# Luffy vs. Vergo



## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

I'm bothering to make this thread because of the posts in Burgess vs. Vergo where Luffy vs. Vergo was brought up and people insinuated that Vergo would be a high diff fight for him.

I don't really care about Vergo's feats. We have a thousand more feats from Luffy. We know Luffy is close to Law in terms of strength, probably even stronger. Law took out Vergo in a single shot once he got his heart back and there's no hint that this was even his strongest attack either. 

How the hell do we go from Law one-shotting Vergo to Luffy high-diffing Vergo?

50 meters, PH lab, bloodlusted, etc.


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## RF (Feb 10, 2014)

Vergo confidently rushed towards Law with the idea in mind that his haki would be able to nullify his DF-powers as Doflamingo suggested, thus leaving himself completely open and vulnerable which spells doom against that type of opponent. Reading comprehension 101. 

 Vergo managed to crack Sanji's leg in a couple of exchanges and (ambigiously) defeated Smoker. Luffy beating him with anything short of high-diff is dumb.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

^ RG solos. Also OP you're forgetting the part where Law if given the chance would one shot Luffy too right. His ability is to defeat anyone who he gets a clean shot on who has lower haki than him to one shot. On that note Luffy wins high to extreme diff.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 10, 2014)

_Luffy does not have the Law Hax to just bypass Vergo's durability. And Vergo is damn durable, enough for Smoker or Sanji not to be much of a challenge in that regard. I expect Luffy to win but it would take a lot more than "one shot", Vergo would tank and land attacks on him probably to a greater extent than old Chinjao did._


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## Goomoonryong (Feb 10, 2014)

Vergo got one shotted by Law because Law is incredibly hax and His own arrogance, it would have been a much tougher fight for law if Vergo was cautious. That being said Vergo has shown some of the best CoA since the timeskip and was effortlessly tanking hits from Sanji and Smoker.  Unless he just stands still and let's Luffy wail on him with G3 attacks Luffys not beating him without high diff.


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## Bitty (Feb 10, 2014)

because Luffy doesn't have an almighty hax cutting ability that can bypass conventional durability & slice a mountain range in half with 1-swing.

He's a physical brawler, just like Vergo. Yes, he maybe on Law's actual level & overall superior than Vergo, but he's not the type of fighter Law is. His matches are not going to straight forward as Law's, who's abilities revolve around 1-shotting an opponent & finishing them quickly, most likely because of the effect his abilities have on his stamina. Compared to Luffy, who's a physical beast & fights in combos....wearing his opponents down.

He's going to have to wear down a guy who can tank two direct DJz to face & shrugg them off as if they were mediocre attacks, a counter shock, blows from Smoker, & had to be taken out by an attack that sliced a mountain in half.

Until Luffy grows stronger from his clash with Dofla, he's not mid-diffing the guy who cracked Sanji's leg.


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## Quuon (Feb 10, 2014)

For reasons stated above Luffy clearly wins with High Difficulty.

That just might  change after this Arc is done though.


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## Orca (Feb 10, 2014)

Vergo wanted to break Law's will by showing him that his Haki was too strong for Law to bypass. Hence he put everything on stake by Challenging law to that final strike.  If vergo had knowledge, he wouldn't simply be oneshotted.

Plus Luffy can't oneshot people anyway the way law can.


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## Slenderman (Feb 10, 2014)

I am a Luffy guy all the way but this


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## November (Feb 10, 2014)

High diff at least for Luffy


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Feb 10, 2014)

Luffy tries to hit Vergo with a Thor Elephant gun.

Vergo: Meh. I can tank this.

Vergo dies.


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## Dellinger (Feb 10, 2014)

Luffy high difficulty.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 10, 2014)

IijiNijiSanji said:


> Luffy tries to hit Vergo with a Thor Elephant gun.
> 
> Vergo: Meh. I can tank this.
> 
> Vergo dies.


_
It would not even be impossible for Vergo to get up after that. We really did not get to see what his upper limit in terms of tanking a blunt attack like this one would be.
_


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 10, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Vergo confidently rushed towards Law with the idea in mind that his haki would be able to nullify his DF-powers as Doflamingo suggested, thus leaving himself completely open and vulnerable which spells doom against that type of opponent. Reading comprehension 101.
> 
> Vergo managed to crack Sanji's leg in a couple of exchanges and (ambigiously) defeated Smoker. Luffy beating him with anything short of high-diff is dumb.



Sakazuki Solos. 

Luffy wins High diff.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

Luffy high diff.

I don't expect anyone to say mid or extreme.


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## Rob (Feb 10, 2014)

I still don't fully understand the deal with Law... 

How?... 

Law's CoA clearly wasn't superior... wait... It was?


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> I still don't fully understand the deal with Law...
> 
> How?...
> 
> Law's CoA clearly wasn't superior... wait... It was?





Eh, I hold the probably extremely unpopular belief that certain DF's [including Law's] bypass conventional durability, _and_ haki.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 10, 2014)

^Durability Sure.

But if it did the same for Haki then Smoker would of lost the fight a lot sooner, and of course Smoker and DD would not of said strong enough haki can negate laws ability.

Some people need to remember that Haki is not a god shield it goes from fodder Amazon lily levels to fucking SHanks level in power. Vergo could not block Laws attack with Haki cause it was not strong enough, Just like Vergo would not be able to block a Elephant Thor from Luffy with Haki.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Feb 10, 2014)

_It's also possible for a distinction to be made later on when looking at CoA haki, between the usefulness of the "invisible armor", the barriers ( like the ones used by the Admirals to block WB's Quake ), and the hardening when compared to each other without having a simple linear scaling of A > B > C.  Vergo might specialize in hardening, and hardening might not be as great of an answer to "special powers" like Law's as the invisible CoA or the barriers, while it could be a much better answer when dealing with physical attacks._


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## Shanks (Feb 10, 2014)

Vergo vs. Luffy would be exactly the same as Chinjao vs. Luffy. Vergo tanking shits from Luffy and vise versa initially. Based Luffy and Gear second wouldn't do much to Vergo, which will cause Vergo's ego to sky rocket even more than his battle with Law.

Once Luffy is serious, he'll pull out a "Thor Elephant Gun", which Vergo will undoubtedly decide to tank with full body haki instead of dodge, which will result in the same fate at Chinjao.

Once again, intellect does play a large part in a fight and Vergo lacks this.

Edit: if anyone is wondering, Zoro vs. Vergo or Sanji vs. Vergo to the very end will end with the same fate.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

The only thing that makes me think otherwise was Law's confidence in being able to cut Vergo, especially since Vergo is known for his haki proficiency.

I mean, you can't "sense" how strong someone's haki is, can you?



Then again it could be chalked up to overconfidence.

Still... 

Nowadays it seems it all boils down to who has the better haki, which I dislike.


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## Shanks (Feb 10, 2014)

Maybe Law is just that beastly and his fight with DD is PIS? He did effortlessly cut seastones, yet a top tier swordsmen like Window's Vista can't.


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## tanman (Feb 10, 2014)

Some real underestimation of Law's ability here.
Just because Law and Luffy are implied to be on the same level sure as fuck doesn't mean that they would have even have close to the same difficulties against their opponents. And it's borderline extreme difficulty.


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Vergo confidently rushed towards Law with the idea in mind that his haki would be able to nullify his DF-powers as Doflamingo suggested, thus leaving himself completely open and vulnerable which spells doom against that type of opponent. Reading comprehension 101.
> 
> Vergo managed to crack Sanji's leg in a couple of exchanges and (ambigiously) defeated Smoker. Luffy beating him with anything short of high-diff is dumb.





Slenderman said:


> ^ RG solos. Also OP you're forgetting the part where Law if given the chance would one shot Luffy too right. His ability is to defeat anyone who he gets a clean shot on who has lower haki than him to one shot. On that note Luffy wins high to extreme diff.





Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Luffy does not have the Law Hax to just bypass Vergo's durability. And Vergo is damn durable, enough for Smoker or Sanji not to be much of a challenge in that regard. I expect Luffy to win but it would take a lot more than "one shot", Vergo would tank and land attacks on him probably to a greater extent than old Chinjao did._





Goomoonryong said:


> Vergo got one shotted by Law because Law is incredibly hax and His own arrogance, it would have been a much tougher fight for law if Vergo was cautious. That being said Vergo has shown some of the best CoA since the timeskip and was effortlessly tanking hits from Sanji and Smoker.  Unless he just stands still and let's Luffy wail on him with G3 attacks Luffys not beating him without high diff.





Bitty said:


> because Luffy doesn't have an almighty hax cutting ability that can bypass conventional durability & slice a mountain range in half with 1-swing.
> 
> He's a physical brawler, just like Vergo. Yes, he maybe on Law's actual level & overall superior than Vergo, but he's not the type of fighter Law is. His matches are not going to straight forward as Law's, who's abilities revolve around 1-shotting an opponent & finishing them quickly, most likely because of the effect his abilities have on his stamina. Compared to Luffy, who's a physical beast & fights in combos....wearing his opponents down.
> 
> ...





Quuon said:


> For reasons stated above Luffy clearly wins with High Difficulty.
> 
> That just might  change after this Arc is done though.





Luffee said:


> Vergo wanted to break Law's will by showing him that his Haki was too strong for Law to bypass. Hence he put everything on stake by Challenging law to that final strike.  If vergo had knowledge, he wouldn't simply be oneshotted.
> 
> Plus Luffy can't oneshot people anyway the way law can.


Good job. You guys just proved you don't read the manga. All of you. Yes, all of you, because you clearly didn't read this part.




I have no idea where you got this silly idea that Law's DF allows you to bypass haki. Spend less time on OL and more time reading.

Doflamingo says "your cutting ability is completely useless against his haki" which infers that Law's haki (present or not in a previous encounter where it failed) is weaker than Vergo's haki, which then insinuates that because Law's cut actually went through Vergo, Law's haki is superior.

Next time, take your own prescription.

Luffy low diffs. Both Law and Luffy are on a completely different level in an era where VAs are getting destroyed left and right.

*edit*: I'm gonna bookmark this post because of how hilarious this is.


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## Louis-954 (Feb 10, 2014)

> Luffy low diffs.


A>B>C logic doesn't apply in One Piece. Just because Law one shot Vergo does not mean that Luffy would have it just as easy.  This is Doflamingo's right hand man we're talking about here. If A>B>C logic were applicable then Law wouldn't have struggled harder against Smoker who Vergo trounced for a good 15 minutes.


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

Louis-954 said:


> A>B>C logic doesn't apply in One Piece. Just because Law one shot Vergo does not mean that Luffy would have it just as easy.  This is Doflamingo's right hand man we're talking about here. If A>B>C logic were applicable then *Law wouldn't have struggled harder *against Smoker who Vergo trounced for a good 15 minutes.



He didn't struggle at all. Law embarrassed Smoker. In the Vergo encounter, Law got his heart back and immediately entered a "nothing to lose" mindset. Since he was in a hurry, he took out Vergo in one shot. There's NO indication that this was Law's strongest shot and NO indication that his DF ability bypassed haki. If the former was true, then Law wouldn't be in Doflamingo's possession at the moment.

Here's a homework assignment: Law defeated Vergo because of haki. VAs are getting destroyed left and right which poses a common denominator regarding VA strength. Luffy hasn't gone 100% yet, at all. We've seen Vergo at 100%. There's very little to deduce. What difficulty does Luffy defeat Vergo at?

The majority of OL is swimming in confirmation bias with Vergo because when he was introduced they thought he was a beast and now they're not owning up to his real strength, which is the one-shot mess Law put him in.


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## Soca (Feb 10, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Vergo confidently rushed towards Law with the idea in mind that his haki would be able to nullify his DF-powers as Doflamingo suggested, thus leaving himself completely open and vulnerable which spells doom against that type of opponent. Reading comprehension 101.
> 
> Vergo managed to crack Sanji's leg in a couple of exchanges and (ambigiously) defeated Smoker. Luffy beating him with anything short of high-diff is dumb.



Indeed

can't get more in depth than this tbh


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## X18999 (Feb 10, 2014)

Honestly I don't see Vergo doing well against the punch Luffy used against Chinjoa

No the E.T. but the initial class which was pretty epic.


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

Marcelle.B said:


> can't get more in depth than this tbh



Yes, you can. By reading my post (that has manga evidence) and understanding what actually happened during the one-shot encounter.



jayjay32 said:


> Good job. You guys just proved you don't read the manga. All of you. Yes, all of you, because you clearly didn't read this part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Doflamingo says "your cutting ability is completely useless against his haki" which infers that Law's haki (present or not in a previous encounter where it failed) is weaker than Vergo's haki, which then insinuates that because Law's cut actually went through Vergo, Law's haki is superior.



That's all based on how one interprets it. It can be taken several different ways.

However the most likely, based on rationale and logic; is that Doflamingo simply underestimated his ex crew member. 

He clearly had no idea how much Law had grown since their last encounter, for which we have no idea how long it has been.

Oh yeah and dude please stop stating your opinion as though it is fact, as though you're Oda himself. You do it all the time.

You may be 100% certain that your opinion is right, but that doesn't mean it is. At least recognise you're capable of being incorrect.


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## Soca (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Yes, you can. By reading my post (that has manga evidence) and understanding what actually happened during the one-shot encounter.



Louis already debunked that so I'm gonna ignore it.


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

X18999 said:


> Honestly I don't see Vergo doing well against the punch Luffy used against Chinjoa
> 
> No the E.T. but the initial class which was pretty epic.



TEG looks like a powerful move but I don't see Vergo surviving an Elephant Gatling either.


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

Marcelle.B said:


> Louis already debunked that so I'm gonna ignore it.



So, you didn't read my post but then go on to say it was debunked which you can only confirm if you understand what the post is about - but you don't because you didn't read it. This is blatant trolling. Reported.


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## Soca (Feb 10, 2014)

Louis already debunked your post jayjay what's the point in me repeating the same thing he did hmm?


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

What said:


> That's all based on how one interprets it. It can be taken several different ways.
> 
> However the most likely, based on rationale and logic; is that Doflamingo simply underestimated his ex crew member.
> 
> ...


That's wrong again. You can't misinterpret that. I just called out these guys on what is fact. Louis read it, didn't disagree with my interpretation of the encounter, but pulled the ABC logic card which is actually ridiculous when ABC logic is shamelessly worshiped in top tier fights. I've seen Louis use it too.

I'm playing by the rules so don't call me out like I'm wrong and give me double standards. It looks desperate when you guys do it.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

General consensuses also mean nothing. This manga is produced by one person. This false consensus effect that happens often here is merely a cognitive bias. It leads to the perception that it can effectively be contrasted with pluralistic ignorance. Many factors come into this hivemind but it boils down to selective exposure (something you do often, jayjay), heuristic cognitive ability, and simple salience.

 It is literally, not figuratively, in the realm of possibility that both Akainu and Blackbeard are not the FVs.


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

What said:


> General consensuses also mean nothing. This manga is produced by one person. This false consensus effect that happens often here is merely a cognitive bias. It leads to the perception that it can effectively be contrasted with pluralistic ignorance. Many factors come into this hivemind but it boils down to selective exposure (something you do often, jayjay), heuristic cognitive ability, and simple salience.
> 
> It is literally, not figuratively, in the realm of possibility that both Akainu and Blackbeard are not the FVs.



Why are you giving me a lesson on general consensus? I'm clearly in the minority but just because you're in the majority, does not mean you're right. Ironically, this is a good time to give a shout out to your post.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> That's wrong again. You can't misinterpret that. I just called out these guys on what is fact. Louis read it, didn't disagree with my interpretation of the encounter, but pulled the ABC logic card which is actually ridiculous when ABC logic is shamelessly worshiped in top tier fights. I've seen Louis use it too.



What exactly causes you to be so close minded and stubborn, can you at least see my point of view?

I see yours. I didn't say you were wrong, I simply said it can be interpreted differently. 

That _is_ a fact. All pieces of fiction and their interpretations are dictated by the subjective viewpoint of the person reading them.

Why must you instantly dismiss another's opinion if it is not in agreement with yours?


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## NO (Feb 10, 2014)

What said:


> What exactly causes you to be so close minded and stubborn, can you at least see my point of view?
> 
> I see yours. I didn't say you were wrong, I simply said it can be interpreted differently.
> 
> ...



Because it *CAN'T* be interpreted in the way it was. That is a fact. Everyone is saying that Law's DF allowed him to bypass haki. This is wrong. On multiple fronts. That opinion is created by misinformation to support a previously debunked idea (that Vergo is incredibly strong). People are living in the past when they say Vergo will give Luffy a high-diff fight. People are completely incorrect when they say Law can bypass haki with his DF.

The truth of the matter is in the manga page. Doflamingo said Law was beat up by Vergo previously. Doflamingo said there's no way his ability will go through Vergo's haki. And Law murdered him in one shot, taking out a laboratory and a few mountains out as well. There's two ways to interpret this. Law's sheer strength is superior to Vergo's haki or Law's haki is superior to Vergo's haki. And that's all you can do with that simple encounter.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Why are you giving me a lesson on general consensus? I'm clearly in the minority but just because you're in the majority, does not mean you're right. Ironically, this is a good time to give a shout out to your post.



That's my point exactly. I'm expressing my discontent when it comes to the belief that if your opinion is of the majority, then you must be right.

What I meant by my previous post was this - I don't give a shit about majority and minority opinion. 

It should not influence you at all. Don't let your convictions be shaken just because it isn't the generally accepted perspective.

You believe something to be right, then go for it. Fight for it.

Change is hard, apathy is easy.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Because it *CAN'T* be interpreted in the way it was.



Why not? You need to explain more.



> That is a fact.



How?



> Everyone is saying that Law's DF allowed him to bypass haki. This is wrong. On multiple fronts.



First of all, I don't think everyone is saying that. Iirc it was only myself who specifically expressed that he may be able to. But how is it wrong? 

It seems all your "evidence" is based on a single statement by Doflamingo, who has clearly outdated knowledge of Law.



> Doflamingo said Law was beat up by Vergo previously.



Huh? What does that mean? People grow. They get stronger. Doflamingo hadn't seen Law in a while.

The SH's were having immense trouble dealing with a pacifista. 

2 years later Luffy one hits one.

But from a perspective of someone who witnessed the first event only, they would scoff at Luffy and say "there is no way you can beat that pacifista, do you remember what happened last time?"

Do you see the connection and the irrationality of your argument?



> Doflamingo said there's no way his ability will go through Vergo's haki.



Again, this is all based on Doflamingo's outdated knowledge of Law. 



> Law's haki is superior to Vergo's hak



 You said that was the minority opinion, however I thought most people believe that.


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## Soca (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Because it *CAN'T* be interpreted in the way it was. That is a fact. Everyone is saying that Law's DF allowed him to bypass haki. This is wrong. On multiple fronts. That opinion is created by misinformation to support a previously debunked idea (that Vergo is incredibly strong). People are living in the past when they say Vergo will give Luffy a high-diff fight. People are completely incorrect when they say Law can bypass haki with his DF.
> 
> The truth of the matter is in the manga page. Doflamingo said Law was beat up by Vergo previously. Doflamingo said there's no way his ability will go through Vergo's haki. And Law murdered him in one shot, taking out a laboratory and a few mountains out as well. There's two ways to interpret this. Law's sheer strength is superior to Vergo's haki or Law's haki is superior to Vergo's haki. And that's all you can do with that simple encounter.



Most of your arguments seem to ride on DD's outdated knowledge, you need something else to bring to the table.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 10, 2014)

Luffy high diff.


What said:


> Eh, I hold the probably extremely unpopular belief that certain DF's [including Law's] bypass conventional durability, _and_ haki.


If I may ask, why? Just curious. Personally, I lean towards Law having better Haki, but your theory could very well turn out to be right.


What said:


> The only thing that makes me think otherwise was Law's confidence in being able to cut Vergo, especially since Vergo is known for his haki proficiency.
> 
> I mean, you can't "sense" how strong someone's haki is, can you?



Blackbeard said that Luffy's Haki had improved since he had last seen him. But I'm not sure if he had a specific idea or a rough estimate of how strong Luffy's Haki was.


What said:


> Then again it could be chalked up to overconfidence.
> 
> Still...
> 
> Nowadays it seems it all boils down to who has the better haki, which I dislike.


Yeah, Oda really needs to clear up the specifics on how his Haki system works.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Good job. You guys just proved you don't read the manga. All of you. Yes, all of you, because you clearly didn't read this part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





1. Only one dude claimed Laws ability can bypass haki. 

2.. Law does not have better Haki then Vergo.

3. When was the last time DD saw Law go all out? How does he know the limits of Laws ability? Thats right he does not, but he does know that Vergo is one of his strongest and most trusted subordinate who focuses on COA Haki. So it stands to reason Doflamingo would think Vergo could tank Laws attacks and defeat him just like he did in the past. 

4. Conclusion. Law"s devil fruit power was to powerful for Vergo to block. Just like Laws devil fruit power would be to powerful for Zoro to block, or Luffy ect ect. Luffy does not have a Hax devil fruit ability so he can't lol chop Vergo in half. Believe it or not this is not DBZ. Luffy can not do everything Law can do even if he is stronger. You also have to keep in mind how fights play out. If Luffy fights Sanji and right off the bat whips out Gear Stacking and spamming Red hawks the fight is not going to last very long. Does not mean Sanji is weak sauce compared to Luffy. Fights progressively go up if Vergo showed up to fight Law again the fight is not going to end in 10 seconds its going to drag out, cause Law is not going to start the fight off swinging around giant ass rooms that can cut mountains. 

5. You got mental problems if you think Luffy can low diff Vergo.


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## Freechoice (Feb 10, 2014)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Luffy high diff.
> 
> If I may ask, why? Just curious. Personally, I lean towards Law having better Haki, but your theory could very well turn out to be right.



Well, if I am being honest, it's just a gut feeling. 

If Law can cut seastone; which negates DF's, why couldn't he "cut" haki?

Can he cut seawater? It's all just a little confusing to me.

I view CoA as just a magical armour of sorts that enhances both defence and offence. Iirc CoA haki has been stating to be able to touch the "substantial body" underneath one's paramecia or logia body, but it doesn't negate it. 

More information is needed on how it affects defence against DF attacks i.e. Law's slash, but yeah no real foundation for my belief.

I have a terrible memory when it comes to the finer details of One Piece so there may have been a time where it said that haki lessens the effects of DF's on ones body any further than regular armour protects against a regular punch.

Fuck I'm getting a little mumbo-jumbo at the moment. I can think clearly sometimes whereas other times there are so many thoughts racing through my head it's hard for my fingers to keep track.

Apologies if none of that makes sense. 



> Blackbeard said that Luffy's Haki had improved since he had last seen him. But I'm not sure if he had a specific idea or a rough estimate of how strong Luffy's Haki was.



Interesting. Thanks man, I didn't remember that at all. I hope it's explained how they can do that.


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## Louis-954 (Feb 10, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> He didn't struggle at all. Law embarrassed Smoker. In the Vergo encounter, Law got his heart back and immediately entered a "nothing to lose" mindset. Since he was in a hurry, he took out Vergo in one shot. There's NO indication that this was Law's strongest shot and NO indication that his DF ability bypassed haki. If the former was true, then Law wouldn't be in Doflamingo's possession at the moment.
> 
> Here's a homework assignment: Law defeated Vergo because of haki. VAs are getting destroyed left and right which poses a common denominator regarding VA strength. Luffy hasn't gone 100% yet, at all. We've seen Vergo at 100%. There's very little to deduce. What difficulty does Luffy defeat Vergo at?


This isn't what I'm saying at all. I agree that Law likely infused his DF cut with Haki in order to bypass Vergo's own. 

What I'm trying to convey to you is that Luffy is like night to Law's day; he's a brawler, if he fought Vergo, it'd be a brawl. If Luffy couldn't one shot Hody or Caesar, then he's not going to one shot Vergo either who is exponentially tougher either. Law had an easier time with Vergo than most other people on his general level (Luffy/Sanji/Smoker) *because of the nature of his Devil Fruit ability, not because he's several tiers above them in every category. 
*


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 10, 2014)

What said:


> Well, if I am being honest, it's just a gut feeling.


Which is perfectly reasonable. We all make theories based on gut feeling.


What said:


> If Law can cut seastone; which negates DF's, why couldn't he "cut" haki?


Once upon a time, that does not appear to have been the case, as Law's power couldn't work on Vergo's Haki. During their final fight though, once Law got his heart back, sliced clean through Vergo (though it would have been a harder fight if Vergo didn't charge into it like a moron). Whether this was due to the fact Law increased his skill with Haki or his DF, we don't know.


What said:


> Can he cut seawater? It's all just a little confusing to me.



*Spoiler*: __ 








I can't say for sure, the artwork makes it difficult to tell, but the first page shows that he *might* have cut sea water. In the second and third page, unless I'm mistaken, it seems that Law can manipulate seawater.


What said:


> I view CoA as just a magical armour of sorts that enhances both defence and offence. Iirc CoA haki has been stating to be able to *touch the substantial body" underneath one's paramecia or logia body, but it doesn't negate it.*


That's 100% correct.


What said:


> More information is needed on how it affects defence against DF attacks i.e. Law's slash, but yeah no real foundation for my belief.


Which is a-ok.


What said:


> Apologies if none of that makes sense.


I got the jiff of it.


What said:


> Interesting. Thanks man, I didn't remember that at all. I hope it's explained how they can do that.


You're welcome. It's also unclear if you have to have Haki to tell if someone has Haki. I don't think Blackbeard has or will ever awaken Haki, at least not BH or HH, so if you do need KH to sense Haki, Blackbeard's skill at KH is minimal as he keeps getting caught offguard (though that's often CIS).


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## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Doflamingo says "your cutting ability is completely useless against his haki" which infers that Law's haki (present or not in a previous encounter where it failed) is weaker than Vergo's haki, which then insinuates that because Law's cut actually went through Vergo, Law's haki is superior.






RobLucciRapes said:


> I still don't fully understand the deal with Law...
> How?...
> Law's CoA clearly wasn't superior... wait... It was?




Law's CoA is obviously inferior to Vergo's, just not so far inferior that Law can't cut Vergo. It's not as if having slightly better CoA than your opponent makes you immune to all of their attacks.


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## RF (Feb 11, 2014)

So in your books jayjay, Luffy can beat Sanji with low difficulty? Or even stomp him, because he's probably weaker than Vergo?


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 11, 2014)

Keep it civil people. Baiting each other will not be tolerated.


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## TasteTheDifference (Feb 11, 2014)

Shielding himself with CoA is Vergo's forte, it's not an ancillary ability of his, it's how he wins fights.  If it fails against a given opponent, then he's just plain inferior to them.  You can't just decide that Vergo would've used some kind of hitherto unrevealed blazing speed and COO to avoid that technique


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## J★J♥ (Feb 11, 2014)

I still think that Vergo was strongest on that island.


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## tanman (Feb 11, 2014)

We'll probably know for sure how strong Vergo is the next time he appears.
Let's be patient.


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## Slenderman (Feb 11, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> Good job. *You guys just proved you don't read the manga*. All of you. Yes, all of you, because you clearly didn't read this part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please tell me which ass you pulled this out of? I already know that. Law's haki is better than Vergo's hence he cut him. How does Luffy low diff? Does he cut Vergo with his haxx devil fruit? Your condescension is horrible. You state everything like you're Oda which you're not. Luffy clearly couldn't one shot DCJ, or Hody or CC. DCJ actually tanked hawk rifle.


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## Sayonara (Feb 11, 2014)

Luffys was always going to have harder time with Vergo than Law regardless of how close Luffy maybe to Law. 

Jayjay you need to understand these aren't dbz power levels , in one piece fighting style(DFs, crazy abilities) can make all the difference.


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## Captain Altintop (Feb 11, 2014)

Could go either way imo, Leaning towards Luffy extreme diff because of PIS .


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## Slenderman (Feb 11, 2014)

And jayjay is saying I don't read the manga


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## Lmao (Feb 12, 2014)

What are you guys even arguing? There's no such thing as "Law's hax cuts trough haki", the moment Doflamingo mentioned Vergo's haki will render Law's ability useless, Oda was pretty much insinuating superior haki can shield you. Law cut full body haki Vergo and therefore his haki was better or it temporarily exceeded Vergo's, deal with it.

Or would anyone rather believe Law's hax cuts through haki regardless if the haki user is Vergo or Whitebeard level? Come on now.


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## Halcyon (Feb 12, 2014)

lol Law hax isn't that hax.

Everyone in the series would be fucked and Law would be automatic PK


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## BlueDemon (Feb 12, 2014)

I'm still of the opinion that Law's slash was a high-end move and that he didn't "low diff" (or whatever) Vergo.

This has been discussed before, but Law's DF powers probably work together with his Haki.

So, Vergo's Haki would be --------​
       Law's                      -----​
And Law's DF:                       ----​
...would have been powerful enough to overcome Vergo. I think that's the most probable explanation.


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## Etherborn (Feb 12, 2014)

BlueDemon said:


> I'm still of the opinion that Law's slash was a high-end move and that he didn't "low diff" (or whatever) Vergo.
> 
> This has been discussed before, but Law's DF powers probably work together with his Haki.
> 
> ...



I agree. I think Vergo's haki was stronger, but Law's devil fruit alone can cut through haki defenses depending on how well he's mastered it and how strong the defender's haki is. It was both Law's devil fruit mastery and haki that allowed him to cut through Vergo.


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## Beast (Feb 12, 2014)

I wonder about peoples though process. 

Was Vergo's hype really that bad? 

Mid- high diff for Luffy.


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## Lord Melkor (Feb 12, 2014)

I agree with the above, as I do not see Law having better COA Haki than Vergo. Vergo's COA was his speciality.

Anyway, high difficulty victory for Luffy should be the answer here. Luffy could overpower Vergo's defense with this strongest move like Law did, but the fight would be longer and more brutal.


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## tupadre97 (Feb 12, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> I'm bothering to make this thread because of the posts in Burgess vs. Vergo where Luffy vs. Vergo was brought up and people insinuated that Vergo would be a high diff fight for him.
> 
> I don't really care about Vergo's feats. We have a thousand more feats from Luffy. We know Luffy is close to Law in terms of strength, probably even stronger. Law took out Vergo in a single shot once he got his heart back and there's no hint that this was even his strongest attack either.
> 
> ...



Law can one shot Luffy so this isn't really a fair comparison as he is stronger than both of them. Anyway we've seen enough from Vergo to conclude that he is too strong and too durable for Luffy to defeat without him using his strongest attacks immediately. If he doesn't and is hit just a few times from vergo its all over.


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## Doma (Feb 12, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> I still don't fully understand the deal with Law...
> 
> How?...
> 
> Law's CoA clearly wasn't superior... wait... It was?



So here's how it all works out. Law likely didn't have better haki than Vergo seeing as Vergo's specialty was tanking with CoA. But the reason Law still cut through him is because his attack(Haki+DF+whatever power he put into that sword swing) was greater than the defense Vergo's haki provided. This is why Law's mountain slasher broke Vergo's haki but that generic slash aimed at cut up Tashigi bounced off of Smoker's jutte. Otherwise anyone with even slightly better haki than Luffy would be completely invulnerable to his attacks which is obviously just stupid.

And just some speculation here, but I would bet that even with greater haki you don't always break through the other guy's defense. Haki is an armor first, it makes sense it provides a much greater defense than an offense.


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## tupadre97 (Feb 13, 2014)

Doma said:


> So here's how it all works out. Law likely didn't have better haki than Vergo seeing as Vergo's specialty was tanking with CoA. But the reason Law still cut through him is because his attack(Haki+DF+whatever power he put into that sword swing) was greater than the defense Vergo's haki provided. This is why Law's mountain slasher broke Vergo's haki but that generic slash aimed at cut up Tashigi bounced off of Smoker's jutte. Otherwise anyone with even slightly better haki than Luffy would be completely invulnerable to his attacks which is obviously just stupid.
> 
> And just some speculation here, but I would bet that even with greater haki you don't always break through the other guy's defense. Haki is an armor first, it makes sense it provides a much greater defense than an offense.



Dude what are you talking about? Just bcuz someone has better haki than someone doesn't make them completely invulnerable to their attacks. If that was the then no one on amazon lily would have been hurt by Luffy's attacks seeing how he had no haki while they at least had some. Law obviously had to have had better haki than Vergo to cut him. It was already explained that the only way to survive Law's abilities are with haki and if your haki is weaker than his you have no protection from his slashes. Just bcuz Law isn't using fullbody haki doesn't mean Vergo had better CoA than him. No admiral or top tier used fullbody haki or armament preskip and its obvious they all have better haki than vergo. It was Law's haki that allowed him to cut Vergo and thats it. He used his full haki instead of just a small percentage like when smoker blocked it and he cut vergo. Its as simple as that.


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## Tregis (Feb 13, 2014)

I'd have to agree that Vergo most likely had better haki, it was just that Law's haki + DF that managed to get the job done.

I'm not under the belief that someone HAS to have better haki to slightly cut/harm someone else who has haki, unless the haki level is a huge gap of course, and Law's DF is kinda made for the "Bypassing durability" kinda of thing.  

I can find it reasonable to assume that he had just enough haki to manage to slightly damage Vergo, and that's when his DF came handy.


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## Dellinger (Feb 13, 2014)

What's the point of this argument?

Luffy wins,get over with it.


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## barreltheif (Feb 13, 2014)

tupadre97 said:


> Dude what are you talking about? *Just bcuz someone has better haki than someone doesn't make them completely invulnerable to their attacks.* If that was the then no one on amazon lily would have been hurt by Luffy's attacks seeing how he had no haki while they at least had some. *Law obviously had to have had better haki than Vergo to cut him.* It was already explained that the only way to survive Law's abilities are with haki and if your haki is weaker than his you have no protection from his slashes. Just bcuz Law isn't using fullbody haki doesn't mean Vergo had better CoA than him. No admiral or top tier used fullbody haki or armament preskip and its obvious they all have better haki than vergo. It was Law's haki that allowed him to cut Vergo and thats it. He used his full haki instead of just a small percentage like when smoker blocked it and he cut vergo. Its as simple as that.




You just contradicted yourself. If Law could only hurt Vergo by having stronger haki, then that would suggest that Vergo is invincible against anyone with weaker haki, which is ridiculous. Law won because his haki was enough to let his attack get through Vergo's defense.


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## BlueDemon (Feb 13, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> You just contradicted yourself. If Law could only hurt Vergo by having stronger haki, then that would suggest that Vergo is invincible against anyone with weaker haki, which is ridiculous. *Law won because his haki was enough to let his attack get through Vergo's defense.*



But what do you mean with "enough"? You mean strong enough on top of his haki (or the other way around)? Because otherwise, you'd be stating that his Haki was stronger as well.

As others have said, we know that Haki can be over come by physical power.
So between two people with the same stats, the one with the stronger haki will prevail.

If Oda keeps it simple, I can see Haki working the same applied to DF powers. So in this case, we can simply say that although Vergo had better Haki than Law, they underestimated the power of his DF.


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## Mihawk (Feb 13, 2014)

Luffy cannot low diff Vergo

The Vergo & Smoker underestimation is pretty staggering. These guys are stronger than scrub VAs like Maynard, Stainless, Mozambia, Cancer, etc. 

When fighters like Vergo, Smoker, Zoro, and Sanji are in a similar league with each other, how can it be considered rational to think that guys like Luffy or Law can low diff any one of them? Law one-shotted Vergo because that's how the "cutting" ability of his devil fruit powers, works. 

That is not, however, how Luffy's fighting style functions, as he utilises the stretching power of the Gomu Gomu, in conjunction to his CoA after the timeskip, and his fighting style as a brawler, like Vergo. Therefore, a fight against Luffy would be very different from a fight against Law, for Vergo. Law's cut ignores conventional durability, while a fight between Luffy & Vergo, would come alot down to taking physical damage, and landing blows on the opponent.

Like Luffy, while Vergo has also achieved a very high level of CoA, he seems to be slightly more proficient at hardening itself(Fullbody), though it is Luffy's coating of his Gomu Gomu techniques under hardening & CoA, which makes him so devastating, with techniques like Elephant Gun, Elephant Gattling, Grizzly Magnum, Thor Elephant Gun, Jet Gattling, and Red Hawk(if CoA is a prime component in this technique). 

Vergo has also shown very impressive durability for an M3 level fighter being able to tank substantial hits from Sanji's DJ, and Smoker's full on Hardening punches, without much impediment. His geppou, soru, and general movement + combat speed might be behind Sanji's speed(though he can still keep up just fine), but he more than makes up for it, with his superior durability + endurance. His striking force with his CoA reinforced bamboo staff, was able to incapacitate Smoker(who also just wanted to give Law his heart), and break his jutte. We also haven't seen the full extent of his Fullbody mode, be it the damage he can dish out in such a form, or the increase in durability(which is once again, an irrelevant factor against Law's ROOM: Mountain Cutter). Though we do not know by how much, we can presume that Vergo's Fullbody Mode makes him notably stronger in overall combat power, compared to his base, and his attributes such as haki, durability, and offense should generally increase. 

His level of CoA would bypass Luffy's blunt force immunity and do damage. 

All in all, I'd say that *Vergo would give Luffy a really tough time, but Luffy would win with high difficulty*. 

I believe that it would take Luffy's more devastating attacks, which I listed above, to take down Vergo, because I think that the great amount of AoE from those techniques, would be the key to make Vergo's durability break quickly. Though it won't start with that in the fight.


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## Canute87 (Feb 13, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Luffy cannot low diff Vergo
> 
> The Vergo & Smoker underestimation is pretty staggering. These guys are stronger than scrub VAs like Maynard, Stainless, Mozambia, Cancer, etc.
> 
> ...




How do you stack up Vergo against Flamingo?


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## Mihawk (Feb 13, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> How do you stack up Vergo against Flamingo?



Hmm, I think that he'd put up a better fight than Sanji, and can still reach him in the air with Geppou, but would still be vastly outclassed in every single aspect. 

I think that Doflamingo is a ways stronger than Luffy, and that the Seats would turn out to be stronger than Vergo.

I suppose Doflamingo would mid-diff Vergo, although that might be a bit generous, but I'm not sure yet.


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## Kings Disposition (Feb 14, 2014)

Luffy definitely wins.

Smoker was able to consistently outmaneuver Vergo and landed some pretty heavy blows. Luffy will able to do the same and hit even harder. It won't be easy due to Vergo's extreme defense and how deadly his demon staff is but Luffy will eventually get him down after an exhausting fight.


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