# Imperium of Man vs. The Galactic Empire



## strongarm85 (Nov 5, 2008)

The Imperium is in its current version. The Empire is Pre-Battle of Endor. How does it turn out?


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## Sengoku (Nov 6, 2008)

There are some truly devoted 40k fanatics on gamefaqs' board (Warhammer 40K: Dawn of War II) which you should ask this as well. XD

Too bad there isn't anyone on TWF's knowledge level to compete and win against them.


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## Wesley (Nov 6, 2008)

The Imperium of Man.  They're much larger and more militarized.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 6, 2008)

Done before - 40K wins on the ground, GE wins in space (much better mobility, numbers, slightly more firepower, etc.)


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## God Emperor of Mankind (Nov 6, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Done before - 40K wins on the ground, GE wins in space (much better mobility, numbers, slightly more firepower, etc.)



GE does NOT have a numbers advantage over the Imperium.


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## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

God Emperor of Mankind said:


> GE does NOT have a numbers advantage over the Imperium.



In manpower, no, but it does in terms of ship production and fleet size. The GE has the option of simply zerging with Star Destroyers of various sizes and letting any survivors (won't be many, granted) BDZ the Imperium planets.


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## God Emperor of Mankind (Nov 6, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> In manpower, no, but it does in terms of ship production and fleet size.



The Imperium has tens of thousands of planets whose soul purpose is to build gigantic metal behemoths of war, and they aren't stupid. If they were invaded by a force who dominates space, they will create and build more ships. If we're considering the Imperium in it's currents state, sure. Capability wise the Imperium could build a fleet several times larger if they focused on such.


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## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

God Emperor of Mankind said:


> The Imperium has tens of thousands of planets whose soul purpose is to build gigantic metal behemoths of war, and they aren't stupid. If they were invaded by a force who dominates space, they will create and build more ships. If we're considering the Imperium in it's currents state, sure. Capability wise the Imperium could build a fleet several times larger if they focused on such.



Most of the forge worlds are not focused on ship production. Remember, consumer electronics like radios and refrigerators and TVs have to come from somewhere. Most of the military forge worlds produce lasguns, ammo, bolters, tanks, titans, etc., not ships.

Besides, ship production takes a shitload of time, considering how asinine the AdMech is. Those guys beat off to the thought of building ships one sheet of metal at a time. Considering they control all of the Imperium's manufacturing facility, they're not likely to go along with the High Lords' demands for increased ship production. Even if they did, they'd have to retool most of the forge worlds for that purpose.

Considering the time it'd take for the IoM to ramp up production, the GE would outnumber the IoM fleets by at least 10 to 1. The GE has thousands and thousands of Star Destroyers. The IoM has maybe 75 Retribution-class battleships per sector, along with their escort fleets. Even if the IoM ramped it up to 1000% production they'd still be woefully behind.

That said, the GE doesn't really have any way of stopping IoM raiding fleets and vice versa, considering hyperspace and the Warp don't interlap (and if they did the GE would be instantly fucked due to daemons). What most don't realize is the IoM possesses portable Warp beacons that Navigators can use in places where the Astronomicon is dim, meaning they CAN make attacks into GE space.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

The Galactic Empire had its height had over 10,000,000 member worlds and that's not counting colonies, territories and procetorates.

The IoM does not have more planets then the GE, not by a long shot. Also hyperspace equipped ships in Star Wars are shitload faster then IoM ships and their communication technology is also vastly superior.

And considering how the GE also has Purge and Dark Troopers, they can at least up a good fight against Space Marines.

GE wins.


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## Ork (Nov 6, 2008)

Imperium of Man stomps this. Completely.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

No they really don't stomp. Go read Darklyre's post on their numbers. The contest gets decided in space.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

Also in a year's time, Reborn Palpatine had hundreds of Super Star Destroyers of various classes produced. And that was when the Empire was confinded to the outer-mid rim and galactic core with less then 1/4th of its original resources and territory.


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## Gig (Nov 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> And considering how the GE also has Purge and Dark Troopers, they can at least up a good fight against Space Marines.
> 
> GE wins.


True but dark troopers where only produced in the hundreds maybe thousands and once the ark hammer was destroyed by kyle katarn the empire lost all the research of there construction though I suppose with time they could crack open one of the remaining ones and then start reproducing them.

Any way the GE wins dominating space combat >>>>>>>>>> dominating ground combat when in a battle between space fairing civilization.

Edit: Also what are purge troopers ?


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

Purge Troopers were early Dark Troopers, and considering how the Empire still uses both, even after Katarn destroyed the Ark Hammer, they can still produce them.


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## rldragon (Nov 6, 2008)

What is GE going to do against psykers?
Well, they can destroy them easily in space, but on land?


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

The Empire has a legion of Dark Jedi and Force Users, which are all more powerful then your sterotypical Jedi or Psyker for that matter.


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## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

The GE doesn't lose the ground battle because of psykers vs. Jedi or Troopers vs. Space Marines. GE regular infantry may be outnumbered by the Imperial Guard, but the IG requires orbital superiority to win its fights. The GE loses on the ground because it has no equivalent to Titans, which are basically starship weapons mounted as ground weaponry.

In space, the GE outnumbers the IoM and can outmaneuver it via hyperspace. Of course, the IoM still has that plot-dependent ability to travel back in time via the Warp. 

By the way, Cain's Last Stand recently featured an absurdly powerful psyker, who had mind control on the level of Martian Manhunter. Basically, anyone who was in line of sight of the psyker instantly fell under his control as soon as he started speaking. The mind control was so strong that he didn't even have to continue exerting his powers over them. Once his mind control was set, they'd actually convert their beliefs to Chaos, only reverting to their normal selves in an area devoid of the Warp (presence of a blank). Even Sororitas fell under his control. His power was so absurd that what the Chaos warmaster did was simply march Imperium prisoners into a stadium, let the psyker speak, and he instantly had tens of thousands of converts at a time. Snipers couldn't be used to kill the psyker because just the act of looking through a scope at him was enough to set off his mind control ability.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

Yeah, you need to stop sounding like a Trekkie bring up random plot powers of the novel thing, Darkylre.

And the GE has ground emplacements which can disable or destroy ISD class ships, and have been used against both armor and starfighters.

Titans are also going to get mauled by them. Also your average Stormie is better equipped, armored and trained better then your average fodder Imperial Guardsmen.

Considering how half a dozen Stormies took out Jawa Sand-Crawlers with nothing but infantry class blaster carbines and rifles, they're going to fuck up the IG.


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## Estrecca (Nov 6, 2008)

The latest version of the Imperium (5th ed) has one _massive_ disadvantage when it comes to fighting a war of extra-galactic aggression... Namely, the weakening of the Astronomicon which these days doesn't even reach Ultramar in the easternmost borders of Ultima Segmentum which means that the IoM cannot even safely navigate the edges of its own galaxy anymore.

In the other hand, they have a buttload more psykers than the Empire has Darksiders. As far as I know, there is no evidence suggesting that Palpatine created anything even remotely approaching the size of the Jedi Order and the last time this was discussed in SD.net the conclusion was that Palpatine's Force Sensitives probably numbered in the hundreds.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

No one claimed that Palpatine's Dark Jedi or Inquistrious is going to be rivaling the Jedi Order at its peak.


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## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yeah, you need to stop sounding like a Trekkie bring up random plot powers of the novel thing, Darkylre.
> 
> And the GE has ground emplacements which can disable or destroy ISD class ships, and have been used against both armor and starfighters.
> 
> ...



The problem with ground emplacements against Titans is that Titans carry void shields, which stop most energy weapons cold. Just as an example of how strong a single Imperator Titan is, in Titanicus, ten Reavers and Warhounds had to use a mindlink between all the Princeps to target all their weaponry on one structurally-weakened section of an Imperator's void shielding to collapse it. The mindlink was required because all the weaponry had to be fired at the exact same time otherwise the shielding would've stopped it. Afterwards, it still took 10 minutes of constant firing to actually kill the Imperator, and the Imperator was still able to kill 2-3 of the Reavers and Warhounds in that time. Reavers and Warhounds have the ability to blow away factory-sized buildings with one shot.

The IG infantry die like the cannon fodder they are. The problem with going against the IG is the ridiculous amount of armor and artillery they field at the same time, namely the 70-km range Earthshakers and the absurdly armored Baneblades and other superheavies. Leman Russ tanks may seem weak and architecturally retarded, but they're tough enough to be hit by weapons strong enough to fling them many meters away and still be fully operational.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

I hope you realize that from the film, TESB, that even a AT-AT can target structares kilometers out with absolutely no problem and I hope to god your not claiming that Titans firepower compare to ISD killing ground emplacements of the Empire.

And the Empire has heavy armor and artillery units of its own.


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## Darklyre (Nov 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> I hope you realize that from the film, TESB, that even a AT-AT can target structares kilometers out with absolutely no problem and I hope to god your not claiming that Titans firepower compare to ISD killing ground emplacements of the Empire.
> 
> And the Empire has heavy armor and artillery units of its own.



What is the yield on those ground emplacements? How many shots does it take to actually take down an ISD? Also, how does the weaponry work (as in, is it an EMP effect of some kind, or does it use concussive shock, etc.)?

And of course an AT-AT can target things from multiple klicks away. Titans can too. No point in having block-busting weaponry if you can only use it point blank.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

It can overcome the particle and ray shields of a Star Destroyer, the same shields which can tank megatons of fire power with no effect through a multiple gigaton EMP.

So no what a ISD can't take is not something a Titan can.


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## Estrecca (Nov 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> So no what a ISD can't take is not something a Titan can.



Problem being that ion cannons and planetary turbolasers are fixed installations designed to deal with orbiting starships and simply aren't designed for use against land-based targets. You may remember that the Rebels couldn't bring their top-of-the-line ion cannon against the AT-AT walkers in Hoth.


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## Rice Ball (Nov 6, 2008)

Imperium of Man would stomp any land battle.
One true advantage they would have would be the number of hero's, the GE only have Palpatine and Vadar as decent heroes, while the Imperium of Man have a few Primach's and a bucketload of Psykers and Champions.

Space battles would likely go to GE tho, if they can avoid terminator/dreadnaught assaults via teleportation, they would win this battle via orbital bombardment.


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## Fang (Nov 6, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Problem being that ion cannons and planetary turbolasers are fixed installations designed to deal with orbiting starships and simply aren't designed for use against land-based targets. You may remember that the Rebels couldn't bring their top-of-the-line ion cannon against the AT-AT walkers in Hoth.



Except you know those turbolasers and weapons technology available to the Empire is vastly superior to the stuff the Rebels. There are mobile weapons platforms available to numerous ground installations and bases of the Empire.

Even the Hutt slave masters of Ylesia had those as well.



Rice Ball said:


> Imperium of Man would stomp any land battle.
> One true advantage they would have would be the number of hero's, the GE only have Palpatine and Vadar as decent heroes, while the Imperium of Man have a few Primach's and a bucketload of Psykers and Champions.
> 
> Space battles would likely go to GE tho, if they can avoid terminator/dreadnaught assaults via teleportation, they would win this battle via orbital bombardment.



Yeah their going to do that while getting hammered thousands of kilometers away by the Empire's Star Destroyers.

They aren't teleporting through particle or ray shields. Much less the Empire before RoTJ has Starkiller, Palpatine, Vader, Jerec, the Imperial Inquistorius and Dark Jedi.

And Space Marines would struggle with Purge Troopers and Dark Troopers.


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## God Emperor of Mankind (Nov 6, 2008)

TWF said:


> They aren't teleporting through particle or ray shields.
> 
> And Space Marines would struggle with Purge Troopers and Dark Troopers.



Asking why, evidence, etc on both of these.


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## Rice Ball (Nov 6, 2008)

Way to read my post well.
I said GE would win the space battle and proceed to bombard any land battle.

However in a straight land battle, the GE wouldn't stand a chance. The number of terminators and Dreadnaughts outnumber the Dark troopers by far, not to ment the far superior land based weapons like Emporer Titans.


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## Ork (Nov 6, 2008)

The imperium of man would win this.
Super star Destroyers are noted to be 19km long according to Star wars.com

"The actual size of starships in the  universe is debated, however it is worth noting that the upper size of an Imperial Escort mentioned is 30 kilometers long from the Black Library story "Wolf Pack" by Gordon Rennie"

Imperial Escort=30km.
Largest Ship in the Empire Fleet=19km.
Its not complicated.

You can say "SIZE DOESNT EQUAL POWER" if you like... 
except it does.

And, just to rub it in

"*Escort ships* are the smallest type of ship in the Imperial Navy fleets"

From the Warhammer Wiki.

In the Case of Smaller ships

Tie fighters are: 6.3 Metres long according to Starwars.com

"The _*Fury*_ Interceptor is the most common starfighter used by the Imperial Navy for space combat. With some variants reaching 60 to 70 metres in length, the _Fury_ is significantly larger than most atmospheric fighters, and carries a pilot, navigator and gunner. On occasion, an Astropath  will also be aboard, to provide greater communications capability. The _Fury'_s reinforced hull contains an extensive network of circuitry and life-support systems, and even has a small chemical toilet and sleeping compartment for the crew. _Furies_ are normally equipped with multiple forward-firing banks of lascannons and anti-starfighter missiles. An average carrier can carry upwards 2 thousand Furies (although most will carry less as to increase their capacity to carry more Starhawks and Atmospheric craft), split into fighter wings of roughly 15 interceptors each."

Each of the fighter craft employed by the imperium is TEN TIMES the size of a tie.


Just to put another Nail in the coffin: 
*"Torpedoes* are long-range missiles carried by many Imperial Navy vessels.  Unlike weapons batteries and lances, torpedoes cannot be deflected by a ship's shields."

WHOOPS! Shields=useless.

And on that note

"Void shields are usually _layered_, meaning that a Titan or Starship isn't protected by just a single void shield but by several layers of individual shields. The front shield will absorb the incoming fire until it overloads and collapses, at which point the second layer shield becomes the front shield until it collapses, at which point the third shield becomes the front shield, etc. Meanwhile the tech adepts aboard the Titan or Ship would repair and restart the downed shields and so create a new layer. Theoretically, this means that Titans and Ships are invulnerable unless the enemy can sustain heavy enough firepower to collapse all void shields faster than they can be restarted."


Compare that to imperial shields?
"most starships carry some form of shielding technology, to protect it not only from the natural hazards of space travel, but also enemy attacks. Since smaller ships have limited power with which to generate deflector shields, they often only protect set areas, or arcs, of the vessel and rely on maneuverability to avoid fire."
lol. Whatcha gonna do? Bigger, badder weapons, better defenses.

Im not seeing how The eh40k Imps are losing this.


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## Fang (Nov 7, 2008)

What a bad post. Those 1.6 kilometer ISDs can match pound for pound with IoM warships. And they outnumber them 20 to 1.


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## rldragon (Nov 7, 2008)

@TWF: I am curious, where the fuck did you find these Dark Jedi, Purge troopers, etc?


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## Ork (Nov 7, 2008)

TWF said:


> What a bad post. Those 1.6 kilometer ISDs can match pound for pound with IoM warships. And they outnumber them 20 to 1.



So stupid.
Larger=More space for power plants, more space for weapons, more space for crew, more space for shield generators, more space for armour.
When the smallest ship in your opponents navy is nearly twice the size of your largest ship. its time to run.


Do you have proof the Galactic empure outnumbers the imperium of man? Not just "Oh the Galactic empire has this many planets, so the MUST have this many ships" Actual proof of numbers.


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## Fang (Nov 7, 2008)

Absence said:


> So stupid.
> Larger=More space for power plants, more space for weapons, more space for crew, more space for shield generators, more space for armour.
> When the smallest ship in your opponents navy is nearly twice the size of your largest ship. its time to run.
> 
> ...



A Mark I Imperial-Class Star Destroyer has a reactor that produces more energy then a small star.

The Empire has over 10,000,000 member worlds and over thousands of orbital dry-docks, stations and facilities designed to produce capital ships and starfighters.

And at its height, the minimum fleet the Empire had was stated to be over 45,000 ISD Mark I Star Destroyers alone. And this isn't counting Venrators, Acclimators, SSDs, frigates, cruisers and the like.

So your concession is accepted, especially when a far more expierence and well rounded source conceeded that the IoM is badly outnumbered and slightly out-gunned in space.


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## Ork (Nov 7, 2008)

TWF said:


> A Mark I Imperial-Class Star Destroyer has a reactor that produces more energy then a small star.
> 
> The Empire has over 10,000,000 member worlds and over thousands of orbital dry-docks, stations and facilities designed to produce capital ships and starfighters.
> 
> ...



First off: How do you know the reactor in an Impman ship is of lower power? Could be three hundred times the strength for all you know.
Second: Exactly how many worlds are in the imperium?
Well here's a clue, imperials have ten million planets? 

"The *Imperium of Man* is a fictional galactic empire of millions of star systems that contains the vast majority of humanity in the forty-first millennium" 

impman has millions of STAR SYSTEMS.
Im not seeing them being that badly outnumbered here.

A far more experienced and well rounded source? On the Internet? Lol.
You say that because he agree's with you. Don't be so obvious.

So far:
Impman has weaponry able to IGNORE shields.
Impman has multiple shields on every ship, and they ALL need to be taken down at once in order to damage the ship, as they cycle back up.
Impman outmasses the imperials hugely
Impman Has more planets.

Imperials have... uhh... lots of ships... no one can definitively say if they have MORE or not.
Imperials have inferior shield tech
Imperials have inferor Numbers of planets
Imperials have less combat experience.
Imperials have less ground combat capability.

Who wins? Duh.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2008)

God Emperor of Mankind said:


> GE does NOT have a numbers advantage over the Imperium.



You do realize that if they had built Star Destroyers instead of the Death Star, it has enough material to make billions of them, right? Simple math by comparing the volumes.



> The Imperium has tens of thousands of planets whose soul purpose is to build gigantic metal behemoths of war, and they aren't stupid. If they were invaded by a force who dominates space, they will create and build more ships. If we're considering the Imperium in it's currents state, sure. Capability wise the Imperium could build a fleet several times larger if they focused on such.



As could the empire. Kuat Drive Yards is just one of their production systems, and it has a huge shipyard in the shape of a ring that encircles the entire solar system.

Not to mention it wouldn't matter if the IOM had a bigger fleet, as their FTL is incredibly limited (sometimes it takes months to get somewhere through the warp, while hyperdrive can cross the galaxy in minutes. The GE fleet could just hyperspace in and raid all of their planets, then jump out before any help arrived)



> That said, the GE doesn't really have any way of stopping IoM raiding fleets and vice versa, considering hyperspace and the Warp don't interlap (and if they did the GE would be instantly fucked due to daemons). What most don't realize is the IoM possesses portable Warp beacons that Navigators can use in places where the Astronomicon is dim, meaning they CAN make attacks into GE space.



But the GE attacks would be faster - and it's not like Imperial planets don't have their own defenses (planetary shields, defense fleets, planetary ion cannons and turbolasers, etc.)



> What is GE going to do against psykers?
> Well, they can destroy them easily in space, but on land?



Winning battles on land doesn't really matter when your opponent can just slag the planet from orbit.



> The GE doesn't lose the ground battle because of psykers vs. Jedi or Troopers vs. Space Marines. GE regular infantry may be outnumbered by the Imperial Guard, but the IG requires orbital superiority to win its fights. The GE loses on the ground because it has no equivalent to Titans, which are basically starship weapons mounted as ground weaponry.



Actually Tank Droids did serve that purpose, but they were never produced in large numbers and aren't as powerful as Titans.



> In space, the GE outnumbers the IoM and can outmaneuver it via hyperspace. Of course, the IoM still has that plot-dependent ability to travel back in time via the Warp.



Which they have no real control over.



> By the way, Cain's Last Stand recently featured an absurdly powerful psyker, who had mind control on the level of Martian Manhunter. Basically, anyone who was in line of sight of the psyker instantly fell under his control as soon as he started speaking. The mind control was so strong that he didn't even have to continue exerting his powers over them. Once his mind control was set, they'd actually convert their beliefs to Chaos, only reverting to their normal selves in an area devoid of the Warp (presence of a blank). Even Sororitas fell under his control. His power was so absurd that what the Chaos warmaster did was simply march Imperium prisoners into a stadium, let the psyker speak, and he instantly had tens of thousands of converts at a time. Snipers couldn't be used to kill the psyker because just the act of looking through a scope at him was enough to set off his mind control ability.



And this guy works for Chaos, not the IoM - so I fail to see the relevance.



> Space battles would likely go to GE tho, if they can avoid terminator/dreadnaught assaults via teleportation, they would win this battle via orbital bombardment.



You would have to prove that they can teleport through their shields.



> Except you know those turbolasers and weapons technology available to the Empire is vastly superior to the stuff the Rebels. There are mobile weapons platforms available to numerous ground installations and bases of the Empire.
> 
> Even the Hutt slave masters of Ylesia had those as well.



I'm sorry TWF, but I don't recall any reference to mass - produced anticapship weapons being adapted for ground battles. If you could maybe provide a reference?



> Asking why, evidence, etc on both of these.



Burden of proof is on you to prove they could teleport through the shields.



> You can say "SIZE DOESNT EQUAL POWER" if you like...
> except it does.



Okay then. A Culture ROU is around 200 meters long.

You want to argue that the IoM fleet could beat it?



> Just to put another Nail in the coffin:
> "Torpedoes are long-range missiles carried by many Imperial Navy vessels. Unlike weapons batteries and lances, torpedoes cannot be deflected by a ship's shields."
> 
> WHOOPS! Shields=useless.



Because shielding technology in one universe is automatically equal to shielding technology in a completely different universe, right?



> And on that note
> 
> "Void shields are usually layered, meaning that a Titan or Starship isn't protected by just a single void shield but by several layers of individual shields. The front shield will absorb the incoming fire until it overloads and collapses, at which point the second layer shield becomes the front shield until it collapses, at which point the third shield becomes the front shield, etc. Meanwhile the tech adepts aboard the Titan or Ship would repair and restart the downed shields and so create a new layer. Theoretically, this means that Titans and Ships are invulnerable unless the enemy can sustain heavy enough firepower to collapse all void shields faster than they can be restarted."



And we've seen them overwhelmed by much less firepower than Imperial ships have.

An outdated Venator - class star destroyer produces 1e24 watts, that's as much power as a small star.

An Executor - class Star Dreadnought produces more power than the sun.

Let's not even mention the Death Star.



> Compare that to imperial shields?
> "most starships carry some form of shielding technology, to protect it not only from the natural hazards of space travel, but also enemy attacks. Since smaller ships have limited power with which to generate deflector shields, they often only protect set areas, or arcs, of the vessel and rely on maneuverability to avoid fire."
> lol. Whatcha gonna do? Bigger, badder weapons, better defenses.
> 
> Im not seeing how The eh40k Imps are losing this.



Even fighters have full shielding.

Do you realize than the Executor's shields survived 3 Star Destroyers slamming into it at relativistic speed?



> What a bad post. Those 1.6 kilometer ISDs can match pound for pound with IoM warships. And they outnumber them 20 to 1.



Not to mention the mobility advantage.

While the 40K fleets are traversing the Warp, the GE fleets will be raiding IoM planets across the galaxy in hours.



> So stupid.
> Larger=More space for power plants, more space for weapons more space for weapons, more space for crew, more space for shield generators, more space for armour.



This is assuming that:

A. The space is used with equal efficiency

and.

B. Said power plants, shields, armor, and weapons are equivalent

Which they are not



> When the smallest ship in your opponents navy is nearly twice the size of your largest ship. its time to run.



Fine, if you want to play it that way:







> Do you have proof the Galactic empure outnumbers the imperium of man? Not just "Oh the Galactic empire has this many planets, so the MUST have this many ships" Actual proof of numbers.



All the proof you need is the second death star. There's enough material in it to build billions of star destroyers, if they so chose.

I'll see if I can find the calcs.



> First off: How do you know the reactor in an Impman ship is of lower power? Could be three hundred times the strength for all you know.




Argument from ignorance. Burden of proof is on you.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 7, 2008)

> Second: Exactly how many worlds are in the imperium?
> Well here's a clue, imperials have ten million planets?
> 
> "The Imperium of Man is a fictional galactic empire of millions of star systems that contains the vast majority of humanity in the forty-first millennium"
> ...



They are in terms of industrial capacity. And you still haven't even attempted to address the mobility advantage.



> So far:
> Impman has weaponry able to IGNORE shields.



40Kverse shields, which you idiotically assume applies to any shields in fiction. Not to mention that 



> Impman has multiple shields on every ship, and they ALL need to be taken down at once in order to damage the ship, as they cycle back up.



Which turbolasers have more than enough power to do



> Impman outmasses the imperials hugely



Do I need to post the Death Star picture again?



> Impman Has more planets.



Not really....

Unless you assume every star system they own has at least 5 inhabitable planets, which is kind of a stretch considering out solar system has 8 planets and only 1 is inhabitable.



> Imperials have... uhh... lots of ships... no one can definitively say if they have MORE or not.



Death Star volume.



> Imperials have inferior shield tech



Show me IoM shields taking impacts from 3 mile - long chunks of metal colliding with them simultaneously at relativistic speed.




> Imperials have inferor Numbers of planets



This is just restating what you already said, and it's an unfounded assumption.



> Imperials have less combat experience.



Based on what?



> Imperials have less ground combat capability.



Okay given, but that's irrelevant in a space - based war.

All of your ground superiority means shit when this happens to you



> Who wins? Duh.



Duh indeed.


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## Ork (Nov 7, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> They are in terms of industrial capacity. And you still haven't even attempted to address the mobility advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Idotically think applies? Lol. Thats like saying that Ki in Ranma And Ki In DBZ cannot be compared in any way, shape or form, because they're different verses, despite having exactly the same effects... Both are shields, both have the same effects, its logical that shield rippers on one would affect the other, otherwise this argument is pointless, as for all we know the armour on impman ships and the armour on Imperial ships are perfectly designed to nul the others weapons. You have to go with the similarities and assume. 

At BOTH the death star things, the Death star is 160km diameter, or one was, the other was 120. There's One of them. Whoopdidoo. Hardly a godlike superweapon when it barely outmasses impman capital ships. 

Who said star systems had to have 5-8 habitable planets? Millions of star systems. Terraforming. Even if there's a mere 5 planets per system, which is VERY low and conservative, at least 3 of them would be terraformable on average, meaning solid instead of gas or frozen liquid. 
Thats ten million planets assuming that the "millions of star systems refers to TWO million, not more.

A forge world is an entire world of trillions of residents that has the sole purpose of Industry. Generally Military related industry, this IS warhammer we're talking about. 

Are there such worlds in The imperial universe? Afaik most planets are just planets, with people on them going around their buisness, with some military bases and some shipyards in orbit? On this im not sure, if I'm wrong, just tell me.

But one planet thats solely devoted to military production is easily equal to several that are divided.

You realise that your average star destroyer is 1.6km long right? And the Emperors whatchamacallits, the black ones, are 3.2km?
thats 1/20th and 1/10th the size of the smallest impman ship.

heh.

The imperial universe has ONE fleet with shield rippers then?
Every single ship in the impman fleets has them. Every. Single. One.
Cept the fighters. Well, the torpedo fighters have them.

The Super Star destroyer Executor had its shields taken down by 12 mon calamari cruisers, which are 1.2km long. Admittedly it still kicked their arse. But... you know...?

Sure, Orbital Bombardment hurts.
Did you know the Titan Super Devestator Plasma Gun mounted on the Imperator titan is well known for shooting down Impman Battleship equivalents?

These are all official numbers, The imperial sizes I get from 

and the Impman numbers I get from the novel "The Wolf Pack".


At your "relativistic speed impact shield" thingey, How do we know what the yield of main weapons in either verse is compared to that kind of impact? For all we know, Sunlances and Nova cannons could actually do more damage than that.

Or they might not. Who knows? Its hardly of any use in the argument if you're asking me to compare to impman shields when we don't know all the details.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 8, 2008)

Absence said:


> Idotically think applies? Lol. Thats like saying that Ki in Ranma And Ki In DBZ cannot be compared in any way, shape or form, because they're different verses, despite having exactly the same effects...



Since when do Void Shields and SW Shields have "exactly the same effects"?



> Both are shields, both have the same effects, its logical that shield rippers on one would affect the other, otherwise this argument is pointless, as for all we know the armour on impman ships and the armour on Imperial ships are perfectly designed to nul the others weapons. You have to go with the similarities and assume.



Um, no. They're based on completely different technologies and operate on completely different principles.

Are you going to argue next that IoM weapons can penetrate Light Hawk Wings? After all, those are shields too.



> At BOTH the death star things, the Death star is 160km diameter, or one was, the other was 120. There's One of them. Whoopdidoo. Hardly a godlike superweapon when it barely outmasses impman capital ships.



Actually, the second Death Star is around 800 kilometers in diamater (this was derived by scaling from the movie, confirmed by the model makers, and directly stated in newer canon sources). The first one was 160 km.

The old figures come from an RPG sourcebook which is widely known to be inaccurate (for example, it had the Executor listed as being only 8 kilometers long).

And show me one engineering feat from the Post-DAOT IoM that compares to building an 800 - km diameter mobile, planet - destroying, shielded moon in under 2 years.



> Who said star systems had to have 5-8 habitable planets? Millions of star systems. Terraforming.



Post evidence of widespread terraforming in 40k. The only reference I could find was 



> Even if there's a mere 5 planets per system, which is VERY low and conservative, at least 3 of them would be terraformable on average, meaning solid instead of gas or frozen liquid.



What is the source of these numbers? 



> Thats ten million planets assuming that the "millions of star systems refers to TWO million, not more.



I have a reference to there being 12 million inhabitable systems in the GFFA - and the Empire ruled it all.



> A forge world is an entire world of trillions of residents that has the sole purpose of Industry. Generally Military related industry, this IS warhammer we're talking about.



Show me one industrial feat matching the 2nd Death Star.



> Are there such worlds in The imperial universe? Afaik most planets are just planets, with people on them going around their buisness, with some military bases and some shipyards in orbit? On this im not sure, if I'm wrong, just tell me.







Not to mention that  are mass produced and there are tons of them all across the galaxy



> But one planet thats solely devoted to *military* production is easily equal to several that are divided.



I highlighted the key word there for you. Care to prove that they are solely devoted to military production? As was previously pointed out, all of the non-military equipment has to come from _somewhere_.



> You realise that your average star destroyer is 1.6km long right? And the Emperors whatchamacallits, the black ones, are 3.2km?
> thats 1/20th and 1/10th the size of the smallest impman ship.
> 
> heh.



Superman is only 2 meters tall. I guess he can't beat a modern aircraft carrier, then. 




> The imperial universe has ONE fleet with shield rippers then?
> Every single ship in the impman fleets has them. Every. Single. One.
> Cept the fighters. Well, the torpedo fighters have them.



The plans are known and the weapon could easily be mass-produced.

Hell, if it was a bloodlusted scenario they could mass produce Sun Crushers.

Not to mention you're still relying on the retarded no-limits fallacy of being able to break any shields.



> The Super Star destroyer Executor had its shields taken down by 12 mon calamari cruisers, which are 1.2km long. Admittedly it still kicked their arse. But... you know...?



It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that those cruisers had massive firepower powered by hypermatter reactors that each produced more energy than a small star, could it?

Using your logic, the Excession, which is only 50 meters across, would lose to an IOM ship, despite the fact that it can destroy an entire universe.



> Sure, Orbital Bombardment hurts.
> Did you know the Titan Super Devestator Plasma Gun mounted on the Imperator titan is well known for shooting down Impman Battleship equivalents?



Too bad turbolasers have a maximum range measured in light - minutes - not to mention that, pound for pound, GE ships are tougher.



> These are all official numbers, The imperial sizes I get from *snip*



Well you got the Executor's size right, but the Death Stars' sizes wrong.



> and the Impman numbers I get from the novel "The Wolf Pack".



Okay....




> At your "relativistic speed impact shield" thingey, How do we know what the yield of main weapons in either verse is compared to that kind of impact? For all we know, Sunlances and Nova cannons could actually do more damage than that.



The burden of proof would be on you to support that claim. IIRC a nova cannon was calculated once as being in the low teraton range, and it's a huge weapon that most ships can only fit 1 or 2. Whereas a heavy turbolaser deals comparable damage, and an ISD has over 20, whereas as SSD has hundreds, and they can fire almost once per second.

Do you know that an outdated Acclamator - class troop transport has shields that can dissipate 16 petatons of energy per second? That's 16,000,000,000 megatons. Yeah....



> Or they might not. Who knows? Its hardly of any use in the argument if you're asking me to compare to impman shields when we don't know all the details.



Argument from ignorance. You're the one claiming their shields are superior, you prove it.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2008)

FYI EM, the Death Star II was over 900 kilometers. Also the I remember when people were claiming that the Executor was only 8 kilometers in scale though it was directly contradicted when several ISDs were sailing around it.

Also one of the codexs for the Imperium of Man states they only have about literally a million worlds firmly in their grasp, and they lose dozens of worlds by the droves to Chaos and other things.

So seriously, where is this crap about the IoM being larger then the GE coming from?


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2008)

Also it only took six months to produce a Super-Class Star Destroyer on a single drydock at Fondor.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 8, 2008)

I couldn't remember off the top of my head whether it was 800 or 900, so I used the conservative one


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

TWF said:


> FYI EM, the Death Star II was over 900 kilometers. Also the I remember when people were claiming that the Executor was only 8 kilometers in scale though it was directly contradicted when several ISDs were sailing around it.
> 
> Also one of the codexs for the Imperium of Man states they only have about literally a million worlds firmly in their grasp, and they lose dozens of worlds by the droves to Chaos and other things.
> 
> So seriously, where is this crap about the IoM being larger then the GE coming from?



The Warhammer Wiki, The book "The Hunting Pack" , General Knowledge of an Actual Galaxy spanning empire thats not stuck in one bit and calling the rest Unknown space. (isnt that what they called it?)

I was rong about the Death star, the DS2 Is pretty large yeah, I didn't know they made a THIRD one 0.o.

Did it get blown up by a torp down a tube too =D?



@ Endless mike: Read my post, I said that Ki in ranma and Ki in DBZ have exactly the same effects, increasing power and speed and allowing energy blasts.
And I was constantly saying the void shields are BETTER than their GE counterparts.
They have the same effects in that they stop weapons on an invisible energy shield that prevernts damage to the hull. None of us know the specifics so you have to assume.

Light hawk wings are a completely different thing, they arent a ship bourne shield. Theyre some sort of semi mystical ultimate power reality warping godshield thing. 

And no, the second Death star was 160km.

They went: Dstar 1: 120km, Death Star 2: 160km, DE Superdeathstar NAMED Death star 2, 900km.
I personally only had knowledge of the first two.

The Terraforming is logic. A million habitable worlds in the Galaxy? No. There arent. There may be billions of planets, but Habitable ones? Millions? Nuhuh.

The source of the Planetary info Numbers are this solar system, which has 6 Solid planets and 3 unterraformables ones, and nearbye solar systems which have a similar makeup, its  a rough estimation I readily admit, but its on the LOW side, so you can't really argue with it.

lol. so they own 2 million planets more? Big deal, we still dont know how many actual planets the Impman has, could be upwards of 50 million from the vague statement "millions of star systems" or it could be as low as ten million if everything was the absilute minimum and "millions" referred to two.

One Battlefleet matches the Death star.
Or several Capital ships. Why put all your eggs into one basket? When it gets killed, as these things usually do, being a huge target, you've lost a huge amount of effectiveness.

I said I was unsure about the Forge world comparison, and asked to be proven wrong, okay, so they have some... how many? The impman has LOTS and LOTS of Forge worlds =D.

And lol at the deep space manufacturing plant thing. Its 250 Metres long. Not gonna make any capital ships any time soon heh.

WHAT non military equipment? Its the wh40k verse! I cannot prove it no, but take a look at this list


ALL the forge worlds listed are notable for a specific military product... it just seems logical that if they produced non military stuff, one would be noted for making Television or something, its a stretch I readily admit, but not a huge one.

Superman is an anomaly. And an Aircraft carrier? Not even  base for comparison. In ship to ship combat, where relative knowledge of exact stats is lost to the mist, the large ship, whith more weapons, shields, mass, crew and power, is inevitably the winner.

Oh, and by that logic I guess a random Nova fighter can take down the death star... oh wait, lets not go there *COUGHLUKECOUGH*
=D, they fixed that right? Please tell me they fixed that >.<.

So its not just what they have, but what they can produce too?
Well then, the imperium of man sets all planets to mass ship production (If they havent already, see previous argument) and starts pumping out the battleships. The argument can't really go that way, or we have the issue of  who can produce what, and its mostly unknown exactly what each side can make. Or even exactly how fast.


The range of Titan plasma guns into ships in orbit is unknown, who's to say it isnt light minutes?

Lol at the excession thing, by your logic size means nothing. Therefore, I can say that Numbers mean nothing because we all know that superman can take down an army. USing your logic would complerely erase the argument. At the very least don't troll.

YOU're the one Claiming the Imperium has better weapons and technology, YOU prove that. We have to go from the knowledge we have, and impman tech seems superior, just because of the efficiency of their shields, go down, cycle back up. 

On the offchance that their huge size DOES NOT correlate shield strength, they can still have upwards of ten shields cycling at any one time, which is efficient.

Size seems to equal shield strength, the Esecutor has more shields than smaller ships, the death star has more shields than the executor, and so forth. Its logic. USE it.

I got ALL the sizes correct.


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## Estrecca (Nov 8, 2008)

Absence said:


> I was rong about the Death star, the DS2 Is pretty large yeah, I didn't know they made a THIRD one 0.o.



The CIS started the construction of the  which was supposed to be the ultimate weapon of the Separatists, but apparently when the Imperials took over they didn't quite understand how everything was supposed to work so they build a partial  that was never finished and eventually was destroyed by a black hole.

There are also some other superlaser equipped ships, like  (superlaser dish without the rest of the beachball of doom) and the Eclipse, an Executor-sized ship with an axial superlaser that can toast continents with a single shot



> They went: Dstar 1: 120km, Death Star 2: 160km, DE Superdeathstar NAMED Death star 2, 900km.
> I personally only had knowledge of the first two.



There are two different sets of figures for the two Death Stars that appear in the movies. The older ones have the DSI (Yavin, seen in ANH) at 120 km in diameter and the DSII (Endor, seen in ROTJ) at 160 km, but newer figures support 160 and 900 km respectively.



> One Battlefleet matches the Death star.
> Or several Capital ships. Why put all your eggs into one basket? When it gets killed, as these things usually do, being a huge target, you've lost a huge amount of effectiveness.



Someone should have told Chaos, because Abbadon sure loves his Planet Killer (which, incidentally, is a lot less powerful than either of the Death Stars).



> The range of Titan plasma guns into ships in orbit is unknown, who's to say it isnt light minutes?



Some weapons ranges have been given in 40k publications. They are consistently stated to be in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers. That's in the low light-second right.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> The CIS started the construction of the  which was supposed to be the ultimate weapon of the Separatists, but apparently when the Imperials took over they didn't quite understand how everything was supposed to work so they build a partial  that was never finished and eventually was destroyed by a black hole.
> 
> There are also some other superlaser equipped ships, like  (superlaser dish without the rest of the beachball of doom) and the Eclipse, an Executor-sized ship with an axial superlaser that can toast continents with a single shot
> 
> ...



Thanks for clearing up the Death star Figures, so at last count there were three produced right? Thats what I understood anyway.

Yes, the Planet killer was kinda weak... but then... you know... we're doing impman vs Galactic Empire, not Chaos vs Galactic empire. 
And Abaddon lost! 
As for the ranges, thats possible yes, but I suspect that there would at the very least be a difference in firepoewer, what with most impman guns being kilometer sized, as opposed to imperial guns when there are thousands of tiny ones. I mean, it may not be a huge issue, as being stabbed with thousands of needles or having a spear shoved through your gut, you're going to die either way. But I think it would mean that shields would last longer for the impman ships, as its stated that you need a huge amount of power all at once to pierce all void shields and actually hurt the ship.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Nov 8, 2008)

right, so I just had to register to respond to this.

So a death Star is equivalent in size, protection and weaponry to a Tau orbital city in Battlefleet Gothic (40K official space battle game).

And it takes two (2) Imperium of Man (Space Marine) battle barges to destroy one of these in the Tau codex fluff.

So,

If there are a handful of Death Stars produced/ in production, how would they fare against the 2,000 SM battle barges in the galaxy? I'll leave you to figure this one out for yourselves. Apparently no IQ at all is required to know the answer, which involves Death Stars being decimated by battle barges on difficulty level: kitten.


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## Estrecca (Nov 8, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> So a death Star is equivalent in size, protection and weaponry to a Tau orbital city in Battlefleet Gothic (40K official space battle game).



Unless this Tau Orbital City happens to be a stolen Blackstone... No. Or rather, hell no. The superlaser weapon is well over a thousand times more powerful than the Chaos Planet Killer which is, in turn, more powerful than any ship in the navy of the Imperium. 



> Apparently no IQ at all is required to know the answer, which involves Death Stars being decimated by battle barges on difficulty level: kitten.



Wank much? The last time that the Imperium went against something resembling the Death Stars (hint: the Necron World Engine) the Imperium fleet got severely curbstomped and only managed to destroy it after the insertion of a large number of Space Marines that disabled shields and engines.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Unless this Tau Orbital City happens to be a stolen Blackstone... No. Or rather, hell no. The superlaser weapon is well over a thousand times more powerful than the Chaos Planet Killer which is, in turn, more powerful than any ship in the navy of the Imperium.
> 
> 
> 
> Wank much? The last time that the Imperium went against something resembling the Death Stars (hint: the Necron World Engine) the Imperium fleet got severely curbstomped and only managed to destroy it after the insertion of a large number of Space Marines that disabled shields and engines.



Figures please. Where's the proof that its a thousand times more powerful?
Necrons are a different matter entirely. A COMPLETELY different matter, don't bring them into this.


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## Estrecca (Nov 8, 2008)

Absence said:


> Figures please. Where's the proof that its a thousand times more powerful?
> Necrons are a different matter entirely. A COMPLETELY different matter, don't bring them into this.



Easy:



			
				Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook said:
			
		

> ?Within [the Planet Killer's] central cavity, we could detect a massive power surge. Energy crackled from a number of ports on the hull. Then, with a blast that blotted the sun from our scanners, it opened fire. *The energy beam lasted for about a half hour*. Emperor knows how they could generate that much energy. We linked in to the planetary surveyors to see what was happening on the surface. That bolt bored its way through miles of the planet's crust and seared through the mantle beneath. As the attack finished, the magma surged forth through this continent-sized wound, breaking apart Savaven from within. The seas boiled into the skies, the ice caps melted and whole continents sunk beneath the tidal wave. With such an unimaginable release of energy Savaven was blown out of her natural orbit and flipped over on her axis. I guess nobody was alive by then, but if they were they didn't last long. Like a rations pack crushed in your fist, Savaven just crumpled in on herself, then broke up into thousands of fragments. There's just an asteroid field there now, really dense, impossible to navigate. There were fourteen billion people living on Savaven. Fourteen billion dead in an hour.?



In other words, the Planet Killer blows a random Earth-like world in about half an hour. The Death Star does it in a matter of seconds and the planet explodes more violently than what is described for the Planet Killer attack. There are exactly 1800 seconds in half an hour. Thus, about a thousand times more powerful is actually the low end for the difference between the DSI and the Chaos PK.


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## MetalHandkerchief (Nov 8, 2008)

Necron technology, although more ancient and "proved", is not a match to even basic Tau tech. Tau is the most technologically advanced of all the WH40K races, even Eldar, and although the Tau doesn't posess anything of the SIZE of a Necron world engine, they certainly can outmatch it with a standard recon force.

And SM did too, when they learned the shields could be disabled by just 1 squad of teleporting terminators.

Why is Necrons brought into this? And why on EARTH would you assume a Necron World engine is roughly or even remotely the same challenge as a death star? A death star is ridicoulously small and defenseless if compared to a NWE....


---


Anyway, if you know WH40K fluff AT ALL, you know the mentality posessed in this fictional universe is enough to defeat ANYTHING the SW universe has to offer, even a billion Jedi's would burn under a planetary purge executed by a single battle barge...

Although this fact reckognition requires brains. You has dem?


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## Wesker (Nov 8, 2008)

That may be true for the Orignal movie universe however the Extended universe of Star Wars is so wanked by the writers that not only are the power levels untrue to the movies but they are overpowered enough that they actually can win this battle. Personally I think half the extended universe stuff was written by swtards thinking OMG HOW CAN I MAKE STAR WARS OWN EVERYTHING?! That being said galactic empire win this battle.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Easy:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, the Planet Killer blows a random Earth-like world in about half an hour. The Death Star does it in a matter of seconds and the planet explodes more violently than what is described for the Planet Killer attack. There are exactly 1800 seconds in half an hour. Thus, about a thousand times more powerful is actually the low end for the difference between the DSI and the Chaos PK.



The Planet Killer is less than half the size of the death star, for the first fact, so we're not talking comparable tech, nor size when we're talking about comparing them, second, its weapon doesnt need to charge up, third, we don't know how the Dstar Laser or the Planet Killer weapon actually affect a planet, the laser could simply have a different way of destroying the planet then burrowing to the core.

God knows exactly WHAT it did, as thats not how planets explode, but who cares, its Scifi.

1000 Times as powerful is completely pulled out of your ass. I readily admit the laser is stronger. But thats what happens when you have a larger platform with a larger power reactor and a charge up time.

Lets not even get into how destroying something faster doesnt mean a linear power scale of exactly time to power, and lets not get into anything about how the Planet killer and Chaos LOST.
Lets just not.

And evne then, so what, why are you repeatedly bringing Chaos into this? Its Impman vs GE.

Chaos isnt even mentioned. Of COURSE Chaos was a real challenge for the Impman fleets, they have comparable numbers, size in general, and similar tech. 

The GE has none of that. So I really don't see your point? The planet killer is stronger than any single Impman ship... PROBABLY. Can't be sure of that really. It has a LOT of escorts.

Its still a case of One large space station that MIGHT be a challenge, and a bunch of puny little weakling ships, versus a ridiculously huge army of Ridiculously Huge ships.
Go figure?

Either one can destroy planets.
In a standoff, if the Dstar laser needs to charge up, and the Planet Killer doesnt, They both have planet killing abilities, the one that fires first wins.

And then if you go on to say that the  laser can fire without charging up, albeit much more weakly, I ask you, how does the weakened version compare to the Plant killer weapon?


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## Gig (Nov 8, 2008)

Absence said:


> The Planet Killer is less than half the size of the death star, for the first fact, so we're not talking comparable tech, nor size when we're talking about comparing them, second, its weapon doesnt need to charge up, third, we don't know how the Dstar Laser or the Planet Killer weapon actually affect a planet, the laser could simply have a different way of destroying the planet then burrowing to the core.



And the sun crushers less than hundredth the size of the planet killer and it can destroy a star


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Gig said:


> And the sun crushers less than hundredth the size of the planet killer and it can destroy a star



So could a meter sized bomb designed the right way. Whats your point?


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## Estrecca (Nov 8, 2008)

Absence said:


> The Planet Killer is less than half the size of the death star, for the first fact, so we're not talking comparable tech, nor size when we're talking about comparing them, second, its weapon doesnt need to charge up, third, we don't know how the Dstar Laser or the Planet Killer weapon actually affect a planet, the laser could simply have a different way of destroying the planet then burrowing to the core.



Actually, the destructive mechanisms of both the Death Star and the Planet Killer appear to work using relatively similar mechanisms. Namely, gather one hell of a lot of energy, put all this energy in a brightly colored laserbeam of doom and fire it against the desired target. Nothing too exotic about that. It is just that the Death Star applies it in a much larger scale.

Regarding scale, the Death Star I is roughly equivalent in volume to twenty four million ISDs and while I don't know the actual volume of the Planet Killer, the Retribution class battleships are around 100-300 times larger than a ISD. Am I wrong to suppose that the PK is considerably larger than the vessels of the Retribution class? 

If it is ten times bigger than the Retribution, the PK is around 1/10000th the size of the Death Star. If it is a hundred times bigger, then it is around one thousandth the volume of the DSI.



> 1000 Times as powerful is completely pulled out of your ass. I readily admit the laser is stronger. But thats what happens when you have a larger platform with a larger power reactor and a charge up time.



1000 times as powerful is a guesstimate. A very _conservative_ one given the violence of the destruction of Alderaan.



> Lets not even get into how destroying something faster doesnt mean a linear power scale of exactly time to power, and lets not get into anything about how the Planet killer and Chaos LOST.



So destroying something faster doesn't mean an increase in power? Wow. This is the first time I hear this "argument".

Oh. And fact remains that the Planet Killer is individually more powerful than any spaceship fielded by the Imperium Navy, excluding the Blackstone Fortresses (that were scavenged Eldar relics in the first place). 



> And evne then, so what, why are you repeatedly bringing Chaos into this? Its Impman vs GE.
> Chaos isnt even mentioned. Of COURSE Chaos was a real challenge for the Impman fleets, they have comparable numbers, size in general, and similar tech.



For comparison. Because Chaos is an organization with a technology level that is equivalent (albeit slightly better) to the Imperium's and despite this the destructive power of the most powerful ship they have ever designed is less than a match for that of the Death Star. 

Oh. And just for the record. The Galactic Empire has better than even numbers. And I am not talking about worlds, but about demographics. There are about thirty thousand hive worlds in the entire IoM and their combined population is around five quadrillions. The Galactic Republic (which was smaller than the Galactic Empire) had around a hundred quadrillion sapient citizens.



> Its still a case of One large space station that MIGHT be a challenge, and a bunch of puny little weakling ships, versus a ridiculously huge army of Ridiculously Huge ships.
> Go figure?



Size is NOT a good indicator of power when comparing different settings. A Mimbari Sharlin or the battlestar Galactica are roughly the size of Star Destroyers. Both would get punked so badly that it isn't even a funny joke.
Either one can destroy planets.



> And then if you go on to say that the  laser can fire without charging up, albeit much more weakly, I ask you, how does the weakened version compare to the Plant killer weapon?



I'd say that the DSII, the one version that demonstrated rapid-fire capabilities with its main weapon, managed to vaporize Calamari cruisers that are roughly the size of IoM destroyers just fine with single shots. Meaning that getting hit by the superlaser in any setting isn't going to be comfortable for the Planet Killer by any stretch of imagination.


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## Estrecca (Nov 8, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief said:


> Necron technology, although more ancient and "proved", is not a match to even basic Tau tech. Tau is the most technologically advanced of all the WH40K races, even Eldar, and although the Tau doesn't posess anything of the SIZE of a Necron world engine, they certainly can outmatch it with a standard recon force.



Wow. Talk about ridiculous.

Sorry, my dear sir. I am better informed than you apparently believe, because your ludicrous Tauwanking has failed to fool my Bullshit Detector (TM). Tau warships are less than a match for IoM warships of equivalent volume, whereas Necron units are fluff-wise about an order of magnitude better than IoM shit.

Five Shroud class Necron light cruisers did something that the Tau couldn't even dream with. Namely, fooling the defenses of Sol long enough to actually land in Mars.



> And SM did too, when they learned the shields could be disabled by just 1 squad of teleporting terminators.



You mean one entire chapter of Space Marines that crashed their battle barge through the shield which didn't teleport, but used drop-pods? One chapter that was eventually wiped out and just managed to hit a command tomb complex in their eleventh hour?



> Why is Necrons brought into this? And why on EARTH would you assume a Necron World engine is roughly or even remotely the same challenge as a death star? A death star is ridicoulously small and defenseless if compared to a NWE....



Why are you saying "a World Engine". It was, as far as we know, an unique vessel. And it is relevant, because the Necrons and Eldar are the only civilizations with technology to deploy vessels as large as the Death Star II. And the apparition of such ships is always the prelude of a major disaster for the IoM.



> Anyway, if you know WH40K fluff AT ALL, you know the mentality posessed in this fictional universe is enough to defeat ANYTHING the SW universe has to offer, even a billion Jedi's would burn under a planetary purge executed by a single battle barge...



So would a billion of Klingons. Or a billion of tribbles. Or a billion of Space Marines. Or a billion of clones of Leman freaking Russ. And so would they die if the bombarding ship is an ISD. Orbital bombardment is the technological equivalent of borrowing God's SMITE button.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Actually, the destructive mechanisms of both the Death Star and the Planet Killer appear to work using relatively similar mechanisms. Namely, gather one hell of a lot of energy, put all this energy in a brightly colored laserbeam of doom and fire it against the desired target. Nothing too exotic about that. It is just that the Death Star applies it in a much larger scale.
> 
> Regarding scale, the Death Star I is roughly equivalent in volume to twenty four million ISDs and while I don't know the actual volume of the Planet Killer, the Retribution class battleships are around 100-300 times larger than a ISD. Am I wrong to suppose that the PK is considerably larger than the vessels of the Retribution class?
> 
> ...



According to the Novel "The wolf pack" The smallest imperial escort class ship is 30km. Its safe to say that the Planet Killer is probably bigger.
The Death stars one and two were 120 and 160km respectively, with the "Death Star II" Being 900km.

Destroying something faster DOESNT always mean there's more power. In this case it does, but a gunshot will destroy a piece of paper faster than a Hurricane will.
But thats besides the point, my argument, is that it doesnt mean a LINEAR increase in power. Ie, 1s is equal to 1n, then 1s is equal to 2n, then 1s is equal to 3n, and so forth.
Im not very good at maths, but thats what I  know.
Could be exponential, could just be twice the power. Who knows.
You certainly don't, and neither do I.

I'd like proof on number of Hive worlds please.
And every single planet in the imperium is required to release a Legion for the imperial guard once a decade, a legion of millions. Multiply that by EVERY planet the Impman forces own.

Calmari Cruisers are 1.2km long. Imperial Escort ships are 30km long.
Please, explain to me how 1.2km is larger than 30km.
Size is a VERY good indication of power in civilisations with comparable tech. Larger means more crew, more space for weaponry, more space for shielding, more space for armour.
Smaller means less.
You can't compare the BSG or Sharlins to Impman or GE tech, neither even have shields.
I have no doubt that the planet killer wouldnt enjoy getting shot by the DStar, I doubt anyone would , but they are a real threat to one another.


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## Han Solo (Nov 8, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Regarding scale, the Death Star I is roughly equivalent in volume to twenty four million ISDs



...

If an ISD can slag a planet in an hour, why the fuck didn't they just make an extra million ISD's instead.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 8, 2008)

Because the Emperor likes his superweapons.  That and ISDs aren't enough to get through planetary shields in a reasonable amount of time.


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## Sengoku (Nov 8, 2008)

MetalHandkerchief:


The Necrons are more advanced than the Taus due to experience. The Taus are the youngest race afterall.

Now if you were to compare them like 40,000 years of Necron tech vs 40,000 years of Tau tech, I would say Tau's tech is more advanced.


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## Fang (Nov 8, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> I couldn't remember off the top of my head whether it was 800 or 900, so I used the conservative one



It was over 900 kilometers in diameter because of scaling with the Executor against its hemisphere was like the size of a X-Wing next to a ISD.


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## Ork (Nov 8, 2008)

TWF said:


> It was over 900 kilometers in diameter because of scaling with the Executor against its hemisphere was like the size of a X-Wing next to a ISD.



I was pretty sure it was exactly 900 km, thats what I heard.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 9, 2008)

Absence said:


> @ Endless mike: Read my post, I said that Ki in ranma and Ki in DBZ have exactly the same effects, increasing power and speed and allowing energy blasts.
> And I was constantly saying the void shields are BETTER than their GE counterparts.
> They have the same effects in that they stop weapons on an invisible energy shield that prevernts damage to the hull. None of us know the specifics so you have to assume.



So you just assume something that works against one type of technology will work against a completely different technology based on completely different principles?



> Light hawk wings are a completely different thing, they arent a ship bourne shield. Theyre some sort of semi mystical ultimate power reality warping godshield thing.



Except they are carried on ships. So, wrong again. 



> And no, the second Death star was 160km.



No it wasn't.


> They went: Dstar 1: 120km, Death Star 2: 160km, DE Superdeathstar NAMED Death star 2, 900km.



Um, no. The first Death Star was the one in Episode IV. It was 160 km. The second Death Star was the one in Episode VI. It was 900 km. This is confirmed by scaling in the movies, the statements of the people who made the models for the movies, and many canon sources.



The official Star Wars website has it at 900km.



> The Terraforming is logic. A million habitable worlds in the Galaxy? No. There arent. There may be billions of planets, but Habitable ones? Millions? Nuhuh.



What? Complete non-sequitur. I have no idea what you are trying to say.



> The source of the Planetary info Numbers are this solar system, which has 6 Solid planets and 3 unterraformables ones, and nearbye solar systems which have a similar makeup, its  a rough estimation I readily admit, but its on the LOW side, so you can't really argue with it.



Yes I can, since you have not provided any evidence of wide-scale IoM terraforming projects.

I might as well say that since SW tech can build giant space stations, then they have them in millions of systems and each of them hold as many people as 1000 planets.



> lol. so they own 2 million planets more? Big deal, we still dont know how many actual planets the Impman has, could be upwards of 50 million from the vague statement "millions of star systems" or it could be as low as ten million if everything was the absilute minimum and "millions" referred to two.



So all you have is speculation. Got it.



> One Battlefleet matches the Death star.
> Or several Capital ships. Why put all your eggs into one basket? When it gets killed, as these things usually do, being a huge target, you've lost a huge amount of effectiveness.



Prove it. Show me one battlefleet doing as much damage as the Death Star in as short of a period of time.

BTW the 1st Death Star was only destroyed because the Rebels knew its weakness from the plans they had stolen, and Tarkin underestimated the rebels and didn't send out his fighter squadrons, and Luke had the Force to help him. The second one was only destroyed before it was completed, since it would have been effectively unstoppable had it been completed because it had none of the 1st one's weaknesses.



> I said I was unsure about the Forge world comparison, and asked to be proven wrong, okay, so they have some... how many? The impman has LOTS and LOTS of Forge worlds





Keep in mind these are all dedicated facilities for the construction and repair of starships.



> And lol at the deep space manufacturing plant thing. Its 250 Metres long. Not gonna make any capital ships any time soon heh.



Really? You do realize that there are many capital ships that size or smaller that are still very effective, as well as the ability to produce fighters, bombers, missiles, and other weapons. And there are *a lot* of these plants.



> WHAT non military equipment? Its the wh40k verse! I cannot prove it no, but take a look at this list



Dwellings, food processing equipment, computer systems, waste disposal devices and junkyards, transportation - you know, basically all the stuff that a mature space-faring civilization needs to survive.



> *snip*
> ALL the forge worlds listed are notable for a specific military product... it just seems logical that if they produced non military stuff, one would be noted for making Television or something, its a stretch I readily admit, but not a huge one.



Because each one can only produce one product, right?

Where do you think all of the non-military stuff comes from?



> Superman is an anomaly. And an Aircraft carrier? Not even  base for comparison. In ship to ship combat, where relative knowledge of exact stats is lost to the mist, the large ship, whith more weapons, shields, mass, crew and power, is inevitably the winner.



Except that while 40K ships may be larger, they don't necessarily have better weapons and shields or more power. I've already quoted figures for GE ships power generation capabilities - you have yet to post any of your own figures for a comparison.



> Oh, and by that logic I guess a random Nova fighter can take down the death star... oh wait, lets not go there *COUGHLUKECOUGH*
> =D, they fixed that right? Please tell me they fixed that >.<.



What?



> So its not just what they have, but what they can produce too?
> Well then, the imperium of man sets all planets to mass ship production (If they havent already, see previous argument) and starts pumping out the battleships. The argument can't really go that way, or we have the issue of  who can produce what, and its mostly unknown exactly what each side can make. Or even exactly how fast.



And the Empire builds a million Sun Crushers. Trust me, you don't want to go down this road.

We know the Empire can create a 900km artificial moon with a mass equivalent of billions of star destroyers in less than 2 years. That really says it all.

Also, you're still ignoring the mobility advantage. The Imperial fleets can be anywhere in the 40K galaxy in hours, laying seige to and destroying all of the IoM's military assets, while the IoM fleets will be stuck trying to navigate the Warp, which could take months to get where they want to go.


> The range of Titan plasma guns into ships in orbit is unknown, who's to say it isnt light minutes?


The full power of the Death Star is unknown, who's to say it couldn't blow away the whole fucking 40K galaxy?



> Lol at the excession thing, by your logic size means nothing. Therefore, I can say that Numbers mean nothing because we all know that superman can take down an army. USing your logic would complerely erase the argument. At the very least don't troll.


 I'm saying that size isn't the only factor to consider. If a smaller combatant is faster, more powerful, more durable, etc. than a larger one, the smaller one will win, whereas you're simply saying that size is the be-all, end-all of a fight.


> YOU're the one Claiming the Imperium has better weapons and technology, YOU prove that.



1e24 watt power generation for an outdated Venator.

16 petatons energy dissipation/second for an outdated Acclamator troop transport.

Executor's shields holding against the impacts of 3 ISDs at relativistic speeds

Executor producing more power than a star.

Death Star (speaks for itself).

Sun Crusher

Galaxy Gun

Hyperdrive that crosses the galaxy in hours

World Devastators that chew up planets and increase their own mass while mass - producing starships, fighters, and weapons.

I could go on.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 9, 2008)

> We have to go from the knowledge we have, and impman tech seems superior, just because of the efficiency of their shields, go down, cycle back up.
> 
> On the offchance that their huge size DOES NOT correlate shield strength, they can still have upwards of ten shields cycling at any one time, which is efficient.



Which is completely irrelevant without a power comparison.

Tell me - which of the following shields would be more effective?

A shield with 100 layers that can dissipate 1000 watts each, or a shield with 1 layer that can dissipate 1,000,000 watts?

Note that you actually have to use math to answer this question, so be careful not to strain yourself.



> Size seems to equal shield strength, the Esecutor has more shields than smaller ships, the death star has more shields than the executor, and so forth. Its logic. USE it.



Yes, logic that applies to the scaling of Star Wars technology, yet 40K uses completely different technology. You're automatically going with your "bigger is better, regardless of different technology" idiocy.

Hell, shields scale with size in the Culture universe too - but a 200 - meter ROU can fly through a supernova without damage, making its shields way better than those of much larger ships in Star Wars or 40K. Assuming that the scale is exactly the same for two different universes (especially when actual evidence proves this to be incorrect) is just plain wrong.



> I got ALL the sizes correct.



No you didn't.



Absence said:


> Thanks for clearing up the Death star Figures, so at last count there were three produced right? Thats what I understood anyway.



Yes, if you count the prototype.



> Yes, the Planet killer was kinda weak... but then... you know... we're doing impman vs Galactic Empire, not Chaos vs Galactic empire.
> And Abaddon lost!



But his planetkiller was superior to the IoM forces, and it was only defeated because it was slow (whereas the Death Star is equipped with a hyperdrive, so it can strike any IoM world in the galaxy within hours, and then warp out)

Not to mention the planet killer itself was much smaller and less durable than the Death Star, so it was easier to destroy.



> As for the ranges, thats possible yes, but I suspect that there would at the very least be a difference in firepoewer, what with most impman guns being kilometer sized, as opposed to imperial guns when there are thousands of tiny ones. I mean, it may not be a huge issue, as being stabbed with thousands of needles or having a spear shoved through your gut, you're going to die either way.



Again with the "bigger automatically equals better" rhetoric. Heavy turbolasers, despite being physically smaller, are at least equal in firepower to heavy IoM weapons like Nova cannons.

The difference is that the GE ships have more of them.

Hey, you know the Exterminatus? That requires a full fleet of IoM ships. A single Star Destroyer can do it in an hour. It's called a Base Delta Zero - look it up.



> But I think it would mean that shields would last longer for the impman ships, as its stated that you need a huge amount of power all at once to pierce all void shields and actually hurt the ship.



Which the GE has and can deliver.



Keeper of Seven Keys said:


> That may be true for the Orignal movie universe however the Extended universe of Star Wars is so wanked by the writers that not only are the power levels untrue to the movies but they are overpowered enough that they actually can win this battle. Personally I think half the extended universe stuff was written by swtards thinking OMG HOW CAN I MAKE STAR WARS OWN EVERYTHING?! That being said galactic empire win this battle.



Have you ever heard of EU Minimalism? Much of the stuff in the EU is way, way below what is shown in the movies. For example, one of the books said that building the Executor nearly bankrupted the Empire (which we know isn't true since they had multiple SSDs and they built the much larger Death Stars in secret).

One long - standing dispute is because one writer said that the Rebublic Army had only 3 million clones, which is nowhere near enough to fight a war across the entire galaxy.

Now some stuff in the EU is wank, like the Sun Crusher, Galaxy Gun, and the really uber Force users (Darth Nihilus, Rokur Gepta, Reborn Palpatine, Lord Kaan, etc.)

But most of it is pretty consistently based.



> Chaos isnt even mentioned. Of COURSE Chaos was a real challenge for the Impman fleets, they have comparable numbers, size in general, and similar tech.
> 
> The GE has none of that.



They have superior numbers and superior tech.



> So I really don't see your point? The planet killer is stronger than any single Impman ship... PROBABLY. Can't be sure of that really. It has a LOT of escorts.
> 
> Its still a case of One large space station that MIGHT be a challenge, and a bunch of puny little weakling ships, versus a ridiculously huge army of Ridiculously Huge ships.
> Go figure?



These "puny little weakling ships" can reduce the crust of a planet to molten slag in under an hour.



> Either one can destroy planets.
> In a standoff, if the Dstar laser needs to charge up, and the Planet Killer doesnt, They both have planet killing abilities, the one that fires first wins.



Except the Death Star has much more accuracy (see ROTJ when it hit the Rebel cruisers) and it has shields strong enough to survive the explosion of a nearby planet unscathed (Episode IV), which should be enough to hold for a bit against the planetkiller's weaker beam, at least enough to blow it out of space.



> And then if you go on to say that the  laser can fire without charging up, albeit much more weakly, I ask you, how does the weakened version compare to the Plant killer weapon?



Enough to one - shot ships comparable to Star Destroyers that have shields that can dissipate petatons of energy per second.



Absence said:


> According to the Novel "The wolf pack" The smallest imperial escort class ship is 30km. Its safe to say that the Planet Killer is probably bigger.
> The Death stars one and two were 120 and 160km respectively, with the "Death Star II" Being 900km.



Wrong, as pointed out before.



> Destroying something faster DOESNT always mean there's more power. In this case it does, but a gunshot will destroy a piece of paper faster than a Hurricane will.



Absolutely retarded analogy. A hurrican is a huge system that destroys things in an absolutely massive radius. If all of the power of a hurricane was focused onto a piece of paper it would destroy it way faster than a bullet could.

This analogy would possibly be applicable if the planetkiller's weapon was some kind of huge AoE weapon that destroyed the entire solar system or more, but in this case, it's the same thing: A beam of energy fired at a planet.



> But thats besides the point, my argument, is that it doesnt mean a LINEAR increase in power. Ie, 1s is equal to 1n, then 1s is equal to 2n, then 1s is equal to 3n, and so forth.
> Im not very good at maths, but thats what I  know.
> Could be exponential, could just be twice the power. Who knows.
> You certainly don't, and neither do I.



We do know, since it is a direct transfer of energy (in fact, calced at some 1e38j).

Stop with the arguments from ignorance please.



> I'd like proof on number of Hive worlds please.
> And every single planet in the imperium is required to release a Legion for the imperial guard once a decade, a legion of millions. Multiply that by EVERY planet the Impman forces own.



The Seperatist army was able to field *quintillions* of droids in the Clone Wars.



> Calmari Cruisers are 1.2km long. Imperial Escort ships are 30km long.
> Please, explain to me how 1.2km is larger than 30km.



Why does it have to be larger to win?



> Size is a VERY good indication of power in civilisations with comparable tech.



Except their tech is not exactly comparable.

It's closer to compare Star Wars tech to 40K tech than to compare it to Star Trek or the Culture, but you're assuming they are exactly the same.



> Larger means more crew, more space for weaponry, more space for shielding, more space for armour.
> Smaller means less.



Which is meaningless when the other side has more powerful, compact weaponry and shields.



> You can't compare the BSG or Sharlins to Impman or GE tech, neither even have shields.
> I have no doubt that the planet killer wouldnt enjoy getting shot by the DStar, I doubt anyone would , but they are a real threat to one another.



Why not compare the actual known power outputs and feats of the ships, instead of focusing on size?

Wait, I know why not - because you know you'll lose if you do.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

Sorry mike, I'll argue with anyone except you, its just not worth it with you, you can't win an argument so you go after people. I'd rather be playing WAR than having to write essays to prove you wrong AGAIN and AGAIN, just to have you ignore valid points and start frothing at the mouth.

Shh.


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## Gig (Nov 9, 2008)

> One Battlefleet matches the Death star.
> Or several Capital ships. Why put all your eggs into one basket? When it gets killed, as these things usually do, being a huge target, you've lost a huge amount of effectiveness.



For 1 one battlefleet doe's not match the death star as one of the imperial officers stated the death star is the ultimate power not even the entire imperial fleet could match it in open battle  

Because highly developed planets that where immensely rich around the level of Coruscant had planetary shielding which could withstand the bombardment that ISDs could give out the death star was meant to be mainly a weapon of fear since it could blast though any shield and then cripple or destroy the planet depending on the lasers power setting the idea was that once the rest of the galaxy found out what happened to planet A they would fall in line.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 9, 2008)

Absence said:


> Sorry mike, I'll argue with anyone except you, its just not worth it with you, you can't win an argument so you go after people. I'd rather be playing WAR than having to write essays to prove you wrong AGAIN and AGAIN, just to have you ignore valid points and start frothing at the mouth.
> 
> Shh.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

Gig said:


> For 1 one battlefleet doe's not match the death star as one of the imperial officers stated the death star is the ultimate power not even the entire imperial fleet could match it in open battle
> 
> Because highly developed planets that where immensely rich around the level of Coruscant had planetary shielding which could withstand the bombardment that ISDs could give out the death star was meant to be mainly a weapon of fear since it could blast though any shield and then cripple or destroy the planet depending on the lasers power setting the idea was that once the rest of the galaxy found out what happened to planet A they would fall in line.



Its the Ultimate IMPERIAL power true, but Impman is a different kettle of fish all together, they annihilate planets regularly for having An infestation of cultists or for being Heretical.
Hell, Warmaster Horus, before he went evil, killed an entire planet to kill ONE fugitive.

Terror weapons don't work on a race who's every living moment is either fear or hate.


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## Sengoku (Nov 9, 2008)

So there it is.
IOM wins on land and GE wins space. 

Endless Mike, I have a question! Would it be fair if you include all of the factions from WH40k vs GE? Or does GE need to have some other faction to help them to make it more even? If so, what is it and which side do you think would win?

Thanks in advance.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

Sengoku said:


> So there it is.
> IOM wins on land and GE wins space.
> 
> Endless Mike, I have a question! Would it be fair if you include all of the factions from WH40k vs GE? Or does GE need to have some other faction to help them to make it more even? If so, what is it and which side do you think would win?
> ...



I'm still of the opinion that IOM wins in both cases. But this is star wars fans versus wh40k fans, and both are rabid and fanatical, so this isnt getting resolved anytime soon.


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## Han Solo (Nov 9, 2008)

Sengoku said:


> So there it is.
> IOM wins on land and GE wins space.
> 
> Endless Mike, I have a question! Would it be fair if you include all of the factions from WH40k vs GE? Or does GE need to have some other faction to help them to make it more even? If so, what is it and which side do you think would win?
> ...



If I'm remembering this right, recent fluff said the Tyranids consumed 15 galaxies before the milky way.

That's quite insane.

I am however going off what someone told me, and not what I know for sure.


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## Sengoku (Nov 9, 2008)

Off topic: I'm somewhat glad that the Chaos Daemons are now their own army!
Imagine fights between the Daemons, Tyranids, and Orks !!!


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

Tyranids are being held off by an Empire that is stagnating technologically with steam powered capital ship heavy weapons and land armor.


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## Coteaz (Nov 9, 2008)

TWF said:


> Tyranids are being held off by an Empire that is stagnating technologically with steam powered capital ship heavy weapons and land armor.


There have been three Hive Fleets so far. It has been hinted that those were basically tiny splinter fleets of the actual Tyranid swarm.

Plus, Games Workshop will never have any faction 'win'...because then, they would have no income.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 9, 2008)

Which leads us to believe that the fifteen galaxies before this were weaksauce?


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

Thats true TWF, but if steam in the wh40k verse supplies enough energy to create planet killing weapons, I'd use it too. And "Land Armour" is a bit of a misnomer.
Titans are Around 50-100 Meters tall, and are capable of blasting ships out of Orbit.
The Second most powerful weapon the IOM owns is Mounted on the Emperor Titan.

So saying thats its an obsolete way of conquering a planet is silly. It sure isnt.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

No it doesn't. The Imperium of Man is a backwards technologically stagnating Empire that loses more territory and men then anyone else.

Also what the hell are you even talking about.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

Coteaz said:


> There have been three Hive Fleets so far. It has been hinted that those were basically tiny splinter fleets of the actual Tyranid swarm.
> 
> Plus, Games Workshop will never have any faction 'win'...because then, they would have no income.



That isn't a valid reason at all.


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## Han Solo (Nov 9, 2008)

Actually, didn't the Imperium have to upload a virus which was complete PNJ to stop one of the hive fleets?

And they also sent half of a fleet into an Ork Warlord's camp because they couldn't deal with them.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

TWF said:


> No it doesn't. The Imperium of Man is a backwards technologically stagnating Empire that loses more territory and men then anyone else.
> 
> Also what the hell are you even talking about.



You said its a backwards tech empire, that uses steam on capital ships.

Those same capital ships are capable of planet killing. Not busting, but killing every living thing on the surface.

If steam can do that, I'd use it too. 

Of COURSE they lose more territory and men than anyone else!

HAVENT YOU SEEN THE UNIVERSE THEY LIVE IN?!
EVERYTHING, and I do mean EVERYTHING is hostile, not "Haha I'll kill you hostile" But Batshit fucking crazy I want to eat your babies and destroy you completely and shit down the stump of your neck after I rip off your head hostile.

And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM is of comparable size and resources to the IOM. Or more technologically advanced, as is the case with the Eldar and Necrons who are billions of years older. 

The fact that Humanity still exists in the wh40k verse is a freaking feat all on its own


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

Absence said:


> You said its a backwards tech empire, that uses steam on capital ships.
> 
> Those same capital ships are capable of planet killing. Not busting, but killing every living thing on the surface.
> 
> ...



I have no idea of what your talking about.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 9, 2008)

Basically, if steam powered ships allows them to even go into space, he would use steam technology too.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

No, as in steam power tanks and weapons systems operating on black powder technology from being similar to 19th century industrial age.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

TWF said:


> Tyranids are being held off by an Empire that is stagnating technologically with steam powered capital ship heavy weapons and land armor.




It says right there, "Steam Powered capital ship heavy weapons"
Lol at not reading your own posts.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

Someone needs to read my post again. Looks like they're missing the term "context". So please tell me about this all powerful Imperium of Man which goes from nearly GE level technology to black powder industrial age one's weaker and inferior then our own in this day and age.

Hurr hurr.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

TWF said:


> Someone needs to read my post again. Looks like they're missing the term "context". So please tell me about this all powerful Imperium of Man which goes from nearly GE level technology to black powder industrial age one's weaker and inferior then our own in this day and age.
> 
> Hurr hurr.



The post is impossible to misunderstand. You said Impman Capital ship heavy weapons are powered by steam.
Don't try and obfuscate. Its blatantly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. 
Yes, I agree, you DO sound stupid, Laughing stupidly doesnt help your case.

All poweful? They get their ass kicked by their own enemies regularly.
The difference is, Their usualy enemies arent a tenth their size most of the time. Nor are they semi pacifistic weaklings, which frankly, is what the imperials are to the IOM, or any of their enemies.

A tenth is an exaggeration, but you get my point.


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

What the hell are you talking about at all?


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

TWF said:


> What the hell are you talking about at all?



Not very good at reading, are you?


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## Fang (Nov 9, 2008)

:snorlax: to your entire post.


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## Cy (Nov 9, 2008)

Verdict? Both sides seem to have their tards...

Going off of BFG and the starwars wiki and stuff, both sides have their ships capable of moving tens of thousands of kilometers per hour as their combat speed and have weapons with ranges of at least hundreds of thousands of kilometers (don't bother bringing up the light minutes thing- GE weapons fire far below the speed of light so it would take years to hit their target at those ranges- I'm willing to bet their combat ranges are closer the the IOM ranges). IOM has powerful shields- they can tank novacannons which are powerful enough that thier blast radius is a couple thousand kilometers (the core blast is only around 1K Km or so though), which can probably break through the shields of SSDs and stuff fairly easily. However, the current sizes for ships are around 2Km for escorts and around 10Km for battleships, and cruisers are somewhere between that. 

Honestly, I think that SDs are probably about on the same scale of power as an escort or a light cruiser and an SSD is probably about equivelent to a battleship. SDs and SSDs seem to have much more easily destroyed shields (going off of return of the Jedi when a couple of x-wings blew up the SSD shield generator and took out the bridge) than people claim, and people are also not mentioning how IOM shields explode into dense clouds several thousand kilometers wide when they're taken down (once again, a BFG thing). I'm not arguing that the IOM would win-> the IOM has a couple million planets at various levels of tech ranging from stoneage to stuff easily on the scale of stuff in SW while the GE has 12 million planets (probably at least twice as many planets) with the average level of technology being much, much higher. The GE can make ships a lot faster, so even if light cruisers are equivalent to SDs the IOM would be overrun. The GE would take casulties well into the tens of thousands of ships (note- the IOM has tens of thousands of SD class or larger ships), but at the same time could be making hundreds of thousands or millions. The casulties the GE would be taking could be remade like it were nothing. 

If it seems like I'm looking down the the GE, its mostly because I see the origional movies as more cannon than any books, and a lot of the stuff you guys are hyping up weren't that impressive at all. It seems like the SWtards have a general lack of knowledge of a lot of 40K stuff and a lot of 40Ktards have a general lack of knowledge of SW stuff. While SW would win in the end and take significant losses, its nothing they wouldn't be able to recover from in a couple of years. On the other hand, stop underestimating the IOM... Its tech is better than people seem to think. 

Two more things to just add on before I finish this post: 1) teleporters can't go through void shields. Even if teleporters could go through SW shields and IOM stuff was significantly better, the SW guys will be much better and faster at cannibalizing IOM technology (and possibly even improving it) than the IOM will with SW tech. That means that SW ships would soon carry void shields in addition to normal shields, negating the teleporting advantage along with the shield advantage. And we'd also be seeing SDs with improved nova cannons... and this also leads to point 2) IOM shields only work against objects moving at a minimum speed. Anything moving at less than that speed will ignore the void shields. The GE will kill something, analyse it, steal void shields to stop teleporting, and likely figure out that there's a min speed required for the shields to stop something and create powerful weapons that move under that speed, not that the IOM would win even if the GE didn't discover anything about IOM tech even if just due to much larger numbers of equivelent ships.


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## Ork (Nov 9, 2008)

Cy said:


> However, the current sizes for ships are around 2Km for escorts and around 10Km for battleships, and cruisers are somewhere between that.



Some Sources say that IOM ships are not 30km+, true, but then, We're allowed to use any cannon right? And the warhammer novels are cannon.
So 30km for this argument, is the size of an escort.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 10, 2008)

Absence said:


> Some Sources say that IOM ships are not 30km+, true, but then, We're allowed to use any cannon right? And the warhammer novels are cannon.
> So 30km for this argument, is the size of an escort.



I didn't say any canon. I said the current version. The IOM as they are right now.


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## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> I didn't say any canon. I said the current version. The IOM as they are right now.



And how do you decide when "Right now" is in a game where there's no apparent linear timeline in most cases? The only timeline we have details when battles occurred and when primarchs were born, actual fights can occur at any point in this timeline, you can play as chapters of extinct space marines, you can play in any battle you like.
So when is "Right now"?
 Right now, warhammer 40k ships are whatever size fans and books decide, as there are no "official" sizes given anywhere except Black library literature, the rest of them all all fan conjecture, but some books disagree, there are some that say they're small, at 2k as escort size, up to 8k as battleship, and some that say they're 30k for an escort, and more for others. 



As the thread op, its your decision which sizes to use in this case I'd imagine.


I'd also like to point out that as the op said the empire is Pre battle of Endor, a lot of the Superweapons and monster ships and such that various GEwankers have been flaunting havent been built yet.


If you want to know when the timeline that we have ends... its sometime after the Thirteenth Black Crusade I think, but that still doesnt have any impact on ship sizes. 

OP needs to decide I guess, if not all cannon is available, as in this case, ship size has nothing to do with time, as contradiciting canon sources claim that ships are different sizes in the same period of time.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 10, 2008)

*sigh*

The most current version is one that was most recently published. Scratch that, the current version is ALWAYS the version that was most recently published.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> *sigh*
> 
> The most current version is one that was most recently published. Scratch that, the current version is ALWAYS the version that was most recently published.



Its a huge mishmash of contradictory sizes though, gonna take some real footwork to find out which book that mentions ship sizes was the most recently published one, I've only read two, and TWP which has Escort sizes at 30k was the more recent of the two.

I suspect to find out for sure you'd have to read every single book in the Black Library.

So again, please decide which size.

No need to be patronising, it was a legitimate question.

Also, its a situation of game time versus real time, the latest novel published could be referring to a time 400 years before a novel published earlier, which is the most current?

YOur use of the battle of Endor as the ending point for GE led me to believe you were talking about gametime which is nebulous.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

You still have yet to post any direct data on the size of the Imperium of Man's Empire's size. So that bullshit about the IoM being larger or having a larger industrial base then the Galactic Empire's is just going to be ignored until you do.


----------



## Art of Run (Nov 10, 2008)

Hasn't OBD had this thread, oh I don't know, about thirty times now?


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 10, 2008)

Actually no, surprisingly enough. There have been some threads where sections of the Imperium fought an Imperial Fleet, but never the IOM vs GE specifically.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 10, 2008)

IoM hasn't fought a massive intergalactic war in a long time.  Certainly nothing absolutely huge on a naval scale in a long long time.  Right now, in terms of space superiority, they've got a lock so long as areas of space aren't cut off by warpstorms.  Thus while it may take hundreds of years to build a battleship, they also aren't in high demand.

Especially since battleships last for thousands of years.  Star Wars ships aren't nearly so rugged and ageless.  Hell, 50 years adrift left Katana Fleet Dreadnaughts in need of serious overhauls.

So the fact they don't need lots of battleships, that battleships are a long term investment, kind of makes up for the fact they spend a long time building them.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

Wesley said:


> IoM hasn't fought a massive intergalactic war in a long time.  Certainly nothing absolutely huge on a naval scale in a long long time.  Right now, in terms of space superiority, they've got a lock so long as areas of space aren't cut off by warpstorms.  Thus while it may take hundreds of years to build a battleship, they also aren't in high demand.
> 
> Especially since battleships last for thousands of years.  Star Wars ships aren't nearly so rugged and ageless.  Hell, 50 years adrift left Katana Fleet Dreadnaughts in need of serious overhauls.
> 
> So the fact they don't need lots of battleships, that battleships are a long term investment, kind of makes up for the fact they spend a long time building them.



This is truth.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Wesley said:


> IoM hasn't fought a massive intergalactic war in a long time.  Certainly nothing absolutely huge on a naval scale in a long long time.  Right now, in terms of space superiority, they've got a lock so long as areas of space aren't cut off by warpstorms.  Thus while it may take hundreds of years to build a battleship, they also aren't in high demand.
> 
> Especially since battleships last for thousands of years.  Star Wars ships aren't nearly so rugged and ageless.  Hell, 50 years adrift left Katana Fleet Dreadnaughts in need of serious overhauls.
> 
> So the fact they don't need lots of battleships, that battleships are a long term investment, kind of makes up for the fact they spend a long time building them.



Wrong again. The Katana fleet only needed retro-fitting on its slave chips to remotely control them and sensor and shield packaging up dates.  Not too mention the IoM ships are literally millions of times slower traveling through the Warp without direct control over it and burdened by its weather and turbulences then GE ships with Hyperspace.

And their weapons systems are inferior. Stop wanking them.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 10, 2008)

The Katana Fleet's sublight engines were shot, save one, their turbolasers were defunct and could only afford to be fired once before being fried.  Life support worked, but that's about it.  Star Wars ships do not age without regular maintenance.

And they aren't millions of times faster.  The Warp is somewhat random, but generally speaking they're at the most hundreds of times slower than the fastest Hyperdrive.

And their weapons really are as powerful as people claim.  It's not wank.  Unlike Star Wars only having the ICS to speak of as a high end source.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Wesley said:


> The Katana Fleet's sublight engines were shot, save one, their turbolasers were defunct and could only afford to be fired once before being fried.  Life support worked, but that's about it.  Star Wars ships do not age without regular maintenance.



Which was due to the fact that most of the droid repair units were already down and they were in a nebula known for fucking up ships. Hurr hurr.



> And they aren't millions of times faster.  The Warp is somewhat random, but generally speaking they're at the most hundreds of times slower than the fastest Hyperdrive.



Blatant bullshit detector of mine is going off now. It takes Imperium of Man fleets months to traverse from one solar system to another at most only a few dozen or so light-years away where is hyperspace equipped ships can cover hundreds of light years in mere hours or at most day or two's time.

Try again. 



> And their weapons really are as powerful as people claim.  It's not wank.  Unlike Star Wars only having the ICS to speak of as a high end source.



A single ISD can BDZ a planet in under an hour. Yeah no.

On panel shownings from comics, and novels and films also prove it as well. Like tossing casual turbolasers that burn through hundred meters thick nickel-iron asterioids like its nothing, state vaporizing blasts, shields great enough to survive reversion while still in pseudo-motion from lightspeed to bounce off each other's shields.

And even typically your average cruiser or frigate in the IoM is lucky if it has one slow targeting Nova Cannon. So no again.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Which was due to the fact that most of the droid repair units were already down and they were in a nebula known for fucking up ships. Hurr hurr.



Quote the Nebula and driods were active and maintaining the fleet.  Who cleared away the bodies?  The driods.



> Blatant bullshit detector of mine is going off now. It takes Imperium of Man fleets months to traverse from one solar system to another at most only a few dozen or so light-years away where is hyperspace equipped ships can cover hundreds of light years in mere hours or at most day or two's time.
> 
> Try again.



It doesn't take months to cover a few light-years in general.



> A single ISD can BDZ a planet in under an hour. Yeah no.



Never happened on film.  Never happens in most literature.



> On panel shownings from comics, and novels and films also prove it as well. Like tossing casual turbolasers that burn through hundred meters thick nickel-iron asterioids like its nothing, state vaporizing blasts, shields great enough to survive reversion while still in pseudo-motion from lightspeed to bounce off each other's shields.



Great.  Too bad there's lots of things that contradict that, and G-Canon never supports such things.



> And even typically your average cruiser or frigate in the IoM is lucky if it has one slow targeting Nova Cannon. So no again.



Nova Cannon aren't the primary ship-to-ship weapon.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Quote the Nebula and driods were active and maintaining the fleet.  Who cleared away the bodies?  The driods.



Post that excerpt of the droids being capable of repairing the main systems of the Dreadnoughts.

Waiting for you.



> It doesn't take months to cover a few light-years in general.



In the IoM it does.



> Never happened on film.  Never happens in most literature.



Except that Lucas Films accepted a certain scientists's calculations from on film shownings and from elements of EU. Which in turn was the foundation of the ICS. And not only do that stat books remain canon, so to do its shownings.

Try again.



> Great.  Too bad there's lots of things that contradict that, and G-Canon never supports such things.



Except that it doesn't contradict G-Canon at all. Like instantly and completely vaporizing hundred+ meter nickel iron asterioids, and the fact that those turbolasers firepower has been quantified several times.

So try again once more.



> Nova Cannon aren't the primary ship-to-ship weapon.



Yeah, its a pity that slave labor and navy gang ratings trudging steam powered guns are.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

The only thing I see IOM losing to GE on is speed.
They have bigger ships, more efficient sihelds, 
more powerful weapons,
better ground force, a larger standing army,
they're a LOT more psychotic, which is an advantage 
and a disadvantage really.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Except for the fact that shields on Star Destroyers can hold their own against three millions of metric ton warships slamming into them at near lightspeed velocities.

Would really love to see IoM shields hold off petatons or gigatons of fire power or survive such rammings. Much less a single IoM ship BDZing a world on its own without an entire fleet backing it up.

And your entirely retarded size analogy is still failing. And I'm still waiting for direct canon sources on the IoM size and industrial base.

Which you still haven't provided.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Except for the fact that shields on Star Destroyers can hold their own against three millions of metric ton warships slamming into them at near lightspeed velocities.
> 
> Would really love to see IoM shields hold off petatons or gigatons of fire power or survive such rammings. Much less a single IoM ship BDZing a world on its own without an entire fleet backing it up.
> 
> ...



All those points have been countered already previously. 
Either read previous posts or stop posting.

Did you know the Imperial navy has a gun CALLED a Planet Buster 
I just thought that was funny when I was doing my research. Its mountable on any Battleships, but found most commonly on Retribution Class battleships.

here's some info on the Nova cannon:

"The recoil generated by such a high energy release practically prohibits vessels from mounting nova cannons on turrets, or on smaller ships. Thus, they are nearly always fired in a fixed forward arc, where the powerful ships engines can compensate for the reverse motion of the projectile. 
The ammunition fired by the nova cannon is a specially prepared imploding charge, timed to detonate after it achieves a set distance from the vessel that fired it. The distance is calculated by the ship's weapons officer. Though the high speed of the projectile prevents detonation at short ranges, as it will have already obtained such a high distance in a very short space of time."

Nova cannons fire bigass bombs at lightspeed at things.
Impman shields regularly resist Nova cannons.

Lets not even get into the whole issue with the OTHER weapons on imperial ships. Lances, Torpedoes that ignore shielding, so on and so forth.


According to the Eisenhorn omnibus, a void shield is capable of containing psykery. Including Alpha + class.
Now, im not sure if that just means they're very strong, or they can resist psyker powers due to some design, but either way, its interesting.

Three million metric tonnes isnt that much, accelerated to the speed of light, its quite impressive. But it still isnt in any way greater to a weaponised Lightspeed Kinetic device. Especially one that explodes.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Appearently you didn't read any posts of EM or Mine and are just blatantly appealing to popularity fallacy. Not too mention trying to equalize particle and ray shielding of SW units to void shielding of IoM ships. And again making association fallacy claims without a shred of proof.

So :snorlax: to your entire post until you post ACTUAL proof.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Appearently you didn't read any posts of EM or Mine and are just blatantly appealing to popularity fallacy. Not too mention trying to equalize particle and ray shielding of SW units to void shielding of IoM ships. And again making association fallacy claims without a shred of proof.
> 
> So :snorlax: to your entire post until you post ACTUAL proof.



I just did.
You asked for proof of Imp shields taking huge impacts.
I gave you proof. Deny it as much as you want.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Except that Lucas Films accepted a certain scientists's calculations from on film shownings and from elements of EU. Which in turn was the foundation of the ICS. And not only do that stat books remain canon, so to do its shownings.



There are _severe_ problems with this position these days. 

First and foremost, because newer canon replaces older sources and higher canon overrides elements of lesser canonicity. And Star Wars The Clone Wars is both higher canon and a more recent source than the AotC and RotS ICS books written by Curtis Saxton.

Meaning that we have now evidence of engagements between capital ships inside planetary atmospheres that don't even show nuke level effects; that _starfighters_ can be destroyed with repeated fire from infantry; that the impact of a slow 100 meters long asteroid is a cause of some concern for a Munificent class warship (concerning enough for Grievous to order that all available power be redirected to forward shields, at least); that the monstrous Malevolence, pride and joy of the CIS navy, disappeared in a distinctly underwhelming fireball...

Well. You get the idea. With just the G level movies there was enough ambiguity to go with ICS figures, particularly because the Dodonna calcs were still there and we didn't have the information to make an adequate counterargument against the Dodonna quote ("this station carries firepower greater than half the starfleet", for those who aren't active in the charming little world of sci-fi versus debating).

Which brings us to the second point. Since the publication of _Star Wars Death Star_, there is a canon (as in stated, instead of derived) figure for the power output of the DS hypermatter reactor. And it is around a _thousand_ times weaker than Saxton's calculation (energy bursts in the magnitude of 1E32 to 1E33, which is five to six orders of magnitude to figures used previously in Saxton's work). How do they reconcile this with the very violent mass scattering of Alderaan? 

Hyperspace did it. 

I kid you not. The superlaser has been retconned into incorporating an experimental Separatist device that shifts parts of the target into hyperspace. Probably silly and I guess that you will find this a bitter pill to swallow.

But this is how canon has it these days. BTW, relevant quote from DS follows:



			
				Death Star said:
			
		

> "Maybe. A backfire could overload the HM reactor and turn this station into radioactive dust, too."
> Doan shook his head. "Never happen. They got the Emperor himself looking over their shoulders on this one. They won't frip it up."
> Tenn shrugged. There was little point in worrying about equipment failure. If the thing worked, it would prove the Death Star to be, as Tarkin had put it in one of his many inspirational addresses to the station's population, "The ultimate power in the galaxy." If it didn't work?well, the hypermatter reactor was capable of generating an energy burst equivalent to the total weekly output of several main-sequence stars; if anything went wonky, it wasn't likely he'd be around long enough to notice. Nor would anyone else.
> "Yeah, well," he replied, "if they can build it so it holds together, I'll shoot it."
> ...



All of the above, combined with the sheer scarcity of other events in the EU supporting ICS derived figures has reopened the old canon debate.

Oh. And before you ask, I'm not gloating. My pet universe is still Stargate and they still get crushed under superior numbers, regardless of the results of these new debates, and I was more than fine with having some closure for the sorry mess that were the original canon debates that I witnessed when the AotC ICS was first published.

BTW, *Absence*, I am not supporting the notion that the IoM wins. The GE still has undeniably better industry, faster and more reliable FTL locomotion (and communications) and equivalent or better numbers. All this is compounded with the inability of the IoM to attack the SW galaxy, because as I have mentioned before the Astronomicon no longer even covers the entire Milky Way, making it all but impossible for the IoM warships to navigate throught the Warp to the home territories of an extragalactic foe.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

You didn't, you just invented bullshit. Give me page numbers and novels that you keep pulling these claims out of thin air.


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## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

G-Canon can not be over-ruled by C-Canon. Also, what incidents are you even talking about?


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## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

)

"Fleets of the Imperial Navy are made up of multiple vessels that can be divided into three broad categories:  and grand cruisers,  and light cruisers, and escorts (,  etc.). The actual size of starships in the  universe is debated, however it is worth noting that the upper size of an Imperial Escort mentioned is 30 kilometers from the Black Library story "Wolf Pack" by Gordon Rennie"


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## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> I have mentioned before the Astronomicon no longer even covers the entire Milky Way, making it all but impossible for the IoM warships to navigate throught the Warp to the home territories of an extragalactic foe.



I'm going to have to ask the OP to Clarify this, are they not ALREADY battling?
Does that make the GE the agressors?
Does this "Battle" Include annihilation the planets belonging to the other side, or is it just fleets vs fleets and ground troops vs ground troops?


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## Ark 2.0 (Nov 10, 2008)

argh...*ship wise*: *draw*, wille the imperium bosters superior ships with planet destroying capability, fast ship top ship weapons and teh ability to go into the warp and ambush the galactic empires ships...making them the victores in a short war...argh. But if this is a long standing comflict then the galacxtic empire takes the win, because they can repalce ships at a much faster rate then the empirium can...the same that happened in WWII, the germans what the tigers witch were imesily superior to the allied sherman, but the sherman won because it took less time to make and was less costly ( i say this if the empires has no death star and the imperium can't use the dreadnought) ...argh

argh..mech wise: imperium, lets fase it...titans outclass the at-at in all fields, mobility, armour, shielding and fire power...argh. argh...but again the empirium suffers from the same problem as with ships, but fromw hat i have seen in both fictions..i say an imperator class can easily take out a battalion of at-ats...argh

argh...infantry: imperium, wille i belife that stormtroopers are far superior to the common imperial guardsman, we have to take in count the thousands apobn thousand of space marines of the adeptus astartes (LOAYALIST SCUM), there quick strike capability and there overall power and gear make then the simple best troops in this conflict...argh

argh..leader: the emperor SW, why i say this...well, ebcause this is taking place after the emperors internment into the golden throne...else the imperiums ships would not be able to navigate threw the warp..., thought if thsi was with the emperor able and ready...i would have to say the 40k one (warp powers ftw)...argh


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> G-Canon can not be over-ruled by C-Canon.



The only C canon affected in all this is the Dodonna quote, which can be interpreted in any number of ways, from the number of surface guns to the power of the superlaser. Debaters have traditionally gone with the later, because it seems more logical given the exact wording that can be found in the novel version...



			
				ANH novelization said:
			
		

> "The station," Dodonna went on, "is heavily shielded and mounts more firepower than half the Imperial fleet. But its defenses were designed to fend off large-scale, capital ship assaults. A small, one-or two-man fighter should be able to slip through its defensive screens."



... and because Curtis Saxton built a compelling enough case with his work. 

In the light of the Death Star novel (which doesn't actually contradict ANH, but reveals that the superlaser is not a pure direct energy transfer mechanism, as was believed prior to its publication) and the recent examples of T-canon firepower, the ICS (which is still C-canon, no matter how high level) cannot be cited as definitive evidence anymore.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Those 1.6 kilometer ISDs are going to being matching pound for pound with upper tier IoM warships easily, Ark.

And don't forget a single ISD has the firepower to do to a planet's crush what it takes an entire IoM fleet to do with Extermanius.

And ICS still stands along with what we were shown in Empire and Rebellion as well as frame showcases from the films themselves.


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## Ark 2.0 (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Those 1.6 kilometer ISDs are going to being matching pound for pound with upper tier IoM warships easily, Ark.
> 
> And don't forget a single ISD has the firepower to do to a planet's crush what it takes an entire IoM fleet to do with Extermanius.



argh..actually...the principle of extermiatus is not not to destroy the plant persay...wille ISD can do world ruin, the IoM ships fire all there fire power at one point in the planet....hell a space amrine battle barge alone can kill a planet...exterminatus is to make shure it stays death..so death the plants crust breaks...argh


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## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Those 1.6 kilometer ISDs are going to being matching pound for pound with upper tier IoM warships easily, Ark.
> 
> And don't forget a single ISD has the firepower to do to a planet's crush what it takes an entire IoM fleet to do with Extermanius.
> 
> And ICS still stands along with what we were shown in Empire and Rebellion as well as frame showcases from the films themselves.



Uh, no. One ship carries out exterminatus. Either a Retribution battleship with a planet buster. Its uneccesary for multiple ships to be present, though there usually are, as Impman ships travel in fleets most often.

Or any number of small ships with Cyclonic Torpedoes, Virus Bombs... etc.

Exterminatus requires ONE ship


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Ark 12.0 said:


> argh..actually...the principle of extermiatus is not not to destroy the plant persay...wille ISD can do world ruin, the IoM ships fire all there fire power at one point in the planet....hell a space amrine battle barge alone can kill a planet...exterminatus is to make shure it stays death..so death the plants crust breaks...argh



A single ISD makes a planet stay dead, not just turn its crust to molten ruin.



Absence said:


> Uh, no. One ship carries out exterminatus. Either a Retribution battleship with a planet buster. Its uneccesary for multiple ships to be present, though there usually are, as Impman ships travel in fleets most often.
> 
> Or any number of small ships with Cyclonic Torpedoes, Virus Bombs... etc.
> 
> Exterminatus requires ONE ship



So post excerpts from the novels or scans from the comics of a single Battle Barge or warship capable of BDZing a planet on its own.


----------



## Ark 2.0 (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> So post excerpts from the novels or scans from the comics of a single Battle Barge or warship capable of *BDZing* a planet on its own.



argh...of course the IoM goku class destroyer..a.rgh


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Also Estrecca I'm surprised that you think a single contradiction in EU which doesn't exactly even debase Saxton's calculations is also going to over-rule the rest of EU.

Remember Bounty Hunter Wars?



			
				The Bounty Hunter Wars Book 2: Slave Ship said:
			
		

> Page 248 describes the recoil of a turbolaser cannon:
> 
> The laser cannons being mounted into the open skeletal frames required bracing and recoil-dissipation casings that would have withstood explosions measured in the giga-tonnage range. Anything less, and a single shot fired in battle would rip a destroyer or battle cruiser in two, a victim of its own lethal strength.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 10, 2008)

To all parts involved. It might be of interest for everyone to check both the  and the  at SD.net. 

The former contains a great deal of information about the capabilities of the different factions in 40k, whereas the latter includes links to most interesting threads involving this universe that have appeared over the years in the SD.net forum. 

Incidentally, regardless of the gripes that you might have with the Stardestroyer.net crew, I personally vouch for the rigour and honesty of Necronlord and Connor Macleod (the chief contributors in 40k matters) when it comes to debate and analysis. 

Just in case.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

As I vouch for Wong and Dalton.


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## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> A single ISD makes a planet stay dead, not just turn its crust to molten ruin.
> 
> 
> 
> So post excerpts from the novels or scans from the comics of a single Battle Barge or warship capable of BDZing a planet on its own.



There are no sources of comics on the net, not involving exterminatus.
Excerpts from the novels? Its not easy to get novels online. But here.

You won't take evidence from the offical Warhammer site, nor the wiki, nor word of mouth. I've provided plenty of evidence so far. Not my fault you're desperate to deny everything.





here's an image of a Battleship Beggining exterminatus. 


I found a source, the Ultramarines Omnibus

"The life-eater virus was quick to act and utterly lethal in its effects. Perhaps some had an inkling of what was being done to their world, but most would probably have succumbed without realising the magnitude of the betrayal visited upon them. The atmosphere would be saturated with mutagenic toxins that attacked the biological glue that held organic matter together, breaking it down with horrifying rapidity. Within hours there would be othing left alive and the virus would be forced to turn on itself in an unthinking act of viral self-cannibalism. The planet's surface would be covered by a thick layer of decayed sludge, wearthed in vast clouds of toxic waste matter. All it would take was a single shot from orbit to ignite the fumes and firestorms of apocalyptic magnitude would sweep the entire surface of the planet bare."


One shot. 
There you go.



And more


White Dwarf #236, The World of the Bloodied Sword, by Gavin Thorpe 
"We departed the world's surface and watched from the stars as the Akliamor began to activate. It happened slowly to begin with, I remember some of the children standing at the windows, competing to see who could spot the first few blossoms of explosions. Then a chain reaction began to build, as the dark matter at the centre of each weapon was released and began to accumulate. We watched a cloud of death spreading across the face of our ancient home. My vision was clouded with tears and the weeping of our kin weighed heavily on our hearts. Fields were stripped bare, the rocks crumbled to dust, the seas boiled into the air, creating massive electrical storms across the skies, all living things were scattered to the howling winds. We sang the Hymn of Lamentation as we watched Taqamathi dying before our eyes. It did not take long. A final eruption of power shattered the world's skin, causing great volcanoes to spring into life belching rock and dust into the already polluted atmosphere. Cracks and rents ripped across her once beautiful continents. Where the forests of Lietha once spread as far as the eye could see, there was no only rivers and lakes of lava and fire; the Gardens of Maegan were an ash-strewen desert; the majestic Zamua valleys were filled with boiling mud slides and fountaining geysers. At that final moment Taqamathi again retained something of beauty; the savage and powerful beauty of the universe unleashed and returning to its natural form, for Taqamathi had always been tamed to our will and now she was retuning to her wild origins. Satisfied that nothing could ever live on Taqamathi..."


Another source.

Satisifed?


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Also Estrecca I'm surprised that you think a single contradiction in EU which doesn't exactly even debase Saxton's calculations is also going to over-rule the rest of EU.
> 
> Remember Bounty Hunter Wars?



Actually, I have never read Bounty Hunter Wars, although I was faintly aware of the existence of this quote. 

The problems with this particular example are twofold. As a matter of fact,  isn't measured as explosive energy, but as force (measured in _newtons_ or kilograms force or ). 

Even if we go with gigatons as explosive power, the implied power level of ISD turbolaser is in the low PETATON range. Over a million times bigger than mere gigatons. And considering that a single shot of one of these could allegedly "rip a destroyer in half"... Well. We are not dealing with anti-starfighter guns. They are talking about the big stuff there.


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## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Actually, I have never read Bounty Hunter Wars, although I was faintly aware of the existence of this quote.
> 
> The problems with this particular example are twofold. As a matter of fact,  isn't measured as explosive energy, but as force (measured in _newtons_ or kilograms force or ).
> 
> Even if we go with gigatons as explosive power, the implied power level of ISD turbolaser is in the low PETATON range. Over a million times bigger than mere gigatons. And considering that a single shot of one of these could allegedly "rip a destroyer in half"... Well. We are not dealing with anti-starfighter guns. They are talking about the big stuff there.



I'd like to point out that destroyers in GE are puny little things.
I could eat one.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> As I vouch for Wong and Dalton.



Dalton? The Turbolaser Commentaries are the brainchild of Brian Young and are a notoriously conservative example of the figures suggested in the pre-ICS period. For example...



> Of course, with the energy required to vaporise the asteroid (~250 terajoules), a turbolaser bolt must have on the order of 3750 terawatts of firepower. The energy released would be approximately 4 times more than that of the Hiroshima bomb.
> 
> If the asteroids were 40 meters in diameter (and some were much larger), the TLs were directing at least 2000 TJ of energy to vaporise the asteroids, many times the conservative energy level presented above. If the amount of time the bolt is striking the asteroid is 1/15 second (2 frames), 30,000 Terawatts are delivered to the asteroid. Assuming these turbolaser cannons have a maximum firing rate of once every two seconds, they have a sustained firepower of at least 1000 terawatts. The most solid evidence that suggests 40 meter asteroids was in the Avenger-Falcon chase scene, coming out of the asteroid field. One asteroid was at least 60 meters in diameter, which would require at least 6700 terajoules to vaporise! Another asteroid in a previous scene may have been as large as 100 meters in diameter, requiring at least 31,000 terajoules to vaporise!



These figures (thousands of terajoules at best) are all well below a single digit gigaton. Of course, he is talking about low ends for the light/medium turbolasers used in the Hoth asteroid field, but to say that all these figures are woefully inadequate to match the IoM in firepower is an understatement of about six orders of magnitude. 

You'd do better linking to the  page in Doctor Saxton's own site.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

Absence said:


> I'd like to point out that destroyers in GE are puny little things.
> I could eat one.



Stop posting.



Estrecca said:


> Dalton? The Turbolaser Commentaries are the brainchild of Brian Young and are a notoriously conservative example of the figures suggested in the pre-ICS period. For example...



Those of course, as you said, very conservative estimates on the light turbolasers of a Mark I ISD. And the ICS still support those claims, and is offically approved by Leland Chee and Lucas Films.



> These figures (thousands of terajoules at best) are all well below a single digit gigaton. Of course, he is talking about low ends for the light/medium turbolasers used in the Hoth asteroid field, but to say that all these figures are woefully inadequate to match the IoM in firepower is an understatement of about six orders of magnitude.



It is a good thing indeed that the medium and heavy turbolasers of Star Destroyers are several fold more powerful at their most conservative estimates then those light turbolasers.

And none of which compare to the eight heavy quad-turbolasers which are each over fifty meters and directly powered by the hypermatter reactor of the ISD.



> You'd do better linking to the  page in Doctor Saxton's own site.



I am aware of that. And the claims are also supported by the Technical Commentaries.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> Stop posting.






But on a serious note, no.
You've been proven wrong, you've been provided all the evidence you've asked for, and you have no counter argument.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

TTGL joins the battle. Who wins now?


heh.


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

bitesize said:


> TTGL joins the battle. Who wins now?
> 
> 
> heh.



IOM.
why? Because TTGL is a tardverse.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

The Legendary Sanin
The Legendary Sanin
The Legendary Sanin

You repeatedly failed to address any of mine and EM's points. So keep up with spamming shitty internet memes.

Oh and once more, I'm happy to post excerpts from Bounty Hunter of the SW galaxy being over 400 million star systems.

Were as your entire argument realies on the IoM's size through hyperbole and no limits claims that each forge world specalizes in the Mechanicum's job, even though that has never been proven true and each Forge World specalizes in specific task like munitions, armor, infantry weapons, ect..

Not too mention that stupid size analogy claim for firepower when you never even proved it. And showed a random picture of IoM ships performing Extermanius.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

Absence said:


> IOM.
> why? Because TTGL is a tardverse.


TTGL would obliterate IOM and GE.


----------



## Fang (Nov 10, 2008)

That's nice.


----------



## bitesize (Nov 10, 2008)

TWF said:


> That's nice.


Well, he isn't responding to your posts.. so obviously the only solution is a digression.


----------



## Ark 2.0 (Nov 10, 2008)

argh...always wonder how Space marines (loyalist scum) would fair against stormstroopers..i mean how much does SM powerarmour defend agains't STs guns and vice-versa...argh


----------



## Wesker (Nov 10, 2008)

Space Marines rape regular storm troopers. But the ground forces are not the deciding factor.


----------



## Sengoku (Nov 10, 2008)

Do space marines have any type of protection against force user Jedis? Like what if a Jedi decides to force-choke a space marine? What can that Space Marine do?


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

Can't win an argument so you resort to negging.
Can't say i'm suprised.
=D


----------



## Cy (Nov 10, 2008)

Absence, stop trolling and bugger off already. You hurt more than help.

The BFG rulebook itself says escorts are around 2 KM long. I think that it represents a higher order of canon than a BL book. Also note that canon constantly evolves-> many things that were canon in 1st or 2nd ed aren't canon anymore. 

As for BDZs... can we have a quote on them? Looking at it logically, you'd have to pelt just about every inch of the planet with turbolaser fire to get the results you claim- thats why I call BS on them. They probably just torch the atmosphere, roasting everything on the surface to a crisp and melting down a couple of kilometers of crust rather than spend the time and energy to make sure every bit is shattered (which would take forever no matter how strong your weapons are).

As for the ramming thing... To IOM ships ramming other similarily armoured and sized ships at high speeds is seen as a legitimate tactic-> they're more than capable of taking the impact, especially with those armoured prows. Needless to say, the GE wins. I think everyone except for the troll agree on that. Do we really need to argue about stuff that doesn't affect the argument and of which niether side will ever step down on?


----------



## Ork (Nov 10, 2008)

Cy said:


> Absence, stop trolling and bugger off already. You hurt more than help.
> 
> The BFG rulebook itself says escorts are around 2 KM long. I think that it represents a higher order of canon than a BL book. Also note that canon constantly evolves-> many things that were canon in 1st or 2nd ed aren't canon anymore.
> 
> ...



If you can show me this quote on shipsize from the BFG book I'll back down on the size issue, I personally don't think I'm trolling, and thats all that matters to me. I havent been even vaguely convinced that the GE would win this fight.

Kinda lolling over the whole "You're a troll if you disagree" bit though.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 11, 2008)

He's not saying that "You're a troll if you disagree". He's saying that "You are Troll because you disagree".

Notice the difference there?


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2008)

Imperial capital ships directly target the crust and surface of a planet, they do not ignite the atmosphere in a firestorm and then just bugger off after toasting the world.

Hundreds of gigatons and terratons being rained down on a planet tend to fuck it up quite a bit.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> He's not saying that "You're a troll if you disagree". He's saying that "You are Troll because you disagree".
> 
> Notice the difference there?



Except I'm legitimately disagreeing and I've provided all evidence asked for at any point, except the info on the number of worlds owned by the Imperium, as no one knows exactly how many, only thats its a galaxy spanning empire.

If thats trolling, I'd hate to see what you call REAL trolls.
Only Troll I see here is TWF who, when he can't win an argument, just starts being rude to everyone.


----------



## Ork (Nov 11, 2008)

TWF said:


> Imperial capital ships directly target the crust and surface of a planet, they do not ignite the atmosphere in a firestorm and then just bugger off after toasting the world.
> 
> Hundreds of gigatons and terratons being rained down on a planet tend to fuck it up quite a bit.



Read the second quote. There's a lot of Crustkilling going on there.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 11, 2008)

Overall 40K universe wins against SW universe if all factions/powers are included


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

40k Humanity >>> Star Wars Humanity.


----------



## Fang (Nov 11, 2008)

Yes obviously when they believe machines have sentient souls and spirits and everything different is very bad for no reason.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yes obviously when they believe machines have sentient souls and spirits and everything different is very bad for no reason.



They've ritualised maintenance and construction.  Nothing more.  As for everything different, it curbs curiousity and defer to others experienced in dealing with such things.  Not a bad thing when you think about it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 11, 2008)

The Executor's shields were lowered by a combined bombardment from the rebel fleet, as ordered by Ackbar.

Furthermore, the novel says the beam "boosted" some of the planet's mass into hyperspace, implying it was a side - effect of the beam, not part of the mechanism.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 11, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Furthermore, the novel says the beam "boosted" some of the planet's mass into hyperspace, implying it was a side - effect of the beam, not part of the mechanism.



Problem is that by putting a technobabblish mechanism in the superlaser (and sending parts of the planet to hyperspace _definitely_ qualifies as technobabble), assuming that all the energy witnessed in the destruction of Alderaan comes from the hypermatter reactor of the Death Star is no longer safe. And the Dodonna calcs are the cornerstone of everything calculated by Saxton, including the quantification that he included in the ICS books, meaning that the firepower figures provided there are going the way of "Owen Lars is Kenobi's brother". 

Regardless of this firepower debate (that I have no particular interest in continuing, now that I've said my piece), the Imperium of Man is _doomed_ to lose eventually. Every strategical factor favours heavily the GE and as popular wisdom has it "tactics are for amateurs, logistics are for professionals". When only one of the competitors stands a chance of actually attacking the home territories of the other with any chance of success, there isn't a whole lot more to add.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

I'll say it again, the IoM is perfectly capable of matching Star Wars in industry, if not surpassing them.  They just don't need more hardware than they already have.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 11, 2008)

Wesley said:


> I'll say it again, the IoM is perfectly capable of matching Star Wars in industry, if not surpassing them.  They just don't need more hardware than they already have.



And I ask where is the evidence? 

The GE has the Death Stars as the ultimate demonstration of its industrial power, whereas the IoM has less warships capable of navigating through the Warp than it has worlds. 

The Eldar have the craftworlds. The Necrons have their Dyson Sphere and now the World Engine. What does the IoM have that can compare with the Death Stars, if I may ask?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> And I ask where is the evidence?
> 
> The GE has the Death Stars as the ultimate demonstration of its industrial power, whereas the IoM has less warships capable of navigating through the Warp than it has worlds.
> 
> The Eldar have the craftworlds. The Necrons have their Dyson Sphere and now the World Engine. What does the IoM have that can compare with the Death Stars, if I may ask?



Let me think again...

Well, here we have the Tyranid Respect Thread.  I believe one post made by Crimson Dragoon says that the Adeptus Mechanicus couldn't move one billion cubic kilometers worth of material given a year's time.  That gives an upper limit for the Admechs industrial capacity in terms of moving raw materials.

I don't know if the Admechs are the only ones in the IoM who handle raw materials, they may or may not, I don't know how their system is set up, but it's a solid number, though I don't know how it really compares with the Death Star II.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 11, 2008)

This would be the relevant part:



> Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].
> 
> 1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
> 8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0?C).
> ...



Surprisingly good piece of quantification, this one. 

So let's say that a strict upper limit of one billion cubic kilometers of material for the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus. This is actually pretty damn good, because even the larger (900 km diameter) DSII would have been short of four hundred _million_ cubic kilometers. 

Nonetheless, there are a number of observations to make here. 

1) The construction of the DSII did not involve the entirety of the Empire (if anything Moff Jerjerrod claimed that he needed more manpower and most of the material was transported by Endor by a single private fleet belonging to the head of a vast criminal organization).

2) The IoM quote refers to the transport of raw materials. The DSII is all refined material which is a better demonstration of industrial power. 

3) The SW EU actually contains something largely similar:



			
				Slave Ship Chp 10 said:
			
		

> He enjoyed his own grim humor. Keeping the claws of one hand resting on the grip of his holstered blaster, Bossk watched as Boba Fett looked around the moldering crevices and dry cliff faces of the ancient sea trench. The oceans of Gholondreine-B had been sucked down to the last molecule of saline liquid, then transported by a fleet of massive Imperial freighters to an orbital catalysis plant near Coruscant. Economy hadn't been the motivating factor-it was more expensive to ship that amount of water than to synthesize it-but punishment had been. The coastal and inland democracies on the planet's land masses had been irritatingly slow, in the eyes of Emperor Palpatine, to divest themselves of the last vestiges of allegiance to the old Republic. Now, beneath the flat glare of cloud-purged skies, dust wound through the cracked and empty streets of the deserted cities. Neighboring worlds in this sector had received a valuable object lesson in how to respond to the Emperor's commands.



Supposing that the volume of the oceans of Gholondreine was similar to Earth's... We are talking about roughly 1.3 billion cubic kilometers of material removed from the planet and then transported. And this is an event that barely gets any mention in the EU at large, so it can't have been such a great deal. In other words, roughly comparable capacity as a very best case scenario for the IoM.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 11, 2008)

You do realize that direct scaling down from the Death Star would give GE capship weapons and shields much, much higher values than they get in the ICS, right?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> You do realize that direct scaling down from the Death Star would give GE capship weapons and shields much, much higher values than they get in the ICS, right?



Not necessarily.  The Death Star has a shitty rof, with the first one taking a day between shots.  The second one has a better rof, but there's no reason to believe it's actually more destructive.  Perhaps better/larger capicitors and an improved reactor.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 11, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> You do realize that direct scaling down from the Death Star would give GE capship weapons and shields much, much higher values than they get in the ICS, right?



No. Not really. About an order of magnitude, at best

Power output of a Venator class Star Destroyer (according to ROTS ICS): 3.6E24 watts.

This puts the power output of the Imperial Star Destroyers roughly around 1.5E25 watts +/- 20%, using the most widely accepted volumetric guesstimates.

Maximum power output of the Death Star mark I, : 3.9E33 watts.

Equivalent to approximately 260 million ISDs in power generation.

Volume of an ISD: ~9E7 cubic meters.
Volume of the DSI (80 km radius): ~2.15E15 cubic meters.

In other words, the DSI is roughly 23.83 million times larger than an Imperator class Star Destroyer. Even with linear scaling, the very best you can hope to squeeze out of the movies (while completely ignoring the Death Star novel and its weird hyperspace hijinks) is a x10 power up. Not bad, but hardly Earth shattering. 
And given that even doctor Saxton deems it likely that the Death Star favours , thus explaining why Palpatine ordered that the second be over a hundred times larger than the first... Nah. There is some change, but not particularly gigantic.

EDIT: And, for the record, 1.5E25 is about _thirty_ times as much as Saxton himself calculates as necessary to accomplish a triple one Base Delta Zero (one ship, one hour, one kilometer depth), so there is no argument whatsoever to go beyond the 2E26 watts mark for ISDs.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> No. Not really. About an order of magnitude, at best
> 
> Power output of a Venator class Star Destroyer (according to ROTS ICS): 3.6E24 watts.
> 
> ...



Purely based on the Superlaser vs. Turbolaser.  Something like the Tarkin or Darksaber if you know what I mean.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 11, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Purely based on the Superlaser vs. Turbolaser.  Something like the Tarkin or Darksaber if you know what I mean.



I know of the existence of both (Darksaber being a made-in-Korea copy of the superlaser built by a Hutt clan and the Tarkin being yet another planet-killing superlaser that appears in the really old comics), but I don't know what you mean with "superlaser versus turbolaser".


----------



## Wesley (Nov 11, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> I know of the existence of both (Darksaber being a made-in-Korea copy of the superlaser built by a Hutt clan and the Tarkin being yet another planet-killing superlaser that appears in the really old comics), but I don't know what you mean with "superlaser versus turbolaser".



What I mean is the actual weapon and the supporting systems.  Like with a Turbolaser you've got the turret, the reactor, the capacitor.  It's not like every cubic inch of the Death Star was built to support the superlaser.  It's as much a real space station as it is a superweapon.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 11, 2008)

Although the superlaser is simply an upscaled version of pre-existing technology (seen on the LAATs in episode 2 and the superlaser is described in the literature as being made of "turbolaser pulses").

Anyway I was going by the 1e38j magnitude calcs, saying that even if you came up with an excuse to nerf the firepower of the Death Star, it wouldn't really do much to the firepower of the smaller weapons.


----------



## Cy (Nov 12, 2008)

Absence said:


> If you can show me this quote on shipsize from the BFG book I'll back down on the size issue, I personally don't think I'm trolling, and thats all that matters to me. I havent been even vaguely convinced that the GE would win this fight.
> 
> Kinda lolling over the whole "You're a troll if you disagree" bit though.



I don't have the book with me and last time I checked the specialist games site was down. Anyways, it mentions it in the scaling section which also states that 40K space battles take place over hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

Its not so much that I'm calling you a troll for disagreeing, but its more like I'm calling you a troll because you tard so much about your side and don't consider the possiblity of the other side possibly not being made of the amount of lose you think they are(just like TWF-> he really overpowers SW and underpowers 40K). So maybe troll wasn't the right word for it.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 12, 2008)

Cy said:


> I don't have the book with me and last time I checked the specialist games site was down. Anyways, it mentions it in the scaling section which also states that 40K space battles take place over hundreds of thousands of kilometers.



The "Grand 40k Quantification" thread of SD.net that I mentioned a few posts ago, contains a section that might be what you are looking for (the analysis done by Balrog of SD.net is the part bolded):



> "The two Blackstones have taken up station five thousand leagues from each other, some seventy five thousand leagues from Fularis II and just out of range of the weapons platforms, except for the torpedo launchers."
> 
> *One league is roughly equal to 5.56 kilometers, so the Blackstone fortresses were just out of range of Imperial weapons (except torpedos) at 417,000km.*


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2008)

Clone War-era Republican Star-Destroyers had ranges over 10 light minutes and thousands of kilometers was referenced as "point-blank" for SW capital ship engagements.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 12, 2008)

TWF said:


> Clone War-era Republican Star-Destroyers had ranges over 10 light minutes and thousands of kilometers was referenced as "point-blank" for SW capital ship engagements.



There's no way in hell that works.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2008)

Uh try again when Death Squadron could've bombarded Echo Base on Hoth at the outskirts of the solar system.

Try again, Wesley.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 12, 2008)

Isn't it the case that their ranges are that long in theory, but in practice ECM and other types of jamming force them to engage at much closer ranges?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 12, 2008)

TWF said:


> Uh try again when Death Squadron could've bombarded Echo Base on Hoth at the outskirts of the solar system.
> 
> Try again, Wesley.



Quote it.  I'm sure it's in the novel if it's anywhere at all.

And besides, even if a turbolaser bolt can _technically_ be fired from and hit a target from that distance, it's not going to work against that's not very big and not moving along a very predictable flight path.  Meaning they're not going to be shooting ships out of the sky at light minute ranges.

Effectively, they'll be hardpressed to score hits at light second ranges, and that is assuming turbolaser bolts travel at lightspeed, which they don't as depicted.


----------



## Gig (Nov 12, 2008)

Could you not work out the speed of the turbo laser shot from the opening scene of episode 4 by calculating the amount of time or the number of frames it takes the turbo laser shot to hit the tantive 4 or even how long it takes for the bolt to pass the Tantive when it misses.

Tantive 4 according to wookipedia (not the best source I know) has a maximum acceleration of 2,100 km/h in space and since the Tantive was fleeing from the ISD I would say it?s safe to presume it was at its maximum possible speed or just below it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 12, 2008)

The visible component of the bolts is only a small part of it - and, as can easily be seen by comparing scenes in the movies, the speeds of various kinds of laser and blaster bolts are not all that consistent.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 12, 2008)

IIRC (and my memory is unusually fuzzy about this particular), ROTS ICS states that blaster bolts contain lightspeed particles... which somehow move in some kind of helicoidal path inside the bolt, meaning that the bolt itself is not as fast as light.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Quote it.  I'm sure it's in the novel if it's anywhere at all.
> 
> And besides, even if a turbolaser bolt can _technically_ be fired from and hit a target from that distance, it's not going to work against that's not very big and not moving along a very predictable flight path.  Meaning they're not going to be shooting ships out of the sky at light minute ranges.
> 
> Effectively, they'll be hardpressed to score hits at light second ranges, and that is assuming turbolaser bolts travel at lightspeed, which they don't as depicted.



It was directly from the film. Derp derp. The fact that Ozzel purposely got too close to the planet was what alerted the Rebels at Echo Base would've given the Imperials what, less then 1/10th of a light second to order bombardment of the base?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 12, 2008)

TWF said:


> It was directly from the film. Derp derp. The fact that Ozzel purposely got too close to the planet was what alerted the Rebels at Echo Base would've given the Imperials what, less then 1/10th of a light second to order bombardment of the base?



The film said no such thing.


----------



## Gig (Nov 12, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> The visible component of the bolts is only a small part of it


Fair enough



Endless Mike said:


> - and, as can easily be seen by comparing scenes in the movies, the speeds of various kinds of laser and blaster bolts are not all that consistent.


I would have thought that all Turbo lasers of the same design/make would have the same firing speed and that all ships of the same design/make would use the same standard turbo laser so I don’t see why one ISDs turbo lasers would shot slower bolts than an other ISDs assuming they have the same weapons systems installed.

But anyway since you informed me that the visual part of the bolt is not all of it my idea is not adequate to calculate the speed

Edit: This is assuming all the weapons are in similar condition when I wrote it I did not take detraction of the mechanisms into account


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 12, 2008)

Wesley said:


> The film said no such thing.



4 minutes and 30 seconds into the clip

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6uQ1ROQm0k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Whats that? That's the sound of Wesley getting owned!


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2008)

Also further proof that Vader does not need to use his hands to Force Choke people into submission or death.


----------



## Fang (Nov 12, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Isn't it the case that their ranges are that long in theory, but in practice ECM and other types of jamming force them to engage at much closer ranges?



Yeah because its a military tactic in Star Wars to generally use sensor jamming on targeting and communication arrays to jam their counter-parts. Remember, the Empire did this at Yavin during the raid on the Death Star when Rouge/Red and Gold Squadrons attacked it.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> 4 minutes and 30 seconds into the clip
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6uQ1ROQm0k&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Whats that? That's the sound of Wesley getting owned!



Hoth is clearly visible in front of the Star Destroyers.  They are much closer than one light second.  The dialogue would indicate that their sensors told them that bombardment wouldn't work, not that they actually tried shooting, which they wouldn't do without Darth Vader's permission.

Nothing like seeing someone pwn themselves.


----------



## Gig (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Hoth is clearly visible in front of the Star Destroyers.  They are much closer than one light second.


 The fact that an ISD appears to around 1/3 of the size of Hoth suggests there quite far away similar to how the moon appears to be larger than the sun from earth despite the fact that the sun is 400x bigger than our moon


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

Gig said:


> The fact that an ISD appears to around 1/3 of the size of Hoth suggests there quite far away similar to how the moon appears to be larger than the sun from earth despite the fact that the sun is 400x bigger than our moon



The moon is a light-second give or take from the Earth.  Clearly the Star Destroyers are much closer to Hoth than the Moon is to Earth.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah no since they already entered the Hoth system at the solar system's outskirts. Just like how bad posters claim the Executor is only 8 kilometers in length when fucking up scaling against the Executor with the other ISDs of Death Squadron's.

Hoth was several light seconds away.

Unless your claiming that the ISD's are the size of the Earth's moon, I don't think so.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

A neutron and proto star is visible from light years away as well, does one think that if a ISD sighted it, it must be close to it as well?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

Do you even know what scaling and perspective are?  Clearly the Star Destroyers are close, while Hoth is very far, and Hoth, similiar in size to Earth, looks closer from the perspective of the Star Destroyers than Earth does from the Moon.  It's not that hard to understand.  Naturally the Star Destroyers are still very far away, but not hundreds of thousands of KM.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Yeah, we already know they can do so at the outskirts of the system. Aside from that, Death Squadron was all over the solar system, three Star Destroyers were flanking under the Executor, another five were splayed across the star system itself.

Vader's fleet was all over the place. By the way from Strongarm's youtube post, you can see one of the ISD's thousands of kilometers ahead of the rest of the fleet.

And again: 

- Vader: What is it, General?
- Veers: My lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Com-scan has detected an energy field protecting the sixth planet of the Hoth system. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment. 
- Vader: The rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed *too close* to the system.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Pretty obvious the first planet in front of Death Squadron when they entered Hoth's solar system was not Hoth itself.

Otherwise what the fuck is the point of saying its on the sixth planet?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

No, we don't know.  You haven't provided a quote and the planet shown at 4:30 is clearly Hoth.  As for being too close, I doubt he meant that as in he wanted to hyper in and bombard the crap out of them without warning, since Vader wanted Skywalker.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> No, we don't know.  You haven't provided a quote and the planet shown at 4:30 is clearly Hoth.  As for being too close, I doubt he meant that as in he wanted to hyper in and bombard the crap out of them without warning, since Vader wanted Skywalker.



We know that Vader would've never bombarded Hoth's Echo Base with Skywalker on there, that's obvious. But I find it funny how a blue white planet that was first showcased by Death Squadron isn't Hoth and then your shown a completely grey and white planet when the first rebel transports escape a a pouncing Star Destroyer outside of Hoth's orbit.

Your concession accepted.


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 13, 2008)

For comparison, this is what Earth looks like from the Moon (that is roughly one light second away from our world) and with  being _very_ close to Earth size according to Wookieepedia (couple extra hundred of kilometers in diameter) I am inclined to believe that Death Squadron did in fact emerge from hyperspace when they were still a couple hundred thousands of kilometers away from the planet.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

And there's still the fact that one of the ISD was light seconds out from the rest of the fleet when Death Squadron first reverted back from lightspeed when entering the Hoth system.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> We know that Vader would've never bombarded Hoth's Echo Base with Skywalker on there, that's obvious. But I find it funny how a blue white planet that was first showcased by Death Squadron isn't Hoth and then your shown a completely grey and white planet when the first rebel transports escape a a pouncing Star Destroyer outside of Hoth's orbit.
> 
> Your concession accepted.



It's the same planet.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Your welcome to believe that. Let's recap, there was only one Star Destroyer close to any planet shown from the scene when Death Squadron entered the Hoth solar system, the Rebels have FTL comm and sensor arrays at Hoth, hundreds of kilometers is referenced as point blank ranges during RoTJ and Star Destroyers from the Republic era have been stated near the end to have 10 light minute ranges.

All evidence to the contrary against you.


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

Cy said:


> I don't have the book with me and last time I checked the specialist games site was down. Anyways, it mentions it in the scaling section which also states that 40K space battles take place over hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
> 
> Its not so much that I'm calling you a troll for disagreeing, but its more like I'm calling you a troll because you tard so much about your side and don't consider the possiblity of the other side possibly not being made of the amount of lose you think they are(just like TWF-> he really overpowers SW and underpowers 40K). So maybe troll wasn't the right word for it.



My Entire argument ended up that I think the GE has superior Mobility and possibly Superior Manufacturing capability, but that the Imperium Of man Had too much of a General Size and Shield and Weaponry power advantage to be defeated. 

I can't really accept the whole size thing if I'm not provided the evidene claimed, I've had to prove my points all the way through.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

That's nice, Jango Fett's semisic charges were capable of producing several kilotons of force per second that wiped out asteriods in the radius of five to ten kilometers at Genosis when Obi-Wan was chasing him in AoTC.

And I'm still waiting for those excerpts of Forge Worlds specializing in the Adeptus Mechanicum's jobs since you made that claim, to provide evidence since the burden of proof on you.

Not too mention terraton and petaton ranges is above general IoM warship capacities. Which ISDs can take.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> Your welcome to believe that. Let's recap, there was only one Star Destroyer close to any planet shown from the scene when Death Squadron entered the Hoth solar system, the Rebels have FTL comm and sensor arrays at Hoth, hundreds of kilometers is referenced as point blank ranges during RoTJ and Star Destroyers from the Republic era have been stated near the end to have 10 light minute ranges.
> 
> All evidence to the contrary against you.



You haven't cited any evidence.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Cross sections from RoTS for one, RoTJ and TESB visual evidence for two.

Try again, Wesley.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> Cross sections from RoTS for one, RoTJ and TESB visual evidence for two.
> 
> Try again, Wesley.



Cross Sections doesn't make sense and there's no visual or audio evidence from RoTJ or TESB that supports what you're saying.


----------



## Grrblt (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF is a self admitted troll. No point in arguing with him.


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## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

Grrblt said:


> TWF is a self admitted troll. No point in arguing with him.



Trolls will implode if you keep at them.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 13, 2008)

Are you kidding? TWF is making all of the correct arguments.

Vader's quote clearly indicates that they arrived too close, allowing the rebels to get the shield up - meaning they originally intended to arrive outside of sensor range and begin the bombardment. As the clip clearly shows, they were at least 6 planetary diameters from the planet - meaning their range is significantly greater than that - combine this with the EU evidence and it makes perfect sense.

The only trolls here are Wesley and Absence


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## strongarm85 (Nov 13, 2008)

Pretty much, Wesley clearly doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to Star Wars.


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## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Are you kidding? TWF is making all of the correct arguments.
> 
> Vader's quote clearly indicates that they arrived too close, allowing the rebels to get the shield up - meaning they originally intended to arrive outside of sensor range and begin the bombardment. As the clip clearly shows, they were at least 6 planetary diameters from the planet - meaning their range is significantly greater than that - combine this with the EU evidence and it makes perfect sense.
> 
> The only trolls here are Wesley and Absence



No, TWF is insisting they have light minute ranges.  Six planetary diameters, as you say, isn't even half a light second.  And a bomdardment makes no sense since Lord Vader wished to capture Commander Skywalker.  A bombardment would have only killed him.

As for coming in too close to the system, that was likely because they could have organized the fleet better and prepared the attack, giving the Rebels less warning to begin their evacuation.  General Reikan (spelling) said it himself earlier, that all the asteriod activity would make it difficult to spot incoming ships, unless they appeared out of nowhere as a ship coming out of Hyperspace would.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Grrblt said:


> TWF is a self admitted troll. No point in arguing with him.



:snorlax:



Wesley said:


> No, TWF is insisting they have light minute ranges.  Six planetary diameters, as you say, isn't even half a light second.  And a bomdardment makes no sense since Lord Vader wished to capture Commander Skywalker.  A bombardment would have only killed him.



How would bombing the shield generator kill Skywalker?


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## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> How would bombing the shield generator kill Skywalker?



How?  By launching an attack that would probably exceed Earth's entire nuclear arsenal?  Using precision shooting that is never demonstrated in the films?

Sure, maybe if they'd snuck into the system and launched TIE Bombers, but that's not really saying much.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

ROTS Incredible Cross-Sections said:
			
		

> [sic]...In its precise, long-range tracking mode, the DBY-827 could hit a target vessel at a range of 10 light minutes. During close-range fights, the turrets could rotate in three seconds with their fast-tracking mode



And that was for Clone-Wars era Venator-Class Star Destroyers.

Evidence from the source book itself.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> How?  By launching an attack that would probably exceed Earth's entire nuclear arsenal?



That's assuming you think Death Squadron was planning to massively BDZ Hoth, which we both know they wouldn't need to.



> Using precision shooting that is never demonstrated in the films?



Like how the Tantive IV had its sensor array and communication hub knocked by the Devestator when fleeing it at the full speed its sublight ion engines could propel it.

Funny how General Veer's command AT-AT Imperial Walker precisely hit a target almost 20 kilometers out.

Also funny how the Executor and the Rebel Alliance fleet were trading shoots at each other more then several thousands of kilometers away from each other.

Why would Vader need to use the full power of any of his Imp II ISDS or SSD to use their full power to take out a single triple shield generator?

Those medium turbolaser banks on the side trenches would've more then sufficed.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> No, TWF is insisting they have light minute ranges.  Six planetary diameters, as you say, isn't even half a light second.  And a bomdardment makes no sense since Lord Vader wished to capture Commander Skywalker.  A bombardment would have only killed him.
> 
> As for coming in too close to the system, that was likely because they could have organized the fleet better and prepared the attack, giving the Rebels less warning to begin their evacuation.  General Reikan (spelling) said it himself earlier, that all the asteriod activity would make it difficult to spot incoming ships, unless they appeared out of nowhere as a ship coming out of Hyperspace would.



*sigh* No, the reason Vader was upset was Ozzel was because Ozzel dropped out of hyperspace too close to the system which alerted the Rebels to their presence when what Ozzel should have done was come out of hyperspace near the asteroid belt to use them as a means of natural cover as they sent small ships to attack the system.

Planetary shield generators are easily detectable by Star Wars sensor systems. The Rebels did not raise their shield up prior to the Empire showing up because it would be just as good as hanging up a bright neon sign the size of a continent saying "We're over here!"

Had Ozzel used the Astroids as cover, Vader's fleet would have sent in TIE Bombers to take out the shield generator and put landing craft directly on top of the base where they would then be able to easily cut off the Rebel's escape crush the Rebelion. Because Ozzel screwed up they Vader lost his chance to do that, which is why Vader killed him.


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## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

I notice TWF never responded to my proof that one ship CAN perform exterminatus, even though he was vehemently denying it.
If its right, he'll ignore it and keep on arguing, and probably neg you. If its wrong, he'll just argue.

Don't bother.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Absence said:


> There are no sources of comics on the net, not involving exterminatus.
> Excerpts from the novels? Its not easy to get novels online. But here.
> 
> You won't take evidence from the offical Warhammer site, nor the wiki, nor word of mouth. I've provided plenty of evidence so far. Not my fault you're desperate to deny everything.




Notice how this isn't one ship at all.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> "The life-eater virus was quick to act and utterly lethal in its effects. Perhaps some had an inkling of what was being done to their world, but most would probably have succumbed without realising the magnitude of the betrayal visited upon them. The atmosphere would be saturated with mutagenic toxins that attacked the biological glue that held organic matter together, breaking it down with horrifying rapidity. Within hours there would be othing left alive and the virus would be forced to turn on itself in an unthinking act of viral self-cannibalism. The planet's surface would be covered by a thick layer of decayed sludge, wearthed in vast clouds of toxic waste matter. All it would take was a single shot from orbit to ignite the fumes and firestorms of apocalyptic magnitude would sweep the entire surface of the planet bare."



Funny how the chemical changes in the atmosphere of the planet from the Viral bombing is what allowed that firestorm from its chemical imbalance.

Not sheer power at all, try again.

I own the Ultramarine Omnibus as well as its defacto sequels as well, post the page number from the novel.



> *Spoiler*: _White Dwarf #236, The World of the Bloodied Sword, by Gavin Thorpe_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No I am not satifised as you provided nothing in this quote, where is the reference for that single ship?


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## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> *snip*



I believe I said all of that.

@TWF  The ICS is stupid.  The only way that could possibly work is if turbolasers were ftl, and there's no evidence they're even as fast as light.  And all of those instances you sighted were against stationary/unmoving/predictable targets at close ranges.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> I believe I said all of that.
> 
> @TWF  The ICS is stupid.  The only way that could possibly work is if turbolasers were ftl, and there's no evidence they're even as fast as light.  And all of those instances you sighted were against stationary/unmoving/predictable targets at close ranges.



No its not. For one, turbolasers have been prove to travel at subluminal/revalistic speeds. Number two, hitting a kilometer large or so target several thousands of kilometers out is not a small feat, they were still moving at cruising speeds.

And we already know that Acclamator-Class Star Destroyers put out 24 light cannons each rated at 6 megatons and its heavy guns (12 quad-turbolasers) with each normal blast at 200 gigatons.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> No its not. For one, turbolasers have been prove to travel at subluminal/revalistic speeds. Number two, hitting a kilometer large or so target several thousands of kilometers out is not a small feat, they were still moving at cruising speeds.
> 
> And we already know that Acclamator-Class Star Destroyers put out 24 light cannons each rated at 6 megatons and its heavy guns (12 quad-turbolasers) with each normal blast at 200 gigatons.



I'm taking issue with the ICS ten light minute quote.  Do you not see how this makes no sense?  Even if they can track a ship from that distance (no reason to believe they can), even if their guns can technically project power to such a distance (also no reason to believe they can), it'd still take _ten minutes_ for a shot to reach the target *at minimum*.  The slightest course deviation, even by an inch, would cause a target to go well clearof the shot.

Light seconds at best, effectively much less than that.

And your firepower quote helps alot in proving they wouldn't have bombed the shield generator from orbit.  Six megatons probably would have wiped out Echobase completely.


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## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Ten-light minutes is the maximum effective range. Bombarding a planet from the outskirts of solar system is not hard, with the time frame.


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## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> Notice how this isn't one ship at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ugh, you clearly can't read.
First off, the other ships are clearly not in the firing arc of the explosion. The battleship is.
Its obvious, you refuse to see it, but it was just an illustration anyway.
Does it matter if its a viral attack? The planet was cleansed by a single ship. You said no single ship could perform exterminatus. Hence, you're WRONG.
Thats right, you're WRONG.


Oh, and as far as power of their weapons and whatnot goes


_13th Legion_ - Gav Thorpe, Black Library, Page 134-135 
"Most cruisers carry huge torpedoes as well, loaded with multiple warheads charged with volatile plasma bombs, carrying the power to unleash the energy of a small star on the enemy. It makes my humble laspistol look like a spit in an ocean. More like a hundred oceans, actually." 

Each Torp releases energy equal to a small star on explosion.

Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook, Games Workshop, Page 97: 
"The two Blackstones have taken up station five thousand leagues from each other, some seventy five thousand leagues from Fularis II and just out of range of the weapons platforms, except for the torpedo launchers." 
Meaning that Average range of Imp Weapons is just under 5000 Leagues... whatever that is in light seconds/minutes. 417000 KM.


Some more info on power

Battlefleet Gothic Rulebook, Games Workshop, Page 8: 
"Battleships are the largest fighting ships in space. They can absorb a tremendous amount of damage and mount weapons batteries capable of laying waste to entire continents." 




As far as the Akliamor thing goes, it was a single artifact. Not even really a ship, and it annihilated the entire planet.



From the first edition rulebook
"The attacking fleet is escorting Extermiantors, ships capable of laying waste to entire planetary populations or even obliterating all life on a world in a matter of hours. All had heard of Exterminatus with fusion torpedoes, virus bombs and mass drivers, but to know the enemy had the ability to destroy an entire planet, not just all life on it, must have been the most chilling thought that any naval crewman had ever faced."

According to the book itself, ANY SHIP may becomes an Extermiator (the Planet killer ships)
By simply having its prow weapon replaced, Cruisers are the smallest ship with a prow weapon.




Sabbat Worlds Crusade, page 5 the Sabbat Worlds sector contained "over *one hundred inhabited systems*...with an estimated human population of *five trillion*". 

A sector is a small division of one of the 5 divisions of the Galaxy.
Thats all the info I found on that.


Most of this post is borrowed from the stardestroyer.net forums, as it provides solid calcs.

Some Solid numbers to be proven to be weaker/stronger than their GE equivalents.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

Give me the page numbers from the Ultramarines Omnibus now. The Exterminus of the planet you physically showed was more then one ship firing on it.

And terraton and petaton levels are easy for a Mark II ISD to do so. So either give me those page numbers or I will accept this as a concession from you.

A 22 year old outdated Venator and Acclimator class SDs can wipe out planets on their own as well.

Nothing you have provided has showcased terraton or petaton level firepower at all.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> Ten-light minutes is the maximum effective range. Bombarding a planet from the outskirts of solar system is not hard, with the time frame.



The source you sited claims they can hit a ship from ten light minutes.  You do know how far a light minute is don't you?  And how large a solar system is don't you?  It takes _hours_ for light to leave a solar system.  It takes ten minutes for light from the sun to reach Earth.  We're talking tens of millions and billions of kilometers.


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> No, TWF is insisting they have light minute ranges.  Six planetary diameters, as you say, isn't even half a light second.  And a bomdardment makes no sense since Lord Vader wished to capture Commander Skywalker.  A bombardment would have only killed him.



That's why he said he wanted a clean bombardment - enough to destroy defensive structures of the base (such as the shield generators and ion cannon).

Why do you think he got so angry at Ozzel for arriving so close to be detected?



> As for coming in too close to the system, that was likely because they could have organized the fleet better and prepared the attack, giving the Rebels less warning to begin their evacuation.  General Reikan (spelling) said it himself earlier, that all the asteriod activity would make it difficult to spot incoming ships, unless they appeared out of nowhere as a ship coming out of Hyperspace would.



The whole point was that they didn't want to alert the rebels to raise the shield, making their attack much more difficult.



> How? By launching an attack that would probably exceed Earth's entire nuclear arsenal? Using precision shooting that is never demonstrated in the films?
> 
> Sure, maybe if they'd snuck into the system and launched TIE Bombers, but that's not really saying much.



They were planning to take the shield generators out with a long - range strike. This was stated in the novelization IIRC.



> Planetary shield generators are easily detectable by Star Wars sensor systems. The Rebels did not raise their shield up prior to the Empire showing up because it would be just as good as hanging up a bright neon sign the size of a continent saying "We're over here!"



Also they can't keep it raised all the time since it uses a lot of power.



> @TWF The ICS is stupid. The only way that could possibly work is if turbolasers were ftl, and there's no evidence they're even as fast as light. And all of those instances you sighted were against stationary/unmoving/predictable targets at close ranges.



I believe that if you time the Death Star's destruction of Alderaan, the beam is moving at around lightspeed. (keep in mind the superlaser is just an upscaled version of standard turbolaser technology)

As I said, the visible component isn't the only part of the beam.



> I'm taking issue with the ICS ten light minute quote. Do you not see how this makes no sense? Even if they can track a ship from that distance (no reason to believe they can), even if their guns can technically project power to such a distance (also no reason to believe they can), it'd still take ten minutes for a shot to reach the target at minimum. The slightest course deviation, even by an inch, would cause a target to go well clearof the shot.



It's called leading the target.

Obviously it won't work on a target that is using evasive maneuvers



> And your firepower quote helps alot in proving they wouldn't have bombed the shield generator from orbit. Six megatons probably would have wiped out Echobase completely.



Because it's not like they can dial down the yields or anything, right? 

The power of the weapon depends on how much energy is put into it - those numbers are just the maximum yields.


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> Give me the page numbers from the Ultramarines Omnibus now. The Exterminus of the planet you physically showed was more then one ship firing on it.
> 
> And terraton and petaton levels are easy for a Mark II ISD to do so. So either give me those page numbers or I will accept this as a concession from you.
> 
> ...



Dude, why don't you give me a page reference and show me actual written evidence that the 22 year old SD's can wipe out planets on your own, then give me page references/proof that Veers ATAT hit a 20 KM target accurately, then give me page references and pictures that Imp Guns projectiles move at relativistic speed.

I've provided more than enough solid backed up evidence, and you keep supplying crap such as "We all know that the acclimators guns are rated at 6 megatons". Do we? I don't. Prove it.

If you're going to demand such accurate evidence off your opponents for every single point they make, then I demand the same from you.

and "From the Ultramarines Omnibus" is a perfectly satisfactory source.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 13, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Why do you think he got so angry at Ozzel for arriving so close to be detected?



Ironically, Ozzel's decision probably allowed them to capture and destroy as many Rebels as they did.  They were already planning on leaving when they discovered the Probe Driod, which the Imperials were unaware of.



> It's called leading the target.
> 
> Obviously it won't work on a target that is using evasive maneuvers



You don't lead targets at ten light minute ranges with stl weapons.  The slightest deviation at the time of firing and the time of arrival would cause a clean miss.



> Because it's not like they can dial down the yields or anything, right?
> 
> The power of the weapon depends on how much energy is put into it - those numbers are just the maximum yields.



And that wouldn't cause a drop in range?  If you please, provide a quote from the TESB novelisation that says they were planning on bombarding the rebels.


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Ironically, Ozzel's decision probably allowed them to capture and destroy as many Rebels as they did.  They were already planning on leaving when they discovered the Probe Driod, which the Imperials were unaware of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To be fair, you don't lead  targets at the ten light minute ranges with weapons that are any slower than 10 light minutes a second, which is 600 times the speed of light.

One second in combat time is a long time.
Especially at the speeds that these ships are moving at.


----------



## Gig (Nov 13, 2008)

Absence said:


> I notice TWF never responded to my proof that one ship CAN perform exterminatus, even though he was vehemently denying it.
> If its right, he'll ignore it and keep on arguing, and probably neg you. If its wrong, he'll just argue.
> 
> Don't bother.


That was because it was not one ship absence the fact you only posted a picture of the planet and not the clip from fire warrior kind of gave it away that you where hiding something 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYXj9xOUFIM&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

As you can see there it was not 1 ship as you claimed but 5 ships


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Ironically, Ozzel's decision probably allowed them to capture and destroy as many Rebels as they did.  They were already planning on leaving when they discovered the Probe Driod, which the Imperials were unaware of.



Idiot! Yes the Rebels where planning on leaving. However, the Rebel didn't have enough time to pack up all their shit first so they just left with what they could manage to fit on the transports in time. The Ion canon and the Sheild generator are very expensive. The Rebel, if they had enough time, would have wanted to disassemble and take off with them as they left. But enough time would have been several more days.

Because the shield generator and the Ion Canon where still in place thousands of Rebel managed to escape, even if they where forced to leave most of their stuff behind. Ozzel screwed up the whole attack. The Empire hardly managed to capture any Rebels because the Ion Canon managed to cover their escape. They managed to kill a good number of Rebels, but not enough to crush the Rebellion, which they would have been able to do if Ozzel didn't screw up.


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

Gig said:


> That was because it was not one ship absence the fact you only posted a picture of the planet and not the clip from fire warrior kind of gave it away that you where hiding something


----------



## Gig (Nov 13, 2008)

Absence said:


> Dude, why don't you give me a page reference and show me actual written evidence that the 22 year old SD's can wipe out planets on your own, then give me page references/proof that Veers ATAT hit a 20 KM target accurately, then give me page references and pictures that Imp Guns projectiles move at relativistic speed.



(7:31) the pilot states the distance to power generator I could not hear it very well though 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3ZgjPYknfQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 13, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Ironically, Ozzel's decision probably allowed them to capture and destroy as many Rebels as they did.  They were already planning on leaving when they discovered the Probe Driod, which the Imperials were unaware of.



Thank you for proving you have no clue WTF you're talking about



> You don't lead targets at ten light minute ranges with stl weapons.  The slightest deviation at the time of firing and the time of arrival would cause a clean miss.



They're not that slow, and you underestimate the accuracy of SW computer systems



> And that wouldn't cause a drop in range?  If you please, provide a quote from the TESB novelisation that says they were planning on bombarding the rebels.



It's fucking obvious to anyone with a brain - why else would they be so pissed off about the Rebels getting the shield up in time?

BTW you have to love Absence asking for quotes that have already been provided multiple times in the thread.

Geez, this is just getting to be a trollfest. The mods should lock this and issue bans and/or warnings to Absence and Wesley


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

Gig said:


> (7:31) the pilot states the distance to power generator I could not hear it very well though


----------



## Endless Mike (Nov 13, 2008)

You have your evidence - how about actually backing up your claims now? Especially since you're a known liar, you're naturally given more scrutiny.


----------



## Fang (Nov 13, 2008)

It was physically stated in the source books and novels that Venators and Acclamators can BDZ planets. Base-Delta-Zero has been a technique in Star Wars since the time of the Old Republic. Which requires hundreds of gigatons or terratons at minimum with effiecieny for a warship to do so on its on.



Gig said:


> (7:31) the pilot states the distance to power generator I could not hear it very well though
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3ZgjPYknfQ[/YOUTUBE]



Almost 18 kilometers. You'll notice thats when the Imperial Walker fires its chin mounted heavy turrets, thus creating a kiloton level blast when the shield generator is taken out.



Absence said:


> Dude, why don't you give me a page reference and show me actual written evidence that the 22 year old SD's can wipe out planets on your own, then give me page references/proof that Veers ATAT hit a 20 KM target accurately, then give me page references and pictures that Imp Guns projectiles move at relativistic speed.
> 
> I've provided more than enough solid backed up evidence, and you keep supplying crap such as "We all know that the acclimators guns are rated at 6 megatons". Do we? I don't. Prove it.
> 
> ...





Give me the page number from the fucking Ultramarines Omnibus now. And I've already provided physical evidence on Venator firepower, as well as Acclamator, both which have less heavy guns and weaker reactors then a Imp I, II or SSD or Eclipse or any other heavy cruiser or destroyer class ship in the SW universe.


----------



## Gig (Nov 13, 2008)

Not really relevant but a single 4,000 year old Interdictor-class Cruiser using 20 quad laser cannons  (which are used as anti fighter weapons by the time of the empire) is capable of setting the entire surface of a planet the size of Coruscant ablaze.  

So why is it hard to understand that a ship of more powerful class made of vastly superior technology using more and heaver guns can’t BDZ a planet on it's own?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng0jgE8aTY0[/YOUTUBE]

Edit: oh wrong clip my bad
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIM0ReXhenc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

TWF said:


> It was physically stated in the source books and novels that Venators and Acclamators can BDZ planets. Base-Delta-Zero has been a technique in Star Wars since the time of the Old Republic. Which requires hundreds of gigatons or terratons at minimum with effiecieny for a warship to do so on its on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ultramarines Omnibus,  page 378-379
Go read it.
You asked for it.
*Must... resist... urge... to flame...*


----------



## Ork (Nov 13, 2008)

Gig said:


> Not really relevant but a single 4,000 year old Interdictor-class Cruiser using 20 quad laser cannons  (which are used as anti fighter weapons by the time of the empire) is capable of setting the entire surface of a planet the size of Coruscant ablaze.
> 
> So why is it hard to understand that a ship of more powerful class made of vastly superior technology using more and heaver guns can’t BDZ a planet on it's own?


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 14, 2008)

That is an Imperial Star Destroyer. Just a regular ISD.

SSDs are wider on top than they are on the bottom. And the back of an SSD hangs out over the engions. That and SSDs are like 8 times bigger than ISDs.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Super Star Destroyers are typically 17.5 to 18 kilometers in length, I think 8 times is a bit of an understatement.

Anyway how wide are they? At least three or four kilometers from stern to bow right?


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 14, 2008)

But yeah Absense, its an ISD. I can't tell if its a Mark 1 or a Mark 2, but its an ISD.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Thank you for proving you have no clue WTF you're talking about



You have no clue what I'm talking about.  The Rebels were already leaving after they found the Probe Driod.  The Empire didn't know the Probe Driod had been discovered.  If they'd tried sneaking in that would have only given the Rebels more time to evacuate.



> They're not that slow, and you underestimate the accuracy of SW computer systems



2 meter target while flying a few hundred meters per second at best?  Impossible!  Even for a computer!



> It's fucking obvious to anyone with a brain - why else would they be so pissed off about the Rebels getting the shield up in time?



They were ticked they knew the Star Destroyers were there, giving less time to the Imperials to prepare for the attack.



> BTW you have to love Absence asking for quotes that have already been provided multiple times in the thread.



That get ignored.


----------



## Gig (Nov 14, 2008)

Absence said:


> And, did they actually BDZ the planet after that? I can clearly see they're saying they WILL, but did they? Lots of villians brag.



Yes they did I posted the wrong clip by accident 



Gig said:


> Edit: oh wrong clip my bad here is the one I intended to post
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIM0ReXhenc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Ork (Nov 14, 2008)

Gig said:


> Yes they did I posted the wrong clip by accident



I have no doubt that such a bombardment would kill most people in most cities on the planet, but nothing in that video really gives me the impression of annihilating al life on the planet and leaving it a molten ball of uninhabitable rock.


----------



## Gig (Nov 14, 2008)

Absence said:


> I have no doubt that such a bombardment would kill most people in most cities on the planet, but nothing in that video really gives me the impression of annihilating al life on the planet and leaving it a molten ball of uninhabitable rock.


Taris is an Ecumenopolis () the city covers the entire planet and if you watch it properly the entire surface is on fire.

On top of that according to an ingame description in empire at war the planet had to have large areas Terraformed a few millennia latter to make it inhabitable again and even then it was still a wasteland with a very small populations restricted to small cities


----------



## Ork (Nov 14, 2008)

Gig said:


> Taris is an Ecumenopolis () the city covers the entire planet and if you watch it properly the entire surface is on fire.
> 
> On top of that according to an ingame description in empire at war the planet had to be Terraformed thousands of years latter to make it even inhabitable and even then it was still a wasteland with a very small population



I'll take your word for it, I only ever played Kotor2.


----------



## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> You have no clue what I'm talking about.  The Rebels were already leaving after they found the Probe Driod.  The Empire didn't know the Probe Driod had been discovered.  If they'd tried sneaking in that would have only given the Rebels more time to evacuate.



They might've already been preparing to leave when the probe droid found them. The only thing you have of anything is Han saying, " It's a sure bet the Empire knows we're here now. "

They were never shown evacuating until after Ozzel blunder the fleet's drop from hyperspace into the Hoth solar system.



> 2 meter target while flying a few hundred meters per second at best?  Impossible!  Even for a computer!



You mean at several thousand gee's while dodging point defese turbolasers and blaster cannons?


----------



## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> They might've already been preparing to leave when the probe droid found them. The only thing you have of anything is Han saying, " It's a sure bet the Empire knows we're here now. "
> 
> They were never shown evacuating until after Ozzel blunder the fleet's drop from hyperspace into the Hoth solar system.



The base general said they'd better begin the evacuation, didn't he?  And they were preparing to evacuate.  It's not like transport ships are packed and ready to go at a moment's notice.  It wouldn't make sense to leave equipment and personel onboard a ship, unused.

Admiral Ozzel's decision was the right one and Lord Vader killed him for it.



> You mean at several thousand gee's while dodging point defese turbolasers and blaster cannons?



Not as depicted in the film I'm afraid.  Can you imagine how boring the movie would have been if they had?


----------



## Estrecca (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> You mean at several thousand gee's while dodging point defese turbolasers and blaster cannons?



The polar trench is, at the absolute high end, a couple hundred kilometers long and it takes the fighters several _minutes_ to reach fire position. So the relative speed (measured in meters or kilometers per second, not in g that is a unit of acceleration and doesn't apply here) of the X-Wings in the trench is going to be in the mach 10 range, maximum. And probably a _lot_ lower. Never mind that the rebels do not actually do virtually any dodging once they are inside the trench.


----------



## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> The base general said they'd better begin the evacuation, didn't he?  And they were preparing to evacuate.  It's not like transport ships are packed and ready to go at a moment's notice.  It wouldn't make sense to leave equipment and personel onboard a ship, unused.



Except your never shown them preparing to leave and actually evacuating equipment and material as well as troops/techs/mechanics/ect...until after the Walkers arrived and the Battle of Hoth began..



> Admiral Ozzel's decision was the right one and Lord Vader killed him for it.



Try again.



> Not as depicted in the film I'm afraid.  Can you imagine how boring the movie would have been if they had?



You might want to try again when those X-Wings have been rated at over 7,000 gee's in vacuum.

Suspension of disbelief. Try it some time. Not that it matters considering how Luke's proton torpedo executed a 90 degree turn at 72,000 gee forces were exerted.


----------



## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> Except your never shown them preparing to leave and actually evacuating equipment and material as well as troops/techs/mechanics/ect...until after the Walkers arrived and the Battle of Hoth began..





> Try again.



I JUST MADE AN ASSAY ABOUT OROCHIMARU! 

1:20.  They were leaving and Admiral Ozzel's "surprise" is what allowed the Imperials any of the success they achieved.  Lord Vader killed him on the assumption that the Rebels weren't already aware and didn't know they were coming.  An assumption that would have cost him any chance of capturing Skywalker on Hoth.



> You might want to try again when those X-Wings have been rated at over 7,000 gee's in vacuum.
> 
> Suspension of disbelief. Try it some time. Not that it matters considering how Luke's proton torpedo executed a 90 degree turn at 72,000 gee forces were exerted.



Not during any of the sequences when they were engaged with the Death Star.


----------



## Gig (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> I JUST MADE AN ASSAY ABOUT OROCHIMARU!
> 
> 1:20.  They were leaving and Admiral Ozzel's "surprise" is what allowed the Imperials any of the success they achieved.  Lord Vader killed him on the assumption that the Rebels weren't already aware and didn't know they were coming.  An assumption that would have cost him any chance of capturing Skywalker on Hoth.


Wrong he killed him due to his past incompetence and for being one of the worst officers in the imperial navy.

Also a point the Rebals knew the empire knew where they where the rebels did not know though throw that death squadron was right on there door step since probe droids are interplanetary scouts and are usually independent of fleets there sent out across vast areas of space to chart new hyperspace routes and to chart new worlds as well as to look for signs of rebellion. 

If the admiral Ozzel had came out where he was supposed to the rebals would not have detected the fleet and thus would have still thought they had time to prepare allowing the empire time to get ready to begin orbital bombardment allowing them to take out the Rebal base before they could even sound an alarm.

But since the admiral was incompetent they came out to close got detected and where forced to waste time preparing for a ground assault which took much longer than a BDZ would have taken allowing the Rebals to get away

 (4:09) As you can see here they did not even have the shield up until admiral Ozzel fucked up a gave them away by coming out of hyper space to close 
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6uQ1ROQm0k[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

And the Imperials would have wasted time attempting to sneak instead of instigating a blockade immediately, as Ozzel intended.  

As for the evacuation plans, the Rebels were loading up as fast as possible, leaving behind all the heavy equipment, and this was before the Star Destroyers appeared.  They were preparing their defense and loading the transports.  Any delay by the Imperials in setting up a blockade and launching a ground assault would have cost them any kind of victory.

Ozzel won the day and he died for it.


----------



## Gig (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> And the Imperials would have wasted time attempting to sneak instead of instigating a blockade immediately, as Ozzel intended.


Why would they need to sneak if there out of the Rebals sensors range which just happens to be well with in both there own attack and sensor range if they had come out of hyperspace where they where meant to they could have not only bombarded Hoth but they could have also ambushed the transports out of the range of the ion cannon 



Wesley said:


> Ozzel won the day and he died for it.


Ozzel was a retard and had one of the worst track records in the entire empire the only reason he was a admiral was because he was rich and bought his way to the rank of captain. He got the rank of admiral becuase Mara Jade did not trust him since he tried to kill her to hide that he was doing dodgy business behind the empire back and she suggested Vadar keep him under watchful eye to prevent him from continuing with his screw ups. 

Also Ozzel was wrong in his strategy since it obviously failed 

Now go get your eyes and ears tested then go and watch the film again (assuming you have watched it before) before you continue with this trolling maybe then you will have some idea of what your talking about.

Though I doubt it since you can’t even tell the difference between a male and a female so I can't see you understanding a good strategy from a bad one since it doe’s require higher brain functions that you seem to lack


----------



## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

Gig said:


> Why would they need to sneak if there out of the Rebals sensors range which just happens to be well with in both there own attack and sensor range if they had come out of hyperspace where they where meant to they could have not only bombarded Hoth but they could have also ambushed the transports out of the range of the ion cannon



We've already established they weren't going to be BDZing Hoth, even if their guns had that kind of range.  The offense to Lord Vader was the fact the Rebel's knew the Imperials were there, his assumption being that the Probe Driod had not already caused them to make a run for it.  If they had waited and prepared the assault, the Rebels would have gotten clean away.



> Ozzel was a retard and had one of the worst track records in the entire empire the only reason he was a admiral was because he was rich and that Mara Jade did not trust him and she suggested Vadar kept an eye on him to prevent him from screwing up even more.



Post-Mortem character assasination.  The fact is in the film he made the right call.


----------



## RAGING BONER (Nov 14, 2008)

uh...Vader solo's?


----------



## Ork (Nov 14, 2008)

~RAGING BONER~ said:


> uh...Vader solo's?



No...
lol.


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> We've already established they weren't going to be BDZing Hoth, even if their guns had that kind of range.  The offense to Lord Vader was the fact the Rebel's knew the Imperials were there, his assumption being that the Probe Driod had not already caused them to make a run for it.  If they had waited and prepared the assault, the Rebels would have gotten clean away.



Way to just completely ignore my post and work on the one that had a less detailed argument that wouldn't completely destroy you there.

Look. It would have taken weeks more for the Rebellion to get out of the base. All Ozzel's approach did was cause them to raise the Planetary shields and letting the Rebels know they where out of time. So they took what they could and ran, and because of that many of the Rebels where able to escape.

If Ozzel had used astriod belt as cover, they could have taken out all the major installations with TIE bombers, including the docking bay, the shield generator, and the ion cannon and leave the rebels stranded while the Empire landed directly on top of them. Ozzel screwed that up.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> The polar trench is, at the absolute high end, a couple hundred kilometers long and it takes the fighters several _minutes_ to reach fire position. So the relative speed (measured in meters or kilometers per second, not in g that is a unit of acceleration and doesn't apply here) of the X-Wings in the trench is going to be in the mach 10 range, maximum. And probably a _lot_ lower. Never mind that the rebels do not actually do virtually any dodging once they are inside the trench.



They slowed their attack speeds during the trench sequence once flights started entering the trench to make their bombing runs, which is why it was easy for the Tie-Fighters to shoot them down.



Wesley said:


> [/url]
> Assigned Moderators: Bass, Luna Laverne, Esponer, Phoenix, FitzChivalry, MechaTC, Hexa, halfhearted, troublesum-chan, Spy_Smasher, Zaru, Dirty Harry, Dream Brother, Hiroshi, Green Lantern, an object at rest cannot be stopped, Naruko, JediJaina, Kribaby, EvilMoogle, Ukoku Sanzo, Distracted, Reznor, Ryoma Nagare, Rhaella
> 
> Posted by:


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> No. They were preparing to leave, you have no idea how long it would've taken them had Ozzel not bungled the job and entered their sensor fields. Which is why the Rebels were able to accelerate that process to cost Vader his trap.



Accelerate what?  The only difference would have been a sense of urgency.  Otherwise the Rebels were making trade-offs of what they could save, forgetting, as Commander Skywalker put it, the heavy equipment.



> Except all Vader wanted to do was set up an interdiction around the planet before the Rebels at Echo Base knew they were being blockaded.



And Ozzel coming in close to the system allowed that to happen more quickly.  The Rebels were leaving, had the Empire waited, they may have had a clean getaway.



> This is a funny line.



Thank you.  I try.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Accelerate what?  The only difference would have been a sense of urgency.  Otherwise the Rebels were making trade-offs of what they could save, forgetting, as Commander Skywalker put it, the heavy equipment.



I guess subtle and tactical feints equate dropping half a dozen ISDs and a SSD right in front of the Rebel's sensors.



> And Ozzel coming in close to the system allowed that to happen more quickly.  The Rebels were leaving, had the Empire waited, they may have had a clean getaway.



Except they never started to prepare to evacuate till the Battle of Hoth was about to be underway.



> Thank you.  I try.



I'm sure you do.


----------



## Gig (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> And Ozzel coming in close to the system allowed that to happen more quickly.  The Rebels were leaving, had the Empire waited, they may have had a clean getaway.


Wrong irradiator fields prevents hyperspace travel to or from a system since it drags ships out of hyperspace or simply prevents them from entering in the first place. 

So if you great admiral Ozzel had done what a competent officer would have done the Rebals would have gotten raped by a vastly superior enemy with no method of retreat. 

Oh and before you say why did they not use the irradiator field anyway It takes preparation and precision for it to work to maximum effect


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> Except they never started to prepare to evacuate till the Battle of Hoth was about to be underway.



They were leaving as soon as they discovered the Probe Driod.

@Gig Interdictors do not appear in any of the films.  Even if they do, there's no evidence they were used at any point.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> They were leaving as soon as they discovered the Probe Driod.



No they weren't.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> No they weren't.



Dude, watch the clip.  General Reikan said they should begin the evacuation immediately after they found it.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes, key word being "they should" begin evacuation. They never actually started until they were preparing their ground defences, troops and anti-armor grounds, which as you know, is paradoxical.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yes, key word being "they should" begin evacuation. They never actually started until they were preparing their ground defences, troops and anti-armor grounds, which as you know, is paradoxical.



The ranking military commander of Echo Base says to begin the evacuation and it's merely a suggestion?


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Reeikan doesn't outrank Leia just because he's the field commander. Secondly again, fielding tons of men and equipment first before the evacuation also suggests your wrong again.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> Reeikan doesn't outrank Leia just because he's the field commander. Secondly again, fielding tons of men and equipment first before the evacuation also suggests your wrong again.



Prove Leia's military position within the Alliance.  She is not even once refered to as anything other than "Princess".  As for the men and the equipment, they were obvioulsy putting their lives on the line in the event of a ground attack, and as it turned out, rightfully so.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

How does that change the fact that the majority of troopers were fielded against the Empire's ground forces, and those said troopers make up the aforementioned majority of Echo Base's population?

You aren't shown anyone evacuating or preparing until right instantly before the ground combat beings.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> How does that change the fact that the majority of troopers were fielded against the Empire's ground forces, and those said troopers make up the aforementioned majority of Echo Base's population?
> 
> You aren't shown anyone evacuating or preparing until right instantly before the ground combat beings.



Yeah, the Rebels were clearly sitting around with thumbs up their asses all because the Transports or equipment weren't depicted as being readied in any way, shape, or form.

And lives over equipment or equipment over lives, that's a decision the Rebels had to make only they could make it since they knew their situation better than anyone else.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley repeating the same damn thing ad naseum.  You are only shown them preparing right before the Battle of Hoth starts.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> Wesley repeating the same damn thing ad naseum.  You are only shown them preparing right before the Battle of Hoth starts.



Since we don't have an exact Timeline for events, the Battle of Hoth could have lasted minutes or days for all we know.  The fact remains though that the order was giving as soon as they discovered the Probe Driod and that had the Imperial Fleet not been deployed as Ozzel had intended, there would have been a delay in launching ground forces and initating the blockade.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Since we don't have an exact Timeline for events, the Battle of Hoth could have lasted minutes or days for all we know.



Burden proof is on you to prove it, stop weasling and do so.




> The fact remains though that the order was giving as soon as they discovered the Probe Driod and that had the Imperial Fleet not been deployed as Ozzel had intended, there would have been a delay in launching ground forces and initating the blockade.



Except that Ozzel was the one who fucked it up to begin with. Try again.

Burden of proof is for you to prove otherwise since your claiming it. Otherwise I'll accept that as a concession.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

If you're just going to ignore what I said, I think we're done here.


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## Fang (Nov 14, 2008)

So I take it that's your final post as a concession to the fact you have not provided a shred of evidence supporting your groundless claims on Ozzel not screwning up Vader's plans?

Kay.


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## Wesley (Nov 14, 2008)

TWF said:


> So I take it that's your final post as a concession to the fact you have not provided a shred of evidence supporting your groundless claims on Ozzel not screwning up Vader's plans?
> 
> Kay.



Your proof that Vader even had a plan?


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 15, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Since we don't have an exact Timeline for events, the Battle of Hoth could have lasted minutes or days for all we know.  The fact remains though that the order was giving as soon as they discovered the Probe Driod and that had the Imperial Fleet not been deployed as Ozzel had intended, there would have been a delay in launching ground forces and initating the blockade.



The Battle of Hoth was over with in less than an hour.



Now, you can refer to the clips posted earlier and see exactly where most of the combat was taking place. The snow speeders paid a very small part in the battle. In fact Luke did all of his fighting in the general area of Echo Station 5-7.

The Power Generator was destroyed right after the Walkers overan Station 3-8. The distance between 3-8 and the power generator was about 17 kilometers. 

The Walkers only had to move about 2/3rds of that distance between the beginning of the battle and taking out the power generator. AT-ATs have a top speed of about 60 kilometers an hour and barely even slowed down due to the Rebel Assault on them. Assuming they where only going half their top speed the power generator would have been destroyed in 30 minutes or less of the start of the battle.

After the power generator was destroyed Vader landed with the troops directly on top of echo base and was inside in the span of a few minutes.

But anyhow, the real purpose of setting up the Imperial blockade properly before the rebels where alerted had to deal with preveting ships from entering hyperspace. As massive as the imperial ships where, they created Gravity wells, and hyperspace travel is extremely dangerous if attempted from within one. Had the fleet been positioned properly first the picket would have been enough to prevent the Rebel Transports from escaping, even with the help of the Ion Canon. Because they came out of hyperspace directly on top of the planet many of imperial cruisers where within Hoth's Gravity well and did not greatly hinder the Rebel's escape plans.


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## Wesley (Nov 15, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> The Battle of Hoth was over with in less than an hour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is very interesting.  Any idea how much time elasped between the Rebels finding the Probe Driod and the Empire entering the system?



> But anyhow, the real purpose of setting up the Imperial blockade properly before the rebels where alerted had to deal with preveting ships from entering hyperspace. As massive as the imperial ships where, they created Gravity wells, and hyperspace travel is extremely dangerous if attempted from within one. Had the fleet been positioned properly first the picket would have been enough to prevent the Rebel Transports from escaping, even with the help of the Ion Canon. Because they came out of hyperspace directly on top of the planet many of imperial cruisers where within Hoth's Gravity well and did not greatly hinder the Rebel's escape plans.



This you'll have to prove.  I've never heard of ships generating gravity wells without projectors.  Maybe if a ship was directly in the flight path you couldn't hyper out, but they aren't so big they bloat out the sky.


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## Cy (Nov 15, 2008)

Its stated (or at least heavily implied) in BFG and other books that only a single ship is needed to perform an exterminatus. While I don't know if Cruisers of Frigates can, any battleship class ships are capable of doing it on their own provided they're equipped with the proper stuff (which generally they are). Against a lot of strong enemies (like nid hive fleets) they generally send several smaller ships to exterminatus a planet and get out before the enemy can really react.


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## WarriorS (Nov 15, 2008)

Agreed. Things like Cyclonic Torpedoes and such don't seem to need anything more than one volley to destroy a planet, though these aren't standard issue. But only one ship is ever needed. The reason there are more than one ship in that video is because it'd be retarded to send out a ship with an Exterminus weapon and not guard it from possible enemy action.


----------



## Ork (Nov 15, 2008)

Cy said:


> Its stated (or at least heavily implied) in BFG and other books that only a single ship is needed to perform an exterminatus. While I don't know if Cruisers of Frigates can, any battleship class ships are capable of doing it on their own provided they're equipped with the proper stuff (which generally they are). Against a lot of strong enemies (like nid hive fleets) they generally send several smaller ships to exterminatus a planet and get out before the enemy can really react.



Truth.
Though I provided all the evidence down to page numbers for that, maybe they'll see reason if its more than just me arguing for it.
Afaik, any ship that has a prow weapon, can have it replaced for a Planet killer gun, question is wether or not first edition rules count for that. But there is other evidence that ships don't even need it to perform exterminatus, the gun is for planetary DESTRUCTION. Not BDZ.

There are many different types of weapons capable of BDZ'ing a planet it wh40kverse.
Plenty that actually destroy the planet too.


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## WarriorS (Nov 15, 2008)

Absence said:


> Truth.
> Though I provided all the evidence down to page numbers for that, maybe they'll see reason if its more than just me arguing for it.
> Afaik, any ship that has a prow weapon, can have it replaced for a Planet killer gun, question is wether or not first edition rules count for that. But there is other evidence that ships don't even need it to perform exterminatus, the gun is for planetary DESTRUCTION. Not BDZ.
> 
> ...



No, the Planet-Killer gun is completely unique to the ship itself. Ships armed for Exterminus (They must be specifically armed for it) are armed with things such as Virus Bombs, the aforementioned Cyclonic Torpedoes, and other such weapons.

There aren't too many things that can _destroy_ a planet; wipe it clean, yes. But absolutely destroying it is a feat that only the Planet-Killer has achieved. The Blackstone Fortresses were able to make a sun go supernova, though.

And the "Not escaping due to gravity wells" stuff or whatever that bullshit was is completely false when talking about Hoth. If it's true, then how the hell does the Falcon hyper away from the Executor?


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 15, 2008)

Wesley said:


> This is very interesting.  Any idea how much time elasped between the Rebels finding the Probe Driod and the Empire entering the system?



The Probe Droid infiltrated deep within the Rebel Base unseen and sent the report back to the Empire of the base's existence. The signal was relayed to from the probe droid at light speed to a communications station in system that transmits messages at hyperspace speeds, which then relayed it to Vader's ship. Where it was discussed on his bridge. The process would take about an hour.

At the same time Han Solo and Chewbacca spent about an hour going out and destroying the probe droid. So they two events happened at almost the same time.

Vader's fleet was in the same sector as the Hoth System. As such, he could travel there by hyperspace in the span of a few hours.

[/quote]
This you'll have to prove.  I've never heard of ships generating gravity wells without projectors.  Maybe if a ship was directly in the flight path you couldn't hyper out, but they aren't so big they bloat out the sky.[/QUOTE]

Theres not much to prove really. The Empire even builds ships later on specifically to use for interdiction purposes that are capable of producing gravity well the size of a planet.


----------



## Ork (Nov 15, 2008)

WarriorS said:


> No, the Planet-Killer gun is completely unique to the ship itself. Ships armed for Exterminus (They must be specifically armed for it) are armed with things such as Virus Bombs, the aforementioned Cyclonic Torpedoes, and other such weapons.
> 
> There aren't too many things that can _destroy_ a planet; wipe it clean, yes. But absolutely destroying it is a feat that only the Planet-Killer has achieved. The Blackstone Fortresses were able to make a sun go supernova, though.
> 
> And the "Not escaping due to gravity wells" stuff or whatever that bullshit was is completely false when talking about Hoth. If it's true, then how the hell does the Falcon hyper away from the Executor?



The planetkiller can be equipped on any ship with a prow weapon, replacing said weapon, and as I said, I think the smallest ships with a prow weapon are cruisers... possibly battlecruisers.
Its like a Nova cannon, you can equip it on any ship for reasources.


----------



## WarriorS (Nov 15, 2008)

Absence said:


> The planetkiller can be equipped on any ship with a prow weapon, replacing said weapon, and as I said, I think the smallest ships with a prow weapon are cruisers... possibly battlecruisers.
> Its like a Nova cannon, you can equip it on any ship for reasources.



I'm almost dead-sure that you're wrong on this. The Planet-Killer's gun is built right into the structure of the ship, is _huge_, and requires the circular well that defines the ship's shape to help power it. I've never seen a list where it could be taken by another ship, as the gun itself really is a ship unto itself.


----------



## Ork (Nov 15, 2008)

WarriorS said:


> I'm almost dead-sure that you're wrong on this. The Planet-Killer's gun is built right into the structure of the ship, is _huge_, and requires the circular well that defines the ship's shape to help power it. I've never seen a list where it could be taken by another ship, as the gun itself really is a ship unto itself.



You're talking about Abaddons Planet Killer. 
Im talking about first Edition Extermiator ships that were equipped with a weapon called "Planet killer"
It was a gun.
It was buyable.


From the first edition rulebook
"The attacking fleet is escorting Extermiantors, ships capable of laying waste to entire planetary populations or even obliterating all life on a world in a matter of hours. All had heard of Exterminatus with fusion torpedoes, virus bombs and mass drivers, but to know the enemy had the ability to destroy an entire planet, not just all life on it, must have been the most chilling thought that any naval crewman had ever faced."

Read back, I already posted this.
Abaddons planet killer is an entirely different type of ship.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 15, 2008)

Geez, this thing won't die. I'm too lazy to catch up with it, but is Absence now arguing things based on some obscure quote which completely contradicts the fact of Abaddon's planet killer being such a threat?


----------



## strongarm85 (Nov 15, 2008)

I had interesting couple of posts a page back about the battle of Hoth.


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## Cy (Nov 16, 2008)

In current BFG only the Planet Killer ship has a planet killer gun. All other ships can only exterminatus a planet.


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## Ork (Nov 16, 2008)

Cy said:


> In current BFG only the Planet Killer ship has a planet killer gun. All other ships can only exterminatus a planet.



Yeah, but it wasnt an argument that The Empire can destroy planets with them NOW, just pointing out that the empire ships are on that sort of powescale. Multiple people claiming that one ship can't perform exterminatus or BDZ.


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## thrawn (inactive) (Nov 18, 2008)

If the empire was pre endor ,then wont Thrawn still be alive and the Emperor isnt stupid enough to not send his best commander to attack an unknown but powerful enemy.


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## Estrecca (Nov 18, 2008)

thrawn said:


> If the empire was pre endor ,then wont Thrawn still be alive and the Emperor isnt stupid enough to not send his best commander to attack an unknown but powerful enemy.



The Emperor WAS stupid enough to have his (allegedly) best Admiral doing extremely unimportant work in the Unknown Regions in the OTL and it is believed to have arranged events to ensure that Rukh's assassination worked from Byss. When the Empire no longer enjoyed overwhelming advantages against the forces of the New Republic. No guarantees of Thrawn getting to shine in this one, either.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

Admiral Thrawn's work in the Unknown Regions was more important to the future of the Empire than any other individual's in the Empire.  It was productive, there were clear results, men and resources were used in an effective and very real and beneficial way.  Tarkin's science projects, Vader's crusade, none of it can compare to Admiral Thrawn's work.


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## Estrecca (Nov 18, 2008)

Let me put this in other words. As far as everybody in Coruscant (almost certainly including Palpatine himself) was concerned, Grand Admiral Papa Smurf was doing irrelevant stuff in the farthest reaches of the galaxy. If Thrawn's activities there were supposed to prepare for the arrival of the Vong (as some have theorized), it certainly wasn't a high priority for the Emperor. Otherwise, it stands to reason that Thrawn wouldn't have been quite as starved for resources (particularly manpower) in later years.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

The Emperor and Thrawn looked at things in completely different ways, especially in Palpatine's later years where mysticism seemed to have taken up most of his outlook.


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## Estrecca (Nov 18, 2008)

Again, not my point. I do not argue that Palpatine was the equivalent of a religious fanatic and he got even worse after his rebirth, when he became a batshit insane Dracula cosplayer. Seriously, this is a good fan-recreation of what his clothing looks like in Dark Empire.

My point is that even if Thrawn is his usual brilliant self, there is no reason to believe that Palpatine will allow him to direct the campaign against the IoM. If the OTL pattern is followed, he will probably end hunting down Tyranid Hive Fleets somewhere in Ultima Segmentum.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

I appreciate the point, but I have to disagree.  There weren't any oppenents for Thrawn to fight during the Original Trilogy.  The Rebels weren't a huge military threat and besides that it was a personal quest for Vader and the Empire to take them down themselves.  So, Thrawn expands the Empire's influence in secret, putting his talent for dealing with alien cultures to the most use.

As for having him fight the IoM, he was recalled to fight the New Republic.  If the Emperor hadn't died at Endor and the Empire hadn't fallen like it did, he would have remained in the Unknown Regions, doing his work.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 18, 2008)

The Rebellion was created for the sole purpose of being hunted down by the Sith Lords after all. Starkiller and all.


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## Heartgobbler (Nov 18, 2008)

How do we assume the space travel works for this fight?

Starwarsverse has hyperspace while WH has warp space. Or are we assuming that both exist in the same world?


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## Estrecca (Nov 18, 2008)

Point duly noted and it is reasonable enough for me to accept. As a final nitpick, however, I'll point that he was not recalled from the Unknown Regions. He contacted what passed for Imperial authorities following the fall of Isard's regime and as last of the available Grand Admirals he was granted effective control over the rests of the Galactic Empire.


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## Ork (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't think it was stupidity that had thawn in the outer reaches, I always assumed it was racism aka, hatred of all non humans in the Imperial Military that had him out there.
I guess it can be tied to stupidity though.


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## Fang (Nov 18, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Point duly noted and it is reasonable enough for me to accept. As a final nitpick, however, I'll point that he was not recalled from the Unknown Regions. He contacted what passed for Imperial authorities following the fall of Isard's regime and as last of the available Grand Admirals he was granted effective control over the rests of the Galactic Empire.



Isard was aware of his activation and actions in the Wild Regions and Unknown Region.

Also it was heavily implicated in Outbound Flight and the Hand of Thrawn Duology that Thrawn was preparing the galaxy for the "far outsiders" much as Revan was.

Also since Palpatine isn't assumed to be under PIS or CIS, Thrawn will be active in the campaign against the Imperium of Man.

As for the differences between Hyperspace travel and Warp travel, Hyperspace literally allows one to move millions of times the speed of C, the other considered is much slower.

Also as a point, Hyperspace traveling SW ships don't have to worry about turbulence or storms like the impeding IoM ships do.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

TWF said:


> As for the differences between Hyperspace travel and Warp travel, Hyperspace literally allows one to move millions of times the speed of C, the other considered is much slower.
> 
> Also as a point, Hyperspace traveling SW ships don't have to worry about turbulence or storms like the impeding IoM ships do.



Warp Travel is potentionally much better than Hyperspace.  There have been incidencies where a Fleet arrived before a distress signal was sent.  It's simply a matter of mastery and the whimsy of the Warp.  Speculatively, if the Warp weren't a nightmarish place created by Eldar decadence and Ork warmongering, it'd be a much safer and more practical method of travel, much like the Webway is.

Otherwise, Warpstorms do generate mass shadows and gravity distoritions, so they'd gobble Star Wars ships up more surely than Imperium ships.


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## Fang (Nov 18, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Warp Travel is potentionally much better than Hyperspace.



Wrong. Never has this been implicated, state or otherwise claimed.



> Otherwise, Warpstorms do generate mass shadows and gravity distoritions, *so they'd gobble Star Wars ships up more surely than Imperium ships.*



Now your just making unfounded claims.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

TWF said:


> Wrong. Never has this been implicated, state or otherwise claimed.



I did just do that while citing an example of what can happen when using the Warp.  The Old Ones, the ones responsible for creating the Orks and the Eldar and fighting the C'tan had a placid Immaterium to work with, and presumably if it weren't a horrible, chaotic place, divided and set against itself, you could wield and use it as you wished with a mere thought.



> Now your just making unfounded claims.



Not at all.  Warpstorms generate gravity distortions and can even be orbited after a fashion, as Crafthworld Uthwie does.


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## Heartgobbler (Nov 18, 2008)

SW ships can't travel through Warp.

A Warp travel cannot be calculated by computers like hyperspace jump. It takes a psyker specifically trained for the task to direct a ship through the warp. 

Also, even with active shields (shields breaking down in the warp means instant, demon-induced death to everyone involved) some insidents like random demonic possessions do happen from time to time. The Empire ships are totally not trained to handle that.


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## strongarm85 (Nov 18, 2008)

Its a good thing they don't have to travel using the warp at all. Your standard Military Imperial military vessel during this period that is capable of going into hyperspace can travel at thousands of times the speed of light.


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## Fang (Nov 18, 2008)

Actually its millions of times the speed of light. It took half a day for Padme's ship to go from the far outer rim to the galactic core.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

strongarm85 said:


> Its a good thing they don't have to travel using the warp at all. Your standard Military Imperial military vessel during this period that is capable of going into hyperspace can travel at thousands of times the speed of light.



The point is in a setting where the Warp, or rather the Immaterium exists to be used, it is either a calm, settled place, free to be used in safety by those with the means, or it's Hell where warpstorms bubble up and subside at random and obliterate anyone unfortunate enough to be caught by them.  The implication being that Hyperdrive routes would be at best random and dangerous and at worst, completely unreliable and impossible.

The Warp is not by it's nature a bad thing.  It's simply free to be used and distorted by those that inhabitat it and the material world.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 18, 2008)

This is still going on?

Would someone care to give me a quick update on what's being discussed now?


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## strongarm85 (Nov 18, 2008)

Currently, we're disscussing the possible effects that the warp would have on ships traveling through hyperspace.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 18, 2008)

I would say none, considering that the Warp and hyperspace are completely different dimensions/methods of travel.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> I would say none, considering that the Warp and hyperspace are completely different dimensions/methods of travel.



Mostly in regards to warpstorms, their randomness, the inherent weakness in Hyperspace Travel, and just how much havoc will be reaped along hyperspace routes.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 18, 2008)

I doubt it would have an effect unless an Imperial ship flew right into the Eye of Terror or a storm more than 100 light-years wide. Of course they can use probe droids to map the galaxy and avoid these things.


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## Wesley (Nov 18, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> I doubt it would have an effect unless an Imperial ship flew right into the Eye of Terror or a storm more than 100 light-years wide. Of course they can use probe droids to map the galaxy and avoid these things.



Warpstorms come in all shapes, sizes, durations, and frequencies.  Some last for centuries.  Some last only seconds.  Sometimes around planets.  Sometimes they simply appear in the middle of nowhere.  They wouldn't have to be huge to drag a ship out of Hyperspace, nor would they have to be large to destroy them.  They cannot be reliably mapped either, due to their nature.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 18, 2008)

Except that the ships in hyperspace are moving so fast that they would barely interact with them at all unless they were light - years across.


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## thrawn (inactive) (Nov 19, 2008)

When a thread is made and the creator didnt mention that CIS or PIS is involved then shouldnt we assume that it doesnt happen right?


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## Heartgobbler (Nov 19, 2008)

I am sorry, I also don't have the time to read through the whole thread (I am posting during a break at work) What else has been discussed so far? 

land warfare / spaceships / weapons of mass destruction?

I am not sure about space warfare, since they aren't really compatible. WH4000 don't have space fighters in the SW sense. They have fleets of smaller spaceships aboard but they are the size of a heavy bomber and up. They can only be considered "fighters" in the context of the scale. Also, the technology of WH4000 is so advanced sometimes and sometimes so primitive. (I remember a picture depicting a group of hundred men, led by a priest, using a system of ropes to load a giant cannon)

As for land combat... the Empire performance is tough to measure. Some sources describe the stormtrooper armour as a sort of light power armour. But in the movies, they can be taken down by an ewok with a slingshot.

I suppose the Imperium has a vast adventage of numbers while Empire has the adventage of equipment, as all their soldiers arrive in stormtrooper armours. 

When it comes down to heavy equipment however, the Imperium has a serious adventage.

A titan seems similar to an AT-AT in the basic principles ( A large walker with heavy firepower that is a ridiculously easy target but makes up for that with powerful shields, unable to get up if you make it fall). However, the titan of comparable size has vastly superior firepower. A Warlord class titan has as  many guns in one arm as a whole AT-AT. A rare Imperator Titan has a gun that you can drive a tank into.


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Except that the ships in hyperspace are moving so fast that they would barely interact with them at all unless they were light - years across.



Interdictors imply otherwise.  I've even read where a large asteriod was used to drag a Resort Liner of Star Destroyer proportions out of Hyperspace.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Interdictors imply otherwise.  I've even read where a large asteriod was used to drag a Resort Liner of Star Destroyer proportions out of Hyperspace.



Not even similar class of hyperdrive for one. A Star Destroyer has a military grade hyperdrive rating, a star liner doesn't. The only times I can remember hyperspace travel being impeded is through planetary mass shadows and gravitys or through interdictors.

And the rating of the class of hyperdrive does in fact make a huge difference. Anyway the IoM still gets stomped.

Over 400 million star systems are at the Empire's resources for their beck and call, Eclipse class Star Dreadnoughts were already under production after the Battle of Yavin, multiple Super Star Destroyers, massive industrial complexes and bases that completely dominate the IoM and warships that take less then 1/10th of the time to produce that are equal to superior to the juggernaught the IoM needs.


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

TWF said:


> Not even similar class of hyperdrive for one. A Star Destroyer has a military grade hyperdrive rating, a star liner doesn't. The only times I can remember hyperspace travel being impeded is through planetary mass shadows and gravitys or through interdictors.
> 
> And the rating of the class of hyperdrive does in fact make a huge difference.



Hyperdrive Rating relates to the speed of ships.  I've never heard an instance where it made a difference between whether or not they could go to Lightspeed.  And Warpstorms do generate gravity distortions, so they will pull ships out of Hyperspace and curbstomp them.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

Hyperspace and Warp are completely different. Hyperspace is a completely different dimension then the four dimensions that ships usually travel in.

The Warp won't affect it.


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

TWF said:


> Hyperspace and Warp are completely different. Hyperspace is a completely different dimension then the four dimensions that ships usually travel in.
> 
> The Warp won't affect it.



Warpstorms will because they exist in real-space.  Like asteriods, moons, planets, and stars.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Warpstorms will because they exist in real-space.  Like asteriods, moons, planets, and stars.



Good thing SW ships can account for the movements and paths of astrological and celestial paths and bodies.

Not in the Star Wars universe, there is no equivalence for Hyperspace and the Warp. And the Warp is stuck in the milky way galaxy of the IoM. And without the Astropaths capable of allowning IoM ships to transverse outside of their own galaxy, that isn't happing in any case.


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

TWF said:


> Good thing SW ships can account for the movements and paths of astrological and celestial paths and bodies.



Only after mapping a route, and Warpstorms are too random to map.  They could disappear or appear at any time.



> Not in the Star Wars universe, there is no equivalence for Hyperspace and the Warp. And the Warp is stuck in the milky way galaxy of the IoM. And without the Astropaths capable of allowning IoM ships to transverse outside of their own galaxy, that isn't happing in any case.



If the Warp is calm, they may not need Astropaths and the Astronomicon, or at least the dependency is significantly reduced.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Only after mapping a route, and Warpstorms are too random to map.  They could disappear or appear at any time.



Not happening the SW/EU galaxy, not happening in the SW/EU universe for that matter considering how the Warp does not exist outside of the IoM's own home galaxy.

And no EM already explained the futility of this argument.





> If the Warp is calm, they may not need Astropaths and the Astronomicon, or at least the dependency is significantly reduced.



Which almost never happens.


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

TWF said:


> Not happening the SW/EU galaxy, not happening in the SW/EU universe for that matter considering how the Warp does not exist outside of the IoM's own home galaxy.



For the purposes of debate it does, unless said to be otherwise.



> And no EM already explained the futility of this argument.



And he's wrong, as I pointed out that Warpstorm is essentionally an Interdictor Field that will seriously screw anyone that gets caught in it.



> Which almost never happens.



The Immaterium's natural state is to be calm.  The turmoil in the 40k Galaxy keeps it from being so.  If it were calm, it'd be much less dangerous and much easier and more practical to use.  It's up to the terms of debate to decide the state of the Immaterium, whether it's calm or stormy.

If it were calm, I believe it would imply an overall advantage for the IoM.  If it were stormy, it'd be bad for everyone participating.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

Wesley said:


> For the purposes of debate it does, unless said to be otherwise.



Wrong again. The Warp Gods are contained in a singular galaxy in their own univese, so does the Warp itself.

Equivalence isn't working for this.



> And he's wrong, as I pointed out that Warpstorm is essentionally an Interdictor Field that will seriously screw anyone that gets caught in it.



Wrong. When Solo's task force destroyed the Razor's Kiss and crippled the Iron Fist, they needed several planets own gravity shadows to keep them in.




> The Immaterium's natural state is to be calm.  The turmoil in the 40k Galaxy keeps it from being so.  If it were calm, it'd be much less dangerous and much easier and more practical to use.  It's up to the terms of debate to decide the state of the Immaterium, whether it's calm or stormy.



And ignorning the fact that you can not use the equivalence rule for the Warp, the IoM has no capacity to actually tame the Immaterium in the first place. 



> If it were calm, I believe it would imply an overall advantage for the IoM.  If it were stormy, it'd be bad for everyone participating.



Won't affect Hyperspace travel at all. Hyperspace is an entirely seperate dimension unto itself that doesn't follow the laws of the other four dimensions of the normal universe, considering how the Warp has nothing of the sort in that sort of capability, its not happening, nor can the IoM do anything to attemp so nor do they have Interdictor ships through the Warp like the GE does.


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## WarriorS (Nov 19, 2008)

Warp travel is never better than Hyperspace. It takes weeks to months to get to Terra, depending how far out on the Rim you are, and it's really closer to 16th/17th ships sailing across the oceans, but the waters generally vary from "choppy" to "giant whirlpool at the end of PotC3".

The only way I could see the Warp being an advantage is if they accidentally get transported backwards in time and arrive early.

I do question, however, how quickly Star Wars Probe Droids can accurately chart hyperspace routes in another universe. Can someone cite when they've actually been used to chart massive routes in a short period, because I can't think of any. Remember that Hoth might be out of the way, but it's still on star charts. Plus, why is there still an area of the galaxy called the "Unknown Regions"?

I'm not arguing that 40K could beat SW in ship-to-ship combat, but I think people aren't considering how much time it might take before the Empire can truly get up on the offensive. Not that the Imperium would be much faster, if at all, though...


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

TWF said:


> Wrong again. The Warp Gods are contained in a singular galaxy in their own univese, so does the Warp itself.
> 
> Equivalence isn't working for this.



You completely ignored what I said.  Besides that, the nature of the Tyranids, a race that have consumed a dozen galaxies, would indicate that the Immaterium exists throughout the universe, even though I suspect that disturbances exist within galaxies occupied by emapthetic speices alone.



> Wrong. When Solo's task force destroyed the Razor's Kiss and crippled the Iron Fist, they needed several planets own gravity shadows to keep them in.



Most likely because Interdictors are easy to destroy and aren't reliable for holding down super capital ships.



> And ignorning the fact that you can not use the equivalence rule for the Warp, the IoM has no capacity to actually tame the Immaterium in the first place.



Since it's an integral part of the IoM and 40k setting, it's existence has to be defined by the rules of the debate.  Whether it's the Hellish place in the original setting with all the warts it inflicts on the material universe or if it's in it's natural, calm, state of being.  There IS a difference and a significant one at that.



> Won't affect Hyperspace travel at all. Hyperspace is an entirely seperate dimension unto itself that doesn't follow the laws of the other four dimensions of the normal universe, considering how the Warp has nothing of the sort in that sort of capability, its not happening, nor can the IoM do anything to attemp so nor do they have Interdictor ships through the Warp like the GE does.



You're ignoring everything I've said.



WarriorS said:


> Warp travel is never better than Hyperspace. It takes weeks to months to get to Terra, depending how far out on the Rim you are, and it's really closer to 16th/17th ships sailing across the oceans, but the waters generally vary from "choppy" to "giant whirlpool at the end of PotC3".
> 
> The only way I could see the Warp being an advantage is if they accidentally get transported backwards in time and arrive early.



My arguement is that the whole "transported backwards in time" thing is not an accident.  It's merely an indication of what is possible by using the Warp with travel.  The reason it is not usually done is not because it's impossible, but merely that it is extremely difficult to do due to the nature of the Immaterium and the limitations of psychers to manipulate it.

If the Immaterium is in it's natural state, it's very easy and safe to use.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

The Unknown Regions is the only part of the known galaxy that has not been fully charted or astrologically mapped. And aside from relatively recent contact with the Chiss Ascendecy since 25 BBY to 17 years after the Battle of Endor, its the last unknown in the galaxy.

Aside from of course, extragalactic space such as the galaxy that the Yuuzhan Vong hailed from. 

And the Galactic Empire's strong point is that it is always mobilized and prepared for war, they possess hundreds of thousands of destroyers, cruisers, frigates and corvettes actively patrolling their territories. And the fact of the matter is they have the resources to call upon from over 12 million star systems.

Also there is a smaller galactic spiral within the actual galaxy itself of Star Wars, which was showcased aboard on of the Star Destroyers in Vader's Death Squadron during The Empire Strikes Back.


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## Fang (Nov 19, 2008)

Wesley said:


> You completely ignored what I said.  Besides that, the nature of the Tyranids, a race that have consumed a dozen galaxies, would indicate that the Immaterium exists throughout the universe, even though I suspect that disturbances exist within galaxies occupied by emapthetic speices alone.



No such indication or claim was ever referenced in anything to do with the manner or way that the Tyranids moved throughout the universe. And if so, the Warp Gods would specifically *not* be chained to the milky way galaxy.

So no.



> Most likely because Interdictors are easy to destroy and aren't reliable for holding down super capital ships.



Had nothing to do with what I'm talking about at all. And its been mentioned several times when unknown celestial bodies are imposed in the way of a hyperspace traveling ship, it pulls itself out of hyperspace to calculate an alternative route or microjump away from the anomoly and continue again along its way.



> Since it's an integral part of the IoM and 40k setting, it's existence has to be defined by the rules of the debate.  Whether it's the Hellish place in the original setting with all the warts it inflicts on the material universe or if it's in it's natural, calm, state of being.  There IS a difference and a significant one at that.



Wrong. The Warp Gods are, despite their mastery and control over the Immaterium, bound to a single galaxy, and exist through the Warp in that singular galactic level, not on a universal one.

And considering how the Warp Gods and its Daemons are not allies of the Imperium of Man, its not helping them even if they wanted to.

And aside from that, the Warp does not exist in its own universe as the fundamental means of travel through the entirety of that said universe, thus there is no overlap, nor are Warp and Hyperspace even remotely similar in mechanics or function.





> You're ignoring everything I've said.



You have nothing substanial to bring to the table.




> My arguement is that the whole "transported backwards in time" thing is not an accident.  It's merely an indication of what is possible by using the Warp with travel.



Which only happens almost in the context of the odds for the Imperium of Man's ships or any other ones, barring the Chaos followers, in an astronomical rate against them.

Meaning your again bring up plot devices of the day.



> The reason it is not usually done is not because it's impossible, but merely that it is extremely difficult to do due to the nature of the Immaterium and the limitations of psychers to manipulate it.



Because we actively see Psykers and Astropaths routinely traveling backwards in time constantly and consistantly in Warhammer 40,000 amiright?



> If the Immaterium is in it's natural state, it's very easy and safe to use.



Except for 98% of the time that in current WH40K, the IoM with its most seasoned Navigators and Astropaths consider it luckly to arrive at their destination within a few weeks even from a few dozen light years away.

No, they don't control it, they can barely rein it enough to get to their point of safey and the universal overlapping rule does not allow for Hyperspace and Warp to be equalize with each other.

That said, SW ships can with impunity travel to and fro striking against IoM worlds and systems and the Astromotican can barely coordinate its navy in its own home galaxy.


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## Wesley (Nov 19, 2008)

TWF said:


> No such indication or claim was ever referenced in anything to do with the manner or way that the Tyranids moved throughout the universe. And if so, the Warp Gods would specifically *not* be chained to the milky way galaxy.
> 
> So no.



Tyranids are a race of Psykers.  For them to communicate, they need the Immaterium.  It's not very hard to understand this.

As for the Warp Gods, I'm not entirely sure if they're stuck to the 40k galaxy or if they're universal in nature.  I would imagine that they can only manifest if the conditions in an area are met.  Like if there were no fighting in the 40k Galaxy, there would be fuel for the fire when summoning a Blood Thirster.



> Had nothing to do with what I'm talking about at all. And its been mentioned several times when unknown celestial bodies are imposed in the way of a hyperspace traveling ship, it pulls itself out of hyperspace to calculate an alternative route or microjump away from the anomoly and continue again along its way.



Maybe.  Ship destruction has occured from crashing into unknown objects though, and Warpstorms are pretty darn dangerous both within and without.  There's a good chance merely being close to one would drive everyone on board a ship mad.



> Wrong. The Warp Gods are, despite their mastery and control over the Immaterium, bound to a single galaxy, and exist through the Warp in that singular galactic level, not on a universal one.



I've read conflicting stories.



> And considering how the Warp Gods and its Daemons are not allies of the Imperium of Man, its not helping them even if they wanted to.



I haven't even mentioned them.



> And aside from that, the Warp does not exist in its own universe as the fundamental means of travel through the entirety of that said universe, thus there is no overlap, nor are Warp and Hyperspace even remotely similar in mechanics or function.



You keep ignoring everything I've said.  Are you not aware that because the Warp is Hell, that's why Warpstorms occur?  If you want to get rid of Warpstorms, you have to calm down the Warp.



> You have nothing substanial to bring to the table.



You're refusing to understand what I'm saying.



> Which only happens almost in the context of the odds for the Imperium of Man's ships or any other ones, barring the Chaos followers, in an astronomical rate against them.
> 
> Meaning your again bring up plot devices of the day.



What?



> Because we actively see Psykers and Astropaths routinely traveling backwards in time constantly and consistantly in Warhammer 40,000 amiright?



Temporal Manipulation is not unknown, but it's a highly ranked skill.  I imagine it's much easier to do it while in the Warp, but since the Warp is the Warp, it's too dangerous and difficult unless under ideal conditions.



> Except for 98% of the time that in current WH40K, the IoM with its most seasoned Navigators and Astropaths consider it luckly to arrive at their destination within a few weeks even from a few dozen light years away.
> 
> No, they don't control it, they can barely rein it enough to get to their point of safey and the universal overlapping rule does not allow for Hyperspace and Warp to be equalize with each other.
> 
> That said, SW ships can with impunity travel to and fro striking against IoM worlds and systems and the Astromotican can barely coordinate its navy in its own home galaxy.



Which is why it's important to define the nature of the Immaterium in the terms of debate.  On one hand, you've got a calm version that the IoM can use freely without worry.  On the other, you've got Hell bubbling up at random throughout the universe.


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## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Tyranids are a race of Psykers.



Only collectively. You take out the lead warrior or psyker, they become confused and even Blanks barely register to the normal warrior or Genestealer.



> For them to communicate, they need the Immaterium.  It's not very hard to understand this.



First direct proof is required for this before we go any further.

Then either you need if its some differing form of the Immaterium or something that is radically different then what is used in the Milky Way Galaxy for the Eldar/Dark Eldar/Orks/Imperium of Man/Tau Empire, ect...



> As for the Warp Gods, I'm not entirely sure if they're stuck to the 40k galaxy or if they're universal in nature.  I would imagine that they can only manifest if the conditions in an area are met.  Like if there were no fighting in the 40k Galaxy, there would be fuel for the fire when summoning a Blood Thirster.



They only exist through the Warp in a singular galaxy, until otherwise shown anad proven, they are only galactic level beings.



> Maybe.  Ship destruction has occured from crashing into unknown objects though, and Warpstorms are pretty darn dangerous both within and without.  There's a good chance merely being close to one would drive everyone on board a ship mad.



Which happens almost never unless you try to be something like in the Smugglar profession and hap hazardly trying to micro-jump through Hyperspace through something like the Maw.



> I've read conflicting stories.



So then it isn't substaniated in fluff without contradictions. Therefore that brings a bring problem for you.



> You keep ignoring everything I've said.  Are you not aware that because the Warp is Hell, that's why Warpstorms occur?  If you want to get rid of Warpstorms, you have to calm down the Warp.



Which maybe so but this isn't Pre-Horus Heresy Imperium of Man's time and era, this is post-Horus Heresy, in the 41st century.

And the Warp is anything but calm and tamed to them. Not that this matters as Hyperdrive equipped starships and warships that travel through Hyperspace will not be interacting with the Warp because they are traveling in a pre-existing and completely different reality and dimension.





> You're refusing to understand what I'm saying.



No, I'm not listening because your wrong. Your claiming the Warp will affect Hyperspace, even though the Warp doesn't exist in the Star Wars universe and Hyperspace travel works in a different dimension.

Its like saying the Netherworld of the Force is equivalent to the mortal realm of the ninjas of Naruto for the living.



> Temporal Manipulation is not unknown, but it's a highly ranked skill.  I imagine it's much easier to do it while in the Warp, but since the Warp is the Warp, it's too dangerous and difficult unless under ideal conditions.



Not mentioned in the Space Wolves series, not mentioned in the Soul Drinkers series, not mentioned in the Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts series, or many others for that matter.

And its only actively happened as a plot device akin to some technological power up the Voyager crew uncovered or found or used in each of their plot arcs in that series.

By your logic, the Sun Crusher existed and was known to the higher ups in the Galactic Empire's heirarchy, therefore I can claim that they can just use it and produce it to such a degree with their technological resources and prowress to curbstomp in the entire IoM navy and military forces.



> Which is why it's important to define the nature of the Immaterium in the terms of debate.  On one hand, you've got a calm version that the IoM can use freely without worry.  On the other, you've got Hell bubbling up at random throughout the universe.



This is current WH40K for the IoM: Examples being...No God-Emperor of Man is fightning for them, all the Primarchs on their side are incapicated, missing or dead, they aren't secular or logical for that much as well and the Warp is not their allow or tamed.

And aside from that, nothing has ever been established on how the Tyranids roved throughout the universe until those Hive Fleets started hitting the Milky Way Galaxy for the Imperium of Man.

And since several sources in the canon from the novels (fluff) are severely contradictory, your going to have a rough time qualifying this.


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## Wesley (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> Only collectively. You take out the lead warrior or psyker, they become confused and even Blanks barely register to the normal warrior or Genestealer.



There are more Nid Psykers than there were Eldar at the height of their power.



> First direct proof is required for this before we go any further.



It's the Hivemind.  It's their analogue to a Chaos God, Gork and Mork, Khaine, etc.  They're intimiately tied to the Immaterium.



> They only exist through the Warp in a singular galaxy, until otherwise shown anad proven, they are only galactic level beings.



I don't really think it matters anyway since they're not involved in the conflict.  Besides that the Tyranids are all the proof that's needed for the Immaterium existing outside the Milky Way.  That and the Old Ones who came from outside.



> So then it isn't substaniated in fluff without contradictions. Therefore that brings a bring problem for you.



Ha.  As if Star Wars exists without contradictions.  Stackpole anyone?



> Which maybe so but this isn't Pre-Horus Heresy Imperium of Man's time and era, this is post-Horus Heresy, in the 41st century.



What's your point?



> And the Warp is anything but calm and tamed to them. Not that this matters as Hyperdrive equipped starships and warships that travel through Hyperspace will not be interacting with the Warp because they are traveling in a pre-existing and completely different reality and dimension.



Hyperspace Travel is undefined in how it works exactly.  Regardless it's effected by mass-shadows and gravity distortions, which is what a Warpstorm generates among the usual pain and suffering.



> No, I'm not listening because your wrong. Your claiming the Warp will affect Hyperspace, even though the Warp doesn't exist in the Star Wars universe and Hyperspace travel works in a different dimension.
> 
> Its like saying the Netherworld of the Force is equivalent to the mortal realm of the ninjas of Naruto for the living.



Warpstorms exist within realspace.  Duh.



> Not mentioned in the Space Wolves series, not mentioned in the Soul Drinkers series, not mentioned in the Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts series, or many others for that matter.



It's a fact that the Immaterium effects Temporal if only from the way Warp Traveling works.  Otherwise, any novel that personally features the Emperor may have Temporal manipulation.  Anyway, my point still stands, if the Immaterium can deliever a fleet ahead of time, it can be made to do so with th e proper ability.



> And its only actively happened as a plot device akin to some technological power up the Voyager crew uncovered or found or used in each of their plot arcs in that series.



So what?  It's still an indication of the nature and utility of the Warp.



> By your logic, the Sun Crusher existed and was known to the higher ups in the Galactic Empire's heirarchy, therefore I can claim that they can just use it and produce it to such a degree with their technological resources and prowress to curbstomp in the entire IoM navy and military forces.



Like I care.  The Sun Crusher is vastly overrated.  I wish Star Wars fanbois would figure that out.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 21, 2008)

Wesley said:


> Interdictors imply otherwise.  I've even read where a large asteriod was used to drag a Resort Liner of Star Destroyer proportions out of Hyperspace.



Interdictors create large gravity wells that force a ship out of hyperspace - AFAIK warp storms don't have massive gravitational affects associated with the normally.


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## Estrecca (Nov 21, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Interdictors create large gravity wells that force a ship out of hyperspace - AFAIK warp storms don't have massive gravitational affects associated with the normally.



They are still regions where "normal" space and the Warp are mixed and Daemons can create star clusters for shit and giggles. Using the theory that sustains that "hyperspace" is actually normal space seen from a tachyonic perspective... Well. Going through a region where Chaos can show up inside your ship if you aren't packing the adequate defenses is never healthy, even if you go through real fast.


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## Fang (Nov 21, 2008)

None of those regions exist in the SW galaxy, so how does this matter. And hyperspace is completely seperate from the warp in any case.


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## Estrecca (Nov 21, 2008)

TWF said:


> None of those regions exist in the SW galaxy, so how does this matter. And hyperspace is completely seperate from the warp in any case.



As I have made abundantly clear before, the Imperium doesn't have the ability to project any meaningful level of military power beyond its own galaxy and that means that the Galactic Empire enjoys uncontested strategical advantages.

The rest of my involvement in this debate has been about how challenging this kind of conflict would be for the Galactic Empire (answer: a massive challenge, regardless of the outcome) and the existence of Warp intrusions in realspace in IoM territory is one of the phenomenons that the GE would have to deal with. 

Also, as per ICS hyperspace is not a different dimension, but tachyons moving through realspace. Warpstorms can mess stuff in realspace, meaning that ships in hyper-transit are not perfectly safe. If somebody is stupid enough to navigate through the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom, daemons will almost certainly show up and have a jolly good time.


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## Fang (Nov 21, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> The rest of my involvement in this debate has been about how challenging this kind of conflict would be for the Galactic Empire (answer: a massive challenge, regardless of the outcome) and the existence of Warp intrusions in realspace in IoM territory is one of the phenomenons that the GE would have to deal with.



Which is no where near all prevailing as you seem to think or claim. Much less if the Warp had any notable foothold in any major systems of the IoM, they would've overun them by now.



> Also, as per ICS hyperspace is not a different dimension, but tachyons moving through realspace. Warpstorms can mess stuff in realspace, meaning that ships in hyper-transit are not perfectly safe. If somebody is stupid enough to navigate through the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom, daemons will almost certainly show up and have a jolly good time.



The novel never debunked anything about Hyperspace being seperate from the rest of the universe's dimensions, it just said tachyons from hyperspace were used in the Death Star's power source.


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## Wesley (Nov 21, 2008)

Endless Mike said:


> Interdictors create large gravity wells that force a ship out of hyperspace - AFAIK warp storms don't have massive gravitational affects associated with the normally.



Warpstorms do create gravity distortions.  It's all part of the whole rip in space/time hell boiling worth thingy.


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## Endless Mike (Nov 21, 2008)

I'm talking about a persistent gravity field, like one formed by a planet.

Not some random gravity disturbances.


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