# Naruto and Sasuke (Boruto movie) vs Base Momoshiki + Toneri + Juubito



## Android (Jun 10, 2016)

location : momoshiki's world

distance : 50 metres

knowledge : full

ristrections : momo can not absorb ninjutsu from his team M8s

- Naruto and Sasuke are fresh unlike in the movie


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## Mercurial (Jun 11, 2016)

Naruto and Sasuke were heavily nerfed in the movie.

Here, they stomp. I would actually say that, being at their full power, either one would solo.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ARGUS (Jun 11, 2016)

Naruto and sasuke would have never solod momoshiki


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Naruto and sasuke would have never solod momoshiki


¨^^ who wins ?


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2016)

Too much for Naruto and Sasuke to handle, if it was a 2 VS 2 by removing one of their opponents, doesn't really matter which one since all three of them are at a similar level in my opinion, It'd be closer,


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 11, 2016)

Naruto kicks the shit out of Toneri and Obito at the same time while Sasuke remains even with Momoshiki until Naruto comes back to help him finish him off.

Obito is such a speck in this match-up, it's hilarious.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Naruto kicks the shit out of Toneri and Obito at the same time while Sasuke remains even with Momoshiki until Naruto comes back to help him finish him off.
> 
> Obito is such a speck in this match-up, it's hilarious.


I remember those days when BSM narudo and EMS sasuke were considered much much weaker than VOTE madara , VOTE hashirama , and juubito
now you find yourself wondering , can these guys last even 5 seconds against either naruto or sasuke 
how time changed


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Naruto kicks the shit out of Toneri and Obito at the same time while Sasuke remains even with Momoshiki until Naruto comes back to help him finish him off.
> 
> Obito is such a speck in this match-up, it's hilarious.


What a load of rubbish, Juubito is comparable to Base Momoshiki & Toneri, not a speck...

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> What a load of rubbish, Juubito is comparable to Base Momoshiki & Toneri, not a speck...


says the cat who thinks SM hashi can beat rikudou sasuke 
says the cat who thinks adult naruto and sasuke << teen naruto and sasuke 
juubito is weaker than toneri or base momoshiki


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> says the cat who thinks SM hashi can beat rikudou sasuke
> says the cat who thinks adult naruto and sasuke << teen naruto and sasuke
> juubito is weaker than toneri or base momoshiki


I don't know what you've been smoking, but I've never said SM Hashi can defeat any version of Rinnegan Sasuke.

It's because they are. Although the gap between Teen Naruto and Adult Naruto is bigger than the gap between Teen Sasuke and Adult Sasuke.

I disagree, but that's your opinion.


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> I don't know what you've been smoking, but I've never said SM Hashi can defeat any version of Rinnegan Sasuke.


pffffffffffffffffff , i told you , i know your posting history 


Cryorex said:


> It's because they are. Although the gap between Teen Naruto and Adult Naruto is bigger than the gap between Teen Sasuke and Adult Sasuke.


and he has the nerve to talk about smoking 


Cryorex said:


> I disagree, but that's your opinion.


I see .........


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

Johnny Cash said:


> Wait did he really said SM hashi > Rinnegan Sauce?


And that 32 years old sauce <<< 17 years old sauce


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## ARGUS (Jun 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> And that 32 years old sauce <<< 17 years old sauce


Well if PS really is adult sasukes full power then he might be right 

Since BPS >>> PS any day of the week


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## Johnny Cash (Jun 11, 2016)

Adult sauce can use bijuus better than teen sauce.


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## Zef (Jun 11, 2016)

Naruto & Sasuke can solo.

1) JJ Obito is the first to go. 17yo Naruto and Sasuke were embarrassing JJ Madara who was confirmed stronger then JJ Obito.

2) Toneri was defeated by KCM Naruto, nuff said.

3) Base Momoshiki was struggling against base Sasuke.


Kinshiki had to come save him. 

Naruto & Sasuke individually low diff.


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

Zef said:


> KCM Naruto


 BSM naruto , and it does't matter since RSM hasn't been made yet back at 2012 when the movie was still being made


ARGUS said:


> Well if PS really is adult sasukes full power then he might be right
> 
> Since BPS >>> PS any day of the week


Da-hell ????????????
- teen sasuke was like a helpless bitch in kagya's desert dimentions
- adult sasuke can jump between all of her dimentions like a BOSS
- teen sasuke was struggling to land a hit on blind madara
- adult sasuke fodderstomp Momoshiki in CQC with one arm
- teen sasuke can barely use Deva and Preta
- adult sasuke can use Deva , Preta , Asura , Outer , Hell paths
- teen sasuke susanoo is the size of a half kyuubi
- adult sasuke susanoo is even bigger than full kyuubi
- teen sasuke's chidori can't even scratch V1 A
- adult sasuke's chidori can solo a village size mountain 
- adult sasuke may haveless raw power than BPS , but overall he's much stronger really
not a very smart post ARGUS ..............


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> And that 32 years old sauce <<< 17 years old sauce


No I never said that SM Hashirama would defeat any version of Rinnegan Sasuke, ever. So stop making shit up.
And it's more like "32 years old sauce < 17 years old sauce", not "<<<".


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## Android (Jun 11, 2016)

<snip>

or that the mode naruto used in Boruto/Gaiden is RSM
judging by the BS in your sig , i don't think you should talk about how strong characters are 


Cryorex said:


> And it's more like "32 years old sauce < 17 years old sauce", not "<<<".


still very laughable


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## Raiken (Jun 11, 2016)

<snip>



> or that the mode naruto used in Boruto/Gaiden is RSM
> judging by the BS in your sig , i don't think you should talk about how strong characters are


You mean the stuff in my sig that you can't prove wrong, the stuff in my sig that is very likely correct over the crap that you believe.


> still very laughable


Not at all.


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## LightningForce (Jun 11, 2016)

Adult Naruto and Sasuke: individually they will probably lose, but together their teamwork is far, far superior than whatever this motley crew of God tiers can come up with. Naruto and Sasuke's outstanding teamwork has been drilled again and again in the manga as well as in the Boruto movie.

Also, their combined avatars shit.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 11, 2016)

together, they could probably edge out a win against obito. adding the other 2 on obitos team makes it overkill.

momoshiki fires a bijudama, taking naruto out of the match just like in the movie. meanwhile obito kills sasuke with ease due to him not possessing senjutsu. 

naruto & sasuke can use iso susano so both of their powers can have an affect on him, but a construct on that level still cant do anything to him on its lonesome, so obito just sets up a bijudama tree and nukes since they pose no threat to him at full power without the asura avatar & biju PS. alternatively, the sword of nunoboko kills them this time since obitos will wont be weak.

naruto & sasuke both going at obito with the asura avatar & biju PS would probably take him down, but with momoshikis support, their jutsu just get absorbed.

team 2 wins with low diff.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 11, 2016)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> team 1 wins with low diff.


FTFY fam


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> ¨^^ who wins ?



Team momoshiki wins 
Only way Naruto and Sasuke can prevent from juubidama is by cutting the tree with ninjutsu 
And that means food for momo and him firing his own TBB which canonically one shotted Naruto and would do the same to Sasuke

And if momo doesnt kill them with one TBB then Juubito firing flash Jjuubidama certainly will 




cctr9 said:


> BSM naruto , and it does't matter since RSM hasn't been made yet back at 2012 when the movie was still being made
> Da-hell ????????????
> - teen sasuke was like a helpless bitch in kagya's desert dimentions
> - adult sasuke can jump between all of her dimentions like a BOSS
> ...


The only field where adult Sasuke is superior to his teen self is physical speed and strength and skill 
That's it 
Once PS comes out, all of the physical aspects become Irrelevant 

He has shown literally nothing with his Rinnegan in both of the movies and gaiden
Nothing that will be a factor 

His raw power is as high as his regular PS that his teen Rikudo self showed. 
Size is also irrelevant when that doesn't just equate to stronger PS. 

Madaras Ps dwarves teen sasukes yet his PS is inferior 

Adult sasukes firepower is garbage in front of BPS which would one shot Sasuke directly with Indras Arrow 

You fail to realize the gap between BPs and PS. PS went from being trash to RSM avatar to a level where it could blitz and kick the utter shit out of multiple RSM avatars 

So yeah. If PS is adult sasukes Full power then he's far inferior to vote2 Sasuke


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> You fail to realize the gap between BPs and PS. PS went from being trash to RSM avatar to a level where it could blitz and kick the utter shit out of multiple RSM avatars


Im just gonna point out that this never happened. He smacked 1 Avatar to the ground and then got into CQC with the other 3, fired 3 arrows that were countered by TBB and then started doing Indra's arrow. He only blitzed 1 and couldnt beat the other 3 in CQC


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Im just gonna point out that this never happened. He smacked 1 Avatar to the ground and then got into CQC with the other 3, fired 3 arrows that were countered by TBB and then started doing Indra's arrow. He only blitzed 1 and couldnt beat the other 3 in CQC


No , it was abvious that sasuke's BPS was superior , to the point where numbers didn't mean anything 


ARGUS said:


> So yeah. If PS is adult sasukes Full power then he's far inferior to vote2 Sasuke


how do you know that his full power is Susanoo ??

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> how do you know that his full power is Susanoo ??



I don't
But from what we have seen 
It seems PS might actually be his full power


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> I don't
> But from what we have seen
> It seems PS might actually be his full power


are you implaying that adult sasuke might be = 17 years old naruto ?


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## Johnny Cash (Jun 12, 2016)

Stop downplaying Sasuke-kun


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , it was obvious that sasuke's BPS was superior , to the point where numbers didn't mean anything


you mean despite Sasuke not overwhelming them in CQC and having his arrows countered? Yea he was superior but he still couldnt beat Naruto without pulling out Indra's arrow


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> are you implaying that adult sasuke might be = 17 years old naruto ?


If PS is his full power
Then Naruto would be above him
sasuke has literally shown no destructive feats with his rinnegan 
His usage pales in comparison to Madara and momoshiki 
Let alone Hagoormo 

So BDRS barrage one shots PS and then the next TBB one shots him

Ashura avatar isn't even needed


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Madara


Dude , the only thing he showed was chibaku tensei , limbo , and preta


ARGUS said:


> momoshiki


Literally the only thing he does with his rinnegan is absorbing ninjutsu
while sasuke uses preta path , bijuu chakra controlling at hago's level , coreless chibaku tensei , genjutsu that can bitchify all the 9 bijuu at once , amenotejikara , his space time portals , traveling between dimentions


ARGUS said:


> So BDRS barrage one shots PS and then the next TBB one shots him


you really think Kishi will make the fight that easy !!!!!!!


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Dude , the only thing he showed was chibaku tensei , limbo , and preta


Doesn't matter he was already stated to have been able to use six paths techniques 
And Madaras scale of CT and those jutsus trump sasukes 

And Madara was hyped to be invincible and unstoppable if he got both of his eyes. Sasuke has nothing even close to that level of portrayal and hype 

That's enough for me to say that Madaras Rinnegan is above sasukes 



> Literally the only thing he does with his rinnegan is absorbing ninjutsu
> while sasuke uses preta path , bijuu chakra controlling at hago's level , coreless chibaku tensei , genjutsu that can bitchify all the 9 bijuu at once , amenotejikara , his space time portals , traveling between dimentions


Correction.
He absorbs ANY jutsu and sends it back tenfold 
The dudes elemental attacks are sourced from his Rinnegan. Same measly elemental attacks that raped the combined PS-Kyuubi 

He may not be versatile 
But he sure as hell is broken with his Rinnegan since he can use anything that he absorbs and masters it to a much higher level 

And momo has dimensional traveling as well 



> you really think Kishi will make the fight that easy !!!!!!!


No but when we look at feats we sure as hell can tell that RSM Naruto does the same to teen sasukes PS 

To avoid that Kishi actually went to the trouble of giving Sasuke the Bijuu whilst Naruto was holding back 

That's already a sense of inferiority for Sasuke


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> So BDRS barrage one shots PS and then the next TBB one shots him





ARGUS said:


> Doesn't matter he was already stated to have been able to use six paths techniques
> And Madaras scale of CT and those jutsus trump sasukes


errr eh ? let's make somethings clear ARGUS , madara has the juubi , the six paths senjutsu , hashi's cells and his sage mode 
if we wanna compare ,we should compare non juubi dual rinnegan madara with sasuke , sadly , he's featless as he never existed in the manga 


ARGUS said:


> And Madara was hyped to be invincible and unstoppable if he got both of his eyes. Sasuke has nothing even close to that level of portrayal and hype


again ,that madara has the juubi and the rikudou senjutsu , both the powers of naruto and sasuke 
- not really , naruto and sasuke were ready to beat his ass before zetsu one shot him
i can argue that adult naruto and sasuke has a good shot at beating dual rinnegan JJ madara


ARGUS said:


> He absorbs ANY jutsu and sends it back tenfold
> The dudes elemental attacks are sourced from his Rinnegan. Same measly elemental attacks that raped the combined PS-Kyuubi
> 
> He may not be versatile
> But he sure as hell is broken with his Rinnegan since he can use anything that he absorbs and masters it to a much higher level


he was helpless when naruto , sasuke , and the kages didn't gave him any ninjutsu to absorb , and had to eat kinshiki
he's a one trick pony 
hashirama and 8th gate guy can beat him since their arsenal trolls his chakra absorbtion 


ARGUS said:


> And momo has dimensional traveling as well


still not much compared to sasuke


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> errr eh ? let's make somethings clear ARGUS , madara has the juubi , the six paths senjutsu , hashi's cells and his sage mode
> if we wanna compare ,we should compare non juubi dual rinnegan madara with sasuke , sadly , he's featless as he never existed in the manga


No that's not a fair comparison when Sasuke has all of Hagoromos yin chakra 

And despite all That Sasuke couldn't even use kagutsuchi and preta at the same time 

Hell even Nagato used Ningendo and preta at the same time 

And scale is definitely a valid argument when we're talking about the Power of the dojutsu 



> again ,that madara has the juubi and the rikudou senjutsu , both the powers of naruto and sasuke


Powers of both 
But not anywhere near the extent that they have 

So it's still valid 


> - not really , naruto and sasuke were ready to beat his ass before zetsu one shot him
> i can argue that adult naruto and sasuke has a good shot at beating dual rinnegan JJ madara


Yeah together
Individually they stand no chance
Not when they don't have their VOTe2
Constructs 
And even then Madara would edge out 



> he was helpless when naruto , sasuke , and the kages didn't gave him any ninjutsu to absorb , and had to eat kinshiki
> he's a one trick pony


He's a one trick pony who:
 -- clowned Sasuke in a 1v1 
 -- clowned PS and Kyuubi 
 -- one shotted Naruto by a single TBB 
 -- was raping their constructs with measly elemental attacks 

So whatever you say 
Momoshiki > Naruto or Sasuke individually 

That's a canon fact 



> hashirama and 8th gate guy can beat him since their arsenal trolls his chakra absorbtion


8th gate guy may beat base momo 

Hashiramas stands no chance 

Elemental attacks and A giant TBB one shots him 




> still not much compared to sasuke


All Sasuke can do is slightly access kaguyas dimensions 
Even Obito was able to do that 

Momoshiki can casually move around 

So No. That's a Shitty argument 
When everything says otherwise


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> What a load of rubbish, Juubito is comparable to Base Momoshiki & Toneri, not a speck...



Base Momoshiki took out *adult *Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto.

Teenage Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto was already considerably above Obito.

Toneri, on the other hand, has moon-level techniques.

All of those feats are that of which Obito haven't displayed on a remotely similar level.


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Toneri, on the other hand, has moon-level techniques.



Cutting a hollow moon is not moon level though. Heck, cutting a solid moon is not moon level.

Toneri's Multi-continental in attack power with the moon cutter.


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Cutting a hollow moon is not moon level though. Heck, cutting a solid moon is not moon level.


So , you think madara's PS isn't a mountain level because it only cut the top of a mountain


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Gemmysaur said:


> Cutting a hollow moon is not moon level though. Heck, cutting a solid moon is not moon level.
> 
> Toneri's Multi-continental in attack power with the moon cutter.



Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku is 100% moon-level. There even was a calc on it putting it at 50 exatons, almost twice the requirement for moon-level.

Not even a super-charged blast from the Ten-Tails at its peak matched that level of destructive output. Nor would four of them. Obito has nothing to answer to against that level of power. It blasts right through his Truthseeker Orb defenses and vaporizes him.


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

Didn't Toneri tank a rasengan to the face from rikudou senjutsu naruto 
while naruto's senpo rasengan made a hole in juubito's back


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Actually that was Tailed Beast Sage Mode, but still, that's a huge fucking difference between that Naruto at 19 years old and a basic Sage Naruto in the War Arc, haha.

Toneri tanked it with a couple of scuff marks as far as I can remember.


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Tailed Beast Sage Mode


I think the mode means nothing , the movie was being made back at the year of 2012 , when rikudou sage mode wasn't a thing yet in the manga 
Toneri was supposed to fight the strongest form of naruto at that time , not specifically BSM


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

It was Tailed Beast Sage Mode, though. You can tell by how his eyes have the senjutsu pigmentation.


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> It was Tailed Beast Sage Mode, though. You can tell by how his eyes have the senjutsu pigmentation.


yes , yes i know M8 
what i'm trying to say is they used BSM in the movie because RSM wasn't introduced yet in the manga at 2012
Toneri was supposed to fight naruto in his strongest form


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Yeah, of course.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Jun 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Toneri, on the other hand, has moon-level techniques.


Implying Juubi Jinchuurikis aren't moon level? If you want to be strict on feats, neither Madara, Momoshiki, or even Kaguya displayed feats of destroying any moon level mass, yet we know all of them are on another level compared to Toneri, and in fact do have powers that can destroy on that scale.

Toneri is a mock sage of Hamura. None of the raw power he exercises is beyond a Juubi's Jinchuuriki. He has the most destructive feats, but got beaten by BSM Naruto who didn't even require Sasuke's assistance.

The only Six Paths villain to get solo'd

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

Kai said:


> or even Kaguya displayed feats of destroying any moon level mass


the huge ass TSB that can destroy the earth , no ?  


Kai said:


> The only Six Paths villain to get solo'd




worse then solo'ed


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## Raiken (Jun 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Base Momoshiki took out *adult *BSM Naruto, while Naruto was focusing on defending the village from the AoE damage of Momoshiki's attack since they were in the middle of Konoha surrounded by civilians.
> 
> Teenage Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto was already considerably above Obito.
> 
> ...


Fixed


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> ruined


Fixed


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

Toneris attack cut the moon
Yet base Naruto tanked it with his BSM chakra fist

Yet RSM Narutos full cloak was pierced by a sword

Wonder what the tells us about toneris attack power pound per pound

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

@ARGUS
madara tanked guy's sekizo
yet he was pierced by sasuke's katana
sasuke's sword >>>> 8th gate guy's sekizo 

madara tanked a punch from guy in the back
zetsu's hand went through him like butter
zetsu's hand >>>>> guy's punch  

KCM naruto tanked 3 sword protecting hinata
RSM was pierced by sasuke's katana
KCM cloak >>>> RSM cloak

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

@ARGUS 
Shinsuusenju tanked an explosion that was soooooooo big 
yet for some weird reason hashirama that can b killed with a kunai was unharmed 
so was the mokujin that was on top of it , even tho we saw that it couldnt even tank one small TBB from the kyuubi
Shinsuusenju clearly tanked the explosion


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @ARGUS
> Shinsuusenju tanked an explosion that was soooooooo big
> yet for some weird reason hashirama that can b killed with a kunai was unharmed
> so was the mokujin that was on top of it , even tho we saw that it couldnt even tank one small TBB from the kyuubi
> Shinsuusenju clearly tanked the explosion


The arms of SS soaked up the damage and clearly protected Haahirama and mokujin completely

-snip-

SS durability = Hashirama himself
ck

If Hashirama himself can be pierced by a kunai then that doesn't mean that SS can

Not when a far inferior construct Mokujin tanked a PS slash point blank with no damage

Either way.
Your way of disproving my point doesn't really work because:

1. Madara being pierced by sasukes blade didn't mean that he was hurt. He showed zero signs of damage. EE on the other hand raped him.
So yeah EE is far above it

2. Swords from fodder <<<<< teleported katana right on Narutos gut. Not to mention that Naruto actually blocked the sword. RSM was hit directly

3. Mokujin was transformed to hobi to tank TBB. And it did so with no damage

And I see that you didn't address my previous post so I assume that you have conceded


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Kai said:


> Implying Juubi Jinchuurikis aren't moon level?



Madara is by feats, Obito isn't.



> If you want to be strict on feats, neither Madara, Momoshiki, or even Kaguya displayed feats of destroying any moon level mass



Madara's Chibaku Tensei is <= Kinrin Tensei Baku in energy output, they are both very much moon-level.

Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb would have destroyed an entire planet.

Momoshiki took out Rikudō Sage Naruto, who is miles stronger than a 19-year old Bijū Sage Naruto who took Kinrin Tensei Baku facefirst. He is also easily moon-level.

It is only Obito who isn't.



> we know all of them are on another level compared to Toneri, and in fact do have powers that can destroy on that scale.



Madara and Toneri are on the same level, methinks.



> Toneri is a mock sage of Hamura. None of the raw power he exercises is beyond a Juubi's Jinchuuriki. He has the most destructive feats, but got beaten by BSM Naruto who didn't even require Sasuke's assistance.



Give me one raw power or destructive feat of Obito's that remotely stacks up to Kinrin Tensei Baku. 

You won't, so I'm going to assume you concede right here and now and move on. Thus, because Toneri's destructive feats > Obito's, he is indeed beyond him in raw power.

Naruto beating him is irrelevant, lmao. You seem to be labouring under the delusion that characters can't vastly improve in strength over time.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> Fixed



I don't think you grasped the point of that part of the post.

Read it again.


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

Kaguyas expansive TSB - planet level

Hagoromos sword of nonoboku and
CT - planet level

Madaras full power CT and juubidama - multi continent level


Juubi and juubitos flash TBB - mass continent level. Can possibly eradicate the moon since the moon is not even half of the earths size


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> The arms of SS soaked up the damage and clearly protected Haahirama and mokujin completely
> 
> And is this retard seriously claiming that
> SS durability = Hashirama himself
> ...


  
SS main body wasn't caught in th explosion 
the arms got destroyed because they were attacked 
the main body wasn't scratched because it wasn't attcked 
what SS had was the advantage of size , not durability 
this as retard as saying tobirama '' tanked '' juubito attack , because only his half body got destroyed 
EE didn't pierce madara's body , yet sasuke's Katana pierced it 
zetsu's arm pierced madara's body , yet 8th gate guy's punch , didn't pierce him 
your logic about the moon cutting sword = means that EE and guy's punch , or naruto's YRS are all weaker than sasuke's katana  
because they couldn't pierce his body , but sasuke's katana and zetsu's arm could ck


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## Raiken (Jun 12, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't think you grasped the point of that part of the post.
> 
> Read it again.


Not sure what you're getting at.


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

@ARGUS guy's punch is garbage because it couldn't do this


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## Raiken (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> ok maybe i went too much


I just don't know how you think your 1 piece of evidence, the lack of Sage Pigmentation. Somehow completely discounts my multiple pieces of evidence.

I mean how can you see things like this.


And still 100% believe everything I say is completely wrong.
And STILL firmly believe what he used in the Gaiden/Boruto is WITHOUT ANY DOUBT SPSM, when in *actuality*, THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR DOUBT.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

@ARGUS the shinju tree clearly tanked the lava rasenshuriken , i mean it's lower half wasn't scratched


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## Raiken (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @ARGUS please explain to him what mode naruto uses in boruto movie
> 
> @Cryorex , do you also believe ARGUS is an idiot for not believing your horseshit ??


Never really tried to full on convince Argus, but I've seen how you've reacted to tonnes of evidence in the past.
So it depends on if I tried to convince Argus with my entire arsenal of evidence and how he would react to it.

To be fair, all I'm really after is people to respect my opinion, not asking everyone to accept it as FACT, like a certain cctr9 likes everyone to accept his opinion on the matter as fact. I'd be perfectly happy with people agreeing to disagree, and leaving me alone to my beliefs instead of *jumping on me every time I post something that is out of line with their beliefs*... yes I'm 100% referring to you @cctr9.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

Narutos black markings and shape of cloak is also dependant on his outfit

Either way you're wrong for saying that naruto used BSM in gaiden and boruto

BSM = pigment cross eyes
RSM = cross eyes but no pigment

That's all the evidence you need
Everything else is just speculation 

Naruto lost his TSB in the war and they're something that can't be manifested once they're lost so him lacking them later on isn't a valid excuse for him not using RSM

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> Never really tried to full on convince Argus, but I've seen how you've reacted to tonnes of evidence in the past.
> So it depends on if I tried to convince Argus with my entire arsenal of evidence and how he would react to it.
> 
> To be fair, all I'm really after is people to respect my opinion, not asking everyone to accept it as FACT, like a certain cctr9 likes everyone to accept his opinion on the matter as fact. I'd be perfectly happy with people agreeing to disagree, and leaving me alone to my opinion instead of *jumping on me every time I post something that is out of line with their beliefs*... yes I'm 100% referring to you @cctr9.


If only , if only , if only , you actually sustain your claims with manga/DB/movie fact 
instead you creat fanfiction , and expect me to take it as evidence 
like that hurr durr 100 % kurama syns with yang ................. whatever it was 
stick to the canon please , not fanfiction.com


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Narutos black markings and shape of cloak is also dependant on his outfit
> 
> Either way you're wrong for saying that naruto used BSM in gaiden and boruto
> 
> ...


Thank you  
and forget what i said about the katana

Reactions: Like 1


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## Raiken (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Narutos black markings and shape of cloak is also dependant on his outfit


While this is true, there are multiple HEAVY indicators of major similarities between BM/BSM Shroud and the Gaiden Shroud, those forms are FAR TOO close in appearance to be discounted.



> Either way you're wrong for saying that naruto used BSM in gaiden and boruto
> 
> BSM = pigment cross eyes
> RSM = cross eyes but no pigment


A novice mistake. That is the easy assumption to come to based on what is presented to you. But when you do plenty of thinking on the matter, start piecing things together. You start to realise that doesn't really make sense.
I thought the same as this at first. I'll go into CONSIDERABLE detail into this if you want to carry this on.
It is true that if you are using SPSM, you will never have the pigmentation, THIS IS TRUE. However, there are 



> Naruto lost his TSB in the war and they're something that can't be manifested once they're lost so him lacking them later on isn't a valid excuse for him not using RSM


That is a fair point, but how do you explain the massive differences in Seal Pattern, and how the Gaiden's shroud majorly represents the BM/BSM shroud? Then there is the MAIN THING, the lack of these markings which you forgot to mention:

It's even referencing usage of Senjutsu of the Six Paths in the same panel. Did it focus on his eyes when making that statement, no it focused on those markings.
Which is the primary indicator of usage of Six Paths Senjutsu, which displays when Naruto is using his SPSM with a Chakra Mode.


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## Raiken (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> If only , if only , if only , you actually sustain your claims with manga/DB/movie fact
> instead you creat fanfiction , and expect me to take it as evidence
> like that hurr durr 100 % kurama syns with yang ................. whatever it was
> stick to the canon please , not fanfiction.com


No you just call your evidence canon and my evidence fan-fiction when both are equally applicable. But my beliefs don't align with yours so you call it fan-fiction in a pathetic attempt to mock my claims. You're like the media, lets mock it so everyone thinks it's bad (when it's not).


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 13, 2016)

The only thing that makes me doubt it being RSM is that they changed Naruto's skin color when in RSM its not supposed to change


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## Raiken (Jun 13, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> The only thing that makes me doubt it being RSM is that they changed Naruto's skin color when in RSM its not supposed to change


So the fact that the *Seal Pattern* is *exactly the same as BM *in the Gaiden/Boruto form, and *NOT like his SPS Chakra Mode*, doesn't strike you as strange?

*Spoiler*: __ 









So the fact that the *9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings*, which is present due to the *combination* of *Six Paths Sejutsu* with a *Chakra Mode* (or a Physical Transformation in a Juubi Jinchuuriki's case), being *absent* in the Gaiden/Boruto form doesn't strike you as strange?

I agree that the lack of Sage Pigmentation, which was implied to be an indicator of the usage of Six Paths Sage Mode, does imply that what is used in the Gaiden/Boruto is a form of Six Paths Sage Mode.
However, there is *A LOT* more to suggest that it's more likely a more advanced form of BSM.

So then when you weigh up each sides evidence against each other. You simply have to go with the side that has a lot more backing it up, meaning that it is a form of BSM that lacks the Sage Pigmentation for some seemingly unknown reason. AND THEN, attempt to discover the reason *WHY*... the Gaiden/Boruto form lacks the Sage Pigmentation.

I thought about many different reasons over and over, but in the end, I concluded there was one idea that stood out as the *most likely*. The difference in *how the Senjutsu is being managed*.

In Six Paths Sage Mode & Six Paths Sage Chakra Mode (the Naruto that fought JJ Madara/Kaguya/Sasuke), Naruto lacked the Sage Pigmentation as we all know.
We also know that in the future, based on the Seal Pattern Design and the lack of the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings (the lack of Gudoudama also being another indicator), strongly suggests that Naruto is using BSM, yet it lacks the Sage Pigmentation.
So *why*, does it lack the Sage Pigmentation? As I said, the most likely idea is that of how the *Senjutsu is being managed*.

Against Sasuke, we seen that it was Kurama, not Naruto, who was gathering Natural Energy, and was responsible for the creation of Sage Chakra.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Back when he was fighting JJ Obito, we seen that it was Naruto who gathered the Natural Energy to create Sage Chakra.


What difference do we see?

When *Naruto was responsible for gathering Natural Energy and creating Sage Chakra*, with his *own bodies Physical and Spiritual Energy*-based on the fundamental principles of Sage Mode mode taught to him. We see *the presence of Sage Pigmentation*.

When *Kurama was responsible for gathering Natural Energy and creating Sage Chakra*, which would have been with *using Kurama's own Chakra*, there is *no Sage Pigmentation* on Naruto's face.

Similar to how in Base, Naruto *still has the pigmentation*, because he's using *his own bodies Physical & Spiritual Energy* as opposed to with Kurama's Chakra.

Still, in a way, the lack of Sage Pigmentation *IS* an indicator of *SPSM/SPS-Chakra Mode*. But *ONLY because* for SPSM to work, *Kurama HAS TO BE the one managing the Senjutsu*, not Naruto.
*Because* all *9-Bijuu's Chakra* has to be *combined *with *Senjutsu* to *make use of Six Paths Senjutsu.* The 9-Bijuu are linked together within Naruto as we seen when Hagaromo called out their names. For Six Paths Senjutsu to work, it doesn't make sense for Naruto to use his own bodies Physical & Spiritual Energy to create the Sage Chakra.
So *SPSM* will *ALWAYS lack the pigmentation*, BUT *IT DOESN'T MEAN*, that *you cannot see a lack of pigmentation elsewhere*, like we see in Adult Naruto's BSM, where Kurama is now managing the Senjutsu instead of Naruto.

When Naruto is gathering the Natural Energy and using his own Physical & Spiritual Energy to create Sage Chakra.

*Spoiler*: __ 







When Kurama is gathering Natural Energy using his own Chakra to create either Six Paths Sage Chakra(when linked to the other 8-Bijuu's Chakra) or Bijuu Sage Chakra(when just using Kyuubi Chakra).

*Spoiler*: __

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## Android (Jun 13, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> So the fact that the *Seal Pattern* is *exactly the same as BM *in the Gaiden/Boruto form, and NOT like his SPS Chakra Mode, doesn't strike you as strange?
> So the fact that the *9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings*, which is present due to the *combination* of *Six Paths Sejutsu* with a *Chakra Mode* (or a Physical Transformation in a Juubi Jinchuuriki's case), being *absent* in the Gaiden/Boruto form doesn't strike you as strange?
> 
> I agree that the lack of Sage Pigmentation, which was implied to be an indicator of the usage of Six Paths Sage Mode, does imply that what is used in the Gaiden/Boruto is a form of Six Paths Sage Mode.
> However, there is *A LOT* more to suggest that it's more likely a more advanced form of BSM.


can't you understand ????
the chakra cloak change over time , naruto has like a 1000 different chakra cloak
so you can't base your claims on th chakra cloak anymore
the eyes are what matters
no toad markings = no toad sage mode , which is the point that you can't and will never be able to deny

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## King Shark (Jun 13, 2016)

How does Kurama-PS combo not guarantee a win?


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## Android (Jun 13, 2016)

The Orange Hokage said:


> How does Kurama-PS combo not guarantee a win?


it one shotted momo and juubito , so i don't see why not

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Raiken (Jun 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> it one shotted momo and juubito , so i don't see why not


They overpowered Momoshiki, but he wasn't harmed much at all.
And JJ Obito was barely phased and regenerated from it pretty easily.

So saying they "one shotted" is utterly absurd and ridiculous.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 13, 2016)

This is not an acceptable standard of etiquette for debating around here, cut it out. If I have to delete another exchange like that, either from you (when you're unbanned, that is) or anyone else, I'm just going to lock the thread.


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## King Shark (Jun 13, 2016)

PS-Kurama sword never made contact with momo directly, it sliced the rock golem he was riding on. Across it's body while momo was located in the rock golem's head.


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Madara is by feats, Obito isn't.


Madara didn't show any moon level feats.



			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> Madara's Chibaku Tensei is <= Kinrin Tensei Baku in energy output, they are both very much moon-level.
> 
> Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb would have destroyed an entire planet.
> 
> ...


Madara's Chibaku Tensei was on the scale of several mountain ranges. That's not moon level in scale.
Kaguya's giant Truthseeker was stated to be able to destroy the planet. The *feat *was not shown, nor did she ever display actual destructive feats on the level of Kinrin Tensei Baku.

Momoshiki fought moon-level characters, not display moon-level feats. This was basically the point I was making, which is Toneri's feat is not something exceptional when we know more powerful characters are fighting each other without exercising moon-level destruction, yet we know they possess power that are more than capable of doing so.



			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> Madara and Toneri are on the same level, methinks.


First, getting defeated by BSM Naruto alone puts him nowhere close to Madara. Secondly, Tenseigan alone = 3 Rinnegan, Juubi Jin powers, + Mokuton? Methinks Toneri is missing power that would represent a whole tier's worth of difference.

Obito and Toneri are closer in power. If Toneri was on Madara's level, Sasuke would have no choice but to participate in the fight.



			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> Give me one raw power or destructive feat of Obito's that remotely stacks up to Kinrin Tensei Baku.
> 
> You won't, so I'm going to assume you concede right here and now and move on. Thus, because Toneri's destructive feats > Obito's, he is indeed beyond him in raw power.


You can make the same request about Kaguya and I still wouldn't. Planet busting Truth Seeker doesn't have feats. Kinrin Tensei Baku rules only displayed feats, which I have shown why relying on that stance alone to indicate superiority over other characters is faulty.

Even if Toneri does possess more raw power, the point is what though. Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku has no hope of seriously damaging any Juubi's Jinchuuriki, given Naruto's 'chakra' defense. Gudodama easily defends. Regeneration that can heal half of one's body easily compensates. I don't recall Toneri showing regeneration/healing, any sort of Gudodama manipulation, or CQC prowess.

Many people will have difficulty fathoming the Tenseigan having more raw, destructive power than the Juubi


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 13, 2016)

Toneri's greatest attack is > Madara's casual CT. Those CT showed the curvature of the planet and massively dwarfed the shinju stump that is >>>>mountains. Its moon level cause he made like 20 of them


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## Kai (Jun 13, 2016)

You mean as opposed to Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, which actually created the moon?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 13, 2016)

Kai said:


> You mean as opposed to Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, which actually created the moon?


doesnt matter. Madara's CT altogether was comparable to the size of the moon. Toneri could split the moon. God tiers (sans Juubito) are moon level.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 15, 2016)

Kai said:


> Madara didn't show any moon level feats.



He did. His Chibaku Tensei is a blatantly moon-level feat. 



> Madara's Chibaku Tensei was on the scale of several mountain ranges. That's not moon level in scale.



LMAO

Several mountain ranges? Naruto and Bee's combined bomb _before_ Six Paths Sage Mode was introduced, was on the scale of several mountain ranges.

As long as Naruto was in KCM he got his chakra drained by Kurama as he wasn't fully tamed yet as stated by Hachibi 

Madara's meteors were unbelievably massive enough so that the shot you're seeing in that link shows the curvature of the *planet*. Ergo, those very satellites you're looking at are the size of countries. But the energy required to construct all those satellites is indeed moon-level.



This calculation also confirms it.



> Kaguya's giant Truthseeker was stated to be able to destroy the planet. The *feat *was not shown, nor did she ever display actual destructive feats on the level of Kinrin Tensei Baku.



I don't see what your point is. Toneri and Madara have moon-level feats within relative destructive proximity within each other, Kaguya is undeniably superior to at least the latter, so the notion of her being planet-level isn't hard to swallow at all. You're trying to make this a case of 'Toneri is moon-level, therefore, so is Obito' without taking into consideration that scalability applies only to _Kaguya_. Madara has his own moon-level feat to prove he is.

Obito does not. Therefore he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt.



> Momoshiki fought moon-level characters, not display moon-level feats. This was basically the point I was making, which is Toneri's feat is not something exceptional when we know more powerful characters are fighting each other without exercising moon-level destruction, yet we know they possess power that are more than capable of doing so.



We _know_ Momoshiki is stronger than Toneri because he kicked adult Naruto's ass in his strongest mode whereas the latter couldn't do so to a 19-year old iteration in a weaker mode. So he's automatically moon-level.

We _know_ Madara is at least moon-level because he had a feat of one. And Kaguya is at least moon-level because she's >> Madara.

_Obito_, however, does not get that benefit of the doubt. Because he doesn't get logical scaling like Momoshiki does. Him being moon-level isn't 'known 'at all because him being superior or even on a similar level to Toneri isn't proven. He has inferior feats to Toneri. 

_That_ is the point I'm making. Your initial point throwing Jūbi Jinchūrikis under an umbrella wasn't subtle, bud. Obito and Madara are markedly different in power, and you can't seem to grasp that.



> First, getting defeated by BSM Naruto alone puts him nowhere close to Madara. Secondly, Tenseigan alone = 3 Rinnegan, Juubi Jin powers, + Mokuton? Methinks Toneri is missing power that would represent a whole tier's worth of difference.



You're employing some shit-tier logic. Naruto as of _The Last,_ compared to the _War Arc_, is completely different in terms of power. 

Tell me, do you also think base Naruto in _The Last_ and base Naruto in the _War Arc_ have the same power?

Your reasoning would lead you to that conclusion.



> Obito and Toneri are closer in power.* If Toneri was on Madara's level, Sasuke would have no choice but to participate in the fight.*



What is the bolded based on? You have no idea how 19-year old Sasuke stacks up to Madara, lmao. 



> You can make the same request about Kaguya and I still wouldn't. Planet busting Truth Seeker doesn't have feats. Kinrin Tensei Baku rules only displayed feats, which I have shown why relying on that stance alone to indicate superiority over other characters is faulty.



I rely on that stance only for _Obito_. Maybe get that through your head, bud, before you erect to another strawman.

You can argue Kaguya is superior to Toneri just with basic powerscaling. You can't do the same with Obito.



> Even if Toneri does possess more raw power, the point is what though. *Toneri's Kinrin Tensei Baku has no hope of seriously damaging any Juubi's Jinchuuriki*, given Naruto's 'chakra' defense. Gudodama easily defends. Regeneration that can heal half of one's body easily compensates. I don't recall Toneri showing regeneration/healing, any sort of Gudodama manipulation, or CQC prowess.



L O L

Did you somehow forget that Kinrin Tensei Baku's power is activated by a Gudōdama?


> Many people will have difficulty fathoming the Tenseigan having more raw, destructive power than the Juubi



Yeah, they do for whatever reason. Jūbi doesn't have a feat to its name that makes it superior to the Tenseigan, haha.
ū

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## Clowe (Jun 16, 2016)

The Juubidama's explosion also shows the curvature of the planet...

Does that mean incomplete Juubi = Moon level?



Mock sage of Hago > Mock sage of Hamu

Being a juubi jin >> Tenseigan


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 16, 2016)

Clowe said:


> The Juubidama's explosion also shows the curvature of the planet...
> 
> Does that mean incomplete Juubi = Moon level?
> 
> ...


Not the same. Its not as intense or as big as Madara's, who also made a fuck ton of huge rocks very quickly


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 16, 2016)

Clowe said:


> The Juubidama's explosion also shows the curvature of the planet...



It didn't. For that matter, the curvature wa much, much less apparent for the Jūbi Bijūdama than was for Madara's Chibaku Tensei.



> Does that mean incomplete Juubi = Moon level?



You're misreading my argument. Showing the curvature of the moon doesn't necessarily make an attack moon-level in scale, I used that to refute Kai's retarded notion that Madara's Chibaku Tensei was 'on the level of several mountain ranges', lmao.

Madara's Chibaku Tensei was straight-up calculated to be moon-level. Jūbi's Bijūdama was actually low-continent, by the way.



> Being a juubi jin >> Tenseigan



This is an assumption based on arbitrary reasoning, not a fact. Toneri has vastly superior feats to Obito and on-par with Madara. By an objective metric, Toneri and Madara are on even footing.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kai (Jun 17, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He did. His Chibaku Tensei is a blatantly moon-level feat.


No, the one that creates the moon is blatantly moon-level. Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.



			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> LMAO
> 
> Several mountain ranges? Naruto and Bee's combined bomb _before_ Six Paths Sage Mode was introduced, was on the scale of several mountain ranges.
> 
> ...


Sure, the Chibaku Tenseis are probably country-level in size.

But the Chibaku Tensei isn't moon level.



			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> Obito, however, does not get that benefit of the doubt. Because he doesn't get logical scaling like Momoshiki does. Him being moon-level isn't 'known 'at all because him being superior or even on a similar level to Toneri isn't proven. He has inferior feats to Toneri.
> 
> _That_ is the point I'm making. Your initial point throwing Jūbi Jinchūrikis under an umbrella wasn't subtle, bud. Obito and Madara are markedly different in power, and you can't seem to grasp that.


The regeneration of a Juubi's Jinchuuriki is an umbrella concept, and so are the Gudodama. You haven't clarified to any extent how Toneri's "moon-level feats" defeats a Juubi Jin's defenses.





			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> You're employing some shit-tier logic. Naruto as of _The Last,_ compared to the _War Arc_, is completely different in terms of power.
> 
> Tell me, do you also think base Naruto in _The Last_ and base Naruto in the _War Arc_ have the same power?
> 
> Your reasoning would lead you to that conclusion.


Not sure what this has to do with Toneri being able to effectively damage a Juubi's Jinchuuriki. Obito can't negate the damage with his Gudodama, Six Red Yang Barrier, or evade with his flight+speed because, reasons?




			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> What is the bolded based on? You have no idea how 19-year old Sasuke stacks up to Madara, lmao.


Sorry, but requiring two of the protags using their most powerful forms (SPSM + Rinnegan) and a cooperative seal as the only means for victory is far more impressive than one protag using BSM and a conventional fight for victory.

You're not getting away with pushing the idea that BSM Naruto is stronger than Six Paths Sage Mode without getting mocked.



			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> I rely on that stance only for _Obito_. Maybe get that through your head, bud, before you erect to another strawman.
> 
> You can argue Kaguya is superior to Toneri just with basic powerscaling. You can't do the same with Obito.


How the hell do you reason Obito doesn't get the logical powerscaling Madara and Momoshiki do (rightfully so) , yet you turn around and use Toneri's feats to "logically scale" him to Madara's level. On what basis is Toneri's feat able to logically scale to that level when there's no evidence whatsoever Kinrin Tensei Baku is beyond a Juubi Jin's destructive capability.




			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> L O L
> 
> Did you somehow forget that Kinrin Tensei Baku's power is activated by a Gudōdama?


Did you somehow forget the burden you need to prove regarding Kinrin Tensei Baku?

On what basis does it severely damage a Juubi's Jin, when Naruto was able to either compensate the damage or avoid being focused?




			
				ATastyMuffin said:
			
		

> Yeah, they do for whatever reason. Jūbi doesn't have a feat to its name that makes it superior to the Tenseigan, haha.
> ū


You mean, except for its destructive hype which dwarfs the Tenseigan. Hamura possessed the Tenseigan and his power was nowhere near as destructive as the Juubi's, let alone JJ Hagoromo for that matter.

Toneri, who isn't even equitable to Hamura's level, possessing more destructive power than the Juubi is laughable at best.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 17, 2016)

BSM Naruto as of the last is <= RSM Naruto during the war arc, considering his feats during the Last. Breaking a gudodama with Rasengan, punching out a god tier, surviving a blade that separated the moon, etc. 19 y/o BSM Naruto would shit on Juubito just like he shit on Toneri

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## Kai (Jun 17, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> BSM Naruto as of the last is <= RSM Naruto during the war arc, considering his feats during the Last. Breaking a gudodama with Rasengan, punching out a god tier, surviving a blade that separated the moon, etc. 19 y/o BSM Naruto would shit on Juubito just like he shit on Toneri


I have Toneri and Obito pegged at roughly the same level. Toneri being on Madara's level, however, is just bad scaling and needs to be called out.


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## Klue (Jun 17, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> I just don't know how you think your 1 piece of evidence, the lack of Sage Pigmentation. Somehow completely discounts my multiple pieces of evidence.
> 
> I mean how can you see things like this.
> 
> ...



Crex's evidence is crazy good. 

But maybe the Gaiden / Boruto Movie is SPSM + Kurama Chakra *without* the other 8 Bijuu? 

Idk. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 17, 2016)

Kai said:


> No, the one that creates the moon is blatantly moon-level. Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.



As is Madara's, because the energy required to construct that many satellites of that size, requires moon-level energy.

I don't get it, are you capable of reading or did you recently lose that ability recently?



> Sure, the Chibaku Tenseis are probably country-level in size.
> 
> But the Chibaku Tensei isn't moon level.



Er, that's exactly how the calc'ers got moon-level. The combined mass of all those satellites, the energy required to form them = moon-level.

Moving on.



> The regeneration of a Juubi's Jinchuuriki is an umbrella concept, and so are the Gudodama. You haven't clarified to any extent how Toneri's "moon-level feats" defeats a Juubi Jin's defenses.



No, what I'm talking about you grouping things under an umbrella is saying in the beginning, "You think Jūbi Jinchūrikis aren't moon-level?" then going on to argue that on account of Madara/Kaguya while disingenuously neglecting trying to justify it for Obito, who is an entire _league_ below Madara/Kaguya.

Yeah, you aren't getting a pass with that kindergarten-level reasoning.



> Not sure what this has to do with Toneri being able to effectively damage a Juubi's Jinchuuriki. Obito can't negate the damage with his Gudodama, Six Red Yang Barrier, or evade with his flight+speed because, reasons?



Er, because Kinrin Tensei Baku is _drastically stronger than any defenses that Obito is capable of mustering? _The strongest thing Obito's Gudōdama or barrier has demonstrated of defending against successfully is the Jūbi's Bijūdama, which by feats is inferior to Kinrin Tensei Baku. So the blast goes right through Obito's defenses and erases his entire being from existence.

Toneri has Six Paths power, and neither Obito's Gudōdama or barrier can defend against it based off of feats.

Hey bud, just read that sentence over and over _slowly_ so you get the gist of it, alright? I'll repeat it one more time for you:

Neither Obito's Gudōdama or barrier can defend against Kinrin Tensei Baku based off of feats.

There, I underlined it for you! Does that help?



> Sorry, but requiring two of the protags using their most powerful forms (SPSM + Rinnegan) and a cooperative seal as the only means for victory is far more impressive than one protag using BSM and a conventional fight for victory.
> 
> *You're not getting away with pushing the idea that BSM Naruto is stronger than Six Paths Sage Mode without getting mocked*.



Oh, so you think _Pain Arc_ Sage Naruto is superior to base _The Last _Naruto?

I mean, that's the line of logic you're pushing, isn't it? Do you also think that Cursed Seal Sasuke in the _Itachi Pursuit_ Arc is superior to base Sasuke in _The Last _or in _Boruto: Naruto the Movie_?

Shocker, chuckles! You can get stronger in a weaker form than your past self in a stronger form!

Whoa, didn't see that coming right? But hey, since we're in the business of repeating extremely obvious things to force it through people's skulls since they can't seem to comprehend it, let's underline it one more time!

You can get stronger in a weaker form than your past self in a stronger form!



> How the hell do you reason Obito doesn't get the logical powerscaling Madara and Momoshiki do (rightfully so) , yet you turn around and use Toneri's feats to "logically scale" him to Madara's level. On what basis is Toneri's feat able to logically scale to that level



I don't scale Toneri *to* Madara's level. Kinrin Tensei Baku is superior to any output of Madara, whose Chibaku Tensei is only marginally below Kinrin Tensei Baku in terms of energy output. Based on that, they're on-par. So I'm not doing any powerscaling shenanigans, I'm comparing their two strongest attacks. Toneri is actually a bit stronger than Madara simply on a feat basis, but I more or less think of them as equals.

This isn't rocket science, lmao.



> when there's no evidence whatsoever Kinrin Tensei Baku is beyond a Juubi Jin's destructive capability.



And you just lumped Jūbi Jinchūrikis under an umbrella again!

You know Madara and Obito have _vastly_ different levels of destructive capacity right? Can you comprehend that?



> Did you somehow forget the burden you need to prove regarding Kinrin Tensei Baku?
> 
> On what basis does it severely damage a Juubi's Jin, when Naruto was able to either compensate the damage or avoid being focused?



The basis where Toneri’s attack is on an entirely different _scale_ from what Obito has shown to perform.

Maybe you need to read up on the difference between a continent and a moon. I think they teach that in third grade, bud.

Oh, and using Naruto as a reason to disprove it? Why do you assume Obito is stronger than _The Last_ Naruto?



> You mean, except for its destructive hype which dwarfs the Tenseigan. Hamura possessed the Tenseigan and his power was nowhere near as destructive as the Juubi's, let alone JJ Hagoromo for that matter. Toneri, who isn't even equitable to Hamura's level, possessing more destructive power than the Juubi is laughable at best.



What the actual fuck are you talking about? Kinrin Tensei Baku is *a power of the Tenseigan*. Hence, the Tenseigan is superior to the Jūbi, because the Jūbi has never shown anything resembling moon-level.

Also, you keep saying ‘Jūbi, Jūbi, Jūbi’.

Obito doesn’t have the full Jubi’s power. He has a fraction of it, missing the strongest tailed beast and another one.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 4


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## Raiken (Jun 17, 2016)

Klue said:


> But maybe the Gaiden / Boruto Movie is SPSM + Kurama Chakra *without* the other 8 Bijuu?


Perhaps...
But by definition: Six Paths Sage Chakra is the combination of all 9 Bijuu's Chakra with Natural Energy.
An individual making use of Six Paths Sage Chakra is a Six Paths Senjutsu user. (Something you helped me better understand.)
Naruto makes use of Six Paths Senjutsu through his unique Six Paths Sage Mode.

So by very definition... how is it possible for Naruto to use any form of Six Paths Sage Chakra, without having the Chakra of the other 8 Bijuu?
The only way Naruto would be capable of using Six Paths Senjutsu without the other 8-Bijuu's Chakra, is a route a lot of people go down, is that "They retrained the halves of Hagaromo's Chakra that was given to them.", Hagaromo has Six Paths Sage Chakra, so by retaining that, Naruto would have Six Paths Sage Chakra.
So the form in the Gaiden would be one where Naruto has a lessor version of Six Paths Senjutsu compared to his Madara/Kaguya/Sasuke battle form that had the 9 Tomoe/Rinnegan Seal Markings, a level of Six Paths Senjutsu comparable to Pre-Jin Hagaromo or Post-Jin Obito perhaps.
But then, by that very same logic for that argument, Sasuke ALSO HAS Six Paths Senjutsu, having half of Hagaromo's Chakra.
By that very same argument, why does Naruto not make use of Six Paths Senjutsu when he is in base, like he did when he first appeared against JJ Madara? Why is it only when he's using Kurama does the pigmentation go?

*Spoiler*: __ 







So now for that argument to work, you also have to push forward the idea that Six Paths Sage Chakra is something that can be turned off and on.
The more you look into it, the more far fetched it gets. And the more you realise there has got to be a better explanation for all this.

The Chakra that Hagaromo gave them was likely not a permanent thing, something that was ISOLATED to the Seals and not made a permanent part of their Chakra system; and was lost when they Sealed Kaguya.
It doesn't make sense for something that came to them externally, something that isn't being maintained & stored by some sort of Seal, to NOW be part of their natural Chakra System permanent to them, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, be something that can be turned off or on??
It would be like saying Kabuto could turn off his Uzumaki DNA he got from Karin that was augmenting his Physical Energy.
If something comes to you from an external source, augments you and isn't isolated/segregated in any way, but now a part of them. It stands to reason it should be augmenting them all the time and not be something that can be turned "off or on". I mean, where does it go when they, "turn it off", it's got no where to go, no Seal to be stored in, because as we seen, those Seals left them when they Sealed Kaguya.
Now people will just say "Naruto stores Hagaromo's Chakra inside the Kyuubi's Seal when he's not using it"... SO WHERE DOES SASUKE STORE HIS, "Oh but Sasuke's is on all the time, he can't turn it off like Naruto."... jesus...

Eventually, people might actually realise it doesn't actually make sense for Hagaromo's Chakra to have been retained in any way.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jun 17, 2016)

naruto in six paths sage mode was pierced by a katana and he withstood toneris sword without any sort of injury. anything in a juubi jins arsenal would plow through toneris beam and instakill him.

if toneris firepower>>>>juubi, that would mean that one would have to claim that naruto would be able to stand inside the explosion of the juubis bijudama and come out unscathed. 
the people that usually fanboy over naruto would actually advocate for this though. the same guy that got ran through by a katana living through the juubis bijudama or any bijudama for that matter. 

the notion of toneri being close to the tier of the juubi much less a juubis jinchuriki is sig worthy.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 17, 2016)

True, I guess Ay is more durable than adult Six Paths Sage Naruto.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 17, 2016)

the Juubi could tank its own juubi dama to the face and Naruto beat down Juubi jins like dough, I dont see why he wouldnt be able to withstand a juubi dama fairly casually lol


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## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> the Juubi could tank its own juubi dama to the face and Naruto beat down Juubi jins like dough, I dont see why he wouldnt be able to withstand a juubi dama fairly casually lol


Implying that a juubi Jins durability is on par with the juubi


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## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2016)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto in six paths sage mode was pierced by a katana and he withstood toneris sword without any sort of injury. anything in a juubi jins arsenal would plow through toneris beam and instakill him.
> 
> if toneris firepower>>>>juubi, that would mean that one would have to claim that naruto would be able to stand inside the explosion of the juubis bijudama and come out unscathed.
> the people that usually fanboy over naruto would actually advocate for this though. the same guy that got ran through by a katana living through the juubis bijudama or any bijudama for that matter.
> ...


Let's not forget adult RSM Naruto with his full avatar get one shotted by a much inferior TBB from momoshiki


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 18, 2016)

implying a juubi jin wouldnt stomp the juubi in every category 

Momoshiki's TBB was massively boosted and didnt oneshot Naruto head on, he contained the blast with his Avatar to save the village lol


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## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> implying a juubi jin wouldnt stomp the juubi in every category


Concession accepted 
Juubis durability >>>>>>>>> juubi Jins and TSB 



> Momoshiki's TBB was massively boosted and didnt oneshot Naruto head on, he contained the blast with his Avatar to save the village lol


Naruto was one shotted
He was put down and on the brink of death after the TBB, so get that shit out of your ass 
Him containing the blast won't change the fact that he almost died from an attack that's nowhere near as strong as juubidama


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 18, 2016)

>on the brink of death
>As soon as hes rescued he starts fighting Momoshiki
hmm. Doesnt seem like it

Juubito > Juubi in durability. Why do you say he isnt lol. He busted the god gates that could tank Juubi dama just by standing up, thats a physical feat for him right there. His body has the juubi shell around it anyway so he should be at least as durable as it


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## Gemmysaur (Jun 18, 2016)

I'm gonna have to say no to Naruto being on the brink of death post-Bijuudama from Momo. He looked to have been knocked out instead, as he looked pretty well to me when he was being sucked by the guy, feeling the actual sucking that was making him sweat up aside.


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## King Shark (Jun 19, 2016)

Momo's bijiudama couldn't have been that much weaker than a juubidama. It's at least bigger than v2 juubi's version, this is assuming size determines DC.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 19, 2016)

The Orange Hokage said:


> Momo's bijiudama couldn't have been that much weaker than a juubidama. It's at least bigger than v2 juubi's version, this is assuming size determines DC.


It doesnt always and things can be inconsistent. Naruto's bijuu dama in RSM Kurama Avatar should be >>> his ones in regular BM but they are the same size


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## King Shark (Jun 19, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> It doesnt always and things can be inconsistent. Naruto's bijuu dama in RSM Kurama Avatar should be >>> his ones in regular BM but they are the same size


Yeah, i agree. I still don't think momo's bijuudama is that much weaker than a juubidama though.


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## ARGUS (Jun 19, 2016)

Momoshiki purposely didn't want Naruto dead.
But Naruto was one shotted by it.
Be it protecting the village or not, his avatar still lacks the defense to tank the TBB


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 19, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Momoshiki purposely didn't want Naruto dead.
> But Naruto was one shotted by it.
> Be it protecting the village or not, his avatar still lacks the defense to tank the TBB


okay. whats your point?


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## ARGUS (Jun 19, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> okay. whats your point?


My point is that RSM Naruto can't tank a juubidama 
Not with just his regular RSM avatar


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 19, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> My point is that RSM Naruto can't tank a juubidama
> Not with just his regular RSM avatar


except the juubi tanked one and RSM Naruto shit on juubi mads who is >> that juubi

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ARGUS (Jun 20, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> except the juubi tanked one and RSM Naruto shit on juubi mads who is >> that juubi


For the last time
Jin Madara being stronger than the juubi doesn't mean he's more durable. 
Juubi never gets cut down By a sword. Whereas naruto and Jin Madara have been shown to get pierced

RSM avatar had its entire side peeled off by an explosion that looked like piss infront of a casual v2 juubidama 
Let alone larger variants from V3 juubi. 
If he almost had its side peeled off by PS chidori and RSM TBB. Then the far stronger juubidama would one shot 

As for Jin Madara. His main defense is either TSB or just his body. 
TSB was getting cracked by BSM TBB and one shotted by EE. 
Both attacks that juubi would shrug off shit diff


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 20, 2016)

Honestly youre spouting only your opinion at this point since Juubito destroyed Hashirama's gates just by standing up, same gates tanked a juubi dama easily. Juubito also tanked the continuous explosions from Tobirama, the same explosions destroyed another one of Hashirama's gates. Madara took hits from 8th gate Guy, took a Yoton Rasenshuriken while weakened from Guy and wasnt cut in half. That same YRS cut the shinju which is = in durability to the Juubi at least


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