# Who can avoid kamui



## Duhul10 (Mar 18, 2015)

I have seen that kamui it is very apreciated in the NF, so i want to see who can avoid this jutsu
I have two scenarios
Sc1: distance 10 m
Sc2: distance 50 m
The contestats are:

Minato
Tobirama
Orochimaru
Tsunade
Ems Sasuke 
Sm kabuto 
Sm Jiraiya
Uchiha Itachi
Deva path
Base Naruto the Last
Sakura
6th Gate gai
The contestats do not shit around, they use their maximum speed if needed


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Mar 18, 2015)

Anyone Ei's max speed or higher.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 18, 2015)

*Minato
Tobirama*
Orochimaru
Tsunade
EMS Sasuke 
*SM Kabuto *
SM Jiraiya
Uchiha Itachi
Deva path
Base Naruto 
Sakura
*6th Gate Gai*

*They* can at least partially evade it (maybe lose an arm.)


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> *Minato
> Tobirama*
> Orochimaru
> Tsunade
> ...



This looks right considering the distance and kakashi's war arc feats with kamui.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 18, 2015)

Minato
Tobirama
SM Kabuto
6th Gate Gai
Last Naruto

Not sure about EMS Sasuke. EMS precog doesn't help against dojutsu abilities.



Strategoob said:


> Uchiha Itachi
> 
> *They* can at least partially evade it (maybe lose an arm.)


 At last. You have seen the light.


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## Kai (Mar 18, 2015)

What Strategoob said 

Though I'd argue against EMS Sasuke.


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## Hachibi (Mar 18, 2015)

Depend on who cast Kamui. Because DMS Kakashi behead everyone


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

ST users mostly


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## Duhul10 (Mar 18, 2015)

this is MS Kakashi
And only one kamui, he is not spamming it like in a battle for an example
and do not forget there are 2 scenarios


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## ARGUS (Mar 18, 2015)

Minato tobirama and guy definitely evade it
EMS sasuke reacts as well but his body itself is nowhere near fast enough to evade it


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## Sadgoob (Mar 18, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> At last. You have seen the light.



You are my light.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 18, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Minato



Dodges.



> Tobirama



Dodges.



> Orochimaru



Gets hit.



> Tsunade



Tsunade gets hit if she's standing still when Kamui is used, if she uses large amounts of Byakugou chakra to boost her speed and leaps around the battlefield then she can avoid being targeted..but that isn't dodging per se. 



> Ems Sasuke



Gets hit, unless he can use Susano'o to protect himself?



> Sm kabuto
> Sm Jiraiya



Get hit. Might avoid critical hits but they're still affected.



> Uchiha Itachi
> Deva path
> Base Naruto the Last



They all get hit. Base Naruto the Last might avoid a critical hit? I'm not sure.



> Sakura



Same as Tsunade.



> 6th Gate gai



Gets hit.​​


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## Rocky (Mar 18, 2015)

Not seeing how Gai lacks the speed to "leap around the battlefield to avoid being targeted" when Sakura & Tsunade, who don't approach his speed tier, don't.


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

@godaime till now u had never sounded biased about tsunade abilities 
please do show any feats that would suggest she has greater physical speed than EMS sasuke 

also its odd u say sasuke gets hit. isnt it easier to activate susanoo than it is for tsunade to jump around the place?

do recall largest thing kakashi has wrapped is gedo arm.  sasuke can conjure up a susanoo larger than that instantly also. he wouldnt even need to if kakashi creates a human sized barrier


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## FlamingRain (Mar 18, 2015)

Most of those people on that list would have to take pre-emptive measures to avoid getting sniped, but since you bring up maximum speed I'm not sure if you intended for those to be considered.

The Sannin, Sasuke, Kabuto, Itachi, Deva Path, Sakura, and Gai would each get hit if they just had to avoid it by reacting to its use- only Minato and Tobirama have a fair chance at still being able to teleport away from it once it's been cast.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 18, 2015)

ok  so basically most of them get mortally hit
I think that Minato and Tobirama can avoid, but the others might have other chances excluding pure speed
jiraiya can turn into a shadow
deva maybe with shinra tensei
maybe the Uchihas ( i do not know if Susanoo will protect them , but i assume it would ,even if it would be trapped in kamui )


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## Veracity (Mar 18, 2015)

Is this only speed or can jutsu  be used ?


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## Duhul10 (Mar 18, 2015)

Jutsus allowed of course


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not seeing how Gai lacks the speed to "leap around the battlefield to avoid being targeted" when Sakura & Tsunade, who don't approach his speed tier, don't.



I guess he might be able to, but going by Sakura's statement, the amount of chakra you focus to your feet is scaled with how fast you move. With huge amounts of Byakugou chakra it would therefore make sense that Tsunade/Sakura could _theoretically_ move around at ridiculous speeds, a lot faster than they've ever moved before, and probably faster than what 6th Gated Gai could move at too. Kakashi was able to target and warp one of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows so, I'd guess something of 6th Gated Gai's speed is traceable. I could be wrong though.



Icegaze said:


> @godaime till now u had never sounded biased about tsunade abilities
> please do show any feats that would suggest she has greater physical speed than EMS sasuke
> 
> also its odd u say sasuke gets hit. isnt it easier to activate susanoo than it is for tsunade to jump around the place?



That's probably a lie, I'm sure I've come off as biased plenty of times lol.

She doesn't have greater raw speed than EMS Sasuke or most other people on that list, but if _focusing all of your chakra to your feet and then exploding off the ground gives you a large speed boost_ to the point that Sakura (with a 1 in speed) could blitz Ino (with a 2.5) then the speed increase must be great. Sakura's chakra quantity and control was tiers lower than Byakugou Tsunade's too, so it would make sense that Tsunade doing what Sakura did in Part I against Ino would get a pretty massive speed boost. 

The problem is that the speed boost would be meaningless whenever Tsunade doesn't have the reactions to keep up with how fast she moves. So in any other situation I'm presuming that it would be mostly useless.

And yeah, if Sasuke can activate Susano'o then, as I said, he would probably be okay.​​


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## Bonly (Mar 18, 2015)

Depends on which version of Kakashi this is.

If it's start of part two Kakashi then everyone could dodge it. If it's Pain/Kage summit arc Kakashi then everyone bar possibly Orochi+Tsunade(in scenario 1, scenario two they should be good). 

If it's during the war arc more so towards the start/middle then Minato,Tobi, and 6th gated Gai are the only ones with a decent shot. If it's more so towards the end of the war(shortly before he got his eye ripped out) then it should be the same for scenario one while scenario two everyone has a decent shot to avoid it.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade gets hit if she's standing still when Kamui is used, if she uses large amounts of Byakugou chakra to boost her speed and leaps around the battlefield then she can avoid being targeted..but that isn't dodging per se.​​



But the Sharingan would see her positioning her legs to land before she actually touches the ground again (i.e.- before she can use another Shunshin), so the user could just wait until that moment to catch her.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 18, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> But the Sharingan would see her positioning her legs to land before she actually touches the ground again (i.e.- before she can use another Shunshin), so the user could just wait until that moment to catch her.



Only if she lands within their field of sight. If she goes behind them or out of range, they wouldn't know where she's landed until she uses another chakra leap (I'm not sure if its actually a Shunshin). Then it would be a matter of bouncing around them and trying to stay out of their vision.​​


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## Rocky (Mar 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I guess he might be able to, but going by Sakura's statement, the amount of chakra you focus to your feet is scaled with how fast you move. With huge amounts of Byakugou chakra it would therefore make sense that Tsunade/Sakura could _theoretically_ move around at ridiculous speeds, a lot faster than they've ever moved before, and probably faster than what 6th Gated Gai could move at too.​​



Except they lack the reflexes to keep up with themselves, regardless of whether or not that theory is accurate. They'd crash and burn, or if they leaped into the air, they'd eventually have to come down...at free-fall speeds.


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## Empathy (Mar 18, 2015)

Assuming this is Kakashi and not Obito, Minato and Tobirama are the only two fast enough on the list to outright dodge it. Deva might be able to counter with _Shinra Tensei_. I don't know how fast base Naruto from The Last is. Basically, only people version-two-A fast or above I think can dodge it, so no _Keimon_ Gai (it'd be weird if he could ecade Kakashi's trump) or _Sennin Modo_ users make the cut.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 18, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Only if she lands within their field of sight. If she goes behind them or out of range, they wouldn't know where she's landed until she uses another chakra leap (I'm not sure if its actually a Shunshin). Then it would be a matter of bouncing around them and trying to stay out of their vision.​​



Tsunade is not doing V2 Ei vs Taka Sasuke style multi-shunshin ghost behind you warps on Kakashi.

The only viable counter-measure available is having Katsuyu pre-summoned in from of her, which is the same as Mei or Zabuza having their mist up already to counter.  But none of them can set up those defences on reaction while getting warped.  Even Ei needs to be pumped up to bijuu level V2 to stand a chance, and even then he might get warped, since Kakashi warped a comparably fast KCM Naruto.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Except they lack the reflexes to keep up with themselves, regardless of whether or not that theory is accurate. They'd crash and burn, or if they leaped into the air, they'd eventually have to come down...at free-fall speeds.



Agreed. I'm merely pointing out that theoretically, if they used that speed to move along the ground and safely hop about the battlefield, it should be possible to do.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Tsunade is not doing V2 Ei vs Taka Sasuke style multi-shunshin ghost behind you warps on Kakashi.
> 
> The only viable counter-measure available is having Katsuyu pre-summoned in from of her, which is the same as Mei or Zabuza having their mist up already to counter.  But none of them can set up those defences on reaction while getting warped.  Even Ei needs to be pumped up to bijuu level V2 to stand a chance, and even then he might get warped, since Kakashi warped a comparably fast KCM Naruto.



Assuming the theory is correct, I don't see why not. The difference is that once Tsunade goes to actually attack Kakashi he'll probably just hear her landing behind him and retaliate. She doesn't have the reactions to cope if that happens. It only works if she constantly moves from point A to point B to point C etc etc. without stopping to throw attacks.​​


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## Rocky (Mar 18, 2015)

I don't really understand. 

If they're applying Sakura's method of gathering chakra to the feet and using it to launch themselves at ridiculous speeds, then they may be able to avoid Kamui (if they moved preemptively). 

However, they'll just go flying and crash into the ground because they don't possess the reflexes to _do_ anything at that speed. It'll be like _Naruto_ but worse since they aren't mentally fast enough to time the landing like he did. 

Kakashi can just turn around and Kamui them once they've wiped out. Kakashi wouldn't even have to waste stamina; it isn't like they can transfer all of that chakra from the Yin Seal to their feet and push off in _response_ to Kamui. It's simply too quick for that, so they'd have to begin moving _before_ Kakashi activated the jutsu. At that point, Kakashi could  just...not use Kamui.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

I don't understand how Tsunade can move out of Kakashi's line of sight when prior to the War Arc, Kakashi still managed to perceive Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow with 3 Tomoe and still managed to activate his MS and warp them faster than Susano'o Arrow speed.

 How is Tsunade dodging Kamui?


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## Zef (Mar 18, 2015)

Kamui is overrated. Several people can avoid it depending on speed of target, fighting distance, and the incarnation of Obito/Kakashi being used.

Amaterasu is given a lot of flack, but it's done more damage canonically then Kamui.


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## Rocky (Mar 18, 2015)

@NarutoX28

It's theoretical. Tsunade moves a ridiculously large amount of chakra from her forehead to her feet and blasts off like a cannon ball.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @NarutoX28
> 
> It's theoretical. Tsunade moves a ridiculously large amount of chakra from her forehead to her feet and blasts off like a cannon ball.



 It doesn't matter. Their movements are mostly linear and considering Kakashi can track BM Naruto and his Kamui managed to "blitz' Obito's reactions, I don't understand how Sakura or Tsunade can dodge it, especially Tsunade.


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## Veracity (Mar 18, 2015)

If Justu is usable than Minato, Tobirama, Sasuke, Gai, Itachi and Naruto all avoid it. Possibly even the Sannin if they are able to get their LoS blockers out fast enough at 50m.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 18, 2015)

Only Minato and Tobirama flat out avoid it. EMS Sasuke can't avoid it, but he can block line of sight with Kagutsuchi or Susano'o. 

Not sure about The Last Naruto. He didn't show any notable speed in base, so probably not.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 19, 2015)

With jutsu si think the sannins avoid it to in 50 m
Jiraiya with ma's dust Cloud or frog Call
Oro might do it with oral rebirth ( not So sure at all )
As for tsunade, well i do not really know


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## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I guess he might be able to, but going by Sakura's statement, the amount of chakra you focus to your feet is scaled with how fast you move. With huge amounts of Byakugou chakra it would therefore make sense that Tsunade/Sakura could _theoretically_ move around at ridiculous speeds, a lot faster than they've ever moved before, and probably faster than what 6th Gated Gai could move at too. Kakashi was able to target and warp one of Sasuke's Susano'o arrows so, I'd guess something of 6th Gated Gai's speed is traceable. I could be wrong though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



actually for the most part u are biased but fair. this time it was just ridiculous enough for me to call it out
sasuke got good chakra control as well if she can jump around to avoid kamui so can sasuke and pretty much most high tier who are faster than her


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't really understand.
> 
> If they're applying Sakura's method of gathering chakra to the feet and using it to launch themselves at ridiculous speeds, then they may be able to avoid Kamui (if they moved preemptively).



That's what I'm saying.



> However, they'll just go flying and crash into the ground because they don't possess the reflexes to _do_ anything at that speed. It'll be like _Naruto_ but worse since they aren't mentally fast enough to time the landing like he did.



Yeah, but that would only be if they were trying to jump onto walls, scale cliffs etc. in which case they'd crash into the structure and injure themselves. If they jumped forwards and _slightly above ground level_ then, at the end of their movement when they've slowed down, they should fall downwards at gravity's leisure and have enough control to land safely. 



> Kakashi can just turn around and Kamui them once they've wiped out. Kakashi wouldn't even have to waste stamina; it isn't like they can transfer all of that chakra from the Yin Seal to their feet and push off in _response_ to Kamui. It's simply too quick for that, so they'd have to begin moving _before_ Kakashi activated the jutsu. At that point, Kakashi could  just...not use Kamui.



Yeah, all I was arguing was that if they started chakra blasting themselves around the battlefield and stay out of his line of sight, before Kakashi ever starting using Kamui, he wouldn't be able to target them with it in the first place.



Icegaze said:


> actually for the most part u are biased but fair. this time it was just ridiculous enough for me to call it out
> sasuke got good chakra control as well if she can jump around to avoid kamui so can sasuke and pretty much most high tier who are faster than her



Sasuke doesn't have several bijuus worth of of chakra to expend on chakra propulsions like Byakugou Tsunade/Sakura do, though. His chakra control probably isn't on the same tier as theirs either. I guess he could attempt doing it, and while it might make targeting him difficult, a far more effective strategy is to just camp in Susano'o.​​


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

Minato, as he did in canon. U_U


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato, as he did in canon. U_U



Gai pulled this off in canon - in base [Just look at those] [sweet reflexes Hussain]


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

I dont get your point. Obito did not use his kamui to suck gai in, but to take his tools which he did.


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I dont get your point. Obito did not use his kamui to suck gai in, but to take his tools which he did.



It shows how fast Gai can move in between a Kamui warp of such a small set of tools. His upper body moved to the right (left?) whilst his tools were still being sucked in. And his reflexes were good enough to move to the side for Naruto in Kyuubi Mode to jump over at the *EXACT *(I mean to use that word literally) time. Since you can see the SFX impact illustration of Naruto's hand landing on Gai's shoulder as Gai is leaning to the side. All that would have taken place at such a small amount of time as well, due to how fast Kamui can warp things. So the timing of Gai and his movement is what makes him have great reflexes. 

Which is understandable since he can execute 8 Gated techniques successfully at such speeds without Sharingan. E.g. Landing a direct kick on Madara with Night Gai (a speed that bends space) without for example running into Madara with his full body (shoulder / chest bump) and not executing his kick.


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

I honestly think that you are looking too much into it.  
Also it takes long for obito when he tries to suck something in, and naruto was not using his speed. 

Long story short, he does have amazing reflexes, there is no dnying that, but i dont think that point 
Is convincing honestly....


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## LostSelf (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I honestly think that you are looking too much into it.
> Also it takes long for obito when he tries to suck something in, and naruto was not using his speed.
> 
> Long story short, he does have amazing reflexes, there is no dnying that, but i dont think that point
> Is convincing honestly....



Why not? If he moved before his Nun-chucks were warped, he should be very fast. And why wouldn't Naruto use his full speed against an enemy that has been kicking his ass and dodging him all the fight? .


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## Deer Lord (Mar 19, 2015)

depends.

Start of shippuden kamui needed time to focus
seeing as deidara on a bird gave kakashi trouble with it, any fast kage can do it too.

Starting from kage summit and up kamui is significantly faster and you basically need V2 Ei speed and up to dodge it. much like amaterasu.


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Why not? If he moved before his Nun-chucks were warped, he should be very fast. And why wouldn't Naruto use his full speed against an enemy that has been kicking his ass and dodging him all the fight? .



- he only moved his head for Naruto for God's sake. 
- Because Plot. 
the same reason to why Obito did not kidnap Naruto when he was a child...


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## Jad (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - he only moved his head for Naruto for God's sake.



Don't try to downplay it, it was his upper body. If he only moved his head, Naruto would have kneed Gai.


Hussain said:


> - Because Plot.


The bread and butter for countering all feats from Gai. Plot and art-error are my favorites.


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## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2015)

For gai to avoid kamui he would have to move too fast for kakashi to keep track 
this is clearly not the case. gai eats kamui. its silly to think otherwise, when shouten bloody kisame could react to 6th gate gai


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## Mercurial (Mar 19, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> For gai to avoid kamui he would have to move too fast for kakashi to keep track
> this is clearly not the case. gai eats kamui. its silly to think otherwise, when shouten bloody kisame could react to 6th gate gai



Shoten Kisame had the same reflexes, smartness, experience, strength, speed, jutsu, body, weapons and so on that normal Kisame has. He just had 30% of Kisame's total chakra. And he was totally blitzed, he was completely helpless. He reacted to Gai like at the chunin exam Gaara reacted to Gated Lee.



Deer Lord said:


> depends.
> 
> Start of shippuden kamui needed time to focus
> seeing as deidara on a bird gave kakashi trouble with it, any fast kage can do it too.
> ...



Actually Deidara was completely helpless. Kakashi didn't have enough precision at the time, so the first time he missed from the head to the right arm, then he completely missed. Deidara couldn't do anything on his part, anyway. Kakashi then also warped his giant explosion that was travelling very fast and was big enough to cover a small forest. Also Immortals Arc Kakashi would have used Kamui to defeat Kakuzu,  Pain Arc Kakashi could warp a Shinra Tensei propelled projectile from a couple of metres and a fucking missile. Then yeah he mastered the jutsu and it became the famous (infamous?) Kamui GG 

Long range Kamui is a lot faster than Amaterasu. Fucking Edo fucking Itachi's casting of Amaterasu is slower than Killer Bee fucking throwing a fucking sword (1) that is dodged with ease by fucking base Fuu (2). Hebi Sasuke could dodge Amaterasu for a good time. Kakashi with long range Kamui could warp head sized objects in the same window of time of Obito's intangibility (KCM Naruto's Rasengan) and of a movement of 5 cm from a dashing KCM Naruto, or before being hit by something kicked by SM Juubi jinchuriki Madara while being already touched by it (Minato's Rasengan countered by Madara), human sized masses so fast that people with full knowledge and top notch reflexes boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan vision couldn't perceive the warping happening in front of their eyes (namely Obito ofc) and that before a Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cms (BM Naruto's clone dashing against Obito), giant sized masses in the same time of the instant summon of the Summoning Jutsu, with KCM Minato not understanding what happened (the Gedo Mazo's arm), think about how big is the Gedo Mazo and how high are Minato's reactions. Obviously not even going for DMS Rikudou Kakashi that can use Kamui so fast that it outspeeds Kaguya's S/T that blitzed Rinnegan Rikudou Sasuke.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 19, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I honestly think that you are looking too much into it.
> Also it takes long for obito when he tries to suck something in, and naruto was not using his speed.
> 
> Long story short, he does have amazing reflexes, there is no dnying that, but i dont think that point
> Is convincing honestly....



 I doubt that.

 Considering Juubidara's Gedodama was the only thing Madara had that was capable of outspeeding Obito's Kamui Warp speed, I don't understand how it would take long for Obito to absorb things.

 If I remember correctly, Obito almost managed to absorb KCM Naruto.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 19, 2015)

Assuming Kamui is being casted directly at 0 seconds of start battle. 



> Sc1: distance 10 m


Only Minato & Tobirama avoid this with their hand speed/FTG. 



> Sc2: distance 50 m


Minato & Tobirama avoid this, 6th Gate Gai (shunshin) avoids a head shot but is still capable of receiving a mortal wound around any part of the body. SM Kabuto (sensing precog) & EMS Sasuke (perceptual speed) notice it manifesting, but are too slow to avoid it. If EMS Sasuke was in his PS he'd move while it's being casted as PS's propelled leg speed moves it very quickly, but I doubt he'd avoid death.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Shoten Kisame had the same reflexes, smartness, experience, strength, speed, jutsu, body, weapons and so on that normal Kisame has. He just had 30% of Kisame's total chakra. And he was totally blitzed, he was completely helpless. He reacted to Gai like at the chunin exam Gaara reacted to Gated Lee.



wrong!!! kisame tried to swing samehada. but gai moved faster than he did. thats much better than gaara reaction to gated lee. fact is gai isnt too fast for kakashi to keep track of 



> Actually Deidara was completely helpless. Kakashi didn't have enough precision at the time, so the first time he missed from the head to the right arm, then he completely missed. Deidara couldn't do anything on his part, anyway. Kakashi then also warped his giant explosion that was travelling very fast and was big enough to cover a small forest. Also Immortals Arc Kakashi would have used Kamui to defeat Kakuzu,  Pain Arc Kakashi could warp a Shinra Tensei propelled projectile from a couple of metres and a fucking missile. Then yeah he mastered the jutsu and it became the famous (infamous?) Kamui GG
> 
> Long range Kamui is a lot faster than Amaterasu. Fucking Edo fucking Itachi's casting of Amaterasu is slower than Killer Bee fucking throwing a fucking sword (1) that is dodged with ease by fucking base Fuu (2). Hebi Sasuke could dodge Amaterasu for a good time. Kakashi with long range Kamui could warp head sized objects in the same window of time of Obito's intangibility (KCM Naruto's Rasengan) and of a movement of 5 cm from a dashing KCM Naruto, or before being hit by something kicked by SM Juubi jinchuriki Madara while being already touched by it (Minato's Rasengan countered by Madara), human sized masses so fast that people with full knowledge and top notch reflexes boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan vision couldn't perceive the warping happening in front of their eyes (namely Obito ofc) and that before a Kamui shooted stake that was hitting BM Naruto could move for more than a couple of cms (BM Naruto's clone dashing against Obito), giant sized masses in the same time of the instant summon of the Summoning Jutsu, with KCM Minato not understanding what happened (the Gedo Mazo's arm), think about how big is the Gedo Mazo and how high are Minato's reactions. Obviously not even going for DMS Rikudou Kakashi that can use Kamui so fast that it outspeeds Kaguya's S/T that blitzed Rinnegan Rikudou Sasuke.



kamui appears on target so does amaterasu  lets not go over it again. amaterasu appeared on god naruto, madara, obito etc. 

what kamui has is a much quicker effect. i.e the barrier getting rid of the person alot quicker than amaterasu can burn


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 20, 2015)

Kamui negated multiple Susano'o arrows that travel much faster than Amaterasu does.

 I don't see how Kamui can be debated as a slower technique.


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## ARGUS (Mar 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *Kamui negated multiple Susano'o arrows that travel much faster than Amaterasu does.*
> 
> I don't see how Kamui can be debated as a slower technique.



prove it?  
because that is wrong,
amaterasu is faster than susanooo arrrows


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 20, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> prove it?
> because that is wrong,
> amaterasu is faster than susanooo arrrows



 Honestly, we've had this debate before, but it's gone nowhere.

 But tell me, why does Sasuke piss himself at SM Kabuto dodging Susano'o Arrow yet doesn't when V2 Ei dodges his Amaterasu? It's clear Susano'o Arrow is portrayed to be a faster technique.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 20, 2015)

Well it can't be proved NarutoX28, he used both against Danzo and Danzo was able to react to Susano arrow with his Mokuton. Against Amaterasu, he literally had no pre-cog thinking process and was immediately lit up. 

Now, he was in Izanagi against Amaterasu so he probably didn't give a shit, but still, SM Kabuto & Danzo both reacted to his Susano Arrow- and only V2 Ei/Jubito reacted to Amaterasu. V2 Ei is faster than both of them and was hailed as the fastest ninja in the verse, and he barely avoided it by a factor of a meter.

I have no doubt they're close in speed, because unlike Magatamas they're shot from a device with potential energy, meaning the arrows are faster than other ranged Susano weaponry (save Kamui shurikens), but there's nothing proving it is faster than Amaterasu.

I wish there was more feats to prove or disprove it, but the only feats that arguably improve the Arrow's position over Amaterasu is with EMS Sasuke CS Perfect Susano Arrows that forced Jubito to guard with his black chakras , and even then, is Amaterasu slower than BSM Bijuudama (which probably hit Jubito at the same time as the arrow)? MS Sasuke with V3 Susano was the one who fired arrows at Kakashi, not EMS Sasuke with CS Perfect Susano, so that feat is irrelevant anyway.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 21, 2015)

Actually, Danzo managed to block Amaterasu, but obviously it overpowers him due to the fact that his flesh and durability doesn't compare to Ei's.

 Way to downgrade Susano'o Arrow's feats. Danzo with precognition couldn't even create a hand seal against Susano'o Arrow while Hebi Sasuke could perceive and outrun Amaterasu for a few seconds. There's no contest, Susano'o Arrow's faster. Being able to use Mokuton doesn't hurt here considering it's implied to be faster than creating a seal. 

 Honestly, Juubito being the only one to react to Amaterasu in no way implies others can't dodge it. KCM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Tobirama, Minato, SM Kabuto all have feats that suggest they can react to and avoid Amaterasu. All you proved is that Amaterasu is fast which I have no doubt it is, espeically at a close distance from what was shown, but implying only V2 Ei and Juubito can dodge Amaterasu is downright false.

 I can also make a baseless claim that Juubito is slower than V2 Ei considering Juubito only managed to block Amaterasu while V2 Ei dodged it at a closer range, but let's not go there. 

 You still haven't disproved why EMS Sasuke considers dodging Susano'o Arrow to be more impressive than dodging Amaterasu. 

 [2]

 [2]

 The 1st scan suggests dodging Susano'o Arrow was a far more impressive feat than dodging Amaterasu.


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## Icegaze (Mar 21, 2015)

@narutoX28
susanoo arrow is a projectile it travels from A to B 
amaterasu appears on target 

its clear amaterasu is faster. Also to help u only one of the 2 is described as an instant technique. 
guess what its not susanoo arrow

sasuke was surprised simply because both kakashi and danzo clearly couldnt dodge it despite their level

he however knew the raikage was fast, also considering that was newb MS sasuke its clear his reactions were still not good enough to track Ei
or Ei would have been lit up


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28
> susanoo arrow is a projectile it travels from A to B
> amaterasu appears on target



 Susano'o Arrow is a linear projectile, though I never denied that. However, both Susano'o Arrows and Amaterasu travel to the target. This was shown against Hebi Sasuke and also against V2 Raikage where V2 Raikage wouldn't have been able to dodge it if it just appeared on the target as he has no sensing capabilities.

 [2]

 Scan if you want actual evidence. You can clearly see by the lines that Amaterasu is traveling towards Hebi Sasuke and it's also clear by the fact that the flames were slowly approaching Hebi Sasuke.

 Kamui however, does appear on the target, so by that logic, Kamui is faster than Amaterasu.



> its clear amaterasu is faster. Also to help u only one of the 2 is described as an instant technique.
> guess what its not susanoo arrow



 Once chakra is built up to the eye, Amaterasu appears instantaneously, but that's independent of it's traveling speed. Kamui is the exact same, however, has shown it appears on the target very quickly (perhaps nearly instantaneously) and also has very fast feats to suggest that Kakashi can use it very quickly.



> sasuke was surprised simply because both kakashi and danzo clearly couldnt dodge it despite their level
> 
> he however knew the raikage was fast, also considering that was newb MS sasuke its clear his reactions were still not good enough to track Ei
> or Ei would have been lit up



 That doesn't make sense. 

 Sasuke never believed either of them to be quick to begin with considering Danzo could never dodge Amaterasu and Sasuke wasn't afraid of fighting Kakashi in a fatigued state. 

 [2]

He also never expected V2 Raikage to be as fast as he was due to his exclamation mark, but he's not sweating and maintains his composure after V2 Raikage dodged it. Sasuke however, pisses himself and starts sweating once Kabuto managed to dodge his Susano'o Arrow.

 And MS Sasuke could track V2 Ei or at least follow his movements or else he wouldn't have reacted to V2 Ei's attack. You also see than Sasuke himself was quite calm as there were no exclamation marks once V2 Raikage appeared behind him as shown here:

 [2]

 Furthermore, Sasuke himself expected both Raikage and Kabuto to be high-level opponents, strong enough to have killing intent, so circumstances were exactly the same, however, his reaction to Susano'o Arrow clearly indicates that dodging it was a far more impressive feat than dodging Amaterasu when circumstances are the same.


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## Empathy (Mar 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> But tell me, why does Sasuke piss himself at SM Kabuto dodging Susano'o Arrow yet doesn't when V2 Ei dodges his Amaterasu? It's clear Susano'o Arrow is portrayed to be a faster technique.



A's obviously faster than Kabuto.


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## sabre320 (Mar 21, 2015)

kakashi managed to kamui a rushing bm naruto so fast that even obito with his mankegyo precog couldnt see it..
he warped gedo mazos arm mid summon..

the only people i see taht avoid kamui surefire are ftg users and maybe last naruto


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## Empathy (Mar 21, 2015)

Obito noticed and acknowledged it. The stake's timing just made it an inadvertent feint; Obito even curses aloud that Kakashi was marginally faster than the stake. Naruto being the fastest character in the series probably helped as well.


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## sabre320 (Mar 21, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Obito noticed and acknowledged it. The stake's timing just made it an inadvertent feint; Obito even curses aloud that Kakashi was marginally faster than the stake. Naruto being the fastest character in the series probably helped as well.



obito noticed and aknowledged it after he was duped and he saw naruto in kamuiland..naruto being the fastest chracter made it that much harder to warp him how does that help..


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 21, 2015)

Obito didn't realize it at that moment until BM Naruto's clone managed to get into Boxland in which Obito realized that was the only way that BM Naruto's clone managed to get into Boxland. 

 That feat alone shows Kakashi's Kamui "blitzed" Obito's own reactions.

 Edit: I would rep you Sabre because we actually agree on something here, but reps still on recharge.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

BM naruto wasnt moving at full speed though. why assume he would make it harder for kakashi to kamui him??
makes no sense

but yh u need ST to avoid kamui


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## Empathy (Mar 22, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> obito noticed and aknowledged it after he was duped and he saw naruto in kamuiland..



That's not true.





Obito acknowledged Kakashi's _Kamui_ attempt and clearly noticed it. The timing of the stake just made it appear that the _Kage Bunshin_ was popped. It was an inadvertent feint, and without that bit of the luck in the stake's timing, Obito would've clearly been able to discern what happened. 



> naruto being the fastest chracter made it that much harder to warp him how does that help..



Kakashi didn't warp Naruto himself. He opened a portal in front of him, which Naruto could facilitate his warping by moving into the opening. Albeit, Naruto wasn't using his top speed at the time.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

gotta agree with empathy
i dont get why anyone would think naruto is moving at full speed when he is coordinating his attacks

its like saying when Ei and bee use lariat Ei goes at full speed. why would he? bee wont be able to keep up


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## SSMG (Mar 23, 2015)

Minato Sasuke and Tobirama can avoid it with st jutsu. Minato has already done this in the manga.

Madaras truth seeker orbs also were faster than obitos kamui so anyone faster than those. We know sixth gate guy and sixth gate Lee are faster than them so is naruto and as well as madara so they all can dodge it as well.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

yh SSMG is right, 6th gate lee is faster than truth seeker ball 
interception feats on every panel in the manga is full of BS. we have no idea how close lee was 
thats terrible

the only way lee is dodging kamui is if he can move quicker than kakshi can react. which he batantly cant

lee gets caught neg diifculty


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## Jad (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yh SSMG is right, 6th gate lee is faster than truth seeker ball
> interception feats on every panel in the manga is full of BS. we have no idea how close lee was
> thats terrible
> 
> ...



Lee was definitely outside the blast radius of Hirudora. Which by looking at the scan, is massive.


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## Mercurial (Mar 23, 2015)

Empathy said:


> That's not true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good fanfiction to try to downplay Kakashi's feat.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

@jad and raikri i swear i love you guys entirely comical in your own rights. 

@jad and suigetsu was well out of sight when he intercepted Ei. does that make him faster than v1 EI??

please say yes.....

@rakiri the feat cant be downplayed. kakashi kamui is faster than obito's. point final 

it however doesnt remotely mean naruto was moving at full speed, which wouldnt help kakashi at all.


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## Jad (Mar 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @jad and raikri i swear i love you guys entirely comical in your own rights.
> 
> @jad and suigetsu was well out of sight when he intercepted Ei. does that make him faster than v1 EI??
> 
> please say yes.....



I can't tell if you don't give me a scan.

Also, I'm starting to get tired of people throwing 'inconsistent' or 'art error' or 'plot' in my face every time I bring something up. I don't think I have ever used that as an excuse when I argue.

Don't patronize me Icegaze....loving me for what you believe are my faults isn't cool man.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 23, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Good fanfiction to try to downplay Kakashi's feat.





 Your comment for some reason made me laugh way too hard.

 But yes, I do agree.

 Take into consideration that Kakashi used a Kamui on Naruto's Rasengan, then quickly deactivated his Kamui only to build up chakra in his other eye in order to create a portal the instant before the stake appeared to have attacked the BM Naruto clone. Despite what you believe, that is still impressive IMO.


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## SSMG (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yh SSMG is right, 6th gate lee is faster than truth seeker ball
> interception feats on every panel in the manga is full of BS. we have no idea how close lee was
> thats terrible
> 
> ...



Yeah you're right. There's not much reference to go by to say how far away the orb was to guy when Lee grabbed Guy. Still the fact that he could get to guy before the orb says he's still in the speed range of escaping kamui... Since Kakashi couldn't kamui the orbs at all while Lee obviously can react and move at a similar speed to them since he would have had to of known something is coming at Guy in order to save him in the first place.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

@SSMG  why would an interception feat make him in that speed range
@Jad i am patronizing u because u need to be. its adorable. i said nothing of inconsistency 
just if u are going to go about clinging to interception feats then 

haku is far faster than kakashi(i await raikiri19 reply on this), suigetsu is faster than V1 Ei, rock lee is much faster than the time it takes for obito to wrap himself, kakashi got the same speed as 6th gate gai, yet base gai as fast as KCM naruto 

sounds fishy doesnt it. a person speed should be determine by how fast they move in battle. while in the fight. 
cuz then their reactions are in play. lee already said he can never go full speed cuz he wont see the counter attack 

which is why i have always said in a fight Ei would always move faster than 7th gate gai. because he can, he got better reactions due to his cloak. while gai would still have to rely on his base reactions, since these arent increased by gates


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @SSMG  why would an interception feat make him in that speed range
> @Jad i am patronizing u because u need to be. its adorable. i said nothing of inconsistency
> just if u are going to go about clinging to interception feats then
> 
> ...



Still confused because I have no scans. But at least we know approximately how far Lee was from saving Gai, because had to be outside of Hirudora's explosion radius.

Gai has better reactions than Ei even with a shroud, just from being a pure Taijutsu master. That's why he was able to land his Night Gai technique on Juubidara at the right time, rather than running into him full body (such as shoulder bumping or chest bumping him) and missing his mark to extend his leg and kick. And he was running so fast he bent the space around him. But tell me, that is an inconsistency as well, right? [Scan] It's also stated that Gai has lighting fast reflexes in the Databook, so it isn't something Kishimoto is being inconsistent about.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Jad said:


> Still confused because I have no scans. But at least we know approximately how far Lee was from saving Gai, because had to be outside of Hirudora's explosion radius.
> 
> Gai has better reactions than Ei even with a shroud, just from being a pure Taijutsu master. That's why he was able to land his Night Gai technique on Juubidara at the right time, rather than running into him full body (such as shoulder bumping or chest bumping him) and missing his mark to extend his leg and kick. And he was running so fast he bent the space around him. But tell me, that is an inconsistency as well, right? [Scan] It's also stated that Gai has lighting fast reflexes in the Databook, so it isn't something Kishimoto is being inconsistent about.



bra if u confused about those things then good for u. not fetching scans which are all over the place. considering how recent all of them are. suigetsu intercepting Ei is well dicussed on this forum. during the kage summit arc, haku was during the war. kakashi and gai was saving KCM naruto and well u know all about the 4 of them facing obito. so why on earth u asking for scans 

if that were true. if only!!! 
he didnt right night gai at the right time. he moved at ridiculous speed in a linear fashion bent the space around madara staff and kicked him. thats not gai reacting. thats gai lunching a super fast kick which madara couldnt do shit against. also notice i never mentioned 8th gate gai 

and EI is stated to have reactions on par with minato and as the fastest. 
lets not use Db here but reaction wise bar 8th gate nothing implies gai can react better than EI. 

considering specifically what the cloak does to Ei reaction. and lee havin the exact same linear style of fighting as gai saying he cant move at full speed cuz of the counter.

 ur scan has nothing to do with gai reaction. again kakashi was blitzing the fodder rock ninja about 18 times. yet kakashi admitted he couldnt see the counter due to tunnel vision. thats reaction right there. gai moved too fast for juudara to ever hope to counter. again thats 8th gate gai which i never mentioned. 

no need to have reactions when u are moving so fast being concerned with the opponents counter attack is irrevelant. 

movement from point A to B isnt the same as reactions.


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> bra if u confused about those things then good for u. not fetching scans which are all over the place. considering how recent all of them are. suigetsu intercepting Ei is well dicussed on this forum. during the kage summit arc, haku was during the war. kakashi and gai was saving KCM naruto and well u know all about the 4 of them facing obito. so why on earth u asking for scans
> 
> if that were true. if only!!!
> he didnt right night gai at the right time. he moved at ridiculous speed in a linear fashion bent the space around madara staff and kicked him. thats not gai reacting. thats gai lunching a super fast kick which madara couldnt do shit against. also notice i never mentioned 8th gate gai
> ...



If that scan of Gai being able to react to his own speed, space bending speed, to land a kick on Juubidara is not a reaction/reflexes feat. Then you are gonna have to do better than saying "_All Gai did was run in a straight line_". As I stated in my post, Gai had to lift off from the ground and direct a forward thrust kick to Madara at the speeds he was running at. Key word 'running', he didn't come at Madara, as per the scan, already in his kicking pose. Please break down this exact post, and tell me how you don't find that impressive.

Again, he had to have insane reflexes to perform his own feat of kicking Madara at the right time, without running him over and missing his mark. Ei needs his reflexes amped to use Raiton Shunshin in conjunction with attacking. Similar deal here with Gai, but instead he uses his inherit reflexes. Something Minato also has, and so does Gai. And JUST like you said, Gates do not increase reflexes, that is something Gai has with him in Base. As per what the Databook says, quote "_lightning fast reflexes_". Both feats and statements work against your '_not buying it_' attitude/rebuttal.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

Jad said:


> If that scan of Gai being able to react to his own speed, space bending speed, to land a kick on Juubidara is not a reaction/reflexes feat. Then you are gonna have to do better than saying "_All Gai did was run in a straight line_". As I stated in my post, Gai had to lift off from the ground and direct a forward thrust kick to Madara at the speeds he was running at. Key word 'running', he didn't come at Madara, as per the scan, already in his kicking pose. Please break down this exact post, and tell me how you don't find that impressive.
> 
> Again, he had to have insane reflexes to perform his own feat of kicking Madara at the right time, without running him over and missing his mark. Ei needs his reflexes amped to use Raiton Shunshin in conjunction with attacking. Similar deal here with Gai, but instead he uses his inherit reflexes. Something Minato also has, and so does Gai. And JUST like you said, Gates do not increase reflexes, that is something Gai has with him in Base. As per what the Databook says, quote "_lightning fast reflexes_". Both feats and statements work against your '_not buying it_' attitude/rebuttal.



its not a feat because he doesnt need to react. he moved straight at juudara and kicked him. what on earth is he reacting to??? his own kick. why?? he thought about doing the kick. therefore he knows its coming. why would he need to react to it. unless u fail to understand the meaning of the word react 

you are again mentioning 8th gate gai, which for the last time i never compared to anyone. since really par so6p people he utterly fucking stomps

people dont react to their own bloody moves. . 
what ur saying is because minato can think about ushing hirahsin and use it therefore his reactions are quicker than instant. which would mean nothign should ever hit someone who has instant reactions. 

 no one reacts to their attacks. they think about the jutsu and use it. they dont need to react to their own bloody move. its not being used against them. 

gai ran and kicked at full speed. big whoop. how does that even imply in base he can avoid something as fast as night gai or even react to it. if he could why didnt he avoid the jinchukiri's tail swipe which is so much much slower?


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## Jad (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> its not a feat because he doesnt need to react. he moved straight at juudara and kicked him. what on earth is he reacting to??? his own kick. why?? he thought about doing the kick. therefore he knows its coming. why would he need to react to it. unless u fail to understand the meaning of the word react
> 
> you are again mentioning 8th gate gai, which for the last time i never compared to anyone. since really par so6p people he utterly fucking stomps
> 
> ...



You know, I think I might wait for someone else to explain it to you. Because I honestly can't understand how you don't get it.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

you took the words right out of my mouth Jad
was just going to say that. lets just agree to disagree

i give it to u. lee is too fast for kamui to ever reach him. 


lets not even mention gai who is too manly to be hit by such a weak jutsu


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## SSMG (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @SSMG  why would an interception feat make him in that speed range
> @Jad i am patronizing u because u need to be. its adorable. i said nothing of inconsistency
> just if u are going to go about clinging to interception feats then
> 
> ...



Because speed =distance/time. 

Since Lee was able to get to guy in less time (due to having to react to the incoming attack on Guy in the first place) and cover greater distance( since he was outside of hirudoras area of effect while madara and the orb were in said area) that means he's faster than the truth seeking orb.. The same truth seeking orb kakashi couldn't not use kamui on.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

being outside hirudora area of effect doesnt mean he wasnt coming from behind to save gai. gaara was also out of range you know 

ok SSMG he is faster than truth seeking orb if u want to say that thats fine. tired of arguing it. 

i just need u to then agree suigetsu is faster than Ei. since u know he was at a considerably further distance than EI 

and i would also need u to agree to haku being so much faster than kakashi, both in part 1 and 2

if u can agree to those then i understand ur line of logic if not its fairly biased and shitty at best. 

interception feat is far from inconistent mind u , it just has no basis in an actual match up. or else killer bee growing his tentacle is quicker than instant teleportation to which i say


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## SSMG (Mar 24, 2015)

Lee came in through the smoke from the front not from behind of guy.

No the sugiestu feat doesn't show him being faster than eis movement speed.. Just faster than eis arm coming down.

Haku is a speed demon so he may just well be faster than kakashi. If you could show me scans of him intercepting kakashi from a further distance.

And bees tentacle has never outpaced space time teleportation. If you're referring to the flashback fight I'd point out that bees tentacle only made it there after minato teleported in and hit ei with his knee. It is faster than minatos follow up strike but that's irrelevant since minato did land a strike beforehand. I would say bees tentacle is faster than ei though based off that feat but that's neither here nor there.

I notice you do this quite often with intercepting feats.. Is bring up other off topic feat that are not about the discussiom at hand. But were talking about kamui and what is or isn't faster than its usage. I'd reccomentyou to stay on topic and if you wanna talk about other feats make topics for them.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

omg thats worse SSMG. so ur saying suigetsu can cover a huge distance before Ei can swing his bloody arm down. how dont u think thats stupid??

haku faster than kakashi  raikri19 if u got time ill let u go ape shit on him for saying such. 

so bee can grow his tail a certain distance before minato can swing his arm down  

so bee tentacle is faster than Ei. yet Ei claims he is the fastest and bee doesnt disagree. 

i recommend you to actually use whats left of ur brain and notice that intercepting doesnt make u fast since kishi never bothers to show where the person was coming from or when they started moving 

u cant actually think kakashi and gai are able to cover whats over several mountain ranges before obito can actually touch KCm naruto at point blank range. 

if they were that much faster obito wont even be able to phase. kakashi will kick him to death. common!!! 

u and these looking at one panel to decide everything is just dumb!

take a look at this panel. notifce no gai or kakashi
next panel the save naruto. which means they covered a larger distance than the entire length of hachibi body before obito could move his hand at naruto. are u actually serious!!!

after

why didnt kakashi just blitz obito once the fight started?


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## Arles Celes (Mar 24, 2015)

Minato and Tobirama certainly thanks to Hirashin.

Possibly Naruto in KCM and above.

God tiers like Juudara or Rinnegan Sasuke.

Maybe Ei. Maybe.

Perhaps SM Kabuto too...


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 24, 2015)

I personally don't know if 5/6th Gate Lee is faster than a Gedodama. After all, Gedodama's were the only way that Juubidara can counter Rikudou Obito's Kamui Warp and not even 6th Gate Gai or BM Naruto could strike a less reflexive Obito and that's at a rather close range for BM Naruto.

 It seems ridiculous for me to believe that an inferior being such as Lee can out speed a Gedodama.

 One thing's for certain though, 7th Gate Gai is definitely within Juubidara's speed tier.


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## SSMG (Mar 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> omg thats worse SSMG. so ur saying suigetsu can cover a huge distance before Ei can swing his bloody arm down. how dont u think thats stupid??
> 
> haku faster than kakashi  raikri19 if u got time ill let u go ape shit on him for saying such.
> 
> ...




That is what is balantly shown in the manga. Ei has his arm up... No sugiestu in the panel. He brings down his arm which is what 4 feet distance total. Sugiestu blocks the arm by moving the entire distance of the previous frame. Which was at least double that4 feet length proly closer to 10 feet he had to my be. Simply math dicates he was faster than that arm swing.


Hakus a speed freak so it is what it is.

I see you're moving the goal post eh. First it was bees tentacle is faster than s/t now you're changing your tune. But yes bees tentacle covered more distance in less time so it's faster than that second strike from minato. But again that's moot because it was the second strike from minato.

Naruto didn't disagree either I guess ei is faster than him too.....


I guess basic math still escapes you eh.  We know the distance in basically everyone of the feats you brought up and same with the ones I brought up and we know the intercepter gets there first that's means he is faster.

I never claimed they can cover mountain ranges in the time it takes obito to grab naruto I don't know where you got that from. 

The panel you showed I haven't used in any of my feats. There's a few faults in youbringing up that one. For one they could have been in the large view panel from above... You can't see any humans from that far out. And they also could have been in the dust in that same panel moving towards obito.

But none of what you just said refutes the fact Lee got to guy in less time from a greater distance than the truth seeking orb.. The same truth seeking orb kakashi couldn't kamui.


@narutox28 guy has already outpaced a truth seeking orb directly on screen in sixth gate there's. No question he's faster. And Lee did as well.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2015)

so then suigetsu can straight up blitz V1 Ei then. 
despite suigetsu being unable to even remotely threaten base bee with his speed 
or even blitz past samurai
 

its entirely stupid to think bee growing a tentacle can be quicker than minato appearing and swinging down his sword. but hey i guess Ei didnt know either that bee was faster than him despite them being a tag team 

ok so lee is faster than kamui..good for lee. its odd how the entire alliance didnt knwo lee had those speeds. i mean why not just blitz past everyone and end the war on his lonesome



kakashi is able to intercept deva path mid strike when he was trying to kill iruka despite being no where close. 
yet someone kakashi cant manage to blitz him the panel after. interception feats are what they are. 
its easier to see whats happening when u arent the target of the attack vs when u are coming face to face with  it. 

even in real life we have had people push others off the road while a car is moving full speed to hit them. does that make said person faster than a moving car?


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 31, 2015)

SSMG said:


> That is what is balantly shown in the manga. Ei has his arm up... No sugiestu in the panel. He brings down his arm which is what 4 feet distance total. Sugiestu blocks the arm by moving the entire distance of the previous frame. Which was at least double that4 feet length proly closer to 10 feet he had to my be. Simply math dicates he was faster than that arm swing.



 Terrible example.

 I hope you do realize that V1 Raikage moved a shorter distance than Darui did to blitz Sasuke and both struck simultaneously. I hope you're not trying to imply Darui is suddenly faster than V1 Ei even though Bee admitted only the Raikage could dodge V1 Bee (after Sasuke dodged him). It's clear that V1 Raikage did not go all out. We've seen him move at slower speeds in that state such as when he fought against KCM Naruto.





> I see you're moving the goal post eh. First it was bees tentacle is faster than s/t now you're changing your tune. But yes bees tentacle covered more distance in less time so it's faster than that second strike from minato. But again that's moot because it was the second strike from minato.



 That's possible. Minato isn't that quick to begin with. Even Young Obito can strike before Minato can strike.



> Naruto didn't disagree either I guess ei is faster than him too.....





> But none of what you just said refutes the fact Lee got to guy in less time from a greater distance than the truth seeking orb.. The same truth seeking orb kakashi couldn't kamui.



 What implies he couldn't when Minato himself said he could handle it. Base Minato cannot out speed Kakashi's Kamui.




> @narutox28 guy has already outpaced a truth seeking orb directly on screen in sixth gate there's. No question he's faster. And Lee did as well.



 Can I see the scan por favor?


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

> Minato isn't that quick to begin with



That's the stupidest thing I read for this day. Congrats. U_U



> Base Minato cannot out speed Kakashi's Kamui.



He was able to strike first.


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2015)

guy didnt just intercept the TSB, 
he pushed kakashi and evaded itt all togetheer, from a distance where he wasnt even seen 
its not far fetched to assume that hes faster than TSB


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## Jad (Mar 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> guy didnt just intercept the TSB,
> he pushed kakashi and evaded itt all togetheer, from a distance where he wasnt even seen
> its not far fetched to assume that hes faster than TSB



He also dodged the instant explosion which was pretty big, whilst saving Kakashi. Obviously Gai being in gates (the aura) meant Kishimoto was making point that it needed someone with great speed to save Kakashi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2015)

Itachi's handseal speed is faster than Kakashi's eyes can track. He can create a clone in front of him before Kakashi can warp him with Kamui, negating the attack. 

Minato and Tobirama can jump with Hirashin, granted they need pre-set tags.

Not sure about the rest. I also don't think distance matters much, given Kamui doesn't travel but rather appears on the target.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's handseal speed is faster than Kakashi's eyes can track. He can create a clone in front of him before Kakashi can warp him with Kamui, negating the attack.
> 
> Minato and Tobirama can jump with Hirashin, granted they need pre-set tags.
> 
> Not sure about the rest. I also don't think distance matters much, given Kamui doesn't travel but rather appears on the target.



Than part 1 Kakashi can track. And he still reacted and countered everything Itachi dished out, were it quick jutsu or clones. War Arc Kakashi > Shippuden Kakashi >> part 1 Kakashi. And Kakashi can warp an area as big as the arm of the Gedo Mazo, which is tens and tens of times bigger than a human person, in the meantime an instant summoning jutsu can teleport the objective away. If Kakashi attemps to warp Itachi or Itachi's head, Itachi is done for, sadly.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

itachi can put up susanoo though .
thats as quick as kamui wrap. he puts up susanoo and defends 
however he cant avoid it 
clearly


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Than part 1 Kakashi can track. And he still reacted and countered everything Itachi dished out, were it quick jutsu or clones. War Arc Kakashi > Shippuden Kakashi >> part 1 Kakashi. And Kakashi can warp an area as big as the arm of the Gedo Mazo, which is tens and tens of times bigger than a human person, in the meantime an instant summoning jutsu can teleport the objective away. If Kakashi attemps to warp Itachi or Itachi's head, Itachi is done for, sadly.



I haven't seen any evidence in the manga that Kakashi's reaction speed or sharingan prediction got any better since the end of part 1(except for the very last arc where he became Rikodou). Databook also supports my argument.

Bigass Kamui = more charge time, so Itachi may as well just move out the way before Kakashi begins warping. 
I also don't think Kakashi'll opt to go for a hugeass Kamui on a human sized target. He'll completely wiff it when a clone blocks his vision and then get blindsided and killed.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> itachi can put up susanoo though .
> thats as quick as kamui wrap. he puts up susanoo and defends
> however he cant avoid it
> clearly



Susanoo is irrelevant to Kamui, Kamui can warp everything with the same ease, be it a rock, a paper, part 1 Sakura or the 3rd Raikage's body, a tree or a Gudodama. Itachi puts up Susanoo, Kakashi warps the Susanoo (as Itachi's Susanoo is definitely not bigger than the Gedo Mazo's arm; Kakashi warped it and then used Kamui five more times, lol, or tried to warp the head of the gian monster and then used Kamui four more times and the Sharingan and other jutsu, so he clearly has enough chakra, and skill with the jutsu, to do that and efficiently) or simply warps Itachi in the Susanoo making the space-time barrier appearing on him.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I haven't seen any evidence in the manga that Kakashi's reaction speed or sharingan prediction got any better since the end of part 1(except for the very last arc where he became Rikodou). Databook also supports my argument.
> 
> Bigass Kamui = more charge time, so Itachi may as well just move out the way before Kakashi begins warping.
> I also don't think Kakashi'll opt to go for a hugeass Kamui on a human sized target. He'll completely wiff it when a clone blocks his vision and then get blindsided and killed.



Oh yeah. You mean the same databook whose stats are completely inconsistent with the manga, to the point that in the latest they were erased, the same databook that just to give an example gives part 1 Kakashi (exausted and put to bed for a week after some minutes of Sharingan, plus Mizu Bunshin, Suiton Daibafuku and Suiton Suiryodan with water source and a Sharingan genjutsu; can use at best four Raikiri and then has no more chakra) and Shippuden Kakashi (Kakuzu and Hidan fight: uses five Raikiri, a sourceless Suiton Suijinheki, Kuchiyose no jutsu, a lot of time with Sharingan activated, implies he could have used Mangekyo Sharingan with Kamui and there's an off panel part of the fight too). All right then. If you think that part 1 Kakashi (initially out of shape too) is the same Kakashi that in Shippuden could outspeed Obito (that was physically as fast as no Shunshin KCM Naruto and by extension as V1 Raikage), intercept Kaguya's bone projectile with his dash, combo dash more than once with Gated Gai (and for Gai there was no logical reason to enhance his speed with Gates, when he went to attack Obito while Kakashi saved Naruto, and then not use that enhanced speed, it makes no sense, to be fast let's say 100, then power up to be able to reach 125 and still use the same 100, I think it's a clear example), react and move on par with Minato (if not reacting better when both faced Madara's sudden counterattacks) and counterblitz Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 jinchuriki landing Raikiri on them and then cutting their chakra arms with Raiden (we know how chakra arms are hella fast), pressure with his speed Asura Path (the same that blitzed SM Jiraiya), well by my guest, I don't think he could and as he trained and progressed in everything, showing always better feats than the latest showing before, I'd think his reactions and speed grew with the time, but that's me hey, who am I to talk about logical powerscaling supported by feats and implications.

Sadly the charge time for the bigass Kamui was to big that in the manga Kakashi activated Mangekyo and used Kamui right off the bat and still managed to warp an arm of the giant monster, before Madara could summon it to him. With KCM Minato that wasn't able to register what happened (1). With Madara, the same who talked shit about EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu, personally praising him for the feat.

For human sized targets, lol. Kakashi could feint he was warping a Rasengan and then up his warping speed to the max and change his objective to Naruto's clone's full body, warping it away in a millisecond before it could be hit from a stake shooted at high speed with Kamui propelling effect from point blank, with such timing it seemed the stake destroyed the clone, whereas actually he warped it away; that with MS + Rinnegan Obito, with full knowledge not only on Kamui but on Kakashi's intent of warping Naruto's attack too, unable to register what happened (2)(3)(4); that was when Kakashi was already tired and wasn't standing still but moving too (5) and was far from the objective tracking the fast paced battle (6). Yeah, Itachi is definitely going to react and execute a jutsu in the meantime of Kamui. Oh wait... also Itachi never managed to feint Kakashi, not even in part 1. Kakashi countered Itachi's clone feint with his own in part 1, and completely fooled him in Shippuden (clone had every skill on par with Itachi, just less chakra hence it was weaker being unable to use the Mangekyo as it didn't have enough chakra), so it's actually ridicolous to think he will feint an even stronger version of Kakashi.

Also, just to say, beginning of Shippuden Kakashi easily reacts to Itachi's handseal speed preempting it with the Sharingan, you can easily see the chronological order of actions, Kakashi reacting, then Itachi finishing the handseals and then launching his Katon: Gokakyu (); if Kakashi reacted only to the incoming jutsu, as he did in part 1 with Itachi's Suigadan, the scene would have been draw with a different panel order, this (). This is from chapter 260, clearly (9).


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

@raikiri 
If Kakashi uses a human sized kamui to wrap itschi and itachi puts up susanoo 
All it would do is punch a hole in susanoo 

Great Wall of text


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @raikiri
> If Kakashi uses a human sized kamui to wrap itschi and itachi puts up susanoo
> All it would do is punch a hole in susanoo
> 
> Great Wall of text



Itachi wouldn't even react to Kakashi's warping execution, by feats, so moot point anyway. And anyway, not, because if Kakashi is warping Itachi's face, the fact that Itachi surrounds himself in a chakra mecha, doesn't change that the warping will warp him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

suuure by fanfic raikiri feats no doubt
i mean when the likes of hashirama cant react to raikiri19 version of kamui sure thing

like i have said the only person capable of doign anything to kakashi is kishi eraser


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

lol, that was funny honestly. 
though Kakashi's Kamui is indeed fast as he was able to Kamui the GM's arm before it got summoned.



> i mean when the likes of hashirama cant react to raikiri19 version of kamui sure thing



It's not if the like of Hashirama has any speed feats (that are not made up) to suggest he can either. He was never known for his speed.
Let alone a speed to react to something like Kamui. 



> If Kakashi uses a human sized kamui to wrap itschi and itachi puts up susanoo



That's irrelevant honestly because the eye itselt or the warping in it is still the same size, and yet he can warp the Hachibi (with Naruto's chakra)
or for example when Obito warp himself or other things in or out of his eye.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

susanoo around him woudl mean he doesnt get wrapped. this is a BD match against the 2. so think what u want.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> suuure by fanfic raikiri feats no doubt
> i mean when the likes of hashirama cant react to raikiri19 version of kamui sure thing
> 
> like i have said the only person capable of doign anything to kakashi is kishi eraser



Itachi is tiers below Hashirama in everything bar genjutsu and smartness, so I don't see what's your point. This isn't even an argument, may you like it or not Itachi can't react to War Arc Kakashi's long range Kamui execution, by manga feats. No need for hysterical reactions. And blame Kishimoto for Kamui hax, I don't know what to say.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> susanoo around him woudl mean he doesnt get wrapped. this is a BD match against the 2. so think what u want.



Susanoo doesn't change anything. Kamui warps Itachi or Itachi + Susanoo or Itachi in Susanoo with the same exact ease. A chakra mecha around Itachi doesn't stop the space-time barrier or something like that, sadly.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> susanoo around him woudl mean he doesnt get wrapped. this is a BD match against the 2. so think what u want.



and why can't both be warped exactly? 
isn't itachi inside the Susanoo?

For example, you think if Kakashi tries to warp an egg, what inside the egg won't be warped with it? 

the Eggshell is the Susanoo, and itachi is the chick.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and why can't both be warped exactly?
> isn't itachi inside the Susanoo?
> 
> For example, you think if Kakashi tries to warp an egg, what inside the egg won't be warped with it?
> ...



Following that logic, Kakashi warped only the skin of the Gedo Mazo, but his muscles, bones or whatever is made of his internal body shouldn' have been warped  He warped only the external chakra of the Susanoo arrows, and so on


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and why can't both be warped exactly?
> isn't itachi inside the Susanoo?
> 
> For example, you think if Kakashi tries to warp an egg, what inside the egg won't be warped with it?
> ...



 That logic doesn't work as Kamui will be big enough to warp the entire egg.

 Kamui in this case isn't strong enough to absorb a massive construct such as V4 Susano'o. We also have to consider that Kakashi couldn't warp any part of Juubidara as he could only warp part of his Gedodama in order to do so.

 @Raikiri

 Same situation here. Kakashi could maintain his Kamui long enough to warp the entire Susano'o Arrow and in order for that to happen, Kakashi's Kamui also had to be big enough in order to do so. Here, Kakashi cannot warp V4 Susano'o on his own without Kurama's Chakra, so since he can't do that, he has to warp a part of Itachi's Susano'o in order to reach Itachi with Kamui.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 31, 2015)

Sasuke showed in the Kaguya fight that MS jutsu's can be used through objects. As Amaterasu and Kamui have the same mechanics (despite Amaterasu being short range and Kamui being all ranges), susanoo does nothing to stop Kamui. Perfect susanoo won't do anything, the user gets warped.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That logic doesn't work as Kamui will be big enough to warp the entire egg.
> 
> Kamui in this case isn't strong enough to absorb a massive construct such as V4 Susano'o. We also have to consider that Kakashi couldn't warp any part of Juubidara as he could only warp part of his Gedodama in order to do so.



and how did you figure that it won't be enough here?

- his MS was weak at that point, and he stated that clearly.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and how did you figure that it won't be enough here?
> 
> - his MS was weak at that point, and he stated that clearly.



 Sorry, but I'm slightly confused by what you're referring to. If you're referring to when Kakashi was discussing about his ability of warping the Hachibi, then Kakashi admitted Kurama Chakra allowed Kakashi to warp the Hachibi which V4 Susano'o easily approaches that size. Kakashi while weakened, credited it towards Kurama's Chakra tripling his ninjutsu capabilities.

 So no, his Kamui isn't big enough to warp Itachi's whole V4 Susano'o.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2015)

you said his Kamui won't be enough to warp itachi's Susanoo, and I am asking how did you get that? 
Can you prove than itachi's Susanoo is as big as a bijuu? 


Also, he does not really need to warp the entire thing, the direction where itachi is standing should be enough.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Susanoo is irrelevant to Kamui, Kamui can warp everything with the same ease, be it a rock, a paper, part 1 Sakura or the 3rd Raikage's body, a tree or a Gudodama. Itachi puts up Susanoo, Kakashi warps the Susanoo (as Itachi's Susanoo is definitely not bigger than the Gedo Mazo's arm; Kakashi warped it and then used Kamui five more times, lol, or tried to warp the head of the gian monster and then used Kamui four more times and the Sharingan and other jutsu, so he clearly has enough chakra, and skill with the jutsu, to do that and efficiently) or simply warps Itachi in the Susanoo making the space-time barrier appearing on him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't read that wall of text tbh, but if my short reply erupts such a big one I'd say I have a stronger argument. 

I'm only going to adress 3 points/problems I saw in your post.

1 - Kakashi didn't warp GM before it was summoned, but rather GM was summoned before Kakashi was able to warp him. Big difference, as GM first emerged from Zetsu, and then it was summoned. Kakashi attempted to Kamui during that window and GM is a huge target that can't move so I don't think it is a good example.

2 - Obito actually had no idea about Kakashi's plan. He clearly didn't expect him to warp Naruto as a whole and his attention was divided between multiple opponents, Kakashi wasn't even directly a part of the combat. Also the giant stake blocking his line of sight probably had a part in why he missed Naruto's dissapearance.

3 - There is no evidence that Kakashi read Itachi's seals, he saw him perform seals and a giant fireball come out of his mouth. Sakura, Naruto and Chito reacted to Gokakyu too, I guess they all have some kind of a precog. But most important of it all, it was Shouten Itachi(a weaker copy) who had no intention to harm them.

Short answer : Itachi's hands are faster than Kakashi's eyes, so it is highly likely that he performs a simple handseal before Kakashi's eyes finish executing a jutsu.


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## Mercurial (Apr 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That logic doesn't work as Kamui will be big enough to warp the entire egg.
> 
> Kamui in this case isn't strong enough to absorb a massive construct such as V4 Susano'o. We also have to consider that Kakashi couldn't warp any part of Juubidara as he could only warp part of his Gedodama in order to do so.
> 
> ...


Kakashi didn't try to warp Juudara but only to open the road through his defense for Gai to hit, so I don't see what the point.

Kakashi can simply warp Itachi in Susanoo making the space-time barrier appear on Itachi's body, head or what not. He doesn't need to warp the full construct, why should he, it would be a useless loss of chakra.

Anyway. Kakashi with his Kamui powered x3 could warp and rewarp the entire Hachibi. So he warped the 200% of the Hachibi body with a x3 powered Kamui; hence, with a normal Kamui, he should warp like the 65% of the Hachibi body, at best, and that is much much bigger than V4 Susanoo (Itachi's one at least). He also warped the entire arm of the Gedo Mazo (in an instant and activating the Mangekyo right off the bat, not focusing his chakra) and had still chakra to use Kamui other four times, after having used it once before, when he teleported back, and when he was warping the head of the Gedo Mazo, he was already using the Sharingan and many taxing jutsu from hours, and later could still use Kamui for more times in combo with other taxing jutsu. So I don't really see the problem, either Kakashi warps Itachi or his Susanoo with the same ease.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't read that wall of text tbh, but if my short reply erupts such a big one I'd say I have a stronger argument.
> 
> I'm only going to adress 3 points/problems I saw in your post.
> 
> ...



And that window of time, you know, it's an instant. Kakashi managed to warp all that mass in an instant.

It's not like Kakashi had to write everything he was willing to do to Obito. Obito said clearly and textually that he only had to watch carefully the moment when Kakashi would have tried to use Kamui to warp Naruto's attacks, he still couldn't. 

They were like fifty metres far, when Kakashi was ten, at best, so moot point. Kakashi reacted before the Gokakyu was executed, sadly, pictures are clear. Also Shoten Itachi has exactly the same speed, smartness, skills and jutsus that Itachi has, it is weaker simply because cannot use Itachi's best jutsus having only a portion of the original's chakra. And the fact that Itachi was so kind to not wanting to harm anyone is a great fable. Itachi tried to put a knife in Kakashi's back, he put him in a fucking coma, that for what Itachi could know would have longed for all his life. He couldn't care less about harming them, except for Naruto, probably.

They aren't, sadly part 1 was like 10 years ago.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

@raikiri  
so why didnt kakashi just wrap juudara and his truth seeker balls when juudara used it to cover himself. 

can you prove kakashi didnt try to wrap juudara. why wont he have tried. wont that have ended the match? perhaps he coudlnt with the size of kamui he used which really is my point. to wrap itachi while in susanoo the kamui would need to be the size of susanoo. not itachi head 

go on explain that.

prove 65% of hachibi body is much bigger than V4 susanoo. go on ill wait. when V4 wasnt much smaller than yamata which is bigger than even manda a boss snake. 

V4 isnt much smaller. never implied to be in the slighest. go look at the size of it against nagato.


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## Jad (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @raikiri
> so why didnt kakashi just wrap juudara and his truth seeker balls when juudara used it to cover himself.
> 
> can you prove kakashi didnt try to wrap juudara. why wont he have tried. wont that have ended the match? perhaps he coudlnt with the size of kamui he used which really is my point. to wrap itachi while in susanoo the kamui would need to be the size of susanoo. not itachi head
> ...



Kakashi eyes were deteriorated and was losing eye sight. Pretty sure he was Chakra was almost spent at that point, since he did nothing ninjutsu related that I remember after that Kamui. It makes sense he only has enough to allow Gai to fit through the hole.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Jad said:


> Kakashi eyes were deteriorated and was losing eye sight. Pretty sure he was Chakra was almost spent at that point, since he did nothing ninjutsu related that I remember after that Kamui. It makes sense he only has enough to allow Gai to fit through the hole.



nice excuse 
kakashi eye was bleeding since he wrapped BM naruto to kamui land 

that still didnt stop him chapters later from taking gedo mazo arm 

the reason he couldnt wrap juudara away was because the size of the barrier he used wasnt big enough 
or for plot reasons
or juudara would have sensed it and victimized kakashi

take ur pic

the options are there


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## Jad (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> nice excuse
> kakashi eye was bleeding since he wrapped BM naruto to kamui land
> 
> that still didnt stop him chapters later from taking gedo mazo arm
> ...



Don't give me a mock multiple choice, I stated my reasoning and there was nothing uncanny about it. I didn't make things up on the spot, nor do I need to give multiple options for a scenario that was illustrated for you [].


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Jad said:


> Don't give me a mock multiple choice, I stated my reasoning and there was nothing uncanny about it. I didn't make things up on the spot, nor do I need to give multiple options for a scenario that was illustrated for you [].



your options were presented above. its 1 or the other 
at most multiple reasons. either he couldnt because of juudara. or couldnt because of his limitations. in any case a bigger barrier would have been more effective than the one he used 



kakashi limitation then. he has to get pretty close which he did. he said nothing about not havin enough chakra.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> And that window of time, you know, it's an instant. Kakashi managed to warp all that mass in an instant.


Kamui isn't instant, so that window can't be instant either. We know for a fact that The statue appeared, Minato and Kakashi talked about it and Kakashi  tried to warp and it got summoned back. before he could  finish warping.



> It's not like Kakashi had to write everything he was willing to do to Obito. Obito said clearly and textually that he only had to watch carefully the moment when Kakashi would have tried to use Kamui to warp Naruto's attacks, he still couldn't.



Obito saw Kakashi warp Naruto's attack, he just didn't think Kakashi'd warp a clone, first and foremost he didn't know it was a clone, and second off he thought his giant stake dispersed it because both things happened simultaneously.
Obito was tricked in the heat of the combat. Its not like he couldn't react to Kamui because of its sheer speed. 



> They were like fifty metres far, when Kakashi was ten, at best,


Thats an exaggeration. The difference wasn'tthat great. 



> so moot point. Kakashi reacted before the Gokakyu was executed, sadly, pictures are clear.


There is actually no evidence for that.



> Also Shoten Itachi has exactly the same speed, smartness, skills and jutsus that Itachi has, it is weaker simply because cannot use Itachi's best jutsus having only a portion of the original's chakra.


This is debunked by 2 instances. One of them is Kisame saying that their strength and the amount of jutsu they can use being limited, as seperate things. And Kakashi's remark when he physically engaged Itachi  "gokakyu... but something has been..." Kakashi clearly felt something was off when he was fighting the shouten clone. 



> And the fact that Itachi was so kind to not wanting to harm anyone is a great fable. Itachi tried to put a knife in Kakashi's back, he put him in a fucking coma, that for what Itachi could know would have longed for all his life. He couldn't care less about harming them, except for Naruto, probably.


He probably knew it was a clone when he stabbed it behind the back, given he wasn't surprised. 
Also he put him in a coma because of two reasons. 1 - That was the quickest way of putting Kakashi down. 2 - That was the only way of putting Kakashi down without physically harming him.
Looking @ Itachi's tools, using Susano'o or Amaterasu to put down Kakashi was out of the question and his regular skillset would take time(I am talking about beating him up physically). 



> They aren't, sadly part 1 was like 10 years ago.



Itachi isn't part 1 or a shitty shouten clone either, I don't get what your point is.

But the matter of the fact is, there is no evidence that Kakashi became significantly faster during that time. He became stronger, mostly because of his inconsistent stamina increase and his perfection of his MS jutsu. Not because he got faster.


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