# Zuko (ATLA) vs LOK Waterbenders



## Rivers (Oct 30, 2014)

​
*Location:* Misty Palms Oasis Inn
*Starting Distance:* Opposite rooftops on the sides of the Inn.
*SOM:* In character but serious
*Knowledge:* Full
- EOS Zuko brings along his Twin Dao Swords
- Healed after each match

*Opponents:*
- Tahno (White Falls Wolfbats)
- Viper (Triple Threat Triad)
- Eska and Desna
- Tonraq
- Kya
- Unalaq
- Ming Hua
- Tarrlok (No Bloodbending)

Whom from these LOK Waterbenders can the Fire Nation Prince take down?

*Bonus Scenario:* Zuko (ATLA) soars on Druk (LOK) in the air. All the LOK Waterbenders start on the ground surrounding the pool.


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## Matta Clatta (Oct 30, 2014)

I'd be generous saying he could beat Tonraq but I think he stops at eska and desna together.
Zuko isn't really that good in atla he lost more fights than anyone


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 30, 2014)

Eska and Desna at the same time and Ming Hua are too much. Too bad he never actually learned hot to lightning bend.


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## Rivers (Oct 30, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Eska and Desna at the same time and Ming Hua are too much.


What about the likes of Kya or Tonraq?



MusubiKazesaru said:


> Too bad he never actually learned hot to lightning bend.



A coverage move against your weakness is always a good thing to have. 



			
				Matta Clatta said:
			
		

> Zuko isn't really that good in atla he lost more fights than anyone.



He did hang with and faced off against Book II Katara.


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## Amae (Oct 30, 2014)

Why would EOS Zuko lose to Eska and Densa?  He at least gets to Unalaq with no question in my mind.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 30, 2014)

Amae said:


> Why would EOS Zuko lose to Eska and Densa?  He at least gets to Unalaq with no question in my mind.



I was thinking both at a time would be too much, but now that I think about it Katara shits on them both and I consider Zuko superior to her. 

I say he can beat Tonraq and Unalaq


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## Wan (Oct 30, 2014)

Rivers said:


> - Tahno (White Falls Wolfbats)



Lol


> - Viper (Triple Threat Triad)



Lol


> - Eska and Desna



He could probably take either of them alone, but together?  Zuko loses.



> - Tonraq



Could go either way.  Would be interesting to see Tonraq's water claws vs Zuko's dao swords.



> - Kya



Kya doesn't have a whole lot of feats, so going by that I would say Zuko has the advantage.



> - Unalaq



Unalaq held off both Mako and Bolin at the same time.  I'd say he has the advantage.



> - Ming Hua



We've seen what Ming Hua can do to a firebender, in the same location no less.  I'd give the advantage to her.



> - Tarrlok (No Bloodbending)



Tarrlok doesn't have too many feats outside of bloodbending, really.  I would give the advantage to Zuko.  Tarrlok stomps if bloodbending is allowed, of course.



> *Bonus Scenario:* Zuko (ATLA) soars on Druk (LOK) in the air. All the LOK Waterbenders start on the ground surrounding the pool.



Air power for the win.  Although Desna and Eska have directly demonstrated anti-air range, so they could possibly still bring him down.



Amae said:


> Why would EOS Zuko lose to Eska and Densa?  He at least gets to Unalaq with no question in my mind.



Because this:


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## Rivers (Oct 31, 2014)

Wan said:


> Kya doesn't have a whole lot of feats, so going by that I would say Zuko has the advantage.



Well Kya not getting instantly owned by Ming Hua (unlike Eska and Densa) seems pretty good.

She may not have the physicality/endurance of the others on the list, but she has skill enough to have Ming Hua resort to her Multi-Tendril Form to finish her off quickly.


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## Amae (Oct 31, 2014)

Wan said:


> Because this:


That ain't shit. Was that meant to be impressive? Exaggeration aside, Zuko has easy counters to that.


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## Rivers (Nov 1, 2014)

Amae said:


> That ain't shit. Was that meant to be impressive? Exaggeration aside, Zuko has easy counters to that.



Such as?


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## YoungChief (Nov 1, 2014)

Wan said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> Lol
> ...



Mako can beat Ming Hua but not Zuko, very interesting conclusion you came to there. Zuko would likely shit on Desna and Eska too btw, their ice pillars did jack shit to Ming Hua who btw, Zuko > Ming Hua if you didn't get what I was saying before, they get fire whips to the face

Also Zuko could react to and block Combustion Man's explosions (not to mention lightning feats) and could fight on equal footing with his sister Azula, who would shitstomp everyone on this list barring Tarrlok bloodbending


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 1, 2014)

Wan said:


> Because this:



First: this is not impressive .

Second: They are not fighting in a place with as much water as Bolin and Mako vs them, so yeah, even this that you call impressive(It's not), wouldn't be done .

Third: We all know all lists have to have at least three items .


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## Amae (Nov 1, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Such as?


For one, a fire wall. S1 Zuko was encased ice and broken out of it easily. A  generic fire  with his swords is no joke, either. Zuko has higher DC and defenses than everyone on that list.


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## Wan (Nov 1, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> Mako can beat Ming Hua but not Zuko, very interesting conclusion you came to there. Zuko would likely shit on Desna and Eska too btw, their ice pillars did jack shit to Ming Hua who btw, Zuko > Ming Hua if you didn't get what I was saying before, they get fire whips to the face
> 
> Also Zuko could react to and block Combustion Man's explosions (not to mention lightning feats) and could fight on equal footing with his sister Azula, who would shitstomp everyone on this list barring Tarrlok bloodbending



Mako beat Ming Hua because Mako used the lightning technique on her, which Zuko doesn't have.  If Zuko dropped into that pool of water with Ming Hua same as Mako did, he'd be fucked.  And Ming Hua got around the ice spikes because she could hook onto them and swing over most of them, which Zuko also can't do.

Azula would give anyone on this list a fight, but Zuko is not on equal footing with Azula when she's sane.  Even he acknowledged that.  Zuko was only able to contend with her because of her declining mental state.



Mr. Black Leg said:


> First: this is not impressive .
> 
> Second: They are not fighting in a place with as much water as Bolin and Mako vs them, so yeah, even this that you call impressive(It's not), wouldn't be done .
> 
> Third: We all know all lists have to have at least three items .



Well it is impressive, but you have a point that Desna and Eska don't have that much water on hand here.  Still, I think they have a considerable amount of water, enough to beat Zuko with.



Amae said:


> For one, a fire wall. S1 Zuko was encased ice and broken out of it easily. A  generic fire  with his swords is no joke, either. Zuko has higher DC and defenses than everyone on that list.



Katara's ice shell technique took longer than Desna and Eska's technique did, and it was on a smaller scale than their technique.  And moments after Zuko broke out of the first technique, Katara caught him in another which succeeded in trapping him and making him pass out.  

DC, maybe, but defenses?  Unlikely; firebending is ill suited for defense in the first place.  It has to be actively sustained; if a firebender is defending, they aren't attacking, unlike waterbenders or earthbenders who can create ice and earth walls and resume attacking while under cover.

Also, you can't link to Avatarspirit screenshots like that, the image won't load.  You have to link to them like this:


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## YoungChief (Nov 1, 2014)

Wan said:


> Mako beat Ming Hua because Mako used the lightning technique on her, which Zuko doesn't have.  If Zuko dropped into that pool of water with Ming Hua same as Mako did, he'd be fucked.  And Ming Hua got around the ice spikes because she could hook onto them and swing over most of them, which Zuko also can't do.
> 
> Azula would give anyone on this list a fight, but Zuko is not on equal footing with Azula when she's sane.  Even he acknowledged that.  Zuko was only able to contend with her because of her declining mental state.
> [/url]



Zuko is faster than Ming Hua, watch the fight with Mako again where she loses, she doesn't even react to the lightning at all. Whereas Zuko can redirect, and even jump in the path of Sozin's Comet enhanced lightning (from Azula no less). Their ice spikes aren't doing shit to Zuko and quite frankly Zuko is just a much more powerful bender than Mako so he doesn't need the lightning. His fire has more destructive power and he has more mastery of it than Mako, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of this

Zuko DID contend with her, when they had to flee the air temple or whatever and fought on top of the blimp, the fight was pretty much a draw, you can't deny that. Also Zuko shows off his extreme athleticism in that battle, leaping distances that are easily 30+ feet, and his firepower was on par with that of Azula's, Azula btw can blast through solid rock and cut buildings in half (Zuko's flame whips sliced up some crystals in the S2 finale as well)


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 1, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> Zuko is faster than Ming Hua, watch the fight with Mako again where she loses, she doesn't even react to the lightning at all. Whereas Zuko can redirect, and even jump in the path of *Sozin's Comet enhanced lightning* (from Azula no less). Their ice spikes aren't doing shit to Zuko and quite frankly Zuko is just a much more powerful bender than Mako so he doesn't need the lightning. His fire has more destructive power and he has more mastery of it than Mako, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of this
> 
> Zuko DID contend with her, when they had to flee the air temple or whatever and fought on top of the blimp, the fight was pretty much a draw, you can't deny that. Also Zuko shows off his extreme athleticism in that battle, leaping distances that are easily 30+ feet, and his firepower was on par with that of Azula's, Azula btw can blast through solid rock and cut buildings in half (Zuko's flame whips sliced up some crystals in the S2 finale as well)



Nah, that isn't a thing . Sozin's Comet only enhances firebending from what we saw, saying that is pushing .

But yeah, Zuko is winning this .



Wan said:


> Mako beat Ming Hua because Mako used the lightning technique on her, which Zuko doesn't have.  If Zuko dropped into that pool of water with Ming Hua same as Mako did, he'd be fucked.  And Ming Hua got around the ice spikes because she could hook onto them and swing over most of them, which Zuko also can't do.
> 
> Azula would give anyone on this list a fight, but Zuko is not on equal footing with Azula when she's sane.  Even he acknowledged that.  Zuko was only able to contend with her because of her declining mental state.
> 
> ...



No it's not, we can probably see book one Katara doing this type of thing, it's not impressive .


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## Wan (Nov 1, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> Zuko is faster than Ming Hua, watch the fight with Mako again where she loses, she doesn't even react to the lightning at all. Whereas Zuko can redirect, and even jump in the path of Sozin's Comet enhanced lightning (from Azula no less). Their ice spikes aren't doing shit to Zuko and quite frankly Zuko is just a much more powerful bender than Mako so he doesn't need the lightning. His fire has more destructive power and he has more mastery of it than Mako, and I'm fairly certain you are well aware of this
> 
> Zuko DID contend with her, when they had to flee the air temple or whatever and fought on top of the blimp, the fight was pretty much a draw, you can't deny that. Also Zuko shows off his extreme athleticism in that battle, leaping distances that are easily 30+ feet, and his firepower was on par with that of Azula's, Azula btw can blast through solid rock and cut buildings in half (Zuko's flame whips sliced up some crystals in the S2 finale as well)



Well for one, Mako was closer to Ming Hua and Ming Hua wasn't expecting the lightning.  Even if Ming Hua is somewhat slower than Zuko, it wouldn't make him win; he would still be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of water whips that Ming Hua can send his way.  Zuko isn't particularly more powerful than Mako's firebending.

Zuko and Azula's confrontation in "The Southern Raiders" was after Mai betrayed Azula, so that still can be considered during Azula's declining mental state.  Azula has only blasted through solid rock with her lightning, not with firebending, and saying she "cut buildings in half" is an exaggeration; she cut the corner off a small Old West-style building.



Mr. Black Leg said:


> No it's not, we can probably see book one Katara doing this type of thing, it's not impressive .



And do you have an example of Book 1 Katara doing something like that?


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## LazyWaka (Nov 1, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> Zuko is faster than Ming Hua, watch the fight with Mako again where she loses, she doesn't even react to the lightning at all.



iirc Mako didn't even shoot the lightning at her, but at the water below her. Not much she could have done to react to that.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 1, 2014)

In your own linked ATLA moment she does something similar .



At 0:57 she does way beyond than that, but it's the last book . At 2:07 again better than that(I think this one is book 2 or 1, don't know) . 3:20 again at least you gotta say it's close to that . And 7:46 she does it too, and I think it's book 1 .



At 15:47 I'd say the same thing, better than that . At 17:25 building the bridge and 17:47 is way better than that(This one is book 2) .

Maybe not in book 1, but, any good waterbender would be able to do what you said it was impressive, so it's not .


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## YoungChief (Nov 1, 2014)

Wan said:


> Well for one, Mako was closer to Ming Hua and Ming Hua wasn't expecting the lightning.  Even if Ming Hua is somewhat slower than Zuko, it wouldn't make him win; he would still be overwhelmed by the sheer amount of water whips that Ming Hua can send his way.  Zuko isn't particularly more powerful than Mako's firebending.
> 
> Zuko and Azula's confrontation in "The Southern Raiders" was after Mai betrayed Azula, so that still can be considered during Azula's declining mental state.  Azula has only blasted through solid rock with her lightning, not with firebending, and saying she "cut buildings in half" is an exaggeration; she cut the corner off a small Old West-style building.
> 
> ...



Ming Hua not expecting the lightning is not relevant, Zuko was way closer to Ozai when he redirected it and he wasn't expecting that, Ozai literally just got his powers back. So Mako can dodge the water whips and counter attack in a room full of water but not Zuko who is faster than her, alright then, seems legit. Purely as a martial artist Zuko is superior to Mako, and he has better feats, show me a single impressive destructive feat that Mako has. Also Zuko's strong enough to block Combustion Man's attacks



She seemed fairly sane in that fight, she started slipping into madness in the finale, before that we really didn't see her slipping at all. Makes sense that Zuko could fight with her too considering he was just given a lesson by the dragons. S2 finale, Azula shoots fire at Aang so hard it shatters his crystal armor and sends him flying at least 100 feet away through a stone wall, but no her firebending isn't that strong huh. It didn't slice through an entire building but the point is her firebending is really strong, and Zuko is comparable to it, Mako is not


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## YoungChief (Nov 1, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> iirc Mako didn't even shoot the lightning at her, but at the water below her. Not much she could have done to react to that.



Grapple to the ceiling or something idk. Watch the fight again and pause the video, the point where the lightning hits is pretty much where her water whips are, he really didn't need a room full of water to do that to her at all, she didn't react, end of story


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 1, 2014)

Sozins comet did enhance lighting. When Azula used lighting against Zuko in their duel it was bigger than the lighting Ozai used against Zuko. Why wouldn't it enhance lighting in the first place anyway its not like its a separate element from firebending, its just a subset of it and the comet enhances firebending.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 1, 2014)

Makes sense and all, but no one said it, so we don't roll with the assumption, and we're certainly not basing off our facts on " this looks bigger ", for reasons like the sizes can vary and it was the final part of Avatar, we could expect everyone going all out .


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## YoungChief (Nov 1, 2014)

This is part of her lightning blast from that episode, she actually aimed it at Katara, not sure how it shot up like this though. Looked impressive so I assumed it was enhanced by the comet


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 1, 2014)

I also agree that it would make sense, but none was said about it, we can't assume it .


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 1, 2014)

Well Zuko still kicks all their asses anyway. He has far more experience fighting waterbenders and their techniques than any other character on this list has fighting firebenders. He was about equal to Katara until book 3 when she learned bloodbending and pulling water from out of the air and no one here is as good as book 3 Katara. He was also matching Azula's fire in their Agni kai and I don't really see how he mental state declining would reduce the power of her fire, more just making her do stupid shit.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 1, 2014)

Now I haven't watched Avatar but I have a question. Why should Azula's decent into madness take away from Zuko's ability to take her on? Going crazy wouldn't make her any weaker or less skilled, heck in most cases characters actually fight better as well as harder when they're crazy as opposed to when they are sane. At most her lack of sanity would effect her strategic abilities but otherwise I'm not seeing how her being crazy is what allowed Zuko to survive against her as he'd still have to be at least close to her level I would think. hmm

Sorry if I sound like an idiot, just curious is all.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 1, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> Now I haven't watched Avatar but I have a question. Why should Azula's decent into madness take away from Zuko's ability to take her on? Going crazy wouldn't make her any weaker or less skilled, heck in most cases characters actually fight better as well as harder when they're crazy as opposed to when they are sane. At most her lack of sanity would effect her strategic abilities but otherwise I'm not seeing how her being crazy is what allowed Zuko to survive against her as he'd still have to be at least close to her level I would think. hmm
> 
> Sorry if I sound like an idiot, just curious is all.



They were pretty much equal, but losing her grip on her sanity was affecting how well she used her skill set which is overall superior to Zuko's. He wasn't losing out in power and that's where the two were equal, but he was mostly able to totally keep her in check prior to her using lightning on Katara due to her losing her grip and not using her skills as well as she possibly could. It wasn't the sort of berserk madness or anger that buffs you but makes you lose control.


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## Fujita (Nov 1, 2014)

Azula's normally agile and quick-witted. She's precise as much as she is powerful. She avoids the Gaang's attacks without her own bending (though she's got the Dai Li as backup), and when she fought Aang on the drill, you see her doing things like countering water attacks just with her fingertips. 

But when she goes insane, she loses that kind of skill, and starts slipping. She literally trips up against Zuko, falling to the ground (interesting contrast with what happens in The Chase, where she manages to regain her balance after Aang leads her into a trap, while Zuko plunges straight down ). 

Think of it like a boxing match where two people are equally strong, but one of them is off-balance and generally not in as good of a position to land a hit.


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## Rivers (Nov 1, 2014)

Adamant soul said:


> Now I haven't watched Avatar but I have a question. Why should Azula's decent into madness take away from Zuko's ability to take her on? Going crazy wouldn't make her any weaker or less skilled, heck in most cases characters actually fight better as well as harder when they're crazy as opposed to when they are sane. At most her lack of sanity would effect her strategic abilities but otherwise I'm not seeing how her being crazy is what allowed Zuko to survive against her as he'd still have to be at least close to her level I would think. hmm
> 
> Sorry if I sound like an idiot, just curious is all.



Azula's deadliest asset was her cool and cunning demeanor. Nothing really fazed her. This worked well with her perfectionist attitude, and flawless fighting style.

Even, when she was cornered by the entire Avatar team, lost all her firebending, free falling to certain death or outnumbered by 40+ Dai Lee agents - she had a plan. If she couldnt overpower her adversary, she would outwit, bluff or even intimidate them to join her side.

Without her sanity, her perfectionism was gone. Her skill, stances and forms of firebending became sloppy, more reckless. She lost her ability to form plan B. Her nerves were absolutely shot. Just the idea of Zuko matching her firepower broke her cool, confident demeanor. Her fighting form wavered and she ends up tripping up to that.

Zuko explicitly states something happened to her which gave him the chance to take her down 1v1. Up to the beginning of that fight Zuko basically admits he'd need  help to fight her.


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## Rivers (Nov 1, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> Also Zuko shows off his extreme athleticism in that battle, leaping distances that are easily 30+ feet, and his firepower was on par with that of Azula's, Azula btw can blast through solid rock and cut buildings in half (Zuko's flame whips sliced up some crystals in the S2 finale as well)



Zuko's Fire Whips can trump Ming Hua's 6+ Water Tendrils? Didnt Zuko's Fire Whips stalemate Katara's 2 Water Arms?

Ming Hua's Tendrils can slice through solid stone statues - like butter too. She can even throw the tips into spinning ice shards when you least expect it. Having 6+ stone-slicing Tendrils lashing out you and the others throwing Ice at you is not a waterbending technique Zuko has faced.



YoungChief said:


> S2 finale, Azula shoots fire at Aang so hard it shatters his crystal armor and sends him flying at least 100 feet away through a stone wall, but no her firebending isn't that strong huh.



That was a very charged Fire Propulsion technique unique to Azula. We dont see Zuko having that part of his skillset. His firebending kicks and punches are equal in power....but that doesnt mean he knows all the firebending techniques Azula does now...


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## Amae (Nov 1, 2014)

> She can even throw the tips into spinning ice shards when you least expect it.


 Zuko's intercepted faster attacks and people. 



> Having 6+ stone-slicing Tendrils lashing out you and the others throwing Ice at you is not a waterbending technique Zuko has faced.


Neither had Mako and he killed (?) the cunt.  Zuko can kick and parry boulders coming at him at high speed with just physical strength, augmenting that with his fire bending (a single blast can bust through earth bending defenses), as well building level defenses and DC leaves me to think Ming Hua'll be extra crispy by the end of the fight.


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## Wan (Nov 1, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> In your own linked ATLA moment she does something similar .
> 
> 
> 
> At 0:57 she does way beyond than that, but it's the last book . At 2:07 again better than that(I think this one is book 2 or 1, don't know)



Both of these are from Book 3, and I'd only say the second one matches Desna and Eska's feat.



> 3:20 again at least you gotta say it's close to that . And 7:46 she does it too, and I think it's book 1 .



Raising a single ice spike/pillar is not close to creating a whole field of ice spikes, no.



> At 15:47 I'd say the same thing, better than that . At 17:25 building the bridge and 17:47 is way better than that(This one is book 2) .



That's not even a combat feat, that's just slowly making a bubble.  A small bridge made with several moves is not comparable either, and that last feat still doesn't seem quite on the scale of Desna and Eska's feat.



> Maybe not in book 1, but, any good waterbender would be able to do what you said it was impressive, so it's not .



Katara =/= "any good waterbender".



YoungChief said:


> Ming Hua not expecting the lightning is not relevant, Zuko was way closer to Ozai when he redirected it and he wasn't expecting that, Ozai literally just got his powers back. So Mako can dodge the water whips and counter attack in a room full of water but not Zuko who is faster than her, alright then, seems legit. Purely as a martial artist Zuko is superior to Mako, and he has better feats, show me a single impressive destructive feat that Mako has. Also Zuko's strong enough to block Combustion Man's attacks.



Mako is quicker with lightning charging than even Ozai was; the precious second that Ozai took to charge his lightning gave Zuko the chance to use the redirection technique.  Mako was fast enough that he gave no sign to Ming Hua before shooting the lightning.

As for Mako's destructive feats, here's one:



That's not really relevant to how Mako and Zuko compare in martial arts skill, though.  Zuko may have "blocked" one of Combustion Man's explosions, but it still pushed him back and knocked him off the side of a cliff, it's not like he no-selled it.



> She seemed fairly sane in that fight, she started slipping into madness in the finale, before that we really didn't see her slipping at all. Makes sense that Zuko could fight with her too considering he was just given a lesson by the dragons. S2 finale, Azula shoots fire at Aang so hard it shatters his crystal armor and sends him flying at least 100 feet away through a stone wall, but no her firebending isn't that strong huh. It didn't slice through an entire building but the point is her firebending is really strong, and Zuko is comparable to it, Mako is not



Azula was alread showing signs of slipping sanity.  Her voice performance was more unhinged than usual, and she had the telltale sign of no longer using her two fingers when firebending, but her whole fist.  Up until that point her style was always marked by using her fingers, not fists.

Breaking Aang's armor is not the same as blasting through solid rock.  And she knocked Aang into a stone wall, but not _through_ it. 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Sozins comet did enhance lighting. When Azula used lighting against Zuko in their duel it was bigger than the lighting Ozai used against Zuko. Why wouldn't it enhance lighting in the first place anyway its not like its a separate element from firebending, its just a subset of it and the comet enhances firebending.



And in the rest of the fight, Azula's lightning was back at regular size whenever she shot it at Katara.


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## Rivers (Nov 1, 2014)

Amae said:


> Zuko's intercepted faster attacks and people.



Multiple times? In quick succession? 

Ming Hua can launch 3 projectiles with 2 Tendrils. So with 6 Tendrils she can rapid fire *at least 9 projectiles* at Zuko.

Zuko even with his swords has been tagged with slower, clunkier earthbended rocks from...bully fodder.   



> Neither had Mako and he killed (?) the cunt.



Lightningbending is good to have against Waterbenders you know.  



> Zuko can kick and parry boulders coming at him at high speed with just physical strength, augmenting that with his fire bending (a single blast can bust through earth bending defenses), as well building level defenses and DC leaves me to think Ming Hua'll be extra crispy by the end of the fight.



His physical stats won't help him tank stone-slicing Ice attacks. Ming Hua's standard Water Tendrils can even crumble stone!

She is the most agile waterbender we've seen in the Avatarverse, and when she's not dodging Zuko's firebending, she only needs one of her 6+ Tendrils to slip in...get a hold on Zuko's limb...then ragdoll him defenseless!


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## Wan (Nov 1, 2014)

Amae said:


> Neither had Mako and he killed (?) the cunt.  Zuko can kick and parry boulders coming at him at high speed with just physical strength, augmenting that with his fire bending (a single blast can bust through earth bending defenses), as well building level defenses and DC leaves me to think Ming Hua'll be extra crispy by the end of the fight.



Mako killed her with lightning, which Zuko doesn't have.  And no, Zuko has not kicked and parried boulders coming right at him at high speeds.  He's deflected rocks, not boulders, with his swords.


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## YoungChief (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> Mako is quicker with lightning charging than even Ozai was; the precious second that Ozai took to charge his lightning gave Zuko the chance to use the redirection technique.  Mako was fast enough that he gave no sign to Ming Hua before shooting the lightning.
> 
> As for Mako's destructive feats, here's one:
> 
> ...


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2014)

YoungChief said:


> First off Mako's attack really wasn't that much faster, Ozai's did take about 1 second however there are two things I should point out. Zuko and Ozai were having a conversation, not in a death battle, so Ming Hua would have been more ready for a counterattack than Zuko would be. Second off, Zuko didn't move until after the blast was shot



They were having a _hostile_ conversation, and the only reason Ozai wasn't attacking Zuko was because he had no firebending, and Zuko had the edge with swords.  Zuko had to be expecting an attack the moment the eclipse ended.  And Zuko not moving until after the blast doesn't help your point.  That means he only managed to react at the last moment, and wasn't reacting when Ozai started the technique.



> Even more impressive of course, is in the finale vs Azula, he's able to see the lightning in slow motion and intercept it, again, AFTER it was fired he could do this. He outright showed he could literally dodge the lightning right there if he wanted to, btw Azula's lightning is faster than your Korra hypersonic reaction calc (mach 5 vs mach 12). How is Zuko not massively faster than Ming Hua again?



He showed he could outright dodge it, yes (it's not like his feat of intercepting Azula was easy, though -- he had to do it so quickly that he didn't pull off the redirection quite properly, resulting in injuring himself and being out for the rest of the fight.  And with Mako's lightning, it' wasn't an issue of dodging the lightning -- Mako aimed for the pool of water.  Even if Ming Hua saw it coming, she wouldn't have time to do anything about it, even if she would have had time to dodge it under normal circumstances.

You can argue that Zuko has an edge on Ming Hua on speed, but he's not going to be massively faster than her.  The Avatar universe is not a place where massive differences in character speeds is a thing.  Zuko actually appears in Legend of Korra and is unsuccessful at dodging Ghazan's boulders.  He's an old fart at that point, so he's probably somewhat slower than his younger self, but he's still fairly spry and is not going to be massively slower.

Also, the Korra reaction calc has a bare minimum of about Mach 5 assuming that it was a _gas_ explosive that Korra reacted to.  If it was a solid explosive, the minimum speed would be more around Mach 11/12.



> Zuko blocking Combustion Man is pretty relevant considering I was using it as a point to prove Zuko shits on Mako.



You'd think that, but as it turns out, Mako also has a feat of withstanding a combustion blast from P'li, and without needing a sustained fire wall like Zuko needed.





> Also how are martial arts skills not relevant in a series about martial artists fighting?



Martial arts skill is not relevant when talking about raw firebending power.



> When Aang is blown away by Azula we see the rock explode, how was he not knocked through it?



...because we don't see him going _through_ anything.  Simple.  It kicks up a cloud of dust and debris, sure, but that's not the same as going clean through the rock.


----------



## Amae (Nov 2, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Multiple times? In quick succession?



This is irrelevant. Fact is, he has dodged something far faster than her projectiles to the point whether she launches them in quick succession is of little consequence. 



> Lightningbending is good to have against Waterbenders you know.



You made it a point to emphasize Zuko never coming across Ming Hua's technique. My only point in referencing Mako beating her with no prior experience of it was it being not being relevant to his superior ability and actually winning (so mentioning Mako having lightning is pointless).



			
				Wan said:
			
		

> You'd think that, but as it turns out, Mako also has a feat of withstanding a combustion blast from P'li, and without needing a sustained fire wall like Zuko needed.


It exploded nearby him and he was only pushed back by the explosion without it actually touching him. How is that equal to actually blocking a direct attack?



> And no, Zuko has not kicked and parried boulders coming right at him at high speeds. He's deflected rocks, not boulders, with his swords.


Semantics. I wasn't trying to embellish.



> As for Mako's destructive feats, here's one:


What did he even destroy? The only thing noteworthy is the length and size of the flame, which is only that way because he was a on plane going across.



> And Zuko not moving until after the blast doesn't help your point. That means he only managed to react at the last moment, and wasn't reacting when Ozai started the technique.


Wut? It makes the feat even more impressive.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> They were having a _hostile_ conversation, and the only reason Ozai wasn't attacking Zuko was because he had no firebending, and Zuko had the edge with swords.  Zuko had to be expecting an attack the moment the eclipse ended.  And Zuko not moving until after the blast doesn't help your point.  That means he only managed to react at the last moment, and wasn't reacting when Ozai started the technique.



Now you are running your mouth . He only moving when the lightning was so close makes it better, not worse . 

(Let's assume a bullet that can reach 50 km) Try to react to a bullet at 50 km away, and then try to react to it at 10 meters . That's the reason why the standard distance is a thing . From 20 meters away, you have to be 40(IIRC) times faster to blitz that person . From a shorter distance you'd have to be less fast, and from a longer distance you'd have to be faster .

It's not a matter of " he could only react at the last moment " . It's a thing of something is extremely close to you, so you'll have to compensate the fact of being closer with more speed than it would take if it was further .

Let's say: 

100 m/s projectile going at your face and it starts at 100 m from you .

1 second to react .

100 m/s projectile going at your face and it starts 1 meter from you .

100 - 1 
1 ----  x 

0,01 seconds to react .

You are absurdly wrong about this .


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2014)

Amae said:


> It exploded nearby him and he was only pushed back by the explosion without it actually touching him. How is that equal to actually blocking a direct attack?



Hah, I think I saw you claiming that it impacted on the pillar first, but then you went back and edited it to this.  Yes, that's what I thought at first too, but going back and checking the video frame-by-frame showed that P'li's attack curved around the pillar and detonated about a foot or so away from Mako, with nothing in between him and the explosion.

You don't get pushed back by an explosion without it "actually touching" you.  He got knocked back by the force of the attack, the same attack that was destroying earth walls and making small craters.  So either Mako just tanked the attack -- unlikely, since his clothes aren't even slightly tattered afterwards -- or he protected himself with firebending and got knocked back much like how Combustion Man's attack knocked back Zuko.



> What did he even destroy? The only thing noteworthy is the length and size of the flame, which is only that way because he was a on plane going across.



He doesn't exactly destroy anything, but he does demonstrate more length and size to the flame, more than anything Zuko ever demonstrated outside of the comet.




Mr. Black Leg said:


> You are absurdly wrong about this.


Yeah I'll concede that Zuko only moving when the bolt was already fired is impressive.  But there's still the point that he had more time to be mentally prepared to do something, even for a second, than Ming Hua had with Mako.


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## Amae (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> So either Mako just tanked the attack -- unlikely, since his clothes aren't even slightly tattered afterwards -- or he protected himself with firebending and got knocked back much like how Combustion Man's attack knocked back Zuko.


Or neither because it's cartoon that doesn't strictly have to abide by the laws of physics ... your conclusions are flawed (especially considering Mako did not firebend whatsoever). Mako and Bolin got knocked back by the explosions without the flames actually touching (which is what I meant by "not touching"), that's the conclusion one can reasonably come to. 



> He got knocked back by the force of the attack, the same attack that was destroying earth walls and making small craters


When they were directly hit, yeah.



> He doesn't exactly destroy anything, but he does demonstrate more length and size to the flame, more than anything Zuko ever demonstrated outside of the comet.


Only if it mattered. How often does Zuko even do sustained blasts ...



Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yeah I'll concede that Zuko only moving when the bolt was already fired is impressive.  But there's still the point that he had more time to be mentally prepared to do something, even for a second, than Ming Hua had with Mako.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Nov 2, 2014)

Is he seriously drawing conclusions from clothing damage again?


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2014)

Amae said:


> Or neither because it's cartoon that doesn't strictly have to abide by the laws of physics ... your conclusions are flawed (especially considering Mako did not firebend whatsoever). Mako and Bolin got knocked back by the explosions without the flames actually touching (which is what I meant by "not touching"), that's the conclusion one can reasonably come to.





One, Mako had his arms raised, indicating that he did throw up a quick firebending defense.

Two, the "flame" part of the explosion clearly _did_ touch him.  And either way, an explosion doesn't do damage through "flame"; it's the explosive force that tears things apart.  Flame doesn't tear apart stone, the explosive force does, explosive force that Mako somehow was unscathed by.



> When they were directly hit, yeah.



Because a foot makes a huge difference to an explosion, right?  I'm sure you'd be comfortable detonating a bomb a foot from yourself.



> Only if it mattered. How often does Zuko even do sustained blasts ...



Not very often.  So Mako did something that Zuko hasn't even demonstrated himself.



> Is he seriously drawing conclusions from clothing damage again?



Hey, if you want to argue that Mako straight tanked an explosion right in front of his face, be my guest.


----------



## Rivers (Nov 2, 2014)

Amae said:


> This is irrelevant. Fact is, he has dodged something far faster than her projectiles to the point whether she launches them in quick succession is of little consequence.



Nope. Fact is, he has also been tagged with something much slower *when the number of projectiles is multiplied.  *That's what happened. Zuko isn't going to be reacting to ONE super fast move by Ming Hua, she can fire multiple, at any given time. Even as he is already preoccupied reacting to the three in front of him. 



> You made it a point to emphasize Zuko never coming across Ming Hua's technique. My only point in referencing Mako beating her with no prior experience of it was it being not being relevant to his superior ability and actually winning (so mentioning Mako having lightning is pointless).



So you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now? 

Your post was actually a poor strawman attempt or you're simply ignorant of the obvious flawed A>B>C logic you were pushing. Mako beating ultimate form Ming Hua - doesn't mean jack about Zuko beating her. Even if they both have the same lack of expereince against her technique.

The only reason someone would even reply like you did, was if to imply, Zuko could do exactly what Mako did to beat her Ultimate Form. We all know he can't, and yet you mention Mako anyway...? Just being pedantic?

Mako definitely has a superior ability against Ming Hua, one that Zuko DOESN'T HAVE. Ming Hua's ultimate form makes her tremendously susceptible to Lightningbending - all the waterbending she uses is usually PHYSICALLY connected to her body.


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## Amae (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> One, Mako had his arms raised, indicating that he did throw up a quick firebending defense.


The only thing you've proven is Mako had his arms raised. Try again. Mako puts him his arms up in defense, no flame other then P'Li's is seen.



> Two, the "flame" part of the explosion clearly _did_ touch him.


Prove it. 



> And either way, an explosion doesn't do damage through "flame"; it's the explosive force that tears things apart.  Flame doesn't tear apart stone, the explosive force does, explosive force that Mako somehow was unscathed by.


Such insight.

Presumably being further away from the explosion would mean you'd take less damage, no? With that in mind and considering the explosion only did light damage to the pillar, maybe it wasn't particularly powerful. I'm not committing to that position, it's just an alternative look at things ....

Because a foot makes a huge difference to an explosion, right?  I'm sure you'd be comfortable detonating a bomb a foot from yourself.[/QUOTE]That's fiction for you. P'li's blasts also vary in size and destruction pretty much consistently. 



> Not very often.  So Mako did something that Zuko hasn't even demonstrated himself.


He's done something no top tier firebender has demonstrated without Sozin's Comet - Mako must be the best firebender ever, that's the only reasonable thing we can conclude from that fact.



> Your post was actually a poor strawman attempt or you're simply ignorant of the obvious flawed A>B>C logic you were pushing. Mako beating ultimate form Ming Hua - doesn't mean jack about Zuko beating her.



Or maybe, just maybe, it was simply a counter point to the flawed argument that Ming Hua having X amount of tendrils and Zuko never encountering that much at once (that's usually the case in vs battles) means it'll be particularly difficult to counter. That blatantly ignores the speed and power advantage Zuko has over her. 

Stop attributing elements to my post I neither said or implied, it's annoying (I don't particularly care whatever motive's at the root of it).




Rivers said:


> Nope.


Frankly, your argument is stupid. Zuko dodges an attack that's, say, Y amount of speed with no problem from 2 or 3 meters away with no problem. Why would he have a particular trouble dodging an attack that doesn't even move at half of the speed from a likelier further distance (waterbenders and all), even if one is coming immediately after the other?


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2014)

Amae said:


> The only thing you've proven is Mako had his arms raised. Try again. Mako puts him his arms up in defense, no flame other then P'Li's is seen.
> 
> Prove it.





The fire is clearly touching him, even obscuring part of his shorts there.  If you're fine with idea of him simply tanking the force and heat of the explosion without so much as a scratch, then I guess there's no conclusive evidence of firebending from him.



> Presumably being further away from the explosion would mean you'd take less damage, no? With that in mind and considering the explosion only did light damage to the pillar, maybe it wasn't particularly powerful. I'm not committing to that position, it's just an alternative look at things ....



"Presumably"?  Can you quantify how much weaker it should be?  And I'm not sure it only does light damage to the pillar; in the instant after the explosion clears, I don't see the pillar there any more.  Either way, you can clearly see some debris being blown off from the pillar, and since the explosion was no closer to Mako than the pillar, at least that much force and heat hit Mako.



> That's fiction for you. P'li's blasts also vary in size and destruction pretty much consistently.



"That's fiction" isn't an argument.



> He's done something no top tier firebender has demonstrated without Sozin's Comet - Mako must be the best firebender ever, that's the only reasonable thing we can conclude from that fact.



Nice strawman.


----------



## Rivers (Nov 2, 2014)

Amae said:


> Or maybe, just maybe, it was simply a counter point to the flawed argument that Ming Hua having X amount of tendrils and Zuko never encountering that much at once (that's usually the case in vs battles) means it'll be particularly difficult to counter. That blatantly ignores the speed and power advantage Zuko has over her.



Can't really be that simple a counter point, when flawed reasonings like A>B>C logic and strawman arguments can be derived from it. 

Also, if we go by precedence the closest thing Zuko has fought similar to Ming Hua's style was Book II Katara. His Fire Whips at best stalemated Katara's 2 water arms. So it's fair reasoning he would have a harder time against Ming Hua's 6+ Water Tendrils.



> Stop attributing elements to my post I neither said or implied, it's annoying (I don't particularly care whatever motive's at the root of it).



I can only call it as I see it. What I saw was a downplay of Ming Hua by putting her below Mako and then putting him below Zuko. While ignoring crucial facts that Lightningbending allowed Mako the effective victory over Ming Hua. Next time dont use such vague arguments and chose to be ignorant of the consequences.

You chose to ignore Lightningbending when you specifically mention Mako's victory over Ming Hua. Why is it reasonable I should also ignore that?


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## Amae (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> The fire is clearly touching him, even obscuring part of his shorts there.


No, it is not. The fire is clearly further ahead, the only thing touching him is the lighting from the flame. Just look at the position of the destroyed parts of the pillar that are clearly ahead of Mako and Bolin.



> "That's fiction" isn't an argument.



It's a sure way to explain why the laws of physics are being violated in most instances. 



> Nice strawman.


That was a joke (and surprisingly factual if you only count the first sentence), actually. Mako's power has pretty much nothing to do with this argument.



> Can't really be that simple a counter point, when flawed reasonings like A>B>C logic and strawman arguments can be derived from it.


That actually isn't what I said, though (Mako beat Ming Hua, therefore Zuko can beat her). The only comparison I was drawing was Mako's lack of experience fighting against such a waterbender ...



> I can only call it as I see it. What I saw was a downplay of Ming Hua by putting her below Mako and then putting him below Zuko.


You let your preconceived notions color your judgement and your post is how I see it.



> Next time dont use such vague arguments and be ignorant of the consequences.


Or maybe you should stop assuming people have ulterior motives, distorting arguments to claim logical fallacies are being made, and just take text at face value?



> Also, if we go by precedence the closest thing Zuko has fought similar to Ming Hua's style was Book II Katara. His Fire Whips at best stalemated Katara's 2 water arms. So it's fair reasoning he would have a harder time against Ming Hua's 6+ Water Tendrils.


Book 2 Zuko =/= Book 3 Zuko. 

Why would he have to fight Ming Hua with fire whips when that clearly isn't the most effective way of dealing with her?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 2, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Nope. Fact is, he has also been tagged with something much slower *when the number of projectiles is multiplied.  *That's what happened. Zuko isn't going to be reacting to ONE super fast move by Ming Hua, she can fire multiple, at any given time. Even as he is already preoccupied reacting to the three in front of him.



You are saying that Ming Hua, or whatever her name is, is not only going to attack first but only because it's lots of projectiles it's going to hit, even though Zuko's faster and can fight off multiple projectiles by throwing multiple projectiles of his own . 

Good one .





> So you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now?
> 
> Your post was actually a poor strawman attempt or you're simply ignorant of the obvious flawed A>B>C logic you were pushing. Mako beating ultimate form Ming Hua - doesn't mean jack about Zuko beating her. Even if they both have the same lack of expereince against her technique.
> 
> ...



Lightning bending isn't the absolute necessary to beat Ming Hua . He can attack her body directly, he's a little faster and can do multiple fire attacks, that are, surprise, surprise, faster than Ming Hua's .



Wan said:


> Yeah I'll concede that Zuko only moving when the bolt was already fired is impressive.  But there's still the point that he had more time to be mentally prepared to do something, even for a second, than Ming Hua had with Mako.



By mentally prepare are you talking about the fact that he knew Ozai might attack ? Yeah, maybe, but Ming Hua was in the middle of the fight, she had adrenaline going through her and was ready to what he might shoot, this also should be taken into account, but despite this she didn't react to lightning . So, yes, Zuko has the upper hand in speed .


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2014)

Amae said:


> No, it is not. The fire is clearly further ahead, the only thing touching him is the lighting from the flame. Just look at the position of the destroyed parts of the pillar that are clearly ahead of Mako and Bolin.



Lighting from the flame...that _is_ the flame.



The flash from the the explosion is touching him.  He got knocked back very forcefully.  The explosion, for all intents and purposes, hit him.



> It's a sure way to explain why the laws of physics are being violated in most instances.



It's a cheap explanation, sure, but there's no reason that would need explaining in the first place.



> That actually isn't what I said, though (Mako beat Ming Hua, therefore Zuko can beat her). The only comparison I was drawing was Mako's lack of experience fighting against such a waterbender ...



And the thing that helped Mako's lack of experience was his ability to pull the lightning technique.  Which, again, Zuko doesn't have.



> Book 2 Zuko =/= Book 3 Zuko.



Does Zuko have a better showing against a waterbender in Book 3 for comparison?


> Why would he have to fight Ming Hua with fire whips when that clearly isn't the most effective way of dealing with her?



What other effective way is there to deal with her?  Regular fire blasts?  Water whips/arms have been shown several times to trump fire blasts.  First with Katara against Azula:



and then with Ming Hua against Mako:




If anything, Zuko's fire whips stand to give Zuko a better chance than Mako had with just firebending, since Zuko did better against Katara's whips than Azula did and Mako never demonstrated the fire whip technique.



> By mentally prepare are you talking about the fact that he knew Ozai might attack ? Yeah, maybe, but Ming Hua was in the middle of the fight, she had adrenaline going through her and was ready to what he might shoot, this also should be taken into account, but despite this she didn't react to lightning . So, yes, Zuko has the upper hand .



That, and Ozai took a second longer than Mako did to charge the lightning.  Ming Hua didn't know that Mako could shoot lightning.  She figured she could defend against any fire he would shoot, which would have been true.  She wasn't prepared for a lightning bolt aimed at the pool beneath her.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> That, and Ozai took a second longer than Mako did to charge the lightning.  Ming Hua didn't know that Mako could shoot lightning.  She figured she could defend against any fire he would shoot, which would have been true.  She wasn't prepared for a lightning bolt aimed at the pool beneath her.



Doesn't really matter . Zuko's faster anyways, since to defend from lightning you gotta be able to defend yourself prepared or not .

Amon didn't know Mako had it, but he could still dodge it .

And if she was able to react she could get herself outta the pool .

And, again, Zuko only defended from lightning against Ozai when it was already fired, so the point still stands .


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## Wan (Nov 2, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Amon didn't know Mako had it, but he could still dodge it .



Mako was farther away in that instance, and his movements were more blatant.  Mako charged his lightning faster against Ming Hua than he did against Amon.



> And if she was able to react she could get herself outta the pool .



How, exactly?  She moves with waterbending, any water would have come _from_ the pool.  Aiming at the pool rather than Ming Hua meant Mako's moves were less clear to Ming Hua, his target was closer, and Ming Hua had less of a chance to realize what Mako was doing.  She may have seen what he was doing, but didn't have time to figure out exactly what he was doing.  Time Zuko had against Ozai.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 2, 2014)

Wan said:


> Mako was farther away in that instance, and his movements were more blatant.  Mako charged his lightning faster against Ming Hua than he did against Amon.



No he didn't, and even if he did, Amon was in his back against Mako, so he didn't see the lightning until it was fired :

[YOUTUBE]hfDOXpfHQJE[/YOUTUBE]

- Mako shoots .
- Amon turns .
- Amon gets outta the way .

0:19 to 0:20 .



> How, exactly?  She moves with waterbending, any water would have come _from_ the pool.  Aiming at the pool rather than Ming Hua meant Mako's moves were less clear to Ming Hua, his target was closer, and Ming Hua had less of a chance to realize what Mako was doing.  She may have seen what he was doing, but didn't have time to figure out exactly what he was doing.  Time Zuko had against Ozai.



Going up the place they got in, or going anywhere with rocks and take out the water of her arms .

She could have done plenty of things if she could react, actually .


----------



## Esket (Nov 2, 2014)

Ain't no way he beating Eska & Desna together, Kya, or Ming Hua. With Tonraq and Unalaq it could probably be 50/50 with me still favor them.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Nov 2, 2014)

How would he lose to Kya but be 50/50 with the water tribe leader brothers? They're above her.


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## Esket (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm seeing it as her being trained by Katara making her more likely to win. Regarding the brothers I can't really remember anything impressive by them, but I did say probably not most definitely with me favoring them more so. And this is me being generous to Zuko.


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## Rivers (Nov 3, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> No he didn't, and even if he did, Amon was in his back against Mako, so he didn't see the lightning until it was fired :
> 
> [YOUTUBE]hfDOXpfHQJE[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...



Compared to Ming Hua, Amon only had to move a fraction of the distance (one dodge roll) to completely escape the Lightning damage (area of effect).



> Going up the place they got in, or going anywhere with rocks and take out the water of her arms.



That's suppose to be easier to do than one side dodge?  

Pulling herself up and clear out of the water, even after she had the forward momentum of actually chasing towards Mako? Meaning she was actually actively getting closer to the source of the lightning.  




And it's not even an instinctive/reflexive maneuver you're expecting her to do (i.e. Amon sidestepping a harmful projectile travelling at him). She has to realise Mako was aiming at the pool (NOT HER), conclude it was completely surrounding her, and then switch focus - to actually look for a place to grip above her, reach up and then completely pull herself out making sure she loses all contact of the pool surface below her...

And that would be only AFTER...first stopping her mad rush towards Mako.



> She could have done plenty of things if she could react, actually.



No, there was only really one option. Since she was smack bang right in the middle of the pool. And it would involve a hell lot more than one sidestep/dodge roll wouldn't it?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Compared to Ming Hua, Amon only had to move a fraction of the distance (one dodge roll) to completely escape the Lightning damage (area of effect).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To benders, especially the likes of Ming Hua or Toph that rely on their bending to do everyday things, bending is as natural as walking and if she could have done it, she would have, problem is she couldn't .

Also she didn't need to see that Mako was aiming at the pool to get her, etc. She only had to dodge the lightning, that was clearly going in her direction and it was easy to see the lightning coming .


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## Rivers (Nov 3, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> To benders, especially the likes of Ming Hua or Toph that rely on their bending to do everyday things, bending is as natural as walking and if she could have done it, she would have, problem is she couldn't .



So you agree the actual movements and the steps involved is more complicated than Amon's dodge roll?



> Also she didn't need to see that Mako was aiming at the pool to get her, etc. She only had to dodge the lightning, that was clearly going in her direction and it was easy to see the lightning coming .



That doesn't make sense. To dodge the lightning you have to know it's target. If Mako fired Lightning at the area 4 meters IN FRONT of you, you wouldn't actually get hit if that was solid ground...at worst getting a cloud of smoke in your face. 

Again youre asking her to do something instinctive, and for that scenario she could have just stepped back or to the side, reflexively if she was only to  move away from the Lightning's path (exactly what Amon did) but...she STILL would have gotten fried since the pool makes the Lightning's area of effect dozens of meters in diameter.

She only had to dodge lightning huh? Lightning the size of a pool then? If Mako was aiming at her...you might have a point, a side step would have proved her reflexes were Lightning timing (like what happened to Amon).

However even if she moved as fast, and in the same way as Amon did against Mako's previous Lightning (side step)...she's DEAD, the pools takes the difficulty up another level. In other words you're actually asking her to *be faster *than what Amon's been shown...


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> So you agree the actual movements and the steps involved is more complicated than Amon's dodge roll?



I said just the opposite, for Ming Hua, bending water and treating it like an arm is something she does in her daily basis, so using water to push her up, and this way she wouldn't have been hit, or just throw her in some of the rocks right next to her, going up or going side is basically the same as side-stepping . 





> That doesn't make sense. To dodge the lightning you have to know it's target. If Mako fired Lightning at the area 4 meters IN FRONT of you, you wouldn't actually get hit if that was solid ground...at worst getting a cloud of smoke in your face.
> 
> Again youre asking her to do something instinctive, and for that scenario she could have just stepped back or to the side, reflexively if she was only to  move away from the Lightning's path (exactly what Amon did) but...she STILL would have gotten fried since the pool makes the Lightning's area of effect dozens of meters in diameter.
> 
> ...



" Lightning in the size of a pool " ? You are basically saying that she can't react to lightning, saying that lightning is already on the water before she makes a move, If she was fast enough to react to lightning:

- Sees lighnting going to hit the water, BEFORE IT HITS THE WATER .
- Goes up/side while disconects from water .
- Not hit .

Amon could have done it given that situation, he would see the lightning coming to the water and get out of the water by going up or something like that . 

But anyways, I don't see the point in discussing this, it's established that Zuko is comfortably scaled to mach 12, while Ming Hua is scaled mach 5 .


----------



## Rivers (Nov 3, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I said just the opposite, for Ming Hua, bending water and treating it like an arm is something she does in her daily basis, so using water to push her up, and this way she wouldn't have been hit, or just throw her in some of the rocks right next to her, going up or going side is basically the same as side-stepping .



Pretty sure Amon (a martial artist) sidestepping is at least just as natural as it is for Ming Hua to use her water arms. Big difference is Amon has to naturally move a fraction of the distance (a couple feet) while Ming Hua needs to move a lot (40 feet at least). 



> " Lightning in the size of a pool " ? You are basically saying that she can't react to lightning, saying that lightning is already on the water before she makes a move, If she was fast enough to react to lightning:



You dont get it. You can react to lightning before it reaches YOURSELF. That proves you can react in time. Amon moved out of the way (a little bit) as the Lightning reached his position. That didnt even happen for Ming Hua. 

The Lightning bolt never reached her but landed at least 15 feet IN FRONT of her. 



> - Sees lighnting going to hit the water, BEFORE IT HITS THE WATER .
> - Goes up/side while disconects from water .
> - Not hit .



You just said Ming Hua doesnt even need to see that Lightning was travelling to the water...? But Now you agree she actually has to reaslise Lightning is NOT aimed at her, and therefore doesnt waste the time of side-stepping...but plan to move much much further away (much more than Amon).



> Amon could have done it given that situation, he would see the lightning coming to the water and get out of the water by going up or something like that .



Disagree, he would have been fucked as well (not including Bloodbending). He hasn't shown the reflexes to react to lightning landing 15 feet in front of him...and then waterbending himself another 40 feet away from his original position.

Thats after first rushing forward towards the lightning source (Mako). 



> But anyways, I don't see the point in discussing this, it's established that Zuko is comfortably scaled to mach 12, while Ming Hua is scaled mach 5 .



Im making it clear: 

- Waterbending yourself 40 feet away from a Lightning bolt hitting 15 feet in front of you >> than 2 feet dodge roll.
- That is, Amon hasnt show he can do the above. 
- Therefore, failing to do the above doesnt mean you're actually slower than Amon. There's simply no proof.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Pretty sure Amon sidestepping is at least just as natural as it is for Ming Hua to use her water arms. Big difference is Amon has to naturally move a fraction of the distance (a couple feet) while Ming Hua needs to move a lot (40 feet at least).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She doesn't have to move all the way up with her arms, her arms can toss her up without needing further touch, that wouldn't be difficulty . 

And of course she has to know that it's directed at her, but this is something pretty easy to do, and given Zuko's reaction's time to Ming Hua would make her be able to dodge it .

Still, I don't even understand why we're debating, it's established Zuko is faster than Ming Hua .


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## Wan (Nov 3, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> She doesn't have to move all the way up with her arms, her arms can toss her up without needing further touch, that wouldn't be difficulty .
> 
> And of course she has to know that it's directed at her, but this is something pretty easy to do, and given Zuko's reaction's time to Ming Hua would make her be able to dodge it .
> 
> Still, I don't even understand why we're debating, it's established Zuko is faster than Ming Hua .



Marginally faster.  Not fast enough to conclude that he would decisively win against her.


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## Rivers (Nov 3, 2014)

And let's see, Zuko's fireballs...how strong are they supposed to be against Ming Hua's Tendrils? 

Will they evaporate her Water Arms while she's being fuel by a swimming pool's worth of water? Even Azula had a hard time getting through water with her own fire balls.


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## Rivers (Nov 4, 2014)

Thinking about it, Zuko hangs in there against standard 2-arm Ming Hua, but once she uses her multi-arm form the edge goes to her. Where she eventually grabs a foot or a hand (ala Azula vs Katara or Ming Hua vs Mako) and then...as she says, "Now it's over!"


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## Rivers (Nov 5, 2014)

^ So you don't think Ming Hua even has a chance against Zuko?

How about posting something constructive like Zuko's best feats against a waterbender, rather then wasting your time posting that troll link....


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## Amae (Nov 7, 2014)

Made this post days ago, might as well as post it.



Wan said:


> Lighting from the flame...that _is_ the flame.


The effort is nice, but . There's no instance of the flame getting past the destroyed pillar parts that's ahead of Mako, meaning the fire did not directly touch him.



> The flash from the the explosion is touching him.  He got knocked back very forcefully.  The explosion, for all intents and purposes, hit him.


You said Mako was touched by the fire. Mako getting hit and knocked back by the explosion isn't in question.



> And the thing that helped Mako's lack of experience was his ability to pull the lightning technique.  Which, again, Zuko doesn't have.


Right. Bending lightning, however, isn't prerequisite for beating Ming Hua.

Mako's flames can extinguish Ming Hua's two water arms in three attacks, that is what happens in the last episode. Zuko's flames are equal in power to Azula's, meaning he's producing stronger blasts. Azula could also deal with a larger amount of water than Ming Hua's assumed amount with a wall of fire. Zuko has shown the ability to . 



> Does Zuko have a better showing against a waterbender in Book 3 for comparison?


Showing a better performance against a waterbender isn't necessary. Zuko's more powerful bending can ensure Ming Hua doesn't land a hit.


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## Rivers (Nov 8, 2014)

Amae said:


> Right. Bending lightning, however, isn't prerequisite for beating Ming Hua.
> 
> Mako's flames can extinguish Ming Hua's two water arms in three attacks, that is what happens in the last episode.



You do understand that what you saw was several seconds of the tail end of that fight? One where Ming Hua's Water arms were ALREADY being exhausted THROUGHOUT the battle sequence of AS Korra vs Zaheer beforehand.

It doesn't actually take just 3 of Mako's blast to evaporate ALL of Ming Hua's arms. Especially when she's loaded it from a sufficient enough water supply.

​
Two more of Mako's blasts above isn't evaporating the rest of her arms...heck they won't even take out one of her arms...not to mention she can replenish it with water close by if need be.

The power of those water arms (without Ice) are actually denting stone as well. 



> that Zuko's flames are equal in power to Azula's, meaning he's producing stronger blasts. Azula could also deal with a larger amount of water than Ming Hua's assumed amount with a wall of fire. Zuko has shown the ability to .



It takes 3 seconds for Zuko to build up that amount of flames while using both arms, and even turns his back to the opponent while manipulating it. Against Ming Hua who is the most agile waterbender we've seen? Azula's technique was at least far more explosive and immediate, and therefore more combat useful. 

What's stopping Ming Hua from strafing and then attacking / grabbing at Zuko's feet...since he's busy elaborately charging that up, maybe even swing him into the pool?


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## Amae (Nov 8, 2014)

Rivers said:


> You do understand that what you saw was several seconds of the tail end of that fight? One where Ming Hua's Water arms were ALREADY being exhausted THROUGHOUT the battle sequence of AS Korra vs Zaheer beforehand.


You must've been watching a different show if that's your recollection and conclusion.

Ming Hua got hit once by Korra and all of her water was extinguished. She later appears with two water whips (with possibly even more length and water). That's the only thing that happens to them during that scrimmage until she fights Mako. Mako extinguished those new water whips with three attacks.



> ​
> Two more of Mako's blasts above isn't evaporating the rest of her arms...heck they won't even take out one of her arms...not to mention she can replenish it with water close by if need be.


In that very fight, one of Mako's attacks () pretty much dealt with one waterwhip. All other times Mako hit the other waterwhip (twice, both instances helping him out by evaporating or knocking back the waterwhip). There's some serious overestimation on your part by cheery picking a couple of instances of waterwhip putting out fire.



> The power of those water arms (without Ice) are actually denting stone as well.


That's not particularly impressive to me to find noteworthy. 



> It takes 3 seconds for Zuko to build up that amount of flames while using both arms, and even turns his back to the opponent while manipulating it.


Two seconds to finish that particular sequence (pretty much serving as a wall of flames). You seem to also believe he was required to do that specific amount of movement before attacking - he was manipulating the fire, neither charging or generating more fire.

What Zuko did there was a more advanced version of fire whips (which he conjured up almost immediately) and then he manipulated the whips to entrap Aang.



> Against Ming Hua who is the most agile waterbender we've seen?


She pursues her target more aggressively than any other waterbender and displays acrobatics more consistently, but she's by no means the most agile. 



> Azula's technique was at least far more explosive and immediate, and therefore more combat useful.


Zuko should pretty much be able to do what Azula did as he's shown the ability to manipulate his fire at will so readily and has used a variant. I'd also like to retract the statement that the fire whips wouldn't be much assistance, it helps a lot.



> What's stopping Ming Hua from strafing and then attacking / grabbing at Zuko's feet...since he's busy elaborately charging that up, maybe even swing him into the pool?


Zuko was not charging anything up. I think I sufficiently countered this point above, really. Your misinterpretation of the scene influenced these ideas. 

Zuko should be able to take this at least 7 times out of 10 with his firepower, technique, and agility.


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## Wan (Nov 8, 2014)

> The effort is nice, but that's not evidence. There's no instance of the flame getting past the destroyed pillar parts that's ahead of Mako, meaning the fire did not directly touch him.



"Destroyed pillar parts"? Are you talking about parts of the pillar that were blown off by the explosion?  First of all, how do you know they're closer to the explosion than Mako?  Mako was equidistant, if not closer to, the start of the explosion, with the pillar.  And if there was an instance of the flame reaching the pillar pieces, it would _obscure_ the pillar pieces, meaning you can't make an assumption that there was no instance of the flames reaching them.



> Mako's flames can extinguish Ming Hua's two water arms in three attacks, that is what happens in the last episode. Zuko's flames are equal in power to Azula's, meaning he's producing stronger blasts. Azula could also deal with a larger amount of water than Ming Hua's assumed amount with a wall of fire. Zuko has shown the ability to generate a large amount of fire in a short time and manipulate said fire.



And the assumption that Azula's fireblasts are stronger than Mako's comes from...?  Can I assume that Ming Hua's water whips are stronger than Katara's?



> Showing a better performance against a waterbender isn't necessary. Zuko's more powerful bending can ensure Ming Hua doesn't land a hit.



Zuko's firebending in Book 3 is not supposed to be more powerful in any specific way than in Book 2.  His encounter with the dragons gave a greater "understanding" of firebending, but at no point did anyone imply that it made him more _powerful_.



Amae said:


> You must've been watching a different show if that's your recollection and conclusion.
> 
> Ming Hua got hit once by Korra and all of her water was extinguished. She later appears with two water whips (with possibly even more length and water). That's the only thing that happens to them during that scrimmage until she fights Mako. Mako extinguished those new water whips with three attacks.



The problem with this interpretation is that there's several cuts between the fight inside the cave and outside in the meantime.  The first time it cuts back to the cave, Mako and Bolin have already paired up with Ming Hua and Ghazan.  The sequence focuses on Ghazan vs  Bolin first, cuts to outside, then cuts back into the cave, where we see the Mako hit Ming Hua with the three blasts you're talking about.  The implication, though, is that her water source had been consumed during the whole fight that had been going on between Mako and Ming Hua, not just those three blasts we saw.  That only three blasts from Mako is enough to take out all of her water is not a sound conclusion, especially considering how she performed against Mako in the fight in "The Stakeout".  And it _really_ doesn't apply to full-blown octopus form Ming Hua.



> In that very fight, one of Mako's attacks () pretty much dealt with one waterwhip. All other times Mako hit the other waterwhip (twice, both instances helping him out by evaporating or knocking back the waterwhip). There's some serious overestimation on your part by cheery picking a couple of instances of waterwhip putting out fire.



That particular attack was perpendicular to Ming Hua's whip, slicing along its width rather than pushing along its length.  It's effective, but you need to get alongside the whip to do it -- Mako had to pull some tight acrobatics to do it, and I don't remember Zuko being that acrobatic in a fight.  And while it cancelled out Ming Hua's attack, it didn't evaporate the whole whip, leaving the water there for Ming Hua to potentially recover.   In that sense, it was more immediately effective than trying to evaporate the whole arm, but less costly to Ming Hua in the long run.

Your continued comparisons of Ming Hua's performance against Mako to how Zuko might do against her keeps omitting the context of those performances and the arena given for this thread in the OP.  Mako got the upper hand on Ming Hua in "Venom of the Red Lotus" after an extended fight, not simply three blasts, because Ming Hua was momentarily limited to the water she could carry as arms.  Thanks to the big pool in this thread's arena, Ming Hua is not limited like that here.  Mako ultimately won the fight because he exploited how water conducts electricity with lightning, an option which is certainly not available to Zuko.  Mako would have been screwed if he didn't know the lightning technique.


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## Amae (Nov 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> "Destroyed pillar parts"? Are you talking about parts of the pillar that were blown off by the explosion?  First of all, how do you know they're closer to the explosion than Mako?


This is getting exceedingly stupid and was pointless to begin with. You're also twisting my words or misunderstanding something - I said "no instance of the flame getting past the destroyed pillar parts that's ahead of Mako", not that every part is ahead of him.  Multiple examples of evidence have been produced that shows Mako and Bolin being further off than all but a couple of pieces of destroyed material, that's how I know. 

Further continuation of this will be ignored due to the obvious. 



> And the assumption that Azula's fireblasts are stronger than Mako's comes from...?  Can I assume that Ming Hua's water whips are stronger than Katara's?


Better feats/powerscaling (and a little bit of common sense). You can assume whatever you want as you've already demonstrated. 



> Zuko's firebending in Book 3 is not supposed to be more powerful in any specific way than in Book 2.  His encounter with the dragons gave a greater "understanding" of firebending, but at no point did anyone imply that it made him more _powerful_.


Whether or not his bending got stronger is ultimately irrelevant and I won't waste time humoring you like above. He's notably better in Book 3, that's all. How you fail to realize how better understanding would enhance his bending is amusing, though.  



> The implication, though, is that her water source had been consumed during the whole fight that had been going on between Mako and Ming Hua, not just those three blasts we saw.



Like I said, you're already making wild assumptions (you apparently have knowledge of the writer's intent - that is not a counterpart on your part), why ask for permission from me? Stick with the facts and don't attempt to overlook them when they don't coincide with your view of things. Mako being able to take out most of one waterwhip and counter the other with blasts in The Stakeout fits with the later fight.



> It's effective, but you need to get alongside the whip to do it -- Mako had to pull some tight acrobatics to do it, and I don't remember Zuko being that acrobatic in a fight.



Fire whips/lashes. Simple. 

Mako ran up a wall and flipped off it. I've seen Zuko flip about 10 feet in the air in _The Chase_.




> Mako got the upper hand on Ming Hua in "Venom of the Red Lotus" after an extended fight, not simply three blasts, because Ming Hua was momentarily limited to the water she could carry as arms.



Are you daft? I never said otherwise. You seem to like attacking strawman in order to write more than necessary.



> Thanks to the big pool in this thread's arena, Ming Hua is not limited like that here



Of course Ming Hua has a sufficient enough water supply in the match, bringing up Mako's performance against her is necessary because he's the only firebender she's fought in-series iirc. Noting Mako was able to deal with her waterwhips in a particular way is not the same as ignoring the location of the match, it's simply the former. Saying Zuko can counter her waterwhips with a hit or two =/= she can't form more. Did me omitting Zuko, you know, launching fireballs and hitting her in the face confuse you into thinking I meant destroying waterwhips = victory?


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## Wan (Nov 9, 2014)

Amae said:


> This is getting exceedingly stupid and was pointless to begin with. You're also twisting my words or misunderstanding something - I said "no instance of the flame getting past the destroyed pillar parts that's ahead of Mako", not that every part is ahead of him.  Multiple examples of evidence have been produced that shows Mako and Bolin being further off than all but a couple of pieces of destroyed material, that's how I know.
> 
> Further continuation of this will be ignored due to the obvious.



What's sort of stupid is this distinction between the "flame" of the explosion and the force of the explosion.  Mako was hit by the force of the explosion, the same force that blasted off pieces of, if not totally destroyed, the pillar.  He was knocked back several meters.  One way or another, he tanked that explosion.  If you want to conclude that he used firebending to protect himself from being decimated like that pillar was, or just that he straight tanked the heat and force from the explosion, is up to you I guess.



> Better feats/powerscaling (and a little bit of common sense). You can assume whatever you want as you've already demonstrated.



Great.  Then because of better feats, like using more water whips in combat than Katara did, Ming Hua's water whips are stronger than Katara's.  As such, since Katara's water whips were able to overcome Azula's fireblasts in "Crossroads of Destiny" and Zuko's firebending is at most equal in power to Azula's, Ming Hua's water whips would similarly overpower Zuko's fireblasts.



> Whether or not his bending got stronger is ultimately irrelevant and I won't waste time humoring you like above. He's notably better in Book 3, that's all. How you fail to realize how better understanding would enhance his bending is amusing, though.



If there's no blanket statement that Zuko's firebending is better in Book 3 than it was in Book 2, then we can only go by demonstrated feats.  You want to claim that Book 3 Zuko would do better against waterbending than he showed in Book 3?  Ok.  Back it up with relevant feats.



> Like I said, you're already making wild assumptions (you apparently have knowledge of the writer's intent - that is not a counterpart on your part), why ask for permission from me? Stick with the facts and don't attempt to overlook them when they don't coincide with your view of things. Mako being able to take out most of one waterwhip and counter the other with blasts in The Stakeout fits with the later fight.



If three brief blasts were enough to take out both of Ming Hua's whips, then the sustained blast Mako tried in "The Stakeout" should not have been trumped by just one of Ming Hua's whips.



> Fire whips/lashes. Simple.



Correct.  I've already noted that Zuko's fire whips were more effective against Katara's whips than Azula's straight fireblasts.  



> Mako ran up a wall and flipped off it. I've seen Zuko flip about 10 feet in the air in _The Chase_.



Was it a flip, or just a jump, though?  And how does it compare to what Mako pulled?



> Are you daft? I never said otherwise. You seem to like attacking strawman in order to write more than necessary.



So you agree that we can't conclude that three fireblasts from Mako was enough to evaporate Ming Hua's two arms, at full relative capacity?  Because that's part of what I'm saying there.



> Of course Ming Hua has a sufficient enough water supply in the match, bringing up Mako's performance against her is necessary because he's the only firebender she's fought in-series iirc. Noting Mako was able to deal with her waterwhips in a particular way is not the same as ignoring the location of the match, it's simply the former. Saying Zuko can counter her waterwhips with a hit or two =/= she can't form more. Did me omitting Zuko, you know, launching fireballs and hitting her in the face confuse you into thinking I meant destroying waterwhips = victory?



Sure the comparison is relevant, but the thing is you keep skewing the comparison in ways that wouldn't apply to this fight.  That's my point.


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## Amae (Nov 9, 2014)

Wan said:


> Great.  Then because of better feats, like using more water whips in combat than Katara did, Ming Hua's water whips are stronger than Katara's.


Are you aware of the logical fallacy here? That's a non-sequitur. 



> As such, since Katara's water whips were able to overcome Azula's fireblasts in "Crossroads of Destiny" and Zuko's firebending is at most equal in power to Azula's, Ming Hua's water whips would similarly overpower Zuko's fireblasts.



Nice try. 

*Note:* Katara first surrounded her body with water and then created waterwhips with that volume of water. They were notably bigger than any waterwhips Ming Hua has created.



> Back it up with relevant feats.



I already did - blocking CM's blast (this is before learning the Dancing Dragon), advanced use of fire whips/lashes and manipulation of his firebending, being able to fight on par with Azula (something Book 2 Zuko failed miserably at, even dispelling her attacks), Zuko even showcased fire propulsion during Sozin's Comet (it's rather illogical to assume he can only do it during Sozin's Comet but I won't attempt to argue its usage), etc. The source of his superiority is irrelevant as long as it's simply evident, but it's usually attributed to The Dancing Dragon form. 



> If three brief blasts were enough to take out both of Ming Hua's whips, then the sustained blast Mako tried in "The Stakeout" should not have been trumped by just one of Ming Hua's whips.



You have a convenient memory. This is something you have explained yourself:



			
				You said:
			
		

> That particular attack was perpendicular to Ming Hua's whip, slicing along its width rather than pushing along its length. It's effective, but you need to get alongside the whip to do it



Ming Hua countered one of Mako's fire arcs with a water slice, the other two times were attempts at blocking his firebending in lieu of being able to dodge. All three instances are dissimilar to your cited example in The Stakeout and don't contradict it. 



> Was it a flip, or just a jump, though?  And how does it compare to what Mako pulled?



Trust in my ability to recognize a flip.

 



> So you agree that we can't conclude that three fireblasts from Mako was enough to evaporate Ming Hua's two arms, at full relative capacity?  Because that's part of what I'm saying there.



No evidence exists that contradicts Mako replicating what he did there (the waterwhips were no different than usual, there was simply no additional water supply near by), but there's evidence that supports it. Zuko went through both of Katara's waterwhips (along the width, just like Mako to Ming Hua's) to free Azula, the same whips that overcame Azula's firebending. That is consistent with Ming Hua's performance against Mako.



> Sure the comparison is relevant, but the thing is you keep skewing the comparison in ways that wouldn't apply to this fight.  That's my point.


And my point is you're misrepresenting my arguments (seeing implications I myself did not intend and attacking them).


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