# Minato vs. Sandaime Raikage



## SuperSaiyaWoman12 (Feb 19, 2013)

*Location*: Naruto vs. Sandaime
*Distance*: 30m
*Knowledge*: None
*Mindset*: IC
*Restrictions*: Shiki Fuujin, Nukite 

Since I restricted Shiki Fuujin which is a massive nerf I also restricted the 3rd's best technique to be fair.

Current feats only.


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## Ghost (Feb 19, 2013)

Raikage outlasts I guess.

And Shiki Fuujin isn't a massive nerf. Hiraishin would be.


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## HiroshiSenju (Feb 19, 2013)

Can Minato's time-space barrier warp the Raikage's hand into his brain?


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## Rocky (Feb 19, 2013)

Funnily enough, Minato redirecting Sandaime's Nukite back at him (either with Rasengan or some S/T maneuver) was the only way for him to win. Raikage outlasts.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Minato warps sandaime into the toad oil waterfall back in Frog Mountain.

Or a volcano.

Or repeated Minato rasengans to the back of the head should kill him if naruto's rasengan (albeit in sage mode) can at least cause Sandaime's arm to crack a little.


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## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Minato warps sandaime into the toad oil waterfall back in Frog Mountain.
> 
> Or a volcano.



How do you know that Minato has tags in these places?



> Or repeated Minato rasengans to the back of the head should kill him if naruto's rasengan (albeit in sage mode) can at least cause Sandaime's arm to crack a little.



When did a simple Rasengan caused the Raikage's arm to crack? How do you know that the crack wasn't one of the ones that Edos have by default?


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> How do you know that Minato has tags in these places?


summons a random toad, gives them a kunai, tells them to go to that place....




blk said:


> When did a simple Rasengan caused the Raikage's arm to crack? How do you know that the crack wasn't one of the ones that Edos have by default?


cracks are localized and spread from where the rasengan makes contact with raikage's arm.

from the page before, there are no such cracks.


and unlike madara/itachi, sandaime doesn't have any cracks in his fully regenerated state.
and that's before the rasengan even did its full damage.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> summons a random toad, gives them a kunai, tells them to go to that place....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


sandaime doesn't have any cracks


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> sandaime doesn't have any cracks



I don't get it.  

Are you trying to point to the statement about sandaime's body being able to withstand "any kind of jutsu"?


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> Are you trying to point to the statement about sandaime's body being able to withstand "any kind of jutsu"?



What I got from your post was that the Sandaime doesn't have cracks around his body. So I showed you a scene of him with cracks around his body.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> What I got from your post was that the Sandaime doesn't have cracks around his body. So I showed you a scene of him with cracks around his body.



okay.

Well, my post didn't say Sandaime _never_ has cracks around his body. My post said that "when he is fully healed" he doesn't have any cracks around his body.

All the cracks in the scan you posted were damage caused by the FRS.  You can confirm this by looking at his condition before being hit by FRS, and then looking at how he is cracked up after, and how those cracks slowly fade away over the fight.

And the reason for the cracks slowly regenerating would be both cellular damage should be harder to regenerate from, and that edos take a long time to regenerate from KCM attacks.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> okay.
> 
> Well, my post didn't say Sandaime never has cracks around his body, my post said that "when he is fully healed" he doesn't have any cracks around his body.
> 
> All the cracks in the scan you posted were damage caused by the FRS.  You can confirm this by looking at his condition before being hit by FRS, and then looking at how he is cracked up after, and how those cracks slowly fade away over the fight.



But naruto clearly told us that his jutsu didn't place a scratch on the raikage


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> But naruto clearly told us that his jutsu didn't place a scratch on the raikage



feats > hype

we visually see what kind of damage sandaime received from the jutsu, and we see that a rasengan can cause enough damage for his skin to crack.  

Naruto saying "he didn't scratch sandaime" doesn't erase what happened, it just means that the definition "didn't put a scratch on him" need not be interpreted as the inability to literally put a scratch on him.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> okay.
> 
> Well, my post didn't say Sandaime _never_ has cracks around his body. My post said that "when he is fully healed" he doesn't have any cracks around his body.
> 
> ...



And this one Link removed


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> feats > hype
> 
> we visually see what kind of damage sandaime received from the jutsu, and we see that a rasengan can cause enough damage for his skin to crack.
> 
> Naruto saying "he didn't scratch sandaime" doesn't erase what happened, it just means that the definition "didn't put a scratch on him" need not be interpreted as the inability to literally put a scratch on him.



I'm not going to argu about this but how many rasengan does minato have to do to put the raikage out and i'm guessing that number is over his limit.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> And this one Link removed



could just be an art inconsistency since all the other closeups of Sandaime Raikage in that chapter and later have him crackless.

And it still doesn't address the fact that he is shown without any cracks before FRS hit, then immediately after, consistently has cracks on his body, then later, cracks disappear.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> I'm not going to argu about this but how many rasengan does minato have to do to put the raikage out and i'm guessing that number is over his limit.



I don't think Minato really has a limit on the amount of rasengans he can make.  It's not a super chakra taxing move like raikiri or chidori.

my estimate would be around 4 rasengans to the same spot on the back of his head.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> could just be an art inconsistency since all the other closeups of Sandaime Raikage in that chapter and later have him crackless.
> 
> And it still doesn't address the fact that he is shown without any cracks before FRS hit, then immediately after, consistently has cracks on his body, then later, cracks disappear.



And this one? Link removed


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> And this one? Link removed



cracks from Temari and her comrade's attacks they did earlier.

Are you arguing a point, or are you just trying to make me do busywork with rebutting the inconsistencies?

Because if you are actually arguing a point, then if you don't attack the other supports for my argument its a tacit concession.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> cracks from Temari and her comrade's attacks they did earlier.
> 
> Are you arguing a point, or are you just trying to make me do busywork with rebutting the inconsistencies?



But he has cracks on his face.

And here there is no Temari mark/slash on him; Link removed

This guy had Cracks on his face and they went away

Link removed

than

Link removed


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> But he has cracks on his face.
> 
> 
> And here there is no Temari mark/slash on him; Link removed



which means his face got hit with some minor damage earlier either onpanel or offpanel....

and please, answer my question.  Are you arguing a point?  I don't want to waste my time with just busy work.



Jad said:


> This guy had Cracks on his face and they went away
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Which could just be an art inconsistency, or kishi's way of showing us a new character is an edo.

Either way, it's not equivocal to Sandaime raikage example.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> which means his face got hit with some minor damage earlier either onpanel or offpanel....
> 
> and please, answer my question.  Are you arguing a point?  I don't want to waste my time with just busy work.



And about the cracks on Sandaimes face? He didn't get hit in the face, you can clearly see that before he had no marks, than again he did. No one hit him in the face.

If the panels I have shown to you are art inconsistencies, than why are you relying on those cracks on his shoulder to be from the rasengan?


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> And about the cracks on Sandaimes face?



I'm not responding to any of your posts if you don't have the courtesy to respond to direct questions I repeatedly ask you in mine.

Fully respond to my post and I'll respond to yours.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I'm not responding to any of your posts if you don't have the courtesy to respond to direct questions I repeatedly ask you in mine.
> 
> Fully respond to my post and I'll respond to yours.



Just did, let me guess, Art Inconsistency? But your panel, the one you showed me, 100% without a doubt full proof? No need to question it? You are correct?


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> Just did, let me guess, Art Inconsistency? But your panel, the one you showed me, 100% without a doubt full proof?



Lets see what you have brought to the table Jad.

On one hand, you have one scan of sandaime raikage with cracks and then 2 chapters of him with closeups, without any cracks.  

Therefore: art inconsistency

In my example, we get closeups of Sandaime with no cracks on any part of his body, and after being hit with the FRS, suddenly tons of cracks appear all over his body.  

Now are these cracks an art inconsistency?  If they appeared in just one scan, then yeah you could argue that however, in EVERY closeup scan of Sandaime Raikage throughout that chapter, the cracks all over his body are still there.  After he gets hit with FRS, he is shown full of cracks 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
times in the course of just 1 chapter.  That is in no way an art inconsistency.

So no, him being visually shown cracked up in EVERY closeup after being hit with FRS while shown without cracks in almost EVERY scan prior to taking damage means that it is obviously not an art inconsistency.

And Jad, you should also stop strawmaning my argument like you did with this phrase:





Jad said:


> But your panel, the one you showed me, 100% without a doubt full proof?


That was YOUR panel, you provided it, I only explained it.  If you actually read my argument you would see that it was my argument was not just based on one panel, but on consisted close-ups of Sandaime throughout the course of the chapter as you can see here:





ueharakk said:


> could just be an art inconsistency since all the other closeups of Sandaime Raikage in that chapter and later have him crackless.
> 
> And it still doesn't address the fact that he is shown without any cracks before FRS hit, *then immediately after, consistently has cracks on his body, then later, cracks disappear.*






In addition to all of this we know that edo tenseis crack when damaged, and there are evidences that show sandaime was cracked by FRS other than the argument about the cracks.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Minato warps sandaime into the toad oil waterfall back in Frog Mountain.
> 
> Or a volcano.
> 
> Or repeated Minato rasengans to the back of the head should kill him if naruto's rasengan (albeit in sage mode) can at least cause *Sandaime's arm to crack a little.*



When "Edo's" are summoned, their body will appear grey and in a state of decay; covered with cracks. 

Edo third raikage before engaging in battle 8 you can clearly see the "Cracks" on his left arm.

"Edo tensei" resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected. We know that third third raikage faced against ten thousand shinobis alone and died afterwards. 

Uchiha Madara was also resurrected with "Cracks" on some parts of his body.  

Though, I do believe Naruto's rasengan created added "more" cracks on his arm, "Rasengan" is quite powerful.

The only art inconsistency I notice is when Kishimoto constantly gets rid of those scars and adds them later.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> When "Edo's" are summoned, their body will appear grey and in a state of decay; covered with cracks.
> 
> Edo third raikage before engaging in battle 8 You can clearly see the "Cracks" on his left arm.
> 
> ...



read the post right above this one.

in his undamaged, fully healed state, Sandaime Raikage has virtually no cracks on him, yet after taking a FRS his body is consistently cracked throughout the course of the chapter.  

Even more so, the cracks slowly fade away which means they are cracks caused from damage as edo tenseis "damage" cracks disappear, while their permanent cracks disappear and reappear, they don't gradually disappear.


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## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

Hey, if you believe the Rasengan cracked Sandaime Raikage, that's cool with me.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> Hey, if you believe the Rasengan cracked Sandaime Raikage, that's cool with me.



um, why wouldn't you believe the rasengan cracked sandaime?

If you look at the panel (bottom right), we see cracks on sandaime's arm diverging from the place where the rasengan has makes contact.

There are no other cracks anywhere else on his arm, and throughout that chapter, his body has no cracks meaning he healed from FRS.

Are you seriously saying that the above is just pure coincidence?


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> read the post right above this one.
> 
> in his undamaged, fully healed state, Sandaime Raikage has virtually no cracks on him, yet after taking a FRS his body is consistently cracked throughout the course of the chapter.
> 
> Even more so, the cracks slowly fade away which means they are cracks caused from damage as edo tenseis "damage" cracks disappear, while their permanent cracks disappear and reappear, they don't gradually disappear.



You do realize  "Edo tensei" resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected ?

Before the quarrel, third raikage had "Cracks" all over his body.

By your logic, I can also say that his "Chest" scar should've been "healed".
The "Fading" cracks are art inconsistencies.

Madara released himself entirely from Edo Tensei in other words he is not an edo anymore, Since he used the same edo tensei to release himself (rinnegan) while Itachi who doesn't have the rinnegan could only release himself partially (free movement etc). Although, when Itachi released Kabuto's Edo Tensei he dissipated like the rest of the Edo's yet Madara didn't. So Madara cannot be an edo anymore. When Madara released himself from "Edo tensei", it refreshed his body so it looked liked his body was completely rejuvenated. This only applies to him because he freed himself.

No "Cracks" 1


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> You do realize  "Edo tensei" resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected ?
> 
> Before the quarrel, third raikage had "Cracks" all over his body.
> 
> ...


???  are you saying that the cracks are damage from just before they died?  Because that isn't true, else Minato wouldn't have cracks on his face because he only took one hit before he died.

And I'm sure we can find other examples if we looked at Chiyo, Kimimaro, Sasori, Deidara, and others.

Also, the "fading" cracks statement shows that you don't understand my argument.  only cracks that have been created by attacks while they are edos would fade away "since they are regenerate" while cracks/scars that they have had in the past would not "fade away" since they would not be healed.



Reality said:


> Madara released himself entirely from Edo Tensei in other words he is not an edo anymore, Since he used the same edo tensei to release himself (rinnegan) while Itachi who doesn't have the rinnegan could only release himself partially (free movement etc). Although, when Itachi released Kabuto's Edo Tensei he dissipated like the rest of the Edo's yet Madara didn't. So Madara cannot be an edo anymore. When Madara released himself from "Edo tensei", it refreshed his body so it looked liked his body completely rejuvenated. This only applies to him because he freed himself.


Um... madara post-release still has cracks on his face in some panels and doesn't have them in others...

Sandaime is different, the vast majority of his panels show no cracks on him unless he has taken damage as seen after he gets hit by FRS, wind net, and rasengan.


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## LostSelf (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> could just be an art inconsistency since all the other closeups of Sandaime Raikage in that chapter and later have him crackless.
> 
> And it still doesn't address the fact that he is shown without any cracks before FRS hit, then immediately after, consistently has cracks on his body, then later, cracks disappear.



Basically the same can be said for him having cracks after FRS, it contradicts Naruto's word. And Sandaime Raikage showing edo cracks way before he started to fight + Naruto's statement makes me believe that him having cracks after FRS is just an art inconsistency when he appeared without them.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> ???  are you saying that the cracks are damage from just before they died?  Because that isn't true, else Minato wouldn't have cracks on his face because he only took one hit before he died.
> 
> And I'm sure we can find other examples if we looked at Chiyo, Kimimaro, Sasori, Deidara, and others.
> 
> ...



The bodies will appear in state "decay" which is only reasonable for dead bodies that have been concealed in coffins for a long period of time. Effectively your body "Liquidises". As decay sets in, and bacterial action takes place, the cell walls disintegrate and allows the cytoplasm to escape. (a cell is a bit like a water balloon, you can build a relatively solid wall with water balloons- that's how you are 70% water.). In most cases this liquid slowly seeps from the coffin and into the soil.
Bacteria is still present in the coffin, therefore the bacteria 'eats' away at the body thus the body slowly disintegrates.

Orochimaru did "State" he was able to improve the "Edo tensei". Orochimaru and Kabuto were able to improve (refine) the appearances of their Edo-Zombies by doing a hand seal. Chiyo was able to determine that Kabuto's Edo Tensei is more "refined" than that of previous users, simply by looking at their own appearances. Maybe Madara's "refinement" was 100% completed when he freed himself. So he's most probably still a Edo-zombie that looks a normal, healthy person.

Or, you can go by your logic and claim that the disappearing cracks are "Art inconsistencies". We know that the cracks appeared long before sandaime fought got hit by a rasenshuriken.

I did understand your argument, those cracks can be regarded as dead body scars as well.


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Basically the same can be said for him having cracks after FRS, it contradicts Naruto's word. And Sandaime Raikage showing edo cracks way before he started to fight + Naruto's statement makes me believe that him having cracks after FRS is just an art inconsistency when he appeared without them.



Read my above post to Jad.

Him having cracks before an attack is an art inconsistency because it is only shown in 1 panel throughout his appearances in multiple chapters.  All his other appearances have him with no cracks.

On the other hand, once he gets hit with FRS, he consistently shows cracks all over his body throughout 1 chapter including every closeup of him.  

He goes from multiple panels of him with virtually no cracks to every single closeup of him having tons of cracks on himself.

So it's very clear that the same cannot be said about Sandaime's consistently cracked body post-FRS.

There's even more evidence to support this like naruto's rasengan clearly cracking sandaime raikage's arm, the fact that Sandaime raikage emits edo papers, edo smoke, we see his cracks actively healing, the fact that he is incapacitated by FRS, and can't even use RoY for a bit.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Read my above post to Jad.
> 
> Him having cracks before an attack is an art inconsistency because it is only shown in 1 panel throughout his appearances in multiple chapters.  All his other appearances have him with no cracks.
> 
> ...



His "First" appearance shows him covered in "Cracks" (Before he fought Naruto) 

Yes, that is true, Kishimoto may just be lazy you know.

It can also be regarded because those "Cracks" casually disappear. It's pretty evident that if you get hit by a "Rasen shuriken", scars will begging to "Appear", although the third raikage had them before he fought so it can be confusing at times.

The thing you have to grasp is that the third raikage "Appeared" with cracks all over his body due to "Decay".


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> The bodies will appear in state "decay" which is only reasonable for dead bodies that have been concealed in coffins for a long period of time. Effectively your body "Liquidises". As decay sets in, and bacterial action takes place, the cell walls disintegrate and allows the cytoplasm to escape. (a cell is a bit like a water balloon, you can build a relatively solid wall with water balloons- that's how you are 70% water.). In most cases this liquid slowly seeps from the coffin and into the soil.
> Bacteria is still present in the coffin, therefore the bacteria 'eats' away at the body thus the body slowly disintegrates.


is any of this stated or implied in the manga?



Reality said:


> Orochimaru did "State" he was able to improve the "Edo tensei". Orochimaru and Kabuto were able to improve (refine) the appearances of their Edo-Zombies by doing a hand seal. Chiyo was able to determine that Kabuto's Edo Tensei is more "refined" than that of previous users, simply by looking at their own appearances. Maybe Madara's "refinement" was 100% completed when he freed himself. So he's most probably still a Edo-zombie that looks a normal, healthy person.


bro, like what does this have to do with my post?  I showed you that Madara still has cracks after he breaks out of edo tensei.  He is in no way a normal healthy person, he still has the cracks.



Reality said:


> Or, you can go by your logic and claim that the disappearing cracks are "Art inconsistencies"


The disappearing cracks for sandaime raikage are art inconsistencies BECAUSE:
in the vast majority of the panels he is shown in, he does not have cracks.

Now, please reread my argument again:

Assumptions:
- Edo tenseis get cracked when they receive damage.
- Edo tenseis regenerate from damage they receive.

If Sandaime raikage is consistently shown to not have any cracks on him, then after getting hit with an attack is consistently shown to HAVE cracks on him, and those said cracks gradually disappear, then the cracks were caused by the said attack and do not naturally appear on the edo tensei.

The chapter after FRS hits him confirms this in two ways: 
1) Sandaime raikage's arm gets visually cracked by a rasengan
2) Sandaime raikage's body has none of the cracks that it had in the previous chapter when it gets closeups, meaning the damage was healed from.



Reality said:


> His "First" appearance shows him covered in "Cracks" (Before he fought Naruto)
> 
> Yes, that is true, Kishimoto may just be lazy you know.
> 
> ...


His first appearance showed him with no cracks.  Compare his first appearance to how he looks like right after getting hit by FRS and the conclusion is painfully obvious.

But even then, how he first appears should be irrelevant.  How he is "consistently shown to appear" is relevant.

Sandaime is consistently shown to appear with no cracks, then right after getting hit by a FRS, his body is consistently cracked throughout the entire chapter.

Tell me why that is?


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## Turrin (Feb 19, 2013)

There is no way I see Kishi writing a battle between Minato & Raikage where Minato looses. Minato takes Sandaime down with Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu.


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## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> is any of this stated or implied in the manga?
> 
> 
> bro, like what does this have to do with my post?  I showed you that Madara still has cracks after he breaks out of edo tensei.  He is in no way a normal healthy person, he still has the cracks.
> ...




No, it is organic matter Rotting through the action of bacteria and fungus.

It's pretty logical if you look at it, Orochimaru and Kabuto were able to improve (refine) their "Edo" thus augmenting the quality of the body. The cracks were starting to disappear.

You seem to understand nothing about decomposition, please take your time and read it again. 

When a body is stored in a coffin for a long time, the body will begging to "decay". When the bodies are summoned, Edo tensei castor resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA was gathered, it's only logical that they appear with cracks, meaning it is not "Inconsistent".

Those "Cracks" disappear due to the Edo regenerative ability, whether he gets smashed or decapitated, he will always reform.

When did I ever state rasengan never cracked his arm ? If you took your time reading my posts, you would notice I stated that the third "Raikage" had cracks long before he fought Naruto and the alliance. Even after the third raikage gets hit with a "Rasen shuriken", the "cracks" are still intact on his "Body" meaning they were there in the beginning.

Wrong, Raikage appeared with some cracks on his forehead as you can see here he looks like right after getting hit by FRS


*Facts*

Even the Jinchurikii's "Appeared" with cracks. Don't tell me they're different now. _BFR_

The "Hokage's" appeared with "Cracks" he looks like right after getting hit by FRS

- Uchiha Madara appeared with "Cracks" he looks like right after getting hit by FRS


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## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> No, it is organic matter Rotting through the action of bacteria and fungus.


so no manga evidence that suggests this results in the cracks?



Reality said:


> It's pretty logical if you look at it, Orochimaru and Kabuto were able to improve (refine) their "Edo" thus augmenting the quality of the body. The cracks were starting to disappear.


if this is true, then would you mind posting scans of how Tobirama and hashirama differ from their current edo tensei forms as far as cracks are concerned?



Reality said:


> You seem to understand nothing about decomposition, please take your time and read it again.
> 
> When a body is stored in a coffin for a long time, the body of the their body will begging to"decay". When the bodies are summoned, *Edo tensei resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA was gathered*, it's only logical that they appear with cracks, meaning it is not "Inconsistent".


um I would really like to see proof of the bolded.



Reality said:


> Those "Cracks" disappear due to the Edo regenerative ability, whether he gets smashed or decapitated, he will always reform.


but that doesn't make sense since the cracks would not regenerate due to the cracks being part of the original corpse.  
It would also not be true since some edos don't regenerate from their cracks, and some of their cracks re-appear spontaneously without anything happening to them.

And if the cracks were healed, then wouldn't it take an attack strong enough to cause those cracks on their real body in order to make those cracks re-appear?



Reality said:


> When did I ever state rasengan never cracked his arm ? If you took your time reading my post, you would notice I stated that the third "Raikage" had cracks long before he fought Naruto and the alliance.


If this is true that a rasengan can produce cracks on his arm, then why would a FRS not produce the cracks we see suddenly appear all over him?  



Reality said:


> Wrong, Raikage appeared with some cracks on his forehead as you can see here he didn't have the footing to dodge Bee's last strike


yet there are still much more cracks on his body in the scan that I showed versus that one.



Reality said:


> *Facts*
> 
> Even the Jinchurikii's "Appeared" with cracks. Don't tell me they're different now. _BFR_
> 
> ...


yeah, and some of those cracks disappear and some of them don't which is why we look at how an edo tensei is CONSISTENTLY shown to be.  

How is Sandaime Raikage CONSISTENTLY portrayed as?  With cracks or with no cracks?


So according to you, the FRS did not crack Sandaime Raikage, but instead damaged him to the point where the cracks that already were on his body initially now became visible?

This fails the Oocam's Razor test, since among both of our hypothesis, yours makes far more assumptions in order for it to work.


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## Rain (Feb 19, 2013)

Turrin said:


> There is no way I see Kishi writing a battle between Minato & Raikage where Minato looses. Minato takes Sandaime down with Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu.



Except Kishimo isn't writing this battle.

We are.


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## Bonly (Feb 19, 2013)

The winner depends on if Minato can figure out the Sandaime Raikage weakness before he is killed/runs out of gas. 

With Minato likely throwing his Kunai around the battle field and being able to dodge A's full speed at the last second thanks to Hiraishin, Minato can likely do the same here. If the Sandaime Raikage used any black lighting, Minato could use a S/T barrier to redirect it else where. So pretty much the Sandaime Raikage isn't gonna touch Minato. On the other hand Minato won't be able to easily hurt the Sandaime thanks to his tough body. 

So it depends on if Minato can figure out the Sandaime's weakness so this becomes a attrition which is a toss up. The Sandaime was able to fight a Bijuu and come to a draw showing his stamina as well as fighting 10,000 ninja for 2 days before he died. Minato maintained Kushina's seal for hours, used Hiraishin multiple times, fought Obito, warped the Kyuubi's bijuudama, summoned Gamabunta, warped the entire Kyuubi in one go, and then still had enough chakra to use Hakke Fuin, Shiki Fuin, and erect a barrier that could've restrained Kurama if Kushina hadn't beaten him to it. All in one night. So its a toss up in who can outlast who here.


----------



## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> How is Sandaime Raikage CONSISTENTLY portrayed as?  With cracks or with no cracks?



None of the two possibilities, since there are scans where he is showed with cracks even without having received any previous damage.






Bonly said:


> So it depends on if Minato can figure out the Sandaime's weakness so this becomes a attrition which is a toss up. The Sandaime was able to fight a Bijuu and come to a draw showing his stamina and what not. Minato maintained Kushina's seal for hours, used Hiraishin multiple times, fought Obito, warped the Kyuubi's bijuudama, summoned Gamabunta, warped the entire Kyuubi in one go, and then still had enough chakra to use Hakke Fuin, Shiki Fuin, and erect a barrier that could've restrained Kurama if Kushina hadn't beaten him to it. All in one night. So its a toss up in who can outlast who here.



The Raikage constantly fought for 3 days [1], which is easily a superior feat of endurance.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> None of the two possibilities, since there are scans *where he is showed with cracks even without having received any previous damage.*



and how many scans are there that suit this criteria vs no cracks?


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> so no manga evidence that suggests this results in the cracks?
> 
> 
> if this is true, then would you mind posting scans of how Tobirama and hashirama differ from their current edo tensei forms as far as cracks are concerned?
> ...



Why would you need manga evidence to explain body decomposition ? The bodies of the Edo's are stored in a coffin for a fairly long time, marred cracks will start to appear. Bacterial will soon appear and will take action.

I doubt it's as cut and dry as the person being reincarnated as how they physically were in their lifetime/before their death. Someone mentioned a while back that it is probably how the person's soul perceived itself at the time of death, which is why Sasori didn't get reincarnated as his core of living flesh and why Nagato still couldn't walk properly though the legs of whomever's body he occupied were functional. Though, the deceased bodies have undergone modification such as decay and other processes.

Chiyo was revived as an old hag, the only one in his prime and beyond is Madara. This pretty much confirms that they are revived in a state from the point the DNA gets *collected.* The way I perceive it, Kabuto simply used blood from younger Madara (the Hashirama's sword he got pierced with for example could serve as a source) and added Hashirama's genes into the mix, reviving young Madara with already the latter's powers as his own.

You just contradicted yourself, you do admit that the "Cracks" where part of the original body ? Anyways, after the "Raikage" got hit by a "Rasen-shuriken", a bunch of cracks appeared momentarily, a few seconds later, they disappeared 1 

Note* I was referring to the cracks that appeared on the "Rasen shuriken", not the ones that appeared when the bodies were resurrected.

You did not understand my post, the "Raikage" was resurrected with a bunch of "Cracks", I never once stated that the "Rasengan" or "Rasenshuriken" wouldn't have been able to produce any more "Cracks" on his body.

You clearly don't understand that he had the "Cracks" long before he fought naruto and the alliance.

The rest of the bodies have cracks, he does too... 1 what are you trying to pull here ?


The point still remains that only Kishimoto can answer this, if he chooses to or not. Some things just have to be accepted and moved on. But as far as I can tell, people are reincarnated in the state that they were before they died. Accept it either as part of the plot or the fact that in Nagato or Itachi's case (assuming the latter was "blind") that their souls were reincarnated into fully functioning corpses, hence defects of their previous body would have no bearing on those bodies.

You just made a groundless claim. When did I ever state that the rasen shuriken did not harm the "raikage" ?

You seem to not grasp that the "Cracks" appeared long before his aforementioned battles.

Orochimaru's Impure world ressurection is leagues above Kabuto's,  Orochimaru's control of the reincarnated Hokage is stronger than before, as he even pondered whether he should destroy Konoha if Sasuke ever deems its destruction.


----------



## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> and how many scans are there that suit this criteria vs no cracks?



These are the ones that Jad and Reality already linked [1 ; 2], there might be more though.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

braddah, would you mine quoting the exact statements you are replying to.  It makes it a lot easier for me to respond, and thus will benefit the discussion.



Reality said:


> Why would you need manga evidence to explain body decomposition ? The bodies of the Edo's are stored in a coffin for a fairly long time, marred cracks will start to appear. Bacterial will soon appear and will take action.


Thank you for openly stating this since I can now deliver the knockdown of your argument.

If what you say is true, then why do Minato, Tobirama, Hashirama and Hiruzen have cracks on them despite never being stored in a coffin? 




Reality said:


> I doubt it's as cut and dry as the person being reincarnated as how they physically were in their lifetime/before their death. Someone mentioned a while back that it is probably how the person's soul perceived itself at the time of death, which is why Sasori didn't get reincarnated as his core of living flesh and why Nagato still couldn't walk properly though the legs of whomever's body he occupied were functional. Though, the deceased bodies have undergone modification such as decay and other processes.





Reality said:


> N Chiyo was revived as an old hag, the only one in his prime and beyond is Madara. *This pretty much confirms that they are revived in a state from the point the DNA gets collected.* The way I perceive it, Kabuto simply used blood from younger Madara (the Hashirama's sword he got pierced with for example could serve as a source) and added Hashirama's genes into the mix, reviving young Madara with already the latter's powers as his own.


The bolded is utterly false.  

When collecting the DNA for the edos, Kabuto stated that some of the bodies were in such bad shape that he couldn't even recognize them, yet none of the edos look like that.



Reality said:


> You just contradicted yourself, you do admit that the "Cracks" where part of the original body ? Anyways, after the "Raikage" got hit by a "Rasen-shuriken", a bunch of cracks appeared momentarily, a few seconds latter, they disappeared 2



read the entire chapter, the cracks CONSISTENTLY were present on the Raikage, I have been telling you this for PAGES.

debate honestly, I shouldn't have to call you out on things like this.



Reality said:


> Note* I was referring to the cracks that appeared on the "Rasen shuriken", not the ones that appeared when the bodies were resurrected.


so you admit that FRS caused cracks to appear on the body?



Reality said:


> You did not understand my post, the "Raikage" was resurrected with a bunch of "Cracks", I never once stated that the "Rasengan" or "Rasenshuriken" wouldn't be able to produce any more "Cracks" on his body.


then what exactly are you arguing?



Reality said:


> You clearly don't understand that he had the "Cracks" long before he fought naruto and the alliance.


that disappeared long before he fought Naruto, which makes them irrelevant to FRS



Reality said:


> The rest of the bodies have cracks, he does too... 2 what are you trying to pull here ?


yeah, way back then, yet those cracks disappear long before he fights naruto and thus is irrelevant.  HE is consistantly shown to have no cracks when no damage is taken.



Reality said:


> The point still remains that only Kishimoto can answer this, if he chooses to or not. Some things just have to be accepted and moved on. But as far as I can tell, *people are reincarnated in the state that they were before they died.* Accept it either as part of the plot or the fact that in Nagato or Itachi's case (assuming the latter was "blind") that their souls were reincarnated into fully functioning corpses, hence defects of their previous body would have no bearing on those bodies.


Brotherin, I think you just went full retard.  Look at what you say in this exact same post:


Reality said:


> This pretty much confirms that they are revived in a state from the point the DNA gets *collected.*



So which is it? Do they get revived in the state in which they died, or when the DNA is collected?



Reality said:


> You basically just made a groundless claim. When did I ever state that the rasen shuriken did not harm the "raikage" ?


if you are not stating that, then what exactly is your claim?



Reality said:


> You seem to not grasp that the "Cracks" appeared long before his aforementioned battles.


You donot seem to grasp that the cracks disappeared long before Sandaime was hit with FRS and thus is irrelevant.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> These are the ones that Jad and Reality already linked [1 ; 2], there might be more though.



First one is irrelevant since all edos come out of their coffins looking like that, even ones like other past kages whom have shown no cracks over the course of the war when not damaged.

So that leaves just one scan vs chapters of closeups of Sandaime raikage yielding no cracks when not damaged by an attack.

So my point still stands that he is consistently shown to not have cracks when not damaged by an attack.


----------



## Rage of Hate (Feb 19, 2013)

Raikage wins the match. he will simply outlast minato.


----------



## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> First one is irrelevant since all edos come out of their coffins looking like that, even ones like other past kages whom have shown no cracks over the course of the war when not damaged.



So? It shows that Edos have cracks on their bodies despite not being damaged, which is what you asked.

There is also this one [1], where he has cracks on his traps.



> So my point still stands that he is consistently shown to not have cracks when not damaged by an attack.



But he is not consistently shown without cracks, at best he is shown most of the times without cracks when not damaged.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> So? It shows that Edos have cracks on their bodies despite not being damaged, which is what you asked.


But it's irrelevant since that scan applies to ALL edos right after they are taken out of their coffins, even the ones that have been shown to NEVER have cracks on their bodies like the other kages.




blk said:


> There is also this one [1], where he has cracks on his traps.


if those are even cracks, they are barely anything, they could just be the lines of his traps from that angle.

We are looking for clear definitive cracks on his body comparable to the instances after he gets hit by FRS, preferebly directly after.




blk said:


> But he is not consistently shown without cracks, at best he is shown most of the times without cracks when not damaged.


the vast majority of times including closeups = consistent

Now blk, the whole argument is that FRS caused the cracks you see from this page till this page.

If your stance on that argument is that it didn't, then I will debate you.  If however, if that is the case, please refrain from debating me just for the sake of posing a counterargument.


----------



## Rage of Hate (Feb 19, 2013)

this match is like night crawler vs Juggernaut


----------



## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> But it's irrelevant since that scan applies to ALL edos right after they are taken out of their coffins, even the ones that have been shown to NEVER have cracks on their bodies like the other kages.



Still doesn't change anything.
Edos have cracks on their bodies even if they are not damaged, so, for all we know, the presence or the absence of cracks can just depend on Kishimoto's preference.



> if those are even cracks, they are barely anything, they could just be the lines of his traps from that angle.



Yeah, because the cracks that the Rasengan did were very definite.




> the vast majority of times including closeups = consistent



The showings are not consistent, because there are few where he has cracks despite not being damaged.


----------



## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

I still didn't understand your arguement.

Here he shows no cracks on his face. And he was clearly hit away from the face by Temari's technique.

this

Than here you can see a slight crack.
this
and it is clearly visible here
this

But you told me that those cracks must have appeared because he was hit on the face off panel. So you are telling me a much DEEPER wound from Temari from the first scan I showed you, healed faster and disappeared than a wound you THINK happened off panel and is inconsistent?


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> Still doesn't change anything.
> Edos have cracks on their bodies even if they are not damaged, so, for all we know, the presence or the absence of cracks can just depend on Kishimoto's preference.


I have already shown that because all the edos have cracks right when they come out of their coffins which would include the edos that show no cracks ever, it is irrelevant, and thus it is absolutely NOT dependent on Kishimoto's preference.





blk said:


> Yeah, because the cracks that the Rasengan did were very definite.


the thing that makes the cracks for the rasengan relevant is their placement around the rasengan and lack of cracks anywhere else.  

We don't get this luxury for FRS, thus this is the argument for FRS feat.




blk said:


> The showings are not consistent, because there are few where he has cracks despite not being damaged.


You gave 1 solid showing, while we have numerous closeups of no cracks whatsoever.  

The showings are very consistent.

And answer the entire post, if you are only posting to antagonize, then please stop.


----------



## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

I'm going to throw this out there, those cracks are probably appearing because the 'dirt/earth' that is covering them is getting distorted. You are right, those lines are drawn in an area where the Rasengan is hitting. It probably takes a good hit, as Naruto did with his Rasengan, to distort the 'masking', considering there are scans of them already crackling in various shots at random moments.

I don't think 'small' cracks is indicative of having an effect to a degree that you are on about, where Minato only needs 4 shots to put him down with a rasengan. Because they were already crackling beforehand, so the binding was already iffy to begin with. Rasengan would have done the job as shown in that scan. To further crackle the state.


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> braddah, would you mine quoting the exact statements you are replying to.  It makes it a lot easier for me to respond, and thus will benefit the discussion.
> 
> 
> Thank you for openly stating this since I can now deliver the knockdown of your argument.
> ...




They were all stored in coffins in part 1, although Minato didn't appear for the obvious. 

Because Bodies don't always have to be in coffins to decay. :Zaru
There several factors: the temperature and humidity, whether the body is in buried or not, in, underground or not, embalmed or not, exposed to insects or carnivores or not. 

In this case, the bodies were inside the "Reaper's" stomach, I'm guessing they were slowly decomposing. unquantifiable.

Refutation continues.

You realize he could've gotten their ashes ?

Any DNA is sufficient, doesn't have to be only corpses/remains as he used blood and didn't specify what kind. I don't see why a genetic source from young Hiruzen should revive him as an old man. It's logical and explains basically speaks for itself. Still a faulty example. Kabuto's mentioned that he takes the DNA from corpses or more than likely their last battlefields. (cite Jiraiya) 

DNA is damaged and repaired at every moment, both by environmental elements and by the very nature of the duplication process. If it's out of a body and properly stored, it can be maintained in a stable form for a long while, though I'm not sure how long. DNA changes very little during life, it accumulates said damage. Considering Kabuto took it from graves, it's obvious it doesn't need to be in top shape.


You haven't been telling me this, you constantly blabbered that the "Crack's'' were shutting on and off like a television. Several people in this page tried telling you that.


When did I ever mention that "Futon rasen shuriken" didn't cause any "Crack's" ?

Now this is where you mentioned your mistake, you fail to interpret what others say. I have been telling you several post above that the "Crack's" appear when one is resurrected.

What I meant from that post is that once Kabuto collects a deceased akatsuki members DNA, they regaine their forms and jutsus. He only needs a small sample of their body in order to "Revive" them.

They did not disappear, the damage FRS inflicted upon raikage "disappeared", not the "Cracks" that came with the "Edo Tensei".


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Jad said:


> I still didn't understand your arguement.
> 
> Here he shows no cracks on his face. And he was clearly hit away from the face by Temari's technique.
> 
> ...



You make a good point, thus I concede the that the cracks were from a previous wound.

Thus I'll resume the second part of my argument that its an art inconsistency like the other scan, which is why the cracks appear and disappear panel by panel unlike the cracks from FRS.

In addition to that, in order for this to be comparable to the FRS, the appearing and disappearing cracks would have to be comparable to the total amount of cracks Sandaime has on his body right after FRS hit.


----------



## Language of Life (Feb 19, 2013)

Raikage outlasts. Minato is faster and harder to hit, Raikage is far more durable and has much greater stamina. This fight would be long and boring, but Eventually Raikage takes it. 
I also don't really see how restricting shiki fujiin is a nerf. They would both die, and the match would really have no winner unless a certain objective was foiled or something.


----------



## Jad (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> You make a good point, thus I concede the that the cracks were from a previous wound.
> 
> Thus I'll resume the second part of my argument that its an art inconsistency like the other scan, which is why the cracks appear and disappear panel by panel unlike the cracks from FRS.
> 
> In addition to that, in order for this to be comparable to the FRS, the appearing and disappearing cracks would have to be comparable to the total amount of cracks Sandaime has on his body right after FRS hit.



I addressed that in my last post, in which I stated that their 'mask', the makeup of their 'image' is ever changing and not bonded as tight as you would believe. Hence the crackling, and thus something like FRS or Rasengan would only further the already distorted look. I explained it I think a bit better in my last post. That's my take.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Read my above post to Jad.
> 
> Him having cracks before an attack is an art inconsistency because it is only shown in 1 panel throughout his appearances in multiple chapters.  All his other appearances have him with no cracks.
> 
> ...



But shouldn't be the opposite? Yeah the part where he begins showing cracks after being hit is very logical, but i still guess that him not showing cracks is an inconsistency because of the fight, Kishi cared little about this. Look at his first appearance

this

He has crack in his face and body. All edos as well. Kishi makes details when he's not creating a fight. And he keeps creating cracks with the current Edos. I guess the only edo he did not use cracks anymore is Madara.

But like i said, in his very first panel he had cracks, and before fighting as well. Edo does not smoke when hit, the smoke was because of the FRS, Edo just have look to be getting destroyed part by part when hit, like Konan's paper but in a smaller forms.

Your argument is very good of course, but there are his appearances with cracks as well (The first one more than any other) + Naruto's words.


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> You make a good point, thus I concede the that the cracks were from a previous wound.
> 
> Thus I'll resume the second part of my argument that its an art inconsistency like the other scan, which is why the cracks appear and disappear panel by panel unlike the cracks from FRS.
> 
> In addition to that, in order for this to be comparable to the FRS,* the appearing and disappearing cracks would have to be comparable to the total amount of cracks Sandaime* has on his body right after FRS hit.



- There are "permanent" cracks due to "Edo tensei" (Which you claim art inconsistency, should rather be called Kishimoto-laziness)

- There are also the scars that auto-regenarate caused by Rasenshuriken and Temari's Kamai-itachi.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

brotherin, if you don't start making the effort to break my post into quotes, I'm not gunna respond to you.



Reality said:


> They were all stored in coffins in part 1, although Minato didn't appear for the obvious.


That's irrelevant since the actual edo body is a new one, and it's not only minato but hiruzen as well.  So I guess this is a concession.



Reality said:


> Because Bodies don't always have to be in coffins to decay. :Zaru
> There several factors: the temperature and humidity, whether the body is in buried or not, in, underground or not, embalmed or not, exposed to insects or carnivores or not.


are you serious?  This is completely irrelevant since the bodies were just creaeted.



Reality said:


> In this case, the bodies were inside the "Reaper's" stomach, I'm guessing they were slowly decomposing. unquantifiable.


the souls were inside the reaper's stomach, NOT the bodies.



Reality said:


> You realize he could've gotten their ashes ?


please stop going full retard.  If he got their ashes, then it means that their body is destroyed and thus if they are resurected in the state they were at when he got their DNA then they would be a pile of ashes.



Reality said:


> Any DNA is sufficient, doesn't have to be only corpses/remains as he used blood and didn't specify what kind. I don't see why a genetic source from young Hiruzen should revive him as an old man. It's logical and explains basically speaks for itself. Still a faulty example. Kabuto's mentioned that he takes the DNA from corpses or more than likely their last battlefields. (cite Jiraiya)


irrelevant, if your definition does not work for some cases, then the definition is false.  It may work for Hiruzen being young, but it does not work for people who's bodies have been destroyed.



Reality said:


> DNA is damaged and repaired at every moment, both by environmental elements and by the very nature of the duplication process. If it's out of a body and properly stored, it can be maintained in a stable form for a long while, though I'm not sure how long. DNA changes very little during life, it accumulates said damage. Considering Kabuto took it from graves, it's obvious it doesn't need to be in top shape.


Stop strawmanning your own arguments.  No one ever said anything about the DNa having to be in good shape, you are the one saying they are resurrected in the same way they were when their DNA was retrieved.



Reality said:


> You haven't been telling me this, you constantly blabbered that the "Crack's'' were shutting on and off like a television. Several people in this page tried telling you that.




debate honestly and look at the arguments I have given to these other people.  



Reality said:


> When did I ever mention that "Futon rasen shuriken" doesn't cause "Crack's" ?


Answer the question



Reality said:


> Now this is where you mentioned your mistake, you fail to interpret what others say. I have been telling you several post above that the "Crack's" appear when one is resurrected.


Stop going full retard.  I fully understand that cracks appear when one is resurrected, it is YOU who doesn't understand that these cracks are irrelevant to the FRS vs Sandaime since all those cracks are gone long before that takes place.



Reality said:


> What I meant from that post is that once Kabuto collects a deceased akatsuki members DNA, they regaine their forms and jutsus. He only needs a small sample of their body in order to "Revive" them.


No you didn't, you strait up said 2 completely contradictory stances.  




Reality said:


> They did not disappear, the damage FRS inflicted upon raikage "disappeared", not the "Cracks" that came with the "Edo Tensei".


The damage FRS inflicted on Sandaime created the cracks.  The cracks were regenerated from and thus in the next chapter those cracks have disappeared.

If the cracks that came with edo tensei didn't disappear show them to me.


----------



## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I have already shown that because all the edos have cracks right when they come out of their coffins which would include the edos that show no cracks ever, it is irrelevant, and thus it is absolutely NOT dependent on Kishimoto's preference.



There are Edos that have cracks after being summoned even if they aren't being damaged; the cracks are clearly dependents on Kishimoto's preference.




> the thing that makes the cracks for the rasengan relevant is their placement around the rasengan and lack of cracks anywhere else.
> 
> We don't get this luxury for FRS, thus this is the argument for FRS feat.



Double standard? You said that the lines on the traps could be something different from cracks (despite that lines of the traps are not in such a position and so irregular). So, using your reasoning, miniscule lines like the ones that there were in the Rasengan case could just be signs that his skin is being subjected to a force or something like that, not necessarily cracks.



> You gave 1 solid showing, while we have numerous closeups of no cracks whatsoever.
> 
> The showings are very consistent.



Aside from the fact that i gave 3 showings (and there is also what Jad posted), even if there would be only 1, by virtue of the definition of the same word, the showings would be not consistent.




> And answer the entire post, if you are only posting to antagonize, then please stop.



What you say about the FRS is dependent on the consistency argument.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> But shouldn't be the opposite? Yeah the part where he begins showing cracks after being hit is very logical, but i still guess that him not showing cracks is an inconsistency because of the fight, Kishi cared little about this. Look at his first appearance


it's not just showing cracks after being hit, its also the fact that these cracks gradually fade away (edo regen).



TheIronMan said:


> this
> 
> He has crack in his face and body. All edos as well. Kishi makes details when he's not creating a fight. And he keeps creating cracks with the current Edos. I guess the only edo he did not use cracks anymore is Madara.


If you look at the other past kages, I believe they also were the only ones who have been shown cracks in that one panel (when they are first brought out), after that, they show no cracks on them unless they are damaged.  

How they start out is really irrelevant, Sandaime Raikage consistently is shown in closeup views with no cracks until he is hit with an attack, in which case he is consistently shown with cracks that gradually disappear.  I find no other plausible explanation for this than FRS created those cracks.



TheIronMan said:


> But like i said, in his very first panel he had cracks, and before fighting as well. Edo does not smoke when hit, the smoke was because of the FRS, Edo just have look to be getting destroyed part by part when hit, like Konan's paper but in a smaller forms.


if the damage is not great, edos do smoke while they heal.



TheIronMan said:


> Your argument is very good of course, but there are his appearances with cracks as well (The first one more than any other) + Naruto's words.


Thank you.

And like I said, every edo, even ones like gaara's dad whom never show cracks appear with cracks the first time, so that showing wouldn't apply to Sandaime just randomly being drawn with tons of cracks on him after being out for a long time.

Finally Naruto's words aren't really contradictory either.  Sandaime just had a lot of cracks on him, none of them being large enough to be considered what Naruto calls a "scratch".  In addition to this, we do know that FRS was strong enough to damage him to the point where he emitted a few edo tensei papers.  So I think it's really Naruto's definition of what "a scratch" is.


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> brotherin, if you don't start making the effort to break my post into quotes, I'm not gunna respond to you.
> 
> 
> That's irrelevant since the actual edo body is a new one, and it's not only minato but hiruzen as well.  So I guess this is a concession.
> ...




If you can't accept your mistake, then stop making excuses.

The bodies weren't just created, they were store up in the Demon's gut. 

answer the question. 

Bodies or souls, you understand what I meant, answer it.

You do realize there are some ninja's that he should have no way of getting ahold of their blood. Deidara blew up his body and their should have been know way of getting a hold of his body.

now you're gonna tell me "ashes" don't come handy ?

Irrelevant ? nice counterattack.

Kabuto obviously has various ways of obtaining DNA.

Strawmanning ? totally.


I outright explained my previous post.

You kept arguing if the FRS created "Cracks". You keep on changing your arguments. Everyone here has been trying to tell you that the "Cracks" come with the Edo tensei.


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> brotherin, if you don't start making the effort to break my post into quotes, I'm not gunna respond to you.
> 
> 
> That's irrelevant since the actual edo body is a new one, and it's not only minato but hiruzen as well.  So I guess this is a concession.
> ...


You do realize the body does not have to remain in top shape. EXP: loss of limb or incinerated body. Kabuto can always manipulate the DNA of others like he did with manda.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> There are Edos that have cracks after being summoned even if they aren't being damaged; the cracks are clearly dependents on Kishimoto's preference.


But this is irrelevant since the presence of edo tenseis that do not show any cracks after being summoned (while in the same scan as other edo tenseis who do have cracks) proves that all edo tenseis show cracks right after being initially summoned.





blk said:


> Double standard? You said that the lines on the traps could be something different from cracks (despite that lines of the traps are not in such a position and so irregular). So, using your reasoning, miniscule lines like the ones that there were in the Rasengan case could just be signs that his skin is being subjected to a force or something like that, not necessarily cracks.


Read my post again, the biggest reason for the rasengan lines is not the size, but the way they are configured and their location: spawning from the rasengan and traveling out from the radius while there are no other cracks present.  




blk said:


> Aside from the fact that i gave 3 showings (and there is also what Jad posted), even if there would be only 1, by virtue of the definition of the same word, the showings would be not consistent.


Yet I have shown that all of your showings bar 1 are not equivocal to either the lines produced from FRS (due to quantity and size of lines) or rasengan (due to orientation and layout).

and we can change "consistent" to "vast majority" if you just want to argue semantics, but the meaning is the same.





blk said:


> What you say about the FRS is dependent on the consistency argument.


Not really, the consistency argument is just a part of the whole argument that FRS damaged Sandaime raikage and caused the cracks.

Once again, are you arguing that FRS did not cause the cracks?  I have a strong feeling that you are just posting in order to antagonize.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> If you can't accept your mistake, then stop making excuses.
> 
> The bodies weren't just created, they were store up in the Demon's gut.
> 
> ...



Yep, I'm not going to honor this with a response if you can't make the effort to multiquote.



Reality said:


> - There are "permanent" cracks due to "Edo tensei" (Which you claim art inconsistency, should rather be called Kishimoto-laziness)


the problem with this is that these so called "permanent" cracks disappear completely for the sandaime despite him receiving many closeups, and thus why would Kishi suddenly decide to consistently draw these permanent scratches after Sandaime gets hit with an FRS?



Reality said:


> - There are also the scars that auto-regenarate caused by Rasenshuriken and Temari's Kamai-itachi.


Which would be the scars we see that cover sandaime raikage's body after  the attack considering they gradually disappear as the chapter goes by instead of abruptly disappearing and reappearing like lazy-art.


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Yep, I'm not going to honor this with a response if you can't make the effort to multiquote.
> 
> 
> the problem with this is that these so called "permanent" cracks disappear completely for the sandaime despite him receiving many closeups, and thus why would Kishi suddenly decide to consistently draw these permanent scratches after Sandaime gets hit with an FRS?
> ...




For the third "Raikage's" case, they disappear because Kishimoto chose to do so. On the other hand, the scars that auto-regenerate disappear due to his regenerative ability. 

Not sure why you took your time on explaining this...


----------



## blk (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Read my post again, the biggest reason for the rasengan lines is not the size, but the way they are configured and their location: spawning from the rasengan and traveling out from the radius while there are no other cracks present.



I knew what you meant, but this is kind of a double standard if you simply disregard the fact that Sandaime had cracks on his face/traps in the scan that i linked.



> Yet I have shown that all of your showings bar 1 are not equivocal to either the lines produced from FRS (due to quantity and size of lines) or rasengan (due to orientation and layout).
> 
> and we can change "consistent" to "vast majority" if you just want to argue semantics, but the meaning is the same.



It's not quite the same thing.
If the showings were really consistent, you would have a pretty strong evidence for your argument; though, without consistency there is no way to tell if it is matter of random preference of the author or something else.

I still think that at least 2 of the scans that i shown were not equivocal, and in addition there is also what Jad said previously.




> Not really, the consistency argument is just a part of the whole argument that FRS damaged Sandaime raikage and caused the cracks.
> 
> Once again, are you arguing that FRS did not cause the cracks?  I have a strong feeling that you are just posting in order to antagonize.



I know that there are other things that support the argument that the FRS cracked the Sandaime, but i'm saying that you shouldn't try to support said argument with one based on a consistency that doesn't exist.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 19, 2013)

Those who said that Itachi's Susano'o or its legendary items can't damage Sandaime leave now.
Because you don't have anything to discuss here.


On topc :

This might end in a stalemate. Raikage can't touch Minato, and Minato can't kill raikage. You might argue that Minato could tag Raikage and repeatedly hit his head with rasengans. If a single rasengan staggers Raikage to the extend that he can't counter attack, then Minato could possibly win that way. But If Raikage takes a rasengan and still maintains his actions, then he might just counter hit Minato & kill him.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> *For the third "Raikage's" case, they disappear because Kishimoto chose to do so.* On the other hand, the scars that auto-regenerate disappear due to his regenerative ability.


yet the bolded is baseless because Kishi has NEVER only shown the raikage with scars before he is hit with the FRS, throughout his entire showing he is consistently shown to have not have any cracks on his body even in the closeups.

So "because kishi chose to" is not an explanation for the fact that the cracks appear only after Sandaime takes a hit from FRS and gradually disappear.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

blk said:


> I knew what you meant, but this is kind of a double standard if you simply disregard the fact that Sandaime had cracks on his face/traps in the scan that i linked.


it's really not because of the reasons I listed.




blk said:


> It's not quite the same thing.
> If the showings were really consistent, you would have a pretty strong evidence for your argument; though, without consistency there is no way to tell if it is matter of random preference of the author or something else.
> 
> I still think that at least 2 of the scans that i shown were not equivocal, and in addition there is also what Jad said previously.


do you mean "at least 2 of the scans were equivocal?"  And I've already explained why the scans are not equivocal, you have to attack my explanation, you can't just say "well I think the scans are equivocal".





blk said:


> I know that there are other things that support the argument that the FRS cracked the Sandaime, but i'm saying that you shouldn't try to support said argument with one based on a consistency that doesn't exist.


Are you serious brotherin?  

You have only brought 1 panel to the table that is somewhat equivalent to the cracks Sandaime receives after FRS while throughout all his other showings and closeups he has virtually no cracks on him, then he gets hit with a FRS all of a sudden he is consistently drawn with cracks for the rest of the chapter.

So Sandaime raikage throughout the majority of his panels shown to be crackless when not hit by an attack is "a consistency that doesn't exist?"  

I don't understand how one could honestly and unbiasely say that those cracks were drawn "just because kishi wanted to"


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Feb 19, 2013)

Minato wins of course, but slightly. You see, I think we can all conclude, that without any enhancements, Minato has the best reflexes in the manga, surpassing A, even in V2. If it came down to it. I honestly believe Minato, with his reflexes and FTG can redirect Nukite back at Sandaime, and win. It's possible, and Minato's intellect leaves no room for doubt.

Minato also has a better coat, and better hair. Just saying.


----------



## Doctor Lamperouge (Feb 19, 2013)

I hope OP realizes that restricting nukite ironically lowers Minato's chances of winning. So its like you double restricted Minato.


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> yet the bolded is baseless because Kishi has NEVER only shown the raikage with scars before he is hit with the FRS, throughout his entire showing he is consistently shown to have not have any cracks on his body even in the closeups.
> 
> So "because kishi chose to" is not an explanation for the fact that the cracks appear only after Sandaime takes a hit from FRS and gradually disappear.



You clearly don't understand a word. Kishimoto's way showing disappearing cracks is an inconsistency because they don't really need to put "Drawn" due to not being a such big deal._BFR_. (Crack"s) no (Crack's) 

 Sandaime and the rest of the "Edo's" were resurrected with "Crack"s, even the jinchurikii's. Yondaime hokage, someone who has never gotten a scar on his face during his lifetime was resurrected with "Crack's" on his face this. The "Crack's" are a sign of body decay which doesn't always have to be rot in a "Coffin".  

Then why haven't the "Crack's" that come with "Edo tensei" heal ? your argument isn't helping you out. The battle scars the third "Raikage" received disappear because of the regenerative ability "Edo tensei" grants, Link removed (Raikage healing after getting hit by a rasen-shuriken) albeit the crack's don't disappear, it is unwise to assume that they should heal because that is "Speculation".


You are in denial, stop trying to deliberately avoid the truth, "Kishimoto" has shown the Raikage and multiple "Edo's" with "Cracks" even before they engaged in battle.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> You clearly don't understand a word. Kishimoto's way showing disappearing cracks is an inconsistency because they don't really need to put "Drawn" due to not being a such big deal._BFR_. (Crack"s) no (Crack's)


irrelevant since Sandaime Raikage is CONSISTENTLY shown to not have cracks when not hit with an attack, and then when hit with the FRS he is once again CONSISTENTLY drawn with cracks all over his body.

There is absolutely no way you can look at this objectively and say "it's just Kishimoto being inconsistent with drawing scratches".





Reality said:


> Sandaime and the rest of the "Edo's" were resurrected with "Crack"s, even the jinchurikii's. Yondaime hokage, someone who has never gotten a scar on his face during his lifetime and was resurrected with "Crack's" on his face *Jinton takes a few seconds to produce*. The "Crack's" are a sign of body decay which doesn't always have to be rot in a "Coffin".


I already delivered the knockdown of your "bodily decay" argument due to the fact that all the past kages have cracks on them despite their bodies given no time to decay.  

The fact that you are forced to argue that the "souls" of the past hokages decay while within the death god in order to combat that point is basically concessionary.

And the edos having cracks initially are irrelevant since those cracks disappear later for Sandaime Raikage and other edos.



Reality said:


> *Then why haven't the "Crack's" that come with "Edo tensei" heal *? your argument isn't helping you out. The battle scars the third "Raikage" received disappear because of the regenerative ability "Edo tensei" grants, *Jinton takes a few seconds to produce* (Raikage healing after getting hit by a rasen-shuriken) albeit the crack's don't disappear, it is unwise to assume that they should heal because that is "Speculation".


They do disappear, which is why we consistently see Sandaime without any cracks on his body.  Your assertion that it's merely "speculation" that the cracks heal isn't even warranted if you would bother to even look at sandaime raikage throughout his edo showings.



Reality said:


> You are in denial, stop trying to deliberately avoid the truth, "Kishimoto" has shown the Raikage and multiple "Edo's" with "Cracks" even before they engaged in battle.


You would be the one who is in complete denial and with the heavy bias, which is why you have to resort to generalized statements like this while ignoring my argument.

All edos have cracks when initially created or released from their coffins.  Some edos continue to have those cracks, others like Sandaime Raikage and past kages don't.  
Kishi consistently has drawn Sandaime Raikage with no cracks until he is hit with an attack.  not only this, but after we see the cracks from the attack, kishi continues to CONSISTENTLY draw Sandaime with cracks all over his body.

Thus besides FRS created those cracks, there is no other plausible explanation for the cracks on Sandaime other than "Well kishi just so happened to decide to draw Sandaime with tons of cracks all over his body after the attack despite not doing so for all the chapters he has been shown". 

So no, your arguments are extremely explanatory deficient, and thus fails.


----------



## KnightGhost (Feb 19, 2013)

Minato is fast but he runs out of chakra.

The 3rd beat him to death after words with his bear hands


----------



## Reality (Feb 19, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> irrelevant since Sandaime Raikage is CONSISTENTLY shown to not have cracks when not hit with an attack, and then when hit with the FRS he is once again CONSISTENTLY drawn with cracks all over his body.
> 
> There is absolutely no way you can look at this objectively and say "it's just Kishimoto being inconsistent with drawing scratches".
> 
> ...




You fail to understand a thing, the Edo's come with the "Crack's". You can see "All" the Edo's with "Crack's"  this is before they engaged in battle. This is due to the corpse buried under the ground.



You haven't refuted anything thus far. Just because the bodies weren't in the Coffin doesn't mean they will not "Decay". When a person's heart stops beating, the body's cells are released of oxygen and die. Blood then begins draining from the circulatory system and pools in the low-lying areas of the body. The body will have lost all of its internal heat. The muscles will begin to lose rigor mortis after about 36 hours, and the stiffness will be completely gone after 72 hours. It can surprisingly take 3 days for the body to decay if you add the factors.

You do realize once the "Kage's" died they were in a horrible state. The deceased revived "Edo tensei's" were all buried; thereby, slowly decaying.

The Edo's soul can be called back to the world and return to it's current decayed corpse. For the Kage's, the death god does not have the "Bodies" on his disposition, he only has the "Soul".

I never said that. The souls can't decay, it is impossible. However, the bodies can decay.

Are you trying to say that this only applies to the Third raikage ? 

The "Crack's" that come with the Edo's can't heal but the damage inflicted on the body (such as rasenshuriken and temari's wind gust) auto regenerate for the obvious.  A as you can see here, the scar is "healing".

Take itachi for example, he was resurrected with "Crack's"   and died with "Crack's"http://www.narutoflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/naruto578itachi_by_kushinastefy.jpg

Kishimoto purposely removes them from time to time. but, they can't auto regenerate like I explained above. 

By your logic, you're saying the crack's basically turn and off at any time given ? now this is a groundless claim.

So I counter your "Groundless" arguments with facts and you end up denying ? 'It seems that you have chosen an arbitrary excuse to not have to deal with my arguments.

Your comment aren't explaining anything, you have yet to explain why my points are groundless.

"All edos have cracks when initially created or released from their coffins. Some edos continue to have those cracks, others like Sandaime Raikage and past kages don't." This is what I've been trying to explain to you, Sandaime is shown continually shown with, sometimes they disappear due to "Kishimoto".

Despite being cut in half, Itachi died with "Crack's" on his body _BFR_

Here we see raikage getting hit by a rasenshuriken; Don't tell me that it only applies to the Raikage. A

He get's up as if nothing happens, although the "Scars" that came with the Edo tensei still remain A

Your excuse is basically claiming that the disappearing "Crack's only apply to Raikage" it is highly unlikely and is speculation based on no proof at all, Therefore, your points fail


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 19, 2013)

Reality said:


> You fail to understand a thing, the Edo's come with the "Crack's". You can see "All" the Edo's with "Crack's"  this is before they engaged in battle. This is due to the corpse buried under the ground.


irrelevant as explained before




Reality said:


> You haven't refuted anything thus far. Just because a the bodies weren't in the Coffin doesn't mean they will not "Decay". When a person's heart stops beating, the body's cells are released of oxygen and die. Blood then begins draining from the circulatory system and pools in the low-lying areas of the body. The body will have lost all of its internal heat. The muscles will begin to lose rigor mortis after about 36 hours, and the stiffness will be completely gone after 72 hours. It can surprisingly take 3 days for the body to decay if you add the factors.
> 
> You do realize once the "Kage's" died they were in a horrible state. *The deceased revived "Edo tensei's" were all buried; thereby, slowly decaying.*


I've already refuted the argument that edos are revived in the state they are in when their DNA is collected.



Reality said:


> The Edo's soul can be called back to the world and return to it's current decayed corpse. *For the Kage's, the death god does not have the "Bodies" on his disposition, he only has the "Soul".*
> 
> I never said that. The souls can't decay, it is impossible. However, the bodies can decay.


now read what you typed earlier:


Reality said:


> In this case, the bodies were inside the "Reaper's" stomach, I'm guessing they were slowly decomposing. unquantifiable.


This is neg-worthy.




Reality said:


> Are you trying to say that this only applies to the Third raikage ?


no it applies to edos that are consistently shown without cracks which include the third raikage



Reality said:


> The "Crack's" that come with the Edo's can't heal but the damage inflicted on the body (such as rasenshuriken and temari's wind gust) auto regenerate for the obvious.  Suiton: Senshokukō as you can see here, the scar is "healing".
> 
> Take itachi for example, he was resurrected with "Crack's"   and died with "Crack's"http://www.narutoflame.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/naruto578itachi_by_kushinastefy.jpg


already addressed this




Reality said:


> Kishimoto purposely removes them from time to time. but, they can't auto regenerate like I explained above.


already explained



Reality said:


> By your logic, you're saying the crack's basically turn and off at any time given ? now this is a groundless claim.


why is that so?  And if it's just merely kishi's inconsistency with drawing the cracks, then lets look at Sandaime.  How does Kishi consistently draw undamaged Sandaime Raikage?  With no cracks.  

Why then, after he gets hit with FRS would kishi suddenly draw his entire body with even more cracks than what he had when he first became an edo?

The answer is painfully obvious: that FRS created all those cracks.  If Sandaime indeed did have the cracks that he had when he first appeared, the since Kishi has consistently chosen to NOT draw these cracks, why would we assume that Kishi suddenly would draw these cracks?



Reality said:


> So I counter your "Groundless" arguments with facts and you end up denying ? 'It seems that you have chosen an arbitrary excuse to not have to deal with my argument
> 
> Your comment aren't explaining anything, you have yet to explain why my points are groundless.
> 
> ...


already addressed this 



Reality said:


> He get's up as if nothing happens, although the "Scars" that came with the Edo tensei still remain Suiton: Senshokukō


completely and utterly false as we see before he gets hit and throughout his showings in the war, he does not have any cracks on him, thus the cracks he had when initially summoned are irrelevant.



Reality said:


> your excuse that "Crack's disappearance only apply to Raikage" is highly unlikely and is speculation based on no proof at all.


addressed COUNTLESS times, do not ignore the opposing argument

don't ignore the opposing arguments and don't strawman.  All these points that you have brought up have already been addressed earlier.


And once again, multiquote.


----------



## Reality (Feb 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> irrelevant as explained before
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That point is moot because because Itachi died near blind. What I mean is maybe kabuto can resurrect them at any point in their life like he could have resurrected itachi in the state before his battle. Itachi's eyes were stolen from sasuke, when he was resurrected, he had his pair of eyes.

You just contradicted yourself and refuted your own argument. since when do you believe the "Edo's" retain their original form.

You've never refuted anything, you kept on blabbing that the "Crack's" turn on and off. 

Read what ? what I had posted earlier that refuted your argument ? 

Death gods only take the soul of a person, the death god not take the bodies that will begin soon decay.

Neg worth ? you really don't understand how the mechanics of the reaper seal jutsu works. It is the reason we see the souls detaching rather than the bodies.  Once the soul has been taking, the bodies are dead.



I haven't  been strawmaning my arguments.

You never addressed anything, you kept on saying that the damage the rasengan shuriken inflicts is correlated with the "Crack's". 

Like I said earlier: Kishimoto purposely removes them from time to time. but, they can't auto regenerate like I explained above. you never mentioned anything.

False, your isn't helping you out. The battle scars the third "Raikage" received disappear because of the regenerative ability "Edo tensei" grants, this size. though, the crack's don't disappear. 

Stop denying the facts handing out to you. The "Crack's" come with the "Edo tensei", therefore, cannot be healed.

you are trying to justify your excuse in order to not have to deal with my argument. this is not the same as dealing with my argument, and suggests that you are unable to do so.

I don't know why you dragged this argument. My original comments stated that the "Third" raikage and all other kage's have "Crack's" on their skin before proceeding to battle. You kept denying the facts.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 21, 2013)

Reality said:


> That point is moot because because Itachi died near blind. What I mean is maybe kabuto can resurrect them at any point in their life like he could have resurrected itachi in the state before his battle. Itachi's eyes were stolen from sasuke, when he was resurrected, he had his pair of eyes.
> 
> You just contradicted yourself and refuted your own argument. since when do you believe the "Edo's" retain.
> 
> ...



multiquote, or I will not respond


----------



## Reality (Feb 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> multiquote, or I will not respond



I could careless, it isn't like the words are invisible.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 21, 2013)

Reality said:


> I could careless, it isn't like the words are invisible.



I have taken the liberty to organize my posts into multiquotes throughout our entire debate.

If you don't have the decency to at least put an equal amount of effort it speaks about how much you care about the "truth" of this argument.  Thus I am perfectly justified in not responding to you if you do not multiquote.


----------



## Reality (Feb 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I have taken the liberty to organize my posts into multiquotes throughout our entire debate.
> 
> If you don't have the decency to at least put an equal amount of effort it speaks about how much you care about the "truth" of this argument.  Thus I am perfectly justified in not responding to you if you do not multiquote.



I completely understand your answer. However, note that it won't make a difference. 

I initially stated that the "Edo's" come with crack's, but, you kept telling me otherwise. putting aside your flat out denial of my evidence that Edo's come with crack's, you somehow think the "crack's" and the damage the "Rasen shuriken" inflicted are correlated.

If you can't put any effort on your arguments, then I don't see why I should continue.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 21, 2013)

Reality said:


> I completely understand your answer. However, note that it won't make a difference.
> 
> I initially stated that the "Edo's" come with crack's, but, you kept telling me otherwise. putting aside your flat out denial of my evidence that Edo's come with crack's, you somehow think the "crack's" and the damage the "Rasen shuriken" inflicted are correlated.


I never denied edo's don't have cracks when they make their first summon appearance.  I said that later, these cracks fade away for some and don't for others, which is exactly what we see throughout the war.

If you want to say the reason some edos are not drawn with cracks later is because Kishi is just lazy or doesn't seem to think it's necessary, then I would like to hear your explanation as to why he consistently draws edo sandaime raikage without cracks throughout his appearances, then suddenly after he is hit with FRS, he decides to consistently draw Sandaime with cracks all over his body for the duration of the chapter.





Reality said:


> If you can't put any effort on your arguments, then I don't see why I should continue.


Do you know how easy it is to multiquote?  And yet you still can't do even that.


----------



## Jad (Feb 21, 2013)

I think the entire cracks thing is just that. They are cracks on an Edo because they are made up of earth and dirt and all that jazz. The bindings are just that, probably loose hence the cracks. I mean it's sort of like paper mache, you can invent an image but you will still see those cracks of layered torn, ripped paper. And the cracks loosening when hit vigorously, like a rasengan will distort that binding, and you will see those cracks even more. In other words 'the image' isn't durable that's keeping them look the way that they are. I mean it sort of makes sense because they come out with cracks anyway before being beaten on, which suggests looseness already, and in a lot of scenes their cracks don't stay in the same spot so it's continuing to readjust perhaps.

When you think about it, the Edo's don't even spill blood even though they have a sacrifice inside of them that does. So yeah, it's weird.

It's just my take.


----------



## Shinryu (Feb 21, 2013)

Raikage stomps sine Minato only has rasengan and it IS NOT STRONGER THAN BM NARUTO's Rasenshuriken


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Feb 21, 2013)

Take it easy in here, guys.


----------



## Reality (Feb 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I never denied edo's don't have cracks when they make their first summon appearance.  I said that later, these cracks fade away for some and don't for others, which is exactly what we see throughout the war.
> 
> If you want to say the reason some edos are not drawn with cracks later is because Kishi is just lazy or doesn't seem to think it's necessary, then I would like to hear your explanation as to why he consistently draws edo sandaime raikage without cracks throughout his appearances, then suddenly after he is hit with FRS, he decides to consistently draw Sandaime with cracks all over his body for the duration of the chapter.
> 
> ...




That's not what you said on your earlier posts. Anyways, the Edo crack's don't fade, the only "things" that fade are the damage they have received. Against the alliance, Raikage got hit by  a powerful wing ninjutsu; thereby, receiving "Scars" on his body  the Jyubi's tails the "Damage" auto-healed after a short time.

No, after getting hit by a "Rasenshuriken" the "Third" raikage's "Scars" heal, not the "Crack's" that originally came with the "Edo tensei" jutsu. You see the "Raikages" scar appearing "After" getting it by a "Rasenshuriken". the Jyubi's tails 

It is the same situation with "Temari".

As you can see here the Jyubi's tails the "Crack's" did not heal even after getting hit by naruto's "Rasenshuriken".


He deliberately gets rid of the "Crack's" for an invalid reason, I mean, he is shown to have "Crack's" on his body even after he's been tanking naruto and the alliances attacks. He is shown with his "Crack's" the Jyubi's tails 


Edo bodies were in a state of "decay"; thus, decorated by cracks

We've seen multiple Edo's with and without "Crack's"

The reason being is because he just wants to, it's simple as that.

Now tell me, why is it so hard for you to get ?


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 21, 2013)

Reality said:


> That's not what you said on your earlier posts.


please show me how i am saying something different in my earlier post



Reality said:


> Anyways, the Edo crack's don't fade, the only "things" that fade are the damage they have received. Against the alliance, Raikage got hit by  a powerful wing ninjutsu; thereby, receiving "Scars" on his body  omnidirectional jutsu the "Damage" auto-healed after a short time.


If the edo cracks from when they initially appear don't fade, then why is it that Sandaime and Gaara's dad, Muu and troll are consistently shown without those cracks?  




Reality said:


> No, after getting hit by a "Rasenshuriken" the "Third" raikage's "Scars" heal, not the "Crack's" that originally came with the "Edo tensei" jutsu. You see the "Raikages" scar appearing "After" getting it by a "Rasenshuriken". omnidirectional jutsu
> 
> It is the same situation with "Temari".


okay...



Reality said:


> As you can see here omnidirectional jutsu the "Crack's" did not heal even after getting hit by naruto's "Rasenshuriken".


The cracks are gradually healing, which is a result of Naruto's KCM powered attacks (which kabuto stated takes edos a long time to heal) and the fact that it is cellular damage.



Reality said:


> He deliberately gets rid of the "Crack's" for an invalid reason, I mean, he is shown to have "Crack's" on his body even after he's been tanking naruto and the alliances attacks. He is shown with his "Crack's" omnidirectional jutsu


  those are the same cracks he has received from FRS, of course he is going to continue having those cracks on his body which is why they are slowly fading away and disappear all together by the next chapter.





Reality said:


> We've seen multiple Edo's with and without "Crack's"


yes, and sandaime falls into the category of "without cracks" when not taking damage, thus if he shows cracks immediately after an attack, it means he took damage from that attack.



Reality said:


> The reason being is because he just wants to, it's simple as that.


So Sandaime not having any cracks on his damage-less body before FRS hits him, and suddenly having all of his body full of cracks immediately after getting hit is because "Kishi just so happened to want to" draw him with cracks?"  cracks that slowly fade away throughout the course of the chapter and are not present in the next one?

Going by this, you could practically explain anything that happens in the manga away with the phrase "because kishi just wants to."

But allas, you are entitled to your own opinion.


and brotherin, for the last time, multiquote.  It's so easy to do and it helps me a whole lot.


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## Reality (Feb 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> please show me how i am saying something different in my earlier post
> 
> 
> If the edo cracks from when they initially appear don't fade, then why is it that Sandaime and Gaara's dad, Muu and troll are consistently shown without those cracks?
> ...



You kept telling me that the "Edo's" don't retain their "Original form, several page's later you said something that completely contradicted your previous statement.

negging me correlates with this comment. Contrary to popular belief, this technique is used by sacrificing your soul as the caster and letting the shinigami portal through you and latch onto your target. Once secured the shinigami takes your soul and the soul of your target and seals it into its body, NOT THE Caster's, for eternity or until the technique is cancelled. The "Death reaper" yanks your soul out of your body, therefore letting your body "Paralyzed" and disintegrated because sacrifices are required in order for the soul of the reincarnated to be  used as a vessel.[. omnidirectional jutsu This is the reason why Kabuto couldn't reanimate the 4 kage's, their souls were no longer accessible. Now give me a valid reason as to why you "negged me. Your autocratic ways aren't helping you.

Stop where you're at, The second "Mizukage" does have a "Crack" _BFR_
"All" the previous "Kage's" have been shown with scars before engaging in "Battle" omnidirectional jutsu

Raikage's wounds were not gradually healing, the wounds had already completed regenerating as you can here omnidirectional jutsu several pages later, his "Crack's" are still there omnidirectional jutsu
Edo tensei's regenerative ability doesn't take a long time, While the "Edo's" are immune to traditional attacks such as physical attacks, they are still vulnerable to any technique that could affect, though they are able to reform as soon as they receive any damage. 

Those aren't the same crack's he received from Naruto's "Rasenshuriken"  Before the raikage engaged in battles, he's had those "Crack's".  Here he is with "Crack's" omnidirectional jutsu going by what you said, are claiming that Kishimoto inconsistently shut down the "Crack's" ? That's enough proof to suggest that "Edo's" are resurrected with the "Crack's" due to a prolonged decay.

Your statement is utterly false, "Edo's regenerate from any attacks they are inflicted upon, as seen when the "Third" raikage regenerated from the alliances wind gust.  Your comments don't entertain me anymore. You keep saying that the "Raikage" obtains "Scar" that don't heal. , yet you have yet to realize that to your posts are based on raw speculations. This is not the same as dealing with my argument, and suggests that you are unable to do so.

No, Sandaime had "Crack's" way before he engaged in battle, him showing "Signs" of damage is only natural. His Edo tensei does not shelter him from attacks, it only "Regenerates" the wounds. 

We know that Kage's,Jinchurikii's and other relevant Naruto characters started off with "Crack's even before engaging in battle, thus saying that "Kishimoto" purposely remove them from time to time omnidirectional jutsu



You kept telling me that the "Edo's" don't retain their "Original form, several page's later you said otherwise.

Negging me correlates with this comment. Contrary to popular belief, this technique is used by sacrificing your soul as the caster and letting the shinigami portal through you and latch onto your target. Once secured the shinigami takes your soul and the soul of your target and seals it into its body, NOT THE Caster's, for eternity or until the technique is cancelled. The "Death reaper" yanks your soul out of your body, therefore letting your body "Paralyzed" and disintegrated because sacrifices are required in order for the soul of the reincarnated to be  used as a vessel.[. omnidirectional jutsu This is the reason why Kabuto couldn't reanimate the 4 kage's, their souls were no longer accessible. Now give me a valid reason as to why you "negged me. Your autocratic ways aren't helping you.

Stop where you're at, The second "Mizukage" does have a "Crack" _BFR_
"All" the previous "Kage's" have been shown with scars before engaging in "Battle" omnidirectional jutsu

Raikage's wounds were not gradually healing, the wounds had already completed regenerating as you can here omnidirectional jutsu several pages later, his "Crack's" are still there omnidirectional jutsu
Edo tensei's regenerative ability doesn't take such a long time to heal the inflicted wounds. While the "Edo's" are immune to traditional attacks such as physical attacks, they are still vulnerable to any technique that could affect, though they are able to reform as soon as they receive any damage. 

Those aren't the same crack's he received from Naruto's "Rasenshuriken"  Before the raikage engaged in battles, he's had those "Crack's".  You can clearly see "Crack's" on "raikage's'' body omnidirectional jutsu That's enough proof to suggest that "Edo's" are resurrected with the "Crack's" due to a prolonged decay.

Your statement is utterly false, "Edo's" regenerate from any attacks they are inflicted upon, as seen when the "Third" raikage regenerated from the alliances combined "Wind" jutsu. Your comments don't entertain me anymore because you keep stating that the "Raikage" obtains "Scar" that don't heal. You have yet to realize that your posts are based on raw speculations. 

This is not the same as dealing with my argument, and suggests that you are unable to do so.

No, Sandaime had "Crack's" way before he engaged in battle, him showing "Signs" of damage is only natural. His  "regenerative" Edo tensei body does not shelter him from attacks, it only "Regenerates" the wounds. 

We know that Kage's,Jinchurikii's and other relevant Naruto characters started off with "Crack's even before engaging in battle, thus saying that "Kishimoto" purposely remove them from time to time omnidirectional jutsu


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## joshhookway (Feb 21, 2013)

Minato is faster and kills Sandaime with the kunai attack that he used to almost kill A and sever Bee's tail


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## ueharakk (Feb 21, 2013)

Reality said:


> You kept telling me that the "Edo's" don't retain their "Original form, several page's later you said otherwise.
> 
> negging me correlates with this comment. Contrary to popular belief, this technique is used by sacrificing your soul as the caster and letting the shinigami portal through you and latch onto your target. Once secured the shinigami takes your soul and the soul of your target and seals it into its body, NOT THE Caster's, for eternity or until the technique is cancelled. The "Death reaper" yanks your soul out of your body, therefore letting your body "Paralyzed" and disintegrated because sacrifices are required in order for the soul of the reincarnated to be  used as a vessel.[. omnidirectional jutsu This is the reason why Kabuto couldn't reanimate the 4 kage's, their souls were no longer accessible. Now give me a valid reason as to why you "negged me. Your autocratic ways aren't helping you.
> 
> ...



multiquote, or i will not respond


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## ueharakk (Feb 22, 2013)

Jad said:


> I think the entire cracks thing is just that. They are cracks on an Edo because they are made up of earth and dirt and all that jazz. The bindings are just that, probably loose hence the cracks. I mean it's sort of like paper mache, you can invent an image but you will still see those cracks of layered torn, ripped paper. And the cracks loosening when hit vigorously, like a rasengan will distort that binding, and you will see those cracks even more. In other words 'the image' isn't durable that's keeping them look the way that they are. I mean it sort of makes sense because they come out with cracks anyway before being beaten on, which suggests looseness already, and in a lot of scenes their cracks don't stay in the same spot so it's continuing to readjust perhaps.


So basically (and correct me if i am wrong), you are agreeing that FRS and rasengan did cause them to "crack" but causing an edo tensei to crack does not mean the attack actually did damage to them?

Well do you have any independent evidence of this, like feats of a really weak attack that wouldn't have done any damage to the edo if they were alive causing them to crack up?  We've seen edos block attacks with their arms such as Sai's ink golems, Ei's punch, tsunade's kick without showing any cracks. 

When muu was hit by the rasengan in that panel he obviously was taking damage already despite only cracks being emitted.  The same would apply for sandaime raikage, just on a smaller scale.

And the raikage being cracked is just one of the arguments for FRS doing damage to him. 
In addition to being cracked:
- Sandaime does emit edo tensei papers (which is indisputable evidence of damage)
- is incapacitated long enough for the robes to get around him (while other edos have been cut in half and dismembered yet can still move).
- emits regenerative edo tensei smoke
- we see tiny specks of edo tensei papers flowing back into the cracks here (top right panel).
- we only see sandaime up close a page after he gets hit by FRS meaning he had some time to recover before we see him up close






Jad said:


> When you think about it, the Edo's don't even spill blood even though they have a sacrifice inside of them that does. So yeah, it's weird.
> 
> It's just my take.


i think that since their bodies are different from flesh and blood, kishi does show cracks after an attack as a sign of damage.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 13, 2016)

Minato wins .

FCD+Hakke Fuin or lvl2 to the Nukite are good combos against the Raikage .


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