# Kakashi vs Tsunade (Part 1)



## Fragile (Mar 11, 2013)

*Konoha's Top Jonin vs The Legendary Sannin*​
Feats are restricted to Part 1.

*Location:* Land of Waves

*Distance:* 30 meters

*Knowledge:* Manga

*Mindset:*: IC

*Restrictions:* None

Who wins?


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## KakuzuForever (Mar 11, 2013)

Based on what we were shown, Kakashi and Kabuto at that time were in the same tier.

Kabuto only got the significant advantage on Tsunade b/c of key intel (ie, Knowledge).

It's doubtful that kakashi in part 1 has any chance of winning, given that all of what we were given was that the sannin were a full tier above the likes of kabuto and kakashi (even kabuto thinks it in the link above).

Kakashi was a scared cat when he almost had to fight oro.  He put up a good  "bark", which was laughed at by oro, and subsequently his bluff called out (last panel), ending with kakashi's reality check.

Even though tsunade isn't nearly as strong as oro, it doesn't put her below that of kakashi.

Tsunade wins, 10/10, high diff.


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## Mercurial (Mar 11, 2013)

Kakashi is far faster than her and is a more versatile,smart and skilled fighter with a three tomoe Sharingan

he has bad stamina feats with his Sharingan in pt 1,but he can dodge her punches,outsmart with Kage Bunshin creating an opening and then with his speed and Sharingan precognition land Raikiri,destroying her heart or head,there's no medical ninjutsu who can heal her after she is dead


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## katanalauncher (Mar 11, 2013)

Tsunade outclass part 1 Kakashi easily.


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## Totsuka Blitz (Mar 11, 2013)

Part 1 Tsunade would defeat Kakashi. Kakashi was sweating just facing Orochimaru while Tsunade had no such problems. Kakashi also had stamina issues and would not outlast Tsunade in a long fight. The only shot is  to take out her head with Raikiri and that might be not be so simple.


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## Mithos (Mar 12, 2013)

Kakashi has no answer to Katsuyu or Souzou Saisei with his part one feats. Tsunade takes this moderate difficulty at  most.


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## Mercurial (Mar 12, 2013)

yeah,she should eventually hit an opponent faster,more skilled in CQC and generally with best fighting prowess,with Sharingan precognition and deceptive ninjutsu,when she couldn't land a hit on arm-less Orochimaru and pt 1 Kabuto

seems legit


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## Synn (Mar 12, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> more skilled in CQC





Raikiri19 said:


> with best fighting prowess,with Sharingan precognition and deceptive ninjutsu



You're kidding, right? Not biased or anything?

While I agree that Kakashi is more versatile, Tsunade specializes in taijutsu. Truth be told, he doesn't stand a chance against her in CQC.

Tsunade doesn't need Katsuyu to win this, but should it come down to that, what would be Kakashi's answer? Do you really think he can take on a boss summon and a Sannin by himself? 

Kakashi either dies out of chakra or crushed by one of Tsunade's punches.


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## Mithos (Mar 12, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> yeah,she should eventually hit an opponent faster,more skilled in CQC and generally with best fighting prowess,with Sharingan precognition and deceptive ninjutsu,when she couldn't land a hit on arm-less Orochimaru and pt 1 Kabuto
> 
> seems legit



Tsunade landed mulitple hits during her fight:

Tsunade counter-attacks Kabuto immediately after he makes contact with her, before he can move. If it wasn't for her strength being negated - something Kakashi cannot do - the counter-attack would have killed him. [1]

Tsunade uses her insane resilience to surprise attack and land Ranshinshou [2]. 

Tsunade strikes Kabuto in the face [3]. 

Tsunade, despite being heavily wounded and on the ground in an unfavorable position, rises and strikes Orochimaru before he could react, even when he was watching her closely enough to notice her trembling stopped [4]. 

Tsunade strikes Orochimaru directly in the face, knocking even him out momentarily. [5] 

Tsunade has shown to counter-attack immediately after being hit, so when Kakashi comes in close he not only has to evade OHKO strikes from a more skilled taijutsu combatant (Tsunade has a 5 in Taijutsu to Kakashi's 4.5), he has to worry about being hit after he lands a strike of his own. There is also the very real possibility he lands Raikiri, or Tsunade allows herself to be hit, and she grabs him and kills him before activating Souzou Saisei. 

This is all without Katsuyu, who Kakashi has no answer for. He can't evade the acid forever. If he hides underground, Tsunade can expose him similar to what Sakura did. [6] 

Not to mention Tsunade has better stamina and has 2 sets of chakra, while Kakashi only has one set, which in Part I is known to be rather poor. 

There is honestly almost no way for Kakashi to win here.


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## Jad (Mar 12, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade landed mulitple hits during her fight:
> 
> Tsunade counter-attacks Kabuto immediately after he makes contact with her, before he can move. If it wasn't for her strength being negated - something Kakashi cannot do - the counter-attack would have killed him. [1]



Tsunade didn't do anything here, she got hit and Kabuto skidded to the side. Unless you are seeing something I'm not.

Edit: Oh, she nudged him with her shoulder.


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## Suu (Mar 12, 2013)

Jad said:


> Edit: Oh, she nudged him with her shoulder.


She did indeed. 

Even a glancing hit from full-strength Tsunade can cause severe damage. Remember the time she ? Plus, a shoulder strike is a legitimate taijutsu manoeuvre - apparently legitimate enough to warrant being a named technique.


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## Bonly (Mar 12, 2013)

In CQC Kakashi has the advantage thanks to the sharingan and with Kakashi being faster(DM stat=4.5) then Tsunade(DB stat=3.5), he shouldn't have to much problem avoiding her a good amount of her hits as well as both being close in Taijutsu(Tsunade DB=5,Kakashi DB=4.5), this all rounds out to them being close but Kakashi having the upper hand slightly in CQC.

As already stated he would have the upper hand in CQC and with his part one showing, he'll put up a decent fight. with the location being the Land of waves it allows him to do his larger Sution along with water clones, upon which he used to feint Itachi which could be helpful in distracting Tsunade to get a hit in. Kakashi was able to make a shitload of clones after he fought Zabuza and used the sharingan for quite a bit of the time, doing such would allow him to use it as a distraction to attack from behind. Although all this means almost nothing as Kakashi has nothing that will put Tsunade down bar Raikiri to the head or heart or a Kunai in her head prolly.

Raikiri pretty much isn't gonna land a hit on Tsunade as she can counter and mess up the ground such as doing  or  this as well which means he won't be able to safe come in and will get thrown off balance. Orochi's Sword of Kusanagi was said that Emna in his staff form was gonna feel sore, upon which said staff form is said to be made of diamonds via . Said sword pierced(went pretty far through her) Tsunade, slashed Tsunade quite a few times and she was fine to heal herself via Sōzō Saisei. This means that any and all Kunai attacks will be useless unless Kakashi stabs her in the head or slices her throat, upon which both don't seem likely. She can tank his Sutions and if he uses as Doton then she can attack him by using the same method of stopping Kakashi from reaching her with Raikiri. Now to add insult to injury she has Katsuyu which can use Zesshi Nensan which has melted rocks and has no set up time and is quick to use(via ). Kakashi can only dodge for so long as with nothing to take her down he's pretty screwed. To further add insult to injury all of the Sannin were portrayed as being on a higher level then Kakashi.

Kakashi has some good skills but with Katsuyu,her healing,her stamina which is higher then Kakashi's),her strength, and her ways to counter Kakashi all have me favoring Tsunade more times then not. Take away Katsuyu and it'll be a closer match but still likely ending with Katsuyu winning more times then not. The only versions of Kakashi that I believe can beat Tsunade are Kakashi's from the Pain arc and forward.


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## Jad (Mar 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> This means that any and all Kunai attacks will be useless unless Kakashi stabs her in the head or slices her throat, upon which both don't seem likely.



Are we totally discrediting the use of Raikiri Kunai usage? I know he didn't use it in part 1 but it doesn't seem like a _skill_ that Kakashi wouldn't have at that time. Even Samurai's who don't use ninjutsu can pour Chakara into their blades. So for a person with 5 in ninjutsu and 1000 jutsu's under his belt, would it be too much to say he could use it in this fight? Because Raikiri Kunai would slice through her entire body like it did to these large boulders by just piercing through them [1].


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## Bonly (Mar 12, 2013)

Jad said:


> *Are we totally discrediting the use of Raikiri Kunai usage?* I know he didn't use it in part 1 but it doesn't seem like a _skill_ that Kakashi wouldn't have at that time. Even Samurai's who don't use ninjutsu can pour Chakara into their blades. So for a person with 5 in ninjutsu and 1000 jutsu's under his belt, would it be too much to say he could use it in this fight? Because Raikiri Kunai would slice through her entire body like it did to these large boulders by just piercing through them [1].



Yup, and you answered the bold with the red. OP said "Feats are restricted to Part 1." then we gotta stick with feats of part one.


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## Jad (Mar 12, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Yup, and you answered the bold with the red. OP said "Feats are restricted to Part 1." then we gotta stick with feats of part one.



Oh I didn't see that restriction. My bad.


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## Santoryu (Mar 12, 2013)

What people are forgetting is that this version of Tsunade was rusty; it's manga canon that a part 1 Kabuto kept pace with her in close quarters combat. While it's true he had prior knowledge and took a pill to boost his chances, Kakashi has a Sharingan and superior base stats to more than make up for the advantages Kabuto had. The manga made it pretty clear that Kabuto (who was implied to be around Kakashi's level) was not completely outclassed by Tsunade; like it or not, but a fighter who has superior base stats and a Sharingan is going to pose a huge threat to Tsunade.

The Sharingan will allow Kakashi to evade any incoming attacks with great clarity; even a part 1 Kakashi was able to see through Itachi's set ups and was only taken out when the MS came into play. The main problem here is that using the Sharingan on top of chakra-taxing jutsu will quickly exhaust Kakashi, if he ends it quickly he'll have a decent chance, but if Tsunade gets a chance to summon Katsuyu, they'll quickly outlast Kakashi.

Tsunade high-diff.


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## Kai (Mar 12, 2013)

Jad said:


> Are we totally discrediting the use of Raikiri Kunai usage? I know he didn't use it in part 1 but it doesn't seem like a _skill_ that Kakashi wouldn't have at that time. Even Samurai's who don't use ninjutsu can pour Chakara into their blades. So for a person with 5 in ninjutsu and 1000 jutsu's under his belt, would it be too much to say he could use it in this fight? Because Raikiri Kunai would slice through her entire body like it did to these large boulders by just piercing through them [1].


It isn't in character for Kakashi's choice of offense to resort to Raiton kunai under any circumstance in Part 1, regardless of his skill level to use it.

You won't see people arguing Kakashi using Rasengan in an actual fight will you?

Kakashi has greater reflexes and diversity but in raw power and stamina he is absolutely dwarfed by Tsunade. I actually think Kakashi can avoid Tsunade all day with his 3 tomoe Sharingan, but the moment he goes in for the kill with Raikiri is when he seals his own death. It is canon Raikiri/Chidori users are vulnerable immediately after landing Chidori in the body, and once Tsunade activates Sozo Saisei, a medical jutsu beyond even _Orochimaru's_ imagination, she holds Kakashi's arm in place and one shots him with a punch maximally infused and released with her chakra.


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## ueharakk (Mar 12, 2013)

In part 1, Tsunade was a tier above Kakashi...

she tanks a raikiri and knocks his lights out then heals with souzo saize.


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## Jad (Mar 12, 2013)

Kai said:


> It isn't in character for Kakashi's choice of offense to resort to Raiton kunai under any circumstance in Part 1, regardless of his skill level to use it.
> 
> You won't see people arguing Kakashi using Rasengan in an actual fight will you?
> 
> Kakashi has greater reflexes and diversity but in raw power and stamina he is absolutely dwarfed by Tsunade. I actually think Kakashi can avoid Tsunade all day with his 3 tomoe Sharingan, but the moment he goes in for the kill with Raikiri is when he seals his own death. It is canon Raikiri/Chidori users are vulnerable immediately after landing Chidori in the body, and once Tsunade activates Sozo Saisei, a medical jutsu beyond even _Orochimaru's_ imagination, she holds Kakashi's arm in place and one shots him with a punch maximally infused and released with her chakra.



You make a fair point for the first part of your post. For the second part though, she activates Sozo Saisei by using a seal and closing her eyes to concentrate. With a Raikiri in her chest, she'd have to slap him away and I'm not sure with such injuries he would be taken out from the attack. She can't exactly regenerate with an entire hand in her chest/or heart still running Raikiri. What do you think?


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## Santoryu (Mar 12, 2013)

Kai said:


> but the moment he goes in for the kill with Raikiri is when he seals his own death. It is canon Raikiri/Chidori users are vulnerable immediately after landing Chidori in the body, and once Tsunade activates Sozo Saisei, a medical jutsu beyond even _Orochimaru's_ imagination, she holds Kakashi's arm in place and one shots him with a punch maximally infused and released with her chakra.



Not necessarily.

We've seen that Kakashi often utilizes Raikiri when his opponents' movements are restricted in some way shape or form-or when their attention is scattered elsewhere. In fact, he's even attempted to decapitate his opponents on multiple occasions, I don't see Tsunade surving that.

I'm guessing you're referring to when Kakashi's Raikiri was placed inside Haku, and the latter's ally used that as an opening, but still failed to kill Kakashi. What you must keep in mind is that Kakashi was aiming for Zabuza, not Haku, meaning he wasn't aiming for any vitals on Haku.

Here we saw that Kakuzu was unable to move an inch after being exposed to Raikiri
he wasn't aiming for any vitals


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## Jad (Mar 12, 2013)

Santoryu said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> We've seen that Kakashi often utilizes Raikiri when his opponents' movements are restricted in some way shape or form-or when their attention is scattered elsewhere. In fact, he's even attempted to decapitate his opponents on multiple occasions, I don't see Tsunade surving that.
> 
> ...



That could also be because with Haku he wasn't running Chidori through his body to paralyze him much like Sasuke did to Yamato, while you can clearly see sparks flying in the Kakuzu scenario.


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## Kai (Mar 12, 2013)

That's because Kakuzu was "killed" but had four other hearts to prolong his life to ignore death. When you destroy the heart inside his body he dies a little inside and is immobilized during the short duration of his "death."

For guys like A and Kyuubi Naruto who can still function after taking a direct Chidori (hardened body, bijuu rejuvenation)? They were pretty much given the priority to counterattack. 



			
				Santoryu said:
			
		

> I'm guessing you're referring to when Kakashi's Raikiri was placed inside Haku, and the latter's ally used that as an opening, but still failed to kill Kakashi.


Zabuza stated Kakashi was able to move and get away because *Haku was dead.*

In a rematch against their Edo Tensei, Haku firmly held Kakashi's hand in place after his Raikiri and Zabuza landed a successful cut on Kakashi with his sword. 



I think this very well portrays Kakashi and Sasuke's vulnerability to counterattacks after landing Raikiri and Chidori on a character. This is another example I didn't mention yet.


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## Santoryu (Mar 12, 2013)

Haku dramatically intercepted Kakashi's attack; You're right about Kakashi being wounded in that scene, but he did evade a fatal blow despite being distracted. Tsunade doesn't have someone to conveniently intercept a Raikiri for her. If the Raikiri kills her, there will be no counterattack on her part.

We see what happened to Zabuza when there is no one to step in
gaara's last minute sand defense (note that it also got rid of the sword)

A survived Chidori because he was clad in Raiton-armour and posseses a naturally durable body. The Kyuubi shroud shrugged off Orochimaru's Kusanagi blade and responded accoringly. Tsunade lacks these advantages. She won't be able to respond as efficiently as them, especially if Kakashi hits her vitals.

Sasuke was only vulnerable because Gaara had an "absolute defense" (which was pierced mind you) and Gaara transformed. Tsunade lacks these things. She has regeneration, but let's say Kakashi got behind her and decapitated her with Raikiri, or hit a vital spot, her being able to regen+take him out is unlikely due to her being dead.

Note that I do believe that Tsunade wins more often than not, I just don't think Kakashi using Raikiri will necessarily result in his downfall.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 12, 2013)

Kakashi's only chance is to take her out before she summons the Queen Slug and with just manga knowledge im not sure he will be inclined to go all out and try to kill her right off the bat. which of course may not work in the first place. 

In other words Tsunade wins.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2013)

Kakashi actually solos her, she has absolutely 0 feats outside of taijutsu and Kakashi was keeping up with Itachi back then, good enough to react and deliver an effective response. He outright stomps her ass.


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## joshhookway (Mar 13, 2013)

With Kakashi's Sharingan, Tsunade can't touch him in CCQ. Kakashi can then Chidori her head off.


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## Mithos (Mar 13, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi actually solos her, she has absolutely 0 feats outside of taijutsu and Kakashi was keeping up with Itachi back then, good enough to react and deliver an effective response. He outright stomps her ass.



Due to Souzou Saisei, Kakashi cannot effectively kill Tsunade. Kakashi's most useful skill, Raikiri, would likely work against him in this match. He impales Tsunade, meets her fist, and then she regenerates. It's also possible that Kakashi believes he has killed her, only for her to regenerate and launch a surprise attack when his guard his down.

Also, what does Kakashi do about Katsuyu?


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## Naiad (Mar 13, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Due to Souzou Saisei, Kakashi cannot effectively kill Tsunade. Kakashi's most useful skill, Raikiri, would likely work against him in this match.* He impales Tsunade, meets her fist, and then she regenerates. It's also possible that Kakashi believes he has killed her, only for her to regenerate and launch a surprise attack when his guard his down.*
> 
> Also, what does Kakashi do about Katsuyu?



didnt that work even on madara?


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## joshhookway (Mar 13, 2013)

Naiad said:


> didnt that work even on madara?





Probably not.

Kakashi will use Raikiri to cut off Tsunade's. Kakashi wouldn't be stupid to stab her knowing she can't regenerate.


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## Mithos (Mar 13, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Probably not.
> 
> Kakashi will use Raikiri to cut off Tsunade's. Kakashi wouldn't be stupid to stab her knowing she can't regenerate.



Sorry to say, this is after Byakugou ran out and Tsunade lacks the chakra left. There is also the problem that her body is pinned, which would not be the case against Kakashi. Also we have no idea what exactly Madara did. 

Kakashi isn't removing Tsunade's head with Raikiri - she can avoid that much at least. Anything short of a head-shot - which Kakashi will not land - will not kill her.



Naiad said:


> didnt that work even on madara?



In a way, yes. Not in the same scenario as it would be against Kakashi, but on 2 occasions her resilience and regeneration allowed her to take an attack and counter-attack:

The first was after was stabbed through the spine and was able to attack Madara with his own sword;

and the second she was able to tank her way through Susano'o swords and smash a clone down.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 14, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Due to Souzou Saisei, Kakashi cannot effectively kill Tsunade. Kakashi's most useful skill, Raikiri, would likely work against him in this match. He impales Tsunade, meets her fist, and then she regenerates. It's also possible that Kakashi believes he has killed her, only for her to regenerate and launch a surprise attack when his guard his down.
> 
> Also, what does Kakashi do about Katsuyu?


Summons aren't brought onto the field out of the blue unless the need calls for it, she's not going to summon Katsuyu in order to simply fight Kakashi in a 1 vs. 1 battle. She's not going to blindside Kakashi with a hit because of Kakashi's sharingan and not only that, Kakashi generally aims for the heart and/or the head with his technique, if either are hit, Tsunade is done for.

Even if Kakashi drops his guard, Tsunade doesn't have a level of skill that would allow her to sneak up on Kakashi. Kakashi was able to respond to cloaked (exceptionally fast) jutsu execution from Itachi, there's no way Tsunade trumps that.

If Katsuyu manages to surface on the battlefield, Kakashi can use any variety of his water-based jutsu to nullify her acid or wash away the acid, if he is exposed. He's copied the bulk of Zabuza's and some of Kisame's water-based ninjutsu. 

Oh and odds are Tsunade hits a clone and Kakashi follows that up with a Raikiri


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## Mithos (Mar 14, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Summons aren't brought onto the field out of the blue unless the need calls for it, she's not going to summon Katsuyu in order to simply fight Kakashi in a 1 vs. 1 battle. She's not going to blindside Kakashi with a hit because of Kakashi's sharingan and not only that, Kakashi generally aims for the heart and/or the head with his technique, if either are hit, Tsunade is done for.



Okay, first, it is IC for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu if she feels she needs it. She may not summon right away, but I have a very hard time seeing Kakashi managing to kill her before she realizes she needs help. 

Having the Sharingan doesn't make you impossible to hit. What does Kakashi do if his hit connects and she barrels into him like she did against Kabuto [1]? Her strength won't be negated and Kakashi will take heavy - perhaps crippling or fatal - damage. 

Tsunade has been pierced through the heart before survived. Even Asuma managed to survive for a while. Hell, even Haku was capable to grabbing and hanging onto Kakashi's arm before he died. At the very least Tsunade can clasp her hands together and activate her regeneration. 

This is if Kakashi even managed to land a heart shot, since Tsunade will be attacking and trying to evade. It shouldn't be particularly difficult to dodge enough to avoid being hit in the heart or the head - and in the former situation it likely wouldn't even take her out. 





Ryuzaki said:


> Even if Kakashi drops his guard, Tsunade doesn't have a level of skill that would allow her to sneak up on Kakashi. Kakashi was able to respond to cloaked (exceptionally fast) jutsu execution from Itachi, there's no way Tsunade trumps that.



There is a key difference in this scenario though: Kakashi believes Tsunade is dead so he would not be alert or on guard like in his skirmish with Itachi. Under orther circumstances I agree Tsunade likely would not get the jump on him. 

Just to demonstrate how much believing your opponent is dead lowers one's guard: Jiraiya, Ma and Pa were blind-sided by Pain, despite being capable of fighting and defeating 3 bodies at once. 



Ryuzaki said:


> If Katsuyu manages to surface on the battlefield, Kakashi can use any variety of his water-based jutsu to nullify her acid or wash away the acid, if he is exposed. He's copied the bulk of Zabuza's and some of Kisame's water-based ninjutsu.



If Kakashi has to spam water-style jutsu to prevent being melted he's going to exhaust himself before he kills Tsunade. His stamina is not good. 

Not to mention, if Kakashi has to devote a lot of effort to avoiding Katsuyu's acid, he is less able to fend off ground fissures and charges from Tsunade. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Oh and odds are Tsunade hits a clone and Kakashi follows that up with a Raikiri



What makes you think that Tsunade can't evade a kill-shot (a head shot) after a clone feint? Tsunade can dodge, opt to block, shift position to change where it will hit, smash the ground to disrupt Kakashi's assault; and if Katsuyu is present she can throw herself either at Katsuyu or over Tsunade or shoot acid at him. 

I'm sorry to say, Part I Kakashi is out-classed here. He is fighting a combatant with more skill in taijutsu, who is skilled in evasion, who is very resilient and can regenerate from nearly anything he can dish out, who has much more stamina, and has a summon to which Kakashi cannot defeat.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 15, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Okay, first, it is IC for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu if she feels she needs it. She may not summon right away, but I have a very hard time seeing Kakashi managing to kill her before she realizes she needs help.
> 
> Having the Sharingan doesn't make you impossible to hit. What does Kakashi do if his hit connects and she barrels into him like she did against Kabuto [1]? Her strength won't be negated and Kakashi will take heavy - perhaps crippling or fatal - damage.
> 
> ...


No it isn't, show a proof where Tsunade has ever started a fight with Katsuyu.

That's where we differ, she still thought Kakashi was below her back in Chapter 367 when both her and Jiraiya were discussing eventual Hokage candidates. That's why she'll assume he was below her in Part 1 and not immediately summon Katsuyu. It's absolutely out of her character to summon Katsuyu out of the blue as a starting move.

Kakashi broke through Kakuzu's hardended armored and eviscerated his heart, the heart is said to be chakra hub of the body. When Kabuto ripped Naruto's heart muscles, not even the Kyuubi was successful in healing him. Headshots or heartshots from a Raikiri are going to be impossible for Tsunade to tank.




Matto-sama said:


> There is a key difference in this scenario though: Kakashi believes Tsunade is dead so he would not be alert or on guard like in his skirmish with Itachi. Under orther circumstances I agree Tsunade likely would not get the jump on him.
> 
> Just to demonstrate how much believing your opponent is dead lowers one's guard: Jiraiya, Ma and Pa were blind-sided by Pain, despite being capable of fighting and defeating 3 bodies at once.


If Kakashi impales her with a Raikiri through her heart, she's dead regardless as her body won't be able to pump out anymore chakra. But in the off chance that Kakashi miscalculates, he's going to be able to react to her blindsided attack, for starters, Tsunade is sluggishly slow, her top speed was basically equivalent to (early) Part 2 Naruto. When you have the sharingan and sharp reflexes like Kakashi's he'll hear her a mile a way. 

For reference, Kakuzu was unable to detect Kakashi coming at him and that's when Kakashi was only half a tier faster than opponent. Kakashi's going to be able to sense Tsunade coming at him.



Matto-sama said:


> If Kakashi has to spam water-style jutsu to prevent being melted he's going to exhaust himself before he kills Tsunade. His stamina is not good.
> 
> Not to mention, if Kakashi has to devote a lot of effort to avoiding Katsuyu's acid, he is less able to fend off ground fissures and charges from Tsunade.


He could dodge, I was making it a point to state that dodging isn't the only thing he can do, he can use water-based ninjutsu to effectively counter the acid, if need be and it won't be chakra exhaustive either.


Matto-sama said:


> *What makes you think that Tsunade can't evade a kill-shot (a head shot) after a clone feint? *Tsunade can dodge, opt to block, shift position to change where it will hit, smash the ground to disrupt Kakashi's assault; and if Katsuyu is present she can throw herself either at Katsuyu or over Tsunade or shoot acid at him.
> 
> I'm sorry to say, Part I Kakashi is out-classed here. He is fighting a combatant with more skill in taijutsu, who is skilled in evasion, who is very resilient and can regenerate from nearly anything he can dish out, who has much more stamina, and has a summon to which Kakashi cannot defeat.


*Well for starters, Kakashi's much faster than her, while the clone is attacking or has her paralyzed, Kakashi can just Raikiri her. *

Kakashi isn't outclassed her at all, Tsunade only has her physical strength to rely on in order to defeat him and Tsunade doesn't have an enormous gap in skill that the sharingan won't atone for either. It's not like she has the gates or anything of that nature, her evasive skills are there but that means nothing before the sharingan.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 15, 2013)

Jad said:


> You make a fair point for the first part of your post. For the second part though, she activates Sozo Saisei by using a seal and closing her eyes to concentrate. With a Raikiri in her chest, she'd have to slap him away and I'm not sure with such injuries he would be taken out from the attack. She can't exactly regenerate with an entire hand in her chest/or heart still running Raikiri. What do you think?



Tsunade releases the sealsomewhere between getting off the ground and face punching Orochimaru.  

She decked Orochimaru after taking a chest stab, getting her side sliced into, and having her front chest sliced open.  Doing the same to Kakashi is not out of the question.  Also raikiri has never shocked anyone.


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## KakuzuForever (Mar 15, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> For reference, Kakuzu was unable to detect Kakashi coming at him and that's when Kakashi was only half a tier faster than opponent. Kakashi's going to be able to sense Tsunade coming at him..



I just wanted to point out that this is not a feat of speed.

Not to mention DB stats is crap as it contradicts many canon feats, and has hyperbole all over it.

Kishi wrote kakashi's snipe as a sneak attack.  Kakuzu did not know kakashi was there due to him hiding, while choji/shika were primarily fighting kakuzu.

In one of the last homages to a truly shinobi feat (like back in zabuza), kakashi did a ninja-like kill shot.

By comparison, it would be just as bad to assume that Kakuzu has a significant speed feat shown when he broadsided kakashi immediately afterwards.  Afterall, kakuzu was on the ground when kakashi dashed towards hidan, so he had to go even faster to catch up to kakashi...

Again, thinking this would be missing the point.  It wasn't meant to show his speed, but meant to show that it was a surprise attack since kakashi thought he was dead.


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## Mithos (Mar 15, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> No it isn't, show a proof where Tsunade has ever started a fight with Katsuyu.
> 
> That's where we differ, she still thought Kakashi was below her back in Chapter 367 when both her and Jiraiya were discussing eventual Hokage candidates. That's why she'll assume he was below her in Part 1 and not immediately summon Katsuyu. It's absolutely out of her character to summon Katsuyu out of the blue as a starting move.



I've already admitted that she may not open with summoning Katsuyu. But she doesn't have to. Kakashi won't be able to kill her before she realizes she should, or needs, to summon. 

Tsunade, immediately after overcoming her phobia, summons - prompting the other Sannin to summon as well [1][2].

How did Tsunade respond to Pain's invasion of Konoha? She summoned Katsuyu. How did she respond to help the alliance against the Edo Tensei/Zetsu army? She summoned Katsuyu. She's also known as the "Slug Princess" which indicates she summons a lot. 

She is going to summon at some point during the battle. If she doesn't, it's because she has already defeated Kakashi before it was needed. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi broke through Kakuzu's hardended armored and eviscerated his heart, the heart is said to be chakra hub of the body. When Kabuto ripped Naruto's heart muscles, not even the Kyuubi was successful in healing him. Headshots or heartshots from a Raikiri are going to be impossible for Tsunade to tank.



The Kyuubi wasn't able to heal Naruto's heart, but Tsunade's medical ninjutsu was. If medical ninjutsu can heal it, what is stopping Souzou Saisei - which "reconstructs any damaged parts and organs" [3]  - from doing it? 

Ninja, such as Naruto, Asuma and Haku, have taken wounds to the heart without dying right away. Tsunade will have time to clasp her hands together, which will allow her to regenerate. Here's the DB entry for Souzou Saisei, in case you don't want to take just Tsunade's word for it: 



> Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated, *reconstructing all organs and all tissues making up the human body!*
> If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means... for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades. That's the resolution hidden in this technique.







Ryuzaki said:


> If Kakashi impales her with a Raikiri through her heart, she's dead regardless as her body won't be able to pump out anymore chakra. But in the off chance that Kakashi miscalculates, he's going to be able to react to her blindsided attack, for starters, Tsunade is sluggishly slow, her top speed was basically equivalent to (early) Part 2 Naruto. When you have the sharingan and sharp reflexes like Kakashi's he'll hear her a mile a way.



First, Kabuto claims the chakra "in your heart muscles" has been sapped because blood flow has been cut off [4] - that in no way states or suggests that chakra cannot be used at all. Tsunade's chakra system would still be intact, so she can release the chakra in her seal to stimulate the reconstruction of her heart. 

Tsunade is not "sluggishly slow." She was able to intercept Orochimaru's attack on Naruto [5] multiple times [6]. She was able to blitz Orochimaru, by attacking him from the ground before he could react at all, even when he was watching her intently [7]. She was also able to intercept Manda mid-strike [8]. 

There is nothing that suggests that she is slow, not even when she was rusty. Kabuto and Orochimaru didn't dare approach her before she was gasping for breath - and even then Kabuto only did so after replenishing his own stamina and boosting his speed with a food pill. And even then, Tsunade was able to react and counter-attack him. 



Ryuzaki said:


> For reference, Kakuzu was unable to detect Kakashi coming at him and that's when Kakashi was only half a tier faster than opponent. Kakashi's going to be able to sense Tsunade coming at him.
> 
> He could dodge, I was making it a point to state that dodging isn't the only thing he can do, he can use water-based ninjutsu to effectively counter the acid, if need be and it won't be chakra exhaustive either.
> *Well for starters, Kakashi's much faster than her, while the clone is attacking or has her paralyzed, Kakashi can just Raikiri her. *



Tsunade would have no problem dealing with Kakashi's speed, given her speed and reaction feats displayed. She reacted to every attack throw at her and her teammates during her fight with Kabuto and Orochimaru. This fight is restricted to Part 1 feats; hence I have not mentioned Tsunade's Part 2 feats. 

I fail to see how having to dodge and spam water ninjutsu to protect himself against acid won't exhaust him eventually. He has poor stamina in Part 1. Tsunade, if anything, would outlast him with Katsuyu's support. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi isn't outclassed her at all, Tsunade only has her physical strength to rely on in order to defeat him and Tsunade doesn't have an enormous gap in skill that the sharingan won't atone for either. It's not like she has the gates or anything of that nature, her evasive skills are there but that means nothing before the sharingan.



Tsunade has taijutsu skill, physical strength, stamina and endurance, survivability (thanks to her medical ninjutsu and regeneration), and superior range (due to Katsuyu) over Kakashi. 

She doesn't have to land a hit straight-up against Kakashi because Tsunade has shown the skill and ability to swiftly counter-attack [9], even displaying the ability to strike back against an opponent before he can move due to momentum [10]. The Sharingan won't mean anything if he lands a hit and she strikes back before he can physically move. Any time he lands an attack, he will be left open to punishment.

That is all without Katsuyu. Your only argument against Katsuyu has been that Tsunade won't summon right away. That's fine. But she will summon. And when she does, Kakashi cannot cope. He _is_ outclassed.


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## EricWest (Mar 15, 2013)

Kakashi dies Literaly a minute after the fight starts his stamina was that shitty pre-skip.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 15, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> I've already admitted that she may not open with summoning Katsuyu. But she doesn't have to. Kakashi won't be able to kill her before she realizes she should, or needs, to summon.
> 
> Tsunade, immediately after overcoming her phobia, summons - prompting the other Sannin to summon as well [1][2].
> 
> ...


This is the dumbest thing I've seen, by this logic, she should have summoned Katsuyu like 92062038204523 chapters ago while fighting Madara alone, after he was overpowering them or when he started using Susano'o clones. I mean, it made obvious fucken sense that she could channel her healing chakra or Katsuyu's chakra to protect everyone. 

But she didn't, hence why she's not going to use it against Kakashi at all whatsoever, due to not only her self-assumed dominance over a jounin but because Kakashi's killing methods or attacking patterns would never warrant such a summoning. It's one thing if she Kakashi leaves her half dead like Madara and she summons him, but Kakashi isn't the type to do that.



Matto-sama said:


> The Kyuubi wasn't able to heal Naruto's heart, but Tsunade's medical ninjutsu was. If medical ninjutsu can heal it, what is stopping Souzou Saisei - which "reconstructs any damaged parts and organs" [3]  - from doing it?


There are a few things wrong with this assertion: 
Tsunade won't be up for using the technique until she takes a considerable amount of damage, which would be an advantage if Kakashi just didn't go for head/heart shots.
The heart serves as the chakra circulatory system, as we've seen with Sasori, if she takes a direct hit there without the jutsu being active, she's going to die.
She's not allowed to expand upon this technique like she did with Madara, she's only limited to what was shown in Part 1.



Matto-sama said:


> First, Kabuto claims the chakra "in your heart muscles" has been sapped because blood flow has been cut off [4] - that in no way states or suggests that chakra cannot be used at all. Tsunade's chakra system would still be intact, so she can release the chakra in her seal to stimulate the reconstruction of her heart.


Let's ask Kakuzu if he was able to draw upon chakra when Kakashi Raikiri'd him through the heart. Oh wait, he needed a new heart 



Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade is not "sluggishly slow." She was able to intercept Orochimaru's attack on Naruto [5] multiple times [6]. She was able to blitz Orochimaru, by attacking him from the ground before he could react at all, even when he was watching her intently [7]. She was also able to intercept Manda mid-strike [8].
> 
> There is nothing that suggests that she is slow, not even when she was rusty. Kabuto and Orochimaru didn't dare approach her before she was gasping for breath - and even then Kabuto only did so after replenishing his own stamina and boosting his speed with a food pill. And even then, Tsunade was able to react and counter-attack him.


Tsunade is as fast as early Part 2 Naruto/Part 1 Kabuto, she only trumped Orochimaru because he was sick and unable to use his arms.



Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade would have no problem dealing with Kakashi's speed, given her speed and reaction feats displayed. She reacted to every attack throw at her and her teammates during her fight with Kabuto and Orochimaru. This fight is restricted to Part 1 feats; hence I have not mentioned Tsunade's Part 2 feats.
> 
> I fail to see how having to dodge and spam water ninjutsu to protect himself against acid won't exhaust him eventually. He has poor stamina in Part 1. Tsunade, if anything, would outlast him with Katsuyu's support.


 

Kabuto is equal in terms of speed to Tsunade back then, Orochimaru was unhealthy and had no usage of his arms as I've stated. All of her Part 1 reaction feats are against opponents who were equally as fast or gimped to a certain degree.



Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade has taijutsu skill, physical strength, stamina and endurance, survivability (thanks to her medical ninjutsu and regeneration), and superior range (due to Katsuyu) over Kakashi.
> 
> She doesn't have to land a hit straight-up against Kakashi because Tsunade has shown the skill and ability to swiftly counter-attack [9], even displaying the ability to strike back against an opponent before he can move due to momentum [10]. The Sharingan won't mean anything if he lands a hit and she strikes back before he can physically move. Any time he lands an attack, he will be left open to punishment.
> 
> That is all without Katsuyu. Your only argument against Katsuyu has been that Tsunade won't summon right away. That's fine. But she will summon. And when she does, Kakashi cannot cope. He _is_ outclassed.


All Tsunade has is a slight advantage in terms of taijutsu skill, medical ninjutsu (1 technique) and stamina, one of which is negated by Kakashi's sharingan. How is Tsunade supposed to hit him? He would see that shit coming a mile way given the large speed gap. She doesn't have superior range because Kakashi's water-based techniques give him an advantage over Tsunade, not only does he save chakra by manipulating the water around him, but he's got the environmental advantage. He could essentially use the preexisting mist to fight her or water clones if need be.


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## Mithos (Mar 15, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> This is the dumbest thing I've seen, by this logic, she should have summoned Katsuyu like 92062038204523 chapters ago while fighting Madara alone, after he was overpowering them or when he started using Susano'o clones. I mean, it made obvious fucken sense that she could channel her healing chakra or Katsuyu's chakra to protect everyone.



Katsuyu was serving the alliance as communication and would not have been very effective, admittedly, against Madara. Tsunade would not have had the time to act as medic with 5 Susano'o clones after her - and the other Kage could not handle anymore to keep them away from her while she healed them. 



Ryuzaki said:


> But she didn't, hence why she's not going to use it against Kakashi at all whatsoever, due to not only her self-assumed dominance over a jounin but because Kakashi's killing methods or attacking patterns would never warrant such a summoning. It's one thing if she Kakashi leaves her half dead like Madara and she summons him, but Kakashi isn't the type to do that.



So if Tsunade is forced to regenerate and is failing to land hits on Kakashi while he is battering her around, Tsunade is going to say "Kakashi is just a Jounin so I shouldn't summon?" Please. 

Tsunade isn't stupid. She's not going to opt to die rather than summon, especially when she is known as the "Slug Princess" and has shown her tendency to summon in many situations. 

"Tsunade won't summon because that means Kakashi can't win" is basically what your argument sounds like to me.  





Ryuzaki said:


> There are a few things wrong with this assertion:
> Tsunade won't be up for using the technique until she takes a considerable amount of damage, which would be an advantage if Kakashi just didn't go for head/heart shots.
> The heart serves as the chakra circulatory system, as we've seen with Sasori, if she takes a direct hit there without the jutsu being active, she's going to die.
> She's not allowed to expand upon this technique like she did with Madara, she's only limited to what was shown in Part 1.



She doesn't have to use it until she takes a considerable amount of damage, seeing as even after being impaled through the chest [1],  slashed through the shoulder [2], slashed in the ribs [3] - on top of her previous injuries of having her muscles sliced [4] and a partially-healed wound to her intercostal muscles [5] - and was still able to blitz Orochimaru while he was watching her. 

Using Sasori works against your case. He managed to survive long enough to have a small conversation before dying. The heart is not the entire chakra circulatory system - it extends throughout the entire body. Kabuto only mentioned chakra related to that area as affected. There is no evidence or reason to believe chakra cannot be used with a wounded heart. Sasori was also affected by the chakra sealer on the ground. 

Her Part 1 feats are enough for her to regenerate a heart, or anything else short of her head. Tsunade's explanation of the mechanics, its Databook entry, and its feats of instantly restoring such severe wounds to pristine condition show she can reconstruct any organ she needs. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Let's ask Kakuzu if he was able to draw upon chakra when Kakashi Raikiri'd him through the heart. Oh wait, he needed a new heart



Scan? 



Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade is as fast as early Part 2 Naruto/Part 1 Kabuto, she only trumped Orochimaru because he was sick and unable to use his arms.



You have no basis to compare Tsunade's speed to early Part 2 Naruto. 

First, Kabuto has good reactions and evasive abilities. And he only out-sped her after exhausting her, replenishing himself and boosting his speed. And Tsunade was able to react to all of his attacks and counter appropriately. 

Orochimaru's speed and reactions were not affected by his lack of arms. 




Ryuzaki said:


> Kabuto is equal in terms of speed to Tsunade back then, Orochimaru was unhealthy and had no usage of his arms as I've stated. All of her Part 1 reaction feats are against opponents who were equally as fast or gimped to a certain degree.



Kabuto's speed and Orochimaru's lack of arms were addressed above.

So despite Tsunade reacting, even when exhausted to a boosted Kabuto, and to Orochimaru (whose speed is not affected by lack of arms, only the jutsu he could use) she cannot react to Kakashi? You're highly overrating Part 1 Kakashi's speed, to think that Tsunade cannot react to him. 



Ryuzaki said:


> All Tsunade has is a slight advantage in terms of taijutsu skill, medical ninjutsu (1 technique) and stamina, one of which is negated by Kakashi's sharingan. How is Tsunade supposed to hit him? He would see that shit coming a mile way given the large speed gap. She doesn't have superior range because Kakashi's water-based techniques give him an advantage over Tsunade, not only does he save chakra by manipulating the water around him, but he's got the environmental advantage. He could essentially use the preexisting mist to fight her or water clones if need be.



Have you not read my posts? I've been arguing that Tsunade can land an hit through a counter-attack - after Kakashi hits her, he is momentarily unable to move due to momentum and Tsunade can exploit this opening, as she did with Kabuto [6]. With the number of hits Kakashi will have to land on her to take her down, she will have numerous opportunities. Her skill in taijutsu allows her to pull off such counters. Kakashi's sharingan means nothing in an instance like that. 

Tsunade also has normal medical ninjutsu, which is sufficient for most wounds. Also, don't dismiss Souzou Saisei as just "1 technique" - sure it's a single technique, but it's one that allows her to reconstruct any organs or parts of her body nearly instantaneously. It's essentially a "get-out-of-jail-free" card that can be employed as long as she has the chakra. 

Tsunade has the superior ranged offense via Katsuyu. Huge AoE acid blasts > Kakashi's elementals, in terms of deadliness and how hard they are to evade. 

Kakashi does not fight well in mist. Why would he want to cloud his Sharingan insight to approach an opponent who is superior in taijutsu and can OHKO him with even a glancing blow? The mist also lessens his chances of evading her counter-attacks. And if he uses mist, surely Tsunade is going to resort more quickly to Katsuyu.


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## KakuzuForever (Mar 16, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi broke through Kakuzu's hardended armored and eviscerated his heart, the heart is said to be chakra hub of the body. When Kabuto ripped Naruto's heart muscles, not even the Kyuubi was successful in healing him. Headshots or heartshots from a Raikiri are going to be impossible for Tsunade to tank.
> .
> .
> //
> ...



There is a very big difference in your comparisons.

We can start with comparing kakuzu and tsunade.

*Tsunade is a medical nin with healing techs, kakuzu has none.*

Kabuto is also a medical nin with stuff like chakra scalpel (used here on naruto, and even before that here on Tsunade herself), allowing him to surgically cut the heart in a very special way, while kakashi is doing nothing different than a gross penetrating injury (no surgical precision for vital/key/critical points).

From relooking at the fight, tsunade ALSO got stabbed through the heart (albeit with a much smaller penetrating injury than raikiri would cause).  So not only do we have her heart muscles cut (per kabuto), but there is also a non-surgical hole in it too thanks to Oro.

*That is 2 counts against tsunade's heart.*

And relooking further, we find that despite these 2 injuries, Sōzō Saisei was able to heal them both without issue.

*Based on tsunade's statement, we must assume that unless kakashi's raikiri can completely irradicate all of tsunade's heart, then some will remain to be regenerated.*

Relooking at that fight, she got skewered by the kusanagi once, and sliced by it twice, and still managed to knock oro off his feet (all of this immediately after she fought kabuto, and therefore still retains all the wounds).

Part 1 kakashi does NOT have the ability to beat part 1 Tsunade.  They are on completely different tiers.  Not only in ability, but also how kishi represented them (so feats and background story match).

As I said before, she may be the weakest sannin by far, but she is still above kakashi in that time period.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 17, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Katsuyu was serving the alliance as communication and would not have been very effective, admittedly, against Madara. Tsunade would not have had the time to act as medic with 5 Susano'o clones after her - and the other Kage could not handle anymore to keep them away from her while she healed them.
> 
> So if Tsunade is forced to regenerate and is failing to land hits on Kakashi while he is battering her around, Tsunade is going to say "Kakashi is just a Jounin so I shouldn't summon?" Please.
> 
> ...



Part 1 Kakashi doesn't have substantial stamina feats to defeat Katsuyu, however, current Kakashi even without Kamui can beat her into an oblivion. But adding Katsuyu the field against Part 1 Kakashi shifts the advantage to Tsunade somewhat (really depending on when Tsunade summons her). I didn't think I'd have to spell out for you but that's just the truth of the matter, whether I like it or not, is inconsequential.



Matto-sama said:


> She doesn't have to use it until she takes a considerable amount of damage, seeing as even after being impaled through the chest [1], slashed through the shoulder [2], slashed in the ribs [3] - on top of her previous injuries of having her muscles sliced [4] and a partially-healed wound to her intercostal muscles [5] - and was still able to blitz Orochimaru while he was watching her.
> 
> 8hUsing Sasori works against your case. He managed to survive long enough to have a small conversation before dying. The heart is not the entire chakra circulatory system - it extends throughout the entire body. Kabuto only mentioned chakra related to that area as affected. There is no evidence or reason to believe chakra cannot be used with a wounded heart. Sasori was also affected by the chakra sealer on the ground.


Kakashi without fail, demolished Kakuzu's heart, are you saying that she'll just clasp her hands and regrow everything when she can't even pump out her chakra? And i'm not talking about wounded, Kakuzu just had his heart punctured, Kakashi with heartshot on Tsunade would not only puncture her heart, he'd eviscerate it. Having your heart punctured =/= having it destroyed by an elemental jutsu.



Matto-sama said:


> Her Part 1 feats are enough for her to regenerate a heart, or anything else short of her head. Tsunade's explanation of the mechanics, its Databook entry, and its feats of instantly restoring such severe wounds to pristine condition show she can reconstruct any organ she needs.


Okay, so on one hand you want to use the databook to support your argument and when I bring up the speed argument, you just dismiss it?



Matto-sama said:


> Scan?


Scan for what? Kakashi's blindsided attack when he went ahead and ripped through Kakuzu's heart and he ended up replacing it with a new one.




Matto-sama said:


> You have no basis to compare Tsunade's speed to early Part 2 Naruto.
> 
> First, Kabuto has good reactions and evasive abilities. And he only out-sped her after exhausting her, replenishing himself and boosting his speed. And Tsunade was able to react to all of his attacks and counter appropriately.
> 
> Orochimaru's speed and reactions were not affected by his lack of arms.


The hell I don't, they are both rated at 3.5 in the 3rd Databook which was released at the same time as Hidan/Kakuzu Arc. 

What the fuck did I just read? 

Orochimaru was sick, had a fever and was unable to use his arms, the fuck do you mean his speed/reactions weren't affected, he couldn't use his ninjutsu/genjutsu at all, and bare minimum taijutsu.

Also, try running with your arms limp, that's basically what Orochimaru was doing.




Matto-sama said:


> So despite Tsunade reacting, even when exhausted to a boosted Kabuto, and to Orochimaru (whose speed is not affected by lack of arms, only the jutsu he could use) she cannot react to Kakashi? You're highly overrating Part 1 Kakashi's speed, to think that Tsunade cannot react to him.


Tsunade can't, she's too slow, she is rated in the same speed tier as Hidan, Part 2 Naruto, Kakuzu is  roughly half a tier faster than her, Asuma has a full tier on her, Kakashi has a full tier on her at the end of Part 1, beginning Part 1 Kakashi is half a tier faster. You're the one underrating their speed, not me.



Matto-sama said:


> Have you not read my posts? I've been arguing that Tsunade can land an hit through a counter-attack - after Kakashi hits her, he is momentarily unable to move due to momentum and Tsunade can exploit this opening, as she did with Kabuto [6]. With the number of hits Kakashi will have to land on her to take her down, she will have numerous opportunities. Her skill in taijutsu allows her to pull off such counters. Kakashi's sharingan means nothing in an instance like that.
> 
> Tsunade also has normal medical ninjutsu, which is sufficient for most wounds. Also, don't dismiss Souzou Saisei as just "1 technique" - sure it's a single technique, but it's one that allows her to reconstruct any organs or parts of her body nearly instantaneously. It's essentially a "get-out-of-jail-free" card that can be employed as long as she has the chakra.
> 
> ...


Yes, because it's not like Kakashi beat a warrior who trained in the mist or anything like that either right? 

The mist screws Tsunade's chances of actually hitting Kakashi. How is she supposed to find him? Does she have any work arounds for that? I'm not talking about the Hidden Mist technique, I'm talking about the naturally existing mist that is there, the Hidden Mist Technique would be a disadvantage for Kakashi but he doesn't need that. Tsunade is the one that's in a shit's creek right now. In fact with his sharingan, Kakashi can pretty much pick her apart as he wants and determine a viable method for dispatching her, it's not like she can keep up to his regular speed, let alone being blindsided in a mist prevalent environment.

So far the only thing you have going for you is assuming that she attacks with a counter attack hits Kakashi OHKO, but odds are she'd be hitting a water clone more times than not and it would also expose her only advantage as Kakashi's m/o is more about using clones to discover flaws in his opponents than he is about overpowering them. 



KakuzuForever said:


> There is a very big difference in your comparisons.
> 
> We can start with comparing kakuzu and tsunade.
> 
> ...


Kakuzu is more or less the Akatsuki's medical ninja and he's quite intelligent about the human anatomy. He sewed up Deidara's arms, he's got more experience than you give him credit for. The fact that he couldn't recover, especially using his unique ninjutsu, speaks more about raikiri.

None of those attacks are on the level that an elemental technique like Raikiri is, that shit will tear the heart apart far more fiercely than any old katana could.


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## KakuzuForever (Mar 18, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakuzu is more or less the Akatsuki's medical ninja and he's quite intelligent about the human anatomy. He sewed up Deidara's arms, he's got more experience than you give him credit for. The fact that he couldn't recover, especially using his unique ninjutsu, speaks more about raikiri.



It is true that in terms of "medical shinobi", kakuzu would be the closest in akatsuki unless you count Naraka path.

However, kakuzu's knowledge of anatomy and showings of sewing arms/heads is not the same as regenerating by hyper-stimulating cells to divide faster.

Tsunade has shown these abilities, while Kakuzu has not.  So saying how Kakashi heart-shot kakuzu and how he couldn't recover means nothing in relation to tsunade who does have rejuvenation techs.  It's a non sequitur.

*Remember, we are talking feats.  Kakuzu has never displayed regenerative feats like Tsunade.*

As much as I'd wish kakuzu were given more power b/c he was fodderized due to rushing the immortals arc, he doesn't have anything like Sōzō Saisei.





Ryuzaki said:


> None of those attacks are on the level that an elemental technique like Raikiri is, that shit will tear the heart apart far more fiercely than any old katana could.



You seem to have missed my point about Tsunade's statement.  I'll reiterate it...

"Based on tsunade's statement, we must assume that unless kakashi's raikiri can completely irradicate all of tsunade's heart, then some will remain to be regenerated"

So unless your statement of "tear the heart apart more fiercely than any old katana could" (btw, nice strawman: it was Kusanagi) means "complete destruction of all of her heart cells", then Tsunade will regenerate from it.


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## Mithos (Mar 18, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Part 1 Kakashi doesn't have substantial stamina feats to defeat Katsuyu, however, current Kakashi even without Kamui can beat her into an oblivion. But adding Katsuyu the field against Part 1 Kakashi shifts the advantage to Tsunade somewhat (really depending on when Tsunade summons her). I didn't think I'd have to spell out for you but that's just the truth of the matter, whether I like it or not, is inconsequential.



We're not talking about current Kakashi so I'm not going to comment on how he would fare against Katsuyu. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi without fail, demolished Kakuzu's heart, are you saying that she'll just clasp her hands and regrow everything when she can't even pump out her chakra? And i'm not talking about wounded, Kakuzu just had his heart punctured, Kakashi with heartshot on Tsunade would not only puncture her heart, he'd eviscerate it. Having your heart punctured =/= having it destroyed by an elemental jutsu.



Souzou Saisei regenerates at the cellular level - if there are heart cells left, she can reconstruct her heart. 

I'm not buying that Tsunade cannot manipulate any chakra after taking a Raikiri. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Okay, so on one hand you want to use the databook to support your argument and when I bring up the speed argument, you just dismiss it?



The DB speed stat isn't very useful for this fight - or for comparing most fighters. First of all, it is just base movement speed. It does not include reaction speed or evasive ability, and it doesn't include Shunshin - a ninjutsu - which Tsunade is proficient in. Besides, Kakashi has to get close to Tsunade to attack with Raikiri, which leaves him open to her counter-attacks as I explained in my previous posts. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Scan for what? Kakashi's blindsided attack when he went ahead and ripped through Kakuzu's heart and he ended up replacing it with a new one.



Proving one cannot manipulate chakra with a damaged heart. 



Ryuzaki said:


> The hell I don't, they are both rated at 3.5 in the 3rd Databook which was released at the same time as Hidan/Kakuzu Arc.



Speed stat already addressed. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Orochimaru was sick, had a fever and was unable to use his arms, the fuck do you mean his speed/reactions weren't affected, he couldn't use his ninjutsu/genjutsu at all, and bare minimum taijutsu.



What does not being able to use ninjutsu/genjutsu have to do with reaction or movement speed? 

Orochimaru wasn't even able to attempt to move back or out of the way, Tsunade struck so fast. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Also, try running with your arms limp, that's basically what Orochimaru was doing.



Orochimaru couldn't even react - having to run awkwardly wouldn't prevent him from reacting to move backwards or try to duck. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Tsunade can't, she's too slow, she is rated in the same speed tier as Hidan, Part 2 Naruto, Kakuzu is  roughly half a tier faster than her, Asuma has a full tier on her, Kakashi has a full tier on her at the end of Part 1, beginning Part 1 Kakashi is half a tier faster. You're the one underrating their speed, not me.



Tsunade is not slow. Her base speed isn't very impressive, I agree. But she has shown good speed feats through shunshin, which is not included in the speed stat. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Yes, because it's not like Kakashi beat a warrior who trained in the mist or anything like that either right?



He won because he could track Zabuza's scent to know his general whereabouts. I don't see how this helps against Tsunade too much. 



Ryuzaki said:


> The mist screws Tsunade's chances of actually hitting Kakashi. How is she supposed to find him? Does she have any work arounds for that? I'm not talking about the Hidden Mist technique, I'm talking about the naturally existing mist that is there, the Hidden Mist Technique would be a disadvantage for Kakashi but he doesn't need that. Tsunade is the one that's in a shit's creek right now. In fact with his sharingan, Kakashi can pretty much pick her apart as he wants and determine a viable method for dispatching her, it's not like she can keep up to his regular speed, let alone being blindsided in a mist prevalent environment.



First she doesn't have to find him because he will come to her to attack. Kakashi's Sharingan insight will be clouded, which severely lowers his chances of avoiding her attacks and counter-attacks. And of avoiding Katsuyu's acid. 

She can keep up with his regular speed. And if she gets ambushed, she can at least avoid enough to survive -  which considering how resilient to damage she is shouldn't be too difficult - and then she can activate Souzou Saisei. 

And Katsuyu would work wonders here. Katsuyu would bring her up out of harms way - Katsuyu would know right away if Kakashi jumps on her. Or Katsuyu can divide up and search for Kakashi to help Tsunade find him and tell Tsunade where he is, or where he may be attacking from. 



Ryuzaki said:


> So far the only thing you have going for you is assuming that she attacks with a counter attack hits Kakashi OHKO, but odds are she'd be hitting a water clone more times than not and it would also expose her only advantage as Kakashi's m/o is more about using clones to discover flaws in his opponents than he is about overpowering them.



Water clones have only 10% power and wouldn't be much of a threat to Tsunade. Even wave-arc Sasuke could slaughter multiple water clones from a much, much stronger opponent. Kakashi can't hide and use clone feints forever. Tsunade is highly intelligent and will figure it out. And besides that, he will eventually exhaust himself trying to avoid her and fake her out. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Kakuzu is more or less the Akatsuki's medical ninja and he's quite intelligent about the human anatomy. He sewed up Deidara's arms, he's got more experience than you give him credit for. The fact that he couldn't recover, especially using his unique ninjutsu, speaks more about raikiri.



Kakuzu doesn't have a regeneration technique. He can reattach limbs with thread, that's it. Souzou Saisei is the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu and is unrivaled by any other technique when it comes to regeneration (well other than Byakugou, which is just Souzou Saisei without needing to activate the hand-seal each time). 



Ryuzaki said:


> None of those attacks are on the level that an elemental technique like Raikiri is, that shit will tear the heart apart far more fiercely than any old katana could.



You're calling the Kusanagi an "old katana"? It's known for its ability to cut and inflict damage on nearly anything. 

Raikiri is a devastating technique for sure. Without Souzou Saisei Tsunade would die if she took a direct hit. However, the beauty and point of Souzou Saisei is that Tsunade can regenerate and make practically any wound instantly disappear as if it were never there in the first place. 

Souzou Saisei > Raikiri

As long as Tsunade has chakra, she is practically immortal. And Kakashi is not exhausting her to the point where she doesn't have the chakra to regenerate so she will be surviving his attacks.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 19, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> Souzou Saisei regenerates at the cellular level - if there are heart cells left, she can reconstruct her heart.
> 
> I'm not buying that Tsunade cannot manipulate any chakra after taking a Raikiri.




I think it was blatantly obvious from Sasori's appearance that the chakra hub is the heart and if it's damaged it will not be able to utilize chakra any further. This further supported by when Kabuto slices Naruto's heart muscles and Naruto is unable to utilize the Kyuubi's chakra in order to heal himself as he would under normal circumstances. The only difference in this scenario with Kakashi and those scenarios the heart would be demolished beyond repair, whereas Tsunade was able to heal prior to mere slice wounds by reconnecting tissues, she's not going to be able to reproduce heart cells because raikiri isn't going to leave much behind to repair. Furthermore, in most cases in reality heart cells do not regenerate over time for a reason.



Matto-sama said:


> The DB speed stat isn't very useful for this fight - or for comparing most fighters. First of all, it is just base movement speed. It does not include reaction speed or evasive ability, and it doesn't include Shunshin - a ninjutsu - which Tsunade is proficient in. Besides, Kakashi has to get close to Tsunade to attack with Raikiri, which leaves him open to her counter-attacks as I explained in my previous posts.


I think you're being mislead here, 





> (Spd) Speed - Measure of swiftness and reaction speed


. Standard speed and reaction speed are accounted for in reading the databook stats for speed.




Matto-sama said:


> What does not being able to use ninjutsu/genjutsu have to do with reaction or movement speed?
> 
> Orochimaru wasn't even able to attempt to move back or out of the way, Tsunade struck so fast.


Nothing at all, you were going on about how great Tsunade was, I just wanted to mention that almost anyone could look great when they have to fight someone with both hands pretty much tied to their back.



Matto-sama said:


> Orochimaru couldn't even react - having to run awkwardly wouldn't prevent him from reacting to move backwards or try to duck.




Orochimaru couldn't react because he was sick, had a fever and no usage of his arms. Using arms to move increase movement speed. How hard of a concept is that to understand? Thus, being limited to such a degree Orochimaru was brought down to Tsunade's level. 



Matto-sama said:


> Tsunade is not slow. Her base speed isn't very impressive, I agree. But she has shown good speed feats through shunshin, which is not included in the speed stat.


None of that means shit in front a sharingan user who are able to predict the movement of a tailed beast. 



Matto-sama said:


> He won because he could track Zabuza's scent to know his general whereabouts. I don't see how this helps against Tsunade too much.


Zabuza was faster than Tsunade and he was able to track her, he's going to be able to do that against Tsunade, regardless of her resilient she may be.



Matto-sama said:


> First she doesn't have to find him because he will come to her to attack. Kakashi's Sharingan insight will be clouded, which severely lowers his chances of avoiding her attacks and counter-attacks. And of avoiding Katsuyu's acid.
> 
> She can keep up with his regular speed. And if she gets ambushed, she can at least avoid enough to survive -  which considering how resilient to damage she is shouldn't be too difficult - and then she can activate Souzou Saisei.
> 
> And Katsuyu would work wonders here. Katsuyu would bring her up out of harms way - Katsuyu would know right away if Kakashi jumps on her. Or Katsuyu can divide up and search for Kakashi to help Tsunade find him and tell Tsunade where he is, or where he may be attacking from.


Why would Kakashi's sharingan sight be clouded? 

Assuming Kakashi goes after her, she'll most likely be busy with a clone and then she'll get blindsided, exactly how it happened to Kakuzu and then she'll die because she essentially has her heart ripped to shreds.



Matto-sama said:


> Water clones have only 10% power and wouldn't be much of a threat to Tsunade. Even wave-arc Sasuke could slaughter multiple water clones from a much, much stronger opponent. Kakashi can't hide and use clone feints forever. Tsunade is highly intelligent and will figure it out. And besides that, he will eventually exhaust himself trying to avoid her and fake her out.


I don't think Kakashi ever used his water clones for anything but reconnaissance or studying his opponents attacking patterns, it doesn't necessarily have to kill her, but if it did that'd be great. It can work as an excellent diversionary technique while Kakashi preps Raikiri.



Matto-sama said:


> Kakuzu doesn't have a regeneration technique. He can reattach limbs with thread, that's it. Souzou Saisei is the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu and is unrivaled by any other technique when it comes to regeneration (well other than Byakugou, which is just Souzou Saisei without needing to activate the hand-seal each time).


I'm not sure why you bothered replying to this because I was speaking to other guy...??



Matto-sama said:


> You're calling the Kusanagi an "old katana"? It's known for its ability to cut and inflict damage on nearly anything.
> 
> Raikiri is a devastating technique for sure. Without Souzou Saisei Tsunade would die if she took a direct hit. However, the beauty and point of Souzou Saisei is that Tsunade can regenerate and make practically any wound instantly disappear as if it were never there in the first place.
> 
> ...


Compared to elemental ninjutsu of wind/raiton techniques, kusanagi might as well be an old katana.

Lol @ Souzou Saisei > Raikiri

Souzou Saisei is a one time technique that can be used in battle, after that it's effects are not everlasting like Byakugou. Basically what you are saying is that Kakashi can go ahead and rip her heart out and she'll magically be able to grow one without a problem despite her not having the one organ that controls chakra?


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