, is out of the question, undoubtfully correct.*

Now from this point we can start to argue in reference to the evidence and facts that have been presented wheter or not Sasuke is using Tsukiyomi.

Here are the 4 posts of mine, in which I have contributed my share of the facts that in my oppinion unmisinterpretably demand Sasuke to have Tsukiyomi.
The "mistranslation" statement of Danzo saying Genjutsu instead of Tsukiyomi was neither confirmed by any Databook nor Kishi himself, hence is irrelevant until somebody does so.

*1.)
2.)
3.)
4.)*

The rest has been settled by Blinx-182.

So in conclusion, to me and many others there is no doubt that Sasuke is using Tsukiyomi, but for those that consider the presented evidence insufficient and would like to wait for a Databook or Kishi himself to confirm it, I have absolutely no problem with

Of course we cannot *know *that he does, but we just strongly believe due to the at this point provided information that Sasuke is indeed using it.
_

Also here is my MS Sharingan theory response to GooglePlex again, I think it was a little overposted



> Googleplex said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like someone (from the anti-Sasuke has Tsukuyomi side) to give me a reason as to why we should doubt the databook and manga implications that Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Itachi's Susano'o (that I call the 'generic Susano'o) *aren't* the regular trinity that come with the Mangekyou Sharingan.
> ...


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Is this thread now settled?


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## Trent (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Is this thread now settled?



I'd say so since most of your arguments have repeatedly been shot down.

To sum up:
1/ Danzou never mentioned Sasuke having Tsukiyomi.
2/ Sasuke himself never mentioned having Tsukiyomi.
3/ Sasuke never mentioned even _needing _Tsukiyomi to unlock Susanoo.
4/ Sasuke did not show any genjutsu working in the well known and *very specific *manner Tsukiyomi works.
5/ Sasuke actually named a jutsu for each of his MS.

Yup, this does sound settled alright to me.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Trent said:


> I'd say so since most of your arguments have repeatedly been shot down.
> 
> To sum up:
> 1/ Danzou never mentioned Sasuke having Tsukiyomi.
> ...




1.) Read my previous post in which that matter is explained.
2.) Itachi never did either.
3.) No, the Databook did that for him.
4.) There is *no *well known *manner * of how Tsukiyomi works, because you neither  know what it actually is supposed to look like and what the exact abilities of it are,since we only have data from the victim?s perspective and people who have seen or experienced it.
That does in no way imply what it is actually looking like, or what exact abilities Itachi had with it at the beginning and after being more proficient and experienced.
I don?t know many time I will have to explain that 
5.)Yes, he recogniced his proficiency with Amatersu, and gave his further enhancement of the technique a name.

None of my arguements have been shut down, as a matter of fact I don?t believe you read half of them.
You have the chance to gather some information out of my 4 posts mentioned in the post above you.

Are you one of the people that claim Sasuke doesn?t even use a MS Genjutsu?
You certainly appear as  one of those people that try to belittle and degrade the oppinion and contributions of others in order to elevate theirs.
It is really frustrating to see that a discussion cannot be conducted without constant infantile behavior

Half of your statements really did not make any sense.
Please read here in order to actually see what I said and concluded


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## Odlam (Oct 11, 2011)

He's got Kagatsuchi in one eye, Amataseru in another, and Susanoo of course with the combination.

Reread the Raikage fight, "C" I think his name was specifically says Sasuke has the Enton manipulating power in one eye, and Amataseru in the other eye.

Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi. Danzou spelled it out for the reader that Sasuke did not possess it. Mangekyo is a stronger sharingan, and Sasuke will use it to augment his base genjutsus, but he has no MS specific genjutsus. Those are fairly easy to spot as Kishi names them after Gods and mythical dieties.


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## Trent (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> 1.) Read my previous post in which that matter is explained.
> 2.) Itachi never did either.
> 3.) No, the Databook did that for him.
> 4.) There is *no *well known *manner * of how Tsukiyomi works, because you neither  know what it actually is supposed to look like and what the exact abilities of it are,since we only have data from the victim?s perspective and people who have seen or experienced it.
> ...


1) You were already explained why your interpretation of Danzou's words was incorrect. See Hexa's quote and the numerous post in this thread doing so.
2) He did.  
3) It sure did for Itachi. Sasuke himself stated in the manga how he unlocked Susanoo. Unlike with Itachi, Tsukiyomi wasn't mentioned.
4)It has been explained in the manga and the data book.  
5) The God of Fire's name, mind you, fitting for the MS jutsu of his right eye and continuing Kishi's theme naming of the different MS jutsus, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Susanoo, Kotoamatsukami …and Kagutsuchi.



Kung Pow said:


> None of my arguments have been shut down, as a matter of fact I don?t believe you read half of them.
> You have the chance to gather some information out of my 4 posts mentioned in the post above you.


I went through the *whole thread *and saw the same things repeated a few times, despite the points already having been contested. Case in point with your argument regarding Danzou's speech which was shot down by Hexa's crystal clear post a few _pages _ago and subconsequent posts. 

You visibly seem to think your point still stands, I and several other posters of this thread, do not believe it to be the case. 



Kung Pow said:


> Are you one of the people that claim Sasuke doesn?t even use a MS Genjutsu?



Now who isn't reading people's posts. 


*Spoiler*: __ 






Trent said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing that Sasuke hasn't been using genjutsu _at all_, we all saw him do so.
> 
> The argument is that the MS genjutsu isn't the very specific Tsukiyomi or not. That Tsukiyomi is an MS genjutsu does not mean that all MS genjutsus are Tsukiyomi.
> 
> ...






Sasuke has access to all his genjutsu arsenal can still use them (logically with higher power) with his MS.



Kung Pow said:


> You certainly appear as  one of those people that try to belittle and degrade the oppinion and contributions of others in order to elevate yours.
> It is really frustrating to see that a discussion cannot be conducted without constant infantile behavior



I'm doing no such thing. The smiley of my previous post indicated I was being humorous with my statement. My opinion on how definite we can be on the subject had been stated previously (and quoted above) anyway. 

Apologies if you feel like I'm trying to antagonize you, I am not.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 11, 2011)

Odlam said:


> He's got Kagatsuchi in one eye, Amataseru in another, and Susanoo of course with the combination.


Wouldn't your assessment be as much of a speculation as the precedent number of arguments.....

He also cast genjutsu out of the right eye.... which cannot be omitted...

Kagatsuchi hasn't been confirmed to be an official MS tech......... or even an MS tech......

Kagatsuchi could be just the name of that specific usage of Enton.....

Such as chidori/Raikari is a specific name for a Raiton technique....





> Reread the Raikage fight, "C" I think his name was specifically says Sasuke has the Enton manipulating power in one eye, and Amataseru in the other eye.


As he has genjutsu in right eye as well...

Your assessment has been addressed......



> *Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi.* Danzou spelled it out for the reader that Sasuke did not possess it. Mangekyo is a stronger sharingan, and Sasuke will use it to augment his base genjutsus, but he has no MS specific genjutsus. Those are fairly easy to spot as Kishi names them after Gods and mythical dieties.



I agree................ However one cannot 100% rule out based on him not being confirmed to have utilized it yet.... There is sufficient evidence to argue both sides.... And from what I have read; both sides seem to sport good arguments....

He has no confirmed MS specific genjutsu........

However to simply dubbed it as base genjutsu may not be accurate.... Some of his MS genjutsu feats have not been replicated by any basic sharingan genjutsu that we've seen on panel..... And if such was merely basic sharingan genjutsu, why would he emphasize it being casted out of one eye???  

Much of this argument comes down to assumption..... As genjutsu has been the least consisted ninja art in the manga......

Even Tsukuyomi only distinguishes itself from other genjutsu by virtue of altering the perception of S/T(which is why I do not think Sasuke has utilized Tsukuyomi)...... Even it's ability to incapacitate it's victim isn't unique anymore.... As does Koto Amat(I hate that name)..... which only disquisition itself by performer in a manner in which the victim is unable to detect it.....

Also the naming after deity is strictly a correlation argument..... Correlations are not proofs...... Kishi must confirm Kagutsuchi is an MS tech, as he did the others......

As of now I will stick to my original argument Sasuke only has two CONFIRMED Ms tech.... His right eye is has been strictly utilized as a Duex ex Machine.........


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## Aegon Targaryen (Oct 11, 2011)

Of course Kagutsuchi is a Mangekyo Sharingan technique.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Odlam said:


> He's got Kagatsuchi in one eye, Amataseru in another, and Susanoo of course with the combination.
> 
> Reread the Raikage fight, "C" I think his name was specifically says Sasuke has the Enton manipulating power in one eye, and Amataseru in the other eye.
> 
> Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi. Danzou spelled it out for the reader that Sasuke did not possess it. Mangekyo is a stronger sharingan, and Sasuke will use it to augment his base genjutsus, but he has no MS specific genjutsus. Those are fairly easy to spot as Kishi names them after Gods and mythical dieties.



C didn?t know any better.
As you probably noticed, he phrased it in a question, implying that he was telling it so himself and had no idea about what he was saying.
That is because Kumogakure had only begun to gather intel about sasuke after he had "captured" bee and it was the first time C had ever seen the Mangekyou Sharingan in action.

For the last time.
Enton is just a further enhanced Amatersu, it is not a unique techniqe.
Sasuke has Amatersu, a Genjutsu (Tsukiyomi in my oppinion) and Susanoo as MS techniques.



Trent said:


> 1) You were already explained why your interpretation of Danzou's words was incorrect. See Hexa's quote and the numerous post in this thread doing so.
> 2) He did.
> 3) It sure did for Itachi. Sasuke himself stated in the manga how he unlocked Susanoo. Unlike with Itachi, Tsukiyomi wasn't mentioned.
> 4)It has been explained in the manga and the data book.
> ...



The only contravercial arguement in my p?sts is the Danzo mistranslation.
Again I don?t care about anybody saying it was a mistranslation as long as *the Databook or Kishi do not confirm it.*
Everything else has to be considered irrelevant.

I won?t bother to again explain the points that you obviously refuse to understand, which is why I will concentrate on the ones you still seem to be lecturable on.

To 3.)The Databook stated that in order for Susanoo to be awakened one must have Amatersu and Tsukiyomi, period.
Provide proof with your statements, don?t just spew unconfirmed phrases.

To 4.)Omg you really have to start to acknowledge *logic *more than your own oppinion!
Tsukiyomi is a Genjutsu.
The currently known abilities Itachi had with it were that he could bend space and time within a Tsukiyomi.
Nothing more nothing less.
You cannot possibly make implications on what Tsukiyomi has to look like since you firstly only have seen it out of the victim?s perspective and secondly the caster can make th victim see *whatever *he wants.
The statement of Sasuke?s Genjutsu not looking like Itachi?s is just ridiculous, because nobody can know what it looks like or what characteristica determine its use or cast other than Itachi beign able to bend time and space.
*Please comprehend this time!*

To 5.) Why are you again trying to create an implication that Enton is more than just Sasuke?s further enhanced Amaterasu?
Enton being released from his right eye means absolutely nothing at this point because we have insufficient information about it.
*Just as you don?t know if Itachi might have only after becoming more experienced with his "Tsukiyomi" been able to bend space and only from that point on have actually called the further enhanced technique after the new name "Tsukiyomi" just as Sasuke with Enton, as it could have originally before he became more proficient with it have been called differently and been manifested from the other eye.
We don?t know if the one time we actually saw the effects of Tsukiyomi wasn?t Itachi using the further enhanced techniqe manifesting it from the different eye and just calling it Tsukiyomi as the original tech could be named differently, such as with Sasuke?s Enton and Amaterasu.

Enton is just Sasuke?s further developed Amatersu as he has gained more experience with it and therefore has become more proficient considering the use of it and to rap it up he gave it a name.
It is not a unique MS ability of his, just a further enhancement.
Nothing more and nothing less.

You desperately need to start making reasonable and logical assumptions, instead of trying to force your oppinion and ways onto others.

The thing we can know for certain is that we just don?t know enough at this point!


Anything else can be found here:

1.)
2.)
3.)
4.)
5.)
*


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

The Databook is useless here because it only describes Itachi's Susano'o. Note that it says Susano'o comes with the sword of Totsuka, but Sasuke's Susano'o does _not_ have the sword of Totsuka; instead, Sasuke has a ball of Enton from which he can draw blades or arrows.

Sasuke's Susano'o is significantly different from Itachi's and so was awakened in a different way, by Sasuke obtaining Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> The Databook is useless here because it only describes Itachi's Susano'o. Note that it says Susano'o comes with the sword of Totsuka, but Sasuke's Susano'o does _not_ have the sword of Totsuka; instead, Sasuke has a ball of Enton from which he can draw blades or arrows.
> 
> Sasuke's Susano'o is significantly different from Itachi's and so was awakened in a different way, by Sasuke obtaining Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.



Sasuke?s Susanoo is different from Itachi?s because it was multiple times stated that his cold chakra and personality reflects in his Susanoo, therefor resulting it to have a cold color, cruel and rather horrifying appearance.

As opposed to Itachi, who was a pacifist and had only good intentions in his heart.

If you read the Databook, which I conclude from seeing you quote it, you certainly noticed that it states *Itachi?s* Susanoo to have Totska No Tsurugi, nothing else.
Due to your statement we would have to imply that every single Susanoo gets the Totska, which is certainly not the case^^.

Sasuke did not equip his Susanoo with any spiritual weapons like Iticha did, hence is why his Susanoo only has a basic/primary  weapon out of it?s own arsenal, due to being a God of War.

What you refer to Enton, is actualy just a depiction of Kishi for us to further imply what has already been stated in the Databook, in fact that Susanoo is a result of both Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, in the case you are refering to considering Amaterasu of course.

The ball is just a semi medium in which Sasuke?s Susanoo hosts the weapon as kind of resevoir in order to quickly be able to manifest it when needed.


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Sasuke?s Susanoo is different from Itachi?s because it was multiple times stated that his cold chakra and personality reflects in his Susanoo, therefor resulting it to have a cold color, cruel and rather horrifying appearance.


Nice baseless speculation there. That might explain the demonic feel and appearance, but the weaponry is very different. Sasuke wouldn't get a bow instead of a sword and shield just because Sasuke is angsty. The weaponry won't change even after Naruto saves Sasuke with his love.


> If you read the Databook, which I conclude from seeing you quote it, you certainly noticed that it states *Itachi?s* Susanoo to have Totska No Tsurugi, nothing else.
> Due to your statement we would have to imply that every single Susanoo gets the Totska, which is certainly not the case^^.


Wrong. The only reference to Itachi in the Databook's Susano'o entry is "User: Uchiha Itachi". 


> Sasuke did not equip his Susanoo with any spiritual weapons like Iticha did, hence is why his Susanoo only has a basic/primary  weapon out of it?s own arsenal, due to being a God of War.


Speculation. Sasuke's bow is likely to be a legendary item as well, namely the bow of the sun goddess Amaterasu. For some unknown reason, the Uchiha brothers naturally have access to these legendary spiritual items.


> What you refer to Enton, is actualy just a depiction of Kishi for us to further imply what has already been stated in the Databook, in fact that Susanoo is a result of both Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, in the case you are refering to considering Amaterasu of course.
> 
> The ball is just a semi medium in which Sasuke?s Susanoo hosts the weapon as kind of resevoir in order to quickly be able to manifest it when needed.



The ball is Sasuke's equivalent to the sake jar. It is a ball of black flame because Sasuke's base jutsu are Amaterasu and Enton: Kagutsuchi instead of Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi like Itachi. Sasuke's Susano'o thus has weapons made from black flame in its complete condition.


----------



## Trent (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> To 4.)Omg you really have to start to acknowledge *logic *more than your own oppinion!
> Tsukiyomi is a Genjutsu.
> The currently known abilities Itachi had with it were that he could bend space and time within a Tsukiyomi.
> Nothing more nothing less.
> ...


Why on earth are you talking about how it "_looks_"? I'm talking about how it _*works*_. 

Tsukiyomi was explained and shown to have *no duration outside the illusion within which the caster controls all, time and space included. *It is instantaneous in real time for anyone else as shown when used on Kakashi and from Zetsu's reaction during the Uchiha fight.

Tsukiyomi CANNOT be used as a binding jutsu because *by definition *a binding jutsu has a duration in real time whereas Tsukiyomi does _not_. 

It basically is a mental blow to the mind which level and nature of damage is decided by what the caster chose to inflict his victim in the illusion world he created and for how long he tortured the target _*within *_that illusion.

It might take a couple minutes to read but the link I gave you in the previous post explains this clearly and shows what the Data Book, which you do seem to find as a credible source, actually says about the jutsu.


Kung Pow said:


> To 5.) Why are you again trying to create an implication that Enton is more than just Sasuke?s further enhanced Amaterasu?
> Enton being released from his right eye means absolutely nothing at this point because we have insufficient information about it.


Because that's the only jutsu used by Sasuke's right MS Kishi judged important enough to name and be called out when used?

Right before Sasuke explained he unlocked Susanoo when awakening both his MS. 

It's a strong _hint_. (Note I'm not saying "_proof_")


Kung Pow said:


> Just as you don?t know if Itachi might have only after becoming more experienced with his "Tsukiyomi" been able to bend space and only from that point on have actually called the further enhanced technique after the new name "Tsukiyomi" just as Sasuke with Enton, as it could have originally before he became more proficient with it have been called differently and been manifested from the other eye.
> We don?t know if the one time we actually saw the effects of Tsukiyomi wasn?t Itachi using the further enhanced techniqe manifesting it from the different eye and just calling it Tsukiyomi as the original tech could be named differently, such as with Sasuke?s Enton and Amaterasu.
> 
> Enton is *just* Sasuke?s further developed Amatersu as he has gained more experience with it and therefore has become more proficient considering the use of it and to rap it up he gave it a name.
> ...


Let's consider your (possible) theory for a moment.

-Sasuke starts from Amaterasu and develops it further, adding certain characteristics to the initial jutsu, and the resulting jutsu is named after another Shinto god, Kagutsuchi.

-Itachi would have started from Tsukiyomi and developped it further, adding the time manipulation ability (which makes that genjutsu in a different league as per Danzou's words) … and the resulting jutsu _still _is called Tsukiyomi? 

Not only this doesn't add up, it also implies that the "initial" Tsukiyomi, before Itachi added the time manipulation ability, is _no different in nature and effect to your regular sharingan genjutsu._


Kung Pow said:


> You desperately need to start making reasonable and logical *assumptions*, instead of trying to force your oppinion and ways onto others.
> _
> *The thing we can know for certain is that we just don?t know enough at this point! *_


And I already said I agreed with that:


Trent said:


> But yes, this debate has been done many times and won't be settled until the next DB, or Sasuke _actually _confirming he has Tsukiyomi.
> Him mentioning its name _*for the first time* _ would be a good start.





Kung Pow said:


> Anything else can be found here:
> 
> 1.)
> 2.)
> ...


I've read the thread already, thank you very much.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Sasuke?s Susanoo is different from Itachi?s because it was multiple times stated that his cold chakra and personality reflects in his Susanoo, therefor resulting it to have a cold color, cruel and rather horrifying appearance.
> 
> As opposed to Itachi, who was a pacifist and had only good intentions in his heart.



Of course, it's reflected in Susanoo. No one said otherwise.



> If you read the Databook, which I conclude from seeing you quote it, you certainly noticed that it states *Itachi?s* Susanoo to have Totska No Tsurugi, nothing else.
> Due to your statement we would have to imply that every single Susanoo gets the Totska, which is certainly not the case^^.
> 
> Sasuke did not equip his Susanoo with any spiritual weapons like Iticha did, hence is why his Susanoo only has a basic/primary  weapon out of it?s own arsenal, due to being a God of War.





No Itachi isn't mentioned but it certainly speaks Itachi's Susano'o because Databook was only updated up to that point. Hence Marsala's remark about it being useless is true.



> What you refer to Enton, is actualy just a depiction of Kishi for us to further imply what has already been stated in the Databook, in fact that Susanoo is a result of both Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, in the case you are refering to considering Amaterasu of course.
> 
> The ball is just a semi medium in which Sasuke?s Susanoo hosts the weapon as kind of resevoir in order to quickly be able to manifest it when needed.



Databook speaks of Itachi's Susano'o and not Sasuke's. Sasuke clearly stated that _MS in both eyes_ is the requirement for Susano'o without referring to any specific jutsus.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Hasan said:


> No Itachi isn't mentioned but it certainly speaks Itachi's Susano'o because Databook was only updated up to that point. Hence Marsala's remark about it being useless is true.


It's referring to every Susanoo in general, not a specific "Susanoo", as it literally states that anyone can gain that power, not unique to a specific person.



> [picture of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan]
> →↓As the strongest doujutsu, only *they* can reach it who have taken the "Mangekyou Sharingan," *feared by those around it*, to its extremes. A godly state. Its the user's guardian deity, but at the same time, it consumes the user's life.
> [picture of Itachi surrounded by Susanoo]
> 
> ...




The description is never, ever, specific to one person, but multiple people, and plainly states Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, the substantial and ethereal representations of the two worlds, respectively, will lead to Susanoo.


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> It's referring to every Susanoo in general, not a specific "Susanoo", as it literally states that anyone can gain that power, not unique to a specific person.




Then it also says that every Susano'o in general has Totsuka, which is wrong.





> The description is never, ever, specific to one person, but multiple people, and plainly states Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, the substantial and ethereal representations of the two worlds, respectively, will lead to Susanoo.



And it plainly states that Susano'o will have Totsuka, which is not specific to one person.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> It's referring to every Susanoo in general, not a specific "Susanoo", as it literally states that anyone can gain that power, not unique to a specific person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Databook entry of Susano'o mentions Totsuka, Yata Mirror. I don't deny that it's talking in general. Just that the Databook speaks of Susano'o when Itachi was the sole user. It will change with DB4 because Sasuke has also gained Susano'o.


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Nice baseless speculation there. That might explain the demonic feel and appearance, but the weaponry is very different. Sasuke wouldn't get a bow instead of a sword and shield just because Sasuke is angsty. The weaponry won't change even after Naruto saves Sasuke with his love.
> 
> If you read the next scentence of my post that is explained as well.
> We don?t know anything about the bow, which is why I made the assumption of it being a standard weapon of his Susanoo.
> ...







Trent said:


> Why on earth are you talking about how it "_looks_"? I'm talking about how it _*works*_.
> 
> Tsukiyomi was explained and shown to have *no duration outside the illusion within which the caster controls all, time and space included. *It is instantaneous in real time for anyone else as shown when used on Kakashi and from Zetsu's reaction during the Uchiha fight.
> 
> ...



Thank you for remaining professional, but you still seem to remain stubborn to acknowledge the logic presented regarding us not possibly being able to know the things you stated about Tsukiyomi


----------



## Haloman (Oct 11, 2011)

Odlam said:


> He's got Kagatsuchi in one eye, Amataseru in another, and Susanoo of course with the combination.
> 
> Reread the Raikage fight, "C" I think his name was specifically says Sasuke has the Enton manipulating power in one eye, and Amataseru in the other eye.
> 
> Sasuke does not have Tsukiyomi. Danzou spelled it out for the reader that Sasuke did not possess it. Mangekyo is a stronger sharingan, and Sasuke will use it to augment his base genjutsus, but he has no MS specific genjutsus. Those are fairly easy to spot as Kishi names them after Gods and mythical dieties.



So, your argument basically rests on the fact that Kagatsuchi counts as a power, and each set of MS are limited to only three powers total, right?

Let's just be clear on what Kagatsuchi is, though. It's the manipulation of Amaterasu. This includes stopping it and manipulating the shape. So take a look at this:



Itachi was also capable of this manipulation since he stopped it. Itachi just wasn't as adept at it (at least not to our knowledge) as Sasuke is.

I'm not saying that the genjutsu that Sasuke wields is Tsukiyomi, but it seems to be that it _could be_ Tsukiyomi, just on a very very weak scale. Just like Itachi clearly has some ability in what Sasuke labeled "Kagatsuchi."


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Then it also says that every Susano'o in general has Totsuka, which is wrong.


Sasuke choosing not to use Totsuka != Sasuke lacks Totsuka 

Two different things.



Halo2298 said:


> Let's just be clear on what Kagatsuchi is, though. It's the manipulation of Amaterasu. This includes stopping it and manipulating the shape.


"Kagutsutchi" is the spikes specifically, not general manipulation. Notice there was no annoucement when he shaped the flames into ropes and pillars.



Basically, it's up to him to christen whatever he creates.


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

_People this arguement is becoming pointless.

At this point we just do not have sufficient information to *prove *anything.

And this evidence and fact interpretation assumption battle has been going on for too long.

Can we just conclude that until the Databook or Kishi is going to confirm the subjects in reference both sides will just have to settle?

Sasuke may have Tsukiyomi but he also may not.
What we can all agree on is that his second MS technique is a Genjutsu.

Anything else would be an assumption or speculation, hence pointless after 4 pages full of them.

Please let?s drop it until we get confirmations, at that point we can reengage this discussion and the ones that were wrong can be properly flamed

Just joking^^, but seriously there is just no point anymore to proceed!_


----------



## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Sasuke choosing not to use Totsuka != Sasuke lacks Totsuka
> 
> Two different things.



Wrong. Totsuka is a unique legendary item. That's why Orochimaru looked for it all his life when Itachi had it.



Kung Pow said:


> _People this arguement is becoming pointless.
> 
> At this point we just do not have sufficient information to *prove *anything.
> 
> ...



It is, indeed. In fact, I think the topic should have ended when SaiST quoted Hexa's post. I don't mean anything harsh, friend but Hexa's post has quite a weight to justify the argument.


----------



## DanE (Oct 11, 2011)

sasuke has tsukyomi and nobody has responded to my post yet.



> Sasuke has Tsukyomi
> 
> Here it is:
> 
> ...



thats tsukyomi, cant be anything else.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Wrong. Totsuka is a unique legendary item. That's why Orochimaru looked for it all his life when Itachi had it.


Susanoo's weapons were described as traits of the jutsu when used by any Mangekyo Sharingan user. The databook did not ever describe anything as pertaining to Itachi in a unique fashion. The mentioning of Orochimaru is merely circular reasoning.


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

DanE said:


> sasuke has tsukyomi and nobody has responded to my post yet.
> 
> 
> 
> thats tsukyomi, cant be anything else.



That concludes the fact that Sasuke?s second MS technique is a Genjutsu and  has already been considered as agreed upon by anybody.

However if it really was Tsukiyomi is still highly contravercial, as you can see regarding the outcome of this thread.

We will have to wait until the Databooks can confirm the questions and assumptions in reference



Blinx-182 said:


> Susanoo's weapons were described as traits of the jutsu when used by any Mangekyo Sharingan user. The databook did not ever describe anything as pertaining to Itachi in a unique fashion. The mentioning of Orochimaru is merely circular reasoning.



I reread the Databook just now, and yes Blinx is absoltely correct.
Hasan please settle!


----------



## Yuna (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> At this point we just do not have sufficient information to *prove *anything.


Then how come you spent 5 pages declaring yourself winner, stating that facts, logic and whatever proved you right and that you've proven this and that and that we can all agree on that you are correct in your assessments?

If there isn't sufficient information to prove anything, why do you act as if you have?


----------



## Googleplex (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Actually at the current point that can neither be proven or disproven.
> But we can make assumptions and theories based on facts.
> It is a fact that there have only been 6 shinobi to have ever awakened  the Mangekyou Sharingan.
> 
> ...



Actually the databook did say a _few_ reached Susano'o with their MS indicating that many Uchiha attained it, furthermore Itachi said for a while people killed their friends to earn the MS; implying more than six people had the MS.

But the databook described Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi along the lines of ''only those with the Mangekyou Sharingan are permitted to use this jutsu'' whilst something like Kamui was described as "this jutsu can be evoked by training's one's chakra over and over"; the former suggests _any_ Mangekyou comes with Ama-Tsu-Susano'o whilst any MS user who trains his chakra over and over will achieve Kamui.

This is plausible as we know the MS is descended from the Rinnegan and similar to its ancestor eye it has a set of jutsu universal to the eyes alongside the ability to create other jutsu i.e. Kamui.



> Only people that were living in Itachi?s time laps praised the jutsu, so we can conclude from that they all refered to Itachi.



But Madara mentioned he had Tsukuyomi too, on top of that the databook suggested that many Uchiha had mastery over Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (hence they achieved Susano'o); if it was a pure reference to Itachi the statements would've at least been personalised to fit Itachi as opposed to giving it a universal feel.



Odlam said:


> Danzou spelled it out for the reader that Sasuke did not possess it.



Danzo only spelled out that Sasuke's _regular_ Sharingan Genjutsu was not as good as the _Mangekyou_ Sharingan's Tsukuyomi.

Thereafter Danzo described Tsukuyomi's defining trait: being able to warp the victim's perception of time; at the end of his fight Madara answered Danzo's question - why he couldn't initiate Tsukuyomi - with his own Tsukuyomi quote indicating that Sasuke did alter Danzo's perception of time which was clearly with Tsukuyomi as it was shown Sasuke generally cannot get Danzo with Genjutsu, regular, and the fact the flashback during Madara's evaluation had an inverted background which usually means Tsukuyomi.



Marsala said:


> The Databook is useless here because it only describes Itachi's Susano'o. Note that it says Susano'o comes with the sword of Totsuka, but Sasuke's Susano'o does _not_ have the sword of Totsuka; instead, Sasuke has a ball of Enton from which he can draw blades or arrows.
> 
> Sasuke's Susano'o is significantly different from Itachi's and so was awakened in a different way, by Sasuke obtaining Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.



It described Susano'o _in general_ insofar that it mentioned _a few_ achieved it.

Sasuke's Susano'o, incomplete version, showed a sword which looked similar to Totsuka. This indicates some consistency with the databook, arguably.

Only Kagutsuchi was shown after C mentioned that Sasuke was better than Itachi with Amaterasu as he could spatially manipulate the flames; Kagutsuchi is Sasuke spatially recomposing Enton chakra.

Additionally Sasuke used a Genjutsu _very similar_ to Tsukuyomi against Killer Bee which had the inverted colours and even had Sasuke hold his eye when the illusion was broken akin to how Itachi held his eye when Sasuke broke out of Itachi's illusion.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Hmm, I still think Susanoo is a result of Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi.

Blinx has correctly interpreted the Databooks.

I will still look into this matter further by reading them again.

Susanoo is still stated to be a result of the ultimate Ninjutsu Ama and the ultimate Genjutsu Tsuki.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Thoughts on why the two Susanoo are so different.


> > *4. Mangekyo Sharingan*
> > In contrast with Itachi, Sasuke cannot as impressively manipulate Tsukuyomi, but is said to have shown superior use in using Amaterasu, going as far as to perform shape manipulation on the flames and call them his own element.[22; 23; 24]
> >
> > *Mangekyo Sharingan: the avenue of Enton*
> > ...


----------



## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Susanoo's weapons were described as traits of the jutsu when used by any Mangekyo Sharingan user. The databook did not ever describe anything as pertaining to Itachi in a unique fashion. The mentioning of Orochimaru is merely circular reasoning.





Kung Pow said:


> I reread the Databook just now, and yes Blinx is absoltely correct.
> Hasan please settle!



Yes and it says that Itachi is the only user of Susano'o. It's entry is outdated and can't be used since Sasuke also gained Susano'o.

Mentioning of Orochimaru isn't merely a circular reasoning. Zetsu clearly explained that the reason he couldn't find it was because Itachi had it. It's a legendary item. And your reasoning is that Sasuke *chose* a bow instead of Totsuka. This is laughable at best, my friend.

Like I said before, the entry will change in DB4 since Sasuke also has it.


----------



## Yuna (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> You again
> 
> I think you have ridiculed yourself enough in this thread by clearly showing ignorance and being insufficiently informed about what you were irrefutably refering to as fact which just turned out to be your uninformed oppinion.
> 
> I guess trolls will be trolls


Stop using big words incorrectly. Seriously, it hurts my eyes. "irrefutably referring to"?! "Ridiculing myself". As I said before, using big words to make yourself appear to be more intelligent only works if you actually know what they mean and use them correctly.

Also, I noticed how you *did not answer my question*. If you *just refuted yourself*, isn't it you who's "ridicul[ing] yourself"?


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx, can you please provide the Databook page in which it is said that with every MS Totska Notsurugi is bound to be implemented?


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Yes and it says that Itachi is the only user of Susano'o.


It can't be referring to him, when it's also speaking of multiple people ie "those". Remember, it *never describes it in such a unique fashion*. It's almost like trying to establish a difference between two Amaterasu because only one person was outed as a user at the time. 



Hasan said:


> Zetsu clearly explained that the reason he couldn't find it was because Itachi had it.


He also mentioned that no one generally could find it, because it doesn't exist. These "legendary weapons" are chakra constructs: jutsu. You can't find them, like you can't find _*Susanoo*_, because they don't exist. A jutsu created from chakra is not like the sun or water.

Using Orochimaru is simply an example of circular reasoning: _*"because he was looking for it, that means it could have been found!"*_ That was never, ever supported, especially by the databook. Susanoo's weapons are *described* as traits of Susanoo, not _*outside additions*_. Databook supercedes the manga in that regard, as it provides the most information about the jutsu.


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## Yuna (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> All I have said was used correctly, it is not my fault that you are an illiterate.


1) There's a huge difference between "ridicul[ing] [one]self" and "embarassing oneself".
2) "Irrefutably referring to" makes no sense in the context in which it was used and is an awkward phrasing to begin with.
3) I don't even think "an illiterate" is a noun in the sense in which you used it. You need to add a noun afterwards, such as "person" (i.e. "an illiterate person").

Do you seriously believe that you haven't made a single linguistic error in this thread? That you, for instance, used "ridiculing yourself" correctly?



Kung Pow said:


> I did not answer your question because any kind of interaction with you other than mocking is redundant.


Again you use a word wrong.

Also, you didn't answer my question because that's what you do when you cannot refute someone. You declare yourself winner and ignore their arguments.

Have fun declaring yourself winner of every single debate you participate in and misusing the English language while insisting you aren't in an attempt to make yourself look more intelligent when you're actually making yourself look more ridiculous by those of us who actually speak English on an academic level.


----------



## DanE (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> That concludes the fact that Sasuke?s second MS technique is a Genjutsu and  has already been considered as agreed upon by anybody.
> 
> However if it really was Tsukiyomi is still highly contravercial, as you can see regarding the outcome of this thread.
> 
> We will have to wait until the Databooks can confirm the questions and assumptions in reference



I know but I already said It can only be one thing logically, although there are 2 options. 

1. Tsukyomi

2. MS only Genjutsu we dont know about.

I think number 1 is the most logical, why would kishi give Sasuke a new unnamed MS technique even less use it and not name it if it was that important. 

Now my reason of why the Genjutsu used on Bee had to be *Tsukyomi*.

1. Is a known MS only Genjutsu.

2. When it was used the MS activated.

Ive asked people before why would Sasuke activate his MS to use Shackling Stakes(Sharingan Technique) since some people claim that was the technique used on bee.

They respond:  _The Mangekyo Sharingan powers up all 3 primary sharigan attributes including Genjutsu, that was a MS powered Shackling Stakes. _

Although they are correct that the Mangekyo Sharingan does power up Genjutsu, they are still not correct in the fact that the MS kaleidescope has to be activated for the power to be available. Remember what Madara said, one needs the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan to fully control the Kyuubi, so ones needs the *power(Genjutsu power)* of the EMS to control the kyubii.  

He did.  

^ If you take a look, Madara never activated the EMS kaleidoscope but he had the power of the EMS to control the kyubii, what this tells us is that ones you acquire the MS or EMS, you dont need to activate the MS kaleidoscope to acquire the Genjutsu power of MS for basic Sharingan Genjutsu. 

MS kaleidoscopes are only activated when one uses an MS only technique or when one has recently used an MS technique.  This is the reason why Sasuke didn't have to activate the MS kaleidoscope to acquire a MS powered Shackling Stakes, thus he activated it to get access to an MS only Genjutsu which like I said in the beginning is either Tsukyomi or an unnamed MS only Genjutsu we don't know about but it certainly cant be a basic Sharingan Genjutsu(just too improbable)


----------



## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> It can't be referring to him, when it's also speaking of multiple people ie "those". Remember, it *never describes it in such a unique fashion*. It's almost like trying to establish a difference between two Amaterasu because only one person was outed as a user at the time.



Then Sasuke's Susano'o should have been the same as Itachi's. That's why I said it will be changed when DB4 arrives.

Anyway, forget about that. The main focus of the topic was Tsukuyomi.




Kung Pow said:


> _All I have said was used correctly, it is not my fault that you are an illiterate.
> 
> I did not answer your question because any kind of interaction with you other than mocking is redundant._



Well, don't get angry. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. 

But he does bring a point. Look at your posts. You base your claim over Danzo's comment which was clarified with _Hexa's post_ and majority agree with it. Susano'o entry is outdated since Sasuke said that you need MS in both eyes to be able to use Susano'o. They aren't specific. You can activate Susano'o with Kamui and Kotoamatsukami or Kamui/Amaterasu would do the thing.

Databook should be used as an argument. No offence about that but it's outdated in some matters such as this one.


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Then Sasuke's Susano'o should have been the same as Itachi's. That's why I said it will be changed when DB4 arrives.
> 
> Anyway, forget about that. The main focus of the topic was Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...



Well, the Danzo mistranslation is still a subject not fully acknowledged by me, because I do not believe anybody except the Databook or Kishi.

To me Danzo still aid Tsukiyomi but we can forget about it now.
Also it really does not matter if he said Genjutsu or Tsuki because Sasuke having his MS activated, holding his right eye and exhausting it just implys that he was using a MS Genjutsu.

I at this point don?t really care anymore if it indeed was Tsukiyomi or not.

We will see as soon as the Databook is shown


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Sasuke's Susano'o, incomplete version, showed a sword which looked similar to Totsuka. This indicates some consistency with the databook, arguably.



No, that sword was held in the wrong hand and didn't come out of the sake bottle. It was a generic chakra blade, almost certainly made from the chakra blob that Sasuke later drew his arrows out of, the same blob that became black flames in the completed version.

The defining characteristic of Totsuka is the sake bottle.


----------



## Yuna (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> There's a huge difference between "ridicul[ing] [one]self" and "embarassing oneself".


Not in the sense with which you're trying to use them, no. Show me a single dictionary that supports this claim of yours.



Kung Pow said:


> It most certainly does, as a matter of fact I strongly believe you do not fully comprehend its meaning.


...



Kung Pow said:


> Considering that you being an illiterate also logically implys that you neither understand the meaning of the word nor that it can function both as adjective or noun does not surprise me.


Illiteracy is the inability to read and write, period. I am, as you can clearly see, not illiterate. So you're wrong in using that term, no matter how you twist and turn it.



Kung Pow said:


> Have fun declaring yourself (article missing) winner of every single debate you participate in (delete) and misusing the English language while insisting you aren't (comma) in an attempt to make yourself look more intelligent when you're actually making yourself look more ridiculous by (to) those of us who actually speak English on an academic level.


While I'll concede that I forgot an article in my haste (wow gee, how horrible of me!), there is absolutely no need to and a comma in that particular spot.

What does "Delete" mean? Are you seriously claiming that it is incorrect to say "...every single debate you participate in..."? And that we should omit the "in"? Because that would make the sentence grammatically incorrect.

Also, in my haste, I wrote "by" instead of "to". That's me being hasty. That's not me claiming words means things they don't actually mean. But have fun rewriting the English language to suit yourself and then claiming you're correct and everyone else is wrong.

Keep on "ridicul[ing] yourself".


----------



## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Ok guys I have now settled on the Sasuke having Tsukiyomi subject.

I have just talked to a japanese translator about the Danzo issue and he stated that really the term "Genjutsu" was used.

So from that we can conclude that it might not have been Tsuki, but very much that it was still a MS Genjutsu.

If in the it really was Tsuki or not will be shown once we see the Databook.

I personally am actually not all that sure anymore, we will just have to wait for it.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Hasan said:


> Then Sasuke's Susano'o should have been the same as Itachi's.


They are the same. 





The only difference between them is what equipment they displayed, which is up to person using them.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Oct 11, 2011)

One could assume its Tsukiyomi. Amatseru manipulation as the other MS power seems


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> They are the same.
> 
> The only difference between them is what equipment they displayed, which is up to person using them.



They are clearly not the same. Itachi's looks like some tribal chief, while Sasuke's looks like a demon with extra-pointy chin and horns.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> They are clearly not the same. Itachi's looks like some tribal chief, while Sasuke's looks like a demon with extra-pointy chin and horns.


They are the same, minor aesthetic differences aside. Having a discussion over how they aren't the same due to said minor differences would just be nitpicking.


----------



## Googleplex (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> No, that sword was held in the wrong hand and didn't come out of the sake bottle. It was a generic chakra blade, almost certainly made from the chakra blob that Sasuke later drew his arrows out of, the same blob that became black flames in the completed version.
> 
> The defining characteristic of Totsuka is the sake bottle.



Notice how I said Sasuke's *incomplete* Susano'o; we've not seen Sasuke used the sword since then- but we know he has access to a sword.
Going by the databook, which gave a general description of Susano'o, that sword is very likely Totsuka.


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Notice how I said Sasuke's *incomplete* Susano'o; we've not seen Sasuke used the sword since then- but we know he has access to a sword.
> Going by the databook, which gave a general description of Susano'o, that sword is very likely Totsuka.



Actually Sasuke's last appearance did have him using a sword, namely the black flame one with which he stabbed Zetsu. Sasuke does not have Totsuka and its sake bottle, but rather a black flame ball from which he makes black flame weapons. That sword was an incomplete version without black flames, just as the arrows also lacked black flames.

If Sasuke had Totsuka, he would have the sake bottle in his Susano'o's third hand.


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Notice how I said Sasuke's *incomplete* Susano'o; we've not seen Sasuke used the sword since then- but we know he has access to a sword.
> Going by the databook, which gave a general description of Susano'o, that sword is very likely Totsuka.


Gplex, I would say that's some other sword formed out of Susanoo like what was shown with Yasaka. They sure don't look the same. The sword looked like a sword. Totsuka looks like water [Well it's liquor from a jar]. 







The only similarity they do share is that they both expand and that well, they're swords. Heck, that sword is probably a varant of the Kusanagi sword like Zetsu suggested. That makes 3 swords.



Marsala said:


> If Sasuke had Totsuka, he would have the sake bottle in his Susano'o's third hand.


Sasuke kind of prefers black fire over Totsuka.


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Sasuke kind of prefers black fire over Totsuka.



It's not a matter of preference, unless you think that Sasuke said to himself, "Hey! I'd rather use the Black Flame version of Susano'o instead of the Sake Sealing version!" while he was freaking out while facing Danzou and Kakashi. It is really silly to assume that Sasuke has the ability to use Itachi's unique Susano'o powers and vice versa.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Yeah, that's exactly what I think, in addition to what's already mentioned concerning Susanoo's traits. Sasuke began using arrows because of their speed. As long has Susanoo has interchangeable equipments, which it does, I can freely assume that it boils down to preference and that his lack of use is not proof-positive.


----------



## Dolohov27 (Oct 11, 2011)

DanE said:


> sasuke has tsukyomi and nobody has responded to my post yet.
> 
> 
> 
> thats tsukyomi, cant be anything else.


 That's not Tsukyomi. That is the same Genjutsu he use against Orochimaru except with Hawk feathers( aka binding Genjutsu)


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## Odlam (Oct 11, 2011)

Claiming a genjutsu without space/time control to be Tsukiyomi is like saying a regular raiton is black lighting. There's an easily identifiable characteristic to the jutsu. It defines it.

Does anybody realize how bad it would sound if you said a regular katon was a "weak" Amataseru? It either is or it isn't the jutsu.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Time dilation isn't the only characteristic of the jutsu. It's best to compare Sasuke's level to Itachi's back at the massacre. Itachi clearly used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, but he was able to get up. Fast-forward a few years ahead, and Itachi's control over the jutsu is so significant that he can hypnotize people for what seem like days and knock them out [Though Sasuke can do the knockout part].

The only time people have gotten back up from Tsukuyomi are:

1] Itachi vs Sasuke on massacre night
2] Itachi vs Sasuke at Uchiha mountain
3] Sasuke vs Bee

Only in two of those cases was the genjutsu broken and avoided effectively. Sasuke was hit with a Tsukuyomi on massacre night and was able to get back up. Sasuke was hit later with a 24 hour Tsukuyomi and was knocked out cold. Finally, Sasuke was able to survive Tsukuyomi in part 2 via breaking it. Compare Sasuke getting back up in part 1 after withstanding the effects to getting back up in part 2 after avoiding the effects for the most part.

Doesn't that simply imply that the technique's time dilataion is something that's added and not a "defining" characteristic? It's a case of "it's either there or it isn't", not "it *always needs* to be there". The user decides how long the jutsu will be sustained, but that doesn't actually change the jutsu.


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## King Scoop (Oct 11, 2011)

The only reason the ability to control space time is considered a defining characteristic, is because Itachi was the first person we saw use it. For years that's all we knew of the jutsu. Then Sasuke finally gains the MS and genjutsus someone, but since he didn't control time many people said it's not Tsukuyomi. Instead it's some random MS genjutsu thats unnamed. If Sasuke had his own genjutsu wouldn't it have a named by now?

I could never understand how everyone agrees that Sasuke took Amataseru to a higher level than Itachi. But Itachi taking Tsukuyomi to a higher level than Sasuke doesn't make sense to people.


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

The time dilation is always there. On the night of the massacre, Itachi showed Sasuke the whole massacre (and in the 2nd flashback, he also searched through Sasuke's memories for moments of their parents speaking to Sasuke). It didn't knock Sasuke out since the mental damage of one viewing of the massacre wasn't as bad as the 24 hours that Itachi subjected Sasuke to in their reunion.

Also, Sasuke did not take Amaterasu to a higher level than Itachi. Their Amaterasu is exactly the same, though in opposite eyes. What Sasuke took to a higher level is the power to control the flames with the other eye; while Itachi can only put them out, Sasuke can control their shape and density with Enton: Kagutsuchi.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

One more thing. That scene of Itachi using the weak Tsukuyomi on Sasuke on massacre night from which he recovered from:



Is there in the databook description.




Marsala said:


> The time dilation is always there. On the night of the massacre, Itachi showed Sasuke the whole massacre.


By definition, that's really no different from what Sasuke had been doing. There's a level at which it can be used, and then a level to which it can be extended. Even if Sasuke can use his genjutsu for 5 minutes, that's time dilation by definition.


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> One more thing. That scene of Itachi using the weak Tsukuyomi on Sasuke on massacre night from which he recovered from:
> 
> By definition, that's really no different from what Sasuke had been doing. There's a level at which it can be used, and then a level to which it can be extended. Even if Sasuke can use his genjutsu for 5 minutes, that's time dilation by definition.




Sasuke's genjutsu is always in real time; he can't control the target's perception of time at all. In contrast, Tsukiyomi has always increased the flow of time; even the first instance of it in the flashback covered many minutes in a split second.

Sasuke's MS genjutsu is the same as Itachi's non-Tsukiyomi MS genjutsu that Itachi used to show Sasuke Madara's history and the infamous "YOU WILL BECOME MY NEW LIGHT!" vision. That was genjutsu cast from Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan, but it wasn't Tsukiyomi.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx your endurance and determination, regarding constantly explaining and leCturing them after questioning your posts every time is really amazing


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> Blinx your endurance and determination, regarding constantly explaining and leCturing them after questioning your posts every time is really amazing


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## DanE (Oct 11, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> That's not Tsukyomi. That is the same Genjutsu he use against Orochimaru except with Hawk feathers( aka binding Genjutsu)



nope read my explanation


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> *snip*



Despite this picture?s meaning being directed towards me

I have to admit, that was pretty freaking funny


----------



## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Sasuke's genjutsu is always in real time; he can't control the target's perception of time at all.


That was never shown, other than how he chose to use it against Danzo. When he used it on the cloud dude, that was not "real time".







There was the "boom" effect and then he took advantage of the imaginary damage he just inflicted. 



Marsala said:


> even the first instance of it in the flashback covered many minutes in a split second.


It doesn't "increase" the "flow of time". What happens in the genjutsu, can simply happen to the user in the real world in a split second. The fatigue of days of torture happens instantly, while in the genjutsu it seems to happen gradually. Similar to how Naruto accumulates the stress from his shadow clones when he ends the jutsu.


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## Yuna (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Time dilation isn't the only characteristic of the jutsu. It's best to compare Sasuke's level to Itachi's back at the massacre. Itachi clearly used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, but he was able to get up.



That's because Itachi only used it to torture Sasuke mentally, not "physically"(like stabbing  him repeatedly).


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

Tsukiyomi was used in order to fill Sasuke with hate.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 11, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> That's because Itachi only used it to torture Sasuke mentally, not "physically"(like stabbing  him repeatedly).



FallenAngelII has your assessment ever been right?????

Tsukuyomi only does mental damage..... It is a genjutsu....


The illusion doesn't alter the strain experienced by the victim...

Both 12 year old Sasuke and 26 year old Kakashi was given two different illusions...... Yet both ended up in a comatose state, in which only Tsunade could cure...


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> That was never shown, other than how he chose to use it against Danzo. When he used it on the cloud dude, that was not "real time".
> 
> There was the "boom" effect and then he took advantage of the imaginary damage he just inflicted.



It was in real time. Sasuke put the guy into some terrifying illusion and he collapsed immediately. If Sasuke was using Tsukiyomi, he would have interrogated the guy inside the illusion and not have needed to ask any questions in the real world; it would have been done in an instant.



> It doesn't "increase" the "flow of time". What happens in the genjutsu, can simply happen to the user in the real world in a split second. The fatigue of days of torture happens instantly, while in the genjutsu it seems to happen gradually. Similar to how Naruto accumulates the stress from his shadow clones when he ends the jutsu.



It's the same thing. From outside the illusion, it seems like it happens in an instant, but from inside, time appears to be moving normally while the real world is frozen. Sasuke managed to break Itachi's Tsukiyomi after only a couple of minutes had passed in their final battle.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Torturing Sasuke mentally: retaliation.
this. 

Torturing Sasuke mentally [24 hours]: knock out. 

this. 
this. 

The former is where Sasuke is supposed to be: no outstanding time dilation.


Kung Pow, stop spamming before I call Docter Crane.


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## Rama (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow said:


> And of course, the most contradictive and ridiculous statement had to come from Fallen Angel.
> 
> "Itachi tortured him mentally, *not **physically*"
> *  (like stabbing somebody repeatedly)*
> ...



I think he was describing what physically means


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> It was in real time. Sasuke put the guy into some terrifying illusion and he collapsed immediately.


And that was "real time"? That sounds instantaneous. 



Marsala said:


> If Sasuke was using Tsukiyomi, he would have interrogated the guy inside the illusion and not have needed to ask any questions in the real world; it would have been done in an instant.


Tsukuyomi doesn't work in that fashion. The only time the person actually feels the stress from the torture, is when the jutsu is finished and they accumulate that experience, which is then what leaves them shaken and vulnerable. Pain in a genjutsu doesn't generally work in that fashion because the pain in simply an illusion otherwise. 

this. 
this. 

Genjutsu can't be used as a means of torture in that fashion. It can instead only be used to force the person to speak.

Sasuke trying to torture someone in a genjutsu he already can't sustain for long would make less sense than simply torturing the person, having that experience take effect instantly, and questioning them when they are weakened, just as he said before the initiation.


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## Kung Pow (Oct 11, 2011)

I agree with Blinx.

The described use of Tsukiyomi only partially applys in my oppinion.


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## Dolohov27 (Oct 11, 2011)

Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi = Susano'o    2 jutsu 1 in each eye leads to third (simple shit is simple)


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Databook said Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, representing two aspects [Substantial and ethereal worlds] are the only paths to Susanoo. Not Kamui and Amaterasu. Not Tsukuyomi and Kamui. Not KotoAmatsukami and Kamui. Just Amaterasu and Susanoo. Kagutsutchi does not represent the ethereal aspect that's needed in Tsukuyomi. It's just a manipulated form of Amaterasu. 


> There are *two doujutsu *the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of *Light and the material world*, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the *spiritual world and Darkness***. *Only in them *who hold *both of those*, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. The materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> It was in real time. Sasuke put the guy into some terrifying illusion and he collapsed immediately.* If Sasuke was using Tsukiyomi, he would have interrogated the guy inside the illusion and not have needed to ask any questions in the real world; it would have been done in an instant.*



That assessment may be inaccurate....

Performance against Killerbee has an excuse supported by Kishi 

Tsukuyomi may not necessarily happen in an instant..... See the panel above.... 

Sasuke is screaming rather erratically.... during the ordeal... (that is not instant)

Even Kisame was able to get a statement off while the assault was taking place... (again not instant)

Performance against Killerbee has an excuse supported by Kishi 

Kisame stated "Refers to Tsukuyomi as a jutsu used to cause a breakdown in one spirit"


The gunjutsu caste on the cloud nin also produced a similar affect...

Performance against Killerbee has an excuse supported by Kishi 

However it still cannot be considered Tsukuyomi...... As it has not yet been confirmed....

I think the effects of the cloud nin is the closet MS genjutsu feat Sasuke has shown, that one could argue was Tsukuyomi.....


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## Klue (Oct 11, 2011)

FallenAngelII said:


> Shall I chalk this up to you siding with me?



Mhm, quite.

<---------




Viridium said:


> It's Kagatsuchi. Why else would he bother naming it? What Kishimoto was trying to do was make the Mangekyō seem like _more_ than a gateway to these three unique techniques. He was trying to make the Mangekyō seem more illustrious than the Sharingan, and make it *perfectly clear* to the readers that _the Mangekyō_ is the sublime dōjutsu.
> 
> I guess he failed in that venture...
> 
> Kishimoto was just trying to impress his readers.



Kagatsuchi is Amaterasu shaped or molded in a specific manner; it's not the third technique. He could technically shape Amaterasu in other ways - applying each with different names.

Shaping Amaterasu is a feat only performed after Amaterasu is created or summoned with the opposite eye. He still has a genjutsu power in that same Amaterasu-shaping eye, which doesn't require him to utilize the other eye first.

In fact, when he initially gained the Mangekyou, it's implied that he could only use his right-eye genjutsu. It took a dire event before he unlocked his left-eye Mangekyou (Amaterasu). People are suggesting that he hadn't unlocked his Mangekyou powers at all until after using Amaterasu for the first time.


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## Dark Uchiha (Oct 11, 2011)

sasuke right wielded the ability to shape amaterasu.

when he awoken susuanno i thought it was pretty much explained to us by the author through shii.


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## Klue (Oct 11, 2011)

Dark Uchiha said:


> sasuke right wielded the ability to shape amaterasu.
> 
> when he awoken susuanno i thought it was pretty much explained to us by the author through shii.



So, before Amaterasu, Sasuke did not have any Managekyou powers at his disposal? He just randomly activated his Mangekyou and used an illusion from his right-eye for the lulz?


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Klue said:


> So, before Amaterasu, Sasuke did not have any Managekyou powers at his disposal? He just randomly activated his Mangekyou and used an illusion from his right-eye for the lulz?



Yes, that's exactly what he did. His Mangekyou did upgrade his genjutsu (though not to the level of Tsukiyomi or Kotoamatsukami), but Sasuke had not yet awakened any of his three special powers.

If you say that sounds pathetic, remember than Sasuke unlocked all three of them in the final moments of the battle against Bee: Amaterasu (making the black flames), Kagutsuchi (the "new power" of shaping the flames by putting them out), and Susano'o (which Sasuke knew that he could now do, as he hinted to Juugo). That's quite impressive for his first serious battle using the Mangekyou.

And yes, one of Sasuke's powers is useless if there isn't any black flame around, but since Sasuke's other two powers both create black flames, it's a very useful accessory. Sasuke can shoot guided morphing black flame arrows that split up into hawks and shuriken and all kinds of crazy things if he wants... in theory at least.


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## Hexa (Oct 11, 2011)

Sasuke's genjutsu really don't seem much like Tsukuyomi at all.   The genjutsu he has used all seem like _stuff he could already do_ with genjutsu, though presumably they're a bit more vivid or hard to break or something.  

Like, he used his mangekyou to form an illusion where Danzou's hand-eye was still open.  His other MS genjutsu were also pretty standard feeling.  He used a binding genjutsu against B that was pretty similar to Kasegui.  He made an illusion of Itachi against Danzou, which is again a really standard seeming genjutsu.  The one he used against the unnamed cloud ninja could be similar to Tsukuyomi, but then he does interrogate him in the real world, which is very un-Tsukuyomi.


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## Naruko (Oct 11, 2011)

Kung Pow, FAII, put each other on ignore - you've made this thread about you two having a personal fight and it's not appropriate. People encouraging them or posting popcorn.gif replies, don't. Post something related to the opening post topic and if you have nothing new to add or cannot change someones mind, walk away and leave the thread to die.

Thanks guys - life is too short to get or give grief over stuff like this.


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## Puppetry (Oct 11, 2011)

Are you guys seriously arguing linguistics in a thread about _dōjutsu?_ I realize that discussion often deviates from it's original course, but..... seriously?


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 11, 2011)

I have a real hard time believeing that Sasuke's other MS jutsu is to use shape manipulation for the other eye. 

Its obvious he has Tsukiyomi.


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## Googleplex (Oct 11, 2011)

Tsukuyomi's mechanisms aren't really that well known.
I see people saying what is Tsukuyomi-like and what isn't; before we thought it was a Genjutsu that instantly knocks you out... but Danzo reveals that it warps the victim's perception of time.

But we know the user can _choose_ the time gone by; we can't judge by Itachi alone what is and isn't Tsukuyomi-like as he's only used it three times against foes not near the highest tier whereas Sasuke has (Killer B; perfect Jinchuriki) and what he used on Danzo likely was Tsukuyomi as in response to Danzo's wonder (why Izanagi didn't happen): Madara cited Tsukuyomi's time distortion function.

Its likely he does, but personally I've never boiled well with the "each MS user has their own set of jutsu" theory as it seems more held up with fabrication than fact.
But that's why I choose the "the MS trinity is constant for all MS users; they can also create their own jutsu i.e. Kamui/Kagutsuchi/Kotoamatsukami" stance.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 11, 2011)

I don't think Tsukuyomi can be called such without the S/T mechanic....

However after reading Narutopedia(which = allot more credible than most people give credit for, especially when it uses references from the manga) and analyzing what Tsukuyomi does.....

I do think THIS was supposed to be Tsukuyomi(although again it was never confirmed) the effects on THE SHINOBI are very similar......

Even the faces on the victims after the jutsu has been utilized is similar...
THIS
THIS
THIS

However this is the only time Sasuke's genjutsu has ever came close to mimicking the EFFECTS of Tsukuyomi.... 

All other MS genjutsu showings by Sasuke..... Could be chalked up to more powerful versions other other genjutsu:

THIS
THIS
Shackling stake spears...


Regular sharingan genjutsu
THIS
THIS

THIS
THIS

Inverted colors doesn't mean much as we've seen multiple illusions with such effects....

The only feat that hasn't been replicated by any base sharingan technique was "The breaking of an opponents will power" only Tsukuyomi has performed in such a manner, and Sasuke's genjutsu against the cloud fodder manage to produce a similar affect...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However I don't think that the genjutsu used against the cloud fodder is the strongest evidence one can utilize to make the argument of him having Tsukuyomi..... I think the the fact that both Itachi and Sasuke are brothers....... who both have Susano and Amaterasu is the biggest case one could make for him having Tsukuyomi.....


The foundations for Susano has been already established by the Databook, and Sasuke's response doesn't contradict the entry at all..... (Kishi is allot smarter than most give him credit for).......

Sasuke uses his right eye to manipulate Amaterasu and utilized MS genjutsu...... The genjutsu feats above all came from the right eye.... Thus......."Only those who control a double Mangekyou can use his power."

Kagutsuchi could also be a possibility however, it is not confirmed to be an MS jutsu.....

THIS

Sasuke manipulated Enton/Amaterasu above is it was not called such....
And there is a good reason why it was not.....

Because based off (Narutopedia) it was only in regards to SHAPE manipulation of Amaterasu....

THIS

Thus Kagutsuchi may be the name given to one STRICTLY shapes Amaterasu not when one simply relocates the flames, which is just simply what Sasuke did when he covered Susano with enton........

Kagutsuchi is likely not an MS tech, as it hasn't elaborated on sense.... And Sasuke's current Susano seems may further downplay it's usefulness.... Thus if he was going to establish it as an MS tech, the best time would have been BEFORE developing a Susano that may be able to replicate the same thing....

As C stated maybe Sasuke is simply more skilled with Amaterasu, where as Itachi is more skilled with Tsukuyomi.......... 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But as I stated in my initial post.... Is Tsukuyomi.... Tsukuyomi without the S/T aspect....

I think one should wait to Databook 4........ Or EMS Sasuke declares himself using Tsukuyomi......


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## lathia (Oct 11, 2011)

Those "shackling spade spears" have a far more resemblance to Tsukuyomi than anything else. There is an inverse filter being shown, much like Tsukuyomi has shown (except for the Itachi vs Sasuke battle). 

By the way they're not spears, they're feather (presumably hawk or crow) tips. Page 2 for a better picture. 



Anyways, this is a touchy subject. Especially since Sasuke himself stated Susano was awaken after Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu was used. Only thing we need is for Sasuke to say "Tsukuyomi" to 100% confirm it.

Correction, he stated only the MS needed awakening in both eyes. According to Haven-Reader. What a touchy subject indeed.

Edit: Then again, he mentions the "third" and final ability Susanoo. Damn you Kishi


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## Hexa (Oct 11, 2011)

Googleplex said:


> Tsukuyomi's mechanisms aren't really that well known.
> I see people saying what is Tsukuyomi-like and what isn't; before we thought it was a Genjutsu that instantly knocks you out... but Danzo reveals that it warps the victim's perception of time.


We definitely never thought that Tsukuyomi was just a genjutsu that instantly knocks you out.  The whole time condensation thing was the really the main property of the jutsu and was driven home in its first use.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 11, 2011)

lathia said:


> Those "shackling spade spears" have a far more resemblance to Tsukuyomi than anything else. There is an inverse filter being shown, much like Tsukuyomi has shown (except for the Itachi vs Sasuke battle).



You mean this
THIS
THIS

THIS
THIS

None of the two above was Tsukuyomi....

I think one needs to look at not the affect in the illusion, but the affect on the shinobi....

THIS

"That jutsu is used to cause a break down in ones spirit"

"Shackeling stake spears" only paralyzes.....

And the rest of Sasuke's MS genjutsu showing has been simply casting illusions with no affects, but the altering on ones reality..... Ala basic sharingan genjutsu.....

However the one used against the cloud nin is the only one that actually managed to produce the same EFFECT as Tsukuyomi on the victim.....

It not only "Broke his will" he was singing like a canary something he was unwilling to do prior to the genjutsu....

Link removed 




> By the way they're not spears, they're feather (presumably hawk or crow) tips. Page 2 for a better picture.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, this is a touchy subject. Especially since Sasuke himself stated Susano was awaken after Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu was used. Only thing we need is for Sasuke to say "Tsukuyomi" to 100% confirm it.


I agree with your assessment here.....

I'm going to go with Narutopedia on this one.... Not because it is right.... But because I found that it contains often the most popular belief.....

I have yet to see something on the website that wasn't accurate... Just like I have yet to observe inaccurate info on wikipedia.....


----------



## lathia (Oct 11, 2011)

I meant this:




I do wish Kishi was more damn direct. From the above panels, anyone can easily say it's Tsukuyomi minus the fatigue. Then again, we know MS isn't needed to tame the Kyubi. Way to go Kishi, keep leaving those holes uncovered for further development. 

What does the data book say about Susanoo? Any requirements?

Edit:

*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Data Book 3 said:
			
		

> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none
> 
> ...






Is all I could find here.


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

lathia said:


> I meant this:
> 
> 
> I do wish Kishi was more damn direct. From the above panels, anyone can easily say it's Tsukuyomi minus the fatigue. Then again, we know MS isn't needed to tame the Kyubi. Way to go Kishi, keep leaving those holes uncovered for further development.



It's not Tsukiyomi because Bee was merely paralyzed by the illusion of the feathers. As soon as the Hachibi broke the illusion, Bee was free to move again (and how!). If Bee had taken mental damage from Itachi's Tsukiyomi, he could have moved but would have been too mentally stressed to do so.

The cloud-nin that Sasuke interrogated with his MS was probably put into an illusion similar to the one that Sasuke hit Sai with waaaay back around chapter 200, only stronger. That illusion knocked Sai off his feet immediately too, even though it didn't affect his sense of time.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Sasuke took damage from Itachi's Tsukuyomi back at the massacre night, and was able to get back up right away. He took damage again and even Zetsu said he was finished, and he was able to get back up right away, after which he concluded he avoided the mental stress despite being paralyzed initially, because he broke it. What does that tell you in comparison with what happened with Bee?


----------



## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Sasuke took damage from Itachi's Tsukuyomi back at the massacre night, and was able to get back up right away. He took damage again and even Zetsu said he was finished, and he was able to get back up right away, after which he concluded he avoided the mental stress despite being paralyzed initially, because he broke it. What does that tell you in comparison with what happened with Bee?



That's a terrible argument. After the massacre, Itachi didn't intend to traumatize Sasuke to the point of knocking him into a coma since Itachi had more to say to him afterwards, and in their final fight, Sasuke actually broke Tsukiyomi before Itachi could break Sasuke's will. In both cases, though, the genjutsu only lasted an instant in real time.

Bee was physically paralyzed by Sasuke's genjutsu in real time and couldn't move until the Hachibi broke him out, a process that we saw isn't instantaneous when Hachibi did the same in the recent battle against Itachi.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> It's not Tsukiyomi because Bee was merely paralyzed by the illusion of the feathers. As soon as the Hachibi broke the illusion, Bee was free to move again (and how!). If Bee had taken mental damage from Itachi's Tsukiyomi, he could have moved but would have been too mentally stressed to do so.
> 
> *The cloud-nin that Sasuke interrogated with his MS was probably put into an illusion similar to the one that Sasuke hit Sai with waaaay back around chapter 200, only stronger. That illusion knocked Sai off his feet immediately too, even though it didn't affect his sense of time.*



The illusion Sasuke produce against Sai in no way shape or form reflects what was done to the cloud fodder....

Sai was not knocked out after the ordeal.....

Neither did his will seem to be broken...
Link removed
Link removed

You would have done better using this
Link removed

At least they were knocked out....

I don't think Sasuke knocking the cloud ninja off his feat is where my comparison lies... It is the affect it had on the shinobi period... in respects for his unwillingness to give out any information, too singing like a Kanari prior to being knocked out...

If the affects of Tsukuyomi ARE ALOT more consistent and easy to measure the the mechanics of the genjutsu...

We weren't aware this was Tsukuyomi..... Until informed by Zetsu....

Thus trying to measure it strictly by correlation such as usage of S/T mechancs, inverted colors is impossible to do as reader... 

The genjutsu against cloud fodder may not be Tsukuyomi until confirmed.... But the affects of the genjutsu on the shinobi itself has only been replicated by Tsukuyomi....


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> That's a terrible argument. Sasuke to the point of knocking him into a coma since Itachi had more to say to him afterwards


Perhaps Itachi simply wasn't capable of doing such a thing at the time.



Marsala said:


> and in their final fight, Sasuke actually broke Tsukiyomi before Itachi could break Sasuke's will.


Same goes for Bee. 



Marsala said:


> Bee was physically paralyzed by Sasuke's genjutsu in real time and couldn't move until the Hachibi broke him out


Bee broke the genjutsu, which is what caused pain in Sasuke's eye, in comparision with what happened before with Itachi. No matter how "Instant" it appears to be outside of the illusion, it can still be countered within said illusion. 






Marsala said:


> a process that we saw isn't instantaneous when Hachibi did the same in the recent battle against Itachi.


Sasuke didn't break Tsukuyomi instantly, either.


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## Hasan (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Perhaps Itachi simply wasn't capable of doing such a thing at the time.



Sasuke was young and still naive. If Itachi went a little farther, Sasuke would have been dead. And we know Itachi would never do such a thing.


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## Marsala (Oct 11, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> Perhaps Itachi simply wasn't capable of doing such a thing at the time.



Speculation. Irrelevant speculation. Itachi was capable of extending an instant's duration of the genjutsu for many minutes of subjective time. That's the qualification for Tsukiyomi.



> Same goes for Bee.


No, it's totally different. Sasuke broke Tsukiyomi in the instant that the genjutsu was operating. Bee was paralyzed in real time; he was paralyzed in the air and still paralyzed when he hit the ground.


> Bee broke the genjutsu, which is what caused pain in Sasuke's eye, in comparision with what happened before with Itachi.


Wrong! The pain was caused by the use of the genjutsu. Sasuke showed the same pain when he cast a successful genjutsu onto See, even though he (probably) wasn't even using the Mangekyou then.


> No matter how "Instant" it appears to be outside of the illusion, it can still be countered within said illusion.


This is true and it is how Sasuke broke Tsukiyomi, but not how Bee broke Sasuke's non-instant genjutsu. Bee's method takes a short amount of time to be effective; Tsukiyomi would cut him off from the Hachibi and make him helpless.



> Sasuke didn't break Tsukuyomi instantly, either.



Yes Sasuke did. Sasuke had already broken it by that page; it was broken by the page before that when Sasuke is shown with both eyes intact. It's a poor translation anyway; a better one is here: could use

Zetsu says that Sasuke "ate", i.e. was hit by, Tsukiyomi and won't be able to move due to the mental damage; however, he was mistaken since Sasuke had already broken it and took minimal mental damage.


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## BlinkST (Oct 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> That's the qualification for Tsukiyomi.


According to what, exactly? As by definition, Itachi didn't use "Tsukuyomi" on Sasuke. 



Marsala said:


> Bee was paralyzed in real time; he was paralyzed in the air and still paralyzed when he hit the ground.


It's the same thing. They both experienced limb function loss from the accumulated stress brought on by the illusion. 



Marsala said:


> Wrong! The pain was caused by the use of the genjutsu.


The pain was caused by the disruption of the illusion, as with Itachi. It has nothing to do with the illusion itself. 

Bee's method takes a short amount of time to be effective; Tsukiyomi would 





Marsala said:


> cut him off from the Hachibi and make him helpless.


Genjutsu doesn't cut shinobi off from their power.



Marsala said:


> Yes Sasuke did.


No, he didn't. He sustained damage om the illusion before he broke it, hence he fell to his knees and became defenseless for a moment. Same with Bee, who lost control of his body in mid-air. 

Also, the translation I'm using, is the one I went out and paid for, thus I'm [Usually] far more accepting it than anything else.

Besides, I wasn't saying that Sasuke was still under Tsukuyoki, but rather, Tsukuyomi is capable of causing paralysis, thus what happened with Bee is only consistent.


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## Hexa (Oct 12, 2011)

B was paralyzed due to the illusion of spikes through his limbs. We see him recognize it as a genjutsu in real time as he falls to the ground.  Judging from how he broke out of Itachi's genjutsu, the Hachibi then broke the genjutsu.

Really, the only difference between that genjutsu and kasegui was the coloring and the fact that feathers were used instead of spikes.


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## Dark Uchiha (Oct 12, 2011)

Klue said:


> So, before Amaterasu, Sasuke did not have any Managekyou powers at his disposal? He just randomly activated his Mangekyou and used an illusion from his right-eye for the lulz?



yes, unless your saying sasuke used tsukiyomi on danzou on the simultaneous hit they both did on each other in which even madara describe it as a weak genjutsu.


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## BrokenBonds (Oct 12, 2011)

Even if it isn't Tsukuyomi, the genjutsu is most likely the other Mangekyou technique Sasuke possess... And I'm sorry but it's most likely Tsukuyomi guys, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't believe it isn't. 

It follows the format of the Mangekyou anywho: genjutsu, ninjutsu, and then OH MY GAWD WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT THING, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE AHHH!!! Kishimoto hasn't given us any reason not to believe that it were.


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## Haloman (Oct 12, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Speculation. Irrelevant speculation. Itachi was capable of extending an instant's duration of the genjutsu for many minutes of subjective time. That's the qualification for Tsukiyomi.



I don't think this is true. Sasuke has Enton manipulation. Most people are assigning this as Sasuke's 3rd Mangekyo power. However, Itachi had this same ability, only to a lesser extent. After all, during the fight with Sasuke, after landing Amaterasu, Itachi stopped the flames of Amaterasu. As seen from the Sasuke vs. Hachibi fight, this is an ability of the Mangekyo. Sasuke has simply taken this power to a new level that Itachi never showed us. His manipulation of black flames [based on what we've seen] is better than Itachi's.

So why would Tsukiyomi have a different name even if Sasuke's version is infantile compared to Itachi's? It's likely the same tech, just infinitely weaker. After all, there's not much reason to have used genjutsu with an active MS otherwise.



> Yes Sasuke did. Sasuke had already broken it by that page; it was broken by the page before that when Sasuke is shown with both eyes intact. It's a poor translation anyway; a better one is here: could use
> 
> Zetsu says that Sasuke "ate", i.e. was hit by, Tsukiyomi and won't be able to move due to the mental damage; however, he was mistaken since Sasuke had already broken it and took minimal mental damage.



Technically, we don't know that Sasuke broke anything. Itachi was fighting to lose. If he had mind-raped Sasuke and put him in coma number 3, that really wouldn't have served his purposes.


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## Yagami_ (Oct 12, 2011)

He doesn't have Tsukuyomi.  I've already proven it in my thread here which no one could credibly refute (read the first 2 posts):   

And the challenge I posed to the people there who believed he had Tsukuyomi was this:



> For those who argue that Tsukuyomi is required for Susanoo, must also believe that all mastered MS users and Sasuke all have the Totsuka blade and Yata mirror as it is stated by the databook.
> 
> Most important point for those who disagree and must address in their counterpoint:
> 
> ...



The only person who could argue this point in the whole thread was Blinx, and that's only because he believes Sasuke has Totsuka and Yata mirror. Everyone else fell flat on their face hamfistedly attempting to explain why the Susanoo entry applied to all Uchihas, yet the Yata mirror and Totsuka part only applied to Itachi 



Halo2298 said:


> So why would Tsukiyomi have a different name even if Sasuke's version is infantile compared to Itachi's? It's likely the same tech, just infinitely weaker. After all, there's not much reason to have used genjutsu with an active MS otherwise.



This is a silly argument and has been addressed multiple times in the past. If the technique doesnt share the same defining characteristic, then how is it still the same technique? This is what your argument is essentially saying and Odlam said it best in my thread:



			
				Odlam said:
			
		

> It's not a "different version", it's totally not the jutsu period. *It'd be like taking the space/time out of Hiraishin and just running to a tag after you threw it and trying to claim you were performing Hiraishin. It's ridiculous that people can even think a non-instant genjutsu is Tsukiyomi,* its truly one of the most mind-boggling issues to me on these boards because it's such a clear cut black/white no disussion issue, and yet people still can't even sort that out clearly.



And then we have the fallacy-ridden point of MS Genjutsu=Tsukuyomi which your side is fond of rattling to death even though it's been disproven with Koto Amatsukami.  Even not counting that, you mean to tell me that when Itachi was telling the history of the Uchiha to Sasuke, he was using Tsukuyomi?  Please


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## hitokugutsu (Oct 12, 2011)

How is this being analyzed so deep 

Itachi: Amaterasu + Tsukiyomi. He was noted to be particular good at genjutsu, and Danzo even commented on this how is his Tsukiyomi he was able to manipulate time. This would indicate a "regular Tsukiyomi" does not automatically have this. *Itachi > Sasuke in Tsukiyomi*
Itachi's prowess in genjutsu has been reflected in his Susanoo who has an eternal genjutsu sealing sword

Sasuke: Amaterasu + Tsukiyomi. Was always more ninjutsu orientated. Already knew Katon + Raiton at genin level. He was noted to be more adept with Amaterasu and was able to extinguish the flames. *Sasuke simply > Itachi in Amaterasu usage.*
This is also reflected in his Susanoo (the form used against Kakashi briefly) also had a black orb of Amaterasu flames

*It would be retarded for Kagutsychi to be a sperate Mangekyo power, since it relies on Amaterasu being cast first. Its not a separate jutsu, but rather an extension of Amaterasu*

Sasuke also thought Amaterasu manipulation to be the other power of the Mangekyo when he used against Bee and quelled Hachibi being on fire. But this is bullshit; Itachi also extinguished Amaterasu flames in the Uchiha battle, so that was no separate power at all. Same for Kagutsuchi, its merely an extension of Amaterasu usage


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 21, 2012)

SaiST, why are you sure that Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi? His is just far weaker than Itachi's because he can't manipulate the time of the illusion.


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## SaiST (Feb 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> SaiST, why are you sure that Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi? His is just far weaker than Itachi's because he can't manipulate the time of the illusion.


Because *that*?the manner in which Tsukuyomi alters the recipient's sense of time?is what *defines* it; and none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan has been identified as Tsukuyomi.

And the ability of his right Mangekyou Sharingan, that grants him greater control over his Enton, has already been identified as one of his Mangekyou Sharingan's three ocular powers.



Mister said:


> Sasuke did alter Danzo's perception of time.


Uhm... No, I'm afraid he didn't.


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## G Felon (Feb 21, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Because *that*—the manner in which Tsukuyomi alters the recipient's sense of time—is what *defines* it; and none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan has been identified as Tsukuyomi.
> 
> And the ability of his right Mangekyou Sharingan, that grants him greater control over his Enton, has already been identified as one of his Mangekyou Sharingan's three ocular powers.



Yo read naruto wiki it tells you he did Tsukuyomi


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## Mister (Feb 21, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Uhm... No, I'm afraid he didn't.



Then why did a panel of Tobi quoting Danzo's input about Tsukuyomi come along right after Danzo asked why Tsukuyomi didn't work?[1] 
Alongside inverted colours with the MS during Tobi's monologue which generally is associated with Tsukuyomi?[2][3]

My point is, if he didn't, why did Tobi feel compelled to quote Danzo to answer his question?


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## SaiST (Feb 21, 2012)

G Felon said:


> Yo read naruto wiki it tells you he did Tsukuyomi


Narutopedia is managed by fans. And ultimately, they are assuming Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi for the same reasons the other fans are, not because they have any official say on the matter.

Those reasons are:
Susanoo's entry within the 3rd Databook stating that mastery over Tsukuyomi 'n Amaterasu being necessary to materialize the technique. Problem is that it was based on Itachi's example, the only one we had seen at that point.
Danzou's comparison. Many think it wouldn't make sense for Danzou to compare Sasuke's Genjutsu with Itachi's Tsukuyomi otherwise... It's a Genjutsu being cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan wieldin' little brother—of course he'd compare.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 21, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Uhm... No, I'm afraid he didn't.


He actually did. He made his count of how much Izanagi had left one second off, so when he thought when it was still active he stabbed Sasuke and got stabbed himself.


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## BlinkST (Feb 21, 2012)

Mister said:


> Then why did a panel of Tobi quoting Danzo's input about Tsukuyomi come along right after Danzo asked why Tsukuyomi didn't work?[1]
> Alongside inverted colours with the MS during Tobi's monologue which generally is associated with Tsukuyomi?[2][3]
> 
> My point is, if he didn't, why did Tobi feel compelled to quote Danzo to answer his question?


Yeah but that's not really manipulating the time.. What Sasuke did was create an image of Danzo's Sharingan on his hand and trick him into attacking. That's not really manipulating his perception of time in the same fashion [3 days of torture crammed into an instant]. Although like you said, none of that really explains the _in-your-face _negative image if it's not supposed to be Tsukuyomi. 

Unless what you're saying is that Tsukuyomi time manipulation can go two different ways. As the "compression" effect Itachi has displayed or whatever it is you thought Sasuke did to Danzo.

Best examples of time manipulation would be the cloud dude and Bee, as it's implied they were tortured and lost control over themselves due to the stress.


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## SaiST (Feb 21, 2012)

Mister said:


> Then why did a panel of Tobi quoting Danzo's input about Tsukuyomi come along right after Danzo asked why Tsukuyomi didn't work?[1]


Why *Izanagi* didn't work, you mean.





> _Alongside inverted colours with the MS during Tobi's monologue which generally is associated with Tsukuyomi?_


Key word being _"generally"_. I associate the inverted colors more with the Mangekyou Sharingan's power over the illusionary plane, rather than Tsukuyomi specifically.

They were also present within the Genjutsu Sasuke used to bind Killer B's movements.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 21, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Key word being _"generally"_. I associate the inverted colors more with the Mangekyou Sharingan's power over the illusionary plane, rather than Tsukuyomi specifically.
> 
> They were also present within the Genjutsu Sasuke used to bind Killer B's movements.


Those inverted colors are distinct of Tsukuyomi though. We haven't seen the inverted color scheme with Kotoamatsukami, for example.


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## SaiST (Feb 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He actually did. He made his count of how much Izanagi had left one second off, so when he thought when it was still active he stabbed Sasuke and got stabbed himself.


I'm honestly surprised that so many people get this mixed up.

When we're talking about the way Tsukuyomi alters the recipient's sense of time, we're talking about hours 'n days being compressed to a minuscule instance.

What Sasuke did would be akin to using an illusion to make it appear to the victim that a clock is showing 3:30, even though it's 4:00, making them late for an appointment.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Those inverted colors are distinct of Tsukuyomi though. We haven't seen the inverted color scheme with Kotoamatsukami, for example.


Kotoamatsukami is employed to control the actions of it's recipient. For the same reason there has been no need to show us any demonstrations of the imagery present within the illusions used to subjugate the Bijuu, there's been no need to show us what—if anything—was present for Kotoamatsukami.


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## Mister (Feb 21, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:


> Yeah but that's not really manipulating the time.. What Sasuke did was create an image of Danzo's Sharingan on his hand and trick him into attacking. That's not really manipulating his perception of time in the same fashion [3 days of torture crammed into an instant]. Although like you said, none of that really explains the _in-your-face _negative image if it's not supposed to be Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Best examples of time manipulation would be the cloud dude and Bee, as it's implied they were tortured and lost control over themselves due to the stress.



True. 

Though the way Tobi chose to answer Danzo with his own Tsukuyomi quote is still there with the images.

Trolling through the second databook I noticed it said that the user controls the very limits of the Genjutsu. The entry seemed to suggest that just about anything could happen, given Danzo technically has Uchiha blood (through some twisted way) a flat out knockout would be pointless. 
So maybe Sasuke adjusted the illusion so that it would only affect Danzo's view on his eye.

Granted it is possible to make arguments for it being other Genjutsu, however for me Tobi's choice of words to answer and the images you mentioned seem to be too powerful to simply ignore.



SaiST said:


> Why *Izanagi* didn't work, you mean.



Good argument. However the only issue I have is that Tobi specifically chose to reference Tsukuyomi, if it wasn't he could've said what he said without having to draw our attention to the quote.

Further, I looked at the .
I noticed you said _?only lasts for an instant in reality?_; the databook entry makes no reference for how long Tsukuyomi lasts. The closest I could find was this.
Even so, no-one mentioned a universal law that Tsukuyomi _should_ last for only an instant. Kakashi even says Tsukuyomi _can_ affect its victim in an instant, not necessarily that it _must_.

It seems like that is Itachi's application at best, after looking at the databook.

Interestingly the entry did have this: _?The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster's to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.?_​
Depending on how you interpret "images shown _and actions taken_". It is plausible to spin it towards the "Sasuke's got Tsukuyomi" camp.



> Key word being _"generally"_. I associate the inverted colors more with the Mangekyou Sharingan's power over the illusionary plane, rather than Tsukuyomi specifically.
> 
> They were also present within the Genjutsu Sasuke used to bind Killer B's movements.



Ah, but we'd be better off debating the first point as I'm on the notion that what Sasuke used on Killer B _was_ Tsukuyomi.


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## Csdabest (Feb 21, 2012)

Jυstin said:


> No. It wasn't. That's only fans' assumptions, as it was never stated to be Tsukuyomi. Kagutsuchi is something different.



Danzo stated it was Tsukiyomi then went to say that His was nothing compared to Itachi's who could manipulate time with his


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## Dolohov27 (Feb 21, 2012)

G Felon said:


> Yo read naruto wiki it tells you he did Tsukuyomi


 The Naruto wiki is filled with all sorts of mistakes, i mean just look at the Madara profile it says he use Amaterasu.


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## SageEnergyMode (Feb 22, 2012)

Wow, a lot of denial, eh? Sasuke DOES have Tsukuyomi and already used it against Killer Bee. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are requirements for anyone who possesses Susanoo.

So, that is clear proof that Sasuke does indeed possess Tsukuyomi. His is just much weaker than Itachi's.



> Dolohov27 said:
> 
> 
> > The Naruto wiki is filled with all sorts of mistakes, i mean just look at the Madara profile it says he use Amaterasu.



Databook and fanbook confirms, last I looked, that you need Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in order to unlock Susanoo. People may want to somehow believe that Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, but he does. Even Sasuke's fight against Danzou confirmed it. He basically said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was nothing compared to Itachi's.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Feb 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Because *that*—the manner in which Tsukuyomi alters the recipient's sense of time—is what *defines* it; and none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan has been identified as Tsukuyomi.
> 
> And the ability of his right Mangekyou Sharingan, that grants him greater control over his Enton, has already been identified as one of his Mangekyou Sharingan's three ocular powers.


I wonder about that SaiST.
Although you're right that altering the perception of time was shown to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, attribute of Tsukuyomi, it can be used or can't be used.

What I mean is that the user most likely can decide for himself if he actually wants to integrate that aspect of Tsukuyomi or not.

And considering the fact that Itachi had always shown that it's very exhausting to use Tsukuyomi, it's not unlikely that leaving the process of altering the perception of time out, could save chakra and/or reduce the time and intensity of the aftereffects.

And looking at Sasukes situation against Danzou f.e, it wouldn't have been strategically wise aswell.

I'm assuming this because Itachi in the fight against Sasuke, used Tsukuyomi without altering the perception of time aswell.And there was no indication whatsoever that Itachi used Tsukuyomi in the first place.We just saw that Sasuke broke out of it.

I personally thought this was a usual Genjutsu fight because the known attributes of Tsukuyomi this far, couldn't be seen.

And just a side-note:Madara, Sasuke and Itachi use Susano'o.And they all have been identified as such.But they still have different attributes and looks.Im sure you know what I mean with that.(Arrows,Totsuka,Yata,etc.)They simply share the main attributes like different stages,the ripcage and so on.


IIRC, we already discussed the Kagutsuchi thing, and it was no end visible so I'll skip that if you allow 


And I'm sure you can remember the time when Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi.

That inverterted-color thing again.I wonder if that means something.Sure, there is the possibilty that it's generally a sign of a Genjutsu casted with the MS.But I have only seen it when Tsukuyomi was mentioned so far so...or the time Sasuke used his MS Genjutsu on Bee...which was before he used Susano'o for the first time...so.......

If I force you to repeat yourself again, srry for that 



SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Wow, a lot of denial, eh? Sasuke DOES have Tsukuyomi and already used it against Killer Bee. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are requirements for anyone who possesses Susanoo.
> 
> So, that is clear proof that Sasuke does indeed possess Tsukuyomi. His is just much weaker than Itachi's.


I think so aswell but we can't be sure since we have two different explanations about the requirements for Susano'o.

Itachi's version(which can be interpreted differently):"Susano'o, the third and final technique that awoke alongside Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu(...)"

And Sasukes version, which explicit says that only those who awakened the the Mangekyou in both eyes can use Susano'o.

So one says that it can be used after awakening Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, which doesnt mean that either one of these techniques is needed, but just that Susano'o awoke after those as the third technique, and the other says that you need the double Mangekyou, which basically is the same, besides that there is no indication what Jutsus are needed.Just two MS.


And now guess which version is prefered...


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 22, 2012)

SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Wow, a lot of denial, eh? Sasuke DOES have Tsukuyomi and already used it against Killer Bee. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are requirements for anyone who possesses Susanoo.


If he indeed has Tsukuyomi, such showcasing vs. Bee was far from it.

"A genjutsu that can break down ones spirit"

Paralysis doesn't = such.

In fact a similar Paralysis genjutsu has been replicated by the BASE sharingan.

In fact sharingan also boast a unique "Canonical" genjutsu designed for such a function.






> So, that is clear proof that Sasuke does indeed possess Tsukuyomi. His is just much weaker than Itachi's.


If it was as clear as you claim, there wouldn't be such a "Split" decision in regards to the subject matter.




*Databook and fanbook confirms, last I looked, that you need Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in order to unlock Susanoo. People may want to somehow believe that Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, but he does. Even Sasuke's fight against Danzou confirmed it. He basically said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was nothing compared to Itachi's.*[/QUOTE]

But such was only utilized to cite Itachi's Susano, as the jutsu was exclusive to himself at the time of production.

Sense then Sasuke has recon such requirements, to only those who control the double mangekyo can use this power


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## T-Bag (Feb 22, 2012)

i always thought sasuke had tsukuyomi. it was said both eye powers were needed to awaken susano (left and right eye) amatarasu and tsukuyomi. danzo then went on to say sasuke's tsukuyomi was very bad when you consider itachi. the fact that danzo made a comparison between the two, shows sasuke used tsukuyomi, but it just wasnt on itachi's lvl.

itachi specializes in genjutsu, this is why he can control space/time, and sasuke can't. sasuke specializes in ninjutsu, and because of this he can manipulate the flames to however he desires, and itachi can't.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 22, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> *I wonder about that SaiST.
> Although you're right that altering the perception of time was shown to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, attribute of Tsukuyomi, it can be used or can't be used.*



Then how does one distinguish Tsukuyomi from traditional sharingan genjutsu/genjutsu in general? 

All genjutsu manifest some origin with replicating images within a persons mind. Tsukuyomi has only separated itself in one of TWO WAYS. Effects and statement, in which Sasuke: May have a (partition) of one and none of the other.

In other words Tsukuyomi has always been defined by (S/T aspects/Individual in a comatose state(due to former) and a statement defining it as such). 

After recent chapter, I'm willing to believe Sasuke's second dojutsu ability may be a genjutsu, but not necessarily Tsukuyomi.


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## Kaname Kuran (Feb 22, 2012)

Really I don't care if Sasuke has Tsukuyomi or not but Enton: Kagutsuchi seems like such a freaking lazy way to add another MS tech to Sasuke to have the double MS because I mean really all he is doing is giving form to Amaterasu but I guess Kishi has had lazier writing moments then that.

I'm going to just wait for the databook because it's pointless to even try and debate on this because almost everyone here is acting as if their side is pure fact when everything that has really been posted is speculation at best.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Feb 22, 2012)

Kawaii said:


> Really I don't care if Sasuke has Tsukuyomi or not but Enton: Kagutsuchi seems like such a freaking lazy way to add another MS tech to Sasuke to have the double MS because I mean really all he is doing is giving form to Amaterasu but I guess Kishi has had lazier writing moments then that.



I agree it does seem rather redundant, which is why I don't think his second power is Kagutsuchi, as the idea is not being utilized and fleshed out, by his Susano.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Feb 22, 2012)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> [/B]
> *Then how does one distinguish Tsukuyomi from traditional sharingan genjutsu/genjutsu in general? *
> 
> All genjutsu manifest some origin with replicating images within a persons mind. Tsukuyomi has only separated itself in one of TWO WAYS. Effects and statement, in which Sasuke: May have a (partition) of one and none of the other.
> ...


Its stronger and harder to brake?Kurenai was able to brake out of Itachis Genjutsu.And Sakura could dispell Itachis Genjutsu on Naruto aswell.You think they would've been able to brake Tsukuyomi like that aswell?I really, really doubt it.

And as I said, altering the perception of time *can* be integrated, which Itachi in most cases did.But be haunest, in the fight between Itachi and Sasuke, did you notice that Itachi used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke?

I didn't.Cause I thought the same as you.No moon, no inverted colors, no instant mind-rape.Still Tsukuyomi as it seems.

I agree with you on the rest though.I never insisted on it being Tsukuyomi, but it's certainly plausible.

I just think this pattern of MS jutsus works out:

1.Genjutsu (Tsukuyomi,Kotoamatsukami,Sasukes unnamed Genjutsu)
2.Ninjutsu (Amaterasu)
3.Nin/Taijutsu (Susano'o)


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## G Felon (Feb 22, 2012)

Dolohov27 said:


> The Naruto wiki is filled with all sorts of mistakes, i mean just look at the Madara profile it says he use Amaterasu.



He had to of used amaterasu to you  sasunoo so Thier right he used it we just haven't seen it


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## Yuna (Feb 22, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> I just think this pattern of MS jutsus works out:
> 
> 1.Genjutsu (Tsukuyomi,Kotoamatsukami,Sasukes unnamed Genjutsu)
> 2.Ninjutsu (Amaterasu)
> 3.Nin/Taijutsu (Susano'o)


Except both of Shisui's eyes wield Kotoamatsukami.


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## dark messiah verdandi (Feb 22, 2012)

This thread started off a bust.

Enton is sasuke's power, Not Kagutsuchi.
Kagutsuchi is a specific manipulation that changed the shape of his flames into spikes.

Jukai koutan is a type of mokuton
Kagutsuchi is a type of enton.
It is not an independent jutsu, nor is it freeform manipulation. It is a spacial manipulation of amaterasu's enton.

Amaterasu produces Kokuen(Black flames), Enton:kagutsuchi manipulates it into spikes.


As for the Tsukuyomi, Danzo said your genjutsu is nothing compared to itachi's tsukuyomi.
His genjutsu is nothing compared to Shisui's Kotoamatsukami either.

Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi, because he has never transported his and another's mind to a parallel genjutsu dimension. Tsukuyomi is using a Jikukan genjutsu (space time element genjutsu) to create a genjutsu SPACE.

I.E, both consciousnesses are teleported outside of time into a realm where the user is in full control of it's personal flow of time, space, matter, and energy.
It is instant BECAUSE of that. Because the phantasmagorical world is OUTSIDE OF TIME.

Danzo was IN time, and every victim of sasuke's genjutsu, thus he has never USED it.
Does that mean he can't? No. He hasn't Re-invented it yet, but he has not taken the steps to do so.

EMS is true power because the user can realize he has full capacity to invent new jutsu that are based around Inton chakra. That is, making one's imagination real. Kokuen for example does not exist in the real world, that is why amaterasu is needed first. It is the concept of hellfire made real.

MS Genjutsu are stronger, because they are made more concrete. That is why sasuke's genjutsu is irresistible, but not instant. Because he has been using MS genjutsu the whole time, and NOT tsukuyomi.

There.


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## SaiST (Feb 22, 2012)

I'll get to the other replies later, just wanted to address this real quick:



dark messiah verdandi said:


> Enton is sasuke's power, Not Kagutsuchi.


_"Enton"_ refers Amaterasu's flames. The _"Black Flames"_ are just a description of the appearance born from the Seishitsu Henka involved in the creation of this particular brand of Nature Release.

Kagutsuchi, given the significance tied to it's name, likely refers to the ocular power that allows Sasuke to exert greater control over these black flames—hence, the _"Enton"_ label that precedes it.


​
[EDIT] - Aaggh. Gotta say this too—just gotta:



Csdabest said:


> Danzo stated it was Tsukiyomi then went to say that His was nothing compared to Itachi's who could manipulate time with his





SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Even Sasuke's fight against Danzou confirmed it. He basically said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi was nothing compared to Itachi's.





T-Bag said:


> danzo then went on to say sasuke's tsukuyomi was very bad when you consider itachi.



*Spoiler*: _No, he did not_ 





adamkun said:


> The implied subject of this sentence is the "genjutsu" of the previous sentence.  So that gives us (literally and unnaturally):
> (Your genjutsu) and Itachi's "tsukiyomi" that freely manipulates genjutsu time are the heaven and earth different.
> 
> A more natural translation:
> ...





Sho said:


> What he first says is that he'll praise Sasuke for catching him in a genjutsu.
> 
> Then he states that it has no comparison to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...


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## Shikamaru Nara (Feb 22, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Except both of Shisui's eyes wield Kotoamatsukami.


Where do you get that from?Any pages?

Because the Genjutsu Danzou used on Mifune was not Kotoamatsukami since Mifune was not forced to fulfill any order given by Danzou later on.The moment Mifune knew he was under a Genjutsu, he could decide for himself what he does.It was simply Shisuis base Genjutsu.Kotoamatsukami leaves the victim no choice but to follow that order, as seen by Itachi.Itachi has no other choice but to protect Konoha now, even though he is aware of the Genjutsu.

And the fact that Tobi seems to have a similar Genjutsu ability with his base Sharingan as he has shown while controlling the 4th Mizukage, lets me believe that it's an ability, talented Genjutsu user can achieve with their base Sharingan aswell.Unless Tobi has Kotoamatsukami too.But that wouldn't make sense.

Just like Itachi, Shisui had a strong affinity torwards Genjutsu even with his base Sharingan.So far only his left Mangekyou Sharingan was shown to cast Kotoamatsukami via the crow.

And unless Danzou had access to Shisuis MS, it's impossible anyways.

So he maybe had Amaterasu and maybe even Susano'o at his diposal like Itachi and Sasuke.


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## Jυstin (Feb 22, 2012)

Kagutsuchi was used through Sasuke's right eye, and it was called out by name. Kagutsuchi is the Shinto God of Fire, so if it follows the whole "one Shinto God per eye" thing, then he does not possess Tsukuyomi. His Genjutsu has never actually been called Tsukuyomi, and the strain he's had from using such Genjutsu haven't been on par with Tsukuyomi's actual usage strain and backlash. There is no absurd amount of veins in the eyes like with the other uses of his and Itachi's MS Jutsu.

Also Sasuke is seen holding his eye after using the Genjutsu, but we've seen him hold his eye after casting a normal Genjutsu as well. I think people assume that it was Tsukuyomi because he used the Genjutsu while his MS was active, but it's not said that normal Genjutsu can't be used while the MS is active. As far as we've seen, the MS acts just like a normal Sharingan does, only it allows for the use of the MS Jutsu as well.


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## TheUnkow (Feb 22, 2012)

> Danzo said:That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi.
> 
> That scentence already implys Sasuke having used Tsukiyomi on Danzo, else he would have said Genjutsu and not made a direct comparison with the word Tsukiyomi in the scentence.



So you can't compare other type of genjutsu with Tsukuyomi?
He can't compare Madara's and Itachi's genjutsu?
After Ino uses her genjutsu can I say "That is nothing compared to Itachi?s Tsukiyomi"

Just saying ... sorry if someone else tried to and succeeded in explaining the same stuff.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Feb 22, 2012)

Jυstin said:


> Kagutsuchi was used through Sasuke's right eye, and it was called out by name. Kagutsuchi is the Shinto God of Fire, so if it follows the whole "one Shinto God per eye" thing, then he does not possess Tsukuyomi. His Genjutsu has never actually been called Tsukuyomi, and the strain he's had from using such Genjutsu haven't been on par with Tsukuyomi's actual usage strain and backlash. There is no absurd amount of veins in the eyes like with the other uses of his and Itachi's MS Jutsu.
> 
> Also Sasuke is seen holding his eye after using the Genjutsu, but we've seen him hold his eye after casting a normal Genjutsu as well. I think people assume that it was Tsukuyomi because he used the Genjutsu while his MS was active, but it's not said that normal Genjutsu can't be used while the MS is active. As far as we've seen, the MS acts just like a normal Sharingan does, only it allows for the use of the MS Jutsu as well.


I actually didn't want to participate in the Kagutsuchi discussion, but I'm bored 


In the fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Itachi used Tsukuyomi aswell.But there was no indication of him activating it whatsoever.

We just saw Sasuke breaking out of it, and Itachi suffering the aftereffects.

And if Kagutsuchi is indeed Sasukes right MS technique, how was he able to use Susano'o, before he used Kagutsuchi for the first time?He called his control Kagutsuchi, while being inside Susano's ripcage against the Raikage.

And going by any explanation, Sasukes or Itachis, one has to awaken both MS eyes before being able to use Susano'o.

It's debatable that Sasuke already used Kagutsuchi while extinguishing Amaterasus flames on Karin, without naming it.But Itachi did something similar in the fight against Sasuke to protect Sasukes eyes.Which would mean Itachi has Kagutsuchi too, if extinguishing Amaterasus flames is part of Kagutsuchi.I actually think that it's more the shape-shifting and moving of already existing flames that defines it.

*SaiST*, already asked translators to help us out to translate the line where Sasuke commented his ability to extingiuish Amaterasus flames.

And I remember it being translated as "Is this the power of *my* Mangekyou?".
So Sasuke in any case thinks this ability is unique to him.Maybe he thinks it's an additional power, or he is aware that he could have it instead of Tsukuyomi.

But who could he compare his powers to in the first place?It's not like he could ask Itachi :"Nii-san, is it normal that I can put out the black flames?" lol


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## Jason Brody (Feb 22, 2012)

It has been my belief that, perhaps, Kamui in particular is not entirely unique to kakashi. I think that there is some technique that the MS uses which is similar to what Tobi uses to warp things and himself around with; Kakashi's Kamui is probably a weaker version of it (which is reasonable, given he is not an uchiha and only has one sharingan). 

I've also thought, for a while now, that Tsukuyomi is not necessarily genjutsu in the nature of the one Itachi used to manipulate time and perception of pain. Rather, I've thought it a unique, instant-cast genjutsu usable only by a MS owner. It can make the deception of torture in ways that the users like. 

In Itachi's case, it was his victim being tied on a cross and slowly tortured over a period of days in an illusionary world. In Sasuke's case, it is still vague but bends the perception of time like Itachi's, and instead utilizes emotional torture rather than mental torture (perceived pain etc). 

Re


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## dark messiah verdandi (Feb 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> I'll get to the other replies later, just wanted to address this real quick:
> 
> 
> _"Enton"_ refers Amaterasu's flames. The _"Black Flames"_ are just a description of the appearance born from the Seishitsu Henka involved in the creation of this particular brand of Nature Release.
> ...


So, Why didn't he say it when he put the flame around the susano'o ribs?

No spacial manipulation jutsu has ever just given free manipulative control to an element. Gaara's sand control isn't even actually a nature release because he can't produce it from his own body.

Sasuke HAS to produce kokuen. Amaterasu is the douryouku which allows him to produce it anywere he looks, but it is a technique. We have seen that he can produce it from susano'o as well, which means he can produce it even where he isn't looking, so long as his chakra is manifest and his MS is active.


Besides that, kokuen is no longer actually chakra. It is transformed into an element, thus he needs an elemental release to insert his chakra INTO said element and move it. That being said, because his chakra is not physically IN kokuen, it is not like gaara's sand, which ALWAYS has his chakra infused.

Enton is the ability to transform kokuen into different shapes, just like katon is the ability to shape fire. Nature transformation MAKES fire, katon shapes it.

Thus  Katon: goukyaku no jutsu is shaping the fire produced from the mouth into a ball, rather than a stream, or some other shape, like a dragon.

Enton: kagutsuchi is the ability to take kokuen made from the mangekyou, and shaping it into a spiked shield. He has only said it when the shield has manifested, thus it's name only applies to the shield.





Shikamaru Nara said:


> Where do you get that from?Any pages?
> 
> Because the Genjutsu Danzou used on Mifune was not Kotoamatsukami since Mifune was not forced to fulfill any order given by Danzou later on.The moment Mifune knew he was under a Genjutsu, he could decide for himself what he does.It was simply Shisuis base Genjutsu.Kotoamatsukami leaves the victim no choice but to follow that order, as seen by Itachi.Itachi has no other choice but to protect Konoha now, even though he is aware of the Genjutsu.
> 
> ...



I would say you were correct 100% instead of 90 if itachi hadn't shown the ability to use MS douryouku with different eyes.
He used tsukuyomi with his left AND his right. In fact, tsukuyomi was originally cast in the opposite eye.


I suppose the reason that they seperate which eye does which work is because one has a larger burden than the other. It isn't that you CAN'T cast out of another eye. Itachi probably designated one eye for amaterasu because it causes a shitload of damage, and you only need one eye to do it.

Enton needs two. One to shape, the other to produce. For example.

Using one in one eye or the other makes it so that you have less of a vision disparity.

Use the taxing jutsu from one, and the less taxing from the other, and the bad eye doesn't get TOO bad, and the good eye stays relatively fresh.


Susano'o uses both extremely quickly because of the size and detail needed to maintain it. Pumps a shitload of chakra into both really quickly, which damages them.


So it's not that shisui couldn't cast kotoamatsukami out of both eyes. He could. It is that he probably didn't often.


From what it seems, All ms users can use the same jutsu. Some are simply more inclined to one type than another. Another thing is that it is quite obvious that it takes some development to recreate certain jutsu with an MS without going blind.

Itachi didn't naturally have tsukuyomi, susano'o, or amaterasu. 
MADARA TAUGHT HIM HOW. And apparently, he did not think it wise to learn how to use kotoamatsukami.

It takes a full day to recover that eye without large danger. Therefore, you either get it right, or you fudge and loose a day's use of your eye. For some reason, MS jutsu require various tolls related to their effects. Probably amount of chakra used.

So, it could be said that without senju or uchiha chakra, one cannot actually make up for the toll required to re-open the eyes after using kotoamatsukami.

Shisui was a genjutsu master AMONSGST THE UCHIHA. that means his master technique, being a mangekyou technique, was probably so hard to create that no one really knows how or can.

Itachi probably didn't get it right until later anyway. Somehow he got the crow to cast kotoamatsukami on his eyes. But I know that the eyes aren't just a push button.


Maybe Kotoamatsukami is simple to achieve. Perhaps it just takes a huge risk to get it right. One thing we know is tobi has no access to EMS genjutsu. He uses replacement eyes. Shisui had a mangekyou, thus he wanted the eye for the mangekyou, not that shisui had a different kekkei genkai or something.

Sasuke can still use his unique jutsu through itachi's eyes, which means they work the exact same, BUT application is the difference.

The REAL question is "DOES THE MANGEKYOU INGRAIN IT'S TECHNIQUES WITHIN IT'S EYES?" The answer is probably no.  The benefit comes from one eye observing the other's behaviors. 
Mangekyou are not copyable with regular sharingan, but that doesn't mean they aren't with mangekyou.

Itachi didn't have his mangekyou before shisui killed himself. So he probably didn't have the correct formula to create kotoamatsukami. And that is if it is copyable at all. Kotoamatsukami makes the user believe that what they feel is sincere, so they wouldn't even believe it was a genjutsu unless shisui released it. Shisui however gave itachi the eye, probably with kotoamatsukami sealed in it (not unlike itachi's tensha fuin) and probably thought he would do the same thing for itachi that itachi did for sasuke.

He probably thought itachi would implant it into his own eye, but itachi wanted to give his mangekyou to sasuke, thus he put it in the crow.

Itachi would have naturally gained kotoamatsukami if he implanted shisui's eye, because the sharingan copies itself when it casts jutsu. You don't have to keep casting the jutsu over and over again to remember how, you cast it once and you've got it.

So if shisui's eye was triggered to use kotoamatsukami, then itachi's first use of the eye would have taught him how.

Sasuke on the other hand, has recreated all of his douryouku. His differs from itachi's because he created it differently. Amaterasu is the same because he re-made it the same. Itachi's tensha fuin amaterasu most likely downloaded the process straight to his brain, so that could be copied, but susano'o is not, as sasuke didn't have his MS yet.


Sharingan man... full of weirdness and awesome


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## Jυstin (Feb 23, 2012)

> And if Kagutsuchi is indeed Sasukes right MS technique, how was he able to use Susano'o, before he used Kagutsuchi for the first time?He called his control Kagutsuchi, while being inside Susano's ripcage against the Raikage.



It's possible that Kagutsuchi had already been awakened, only that he hadn't used it at the time. Also, I don't think he mentioned Susano'o's awakening until after Kagutsuchi was used, because possibly Susano'o's partial form didn't count as actually awakening it, until the full body took form.


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## SaiST (Feb 23, 2012)

Mister said:


> Good argument. However the only issue I have is that Tobi specifically chose to reference Tsukuyomi, if it wasn't he could've said what he said without having to draw our attention to the quote.


Tobi chose to quote what Danzou said, which is what referenced Tsukuyomi.

It was like pointing out the irony of this Genjutsu he underestimated, and considered _"weak"_ simply because it paled in comparison to Tsukuyomi, still being successfully employed to deliver a decisive blow.



> _Further, I looked at the .
> I noticed you said “only lasts for an instant in reality”; the databook entry makes no reference for how long Tsukuyomi lasts. The closest I could find was this.
> Even so, no-one mentioned a universal law that Tsukuyomi should last for only an instant. Kakashi even says Tsukuyomi can affect its victim in an instant, not necessarily that it must.
> 
> ...


Right, and as I explained to Blinx , it is Tsukuyomi's ability to alter the recipient's sense of time that makes all of that possible. This was never even contested before everybody started suspecting Sasuke of possessing Tsukuyomi.



> _Ah, but we'd be better off debating the first point as I'm on the notion that what Sasuke used on Killer B was Tsukuyomi. _


Yeah, as IpHr0z3nI pointed out already, I don't think that was anything more than a heightened application of Magen: Kasegui. It not only shares a visual likeness, but the fact that Killer B remarked that he could not move as he was still mid-flight indicates that it was a Binding Genjutsu still in effect—not the effect*s* of a Genjutsu that has already concluded.

The Mangekyou Sharingan isn't limited to casting Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami; we saw an example of this as Itachi detailed Madara's history to Sasuke. And it's perfectly sensible that the higher form of the Doujutsu would serve to significantly enhance the power of the Genjutsu cast through it, along with it's more passive abilities.



Shikamaru Nara said:


> I wonder about that SaiST.
> Although you're right that altering the perception of time was shown to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest, attribute of Tsukuyomi, it can be used or can't be used.
> 
> What I mean is that the user most likely can decide for himself if he actually wants to integrate that aspect of Tsukuyomi or not.


And as IpH already touched on, how do you differentiate it from any other powerful Genjutsu cast from the Sharingan, if it could be used without this trait? Simply making it more difficult to dispel can be applied to any Genjutsu as it becomes more powerful.

Where is that line drawn between super enhanced Genjutsu, and a weak Tsukuyomi?



SageNaturalEnergyBunshin said:


> Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are requirements for anyone who possesses Susanoo.





T-Bag said:


> it was said both eye powers were needed to awaken susano (left and right eye) amatarasu and tsukuyomi.


IpH also touched on this already, but that applied to Itachi's example, as it was the only we had seen up 'til that point.



dark messiah verdandi said:


> So, Why didn't he say it when he put the flame around the susano'o ribs?


[3]



> _Besides that, kokuen is no longer actually chakra. It is transformed into an element, thus he needs an elemental release to insert his chakra INTO said element and move it. That being said, because his chakra is not physically IN kokuen, it is not like gaara's sand, which ALWAYS has his chakra infused.
> 
> Enton is the ability to transform kokuen into different shapes, just like katon is the ability to shape fire. Nature transformation MAKES fire, katon shapes it.
> 
> ...


Amaterasu is comprised of the user's chakra, they are not flames being brought to the battlefield through some type of Kuchiyose. This is why the flames emanate an extremely powerful chakra, and why it has been officially deemed as the apex of *Katon*—which contradicts what you are claiming.

Seishitsu Henka, or Nature Release techniques, do not require the use of Keitai Henka to be considered as such. There have been numerous instances of chakra recomposed to a particular nature, being referred to their respective Nature Release without  Keitai Henka being applied to it.

Amaterasu's flames(or _"Kokuen"_ as you like to call them) are Enton, and the douryoku of Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan is what allows him to exert greater control over that Enton.



Jυstin said:


> > And if Kagutsuchi is indeed Sasukes right MS technique, how was he able to use Susano'o, before he used Kagutsuchi for the first time?He called his control Kagutsuchi, while being inside Susano's ripcage against the Raikage.
> 
> 
> 
> It's possible that Kagutsuchi had already been awakened, only that he hadn't used it at the time.



*Spoiler*: _Guys_ 





SaiST said:


> Shikamaru Nara said:
> 
> 
> > Plus Itachi said that Susano'o is the third ability that awakes after the other two were used.But at the Kage summit Sasuke used his Susano'o before he used Enton:Kagutsuchi.
> ...





SaiST said:


> And another one from the awesome suarhnir:


I'm sure some will disagree, but I believe *that* was the _"New Power"_ referenced in the chapter's title.


And again, there's this  to consider.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Feb 23, 2012)

SaiST said:


> And as IpH already touched on, how do you differentiate it from any other powerful Genjutsu cast from the Sharingan, if it could be used without this trait? Simply making it more difficult to dispel can be applied to any Genjutsu as it becomes more powerful.
> 
> Where is that line drawn between super enhanced Genjutsu, and a weak Tsukuyomi?


What you're saying makes sense no doubt.And to a certain point I agree with you.

But if Itachi and Sasuke use a MS Genjutsu without naming it, then I think we have to rely on the visible similarities the Genjutsu share with the moments they casted a Genjutsu and introduced it by it's name.

I'll make an example for those who don't understand my broken grammar 


Bad quality I know 


We know that Itachi uses Tsukuyomi.The question here is, what Genjutsu does Sasuke use.

Important thing to note, Sasuke explicit activated his MS just to cast this Genjutsu and then deactivated it again.So it's defintely a Genjutsu that can't be used with the base Sharingan.

Next is the visible appearence of the Genjutsu.In both examples, the victim is immobilized and finds himself in a space with inverted colors, like a negative image.

The difference is the perception of time and with it, the overall intensity.Itachi was able to compress Kakashis perception of time to a degree, that captured inside the Genjutsu, Kakashi endured 72h of torture, while it was just a blink of an eye in real-time.Sasuke simply didn't try to do that, or was maybe unable to, cause he lacked the experience or skill in using MS Genjutsu.Both is plausible since Sasuke always was more the Ninjutsu than Genjutsu type, and just awakened his MS.

So my conlusion is that Sasukes Genjutsu shares more similarties to Tsukuyomi, than differences.



SaiST said:


> *Spoiler*: _Guys_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know my opnion about Kagutsuchi.I think it's more likely an additional ability to make up the difference in Genjutsu, and underlines Sasukes Ninjutsu talent/affinty.And lets not forget that Sasukes affinity torwards Amaterasu and his Susano'o's appearence, gave his Susano'o a huge benefit, just like the Yata mirror and Totsuka sword equiped Itachis.

Nontheless, the possibility of it being Sasukes right MS technique is there, and would make sense.
My doubts are:

That little bird in the bottom right is adorable isn't it?

That Itachi "stopped" Amaterasu aswell to protect Sasukes eyes.We know that Amaterasu burns until the target is comepletely gone.But in this case Sasuke was it's target and it still stopped.Zetsus comment supports that.

Sasuke used the Enton shape manipulation at the Kage summit for the first time and named it Kagutsuchi.*If*, extinguishing or "stopping" the flames is a part of Kagutsuchi, than Itachi had it too, but was less skilled in using it, since Itachi was more focused on Genjutsu.Which would mean that extinguishing the flames is a base MS ability.

It would work out for me like that SaiST


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## Del Ruiz (Aug 5, 2012)

If you guys will go back and look at the Sasuke/Raikage battle, "C" is acting the part of bystander for part of it and pretty much explains that the powers in Sasuke's left and right eye are Amataseru and Kagatsuchi respectively before the full Susanoo is released. 

Kishi intentionally displayed both of Sasuke's MS powers before Susanoo was brought out in full so as not to confuse people, but apparently everyone's confused anyways.

And Danzou flat out explained for the reader that Sasuke does not use Tsukiyomi, said it very very clearly.

Kishi has put all the information in the manga, but reading comprehension is low.



> So my conlusion is that Sasukes Genjutsu shares more similarties to Tsukuyomi, than differences.



How so? It's just a ramped up regular sharingan genjutsu. The MS just increases the power of it. 

But Tsukiyomi is defined by control of time perception. If Sasuke wanted to torture Kakashi for 72 hours, he'd have to find somewhere he could safely torture him for 3 days. Itachi can do it faster than you can blink. What you're saying is like saying a really really big katon is more similiar to Amataseru than a regular katon because it's more powerful. It's not similiar at all, it's totally missing the defining aspect of the jutsu.


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## tnorbo (Aug 5, 2012)

Del Ruiz said:


> If you guys will go back and look at the Sasuke/Raikage battle, "C" is acting the part of bystander for part of it and pretty much explains that the powers in Sasuke's left and right eye are Amataseru and Kagatsuchi respectively before the full Susanoo is released.
> 
> Kishi intentionally displayed both of Sasuke's MS powers before Susanoo was brought out in full so as not to confuse people, but apparently everyone's confused anyways.
> 
> ...



this is a necro'd thread. the posting date was back in 2011. yeah I agree with you it was obvious from the begining, but some people still needed it spelled out for them. by now the answer is a done deal.


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## BlinkST (Aug 5, 2012)

Del Ruiz said:


> If you guys will go back and look at the Sasuke/Raikage battle, "C" is acting the part of bystander for part of it and pretty much explains that the powers in Sasuke's left and right eye are Amataseru and Kagatsuchi respectively before the full Susanoo is released.


That's a little dishonest. Sasuke used a genjutsu that resembled Tsukuyomi;



And then went off to the Gokage summit to test Susanoo.



In other words, he planned to use Susanoo _before_ Kagu-tsuchi ever came into the picture, which _implies_ he met the criteria for awakening Susanoo by awakening the genjutsu that originated from his right eye, and then awakening Amaterasu from the left eye--in the same day.




He actually told team Hawk about Amaterasu. No point in telling them that without telling of the genjutsu, or show him directing powers from specific eyes. The only way he'd have some idea of the powers he's awaken is based on what Itachi said.  



Del Ruiz said:


> And Danzou flat out explained for the reader that Sasuke does not use Tsukiyomi, said it very very clearly.


He never did any such thing. 



Del Ruiz said:


> But Tsukiyomi is defined by control of time perception.


Tsukuyomi is defined as the _ability_ to exert control over _several_ limitations of the physical world, of which there is time, space, gravity, etc. 



> Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by *limitations* *like* *time*, *gravity*, and *space*; and how people *exert their abilities within those restrictions* is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them *control over those very limitations!*



The defining trait is not the control of _one specific_ limitation of the physical world. The defining trait is the ability to exert control over several limitations of the physical world, _one_ of which is time.


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## Del Ruiz (Aug 5, 2012)

> this is a necro'd thread. the posting date was back in 2011. yeah I agree with you it was obvious from the begining, but some people still needed it spelled out for them. by now the answer is a done deal.



Stupid necro's. Bah usually I know to look at thread dates.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

well, now, with itachi's eyes, he might have both tsukuyomi and kagutsuchi


now i think that we will never really know if he had tsukuyomi before...because these jutsus are usually "proclaimed" when they are used...sasuke never said "tsukuyomi" like he did with amaterasu, kagutsuchi and susanoo


btw, sasuke did use kagutsuchi before using susanoo, remember how he erased amaterasu from bee? that was most likely when he awakened kagutsuchi/enton manipulation


----------



## BlinkST (Aug 5, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> now i think that we will never really know if he had tsukuyomi before...because these jutsus are usually "proclaimed" when they are used...sasuke never said "tsukuyomi" like he did with amaterasu, kagutsuchi and susanoo


 That's not true. Itachi most of the time only mentioned Tsukuyomi when describing what he's about to do. Remember when he stealth-bombed Tsukuyomi and never mentioned he was using it?





Remember all those times Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara conjured Susanoo without saying "Susanoo!"? The only time Itachi ever went "Tsukuyomi!" was in one of the recent chapters. Kabuto anyhow implied both of them could have used that genjutsu. 



Jeαnne said:


> btw, sasuke did use kagutsuchi before using susanoo, remember how he erased amaterasu from bee? that was most likely when he awakened kagutsuchi/enton manipulation


Kagu-tsuchi seems to strictly be the ability to apply shape manipulation to the flames.


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## Yuna (Aug 5, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> Remember all those times Itachi, Sasuke, and Madara conjured Susanoo without saying "Susanoo!"? The only time Itachi ever went "Tsukuyomi!" was in one of the recent chapters. Kabuto anyhow implied both of them could have used that genjutsu.


No Kabuto didn't. Also, they were markedly different. Sasuke's was a base Sharingan Genjutsu and it did not have the colors inverted.

Sasuke does not have Tsukuyomi. If he does, it is in name only, and what would be the point of that?! He has Kagutsuchi.


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## BlinkST (Aug 5, 2012)

Yuna said:


> No Kabuto didn't.






Yuna said:


> Also, they were markedly different. Sasuke's was a base Sharingan Genjutsu and it did not have the colors inverted.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> That's not true. Itachi most of the time only mentioned Tsukuyomi when describing what he's about to do. Remember when he stealth-bombed Tsukuyomi and never mentioned he was using it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


let me explain my point of view better...


wouldnt kishi have someway pointed out that sasuke had tsukuyomi at least once, by making him proclaim it?

the fact that itachi has used it without proclaiming doesnt change the fact that at some point he did...now sasuke, sasuke never proclaimed tsukuyomi. He proclaimed amaterasu, proclaimed kagutsuchi, and proclaimed susanoo, why this?

if kishi's objective was introduce sasuke's new powers...why not make him proclaim tsukuyomi at some point? Either way, the genjutsu that he used against bee definitely looked like tsukuyomi. But i guess that the whole point is the fact that itachi has a genjutsu that can make it 72 hours in 1 second, if its not like this, if sasuke cant control the time, it ends up being just like another MS genjutsu.


----------



## HashiraMadara (Aug 5, 2012)

Perhaps because Itachi is very analytical in his fights, and is a genjutsu type, whereas Sasuke uses genjutsu the way Madara did when he had that sword stuck with Gaara's sand, to temporarily stun your opponent to open a chance for attack.

Itachi was a pacifist, he even took so much care as to not kill Kabuto that he used a technique that blinded one of his eyes, Not only that he's used multiple different genjutsu, even if Sasuke DOES have it, i doubt it would appear the same as Itachi's except about the inverted manner or the crows.. and btw, i'm pretty sure what makes Tsukuyomi what it is, is the fact that no matter how much time passes in the genjutsu, it is instantaneous in the real world, Kakashi fell down as soon as Itachi was done telling him about it.. And Sasuke screamed the moment Itachi opened his eye.

So Tsukuyomi is not just defined by controlling the time in the genjutsu, but also the fact that no matter how long it lasts, it's instantly over in the real world after he uses it.


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## BlinkST (Aug 5, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> But i guess that the whole point is the fact that itachi has a genjutsu that can make it 72 hours in 1 second, if its not like this, if sasuke cant control the time, it ends up being just like another MS genjutsu.


There's no way to say for sure that he can't. Those things are optional. What makes Tsukuyomi different from a regular genjutsu though is the lasting impression it leaves as if it was real, which can only happen if the time alloted for the designed torture [Frightening images and/ physical sensations] is not interrupted.





In other words, what Sasuke was able to do pretty much requires him to be able to manipulate the genjutsu's time. We need to be concerned with the ability to exert control over that trait, not the extent to which the control of that trait is exercised [24 hours; 72 hours etc].


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

the whole point of sasuke's genjutsu against danzou was affect his perception while still moving with time passing in the real world...i find this quite ironic, and it was probably kishi's objective

he made danzou disdain of sasuke's genjutsu saying that itachi's was better, but in the end sasuke needed a genjutsu that lasted in the real world, not in a "tsukuyomi world" that lasts only an instant in the real one...

either way, sasuke's EMS definitely has tsukuyomi now


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## Yuna (Aug 5, 2012)

How does that imply they both have Tsukuyomi? You do realize that the Uchiha clan is renowned for their Genjutsu usage, right? Kabuto was talking about their "[the Uchiha clan's] touted Genjutsu".

I was speaking specifically of the Genjutsu he used to break Itachi out of Kabuto's binding Jutsu. You said Kabuto implied Sasuke had Tsukuyomi, yet the Jutsu Sasuke then subsequently used was a base Sharingan Genjutsu.

Also, as for the others, as I said, they would be Tsukuyomi in name only. Neither features time dilation, so what would be the point of them even being Tsukuyomi?



Jeαnne said:


> either way, sasuke's EMS *definitely* has tsukuyomi now


And yet you have no proof for this besides the fact that Sasuke has transplanted Itachi's eyes, which then mutated.


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## BlinkST (Aug 5, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> the whole point of sasuke's genjutsu against danzou was affect his perception while still moving with time passing in the real world...i find this quite ironic, and it was probably kishi's objective
> 
> he made danzou disdain of sasuke's genjutsu saying that itachi's was better, but in the end sasuke needed a genjutsu that lasted in the real world, not in a "tsukuyomi world" that lasts only an instant in the real one...


I would say that like Amaterasu, it's possible that Tsukuyomi can vary intensity and casting lag.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

Yuna said:


> And yet you have no proof for this besides the fact that Sasuke has transplanted Itachi's eyes, which then mutated.


you just need common sense.


if a fucking crow can have kotoamatsukami by getting an eye transplanted, if danzou can have too, why cant sasuke have itachi's jutsu by transplanting his eyes?

the logic points only this way, there is no way around this. There is no reason why EMS eyes would be an inferior kind of transplant compared to normal ones.

you should be the one explaining me what makes you assume that sasuke's transplant wont work the same way as the others here.



BlinkST said:


> I would say that like Amaterasu, it's possible that Tsukuyomi can vary intensity and casting lag.



yep


----------



## Yuna (Aug 5, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> I would say that like Amaterasu, it's possible that Tsukuyomi can vary intensity and casting lag.


And yet the alleged Tsukuyomi Sasuke used against Killer Bee was *nothing* like Itachi's besides the inverted colors. Sasuke's unnamed Genjutsu was a *binding* Genjutsu with no time dilation properties.

Sasuke did not torture Killer Bee for days in order to exhaust him, he used that Genjutsu simply to immobolize Killer Bee. Killer Bee then dropped to the ground (or faked dropping to the ground) due to immobility. While this was happening, Sasuke, in the real world, was breathing heavily and clutching his eye, which means he wasn't within the Genjutsu world with Killer Bee.

Sasuke was then greatly surprised when Killer Bee broke the Genjutsu and charged at him, which means that Sasuke had no direct line of contact with the Genjutsu world or he would've known that Killer Bee broke out of it the instant he did so.

That unnamed Genjutsu functioned just like *any other binding Genjutsu*. It had absolutely nothing in common with Tsukuyomi except the inverted colors.

The Genjutsu cast on Danzou layered a Genjutsu over Danzou's last open Sharingan to make Danzou think it was still up and running past its expiration. This was a sensory Genjutsu, creating an illusion that only Danzou could see. This one *also* had nothing in common with Tsukuyomi.

So, Sasuke has cast two Genjutsu that inverts colors insofar, one that's a binding Genjutsu, another that's an illusionary Genjutsu. Neither has anything in common with Itachi's Tsukuyomi except the inverted colors. Neither would be anything but Tsukuyomi in name only.

Why would Sasuke possesss Tsukuyomi if he could only get it to work as either an illusionary Genjutsu or a binding Genjutsu, for which there are countless other Genjutsu to choose from?



Jeαnne said:


> you should be the one explaining me what makes you assume that sasuke's transplant wont work the same way as the others here.


Because it's not a normal transplant. I'm of the belief that the EMS transplant is actually a merging of both eyes. This is why the EMS design is a combination of both MS designs. This is heavily implied by the statue shown behind Itachi when he speaks of Sasuke's eyes allegedly becoming his new light (it has two sets of eyes).

The eyes merge and mutate. The result is a stronger Susano'o and an MS that will never go blind. Giving Sasuke all of Itachi's techniques on top of this would be overkill. He doesn't need them for any of his upcoming battles unless Naruto being a Perfect Jinchuuriki somehow makes him immune to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Because it's not a normal transplant. I'm of the belief that the EMS transplant is actually a merging of both eyes. This is why the EMS design is a combination of both MS designs. This is heavily implied by the statue shown behind Itachi when he speaks of Sasuke's eyes allegedly becoming his new light (it has two sets of eyes).
> 
> The eyes merge and mutate. The result is a stronger Susano'o and an MS that will never go blind. Giving Sasuke all of Itachi's techniques on top of this would be overkill. He doesn't need them for any of his upcoming battles unless Naruto being a Perfect Jinchuuriki somehow makes him immune to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.



well, the only thing that itachi's eye could add in terms of jutsu is his tsukuyomi and his susanoo form, both had amaterasu. I dont think that its overkill, after all he has itachi's eyes now, if they got merged, logically again he would obtain itachi's powers. Sasuke himself commented on this.

other thing, we have seen madara using many forms of susanoo, one of them coincidently had two susanoo's merged, it could be a sign that EMS is really MS+MS and the user inherits his brother's MS powers like any other transplant.

naruto will have the counter that the plot requires, its no problem at all.


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## Yuna (Aug 5, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> well, the only thing that itachi's eye could add in terms of jutsu is his tsukuyomi and his susanoo form, both had amaterasu.


We've never heard anyone in the manga or databooks state that the EMS grants you all of the MS powers of the other user, only that it grants you "eternal light" and gives birth to an entirely new Doujutsu (presumably the new eyes).

*Why* must the EMS add new Jutsu? Sasuke is strong enough as he is.



Jeαnne said:


> I dont think that its overkill, after all he has itachi's eyes now, if they got merged, logically again he would obtain itachi's powers. Sasuke himself commented on this.


This isn't a question of what should logically happen if this and that happens. And it's not a foregone conclusion at all, seeing as how this isn't a normal transplant (if my theory pans out) but a *merging* of two different sets of eyes that then *mutate*. Another piece of evidence I can present is that *if* you can get the EMS simply by taking out your own eyes and transplanting a close relative's MS into your empty eye sockets, why did the Uchiha kill each other for generations to get the EMS? Why did Izuna end up blind? *You could simply do a mutual swap*. But that is impossible... because you need *both* sets of eyes. Also, this would explain why the final design is a merging of both designs.

If it's a merging of eyes with a distinct *mutation*, it is entirely possible that the original eyes override the 2nd set of eyes. You simply get "Eternal Light" and a stronger Susano'o, that it's. No complete transplant of all MS powers.

Also, it *would* be overkill in terms of how strong Sasuke is. Why give Sasuke the Sword of Totsuka and the sealing gourd? And why does he need Tsukuyomi? Unless Naruto can now break out of it, it would be a one-shot KO move against Naruto. So either Sasuke gets Tsukuyomi, but it is ineffective and Naruto breaks out of it or he gets it and Naruto can't break out of it, which means that Sasuke would have to miss every time he atetmpts Tsukuyomi against Naruto or that Sasuke would end up *winning* against Naruto, something we know to be an impossibility (unless Kish feels like throwing a huge twist ending of the manga at us).



Jeαnne said:


> other thing, we have seen madara using many forms of susanoo, one of them coincidently had two susanoo's merged, it could be a sign that EMS is really MS+MS and the user inherits his brother's MS powers like any other transplant.


Unless you think Izuna's Susano'o was *identical* to Madara's, that argument doesn't fly, because both heads *are identical*.

We have seen three MS users in possession of both their MS:es in extensive action. All there have specialized in a different field: Itachi's is Genjutsu, Sasuke's is Ninjutsu and Madara's is Taijutsu/Defensive Jutsu (if you ignore his Wood Release).

Is it so difficult to believe that this would be reflected in their powers? Because of Itachi's Genjutsu mastery, his MS gives him Tsukuyomi. Because of Sasuke's mastery of elemental Jutsu and Ninjutsu gives him an Enton-oriented MS and Kagutsuchi. And Madara gets a pair of MS that gives him a superior Susano'o (two heads and a huge Perfect Susano'o).


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

... Yuna, why do you keep insisting that the two heads of Madara's Susanoo are identical? :I

[spoiler='cause they aren't]

_"One of these faces has elongated canine teeth in its lower jaw bracket and two tusks growing from said jaw. The other has similarly elongated canine teeth in its upper jaw bracket instead, as well as a single horn protruding from its forehead."_​[/spoiler]And I know that, at least twice, I've given you an explanation about the circumstances surrounding the Uchiha clan's desire for the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, and why there could've been so much murdering amongst them instead of mutual trades... I guess you didn't find it satisfactory.


*Spoiler*: _Anyways_ 





SaiST said:


> _" In finding a new master, [highlight]his brother's eyes[/highlight] gained eternal light. However, such an [highlight]exchange[/highlight] could only ever take place between members of the same clan." -*cnet*_
> 
> _"It seems that by acquiring a new host, [highlight]his brother's eyes[/highlight] gained eternal light... However, this [highlight]trade[/highlight] can only be carried out among family members. (note: you could read it as "among clan members" as well, but I believe it refers to "family"; ndt)" -*tora-chan*_
> 
> ...








BlinkST said:


> Kagu-tsuchi seems to strictly be the ability to apply shape manipulation to the flames.



*Spoiler*: _Lol_ 





SaiST said:


> Jυstin said:
> 
> 
> > > And if Kagutsuchi is indeed Sasukes right MS technique, how was he able to use Susano'o, before he used Kagutsuchi for the first time?He called his control Kagutsuchi, while being inside Susano's ripcage against the Raikage.
> ...


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## hitokugutsu (Aug 5, 2012)

Kagutsuchi is not really a seperate jutsu, its more an extension of Amaterasu. Hence the reason I believe Sasuk does have Tsuki in other eye

Itachi was just more skilled with Tsuki (to the point where he S/T control in Tsuki)
Sasuke was more skilled with Ama (shape manipulation trough Kagatusuchi)

Both these skills are reflected in their Susanoo

Itachi Suanoo: Genjutsus Sealing Word
Sasuke Suanoo; Amaterasu orb (and most likely Ama coated arrows)


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

hitokugutsu said:


> Kagutsuchi is not really a seperate jutsu, its more an extension of Amaterasu.


That's cast from the opposing eye?

On the other hand, none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his right Mangekyou Sharingan have been identified as Tsukuyomi...

Cue mentions of the prerequisites of Susanoo detailed in the 3rd Databook, which only applied Itachi's lone example of the technique at that point in the story.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Unless you think Izuna's Susano'o was *identical* to Madara's, that argument doesn't fly, because both heads *are identical*.



*Spoiler*: __ 








there is just one horn, if they were identical, this image would have two horns...

i think that we can see it better here too, the face is clearly different
there is no questioning here



they are actually as different as sasuke's and itachi's susanoo

one has beautiful traces and the other looks like a demon



> We have seen three MS users in possession of both their MS:es in extensive action. All there have specialized in a different field: Itachi's is Genjutsu, Sasuke's is Ninjutsu and Madara's is Taijutsu/Defensive Jutsu (if you ignore his Wood Release).
> 
> Is it so difficult to believe that this would be reflected in their powers? Because of Itachi's Genjutsu mastery, his MS gives him Tsukuyomi. Because of Sasuke's mastery of elemental Jutsu and Ninjutsu gives him an Enton-oriented MS and Kagutsuchi. And Madara gets a pair of MS that gives him a superior Susano'o (two heads and a huge Perfect Susano'o).


you honestly think that all these susanoo froms come from madara's MS combined with his own potential? and it has nothing to do with the fact that he has EMS? i mean..._perfect_ susanoo, come on.  

If Itachi's eyes have at least changed sasuke's susanoo form, izuna's eyes might have done something to madara's.


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

Jeαnne said:


> one has beautiful traces


It's got a crazy overbite. :S


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

SaiST said:


> It's got a crazy overbite. :S


im talking about itachi's type, the one behind that probably was izuna's

obviously compared to the other type


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

Ah, sorry. Thought you were still talking about Madara 'n Izuna's.



Jeαnne said:


> If Itachi's eyes have at least changed sasuke's susanoo form, izuna's eyes might have done something to madara's.


The tengu cloak of Madara's fully materialized Susanoo had the bird/Karasu Tengu likeness that Sasuke's gained after taking Itachi's eyes.

Might be related.


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Ah, sorry. Thought you were still talking about Madara 'n Izuna's.
> 
> 
> The tengu cloak of Madara's fully materialized Susanoo had the bird/Karasu Tengu likeness that Sasuke's gained after taking Itachi's eyes.
> ...


yeah i think that its related someway


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## BlinkST (Aug 5, 2012)

SaiST said:


>


I need you to spell out what you're implying


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## Jeαnne (Aug 5, 2012)

i cant wait to see how sasuke's susanoo merged with itachi's will look, itachi's has long hair and sasuke's has those horns


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

BlinkST said:


> I need you to spell out what you're implying


I thought that quote would've done a pretty sufficient job. o.o

To keep it simple, I believe that the evidence suggests that Kagutsuchi was responsible for extinguishing the Enton on Karin, and B. That it was the ocular power he spoke of during that chapter, and the _"new power"_ the chapter's named after.


*Spoiler*: _To supplement that_ 





SaiST said:


> Blinx-182 said:
> 
> 
> > Your intial claim:
> ...





Yuna said:


> SaiST said:
> 
> 
> > Could very well be the latter. But then Sasuke's reaction to having that kind of control over Amaterasu's flames would be suspicious, seeing as how Itachi already gave an example of it.
> ...


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## Yuna (Aug 5, 2012)

SaiST said:


> ... Yuna, why do you keep insisting that the two heads of Madara's Susanoo are identical? :I


I concede they aren't identical then.



SaiST said:


> And I know that, at least twice, I've given you an explanation about the circumstances surrounding the Uchiha clan's desire for the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, and why there could've been so much murdering amongst them instead of mutual trades... I guess you didn't find it satisfactory.


Where in those quotes do you explain why they didn't simply trade eyes? Those quotes explain why you can only steal a close relative's eyes, not why they couldn't simply swap eyes.


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

Yuna said:


> Where in those quotes do you explain why they didn't simply trade eyes? Those quotes explain why you can only steal a close relative's eyes, not why they couldn't simply swap eyes.


Those quotes were meant to be indicative of what has been made clear to us from the offset: That the creation of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan is brought about by an exchange of Mangekyou Sharingan, not physical merging of two different pairs.


*Spoiler*: _As for why mutual exchanges were likely uncommon_ 





SaiST said:


> Yuna said:
> 
> 
> > Itachi said that "countless" Uchiha lives were lost when siblings tried to kill each other for their eyes. If it was a question of a mere exchange, *why didn't they just exchange eyes* and create a clan just *bursting* with Eternal Mangekyou Sharingans?
> ...


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## Csdabest (Aug 5, 2012)

Put it like this. Only 3 users have Susano-o. Itachi, Madara, and Sasuke. Itachi has Tsukiyomi. Madara has to have Tsukiyomi in order for his Moon Eye plan to take effect. Sasuke shown abilities that were stated were Tsukiyomi and even resembled it in some ways. Databook and fanbook state that you must have Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu to unlock Susano-o. Shisui had Mangekyo and was supposedly capable of casting Koto out of each eye but yet failed to unlock Susano-o or have failed to reveal it.


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

Csdabest said:


> Sasuke shown abilities that were stated were Tsukiyomi


Please stop saying it, 'cause .


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## Csdabest (Aug 5, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Please stop saying it, 'cause .



Okay....Indirectly stated. Shown Genjutsu that even had the negative design that Tsukiyomi has. Databook and fanbook go on to state thatSusano-o needs Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi to work. And frankly the only other two uchiha who have Susano-o are.....*drum roll please* Madara and Itachi. Everything is pointing towards Sasuke having Tsukiyomi.


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## SaiST (Aug 5, 2012)

Csdabest said:


> Okay....Indirectly stated.


Keep reaching. 



> _Shown Genjutsu that even had the negative design that Tsukiyomi has._


Hardly conclusive.



> _Databook and fanbook go on to state thatSusano-o needs Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi to work._


Which was based on Itachi's example, the only one we'd seen at that the time of their release.

Sasuke's description of it's prerequisites was far more general, and seemingly apt due to how his ocular powers were just analyzed and detailed earlier on.



> _And frankly the only other two uchiha who have Susano-o are.....*drum roll please* Madara and Itachi._


The only other Uchiha we *know of*.



> _Everything is pointing towards Sasuke having Tsukiyomi._


Besides the fact that another ocular power, Kagutsuchi, has already been designated to his right Mangekyou Sharingan—of which he himself has claimed to have three total—with no identification of Tsukuyomi for hundreds of chapters.


*Spoiler*: _Also_ 





SaiST said:


> We know there's a good reason we have yet to see the Tomoe Seal of Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan, or the abilities of Madara's—but what would be the point in skirting this particular issue after Sasuke has gone as far as fully materializing his Susanoo, which is manifested through mastery of the Mangekyou Sharingan's first two techniques? In addition to the fact that none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan have functioned the way Tsukuyomi has been defined, it just wouldn't make sense after coming so far and revealing so many details about his Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities, and paving the way for even MORE to be revealed, just to finally say _"the Genjutsu he's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan was Tsukuyomi after all!"_
> 
> Just so you know, .


----------



## Dolohov27 (Aug 5, 2012)

I see SaiST still holding it down.


----------



## jacamo (Aug 6, 2012)

this was settled ages ago

Sasukes MS jutsu are Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi


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## Saru (Aug 6, 2012)

Why did this unbelievably boring topic get dredged up... Again? -___-

I mean, it's not like Tobi isn't about to reveal his identity or anything...


OT: Sasuke never had Tsukuyomi, and I don't see why it would be any less potent than Itachi's if he did... Is Itachi's Amaterasu any less potent than Sasuke's? Doesn't seem like it (not taking manipulation in to account, obviously).

Danzo's comment is all the evidence I need TBH. But then again, I'm tired of this topic.


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## Yuna (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Those quotes were meant to be indicative of what has been made clear to us from the offset: That the creation of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan is brought about by an exchange of Mangekyou Sharingan, not physical merging of two different pairs.


I still say it's a merging. It makes more sense.

Except that's just random speculation. For one thing, Itachi blatantly told us that countless Uchiha lives were wasted by them killing their best friends and then their siblings for the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. Unless Itachi lied to Sasuke for absolutely no reason, that still holds true.

There is absolutely no proof that Madara and Sasuke are the only people in the history of Narutoverse to have gained the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

Itachi said that Madara was the only man throughout the Uchiha clan's history to uncover the Sharingan's final secret, that _"final secret"_ being the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan itself. Lots of lives were sacrificed with the intent of making their ocular powers eternal, that doesn't mean any of those attempting to gain the power Madara had were actually successful though—what Itachi said preceding that story would imply they weren't.

Anyways, I'm not going to deny the speculative nature of my explanation, but it's reasonably grounded. Do you think any aspect of what I said is unlikely?



Astrαl said:


> Why did this unbelievably boring topic get dredged up... Again? -___-


A troll necro'd it. If the conversation hadn't started up again by the time I saw it, it would've been closed.


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## Csdabest (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Keep reaching.
> 
> 
> Hardly conclusive.
> ...



Denial at its fullest. Sasuke happen to use Tsukiyomi like genjutsu in his right eye way before he used Kagutsuchi. Bottom line. Amaterasu + Tsukiyomi= Susano-o. Only 3 Uchihas knowns have Susano-o. And frankly its hinted that Madara has it for his moon eye plan. Sasuke has used a weaker version of it because he cant control it. And of course Itachi.


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## Yuna (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Itachi said that Madara was the only man throughout the Uchiha clan's history to uncover the Sharingan's final secret, that _"final secret"_ being the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan itself. Lots of lives were sacrificed with the intent of making their ocular powers eternal, that doesn't mean any of those attempting to gain the power Madara had were actually successful though—what Itachi said preceding that story would imply they weren't.


I read a different translation originally that stated something along the line of "Countless Uchiha lost their lives in the endeavor to unlock the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan".

Also, even if this is true and Madara and Sasuke are the only Shinobi to have unlocked the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, *it doesn't explain why Izuna was left blind*.

Why didn't Madara just transplant his eyes into Izuna? Was Izuna just too weak? Did Madara somehow damage his own eyes beyond repair when he gouged them out?



SaiST said:


> Anyways, I'm not going to deny the speculative nature of my explanation, but it's reasonably grounded. Do you think any aspect of what I said is unlikely?


Not any more likely than my theory. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Trent (Aug 6, 2012)

Yuna said:


> I concede they aren't identical then.
> 
> Where in those quotes do you explain *why they didn't simply trade eyes*? Those quotes explain why you can only steal a close relative's eyes, *not why they couldn't simply swap eyes*.





Yuna said:


> Also, even if this is true and Madara and Sasuke are the only Shinobi to have unlocked the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, *it doesn't explain why Izuna was left blind*.
> 
> Why didn't Madara just transplant his eyes into Izuna? Was Izuna just too weak? Did Madara somehow damage his own eyes beyond repair when he gouged them out?



We don't know that they couldn't have tried to.

But we don't know either that the knew that EMS even _*existed*_ before Madara eyesight ended up evolving one step further.

He took his bros eyes so that he could fight for longer since his own MSs were completely fucked.

The clan would certainly have immediately disposed of his useless eyes to avoid the risk of their doujutsu falling in enemies hans, as it is customary to do.

By the time Madara would have recovered from the eye transplant and realized that his sharingan has evolved to a higher state then it would have been too late to do anything for his brother in that aspect.

After after the discovery of the EMS, there could have been _later on_ in the clan the varied, but failed, attempts in reproducing the results of Madara's transplant as it was mentioned in the manga.


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## tnorbo (Aug 6, 2012)

shouldn't the fact that sasuke has never even attempted tsukuyomi be a prtty big hint he doesn't have it?


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## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

Csdabest said:


> Denial at its fullest.


I'm not the one insisting that Sasuke's in possession of a technique that has never been identified as one of his three ocular powers after one hundred and eighty eight chapters.



Yuna said:


> I read a different translation originally that stated something along the line of "Countless Uchiha lost their lives in the endeavor to unlock the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan".


Implies the same thing, doesn't it?



> _Also, even if this is true and Madara and Sasuke are the only Shinobi to have unlocked the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, *it doesn't explain why Izuna was left blind*.
> 
> Why didn't Madara just transplant his eyes into Izuna? Was Izuna just too weak? Did Madara somehow damage his own eyes beyond repair when he gouged them out?_


An explanation of this, which is in line with what Trent said to you above, was also included at the tail end of  I referred you to earlier.

Guess you missed it.



> _Not any more likely than my theory. So we'll just have to agree to disagree._


I'm not trying to come off as a dick here, Yuna, but we have direct statements of it being an normal transplant, exchange. In spite of that, many cling to this notion of a physical merger between eyes because they cannot fathom how Izuna could have been left with empty eye sockets, how so many lives amongst the Uchiha were taken.

So, what I've laid out fits in line with what we've been told. How could it be no more likely than what you're suggesting?

If you have no desire to continue this discussion, then I guess I will just agree to disagree... I'm just confused as to why this concept of a physical merger between eyes still persists after everything we've been told.


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## Krippy (Aug 6, 2012)

His EMS Genjutsu is comparable to Itachi's Tsukuyomi as seen versus Kabuto. It may not has the time manipulation aspect of it, but I'm sure it is as hard to break out of as Itachi's was. (Basicly impossible w/o a partner)


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## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

xKantStopx said:


> His EMS Genjutsu is comparable to Itachi's Tsukuyomi as seen versus Kabuto. It may not has the time manipulation aspect of it, but I'm sure it is as hard to break out of as Itachi's was. (Basicly impossible w/o a partner)


And I'm sure the same applies to the Genjutsu Madara employed here(which bears a striking resemblance to what Sasuke used back at the Kage Summit, by the way). While many, including myself, are in favor of Madara's possession of the technique, you don't see anybody clamoring on about what he used here being Tsukuyomi... Why? Because it's effects were immediately dispelled by Oonoki, and the argument of it being a _"weaker"_ variant in the hands of another practitioner can't really be used in this case, since it's the great 'n powerful Uchiha Madara.

Fact of the matter is, the Mangekyou Sharingan isn't limited to casting these _"ultimate"_ Genjutsu like Tsukuyomi and Kotoamatsukami, but they are incredibly powerful nonetheless. Even the Genjutsu cast from the regular ol' Sharingan are inherently fierce, the Mangekyou Sharingan only makes them that much stronger.


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## sinjin long (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> If you have no desire to continue this discussion, then I guess I will just agree to disagree... I'm just confused as to why this concept of a physical merger between eyes still persists after everything we've been told.



probably because of the aspect of the fusion between the two separate MS designs in the EMS.


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## SaiST (Aug 6, 2012)

sinjin long said:


> probably because of the aspect of the fusion between the two separate MS designs in the EMS.


Yeah, all that  can be explained away by compatible Mangekyou Sharingan being used by an Uchiha that's already awakened one of their own.

It's just... We've been beaten over the head with it several times already. Shouldn't more people be trying to reason out *how* this obvious exchange of eyes works under these circumstances, instead of trying to jump to all of these strange conclusions that have never been so much as implied?


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## sinjin long (Aug 6, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Yeah, all that  can be explained away by compatible Mangekyou Sharingan being used by an Uchiha that's already awakened one of their own.
> 
> It's just... We've been beaten over the head with it several times already. Shouldn't more people be trying to reason out *how* this obvious exchange of eyes works under these circumstances, instead of trying to jump to all of these strange conclusions that have never been so much as implied?



i agree,but but being told things that are themselves ambigious and seeing something with your own eyes,most people are going to go with what they see.

i myself am still undecided,all the evidence points to a transplant,but  i still have a problem due to the fusion aspect. but thats just me.


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## ShenLong Kazama (Aug 6, 2012)

I thought it has already been proved that Sasuke doesn't possess Tsukuyomi but Enton in his right eye.


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