# Aokiji vs. Marco, Jozu, Vista + All other WB Commanders



## Shanks (Mar 22, 2014)

We all know how a weaken Akainu went with all the commanders bar Jozu. How does it go when we add Jozu to the group against a faster Admiral?


Bloodlust
50 meters
Punh Hazard centre

*Let's go*


----------



## Ancient Archtroll (Mar 22, 2014)

Jozu with two arms solos.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 22, 2014)

Ancient Archtroll said:


> Jozu with two arms solos.



Admiral Borsalino, have you forgotten our brotherhood?  Stop this nonsense and rejoin the marines.


----------



## Rocktomato (Mar 22, 2014)

So, it's basically Aokiji vs Marco, Jozu, Vista and Rakuyo? That's pretty unfair on Aoki-sama, having to fight all those bordering top-level fighters at the same time. While he's a great fighter, I don't think he can realistically win this. It's just too many almost-admiral enemies with Haki at the same time.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 22, 2014)

It was Akainu+Half the marine against them and it only happened in a short skirmich. A longer battle and Akainu would have been slaughtered. We're already seen that Marco and Vista alone were capable to handle him. Adding others make it unfair


----------



## Kid (Mar 22, 2014)

Kuzan will kill enough of them though


----------



## Magician (Mar 22, 2014)

Team two stomp, mid diff at the very best.

Marco can already tangle with the Admirals, he's not going down without a high difficulty fight and Jozu and Vista are only a step below.

Tis too much for any Admiral. All the other WB commanders can serve as distractions and such.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 22, 2014)

Where are my fellow goons?


----------



## Magentabeard (Mar 22, 2014)

Really he loses to Jozu and Vista. Jozu already fought him off panel to a stalemate until he was caught offguard.
Add in Vista and Aokiji loses handily.


----------



## trance (Mar 22, 2014)

Marco alone would be a challenge for Kuzan. The Admiral loses this.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 23, 2014)

Kuzan gets ganged mid diff.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

This is how I feel the battle would go. The lower commanders like cruiel were matched up with a mid tier like Moria and those guys, not only are non-factors and but they are more of a distractions to guys like Marco, Jozu and Vista.

Off the bat, Kuzan will launched a swiftly and devastating ice age, which should cause half of the lower level commanders to be completely frozen and become a major distraction in a sense that Marco, Jozu and Vista cannot truly go all out due to friendly fire and at times have to use their own body to shield and protect the frozen fallen team mate.

Then we also have the battle field as punk hazard, which we know is half ice and half fire. While in the ice land, Kuzan can easily hide himself and increase his evasion more than usual, making it extremely difficult to locate and find. As a result he will be able to systematically pick these guys off one by one instead of having to face everyone at the same time. Kuzan most probably will have better CoO than the WB commanders, so it will be even easier for him to locate and 1-shot them.

Jozu, while able to hold Aokiji off for a short period of time, he did lose with low difficulties shortly after. Sure, you can argue that he lost due to a distraction, but keep in mind Jozu also had a free in hit towards the beginning of their fight when Aokiji was fighting WB, so all in all both had a free shot each and so Kuzan technically won that battle fair and square without even a scratch on him or shown a slightest sign of slowing down. On top of all this, Jozu now also lost an arm and have being scared from the war due to almost getting killed and obviously should be weaker now.

Vista was hype to hells gate because he was able to clash with Mihawk for a show period of time, but then we saw what Vista was truly capable of when having to team up with Marco to fight Akainu, but did absolutely nothing, which ended with the WSM having to step in to blind side Akainu on the temple.

Marco, while he does seems fairly impressive in the beginning of the war with Kizaru, as we push forward; we began to see the cracks. Towards the end of the war, Marco was firstly a meat shield: , then he was just an annoyance:  and finally he was a non-factor because he could not protect his team mate: .

Marco’s regen is the only thing going on for him, but being a punching bag isn’t enough to be with a battle. Nor can he be a meat shield to save his team mate against an ice man. Despite looking fairly good in the beginning of the war, he couldn’t even handle the magma heat and was severally injured even with his regeneration as it shown heavily bandage up after the war: .  When fighting Kuzan, Maroc will be fortunate enough to just be bandage up, but will get frozen and broke into a million pieces.

During the war, we haven’t truly seen Kuzan going all out, but we can scale his power level around Akainu’s level due to fighting him for 10 consecutive days and changing the climate of punk Hazard permanent to half hot and half cold.

Akainu, despite going throw hell with WB, came back strong and it took all the commanders which was essentially still fresh to stop him, but he proceed to push on anyway and ultimately fodderise cruiel and continue his assault. You may argue that it was half of the marines at MF helping Akainu later on during that off panel battle, but it certainly didn’t happen right away and we can safely assume that he fought all of them at the very least for a short period of time without incurring any damage.

Kuzan, along with Sakazuki and Borsalino are the original Admirals and holds the title of the strongest military force within the world government and essentially the strongest force of justice in the entire world, with hype and portrayal on par with the likes of the Yonkou when it comes combat abilities.

Two years later, Kuzan along with Akainu have surpass Admiral level  and got even stronger with Akainu reaching FA while Aokiji reaching a I’m too cool for school to give a darn about rank level after leaving the Marines.

Definitely not an easy victory for Kuzan, but with a combination of strategic approach, Kuzan should be able to win this with very high difficulties.


----------



## trance (Mar 23, 2014)

> Definitely not an easy victory for Kuzan, but with a combination of strategic approach, Kuzan should be able to win this with very high difficulties



Are you daft? 

Marco, Jozu and Vista are more than enough. 

Did changing your name also make you an Admiral fanboy? This is AK level wanking.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Are you daft?
> 
> Marco, Jozu and Vista are more than enough.
> 
> Did changing your name also make you an Admiral fanboy? This is AK level wanking.


----------



## trance (Mar 23, 2014)

Too bad RG isn't here. He'd tear right into that TL;DR.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Too bad RG isn't here. He'd tear right into that TL;DR.



1) He could and he should. And. He. Better.
2) If he's the only one that cares, then the fandom is truly disappointing now
3) I'm trying to score points with the goons to be an uncover double agent.  Once I get accepted, I will tare AK and his goons down from the inside limb from limb. Muwhahahahaha!!


*Spoiler*: __ 



Being here for too long... need a new and better hobby. Fuck


----------



## trance (Mar 23, 2014)

*Kings Disposition* is also an adamant Marco supporter. However, he's also rarely on. 

And kinda sad you wasted a name change just to gain AK's approval and take him down from the inside. 

I guess Corus might debate against this but I doubt it.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji wins extreme diff.

MF Akainu > pre-TS BB Pirates > remnants of WB Commanders.

Since Aokiji's on Akainu's general level...he takes this!!


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

rext1 said:


> Aokiji wins extreme diff.
> 
> MF Akainu > pre-TS BB Pirates > remnants of WB Commanders.
> 
> Since Aokiji's on Akainu's general level...he takes this!!



Dude, WTF? The Admirals are strong, but not that strong. At least put some effort into trolling (if you are). Vista & Jozu together would most likely be enough, so I don't see how any could believe Aokiji stands a chance here.

And MF Akainu isn't > pre-ts BB pirates. Teach & BB pirates were stalemating Garp and Sengoku during MF and BB have every intention to sink marineford and if Shanks didn't appear, he definitely have no intention in stopping.

If you're referring to the time when Teach decided to withdraw after seeing Akainu on the sinking on that island with Bonnie, he wasn't scared. He was just cunning and calculating. Why risk it all to fight the strongest Marine + an entire ship full of capable marines right of the bat after achieving so much? If they had fight and Akainu was lone, then I would give it to the BB priates, but Teach will definitely lose a few limbs and lose a few crew mates in the process.

BB pirates right after MF is definitely not stronger than then remainder of the WB pirates either. If they fought right off the bat, I would see bloodbath and people dying everywhere.


----------



## Extravlad (Mar 23, 2014)

Marco and Vista are enough to beats him.

In fact Marco and Vista cannot lose a 2v1 at the moment, only WB/Roger and Prime Garp would be able to defeat them alone.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji will have his hands full with Marco alone, add either Jozu or Vista and he loses against the duo with high/very high difficulty. All 3 of them, or even all commanders at once, will speed the process up.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 23, 2014)

The commanders take the victory with low difficulty... and that's being generous.

Individually, Marco would push Aokiji quite far, and the addition of another commander puts the match-up in his favor; there's no way any Admiral can take all of these guys.


Ridiculously unbalanced.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> The commanders take the victory with low difficulty... and that's being generous.
> 
> Individually, Marco would push Aokiji quite far, and the addition of another commander puts the match-up in his favor; there's no way any Admiral can take all of these guys.
> 
> ...



Define "low difficulty"?


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Mar 23, 2014)

As many have said, a combination of Marco and Vista is enough. Anything more and it's overkill. Kuzan gets crushed here.


----------



## Typhon (Mar 23, 2014)

Blake said:


> It was Akainu+Half the marine against them and it only happened in a short skirmich. A longer battle and Akainu would have been slaughtered. We're already seen that Marco and Vista alone were capable to handle him. Adding others make it unfair







Edit: Kuzan loses, but it's nothing like low difficulty. These guys will be busting out their strongest attacks just to put Kuzan down, especially since none of them are replicating damage WB can put out. That's not even counting the fact that Kuzan can fight for days on end.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 23, 2014)

Omnation said:


> Edit: Kuzan loses, but it's nothing like low difficulty. These guys will be busting out their strongest attacks just to put Kuzan down, especially since none of them are replicating damage WB can put out. That's not even counting the fact that Kuzan can fight for days on end.


There was a short fight after this you know?


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 23, 2014)

@ Sabo/Admiral Aokiji - You know blurting out publicly that you're a "double agent" and "undercover" isn't exactly going to help your cause of staying ........ well undercover. 


OT: Kuzan takes this extreme difficulty. 

This is essentially Marco, Jozu, Vista vs Kuzan - the rest of the commanders aren't even worth the letters in their names. Marco and Vista have been demonstrated already to be inferior to an injured Sakazuki, Kuzan's equal, so the question is whether adding Jozu is enough to fill up the gap. I don't think it is.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Mar 23, 2014)

Kuzan loses at most  medium difficulty.

Jozu and Marco can definately take him together. Vista and Marco likely as well.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Mar 23, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> @ Sabo/Admiral Aokiji - You know blurting out publicly that you're a "double agent" and "undercover" isn't exactly going to help you're cause of staying ........ well undercover.
> 
> 
> OT: Kuzan takes this extreme difficulty.
> ...




How are weaker Commanders non-factors? Ace was able to block Aokiji's named attack  and Crocodile delayed Akainu from going after Luffy with sucess. They can at least give openings for stronger Commanders.


----------



## Kaiser (Mar 23, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> @ Sabo/Admiral Aokiji - You know blurting out publicly that you're a "double agent" and "undercover" isn't exactly going to help your cause of staying ........ well undercover.
> 
> 
> OT: Kuzan takes this extreme difficulty.
> ...


Oh really? How did Rakuyo fight Kizaru without even receiving a scratch after their encounter?


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 23, 2014)

Lord Melkor said:


> How are weaker Commanders non-factors? Ace was able to block Aokiji's named attack  and Crocodile delayed Akainu from going after Luffy with sucess. They can at least give openings for stronger Commanders.



Well Ace did have an elemental advantage and I also do place Ace as one of the top commanders given his bloodline. 

I think the outcome of the war speaks for itself in this regard. Apart from the aforementioned trio, non of them were able to contribute much to it, i.e. take out an Admiral/Shichi or make any meaningful impact to sway the outcome to their favour. At any rate, I don't think any of them have the haki required to do anything useful here ..... I mean even Marco and Vista struggled to get to Sakazuki. 



Blake said:


> Oh really? How did Rakuyo fight Kizaru without even receiving a scratch after their encounter?



It's Kizaru though - when does he take anything seriously? He let half the pirates on Shabondy escape because he was more interested in joking around. I don't think Kuzan would give these people an inch.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 23, 2014)

^Croc(who had no haki) stalemating Akainu(who had a few chapters ago exhibited reflexes that enabled him to take off WB's head after absorbing a crushing quake bubble to the back of his won) - after hitting him with an attack that could possibly hurt him to which Akainu didnt react instead electing to stare slack-jawed as the man he had rampaged through MF to kill was taken from his grasp. Its the kind of storyline convenience that could only be attributed to PIS!!!!!!

MF was replete with PIS! I dont believe anyone of the WB Commanders were actually near Admiral level. Oda had to give them a good showing and have them tango for periods of time. So that some hype could be conjured up - MF wouldnt be fun if we knew from the get-go that WB Pirates had virtually no chance at success! 

Another motivating factor is the common shonen trope of BA geezers having epic final showdowns + eternal sendoffs! How not-Epic would have been to see WB's underlings get manhandled in short-order than have WB himself ganged up on by a trio of top-tiers?? After WB's demise this requirement melted away and IMHO Oda more truthfully potrayed the gap between Admiral and WB Commanders by having Akainu run amok, smacking high tiers down like dominoes....


----------



## Venom (Mar 23, 2014)

Even though Aokiji is equal to Akainu his DF by far does not have the same deadliness as Akainu's.
Akainu has a DF which could insta kill you whereas Aokiji does not.
Like Luffy and Zoro for instance.
Luffy is a bit stronger than Zoro but Zoro is much deadlier than Luffy.
So you can't say that Aokiji would win this one just cause Akainu could pull it off.

Aokiji either wins extrem diff or looses mid diff.
Depends on how strong the Haki of the commanders is.
If they can't touch Aokiji like they couldn't touch Akainu then they lose


----------



## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 23, 2014)

Venom said:


> Akainu has a DF which could insta kill you whereas Aokiji does not.



:sanji

Kuzan has one of the most prevelant insta kill fruits - all the logia admirals do in fact. All he needs to grab onto to some and it's either death or at the very least a loss of a limb. 

Just ask Jozu's right arm or Jaguar D Saul.


----------



## Orca (Mar 23, 2014)

Kuzan loses this.



> Well Ace did have an elemental advantage and I also do place Ace as one of the top commanders given his bloodline.



Ace had no elemental advantage whatsoever. You can make a case for ice > fire as much as you can for fire > ice. This isn't pokemon after all.


----------



## Lord Melkor (Mar 23, 2014)

rext1 said:


> ^Croc(who had no haki) stalemating Akainu(who had a few chapters ago exhibited reflexes that enabled him to take off WB's head after absorbing a crushing quake bubble to the back of his won) - after hitting him with an attack that could possibly hurt him to which Akainu didnt react instead electing to stare slack-jawed as the man he had rampaged through MF to kill was taken from his grasp. Its the kind of storyline convenience that could only be attributed to PIS!!!!!!
> 
> MF was replete with PIS! I dont believe anyone of the WB Commanders were actually near Admiral level. Oda had to give them a good showing and have them tango for periods of time. So that some hype could be conjured up - MF wouldnt be fun if we knew from the get-go that WB Pirates had virtually no chance at success!
> 
> Another motivating factor is the common shonen trope of BA geezers having epic final showdowns + eternal sendoffs! How not-Epic would have been to see WB's underlings get manhandled in short-order than have WB himself ganged up on by a trio of top-tiers?? After WB's demise this requirement melted away and IMHO Oda more truthfully potrayed the gap between Admiral and WB Commanders by having Akainu run amok, smacking high tiers down like dominoes....



This is your interpretation in face of inconsistent portrayal. Why make assumption in favor of  Admirals against WB pirates while it makes more sense to assume, from the story and World Balance perspective, than the Marines simply cannot beat the strongest Yonkou and his forces without great effort?


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Mar 23, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> @ Sabo/Admiral Aokiji - You know blurting out publicly that you're a "double agent" and "undercover" isn't exactly going to help your cause of staying ........ well undercover.
> 
> 
> OT: Kuzan takes this extreme difficulty.
> ...



Don't forget that Sakazuki's attack on Marco was no more effective than when it was the other way around. Their interactions were in no way, shape, or form decisive.


----------



## Venom (Mar 23, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> :sanji
> 
> Kuzan has one of the most prevelant insta kill fruits - all the logia admirals do in fact. All he needs to grab onto to some and it's either death or at the very least a loss of a limb.
> 
> Just ask Jozu's right arm or Jaguar D Saul.



Well yes Aokiji has one but I meant in comparison to Akainu's DF which is deadly as fuck
He needs to hit you once and you already have a hole in your body and are burning.
You can block an ice "throw" of Aokiji much better than you could block a magma "throw" of Akainu


----------



## Lord Melkor (Mar 23, 2014)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> It's Kizaru though - when does he take anything seriously? He let half the pirates on Shabondy escape because he was more interested in joking around. I don't think Kuzan would give these people an inch.




He seemed serious against Marco though - after his brief skirmish he said to the Giant Squad to watch out for attacks from above and teamed up with Onigumo to disable Marco temporarily


----------



## Magentabeard (Mar 23, 2014)

An admiral soloing an entire yonkou crew minus the yonkou captain? That's some next level retardation....
Why have the whole marine organization at marineford when you can just use 2 admirals to duo the war


----------



## Lord Melkor (Mar 23, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> An admiral soloing an entire yonkou crew minus the yonkou captain? That's some next level retardation....



Well, no need for the insults, Son, but I would expect a Yonkou crew minus the captain to put up a good fight against two Admirals.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji gets stomped.

Lol at the wankers suggesting he can win


----------



## hmph (Mar 23, 2014)

The commanders will probably win, but they have a chance of losing since Kiji is full of one shots, and if he brought it down to a 2v1 it'd turn to his advantage. Marco and Jozu's devil fruits can't help them here like they would against Akainu or Kizaru.


----------



## monkey d ace (Mar 23, 2014)

marco and jozu are enough. vista is just extra.


----------



## convict (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji gets smothered and lynched. Come on. The Admirals used to be underestimated but this is going the complete opposite direction. No one in the world can actually defeat a Yonkou crew by himself. Do people really think all that hullabaloo and those comments by Sengoku would hold any weight if the three admirals alone could just nip every thing in the bud with ease? I mean, if Aokiji can defeat the entire WB crew then 2 more admirals would fart all over Whitebeard and the rest of his allies. Everyone else including the Shichibukai, Sengoku and Garp, and the entire army should have just slept in or played board games or something.


----------



## Sir Curlyhat (Mar 23, 2014)

_Make it Aokiji vs Jozu and Vista and it's sort of balanced. Marco and anyone that matters would be to much, a team made of Jozu and Vista would probably have the edge as well over a single Admiral._


----------



## Lmao (Mar 23, 2014)

Add Fujitora and it's a fair match.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Mar 23, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji, don't troll here ...

You won't even beat Marco + Jozu alone ....

Marco and Jozu  mid-high diffs.


----------



## marco55656 (Mar 23, 2014)

Marco vs Aokiji can go either way, adding anyone else with haki to marcos side makes marco win


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 23, 2014)

Any admiral dies in that scenario.


----------



## Magentabeard (Mar 23, 2014)

Any character dies in this scenario.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

rext1 said:


> IMHO Akainu should also be capable of defeating the remnants of the WB Pirates!


Based on what? Marco’s hype, feats and portrayal have being shown to be on admiral level.

His strength & endurance are comparable to the strongest Admiral by holding his ground with a bloodlust magma fist to the face and shrug off a heavily impacting and direct punch from the legendary hero of the marines.

Speed and mobility is comparable to the fastest Admiral, while his stamina is comparable to the all 3 colour trio.

His defensive is one of, if not the best in the series – no explanation needed. While his offense, being a brawler, though capitalising on his flight mobility and incredible strength was able to overpower 2 Admirals physically. 


Marco was the right hand man of The World’s Strongest Man and the successor to Whitebeard’s throne. He was capable of fighting the C3 evenly on separate occasions and is the second strongest fighter from one of two main factions in the war. Afterward, he was spoken in the same breath with the 4 Emperors and essentially crowning him as a Pseudo Yonkou by the most knowledgeable & highest authority figures in the manga – The Gorosei.


Jozu & Vista, while most agree is not quite Admiral Level, but certainly is strong enough having feats such as defecting the world’s strongest slash, stalemating the world strongest swordsman, stalemating a C3 and only lost due to a major distraction. They can certainly make a major impact if they team up with a strong ally like Marco against anyone.

The other WB pirate commanders’ are certainly capable individuals who are in fact leaders and commanders within a Yonkou crew of the world’s strongest man and that course will give them hype to be some of the strongest pirates in the new world along with top level commanders from other Yonkou crew. Their allies was shown to be matched up with Vice Admirals, so we can safely assume that these commanders should be around this level at the very least.




Admiral Kizaru said:


> @ Sabo/Admiral Aokiji - You know blurting out publicly that you're a "double agent" and "undercover" isn't exactly going to help your cause of staying ........ well undercover.


That was my evil twin clone. And besides, it is no longer necessary to take out of your organization as most of the goons are no longer active and the ones that are still around have truly understand what Marco is capable of and have given him the benefit of the doubt of being on Admiral level. 



Admiral Kizaru said:


> This is essentially Marco, Jozu, Vista vs Kuzan - the rest of the commanders aren't even worth the letters in their names. Marco and Vista have been demonstrated already to be inferior to an injured Sakazuki, Kuzan's equal, so the question is whether adding Jozu is enough to fill up the gap. I don't think it is.



The commanders can obviously distracted the admirals and create openings. They can also use sea water and sea stones, just like Onigumo.

Marco and Vista did not demonstrated to be inferior to Akainu. That’s absurd. It was a short encounter and if you take that at face value without looking at all the other feats and portrayal from Marco and Vista is selecting reasoning.

Marco has being bleeding constantly due to having multiple holes in his body and not able to recover due to having cuff with sea stones and the both off them were emotionally tore due to Ace’s death. That attack was speedy clash with the goal to stop Akainu was getting to luffy and they succeeded in that matter. Then we also have the issues of how Haki work, which is implied to be correlated with will power and obviously at that very moment the duo’s will power is weak, therefore their haki also suffered.
Obviously if the both of them were in character, Marco and kick Vista’s slash will be more impactful.





			
				rext1 said:
			
		

> ^Croc(who had no haki) stalemating Akainu(who had a few chapters ago exhibited reflexes that enabled him to take off WB's head after absorbing a crushing quake bubble to the back of his won) - after hitting him with an attack that could possibly hurt him to which Akainu didnt react instead electing to stare slack-jawed as the man he had rampaged through MF to kill was taken from his grasp. Its the kind of storyline convenience that could only be attributed to PIS!!!!!!


What, first you downplay WB commanders and BB pirates with these baseless assumptions and now you want to down play Sir Crocodile as well?

Crocodile’s performance during Marineford is anything but ‘PIS’. Often forumers yell and scream ‘PIS’ when they just take things off face value and trying to interpret the story to favor their on believe through selecting reasoning.

Firstly, Croc did not statemate Akainu. He cut him in half and stop him of getting to Luffy and Jimbie. This is exactly the same feat as scratch man against Kizaru. Croc is fully capable of doing this. While Croc is no where near the level of the top tiers at MF, his feats is definitely creditable and solidifying himself as a great character, so please don’t go around and down playing him.




			
				rext1 said:
			
		

> MF was replete with PIS! I dont believe anyone of the WB Commanders were actually near Admiral level. Oda had to give them a good showing and have them tango for periods of time. So that some hype could be conjured up - MF wouldnt be fun if we knew from the get-go that WB Pirates had virtually no chance at success!



For crying out loud, there were some PIS and Plot devices at MF, but the majority of it is legit. Maybe try and understand how things work instead of screaming PIS and Plot all the time.

For the record WB pirates goal isn’t no to destroy Marineford and kill all the marines but save Ace. Along with Luffy’s help, they succeeded.



			
				Captain Altintop said:
			
		

> Admiral Aokiji, don't troll here ...


Sorry ….


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 23, 2014)

Sentomoru has the best defense. Besides, since when Marco has the best dfs ever, or one of. All he did was regen, he blocked one punch from akainu, that was his only dfs feat I believe. His other feats were regeneration, that's not dfs, that's an ability. He still got attacked by Kizaru's lazers in their first encounter, he regenerated, he didn't block it with his "amazing dfs". 

Jozu is the one who has a great dfs that hasn't been stopped yet until used hax on it. Other than that, he blocked everything.


----------



## Orca (Mar 23, 2014)

Why would he block kizaru's lasers? He doesn't have to. He can just regen.


----------



## Orca (Mar 23, 2014)

And sentamaru doesn't have better defence than Marco let alone the best defence. That's ridiculous.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Sentomoru has the best defense. Besides, since when Marco has the best dfs ever, or one of. All he did was regen, he blocked one punch from akainu, that was his only dfs feat I believe. His other feats were regeneration, that's not dfs, that's an ability. He still got attacked by Kizaru's lazers in their first encounter, he regenerated, he didn't block it with his "amazing dfs".
> 
> Jozu is the one who has a great dfs that hasn't been stopped yet until used hax on it. Other than that, he blocked everything.



Talking to me? If you believe Marco's regen is not a defensive capabilities, then feel free to use whatever word(s) you want to use. Obviously out definition on the word "defense" is different judging from your post.

Block Akainu's punch was combination of regen (defensive) and strong endurance and durability because he held his ground . Against garp is also strong endurance and durability because he shurg it off.

What are you talking about regen not being devil fruit but an ability? It's a defensive ability from his devil fruit power. I don't understand what you're trying to get to here.

Yep, Jozu's defensive is impressive, along with Marco and the C3. They obvious have different types of defensive capabilities, but still defensive nonetheless. If you disagree with the word 'defense', then feel free to using what ever word you deem fit.

Sentomoru, what?


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 23, 2014)

That's not dfs. He didn't block Garp. He didn't block Kizaru. That was his regen. 
We see the exact same thing happening with Luffy every chapter. he doesn't get hurt all the time because of blunt damage, he still got hit, doesn't mean that dfs is his. That's an ability that is separate from the concept dfs. Luffy didn't block the attack, he got hit, but didn't take damage thx to his ability.  Marco didn't block these attacks, he got it, but his ability is regeneration. Same thing.


----------



## Magician (Mar 23, 2014)

Wait. Sentomaru has the best defense? Where'd that come from?


----------



## trance (Mar 23, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Wait. Sentomaru has the best defense? Where'd that come from?



Character statement.


----------



## Orca (Mar 23, 2014)

That's more like sentamaru's gag or something. "I have the best defence","I'm the most tight lipped man"... Etc.

He can't possibly have the best defence in the world.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 23, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> That's not dfs. He didn't block Garp. He didn't block Kizaru. That was his regen.
> We see the exact same thing happening with Luffy every chapter. he doesn't get hurt all the time because of blunt damage, he still got hit, doesn't mean that dfs is his. That's an ability that is separate from the concept dfs. Luffy didn't block the attack, he got hit, but didn't take damage thx to his ability.  Marco didn't block these attacks, he got it, but his ability is regeneration. Same thing.



Oda haven't specifically specify the exact definition of those things, so it's really up to the reader to interpret what's being given and obviously my definition and yours could be different, which is fine and I respect that, but it doesn't change Marco's feats, hypes and portrayal in anyway or form.

In my opinion, I generally classify the characters combat abilities in two categories either defensive capabilities or offensive capabilities.

 Defensive capabilities includes:
 - Endurance
 - Durability
 - Stamina
 - Defensive Devil abilities
 - Defensive CoA
 - Defensive CoO
 - CoC
- Speed
- Etc

 Offensive capabilities includes:
 - Strength
 - AoE
 - Stamina
 - Offensive Devil abilities
 - Offensive CoA
 - Offensive CoO
 - Speed
 - Guts
- Etc

In Marco's case, I call Marco's Defensive Devil abilities as defense... that's all.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 23, 2014)

You have to love someone who hysterically runs round screaming "TROLLLLL!!!" everytime he's confronted by someone holding an opposing view!!!!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> The BB pirates and Teach stalemated two certify top tiers in Garp and Sengoku, and they all come out walking after clearly got injured by Sengoku on panel and ]possibly also got hit by Garp off panel during their fight at Marineford. Feats, Hypes and portrayal from the pre-skip BB pirates are anything but ordinary including but not limited to:


Are you insinuating that simply eating a DF magically upskills your haki to top-tier proportions?? Sure Yami + Gura BB had a mountain of haxx with him by the end of the war. But so did Enel at Skypiea. Whats all that destructive power worth when you are incapable of hurting your foe??!! 

Fact is pre-TS BB did not demonstrate a level of haki(or actually any haki for that matter but I'll grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was a closet haki-wielder all along) which would be sufficient to hurt a master-logia and CoA-extrodinnaire like Akainu! 

BB's only tenable strategy would be to grab Akainu and utilise his Yami fruit to deactivate his intangibility. But who has shown greater reflexes?? Akainu who managed to insta-rebound from a quake to the back of the head?? or BB who got out-maneuvered by a half-headed WB?? Who after being sliced with a bisento could only pathetically writhe in the ground in agony!!???

pre-TS BB would have received a magma-fist to the noggin before he could reach out and grab Akainu. 



Admiral Aokiji said:


> • Laffitte singlehandedly and fearlessly interfering a conference with the Shichibukai and high level marines.


Not sure how this proves he is skilled at haki. Luffy fearlessly hit a CD even with full knowledge that an Admiral would come-a-callin' yet he had level 0 haki!!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> • Shiliew was hype up to be on the same level of Mag and of course hype up to have extremely fast growth rate and will essentially be the opponent of EoS Zoro.


His future self was not present at MF. thus is Irrelevant - does not prove he had high-level haki at MF!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> • Van Augur – even back in Mocktown, he was hyped up to be one of the strongest sniper in this series


Had oppurtunity to exhibit his haki when he sniped a famous Logia Portgas D Ace - he didnt!!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> • Vasco Shot, Catarina Devon, Avalo Pizarro and Sanjuan Wolf are the strongest amongst the level 6 prisoners; given them the hype to be at an even stronger than the likes of Jimbie and Ivan.


Jimbei and Ivan were fodder to Akainu...being supposedly superior to either is not proof that they have the haki proficiency to hurt Akainu. Do you think these chumps have Vista or Marco-level haki?? No!? Well they aint hurting Sakazuki!!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> • Burgess tanking a direct and impactful shock wave to the face from above from Sengoku on full Buddha form and continue to fight for the entire war against Garp, Sengoku and half of marineford and later shown to be completely fine.


Didnt Luffy do the same?? He also had virtually no CoA and CoC at the time...sooooo no proof of Burgess' pre-TS haki abilities!!

Basically none of BB's crew would have been of any utility to him in the event that they clashed with Akainu. 



Admiral Aokiji said:


> No, you’re absolutely and utterly wrong here. WB is superior to Yami teach and no one is denying that, but did you forgot that Teach got WB’s DF fruit afterward? Comparing Yami teach to Gura teach is like comparing base Luffy to gear Luffy. Base Luffy would get steamroll by Lucci, but Gear Luffy won the battle. Simple as that.
> 
> Also, Yami Teach didn’t get fodderise. He got cut and pinned down and was a faction of a second away from getting a quake punch to the head. Whether that last quake punch was enough to take Yami teach down is debatable, but I dare say he can tank that. Teach indicated that his body can take more damage than normal people back when he fought ace and then further solidify that after taking a direct and bloodlust slash from the WSM, who has the pure physical power to stop a galleon on its track with 1 hand even after being severally injured and weaken throughout the war.


pre-TS BB cant make MF Akainu tangible...benefits of Gura-Gura are negated!!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> Teach doesn’t have to tank any Magma punches. Anytime there is remotely an opening for Akainu to land a fist, he will get a Haki infused bullet to the face by Vangur (the same haki-infused bullet he threw at Ace?) or an air-slash from Shiliew to push him back (or get hit by any other character for that matter)*(they'll hurt Akainu with their non-existant high-level haki abilities??*). He can also stop it with the Gura gura or reduce the damage with Yami Yami. Gura teach will push Akainu to high difficulties and adding the BB pirates will be enough to give the BB pirates high difficulties - simple as that.


You expect me to believe that the pre-TS BB pirates had a soft spot for Akainu?? That they wouldnt wanna defeat him if they could!? Their fleeing was an admission of being outclassed!! Oda could not have made his point more blatant!



Admiral Aokiji said:


> No one is remotely saying that Gura Teach is at WB’s level. That’s insane to even think so, but Teach and the BB pirate’s feats afterward solidifying Gura teach as a solid top tier and the other BB pirates have certainly stood up to and deliver what Oda have hype them up to be.



The day someone convinces me that consuming a DF grants you haki EXP points is the day I concede that pre-TS BB became a magically-reborn-from-unicorn-ejaculate top tier after stealing the Gura-Gura.


Admiral Aokiji said:


> Based on what? Marco’s hype, feats and portrayal have being shown to be on admiral level.
> 
> His strength & endurance are comparable to the strongest Admiral by holding his ground with a bloodlust magma fist to the face and shrug off a heavily impacting and direct punch from the legendary hero of the marines.


Marco intercepted a magma fist intended for pre-TS Luffy. I doubt Akainu caked it with haki. From my perspective he seemed to have used his regenerative flames to combat  the magma(For all of 5 manga frames!). Ol WB didnt seem to think Marco had it under control because a page later he blindsided Marco's opponent


Admiral Aokiji said:


> Marco was the right hand man of The World’s Strongest Man and the successor to Whitebeard’s throne. He was capable of fighting the C3 evenly on separate occasions and is the second strongest fighter from one of two main factions in the war. Afterward, he was spoken in the same breath with the 4 Emperors and essentially crowning him as a Pseudo Yonkou by the most knowledgeable & highest authority figures in the manga – The Gorosei.


Why then did he and the rest of One Direction spend the time skip on the backfoot - in a state of perpetual retreat?? Under the overwhelming assault of the BB pirates who walked away from confronting a legit YONKO crew at MF!? Marco IMHO isnt a top-tier and thus isnt even nearly on the level of the YONKO the fact that pre-TS Teach + crew(many of whom didnt have great or any haki skills) who was not YONKO level himself was able to overwhelm Marco and the remnants of the WB pirates - is testament to that fact.
IMO BB steadily grew into the role and power-tier of a YONKO over the TS.


----------



## Super Chief (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji gets stomped like you wouldn't believe.


----------



## tanman (Mar 23, 2014)

Yeah.
The commanders roll over him.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 23, 2014)

^In the same manner they rolled over a weakened Akainu at MF???!!


----------



## Rob (Mar 23, 2014)

Why the fuck are there 66 posts here? 

There shouldn't even be a discussion for crying out loud. 

The second it was Marco plus either Jozu or Vista, Aokiji lost the fight.


----------



## Fiddlesticks (Mar 23, 2014)

Aokiji gets fuckin' manhandled by hairy men and a pinneapple, there is literally no other outcome.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 23, 2014)

This thread perfectly illustrates that those who incessantly bitch and moan bout the prevalence of so-called "Admiral wank" on these forums are in denial!! And simply have a persecution complex that they love to flaunt when their lame arguments are riddled and they have to go-crying to the Special Victims Unit!!!

In fact the opposite is true - the Admirals are massively underrated!!!


----------



## Harard (Mar 24, 2014)

Why am I seeing some "mid diffs" here and there? Kuzan gets fucking stomped.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 24, 2014)

rext1 said:


> You have to love someone who hysterically runs round screaming "TROLLLLL!!!" everytime he's confronted by someone holding an opposing view!!!!



Why would you love someone that does that? Are you okay? Would you like a slurpee? It?s on me. Oh, you?re saying that I?m that person? Na, mate, I?m a pretty decent guy once you get to know me.

Haven?t really formerly welcome you to the forum. Welcome, Rext! Hope you have a wonderful time and enjoy the extended TL;DR in this section.

A few people you should watch out for if you going to continue on this route of downplaying everyone but the Admirals including but not limited to Coruscation, Doflamingo, Turnin and Butters. Those guys love typing and have a shit tone of time on their hands to drill you until you have no energy left for days, even weeks.  




rext1 said:


> Are you insinuating that simply eating a DF magically upskills your haki to top-tier proportions?? Sure Yami + Gura BB had a mountain of haxx with him by the end of the war. But so did Enel at Skypiea. Whats all that destructive power worth when you are incapable of hurting your foe??!!




I am instigating that after sucking the devil fruit of WB?s big long hard gigantic structure combining with existing knowledge of how to use the Gura Gura no mi and good overall base stats and Haki efficiently allowed Teach to be significantly stronger and have more offensive and defensive capabilities up his arsenal right off the bat, yes, that is true.





rext1 said:


> Fact is pre-TS BB did not demonstrate a level of haki(or actually any haki for that matter but I'll grant him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was a closet haki-wielder all along) which would be sufficient to hurt a master-logia and CoA-extrodinnaire like Akainu!


Facts are Oda have not truly explained to us what the hell Haki is in full details. Fact is you need more than just Haki to beat a logia and even if you don?t have haki, it?s still possible in some cases.

Once again, Oda doesn?t have to deep throat you in this matter. But he has certainly shown us enough for us to scale the pre-skip BB pirates correctly. But are you meaning to say the strongest of the level 6 prisoner?s, which has portrayal higher than high tiers such as Jimbie at Ivan isn?t as capable in as them? Get out of here.




rext1 said:


> BB's only tenable strategy would be to grab Akainu and utilise his Yami fruit to deactivate his intangibility. But who has shown greater reflexes?? Akainu who managed to insta-rebound from a quake to the back of the head?? or BB who got out-maneuvered by a half-headed WB?? Who after being sliced with a bisento could only pathetically writhe in the ground in agony!!???



Are you joking? There?s always going to be more than 1 strategy to beat an opponent. Now you?re just insulting Oda?s creativity to write good fights. You talk as though this is 1 v 1, but its 1 v 10.  Once again, the stronger BB pirates is fully capable of hurting any Admirals and the weaker one can be used as a distraction and create openings.

Teach pathetically writhe in the ground in agony is just his character. He did that with Ace also. That doesn?t mean anything.

Teach and the BB pirates while haven?t shown us exactly what they are capable off, but their hypes and portray certainly deemed them to be a force to be recken with and obviously they further solidifying the portrayal via feats of stalemating the fleet Admiral and the legendary hero of the marines. No one in the entire world can single-handedly stalemate Garp & Sengoku, not the C3, not the current Yonkou, no one. Maybe, just maybe a healthily WB that?s not handicapped or the legends in their prime. That?s it.



rext1 said:


> pre-TS BB would have received a magma-fist to the noggin before he could reach out and grab Akainu.


Based on what? If Akainu remotely tries to do anything reckless and drops his guard, then he?ll end up with countless slashes and bullets on his body. Some will hurt him, others won?t but that?s more than enough to give teach the opening grab him or whatever else is needed to defeat an Admiral.



rext1 said:


> Not sure how this proves he is skilled at haki. Luffy fearlessly hit a CD even with full knowledge that an Admiral would come-a-callin' yet he had level 0 haki!!.



WTF are you talking about? This is a portrayal to show that he?s capable and fearless and is potentially very strong. Continue to go around to yell and scream they don?t have Haki, just because he haven?t had any on panel fight because is immature.

Kaido & Big Mom also haven?t shown and feats or demonstrated that they can use Haki, but it?s foolish to think they can?t when we they have monstrous portrayal as being Yonkou. Not saying that BB pirates have better portrayal, but their portrayal are definitely impressive, which shows that they are capable fighters enough to fight top tiers. Whether they have Haki or other abilities, we do not know, but what?s have being given to us has allowed us to safely speculate that it is plausible that they have something going on for them, making capable of fighting people on Akainu?s level.




rext1 said:


> His future self was not present at MF. thus is Irrelevant - does not prove he had high-level haki at MF!



Stop this Haki nonsense. We don?t know the full extent of what Haki really is, so please stop going and around to yelling and screening Haki, And did you forgot to read the part where by I wrote that pre-skip shiliew is on the same level at Mag? You obviously hype Mag before and now you want to down-play shiliew, that my friend is double standard. 



rext1 said:


> Had opportunity to exhibit his haki when he snipped a famous Logia Portgas D Ace - he didnt!!



He was casual with a smile. Then shortly after Teach stopped them and wanted to fight alone. And like I said above, it?s not all about Haki but your overall abilities. Van Augur is portray to be a match with Usob, so obviously he will one of the weaker member of the BB pirates, but nonetheless and strong any capable fighters nonetheless. 

Even if he doesn?t have enough skill to hurt Akainu, doesn?t mean he can?t create openings, distract Akainu, curse him, taunt him, etc to create openings for the stronger guys.




rext1 said:


> Jimbei and Ivan were fodder to Akainu...being supposedly superior to either is not proof that they have the haki proficiency to hurt Akainu. Do you think these chumps have Vista or Marco-level haki?? No!? Well they aint hurting Sakazuki!!



What on earth are you talking about? When have I remotely implied that they are at or close to Vista or Marco? Quite the opposite really as I stated earlier.
And Jimbie and Ivan is not fodder to Akainu. They were put in a disadvantage possible by having to fight Akainu head on to protect Luffy. In a fair scenario, Akainu would not have finished them off so easily. And Ivan actually did well. He held Akainu long enough to allow Jimbie to run off. And Jimbie achieve his goal by saving Luffy.

Not every BB pirates will be able to damage Akainu, but then the strongest one such as Vasco Shot, Catarina Devon, Avalo Pizarro and Sanjuan Wolf, Burgess and Shielew obviously have portrayal to show that they are fully capable.

No matter how strong or weak you are, you?ll definitely play as a factor. Even pre-skip Usob would be able to help fight by slight shotting crap on a top tier to taunt him/her and push that person out of character, therefore create openings for the stronger member to fight.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 24, 2014)

rext1 said:


> Didnt Luffy do the same?? He also had virtually no CoA and CoC at the time...sooooo no proof of Burgess' pre-TS haki abilities!!



No, Luffy is a different. From what we’ve see and taking into account all of Luffy feats and short coming, we can conclude he’s a mid-tier at that time, therefore we can conclude that Luffy taking so much top tier attacks such as Sengoku & Kizaru is in consistent to his character and can of course be consider as plot shield.

In Burgess’s case, there’s nothing to prove that he’s not that capable outside of that battle and his hype as the first captain of the BB pirates and helped won over territories in the new world against people around the VA level shortly after MF war solidifying himself as high tier and of course him tanking Sengoku back then was completely legit.




rext1 said:


> Basically none of BB's crew would have been of any utility to him in the event that they clashed with Akainu.



Yep, Mihawk demonstrated that he can’t killed Buggy, so he doesn’t have Haki also.



rext1 said:


> pre-TS BB cant make MF Akainu tangible...benefits of Gura-Gura are negated!!


How is this a response to my above post? Of course he can make Akainu tangible. You stated how in your post even.


rext1 said:


> You expect me to believe that the pre-TS BB pirates had a soft spot for Akainu?? That they wouldnt wanna defeat him if they could!? Their fleeing was an admission of being outclassed!! Oda could not have made his point more blatant!



What soft spot? And once again how is this a response to my above post?

Have you completely ignored my original response to you now that about 1 day has pasted? Let me copy and paste it here:

If you're referring to the time when Teach decided to withdraw after seeing Akainu on the ship on that island with Bonnie, he wasn't scared. He was just cunning and calculating. Why risk it all to fight the strongest Marine + an entire ship full of capable marines’ right of the bat after achieving so much? If they had fight and Akainu was lone, then I would give it to the BB priates, but Teach will definitely lose a few limbs and lose a few crew mates in the process.

I mean, seriously. He spent years to achieve his current power and 9 capable crew mates. Why risk losing some of that to fight Akainu, when winning will not gain them anything, but will May caused him to lose a limb and many crew mates in the process.
Furthermore, they do not know who else is on that Ship.



rext1 said:


> It’s like saying if WB is the strongest Man in the world, why didn’t he go and take down the other Yonkou?






rext1 said:


> The day someone convinces me that consuming a DF grants you haki EXP points is the day I concede that pre-TS BB became a magically-reborn-from-unicorn-ejaculate top tier after stealing the Gura-Gura.




Would to stop this haki bullshit already? Haki is over-rate. We haven’t being explained clearly what it’s capable of.

Consuming a new DF doesn’t increase your Haki, but overall combat abilities (especially when that fruit belongs to the former world’s strongest man) allowing you to do more whether is defending or attacking and he clearly shown to be a different man when fighting Sengoku and Garp and opposed to when he was fighting WB. This is clear as day. Why does Oda need to add anything more or less to what he’s given us as the reader and audience to have sufficient understand on this?




rext1 said:


> Marco intercepted a magma fist intended for pre-TS Luffy. I doubt Akainu caked it with haki. From my perspective he seemed to have used his regenerative flames to combat the magma(For all of 5 manga frames!). Ol WB didnt seem to think Marco had it under control because a page later he blindsided Marco's opponent


What are you talking? Akainu was fighting Marco right before and when he had an opening to launch and assault on Luffy, so he suddenly reduces his power? Don’t you see how absurd and weak this claim is? Furthermore, even if that’s the case, Akainu had ample time to increase his power because Marco was holding his ground.

Marco was more than capable of defending at that time as we he further demonstrated later when him and the WB pirates stopped Akainu and half of MF.

For the record, I am not saying that Marco can defeat Akainu, but he was able to stop Akainu on his track. WB jumped in because he was furious with rage and was ready to take Akainu to hell with him. That has nothing to do with whether or not Marco is capable or not. Not to mentioned at that point Marco have being severally weaken due to bleeding for an extended period of time after getting hit with 2 lasers by Kizaru while cuff with sea-stones.



rext1 said:


> Why then did he and the rest of One Direction spend the time skip on the backfoot - in a state of perpetual retreat?? Under the overwhelming assault of the BB pirates who walked away from confronting a legit YONKO crew at MF!? Marco IMHO isnt a top-tier and thus isnt even nearly on the level of the YONKO the fact that pre-TS Teach + crew(many of whom didnt have great or any haki skills) who was not YONKO level himself was able to overwhelm Marco and the remnants of the WB pirates - is testament to that fact.
> IMO BB steadily grew into the role and power-tier of a YONKO over the TS.


What now? Ignoring other feats and hypes from Marco and choosing what you want to reply on thinking you made a good point? Who is saying he’s Yonkou level? Who is saying that he’s legitimately stronger than the C3? That statement is to show that he’s got incredible portrayal and the Gorisie’s word is better that your opinion. I am saying that he is Admiral level and can push any C3 singlehandedly to high – very high difficulties based on all feats, hypes and portrayal illustrated previously and can defeat a newly appointed admiral in Fujitora to extreme difficulties which can go either-way (but that’s a topic for another day).

So Teach is not on Yonkou level and was able to become a Yonkou shortly after? Great argument there.

Marco himself is capable to pushing an Admiral to high – very high difficulties and adding anyone else will give him a better shot.
Gura Teach himself also capable and adding anyone else will give him a better shot.


----------



## Magician (Mar 24, 2014)

rext1 said:


> ^In the same manner they rolled over a weakened Akainu at MF???!!



They weren't attempting to "roll" over Akainu. They just wanted to get Luffy out of there. 

Plus he had the Vice Admirals backing him. So it's not like he took them solo.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 24, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Oda haven't specifically specify the exact definition of those things, so it's really up to the reader to interpret what's being given and obviously my definition and yours could be different, which is fine and I respect that, but it doesn't change Marco's feats, hypes and portrayal in anyway or form.
> 
> In my opinion, I generally classify the characters combat abilities in two categories either defensive capabilities or offensive capabilities.
> 
> ...



Let me just make two things clear.

1- long posts don't really help, they bore the 2nd party and they just stop replying to you. 
2- I never downplayed macro or tried taking some of his feats. Regeneration and dfs as in blocking are two different things. Don't give me oda didn't define those things so everyone has their own definition. Oda doesn't need to define these things cuz the majority knows what these things mean. 

If jozu had Marco's fruit and still tried stopping Mihawk's slash, he'd fail. He'd get cut and regenerate, that doesn't mean he blocked it. He was hurt by kizaru's attack, he just regenerated, didn't block it.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 24, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Let me just make two things clear.
> 
> 1- long posts don't really help, they bore the 2nd party and they just stop replying to you.
> 2- I never downplayed macro or tried taking some of his feats. Regeneration and dfs as in blocking are two different things. Don't give me oda didn't define those things so everyone has their own definition. Oda doesn't need to define these things cuz the majority knows what these things mean.
> ...



I assure you, I was very considerate on the length of that post and understand that I was talking to someone that dislike long post.

I still don't understand why you are so bend on the word 'defence'. I can explain further but I don't think you'll care...


----------



## Dunno (Mar 24, 2014)

Rext1 wins, low-mid diff. Add Doflamingo and Sakazuki to the other side and it might be a more even match-up.


----------



## Captain Altintop (Mar 24, 2014)

You guys don't have any other things to do, do you ? Jesuuus .... This is like a kindergarten.


----------



## trance (Mar 24, 2014)

How on earth this reached four pages is beyond me. 

The power of cancer I guess.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 24, 2014)

There is no way Kuzan can win this. There's way too much people coming at him


----------



## Shanks (Mar 24, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> There is no way Kuzan can win this. There's way too much people coming at him



Agree, though people who saying he get low dif or get steam-roll are also heavily underestimating.


----------



## Magentabeard (Mar 24, 2014)

Its all because of this


----------



## Harard (Mar 24, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> *Agree, though people who saying he get low dif or get steam-roll are also heavily underestimating.*



Except they aren't. If a freaking Yonkou crew could struggle against one lone man, it'd be beyond pathetic. It doesn't matter if that man happens to be an admiral.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 24, 2014)

Harard said:


> Except they aren't. If a freaking Yonkou crew could struggle against one lone man, it'd be beyond pathetic. It doesn't matter if that man happens to be an admiral.



Actually, it does. 

The admiral rank and the yonkou title are equivalent to each other. That's the highest title you can get as a marine, and that's the highest title you can get as a pirate (Excluding PK for obvious reasons). 

WB would give his own commanders a run for their money if he were to go wild against them. The same thing applies to any admiral since WB and the admirals were fighting on even grounds since second 1.


----------



## Harard (Mar 24, 2014)

Marco and Jozu alone are in the same general ballpark as an admiral, and Vista could hold his own for a decent period of time. Then when you add all the rest of the WB crew as distractions, there's no fucking way Kuzan could hang on for a decent period of time. There's just no fucking way.

I don't expect an admiral to last a decent period of time against the EOS Strawhat crew either. Sure an admiral will be stronger than most of the crew, but they'll produce enough distractions for Zoro and Sanji to take care of business with relative ease.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 24, 2014)

Harard said:


> Marco and Jozu alone are in the same general ballpark as an admiral, and Vista could hold his own for a decent period of time. Then when you add all the rest of the WB crew as distractions, there's no fucking way Kuzan could hang on for a decent period of time. There's just no fucking way.
> 
> I don't expect an admiral to last a decent period of time against the EOS Strawhat crew either. Sure an admiral will be stronger than most of the crew, but they'll produce enough distractions for Zoro and Sanji to take care of business with relative ease.



They are not on the same ballpark. The admirals and the yonkou (the captains) are on the same ballpark.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 24, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Would to stop this haki bullshit already? Haki is over-rate. We haven?t being explained clearly what it?s capable of.
> .



This right here is the crux of our disagreement. Haki is the one consistent factor amongst top-tiers. IMO it is absolutely the king maker in the OP world.

There are top-tiers without DF's(Shanks, Garp, Rayleigh) but as far as we know no top-tiers without haki. A haxx DF can only take you as far as the High-tier rankings.


----------



## Harard (Mar 25, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> They are not on the same ballpark. The admirals and the yonkou (the captains) are on the same ballpark.



Yes, they are on the same general level. Marco also proved it on multiple occasions. Being on the same general level doesn't mean you have to be equal to them. Also, Marco is closer to an admiral than they are to Whitebeard (based on what we've seen, this is definitely the case) and yet, you consider an admiral to be on the same level as Whitebeard, but Marco not on the same general level as an admiral?


I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Yonkou first mates are meant to be on the same general level as an admiral. They don't have to be as strong, but they'd be a tough out for anybody out there.

But seriously though, if the Gorosei hyped the Whitebeard remnants this much and just one lone admiral was capable of pushing dozens of pirates, then what the fuck was the hype for?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Marco, Jozu & Vista alone is enough to push a C3 to mid difficulties. Honestly, this is how things could happen in two different scenarios:

Scenario 1: All out bloodlust battle. Marco, Jozu & Vista goes all out and doesn?t care about the other commander?s safety. And the other commanders are willing to die for the cause to cause distractions and create openings. Kuzan get steam role in this scenario, but will probably be able to take ? of the lower commanders to hell with him

Scenario 2: While bloodlust, Marco, Jozu & Vista still cares about the safety of the lower commanders. The other commanders will obviously not go kamikaze just to create openings and distractions. If any of the commanders falls due to an early ice age, then they will be more of a distraction than help. Just imagine a scenario where by Kuzan launch a pheasant beck onto 5 frozen commanders and Jozu will need to jump in front of that bird to tank it.  Kuzan should be able to do well in this scenario. He won?t win but will do much better and certainly will not get stomp or low dif.

BTW, EoS Sanji alone should be enough to defeat an average Admiral.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

Harard said:


> Yes, they are on the same general level. Marco also proved it on multiple occasions. Being on the same general level doesn't mean you have to be equal to them. Also, Marco is closer to an admiral than they are to Whitebeard (based on what we've seen, this is definitely the case) and yet, you consider an admiral to be on the same level as Whitebeard, but Marco not on the same general level as an admiral?
> 
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Yonkou first mates are meant to be on the same general level as an admiral. They don't have to be as strong, but they'd be a tough out for anybody out there.
> ...



What are you taking about. The admirals are closer to WB than Marco is close to them. Have you seen what akainu did to WB ? He took half his head. WB was a dead man walking once that happened, Marco cannot do that to WB. Not even to the same WB akainu fought at the end


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.


----------



## Magician (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.



Ain't that the truth.


----------



## Freechoice (Mar 25, 2014)

On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 25, 2014)

on even grounds old wb with no pirate aids would bust his nut - low diff -in Shanks!!!!

-you see what I did there??

Made a totally baseless assumption at odds with actual in-manga potrayal. 
Shanks best potrayal vs WB was stalemating a DF-handicapped WB.
The Admirals were holding there own against WB who was retard-spamming his DF!!!

Going by in-manga potrayals we can extroplate that an Admiral should do better against a pirate Aids less WB!!!


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.



not true.
_________


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

rext1 said:


> on even grounds old wb with no pirate aids would bust his nut - low diff -in Shanks!!!!
> 
> -you see what I did there??
> 
> ...



Give it up bro, you where lucky enough to not get gang bang by 7 other guys in previous posts. Don't make it worst for yourself.


----------



## jNdee~ (Mar 25, 2014)

Did someone say Akainu gets mid-diffed?


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.



Does that mean that this version of WB can low-diff Marco?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Does that mean that this version of WB can low-diff Marco?



Marco gets mid dif also. 

I know you disagree, but instead of writing TL;DR to explain, let's look at this thread: 

Most people believe this version of WB can push two Admiral level fighters to high dif, so why wouldn't he be able to mid dif someone on similar level? Akainu may be the strongest marines, but the gap is just marginal.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Marco gets mid dif also.
> 
> I know you disagree, but instead of writing TL;DR to explain, let's look at this thread:
> 
> *Most people believe* this version of WB can push two Admiral level fighters to high dif, s*o why wouldn't he be able to mid dif someone on similar level?* Akainu may be the strongest marines, but the gap is just marginal.



Because these "most people", and what you deem to be consensus, aren't always accurate. A solid argument can overrule what dozens of bias people say, more times than not

I believe that Akainu doesn't need extreme diff to defeat Marco, and can high diff him.

Therefore, I also believe that Whitebeard would have an easier time against Marco than Akainu.

And no, I do not think that old Whitebeard can mid-diff Akainu.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Because these "most people", and what you deem to be consensus, aren't always accurate. A solid argument can overrule what dozens of bias people say, more times than not
> 
> I believe that Akainu doesn't need extreme diff to defeat Marco, and can high diff him.
> 
> Therefore, I also believe that Whitebeard would have an easier time against Marco than Akainu.



But a solid argument can simply be good debating and writing skills which may sound good, but isn't more likely to be accurate than say an opinion from someone with lower writing skills and incapable of debating.

I *also *believe that Akainu doesn't need extreme diff to defeat Marco, and can *very *high diff him.

I don't believe WB will have an easier time with Marco simply because Marco's overall defensive capabilities are either equal to or better than a C3 (depending on how long his regen last for).


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> But a solid argument can simply be good debating and writing skills which may sound good, but isn't more likely to be accurate than say an opinion from someone with lower writing skills and incapable of debating.
> 
> I *also *believe that Akainu doesn't need extreme diff to defeat Marco, and can *very *high diff him.
> 
> I don't believe WB will have an easier time with Marco simply because Marco's overall defensive capabilities are either equal to or better than a C3 (depending on how long his regen last for).



Well a solid argument more often than not, involves something compelling or convincing. It's not just about sounding good, cause if that's all there is to it, it wouldn't be a "solid" argument. The guy doing that, would just be a politician, pretty much. 

Then I think we're pretty much in agreement.

Edit: Oh nvm you "don't" believe it.

I believe that the Admirals' superior offense will make up for the advantages that Marco's defense will provide, meaning that they would be able to hurt Whitebeard more effectively.


----------



## Orca (Mar 25, 2014)

One more thing... just because a person believes that WB can push two admirals to high doesn't necessarily mean he'll mid them in a one on one.

E.g I believe zoro and Sanji can't beat Luffy with anything less than high as a team. At the same time I believe Luffy can't beat zoro with anything less than high.

Fight difficulties are not as simple as 2 + 2.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Pheeew.... no TL; DR this time. 

BTW, anyone who haven't voted on the MOTM contest, it's your last chance. Voting closing soon.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Fight difficulties are not as simple as 2 + 2.



What if it's (2+2)^1/4-@OPxTiers? 

BTW, I believe Zoro & Sanji will steam role Luffy.


----------



## Harard (Mar 25, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> What are you taking about. The admirals are closer to WB than Marco is close to them. Have you seen what akainu did to WB ? He took half his head. WB was a dead man walking once that happened, Marco cannot do that to WB. Not even to the same WB akainu fought at the end





Admiral Aokiji said:


> On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.



There goes your answer, Lawliet. Except I'd say WB should wins high difficulty without losing any limbs.


----------



## Harard (Mar 25, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Does that mean that this version of WB can low-diff Marco?



I say old Whitebeard would high diff both Akainu and Marco. I know most people think Marco is on a lower level than the admirals, but I'm simply not buying it.

Sure Whitebeard would have an easier time against Marco than he would Akainu, but at the end of the day, it would still be a high diff fight as well.


----------



## hmph (Mar 25, 2014)

Admirals = Yonkou should be pretty clear by now, but people want to hold on to old beliefs. I remember when people were discussing if Whitebeard could solo all 3 admirals.

Marco isn't Rayleigh. Whitebeard being equal to Roger doesn't make their first mates equal. Marco generally played a supportive role in the war, intervening where needed rather than picking a fight with an admiral. Where he did attack one, his attacks did no visible damage.


----------



## Harard (Mar 25, 2014)

> Marco isn't Rayleigh



What are you trying to get at? 



> Where he did attack one, his attacks did no visible damage.



Kizaru and Akainu's attacks did no visible damage to Marco either.


----------



## trance (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> On even grounds, pre skip Akainu will get mid dif by a freash WB with no pirate aids.



I disagree. I say high difficulty bu that's just me.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Marco gets mid dif also.
> 
> I know you disagree, but instead of writing TL;DR to explain, let's look at this thread:
> 
> Most people believe this version of WB can push two Admiral level fighters to high dif, so why wouldn't he be able to mid dif someone on similar level? Akainu may be the strongest marines, but the gap is just marginal.



Just because WB can fight two admirals at the same time and push them both to high difficulty, doesn't mean he can take on them both individually and beat them. He'll lose the 2nd fight individually even if he can fight them both at the same time and push them to high diff and lose after.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> But a solid argument can simply be good debating and writing skills which may sound good, but isn't more likely to be accurate than say an opinion from someone with lower writing skills and incapable of debating.
> 
> I *also *believe that Akainu doesn't need extreme diff to defeat Marco, and can *very *high diff him.
> 
> I don't believe WB will have an easier time with Marco simply because Marco's overall defensive capabilities are either equal to or better than a C3 (depending on how long his regen last for).



An info is still an info. If you deliver an info with bad writing versus good writing, it's the same thing as long as the 2nd party understands what that info means. The way how an info is presented doesn't matter as long as it's clear and short, not long and repeated which is what you do most of the times by the way. I can write you a whole page of what "morally wrong" or "morally right" are, but I can still write you one sentence explaining both at the same time and it would be better than that page. 

I'm pretty sure you're going to deny this, but you believe in longer posts = better debating, the longer you can debate the better, which is just wrong.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

> Kizaru and Akainu's attacks did no visible damage to Marco either.



Actually they did. Marco was damaged by Kizaru's lasers in their first encounter, but he just regenerated right away.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> An info is still an info. If you deliver an info with bad writing versus good writing, it's the same thing as long as the 2nd party understands what that info means. The way how an info is presented doesn't matter as long as it's clear and short, not long and repeated which is what you do most of the times by the way. I can write you a whole page of what "morally wrong" or "morally right" are, but I can still write you one sentence explaining both at the same time and it would be better than that page.
> 
> I'm pretty sure you're going to deny this, but you believe in longer posts = better debating, the longer you can debate the better, which is just wrong.



I repeat stuff as much as any hot head here. But then there's the other extreme where by claiming someone is wrong and want to claim that a point of view is right but doesn't bother to take the time of the day to understand and other points of view and spend the extra min to write a convincing extra line of text. Not saying that your that person... Just saying.

Why don't you try writing 1 sentence of morally right and wrong and we'll see.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> I believe that the Admirals' superior offense will make up for the advantages that Marco's defense will provide, meaning that they would be able to hurt Whitebeard more effectively.



We'll firstly, we don't exactly know or can proof exactly how strong or weak this version of WB is, so it's all opinion based by both sides. But in response you, I don't believe Akainu can damage WB as much or as easily compare to MF. And it would also be a lot more difficult to hurt Macro. And difficulties doesn't mean how much damage someone takes in a battle, it just means the level of difficulties it take to win a match.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Just because WB can fight two admirals at the same time and push them both to high difficulty, doesn't mean he can take on them both individually and beat them. He'll lose the 2nd fight individually even if he can fight them both at the same time and push them to high diff and lose after.



No one is talking about a gauntlet here. But even if we are, I disagree. Is this short enough for you?


----------



## Harard (Mar 25, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Actually they did. Marco was damaged by Kizaru's lasers in their first encounter, but he just regenerated right away.



Well then, if that's the case, Marco sending both Kizaru and Aokiji flying were visible damage as well.

Not to mention that bloody lip Kuzan received from Jozu.

If you want to include a small scratch as visible damage, I could think of many other examples.


----------



## trance (Mar 25, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> No one is talking about a gauntlet here. But even if we are, I disagree. Is this short enough for you?



I have serious doubts Whitebeard in his old age can gauntlet two Admirals with no heals but that's a discussion for another day.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I have serious doubts Whitebeard in his old age can gauntlet two Admirals with no heals but that's a discussion for another day.



Well... I'm not talking about the WB at the beginning of MF, but WB at beginning of MF minus pirate aids, so no heart attack and better reaction time and speed. This is essential the same WB that fodderise Ace back when.

I appreciate and understand why you believe so, but even some people in this thread:  believe this WB version can gauntlet 3 admiral level fighters so I don't think that my opinion is too much of a stretch here.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

Harard said:


> Well then, if that's the case, Marco sending both Kizaru and Aokiji flying were visible damage as well.
> 
> Not to mention that bloody lip Kuzan received from Jozu.
> 
> If you want to include a small scratch as visible damage, I could think of many other examples.



Jozu had a free shot and a bloody lip is all he can do to an admiral. The same thing goes for Marco, kicked them once each, and one was a sneak attack. Not impressive at all.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 25, 2014)

^ Seriously, oOLawlietOo you're a lot better than this. Taking all into consideration, if the C3 is absolutely superior to Jozu or Marco, then Oda wouldn’t have need to go to the extent of them getting distracted with WB’s heart attack in order to take Jozu down.

All in all, IMO: Akainu => Aokiji =>Kizaru => Marco > Jozu. Jozu might be half a tier below the C3 & Marco, but a fucken impressive guy none then less and he would have being able to do considerably more should they have fought on even grounds.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 25, 2014)

Stop denying the truth. What happens when an admiral gets a free shot at Jozu? He's out throughout the whole war. What happens when WB himself gets a free shot at an admiral? The admiral stands up and takes half your face off, and goes down because it's WB. See the difference? The admirals and the top commanders are not on the same ballpark, like I said, the admirals and the yonkou are on the same ballpark, not the commanders.


----------



## Harard (Mar 25, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Jozu had a free shot and a bloody lip is all he can do to an admiral. The same thing goes for Marco, kicked them once each, and one was a sneak attack. Not impressive at all.



Kizaru had a free shot against a seastoned Marco, and yet Marco still left the war relatively fresh. Not impressive at all.

Two can play this game.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2014)

I *disagree *with Harard. Kizaru had 2 free shots at Marco. The second one needed outside help from a strong VA and sea-stones. Not to mentioned Akainu had a free shot against a WB and 100 free shots from elite marine officers right after due to a heart attack and he kept on fighting.

Taking everything into consideration Marco, C3 & Sick Old Injured and Heavily Handicapped WB are give or take on the same ball park. Jozu, not quite there, but still impressive and should be given credit where credits are worth nonetheless.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 26, 2014)

Harard said:


> Kizaru had a free shot against a seastoned Marco, and yet Marco still left the war relatively fresh. Not impressive at all.
> 
> Two can play this game.



Marco has the ability to regenerate. For all we know, he might have been as healthy as he was at the beginning of the war. That's how his ability works. Aokiji doesn't have that kind f ability. Jozu landed a free direct hit, and a bloody lip is all. He's not on their level, or on the same ballpark. He can hold his own, anyone at that level can hold his own, but that's it.


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Mar 26, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Marco has the ability to regenerate. For all we know, he might have been as healthy as he was at the beginning of the war. *That's how his ability works. Aokiji doesn't have that kind f ability. Jozu landed a free direct hit, and a bloody lip is all.* He's not on their level, or on the same ballpark. He can hold his own, anyone at that level can hold his own, but that's it.



you dont even try to hide your double standard, really.

what do you think would happen if aokiji didn't have the ice fruit, but say, foxys slow motion fruit? would he still be able to one shot a distracted jozu?

nope. aokiji was only able to do this because of his df, because thats what his fruit does, a fact you didnt acknowledge, yet you make bold claims to downplay marco a la "its only because of his df yada yada".


----------



## hmph (Mar 26, 2014)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> you dont even try to hide your double standard, really.
> 
> what do you think would happen if aokiji didn't have the ice fruit, but say, foxys slow motion fruit? would he still be able to one shot a distracted jozu?
> 
> nope. aokiji was only able to do this because of his df, because thats what his fruit does, a fact you didnt acknowledge, yet you make bold claims to downplay marco a la "its only because of his df yada yada".



The point is that managing that little with a hit shows the difference between them. Generally when you hit someone you'd like to be able to leave a bruise or do some other damage. But the admirals look like they could let the commanders hit them all day. Its also a response to the common claim that Aokiji's fight only ended against Jozu because of a surprise hit, but actually Jozu got one first. If one wishes to pass off df powers in an analysis of a character's strength, then Marco was a dead bird at the start of the war; but if you qualify them (and I personally think so) then thats when the fight became fair as well as over.

Also remember Marco's regeneration isn't endless. At a level where characters can fight for a week straight, taking hits just because he can regenerate them isn't a clever thing to do.


----------



## Harard (Mar 26, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Marco has the ability to regenerate. For all we know, he might have been as healthy as he was at the beginning of the war. That's how his ability works. Aokiji doesn't have that kind f ability. Jozu landed a free direct hit, and a bloody lip is all. He's not on their level, or on the same ballpark. He can hold his own, anyone at that level can hold his own, but that's it.



Ability to regenerate or not, it doesn't matter. If he was an admiral, you wouldn't have brought up this up. Still, even when he was handcuffed, he proved he could tank Kizaru's free shots. 

The fact that Marco could send Kizaru flying when they were facing each other proves that they are indeed on the same level. The fact that Marco and his crew was hyped by the Gorosei as the only pirates along with the other Yonkou crew capable of stopping the BB pirates also proves that Aokiji alone would get stomped by them.

Yonkou first mates were always hyped to be on the same general level as an admiral. Not as strong, but certainly on the same general ballpark. The fact that Rayleigh was the pirate king's first mate doesn't make him an exception. I don't expect EOS Zoro to be the only first mate to be in the same ballpark as an admiral, either.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 26, 2014)

Harard said:


> Ability to regenerate or not, it doesn't matter. If he was an admiral, you wouldn't have brought up this up. Still, even when he was handcuffed, he proved he could tank Kizaru's free shots.
> 
> The fact that Marco could send Kizaru flying when they were facing each other proves that they are indeed on the same level. The fact that Marco and his crew was hyped by the Gorosei as the only pirates along with the other Yonkou crew capable of stopping the BB pirates also proves that Aokiji alone would get stomped by them.
> 
> Yonkou first mates were always hyped to be on the same general level as an admiral. Not as strong, but certainly on the same general ballpark. The fact that Rayleigh was the pirate king's first mate doesn't make him an exception. I don't expect EOS Zoro to be the only first mate to be in the same ballpark as an admiral, either.



Actually, it does make an exception. The Roger's were the strongest crew to ever set sail. Stronger than the WB's, stronger than any yonkou crew we've seen. It is natural to assume that the pk right hand is actually really strong, WB roger strong, otherwise the crew wouldn't be considered the strongest crew ever. WB's crew would be as strong since WB was as strong as roger, dont you  think?

The SHs will be an exception too. Their top members will be stronger than your normal first mate. And that hype means nothing. We all know it's luffy who's taking teach down. Marco had the power two years ago , not now.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 26, 2014)

GrizzlyClaws said:


> you dont even try to hide your double standard, really.
> 
> what do you think would happen if aokiji didn't have the ice fruit, but say, foxys slow motion fruit? would he still be able to one shot a distracted jozu?
> 
> nope. aokiji was only able to do this because of his df, because thats what his fruit does, a fact you didnt acknowledge, yet you make bold claims to downplay marco a la "its only because of his df yada yada".



You're talking about an alternative manga that does not exist. In one piece, aokiji has the the ice fruit and jozu had the diamond fruit.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 26, 2014)

Sorry Lawliet, but I have to disagree with you here



> Actually, it does make an exception. The Roger's were the strongest crew to ever set sail. Stronger than the WB's, stronger than any yonkou crew we've seen.



It's not necessarily a fact that they were the strongest crew ever(with WB's crew around), but I do think that was likely the case. 

However, it was only Roger & WB whom were distinguished as men amongst boys, or more proportionately, I should say, as a step above/ahead/ 



> It is natural to assume that the pk right hand is actually really strong, WB roger strong,



Whitebeard & Roger, were, in their prime, portrayed as equals and unrivalled. Rayleigh, Garp, Sengoku, Shiki, were all up there, but those two were in a league of their own.



> Marco had the power two years ago , not now.



What do you mean? Marco's not that old, and still should be in his prime.

Rayleigh on the other hand, is past his prime, and in the current timeline, his former glory of being the PK's first mate doesn't make him an exception any more than the first mates of the Emperors, since he has long since been that powerful.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 26, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Actually they did. Marco was damaged by Kizaru's lasers in their first encounter, but he just regenerated right away.



Can you show any on guard attack where there is no Onigumo or WB getting heart attacks, that did lasting damage to Marco? Also "they" is incorrect. Akainu never hurt Marco so you can't use a plural for that.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 26, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Jozu had a free shot and a bloody lip is all he can do to an admiral. The same thing goes for Marco, kicked them once each, and one was a sneak attack. Not impressive at all.



So sending physical beasts flying is not impressive. Just like stopping YNM isn't impressive right? I could just as easily flip your argument around and say Kizaru off guard attacked Marco. Do you see how it's pointless trying to downplay Marco's feats?


----------



## GrizzlyClaws (Mar 26, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> You're talking about an alternative manga that does not exist. In one piece, aokiji has the the ice fruit and jozu had the diamond fruit.



your inability to adress the point someone makes in response to you is worrying, to say the least.

the part of my post you responded to was a rhetorical question and you ignored the point of my post, ie you are using a strawman to wriggle yourself out of an unpleasant situation.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 26, 2014)

Lawliet is getting ganged.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2014)

hmph said:


> The point is that managing that little with a hit shows the difference between them. Generally when you hit someone you'd like to be able to leave a bruise or do some other damage. But the admirals look like they could let the commanders hit them all day. Its also a response to the common claim that Aokiji's fight only ended against Jozu because of a surprise hit, but actually Jozu got one first. If one wishes to pass off df powers in an analysis of a character's strength, then Marco was a dead bird at the start of the war; but if you qualify them (and I personally think so) then thats when the fight became fair as well as over.
> 
> Also remember Marco's regeneration isn't endless. At a level where characters can fight for a week straight, taking hits just because he can regenerate them isn't a clever thing to do.



I have never seen such a level of down play in one post. Jozu have the second strongest strength feat in this entire manga and you legitimately believe anyone could tank his hits all day? What you need to consider is the nature of their fighting style also. Jozu is brawler and just like Garp. Thier physicallity isn't going to take down a top tier immediately.

Would you also care to provide me details of how long that regen last for? I will address this in more detail later.


----------



## hmph (Mar 26, 2014)

> Would you also care to provide me details of how long that regen last for? I will address this in more detail later.



Hmm? It's in the sbs explanation of his ability.



			
				Oda said:
			
		

> O: Yeah, I know... I've omitted the explanation from this war arc, because I focused on the pacing and wanted to move the story forward. To explain Marco's ability just a little bit: he's Zoan, so he does have a body. But since he's got "the blue fire of revival" - the Phoenix's ability - wounds will regenerate, so attacks will not damage him (though there's a limit to the regeneration). In other words, the flames are for regeneration. These blue flames don't have the characteristics of actual fire - they don't spread and burn things, and they aren't hot. They're completely different from Ace's flames. I might touch on this in the main story at some point, so I'll leave it at this for now.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2014)

We all seen this. I am asking to give me a number. 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year, etc. Everyone has a limit with their abilities, stamina, endurance, etc.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 26, 2014)

> What do you mean? Marco's not that old, and still should be in his prime.


Marco had the power to take Teach down two years ago, not now. Teach has grown to a level where Marco can't do shit about it unless future Luffy helps. 



> Rayleigh on the other hand, is past his prime, and in the current timeline, his former glory of being the PK's first mate doesn't make him an exception any more than the first mates of the Emperors, since he has long since been that powerful.


That's not what I was talking about, but I'll reply...
Actually, it does make an exception. The whole Roger's are an exception to any law that applies to a normal pirate. Proven by Kizaru who said the Roger's specifically can't be forgiven for anything, this doesn't really prove much, I know, but you get what I mean. The Roger's are an exception to everything, otherwise they wouldn't be the ones who reach raftle and understand the true history. The SHs are going to be the next exceptional crew. at least three fighters admiral+ level by EOS, they are the ones who are going to reach raftel and flip the world upside down. You get what I mean. 



> Can you show any on guard attack where there is no Onigumo or WB getting heart attacks, that did lasting damage to Marco? Also "they" is incorrect. Akainu never hurt Marco so you can't use a plural for that.


I can't show you anything of that because Marco is not a pussy. He can hold his own against an admiral, anyone on his level can do that. But I'm saying when an admiral gets distracted, they can quickly balance things out. When a commander gets distracted, he's either out for good, or out for most of the end.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 26, 2014)

> Marco had the power to take Teach down two years ago, not now. Teach has grown to a level where Marco can't do shit about it unless future Luffy helps.



Neither did the Yonko though, by that logic. 

The Gorosei predicted that the Yonko & Marco had the power to do so, but none of them were able to. It is no more a detractor from Marco, than it is on the Emperors. 



> That's not what I was talking about, but I'll reply...
> Actually, it does make an exception. The whole Roger's are an exception to any law that applies to a normal pirate.



But the WBs are exceptional too, and far from being normal pirates. Fact of the matter was that they were legends of the same ilk as the Roger Pirates were. 



> Proven by Kizaru who said the Roger's specifically can't be forgiven for anything, this doesn't really prove much, I know, but you get what I mean.



This is reaching a bit, because there's no context to exceptional power here. "Sin" was what Kizaru was referring to, and Roger was seen as the most evil entity from the World Government's side of things. 



> The Roger's are an exception to everything, otherwise they wouldn't be the ones who reach raftle and understand the true history.



Whitebeard was capable of becoming Pirate King, in terms of power, and was even pretty much, given a free pass to One Piece by Roger. However, he simply held no personal interest. 

Is Prime Rayleigh exceptional? Sure, but fact of the matter is that we don't even know if he was any stronger than the current Yonko, like Shanks. 

Old Ray on the other hand, hasn't showed anything that makes him stand out from a Yonko First Mate, or an Admiral.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 26, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> When a commander gets distracted, he's either out for good, or out for most of the end.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


>



I can't open your links.

Shrug it off? He regenerates, what from he regenerates you don't understand? If he thinks he had a shot at someone like Garp he would have flown back there again, after all, it's his brother, they're doing this in the first place to rescue him, no reason for Marco not to fly back and try again except Garp being there to punch him flying back to where he came from. 

Marco gets distracted, a VA makes him pretty much useless for most of the end of the war. An admiral gets distracted, fucking blood lusted WB doesn't even take him out for more than 5 minutes, and not with sacrificing half of his own face.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

> Neither did the Yonko though, by that logic.
> 
> The Gorosei predicted that the Yonko & Marco had the power to do so, but none of them were able to. It is no more a detractor from Marco, than it is on the Emperors.


We both know that the Yonkou don't really give a darn unless you directly mess with them.  And we both know Teach is much smarter than this, proven by not taking on Shanks during MF.



> But the WBs are exceptional too, and far from being normal pirates. Fact of the matter was that they were legends of the same ilk as the Roger Pirates were.


No they were not. By comprehension, you can tell that Shanks and Marco met for the first time when Shanks visited WB on his ship. Shanks and Marco look the same age, more or less. Shanks was a kid at Roger's time, what could a Marco kid do to the likes of Prime Rayleigh? Rayleigh must have been taking it easy on them, otherwise he would have murdered the whole commanders, Add Scopper who looks like a monster, and you have a slaughter house. 



> Whitebeard was capable of becoming Pirate King, in terms of power, and was even pretty much, given a free pass to One Piece by Roger. However, he simply held no personal interest.
> 
> Is Prime Rayleigh exceptional? Sure, but fact of the matter is that we don't even know if he was any stronger than the current Yonko, like Shanks.
> 
> Old Ray on the other hand, hasn't showed anything that makes him stand out from a Yonko First Mate, or an Admiral.



WB was not as exceptional as Roger. You said it yourself, a free pass to one piece by Roger. If WB's main goal was to reach Raftel, there's no proof that he could actually do it, no proof for vice versa either I know. And think about it for a second. The fact that it's Roger's treasure that everyone is trying to get proves that he's more exceptional than WB. What would WB do if he reached Raftel first? What one piece would he create?

This is the 2nd time I write this whole thing by the way <.<, I thought I clicked submit the first time.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> 1. I can't open your links.
> 
> 2. Shrug it off? He regenerates, what from he regenerates you don't understand? If he thinks he had a shot at someone like Garp he would have flown back there again, after all, it's his brother, they're doing this in the first place to rescue him, no reason for Marco not to fly back and try again except Garp being there to punch him flying back to where he came from.
> 
> ...



1. I could.

2. No, it has nothing to do with regeneration when fighting Garp and even if it does it doesn't change the fact that that is what he's capable of.

3) Wrong, it was a VA and Kizaru.

4. I know you're bias a fuck and don't ever listen to reasoning, so I being avoiding responding to your post, unless there was something utterly and absolutely wrong and all I am responding so is your comment about “When a commander gets distracted, he's either out for good, or out for most of the end.”, which is utterly and completely bias and those pages is more than enough prove your claim wrong. If you want to go and change the topic and start talking about Akainu or an Admirals feats, you’ll need to understand that this will not be a straight forward debate and will requires endless hours and energy to look at these in a convincing manner and TL;DR will needed to be written from both sides. Are you prepared for this?


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

stop accusing me of shit when your links don't work for the majority in here. I can't see what pages you're talking about. If you're talking about how Marco stood up and walked even after getting cuffed by a VA, not Kizaru. Then that's not what I meant by out for most of the end. He was cuffed by the VA, I don't care if he survived two lasers from Kizaru, he should, he's not weak, what I'm saying is, he could not use his ability which is why he could not protect Ace. Why did he ask them to get the cuffs off right after, so he can do shit.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

> We both know that the Yonkou don't really give a darn unless you directly mess with them.  And we both know Teach is much smarter than this, proven by not taking on Shanks during MF.



That's baseless bro 

The Yonko are obsessed with controlling territory and expanding their power & influence. Why wouldn't they see Teach as a threat? You're painting a double standard. The fact of the matter was that the Yonko, and Marco + remnants, did not stop Teach, whether they could or not. 




> No they were not. By comprehension, you can tell that Shanks and Marco met for the first time when Shanks visited WB on his ship. Shanks and Marco look the same age, more or less. Shanks was a kid at Roger's time, what could a Marco kid do to the likes of Prime Rayleigh? Rayleigh must have been taking it easy on them, otherwise he would have murdered the whole commanders, Add Scopper who looks like a monster, and you have a slaughter house.



The Whitebeard Pirates fought countless times with the Roger Pirates. Whether it was Marco, or older members of WB's crew, holding the fort, that's what happened. 

Sure, logically, it's hard to wrap one's head around the idea that a young Marco should be able able to fight Prime Ray. But all of this  is pointless talk really, since

1) this doesn't mean that Prime Rayleigh was as strong as Prime WB/Roger

2)  I was never claiming that Prime Rayleigh wasn't exceptional. I was referring to the washed up and rusty Old Rayleigh, whom occupies the same reality and timeline with a Marco who is theoretically, much stronger than his own younger version. The point is that Old Ray has shown nothing to make him stand out, or be exceptional amongst the Yonko first mates, or average Admiral, let alone the C3 or Yonko. 




> WB was not as exceptional as Roger. You said it yourself, a free pass to one piece by Roger. If WB's main goal was to reach Raftel, there's no proof that he could actually do it, no proof for vice versa either I know.



This isn't true, and you know it. Whitebeard was equal to Roger in every sense of the word. This is an indisputable fact until proven otherwise. Whitebeard was said to be the only one who contended on equal terms with Roger; they were drawn side by side together in a spread highlighting their golden age; and right after Roger died, Newgate was the undisputed World's Strongest Man, because he was the only one who Roger level. Not Rayleigh, not Garp, not Sengoku, not Kong, and not Shiki. 

As for the second sentence: Not everything in this series is about "proof", or evidence, especially when concerning intangible aspects, such as portrayal, of characters we haven't even seen in real time conflict. 

It's about the narrative: Whitebeard was the WSM; Whitebeard was equal to Roger; Whitebeard was never interested in treasures or riches, but had a more mundane dream of family; Whitebeard made clear to Roger that he was never interested in the One Piece himself. All these things serve to paint a larger picture not to deceive the reader and mislead them to think that Whitebeard probably wasn't able to become Pirate King, but instead, to let them know that WB was certainly just as capable as Roger, but held less interest. It boils down to the very fundamentals of reading comprehension. Can't ignore these details. 



> And think about it for a second. The fact that it's Roger's treasure that everyone is trying to get proves that he's more exceptional than WB. What would WB do if he reached Raftel first? What one piece would he create?



This doesn't "prove" anything, because we still don't know if 

1) what the treasure is, which means that it is not an indicator of Roger or WB's capabilities 

2) if One Piece was something Roger created after he completed his journey/campaign across the Grand Line & New World, or if it was something he found in the final island of Raftel, which then became his greatest possession. 

If it was the former, we still wouldn't know for sure, since it could simply be an object of great personal value to Roger, which would render theorisations of who was more exceptional, completely irrelevant. 

If it was the latter, then Whitebeard could have definitely done it, since he was just as influential, exceptional, and powerful as Roger. However, he simply had no interest in going to Raftel, as for him, his crew was his greatest treasure.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2014)

Dolfa said:
			
		

> The point is that Old Ray has shown nothing to make him stand out, or be exceptional amongst the Yonko first mates, or average Admiral, let alone the C3 or Yonko.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


>



How does that make him stand out amongst the Yonko first mates, Admirals or Colored Trio? 

If he isn't even able to fight on par with Kizaru, then he wouldn't be who he is


----------



## Coruscation (Mar 27, 2014)

You really don't think Garp speaking of Rayleigh in the same breath as Whitebeard and saying they can't face two such legends at the same time makes him exceptional relative to Yonkou FMs? =/ That piece of hype is always taken far too lightly solely because he panted against Kizaru or something. Even his portrayal of alleged inferiority against Kizaru is just something we assume based on relatively shallow evidence and a general notion that maybe an old out of practice Ray "shouldn't" be stronger than Kizaru. It's definitely not solid at all. Rayleigh's hype is still through the roof and Oda has portrayed him with nothing but the utmost respect.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> You really don't think Garp speaking of Rayleigh in the same breath as Whitebeard and saying they can't face two such legends at the same time makes him exceptional relative to Yonkou FMs? =/ That piece of hype is always taken far too lightly solely because he panted against Kizaru or something. Even his portrayal of alleged inferiority against Kizaru is just something we assume based on relatively shallow evidence and a general notion that maybe an old out of practice Ray "shouldn't" be stronger than Kizaru. It's definitely not solid at all. Rayleigh's hype is still through the roof and Oda has portrayed him with nothing but the utmost respect.



Oh I do think that the implications of what Garp said, should not be brushed off, and I'll address this below, gimme a sec. 

I think, that his showing against Kizaru which was pointed at me by Sabo here, isn't really a solid argument to show that. To me, Rayleigh's showing against Kizaru wasn't notably any more exceptional than Marco's. 

As for Garp's words: I'm not gonna downplay that statement, which was a nice bit of hype, but in my mind, it can also be argued, that it speaks more so, to his resume and longevity. There is no doubt that Rayleigh's history is much more impressive than any other first mate, and Ray is a legend like Whitebeard. They were both very formidable pirates of their era, in the golden age, and from a point of exposition, it was used to prepare us for the man we saw at the Auction House, but while it should not be disregarded, I don't think that it directly correlates to the notion that Rayleigh is as strong as Whitebeard. In the same vein that the C3's assumed superiority is not a solid notion at all, I don't think that this aspect of hype is too concrete either. I'm not necessarily questioning the credibility of what your saying, but just that I'm sure you know that the statement doesn't paint a crystal clear picture, as it is also broad. 

 I simply am not convinced that a current rayleigh is any more exceptional than the first division commander of the world's strongest man, or the right hand/first mate & partner of the protagonist's main inspiration/benchmark, who was also a role model for Luffy growing up; that's all.  In more simple terms, I just am not thoroughly convinced that it would be immediately relevant, when not only has he regressed, but guys like Marco & Beckman, have no doubt, gotten much stronger, closing the gap, and I do think, that they are strong enough to be on the same level as him, unless Beckman proves to be even more impressive down the road.

So I'm assuming for now that Beckman~Rayleigh~Marco


----------



## trance (Mar 27, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Is Prime Rayleigh exceptional? Sure, but fact of the matter is that we don't even know if he was any stronger than the current Yonko, like Shanks.



I can't really agree to this notion.

I agree that old Rayleigh's strength is pretty much set in stone; he's comparable to Marco and a bit below the Logia trio in overall standing.

However, I can't see Rayleigh at his peak only being as strong as Shanks or maybe even weaker. In terms of strength and speed, he was approximately equal with Kizaru. Because of his lower stamina, however, Kizaru began to gain the edge. This is Rayleigh after 22 years of slacking off. Now, imagine if Rayleigh in his strongest form fought Kizaru. Am I saying or implying he could fodderize Kizaru? Of course not but he could most likely have beaten him without being pushed to his limits. Now, unless Shanks is so much stronger than Kizaru (which I, for one, don't think he is) then it would most likely be the same outcome as with Kizaru. Even though Shanks is probably a bit stronger than Kizaru, old Rayleigh should still be able to hold his own and prime Rayleigh should be able to beat Shanks.

Also, the fact that he was Roger's right hand man and successor should something have happened to Roger during their tenure with the Roger pirates, it can be reasonably assumed Rayleigh was pretty close in strength to Roger and Whitebeard in their heyday. As Corus said, Rayleigh has been hyped and talked about with much respect. I interpret Garp's words as such; Rayleigh *in his prime* was as big of a threat or maybe even a greater one than Whitebeard in his old age, who was the "World's Strongest Man" at the time. For me, that's enough collective evidence to assume Rayleigh at his peak was above everyone two years ago, bar perhaps Whitebeard and even then, he'd be above the other Emperors and the Admirals.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Freechoice (Mar 27, 2014)

To me that implies a younger (Prime) Rayleigh would have been capable of holding off an admiral + helping the SH's, or dealing with the admiral then helping them, the latter being unlikely.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I can't really agree to this notion.
> 
> I agree that old Rayleigh's strength is pretty much set in stone; he's comparable to Marco and a bit below the Logia trio in overall standing.
> 
> ...



It's really just where you stand on the issue. 

There is no right or wrong answer(some may lead you to believe otherwise, even though it's just a double standard at this point until we can draw from more conclusive material), and looking at it one way may seem more possible than the other, though the people on the other side would think the same too. 

A) Your point of view:

-Rayleigh in his old age, is approximately equal to Kizaru(meaning an either way or extreme diff fight as the outcome, I presume?)

-Rayleigh in his prime, was pretty close in strength to Roger/WB

-Rayleigh in his prime, was either as strong, or stronger than Old WB 



B) My point of view:

-Rayleigh in his old age, would be able to fight Kizaru to a standstill for an extended period of time(as indicated in their fight), but would eventually lose, definitively, due to the Admirals' monstrous stamina and Kizaru's versatility(so I'd presume a high/very high diff win for Borsalino)

-Rayleigh in his prime, as the right hand to Roger, was close, but WB/Roger were a step ahead, whom were in a league of their own

-Rayleigh in his prime, was as strong, or weaker than Old WB(speculation) 


As you can see, the factors concerned in A, add to a collective sum which supports the notion that he was an echelon above the Yonko

The below factors concerned in B, add to a collective sum which supports the notion that he was Yonko level, which is what I speculate him to be, more or less. I would make another point based on the possibilities surrounding an Endgame Zoro/Mihawk, but that has no place in the Battledome. 


No actually. I do not think that you can draw so much from Garp's statement, and call it "evidence" to say that he would have been, by default, superior to all reigning top tiers of the current generation. 

Garp's statement is not to be dismissed, but it isn't a chief principal which speaks for and accounts for so many different possibilities as well. In my mind, Garp spoke of Rayleigh as a legend in the same breath as Whitebeard, because, along with the likes of himself, Roger, Whitebeard, Shiki, and Sengoku, Rayleigh was indeed, one of the men who stood at the top of the era during their Golden Age. Obviously, his history and status in his prime, lands him in the conversation.

*The real questions are: How close was P. Ray to P. Roger, and is a Yonko is strong enough to become the PK's first mate(which I believe they should be)? If these questions are answered, then everything falls into place.*


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I can't show you anything of that because Marco is not a pussy. He can hold his own against an admiral, anyone on his level can do that. But I'm saying when an admiral gets distracted, they can quickly balance things out. When a commander gets distracted, he's either out for good, or out for most of the end.



The admirals didn't have seastone shackles around them for a good part of the war.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

> That's baseless bro
> 
> The Yonko are obsessed with controlling territory and expanding their power & influence. Why wouldn't they see Teach as a threat? You're painting a double standard. The fact of the matter was that the Yonko, and Marco + remnants, did not stop Teach, whether they could or not.



Don't compare the Yonkou to Marco. 
Marco had a personal problem with Teach, the yonkou didn't. As far as Kaidou concerned, Teach is not an enemy, he took WB down, just like he wanted. BM? we both know she only cares about her candies, if they should be afraid of someone it's Luffy, son of Dragon and grandson of Garp, BM knows Garp, she knows Luffy's potential, she didn't give a darn about him until he directly messed with her. Don't use the "baseless" thing because it supports your argument when you know as much as I do that the yonkou don't give a darn, we've seen it already.



> The Whitebeard Pirates fought countless times with the Roger Pirates. Whether it was Marco, or older members of WB's crew, holding the fort, that's what happened.
> 
> Sure, logically, it's hard to wrap one's head around the idea that a young Marco should be able able to fight Prime Ray. But all of this is pointless talk really, since
> 
> ...



Garp considered Rayleigh on the same league as WB who happened to be on the same league as Roger. I'm pretty sure no one in the marines knows about the old seas better than Garp, this was made clear as the sun. I'll take Garp's words on your speculations, sorry.  Rayleigh hasn't  used his sword in 20 years, since Luffy was born and more (if we're talking about SA) Yet, he was able to stop arguably the strongest admiral , this is a discussion for another day, and managed to escape afterwards even though Kizaru made it clear that the Roger's must be killed and not forgiven...etc Tell me that's not impressive, it's Kizaru we're talking about. 



> This isn't true, and you know it. Whitebeard was equal to Roger in every sense of the word. This is an indisputable fact until proven otherwise. Whitebeard was said to be the only one who contended on equal terms with Roger; they were drawn side by side together in a spread highlighting their golden age; and right after Roger died, Newgate was the undisputed World's Strongest Man, because he was the only one who Roger level. Not Rayleigh, not Garp, not Sengoku, not Kong, and not Shiki.
> 
> As for the second sentence: Not everything in this series is about "proof", or evidence, especially when concerning intangible aspects, such as portrayal, of characters we haven't even seen in real time conflict.
> 
> It's about the narrative: Whitebeard was the WSM; Whitebeard was equal to Roger; Whitebeard was never interested in treasures or riches, but had a more mundane dream of family; Whitebeard made clear to Roger that he was never interested in the One Piece himself. All these things serve to paint a larger picture not to deceive the reader and mislead them to think that Whitebeard probably wasn't able to become Pirate King, but instead, to let them know that WB was certainly just as capable as Roger, but held less interest. It boils down to the very fundamentals of reading comprehension. Can't ignore these details.



You're not getting half of what I said. What can one man do by his own? To be the PK, you'll need the strongest crew, otherwise you will not eliminate the competition. Until proven otherwise, there were no ex commanders that are top tiers right now until proven otherwise, this includes Kaidou. The Roger's were said to be the strongest crew ever to live, that was stated in the Manga itself I believe. WB could match the captain since he's the captain of his own crew, but his crew could not match Roger's crew, otherwise they would have been called the strongest crew ever to live instead of the Roger's. Fact is, if WB managed to beat Roger in a fight to Raftel, he still got the rest of the crew to handle, because his crew got nothing on the likes of prime Rayleigh and Scopper, yes he's a top tier, have you seen his face.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

> This doesn't "prove" anything, because we still don't know if
> 
> 1) what the treasure is, which means that it is not an indicator of Roger or WB's capabilities
> 
> ...



no no no... it is not irrelevant. 

Number 2 is "baseless". We know Roger had an ancient weapon with him, that will probably be on raftel along with many other things he found on his journey. I don't think he found something special at Raftel unless it's some stones with some words..etc

Roger said I put it all in there, his treasure that he gathered for years and will flip the world upside down when someone finds it, that's the treasure he gathered, what would WB put in raftel? his abnormal weapon that no one can normally use?


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> The admirals didn't have seastone shackles around them for a good part of the war.



Good luck proving they'd be as useless as Marco without their abilities.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeah I wasn't sorry. I hit submit by accident then edit and made a new post for some reason.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

> Don't compare the Yonkou to Marco.
> Marco had a personal problem with Teach, the yonkou didn't. As far as Kaidou concerned, Teach is not an enemy, he took WB down, just like he wanted. BM? we both know she only cares about her candies, if they should be afraid of someone it's Luffy, son of Dragon and grandson of Garp, BM knows Garp, she knows Luffy's potential, she didn't give a darn about him until he directly messed with her. Don't use the "baseless" thing because it supports your argument when you know as much as I do that the yonkou don't give a darn, we've seen it already.



Never compared him to the Yonko

I said that the Yonko were stated to be capable of ending Teach, yet they didn't which is a matter of fact, and I don't think Marco can defeat Yonko Teach either 

My original post was: 



> What do you mean? Marco's not that old, and still should be in his prime.



You responded with:



> Marco had the power to take Teach down two years ago, not now. Teach has grown to a level where Marco can't do shit about it unless future Luffy helps.



Where's the correlation here



> Garp considered Rayleigh on the same league as WB who happened to be on the same league as Roger. I'm pretty sure no one in the marines knows about the old seas better than Garp, this was made clear as the sun. I'll take Garp's words on your speculations, sorry.



Except you don't seem to be able to logically comprehend his words properly.

"Two legends at the same time". 

Does that automatically make Rayleigh equal to Whitebeard? He was in the conversation, but it's no literal comparison





> Rayleigh hasn't  used his sword in 20 years, since Luffy was born and more (if we're talking about SA) Yet, he was able to stop arguably the strongest admiral , this is a discussion for another day, and managed to escape afterwards even though Kizaru made it clear that the Roger's must be killed and not forgiven...etc Tell me that's not impressive, it's Kizaru we're talking about.



1) Exactly, he's been out of action for 20 years, so he's obviously gotten rustier than he was in his prime

2) Kizaru isn't the strongest Admiral

3) when did I say his confrontation with Kizaru was not impressive? that's a pretty pointless assumption on your part 



> You're not getting half of what I said. What can one man do by his own? To be the PK, you'll need the strongest crew, otherwise you will not eliminate the competition. Until proven otherwise, there were no ex commanders that are top tiers right now until proven otherwise, this includes Kaidou.



That's because you weren't being the least bit specific. Be more clear.

All this time, you were arguing about how Roger was more exceptional than WB, so of course it would lead one to believe that it has a correlation to their individual standings. 



> The Roger's were said to be the strongest crew ever to live, that was stated in the Manga itself I believe.



Don't remember that or where, but maybe 



> WB could match the captain since he's the captain of his own crew, but his crew could not match Roger's crew, otherwise they would have been called the strongest crew ever to live instead of the Roger's.



Still not sure if that's what they were called, but yeah, I never argued that the WB Pirates were the strongest crew in Roger's time or anything, so you're just barking up the wrong tree 



> Fact is, if WB managed to beat Roger in a fight to Raftel, he still got the rest of the crew to handle, because his crew got nothing on the likes of prime Rayleigh and Scopper, yes he's a top tier, have you seen his face.



no your just sidetracking 

you claimed that Roger was more exceptional than Whitebeard, and because of how you used the term "exceptional" prior, with Rayleigh & Marco, the only fair way to read or interpret what your saying, is if you were speaking of them, power-wise, and that was what I was disputing  



oOLawlietOo said:


> no no no... it is not irrelevant.
> 
> Number 2 is "baseless". We know Roger had an ancient weapon with him, that will probably be on raftel along with many other things he found on his journey. I don't think he found something special at Raftel unless it's some stones with some words..etc
> 
> ...






This is what you said



> If WB's main goal was to reach Raftel, there's no proof that he could actually do it,



which led me to believe that you were saying WB would not have been capable of conquering the Grand Line, and since this whole time, you were trying to argue about how Rayleigh was more exceptional than Marco, power-wise in your view, it led me to believe that you were doing the same with Roger over Whitebeard, and not the other factors like the Ancient Weapons, Will of D, Ability to Hear All Things and etc. etc..

really looks like we're not on the same page here, or you deviated...


----------



## Ancient Archtroll (Mar 27, 2014)

Look at dem virgins discussing unimportant shit over pages.

marco > aokiji
jozu (two arms) >/= aokiji
aokiji > jozu (one arm)
aokiji > vista

this is a complete stomp


----------



## Harard (Mar 27, 2014)

Same ole Old Generation overhype. It never ends.


----------



## Harard (Mar 27, 2014)

Scopper is certainly top tier because his face

looool


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Good luck proving they'd be as useless as Marco without their abilities.



Let's have a run down of this. There haki is on par with each other and physical strength. So what difference will it make? Your grasping. You have nothing to prove the Marco downplay other than bias.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

> Where's the correlation here



No correlation here, because I wasn't comparing Marco to Rayleigh, I was comparing Marco to Teach. I don't know why you brought Rayleigh in the argument, but I replied since you brought him in. Hope it makes sense. 




> No your just tinkering with his words.
> 
> "Two legends at the same time".
> 
> Does that automatically make P. Ray equal to P. WB?


No it doesn't, but it does put him on the same ballpark as WB. Garp considered Rayleigh as much of a legend as WB himself. Jinbei was shocked to see someone like Rayleigh in person when he was watching WB in person for years, that's how much of a legend Rayleigh is. I know, you never said he's not a legend or any of that, but I'm trying to reach a point, which is; with all due respect, you're underestimating Rayleigh a little bit. He was Roger's right hand for god's sake Luke. If anything, he's the most exceptional person right after Roger. He was the person Roger relied on to achieve his dreams. Without Rayleigh, Roger would probably achieve nothing, at least not the PK achievement, just like how Luffy would not do it without Zoro and the rest. I know we should not do parallels or whatever, but I know you're a smart guy and parallels actually work a lot of times. Where do you see EOS Luffy comparing to EOS Zoro? 



> 1) Exactly, he's been out of action for 20 years, so he's obviously gotten rustier than he was in his prime
> 
> 2) Kizaru isn't the strongest Admiral
> 
> 3) when did I say his confrontation with Kizaru was not impressive? that's a pretty pointless assumption on your part



1- And you still don't find that as impressive as Marco's achievements? Let Marco quit fighting for 20 years, and put him against Kizaru, we'll see how things go, and I don't need Marco to be as old as Rayleigh, he can be 10 years younger if you want, he'd still not do as good as Rayleigh and please don't say baseless, because deep down, you know it's true. Exceptional people have been introduced already. Marco aint one of them. 

2- I disagree 
3- I never said you didn't find it impressive, I was just asking a question waiting for you to confirm the answer for me, but for some reason you assumed I was assuming you found that not impressive at all, I don't think that way, I know better than that. But yeah, I guess I should stop assuming people can read my mind and explain things better, I tend to do that a lot. 



> you clearly claimed that Roger was more exceptional than Whitebeard, and that was what I was disputing


I still think he is. People like Akainu admit it. You don't have to explain yourself, I know. I know that Akainu was saying that to get into Ace, but the fact remains that Akainu got himself to say what he said to Ace, and that counts. 



> which led me to believe that you were saying WB would not have been capable of conquering the Grand Line, and since this whole time, you were trying to argue about how Rayleigh was more exceptional than Marco, power-wise in your view, it led me to believe that you were doing the same with Roger over Whitebeard, and not the other factors like the Ancient Weapons, Will of D, Ability to Hear All Things and etc. etc..
> 
> really looks like we're not on the same page here, or you deviated...



I know about Roger as much as you do, hell, you might no more. When I said more exceptional I assumed you knew what I was talking about. Roger had things WB didn't. Ancient weapon, will of a D, amongst many other things such as a crew WB's crew will never beat, thus he will never be the PK even if he wanted to. Sorry, I'll stop assuming you can read my mind and actually type what I have in mind.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 27, 2014)

Ancient Archtroll said:


> Look at dem *virgins* discussing unimportant shit over pages.
> 
> marco > aokiji
> jozu (two arms) >/= aokiji
> ...



Show me your girlfriend


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Let's have a run down of this. There haki is on par with each other and physical strength. So what difference will it make? Your grasping. You have nothing to prove the Marco downplay other than bias.



Then explain why Marco was not able to hurt Akainu? He caught Aokiji off guard, and all he could do is send him away for few secs.  (I wouldn't really call it off guard since it's war, it's Aokiji's fault for not seeing Marco coming), but you know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Harard said:


> Scopper is certainly top tier because his face
> 
> looool



Have you seen those Axes he's holding? And that smile while fighting? I'll personally kill Oda if he fails delivering on Scopper.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Then explain why Marco was not able to hurt Akainu? He caught Aokiji off guard, and all he could do is send him away for few secs.  (I wouldn't really call it off guard since it's war, it's Aokiji's fault for not seeing Marco coming), but you know what I'm talking about.



Glad you asked. 

Kuzan has had very positive showings when using haki yet Marco was able to bypass his logia defence and send him flying. Marco was in a positive mind frame during this endeavour. 

While fighting Akainu he just watched Ace get murdered. IIRC This highly affected his willpower. Haki is willpower. When you're mourning for most you don't feel strong of have lots of willpower. Marco and Vista were both greatly devastated by Ace's death and their haki wasn't bale to flow properly. 

Furthermore certain individuals when facing situations like these use this to fuel on their will power. In WB's case his willpower increased to murder Akainu, while some people are more sensitive like Marco and Vista hence making them not be able to flow their haki properly.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> Glad you asked.
> 
> Kuzan has had very positive showings when using haki yet Marco was able to bypass his logia defence and send him flying. Marco was in a positive mind frame during this endeavour.
> 
> ...



I knew all this already. You did not bring something new at all. This only proves that Marco is not as experienced as he looks. WB used his emotions to build his anger and destroy the enemy while the rest got weaker. If you think about it, Ace wasn't dead when Marco jumped in. Ace was still alive and talking to Luffy, but Akainu pointed out that it's too late for Ace. If anything, Marco's will should have increased to save his brother from a certain death situation, he wasn't dead yet, but his will was crushed for few seconds and you know what happened after.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

> No correlation here, because I wasn't comparing Marco to Rayleigh, I was comparing Marco to Teach. I don't know why you brought Rayleigh in the argument, but I replied since you brought him in. Hope it makes sense.



haha noted XD 




> No it doesn't, but it does put him on the same ballpark as WB. Garp considered Rayleigh as much of a legend as WB himself.



well yeah, he shouldn't have been that far behind the strength of his captain and the latter's equal, but some of you guys are making it sound like the man is dead equal to em'. 



> you're underestimating Rayleigh a little bit.




How? Demonstrate how I'm underestimating him.



> He was Roger's right hand for god's sake Luke. If anything, he's the most exceptional person right after Roger.



jesus man, why are you barking up the wrong tree? I never disputed that he was this in his prime. 



> He was the person Roger relied on to achieve his dreams. Without Rayleigh, Roger would probably achieve nothing, at least not the PK achievement, just like how Luffy would not do it without Zoro and the rest. I know we should not do parallels or whatever, but I know you're a smart guy and parallels actually work a lot of times. Where do you see EOS Luffy comparing to EOS Zoro?



Like I said, I already know that, no need to sing his songs of praise. 

I can see Luffy being PK level, and Zoro being Yonko level. 





> 1- And you still don't find that as impressive as Marco's achievements? Let Marco quit fighting for 20 years, and put him against Kizaru, we'll see how things go, and I don't need Marco to be as old as Rayleigh, he can be 10 years younger if you want, he'd still not do as good as Rayleigh and please don't say baseless, because deep down, you know it's true. Exceptional people have been introduced already. Marco aint one of them.



This is pure drivel. 

You are not even remotely attempting to stay on topic. 

For one, I'm not comparing Marco at old age versus current Rayleigh, or Marco at his current age, versus a Prime Rayleigh. How hard is it to grasp that from my initial post, I was saying all along, that I do not find Old Ray's achievements to be more impressive or "exceptional" compared to Current Marco's achievements? You keep sidetracking and fabricating these elaborate scenarios based on alternate realities, to try to make it seem like my viewpoint is unreasonable, when your only doing your ability to address my points, no favors. 

And secondly, this "deep down, you know it's true" is hogwash. Are you a mind reader or prophet perhaps?




> 2- I disagree



I'd post an emote to express the lack of strictness or seriousness enveloping me now, and to show that this is all in good nature, since I am rarely hostile in these debates, but you know, it'd be kinda silly.  




> 3- I never said you didn't find it impressive, I was just asking a question waiting for you to confirm the answer for me, but for some reason you assumed I was assuming you found that not impressive at all, I don't think that way, I know better than that. But yeah, I guess I should stop assuming people can read my mind and explain things better, I tend to do that a lot.



Weren't you trying to read my mind just a couple paragraphs ago?  

As for this part, you said, "How is that not impressive?" So of course, that would lead me to believe that you thought I found the scene unimpressive, or that I had said that, when I didn't. 



> I still think he is. People like Akainu admit it. You don't have to explain yourself, I know.I know that Akainu was saying that to get into Ace, but the fact remains that Akainu got himself to say what he said to Ace, and that counts.



He also called Whitebeard a fish in a barrel and a loser. Are these statements accurate too? 




> I know about Roger as much as you do, hell, you might no more. When I said more exceptional I assumed you knew what I was talking about. Roger had things WB didn't. Ancient weapon, will of a D, amongst many other things such as a crew WB's crew will never beat, thus he will never be the PK even if he wanted to. Sorry, I'll stop assuming you can read my mind and actually type what I have in mind.



don't think I'd know more since we're reading the same manga...

if we talk about all that, it's no longer a battledome discussion though, so yeah..


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> The point is that Old Ray has shown nothing to make him stand out, or be exceptional amongst the Yonko first mates, or average Admiral, let alone the C3 or Yonko.



I?ve am concern and in disagreement to this one phrase ?be exceptional amongst?. You?re painting a picture in a sense that he needed to show some sort of feats superior to the other top tiers to be considered on the same level, which I completely disagree with. To-date, everything he?s shown have being give or take dead to Kizaru even during the old age. 




Doflαmingo said:


> So I'm assuming for now that Beckman~Rayleigh~Marco



I disagree with this. Marco was put slightly under the C3 because of him lacking offensive compare to the C3 and was portrayal to be at a disadvantage against Akainu at the end of the war, but everything that Ray have shown and demonstrated that he?s equal to or even have an edge at times. Lets see how Ray was portray against Kizaru carefully.

During their battle in the very beginning, Kizaru clearly indicated that he needed to capture the SHs,  otherwise he the marines won?t be able to show their face with the Celestial Dragon and possible the world government and later when Kuma appears, he indicates that he could not trust Kuma, yet all Kizaru continue to do is stalemating Ray, therefore suggesting that Kizaru have done everything he could and likewise Ray also states similar things during the fight making them even.
The only time Kizaru was shown to have a slight edge over Ray is when he panted, but often enough people take this out of proportion and use it as absolute facts to determine and scale Rayleigh?s power, which is unfair to say the less.

There are also times when Ray have shown to have a slight advantage by able to stop  Kizaru dead in his track while trying to teleport away and draw blood from Kizaru with a smile on his face.

Outside of that battle, Ray have shown to have incredible stamina with this trip to Amazon lilly. Sure, that stamina feat isn?t as impressive and fighting for 10 days, but that?s not the point. Ray was completely fine, therefore that further solidify that the ?panting? thing back is SA was completely blown out of proportion and what his stamina level is still uncapped.

Portrayal wise, as Corus have stated already. Garp hype Ray and WB is the same breath and the fact that an older sicker WB is still the strongest man in the world and Ray got positioned under an average pre-skip top tier is unfair and inconsistent to the picture Oda have painted for the Dark King. Further to this, Oda also hype Ray up on the same breath with Shanks in a sense that both of can demolished the entire 100,000 fishman crew in a single CoC blow during an SBS session indicates the utmost respect for the Dark King?s power. 

The fact remains that there?s no concert evident to completely determine exactly what old Ray is truly capable off when everything is considered. You believe that he?s slightly below Kizaru, which is okay, but me saying that Ray = Kizaru is also plausible but at the same time people who believe Ray is slightly above isn?t completely baseless either.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I knew all this already. You did not bring something new at all. This only proves that Marco is not as experienced as he looks. WB used his emotions to build his anger and destroy the enemy while the rest got weaker. If you think about it, Ace wasn't dead when Marco jumped in. Ace was still alive and talking to Luffy, but Akainu pointed out that it's too late for Ace. If anything, Marco's will should have increased to save his brother from a certain death situation, he wasn't dead yet, but his will was crushed for few seconds and you know what happened after.



If you know this then why ask me the question? He was in the crew since Roger was there, experience has absolutely nothing to do with it. Some people take things differently. Are Marco and WB the same person? Personality has little to do with experience in this case. 

Just more support for Marco that you have yet to rebut. Oda didn't make him fight Kizaru and tango with all admirals for shits and giggles. Also your argument that Marco didn't hurt Akainu could easily be reversed and you could say Akainu didn't hurt Marco. Do you see how futile it is to use that argument?


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 27, 2014)

Sabo: I've already addressed everything I needed to in the previous posts 

You are not adding anything new here to what some of the others have already said, and I just find it strange that you'd usually say I'm the one who writes tl;drs and etc. etc. when you quote like, two of my sentences, before responding with paragraphs too


----------



## Magician (Mar 27, 2014)

If Jozu can hurt Aokiji, I find it hard to believe that Marco can't do the same.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> You are not adding anything new here to what some of the others have already said, and I just find it strange that you'd usually say I'm the one who writes tl;drs and etc. etc. when you quote like, two of my sentences, before responding with paragraphs too



When I say that, it's generally a joke and please takes it as a compliment. I don't mind long posts and actually prefer it.

I did read over yours and other people's post, and yes I did add new things though such as the 100,000 fishman CoC portrayal and looking at their clash in a different perspective and indirectly agreeing to disagree using the last paragraph quoted below.

It okay though, no need to elaborate further as I already know what you're going to say from other threads and previous posts, though because you chose to reply to my post, in respect I put forward the time to elaborate on my stands. That’s all.





> The fact remains that there’s no concert evident to completely determine exactly what old Ray is truly capable off when everything is considered. You believe that he’s slightly below Kizaru, which is okay, but me saying that Ray = Kizaru is also plausible but at the same time people who believe Ray is slightly above isn’t completely baseless either.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> If Jozu can hurt Aokiji, I find it hard to believe that Marco can't do the same.



Can you imagine getting kicked by Marco on the chin at a speed of light?


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

@Luke, I know I brought a lot of things that don't make sense when you read them at first, but they're connected to each other in a way. I know you were not comparing Marco to prime Rayleigh or all that, but I guess I did that since we're talking about a character as an overall and not just at specific time. You can know a lot about a person by knowing their past. It's the same principle as you have to know your history to improve your country, I was just going for Rayleigh's past (Prime) to see what he can offer right now comparing to Rayleigh. Like I said, I should stop assuming people know what I'm going for. Sorry for all the confusion, Economists are all about theories/predictions/speculations...etc That's why I always say Feats are not all, and that's why don't use baseless all the time, because as an economists, I know speculations and predictions can come true if you're following the right premises. I know people share different views and all, but that's why I'm trying to explain my views, it may seem that I am not trying to stay on the same topic, but I am, trust me. I am just using what I can to prove my opinion, after all, Oda hasn't given us a lot in the first place.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 27, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> If you know this then why ask me the question? He was in the crew since Roger was there, experience has absolutely nothing to do with it. Some people take things differently. Are Marco and WB the same person? Personality has little to do with experience in this case.
> 
> Just more support for Marco that you have yet to rebut. Oda didn't make him fight Kizaru and tango with all admirals for shits and giggles. Also your argument that Marco didn't hurt Akainu could easily be reversed and you could say Akainu didn't hurt Marco. Do you see how futile it is to use that argument?



I ask because I wanna hear what you have to say. I don't wanna jump to conclusions and assume you're gonna say something, and actually say something else. 

Akainu never hurt Marco either, I get that. I think you all think I'm trying to downplay Marco. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fact person. You may not think I am, but  really, I am.

Not that this changes anything, but just so you know; I hate the character Marco. He was disappointing. Maybe it's my fault because I expected a lot at first, and didn't get much. Even though I hate that character, I still have a lot of expectations for him. I'm pretty sure he'll play a huge role in the future, no doubt about that.  I don't see him as a weak character. Marco is actually an experienced pirate , more or less. He did not lose his mind like Luffy during MF. He kept fighting even though he saw both his "dad" and "brother" die in front of his own eyes. He dropped some tears and wiped them off like a man and kept on fighting, I'm not trying to take that away from him. He probably has one of the best abilities in the whole series. I just don't see Marco pushing an admiral like you guys think. My own personal opinion would be, Marco loses to any admiral introduced so far 10 times out of 10. That's my original point.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 27, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Not that this changes anything, but just so you know; I hate the character Marco. He was disappointing.


I wonder if this was the original mentality of all the other WB Commander basher out there? Good thing are, there’s less and less of these people lurking this forum.





oOLawlietOo said:


> Maybe it's my fault because I expected a lot at first, and didn't get much. Even though I hate that character, I still have a lot of expectations for him. I'm pretty sure he'll play a huge role in the future, no doubt about that. I don't see him as a weak character. Marco is actually an experienced pirate , more or less. He did not lose his mind like Luffy during MF. He kept fighting even though he saw both his "dad" and "brother" die in front of his own eyes. He dropped some tears and wiped them off like a man and kept on fighting, I'm not trying to take that away from him. He probably has one of the best abilities in the whole series.


You reserve a rep for this. 




oOLawlietOo said:


> I just don't see Marco pushing an admiral like you guys think. My own personal opinion would be, Marco loses to any admiral introduced so far 10 times out of 10. That's my original point.



Just so you know, most of the guys that jumped you also believe so (at least with the C3). Glade we have this sorted.


----------



## trance (Mar 27, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> It's really just where you stand on the issue.
> 
> There is no right or wrong answer(some may lead you to believe otherwise, even though it's just a double standard at this point until we can draw from more conclusive material), and looking at it one way may seem more possible than the other, though the people on the other side would think the same too.



Eh. I agree more or less. I just think there are more hints and implications that point to him being closer to Roger/Whitebeard (prime) then the Yonko/Admirals at the peak of his strength.



> A) Your point of view:
> 
> -Rayleigh in his old age, is approximately equal to Kizaru(meaning an either way or extreme diff fight as the outcome, I presume?)



I think you interpreted my words a bit different than what I intended. My apologies. Whilst having roughly equivalent strength and speed, his stamina would cause him to weaken before either he could inflict any serious damage to Kizaru or before Kizaru began to seriously weaken. He could obviously push Kizaru quite far but not far enough where Kizaru could face the possibility of losing and/or being pushed to his absolute limits. As you explained to Sabo (Admiral Aokiji), without any externalities, despite being close, he would lose to any of the Logia trio 10 times out of 10 and I agreed with this notion. 



> -Rayleigh in his prime, was pretty close in strength to Roger/WB





> -Rayleigh in his prime, as the right hand to Roger, was close, but WB/Roger were a step ahead, whom were in a league of their own



I see where you're coming from since Whitebeard was acknowledged as Roger's only equal. I just consider him the Zoro to Roger's Luffy since the parallels are uncanny. I can see where one might not see the same thing I see since Zoro's strength in comparison to Luffy can be interpreted differently. :/



> -Rayleigh in his prime, was as strong, or weaker than Old WB(speculation)



I'm mostly moot on this but I just wanna say that it be pretty disappointing if Roger's right hand man in his strongest form is weaker than Roger's rival in his old age and where his strength is much weaker. It kinda kill his hype. :/



> No actually. I do not think that you can draw so much from Garp's statement, and call it "evidence" to say that he would have been, by default, superior to all reigning top tiers of the current generation.



Sorry. "Evidence" was the wrong word. I guess "indications" would be a better word.



> Garp's statement is not to be dismissed, but it isn't a chief principal which speaks for and accounts for so many different possibilities as well. In my mind, Garp spoke of Rayleigh as a legend in the same breath as Whitebeard, because, along with the likes of himself, Roger, Whitebeard, Shiki, and Sengoku, Rayleigh was indeed, one of the men who stood at the top of the era during their Golden Age. Obviously, his history and status in his prime, lands him in the conversation.



I guess to each their own. 



> *The real questions are: How close was P. Ray to P. Roger, and is a Yonko is strong enough to become the PK's first mate(which I believe they should be)? If these questions are answered, then everything falls into place.*



I don't think as highly of the old generation top tiers like some do but I do, indeed, believe that at the peak of their strength, most or all of them truly were a step above the top tiers of the current generation and will only be surpassed by the top tiers of Luffy's generation. I know the saying "the next generation will surpass the previous" but the middle generation wasn't truly extraordinary in comparison to Roger's generation.

Whitebeard, one of the dominant beings of the old generation, kept most of the upper echelon powers of the middle generation in check despite not being interested in power or conquering territory like his peers were and was still considered a step above everyone else as indicated by his title.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 28, 2014)

Will address Sabo & Starkiller shortly


----------



## Coruscation (Mar 28, 2014)

> As for Garp's words: I'm not gonna downplay that statement, which was a nice bit of hype, but in my mind, it can also be argued, that it speaks more so, to his resume and longevity.



We know full well Garp was not saying those words because Rayleigh is a legend and has a nice resume. He was saying them because he has personally seen Rayleigh countless times and at this point knows him possibly better than anyone in the world, save perhaps Shakky, and definitely more than any other Marine just from clashing with Roger so many times. Garp said what he did because he knows from personal experience that Ray is a monster who isn't even out of place being named in the same sentence as Whitebeard himself. Saying that a statement like that doesn't make him stand out relative to Yonkou FMs is just plain not true. It's more like a statement you'd expect about one of the Yonkou themselves frankly speaking ("Do really you think we can take on two Yonkou at the same time?").



> while it should not be disregarded, I don't think that it directly correlates to the notion that Rayleigh is as strong as Whitebeard.



Why respond like this when I didn't remotely imply that it would imply Rayleigh = Whitebeard and you know completely well that is not something I believe or intended to say? =/ This feels like a faux response to the argument. Of course it doesn't imply Ray=WB. My question was do you honestly not think it implies Rayleigh would be exceptionally strong among Yonkou FMs? Kaidou, Big Mom's first mates or Shiryuu would garner the same level of reaction and respect? If Marco and Beckman would that just means they are also exceptionally strong.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

> Just so you know, most of the guys that jumped you also believe so (at least with the C3). Glade we have this sorted.


This is what I'm mostly trying to prove when debating about Marco. People just read some of my posts and ignore or don't see the others and assume I'm saying something I'm not. Then they call me bias as fuck even though I'm probably one of the least bias people in here.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

> My question was do you honestly not think it implies Rayleigh would be exceptionally strong among Yonkou FMs? Kaidou, Big Mom's first mates or Shiryuu would garner the same level of reaction and respect? If Marco and Beckman would that just means they are also exceptionally strong.



The only pirates I remember getting the same reaction and respect as Rayleigh are the yonkou themselves, not their first mates. All this can change by EOS of course.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 28, 2014)

> Why respond like this when I didn't remotely imply that it would imply Rayleigh = Whitebeard and you know completely well that is not something I believe or intended to say? =/ This feels like a faux response to the argument. Of course it doesn't imply Ray=WB. [



I know that's not something you believe, or was implying, and as I said before, I wasn't trying to discredit your arguments or anything. 



> My question was do you honestly not think it implies Rayleigh would be exceptionally strong among Yonkou FMs?



Now that you've clarified your position, in that Marco & Beckman would also be considered exceptional amongst the Yonko FMs, I have no problem in honouring and commemorating the weight of that argument.

My post which strove to address Lawliet, attempted to challenge the claim that Rayleigh was more exceptional than Marco(to a notable degree), and to demonstrate why that might not necessarily be the case. By "Yonko FMs", I was really referring to Marco & Ben Beckmann.

If that caused a misunderstanding for everyone, then I should have been more specific.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> Now that you've clarified your position, in that Marco & Beckman would also be considered exceptional amongst the Yonko FMs, I have no problem in honouring and commemorating the weight of that argument.
> 
> My post which strove to address Lawliet, attempted to *challenge the claim that Rayleigh was more exceptional than Marco*(to a notable degree), and to demonstrate why that might not necessarily be the case. By "Yonko FMs", I was really referring to Marco & Ben Beckmann.
> 
> If that caused a misunderstanding for everyone, then I should have been more specific.



Let?s compare Marco and Ray then. The reason people believe Marco is below the C3 is because he?s lacking in offensive comparing to the C3. This is not the case for Ray.

The reason people being Marco is comparable feat wise to the Admirals is because he?s got comparable speed, strength, endurance and a hax defensive DF ability (with an unknown limit). Ray is also comparable when we look at these stats. 

The only thing people might be able to take away from Ray is the stamina thing, but keep in mind Marco looked very bad when fighting Akainu after he got out of the sea-stone cuff and panted a lot worst. Of course people can argue that Marco?s stamina drained dramatically due to losing blood for an extended period of time but that is just as plausible as when people argue against the notion that his regeneration already helped him recover the blood and wound. In the same sense that people taking Ray panting as guilty until proven otherwise despite him showing that he was completely fine for the rest of the fight and demonstrated to have monstrous stamina outside of that battle.

Hype & Portrayal wise, Marco is the successor of WB pirate, Ray is Roger pirate. Marco was hype in the same breath as the Yonkou, Ray was hype in the same breath as the Old WB in his old age and the legends in his prime.

Everything suggested implies that he?s above Marco (even if it?s slightly). 

IMO, based on what we?ve seen so far the power scaling should be:

Akainu => Aokiji => Kizaru => Rayleigh > Marco ~ Fujitora ~ Sengoku.

In saying that, the above should or be considered top tier and admiral level, though I don?t believe other FM have shown enough to put them in the same category?yet.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Then they call me bias as fuck even though I'm probably one of the least bias people in here.



You?re a good guy, but with all due respect quite a lot of your post is comparable to ZFG. That is why people have being saying that.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

> My post which strove to address Lawliet, attempted to challenge the claim that Rayleigh was more exceptional than Marco(to a notable degree), and to demonstrate why that might not necessarily be the case. By "Yonko FMs", I was really referring to Marco & Ben Beckmann.



But it is the case. Even at old age he's still considered a legend and was a threat as much as WB. Benn and Marco will not be considered like that ever. Rayleigh was the first mate of a PK and WB was Roger's equal (strength wise). Benn and Marco are not as strong as WB nor they are the first mates' of a PK. Marco's age does not support that he was with WB through out the whole journey. And we saw that in WB's flash backs. We know that Roger and Rayleigh started together. He is more special.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> You?re a good guy, but with all due respect quite a lot of your post is comparable to ZFG. That is why people have being saying that.



Show me a post where I typed the type of posts zfg types. Unless I was being sarcastic, you're not gonna find such a post.


----------



## Magician (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> You?re a good guy, but with all due respect quite a lot of your post is comparable to ZFG. That is why people have being saying that.



Comparable to ZFG? Seriously?

I think you're too emotionally invested in this argument, lol.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Show me a post where I typed the type of posts zfg types. Unless I was being sarcastic, you're not gonna find such a post.



For a start, I don't belive ZFG is as bad as most people see in this forum, so please don't take it the wrong way. Maybe using ZFG might not be a good example, but let me explain.

It's comparable in a sense that you generally post your opinion in controversial topics without clearly explaining to the opposite parties your belief. An example would be our latest post here: 



♦Young Master♦ said:


> Comparable to ZFG? Seriously?
> 
> I think you're too emotionally invested in this argument, lol.



Not really, I go in and out of this thread/debate and only jump in when someone says something I out right disagree on.


----------



## rext1 (Mar 28, 2014)

I see the discussion taken a new turn. I'm actually confused that people are questioning Rayleigh's status as an uber-exceptional firstmate. With some placing him just above Marco???

I'm curios are they talking simply of current Rayleigh??(Who hasnt been a firstmate for decades) or actual first-mate of the Roger Pirates Prime Rayleigh?? 

Because Prime Rayleigh should be in the general ballpark as Prime-WB + Roger IMO!!!.  Marco doesnt have that hype- I have a difficult time visualizing him holding his own against ol' WB let alone Prime WB.  

Rayleigh like Zoro is the kind of guy who would have outsiders scratching their heads in puzzlement asking how in the world anybody had managed to subordinate a guy like that....


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> For a start, I don't belive ZFG is as bad as most people see in this forum, so please don't take it the wrong way. Maybe using ZFG might not be a good example, but let me explain.
> 
> It's comparable in a sense that you generally post your opinion in controversial topics without clearly explaining to the opposite parties your belief. An example would be our latest post here:
> .



Tell me what's wrong with that post you linked. You don't think Fuji can fuck anyone on that island?


----------



## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Tell me what's wrong with that post you linked. You don't think Fuji can fuck anyone on that island?



Nope, I don't think so. And my response to this is below.



			
				AA said:
			
		

> you generally post your opinion in controversial topics without clearly explaining to the opposite parties your belief.



By not clearly stating your stands, I originally misinterpret that post as you believe that Fuji can take on SHs, DD Pirates & Law at the same time, which if that was true is in fact a very bias opinion. 


In the past I post stuff on controversial topics without stating my stands such "Marco can hurt Kizaru, but Kizaru can't hurt Marco", which in a sense could be considered as "bias as fuck" or somewhat trolling. But I did learn that the hard way and have since tried to improve the quality of my post where possible.

It's none of my business and please fell free to keep doing what makes you feel happy and I'm just making this post to answer your question.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

I never said they'll all be coming at Fuji at once. You're just not reading my post or not even bothering and using the "you don't clearly explain your posts". And why you keep saying people and quoting people when I don't give a flying shit about what people think. People think you're too obsessed with this. What about that.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 28, 2014)

rext1:



> . I'm actually confused that people are questioning Rayleigh's status as an uber-exceptional firstmate. With some placing him just above Marco???
> 
> I'm curios are they talking simply of *current Rayleigh??(Who hasnt been a firstmate for decades) *or actual first-mate of the Roger Pirates Prime Rayleigh??



I speak of the bolded, yet people keep trying to make it seem like I've been comparing Marco to Prime Rayleigh, which I haven't done a single time 

@ Admiral Aokiji:

 I'll address the more direct comparisons of the two when I finally address your previous post directed at me, so please stop posting barrages of posts to every sentence I make  I will respond at some point, just give me time. I literally have my hands full with Starkiller, Corus, Lawliet, and you. 




> The only thing people might be able to take away from Ray is the stamina thing, but keep in mind Marco looked very bad when fighting Akainu after he got out of the sea-stone cuff and panted a lot worst. Of course people can argue that Marco’s stamina drained dramatically due to losing blood for an extended period of time but that is just as plausible as when people argue against the notion that his regeneration already helped him recover the blood and wound. In the same sense that people taking Ray panting as guilty until proven otherwise despite him showing that he was completely fine for the rest of the fight and demonstrated to have monstrous stamina outside of that battle.



I don't really understand. You are saying that he looked very bad when fighting Akainu, and you are arguing against his offense....but weren't you one of the most adamant and vocal people when it came to Marco's portrayal against the Admirals and his offensive capabilities? Make up your mind. 

Marco panting=/=Rayleigh panting 
Totally different contexts



> Hype & Portrayal wise, Marco is the successor of WB pirate, Ray is Roger pirate. Marco was hype in the same breath as the Yonkou, Ray was hype in the same breath as the Old WB in his old age and the legends in his prime.
> 
> Everything suggested implies that he’s above Marco (even if it’s slightly).



This "in the same breath" business is starting to get tediously stretched, with how you are trying to forcefully compare them.

They were not statements written by Oda to draw a direct comparison between these two. That's really grasping. 

Garp made that remark, to suggest that the Marines can't take on both legends at the same time. Also I would wager to guess that it is due to the fact that even if Kizaru would win win against Rayleigh, he would be very injured, and they can't risk that with a pivotal or Paramount War approaching and looming over their heads, with an Admiral effectively being 1/3(or 1/5 if you count Garp/Goku) of the Marine's military. This is further evident by Kizaru's statement of "preparations". it's just best to have him at his best shape for the war. 

The Gorosei made that remark, to list the candidates whom stand a chance at curbing Teach's rise to power and seizing of territory. The reason why guys like Mihawk, the Admirals, or Rayleigh weren't named, is because they do not lead the crews which the Yonko or the Remnants are, and because their motives have nothing to do with the power struggle of the Emperors. 

These statements were not made or written with a comparison between Rayleigh & Marco in mind. 





> IMO, based on what we’ve seen so far the power scaling should be:
> 
> Akainu => Aokiji => Kizaru => Rayleigh > Marco ~ Fujitora ~ Sengoku.
> 
> In saying that, the above should or be considered top tier and admiral level, though I don’t believe other FM have shown enough to put them in the same category…yet.



I won't comment on the other FMs

IMO: Akainu>=Aokiji=Kizaru>or>)Rayleigh~Beckmann~Marco~Fujitora


----------



## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

*@ Dofla,* thanks for responding. Just wanted to let you know that I'll probably read but might not respond to or respond after the weekend if you're going to respond to all my posts. It's up to you if you want to put the time and effort to do so though. 

That said, why bother? Come on, it's weekend. I posted my stands, you posted yours. This isn't even a debate. I treat it more like a friendly conversation, so it's not like you/me have to be the last one posting to win. No one is going to win.

We all have lives, so let not waste too much time on TL;DR, especially if we have better and more important things to do during a this weekend. Though if you enjoying spending the time to draft a response and reply, then who I am to stop you ay?

edit:



			
				Dofla said:
			
		

> I literally have my hands full with Starkiller, Corus, Lawliet, and you.



Don't forgot Lionel and UJ as well.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 28, 2014)

sure

but your making it sound like I'm more invested in these  than you are

yeah I have my hands full and I don't have the time to respond to every single person; maybe later


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 28, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I ask because I wanna hear what you have to say. I don't wanna jump to conclusions and assume you're gonna say something, and actually say something else.
> 
> Akainu never hurt Marco either, I get that. I think you all think I'm trying to downplay Marco. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fact person. You may not think I am, but  really, I am.
> 
> Not that this changes anything, but just so you know; I hate the character Marco. He was disappointing. Maybe it's my fault because I expected a lot at first, and didn't get much. Even though I hate that character, I still have a lot of expectations for him. I'm pretty sure he'll play a huge role in the future, no doubt about that.  I don't see him as a weak character. Marco is actually an experienced pirate , more or less. He did not lose his mind like Luffy during MF. He kept fighting even though he saw both his "dad" and "brother" die in front of his own eyes. He dropped some tears and wiped them off like a man and kept on fighting, I'm not trying to take that away from him. He probably has one of the best abilities in the whole series. I just don't see Marco pushing an admiral like you guys think. My own personal opinion would be, Marco loses to any admiral introduced so far 10 times out of 10. That's my original point.



I think that Marco loses ot the C3 10/10 tiomes. I just believe that the admirals would be pushed to high diff. They would have to go all out but wouldn't lose a match against Marco but he's on par with them and I think he can push them quite far.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 28, 2014)

Slenderman said:


> *I think that Marco loses ot the C3 10/10 tiomes.* I just believe that the admirals would be pushed to high diff. They would have to go all out but wouldn't lose a match against Marco but he's on par with them and I think he can push them quite far.



I'm good with the bolded part, not the rest though.  If he's on par with them as you said, he wouldn't lose 10 out of 10. He would at least get one fight for himself. But I think he loses 10 out of 10 cuz he's NOT on par with the admirals. Post skip Marco might be a different case, MF Marco ? No


----------



## Shanks (Mar 28, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> sure
> 
> but your making it sound like I'm more invested in these  than you are



Did I? Sorry. I obviously have more time on my hand during the week days.



oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm good with the bolded part, not the rest though.  If he's on par with them as you said, he wouldn't lose 10 out of 10. He would at least get one fight for himself. But I think he loses 10 out of 10 cuz he's NOT on par with the admirals. Post skip Marco might be a different case, MF Marco ? No



These guys obviously are talking about a 100% fair scenario in all case including but not limited to location, mindset, etc, so even if it's Kizaru or Sengoku or Fujitora vs. Akainu, Akainu would still win 10/10 despite them on the same level.


BTW, for the guys that believe C3 win 10/10 with Marco, what if the scenario is on a empty warship in the middle of the ocean? That would still be a fair and plausible scenario, no? They are all DF users and plausible that they could meet at sea.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 29, 2014)

> I’ve am concern and in disagreement to this one phrase “be exceptional amongst”. You’re painting a picture in a sense that he needed to show some sort of feats superior to the other top tiers to be considered on the same level, which I completely disagree with. To-date, everything he’s shown have being give or take dead to Kizaru even during the old age.



Why you should you be concerned? It's really no big deal. 

Meanwhile, your trying to paint a murky picture to distort what my argument is about. 

You're fabricating a straw man where I've suggested that he needs to show superior feats for him to be considered on the same level as them. That was never the case. 

I was challenging the opinion that an Old Rayleigh was "exceptional" compared to the Yonko first mates like Marco & Beckman, and that was all. 



> I disagree with this. Marco was put slightly under the C3 because of him lacking offensive compare to the C3 and was portrayal to be at a disadvantage against Akainu at the end of the war, but everything that Ray have shown and demonstrated that he’s equal to or even have an edge at times. Lets see how Ray was portray against Kizaru carefully.



None of these are disadvantages he may necessarily have against Rayleigh, and you are operating under the assumption that Rayleigh was dead equal to the C3, and I can't get behind that. 



> During their battle in the very beginning, Kizaru clearly indicated that he needed to capture the SHs,  otherwise he the marines won’t be able to show their face with the Celestial Dragon and possible the world government and later when Kuma appears, he indicates that he could not trust Kuma, yet all Kizaru continue to do is stalemating Ray, therefore suggesting that Kizaru have done everything he could



Well what do you expect? Obviously Kizaru can't just get rid of Rayleigh ASAP. He isn't an opponent the Admiral can just finish off quickly. 



> The only time Kizaru was shown to have a slight edge over Ray is when he panted, but often enough people take this out of proportion and use it as absolute facts to determine and scale Rayleigh’s power, which is unfair to say the less.



Yes, it is taken out of proportion, at times. However, what your about to do here, is absolutely downplaying its significance. Oda doesn't simply include hints to take up panel spaces. 



> There are also times when Ray have shown to have a slight advantage by able to stop  Kizaru dead in his track while trying to teleport away and draw blood from Kizaru with a smile on his face.



You forgot to add the part where he managed to draw blood from his face *because Kizaru was trying to get to the SHs*. He gained no edge. And while Ray was smiling, Kizaru was putting on his troll face as usual. 



> Outside of that battle, Ray have shown to have incredible stamina with this trip to Amazon lilly.



It's great stamina, sure. But how can you quantify this in comparison to the Admirals? 



> Sure, that stamina feat isn’t as impressive and fighting for 10 days, but that’s not the point.
> Ray was completely fine, therefore that further solidify that the “panting” thing back is SA was completely blown out of proportion and what his stamina level is still uncapped.



All I'll say on the matter is this: endurance will indeed play a role in fighting against the Admirals whom can last up to 10 days fighting against each other, and this is especially important if your abilities may not be as dangerous or destructive. 

Rayleigh panted in a duel with Kizaru, while the latter did not. This doesn't automatically translate to Kizaru>Rayleigh, but it isn't a meaningless factor to be dismissed either. 




> Portrayal wise, as Corus have stated already. Garp hype Ray and WB is the same breath and the fact that an older sicker WB is still the strongest man in the world and Ray got positioned under an average pre-skip top tier is unfair and inconsistent to the picture Oda have painted for the Dark King.



Same breath=/=equals 

I've already elaborated on this before 

It's not inconsistent. Not one bit, if as I have said countless times, if you remember that Garp called him a legend alongside Whitebeard, a call back to the fact that Rayleigh was one of the most prominent figures of Roger/Whitebeard's Era. 

Old Ray is not suddenly as strong as the WSM just because of this statement. 



> Further to this, Oda also hype Ray up on the same breath with Shanks in a sense that both of can demolished the entire 100,000 fishman crew in a single CoC blow during an SBS session indicates the utmost respect for the Dark King’s power.



Once again, this might not be a literal comparison, unless you really think that Shanks is equal to Old Ray. 
IMO, it speaks and may compare, exclusively to their prowess in CoTC, and their prowess in CoTC, may not reflect their difference in power. 

For example, I do not think that Shanks is merely twice as strong as Luffy, who can knock out 50,000 fishman. Then again, I know that Corus may provide something more convincing as far as how much "twice as much" actually means. 



> The fact remains that there’s no concert evident to completely determine exactly what old Ray is truly capable off when everything is considered. You believe that he’s slightly below Kizaru, which is okay, but me saying that Ray = Kizaru is also plausible but at the same time people who believe Ray is slightly above isn’t completely baseless either.



There is never anything "concrete". 

It's about reaching for the more likely possibility here, and IMO Kizaru being stronger than Rayleigh is the most likely scenario.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 29, 2014)

Lawliet:



> Benn and Marco are not as strong as WB nor they are the first mates' of a PK.



Neither is Rayleigh, and Old Rayleigh is the _former_ first mate/right hand of the PK. 



> We know that Roger and Rayleigh started together. He is more special.



Once again, not talking about Rayleigh's entire history here, or a younger Rayleigh compared to Marco.

Just Old Ray VS Marco


----------



## Lmao (Mar 29, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm good with the bolded part, not the rest though.  If he's on par with them as you said, he wouldn't lose 10 out of 10. He would at least get one fight for himself.


What difference does it really make though? Marco losing 10/10 vs the C3, using the terminology on par with them, is still far better than Marco being on par with them possibly going either way vs Kizaru (who, like Aokiji, should be a hair weaker than Akainu).



Admiral Aokiji said:


> BTW, for the guys that believe C3 win  10/10 with Marco, what if the scenario is on a empty warship in the  middle of the ocean? That would still be a fair and plausible scenario,  no? They are all DF users and plausible that they could meet at  sea.


Plausible? Yes. Fair? Depends. How fair do you think it is  to have two combatants (one with aerial advantage and one without) fight  in a location where the 'arena' will 99.9% be destroyed by the level of  the attacks and falling to the sea = insta loss?


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

> BTW, for the guys that believe C3 win 10/10 with Marco, what if the scenario is on a empty warship in the middle of the ocean? That would still be a fair and plausible scenario, no? They are all DF users and plausible that they could meet at sea.


This already happened to aokiji and he survived perfectly.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

> Neither is Rayleigh, and Old Rayleigh is the former first mate/right hand of the PK.



So, just because he lived his life and he's much older than the others, we shouldn't count his achievements that he acquired at one point? So just because Alexander was a king at one point, we shouldn't think of him as a king anymore? You said Old, I just wanna make it clear that I'm comparing them to prime Rayleigh since they both look in their prime. We haven't seen old Benn or old Marco. 



> Once again, not talking about Rayleigh's entire history here, or a younger Rayleigh compared to Marco.
> 
> Just Old Ray VS Marco



I don't care about old Rayleigh vs Marco. That's not a fair comparison. Compare old Rayleigh to old Marco and I'm good, but we haven't seen old Marco yet, that's why I'm comparing prime Rayleigh to Marco since he looks in his prime anyways.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 29, 2014)

> So, just because he lived his life and he's much older than the others, we shouldn't count his achievements that he acquired at one point? So just because Alexander was a king at one point, we shouldn't think of him as a king anymore? You said Old, I just wanna make it clear that I'm comparing them to prime Rayleigh since they both look in their prime. We haven't seen old Benn or old Marco.



I was saying old ray to marco THIS WHOLE TIME. From beginning to start. 

You were the one who kept getting side-tracked and insisted on drawing comparisons based on different timelines. 



> I don't care about old Rayleigh vs Marco. That's not a fair comparison. Compare old Rayleigh to old Marco and I'm good, but we haven't seen old Marco yet, that's why I'm comparing prime Rayleigh to Marco since he looks in his prime anyways.



this is getting more and more ridiculous, and I think you are just trying to make it look like we've been talking about their primes this whole time(when we weren't) to make it seem like I'M the one who is being unreasonable. Stop trying to turn this discussion into something it never was. 

We're not talking about their potential, which is more fitting for a one piece discussion than a one piece battledome thread, where it is intangible/unquantifiable. 
I have been comparing Current Rayleigh to Current Marco from the very first post I made.


----------



## Lawliet (Mar 29, 2014)

Well, yeah I get that. And I said I get it some pages ago. I was just talking about the importance of their characters as a whole. 

 Current Rayleigh vs Marco is probably Rayleigh winning.


----------



## trance (Mar 29, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> yeah I have my hands full and I don't have the time to respond to every single person; maybe later



Hmm. Seems I've been tossed aside. I was a bit interested in your response too. Nevermind then.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 29, 2014)

^I'll address it soon enough


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 29, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> I'm good with the bolded part, not the rest though.  If he's on par with them as you said, he wouldn't lose 10 out of 10. He would at least get one fight for himself. But I think he loses 10 out of 10 cuz he's NOT on par with the admirals. Post skip Marco might be a different case, MF Marco ? No



On par means comparable to them as you know. Why would someone who has had positive exchanges with admirals not be on par with them? Is EL Sanji not on par with EL Zoro while we know that Sanji couldn't beat him but could still push him high diff? 

That argument doesn't work. On par doesn't have to mean you have a shot at beating them but rather can you push them quite greatly. Most agree the M3 have small gaps pre timeskip. Is Arlong not on par with Luffy despite giving him a high diff fight during Arlong Park? Do you see how many holes that argument has? You don't have to be able to beat someone to be comparable to them, which is essentially what on par means.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

Yo Luke, My hand's are just as full as you were with a few people gang banging me in the other thread. I'll reply to all your post later.


----------



## Magician (Mar 29, 2014)

I want the debate series to come back.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 29, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> I want the debate series to come back.



Wanna work together to organise something informal? I mean, who cares about the winning priZe anyway.


----------



## trance (Mar 29, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Wanna work together to organise something informal?



Make a debate fanclub or something.


----------



## Magician (Mar 30, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Wanna work together to organise something informal? I mean, who cares about the winning priZe anyway.



Nah, no one would sign up. It lost it's juice, most people don't have the energy for drawn out tl;dr debates.

I wish people had more interest. Twas pretty fun.


----------



## Slenderman (Mar 30, 2014)

There needs to be topics other than the ones we did that are good. Perhaps we need to give it some time.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Doflamingo said:
			
		

> I don't really understand. You are saying that he looked very bad when fighting Akainu, and you are arguing against his offense....but weren't you one of the most adamant and vocal people when it came to Marco's portrayal against the Admirals and his offensive capabilities? Make up your mind.


The point being there are two sides to the argument and no one side can truly prove another to be wrong beyond reasonable doubt. 

As for the argument about his offense, I think you quoted the wrong paragraph, but it doesn't matter. I have never denied that the Admirals or Ray have better offense than Marco. But I stand strong that he can do a lot more than what some other believed when looking at Marco & Vista vs. Akainu at face value and that's where I have being vocal about. That said, a Haki monster swordsmen or crazy AoE logia user will certainly have stronger offensive, but not to the extent of what guys like AK believe.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Marco panting=/=Rayleigh panting
> Totally different contexts



Actually, it is the same context for the point of this topic. That is comparing Ray and Marco's stamina. They both panted and Marco actually looked worst, but at the end of their battles, they both look completely fine. Some people may say Ray and Marco have stamina issues and others could stay they don't but no matter where you stand in this matter, Ray still looks better during, before or after their battles.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> This "in the same breath" business is starting to get tediously stretched, with how you are trying to forcefully compare them.
> 
> They were not statements written by Oda to draw a direct comparison between these two. That's really grasping.



Actually they are statements said by Oda through the words of Garp and the Goresie, whom both are authority and highly regard figures in the manga. Those two events are essentially exactly the same thing when it comes to portraying a characters threat and abilities, so I don't know why you would even consider that as forcefully comparison.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Garp made that remark, to suggest that the Marines can't take on both legends at the same time. Also I would wager to guess that it is due to the fact that even if Kizaru would win win against Rayleigh, he would be very injured, and they can't risk that with a pivotal or Paramount War approaching and looming over their heads, with an Admiral effectively being 1/3(or 1/5 if you count Garp/Goku) of the Marine's military. This is further evident by Kizaru's statement of "preparations". it's just best to have him at his best shape for the war.


And that simply give more credit to Ray over guys like Marco, is it not?



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> The Gorosei made that remark, to list the candidates whom stand a chance at curbing Teach's rise to power and seizing of territory. The reason why guys like Mihawk, the Admirals, or Rayleigh weren't named, is because they do not lead the crews which the Yonko or the Remnants are, and because their motives have nothing to do with the power struggle of the Emperors.



Now you're just playing the crew argument to try and make this portrayal as different as possible to disprove the comparison. A lot can be extracted from what the Gorosei said, and what you said is somewhat true, but it doesn't change the fact that Marco was indirectly crown by them as the leader of that group and was individually recognized by name, therefore giving him incredible portrayal.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> These statements were not made or written with a comparison between Rayleigh & Marco in mind.



Of course it were not made or written to compare these two, and Oda certainly isn't that type of person to do so, but when we're in civil conversation to discuss this topic, is about finding plausible evidences to make the comparison. I am comparing apples with apples (portrayal), so I don't see what the problem is.

Marco's portrayal in the same breath as Shanks, Big Mom and Kaido, while Old Ray's portrayal in the same breath as Old WB. It's quite obvious who's got better portrayal overall.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Why you should you be concerned? It's really no big deal.
> 
> Meanwhile, your trying to paint a murky picture to distort what my argument is about.
> 
> ...



The word "exceptional" is fairly in line with "superior", so why are you blaming me for interpreting your post that way? Ray doesn't need to be exceptional to be stronger; he just needs to be slightly stronger as the gaps between top tiers are generally marginal.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> None of these are disadvantages he may necessarily have against Rayleigh, and you are operating under the assumption that Rayleigh was dead equal to the C3, and I can't get behind that.



Ray is capable of hurting a C3 more and taking them down faster, so why this is not an advantage over Marco? If Marco?s kick was as strong or slightly below Garp?s level of strength and have similar haki level, then he?ll be comparable to Ray. Ray effortlessly and casually interacts with Kizaru?s body multiple times and everything is suggesting that Ray have superior offensive Haki compare to Marco or the C3 for that matter. 
The C3, as strong logia AoE users combine with strong CoA vs. one of the best haki users in this series vs. a strong brawler with lower level of haki. Everything is indicating that Ray have stronger offensive overall compare to Marco and debatable with the C3.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Well what do you expect? Obviously Kizaru can't just get rid of Rayleigh ASAP. He isn't an opponent the Admiral can just finish off quickly.



Of course the battle between two monsters that?s on the same level will take longer. This point is about demonstrating that both is doing the best they could in that situation and just because Kizaru have better versatility in his fighting style, it wouldn?t make a difference should he choose to fight with laser as oppose to fighting with a sword. 



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Yes, it is taken out of proportion, at times. However, what your about to do here, is absolutely downplaying its significance. Oda doesn't simply include hints to take up panel spaces.



No, the panting?s being taken out of proportion all the time and has nothing else to back. What I about to do is exactly what I have being doing, that is disproving that with manga facts. That panel when viewing by itself could be considered as hints, but when looking at his stamina outside of the panel, it appears to be no more different from Kizara panting or saying ?phew? (depending on the translation you reading). Firstly, Ray and Kizaru fought for a longer period of time after that panting panel, so why didn?t he pant again or show Kizaru to have any signs of having the advantage after that? Then Oda also put forward a scenario to tell the viewers that Ray have monstrous stamina, in fact the second strongest stamina feat in this entire series so far even at old age. Yet people continues to drill on that 1 panting panel for years, despite it being disproven already.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> You forgot to add the part where he managed to draw blood from his face because Kizaru was trying to get to the SHs. He gained no edge. And while Ray was smiling, Kizaru was putting on his troll face as usual.



I never had forgotten that. But that cannot down play Ray?s feat in any way or form. The duo was facing each other head on and Kizaru underestimated Ray by believing that he can teleport away, fail and almost lost his head. It?s not like Ray was slashing him from behind while Kizaru was busy with SHs or anything?

Case being point, that feet further illustrates the monstrous level of Haki Ray have by continuing to effortlessly by pasting an Admirals logia intangibility and haki defense with his own Haki.


			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> It's great stamina, sure. But how can you quantify this in comparison to the Admirals?


Why does it need to be quantified? Akainu & Aokiji have the best stamina feet in the entire series and Ray has the best second stamina feat. To say Ray have stamina issues and say Kizaru, Shanks, Mihawk or whoever else who doesn?t have proven stamina feet is unfair and claiming it to be true is inconsistent with what Oda have being telling us through his manga.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> All I'll say on the matter is this: endurance will indeed play a role in fighting against the Admirals whom can last up to 10 days fighting against each other, and this is especially important if your abilities may not be as dangerous or destructive.
> 
> Rayleigh panted in a duel with Kizaru, while the latter did not. This doesn't automatically translate to Kizaru>Rayleigh, but it isn't a meaningless factor to be dismissed either.


Firstly, why and where did you come up with the notion that Ray now has lower endurance? Secondly, how are you justifying Ray?s swordsmanship is not as ?dangerous or destructive?? Did you not remember what Mihawk did to that giant ice Tsunami while being casual? 

Ray panted once, never panted again, never shown any signs of losing or being at a disadvantage the entire battle. Sure it?s not meaningless, but to give it meaning you?ll need to have more evidences to support that meaning outside of that panel. I have given evidences outside of the panel to disapprove it already, many times, so if you want to continue to drill on that, then you?ll need to find some evidences outside of that to justify your claim.




			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Same breath=/=equals


You know very well I don?t mean that. And to be honest, if I get maybe $100 for every time I see this when someone try to disapproved Marco?s portrayal, I?ll probably have enough money to take my family on a trip around the world now.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Doflamingo said:
			
		

> It's not inconsistent. Not one bit, if as I have said countless times, if you remember that Garp called him a legend alongside Whitebeard, a call back to the fact that Rayleigh was one of the most prominent figures of Roger/Whitebeard's Era.
> Old Ray is not suddenly as strong as the WSM just because of this statement.


Yes & No. WB was a legend and still is, same with Ray. WB being hype in his prime and depreciate in power due to old age and sickness is still no doubt the undisputed WSM and Old Ray being given the same respect as the man who fought so resiliently at marine ford despite the crap WB was put though cannot simply be brush off like that.

Point being, WB have depreciated and still is the monster he is. Ray started the journey with Roger during his younger age, stood by through thick and thin and got stronger throughout his Journey with Roger. Which duo does this sound like? Yes Luffy and Zoro, The Gap between Prime Ray and Roger would be similar to Luffy and Zoro, which means that Ray in his prime should not be far from WB and for you to put Old Ray significantly lower than a WB that was older, sicker and heavily handicapped would be conflicting to what the author have being providing us. You can argue that Ray was drinking and careless for 2 decades, but I can also counter that with WB having pirate aids.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> Once again, this might not be a literal comparison, unless you really think that Shanks is equal to Old Ray.
> IMO, it speaks and may compare, exclusively to their prowess in CoTC, and their prowess in CoTC, may not reflect their difference in power.
> 
> For example, I do not think that Shanks is merely twice as strong as Luffy, who can knock out 50,000 fishman. Then again, I know that Corus may provide something more convincing as far as how much "twice as much" actually means.


No one is talking about literal comparison here. You know very well that?s not the case. It is more than just the comparison to the CoTC, but similar to the WB portrayal giving Ray the respect and honor in the same speech and portraying him to be on par with these guys. 

Portrayal alone is of course a very vague metrics to power scale someone, but that?s when feats come in and Ray?s feats are in line with his portrayal, therefore he is in fact that strong. 

As far as power scaling based on Luffy?s power is irrelevant to this discussion, so I?ll pass on this one.



			
				Doflamingo said:
			
		

> It's about reaching for the more likely possibility here, and IMO Kizaru being stronger than Rayleigh is the most likely scenario.


And I have provided more in my response above already. Based on what I?ve provided, it?s only fitting and fair to put Ray to be even to Kizaru.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Lmao said:


> Plausible? Yes. Fair? Depends. How fair do you think it is  to have two combatants (one with aerial advantage and one without) fight  in a location where the 'arena' will 99.9% be destroyed by the level of  the attacks and falling to the sea = insta loss?



Dofla vs. Sanji seems fair to me. C3 obviously have genpo and not to mentioned Aokiji can free the ocean, Akainu can use magma to create land and Kizaru can teleport & levitate.

The point of fighting on ocean being, despite it still be a fair scenario, all 4 are devilfruit users and each hit landed could be devastating and could end the battle a lot earlier than say fight on land, therefore Marco wouldn't lose 10/10 in these type of scenario.



oOLawlietOo said:


> This already happened to aokiji and he survived perfectly.



You're missing the point. See my response above.




Slenderman said:


> There needs to be topics other than the ones we did that are good. Perhaps we need to give it some time.





♦Young Master♦ said:


> Nah, no one would sign up. It lost it's juice, most people don't have the energy for drawn out tl;dr debates.
> 
> I wish people had more interest. Twas pretty fun.



I agree with YM that it's less about topic, but more about people. These days, we only have a hand full of people debating endlessly on a topic in this section.

We should definitely give it a shot again soon though...


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 30, 2014)

> Yes & No. WB was a legend and still is, same with Ray. WB being hype in his prime and depreciate in power due to old age and sickness is still no doubt the undisputed WSM and Old Ray being given the same respect as the man who fought so resiliently at marine ford despite the crap WB was put though cannot simply be brush off like that.
> 
> Point being, WB have depreciated and still is the monster he is. Ray started the journey with Roger during his younger age, stood by through thick and thin and got stronger throughout his Journey with Roger. Which duo does this sound like? Yes Luffy and Zoro, The Gap between Prime Ray and Roger would be similar to Luffy and Zoro, which means that Ray in his prime should not be far from WB and for you to put Old Ray significantly lower than a WB that was older, sicker and heavily handicapped would be conflicting to what the author have being providing us. You can argue that Ray was drinking and careless for 2 decades, but I can also counter that with WB having pirate aids.



And your taking this statement way too literally. Garp was giving him the same respect, but as I have already said, a large part of it has to do with the fact that along with himself, Shiki, Roger, and Sengoku, Rayleigh & Whitebeard were both historical greats whom reigned the seas in the same era and generation. They were legends from the same era, and yes, individual strength has a lot to do with it. Yet, it still doesn't mean that he was on the same level as Whitebeard. 

It doesn't make Rayleigh equal to Whitebeard. 

No, it is not inconsistent or conflicting to say that Rayleigh is weaker than the WSM. Yet I'm not saying that he can't "fight on par" with him. It's just that your technical application of the term, "inconsistent", is extremely flawed and misused here. 

Rayleigh was the Right Hand to Roger, while Whitebeard was the latter's equal. One can just as easily argue that Roger & Whitebeard were a step ahead. 

As for the Luffy/Zoro parallel, of course, I do see them as generational counterparts. However, to truly relate them in terms of power difference, the gap between Luffy & Zoro will have to stay the same until they become as strong as Roger & Rayleigh, respectively, for us to truly compare. That the gap between Luffy & Zoro may stay the same from now till then, still might not be the case(as Luffy *may* widen the gap), furthermore strengthening the view that P. Ray was truly more akin to a Right Hand, or 2nd, instead of being the nigh equal first mate. if Luffy & Zoro's difference in strength remains minuscule until the epilogue or when they become the Pirate King, and the Pirate King's Right Hand, respectively, then we can confidently assert this. 




> No one is talking about literal comparison here. You know very well that’s not the case. It is more than just the comparison to the CoTC, but similar to the WB portrayal giving Ray the respect and honor in the same speech and portraying him to be on par with these guys.



Not necessarily at all. On the SBS in question, Oda was answering a question in direct relation to CoTC. Seeing how other than Luffy, at that point, only Shanks & Rayleigh were bonafide CoTC users whom utilised that form of haki on panel in more detail(in fact, it's something they seem to be especially efficient at, compared to most other chars), and seeing how Rayleigh most likely coached/taught Shanks on Roger's ship as well, it doesn't surprise me to see them both highlighted as CoTC users. It doesn't necessarily indicate an equality of strength. 

Rayleigh was spoken of in the same breath as WB, but it doesn't mean that he's capable of what the latter was.

Rayleigh was highlighted alongside Shanks as an extremely proficient CoTC user, but it doesn't mean that he is equal to Shanks(In fact, even as far as CoTC goes, I personally think that Shanks' CoTC is probably better, as he's also revealed a physical component to it, but that's for another time). 

Rayleigh can be Admiral level, allowing him to fight on even terms against these guys, but it doesn't mean that he's as strong as them. 

You view the man as dead equal to Kizaru, and I do not. Yet there is nothing inconsistent about that at all. You are just so confident that your views on the matter are concrete facts which Oda himself has validated, to the point where when a different argument is presented, it is somehow considered "inconsistent" and conflicting to the author's intent, when that is not the case at all. 



> Portrayal alone is of course a very vague metrics to power scale someone, but that’s when feats come in and Ray’s feats are in line with his portrayal, therefore he is in fact that strong.



I never denied the fact that he is strong, or Admiral level.  
His strength is almost indisputable.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

Yo, Dofla, see post 220 on the last page.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 30, 2014)

> The point being there are two sides to the argument and no one side can truly prove another to believe wrong beyond reasonable doubt.



I've been saying this since the very first post to Starkiller 



> Actually, it is the same context for the point of this topic. That is comparing Ray and Marco's stamina. They both panted and Marco actually looked worst, but at the end of their battles, they both look completely fine. Some people may say Ray and Marco have stamina issues and others could stay they don't but no matter where you stand in this matter, Ray still looks better during, before or after their battles.



Except Rayleigh fought for a short while, and Marco went through an entire war, battling mental fatigue, loss, etc. so obviously Marco would look worst, when he's been through more 

There is the obvious emphasis of Rayleigh being an old man, who is now past his prime too, of course

Before you suddenly go full throttle with this, I'm not saying that he's somehow not strong or anything, just because he got old 




> Actually they are statements said by Oda through the words of Garp and the Goresie, whom both are authority and highly regard figures in the manga. Those two events are essentially exactly the same thing when it comes to portraying a characters threat and abilities, so I don't know why you would even consider that as forcefully comparison.



because the contexts are tremendously different, and I've already explained why; the main reason why Marco was mentioned alongside those guys, was because like them, he was one of the few leading Yonko sized crews with the potential to stop Teach's advance into NW territory, before becoming a Yonko himself. 

And before you dismiss it as something I'm "playing", it is legitimate. 



> And that simply give more credit to Ray over guys like Marco, is it not?



Well if a fight between Marco & Kizaru would tax and injure Kizaru before a war where he should be in good shape to prepare, then I don't see why Kizaru would want to drag out a 1 on 1 with Marco in the same situation before the war, either. 




> Now you're just playing the crew argument to try and make this portrayal as different as possible to disprove the comparison. A lot can be extracted from what the Gorosei said, and what you said is somewhat true, but it doesn't change the fact that Marco was indirectly crown by them as the leader of that group and was individually recognized by name, therefore giving him incredible portrayal.



I'm not "playing" at anything, because I don't need to, since you are the only one who has ever attempted to enforce such a comparison, and I will address this below the next quote. 



> Of course it were not made or written to compare these two, and Oda certainly isn't that type of person to do so, but when we're in civil conversation to discuss this topic, is about finding plausible evidences to make the comparison. I am comparing apples with apples (portrayal), so I don't see what the problem is.



I disagree actually. In fact, I think you are indeed comparing apples to oranges, since Marco & the Yonko are the only ones, in terms of circumstance, that can curb Teach's rise to power, in that situation. Crews have a big part to do with it, since the Gorosei already said that *Teach was the frontrunner for replacing WB as Yonko, and that the only ones who may be able to stop his rise to such a position, are the other Yonko crews & the remnants.* So yes, crews are a huge reason, and just because you attempt to dismiss it as some card I'm playing, it doesn't make it any less valid, when that is what the purpose of the writing in that chapter, was trying to convey in the story.

If they were specifically talking about stopping Teach, or simply making linear comparisons, guys like the Admirals, Mihawk, and Garp, would have landed in the conversation. Instead, they spoke about Teach's potential ascension as a Yonko captain due to his knowledge of WB's territories, and made mentions to the Yonko & Marco, whom lead Yonko sized crews, and also have territories on their own. 




> Marco's portrayal in the same breath as Shanks, Big Mom and Kaido, while Old Ray's portrayal in the same breath as Old WB. It's quite obvious who's got better portrayal overall.



This "in the same breath" business is not to be disregarded as I've said many times before, but it's supposed to be taken so plainly. There are obvious intricacies exclusive to each statement. By that logic, the Yonko are spoken of in the same breath as Whitebeard himself(Law), and even though Whitebeard has the WSM title, taking these statements so literally gets us nowhere. 




> The word "exceptional" is fairly in line with "superior", so why are you blaming me for interpreting your post that way? Ray doesn't need to be exceptional to be stronger; he just needs to be slightly stronger as the gaps between top tiers are generally marginal.




If we're arguing marginal differences here, then it really doesn't matter 
Just know that in my mind, Rayleigh~Marco, and it could go either way; if Ray wins, I think it'll be very, very close, but the idea that Rayleigh is much stronger than Marco, is what I disagree with, bro 




> Ray is capable of hurting a C3 more



Slightly nicking Kizaru's face....



> and taking them down faster,



where is the basis for this claim, other than guesses?



> so why this is not an advantage over Marco? If Marco?s kick was as strong or slightly below Garp?s level of strength and have similar haki level, then he?ll be comparable to Ray.



except Garp's level of strength and CoA, may be clearly superior to Rayleigh's. Nothing in the story goes against this either.


----------



## Mihawk (Mar 30, 2014)

> Ray effortlessly and casually interacts with Kizaru?s body multiple times



Marco has done the same thing



> and everything is suggesting that Ray have superior offensive Haki compare to Marco or the C3 for that matter.
> The C3, as strong logia AoE users combine with strong CoA vs. one of the best haki users in this series vs. a strong brawler with lower level of haki. *Everything is indicating that Ray have stronger offensive overall* compare to Marco and debatable with the C3.



Even if Ray has the superior offense, Marco's superior defense possibly evens it out

I mean if Marco's offense was equal to or superior to Rayleigh's, in conjunction to his defensive capabilities, then it wouldn't be very balanced





> Of course the battle between two monsters that?s on the same level will take longer. This point is about demonstrating that both is doing the best they could in that situation and just because Kizaru have better versatility in his fighting style, it wouldn?t make a difference should he choose to fight with laser as oppose to fighting with a sword.



Nah, it's groundless to suggest that it doesn't make any difference at all 

But the rest of this quote, I have nothing to really disagree with



> No, the panting?s being taken out of proportion all the time and has nothing else to back. What I about to do is exactly what I have being doing, that is disproving that with manga facts. That panel when viewing by itself could be considered as hints, but when looking at his stamina outside of the panel, it appears to be no more different from Kizara panting or saying ?phew? (depending on
> the translation you reading).



Some people may blow it out of proportion, but it still doesn't mean that it is meaningless, or insignificant. You on the other hand, are going on the opposite end of the spectrum, in your attempt to downplay it to the point where it would mean absolutely nothing, which is untrue to say the least.

So you are going to disprove it with manga facts, only to assert your own assumption and interpretation of the scene, based on what "it appears to be"? 



> Firstly, Ray and Kizaru fought for a longer period of time after that panting panel, so why didn?t he pant again or show Kizaru to have any signs of having the advantage after that?



Because their fight wasn't even that long, and if Rayleigh was to keep panting and panting against a fresh Kizaru, it would look to one-sided, when they are supposed to be fairly close




> Then Oda also put forward a scenario to tell the viewers that Ray have monstrous stamina, in fact the second strongest stamina feat in this entire series so far even at old age. Yet people continues to drill on that 1 panting panel for years, despite it being disproven already.



First of all, I don't know if swimming through the calm belt is a more monstrous stamina feat than Ace VS Jinbei, but w/e

Secondly, it was blatant that the man would be capable of something like that. He's a top tier, and it's an impressive feat. 

Thirdly, I do not think that Oda wrote that scene to suddenly "disprove" his panting in the fight against Kizaru. 

Theoretically, it would simply mean that swimming through the calm belt and slaying a couple of Sea Kings, would be less taxing than fighting a Marine Admiral, Kizaru. 



> I never had forgotten that. But that cannot down play Ray?s feat in any way or form. The duo was facing each other head on and Kizaru underestimated Ray by believing that he can teleport away, fail and almost lost his head. It?s not like Ray was slashing him from behind while Kizaru was busy with SHs or anything?



Your use of the term, downplay, is uncalled for here. It doesn't mean that the slash was an absolutely legitimate attack, since Kizaru diverted his attention. It wouldn't have happened if the SHs were not there. 

This is total fanfiction. How can a scratch/nick on his face, suddenly translate to almost losing his head? Now that, is blowing things out of proportion. 



> Case being point, that feet further illustrates the monstrous level of Haki Ray have by continuing to effortlessly by pasting an Admirals logia intangibility and haki defense with his own Haki.



Pretty sure that no one was doubting that Rayleigh would be able to bypass their intangibility. 



> Why does it need to be quantified? Akainu & Aokiji have the best stamina feet in the entire series and Ray has the best second stamina feat.



Because swimming through the Calm Belt is different than fighting an Admiral for 10 days, and fighting a serious Kizaru should be more difficult for a top tier than swimming through the Calm Belt



> To say Ray have stamina issues and say Kizaru, Shanks, Mihawk or whoever else who doesn?t have proven stamina feet is unfair and claiming it to be true is inconsistent with what Oda have being telling us through his manga.



Once again, your use of the word "inconsistent" is just inappropriate 

There is nothing inconsistent, if any of those guys turn out to be even more monstrous, in the stamina department, than Rayleigh. 

For one, Kizaru is equal to his colleagues, whom are able to fight a 10 day battle, altering the landscape, climate, and geography of an island. 

Shanks & Mihawk are most likely stronger than an Old Rayleigh, so nothing inconsistent with them potentially beating him in the stamina department too, especially since they are not past their prime.




> Firstly, why and where did you come up with the notion that Ray now has lower endurance?



I think there are pretty strong "indicators" which point towards the Admirals being superior to him in that department. The minor panting is just one reason(not blowing it out of proportion), and then the fact that I doubt Rayleigh being able to replicate Akainu/Aokiji's 10 day feat of stamina. 

These aren't facts, but the most likely case in my mind. 



> Secondly, how are you justifying Ray?s swordsmanship is not as ?dangerous or destructive?? *Did you not remember what Mihawk did to that giant ice Tsunami while being casual?*



Is Rayleigh, Mihawk? I don't think so. 

Rayleigh hasn't shown the level of destructive cutting power which Mihawk has, and while I have no doubt that he may have mountain level + destructive capacity, it doesn't mean that he would be able to pull it off as casually, or with as much nonchalant half-heartedness as Mihawk did. 




> Ray panted once, never panted again, never shown any signs of losing or being at a disadvantage the entire battle. Sure it?s not meaningless, but to give it meaning you?ll need to have more evidences to support that meaning outside of that panel. I have given evidences outside of the panel to disapprove it already, many times, so if you want to continue to drill on that, then you?ll need to find some evidences outside of that to justify your claim.



You haven't provided any evidence at all, nor have you disproven anything, unless we are now obligated to accept that personal interpretations and self-rationalisations equates to factual evidence, nowadays; and I don't think we're there yet friend.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 30, 2014)

I can't help but literally laughing hysterically on the inside, Dofla/Luke. Not laughing at your posts (I haven't read them yet), but laughing at how long mine and your responses are. You're up-to a trio of walls of text already and my responses later will most likely be longer in order to keep up. What a waste of time and effort that this thread will be pushed to the next page in the next week or so and with limited audience in the mean time. We definitely need to bring the Formal debate back so the time and effort we put into these posts are actually worth a nickle.

Fairly busy at work today & tomorrow. So I will read and reply went I can. Got to give the audience time to keep up with these crazy TL;DR as well.

Cheers,



Stαrkiller said:


> Hmm. Seems I've been tossed aside. I was a bit interested in your response too. Nevermind then.



Let's face it, bro, he's tossed you aside. No amount of excuses are enough cover for this neglect! Sorry man. j/k


----------



## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> I've been saying this since the very first post to Starkiller


By saying that, I mean beyond reasonable doubt.  If we can do that, we obviously do not need to be here to debate. And the reason why we?re here is because I believe my case is more plausible and vise versa, so let?s keep talking.



Doflαmingo said:


> Except Rayleigh fought for a short while, and Marco went through an entire war, battling mental fatigue, loss, etc. so obviously Marco would look worst, when he's been through more
> 
> There is the obvious emphasis of Rayleigh being an old man, who is now past his prime too, of course


That?s not true. Ray fought an sort out fight with Kizaru, all the way starting from him trying to take out Zoro to Pacifista and Sentomaru fight the SHs to when Kuma systematically taking out the SHs 1 by 1. When counting the amount of attacks that the SHs dodged, tanked and delivered the fight between Ray & Kizaru an extensive battle.

Yes, Marco fought longer and I agree with what you said, but facts remains if the author actually let us knows bluntly that Marco have that limitation, there?s absolutely nothing to imply that Ray or Kizaru could be in the same situation therefore we could give these two more of a benefit of the doubt.

Isn?t it because Marco was in that situation, that?s why people like you and I are putting Marco slightly below Kizaru? Should Marco remained cuff for the entire war and not fight Akainu, then I?m sure a lot more people would speculate that Marco is dead even to Kizaru.
Ray is an old man, yes. Past his prime, yes. Had depreciated, yes, But how strong was he during his prime and how much have he depreciated? Nothing has suggested so far that his depreciation puts him below Kizaru, especially when he fought evenly in a drawn out battle from beginning to end.



Doflαmingo said:


> Before you suddenly go full throttle with this, I'm not saying that he's somehow not strong or anything, just because he got old



You?re essentially saying he?s dead even to Marco and under the C3. For people like StarKiller and Lawlet who sayings he?s just slightly below Kizaru and above Marco, then I can understand why and agree to disagree, but really can?t accept where you scale him. Please understand, this topic is a little sensitive, just as Sakazuki (member) can never accept anyone down playing the WB commanders.



Doflαmingo said:


> because the contexts are tremendously different, and I've already explained why; the main reason why Marco was mentioned alongside those guys, was because like them, he was one of the few leading Yonko sized crews with the potential to stop Teach's advance into NW territory, before becoming a Yonko himself.
> 
> And before you dismiss it as something I'm "playing", it is legitimate.


And I have already agreed that?s true, but my interpretation and comparison of portrayal is also true. There are lots of things to take from these types of hype and portrayal. 

If you can?t compare portrayal with portrayal, feats with feats, and hype with hype, then what do you compare to power scale someone? Get everyone to go to an island and have people fight each other 1 by 1 until we reach and conclusion?

Whether Ray is stronger, even or weaker than Old WB, it is irrelevant here. What matters is this portrayal along with the Shanks?s example shows that he is capable of that level of combat abilities and the gap between him and old WB should be fairly close. Just as the gap between Marco and Kaido, Big Mom and Shanks are fairly close, it?s just that Ray have slightly between portrayal in this regard.



Doflαmingo said:


> I'm not "playing" at anything, because I don't need to, since you are the only one who has ever attempted to enforce such a comparison, and I will address this below the next quote.


You were challenging for proof so I gave it to you, that?s all.



Doflαmingo said:


> I disagree actually. In fact, I think you are indeed comparing apples to oranges, since Marco & the Yonko are the only ones, in terms of circumstance, that can curb Teach's rise to power, in that situation. Crews have a big part to do with it, since the Gorosei already said that Teach was the frontrunner for replacing WB as Yonko, and that the only ones who may be able to stop his rise to such a position, are the other Yonko crews & the remnants. So yes, crews are a huge reason, and just because you attempt to dismiss it as some card I'm playing, it doesn't make it any less valid, when that is what the purpose of the writing in that chapter, was trying to convey in the story.
> If they were specifically talking about stopping Teach, or simply making linear comparisons, guys like the Admirals, Mihawk, and Garp, would have landed in the conversation. Instead, they spoke about Teach's potential ascension as a Yonko captain due to his knowledge of WB's territories, and made mentions to the Yonko & Marco, whom lead Yonko sized crews, and also have territories on their own.


Mihawk could probably systematically take them out should he wish to do it. Dragon too. I never disagreed with what you bolded, just that what you?re stating are facts (or plausible interpretation), while what I?ve being providing is portrayal. We are discussing two different things within the same events here. These facts you?ve being providing is completely irrelevant to our portrayal discuss here what so ever. 

It?s like another thread were by you using the Admiral?s title as the WG?s strongest military force in comparison to the Yonko title to respond to my post. There are lots of differences we can draw from those two portrayals, but it doesn?t change the fact that those are portrayal of power, which we can use for power scaling these characters. And it is exactly the same thing as Ray & Marco?s portrayal.


Doflαmingo said:


> This "in the same breath" business is not to be disregarded as I've said many times before, but it's supposed to be taken so plainly. There are obvious intricacies exclusive to each statement. By that logic, the Yonko are spoken of in the same breath as Whitebeard himself(Law), and even though Whitebeard has the WSM title, taking these statements so literally gets us nowhere.


I?m right here with you man, that?s why in my earlier post, I said something in the line of portrayal alone is not enough to scale someone?s power, but just one of the many metrics and of course feats is very important also, that?s why I have being addressing all factors holistically from the very beginning.



Doflαmingo said:


> If we're arguing marginal differences here, then it really doesn't matter
> Just know that in my mind, Rayleigh~Marco, and it could go either way; if Ray wins, I think it'll be very, very close, but the idea that Rayleigh is much stronger than Marco, is what I disagree with, bro


?Marginal differences? in your opinion might be different to mine. If I have to quantify the power level, then it would be something in the line of below.

?	Akainu ? 4001, Aokiji ? 4,000, Kizaru ? 3,999, Old Rayleigh - 3,998, Marco ? 3,800
So Ray would be a lot closer to the Admiral and pretty much dead even to Kizaru and stronger than Marco, but I would still consider Marco?s power level to be marginal to Akainu.



Doflαmingo said:


> Slightly nicking Kizaru's face....


That?s not the point. He was shown to be capable of interacting with Kizaru?s real body the entire battle and force Kizaru to use his sword to defend instead of kicking. Marco had difficulties during the war. Ray didn?t.



Doflαmingo said:


> where is the basis for this claim, other than guesses?


Monstrous haki infused swordsmanship are more lethal that a good level of haki infused brawler. Zoro have shown countless times he can take down his opponents on his level with 1-shot should he find the right opening despite the level of difficulties.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> except Garp's level of strength and CoA, may be clearly superior to Rayleigh's. Nothing in the story goes against this either.


That?s debatable, mate. Garp, Ray and Shanks have being portrayed to have the strongest level of Haki in this series. But the point isn?t about debating whether Garp have better haki that Ray or vise versa, the point is that they 2 both have superior Haki to Marco or the C3 for that matter and that a brawler in Garp definitely have enough offensive capabilities to be put a lot close to the C3 Admirals/dead equal, etc. Marco also a brawler can get there, he just need to get stronger Haki, which he showed that he was lacking at MF.



Doflαmingo said:


> Marco has done the same thing


He did it once on panel and once to Aokiji and then had some shortcomings with Akainu. The point is, Ray never shown any of these shortcomings, therefore his portrayal of haki mastery is better overall.



Doflαmingo said:


> Even if Ray has the superior offense, Marco's superior defense possibly evens it out
> 
> I mean if Marco's offense was equal to or superior to Rayleigh's, in conjunction to his defensive capabilities, then it wouldn't be very balanced


I knew you were going to bring this up sooner or later. Marco has the best defensive abilities in this manga. I am not questioning this. However, did you remember what happen to Marco when he took a fist of love? Garp?s fist interacted with Marco?s body. So every slash or stab that Ray landed will hurt. Marco wouldn?t be able to defend the way he did against Kizaru when fight a haki monsters like Ray or Garp.

Did you also forget we agreed that Marco while on the same level despite having superior defence are still below the C3 and can only push the C3 to high ? very difficulties only?



Doflαmingo said:


> Nah, it's groundless to suggest that it doesn't make any difference at all


Why is it ?groundless ?? Like I said above, they fought an extensive battle. If Kizaru can do better by being more versatile, why didn?t he be more versatile? And it wasn?t a coincident that Oda put in scenes where by Ray can effortlessly counter Kizaru?s light speed kick and teleportation?



Doflαmingo said:


> Some people may blow it out of proportion, but it still doesn't mean that it is meaningless, or insignificant. You on the other hand, are going on the opposite end of the spectrum, in your attempt to downplay it to the point where it would mean absolutely nothing, which is untrue to say the least.
> 
> So you are going to disprove it with manga facts, only to assert your own assumption and interpretation of the scene, based on what "it appears to be"?


Assumption? No manga facts? Let?s chat further in the next quote.



Doflαmingo said:


> Because their fight wasn't even that long, and if Rayleigh was to keep panting and panting against a fresh Kizaru, it would look to one-sided, when they are supposed to be fairly close


No, it was a drawn out fight. Do you want me to count and state exactly what happen and how many attacks the SHs landed, dodged and tanked with Sentomaru, The Pacifista and Kuma? It?s not just no panting see later, but dead even throughout and at the very end also.



Doflαmingo said:


> First of all, I don't know if swimming through the calm belt is a more monstrous stamina feat than Ace VS Jinbei, but w/e
> 
> Secondly, it was blatant that the man would be capable of something like that. He's a top tier, and it's an impressive feat.
> 
> ...


First of all, Jimbe and Ace at that time is not stronger than countless sea kings. Momonga had trouble with 1 sea-king and had to slice it from the inside out. Ace was at the start of his NW journey and was a complete fodder to WB even while WB sleeps. Those two are a lot weaker than than they are at MF.
Secondly, that he did not pant or was tired when he landed on Amazon Liffy. That stamina feat is obviously more tiring than fighting Kizaru for a few mins in the beginning of their battle before he pant, therefore him panting in the beginning and if that?s was interpreted as being tire is contradictory to the Manga that we all know and loved.

Thirdly, to disapprove his pant, if we review Kizaru and Ray?s battle from beginning to end and speculate how many times they could have attack and defended, it would be more than enough. That feat is just to solidify that he doesn?t have stamina issues. I mean, where does this stamina issues from old top tiers come from anyway? Did WB have stamina issues? Did Garp have stamina issues? Heck, Kizaru is in his 60s now and 58 then. Did he have stamina issues?
Theoretically, it would mean that swimming through the calm belt and slaying many Sea Kings, would be more taxing than fighting a Marine Admiral, Kizaru for a few mins, therefore the panting at the beginning of the battle is inconsistent with everything else that?s being shown to us.



Doflαmingo said:


> Your use of the term, downplay, is uncalled for here. It doesn't mean that the slash was an absolutely legitimate attack, since Kizaru diverted his attention. It wouldn't have happened if the SHs were not there.
> 
> This is total fanfiction. How can a scratch/nick on his face, suddenly translate to almost losing his head? Now that, is blowing things out of proportion.



I have being trying my best not to use that work, but it seems to get more and more difficult?

Why wouldn?t it happen? Kizaru tried to get away from Ray to go after SHs. If the SH wasn?t there and Kizaru tried to teleport away to use Yata no Kagami, then it would be more plausible to say that Kizaru would be in the same situation.

Why not? Zoro almost got fatal slashes countless times when fighting Ryuma, did he not? Just because an attack is a near missed, it doesn?t reduces the danger of that attack.



Doflαmingo said:


> Pretty sure that no one was doubting that Rayleigh would be able to bypass their intangibility.


And Marco had trouble at times, no?





Doflαmingo said:


> Because swimming through the Calm Belt is different than fighting an Admiral for 10 days, and fighting a serious Kizaru should be more difficult for a top tier than swimming through the Calm Belt


You?re avoiding what?s being address here. You?re asking me to quantify it and you?re trying to quantify these two feats, when it?s not needed.



Doflαmingo said:


> Once again, your use of the word "inconsistent" is just inappropriate
> 
> There is nothing inconsistent, if any of those guys turn out to be even more monstrous, in the stamina department, than Rayleigh.
> 
> ...


I am not saying that if these guys have better stamina it?s ?inconsistent?, but for you to say Ray have stamina issues despite having the second best stamina feat, while giving the other top tiers the benefit of the doubt is ?inconsistent?. Maybe it?s not the correct word to use. How about ?contradictory??



Doflαmingo said:


> I think there are pretty strong "indicators" which point towards the Admirals being superior to him in that department. The minor panting is just one reason(not blowing it out of proportion), and then the fact that I doubt Rayleigh being able to replicate Akainu/Aokiji's 10 day feat of stamina.
> 
> These aren't facts, but the most likely case in my mind.


Stamina and endurance is not the same. You?re speaking about Stamina here. And so far, we had nothing to measure Ray?s endurance on. 



Doflαmingo said:


> Is Rayleigh, Mihawk? I don't think so.
> 
> Rayleigh hasn't shown the level of destructive cutting power which Mihawk has, and while I have no doubt that he may have mountain level + destructive capacity, it doesn't mean that he would be able to pull it off as casually, or with as much nonchalant half-heartedness as Mihawk did.



You said ?while I have no doubt?, so you agree that he does have ?dangerous or destructive? capabilities. So there?s nothing else to discuss in this point. Whether he can do it casually or not is irrelevant.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> You haven't provided any evidence at all, nor have you disproven anything, unless we are now obligated to accept that personal interpretations and self-rationalisations equates to factual evidence, nowadays; and I don't think we're there yet friend.


?Personal interpretations and self-rationalisations?. Let?s break it down:
?	Ray panted once ? fact
?	never panted again ? fact
?	never shown any signs of losing or being at a disadvantage the entire battle ? fact

Like I said before if you want to continue to drill on that, then you?ll need to find some evidences outside of that to justify your claim. I did.



Doflαmingo said:


> And your taking this statement way too literally. Garp was giving him the same respect, but as I have already said, a large part of it has to do with the fact that along with himself, Shiki, Roger, and Sengoku, Rayleigh & Whitebeard were both historical greats whom reigned the seas in the same era and generation. They were legends from the same era, and yes, individual strength has a lot to do with it. Yet, it still doesn't mean that he was on the same level as Whitebeard.
> 
> It doesn't make Rayleigh equal to Whitebeard.
> 
> ...


I have said many times. I never remotely implied that Ray = WB with those portrayal. Such a long quote?




Doflαmingo said:


> Rayleigh was the Right Hand to Roger, while Whitebeard was the latter's equal. One can just as easily argue that Roger & Whitebeard were a step ahead.



So do you believe that Fresh Old uninjured WB is a step ahead of Marco? WB seems to be a step ahead of Akainu to me and at least 1.5 steps ahead of Marco. It?s more fitting to put Ray a lot close to the Admiral based on this portrayal.



Doflαmingo said:


> As for the Luffy/Zoro parallel, of course, I do see them as generational counterparts. However, to truly relate them in terms of power difference, the gap between Luffy & Zoro will have to stay the same until they become as strong as Roger & Rayleigh, respectively, for us to truly compare. That the gap between Luffy & Zoro may stay the same from now till then, still might not be the case(as Luffy may widen the gap), furthermore strengthening the view that P. Ray was truly more akin to a Right Hand, or 2nd, instead of being the nigh equal first mate. if Luffy & Zoro's difference in strength remains minuscule until the epilogue or when they become the Pirate King, and the Pirate King's Right Hand, respectively, then we can confidently assert this.


Why do we have to wait till the very end? Have 15 years of story progression and how Oda?s being portraying them all for nothing? With more than 65% of the manga finished, why Oda would suddenly allowed Luffy to be significantly above Zoro (significantly above means the gap between Fresh Old WB vs. Marco). Everything Oda have given us shows that while Luffy may widen the Gap at times, Zoro have always closed the gap later on. Luffy gained gear second, Zoro gained Kyutoryu. Luffy moves ahead with Gear third, Zoro gained Shusui. This is what Oda have showed us for 15 years.

Sure, there?s a possibilities that it might change. He could work too hard and may go senile. Maybe Oda will marry ZoroFanGirl so he will have to make Zoro god of gods tier. Maybe the fandom suddenly thinks Luffy is shit and stop spending money on OP products, so he need to kill Luffy off. Anything could happen, but if it become this inconsistent to what he?s being providing for the last 15 years, while the title of the Manga is still one piece, it is no longer the manga we all know, loved and grew up on?



Doflαmingo said:


> Not necessarily at all. On the SBS in question, Oda was answering a question in direct relation to CoTC. Seeing how other than Luffy, at that point, only Shanks & Rayleigh were bonafide CoTC users whom utilised that form of haki on panel in more detail(in fact, it's something they seem to be especially efficient at, compared to most other chars), and seeing how Rayleigh most likely coached/taught Shanks on Roger's ship as well, it doesn't surprise me to see them both highlighted as CoTC users. It doesn't necessarily indicate an equality of strength.
> 
> Rayleigh was spoken of in the same breath as WB, but it doesn't mean that he's capable of what the latter was.
> 
> ...


Once again, we we?re discussing two different things. I think we?ve both discussed about ?the same breath? portrayal enough in above quotes already, so I?ll leave this to save the both of us some time and will continue this point in above quotes.



Doflαmingo said:


> You view the man as dead equal to Kizaru, and I do not. Yet there is nothing inconsistent about that at all. You are just so confident that your views on the matter are concrete facts which Oda himself has validated, to the point where when a different argument is presented, it is somehow considered "inconsistent" and conflicting to the author's intent, when that is not the case at all.


That?s actually not true. I am okay with people having different opinions. But the main issue here is that you put Ray on a level that an Admiral can beat him 10/10 of the time, which I do not accept. I can accept other views, such as C3 => Ray => Marco, but I can?t get over the fact that you could legitimately believe that he?s closer to Marco than the C3.



Doflαmingo said:


> I never denied the fact that he is strong, or Admiral level.
> His strength is almost indisputable.


We still differ in where we stand on this matter though.


----------



## trance (Mar 31, 2014)

Three separate replies? 

I see what you're doing. You want to relive the "formal debate" and Doffy (Luke) is your gateway to doing that since he's one of the respected posters/debaters here.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Three separate replies?
> 
> I see what you're doing. You want to relive the "formal debate" and Doffy (Luke) is your gateway to doing that since he's one of the respected posters/debaters here.



na man, it's just character limit availability per post. There's no way to fit those in one or two posts here. If Luke chooses to reply, I have no doubt it will be 3 - 4 post also.

Just a little sensitve with anyone putting ray closer to Marco than C3, even if it's just marginal. That's all. Got nothing to do with the formal debate. If it's anything else, I probably won't care as much given I should be crazy busy and don't have time at work today.


----------



## trance (Mar 31, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> na man, it's just character limit availability per post. There's no way to fit those in one or two posts here. If Luke chooses to reply, I have no doubt it will be 3 - 4 post also.
> 
> Just a little sensitve with anyone putting ray closer to Marco than C3, even if it's just marginal. That's all. Got nothing to do with the formal debate. If it's anything else, I probably won't care as much given I should be crazy busy and don't have time at work today.



Ray is stronger than Marco. Marco just wins more times than not due to being a bad matchup.


----------



## Shanks (Mar 31, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Ray is stronger than Marco. Marco just wins more times than not due to being a bad matchup.



Don't push it. Wanna spend 10 hrs a day here with me and fail college? Lol.


----------



## trance (Mar 31, 2014)

Admiral Aokiji said:


> Don't push it. Wanna spend 10 hrs a day here with me and fail college? Lol.



Kay. I truly do think Rayleigh has more potent abilities but his stamina makes him comparable to Marco in overall standing.


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 1, 2014)

will reply weekend


----------



## trance (Apr 1, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> will reply weekend



I'll be completely gone from reality this weekend.


----------



## Shanks (Apr 1, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> will reply weekend



will read should you reply, but I'm done with this thread. I don't want to reach Turrin & Akito level just yet..


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 13, 2014)

haven't forgotten about this


----------



## trance (Apr 13, 2014)

Dat 12 day necro and zero fucks were given while doing so.


----------



## Shanks (Apr 13, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> haven't forgotten about this



Phewww. Thought I would see a Novel. Why don't we settle this in a formal debate?


----------



## Mihawk (Apr 13, 2014)

If we did that, we'd have to start all over again 
Let another subject be the topic of the formal one, I'd say, so there'd be some variety


----------



## Magentabeard (Apr 13, 2014)

Just seeing the title pisses me off

Aokiji gets fucking wrecked


----------



## Shanks (Apr 13, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> If we did that, we'd have to start all over again
> Let another subject be the topic of the formal one, I'd say, so there'd be some variety



Alright, but remember to reply to Starkiller and Corus first. You did promised. Hehe.


----------



## trance (Apr 13, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> Just seeing the title pisses me off



Chill the fuck out.


----------



## Shanks (Apr 13, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> Just seeing the title pisses me off
> 
> Aokiji gets fucking wrecked



Why? See my response below.



Admiral Aokiji said:


> This is how I feel the battle would go. The lower commanders like cruiel were matched up with a mid tier like Moria and those guys, not only are non-factors and but they are more of a distractions to guys like Marco, Jozu and Vista.
> 
> Off the bat, Kuzan will launched a swiftly and devastating ice age, which should cause half of the lower level commanders to be completely frozen and become a major distraction in a sense that Marco, Jozu and Vista cannot truly go all out due to friendly fire and at times have to use their own body to shield and protect the frozen fallen team mate.
> 
> ...


----------



## Onigumo (Apr 13, 2014)

Aokiji gets raped.


----------

