# CQC Fight 09: Itachi vs Madara



## Kyu (Sep 3, 2015)

More or less an Uchiha version of my Minato versus Hashirama thread.

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout
*Mindset:* BL
*Distance:* 3 meters
*Intel:* Manga
*Stipulations:*

Itachi has Sasuke's kusanagi/Madara has a kusarigama(scythe n' chain)
No ninjutsu, genjutsu, or ocular powers of any kind other than 3T Sharingan pseudo precog
Itachi is a healthy adult/Madara is in his prime(VotE)

*Scenario 2:* Itachi is allowed to use shadow clones/Madara can use his Gunbai


Who walks away victorious?


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 3, 2015)

Madara nigh-blitzed Sage Naruto from a ten-meter distance.

And had enough strength to send him flying.

And with a Sage Mode boost, sent nine Bijū sprawling with just physical attacks.

Itachi gets ragdolled.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 3, 2015)

With those hashi cells he has naturally boosted vitality.

I don't recall his healing ability being associated with Ninjutsu, it may yet be natural. 

Or maybe Madara did peg it as medical ninjutsu..

Either way he has superior feats, Naruto outright stated he has better close quarter movement and reactions in SM than in KCM, and Madara bumrushed the shit out of him and struck the herculean monster (one of the physically strongest ninja in the manga) that is SM Naruto off his feet, while blind.

Giving him 3-toma and multiple weapons on top of that seals the deal for me, Madara low-diff.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 3, 2015)

I suspect Itachi would be slightly faster, given Edo Itachi seemed more of a  fighter. I'd also give Itachi the edge in throwing weapons. Strength, durability, and stamina go to Madara.

In the first scenario, I see Itachi being overwhelmed. Madara's just too ferocious a fighter and Itachi's going to tire faster. In the second scenario, a clone feint would let Itachi take Madara from a blindspot.​


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## Ersa (Sep 3, 2015)

Itachi has arguably better reflexes and speed but Madara holds the advantage in almost every other category. So barring a lucky kunai tag (Hebi Sasuke fight) I really see Madara taking this more often then not.


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## thechickensage (Sep 3, 2015)

Madara seems like a tier above Itachi...and why are you two (Strategoob/Ersatz) saying that he's faster or has better reaction speed?


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## Ersa (Sep 4, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Madara seems like a tier above Itachi...and why are you two (Strategoob/Ersatz) saying that he's faster or has better reaction speed?


Itachi showed reflexes superior to Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke. Honestly apart from his SM/Ten Tails feats Madara has never displayed reflexes that impressive. I would peg him about equal to that EMS Sasuke honestly or maybe  a bit better. 

As for speed, Madara has never struck me as particularly nimble while Itachi has proven to be too fast for the likes of Killer B although KCM Naruto easily reacted to him.

Either way I don't see it mattering as Madara holds advantages in other areas that will allow him to win most of the time barring a lucky kunai barrage from a blindspot.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 4, 2015)

He got killed by Kabuto 3 times in that battle. 

Please don't tell us you're bringing feats from that fight in order to *support* Itachi's case?



> *I suspect Itachi would be slightly faster*, given Edo Itachi seemed more of a  fighter. I'd also give Itachi the edge in throwing weapons. Strength, durability, and stamina go to Madara.


Why wouldn't you? You're an Itachi fanboy. 



In one corner we have a weaker version of Madara reacting to V2 Ei without knowledge and with clouded vision

In another corner we have SM Kabuto slicing Edo Itachi in half without reaction after appearing in front of his eyes

I'm going to go ahead and say I suspect Madara would casually dismantle him in close quarters.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 4, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> In one corner we have a weaker version of Madara reacting to V2 Ei without knowledge and with clouded vision



Bee did the same thing to v2 A, but not to Itachi's flicker. 



DaVizWiz said:


> In another corner we have SM Kabuto slicing Edo Itachi in half without reaction after appearing right in front of him



Itachi didn't react with surprise because he wasn't surprised. 

He baited Kabuto to come close so he could close the loop and end the fight.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Your _mom_'s an Itachi fanboy.
> 
> Bee did the same thing to v2 A, but not to Itachi's flicker.
> 
> ...


Zero logic in your argument.

Luring him in is one thing, being severed in half is another. Absolutely no reason why he would've needed to be severed in half to successfully implement a Genjutsu. 

Itachi was blitzed, stop fucking around Strategoob.

A wasn't in V2 until after he slapped Bee across the landscape.

Prior to that, he was in V1 the entire time. 

How do we know?

Killer Bee's statement "Is he going all out?!" was stated after he slapped his ass across the landscape. He then lit up like a christmas tree, and directly stated he was going to use his fastest punch, alluding to the fact that wasn't at full speed prior to that. 

Itachi isn't even close to Ei's speed. He will be absolutely no challenge for Prime Madara.

All things considered, V1 Ei threw Base Killer Bee into the path of KCM Naruto's shunshin while in mid-air via his tentacle, this dude was reading KCM Naruto's shunshin while in V1 well enough to throw his brother into the path of his shunshin- before Naruto could react. Killer Bee didn't do shit while this was happening either, he was still fucked up from Ei's elbow that he also failed to react to. 

He was shitting all over both of them in V1.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 4, 2015)

Nah, we saw Bee handle v2 (spiky haired) A fine.

He had much more trouble hitting/tracking Itachi.

And Kabuto didn't "blitz" Itachi. He _snuck_ up through the snake.

But Itachi intended for that (lowering Susano'o, finishing Izanami.)

And it certainly worked out.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 4, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Itachi showed reflexes superior to Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke. Honestly apart from his SM/Ten Tails feats Madara has never displayed reflexes that impressive.



There's _reacting to V2 Ay_ when _just pre-occupied with Mei's lava stream_. While using the Rinnegan as opposed to the Sharingan, too.



> As for speed, Madara has never struck me as particularly nimble.



I think the _entire_ _point_ _of_ _all_ _this_ is to establish Madara as a particularly nimble fighter.



> Itachi has proven to be too fast for the likes of Killer B.



Itachi vs Bee had more to do with sneakiness than speed.

Switching with a Kage Bunshin behind the Katon the first time, and the summons getting in the way the second time.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 4, 2015)

> Nah, we saw Bee handle v2 (spiky haired) A fine.


Are you actually suggesting Base Killer Bee can react to V2 Ei's full speed punch?



> He had much more trouble hitting/tracking Itachi.




Raped



> And Kabuto didn't "blitz" Itachi. He _snuck_ up through the snake.


He was right in front of him. If he can't react to SM Kabuto in close quarters, he has no chance against Madara. 



> But Itachi intended for that (lowering Susano'o, finishing Izanami.)


Susano has nothing to do with it.

He couldn't physically react to Kabuto slicing him in half.

Kabuto isn't faster than Ei, whom a weaker version of Madara reacted to while preoccupied by Mei's lava release and with hidden mist active and without prior knowledge that Ei is even fast.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 4, 2015)

Is that what people mean when they say Madara reacted to v2 A?

Because his hair doesn't look spiky there (except for the back, like always.)

Hair against Sasuke.

Hair against Bee.

Hair against Madara.

A also said he could "up" his speed more than that.



DaVizWiz said:


> Are you actually suggesting Base Killer Bee can react to V2 Ei's full speed punch?



I linked it happening, with v2 hair much higher than it was against Madara.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 4, 2015)

Now you're suggesting Ei wasn't using his full speed against Edo Uchiha Madara?

Wow.

You realize he directly stated Madara could guard himself against his speed?

And by "finding a way to up it" he meant that he didn't innately have a way to blitz him?

Until Onoki lightened him.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 4, 2015)

I'm pointing to where A says he's going to up his speed after the first attack.

(And how it doesn't look like v2.)

~

Are you suggesting Onoki didn't use his big Jinton first thing against Madara?

Wow.

Are you suggesting Tsunade didn't use her Yin seal first thing against Madara?

Wow.

Are you suggesting Gaara didn't use the sand under Madara first?

Wow.

Are you suggesting Mei didn't use her best ninjutsu first?

Wow.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 4, 2015)

The spikes on Ay's hair reach higher than his ears, which they don't do when he's only in V1.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm not suggesting anything.
> 
> I'm pointing to where A says he's going to up his speed after the first attack.
> 
> ...


He said he needed to up the speed, not that he could. 

Do you understand what he's implying? He's implying that he doesn't have a way to blitz him himself.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 4, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> The spikes on Ay's hair reach higher than his ears, which they don't do when he's only in V1.



Some ear-ceptions.

A also said he could "up" his speed more than that.

A also said he could "up" his speed more than that.

A also said he could "up" his speed more than that.

A also said he could "up" his speed more than that.

Plus against Madara, immediately after contact, we see A from a straight-on angle and he's in v1. It's possible it deactivated and reset to v1 in that instant, but it didn't look too much like v2 to begin with. In any case, idc about this point, just my opinion. I think Itachi reacts to v2 A just fine.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 4, 2015)

His hair is still higher up (past his ears) in the first page of 563 so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Actually higher, not just at an angle. It can be lower after the hit even if he used V2, as shown against Naruto.

It looks a lot more like the bottom panel of the page with Bee than it does the first (and third) page in that post.

_This_ is more similar to _these_ _instances_ than any picture of V1 Ay in the manga.


Itachi reacting to V2 Ay is another matter, since I posted the feat in response to Ersatz saying Madara never displayed reflexes that impressive.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 4, 2015)

Madara will beast Itachi.  Itachi's clone feints work by being too fast with formation and seals for the opponent to notice or keep track of.  I don't see Madara being unable to keep track of Itachi's movements.  Especially not when he only referred to Sasuke's EMS (Actually Itachi's eyes) as "pretty good" placeholders until he got his back.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 4, 2015)

Where are people getting Itachi is faster than Madara? 

Like, what in the world?


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## Alex Payne (Sep 4, 2015)

Itachi is inferior in every stat except intelligence, kunai throwing and seals. And those won't help him here. 

Second scenario is closer. Assuming Itachi's KBs can explode. Still advantage to Madara.


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## Ersa (Sep 4, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> There's _reacting to V2 Ay_ when _just pre-occupied with Mei's lava stream_. While using the Rinnegan as opposed to the Sharingan, too.


Something which I firmly believe EMS Sasuke could replicate with ease.

Now outperforming an EMS Sasuke? I find that more impressive then reacting to V2 Ei. 



> I think the _entire_ _point_ _of_ _all_ _this_ is to establish Madara as a particularly nimble fighter.


Any Kage worth their salt can be nimble against Chunin fodder.

Itachi had a more impressive feat for example. 



> Itachi vs Bee had more to do with sneakiness than speed.


Possibly but one might wonder why Naruto still managed to react to his speed. Because we know in terms of reflexes Naruto holds the edge there. Plus he needed warnings to consistently keep up.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 4, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Angle can make it deceptive.
> 
> this
> 
> ...


You realize you're basing his speed off of how the author chooses to draw his hair, right?

I mean, that is what you're doing, right?

Ei directly stated Madara could guard against his speed, and he did. 
He guarded against BM Naruto's clone. 
He reacted to FRS.
He directly stated he could outright avoid normal Jinton, this is after he reacted to it while looking in a different direction. 
Madara equaled the shunshin, reaction speed, and close quarter kenjutsu of Hashirama, who was outrunning Susano-plated 100% Kurama [1], and later a TBB that went through 3 Rash gates and still maintained enough speed to cross an ocean in a panel [1] and completely explode off shore before the water that it pushed airborne as a result of it's speed and size could come down. He managed to get enough distance between himself and that attack to summon 3 Rash gates between them, despite how close the attack was to him when it was fired [1]

When revived, he bumrushed SM Naruto forcing him to guard and sent him flying- while blind. He struck Sai and half of his body was no longer in the panel's view while Naruto's arms were still in a guarded position. He struck them both so quickly they were at comparable heights in the air and he was moving faster than the bodies that he struck were actually repelling. Numerous times, ninja are shown slapping each other out of the way because their own physical speed isn't sufficient in crossing the distance quick enough (young Obito slapping Kakashi, RSM Naruto clone slapping him & Naruto to avoid Kaguya's arms), in Madara's case- he moves faster than the speed at which individuals are repelled from his strength. 

Naruto said he was better with reactions and close quarter combat in Sage Mode compared to KCM.

How is Itachi going to fare better against 3-toma armed Madara when SM Naruto got slapped across the landscape by a blind unarmed Madara?


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## FlamingRain (Sep 4, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Something which I firmly believe EMS Sasuke could replicate with ease.



Madara wasn't even using his EMS, though.

But I was just pointing out that Madara has, in fact, actually displayed impressive reflexes.



> Any Kage worth their salt can be nimble against Chunin fodder.



Gaara is not Chūnin fodder. Those soldiers Madara was flying through could have been Jōnin for all we know. They're the ones that managed to not die against the Edo Kage, after all.



> Itachi had a more impressive feat for example.



You're comparing three people to dozens. How is that more impressive?



> Possibly but one might wonder why Naruto still managed to react to his speed. Because we know in terms of reflexes Naruto holds the edge there. Plus he needed warnings to consistently keep up.



Naruto is a sensor, and so would catch on to Itachi's tactics sooner.


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## Stermor (Sep 4, 2015)

itachi couldn't do anything to kcm naruto.. who was totally casual in the fight.. which is just a bit. supoerior to v2 e.. 


madara actually just used woodclones to beat v2 e

this is ofcourse discounting the shit tons of even better feats madara got later. 

madara is superior in everything to itachi..


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Nah, we saw Bee handle v2 (spiky haired) A fine.
> 
> He had much more trouble hitting/tracking Itachi.
> 
> ...



There is one small problem with that - Ei used V2 in order to boost his Lariat power, to show Bee that his Lariat is superior. Bee never handled V2 Shunshin - they just rushed at each other to see who's Lariat is stronger.

As for the thread, Itachi has nothing on Madara. As i said multiple times - even if Itachi has all of his arsenal, he wont be able to beat EMS prime alive Madara restricted to only using Shunshin, Sharingan precognition, speed and taijutsu prowess. I even created a whole thread not long ago, were i proved that.

The KCM Naruto Itachi fought never used his top Shunshin, because of active shadow clones. And SM Naruto during the war had faster reaction speed and CQC speed compared to that of KCM Naruto, not only due to Naruto's statement, but also due to KCM Naruto's clone performance against Third Raikage, whom SM Naruto's clone countered in one try, when KCM Naruto's clone hit him in 3'd try.

And blind alive Madara fodder-rushed SM Naruto easily. Plus, as a slower Edo, he countered V2 Ei's speed.

Itachi has no feats on that magnitude. Itachi dies in CQC.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 5, 2015)

the SM feat was done by revived madz with hashi juice, doesn't apply to VoTE madz.

madara still snaps him like a twig tho.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 5, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> the SM feat was done by revived madz with hashi juice, doesn't apply to VoTE madz.



Why did Hashirama call Madara's performance as "past powers" then?


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## Alucardemi (Sep 5, 2015)

Even if he had Hashi juice, he did it without his eyes and their chakra, so it evens out to him as his prime VoTE self, imo.


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## t0xeus (Sep 5, 2015)

Madara stomps Itachi with negative/low difficulty both scenarios, any other assumption is insane.

Madara is supposed to be stronger in CQC than Itachi, even if we didn't have feats, his whole youth was everyday CQC in war.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> the SM feat was done by revived madz with hashi juice, doesn't apply to VoTE madz.
> 
> madara still snaps him like a twig tho.



Hashi's juice has nothing to do with speed. Madara's movement speed, reaction speed and Shunshin speed were not amped.


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## Kyu (Sep 5, 2015)

Madara is pre-Hashi DNA, guys.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Madara is pre-Hashi DNA, guys.



Doesnt matter, since Hashi's DNA didnt make him faster. In term of speed, RT Madara without Hashi's SM = alive prime Madara during his fight with alive Hashirama, but without EMS.


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## Kyu (Sep 5, 2015)

That was mostly a reminder to those who brought up his healing power and strength increase.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Kyu said:


> That was mostly a reminder to those who brought up his healing power and strength increase.



Alright.


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## The Undying (Sep 5, 2015)

There is nothing suggesting that Madara's speed _or_ physical strength (pre-SM, of course, which encompassed the skirmish against SM Naruto and Sai) was influenced by Hashirama's DNA, especially since Hashirama attributed all of that to his past strength.

The only thing the DNA primarily allowed him to do is use Mokuton.



Ersatz said:


> Itachi has arguably better reflexes and speed




He doesn't have any kind of feat that would imply his speed is comparable to Madara's. Itachi is easily outperformed in every single category here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 5, 2015)

Itachi wins due to better CQC skill, agility, projectile skill. Tough fight.

2nd sceario, a karasu bunshin feint seals the deal. Itachi low dif.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi wins due to better CQC skill, agility, projectile skill. Tough fight.
> 
> 2nd sceario, a karasu bunshin feint seals the deal. Itachi low dif.



Oh come on, we had a debate about that before. Itachi, speedwise, has nothing on Madara. Fighting equally with KCM Naruto who couldnt use his super-Shunshin because of active shadow clones is far less impressive then rushing the living hell out of someone who is faster in CQC and has faster reaction speed than KCM Naruto.

Itachi has nothing on Madara. You can restrict Madara to taijutsu, sharingan's precog and Shunshin, and he will be above Itachi, even if you give Itachi all of his arsenal.

Here, Itachi is also restricted. It will be a curbstomp. Madara is a far superior CQC combatant. He beats Itachi in both scenarios.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

"better agility"

lol

Madara could flatten his ass with one hit.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 5, 2015)

Well the fandom has no limits. 

Even Madara isn't enough to make them question their ridiculous conceptions of Itachi. 

Maybe we can try Ei next?


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

Though, if Madara forced a fighter with better reflexes than Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto to block as opposed to dodge, doesn't that make alive Madara faster than V2 Ā by default?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 5, 2015)

Indeed 

SM Naruto it is then


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

I wonder what happens faster, Frog Katas snapping his neck seven ways to Sunday or Itachi getting his weapon broken and having himself thrown into the stratosphere.

Fuck it, barehanded Itachi vs. Tsunade.


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## The Undying (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> "better agility"
> 
> lol
> 
> Madara could flatten his ass with one hit.




The only thing more "agile" than Madara in this fight will be the speed at which Itachi's head flies.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 5, 2015)

> Fuck it, barehanded Itachi vs. Tsunade.


Watch if Muffin, they might just pull out Itachi's "strength" feats...

[2]
[3]

Ah, I can see it now...

"Itachi equaled KCM Naruto in strength and handled him bare handed in CQC, forcing him back" (Naruto casually blocking and avoiding his strikes while Itachi has air leverage, not in the least bit trying to overpower him, gravity brings them both down to earth- not Itachi's power)
"Itachi knocked out out 3-toma Jounin 3 on 1 barehanded" (who were fodder, featless n00bs)
"Itachi had the strength to block SM Kabuto" (with the durability of "Kusanagi" Katana, with two hands against Kabuto's one hand, that still sent him flying back)


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## Kyu (Sep 5, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> SM Naruto it is then



.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Though, if Madara forced a fighter with better reflexes than Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto to block as opposed to dodge, doesn't that make alive Madara faster than V2 Ā by default?



Maybe Naruto wasn't fast enough to get out of the way?

Both Sage & KCM Naruto can perceive A's full speed, but the latter form is the only one with the flicker necessary to evade it.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

It's so weird how Kishimoto treated NTCM Naruto's strength.

Half of Kurama's chakra all in one form, and one moment he's pushing giant TBBs through barriers and casually muscling out of Iruka's trap and a Nara's Shadow Possession technique, then another moment he's kicking Zetsu like ten feet _max_, being pressured by fucking Obito's swings with Madara's fan (and clones popped, too), getting pinballed by the Raikage and _not_ crippling Itachi - a decidedly average shinobi strength-wise - with a single punch.

It's like Kishimoto just stopped halfway during the War Arc and decided Sage Mode still needed to be useful for something, so he nerfed the shit out of NTCM's physical parameters. Probably around when Naruto needed Sage Mode to push out the stake with brute force.



Rocky said:


> Maybe Naruto wasn't fast enough to get out of the way?
> 
> Both Sage & KCM Naruto can perceive A's full speed, but the latter form is the only one with the flicker necessary to evade it.



Maybe, but all Naruto really needed to do to evade a swift punch or kick, is duck.

Given how hyped his sensing is in that form, you'd think he could've done at least that.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Maybe, but all Naruto really needed to do to evade a swift punch or kick, is duck. Given how hyped his sensing is in that form, you'd think he could've done at least that.



Blocking is the faster (and usually more natural) reflex. 

I don't understand your comparison. If Madara had forced _KCM Naruto_ to block, then you could say he's faster than A.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Blocking is the faster (and usually more natural) reflex.
> 
> I don't understand your comparison. If Madara had forced _KCM Naruto_ to block, then you could say he's faster than A.



Sage Naruto canonically has faster reflexes, that's why.

But I understand Sage Naruto is slower than NTCM Naruto naturally, hence the comparison doesn't fully work.


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

KCM Naruto evading A with Shunshin only proves that Sage Naruto can perceive A as well, not that Sage Mode Naruto can evade too.


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## Alucardemi (Sep 5, 2015)

Well, Sage Naruto has a slower shunshin, but he has a faster CQC reflex, like the one he used to dodge and counter Sandaime at the last second, which he didn't think he could have done in KCM.

Doesn't the fact that he thinks that mean that Sage Mode Naruto not being able to dodge something at the last second indicates speed faster than A, since apparently, by Naruto's own admission, short CQC attacks are better dodged by Sage Mode?


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## Rocky (Sep 5, 2015)

I don't know why Sandaime's Nukite is anymore short or close than A's v2 punch, and the latter attack is not one Sage Mode Naruto can dodge.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

Naruto directly stated he had superior reflexes in SM versus Nine Tailed Chakra Mode, what are you talking about Rocky?

The natural reflex, if SM Naruto were faster than Madara, would have been to punch him in the face, not block.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

How many times KCM Naruto's clone tried to hit Third Raikage? 3 times? And when did he hit him? Only in 3'd try. SM Naruto's clone counter-attacked Third Raikage in 1 try. Not only SM Naruto's reaction speed is faster - his CQC speed is faster. KCM Naruto is the faster one *only* in Shunshin.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Fighting equally with KCM Naruto who couldnt use his super-Shunshin because of active shadow clones


Do you have anything to back this up ?



> who is faster in CQC and has faster reaction speed than KCM Naruto.


SM Naruto has better reaction speed and is faster than KCM Naruto ? 


Re-read chapter 500 and onwards, it is clear that you didn't understand it.



> Itachi has nothing on Madara. You can restrict Madara to taijutsu, sharingan's precog and Shunshin, and he will be above Itachi, even if you give Itachi all of his arsenal.


Thats the most manga contradictory thing I've read in a while in these boards.


> Here, Itachi is also restricted. It will be a curbstomp. Madara is a far superior CQC combatant. He beats Itachi in both scenarios.


Itachi has shown better agility, better projectile skill and overall better taijutsu manuevers.
Madara has stamina and strength going for him, but Itachi has a slight edge when everything is considered.
Giving Itachi access to his bunshins makes this one sided though, as we've seen he can casually bunshin feint, distract and disarm a perfect sage with the help of a karasu bunshin.


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## Alucardemi (Sep 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know why Sandaime's Nukite is anymore short or close than A's v2 punch, and the latter attack is not one Sage Mode Naruto can dodge.



Well, how do we know he wouldn't be able to dodge it.

I mean, if he hadn't actually done it, would anyone think he could've dodged a super-fast Nukite at the last second? Certainly Sage Mode Nardo can't shunshin past the Raikage's punch, but he could probably move his head out of the way and a few centimeters away.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 6, 2015)

> Do you have anything to back this up ?



He used that Shunshin against many opponents, but havent used it against Itachi. The quastion is - why? Why he couldnt use his super-Shunshin while he had active shadow clones?



> SM Naruto has better reaction speed and is faster than KCM Naruto ?
> 
> 
> Re-read chapter 500 and onwards, it is clear that you didn't understand it.



Do you remember how many times KCM Naruto's clone tried to hit Third Raikage? Do you remember how SM Naruto's clone counter-attacked The Third's strongest jutsu within close distance, in one try? Do you remember Naruto's own words on his Sage Mode?



> Thats the most manga contradictory thing I've read in a while in these boards.



Nope. You are overestimating Itachi, a lot.



> Itachi has shown better agility, better projectile skill and overall better taijutsu manuevers.
> Madara has stamina and strength going for him, but Itachi has a slight edge when everything is considered.
> Giving Itachi access to his bunshins makes this one sided though, as we've seen he can casually bunshin feint, distract and disarm a perfect sage with the help of a karasu bunshin.



The same Perfect Sage who could react to Itachi multiple times and cleave him in half once? The same Perfect Sage who doesnt have feats good enough to say he is as fast as War Arc Sage Mode Naruto and has reflexes as good as War Arc SM Naruto's? Should i remind you what alive, blind Madara did to SM Naruto?

Madara is in another speed tier. He is much faster than Itachi. He is on a completely different level.

And here, Madara curbstomps both scenarios.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Well, how do we know he wouldn't be able to dodge it.



Well one, that would undermine the importance of the entire scene, but I guess that's my opinion. Two, Naruto barley evaded Nukite in Sage Mode. V2 Punch is far faster than that, so chances are he'd be hit.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Naruto evaded it by a hair so that the 3rd couldn't counter-attack. That was the entire purpose of cutting it so close.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 6, 2015)

That is true, sasuke landed a counter hit on A with the exact same tactic. Seemed as if they were trading hits but he outmanuevered A with the precog.


----------



## Amol (Sep 6, 2015)

Madara obviously. It is not even a contest.
He outclasses Itachi in every category.
There was a reason he was called Strongest Uchiha.


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## Rocky (Sep 6, 2015)

Sasuke is a good comparison. Both Sage Mode & Sharingan heighten the ability to perceive and read attacks. That's why Naruto was able to counter the third Raikage with such precision. 

I just don't know what that has to do with v2 A. Naruto never demonstrated the actual movement speed to avoid him.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Ā's attacks are fairly linear, and therefore predictable. With Naruto's skill in CQC, moving a foot or so by ducking or sidestepping shouldn't be too difficult given he can at least perceive Ā.

At least, in a straight-out fight, all Naruto has to do is use a Senpō: Rasengan to blast Ā's arm off.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Ā's attacks are fairly linear, and therefore predictable.



This discussion has never been about predictability. It's been about movement speed.  



ATastyMuffin said:


> With Naruto's skill in CQC, moving a foot or so by ducking or sidestepping shouldn't be too difficult given he can at least perceive Ā.



This isn't about Naruto's "skill" in close combat either. "V2 punch" is A running into you with his fist extended. There's nothing skillful about it. Naruto hasn't evaded anything on its speed tier, and given they hype and portrayal of it, I'm not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.



ATastyMuffin said:


> At least, in a straight-out fight, all Naruto has to do is use a Senpō: Rasengan to blast Ā's arm off.



If A attacked him in v1 with Elbow, then sure.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

Again, he directly stated he had better reflexes in SM compared to Nine Tails Chakra Mode. 

If KCM Naruto reacted and completely avoided, SM Naruto reacts, blocks the punch or ducks below it then Kata's Ei in the process. If he has a Senpo Rasengan active that gets slammed into Ei's gut.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Again, he directly stated he had better reflexes in SM compared to Nine Tails Chakra Mode.



Well actually, he didn't. He never mentioned KCM when fighting the 3rd Raikage in Sage Mode, but even if he had... 



DaVizWiz said:


> If KCM Naruto reacted and completely avoided, SM Naruto reacts...



...and then what? Blocks or evades without ever demonstrating the body speed to do so? KCM Naruto's reflexes were only good enough to respond at the last second, but that response was a super Shunshin that reminded people of Minato's Hiraishin. Even if SM Naruto reads the v2 flicker better (and begins any response sooner), that response isn't getting him out of the way.

Without a feat of him blocking or dodging something on v2 A's speed tier, I have no reason to change my opinion. You can perceive something perfectly fine and yet still be physically fucked. Look at Kakashi against Sasuke's arrow.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

[1], he chose to enter SM over KCM.

Logically, he's comparing SM's reactions to KCM, because he wouldn't have had to compare it to his base self- that's obvious to everyone and their grandmother that SM reactions > his base reactions.

"I can sense danger faster and greater with Sage Mode"

That's a direct implication that he's more capable of reacting in close quarters than KCM. 

Do you actually think KCM Naruto, non-shunshin, is faster than SM Naruto?

SM Naruto would probably slam a Rasengan in KCM Naruto's face if shunshin was restricted.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

I think Sage Naruto can at least duck one of V2 Ā's blitzes, but certainly not travel a considerable distance like NTCM Naruto did.There's no real way to prove or disprove it; I just rate Sage Mode's hyped sensing and apparent CQC-prowess quite highly.

DaVizWiz, you make a good point with your last point. Naruto indeed made that comparison because he had the choice between either form, and it seems Sage Mode was preferable. From that, I'd interpret it as: NTCM is better when it comes to raw speed with Shunshin, but without Shunshin, Sage Mode is a lot more adept at close-quarters.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2015)

KCM _ran out. _

Without KCM available to him, it is no longer "logical" for him to bring it up in that context. That's not the case with his base form.

And KCM Naruto only evaded because his body was vitalized by a ridiculously powerful Shunshin. Sage Naruto has no flicker feats that compare, and he certainly hasn't dodged anything like v2 A without Shunshin.

This has never been about perceiving A's flicker. Hell, I could make the argument that since A _told_ KCM Naruto he was coming, Sage Naruto's better perception is irrelevant.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

You're arguing he thought to himself that his SM reactions were superior to his base reactions?

Why would he think that? That was obvious to him the first time he entered the mode. By god, Pa directly told him SM would increase everything about his abilities in training. 

So he had enough power left to enter SM and summon a shadow clone, but not KCM?


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2015)

KCM is a separate pool of chakra Naruto draws from, and it was all gone. Keep in mind that when he tells Temari that, he creates a clone and uses a giant Rasengan. Then he goes into Sage Mode and uses the Rasenshuriken of all things. 

Naruto's own chakra was shelved, so once KCM ran out, he still had his own reserves left over (which were used to enter Sage Mode against the Raikage and later against Madara).


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 7, 2015)

Well you got me there. 

Still illogical that he thought that to himself, unless Kishimoto was simply attempting to reiterate to the readers' the power of Sage Mode?

Makes sense considering everyone was shocked when SM Naruto was able to do what he did. Throwing a little salt down before the storm I guess.

All things considered, it's my personal belief that their non-shunshin movement is comparable, especially if we consider his Kurama battle feats where he was avoiding Kurama's claws- and yet KCM naruto was struggling to avoid 1-tailed and V2 Cloaked Jinchuriki. I mean I'm willing to bet that Kurama's giant claw is as difficult to react to as their attacks were. 

Though there is the fact that he seemed somewhat weakened- that's only logical when people bring up the fact that KCM Naruto "wasn't shunshining", his physical movement, reactions and body adjustments shouldn't have been affected. If you're in a mode, these things don't weaken until you're no longer in said mode. 

And the power of danger sense shouldn't be underestimated just because KCM Naruto happens to have superior shunshin speed (even though SM Naruto has a pretty decent shunshin himself).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I just don't know what that has to do with v2 A. Naruto never demonstrated the actual movement speed to avoid him.



Nothing.

The difference between V1 and V2 is massive.

A went from being read and outmanuevered by Sasuke to leaving an after image as he circled back behind Sasuke before Sasuke knew what was going on.


KCM Naruto's movement and reaction speed is leaps and bounds over SM Naruto's.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nothing.
> 
> The difference between V1 and V2 is massive.
> 
> ...



KCM Naruto's clone.



versus

SM Naruto's clone.



I think what SM Naruto's clone did was more impressive. 

Plus Naruto's own words.

I'd put SM Naruto above KCM Naruto in terms of movement speed and reaction speed. KCM Naruto, however, has a lot faster Shunshin. 

And Madara still dominates Itachi.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> All things considered, it's my personal belief that their non-shunshin movement is comparable



I think it is too. KCM Naruto never did anything that impressive with just his foot speed, and Kishi basically took away his ability to Shunshin until he activated BM. It was just bad writing.

It's possible that SM Naruto (or KCM Naruto or Minato) could _maybe_ block v2 A's punch, but that's only because there are examples of other characters inexplicably putting up guards with a fist an inch from their face.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Sep 7, 2015)

What a V2 Ā could do to Sage Naruto is in the same vein of what Madara did to him; perceive the speed but just have barely enough time to block it. Of course because it's V2 Ā, there'll be more knockback than Madara's kick, but I expect Naruto to be fine, as Madara was when he was struck by Ā.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> KCM Naruto's clone.
> 
> 
> 
> versus



 KCM Naruto wasn't trying to counter hit him, but he still managed to land a hit on Raikage who was purely on the defensive.

Those two situations aren't comparable at  all.



> SM Naruto's clone.
> 
> 
> 
> I think what SM Naruto's clone did was more impressive.


What you think is irrelevant. KCM Naruto can movepast A, who is fuckloads faster than Sandaime Raikage.




> Plus Naruto's own words.


Yes, compared to his base, Sage mode gives him better perception, but we already knew that.




> I'd put SM Naruto above KCM Naruto in terms of movement speed and reaction speed. KCM Naruto, however, has a lot faster Shunshin.


Thats completely contradicted by manga.
KCM Naruto is on a completely different speed ballpark compared to SM version.




> And Madara still dominates Itachi.


In your distorted version of reality. But it is a completely different story when it comes to their manga versions.



ATastyMuffin said:


> What a V2 Ā could do to Sage Naruto is in the same vein of what Madara did to him; perceive the speed but just have barely enough time to block it. Of course because it's V2 Ā, there'll be more knockback than Madara's kick, but I expect Naruto to be fine, as Madara was when he was struck by Ā.



Lol, equating Madara's speed and strength to V2 A without any substantial evidence or any argument.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 7, 2015)

> KCM Naruto wasn't trying to counter hit him, but he still managed to land a hit on Raikage who was purely on the defensive.
> 
> Those two situations aren't comparable at all.



It doesnt matter that he wasnt counter-attacking - The Third dodged 2 of his attacks at almost point-blank range.



> What you think is irrelevant. KCM Naruto can movepast A, who is fuckloads faster than Sandaime Raikage.



And KCM Naruto's clone performed worse than SM Naruto's clone against Sandaime Raikage.



> Yes, compared to his base, Sage mode gives him better perception, but we already knew that.



That may, or may not be compared to his base. Especially when KCM Naruto's clone performed worse. 



> Thats completely contradicted by manga.
> KCM Naruto is on a completely different speed ballpark compared to SM version.



That's your assumption based on nothing. 



> In your distorted version of reality. But it is a completely different story when it comes to their manga versions.



Yeah, and a non-distorted version of reality is a version of reality where Fourth Raikage Ei is more durable than Juubidara, faster than 7 Gate Gai and where Amaterasu doesnt go from the aye with an astonishing speed, but forms right where the user is looking in a Kamui-like way. I think i'll stick up with my "distorted" version of reality.

Itachi has no feats to put him above Madara in speed category. 



> Lol, equating Madara's speed and strength to V2 A without any substantial evidence or any argument.



I brought lots of them in another debate. But you love to ignore them.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It doesnt matter that he wasnt counter-attacking -



Ok you just proved that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.



> The Third dodged 2 of his attacks at almost point-blank range.


When he was purely on the defensive.



> And KCM Naruto's clone performed worse than SM Naruto's clone against Sandaime Raikage.


Based on what ? 



> That may, or may not be compared to his base. Especially when KCM Naruto's clone performed worse.


KCM ran out, so it was obviously his base.
And like I said, what KCM Naruto did can't be compared to what SM Naruto did, as they were doing something completely different.



> That's your assumption based on nothing.


It is based on feats and statements.



> Yeah, and a non-distorted version of reality is a version of reality where Fourth Raikage Ei is more durable than Juubidara, faster than 7 Gate Gai and where Amaterasu doesnt go from the aye with an astonishing speed, but forms right where the user is looking in a Kamui-like way. I think i'll stick up with my "distorted" version of reality.


Everything you mentioned there can be back up by scans from the manga.
But the notion that Madara is as fast as V2 A ? It is a product of your fanfiction and can be discarded by anyone who has read the manga.



> Itachi has no feats to put him above Madara in speed category.


I never said he was. 
Itachi doesn't need to be faster than Madara to be able to beat him. I believe they are in the same ballpark of speed, and whoever is faster is a negligable difference. 
I said Itachi has better agility, which can be seen in their taijutsu encounters. I'd say Itachi is one of the most agile and  nimble characters in the manga. Madara simply isn't.



> I brought lots of them in another debate. But you love to ignore them.



I destroyed everything you brought up, but please if you believe I missed something, bring that up so I can pick it apart and destroy it too.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

> Ok you just proved that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.



Oh come on, Grimm. That's wrong.



> When he was purely on the defensive.



Naruto was in Third's LoS. He could Shunshin out of the way of his counter, or put out his arm from Naruto's Rassengan and counter-attack him. But he couldnt do that.

Also, the Third was blinded by the sun (or FRS's light, that doesnt matter anyway) when he dodged KCM Naruto's clone first attack.



> Based on what ?



Based on his performance against The Third.



> KCM ran out, so it was obviously his base.
> And like I said, what KCM Naruto did can't be compared to what SM Naruto did, as they were doing something completely different.



Not "completely different". 



> It is based on feats and statements.



What feats? What statements? Provide them here.



> Everything you mentioned there can be back up by scans from the manga.
> But the notion that Madara is as fast as V2 A ? It is a product of your fanfiction and can be discarded by anyone who has read the manga.



LOL wat? 

All of those points were refuted long ago. 

That is based on his manga performances, that's not a fanfiction.



> I never said he was.
> Itachi doesn't need to be faster than Madara to be able to beat him. I believe they are in the same ballpark of speed, and whoever is faster is a negligable difference.
> I said Itachi has better agility, which can be seen in their taijutsu encounters. I'd say Itachi is one of the most agile and nimble characters in the manga. Madara simply isn't.



Itachi has no speed feats to say he is as fast as Madara and his agility, demonstrated against characters slower than Madara, will be useless against a proficient EMS user who is a lot faster, basicly in a higher speed tier.


----------



## Zef (Sep 8, 2015)

By feats Madara takes it.(hype too I guess)
-He took on an entire division in cqc
-Fought off Naruto, Sasuke, & Sai while being blind

He's shown greater bouts of speed & strength during the War Arc then Itachi throughout the entire manga.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Oh come on, Grimm. That's wrong.


If I thought it was wrong I wouldn't say it.

You are trying to discard the fact that SM Naruto landed a counter hit. That just shows you have no idea what you are saying here. 



> Naruto was in Third's LoS. He could Shunshin out of the way of his counter, or put out his arm from Naruto's Rassengan and counter-attack him. But he couldnt do that.


He couldn't because he was too busy attacking him.



> > Also, the Third was blinded by the sun (or FRS's light, that doesnt matter anyway) when he dodged KCM Naruto's clone first attack.


FRS isn't hard to dodge, it is a linear projectile.




> Based on his performance against The Third.


KCM did better, because he didn't need 3rd to strike him to land a hit, he simply outmanuvered him when he was purely on the defensive.



> Not "completely different".


Of course it is, otherwise Kishimoto wouldn't bother explaining it.




> > What feats? What statements? Provide them here.


KCM Naruto being likened to yellow flash and us being specifically told that KCM increased his speed massively. 
SM Naruto on the other hand doesn't have any hype when it comes to speed, or a single impressive feat for that matter.
Also KCM Naruto dodged V2 A, replicating what his dad did without Hirashin. 
SM Naruto doesn't have a feat that even remotely comes close.



> > LOL wat?
> >
> > All of those points were refuted long ago.


No they weren't. You can't refute what is in the manga. 
You can however refute what isn't. Like for example Madara being as fast as A.



> That is based on his manga performances, that's not a fanfiction.


You think Madara is as fast as A. It is fanfiction.



> Itachi has no speed feats to say he is as fast as Madara and his agility, demonstrated against characters slower than Madara, will be useless against a proficient EMS user who is a lot faster, basicly in a higher speed tier.



It is quite the contrary. Madara doesn't have any notable speed feats, I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt and placing him on Itachi or Gai's tier just because he is Madara. I believe he would have top tier body and reaction speed(the amount you can have without chakra modes and shit).
Madara doesn't have 1 notable speed feat that would place him above Itachi or people around Itachi's speed tier.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 8, 2015)

> If I thought it was wrong I wouldn't say it.
> 
> You are trying to discard the fact that SM Naruto landed a counter hit. That just shows you have no idea what you are saying here.



Oh realy? I dont think so.



> He couldn't because he was too busy attacking him.



He can stop his Shunshin blitz whenever he wants, just like his son. KCM Naruto's clone attacked him and The Third dodged 2 of his attacks, although 1 time he was blinded and second time it was in a close distance, few inches from him. SM Naruto was in his LoS. Raikage could put his hand out of Naruto's counter-attack line, could Shunshin away, could simply dodge, put his hand higher in the air etc. But he didnt. Maybe because he couldnt? Yeah - that's right, he couldnt. It doesnt matter that he was attacking in that panel, considering how his Raiton speed works.



> FRS isn't hard to dodge, it is a linear projectile.



Which was in KCM Naruto's chakra hand.



> KCM did better, because he didn't need 3rd to strike him to land a hit, he simply outmanuvered him when he was purely on the defensive.



Refuted earlier.



> Of course it is, otherwise Kishimoto wouldn't bother explaining it.



There are tons of things Kishimoto havent explained, but they are obvious. 



> KCM Naruto being likened to yellow flash and us being specifically told that KCM increased his speed massively.
> SM Naruto on the other hand doesn't have any hype when it comes to speed, or a single impressive feat for that matter.
> Also KCM Naruto dodged V2 A, replicating what his dad did without Hirashin.
> SM Naruto doesn't have a feat that even remotely comes close.



Specifically told? KCM increase speed, but i want to see a panel where it is specifically "told".

SM was said to make every Shinobi's attribute better. And it was obvious that SM also increases speed.

He was compared to Minato first of all for his Shunshin. As if Minato's own speed is all that impressive to begin with.

KCM has no impressive speed feats other than Shunshin feats. 

And i want you to prove that Minato dodged Ei's V2 speed without Hiraishin, with Shunshin only.



> No they weren't. You can't refute what is in the manga.
> You can however refute what isn't. Like for example Madara being as fast as A.



I can refute your false claims. That's what i can do. And that's what i did with all those claims you had. You want me to refute all of them again? 



> You think Madara is as fast as A. It is fanfiction.



Considering what Edo Madara did with V2 Ei and what alive blind Madara did to War Arc SM Naruto, i'd say that Ei is not physically faster than Madara.



> It is quite the contrary. Madara doesn't have any notable speed feats, I'm just giving him the benefit of the doubt and placing him on Itachi or Gai's tier just because he is Madara. I believe he would have top tier body and reaction speed(the amount you can have without chakra modes and shit).
> Madara doesn't have 1 notable speed feat that would place him above Itachi or people around Itachi's speed tier.



Reacting to V2 Ei and blocking his punch isnt a notable speed feats? Outperforming SM naruto like that isnt impressive speed feat? Physically moving faster than Jinton isnt a notable speed feat? 

What notable speed feat Itachi has to put him above Madara? That's right - none.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 9, 2015)

Although he only can use the 3 tomoe sharingan, his body is still powered by the chakra awarded to him by his EMS, which should logically make him far stronger physically and far faster than someone who's movements are only powered by chakra from the MS.

That's not to mention the fact that Madara has far more chakra than Itachi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

Like Sasuke.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Oh realy? I dont think so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When Naruto was doing the SM training, Pa explained it in detail. He specifically said what SM increased. Speed wasn't among them. SM doesn't directly influence speed like KCM does.

Couple that with the fact  that no one ever commented on SM Naruto's speed(positive or negative), yeah. 

Also here, Tsunade says Naruto's KCM allows him to match Raikage's speed : [6]
That specifically tells you that it increases his speed.

Also the fact that he was likened to yellow flash(who is known for his speed) on more than one occasion. 

If that evidence isn't enough for you, just re-read Raikage vs Naruto. Naruto replicates what Minato did without hirashin. He physically moves out of max speed raikage's way and runs past him. 
That feat alone would place him on a completely different ballpark than SM Naruto, even if you discard all the "yellow flash" hype surrounding his KCM.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

> He specifically said what SM increased. Speed wasn't among them.


SM doesn't increase speed?

Dude, you've gone off the the deep end now.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> SM doesn't increase speed?
> 
> Dude, you've gone off the the deep end now.



I am not sure how you manage to come up with lower IQ posts each time, but I gotta give it to you.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Dude, you're not even intelligent enough to deduce when Ei's hair is spiked.

Please refrain from evaluating other people's intelligence quotient, you're not qualified.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Dude, you're not even intelligent enough to deduce when Ei's hair is spiked.
> 
> Please refrain from evaluating other people's intelligence quotient, you're not qualified.



It requires intelligence to deduce when A's hair gets spiked ? 

Intelligence is pretty scarce in where you come from isn't it ?


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Apparently it does, I wouldn't have thought someone was incapable of deducing it.. but along game Grimmjow.

Refusing to admit that's V2 Ei is like looking at a stop sign and reading it as go.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Apparently it does, I wouldn't have thought someone was incapable of deducing it.. but along game Grimmjow.
> 
> Refusing to admit that's V2 Ei is like looking at a stop sign and reading it as go.



The outlier becomes the standart only when you refuse to see the standart. 

In that sense yes, he is in V2, if you completely ignore the parts where he was actually using V2(completely different visual cues).


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Not at all. His hair was spiked, which is the only indication of V2. He has braids, so it's fairly easy to see when his hair is spiked. Look closely [1]

Zero difference between the hair in the panel before he blitzed Madara, compared the panels corresponding to where he avoided Amaterasu & Blitzed Naruto.

The only other logic you could provide is the mini lightning strings circling his cloak, which only happens when he's in V2, and which was happening before he blitzed Madara.

[1] [2] [3] [4]


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

You have to get your eyes checked then. Its like saying Naruto's KCM and BM look the same.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2015)

Wow, I've never seen a troll like you in all my time debating here.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Wow, I've never seen a troll like you in all my time debating here.



I'm just giving you friendly advice.

If you can't tell the difference between this Link removed and this Link removed then you have to get your eyes checked. Probably any person with your best interest at his/herheart would tell you the same thing.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When Naruto was doing the SM training, Pa explained it in detail. He specifically said what SM increased. Speed wasn't among them. SM doesn't directly influence speed like KCM does.
> 
> Couple that with the fact  that no one ever commented on SM Naruto's speed(positive or negative), yeah.
> 
> ...



It is obvious SM increase speed due to Naruto's much better performance with Sage Mode.

And it was said that taijutsu is one of the things which are improved.

Due to his Shunshin. KCM Naruto has no physical speed/reaction speed feats to say that it is on a completely different level than SM.

Yeah, runs past him thanks to his superior Shunshin.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm just giving you friendly advice.
> 
> If you can't tell the difference between this [1] and this [1] then you have to get your eyes checked. Probably any person with your best interest at his/herheart would tell you the same thing.



Hair is not the only indication of V2 - the thickness of his Raiton Armor is also an indication.

And if his hair is spikey - it is V2. He has never used V1 with spikey hair before that. Also, there isnt much of a difference, if you look at those scans closely.

Do you realy believe that Kishimoto will try to draw his hair in that panel exactly the same as in his previous fight with Sasuke? There is a little difference. A little one. But the thickness of his Raiton and his hair spikey, visibly in V2 proves that it was, in fact, V2.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Sep 10, 2015)

> I'm just giving you friendly advice.
> 
> If you can't tell the difference between this [1] and this [1] then you have to get your eyes checked. Probably any person with your best interest at his/herheart would tell you the same thing.


Flaming Rain, Alex Payne, ARGUS, Rocky & Star all believe that's V2 Ei. Muffin even converted at some point in the Minato feat thread, and LostSelf agrees that it's a clear possibility. 

In contrast, you have Strategoob in this thread (Itachi fanboy like yourself attempting to discount the fact that Madara is faster than Itachi in this Madara vs. Itachi thread so Itachi wins) and RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Minato fanboy attempting to disregard Madara's speed as close to Minato's in a thread created for the purpose of comparing their speed features ) Hussain (Minato fanboy attempting to disprove Madara reacted to Ei's full speed in a thread that was made for the purpose of comparing their speed features ) and Icegaze (no explanation needed) stating it wasn't V2. 

Nice company, Grimm. 

Spikey hair is Spikey hair, the degree at which it's spikey isn't relevant. If it's spikey, he's in V2. 

Please stop trolling man, you're ruining this thread and the section as a whole because of your love for a male comic book character (Itachi). It's disturbing, seriously. You're a 30 something man, aren't you? And you're fanboying a male fictional character to the degree of denying when hair is spikey?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> It is obvious SM increase speed due to Naruto's much better performance with Sage Mode.


I didn't say SM doesn't increase speed. I said it doesn't directly influence it like KCM does. 
SM's speed increase isn't that significant, and was never emphasised visually or verbally.



> And it was said that taijutsu is one of the things which are improved.


It was already stated and shown.



> Due to his Shunshin. KCM Naruto has no physical speed/reaction speed feats to say that it is on a completely different level than SM.


Yes, reacting to V2 A isn't a reaction speed feat. 



> Yeah, runs past him thanks to his superior Shunshin.



If he didn't have the reaction speed to react to A that feat wouldn't be possible.
At the very worst you have to agree that KCM Naruto has Minato level reactions.

Fastest SM Naruto reacted was A's dad. Who is arguably as fast as V1 A.


StarWanderer said:


> Hair is not the only indication of V2 - the thickness of his Raiton Armor is also an indication.
> 
> And if his hair is spikey - it is V2. He has never used V1 with spikey hair before that. Also, there isnt much of a difference, if you look at those scans closely.
> 
> Do you realy believe that Kishimoto will try to draw his hair in that panel exactly the same as in his previous fight with Sasuke? There is a little difference. A little one. But the thickness of his Raiton and his hair spikey, visibly in V2 proves that it was, in fact, V2.





DaVizWiz said:


> Flaming Rain, Alex Payne, ARGUS, Rocky & Star all believe that's V2 Ei. Muffin even converted at some point in the Minato feat thread, and LostSelf agrees that it's a clear possibility.
> 
> In contrast, you have Strategoob in this thread (Itachi fanboy like yourself attempting to discount the fact that Madara is faster than Itachi in this Madara vs. Itachi thread so Itachi wins) and RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Minato fanboy attempting to disregard Madara's speed as close to Minato's in a thread created for the purpose of comparing their speed features ) Hussain (Minato fanboy attempting to disprove Madara reacted to Ei's full speed in a thread that was made for the purpose of comparing their speed features ) and Icegaze (no explanation needed) stating it wasn't V2.
> 
> Nice company, Grimm.


There is no such thing as V1 or V2. Those are terms we use to distinguish between his states.

V2 is basically A amping up his shroud to higher levels. There is no default value for it.

In every instance where he was specifically stated to have used his max speed, his hair was illustrated in a specific way.

In the scan you posted, it isn't. And you are trying to equate it to those instances, despite the significant difference in looks. Thats what we call "reaching."

At the very best you can argue that he amped his shroud further than V1, but not to the degree that it was amped up against Naruto or Sasuke. 




> Spikey hair is Spikey hair, the degree at which it's spikey isn't relevant. If it's spikey, he's in V2.


Thats the dumbest thing I've heard since yesterday. Well don't worry champ, you hold the record 



> Please stop trolling man, you're ruining this thread and the section as a whole because of your love for a male comic book character (Itachi). It's disturbing, seriously. You're a 30 something man, aren't you? And you're fanboying a male fictional character to the degree of denying when hair is spikey?



You really need to exercise your brain(although I must say I am not very optimistic) to come up with new methods of insulting. I remember you saying the exact same thing a couple of years back.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

> I didn't say SM doesn't increase speed. I said it doesn't directly influence it like KCM does.
> SM's speed increase isn't that significant, and was never emphasised visually or verbally.



It was, in a fight with The Third Raikage.



> Yes, reacting to V2 A isn't a reaction speed feat.



And performed like that against The Third Raikage?



> If he didn't have the reaction speed to react to A that feat wouldn't be possible.
> At the very worst you have to agree that KCM Naruto has Minato level reactions.
> 
> Fastest SM Naruto reacted was A's dad. Who is arguably as fast as V1 A.



Yet he performed better than KCM Naruto in a fight against The Third.



> There is no such thing as V1 or V2. Those are terms we use to distinguish between his states.
> 
> V2 is basically A amping up his shroud to higher levels. There is no default value for it.
> 
> ...



It is. There is no significant difference in looks. You should re-read the manga, cpecifically the instances where Ei used V2 Shunshin.



> You really need to exercise your brain(although I must say I am not very optimistic) to come up with new methods of insulting. I remember you saying the exact same thing a couple of years back.



Before giving such an advice, re-read the manga and learn that Kishimoto is a little bit inconsistent in drawing. His V2 hair in a fight with Naruto is also different from his V2 hair in a fight with Sasuke.

And, finally, a quastion.

Why in the world he wont use V2 Shunshin against an Uchiha with such a hype when he used it against Naruto and Sasuke?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 10, 2015)

> You really need to exercise your brain(although I must say I am not very optimistic) to come up with new methods of insulting. I remember you saying the exact same thing a couple of years back.


And you were still a 30 something year old dude a couple years back, still in love with a male drawn embodiment of a writer's thought. I remember. 

I really do hope you're not straight, that's really the only explanation.

I  have no other words to describe your feelings toward this character, to the point of denying that another character's hair isn't straight?

You legit have to be in love with him, no other word applies. You're literally denying basic visual evidence to sustain your position on the superiority of the character you clearly have an emotional connection with. 

I have no idea how any moderator, who even remotely considers their position on here somewhat seriously, has allowed you participate in this section with the overt bias that you've displayed time and time again for this specific character. The moment someone disagrees with your preconceived notion of this character's capabilities you flamebait them and continue to disregard clear, undeniable proof of the conflicting argument. You literally make the section worse because you post here. 

I'll say it again, Ei's hair is spikey, he's in V2, please do not deny this again.


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## LostSelf (Sep 10, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> There's _reacting to V2 Ay_ when _just pre-occupied with Mei's lava stream_. While using the Rinnegan as opposed to the Sharingan, too.



Yeah. The good part of this is that Gai sent Madara flyind all over with Hirudora, before Madara could do nothing and in front of Gai and saved Naruto before Madara finished a mid-swing.

That's a curbstomping over the man who claimed himself to be the fastest .

Ok, now that i finished with the most important stuff, let's get to the thread.

I see Madara winning. Actually, i see Madara superior to any other Uchiha (bar free powerups Sasuke) in anything, or, at the very least, almost anything. From physical to ninjutsu, to reactions, etc. Itachi should have the edge in genjutsu, though. Featwise, at least.

Madara should win this considering that if FlamingRain said Ei was in V2. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 i can't argue that. Not only because i would have to beat him in a debate, but because going against him would be taking out that proof of Gai being faster


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## Matty (Sep 10, 2015)

I can't see Itachi winning this. Madara is just a tier better in everything besides genjutsu. MAYBE speed but i doubt that can be conclusive so I'll say they are equal.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 10, 2015)

Grimm doesnt understand one simple thing - Kishimoto is not very, very consistent with his drawings. In Madara's case, his hair was spikey in a little bit different way. 

Take a look at this.



And now, at this.



Is it different? Yes, a little bit, *a little bit*. But in both cases, it was V2.

Now, take a look at this.



Not only his Raiton armor is thick as hell (one of V2 indications) but also his hair is spikey.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 10, 2015)

The very fact you have to again post all three in succession, after I and several other users have done so several times, and explain to him the similarities yet another time is unbelievable.

Lol... this fanboy Grimmjow

What is it about this character Itachi that pushes people to unyieldingly deny indisputable visual evidence?


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