# Kisame vs. these three Espada (1-on-1)



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2015)

*Location:* Hueco Mundo
*Distance:* 10m
*Knowledge:* Basic knowledge of shinobi/Jutsu and Arrancar capabilities
*Mindset:* In-character
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-Ulquiorra's Segunda Etapa is allowed only as a last resort.
-Kisame starts fresh against each Espada.
-Speed equalized.

*R1:* vs. Grimmjow
*R2:* vs. Nnoitra
*R3:* vs. Ulquiorra

How does the Zero-Tailed Bijuu fare?


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

hmmm.. I think I could see him clearing if it's an IC fight. Grimmjow he should be able to outright take, Nnoitra too, given he's easily outmaneuvered.

I'd imagine it'd come down to killing Ulq pre-segunda in the third match, which seems to be in kisame's capabilities.

should have included Halibel though.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Mar 29, 2015)

If R2 is only a last resort Kisame can pull out the win on all of them.


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## Alita (Mar 29, 2015)

He clears IMO. Only possible threat is R2 depending on what the lanza is currently sitting at in energy.


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## Sablés (Mar 29, 2015)

What exactly does Kisame have going for him DC-wise. Fighting directly didn't appear to be his forte and he's kinda fucked given every one of the Espada can fly.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Hello everyone. Just putting it out there that im new here. But Ive seen these anime characters abilities. Let sjust be logical here. These bleach characters are being nerfed. Speed set to equal Is a nice try but lets think. against grimjow who can fly, and spam those tiny attacks, each capable of destroying those a large pillar. He can spam them all day at kisame. And alo he can fly and spam cero. Actually I guess it all depends on if kisame is allowed samehada. If so he can definitely absorb all cero and even grims desgarron I think its called. the degarron is his ultimate technique and arguably more powerful than the tiny darts that each busted the bulding sized pillars effortlessly. Combined with flight he can just spam those darts and do building level damage. And I don't think samehada can absorbe physical things. Add to the fact that Grimjow has the durability advantage and Is no slouch at cqc he should win.


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## Iwandesu (Mar 29, 2015)

fly actually will be a beast for kisame even with his huge endurance 
on an ic battle any of the espadas can likely stack enough damage to beat him as far as they don't resort to cqc and enter in his water prison range given enough time(ulq would have no problems doing so as he has most likely more raw power) 
grimmjow is more likely to try out cqc which means kisame should beat him more times than not


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## Dr. White (Mar 29, 2015)

Alita54 said:


> He clears IMO. Only possible threat is R2 depending on what the lanza is currently sitting at in energy.



This is what I was thinking. He was also keeping up pretty well with V1 Bee, so I don't Ulq can outspeed him.


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## SilverMizuji (Mar 29, 2015)

Kisame could solo all the espada putting them 1v1 is easy stomp for him.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Well If he puts up water dome than I guess he has the best chance. But otherwise no. You guys remember when rocklee faught sasuke? he was able to see rocklee but not react. Now I know that kisame has some sick reations, but can theres a difference between a single linear attack, vs a volley of high speed assaults. I can easily dodge a 90 mph baseball but a continuous volley would be impossible. Naruto characters tend to dodge single high speed attacks and never continuous ones. But I agree if kiame has water dome he beats grimy if not I think he loses more than not. Now with the scenario 2 he down right wins because I don't think Nnoitra is fast enough. However ulquiorra can spam cero and fly. and is physically superior to kisame. Water dome is a good equalizer however.

scenario 1 kisame wins if he has water dome if not he loses
scenario 2 Not even a match Kisame wins
Senario 3 Kisame wins if he puts water dome up and overpowers Ulquiorra immediately, otherwise he eventually goes r2 and lanza ftw 

Btw what do you guys think?


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## SilverMizuji (Mar 29, 2015)

Lanza is not hurting mid tire + characters :/


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

Ok, well that lanza crossed a pretty significant amount of distance in a matter of seconds, is at least town to small city level in DC and Is spammable. Am I missing something. I know what kisame is capable of. I was just wondering his counters. And ulquiorra can fly. However if kisame has samehada that givies him a better chance.


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## Iwandesu (Mar 29, 2015)

lanza is well capable of beating nardo mid tier and easily contends with high tiers.
it is a city level attack.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

That's what I thought. What does tier have to do with durability? HIgh tier with no durability = glass cannon


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## creative (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm uncertain as to whether or not Kisame the tools to beat Ulquiorra's second form. that's really the only challenge.


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## Sablés (Mar 29, 2015)

Still waiting on an answer for where Kisame's DC sits currently.

Kisame wasn't one to overpower his enemies so much as swarm them with supplementary abilities (sharks/water dome/ chakra absorption) along with  massive chakra reserves comparable to a Bijuu's making a battle of attrition totally in his favor.

I can see how someone like Nnoitra who is almost entirely melee would be hard-pressed to counter Kisame (assuming the latter isn't stupid enough to engage someone with 6 arms capable of damaging him) however Grimmjow and Ulquiorra are balanced and can take advantage of a ranged game.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> That's what I thought. What does tier have to do with durability? HIgh tier with no durability = glass cannon



in nardo and bleach, high tiers with no durability don't exist often, particularly due to the way physical fighters are required to have Dura within a certain area of their Damage capability due to being able to fight without hurting themselves.


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

> Still waiting on an answer for where Kisame's DC sits currently.
> 
> Kisame wasn't one to overpower his enemies so much as swarm them with supplementary abilities (sharks/water dome/ chakra absorption) along with a massive chakra reserves comparable to a Bijuu's making a battle of attrition totally in his favor.
> 
> I can see how someone like Nnoitra who is almost entirely melee would be hard-pressed to counter Kisame (assuming the latter isn't stupid enough to engage someone with 6 arms capable of damaging him) however Grimmjow and Ulquiorra are balanced and can take advantage of a ranged game.




Kisame can also dive underground... just to make it harder for the Bleach characters to hit him...

As for DC... The last time it was only Town level or something a little bit higher than that, I'm not sure what the current consensus is..


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> in nardo and bleach, high tiers with no durability don't exist often, particularly due to the way physical fighters are required to have Dura within a certain area of their Damage capability due to being able to fight without hurting themselves.



IIRC juubito needed to use the black sphere to block from paper bombs


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

and? he tanks his own bijudama before that and a few chapters later........

seriously.... also this shit is off topic....


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> and? he tanks his own bijudama before that and a few chapters later........
> 
> seriously.... also this shit is off topic....



My point is that JUUBITOa TOP TIER needed black pheres to tank lol paper bombs ... goodnite my friend


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> My point is that JUUBITOa TOP TIER needed black pheres to tank lol paper bombs ... goodnite my friend



oh hey look low-ends.
ignoring the fact paper bombs are far more powerful than an ordinary bomb in the first place, we go by high-end feats unless they're very heavily contradicted outliers.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> oh hey look low-ends.
> ignoring the fact paper bombs are far more powerful than an ordinary bomb in the first place, we go by high-end feats unless they're very heavily contradicted outliers.



My point was that just being high or top tier in Naruto doesn't mean u have the same in durability. Madara Is top tier and only has durability becaue of hashi cells and is no match without defeneses like susano. otherwise he is human level... wall level at best.... Naruto characters even on nagato and itachi level actively dodge or block lol kunai


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

And krillin get hurt by a rock.... again that point is low end showing doesn't disprove high end showing.... Unless there is a reason for it to be an outlier...


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 29, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> And krillin get hurt by a rock.... again that point is low end showing doesn't disprove high end showing.... Unless there is a reason for it to be an outlier...



If someone is supposed to have supposed high level durability and cant tank paper bombs which did damage that was pread out I honestly don't care about high end. Point is he still could not tank it. he needed to be protected. Unless he somehow got a power up to tank said attack it just goes to show. And also nagato and itachi are high tier, still have kunai level durability


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

............................................................. wow

so you don't accept it because you don't like

shit like that don't fly here..



> he somehow got a power up to tank said attack it just goes to show.



If we are wasting time at low end.. you got Thanos getting arrested by the police
Silver surfer getting knockout by a plank 
superman getting knockout by a boxer

and other shit... seriously... this is how terribly dumb your argument is.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 29, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> If someone is supposed to have supposed high level durability and cant tank paper bombs which did damage that was pread out I honestly don't care about high end. Point is he still could not tank it. he needed to be protected. Unless he somehow got a power up to tank said attack it just goes to show. And also nagato and itachi are high tier, still have kunai level durability



you're right.
While we're on that subject
hmmm, look at all these panels we can see the characters moving clearly even though we have them pegged at speed of sound+
those were high ends but I've decided I don't care because look at this low end here that somehow proves they only move that fast despite the higher showings.

While we're at it you're totally right about nagato and itachi too. clearly kunai-level durability.
Of course it still beats Bleach because halibel was considered stronger than Ulq Grimm and Nnoitra giving them water level durability.


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## shade0180 (Mar 29, 2015)

there's also a telephone pole durability...

Seriously..... 

If we are using low end bleach is a tier lower than both one piece and Nardo....


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Mar 29, 2015)

Kisame should be able to absorb all of the Espada's attacks.  Most of them are pure energy.  They basically both use chakra.  So he should rape all of them.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Still doesn't counter nagato and itachi begin high tier and virtually no durability. My point is that high tier doest mean auto high durability. U saying nagato or itachi can tank a paper bomb to the face? That's all I was saying is that being up there in tier doesn't assure durability. And high tier doesn't mean ALL ARROUND QUALITY. Maybe it means u just have certaing abilities that give u hax or make u a threat. It speaks absolutely nothing on durability ...again nagato / itachi


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Still doesn't counter nagato and itachi begin high tier and virtually no durability. My point is that high tier doest mean auto high durability. U saying nagato or itachi can tank a paper bomb to the face? That's all I was saying is that being up there in tier doesn't assure durability. And high tier doesn't mean ALL ARROUND QUALITY. Maybe it means u just have certaing abilities that give u hax or make u a threat. It speaks absolutely nothing on durability ...again nagato / itachi



it doesn't, but that's where they generally sit.

and that's true, it's just not so much in the HST. there's quite a few fictions out there with high tiers that have no durability.

Nagato and Itachi have a low durability for their tier themselves, but when we ignore jobbing or just general lack of author accountability, they actually should be able to tank an ordinary paper bomb by the way we evaluate durability. matter of fact I do believe even some genin manage that dura. 

 We do consider kabuto low for his tier but useful due to his abilities, for instance, but he's still far above most ninja. This isn't something we blanket apply but just something that's been noticed across the board for nardo for some time.

A lot of it comes down to the fact nardo characters display a lot of physical strength and cqc combat, which - and this is true for every fiction, bleach included - means they can withstand the force of their own close-combat blows. nagato being able to stab through town level SM nardo is thus a feat for him, as is blocking his attacks without his bones being shattered from blocking.

DBZ characters get dura equal to their casual attacks for the same reason, as do bleach characters and others.


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## Hardcore (Mar 30, 2015)

There was that theory that more chakra = more durability in Naruto


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## LazyWaka (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> IIRC juubito needed to use the black sphere to block from paper bombs



Um, no he didn't. 

As for his DC, he could physically compete with Killer Bee who is comparable in strength to the Raikage. So town level+ to small city level wouldn't really be a stretch.

That said I don't see him beating R2 Ulquiorra.


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## Hardcore (Mar 30, 2015)

Waka



Hardcore said:


> There was that theory that more chakra = more durability in Naruto



^

Remember that? 

It was almost legit at my time


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## BreakFlame (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Still doesn't counter nagato and itachi begin high tier and virtually no durability. My point is that high tier doest mean auto high durability. U saying nagato or itachi can tank a paper bomb to the face? That's all I was saying is that being up there in tier doesn't assure durability. And high tier doesn't mean ALL ARROUND QUALITY. Maybe it means u just have certaing abilities that give u hax or make u a threat. It speaks absolutely nothing on durability ...again nagato / itachi



This isn't how the OBD works. The idea here is that if characters were fully capable of doing everything they were shown with a reasonable level of competency, they would be at this level.

Someone who can take a punch that drills a mile deep hole in the ground being cut with a kunai is dumb. Someone who can shatter planets being trapped by a cave-in is dumb. We call that stuff Plot Induced Stupidity and it's rejected in OBD battles by default.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 30, 2015)

Actually, Nagato tanked a V2 Lariat from Bee, so his durability is actually pretty up there.



Hardcore said:


> Waka
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It really depends, honestly. Part 1 Naruto had a crap ton of chakra but he wasn't notably durable. Would probably only count if they used it for an armor ability.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

No no no no no... just no... stop evading the evidence. Nagato would die and itachi would too. Hell wasn't ems Mads killed by a Kuna I or something against hashi? ...stop lying to ur self. Use some thing called common sense. If these ninja had such durability they wouldn't need to Susano up and use preta path... u guys do be getting owned yet


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> No no no no no... just no... stop evading the evidence. Nagato would die and itachi would too. Hell wasn't ems Mads killed by a Kuna I or something against hashi? ...stop lying to ur self. Use some thing called common sense. If these ninja had such durability they wouldn't need to Susano up and use preta path... u guys do be getting owned yet



We're not evading evidence. we're ignoring low ends. which mean nothing in this BD.
Nagato, as was just stated, tanked a lariat.
You're currently evading that shit.

That said... sigh.
Kunai are a type of knife.
Do you know how much energy a knife creates?
here's a hint: none.
Trunks also used a sword against frieza.
Does that mean we scale his dura to sword durability?

Or maybe we use the slightest common sense and knowledge of physics to know that the energy in a sword or knife is based entirely on the physical strength of it's owner condensed into a much smaller area in order to create a more effective strike based off of it's users statistics.

For someone who claims to "understand physics" so well, it seems you forgot that simple rule.


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## Sablés (Mar 30, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> As for his DC,* he could physically compete with Killer Bee who is comparable in strength to the Raikage*. So town level+ to small city level wouldn't really be a stretch.
> 
> That said I don't see him beating R2 Ulquiorra.



Care to give examples?


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## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Care to give examples?



Bee beat out V2 Ei clothesline in Base IIRC (or V1 don't recall).


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> We're not evading evidence. we're ignoring low ends. which mean nothing in this BD.
> Nagato, as was just stated, tanked a lariat.
> You're currently evading that shit.
> 
> ...


 Really? That "sword" was welded by someone on another level than frieza. Obviously trunks own physical strength played a role. Stop getting owned man. U should know basic dbz logic. By the way if high tiers had such durability like u said they shouldn't need to defend or dodge...wait who does this In naruto ...hmmm everyon!!! Stop acting like ur proving something. Narutoverse is notorious for evading shit that bleach characters would shrug off. We have ichigo tanking grimmjow darts each that busted a building sized pillar. He took 5 of them... let itachi try that ... hmmm nope ...Susano up ...check mate boyz yet again

Gtg back to work I'll be back to own after...


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Really? That "sword" was welded by someone on another level than frieza. Obviously trunks own physical strength played a role.


Yeah.
That's the fucking point I'm making.




> Stop getting owned man. U should know basic dbz logic.


that's not DBZ logic.
That's basic physical reality.
If someone of ridiculous strength threw a kunai, it's more effective.
If Goku throws a kunai, it'll go through the earth.
Thus vegeta dying to a kunai thrown by goku wouldn't = kunai durability.




> By the way if high tiers had such durability like u said they shouldn't need to defend or dodge...wait who does this In naruto ...hmmm everyon!!!


right!
And bleach!
And DBZ!
It's almost like their opponents still have the strength to cut through their durability or something.
Ignoring the fact plenty of people flat-out don't bother or just no-sell like many of gaara's transformed states, Kisame against certain weaker opponents, Jirobo just flat-out tanking some of Choji's hits...



> Stop acting like ur proving something. Narutoverse is notorious for evading shit that bleach characters would shrug off. We have ichigo tanking grimmjow darts each that busted a building sized pillar. He took 5 of them...


And was visibly injured.
Bleach does plenty of evading too.



> et itachi try that ... hmmm nope ...Susano up ...check mate boyz yet again



I don't think you know what checkmate means, and I also don't think you understand what a bleach wanker you are.
Taking high-ends from one series and then taking low-ends from another to compare is the very definition of dishonest debating, and you've certainly proven you can take it to another level.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Yeah.
> That's the fucking point I'm making.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not wanting I'm stating a FACT ichigo tanked 5 building busters without so, much as a flinch.  Let's see anyone besides raikage tank that. U seem to think that naruto has better durability than bleach.... when it doesnt. Show me any naruto character outright tanking something then come back to me

Naruto for example would die if a kunai sliced his throat. also I hope ur not implying that frieza had sword level dura ... please don't ...we all know it has to do with trunks physical strength. Not just the sword ..


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Naruto for example would die if a kunai sliced his throat. also I hope ur not implying that frieza had sword level dura ... please don't ...we all know it has to do with trunks physical strength. Not just the sword ..



naruto would... if the character was appropriately strong.
I like how you ignore the fact that I was using Trunks strength cutting with the sword as an example why your initial argument was wrong due to the same fact you're using to justify that sword cut as working.
Nardo outright tanked things like getting slapped around by the kyuubi, bijuudama, impalement, chibaku tensei crushing him, shinra tensei smashing him around...


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## Iwandesu (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Naruto for example would die if a kunai sliced his throat. also I hope ur not implying that frieza had sword level dura ... please don't ...we all know it has to do with trunks physical strength. Not just the sword ..


>implying fooders can cut naruto throat with a kunai
>forgetting that sm nardo tanked falling on dozens of stalactites 
>implying blades don't let you hit a couple of classes above yourself
>implying that slicing damage x explosions isn't a common and unjustified physically troope in fiction just like heat
well at least those are things a noob would do


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Are u seriously saying that the only reason naruto would get cut is because the kunai is thow by someone with significant strength that would penatrate him? No! Naruto is still human has human level durability. Even madara was actively dodging fodder ninja kunai and paper bombs. U saying naruto has above human durability man. Such a wanker man. Dbz characters are known for their super human durability.  Getting punched through mountains ...tanking energy blasts that could bust mountains moons etc .... naruto is still human and I have seen him dodge complete FODDER KUNAI. He has even cut him self in the beginNing of the series goes to show how durable naruto is right... while ichigo tanks byakuya lightning to the face, palms block level cero and tanks multi building level darts (5) simultaneously ... gg check mate


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## Kaaant (Mar 30, 2015)

I see Kisame getting cut up by the lariat as kishi playing the cutting vs impact trope personally; technically Bee never even hit him, he hit Samehada - which hit kisame. We have Kisame taking Hirodora on, after previously getting cut by a sword and a _pencil_ of all things.  

What is the durability of Madara's susanoo? Iirc Gai flattened it, and he didn't even have Gates and was exhausted. 

Unless V2 Lariat is > Hirodora, then ignore this.


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## Gunstarvillain (Mar 30, 2015)

The real question is can samehada absorb lanza?


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Kaaant said:


> I see Kisame getting cut up by the lariat as kishi playing the cutting vs impact trope personally; technically Bee never even hit him, he hit Samehada - which hit kisame. We have Kisame taking Hirodora on, after previously getting cut by a sword and a _pencil_ of all things.
> 
> What is the durability of Madara's susanoo? Iirc Gai flattened it, and he didn't even have Gates and was exhausted.
> 
> Unless V2 Lariat is > Hirodora, then ignore this.



So what to do about this inconsistencies.  Is pencil > hirodora? Obviously joking ... but what is Kisames accepted durability right now.


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## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> So what to do about this inconsistencies.  Is pencil > hirodora? Obviously joking ... but what is Kisames accepted durability right now.



City + via Hirudora surivival.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 30, 2015)

He would beat the 5th and 6th espada but i am doubtful of his capability to absorb lanza. It is city level and i don't remember kisame's samahada absorbing something on that level(it's best feat is eating killer bee's V2 shroud in one go).


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> City + via Hirudora surivival.



There's something wrong here. Maybe he can tank blunt force but obviously not piercing ...as a ration infused pencil pierced him quite easily. One of Grimmys darts should do the same or defiantly his degarron unless he has samehada


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Are u seriously saying that the only reason naruto would get cut is because the kunai is thow by someone with significant strength that would penatrate him?


yes.



> No! Naruto is still human has human level durability.


So are DBZ characters like krillin and such.
Both use Ki(chakra in nardo's case but even Kishi's stated it's just ki and he used the wrong word and stuck with it after)



> Even madara was actively dodging fodder ninja kunai and paper bombs.


Goku actively dodges people far below him in power level rather than take a hit more than once.
Jeice and burter come to mind.
and their punches are less concentrated than ninja kunai.
Ignoring that paper bombs outdo modern explosives in the first place.


> U saying naruto has above human durability man. Such a wanker man. Dbz characters are known for their super human durability.  Getting punched through mountains ...tanking energy blasts that could bust mountains moons etc .... naruto is still human and I have seen him dodge complete FODDER KUNAI.


And roshi and goku dodge bullets after 21st budokai despite having durability way above bullet level.
Hell goku's taken out by a missile way lower than his durability.



> He has even cut him self in the beginNing of the series goes to show how durable naruto is right... while ichigo tanks byakuya lightning to the face, palms block level cero and tanks multi building level darts (5) simultaneously ... gg check mate


Ichigo got taken out by the first kido in the middle of the series and was vulnerable to his powerless dad's noogies.
Goes to show how durable he is.
Or maybe we stop using beginning of series then comparing it to end of series you dishonest toad.

Stop quoting low-end nardo feats as a way to evaluate them as a series then quoting high-end Bleach feats. have the slightest shred of dignity or honesty.

Or we could always just bring up the "5 gigajoules" feat that would leave everyone captain-level and up at mere building level with their best attacks.
S


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## Dr. White (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> There's something wrong here. Maybe he can tank blunt force but obviously not piercing ...as a ration infused pencil pierced him quite easily. One of Grimmys darts should do the same or defiantly his degarron unless he has samehada



Bee is a high level raiton user from which I recall shits on durability. So it was more Bee's Raiton mastery.

Kisame does have Same.

Is Grem in this match?


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## Kaaant (Mar 30, 2015)

Iirc, in his shark form he completely ate the entire V2 Chakra shroud, even past V1. Also: GSB? Kisame basically affirms that the reason Hiro wasn't eaten was because it was a physical attack, which had it been chakra would have, so (and this is probably going to sound really sketchy) would it be too far to say that eating and actual City level energy attack would be absorbed just as quick?


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> yes.
> 
> 
> So are DBZ characters like krillin and such.
> ...



First off roshi is human so gg in addition Gohan was catching bullets bare handed gg. And no goku doesn't need to dodge bullets. He has super saiyan durability. U must be talking about dB base goku weaker version. Goku can stand and tank mountain busters ... u still lose bro let's see naruto tank a ki blast from goku ....hmmm wait... he cant.... stop debating I get bored when I own so easily


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> First off roshi is human so gg in addition Gohan was catching bullets bare handed gg. And no goku doesn't need to dodge bullets. He has super saiyan durability. U must be talking about dB base goku weaker version. Goku can stand and tank mountain busters ... u still lose bro let's see naruto tank a ki blast from goku ....hmmm wait... he cant.... stop debating I get bored when I own so easily



roshi is human. he was also fighting evenly with 21st goku that can jump hundreds of feet in the air.
not sure what being human has to do with it.
Krillin's also human and he's done just fine as far as frieza saga, taking and giving blows with the strongest aliens in the universe.

DB base goku is still blocking kamehameha and dodon rays and absorbing bullets as early as the start of it.

The only one convinced of your ownage is you, dude. 
Nardo can actually tank a ki blast from goku until Z starts.
And it's moving the goalpost in the highest form.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Naruto can tank ki blasts now ...o_0 ... I'm done


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Naruto can tank ki blasts now ...o_0 ... I'm done



what the hell do you think bijuudama are?
it's ki(chakra but it's literally ki) Focused into a concentrated blast of energy, the smallest of which blew up mountain ranges and the biggest one to be created in-series was stated able to destroy a planet.
Why are you surprised about this in a series where they literally make moons and in the newest movie cut one in half.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> what the hell do you think bijuudama are?
> it's ki(chakra but it's literally ki) Focused into a concentrated blast of energy, the smallest of which blew up mountain ranges and the biggest one to be created in-series was stated able to destroy a planet.
> Why are you surprised about this in a series where they literally make moons and in the newest movie cut one in half.



Ate u serious? Naruto never tank a bb.... he simply deflected it. There's a difference. I can block a punch and I can tank a punch. The latter hurts a bit more. BTW u don't know how much a unexploded tbb weighs. It's unqualifiable. Id say it ways a few tons at most. It is not the same energy as a  exploded tbb. Again deflected


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Ate u serious? Naruto never tank a bb.... he simply deflected it. There's a difference. I can block a punch and I can tank a punch. The latter hurts a bit more. BTW u don't know how much a unexploded tbb weighs. It's unqualifiable. Id say it ways a few tons at most. It is not the same energy as a  exploded tbb. Again deflected



It's the same amount of energy condensed.
And blocking a punch or tanking a punch literally just reduces the wear by a small number. even a slightly superhuman being will just punch your arm off if you block.
Hell, there's people IRL who can do that regardless, and hit so hard their own bodies can wear down due to it.
you're just making sure a less vital area gets injured.

and what's this about weight when we're talking about energy? energy doesn't "Weigh" anything. It holds force. A bijuudama needs to have matter in it to weigh something regardless.
Your "physics" knowledge is pretty damn sketchy.

Next you'll be trying to talk about dbz ki blast weight.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Not its not the same. That's like saying Lanza has the same amount of energy as when it's exploded. When apparently it doesnt. A tbb that isn't exploded is unqualifiedable. It energy is released whe. It's exploded. Just like how an atom relates energy that way ...so yea ...


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

I meant to say Lanza when it's held vs Lanzap when it's detonated


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## Byrd (Mar 30, 2015)

> Ate u serious? *Naruto never tank a bb.... he simply deflected it.* There's a difference. I can block a punch and I can tank a punch. The latter hurts a bit more. BTW u don't know how much a unexploded tbb weighs. It's unqualifiable. Id say it ways a few tons at most. It is not the same energy as a exploded tbb. Again deflected



 isn't this the same thing


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Not its not the same. That's like saying Lanza has the same amount of energy as when it's exploded. When apparently it doesnt. A tbb that isn't exploded is unqualifiedable. It energy is released whe. It's exploded. Just like how an atom relates energy that way ...so yea ...



it... it does.
There's never been anything stating lanza doesn't have the same energy when in it's spear form.
the fact it's meant to be used as a weapon as well as an explosive actually leans towards it having the same power both ways.

that's a big part of why they show Resurrecion Ichigo no-selling it by breaking it's tip.

Atoms have nothing to do with it given that this has nothing to do with matter - it's a bunch of energy collected into a small pocket that then explodes when it needs to. that doesn't change the fact it's a giant mixture of heat and kinetic force.

Though even ignoring that Nardo's been blocking superhuman strength and tanking shit of the same kind since he went KN0 againt oro's snake that was destroying dozens of trees, then blocking it's full charge.

even ignoring that, genin have wall-level feats of physical destruction and as a result need to be able to tank eachother's hits, so... Even BoS naruto is superhuman, albeit about as superhuman as kenshin.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Lanza Is not the same as lanza held in the hand. Are u blind? Did u see what it did when it exploded? ...sigh .... such .... urrrghhh


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## Byrd (Mar 30, 2015)

What the fuck


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Lanza Is not the same as lanza held in the hand. Are u blind? Did u see what it did when it exploded? ...sigh .... such .... urrrghhh



I saw what it did.
Why would I assume the condensed form doesn't have the same amoutn of energy? it's all actively there.
something doesn't need to actively explode to have an energy rating, anymore than I assume goku's fist is weaker than every ki blast just because it doesn't explode people with every punch.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 30, 2015)

If kuroimugetsu is not on the same page as everyone after 80 posts on the topic then he never will be.

Just leave him be.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> If kuroimugetsu is not on the same page as everyone after 80 posts on the topic then he never will be.
> 
> Just leave him be.



All the potential energy inside a atom is there so u saying an atom is equal to a split atom? No... it's there obviously but its not being released. Lord allmighty. People acting like their right. Exploding lanza > unexploded... common flipping sense.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

We dun yet?


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> All the potential energy inside a atom is there so u saying an atom is equal to a split atom? No... it's there obviously but its not being released. Lord allmighty. People acting like their right. Exploding lanza > unexploded... common flipping sense.



What does an atom have to do with this?
Why are you comparing matter to energy?
what do you even think matter has to do with energy?


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Matter and energy are the same. At least I think. I think matter stored potential energy just like an atom before it's split. ...and obviously lanza is utilizing more energy as it explodes. Common sense still > obd fanboyism


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Don't quote me on the matter and energy thing just something I thought I heard.... wtf to this thread man


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Matter and energy are the same. At least I think. I think matter stored potential energy just like an atom before it's split. ...and obviously lanza is utilizing more energy as it explodes. Common sense still > obd fanboyism



Matter is pulled on energy pushed into a new form entirely.
They ain't the same at all.
they act entirely different.
The problem is nothing about matter, well, matters when we're talking about an energy lance.
this is like arguing that a normal sword is comparable to one made of fire with the same logic applying. that's how different these two things are.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Matter is pulled on energy pushed into a new form entirely.
> They ain't the same at all.
> they act entirely different.
> The problem is nothing about matter, well, matters when we're talking about an energy lance.
> this is like arguing that a normal sword is comparable to one made of fire with the same logic applying. that's how different these two things are.



Lord please help these poor souls. Soooo booty hurt. Thinks unexploded lanza is = to exploded one... listen the energy might be there but doesn't mean it's utilized the same way. Just like a grenade has potential energy and when it explodes .... boom turns into kinetic which = dc .... I'm not gunna argue it's just obvious


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> Lord please help these poor souls. Soooo booty hurt. Thinks unexploded lanza is = to exploded one... listen the energy might be there but doesn't mean it's utilized the same way. Just like a grenade has potential energy and when it explodes .... boom turns into kinetic which = dc .... I'm not gunna argue it's just obvious



except that's entirely different.
because it's a reaction made by matter.
Not a lance made of energy.
Again, dissimilar comparison.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

He's going about it in a retarded way, obviously, but I'd honestly also have to disagree with the notion that Lanza used as a melee weapon is as potent as when it explodes.

The energy released in its detonations are still contained within the thing itself regardless of whether it explodes or not, needless to say, but it'd need to well.. explode to release that shit.

That's not to say that H2 crushing it isn't impressive, since it clearly did blow up when he did, and crushing it would kind of require his hand to contain the energy anyways.

But deflecting a BB shouldn't be the same as tanking its explosion.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> He's going about it in a retarded way, obviously, but I'd honestly also have to disagree with the notion that Lanza used as a melee weapon is as potent as when it explodes.
> 
> The energy released in its detonations are still contained within the thing itself regardless of whether it explodes or not, needless to say, but it'd need to well.. explode to release that shit.
> 
> ...



we treat ki blasts similarly, do we not? hence why goku gets Dura from blocking piccolo's Gigatons
It's still the same actual energy, just condensed into a ball. I don't know if you wouldn't still need to overcome that when you stop it.

Particularly when lanza's being used as a piercing weapon.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

The argument would hold weight with simple energy blasts.

But the most apt description I can think of in regards to Lanza is to think of it like a missile. The KE behind the missile's mass and speed is distinct from the payload contained within it.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> The argument would hold weight with simple energy blasts.
> 
> But the most apt description I can think of in regards to Lanza is to think of it like a missile. The KE behind the missile's mass and speed is distinct from the payload contained within it.



maybe then?
I don't know, given that the energy seemed to be still being applied for combat purposes, given Ulquiorra was using it like a blade the whole battle. still, the argument could be made that it was supposed to be used to stab and then explode at close range given he didn't use it for long. I just saw it as more akin to sauzer's blade in it's lance form.


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Yes, because he's swinging it around as a melee weapon.

It's not some sort of flame spear that actively radiates energy regardless of how much speed the user puts behind its mass.


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## AgentAAA (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Yes, because he's swinging it around as a melee weapon.
> 
> It's not some sort of flame spear that radiates energy regardless of how much speed the user puts behind its mass.



well it is a lightning spear. but fair enough.
Not like R2 Ulq's casual strikes are that far behind anyway.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> He's going about it in a retarded way, obviously, but I'd honestly also have to disagree with the notion that Lanza used as a melee weapon is as potent as when it explodes.
> 
> The energy released in its detonations are still contained within the thing itself regardless of whether it explodes or not, needless to say, but it'd need to well.. explode to release that shit.
> 
> ...



Lol common sense prevails


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## Regicide (Mar 30, 2015)

Don't get me wrong, you're still an idiot.


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## Fujita (Mar 30, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> It's still the same actual energy, just condensed into a ball. I don't know if you wouldn't still need to overcome that when you stop it.



Usually when these things explode, they expend all their energy and vanish, no? If it's still there, then you should probably assume that most of its energy is also still there and you didn't need to expend all that energy in stopping it. 

or something like that 



Regicide said:


> Don't get me wrong, you're still an idiot.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 30, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Don't get me wrong, you're still an idiot.



Don't get me wrong ... I'm still right and ur wrong ... i take that over being an idiot anyday.. .gg and goodnight


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## Nikushimi (Mar 31, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> should have included Halibel though.



Who gives a fuck about Halibitch.



Dr. White said:


> This is what I was thinking. He was also keeping up pretty well with V1 Bee, so I don't Ulq can outspeed him.



Speed is equalized.



SilverMizuji said:


> Kisame could solo all the espada putting them 1v1 is easy stomp for him.



Uh...no.

Grimm, Nnoi, and Ulq are about where Kisame sits.

Barragan and Starrk would dominate, and the consensus thus far seems to be that R2 Ulq would do the same.

All Espada at once vs. Kisame is a massive stomp favoring the Espada.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 31, 2015)

In regards to the whole "piercing durability" shit. Killer Bee actually did try and stab Kisame. The end result was that it was a very shallow cut do to Kisame absorbing the Raiton chakra from it. In other words Kisame can tank Peircing attacks from People of Killer Bee's level provided they aren't elementally enhanced.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> In regards to the whole "piercing durability" shit. Killer Bee actually did try and stab Kisame. The end result was that it was a very shallow cut do to Kisame absorbing the Raiton chakra from it. In other words Kisame can tank Peircing attacks from People of Killer Bee's level provided they aren't elementally enhanced.



No iirc the pencil still pierced him without raiton. So that makes me wonder. Kisames durability sucks against piercing and a single dart was building level. He can spam and kisame only absorbed when he had samehad a which I assume he had here. But still can't tank too Many building level darts


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

And another reason I say cap isn't quad is cuz within 5 seconds of reading ur Calc u already have people saying that its wrong. U seem to ignore the fact that I always have a logical reason to agree or disagree. I never say something without rrason. U ask me why I believe something I'll give u my reason. I use logic. People here know that not even some superhuman are quad digit so why would cap be? Common sense > obd nonsense ...so yea I can say thing like "get owned" all I want. Its like my catch phrase now because I've given multiple evidences and no one has did proved me. So yes that's the equivalent to getting owned. U just talk about negged and spelling. Ignoring that he's not quad. I honestly don't need to debate because in right. Just want to see some of the vets get that booty owned


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

wrong thread dude....


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> wrong thread dude....



My bad... lol had a arguement about cap not being quad digit in reaction time....


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## LazyWaka (Mar 31, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> No* iirc the pencil still pierced him without raiton.* So that makes me wonder. Kisames durability sucks against piercing and a single dart was building level. He can spam and kisame only absorbed when he had samehad a which I assume he had here. But still can't tank too Many building level darts



Well you're remembering wrong.




Killer Bee only threw the pencil at him twice and both times it was infused with Raiton.

Then we have Killer Bee, whom Kisame is > than outside of Bijuu power, tanking a Chidori (a piercing attack).


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## Sherlōck (Mar 31, 2015)

Byrd said:


> isn't this the same thing



No .   .


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Well you're remembering wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





u clearly see the raitonless pencil penetrate kiames skin. They even go on to explain how samehada absorbed the ration and then u can clearly see the pencil penetrating, and hear it as well ...


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## Sherlōck (Mar 31, 2015)

>>> Posting anime clip to justify his claim.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

The video is in Spanish forgive me, but still kisame has poor resistance to piercing attacks. A pencil was enough to penetrate his skin (AFTER SAMEHADA ABSORBED THE RAITON FROM IT) so girmmy spams darts... unless water dome is up. If not he loses by dart spam, plus most of grimmys attacks are sharp and piercing types ...even his desgarron. his darts, he has blades on his arms etc


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

Sherlōck said:


> >>> Posting anime clip to justify his claim.



Are u implying that something different happened in the manga? Because if not it reallydoent matter. If the same exact thing happened in anime and manga both are justifiable. And the pencil still penetrated his skin in the manga right? so whats the problem. If the pencil didn't penetrate him then Ill concede to the part about pencil level durability. But still grimy has building level darts that are at least sonic - super sonic, and can be spammed... but again.... did the pencil penetrate in the manga?


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## Shunssj (Mar 31, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> The video is in Spanish forgive me, but still kisame has poor resistance to piercing attacks. A pencil was enough to penetrate his skin (AFTER SAMEHADA ABSORBED THE RAITON FROM IT) so girmmy spams darts... unless water dome is up. If not he loses by dart spam, plus most of grimmys attacks are sharp and piercing types ...even his desgarron. his darts, he has blades on his arms etc



That isn't the point, anime means nothing


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

even shows a knife penetrating kisame. ...I have no doubt hes durable against blunt force but not piercing


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

Shunssj said:


> That isn't the point, anime means nothing



Yet even in the manga scan u provided for me, it shows a knife penetrating his skin.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 31, 2015)

Kisame gets cut by a pencil only when covered in bee's raiton. The same raiton hyped to be more potent than any wind chakra flow frequency. It's more of a prop to bee than a dehype to kisame.

Lol that sword did what that bush brow dude said it just grazed him. That shit was nothing.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

NOOOOOOOOO the ration was absorbed by samehada. And before that he gets cut by a flipping knife... are u blind. did u not see the knife sticking out of kisames arm? If it couldn't penetrate him it wouldn't even do that. It would bouce off. Its literally sticking out of his arm


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)




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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

er samehada wasn't anywhere near kisame.... did you miss the part where he kicked samehada away and needed to pick up Bee's sword...


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## Alita (Mar 31, 2015)

It's arguable that kisame could absorb city+ attacks since he was able to absorb all the chakra from V2 killerbee from what I remember and his punch's hit harder than gai's AT.

Anyways I looked up the DC of the lanza and it's only at 15 megatons apparently so kisame definitely beats R2. Gai's AT is much more powerful than that and kisame took it head on.


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

> It's arguable that kisame could absorb city+ attacks since he was able to absorb all the chakra from V2 killerbee from what I remember and his punch's hit harder than gai's AT.



Isn't his absorption only due to samehada



This is what he did before Bee tossed that pencil....


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

samehada is right in his flippin hand, HES HOLDING THE THING !!!!! ARRRRGHGHGHGHGHGHGH 
lord all mighty
The wankage the wankage 
no not even that
the stupidity. theres a knife sticking out of kisames arm. Hes holding samehada... its ur OWN SCAN BRO!!!
having a heart attack over here


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

Er yea except take a look at the fucking scan I posted. he kicked it away.. how can it be in his hand?? you dolt..

And... The caps have appeared..

So  what's next?


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

whatever I concede to him kicking it away. But did he not get penetrated by a knife? I see it sticking out of his body. And the only weapon that b used ration on was the pencils no? if so than an ordinary knife penetrated kisame... if that is true than Im right, if not than im wrong ... how does the knife get in kisames arm... if he was so durable its wouldn't pierce his skin


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 31, 2015)

Kuroimugetsu look at the scans i posted again please. The pencil is shown flying through a tree still covered in raiton after hitting kisame and kisame is shown bleeding in the next panel. Guess what happened? 

Also stop bringing up that knife in the arm stuff it was noted to be an insignificant wound seriously kisame is clearly not phased at all by that shit. I'm not sure why you're clinging to that to try and downplay kisame's sturdiness anyway but meh.


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

Because it was a superhuman who fucking put it in his arm... Do you have any idea how energy transfer works?


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## Alita (Mar 31, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Isn't his absorption only due to samehada
> 
> 
> 
> This is what he did before Bee tossed that pencil....


He was able to absorb bee's chakra while inside the water dome. He also absorbed the chakra from someone after his fight with gai.(It was just before he commited suicide.)


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

> He was able to absorb bee's chakra while inside the water dome. He also absorbed the chakra from someone after his fight with gai.(It was just before he commited suicide.)



Didn't he combined with samehada for that to be in his shark form? 

Could you link the chapter??


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 31, 2015)

I think that is what alita is talking about when it comes to kisame being able to absorb chakra without samahada. He lets go of samahada on the previous page.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> Because it was a superhuman who fucking put it in his arm... Do you have any idea how energy transfer works?



Well guess what buddy. Grimmy is super human as well. People on this forum frustrate me with their bias and fanboyism. Grimmy is leagues above the person who threw that sword. His darts are casually building level. ANd are arrow dynamic. which means its cutting force. and has blades on his arms and also his ultimate technique is a cutting one. Point is kisame gets cut badly here. did u think the person cutting kisame would be lol normal human level or something? still my point is that he is weaker against cutting force. so surviving gais air pressure attack doesn't automatically mean that anything with les dc is unaffective, as I has soo loongly displayed. 

Survived hirudora but got cut by something less Destructive. grimy can win if dome isn't up, but if not kisame loess


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

............................. dolt there are multiple level of super human

Bee and bleach have a pretty large gap between them

just to make this clear.

town level is 1000x weaker than City/mountain level
City level is 1000x weaker than island level
 and so on...... 

yes the gap is that large so we aren't really being bias.. here.. we just know what we are comparing better than you...



> I think that is what alita is talking about when it comes to kisame being able to absorb chakra without samahada. He lets go of samahada on the previous page.



well compare to this and the other one he is still pretty close to samehada though.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Mar 31, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> ............................. dolt there are multiple level of super human
> 
> Bee and bleach have a pretty large gap between them
> 
> ...



Realy? unless that sword was thrown at several miles per second it still isn't changing a thin ... im tired though maybe ill try a new thread


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 31, 2015)

Don't insult him, just have fun with this.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 31, 2015)

... How the hell is KuroiMugetsu single-handedly hijacking this thread?

I can't lurk in peace when one guy is hogging a thread.


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## shade0180 (Mar 31, 2015)

Alita he does have a jutsu that eats chakra which is the strongest he have shown so far.... 

My best guess is he can only absorb chakra as long as a part of him is inside a body of water... that's the only time that ability worked..


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 31, 2015)

Watching the video the pencil still very clearly had the Raiton shroud. I have no idea where you got the idea it didn't. The thing Samehada ate the shroud off of was a sword Bee threw.


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## Alita (Mar 31, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I think that is what alita is talking about when it comes to kisame being able to absorb chakra without samahada. He lets go of samahada on the previous page.


Yeah, that's what I was talking about.


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## LazyWaka (Mar 31, 2015)

KuroiMugetsu said:


> u clearly see the raitonless pencil penetrate kiames skin. They even go on to explain how samehada absorbed the ration and then u can clearly see the pencil penetrating, and hear it as well ...



Non canon.



KuroiMugetsu said:


> *Are u implying that something different happened in the manga*? Because if not it reallydoent matter.



Yes actually seeing as the panels I showed are the only times he threw a pencil in the manga and it was clearly using Raiton in both instances.

In regards to Kisames absorption abilities. Yes, he can absorb chakra without Samahada, just not as well.


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## KuroiMugetsu (Apr 1, 2015)

LazyWaka said:


> Non canon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did not know that kisame had the ability to absorbe chakra without the shark skin sword. Hmmm Its not too far fetched since his element is water and the hole absorption thing kinda falls in place but still I cant remember when He absorbed without it ... I thought the sword fused with him or something for that?


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## shade0180 (Apr 1, 2015)

....... there's a scan on page 6.... where he absorb chakra without having the sword... there's also the jutsu pages after that scan that absorbs chakra he used against Gai.


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