# Itachi vs Jiraiya



## Equilibrium139 (Jul 16, 2016)

Location: Pain vs Jiraiya
Restrictions: Jiraiya starts in base. 
Mindset: IC, meaning if they didn't do anything like it in the manga, it can't be used as an argument. 
Distance: 10 Meters
Knowledge: Manga


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## Bonly (Jul 16, 2016)

It would be a close fight but I'd give the nod to Itachi more times then not between genjutsu and the MS I see Jiraiya getting caught before he can take out Itachi


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## oiety (Jul 16, 2016)

I have a feeling that scan of Jiraiya, Itachi, and Kisame will be posted. But anyways I think Itachi would win. Yomi Numa is probably an issue, and that Toad Shadow Flatness technique he used on Konan would be as well, but I would say Sage Mode is required to actually seal the win for Jiraiya, and I just don't see Itachi allowing him to get into it.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 16, 2016)

You know what I'll be that guy.

Yomi Numa GG.
Itachi has no _real_ counter.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Itachі (Jul 16, 2016)

In my opinion, Jiraiya can't hold off Itachi long enough to enter SM and he's going to be put down by a Mangekyo Technique. It's a good fight but I don't see Jiraiya lasting very long in all honesty. Itachi can access his best techniques immediately and Jiraiya can't.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 16, 2016)

Hard to say.

It can be that somehow Itachi prevents Jiraiya from using SM, then managed to take him out. Or Jiraiya somehow manages to get SM, hides out long enough for the Senjutsu powered Genjutsu to stop Itachi in his tracks (thereby getting rid of Susanoo) and ending him.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 16, 2016)

Troll answer : Itachi low diff, Jiraya said in P1 that any S rank criminal can at least put him to wining high diff including Hidan. Since Hidan <<< Itachi, then Itachi low diff .

Serious answer : Jiraya got no clue against MS techniques, he will be highly pressured and quiclky defeated, Itachi can dodge all his techniques, Yomi Numa isn't wide/fast enough, Hair techniques are not wide nor fast, Base Katon is the same, only the Bunta+Jiraya's Juubi size Katon can push Itachi using Susano'o and tanking it neg diff. Elsewere, Jiraya got no response to the instant MS Jutsu . So I would say Itachi low to mid diff at most .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Itachі (Jul 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Troll answer : Itachi low diff, Jiraya said in P1 that any S rank criminal can at least put him to wining high diff including Hidan. Since Hidan <<< Itachi, then Itachi low diff .
> 
> Serious answer : Jiraya got no clue against MS techniques, he will be highly pressured and quiclky defeated, Itachi can dodge all his techniques, Yomi Numa isn't wide/fast enough, Hair techniques are not wide nor fast, Base Katon is the same, only the Bunta+Jiraya's Juubi size Katon can push Itachi using Susano'o and tanking it neg diff. Elsewere, Jiraya got no response to the instant MS Jutsu . So I would say Itachi low to mid diff at most .



When did J-Man say that any S-rank gives him a hard fight?

I think you're underestimating Jiraiya's Yomi Numa, his Kebari Senbon is also noted to be his fastest attack and he was surprised that it was dodged. Yomi Numa's not gonna come out unless Itachi's in Susano'o anyway. Jiraiya's got a good variety of techniques, even better if he gets into SM.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> When did J-Man say that any S-rank gives him a hard fight?
> 
> I think you're underestimating Jiraiya's Yomi Numa, his Kebari Senbon is also noted to be his fastest attack and he was surprised that it was dodged. Yomi Numa's not gonna come out unless Itachi's in Susano'o anyway. Jiraiya's got a good variety of techniques, even better if he gets into SM.


It was said here :
this Jiraya : "a single S rank criminal is already hard to deal with"
As for Yomi Numa, this Jutsu was never portrayed as fast, since Kakashi was able to see throught and dodge non mudras large Kakuzu's ninjutsu at a blank range then Itachi should be able to predict Jiraya's move using Sharingan and dodging it using his fast Shunshin no Jutsu .

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 16, 2016)

Susano'o/Totsuka are the definitive deal breaker for Itachi's victory, everything leading up to it will be a wash. Jiraiya's too experienced to make a mistake as giving Itachi an opportunity to cast a genjutsu and he's well aware of the black flames. He doesn't know how they'll come but they will make an appearance. I'll give him that but he actually stops at Susano'o, Itachi is going to be impossible to beat, at least for Jiraiya after Susano'o makes it's way to the battlefield.


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## Eli 2000 (Jul 16, 2016)

^^ Susanoo dosn't protect you from sound based attacks , Frog call is gonna get him through his susanoo and paralyse him , forcing him to undo his Susanoo , and then he dies .

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Troll answer : Itachi low diff, Jiraya said in P1 that any S rank criminal can at least put him to wining high diff including Hidan. Since Hidan <<< Itachi, then Itachi low diff.


When does Jiraiya say that????





> Serious Answer: Jiraya got no clue against MS techniques, he will be highly pressured and quiclky defeated


He's seen both Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi. So... no.



> Itachi can dodge all his techniques Yomi Numa isn't wide/fast enough





> Hair techniques are not wide nor fast


 Fast enough to grab Floating Konan. Itachis precognition would definitely be helpful against this technique though. 
*Spoiler*: __ 







Wide enough to restrain this summon. 
*Spoiler*: __ 









> Base Katon is the same, only the Bunta+Jiraya's Juubi size Katon can push Itachi using Susano'o and tanking it neg diff.


 "neg-dif" that type of vocabulary belongs in the troll response. What about Chou Odama Rasengan? What about Kebari Senbon? Itachi would need Susanoo/Yata for those attacks.



> Elsewere, Jiraya got no response to the instant MS Jutsu . So I would say Itachi low to mid diff at most .


 He has a sensing barrier that activates with nothing more than a jump. He could respond easily.

Yomi Numa snags Itachi. It doesn't matter though cause Itachi could just:
Kato..
Shuri..
Bunsh..
Amate..
Tsuku..
Susa..

Oh I guess it does matter. Yomi Numa finishes.[/spoiler]


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## hbcaptain (Jul 16, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> When does Jiraiya say that????


I answered just above .



> He's seen both Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi. So... no.


That doesn't mean he can counter those techniques, they are just too OP .

According to DB, Jiraya's Full Powered Yomi Numa can only completly  absorb Boss summon sized creature (while diminished Jiraya only partially absorbed the two deaded snake) . and above all, Itachi can easily dodge it as did Kakashi against Kakuzu .

Reactions: Creative 1 | Dislike 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I answered just above


 I was going to argue with you but it was your Troll Answer lol.



> That doesn't mean he can counter those techniques, they are just too OP. According to DB, Jiraya's Full Powered Yomi Numa can only completly  absorb Boss summon sized creature (while diminished Jiraya only partially absorbed the two deaded snake) . and above all, Itachi can easily dodge it as did Kakashi against Kakuzu.


 Itachi can easily dodge it how? A jump???? We've never seen him deal with an attack that had an AOE like this. To assume Itachi side-steps Yomi Numa is ridiculous. 

Or should I say,

Itachi can't counter his techniques they're too OP.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 16, 2016)

Jiraiyas Supporters wrote a post together and said:
			
		

> It's not a rocket science, if you go by feats, hype and data, Jiraiya is stronger. Itachi and Base Jiraiya both has 4.5 in Taijutsu. They are equal. SM Jiraiya however trashes him in that department. It's obvious, there is no explanation needed.
> -Ma&Pa get him out of Genjutsu just as quick, if not quicker than a Jin. They're connected to his shoulders and can constantly emit chakra.
> -His hair trolls Amaterasu. Hair Jizo is a perfect counter.
> -Kawazu Naki and Yomi Numa troll susanoo (Both require few hand signs and have Great AOE, Itachi can't exactly sidestep these attacks.
> ...


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## hbcaptain (Jul 16, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I was going to argue with you but it was your Troll Answer lol.


Well I guess when the manga doesn't feat you it transform into a troll :
this



> Itachi can easily dodge it how? A jump???? We've never seen him deal with an attack that had an AOE like this. To assume Itachi side-steps Yomi Numa is ridiculous.
> 
> Or should I say,
> 
> Itachi can't counter his techniques they're too OP.


Yomi Numa needs handseals and chakra concentrating into the underground, Muu could sens Gaara's underground sand attack and dodge it, Itachi isn't only see the chakra (even more effective than a mere sensing), but also the Jutsu mechanism using Sharingan precog. Since he got a super Shunshin, and super reflexes then he will simply dodge . Kakuzu's techniques were even worse dealing with since it doesn't evn need mudra, and at a very wide range, yet Kakashi managed to dodge them at blank range, saying Yomi Numa can beat Itachi is just trolling .

Reactions: Funny 4


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well I guess when the manga doesn't feat you it transform into a troll :
> this


 I'm not arguing with the manga. It doesn't transform into troll, I just wouldn't want to respond to something you literally labeled "Troll Answer". 



> Yomi Numa needs handseals and chakra concentrating into the underground.


 Yes. Manga shows it took one hand sign. Anime shows three hand signs. It also activates instantly. It isn't a slow Doton. It's A-Rank Yomi Numa.



> Muu could sens Gaara's underground sand attack and dodge it


 Mu is an actual sensor though. Itachi isn't. 





> Itachi isn't only see the chakra (even more effective than a mere sensing) but also the Jutsu mechanism using Sharingan precog.


 Sharingan Precog doesn't save him. It's an instant Jutsu that activates in one panel. Not to mention Drugged Jiraiyas Yomi Numa is large enough to sink Itachi so Base Jiraiya can most definitely do it. 





> Since he got a super Shunshin, and super reflexes then he will simply dodge.


 Super Reflexes? His best reflexive feat was using Susanoo to tank Kirin. This isn't the same thing. Itachi can jump in the air or start running at full fucking speed. His feats aren't enough to suggest he can escape the AOE with either of those.



> Kakuzu's techniques were even worse dealing with since it doesn't evn need mudra, and at a very wide range, yet Kakashi managed to dodge them at blank range, saying Yomi Numa can beat Itachi is just trolling .


 Okay what are you talking about specifically? Scans please. If providing manga evidence and being able to substantiate my arguments is equivalent to trolling then sure I'm trolling.


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## Eli 2000 (Jul 16, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Yomi Numa needs handseals and chakra concentrating into the underground, Muu could sens Gaara's underground sand attack and dodge it, Itachi isn't only see the chakra (even more effective than a mere sensing), but also the Jutsu mechanism using Sharingan precog. Since he got a super Shunshin, and super reflexes then he will simply dodge . Kakuzu's techniques were even worse dealing with since it doesn't evn need mudra, and at a very wide range, yet Kakashi managed to dodge them at blank range, saying Yomi Numa can beat Itachi is just trolling .



When has Itachi ever show to be able to detect Ninjutsu before it happens ? he faced so many hand-seals techniques in the Manga , and not once has he ever show he can do this , he sure as hell didn't see Jiraiya's frog stomach coming .
Sharingan enable you to see chakra in color , it doesn't enable you to see through things or anything of this sort .
Or better than this , where was this ability when Sasuke's fire ball burned his hand ? (inb4 Itachi didn't want to dodge the fire ball) or when Kabuto destroyed his reincarnated body with his organic reincarnation Ninjutsu ?


hbcaptain said:


> Well I guess when the manga doesn't feat you it transform into a troll :


 This is ironic as fuck , bkz untill now , not only have you been arguing against the Manga (part 01 statement) , but you have the nerve to post shit like this :


hbcaptain said:


> saying Yomi Numa can beat Itachi is just trolling


Has amaterasu ever killed anyone ? or has Itachi ever showed one shotting anyone with it ? No ? Then why are you using it as an argument ?
Madara who's 4578985 times stronger than Itachi was killed by a clone feint and a sword , why wouldn't Itachi killed with Yomi Numa ?

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## hbcaptain (Jul 16, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'm not arguing with the manga. It doesn't transform into troll, I just wouldn't want to respond to something you literally labeled "Troll Answer".


Well, I said trolling because I spoke about Hidan that's it. But I actually rank Jiraya one tier above mid Aka members (Sasori,Kakuzu,Deidara,...) and one tier below the likes of Itachi , Prime Hanzo , Minato , Tobirama ,... Generaly, Jiraya will have a hard time against any mid Akatsuki member although he would win .



> Yes. Manga shows it took one hand sign. Anime shows three hand signs. It also activates instantly. It isn't a slow Doton. It's A-Rank Yomi Numa.


One hand sign is still too slow, Kakashi dodged non-mudras wide ninjutsu at a blank range . Rank = complexity not necessary power or effectiveness for exemple Raikiri S rank = Raiton Gian - B rank and even worse AAA'nukite - B rank > FRS - S rank . Kakashi showed he can see throught rank A techniques and even copy them , I don't think it's a problem for Itachi .



> Mu is an actual sensor though. Itachi isn't.  Sharingan Precog doesn't save him. It's an instant Jutsu that activates in one panel. Not to mention Drugged Jiraiyas Yomi Numa is large enough to sink Itachi so Base Jiraiya can most definitely do it.  Super Reflexes? His best reflexive feat was using Susanoo to tank Kirin. This isn't the same thing. Itachi can jump in the air or start running at full fucking speed. His feats aren't enough to suggest he can escape the AOE with either of those.


1)Muu can sens the chakra, Itachi can see the chakra (Sasuke saw Deidara's underground bombs for example, Obito saw Taiseki's chakra, Kakashi's saw throught Chiyo's Tensei no Jutsu,...)+can see throught the mechanism and even copy the Jutsu, from what we know only S-rank techniques can't be really copied or predicted .
2)Kakuzu's ninjutsu is at least as large as Yomi Numa, yet Kakashi dodge it at a blank range because he got Sharingan .
3)Itachi's Shunshin is definitly faster than P2 Sasuke's who is fast enough to highly pressure an Akatsuki member just using his raw speed .


In other hands, Jiraya got no clue against Amaterasu and he will have a pretty hard time just for "non-looking on Itachi's eyes" , not to mention Itachi's ninjutsu is fast enough to highly pressure Sharingan Kakashi just because of its high speed or his instant-non mudra Genjutsu even without Sharingan . Just these techniques combined with his extremly fast move speed is enough to pressure Jiraya not to mention the instant MS techniques .

@Eli 2000 :
Apparently you should reread the part about the Sharingan explenation .

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well, I said trolling because I spoke about Hidan that's it. But I actually rank Jiraya one tier above mid Aka members (Sasori,Kakuzu,Deidara,...) and one tier below the likes of Itachi , Prime Hanzo , Minato , Tobirama ,... Generaly, Jiraya will have a hard time against any mid Akatsuki member although he would win .
> 
> 
> One hand sign is still too slow, Kakashi dodged non-mudras wide ninjutsu at a blank range . Rank = complexity not necessary power or effectiveness for exemple Raikiri S rank = Raiton Gian - B rank and even worse AAA'nukite - B rank > FRS - S rank . Kakashi showed he can see throught rank A techniques and even copy them , I don't think it's a problem for Itachi .
> ...


 Okay before I can properly respond to this I need the following:

A scan of the Jutsu Kakashi dodged that you're comparing to Yomi Numa.

I also need you to realize Sharingan Precognition doesn't give Itachi the feats to effectively dodge Yomi Numa. Your examples of Sharingan seeing through Jutsu are cool and all but they don't apply. Even if Itachi saw that the floor around him was going to cave in, how would he counter it??? He wouldn't be able to out run the AOE, he simply lacks the feats to counter Yomi Numa.

Once you do that I'll respond to the rest of your post properly.


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## ARGUS (Jul 17, 2016)

lol 10m results in itachi instantly awakening susanoo and cutting base jiraiya in half 

Itachi mid/high diffs a FP SM Jiriaya, low diffs Base Jiraiya

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## Marsala (Jul 17, 2016)

If Yomi Numa was so powerful and unbeatable, Jiraiya would have just used it on Pain at the start. Instead, he didn't use it except as a pre-set trap that caught a BLIND body of Pain as part of a larger trap.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

Marsala said:


> If Yomi Numa was so powerful and unbeatable, Jiraiya would have just used it on Pain at the start. Instead, he didn't use it except as a pre-set trap that caught a BLIND body of Pain as part of a larger trap.


Location didn't permit and he did use it against one of the pains. (whether it's part of a larger trap doesn't really change the fact he used it effectively against Pain.)...?


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## Marsala (Jul 17, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Location didn't permit and he did use it against one of the pains. (whether it's part of a larger trap doesn't really change the fact he used it effectively against Pain.)...?



He turned the rocky, solid ceiling into Yomi Numa, so location didn't matter. He could have used it earlier against the three Pains but he didn't bother because its appearance is too slow. It was only good as a trap on a blind Pain.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

Marsala said:


> He turned the rocky, solid ceiling into Yomi Numa, so location didn't matter. He could have used it earlier against the three Pains but he didn't bother because its appearance is too slow. It was only good as a trap on a blind Pain.


  It would not have been a good idea to use Yomi Numa on the three pains. Not because it's slow but because he doesn't know their abilities. Not to mention he's already faced Summoning Pain who has summons that could possibly escape Yomi Numa (or at least get the pains out of it safely.)

I don't see how this applies to Itachi though.

Edit: Also saying Pain was blind therefore he got trapped would apply if Jiraiya wasn't the one who blinded him. Jiraiya blinded him then trapped him in Yomi Numa. That's effectively using it. If someone else had blinded Pain or he was just naturally blind, then I'd understand but Jiraiya completed that feat. My argument still stands.


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## Daichi Uchiha (Jul 17, 2016)

Jiraiya was killed by Nagato & Itachi can kill Nagato. I give it to Itachi

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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> You know what I'll be that guy.
> 
> Yomi Numa GG.
> Itachi has no _real_ counter.



Itachi just jumps out of range. Quite easy.
If it's large, Itachi jumps up and use katon on the ground to harden it. Easy counter.
Itachi can also use Sharingan precog to intercept his hand seals. Easy counter.


Whereas Jiraiya has no real counter to Amateratsu (no reaction or speed to dodge) and Tsukuyomi (no methods of avoiding KB feint/genjutsu). 

Especially during the CQC hand grab from Susanoo will be epic. Jiraiya gets squashed.




HandfullofNaruto said:


> It would not have been a good idea to use Yomi Numa on the three pains. Not because it's slow but because he doesn't know their abilities. Not to mention he's already faced Summoning Pain who has summons that could possibly escape Yomi Numa (or at least get the pains out of it safely.)
> 
> I don't see how this applies to Itachi though.
> 
> Edit: Also saying Pain was blind therefore he got trapped would apply if Jiraiya wasn't the one who blinded him. Jiraiya blinded him then trapped him in Yomi Numa. That's effectively using it. If someone else had blinded Pain or he was just naturally blind, then I'd understand but Jiraiya completed that feat. My argument still stands.




LOOOOL

So you're trying to say Jiraiya's technique that only worked on a blind path will work on a much faster/sharingan precog Itachi? You saying Jiraiya used it "effectively" against a blind path is like me saying Itachi used his Tosuka sword effectively through the smoke against a much stronger character which is Nagato, therefore it's going to work against Jiraiya?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Eli 2000 (Jul 17, 2016)

Man ! 3 days in here and the amount of dumbness is already over the top , people warned me about this place , but this is just ridiculous 
I mean , look at this trash 


ARGUS said:


> lol 10m results in itachi instantly awakening susanoo and cutting base jiraiya in half


This is a facepalm worthy post .


hbcaptain said:


> That doesn't mean he can counter those techniques, they are just too OP .


Why , bkz you say so ? has Itachi countered sound based attacks , or anything of this sort ? 
Those too OP techniques can be countered by an academy level ninjutsu (genjutsu via bunshin feints) , amaterasu (block LOS) and as far as that goes , it worked pretty fine .


Sapherosth said:


> Whereas Jiraiya has no real counter to Amateratsu (no reaction or speed to dodge)


A half dead Naruto reacted to it fo fuck sake .


Sapherosth said:


> Tsukuyomi (no methods of avoiding KB feint/genjutsu).


Facepalm 
Sensing barrier , clone feints , senjutsu sensing , Jiraiya has bigger chance of feinting Itachi , due to his sensing which isn't limited by just LOS like the sharingan .
This is so ridiculous , if an argument bout avoiding genjutsu should be made , it should be about itachi .
Itachi was trolled by sound based genjutsu in the manga . Fact .
Jiraiya was never caught in any Dojutsu related genjutsu . Fact .


Sapherosth said:


> Especially during the CQC hand grab from Susanoo will be epic. Jiraiya gets squashed.


Where was this '' hand grab '' when Kabuto was butchering him left and right ? in CQC Jiraiya has the advantage , Itachi eats a kawazu Kumite to his beautiful mouth , and gets fucked .


Marsala said:


> If Yomi Numa was so powerful and unbeatable, Jiraiya would have just used it on Pain at the start


Not an argument , we have seen many shinobi not using their trump card in the most important battles , examples are too many .


hbcaptain said:


> @Eli 2000 :
> Apparently you should reread the part about the Sharingan explenation .


Apparently you should reread the Manga again starting from part 01 .

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Butthurt McWowimacunt (Jul 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> But I actually rank Jiraya one tier above mid Aka members (Sasori,Kakuzu,Deidara,...) and one tier below the likes of Itachi , Prime Hanzo , Minato , Tobirama


Buddy this made me drop my sangria. Are you tellin me that Prime Hanzo , fucking dude who laid down-spared -and named all three fuckin Sannin- this guy- is on the same tier as Itachi?
Fuckin MINATO , that guy is soup er strong!
Itachi is a bad ass yeah , no denying that. But i don't see how you can confidently drop him on that tier and still expect anyone to believe you're a person who is capable of zipping up their pants in the morning.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Butthurt McWowimacunt said:


> Buddy this made me drop my sangria. Are you tellin me that Prime Hanzo , fucking dude who laid down-spared -and named all three fuckin Sannin- this guy- is on the same tier as Itachi?
> Fuckin MINATO , that guy is soup er strong!
> Itachi is a bad ass yeah , no denying that. But i don't see how you can confidently drop him on that tier and still expect anyone to believe you're a person who is capable of zipping up their pants in the morning.




Hanzo is freaking fodder in the war arc. 

He also beat the young Sannins....When Orochimaru was still human, Jiraiya most likely without his Toad training and Tsunade without Byakugo. 

Those 3 improved leaps and bounds since that battle. Anyone who's a high-kage tier is more than capable of taking on those 3 at the same time. At best they're at Asuma's level 


Unless you want to argue that the 3 current Sannins are only a bit stronger than their younger self and Hanzo can still solo them


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## Eli 2000 (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hanzo is freaking fodder in the war arc.


He died as rusty fodder who dropped everything he believed in , and he was reincarnated as such .


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hanzo is freaking fodder in the war arc.
> 
> He also beat the young Sannins....When Orochimaru was still human, Jiraiya most likely without his Toad training and Tsunade without Byakugo.
> 
> ...


 I'm pretty sure they're talking pure portrayal not feats my friend.


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## Butthurt McWowimacunt (Jul 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> In my opinion, Jiraiya can't hold off Itachi long enough to enter SM and he's going to be put down by a Mangekyo Technique. It's a good fight but I don't see Jiraiya lasting very long in all honesty. Itachi can access his best techniques immediately and Jiraiya can't.



Jiraiya can access a lot of things immediately. -snip-
& im puhhrrty sure that Sensing Barrier, Yomi Numa, Kebari Senbon, Hari Jizo _and most fearful of all_ :*SUBSTITUTION JUTSU *fall into that category of instant pee pee poo poo J man can use at his disposal right ? So idk. . .

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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Jiraya said it's unbelievable someone took on Hanzo on his own, if he said so then he himself doesn't think he can beat him in 1vs1 battle, and the difference isn't even close.
As for Mifune, he is simply the worst oppenent, poison simply can't do anything to him and that' why he survived against will-broken Hanzo who is far weaker than Prime Hanzo .


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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Kebari Senbon needs SM and Pa&Ma dude . Go look for DB3 description .

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## Butthurt McWowimacunt (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hanzo is freaking fodder in the war arc.
> 
> He also beat the young Sannins....When Orochimaru was still human, Jiraiya most likely without his Toad training and Tsunade without Byakugo.
> 
> ...



I read :  Hanzo is freaking Fodder - & then I thought " well okay , ty. "
Because like , by that logic ,(considering the context of Hanzos inclusion in this conversation in the first place) Itachi is fodder too oo ooh ? 


Itachi is Hanzo tier . Hanzo is fodder ( according to you ) , so Itachi = fodder ?
It all makes so much sense now ...

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## Butthurt McWowimacunt (Jul 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Kebari Senbon needs SM and Pa&Ma dude . Go look for DB3 description .


Oh , thank you.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Butthurt McWowimacunt said:


> Buddy this made me drop my sangria. Are you tellin me that Prime Hanzo , fucking dude who laid down-spared -and named all three fuckin Sannin- this guy- is on the same tier as Itachi?
> Fuckin MINATO , that guy is soup er strong!
> Itachi is a bad ass yeah , no denying that. But i don't see how you can confidently drop him on that tier and still expect anyone to believe you're a person who is capable of zipping up their pants in the morning.





Eli 2000 said:


> Man ! NBD is a proof that evolution CAN go in *reverse*.


I follow the general consensus :


It's not your case .


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## Eli 2000 (Jul 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I follow the general consensus :
> 
> 
> It's not your case .



- I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and throw up a smarter comeback than what you just said. 
- We follow a Canon manga statement that says Jiraiya > Itachi , " general consensus " isn't an argument .

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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Canon manga consensus is Orochimrau<<Itachi, according to DB3 he suffered complete defeat and was even marked for life.
Canon manga consensus said Itachi is a liar and want to protect Konoha's Shinobis (including Jiraya) and he lies a lot for this purpose .
Canon manga said Kishi's tiers changed a lot from P1 to P2 ask Hirzuen  .
Canon manga said Itachi is invincible, I guess it's also Jiraya's case lol...
Canon manga said in P2 , Itachi tought he was completly instoppable , so he himself believe he is far stronger than Jiraya and eleminate his P1 statement .



Eli 2000 said:


> - I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and throw up a smarter comeback than what you just said.
> - We follow a Canon manga statement that says Jiraiya > Itachi , " general consensus " isn't an argument .


Whe someone talk about consensus it's generally forum consensus, that's why it's quite confusing what you just said .


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Butthurt McWowimacunt said:


> I read :  Hanzo is freaking Fodder - & then I thought " well okay , ty. "
> Because like , by that logic ,(considering the context of Hanzos inclusion in this conversation in the first place) Itachi is fodder too oo ooh ?
> 
> 
> ...




Hanzo feats is fodder. 

Any other high kage is capable of the same feats. Hanzo isn't even high-kage based on feats.


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## Butthurt McWowimacunt (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hanzo feats is fodder.
> 
> Any other high kage is capable of the same feats. Hanzo isn't even high-kage based on feats.


 Ah schweeet - but I was actually talking portrayal home slice. Duzzzzzznt matter though , (although I appreciate ya pointing that out) because Itachi isn't Minato level or Tobirama level - - - The point I was making was that whoever I was responding to had Itachi's tier placement a confused, thass awl. Back on track though , combing through this thread, my magic 8 ball says J-man wins this.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Butthurt McWowimacunt said:


> Ah schweeet - but I was actually talking portrayal home slice. Duzzzzzznt matter though , (although I appreciate ya pointing that out) because Itachi isn't Minato level or Tobirama level - - - The point I was making was that whoever I was responding to had Itachi's tier placement a confused, thass awl. Back on track though , combing through this thread, my magic 8 ball says J-man wins this.




Lmao, portrayal doesn't really mean shit. 

We see so MANY shinobi's with MUCH BETTER portrayal than Hanzo and they're just high-tiers.


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## Butthurt McWowimacunt (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Lmao, portrayal doesn't really mean shit.
> 
> We see so MANY shinobi's with MUCH BETTER portrayal than Hanzo and they're just high-tiers.



You know when you get a fancy steak dinner and they put that green frilly little piece of parsley whatever the fuck on the side and you're like " am I supposed to eat this ? " , and everyone comes to the conclusion "wow that garnish is just SO irrelevant!" , that's what played through my head as I read this comment.

You're probably right about the Hanzo thing which I already acknowledged : so uh congratulations 
Thanks for responding to the one sliver of my comment we already had closure on. Cool beans heheh ^.^

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ARGUS (Jul 17, 2016)

Eli 2000 said:


> Man ! 3 days in here and the amount of dumbness is already over the top , people warned me about this place , but this is just ridiculous
> I mean , look at this trash
> 
> This is a facepalm worthy post .


3 days and your retarded ass is already banned. 
Good to see idiots getting what they deserve

If you're going to complain about this place then why are you here? 
If even that, then atleast have the decency to provide an argument Instead of just complaining 

And lol none of my post is trash 

 -- base Jiriaya can't counter Amaterasu, he can't counter Susanoo cutting him in half within the first second so yeah he gets low diffd 

SM jiraiya gets mid diffd 

 -- katon dries yomi numa and negates it's affect

 -- Susanoo tanks every attack he has and can still be used in frog call given that frog call is just physical paralysis and Susanoo requires no physical movement 

 -- once jiraiya or Itachi get close, Susanoo swings it's blade and cuts him In half

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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 17, 2016)

As much as I love Jiraya,although Itachi is one of my Favs too. Jiraya always have a special spot in my Fav List of Chars.

But I can't see J Man wining this,especially if he starts in Base. Itachi will end it quickly if they are serious and both in Base.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 17, 2016)

Jiraiya wins this mid diff. We've seen Jiraiya run around and enter sage mode against Pain, so he'd definitely have a chance against Itachi. Clones can be used against Amaterasu or as a diversion allowing Jiraiya to have time to enter sage mode. Summons are useless as Itachi has Totsuka blade. Swamps can stop Susanoo in its tracks, and then he can use cooperation ninjutsu to do some damage; Big Ball Rasengan would be of use aswell. Genjutsu is useless, and Tsukuyomi wouldn't work either as Jiraiya can use sage mode sensing instead of direct eye sight.


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## Ishmael (Jul 17, 2016)

Daichi Uchiha said:


> Jiraiya was killed by Nagato & Itachi can kill Nagato. I give it to Itachi



Hmmm......yo further explaining needed, and technically it was pein not nagato jiraiyi never fought nagato as an adult only pein.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Jiraiya wins this mid diff. We've seen Jiraiya run around and enter sage mode against Pain, so he'd definitely have a chance against Itachi. Clones can be used against Amaterasu or as a diversion allowing Jiraiya to have time to enter sage mode. Summons are useless as Itachi has Totsuka blade. Swamps can stop Susanoo in its tracks, and then he can use cooperation ninjutsu to do some damage; Big Ball Rasengan would be of use aswell. Genjutsu is useless, and Tsukuyomi wouldn't work either as Jiraiya can use sage mode sensing instead of direct eye sight.



Jiraiya run around and entered SM against Animal summons, NOT against all the paths. Let's be real here. Animal summons cannot be compared to Itachi in terms of danger, capability, speed, intellect and power. Clones cannot be used fast enough, especially against something he has NO IDEA ABOUT. Jiraiya doesn't know how Amateratsu is used OR how fast it is, so there's absolutely no way he can use jutsu's to defend/dodge or use clones to intercept it.

Swamps gets dodged. Odama Rasengan cannot breach Susano, so I don't know why you say it's going to be of use..lol

Genjutsu is absolutely NOT useless. Jiraiya hasn't even shown SM sensing on par with Kabuto, so lets not kid ourselves here. Feinting also works as a way of getting Jiraiya in genjutsu.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 17, 2016)

Anyone that can disprove that Itachi can walk on Yomi Numa?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 17, 2016)

Whats the catch here ?  In a neutral scenario Itachi stomps Jiraiya.
Jiraiya needs massive advantages to stand his ground.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Anyone that can disprove that Itachi can walk on Yomi Numa?


Yomi Numa is just an A rank technique, Sharingan can not only read those kind of Jutsu but also see the chakra => Itachi dodges Yomi Numa before he got traped because he is one of the most powerful Sharingan users in history .
In other hands, no one can explain how Jiraya is surviving Amaterasu, Susano'o and how he will got an easy time just trying not to look on Itachi's eyes .


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 17, 2016)

I'm asking for someone to show that Itachi CAN'T walk on Yomi Numa, CAN'T initiate a jutsu before Jiraiya can initiate Yomi Numa, and CAN'T outright dodge Yomi Numa.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> I'm asking for someone to show that Itachi CAN'T walk on Yomi Numa, CAN'T initiate a jutsu before Jiraiya can initiate Yomi Numa, and CAN'T outright dodge Yomi Numa.


Ah ok


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## Monty Burns (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya run around and entered SM against Animal summons, NOT against all the paths. Let's be real here. Animal summons cannot be compared to Itachi in terms of danger, capability, speed, intellect and power. Clones cannot be used fast enough, especially against something he has NO IDEA ABOUT. Jiraiya doesn't know how Amateratsu is used OR how fast it is, so there's absolutely no way he can use jutsu's to defend/dodge or use clones to intercept it.
> 
> Swamps gets dodged. Odama Rasengan cannot breach Susano, so I don't know why you say it's going to be of use..lol
> 
> Genjutsu is absolutely NOT useless. Jiraiya hasn't even shown SM sensing on par with Kabuto, so lets not kid ourselves here. Feinting also works as a way of getting Jiraiya in genjutsu.



Jiraiya knows about Amaterasu as he's dealt with it before. If Jiraiya uses clones as a diversion, along with summons he'd have the time to enter sage mode, especially when toads have the ability to shoot jets of oil, water bullets and fire.

I don't know how he can dodge a swamp if it can cover an entire battlefield. Anyway along with toad summonings he'd be surrounded; swamp underneath and other attacks coming from all directions.

Once in sage mode, Big Ball Rasengan might damage the Susanoo if he figures out its weak spot (it's spine). That along with cooperation ninjutsu would surely do some damage to it. Frog Song can also be used to paralyse Itachi's senses temporarily making him and his Susanoo vulnerable.

Genjutsu is useless because sage mode does enhance your sensing abilities a lot. Plus with Ma and Pa on his shoulders partner method can also be used.

Jiraiya is also a clever tactician, with speed and power. That with superior long range jutsu, he has what it takes to beat him.

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## Turrin (Jul 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> In my opinion, Jiraiya can't hold off Itachi long enough to enter SM and he's going to be put down by a Mangekyo Technique. It's a good fight but I don't see Jiraiya lasting very long in all honesty. Itachi can access his best techniques immediately and Jiraiya can't.


When does Itachi start matches w/ Mangekyo techniques? Itachi starts matches w/ basic elemental Jutsu, Taijutsu, ShurikenJutsu, or at worse some lesser Genjutsu variant (Finger/3T). Jiraiya achieved SM against Pain whose stronger than Itachi, and even if you say it was just Animal-Realm, Animal-Realm's boss summon spam is > than what Itachi starts his matches w/ and yet Jiraiya still achieved SM. Now of course you can argue type advantages and match conditions could alter the end result allowing the weaker Itachi to prevent SM where the stronger Pain failed; however the match conditions favor Jiraiya, Amegakuru is an ideal location for Jiraiya to achieve SM and Manga knowledge means Jiraiya has knowledge of Itachi's formidable Sharingan-Genjutsu and overall combat prowess, and won't get taken off guard easily. As far as type match up goes, Jiraiya is well suited to avoid Itachi's start of match move-set; he has greater command of the elemental wheel & more chakra to pump into his elemental techs than Itachi so he can shut down Itachi's basic elemental Ninjutsu, he's also not so poor at CQC that Itachi will be able to easily overwhelm him w/ Taijutsu/ShurikenJutsu; between Hari Jizo, Rasengans, Clones, and Summons he should be fine, and finally for basic he was able to defend himself against a completely invisible enemy who was spamming much higher level attacks than Itachi will be via Motion Detection barrier while he prepped SM so he should be fine defending himself while avoiding eye-contact until he achieves SM.

SM-Jiraiya vs Itachi, is debatable, but the idea that Jiraiya is unlikely to reach SM, especially given these conditions is not; there's no way Kishimoto wouldn't have him achieve SM here.



Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya run around and entered SM against Animal summons, NOT against all the paths. Let's be real here. Animal summons cannot be compared to Itachi in terms of danger, capability, speed, intellect and power. Clones cannot be used fast enough, especially against something he has NO IDEA ABOUT. Jiraiya doesn't know how Amateratsu is used OR how fast it is, so there's absolutely no way he can use jutsu's to defend/dodge or use clones to intercept it.


Pain using Animal Realm is >> the shit Itachi starts matches w/ that's why people don't seem willing to acknowledge.

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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 17, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Jiraiya knows about Amaterasu as he's dealt with it before. If Jiraiya uses clones as a diversion, along with summons he'd have the time to enter sage mode, especially when toads have the ability to shoot jets of oil, water bullets and fire.


Chapter 148, Page 8 Jiraiya says: "What on Earth did he draw out to create this... besides, what is this black flame."
Jiraiya has dealt with Amaterasu before, but can you prove to me that he knows how it works, how Itachi draws it, how it appears instantly and comes from focusing the eye on his target? 
Jiraiya might use summons, but when his first summon gets hit by Amaterasu, he is no longer wasting summons throughout the fight. It is not in his character, he is not like Pain.


Monty Burns said:


> I don't know how he can dodge a swamp if it can cover an entire battlefield.


Can you prove to me that his swamp can cover the entire battlefield? 


Monty Burns said:


> Once in sage mode, Big Ball Rasengan might damage the Susanoo if he figures out its weak spot (it's spine).


Can you show me Jiraiya's speed feats that suggest he can get around Itachi's Susanoo without Itachi's awareness? 


Monty Burns said:


> Frog Song can also be used to paralyse Itachi's senses temporarily making him and his Susanoo vulnerable.


How is Jiraiya getting into Sage Mode?


Monty Burns said:


> Jiraiya is also a clever tactician, with speed and power.


Itachi is a far superior tactician. Jiraiya could not figure out the secret of Pain's shared vision without Ma and Pa figuring it out.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> When does Itachi start matches w/ Mangekyo techniques? Itachi starts matches w/ basic elemental Jutsu, Taijutsu, ShurikenJutsu, or at worse some lesser Genjutsu variant (Finger/3T). Jiraiya achieved SM against Pain whose stronger than Itachi, and even if you say it was just Animal-Realm, Animal-Realm's boss summon spam is > than what Itachi starts his matches w/ and yet Jiraiya still achieved SM. Now of course you can argue type advantages and match conditions could alter the end result allowing the weaker Itachi to prevent SM where the stronger Pain failed; however the match conditions favor Jiraiya, Amegakuru is an ideal location for Jiraiya to achieve SM and Manga knowledge means Jiraiya has knowledge of Itachi's formidable Sharingan-Genjutsu and overall combat prowess, and won't get taken off guard easily. As far as type match up goes, Jiraiya is well suited to avoid Itachi's start of match move-set; he has greater command of the elemental wheel & more chakra to pump into his elemental techs than Itachi so he can shut down Itachi's basic elemental Ninjutsu, he's also not so poor at CQC that Itachi will be able to easily overwhelm him w/ Taijutsu/ShurikenJutsu; between Hari Jizo, Rasengans, Clones, and Summons he should be fine, and finally for basic he was able to defend himself against a completely invisible enemy who was spamming much higher level attacks than Itachi will be via Motion Detection barrier while he prepped SM so he should be fine defending himself while avoiding eye-contact until he achieves SM.
> 
> SM-Jiraiya vs Itachi, is debatable, but the idea that Jiraiya is unlikely to reach SM, especially given these conditions is not; there's no way Kishimoto wouldn't have him achieve SM here.
> 
> ...




The bold is a VERY bold claim indeed.


The "basic shit" that Itachi starts his match with nearly took out Killer Bee, one of the top tiers within a few panels. All with a combination of Katon, genjutsu and shurikens. Without Hachibi there to snap him out, he would've died like fodder.

Now lets see how many people have Hachibi/Kyuubi/Sharingan to defend against this "basic shit" ? Jiraiya sure as hell doesn't, ESPECIALLY with the added disadvantage that he has to* keep his hands together at all times* in order to summon Ma & Pa.

Itachi's basic shit is much more dangerous than Animal Realm. That's a fact.

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## Ryuzaki (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The bold is a VERY bold claim indeed.
> 
> 
> The "basic shit" that Itachi starts his match with nearly took out Killer Bee, one of the top tiers within a few panels. All with a combination of Katon, genjutsu and shurikens. Without Hachibi there to snap him out, he would've died like fodder.
> ...


Jiraiya wouldn't give Itachi the opportunity to look at his eyes, since he would have knowledge on his opponent, Killer Bee by manga standards might be dumber than Naruto. That might be a stretch too but seriously though KB is pretty stupid. It's not fair to compare him against the tactical genius/experience of Jiraiya.

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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Itachi Sharinganless Genjutsu alone is more dangerous than anything Animal path can do with his weak summoning, his Shuriken techniques are also more dangerous, his clone feints, his basic ninjutsu inteligence, Animal path never showed such a level of fighting skill.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Jiraiya wouldn't give Itachi the opportunity to look at his eyes, since he would have knowledge on his opponent, Killer Bee by manga standards might be dumber than Naruto. That might be a stretch too but seriously though KB is pretty stupid. It's not fair to compare him against the tactical genius/experience of Jiraiya.




Jiraiya can try not to give an opportunity, but Itachi can create an opportunity.......Itachi CREATES his own opportunities, as seen many times in his previous battles whether through feints/clones or using his opponent's lack of knowledge on himself.
You are right in saying that It's not fir to compare Jiraiya to Naruto and Killer Bee in terms of intellect, but those two have more than comparable battle experience (Bee is quite experienced) and tactics (with Hachibi's help).

But......It is also not fair for you to compare Jiraiya's intellect/tactical genius against Itachi who has shown much greater feats. Itachi figured out Nagato's shared vision in 2-3 panels while *Jiraiya with Ma & Pa *took an *entire chapter* to figure the shared vision and form a strategy. The clear gap in their analytical abilities and strategy has been clearly portrayed by Kishimoto. It would be intellectually dishonest to deny these points above and still claim that Jiraiya's "tactical genius" or experience will be a problem for Itachi at all. In fact, It's the other way around, with Itachi having an overwhelming advantage.


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## Turrin (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The bold is a VERY bold claim indeed.


It's absolutely not a bold claim at all. Multiple Giant Boss Summons all with unique and powerful abilities is on a level well beyond the level of moves Itachi starts battles out w/. Do you think PI-Kakashi is going to be able to counter Animal Realm's Boss-Summons, like how he countered Itachi's openings moves; or even how SPII-Kakashi countered Shoten-Itachi's opening moves, etc... Fuck we have a direct comparison in the Nagato/Itachi fight, where KCM-Naruto struggled a shit ton more dealing w/ Nagato's Animal Path Summons than he did countering Itachi's opening gambit of the match.

Honestly I find it silly that I even need to explain that one of the Rinnengan's 6 Path abilities is intended to be more difficult to handle than Basic Elemental Jutsu, Taijtusu, or even Genjutsu, by the author.



> The "basic shit" that Itachi starts his match with nearly took out Killer Bee,


Itachi's "Basic-Shit" allowed him to keep up w/ _*Base*_-B, that's it. Saying he nearly took out B is an exaggeration and you know it.



> Now lets see how many people have Hachibi/Kyuubi/Sharingan to defend against this "basic shit" ? Jiraiya sure as hell doesn't, ESPECIALLY with the added disadvantage that he has to* keep his hands together at all times* in order to summon Ma & Pa.


Jiraiya tracked/combated an enemy he couldn't even see who was spamming boss-sized summons at his ass, all the while keeping his hands together. So I have absolute confidence he could combat Itachi's inferior arsenal while avoiding eye contact.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 17, 2016)

Due to this being a realistic battle scenario that is set in Amegakure, I don't see how Jiraiya isn't going to win with mid-to-high difficulty. Both of them are in-character, so Itachi is not starting out with his Mangekyo, and all of his regular ninjutsu can easily be dealt with and overpowered by Jiraiya's superior ones. Once Jiraiya realizes the level Itachi is at and comes to understand that he needs to use Sage Mode, he should already have more than enough time to execute it and once that happens Itachi is going inevitably lose as he cannot deal with Jiraiya in SM for a number of reasons.

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## Eliyua23 (Jul 17, 2016)

Close match 

Itachi's base nin is overrated as fuck , there is nothing he has in his arsenal that Jiraiya wont be able to counter with his own nin, both can hold their own in a tai contest but that is neither speciality , they are similar in ways most don't recognize , but we have Itachi's mindset down to a t because he's had more panel time to showcase his fighting style where as Jiraiya only fought in the Sannin battle , while drugged and against the Pain Paths where he was fighting multiple enemies at once but my guess is neither really gets close to each other initially ,

Jiraiya in base should only have to worry about his 3t gen but it has poor feats against top tiers and once Jiraiya reaches SM it shouldn't even be an issue , they probably counter each others techniques until Susanoo comes out but Susanoo showed a weakness against Sound Gen , and Frog Song is a very powerful sound gen , but only thing when Itachi pulls out Susanoo he might feel totsuka is the way to go especially if he's fighting to kill and it has been shown to be pretty fast , that could pose a problem for Jiraiya , so this depends on what happens first , can Jiraiya pull out frog before totsuka , and these arguments leave this battle up to speculation , much like Naruto vs Sasuke at the end of the Kages arc


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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:
			
		

> Jiraiya in base should only have to worry about his 3t gen but it has poor feats against top tiers


Such as defeating Oro ?


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> It's absolutely not a bold claim at all. Multiple Giant Boss Summons all with unique and powerful abilities is on a level well beyond the level of moves Itachi starts battles out w/. Do you think PI-Kakashi is going to be able to counter Animal Realm's Boss-Summons, like how he countered Itachi's openings moves; or even how SPII-Kakashi countered Shoten-Itachi's opening moves, etc... Fuck we have a direct comparison in the Nagato/Itachi fight, where KCM-Naruto struggled a shit ton more dealing w/ Nagato's Animal Path Summons than he did countering Itachi's opening gambit of the match.
> 
> Honestly I find it silly that I even need to explain that one of the Rinnengan's 6 Path abilities is intended to be more difficult to handle than Basic Elemental Jutsu, Taijtusu, or even Genjutsu, by the author.
> 
> ...




What "unique" and "powerful" abilities exactly? Lmao. The only summon that's worth a damn is the dog summon.

Kakashi as a character is much more suited against opponents like Itachi because he himself has the sharingan. If the goal of Kakashi was to simply run and hide against the summons like Jiraiya did, I have no doubt Kakashi could have done the same or went straight for its summoner.


What direct comparison here exactly? Naruto didn't struggle a "shit ton". He was simply too stupid to figure out its weakness. He has the capability, but not the brains to use his power. Itachi one paneled that dog, but that doesn't mean Itachi >>> Naruto, does it?


One of the Rinnegan's 6 Path abilities does not (barring deva) > Itachi's base abilities at all ESPECIALLY in a 1v1 scenario. I find it silly that I need to even explain match-ups here.

As for your last paragraph, you know for a fact that Bee nearly got trolled low-diff by basic shit. Without the instant partner method of Hachibi, Killer Bee would've died. That same Killer Bee who soloed all of Taka in his base.

The whole point of this is that Itachi can end his opponents before they can unleash their full power. Pretty basic shit to be fair.



Eliyua23 said:


> Close match
> 
> Itachi's base nin is overrated as fuck , there is nothing he has in his arsenal that Jiraiya wont be able to counter with his own nin, *both can hold their own in a tai contest but that is neither speciality *, they are similar in ways most don't recognize , but we have Itachi's mindset down to a t because he's had more panel time to showcase his fighting style where as Jiraiya only fought in the Sannin battle , while drugged and against the Pain Paths where he was fighting multiple enemies at once but my guess is neither really gets close to each other initially ,
> 
> Jiraiya in base should only have to *worry about his 3t gen but it has poor feats against top tiers* and once Jiraiya reaches SM it shouldn't even be an issue , they probably counter each others techniques until Susanoo comes out but Susanoo showed a weakness against Sound Gen , and Frog Song is a very powerful sound gen , but only thing when Itachi pulls out Susanoo he might feel totsuka is the way to go especially if he's fighting to kill and it has been shown to be pretty fast , that could pose a problem for Jiraiya , so this depends on what happens first , can Jiraiya pull out frog before totsuka , and these arguments leave this battle up to speculation , much like Naruto vs Sasuke at the end of the Kages arc



First bold - So you're trying to say that Jiraiya without hands is equal to Itachi in Taijutsu?



2nd Bold - Orochimaru and Killer Bee? Raikage?


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Such as defeating Oro ?



He wasn't defeated by Gen , that panel was just to demonstrate that Orochimaru wasn't strong enough to overcome the sharingan and take Itachi's body , it wasn't to show that Orochimaru is weak to Gen , thats specific because it wasn't a proper fight where Orochimaru lost to gen , he was using a specific technique where he was trying to take Itachi's body and got countered so no

Reactions: Informative 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 17, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> He wasn't defeated by Gen , that panel was just to demonstrate that Orochimaru wasn't strong enough to overcome the sharingan and take Itachi's body , it wasn't to show that Orochimaru is weak to Gen , thats specific because it wasn't a proper fight where Orochimaru lost to gen , he was using a specific technique where he was trying to take Itachi's body and got countered so no


His 3T Genjutsu was strong enough to beat Orochimaru as stated in the 3rd DB Jutsu profile . I didn't say Jiraya will be instantly caught, but Jiraya will have a hard time trying to fight Itachi while not looking in his eyes . Chiyo , a legendary Kunoichi , said even fodders Uchiha are hard to deal with in 1v1 battle because of this .


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> What "unique" and "powerful" abilities exactly? Lmao. The only summon that's worth a damn is the dog summon.
> 
> Kakashi as a character is much more suited against opponents like Itachi because he himself has the sharingan. If the goal of Kakashi was to simply run and hide against the summons like Jiraiya did, I have no doubt Kakashi could have done the same or went straight for its summoner.
> 
> ...



? , Jiraiya only had one proper fight one in which i base tai exchange really didn't take place , he didn't get to fight a Bee, Raikage , Gai type where he could flash his base tai , but both having the same score and his feats with SM show both can hold their own , albeit not  being their speciality neither is winning because of tai 

Like I said Orochimaru wasn't defeated by/because of Gen , he just had the body tech countered and showed he can't overcome the sharingan using that technique because Itachi is too strong , it wasn't a battle to kill where Itachi just beat him with Gen like Deidara , when did he beat Bee with 3t gen , and to my knowledge Itachi never fought Raikage


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 17, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> His 3T Genjutsu was strong enough to beat Orochimaru as stated in the 3rd DB Jutsu profile . I didn't say Jiraya will be instantly caught, but Jiraya will have a hard time trying to fight Itachi while not looking in his eyes . Chiyo , a legendary Kunoichi , said even fodders Uchiha are hard to deal with in 1v1 battle because of this .



But you have to look at the conditions , Orochimaru stood right in front of Itachi and tried to take his body , he wasn't actively trying to fight him in a proper battle , it shows Itachi's sharingan prowess was too much for orochimaru to overcome and take his body , oro isn't an idiot but he just keeps falling to sharingan because he's trying to take a uchiha body but thats apart of the risk for that technique , it would be different if orochimaru was trying to kill itachi in a regular one vs one fight


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> He wasn't defeated by Gen , that panel was just to demonstrate that Orochimaru wasn't strong enough to overcome the sharingan and take Itachi's body , it wasn't to show that Orochimaru is weak to Gen , thats specific because it wasn't a proper fight where Orochimaru lost to gen , he was using a specific technique where he was trying to take Itachi's body and got countered so no





Failing to break out of a genjutsu before getting hit by the follow up attack looks defeated to me. Any other shinobi without healing abilities would've died if they were that slow.





Eliyua23 said:


> ? , Jiraiya only had one proper fight one in which i base tai exchange really didn't take place , he didn't get to fight a Bee, Raikage , Gai type where he could flash his base tai , but both having the same score and his feats with SM show both can hold their own , albeit not being their speciality neither is winning because of tai
> 
> Like I said Orochimaru wasn't defeated by/because of Gen , he just had the body tech countered and showed he can't overcome the sharingan using that technique because Itachi is too strong , it wasn't a battle to kill where Itachi just beat him with Gen like Deidara , when did he beat Bee with 3t gen , and to my knowledge Itachi never fought Raikage




It still doesn't suggest that Jiraiya can stand a chance against someone who actually has good taijutsu feats......While fighting without the use of his arms.......That's absolutely ridiculous.

I even doubt that Gai himself can fight Itachi without using his arms at all, especially when he's not looking at Itachi's upper body at all and trying to look out for Itachi's feints etc. It's a feat that only God-tiers should be able to perform.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Failing to break out of a genjutsu before getting hit by the follow up attack looks defeated to me. Any other shinobi without healing abilities would've died if they were that slow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thats why I said Gen didn't defeat him nor could it in itself , hence why he took the risk , and like I said what other top tier is going to stand right in front of Itachi and instead of going for an offensive strike move, instead trying to take his body , that isn't a normal fighting scenario but that and other counters between Sharingan and Oro abilities was to demonstrate Sharingan>Hebi or any technique he ever used 

Why is Jiraiya fighting Itachi with no hands , is that a stipulation ?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 17, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Susano'o/Totsuka are the definitive deal breaker for Itachi's victory, everything leading up to it will be a wash. Jiraiya's too experienced to make a mistake as giving Itachi an opportunity to cast a genjutsu and he's well aware of the black flames. He doesn't know how they'll come but they will make an appearance. I'll give him that but he actually stops at Susano'o, Itachi is going to be impossible to beat, at least for Jiraiya after Susano'o makes it's way to the battlefield.



If he summons Fukasaku and Shima wouldn't that plausibly grant him knowledge on all MS jutsu considering Ni Dai Sennin's age and awareness of ocular powers? Going by the manga and databooks, the MS trinity had a reputation. So surely there'll be knowledge there to help Jiraiya out, such as Susanoo being unable to block out sound jutsu.



Marsala said:


> If Yomi Numa was so powerful and unbeatable, Jiraiya would have just used it on Pain at the start. Instead, he didn't use it except as a pre-set trap that caught a BLIND body of Pain as part of a larger trap.



He could not find Animal Realm till Shima got him. After that there was a Pain that completely nullified the effectiveness of Ninjutsu; the blind Pain caught in Yomi Numa was the one that couldn't nullify Ninjutsu.

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## Monty Burns (Jul 17, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Chapter 148, Page 8 Jiraiya says: "What on Earth did he draw out to create this... besides, what is this black flame."
> Jiraiya has dealt with Amaterasu before, but can you prove to me that he knows how it works, how Itachi draws it, how it appears instantly and comes from focusing the eye on his target?
> Jiraiya might use summons, but when his first summon gets hit by Amaterasu, he is no longer wasting summons throughout the fight. It is not in his character, he is not like Pain.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya plays the long range battle and far exceeds Itachi at that, so Amaterasu won't be that much of a problem. Plus with multiple summons each firing oil, fire and water he has no time to launch Amaterasu. Even if he does manage to use it, with Jiraiya fighting long range, he would be able to evade it. I don't think it'd be a good idea for Itachi to take out all his summons using Amaterasu, it is very chakra taxing afterall.

Jiraiya's swamp was able to stop Orochimaru's snake summon in its tracks, and this is while he was drugged. A full healthy Jiraiya with senjutsu influence could create a swamp that covers the battlefield. If Itachi reacts and jumps up, Jiraiya can simply fire flame bullets at him. Using a swamp would be a good counter against his Susanoo aswell.

If Danzo managed to get behind Sasuke's Susanoo, Jiraiya in Sage Mode would be able to do so. If he uses Frog Song and succeeds Jiraiya could end it here.

Jiraiya managed to bypass the Human Path, multiple summons, shared vision, and the destruction while keeping his hands still. He can use clones like he did against Pain to create diversions. Itachi has no jutsu comparable to this to actually stop him in his tracks, and kill him before he even enters Sage Mode.

I know that Itachi is a superior tactician, however it doesn't mean Jiraiya can be taken lightly.

If there's the slightest of openings reverse summonings or pitting him in a toad's stomach would seal the win.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

@Sapherosth sorry for replying so late man, I was busy and people were having their own debates within this thread that I was interested in. Anyway here: 





Sapherosth said:


> Itachi just jumps out of range. Quite easy.
> If it's large, Itachi jumps up and use katon on the ground to harden it. Easy counter.
> Itachi can also use Sharingan precog to intercept his hand seals. Easy counter.


 If Itachi jumps in the air, Yomi Numa is far too wide for him to land safely. He has zero feats to suggest he could escape the AOE, if you think you can prove me wrong please go find the feats it doesn't make me happy to know Itachi will get caught in this Jutsu. If he uses Katon, Jiraiya could add Toad Oil to the mixture which would most definitely burn Itachi, also since when does Katon>Doton? Itachi can use Sharingan Precog and run as fast as he wants the AOE is too large and too quick for him to escape. That's like saying Sharingan Precog gives Itachi the ability to dodge the AOE of attacks like Sand Tsunami or .. Mandas bite considering Gamabunta sat on Yomi Numa and it was larger than him.


> Whereas Jiraiya has no real counter to Amateratsu (no reaction or speed to dodge) and Tsukuyomi (no methods of avoiding KB feint/genjutsu). Especially during the CQC hand grab from Susanoo will be epic. Jiraiya gets squashed.


Been addressed.





> So you're trying to say Jiraiya's technique that only worked on a blind path will work on a much faster/sharingan precog Itachi? You saying Jiraiya used it "effectively" against a blind path is like me saying Itachi used his Tosuka sword effectively through the smoke against a much stronger character which is Nagato, therefore it's going to work against Jiraiya?


 Itachi had back up. Not any back up two Jinchuriki. Not any Jinchuriki. Naruto & Killer bee. They aren't the Jinchuriki to just any tailed beasts. They're the Jinchuriki to the Nine-Tails and to Eight Tails. Itachi, if he completed that feat by himself then yes I would completely count it but he didn't now did he??????? If Naruto & KB were not there he likely would've been sucked into CT & brought back to Kabuto so he can be useful as a weapon again.Also another counter to Sharingan Precog. If Jiraiya were to use a Yomi Numa just at Itachis feet would he even see it? Since when is Itachi always staring at his feet in battle? (Inb4 Yata counters Yomi Numa. If Yata hits Yomi Numa Itachi will shock the living shit out of himself. Water conducts electricity and there is nothing that suggests Itachi can control Yatas output. It's a weapon/tool.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

@Equilibrium139 
*Spoiler*: _Databook 2 - Doton Yomi Numa_ 



Earth Release: Underworld* Swamp (土遁・黄泉沼, Doton: Yomi Numa)
Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, All ranges
User: Jiraiya

The more you struggle, the more you sink
A bottomless swamp from Hell!!

By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body. It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape from there. The size and depth of the created swamp depend on the user's skill and the amount of chakra used, but if the user is an expert in this technique, it will always be possible to make a fair-sized swamp! When fighting a great number of enemies or having to face gigantic creatures, this is an extremely effective technique.

↓The giant snake captured in this bog is prevented from moving! But if you ask Jiraiya, he'd say it is insufficient. The real goal of this technique is to completely submerge the target underground.
[picture of Orochimaru's snake summon caught in this technique]

This swamp goes down to abysmal depths!!

*Yomi is the place where the you go after death according to the Japanese Shinto mythology. Since Buddhism was introduced in Japan, it is also considered one of the Buddhist hells.

It's unlike the Western concepts of Heaven and Hell, though. It isn't a paradise in any way, nor is it a place for punsiment. All the dead, regardless of their behaviour in life, go there to carry on a gloomy and shadowy existance and rot for all eternity.


This is Jutsu not a lake of mud, walking on it with chakra??? Why don't you prove he _can_ walk on Yomi Numa instead of making us do _your_ work. Also it has covered a battlefield.  Why don't you start proving your claims instead of relying on others. You dug this hole, it's up to you to substantiate your arguments. You didn't prove anything therefore there is nothing for me to disprove.

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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 17, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> This is Jutsu not a lake of mud, walking on it with chakra???


Is it not a liquid? Does it not flow like a liquid?


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Why don't you prove he _can_ walk on Yomi Numa instead of making us do _your_ work.


Chapter 326 Page 11. I am NOT comparing Izumo to Jiraiya. I am comparing the mechanics of Izumo's jutsu to the initial mechanics of Yomi Numa, as it states in the databook, "The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body." Yomi Numa does the same exact thing as Mizuame Nabara in it's INITIAL phase, before it can sink the enemy. It simply "ensnares", or traps them. 


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Also it has covered a battlefield.


The scan which you showed me showed Yomi Numa not even spanning the complete length of that snake. What kind of battlefield is this small? 


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Jiraiya said this is too small. Itachi could not escape this without: Raiton or Summoning.


Can you prove this jutsu is faster than Itachi? Can you show me the feats? Can you show me the hype?


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Why don't you start proving your claims instead of relying on others. You dug this hole, it's up to you to substantiate your arguments. You didn't prove anything therefore there is nothing for me to disprove.


I'm not digging a hole brother, and I have no problem accepting that Yomi Numa beats Itachi if the Manga supports it. Can I not ask you for proof of your claims or is that out of bounds for this debate?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Is it not a liquid? Does it not flow like a liquid?


 It's chakra infused MUD. It's a Doton, not a Suiton. Flowing like liquid doesn't change its nature nor does it suggest the fact Itachi could walk on it.



> Chapter 326 Page 11. I am NOT comparing Izumo to Jiraiya. I am comparing the mechanics of Izumo's jutsu to the initial mechanics of Yomi Numa, as it states in the databook, "The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body." Yomi Numa does the same exact thing as Mizuame Nabara in it's INITIAL phase, before it can sink the enemy. It simply "ensnares", or traps them.


 There are three things wrong with this comparison. This suiton is a C-Rank Jutsu and it specifically states in the databook that it can be countered if one focuses chakra to their feet. Mizuame Nabara is not meant to sink it's opponent, the mechanics of trapping it's opponent work very differently, chakra infused mud will literally grabs and sinks you. "the enemy is sunk deep underground" they don't just naturally sink with gravity it's a force.



> The scan which you showed me showed Yomi Numa not even spanning the complete length of that snake. What kind of battlefield is this small?






> Can you prove this jutsu is faster than Itachi?


 Yes. This Jutsu requires a single hand sign and activates instantly. It takes one panel for that entire snake to be submerged. A regular human sized target with Itachis feats can't escape it.

There you go.



> Can you show me the feats?


 I have.


> Can you show me the hype?


 The hype for Yomi Numa? Okay, it sunk a gigantic snake and Jiraiya thought it was too small. He hyped the jutsus effect by saying it's normally more effective.



> I'm not digging a hole brother





> Can anyone prove Itachi can't walk on Yomi Numa?





> and I have no problem accepting that Yomi Numa beats Itachi if the Manga supports it.


 Welcome to the team. 





> Can I not ask you for proof of your claims or is that out of bounds for this debate?


 I have.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

Eliyua23 said:


> ? , Jiraiya only had one proper fight one in which i base tai exchange really didn't take place , he didn't get to fight a Bee, Raikage , Gai type where he could flash his base tai , but both having the same score and his feats with SM show both can hold their own , albeit not  being their speciality neither is winning because of tai
> 
> Like I said Orochimaru wasn't defeated by/because of Gen , he just had the body tech countered and showed he can't overcome the sharingan using that technique because Itachi is too strong , it wasn't a battle to kill where Itachi just beat him with Gen like Deidara , when did he beat Bee with 3t gen , and to my knowledge Itachi never fought Raikage





Eliyua23 said:


> Thats why I said Gen didn't defeat him nor could it in itself , hence why he took the risk , and like I said what other top tier is going to stand right in front of Itachi and instead of going for an offensive strike move, instead trying to take his body , that isn't a normal fighting scenario but that and other counters between Sharingan and Oro abilities was to demonstrate Sharingan>Hebi or any technique he ever used
> 
> *Why is Jiraiya fighting Itachi with no hands , is that a stipulation *?



Jiraiya fighting with no hands is stipulation for all of his fights - if he wants to enter SM. If he starts in SM, this disadvantage would disappear.

All of my examples simply showed how 3T sharingan genjutsu can give the opening Itachi needs to end the fight, not that the genjutsu itself ending the fight. The reason why people like Chiyo/Gai either choose to flee 1v1 or train to fight while avoiding eye contact specifically shows just how dangerous 3T genjutsu really is and how hard it is to avoid it.
Sakura who is one a medic nin who's also pretty clever herself outright stated how difficult it is to fight without eye contact. The finger genjutsu can also be used to create opening instead if Jiraiya did try to avoid Itachi's eyes.

It all sounds like too much of a disadvantage against Jiraiya.





HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Sapherosth sorry for replying so late man, I was busy and people were having their own debates within this thread that I was interested in. Anyway here:  *If Itachi jumps in the air, Yomi Numa is far too wide for him to land safely. He has zero feats to suggest he could escape the AOE, if you think you can prove me wrong please go find the feats it doesn't make me happy to know Itachi will get caught in this Jutsu. If he uses Katon, Jiraiya could add Toad Oil to the mixture which would most definitely burn Itachi, also since when does Katon>Doton? Itachi can use Sharingan Precog and run as fast as he wants the AOE is too large and too quick for him to escape.* That's like saying Sharingan Precog gives Itachi the ability to dodge the AOE of attacks like Sand Tsunami or .. Mandas bite considering Gamabunta sat on Yomi Numa and it was larger than him.
> Been addressed. Itachi had back up. Not any back up two Jinchuriki. Not any Jinchuriki. Naruto & Killer bee. They aren't the Jinchuriki to just any tailed beasts. They're the Jinchuriki to the Nine-Tails and to Eight Tails. Itachi, if he completed that feat by himself then yes I would completely count it but he didn't now did he??????? If Naruto & KB were not there he likely would've been sucked into CT & brought back to Kabuto so he can be useful as a weapon again.Also another counter to Sharingan Precog. If Jiraiya were to use a Yomi Numa just at Itachis feet would he even see it? Since when is Itachi always staring at his feet in battle? (Inb4 Yata counters Yomi Numa. If Yata hits Yomi Numa Itachi will shock the living shit out of himself. Water conducts electricity and there is nothing that suggests Itachi can control Yatas output. It's a weapon/tool.



Itachi only needs to jump or use shunshin towards Jiraiya (he jumped pretty high up and quite far to get to Nagato's bird), since Jiraiya won't be turning the areas he's standing on into swamps as well (any attacks Jiraiya tries to stop Itachi with can be blocked by Susano/or dodged). If Jiraiya is too far he can jump up and use katon to harden the swamp. Additionally, Jiraiya adding toad Oil into the mix as a counter to Itachi's Katon sounds too good to be true considering that's something granted by sharingan precog/hand seal reading. That's something Itachi should be able to do with his sharingan, not Jiraiya without one. Even if Jiraiya managed to luckily pull it off, Itachi can just land with a rib-cage Susano safely.

Katon > Doton Mud because Fire/heat hardens mud......That's common sense really. I am pretty sure we even saw it during the whole SA vs Juubi combo attack.

You absolutely cannot compare Sand Tsunami to Yomi Numa.....Yomi Numa only happens at the bottom, whereas Sand Tsunami comes at you like a huge wave of sand so simply jumping isn't going to cut it. There's a huge difference.

Itachi's "back-up" had to be saved twice, and only used 1 jutsu and that was only because Itachi ordered it. The CT could have been destroyed SOLO if it was done before the debris started collecting (meaning no wasting time explaining the situation to Naruto/Bee). Multiple Yasaka's can be thrown, no reason why it has to be 1 Yasaka vs CT.

If Jiraiya forms the seal to use Yomi Numa, Itachi will naturally see the Doton hand seals and know that an earth based attack will be coming......Sharingan precog.


And one last thing, the Databook info on Yomi Numa specifically stated that the technique is useful against large numbers or large summons - It sounds as if Kishi is trying to suggest that this technique is not as useful against single elite shinobi's like you're trying to suggest.






Monty Burns said:


> Jiraiya plays the long range battle and far exceeds Itachi at that, so Amaterasu won't be that much of a problem. Plus with multiple summons each firing oil, fire and water he has no time to launch Amaterasu. Even if he does manage to use it, with Jiraiya fighting long range, he would be able to evade it. I don't think it'd be a good idea for Itachi to take out all his summons using Amaterasu, it is very chakra taxing afterall.
> 
> Jiraiya's swamp was able to stop Orochimaru's snake summon in its tracks, and this is while he was drugged. A full healthy Jiraiya with senjutsu influence could create a swamp that covers the battlefield. If Itachi reacts and jumps up, Jiraiya can simply fire flame bullets at him. Using a swamp would be a good counter against his Susanoo aswell.
> 
> ...



Jiraiya's long range doesn't look impressive, what are you talking about. All of Jiraiya's battles are pretty much close range and CQC. The only impressive feat of Jiraiya using anything close to long range is the Gama+Jiraiya's fire/oil combo back in part 1.

Amateratsu will always be a problem for Jiraiya because Jiraiya's speed isn't enough to avoid the sharingan, plus Jiraiya's lack of knowledge on how Amateratsu works is even more detrimental. The people who effectively countered Amateratsu either has prior intel (Sasuke/Raikage) or hax like Obito/Danzo. Jiraiya has no hax or intel.

Jiraiya's summons gets dealt with by genjutsu or Itachi's Tosuka sword, whichever is more convenient. Itachi likes to defeat his opponents fast.

The swamp case I've already addressed counters to it. 

Danzo only managed to get behind Susano because he can pretty much choose where he'll re-spawn with Izanagi...Jiraiya doesn't have Izanagi.

What do you mean that Itachi has no comparable technique to stop Jiraiya?  Itachi's genjutsu ability alone is more dangerous in ending a fight than the summons. You mentioned Jiraiya using clones to create diversions, but Itachi can also do the same....but better, with his sharingans and feinting skill that has feinted a SM/EMS user. Jiraiya in his base won't stand a chance.

Itachi is a better tactician, you are right, but you are wrong in saying Jiraiya is even anywhere close. We already see how the two compared when dealing with the same technique. Itachi figured it out in a few Panels while Jiraiya with Ma & Pa together took an entire chapter to work it out. Itachi >> Jiraiya+Ma & Pa in analytical ability.


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## Ashi (Jul 17, 2016)

Itachi could probably walk on the Yomi numa thing


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 17, 2016)

The fact that most of the posts in this thread have not proposed an actual legit counter to how Itachi deals with Yomi Numa (other than instantly avoiding it, somehow magically completely jumping away, or even sensing it ahead of time) let alone a Yomi Numa + Yatai Kuzushi combo is only further signifying that Jiraiya himself does indeed have even more lethal and instant-kill jutsus that can be executed even faster than Itachi's Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi can and have far greater range, and indicate that if he so desires he is equally if not even more capable than one-shotting Itachi if Itachi is capable of one-shotting him.

Especially when you look at the track record of what their respective techniques have actually managed to do throughout the series.
*Itachi's (and Sasuke's but they work the same) Amaterasu: *
- Managed to burn a hole in Jiraiya's toad summoning though he could quickly seal it away
- Failed to killed Hebi Sasuke due to Oral Rebirth (A variation of Kawarimi)
- Failed to kill Obito either due to Kamui or more likely Izanagi
- Failed to defeat Killer B due to his own unique tentacle variation of Kawarimi
- Failed to one-shot someone as weak as Karin (or inflict any serious burns on her, she was unconscious due to being hit by the tentacle) after hitting her due to how slowly it burns meaning if Jiraiya did get hit he has more than enough time to seal it away and keep fighting
- Failed to hit V2 A with Shunshin and hit a fodder Samurai behind him with armor on
- Kankuro and Temari manage to stop it by simply removing his armor
- Failed to burn through Gaara's chakra-infused sand
- Was not only shown to have a charge time needed before it can be used, but the charge time is large enough that Nagato can sense it and warn Naruto and B, B can throw a sword at Itachi, and Nagato can deflect it before it can be used. Also, don't say that wasn't Amaterasu considering he used it right after he used the crow, which proves that he also charged up Amaterasu too.
- Failed against Nagato though he used the Deva Path, and logically could use Preta to absorb it
- Failed to stick to Minato even after he made direct contact with it
- Was apparently dealt with by Tobirama in the past considering he knows about it and Enton and Madara and Izuna were the firsts to awaken MS, so one of them must've had it. Though we don't know how he dealt with it so I won't dive that much further into this.
- Failed against every god tier, but they're god tiers, so of course it failed.
- Failed against a base and blind Madara, though he absorbed it via unknown means and just threw his clothes that had it on them off
- Failed against exhausted and weakened base Naruto with his V1 cloak.

*Jiraiya's Yomi Numa: *
- While it does have far less uses throughout the series, it only needs the clap of the hands to be executed and instantly sunk a giant snake so large that Jiraiya and Orochimaru looked like ants compared to it. Jiraiya did this while in Part 1, in base, and drugged.... so imagine what Sage Mode Jiraiya, in Part 2 (where even Kakashi and basic fodder can use sourceless Suiton that was considered Kage-level in Part 1), and at full strength can do....
- Sunk the Human Path with it being unable to react, though it can react to a FRS thrown by SM Naruto, but only got hit due to sacrificing itself to save the Animal Path (considering the other two leaped away just fine).

*Itachi's Tsukuyomi: *
- Only ever landed against Kakashi who purposely used Sharingan and looked at Itachi in order to counter it, and had enough time to warn Kurenai and Asuma to close their eyes before it could even be executed.
- Had to use the assistance of a Kage Bunshin to land it on Hebi Sasuke.

*Jiraiya's Yatai Kuzushi:*
- Apparently requires no hand seals while being effective at all ranges, and instantly crushed a giant snake out of thin air
- Instantly crushed a bunch of White Zetsu
- But most impressively, instantly crushed a complete Kurama with him being unable to do anything. Gyuki's reflexes are great enough to react to an Amaterasu fired by Sasuke, as seen when he blocked it with his tentacle. Whilst Yang Kurama is much stronger and can by default do the same, and his own shown reflexes and speed in general is great enough to overwhelm and keep up with SM Naruto even when he's in his own mindscape and can do things he would normally be unable to (such as supplex Kurama, fly, make a hundred Kage Bunshins all with Cho Odama Rasengan, ect), and only lost due to Kushina's interference. Therefore, there is next to no one who is reacting to this (especially physically).

*Conclusion: *I don't see where people get this ridiculous idea that Amaterasu is this truly devastating and game-changing one-shot jutsu that cannot be countered by any decent high-tier Kage level character let alone fucking Jiraiya considering it has been consistently trashed throughout the whole Manga. The only true one-shot abilities he has are Tsukuyomi, which must also be charged and requires eye contact, and the Totsuka Blade which has only ever hit two stationary targets; one who was gigantic, in a weakened state, and had no knowledge, and the other who was immobile, blinded, and had their sensing turned off. There's also the fact that for Itachi to use all of these jutsu he needs to use up a lot of chakra, reduce his eyesight, and reduce his own lifespan. So by actual portrayal and functionality Jiraiya's jutsus are superior and he can deal with anything Itachi uses against him, whilst Itachi cannot.

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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Itachi only needs to jump or use shunshin towards Jiraiya (he jumped pretty high up and quite far to get to Nagato's bird)


That is a good feat. I'm not sure about the distance but the height was considerable. I'd need to go re-read the chapter. Distance is what matters the most in this scenario.





> Since Jiraiya won't be turning the areas he's standing on into swamps as well (any attacks Jiraiya tries to stop Itachi with can be blocked by Susano/or dodged).


That's a pretty bold statement. I wouldn't rule out Sage Mode Jiraiya bypassing Susanoo using Genjutsu. 





> If Jiraiya is too far he can jump up and use katon to harden the swamp. Additionally, Jiraiya adding toad Oil into the mix as a counter to Itachi's Katon sounds too good to be true considering that's something granted by sharingan precog/hand seal reading.


Once Jiraiya sees the fire. He's able to launch the toad oil quick enough that it will still be affected. Also it's not as if he lacks his own Katon.





> That's something Itachi should be able to do with his sharingan, not Jiraiya without one. Even if Jiraiya managed to luckily pull it off, Itachi can just land with a rib-cage Susano safely.


 He'd still sink into it lol.


> Katon > Doton Mud because Fire/heat hardens mud......That's common sense really. I am pretty sure we even saw it during the whole SA vs Juubi combo attack.


I mean, this might be a bit of a stretch but what's stopping Jiraiya from continuing the flow of chakra into Yomi Numa. It'd just be a battle of chakra from there right??





> You absolutely cannot compare Sand Tsunami to Yomi Numa.....Yomi Numa only happens at the bottom, whereas Sand Tsunami comes at you like a huge wave of sand so simply jumping isn't going to cut it. There's a huge difference.


My point was Sharingan Precog not being relevant due to AOE. That's all. I guess Sand Tsunami is a bit of a stretch but you get my point.





> Itachi's "back-up"





> had to be saved twice, and only used 1 jutsu and that was only because Itachi ordered it. The CT could have been destroyed SOLO if it was done before the debris started collecting (meaning no wasting time explaining the situation to Naruto/Bee). Multiple Yasaka's can be thrown, no reason why it has to be 1 Yasaka vs CT.


 I'm gonna need Yasaka Magatama feats that suggest it can destroy CT core. Also feats of Itachi using it continuously. You should also realize a very small amount of "debris" was covering CT core. Itachi didn't immediately know what to do. He gathered info. He asked Naruto why he was still alive. Itachi did analyze the situation to come up with a counter but I don't believe that if he were alone, it'd have actually been more effective because that's what you're suggesting.





> If Jiraiya forms the seal to use Yomi Numa, Itachi will naturally see the Doton hand seals and know that an earth based attack will be coming......Sharingan precog.


There are hundreds of earth based attacks. Like I said though even if he knew it was Yomi Numa, the AOE is too large for him to escape. Running/Jumping/Katon considered.





> And one last thing, the Databook info on Yomi Numa specifically stated that the technique is useful against large numbers or large summons - It sounds as if Kishi is trying to suggest that this technique is not as useful against single elite shinobi's like you're trying to suggest.


 It's also useful if someone who has no counter isn't it ? ? ? ? It's also been used on single opponents. Once in the manga three times in the anime.

An idea I recently came up with. Kekkei Gama Hyourou could hide inside Yomi Numa. Inside there Jiraiya could prep Sage Mode and keep Itachi at a safe distance.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 17, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> That is a good feat. I'm not sure about the distance but the height was considerable. I'd need to go re-read the chapter. Distance is what matters the most in this scenario.That's a pretty bold statement.* I wouldn't rule out Sage Mode Jiraiya bypassing Susanoo using Genjutsu. Once Jiraiya sees the fire. He's able to launch the toad oil quick enough that it will still be affected. Also it's not as if he lacks his own Katon. He'd still sink into it lol.*
> I mean, this might be a bit of a stretch but what's stopping Jiraiya from continuing the flow of chakra into Yomi Numa. It'd just be a battle of chakra from there right??My point was Sharingan Precog not being relevant due to AOE. That's all. I guess Sand Tsunami is a bit of a stretch but you get my point. I'm gonna need Yasaka Magatama feats that suggest it can destroy CT core. Also feats of Itachi using it continuously. You should also realize a very small amount of "debris" was covering CT core. Itachi didn't immediately know what to do. He gathered info. He asked Naruto why he was still alive. Itachi did analyze the situation to come up with a counter but I don't believe that if he were alone, it'd have actually been more effective because that's what you're suggesting.There are hundreds of earth based attacks. Like I said though even if he knew it was Yomi Numa, the AOE is too large for him to escape. Running/Jumping/Katon considered. It's also useful if someone who has no counter isn't it ? ? ? ? It's also been used on single opponents. Once in the manga three times in the anime.
> 
> An idea I recently came up with. Kekkei Gama Hyourou could hide inside Yomi Numa. Inside there Jiraiya could prep Sage Mode and keep Itachi at a safe distance.




Why are you talking about SM Jiraiya instead of giving reasons how base Jiraiya with no hands going to fight Itachi long enough to enter SM?

You've skipped pretty much skipped the first half of the battle.

The first bold....How is this relevant to Yomi Numa? The sound genjutsu from Ma & Pa takes considerable amounts of time (for convincing Ma and to perform the song itself) From my interpretation, it seems as if you're trying to say Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa on himself as well, then jumps up and use Katon just like Itachi?


Yasaka Magatama are quite strong in itself (with 1 being able to pierce Gaara's strongest defense and Onoki's). Itachi's combined Yasaka Magatama should be able to replicate the same feat quite easily. The burden of proof does not lie on Yasaka being powerful enough, it lies on CT Core being durable enough to withstand it or not. Just because it holds a bunch of rocks together does not mean it's durable.

And I don't see why Itachi cannot simply throw Yasaka one after another. From the looks of it, it doesn't seem like it requires any charge time. It's like me asking for proof that Naruto can form Rasengan again right after throwing the first one.

Itachi analyzed the situation, you are correct on that part. But he didn't ask Naruto because he wanted to know, he asked to prove a point and to teach Naruto. Naruto was saying if you're caught in it you're dead, and Itachi asks "then why are you alive?". After Naruto finished his talk, then Itachi explains his strategy. That's like cracking a joke during mid-crisis, signifying that he wasn't worried at all.

If Itachi was alone in that situation, he would've been attacking the core much sooner, since he wouldn't be wasting his time listening to Naruto, teaching him and explaining the strategy.

So you're still trying to say Yomi Numa solo despite me providing various counter strategies? Cool. And you haven't really "considered" jumping/Katon at all really. You've simply decided to ignore them since it doesn't suit your argument.

The only time the swamp was useful against a singular opponent is when it was used against a blind path with no useful abilities apart from summons who was also avoiding another technique. Sounds like a sketchy argument to me to be fair.

Anime fillers hardly counts.




P.s. AOE is hardly relevant when all Itachi needs to do is harden the floor beneath himself. Or he can jump out of range...Unless you can prove that Jiraiya will be wasting his chakra on a huge swamp to capture 1 human. 


Actually...Why would Jiraiya even use a big swamp to begin with? It's completely out of his character to do so. Jiraiya has only ever used large swamps against large fodder snakes, and only a human sized (small one) for a human, despite being his SM. 

Can you give me any reason why Jiraiya would use a big one on a person? And right off the bat too...? 

How will Jiraiya avoid Amateratsu when he doesn't know it's coming or where it's coming from? How does Jiraiya fight effectively without use of his arms while trying to enter SM? All while avoiding eye contact, Amateratsu, clone feints and Susano grabs and vastly superior tactics and intelligence?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 18, 2016)

@Sapherosth Ill be on tomorrow (I live in the Pacific Time Zone). Just to so its cleared up right now though.

The only Sage Mode Jutsu I brought up was Jiraiyas Genjutsu. I'll explain Jiraiyas process of getting into Sage Mode in my next message as I have a few ideas. What makes you think Jiraiya is trapping himself inside Yomi Numa? My explanation was: If JIRAIYA used Yomi Numa and Itachi jumped up to use Katon, once Jiraiya sees the Katon he could follow up with Toad Oil which would light Yomi Numa on fire, in the event that Itachi didn't use Katon because he saw the toad oil, Jiraiya could simply add his own Katon, tha wouldn't require jumping. I don't know how you interpreted that as Jiraiya traps himself in Yomi Numa. Also I don't count anime fillers though I felt I should at least mention it.

Edit: Read @Isaiah13000 post. It's very good imo.


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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Sapherosth Ill be on tomorrow (I live in the Pacific Time Zone). Just to so its cleared up right now though.
> 
> The only Sage Mode Jutsu I brought up was Jiraiyas Genjutsu. I'll explain Jiraiyas process of getting into Sage Mode in my next message as I have a few ideas. What makes you think Jiraiya is trapping himself inside Yomi Numa? My explanation was: If JIRAIYA used Yomi Numa and Itachi jumped up to use Katon, once Jiraiya sees the Katon he could follow up with Toad Oil which would light Yomi Numa on fire, in the event that Itachi didn't use Katon because he saw the toad oil, Jiraiya could simply add his own Katon, tha wouldn't require jumping. I don't know how you interpreted that as Jiraiya traps himself in Yomi Numa. Also I don't count anime fillers though I felt I should at least mention it.
> 
> Edit: Read @Isaiah13000 post. It's very good imo.



If Jiraiya does what you say he does, Itachi will just land on a hardened swamp full of flames with his Ribcage Susano. What problem does this pose exactly?


Isaiah13000's post is heavily bias and contradictory. 


For example :

- Failed to killed Hebi Sasuke due to Oral Rebirth (A variation of Kawarimi)   - *He wasn't trying to kill*
- Failed to kill Obito either due to Kamui or more likely Izanagi - *Izanagi and Kamui is something Jiraiya has no access to. Any of Jiraiya's tech's would have failed equally.*

- Failed to defeat Killer B due to his own unique tentacle variation of Kawarimi - W*asn't aiming to kill and only managed to escape because Sasuke had to cut the tentacle. He was also acknowledged to be one of the strongest Killer Bee has fought. *

- Failed to hit V2 A with Shunshin and hit a fodder Samurai behind him with armor on -   Well no shit, V2 A with *VASTLY SUPERIOR SPEED THAN JIRAIYA WITH INTEL on Amateratsu is going to dodge it. *Jiraiya has neither speed nor intel here.


I can list the amounts of time Jiraiya's jutsu's failed and just easily say it won't work on Itachi, simply because it failed on another character. Then I can list the number of times that Itachi's techs were effective and say it will work on Jiraiya.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> If Jiraiya does what you say he does, Itachi will just land on a hardened swamp full of flames with his Ribcage Susano. What problem does this pose exactly? Isaiah13000's post is heavily bias and contradictory.
> For example :
> 
> - Failed to killed Hebi Sasuke due to Oral Rebirth (A variation of Kawarimi)   - *He wasn't trying to kill*
> ...


 Seems like you're missing the entirety of his post. He wasn't comparing those instances to Jiraiyas capabilities, he was showing Amaterasus history of fail. Read this thread and you an see people have already countered the Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi argument whereas Jiraiyas Yomi Numa + Yatai Kuzushi has only been countered with nothing more than: Itachi side-steps it or sets himself on fire.



> *Conclusion: *I don't see where people get this ridiculous idea that Amaterasu is this truly devastating and game-changing one-shot jutsu that cannot be countered by any decent high-tier Kage level character let alone fucking Jiraiya considering it has been consistently trashed throughout the whole Manga. The only true one-shot abilities he has are Tsukuyomi, which must also be charged and requires eye contact, and the Totsuka Blade which has only ever hit two stationary targets; one who was gigantic, in a weakened state, and had no knowledge, and the other who was immobile, blinded, and had their sensing turned off. There's also the fact that for Itachi to use all of these jutsu he needs to use up a lot of chakra, reduce his eyesight, and reduce his own lifespan. So by actual portrayal and functionality Jiraiya's jutsus are superior and he can deal with anything Itachi uses against him, whilst Itachi cannot.

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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Seems like you're missing the entirety of his post. He wasn't comparing those instances to Jiraiyas capabilities, he was showing Amaterasus history of fail. Read this thread and you an see people have already countered the Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi argument whereas Jiraiyas Yomi Numa + Yatai Kuzushi has only been countered with nothing more than: Itachi side-steps it or sets himself on fire.



I haven't missed anything. 

Amateratsu's history of fail doesn't mean anything if Jiraiya doesn't have a counter to it. Other users who managed to survive it either had prior intel and/or a specific technique which allowed them to (i.e. Izanagi, V2 speed, Oral Rebirth, God Tier, Perfect Jin). Jiraiya has neither specific technique to counter it OR the prior intel on Amateratsu.

It's like me saying Rasengan/Rasenshuriken/Odama Rasengan failed so many times in the manga, therefore it's going to fail against Jiraiya.

Your only counter against Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi is that "Amateratsu has failed so many times" and "Tsukuyomi requires eye contact and concentration".

You haven't countered anything.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I haven't missed anything.





> Amateratsu's history of fail doesn't mean anything if Jiraiya doesn't have a counter to it. Other users who managed to survive it either had prior intel and/or a specific technique which allowed them to (i.e. Izanagi, V2 speed, Oral Rebirth, God Tier, Perfect Jin). Jiraiya has neither specific technique to counter it OR the prior intel on Amateratsu.


 He's seen Amaterasu. He may not know that it's an instant spawning Jutsu but you know how he could figure that out??? Gamaguchi Shibari. If he uses Gamaguchi Shibari Itachi will be forced to use Amaterasu to escape which will show Jiraiya how it's used. iirc he also has sensing barrier, so if Amaterasu starts spawning, Jiraiya will know and be able to dodge it. Jiraiya could also use Hari Jizo the same way Sasuke used Oral rebirth in the sense that once it starts spawning, he could use Hari Jizo before it catches him and once it does he simply cuts it off. Jiraiya could also open his battle using a summon like Gama..anyone who will end up eating Ama sooner or later. There is literally a ton of ways for Jiraiya to figure out Amaterasu, especially considering he's see the Jutsu once before.



> It's like me saying Rasengan/Rasenshuriken/Odama Rasengan failed so many times in the manga, therefore it's going to fail against Jiraiya.


That isn't our argument though. 



> Your only counter against Amateratsu and Tsukuyomi is that "Amateratsu has failed so many times" and "Tsukuyomi requires eye contact and concentration". You haven't countered anything.


 That is not Jiraiyas counter. Nobody here believes "If a Jutsu fails this many times it won't effect this person". 

Im getting off NF right now but sheesh.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Isaiah13000's post is heavily bias and contradictory.


 If what I said is bias and contradictory, then there is no way to possibly describe the majority of your Itachi-related posts.




> For example :
> 
> - Failed to killed Hebi Sasuke due to Oral Rebirth (A variation of Kawarimi) - *He wasn't trying to kill*
> - Failed to kill Obito either due to Kamui or more likely Izanagi - *Izanagi and Kamui is something Jiraiya has no access to. Any of Jiraiya's tech's would have failed equally. *


 The first bold doesn't matter, how does him not trying to kill him affect how his Amaterasu functions? As for the second bold, Jiraiya however has other means of countering it such as using Hari Jizo, Kebari Senbon, sensory barrier, ect.



> - Failed to defeat Killer B due to his own unique tentacle variation of Kawarimi - W*asn't aiming to kill and only managed to escape because Sasuke had to cut the tentacle. He was also acknowledged to be one of the strongest Killer Bee has fought. *


 Doesn't matter, as that does not affect how his Amaterasu works and he could simply cut his own tentacle to replicate the same thing.



> - Failed to hit V2 A with Shunshin and hit a fodder Samurai behind him with armor on - Well no shit, V2 A with *VASTLY SUPERIOR SPEED THAN JIRAIYA WITH INTEL on Amateratsu is going to dodge it. *Jiraiya has neither speed nor intel here.


 Ma and Pa are his intel once they're summoned, and Itachi is not using any of his MS abilities for a while.




> I can list the amounts of time Jiraiya's jutsu's failed and just easily say it won't work on Itachi, simply because it failed on another character. Then I can list the number of times that Itachi's techs were effective and say it will work on Jiraiya.


 No you really can't, because what my post proved was that there is enough time to mount an effective defense and/or offense against Amaterasu. You can exclude any specific abilities that anyone on my list had and still mostly acquire the same result for many Kage-levels, due to it's charge time you can easily mount an offense and/or defense in a number of ways against Itachi before it can be used and even after it has been used (as the flames must devour any Jutsu you might've fired before they can reach you yourself, allowing you to slow them down for more time to do something else), if you get hit as long as it didn't hit your actual skin you can just remove the clothing that has it on, his LoS can be blocked, ect.

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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Pain using Animal Realm is >> the shit Itachi starts matches w/ that's why people don't seem willing to acknowledge.



Thats the most ridiculous and outlandish thing I've read in a long while.

Itachi is uncomparably faster, smarter, more precise and versatile than Animal realm in every imaginable way possbile. Jiraiya did nothing against Animal realm. He stood on top of Gamaken, and Gamaken jumped around. For a good minute or two. Itachi can kill Jiraiya in that defenseless state probably like 45 times during that duration.

Itachi was going casually in and out of B and Naruto's melee range without using anything but taijutsu, he pseudo blitzed B and flanked him. Jiraiya can't deal with that speed, let alone when he is completely defenseless other than Gamaken's mobility.

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## Hardcore (Jul 18, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Location: Pain vs Jiraiya
> Restrictions: Jiraiya starts in base.
> Mindset: IC, meaning if they didn't do anything like it in the manga, it can't be used as an argument.
> Distance: 10 Meters
> Knowledge: Manga



that's not the precise meaning of IC m8

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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> It's chakra infused MUD. It's a Doton, not a Suiton. Flowing like liquid doesn't change its nature nor does it suggest the fact Itachi could walk on it.


Mud contains water and flows like a liquid. It's nature remains the same, but that still doesn't mean it can't be walked on.


HandfullofNaruto said:


> the mechanics of trapping it's opponent work very differently, chakra infused mud will literally grabs and sinks you. "the enemy is sunk deep underground" they don't just naturally sink with gravity it's a force.


The jutsu "ensnares" or traps the enemy as it is stated in the databook prior to being able to sink them. There is nothing stated about Yomi Numa "grabbing" as you claim in the databook or manga. Later on it even says, "It's impossible to recover one's strength and escape *from there*." Does this not clearly imply that the most dangerous part of the jutsu is after the opponent is ensnared, not through grabbing, but through a mechanic similar to Izumo's jutsu? If someone is walking on it, tell me how will they be ensnared in the first place?


HandfullofNaruto said:


> _Are you joking? Look how small Jiraiya and Orochimaru are. Not spanning the complete length of that snake? As if Itachi is larger or could escape that distance lol. Ya it didn't span the length, you know why? Jiraiya was drugged._


You claimed it spanned the entire battlefield, which was incorrect. Also, you have brought forth no speed feats for Yomi Numa that support that Itachi can't run away. I've already shown you a scan of Itachi casually jumping onto a flying boss summon. If he can cross that distance that easily, why couldn't he dodge Yomi Numa?


HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yes. This Jutsu requires a single hand sign and activates instantly. It takes one panel for that entire snake to be submerged. A regular human sized target with Itachis feats can't escape it.


Show me where Jiraiya's hand seal speed is hyped up to be anywhere near Itachi's. Show me the speed feats of that snake that show its faster than Itachi. And by the way, it's two hand seals. But since when do # of hand seals make a jutsu faster? The initiation is faster but the jutsu itself? Initiation speed won't even help much because Itachi will too easily read through Jiraiya's hand seals.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2016)

Jiraiya's performance against a foe significantly stronger than the one he's facing now has no real bearing on how this fight will turn out. If anything it gives us an idea of how Jiraiya could deal with situations, though you need to be mindful that Pain put Jiraiya in a corner that Itachi probably wouldn't be able to. Unless Itachi has a way to totally nullify Taijutsu (having eyes on all angles) and Ninjutsu (all around, not just what the shield covers... which is dependent on him using that form of Susanoo from the get go)... then you can't be saying Itachi will destroy Jiraiya like Pain did.

Now knowledge is a big part of things here. If we're going to assume Itachi will use Susanoo from the start, why not assume Jiraiya will summon the Ni Dai Sennin from the start? I mentioned knowledge because it is extremely plausible to suggest that the two sage toads will have knowledge on every significant jutsu Itachi has (the MS jutsu). To give you perspective, Fukasaku was able to come up with a plan to deal with the limited powers used on Jiraiya... since there's more info around on the MS, it is feasible he'd be able to come up with a more complete plan on how to tackle the MS.

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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> To give you perspective, Fukasaku was able to come up with a plan to deal with the limited powers used on Jiraiya...


To give you a perspective, Itachi did that with a bunch of kunai.



> since there's more info around on the MS, it is feasible he'd be able to come up with a more complete plan on how to tackle the MS.



If he can witness Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'O and survive, then yes he could. But then, statistically it is possible for a monkey to write a shakespeare novel by randomly hitting the right combination of letters on a keyboard.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> To give you a perspective, Itachi did that with a bunch of kunai.



Yes, on an opponent not concerned about him after he got turned to dust by said opponent. In this scenario, Itachi has to deal with a strong foe whose actually concerned about fighting him.



> If he can witness Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'O and survive, then yes he could. But then, statistically it is possible for a monkey to write a shakespeare novel by randomly hitting the right combination of letters on a keyboard.



Databooks and manga themselves show that those jutsu have a reputation. Zetsu spoke of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as if they were famous already, Sasuke got all his MS info from the tablet and Oonoki knew about Susanoo along with Zetsu (post retcon; he saw Madara vs Hashirama). It is plausible to say that Fukasaku would at least know about those jutsu.

However I'm assuming that you believe no matter what, Jiraiya stands no chance. So surely, as far as your stance is concerned, it doesn't matter if Fukasaku has knowledge or not.

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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 18, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, on an opponent not concerned about him after he got turned to dust by said opponent.


Fanfiction.


> In this scenario, Itachi has to deal with a strong foe whose actually concerned about fighting him.


Strong foe is an arbitrary term, you pretty much said nothing valuable at this point.




> Databooks and manga themselves show that those jutsu have a reputation. Zetsu spoke of Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as if they were famous already, Sasuke got all his MS info from the tablet and Oonoki knew about Susanoo along with Zetsu (post retcon; he saw Madara vs Hashirama). It is plausible to say that Fukasaku would at least know about those jutsu.


Jiraiya had no idea about what those said jutsu were.
Kakashi had 0 knowledge about the jutsu despite being familiar with the sharingan himself.
Sasuke had no idea what Susano'O was after reading the tablet, neither did Zetsu.
There is absolutely no evidence that Fukasaku has any exclusive knowledge regarding Itachi's MS(considering all MS has exclusive jutsu to themselves).



> However I'm assuming that you believe no matter what, Jiraiya stands no chance. So surely, as far as your stance is concerned, it doesn't matter if Fukasaku has knowledge or not.


Pretty much.
Fukasaku doesn't have the tools to counter Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi or Susano'O unless he is given exclusive knowledge and preperation, and even then, I'll go ahead and assume he has 0 experience fighting against MS so what works on paper doesn't necessarily work in practice. Especially considering he is up against an equally knowledgeable and a much smarter fighter.

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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fanfiction.
> 
> Strong foe is an arbitrary term, you pretty much said nothing valuable at this point.
> 
> ...




The reason Black zetsu "didn't know" about Susano was most likely due to plot. If B Zetsu knew what Susano was, it would immediately give the plot away.

Ma & Pa knowing anything about MS techniques is laughable. Them forming a strategy before Itachi can form his is also laughable.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 18, 2016)

There is no proof that Black Zetsu did not know about Susanoo. Chapter 392, Page 3 in NORMAL font it says, "Eh...uh...what is that?" White Zetsu's surprised face also confirms this. Throughout the whole fight, Black Zetsu's dialogue is in a different font than what is used for White Zetsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Fanfiction.



This coming from the guy who thinks Jiraiya gets stomped....



> Jiraiya had no idea about what those said jutsu were.
> Kakashi had 0 knowledge about the jutsu despite being familiar with the sharingan himself.
> Sasuke had no idea what Susano'O was after reading the tablet, neither did Zetsu.
> There is absolutely no evidence that Fukasaku has any exclusive knowledge regarding Itachi's MS(considering all MS has exclusive jutsu to themselves).



Fukasaku knew, considering older characters seem aware of MS jutsu it isn't a stretch. Sasuke probably didn't know about Susanoo because his Sharingan couldn't read that far.
Zetsu saw Madara fight Hashirama and he observed Madara: that automatically says he knows what Susanoo is. You can stop holding onto that retcon.

If the MS jutsu vary as much as you claim they do, then Madara would have known about Kamui and Zetsu wouldn't have spoken about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as if they were well known.



> Pretty much.



Then it shouldn't bother you that Jiraiya's side may have some knowledge, right?



> Fukasaku doesn't have the tools to counter Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi or Susano'O unless he is given exclusive knowledge and preperation, and even then, I'll go ahead and assume he has 0 experience fighting against MS so what works on paper doesn't necessarily work in practice. Especially considering he is up against an equally knowledgeable and a much smarter fighter.



Direct counters to MS? Nah, that's something for Junchuriki and Rinnegan users.

Jiraiya and the Sages could just approach the battle in a way that accounts for each jutsu. As we saw, Jiraiya isn't past temporarily retreating in order to come up with a game plan. Considering Itachi has no chakra sensing talent, it will be a while before he finds Jiraiya... or if Jiraiya enacts a similar strategy to keep Itachi busy while he uses the toad song.

There's no need for MS fighting experience, they just have to know about the jutsu and apply common sense that ocular powers rely on the user's vision except Susanoo e.g. Tsukuyomi will never work unless Itachi looks into Jiraiya's eyes or Amaterasu will never land if Itachi can't actually see his target.

Itachi knows about Sage Mode and that Jiraiya uses toads. There's nothing else about Jiraiya's skills that are famous. The knowledge on Itachi is more valuable as his main cards are really the MS.

My main question to you is the knowledge question: if it doesn't matter why try to contest it... unless knowledge will give Jiraiya a possible edge?

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## Sapherosth (Jul 18, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> There is no proof that Black Zetsu did not know about Susanoo. Chapter 392, Page 3 in NORMAL font it says, "Eh...uh...what is that?" White Zetsu's surprised face also confirms this. Throughout the whole fight, Black Zetsu's dialogue is in a different font than what is used for White Zetsu.




Zetsu was there when mads v hashirama.....it's retarded to say he doesnt know what susano is. He's been stalking the Uchiha and Indra incarnation for centuries lmao. 

If Black zetsu says "Oh, that's Susano, I've seen it before", we would all be like how the fk did he see Susano when he was born from Madara's will? 

It was only due to plot. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 18, 2016)

Even if it doesn't look impressive, all of Jiraiya's long range techniques are superior to Itachi's, and as I said before with summons included his jutsu can span a vast amount of space, forcing Itachi to use Susanoo.

I forgot about the many potential counters to Amaterasu Jiraiya has. Needle Jizo, Hari Jizo, Gamaguchi Shibari, and Sensing barriers can all be used to gather intelligence on Amaterasu and ways to evade it (like HandfullofNaruto mentioned). Plus staying long range also helps to evade it.

If Jiraiya stays long range then his Susanoo isn't catching his summons. If he uses Yomi Numa that would restrict Susanoo's movements. If he tries to jump up then that's fine, Jiraiya can simply fire oil or fire at him. Furthermore Itachi's Fire Style isn't solidifying an entire swamp that can cover the entire battlefield. Genjutsu can be broken out by partner method.

Danzo didn't respawn behind the Susanoo though. He used Baku as a diversion, and ran all the way behind it. Sage Mode Jiraiya with summons is much faster, and with enhanced reflexes he can easily get behind it.

Jiraiya managed to bypass the Animal path, multiple beast summons and their shared vision, and still managed to enter Sage Mode while keeping his hands still. They weren't all attacking recklessly. Itachi can't spam his techniques to even come close to what the Animal Path did, and Jiraiya can still use jutsu and gather natural energy simultaneously so he'll definitely manage to enter Sage Mode.

I wouldn't say Itachi>Jiraiya, Ma and Pa because the 3 of them did figure out how the Pain's worked which is rather impressive. Nagato's statement that Jiraiya could've taken him out if he had intel also adds to my points.

Throughout the battle Itachi's vision would be fading and his reflexes won't be as good, as seen when Sasuke's shuriken managed to hit him. Trying to use Tsukyomi, Amaterasu or Susanoo would just add to his eye strain and further accelerate his deteriorating eyesight, and there's no time to even think about tiredness against Jiraiya.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 18, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> @Isaiah13000
> Do you have anything productive to add? A counter to my argument or an answer to one of my questions perhaps?


 I've already added many productive comments, and what question specifically?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 18, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Even if it doesn't look impressive, all of Jiraiya's long range techniques are superior to Itachi's, and as I said before with summons included his jutsu can span a vast amount of space, forcing Itachi to use Susanoo.


Once again, he is not using summons after his first one gets hit by Amaterasu. It's not in his character to risk using summons like that. He isn't like Pain.


Monty Burns said:


> I forgot about the many potential counters to Amaterasu Jiraiya has. Needle Jizo, Hari Jizo


He's countering Amaterasu with his hair? The same Amaterasu that burnt through the fire resisting stomach of the Fire Toad in no time will be countered by Jiraiya's *hair*? How is this?


Monty Burns said:


> Gamaguchi Shibari, and Sensing barriers can all be used to gather intelligence on Amaterasu and ways to evade it


Tell me, why will he use a Summoning jutsu (Gamaguchi Shibari), putting his summon in risk when he already has seen the black fire and what little of it can do the the stomach of the Fire Toad? Are we talking about Pain or Jiraiya? And how is sensing barrier gathering him information on Amaterasu? Chapter 375, Page 5 Pain says (about Jiraiya's sensing jutsu): "That's the jutsu which detects any slight movement of the opponent." "Detecting movement" gives him information on Amaterasu? How is this?


Monty Burns said:


> If Jiraiya stays long range then his Susanoo isn't catching his summons.


Still, no one has answered me: After Jiraiya's first summon goes down to Amaterasu, why is Jiraiya going to keep risking the lives of his summons? Is this Pain we are talking about?


Monty Burns said:


> If he uses Yomi Numa that would restrict Susanoo's movements.


And still no one has proven to me that Itachi can't walk on Yomi Numa.


Monty Burns said:


> Genjutsu can be broken out by partner method.


Who is this partner might I ask?


Monty Burns said:


> Danzo didn't respawn behind the Susanoo though. He used Baku as a diversion, and ran all the way behind it. Sage Mode Jiraiya with summons is much faster, and with enhanced reflexes he can easily get behind it.


Itachi won't notice Jiraiya running AROUND HIM when he physically reacted to Bee's blindside attack while fighting Naruto? Show me Jiraiya's speed feats that show he can do this?


Monty Burns said:


> Jiraiya managed to bypass the Animal path, multiple beast summons and their shared vision, and still managed to enter Sage Mode while keeping his hands still.


Because he relied on his own Summons. Here he doesn't have that luxury.


Monty Burns said:


> Nagato's statement that Jiraiya could've taken him out if he had intel also adds to my points.


He could have taken out Restricted Paths. NOT Nagato or unrestricted Paths. That is what that statement means.


Monty Burns said:


> Throughout the battle Itachi's vision would be fading and his reflexes won't be as good, as seen when Sasuke's shuriken managed to hit him.


This battle isn't between Sick Itachi and Jiraiya. This is healthy, prime Itachi. Also, your point about Sasuke's shuriken, Chapter 389 Page 8 Black Zetsu says, "With his ability, he should be able to avoid the attack." Chapter 394 Page 6 Black Zetsu also says: "That definitely wasn't Itachi's true power... His movements are completely different." Bringing a feat Sasuke was able to do against Sick, blind Itachi doesn't mean too much as you can see. 


Monty Burns said:


> Trying to use Tsukyomi, Amaterasu or Susanoo would just add to his eye strain and further accelerate his deteriorating eyesight, and there's no time to even think about tiredness against Jiraiya.


But Jiraiya has time to keep his hands together for minutes against Itachi?


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## Sapherosth (Jul 19, 2016)

Monty Burns said:


> Even if it doesn't look impressive, all of Jiraiya's long range techniques are superior to Itachi's, and as I said before with summons included his jutsu can span a vast amount of space, forcing Itachi to use Susanoo.
> 
> I forgot about the many potential counters to Amaterasu Jiraiya has. Needle Jizo, Hari Jizo, Gamaguchi Shibari, and Sensing barriers can all be used to gather intelligence on Amaterasu and ways to evade it (like HandfullofNaruto mentioned). Plus staying long range also helps to evade it.
> 
> ...




Those aren't really viable counters to be honest.

If you look at Danzo vs Sasuke - Danzo got hit by Amateratsu head on, quite easily at that, without being able to do anything apart from Izanagi himself out of it. Jiraiya hasn't even shown superior speed than Danzo at that point (outside of SM) and he hasn't shown the reaction/execution speed/quick thinking enough to EFFECTIVELY defend himself against an unknown attack.

When I see people say "Jiraiya will keep Itachi at bay with long range techniques and spam him until he enters SM", I always wonder - what long range techniques that he can use without hands?    Has Jiraiya ever fought long-ranged at all? Is he even a long-range fighter?   From what we see in his fight against the paths, Jiraiya is PREDOMINANTLY a CQC fighter. He likes to get close and personal, not run and poke. The only time he runs and poke is AFTER he tries EVERYTHING CQC.





> Danzo didn't respawn behind the Susanoo though. He used Baku as a diversion, and ran all the way behind it. Sage Mode Jiraiya with summons is much faster, and with enhanced reflexes he can easily get behind it.



What summon exactly? Baku restricted Susano's movements through his vacuum. If Jiraiya's toad is even remotely alone or try to flank Itachi, the toad will just get genjutsu'ed and controlled to fight against Jiraiya.





> Jiraiya managed to bypass the Animal path, multiple beast summons and their shared vision, and still managed to enter Sage Mode while keeping his hands still. They weren't all attacking recklessly. Itachi can't spam his techniques to even come close to what the Animal Path did, and Jiraiya can still use jutsu and gather natural energy simultaneously so he'll definitely manage to enter Sage Mode.



Itachi got rid of the same thing, much more effectively and quickly as well. Showed far less struggle as well.

You see, the thing is, Itachi is NOT the spammy type like the Animal path. All of his techniques have a purpose, or an end goal. It is effective and efficient. 1 clone feint and genjutsu from Itachi is much more dangerous than a large dog running at you to be honest. Look at Bee vs Itachi, Itachi vs Oro, Itachi vs Deidara, Itachi vs Naruto. These 4 people can all UNDOUBTEDLY last and handle the Animal path much longer than they would against Itachi. Or can you deny this?




> I wouldn't say Itachi>Jiraiya, Ma and Pa because the 3 of them did figure out how the Pain's worked which is rather impressive. Nagato's statement that Jiraiya could've taken him out if he had intel also adds to my points.



Why can't we say that Itachi > Jiraiya, Ma and Pa ?   You are right that they figured out the same abilities, but the length of time in which they took to figure it out is so vastly different. So much so that the gap is clear.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2016)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This coming from the guy who thinks Jiraiya gets stomped....


I don't see how this in anyway relates to what I said, but hey, coming from you I'm not surprised.

Itachi stomping Jiraiya is speculation on my part but at least I can base that on manga display.
What you previously said however is pure fanfiction as it wasn't hinted or shown. It doesn't exist.



> Fukasaku knew, considering older characters seem aware of MS jutsu it isn't a stretch.


Again, it is completely baseless. Unless you can prove to me how Fukasaku has exclusive knowledge on Itachi's MS, then you should drop this subject.



> Sasuke probably didn't know about Susanoo because his Sharingan couldn't read that far.


So you are admitting that a natural born Uchiha who has access to certain amount of top secret Uchiha information didn't know much.
And yet Fukasaku knows ?
Again, I'll ask for evidence or just concede.



> Zetsu saw Madara fight Hashirama and he observed Madara: that automatically says he knows what Susanoo is. You can stop holding onto that retcon.


I never said it wasn't a retcon. But prior to the "black zetsu is Kaguya's will" retcon, he was still one of the more knowledgeable characters in the manga whose job was to watch and record fights and he didn't know about Susano'O and he only heard about Amaterasu but never seen it. So even for a guy like him(how gets the chance to be in close proximity to Itachi and watch him fight), Itachi's skillset was for the most part a mystery.



> If the MS jutsu vary as much as you claim they do, then Madara would have known about Kamui and Zetsu wouldn't have spoken about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as if they were well known.


So far every MS user we've seen had a unique Jutsu, with the exception of Madara and Izuna, and their MS powers were never explored.
Like I said, Zetsu was one of the most knowledgeable characters in Naruto and even he never saw Amaterasu and he likely knew about those techniques because you know he was in the same organization with Itachi.




> Then it shouldn't bother you that Jiraiya's side may have some knowledge, right?


Of course it doesn't. I am just against the notion that Jiraiya can somehow counter MS with superficial knowledge. That is not happening.




> Jiraiya and the Sages could just approach the battle in a way that accounts for each jutsu. As we saw, Jiraiya isn't past temporarily retreating in order to come up with a game plan. Considering Itachi has no chakra sensing talent, it will be a while before he finds Jiraiya... or if Jiraiya enacts a similar strategy to keep Itachi busy while he uses the toad song.


How is he going to deal with black flames spawning in his face though ?
Itachi is not the weaker 3 paths of Pain. Jiraiya isn't just dissapearing and out running Itachi. Pain wasn't even taking him seriously through out the fight.


> There's no need for MS fighting experience, they just have to know about the jutsu and apply common sense that ocular powers rely on the user's vision except Susanoo e.g. Tsukuyomi will never work unless Itachi looks into Jiraiya's eyes or Amaterasu will never land if Itachi can't actually see his target.


Like I said, those work good on paper, but executing them on the field is something else because they are up against an opponent who will account in their counters. Jiraiya can't fight while avoiding eye contact because he needs to watch out Itachi's eyes to anticipate Amaterasu. Itachi's track record of landing genjtusu is 100%. Regardless of his opponents countermeasures, he was able to use genjutsu without fail. 


> Itachi knows about Sage Mode and that Jiraiya uses toads. There's nothing else about Jiraiya's skills that are famous. The knowledge on Itachi is more valuable as his main cards are really the MS.


I agree, Jiraiya's arsenal is pretty straightforward, you don't need knowledge to deal with it, with the exception of frog song perhaps.



> My main question to you is the knowledge question: if it doesn't matter why try to contest it... unless knowledge will give Jiraiya a possible edge?



I do think knowledge increases Jiraiya's chances of survival but I don't think it gives him an edge against Itachi because Itachi is just outright stronger and Susano'O and Amaterasu can't be dealt with just knowledge, you need a specific skillset to deal with those.
There is nothing in Jiraiya's arsenal that allows him to counter any of his Itachi's jutsu directly. For example Sage Kabuto directly counters Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu due to his unqiue skillset.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Those aren't really viable counters to be honest.
> 
> If you look at Danzo vs Sasuke - Danzo got hit by Amateratsu head on, quite easily at that, without being able to do anything apart from Izanagi himself out of it. Jiraiya hasn't even shown superior speed than Danzo at that point (outside of SM) and he hasn't shown the reaction/execution speed/quick thinking enough to EFFECTIVELY defend himself against an unknown attack.
> 
> ...



Danzo was in mid air when he took on Amaterasu (hardly any ground to react), and Sasuke was quite close to him when he activated it. Furthermore Sasuke was their infusing chakra in his eye for a good several seconds. Jiraiya has jutsu to attack and defend in that window. Jiraiya can find out how Amaterasu is used if he uses Gamaguchi Shibari or using a reverse summoning technique; Itachi tries to escape using Amaterasu, and Jiraiya can observe how it's used. Sensing barriers can be used to locate where Itachi is at all times, and weather if he's infusing chakra to launch a jutsu.

Jiraiya incinerated the Animal paths summons using a Fire Style technique while keeping his hands still. He also had a few exchanges with Konan and used Fire Style techniques and Oil without weaving hand signs. Ranshishigami is another long range jutsu he can use to restrict Susanoo's movements or attack Itachi with. Kebari Senbon his fastest attack that can only be countered, not dodged, can be used without handsigns. Jiraiya is a specialist with long range jutsu and activating some of them without weaving handsigns is dangerous, as Itachi's sharingan won't be able to anticipate what jutsu's about to be launched.

What's stopping Jiraiya from using a clone along with his summons? With Susanoo restricted from moving via Yomi Numa, Jiraiya can easily get behind him using Sage Mode. By turning some of his limbs into a toads limbs he surely has the speed, and reflexes to do that.

Itachi used the MS 3 times in 1 go and he used a large amount of chakra as he engulfed the entire summon in flames. This was done when he was an Edo. Itachi alive and healthy cannot use his MS like that; he doesn't have that much chakra to begin with, plus his eye strain due to using his MS in the first place.

Itachi fought Nagato not Pain. Who knows how long Itachi would take to figure out Pain's techniques.

If Jiraiya uses Frog Song then it's over. If he managed to use Gamahyoro while fighting 6 Pain's, then that would certainly work on Itachi.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't see how this in anyway relates to what I said, but hey, coming from you I'm not surprised.



You're calling fanfic while you think one guy gets stomped easily.



> Itachi stomping Jiraiya is speculation on my part but at least I can base that on manga display.
> What you previously said however is pure fanfiction as it wasn't hinted or shown. It doesn't exist.



Go by supposed manga display while ignoring comments made?



> Again, it is completely baseless. Unless you can prove to me how Fukasaku has exclusive knowledge on Itachi's MS, then you should drop this subject.



You have no real reason to assume he's not got knowledge on it. Unless you can tell me that the MS' jutsu, like the Rinnegan, are unknown then I've got no reason to drop it.



> So you are admitting that a natural born Uchiha who has access to certain amount of top secret Uchiha information didn't know much.
> And yet Fukasaku knows ?
> Again, I'll ask for evidence or just concede.



As the manga said, certain eyes can see the info better and Sasuke didn't know about Susanoo. Oonoki knew of Susanoo and the databook said it had a reputation. 



> I never said it wasn't a retcon. But prior to the "black zetsu is Kaguya's will" retcon, he was still one of the more knowledgeable characters in the manga whose job was to watch and record fights and he didn't know about Susano'O and he only heard about Amaterasu but never seen it. So even for a guy like him(how gets the chance to be in close proximity to Itachi and watch him fight), Itachi's skillset was for the most part a mystery.



I said Zetsu not knowing, then knowing, about Susanoo was a retcon. The whole MS knowledge was a retcon since he was observing the apex Uchiha. Plus the fact he heard about Amaterasu, rather than saying it was a unique jutsu to Itachi, in-itself says it has a reputation. 
Itachi's main skills were the MS: you know that, you know Itachi.



> So far every MS user we've seen had a unique Jutsu, with the exception of Madara and Izuna, and their MS powers were never explored.
> Like I said, Zetsu was one of the most knowledgeable characters in Naruto and even he never saw Amaterasu and he likely knew about those techniques because you know he was in the same organization with Itachi.



Shisui: his chakra colour matched a combination of Hashirama and his own chakra. 
Obito: Zetsu explicitly said that his MS powers would be different due to Senju cells. 
Shin: he was an experiment with no Uchiha DNA. 
The only other Uchiha with different MS jutsu were different from other Uchiha. Sasuke displayed all three MS jutsu and the databook says mastering Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi was how MS users (in the era they got the reputation) was how Susanoo was obtained. 

I'll accept Itachi was the reason Zetsu knew about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi when you can explain why he described them in general terms and not as jutsu Itachi uniquely has. 



> How is he going to deal with black flames spawning in his face though ?
> Itachi is not the weaker 3 paths of Pain. Jiraiya isn't just dissapearing and out running Itachi. Pain wasn't even taking him seriously through out the fight.



We can tackle Itachi-Pain matters in the relevant thread. 
Itachi isn't Pain, he doesn't have the same abilities Pain had to corner Jiraiya, if Jiraiya wanted to run: he could run.

MS to the face would be an obvious ender, but with knowledge on the Sharingan, why would Jiraiya stand in close proximity?



> Like I said, those work good on paper, but executing them on the field is something else because they are up against an opponent who will account in their counters. Jiraiya can't fight while avoiding eye contact because he needs to watch out Itachi's eyes to anticipate Amaterasu. Itachi's track record of landing genjtusu is 100%. Regardless of his opponents countermeasures, he was able to use genjutsu without fail.



What about using Sage sensing or his barrier?



> I do think knowledge increases Jiraiya's chances of survival but I don't think it gives him an edge against Itachi because Itachi is just outright stronger and Susano'O and Amaterasu can't be dealt with just knowledge, you need a specific skillset to deal with those.
> There is nothing in Jiraiya's arsenal that allows him to counter any of his Itachi's jutsu directly. For example Sage Kabuto directly counters Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu due to his unqiue skillset.



I agree with countering them. However wouldn't the knowledge prompt Jiraiya to hide and use all his abilities to delay Itachi till the frog song (his only real hope against Susanoo) is ready?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 19, 2016)

Manga said:
			
		

> The Almighty Amaterasu:
> - hebi sasuke: failed
> - hachibi: failed
> - karin: failed
> ...


 Those people all had only one counter to Amaterasu. We provide not one, not two but three counters for Jiraiya and we're told none of those counters will work. Basically everyone's argument is Itachi will sidestep every attack and Jiraiya will counter nothing. This thread died a long time ago.

@Equilibrium139
Yomi Numa isn't Suiton
The Databook says that the  Suiton Jutsu you pointed can be walked on so its mechanics cannot be compared to Yomi Numa.

The battlefield that you said is small is larger than the battlefields Itachi fights in. Way larger. The Databook says the opponent is sunk, not that they sink. It's a force that pulls you down. Also, pain was going to run on the roof but sunk anyway. He had chakra focused to his feet. Yomi Numa can't be walked on. It's very debatable whether Itachi can actually dodge an attack that has such a huge AOE. You're also not considering that Jiraiya thought that swamp was too small.

Anyway even if Itachi completely avoids Yomi Numa a new distance will be put between them. A large enough distance for Jiraiya to safely use Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō & hide in Yomi Numa to prep SM.

If I said Itachi had one counter to sound Genjutsu you'd all stick to it like fucking glue.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 23, 2016)

Bonly said:


> It would be a close fight but I'd give the nod to Itachi more times then not between genjutsu and the MS I see Jiraiya getting caught before he can take out Itachi


So you are disobeying the manga? Lol, end of thread as far as I'm concerned. Jiraiya wins as per canon.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 23, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> You know what I'll be that guy.
> 
> Yomi Numa GG.
> Itachi has no _real_ counter.


And "real" is the keyword here.

Reactions: Like 1


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