# Who can avoid Totsuka Blitz?



## Itachі (Nov 29, 2014)

A half dead, near blind Itachi was able to blitz a fresh Orochimaru with Totsuka in clear sight. 

Who could avoid Itachi's blitz? (Excluding God-tiers) 

*Scenario 1:*

Itachi is sick but as he was during the beginning of his battle with Sasuke.

*Scenario 2:*

Itachi is in the same condition as he was when he sealed Orochimaru.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 29, 2014)

I'd say Hiraishin, Sage Mode, Gate, and Lightning Cloak users are really the only ones capable of physically evading the speed of the blade. Obito can go intangible, obviously. Juub Jins too, of course.

The databook and Zetsu called the blade a flawless and invincible offense, but people will undoubtedly argue that any Kage level can dodge it. I find that funny, but it doesn't really matter.​


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## Zef (Nov 29, 2014)

Several people can avoid it Even fodders; it's a big ass sword that's hard to miss unless you're distracted.


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## Ashi (Nov 29, 2014)

Anyone that's Elite Jonin level+


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## Dominus (Nov 29, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Some people though i.e. Hussein, SSM, etc. will argue that *any ninja that is mobile* can dodge it.​



Fixed. **


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## Sadgoob (Nov 29, 2014)

^ See what I mean. People are pretty hilarious.​


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## Trojan (Nov 29, 2014)

Dominus said:


> Fixed. **



You know way too much. That scares me. 
I honestly was going to say that. :rofl



> Some people though i.e. Hussein, SSM, etc. will argue that any Kage level can dodge it. I feel that that opinion willfully ignores the immense prestige Kishi felt for the blade, Itachi's ultimate weapon.



It does not ignore anything. Both Nagato and Oro were not moving.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 29, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I'd say Hiraishin, Sage Mode, Gate, and Lightning Cloak users are really the only ones capable of physically evading the speed of the blade. Obito can go intangible, obviously. Juub Jins too, duh.



I don't even know what to say.

Jounins with good reactions and speed can dodge it. Around Asuma is where I'd say the lowest people dodge it 10/10 (straight one attack, not multiple swings).


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## Kazekage94 (Nov 29, 2014)

Anyone who can fly or anyone with a 2 or higher in speed

Better yet anyone that can sushin


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## Complete_Ownage (Nov 29, 2014)

I don't think it's as "fast" or as "slow" as some people think. I Would say it's on the med-fast end

Minato & Tobirama - FTG & Superior Sensin
Obito - Kamui
Gated Gai
Third Raikage - Fourth Raikage - Reflexes or Amped shroud
Muu - Sensing + Reflexes
SM Users 
Naruto & Sasuke
Nagato - when not controlled by kabuto

First few I thought of


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2014)

People with higher reaction speed than Orochimaru and Nagato.


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## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

Kcm Naruto, base Minato without* hiriashin, shrouded Ei and base Guy.. Characters in this speed tier.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 29, 2014)

Orochimaru couldn't even react in time, but Kabuto could and Nagato supposedly should have been able to, so it's pretty much only the tier 5ers that have a chance with raw movement speed and reaction time.

Basically, guys like Oro, Deidara, Oonoki, Muu, Sasori, and anyone slower get blitzed.


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## Hexa (Nov 29, 2014)

Kabuto reacted to Nagato being hit with Totsuka after the sealing had already taken place. "Direct control" mode I think is much less direct than people think.


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## Zynn (Nov 29, 2014)

^Nah, it's cause Kabuto has two modes of control, see. One is like Orochimaru's where he control what ET subjects do completely, and the other one is by merely giving them a prime directive while keeping their intelligence, personality, and fighting style intact, the directive here being 'fight and kill the alliance shinobi to the best of your ability'.


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## Hexa (Nov 29, 2014)

Yeah, but people think the "direct control" mode means that Kabuto controls everything the person does to the slightest detail.  It's never said and doesn't make sense for a number of reasons (one of them here, where Kabuto has a panel showing him sensing that Nagato was sealed well after he was hit with Totsuka which broke the direct control).


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## ShadowReaper (Nov 29, 2014)

Sauske(EMS to Rinnengan-Sharingan)
Nardo(starting from Sage to Ashura mode)
Raikage(3-rd and 4-th)
Any Jinchuriki in Bijuu form
Minato(Shunshin and Hiraishin)
Tobirama(Hiraishin)
Madara(EMS to Juudara)
Hashirama with SM
Guy with gates released(7-th and 8-th)
Jiraya in SM(doubtful,but possible)
Prime Nagato(not crippled)
Kabuto in SM(probably does manage)
Kakashi with 2 MS(same as Obito)
Obito with Izanagi or Kamui
Danzo with Izanagi
Rikudo and his brother
Kaguya


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 29, 2014)

Hexa said:


> Kabuto reacted to Nagato being hit with Totsuka after the sealing had already taken place. "Direct control" mode I think is much less direct than people think.



Yeah I don't think Kabuto was directly controlling Nagato, as he was controlling Mu. 
Because he went "wtf" after Nagato was sealed. If he was directly controlling him, he'd probably know what just happened. 

He simply erased his personality and issued direct orders, he didn't "puppeteer" him.


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## Zynn (Nov 29, 2014)

Hexa said:


> Yeah, but people think the "direct control" mode means that Kabuto controls everything the person does to the slightest detail.  It's never said and doesn't make sense for a number of reasons (one of them here, where Kabuto has a panel showing him sensing that Nagato was sealed well after he was hit with Totsuka which broke the direct control).



That was probably just him being distracted by an event(s) happening simultaneously in another location(s) and thus resulting in a very critical lapse of attention. No matter what Kabuto'd like to believe (in his arrogance), no human would be capable of controlling/supervising such a huge number of subjects without having his attention averted from time to time.


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## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

^ unless he controlled them through a hive mind type control.. Where the army becomes an extension of his will.


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 29, 2014)

Speed stars will most likely avoid it with intel.

1. Minato
2. Tobirama.
3. Lee
4. Gai
5. Sasuke
6. naruto
7. Ei
8. Bee
9. 3rd Raikage

Obito and Kakashi can also avoid it by Kamui


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## Zynn (Nov 29, 2014)

SSMG said:


> ^ unless he controlled them through a hive mind type control.. Where the army becomes an extension of his will.



That's essentially what his second type of control, the one where he merely gives ET subjects a prime directive while leaving anything else (personality, intelligence, knowledge, fighting style) intact. His first mode of mind control is identical to what Orochimaru used in the invasion, where the subjects are controlled in a complete manner. 

Also, if I remember correctly, a hive mind means collective intelligences. Having one person control a plethora of immortal shinobi zombies does not count as a hive mind.


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## ueharakk (Nov 29, 2014)

what does itachi's physical state have to do with anything when susanoo is the one who's doing all the physical movements?

As long as itachi has sharingan precog, he does as just as well in S1 as he does in S2.  People the avoid his totsuka blitz are people with super reactions like 3T hebi sasuke and up, or if they have super speed like hebi sasuke and up.


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## Zynn (Nov 29, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> what does itachi's physical state have to do with anything when susanoo is the one who's doing all the physical movements?
> 
> As long as itachi has sharingan precog, he does as just as well in S1 as he does in S2.  People the avoid his totsuka blitz are people with super reactions like 3T hebi sasuke and up, or if they have super speed like hebi sasuke and up.



Maybe because OP already specified that the physical state Itachi is in in this thread is not only his half dead body, but also near blind eyes? Orochimaru was easily stabbed because he was in a big ass snake's mouth (which makes him easier to spot) and too busy gloating instead of keep moving, as opposed to human sized, mobile and agile opponents?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 30, 2014)

Itachi has never used this in open conditions, against an opponent who cared to dodge.

Orochimaru watched himself get stabbed and had no reaction other than saying, "swords won't work on me kukuku."

Nagato happened from behind a smokescreen, and his eyes also changed back to Nagato control before we see if he was stabbed or not.  So it's impossible to know if Kabuto couldn't react, or Nagato regained control and helped himself get stabbed, in the same way he let himself burn in ameterasu until Kabuto took over and made him use ST.  Compound this with Nagato's stated but maybe maybe not mobility issues, and it's a bad example to scale from.

I'm inclined to say Orochimaru could have avoided the stab if he knew he needed to.  But he didn't, so I really don't know.  Which also means I have no baseline or idea to scale off of.


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## ARGUS (Nov 30, 2014)

No one could evade totsuka 
No one


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 30, 2014)

Orochimaru's arrogance was what got him sealed, making it almost impossible to judge the extent of Totsuka's speed. It's obviously quick of course, but I don't know how it got a reputation as being wtf fast.

Probably anyone with above average speed should be capable of avoiding it, at least for a while. Their stamina and taijutsu ability would contribute to how well they can evade it too. Poor taijutsu ability might make the target easy pickings for Totsuka even if they could try jump out of the way.

Anyone with large speed boosts like Sage Mode, Gates, Chakra shrouds, Shunshin etc. can evade it too.​​


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## Invictus-Kun (Nov 30, 2014)

Average slashing speed imo.

It was just big for a human, so it's easy to hit anyone.

But, Can Totsuka really pierce through 3rd Raikage?


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## Amol (Nov 30, 2014)

Exactly when Totsuka blitzed anyone ?

In Manga it had been used two times and both targets were stationary.
Oro paid prize of his arrogance (what is a sword going to do me,kukuku!)
And Nagato was
1) Distracted and soul tugging with KCM Naruto
2) He had weak legs
3) He wasn't in control of his own body so it is bullshit to say anything about  Nagato's reaction speed.
It is a fan made thing that Totsuka has any extraordinary speed.
It is just a sword with sealing power.
One just need to put bias aside for moment.


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## Corax (Nov 30, 2014)

No one


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 30, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> But, Can Totsuka really pierce through 3rd Raikage?



Nah, I doubt it. At least, Totsuka Blade's feats up until this point haven't proved it could.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 30, 2014)

Amol said:


> Exactly when Totsuka blitzed anyone ?
> 
> In Manga it had been used two times and both targets were stationary.
> Oro paid prize of his arrogance (what is a sword going to do me,kukuku!)
> ...



The idea comes from it crossing Kishi's idea of long distance in one panel, or between panels, which at the time hadn't really happened before with jutsu.  So it was called a totsuga "blitz."


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## Sadgoob (Nov 30, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Itachi has never used this in open conditions, against an opponent who cared to dodge.
> 
> Orochimaru watched himself get stabbed and had no reaction other than saying, "swords won't work on me kukuku."
> 
> ...



Et tu POW? Like you said above, the way Kishimoto portrayed the Totsuka as suddenly appearing in an opponent between panels, with only the opponent suddenly jerking in surprise, both times, indicates that it's an exceptionally fast attack.



And more to the point, which people to this day ignore, _Nagato was not in the dust cloud_. He was looking at where the blade would have *emerged* from the cloud a _20 meters_ away. If it weren't an exceptionally fast attack, he still could deflect it with ST.

Recall: a much slower reacting Deva Puppet was able to deflect Kakashi's surprise blitzes from inches away and easily countered Safe Naruto's FRS feints. The Totsuka is therefore *hugely* faster if it bypassed the real Nagato's reactions from 20m.

If people acknowledge this evidence, then they would agree that there is *zero* chance of people that aren't incredibly developed or enhanced in reaction speed to physically evade it. And considering the v1 lightning cloak feats, they don't make the cut at all. 

Hence why I'd realistically say only god tiers can physically evade it, and everybody else would need to use defensive jutsu like Hiraishin, Kamui.... Shinra Tensei to avoid the Totsuka.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 30, 2014)

I tihnk the implication with the whole scene between Nagato and Itachi's Totsuka Blade isn't that the latter's attack was too fast for the Rinnegan user to react, but rather, Nagato was literally *way too slow* to actually evade it.

Kabuto's reaction following Nagato's sealing is all the proof we really need. '_Damn Nagato, he wasn't mobile enough_' implies that his physical speed was more to blame than the actual speed of Itachi's Susanoo itself. Notice he doesn't deign to praise his adversary in the manner of, '_his attack was just too fast_!', or '_such speed_!'  

It was fairly obvious that Kabuto/Nagato saw the blade coming. But the former tried getting his puppet to physically dodge the incoming offensive instead of doing something practical like Shinra Tensei and, well, clearly that didn't work. This is more a feat to chalk up to Kabuto's *stupidity* rather than the impressiveness of Itachi's Susanoo.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 30, 2014)

That's not my point though. Nagato didn't use ST to try and deflect it, and we've seen _over and over and over_ that if Nagato and Deva can't react physically, they use telekinesis to deflect or otherwise control the situation. The Totsuka bypassed that with speed.

However, Kabuto's point would be that if Nagato mobile, then he could have been moving and Itachi wouldn't have known where to aim his sword _because Itachi was the [non-sensor] in the dust cloud, essentially stabbing in the dark._

(And Kabuto was shown to use ST against Bee and Naruto to handle threats, and according to Naruto, at a much greater reaction speed than what we saw previously from Deva Path.) 

Besides that, we saw Nagato move against Bee and move very well. Prime Nagato would have been faster, but Nagato _could_ move nevertheless. He still wouldn't be able to move faster than he could use a defensive ST, however. My point.

And the Totsuka's hype as an "invincible" or "flawless" offense basically in itself denotes that normal ninja wouldn't be able to simple evade it. The feat of trumping Nagato ST reaction basically reinforces that, but of course, people are wont to rationalize it away.
​


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## Turrin (Nov 30, 2014)

Are you just looking for characters that can dodge it or characters that can defend against it. If it's just characters that can dodge then it would be:

1) Killer-B - V1/V2
2) Minato - FTG
3) Tobirama  - FTG
4) SM Kabuto - SM Sensing 
5) SM Jiraiya - Kawazu Kumite
6) Obito - Kamui
7) Kakashi - Kamui
8) EI - RNY
9) Sandaime - RNY
10) Lee - Gates
11) Yagura - V1/V2
12) Gin/Kin - V2
13) Pain - Shared Vision/Rinnegan
14) Han - Futton: Kairiki Musō
15) Onoki - Super Light Weight + High-Speed Flight
16) Sakura - Byakgou Enhanced Speed

Characters that Might be able to

1) Shisui - Shunshin Hype
2) Mu - Sensing + Flight
3) Gaara - Gourd Sand Flight Speed
4) Sasori - Heart Container Switch
5) Tsunade - Byakugou Enhanced Speed
6) Yondaime-Kazekage - Gold Dust Flight Speed (Assuming he can fly on it)
7) Prime-Hanzo (Hype)
8) Mifune - Super High Physical abilities
9) Haishi - W/ Byakugan 

I'm probably forgetting a few of the maybes, I'll have to think about it some more.


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## Itachі (Nov 30, 2014)

*I mean characters who can physically dodge it, Jutsu like Kamui and FTG don't count. Incarnations and modes count though, like SM Naruto or V2 Ei.*


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Nov 30, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> ​




Am I the only one who thinks it looks like Nagato's hiccuping here?




			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> * I mean characters who can physically dodge it, Jutsu like Kamui and FTG don't count. Incarnations and modes count though, like SM Naruto or V2 Ei.*



Do you consider Gates to be a mode or a jutsu?  I would say Gai with 6+ Gates active could probably dodge it, and also Raikage with his shroud up.  I don't remember whether Third Raikage was said to be insanely fast or "just" insanely strong and durable.  If he had the speed of his successor, he could probably dodge it too.  If not, it likely still wouldn't pierce him, but I would consider that "tanking" rather than "avoiding."​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 30, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Et tu POW? Like you said above, the way Kishimoto portrayed the Totsuka as suddenly appearing in an opponent between panels, with only the opponent suddenly jerking in surprise, both times, indicates that it's an exceptionally fast attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chicken jerk is anime.  I've been iffy on their interpretations of Kishi's open and or insane events, since they added stuff like lightening to the roof Itachi flew out of in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight to explain how they got onto the roof.  It could well be the startle from regaining his senses, since edos stutter when they get taken over or released.

Nagato is also weird with his ST's, and if under Kabuto control, ST really doesn't seem to be Kabuto's go to, even though it was Nagato's favorite body and power.  

Either way, I still wouldn't call that a jerk in surprise if it was a jerk stab.  I'd call it the jerk of getting stabbed.  I won't say it's slow.  Tosuga has a _3.5_ in speed.  That isn't _slow_.  Oh wrong character.  Uhm, yeah, I don't think it's slow, but there are too many ways Kishi could have gone about emphasizing speed that he didn't do, and the situations have too many iffy bits for me to simply accept Strategos brand evidence.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 30, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Chicken jerk is anime.



No, check out the manga page where Nagato's stabbed one more time. We see Nagato vibrating like an eager dildo before the sword is shown through him. Hand to God.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Nagato is also weird with his ST's, and if under Kabuto control, ST really doesn't seem to be Kabuto's go to, even though it was Nagato's favorite body and power.



It seemed like Kabuto's go-to considering he opened with it against Naruto and Bee (unlike the real Nagato,) used it to flick Bee away, and then immediately used Chibaku Tensei against Itachi.

All things considered, Kabuto used the Deva Path far more aggressively than Nagato ever did, and displayed better strategic use of Nagato's ability than Nagato to boot.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> for me to simply accept Strategos brand evidence.



Strategos brand evidence is best evidence. ​


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## IchLiebe (Nov 30, 2014)

It was shown that Deva's powers go on cooldown after using big techniques like CST and CT.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 30, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Et tu POW? Like you said above, the way Kishimoto portrayed the Totsuka as suddenly appearing in an opponent between panels, with only the opponent suddenly jerking in surprise, both times, indicates that it's an exceptionally fast attack.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What he said. 
Both Nagato and Orochimaru should have been able to see the blade coming from they were, and yet weren't able to react.

"Oro could dodge it be he didn't" get out with that BS. Orochimaru was impaled mid sentence, and his shock clearly shows he couldn't see the sword coming. He wasn't like "heh" he was more like "da fock?!?"

Same goes for Nagato. 

To my understanding, sword can extend, and it does pretty fast.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 30, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> No, check out the manga page where Nagato's stabbed one more time. We see Nagato vibrating like an eager dildo before the sword is shown through him. Hand to God.​



Either way, I still wouldn't call that a jerk in surprise if it was a jerk stab. I'd call it the jerk of getting stabbed. 



> It seemed like Kabuto's go-to considering he opened with it against Naruto and Bee (unlike the real Nagato,) used it to flick Bee away, and then immediately used Chibaku Tensei against Itachi.
> 
> All things considered, Kabuto used the Deva Path far more aggressively than Nagato ever did, and displayed better strategic use of Nagato's ability than Nagato to boot.​



Aggressive use is not defensive use, and often comes at the expense of it.  If Real Nagato's primary concern is spamming ST defensively at every little thing that comes his way, say, for instance, a smoke bomb, then he's going to react faster with a ST than Kabuto.

If Kabuto's default plan is to blast people with ST, and his defensive instinct is grab the offender Asura arms, or evade like the slick little medic he is (blah blah blah, Kabuto is a master of evasion), and relied mainly on shared vision (or maybe he figured the Rinnegods eyes could see through a dust cloud) to pull it off, he's worse off with bad legs even if he's got a push.  



> Strategos brand evidence is best evidence. ​



It is the best in it's own category.  One I hold close to my heart.

Also I'm a bit disappointed in the Itachi fandom.  I wanted to hear that the shudder _was_ an attempt at ST, but totsuga is an ethereal blade that can't be countered by physical means.


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## Trojan (Nov 30, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What he said.
> Both Nagato and Orochimaru should have been able to see the blade coming from they were, and yet weren't able to react.
> .



Wasn't there a big ass screen of smoke because of the CT though? Also, it's not like if Nagato could move to begin with, nor was he able to control himself even if he wanted to. 

and this


> And more to the point, which people to this day ignore, Nagato was not in the dust cloud. He was looking at where the blade would have emerged from the cloud a 20 meters away. If it weren't an exceptionally fast attack, he still could deflect it with ST.



Is only an assumption lol. He was only seeing that way because THEY were in that side before the CT even start. @>@


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 1, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Wasn't there a big ass screen of smoke because of the CT though? Also, it's not like if Nagato could move to begin with, nor was he able to control himself even if he wanted to.



The sword came through the dust cloud, but there was a considerable distance between the cloud and Nagato, so he should have been able to see the sword as soon as it emerged from it.


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## Icegaze (Dec 1, 2014)

Though Hussain and ichibe flat out have very weak arguments whenever itachi is brought up I would say they have a point. It was only used against stationary characters 
However Danzo did describe susanoo as a super fast technique based on that I would say it should be easily able to mow down asuma level hwowvee won't come close to touching the likes of minato 

I mean it's a super fast jutsu using itachi pre-cog quite obviously only people on his level or above can avoid it


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 1, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Though Hussain and ichibe flat out have very weak arguments whenever itachi is brought up I would say they have a point. It was only used against stationary characters
> However Danzo did describe susanoo as a super fast technique based on that I would say it should be easily able to mow down asuma level hwowvee won't come close to touching the likes of minato
> 
> I mean it's a super fast jutsu using itachi pre-cog quite obviously only people on his level or above can avoid it



Every person is stationary untill they start moving 

The thing is, reacting and moving aren't the same thing. One follows the other. You have to react firs to be able to make a move, and physical movement isn't the only way of reacting.


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## Icegaze (Dec 1, 2014)

Well grimmy while I think it is fast because susanoo was stated to be super fast by Danzo I do not think it's something Nagato cannot react to or anyone on that level. Quite obviously the likes of asuma would never see the blade coming I mean he couldn't even react to itachi movement 

So the way I see it anyone kisame and above should be able to react 
Anything below dies pathetically and quickly


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 1, 2014)

Well ofc, I don't think Totsuka can consistently tag Nagato in every situation. But circumstances can be created that he cannot even react to it, as we've seen in the manga. 

And my main concern is to invalidate bullshit excuses like "Nagato was able to react but couldn't move", "orochimaru was able to dodge it but chose not to."

The thing is, people make the mistake of assuming that having sensory abilities make certain characters omnipotent and that they can consistently dodge everything under every circumstance. Which has been proven wrong over and over again.


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## Icegaze (Dec 1, 2014)

We agree but you must realize 
Most of those people are hussain, ichibe and turrin 
None can be taken seriously the second you talk about itachi especially ichi who has a vendata of sorts against itachi


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## iJutsu (Dec 2, 2014)

Totsuka isn't really a sword. It shoots out of a gourd and extends to the distance it needs to travel. You don't swing at people with it. It won't be that easy to avoid it. It's more of a gun than a sword.


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## Icegaze (Dec 2, 2014)

^Decent analysis
But even as a stab fast ninja should still avoid it


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## IchLiebe (Dec 2, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Though Hussain and ichibe flat out have very weak arguments whenever itachi is brought up I would say they have a point. It was only used against stationary characters
> However Danzo did describe susanoo as a super fast technique based on that I would say it should be easily able to mow down asuma level hwowvee won't come close to touching the likes of minato
> 
> I mean it's a super fast jutsu using itachi pre-cog quite obviously only people on his level or above can avoid it



Lol. Fucking really. Your arguments are SHIT. You never have more than 2 paragraphs...Never. I wouldn't even say you argue. I don't make much of an argument for threads such as this. There are plenty of characters that can dodge it. Look who hasn't; A cocky arrogant Orochimaru using his strongest technique, and a crippled Nagato being controlled by Kabuto immediately after using CT which should cool ST down as it is Deva paths most powerful technique(When CST was shown all paths were knocked out for a period of time). My God what speedsters those were i forgot they were as fast as an average jounin(Orochimaru never showed any type of speed), Nagato did show some speed after using ST on Itachi and crew, but undetermined how he crossed that distance that fast and hard to calculate how fast he moved. Asura was shown to have rocket boosters(might've been anime only, if so disregard).

When did Danzo ever state that Susanoo was a super fast technique? maybe the arrow it shot, but he was even able to deflect it in time even though he couldn't control Mokuton that well, but never SUSANOO itself. Danzo was also tearing through it.

And you are so ignorant that you think Itachi has precognition when infact it just heigtened perception which anyone is capable of doing with training.

There is no difference in Susanoo swinging a sword and a big Choji swinging a sword, attack speed wise(technique is a different thing).


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## IchLiebe (Dec 2, 2014)

iJutsu said:


> Totsuka isn't really a sword. It shoots out of a gourd and extends to the distance it needs to travel. You don't swing at people with it. It won't be that easy to avoid it. It's more of a gun than a sword.



NO.

Itachi clearly has to form the sword, which he did both times. Never was the item projected out of the bottle straight at someone. During Orochimaru it was clearly shown that once it comes out of the bottle then it has to form. Also how do we calc how fast it extends? Do we use Gin(from Bleach) or Orochimaru's grass cutter sword as an example? I would say we would have to go with the same rate of which Enma and Orochimaru's sword extends. We have never seen something(especially) Totsuka shoot something as fast as a gun. Its extension is no faster than Sasuke's arrow, as in my opinion it would make no sense that Itachi's sword can extend faster than Sasuke's arrow.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 2, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> We agree but you must realize
> Most of those people are hussain, ichibe and turrin
> None can be taken seriously the second you talk about itachi especially ichi who has a vendata of sorts against itachi



Yea I do have a vendetta against Itachi. He isn't that great and threads like this just fuel my hate. Blatant bullshit. Since Nagato and Orochimaru didn't dodge than anything less than v2 A, FTG, Naruto, etc can't dodge/evade it. Not to mention that Itachi fans want to powerscale his abilities but not that of anyone elses. Most of their arguments are based on portrayal and hype.


Icegaze- can't be taken serious at all, doesn't even make sense.
Niku- FKN PLZ. So far up Itachi's ass.

Need I go on an on about the people who bring weak arguments that aren't supported by evidence yet most of the community holds them as a God of the BD...Like seriously look at the member of the month, the only one that I say consistently uses good arguments is Turrin.

1 thing you can't say about me though is that I half ass my arguments when I get spurred up. And in most arguments I shut you down.

Everyone knows I hate Itachi, I make it very apparent and do not try to hide it but if you want to use that as an excuse to disregard my arguments then you must also disregard the ones who are biased for Itachi.


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## Bonly (Dec 2, 2014)

C-C-Combo Breaker! As for who can dodge it, it's hard to say. Orochi got hit mid sentence but Orochi is a cocky mofo so it could've been so fast that Orochi couldn't do anything or maybe he didn't care to attempt to dodge it and we all know bout Nagato so yeah. If I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say people decently above V1 A in speed maybe


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## iJutsu (Dec 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> NO.
> 
> Itachi clearly has to form the sword, which he did both times. Never was the item projected out of the bottle straight at someone. During Orochimaru it was clearly shown that once it comes out of the bottle then it has to form. Also how do we calc how fast it extends? Do we use Gin(from Bleach) or Orochimaru's grass cutter sword as an example? I would say we would have to go with the same rate of which Enma and Orochimaru's sword extends. We have never seen something(especially) Totsuka shoot something as fast as a gun. Its extension is no faster than Sasuke's arrow, as in my opinion it would make no sense that Itachi's sword can extend faster than Sasuke's arrow.


Who said it was a gun? I said it's more like a gun than a sword.

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Oro and Itachi were pretty close to each other when it came out. If it's not as fast as Sasuke's arrow, then Susanoo would've been wrecked swinging a bottle around.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 2, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Well grimmy while I think it is fast because susanoo was stated to be super fast by Danzo I do not think it's something Nagato cannot react to or anyone on that level. Quite obviously the likes of asuma would never see the blade coming I mean he couldn't even react to itachi movement
> 
> So the way I see it anyone kisame and above should be able to react
> Anything below dies pathetically and quickly



Kisame ain't avoiding shit. Guy is tier 4 in the speed department.

As with any moving body, distance is a factor. But the Totsuka's range is limited and Kisame's getting hit if he's anywhere inside it.

Susano'o threw the Magatama as fast as FRS; a sword swing should be comparable, since it's essentially the same motion.



IchLiebe said:


> It was shown that Deva's powers go on cooldown after using big techniques like CST and CT.



Deva Pain continued to use Shinra Tensei immediately following the disintegration of Chibaku Tensei, so the cooldown doesn't seem to follow the latter Jutsu.



IchLiebe said:


> We have never seen something(especially) Totsuka shoot something as fast as a gun. Its extension is no faster than Sasuke's arrow, as in my opinion it would make no sense that Itachi's sword can extend faster than Sasuke's arrow.



Great reasoning. 



IchLiebe said:


> Niku- FKN PLZ. So far up Itachi's ass.
> 
> Need I go on an on about the people who bring weak arguments that aren't supported by evidence yet most of the community holds them as a God of the BD...Like seriously look at the member of the month,



You're gonna lose a kidney from all that salt.



> the only one that I say consistently uses good arguments is Turrin.







> 1 thing you can't say about me though is that I half ass my arguments when I get spurred up. And in most arguments I shut you down.



That's right IchLiebe, u the baddest bitch in dis club.



> Everyone knows I hate Itachi, I make it very apparent and do not try to hide it but if you want to use that as an excuse to disregard my arguments then you must also disregard the ones who are biased for Itachi.



I disregard your arguments because you deliberately troll. 



Bonly said:


> C-C-Combo Breaker! As for who can dodge it, it's hard to say. Orochi got hit mid sentence but Orochi is a cocky mofo so it could've been so fast that Orochi couldn't do anything or maybe he didn't care to attempt to dodge it and we all know bout Nagato so yeah. If I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say people decently above V1 A in speed maybe



Please. He was still trying to finish his sentence when Itachi Michael Browned him. He had absolutely no idea what happened until after it happened.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 2, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Deva Pain continued to use Shinra Tensei immediately following the disintegration of Chibaku Tensei, so the cooldown doesn't seem to follow the latter Jutsu.


Are you talking about Naruto when CT became fully formed(thus more time elapsed than when Naruto, Bee, and Itachi faced it).
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And Nagato proceeded to attack Naruto, charged at him with a stake instead of using Deva's powers.

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THen when he used CST- all paths were knocked out for a duration of time.

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"Its taking longer for the other 5 to recover this time than it did before, implying that using CST effects the power/abilities of the other paths.

Here he states that after using Deva path to such an extent(I say his number 2 jutsu with CT being the most powerful) will take a while to recover, after a substantial amount of time had already passed.

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> Great reasoning.


 I expected not a shred more 


> You're gonna lose a kidney from all that salt.


I barely get my daily amount of salt, don't care for it. Though I am sorry for putting you both in the same category.





> That's right IchLiebe, u the baddest bitch in dis club.


:spwank





> I disregard your arguments because you deliberately troll.


And i can say the same about you. But atleast I don't discredit feats and barely hold a candle light to hype and portrayal. Hell Sasuke and Naruto were "portrayed" to be equals, yet Naruto pressured Kaguya and was holding back and got nerfed against Sasuke.





> Please. He was still trying to finish his sentence when Itachi Michael Browned him. He had absolutely no idea what happened until after it happened.


So you are saying that Nagato was unable to react?

Thing is, Nagato might could have stopped it but Kabuto not knowing the true extent of Nagato's abilities(he didn't even know he was a sensor, that would've been useful no?) and that could've effected him. That you can't deny.


Hitting two stationary targets =/=blitzing average shinobi that is actually worth their salt.


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## Cognitios (Dec 2, 2014)

Itachi's face when viewing this thread


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## IchLiebe (Dec 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> C-C-Combo Breaker! As for who can dodge it, it's hard to say. Orochi got hit mid sentence but Orochi is a cocky mofo so it could've been so fast that Orochi couldn't do anything or maybe he didn't care to attempt to dodge it and we all know bout Nagato so yeah. If I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say people decently above V1 A in speed maybe



Orochimaru did say that a wound of that type was nothing to him, then when he was informed it was the Totsuka, shat his pants. While I chop that up as that, to many people think he was surprised(hmm, seeing a pattern here) and wasn't able to dodge due by the sheer speed. But Orochimaru was also anchored to the snake and didn't show to move, nor did that snake ever move. Orochimaru was so full of himself at that moment, he finally over took an Uchiha, Why would he think he could be defeated at that point?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Are you talking about Naruto when CT became fully formed(thus more time elapsed than when Naruto, Bee, and Itachi faced it).
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



We never saw a cooldown after either use of Chibaku Tensei, or even with Bansho Tenin for that matter, which Chibaku Tensei is more akin to than Shinra Tensei.



> I expected not a shred more



I don't know why you're bragging about that.



> I barely get my daily amount of salt, don't care for it. Though I am sorry for putting you both in the same category.



You've got enough salt in that post to kill 100% Katsuyu.



> And i can say the same about you.



I only troll sometimes, it's obvious, and it's funny.



> But atleast I don't discredit feats and barely hold a candle light to hype and portrayal.



I don't know why you're bragging about that.



> Hell Sasuke and Naruto were "portrayed" to be equals, yet Naruto pressured Kaguya and was holding back and got nerfed against Sasuke.



They were equals. They fought each other until they were both incapable of continuing.



> So you are saying that Nagato was unable to react?



Nagato was able to react, but he was unable to dodge because he was a cripple. Still, the guy's reaction time (and Kabuto's, for that matter) is top tier outside of Juubi Jins and Rikudou-Powered God Mode Sues.



> Thing is, Nagato might could have stopped it but Kabuto not knowing the true extent of Nagato's abilities(he didn't even know he was a sensor, that would've been useful no?) and that could've effected him. That you can't deny.



I won't deny that.

But Kabuto's poorly-controlled Nagato did get blitzed.



> Hitting two stationary targets =/=blitzing average shinobi that is actually worth their salt.



Orochimaru wasn't stationary and Nagato had plenty of other options besides dodging (that Kabuto did know about).


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## IchLiebe (Dec 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> We never saw a cooldown after either use of Chibaku Tensei, or even with Bansho Tenin for that matter, which Chibaku Tensei is more akin to than Shinra Tensei.


We never got to. There was plenty of time to be cooled down and in the other there wasn't any time.

Maybe not after bansho Tenin, but after CST we did see a cooldown. And would you not say that CT is Deva's strongest technique? I would. More powerful the jutsu, the worse the drawbacks are.





> I don't know why you're bragging about that.


Because I knew that would be what you said, or something akin to it. Totsuka has never shown to be exceptionally faster than the arrow, or even slightly faster. Plus it would make no sense whatsoever that a sword would be able to extend a larger distance more quickly than an arrow would travel.


> You've got enough salt in that post to kill 100% Katsuyu.


Wipe the brown off your nose first.



> I only troll sometimes, it's obvious, and it's funny.


Its idiotic and annoying(Not saying you are, just trolls in general). I only consider myself trolling very rarely, except in the Cafe, love to troll there at times. But look at your responses to my post in this thread so far I would consider Half-assing it. Though I was at first as well, so can't blame you.





> I don't know why you're bragging about that.


Because I believe that people that use portrayal and hype are grasping for straws because their argument is weak. Ii wasn't bragging either.





> They were equals. They fought each other until they were both incapable of continuing.


Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you Nikushimi...whom thinks Naruto and Sasuke are equals. Naruto after fighting for days, pushed the Goddess(Sasuke was getting trashed by her), almost out of chakra(aswell as Kurama), didn't use SM, and didn't use any other tailedbeast(unlike Sasuke who needed their chakra), and whom Sasuke stated wasn't trying to kill him.

I know how you speak of Itachi vs Kabuto in that Itachi wasn't able to kill Kabuto, but then you blatantly disregard it when it doesn't favor your opinion. As right here Naruto was trying to kill Sasuke and didn't want too. yet they are equal....yea FUCKING RIGHT.





> Nagato was able to react, but he was unable to dodge because he was a cripple. Still, the guy's reaction time (and Kabuto's, for that matter) is top tier outside of Juubi Jins and Rikudou-Powered God Mode Sues.


Yes a cripple who has good reactions, is a great sensor was unable to react...now I wonder why? Surely he didn't get blitzed, so what was it Niku? He has plenty of things that can stop Totsuka, yet didn't use anything. Oh and you can say he was on auto-pilot, but that would also suggest that his abilities were on cooldown.





> I won't deny that.
> 
> But Kabuto's poorly-controlled Nagato did get blitzed.


No he was attacked without a way to move nor counter. If he could've he would've since he has top tier reactions by your own admission, outside of Jyuubi jins and RPGMSues.




> Orochimaru wasn't stationary and Nagato had plenty of other options besides dodging (that Kabuto did know about).


Orochimaru was stationary, he might have been able to move, but the snake Orochimaru was in never moved, nor did Orochimaru whom went on to state that a wound like that wouldn't effect him in the slightest(which to me suggest he just tried to tank it as he wasn't worried until he figured out it was the Totsuka).

I will say Totsuka is rather quick, but you can't put it at the level that so many are just because it landed against an arrogant ninja with night invincibility and a crippled that just got done using a very powerful technique(possibly one of the strongest ones in the manga) and whos vision was obscured.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Dec 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Orochimaru did say that a wound of that type was nothing to him, then when he was informed it was the Totsuka, shat his pants. While I chop that up as that, to many people think he was surprised(hmm, seeing a pattern here) and wasn't able to dodge due by the sheer speed. But Orochimaru was also anchored to the snake and didn't show to move, nor did that snake ever move. Orochimaru was so full of himself at that moment, he finally over took an Uchiha, Why would he think he could be defeated at that point?



^This. So convenient of the OP to ignore this stuff. Orochimaru was unlucky, of all the tens of thousand of swords in Narutoworld this is the only one he cant tank.


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## IchLiebe (Dec 3, 2014)

^And its not OOC for Orochimaru to try and tank attacks he knows/thinks won't seriously hurt him.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Lol. Fucking really. Your arguments are SHIT. You never have more than 2 paragraphs...Never. I wouldn't even say you argue. I don't make much of an argument for threads such as this. There are plenty of characters that can dodge it. Look who hasn't; A cocky arrogant Orochimaru using his strongest technique, and a crippled Nagato being controlled by Kabuto immediately after using CT which should cool ST down as it is Deva paths most powerful technique(When CST was shown all paths were knocked out for a period of time). My God what speedsters those were i forgot they were as fast as an average jounin(Orochimaru never showed any type of speed), Nagato did show some speed after using ST on Itachi and crew, but undetermined how he crossed that distance that fast and hard to calculate how fast he moved. Asura was shown to have rocket boosters(might've been anime only, if so disregard).
> 
> When did Danzo ever state that Susanoo was a super fast technique? maybe the arrow it shot, but he was even able to deflect it in time even though he couldn't control Mokuton that well, but never SUSANOO itself. Danzo was also tearing through it.
> 
> ...



and you have heavy BS text which hardly anyone reads. 
considering if you posted stuff such as raiden cuts through V4 susanoo. Can you seriously expect me to argue with you ?

obito just said he is strikign hard and fast with it. so my mistake nothing about super fast. 

*(which is why he forms that when he attempts to make a normal rasengan*

I also if you could read agreed with you, that most fast ninja would avoid it, people faster than danzo and up 

So why argue with someone agreeing with you? and yes my comment about your posts generally are true

all we read from you, is ama is fodder, gaara can troll 2 itachi, susanoo gets cut through by raikiri 

so yes as far as posts are concerned you got the worst ones


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## ueharakk (Dec 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> We never saw a cooldown after either use of Chibaku Tensei, or even with Bansho Tenin for that matter, which Chibaku Tensei is more akin to than Shinra Tensei.



kakashi attributed the 5 second cooldown to *both shinra tensei and banshou tennin.* 

Not only that, but nagato shut down all his other paths when he used CT against the three.  CT is the most powerful deva path tech, unless shown otherwise it has a cooldown by virtue of all the weaker deva path techs having a cooldown.


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## Icegaze (Dec 5, 2014)

yh it has a cool down for sure. No way it doesnt have one. Fact is nagato did not see itachi attack and could not move. 
however people shouldnt make it sound like people physically slower than itachi can avoid it either

if he can track their speed, totsuka should casually land. so i do not see someone like onoki who is fast avoiding it.


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