# Strongest Ninja Gateless Gai can defeat



## RBL (Aug 24, 2013)

Who is the strongest ninja gateless gai can defeat?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

I'm not too sure. He is restricted to his nunchuks and raw taijutsu, basically, so the strongest person he can beat should be around elite jonin. I really have no idea.​


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 24, 2013)

I think it's Hidan/Asuma. Gateless Gai lacks speed and strength to take down Konan.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2013)

_Hirudora _in base  Hmmm 



Legendary Itachi said:


> I think it's Hidan/Asuma. Gateless Gai lacks speed and strength to take down Konan.



I believe Gai has already proven himself above Hidan's and Asuma's taijutsu level by this point in the manga.

Even though his missing the edge in extreme speeds and augmented strength that he gets granted via the Gates. The fact that he can still use _Hirudora _without entering any stages of gates, means his still a very dangerous ninja. Especially if he has knowledge on the opponent. On top of him having the ability to use more than one _Hirudora_, simply because he used one in a state where he was physically damaged and exhausted near his limit, and could still pull it off without going unconscious.

His speed and strength is already above most ninja's, and knowing he can't use any of his gates, he wouldn't be hesitant in using _Hirudora_ - especially with knowledge on his opponents. There is no point in discussing his Taijutsu skills, that's already been established when he faced off with Obito and forced him to phase. Especially considering his main way of fighting Uchiha's is not looking them in the eyes.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 24, 2013)

Jad said:


> Hirudora in base  Hmmm
> 
> 
> 
> I believe Gai has already proven himself above Hidan's and Asuma's taijutsu level by this point in the manga.



I agree. But I don't see how Gateless Gai defeat ppl above this level, and Asuma with Hien and Fire Jutsu should give him some trouble.

Oh base Hirudora...... I forget that, it will be tricky.


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## trance (Aug 24, 2013)

A Kamui-less Kakashi.


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## RBL (Aug 24, 2013)

Jad said:


> _Hirudora _in base  Hmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...



gai wasn't using hirudora in base, i guess it was just an error just like the ones kishi has had, with kiba,sasuke etc....

because IIRC gai stated that is a seventh-gate technique, DAI NANA KYOMON.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> I agree. But I don't see how Gateless Gai defeat ppl above this level, and Asuma with Hien and Fire Jutsu should give him some trouble.
> 
> Oh base Hirudora...... I forget that, it will be tricky.



Hien is the one thing that will give Gai trouble. Especially if he extends it to 1-meter. But pouring that much chakara into the blade makes it visible, so Gai will know the extend of what he has to avoid. In mid-combat though, Gai may still be able to notice the Hien chakara extending on the blades, simply because he was able to move in-between Obito's Kamui warp of his Nunchuku's. Which shows he has excellent bodily reflexes.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

He'd probably be able to take down Hidan and Sasori for sure.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> gai wasn't using hirudora in base, i guess it was just an error just like the ones kishi has had, with kiba,sasuke etc....
> 
> because IIRC gai stated that is a seventh-gate technique, DAI NANA KYOMON.



That was Yamato who stated it. Doesn't mean Yamato knows it is an exclusive move to use in the Gates. Also if you notice, Gai's base Hirudora grows, then condenses. 7th Gate Hirudora is already grown and compressed. So there is a difference between the moves. Plus, there was no signs he entered the 7th Gate - no aura when he uses the technique, nor a statement of "_7th Gate Open_" anywhere.

Also, if you notice in this scan, there is some form of aura forming around his hands. Here their is no aura.

Note: Fun fact I just saw, in this scan when Gai forms Hirudora. You notice the shape of the Aura around his hands makes the shape of a Tigers head. I didn't notice that before.


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## RBL (Aug 24, 2013)

Jad said:


> That was Yamato who stated it. Doesn't mean Yamato knows it is an exclusive move to use in the Gates. Also if you notice, Gai's base Hirudora grows, then condenses. 7th Gate Hirudora is already grown and compressed. So there is a difference between the moves. Plus, there was no signs he entered the 7th Gate - no aura when he uses the technique, nor a statement of "_7th Gate Open_" anywhere.



this scan

as you can see there, gai is using hirudora.

yet we don't know if that technique was used in base or gated mode.

but some chapters before.

we saw gai using the dai rokukemon, (asa kujaku, in order to save kakashi and himself of one of the bijuu's attacks) in which he makes the reference of enterering to the sixth gate.

and somehow gai is able to turn on and off his gates, whenever he wants, in order to save his stamina,

we can assume that gai was already in the sixth gate, with his turn off mode.

then after hearing naruto's bullshit clich? motivational speech.

he could have just go to his gated-mode.

also this

this scan

this scan doesn't help that much, but gai states that HIRUDORA.

is a very fast-punch, that concentrates air pressure in the direction of his opponent.

with this i guess we can assume that he ought to open some gates at least in order to make that big punch.

or i might be wrong, i hope i'm.

cause the existance of a mini.hirudora looks cool for me.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You only need to look at that scan you posted. When Gai uses _Hirudora _on Madara. Had he been in Gated Mode, you would see an Aura around him.

this scan

Gai was clearly not in Gated mode before or after Naruto's cliche speech.

That doesn't make sense: Gai was already in his 6th Gate mode with turn-off mode? His either in it or not.


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## Van Konzen (Aug 24, 2013)

Iruka..


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2013)

Hidan with full knowledge 

Without full knowledge.. Wave arc Zabuza maybe ?


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## RBL (Aug 24, 2013)

Jad said:


> You only need to look at that scan you posted. When Gai uses _Hirudora _on Madara. Had he been in Gated Mode, you would see an Aura around him.
> 
> this scan
> 
> ...



can't rep u right now.

lol what the hell,  how did u do to look at that.

i guess i was understimating gai's youth, he can throw hirudora at base.

HOOAR YOUTH


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## Sok (Aug 24, 2013)

Base naruto :ignoramus


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## Mercurial (Aug 24, 2013)

base Gai is still faster and phisically stronger than most part of shinobi, even S rank shinobi and even the best among these, is the best all over the ninja world in taijutsu skill, and his best feats are intercept a fight between KCM Naruto and Obito saving the future Orange Hokage from being warped, battling Obito in CQC stopping all of his attacks and stopping his Kamui warping with his taijutsu skill boosted by the use of a pair of nunchaku (this is actually one of the most impressive feats ever, KCM Naruto couldn't avoid Obito's Kamui warping in CQC) ... if he can also use Hiru Tora without Seven Gate Release... fuck, Gai is THAT strong!


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## Bansai (Aug 24, 2013)

Hm... well I'm very tempted to say Hidan now, but I'm not quite sure whether Gai could be able to hit Hidan strong enough to blow off a limb if he may not open a single Gate. Hidan is a quite well experienced close combatant after all. He might just be able to keep up with base Gai's movements. Probably not enough to counter his attacks, but most likely to avoid having Gai blowing off a limb or his head. No one really knows how good Gai can handle a Kunai or any other kind of weapon which slices, so I have to pretend he can't use such weapons. I'm not 100% sure, but I think that he could find an opportunity to blow Hidan's head off with his far superior speed and physical power. However, this requires full knowledge on Hidan's immortality and knowledge about Hidan't technique which allows him to share his pain with his victim.
I believe that Gai's speed is just enough to prevent Hidan from murdering him as soon as he gets to lick his blood. Even without a Gate, I believe that Gai is fast enough to do so. Hidan's weapon will be the main problem Gai has to deal with, but considering that he even managed to seperate a skilled swordsman like Kisame from his weapon, I think it's very likely that Gai manages to do so.

As I said, I'm not absolutely sure, but I think Hidan might just be the strongest opponent base Gai could beat.


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## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2013)

Jad I think it was an art error 
Hirudora can't be used in base . Otherwise we got to assume morning peacock can as well
At which point there is no purpose in using gates. We already know hirudora is a much stronger attack than morning peacock so if he can use base hirudora he can use mp
And like I said what's the point of gates if he can do his gated attacks in base . No draw back from it

Base gai looses to asuma btw he needs at least first hate to perform omote renge which will break asuma neck 
Punches and nunchaku won't kill asuma. Hien however would kill gai


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## Senjuclan (Aug 25, 2013)

Strongest? itachi


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> And like I said what's the point of gates if he can do his gated attacks in base . No draw back from it



Was it ever established that the absolute minimum requirement for any Hachimon taijutsu was Rock/Gai's level of physical fitness _*and*_ the Hachimon?

Rock Lee _*mastered*_ Omote Renge in Base, evidenced by the lack of immediate exhaustion consistent with Gated uses of the technique. Considering the gap between Gai and Lee, via power scaling, Gai being able to use the higher techniques in Base is plausible.

The more relevant concern seems to be not whether he can perform them, but how effective would they be if he did?

Just my 2 cents,
Kenpachi TZ.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Was it ever established that the absolute minimum requirement for any Hachimon taijutsu was Rock/Gai's level of physical fitness _*and*_ the Hachimon?
> 
> Rock Lee _*mastered*_ Omote Renge in Base, evidenced by the lack of immediate exhaustion consistent with Gated uses of the technique. Considering the gap between Gai and Lee, via power scaling, Gai being able to use the higher techniques in Base is plausible.
> 
> ...



Rock lee never mastered omote renge in base .  Read the DB description it requires opening the first gate . If he didn't need gates why open the first gate when he used it against gaara . Lee couldn't even move at full speed for like a chapter because of his opening the first gate . Read the gaara vs lee fight again 

And yes it has been implied and DB stated that gates allows them access to such techniques 

Otherwise like I said why even use gates considering how much of a double edge sword it is 

We saw gai after kisame fight .do you think if he could have done that without gates he won't have ?? U noe how incapacitated he was right


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Zabuza maybe, with just Taijutsu I think many opponents are just outside of his range.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Read the DB description it requires opening the first gate.




*Spoiler*: _Databook 1 - Omote Renge_ 



TAIJUTSU; Omote Renge (Front Lotus)
User: Rock Lee
Offensive; Close range; Rank: B

Main text

After the shedding of much blood, sweat and tears, Lee mastered this  kinjutsu. To use only "to protect someone precious to you", says his  master Guy. For starters, he tosses the enemy high in the air, pushing  them with an upwards kick from below, and tailing them with the Kage  Buyou* movement technique. Then he captures them, wrapping bandages  around them in midair. He holds the enemy tightly in his arms, adds a  spinning motion, and plummets headfirst, straight to the ground. The  reasons why Lee can use this ultra-high level, special taijutsu is none  else than his off-the-charts speed and his thorough understanding of  taijutsu's ABCs.

Captions

-Blossoming on the ground, stands a one-hit-kill flower!!

-A prohibited art that won't allow for inertia!!

Picture comments

-He prepares Omote Renge with a kick. From there, the higher the enemy goes, the more powerful it gets.

-Then, he falls at high speed. He won't even give the slightest of  pauses to the enemy...! (tn: I'm not 100% sure I got this one right) 



Or do I have the wrong one?


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> *Spoiler*: _Databook 1 - Omote Renge_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think maybe I did cuz the one on wiki same to say he opens the fist gate which he did against gaara . cuz he did open the first gate then did he not ? Am  now
1


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## Stermor (Aug 25, 2013)

base itachi or base kakashi are probebly the best he can beat.. both are solid kage lvls even without their trump cards.. 

and he has a 50/49 win rate against kakashi  

itachi in base is now of similar power to kakashi.. and should fair game aswell..


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> I think maybe I did cuz the one on wiki same to say he opens the fist gate which he did against gaara . cuz he did open the first gate then did he not ? Am  now
> 1



The cake wiki is a lie. 

Generally speaking, if it's not directly from the author (i.e. in the manga, or databook if the manga is vague), it doesn't hold weight in argument. 

Only use the wiki as an index to find manga pages. It's what I do: wiki a character, find the information I'm looking for and then check the reference to find what chapter/page it was on.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Guy says that the Initial/Front Lotus is done by opening the first gate.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

What ennoia said 
First gate is needed 
Otherwise lee won't have used it . My question is why harm ur body if u don't need to ?
Very obviously all superior taijutsu from gai needs gates hence why he goes gates


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

What ennoia said 
First gate is needed 
Otherwise lee won't have used it . My question is why harm ur body if u don't need to ?
Very obviously all superior taijutsu from gai needs gates hence why he goes gates


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## SSMG (Aug 25, 2013)

Pre rinnegan obito...maybe an alive minato.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Guy says that the Initial/Front Lotus is done by opening the first gate.



"The Initial Lotus doesn't _really_ require what we're spending _*3 pages*_ to explain to you, just that the 1st Gate beefs it up with 5 times your muscle potential."

Context, Ennoia.



Icegaze said:


> What ennoia said
> First gate is needed
> Otherwise lee won't have used it . My question is why harm ur body if u don't need to ?
> Very obviously all superior taijutsu from gai needs gates hence why he goes gates



Did I ever say they can use them *at the same level* without Gates? Did I say anything about a Base Asa Kujaku/Hirudora being as good as a 6th/7th Gate one?

You make it sound as if I stated the Base versions are good enough to make Gate versions redundant.


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## SSMG (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> What ennoia said
> First gate is needed
> Otherwise lee won't have used it . My question is why harm ur body if u don't need to ?
> Very obviously all superior taijutsu from gai needs gates hence why he goes gates



Well Guy was trying to cover as much area against kisame so he should get as much chakra available for use. 

But I'm pretty sure yamato says that's guys seventh gate attack or something like that so I'm not sure.

 Its one of those cases of what all the dialogue in the story tells us compared to what the art tells us.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> "The Initial Lotus doesn't _really_ require what we're spending _*3 pages*_ to explain to you, just that the 1st Gate beefs it up with 5 times your muscle potential."
> 
> Context, Ennoia.
> 
> ...



Despite Guy outright saying you are wrong. He literally says the jutsu is used by accessing the first Gate. The human body has a limit to the amount of strain that can be put on it and the first gate removes that limit which gives access to the Frontal Lotus. Without that gate you cannot do the jutsu; it does not beef the jutsu up 5 times, it beefs your body up five times to the necessary point to let you do it.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Despite Guy outright saying you are wrong. He literally says the jutsu is used by accessing the first Gate. The human body has a limit to the amount of strain that can be put on it and the first gate removes that limit which gives access to the Frontal Lotus. Without that gate you cannot do the jutsu; it does not beef the jutsu up 5 times, it beefs your body up five times to the necessary point to let you do it.



If you want to argue with me on this, argue with this:



Kenpachi TZ said:


> Rock Lee _*mastered*_ Omote Renge in Base, evidenced by the lack of immediate exhaustion consistent with Gated uses of the technique.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

lee used first gate in both those instances . Notice he couldn't even defend himself against dosu


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> If you want to argue with me on this, argue with this:



It proves nothing, wobbling in circles during training and being in a position to continue fighting are not the same thing; on the same page as his training Guy clearly says it strained his muscles and Neji and Tenten are exhausted from even trying it. 

During his fight with Gaara Guy even said that the continuous kicks needed to get Gaara into the air due to his increased weight only made the jutsu that much worse on Lee so that should even be throw away as evidence.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> lee used first gate in both those instances . Notice he couldn't even defend himself against dosu





Ennoia said:


> It proves nothing, wobbling in circles during training and being in a position to continue fighting are not the same thing; on the same page as his training Guy clearly says it strained his muscles and Neji and Tenten are exhausted from even trying it.
> 
> During his fight with Gaara Guy even said that the continuous kicks needed to get Gaara into the air due to his increased weight only made the jutsu that much worse on Lee so that should even be throw away as evidence.



These are headaches in the making.

Agree to disagree.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Because you're trying to use a scene from training (and not really doing anything but spinning) and comparing it to instances of him fighting. If anything the spinning around is the equivalent of dodging Dosu's attack and what I said about the Gaara fight can be proven with links. We can agree to disagree but you cant possibly give me one logical reason why what I said was wrong.


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## Rosencrantz (Aug 26, 2013)

He can't use gated attacks in base. Very simply an art error or hell he turned off the gates that fast. Aura may not always exist as well as seen with 6 gated Gai.

Not sure about this. He isn't beating Asuma or Hidan. Hidan landed a hit on someone very similar in speed/taijutsu with a better weapon than Gai and drew with someone with similar physical attributes and a sharingan. Personally don't think that Gai has the capabilities to get him in a position to cleanly chop off his head. And he doesn't have a weapon to do it with. With Hidan's durability and stamina the guy can fight forever and when Gai finally begins to slow, Hidan will be able to draw some blood and perform the ritual.

Asuma wins too. Asuma is not quite as skilled or as fast, but he has a better weapon that forces him to dodge, gives him a range advantage in CQC, and can use mid range fuutons and katons. Weapon is also unblockable which means Gai can only dodge making counterattacking more difficult.

Base Gai is strong... not sure though who'd I'd pick.


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## raizen28 (Aug 26, 2013)

superior Rosencrantz superioring


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> He can't use gated attacks in base. Very simply an art error or hell he turned off the gates that fast. Aura may not always exist as well as seen with 6 gated Gai.
> 
> Not sure about this. He isn't beating Asuma or Hidan. Hidan landed a hit on someone very similar in speed/taijutsu with a better weapon than Gai and drew with someone with similar physical attributes and a sharingan. Personally don't think that Gai has the capabilities to get him in a position to cleanly chop off his head. And he doesn't have a weapon to do it with. With Hidan's durability and stamina the guy can fight forever and when Gai finally begins to slow, Hidan will be able to draw some blood and perform the ritual.
> 
> ...



But can't guy clock asuma futon blades by hitting asuma forearm? 
Like when sai intercepted sasuke forearm and sauce was like that's the right way to block a chakra blade move


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## Kanki (Aug 26, 2013)

No way is gate-less Gai beating Hidan. He's not got the ability to take his head off. Sooner or later, Hidan will draw some blood.

Asuma/Zabuza is probably his level. He didn't use the gates vs the 7SOTM, so he could probably take Zabuza. Asuma would be a harder fight, stylistically due to the latter's chakra knives.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 26, 2013)

Kamui-less Kakashi.


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## Kanki (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kamui-less Kakashi.



Not a chance. Kakashi has too many tricks for base-Gai. There's so many ways for Kakashi to win.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> No way is gate-less Gai beating Hidan. He's not got the ability to take his head off. Sooner or later, Hidan will draw some blood.
> 
> Asuma/Zabuza is probably his level. He didn't use the gates vs the 7SOTM, so he could probably take Zabuza. Asuma would be a harder fight, stylistically due to the latter's chakra knives.



 Actually guy carrries a kunai that can cut off hidan head or hit him with a numbchuku and explode half his body off.. guy destroyed a boulder with his numchuku he can destroy someones nonenhanced body.. or he can always aim for the circle on the ground and destroy that instead.

asuma is a different story for base guy.


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## Kanki (Aug 26, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Actually guy carrries a kunai that can cut off hidan head or hit him with a numbchuku and explode half his body off.. guy destroyed a boulder with his numchuku he can destroy someones nonenhanced body.. or he can always aim for the circle on the ground and destroy that instead.
> 
> asuma is a different story for base guy.



Things don't really work that way in shonen though. Body's are usually much tougher than boulder's, hence why characters survive getting thrown into walls/rocks ect.

Gai's offensive style is very in your face. He blocks and powers through his opponent as opposed to out-manoeuvring them. I can see him taking Hidan's scythe from him like he did to Kisame, but eventually he'll get scratched. Normally that means nothing to Gai, but against Hidan it's fatal. Especially if there's limited knowledge.

Hidan is criminally underrated on here. He's Akatsuki 'level' and yet his arsenal is based entirely on taijutsu abilities. I don't think base-Gai destroys Kakashi in a taijutsu fight and yet Hidan was able to keep the former on the defensive throughout their taijutsu exchange, so he won't be out of his depth against base-Gai. He'll be able to land a scratch at some point.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kamui-less Kakashi's Raiton Kagebunshin.


Fixed.

Base Gai is a strong combatant(with high-level speed/strength/stamina and top-tier Taijutsu skills) but his limited arsenal hurts him. I see him beating Asuma most of the times high-diff due to superior skill and speed. And maybe Mifune. He might be able to beat Hidan but he would need full knowledge and it wouldn't be as consistent as vs. Asuma imo. 

People like Zabuza and Darui are on comparable level to Asuma but their abilities are bad matchup for Gai(Hidden Mist, strong Ranged arsenal) - so I don't see him beating them in Base.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

Is there any indication that hidan has special tanking abilities? as far as i can tell he has basically normal human durability. 
Guys style is in your face when he needs to be. he also knows when not to go in with big atacks and when to ise.feints as seen against obito.
he has also shown that he knows how to disarms experts from their weapons as shown against kisame. if he can get kisame sword without a.scratch i don't doubt he can get hidans scythe.

Even if hidan gets his blood. guy can kill hidan while he's setting up the ritual with a munai... or just slam his numchuku into the ground of the ritual destroying his ritual markings.
Edit... does either side get knowledge of the other?


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2013)

Hidan can tank high-end Futon blast at a point-blank range. Even with Gai's impressive strength - it would take massive amount of clear hits to incapacitate Hidan.


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## LostSelf (Aug 26, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Things don't really work that way in shonen though. Body's are usually much tougher than boulder's, hence why characters survive getting thrown into walls/rocks ect.
> 
> Gai's offensive style is very in your face. He blocks and powers through his opponent as opposed to out-manoeuvring them. I can see him taking Hidan's scythe from him like he did to Kisame, but eventually he'll get scratched. Normally that means nothing to Gai, but against Hidan it's fatal. Especially if there's limited knowledge.
> 
> Hidan is criminally underrated on here. He's Akatsuki 'level' and yet his arsenal is based entirely on taijutsu abilities. I don't think base-Gai destroys Kakashi in a taijutsu fight and yet Hidan was able to keep the former on the defensive throughout their taijutsu exchange, so he won't be out of his depth against base-Gai. He'll be able to land a scratch at some point.



Actually, he is much better than Kakashi when he's using weaponry. Obito was having a lot of troubles to keep up with Gai and was force to phase before he could even touch him. A Shinobi with less capabilities as Obito and without Sharingan precog would get pummeled with Soushuga overwhelming said enemy.

In other words, a seasoned Sharingan user with an instantaneous S/T jutsu that was even going to fodderize RM Naruto failed to lay a hand on Gai. Even giving him his back. Gai's taijutsu skills are too good here.

Asuma and Hidan are included there. Also, if Gai disarms Hidan, there's nothing he can do to take the scythe back. He's not having more strenght than Gai, and is not as skilled as he is either.


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2013)

Hidan scythe is attached to him how does gai take it ?
Also what is this kunai people claim guy carries . Scan please . Gai specifically has stated he doesn't fight with sharp edged weapons


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Hidan can tank high-end Futon blast at a point-blank range. Even with Gai's impressive strength - it would take massive amount of clear hits to incapacitate Hidan.



Kakashi tanked that too but he still has to watch out for super strength and kunais to the neck.


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## J★J♥ (Aug 26, 2013)

Raikage or Mei.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Hidan scythe is attached to him how does gai take it ?
> Also what is this kunai people claim guy carries . Scan please . Gai specifically has stated he doesn't fight with sharp edged weapons



He used a kunai as a throwing weapon during his dynamic entry agianst jiraiya.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 26, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Kakashi tanked that too but he still has to watch out for super strength and kunais to the neck.


Kakashi dodged that due to Sharingan prediction. And he still got his clothes destroyed. That move outright kills people with normal durability - considering Kakuzu+Hidan have been using it successfully on previous enemies.


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## Icegaze (Aug 26, 2013)

SSMG said:


> He used a kunai as a throwing weapon during his dynamic entry agianst jiraiya.



Really oh wow!! Never knew . Then it's Hidan who is the strongest person base gai can defeat


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

alex payne said:


> Kakashi dodged that due to Sharingan prediction. And he still got his clothes destroyed. That move outright kills people with normal durability - considering Kakuzu+Hidan have been using it successfully on previous enemies.



Oh okay. i forgot kakashi dodged it at the last second. still guy can cut his head off bc we know that still works on hidan or he can always destroy the ritual.markings to cancel hidans ritual.


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## SSMG (Aug 26, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Really oh wow!! Never knew . Then it's Hidan who is the strongest person base gai can defeat



Yeah but if its IC he proly won't use it unless he's BL or something.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2013)

Lol SSMG If he has one he won't need to be blood lusted by the time a kick to the neck breaks Hidan neck and Hidan survives that gai would know to take his head off . So since gai carries a kunai gai takes his head off sooner than later .


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Aug 27, 2013)

alex payne said:


> That move outright kills people with normal durability - considering Kakuzu+Hidan have been using it successfully on previous enemies.



"Normal durability" being unquantifiable since we have zero information on said previous enemies it was successful on.


----------



## Jad (Aug 27, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, he is much better than Kakashi when he's using weaponry. Obito was having a lot of troubles to keep up with Gai and was force to phase before he could even touch him. A Shinobi with less capabilities as Obito and without Sharingan precog would get pummeled with Soushuga overwhelming said enemy.
> 
> In other words, a seasoned Sharingan user with an instantaneous S/T jutsu that was even going to fodderize RM Naruto failed to lay a hand on Gai. Even giving him his back. Gai's taijutsu skills are too good here.
> 
> Asuma and Hidan are included there. Also, if Gai disarms Hidan, there's nothing he can do to take the scythe back. He's not having more strenght than Gai, and is not as skilled as he is either.



This, with the addition that Gai fights Uchiha's exclusively by not looking at their eyes - so that makes the Obito verse Gai clash even more impressive.

As for Gai stealing Hidan's scythe, so what if he has a rope? Tug-a-war's it off of him. If he so happens to go flying with it, than he he forces the Scythe with even more conviction off of Hidan up close and personal.

This is not underrating Hidan, but he his playing in the field Gai excels in.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

Sok said:


> Base naruto :ignoramus



Base Naruto is Kage level at this point.  
You don't fuck with naruto.  He would toy with base Gai, and then smack him in the face with a Rasengan.
If he wanted to get really nasty he could use  FRS, and then its GG for sure.


----------



## SSMG (Aug 27, 2013)

Like how base Guy did better than Fkm naruto against obito? .... naruto is the one who gets toyed with.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 27, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Like how base Guy did better than Fkm naruto against obito? .... naruto is the one who gets toyed with.



Sure he did...sure he did.

Naruto would pwn him.


----------



## ueharakk (Aug 27, 2013)

Asuma, zabuza, maybe choujuro.

Definitely no one who fights at the kage level.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Aug 28, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> But can't guy clock asuma futon blades by hitting asuma forearm?
> Like when sai intercepted sasuke forearm and sauce was like that's the right way to block a chakra blade move



Well there was no chakra in his blade at that time and he grabbed his arm from behind when it was  not aimed at him. He was not slashing or stabbing at Sai and it is quite a bit harder to grab someone's arm when they are slashing at you and when the length of the blade can keep changing. I acknowledge Gai has a chance. He could win. But I just doubt it without any gates at all.

Edit: And this whole Gai stole someone's weapon so he can steal anyone's weapon fallacy needs to just stop. He stole Kisame's sword. Hidan wields a scythe. They aren't the same weapon. Hidan also has a cord. He might grab it and neglect the cord and a slight flick of his wrist results in him getting cut and dropping the scythe. Then ritual time. Gai in base really stands no chance against Hidan. An argument can still be made that an Unrestricted Gai loses to Hidan.


----------



## raizen28 (Aug 28, 2013)

just too superior for them.


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Well there was no chakra in his blade at that time and he grabbed his arm from behind when it was  not aimed at him. He was not slashing or stabbing at Sai and it is quite a bit harder to grab someone's arm when they are slashing at you and when the length of the blade can keep changing. I acknowledge Gai has a chance. He could win. But I just doubt it without any gates at all.
> 
> Edit: And this whole Gai stole someone's weapon so he can steal anyone's weapon fallacy needs to just stop. He stole Kisame's sword. Hidan wields a scythe. They aren't the same weapon. Hidan also has a cord. He might grab it and neglect the cord and a slight flick of his wrist results in him getting cut and dropping the scythe. Then ritual time. Gai in base really stands no chance against Hidan. An argument can still be made that an Unrestricted Gai loses to Hidan.



Actually gai wields a kunai so I hear . If that's true gai beats Hidan everyday of the week


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Actually gai wields a kunai so I hear . If that's true gai beats Hidan everyday of the week



Without knowledge, even an unrestricted Gai likely dies.  Hidan can use his immortality to be guaranteed a chance to get blood.  Gai attacks without knowing his immortality, 1 scratch, and dead.

Hidan gets so underestimated it is laughable.  
You have to have knowledge to even fight this guy, otherwise you are likely fucked 9 times out of 10.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Sure he did...sure he did.
> 
> Naruto would pwn him.



Im thinking its more like Guy destroys him.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Im thinking its more like Guy destroys him.


First off Kabuto is near Kakashi's level.
Second off, that is very very old, and the panels just showed some clones being destroyed.  Big whoop!
Kabuto would have been beaten if the fight continued any damn way.

Current Naruto in base would pwn Gai in base.
Sorry, facts are facts.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> First off Kabuto is near Kakashi's level.
> Second off, that is very very old, and the panels just showed some clones being destroyed.  Big whoop!
> Kabuto would have been beaten if the fight continued any damn way.
> 
> ...



Current Naruto has no feats to say he can beat Guy just using base and clones have the same ability as the main body. Despite the page being old Naruto has not shown a significant increase in taijutsu ability, he's really only been training with his power ups. Base Naruto got one shot by Kabuto whom stated that he sucked at taijutsu; even if we give leeway for improvement this is a far cry from Guy.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Current Naruto has no feats to say he can beat Guy just using base and clones have the same ability as the main body. Despite the page being old Naruto has not shown a significant increase in taijutsu ability, he's really only been training with his power ups. Base Naruto got one shot by Kabuto whom stated that he sucked at taijutsu; even if we give leeway for improvement this is a far cry from Guy.



He wasn't beaten in that skirmish...  WTF are talking about.
Hell, he was even half beaten by the Kyuubi transformation, before the fight even started.

I mean, your evidence is so bad it is quite laughable. 


A far better example would be when he went toe to toe with Pain.
That was easy a Kage level opponent at the time, and he has obviously improved since then.

Naruto in base is Kage level.
Gai in base is elite jounin level.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> He wasn't beaten in that skirmish...  WTF are talking about.
> Hell, he was even half beaten by the Kyuubi transformation, before the fight even started.
> 
> I mean, your evidence is so bad it is quite laughable.


Except he later fought Orochimaru and still had the stamina to use multi shadow clone jutsu to search the entire hideout 



> A far better example would be when he went toe to toe with Pain.
> That was easy a Kage level opponent at the time, and he has obviously improved since then.


Except he didnt go toe to toe with pain, he only defended himself and was being pushed back. He would have also died if he had not re-entered SM while at the same time Deva has no taijutsu feats.



> Naruto in base is Kage level.
> Gai in base is elite jounin level.


Right, Naruto is better at taijutsu than Guy


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Except he later fought Orochimaru and still had the stamina to use multi shadow clone jutsu to search the entire hideout
> 
> 
> Except he didnt go toe to toe with pain, he only defended himself and was being pushed back. He would have also died if he had not re-entered SM while at the same time Deva has no taijutsu feats.
> ...


Yah, searched the whole hideout, and squared up against Orochimaru in that state.  Naruto is a bad mother trucker.  Are you trying to prove my point?

Deva is Nagato.  Deva by himself doesn't need taijutsu feats.
Not getting blitzed is going toe to toe.  He even had time to toss Pa the scroll.  There was no point in him going on the offensive at the time!  That would have been dumb.  

He wasn't about to die.  He paused to release the clone jutsu technique in order to enter sage mode again.  That is what created the opening.  He knew that opening was going to be created, and he knew he could counter once he entered sage mode, so again you are proving my point.  He had the composure to willingly give his opponent a free opening.  Naruto was going toe to toe with Deva Pain in base mode.

Also, you are forgetting the 2nd time when he defeated deva pain.



Taijutsu is basic shit in the series.  Everyone that uses it is good at it.
Taijutsu is Naruto's cornerstone as well.  

Though, if you want to say his base taijutsu isn't as good as Gai's, then that is fine, because he also has extremely powerful ninjutsu abilities.  Those are what win him the fight against Gai, not taijutsu.  If this was just a Taijutsu fight, then it would be more or less a wash imo with maybe Gai having a slight edge.


Base Gai has Kage level Taijutsu, but his other skills are essentially nil.  Thus, that demotes him to elite jounin in base.
Base Naruto is now immune to genjutsu, and has kage level ninjutsu and taijutsu.  This puts him at Kage level.

Easy win for naruto.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Yah, searched the whole hideout, and squared up against Orochimaru in that state.  Naruto is a bad mother trucker.  Are you trying to prove my point?
> 
> Deva is Nagato.  Deva by himself doesn't need taijutsu feats.
> Not getting blitzed is going toe to toe.  He even had time to toss Pa the scroll.  There was no point in him going on the offensive at the time!  That would have been dumb.  Also, you are forgetting the 2nd time when he defeated deva pain.
> ...



You said Naruto was weakened but he was not weakened enough to later fight Orochimaru and use shadow clones. Kabuto legit one shot Naruto and Yamato restrained Naruto with ease.

Going toe to toe with someone implies that you are fighting on equal ground, Naruto focused on defending himself from Deva and still almost died. When he fought Deva in base the second time Deva fell over, he was in extremely bad shape.

Even with clones or even Rasengan Naruto's taijutsu is so far below Guy's that it will be a repeat of what happened when he fought Kimimaro. There are a number of people Naruto can beat in base but Guy is not one of them.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You said Naruto was weakened but he was not weakened enough to later fight Orochimaru and use shadow clones. Kabuto legit one shot Naruto and Yamato restrained Naruto with ease.
> 
> Going toe to toe with someone implies that you are fighting on equal ground, Naruto focused on defending himself from Deva and still almost died. When he fought Deva in base the second time Deva fell over, he was in extremely bad shape.
> 
> Even with clones or even Rasengan Naruto's taijutsu is so far below Guy's that it will be a repeat of what happened when he fought Kimimaro. There are a number of people Naruto can beat in base but Guy is not one of them.



It wasn't much of a fight, and Orochimaru had no intention of winning.  Which he could have done easily.

Kabuto didn't one shot him!  He never even laid a hand on him.... THOSE WERE CLONES!
Yamato restrained who?  Kabuto?  Sai turned on him, and held him in place.  So that isn't exactly a feat...

It would have been stupid to go offensive.  Yet, he obviously could have, because he had time to throw a scroll, and the composure to create an opening for his opponent.  He did not almost die.  He knowingly created that opening to release the clone to re-enter sage mode.

I feel like you can't read at this point.


Naruto's base taijutsu is on par to Gai's.
Just like Kakashi's is on par with Gai's in base.
Sorry, but that is a fact kiddo.

That is why Gai would have to go gates to stand any hope in hell against either of them.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> It wasn't much of a fight, and Orochimaru had no intention of winning.  Which he could have done easily.


That does not change anything, Naruto would not hold back on Orochimaru. Even after fighting Orochimaru he still had stamina left over to use multi shadow clone so he was not in bad shape when Kabuto kicked him.



> Kabuto didn't one shot him!  He never even laid a hand on him.... THOSE WERE CLONES!





Ennoia said:


> clones have the same ability as the main body.





> Yamato restrained who?  Kabuto?  Sai turned on him, and held him in place.  So that isn't exactly a feat...


Restrained Naruto. and fought two of his clones at the same time.



> It would have been stupid to go offensive.  Yet, he obviously could have, because he had time to throw a scroll, and the composure to create an opening for his opponent.  He did not almost die.  He knowingly created that opening to release the clone to re-enter sage mode.


What? What opening? He was literally about to be stabbed, entered SM, and broke the rod. Nothing about that situation says he could have gone on the offensive and in fact it would not have been stupid to do so because there was no reason not to. If he could have overpowered Deva he would have; nothing indicates he could have.



> I feel like you can't read at this point.


You're just repeating yourself without providing any kind of proof.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> That does not change anything, Naruto would not hold back on Orochimaru. Even after fighting Orochimaru he still had stamina left over to use multi shadow clone so he was not in bad shape when Kabuto kicked him.


What exactly does this prove to you? 
He was at his limit because of the kyuubi. 
He wasn't at 100%.  So to say he did other stuff, while not at 100% proves diddly shit, except he is tough.




Ennoia said:


> Restrained Naruto. and fought two of his clones at the same time.


Sai Restrained Naruto.
Naruto wasn't exactly trying either.  Heck, even Yamato told him to get serious.




Ennoia said:


> What? What opening? He was literally about to be stabbed, entered SM, and broke the rod. Nothing about that situation says he could have gone on the offensive and in fact it would not have been stupid to do so because there was no reason not to. If he could have overpowered Deva he would have; nothing indicates he could have.


What Opening? 
The opening that resulted in Deva Pain trying to stab him.  Naruto knowingly created that opening to enter sage mode.

WTF are you talking about?  Trying to go on the offensive in base would have been dumb, even if he had an advantage.  Sage mode, which was about to be available in 2 seconds, was much safer and stronger.  Why take the chance and go on the offensive?



Ennoia said:


> You're just repeating yourself without providing any kind of proof.


No!  You clearly don't know anything about the series, and your reading comprehension is shit.  
I think those two things might be correlated, because you have badly misinterpreted every single manga panel you linked.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> What exactly does this prove to you?
> He was at his limit because of the kyuubi.
> He wasn't at 100%.  So to say he did other stuff, while not at 100% proves diddly shit, except he is tough.


He was at his limit but was capable of using multi shadow clone and fighting Orochimaru? 
Kyuubi poison affected him in small spurts, he was not shown to be at any limit. You're reaching.



> Sai Restrained Naruto.
> Naruto wasn't exactly trying either.


Clearly you can see the wood grab Naruto's clone and there is no evidence that Naruto was not trying when Yamato said put your all into it and Naruto used Rasengan. Yamato legit fought off Naruto and his clone then restrained the clone and did all of this with ease. What do you think Guy would do. 



> Do you even know what an opening is?  The opening that resulted in Deva Pain trying to stab him.  Naruto caused that opening.


Naruto was clearly almost stabbed and you're saying he did this on purpose to create an opening that dosent exist and was not necessary? You're reaching. Naruto in SM is far superior to Deva in CQC that an opening was not necessary nor was one shown 



> No!  You clearly don't know anything about the series, and your reading comprehension is shit.
> I think those two things might be correlated, because you have badly misinterpreted every single manga panel you linked.


And yet you have proven nothing so quite frankly it's you thats misinterpreting these panels.


----------



## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

You clearly don't know anything about the series, and your reading comprehension is shit.
I think those two things might be correlated, because you have badly misinterpreted every single manga panel you linked.


----------



## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> You clearly don't know anything about the series, and your reading comprehension is shit.
> I think those two things might be correlated, because you have badly misinterpreted every single manga panel you linked.



Like Naruto not being restrained by Yamato when the wood clearly holds him in place? Like Kabuto not being able to one shot Naruto when he did it to his clone with the exact same level of taijutsu ability as the original? Like Naruto not being serious but using Rasengan? Like Naruto being at his limit but pulling off feats that no one at their limit would be capable of doing? No, just no.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

In the instances with Yamato and Kabuto they attacked clones.


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## Ennoia (Aug 28, 2013)

Clones have the same level of ability as the original


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

No... just no.
Clones aren't the same as the original. If that were true, naruto would have died a 100 times over.

1st His chakra is split amongst the clones.
2nd He uses them as diversions!   
3rd Getting caught to catch the enemy off guard is one of their primary functions.
4th He has gotten way stronger since the start of Shippuden.  Particularly with the clones.
5th Where does it even say they have the same level of fighting potential as the original? 

Your understanding of the series is absolute shit.
Your reading comprehension is shit.
You have been misinterpreting every single manga panel you link.


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Without knowledge, even an unrestricted Gai likely dies.  Hidan can use his immortality to be guaranteed a chance to get blood.  Gai attacks without knowing his immortality, 1 scratch, and dead.
> 
> Hidan gets so underestimated it is laughable.
> You have to have knowledge to even fight this guy, otherwise you are likely fucked 9 times out of 10.



 but gai is so much better in CQC . again once gai uses omote renge which normally would kill a regular ninja or adamite spin kick to the neck an Hidan doesn't die gai would know to switch to kunai and cut his head off. This is if we are talking unrestricted gai 
Restricted same thing but different techniques would be used . Konoha whirlwind to the neck seein how strong gai is if Hidan doesn't die from his broken neck he would know to use a kunai to cut Hidan head clean off.  Gai CQC base skills are clearly above hidan


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

Kakashi wasn't so much better that he blitzed Hidan.

He isn't a rag doll, and all he has to do is to trick you into doing a seemingly favorable exchange, and then he has won.  
Just like what happened with Asuma.

Give Gai knowledge though, and he will throw open some gates and end it before he ever gets cut.


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## SSMG (Aug 28, 2013)

Base guy didn't get touhed in a 1v1 against obito he lols at hidan.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 28, 2013)

SSMG said:


> Base guy didn't get touhed in a 1v1 against obito he lols at hidan.



Obito was playing with him like a chew toy.


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## SSMG (Aug 28, 2013)

Getting outclassed and giving your opponent your back is toying with them now?


----------



## P3IN (Aug 28, 2013)

Itachi without sharingan  

Base naruto 

Hidan probably

Zestu


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

P3IN said:


> Itachi without sharingan
> 
> Base naruto
> 
> ...



He might beat zetsu, but that isn't even an accomplishment. 
No one else in the list though.


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## Jad (Aug 29, 2013)

I guess I will give my 2 cents again. I rather point my debate towards Hidan I guess because that seems to be the main focus of talk. I'm sure I will get to the other threads (the ones I want to post in) sooner or later - pretty busy.
-------------------------------
-------------------------------​
*Knowledge:* None for both
*State of Mind:* IC
*Distance:* 15 meteres
*Restrictions:* Hirudora (want to see my argument - check it out in the past pages)

*Analysis: Asuma*

So no knowledge hurts both Hidan and Gai. Just as Gai doesn't know a scratch is detrimental to his defeat, so is Hidan's clash with Gai for a number of reasons. It's obviously going to come down to a close quarters clash, which is essentially Gai's Sōshūga against Hidan's Scythe. Now out of the two, I believe Gai is the better skilled in the clash, simply because he is boasted as being the best Taijutsu practitioner as referenced in the , not to mention his feats which I will get to shortly. If we first look at Asuma's fight against Hidan, what people fail to realize was it being actually a quick match, very quick. They actually physically came into close proximity of each other in their scuffle once. Asuma actually had no problem reacting to Hidan's attacks, all four of them [1][2][3][4]. Obviously the last one is where he got the scratch. Although I fail to see how that can be aligned with Gai getting scratched without looking at his feats first. You also have to take into consideration that Hidan was given the chance to draw his diagram on the ground because Kakuzu was around [5], which forced Asuma to call everyone back in fear of what the other one might do [6][7].

Gai isn't someone who lets people do what they want if he has the ability in him to stop the opponent anyway, which he does against Hidan; considering he doesn't have anything else but a Scythe to defend himself with. An example of this is was when Gai did not let Kisame even twitch his finger [7]. My point isn't to say he is going to straight away disable the opponents assaults at start, for example ninjutsu, because obviously he didn't stop Kisame straight away the second time they met and he used his technique to flood the area. But during his fight with Hidan I'm sure he will understand the frame of the fight and start to react to anything he can stop, such as the drawing of the ritual. Using Asuma as an example, we can see that with the very few clashes that were shown, he had no problem reacting to Hidans attacks. So someone as skilled as Gai who is faster, more perceptive and flexible, and known as the best Taijutsu practitioner in Konoha, should have a much better time in their fight. But I want to prove this even more.

*Analysis: Kakashi and Shikamaru*

This section will be relatively short, here I introduce the very small clahses Hidan had with Kakashi and Shikamaru. With Kakashi, not only did he have an inferior weapon which was one Kunai against a Scythe, but was also unable to get a scratch on him. Let's be fair though, Kakashi didn't exactly get a scratch on Hidan as well; it was an even exchange between the two within that small momentary clash [8]. The kicker here though was Kakashi stating he was pushing himself straight after that clash [9]. He states quite clearly that using the Sharingan and four Raikiri's was pushing it. Again, place a more skilled taijutsu practitioner that is Gai, with two superior weapons (_Sōshūga_), superior strength, and superior speed to a tired/warn Kakashi (even healthy version of him OFT: though war arc Kakashi seemed to come across as having the same speed - don't quote me), and it starts to show that Gai will obviously be the better man in the fight. Now the point about strength is very important in this fight that I think people neglect which I will get back to shortly. As for the Shikamaru fight, well even though it was without a Scythe, Shikamaru skillfully, someone who has far lower taijutsu skill than Gai, not only dodged Hidan's slash but was able to even pour blood on his weapon without Hidan knowing [10]. Again this is to show that Gai can react to Hidan's attacks no problem through Asuma's, Kakashi's and now Shikamaru's examples.

*Strength: Why important?*

Simple really. Gai is boulder shattering level in strength, both the databook and manga evidence illustrates this [11]. So a clash between Hidan's Scythe and Gai's _Sōshūga_ would be like bringing a wiffle bat to a steel baseball fight. Hidan's Scythe will simply bounce off of Gai's _Sōshūga_ without even effecting it's trajectory or aim. Hidan's strength is on par with Kakashi's and Asuma's considering their clashes so that's my reasoning. And when I mean 'bounce', the Scythe  will definitely be knocked off balance, as well as Hidan himself, which will allow Gai to follow through with his attack or 'combo'. Now here is the problematic thing when it comes to Hidan's durability. What Hidan took when he and Kakuzu tried to trick Kakashi was _Fuuton: Atsugai_. I am not sure how I feel about this technique, because while it's called a high level wind technique and is said presumably by Kakauzu to have killed before - it didn't impress me in terms of land-scale damage. The ground it was used on relatively looks intact, no cracks from what I can see. I say Gai can force a few broken bones on Hidan, which may disable his movements because he actually doesn't heal. But I go on with my next point, which if you believe Gai's base strength won't suffice, should be covered in the next paragraph. What I mean is that if Gai knows his strength isn't enough to put down Hidan after several attempts, than other solutions are to be had (would be Gates but he doesn't have access here).

*Kunai: A possibility?*

Of course it is, yes, Gai has not actively used it in combat, but a ninja should be capable of wielding one in dire situations. Does Gai carry one? Yes, he uses it when he does his Dynamic entry as well as here [12]. Steel weapons do work against Hidan, steel wires were able to cut him into pieces [13], and Shikamaru's strength was able to inflict a deep laceration on Hidan's neck [14]. Gai should be able to steal Hidan's Scythe with force also, superior strength allows him to do so, even more impressive he was able to take one off a Sevenswords Men - Kisame [15]. Obviously this is not to say Gai will do it in the exact same away, but if you ever wanted some form of evidence that Gai has done it before, there you go. It's better than no evidence. In the arguement that Gai won't use a Kunai against someone, I think that is false, simply because we have seen Gai use a foreign weapon against an enemy [16]. So adding the evidence that Gai should be more (again more) than capable of reacting to Hidan, than stealing a weapon from him should be well within his realm to then use against Hidan's immortality.

*Gai's Taijutsu*

Very brief section - read 595. Avoiding Obito while not getting touched, forcing him into Kamui, and knowing Gai fights Uchiha's without looking into their eyes, this is simply one of the best showings of Taijutsu against an opponent in the manga. Also Gai has shown great reflexes: moving in between a Kamui warp phase- , as well as great insight, from noticing Kisame's finger twitch [17], to noticing Naruto was in trouble in mid-combat all the way in the distance (so tiny and small; just compare Naruto to Son Goku's size, and the distance of Son Goku to Gai). Just to show he has very good observational skills.

Now of course I will get people saying "Why would Gai not get scratched, he has no knowledge on Hidan's abilities", well first of all Gai has only on three occasions got wounds inflicted on him in the manga. One from Kisame who put him into unfavorable conditions which was off paneled (but a hit is a hit), *Madara* and the *Juubi*. Why would Gai, who has never taken the risk of being inflicted an injury, now do so with Hidan? Gai is going to avoid the weapon not because he magically knows Hidan's technique as most of you will probably assume, but because it's simply how he fights, avoiding injury.

*Edit:* You might see some changes if you JUST saw this post, grammatical errors.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 29, 2013)

Jad said:


> I guess I will give my 2 cents again. I rather point my debate towards Hidan I guess because that seems to be the main focus of talk. I'm sure I will get to the other threads (the ones I want to post in) sooner or later - pretty busy.
> -------------------------------
> -------------------------------​
> *Knowledge:* None for both
> ...



This pretty much closed Hidan vs Gai. I'm really surprised how Gai's taijutsu skills are diminished just because "Hidan is an Akatsuki member". Their feats doesn't compare. Shikamaru cut him with ease, Asuma and Kakashi reacted fine to him. Gai easily dealt with much more reflexive opponents before.

Seriously, it's way MUCH easier landing a hand on someone if you have a jutsu that makes you intangible and precognition, than drawing blood of that person without said jutsu AND without precognition. If Obito couldn't do it, Hidan has no chance in hell, unless Gai gets overconfident. Gai heavily trumps Hidan in CqC. 

And i wouldn't like to put my views over anybody else here, but believing that Hidan will do something that Obito couldn't with much more advantages is hating him,  ignoring his feats or being completely blind.


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## SSMG (Aug 29, 2013)

Well put jad.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> This pretty much closed Hidan vs Gai. I'm really surprised how Gai's taijutsu skills are diminished just because "Hidan is an Akatsuki member". Their feats doesn't compare. Shikamaru cut him with ease, Asuma and Kakashi reacted fine to him. Gai easily dealt with much more reflexive opponents before.
> 
> Seriously, it's way MUCH easier landing a hand on someone if you have a jutsu that makes you intangible and precognition, than drawing blood of that person without said jutsu AND without precognition. If Obito couldn't do it, Hidan has no chance in hell, unless Gai gets overconfident. Gai heavily trumps Hidan in CqC.
> 
> And i wouldn't like to put my views over anybody else here, but believing that Hidan will do something that Obito couldn't with much more advantages is hating him,  ignoring his feats or being completely blind.



You are badly confused.  It doesn't even matter if Gai is better at CQC, because you are ignoring his special ability, which Gai has no knowledge of.


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## LostSelf (Aug 29, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> You are badly confused.  It doesn't even matter if Gai is better at CQC, because you are ignoring his special ability, which Gai has no knowledge of.



How do you know he has no knowledge? And how Hidan will touch him when Obito couldn't?


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## egressmadara (Aug 29, 2013)

Doujutsu-less Tobi
Kakashi without MS, summonings, or gates.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> How do you know he has no knowledge? And how Hidan will touch him when Obito couldn't?



Well if you want to give him knowledge that is fine, but you are hardcore gimping his HIdan by doing that.  Might as well just cut off his arms, and have then fight in a deep hole.

Because Guy doesn't know his ability is immortality.  Also, with his attack style it will be difficult for him to even figure it out.  

All Hidan has to do is to trick him into an exchange of blows, any exchange, and Hidan wins.


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## LostSelf (Aug 29, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Well if you want to give him knowledge that is fine, but you are hardcore gimping his HIdan by doing that.  Might as well just cut off his arms, and have then fight in a deep hole.
> 
> Because Guy doesn't know his ability is immortality.  Also, with his attack style it will be difficult for him to even figure it out.
> 
> All Hidan has to do is to trick him into an exchange of blows, any exchange, and Hidan wins.



He never saw Pain, and he knew all of Pain's abilities. The notion of them not spreading knowledge on the Akatsuki members, especially one such as deadly as Hidan's, is not very convincing to me.

If they engage in CqC combat, Hidan is screwed. Nothing of tricking or slashing him. Obito couldn't lay a finger on him with Sharingan  precognition, who gives the Uchiha a massive advantage and phasing all of Gai's hits.

Hidan doesn't have those luxurys. Engaging Gai in CqC would be a horrible idea. Unless, of course, we believe that Hidan is deadlier and harder to fight than a guy with Sharingan, seasoned, smarter, with genjutsu (Gai probably didn't even look at his eyes) and a jutsu that let's him absorb all hits.

But he's not. So he's not doing what Obito couldn't.


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## Mithos (Aug 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> How do you know he has no knowledge? And how Hidan will touch him when Obito couldn't?



There is no reason Gai would have knowledge of Hidan's abilities. 

But besides that, I want to address the latter part of your post. 

Gai did not avoid being touched by Obito in a drawn-out battle one on one. He managed to out-maneuver him in a very brief CQC "skirmish." So first off, that doesn't translate to never being touched in a very long fight against Hidan. This is like saying that I dodged a couple round-house kicks from one martial artist, so therefore another won't ever be able to touch me in a fight. Doesn't really work like that. 

There is also the assumption that Obito is more skilled in CQC than Hidan. I'm not sure that's true. Obito is certainly on a completely different level, but that is mostly because of his Kamui ability. In terms of actual martial art skill or prowess, I'm not sure Obito is all that great. Have we ever seen anything to assume he is? Besides him being so powerful overall? While Obito's skill is largely unknown, we know Hidan is very skilled and acrobatic. I don't think it's out of the question for Gai to get scratched at some point, especially since he will struggle to put Hidan down and the longer the fight lasts, the more likely he is to be hurt.


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## SSMG (Aug 29, 2013)

But in a manga it does work like that. Even in real life too... if i can go punch for punch with bruce lee then some yellow belt wouldn't be a problem for.me.to outmanuver.


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## LostSelf (Aug 29, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> There is no reason Gai would have knowledge of Hidan's abilities.



They spread knowledge about Pain's abilities. Nothing suggests that Shikamaru didn't give Tsunade intel about it, and the other Jounins got to know. It's a common thing, especially if Hidan's ability was too dangerous, to the point of killing an elite Jounin. And of course, Gai could've been informed when he was told that Asuma died.

However, the question was because the OP never specified knowledge.



> But besides that, I want to address the latter part of your post.
> 
> ]Gai did not avoid being touched by Obito in a drawn-out battle one on one. He managed to out-maneuver him in a very brief CQC "skirmish." So first off, that doesn't translate to never being touched in a very long fight against Hidan. This is like saying that I dodged a couple round-house kicks from one martial artist, so therefore another won't ever be able to touch me in a fight. Doesn't really work like that.



Yeah, the point is, that Hidan is not Obito. Let's assume Hidan and Gai get into that "brief" CqC skirmish. Hidan doesn't have Kamui. And Kamui was the only thing that prevented Obito from having his head and face smashed by by Gai. His Soushuga are not linear hits that you dodge watching porn. They come from all angles almost at the same time that Gai is defending.

Hidan cannot match that. He gets hit trying to hit Gai, and he will continue to be hit all over. Also, what  let's us think that Gai couldn't keep up dodging and stalemating Obito longer?



> There is also the assumption that Obito is more skilled in CQC than Hidan. I'm not sure that's true. Obito is certainly on a completely different level, but that is mostly because of his Kamui ability. In terms of actual martial art skill or prowess, I'm not sure Obito is all that great. Have we ever seen anything to assume he is? Besides him being so powerful overall? While Obito's skill is largely unknown, we know Hidan is very skilled and acrobatic. I don't think it's out of the question for Gai to get scratched at some point, especially since he will struggle to put Hidan down and the longer the fight lasts, the more likely he is to be hurt.



It's not being skilled in CqC. It's being dangerous in CqC. Obito phases all your attacks while he attacks. Minato needed Hiraishin to touch him. The guy was even going to fodderize RM Naruto if not for Gai. And his Kamui is so haxxed that he thought he could warp Minato before he teleported. Talking about fast.

But even without those things, he failed to put a scratch on someone that even gave him his back. All of those abilities listed are much harder to counter than countering Hidan. Who cannot block Gai's hits coming from all angles, has less skills as Gai, is slower, probably less reflexive, less strenght and, of course, he cannot afford to be disarmed.

Yeah, his scythe has a rope. But good luck beating Gai in a tug-o-war if you're not Tsunade, some Raikage, or SM Naruto.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> He never saw Pain, and he knew all of Pain's abilities. The notion of them not spreading knowledge on the Akatsuki members, especially one such as deadly as Hidan's, is not very convincing to me.
> 
> If they engage in CqC combat, Hidan is screwed. Nothing of tricking or slashing him. Obito couldn't lay a finger on him with Sharingan  precognition, who gives the Uchiha a massive advantage and phasing all of Gai's hits.
> 
> ...



It has nothing to do with spreading knowledge. 
It is about a fair fight.  A huge part of what makes Hidan so strong is not knowing his abilities.
Giving Gai knowledge is a *HUGE* handicap.  If we are going to slap handicaps on everyone Gai fights, then he could beat anyone.



Matto-sama said:


> There is no reason Gai would have knowledge of Hidan's abilities.
> 
> But besides that, I want to address the latter part of your post.
> 
> ...



Yup, this.


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## LostSelf (Aug 29, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> It has nothing to do with spreading knowledge.
> It is about a fair fight.  A huge part of what makes Hidan so strong is not knowing his abilities.
> Giving Gai knowledge is a *HUGE* handicap.  If we are going to slap handicaps on everyone Gai fights, then he could be anyone.



But OP never specified that. If it's manga knowledge, Gai arguably should know about it. It was a jutsu that killed one of his friends, after all.

Gai is also handicapped here because he's not allowed to use gates. But Gai always avoid being touched in fight. And it looks like he tries to disarm his opponents in fights. Even having no knowledge about it, he's not defenseless. And Hidan isn't winning 10 out of 10 with the no knowledge factor.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> But OP never specified that. If it's manga knowledge, Gai arguably should know about it. It was a jutsu that killed one of his friends, after all.
> 
> Gai is also handicapped here because he's not allowed to use gates. But Gai always avoid being touched in fight. And it looks like he tries to disarm his opponents in fights. Even having no knowledge about it, he's not defenseless. And Hidan isn't winning 10 out of 10 with the no knowledge factor.



Fair fights seems like a given assumption.  It doesn't mean shit if you can win an unfair fight.

We seen Gai disarm Kisame's weak clone. Does that even count as his real sword?
This is a completely different type of weapon, so we can't say this happens again.


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## SSMG (Aug 29, 2013)

All this talk about fair fights is bs. we know how the leaf operates with abilities of fallen foes which is they share the knowlegde as seen with pain and tobi. so why assume hidan didn't get this done too? both pain and tobis abilities were shared to guy.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

SSMG said:


> All this talk about fair fights is bs. we know how the leaf operates with abilities of fallen foes which is they share the knowlegde as seen with pain and tobi. so why assume hidan didn't get this done too? both pain and tobis abilities were shared to guy.



By this logic, we can't use anyone who is dead or incapacitated, so its pointless to discuss this any further.

These are hypothetical situations.
Derp.


If you want to create a hypothetical situation where the opponents are handicapped, then that is fine.  
Just be sure to list that handicap when you say Gai wins.  Otherwise you are just being dishonest.


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## SSMG (Aug 29, 2013)

What? no by that logic* guy *would know the abilities of foes who have fallen by the hands of leaf nin..... since only guy was shown to have knowlegde on tobi and nagato without fighting them.


reading comprehension will do you wonders.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 29, 2013)

SSMG said:


> What? no by that logic* guy *would know the abilities of foes who have fallen by the hands of leaf nin..... since only guy was shown to have knowlegde on tobi and nagato without fighting them.
> 
> 
> reading comprehension will do you wonders.



The guy who doesn't understand adjectives is telling me about reading comprehension lol.

Hypothetical battles don't include history lessons from the leaf.
If you think Guy can only defeat a severely handicapped Hidan, then that is fine.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 29, 2013)

He could probably beat a slug-less Tsunade without healing techs.


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## SSMG (Aug 29, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> The guy who doesn't understand adjectives is telling me about reading comprehension lol.
> 
> Hypothetical battles don't include history lessons from the leaf.
> If you think Guy can only defeat a severely handicapped Hidan, then that is fine.



If you're going to use. ad hominem make sure it actually applies.  
But hypothetical battles included current guy unless otherwise.noted.. and since it wasn't noted that means this topic is current guy. and based on what we know current guy would have info on hidan.


the fact is you are handicapping guy.. not hidan.


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## LostSelf (Aug 30, 2013)

johnsuwey said:


> Fair fights seems like a given assumption.  It doesn't mean shit if you can win an unfair fight.
> 
> We seen Gai disarm Kisame's weak clone. Does that even count as his real sword?
> This is a completely different type of weapon, so we can't say this happens again.



Of course it means. It's not Gai's fault _if_ Shikamaru spreaded knowledge about his techniques just like everyone knew how to counter Pain's. And they went prepared for that even knowing that Pain was dead and if i recall, they didn't know that Obito had Rinnegan.

Kisame's weak clone in chakra capacity, nothing more. His physical performance was the same as when he fought Killer Bee and Gai for the second time. And Kisame has much better feats at CqC combat than Hidan. And why it cannot happen again? Why cannot Gai block Hidan's weapon with his and take it off his hands? He did it against a stronger opponent.


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## johnsuwey (Aug 30, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Of course it means. It's not Gai's fault _if_ Shikamaru spreaded knowledge about his techniques just like everyone knew how to counter Pain's. And they went prepared for that even knowing that Pain was dead and if i recall, they didn't know that Obito had Rinnegan.
> 
> Kisame's weak clone in chakra capacity, nothing more. His physical performance was the same as when he fought Killer Bee and Gai for the second time. And Kisame has much better feats at CqC combat than Hidan. And why it cannot happen again? Why cannot Gai block Hidan's weapon with his and take it off his hands? He did it against a stronger opponent.



If you want to make the handicap that is fine, but just say it is a handicap.  That is why Shikamaru was able to beat him obviously.

Guy's strongest opponent is a handicapped Hidan.



No, Chakra and speed and strength are linked.  This should be obvious to anyone who follows the series.  Why do you think Naruto gets huge increases in his speed and strength in KCM?  It sure as hell isn't because his muscles got bigger.


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