# PS3 Hacked - Root Key Found!



## Ƶero (Jan 3, 2011)

> A hacker has published what he claims to be the root key of the PlayStation 3, leading to what some have speculated could be full root access to the game console without the need for external media.
> 
> The key, published by an individual calling himself or herself "geohot," is accompanied by a "hello world" piece of code.
> 
> ...







Unlike the previous jailbreak method, this allows anyone to run homebrew on any PS3, without hardware or software modifcation.

Just to get a picture of how serious this is, no console, ever, has had its private key cracked. This allows you to run any program or app on any PS3, without modifying the software or firmware. The only way to run homebrew on your 360 (and previously on the PS3) is to modify the firmware or software in some way.

The key allows anyone to run any app/game as an official and licensed program. What's worse (for Sony, at least) is it cannot be fixed. If they replaced the hardware, it would make all old PS3s unusable with new games.

From wiki



> On January 2, 2011, Hotz published the metldr key on his personal website, which allows users to decrypt and sign anything they wish on their Playstation 3 console using the key. This allows any developer to write and sign their own code to run on the Playstation 3 without Sony's consent.



This means the PS3 has become a pirate's dream console, overnight. All games can be decrypted and resigned, meaning you can run pirated games on any PS3 console, straight out of the box. Remember, it cannot be fixed.


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## Superrazien (Jan 3, 2011)

Wooohooo sign me up


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Jan 3, 2011)

The key, published by an individual calling himself or* herself* "geohot," is 


How rich, they actually added herself. Saying that theres a chance it can be a girl.

 Yeah, okay.


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## Mintaka (Jan 3, 2011)

Looks like sony will have to get the ps4 out extra early now.


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## ~Gesy~ (Jan 3, 2011)

i actually know a couple of people who said "ps3 is easy to hack".

don't know about anyone whose really that dumb to brag about it.


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## Charizard (Jan 3, 2011)

fuck yeah pirates!


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## Draffut (Jan 3, 2011)

~Gesy~ said:


> i actually know a couple of people who said "ps3 is easy to hack".
> 
> don't know about anyone whose really that dumb to brag about it.



People don't know what the fuck they are talking about.


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## BassGS (Jan 3, 2011)

I grew out of hacking. Just gets boring after a while and everytime a new update or game comes out the anti-piracy is too hard to crack.


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## emROARS (Jan 3, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> The key, published by an individual calling himself or* herself* "geohot," is
> 
> 
> How rich, they actually added herself. Saying that theres a chance it can be a girl.
> ...



Guys are salavating.

...*needs to cheak it isn't her friend* She's been trying to do this for months.


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## dream (Jan 3, 2011)

Such a pity that I sold my PS3.


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## Ƶero (Jan 3, 2011)

Let's just say Sony is in deep shit. This may increase PS3 sales but they hardly make much profit from hardware. Without game sales they're fucked.


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## xArunOwnsz (Jan 3, 2011)

This. Is. Amazing.
If this isnt true, Im gonna be pissed.

..But Sony's screwed.
So Im probably gonna be more pissed at Geohot.


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## Ichi Sagato (Jan 3, 2011)

Great. What does this mean for the rest of us who actually like playing quality games that are supported by generous budgets from their developers. Every time content is pirated, significant revenue is lost to the businesses producing them. The same reason the Naruto anime went to hell. Horrible production values due to high demand simply not resulting in revenue. The studio pumps out content to meet the demand but over manufactures because the majority of fans simply do not buy it. So the developers get stuck with a dilemma. Feed my myself and my family, or invest in better production.

Goodbye PS3.


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## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Man, this sucks. Hope to god this doesn't affect software sales.  Though, the "deterrent" of downloading 30-50GB files to play games could help counter act this.


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## Ƶero (Jan 4, 2011)

On the bright side this might spur Sony into starting the next generation of consoles. PS4 might be coming out sooner than we think.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 4, 2011)

Zero™ said:


> On the bright side this might spur Sony into starting the next generation of consoles. PS4 might be coming out sooner than we think.


Or sony could just kill consoles they find to be hacked? You could lose all your saved data, your system, the money you paid to get it hacked and your account. Smart move.

Hacking your system is stupid and wanting to force the PS4 out this early is also stupid, the 360 has been around longer and is still around, there's no reason for a system more powerful than it to update this soon. Game systems used to last a lot longer. 

I'll never hack my system to steal games for that system (ROMS for old systems or playing old games that wouldn't normally work is one thing, but I don't want to steal from developers)


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## Ƶero (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Or sony could just kill consoles they find to be hacked?* You could lose all your saved data, your system, the money you paid to get it hacked and your account. Smart move.
> 
> Hacking your system is stupid and wanting to force the PS4 out this early is also stupid, the 360 has been around longer and is still around, there's no reason for a system more powerful than it to update this soon. Game systems used to last a lot longer.
> 
> I'll never hack my system to steal games for that system (ROMS for old systems or playing old games that wouldn't normally work is one thing, but I don't want to steal from developers)



Did you even read the OP? 
I don't condone piracy but Sony have lost, there's no fixing this.


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## dream (Jan 4, 2011)

Zero? said:


> On the bright side this might spur Sony into starting the next generation of consoles. PS4 might be coming out sooner than we think.



Sony already has likely started on the next generation of consoles.  Or at least they have started making plans.


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## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *Or sony could just kill consoles they find to be hacked?* You could lose all your saved data, your system, the money you paid to get it hacked and your account. Smart move.
> 
> Hacking your system is stupid and wanting to force the PS4 out this early is also stupid, the 360 has been around longer and is still around, there's no reason for a system more powerful than it to update this soon. Game systems used to last a lot longer.
> 
> I'll never hack my system to steal games for that system (ROMS for old systems or playing old games that wouldn't normally work is one thing, but I don't want to steal from developers)



They can't know what's hacked and what isn't.  See, unlike other hacking methods for other consoles, this doesn't require modifying anything.  In other words, any piece of software can be made to look official, because of the key.  Hackers/Pirates can sign any game/software with this key and the system would think it is official and not hacked.  Sony can't change anything since it's hardware related and if they anything through software they "break" every console they've sold so far.

Who knows, maybe they'll find a solution to this.



~Gesy~ said:


> i actually know a couple of people who said "ps3 is easy to hack".
> 
> don't know about anyone whose really that dumb to brag about it.



Lol, no.  The PS3 isn't/wasn't "easy to hack".  It is the last console to be compromised.  Hell, if they had just changed one part of their security system, this would have been avoided.


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## Spirit (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Or sony could just kill consoles they find to be hacked? You could lose all your saved data, your system, the money you paid to get it hacked and your account. Smart move.
> 
> Hacking your system is stupid and wanting to force the PS4 out this early is also stupid, the 360 has been around longer and is still around, there's no reason for a system more powerful than it to update this soon. Game systems used to last a lot longer.
> 
> I'll never hack my system to steal games for that system (ROMS for old systems or playing old games that wouldn't normally work is one thing, but I don't want to steal from developers)



If nothing was gone, what was stolen?


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> They can't know what's hacked and what isn't.  See, unlike other hacking methods for other consoles, this doesn't require modifying anything.  In other words, any piece of software can be made to look official, because of the key.  Hackers/Pirates can sign any game/software with this key and the system would think it is official and not hacked.  Sony can't change anything since it's hardware related and if they anything through software they "break" every console they've sold so far.
> 
> Who knows, maybe they'll find a solution to this.



You guys know it all, its the same with Direct TV and their hacks to end all hacks...now those are mostly gone. 

I don't have to read the OP, the second that there's an update or a way to require something you can't get, then they'll figure it out. 

If they start to lose money they'll charge for online play. Where you going to go? XBOX? They already charge...

And if you system breaks, now you've got no warranty.

But despite what you might think, not everyone is willing to readily steal stuff like this. Especially as paranoid as they are with technology. Hell out of all my game playing friends there was one hacked PSP to play old NES games and that was it.


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## Ƶero (Jan 4, 2011)

Eternal Fail said:


> Sony already has likely started on the next generation of consoles.  Or at least they have started making plans.



Yeah, but now they have an incentive to really push those plans 

@CTK: I don't think you get how serious this is. This allows homebrew to be run without software or hardware modifications on any PS3. Replacing the hardware is also out of the question as it would make all old PS3s unusable with new games.


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## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> *You guys know it all, its the same with Direct TV and their hacks to end all hacks...now those are mostly gone.
> 
> I don't have to read the OP, the second that there's an update or a way to require something you can't get, then they'll figure it out.
> 
> ...


*

If you had read the OP, you would know this isn't a hack.  It gives anyone the authority to make their software look signed/legitimate.  Therefore, Sony can't differentiate between pirated stuff and legitimate stuff.  The only way to, is to use a new encrypting system.  But like I said before, they can't.  Not unless they want to make all current games and software unusable.*


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> If you had read the OP, you would know this isn't a hack.  It gives anyone the authority to make their software look signed/legitimate.  Therefore, Sony can't differentiate between pirated stuff and legitimate stuff.  The only way to, is to use a new encrypting system.  But like I said before, they can't.  Not unless they want to make all current games and software unusable.


Read the OP, I don't think you read my post. Either everyone will suffer for the loss of money or no one will.


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## Spirit (Jan 4, 2011)

"Punish all for the crime of one" has always been how things go forward.


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## Darklyre (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> You guys know it all, its the same with Direct TV and their hacks to end all hacks...now those are mostly gone.
> 
> I don't have to read the OP, the second that there's an update or a way to require something you can't get, then they'll figure it out.
> 
> ...



This isn't a hack. There is no modification whatsoever made to the PS3. What this key essentially does is let you take a random Blu-Ray disc, put a program on it, and give it Sony's authorization to play in a PS3. The PS3 will read the disc as completely legitimate, and even if Sony tried to monitor things via PSN, there's no way for them to tell if the disc is legitimate or not.


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## MrCinos (Jan 4, 2011)

Great news because I'll play Tales of Vesperia and Tales of Graces: F in english when traslation patches will be completed without need of jailbreaking my PS3.


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## xenopyre (Jan 4, 2011)

I've refrained from buying a PS3 until now becouse it was not hackable and i'm not going to pay 60€ for each game but this changes everything  i really hope it is true !!!


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## abcd (Jan 4, 2011)

Sony should have seen this coming when they downgraded their console


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Jan 4, 2011)

abcd said:


> Sony should have seen this coming when they downgraded their console


Ikr?

How u gone tell me this is PS3 When I cant play my god damn Ps2 games on it  em I suppose to go back and time and shit and get a launch console?

And how they hell are u gonna tell me that I cant watch pornography in it, and play a damn game at the same time? Why cant the damn game go on que while I watch some of it then go back to the game and so forth.


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## abcd (Jan 4, 2011)

Mexican God said:


> Ikr?
> 
> How u gone tell me this is PS3 When I cant play my god damn Ps2 games on it  em I suppose to go back and time and shit and get a launch console?
> 
> And how they hell are u gonna tell me that I cant watch pornography in it, and play a damn game at the same time? Why cant the damn game go on que while I watch some of it then go back to the game and so forth.



I was talking more about the linux dual boot 



> PS3 Firmware 3.21 will be available this Thursday. It will disable the “Install Other OS” feature that was available on the PS3 systems prior to the current slimmer models, launched in September 2009. This feature enabled users to install an operating system, but due to security concerns, we’re now removing this feature.
> 
> For most of you, this won’t have any impact on how you use your PS3. If you are one of the few who use the “Other OS” feature, or if you belong to an organisation that does, then you can choose not to upgrade your system. However, doing so will mean that the following features will not be available:
> 
> ...


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## Mexican God Lvl 3 (Jan 4, 2011)

abcd said:


> I was talking more about the linux dual boot



linux gaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy.


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## soulnova (Jan 4, 2011)

This means I can play PS and PS2 games with this Key??  D: I mean, we have a PS3 of the first consoles, but I have some friends with the slim version and they would love to hear this.


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## Bill_gates (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Or sony could just kill consoles they find to be hacked? You could lose all your saved data, your system, the money you paid to get it hacked and your account. Smart move.
> 
> Hacking your system is stupid and wanting to force the PS4 out this early is also stupid, the 360 has been around longer and is still around, there's no reason for a system more powerful than it to update this soon. Game systems used to last a lot longer.
> 
> I'll never hack my system to steal games for that system (ROMS for old systems or playing old games that wouldn't normally work is one thing, but I don't want to steal from developers)



You dont know what youre talking about
having the root key means theres no need to hack anything on the ps3 anymore. You can sign your code with the key and the ps3 will have no way of differentiating your code from official code.

its one thing to not wanna pirate games but dont make up things 
without knowing what youre saying


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Jan 4, 2011)

I can't see why would Sony care, they'd probably just sell more consoles now.


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## BrightlyGoob (Jan 4, 2011)

shit


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## kazuri (Jan 4, 2011)

|)/-\\/\/|\| said:


> I can't see why would Sony care, they'd probably just sell more consoles now.



When the PS3 came out im pretty sure the console sold for less than what it cost to make. They make their money from games.


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## lazer (Jan 4, 2011)

wow... i was going to get a 360 but NOW  so when is this wonderful brew coming out and how do i get it? 

It's strange that even though the ps3 is more advanced than the 360, it still got check mated pirate style  geohot better erase his/her traces


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## On and On (Jan 4, 2011)

> Just to get a picture of how serious this is, no console, ever, has had its private key cracked. This allows you to run any program or app on any PS3, without modifying the software or firmware.



They hadn't done this already?

w00t! the revolution is here!!


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## Velocity (Jan 4, 2011)

The Comedian said:


> They hadn't done this already?



The private keys are remarkably well guarded. Every piece of software licensed for use on the console uses that key, so letting hackers get their hands on the code is out of the question - if they do, you can't stop them without locking out use of every single piece of software that has ever been released on it.

Sony held off the pirates really well, but they've lost now. The hackers have won. I'm just waiting patiently for the PS2, Gamecube and Xbox emulators. Maybe even a Wii emulator, if they can get it using the Move.


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## CrazyMoronX (Jan 4, 2011)

The only thing I would be interesed in is playing some PS2, PSX, and maybe other emulated games on the console.

If that isn't possible I couldn't care less.


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## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 4, 2011)

Lyra said:


> The private keys are remarkably well guarded. Every piece of software licensed for use on the console uses that key, so letting hackers get their hands on the code is out of the question - if they do, you can't stop them without locking out use of every single piece of software that has ever been released on it.
> 
> Sony held off the pirates really well, but they've lost now. The hackers have won. I'm just waiting patiently for the PS2, Gamecube and Xbox emulators. Maybe even a Wii emulator, if they can get it using the Move.



How about emulating the PS3 on the PC, does this help with that?

* sorry if the question is stupid.


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## Utopia Realm (Jan 4, 2011)

Lyra said:


> The private keys are remarkably well guarded. Every piece of software licensed for use on the console uses that key, so letting hackers get their hands on the code is out of the question - if they do, you can't stop them without locking out use of every single piece of software that has ever been released on it.
> 
> Sony held off the pirates really well, but they've lost now. The hackers have won. I'm just waiting patiently for the PS2, Gamecube and Xbox emulators. Maybe even a Wii emulator, if they can get it using the Move.



Shits so cash it isn't even funny. Now for the heat to die down and this golden opportunity to cement itself.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 4, 2011)

Actually I think it's pretty cool.  Let people write their own apps or OS for the PS3, that doesn't cost Sony anything and it's great for indy developers.

As to the greater piracy question, a very simple solution: Pad every game to 50GB, glory of blu-ray.

Sure pirates can still download them, but good luck finding an easy way to host or download them.  Not to mention storing 50GB games will be a notable limitation as well.


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## Gnome (Jan 4, 2011)

Making all games 50gb would deter me from downloading, at least from downloading multiple games at a time. Regardless of what they do, I won't be modding my PS3, too much trouble.


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## soulnova (Jan 4, 2011)

You don't need to mod anything. Is at it is. Anyway, I think Evilmoogle is right. The only way to deter piracy for the moment would be heavier downloads.


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## Kathutet (Jan 4, 2011)

I'll stick to buying my shit, kthx


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 4, 2011)

It's not the only way, but it's an easy way and virtually cost free (granted it would only work for disc-based games).


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 4, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> Actually I think it's pretty cool.  Let people write their own apps or OS for the PS3, that doesn't cost Sony anything and it's great for indy developers.
> 
> As to the greater piracy question, a very simple solution: Pad every game to 50GB, glory of blu-ray.
> 
> Sure pirates can still download them, but good luck finding an easy way to host or download them.  Not to mention storing 50GB games will be a notable limitation as well.



Its funny that no one else has realized the space limitation on the high end a bluray can hold more than 200 gigs I think. Not sure if the PS3 can play them, but that's the thing, you can't hold more than one of these games.


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## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> I'll stick to buying my shit, kthx



You're not impressing anyone. You mean to tell me you're content on not being able to do what you want to do with a product you purchased? Yes, continue following the mindless mobs that do what they're told. You'd make a good pet boy.


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## Gogeta (Jan 4, 2011)

Too bad i can not afford PS3, lol


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## Kathutet (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> You're not impressing anyone. You mean to tell me you're content on not being able to do what you want to do with a product you purchased? Yes, continue following the mindless mobs that do what they're told. You'd make a good pet boy.


I don't aim to impress anyone so please keep those assumptions to yourself
I'm saying that I want my stuff neatly in a box, and *legit* so that I do not get fucked over if I need to have my PS3 fixed for whatever reason

Some people buy CDs just to have the real thing and maybe to support the artists and so do I

And honestly, I don't want to fuck around with something that isn't broken because I'd end up breaking the damn thing anyways

Like CrazyMoronX said, if I would like to play PSX games on it sure let's go but I still have those consoles and can play my fav games whenever whenever so I don't see a reason to screw with my PS3

Also I only buy games I really want which is maybe two a year max, not just about every new game so no I'm not trying to look like a rich douche here

lol, impressing.


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## abcd (Jan 4, 2011)

I think i will go for a ps3 and use it as a PC


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## very bored (Jan 4, 2011)

I think i will go for a *PC* and use it as a *ps3*


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## Velocity (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> You're a cornball fella. Your motherfuckng PS3 won't be in warranty forever. How can you void a warranty that ran out? You soft ass cake real talk. It's people like who dickride corporations doing whatever they say. If I want my PS3 to be a microwave also then i'll do it. If there was an opportunity to improve your ps3 you wouldn't do it? Man you come straight outta a comic book.



Just because you *can* hack your stuff doesn't necessarily mean you *have* to. It's people like you who dickride this whole anti-commercialism crap, fighting the corporations and their restrictive software, doing whatever you can to sound like a rebel. You try to make it sound cool, like the "in" thing to do. Like people who don't hack everything they own for the sake of it is a fool. Which is all a complete load of bollocks. You hack when you want to, if the hacking is advantageous to you. You don't hack a video game console just because the opportunity exists, you hack it so you can run emulators on it.

If you want your PS3 to be a microwave, by all means - just don't start whining to Sony when the damn thing blows up in your face. I'll gladly wait until there's a PS2 emulator myself.


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## Gnome (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> You're a cornball fella. Your motherfuckng PS3 won't be in warranty forever. How can you void a warranty that ran out? You soft ass cake real talk. It's people like who dickride corporations doing whatever they say. If I want my PS3 to be a microwave also then i'll do it. If there was an opportunity to improve your ps3 you wouldn't do it? Man you come straight outta a comic book.



I don't mind people hacking their systems and all that. It's when people do it only for the sake of pirating games they would normally buy. I hacked my wii, but only because games run better off the HDD then off a disc. And I've only pirated games for it that I would never buy, most of which I don't finish.


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## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Just because you *can* hack your stuff doesn't necessarily mean you *have* to. It's people like you who dickride this whole anti-commercialism crap, fighting the corporations and their restrictive software, doing whatever you can to sound like a rebel. You try to make it sound cool, like the "in" thing to do. Like people who don't hack everything they own for the sake of it is a fool. Which is all a complete load of bollocks. You hack when you want to, if the hacking is advantageous to you. You don't hack a video game console just because the opportunity exists, you hack it so you can run emulators on it.



That's right. I clearly understand what in details is listed within the warranty. And if I fucking choose to do something to my product that doesn't cause harm to other, then I'm entitled in doing so. Clearly people who hack/root their products know what the fuck they are doing and don't need to rely on a shitty warranty that the manufacturer barely tries to acknowledge.

There are number of ways or reasons people root their software. So don't try to pinpoint that shit to one thing. Get the hell out of here with that nonsense.



Lyra said:


> If you want your PS3 to be a microwave, by all means - just don't start whining to Sony when the damn thing blows up in your face. I'll gladly wait until there's a PS2 emulator myself.




This that dumb shit right here. if it goes wrong buy another one used. That fucking simple. Be an adult and use common sense next time k?




Gnome on Fire said:


> I don't mind people hacking their systems and all that. It's when people do it only for the sake of pirating games they would normally buy. I hacked my wii, but only because games run better off the HDD then off a disc. And I've only pirated games for it that I would never buy, most of which I don't finish.



Well we all have our reasons to unlock our device. You proved my point tho so thank you. As I said, if you had the opportunity to make your system run better would you do it?

You who found out running his games on a different format of cd makes the performance better. And you knew the risk. See I respect that.


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## Rabbit and Rose (Jan 4, 2011)

i want a ps5 i'll just wait for 20 years more


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## Velocity (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> That's right. I clearly understand what in details is listed within the warranty. And if I fucking choose to do something to my product that doesn't cause harm to other, then I'm entitled in doing so. Clearly people who hack/root their products know what the fuck they are doing and don't need to rely on a shitty warranty that the manufacturer barely tries to acknowledge.
> 
> There are number of ways or reasons people root their software. So don't try to pinpoint that shit to one thing. Get the hell out of here with that nonsense.



No, you get out of here with that nonsense. Do whatever the hell you like with your stuff, but don't start bitching at people who don't want to follow your lead. If Kenneth doesn't want to hack his consoles, he doesn't want to fucking hack his consoles. Is that simple enough for you?



> This that dumb shit right here. if it goes wrong buy another one used. That fucking simple. Be an adult and use common sense next time k?



Aha! And you call what I said "dumb shit"? Wow. "If I break it by hacking it, it's okay I'll just buy another and do it all over again"?

~snip~


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## Enclave (Jan 4, 2011)

soulnova said:


> This means I can play PS and PS2 games with this Key??  D: I mean, we have a PS3 of the first consoles, but I have some friends with the slim version and they would love to hear this.



This would require a PS2 emulator to be made by somebody for the PS3.


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## Enclave (Jan 4, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> 3. If the distributor did not really want me to hack the property, he would have provided more value-added features. (The justification given by _fail 0verflow_ for hacking the PS3.)



Actually, fail0verflow didn't claim that Sony should have included more value-added features.  They were upset that Sony was stripping away features, specifically OtherOS.  It's the same reason Geohot decided to put his efforts towards hacking the PS3.

Anyways, while some of what you say is true, you do seem to gloss over the people like myself who enjoy homebrew for perfectly legit reasons.  I'm not some crazy pirate, I buy my games.  Hell, even the SNES games I emulate on my PSP are games I currently own.

What this does for me is gives me the ability to condense my gaming from multiple systems down to fewer systems.  If my PS3 can play my old NES, SMS, GEN, SNES, ect... games, then I'll be glad for it, more space on my entertainment center.

Then there's various indy games that get developed which I also enjoy as well as various homebrew apps which also have their uses, again all of which are not about pirating.

So before you condemn everybody who partakes in the homebrew scene, remember that a large number of them are just like myself, people who enjoy homebrew but do not pirate.


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## Nemesis (Jan 4, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> History shows that when piracy on a given platform gets out of hand then it causes huge damage to the game market for that platform. This is common sense really. Look at the PSX and its war with anti-piracy. Once _Massive copyright infringement_ took hold at the turn of the century the number of games published shrank dramatically. In 1999 there were 100, in 2000 there were 78 and in 2001 there were just 33. The PSX remained in production till 2006, so software publishing for it basically collapsed just half way through it’s sales life.



As much as I don't argue the rest of your post but I think in reality a little thing called the PS2 may have something to do with that.

Also Geohot must have committed a number of crimes by now with his hacking.  Isn't about time he got locked up for it.  You know the law finally make a stand against hackers especially ones that work towards piracy.


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## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> You're not impressing anyone. You mean to tell me you're content on *not being able to do what you want to do with a product you purchased?* Yes, continue following the mindless mobs that do what they're told. You'd make a good pet boy.



How is he not being able to, "do what he wants"?  He chooses not to "hack" his console.  What's wrong with that?


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## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> How is he not being able to, "do what he wants"?  He chooses not to "hack" his console.  What's wrong with that?



Because he's afraid of losing his limited warranty.


----------



## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Because he's afraid of losing his limited warranty.



And?  Not everyone has the money to shell out for another console.  Yes, even a used one.  Hell, why should he risk losing his console in the first place?


----------



## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> And?  Not everyone has the money to shell out for another console.  Yes, even a used one.  Hell, why should he risk losing his console in the first place?



Then stay out the thread. Once his warranty end thats it anyway. no different than dropping the unit on the ground and breaking it.


----------



## Superrazien (Jan 4, 2011)

I have a friend selling a PS3 for $80. I think I'll just buy hers, and use that as my hacked one. Then keep the one I have now for legit stuff. Though I mostly just want it to play old games. I have no interest in stealing games that I want.


----------



## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Then stay out the thread.



No you.



Hand Banana said:


> Once his warranty end thats it anyway. no different than dropping the unit on the ground and breaking it.



Yes, because people are actively taking their consoles and breaking them by dropping them.  Where do you come up with this stuff?


----------



## WT (Jan 4, 2011)

Guess its time I finally bought a ps3


----------



## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> No you.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, because people are actively taking their consoles and breaking them by dropping them.  Where do you come up with this stuff?



The same place you pull out your waste of time rebuttals.


----------



## Blue_Panter_Ninja (Jan 4, 2011)

It's time for a big party.


----------



## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> The same place you pull out your waste of time rebuttals.



I'm sorry I'm (and others) are not edgy enough to, "stick it to the man!" like you.  But don't be asspained when others don't follow your lead.  And, I hardly call your rambling, "rebuttals".  So, get over your self.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> I'm sorry I'm (and others) are not edgy enough to, "stick it to the man!" like you.  But don't be asspained when others don't follow your lead.  And, I hardly call your rambling, "rebuttals".  So, get over your self.



Get over the fact you mad fella. And don't try to speak for others because you lack the information to hold a decent conversation. Go get help bro. This one is out of your league. Listen, there is a little boy wearing dresses.Maybe you can defend his argument there. Might be something you can handle boy k?


----------



## Qhorin Halfhand (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Get over the fact you mad fella. And don't try to speak for others because you lack the information to hold a decent conversation. Go get help bro. This one is out of your league. Listen, there is a little boy wearing dresses.Maybe you can defend his argument there. Might be something you can handle boy k?



No he is right. You are a jerk to a random guy for no reason at all and you come off looking very badly. He is entitled to use his money the way he wants to, whether you like it or not. He is not entitled to do with his PS3 what *you *want. If he is satisfied with buying two games a year, then there is no problem with that. Nor is there a problem with someone not wanting to hack his PS3.


----------



## Bill_gates (Jan 4, 2011)

Superrazien said:


> I have a friend selling a PS3 for $80. I think I'll just buy hers, and use that as my hacked one. Then keep the one I have now for legit stuff. Though I mostly just want it to play old games. I have no interest in stealing games that I want.



People are still not understanding the implications of the root key being found... probably because this is the first console ever to have this happen. 

To put it simply:
THERE IS NOTHING TO MODIFY. Once code is signed with the key your ps3 will recognize it as official software. You dont have to download or install any weird tool or any of that shit. 

Sony WILL NOT find a way around this. There is no way of sony fixing this or finding out that you are using it. Theres also no way of this bricking your ps3 because you dont even have to modify your firmware.


----------



## Dolohov27 (Jan 4, 2011)

Meh, i will continue to pay for my games.


----------



## ragnara (Jan 4, 2011)

I hope someone makes a tool to sign my own stuff soon, sadly I don't know enough about coding to use the key myself.


----------



## Draffut (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> You're not impressing anyone. You mean to tell me you're content on not being able to do what you want to do with a product you purchased? Yes, continue following the mindless mobs that do what they're told. You'd make a good pet boy.



I purchased a gun, it should be able to shoot anyone I choose in the head.


----------



## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 4, 2011)

This doesn't matter to me. I'll(my parents) still buy the video games, I enjoy reading the booklets and stuff that comes with the games.


----------



## Ƶero (Jan 4, 2011)

Bill_gates said:


> People are still not understanding the implications of the root key being found... probably because this is the first console ever to have this happen.
> 
> To put it simply:
> THERE IS NOTHING TO MODIFY. Once code is signed with the key your ps3 will recognize it as official software. You dont have to download or install any weird tool or any of that shit.
> ...



QFT. A lot of people aren't getting this.


----------



## Hand Banana (Jan 4, 2011)

Bill_gates said:


> People are still not understanding the implications of the root key being found... probably because this is the first console ever to have this happen.
> 
> To put it simply:
> THERE IS NOTHING TO MODIFY. Once code is signed with the key your ps3 will recognize it as official software. You dont have to download or install any weird tool or any of that shit.
> ...




Exactly. I modded my HD2 to run android without changing the rom. 



Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> I purchased a gun, it should be able to shoot anyone I choose in the head.



Fail analogy is fail. It would be you modding the gun. Now what you do is your business with the gun. Get it right owwwwww.


----------



## ExoSkel (Jan 4, 2011)

So help me understand. Does this mean you can download games on your ps3 and play it right away, or do you have to dl the game and put it on blank BR disc and play it on hacked ps3?


----------



## The Weeknd (Jan 4, 2011)

Now how the shit do I install this to my PS3?


----------



## Berserk (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Get over the fact you mad fella. And don't try to speak for others because you lack the information to hold a decent conversation. Go get help bro. This one is out of your league. Listen, there is a little boy wearing dresses.Maybe you can defend his argument there. Might be something you can handle boy k?



Resorting to "u mad?" and ad hominems.  Am I to assume you concede?


----------



## Superrazien (Jan 4, 2011)

Bill_gates said:


> People are still not understanding the implications of the root key being found... probably because this is the first console ever to have this happen.
> 
> To put it simply:
> THERE IS NOTHING TO MODIFY. Once code is signed with the key your ps3 will recognize it as official software. You dont have to download or install any weird tool or any of that shit.
> ...



So then are we just waiting on hackers, to get shit for us to download?


----------



## Draffut (Jan 4, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Fail analogy is fail. It would be you modding the gun. Now what you do is your business with the gun. Get it right owwwwww.



So, if I taped a dildo to the top, then I can shoot anyone I want with it?


----------



## Mist Puppet (Jan 4, 2011)

Sasuke_Bateman said:


> I enjoy reading the booklets and stuff that comes with the games.



Man, I thought I was the only one.


----------



## Havoc (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> So, if I taped a dildo to the top, then I can shoot anyone I want with it?


You always have to choice to shoot anyone you want.


----------



## Draffut (Jan 4, 2011)

Havoc said:


> You always have to choice to shoot anyone you want.



If you actually read my post before that one, I wanted it to be entirely legal to shoot whoever I want.  Having to reitterate it everytime I post though is just a waste of time, but I guess reading back a few posts is to much for some.


----------



## Havoc (Jan 4, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> If you actually read my post before that one, I wanted it to be entirely legal to shoot whoever I want.  Having to reitterate it everytime I post though is just a waste of time, but I guess reading back a few posts is to much for some.


Yes, it is too much, I'm glad you realize that.

Horrible analogy aside, why do you want to tape a dildo to your gun?


----------



## scerpers (Jan 5, 2011)

Does this mean I can play gamecube games on my PS3?


----------



## Elim Rawne (Jan 5, 2011)

Berserk said:


> All you've proven in this thread is that you have a good talent at being a 4chan reject.  Good job.



Real ballsy, calling out someone who can't respond


----------



## Superrazien (Jan 5, 2011)

Scorp A Derp said:


> Does this mean I can play gamecube games on my PS3?



I wonder if you can play 360 games? If so then Sony's not the only one screwed.


----------



## dream (Jan 5, 2011)

Superrazien said:


> I wonder if you can play 360 games? If so then Sony's not the only one screwed.



You can't unless a emulator is created.  Good lucky with that.


----------



## ExoSkel (Jan 6, 2011)

Superrazien said:


> I wonder if you can play 360 games? If so then Sony's not the only one screwed.


Apparently, that is not the case.


----------



## Ƶero (Jan 6, 2011)

> iPhone hacker publishes secret Sony PlayStation 3 key
> By Jonathan Fildes Technology reporter, BBC News
> PS3
> Continue reading the main story
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12116051


----------



## Berserk (Jan 6, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Real ballsy, calling out someone who can't respond



Eh.  Might as well.  It's not like his reply would have been anything more than another 4chan meme.  It would have been the same as no reply at all.


----------



## Esura (Jan 6, 2011)

Zero? said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12116051



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJv5qLsLYoo[/YOUTUBE]

OMFG OMFG!! I done shit myself!!

PC, Gamecube, SNES, Dreamcast, Saturn emulators here we come!!!!!


----------



## Adagio (Jan 6, 2011)

> Applied correctly, it would take billions of years to derive the private key from the public key, or to make a signature without knowing the private key, even when you have all the computational power in the world at your disposal.



Daym 

Well to some extent its comforting that the perpetrator of this hack is against piracy.


----------



## Sanity Check (Jan 6, 2011)

Is the root key a digital certificate?

I thoughts it was supposed to be "unbreakables"?


----------



## abcd (Jan 6, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Is the root key a digital certificate?
> 
> I thoughts it was supposed to be "unbreakables"?



Its a hardware key -- not related to the software


----------



## Sanity Check (Jan 6, 2011)

abcd said:


> Its a hardware key -- not related to the software




Looks like it took him more than a year to get it.



Now Sony can beat him over the head with the DMCA?  Pow~


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jan 6, 2011)

I want to load my SNES emulator on my PS3 already.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Looks like it took him more than a year to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> Now Sony can beat him over the head with the DMCA?  Pow~



Generally you cannot get in trouble for hacking your own console.  You paid for it, it's yours to do with as you please.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Generally you cannot get in trouble for hacking your own console.  You paid for it, it's yours to do with as you please.



The opinion of companies with lots of money and their lawyers disagree with you here.  They maintain that bypassing encryption on the device you "own" violates their IP rights.

Whether this is true or not largely depends on interpretation of thousands of pages of legal writings.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jan 6, 2011)

Yeah, them jerks think that even if you "own" the equipment, you are just using it on their terms. They have the "right" to control how you use it as they see fit. 

It's like a car maker saying you can't soup up your engine or modify it to be more fuel efficient. It's ridiculous.


----------



## Gnome (Jan 6, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Yeah, them jerks think that even if you "own" the equipment, you are just using it on their terms. They have the "right" to control how you use it as they see fit.
> 
> It's like a car maker saying you can't soup up your engine or modify it to be more fuel efficient. It's ridiculous.



There are cars like that. Hell, there are cars that you can "buy" but aren't allowed to have, you have to go the company and ask to use the car (that you purchased) for the day.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> The opinion of companies with lots of money and their lawyers disagree with you here.  They maintain that bypassing encryption on the device you "own" violates their IP rights.
> 
> Whether this is true or not largely depends on interpretation of thousands of pages of legal writings.



The lawyers as far as I know have yet to successfully litigate somebody for hacking a piece of hardware that they own.

Thus why you'll find special interest groups are pushing for tougher laws, specifically to make breaking the security on your own hardware illegal, because at this moment in time in most places in the world it's perfectly legal.


----------



## Adagio (Jan 6, 2011)

Well its quite normal for them to make such claims when steps forward such as this one open up a massive number of possibilities for an easier way for pirateable content.. (To be honest I'm neither here or there on the whole piracy debate..)
With the increase of higher speed internet 50GB per game downloads are not going to stop everyone. The person responsible for this hack did say he was deeply against piracy, but I'm wondering if he really said this to avoid legal backlash or if he really meant it.


----------



## CrazyMoronX (Jan 6, 2011)

Gnome on Fire said:


> There are cars like that. Hell, there are cars that you can "buy" but aren't allowed to have, you have to go the company and ask to use the car (that you purchased) for the day.


 

What kind of dumb asshole would buy one of those?


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

CrazyMoronX said:


> What kind of dumb asshole would buy one of those?



Nobody would, unless Gnome on Fire can back up their statement with proof I'd say we shouldn't believe him.


----------



## Zhariel (Jan 6, 2011)

Time to pick up a PS3 from work it seems.


----------



## Nemesis (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Generally you cannot get in trouble for hacking your own console.  You paid for it, it's yours to do with as you please.



Terms and conditions say hi.

Breach them and it is no different than breaching a signed contract which you can be put in trouble.  Also there are parts of each computer and console hardware that the customer NEVER owns.  (Much like consumers never own software)


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

Nemesis said:


> Terms and conditions say hi.
> 
> Breach them and it is no different than breaching a signed contract which you can be put in trouble.  Also there are parts of each computer and console hardware that the customer NEVER owns.  (Much like consumers never own software)



You'll note, things such as EULA's have not been successfully held up in court.  You cannot be subject to a legally binding contract by clicking a button saying "I Agree".

Also, regarding your statement about software and how the customer doesn't own it.  In most places in the world you would be wrong.  You bought your copy and you can do what you want with it as long as that does not include redistributing copies yourself.

If you want to hack to pieces the software and security?  You're well within your rights to do so, you just are not allowed to distribute that hacked software.


----------



## Gnome (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Nobody would, unless Gnome on Fire can back up their statement with proof I'd say we shouldn't believe him.



It isn't so much the car itself people buy, but the rights to use the car. Like the Ferrari FXX, Ferrari keeps the car at their factory where it's constantly maintained and updated. 

I'm just thinking that maybe Sony/MS/Nintendo have the same mentality to where they believe they still partially own the console because they constantly provide you with firmware updates and the like.

And rich people would buy these cars because they cost upwards of $2million.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

Gnome on Fire said:


> It isn't so much the car itself people buy, but the rights to use the car. Like the Ferrari FXX, Ferrari keeps the car at their factory where it's constantly maintained and updated.
> 
> I'm just thinking that maybe Sony/MS/Nintendo have the same mentality to where they believe they still partially own the console because they constantly provide you with firmware updates and the like.
> 
> And rich people would buy these cars because they cost upwards of $2million.



Regarding the Ferrari, you do not buy it as you said.  Ferrari essentially rents it to them for a 1 time fee.  You'll note that there's contracts that need to be signed and all that jazz.  No such thing applies to the console industry.  Get back to me once you have to sign a contract to buy a game console.  Until that point, it's perfectly legal to rip it apart however you want.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

I can guarantee you Sony is of the opinion that they (and they alone) own the OS/software/firmware on the PS3 and that you simply own a license to use these materials.

As to whether this is true or enforceable, that differs depending on who you ask.


> *The court held that Zeidenberg did accept the offer by clicking through.* The court noted, "He had no choice, because the software splashed the license on the screen and would not let him proceed without indicating acceptance." The court stated that Zeidenberg could have rejected the terms of the contract and returned the software. The court, in addition, noted the ability and "the opportunity to return goods can be important" under the UCC.
> [edit] See also



/Edit:

At least in the US EULAs seem pretty enforcable.

Feldman v. Google, Inc.
In re RealNetworks, Inc. Privacy Litigation
Hotmail Corp. v. Van$ Money Pie
Lan Sys., Inc. v. Netscout Serv. Level Corp.
Caspi v. Microsoft, LLC,
Register.com, Inc. v. Verio, Inc.
Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp.
ProCD v. Zeidenberg
PDC Laboratories Inc. v. Hach Co.

All maintain clicking "I agree" constitutes acceptance of an EULA that would otherwise be legally enforceable contract.


----------



## Gnome (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Regarding the Ferrari, you do not buy it as you said.  Ferrari essentially rents it to them for a 1 time fee.  You'll note that there's contracts that need to be signed and all that jazz.  No such thing applies to the console industry.  Get back to me once you have to sign a contract to buy a game console.  Until that point, it's perfectly legal to rip it apart however you want.



Oh, I know its perfectly legal, I've done it. I just wouldn't put it past the console industry to contemplate doing something like that. Hell, not long ago they were thinking of making people pay for game demos.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> I can guarantee you Sony is of the opinion that they (and they alone) own the OS/software/firmware on the PS3 and that you simply own a license to use these materials.
> 
> As to whether this is true or enforceable, that differs depending on who you ask.
> 
> ...



Perhaps in recent years the US has tightened it's laws up regarding the likes of EULA's, I wouldn't know as I don't keep up to date on US copyright laws.  Most countries though, EULA's are not easily enforced.

I know for a fact that companies have tried to here in Canada to sue people for breaking their security, the courts ruled that it was fair use though.



Gnome on Fire said:


> Oh, I know its perfectly legal, I've done it. I just wouldn't put it past the console industry to contemplate doing something like that. Hell, not long ago they were thinking of making people pay for game demos.



Oh they aren't contemplating it, they're flat out attempting it.  There's special interest groups always trying to get laws regarding the likes of EULA's and their ilk to be tightened up as much as they can specifically to make it illegal to do these sorts of things.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> I know for a fact that companies have tried to here in Canada to sue people for breaking their security, the courts ruled that it was fair use though.


You sure about that?  Here's a Canadian example.



Rudder v. Microsoft Corporation


> The court determined that the Member Agreement was enforceable  ... [to] not uphold the agreement “would lead to chaos in the marketplace, render ineffectual electronic commerce and undermine the integrity of any agreement entered into through this medium”


----------



## Dionysus (Jan 6, 2011)

There is nothing much Sony can do other than stop people from commercially selling "official" software in the open.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> You sure about that?  Here's a Canadian example.
> 
> 
> 
> Rudder v. Microsoft Corporation



I'm quite certain of it.  I'll see if I can find an example at a later time.  I remember very well hearing about it in the news.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> There is nothing much Sony can do other than stop people from commercially selling "official" software in the open.



Selling?  This I'm sure they can stop.

Whether they can (or will try to) stop people from making and giving away software is a harder question.  I can think of a few ways to do this but it's trickier.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> Selling?  This I'm sure they can stop.
> 
> Whether they can (or will try to) stop people from making and giving away software is a harder question.  I can think of a few ways to do this but it's trickier.



They most definitely can stop people from selling software.  It's the hacking of the systems and the creation/giving away of the software that Sony doesn't have a lot of recourse against.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> They most definitely can stop people from selling software.  It's the hacking of the systems and the creation/giving away of the software that Sony doesn't have a lot of recourse against.



I can think of a few ways they could cause problems for people using "official" unofficial software if they want to.  I'm not sure it would be worth the PR hit though.


----------



## Yagami1211 (Jan 6, 2011)

Great now we can download gigantic 40+ gb Blu-Ray iso


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 6, 2011)

Dionysus said:


> There is nothing much Sony can do other than stop people from commercially selling "official" software in the open.


Good luck not filling up your Harddrive with that stuff. And blank Blu-Ray disks cost so much that unless they drop very fast it would be almost more advantageous to buy the games.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> I can think of a few ways they could cause problems for people using "official" unofficial software if they want to.  I'm not sure it would be worth the PR hit though.



You mean that they could change their private key.  They could do that, if they wanted to invalidate all previously sold software.

That's as you have already alluded to would be impractical at best and criminal at worst.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> You mean that they could change their private key.  They could do that, if they wanted to invalidate all previously sold software.
> 
> That's as you have already alluded to would be impractical at best and criminal at worst.



You're just not being creative enough.  All they really need to do is release system software 3.6 that has a list of all existing licensed games (and a checksum).  And a feature to report the list of installed software.  

Launching a new program for the first time, check and see if it's on the list.  If it isn't, report it to Sony.  If it's on the list of "known cracked versions of software" brick the PS3.  If it's on the list of "known new games not in OS 3.6" approve it and launch normally.  Otherwise refuse to launch the game (and report more information about it to Sony to find out more later).

Require all new games to need OS 3.6 or higher and you're set.

There would be ways around this as well of course, but generally speaking brick a few people's PS3s and people will get pretty nervous about using cracked content.

(Hell, a simpler way would be to simply release fake cracked/pirated games of their own that brick the PS3s when you launch them.  But that's probably on the darker side.  They'd have to use a 3rd party for this  )


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> You're just not being creative enough.  All they really need to do is release system software 3.6 that has a list of all existing licensed games (and a checksum).  And a feature to report the list of installed software.
> 
> Launching a new program for the first time, check and see if it's on the list.  If it isn't, report it to Sony.  If it's on the list of "known cracked versions of software" brick the PS3.  If it's on the list of "known new games not in OS 3.6" approve it and launch normally.  Otherwise refuse to launch the game (and report more information about it to Sony to find out more later).
> 
> ...



Not Sony, we're forgetting these are the people who erased all of the work done in the Star Wars MMORPG on a whim.


----------



## abcd (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> You mean that they could change their private key.  They could do that, if they wanted to invalidate all previously sold software.
> 
> That's as you have already alluded to would be impractical at best and criminal at worst.



Any change they do would affect all previously sold software .... Other wise this is not such a big issue at all .....

Easiest way would be to give everyone a new copy of the game in exchange for the old one with a new encryption...


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Jan 6, 2011)

abcd said:


> Any change they do would affect all previously sold software .... Other wise this is not such a big issue at all .....
> 
> Easiest way would be to give everyone a new copy of the game in exchange for the old one with a new encryption...


There have been changes like that before, you could just have to download a new copy, it wouldn't effect anyone offline and the like.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> You're just not being creative enough.  All they really need to do is release system software 3.6 that has a list of all existing licensed games (and a checksum).  And a feature to report the list of installed software.
> 
> Launching a new program for the first time, check and see if it's on the list.  If it isn't, report it to Sony.  If it's on the list of "known cracked versions of software" brick the PS3.  If it's on the list of "known new games not in OS 3.6" approve it and launch normally.  Otherwise refuse to launch the game (and report more information about it to Sony to find out more later).
> 
> ...



You're speaking of a whitelist.  They do not work very well and are generally beaten incredibly quickly by hackers.  They're more trouble than they're worth.

Also the bricking suggestion, people in the homebrew scene make programs like this all the time.  If you do even a tiny bit of research on what you're downloading this no longer becomes a risk.



abcd said:


> Any change they do would affect all previously sold software .... Other wise this is not such a big issue at all .....
> 
> Easiest way would be to give everyone a new copy of the game in exchange for the old one with a new encryption...



The mind boggling cost of this option alone makes it impossible.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> You're speaking of a whitelist.  They do not work very well and are generally beaten incredibly quickly by hackers.  They're more trouble than they're worth.


Again, not if the people making games are at all creative.  Can they be beaten?  Of course.  But the more work required makes it less worthwhile to the people doing the cracking.

And a whitelist built in to the OS of the PS3 would probably work quite well by the way.  Unless you're cracking the OS (which is done but even easier for Sony to track).



Enclave said:


> Also the bricking suggestion, people in the homebrew scene make programs like this all the time.  If you do even a tiny bit of research on what you're downloading this no longer becomes a risk.


I wouldn't personally suggest that Sony try to influence indy gamers in this regard (people writing new games that they want to release to the public).

However people that are trying to download cracked versions of existing games would be a prime target.  This is also the market that generally does the least research of what they're getting.

Look at computers as an example.  What percentage of people that are looking for and downloading cracked games or warez end up with viruses or spyware on their machine?

Same thing here except X% of the viruses or spyware will just brick the machine.


----------



## Yakari Kaiya Nicometo (Jan 6, 2011)

haha ohh shit thats awesome!


----------



## Enclave (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> Again, not if the people making games are at all creative.  Can they be beaten?  Of course.  But the more work required makes it less worthwhile to the people doing the cracking.
> 
> And a whitelist built in to the OS of the PS3 would probably work quite well by the way.  Unless you're cracking the OS (which is done but even easier for Sony to track).



I'm just saying, a whitelist has been attempted before by Nintendo with the DSi.  It didn't last long at all until it was easily bypassed.

Also a well built CFW wouldn't be detectable by Sony.  It really would be more work than it's worth for Sony to put in a whitelist.

All you've suggested are ideas for Sony to slow down the hackers, the problem though is that the best they'd do is slow the hackers down by a few days.  It's insignificant, especially with the severity level of the crack on the PS3.  This is an unprecedented breach of the console, the best Sony can do to fight it is to simply ride this out and put in a damn random number generator into the PS4 and not include PS3 BC on the new console.

That said, this isn't the end of the world for Sony and Sony knows that.  You'll note, the 360 and the Wii were both hacked years ago and they survived just fine.  The PS3 even with it being cracked wide open is still going to do just fine.  Sony will just have to have learned from it's lessons.  It got a bloody lip in the last couple weeks, too bad.




> I wouldn't personally suggest that Sony try to influence indy gamers in this regard (people writing new games that they want to release to the public).
> 
> However people that are trying to download cracked versions of existing games would be a prime target.  This is also the market that generally does the least research of what they're getting.
> 
> ...



Then if it's ever found out that Sony was responsible for this they'd open themselves up to a class action lawsuit.

Not going to happen.


----------



## Dionysus (Jan 6, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> Selling?  This I'm sure they can stop.
> 
> Whether they can (or will try to) stop people from making and giving away software is a harder question.  I can think of a few ways to do this but it's trickier.


It's much harder if it's not in the open. People still make money selling software on the black market. It becomes a fight against organized crime then.

And, short of Sony giving out new PS3s with new keys, they can't do anything effective. Not without being sued to hell or spending billions on new hardware. Fighting pirated games will remain the same fight--often pissing against the wind--but general software like OSs and homebrew programs, there is nothing Sony can do to stop people from giving them out. Perhaps Sony will release a new version of the PS3, but there are, what 40 million already sold? Any firmware update will be useless, as it will have to be signed with known keys. The firmware or OS changes can now be decrypted and any funny attempt to alter how the PS3 runs can be deduced and counter-tactics updated.

If you can stop people from running whatever code they want on their PS3s now, you can also do it for the NDS (but, this time without special external hardware), and, in a sense, a PC. What was found here is set in stone, there's no way Sony can change it without changing hardware.

Your white list idea is similar to Ubisoft DRM that checked every file for integrity and phoned home to enable the game to run or not. This was still cracked, but with difficulty due to the encryption being unbroken. (The easiest method was to spoof the home server, if I recall.) That the encryption is useless for the PS3 removes this option.

Sony actually brought this onto themselves, as far as I'm concerned, by taking away OtherOS support on the PS3. In order to get that support back, these people had to find the keys, and by doing so also blew the door off for piracy. The Linux crew didn't like the nasty firmware update taking away a feature that compelled the purchase in the first place. I can't believe anyone would actually feel bad that this happened to Sony.


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## alchemy1234 (Jan 6, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Great. What does this mean for the rest of us who actually like playing quality games that are supported by generous budgets from their developers. Every time content is pirated, significant revenue is lost to the businesses producing them. The same reason the Naruto anime went to hell. Horrible production values due to high demand simply not resulting in revenue. The studio pumps out content to meet the demand but over manufactures because the majority of fans simply do not buy it. So the developers get stuck with a dilemma. Feed my myself and my family, or invest in better production.
> 
> Goodbye PS3.



this... 10 char.


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## Sanity Check (Jan 6, 2011)

Enclave said:


> Generally you cannot get in trouble for hacking your own console.  You paid for it, it's yours to do with as you please.




There are laws which state what a person can and can't do regarding reverse engineering things like ps3 consoles.  

Generally, they're defined by the (Digital Millennium Copyright Act).  Parts dealing with _intent_ are somewhat open to interpretation, though, which muddles the issue.

In some instances: yes you can get in trouble for hacking something.


----------



## Ƶero (Jan 7, 2011)

> Geohot demos homebrew on 'jailbroken' PS3, Sony vows to 'fix' via software update (video)
> By Ross Miller posted Jan 7th 2011 10:14AM
> We just saw how you can now add an Install Package Files option to the PS3 using some custom firmware, but that darn hacker George "Geohot" Hotz has taken it a step further by demonstrating homebrew in a quick, Mr. Blurrycam-approved video. It's a barebones app that only says "sup dawg, it's geohot," but in reality it's a pretty huge step. Geohot's provided the file on his website along with a copy of the METLDR root key that enables the homebrew. Sony, meanwhile, has issued a statement saying it'll "fix the issues through network updates, but because this is a security issue, we are not able to provide you with any more details." This runs counter to what pytey from fail0verflow (the famed group that kickstarted this new round of hacking) just told the BBC, "the only way to fix this is to issue new hardware... Sony will have to accept this." Hey, at least you'll be in good company, eh Sony? Check out geohot's proof of concept video after the break.




[YOUTUBE]UkLSXsCKDkg[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Mider T (Jan 11, 2011)

Guys this thread, and section in general, might interest you.


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## Enclave (Jan 11, 2011)

Mider T said:


> Guys this thread, and section in general, might interest you.



It's a PS3, not an iPS3


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## Keollyn (Jan 11, 2011)

Doesn't effect me since my life doesn't evolve around games anymore.


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## Ronin0510 (Jan 12, 2011)

Well the the roller coaster ride of the court system just started LOL.


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## Xion (Jan 12, 2011)

Ichi Sagato said:


> Great. What does this mean for the rest of us who actually like playing quality games that are supported by generous budgets from their developers. Every time content is pirated, significant revenue is lost to the businesses producing them. The same reason the Naruto anime went to hell. Horrible production values due to high demand simply not resulting in revenue. The studio pumps out content to meet the demand but over manufactures because the majority of fans simply do not buy it. So the developers get stuck with a dilemma. Feed my myself and my family, or invest in better production.
> 
> Goodbye PS3.



Holy whining baby diapers Batman!

If we were to listen to you on these matters we'd be led to believe that copyright infringement is the most destructive economic development of the 21st century!


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## Mider T (Jan 12, 2011)

Enclave said:


> It's a PS3, not an iPS3



The section isn't just for vidya.


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## Vriska (Jan 12, 2011)

oh                               my


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## Phunin (Jan 12, 2011)

apparently supports GeoHot and is mirroring the files. He goes on to throw lulz at Sony for their attempt at silencing the hackers. GG Sony. Hello PS3.


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## Ƶero (Jan 13, 2011)

Looks like Sony are getting desperate now that they've realised they can't fix this. It's futile, once something hits the internet, it's there to stay.


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## Antlion6 (Jan 13, 2011)

Its useless for Sony to do anything now, although I personally hope they succeed in their action against this guy, even if it looks insubstantial.

His claims that he did it for educational reasons, even if true, are laughable. He knew full well that the root key would be used for hacking. It was an obvious result of releasing the root key onto the internet, but he did it anyway.

Although actually, depending on how the law regarding intention is framed over there, It may not be an entirely lost cause.


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## ExoSkel (Jan 14, 2011)

Geohot on G4's Attack of the Show.


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## Stalin (Jan 14, 2011)

I really doubt this is going to kill the ps3. I can symphatize with sony but fighting hackers won't solve anything. Its best to let them be. Seriously, why would you only pirate games and at least support your favorite developers? Its not like every developer studio is full of hacks, theres still plenty of talent that deserves profit.


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## Ƶero (Jan 14, 2011)

ExoSkel said:


> Geohot on G4's Attack of the Show.



"When's the PSP2 coming out ?"


----------



## Velocity (Jan 14, 2011)

The Cheat said:


> I really doubt this is going to kill the ps3. I can symphatize with sony but fighting hackers won't solve anything. Its best to let them be. Seriously, why would you only pirate games and at least support your favorite developers? Its not like every developer studio is full of hacks, theres still plenty of talent that deserves profit.



These people don't care about who deserves profit. All they care about is getting stuff for free. Sony's only choice is to release the PS4 by Christmas next year and make it literally impossible to hack - serial codes for every game, automatic weekly updates that lock out all functionality unless completed... Make it a total bitch to hack with constant updates, and add in a special code that kills the console if the updates are circumvented, so even if people do manage to hack it they're left with a dead console.

Or maybe EA and Activision will set up and instead turn to microtransactions for £20 retail games, leaving only 20% of the game on the disc and requiring consumers to pay another £50~£60 to download the rest of the game from the PSN Store.

Either way, all these hackers are doing is ultimately ruining everything for everyone else. Between them and the damage of second-hand sales, it's no wonder companies are so reliant on DLC for profit these days.


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## soulnova (Jan 14, 2011)

> Sony's only choice is to release the PS4 by Christmas next year and make it literally impossible to hack



Just like the PS3, right? I mean, they locked all doors! The only way to use "hack" it was by using the keys. 




> Make it a total bitch to hack with constant updates, and add in a special code that kills the console if the updates are circumvented



Yes, of course! Because there's no way someone might not want to hack something like that! Is not a "Bring it!" challenge at all! 




> I can symphatize with sony but fighting hackers won't solve anything. Its best to let them be.



 Its a damn shame I can't give you rep.


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## Stalin (Jan 14, 2011)

I am a mainly second hand gamestore buyer.


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## Xion (Jan 14, 2011)

To all the whiners, apparently you think this is all about piracy and not more along the lines of jailbreaking your iPhone (which is legal in the U.S.).

Fact is, Sony advertised the ability originally to run different OSes on your PS3 and then they take it away because they are assholes. So someone is motivated to allow that again and once they are successful Sony sues.

Then you have all the people come here who think it's the worst thing ever for someone to be able to run software they want (like originally advertised) on a machine they own.

L2Read and L2Not2Vote pl0x.


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## Terra Branford (Jan 14, 2011)

If only I had a PS3 



> How rich, they actually added herself. Saying that theres a chance it can be a girl.


There are lots of hackers/modders that are girls.


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## Sanity Check (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> These people don't care about who deserves profit. All they care about is getting stuff for free. Sony's only choice is to release the PS4 by Christmas next year and make it literally *impossible to hack*
> 
> Either way, all these hackers are doing is ultimately ruining everything for everyone else. Between them and the damage of second-hand sales, it's no wonder companies are so reliant on DLC for profit these days.




Historically, when Sony attempts to make things "impossible to hack" mass lolz ensues.   

Sony spent a lot of money on their CD DRM protection scheme that could be defeated by a magic marker / piece of tape.



> Sony BMG Music's controversial copy-protection scheme can be defeated with a small piece of tape, a research firm said Monday in a demonstration of the futility of digital rights management (DRM).
> According to Gartner analysts Martin Reynolds and Mike McGuire, *Sony's XCP technology is stymied h4xd* by sticking a fingernail-size piece of opaque tape on the outer edge of the CD.*





In terms of "hacking" its a moral and ethical question.  

A good deal of what console lockouts do is intended to give large corporations like Sony a good deal of control over their hardware.  

Is it ethical for Sony to release a console that prevents an American from playing games released in Japan & vice versa?  Should Sony be allowed to control what OS a person runs on their PS3?

It would be like a computer manufacturer forcing someone to use internet explorer as a browser or forcing someone to use Windows as an OS.

There is a lot more to the issue than Sony having exclusive control over their console which tends to complicate things, unfortunately.  Nyeh.


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## kazuri (Jan 15, 2011)

> Is it ethical for Sony to release a console that prevents an American from playing games released in Japan & vice versa? Should Sony be allowed to control what OS a person runs on their PS3?



If it is stated before you buy then absolutely. If you do not agree to their terms, or you have the option of not buying. Common sense.


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## Sanity Check (Jan 15, 2011)

kazuri said:


> If it is stated before you buy then absolutely. If you do not agree to their terms, or you have the option of not buying. Common sense.




If Sony writes a stipulation making you obligated to stick a 2 by 4 up your ass if you buy a PS3 its "common sense"?  

Lets say a car manufacturer like General Motors includes a hardware lockout in your brand new car or truck called OBD or OBDII.

This hardware lockout prevents you from being able to change your oil or sparkplugs, modify or perform basic maintenance on your car / truck, much like the PS3 hardware lockout prevents a person from changing OS, etc.

Is it "common sense" that you have to take your car to a "certified OBDII capable" person for a much higher price than if you were to do it yourself?

Its bad for you being a car owner as your car maintenance costs will be much, much, higher.  Its good for big companies like Sony and General Motors -- you're their bitch and putting loads of money in their pockets.

Is that justified?  Punch yourself please for saying something so sheepicle.


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## Fourangers (Jan 15, 2011)

Well, FINALLY. I still didn't buy my PS3 for this specific reason.

The question of Piracy is really controversial. At this time with the high velocity of communication caused by internet, it's easy to find movies/mp3/games/software with copyright infringements.

However, I'm sure this whole issue would have been diminished if those things were cheaper to buy. Not everyone has the luxury to buy expensive console and expensive games when they have to get worried paying their monthly rent. But even so, as gamer fans we want to buy and enjoy games. Most fans are willing to buy the original one if only the difference of prices weren't so huge.

*shrugs* PS2 was easily decodified because Sony itself released it so if they won't earn money through video games, they could at least earn it by selling the consoles.

So while it's now easy to find pirated goodies in the internet, companies obviously have to come up with a new type of thinking to make their original products still attractive to the buyers. It's still a difficult formula that few people had found the answer for it.


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## Le Pirate (Jan 15, 2011)

I wish I had a PS3 right about now. Just to see if this is true, though I doubt it is.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

Fourangers said:


> So while it's now easy to find pirated goodies in the internet, companies obviously have to come up with a new type of thinking to make their original products still attractive to the buyers. It's still a difficult formula that few people had found the answer for it.



I sort of figured out a way they could do that and effectively kill off piracy once and for all. Microtransactions.

Say you go to GAME and buy Uncharted 4. It's ?15, just like all brand new PS4 games. Unlike normal, however, the game only has one or two levels of single player content and a five level cap on the multiplayer with only one map available. It's a glorified disc-based demo, so to speak, except that it has more content.

On the PSN Store, under Uncharted 4, are items and bundles that allow you to unlock the content you want - additional levels of the single player campaign, the entire single player campaign, more maps for multiplayer, all of them, an increased or maxed out level cap, that sort of thing.

For people buying the new Call of Duty who're only interested in multiplayer, they would buy the game and only pay for the multiplayer aspect. They'd still have one or two levels of the single player campaign available to play if they wanted, but they'd obviously pay to unlock the additional maps and levels of the multiplayer segment of the game.

Replace pre-order bonuses with ownership bonuses, bonus perks or maps based upon whether you own the whole game or not, and you've got an incentive program right there.

And since you can only play additional content the PSN Store can verify you've purchased, pirates will have to somehow hack *that* since the PS4 itself won't have any say in the matter. So even if they hack the PS4 and allow you to run backups, it won't really do much for you since 90% of the game isn't even on the disc.


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## Indignant Guile (Jan 15, 2011)

^are you retarded? that shit will never go over with "honest" consumers.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

Indignant Guile said:


> ^are you retarded? that shit will never go over with "honest" consumers.



Tell that to the people who spend thousands each month through microtransactions. Or the MMOs that tripled their revenue when they ended up relying on microtransactions instead of subscriptions.

Besides, I can think of quite a few million people who would love to buy the multiplayer of the next Call of Duty game by itself for ?30 rather than fork out for the single player as well for twice as much.


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## Naruto (Jan 15, 2011)

Hondo Pirate said:


> I wish I had a PS3 right about now. Just to see if this is true, though I doubt it is.



I'm playing Uncharted, Bayonetta and BlazBlue Continuum shift on my 3.55 retail PS3.

From the hard drive, without any kind of bluray on the drive. And all I had to do was decrypt the eboot.bin file, hexedit some paths, pkg it again and sign it.

Badabing.


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## Sanity Check (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I sort of figured out a way they could do that and effectively kill off piracy once and for all. Microtransactions.




I think...  they jokingly refer to suing pirates and those who circumvent DRM, etc, as "monetizing a distribution channel". 

Its the "newest" and "best" thing next to microtransactions.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

There's no way to "kill off piracy once and for all."  All they can do is make it rather inconvenient for the people hacking the games.

Which they can do a number of different ways.  It's especially easy in this case since any time they detect any tampering they can (in theory at least) brick your PS3.  Whether they'll bother to go to this extent is another question.

PC games have been hacked and pirated since they started existing and that hasn't killed off the PC gaming market.  I know a number of people with modded X-Box 360's and that hasn't mandated the release of a new X-Box system.  I doubt this will be any different.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> There's no way to "kill off piracy once and for all."  All they can do is make it rather inconvenient for the people hacking the games.



Why isn't there? If everything is practically controlled by servers owned by Sony, as an example, what can hackers do? How do hackers deal with something that could ultimately become similar to the OnLive service? Sony could completely control content access if they choose and there's nothing hackers could do if that happened.

What I suggested was simply more leaning towards microtransactions (which have proven to be more profitable than subscriptions or single charges) and ways not to alienate retail stores. Sony and Microsoft could easily go much further than that, every alternative being far more restrictive for hackers. Streaming content similar to how OnLive does would probably be the final step, at which time hackers would be defeated.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> Why isn't there? If everything is practically controlled by servers owned by Sony, as an example, what can hackers do? How do hackers deal with something that could ultimately become similar to the OnLive service? Sony could completely control content access if they choose and there's nothing hackers could do if that happened.



This was (sorta) tried with 'The Sims'.

The base game is released, it's cracked.  

Expansion 1 comes out, requires a non-cracked install.  Someone buys it, cracks it, and makes it able to install on a cracked copy.  Repeat.

There are ways to make this process harder for would-be pirates, but not impossible.

Just like they could follow the 'Starcraft 2' model and require the game to sign-in to servers whenever it's launched.  But unless the game downloads data as you play it this won't work (and even then there are ways around this, though on the PS3 they might be somewhat harder than on a PC to implement).


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> This was (sorta) tried with 'The Sims'.
> 
> The base game is released, it's cracked.
> 
> ...



OnLive has nothing on your computer or device. Everything is streamed to you from a server in some city on another continent. It relays your controller inputs, but that's it. It's completely unhackable without messing with the servers themselves and what're the chances of successfully doing that? How can they patch that with a crack?

Same with the microtransactions idea... They'd have to modify what is stored on a server, because that's where everything is verified and downloaded from. If you have content on your PS4 that isn't tied to your PSN account on Sony's servers, you can't access the content. Simple as that.

Your only choice would be to leave your PS4 offline permanently, but all Sony would need to do is make it so PS4's cannot work without an internet connection. You'd then have to somehow replicate Sony's servers with all the security verification codes and whatnot and fool your PS4 into thinking that the server you're showing it is the real thing. Add in weekly firmware updates for the PS4 so it accepts the ever-changing security verification codes and, well, what can the hackers do?

Sony can make it impossible. They simply choose not to because it'd require they alienate a percentage of potential buyers in order to stop losing potential sales from hackers and pirates. They're being too soft, basically, and both pirates and hackers know that - it's why they act like arseholes so often, inferring that any anti-piracy measure is merely an invitation to hack the console as if no anti-piracy would mean people would magically stop hacking stuff.


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## Sanity Check (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> OnLive has nothing on your computer or device. Everything is streamed to you from a server in some city on another continent. It relays your controller inputs, but that's it. It's completely unhackable without messing with the servers themselves and what're the chances of successfully doing that? How can they patch that with a crack?
> 
> Same with the microtransactions idea... They'd have to modify what is stored on a server, because that's where everything is verified and downloaded from. If you have content on your PS4 that isn't tied to your PSN account on Sony's servers, you can't access the content. Simple as that.
> 
> ...




If it accepts input, it can be h4xd, usually.  

Input is formatted inside a specific protocol and authentication is far from existing on a unique quantum level, there is no real way for a server to distinguish a legitimate user from a non-legitimate one.  Current means of authentication -- things like 'unique hashes' and passwords can be faked, broken, stolen, guessed, intercepted, etc.

If someone fakes input that says they're someone else, or breaches Sony's security, there's really no way for a machine to know that such behavior is 'rong'.  If I were to type in your username & password on NF, it wouldn't know that someone else were accessing your account.  Same principle applies to Sony, servers, etc.  Validation and authentication as well as the protocols surrounding them are 'blind'.

Also, there are more indirect attacks like social engineering, etc, that don't require technical proficiency.  There are basically thousands if not millions of different ways to h4x something like a server, and while Sony would have to succeed numerous times to prevent a breach, an attacker would only need to succeed once.  

The deck is stacked in favor of the attacker.

There's no such thing as 'perfectly secure'.  

/faggy tech post


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## santanico (Jan 15, 2011)

I love my ps3 just the way it is pek 
Besides, my psp has already been messed with.


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## stream (Jan 15, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> There are lots of hackers/modders that are girls.



Indeed, indeed... But this one is not:


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## Psycho (Jan 15, 2011)

Zero? said:


> The key allows anyone to run any app/game as an official and licensed program. What's worse (for Sony, at least) is it cannot be fixed. If they replaced the hardware, *it would make all old PS3s unusable with new games*.



and you doubt for even a second that sony is above doing this?

they said "we will make this console bootleg proof" and i have no doubt they will fuck over everyone to keep their word; and geohot is gonna be to blame because she brought this on us


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## Milkshake (Jan 15, 2011)

tldr; what this got to do with me

that's what they get for not making my Ps3 compatible w/ Ps2 games  now their ass is grass and they can't do shit about it


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## Ƶero (Jan 15, 2011)

Psycho said:


> and you doubt for even a second that sony is above doing this?
> 
> they said "we will make this console bootleg proof" and i have no doubt they will fuck over everyone to keep their word; and geohot is gonna be to blame because she brought this on us



They wouldn't dare pull a stunt like that. That would piss off every single PS3 user on the planet, Sony can neither handle nor afford the shitstorm that would follow.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

Zero™ said:


> They wouldn't dare pull a stunt like that. That would piss off every single PS3 user on the planet, Sony can neither handle nor afford the shitstorm that would follow.



Aha! You think they care? They already got everyone's money, so what do they care? You think they'll cry if nobody buys the next product they make? If the videogame market proves too troublesome to provide for, if people keep hacking everything they put out, they'll just stop bothering. Sony isn't going to lose any sleep if they kill the Playstation brand. Hell, they'd *save* money. They don't need the videogame market to maintain their laptops, TVs, Bluray players, movie productions, music brands and every other market Sony has their hand dipped in. Sony is worth hundreds of billions of dollars - like they care if they lose a couple of hundred million. They'd make much more back if they stopped pouring money into Playstation production and sold off all the IPs they own.

The PS2 was a success, but nothing is stopping Sony from shutting down SCE on the basis that some idiot keeps hacking every piece of hardware they bring out. Why bother producing stuff for gamers if gamers don't respect the product? If every anti-piracy measure is met by morons who think it's a challenge, then why bother at all? Don't make any more Playstations, Sony saves money and the only people who lose out are the people who actually pay for their stuff. All thanks to hackers and their stupidity.


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## stream (Jan 15, 2011)

Zero? said:


> They wouldn't dare pull a stunt like that. That would piss off every single PS3 user on the planet, Sony can neither handle nor afford the shitstorm that would follow.



Sony does NOT have the reputation to be very careful about not pissing off their users.


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## Sanity Check (Jan 15, 2011)

Zero? said:


> The key allows anyone to run any app/game as an official and licensed program. What's worse (for Sony, at least) is it cannot be fixed. If they replaced the hardware, it would make all old PS3s unusable with new games.




They would have to redesign aspects of the hardware that were vulnerable and rewrite portions of the software(hypervisor) that were exploited.  

Else it would only be h4xd again.  

They won't bother.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> They would have to redesign aspects of the hardware that were vulnerable and rewrite portions of the software(hypervisor) that were exploited.
> 
> Else it would only be h4xd again.
> 
> They won't bother.



Makes you wonder what they're going to do...

The only choice they seem to have is to give developers an incentive to hold off their games and release a PS4 by Christmas next year. Goes completely against their original ten year plan and obviously wouldn't be as good as the PS4 would've been if it had been released in 2016 as planned - but who could we blame other than the people who hacked it?

They can't just take this lying down... Hackers already ruined the PSP to the point where most of the features it was going to get were scrapped due to piracy, so they won't let them get away with ruining another Playstation product for long.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

^ Yes just like how Microsoft released the XBox 460 when the mod chip came out and how computers ceased to be used for video games back in 1984 

This is a major annoyance for Sony, one that they may decide to go to war over, but it hardly mandates the development of a new console.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> ^ Yes just like how Microsoft released the XBox 460 when the mod chip came out and how computers ceased to be used for video games back in 1984
> 
> This is a major annoyance for Sony, one that they may decide to go to war over, but it hardly mandates the development of a new console.



So you think they're just going to do nothing. You think they'll kick up a fuss, sulk a bit, then just pretend the problem doesn't exist? Oh well, I guess that's more productive than fast-tracking the development of a new console, right?


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> So you think they're just going to do nothing. You think they'll kick up a fuss, sulk a bit, then just pretend the problem doesn't exist? Oh well, I guess that's more productive than fast-tracking the development of a new console, right?



No I suspect they'll largely ignore the problem while setting a few land mines for people who aren't being careful enough and using legal means to retard the spread of it.

Won't stop the most dedicated crackers.  But it's rather trivial for them to stop most of the casual users of cracked materials.

Pretty much similar to what Microsoft did with the 360 really.


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## Axl Low (Jan 15, 2011)

I finally have a reason to by a P$3 now
To help drive $ony into the ground 

time to my get Ikaruga, Product Number 03 and mischief makers arollin...


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> No I suspect they'll largely ignore the problem while setting a few land mines for people who aren't being careful enough and using legal means to retard the spread of it.
> 
> Won't stop the most dedicated crackers.  But it's rather trivial for them to stop most of the casual users of cracked materials.
> 
> Pretty much similar to what Microsoft did with the 360 really.



What legal means? Haven't you read the news? They apparently have no case. The guy that hacked the PS3 and spread the private key on the internet is getting off scott free and thanks to that key Sony can't even point out who is playing pirated games and who is playing legitimate ones. So what exactly can they do, legally speaking? They can't do a thing, especially if they can't prove who is doing what.

You said yourself, the 360 uses a mod chip. Which is easily spotted, if I recall correctly. The PS3's master key has been given out publicly, which can make anything ran on the PS3 appear as legitimate software. Emulators, homebrew and pirated games will all appear legit so long as they're signed with that master key. Hackers are already compiling programs that automatically sign eboot.bin files, ready for transfer to the PS3's HDD. Within a month or two, any and every PSN, PSOne and PS3 game available on the PS3 will be available to pirate and there's not a damn thing Sony can do to stop that besides render the PS3 as obselete as possible in as short a time period as possible.

So no, it's not as trivial as you make it out to be. Which is why Sony has to take a little bit more dramatic measures than just ignoring the problem.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> What legal means? Haven't you read the news? They apparently have no case. The guy that hacked the PS3 and spread the private key on the internet is getting off scott free and thanks to that key Sony can't even point out who is playing pirated games and who is playing legitimate ones. So what exactly can they do, legally speaking? They can't do a thing, especially if they can't prove who is doing what.


Pretty sure anyone pirating software is still breaking the law 



Lyra said:


> You said yourself, the 360 uses a mod chip. Which is easily spotted, if I recall correctly. The PS3's master key has been given out publicly, which can make anything ran on the PS3 appear as legitimate software. Emulators, homebrew and pirated games will all appear legit so long as they're signed with that master key.
> 
> So no, it's not as trivial as you make it out to be. Which is why Sony has to take a little bit more dramatic measures than just ignoring the problem.


Again people who think this simply aren't being creative enough.

First of all.  At best 1% of PS3 users will ever hear about this in order to pirate games (which is really the only part of your list above that matters Sony probably won't bother with homebrew applications).

Second, even looking at these 1% of users, you can stop 95% of them with simple traps since they don't really understand what all can happen (much like anyone in this thread that has said some variation of "Sony is dead" or "time for a PS4"  ).  

It's trivial for them to push out updates that will detect the most common pirated games through other means and simply brick the machines of people using it.

If you avoid updating your system software, and never go online with your PS3, then you'll likely be fine.  Of course then you'll never get to play any games newer than the rollout of the next system software without more extensive cracking.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

EvilMoogle said:


> Pretty sure anyone pirating software is still breaking the law



You only break the law if you're caught and Sony can't catch you.



> Again people who think this simply aren't being creative enough.


Or maybe we're just not being as hopelessly optimistic?



> First of all.  At best 1% of PS3 users will ever hear about this in order to pirate games (which is really the only part of your list above that matters Sony probably won't bother with homebrew applications).


At best, 1% right? So out of 43 million, you reckon that's only 430'000. An interesting figure, considering that's still up to half a million people who will never buy a PS3 game again.



> Second, even looking at these 1% of users, you can stop 95% of them with simple traps since they don't really understand what all can happen (much like anyone in this thread that has said some variation of "Sony is dead" or "time for a PS4"  ).


See, this is where you're clearly not understanding it. *Sony cannot tell who is pirating and who isn't.* The master key is what *every* game is signed with, so there's nothing to differentiate someone playing Lord of Shadows legitimately and someone playing a pirated copy because *they're both digitally signed* *with the same key*.



> It's trivial for them to push out updates that will detect the most common pirated games through other means and simply brick the machines of people using it.


If we translate your wonderful idea to film, then everyone who watches Avatar - the most pirated film of 2010 - is getting their Bluray player bricked. Awesome idea, that - kill up to 99% of PS3s to get at the "1%" of them.



> If you avoid updating your system software, and never go online with your PS3, then you'll likely be fine.  Of course then you'll never get to play any games newer than the rollout of the next system software without more extensive cracking.


Avoid updating your PS3 and Sony will know you're using pirated software. Considering Sony can't tell you're using it, and no firmware update will stop your PS3 playing games signed with the master key, why bother not updating? It's pointless. and it'll only get Sony on your case.


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## Kensei (Jan 15, 2011)

There are ways for Sony to make it more difficult. Add in a segment of code in a future update that checks for a secondary signature with a different key (hopefully, they have figured out that the asymmetric portion of the key needs a random value in order to for the private key to be secure) on firmware update files would be one way to handle things. Casual users would likely end up updating their firmware to a later official firmware. At which point, the hole is closed for them. For the ones who are truly dedicated about hacking, they'll likely sticking to modifying the existing firmwares and just inject features of new firmwares. <--- This group is quite different from pirates. 

Geohot's motivation is iffy. I don't think he's for piracy. However, he definitely is an attention whore. You can not however blame him for piracy on the ps3. Piracy existed before someone made a customer. It should be note that, to date, no backup loaders have been written for his custom firmware. (That is, any piracy being done on a ps3 is still through the jigkick method.)

The group at fail0verflow are however staunchly anti-piracy. They went as far as playing tricks on anyway who installed Waninkoko's cIOS's. Namely, they would flip and reverse the output of the wii's image buffer. So everything was backwards and upside down. (Sidenote: fail0verflow are the guys who wrote the homebrew channel).

Waninkoko and others like him, these guys ride on the back of other hackers' work. He and others like him are the ones who will modify other hackers' work and enable piracy.

Basically, Sony should have been thinking of ways plugging the holes that exist (like Nintendo and Microsoft tried to do on their systems) rather than suing Geohot.


Edit: A thing to note, you can't install any applications without a custom firmware unless you setup a proxy store and trick the ps3. That goes well beyond what many are capable of doing.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> You only break the law if you're caught and Sony can't catch you.


You're just being obtuse here.  You are breaking the law regardless, though Sony needs to catch you to charge you.  Which they will whenever they can, though I don't want to speculate how often this will happen.



Lyra said:


> Or maybe we're just not being as hopelessly optimistic?


Doubtfully.



Lyra said:


> At best, 1% right? So out of 43 million, you reckon that's only 430'000. An interesting figure, considering that's still up to half a million people who will never buy a PS3 game again.


Unless they update the system software and make new games require this.  Not to mention eventually there will be new features needed in games that you WILL need newer system software.



Lyra said:


> See, this is where you're clearly not understanding it. *Sony cannot tell who is pirating and who isn't.* The master key is what *every* game is signed with, so there's nothing to differentiate someone playing Lord of Shadows legitimately and someone playing a pirated copy because *they're both digitally signed* *with the same key*.


Again, you're not being creative enough.  Here's a simple example that I came up with in 30 seconds.  Sony includes a list of games that have to come on disk (which is the vast majority of serious games out there right now), along with checksums of the game and the blu-ray it comes on.

And they tell the system to check this list along with the checksums whenever a game is launched (which would take less than a second and be invisible to users).  If the game is launching from the hard drive and should have a disk in the drive but doesn't, brick the PS3.

So if we take your numbers above, 430000 people hear about this.  408500 or so of them will end up with bricked PS3s or will hear about other people with bricked PS3s or will hear stories about others having bricked PS3s and get scared off from trying it.  

The other 21500 or so will likely get away with it.  But that's a small enough number it's better for Sony to write it off than to try and go after them.



Lyra said:


> If we translate your wonderful idea to film, then everyone who watches Avatar - the most pirated film of 2010 - is getting their Bluray player bricked. Awesome idea, that - kill up to 99% of PS3s to get at the "1%" of them.


This shows exactly that you have no idea about the difference between the storage of data, and the execution of applications.

I'm sure if Sony had a way to detect what movie you were watching based on what was stored on the disc they might try something similar there.  But that's a different animal.



Lyra said:


> Avoid updating your PS3 and Sony will know you're using pirated software. Considering Sony can't tell you're using it, and no firmware update will stop your PS3 playing games signed with the master key, why bother not updating? It's pointless. and it'll only get Sony on your case.


If you avoid updating your PS3 you'll eventually lose the ability to play new games.  Quite quickly if Sony wants to force the issue with developers.

Beyond that they won't particularly care.  But if you're updating your software then you're at Sony's mercy as to what that software does.  If you're trying to get away with using pirated software and updating your PS3 I hope you're reading the EULAs very carefully and you better hope that Sony's disclosing everything they do in them.

But best of luck to you.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

Right, so it's that easy to fix? Makes you wonder what all the fuss is about then. Nearly every forum I've read about this on has said the same thing - the master key means they can digitally sign anything to make it appear legitimate to both the PS3 and PSN and so there's nothing Sony can actually do to stop you running whatever pirated copies of games you wanted.

But if it's as simple as you say for Sony to fix, then clearly a lot of people overestimated the value of the master key that Sony seems willing to kill to prevent the spreading of.


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## EvilMoogle (Jan 15, 2011)

It's incredibly bad from a PR standpoint for Sony, that's honestly the biggest problem.

As to actually fixing it, they'll have to pay the costs associated with the new programming.  And if they go the "bricking" route they'll need to spend some time in QA to avoid bricking legitimate PS3s (which would be "bad" in legalese).  

I don't see this as the death of Sony any more than it was the death Microsoft when the X-Box and the 360 were cracked or the Death of Nintendo when the Wii was cracked (3-4 times), or the death of every PC Gaming company when they were cracked.

But we'll see.  Maybe the thousands of programmers at Sony won't be able to come up with a solution to this.  Seeing as I can think of a good half-dozen myself I'm betting the opposite though.


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## Terra Branford (Jan 15, 2011)

It wasn't the death of the PSP when it was hacked/modded either. People are still buying them, even the 3000 model which can only be temp-modded.





> You only break the law if you're caught and Sony can't catch you.


What?


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## Kensei (Jan 15, 2011)

It was over-hyped, massively so. The guys at fail0verflow already mentioned that Sony could plug the hole in a future update. 

Now, if someone has already installed a backup loader before updating, all Sony has to do is run checksum program on installed programs when updating a firmware. Then, the firmware removes any of those backup loaders and maybe even cheat programs it finds. It'll also remove the homebrew install application as well.

Edit: Also, I wouldn't take sony's actions as a sign that the hole can't be plugged. Sony's the company who failed at making a proper signature generator. Quite frankly, Sony needs new systems programmers and security programmers.


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## Velocity (Jan 15, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> What?



I was being assinine. Y'know the saying, "it's only illegal if you get caught".


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## Vegitto-kun (Jan 15, 2011)

I wonder why sony hasn't released a update yet if its fixable.

when that PS3 jailbreak stick came out they patched it up quickly


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## Terra Branford (Jan 15, 2011)

Lyra said:


> I was being assinine. Y'know the saying, "it's only illegal if you get caught".



Oh, okay xD

I thought you were being serious


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## Kensei (Jan 15, 2011)

Vegitto-kun said:


> I wonder why sony hasn't released a update yet if its fixable.
> 
> when that PS3 jailbreak stick came out they patched it up quickly



Changing the payload that boots into service mode doesn't require any effort on Sony's part. This relies on the payload not being leaked. It's really simple to prevent that from happening as the only ones who can know it are sony employees. 

Creating an update that has to handle a new file layout for firmware updates as well check against a secondary signature will take quite a bit more time.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jan 15, 2011)

Psycho said:


> and you doubt for even a second that sony is above doing this?
> 
> they said "we will make this console bootleg proof" and i have no doubt they will fuck over everyone to keep their word; and geohot is gonna be to blame because she brought this on us



Nah.

A black guy walks into a white-owned store and robs it and leaves. The store owner answers by refusing to let black people into the store (he blames the black guy for this) is it the robber's fault that black people are no longer allowed into the store?

In the case of Sony it's even more intangible, because
A: What GeoHot is doing is nowhere NEAR the severity of robbing a store
B: What GeoHot is doing is likely not even harmful to Sony's profits


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## Kensei (Jan 15, 2011)

Psycho said:


> they said "we will make this console bootleg proof" and i have no doubt they will fuck over everyone to keep their word; and geohot is gonna be to blame because she brought this on us



First, Geohot is a he. GEOrge HOTz. 

Second, no backup loaders have been created for his custom firmware.

Third, piracy is however possible on backup loaders using the jigkick method. That is, piracy had been possible on the PS3 long before this method came around.


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## Yagami1211 (Jan 22, 2011)

Sounds like Sony will adopt the "CD Key" solution the PC used for quite some time now.
Basically when you install a game you will be asked for the CD Key that is in the game manual.


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## Adagio (Jan 22, 2011)

Yes, because the CD-key system has worked on the PC gaming line really well for the past few years.


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## soulnova (Jan 22, 2011)

*sigh* We still keep this going? 

CD key?.... damn. that's just.... _cute._


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## Skywalker (Jan 22, 2011)

This matters..why?


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## Deweze (Jan 22, 2011)

Ƶ Kira said:


> This matters..why?



You must be a dumb dumb

You can run software that isn't certified by Sony on PS3s now. So homebrew is possible now along with otherOS again, but now it can have proper 3D acceleration instead of all the limits it used to have.


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## soulnova (Jan 22, 2011)

I think he refers to the general "Meh" about the CD keys. I could be wrong.


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (Jan 23, 2011)

CD-keys? lol


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