# (Chapter 687 spoilers) Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto vs Two Eyed Rinnegan Jubi Jin Madara



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2014)

Battlefield: Base of the Shinju
Starting Distance: 50 Meters
Restrictions: Mugen Tsukuyomi
Knowledge: Manga for both

Who wins?


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## Lurko (Jul 30, 2014)

Hasn't this been done before?


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## Cognitios (Jul 30, 2014)

At this point, with so little god tier characters, it's getting pretty damn obvious on power levels.
Kaguya > 2 Rinnegan Juubidara > Naruto/Sauce > Pre Absorbtion Juubidara 
By Feats Naruto is above Kaguya, but we know thats not true, so it's much more reliable to go by portrayal.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto was overpowering him way back when when he used Chibaku Tensei and is somewhat matching Kaguya, he takes this.


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## Kai (Jul 30, 2014)

Madara has Naruto's powers and an entire set more.

This isn't even up for debate.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2014)

Kai said:


> Madara has Naruto's powers and an entire set more.
> 
> This isn't even up for debate.


And Naruto was countering him and is fighting a far stronger opponent, holding his own and even causing lasting damage.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

By feats Naruto is stronger than him. Too bad for Madara, BZ fodderized him right away.


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## Jagger (Jul 30, 2014)

Yeah, because Kaguya has obviously the same kind of moveset Madara posesses.

Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that while Kaguya's abilities are terrying, she hasn't done anything on Madara's level regarding destructive power. Just teleporting herself into different dimensions and using Kimimaro's jutsu. It's kind of similar to fighting someone like Minato or Obito. You just need to hit her in the right timing.


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## StickaStick (Jul 30, 2014)

We didn't even get to see what Two Eyed Rinnegan Jubi Jin Madara is capable of 

Honestly, this depends heavily on whether Kishi cares to allow Mads to, you know, actually use his Rinnegan (regular and Tomoe). 

Also, it's not even remotely fair to compare Kaguya to Mads when BZ is pretty much directing all of Kaguya's chess-moves. And even then she's made some pretty questionable (stupid) tactical decisions.


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## Cognitios (Jul 30, 2014)

> Implying Naruto can beat Kaguya solo
Making matches like these when you haven't seen a characters moveset is unrealistic. 
Technically Konohamaru could beat White Fang because White Fang has no feats.
The first chapter that Kaguya appeared  konohamaru could have beaten her do to lack of feats.
At this point you need to use portrayal until a significant amount of moves have been shown.


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## Krippy (Jul 30, 2014)

This isn't even debatable. Madara destroys.


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## iJutsu (Jul 30, 2014)

Madara gets destroyed. We all saw Madara's moves. They weren't that special. Stop trying to make imaginary moves for him.

Kaguya herself isn't just Madara's body. It's all the chakra and possibly the jutsu of every other living being + Zetsu. Madara isn't suddenly going to learn her teleportation.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2014)

Naruto is pretty much holding off Kaguya by himself for the met part. Yes, she could have killed him several
time hadn't it been for plot, but, Kaguya is so much superior to Madara. 

Naruto has not even shown his full power yet.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

Even going by strict feats, Jubi Jin Madara wins. Now if we where to amplify all his techniques in proportion to how much he amplified his latest Mokuton Jutsu or Mugen Tskoyomi. We get ourselfs things such as Shinsuusenju sized PS, Shinsuusenju sized Mokuton Dragons, Shinsuusenju sized Katon techniques etc...The guy has used TWO Global scale Jutsu, I have yet to see anyone use anything beyond village sized attacks/defences, no one even compares. 

Of course no one is going to accept that he could do those this by just saying, he can't, but Madara wins regardless if we allow him to use any Technique he has shown thus far in the manga.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

Shinsuusenju size jutsus are not going to help him when Naruto can cut down the Tree in base without much effort.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Shinsuusenju size jutsus are not going to help him when Naruto can cut down the Tree in base without much effort.



PS's durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shinju Tree durability. A Shinsuusenju sized Katon from Madara would burn the Shinju tree to a crisp. Shinsuusenju sized Mokuton Dragon would be way too bulky for Naruto too cut down, and it can absorb chakra. Or Naruto gets smashed in by a CCCST (Chou Chou Chou Shinra Tensei).


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

There is nothing that suggest PS have more durability than the shinju.  



> Or Naruto gets smashed in by a CCCST (Chou Chou Chou Shinra Tensei).



That's a new level of fan fiction I suppose.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

Madara absorbs EVERY THING ninjutsu based that Naruto throws at him via preta.

Madara has more chakra than him, and has more Senjustu chakra, so yes, madara literally absorbs every ninjutsu based attack naruto throws.

As for the clones, they get fodderized by PS slashes and mokuton constructs


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> There is nothing that suggest PS have more durability than the shinju.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a new level of fan fiction I suppose.



Its not fan fiction. Its just logic.

Madara used a CT tiers above prime nagato, why wouldn't he have a shinra tensei on par with Kaguya's chakra arm that destroyed sasuke's PS? Why you ask? Because its logic


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## Kyu (Jul 31, 2014)

RSM Naruto curbstomps any Uchiha Juubi jin other than Dual Rinnegan Madara.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

Kyu said:


> RSM Naruto curbstomps any Uchiha Juubi jin other than Dual Rinnegan Madara.



Lol, I think I see what u did there.


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## ARGUS (Jul 31, 2014)

Madara wins this,
the manga made it blatantly clear that once madara gained the other rinnegan, he surpassed naruto and sasuke individually which  was  why they both needeed to cooperate in-order to take him down, 
not to mention that madara can also cast Infinite Tsukuyomi which would end naruto


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Madara wins this,
> the manga made it blatantly clear that once madara gained the other rinnegan, he surpassed naruto and sasuke individually which  was  why they both needeed to cooperate in-order to take him down,
> not to mention that madara can also cast Infinite Tsukuyomi which would end naruto


...and Naruto has been fighting an opponent superior to Madara, holding his own and even severed said opponent's arm when he started fighting to kill. Even when Madara gained his other Rinnegan, Naruto easily dealt with his Limbo Clones and Chibaku Tensei. 

And...MUGEN TSUKUYOMI IS RESTRICTED.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...and Naruto has been fighting an opponent superior to Madara, holding his own and even severed said opponent's arm when he started fighting to kill. Even when Madara gained his other Rinnegan, Naruto easily dealt with his Limbo Clones and Chibaku Tensei.
> 
> And...MUGEN TSUKUYOMI IS RESTRICTED.



How did Naruto easily deal with the limbos if his clones were gone?
Ohh yeah, your the same guy that said Naruto stalemated Kaguya even when he got pushed back easily.

Madara is above Naruto, that's why you had to restrict something from madara's arsenal.


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## Veracity (Jul 31, 2014)

Madara cannot react to Naruto. Point blank period. Madara was blizted by Sasukes teleportation Justu and split in half. Kaguya causally evaded Sasukes ST Justu but was completely blitzed by Naruto @ a further distance. She's physically able to over power Sasukes metoer obliterating Sussano and Naruto blitzed and casually ripped her arm off . And considering Sasuke can casually bisect Juubi Madara with a basic sword , I have no problems believing that Naruto outright blitzes a TBB FRS into Madara midsection which then bisects and obliterates him.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

Restrict Naruto's strongest tech to make it fair. Either way, madara absorbs every chakra based attack.


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## Ashi (Jul 31, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Madara cannot react to Naruto. Point blank period. Madara was blizted by Sasukes teleportation Justu and split in half. Kaguya causally evaded Sasukes ST Justu but was completely blitzed by Naruto @ a further distance. She's physically able to over power Sasukes metoer obliterating Sussano and Naruto blitzed and casually ripped her arm off . And considering Sasuke can casually bisect Juubi Madara with a basic sword , I have no problems believing that Naruto outright blitzes a TBB FRS into Madara midsection which then bisects and obliterates him.



This Madara reacted to the same chidori sword without lifting his finger


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## Panther (Jul 31, 2014)

RSM Naruto abolutely  destroy's two-eyed Rinnegan Juubijin Madara, his only chance of winning this fight was with MT and that's restricted. The most impressive jutsu Madara showed is his multiple CT, and that got casually countered by 6BFRS. Limbo got canonically countered by 5 of Naruto's RSM clones. PS,Moukujin,shinshuusenju get casually destroyed by a RSM clone firing a Youton-Rasenshuriken. RSM Naruto casually blitzes Madara with a BFRS.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> There is nothing that suggest PS have more durability than the shinju.



Ummm yes there is. Find ONE thing at least that the Shinju has tanked. Because so far, Shinju has less durability then a rock, literally everything that hit it has cut it. Whereas just the PS armour (Not even PS) casually tanks Bijudamas without a single dent in the armour. Madara's own body tanked a Youton Rasenshuriken, PS eats it. 





> 2That's a new level of fan fiction I suppose.



Not really. He has used Kajukai Koutan before, and then he uses it again as a Jubi Jinchuriki and is global scale. He also used CT, and it was on a much bigger scale then Pein's. Why can't he did that with other Jutsu?


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## Lurko (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm going with Madara,  he has a counter for everything Naruto has and more.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jul 31, 2014)

I have Madara winning this. It was going to take Naruto and Sasuke to bring him down when he retrieved his other rinnegan. People going strictly by feats need to reassess the situation as by feats Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito is far more powerful than Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara and that's not the case. 



Likes boss said:


> Madara cannot react to Naruto. Point blank period. Madara was blizted by Sasukes teleportation Justu and split in half. Kaguya causally evaded Sasukes ST Justu but was completely blitzed by Naruto @ a further distance. She's physically able to over power Sasukes metoer obliterating Sussano and Naruto blitzed and casually ripped her arm off . And considering Sasuke can casually bisect Juubi Madara with a basic sword , I have no problems believing that Naruto outright blitzes a TBB FRS into Madara midsection which then bisects and obliterates him.



I don't think she overpowered Sasuke's PS through physical means the first time because in the recent chapter

Spoilers: 


*Spoiler*: __ 



She hit PS arm and it failed to do anything.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

Panther said:


> RSM Naruto abolutely  destroy's two-eyed Rinnegan Juubijin Madara, his only chance of winning this fight was with MT and that's restricted. The most impressive jutsu Madara showed is his multiple CT, and that got casually countered by 6BFRS. Limbo got canonically countered by 5 of Naruto's RSM clones. PS,Moukujin,shinshuusenju get casually destroyed by a RSM clone firing a Youton-Rasenshuriken. RSM Naruto casually blitzes Madara with a BFRS.



Every chakra base attack gets countered by preta.
Every clone gets ran through by limbo as its canon.
Naruto tried to blitz madara with sasuke well they teleported instantly, and they got trolled. 

Read the manga.


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## Raiken (Jul 31, 2014)

Madara wins, hands down.

Naruto at max is probably equal to Madara when he first became the Juubi Jinchuuriki. Any other version of Madara is more powerful than Naruto.


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## Ruse (Jul 31, 2014)

Madara wins Kishi made it very clear that Naruto would need Sasuke's help to bring duel Rinnegan Madara down. 

If we just went by feats Naruto > Kaguya.....which we know isn't true, the fact that you had to restrict Madara shows his superiority over Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Madara wins Kishi made it very clear that Naruto would need Sasuke's help to bring duel Rinnegan Madara down.


He needed Sasuke's help to seal Rinnegan Madara, which is the same thing as defeating him.


> If we just went by feats Naruto > Kaguya.....which we know isn't true, the fact that you had to restrict Madara shows his superiority over Naruto.


I restricted the technique that he doesn't normally use. And feats do matter.



Fiiction said:


> Every chakra base attack gets countered by preta.


Which Madara never used as a Juubi Jin and relied on his Gudodama.


> Every clone gets ran through by limbo as its canon.


Making up canon shows you're full of shit.


> Naruto tried to blitz madara with sasuke well they teleported instantly, and they got trolled.


You're wrong, Madara used substitution with his Limbo Clone.


> Read the manga.


Given how you're making shit up...



Cryorex said:


> Madara wins, hands down.
> 
> Naruto at max is probably equal to Madara when he first became the Juubi Jinchuuriki. Any other version of Madara is more powerful than Naruto.


Naruto in his new base form was more powerful than that version of Madara. Current Naruto is fighting and damaging someone far more powerful than Madara. Unless you have some feats to prove it?


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## Ashi (Jul 31, 2014)

Ever since Guy opened the 8th  gate Madara fanboys have been nothing but  wank

Even the post saying PS is more durable than Shinju

God help us


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

The fact that the OP had to restrict something from madara, proves he's superior than Naruto.

Crazy how Supersaiyanman12 said that madara can't use preta because he hasn't shown it as a juubi jin.
Wow, now I remember why I don't come on here.
NB has more sense there.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Ever since Guy opened the 8th  gate Madara fanboys have been nothing but  wank
> 
> Even the post saying PS is more durable than Shinju
> 
> God help us



You   bro ? Why  you  mad though ? Is it because its a blatant fact? Maybe if you show me the Shinju actually tanking a strong attack I could reconsider. All Naruto's Youton FRS has is huge AoE. Its terms of actual power, its featless besides cutting something that has always been cut, even a Bijudama was not able to dent PS armour (Not even talking about full PS).


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Which Madara never used as a Juubi Jin and relied on his Gudodama.



Doesn't change the fact that he can use it. Just like he can use every other technique he has ever shown.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Doesn't change the fact that he can use it. Just like he can use every other technique he has ever shown.



Lol, see what I mean. His entire post was bullshit.


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## ueharakk (Jul 31, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> You   bro ? Why  you  mad though ? Is it because its a blatant fact? Maybe if you show me the Shinju actually tanking a strong attack I could reconsider. All Naruto's Youton FRS has is huge AoE. Its terms of actual power, its featless besides cutting something that has always been cut, even a Bijudama was not able to dent PS armour (Not even talking about full PS).



PS is obviously pound for pound more durable than the shinjuu, however it should take far more power to destroy the shinjuu than to destroy PS.

If it took anywhere near the same power, BSM Naruto or BM Minato could have blown the tree in half with one of their super bijuudamas.  That also eliminates the argument that the shinjuu is just as durable as rock or mountains.

YRS not only cut the shinjuu in half, but it did so and kept on going.  That's at least the equivalent of cutting multiple mountain ranges right in half.

PS did not tank a bijuudama.  We see a giant V4 block a bijuudama with its swords, the bijuudama explode, and then PS is around Kurama when the smoke clears.  That gives us no idea how much damage susanoo took from the bijuudama other than it wasn't completely destroyed since Susanoos canonically repair all damage from lower forms when they level up to a higher form.


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## Mister LoLz (Jul 31, 2014)

Without Sauce Naruto won't win this.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> PS is obviously pound for pound more durable than the shinjuu, however it should take far more power to destroy the shinjuu than to destroy PS.



No what it takes more of is AoE, however it takes more potency to take out PS. And Youton FRS is featless in terms of potency, as I have shown that even the likes of Mifune can cut down Shinju. 



> If it took anywhere near the same power, BSM Naruto or BM Minato could have blown the tree in half with one of their super bijuudamas.  That also eliminates the argument that the shinjuu is just as durable as rock or mountains.



He could have, Juubito would have undoubtably stopped him though. Also, plot saves a lot of things. I could also say Madara didn't kill Sasuke when he was struggling on the floor, doesn't mean he couldn't. 



> YRS not only cut the shinjuu in half, but it did so and kept on going.  That's at least the equivalent of cutting multiple mountain ranges right in half.



A mountain should be more durable then the Shinju, though I agree that YRS would slice through a couple of mountains. But it won't cut PS in half, as PS>>>>>>Mountains. Heck, PS's slash can do the exact same if not better. 



> PS did not tank a bijuudama.  We see a giant V4 block a bijuudama with its swords, the bijuudama explode, and then PS is around Kurama when the smoke clears.  That gives us no idea how much damage susanoo took from the bijuudama other than it wasn't completely destroyed since Susanoos canonically repair all damage from lower forms when they level up to a higher form.



We know that Madara covered Kurama in PS armour before the explosion hit Kurama to protect him, that means that regardless of what scenarios you want to make, PS armour had to get hit to protect Kurama.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 31, 2014)

Any Juubi Jinchuuriki would stomp current Naruto in the nuts.


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## ueharakk (Jul 31, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No what it takes more of is AoE, however it takes more potency to take out PS. And Youton FRS is featless in terms of potency, as I have shown that even the likes of Mifune can cut down Shinju.


The only way YRS is featless in terms of potency is if the shinjuu is featless in terms of durability in that you literally can't conclude anything about how durable the shinjuu is.

Mifune with the V1 chakra cloak that massively amplifies the power of his attacks could cut down individual branches of the shinjuu.  That in no way shape or form means that mifune's strikes could cut down the entire tree if they simply had a greater AoE but equal power.

If I can casually chop a twig in half with one swing of an axe, does that mean I can chop the actually trunk of the tree in half with a single swing of an axe when the trunk is 10 feet in diameter?  Obviously not.  It's the same thing here. 




Destiny Monarch said:


> *He could have,* Juubito would have undoubtably stopped him though. Also, plot saves a lot of things. I could also say Madara didn't kill Sasuke when he was struggling on the floor, doesn't mean he couldn't.


but what do you base the bolded on?  What durability feats of the shinjuu put it below that or on the same level as normal rock?





Destiny Monarch said:


> A mountain should be more durable then the Shinju, though I agree that YRS would slice through a couple of mountains. But it won't cut PS in half, as PS>>>>>>Mountains. Heck, PS's slash can do the exact same if not better.


based on what should a mountain be more durable than the shinjuu?  Sure PS's durability >>>>>>>>> a mountains, but a shinjuu's size is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a mountain.  Are you saying that Madara's PS could have casually sliced the shinjuu in half and kept on going?




Destiny Monarch said:


> We know that Madara covered Kurama in PS armour before the explosion hit Kurama to protect him, that means that regardless of what scenarios you want to make, PS armour had to get hit to protect Kurama.


We don't know that.  All we know is that MAdara covered Kurama with his susanoo in order to protect it from the blast.  What susanoo did he cover kurama with when the blast went off is anybody's guess.  We also know that Madara's susanoo wasn't completely finished forming even after the smoke cleared since Kurama's face was still exposed and the PS's nose wasn't even straightened out.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jul 31, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The only way YRS is featless in terms of potency is if the shinjuu is featless in terms of durability in that you literally can't conclude anything about how durable the shinjuu is.



That's exactly the case. Literally every attack that has been used on the Shinju and its parts has destroyed it. It has yet (And probably never will) to tank anything. 



> Mifune with the V1 chakra cloak that massively amplifies the power of his attacks could cut down individual branches of the shinjuu.  That in no way shape or form means that mifune's strikes could cut down the entire tree if they simply had a greater AoE but equal power.



Yes it does, he can cut through the Shinju branches like butter. The Shinju is made of the same material as its branches is it not? 



> If I can casually chop a twig in half with one swing of an axe, does that mean I can chop the actually trunk of the tree in half with a single swing of an axe when the trunk is 10 feet in diameter?  Obviously not.  It's the same thing here.



That is the same thing as Mifune cutting down those branches with his AoE and then trying to cut down the Shinju with the same AoE as the AoE he used to cut down the branches. However if we where to increase his AoE in proportion to the size increase of the Shinju compared to the branches, then he would cut it just like he cut the branches. 





> but what do you base the bolded on?  What durability feats of the shinjuu put it below that or on the same level as normal rock?



It HAS no durability feats. Its durability feats are in the negatives. 





> based on what should a mountain be more durable than the shinjuu?  Sure PS's durability >>>>>>>>> a mountains, but a shinjuu's size is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a mountain.  Are you saying that Madara's PS could have casually sliced the shinjuu in half and kept on going?



This talk is irrelevant, this is talking about AoE, I am aware that YRS has enourmous AoE, however its potency is featless. As a matter of fact, I realized that YRS failed to do something that Sasuke's Katana managed to do, which is cut Madara in half. Honestly, I don't want to downplay the Jutsu, but there is simply nothing that dictates that it can even put a dent in PS, let alone go right through it. 




> We don't know that.  All we know is that MAdara covered Kurama with his susanoo in order to protect it from the blast.  What susanoo did he cover kurama with when the blast went off is anybody's guess.  We also know that Madara's susanoo wasn't completely finished forming even after the smoke cleared since Kurama's face was still exposed and the PS's nose wasn't even straightened out.



We know that before the Bijudama went off, Madara quickly coated Kurama in armour to protect him from the blast, we know that the second we see him after the blast, Kurama is covered in PS. That's enough evidence to dictate that the PS armour that Kurama was wearing was the same armour that tanked the attack. What your doing right now is trying to look for a way that aroud that fact, but we already have all the evidence we need. Unless you have counter evidence, PS's armour did in fact tank the Bijudama.


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## ueharakk (Jul 31, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That's exactly the case. Literally every attack that has been used on the Shinju and its parts has destroyed it. It has yet (And probably never will) to tank anything.


but why would every attack destroying it mean that nothing can be concluded about its durability?  Do you think mifune can cut through the entire shinjuu with one of his sword strikes if his sword had the AoE to do so?  If not, what's the basis for that claim?




Destiny Monarch said:


> Yes it does, he can cut through the Shinju branches like butter. The Shinju is made of the same material as its branches is it not?
> 
> That is the same thing as Mifune cutting down those branches with his AoE and then trying to cut down the Shinju with the same AoE as the AoE he used to cut down the branches. However if we where to increase his AoE in proportion to the size increase of the Shinju compared to the branches, then he would cut it just like he cut the branches.


Absolutely not.  If you simply increase the AoE of mifune's attacks but keep the power of his attacks constant, then his power gets dispated across that greater AoE and therefore he does not do anything to the shinjuu.

It's like saying if i can cut a twig with a swing of an axe, then I can cut the entire tree down with a swing of an axe as long as the axe was wide enough.  Obviously that's completely illogical.  



Destiny Monarch said:


> It HAS no durability feats. Its durability feats are in the negatives.


Then you have absolutely no basis for claiming that rock or a mountain is more durable than it.  Simply having no durability feats in no way shape or form means that something is less durable than something that does have durability feats.  



Destiny Monarch said:


> This talk is irrelevant, this is talking about AoE, I am aware that YRS has enourmous AoE, however its potency is featless. As a matter of fact, I realized that YRS failed to do something that Sasuke's Katana managed to do, which is cut Madara in half. Honestly, I don't want to downplay the Jutsu, but there is simply nothing that dictates that it can even put a dent in PS, let alone go right through it.


It's absolutely not just about the AoE.  Sure YRS's AoE is huge, however it has to be extremely potent in order to slice through the entire shinjuu and keep on going.  
Madara wasn't even hit by the full force of *YRS which is why he's on the tree branch and not taking taking the wave to the stomach until the technique disappates.  *

Everything indicates it at least heavily damages PS.  The shinjuu is by far the greatest mokuton in the manga.  It takes about as much power to destroy shinsuusenjuu's backpack as it takes to destroy PS.  If the YRS can casually slice through a mokuton that's far larger and probably pound for pound at least as durable as shinsuusenjuu then it's going to do a lot of damage to PS.

I'll ask you again, do you believe Madara's EMS PS could have casually sliced through the shinjuu?





Destiny Monarch said:


> We know that before the Bijudama went off, Madara quickly coated Kurama in armour to protect him from the blast, we know that the second we see him after the blast, Kurama is covered in PS. That's enough evidence to dictate that the PS armour that Kurama was wearing was the same armour that tanked the attack. What your doing right now is trying to look for a way that aroud that fact, but we already have all the evidence we need. Unless you have counter evidence, PS's armour did in fact tank the Bijudama.


We don't know if Madara had finish coating Kurama in armor, we just know that madara protected Kurama from the blast with his susanoo.  The rest of your post does not in anyway logically follow from the first two points.  

Then there's the fact that we know Madara was still covering kurama with his PS even after the smoke cleared on top of the fact that madara's V4 susanoo blocked the dama with its swords, preventing a direct hit.  So no, nothing implies in the slightest that Madara's PS took the bijuudama with no damage.  In fact, his clash with shinsuusenjuu where Madara's PS is busted by the equivalent of 13ish bijuudamashurikens heavily implies that madara's PS was damaged by the dama since 13x 0 damage = 0 damage.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Any Juubi Jinchuuriki would stomp current Naruto in the nuts.



stomp? 
oh please...  

No one stomping Narudo, NO ONE.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 31, 2014)

This version of Madara demolishes any version of Naruto and also defeats Kaguya.


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## Ruse (Jul 31, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He needed Sasuke's help to seal Rinnegan Madara, which is the same thing as defeating him.



So you admit he needed Sasuke's help to defeat duel Rinnegan Juubi Madara so he can't do it by himself........fine by me 



> I restricted the technique that he doesn't normally use. And feats do matter



You still had to restrict Madara to give Naruto a chance at winning this which says it all really.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> This version of Madara demolishes any version of Naruto and also defeats Kaguya.



no, he does not defeat Kaguya, he couldn't even handle BZ. 
Kaguya's power was so much that he became a balloon.


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## Fiiction (Jul 31, 2014)

With no restrictions, madara beats Naruto neg diff. MANGAFACT
With 1 Jutsu. Infinite Tsukuyomi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> So you admit he needed Sasuke's help to defeat duel Rinnegan Juubi Madara so he can't do it by himself........fine by me


If Naruto can fight Kaguya nearly evenly and cause lasting damage on her. dual Rinnegan Juubi Madara will also suffer the same fate.

Sasuke and Naruto planned to SEAL Madara, not beat him down.


> You still had to restrict Madara to give Naruto a chance at winning this which says it all really.


Restrict a technique Madara doesn't normally use, a technique that has a lot of circumstances for it.



Fiiction said:


> With no restrictions, madara beats Naruto neg diff. MANGAFACT
> With 1 Jutsu. Infinite Tsukuyomi.


And Mugen Tsukuyomi requires a lot of circumstances and isn't one of Madara's normal moves, Fiiction.

Seriously, are you so threatened that Naruto or Sasuke could probably defeat Madara one on one?


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## αce (Jul 31, 2014)

> I restricted the technique that he doesn't normally use. And feats do matter


Of course he doesn't normally use it. He only had one fucking opportunity to cast it. You phrase this as if he had past chances at casting the ability. The moment he had the chance, he went into the sky and cast it immediately.

In other words, if given the technique, the chances that he's going to use it IC is 100%.




> Restrict a technique Madara doesn't normally use, a technique that has a lot of circumstances for it.



Again, you're phrasing this as if he's skipped opportunities to use it. And the only circumstance is that the moon is out and his eyes meet its surface. The previous pre-requisites, which include having the rinnegan in both eyes and being the juubi jin, has already been met.


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## Ruse (Jul 31, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Naruto can fight Kaguya nearly evenly and cause lasting damage on her. dual Rinnegan Juubi Madara will also suffer the same fate.
> 
> Sasuke and Naruto planned to SEAL Madara, not beat him down.
> 
> ...



This is Juubi duel eyed Rinnegan Madara its a move he's been shown capable of using so its part of its arsenal, no matter how you try and phrase it you had to restrict Madara so that Naruto would have a chance of winning this.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> no, he does not defeat Kaguya, he couldn't even handle BZ.
> Kaguya's power was so much that he became a balloon.



Mainly because Black Zetsu (aka Kaguya's will) used Madara's cockiness against him, though...
At that point, he wasn't controlling his body.

There's no indication that Kaguya can use Six Paths like her son and Madara. Additionally, her battle instincts are very poor, to the point where she gets hit by Naruto.


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## Lurko (Jul 31, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> This version of Madara demolishes any version of Naruto and also defeats Kaguya.



Chill man, Madara isn't beating Kaguya and it won't be easy for Madara to beat Naruto.


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## Ruse (Jul 31, 2014)

Madara is not beating Kaguya lets be serious now.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Mainly because Black Zetsu (aka Kaguya's will) used Madara's cockiness against him, though...
> At that point, he wasn't controlling his body.
> 
> There's no indication that Kaguya can use Six Paths like her son and Madara. Additionally, her battle instincts are very poor, to the point where she gets hit by Naruto.



Madara is the same one here as well, his cockiness won't suddenly disappear. 

- How the heck is getting hit by Naruto means something like that? 
Naruto is TOO powerful, getting hit by him does not prove anything. 

but I agree she sucks and overrated as well. 
Nevertheless, Madara does not have the seal to seal her, and he will get destroyed eventually.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 31, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Madara is the same one here as well, his cockiness won't suddenly disappear.



I'm referring to the fact that Madara got blindsided by Black Zetsu due to his lack of knowledge and arrogance. If we are talking about a one-on-one fight against Kaguya w/ Black Zetsu, it would never reach that point. 

Madara would notice the powerful chakra and overwhelm her with battle superiority. She can't compete with Six Paths, either, combined with the might of Juubi and Senjutsu-enhanced EMS/Mokuton/Rinnegan.



> - How the heck is getting his by Naruto means something like that?
> Naruto is TOO powerful, getting hit by him does not prove anything.
> 
> but I agree she sucks and overrated as well.



It just shows that she's weaker than expected and overrated, combined with the lack of battle instinct. 

On top of that, she's not the sharpest tool in the shed.


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## Invictus-Kun (Jul 31, 2014)

Naruto dies...his power is not enough yet...


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## Rocky (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Madara would notice the powerful chakra and overwhelm her with battle superiority. She can't compete with Six Paths, either, combined with the might of Juubi and Senjutsu-enhanced EMS/Mokuton/Rinnegan.



I don't remember Madara ever being portrayed above Rikudō Sennin, and Kaguya is more powerful than even him:



You're overrating Madara.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I don't remember Madara ever being portrayed above Rikudō Sennin, and Kaguya is more powerful than even him:
> 
> 
> 
> You're overrating Madara.



Having such power =/= being capable of using the abilities to an extent that overwhelms someone who's more versatile than anyone in the manga

When Hagoromo referred to her strength, it could have been linked to her control over people with Mugen Tsukuyomi; that doesn't necessarily mean she's stronger than the likes of Hagoromo/Madara in combat, who are direct equals...though JJ Madara w/ both Rinnegan could be  a tad better with Mokuton and EMS.

The panel's interpretation is ambiguous, imo.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 1, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> but why would every attack destroying it mean that nothing can be concluded about its durability?  Do you think mifune can cut through the entire shinjuu with one of his sword strikes if his sword had the AoE to do so?  If not, what's the basis for that claim



Yes, that's exactly what I think, I said it already and I will say it again, if Mifune's AoE increased in proportion to the size of the Shinju then he WOULD cut it jut like he cut the branch. 





> Absolutely not.  If you simply increase the AoE of mifune's attacks but keep the power of his attacks constant, then his power gets dispated across that greater AoE and therefore he does not do anything to the shinjuu.



Your taking it too literally. I mean keep the same amount of power that he used to cut the branch and increase its AoE without distributing the power into the AoE. 



> Then you have absolutely no basis for claiming that rock or a mountain is more durable than it.  Simply having no durability feats in no way shape or form means that something is less durable than something that does have durability feats.



Well the Shinju has been cut by attacks like Tobirama's Suiton. While Mountains have only been destroyed by Bijudamas and PS slashes, either way, wether they are greater or equal in durability, it really does not make a difference here. 



> It's absolutely not just about the AoE.  Sure YRS's AoE is huge, however it has to be extremely potent in order to slice through the entire shinjuu and keep on going.
> Madara wasn't even hit by the full force of *YRS which is why he's on the tree branch and not taking taking the wave to the stomach until the technique disappates.  *



No it doesn't, it just needs to have enough force behind it, Naruto simply threw it hard, and it cut through the weak wood like butter until it exploded half way through the Shinju tree and ultimately cut the tree of its roots. Madara was hit by the full force of it, in the very first panel you could see it had a direct hit on him and was pushing him back full throttle. And the most it did to him was a huge gash, while Sasuke cut him in clean two. As far as potency goes, even Sasuke's Katana is more lethal, or so it is according to feats. 



> Everything indicates it at least heavily damages PS.  The shinjuu is by far the greatest mokuton in the manga.  It takes about as much power to destroy shinsuusenjuu's backpack as it takes to destroy PS.  If the YRS can casually slice through a mokuton that's far larger and probably pound for pound at least as durable as shinsuusenjuu then it's going to do a lot of damage to PS.



Absolutely nothing indicates that. If a Katana can do more damage to Madara then YRS can, then YRS is not phasing PS in the slightest. In terms of offence, the Shinju is pretty deadly, but if you hit it with virtually any very large AoE attack, it falls apart. It took 11 Bijudama/Swords to break Shinseesenju's backpack, so it takes 11 Bijudama/Swords to take out PS armour, and then you have an enourmous Susano'O under that armour that you also have to take out. Kurama was just wearing the armour, he was not wearing PS itself. Shinju needs very large attacks to destroy, PS needs very potent attacks to destroy. Even a single non-PS sword enhanced Bijudama is more potent then YRS, there is no possible way it can do anything to PS. 



> I'll ask you again, do you believe Madara's EMS PS could have casually sliced through the shinjuu?



Not the whole way, it has not quiet shown that level of AoE. Though it can probably go half way, and then a second one to finish the deal. It would easily pierce through the Shinju if that's what you want to hear, it just lacks the AoE to fully tear it down. 




> We don't know if Madara had finish coating Kurama in armor, we just know that madara protected Kurama from the blast with his susanoo.  The rest of your post does not in anyway logically follow from the first two points.



Well we know he successfully protected him, so yes, he did finish coating Kurama in armour. 



> Then there's the fact that we know Madara was still covering kurama with his PS even after the smoke cleared on top of the fact that madara's V4 susanoo blocked the dama with its swords, preventing a direct hit.  So no, nothing implies in the slightest that Madara's PS took the bijuudama with no damage.  In fact, his clash with shinsuusenjuu where Madara's PS is busted by the equivalent of 13ish bijuudamashurikens heavily implies that madara's PS was damaged by the dama since 13x 0 damage = 0 damage.



He was done covering, he just slid down the helmet. Blocking the Dama with swords doesn't mean anything, it still exploded from very close proximity. If it took 13 Bijudamashurikens worth of power to bust the armour open, then how would one single Bijudama even dent it? I would say the denting point woud be at the 4-5 mark.



Rocky said:


> I don't remember Madara ever being portrayed above Rikudō Sennin, and Kaguya is more powerful than even him:
> 
> 
> 
> You're overrating Madara.



Well HERE  he implies that obtaining the ten-tails, is obtaining a power close to his, and is now trying to obtain a power close to his mothers (Which is the Third Eye). Furthermore, just to reverse one Jutsu he created (Mugen Tskoyomi), Hagoromo implied he needs both the chakra he gave to Naruto and the chakra he gave to Sasuke (He divided most of his chakra and distributed them to the bout of them). That's all I have to say on the matter.


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## Rocky (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Having such power =/= being capable of using the abilities to an extent that overwhelms someone who's more versatile than anyone in the manga



I really don't know what your definition of power or strength is right now. If you're more powerful/stronger than somebody, you are going to defeat them in a fair fight. Otherwise, you wouldn't be stronger...

And it would have _definitely_ been noted if she couldn't use her strength for whatever reason. Where is your evidence, anyway?



> When Hagoromo referred to her strength, it could have been linked to her control over people with Mugen Tsukuyomi; that doesn't necessarily mean she's stronger than the likes of Hagoromo/Madara in combat, who are direct equals...though JJ Madara w/ both Rinnegan could be  a tad better with Mokuton and EMS.



Naruto literally asked the Sage if Kaguya was stronger than him, and he said "yes, me everyone else." Sasuke thought her power was on a different tier than Madara and wondered how she could even exist...

You're attempting to argue with canon now.

Btw, when did Madara become Hagoromo's equal, and what exactly supports that? Madara didn't do anything except get countered by Naruto and Sasuke then get beaten by Zetsu. Both Kaguya and Madara have lackluster feats, but everything statement wise points to Kaguya, and I mean _everything._



> The panel's interpretation is ambiguous, imo.



I see no ambiguity.


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## ueharakk (Aug 1, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I think, I said it already and I will say it again, if Mifune's AoE increased in proportion to the size of the Shinju then he WOULD cut it jut like he cut the branch.
> 
> 
> Your taking it too literally. I mean keep the same amount of power that he used to cut the branch and increase its AoE without distributing the power into the AoE.


....brother, if you're going to keep the power constant but increase the AoE, then that means less power is going to be distributed across that AoE.  You'd need to massively increase the total power in the strike in order to make it equal to the power mifune's actual strike did in the manga.  Yet even then that wouldn't mean mifune cuts the tree in half since he'd only penetrate the tree as much as the width of the branches that he cut.  He'd need far more power across the AoE in order to make a cut that's not only far longer but also travels far deeper than what he did in canon.  

So no, in order for Mifune to cut the shinjuu, the total power of his strike would have to increase in proportion to the size of the shinjuu vs the size of the root he cut.




Destiny Monarch said:


> Well the Shinju has been cut by attacks like Tobirama's Suiton. While Mountains have only been destroyed by Bijudamas and PS slashes, either way, wether they are greater or equal in durability, it really does not make a difference here.


Mountains are far larger than the shinjuu roots that tobirama cut, so that's an invalid comparison about how pound for pound durable each are.  What you'd need to do is compare a 'mountain' (or rock formation) the relative size of the shinjuu roots that tobirama's water laser cut and show that it would not be cut by the water laser.  




Destiny Monarch said:


> No it doesn't, it just needs to have enough force behind it, Naruto simply threw it hard, and it cut through the weak wood like butter until it exploded half way through the Shinju tree and ultimately cut the tree of its roots. Madara was hit by the full force of it, in the very first panel you could see it had a direct hit on him and was pushing him back full throttle. And the most it did to him was a huge gash, while Sasuke cut him in clean two. As far as potency goes, even Sasuke's Katana is more lethal, or so it is according to feats.


Madara wasn't hit by the full force of it.  He was hit directly by it, carried, and then launched away after naruto expanded the technique.  After naruto expanded the technique madara wasn't hit by it despite the technique still existing and still expanding.  In PS's case, Naruto would throw it at the jutsu and it would collide with it and then naruto would make it burst.  After it bursts, the heat wave either slices PS in half, or gets completely stopped by the technique (probably the later will happen).  That would be taking the full force of the YRS.

Are you literally arguing that Sasuke could throw his katana at the shinjuu from one end and it would come out the other end? 




Destiny Monarch said:


> Absolutely nothing indicates that. If a Katana can do more damage to Madara then YRS can, then YRS is not phasing PS in the slightest. In terms of offence, the Shinju is pretty deadly, but if you hit it with virtually any very large AoE attack, it falls apart. It took 11 Bijudama/Swords to break Shinseesenju's backpack, so it takes 11 Bijudama/Swords to take out PS armour, and then you have an enourmous Susano'O under that armour that you also have to take out. Kurama was just wearing the armour, he was not wearing PS itself. Shinju needs very large attacks to destroy, PS needs very potent attacks to destroy. *Even a single non-PS sword enhanced Bijudama is more potent then YRS, there is no possible way it can do anything to PS.*


Either Sasuke's katana doing that to madara was a plot outlier feat, or madara flew at sasuke with such speed that the stab just became that powerful.  The only alternative is that people like V1 Ei would be able to laugh off YRS.  So pick one.

Why in the world is the bolded true?  8th gated gai's evening elephant's direct hits were even more potent than BSM Naruto's senpou bijuudama, proven by Gai punching madara through his onmyouton shield (which the bijuudama couldn't bust through) and then across the landscape.  Yet Madara sustained far less damage from that attack than he did from the YRS.

Also, Kurama was wearing the entire PS, MAdara had to spread it out in order to cover the entire beast which required him to use the chakra for the insides for pure armor.  Not only that but we also know that Kyuusanoo had two PS arms, and those arms couldn't have been all armor since they move on their own.



Destiny Monarch said:


> Not the whole way, it has not quiet shown that level of AoE. Though it can probably go half way, and then a second one to finish the deal. It would easily pierce through the Shinju if that's what you want to hear, it just lacks the AoE to fully tear it down.


Why not the whole way?  We've seen Madara's PS do a 360 arc slash and the wave of the slash would not stop unless all of its power is used on something.





Destiny Monarch said:


> Well we know he successfully protected him, so yes, he did finish coating Kurama in armour.


Again, why in the world does it successfully protecting him = he finished coating Kurama in the PS armor?  




Destiny Monarch said:


> He was done covering, he just slid down the helmet. Blocking the Dama with swords doesn't mean anything, it still exploded from very close proximity. If it took 13 Bijudamashurikens worth of power to bust the armour open, then how would one single Bijudama even dent it? I would say the denting point woud be at the 4-5 mark.


If the Kyuubi was wearing PS when the bomb went off, but its face wasn't covered, wouldn't we expect to see its face damaged?  If the Kyuubi was wearing PS when the bomb went off, wouldn't we expect MAdara to at least be capable of sliding the helmet down before the smoke cleared?  

Blocking the dama with the swords definitely decreases its power as the blast has to go through the swords, and the blast isn't hitting PS at point blank.  

If it took 13 PS bijuudamas in order to destroy PS, then each is taking out about 7.5% of susanoo, and that would obviously leave noticeable damage.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Rocky said:


> *I really don't know what your definition of power or strength is right now.* If you're more powerful/stronger than somebody, you are going to defeat them in a fair fight. Otherwise, you wouldn't be stronger...



Read my last post and below.



> And it would have _definitely_ been noted if she couldn't use her strength for whatever reason. Where is your evidence, anyway?



When I talk about strength, I'm referring to Kaguya's lacking ability in battle.
- Her battle instinct is poor.
- She doesn't have Six Paths.
- There are definitely limits to her chakra reserves, as we've seen with the dimensions. 
- Most important of all: she lacks versatility. It's almost as if we're seeing MS Obito all over again.



> Naruto literally asked the Sage if Kaguya was stronger than him, and he said "yes, me everyone else."



Like I said, there can be many reasons why Hagoromo regards her power in that way.
Per canon, it's definitely not her battle strength.



> Sasuke thought her power was on a different tier than Madara and wondered how she could even exist...



She technically absorbed Madara, considering his body was taken over. So that, coupled with Kaguya's own power, would make her appear stronger than JJ Madara.

Chakra reserves don't equate to being stronger, though. 
Itachi is superior to many people who trump his chakra pool, even Bijuu. Even if Sasuke was referring to quality, Kaguya lacks the "versatility" to make that "quality" worthwhile.



> Btw, when did Madara become Hagoromo's equal,



By proxy of achieving his eyes and becoming a Juubi Jin... Along with that, his battle experience and instinct are beyond incredible - when he tries, at least - and he's also got access to things that Hagoromo doesn't even have, considering there was an evolution of techniques during the years he'd transmigrated. 



> and what exactly supports that?



The above.



> *Madara didn't do anything except get countered by Naruto and Sasuke*
> 
> Both Kaguya and Madara have lackluster feats, but everything statement wise points to Kaguya, and I mean _everything._



@bolded: Fair enough. 
As we can agree, both Madara and Kaguya have lackluster performances, and that's partly because of their power level compared to Naruto/Sasuke. However, we can't just disregard Madara's on-panel feats and portrayal of being more versatile than Kaguya. I mean, she's missing Six Paths and many techniques that are construed as deadly. 

Six Paths, however, is arguably more powerful than any set of techniques in the manga - when powered by Juubi/Senjutsu - so he's definitely a force to be reckoned with. As soon as Madara gained his other Rinnegan, he casually tossed several gravitational orbs that kept Naruto/Sasuke busy long enough to prepare Mugen Tsukuyomi. If the latter wasn't apart of his plan, he could have killed the distracted characters through several methods, along with everyone on the battlefield. That's not very climatic, though.

Continent-sized Shinra Tensei followed up by a Juubidama? 



> then get beaten by Zetsu.



Due to lack of knowledge...
But that doesn't change his placement in a tier list.

Unless you think BZ is stronger than JJ Madara w/ Rinnegan x2?


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## Kai (Aug 1, 2014)

Hagoromo would never throw away his treasures, for one. He also harnessed the ability of Banbutsu Sozo, the seemingly ultimate ninjutsu and power of creation. 

Madara was close to Hagoromo's power, as stated, but Hagoromo comes off with a greater summed total of powers and knowledge/wisdom in comparison to Madara.


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## Rocky (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> When I talk about strength, I'm referring to Kaguya's lacking ability in battle.



Lacking ability...?

She's almost killed Naruto & Sasuke multiple times over while holding back. She's had a better showing than Jūbidara imo.



> Like I said, there can be many reasons why Hagoromo regards her power in that way.
> Per canon, it's definitely not her battle strength.



There is no way in which strength cannot be interpreted as battle power in the context of their conversation. Mugen Tsukuyomi is part of her power anyway.



> Even if Sasuke was referring to quality, Kaguya lacks the "versatility" to make that "quality" worthwhile.



I don't know what that means. 



> By proxy of achieving his eyes and becoming a Juubi Jin... Along with that, his battle experience and instinct are beyond incredible - when he tries, at least - and he's also got access to things that Hagoromo doesn't even have, considering there was an evolution of techniques during the years he'd transmigrated.



Both Hagoromo and Madara can do things the other can't, yes. Just having the Rinnegan and Jūbi is not grounds to say he is Hagoromo's equal though. Since when did that logic fly?

Also, where is this godly battle proficiency your giving Madara coming from? Literally, what has this guy done other than throw around big Jutsu and hope they work?



> As we can agree, both Madara and Kaguya have lackluster performances, and that's partly because of their power level compared to Naruto/Sasuke. However, we can't just disregard Madara's on-panel feats and portrayal of being more versatile than Kaguya. I mean, she's missing Six Paths and many techniques that are construed as deadly.



He's more versatile if we assume he can use all of the abilities he should be able to use. I don't see how he would beat Kaguya by feats, though.

She can literally BFR him with a thought in the Battledome. If they were to fight in the manga, it becomes a Taijutsu match since ninjutsu is useless on both, and Kaguya has better Taijutsu feats. Madara's CQC feats against God Tiers are getting his ass beat by Gai and being bisected by Sasuke.



> Six Paths, however, is arguably more powerful than any set of techniques in the manga - when powered by Juubi/Senjutsu - so he's definitely a force to be reckoned with. As soon as Madara gained his other Rinnegan, he casually tossed several gravitational orbs that kept Naruto/Sasuke busy long enough to prepare Mugen Tsukuyomi. If the latter wasn't apart of his plan, he could have killed the distracted characters through several methods, along with everyone on the battlefield. That's not very climatic, though.



Kaguya has not left this manga, meaning she isn't quite done yet. 

I know that the Pain techniques are broken, and I still regard Hagoromo's moon creating feat as the best in the manga, but Kaguya supposedly has chakra on a different level than even that of the Jūbi, so I'm assuming she's currently under heavier PnJ than Madara and Obito were.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 1, 2014)

Kai said:


> Hagoromo would never throw away his treasures, for one. He also harnessed the ability of Banbutsu Sozo, the seemingly ultimate ninjutsu and power of creation.
> 
> Madara was close to Hagoromo's power, as stated, but Hagoromo comes off with a greater summed total of powers and knowledge/wisdom in comparison to Madara.



If you're talking to me, I never stated that Hagoromo would throw out his treasures. 
However, the treasures are basically useless when he's got mastery over all elemental affinities and Ningendou.

Regarding Banbutsu Souzou, the technique obviously has limits, considering Hagoromo was incapable of just...making all Tailed Beasts disappear, you know. That would fix many problems and essentially make Kaguya's revival impossible.


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## Kai (Aug 1, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> If you're talking to me, I never stated that Hagoromo would throw out his treasures.
> However, the treasures are basically useless when he's got mastery over all elemental affinities and Ningendou.
> 
> Regarding Banbutsu Souzou, the technique obviously has limits, considering Hagoromo was incapable of just...making all Tailed Beasts disappear, you know. That would fix many problems and essentially make Kaguya's revival impossible.


It appears the treasures still have a role to play, so I wouldn't be so quick to say that. In the hands of Hagoromo, they're likely to be powerful items.

This discussion doesn't make the thread any less of a stomp, and Madara is certainly on Hagoromo's tier, but Hagoromo possesses a couple advantages that Madara does not. Hagoromo's composite nature against Madara's more arrogant nature is, in my opinion, one of them and a tide changer at that.


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## Lurko (Aug 1, 2014)

Hagoromo would take Madara to school.


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## Azula (Aug 1, 2014)

Madara's clones were damaged by the gudoudama sticks, they would be wiped off the earth by the rasenshurikens made from gudoudamas





Or they could be sealed



Naruto pulls out the bijuus from his body like with obito and then madara cant fight and dies


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## Raiken (Aug 1, 2014)

Saying that Naruto at max is more powerful than a Perfect Juubi Jin with Dual Rinnegan is like saying Naurto > Juubi Jinchuuriki Hagoromo, because Madara at that point was basically at that level. Hagaromo didn't even have the Shinju Absorption Markings, Madara could have been slightly more powerful than Hagoromo.

9BJ SM Naruto caught JJ Madara by suprise. He was still recovering from Guy's 8 Gate Massacre. And Madara underestimated Naruto's rise in strength and it took him off-guard. Yet he still healed from his YFRS with out too much difficulty. Saying SM Naruto > That version of JJ Madara based on just that is so baseless, especially considering the circumstances.

JJ "Pre-Shinju" 1 Rinnegan Madara >> 9BJ "Hagaromo's Gift" Sage Mode Naruto (For reasons like I explained, Madara was caught with his pants down basically.)

JJ "Pre-Shinju" 1 Rinnegan Madara = 9BJ "Hagaromo's Gift" Chakra Sage Mode Naruto
^
_They likely both at that point have comparable Power of Chakra. Utility wise: Madara has the 1 Rinnegan, Naruto has the 9-Bijuu Abilities._

JJ "Post-Shinju" 1 Rinnegan Madara > 9BJ "Hagaromo's Gift" Chakra Sage Mode Naruto (Naruto & Sasuke were both needed  to defeat.)

JJ "Post-Shinju" 2 Rinnegan Madara >> 9BJ "Hagaromo's Gift" Chakra Sage Mode Naruto (Was very much hyped that they *may* have been fucked at that point.)

JJ "Post-Shinju" Tomoe-Rinnegan/2 Rinnegan Madara >>> 9BJ "Hagaromo's Gift" Chakra Sage Mode Naruto

Kaguya Ōtsutsuki >? JJ "Post-Shinju" Tomoe-Rinnegan/2 Rinnegan Madara


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 1, 2014)

Canonically Naruto hasn't defeated the Limbo clones yet, let alone Madara himself who aren't busy for MT. 

For Hagoromo I think it depends on the 3rd Rinnegan really cause his statement clearly excludes it. FP Jubidara can probably be stronger than him, but for now it's all speculation.


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## Csdabest (Aug 1, 2014)

Naruto couldn't blitz Madara. Madara already sent Naruto Flying. Madara has answers for Naruto clones with his own clones. He can even Make Susano-o clones up to 25 of them. Madara can also absorb any technique that Naruto can throw at him. Madara can also use the chakra chains to subdue Naruto's CHakra.

Madara has too many options to deal with Naruto. Sasuke thanks to his S/T jutsu would have a easier time dealing with Madara. according to what has been shown so far.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 1, 2014)

Csdabest said:


> Naruto couldn't blitz Madara. Madara already sent Naruto Flying. Madara has answers for Naruto clones with his own clones. He can even Make Susano-o clones up to 25 of them. Madara can also absorb any technique that Naruto can throw at him. Madara can also use the chakra chains to subdue Naruto's CHakra.
> 
> Madara has too many options to deal with Naruto. Sasuke thanks to his S/T jutsu would have a easier time dealing with Madara. according to what has been shown so far.



He can't use susanoo or absorb chakra as the Ten Tails Jinchurikki


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 1, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He can't use susanoo or absorb chakra as the Ten Tails Jinchurikki



Do you have any proof of this? 



ueharakk said:


> ....brother, if you're going to keep the power constant but increase the AoE, then that means less power is going to be distributed across that AoE.  You'd need to massively increase the total power in the strike in order to make it equal to the power mifune's actual strike did in the manga.  Yet even then that wouldn't mean mifune cuts the tree in half since he'd only penetrate the tree as much as the width of the branches that he cut.  He'd need far more power across the AoE in order to make a cut that's not only far longer but also travels far deeper than what he did in canon.
> 
> So no, in order for Mifune to cut the shinjuu, the total power of his strike would have to increase in proportion to the size of the shinjuu vs the size of the root he cut.



Bro, I am figuratively speaking. If he had the same amount of power with more AoE he would cut the Shinju down like he cut the branches off, *this is not a scenario that has to make sense, its a 'if' scenario. *




> Mountains are far larger than the shinjuu roots that tobirama cut, so that's an invalid comparison about how pound for pound durable each are.  What you'd need to do is compare a 'mountain' (or rock formation) the relative size of the shinjuu roots that tobirama's water laser cut and show that it would not be cut by the water laser.



That's true. 



> Madara wasn't hit by the full force of it.  He was hit directly by it, carried, and then launched away after naruto expanded the technique.  After naruto expanded the technique madara wasn't hit by it despite the technique still existing and still expanding.  In PS's case, Naruto would throw it at the jutsu and it would collide with it and then naruto would make it burst.  After it bursts, the heat wave either slices PS in half, or gets completely stopped by the technique (probably the later will happen).  That would be taking the full force of the YRS.



*The technique expanding is what launched him away*. So he DID essentially get hit by its full blunt force. Naruto would throw it at it, and expand it, the force might stop PS in its tracks but it won actually be doing any damage to it. 



> Are you literally arguing that Sasuke could throw his katana at the shinjuu from one end and it would come out the other end?



I am aware that it was a plot device, but it just knocks down YRS's potency either way. 




> Why in the world is the bolded true?  8th gated gai's evening elephant's direct hits were even more potent than BSM Naruto's senpou bijuudama, proven by Gai punching madara through his onmyouton shield (which the bijuudama couldn't bust through) and then across the landscape.  Yet Madara sustained far less damage from that attack than he did from the YRS.



However keep in mind that its much harder to do visible damage with a punch then with a knife, in fact, its impossible. 



> Also, Kurama was wearing the entire PS, MAdara had to spread it out in order to cover the entire beast which required him to use the chakra for the insides for pure armor.  Not only that but we also know that Kyuusanoo had two PS arms, and those arms couldn't have been all armor since they move on their own.



And no, Kurama was not wearing entire PS. He was coated with PS ARMOUR. PS wears armour, and under that armour there is . Kyuususanoo had an extra two PS arms, though the arms where not even close to as big as PS's arms. 




> Why not the whole way?  We've seen Madara's PS do a 360 arc slash and the wave of the slash would not stop unless all of its power is used on something.



If it went the whole way, Madara wouldn't have been directly under the top half of the Shinju tree. 




> Again, why in the world does it successfully protecting him = he finished coating Kurama in the PS armor?



Because Kurama would have been injured if he didn't cover him, likewise, Madara would have also been injured/killed if he wasn't under the armour. 




> If the Kyuubi was wearing PS when the bomb went off, but its face wasn't covered, wouldn't we expect to see its face damaged?  If the Kyuubi was wearing PS when the bomb went off, wouldn't we expect MAdara to at least be capable of sliding the helmet down before the smoke cleared?



It was covering his face, and I guess he removed it to talk to Hashirama or whatever other reason.



> Blocking the dama with the swords definitely decreases its power as the blast has to go through the swords, and the blast isn't hitting PS at point blank.



Well he didn't receive the FULL blunt force of the attack, but most of it. 



> If it took 13 PS bijuudamas in order to destroy PS, then each is taking out about 7.5% of susanoo, and that would obviously leave noticeable damage.



PS *armour *. And I agree with the calculation, but I disagree that 7.5% would leave any noticeable damage at all.


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## Lurko (Aug 1, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He can't use susanoo or absorb chakra as the Ten Tails Jinchurikki



Oh where's the proof for that?


----------



## KyuubiFan (Aug 1, 2014)

We haven't seen anything aside from Mugen Tsukoyomi and more Limbo clones from Dual Rin'negan Shinju Madara, but it was made clear that he would defeat both Naruto and Sasuke. Not an easy fight, but his victory is certain.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 1, 2014)

I love how some people in this thread arguing against canon facts. Kaguya>madara and anyone else she has the biggest chakra reserves in the series(she is the progenitor of all chakra and sasuke was baffled about how she can even exist despite being full on ready to fight madara), is stronger than hagoromo by his own admission(who madara was trying/may have reached in power) and about feats her bones can override naruto's uber yang healing abilities while killing people...what the fuck did all those meteors madara dropped kill? Stop being delusional, dishonest ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).

Anyway whoever wins this it's gonna be extreme diff madara's crazy regen abilities vs naruto's insane power i am leaning towards madara. With that regen naruto would need to seal him imo. If madara did not have his MT stripped it's obvious he would win.


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## Ashi (Aug 2, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Oh where's the proof for that?



Asserting he can would be speculation since hasn't shown it or used it


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 2, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Asserting he can would be speculation since hasn't shown it or used it



So asserting that a character cannot use Jutsu after a powerup that he had used before the power up is speculation? What godawful logic is that? I guess current Naruto can't use a regular rasengan right? I guess he can't summon Gambunta anymore either right? I guess Sasuke cannot use Ametarasu anymore right? I don't think he can use Chidori Nagashi because he hasn't shown that either.........

Unless he specifically states that he cannot use them, or he at the very least implies that he cannot use them, its not speculation to say that he actually CAN use them, its just an assumption saying he can't.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> So asserting that a character cannot use Jutsu after a powerup that he had used before the power up is speculation? What godawful logic is that? I guess current Naruto can't use a regular rasengan right? I guess he can't summon Gambunta anymore either right? I guess Sasuke cannot use Ametarasu anymore right? I don't think he can use Chidori Nagashi because he hasn't shown that either.........
> 
> Unless he specifically states that he cannot use them, or he at the very least implies that he cannot use them, its not speculation to say that he actually CAN use them, its just an assumption saying he can't.



Naruto has shown Rasengan FYI


Sasuke has shown Amaterasu


Anywho there have been many scenarios where he could have shown preta or susanoo but he hasn't so his old doujutsi must have been sealed somehow (idk ask kishi)

If we used our intuition for every battle here we would have a lot of fanfics


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 2, 2014)

^^Madara couldn't use any 6 paths power with only one rinnegan. Only when he gained his other eye was when he finally used chibaku tensei, a deva path ability.

On topic, the manga made it clear that both naruto and sasuke would be needed to take down madara. Naruto by himself doesn't stand a chance.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Aug 2, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Naruto has shown Rasengan FYI



No he hasn't, the closest thing to a rasengan was a Shukaku sealing rasengan. 




> Anywho there have been many scenarios where he could have shown preta or susanoo but he hasn't so his old doujutsi must have been sealed somehow (idk ask kishi)



Its called PIS. If Madara used Susano'O and Preta it would have been impossible to beat him. His Doujutsu was not sealed in anyway, he is still has his Rinnegan and has used CT (Which means he can use the other paths). 



> If we used our intuition for every battle here we would have a lot of fanfics[/QUOTE
> 
> Its not a fanfic, its a fact. Saying that characters loose there powers after getting a power-up is utterly ridiculous.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> No he hasn't, the closest thing to a rasengan was a Shukaku sealing rasengan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 2, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Battlefield: Base of the Shinju
> Starting Distance: 50 Meters
> Restrictions: Mugen Tsukuyomi
> Knowledge: Manga for both
> ...



I don't see Naruto winning. 

He needed Sasuke to handle a one eyed Juubi Jinchuriki Madara who is severely weaker than the Madara ITT.

The Madara ITT easily handled this Naruto and Sasuke combined *without* trying to kill them.

Based on that I think Madara wins. Logically, if Madara's allowed his third eye, he should have Sasuke's jutsu and the additional eye should amplify his jutsu further.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Aug 2, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Learn to read[/URL]



First of all, that has nothing to do with reading, fail attempt at an insult. Secondly that was besides the point. 




> Anywho the plot excuse is just a cop out since Plot=Story being discussednso why are we going against it?



No one is going against it. Unless you want to show me where Madara explicitly states he cannot use Susano'O and Preta Path......

what you are doing is basically *assuming * that he cannot use them because he became the Jubi Jinchuriki........do you know how funny that sounds? 



> And it's not all that ridiculous I mean Obito lost Kamui after being the Ten Tails Jinchurikii



And he specifically stated that he couldn't use it, therefore it was canon. Ironically, Madara was able to use Kamui just fine. 



> Madara losing susanoo shouldn't that far fetched



See this is proof that you want him too loose Susano'O, but in reality, you have no actual evidence to support your claim. Your just assuming that because Obito lost the ability to use Kamui, Madara will loose the ability to use Susano'O and Preta Path. Sorry to tell you but it doesn't work like that.


----------



## RedChidori (Aug 2, 2014)

KyuubiFan said:


> We haven't seen anything aside from Mugen Tsukoyomi and more Limbo clones from Dual Rin'negan Shinju Madara, but it was made clear that he would defeat both Naruto and Sasuke. Not an easy fight, but his victory is certain.



Pretty much this .


----------



## Ashi (Aug 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> First of all, that has nothing to do with reading, fail attempt at an insult. Secondly that was besides the point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe there's a connection between the two?

Either canonicallyMadara had many chances to use All kinds of techniques but he never did

He used his truthseekers for defense and when he lostthem he resorted to limbo

At least I'm using observations not just my intuition

If every thread was based on intuition we might as well not have this section because we're literally telling characters how to fight because we could literally cherry pick their abilities


----------



## Amol (Aug 2, 2014)

Kaguya is supposed to be defeated by both Naruto and Sasuke.
Madara is weaker than her. She just overwhelmed him. 
Naruto faught extremely well against Madara.(He didn't even used his power upgrades ).
From this I say this fight can go either way but I am favouring Naruto extreme diff


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 2, 2014)

Amol said:


> Naruto faught extremely well against Madara.(He didn't even used his power upgrades ).
> From this I say this fight can go either way but I am favouring Naruto extreme diff



Madara held back a ton more than Naruto did.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Aug 2, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Maybe there's a connection between the two?
> 
> Either canonicallyMadara had many chances to use All kinds of techniques but he never did



And so what if he didnt? So you expect Madara to replicate every single feat he has ever done? It doesn't matter. 



> He used his truthseekers for defense and when he lostthem he resorted to limbo



Like I said, just because he hasn't used it as a Jubi Jinchuriki does not mean he can't. The fact that he used CT alone proves that he can use all the paths. And he has used Susano'O with Rinegan eyes, so that obviously doesn't affect Susano'O. Unless you have proof to why he can't use Susano'O, this shouldn't go on any further. 



> At least I'm using observations not just my intuition



No your speculating. 



> If every thread was based on intuition we might as well not have this section because we're literally telling characters how to fight because we could literally cherry pick their abilities



Characters have a set of abilities. We use whatever one of them they can use. That's cherry picking. Madara has used those before so there is no reason why he can't use them after a power-up, unless he states otherwise.


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## Ashi (Aug 2, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> And so what if he didnt? So you expect Madara to replicate every single feat he has ever done? It doesn't matter.



no just the feats that are consistent




> Like I said, just because he hasn't used it as a Jubi Jinchuriki does not mean he can't. The fact that he used CT alone proves that he can use all the paths. And he has used Susano'O with Rinegan eyes, so that obviously doesn't affect Susano'O. Unless you have proof to why he can't use Susano'O, this shouldn't go on any further.



One move does not gurantee an entire moveset of abilities



> No your speculating.



Speculation w/observation not w/ intuition



> Characters have a set of abilities. We use whatever one of them they can use. That's cherry picking. Madara has used those before so there is no reason why he can't use them after a power-up, unless he states otherwise.



Maybe you think so but we should go with what the manga has shown

Theres no reason he'd randomly say "I cant use susanoo"


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Aug 2, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> no just the feats that are consistent



That makes no sense. 




> One move does not gurantee an entire moveset of abilities



CT is a move from the paths. If he can use that, then he can use the other paths as well, including Preta. 





> Speculation w/observation not w/ intuition



Your speculating, that's that. But your speculation is worthless unless you have some sort of evidence to back it up. 





> Maybe you think so but we should go with what the manga has shown
> 
> Theres no reason he'd randomly say "I cant use susanoo"



Of course there is, for example, when Gai broke through his Goudama shield, he could have said "Its a bother that I can't use Susano'O in this state" or something like that. But he didn't, because he CAN use it, he just shows not to, that's what you call PIS.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 3, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> That makes no sense.




Feats can't be consistent?




> CT is a move from the paths. If he can use that, then he can use the other paths as well, including Preta.



Still doesn't prove he can use all 6 Paths since he couldnt absorb YRS




> Your speculating, that's that. But your speculation is worthless unless you have some sort of evidence to back it up.




Wheres your evidence Juubi Madara can use Other Paths/Susanoo

Bring me a scan



> Of course there is, for example, when Gai broke through his Goudama shield, he could have said "Its a bother that I can't use Susano'O in this state" or something like that. But he didn't, because he CAN use it, he just shows not to, that's what you call PIS.



The plot excuse seems to worl with every low showing Madara demonstrates


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 3, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Feats can't be consistent?



Its Jutsu we are talking about, why would a Jutsu be consistent? The character uses them whenever they are needed. There is no possible consistency. 






> Still doesn't prove he can use all 6 Paths since he couldnt absorb YRS



Yes it does. He couldn't absorb YRS becuase Naruto was in sage mode when he threw it. And like I said, just because he did not use it once or twice, does not mean he can't.





> Wheres your evidence Juubi Madara can use Other Paths/Susanoo
> 
> Bring me a scan



No, the burden of proof is on you. I can bring you a scan of Madara using Susano'O and Preta Path before becoming a Jubi Jinchuriki and it will be just as valid unless you can bring evidence to say otherwise. 




> The plot excuse seems to worl with every low showing Madara demonstrates



..........................


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## Fiiction (Aug 3, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Asserting he can would be speculation since hasn't shown it or used it



You're one of the worst debaters I know. So since madara gained a power up he can't use his past powers? Gtfoh. People like you ruin this forums.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> You're one of the worst debaters I know. So since madara gained a power up he can't use his past powers? Gtfoh. People like you ruin this forums.


Here's the thing though. Madara's powers are like 'Discard and Draw'. When he became the Juubi Jinchuriki, he gained abilities which made his Rinnegan and Sharingan abilities _redundant_ and discarded them. Why would he use Preta Path or Susano'o when his Gudodama basically do the same thing (nullifying all ninjutsu and providing him a solid defense) for instance? Like Obito, his previous techniques were discarded due to being the Juubi Jin.

You're adding in a bunch of fanon to make Madara stronger than he was actually shown.


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## Fiiction (Aug 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Here's the thing though. Madara's powers are like 'Discard and Draw'. When he became the Juubi Jinchuriki, he gained abilities which made his Rinnegan and Sharingan abilities _redundant_ and discarded them. Why would he use Preta Path or Susano'o when his Gudodama basically do the same thing (nullifying all ninjutsu and providing him a solid defense) for instance? Like Obito, his previous techniques were discarded due to being the Juubi Jin.
> 
> You're adding in a bunch of fanon to make Madara stronger than he was actually shown.



You guys fuckin use that "juubito couldn't use Kamui so madara can't use this bullshit".
He still has all his past powers, u already restricted mugen Tsukuyomi, now u wanna say madara can't use techs he used his entire life? That's just bullshit.


----------



## Hachibi (Aug 3, 2014)

JJ Madara can clearly use his past power as seen with Limbo,CT and Mokuton 

Madara win high-diff without MT, neg with


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> You guys fuckin use that "juubito couldn't use Kamui so madara can't use this bullshit".
> He still has all his past powers, u already restricted mugen Tsukuyomi, now u wanna say madara can't use techs he used his entire life? That's just bullshit.


Then tell me, WHY hasn't he used his past techniques? Why has he completely abandoned Susano'o and Preta Path even though they can help him? Why has he completed abandoned Mokuton?


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## Hachibi (Aug 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Then tell me, WHY hasn't he used his past techniques? Why has he completely abandoned Susano'o and Preta Path even though they can help him? Why has he completed abandoned Mokuton?



He used Mokuton after using MT in chapter 677


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2014)

Hachibi94 said:


> He used Mokuton after using MT in chapter 677


Actually, that technique was a subset of Mugen Tsukuyomi. All Madara did was control the Shinju's roots since he is the Shinju's Jin.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Aug 3, 2014)

You people can't say Madara cannot use his past powers just because he didnt chose to use them. Your going to need to find some sort of evidence to why he would _discard _ his old powers. He still uses attacks like Limbo and Mokuton so its not like he simply lost all his previous powers. It seems very convinient, for you people that say Naruto wins, to say that he lost two very useful Jutsu in particular when he gained the power-up. There is absolutely no reason to why he would lose Susano'O and The paths.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 3, 2014)

Saying Madara can't use preta is stupid. He still used rinnegan jutsu so no reason to take it from him. Never stated, shown, or hinted at so you can't say that. Just because he didn't use it doesn't mean he lost it. Kakashi didn't use doton wall to protect Sasuke, does that mean he lost it when he lost sharingan? No. We have no idea why Obito couldn't use Kamui, it makes no sense as they used it on Juubi Jin Madara. It's just best to avoid it and not make shit up to restrict Madara.


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## Ruse (Aug 3, 2014)

People are really desperate for Naruto to win this pulling any excuse out of their ass...

If Madara had been using his past abilities this manga would probably be over, Kishi had to restrict him somehow


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> You people can't say Madara cannot use his past powers just because he didnt chose to use them. Your going to need to find some sort of evidence to why he would _discard _ his old powers. He still uses attacks like Limbo and Mokuton so its not like he simply lost all his previous powers. It seems very convinient, for you people that say Naruto wins, to say that he lost two very useful Jutsu in particular when he gained the power-up. There is absolutely no reason to why he would lose Susano'O and The paths.


Limbo is a technique exclusive to Madara so of course he wouldn't lose it. But Susano'o? If he could still use it WHY didn't he use it against Gai, Monarch? And he never used a Mokuton: he manipulated the Shinju's roots since he's the Juubi Jin. If he created new Mokuton constructs, that would demonstrate he still possesses Mokuton.

Unless you can provide evidence he RETAINS these techniques, all you can do is speculate. Its already established that Juubi Jins lose part of their former techniques with Obito being unable to use Kamui.


----------



## IchLiebe (Aug 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Limbo is a technique exclusive to Madara so of course he wouldn't lose it. But Susano'o? If he could still use it WHY didn't he use it against Gai, Monarch? And he never used a Mokuton: he manipulated the Shinju's roots since he's the Juubi Jin. If he created new Mokuton constructs, that would demonstrate he still possesses Mokuton.
> 
> *Unless you can provide evidence he RETAINS these techniques, all you can do is speculate*. Its already established that Juubi Jins lose part of their former techniques with Obito being unable to use Kamui.



Unless YOU can provide evidence he doesn't retain them, then all YOU can do is speculate. You can't pull something out of your ass and expect people to prove you're wrong. You have no proof on your side. You say he gets restricted because Obito did but it's two different situations. 

1. Madara was a better jin with more tailed beast chakra.
2. Madara had 2 rinnegans. 
3. Madara was never stated, shown, or even hinted to be restricted.
4. Madara used rinnegan jutsu's and you're saying he can't use one specific one because you don't like it. You don't like him having preta and absorbing shit but tough luck. He can. 

I'm not even saying Madara wins this but your argument for why he loses is stupid. I think Naruto just speedblitz's and kills him. It's not crazy, and it has substance(He blitzed Kaguya and she has better reactions then him).


----------



## Ashi (Aug 3, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Its Jutsu we are talking about, why would a Jutsu be consistent? The character uses them whenever they are needed. There is no possible consistency.



Uh if he had these opportunities he could've used the jutsu

So




> Yes it does. He couldn't absorb YRS becuase Naruto was in sage mode when he threw it. And like I said, just because he did not use it once or twice, does not mean he can't.




He had already absored a Sage Mode Rasenshuriken before why couldn't he then?




> No, the burden of proof is on you. I can bring you a scan of Madara using Susano'O and Preta Path before becoming a Jubi Jinchuriki and it will be just as valid unless you can bring evidence to say otherwise.




I'm talkin juubi madara tho so non Juubi Madara is irrelevant here


> ..........................



Concession accepted


----------



## Fiiction (Aug 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Then tell me, WHY hasn't he used his past techniques? Why has he completely abandoned Susano'o and Preta Path even though they can help him? Why has he completed abandoned Mokuton?



BECAUSE OF PLOT. Why did he laugh and not use limbo or the yin lightning thunder on gai? PLOT. Kishi wants to bring in new things with juubi jins, he never said they lost their past powers at all.

He already used a god tier mokuton tech that overlapped the entire planet
Now tell me, what is a v3 Susanoo going to tank? Sasuke's PS fodderizes mountain ranged sized meteors, and Naruto blows up mountain sized meteors with a AOE larger than the shinju plot.

Dude you're a bad debater. Go on narutobase and try this shit. You'd get shitted on.


----------



## Ashi (Aug 3, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> You're one of the worst debaters I know. So since madara gained a power up he can't use his past powers? Gtfoh. People like you ruin this forums.



i'm sorry Your God isn't as powerfuls you want himto be but that's not my decision


It's Kishi's


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## Fiiction (Aug 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Limbo is a technique exclusive to Madara so of course he wouldn't lose it. But Susano'o? If he could still use it WHY didn't he use it against Gai, Monarch? And he never used a Mokuton: he manipulated the Shinju's roots since he's the Juubi Jin. If he created new Mokuton constructs, that would demonstrate he still possesses Mokuton.
> 
> Unless you can provide evidence he RETAINS these techniques, all you can do is speculate. Its already established that Juubi Jins lose part of their former techniques with Obito being unable to use Kamui.



Exactly, you use that juubito bullshit. Juubito isn't a perfect jin.

And MADARA USED KAMUI AS A JIN so your entire argument is shit and sad.

OK you bring him not using Susanoo, how come he didn't use limbo that gai can't perceive nor sense? PLOT.

Ummm you're wrong by the way, obito still had Kamui, he just couldn't move the juubi during dimensions. So hahahah ur lame.


----------



## Fiiction (Aug 3, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> i'm sorry Your God isn't as powerfuls you want himto be but that's not my decision
> 
> 
> It's Kishi's



I could care less for madara. He's a handwritten fictional character that can easily be erased once drawn, so no I don't refer to him as my god you dipshit.

And he's stronger than Naruto, infinite Tsukuyomi one shots. That's why the OP restricted it Lol 
And sasuke ..... Don't even start. His rinnegan tech has a cool down and he has a small range. So idk what you're getting at. Just stop.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> BECAUSE OF PLOT. Why did he laugh and not use limbo or the yin lightning thunder on gai? PLOT. Kishi wants to bring in new things with juubi jins, he never said they lost their past powers at all.


How do you know he didn't use either, a lot of the fight was off screen. Even though it isn't said, it is implied. 



> He already used a god tier mokuton tech that overlapped the entire planet


...except that isn't a Mokuton technique. God: Nativity of the Sea of Trees is just using the Shinju, which is a tailed beast, to extend its roots all over the world to get the victims of Mugen Tsukuyomi.


> Now tell me, what is a v3 Susanoo going to tank? Sasuke's PS fodderizes mountain ranged sized meteors, and Naruto blows up mountain sized meteors with a AOE larger than the shinju plot.


You just answered the question why Susano'o is useless to Madara. Including his Perfect Susano'o. If he still retained it, he doesn't have any use for it. Same with Preta Path. Don't you remember I originally argued that?


> Dude you're a bad debater. Go on narutobase and try this shit. You'd get shitted on.


Says the guy who only joined in January and is using speculation and fanfiction to justify his choice.



Fiiction said:


> Exactly, you use that juubito bullshit. Juubito isn't a perfect jin.


...Obito had perfect, full control over the Juubi. That made him a Perfect Jinchuriki. 


> And MADARA USED KAMUI AS A JIN so your entire argument is shit and sad.


He used Kakashi's Kamui, not Obito's Kamui.


> OK you bring him not using Susanoo, how come he didn't use limbo that gai can't perceive nor sense? PLOT.


Most of the battle was off screen. We don't know if he used Limbo or not. Susano'o wouldn't save him since Gudodama was already broken by Gai's strength too. Gudodama has superior defensive feats.


> Ummm you're wrong by the way, obito still had Kamui, he just couldn't move the juubi during dimensions. So hahahah ur lame.


That also means he couldn't use Kamui despite retaining it, doesn't it? Act like an adult, please.


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## Fiiction (Aug 3, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How do you know he didn't use either, a lot of the fight was off screen. Even though it isn't said, it is implied.
> 
> 
> ...except that isn't a Mokuton technique. God: Nativity of the Sea of Trees is just using the Shinju, which is a tailed beast, to extend its roots all over the world to get the victims of Mugen Tsukuyomi.
> ...



1) you don't know if he used Susanoo, a lot was off paneled. Gtfoh.

2) the juubi is the shinju, the juubi already used mokuton techs. So..

3)madara can't use perfect Susanoo without both eyes.

4) I joined in January, but I've read the manga  since it started. Let alone shippuden.

5)  Kamui is Kamui. Its a MANGAFACT THAT HE MOVED THE JUUBJ INTO THE KAMUI DIMENSION. Madara went to the Kamui dimension and brought the juubi with him. Something obito couldn't, if you don't accept the fact that madara moved the juubi through dimensions then I'm done arguing with you.

6) yup, battle was offscreen maybe madara used Susanoo.


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## Destiny Monarch (Aug 3, 2014)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Uh if he had these opportunities he could've used the jutsu
> 
> So



Or he could have used alternatives

So.......





> He had already absored a Sage Mode Rasenshuriken before why couldn't he then?



Because the scale between YRS and FRS is *enormous*. And as an Edo, he can't really suffer the side effects of absorbing too much Senjutsu either. 



> I'm talkin juubi madara tho so non Juubi Madara is irrelevant here



The only difference between the two is that Jubi Madara is a powered up non-Jubi Madara.




> Concession accepted



Concession to what? You made a completely irrelevant statement, and I don't know what worl is supposed to be. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Limbo is a technique exclusive to Madara so of course he wouldn't lose it. But Susano'o? If he could still use it WHY didn't he use it against Gai, Monarch? And he never used a Mokuton: he manipulated the Shinju's roots since he's the Juubi Jin. If he created new Mokuton constructs, that would demonstrate he still possesses Mokuton.



That's complete rubbish. So now a technique has to be exclusive so he can retain it? LOL. Why didn't he use it against Gai, I cannot say, most likely because Gai wouldn't stand a chance and his sacrifice would have been worthless and made him look bad. But just because he has not used it, does not mean he lost it. He didnt create new Mokuton constructs ironically, he used the same Mokuton Jutsu he used as an Edo except on a godly scale. 



> Unless you can provide evidence he RETAINS these techniques, all you can do is speculate. Its already established that Juubi Jins lose part of their former techniques with Obito being unable to use Kamui.



Seems your getting the roles mixed up. Unless YOU provide evidence that he looses these techniques, all YOU can do is speculate. Nothing of the sort was established, he said he cannot use Kamui, that's all. Canonically, Madara was able to use Kamui as a Jubi Jin.


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## BroKage (Aug 4, 2014)

Going strictly by feats Yang Seal BSM Naruto would only lose to Three-Rinnegan Juudara, via Mugen Tsukuyomi.

Otherwise Naruto has the better offense. FRS Bijuu Dama > Chibaku Tensei, 1000s of Tajuu Kage Bunshins > Limbo Hengoku. They both have Gudodamas. And none of Juudara's other attacks were very noteworthy unless you give him jutsus he only used before being Rinne Tensei'd.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Any Juubi Jinchuuriki would stomp current Naruto in the nuts.



Sorry for resurrecting an old post but....how exactly does someone get by saying this and not have anyone call it out?

Naruto in his base form with Rikudou power up was absolutely destroying Juubi Jin Madara before he absorbed the tree, and with Sasuke's help, was actually hurting his ass even after he absorbed it. It was only after he got the second eye was he too strong for them to fight


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 4, 2014)

Inuhanyou said:


> Sorry for resurrecting an old post but....how exactly does someone get by saying this and not have anyone call it out?
> 
> Naruto in his base form with Rikudou power up was absolutely destroying Juubi Jin Madara before he absorbed the tree, and with Sasuke's help, was actually hurting his ass even after he absorbed it. It was only after he got the second eye was he too strong for them to fight


If Madara was truly too strong for them to fight then, why didn't he just defeat both Naruto and Sasuke then? Why go through the distraction with the Chibaku Tensei to lose them?


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## Fiiction (Aug 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Madara was truly too strong for them to fight then, why didn't he just defeat both Naruto and Sasuke then? Why go through the distraction with the Chibaku Tensei to lose them?



TO ACTIVATE INFINITE TSUKUYOMI.


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## Ruse (Aug 4, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Madara was truly too strong for them to fight then, why didn't he just defeat both Naruto and Sasuke then? Why go through the distraction with the Chibaku Tensei to lose them?



Because he wanted to activate infinite Tsukuyomi as soon as possible instead of wasting time fighting them isn't that obvious.


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## Lurko (Aug 4, 2014)

Super Sayian man not getting the point.


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## Hachibi (Aug 4, 2014)

Former Obd Lurker. said:


> Super Sayian man not getting the point.



He is fighting a losing battle


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> You people can't say Madara cannot use his past powers just because he didnt chose to use them. Your going to need to find some sort of evidence to why he would _discard _ his old powers. He still uses attacks like Limbo and Mokuton so its not like he simply lost all his previous powers. It seems very convinient, for you people that say Naruto wins, to say that he lost two very useful Jutsu in particular when he gained the power-up. There is absolutely no reason to why he would lose Susano'O and The paths.





IchLiebe said:


> Saying Madara can't use preta is stupid. He still used rinnegan jutsu so no reason to take it from him. Never stated, shown, or hinted at so you can't say that. Just because he didn't use it doesn't mean he lost it. Kakashi didn't use doton wall to protect Sasuke, does that mean he lost it when he lost sharingan? No. We have no idea why Obito couldn't use Kamui, it makes no sense as they used it on Juubi Jin Madara. It's just best to avoid it and not make shit up to restrict Madara.



My sentiments exactly, the Naruto stance is shaky when you have to say that Madara won't use his powers for one reason or another... illogical reasons.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Limbo is a technique exclusive to Madara so of course he wouldn't lose it. But Susano'o? If he could still use it WHY didn't he use it against Gai, Monarch? And he never used a Mokuton: he manipulated the Shinju's roots since he's the Juubi Jin. If he created new Mokuton constructs, that would demonstrate he still possesses Mokuton.



He didn't need it against Gai, evidently. Madara never uses powers till he needs them.



> Unless you can provide evidence he RETAINS these techniques, all you can do is speculate. Its already established that Juubi Jins lose part of their former techniques with Obito being unable to use Kamui.



Actually all you're doing is speculating by stating that he has LOST these techniques. *You're* the one who is meant to provide evidence that Madara lost his other jutsu as that is a very big claim to make... one that should be made with strong evidence.

We're told Juubi Jinchuriki cannot phase through using one application of Kamui. Madara's ocular powers remained and aren't anything like Kamui.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 4, 2014)

Well, madara was shown to still be able to use mokuton jutsus as he used shin world of trees jutsu which was a massively stronger version of the jutsu he used shortly after being resurrected.

And i do not see how becoming a jj could prevent him from using ems techniques. Or rinnegan based ones as he used the highly advanced chibaku tensei and his own original limbo. He was also said to be the one to teach obito the six path ability of the rinnegan so i do not see why he coulnt possibly use shinra tensei or demon path missiles.

He was to strong so he was put under pis just like obito never used any rinnegan ability besides rinne tensei or why kaguya does not use bijudamas.


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## Fiiction (Sep 21, 2014)

I think kishi expects us to use common sense.

I mean seriously,  i doubt he'll have everyone use their past techniques every time they get an upgrade.


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## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2014)

Why the necro?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Sep 21, 2014)

Madara's only hope is Mugen Tsukuyomi, but otherwise, he gets destroyed.

I'll elaborate later.


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