# Spoiler 631. Minato Vs Itachi



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

Restrictions: none
Location: Madara vs Kages
Distance: 30 meters

Someone has to do it.


----------



## narut0ninjafan (May 22, 2013)

We haven't seen what his BM can do yet, and he couldn't use it while alive (dat Minato... Learning BM in the few minutes before he died ). 

That being said, Minato still wins without BM, I thought that was common knowledge?


----------



## Final Jutsu (May 22, 2013)

BM Minato > Minato > Itachi.


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

BM Minato stomps so hard it's not even funny.


----------



## Ersa (May 22, 2013)

KCM Minato >> Edo Itachi = Minato > Itachi.

Enough said.

Minato is firmly superior in my eyes now, I mean the argument can be made he can't bypass Susanoo since he's yet to show any city-level attacks like Kirin but then again it's Kishi and he probably has Senpou Chou Odoma Chou Bijuu Rasengan now. And I'm tempted to say he could blitz. If Base Naruto + KCM = Fastest character then why the hell is Minato + KCM? 

And seriously TorJan you believe base Jiraiya is far superior to Itachi, why make this thread?


----------



## Alex Payne (May 22, 2013)

Edo Minato>Edo Itachi. Wouldn't be an easy fight though. But living ones are still up to debate.


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

Rasant said:


> And seriously TorJan you believe base Jiraiya is far superior to Itachi, why make this thread?



Because 


*Spoiler*: __ 




Someone has to do it.




and Jman has statement to put him above Itachi specifically. Unlike Minato who has general
statements, Also, from part one and I knew that Minato FAR MUCH stronger than Itachi. But, well
not all people agreed. And I made this to know Itachi's fans opinion. @.@


----------



## Ersa (May 22, 2013)

Well no, Edo Itachi would stomp "Jman".

But yeah Minato is comfortably superior now, I'm not to argue like a butthurt fanboy.


----------



## richard lewis (May 22, 2013)

Minato shits on him


----------



## Luftwaffles (May 22, 2013)

Minato curbstomps.


----------



## lathia (May 22, 2013)

Poor Itachi. He's not getting any Juubi feats.


----------



## tanman (May 22, 2013)

Obvious spite thread.
Please don't take credit for Minato's postmortem powerups as if it makes all wanking justified.


----------



## MinuGaHana (May 22, 2013)

My respect and admiration for Itachi is immense, however we've seen that Minato could defeat Obito's 'kamui' with ease, had the fight between Minato and Obito been without obstruction or distraction I think its safe to say Minato could have subdued Obito.
If it's argued that Itachi is on par with the other great Uchiha such as Madara and Obito (personally believe Itachi could kick Obito's ass), then I think Minato could beat Itachi, albeit it would be a very long and close match. 
I suppose, based on my argument, if Minato can beat Madara and Obito in the coming manga chapters then by default we can assume Minato can kick any Uchiha butt.


----------



## Joakim3 (May 22, 2013)

...... Finally :amazed

the Itachi vs. Minato debate can finally be put to rest


----------



## Kai (May 22, 2013)

Minato has always been stronger than Itachi.

Edo Minato has a pretty decisive advantage over Itachi with his chakra mode.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 22, 2013)

This isn't even a debate anymore. Minato and Itachi were pretty even without KCM. With it it's a stomp in favor of Minato.


----------



## maupp (May 22, 2013)

RM minato>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>edo itachi....by the way OP it's RM mode, it's not BM...


----------



## Bonly (May 22, 2013)

Minato and Itachi were pretty close together before and with it now known that Minato has a KCM, Minato should take the lead here.


----------



## Thunder (May 22, 2013)

Too soon for this. Let's wait until Kishi revives Itachi and gives him the Jūbi's eye, or something. It's bound to happen given the way things are going right now.


----------



## ImSerious (May 22, 2013)

you had to do it huh 


i feel bad for itachifans now


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

Poor Itachi. 
the battle did not start yet and we have a long way till the end of the battle!
So, what will he do after some more chapters when Minato shows more
of his power.


----------



## Raiken (May 22, 2013)

In my opinion:

Edo KCM1 Minato > Edo MS Itachi => Edo Minato > Alive Healthy MS Itachi => Alive Minato => Alive 'illness' MS Itachi


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> In my opinion:
> 
> Edo KCM1 Minato > Edo MS Itachi > Edo Minato > Alive MS Itachi = Alive Minato.



Well, that's for now if you will. But as I said we have a long way before
the end of this battle. Minato did not even started yet. 
with more feats and jutsus perhaps you'll change your opinion. 
Who knows!


----------



## Coldhands (May 22, 2013)

Because of the latest chapter Minato rapes.


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

So, there are still two think that Itachi can win. 
I can't wait to the next chapter! From what Hashi said it seems they will
attack the 10tails together, and since obviously Minato will not attack with Rasengan 
that's mean there will be some new jutsus for him! Perhaps those who still think Itachi
has a chance will change their mind. 

I'm really pleased with the poll though. :amazed


----------



## Pirao (May 22, 2013)

Spite thread


----------



## Vice (May 22, 2013)

Moderators should close this obviously unbalanced and unfair match-up. Spite thread is obvious.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

Minato, oh thy Minato

Thou art too quick for everyone

So please show them your mercy 

They are all beneath thou...

So convert them to your side, where happiness shall prevail

Minato is the undefeated king

The king who now has Bijuu mode


----------



## Octavian (May 22, 2013)

spite thread


----------



## TraderJoe (May 22, 2013)

LOL, why do we even need a poll for this.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Minato won before. With KCM, he absolutely decimates.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2013)

Assuming this is Edo Minato... Since he didn't have Kyuubi's power back when he was alive.

Well, sad for you guys, Kyuubi's consciousness isn't inside Minato, so there is no partner method for him.
Genjutsu is still a viable and a deciding factor here.
Without knowledge, Tsukiyomi still GG's this. 

So again I'd say 50/50. Can go eitherway. Leaning towards Itachi though.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Assuming this is Edo Minato... Since he didn't have Kyuubi's power back when he was alive.
> 
> Well, sad for you guys, Kyuubi's consciousness isn't inside Minato, so there is no partner method for him.
> Genjutsu is still a viable and a deciding factor here.
> ...



He didn't have it when he was alive, because he used the Dead demon seal to take it away. It's 100% death. If he had lived, he would of mastered it straight away. It never had a conscious, meaning Minato had nothing to fight. He could of just taken it. If Minato were to come back to life, he would have it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> He didn't have it when he was alive, because he used the Dead demon seal to take it away. It's 100% death. If he had lived, he would of mastered it straight away. It never had a conscious, meaning Minato had nothing to fight. He could of just taken it. If Minato were to come back to life, he would have it.



I don't know what your babling about but...

Kyuubi mode isn't something Minato normally has access to. 

Edo tensei restored everyone to their "prime." Minato is the only one who went past his. Because he now has access to a power he never could or would have.


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Assuming this is Edo Minato... Since he didn't have Kyuubi's power back when he was alive.



Actually he did have it when he was alive, how do you think he get it from the first place? 
Do you think he sealed Kurama while he was in his Grave?


----------



## Rain (May 22, 2013)

i like how nobody actually gave a concrete argument on how minato doesnt get insta-genjutsu raped as usual.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Assuming this is Edo Minato... Since he didn't have Kyuubi's power back when he was alive.
> 
> Well, sad for you guys, Kyuubi's consciousness isn't inside Minato, so there is no partner method for him.
> Genjutsu is still a viable and a deciding factor here.
> ...




Are you serious.

I assume Genjutsu GG is viable against Hashirama, who hasn't shown a Genjutsu counter, correct? Itachi 50/50's him as well, correct?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 22, 2013)

Despite being introduced with a new power, many readers seem to disregard the fact that Minato never had access to this ability - in his lifetime, that is - which is why it's a stretch to put him on a higher level. Frankly, he shouldn't be compared to Hashirama or Madara, because they possess three distinctive things: feats, matchless hype and portrayal. 

Is Edo Minato superior to BM Naruto? I wouldn't put it past him.
Itachi or Nagato? Too early to make assumptions...


That aside, I believe Edo Itachi is still stronger than his rival. Why is that?

- Without prior notification, Amaterasu/Susano'o/Tsukuyomi are extremely difficult to overcome. If knowledge is given on Itachi's prowess, however, a smart individual will try to avoid eye contact; the opponent begins with an immediate disadvantage, either way.

- It's unlikely that Minato can escape illusions through the partner method, considering there isn't a Tailed Beast within his subconscious.

- Unlike Naruto, Minato lacks the ability to create Bunshin.


My sentiment:

Alive or reincarnated, Minato loses against any version of Itachi (without proper knowledge). Even though Minato will be harder to catch, the lethality of MS techniques hasn't changed; his attacks aren't capable of breaching Susano'o, either, so this notion brings me to another point. 

Their sole chance of prevailing is through Shiki Fūjin or Totsuka no Tsurugi.

One will always force a stalemate, while its counterpart leads a path to victory.

I suppose Minato can transfer Susano'o to another area - resulting in BFR - but a tag must be available beforehand to make it feasible. Ultimately, this is limited to what the OP dictates.

Edo Nagato >/= Edo Itachi >/= Edo Minato 
Nagato > Itachi > Minato

Until Minato obtains a technique that defines 'offensive' power, Itachi will always be higher than him (on my list).


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 22, 2013)

Here we go again with the NLF on genjutsu.  Itachi fans just never quit.

They just have their jimmies rustled because they know Minato now stomps.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Itachi is so irrelevant right now it isn't even funny.


----------



## Rain (May 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi is so irrelevant right now it isn't even funny.



not less relevant than your contribution to this thread.


----------



## Vice (May 22, 2013)

Rain said:


> i like how nobody actually gave a concrete argument on how minato doesnt get insta-genjutsu raped as usual.



Probably because Minato is much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, faster than Itachi and any arguments to the contrary is just stupid fan wank.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 22, 2013)

Vice said:


> Probably because Minato is much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, faster than Itachi and any arguments to the contrary is just stupid fan wank.



It's pointless arguing. You notice it's only Itachi fans arguing this. Everybody else realizes who's superior, but Itachi fans would argue for him even if you pit him against Hashirama. 

It's best to just read, laugh, and call it a day.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Rain said:


> not less relevant than your contribution to this thread.







*Spoiler*: __ 



Seriously, Itachi isn't even in Minato's tier anymore. Itachi was on par with Minato before he revealed this ridiculousness, but now It's like KCM Naruto vs. Base Sasuke.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

On another forum ,people are saying Minato's BM/KCM is irrelevant because he couldn't handle the "heavy chakra and it made his body go numb". What do you all think of this?


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> On another forum ,people are saying Minato's BM/KCM is irrelevant because he couldn't handle the "heavy chakra and it made his body go numb". What do you all think of this?



Whoever said that needs to have their brain examined seeing as this isn't even an alive Minato, it's a dead one, so their point is irrelevant.


----------



## Dr. White (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> On another forum ,people are saying Minato's BM/KCM is irrelevant because he couldn't handle the "heavy chakra and it made his body go numb". What do you all think of this?



Hadn't taken that in to consideration. Minato was numbed and mentioned the chakra was too much for him, also Minato needed the seal to be rebroken so that both his soul and the chakra could be released, so I don't see how people believe this is his power. 

It be similar to Kabuto roiding edo Itachi up with Senju DNA, it be cool for now, but we know living Itachi never had such amenities.

On Topic, KCM Minato beats Itachi 9/10 times mid - Diff. Itachi has a chance at winning if he can get off an MS move but with supercharged minato the chances are extremely slim off him accomplishing such.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

He seems to be handling it just fine. 

This is very much like Edo Itachi & Koto Amatsukami. I mean, KCM really should be restricted in every Battledome thread, otherwise he blitzes the verse.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

So, lets say if Minato survived the sealing, he wouldn't be able to access the KCM?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> So, lets say if Minato survived the sealing, he wouldn't be able to access the KCM?



You're implying Minato would've survived with the terrible wound?


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

MN said:
			
		

> So, lets say if Minato survived the sealing, he wouldn't be able to access the KCM?



I don't know. Kishi most likely wasn't thinking about it when he gave Minato control of such power. Look at the alliance completely disregarding element affinity with their Doton walls. He doesn't even care about consistency anymore.

For Battledome purposes, KCM allows Minato to solo anything at standard distance, so it's most likely going to get restricted anyway.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> You're implying Minato would've survived with the terrible wound?



No, you fucking idiot, I'm not. If you could read between the lines, and stopped grasping at straws, you'll see I said: *if* he survived it. Ever heard of making scenario's? 



Rocky said:


> I don't know. Kishi most likely wasn't thinking about it when he gave Minato control of such power. Look at the alliance completely disregarding element affinity with their Doton walls. He doesn't even care about consistency anymore.
> 
> For Battledome purposes, KCM allows Minato to solo anything at standard distance, so it's most likely going to get restricted anyway.



Who's gonna restrict him? Fuck that


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> No, you fucking idiot, I'm not. If you could read between the lines, and stopped grasping at straws, you'll see I said: *if* he survived it. Ever heard of making scenario's?



You forgot to mention that he had a mortal wound inflicted by Kurama.


----------



## Minato Namikaze. (May 22, 2013)

Damn its a stomp


----------



## Doge (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> On another forum ,people are saying Minato's BM/KCM is irrelevant because he couldn't handle the "heavy chakra and it made his body go numb". What do you all think of this?



Then he wouldn't be able to use RM at all, and there would be no point of him having any mastery over it.  


As for the genjutsu debate, what genjutsu could Itachi use against him to avoid the blitz?  If he doesn't look into Itachi's eyes, how can Itachi even cast a genjutsu on him that would work?  

If he can cast a genjutsu on someone w/o their eyes, why didn't he genjutsu Kabuto?  He just closed off his eyes, he could've used a base sharingan genjutsu or finger genjutsu, yet he didn't.  Either it's not IC for him to use a genjutsu rape other than Tsukuyomi, or he couldn't do it.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> You forgot to mention that he had a mortal wound inflicted by Kurama.



So you knew exactly what I meant, but you're simply grasping at straws in efforts to down play Minato. What, does his current superiority upset you? Cry some more


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

KCM Minato speedblitzes Itachi with the body flicker...there is no debate. Itachi couldn't possibly react to something that fast unless Minato starts ridiculously far away.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are you serious.
> 
> I assume Genjutsu GG is viable against Hashirama, who hasn't shown a Genjutsu counter, correct? Itachi 50/50's him as well, correct?



This logic is retarded. I don't need to explain why. 

But let me ask you one thing. What is the difference between Edo KCM Minato and Living Minato in regards to genjutsu defense ?


----------



## Pirao (May 22, 2013)

Rain said:


> not less relevant than your contribution to this thread.



How about you argue how Itachi doesn't get instablitzed and raped in a milisecond?


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> So you knew exactly what I meant, but you're simply grasping at straws in efforts to down play Minato. What, does his current superiority upset you? Cry some more



Minato would've never survived the situation, as he had a deep wound that medical treatment can't heal - not to mention his soul was sacrificed via Shiki Fūjin - but you had previously mentioned the latter, inquiring whether he could've accessed Kurama's chakra (if he lived). 

You're clearly 'grasping' at straws to make it seem like Minato could have survived and accessed this chakra within an unlikely scenario; there isn't proof that his natural body can handle it like Kinkaku/Ginkaku, either.

I can kindly point you to the FF section, buddy.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Minato would've never survived the situation, as he had a deep wound that medical treatment can't heal - not to mention his soul was sacrificed via Shiki Fūjin - but you had previously mentioned the latter, inquiring whether he could've accessed Kurama's chakra (if he lived).
> 
> You're clearly 'grasping' at straws to make it seem like Minato could have survived and accessed this chakra within an unlikely scenario; there isn't proof that his natural body can handle it like Kinkaku/Ginkaku, either.
> 
> I can kindly point you to the FF section, buddy.



When did I say he could of survived it?

When did I say he would of survived the wound?

I was merely wondering whether Minato could of accessed the Kyuubi's chakra, had he lived. That's all. But "King" Itachi couldn't let a guy wonder, in fear of even thinking of the humiliating rape his beloved Itachi would have to go through. I was just saying *if*, I made no implications that he would of. It's you, making shit up.

Quite a bit of fail, no?


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

Well ill wait till the raging fanboys finish playing with themselves, honestly minato is pretty broken now, but it's pretty obvious this feat was only attainable because of Edo tensei, minato only way of defeating the kyubi was by sealing him, and thanks to oro breaking the seal, the small portion of the kyubi chakra he did seal is fueling his Kcm mode.



As broken as it is, I pretty much view it as itachi with koto, Kabuto with his Edo army, oro with his Edo Kages, mobile Nagato , madara with hashi powers etc.....


With that being said ill let y'all continue and finish your moment, as for the actuall match, nothing changes much, it's either minato speed blitzes, or falls victim to tsukiyomi, it's obvious with Kcm chakra minato takes a step ahead of itachi and Nagato, but this match is pretty much still a 50/50 due to minato not having any real genjutsu defense.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 22, 2013)

It is funny actually. Both Minato and Itachi had immensely powerful abilities(KCM and Kotoamatsukami) which were not available to their "living versions".


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This logic is retarded. I don't need to explain why.




Because you cannot?



> But let me ask you one thing. What is the difference between Edo KCM Minato and Living Minato in regards to genjutsu defense ?




What's the difference between Hashirama and both Minatos in regards to Genjutsu defense?


----------



## Dr. White (May 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> KCM Minato speedblitzes Itachi with the body flicker...there is no debate. Itachi couldn't possibly react to something that fast unless Minato starts ridiculously far away.



KCM Minato is not faster than KCM Naruto...Itachi could react to Naruto, and Kishi portrayed Itachi on KCM Naruto level..Itachi(regardless of whether or not he knew it was coming) reacted to lightning via Susano which should be able to match an opening blitz attempt.

Itachi's odds are very low against KCM Minato through a prolonged fight, but you are ridiculous in saying he gets blitzed off the back. I know it is sick as shit that we get this one time oppurtunity to see Minato ball out in KCM, but you can't just go forgetting how Dangerous MS Itachi really is. 

We still need more feats to even grasp how competent he is with the mode, although I doubt he'll perform poorly we need feats. Nothing short of Kirin Power is stopping Susano, and that was regardless of Yata which couldn't work against Kirin, I only see TBB being able to land that, and then faces getting hit with Totsuka. I mean with FTG and KCM Mode Minato can no doubt get it done but Itachi is still up their and has 3 one shot techniques Minato has to be careful of.



Rocky said:


> What's the difference between Hashirama and both Minatos in regards to Genjutsu defense?



To be fair: alot. 

Hashirama has shown use of an A-Rank genjutsu showing great skill/chakra control and also is proficient in sensing, and amazing at MEdical jutsu which indicate amazing chakra control all around. Let us not also forget he has fought the best sharingan wielder dozens of times since his childhood, and had the edge, if genjutsu was a problem for him one would think Madara would have capatilized on it. Minato only fought the sharingan once per canon so far, and Obito specifically was trying to Kamui him.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 22, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> *KCM Minato is not faster than KCM Naruto*...Itachi could react to Naruto, and Kishi portrayed Itachi on KCM Naruto level..Itachi(regardless of whether or not he knew it was coming) reacted to lightning via Susano which should be able to match an opening blitz attempt.
> 
> Itachi's odds are very low against KCM Minato through a prolonged fight, but you are ridiculous in saying he gets blitzed off the back. I know it is sick as shit that we get this one time oppurtunity to see Minato ball out in KCM, but you can't just go forgetting how Dangerous MS Itachi really is.
> 
> ...



Wait what? You do realize KCM enhances all physical stats right? Minato's base speed is significantly above Naruto's base speed, so theoretically he'll be far faster in KCM than Naruto is. Unless you're trying to say Naruto's KCM is superior to Minato's, which there's currently no evidence of. 

Also, Itachi was keeping up with Naruto's foot speed, not his shunshin. Naruto never used shunshin during that fight.

This is all discounting FTG of course.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 22, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Wait what? You do realize KCM enhances all physical stats right? Minato's base speed is significantly above Naruto's base speed, so theoretically he'll be far faster in KCM than Naruto is. Unless you're trying to say Naruto's KCM is superior to Minato's, which there's currently no evidence of.
> 
> Also, Itachi was keeping up with Naruto's foot speed, not his shunshin. Naruto never used shunshin during that fight.
> 
> This is all discounting FTG.



*Spoiler*: __ 



Well Naruto has Kurama's Yang Chakra, while Minato has the Yin. Yang Chakra enhances physical stats due to being full of life, Yin is the mental half. So there IS a high chance that Minato's physical stats won't receive quite as much of a boost compared to Naruto.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> KCM Minato is not faster than KCM Naruto.





Ok, so you're normally good at posting, but this is like tripping on acid status.

Who is faster...Base Naruto or Base Minato?

The correct answer is Minato..obviously by a large margin. His flicker is quite a bit better than Base Naruto's. Hell, Minato's flicker is better than all of the other Hokage.

Now with both of them receiving the same boost in speed, KCM Minato is faster than KCM Naruto.....by a large margin. 

And Naruto never used his flicker on Itachi by the way.





> To be fair: alot.
> 
> Hashirama has shown use of an A-Rank genjutsu showing great skill/chakra control and also is proficient in sensing, and amazing at MEdical jutsu which indicate amazing chakra control all around. Let us not also forget he has fought the best sharingan wielder dozens of times since his childhood, and had the edge, if genjutsu was a problem for him one would think Madara would have capatilized on it. Minato only fought the sharingan once per canon so far, and Obito specifically was trying to Kamui him.




Grimm is speaking in terms of showings, so currently I am as well. We've never seen Hashirama face a Genjutsu, therefore he has no showings.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> When did I say he could of survived it?



You're changing my overall intentions to your liking.

Weak debating method, pal...



> When did I say he would of survived the wound?



Assuming Minato had miraculously survived Shiki Fūjin, you were inquiring whether he could've acquired mastery over the chakra; that's all.

Frankly, I'm just noting that you didn't acknowledge the other reason, making his survival unlikely and never bound to happen. 



> I was merely wondering whether Minato could of accessed the Kyuubi's chakra, had he lived. That's all. But "King" Itachi couldn't let a guy wonder, in fear of even thinking of the humiliating rape his beloved Itachi would have to go through. I was just saying *if*, I made no implications that he would of. It's you, making shit up.



You also didn't consider mentioning the wound Minato had received from Kurama, which would have ultimately killed him - assuming the sealing technique was negated - and that is what I am trying to imply. 

I don't understand why you're bringing Itachi into the equation, considering he isn't relevant within this conversation we're having; it revolves around Minato and his 'potential' survival against a death blow/sealing method. 



> Quite a bit of fail, no?



On your end.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 22, 2013)

As it stands, even without KCM, Minato was built onto be a higher tier character than Itachi. Defeating Obito (something Itachi couldn't do in life), defeating A and Bee several dozen times at the same time during the Third Shinobi World War, Jiraiya's hype, Kakashi's hype of him...

Kyubi Chakra Mode just puts Minato on a far higher tier than he already was. Itachi was at best, Jiraiya's equal by his own words and feats. Minato is far stronger than his teacher, and even moreso now that he has Kyubi Chakra Mode.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> As it stands, even without KCM, Minato was built onto be a higher tier character than Itachi. Defeating Obito (something Itachi couldn't do in life), defeating A and Bee several dozen times at the same time during the Third Shinobi World War, Jiraiya's hype, Kakashi's hype of him...
> 
> Kyubi Chakra Mode just puts Minato on a far higher tier than he already was. Itachi was at best, Jiraiya's equal by his own words and feats. Minato is far stronger than his teacher, and even moreso now that he has Kyubi Chakra Mode.



  


Dude your post reeks of fail, you don't have to dehype itachi just to make minato look good, kishi already hyped minato enough, itachi is tiers ahead of the likes of jiraiya, unless you take itachi statement of him being equal to base jiraiya seriously.


On a side note, Kcm is to minato, as koto is to itachi.


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

Regular minato is faster than KCM Naruto, it's not until BM that Naruto reaches Minato's level. KCM Minato is by far the fastest character in the series until Naruto gets the rest of Kuramas chakra. Kishi made sure to show regular Minato was faster than the rest of the hokages by quite a margin, he managed to set up seals, warp a Juubidama and have a conversation before the rest of the hokages even managed to catch up. To say Itachi could ever keep up with Minato's speed when even the Raikage or other hokages can't is pure bullshit. Minato runs circles around Itachi. Canon fact.

Genjutsu is also overrated against top tiers. Don't give me the no genjutsu defense bullshit, neither Hashirama or RS have showcased this either do they also get genjutsu'd? We know Obito can cast Tsukiyomi otherwise his plan wouldn't work yet he never attempted it on Minato, we have Madara the strongest uchiha going up against Hashirama yet again Madara didn't try it, he only managed to catch Raikage into one because he was distracted and then subdued by Susano'o. The fact that Raikage actually beats himself up for falling for a Genjutsu means he would normally not fall for it. This proves genjutsu is highly situational and requires the target to be outskilled by the caster, something that doesn't happen often in the top tiers so they don't try it. It's especially not going to work against Minato/Hashirama level characters. Trying other attacks other than wasting time trying to stare into their opponents eyes is more effective.


----------



## Sarry (May 22, 2013)

:rofl

I guess after all the times Itachi got mentioned and elevated to higher and higher levels, Minato had to get his own spot light. And as expected, Minato fans are milking that shamelessly. Poor bastards had to wait so long to get it. 

Go ahead.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> Regular minato is faster than KCM Naruto, it's not until BM that Naruto reaches Minato's level. KCM Minato is by far the fastest character in the series until Naruto gets the rest of Kuramas chakra. Kishi made sure to show regular Minato was faster than the rest of the hokages by quite a margin, he managed to set up seals, warp a Juubidama and have a conversation before the rest of the hokages even managed to catch up. To say Itachi could ever keep up with Minato's speed when even the Raikage or other hokages can't is pure bullshit. Minato runs circles around Itachi. Canon fact.
> 
> Genjutsu is also overrated against top tiers. Don't give me the no genjutsu defense bullshit, neither Hashirama or RS have showcased this either do they also get genjutsu'd? We know Obito can cast Tsukiyomi otherwise his plan wouldn't work yet he never attempted it on Minato, we have Madara the strongest uchiha going up against Hashirama yet again Madara didn't try it, he only managed to catch Raikage into one because he was distracted and then subdued by Susano'o. The fact that Raikage actually beats himself up for falling for a Genjutsu means he would normally not fall for it. This proves genjutsu is highly situational and requires the target to be outskilled by the caster, something that doesn't happen oftenin the top tiers so they don't try it. It's especially not going to work against Minato/Hashirama level characters. Trying other attacks other than wasting time trying to stare into their opponents eyes is more effective.



On one hand we have a man who grew up fighting a war against uchiha all his life, and on another hand we have a man who fought one uchiha who didn't even utilize genjutsu against him, it's not the same thing bro, just because you feel Kcm minato is the stronger of the two, which in your probably right, it doesn't negate him being open to a genjutsu, naruto isn't DBZ , 

some people are tailored well to battle other people, you could even say with minato amazing speed genjutsu could be his only weakness since you can't physically harm him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 22, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Dude your post reeks of fail, you don't have to dehype itachi just to make minato look good, kishi already hyped minato enough, itachi is tiers ahead of the likes of jiraiya, unless you take itachi statement of him being equal to base jiraiya seriously.
> 
> 
> On a side note, Kcm is to minato, as koto is to itachi.


Kishi: Jiraiya and Itachi are equals

You: Itachi is tiers higher!

Sorry, Word of God is on my side. As well as Jiraiya's and Itachi's respective feats. Not only that, the last time that there was an official Jiraiya vs Itachi topic, the Jiraiya side won the debate.

Just accept it, please.


----------



## Bonly Jr. (May 22, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> You're changing my overall intentions to your liking.
> 
> Weak debating method, pal...
> 
> ...



Yeah, can't find evidence to back up your claims, on what I apparently said. Nothing weak here, your assumptions just fail.

Yes, I was merely wondering *if* he could of mastered it had he been alive. I clearly didn't know the answer which is why I proposed the question. But you pop out of nowhere, and start mentioning things like stab wounds, which had nothing to do with my initial question, which was: Could Minato of accessed it had he lived. You took everything out of context, and you're clearly trying your hardest to prevent such a thought from occurring. 

Again, I never said his survival was likely, what's wrong with you? I was wondering if he had lived, would he of learned to control it? Shit, a name like King Itachi isn't doing you favours either. The butthurt is clear.

You're trying to imply I never mentioned the wound, why? Because it had nothing to do with my question. *It was a thought, concerning IF Minato had survived, would he be able to control it. No where am I implying he could of, I was just saying if he did.*

No, you just assumed I said Minato had potential to survive the blow/seal. I never said anything of the sort. You think I'm stupid enough to think Minato can survive a Dead demon seal? Use your common sense. For the (insert number here) time, I was questioning whether he could of learned it had he survived. *Had he survived*. It was a thought, nothing more. You're blowing everything out of proportion.


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> On one hand we have a man who grew up fighting a war against uchiha all his life, and on another hand we have a man who fought one uchiha who didn't even utilize genjutsu against him, it's not the same thing bro, just because you feel Kcm minato is the stronger of the two, which in your probably right, it doesn't negate him being open to a genjutsu, naruto isn't DBZ ,
> 
> some people are tailored well to battle other people, you could even say with minato amazing speed genjutsu could be his only weakness since you can't physically harm him.



If Obito knows genjutsu why didnt he use it against Minato?

Minato was raised in a village with plenty of uchiha and people who can use genjutsu, I wouldn't be surprised if Minato himself knows genjutsu. You can't become the strongest person in the village if you have no defense against it, even entertaining the thought is ridiculous. The point is that you can't catch fast characters in genjutsu because it's not worth leaving yourself open trying to stare into your opponents eyes while he's trying to immediately kill you unless you can subdue your opponent like Madara did to Raikage.

Minato is the fastest character in the series at this point I don't see how any Itachitard could deny that, to touch him never mind subdue him is something no one can do.


----------



## ueharakk (May 22, 2013)

Since he's featless, I think it's okay to use A>B>C logic for now.

KCM Minato >>>>>>>>>>> living Minato > Edo Itachi >>> Itachi


----------



## Bonly (May 22, 2013)

Since he's featless, I think it's okay to use A>B>C logic for now.

KCM Minato >>>>>>>>>>> living Minato > Edo Itachi >>> Itachi


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Yeah, can't find evidence to back up your claims, on what I apparently said. Nothing weak here, your assumptions just fail.



You're twisting this out of proportion.

Initially, you were inquiring whether Minato could've mastered the chakra - assuming he had survived Shiki Fūjin - but you failed to mention the fact that he was mortally wounded by Kurama, which is what I've been claiming the entire time. 



> Yes, I was merely wondering *if* he could of mastered it had he been alive. I clearly didn't know the answer which is why I proposed the question. But you pop out of nowhere, and start mentioning things like stab wounds, which had nothing to do with my initial question, which was: Could Minato of accessed it had he lived. You took everything out of context, and you're clearly trying your hardest to prevent such a thought from occurring.



I realize that you proposed the question, though there wasn't any detail regarding his deep wound. Essentially, I'd pointed out that specific aspect, as he would've never survived with the injury.

The mortal wound from Kurama is relevant to your question, because you failed to mention the former; it would've ultimately killed Minato, in fact. 



> Again, I never said his survival was likely, what's wrong with you? I was wondering if he had lived, would he of learned to control it? Shit, a name like King Itachi isn't doing you favours either. The butthurt is clear.



I *never* stated his survival was likely; this coincides with your question. Assuming Minato had miraculously survived Shiki Fūjin, you were inquiring whether he could've acquired mastery over the chakra; that's is what you were wondering. However, you missed a significant element.



> You're trying to imply I never mentioned the wound, why? Because it had nothing to do with my question. *It was a thought, concerning IF Minato had survived, would he be able to control it. No where am I implying he could of, I was just saying if he did.*



You forgot to bring up the fact that Minato was on the verge of death (as it is), though, and the wound from Kurama would've eventually killed him; that wasn't remotely implied, to be honest. 



> No, you just assumed I said Minato had potential to survive the blow/seal. I never said anything of the sort. You think I'm stupid enough to think Minato can survive a Dead demon seal? Use your common sense. For the (insert number here) time, I was questioning whether he could of learned it had he survived. *Had he survived*. It was a thought, nothing more. You're blowing everything out of proportion.



It is quite clear that Minato can't survive Shiki Fūjin, but that isn't why we're having this conversation. Additionally, I answered what you requested.

Another thing:

You don't need to lose hair over this situation, buddy.


----------



## Sablés (May 22, 2013)

I've come to witness the anal displeasure encompassing all but the greatest of Minato wankers.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> If Obito knows genjutsu why didnt he use it against Minato?
> 
> Minato was raised in a village with plenty of uchiha and people who can use genjutsu, I wouldn't be surprised if Minato himself knows genjutsu. You can't become the strongest person in the village if you have no defense against it, even entertaining the thought is ridiculous. The point is that you can't catch fast characters in genjutsu because it's not worth leaving yourself open trying to stare into your opponents eyes while he's trying to immediately kill you unless you can subdue your opponent like Madara did to Raikage.
> 
> Minato is the fastest character in the series at this point I don't see how any Itachitard could deny that, to touch him never mind subdue him is something no one can do.



Because obito could of concluded, minato would break out of a "base" genjutsu and react with FTG before obito could capitalize, tsukiyomi however which obito doesn't possess could tip the scale.



What your saying makes no sense, having great genjutsu defense isn't a prerequisite for becoming hokage, note mizukage for example.



You seem to be confusing tsukiyomi with every other base sharingon genjutsu.



I'm not a itachi tard, nor did I deny minato being the fastest character in the manga, I simply said he has no defense against tsukiyomi, which is true until proven otherwise.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 22, 2013)

Tsukyomi GG


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Because obito could of concluded, minato would break out of a "base" genjutsu and react with FTG before obito could capitalize, tsukiyomi however which obito doesn't possess could tip the scale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Obito wants to cast infinite tsukiyomi but he doesnt know tsukiyomi. Well shit, I guess the Hokages and the alliance can go home now. They have nothing to fear it's all a bluff.

Dont compare other kages to the first four hokages, Kishi has already stated that they are the strongest, they are so far apart from the other kages it's not even funny.

Minato has the best defense against Genjutsu, his speed. Which is unrivaled. He's not going to stop to stare lovingly into Itachi's eyes while Itachi is trying to do just that, Itachi will have to worry about being blitzed he doesnt have time to even attempt Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Because you cannot?



No, like I said it is retarded.

Hashirama and Minato are two different characters, with completely different skillset and power.



> What's the difference between Hashirama and both Minatos in regards to Genjutsu defense?



Hashirama has fought Uchiha his whole life and never lost. He happens to be a genjutsu user himself and has SM(which grants some sort of genjutsu defense due to sensory abilities). 
And He is on a completely different tier.


So let me ask you again, what is the difference between Living Minato and Edo KCM Minato in regards to genjutsu defense ?
What I am saying is, if one could make an argument that Genjutsu, Tsukiyomi in particular, could be effective against Minato, then he or she could say the same about Edo KCM Minato.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> So Obito wants to cast infinite tsukiyomi but he doesnt know tsukiyomi. Well shit, I guess the Hokages and the alliance can go home now. They have nothing to fear it's all a bluff.
> 
> Dont compare other kages to the first four hokages, Kishi has already stated that they are the strongest, they are so far apart from the other kages it's not even funny.
> 
> Minato has the best defense against Genjutsu, his speed. Which is unrivaled. He's not going to stop to stare lovingly into Itachi's eyes while Itachi is trying to do just that, Itachi will have to worry about being blitzed he doesnt have time to even attempt Tsukiyomi.



It's been clear since day one each eye grants you one ability, so we know one eye allows him to use kamui, where is his tsukiyomi coming from?  Do you have any feats of  obito using tsukiyomi, or any feats of one sharingon eye using more then one ms power? Don't worry I'll wait 

We have no clue how they plan on using the tsukiyomi, we don't know of madara possessed it, or if its something related to datara, you can't assume things just so it benefits your argument.



So show me a scan of it saying you have to have good genjutsu defense to be a hokage, don't worry I'll wait again.




That's assuming he doesn't look itachi in the eyes first.



He looked obito in the eyes I'm willing to say he would do the same against itachi.


----------



## Doge (May 22, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Tsukyomi GG



Minato blitzes w/o looking into his eyes GG.  

Itachi has never used a genjutsu other than Tsukuyomi to take on a powerful opponent.  Note, against Kabuto he just covered up his eyes.  Why couldn't Itachi just cast a different genjutsu and restrain him anyways?


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> It's been clear since day one each eye grants you one ability, so we know one eye allows him to use kamui, where is his tsukiyomi coming from?  Do you have any feats of  obito using tsukiyomi, or any feats of one sharingon eye using more then one ms power? Don't worry I'll wait
> 
> We have no clue how they plan on using the tsukiyomi, we don't know of madara possessed it, or if its something related to datara, you can't assume things just so it benefits your argument.



[1]

Obito was never expecting Madara to be revived by Kabuto, here he clearly says he'll magnify his jutsu "tsukiyomi" onto the moon. How he'll do it I dont know, the rest is for Kishi to explain.
How the fuck is he going to magnify a jutsu he doesnt possess?



> So show me a scan of it saying you have to have good genjutsu defense to be a hokage, don't worry I'll wait again.




So hokages master a 1000 Jutsus but they learn no genjutsu defense? How thick are you?




> That's assuming he doesn't look itachi in the eyes first.
> 
> 
> 
> He looked obito in the eyes I'm willing to say he would do the same against itachi.



That's assuming Itachi's head isn't rolling on the floor first.

Hardly, the encounter lasted for less than a second, if obito could have casted a genjutsu why didn't he? what was stopping him?


----------



## Stermor (May 22, 2013)

minato's genjutsu defense is pretty easy... he is fast enough that people can't register he looked in there eyes... which btw is hard to do on any moving target.. and uhm even itachi has never casts genjutsu on somebody moving quickly.. and minato is not just quick..


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Since he's featless, I think it's okay to use A>B>C logic for now.
> 
> KCM Minato >>>>>>>>>>> living Minato > Edo Itachi >>> Itachi



I mean pretty much this. It is pretty obvious that minato is in the "God tier" right now...if you were not sure last week you should be now.

When we get feats i will be able to put some more ">" signs after KCM Minato in your ranking.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> [1]
> 
> Obito was never expecting Madara to be revived by Kabuto, here he clearly says he'll magnify his jutsu "tsukiyomi" onto the moon. How he'll do it I dont know, the rest is for Kishi to explain.
> How the fuck is he going to magnify a jutsu he doesnt possess?
> ...



So I take it you concede since I see no scans as such, at that time obito was posing as madara anyway and it's not like he would be truthful to the gokage or go into exact detail on how he would accomplish his plan. For you to believe 14 year old obito had tsukiyomi, you would also have to believe its possible for one sharingon eye to have more then one ms ability.


Genjutsu defense is one thing, breaking out of tsukiyomi is a entirely different story, and hokage aren't perfect ninjas don't be silly, it's possible for them to not posses genjutsu defense just like mizukage.



Already answer  this your assement is poorly supported.



Only thing we can agree on is it depends on who strikes first, in essence it's always a 50/50 between these two, regardless if u think the fourth is stronger or not.


----------



## Veo (May 22, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Someone has to do it.



I lol'ed, but you are totally right.

We haven't seen anything yet from this Minato, so... Anyway I believe Minato is superior to Itachi in their normal forms (human)


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> So I take it you concede since I see no scans as such, at that time obito was posing as madara anyway and it's not like he would be truthful to the gokage or go into exact detail on how he would accomplish his plan. For you to believe 14 year old obito had tsukiyomi, you would also have to believe its possible for one sharingon eye to have more then one ms ability.



You didn't answer my question, how is Obito casting infinite tsukiyomi without tsukiyomi? 
Concession accepted.
Irrelevant. Age doesnt mean shit in Naruto. Current Naruto is 16 and stronger than 99.9% of Narutoverse.


> Genjutsu defense is one thing, breaking out of tsukiyomi is a entirely different story, and hokage aren't perfect ninjas don't be silly, it's possible for them to not posses genjutsu defense just like mizukage.



It's clearly stated in the panel I posted that a hokage has to be well taught in every aspect of being a shinobi. Genjutsu defence is an aspect of being a shinobi. Also any 1-4 Hokage>>>>>>>>>>>Mizukage



> Already answer  this your assement is poorly supported.



Your assessment is non existent.



> Only thing we can agree on is it depends on who strikes first, in essence it's always a 50/50 between these two, regardless if u think the fourth is stronger or not.



Nope I don't agree, regular Minato had the upper hand in their fight. Current Minato would ROFLstomp Itachi. Look at the poll, the vast majority of people agree that Itachi is completely outshined at this point by Minato.


----------



## ImSerious (May 22, 2013)

this spite thread has gone on long enough.


locking.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 22, 2013)

I thought Minato without KCM could beat Itachi. However with KCM, I think he can do it more easily.

Minato could litter the field with kunai. Also he could move a lot faster than Itachi can see and possibly land a pretty powerful Rasengan pretty shortly. Especially if he decides to use the extended arms.


----------



## eyeknockout (May 22, 2013)

edo minato > living itachi > living minato


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 22, 2013)

Genjutsu defence is a bad argument. 

We know a Chunin level jutsu is the 'kai' seal used to break out of Genjutsu. Unless you're a special case like the old Naruto or Kisame, then chances are characters generally know how to get out of Genjutsu. 

Not to mention it is hard to use Genjutsu on characters who just move too fast for you to maintain eye contact.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 22, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> You didn't answer my question, how is Obito casting infinite tsukiyomi without tsukiyomi?
> Concession accepted.
> Irrelevant. Age doesnt mean shit in Naruto. Current Naruto is 16 and stronger than 99.9% of Narutoverse.
> 
> ...




, I don't know and I don't care, obito stating his overall plan doesn't change the fact that only one ms ability is permitted per eye, obito reciting madara's plan to the gokage means nothing.

Your logic is beyond faulty and is based entirely on poor assumptions, until any uchiha in the manga displayes more then one ms ability with one eye then your assumption makes absolutely no sense. I guess obito didn't use tsukiyomi on anybody during the entire manga just for the fuk of it 




Are you seriously arguing genjutsu defense is enough to over come tsukiyomi 

That's becaused a chapter came out hyping minato, but the entire poll is basing it on absolutely no feats.


The reason it has always been a 50/50 between the two was because minato has no answer to tsukiyomi, in which he still doesn't, and itachi has no answer to his speed in which he still doesn't even more so now, Kcm without kurama didn't fix minato's problem against itachi .


----------



## Ƶero (May 22, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> , I don't know and I don't care, obito stating his overall plan doesn't change the fact that only one ms ability is permitted per eye, obito reciting madara's plan to the gokage means nothing.
> 
> Your logic is beyond faulty and is based entirely on poor assumptions, until any uchiha in the manga displayes more then one ms ability with one eye then your assumption makes absolutely no sense. I guess obito didn't use tsukiyomi on anybody during the entire manga just for the fuk of it



You've still not answered the question, I guess you can't. We know Obito will use Tsukiyomi for the moon eye plan. Seriously, stop being so dense.



> Are you seriously arguing genjutsu defense is enough to over come tsukiyomi



So you admit they have genjutsu defense, ok good at least now we're getting somewhere. Minatos speed overcomes Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi is never going to land on the fastest character in the manga. Itachi can try though, while he's doing that Minato will be bending him over.



> That's becaused a chapter came out hyping minato, but the entire poll is basing it on absolutely no feats.
> 
> 
> The reason it has always been a 50/50 between the two was because minato has no answer to tsukiyomi, in which he still doesn't, and itachi has no answer to his speed in which he still doesn't even more so now, Kcm without kurama didn't fix minato's problem against itachi .



lol gtfo, 
this is getting pathetic. Clearly most people here disagree with you, Itachi gets his face caved in.


----------



## eyeknockout (May 22, 2013)

actually it's still possible for itachi to win. considering minato couldn't use kyuubi chakra until he was dead, that is even less of "his power" as kotoamatsukami is itachi's power. so that would mean itachi has kotoamatsukami...which basically means he still has an insta win on him, and minato has no knowledge on that.


----------



## Kai (May 22, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> actually it's still possible for itachi to win. considering minato couldn't use kyuubi chakra until he was dead, that is even less of "his power" as kotoamatsukami is itachi's power. so that would mean itachi has kotoamatsukami...which basically means he still has an insta win on him, and minato has no knowledge on that.


It's not established whether or not Itachi can reprogram Koto again - after all, he set it to activate only upon witnessing his eyes.


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> actually it's still possible for itachi to win. considering minato couldn't use kyuubi chakra until he was dead, that is even less of "his power" as kotoamatsukami is itachi's power. so that would mean itachi has kotoamatsukami...which basically means he still has an insta win on him, and minato has no knowledge on that.



Nay, Minato even without Kurama's chakra was stronger than Itachi!
now with this to distance between them is even greater.


----------



## eyeknockout (May 22, 2013)

Kai said:


> It's not established whether or not Itachi can reprogram Koto again - after all, he set it to activate only upon witnessing his eyes.



we don't even know how long minato can keep up BM mode, for all we know it could only last for 20 seconds before he paralyzes his body.

basically i've always put alive itachi >/= minato with very very small margin if any, and it is pretty clear that edo minato is shaping up to be a full tier above edo itachi, but at the same time the wank is a lot too much considering minato hasn't done anything at all with his bijuu mode yet.


----------



## Rocky (May 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, like I said it is retarded.
> Hashirama and Minato are two different characters, with completely different skillset and power. Hashirama has fought Uchiha his whole life and never lost. He happens to be a genjutsu user himself and has SM(which grants some sort of genjutsu defense due to sensory abilities).
> And He is on a completely different tier.



You're missing the point. Fighting Uchiha, having one Genjutsu, and being a Sage (which has nothing to do with Genjutsu defense) are not in any shape or form proof that Hashirama can survive Itachi's Tsukuyomi without knowledge, amiright? 

This is why your logic doesn't flow. Use common sense. If you think Minato is going to stare into Itachi's eyes like a confused toddler, than sure, Tsukuyomi good game. But if that's the path you're taking, it applies to everyone else as well, including Hashirama.​



> So let me ask you again, what is the difference between Living Minato and Edo KCM Minato in regards to genjutsu defense ?




The difference is that KCM Minato would effectively be too fast for Itachi to trace. If he can't maintain eye contact, how does he even initiate the illusion? Kurama's Chakra took Naruto and made him faster than lighting-synapse Raikage. What do you think it's going to do to Minato? Minato's Shunshin in Base was already quick (quicker than any of the Hokage, in fact) and adding the same boost Naruto got is _overkill._

Combine that with the speed of Hiraishin, and it's just a stomp. Minato doesn't need to look at Itachi's eyes to blitz the ever loving fuck out of him. Hell, If Itachi & Minato skirmish like Itachi & Naruto did, Minato'll place a tag on him and that'll be that.

I mean even Susano'o...what can it do. It wasn't fast enough to hit Base Minato..as it isn't faster than Ei. KCM ruins Itachi's day. Then, Minato can just "lol warp" Itachi's entire spirit god to the middle of the ocean and leave him defenseless. We've seen that separating Susano'o and it's user is an effective counter, and Minato can warp Juubi Bombs in an instant....so put two and two together.


____________


It would be very difficult for Itachi to defeat Minato in life; the only way would be for him to get lucky through Genjutsu of some sort. With KCM, Minato is going to move at speeds Itachi can not hope to actually combat. There will be no Tsukuyomi GG. There will be no Amaterasu GG. No Totsuka GG, no Izanami GG. None of that. If you can't hit your opponent, you're literally at their mercy. The only reason Sasuke was able to prevent the Raikage to ripping him to pieces was the layer of fire over his Susano'o... and all the Raikage was using was speed and basic Taijutsu.

Sasuke's offense failed completely. He hit Ei because the latter ran through his fire shied in a bout of rage. Sasuke didn't Genjutsu GG him because he was weak against Genjutsu. Hell, Madara had to hold Ei down to capture him in an illusion, and it took 5 Susano'o clones and a distraction to do so. Funny enough, The Raikage was the only person Sasuke didn't attempt Genjutsu on out of all his battles in Part 2 (excluding Kabuto who announced he was immune). I'm aware that Sasuke isn't Itachi, but the same concept applies. If Itachi can't even follow RM Minato, how will he ever hope to achieve extended eye contact and activate a Genjutsu? It's ludicrous and highly unlikely.

If you want to sit here and tell me Itachi floors the 4th with Genjutsu, be my guest. You'll get the same treatment from me as those who claim Preta Path solo's Shinsuusenju and Hashirama can't do anything against Chibaku Tensei. The poll, which is like 47 to 9 in favor of Minato, only proves I'm kind of wasting my time with a hardcore fan who's not likely to change his views. Unless you want to hardcore feat-Nazi me, it was made pretty clear who was "stronger" last week when Minato stopped an attack that was about to ruin many days. The Ten-Tail's be all end all Bomb, countered with a simple Kunai to the ground. Komenos said it best: "Itachi's portrayal wasn't so effortless." Go ahead, keep on rooting for "The King", and cling to those "feat only" arguments. In the eyes of the author, there's almost no doubt in my mind that Minato even while alive was the more powerful Shinobi, and with the addition of KCM......well, feats, portrayal, the poll, and common sense should tell you where the two stand now.​


----------



## Trojan (May 22, 2013)

Even* IF* Itachi put Minato in a genjutsu, Minato can break it with Kurama's chakra
the genjutsu won't effect both the chakras.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 22, 2013)

Rocky. . .Hashi would just tank _Tsukuyomi_.

It doesn't instantly knock people out, and Hashi has medical ninjutsu comparable to Tsunade, who cured Tsukuyomi effortlessly.

He wakes up after one second and taps his head.

Yes this is what would happen were he to ever get hit by Tsukuyomi and all of us know it.

But we can't make such a case for Minato.


----------



## Ghost (May 23, 2013)

Edo Tensei versions? Minato can't get through Susano'o.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 23, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Edo Tensei versions? Minato can't get through Susano'o.


He can tap it and teleport it away, and while Itachi is standing there shocked, Minato reappears, slaps him with a tag, and is at Minato's utter mercy.


----------



## Namikaze Minato (May 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're missing the point. Fighting Uchiha, having one Genjutsu, and being a Sage (which has nothing to do with Genjutsu defense) are not in any shape or form proof that Hashirama can survive Itachi's Tsukuyomi without knowledge, amiright?
> 
> This is why your logic doesn't flow. Use common sense. If you think Minato is going to stare into Itachi's eyes like a confused toddler, than sure, Tsukuyomi good game. But if that's the path you're taking, it applies to everyone else as well, including Hashirama.​
> 
> ...



This right here, Minato babyshakes Itachi so hard it ain't even funny anymore like it used to be


----------



## Dantee (May 23, 2013)

Itachi would win. First of all alive Minato can't use KCM chakra mode so that argument is out the window unless they are both Edo which ends in a stalemate.


Itachi is a proficient sharigan user and Minato knowing that has to look away from his eyes which henders his ability to fight right there.
If Minato is not looking Itachi in the eye he will also never know when AMaterasu is coming. 

Only Gai has been shown able to fight someone 1 on 1 without directly looking in their eyes.

Secondly Itachi has the best shuriken jutsu in the whole manga. If Minato plans on spreading his ftg kunai Itachi easily dismisses them.

Base Minato is not blitzing Itachi outside of ftg who has a raw 5 speed in the DB.

Itachi only relies on Susanoo for a trump card so that argument is out the window. Itachi usually starts his fights with genjutsu and Minato who has no genjutsu feats bows down to Itachi in the beggining of the fight.


Minato's handseals are made out of chakra so Itachi will be able to see where he plants them.

Minato wankers get over yourselves.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 23, 2013)

Oh let's play.

Going to start this off realy simple.

What does Minato possess to bypass Susano?

He has no cooperation with Kurama what's his strategy for defending against genjutsu?

Doesn't Minato proving to actually need a HAX supposed to hurt his character? 

I'd wait to see what KCM brings to the table for Minato before composing such a malicious thread.


----------



## Dantee (May 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He can tap it and teleport it away, and while Itachi is standing there shocked, Minato reappears, slaps him with a tag, and is at Minato's utter mercy.



This ahole wants to neg rep me without even giving a decent argument. Look at this kid calling me a troll and he shows no type of logic towards this thread. GTFO


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're missing the point. Fighting Uchiha, having one Genjutsu, and being a Sage (which has nothing to do with Genjutsu defense) are not in any shape or form proof that Hashirama can survive Itachi's Tsukuyomi without knowledge, amiright? ​



Actually you are missing the point. 
If it lands, yeah Hashirama would get comatosed.

But there is also the chance that Hashirama can retain consciousness long enough to be able to activate that healing shit Tsunade had, which might heal up whatever damage Tsukiyomi had caused. 
Though it is pretty much unknown teritory.

The thing is, the likehood of Itachi landing a Tsukiyomi on Hashirama is much less than the likehood of him landing it on Minato.
Mostly because Hashirama is a long range fighter, is a genjutsu user, has shitloads of experience fighting Uchiha(and destroying them). 



> This is why your logic doesn't flow. Use common sense. If you think Minato is going to stare into Itachi's eyes like a confused toddler, than sure, Tsukuyomi good game. But if that's the path you're taking, it applies to everyone else as well, including Hashirama.


Without knowledge or without having the experience to fight Uchiha, that is exactly whats going to  happen, though.




> The difference is that KCM Minato would effectively be too fast for Itachi to trace. If he can't maintain eye contact, how does he even initiate the illusion? Kurama's Chakra took Naruto and made him faster than lighting-synapse Raikage. What do you think it's going to do to Minato? Minato's Shunshin in Base was already quick (quicker than any of the Hokage, in fact) and adding the same boost Naruto got is _overkill._
> 
> Combine that with the speed of Hiraishin, and it's just a stomp. Minato doesn't need to look at Itachi's eyes to blitz the ever loving fuck out of him. Hell, If Itachi & Minato skirmish like Itachi & Naruto did, Minato'll place a tag on him and that'll be that.
> 
> ...



TBH I can't comment on this part. Because this dwells on something we haven't seen yet. 
If Minato's speed goes beyond KCM Naruto's to the extend that the gap would be significant, then I'd agree with you.

Some flawed points : 

Itachi is faster than Sasuke, so using an infeiror combatant to make your point is false.
Absence of evidence is not evidence, just because Sasuke didn't use genjutsu on Raikage doesn't mean he thought it wouldn't work. He actually had absolutely no idea about Raikage's capabilities.
He didn't use it on Mei or Mifune or others he also met in that encounter.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (May 23, 2013)

How about you wait until Minato actually shows some moves before making this thread. Not to mention he has Chakra Mode not Bijuu Mode.


----------



## Ƶero (May 23, 2013)

This is a spite thread. Current Minato would horribly rape Itachi.


----------



## Rocky (May 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Without knowledge or without having the experience to fight Uchiha, that is exactly whats going to  happen, though.




Why would he? As long as he knows the basics of the Sharingan he would avoid doing that. It would be like the Gokage vs. Madara, they avoided eye contact.







> Itachi is faster than Sasuke, so using an infeiror combatant to make your point is false.
> Absence of evidence is not evidence, just because Sasuke didn't use genjutsu on Raikage doesn't mean he thought it wouldn't work. He actually had absolutely no idea about Raikage's capabilities.
> He didn't use it on Mei or Mifune or others he also met in that encounter.




I agree, Itachi is faster than Sasuke, but KCM Naruto is faster than Ei. Which means, KCM Minato would be much faster than Ei. You're looking at a massive speed gap between Minato and Itachi here.

I used that to demonstrate an IC point. Mei and Mifune weren't extended fights, and Sasuke was in so much pain he could hardly stand. The Raikage was his only "real" fight at the summit and you know that. Did Sasuke really even have the opportunity at the Summit to hit Ei with an illusion?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why would he? As long as he knows the basics of the Sharingan he would avoid doing that. It would be like the Gokage vs. Madara, they avoided eye contact.


Did they  ?

I remember Madara casting a genjutsu on A.

Also avoiding eye contact and fighting is easier said than done. Especially against Itachi whose eyes you need to watch for a sign of Amaterasu.





> I agree, Itachi is faster than Sasuke, but KCM Naruto is faster than Ei. Which means, KCM Minato would be much faster than Ei. You're looking at a massive speed gap between Minato and Itachi here.


KCM Naruto is slightly faster than A at max speed. 

And like I said, I can't comment on the massive speed gap before I see it.
Does Kyuubi mode multiply their stats ? 



> I used that to demonstrate an IC point. Mei and Mifune weren't extended fights, and Sasuke was in so much pain he could hardly stand.


Yet the opportunity was there, Mei was standing a few meters away from Sasuke and she wasn't moving. Sasuke was able to use Susano'o, so I think he could also manage to use a genjutsu.



> The Raikage was his only "real" fight at the summit and you know that. Did Sasuke really even have the opportunity at the Summit to hit Ei with an illusion?



The only time when A escaped Sasuke's vision was when he went V2 and circled around him. 
And my point stands, absence of evidence is not evidence. 
And it is a known fact that Itachi is a better genjutsu user and he uses it more frequenlty and unconventionally.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> KCM Naruto is slightly faster than A at max speed.
> 
> And like I said, I can't comment on the massive speed gap before I see it.
> *Does Kyuubi mode multiply their stats ?*



Base Naruto's speed is significantly below V2 A. KCM boosted his speed to being marginally above V2 A. That's a significant boost. Minato's base speed is significantly above base Naruto's. You do the math.

Minato's speed in KCM should be significantly above KCM Naruto's. It's pretty much common sense. 

And people need to stop with this genjutsu gg crap. Madara needed to catch A just to entrap him in a genjutsu. A has told time and time again that genjutsu wouldn't work on him (presumably because he was far too fast). Minato's even faster, so enough with this NLF genjutsu shit. And enough with the double standards as well. Oh it'll work on Minato, but it won't work on Hashirama despite NEITHER showing a resistance to genjutsu. You can't agree with one while completely disagreeing with the other. You don't get to sit here and say since I don't like Minato it'll work on him, but I'm neutral toward Hashirama so it won't work on him. 

I'm tired of hearing Itachi can just genjutsu anyone who hasn't shown a resistance to genjutsu. I guess he can genjutsu the So6p. Keep that NLF bs out of here. It's the same shit Itachi fans are always spouting when it comes to the yata mirror as well.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 23, 2013)

*Minato wins in BAMFLASH  



I don't think Susano will even come into play here, considering Obito had no time to reactive his Kamui (which is just as fast, or even faster than Susano activation) :

[1]

[1]

[1]

[1]

If you count the speed boost Boss mode gives, this becomes a joke.


But if we assume that Susano can come into play, we've already seen that Madara can be separated from his Susano and then judge that it's faster to awaken his rinnegan and use Preta path, instead of bringing the chakra construct back.

We've also seen Minato able to teleport himself and Kurama, while on top of Gamabunta, while not touching Kurama or moving Gamabunta even an inch:

[1]
[1]

So separating the user from his Susano is perfectly in Minato's capabilities.


And then it ends with a BAMFLASH 


As for genjutsu, Kishi made it pretty obvious that is next to impossible against someone as fast as Minato.

With Obito not even bothering to use his genjutsu that could control perfect Jin for years, against Minato.

Also, the much slower Ei, needed to be distracted by not only fighting 5 Susano clones, but also Tsunade getting herself into trouble before Madara can finally put him into genjutsu.





*


----------



## Turrin (May 23, 2013)

Based on shown abilities; Edo Minato > Edo Itachi = Minato > Sick Itachi

With Minato's defenses (outside KCM) Itachi really has nothing that can hit the guy. Minato can evade all Itachi's physical attacks with his speed and his reflexes/speed as shown by Raikage against both Sasuke & Madara make it incredibly difficult to cast Genjutsu on him. Itachi's best chance is to turtle behind Susano'o, but even assuming Minato can not bypass through any of his jutsu, Sick Itachi would run out of juice long before any opening could be exposed on Minato. Than Minato comes in and finishes him. So even in the worst case scenario Minato should win with mid difficulty and that's why I consider him superior to Sick Itachi.

Edo Itachi has more ground to stand on since he has unlimited Stamina and Edo body which would certainly push Minato a-lot harder and may even demand Minato use Shikka Fuujin to take him down. Though of course there is still the potential that Minato jutsu could bypass Susano'o & he'd have another Fuuinjutsu that does not require his life to seal Edo Itachi (something like Hakke Seal), but even in that instance we can expect Minato to have high difficulty accomplishing all of that against an opponent as deadly as Itachi who can spam his jutsu w/o any repercussions. So even in the best case scenario Minato should have a considerably amount of difficulty against Edo Itachi, which is why I consider the two within in the same general tier or "level".

However once we give Minato KCM & Edo Buffs, though we haven't seen much of this Minato, the above difficulty should logically decrease. Therefore one has to conclude logically this Minato should be above Edo Itachi.

Now that's based on abilities. But based on how Kishi has been acting lately it wouldn't surprise me if he suddenly gave Itachi some other random power up that put him in the running again. Of course if Minato starts pulling out absolutely ridiculous shit with his KCM or pulls out a BM next, the chances of this start to go down. So we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## Rocky (May 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Did they  ?
> 
> I remember Madara casting a genjutsu on A.
> 
> Also avoiding eye contact and fighting is easier said than done. Especially against Itachi whose eyes you need to watch for a sign of Amaterasu.



Madara was able to land a Genjustu only after he restrained the Raikage with Susano'o. It's not like Madara dropped all 5 Kage with Genjutsu, even though none of them have really shown any defense against it.

Avoiding eye contact when you are tiers faster isn't really difficult at all. Do you think Ei was focusing on Sasuke's eyes during their battle? Seriously. when Minato's teleporting all around the battlefield with Hiraishin or his KCM flicker, how would Itachi even focus in on him, let alone actually do anything?





> KCM Naruto is slightly faster than A at max speed.
> 
> And like I said, I can't comment on the massive speed gap before I see it.
> Does Kyuubi mode multiply their stats ?



Yes of course it does. Do you think Kyuubi Mode Rin would be as fast as Kyuubi Mode Raikage? No, that's asinine. 

Like I said, you can be a feat Nazi and claim that since we haven't seen anything yet we don't know. But in all honesty, we know about KCM through Naruto, and Minato was clearly using the same exact mode. Minato's body flicker should be enhanced to a point well out of Itachi's perceptive range. Then there's always Hiraishin, which allowed Minato to blitz Ei, who is much better than Itachi in both reflexes and movement speed.




> The only time when A escaped Sasuke's vision was when he went V2 and circled around him.
> And my point stands, absence of evidence is not evidence.
> And it is a known fact that Itachi is a better genjutsu user and he uses it more frequenlty and unconventionally.




Minato in base already fought at a level of speed above Itachi's. He just used Hiraishin. Genjutsu isn't an auto-hit; Itachi still needs to actually make eye contact and use the Jutsu. That's difficult to do when you opponent can teleport from one place to another at speeds that overwhelm guys like Ei and Obito. Itachi is below those guys in reflexes to begin with, and now Minato gets KCM? Yeah no, Itachi just can't keep up anymore. There's a limit.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Base Naruto's speed is significantly below V2 A. KCM boosted his speed to being marginally above V2 A. That's a significant boost. Minato's base speed is significantly above base Naruto's. You do the math.
> 
> Minato's speed in KCM should be significantly above KCM Naruto's. It's pretty much common sense.



Thats what I am not sure of.

It could be that KCM amps up stats to a default value, instead of multiplying them.

Its like X for everyone, give or take.



> And people need to stop with this genjutsu gg crap. Madara needed to catch A just to entrap him in a genjutsu.


Actually we don't know if it was a necessity. It was more like he caught him and it was a good opportunity to cast it.
Unless A was moving around the field with his max speed all the time, which he wasn't, I don't understand why he can't be caught by a genjutsu.



> A has told time and time again that genjutsu wouldn't work on him (presumably because he was far too fast).


He actually didn't say that.



> Minato's even faster, so enough with this NLF genjutsu shit. And enough with the double standards as well. Oh it'll work on Minato, but it won't work on Hashirama despite NEITHER showing a resistance to genjutsu. You can't agree with one while completely disagreeing with the other



I explained above why people think that.
There are no double standarts, its just common sense.



> . You don't get to sit here and say since I don't like Minato it'll work on him, but I'm neutral toward Hashirama so it won't work on him.


 Thats what you think. I gave my reasoning above.



> I'm tired of hearing Itachi can just genjutsu anyone who hasn't shown a resistance to genjutsu. I guess he can genjutsu the So6p. Keep that NLF bs out of here. It's the same shit Itachi fans are always spouting when it comes to the yata mirror as well.



I don't know what to say to you...

I think you are just a bit mad that Itachi > your Fave. 



edit : 



Rocky said:


> Madara was able to land a Genjustu only after he restrained the Raikage with Susano'o.


Thats what he chose to do, so what ? 
A panel or two before, A was standing still, trying to defend against his Susano'o.



> It's not like Madara dropped all 5 Kage with Genjutsu, even though none of them have really shown any defense against it.


Well I guess he isn't as eager or as good as Itachi is with it.

I don't understand why people other than Itachi  not opting to use genjutsu have anything to do with Itachi.



> Avoiding eye contact when you are tiers faster isn't really difficult at all. Do you think Ei was focusing on Sasuke's eyes during their battle?


He was, because he amped up his shroud after he saw Sasuke switched to MS.


> Seriously. when Minato's teleporting all around the battlefield with Hiraishin or his KCM flicker, how would Itachi even focus in on him, let alone actually do anything?


You are right. If he constantly moves around the field, Itachi won't be able to focus on him.
But then, it won't accomplish anything for Minato either.






> Yes of course it does. Do you think Kyuubi Mode Rin would be as fast as Kyuubi Mode Raikage? No, that's asinine.


Actually, I don't know about that.
It could also be an added value.

Lets say its value is 10.
A guy with a speed rating of 5 will have his speed tripled when you add 10.
A guy with a speed rating of 20 won't even have it doubled.





> Like I said, you can be a feat Nazi and claim that since we haven't seen anything yet we don't know. But in all honesty, we know about KCM through Naruto, and Minato was clearly using the same exact mode. Minato's body flicker should be enhanced to a point well out of Itachi's perceptive range. Then there's always Hiraishin, which allowed Minato to blitz Ei, who is much better than Itachi in both reflexes and movement speed.


Minato didn't blitz A, he teleported on the guys back when A was on mid action. A was outmanuever, he wasn't blitzed.

And be a feat Nazi, please. Because right now, it is working for me.





> Minato in base already fought at a level of speed above Itachi's. He just used Hiraishin. Genjutsu isn't an auto-hit; Itachi still needs to actually make eye contact and use the Jutsu. That's difficult to do when you opponent can teleport from one place to another at speeds that overwhelm guys like Ei and Obito. Itachi is below those guys in reflexes to begin with, and now Minato gets KCM? Yeah no, Itachi just can't keep up anymore. There's a limit.


Itachi's forte isn't his movement speed. Itachi would stand still, and still defeat people without even moving or lifting a finger. 
Although we both know that Itachi is no slouch when it comes to that either, he pseudo blitzed B twice and B is fast in his own right.

Also there is no evidence that Obito has better reflexes than Itachi.


----------



## Kai (May 23, 2013)

I personally believe Hiraishin would sever the link for genjutsu Itachi creates through the medium of Minato's senses. Illusions must be incredibly advanced to go as far as to completely paralyze the mind (Frog Song), and we know A's Raiton no Yoroi continuously 'activates' his synapses as a counter to genjutsu.

However I wouldn't extend this idea to Tsukuyomi. Minato would have to avoid eye contact and perception with his speed there.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats what I am not sure of.
> 
> It could be that KCM amps up stats to a default value, instead of multiplying them.
> 
> Its like X for everyone, give or take.



I highly doubt that. Seems more like a multiplier. There'd be no point to it if it wasn't. 



> Actually we don't know if it was a necessity. It was more like he caught him and it was a good opportunity to cast it.
> Unless A was moving around the field with his max speed all the time, which he wasn't, I don't understand why he can't be caught by a genjutsu.



If he could've used it on him without doing that then I see no reason to even grab him. A had to be restrained just so Madara could entrap him.



> He actually didn't say that.



Yes he has. ([1]) "Me, of all people losing to a sharingan genjutsu". What does that imply? That he's simply too fast to be caught in one. 




> I explained above why people think that.
> There are no double standarts, its just common sense.



And your explanations isn't proof of anything. Fighting Uchiha doesn't mean he has resistance to genjutsu. Has he SHOWN a resistance to genjutsu? No. So either you say genjutsu can affect both Minato and Hashirama or you say it can affect neither. Trying to say it can affect one while not affecting the other is a double standard seeing as there's ZERO proof Hashirama has any kind of genjutsu resistance. 

Fight Uchiha for years isn't proof, especially since we've no idea if they ever even tried to use genjutsu on Hashirama. Minato fought Obito (an uchiha), so let's just conclude Minato has genjutsu resistance. Oh wait.... Obito didn't use genjutsu on him so how do we know? Do you know if the Uchiha Hashirama fought tried genjutsu on him? If not then don't even bother replying. 

Like I said, double standards. You Itachi fans love them. 



> Thats what you think. I gave my reasoning above.



And as I've already said, your reasoning is lol worthy. 



> I don't know what to say to you...
> 
> I think you are just a bit mad that Itachi > your Fave.



Why would I be mad when Minato's currently far more powerful?


----------



## uchiha fan3 (May 23, 2013)

I dont see why anybody thinks minato would rape itachi. you cant pretend Tsukuyomi is not a factor. and Minato has no answer for susano'o


----------



## uchiha fan3 (May 23, 2013)

Jiraiya better than itachi ? please leave this thread. Jiraiya stands no chance against amtaterasu or susano'o


----------



## uchiha fan3 (May 23, 2013)

Jiraiya better than itachi ? please leave this thread. Jiraiya stands no chance against amtaterasu or susano'o


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2013)

mmm So a lot of new members of Itachi's fans, just to give him more votes. Mmm I see. @.@


----------



## Meruem (May 23, 2013)

uchiha fan3 said:


> I dont see why anybody thinks minato would rape itachi. you cant pretend Tsukuyomi is not a factor. and Minato has no answer for susano'o



Minato would never get hit by the Totsuka, he is too fast.  He can also teleport Itachi out of Susano'o.  Tsukuyomi is Itachi's best bet here but I don't think he will catch Minato in it personally.


----------



## Doge (May 23, 2013)

uchiha fan3 said:


> I dont see why anybody thinks minato would rape itachi. you cant pretend Tsukuyomi is not a factor. and Minato has no answer for susano'o



He wouldn't need to look into Itachi's eyes.  Thus, no Tsukuyomi.  

And he beats Susanoo by either using KCM powered Rasengans, outlasting it, or going up through the ground.  Because Itachi has no feats of a Susanoo with feat, and since the feat nazis are only present on Itachi's side, he doesn't get the benefit of having them.


----------



## Ƶero (May 23, 2013)

uchiha fan3 said:


> I dont see why anybody thinks minato would rape itachi. you cant pretend Tsukuyomi is not a factor. and Minato has no answer for susano'o



Itachi is never catching the fastest character in a Tsukiyomi. If he tries he leaves himself open to being one shotted.

Minato teleports Susano'o into the ocean. gg


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 23, 2013)

uchiha fan3 said:


> Jiraiya better than itachi ? please leave this thread. Jiraiya stands no chance against amtaterasu or susano'o


He has counters for both. Jiraiya and Itachi are equals, as Kishimoto said and Itachi's own words. Hell Itachi even was wary of senjutsu...now what does Jiraiya have? Oh right, Sage Mode!


----------



## Lurko (May 23, 2013)

Minato takes this one.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He has counters for both. Jiraiya and Itachi are equals, as Kishimoto said and Itachi's own words. Hell Itachi even was wary of senjutsu...now what does Jiraiya have? Oh right, Sage Mode!



 what counters does jiraiya have to tsukiyomi, amatarasu, or sword of totsuka, don't worry I'll wait


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 23, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> what counters does jiraiya have to tsukiyomi, amatarasu, or sword of totsuka, don't worry I'll wait


Tsukuyomi: completely avoid eye contact using the sensing barrier Jiraiya has.

Amaterasu: seals it, avoids it since even Hebi Sasuke without using a Shunshin could avoid Itachi's.

Sword of Totsuka: dodges it.

What counters does Itachi have for Yomi Numa, Gamarinsho, or Jiraiya's other techniques?

Seriously, the manga and Kishimoto *made it clear*, Jiraiya and Itachi are equals.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsukuyomi: completely avoid eye contact using the sensing barrier Jiraiya has.
> 
> Amaterasu: seals it, avoids it since even Hebi Sasuke without using a Shunshin could avoid Itachi's.
> 
> ...



Avoids looking at itachi's eyes only to be lit on fire, or take a first class trip vacation in the bottle.


Rolflmaooooo   , are you seriously suggesting jiraiya could react to amatarasu by pulling out a blank scroll, and draw the correct seals on it and then Attempt to seal amatarasu all before it tags him?

Curse seal boost speed, not to mention base sasuke was faster then base jiraiya, and this point is silly as sasuke was still tagged

So jiraiaya will dodge totsuka all while avoiding eye contact 

Where was his amazing sensory when pain decided to shove six rods up his exhaust pipe?

Jiraiya easily loses to anyone of itachi ms techniques don't be silly.



Mirror of yata maybe? Or just outright one shot jiraiya and force the technique to dispel all together?

Kishi also made it clear itachi was a "liar" you keep holding on to outdated statements just to justify your clear bias toward  itachi.



As for this thread let the minato fans have there moment and simply wait on the feats to finish this debate, we can't blame them for being amped that there fav character just got a significant power boost.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 23, 2013)

Grim got ya'll against the fence.


----------



## Legend777 (May 23, 2013)

Before this chapter , it was a 50-50 based on Minato's limited showing .


*Spoiler*: __ 



With the latest powerup I am not sure how this is even debatable . KCM Minato should be able to stomp Itachi .


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 23, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Avoids looking at itachi's eyes only to be lit on fire, or take a first class trip vacation in the bottle.


What part of sensing barrier do you not understand?



> Rolflmaooooo   , are you seriously suggesting jiraiya could react to amatarasu by pulling out a blank scroll, and draw the correct seals on it and then Attempt to seal amatarasu all before it tags him?
> 
> Curse seal boost speed, not to mention base sasuke was faster then base jiraiya, and this point is silly as sasuke was still tagged
> 
> So jiraiaya will dodge totsuka all while avoiding eye contact


Jiraiya and Sasuke are on the SAME TIER OF SPEED, both have a 4.5. And you know what Sasuke did to avoid Amaterasu? He just RAN. No special speed, no shunshin, no nothing.;

Hell, Itachi gives clear signals to using Amaterasu too, so a smoke bomb to obscure his vision is also a valid counter.


> Where was his amazing sensory when pain decided to shove six rods up his exhaust pipe?


You do realize the barrier was long since DOWN by then? 


> Jiraiya easily loses to anyone of itachi ms techniques don't be silly.


No, he doesn't. Kishimoto gave Jiraiya counters, gave Jiraiya Sage Mode (which has shown to be Mangekyo Sharingan's equal several times) and even Itachi admitted the best he could do is a stalemate.




> Mirror of yata maybe? Or just outright one shot jiraiya and force the technique to dispel all together?


Yata Mirror doesn't appear under Itachi. And Itachi isn't one-shotting anything.


> Kishi also made it clear itachi was a "liar" you keep holding on to outdated statements just to justify your clear bias toward  itachi.


...Kishimoto made it clear that Kisame knew Itachi's true allegiance, hence why they were paired. And It was Itachi THINKING of it.

Itachi isn't that strong, so stop bashing Jiraiya.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 23, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What part of sensing barrier do you not understand?
> 
> 
> Jiraiya and Sasuke are on the SAME TIER OF SPEED, both have a 4.5. And you know what Sasuke did to avoid Amaterasu? He just RAN. No special speed, no shunshin, no nothing.;
> ...



The detection barrier isn't anywhere naruto's or kabuto's sage sensing please don't make me point out the obvious, ma still had to look in the direction of the chameleon to hit him after she located it.


Both have a 4.5 but feats beg to differ, not only that but sasuke was still hit, so what is your point.


Lol no, jiraiya won't reach in his pocket and throw a smoke bomb all before itachi can blink, stop being silly.


Already addressed this see above.




Outdated statement. You know what was also said? Pain said if he found out his secret earlier jiraiya could of win, but what rational person actually believes that?



When your only defense is a statement that is outdated and also came from the mouth of somebody who was known to lie to protect the same village his would be opponent  came for you basically concede to my point.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (May 23, 2013)

kresh said:


> He wouldn't need to look into Itachi's eyes.  Thus, no Tsukuyomi.
> 
> *And he beats Susanoo by either using KCM powered Rasengans*, outlasting it, or going up through the ground.  Because Itachi has no feats of a Susanoo with feat, and since the feat nazis are only present on Itachi's side, he doesn't get the benefit of having them.



I seriously hope that you are joking with this nonsense....


----------



## BringerOfCarnage (May 23, 2013)

Itachi and Minato were near equals before KCM IMO.

With KCM however, Minato is comfortably stronger.

However, if this is _Edo_ Itachi vs Edo Minato, speaking strictly feat-wise, it seems that nothing short of Shiki Fuujin would put Edo Itachi down.

*Final verdict:* Kishi gave Minato KCM pretty much outta nowhere... We get the message.
Minato wins.

*Zombie droning voice* Hail Minato. GOAT


----------



## Doge (May 23, 2013)

KeyofMiracles said:


> I seriously hope that you are joking with this nonsense....



How would KCM NOT empower his Rasengan, you know, the one that made a very small crater against Obito?

Heck, if his Rasengan can't be empowered by KCM mode, he may as well just punch him.


----------



## Dr. White (May 23, 2013)

Kirin isn't being matched by an Rasengan variant barring FRS, and even that would not have destroyed the small mountain Kirin did, Naruto would need half a dozen or so to accomplish the feat.

I would say TBB: Rasengan would do the trick, but Obito canonically tanked the attack with just his war mask. Susano >> War Mask.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (May 23, 2013)

kresh said:


> How would KCM NOT empower his Rasengan, you know, the one that made a very small crater against Obito?
> 
> Heck, if his Rasengan can't be empowered by KCM mode, he may as well just punch him.



Obviously not what I was referring to. I was referring to you saying KCM Rasengans to beat Susanoo.


----------



## Rocky (May 23, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Grim got ya'll against the fence.




I think I'm gonna stop. Debating Itachi against Grimm is like talking to a tree.

54 to 17? What the point in going in circles...


----------



## Elite Uchiha (May 23, 2013)

Lol, Itachi would get blitzed by Base Minato. KCM would rape 

This is coming from a legit Itachi fan.


----------



## Kanki (May 23, 2013)

I don't think this weeks chapter really changes anything. Minato using BM is only something he can use as an edo tensei. If you're including that then you might as well include both characters being a zombie as well, otherwise you're being too bias towards Minato and giving him an extra ability.

That being said, Minato still wins, usually.


----------



## Okodi (May 23, 2013)

Minato would win the battle of Edos' easily since he has acces to half of Kurama's chakra enhance all his skills and giving him more *power.*

While alive, Minato will once again come out on top. He possesses barriers and sensing giving him great battle field awareness. And unlike Orochimaru, Minato respects his opponents and isn't the type that would let himself get hit to and he *does not lack mobility* like Nagato did *(aka No Totsuka one shots).*

When it comes to speed they are both known to be fast in terms of *"combat speed"*. Itachi was implied to be a "Matrix" character by Black Zetsu. Though Itachi had used Tsukiyomi and was ill, it was Black Zetsu (Madara's will) making the comment. The speed Itachi comes from him being mentored by Shunshin no Shisui.

Though this won't be enough against Minato, considering he moves between places faster than Ei. Minato's reaction speed is greater than the Sharingan's speed. Itachi will only be able to anticipate X amount of time where Minato will appear on the field as Killer Bee showed and this was also due to Killer Bee seeing Ei getting attacked in third person.

Minato's great knowledge of seals may devastate Itachi with some chakra disturbing seal, similar to Jiraya's and Orochimaru's 5 element seal. Though I must admit that it is unclear if that would work considering that *Susanoo is one owns entity of chakra* compared to a *jin and its bijuu*. But as I stated it would be some kind of *variation.* 

A great example of a kind of seal that could work on Susanoo would be the  that Kakashi placed on Sasuke to surpress the "Evil" within Sasuke's cursed seal. As has been shown with Kurama jins, one can "feel evil" and I argue that Minato may have a stronger seal that could surpress Susanoo as it is an *evil entity* regardless of the good nature of the user that is fueled by *hatred* and *anger* and is actually *"evil".*




So to make it short, Minato wins due to;

him having superior speed
rarely using hand seals
fuuinjutsus
sensing and barriers


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2013)

> Minato would win the battle of Edos' easily since he has acces to half of Kurama's chakra enhance all his skills and giving him more power.



Even while he was alive he still have a access to Kurama's chakra before he died.


> Though I must admit that it is unclear if that would work considering that Susanoo is one owns entity of chakra compared to a jin and its bijuu. But as I stated it would be some kind of variation.



He does not need any seal for the Susanoo, he already show he can teleproted anything. Even without
teleporting WITH them! Minato teleported the TBB and its pure chakra, so why he wont be able to teleport
the Susanoo as well?


----------



## eyeknockout (May 23, 2013)

i'm an itachi fan but i still love this thread.

you know why? because it's only a matter of time before we get a full uchiha massacre flashback.

obito will be talking to kakashi then he'll be like " kakashi...it turns out rin had a sister all along, if i knew that i would have protected her with all my power, but by the time i found out she was already fatally wounded. i couldn't stop him...the man who's power has no limits, the one who has to hold back just to avoid killing everyone around him...the great demon king itachi"

then we get a great flashback of itachi showing the "true power of the sharingan" with like 3 new legendary items like the bracelet of supreme stamina, the kunai of flight and the hairband of storms. 

if you thought minato gaining BM mode out of nowhere was unexpected. just wait till kishi's other golden boy becomes relevant again (which he will)


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2013)

11-Year Old Itachi isn't going to show more than his Edo self. 


Itachi already got his Edo asspull, Izanami.


----------



## eyeknockout (May 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> 11-Year Old Itachi isn't going to show more than his Edo self.
> 
> 
> Itachi already got his Edo asspull, Izanami.



"itachi isn't going to defeat kabuto"

"itachi isn't going to break edo tensei"

"itachi isn't going to be able to last in a fight against naruto and bee"

"itachi isn't going to defeat edo nagato"

"itachi can't compare to EMS sasuke, sasuke will defeat kabuto"

i see, yup it seems like itachi has never done anything people didn't think he could. obviously itachi never proves people wrong, i might as well just give up hope because all these "itachi cants" have been so right all these years. who am i to believe itachi would do something unexpected? 

we just got hype that itachi at the age of 7 was hokage level in mindset. that is basically telling you that he will be getting so much hype later in the manga.

even if he doesn't...i would be wrong...but the manga would be done anyway so who cares?


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2013)

For the sake of Itachi's character, you best hope he doesn't return after his oh so grand exit. I'm also not sure why we would even get a massacre flashback.


----------



## eyeknockout (May 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> For the sake of Itachi's character, you best hope he doesn't return after his oh so grand exit. I'm also not sure why we would even get a massacre flashback.



orochimaru makes the handseals

hashirama: the air is changing, is the planet and the heavens finally crashing into eachother??

tobirama: why do i feel so scared right now, i think i wet myself

hiruzen: this aura...can it be....the last time i felt this aura it was like 15 years ago. it can only be one person...no, it can only be one King.

sasuke: why is my EMS aching?? 

sakura: why do i feel so insignificant everytime i show up anywhere

juubi: ARRGHRARA it's the solo king

a susanoo hand stretches from the heavens and tames the juubi by patting him on the head. juubi turns to madara, and attacks.

orochimaru: it seems i was genjutsud into reviving him by a dormant genjutsu placed on kabuto that transferred to me after i absorbed kabuto power. i never thought you could plan things through that well....Itachi Uchiha

itachi: i came back...to test my capabilities, sasuke...

sasuke: yes itachi

itachi: "tsukiyomi" haha now watch your whole clan die right in front of you again hahaa 

sasuke: nooo 

itachi dissapears into the heavens guarded by a winged dragon wielding 2 legendary items

naruto: sooo, you still going to protect konoha sasuke???

sasuke: My clan, my revenge i will kill everybody 

karin: that's the sauce i fell in love with


----------



## crisler (May 24, 2013)

i don't think kcm should change the outcome of their battle...

not because minato isn't stronger than before but because i don't think their battle would end as a chakra reserve contest

it was always a battle between whos' ohko attack would hit first. even with kcm, minato would die from tsukuyomi. even without kcm, minato would avoid amaterasu. 

even with base minato, if itachi was slashed by the ftg + kunai combo itachis' dead. 

so the difference hasn't changed a lot really...because, kcm grants minato sensing but amaterasu was never the important factor between them. besides, minato doesn't have access to partner method here either (as kyuubi is inside naruto, not minato)

if minato had uchiha body and just ms, he'd be weaker overall than kcm mode, but he'd have higher chance against (in fact he'd stomp) itachi. that's how i see it.

the same reason why i believe no matter how strong naruto becomes, sasuke will have a better chance against itachi thanks to his eyes and the body despite naruto having a powerful body (uzumaki, related to younger brother)


----------



## narutoish (May 24, 2013)

is this living itachi or edo? If its living then  since op 
says no restrictions, koto could finish minato. If its edo itachi vs edo minato, then  KCM dosn`t  change much seeing as how minato as already fast with FTG. Still it doesn't give him any resistance to genjutsu so itachi would still have the edge, especially  looking at taking in account that minato can only finish in a draw. So this week doesn't give minato anything he didn't already have. After this week, more people are in minato's favor but their arguments are still the same proving that this week changed nothing, and in my opinion, itachistils wins more times then not.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I highly doubt that. Seems more like a multiplier. There'd be no point to it if it wasn't.


We'll find out soon enough.




> If he could've used it on him without doing that then I see no reason to even grab him. A had to be restrained just so Madara could entrap him.


It could be a million things. It wasn't stated, so it is just your interpretation.




> Yes he has. (White Rage) "Me, of all people losing to a sharingan genjutsu". What does that imply? That he's simply too fast to be caught in one.


LOL.
That doesn't mean he cannot be caught by genjutsu. 
I repeat. A never said such thing.




> And your explanations isn't proof of anything.


They are what we call common sense. You need  to be introduced to the subject it seems.


> Fighting Uchiha doesn't mean he has resistance to genjutsu.


Yes it does, or he has ways to get around genjutsu, like avoiding eye contact or some other shit. 




> Has he SHOWN a resistance to genjutsu? No. So either you say genjutsu can affect both Minato and Hashirama or you say it can affect neither. Trying to say it can affect one while not affecting the other is a double standard seeing as there's ZERO proof Hashirama has any kind of genjutsu resistance.


He was shown fighting an Uchiha once and it was just highlights of his big battle.
But we know for a fact  that he battled Uchiha his whole life.
He is also a genjutsu user himself and his on a completely different tier than Minato.
And he is a long range fighter.

He has relatively good chances against genjutsu than Minato does. 
But if it hurts you so much to admit that your darling Minato may succumb to genjutsu, well you can always PM me about it 




> Fight Uchiha for years isn't proof, especially since we've no idea if they ever even tried to use genjutsu on Hashirama.


Its common sense. 


> Minato fought Obito (an uchiha), so let's just conclude Minato has genjutsu resistance. Oh wait.... Obito didn't use genjutsu on him so how do we know


?
Umm we've seen on panel that Obito didn't use genjutsu on him.
Obito isn't much of a genjutsu user anyways, he only used genjutsu after he subdued his opponent(s).



> Do you know if the Uchiha Hashirama fought tried genjutsu on him? If not then don't even bother replying.


I see common sense is your enemy.



> Like I said, double standards. You Itachi fans love them.


Well either you are not very smart or you like to troll. Eitherway, I accept your concession.





> And as I've already said, your reasoning is lol worthy.


Well at least I have a reasoning. You on the other hand don't 
Come back when you have one.





> Why would I be mad when Minato's currently far more powerful?


Insecurity hunts down insecure people all their lives. You have to take it up to God.


----------



## ? (May 24, 2013)

lol I remember this poll use to be so close, and now look 


 If this fight was so close before, then it should be obvious Minato wins after  gaining such a significant power boost. Look at what KCM did for base Naruto, his speed went from average to greater than Ei's top speed. What do you think a boost of this nature will do to Minato who was already one of the best in his base form?


----------



## Ƶero (May 24, 2013)

Why isn't this locked yet? I thought stomp threads weren't allowed.


----------



## X Spectrum (May 24, 2013)

Without knowledge of Itachi's eye prowess, Minato loses.

With knowledge, Minato wins.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 24, 2013)

The only hype I think itachi will receive is maybe a further explanation on his legendary items and I believe Susano durability will be hyped in the next few coming chapters.


As far as minato Kcm mode, I think naruto's Kcm mode will still be superior, based off the fact that naruto has access to Kage level soloing shadow clones and more dangerous rasengon variants.


Minato's I believe will boost him up in power, but I doubt it would make him faster, it may make his shushin faster but his FTG IMO is probably going to remain the pinnacle of all speed in the manga.


----------



## Velocity (May 24, 2013)

Yeah, this thread isn't ezackly balanced.


----------

