# Base Itachi vs Base Minato



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 6, 2013)

*Restriction:* MS and KCM 
*Location:* Sannin Battlefield
*Distance:* 20m
*SoM:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga

This is healthy Itachi with perfect eye sight.


----------



## αce (Aug 6, 2013)

So....basically Minato vs nerfed Itachi?


----------



## Dil (Aug 6, 2013)

3 Tomoe Itachi vs a Minato who thrashed Tobi back in the days? Biased as fuck here


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 6, 2013)

Minato without Kyubi powers vs Itachi without MS powers.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

Minato wins lol. 

I thought it was sharingan Itachi vs hirashinless Minato.


----------



## Kai (Aug 6, 2013)

You screwed up on making the restrictions.

Minato curbstomps withh Hiraishin.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Aug 6, 2013)

Minato stomps. Should've restricted Hiraishin/Jikukan Kekkei to make it more even.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

Base Itachi could not even defeat Part I kakashi. He is Asuma level


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 6, 2013)

I know Minato wins, but not as easily as some people are suggesting here.

Minato doesn't start of with Kunai's all over the battlefield. So no Hirashin GG, Manga knowledge gives Minato no knowledge as he never met Itachi.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 6, 2013)

itachi gets solo'd


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Clones and genjutsu are plenty to endanger Minato.​


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Clones and genjutsu are plenty to endanger Minato.​



You know how those clones and genjutsu did a bang up job against Part I Kakashi


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> You know how those clones and genjutsu did a bang up job against Part I Kakashi



Kakashi said that Itachi was holding back a lot, and he wasn't talking about the Mangekyō because he later said "impossible" when the Mangekyō came up. He was talking base skills.

Also, that was based off of his knowledge of 13 year old Itachi, who was presumably weaker than 17 year old Itachi. So yeah. Base Itachi would obviously & comfortably beat part I Kakashi.

Moreover, Kakashi is obviously better suited to countering genjutsu due to the Sharingan, although that still wouldn't be enough in part one due to the layered genjutsu Itachi showed against Sasuke. 

Similarly, Kakashi is also the one that could see exploding bunshin and not Minato thanks to his dōjutsu. The databook says that those with special eyes can see the explosion technique.​


----------



## Kai (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Clones and genjutsu are plenty to endanger Minato.​


Minato can make clones to play with Itachi's, so you actually mean genjutsu GG?


----------



## Ashi (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi said that Itachi was holding back, and he wasn't talking about the Mangekyō because he later said "impossible" when the Mangekyō came up.
> 
> Also, that was based off of his knowledge of 13 year old Itachi, whom was presumably weaker than 17 year old Itachi. So yeah. Base Itachi would obviously & comfortably beat part I Kakashi.​



Yeah except he couldn't even touch him and kakashi kept up fine


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi said that Itachi was holding back a lot, and he wasn't talking about the Mangekyō because he later said "impossible" when the Mangekyō came up. He was talking base skills.



Saying impossible means what? It means that Kakashi cannot believe what just happened. What had just happened was that HE was genjutsu'ed. So, it says nothing about the MS or base skills. Nice job of reaching 



Strategoob said:


> Also, that was based off of his knowledge of 13 year old Itachi, who was presumably weaker than 17 year old Itachi. So yeah. Base Itachi would obviously & comfortably beat part I Kakashi.



But he COULD NOT. He MISERABLY failed in every attempt and Kisame even commented on it



Strategoob said:


> Moreover, Kakashi is obviously better suited to countering genjutsu due to the Sharingan, although that still wouldn't be enough in part one due to the layered genjutsu Itachi showed against Sasuke.



Which he could not do against Kakashi



Strategoob said:


> Similarly, Kakashi is also the one that could see exploding bunshin and not Minato thanks to his dōjutsu. The databook says that those with special eyes can see the explosian technique.



So, in other words Itachi could not do jack shit to Kakashi as I said unless you go fishing for shit the author did not say


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Yeah except he couldn't even touch him and kakashi kept up fine



If you're just going to ignore the whole "he hasn't even begun to show his power" without the Mangekyō thing then only thing you can really latch onto is what happened, and even that isn't flattering.

Itachi very casually countered an ambush from Kakashi when Itachi had been focused on Kurenai. He then causally used ninjutsu without bothering to hide his seals, which Kakashi could barely counter.

If Itachi had been using his flicker speed while using ninjutsu then there's simply nothing Kakashi could have done. Base Itachi was ountnumbered but he was easily in control of the battle.

We later saw base Edo Itachi get the better of base Killer Bee a few times, who'd simply dominate that group, and Edo Itachi was likely resurrected with his impaired body, like other Hiruzen, not his peak.

Do the math.​


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Clones and genjutsu are plenty to endanger Minato.​



Minato can throw 25 Kunai at Itachi. 

Even if he deflects them, Minato catches them all mid-air (cause he's that fast) and throws them back. 

Repeat the process until the Kunai are close enough for a beautiful blitz. 

If Itachi does Genjutsu anything else, he's bombarded by Kunai.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Saying impossible means what? It means that Kakashi cannot believe what just happened. What had just happened was that HE was genjutsu'ed. So, it says nothing about the MS or base skills. Nice job of reaching



You should go reread the chapter. He said that before the genjutsu was used. Your other points are similarly not in line with the manga, so I'd rather not argue with you about what you don't know.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Even if he deflects them, Minato catches them all mid-air (cause he's that fast) and throws them back.



Due to Itachi's superior handspeed, he can cast genjutsu and ninjutsu _while_ deflecting or throwing shuriken with _superior_ speed and marksmanship, as shown against Sasuke and Killer Bee.

Minato would be put in genjutsu and clone feinted after their first shuriken or kunai clashing.

​


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Kakashi's level of skill was able to force Itachi into using the MS... Then Hebi Sasuke was able to dominate Itachi till the MS came out... This all tells us that without the MS, Itachi can't fight certain shinobi.

Now before KCM, there were very good cases that Minato could beat _MS_ Itachi... Now you've taken away the thing Itachi would use to compete with Minato.

Needless to say, Minato wins.


----------



## Sutātekken (Aug 6, 2013)

if you allow MS but not Susanoo this would be fair but as it is now no Minato Stomps


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You should go reread the chapter. He said that before the genjutsu was used. Your other points are similarly not in line with the manga, so I'd rather not argue with you about what you don't know.​



He said that Itachi was only showing the tip of the iceberg with regards to his power. We know the tip of his iceberg is his base power. The rest is MS. 

Base Itachi COULD NOT land ONE successful attack on Kakashi. He tried and failed at every turn. Funny how you are not addressing this and cling to some fanfiction power he has never shown. Base Itachi met Kakashi a second time and got schooled like a school girl by base Kakashi while Naruto defeated him. Those are the manga facts. I am happy to argue them not fanfiction power


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi's level of skill was able to force Itachi into using the MS... *Then Hebi Sasuke was able to dominate Itachi till the MS came out*...



 





			
				viz said:
			
		

> Tobi: *Even your contingency plans were part of his calculations.* Itachi had to pressure you during that battle.
> Sasuke: .....!
> Tobi: I'm sure you already understand why?



Also,



And they were evenly matched before the MS, but the databook and subsequent hype shows that was a farce. Itachi was much more skilled in genjutsu and taijutsu, which is what they exchanged despite Itachi being in bad condition.



Senjuclan said:


> He said that Itachi was only showing the tip of the iceberg with regards to his power. We know the tip of his iceberg is his base power. The rest is MS.





			
				viz said:
			
		

> Asuma: I can't believe he's this good...
> Kakashi: No, actually, *he's better. He hasn't even begun to show his true strength.*





> Itachi: I will show you... the true power of my bloodline.
> Kakashi: *It couldn't be?!*



Kakashi clealry didn't foresee Itachi having the Mangekyō, and the very statement itself isn't about power but about being "good" or skilled. And Kakashi was basing that off of kid Itachi, so... c'mon.​


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Due to Itachi's superior handspeed, he can cast genjutsu and ninjutsu _while_ deflecting or throwing shuriken, as shown against Sasuke and Killer Bee.
> 
> ​



Minato has the ability to throw 25 Kunai at once (and these are heavy Kunai that could possibly plow right through Shuriken ), and he has similarly amazing hand speed based on his striking speed feat against Obito. 

Also, the fact that Minato can instantaneously transport to any deflected Kunai an throw 25 more from an entirely different angle makes Itachi's chances of realistically countering even lower (nonexistent). 

Making a clone won't help, it'll just make the real Itachi weaker.


----------



## Octavian (Aug 6, 2013)

I like OP's implication that minato needs KCM to contend with MS itachi


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Making a clone won't help, it'll just make the real Itachi weaker.



Karasu bunshin aren't Kage bunshin. And your stuck on this 25 kunai at once thing, which I don't get. We've Itachi throw plenty more than that with actual accuracy. 

Not to mention he can also move and cast ninjuts and genjutsu while doing it, so I'm not seeing your strategy working too easily. All Itachi has to do is wave his finger to shut Minato down.

Could Minato recognize it's genjutsu? After a bit. Could he break out? Probably. Would it take more time than if he had an internal partner like Killer Bee? Oh yeah.

Would Minato be wounded or killed because of the technique? I'd think so. Itachi's the genjutsu king, and that's a problem. He also copied Kurenai's genjutsu, which requires no eye contact.

Minato has no Sharingan and no internal partner or external partner, so I see no reason to give him the benefit of the doubt over the most skilled genjutsu user in the manga.​


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Amend your Zaku-level interpretation.



You can't be talking about interpretation when that only really references the fact that Itachi held back Susanoo. 
Also as per the manga, base Itachi got dominated by Sasuke, and no misinterpretations of single panels is going to change that.

So if base Itachi can't even take the likes of base Kakashi or Hebi Sasuke (even without the CSL2) can force Itachi to use the MS. It obviously means base Minato can take this easily.

Read the fight again, base Itachi only did well in pure Taijutsu. When everything got mixed, he got stomped. Thus resorted to Tsukuyomi, then Amaterasu... then shortly Susanoo. So, unless you call losing to Hebi Sasuke being even with him... . 
As for the databook shows no such thing, considering it Kekkei Genkai _are_ included in the DB stats, and the subsequent hype you refer to is simply a bundle of misinterpretations.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Itachi will kill Minato because he is much more resourceful. Minato has no counter to genjutsu and his hiraishin is done by Kunai and seals. Itachi at the age of 7 knew all the techniques of the village so his knowledge on Minato's techniques compare to Minato's knowledge on his techniques is substantial. 

Itachi will counter all of Minato's kunai with his own and while doing so will be able to weave signs for Bunshin while also putting a genjutsu layer over the battle field. That skill alone to do genjutsu, ninjutsu, and taijutsu in synchronization in extreme speed will give Minato extreme difficult time. 

Itachi have also shown better tactics in the manga as well as picking up weaknesses easily in jutsu without prior knowledge of the technique in a second, it's even worse for Minato because Itachi already have knowledge on him. 

Also until Minato have shown a counter to genjutsu he is not beating Itachi, people try to downplay genjutsu because they know it's auto-win. Itachi can have you thinking you are attacking him while you're viciously stabbing yourself in the neck. He has shown feats with multi-layer ninjutsu with Sasuke who has a three tomoe sharingan, he is also credited of controlling people actions as you AO pointed out and him recruiting Deidara.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

With such an unfair set up for Itachi, he gets stomped.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi clealry didn't foresee Itachi having the Mangekyō, and the very statement itself isn't about power but about being "good" or skilled. And Kakashi was basing that off of kid Itachi, so... c'mon.​



Again. He has not started to show his true power, skills. We know that to be the MS not his base skills. It does not matter which translation you use. Kakashi said Itachi was better than what he showed against him. We know what make him better to be the MS. 

Base Itachi skills are no match for Kakashi. Twice they fought and once it ended in a draw and the second time, Kakashi had the upper hand. Only the MS allowed Itachi to get the upper hand. When he could not use it, Kakashi beat him. Manga fact.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Base Itachi could not even defeat Part I kakashi. He is Asuma level



This is just...no. Itachi was dominating that fight and Kakashi acknowledged his own limitations after Itachi pointed them out. Tsukuyomi was only employed to expedite the inevitable because Itachi wanted to get out of there quickly without causing a ruckus. It wasn't until after the timeskip that Kakashi was able to present anything resembling a real threat to Itachi. And then we found out the Itachi he was fighting was only a 30% copy of the original.

Itachi without MS is far beyond "Asuma-level"; the guy had Orochimaru bent over his knee when he was still learning to shave. Part I Kakashi couldn't even throw a punch in that guy's presence; forget Asuma.

Anyway, this isn't as bad as people are saying; Killer B could damage Minato in a mutual strike before he was able to escape with Hiraishin after he gained knowledge of the Jutsu. Minato does win, but Itachi can put up a fight briefly and it'll take a bit more work on Minato's part to get around his guard.

If Minato isn't aggressive about removing Itachi from the fight, he runs the risk of ending up in Izanami, which is not an MS Jutsu and therefore isn't restricted.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi at the age of 7 knew all the techniques of the village





This makes sense. He had wisdom comparable to Hiruzen at that age, according to Hiruzen. 



wis?dom  
/ˈwizdəm/
Noun
The quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.

_Ironclad_.​


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> And your stuck on this 25 kunai at once thing, which I don't get. We've Itachi throw plenty more than that with actual accuracy.



We've seen Itachi throw 25 heavy Kunai with one arm motion?



> Not to mention he can also move and cast ninjuts and genjutsu while doing it, so I'm not seeing your strategy working too easily.



Minato can also throw weapons and cast Ninjutsu, and he can move much faster than Itachi using Hiraishin. 

Itachi deflecting Minato's Kunai only results in Minato relocating to where one fell and throwing more. When Itachi realizes Minato's moved and more Kunai are coming his way, Minato's already at another location, throwing more Kunai.

Like it or not, Minato fights on a pace above the Raikage, and that's a little much for Base Itachi.



> All Itachi has to do is wave his finger to shut Minato down.



Wrong. Minato has to be focusing in on Itach's finger while Itachi casts a Genjutsu.

What are the odds of that happening when Minato is jumping everywhere throwing metal knives at Itachi, who can't deflect them without giving Minato more places to jump to and throw metal knives.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> He said that Itachi was only showing the tip of the iceberg with regards to his power. We know the tip of his iceberg is his base power. The rest is MS.
> 
> Base Itachi COULD NOT land ONE successful attack on Kakashi. He tried and failed at every turn. Funny how you are not addressing this and cling to some fanfiction power he has never shown. Base Itachi met Kakashi a second time and got schooled like a school girl by base Kakashi while Naruto defeated him. Those are the manga facts. I am happy to argue them not fanfiction power



Have you ever notice in the manga Itachi have always shown some kind of back down mentality to Konoha ninja? Even in his battle with Kabuto he chose not attack him or kill him but to educate. 

Also when Kakashi said that he was speaking of his prior knowledge on Itachi being an ANBU squad captain at 13. He also didn't think Itachi had the Mangekyou sharingan, which surprised Kakashi. The fact of the matter is Itachi could had landed several attacks on Kakashi. Base Itachi was able to go hand to hand with both KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, two people I know that will wreck Kakashi in hand to hand.   

Also Killer Bee was able to notice how Minato's haraishin work on first contact and he has bad eyesight yet he was able to counter, what do you think Itachi with the sharingan and the best analytic ability shown in the manga is going to do? He don't need MS he has all the necessary attributes to kill Minato who has shown no feats to counter genjutsu.

The only Uchiha with feats of crazy ways of genjutsu is Itachi, you don't ever see Madara employing it because it's a hax ability which a lot of poster want to downplay. Also Kakashi couldn't even pick up on Itachi ninjutsu with a sharingan, how is Minato? He can just haraishin to a Bunshin which can just explode right when he rasengan it.. Itachi can also confuse him before hand with genjutsu knocking his Kunai away easily... Itachi shown the best accuracy with weapons as he was able to hit the blind spot of 6 pairs of rinnegan. He didn't need MS for all that I listed so that is his base skills.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Like it or not, Minato fights on a pace above the Raikage, and that's a little much for Base Itachi.



If base Bee could handle it then Itachi will be fine long enough to cast genjutsu or whatever.​


Rocky said:


> Minato has to be focusing in on Itach's finger while Itachi casts a Genjutsu.



He has to look, not focus. And as I pointed out before, the genjutsu he copied from Kurenai requires no eye contact.​


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Again. He has not started to show his true power, skills. We know that to be the MS not his base skills. It does not matter which translation you use. Kakashi said Itachi was better than what he showed against him. We know what make him better to be the MS.
> 
> Base Itachi skills are no match for Kakashi. Twice they fought and once it ended in a draw and the second time, Kakashi had the upper hand. Only the MS allowed Itachi to get the upper hand. When he could not use it, Kakashi beat him. Manga fact.



You sure are obstinate about being wrong.

Itachi had Kakashi playing defense the entire time in part 1 and it was Kakashi who broke a sweat first. When he called Kakashi out on his stamina problems, Kakashi admitted he had a point; there's no way he was ever going to win that fight, at that rate, so you can stop pretending what everyone else knows isn't true.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If base Bee could handle it then Itachi will be fine.



So Bee having a sword ready beforehand, in a particular position before Minato teleported, means Itachi will be fine against Hiraishin?


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So Bee having a sword ready beforehand, in a particular position before Minato teleported, means Itachi will be fine against Hiraishin?



Bee intercepting Hiraishin with a tentacle, then preempting Hiraishin to force a stalemate means Itachi, who is smarter and more reflexive than Bee, and doesn't need to save his brother's ass in this scenario like Bee, would be fine, yes.

That isn't to say Minato couldn't trick Itachi, but the herpderp teleport to kunai and re-throw them isn't nearly as solid as Rocky thinks. And in that time, it's much more likely for genjutsu to come into play as a more decisive factor in trickery.

Call it a match up issue if it helps, like Asuma vs Tsunade. Minato has no special genjtusu defense against the best genjutsu user, and that genjutsu user has top tier reflexes and projectile skills to stall Hirashin tactics for a time.​


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So Bee having a sword ready beforehand, in a particular position before Minato teleported, means Itachi will be fine against Hiraishin?



Itachi will be fine because he have better eyesight than Bee as well as more extensive knowledge on Haraishin as his wisdom was on par with a Hokage at age 7. One of the pre-requsites of being Hokage is knowing all of the village's jutsu. 

Believe me Minato will not beat Itachi in a Kunai battle, Itachi can hit blind spots and redirect Kunai off of Kunai while also sending more to another spot with his *EYES CLOSED*. With his *SHARINGAN*, *PERCEPTIVE ABILITY* and *KNOWLEDGE on MINATO'S TECHNIQUES * how is Haraishin even going to be able to tempt Itachi?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Bee intercepting Hiraishin with a tentacle, then preempting Hiraishin to force a stalemate means Itachi, who is smarter and more reflexive than Bee, and doesn't need to save his brother's ass in this scenario like Bee, would be fine, yes.​



Bee didn't intercept Hiraishin with the tentacle, he intercepted a kunai.

Aside from hand seal speed, Itachi is more reflexive than Bee? If someone looks at the page as Bee "intercepting Hiraishin with a tentacle", then that automatically means Bee is *far more* reflexive than Itachi.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Considering Jubito didn't react to Hiraishin with his body, like Bee did.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> If base Bee could handle it then Itachi will be fine long enough to cast genjutsu or whatever. As I pointed out before, the genjutsu he copied from Kurenai requires no eye contact.​




Obito & Ei couldn't handle it. Take emphasis on the latter. Itachi won't be fine.

Base Bee did nothing more than pull a sword to stop Minato from driving a Kunai into his brain. Minato then realized he liked Bee and backed off, instead of, say, jumping to the other side of Bee and stabbing him in the chest.

Kurenai's Genjutsu is too slow, and obvious, and Itachi hasn't ever used it. He would probably opt for his own techniques first, and even if, Minato would be in his grill marking him with his yellow flash body flicker.

Biting your lip countered it, and even Kuranai could defend against Itachi follow-up attack. Jumping to another location would also end Itachi's connection to Minato.


By the way, Bee isn't less reflexive than Itachi. I would think his feats against Minato sealed the deal on that matter.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi will be fine because he have better eyesight than Bee as well as more extensive knowledge on Haraishin as his wisdom was on par with a Hokage at age 7. One of the pre-requsites of being Hokage is knowing all of the village's jutsu.
> 
> Believe me Minato will not beat Itachi in a Kunai battle, Itachi can hit blind spots and redirect Kunai off of Kunai while also sending more to another spot with his *EYES CLOSED*. With his *SHARINGAN*, *PERCEPTIVE ABILITY* and *KNOWLEDGE on MINATO'S TECHNIQUES * how is Haraishin even going to be able to tempt Itachi?







Rocky said:


> Obito & Ei couldn't handle it. Take emphasis on the latter.



Both retardedly ran _into_ Hiraishin kunai though. 



Rocky said:


> Kurenai's Genjutsu is too slow



Not when cast by Itachi's seal-speed.



Rocky said:


> and obvious, and Itachi hasn't ever used it.



He used it when he reflected it, as the databook says.



Rocky said:


> Jumping to another location would also end Itachi's connection to Minato.



Doubt it. Torune stayed in genjtusu when teleported into Kamui.



Rocky said:


> Biting your lip countered it, and even Kuranai could defend against Itachi follow-up attack.



It was Kurenai's technique, so she would recognize it and know the fastest way to counter it. Minato's not a genjutsu master like Kurenai countering his own jutsu. He'd be less efficient.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Even Itachi fans are saying Minato will win based on Haraishin? Haraishin is not as hax as people trying to make it out to be especially when it comes to Itachi who in my opinion is it's perfect counter. You must look at something before you hit it, just looking at Itachi puts you in a genjutsu so Minato throws Kunai to an illusion and Itachi can just throw a Kunai right in his neck once he pop out. GG


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Jumping to another location would also end Itachi's connection to Minato.



No there is no proof of Haraishin being able to jam the connection of genjutsu casted upon someone. Anyway if that is the case Itachi has shown to control someone who believes that their attacks are being directed to Itachi but is committing suicide i.e deidara.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Even Itachi fans are saying Minato will win based on Haraishin? Haraishin is not as hax as people trying to make it out to be especially when it comes to Itachi who in my opinion is it's perfect counter. You must look at something before you hit it, just looking at Itachi puts you in a genjutsu so Minato throws Kunai to an illusion and Itachi can just throw a Kunai right in his neck once he pop out. GG



Minato litters the Hiraishin kunai around the battlefield.

That in-itself makes Hiraishin quite hax when you consider the implications. If Itachi's attacks (his Katon, for instance) are so much as near a single kunai... it could be sent to another close-by kunai towards him.

That's not considering that Minato could teleport and tag Itachi. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Not even Jubito could stop himself from being tagged... so if he can't stop it, obviously Itachi won't be able to do any better.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Both retardedly ran _into_ Hiraishin kunai though.



This is nonsense; I never understood why the Raikage is a "dumbass" for what he did.

Ei's _Ration: Shunshin_ is a technique that no man should even begin to perceive, let alone react to. If you recall, the technique shat on the perceptual ability of Sasuke's Mangekyou. Using it from that distance should of meant game over for anyone.

Minato literally perceived it, flicked a Kunai up _mid-flicker_ to set up for a counter attack, and finally jumped out of the way. Then, he used the Kunai he set up to nearly _blitz_ Ei himself.

So yeah, if Minato's serious, Itachi's dead. The Uchiha has no techniques even close to the speed of the Ration flicker, and Minato still managed to muster up an offense against even that.



> Minato's not a genjutsu master liek Kurenai countering his own jutsu.



He was the Hokage of the leaf. He probably knows what Genjutsu is, and that pain cancels it.


----------



## Kai (Aug 6, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Again. He has not started to show his true power, skills. We know that to be the MS not his base skills. It does not matter which translation you use. Kakashi said Itachi was better than what he showed against him. We know what make him better to be the MS.
> 
> Base Itachi skills are no match for Kakashi. Twice they fought and once it ended in a draw and the second time, Kakashi had the upper hand. Only the MS allowed Itachi to get the upper hand. When he could not use it, Kakashi beat him. Manga fact.


Bro, Kakashi did not know Itachi wielded the MS until that day on the Konoha canal and that is wholly evident by his surprise, "It can't be!"

There's no way Kakashi was even with Itachi when considering what a true successor and better body for the Sharingan is, and Kakashi's demeanor of being more alarmed throughout the skirmish than Itachi was. 

Look at their mannerisms. Kakashi was fighting just to keep up with Itachi the entire encounter. Arguing over technicalities over who landed hits or not doesn't grasp the essence of Itachi's involvement in that fight.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Aug 6, 2013)

I think the posts have been good enough to warrant the thread stays open.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato litters the Hiraishin kunai around the battlefield.
> 
> That in-itself makes Hiraishin quite hax when you consider the implications. If Itachi's attacks (his Katon, for instance) are so much as near a single kunai... it could be sent to another close-by kunai towards him.
> 
> ...



Minato is very capable of doing all that but he is fighting Itachi who has the most powerful thing you can have on your opponent; knowledge. 

Also have you see anyone ever touch Itachi unless he wants them to? How is Minato going to tag him? Also Minato have shown no counter to genjutsu which you must admit will leave him at a disadvantage. Also no one in the manga have not shown more impressive weapon proficiency than Itachi so how Minato Kunai going to be effective? Him zipping around his misdirected Kunai will actually get him in more danger as Itachi is skilled enough to direct kunai off eachother to hit other targets which with Minato moving between them get him killed because his eyes can't follow but Itachi's can.

Itachi can also put a genjutsu field around the battlefield.. i.e Sasuke-Itachi fight.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Minato is very capable of doing all that but he is fighting Itachi who has the most powerful thing you can have on your opponent; knowledge.



That knowledge is worthless without the ability to do anything about Hiraishin.



> Also have you see anyone ever touch Itachi unless he wants them to? How is Minato going to tag him? Also Minato have shown no counter to genjutsu which you must admit will leave him at a disadvantage. Also no one in the manga have not shown more impressive weapon proficiency than Itachi so how Minato Kunai going to be effective? Him zipping around his misdirected Kunai will actually get him in more danger as Itachi is skilled enough to direct kunai off eachother to hit other targets which with Minato moving between them get him killed because his eyes can't follow but Itachi's can.



Now stance has many flaws. By your logic Itachi is untouchable, anytime Itachi has been touched you've automatically written out as Itachi wanted it.
Then you claim Minato has no counter to Sharingan Genjutsu, despite the method described long ago is a well known one. 
Now you presuppose Itachi had the most impressive weapon proficiency with no support for this point... you've not even made it relevant to the Hiraishin kunai teleportation point.

Sure Itachi might be able to do something against Hiraishin 2, however Minato doesn't have to appear exactly where the kunai is, as he's shown many times now. Furthermore if you read the post well, you'd see I referred to Minato using stationary kunai on the ground, which Itachi can't deflect unless he targets them individually, which is a dumb thing to do against a fast foe like Minato.
Minato was able to deflect kunai with shuriken, during the Kakashi Gaiden, whilst ensuring Kakashi wasn't touched. Minato's going to be fine against Itachi's kunai skill.



> Itachi can also put a genjutsu field around the battlefield.. i.e Sasuke-Itachi fight.



Itachi plans to have a Sharingan Genjutsu war with Minato?


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

B did react to Minato coming out of Hiraishin and so can Itachi.

But to think that this can be done consistently is just unrealistic as all hell; Minato only needs to coordinate his attacks right to slip into an opening Itachi can't defend in time and nail him with Rasengan.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> B did react to Minato coming out of Hiraishin and so can Itachi.



Bee was in that position before Minato teleported. It is worth noting Minato took the time to speak to A, which gave Bee extra time to do things. Something Itachi can't do.

Now the "Itachi reacted to Hiraishin" will become a laughable argument, if it is going to be taken seriously. This is because characters with reflexes far above Itachi and Bee (such as Obito [with his physical body] and A) couldn't react to it.



> But to think that this can be done consistently is just unrealistic as all hell; Minato only needs to coordinate his attacks right to slip into an opening Itachi can't defend in time and nail him with Rasengan.



How is Itachi could to tell which kunai Minato's going to teleport to? Further, what is _base_ Itachi going to be able to do about it? Bearing in mind Minato can freely choose when to teleport, and to which marked location... whilst considering Minato's speed.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Aug 6, 2013)

How is Itachi supposed to defend himself


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That knowledge is worthless without the ability to do anything about Hiraishin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



His ability with kunai is the most impressive in the manga as have been shown many times and be complimented on many times by high level characters who even possess the Rinnegan field of vision. 

First off Itachi can cast a sharingan genjutsu field around the battle field without much trouble which already gives him the upper hand. Like in his battle with Sasuke, he could had kept Sasuke subjugated the whole time. Now if he is able to pull that off against someone who have a natural innate ability as well as trained in the art in the area of genjutsu then why would it not be something to assume Minato will be victim to it? 

Many people have also commented on that fact that Itachi can be long distances and cast genjutsu on someone indicated that he doesn't even need to be in the vicinity or direct approach. Itachi is the only Uchiha in the manga shown to use genjutsu as means of confusing and usually as his first move. He is also noted of casting genjutsu while in mid fight of casting ninjutsu and taijutsu as he was able to keep Naruto subjugated while fighting Kakashi with his 30% powered clone. 

So like I said if no one can put a solid point of how Minato will defend against Itachi's genjutsu ability then you can't even say he touches him. Minato can not kill a mirage, all he will hear is when he feels his  heart given and his conscious fading, and crying UCHIHA ITACHI I stabbed you a 1000 times how? "You have been in my genjutsu since the start of the fight, I'm not even here I went home to watch Mad Men". Minato will look down and see his blood poured out at his with intestines laying out roped around his knees and shins with his Kunai dug in his gut from stabbing and scooping he had done to himself.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 6, 2013)

Lol at the people saying that Itachi was "forced" to use Magenkyou against Kakashi while convieniently ignoring Asuma, Kurenai, the fact that they were in enemy territory with reinforcements soon to arrive, etc. This argument is bull shit. Was Itachi also "forced" to use Magenkyou against Part 1 Sasuke too then? 



This is almost as shitty as the argument that if an Uchiha doesn't cast genjutsu on somebody then their opponent must be immune to genjutsu. Which would make Part 1 Naruto like the greatest anti-genjutsu ninja ever, to not even be effected by genjutsu while he stares unabashedly into Itachi's eyes.



Back to the match at hand, we know that Minato likes to look his opponent in the eyes, even when he thinks his opponent is Uchiha-freaking-Madara.



If that happens against Itachi, the greatest genjutsu user ever, in a match where CIS and PIS aren't in play, Minato will get genjutsu'd, and will most certainly die to a subsequent attack. While Minato would no doubt be able to break any of Itachi's genjutsu if given the time, and given knowledge of the fact that he was under a genjutsu in the first place, but he has neither of the two against Itachi.

Itachi does not give time to undo his genjutsu.



Itachi's genjutsu cannot be separated from reality.



Itachi can control the subjects very ninjutsu abilities while they are under his genjutsu.



All of the above points, backed by the manga, support the conclusion that once Minato looks Itachi in the eyes (and he will, if Minato vs Obito was any indication) the battle will essentially be over. Mind you, the above does not include Itachi's various other genjutsu casting methods, such as finger genjutsu and crow genjutsu that Minato can't even hope to claim reputation knowledge on.

Defensively, Itachi can simply replace himself with an exploding clone, dealing tremendous damage to the CQC-limited Minato while staying safe from attacks.



Having done so fast enough to fool EMS Sharingan and Perfect Sage Snake Senses enhanced by Nature Energy simultaneously, fooling Minato's eyes (perhaps while setting up Izanami at that) is definitely a given.



Reaction-wise, Itachi has reacted to and dodged attacks from perfect jinchuriki and perfect sages, neither of whom are currently being outstripped physically by Base (or even KCM) Minato.



So we've proven that Itachi has more than enough physical reflexes to more than keep up with Minato, and will almost certainly be able to land a genjutsu on him that will almost instantly end the match.

This victor of this matchup always has, and always will be, Itachi. It's not a question of wanking, Itachi simply has oodles and oodles more feats than Minato does.

While recent chapters don't seem to paint him in the "godly" light most people thought he would be painted in, Minato likely still has much more to show us until he, like Itachi, returns to the grave. Wait until those new feats to make a new thread.

But to be fair, the addition of KCM probably prevents most new feats from being applicable to his Base form, but even that may change. Simply express more paitence, Minato fans.

It's only a little longer till he solos.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Baraxio bein' an MVP like usual.​


Rocky said:


> This is nonsense; I never understood why the Raikage is a "dumbass" for what he did.



Running toward a grouping of seals, or a single seal in Obito's case, is basically the equivalent of staring down Itachi Sharingan. It's literally setting yourself up to be knocked down.​


Rocky said:


> He was the Hokage of the leaf. He probably knows what Genjutsu is, and that pain cancels it.



Pain doesn't cancel all genjutsu, as many genjutsu typically cause a lot of pain. Kurenai knew pain worked on that specific jutsu, unlike, say, Kisame, because it was her jutsu.​



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is because characters with reflexes far above Itachi and Bee (such as Obito [with his physical body] and A) couldn't react to it.



Part of reaction is foresight, which Bee had and A didn't. It's the difference between Minato almost being hit by A the first time, but casually evading the blitz the second time.

Obito doesn't have reflexes above Itachi. He just needs a smaller window  to use a jutsu instead of having to move out of the way, similar to Kakashi using Kamui on the Susano'o arrow.​


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Having done so fast enough to fool EMS Sharingan and Perfect Sage Snake Senses enhanced by Nature Energy simultaneously, fooling Minato's eyes (perhaps while setting up Izanami at that) is definitely a given.



Minato's feats put him above Kabuto & Sasuke in reflexes, regular eyes or not.

Sasuke couldn't visually perceive Ei, while Minato could. Kabuto's hasn't done anything on the level of reacting to a point-blank Ration Shunshin either. 



> Reaction-wise, Itachi has reacted to and dodged attacks from perfect jinchuriki and perfect sages, neither of whom are currently being outstripped physically by Base (or even KCM) Minato


.

Fighting 7% Naruto & Killer bee's Samehada swing do not even belong in the same _area code_ as physically perceiving and reacting to Max-Power Ei.

Even Kabuto was fast enough to literally bisect Itachi with a flank attack, and Minato's faster than the Raikage excels in those. 

Quick Chain: Sage Kabuto-Itachi-7% KCM Naruto-Bee < Ei < 100% KCM Naruto < Minato


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Kabuto's feat of cleanly dodging the Susano'o arrow easily puts him in Minato's reflex bracket, given that Kakashi couldn't physically move at all against the offense.

And Minato didn't visually perceive A until the last moment. Against Sauske, A went around Sasuke. Had he done that to Minato, then Minato would have lost sight of him just like Sasuke.

Similarly, Kabuto's bisection was A. not a blitz but a sneak attack and B. something Itachi intended for him to do in order to steal back Sasuke's sword and complete the loop.

Hence why Itachi showed no surprise or "!" by the sneak attack, lowered his Susano'o, and did what he needed to do.​


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kabuto's feat of cleanly dodging the Susano'o arrow easily puts him in Minato's reflex bracket, given that Kakashi couldn't physically move at all against the offense.
> 
> And Minato didn't visually perceive A until the last moment. Against Sauske, A went around Sasuke. Had he done that to Minato, then Minato would have lost sight of him just like Sasuke.​



Minato's reflexes > Kakashi and Kabuto's.


----------



## Epicpudding (Aug 6, 2013)

Minato stomps. Itachi doesn't have the speed to keep up with him, especially in base.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato literally perceived it, flicked a Kunai up _mid-flicker_ to set up for a counter attack, and finally jumped out of the way. Then, he used the Kunai he set up to nearly _blitz_ Ei himself.



That doesn't even make sense imo.

I always interpreted that as Minato teleporting to another kunai that was already in the tree while dropping the one in his hand, and then teleporting back to it once Ay stepped past it.

The kunai he arrives at doesn't have that little "wave" or whatever you want to call it that emerges around the tip right after it lands like all the other kunai did or like Minato's feet, and there would be no point in throwing the kunai when there are _already_ several all over the place. Plus regardless of his arm movements I have a hard time believing Minato's kunai would fly through the air and reach a tree several meters away before Ay's fist connected with Minato's face less than an inch away.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Minato's reflexes > Kakashi and Kabuto's.



Kakashi and Minato are roughly equal in reflexes. Kabuto is superior. Give Sage Kabuto or Sharingan Kakashi a mastery of Hiraishin and they'll react just as effectively to anything Minato's faced.​


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Running toward a grouping of seals, or a single seal in Obito's case, is basically the equivalent of staring down Itachi Sharingan. It's literally setting yourself up to be knocked down.​



There wouldn't have been a problem had Minato not been so ungodly fast. 

Obito didn't run into a group of seals. He attempted to grab Minato, whom promptly blitzed him in his interval using a thrown Kunai.

Ei figured Minato wouldn't have been able to react to his "My Sharingan can't follow!" speeds. But he did because Minato's better than the Sharingan. 

You can't call Ei's stupid for blitzing in, because 99% of the characters in this Manga die in Minato situation. 

Minato didn't just get the better of Ei with no-knowledge luck. Ei fought Minato many times, so Hiraishin was no secret to the Raikage. Yet considering that, Ei still thought of Minato of faster. Hmm, wonder why?



> Pain doesn't cancel all genjutsu, as many genjutsu typically cause a lot of pain. Kurenai knew pain worked on that specific jutsu, unlike, say, Kisame, because it was her jutsu.​



Usually intelligent people will try pain, rather than chill there. See Shikamaru vs. Tayuya.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You can't call Ei's stupid for blitzing in, because 99% of the characters in this Manga die in Minato situation.



Orochimaru could probably shake off 99% of genjutsu. That doesn't make him looking at Itachi's eyes any less stupid. And like your next point said, A _knew_ Minato's jutsu and reputation.​


Rocky said:


> Minato didn't just get the better of Ei with no-knowledge luck. Ei fought Minato many times, so Hiraishin was no secret to the Raikage. Yet considering that, Ei still thought of Minato of faster. Hmm, wonder why?



Are we arguing about Minato moving at v3 speed again? ​


Rocky said:


> Usually intelligent people will try pain, rather than chill there. See Shikamaru vs. Tayuya.



Then I amend my argument to Itachi recasting genjutsu until Minato bleeds to death from biting his lip. Checkmate. Seriously though, it still buys Itachi the time he needs to possibly win.​


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kabuto's feat of cleanly dodging the Susano'o arrow easily puts him in Minato's reflex bracket, given that Kakashi couldn't physically move at all against the offense.
> 
> And Minato didn't visually perceive A until the last moment. Against Sauske, A went around Sasuke. Had he done that to Minato, then Minato would have lost sight of him just like Sasuke.
> 
> ...


Let's not even forget that the version of Ei Sasuke lost track of was something like 15+ years older, 15+ years more fit and 15+ years more experienced than the Ei that last faced Minato.

And despite this, Sasuke was still able to activate an Enton shield over his Susano, meaning that had he the same access to Hirashin as Minato did, he would have just as easily avoided Ei's subsequent attack.

lol at people attempting to say that Itachi was "blitzed" by Kabuto when he says "I'm now going to deactivate my protective jutsu, Susano, and activate Izanami, a jutsu which requires my opponent to stab me with the very sword I'm carrying" and then deactivates Susano for seemingly no reason. Obviously, Itachi wanted to get hit in that scuffle; it's what he had to do in order to complete the loop.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> That doesn't even make sense imo.
> 
> I always interpreted that as Minato teleporting to another kunai that was already in the tree while dropping the one in his hand, and then teleporting back to it once Ay stepped past it.
> 
> The kunai he arrives at doesn't have that little "wave" or whatever you want to call it that emerges around the tip right after it lands like all the other kunai did or like Minato's feet, and there would be no point in throwing the kunai when there are _already_ several all over the place. Plus regardless of his arm movements I have a hard time believing Minato's kunai would fly through the air and reach a tree several meters away before Ay's fist connected with Minato's face less than an inch away.



You misunderstood my wording.


Raikage charges Minato

Minato flicks the Kunai above Ei's shoulder

Minato teleports to a Kunai on a tree

Minato teleports to the one above Ei's shoulder  for the counter attack



Notice how as Minato arrives (speed lines and all) at the tree with no Kunai in his hand, despite having it in his prior.

Also notice the Kunai above Ei's shoulder in the bottom panel.

The Anime actually matches what I think happened pretty well, so I'll use it only for clarification.

[YOUTUBE]ZHPHmpaeHGI[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 6, 2013)

Oh~, I thought you meant he did all of that with the same kunai. My bad. .


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru could probably shake off 99% of genjutsu. That doesn't make him looking at Itachi's eyes any less stupid. And like your next point said, A _knew_ Minato's jutsu and reputation.​



Ei has no other means of offense that work really. And as I said, Ei could never get the best of Minato in their other battles, despite knowing the mechanics of Hiraishin.



> Are we arguing about Minato moving at v3 speed again? ​



Nothing to argue about. It factually happened. 



> Then I amend my argument to Itachi recasting genjutsu until Minato bleeds to death from biting his lip. Checkmate. Seriously though, it still buys Itachi the time he needs to possibly win.​



Itachi dies from Chakra exhaustion before Minato bleeds to death from a lip cut.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 6, 2013)

Base Itachi is Pre Kakashi level. Minato curbstomps. Itachi is only strong because of the MS which he was given at birth basically.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 6, 2013)

WTF is this?  Minato stomps.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 6, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Base Itachi is Pre Kakashi level. Minato curbstomps. Itachi is only strong because of the MS which he was given at birth basically.


If 17 year old Base Itachi is Pre Kakashi level.

Then 11 year old Base Itachi is Orochimaru level.

Logically, 4 year old Base Itachi solos the Naruverse.


----------



## Sans (Aug 6, 2013)

Minato makes Itachi-chan his bitch.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 6, 2013)

Regarding knowledge, Itachi has an obvious advantage; his counterpart recognizes the name from Sasuke's confrontation - not elsewhere - making the match-up a tad fairer. In other words, Itachi is aware that Minato is the Yondaime Hokage, so he isn't going to take chances. 

If Itachi manages to place Minato within an illusion (early on), he should be able to snag the victory. Adversely, the latter can turn the tables into his favor by using a combination of Bunshin/Hiraishin. Such assaults will leave either opponent vulnerable.  

50/50


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 6, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> If 17 year old Base Itachi is Pre Kakashi level.
> 
> Then 11 year old Base Itachi is Orochimaru level.



13*yr old Itachi, but Orochimaru body was already frail and weak and he was looking for a new host. And Old Sarutobi > Edo Tensei + Orochimaru so thats not a big deal


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 6, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> 13*yr old Itachi, but Orochimaru body was already frail and weak and he was looking for a new host. And Old Sarutobi > Edo Tensei + Orochimaru so thats not a big deal


According to databook, Itachi is 17 when Part 1 starts. 



			
				Databook 1 said:
			
		

> Uchiha Itachi
> Ninja Registration Serial Number: 012110
> *Birthday: June 9th (17-years-old, Gemini)*
> Height: Unknown Weight: Unknown Blood Type: Unknown
> ...



In Part 1, Orochimaru left Akatsuki 7 years prior, due to his defeat at Itachi's hands.



3 years later in Part 2, Itachi is confirmed to be 21. 



			
				Databook 3 said:
			
		

> Ninja registration number: 012110
> *Birthday: 6/9 (21 years old, Gemini)*
> Height: 178.0cm - Weight: 58.0kg - Blood type: AB
> Personality: cares for his brother, self-sacrificing
> ...



Akatsuki again mentions that Orochimaru hasn't been a member since 10 years ago.



So Itachi must have been 10-11 years old when he trounced Orochimaru. If you have a problem, take it up with Kishi. 

Furthermore, when Orochimaru fights Hiruzen, he mentions that his current body was his second host. 



With each host having an average lifetime of 3 years or so, Orochimaru would likely have been in his original body 7 years ago when he was trounced by Itachi, and thus without any problem of his body rejecting him. It's probably also why he keeps the hand Itachi cut off, since it actually is his original hand. 



And said hand alone, without even being attached to Orochimaru, had such a ridiculous lifeforce it almost consumed Kabuto, while also making him infinitely stronger.



So apparently it _*is*_ a big deal.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

How strong was that Orochimaru? Is the the Orochimaru that got trashed by Hanzo, the current one, or something in between?


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> In between, obviously.



And that lands him where exactly...


----------



## Sans (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategos said:
			
		

> This message has been deleted by Strategoob. Reason: KOMNOMNOMNOMNOS is dead to me



Itachi defeating Minato without needing his Mangekyou is as hilarious as claiming that Minato has a personality.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Itachi defeating Minato without needing his Mangekyou is as hilarious as claiming that Minato has a personality.



I think you have a remarkably low threshold for "hilarious." 

It's mildly amusing at best.



Rocky said:


> And that lands him where exactly...



S-rank sex machine.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 6, 2013)




----------



## Sans (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I think you have a remarkably low threshold for "hilarious."
> 
> It's mildly amusing at best.



Maybe I am just naturally upbeat. 

Also I'm never going to see that GIF, my internet limit has been exceeded and I'm currently subjected to dial up speeds.


----------



## Kai (Aug 6, 2013)

I like how even with the most unreasonable stipulations outlined in OP, Minato vs. Itachi threads still end up talking about the same issues as an unrestricted thread (Hiraishin, MS, KCM, Edo, etc.)


----------



## Octavian (Aug 6, 2013)

I like how strat and rocky carried a 1 page thread to nearly 5 pages. perhaps we need to rename the battledome


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

5 pages yet I still didn't see a valid counter Minato have towards Itachi's versatility and mastery in the art of genjutsu. 

Itachi wins by default.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Octavian said:


> I like how strat and rocky carried a 1 page thread to nearly 5 pages. perhaps we need to rename the battledome



That wasn't even my final form.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 6, 2013)

Octavian said:


> I like how strat and rocky carried a 1 page thread to nearly 5 pages. perhaps we need to rename the battledome


Ey, I helped with my tl;dr posts too!


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 6, 2013)

Base Itachi is so underrated, he can easily take down top tier shinobi if they don't have knowledge or genjutsu defense against Itachi. These characters include Raikage, Minato, Jiraiya and Orochimaru. 

Minato vs Itachi match will always be down to genjutsu, you have a stronger argument for Tobirama but you don't for Minato. Both Hokage's are very similar character in ability, but one argument for Tobirama defending against Itachi's genjutsu than Minato's is stronger. As Tobirama defeated MS user and has extensive knowledge on Uchiha techs as well as experience of fighting them countlessly. This is the reason why me and many other people find Tobirama vs Itachi a very close match-up. But here I do not see Minato on the same tier as Itachi until he gets some solid genjutsu defensive feats. 

Base Itachi vs Minato is a closer match up then MS Itachi vs Minato.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Base Itachi is maaaad under-rated.. If Minato shows no feat against genjutsu then he is definitely not getting passed the greatest in that department.


----------



## ImSerious (Aug 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Minato makes Itachi-chan his bitch.



komnenos soloed the thread.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Aug 6, 2013)

People need to hop off Itachi's dick. Minato obviously stomps him with these restrictions. He could even defeat him without the restrictions.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> komnenos soloed the thread.



Solo is a trademark by Itachi, so anytime it's mention it puts credit in his account.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> People need to hop off Itachi's dick. Minato obviously stomps him with these restrictions. He could even defeat him without the restrictions.



How will Minato get past his genjutsu?


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Both Hokage's are very similar character in ability, but one argument for Tobirama defending against Itachi's genjutsu than Minato's is stronger.



Um



> As Tobirama defeated MS user







> and has extensive knowledge on Uchiha techs as well as experience of fighting them countlessly.



Minato should also have pretty extensive knowledge on the Uchiha, being Hokage of them and all.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Aug 6, 2013)

This...is still going on.


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 6, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> People need to hop off Itachi's dick. Minato obviously stomps him with these restrictions. He could even defeat him without the restrictions.



This.



Rocky said:


> Um
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also This.  

He doesn't need genjutsu feats!  He was one of the most brilliant ninjas to ever live!
Do you seriously think he doesn't know about the uchiha and their genjutsu?  Do you seriously think he doesn't have counters to genjutsu?


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 6, 2013)

Counters to genjutsu? Sure. Counters to genjutsu that he can use while in genjutsu (assuming he even realizes that he is in one) before getting shanked by Itachi? Pics plz.


----------



## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Counters to genjutsu? Sure. Counters to genjutsu that he can use while in genjutsu (assuming he even realizes that he is in one) before getting shanked by Itachi? Pics plz.



You conveniently cropped out the Kuani that Minato had just thrown and was looking at.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You conveniently cropped out the Kuani that Minato had just thrown and was looking at.



I'm pretty that's legit..it's plot no jutsu that obito didn't use genjutsu in that fight at that time


----------



## Rocky (Aug 7, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I'm pretty that's legit..it's plot no jutsu that obito didn't use genjutsu in that fight at that time



Obito wouldn't have been looking at Minato's eyes actually. He would've focused on Minato's torso, you know, what he was attempting to grab?


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I'm pretty that's legit..it's plot no jutsu that obito didn't use genjutsu in that fight at that time



No, its dick suck jutsu if you think itachi wins under these conditions.

Without restrictions it would be a good match though.  
MS is OP as hell!


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You conveniently cropped out the Kuani that Minato had just thrown and was looking at.


Because Minato has Byakugan and can look through people's heads, yeah.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 7, 2013)

Minato stomps with FTG unrestricted.

Every person that itachi has ever landed genjutsu on in the manga had either zero knowledge on his genjutsu (Kakashi, Deidara, Naruto), or were arrogant enough that they thought they could break it (orochimaru, bee, Sasuke).  

We see that when someone of the gokage class actually knows the basics of the sharingan (don't look into their eyes) and doesn't underestimate their opponent, it takes 5 susanoos and a distraction to get people like Ei into genjutsu, the same guy who gets blitzed by Minato's speed.

So genjutsu gg isn't happening against the fastest and most reflexive character in the manga, and hokage of the same village that housed the Uchiha clan.  

Minato throws his kunai and the blitzing begins.  Itachi can't deflect all 25 kunai if they are thrown simultaneously, and minato can just warp to deflected ones and throw them back while itachi's going to have to go hunting for his thrown weapons which is pretty much like having an easter egg hunt in a field of landmines (FTG kunais/tags).


----------



## Rocky (Aug 7, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Because Minato has Byakugan and can look through people's heads, yeah.



He was waiting for it to go completely through.


----------



## Baroxio (Aug 7, 2013)

Rocky said:


> He was waiting for it to go completely through.




Again, Minato has Byakugan now?


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Again, Minato has Byakugan now?



It is called physcis and timing.  
Velocity =distance / time.

This isn't a fluke that happened during one fight.

Have you ever played a sport?  You unconsciously make these calculations all the time.  In the ninja world created by the author this perception of space and time is taken to the extreme.

Besides, the 4th didn't necessarily need for the kunai to travel all the way through his head.   There was definitely some room for error considering his head wasn't even solid.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 7, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> Again, Minato has Byakugan now?



*Tobi's sharingan wasn't visible even if looking directly at it* (bottom right panel). 

So no, minato couldn't have been looking at his sharingan.  The only time sharingan users have ever caught people with knowledge on genjutsu have been due to some kind of distraction that shifts the opponent's attention away from the sharingan so that the sharingan user can make eyecontact.  Minato has hokage knowledge on the sharingan, is hailed as one of the smartest shinobi in the series, and is on another level than people like Ei who requires 5 susanoos and a distraction in order to get caught.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Can one of you Minato supporters and people that says Minato can counter genjutsu show a panel of such a feat.. If Kakashi with the sharingan and a member of the Anbu had no knowledge of Itachi's genjutsu then I doubt someone who died before Itachi was 7 years old do.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Can one of you Minato supporters and people that says Minato can counter genjutsu show a panel of such a feat.. If Kakashi with the sharingan and a member of the Anbu had no knowledge of Itachi's genjutsu then I doubt someone who died before Itachi was 7 years old do.



Kakashi didn't have knowledge on Tsukuyomi, something that itachi doesn't possess in this thread, and even if Itachi did have it, it wouldn't matter since the only reason Kakashi was hit with the tech was because he had the sharingan and thus thought he'd be able to fight off or resist Itachi's genjutsu.  Because Kakashi thought that, he looked itachi right in the eyes.

Minato doesn't have the sharingan, so he's going to play by the same rules as everyone who doesn't have one plays by: don't look at the opponent's eyes.

Minato's ability to break genjutsu after he's caught in it is a different story if that's what you mean by counter it.  However, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence", it's a lovely quote that one of the most avid itachi supporters touts all the time, and would apply to any character who lacks ANY genjutsu breaking feats whether good or bad.


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Can one of you Minato supporters and people that says Minato can counter genjutsu show a panel of such a feat.. If Kakashi with the sharingan and a member of the Anbu had no knowledge of Itachi's genjutsu then I doubt someone who died before Itachi was 7 years old do.



Yah, obviously if there is no evidence, then that in itself is evidence that he doesn't possess that ability.  

Failed logic sir.

Especially, considering all the other things we know about this character!
He is portrayed as one of the smartest and strongest shinobi to ever live, but the lack of a panel proves he was a complete dud at genjutsu!   Why a genin could walk up and trap him in genjutsu!  LOL!


----------



## Trojan (Aug 7, 2013)

Even IF Minato was looking at obito's sharingan, he did not fall in a genjutsu, and that's what does
matter. @@


----------



## Ersa (Aug 7, 2013)

I thought this was Base Itachi vs Base Minato without Hiraishin.

Without Susanoo despite his good reflexes he'll eventually get tagged and bombarded with Liger Bomb level Rasengan. Minato takes this quite easily.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> According to databook, Itachi is 17 when Part 1 starts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Rocky said:


> How strong was that Orochimaru? Is the the Orochimaru that got trashed by Hanzo, the current one, or something in between?



It was a younger, healthier, aka "prime" Orochimaru


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was a younger, healthier, aka "prime" Orochimaru



That is a nice plot hole you found.  We know itachi was over 17 when he teamed up with orochimaru though.

Orochimaru screwed up and looked in his eyes.


----------



## Tengu (Aug 7, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> I'm pretty that's legit..it's plot no jutsu that obito didn't use genjutsu in that fight at that time



Well Obito was controlling the Kiuuby then, so maybe he couldn't cast another genjutsu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> That is a nice plot hole you found.  We know itachi was over 17 when he teamed up with orochimaru though.
> 
> Orochimaru screwed up and looked in his eyes.





what ? 

Itachi was 18 when he first made appereance in part 1.

By the end of part 1, during the akatsuki gathering it was stated that Orochimaru left the organization 7 years ago. 
Databook(and Orochimaru) says Oro left the organization after getting his shit torn apart by Itachi.

So the math tells us that Itachi ripped Oro a new one when he was 11.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Part of reaction is foresight, which Bee had and A didn't. It's the difference between Minato almost being hit by A the first time, but casually evading the blitz the second time.
> 
> Obito doesn't have reflexes above Itachi. He just needs a smaller window  to use a jutsu instead of having to move out of the way, similar to Kakashi using Kamui on the Susano'o arrow.​



That foresight is your speculation, when Minato teleported, we already saw Bee in that particular position. Then we saw Minato taking the time to talk to A, giving Bee even more time to do what he needed to. Itachi won't be given such time to do anything, just like Obito (someone with superior Sharingan skill) learnt the hard way.

Actually, forcing the Yellow Flash to use Hiraishin in a battle of speed (A is the only other character whose has done that) would lead one to infer that Obito's reflexes are far above Itachi's. 

In a battle setting when Itachi can't even react to Sasuke's stabs, then he's not going to react to Hiraishin. Unless like Bee, Minato spends some time chatting, giving Itachi some time to do something.


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> what ?
> 
> Itachi was 18 when he first made appereance in part 1.
> 
> ...



Ahh, you can't be serious right? 
He was with orochimaru, because he joined the akatsuki, which happened after he left the village.

stabs

He obviously wasn't 11.


EDIT:
I found the error.

In Part 1, Orochimaru left Akatsuki 7 years prior, due to his defeat at Itachi's hands.

*Sasuke was only about 7 years old when 17 year old Itachi killed the clan, and left the village
This akatsuki meeting transpired when Naruto/Sasuke were genin at the age of about 13.
That means Itachi was 21.*


3 years later in Part 2, Itachi is confirmed to be 21. 

Akatsuki again mentions that Orochimaru hasn't been a member since 10 years ago.

*Sasuke killed Orochimaru when he was 16!
That is 3 years later, thus Itachi is 24 at the time of his death!*


"After Itachi massacred the clan, Sasuke's ideals and personality changed drastically due to him suffering his clan's curse and became cold, indifferent, cruel, cynical, somewhat arrogant, unreasonable and devoted the next* nine years* of his life to kill Itachi"
current


----------



## kupochan (Aug 7, 2013)

so before it was 50/50 with healthy ms itachi vs base minato

next it was 50/50 with kcm minato

now its 50/50 with no ms itachi vs base minato

love these double standards...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> Ahh, you can't be serious right?
> He was with orochimaru, because he joined the akatsuki, which happened after he left the village.
> 
> (2)
> ...


I don't watch the anime, I think you shouldn't either. 



> EDIT:
> I found the error.
> 
> In Part 1, Orochimaru left Akatsuki 7 years prior, due to his defeat at Itachi's hands.
> ...


*
Itachi was 13 when he killed the clan. Sasuke was 8.

I suggest you start reading the manga before you partake in Battledome discussions.*


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't watch the anime, I think you shouldn't either.
> 
> 
> Itachi was 13 when he killed the clan. Sasuke was 8.
> ...



He killed the clan at 13.
That is completely idiotic...but ok, lets go with that.
He kills the whole clan at 1 somehow, I guess with magic jutsu. 
But 2 years prior to leaving the village he joined Akatsuki, and defeated Orchimaru at 11?  Defeated a Sannin at 11, yah that makes sense!  But what was he doing on a mission in the Akatsuki with Orochimaru 2 years prior to actually abandoning the leaf?

ROFL!!  Ok, yah that is enough derp.

The anime clearly shows them as both adults in akatsuki uniforrms.

Here it is the same scene in the manga,
Tallest 11 year old asian ever!  Doesn't grow but a couple inches in a decade afterwards though... Seems kinda odd huh?  Derp...
(2)


↑ Naruto chapter 225, page 21 

" After Itachi massacred the clan, Sasuke's ideals and personality changed drastically due to him suffering his clan's curse and became cold, indifferent, cruel, cynical, somewhat arrogant, unreasonable and devoted the next nine years of his life to kill Itachi.[11]"

Sasuke killed both Orochimaru and Itachi within a few months of each other.
If it took 9 years for him to get his revenge, then he was 8 years old at the time.

"Itachi enrolled in ANBU half a year later, and became captain by 13."
Naruto chapter 142, page 12

Part I: 17-18 
Part II: 21 

He was 17-18 when he killed his clan.
When we first see him in Akatsuki he was 21, but shippuden happened 3 years later, and he was 24.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This is just...no. Itachi was dominating that fight and Kakashi acknowledged his own limitations after Itachi pointed them out.



Stop smoking weed. It dulls your mind

1. Itachi was on the offensive and FAILED at every turn to land an attack on Kakashi. Your argument is like saying that if a boxer is the more aggressive one while not landing a single punch, he is dominating a fight 

Since you people don't read the manga, I will show you what happened. Itachi talks shit about how he is going to defeat them in no time unlike Kisame. He attacks and FAILS. So, he decides to wank to Kakashi and attack him from behind like a bitch. But guess what? He fails again! So Kisame wanks Kakashi. Kakashi has to carry dead weight Kurenai. So, Itachi says oh shoot since I can't beat you with base skills since they suck, I will show you the MS. 

So now go ahead and show the part where Itachi was "dominating" in base form. All I saw was him failing and Kisame wanking to Kakashi. Do you need me to show the other fight between them where Kakashi schooled Base Itachi?



Nikushimi said:


> Tsukuyomi was only employed to expedite the inevitable because Itachi wanted to get out of there quickly without causing a ruckus.



 Maybe you should read the manga sometime instead of fanfiction. Itachi told them before the fight started that unlike Kisame he would defeat them in no time. Yet when he failed, he praised Kakashi's sharingan and decided to show him the MS



Nikushimi said:


> It wasn't until after the timeskip that Kakashi was able to present anything resembling a real threat to Itachi. And then we found out the Itachi he was fighting was only a 30% copy of the original.



I was talking about BASE Itachi not MS Itachi. That guy was about the same level of Part I Kakashi and definitely below Part II Kakashi. So, as I said just about the same level as Asuma



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi without MS is far beyond "Asuma-level"; the guy had Orochimaru bent over his knee when he was still learning to shave.



He cut Orochimaru's hand. So what? Asuma could do that with his fuuton trick as well. That trick almost cut Kisame's head. So, again they are on the same level



Nikushimi said:


> Part I Kakashi couldn't even throw a punch in that guy's presence; forget Asuma.



Funny because Asuma threw more than a punch against Kisame and was ready to take on Itachi. So, your argument is ... 



Nikushimi said:


> Anyway, this isn't as bad as people are saying; Killer B could damage Minato in a mutual strike before he was able to escape with Hiraishin after he gained knowledge of the Jutsu. Minato does win, but Itachi can put up a fight briefly and it'll take a bit more work on Minato's part to get around his guard.



Sorry but Kirabi and Base Minato are not even comparable. 



Nikushimi said:


> If Minato isn't aggressive about removing Itachi from the fight, he runs the risk of ending up in Izanami, which is not an MS Jutsu and therefore isn't restricted.



Good one. I need a good laugh


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2013)

Base Itachi felt that he needed to use the MS when part 1 Kakashi kept up with his base form. When Itachi was forced to remain in his base (due to the Shouten jutsu), he was outsmarted by Kakashi. The difference between the battles was that Itachi couldn't resort to the MS during the latter battle. As such, you can reasonably infer that base Itachi can't beat Kakashi. 

We've also seen base Itachi vs Hebi Sasuke. In a cave, that battle ended very shortly. Within Genjutsu (which, aside from crows and fading images, wasn't different to their real capabilities), we saw Sasuke beat base Itachi. 
Outside Genjutsu, we saw Hebi Sasuke easily keep up with Itachi... he _forced_ Itachi to resort to the MS (then on Itachi went through MS jutsu shortly).

In fact a serious Killer B got base Itachi to run and forced him to use the MS.

This gives us an idea of base Itachi's level. Being really honest with ourselves, it isn't going to be worth much against base Minato. Base Minato who was able to keep up with the likes of Ei and MS Obito.
Further, comparing their overall capabilities (in their base forms), it is pretty clear that Minato wins fairly easily given that when Itachi was fighting stronger foes (Kakashi level+), he would try to opt for the MS asap. Whereas Minato was able to overcome strong foes with his base form, the only time he needed to use a form was when he was facing the ultimate power in this manga (the Juubi).


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Bee was in that position before Minato teleported. It is worth noting Minato took the time to speak to A, which gave Bee extra time to do things. Something Itachi can't do.



Killer B also reacted to Minato coming out of Hiraishin to stab A by blocking him with a Hachibi tentacle, and if you're going to add the requirement that Itachi must be "in position" in advance, Itachi is perfectly capable of getting into position in advance, provided he knows where the tag is.



> Now the "Itachi reacted to Hiraishin" will become a laughable argument, if it is going to be taken seriously. This is because characters with reflexes far above Itachi and Bee (such as Obito [with his physical body] and A) couldn't react to it.



Except Obito is not faster than Itachi or B...and Raikage suggested that he could react to Hiraishin (his plan was to look for the kunai Minato jumped to the next time and literally blitz him).



> How is Itachi could to tell which kunai Minato's going to teleport to? Further, what is _base_ Itachi going to be able to do about it? Bearing in mind Minato can freely choose when to teleport, and to which marked location... whilst considering Minato's speed.



Maybe attempt a mutual-stab like Killer B, if he is "in position" or whatever you want to call it.

All I'm saying is he's not totally helpless. I don't expect him to win, though.



Elite Uchiha said:


> Base Itachi is Pre Kakashi level. Minato curbstomps.



Base Itachi is far, far above pre-timeskip or even post-timeskip base Kakashi.



> Itachi is only strong because of the MS which he was given at birth basically.



Uh...no. Itachi was considered "strong" well before he got MS, which he didn't activate until he was 12.



Elite Uchiha said:


> 13*yr old Itachi, but Orochimaru body was already frail and weak and he was looking for a new host.



There is nothing in the encounter that suggests that.



> And Old Sarutobi > Edo Tensei + Orochimaru so thats not a big deal



Sarutobi himself admitted otherwise and the outcome reflects this. I have no idea where you got the idea that the guy who lost was stronger.



Rocky said:


> How strong was that Orochimaru? Is the the Orochimaru that got trashed by Hanzo, the current one, or something in between?



Basically the same as the current one; had both his arms, had white snake powers, had Fushi Tensei, had already switched bodies at least once...



ueharakk said:


> and is on another level than people like Ei *who requires 5 susanoos and a distraction in order to get caught*.



This isn't true at all, so I really wish people would stop using this argument. A looked directly into Sasuke's Sharingan during their fight and basically told him to suck a dick because his Genjutsu wasn't good enough; it was totally by luck that he didn't get caught in Madara's Genjutsu earlier, same with any of the other Kage.



TorJaN said:


> Even IF Minato was looking at obito's sharingan, he did not fall in a genjutsu, and that's what does
> matter. @@



So am I the only one who has considered the possibility that Obito can't cast Genjutsu while he is fazing his body to the other side (which makes sense, given that he's pushing his body into another plane of existence entirely)?



Senjuclan said:


> Stop smoking weed. It dulls your mind



I can see that.



> 1. Itachi was on the offensive and FAILED at every turn to land an attack on Kakashi. Your argument is like saying that if a boxer is the more aggressive one while not landing a single punch, he is dominating a fight



Except Itachi landed some of his punches and Kakashi was on the ropes with his arms over his face; Suigadan was blocked and the clone explosion scored a direct hit. And then Kakashi was the one showing signs of fatigue for it. That IS dominating a fight.



> Since you people don't read the manga, I will show you what happened. Itachi talks shit about how he is going to defeat them in no time unlike Kisame. He attacks and FAILS. So, he decides to wank to Kakashi and attack him from behind like a bitch. But guess what? He fails again! So Kisame wanks Kakashi. Kakashi has to carry dead weight Kurenai. So, Itachi says oh shoot since I can't beat you with base skills since they suck, I will show you the MS.



That's funny, because Asuma commented on Itachi's strength and then Kakashi is the one who ended up hyping Itachi further after all of that.



> So now go ahead and show the part where Itachi was "dominating" in base form. All I saw was him failing and Kisame wanking to Kakashi.



That's because you've chosen to ignore the fact that Kakashi was forced to block Suigadan and took a direct hit from Bunshin Bakuha. You've also conveniently neglected to acknowledge that he was the one visibly distressed after the exchange.



> Do you need me to show the other fight between them where Kakashi schooled Base Itachi?



A 30% base Itachi...who Kakashi fooled with a clone feint for literally a few seconds before Itachi _figured it out himself_. Kakashi didn't actually do anything to Itachi in that fight; it was Naruto who landed the finishing blow while Itachi was distracted and Kakashi was climbing out of a hole in the ground.



> Maybe you should read the manga sometime instead of fanfiction. Itachi told them before the fight started that unlike Kisame he would defeat them in no time. Yet when he failed, he praised Kakashi's sharingan and decided to show him the MS



Showing the MS was Itachi's way of finishing Kakashi quickly. He made good on his promise.



> I was talking about BASE Itachi not MS Itachi. That guy was about the same level of Part I Kakashi and definitely below Part II Kakashi. So, as I said just about the same level as Asuma



Except base Itachi>Shouten Itachi>/=base part II Kakashi>part I Kakashi.



> He cut Orochimaru's hand. So what? Asuma could do that with his fuuton trick as well. That trick almost cut Kisame's head. So, again they are on the same level



Part I Kakashi couldn't even get his Raikiri up to attack Orochimaru and you are seriously suggesting Asuma will do it with Hien? No. He will poop his pants and subconsciously admit defeat before they have even fought. Assuming he did somehow muster the courage to attack, Orochimaru would just dodge it and spit Kusanagi through him.



> Funny because Asuma threw more than a punch against Kisame and was ready to take on Itachi. So, your argument is ...



Asuma was losing to Kisame in a CQC fight (not even counting Kisame's heavier Ninjutsu arsenal), and if you honestly think he could've done anything to Itachi, your reading comprehension is terrible.



> Sorry but Kirabi and Base Minato are not even comparable.



Yeah they are, actually; Killer B stopped Minato's attack after Hiraishin and could've landed one before he teleported away. Itachi was shown to be on par with Killer B's speed and is much smarter, so he can do the same things.



> Good one. I need a good laugh



Re-read what you just posted. That should do the trick.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

MS Itachi is Hebi Sasuke level. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Base Itachi felt that he needed to use the MS when part 1 Kakashi kept up with his base form. When Itachi was forced to remain in his base (due to the Shouten jutsu), he was outsmarted by Kakashi.



I wish people would stop saying this, because it's wrong. Tricking someone with a clone feint does not make a shinobi more intelligent than his/her opponent; ANYONE can do something without another person's awareness and then take advantage of the fact that they don't know about it.

Itachi isn't a mind-reader and there were other ninja on the battlefield that he had to worry about. It's not really surprising or even particularly remarkable that Kakashi managed to swap out under the cover of a Ninjutsu (something he did when he fought Itachi back in part I already), given especially when you bother to acknowledge the fact that Itachi saw through it within moments.



> The difference between the battles was that Itachi couldn't resort to the MS during the latter battle. As such, you can reasonably infer that base Itachi can't beat Kakashi.



That's not true at all.

Either one can beat the other depending on how they use their Jutsu, although I would argue Itachi's Jutsu are stronger and can be executed faster.



> We've also seen base Itachi vs Hebi Sasuke. In a cave, that battle ended very shortly.



That was a Karasu Bunshin... Besides the obvious chakra split, Itachi was not even trying to fight Sasuke there. Sasuke was never able to blitz the real Itachi like that.



> Within Genjutsu (which, aside from crows and fading images, wasn't different to their real capabilities), we saw Sasuke beat base Itachi.



We also saw the opposite happen, too, and a clear difference in the effort Itachi put forth both times.



> Outside Genjutsu, we saw Hebi Sasuke easily keep up with Itachi... he _forced_ Itachi to resort to the MS (then on Itachi went through MS jutsu shortly).



Of course Hebi Sasuke could "keep up" with Itachi, but that's all he could do; Itachi dodged nearly all of his shit even after Tsukuyomi messed up his coordination and he took a piece of shrapnel to the thigh.



> In fact a serious Killer B got base Itachi to run



Given the fact that they were fighting physically and Killer B is on par with Kisame in that respect, it's still impressive that Itachi was able to get out of that exchange without taking damage.



> and forced him to use the MS.



Edo Itachi used MS on his own initiative from a safe distance, actually. He was trying to activate Kotoamatsukami, hence his "Let's see what happens..." line.



> This gives us an idea of base Itachi's level. Being really honest with ourselves, it isn't going to be worth much against base Minato. Base Minato who was able to keep up with the likes of Ei and MS Obito.



Base Itachi could keep up with A if A didn't immediately resort to his best Shunshin and would have no trouble keeping up with Obito either (base Gai did).



> Further, comparing their overall capabilities (in their base forms), it is pretty clear that Minato wins fairly easily given that when Itachi was fighting stronger foes (Kakashi level+), he would try to opt for the MS asap. Whereas Minato was able to overcome strong foes with his base form, the only time he needed to use a form was when he was facing the ultimate power in this manga (the Juubi).



That...entire argument doesn't really hold any water, given that Itachi never used MS against Orochimaru (as far as we saw) in their first encounter, nor against Killer B, nor against KCM Naruto (except to activate Kotoamatsukami after fighting him in base form), and the Juubi (or its current Jinchuuriki) is far above Minato's level with or without Hiraishin.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> MS Itachi is Hebi Sasuke level. I'll leave it at that.



That's...

That's just dumb and objectively wrong.

Obito stated Itachi could've beaten Hebi Sasuke if he had actually wanted to. Once Susano'o came out, Sasuke couldn't do anything at all.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's...
> 
> That's just dumb and objectively wrong.
> 
> Obito stated Itachi could've beaten Hebi Sasuke if he had actually wanted to. Once Susano'o came out, Sasuke couldn't do anything at all.



Implying that the same level means you can't be the opponent. Itachi was pushed to Susanoo against the weak ass Hebi Sasuke. My point still stands.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 7, 2013)

> So am I the only one who has considered the possibility that Obito can't cast Genjutsu while he is fazing his body to the other side (which makes sense, given that he's pushing his body into another plane of existence entirely)?



he only teleport the part that will be hit if he did not teleport it, not his entire body!
and he kept the bijuus under his control even when he used Kamui.


----------



## DemonicAvenger (Aug 7, 2013)

How is a restricted Itachi going to win this? Minato Mid-Diff.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Killer B also reacted to Minato coming out of Hiraishin to stab A by blocking him with a Hachibi tentacle, and if you're going to add the requirement that Itachi must be "in position" in advance, Itachi is perfectly capable of getting into position in advance, provided he knows where the tag is.



Look again: Bee hit _after_ Minato touched A with Hiraishin. He didn't get there _before_ Minato teleported.

Itachi isn't capable of getting into position in advance, considering he wouldn't know where and when Minato will teleport. Further, Minato's speed makes it hard for Itachi to do much.



> Except Obito is not faster than Itachi or B...and Raikage suggested that he could react to Hiraishin (his plan was to look for the kunai Minato jumped to the next time and literally blitz him).



Bee is arguable. Raikage is obvious. Itachi you purely speculated; Itachi has not given us any reason to think he's faster/fast as base Minato or MS Obito. 
Now I can say Obito is faster than Itachi given that he forced a shinobi whose known for being fast (Minato) to use teleportation in the battle of speed. Thus Obito>Itachi in speed makes sense.

Whereas it seems that you've simply said Itachi>Obito in speed, just 'cause. Hence it comes across as a weak and unsupported point.

As such MS Obito remains a good measure to establish that shinobi who're close to Minato's base speed (which is faster than Itachi) can't react against Hiraishin.
Now Jubito is another story altogether considering he was able to attack faster than _KCM_ Minato could react. Even he couldn't physically react to Hiraishin.


*Spoiler*: _New Chapter Spoilers_ 



If Jubito of all people couldn't react, then the very significantly slower Itachi won't be able to.




The Raikage believed he could hit Minato if he saw the kunai, true. However this is irrelevant in the case of Itachi, seeing as Itachi is significantly slower than A.



> Maybe attempt a mutual-stab like Killer B, if he is "in position" or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> All I'm saying is he's not totally helpless. I don't expect him to win, though.



A mutual stab if Itachi remains in position, and Minato decides to chat as opposed to kill right away... that's how it was with Killer Bee.

And I'm saying Itachi has no way to react against Hiraishin. In fact thinking about it now, I don't see why the Itachi side even things Bee is a good measure for how Itachi would do. I say this because you can easily argue that Bee is much faster than Itachi, using that very "reacted to Hiraishin" example that's being used to support Itachi.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I wish people would stop saying this, because it's wrong. Tricking someone with a clone feint does not make a shinobi more intelligent than his/her opponent; ANYONE can do something without another person's awareness and then take advantage of the fact that they don't know about it.
> 
> Itachi isn't a mind-reader and there were other ninja on the battlefield that he had to worry about. It's not really surprising or even particularly remarkable that Kakashi managed to swap out under the cover of a Ninjutsu (something he did when he fought Itachi back in part I already), given especially when you bother to acknowledge the fact that Itachi saw through it within moments.
> 
> ...



Except, nothing you've said is actually applied to the battles I reference. Furthermore, your point mainly weakens due to heavy speculation on your side which derives very little from evidence in its entirety. 
For example, you assume Itachi would keep up with A if he didn't use his best Shunshin with no support whatsoever. Another example: you assume KCM Naruto and Bee were going all out, despite heavy evidence to the contrary. Thus at most you proved that base Itachi is enough for a restricted KCM Naruto and Bee. The MS only activated as Itachi's out of control body felt pressed by the situation to use the MS. 

As for Orochimaru, I doubt Minato is going to casually underestimate his foe and look him in the eye. Orochimaru's skirmish was a mistake on his end, not necessarily a reflection of their abilities compared to one-another. 

Jubito is far above Minato, I agree. However I merely pointed out that Kakashi level shinobi and above can press Itachi to use the MS. Whereas it takes Rikudou-Juubi level foes to force Minato to use KCM.
Showing how strong each base form is; apparently Minato's is stronger.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Kakashi didn't have knowledge on Tsukuyomi, something that itachi doesn't possess in this thread, and even if Itachi did have it, it wouldn't matter since the only reason Kakashi was hit with the tech was because he had the sharingan and thus thought he'd be able to fight off or resist Itachi's genjutsu.  Because Kakashi thought that, he looked itachi right in the eyes.
> 
> Minato doesn't have the sharingan, so he's going to play by the same rules as everyone who doesn't have one plays by: don't look at the opponent's eyes.
> 
> Minato's ability to break genjutsu after he's caught in it is a different story if that's what you mean by counter it.  However, "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence", it's a lovely quote that one of the most avid itachi supporters touts all the time, and would apply to any character who lacks ANY genjutsu breaking feats whether good or bad.


Even if Minato does not look in Itachi eyes, Itachi is so advance that he can cast a genjutsu anyway. Also if you notice Minato is not necessarily the sharpest tool in the box, he moves mostly on instinct and does not possess a level of intellect close to this Uchiha he is facing. 

Also Obito does not use genjutsu for battle, nor do Sasuke, and even Madara does not use it as a means in battle. Itachi does however which is why he showcases the most proficient hax use with it. People can't even distinguish reality from his illusions. Also where do people get the idea that without Susano'o Itachi is not defensively sound? He never gets touched, anytime he did they were a clone or an illusion which is why I am betting more likely than not when Minato does touch something physical from Itachi it will end his life. 

Fact is if you can't provide evidence of Minato being able to counter genjutsu or escape it, then he definitely does not have a ghost of a chance of beating Itachi. His technique Haraishin will be witnessed and all it's mechanism and weaknessed will be deduced. 





FairyTailisBack said:


> Yah, obviously if there is no evidence, then that in itself is evidence that he doesn't possess that ability.
> 
> Failed logic sir.
> 
> ...



He doesn't possess the ability until it has been shown as a feat. Failed logic is saying Minato will just Haraishin GG Itachi when it can just be a mirage the whole fight. 

Actually Minato is not one of the smartest shinobi to ever live and have not been portrayed as so.. Read the Manga. Even if he is, he definitely have not show the level of intelligence and strategy Itachi have shown. Itachi outclasses him on strategic fortitude and the fact he is the best at illusions. Just because you fast doesn't mean you can hit the target.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Implying that the same level means you can't be the opponent. Itachi was pushed to Susanoo against the weak ass Hebi Sasuke. My point still stands.



Hebi Sasuke isn't weak at all. And once Susano'o was activated, Itachi did not just have Sasuke "beat"; he was on a totally different level from Sasuke. There was literally no chance for Sasuke to win at that point nor even a fight. I'll grant you that identifying people by level is a subjective assessment, but if you are going to put them on the same level, then you're allowing for a very broad definition of the range.



TorJaN said:


> he only teleport the part that will be hit if he did not teleport it, not his entire body!
> and he kept the bijuus under his control even when he used Kamui.



Minato's kunai fazed right through Obito's face, bro. Even if it was only partial-Kamui, that's the part with the Sharingan in it. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Look again: Bee hit _after_ Minato touched A with Hiraishin. He didn't get there _before_ Minato teleported.



I didn't say otherwise; the important thing is that he stopped the attack.



> Itachi isn't capable of getting into position in advance, considering he wouldn't know where and when Minato will teleport. Further, Minato's speed makes it hard for Itachi to do much.



If he knows where the tag is, he can definitely get into position in advance, provided Minato hasn't gone there yet.



> Bee is arguable. Raikage is obvious. Itachi you purely speculated; Itachi has not given us any reason to think he's faster/fast as base Minato or MS Obito.
> Now I can say Obito is faster than Itachi given that he forced a shinobi whose known for being fast (Minato) to use teleportation in the battle of speed. Thus Obito>Itachi in speed makes sense.



Not really, because Itachi is also a fast shinobi like Minato (perfect 5 in the databook); Hiraishin is what puts Minato at the top of the food chain.

Obito was shown to be on par with the likes of Kakashi and Gai; his speed is about the same as Itachi's. It's not really speculation when you have two guys with virtually the same exact speed as Itachi keeping up with Obito. In contrast, it IS speculation to assume Obito is faster simply because he forced an opponent "known for being fast" to teleport, as there is no way to guage the feat on merits relative to any other known quantity.



> Whereas it seems that you've simply said Itachi>Obito in speed, just 'cause. Hence it comes across as a weak and unsupported point.



Itachi=Kakashi=Gai=Obito, as demonstrated in their fights with each other. I didn't bother pointing it out at the time, but that doesn't mean it's unsupported; they've all displayed physical movement and reaction times comparable with each other's over the course of the manga. Kakashi was matched with Shouten Itachi in their engagement at the beginning of part II; Kakashi and Obito were matched more recently. Base Gai held his own against Obito using his Soushuuga; Kisame (who is slower than Itachi) kept up with Gai; Kisame also kept up with Killer B, who is someone Itachi fought and kept up with directly. Killer B, in turn, has kept up with both A and Minato, albeit to a limited extent and with proven ways for them to get around his guard.

There's really no reason to underestimate Itachi here, particularly after I said he isn't going to win anyway.



> As such MS Obito remains a good measure to establish that shinobi who're close to Minato's base speed (which is faster than Itachi) can't react against Hiraishin.



Except there is nothing which suggests Minato's base speed is faster than Itachi's. Killer B was matched with it and Itachi was matched with Killer B.



> Now Jubito is another story altogether considering he was able to attack faster than _KCM_ Minato could react. Even he couldn't physically react to Hiraishin.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _New Chapter Spoilers_
> ...



Juubito was taken from behind in both instances with a tag placed on his body; the same thing would happen to Itachi, but Minato has to get a tag on him first, which is not as easy as teleporting to one that is already there.



> The Raikage believed he could hit Minato if he saw the kunai, true. However this is irrelevant in the case of Itachi, seeing as Itachi is significantly slower than A.



Not relevant to my point; you said A couldn't react to Hiraishin and I was stating why I disagreed with that. It had nothing to do with Itachi, this time.



> A mutual stab if Itachi remains in position, and Minato decides to chat as opposed to kill right away... that's how it was with Killer Bee.



Killer B also didn't realize he had been tagged and was able to threaten Minato once he did; it would be the same for Itachi. Now, if Minato caught Itachi off-guard with a tag he didn't know was there, just like he did to Killer B, that would be a different story. But that is outside the conditions I specified initially.



> And I'm saying Itachi has no way to react against Hiraishin. In fact thinking about it now, I don't see why the Itachi side even things Bee is a good measure for how Itachi would do. I say this because you can easily argue that Bee is much faster than Itachi, using that very "reacted to Hiraishin" example that's being used to support Itachi.



Except we saw B and Itachi fight, so we know B isn't "much faster"; they were shown to react to each other's attacks and move at the same pace pretty casually.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except, nothing you've said is actually applied to the battles I reference. Furthermore, your point mainly weakens due to heavy speculation on your side which derives very little from evidence in its entirety.



How would you know my "side" derives very little from evidence if I didn't explain my position at all until just now? You're prematurely dismissing it; you didn't even bother to ask me for evidence before you jumped right into accusing my argument of not having any- which would be weird if true, because I never just make up arguments without a basis and you've known me long enough to know that.



> For example, you assume Itachi would keep up with A if he didn't use his best Shunshin with no support whatsoever.



I didn't give any support; I just assumed you had read the parts of the manga wherein Suigetsu and Juugo blocked A when he was not using Shunshin, Sasuke landed a Chidori on his chest, and B hit him with a Lariat. I didn't feel like I needed to support that point because I assumed everyone by this point understood that A's speed without Shunshin is on the same level as Itachi and B's.



> Another example: you assume KCM Naruto and Bee were going all out, despite heavy evidence to the contrary. Thus at most you proved that base Itachi is enough for a restricted KCM Naruto and Bee.



What "heavy evidence"? All I can see is KCM Naruto and B attacking Itachi and Itachi holding his own. So yes, I would assume that they were going all-out; I can't imagine a good reason for B to attack Itachi from behind and only half-ass it...and even if I could imagine one, I wouldn't argue it without some kind of indication from the source material, which I don't see anywhere.



> The MS only activated as Itachi's out of control body felt pressed by the situation to use the MS.



Neither Naruto nor B were attacking Itachi at the time when he activated MS, so you're going to have to explain to me what "pressed" him; I don't see it. For that matter, even if they did press him, so what? We're talking about Killer B and KCM Naruto; they aren't exactly pushovers. The important thing is that they did not immediately overtake him before he used MS.



> As for Orochimaru, I doubt Minato is going to casually underestimate his foe and look him in the eye. Orochimaru's skirmish was a mistake on his end, not necessarily a reflection of their abilities compared to one-another.



Granted, but Minato's given us no indication that he's trained for fighting while avoiding eye-contact. Hiraishin may or may not be all the protection he needs from Genjutsu; either way, as I keep repeating, I never expected Itachi to win this one way or another without an extremely careless mistake on Minato's part.



> Jubito is far above Minato, I agree. However I merely pointed out that Kakashi level shinobi and above can press Itachi to use the MS. Whereas it takes Rikudou-Juubi level foes to force Minato to use KCM.
> Showing how strong each base form is; apparently Minato's is stronger.



But Minato wasn't capable of using KCM until after Orochimaru resurrected him with Edo Tensei, and the ONLY opponent he has faced since then is Juubito; he wasn't capable of using KCM at all while he was alive, given that he only obtained half of the Kyuubi shortly before he died. I don't understand why you would try to invest any discussion in this point when the explanation only requires a statement of the obvious.

Also, the comparison between MS and KCM is entirely arbitrary in the first place; Hiraishin is still Minato's best ability, so I think it would be more appropriate to compare MS to that (especially because Minato did not possess KCM in his lifetime; it's not fair to judge his battle record in life based on his willingness to use what he didn't have).

I'll even venture a careless generalization and just say that the same opponents that would force Itachi to use MS would force Minato to use Hiraishin, as well, which is why I see those abilities as comparable representations of their power (more-so than KCM, which I actually see as pretty redundant for Minato).


----------



## Trojan (Aug 7, 2013)

> Minato's kunai fazed right through Obito's face, bro. Even if it was only partial-Kamui, that's the part with the Sharingan in it.



It did not seem to me that it went through his eye! but more like his forehead. @.@
but anyway, genjutsu is NOT automatic, itachi will have to use some chakra in his eyes before he does it!
that will be more than enough for minato to dodge it!

and honestly you think itachi can win with normal sharingan?


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Why is Nikushimi still debating when his logic is flawed and thinks Minato wins anyway?

Why is anyone still debating when Minato have no counter to genjutsu and is not even as good a strategist as Itachi?


----------



## BreakBelow (Aug 7, 2013)

You messed up the restrictions, Minato with BM and KCM craps on Itachi you know it so you Restricted it


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Itachi saved KCM naruto and went at it with him and killer bee at the same time hand to hand.

Plus base Minato have no counter to get out of genjutsu and blitz himself.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

What are you on? Minato has KBs which is the best counter to genjutsu


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> What are you on? Minato has KBs which is the best counter to genjutsu



Not to mention Genjutsu countering techniques, alongside knowledge of the Uchiha's Sharingan Genjutsu is pretty mainstream.


----------



## Senjuclan (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Except Itachi landed some of his punches and Kakashi was on the ropes with his arms over his face; Suigadan was blocked and the clone explosion scored a direct hit. And then Kakashi was the one showing signs of fatigue for it. That IS dominating a fight.



1. The exploding clone failed because Kakashi got away from it and had to pull Kurenai out. Here is Kakashi after it, not touched at all
2. Kakashi had poor chakra back then, he always showed signs of fatigue
3. You have not proved that Itachi dominated anything.I attached pages. Please show me a page of the clone having a direct hit on Kakashi



Nikushimi said:


> That's funny, because Asuma commented on Itachi's strength and then Kakashi is the one who ended up hyping Itachi further after all of that.



Funny you just ignored the facts I laid out. Did Itachi wank kakashi's sharingan or not? Simple question. Yes or No



Nikushimi said:


> That's because you've chosen to ignore the fact that Kakashi was forced to block Suigadan and took a direct hit from Bunshin Bakuha. You've also conveniently neglected to acknowledge that he was the one visibly distressed after the exchange.



Do you know what it means to fail to land an attack? It means your opponent blocks your shit. Kakashi blocks, Itachi fails. Kakashi took a direct hit from exploding bunshin in which manga. Not in the one written by Kishimoto



Nikushimi said:


> A 30% base Itachi...who Kakashi fooled with a clone feint for literally a few seconds before Itachi _figured it out himself_. Kakashi didn't actually do anything to Itachi in that fight; it was Naruto who landed the finishing blow while Itachi was distracted and Kakashi was climbing out of a hole in the ground.



So, Kakashi got the best of him. Kakashi asked Naruto to attack. He could have done it himself. 



Nikushimi said:


> Showing the MS was Itachi's way of finishing Kakashi quickly. He made good on his promise.



He did not think he needed the MS to finish them quickly. He realized that with base skills were not cutting it. 



Nikushimi said:


> Except base Itachi>Shouten Itachi>/=base part II Kakashi>part I Kakashi.



Shouten Itachi IS base Itachi. Shouten Itachi did not have enough power to use the MS but he could otherwise use his base jutsus. Part II Kakashi schooled that kid and Part I Kakashi was on par with him according to Kisame. Itachi without MS is inferior to Kakashi



Nikushimi said:


> Part I Kakashi couldn't even get his Raikiri up to attack Orochimaru and you are seriously suggesting Asuma will do it with Hien? No. He will poop his pants and subconsciously admit defeat before they have even fought. Assuming he did somehow muster the courage to attack, Orochimaru would just dodge it and spit Kusanagi through him.



Asuma had enough confidence to attack Kisame and Itachi. I think those two are more dangerous than Orochimaru by his lonesome. 

You don't seem to understand how hien works. It is a surprise attack. Orochimaru has not shown reflexes to suggest that he would dodge it. Is this the same Orochimaru that gennin Sasuke could trip up with his surprise attacks? Orochimaru's strength is not evading attacks but regenerating from them



Nikushimi said:


> Asuma was losing to Kisame in a CQC fight (not even counting Kisame's heavier Ninjutsu arsenal), and if you honestly think he could've done anything to Itachi, your reading comprehension is terrible.



Your reading comprehension is terrible. I am comparing Asuma to Base Itachi. They are in the same tier. They are both average jounin and below Kakashi. Just like Asuma, Base Itachi, NOT MS ITACHI, could never dream to land a hit on Kakashi



Nikushimi said:


> Yeah they are, actually; Killer B stopped Minato's attack after Hiraishin and could've landed one before he teleported away. Itachi was shown to be on par with Killer B's speed and is much smarter, so he can do the same things.



Comparing apples and oranges much? 



Nikushimi said:


> Re-read what you just posted. That should do the trick.



Don't worry reading your Itachi wanking does the trick. You claiming that Itachi landed a single attack on kakashi before MS is pretty laughable.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. The exploding clone failed because Kakashi got away from it and had to pull Kurenai out. Here is Kakashi after it, not touched at all



Now you're just lying. You can see Kakashi's back is singed and he's doubled-over from the blast.



> 2. Kakashi had poor chakra back then, he always showed signs of fatigue



...Yeah, so why are you denying that Itachi was dominating him, then? 



> 3. You have not proved that Itachi dominated anything.I attached pages.



You just admitted Kakashi was the one showing signs of fatigue.



> Please show me a page of the clone having a direct hit on Kakashi



You did that for me.



> Funny you just ignored the facts I laid out. Did Itachi wank kakashi's sharingan or not? Simple question. Yes or No



No. Itachi wanked his own Sharingan by saying that only somebody with Sharingan and Uchiha blood could defeat him.



> Do you know what it means to fail to land an attack? It means your opponent blocks your shit. Kakashi blocks, Itachi fails. Kakashi took a direct hit from exploding bunshin in which manga. Not in the one written by Kishimoto



It's funny how you say that and then link to the exact page showing Kakashi hunched over, with a darkened back, grunting after being hit with Itachi's exploding clone.



> So, Kakashi got the best of him.



If you look at that one brief instant as a discrete example and completely ignore the rest of the exchange (including Itachi's subsequent realization of the switch)...yes.



> Kakashi asked Naruto to attack. He could have done it himself.



Evidently not, because he was still climbing out of the ground and wasn't anywhere near Itachi.



> He did not think he needed the MS to finish them quickly. He realized that with base skills were not cutting it.



The fact that Kakashi was a little harder to one-shot than he assumed doesn't change the fact that Itachi did end the fight quickly as he promised.



> Shouten Itachi IS base Itachi. Shouten Itachi did not have enough power to use the MS but he could otherwise use his base jutsus. Part II Kakashi schooled that kid and Part I Kakashi was on par with him according to Kisame. Itachi without MS is inferior to Kakashi



The Shouten copies are weaker in direct proportion to the chakra they receive:

Not in the one written by Kishimoto

You can even see this in a comparison of their Jutsu:

Not in the one written by Kishimoto
Not in the one written by Kishimoto

with the Jutsu of the original:

Link removed



> Asuma had enough confidence to attack Kisame and Itachi. I think those two are more dangerous than Orochimaru by his lonesome.



Itachi and Kisame don't project the same killing intent that Orochimaru does; Kakashi was able to stand up to them, as well, even though that ended up being proven a terrible idea. The point is, Itachi wasn't fazed by Orochimaru's killing-intent at all because he was stronger than Orochimaru, whereas Kakashi was affected because he was weaker; it's clear where Asuma stands, and it isn't on Itachi's level.



> You don't seem to understand how hien works. It is a surprise attack. Orochimaru has not shown reflexes to suggest that he would dodge it. Is this the same Orochimaru that gennin Sasuke could trip up with his surprise attacks? Orochimaru's strength is not evading attacks but regenerating from them



If Orochimaru is dicking around, yeah. But Orochimaru wasn't just dicking around; Itachi had him paralyzed with Genjutsu- there's a difference, and it's one Asuma can't replicate.



> Your reading comprehension is terrible. I am comparing Asuma to Base Itachi. They are in the same tier. They are both average jounin and below Kakashi. Just like Asuma, Base Itachi, NOT MS ITACHI, could never dream to land a hit on Kakashi



Except 30% base Itachi fought evenly with base Kakashi.

Base Itachi is far, far above Asuma and other Jounin; he is not even close to "average." You wanna talk about terrible reading comprehension? Itachi beat three Jounin using only his Taijutsu when he was just a kid and later dispatched Orochimaru using Genjutsu and a kunai. The man is an absolute monster even without the Mangekyou Sharingan; the only reason Kakashi can stand up to him at all is because Sharingan grants easy resistance to all of his basic Genjutsu, which Asuma has no way to overpower at all.



> Comparing apples and oranges much?



I'm comparing speed with speed; Itachi's as fast as Killer B so he should be able to react to Minato similarly.



> Don't worry reading your Itachi wanking does the trick. You claiming that Itachi landed a single attack on kakashi before MS is pretty laughable.



It's almost sad how sincere you are about this after posting such blatant proof to the contrary yourself.

I guess Kakashi just forgot to wash the back of his jacket before he went out that day. I guess he was hunched over and grunting because Asuma's secondhand smoke was bothering his sinuses. I guess the huge explosion that went off like 2m away from where Kakashi was standing just sort of went around him to be polite (the same explosion that an equidistant Itachi erected an apparent Suijinheki to block).


----------



## Santoryu (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Evidently not, because he was still climbing out of the ground and wasn't anywhere near Itachi.



Closing that distance quickly for a ninja of Kakashi's calibre wouldn't be difficult-not to mention he's an extremely-skilled doton user. Kakashi thought he was up against the real Itachi who had access to the Mangekyo-Sharingan; Kakashi rarely broke a sweat in that fight.



> The Shouten copies are weaker in direct proportion to the chakra they receive:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Yes, but this did not affect  Itachi's taijutsu or intelligence; in fact, when both Kakashi and Itachi engaged in CQC, Kakashi was also using a bunshin....





> Except 30% base Itachi fought evenly with base Kakashi.


If you consider Kakashi's bunshin=base Kakashi, then yes, you would be correct; otherwise:

Kakashi evaded 30% Itachi's attack, outsmarted him, and let Naruto land the finishing blow. And no, I'm not supporting Senjuclan's claim about Asuma being comparable to base Itachi, because he's not. Part 1 Kakashi can contend with base Itachi to some extent, but it was evident that the Copy-Ninja would have been outlasted, back in part 1 at least.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

Santoryu, Chiyo said Itachi was only stalling. Plus there was plenty of skirmishing going on while Naruto was under genjutsu because Itachi lasted longer than Kisame did against Team Gai.

Itachi also specifically said that he was out of chakra when his clone died, nor did he seem to be sweating anymore than Kakashi before taken down by Naruto and Kakashi. Plus he was dying in part two. ​


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

itachi gets trolled at 1000000mph
troll thread 

its lasted 8 pages!!! wooow!!! 

ill elaborate then

minato creates a Kb they both spread kunai about the place. itachi gets killed quickly. Minato reactions exceed itachi's so am pretty confident he can make a clone before itachi makes the first move. From there like i said kunai spread about the place and itachi dies very quickly


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> itachi gets trolled at 1000000mph
> troll thread
> 
> its lasted 8 pages!!! wooow!!!
> ...



Minato wakes up in the next world.. still questioning himself how he died. The clone killed the original due to being subjugated and controlled. No sweat was given by Itachi Uchiha.. who chilled at the Uchiha base throne.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

^ lol i love your fanfic
sadly kishi disagrees with you 
though i would say you havent exactly said what is wrong with my post. 
try and come up with a counter to minato using that strategy 
go on ill wait


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Your fanfic is laughable because you act like Itachi will just stand there and let Kunai surround him or that Minato isn't already in his genjutsu.. Killing himself.

The fact that you can't explain how Minato is going to avoid looking at Itachi's whole body and not being caught in his layered genjutsu field is comical.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Your fanfic is laughable because you act like Itachi will just stand there and let Kunai surround him or that Minato isn't already in his genjutsu.. Killing himself.
> 
> The fact that you can't explain how Minato is going to avoid looking at Itachi's whole body and not being caught in his layered genjutsu field is comical.



who says minato is attempting to throw them at itachi?
his clone, u noe the one immune to genjutsu will be the one throwing them directly at itachi and engaging itachi. you know the same clone who can throw 25 kunai at once in one swing 
while the original throws them round the area, while not looking at itachi 
its not like needs to look at itachi to throw kunai round the field
once all kunai are set up, those both closer to itachi and those around the field
both minato's simply bounce around by which point genjutsu simply cant work because itachi wont be able to keep up with hirashin

your layered genjutsu is fun and games but again that only works on the original who btw will be near impossible to catch in the first place. secondly, if clone minato tags minato from the get go and minato tags his clone. his clone can always get to him to break genjutsu before itachi can capitalize on it. 

also minato reactions exceed itachis which leads me to believe he can either throw 25 kunai or use KB before itachi even decides to use genjutsu. 

So your the comic one here, shame there aint no poll most of NF would agree with me on this one

minato threw 25 kunai before Ei was able to amp up and rush him. Ei reflexes also exceed itachi's. 

again KB is immune to genjutsu which means KB  minato can rush itachi without fear of genjutsu. Now the tagged clone is approaching while throwing kunai. 

i find it hard to believe that itachi can block 25+ kunai and get away from someone faster than himself. who btw is tagged. once the clone gets close, hirashin GG. Minato has too many options

edit: nothing stops minato from making multiple clones, itachi cant make as many due to less chakra. So right there the real itachi will eventually get to close to a clone at which point the original murders him. 
*its alot harder to get away from multiple clones who are each faster than you,  than it is to deflect kunai coming your way isnt it. Ps: these clones will also be throwing kunai. *


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> who says minato is attempting to throw them at itachi?
> his clone, u noe the one immune to genjutsu will be the one throwing them directly at itachi and engaging itachi. you know the same clone who can throw 25 kunai at once in one swing
> while the original throws them round the area, while not looking at itachi
> its not like needs to look at itachi to throw kunai round the field
> ...



You are really arrogant with your ignorance bro. 

First off your whole theory of clones not being under the influence of genjutsu is wrong. Kakashi KB was caught under it by an Itachi clone that wasn't even half of Itachi's strength. So Minato clone will be caught and if the original shows up he will be caught as well. 

Also you just proved my point of how much of a dumb strategist Minato is with a stupid uncoordinated offense you just proposed he will employ. How will he know what kunai to jump to without smacking in to one of his clones? He doesn't have a sharingan and moving at instantaneous speeds will just trip all the fuck up if he spams with his clones. First of all I never see Minato do KB, let alone mass KB. 

Minato have never shown to be effective with KB, now who have shown to be the best with KB is arguable with Itachi right up there in the discussion. Who also is the best with kunai? Itachi he is able to manipulate shuriken like wet clay with out a bead of sweat. Itachi will direct Minato's Kunai while at the same time making clones, while also setting up a genjutsu.. Itachi always have a back up plan B unlike Minato who irrationally or rationally jump in to end the fight quickly without a fallback. He will be countered by Itachi who showcased superior reaction and analytic ability in high speeds against opponents with quicker reflexes than Minato (SM Kabuto, RM Naruto). *Minato will be dead and growing mold like bread bout time he discovers his victory is all in his head*.


----------



## Ƶero (Aug 7, 2013)

This is a stomp. Minato takes it low-mid diff.

Atleast give Itachi MS so that Minato has to work a little harder to beat him.


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> This is a stomp. Minato takes it low-mid diff.
> 
> Atleast give Itachi MS so that Minato has to work a little harder to beat him.



What they should do is restrict sharingan on Itachi then Minato may and I mean may have a chance.


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> What they should do is restrict sharingan on Itachi then Minato may and I mean may have a chance.



Dude pop itachi's dick out of your mouth and take off the fucking jizz covered fan goggles already!


----------



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Now I see why your name is Fairy Tail.. get you Rudy Fruity butt up out of my face ya freak.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> minato creates a Kb they both spread kunai about the place. itachi gets killed quickly. Minato reactions exceed itachi's so am pretty confident he can make a clone before itachi makes the first move.



One of them is hyped in throwing weapons and cloning. It's not Minato.


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Now I see why your name is Fairy Tail.. get you Rudy Fruity butt up out of my face ya freak.



Your lack of understanding of the series is only matched by your bias towards Itachi.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> You are really arrogant with your ignorance bro.
> 
> First off your whole theory of clones not being under the influence of genjutsu is wrong. Kakashi KB was caught under it by an Itachi clone that wasn't even half of Itachi's strength. So Minato clone will be caught and if the original shows up he will be caught as well.
> 
> ...



obvious trolling is obvious 
minato was shown using a clone 2 chapters ago. i see you dont read the manga. 
minato has been shown throwing 25 kunai in just 1 swing. when has itachi done that??? gone on ill wait 
again kakashi KB was *UNAFFECTED BY THE GENJUTSU!!! read this part well* the genjutsu was meant to torture kakashi clone and the clone didnt budge so your the arrogant and ignorant one.  

again minato has done a KB . He didnt suddenly learn it by getting KCM mode 
its good to have people like you on the forum, blind rage fans with no ability to argue 
yet persist. 
*Niku* could give you some lessons on how to argue your case!!....you arent making much sense. 
Minato will know what kunai to jump to because he always does, when has that been a problem. He can clearly sense what is around that kunai before jumping to it. The same reason why he killed 50 or so fodders without bumping into someone or a dead body on the floor


----------



## Bonly (Aug 8, 2013)

Without Susano, Itachi is pretty screwed over. Unless Itachi somehow catches Minato in a genjutsu, he gonna lose.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

its the catching him in genjtusu i find hard to swallow 
25 kunai can be thrown from the offset 
that means minato can be in 25 places at once within an instant. How do you genjutsu someone you cant track ??


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Aug 8, 2013)

Minato is simply on another level then Itachi and it's tough to say because I hate Minatos boring ass character


----------



## HappyHalloween (Aug 8, 2013)

Base Itachi wins with ease, the latest manga chapters prove that Minato doesn't have the intelligence to counteract genjutsu or recognize enemy tactics.

I give this one to Itachi with low to medium difficulty.


----------

