# Weakest being in comics who can take out beerus?



## King Diablo (Oct 15, 2015)

What's the weakest character needed to take him out in marvel or dc.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

You should really hold off from making this thread....


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Skyfather level or Transcendent character with some hax.


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## Sherlōck (Oct 15, 2015)

Rename the thread to " Weakest being in comics who can take out Whis? "


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## Rookie7 (Oct 15, 2015)

According to the thread question: TOAA. Now close this thread since there is no one stronger than TOAA or Presense in comics.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 15, 2015)

Strongest? Something omnipotent.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Rookie7 said:


> According to the thread question: TOAA. Now close this thread since there is no one stronger than TOAA or Presense in comics.



Doom bitchslaps them into an inferior coma.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 15, 2015)

superman of course


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## Rookie7 (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Doom bitchslaps them into an inferior coma.


No. You can't be TOAA if there is someone somewhere who can be on your level. There is no one who will ever be close because if there is someone who can be close than TOAA is not TOAA. If you ever see TOAA losing in comics it just means that there is no true TOAA in that comic or verse and just a random omnipotent. Presense on the other hand did struggle against GEB, but Presense never called itself The one above all also.


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## King Diablo (Oct 15, 2015)

Fixed the title.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 15, 2015)

its still superman


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## Haro (Oct 15, 2015)

That lock tho


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 15, 2015)

It's coming, just wait for it.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

Limitless Superman solos fiction. 

there, now the thread can be locked.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm actually content to let this thread go for the time being. It might be useful for educational purposes though I'd prefer Whis be replaced by Beerus since Whis hasn't actually done anything of note in Super.


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## King Diablo (Oct 15, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I'm actually content to let this thread go for the time being. It might be useful for educational purposes though I'd prefer Whis be replaced by Beerus since Whis hasn't actually done anything of note in Super.



Alright I'll change it to beerus.

EDIT: Could you fix the main title for me. There may be a way for me to do it but I don't know how.  lol sry


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 15, 2015)

Already on it


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## Island (Oct 15, 2015)

Squirrel Girl


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## Bernkastel (Oct 15, 2015)

Island said:


> Squirrel Girl



Didn't you see the title changed? it's not strongest anymore


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## Deer Lord (Oct 15, 2015)

What speed are DBZ god-tiers at currently?


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

superman?


idk doesnt he still lack in speed to take the man of feels down?


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## Cooler (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> superman?
> 
> 
> idk doesnt he still lack in speed to take the man of feels down?



Doesn't Superman lack the DC to take Beerus down? 



Beerus should be billions of times light low end. But Superman's has feats that obviously spit on that. Not sure what his accepted speed is.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 15, 2015)

Isn't Beerus quadrillions c now?


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## Cooler (Oct 15, 2015)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Isn't Beerus quadrillions c now?



Arguable for sure. 

In the Manga accompaniment Champa and his attendant showed off some mean speed as well, Elder Kaioshin remarked they could be on the otherside of the universe in the time it took for the Z fighters to gather the dragon ball.

However big the DB universe is it's pretty clear that the God Tiers are capable of crossing those distances in fairly quick times.


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## Imagine (Oct 15, 2015)

So how many more Beerus threads is it gonna take before Beerus vs Marvel/DC is banned?


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## Cooler (Oct 15, 2015)

Imagine said:


> So how many more Beerus threads is it gonna take before Beerus vs Marvel/DC is banned?



Well there's been no flaming yet...


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## Katsuargi (Oct 15, 2015)

If we're using the Map? Yeah, low quadrillions of C. (1.62~ (edge of the DBZ universe, half way between Kaio and Earth, to earth) - 5.78~ (Kaio's to Earth).

If you toss out the map you're dealing with them coming from the edge of a real shaped Universe which I'd imagine is slightly further from Earth than 11.2-40.2 billion light years.


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## Cooler (Oct 15, 2015)

I also find it unlikely Whis (the fastest in the universe) is slower than Saiyan space pods which can travel from Namek to Earth in a week...


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Cooler said:


> Doesn't Superman lack the DC to take Beerus down?
> 
> 
> 
> Beerus should be billions of times light low end. But Superman's has feats that obviously spit on that. Not sure what his accepted speed is.



but he does have haxes that should affect?


lazer guided heat vision lobotomy, or vibrations and shit??


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## Cooler (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> but he does have haxes that should affect?
> 
> 
> lazer guided heat vision lobotomy, or vibrations and shit??



Beerus was able to nullify an explosion that was going to destroy the DB universe. He should be able to nullify the heat vision. 

Has Superman used vibrations on someone with Beerus durability before? Multi galaxy+.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Cooler said:


> Beerus was able to nullify an explosion that was going to destroy the DB universe. He should be able to nullify the heat vision.
> 
> Has Superman used vibrations on someone with Beerus durability before? Multi galaxy+.



heat vision should bybass dura tho...atleast thats how it has worked before..


as for vibrations, he could just phase in his fist into beerus skull and late it materialize?


imo. maybe flash would be better choice since he has more haxes than supes...or martian....


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## Iwandesu (Oct 15, 2015)

> heat vision should bybass dura tho...atleast thats how it has worked before..


wot ?
unless this is some reallyt exoteric heat vision with some actual hax in it no it shouldn't


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## Cooler (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> heat vision should bybass dura tho...atleast thats how it has worked before..
> 
> 
> as for vibrations, he could just phase in his fist into beerus skull and late it materialize?
> ...



Verging on a NLF with the heat vision and vibrations.

Most likely scenario is Beerus KO'ing him with a huge AoE ki blast or even physically depending on speed.


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## Haro (Oct 15, 2015)

Post crisis superman's heat vision has fucked with space and time before on multiple occasion.


Also fuck off with superman vs DBZ


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## Haro (Oct 15, 2015)

Imagine said:


> So how many more Beerus threads is it gonna take before Beerus vs Marvel/DC is banned?



Hopefully this one


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## Atem (Oct 15, 2015)

Nate Grey.

Mostly due to his overwhelming amount of esoteric abilities.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> Post crisis superman's heat vision has fucked with space and time before on multiple occasion.
> 
> 
> Also fuck off with superman vs DBZ



its dc versus beerus so its viable..


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

Superman still beats Beerus and Whis at least with sundip though.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Superman still beats Beerus and Whis at least with sundip though.




thats what we were trying to find out here tho...idk myself actually..he still beats both of them in speed that much is for sure. but outside of that..i think he doesnt have enough juice to actually hurt em.


haxes would be his best choice...


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

Actually Beerus and Whis completely clap Superman. You would need Prime 1 Million level of sundip for 15,000 years to get on their level and even then it's a toss up. 

When a character turns into MFTL+ and Universe level, there's not much outside of Skyfather level characters that can kill them. Outside of hax, of course. 

At least Beerus has energy nullification, so taking him out with big fuck off AOE isn't going to be a thing. Plus we're not really sure if his energy nullification can nullify a person's energy, or only their attacks. 

I'm just going to go with the obvious answer of Odin.


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## eaebiakuya (Oct 15, 2015)

While i dont agree with those new Beerus stats, he should have power enough to beat Superman. At least he can spam SS+ attacks without problem and is not that slower (map calc is BS).

Martian Manhunter could beat him using TP. Thor could beat him with a Godblast, trying to suck his vital energy or even BFR to another dimension.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Actually Beerus and Whis completely clap Superman. You would need Prime 1 Million level of sundip for 15,000 years to get on their level and even then it's a toss up.
> 
> When a character turns into MFTL+ and Universe level, there's not much outside of Skyfather level characters that can kill them. Outside of hax, of course.
> 
> ...



wasnt beerus galaxy+ and only couple of times ftl?


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## eaebiakuya (Oct 15, 2015)

He is confirmed to be billions of times FTL i think.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 15, 2015)

he was calced in the billons of times c
and map calc is indeed bs imo
he also threated to empty the universe with a couple of shockwaves in a way he is anywhere from galaxy+ to multigalaxy+


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> he was calced in the billons of times c
> and map calc is indeed bs imo
> he also threated to empty the universe with a couple of shockwaves in a way he is anywhere from galaxy+ to multigalaxy+



Thought that Beerus punches were multi-galaxy+ 

And his energy ball was universe level, since Whis stated it would destroy the universe?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 15, 2015)

Surprised the mods let this go. 

Anyway, Beerus' current stats are multi-galaxy and billions of times c. So pretty much a skyfather level character is needed to contend with him or a transcendent with good hax.

The strongest versions of Supes can still win like 1 million, Cosmic Armor, etc.

Edit: I forgot to add DB Supes. Nothing beats limitless after all.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Surprised the mods let this go.
> 
> Anyway, Beerus' current stats are multi-galaxy and billions of times c. So pretty much a skyfather level character is needed to contend with him or a transcendent with good hax.



Multi-Galaxy and billions of times c is the standard, while some people have him pegged at Universe and Quadrillion C's, since the map was redone to fit for our universe. 



> The strongest versions of Supes can still win like 1 million, Cosmic Armor, etc.



Pretty much. I still wonder what Marvel character could do it. 

Void Sentry? Odin Force Thor?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Multi-Galaxy and billions of times c is the standard, while some people have him pegged at Universe and Quadrillion C's, since the map was redone to fit for our universe.




We always go with the low end, so multi-galaxy is what we have. And as others have said, the map calc just doesn't fly. 



> Pretty much. I still wonder what Marvel character could do it.
> 
> Void Sentry? Odin Force Thor?



Don't really know. Don't read a lot of Marvel. DC is my home.  I just know the general tiers in Marvel and what you're required to have (in terms of DC, Durability, Hax, Speed, etc.) to fit into those tiers.


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## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Multi-Galaxy and billions of times c is the standard, while some people have him pegged at Universe and Quadrillion C's, since the map was redone to fit for our universe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe the celestials death sentry . But those i know for sure are franklin Richards galalictus juggernaut with full power of the gem. Other characters not to sure about black bolt vulcan


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## God Movement (Oct 15, 2015)

Err.. without the map calc you don't have billions of c either. I don't know what you have because there's no way to get a distance without it. It comes from the map calc. The quadrillion calc is simply the map + assuming a normal universe size. Don't see the problem people have with it in all honesty. If the top of the globe wasn't the size of the bottom of the globe it wouldn't have been drawn that way.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 15, 2015)

Void Sentry can do it I think

he has regeneration to survive being vaporized and enough hax to take out molecule man.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 15, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Err.. without the map calc you don't have billions of c either. I don't know what you have because there's no way to get a distance without it. It comes from the map calc. The quadrillion calc is simply the map + assuming a normal universe size. Don't see the problem people have with it in all honesty. If the top of the globe wasn't the size of the bottom of the globe it wouldn't have been drawn that way.



Thought the billions of c was the Beerus calc where his nebula was used as the basis. The map one was the Whis calc IIRC. The one NM did.


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## God Movement (Oct 15, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Thought the billions of c was the Beerus calc where his nebula was used as the basis. The map one was the Whis calc IIRC. The one NM did.



Oh you're referring to Willyvereb's rough calc.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 15, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Oh you're referring to Willyvereb's rough calc.




Yea that's the one I was referring to as it seemed like a better option than the map calc. The map calc always seemed a bit sketchy to me due to the fact that the Other World seems to be in another dimension or some shit.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't think the map is bullshit. Sure heaven along Kaio's planet and the Kaioshin planet exists in different dimensions but those dimensions still exist within the DB universe, and people like Whis can fly there. The purpose of the map is to establish where exactly they are located in relation to the rest of the universe, otherwise there is no point to it.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 15, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Surprised the mods let this go.



I let it go in hopes it'd be educational about hax and stop the parade of let's put Dragon Ball against universe level reality warpers threads because that's just not good for anyone. Not sure it's working exactly as I had hoped.


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## Huey Freeman (Oct 15, 2015)

The Flash speed blitz 

Also quadrillions C Beerus


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## Blocky (Oct 15, 2015)

Since this thread is allowed.

?Could Beerus resist a few hax from other Marvel or DC characters


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

so should i take this thread as a sign beerus needs his stats sorted out before he is used in fights?


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## Imagine (Oct 15, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I let it go *in hopes* it'd be educational about hax and stop the parade of let's put Dragon Ball against universe level reality warpers threads because that's just not good for anyone. Not sure it's working exactly as I had hoped.




UD pls


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Okay let's take this Superman debate somewhere else. 1) It's a meta topic 2) it's got nothing to do with this topic.



i think it would be better to just close it down b0ss....


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Okay let's take this Superman debate somewhere else. 1) It's a meta topic 2) it's got nothing to do with this topic.



Okay then UD.


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

Anyways, like XImpossibruX said, Odin can easily take on Beerus and Whis with his universe leveling and hax.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Again it really depends on whose faster than him and has hax. 

Ultron's probably the weakest character that can potentially beat him due to mind-fucking and assimilation hax.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

derailing here...


anyway. how about flash? He should have enough speed and haxes to bybass dura and aoe attacks..


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> derailing here...
> 
> 
> anyway. how about flash? He should have enough speed and haxes to bybass dura and aoe attacks..



Pretty sure most of The Flashes could just BFR him. Unless that rocket travelling feat really is inter dimensional.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Pretty sure most of The Flashes could just BFR him. Unless that rocket travelling feat really is inter dimensional.



 we really should get beerus stats figured out proper...

so anybody weaker than flash being able to do it?


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> we really should get beerus stats figured out proper...
> 
> so anybody weaker than flash being able to do it?



That's why were settling with low end. Billions of c and Multi galaxy level (509 PetaFoe) for now.

specifically in DC?


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> That's why were settling with low end. Billions of c and Multi galaxy level (509 PetaFoe) for now.
> 
> specifically in DC?



in everything...

as far as i have seen beerus and goku both seem to fluctate between galaxy+dc and dura to universe+ dc and dura with either ftl or mftl or massively mftl combat speed...


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> in everything...
> 
> as far as i have seen beerus and goku both seem to fluctate between galaxy+dc and dura to universe+ dc and dura with either ftl or mftl or massively mftl combat speed...



Goku and Beerus are Multi-Galaxy Level+, with at least 12 billion c in speed.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Goku and Beerus are Multi-Galaxy Level+, with at least 12 billion c in speed.



c??


never heard that term before.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Goku and Beerus are Multi-Galaxy Level+, with at least 12 billion c in speed.



Actually its a little over 3 billion. 

There's all sorts of characters that can beat them again most of which at this point with hax.


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> c??
> 
> 
> never heard that term before.



c = the speed of light


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Actually its a little over 3 billion.
> 
> There's all sorts of characters that can beat them again most of which at this point with hax.



Thought Willyvereb's calculation put them at 12 to 120 billion c.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> c = the speed of light



aight. thanks for the info-.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Thought Willyvereb's calculation put them at 12 to 120 billion c.



That was just Whis I think.


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## puolakanaho (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Err.. Celestial vs Beerus?




wouldnt that be an overkill? 


idk..how does celestials compare to flash?


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## Hamaru (Oct 15, 2015)

Island said:


> Squirrel Girl



Wow... we aren't supposed to name people who can solo the DBverse


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## King Kakarot (Oct 15, 2015)

jesus christ take your superman shit elsewhere


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 15, 2015)

Go here for Superman/Imperiex, thank you


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 15, 2015)

I kinda feel like I killed the thread now


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## Tonathan100 (Oct 15, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I kinda feel like I killed the thread now



That refined debate off-topic argument was the only thing keeping it alive.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 15, 2015)

Hamaru said:


> Wow... we aren't supposed to name people who can solo the DBverse


Beating beerus is = soloing DBverse tho.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 15, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> idk..how does celestials compare to flash?



Uh Franklin Richards, who as a kid made a universe and stuffed it in his closet, is often compared directly to Celestials. I seriously don't think you should be trying to put Dragon Ball against people who can hold a universe in their hands. That's simply a level of hax Dragon Ball has no defense for.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

Sorry about the derailment. 

Anyway, the weakest character to beat Beerus in DC would be...... Parallax? 

Weakest for Marvel would be a Celestial, probably.


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 15, 2015)

Mary Jane Watson? Aunt May stomps just a little bit *too* hard after all 


*Spoiler*: __


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## Imagine (Oct 15, 2015)

What the fuck


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Sorry about the derailment.
> 
> Anyway, the weakest character to beat Beerus in DC would be...... *Parallax*?
> 
> Weakest for Marvel would be a *Celestial*, probably.



 

No simply being faster with hax would be enough.


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## Dudebro (Oct 15, 2015)

If it's the weakest then it's speed and really good hax that's taking him down.  

There are a fuck ton of heralds with far better speed out there. That should be the first look I imagine.

Can Surfer or someone on his tier do it?


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Dudebro said:


> If it's the weakest then it's speed and really good hax that's taking him down.
> 
> There are a fuck ton of heralds with far better speed out there. That should be the first look I imagine.
> 
> Can Surfer or someone on his tier do it?



Are you seriously asking if Surfer has any hax


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 15, 2015)

Surfer can transmute him

DB characters don't have a good track record against that 

not gonna get into a speed debate though


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## Dudebro (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Are you seriously asking if Surfer has any hax



Hax loses its effectiveness the tougher a dude is unless your working with some form of conceptual or reality bending stuff.

In any other instance "Energy is Energy" becomes a thing. Once a character's durability gets to some stupidly high level where he can laugh at the energy needed to destroy a planet being shoved down his throat you don't need feats relating to assume something like heat or cold based attacks will hurt them for example. It will be the other way around.

Transmutation is tricky. It depends on how its done. If it's like "I'm gonna rip you apart and rebuild you" then you have to overcome the victim's durability obviously. But if it's some weird type of magical "You are a frog because the laws of physics can bite me" type of thing then yeah feats or GTFO


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## xenos5 (Oct 15, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Surfer can transmute him
> 
> DB characters don't have a good track record against that
> 
> not gonna get into a speed debate though



Eh. Beerus could scale to Vegito's level of transmutation resistance. So he could keep his power as whatever object he's transmuted into maybe.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

Dudebro said:


> Hax loses its effectiveness the tougher a dude is unless your working with some form of conceptual or reality bending stuff.
> 
> O



Are you new here? Thats not how it works at all...you have to have shown some form of resistence.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

Doesn't Ki protect them? I mean, Vegito could put up a ki barrier which could protect himself being added to Buu's collective power. There's also the fact that Beerus has God Ki, which is never really explain why it's so different. 

Pure speculation. Everything is subject to change in Super, so might get some Beerus feats of resistance or an in depth analysis on God Ki. Reminds me of Beerus straight out resisting Demigra in Xenoverse, just because he was a "God"


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 15, 2015)

>Beerus VS Silver Surfer debate starting

Oh boy, this will end well. Better pack popcorn for a few days worth


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

I actually always wanted Beerus vs Silver Surfer match up. 

Way better than constantly putting the cat up against Universe+++ levels of character.


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## Hamaru (Oct 15, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Beating beerus is = soloing DBverse tho.





Very true.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Doesn't Ki protect them? I mean, Vegito could put up a ki barrier which could protect himself being added to Buu's collective power. There's also the fact that Beerus has God Ki, which is never really explain why it's so different.
> 
> Pure speculation. Everything is subject to change in Super, so might get some Beerus feats of resistance or an in depth analysis on God Ki. Reminds me of Beerus straight out resisting Demigra in Xenoverse, just because he was a "God"



No, mostly because there's nothing really showing how Buu's absorption works (apparently it only shrinks you and knocks you out.)

Majin Vegeta barely had enough stamina to resist mind control from Babidi whose best feat is broadcasting his thoughts in a planetary range.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> No, mostly because there's nothing really showing how Buu's absorption works (apparently it only shrinks you and knocks you out.)



Adding someones powers, abilities, experiences, mind and clothes is a lot more than just shrinking and knocking someone out. 



> Majin Vegeta barely had enough stamina to resist mind control from Babidi whose best feat is broadcasting his thoughts in a planetary range.



Barely enough stamina? Vegeta let himself go under spell for the power-up then straight up resisted Babidi. Sure there was some grunts, but nothing implies he was exhausted after, seeing as how he fought SSJ2 Goku at full strength. 

Babidi is no slouch though. His magic is capable enough to completely change the battlefield to planets light-years away and teleport people over to different places.


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## Tom Servo (Oct 15, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Adding someones powers, abilities, experiences, mind and clothes is a lot more than just shrinking and knocking someone out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yeah it shrinks them down and absorbs them into his body...Also he doesn't absorb their clothes his clothes change to resemble theirs.

Was that meant to be a a contradiction because Vegeta very clearly was struggling when Babidi was in his head...

That's just teleportation that has nothing to do with telepathy or mind-fucking...


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## xenos5 (Oct 15, 2015)

Does anyone think there were any special circumstances that let Vegito keep his consciousness as a piece of chocolate? Or could it just be his level of power correlating with his resistance which would mean characters more powerful than him like DBS god tiers can also keep their consciousness when transmuted?


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## Dudebro (Oct 15, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Are you new here? Thats not how it works at all...you have to have shown some form of resistence.



Your giving me the impression you haven't been active for the past year or so.

Alot of things we used to consider as hax really aren't anymore...Well they are but not to any huge degree. This is mostly due to the fact that some types of feats will come with others naturally. A guy surviving a punch with enough kinetic energy to turn Asia into dust can pretty much be expected to laugh at any heat energy dished out by your typical nuke for example.

Pretty much if we can measure it then it isn't really hax.



XImpossibruX said:


> Reminds me of Beerus straight out resisting Demigra in Xenoverse, just because he was a "God"



If by resist you mean "Wasn't even remotely effected and played along to draw Demigra out" then yes he resisted it alright.



Vivi Ornitier said:


> >Goku VS Silver Surfer debate starting
> 
> Oh boy, this will end well. Better pack popcorn for a few days worth



Doesn't have to be Surfer. I just used him as an example. Dbz is slow as fuck by herald standards still. Any Herald with some good spacetime or mind/soul hax should be able to put B-Cat down.

Edit: Hold up. Can't Thor just flat out rip people's souls out? That's another candidate if so.


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## Blαck (Oct 16, 2015)

Dudebro said:


> Edit: Hold up. Can't Thor just flat out rip people's souls out? That's another candidate if so.



Haven't seen current Thor try that, might be a classic Thor move. Now Current Adam Warlock on the other hand :ignoramus


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 16, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Was that meant to be a a contradiction because Vegeta very clearly was struggling when Babidi was in his head...



It still didn't exhaust him and he was smiling after. Struggle isn't a word I would use to define that scene.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 16, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> Eh. Beerus could scale to Vegito's level of transmutation resistance. So he could keep his power as whatever object he's transmuted into maybe.



Except Buu is no where near close to Surfer in terms of transmutation and matter manipulation. And he has plenty of other haxes like opening a galaxy wide black hole inside someone and absorbing other's energy and being able to last a bit manipulating other sources of energy like the Crunch which is a universal source of power capable of killing two Abstract level beings.



XImpossibruX said:


> Babidi is no slouch though. His magic is capable enough to completely change the battlefield to planets light-years away and teleport people over to different places.



Uh no he only did that on his spaceship he never did that outside of it otherwise he would have just left earth to terrorize other planets or escape from Buu when he killed him.

Babadi's magic is really not that impressive compared to most people in Marvel and DC


----------



## XImpossibruX (Oct 16, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> Uh no he only did that on his spaceship he never did that outside of it otherwise he would have just left earth to terrorize other planets or escape from Buu when he killed him.



Nothing to do with his ship, it's his crystal ball. When taking his Crystal Ball into account, he's impressive enough. But it was destroyed when Vegeta blew up his ship. 

Still unaffected his telepathy though. 



> Babadi's magic is really *not that impressive  compared to most people in Marvel and DC*



You can literally say that about anything, from any anime. 

It's comics man, they have the most powerful and over the top stuff.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 16, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Nothing to do with his ship, it's his crystal ball. When taking his Crystal Ball into account, he's impressive enough. But it was destroyed when Vegeta blew up his ship.
> 
> Still unaffected his telepathy though.


Since you did not mention him using the Crystal to do that I thought you meant he could transport people over other places and such by himself. Just a slight assumption.




XImpossibruX said:


> You can literally say that about anything, from any anime.


Not really. There are plenty of anime that have Magic users that would be considered impressive, but due to comics like DC and Marvel having characters that cover all the states from wall level to multiverse level they end up making most of them look weak but they have plenty of their own people weak enough they they could expect a good challenge from an anime verse of decent magical power. It's just comics got guys like Classic Strange and PC Fate that would fuck almost all them over(ignoring cosmic gods and abstracts at least) that really end up making most of them look insignificant in comparison.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 16, 2015)

Why the fuck is Goku even being mentioned here when it's about the weakest comic character *Beerus* can defeat?


----------



## shade0180 (Oct 16, 2015)

> *the weakest comic character Beerus can defeat?*



..... Imagine........

reread it please....


----------



## Byrd (Oct 16, 2015)

Void Sentry might do it and naw the Flash is too powerful for Beerus..

Speed steal ftw


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 16, 2015)

The whole from the edge of the universe to x location speed feat is laughable because every speedster in comics has a feat like that. flash has at like 10 instances, so does silver surfer and superman so that feat in of itself isn't all that.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

Byrd said:


> Void Sentry might do it and naw the Flash is too powerful for Beerus..
> 
> Speed steal ftw



so someone stronger than soup. but weaker than flash...manhunter?


does aquaman have the reaction speed to mindrape beerus before he gets turned into a tuna filling in a jill sandwich???? can he even mindrape beerus??


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 16, 2015)

Dudebro said:


> Your giving me the impression you haven't been active for the past year or so.
> 
> Alot of things we used to consider as hax really aren't anymore...Well they are but not to any huge degree. This is mostly due to the fact that some types of feats will come with others naturally. A guy surviving a punch with enough kinetic energy to turn Asia into dust can pretty much be expected to laugh at any heat energy dished out by your typical nuke for example.
> 
> *Pretty much if we can measure it then it isn't really hax.*



Aaaaand you completely lost any form of credibility you were looking for with that one sentence. 



XImpossibruX said:


> It still didn't exhaust him and he was smiling after. Struggle isn't a word I would use to define that scene.



Then you need to look up what that means.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 16, 2015)

I wouldn't bet on aquaman.
MM however is an intagible telepath, he could probably do it too.


----------



## Dudebro (Oct 16, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Aaaaand you completely lost any form of credibility you were looking for with that one sentence.



Coming from a guy no one here takes seriously at all.

Wanna actually give an argument as to why I'm wrong?


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> I wouldn't bet on aquaman.
> MM however is an intagible telepath, he could probably do it too.



MM might be a murder tho...i mean, the only reason we agreed that superman wouldnt beat(well as far as i understood before it descended into a shitstorm) was that he lacked the haxes to bybass beerus durability...MM has almost identical stats to soup with more haxes...


----------



## King Diablo (Oct 16, 2015)

Can people please give serious answers. I see a lot of tentative, or outright spooked to be honest shit going on here.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

King Diablo said:


> Can people please give serious answers. I see a lot of tentative, or outright spooked to be honest shit going on here.



what is it that bothers you?


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2015)

>DB vs Comics

*sigh*


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> >DB vs Comics
> 
> *sigh*



so far it has been civil with only one fledgling shitstorm that was quickly stomped out by the mighty boot of thesaurus..or who the fuck was it again?



still: we are grown menchild, we should be able to discuss these things in a civil and polite order.


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> still: we are *grown menchild*, we should be able to discuss these things in a civil and polite order.



Wait what?


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 16, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> MM might be a murder tho...i mean, the only reason we agreed that superman wouldnt beat(well as far as i understood before it descended into a shitstorm) was that he lacked the haxes to bybass beerus durability...MM has almost identical stats to soup with more haxes...


MM can't harm beerus.
But he has the hax necessary to both survive against him and actually do something to him.

Something that pure flying bricks don't generally have.
Another option is the flash via speedforce dump.

If you want to go unhaxed characters then you'd need to go skyfather for that (although most skyfathers have reality warping to begin with).


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> MM can't harm beerus.
> But he has the hax necessary to both survive against him and actually do something to him.
> 
> Something that pure flying bricks don't generally have.
> ...




thats what i meant when i said mm would be a murder. and flash was already agreed.and as i said: we already agreed supes wouldnt cut it;because despite the speed difference working on his favor, his haxes just arent enough to harm him..but enough about that.


mm,flash,void sentry,thor. anybody weaker than these guys?

captain atom and atom??


----------



## Hachibi (Oct 16, 2015)

How's the weakest one with prep that can do it?


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> How's the weakest one with prep that can do it?



im pretty sure constantine atleast could clear with sufficient prep...but i wouldnt really put him as the weakest prepper there is...


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 16, 2015)

Aquaman had held his own against Despero


----------



## shade0180 (Oct 16, 2015)

MM - can basically turn him into a vegetable
Flash - can either turn him into a statue or speedforce dump him



> How's the weakest one with prep that can do it?



With prep even the likes of Batman can beat him.....
Toy man/Cyborg etc could BFR him
Superman can send him to the phantom zone

 Basically with prep even street leveler has a chance


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

shade0180 said:


> MM - can basically turn him into a vegetable
> Flash - can either turn him into a statue or speedforce dump him
> 
> 
> ...



idk if batman has enough toys to harm or bfr beerus level opponents...well..minus that one lounge chair he has lying around...


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> MM can't harm beerus.
> But he has the hax necessary to both survive against him and actually do something to him.
> 
> Something that pure flying bricks don't generally have.
> ...



The Flash is a high end time manipulator and kinetic energy manipulator he can do a lot more to Beerus


----------



## J★J♥ (Oct 16, 2015)

Classic Juggernaut.
Current Juggernaut is definitely not the weakest in any list


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 16, 2015)

^
Juggs can take galactic level stuff?
I know he can throw around with guys like hulk and thor, but that's not nearly enough here.


----------



## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> Juggs can take galactic level stuff?
> I know he can throw around with guys like hulk and thor, but that's not nearly enough here.



Check this out


----------



## J★J♥ (Oct 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> Juggs can take galactic level stuff?
> I know he can throw around with guys like hulk and thor, but that's not nearly enough here.



At normal power levels he is literally invulnerable. Even Eternity and Oblivion failed to harm him/warp him out of reality.
His only weakness is to telepathy.

8th day Juggernaut was 10x that.
Trion Juggernaut had enough strength to crush dimensions with punches.

Current Juggernaut has full power of Cyttorack which infinitely more than he ever had and no weakness to telepathy.


----------



## ∞Eternity∞ (Oct 16, 2015)

this too


----------



## J★J♥ (Oct 16, 2015)

Thespiritdetective said:


> Check this out



Thats Trion Juggernaut punching through reality.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 16, 2015)

Dafuq
I was under the impression that cytorrak is just some generic skyfather lvl demon thing


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 16, 2015)

I get the impression Marvel doesn't know what they want half their characters power levels to be.


----------



## J★J♥ (Oct 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Dafuq
> I was under the impression that cytorrak is just some generic skyfather lvl demon thing



Vishanti are shitting themselves when they hear his name. Vishanti individually are much higher than any skyfather except for Hercules (Who created the Multiverse after old one was destroyed by Chaos King)

Also difference between Cytorrak and other helldords is that he exists outside of Multiverse and there is only ONE Cyttorak while other hellords like Mephiso or Hel live in pocket dimensions inside universes and there is infinite number of them inside Multiverse.



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I get the impression Marvel doesn't know what they want half their characters power levels to be.



Yep. You are 100% correct.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 16, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I get the impression Marvel doesn't know what they want half their characters power levels to be.



i think thats the case with every comic book company...


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 16, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I get the impression Marvel doesn't know what they want half their characters power levels to be.



That is what happens when your company is full of writers who "hate consistency" and just want their stories to be cannon even if they contradict each others stories.


----------



## Blocky (Oct 16, 2015)

.Comic Power Levels are always confusing

Inconsistency and recons are everywhere in comics


----------



## Tonathan100 (Oct 16, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> That is what happens when your company is full of writers who "hate consistency" and just want their stories to be cannon even if they contradict each others stories.



Any comic company who has writers who want their stories to be canon even if they contradict each other is a comic company full of idiots.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 16, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Any comic company who has writers who want their stories to be canon even if they contradict each other is a comic company full of idiots.



This is kind of why I liked Dark Horse comics because they allowed their different universe to stay by themselves instead of just shoving them into each other and having writers mess them up with their personal bias as much as Marvel does to theirs.


----------



## King Diablo (Oct 19, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I get the impression Marvel doesn't know what they want half their characters power levels to be.



Secret Wars couldn't of made that more apparent with the beyonders taking out living tribunal and getting smacked by thor.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2015)

King Diablo said:


> Secret Wars couldn't of made that more apparent with the beyonders taking out living tribunal and getting smacked by thor.



The writers don't know what they want PERIOD.

They want the characters they write to be what they want, not what they are supposed to be.
They want their view to be shoved in, no matter how much it alienates their audience.
They want to be always right, even if they resort to petty stalking and insulting people who so much as say something they disagree with.

The current Marvel heads are an overgrown joke that are a disgrace to what Stan Lee worked to make and would cause Jack Kirby to roll in his grave if he found out what his company has become at this point.


----------



## King Diablo (Oct 19, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> The writers don't know what they want PERIOD.
> 
> They want the characters they write to be what they want, not what they are supposed to be.
> They want their view to be shoved in, no matter how much it alienates their audience.
> ...


It's fucking bullshit but if Hickman doesn't make sense of his run some other writer will hopefully inevitably do it for him. "I hope"


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2015)

King Diablo said:


> It's fucking bullshit but if Hickman doesn't make sense of his run some other writer will hopefully inevitably do it for him. "I hope"



You really shouldn't hope for another writer because most likely they will make an even bigger mess of it then the one before them.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 19, 2015)

Tfw you caused a tangent. Okay guys, back on topic


----------



## King Diablo (Oct 19, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You really shouldn't hope for another writer because most likely they will make an even bigger mess of it then the one before them.



Believe it or not I still have faith in the natural order of things. The gods will align things correctly and if not then fuck marvel if they are gonna go inconsistent with there cosmic order.

Edit: Sorry carry on.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 19, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Tfw you caused a tangent. Okay guys, back on topic



Yeah yeah okay I'll let off.

Just had to let off little bit of frustration.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 19, 2015)

Wally, probably  speed + hax .


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 19, 2015)

The Atom, and yes I dare you to challenge me


----------



## Tonathan100 (Oct 19, 2015)

I still stand by Superman (at least his Sundipped form) being able to defeat Beerus.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 19, 2015)

Oh boy I forgot Ray Palmer . Thor also probably can absorb that amount of energy as he did with the 1/5 of the universe bomb (It was 1/5 or 1/3?)  but can he redirect it back ?


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Oct 19, 2015)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I'm actually content to let this thread go for the time being. It might be useful for educational purposes though I'd prefer Whis be replaced by Beerus since Whis hasn't actually done anything of note in Super.



Would rep if wasn't 24'd


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 29, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> I still stand by Superman (at least his Sundipped form) being able to defeat Beerus.



 post crisis perhaps...n52 lax hax and damage to actually kill beerus.....


edit: also banned subject is banned. so lets leave it at that...


----------



## tanman (Oct 29, 2015)

The Atom is the worst.
But yeah he probably uses his ridiculous ability to win.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 29, 2015)

Shouldn't atom be vaped by some casual ki attack/beerus flexing his aura?


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Shouldn't atom be vaped by some casual ki attack/beerus flexing his aura?



yh..didnt atom manage to give darkseid brain damage in one of the future stories? where darkseid had conquerrored earth,superman had suicided because...something? and flash,aquaman,gl where travelling through time?


i would think he has the dura to survive casual ki flexing since he survived going into the head of a being made out of evil...


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

How quick is the Atom? He could fuck with Beerus but not necessarily before the planet is casually vaped and Beerus moves beyond his range.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> yh..didnt atom manage to give darkseid brain damage in one of the future stories? where darkseid had conquerrored earth,superman had suicided because...something? and flash,aquaman,gl where travelling through time?
> 
> 
> i would think he has the dura to survive casual ki flexing since he survived going into the head of a being made out of evil...


this story sound like a load of bull
and non-canon.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> this story sound like a load of bull
> and non-canon.



i do think it was canon jla comic..


tho its not canon in n52 since it took place during the electric superman boogaloo...


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

The Flash speedblitzes and Haxes.
At least I think he's the weakest that can do it.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> The Flash speedblitzes and Haxes.
> At least I think he's the weakest that can do it.



martian and flash were already agreed being able to do it...post crisis soup should be able to do it, n52 was agreed not to be able to do it due to lack of haxes,atom may or may not be able to do it...idk what else we agreed on...


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 30, 2015)

exactly what hax does pre-52 supes have?


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2015)

Wonder Woman can do it too, if her bracelets can block an attack from Ares or the entire Combine attack from the Greek old Gods then I don't see anything Beerus can do that would hurt her.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> martian and flash were already agreed being able to do it...post crisis soup should be able to do it, n52 was agreed not to be able to do it due to lack of haxes,atom may or may not be able to do it...idk what else we agreed on...



the Atom can do it, he has absolute control over the atoms in his body and he can rearrange atoms to turn Superman's blood into kryptonite for example


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

The Mad King said:


> Wonder Woman can do it too, if her bracelets can block an attack from Ares or the entire Combine attack from the Greek old Gods then I don't see anything Beerus can do that would hurt her.



I was under the belief that characters like Superman and Wonder Woman were, contrary to popular conception, actually above the Flash. They have the reactions to tag him and a significant DC/Durability advantage. Unless Flash can hax them before they can tag him which I don't think is all that likely...

Also in universe their a number of statements saying Superman is the strongest member of the Main Justice League and Wonder Woman is the second strongest.



> exactly what hax does pre-52 supes have?


His punches, especially his IMP, can cause rips in spacetime
His Torquasm Vo and Rao allow for some mental abilities
He has some speed-related haxes such as invisibility, intangibility, and phasing through matter to make it explode


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Also I hate to bring up the infamous debate, but since we're sort of on it anyway. Superman can just phase intangible and phase through Beerus causing him to explode. or hit him with a spacetime rip to beat him.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

The Mad King said:


> the Atom can do it, he has absolute control over the atoms in his body and he can rearrange atoms to turn Superman's blood into kryptonite for example



thats captain atom. atom is the guy who can shrink to the size of an atom. and captain atom needs his limiters off to do that...




Imperator100 said:


> I was under the belief that characters like Superman and Wonder Woman were, contrary to popular conception, actually above the Flash. They have the reactions to tag him and a significant DC/Durability advantage. Unless Flash can hax them before they can tag him which I don't think is all that likely...
> 
> Also in universe their a number of statements saying Superman is the strongest member of the Main Justice League and Wonder Woman is the second strongest.
> 
> ...



what i understand is that by feats: shazam,superman martian manhunter and flash are the strongest  on earth.  but that doesnt really matter since in n52 none of the jl members have enough firepower to actually damage beerus, so only people like martian and flash, who have the haxes to bypass the dura will be able to take him down...the only reason soup and wondie cant is because they lack the damage and haxes...



Imperator100 said:


> Also I hate to bring up the infamous debate, but since we're sort of on it anyway. Superman can just phase intangible and phase through Beerus causing him to explode. or hit him with a spacetime rip to beat him.




n52 cant do that i think..post crisis is still able to beat him i think...but whatevers...



so add captain atom to the list of people who can do it?


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Oh, wait we're discussing New 52 versions? Apologies, I was going based on Post-Crisis.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

Superman ain't beating Beerus without some sort of amp...

There's a big gap in their durabilty and DC. Who's the strongest person Superman has 'phased' himself through?


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 30, 2015)

I find it questionable to think wondy and supes even pre52 can beat a multi-galaxy buster w/o amps.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

they can use haxes....still banned subject is STILL banned...and we already agreed on supermans case anyway....

also wondie wont be able to do it..none of her versions have enough haxes to damage beerus...



so back to atom shall we?


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> they can use haxes....still banned subject is STILL banned...and we already agreed on supermans case anyway....
> 
> also wondie wont be able to do it..none of her versions have enough haxes to damage beerus...
> 
> ...



They don't really have haxes...

The IMP is hardly hax considering Beerus is FTL himself and should therefore be able to do it as well...

Beerus is far stronger and more durable. He wrecks Superman's shit.

UD said he would let this discussion fly for now IIRC.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

I made a thread about this kind of thing: 
And the general consensus seemed to be, hax resistance is needed to stop hax, regardless of power.

So if Beerus doesn't have matter manipulation resistance...
Beerus can't do the IMP jut because he's also FTL, the IMP works specifcally for DC characters because that is how their form of FTL travel works.

And Beerus can't do anything to an intangible person like Superman.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

> They don't really have haxes...


Except the ones I already mentioned.



> The IMP is hardly hax considering Beerus is FTL himself and should therefore be able to do it as well...


What? That doesn't make any sense. The IMP is a specific function of how DC characters work, your saying that any power is transferable like that which is ridiculous. There are fiction where having willpower makes you omnipotent yet Superman can't use that regardless of his willpower. Plus it's not just the IMP, Superman can break spacetime without it



> Beerus is far stronger and more durable. He wrecks Superman's shit.


Can't hit what he can't touch. Superman haxes him to death.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 30, 2015)

Why do I get the feeling this is being blown out of proportions.

Even if supes can phase to kill people of beerus' level
that's not what he does 99.99% of the times.
so unless you'd make him blood lusted with full knowledge he'd try to punch him to death.
in which case he'd be blown out of existence.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Why do I get the feeling this is being blown out of proportions.
> 
> Even if supes can phase to kill people of beerus' level
> that's not what he does 99.99% of the times.
> ...



You wouldn't need bloodlusted and full knowledge. You'd just need CIS off, like it is in most OBD fights. If CIS is off Superman goes intangible at the start for safety and from then on it's at most a stalemate since Beerus can't do anything to him. With bloodlust Superman then does his offensive haxes.

Even in-character, which is not OBD default, I could see Superman noticing how powerful Beerus is, particularly with his enhanced intelligence and senses, and using intangibility and illusions from Torquasm Vo to wear Beerus out of stamina.


----------



## King Kakarot (Oct 30, 2015)

How is breaking space time with a punch quantifiable?


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

King Kakarot said:


> How is breaking space time with a punch quantifiable?



It's not. That's why it's a hax and not a DC feat.


----------



## King Kakarot (Oct 30, 2015)

*It's not quantifiable to begin with* what does punching with space time even mean?

Meaning it's not worth bringing up


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> They don't really have haxes...
> 
> The IMP is hardly hax considering Beerus is FTL himself and should therefore be able to do it as well...
> 
> ...





Cooler said:


> Superman ain't beating Beerus without some sort of amp...
> 
> There's a big gap in their durabilty and DC. Who's the strongest person Superman has 'phased' himself through?



beerus cant use IMP....also IMP is hardly the biggest hax superman has...



ALSO: By definition, haxes are skills or abilities that allow characters to hit way beyond their paygrade....so talking about difference in stats is sorta useless when the other one has haxes and enough speed to take him down.....


----------



## King Kakarot (Oct 30, 2015)

Beerus if placed in the DcC Universe can use IMP so kinda like Flash can use the speed force onlu in the DCU since it's exclusively only to that universe

But Beerus hits _alot_ harder than the IMP so if anything giving him IMP just weakens him


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Except the ones I already mentioned.



They're not really going to cut it though unless intangibility has ever been used to kill a guy with Beerus's durability.  



> What? That doesn't make any sense. The IMP is a specific function of how DC characters work, your saying that any power is transferable like that which is ridiculous. There are fiction where having willpower makes you omnipotent yet Superman can't use that regardless of his willpower. Plus it's not just the IMP, Superman can break spacetime without it



Meh perhaps. I just figure if they're fighting in the same universe so they obey the same fucked up laws of physics. Like how Beerus should still be able to sense Superman's ki even if Superman doesn't use it. 

I wasn't seriously suggesting Beerus would just asspull an IMP - he'd have to see it first  

Besides that IMP is essentially just following RL physics assuming you could reach the speed of light. Isn't it? 



Nothing about this jumps out at me as DC only. He's just going at just under c and obeying real physics...



> Can't hit what he can't touch. Superman haxes him to death.



Beerus punches/blasts him to bits. Again who is the strongest person Superman has used this intangibility on to kill? Because otherwise it's just a NLF.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> They're not really going to cut it though unless intangibility has ever been used to kill a guy with Beerus's durability.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






1) phase his fist inside beerus face, dun deal.

2) ???

3) intangibility is quite literally intangibility....i mean, its not like his intangibility can be trumped by punching it harder.... unless you can show a feat where beerus can touch something that is intangible then he is not going to touch soup...


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

> They're not really going to cut it though unless intangibility has ever been used to kill a guy with Beerus's durability.


Why? That's like saying soul manipulation woudn't work on Beerus unless it's been used on someone of Beerus's power.





> Meh perhaps. I just figure if they're fighting in the same universe so they obey the same fucked up laws of physics. Like how Beerus should still be able to sense Superman's ki even if Superman doesn't use it.
> 
> I wasn't seriously suggesting Beerus would just asspull an IMP - he'd have to see it first
> 
> ...


If we're going by Real Physics either should be able to go FTL at all. We have to just accept this is how these two characters work since that's how they are presented by the authors.



> Beerus punches/blasts him to bits. Again who is the strongest person Superman has used this intangibility on to kill? Because otherwise it's just a NLF.


How is he supposed to do that against an intangible person? Also again it's not really an NLF if Beerus hasn't displayed any matter manipulation resistance feats then there's no reason matter manipulation wouldn't work on him.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Why? That's like saying soul manipulation woudn't work on Beerus unless it's been used on someone of Beerus's power.



Ok sure I see your point. It's still one thing to phase through a punch from Doomsday or a falling planet but to do it on a dime against a guy throwing out galaxy levelling energies? Seems a stretch. Has Superman ever used it offensively? Is it so casual for him that he can go intangible before he gets nuked...

I assume it's a different kind of intangible to MM's. It's essentially Superman vibrating really fast, I assume it's not getting treat in the same way here?



> If we're going by Real Physics either should be able to go FTL at all. We have to just accept this is how these two characters work since that's how they are presented by the authors.



TBH I don't see why if both guys are at .99999c why one would have more mass than the other. Feels like a cop out in this case.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

> Ok sure I see your point. It's still one thing to phase through a punch from Doomsday or a falling planet but to do it on a dime against a guy throwing out galaxy levelling energies? Seems a stretch. Has Superman ever used it offensively? Is it so casual for him that he can go intangible before he gets nuked...


Casually Phasing through Mongul and Mongal's attacks


Using it Offensively:


Superman is Faster and so Beerus's DC really doesn't matter if he can't hit intangibles.



> I assume it's a different kind of intangible to MM's. It's essentially Superman vibrating really fast, I assume it's not getting treat in the same way here?


Why? It's still intangibility, and it's still matter manipulation.




> TBH I don't see why if both guys are at .99999c why one would have more mass than the other. Feels like a cop out in this case.


Because they have different mechanics and whatnot?


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> thats captain atom. atom is the guy who can shrink to the size of an atom. and captain atom needs his limiters off to do that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No that's The Atom, Ray Palmer can do more than shrink if you didn't know


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

The problem of Beerus here is that he is all firepower and durability. If a character has hax then it's a question of if they can tag him first. Anyone on his own level of DC/Durability completely destoys it and so the question is basically who is the strongest character without hax or who is slow enough for Beerus to tag them first.


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 30, 2015)

Still waiting on how palmer survives a casual Ki wave from beerus.
unless atom is MFTL and I didn't know it.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Casually Phasing through Mongul and Mongal's attacks
> 
> 
> Using it Offensively:
> ...



The scan already has Superman's arm through him, the vibrating he does at the end isn't phasing - if it was it wouldn't have ripped Cyborg Superman apart.

And Superman being intagible doesn't matter if he doesn't use it offensively 



> Why? It's still intangibility, and it's still matter manipulation.



It's more a function of super speed than matter manipulation isn't it. 



> Because they have different mechanics and whatnot?



It's just following e=mc^2. It's hardly some DC specific mechanic.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

The Mad King said:


> No that's The Atom, Ray Palmer can do more than shrink if you didn't know



what?



yes. captain atom and atom are different guys. we have been talking about atom, aka ray, being able to shrink down and kill beerus.


you started talking about captain atom, aka the guy who can control the quantum field and yada yada yaa. aka adams. 

so i reminded you taht they are different characters and that we are not talking about captain atom here.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

Somehow I feel Supes Intang is being a bit overrated here. it's not like he's completely invincible to anyone else who doesn't have intang when he uses it (especially since it's achieved through vibrations instead of true intang). With the molecules still being in the air they can be destroyed. Beerus has shown to cover a rather large range just with shockwaves so destroying everything around him should cover Superman's intangible body until it gets destroyed.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

> The scan already has Superman's arm through him, the vibrating he does at the end isn't phasing - if it was it wouldn't have ripped Cyborg Superman apart.
> 
> And Superman being intagible doesn't matter if he doesn't use it offensively


That's him using the same ability though, which is vibrating something to affect matter. If you want to classify that as a different ability then whatever but the same thing applies. He can still go intangible and he can still vibrate something to disintegrate it.

There's also the point that once Superman goes intangible then there is nothing Beerus can do to him, which means Superman at worst stalemates. But more likely he beats Beerus through matter manipulation, mental manipulation, or spacetime manipulation.



> It's more a function of super speed than matter manipulation isn't it.


It's matter manipulation that comes from Super Speed.



> It's just following e=mc^2. It's hardly some DC specific mechanic.


You can't use RL physics here because otherwise could both output and tank infinite energy. The IMP is just something that DC speedsters can do. Also you seem to be missing the point that it's not just the IMP but even Superman's normal attacks can break spacetime.



> Somehow I feel Supes Intang is being a bit overrated here. it's not like he's completely invincible to anyone else who doesn't have intang when he uses it (especially since it's achieved through vibrations instead of true intang). With the molecules still being in the air they can be destroyed. Beerus has shown to cover a rather large range just with shockwaves so destroying everything around him should cover Superman's intangible body until it gets destroyed.


I suppose, but Superman would be mostly intangible, invisible, and much faster then Beerus and can take him down with hax far before Beerus would be able to get him.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> Somehow I feel Supes Intang is being a bit overrated here. it's not like he's completely invincible to anyone else who doesn't have intang when he uses it (especially since it's achieved through vibrations instead of true intang). With the molecules still being in the air they can be destroyed. Beerus has shown to cover a rather large range just with shockwaves so destroying everything around him should cover Superman's intangible body until it gets destroyed.



That's sort of my thinking as well. Superman vibrates his molecules to pass around other molecules.  He's also done it against Mongul's kids 'lasers' but he's not used it to avoid any of the huge ass explosions etc...that have caused him damage.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> That's sort of my thinking as well. Superman vibrates his molecules to pass around other molecules.  He's also done it against Mongul's kids 'lasers' but he's not used it to avoid any of the huge ass explosions etc...that have caused him damage.



yeah.

him not using it to avoid wider range attacks like you mentioned likely means he's more vulnerable to them in that state than if he were tangible. Probably because being his density is much lower than if he were solid.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

him not using it to avoid wider range attacks is more of a showcase of pis rather than it magically not working againts aoe attacks


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I know who the fuck Captain Atom is but The Atom is a lot more power than fucking size alteration of you didn't know which is atomic control over his own body which is why he doesn't explode when he shrink into the quantum verse etc


----------



## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 30, 2015)

I thought it was agreed going intangible and killing someone from the inside still required you to have enough DC to actually pull it off. Mostly because characters with high durability don't get their internal organs reduced to mush whenever they are hit.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

The Mad King said:


> I know who the fuck Captain Atom is but The Atom is a lot more power than fucking size alteration of you didn't know which is atomic control over his own body which is why he doesn't explode when he shrink into the quantum verse etc



yeah but he doesnt have control over quantum field like captain atom has... and atoms main stich is still size manipulation.                


and to yoshigitsu: the difference between their duras should not be so big that superman phasing his fist into beerus's head would not end up with beerus dead...  supes would still lose an arm from it. but he can regen that...


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2015)

Also to the person who asked about the atom speed, he can cross dimensional barriers and cut the distance extremely short between universes while in the atomic universe


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> yeah but he doesnt have control over quantum field like captain atom has... and atoms main stich is still size manipulation.
> 
> 
> and to yoshigitsu: the difference between their duras should not be so big that superman phasing his fist into beerus's head would not end up with beerus dead...  supes would still lose an arm from it. but he can regen that...



I didn't say he can control the quantum field but he can alter it manually.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I thought it was agreed going intangible and killing someone from the inside still required you to have enough DC to actually pull it off. Mostly because characters with high durability don't get their internal organs reduced to mush whenever they are hit.



Yeah Beerus having much more durable molecules might just result in Superman losing a hand or arm.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> and to yoshigitsu: the difference between their duras should not be so big that superman phasing his fist into beerus's head would not end up with beerus dead...  supes would still lose an arm from it. but he can regen that...



How big would the difference have to be? And why do you think it's not big enough as is?


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> Yeah Beerus having much more durable molecules might just result in Superman losing a hand or arm.



and beerus dying from either brain damage(chunks of flesh pressing his brain againts his skull) or having his blood stream clogged up by chunks of super arm....


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> and beerus dying from either brain damage(chunks of flesh pressing his brain againts his skull) or having his blood stream clogged up by chunks of super arm....



Superman hasn't never phased his arm through an opponent before anyway. 

Considering how much more durable Beerus is he might survive long enough to nuke Superman anyway.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> Superman hasn't never phased his arm through an opponent before anyway.
> 
> Considering how much more durable Beerus is he might survive long enough to nuke Superman anyway.




yet its viable that he can...i mean again : intangibility is quite literally intangibility, its not "intangibility towards certain objects as long as they arent too durable"....


and while that is a possibility i doubt he would be fast enough to tag superman before he goes intangible again...


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> yet its viable that he can...i mean again : intangibility is quite literally intangibility, its not "intangibility towards certain objects as long as they arent too durable"....
> 
> 
> and while that is a possibility i doubt he would be fast enough to tag superman before he goes intangible again...



So much wanking going on. Superman is going to spam intangibility now? Even if he's missing an arm?

Superman is simply vibrating his molecules so fast that he can pass between the molecules, he's never been able to use it to avoid an attack the magnitude of which Beerus can dish. They still occupy real space, they can be destroyed.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> So much wanking going on. Superman is going to spam intangibility now? Even if he's missing an arm?
> 
> Superman is simply vibrating his molecules so fast that he can pass between the molecules, he's never been able to use it to avoid an attack the magnitude of which Beerus can dish. They still occupy real space, they can be destroyed.



because that intangibility requires superman to have his arm intact?


and again, what sort of logic is that? he passes between the molecules just like you said...just because you increase the size of the attack isnt going to change the fact ;/ he just phases through it as well...


the lack of logic in that claim is just baffling...


----------



## Cooler (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> because that intangibility requires superman to have his arm intact?
> 
> 
> and again, what sort of logic is that? he passes between the molecules just like you said...just because you increase the size of the attack isnt going to change the fact ;/ he just phases through it as well...
> ...



Maybe because the guy would be in extreme pain?

The molecules are still there, they can still be destroyed if they get hit. Again this is something Superman has done a handful of times and never against the big ass explosions and shit that have left him on his back. Yet he's just going to go intangible off the bat and walk through a massive ki attack...


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> Maybe because the guy would be in extreme pain?
> 
> The molecules are still there, they can still be destroyed if they get hit. Again this is something Superman has done a handful of times and never against the big ass explosions and shit that have left him on his back. Yet he's just going to go intangible off the bat and walk through a massive ki attack...




so you are saying that superman who has lost his arm would be incapacitated by the pain....while beerus who has an arm pressing his brain matter againts his skull would be able to attack him....which one of us was supposed to be wanking here again? 


not phasing through big ass explosions is just pis, and even though the molecules are still there, he is able to phase through walls and such, meaning the surface of contact is not a factor in his intangibility.


he doesnt turn "parts of himself" intangible, he goes fully intangible...


----------



## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> How big would the difference have to be? And why do you think it's not big enough as is?



I'm curious about this too. Last time I saw this argument it was in a past Jotaro vs Sol thread. Is Post Crisis Superman at least galaxy level?


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2015)

Cooler said:


> So much wanking going on. Superman is going to spam intangibility now? Even if he's missing an arm?
> 
> Superman is simply vibrating his molecules so fast that he can pass between the molecules, he's never been able to use it to avoid an attack the magnitude of which Beerus can dish. They still occupy real space, they can be destroyed.



Superman has several forms of hax intangibility, reality warping, microwave vision, and even soul-fucking that Beerus doesn't have resistance too.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Superman has several forms of hax intangibility, reality warping, microwave vision, and even soul-fucking that Beerus doesn't have resistance too.



Soul fucking and reality warping? When?

Also the only form of intangibility supes has that I know of is the one type he can achieve through vibrations.

Lastly what do you mean microwave vision? Microscopic vision + heat vision? Not sure that's really hax or helpful at all in this case.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> Soul fucking and reality warping? When?
> 
> Also the only form of intangibility supes has that I know of is the one type he can achieve through vibrations.
> 
> Lastly what do you mean microwave vision? Microscopic vision + heat vision? Not sure that's really hax or helpful at all in this case.



reality warping...only thing i have heard is his ability to vibrate and heal up wounds in reality...

and intangibility is still intangibility even if he acquired it by making his ass cheeks clap at a certain wavelenght ...


his heat vision can be used to lobotomize targets..but honestly i think sacrifising his hand is the only way to go since beerus brain should be able to tank his heat vision...

as for soul fucking..i know he can see a soul but i dont think he can affect it...


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> reality warping...only thing i have heard is his ability to vibrate and heal up wounds in reality...
> 
> and intangibility is still intangibility even if he acquired it by making his ass cheeks clap at a certain wavelenght ...
> 
> ...



K. So could you answer the question I asked earlier that Oomaru Yoshitsugu also wanted to know the answer to?


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> K. So could you answer the question I asked earlier that Oomaru Yoshitsugu also wanted to know the answer to?



you mean about post crisis dc?


galaxy+ for all i know.


tho i think he had some big bang related feats.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> you mean about post crisis dc?
> 
> 
> galaxy+ for all i know.
> ...



Nah. I mean how little the DC difference can be where Supes could still kill Beerus by phasing into his internal organs. You said that the difference isn't great enough for Beerus to survive it but IMO it is and I don't know how you're rating the difference necessary to begin with.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> Nah. I mean how little the DC difference can be where Supes could still kill Beerus by phasing into his internal organs. You said that the difference isn't great enough for Beerus to survive it but IMO it is and I don't know how you're rating the difference necessary to begin with.





well its not... i mean if i would suddenly phase a fist sized cottonball into your brain you would be dead...so yeah...dc doesnt really matter in haxes...


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

I just got back and now I'm super-confused. I don't recall Superman having soul manipulation. Soul Vision, certainly but not actually manipulation. The offensive haxes that Superman has are matter manipulation, some illusions from Torquasm Vo, and spacetime breaking. Anyway it seems to me that consensus is that if haxes work on Beerus then he wins, if not he loses. Or maybe that's just my opinion


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> I just got back and now I'm super-confused. I don't recall Superman having soul manipulation. Soul Vision, certainly but not actually manipulation. The offensive haxes that Superman has are matter manipulation, some illusions from Torquasm Vo, and spacetime breaking. Anyway it seems to me that consensus is that if haxes work on Beerus then he wins, if not he loses. Or maybe that's just my opinion



thats pretty much the gist of it...i mean we already agreed earlier on that post crisis should win...but now people have been throwing a flaggel about intangibility not being intangibility and that phasing ones arm into someones brain would not kill the person...



and what matter manipulation did superman have that can be used offensively anyway?

edit: outside of intangibility and shit i mean.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> and what matter manipulation did superman have that can be used offensively anyway?
> 
> edit: outside of intangibility and shit i mean.



That's actually the matter manipulation I was referring to.

I just remebered He also has a little bit of reality-warping with Torquasm Vo but I can't recall him doing anything super impressive with it so, meh.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> That's actually the matter manipulation I was referring to.



well thats that then...


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> Soul fucking and reality warping? When?
> 
> Also the only form of intangibility supes has that I know of is the one type he can achieve through vibrations.
> 
> Lastly what do you mean microwave vision? Microscopic vision + heat vision? Not sure that's really hax or helpful at all in this case.



Microwave vision...cooks the victims brain into mush with invisible radioactive heat rays from his eyes.

reality warping can be achieved through enough access of his speed one instance is in teh emperor joker story.

Yes he has soul-fucking....how do you think he killed Darkseid's non-corporeal form?


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Microwave vision...cooks the victims brain into mush with invisible radioactive heat rays from his eyes.
> 
> reality warping can be achieved through enough access of his speed one instance is in teh emperor joker story.
> 
> *Yes he has soul-fucking....how do you think he killed Darkseid's non-corporeal form?*



He did? Can I see, I genuinely don't recall that.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Microwave vision...cooks the victims brain into mush with invisible radioactive heat rays from his eyes.
> 
> reality warping can be achieved through enough access of his speed one instance is in teh emperor joker story.
> 
> Yes he has soul-fucking....how do you think he killed Darkseid's non-corporeal form?



i dont think trying to cook beerus( i hate characters whose name ends in s...)  brain would end up working...his dura is still galaxy level and all that jazz...

and i dont think superman will have enough time to speed up to those levels and attack beerus with anything before beerus aoes...


as for darkseid: i would want some scans of that as well..



i still hold that the only way supes would beat him is intangible and fist to the brain method..


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> He did? Can I see, I genuinely don't recall that.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Um...I suppose that makes sense unless I'm missing something.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

well that was fast. thanks based tom. bbbuuuuuut...dont you think thats a tad too specific to be considered something that would help him outside of this particular instance? i mean...beerus isnt one with the multiverse...nor is he non corporeal...


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> i dont think trying to cook beerus( i hate characters whose name ends in s...)  brain would end up working...his dura is still galaxy level and all that jazz...
> 
> and i dont think superman will have enough time to speed up to those levels and attack beerus with anything before beerus aoes...
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter brain matter is different, more sensitive. DBZ characters can be killed by things like diseases and viruses. Their organs insides and the like or still vulnerable.

Superman is trillions to quadrillions of times faster than light in reactions....Beerus is still only billions.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Doesn't matter brain matter is different, more sensitive. DBZ characters can be killed by things like diseases and viruses. Their organs insides and the like or still vulnerable.
> 
> Superman is trillions to quadrillions of times faster than light in reactions....Beerus is still only billions.



He's Trillions to Quadrillions in Movement Speed. His reactions are even faster since he can tag Zoom and stuff.


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> well that was fast. thanks based tom. bbbuuuuuut...dont you think thats a tad too specific to be considered something that would help him outside of this particular instance? i mean...beerus isnt one with the multiverse...nor is he non corporeal...



No, see you're missing the point. Everything works on a vibrational frequency including things like souls, spirits and minds which is why he could essentially destroy it by screaming.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Doesn't matter brain matter is different, more sensitive. DBZ characters can be killed by things like diseases and viruses. Their organs insides and the like or still vulnerable.
> 
> Superman is trillions to quadrillions of times faster than light in reactions....Beerus is still only billions.





if their insides werent as durable as their outsides, every single punch they take would turn their brain to mush...so one should say they are still durable againts conventional attacks...

as for reaction speed: beerus still has enough reactionary speed to react to superman speeding up to the level it would be needed for supes to warp reality...


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> as for reaction speed: beerus still has enough reactionary speed to react to superman speeding up to the level it would be needed for supes to warp reality...



I have to protest this. Post-Crisis Superman is numerous orders of magnitude faster then Beerus to the extent that I don't think Beerus could tag Superman until well-after Superman has had plenty of changes to use his hax abilities.


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 30, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> if their insides werent as durable as their outsides, every single punch they take would turn their brain to mush...so one should say they are still durable againts conventional attacks...
> 
> as for reaction speed: beerus still has enough reactionary speed to react to superman speeding up to the level it would be needed for supes to warp reality...



that's not how it works. Otherwise characters with adamantium armor wouldn't be protected. Also they have to enhance their defense and attcak with ki-amping. No ki-amping no protection no abnormal super durability.

again no because Beerus is still only billions of times ftl. Supes is still tens of thousands to millions of times faster than him.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 30, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> that's not how it works. Otherwise characters with adamantium armor wouldn't be protected. Also they have to enhance their defense and attcak with ki-amping. No ki-amping no protection no abnormal super durability.
> 
> again no because Beerus is still only billions of times ftl. Supes is still tens of thousands to millions of times faster than him.



fine ill yield on that then...


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> I have to protest this. Post-Crisis Superman is numerous orders of magnitude faster then Beerus to the extent that I don't think Beerus could tag Superman until well-after Superman has had plenty of changes to use his hax abilities.



Post Crisis superman is faster (and orders of magnitude at that) than billions to quadrillions times the speed of light?


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Post Crisis superman is faster (and orders of magnitude at that) than billions to quadrillions times the speed of light?



Beerus is Billions of Times Faster then light. Post-Crisis Superman is billions of times faster then light by feats, trillions to quadrillions by scaling (unless you want to argue for some reason scaling doesn't want for DC characters) and even higher in reaction speed, given he can generally tag Flash and Zoom.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 30, 2015)

Ok, i can accept that , but it just puts him into the same range.


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Ok, i can accept that , but it just puts him into the same range.



When you conisder the scaling it makes him anywhere from thousands to millions of times faster. We are talking about the difference between a normal human and double-digit hypersonic to potentially relativistic speeds.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 30, 2015)

But we're actually not sure how fast beerus is, Billions is the low end IIRC


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> But we're actually not sure how fast beerus is, Billions is the low end IIRC



I really haven't seen any good evidence suggesting anything higher.


----------



## xenos5 (Oct 30, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> I really haven't seen any good evidence suggesting anything higher.



There is this


----------



## Imperator100 (Oct 30, 2015)

xenos5 said:


> There is this



Well that gets back in the whole DB Universe size debacle. By the way I completely forgot bout that debate. Should I jump back into it?


----------



## Katsuargi (Oct 30, 2015)

Also the problem on if we can even use that map as a accurate representation, given Emma's place is roughly the same distance from King Kai's place as Earth which...has implications as far back as the Saiya-jin saga.

If we're using a real universe size, the distance I wound up using from the Edge of the mortal universe on that map is going to be your lowest end, give a real universe model would be much further out than the weird DBZ map that has Earth nearish to the "Edge".

Discussions for the appropriate thread if it's to be discussed, though.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 31, 2015)

If the DB universe is normal sized then billions of times c isn't going to cut it.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

if is a fancy word...


----------



## Cooler (Oct 31, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> if is a fancy word...



We'll probably find out sooner or later.

Going to be fun bumping this thread down the line


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 31, 2015)

its really, really dumb trying to argue that the DBZ verse is smaller than the real universe


----------



## Cooler (Oct 31, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> its really, really dumb trying to argue that the DBZ verse is smaller than the real universe



Well if that's the case then Whis and Beerus are probably quadrillions of times c.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

well normal sized or not. it doesnt change that much anything that has been said here so far... so back to subject?


we still haventh agreed on wether or not atom could do the deed...


edit: also, about n52 superman...since that "convergence" or whatever event..does supe get his post crisis feats as well?


----------



## Deer Lord (Oct 31, 2015)

No, convergence simply re-introduced post-crisis supes as an additional version of superman within the multiverse.
nu52 supes only has his own feats to fall back on.


----------



## Dark Evangel (Oct 31, 2015)

Can Flash/Wally West really speedblitz Beerus? I seem to remember that Flash's fastest quantifiable feat is 13 trillion times the speed of light while Beerus has calcs that puts him at quadrillion times the speed of light.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 31, 2015)

Dark Evangel said:


> Can Flash/Wally West really speedblitz Beerus? I seem to remember that Flash's fastest quantifiable feat is 13 trillion times the speed of light while Beerus has calcs that puts him at quadrillion times the speed of light.



uh

no


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

Dark Evangel said:


> Can Flash/Wally West really speedblitz Beerus? I seem to remember that Flash's fastest quantifiable feat is 13 trillion times the speed of light while Beerus has calcs that puts him at quadrillion times the speed of light.



>claiming beerus to be faster than flash



yes, flash can blitz beerus even easier than pc superman...he has enough haxes to do it quite easily...


----------



## Dark Evangel (Oct 31, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> >claiming beerus to be faster than flash
> 
> 
> 
> yes, flash can blitz beerus even easier than pc superman...he has enough haxes to do it quite easily...


I wasn't claiming he's faster than Flash hence my statement was in a form of question. I just simply want to know if Flash has any better speed feats than the 13 trillion times ftl speed calc for him.

If he has other hax to put Beerus down then good for him.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

Dark Evangel said:


> I wasn't claiming he's faster than Flash hence my statement was in a form of question. I just simply want to know if Flash has any better speed feats than the 13 trillion times ftl speed calc for him.
> 
> If he has other hax to put Beerus down then good for him.



cant say if he has better feats, but he does get scaling from superman, who should have easy access to feats that put his speed way beyond trillions c.


and flash has speed steal,intangibility,kinetic force transfer, bfr to speedforce. just to name a few that would work on beerus.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 31, 2015)

What are these trillions of times C+ speed feats for Superman? I thought he just got quadrillions from scaling and was billions from feats.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 31, 2015)

You do know Flashes have been crossing the universe/multiverse in  small fractions of a nano second since the dawn of time? Beerus lil feat isn't even impressive in that regard.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

Cooler said:


> What are these trillions of times C+ speed feats for Superman? I thought he just got quadrillions from scaling and was billions from feats.



as servo.

i can get ftl feats for superman(well i could if i could figure out how to share pics from my computer instead of instagram or whatever the duck hip fancy site the pic sharing mechanism uses here..) but i cant really quantify them in terms of how many times these feats are ftl...


----------



## Cooler (Oct 31, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> as servo.
> 
> i can get ftl feats for superman(well i could if i could figure out how to share pics from my computer instead of instagram or whatever the duck hip fancy site the pic sharing mechanism uses here..) but i cant really quantify them in terms of how many times these feats are ftl...



I've seen the FTL feats blog EM did and the reddit respect thread for Superman. Non of those were trillions IIRC, feats wise they're in the same ballpark I think probably - considering Beerus's one lone speed feat 

Not sure how Superman really stacks up to the Flash in speed terms.


----------



## Visa (Oct 31, 2015)

Madoka Galactus


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

Cooler said:


> I've seen the FTL feats blog EM did and the reddit respect thread for Superman. Non of those were trillions IIRC, feats wise they're in the same ballpark I think probably - considering Beerus's one lone speed feat
> 
> Not sure how Superman really stacks up to the Flash in speed terms.



fast enough to tag flash when flash doesnt want to be tagged, and is considered to be stronger than flash in combat...still, can we get back to the point?


----------



## Black Sabbath II (Oct 31, 2015)

The Mad King said:


> You do know Flashes have been crossing the universe/multiverse in  small fractions of a nano second since the dawn of time? Beerus lil feat isn't even impressive in that regard.



Wasn't there a point where Wally West essentially traveled faster than instantaneous travel.

Even though that's bullshit. But it's the Flash so eh.


----------



## Cooler (Oct 31, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> fast enough to tag flash when flash doesnt want to be tagged, and is considered to be stronger than flash in combat...still, can we get back to the point?





What about this?

The point is Superman's speed. Don't get your knickers in such a twist.


----------



## Visa (Oct 31, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> *fast enough to tag flash when flash doesnt want to be tagged*, and is considered to be stronger than flash in combat...still, can we get back to the point?


 

EDIT: Nevermind, someone beat me to it.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Oct 31, 2015)

How about this:

Flash is moving at such an insane speed that it looks like he’s actually warping reality – he recreates the town Superman is in to look like Krypton, not only the costumes, but entire buildings and landscapes (imagine that besides building all of those – he actually has to get all the materials from other locations around the world). 

Superman tracks him down and proceeds to match his speed and catch him. 











“Always wondered…which of us…was fastest.” (note that this takes place after Flash Rebirth; also note that he says *fastest* not _faster_ which denotes the fact that Superman considers that they are the two fastest heroes by default).

Flash said that he let Superman catch him, but up until that point Superman still had to match Flash’s reality warping speed – which he did – and the extent on which Flash could decrease his speed is in doubt, considering that, even once Superman catches him, Flash still couldn’t stop his feet from moving until after Superman takes off the device, so he couldn’t stop running. This is also supported by the fact that Barry did all that redecorating/Kryptonese speaking, instead of, you know, actually stopping to talk to Supes – he was locked in super speed mode.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

SeaOfHope said:


> EDIT: Nevermind, someone beat me to it.



also from this comic we have wally talking about how he never could match up to barry and jay talking about how *barry made him the flash he is today*


its a shill comic.and im asking why is this so important because we have been noted twice about derailing the thread here already, so i would just rather get back to the subject at hand. you want to argue about speed feats, then go to metadome.


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 31, 2015)

Cooler said:


> What are these trillions of times C+ speed feats for Superman? I thought he just got quadrillions from scaling and was billions from feats.



Actually quadrillions for feats. he flew from Earth to Oa (center of the universe) in less than 2 and a half minutes all the while fighting Superboy prime



Cooler said:


> I've seen the FTL feats blog EM did and the reddit respect thread for Superman. Non of those were trillions IIRC, feats wise they're in the same ballpark I think probably - considering Beerus's one lone speed feat
> 
> Not sure how Superman really stacks up to the Flash in speed terms.



Beerus is only billions of times FTL so no, it's not even really in the same ballpark.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Oct 31, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Actually quadrillions for feats. he flew from Earth to Oa (center of the universe) in less than 2 and a half minutes all the while fighting Superboy prime



Not doubting...but can I have scans for that?


----------



## TobiSan (Oct 31, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> How about this:
> 
> Flash is moving at such an insane speed that it looks like he’s actually warping reality – he recreates the town Superman is in to look like Krypton, not only the costumes, but entire buildings and landscapes (imagine that besides building all of those – he actually has to get all the materials from other locations around the world).
> 
> ...



All that effort and for what? Flash is mind controlled and not even breaking a sweat. After all that they go to a coffee shop and Superman has to put effort into matching Flash's casual reaction time.

Superman is not stronger than Flash in combat. Wonder Woman fought with Zolomon commenting that he hits harder than Superman(WW has fought all out Superman) and Zolomon has fought with Flash toe to toe.


----------



## puolakanaho (Oct 31, 2015)

TobiSan said:


> All that effort and for what? Flash is mind controlled and not even breaking a sweat. After all that they go to a coffee shop and Superman has to put effort into matching Flash's casual reaction time.
> 
> Superman is not stronger than Flash in combat. Wonder Woman fought with Zolomon commenting that he hits harder than Superman(WW has fought all out Superman) and Zolomon has fought with Flash toe to toe.


 

while i do agree with you on calling flash an equal to superman in combat,i however will note that going by character statements is not the best way to advocate it.


still. back to the subject?


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 31, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Not doubting...but can I have scans for that?




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Tonathan100 (Oct 31, 2015)

TobiSan said:


> All that effort and for what? Flash is mind controlled and not even breaking a sweat. After all that they go to a coffee shop and Superman has to put effort into matching Flash's casual reaction time.
> 
> Superman is not stronger than Flash in combat. Wonder Woman fought with Zolomon commenting that he hits harder than Superman(WW has fought all out Superman) and Zolomon has fought with Flash toe to toe.



Ummm....no. Superman wasn't really shown exerting effort into matching the Flash's reaction time.

I never said that Superman was stronger than the Flash in combat, but such a thing is highly arguable to begin with. And Wonder Woman said that Zolomon hit harder than Superman becuase he hit her with an Infinite Mass Punch.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Oct 31, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Yeah....the scans don't actually show them going to Oa. It does *show* the heroes and SBP flying through outer space with nondescript planets in the background.


----------



## Huey Freeman (Oct 31, 2015)

puolakanaho said:


> while i do agree with you on calling flash an equal to superman in combat,i however will note that going by character statements is not the best way to advocate it.
> 
> 
> still. back to the subject?



Zoom was casually backing handing Wonder Woman from country to country


----------



## trance (Oct 31, 2015)

Dark Evangel said:


> I wasn't claiming he's faster than Flash hence my statement was in a form of question. I just simply want to know if Flash has any better speed feats than the 13 trillion times ftl speed calc for him.
> 
> If he has other hax to put Beerus down then good for him.



Characters slower than Wally are quadrillions of times FTL.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Oct 31, 2015)

I forgot why i hate speed debates so much...


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 31, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Yeah....the scans don't actually show them going to Oa. It does *show* the heroes and SBP flying through outer space with nondescript planets in the background.



You're joking right? They crash landed on Oa in the final page...


----------



## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Oct 31, 2015)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that Mogo?


----------



## Tom Servo (Oct 31, 2015)

No it's very clearly Oa. That's where they were headed that's where they arrived. Mogo is not near Oa and even if it was the feat itself would still count.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

They crash landed on Mogo, not Oa. Mogo had set himself behind Rao, Krypton's Sun. Kal-L and Kal-El push Prime through it to depower him.

Prime may or may not have been near Oa. It's not exactly clear, but keep in mind that Prime was able to rearrange the Universe (as in moving planets across vast distances) so fast that no even noticed until much later, so at the very least they were pretty far from Earth, When the Supermen caught up with Prime they took him to Rao, which after Alexander Luthor's Infinite Crisis retcons was something like 25 light-years from Earth.

If you believe Prime was close to Oa, then the speed feat is very impressive for the Supermen, since it means they flew close to the center of the Universe and then back to the Milky Way in a few hours at the most. If you don't believe they flew anywhere close to that distance, then it's just a standard FTL feat.

Also something to note, the DC Universe is bigger than our known Universe, since OWAW established that there was a galaxy one hundred trillion light-years from Earth.

Sidenote, the Eradicator flew to the edge of the Universe and back to Earth in something like a month. I don't think it was made clear if he made the first trip without making any stops along the way.


----------



## Tom Servo (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> They crash landed on Mogo, not Oa. Mogo had set himself behind Rao, Krypton's Sun. Kal-L and Kal-El push Prime through it to depower him.
> 
> Prime may or may not have been near Oa. It's not exactly clear, but keep in mind that Prime was able to rearrange the Universe (as in moving planets across vast distances) so fast that no even noticed until much later, so at the very least they were pretty far from Earth, When the Supermen caught up with Prime they took him to Rao, which after Alexander Luthor's Infinite Crisis retcons was something like 25 light-years from Earth.
> 
> ...



It still applies since Oa was their destination. You could also make the argument Oa was close to Krypton and it's sun.


----------



## Haro (Nov 1, 2015)

I can sense the lock


----------



## Imperator100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> I can sense the lock



I could sense it for this thread long ago. But my senses failed me


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> It still applies since Oa was their destination. You could also make the argument Oa was close to Krypton and it's sun.



No you couldn't. Oa is at the center of the Universe, Krypton wasn't. They crash land where Krypton used to be.

The Supermen were specifically trying to get Prime away from Oa. Prime himself noted that the Supermen were taking him to where Krypton used to be, thinking their plan was to hurt him with Kryptonite.

If Oa was near Krypton then feat isn't at all impressive since it means they only flew something like 50 light-years in total. 

As I said, it's up to whether you believe Prime was close to Oa when the Lanterns confronted him. There's nothing concrete to say exactly how far from Earth he had gotten.


----------



## Tom Servo (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> No you couldn't. Oa is at the center of the Universe, *Krypton wasn't.* They crash land where Krypton used to be.
> 
> The Supermen were specifically trying to get Prime away from Oa. Prime himself noted that the Supermen were taking him to where Krypton used to be, thinking their plan was to hurt him with Kryptonite.
> 
> ...



That sounds like an assumption.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> That sounds like an assumption.



As of Superman: Birthright, Krypton is in the Andromeda galaxy.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> That sounds like an assumption.



Krypton was something close to 25 light-years away from Earth with the Infinite Crisis retcons, Oa isn't.



Tonathan100 said:


> As of Superman: Birthright, Krypton is in the Andromeda galaxy.



This was retconned during Infinite Crisis. It went from a 2 million light-years+ away from Earth to less than 50 light-years.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> Krypton was something close to 25 light-years away from Earth with the Infinite Crisis retcons, Oa isn't.
> 
> This was retconned during Infinite Crisis. It went from a 2 million light-years+ away from Earth to less than 50 light-years.



Proof of such a retcon? And even so, such a retcon would only occur *AFTER* Infinite Crisis, so the feat is still valid.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Proof of such a retcon? And even so, such a retcon would only occur *AFTER* Infinite Crisis, so the feat is still valid.



I believe it was in the first issue of Secret Origin. 

And in this case the retcons occurred before the feat happened. The Infinite Crisis retcons were the result of Alexander Luthor messing with reality to bring back the Multiverse. Issue 6 is when all the retcons occur, and issue 7 is when the feat happens.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> I believe it was in the first issue of Secret Origin.
> 
> And in this case the retcons occurred before the feat happened. The Infinite Crisis retcons were the result of Alexander Luthor messing with reality to bring back the Multiverse. Issue 6 is when all the retcons occur, and issue 7 is when the feat happens.



A quick Google search tells me that "Secret Origin" as a comic book does not exist.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> A quick Google search tells me that "Secret Origin" as a comic book does not exist.



Superman: Secret Origin was the definitive Post-Crisis Superman origin, written by Geoff Johns with art by Gary Frank.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> Superman: Secret Origin was the definitive Post-Crisis Superman origin, written by Geoff Johns with art by Gary Frank.



Superman, Secret Origin happened in 2009-2010. Infinite Crisis happened in 2005-2006. And you still have no evidence that Krypton was only less than 50 light years from Earth.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Superman, Secret Origin happened in 2009-2010. Infinite Crisis happened in 2005-2006. And you still have no evidence that Krypton was only less than 50 light years from Earth.



With Infinite Crisis there were a lot of retcons. Not all of them were apparent right afterwards. 

Secret Origin was the Post-Crisis origin with the Infinite Crisis retcons even though it didn't come out till much later but Superman's history had been retconned before that. His ties to the Legion, For The Man Who Has Everything were some of the other retcons that happened with Infinite Crisis that we saw before Secret Origin.

I'm getting Secret Origin right now. If it's not there then I can't recall where else it could have been stated but I distinctly remember a scene with Marlon Brando style Jor-El telling someone that Krypton was something like 25 to 50 light-years from Earth.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> With Infinite Crisis there were a lot of retcons. Not all of them were apparent right afterwards.
> 
> Secret Origin was the Post-Crisis origin with the Infinite Crisis retcons even though it didn't come out till much later but Superman's history had been retconned before that. His ties to the Legion, For The Man Who Has Everything were some of the other retcons that happened with Infinite Crisis that we saw before Secret Origin.
> 
> I'm getting Secret Origin right now. If it's not there then I can't recall where else it could have been stated but I distinctly remember a scene with Marlon Brando style Jor-El telling someone that Krypton was something like 25 to 50 light-years from Earth.



Then you most likely remembered wrong.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Then you most likely remembered wrong.



It's a possibility, but I'll just check the comic to be sure. 

It might have also been that issue of Superman/Batman where Jor-El meets up with Thomas Wayne. If not Secret Origin, I'll track that down as well.


----------



## TobiSan (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Ummm....no. Superman wasn't really shown exerting effort into matching the Flash's reaction time.
> 
> I never said that Superman was stronger than the Flash in combat, but such a thing is highly arguable to begin with. And Wonder Woman said that Zolomon hit harder than Superman becuase he hit her with an Infinite Mass Punch.



Yes it was, Flash was casually thinking and Superman said he has to put effort to match his reactions. 

Why does it matter how he hit her, he still hit harder.

Flash's speed comes how well he can operate the Speed Force, that is why Wally is faster than Barry, he is better Speed Force users. That is why he was slow in mind control.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

I thought Flash Rebirth established Barry as the fastest Flash as well as making him the Speed Force itself.

Anyone read it recently?


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Then you most likely remembered wrong.



So I did remember wrong. Secret Origins didn't specify how far Krypton was from Earth.

But Superman/Batman 50 did but my numbers were off. The Infinite Crisis retcons changed Krypton to 1000s of light-years from Earth not 25.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> So I did remember wrong. Secret Origins didn't specify how far Krypton was from Earth.
> 
> But Superman/Batman 50 did but my numbers were off. The Infinite Crisis retcons changed Krypton to 1000s of light-years from Earth not 25.



If we lowball it to 1 hour to cross a distance of 2000 light years, then Superman would be 17531572.9035c, but that is too low, considering that...

Brainiac, a much more intelligent character (meaning that his scientific authority exceeds any Krypyonian), said that Krypton was in the Andromeda Galaxy. So it was more than likely that Jor-El simply made a slip of the tongue.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> If we lowball it to 1 hour to cross a distance of 2000 light years, then Superman would be 17531572.9035c, but that is too low, considering that...
> 
> Brainiac, a much more intelligent character (meaning that his scientific authority exceeds any Krypyonian), said that Krypton was in the Andromeda Galaxy. So it was more than likely that the Jor-El construct simply made a slip of the tongue.



No...It's a retcon, plain and simple. And that's not a Jor-El construct, that's Jor-El himself.

And where did Brainiac say Krypton was in the Andromeda Galaxy? The Andromeda Galaxy location has always come from Birthright from my knowledge. Before that it was 50 light-years from Man of Steel.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> *No...It's a retcon, plain and simple.* And that's not a Jor-El construct, that's Jor-El himself.
> 
> And where did Brainiac say Krypton was in the Andromeda Galaxy? The Andromeda Galaxy location has always come from Birthright from my knowledge. Before that it was 50 light-years from Man of Steel.



A character statement cannot "retcon" anything. Not to mention that Jor-El was explicitly contradicted by Brainiac here:



Is that not Brainiac saying that?

And even if we did treat Jor-El's statement as a "retcon", such a retcon (as in, the moment that Krypton became only thousands of light years away from the Earth) came *after* Infinite Crisis, while the feat happened during Infinite Crisis, making the point moot.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> A character statement cannot "retcon" anything. Not to mention that Jor-El was explicitly contradicted by Brainiac here:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that not Brainiac saying that?



No...That's Luthor, and Birthright was erased from continuity with the Infinite Crisis retcons. Superman/Batman 50 takes precedence because it's actually canon.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> No...That's Luthor, and Birthright was erased from continuity with the Infinite Crisis retcons. Superman/Batman 50 takes precedence because it's actually canon.



Thank God for Convergence then (if you're right, that is):





Everything in DC Comics is canon now. Everything. This includes Birthright.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Thank God for Convergence then (if you're right, that is):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not what Convergence means.

What Convergence did was make that everything exists somewhere. There's an Infinite Multiverse. So Birthright Superman exists in a Universe somewhere, as does Man of Steel Superman and every Superman ever.

It does not mean that everything is canon to all characters.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> That's not what Convergence means.
> 
> What Convergence did was make that everything exists somewhere. There's an Infinite Multiverse. So Birthright Superman exists in a Universe somewhere, as does Man of Steel Superman and every Superman ever.
> 
> It does not mean that everything is canon to all characters.



Okay. I'll still need proof that Birthright was erased from continuity with Infinite Crisis retcons.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Okay. I'll still need proof that Birthright was erased from continuity with Infinite Crisis retcons.



Secret Origin is the proof. It's the definitive origin of Post-Crisis Superman following Infinite Crisis.

Birthright was replaced, just like Man of Steel was before it. Mark Waid even said something about it when the news hit that Birthright was out.


----------



## Tonathan100 (Nov 1, 2015)

Coffee Mug said:


> Secret Origin is the proof. It's the definitive origin of Post-Crisis Superman following Infinite Crisis.
> 
> Birthright was replaced, just like Man of Steel was before it. Mark Waid even said something about it when the news hit that Birthright was out.



Okay then. I'll have to update Tacocat on this, however, to see if what you're saying is true or not.

Also, how does Secret Origin "replace" Birthright or Man of Steel instead of adding to them? I'm pretty sure that neither is irrevocably contradicted by Secret Origin. VS. debates include all of Post-Crisis into Post-Crisis Superman to begin with anyway, so your point is moot.

Also, in interviews of Geoff Johns and Gary Frank the *writers* of Superman: Secret Origin (Mark Wald had no partaking in Secret Origin whatsoever, making his word meaningless), neither talk about the comic book "replacing" Birthright. So there goes your entire argument.





There's also the fact that retcons don't apply until they are shown/stated/implied, and Krypton being only thousands of light years away from Earth wasn't shown/stated/implied in Infinite Crisis, so the original calculations still apply.

I still hold the line that the statement of Jor-El was not a "retcon", but Jor-El mispeaking on his part, considering that Lex Luthor, a more intelligent character, said that Krypton was in the Andromeda Galaxy?

Bottom line: fallible character statement =/= "retcon" in any sense of the word.


----------



## Coffee Mug (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Okay then. I'll have to update Tacocat on this, however.



I don't know who that is. 

There are still Superman feats that are clearly millions of times the speed of light.



Coffee Mug said:


> I don't think this Pre-Flashpoint Superman speed feat has been calculated yet, so if anyone could do it, that'd be great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Like ~260,900,000c.



And there's that Eradicator feat I mentioned which has him travelling at least a 200 trillion light-years in a month or few months. He and Superman are around the same speed.


----------



## King Diablo (Nov 1, 2015)

Tonathan100 said:


> Thank God for Convergence then (if you're right, that is):
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry but not even.


----------



## puolakanaho (Nov 1, 2015)

well this thread is dead...in before lectures about reporting.


----------



## Matty (Mar 12, 2016)

Only in comics? Couldn't Superman do it?


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Mar 12, 2016)

I see what you did there


----------



## xmysticgohanx (Mar 12, 2016)

Matty said:


> Only in comics? Couldn't Superman do it?



not anymore


----------



## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Probably someone in the Herald Level Range using Superior Speed and Hax. I would argue several members of the Post-Crisis Justice League could do it, especially if Beerus is in-character.

Superman has Speed + Hax....I would argue for it. As could High-End Green Lanterns really by the same logic, Flash has the same, although amp Speed Advantage MORE, Wonder Woman could use the Godwave which puts her on Beerus's Level Physical at Least, plus Speed Advantage and Arguably Experience (If you consider how rarely Beerus fights opponents near him in strength), Martian Manhunter has Intangibility and Mind/Soul Attacks.....meh Beerus has alot of power but from what I've seen he can't keep up speed wise and he doesn't have the hax resistance to get past the Herald Tiers.

Weakest DC Character I could see taking him would be Zatanna, if she gets reflex scaling to JL. If she does then despite being physically far far weaker, she can pull off a hax victory.

I don't know Marvel nearly as well.


----------



## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Mar 12, 2016)

I thought they were on the same ballpark speedwise now that the DB verse was confirmed to be more than 4 galaxies?


----------



## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I thought they were on the same ballpark speedwise now that the DB verse was confirmed to be more than 4 galaxies?



As far as I've seen DBS is only in the Low Billions of times FTL Range. Anything higher I've seen is based off a map clearly not drawn to scale (based on Snake Way, among other things). DC Heralds are WAYYYYY Higher then that. With Scaling, likely in the High Quadrillions Range at least.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 12, 2016)

IIRC there was a calc done recently for DBS they put the in trillions or quadrillions times FTL


----------



## Katsuargi (Mar 12, 2016)

GM did an update on the 2nd page of my blog comments. Dunno if he did one in a proper blog.

If his is accurate, Whis speed is 900 something quad, so basically single digit quint are there abouts.

I think those lists probably still hold an advantage, just not blitz level any more?


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Again, this seems to be what I mentioned when I said 





> Anything higher I've seen is based off a map clearly not drawn to scale (based on Snake Way, among other things).


 as the calc seems to be based off the DB Manga Map which is not to proportion.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 12, 2016)

I'm going to say someone like Odin, Surtur or Mephisto after a good fight

I know very little of DC so I wouldn't know, who is Odin in DC?


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I'm going to say someone like Odin, Surtur or Mephisto after a good fight
> 
> I know very little of DC so I wouldn't know, who is Odin in DC?



I'm pretty sure Odin takes it easily and beings weaker the Odin like Silver Surfer could do it with Speed and Hax.


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## fyhb (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Link?



Whis can still go from Kai to Earth in 26 minutes and Beerus is 3/4ths that. Either way it's going to be high-billions to low-trillions just because it's universal travel.


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## God Movement (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Again, this seems to be what I mentioned when I said  as the calc seems to be based off the DB Manga Map which is not to proportion.



This argument is bad and you should feel bad for continuously making it.

The icons themselves are not to scale. The actual dimensions of the globe are to scale. If the top half was not the same size as the bottom it would NOT have been drawn as such. Unless you're about to argue that Enma Daio's palace is actually larger than Kaio's planet? Icons are made larger because they are landmarks and Snake Way stretches far because it needs to be represented as a long path. How else are you supposed to represent icons on a map of UNIVERSAL SCALE. Do you think it's possible to see a 1 million km long path on a universal map? Use some common sense, jesus.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Xcano said:


> Whis can still go from Kai to Earth in 26 minutes and Beerus is 3/4ths that. Either way it's going to be high-billions to low-trillions just because it's universal travel.



Um.....I thought the distance between the two was unspecified?



> This argument is bad and you should feel bad for continuously making it.


lol. Your attempt at making it seem like my argument is bad....is just saying it's bad and then saying stupidity. Nice.



> The icons themselves are not to scale. The actual dimensions of the globe are to scale.


Yeah...no. That doesn't make any sense. It would be like someone drawing a map of the Solar System and then a marking on Earth for a city that looks like it covers nearly the entire planet. It makes no sense.



> If the top half was not the same size as the bottom it would NOT have been drawn as such.


...Evidence? You do know that if he was to draw the two as uneven it would look stupid right? That there's a reason Toriyama would draw it like that regardless of actual sizes.



> Unless you're about to argue that Enma Daio's palace is actually larger than Kaio's planet?


You're the one trying to claim it's someone in proportion when Snake Way covers a far too long section. That is just another example of how it is NOT in proportion.



> Icons are made larger because they are landmarks



This is a map of Japan. Proportional, notice how all the landmarks are marked yet none of it is drastically out of proportion? Notice how no one draws cities on a map of the Solar System?



> and Snake Way stretches far because it needs to be represented as a long path.


So he couldn't have, you know, NOT marked it?



> How else are you supposed to represent icons on a map of UNIVERSAL SCALE.


You wouldn't! You wouldn't draw a proportional map AND include landmarks as small as a planet because it's too drastic a size difference. His map is not too proportion universally. Therefore you need to prove that part IS to proportion. This is shifting the burden of proof.



> Do you think it's possible to see a 1 million km long path on a universal map?


Obviously it's not. Hence why the map is not to proportion. Duh. If it;'s a Universal map, and it has a 1,000,000 Kilometer Long Landmark distinguishable on it, either the map isn't to proportion or the universe is TINY.



> Use some common sense, jesus.


Learn basic logic.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> I'm pretty sure Odin takes it easily and beings weaker the Odin like Silver Surfer could do it with Speed and Hax.


I don't see SS beating a MFTL Universal character with greater strenght than him and somewhat decent hax


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## fyhb (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Um.....I thought the distance between the two was unspecified?



Kai's world is depicted as outside of the universe in like literally every incarnation. Usually above the top-half of the world as well, so they would have to go through an effective universal distance before going through to Earth.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I don't see SS beating a MFTL Universal character with greater strenght than him and somewhat decent hax



He could if he's far faster (which Surfer is) and has hax that ignores durability.



> Kai's world is depicted as outside of the universe in like literally every incarnation. Usually above the top-half of the world as well, so they would have to go through an effective universal distance before going through to Earth.


You can't really use the map, although I guess you could use distance to edge of the universe unless there are some other shenanigans going on.....I'd have to look more into the feat in question.


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## fyhb (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> He could if he's far faster (which Surfer is) and has hax that ignores durability.
> 
> 
> You can't really use the map, although I guess you could use distance to edge of the universe unless there are some other shenanigans going on.....I'd have to look more into the feat in question.



What about Whis being able to reach Earth in 35 minutes from a distance so far Goku could not sense him? We've seen Goku sense shit in the afterlife before IIRC, so Beerus' planet should be farther.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Xcano said:


> What about Whis being able to reach Earth in 35 minutes from a distance so far Goku could not sense him? We've seen Goku sense shit in the afterlife before IIRC, so Beerus' planet should be farther.



I'm sorry am I missing something major? I thought it was like a big thing that God Ki like Whis' Ki couldn't be sensed and thus Goku wouldn't be able to sense him from any distance.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> He could if he's far faster (which Surfer is) and has hax that ignores durability.


The speed is up to debate seing how Whiss should be much faster now that there is proof DBU is the size of a normal universe

so it goes like this
Strenght, DC, Dura, Fighting ability: Bills>SS
Haxx: SS>Bills


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## fyhb (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> I'm sorry am I missing something major? I thought it was like a big thing that God Ki like Whis' Ki couldn't be sensed and thus Goku wouldn't be able to sense him from any distance.



He was trying to sense Vegeta, and this was after Goku gained God Ki so he shouldn't have an issue doing that. Even without that there's still Whis crossing an inter-universal distance in 46(?) minutes to reach the neutral planet for the Universe 6/7 tournament.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> The speed is up to debate



I certainly don't think so



Xcano said:


> He was trying to sense Vegeta, and this was after Goku gained God Ki so he shouldn't have an issue doing that. Even without that there's still Whis crossing an inter-universal distance in 46(?) minutes to reach the neutral planet for the Universe 6/7 tournament.



What kind of speed would that get?

By inter-universal, do we know how far apart the two places were?


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## fyhb (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> I certainly don't think so
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We cannot see Universe 6 or 7 on the neutral planet, so extremely fucking far. Way more than the actual universe's size. I could do a calc if you wanted.


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Xcano said:


> We cannot see Universe 6 or 7 on the neutral planet, so extremely fucking far. Way more than the actual universe's size. I could do a calc if you wanted.



K......I will assume it is correct for now but something about this doesn't seem right.....although I'm not up to date with Super Cosmology of DB.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> I certainly don't think so


You would be right if the universe in DBS was only 4 galaxies


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> You would be right if the universe in DBS was only 4 galaxies



That's not at all what I am talking about. I was talking about how I saw no feats that were at that level that didn't have to do with a clearly out of proportion map. However I am trusting the feats given to me above although they seem off to me. Even so, Silver Surfer has at least comparable speed and can just hax him, as can any of the JL. Beerus's odds against them aren't overwhelming.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> That's not at all what I am talking about. I was talking about how I saw no feats that were at that level that didn't have to do with a clearly out of proportion map. However I am trusting the feats given to me above although they seem off to me. Even so, Silver Surfer has at least comparable speed and can just hax him, as can any of the JL. Beerus's odds against them aren't overwhelming.


I can also say that Bills can seal SS, he may not be as hax as surfer but his hax would work, and aside from the physical force, that Bills has over the Surfer, he can also negate energy, tho negating weird hax energy is up for debate but your average blasting energy is not going to work, so I see Bills beating him more times than not, at least in a 1 on 1 battle


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## Imperator100 (Mar 12, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I can also say that Bills can seal SS, he may not be as hax as surfer but his hax would work, and aside from the physical force, that Bills has over the Surfer, he can also negate energy, tho negating weird hax energy is up for debate but your average blasting energy is not going to work, so I see Bills beating him more times than not, at least in a 1 on 1 battle


Does he have feats of sealing a being that can travel through dimensions.......also Surfer is WAY more hax, he can travel freely through time IIRC. I think he can even freeze time or something. Literally one shot from either would work and with Surfer's Cosmic Awareness I think he would get the first shot, especially with his defensive abilities.

He could also just travel in the Astral Plane where Beerus can do nothing to him. Conversely, he can exist without a body....and can atomize foes ignoring physical durability.


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## Katsuargi (Mar 12, 2016)

The universe fits in the bottom half, meaning you have to solve for the area of the universe within it.

I used guidebook placement from earth and Cacled from the edge of the universe (the spot at the edge of the mortal universe between King Kai's and Earth) and got 2,160,781,804,266,321.

I think GM said this was invalid because it used an incorrect time or some such.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 12, 2016)

Imperator100 said:


> Does he have feats of sealing a being that can travel through dimensions.......also Surfer is WAY more hax, he can travel freely through time IIRC. I think he can even freeze time or something. Literally one shot from either would work and with Surfer's Cosmic Awareness I think he would get the first shot, especially with his defensive abilities.
> 
> He could also just travel in the Astral Plane where Beerus can do nothing to him. Conversely, he can exist without a body....and can atomize foes ignoring physical durability.


I know SS is more hax I pointed that out,  Surfers time travel isn't something he can just do like that it takes him moments to reach the speed that allows him to time travel, something Bills is not going to give him, I don't get how the CA is going to help him he really doesn't needed Bills is not going to run or anything, I see the fight going the same way he was fighting Odin in all honesty Surfer just getting overpowered 

The only thing I'm not sure is the astral plane thing I'm not sure I have seen that before


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## Atem (Mar 13, 2016)

Nate Grey.

He is way too fast when he starts operating in planck time, and he can shut down Beerus with his telepathy. It helps that if he dies he can just possess Beerus or create a new body.

Seriously, he can make Beerus lose control of his qi and then beat on him with his bare hands. Since without that qi Beerus is going to lose a lot of his power.


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## Byrd (Mar 13, 2016)

Black Vortex Kitty can do it...

Hell she might give the verse itself a run for its money


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 13, 2016)

Savan said:


> Nate Grey.
> 
> He is way too fast when he starts operating in planck time, and he can shut down Beerus with his telepathy. It helps that if he dies he can just possess Beerus or create a new body.
> 
> Seriously, he can make Beerus lose control of his qi and then beat on him with his bare hands. Since without that qi Beerus is going to lose a lot of his power.



Wait really? I just remember him stopping time


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## Atem (Mar 13, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Wait really? I just remember him stopping time



He didn't stop time. He was walking "between moments in time," and things like planck length are mentioned. This was in Dark Avengers. 

Nate Grey and Ares fighting there changed the time-line too. So, it doubles as something that can alter a time-line to an extent.

He stops time in an area in X-Man before he became Shaman.


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## Finalbeta (Mar 13, 2016)

Rune King Thor or Galactus 

Beerus is high-skyfather level IMO


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## Katsuargi (Mar 13, 2016)

Beerus runs into the same problem all DBZ characters tend to.

They don't have near the hax of 90+% of other fictional characters in their weight class.

Beerus can blow up a universe, and is some stupid degree of faster than light. The only hax I recall him having is energy nullification.

Getting a generally agreed upon speed is something that needs to happen, because Speed + hax most people at the, hell, herald level and up will do him in.

So the vast majority of DBZ vs. boil down to so variation of:

1: Are you faster than Beerus enough to speed blitz? Y-2 N-4
2: Do you have hax he can't deal with? Y-3 N-4
3: Victory!
4: Can you tank or otherwise survive the Universe blowing up and / or getting hit with universe busting energy? Y-6 N-5
5: Lose!
6: Congrats! You're in an exceptionally small minority of characters at this level that can throw down without it being stomp / stomped.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 13, 2016)

Savan said:


> He didn't stop time. He was walking "between moments in time," and things like planck length are mentioned. This was in Dark Avengers.
> 
> Nate Grey and Ares fighting there changed the time-line too. So, it doubles as something that can alter a time-line to an extent.
> 
> He stops time in an area in X-Man before he became Shaman.



Wait is there where the Sentry apears? 

because I remember something that Ares is above time because he is the god of war but don't recall planck time


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## Atem (Mar 13, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Wait is there where the Sentry apears?
> 
> because I remember something that Ares is above time because he is the god of war but don't recall planck time





You can find the scans here, and it's been calculated too.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 13, 2016)

Savan said:


> You can find the scans here, and it's been calculated too.



Yeah I remember that I'm like 90% sure that's where Nate said he had beaten Galactus with Sentrys help, it's a really weird feat in all honesty, He said his powers can't affect Ares because he is a god and then Ares mentions that time doesn't limit him so I never took the planck time seriously and only took the time thing in consideration, but it looks like you guys think different from me, different interpretation I guess


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## Divell (Mar 13, 2016)

Dr Doom with Prep.


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## Blαck (Mar 13, 2016)

Any of the hell lords should be able to take him out.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 13, 2016)

Blαck said:


> Any of the hell lords should be able to take him out.



If they're in their realm sure I can see it but not outside, well perhaps Mephisto


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## Blαck (Mar 14, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> If they're in their realm sure I can see it but not outside, well perhaps Mephisto



They don't have to be in their realms to soulfuck him, though Mephisto seems to be the odd one out in that scenario.


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 14, 2016)

Blαck said:


> They don't have to be in their realms to soulfuck him, though Mephisto seems to be the odd one out in that scenario.



Perhaps but I can also say that Bills can blast them, he outclasses them in that regard, what do you mean he is the odd one out?  he has the best showings of all the Hell-lords


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## Blαck (Mar 14, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Perhaps but I can also say that Bills can blast them, he outclasses them in that regard, what do you mean he is the odd one out?  he has the best showings of all the Hell-lords



Beerus would have go for the kill asap against Blackheart or dorm, otherwise they got an entire bag of tricks aside from soul fucking waiting on him.  As for the meshipsto thing, he can't take souls outside his realm without a deal of some sort(usually at least)

Also, is the universal beerus feat, like immediate universal destruction? Or is it like kid buus galaxy feat, gradual?


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## Katsuargi (Mar 14, 2016)

It'd be listed as multi-galaxy if it was an over time thing.


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## Iwandesu (Mar 14, 2016)

Beerus vs champa was in process of destroying their both universes 
It was tecnically going to be over time but everything would be done via one big explosion


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 15, 2016)

Blαck said:


> Beerus would have go for the kill asap against Blackheart or dorm, otherwise they got an entire bag of tricks aside from soul fucking waiting on him.  As for the meshipsto thing, he can't take souls outside his realm without a deal of some sort(usually at least)
> 
> Also, is the universal beerus feat, like immediate universal destruction? Or is it like kid buus galaxy feat, gradual?



That's the same for the other hell-lords, from what I remember Hela can only take souls from Asgardians and Pluto from olympians and so on

And I do see Bills going for the kill in the first place this is in his character, remember that he decides the lives of people and their planets by the food they have

Bills universal is pretty much a one-shot


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## Blαck (Mar 15, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> That's the same for the other hell-lords, from what I remember Hela can only take souls from Asgardians and Pluto from olympians and so on
> 
> And I do see Bills going for the kill in the first place this is in his character, remember that he decides the lives of people and their planets by the food they have
> 
> Bills universal is pretty much a one-shot



Dorm, satannish, magik(with soul blade) and Blackheart can take souls whenever they please unless their under some massive pis. As for the oneshot, they could always bfr him or the attack, their speed should be comparable if not higher except for magik(unless she goes fukk darkchylde)


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 15, 2016)

Blαck said:


> Dorm, satannish, magik(with soul blade) and Blackheart can take souls whenever they please unless their under some massive pis. As for the oneshot, they could always bfr him or the attack, their speed should be comparable if not higher except for magik(unless she goes fukk darkchylde)



I really doubt any of the hell lords can compare with Bills speed

I don't see how the can BFR a blast with th power to destroy the universe


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## Finalbeta (Mar 15, 2016)

Tyrant should possibly also


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## Byrd (Mar 15, 2016)

I still say Kitty Pryde... She literally has become one of the strongest X-men currently...

She should be around Dark-Phoneix Level or a bit higher


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## Divell (Mar 15, 2016)

Physically, dudes like Thor, Hulk, Superman, New 52 Wonder Woman, etc, etc, etc.
In what comes to Power I would say guys like Odin, Galactus, etc, etc, etc are a exellent match for him, they would easily win though. I would say Odin Force Thor is the perfect match for Beerus.


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## magicalsieg (Mar 15, 2016)

Dormammu oneshots Beerus


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## cingetorix (Mar 15, 2016)

Arm Fall Off Boy


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## Blαck (Mar 15, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> I really doubt any of the hell lords can compare with Bills speed
> 
> I don't see how the can BFR a blast with th power to destroy the universe



Um, dormammu has fought Odin, Galactus and eternity without getting blitzed, he's well above beerus speed. Also the universe buster is a single shot now? Thought it was some charged shit


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 15, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Tyrant should possibly also



Yes but he is not the weakest, he is actually really above if you take in account that he was made to be equal to Galactus



Divell said:


> Physically, dudes like Thor, Hulk, Superman, New 52 Wonder Woman, etc, etc, etc.
> In what comes to Power I would say guys like Odin, Galactus, etc, etc, etc are a exellent match for him, they would easily win though. I would say Odin Force Thor is the perfect match for Beerus.



There is no way that the characters you mentioned are physically stronger than Bills, he would just out-brute them all



Blαck said:


> Um, dormammu has fought Odin, Galactus and eternity without getting blitzed, he's well above beerus speed. Also the universe buster is a single shot now? Thought it was some charged shit



But Dormamu is not a Hell Lord, he is well above them


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## Blαck (Mar 15, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> But Dormamu is not a Hell Lord, he is well above them



He goes to a meeting of hell lords to discuss hell lord stuff 

I'd post the scan but I'm on my phone


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 15, 2016)

Blαck said:


> He goes to a meeting of hell lords to discuss hell lord stuff
> 
> I'd post the scan but I'm on my phone



Yeah but Marvel has a really weird structure of their Hell, the same way there are death gods, there are fear lords and hell lords but Dormamu doesn' t belong to either of them, the same as Cyttorak

Think of it like this if you collect or need souls in your realm, you're basically a hell lord


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## Blαck (Mar 16, 2016)

Worldbreaker said:


> Yeah but Marvel has a really weird structure of their Hell, the same way there are death gods, there are fear lords and hell lords but Dormamu doesn' t belong to either of them, the same as Cyttorak
> 
> Think of it like this if you collect or need souls in your realm, you're basically a hell lord



Hmm, well I'd still consider him one due to the meeting and whatnot but whatever the case he takes down beerus.


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## Deer Lord (Mar 16, 2016)

Dorm isn't a hell lord, and I'm pretty sure that he fucking created Mephisto and Satannish (unless that has been retconed)
Regardless, he's a high-skyfather level being comparable to Odin at least
with all the hax and power that goes along with that.

So you're going to have to go lower.


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## Blαck (Mar 16, 2016)

Deer Lord said:


> Dorm isn't a hell lord, and I'm pretty sure that he fucking created Mephisto and Satannish (unless that has been retconed)
> Regardless, he's a high-skyfather level being comparable to Odin at least
> with all the hax and power that goes along with that.
> 
> So you're going to have to go lower.



You're correct he did create satannish.  Anyhow, speed equal true legion and Franklin could take him.


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## Deer Lord (Mar 16, 2016)

I thought this thread is about beerus


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## Blαck (Mar 16, 2016)

Deer Lord said:


> I thought this thread is about beerus



It is         .


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## Finalbeta (Mar 16, 2016)

Dark Phoenix possibly


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## Venice (Mar 16, 2016)

Thanos, maybe.


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## Finalbeta (Mar 17, 2016)

What Thanos?


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 17, 2016)

A Thanos without any type of boost would loose IMO


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## Byrd (Mar 17, 2016)

Depends if he has his death immunity


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## Worldbreaker (Mar 19, 2016)

He may not be able to kill him but he can K.O. him


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