# Strongest Kage?



## Sansa (Jun 10, 2015)

Who is the strongest Kage out of Onoki, Mei, Tsunade, Ay, and Gaara?

And how would you rank them in terms of power?


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 10, 2015)

Oonoki **


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## thechickensage (Jun 10, 2015)

Strength?
Onoki (with his boulder jutsu), Tsunade, Ay,  Mei, Gaara

Win in a fight?
Tsunade, Ay, Gaara, Onoki, Mei


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## RBL (Jun 10, 2015)

Gaara is better than the failkages.

but overall the strongest kage, is the Gaikage


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## Sansa (Jun 10, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Strength?
> Onoki (with his boulder jutsu), Tsunade, Ay,  Mei, Gaara
> 
> Win in a fight?
> Tsunade, Ay, Gaara, Onoki, Mei



I'm interested in why you say Mei has the least chance to win a fight


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## Malicious Friday (Jun 10, 2015)

Tsunade, Gaara, Onoki, Raikage, Mei


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 10, 2015)

*Overall:* Onoki, Gaara, Raikage, Tsunade, Mei

Jinton is stupidly broken on Onoki, making him the most powerful. Gaara has enough defenses to control a battlefield and his offense, while not enough to break through strong defenses, is enough to surround and seal anyone with good tank stats. Raikage is simply too fast to counter many offense/defenses but lacks any range and is somewhat squishy (in relative terms). Tsunade has tank feats but is too slow against most opponents. Mei is simply outclassed completely: her ninjutsu is either not strong enough (Suitons) or not ranged enough (Yoton, Futon).

*Pure Strength*: Tsunade, Onoki, Raikage, Mei, Gaara

Tsunade's actions in the manga suggest she's equivalent to Raikage and Onoki at the same time; she makes the #1. Onoki's weight jutsu is much more than I think Raikage can use, if his meteor-stopping feat is any indication. Mei beats Gaara in pure strength simply because she has an actual taijutsu feat: kicking Black Zetsu's face in early in the War Arc. Gaara...has Part 1 feats of getting his face kicked in?


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## thechickensage (Jun 10, 2015)

Choa said:


> I'm interested in why you say Mei has the least chance to win a fight



She has amazing elemental jutsu, but 

- Oonoki particle jutsus her, and can friggin fly
- Ay can blitz her preeeeetty hard, and can dodge her attacks.  he has to get close, though, which would be her opportunity to kill him.
- Tsunade can slug summon, and can heal from pretty much anything...and can 1shot KO mei if she even touches her.  
- Gaara has a long distance fighting style, and would avoid being harmed by her.  and from this position he can control the flow of combat (what he excels at)

but if mei could beat anyone, it would be Gaara because he wouldnt be able to finish her.  

what is your point of view?


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## Sansa (Jun 11, 2015)

I was thinking that she would be able to keep Ay at bay long enough to wear him down to a point where she could finish him. 
She does have long ranged attacks and can defend herself in cqc. Ay is basically just a blitz machine without any real defenses so in theory Mei should be able to win a 1v1 against Ay since she knows he has to get close and either allow him to close on her to make hitting him with a jutsu easier or keep him at bay with a barrage of jutsu.

She's not going to kill Tsunade, she's just not strong enough to damage her to the point that Byakugo/Katsuyu couldn't heal her this one isn't really a contest.

As for Gaara, they both prefer to fight at distance but I think Mei's skillset matches up well against Gaara's. From the Madara fight it looks like she's faster than him as well. In my opinion, she's a better version of him.  

I don't think she'd be able to beat Onoki and his particle/boulder jutsu.

So in my opinion Mei should be around 3rd strongest Kage behind Tsuna and Onoki.


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2015)

Overall:
Tsuande 
Onnoki 
Raikage |Gaara 
Mei 

Power: 
 Tsunade| Onnoki | AY
Gaara 
Mei


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## Mercurial (Jun 11, 2015)

1) Onoki
2) Ei
3) Gaara
4) Tsunade
5) Mei Terumi


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Its definitely Ei. He can defeat all of them and outpace each and everyone. Dont know how anyone can mention that frail and fragile old Ohnoki. Ei demolishes him before he can even move off the ground.

Both Mu and Gengetsu defeated him in the war, he aint beating Ei.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Onoki
Tsunade
A
gaara
Mei 

 i say tsunade is stronger than A. Since i am against this whole he cuts her head off on first attempt 

however i dont think anyone would suggest if she strikes  him, she wont put him down on the first hit


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## Mercurial (Jun 11, 2015)

She is not even coming close to hit him, even with V1 he is a lot faster than she is, and if she tanks his hits he can just use his Raiton chops to bisect and decapitate her. V2 it's a total blitz she can't even fathom, her reflexes, let alone body speed, are tiers and tiers below. If she tanks the hit to hit him after, stopping him like Naruto did to hit Kabuto with Rasengan, Ei would just chop the arm that it's grappling him with a Raiton chop, then cut her head off.


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## Ersa (Jun 11, 2015)

1. Onoki
2. Tsunade / Ei
3. Tsunade / Ei
4. Mei
5. Gaara

Assuming they aren't in favourable conditions for Gaara like the war gave him. If they are in the desert throw Gaara ahead of Mei maybe.


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## ARGUS (Jun 11, 2015)

Ay or Onoki are the strongest


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Choa said:


> I was thinking that she would be able to keep Ay at bay long enough to wear him down to a point where she could finish him.



The one who would wear down is Mei. He'd dodge her jutsu all day at long range. He'd possibly be able to do it at short since he got away from Jugo's laser gun thing at point-blank range. 



Choa said:


> She does have long ranged attacks and can defend herself in cqc.



Defend herself in close combat? From A? 

She's likely far worse than Monster Jugo in that area. Raikage snaps her neck.

Oh, and Mei literally gets torn in half by v2 whenever A feels like using it. 



Choa said:


> As for Gaara, they both prefer to fight at distance but I think Mei's skillset matches up well against Gaara's. From the Madara fight it looks like she's faster than him as well. In my opinion, she's a better version of him.



He can gather more sand over the corse of a fight, so he's probably going to be the one that gets overwhelmed in the end. Unless she can surround him in acidic mist and he isn't fast enough to escape, he's eventually just going to burry her with a tidal wave and flatten her with Sand Burial.


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## ueharakk (Jun 11, 2015)

Probably oonoki in most 1 vs 1 situations.

The other kages can outperform him in other situations, like Tsunade if the kages are fighting with their villages, or Ei if the situation calls for someone extremely fast.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> She is not even coming close to hit him, even with V1 he is a lot faster than she is, and if she tanks his hits he can just use his Raiton chops to bisect and decapitate her. V2 it's a total blitz she can't even fathom, her reflexes, let alone body speed, are tiers and tiers below. If she tanks the hit to hit him after, stopping him like Naruto did to hit Kabuto with Rasengan, Ei would just chop the arm that it's grappling him with a Raiton chop, then cut her head off.



its not A fighting style at all think about it

he went against MADARA UCHIHA with rinnegan as an Edo tensei 

i.e every reason to go for karate chops and deal the most damage

yet what does A do, a straight punch not even capable of damaging madara body

so this whole he chops people left and right is BS UTTER RIDICULOUS BS 

A boosted by back onoki karate chopped Muu and Muu didn't even receive any noticeable damage

At best A chops tsunade, and breaks her neck. she gets up and kills him


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## LostSelf (Jun 11, 2015)

Onoki, Ei, Tsunade, Gaara, Mei.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 11, 2015)

1 - Onoki
2 - A
3 - Gaara
4 - Tsunade
5 - Mei


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 11, 2015)

Oonoki, Tsunade, Ei, Gaara, Mei.

Jinton is broken, and Oonoki is still really good outside of that, in both offence, defence, support, and utility roles.
Tsunade is awesome at offence and defence and support with medical jutsu, and field control with slug, and not dying is a plus.
Ei's extra speed is cool, but I wouldn't trade Katsuya for it.
Gaara can rise, rise, rise, and do his stuff if he grinds.
Mei becomes far more deadly with distance.

The top two are separated from the rest, in that they perform in top tier conditions in multiple roles, in multiple ways, and they aren't dependent on location, distance, or time to do so.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The top two are separated from the rest, in that they perform in top tier conditions in multiple roles, in multiple ways, and they aren't dependent on location, distance, or time to do



Tsunade is top grade in a supplementary role alone, and Onoki really only dances with the big boys when he's using Jinton. 

Tsunade offense & defense are middle of the pack, along with Onoki's defense and support. 

I feel that Onoki's weight Jutsu is highly circumstantial. The backpack trick is only good on like three people (medical ninjutsu works on everyone), and using it in direct combat can end up doing more harm than good as we saw against Gengetsu.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 11, 2015)

Onoki's Golem Hands performed extremely well actually. Appeared at a great distance from him, blocked Susano swings, grabbed Raikage and very quickly transported him via underground to Onoki.


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## Jad (Jun 11, 2015)

Onoki or A (Rocky I think made a good point about Ay teleporting in the air which is blitzing material). Probably Onoki though. Tough.
Gaara
Tsunade Senju
Mei Terumi

I think.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

A sole advantage is speed here, even in terms of endurance he lags behind tsunade
she was conscious after being split in half and even saved A

A got a little injury and passed out 

I really dont see how A can be considered superior solely based on being faster. Haku is also faster than tsunade, yet he is a fly by comparison 

All A got is speed, even his karate chop didnt do jack shit to Muu. Muu you know, the guy with no mention of being durable

btw that was A punch boosted by onoki technique

tsunade punch blew a hole in madara, just saying


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

1. Tsunade [2.5 Year Byakugo]
2. Onoki
3. Tsunade [War-Arc Byakugo]
4. Gaara
5. Ei
6. Mei

Tsunade with enough chakra sealed in Byakugo no In is the strongest due to Byakugo retecons. Onoki is the second strongest given his feats in the Madara duel. Tsunade with [War-Arc] Byakugo edges it out over Gaara and Ei, who are fairly close, and Mei is the weakest. Albeit Mei had the least chance to show feats, so she could be stronger as well, and I don't think she is as far bellow Ei and the others as people might believe.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 11, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Onoki
> Tsunade
> A
> gaara
> ...



Ei sliced of the 8 tails horn. If he can do that, I don't think tsuandes head is a problem

you say ei only has speed, yet his speed is in a different class from all of those kage. The sharingan cannot follow his speed, so that's why it's such a dangerous weapon.

And ei has speed and strength. Incredible strength only inferior to tsunade.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade is top grade in a supplementary role alone, and Onoki really only dances with the big boys when he's using Jinton.
> 
> Tsunade offense & defense are middle of the pack, along with Onoki's defense and support.
> 
> I feel that Onoki's weight Jutsu is highly circumstantial. The backpack trick is only good on like three people (medical ninjutsu works on everyone), and using it in direct combat can end up doing more harm than good as we saw against Gengetsu.



What AP said.  Onoki's golems also got praised by Madara when topped with sand as a defence.  Onoki also supported against Madara with Naruto and Gaara, lightening his sand, and using earth core shift to stagger Madara and create an opening.  He was support vs Muu when Naruto and Gaara came as well, and sealed the deal with heavy weight technique.  Weighting the enemy doesn't have any of the drawbacks of weighting your own attacks.  The ability to give flight is also pretty good.  It has drawbacks in lowered attack power, but for ninjutsu specialist, swordsmen, and anyone who doesn't rely on strength for offence, it's phenomenal.  He has nearly every doton ever used in the manga, and it's the best straight element at defence and supplementary.  

I would say Tsunade's offence was middle of the pack, she wouldn't have been leading the strike force against Madara as the first and finishing blows.  Her slug is a pretty good defence.  Saved a lot of people vs CST.  Though it's less than Gaara's and Onoki's.  Her personal defence and durability is less than Ei's, but that's okay because she regenerates.

Middling by kage level is still middle of kage level, and therefore still significant.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Ei sliced of the 8 tails horn. If he can do that, I don't think tsuandes head is a problem
> 
> you say ei only has speed, yet his speed is in a different class from all of those kage. The sharingan cannot follow his speed, so that's why it's such a dangerous weapon.
> 
> And ei has speed and strength. Incredible strength only inferior to tsunade.



so what happened with Muu then? he failed to slice or even break Muu skin 

Perhaps it goes to show what i have been saying all along. A karate chop boosted by gravity like kishi said makes his jutsu stronger. I could provide you with the DB entry but i know you know it all too well 

horizontal lightninng press>> lightning press as the Db explained 



When he tried to lightning press against Muu even when boosted by Onoki jutsu, he didnt slice Muu

therefore he will not slice tsunade unless he jumps up and comes down on her. which would be easier for her to avoid

A strength is also inferior to the likes of chouji. just saying 

A has never really split anyone in half while fighting despite having quite a few opportunities to do so


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2015)

I'd rank them as:

Onoki
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei
A


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 11, 2015)

People continue to put Tsunade above Gaara and Ei. Like no. 

Ohnoki and Gaara are the strongest. 

Ohnoki/Gaara
Ei
Mei

Mei is the weakest hoe. She isn't beating Gaara. People need to get that out of their minds right now.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

1. Onoki
2. A
3. Gaara
4. Mei
5. Tsunade


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 11, 2015)

Tsunade is not the strongest. 

Can't beat Gaara Ei, or Ohnoki

Hell Mei gives her a good fight.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Onoki's golems also got praised by Madara when topped with sand as a defence.



I'm not saying that Onoki is defenseless, but as good as golems and earth walls are, I'd disagree with him being at the top of his tier in defensive ability. There are too many people with better defense. A & Triple-A (RCM Armor & speed + natural durability), Gengetsu (Mirage), Mu (he's Onoki with invisibility), Gaara (after grinding), Kisame (ninjutsu absorption + Daikodan), etc. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The ability to give flight is also pretty good.



I take back what I said because I forgot about this. Onoki probably is right under Tsunade & Sakura in terms of support.

So if we're evaluating the Kages strength by who'a the most complete, then I'd be fine with saying that Onoki is the strongest. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I would say Tsunade's offence was middle of the pack, she wouldn't have been leading the strike force against Madara as the first and finishing blows.



The five Kage that fought Madara have some of the worst offsenses in the tier when it comes to destructiveness, and Madara has one of the best defensive techniques in the manga. 

Tsunade has decent DC, but it comes in the form of physical power and she has average speed, so that limits its effectivenss. I'm not saying that she has no offense (because she can still create openings to hit people), but compared to village-nuking bombs, atomizing beams, shapeshifting sand that wins by scratching you, town-level wind tigers, town-level wind shuriken....I think you can see that Tsunade doesn't operate at the top of her tier offensively. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Her personal defence and durability is less than Ei's, but that's okay because she regenerates.



I define defense as the ability to stop oneself from taking damage. Regeneration could be classified as defense I guess, but there's so much it doesn't help against. Techniques that stay glued to her (Goemon, Amaterasu), don't damage her body (any powerful genjutsu, Kamui), or outright kill her (Jinton, Bijudama) don't care about regeneration. 

The ultimate and unlimited healing Creation Rebirth provides is fantastic, but I don't think it's _as_ great as evading or preventing damage from being done in the first place. 

Characters in the manga would probably agree with me, which is why A said Tsunade was getting sloppy when she starting getting hit by attacks that she was just going to regenerate from anyway. 

Another example is Madara expressing concern at being hit directly by Gai and using shields to prevent that despite possessing the ability to heal off the damage with super HashiJubiRama regeneration.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

^Sorry since when does goemon have the ability to stay glued to someone? is it because its hot oil?

I don't get explain please


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Yes, because it's hot oil.

Go jump in a pool of hot oil and then get out.

There's going to be hot oil on you.


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## Lawrence777 (Jun 11, 2015)

I'd say on there lonesome/1v1s
Onoki/Ei
Onoki/Ei
Gaara
Tsunade 
Mei

Overall in battle groups
Tsunade
Onoki 
Ei 
Gaara
Mei


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## Turrin (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not saying that Onoki is defenseless, but as good as golems and earth walls are, I'd disagree with him being at the top of his tier in defensive ability. There are too many people with better defense. A & Triple-A (RCM Armor & speed + natural durability), Gengetsu (Mirage), Mu (he's Onoki with invisibility), Gaara (after grinding), Kisame (ninjutsu absorption + Daikodan), etc.


Onoki and Tsunade were the only ones who were not eventually overwhelmed by the Madara clones, and out of those two Onoki certainly was defending himself much better than Tsunade. He even was able to spare time to defend Ei at the last second. Additionally he was the main reason that the alliance was able to defend against Madara's meteors and he was the sole Gokage able to defend against Flower-Tree-World. He also escaped/defended BZ's spore Jutsu the quickest out of the Gokage due to his turning anything touching him to stone trick.

As far as actual abilities go. Onoki is not just Golems and Earth-Walls, we've seen both his Jinton and weight alteration be used defensively to great effective [see above examples]. He also has high-speed flight, Iwabushin, and the ability to turn things that touch him into stone.

His defense is quite formidable as proven time and time again in the manga cannon.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes, because it's hot oil.
> 
> Go jump in a pool of hot oil and then get out.
> 
> There's going to be hot oil on you.



wont the oil dry eventually evaporate? its oil? depending on the type of hydrocarbon entirely possible gomeon evaporates like olivie oil vs being sticky and pesky like C5H10 compounds or more complex 

goemon should not be an issue for tsunade


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2015)

I don't understand how anyone could possibly have Tsuande below Mei. That's literally just hatred.


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## Icegaze (Jun 11, 2015)

^ I know right. tsunade and Mei were put in the exact same situation. mei needed saving, tsunade did not 

its pure hatered. I think people forget that the only kage who was conscious in the end was tsunade despite suffering far greater injuries than the other 4 combined 

but hey haters gonna hate


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Turrin said:


> As far as actual abilities go. Onoki is not just Golems and Earth-Walls, we've seen both his Jinton and weight alteration be used defensively to great effective [see above examples].



Weight alteration is circumstantial. Very circumstantial. There are a limited number of techniques in the entire Narutoverse that it would stop, and Madara happened to have two of them. 

Look at the major offenses of the other guys in his tier. Would weight alteration stop v2 punch? Nukite? Jinton? Daikodan? Hirodura? Joki Boi? Sand Tsunami? Satetsu Shigure or Kaiho?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and no.

As for Jinton being used as defense, almost everybody can ram ranged jutsu into an oncoming attack and cancel it out. That isn't something unique to Onoki. Difference is that those I listed have alternative, more defensive techniques on top of that, making them better than Onoki.



Turrin said:


> He also has high-speed flight, Iwabushin, and the ability to turn things that touch him into stone.



These are rather basic. All kage can use Shunshin to dodge things, and most can probably create a clone or two as well. The turn things to stone technique probably even more circumstantial than weight alteration. 



Turrin said:


> His defense is quite formidable as proven time and time again in the manga cannon.



I didn't say it wasn't formidable.

I just said it wasn't at the top of his tier.


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## Grimsley (Jun 11, 2015)

Onoki
Gaara (in sand)
Ei/Tsunade/Gaara
Mei


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## StickaStick (Jun 11, 2015)

Onoki
Gaara / Tsunade
Tsunade / Gaara
Ei 
Mei


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I don't understand how anyone could possibly have Tsuande below Mei. That's literally just hatred.



Since I do, allow me to explain why that's my opinion.

I consider Mei to be able to use Acid Mist like Zabuza's Hidden Mist.

She didn't against Madara for the benefit of the other Kage there.

So she's Zabuza with _way_ bigger  and a mist that melts bodies instantly.

IMO that trumps the regenerating Hulk.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

I literally can't think of anyone that Mei could kill with the mist before they've either:

1.) Blitzed her.

2.) Cleared it/blown up the area.

3.) Ran out of its range.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Running out of its range doesn't really change the fact that she's hiding safely in a Hidden Acid Mist that she can continue to generate. Or she can use normal mist, and then bam, surprise, acid mist.

And I don't consider Mei any easier to blitz than Jiraiya, and don't know why anybody would aside from Kishi sexism.​


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Since I do, allow me to explain why that's my opinion.
> 
> I consider Mei to be able to use Acid Mist like Zabuza's Hidden Mist.
> 
> ...



That regenerating Hulk also has access to Katsuyu and can amp up people's jutsu along with battle field wide healing/protecting. I don't think Mei trumps that


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Tsunade's an infinitely better teammate than Mei, but so is Karen. Just because Karen can sense, heal, and offer far more utility to the people around her doesn't mean I rank her combat aspects higher.

I also consider the Acid Mist jutsu to be one of the jutsu that would totally fuck Katsuya.​


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2015)

With the chains, she just might be 

Ha. Haha. Hahahahaha. I laugh at such disrespect but Katsuyu has her own acid she can spit as well as can use Tsunade's Byakugo to keep healing if she did get caught in Mei's mist. So Katsuyu has something that would totally fuck Mei while at the same time be able to take being totally fucked up thanks to Tsunade, unlike Mei


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Running out of its range doesn't really change the fact that she's hiding safely in a Hidden Acid Mist that she can continue to generate. Or she can use normal mist, and then bam, surprise, acid mist.



Yeah, but the only ones that need to run out of it can outlast her anyway.

Tell me, who does Mei beat that Tsunade doesn't?



Strategoob said:


> And I don't consider Mei any easier to blitz than Jiraiya or Onoki, and don't know why anybody would aside from Kishi sexism.



Well for one, I don't know where the assumption that she has tier 4.5 speed & taijutsu comes from, but the ones that would blitz her are the super speedsters. Raikage, Gai, ya know. And it isn't really "blitz," it's more just dash into close combat and take advantage of the fact that thier jutsu don't require time consuimg hand seals. Liger Bomb/Asa Kujaku/Nukite would all beat Mei pretty comfortably.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

How is Katsuya going to land acid on someone she can't see?

I don't think it's unavoidable to a Kage either, even without concealment.

And yeah, Katsuya can heal. But that's a huge waste of Byakugo chakra.

Healing from occasional human-size stab wounds is _incomparable_.

To a massive creature constantly regenerating flesh from acid.

Acid that melts Susano'o instantly no less.

Tsunade letting Katsuya drain her Byakugo would be dumb as hell.


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2015)

Katsuyu can shot off a decently big blast of acid but as we saw a small(well smaller compared to the normal boss size one) clone of Katsuyu was gonna spit acid at Orochi which means if Katsuyu splits into a bunch of clones(like she did to protect everyone against Deva paths CST) and they start spiting off acid, chances are Mei will get caught eventually whether Katsuyu can see her or not.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tell me, who does Mei beat that Tsunade doesn't?



Due to the nature of Tsunade's in-your-face style versus Mei's stealth technique, I believe Mei would generally perform better in 1v1 matches. It would be redundant for me to list all the names.

And for the same reason I begrudgingly allow Jiraiya or Bee not to be blitzed by Itachi despite feats making it plausible, I let Mei get her plot roll. And when she starts rolling with Mist, she's set.

For instance, what's A or his dad going to do when Mei's in her mist? They're going to do jack shit, that's what. They retreat. On the other hand, Tsunade's going to lose her head in no time flat.

And in this sense, she can hold her own much better against ninja I consider much stronger than her. Even Itachi or Minato have nothing to do at that point but call it a day and relocate.
​


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

I literally can't think of one person she beats that Tsunade doesn't.


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Since I do, allow me to explain why that's my opinion.
> 
> I consider Mei to be able to use Acid Mist like Zabuza's Hidden Mist.
> 
> ...



Yeah no. Up until the Juubito arc came around, tsuande was top tier at everything she specialized in. She wielded Byakago( the best regeneration at the time) + chakra enhanced strength( far stronger than Ay, capable of obliterating Sussano) + high level taijustu( hyped to be unrivaled in CQC + the perfect score in the DB) + medical Ninjustu( best in the entire manga  as she developed the system and made War Arc sakura look like a child) + Katsuyu( which complements her durabilty, medical Ninjustu, shared vision, and ranged attacks).

Now Tsuande with all of that clearly beats the Mizuakage , but even if she didn't, we know Tsuandes hype alone completely eclipses any other of the Gokage. A Hokage|Sannin level individual aka the greatest medical ninja ever + one of the most OP Boss summonings . And I know very well that you use hype a lot( @ Itachi) to place Shinobi on certain tiers. Tsuande not only has fears that are superior to Mei( like in direct comparisons like Mei not being able to cast a long range Justu as Tsuande jumps up and bats the fire ball away casually) but has hype that shits on her almost non existent hype. She's also the hokage, and is hyped to be > to all the other Kage as tradition has it.

Overall, it's clear that Tsuande is even above all the rest of the KAGE. Not only was she able to hold her own against Madara( without Katsuyu) but she could better than every kage except Onnoki( who's tailored to fighting regenerating Sussano clones). That doesn't event factor in that as support she's far better than any other kage. Onnoki also sports some  powerful supporting abilities, but nothing comes close to top tier regeneration( heals chakra exhaustion with a tap of the forehead), chakra boosting, and a Katsuyu unit increasing offensive, defense and communication. You clearly sleep on Tsuande all the time, but that's surprising.

lol that doesn't trump anything.... But I guess that's just as logical as me saying that a regenerating hulk trumps a Genjustu specialist with sussano


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> And for the same reason I begrudgingly allow Jiraiya or Bee not to be blitzed by Itachi in my mind, I let Mei get a chance to start rolling. And when she starts rolling with Mist, she's pretty set.



Itachi doesn't have lightning or Gates to enhance his flickers, and both B & Jiraiya are probably faster than Mei. 

Even Itachi could probably pressure her enough to interrupt hand seals if given a favorable difference, like Mifune. 



Strategoob said:


> For instance, what's A going to do when Mei's in her mist? Jack shit. Stalemate at best for him. On the other hand, Tsunade's going to lose her head in no time flat.



Flicker out of it and wait for her to run out of chakra from using it. 

That is if he can't locate her by sound and chop her in half.



Strategoob said:


> Even Itachi or Minato have nothing to do at that point but call it a day and relocate.





Against either she'd probably be dead before she got set up like that, but even if caught Itachi could tornado spin with his giant Susano'o blade and catch her, while Minato could summon Gamabunta and hop out of there.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I literally can't think of one person she beats that Tsunade doesn't.



Funny. I can think of dozens of ninja that would absolutely control a battle against Tsunade, but can't do anything other than relocate away from Mei in her Acid Mist. It's a sweet kekkei genkai.

"Rush her before she uses a jutsu" seems like a really cheap cop-out that other Kage level ninja don't deal with in the Battledome. Kishi tends to let battles build, and that's the mindset most posters have.

i.e. why finger genjutsu being realistic and unrecognizable as genjutsu for several seconds would result in Ōnoki's death, but we don't argue that simply because Kishi lets ninja use their jutsu.

But on the other hand, posters would probably be okay with finger genjutsu working on Mei and not Ōnoki, even though neither is any better suited against Itachi's legendary genjutsu skillz.​


Rocky said:


> Flicker out of it and wait for her to run out of chakra from using it.



i.e. run away. And once the mist is made, it's made. Nor is it particularly chakra exhausting.​


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2015)

You also have to say if you mean War Arc Tsuande or Pain arc Tsuande. Pain Arc Tsuande( if she had Byakago) is >>> to any Gokage member. She could summon 10% Katusyu over Mei and kill her. Or 10% Katsuyu could shoot out Kyyubi sized acid balls and catch her very quickly in the mist.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Funny. I can think of dozens of ninja that absolutely control the battle against Tsunade, but can't do anything other than relocate away from Mei in her Acid Mist.​



Just do it.

Name one ninja Tsunade would lose to that Mei wins against. 



Strategoob said:


> i.e. run away. And once the mist is made, it's made. Nor is it particularly chakra exhausting. In a war environment, Mei is going to _own_ a battlefield.​



Nah, Zabuza's mist disappeared at the moment of his death, so I'd say that it cost constant chakra to keep active.

Though in terms of fodder killing, Mei is probably more efficient than most. She's *nowhere near* Tsunade in terms of usefulness in war though.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just do it.
> 
> Name one ninja Tsunade would lose to that Mei wins against.



I'm not sure what Minato does against the Acid Mist other than flee.

He sure isn't spreading tags in there.


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## Ersa (Jun 11, 2015)

I don't understand how anyone could possibly have Mei below Gaara. That's literally just hatred.


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## Veracity (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not sure what Minato does against the Acid Mist other than flee.
> 
> He sure isn't spreading tags in there.



Minato still has the Gama trio which have high AoE techniques. 

@Eratsz 

Pretty sure most of us here think Gaara beats Mei.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not sure what Minato does against the Acid Mist other than flee.
> 
> He sure isn't spreading tags in there.



Minato literally throws a marker over Mei's head, warps to it, and summons Gamabunta on top of her. Good. Game. 

Even if she somehow avoids that fate, or just being marked before she sets up a zero visibility mist, Minato can still use Kuchiyose to hop outta there (Bunta covers ridiculous distances with one jump). Then Minato admires his smile in the reflection of his kunai while Mei drains her chakra shooting off dragons at every little insect that makes a sound,.

I'm not seeing mist jutsu being useful unless you've got a way to keep shinobi inside of it. 

As for Sasori beating Tsunade pre-edit...I'll leave this here.:



			
				Flamey said:
			
		

> There are multiple ways a toxin can cause paralysis. If the anime's description of Sasori's isn't already correct, then it's at the very least on the right track.
> 
> Going by the databook explanation of Saikan Chūshutsu no Jutsu, which Sakura utilized in order to save Kankuro, Sasori's poison essentially deals a very fine physical damage to produce its effect (which lines up with Tsunade's comments about poisons being like cellular scale attacks during Kakuzu's autopsy), as it's pointed out in the description that Sakura's technique traced the toxin causing injury then both removed it and healed the injury that was being inflicted by it.
> 
> ...


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## Ersa (Jun 11, 2015)

Mei would melt Gaara's vagina.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato literally throws a marker over Mei's head, warps to it, and summons Gamabunta on top of her. Good. Game.



Bull-fucking-shit. Minato wouldn't drop Gamabuta in Acid Mist. Mei is also a Kage (and superhuman, like all ninja) and can shunshin out of the way a lot faster than gravity pulls something down.

As for Sasori's poison and Tsunade, her regeneration works via rapid cellular growth from a chakra-surge. You know what other group of people heal in a similar manner? Jinchuriki. Who Sasori hunted.​


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasori.
> 
> Minato.
> 
> Not sure what Minato does against the Mist other than flee.



Tsunade is like Sasori's kryptonite. 

Mei can't beat Minato either.

Kirigakure no Jutsu is not intangibility. The user still has to physically get out of the way of any attack in order to avoid being hit with it.

Komū no Jutsu is not as hard to see in as Kirigakure no Jutsu and does not melt at such a speed that it would injure a gigantic toad being dropped onto it before it landed and crushed whoever was beneath it.

Giant water bullets that can be fired at least twice in the same go, each powerful enough to cancel out two of Shukaku's giant air bullets, are also a problem.

Gamabunta is literally _too big_ of an issue to be solved by the mist, and if she leaves it....she may find herself running into Minato a little too quickly for comfort.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Bull-fucking-shit. Minato wouldn't drop Gamabuta in Acid Mist. Mei can also shunshin out of the way.​



Minato would being doing the summoning prior to any mist being present, and Mei's not flickering away from a 50m toad being summoned five feet from her head with absolutely no forewarning.

Though in all seriousness, Mei's not likely going to get the opportunity to set up a zero visibility mist against the Yellow Flash. He's going to run over to her and punch her, leaving a mark in the process.

Even if Minato _let_ her set it up, he could easily escape it by just warping away. Then when she cleared the mist to check if he's a skeleton, unexpectedly pops up at the small little symbol he left on the ground and roundhouse kicks her in the jaw.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade is like Sasori's kryptonite.
> 
> Mei can't beat Minato either.
> 
> ...



She doesn't need to leave the mist to shoot shit at Gamabuta.

And she has bigger suitons than Gamabuta.

And in any case, Gamabuta is not a measure Minato needs for Tsunade.

Which is my point.



Rocky said:


> Even if Minato _let_ her set it up, he could easily escape it by just warping away. *Then when she cleared the mist to check if he's a skeleton*, unexpectedly pops up at the small little symbol he left on the ground and roundhouse kicks her in the jaw.



She would dispel the entire mist and stand out in the open to check for a skeleton. Okay. I get the feeling that if she doesn't hear flesh melting and a body thudding, then that won't be happening.​


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> She would dispel the entire mist and stand out in the open to check for a skeleton as opposed to go up where he was while still in the mist.​



Is she not setting up a _zero visibility_ mist?

If she isn't, she's dying too quickly for acid to matter.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Because five-foot visibility and zero-foot visibility make all the difference when it comes to Acid Mist evidently.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

You said "like Zabuza," so I assumed you meant she was going to blind him.

If she's using it like she did against Sasuke, Minato can just grab onto her one he starts feeling the effects and relocate. 

Then she's pretty much dead, because no there's no mist and he's probably placed a mark on her.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

People in Zabuza's mist can see one another within five feet, no? This is kind of off point. There would be _plenty_ of non-visual indicators for a man being chewed up by acid alive and dying. 

The notion that Mei would drop the entire mist to look for a corpse and then be ambushed is ridiculous to me.​


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Zabuza's mist isn't zero-visibility. People within five feet can see one another, no?



I'm pretty sure it was zero. This is why Zabuza's method of killing based on sound was highlighted. 



Strategoob said:


> There would be _plenty_ of non-visual indicators for a man being chewed up by acid alive and dying. The notion that Mei would drop the entire mist to look for a corpse and then be ambushed is ridiculous to me.



She's still going to want to know what happened... 

Even if there are no auditory cues that Minato had died, I doubt she's going to just sit there forever wondering why she isn't hearing flesh burning. _Especially_ since the mist costs chakra to maintain.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure it was zero. This is why Zabuza's method of killing based on sound was highlighted.



Do you not live in a misty area? 

How far you can see depends on mist-thickness.

There is zero-visiblity past a certain point. Maybe 100 feet. Maybe 5 feet.

In the manga, we can see characters can see in close range in the mist.

Hence me saying Mei doesn't need to drop her cover to inspect areas.



Rocky said:


> Even if there are no auditory cues that Minato had died, I doubt she's going to just sit there forever wondering why she isn't hearing flesh burning. _Especially_ since the mist costs chakra to maintain.



I might be thinking outside the box here, but uh, a sizzling corpse.

Probably smells.


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## Ersa (Jun 11, 2015)

I remember debating with FlamingRain about Mei could defeat Tsunade if she could locate a water source.

I think it's a lot closer then people would think.


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## Rocky (Jun 11, 2015)

Is that any better?

You think she's going to walk around barley able to see her hands in front of her face searching for Minato?

I don't know why you find her upping the visibility so she can reliably search for him to be so laughable.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Weight alteration is circumstantial. Very circumstantial. There are a limited number of techniques in the entire Narutoverse that it would stop, and Madara happened to have two of them.


I can't disagree with you more Rocky. The fact of the matter is weight control absolutely trolls any fighter who relies on manipulating a preexisting source. All the Kazekage's we've seen get trolled beyond belief by their sand, dust, iron being heavy weighted. All the Suitons users like Kisame and Mei who manipulate preexisting water sources get trolled [and before you say it doesn't work on water for some inexplicable reason, it was used on humans who are mostly water and heavy weighted pure chakra]. Puppet users get trolled as well since the weight control can be channeled through any puppet's chakra threads to effect the caster as it was channeled through the chakra construct Susano'o. All Doton users that rely on manipulating the actual earth like Kitsuchi get trolled and anyone who uses Doton to hide or move under ground gets squashed immediately. Summons, Giant entities, and other constructs like Joki Boi are also trolled by this, in the same way Madara's Susano'o were by being heavy weighted into oblivion. 

This is w/o getting into Onoki's ability to lighten the weight of something to the point that he could smack it away like a fly, given how light he made turtle island and all it's inhabitants, or light weight giant land masses to lift up and use as island sized shields.



> Look at the major offenses of the other guys in his tier. Would weight alteration stop v2 punch? Nukite? Jinton? Daikodan? Hirodura? Joki Boi? Sand Tsunami? Satetsu Shigure or Kaiho?


Daikodan Satetsu, and Sand all get trolled by heavy weighting their source

Joki Boi can also be heavy weighted or turned to stone w/ the use a of a clone.

Nukite, V2-Punch, Jinton, and Hirodura I'll grant you, but that hardly changes the fact that weight alteration trolls the fuck out of a great many of techniques as a defensive move. In-fact I almost feel like you forgot that Onoki can heavy weight things and are just talking about his light weighting capabilities.



> As for Jinton being used as defense, almost everybody can ram ranged jutsu into an oncoming attack and cancel it out.


Rocky come on. Not a-lot of people on Onoki's "level" have a technique that can literally atomize nearly everything, be transformed into a variety of shapes, and be freely manipulated 360 degrees. This is much more than say Kakashi barfing out a Suiton to try push back an incoming attack.



> Difference is that those I listed have alternative, more defensive techniques


Onoki - Weight Control, High Order Dotons like Golems and Shifting Earth Core, Flight, Iwabushin, and Jintons

Ei and Sandaime - Speed and Durability

Gengetsu - Clam Genjutsu, Suika no Jutsu, and Joki Boi

Mu - Jinton, Sensing, Bunretsu, Invis

Gaara -, Suna Bushin, Sand Detection, Flight, Suna Armor, etc....

Kisame - Chakra Absorption, Sensing [In Kisamehada Form], Mizubushin, Suitons

Only Gaara has more defensive techniques/abilities and his entire stick is defense and he's had infinitely more panel time, so that only makes sense, than all the rest have less. 



> on top of that, making them better than Onoki.


Ei and Sandaime haven't shown any Long-Range attack, and certainly have absolutely nothing to support them having anything like Jinton.

Gaara and Gengetsu's Tsunami and Joki Boi are nothing compared to Jinton, under neutral conditions. Mu has Jinton, but distinctly inferior Jinton in size/scope to Post-Stone-Will Onoki. 

That leaves Kisame. Daikodan i'd say is similarly well suited to being used defensively due to it's size and chakra absorbing capabilities, but Kisame needs to be cracked out on Hachibi Chakra to pull such a large one, give Onoki that much Hachibi chakra and his Jinton would easily step to God Tiers.



> I just said it wasn't at the top of his tier.


That depends who is in his Tier. Is it at Minato and Tobirama "level", well aside from the enemies weight control trolls, no, but it's certainly at least competitive with the people you list, if not downright better.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I can't disagree with you more Rocky. The fact of the matter is weight control absolutely trolls any fighter who relies on manipulating a preexisting source.



First, there aren't many Mid Kages who rely on a source. 

For the one's that do, I don't see how increasing the weight would stop the caster from using that source. Wouldn't that just make the material hurt Onoki more when they send it flying at him?

Even if it stops the source from being used, the only guy in the tier that shuts down is Kisame. If Onoki tried to fly near Chakra or Iron Sand he'd likely end up catching a Drizzle technique from them. In Sasori's case, he could try and poison Onoki with the puppets close combat options. 

I really don't see how you countered my point. Weight alteration is still way more circumstantial than evasion/stealth & durability, which are just better all-around defenses.



Turrin said:


> Joki Boi can also be heavy weighted or turned to stone w/ the use a of a clone.



Ermmm, no? What, do you think Onoki's going actually catch it? The clone will only go near Onoki when it's ready to blow up, and at that point Onoki'll get blown up if he tries to touch it.



Turrin said:


> ...but that hardly changes the fact that weight alteration trolls the fuck out of a great many of techniques as a defensive move.



It trolls like two techniques. Grinded sand and spat-out lakes. 



Turrin said:


> Onoki - Weight Control, High Order Dotons like Golems and Shifting Earth Core, Flight, Iwabushin, and Jintons
> 
> Ei and Sandaime - Speed and Durability
> 
> ...



This is blatant favoritism towards Onoki. Let me fix it, and I'll keep it in your style by counting O as D:


*Spoiler*: _Break down_ 



Onoki- Weight Control, Dontonjutsu, Decent Evasion (Flight), Clonejutsu, Jinton.

A- Natural durability, Lightning Armor, Top Notch Evasion (Lightning flickers). He likely has clonjutsu and ranged Raiton in some form though. 

3rd A- Same thing as above, except less speed and more durability. He's definitely got ranged Raiton in the form of black lightning.

Mu- Same as Onoki minus the weight control. Instead he's got sensing and invisibility which are objectively more useful against a wider range of enemies, so he wins.

Gengetsu- Sukia, Mirage, Joki Boi, likely decent evasion (Shunshin), and likely some sort of ranged Suitonjutsu & Clonejutsu.

Kisame- On top of what you said, he's got great durability, likely decent evasion (Shunshin), and has potential access to Daikodan and regeneration. 




So they all likely have a similar _number_ of defensive techniques, but I find the novelty jutsu of the other Kage (Lightning Shunshin, "Strongest Shield," Invisibility, Mirage, and Daikodan to be generally more useful defensively than Weight Control. I don't even think it's debatable. 

That jutsu shines in a support role.



Turrin said:


> Ei and Sandaime haven't shown any Long-Range attack, and certainly have absolutely nothing to support them having anything like Jinton. Gaara and Gengetsu's Tsunami and Joki Boi are nothing compared to Jinton, under neutral conditions. Mu has Jinton, but distinctly inferior Jinton in size/scope to Post-Stone-Will Onoki.



There are going to be some attack that Jinton may take care of that ranged jutsu from the other kage may fail to do. I agree with that.

That said, Jinton tires Onoki, and since it's more of an offensive technique it's not that good generally for defending against a bunch a techniques. Mu just sets up invisibility and he's good to go. Same with Trollkage and his Mirage. Raikages have their lightning armor to augment already top grade durability, so they're Gucchi. 

Onoki is left reacting to something with Jinton. That's going to tire him immensely, and he could still be feinted and hit in most cases.



Turrin said:


> That depends who is in his Tier. Is it at Minato and Tobirama "level", well aside from the enemies weight control trolls, no, but it's certainly at least competitive with the people you list, if not downright better.



It's competitive with them, but Onoki has nothing on the cloaking techniques of Mu & Gengetsu, and the speed & durability combo from the Raikages are non-taxing and generally going to defend against more techniques than Weight Control or even Jinton.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 12, 2015)

It's like Strat tries to balance his support of a powerhouse like Itachi by supporting scrubs like Mei and Rasa(and Kimi with Haku). Iirc Mei even spoke to Tsunade as her superior/very respectful at the second Gokage meeting. Acid Mist is overrated I believe. We never saw how exactly lethal it is. Sasuke ended up with just a minor burn when some of it got past Susano.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Since I do, allow me to explain why that's my opinion.
> 
> I consider Mei to be able to use Acid Mist like Zabuza's Hidden Mist.
> 
> ...



DB has already stated physicall attacks on katsuyu is basically pointless. any part of her thats melted by the acid will simply fall off her body. 

Also tsunade got more chakra and can fight in acid mist no issues, she melts she regens. sadly a flick from her finger and Mei dies instantly no coming back from that

lets not forget boosting 5% katsuyu acid spit with byakuyo. Mei got no speed feats to suggest she doesnt take a bath in that and die


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## Ghost (Jun 12, 2015)

Ei is easily the strongest one.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2015)

What happens to you when you say Tsunade loses to another mid-tier kage:

​


Alex Payne said:


> It's like Strat tries to balance his support of a powerhouse like Itachi by supporting scrubs like Mei and Rasa(and Kimi with Haku). Iirc Mei even spoke to Tsunade as her superior/very respectful at the second Gokage meeting. Acid Mist is overrated I believe. We never saw how exactly lethal it is. Sasuke ended up with just a minor burn when some of it got past Susano.




I think that has more to do with age. Tsunade is an old woman despite her looks. And independently if power, Tsunade's achievements deserve respect.

I don't think Tsunade stomps Mei like i guess i've seen people implying here.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

tsunade wont stomp Mei, most kages wouldnt 

A and onoki would because of their skill set not because Mei is weak 

however Mei is the weakest and kishi went out of his way to show that. She is the only kage who basically needed saving without being distracted 

From how kishi showed each kage perform the ranking should be

onoki - commended by madara and stopped his 5 clones

tsunade - ultimately was the only kage left conscious despite receiving way more damage. Also needed no saving from any team mate unlike A or Mei. Also boosted onoki technique

Gaara- didnt need saving and saved Mei

A- needed saving

Mei- needed saving and was the first to give up 

obviously in direct combat A should beat onoki, while he looses to tsunade and beats gaara and Mei 

Mei could perhaps beat tsunade but thats about it. every other kage skill set trolls hers way too hard

gaara would punk tsunade while sleeping and so on 

However portrayal puts onoki and tsunade at the top


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2015)

Based on how they performed against the Susano'os, the list would be:

Onoki, Ei, Tsunade, Gaara, Mei.

But that's just one way to compare them. But in that fight, Madara went to take them out differently, and they fought a type of opponent that was a bad matchup for the 5 of them. And Ei lasted longer and only because he distracted himself.

Tsunade would be above because of support. But combat-wise, Ei is above. His almost unreactable speed is better than her strenght, considering Ei can chop people in half if he so desires.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 12, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> It's like Strat tries to balance his support of a powerhouse like Itachi by supporting scrubs like Mei and Rasa(and Kimi with Haku). Iirc Mei even spoke to Tsunade as her superior/very respectful at the second Gokage meeting. Acid Mist is overrated I believe. We never saw how exactly lethal it is. Sasuke ended up with just a minor burn when some of it got past Susano.



I prefer to think that I like supporting characters whose abilities are underrated by most users. 

I became an Itachi fan in the era where Itachi coudldn't move while casting genjutsu or using Susano'o (or any jutsu) and both could be countered without issue by any Kage level moving or using kai.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Based on how they performed against the Susano'os, the list would be:
> 
> Onoki, Ei, Tsunade, Gaara, Mei.
> 
> ...



Sorry how did A perform better? wasnt he knocked out unconscious in the end while she wasnt?

we also got no panels of him actually attackign susanoo. looks like he was playing a game of catch me if you can

 who has A chopped in half? he hit Muu with his karate chop and all it did was send him flying. A must use horizontal press (the one where he jumps) to have any hope of chopping anyone. considering thats the only time he has cut something while in raiton cloak 

Db also says the power of the jutus is increased by him falling on the victim 

A speed shouldnt be considered better than tsunade strength, considering both are actually power based fighters and ensure they get to their enemy. A by being super fast and wearing armor, tsunade by being able to heal all but molecular damage

When it comes to it though, she is more likely to kill anyone with a punch than he is


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> First, there aren't many Mid Kages who rely on a source.
> 
> For the one's that do, I don't see how increasing the weight would stop the caster from using that source. Wouldn't that just make the material hurt Onoki more when they send it flying at him?
> 
> ...


Rocky most of the Kazkeage's rely on covering the battlefield with their Sand, Iron, or Dust, the moment they do that, Onoki can heavy weight their entire source into oblivion. For more conservative uses he can send in clones to touch the blocks or small blasts of gourd sand. He can also use clones to touch Sasori's poisoned Satetsu or puppets to weight alter them, assuming he has knowledge, and if he doesn't anyone can potentially be scratched by Sasori, that's just how dangerous he is, but that doesn't change the fact that Onoki's weight alteration is still an excellent method for defending Satetsu and puppets, it just means Onoki may not be careful enough w/o knowledge.

As far as weight control not working goes. The DB explains in Rasa's Gold Dust Tsunami entry that his technique literally works by weighing down the source the enemy controls and making it difficult to control. Onoki's weight control is that but on steriods. Not to mention it's just common sense that if decreasing the weight makes a sources easier and faster to control, that increasing the weight would make it harder and much slower to control.



> Ermmm, no? What, do you think Onoki's going actually catch it? The clone will only go near Onoki when it's ready to blow up, and at that point Onoki'll get blown up if he tries to touch it.


Rocky are you forgetting the fact that Mizukage constantly had Joki Boi go into CQC in that fight and in-fact the way Gaara won was Joki Boi attacking a clone in CQC 



> It trolls like two techniques. Grinded sand and spat-out lakes.


You simply ignored half of my examples. But let's go through it all shall we

The technique is super effective against, the Kazekage's Jutsu, Mizukage's Joki Boi, Kisame's Suitons, Itachi & Sasuke's Susano'o, most of the Sannin's, Sasuke's, and Naruto's Summons, Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi, Sasori's Puppets, Edo-Tensei by turning them to stone, and Killer-B's Full Hachibi Form.

That gives it great effectiveness against the following Mid-Kages:

1. Naruto [Pain Arc]
2. Jiraiya
3. Tsunade
4. Orochimaru
5. Gaara
6. Rasa
7. Sandaime Kazekage
8. Sasori
9. Killer-B
10. Mizukage
11. Kisame
12. MS-Sasuke
13. Itachi

That pretty much leaves Minato, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Ei, and Sandaime as the only Mid-Kages it's not super useful against, though against Hiruzen it should still get some play as he relies on the Doton Element and Minato for his Toad Summons [though he's less reliant on them than the Sannin, hence me not putting him in that list]. It would also be useful in dealing with Tensei by turning them to stone,  but Tobirama's are more tricky with Gojo Fuda, so it will be more difficult than Orochimaru's to down them with the technique. 



> This is blatant favoritism towards Onoki. Let me fix it, and I'll keep it in your style by counting O as D:


Alright let's see how much favoritism it really is. 

Onoki by your own count has 5 defensive style abilities. 

Ei by your own count as 3, which is less. And no I'm not granting him Jutsu he's never shown or even been remotely hinted at him having, especially when were trying to keep "blatant favoritism" out of this

Sandaime also has 3, which is less. Kurokaminari may be a third, but we've certain seen Kurokaminari used not as a ranged technique in the form of Sasuke and even Darui's is just Mid-Range. But even granting him that 4 is still less.

Mu has not shown Onoki's Dotonjutsu, Weight Control, or Iwabushin. So it's not the same. He literally shares two defenses with Onoki Flight and Jinton, both of which he is "objectively" inferior to Onoki in. Than he has Sensing, Bunretsu, and Invis. Mu's Invis now that DBIV has revealed it's mechanics is as or more circumstantial than weight control in the amount of enemies it's effective against as most of the stronger ninja have a means of detecting Mu. Bunretsu is about equal to Iwabushin, due to it's extremely heavy cost. Sensing or giant golems and other doton defenses idk. Just saying it's close.

Mizukage taking away the made up stuff has 3, which is less than Onoki

Kisame I forgot about his regeneration, so perhaps he is about equivalent in number of defense. Again it's close.



> There are going to be some attack that Jinton may take care of that ranged jutsu from the other kage may fail to do. I agree with that.
> 
> That said, Jinton tires Onoki, and since it's more of an offensive technique it's not that good generally for defending against a bunch a techniques. Mu just sets up invisibility and he's good to go. Same with Trollkage and his Mirage. Raikages have their lightning armor to augment already top grade durability, so they're Gucchi.
> 
> Onoki is left reacting to something with Jinton. That's going to tire him immensely, and he could still be feinted and hit in most cases.


Jinton is not comparable to the techniques your talking about. Jinton defense would be useful for neutralizing singular Ougi techniques or wide AOE attacks, more so than defense that is used consistently. Both have their advantages and disadvantages though, the more consistent defenses your speaking off would have trouble with Ougi and AOE Techniques, while Jinton has to be use more sparingly [though not as much as your making it seem considering how many times Mu and Onoki clashed Jinton].



> It's competitive with them, but Onoki has nothing on the cloaking techniques of Mu & Gengetsu, and the speed & durability combo from the Raikages are non-taxing and generally going to defend against more techniques than Weight Control or even Jinton.


I think your underestimating Onoki's Defense. Not Just Weight-Control, but also Flight can hard troll certian enemies who lack powerful enough ranged techniques. Golem and Bushin are all purpose defenses that add overall versatility, and Jinton is good for defending AOE and Ougi techniques

Not many characters have that type of coverage


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## N120 (Jun 12, 2015)

Tsuande brigade


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## Veracity (Jun 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Based on how they performed against the Susano'os, the list would be:
> 
> Onoki, Ei, Tsunade, Gaara, Mei.
> 
> ...



You seem to forget that not only did Tsunade not have KATSUYU against the sussano clones, but she had to waste a portion of her chakra for healing and chakra boosting the Kage ?.


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rocky most of the Kazkeage's rely on covering the battlefield with their Sand, Iron, or Dust, the moment they do that, Onoki can heavy weight their entire source into oblivion.



Only Rasa relies on that. Gaara and Sasori have smaller bodies of sand that they control that Onoki likely won't be getting close to.



Turrin said:


> For more conservative uses he can send in clones to touch the blocks or small blasts of gourd sand.



His clones get popped by drizzle before they get anywhere near.




Turrin said:


> Rocky are you forgetting the fact that Mizukage constantly had Joki Boi go into CQC in that fight and in-fact the way Gaara won was Joki Boi attacking a clone in CQC



The Second Mizukage would probably opt against doing that when fighting Onoki because of the weight changing thing. That is something he didn't have to worry about versus Gaara.

Even if the clone did attack Onoki up close, how would he weigh it down if it's running a water blade through him?



Turrin said:


> The technique is super effective against, the Kazekage's Jutsu, Mizukage's Joki Boi, Kisame's Suitons, Itachi & Sasuke's Susano'o, most of the Sannin's, Sasuke's, and Naruto's Summons, Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi, Sasori's Puppets, Edo-Tensei by turning them to stone, and Killer-B's Full Hachibi Form.



I covered the first two examples. It would work well on Kisame's Suiton.

Itachi & Sasuke wouldn't let Onoki near Susano'o. It may work on some of the Sannin's summons, but not their best ones. The Toad Sages can protect themselves, Orochimaru can randomly pop out of his hydra and defend it with the diamond cutter if need be, and Katsuyu can split up. Naruto & Sasuke really don't summon often (or need to).

Sasori's puppets can poison Onoki if he tires to get close and casually pop any close with their weaponry, and Orochimaru & Kabuto Edo Tensei can defend themselves. Tobirama's can explode. 

Killer B could literally Hachimaki Onoki out of the air when he tried to get close and then go on to obliterate him with Bijudama while he's down. 




Turrin said:


> Alright let's see how much favoritism it really is.
> 
> Onoki by your own count has 5 defensive style abilities.
> 
> ...



Oh I see.

The Kage can't use Gennin jutsu like Shunshin or the respective elemental jutsu from their villages because they haven't shown it, and thus it's "made up......" 

Yeah, what was I thinking? Trollkage _totally_ can't flicker or use a water wall even though the mist fodder could. Mu, the Kage of the Village Hidden by Rock, definitely has no rock jutsu that are useful. I'm so silly.

Oh, and what's that bull crap about Mu being objectively inferior to Onoki in terms of Jinton and Flight? Onoki & Mu fought, and I noticed no difference. Even after Onoki remotivated himself, his Jinton didn't increase in scale until Tsunade boosted it, and Onoki will hardly ever be as motivated as he was against Madara when fighting someone else.



Turrin said:


> Jinton is not comparable to the techniques your talking about. Jinton defense would be useful for neutralizing singular Ougi techniques or wide AOE attacks, more so than defense that is used consistently.



No, Jinton is not _more_ useful against an Ougi then just getting out of the way or tanking it. Why don't you give me some examples of which Jutsu Jinton is more effective against. 

Even the AoE technique Jinton faced in cannon still put him to sleep initially. If Madara wanted, he couldn't have jumped down there and finished Onoki while he was dreaming about the stone will.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry how did A perform better? wasnt he knocked out unconscious in the end while she wasnt?
> 
> we also got no panels of him actually attackign susanoo. looks like he was playing a game of catch me if you can
> 
> ...



All of them lost. Tsunade received more hits than him. And he only was captured because he was distracted. That means he did way better against the clones than her.

His speed is better than her strenght because not anybody can take a karate chop of Ei and live. Not everybody can tank a Chidori Katana to the neck and live. Tsunade would've been killed by that, with all her strenght or anything.

Ei is a tank, with a piercing attack and an pretty good speed. Strenght is meaningless if your opponent can react to you, blindside you or turn you to dust with fire. In Sasuke's case, Tsunade would've died, while Ei would've fared better.

If a one touch is all that you need to see to jump somebody in your tier. Go add Shino to the high-kage tier. Because he needs one touch only to kill somebody.

Being more resilient also doesn't mean she is above somebody either. Because she i more resilient than Nagato. But go ahead and put her to fight him. However, i said she is better than Ei in some areas, while Ei is better than her in others. But combat-wise, Ei is generally above. She only trumps him thanks to her ability with support. Wich is arguably, considering Ei can be quite deadly with the right support, such a genjutsu user somebody like Mei.



Likes boss said:


> You seem to forget that not only did Tsunade not have KATSUYU against the sussano clones, but she had to waste a portion of her chakra for healing and chakra boosting the Kage •.



Despite other people beliefs, Katsuyu the great wouldn't done a thing to Madara. Mokuton would've trolled the slug horribly. And wouldn't have assisted in anything, unless Madara let her.

Giving chakra wouldn't have changed the outcome other than probably making her last a bit longer with Byakugo. If she did, Ei wouldn't have been distracted and worried about her falling to the floor, and wouldn't have been caught.

Ei clearly did better against the 5 Susano'o clones, wich is the point i made. And he certainly does better against certain opponents than Tsunade. Such as Kisame, Itachi/Sasuke, and even MS Kakashi with Kamui. Or the same strongest Kage of this list, Onoki.


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## Veracity (Jun 12, 2015)

@lost

Umm yeah no not at all. Katusyu would have helped tremendously against Sussano clones.  They could have been used for communication( to relay information back and forth negating blindside attacks), they could have been used as distractions( I mean they are immune to physical damage), they could have been used to help meatshield Tsuande( mini Katsuyu can tank CST) and the acid they spit could soften Sussano allowing for Tsunade to punch right through.

Honestly Tsuande being distracted didn't even change anything about her fight. She still succeeded in incapacitating the Sussano clones long enough for her to pull the chakra blades out her stomach( and she clearly had a lot more chakra seeing as she boosted Jinton to astronomical sizes), so yes more chakra would have helped her performance. Ay would have prolly been distracted by another KAGE anyway seeing as Gaara and Mei were being ragdolled around the battlefield, he chose to focus on tsuande as she was close to him. 

He does better against certain opponents clearly, but that also goes for Tsuande too. And Tsuande with Katsuyu  + added chakra probably would hash faired better than AY in that fight, and that's my point.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @lost
> 
> Umm yeah no not at all. Katusyu would have helped tremendously against Sussano clones.  They could have been used for communication( to relay information back and forth negating blindside attacks), they could have been used as distractions( I mean they are immune to physical damage), they could have been used to help meatshield Tsuande( mini Katsuyu can tank CST) and the acid they spit could soften Sussano allowing for Tsunade to punch right through.
> 
> ...



Katsuyu didn't actually tank CST, but she did took a powerful hit, that's for sure. (I had a longer stuff written, but somehow it got deleted. So i will resume:

The slug wouldn't have bothered the Susano'os because her only offense would be tanked, worse, if that acid fell on their blades, it would be worse.  Also, dividing and getting in the way would only be ignored by them. They are capable enough to force Ei to block (unless Ei blocked on purpose to talk to Tsunade) and to blindside Gaara and attack from different angles. They would probably dodge/push/ignore Katsuyu and keep rampaging against their enemy. And if Katsuyu wrapped on someone to heal them, nothing stops them from stabbing the slug and the one they are healing.

I do agree that she does better than Ei against certain opponents. Just pointing out that Ei does, too. So, at best, both should be tied, unless we get more technical and began to describe how each would perfom against Kage levels and how much teamwork they can get.

That would be too much. But Ei can be a deadly man even teaming up with Kurenai. Genjutsu + Karate chop. With Nagato: BT / Karate chop. Backpack Nagato and Soul Rip, etc.

But yes, i never said he does better than her in all areas.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Only Rasa relies on that. Gaara and Sasori have smaller bodies of sand that they control that Onoki likely won't be getting close to.


Are you saying being limited to only the Sand/Iron they carry with them, doesn't make any fight much more difficult?



> His clones get popped by drizzle before they get anywhere near.


He's not always using drizzle and drizzle can be blocked by DotonJutsu



> The Second Mizukage would probably opt against doing that when fighting Onoki because of the weight changing thing. That is something he didn't have to worry about versus Gaara.


Does he even know Onoki can turn things to stone through weight alteration?



> Even if the clone did attack Onoki up close, how would he weigh it down if it's running a water blade through him?


It's called a feint, it hits a clone while the real Onoki or another clone weighs it down.



> Itachi & Sasuke wouldn't let Onoki near Susano'o.


Sorry, but if Onoki can pull it off against 5 Legged EMS-Susano'o, i'm not inclined to believe Itachi and Sasuke w/ no knowledge can avoid it consistently.




> It may work on some of the Sannin's summons, but not their best ones. The Toad Sages can protect themselves, Orochimaru can randomly pop out of his hydra and defend it with the diamond cutter if need be, and Katsuyu can split up. Naruto & Sasuke really don't summon often (or need to).


I didn't say it counters all these characters moves, I said it can counter some of their strongest weapons. The Boss Summons are some of these characters stronger techniques. Like wise the same is true for Orochimaru's Hydra. Katsuya splitting would also be meaningless as all of them are weighted down. Simply put in all of these matches weight control is a useful defense.



> Sasori's puppets can poison Onoki if he tires to get close and casually pop any close with their weaponry, and Orochimaru & Kabuto Edo Tensei can defend themselves. Tobirama's can explode.


This is silly. Not every Sasori puppet has the necessary traps or speed to scratch Onoki. Sasori's puppets are dangerous in numbers or through uses of their past Jutsu, like Sandaime-Kazekage's Satetsu. It's not like any puppet will out match Onoki in CQC.



> Killer B could literally Hachimaki Onoki out of the air when he tried to get close and then go on to obliterate him with Bijudama while he's down.


Hachimaki wind up requires a bit of time and B and Onoki is very quick to use weight control, so I doubt B is pulling off Hachimaki in time to stop Onoki in most situations.



> The Kage can't use Gennin jutsu like Shunshin or the respective elemental jutsu from their villages because they haven't shown it, and thus it's "made up......"


Please rocky. Iwabunshin is not a Genin Jutsu, nether would be any other type of elemental bushin. I also never said they couldn't use basic Shunshin, but so can Onoki, so that is not making up any ground for them in this discussion.



> Yeah, what was I thinking? Trollkage totally can't flicker or use a water wall even though the mist fodder could. Mu, the Kage of the Village Hidden by Rock, definitely has no rock jutsu that are useful. I'm so silly.


I'm sure they can use entry level elemental Jutsu, based on their DB entries alone. However Onoki can to and more diversely than most of them, so what is the point of this, other than you account for shit for them, but not Onoki.



> Oh, and what's that bull crap about Mu being objectively inferior to Onoki in terms of Jinton and Flight? Onoki & Mu fought, and I noticed no difference. Even after Onoki remotivated himself, his Jinton didn't increase in scale until Tsunade boosted it, and Onoki will hardly ever be as motivated as he was against Madara when fighting someone else.


Where are Mu's flight speed feats that match Onoki's. Where are his Jinton feats that match Onoki's one against flower tree world.



> No, Jinton is not more useful against an Ougi then just getting out of the way or tanking it. Why don't you give me some examples of which Jutsu Jinton is more effective against.
> 
> Even the AoE technique Jinton faced in cannon still put him to sleep initially. If Madara wanted, he couldn't have jumped down there and finished Onoki while he was dreaming about the stone will.


So your ask for an example, proceed to immediately provide yourself with a blatant one and than offer a weak excuse to ignore it. So why should I even bother Rocky


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Ei is easily the strongest one.



This guy and LostSelf are the only ones who know what they're talking about.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 12, 2015)

Tsunade>Onoki>Gaara>Ei>Mei


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## Veracity (Jun 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Katsuyu didn't actually tank CST, but she did took a powerful hit, that's for sure. (I had a longer stuff written, but somehow it got deleted. So i will resume:
> 
> The slug wouldn't have bothered the Susano'os because her only offense would be tanked, worse, if that acid fell on their blades, it would be worse.  Also, dividing and getting in the way would only be ignored by them. They are capable enough to force Ei to block (unless Ei blocked on purpose to talk to Tsunade) and to blindside Gaara and attack from different angles. They would probably dodge/push/ignore Katsuyu and keep rampaging against their enemy. And if Katsuyu wrapped on someone to heal them, nothing stops them from stabbing the slug and the one they are healing.
> 
> ...



She took a massive portion of CST( in her smallest form) and didn't receive any damage. Not a little damage, but none at all. It's also written in the DB that physical attacks don't effect her, so she's super helpful regardless of how much damage you think she really can take.

Why would Katsuyu aim at the sword ..? She has massive numbers over the Sussano clones and can choose to only shoot acid if she blindsides them. The acid melts right through stone and is hyped to kill Oro, so that mixed with a Tsunade punch( she was also capable of getting a Sussanos blindspot) = massive amounts of damage.

Dividing wouldn't be ignored by them at all. I think you are really underestimating Katsuyu here. A Sussano clone goes for a sword strike and hits a slug instead saving Tsuande the damage and chakra from the attack. If that happens multiple times then that greatly increases Tsuandes chances of outlasting Ay in a battle between the clones. Then there's the fact that Katsuyu can relay information between its units and Tsuande. Chances are, the Sussano clones did most of their damage on Tsuande via blindside attack( 5 vs 1?). With Katsuyu on the floor, the Chance of Tsuande being blindside attacked is drastically lowered which clearly helps her. Then there's the fact that if Katsuyu is attached to Tsuande, the clones have to attack specific spots in her body to actually deal damage, which again increases her performance.

But yeah, If Tsuande is = to Ay in combat, than she is clearly > to him overall. Ay may have good support , but nothing comes close to top tier healing + chakra boosting + Katsuyu.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> All of them lost. Tsunade received more hits than him. And he only was captured because he was distracted. That means he did way better against the clones than her.
> 
> His speed is better than her strenght because not anybody can take a karate chop of Ei and live. Not everybody can tank a Chidori Katana to the neck and live. Tsunade would've been killed by that, with all her strenght or anything.




 Muu took A karate chop and received no damage. kishi clearly disagrees with your fan fic here

however tsunade punched madara and blew a hole in him. just saying 

A hit has nothing to do or in common with a chidori katana. Muu cannot tank a chidori katana, he tanked A karate chop just fine 



> Ei is a tank, with a piercing attack and an pretty good speed. Strenght is meaningless if your opponent can react to you, blindside you or turn you to dust with fire. In Sasuke's case, Tsunade would've died, while Ei would've fared better


.

show me 1 piercing attack in his DB entry please. ill wait, kishi disagrees firmly with you on this 

Muu gets hit, no piercing involved, Madara no piercing involved, jugo got his back hit no piercing involved where does this piercing fan fic come from? yes he made ration sharp to cut his hand however have u seen him do that in a fight while with his cloak active? the guy doesn't fight like that, its boring having to say this everytime



> If a one touch is all that you need to see to jump somebody in your tier. Go add Shino to the high-kage tier. Because he needs one touch only to kill somebody.



tsunade can take her enemies hits and counter shino cant. 



> Being more resilient also doesn't mean she is above somebody either. Because she i more resilient than Nagato. But go ahead and put her to fight him. However, i said she is better than Ei in some areas, while Ei is better than her in others. But combat-wise, Ei is generally above. She only trumps him thanks to her ability with support. Wich is arguably, considering Ei can be quite deadly with the right support, such a genjutsu user somebody like Mei.



nagato is uzumaki no proof she is more resilient. nice point though 



> Despite other people beliefs, Katsuyu the great wouldn't done a thing to Madara. Mokuton would've trolled the slug horribly. And wouldn't have assisted in anything, unless Madara let her.




never thought it could either 



> Giving chakra wouldn't have changed the outcome other than probably making her last a bit longer with Byakugo. If she did, Ei wouldn't have been distracted and worried about her falling to the floor, and wouldn't have been caught.



agreed. however A wasn't even shown counter attacking. he probably was just running around trying not to get hit 



> Ei clearly did better against the 5 Susano'o clones, wich is the point i made. And he certainly does better against certain opponents than Tsunade. Such as Kisame, Itachi/Sasuke, and even MS Kakashi with Kamui. Or the same strongest Kage of this list, Onoki.



yet kishi didn't bother to show any 1 panel with him actually counter attacking? really?


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## Rocky (Jun 12, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Are you saying being limited to only the Sand/Iron they carry with them, doesn't make any fight much more difficult?



Not really. Maybe for Gaara, but not Sasori. 

So it's pretty great defense against Kisame & Gaara so far.



Turrin said:


> He's not always using drizzle and drizzle can be blocked by DotonJutsu



So when Onoki flies over to Sasori's puppet in an attempt to weigh it down, and Sasori or Gaara respond by using drizzle at nigh-point blank range, he's going to stop on a dime and manage to get of a Doton technique to block? 

Kay.



Turrin said:


> Does he even know Onoki can turn things to stone through weight alteration?



That would be how he lost his clam, so yes.



Turrin said:


> Sorry, but if Onoki can pull it off against 5 Legged EMS-Susano'o, i'm not inclined to believe Itachi and Sasuke w/ no knowledge can avoid it consistently.



Five Wood Clones, which likely don't pose as much of a threat as even one serious Susano'o. Do you think Mei would have been able to fight an extended battle against even one Stage 3 Susano'o from real Madara, let alone five?

Even if old Onoki somehow dodges fucking Susano'o in close combat from Sharingan Itachi or Sasuke, he's still vulnerable to being pegged by Amaterasu once he gets near the construct. Sasuke can completely shut weight control down by throwing up a fire shield too.



Turrin said:


> I didn't say it counters all these characters moves, I said it can counter some of their strongest weapons.



Well then remove Naruto and Sasuke because they're summons aren't even close to their strongest techniques. It may help against the Sannin _*if*_ Onoki manages to get close enough without being hit by the respective Sannin or summon itself, but their best offenses don't come from Bunta, Katsuyu, or Manda anyway. 

Weight control is still circumstantial. It fails hard against anything speedy and small.



Turrin said:


> This is silly. Not every Sasori puppet has the necessary traps or speed to scratch Onoki.



The Kazekage & Hiruko do, and the 100 puppets are effective because of their numbers.



Turrin said:


> Hachimaki wind up requires a bit of time and B and Onoki is very quick to use weight control, so I doubt B is pulling off Hachimaki in time to stop Onoki in most situations.



Just stop. Onoki isn't blitzing B with weight control before he tornado ragdolls him and nukes. The only "wind up" there is is B wrapping his tails around himself, which takes like one second. 



Turrin said:


> Please rocky. Iwabunshin is not a Genin Jutsu, nether would be any other type of elemental bushin. I also never said they couldn't use basic Shunshin, but so can Onoki, so that is not making up any ground for them in this discussion.



My bad, they're Chunin level.

And can Onoki even walk well? I thought he was useless on the ground. I don't see him being capable of Shunshin anymore.



Turrin said:


> However Onoki can to and more diversely than most of them



Based on what? Nothing Onoki did Doton-wise was extraordinary. 



Turrin said:


> Where are Mu's flight speed feats that match Onoki's. Where are his Jinton feats that match Onoki's one against flower tree world.



Mu's only notable flight speed feat is evading KCM Naruto's Rasengan. Why do you think he's slower?

Onoki's Jinton on the forest was no different than his other beam varients. He carved them out.





Turrin said:


> So your ask for an example, proceed to immediately provide yourself with a blatant one and than offer a weak excuse to ignore it. So why should I even bother Rocky



If you only have one bad example of how "useful" Onoki's Jinton is on area of effect attacks, then you _shouldn't_ bother. You shouldn't bother because your argument isn't good.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 12, 2015)

I'm sorry for asking since I haven't been following the thread. But what is the argument involving Onoki's lesser jutsu? Why do any of them matter?

Like, the only jutsu Onoki needs to win a battle is his oversized laser-Jinton, which will disintegrate anybody not named Madara or Nagato (maybe Kisame if you have a good opinion of Daikodan). It's a continuous disintegration beam so it functions as both offense and defense, and it's got a huge range so Onoki himself is never at risk. Like...why does his heavy-weight jutsu justify its own argument? Onoki doesn't need that shit.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> As for Sasori's poison and Tsunade, her regeneration works via rapid cellular growth from a chakra-surge. You know what other group of people heal in a similar manner? Jinchuriki. Who Sasori hunted.​



And? Poison is but one aspect of Sasori's arsenal, and being tasked with capturing somebody doesn't entail that every one of your abilities must counter every one of theirs. It is entirely possible for him to capture a Jinchūriki without relying on his poison.

He'd probably want to avoid that method anyway if he could, considering that the poison _kills_ in 2 maybe 3 days and it takes at least 3 to extract a Tailed Beast. I mean that's cuttin' it _awful_ close there.

Even then, I'm not even sure most of the Jinchūriki are particularly in tune with their Bijū, and while in base the healing factor isn't even always present- that's why Kabuto was able to stop Kurama from healing Naruto by _preventing him from even providing Naruto with the Chakra-nourishment in the first place_. Even for some of the ones that might be, V1  and V2 harm the user for their duration and the recovery process that follows afterwards is slow in comparison to the normal rate _(1)_ _(2)_ _(3)_ _(4)_, so it's highly likely that a regeneration as complete as Sōzō Saisei's isn't immediately possible, if the Chakra-nourishment is even as extensive in its effects as the ultimate regeneration Jutsu to begin with, which I question.



> She doesn't need to leave the mist to shoot shit at Gamabuta.



If it's cast over such a large area-of-effect that Gamabunta's sheer size and own area-of-effect wouldn't force her out of it to avoid getting crushed, then her Yoton wouldn't even reach him from inside of it, and her Suiton dragons can tanked regardless.



> And she has bigger suitons than Gamabuta.



That's of little consequence when her Suitons have not shown to either pack as _much_ _force_ or to be able to withstand such force.

It does her no good to erect a wider water wall if the incoming attack is simply going to tear through it anyway.



> And in any case, Gamabuta is not a measure Minato needs for Tsunade.
> 
> Which is my point.



You're just moving the goalposts now.

Your point was originally supposed to be that Minato was a ninja Tsunade would lose to that Mei wouldn't, not one that wouldn't use Gamabunta against Tsunade (very bad idea for him to try it anyway) but would against Mei. If Mei loses you have no point.


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## Sansa (Jun 12, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Komū no Jutsu is not as hard to see in as Kirigakure no Jutsu and does not melt at such a speed that it would injure a gigantic toad being dropped onto it before it landed and crushed whoever was beneath it.


Komu instantly melts Susano'o

How would it not melt Gamabunta as soon he enters it 



Also, Raikage has like 0 tankability
He can't take hits and relies on blitzing people, you like to say he'll blitz Mei before she can react, but I think that's just overhype.

Mei performs hand seals very quickly and can use Kirigakure before he can try to blitz

If Mei sets up mist, what exactly is Raikage going to do if he can't see her to hit her but get hit?

It's not like she can't use Taijutsu either, all this talk of Ay one shotting Mei before she can do anything is a stretch imo.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

Choa said:


> Komu instantly melts Susano'o
> 
> How would it not melt Gamabunta as soon he enters it
> 
> ...





did u miss the part where he took a chidori to the chest 

took mabui tech in base

and took a chidori sword to the back and didn't flinch ?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 12, 2015)

Onoki is the strongest overall tho a fight between him and A can go either way depending on the starting distance.

A would be the next strongest in battle tho overall he kinda sucks(can't do many things).

Tsunade or gaara(they both carry different types of useful support tho i think tsunade edge him out in that department) would be the next strongest overall though they both would lose to A in battle.

Mei is the weakest i am sure she would lose to all the other kages in battle based on feats. She got more utility than A tho so she beats him there.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 12, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Onoki is the strongest overall tho a fight between him and A can go either way depending on the starting distance.
> 
> A would be the next strongest in battle tho overall he kinda sucks(can't do many things).
> 
> ...



People forget Ohnoki is old and has unpredictable back problems which randomly occur during battle, he definitely is not the strongest, not in his old age. 

Mei is definitely not the weakest, nor can she defeat Ei, that's a joke, she can't even react to his speed.

Tsuande cannot beat Mei either. Mei is a medium to long ranged fighter. Tsuande is strictly close ranged. Mei can produce large masses of water sports, while simultaneously producing giant water dragons. Same techniques that pushed back madaras fire style and covered madara said susanoo, Tsuande can never get close to her. Mei can use hidden mist completely remove Tsunades vision. Then she can mix in her corrosive mist, Tsunades flesh will burn.

Ei is definitely the strongest here.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> People forget Ohnoki is old and has unpredictable back problems which randomly occur during battle, he definitely is not the strongest, not in his old age.
> 
> Mei is definitely not the weakest, nor can she defeat Ei, that's a joke, she can't even react to his speed.
> 
> ...



quick question if sakura through tsunade training can avoid satetsu which is horribly faster than Mei entire arsenal why cant tsunade who has trained in evasion avoid Mei arsenal and then kill her quickly in cqc. she is a close range fighter however 1 who specializes in it

u seen a close range fighter in this manga not get close to their enemy during battle?

yes tsunade flesh will burn in acid mist, too bad tsunade flesh will keep healing. u know who wont heal or get up from the slightest hit from tsunade? Mei

tsunade hits her once anywhere and she is down for the count 

Mei however cant 1 shot tsunade. the odds are with tsunade. 

Granted Mei can blind tsunade in battle with hidden mist. so this got some potential. however katsuyu can turn into goo and flood the battlefield. So tsunade would know exactly where she is

kishi messed up though. tsunade should really have some chakra stealing abilities as well. seeing that she can transfer chakra....ah my fan fic mind


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 12, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> nor can she defeat Ei, that's a joke, she can't even react to his speed.


It is but i never said that. My post claimed she beats him when it comes to having more options in combat.



> Tsuande cannot beat Mei either. Mei is a medium to long ranged fighter. Tsuande is strictly close ranged. Mei can produce large masses of water sports, while simultaneously producing giant water dragons. Same techniques that pushed back madaras fire style and covered madara said susanoo, Tsuande can never get close to her. Mei can use hidden mist completely remove Tsunades vision. Then she can mix in her corrosive mist, Tsunades flesh will burn.


Those water techs will not kill tsunade with her regen they don't got the feats to imply this not to mention katsuyu can troll them. Tsunade has shown better reaction feats than mei and mei doesn't have any blistering speed feats that would make me believe "tsunade will never touch her". Mei becomes blind as well so it's not a GG. That mist does not have instant killing power as seen against sasuke and katsuyu can potentially troll it.



> Ei is definitely the strongest here.


Possibly if you put onoki in close quarters of A at the start and claim he has back problems everytime they battle. This is just putting aside onoki can do more things in battle.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Muu took A karate chop and received no damage. kishi clearly disagrees with your fan fic here
> 
> however tsunade punched madara and blew a hole in him. just saying
> 
> A hit has nothing to do or in common with a chidori katana. Muu cannot tank a chidori katana, he tanked A karate chop just fine



.Then i suppose cutting Hachibi's horn means nothing then. Mu is more durable than Hachibi and more durable than Ei, because Ei cut his own arm without being amplified, and couldn't cut Mu. Sarcasm, yes.



> show me 1 piercing attack in his DB entry please. ill wait, kishi disagrees firmly with you on this



So are you saying Ei can cut his own arm, yet, cannot stab or cut Tsunade or a Shinobi of comparable durability? Because, you know, Ei is more durable than her and cut his own arm with ease. If he can cut his arm with ease, he can cut anybody less durable than him _if he so desires_



> Muu gets hit, no piercing involved, Madara no piercing involved, jugo got his back hit no piercing involved where does this piercing fan fic come from? yes he made ration sharp to cut his hand however have u seen him do that in a fight while with his cloak active? the guy doesn't fight like that, its boring having to say this everytime



Because he punched, maybe, instead of trying to pierce? This is common sense. Even when the third Raikage, who has nukite, changes to punch, that other guy says he wants to knock out Naruto. A punch, even covered in raiton, doesn't cut.



> tsunade can take her enemies hits and counter shino cant.




Then, having the ability to kill somebody with a touch doesn't make you top tier. 




> agreed. however A wasn't even shown counter attacking. he probably was just running around trying not to get hit
> 
> yet kishi didn't bother to show any 1 panel with him actually counter attacking? really?



They were doing nothing. One was avoiding being hit, one was sacrificing the body, abusing a healing jutsu to be able to hit. But Tsunade's punches weren't getting the job done. Against that kind of opponent, who did better the one that lasted longer, Ei did better. Because even if he didn't damage them, Tsunade prolly didn't either. And if she did, was at the cost of being stabbed badly.


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## LostSelf (Jun 12, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> She took a massive portion of CST( in her smallest form) and didn't receive any damage. Not a little damage, but none at all. It's also written in the DB that physical attacks don't effect her, so she's super helpful regardless of how much damage you think she really can take.
> 
> Why would Katsuyu aim at the sword ..? She has massive numbers over the Sussano clones and can choose to only shoot acid if she blindsides them. The acid melts right through stone and is hyped to kill Oro, so that mixed with a Tsunade punch( she was also capable of getting a Sussanos blindspot) = massive amounts of damage.
> 
> ...



Second time it eliminates what i type!!! Dammit. It's my fault, though.

She didn't survive CST. Tsunade took that CST and lived without any injury that might affect her. She only was affected by the chakra she spent healing. Tsunade, as durable as she might be, wouldn't take a direct CST and live without Byakugo. CST hit the village and created a hole, wich is seen when the village is shown from afar. The aftermath hit everybody.

I didn't mean she will spit acid on the sword. I meant "if acid gets on the sword". She cannot physically stop them, the Susano'o's are agil enough, therefore they can evade the slug, wich, as slug as it is, wouldn't be too fast. She can take physical damage, that's for sure, but she can be stabbed. And there the Susano'os can hit anybody inside her. I doubt her acid can do much to Susano'o too. Orochimaru probably said that to relax her, considering a cheaper version of himself could survive Amaterasu, i doubt it can help much.

Melting a rock is not enough. They are durable enough to sustain acid-mist or lava release, also durable enough to take Tsunade's punches, and who knows if Amaterasu, too.  And considering they regenerate...

Also,  i don't see, or can't see, Tsunade fighting in tandem with Katsuyu, miniclones spitting acid and Tsunade attacking. Friendly fire still is there, and Katsuyu cannot be fast enough to intercept a strike in time. Tsunade could last more, letting Katsuyu fight and not her, or alterning attacks, but aside from that, Katsuyu shouldn't be much more of an obstacle that they should effectively avoid.

There's a reason why she didn't use it. I doubt Kishi sees Katsuyu as the slug is seen here. But that's just an opinion.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not really. Maybe for Gaara, but not Sasori.
> 
> So it's pretty great defense against Kisame & Gaara so far.
> .


I'd like to know why it isn't good against Sandaime-Kazekage, when techniques like Kessho and Kaihou expose it to being touched and heavy weighted. 



> So when Onoki flies over to Sasori's puppet in an attempt to weigh it down, and Sasori or Gaara respond by using drizzle at nigh-point blank range, he's going to stop on a dime and manage to get of a Doton technique to block?


Onoki should know that a simple straight forward charge isn't going to work, and use clones or other distractions to get at the puppet. And when Sasori uses AOE Techniques like Kaihou and Kesshou Onoki can tough the Iron than.



> That would be how he lost his clam, so yes.


Mizukage gets knowledge from when he's an Edo. Really Fair.



> Five Wood Clones, which likely don't pose as much of a threat as even one serious Susano'o. Do you think Mei would have been able to fight an extended battle against even one Stage 3 Susano'o from real Madara, let alone five?


Were not talking about Madara, were talking about Itachi and Sasuke. And yes I think 5 Susano'o are at least around equal to their MS Susano'o. As far as Mei goes she was losing and about to die, so all your basically asking is can Mei survive a bit against their Susano'o, and the answer to that is yes, as her LOS blockers can make it difficult for them to land blows on her.



> Even if old Onoki somehow dodges fucking Susano'o in close combat from Sharingan Itachi or Sasuke, he's still vulnerable to being pegged by Amaterasu once he gets near the construct. Sasuke can completely shut weight control down by throwing up a fire shield too.


We're talking about it's ability to defend Susano'o not Amaterasu, so bringing that up is pointless to the conversation. 



> Well then remove Naruto and Sasuke because they're summons aren't even close to their strongest techniques.


Manda and Boss Toads are indeed some of Naruto and Sasuke stronger techniques as of  their SM and Hebi versions. Are they their thee strongest technique, not but countering them is a major thing.



> t may help against the Sannin if Onoki manages to get close enough without being hit by the respective Sannin or summon itself, but their best offenses don't come from Bunta, Katsuyu, or Manda anyway.


I don't know how you can pretend that doing away with the Sannin's Boss Summons and Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi wouldn't be a huge plus agains them. I really don't.



> Weight control is still circumstantial. It fails hard against anything speedy and small.


Literally every technique is circumstantial, so that is a null point. Weight Control is much more effective against a variety of opponents than your giving it credit for is what counts here.



> The Kazekage & Hiruko do, and the 100 puppets are effective because of their numbers.


I really doubt Hiroku does, Kazekage with Iron-Sand, but w/o not so much, and not his true body ether. 100 Puppets could scratch him, but it's equally as risky that he'd or one of his clones would touch one before they scratched Onoki or at the same time.

Overall weight control is extremely dangerous for Sasori at every juncture of the fight.



> Just stop. Onoki isn't blitzing B with weight control before he tornado ragdolls him and nukes. The only "wind up" there is is B wrapping his tails around himself, which takes like one second.


No it's not, it takes time for B to go full Hachibi, than he needs to wind up. Hence it taking multiple pages for B to complete the attack:
and dodged with ease.
and dodged with ease.
and dodged with ease.

Given how large Hachibi's body is, B would have to be quite a large distance away from Onoki for him to pull off Hachimaki before Onoki could reach him and touch him. And that's assuming B immediately starts with Hachimaki.



> My bad, they're Chunin level.And can Onoki even walk well? I thought he was useless on the ground. I don't see him being capable of Shunshin anymore.


What weak ass arguments, I won't even bother with this trolling shit.



> Based on what? Nothing Onoki did Doton-wise was extraordinary.


So your trying to compare fodder level elemental techniques for what Onoki can do with Doton. What a desperate troll.  Again I won't bother with this shit.



> Mu's only notable flight speed feat is evading KCM Naruto's Rasengan. Why do you think he's slower?


Straw-Man. Never said he was slow, I said he wasn't as fast as Onoki who was dancing through the sky with Deidara.



> Onoki's Jinton on the forest was no different than his other beam varients. He carved them out


It's different in scope and size. You can visible see the difference. In the Madara scene even when Onoki begins releasing it's fills the entire panel and is much bigger than Onoki's body. In the other panel it's bigger than Onoki's body, but only slightly:

and dodged with ease.
and dodged with ease.



> If you only have one bad example of how "useful" Onoki's Jinton is on area of effect attacks, then you shouldn't bother. You shouldn't bother because your argument isn't good.


It's not a bad example it directly shows him out performing the other Gokage in defense due to Jinton. 

And there are plenty of other examples as well, as I've already explained it can overcome nearly any attack it's used against due to it's atomizing property making it a great offense and defense. Pretty much any ranged attack will be stopped in it's tracks by Jinton and even most close range attacks can be stopped by Jinton cube. Considering the amount of techniques that can be stopped by Jinton it's better to list the ones that can't be.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2015)

> LostSelf said:
> 
> 
> > .Then i suppose cutting Hachibi's horn means nothing then. Mu is more durable than Hachibi and more durable than Ei, because Ei cut his own arm without being amplified, and couldn't cut Mu. Sarcasm, yes.
> ...


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