# Onoki vs 6 Paths Of Pain



## Eliyua23 (Oct 5, 2013)

Location: Rain Village

Knowledge: Manga

Distance: 50 m

Mindset:IC


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2013)

Gakidou absorbs Jinton.

Tendou uses Banshou Tenin.

The other paths gangbang with black chakra rods.

GG, Oonoki.

What were you thinking, actually posting this match?


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## Aging Boner (Oct 5, 2013)

This isn't even a battle...Ohnoki has no chance of winning this.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 5, 2013)

He teaches Ōnoki the true meaning of Pain...


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## Jagger (Oct 5, 2013)

Onoki learns once more that the title of Tsuchikage means nothing in front of the blessed eyes.


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## Senjuclan (Oct 5, 2013)

LOL ... LOL ... How do you define a stomp?


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## Dominus (Oct 5, 2013)

Pain wins this of course and did you seriously put Sakura above Pain in your tier list?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2013)

That tier list...

Holy. Fucking. _Shit_.


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## ueharakk (Oct 5, 2013)

pain's moveset it really bad for oonoki (well it's bad for a lot of characters since its so diverse and haxed).

with shared vision, he'll see all the rock clones on the battlefield, shinra tensei dispells all of them and preta absorbs jinton.

deva path might not even be needed, asura could take out oonoki's clones with guided missiles while animal path can sneak up on the guy with the chameleon and end him due to the area being the rain village.

Oonoki ends up getting killed by multiple shinra tensei, or banshou tennined into an asura laserblast/missile spam while preta path just absorbs any of his jintons.


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## Ghost (Oct 5, 2013)

Pain no diff. Also OP, that tier list in your sig sucks dick.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2013)

This isn't a stomp. Onoki defeated 5 Madara clones while exhausted who are individually stronger than any single path of pain bar (Focused) Deva Realm. Than when recharged by Tsunade he demolished 25 Madara clones. 

If Madara clones couldn't avoid being super weighted even when wielding Stage 3 Susano'o, how are are Pain Realms going to far any differently. Once super weighted Animal, Human, Naraka, and Asura are pretty much defenseless against any attack Onoki pulls out after that. HG Realm could defend certain attacks, but we saw Onoki pull out Jinton faster than any of the Madara clones and even the real Madara (before his body was partially vaporized) could pull out HG Realm, so I don't see HG realm being able to defend Onoki's more powerful Jinton attacks. Deva is really the only challenge here for Onok, but using BT on Onoki would not be a good idea since drawing him in close would be an open invitation for Onoki to turn him into stone. ST will keep Deva safe for awhile, but it won't work so well in the long term do to the cool down time. With super weighting Deva is probably not escaping to get closer to Nagato to use CT, though if he did Large Jinton could probably bust CT regardless. 

CST is one option here, though this requires the deactivation of the other Realms and time for Nagato to focus his chakra to Deva. Deva also can't rely on flight to keep him safe here since Onoki is the superior flier. So most likely he'd go down before he got a chance to launch the attack. Though he could indeed win that way.

The only other advantage Pain has is that he can use Onoki's lack of intel to get Onoki to waste his stamina and exhaust himself. However this will be more difficult as Onoki has actually gone up against Rinnegan to a certain extent through Madara, so he'll know what to expect to a certain degree.

So I honestly favor Onoki here. If Onoki has to also hunt down and kill Nagato, than he probably runs too low on Stamina to beat Nagato after facing Pain Rikudo, but I don't think that is the OP's intent.


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## egressmadara (Oct 5, 2013)

>Asura's missiles
> Animal Summon spamming
> Gravity Manipulation

Onoki doesn't last any longer than a minute here.


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## ueharakk (Oct 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This isn't a stomp. Onoki defeated 5 Madara clones while exhausted who are individually stronger than any single path of pain bar (Focused) Deva Realm. Than when recharged by Tsunade he demolished 25 Madara clones.
> 
> If Madara clones couldn't avoid being super weighted even when wielding Stage 3 Susano'o, how are are Pain Realms going to far any differently. Once super weighted Animal, Human, Naraka, and Asura are pretty much defenseless against any attack Onoki pulls out after that. HG Realm could defend certain attacks, but we saw Onoki pull out Jinton faster than any of the Madara clones and even the real Madara (before his body was partially vaporized) could pull out HG Realm, so I don't see HG realm being able to defend Onoki's more powerful Jinton attacks. Deva is really the only challenge here for Onok, but using BT on Onoki would not be a good idea since drawing him in close would be an open invitation for Onoki to turn him into stone. ST will keep Deva safe for awhile, but it won't work so well in the long term do to the cool down time. With super weighting Deva is probably not escaping to get closer to Nagato to use CT, though if he did Large Jinton could probably bust CT regardless.



A>B>C logic cannot be utilized in direct character to character comparisons.

  By that logic SM Naruto stomps pein with no difficulty since just one of his SM clones defeats sandaime raikage who is individually stronger than all of the pains paths bar focused deva. 

Plus if he so happens to pull off a miracle and touch one of the paths and make it super heavy preta path just absorbs his jutsu off of the path.  So you can't just presuppose oonoki makes all those guys heavy simply because they'd lose to a madara clone in a 1 vs 1 match, you'd have to show how he'd pull that off when pein's abilities are taken into account.

your post also doesn't take into account deva using shinra tensei offensively, as in when oonoki is preparing jinton he blasts oonoki with the technique.  

As far as preta path absorbing jinton, we've already seen madara who wasn't paying attention to oonoki absorbed a jinton at a much much closer range than oonoki did against his clones and the real madara.  so madara not being able to absorb the super jinton in time would either be due to him having clones using susanoo running about, not that he himself wasn't able to use the technique in time if alone.


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## Dr. White (Oct 5, 2013)

^Not to mention Madara was just fucking with the Hokages.


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## Coppur (Oct 5, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Pain wins this of course and did you seriously put Sakura above Pain in your tier list?


Not only that, but he also has Mito and Kushina above Sennin Kabuto and Tobirama. What. The. Fuck.

Anyway back on topic, Pain destroys Onoki, Deva can counter his flying, and Preta can counter his jinton and doton, so pretty much all of his abilities are effectively useless against Pein, whilst Pein has more than enough to take down the Tsuchikage.

Pein stomps.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> A>B>C logic cannot be utilized in direct character to character comparisons.


A>B>C logic works fine in this scenario, because each Madara clone literally has all the powers of Mokuton, EMS, and Rinnegan. So each Madara clone should be considerably stronger than any Path of Pain. So Onoki being able to defeat 5 of them when not at 100% and defeat 25 when at 100%; makes it highly unlikely that the 6 Paths are going to decimate Onoki.



> By that logic SM Naruto stomps pein with no difficulty since just one of his SM clones defeats sandaime raikage who is individually stronger than all of the pains paths bar focused deva.


SM Naruto clone had help. Also I fail to see the comparison. It's not like Dat-Clone defeated 25 Sandaime Raikages. If that happened than yeah I'd be arguing that SM Naruto stomps the ever loving shit out Pain.



> Plus if he so happens to pull off a miracle and touch one of the paths and make it super heavy preta path just absorbs his jutsu off of the path.


Onoki doesn't need to touch the paths. He just needs to touch the ground and he can make everything within at least an island radius weigh altered. 

Also if it was that easy to dispel the weight alteration, Madara clones would have done so, but they were rendered completely immobile and defeated. 



> So you can't just presuppose oonoki makes all those guys heavy simply because they'd lose to a madara clone in a 1 vs 1 match, you'd have to show how he'd pull that off when pein's abilities are taken into account.


Madara clones had all of Pain's Rinnegan abilities and than some. 



> your post also doesn't take into account deva using shinra tensei offensively, as in when oonoki is preparing jinton he blasts oonoki with the technique.


We haven't seen Shinra Tensei used as an effective offense at anything other than close range. Onoki really doesn't fight at close range. CST is a different story, which I did account for.



> As far as preta path absorbing jinton, we've already seen madara who wasn't paying attention to oonoki absorbed a jinton at a much much closer range than oonoki did against his clones and the real madara. so madara not being able to absorb the super jinton in time would either be due to him having clones using susanoo running about, not that he himself wasn't able to use the technique in time if alone.


The Cube Jinton has always appeared faster than the Cone Jinton. And it wasn't just Madara who couldn't absorb it in time, but everyone of those 25 clones.

There is no reason why Madara using clones would lower his speed/reaction time, that has never been the case and simply is not how clones work. So there is no reason to assume this, but to downplay Onoki unfairly.


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## Senjuclan (Oct 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This isn't a stomp. Onoki defeated 5 Madara clones while exhausted who are individually stronger than any single path of pain bar (Focused) Deva Realm. Than when recharged by Tsunade he demolished 25 Madara clones.
> 
> If Madara clones couldn't avoid being super weighted even when wielding Stage 3 Susano'o, how are are Pain Realms going to far any differently. Once super weighted Animal, Human, Naraka, and Asura are pretty much defenseless against any attack Onoki pulls out after that. HG Realm could defend certain attacks, but we saw Onoki pull out Jinton faster than any of the Madara clones and even the real Madara (before his body was partially vaporized) could pull out HG Realm, so I don't see HG realm being able to defend Onoki's more powerful Jinton attacks. Deva is really the only challenge here for Onok, but using BT on Onoki would not be a good idea since drawing him in close would be an open invitation for Onoki to turn him into stone. ST will keep Deva safe for awhile, but it won't work so well in the long term do to the cool down time. With super weighting Deva is probably not escaping to get closer to Nagato to use CT, though if he did Large Jinton could probably bust CT regardless.
> 
> ...



Not sure if you are serious or not. Pein does not play around like Madara and using preta alone Madara showed that jinton is useless. Pein has shared vision, plus deva, which means that Oonoki cannot surprise him.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Not sure if you are serious or not. Pein does not play around like Madara and using preta alone Madara showed that jinton is useless. Pein has shared vision, plus deva, which means that Oonoki cannot surprise him.



I'm completely serious 25 Madara Clones >>> Pain Rikudo. Hell the 5 Onoki beat when exhausted are at least equivalent to Pain Rikudo imo. They literally each have the abilities of all 6 Paths and than Mokuton/Sharingan abilities on top of that, plus superior speed/reaction time. It's hard for me to accept Onoki is that strong as well, but that's what Kishi choose to show us

Madara (& the 25 clones) got hit by Onoki's Jinton Cube, so the larger Cubes can be deployed fast enough to hit before HG Realm can be used. 

Madara was messing around, which is why I don't consider him weaker than Onoki, as he clearly displayed he was much more powerful when he pulled out P-Susano'o and started getting more serious. However even when messing around 25 Madara clones are well beyond Pain Rikudo in strength.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 5, 2013)

......

.....Do I even need to explain


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## Ersa (Oct 5, 2013)

Onoki gets destroyed.

Pein counters him perfectly and is a tier above.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 5, 2013)

The Madara clones example is a bad example. Madara was fucking around; Nagato tends to not do that.


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## ueharakk (Oct 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> A>B>C logic works fine in this scenario, because each Madara clone literally has all the powers of Mokuton, EMS, and Rinnegan. So each Madara clone should be considerably stronger than any Path of Pain. So Onoki being able to defeat 5 of them when not at 100% and defeat 25 when at 100%; makes it highly unlikely that the 6 Paths are going to decimate Onoki.


A>B>C logic almost never works in any character vs character scenario especially in the battledome where plot holds no meaning.

First off you don't even know if they can use all the rinnegan paths, and secondly it doesn't matter if they have the same power if they don't use them.



Turrin said:


> SM Naruto clone had help. Also I fail to see the comparison. It's not like Dat-Clone defeated 25 Sandaime Raikages. If that happened than yeah I'd be arguing that SM Naruto stomps the ever loving shit out Pain.


Naruto's SM clone didn't have help, when it entered SM it told everyone to just stand back and it beat sandaime raikage on its own.  and it's irrelevant if SM Naruto's clone had help as your A>B>C logic ignores the stipulations of the fight.  If you want to bring in stipulations, then those susanoos are much bigger targets and none of those clones were using paths of pain powers.

And it doesn't have to defeat 25 sandaime raikages since that's not the comparison you are making, you are saying since oonoki defeated 5 susanoos madara clones and each are stronger than pain's bodies, then he beats 5 pain bodies as well.  That's straight up A>B>C logic oonoki > 5 susanoos > 5 pain bodies.



Turrin said:


> Onoki doesn't need to touch the paths. He just needs to touch the ground and he can make everything within at least an island radius weigh altered.


 

because naruto wouldn't have noticed his weight decreasing to almost nothing.

well oonoki is a pretty uncool guy considering he could have solod all 25 susanoo clones with his weighted technique instead of allowing them to ravage mei and gaara and impale tsunade with giant swords who knows how many times.

In every instance oonoki has used that weighted technique in battle, he had to be directly in contact with what he touched.




Turrin said:


> Also if it was that easy to dispel the weight alteration, Madara clones would have done so, but they were rendered completely immobile and defeated.


weight alteration is a ninjutsu, preta path absorbs all ninjutsu, that technique gets absorbed.  In order for madara's susanoos to absorb it, they would have had to either cancel or absorb their susanoo so they wouldn't



Turrin said:


> Madara clones had all of Pain's Rinnegan abilities and than some.


and Madara had all of Madara's abilities, yet he got kicked in half by V1 lee.  Does that put V1 lee above Madara or anyone below him?  If his clones don't use pain's abilities then its irrelevant if they have those.



Turrin said:


> We haven't seen Shinra Tensei used as an effective offense at anything other than close range. Onoki really doesn't fight at close range. CST is a different story, which I did account for.


absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.  If banshou tennin can affect things at a great distance I don't see why shinra tensei wouldn't be able to either.  



Turrin said:


> *The Cube Jinton has always appeared faster than the Cone Jinton.* And it wasn't just Madara who couldn't absorb it in time, but everyone of those 25 clones.


what is the bolded based on?  And if madara who was much further away from the technique than his clones were couldn't absorb it in time, why would his clones be able to?



Turrin said:


> There is no reason why Madara using clones would lower his speed/reaction time, that has never been the case and simply is not how clones work. So there is no reason to assume this, but to downplay Onoki unfairly.


But there is reasons why madara's clones using susanoo would lower the speed at which he can switch and start to use preta path as that's what the manga alluded to being the reason why his clones didn't simply absorb the jinton despite surviving it for 2 panels.


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## Trojan (Oct 5, 2013)

Pain wins, but I don't think it's a stomp! @.@


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## Ersa (Oct 5, 2013)

I'd like to add the Paths are much stronger than mere clones. Deva has city-island level firepower through Chou Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. Preta Path can protect them from Jinton, the paths are fast enough to handle most Kage levels in taijutsu. Not to mention insane combos like BT + Soul Rip can be performed. Asura can blow Onoki out of the sky with missile barrage.

Onoki gets decimated by Deva + Preta alone; let alone all 6.


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## Bonly (Oct 5, 2013)

Pain should win more times then not. Asura path shooting missiles+lasers, Preta path to help absorb Jinton, Deva path to take away Onoki's flight advantage, and Animal path to create distractions, Pain just has to many counters for Onoki's moveset. Onoki and really only win if he touched every path and used his weighted jutsu but I don't see that happening more times then not against Pain and the linked vision.


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## Lawrence777 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bansho Tennin is a more powerful technique than anything Onoki had to deal with against the madara clones.

Pain can literally just pull him into a missile barrage from another pain. Honestly, it wouldn't be that bad of a stomp without Bansho Tennin(which is a very frequent go-to move Pain used IC).

With Bansho Tennin though pain won't even have any difficulty.


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## Turrin (Oct 5, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> First off you don't even know if they can use all the rinnegan paths, and secondly it doesn't matter if they have the same power if they don't use them.


1. Logically they should have these powers (and it is suggested that they can use the powers since Madara mentions them being able to use HG Realm)
2. The fact that they didn't use them should tell us that Kishi doesn't think they would (or should) make a difference against the Jutsu they were facing from Onoki.



> Naruto's SM clone didn't have help, when it entered SM it told everyone to just stand back and it beat sandaime raikage on its own. and it's irrelevant if SM Naruto's clone had help as your A>B>C logic ignores the stipulations of the fight. If you want to bring in stipulations, then those susanoos are much bigger targets and none of those clones were using paths of pain powers.


The clone had help getting into SM and getting the intel on Sandiame Raikage. If Dat-Clone started in SM and had intel, I don't doubt that he could beat 1 Path of Pain. Except a (focused) Deva Realm.

A>B>C logic does not ignore the stipulations of help in the fight, because than it's no longer A>B>C. It's A+C+B > D.



> And it doesn't have to defeat 25 sandaime raikages since that's not the comparison you are making, you are saying since oonoki defeated 5 susanoos madara clones and each are stronger than pain's bodies, then he beats 5 pain bodies as well. That's straight up A>B>C logic oonoki > 5 susanoos > 5 pain bodies.


Actually my argument was that since Onoki beat those 5 he probably won't get raped and since he beat 25, the chances of him being owned are almost non-existent. But hey if "dat-clone" solo'd 5 Sandaime Raikages, than I'd have no problem believing "dat"-clone would beat 5 Pain Realms.



> because naruto wouldn't have noticed his weight decreasing to almost nothing.


Naruto could have noticed, we never got his thoughts on the whole thing. How else would we explain Onoki's ability to lift the meteor or turtle island, if he can only weight alter what he's directly touching. The meteor being made of tons of different rocks and the Turtle aside from itself having shit ton of heavy objects resting on-top of it?



> well oonoki is a pretty uncool guy considering he could have solod all 25 susanoo clones with his weighted technique instead of allowing them to ravage mei and gaara and impale tsunade with giant swords who knows how many times.


Or Onoki after doing all the other shit in that battle didn't have enough charka left to weight alter all 25 Madara clones. 



> In every instance oonoki has used that weighted technique in battle, he had to be directly in contact with what he touched.


This is not true. When Onoki weight altered Gaara's sand he didn't just alter the sand he was touching, but vast quantity more. When Onok altered turtle island he didn't have to touch every separate object or person on the island. When Onoki altered the meteor he didn't have to touch every rock that made up the meteor.

But hey if you want to believe Onoki was able to touch each Susano'o-Wielding Madara clone while under fire from all 5 of them, that just makes Onoki seem even more capable, and I don't see doing the same to Pain Paths being an issue for him, than ether.



> weight alteration is a ninjutsu, preta path absorbs all ninjutsu, that technique gets absorbed.


Weight alteration causes a physical difference in the body. We've never seen HG Realm be able to absorb something like that. And even if he could HG realm would have to make physical contact with the Pain Realms body while using Fujutsu Kyuuin, which would mean HG realm would also absorb that realms chakra, which would fuck that realm over nonetheless.



> In order for madara's susanoos to absorb it, they would have had to either cancel or absorb their susanoo so they wouldn't


So they are better off Just standing their motionless and unable to do anything?



> and Madara had all of Madara's abilities, yet he got kicked in half by V1 lee. Does that put V1 lee above Madara or anyone below him? If his clones don't use pain's abilities then its irrelevant if they have those.


Lee had the help of the entire alliance to get in that close to Madara. So yes Lee + entire alliance hopped up on Kyuubi chakra are more than realistically strong enough to land that blow on Madara. Does that make them stronger than Madara, well not really because when talking Edo Madara he's inherently an Edo Tensei, so he doesn't die from that blow. But i'm more than willing to believe that Lee + alliance + Kyuubi chakra would demolish Pain Rikudo that's for sure. 



> absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. If banshou tennin can affect things at a great distance I don't see why shinra tensei wouldn't be able to either.


Dude Shinra Tensei can effect objects from far distances, but once Pain starts using a Shinra Tensei that powerful, it's starts becoming what we typically consider CST. Which again is something I accounted for. Normal Shinra Tensei has never been shown to deal much damage unless used in close quarters. 

BT is a totally different Jutsu and really hasn't been used over that large of distances ether (again unless the users starts pumping a great deal of power behind it, at which point we get Madara meteors probably?).



> what is the bolded based on?


It's based on the fact that when Onoki uses the Cone form we usually get panels of him straining to form that shape. While the cube was pulled appeared much faster in both cases where it was used. Also the very fact that Madara could react in time to Onoki using the cone, but couldn't react in time to Onoki using the cube. 



> And if madara who was much further away from the technique than his clones were couldn't absorb it in time, why would his clones be able to?


I never said I expected them to. I was just noting the clones who were closer couldn't react at all. Madara who was further away could react to the attack somewhat. Onoki even thinking the attack would work when he knew Madara can absorb techniques. All fits with the fact that the cube Onoki pulled out was too fast for Madara to use HG realm in time to absorb it.



> But there is reasons why madara's clones using susanoo would lower the speed at which he can switch and start to use preta path as that's what the manga alluded to being the reason why his clones didn't simply absorb the jinton despite surviving it for 2 panels.


Honestly even with deactivating Susano'o first I'd expect the Madara clones to still have better reaction than HG Realm. Also I got to check a clear trans on that as the Naruto-base one is worded really bad. However ether way it really doesn't matter because the real Madara did not have Susano'o activated and still could not pull HG realm out before getting half of his body atomized.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This isn't a stomp.



This is absolutely a stomp.



> Onoki defeated 5 Madara clones while exhausted who are individually stronger than any single path of pain bar (Focused) Deva Realm.



Tendou could wipe out all 25 of them with one move. As a whole, Pain would be able to handle five of Madara's Moku Bunshin like child's play.



> Than when recharged by Tsunade he demolished 25 Madara clones.



The operative clause being "recharged by Tsunade."



> If Madara clones couldn't avoid being super weighted even when wielding Stage 3 Susano'o, how are are Pain Realms going to far any differently.



Because they are not watered-down Madaras using a single Jutsu that doubles as a massive target; Pain actually makes use of his Rinnegan powers.

Also, as others have pointed out, Madara was fucking around in that fight.



> Once super weighted Animal, Human, Naraka, and Asura are pretty much defenseless against any attack Onoki pulls out after that. HG Realm could defend certain attacks, but we saw Onoki pull out Jinton faster than any of the Madara clones and even the real Madara (before his body was partially vaporized) could pull out HG Realm, so I don't see HG realm being able to defend Onoki's more powerful Jinton attacks. Deva is really the only challenge here for Onok, but using BT on Onoki would not be a good idea since drawing him in close would be an open invitation for Onoki to turn him into stone. ST will keep Deva safe for awhile, but it won't work so well in the long term do to the cool down time. With super weighting Deva is probably not escaping to get closer to Nagato to use CT, though if he did Large Jinton could probably bust CT regardless.
> 
> CST is one option here, though this requires the deactivation of the other Realms and time for Nagato to focus his chakra to Deva. Deva also can't rely on flight to keep him safe here since Onoki is the superior flier. So most likely he'd go down before he got a chance to launch the attack. Though he could indeed win that way.
> 
> ...



No.

Oonoki gets stomped effortlessly by Pain.

He only grazed Madara with Jinton because Madara wanted to expose Hashirama's face to lower the five Kages' morale. Madara said this explicitly right after casually nullifying the Tsuchikage's Jinton with Gakidou.

Banshou Tenin draws him out of flight and into any attack of Pain's choosing, or Shinra Tensei just blows him away in one move.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This is absolutely a stomp.


Your just all buthurt because I said Mu & Onoki can beat "Sick" Itachi & Danzo-Fight Sasuke. Literally if that thread had no happened and someone instead made a thread about 5 (or 25 Madara clones) vs Pain you'd be in there spouting your normal overhype of the Sharingan nonsense and probably be saying that a single Madara clone would beat Pain, knowing how you've evaluated techniques (Madara clones can use) in the past. But because I pointed out Onoki defeating the Madara clones as a reason why "sick" Itachi is not leagues above him, the Madara clones now have to be fodder. Give me a break Niku.



> Tendou could wipe out all 25 of them with one move. As a whole,



The only move Deva Realm has that might be able to take them out is CST, depending on how in essence a wall of Madara's Stage 3 Susano'o hold up against that. However Madara has knowledge of CST and will see a ton of chakra gathering to Deva Realm as well as the other bodies de-activating. He will know something big is coming and seek to interrupt Deva's charging process.Considering this Deva would most likely get demolished by the 25 Clones before he had a chance to use CST. 



> Pain would be able to handle five of Madara's Moku Bunshin like child's play.


Oh spar me the BS. Each Madara clone can use all of Rinnegan Jutsu, Mokuton, and EMS Techniques. On-top of the fact that the Madara's clones basic stats and basic Jutsu sets should be superior to any Pain Realms. On-top of that these clones have a great deal of knowledge on Pain's abilities and because there are 5 Madara clones Pain would not have the massive numerical advantage he usually has in combat, which would allow the Madara clones to spilt the attention of the Pain bodies up.

Not a single thing indicates that Pain would easily defeat 5 Madara clones.



> The operative clause being "recharged by Tsunade."


Yeah I agree and stated he was recharged back to health. It's not like I said that an exhausted Onoki is defeating 25 Madara clones



> Because they are not watered-down Madaras using a single Jutsu that doubles as a massive target; Pain actually makes use of his Rinnegan powers.


For someone who has wanked the shit out Susnao'o throughout the years, I find it absolutely hilarious that suddenly 25 EMS level Susano'o's is than treated like fodder and in-fact Susano'o is suddenly treated as hinderance  The Madara clones were able to use any of the Rinnegan Powers, yet Kishi had Onoki defeat them regardless. 



> Also, as others have pointed out, Madara was fucking around in that fight.


Never denied that. But the thing is using 25 Clones was fucking around for Madara, he's just that strong. However it's not like the Clones themselves were holding back. They were all using Stage 3 EMS Susano'o, on-top of other techniques for fucks sake.



> He only grazed Madara with Jinton because Madara wanted to expose Hashirama's face to lower the five Kages' morale. Madara said this explicitly right after casually nullifying the Tsuchikage's Jinton with Gakidou.


Onoki blew half of Madara's body off with Giant Cube Jinton, which is the one i'm referring to.



> Banshou Tenin draws him out of flight and into any attack of Pain's choosing


Assuming BT reached Onoki's height in the middle of flight, he can just throw a stone golem in-front of him stop himself from being pulled in. Super weighting himself would also likely stop the pull from being strong enough to drag him in. Or depending on the situation being pulled in could be advantageous to Onoki since he can use that opportunity to turn that Pain Realm to stone or deploy a quick Cube Jinton.



> Shinra Tensei just blows him away in one move.


Normal Shinra Tensei would not reach a flying Onoki. CST could work as I said in my post. However that relies on Pain getting the chance for Deva to charge the attack, which would be difficult against Onoki to say the least.


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## Jagger (Oct 6, 2013)

This is a stomp regardless from which perspective you see it. Onoki's clones don't really work considering the shared vision ability that allows Pain to see one and each moves of Onoki. His summons alone will keep Onoki busy for a while. Sure, he can wipe them out with a Jinton, but it is dangerous to stand there while charging the attack while the other 5 Path are on his back trying to mutilate him in tiny little pieces.

In fact, if Onoki tries to aim for a summon or another path, he gets attacked by the bird and being dragged in by Deva Path while Asura Path literally blows him. It's just too many scenarios for Onoki that he can't handle at the same time. It is even doubtful that he can use Jinton with his golem clones considering his chakra levels and his current age. 

Attacks like CST and CT are not even needed in this fight. In fact, if Onoki reaches a distance where Pain's attacks can't hurt him, it totally backfires him considering Jinton can be avoided by them and the only one wasting chakra will be the old man instead of the six paths evading his attacks.


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## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> 1. Logically they should have these powers (and it is suggested that they can use the powers since Madara mentions them being able to use HG Realm)
> 2. The fact that they didn't use them should tell us that Kishi doesn't think they would (or should) make a difference against the Jutsu they were facing from Onoki.


#1 is agreeable
#2 isn't unless you believe that in every fight that a person decides not to use a jutsu, that's kishi's way of saying that those jutsu would somehow be inneffective



Turrin said:


> The clone had help getting into SM and getting the intel on Sandiame Raikage. If Dat-Clone started in SM and had intel, I don't doubt that he could beat 1 Path of Pain. Except a (focused) Deva Realm.


irrelevant if the clone had to get help because sm clones start off in SM.  Intel is irrelevant as well since that's simply a stipulation the same as saying if madara's clones don't use pain's jutsus or mokuton and only use V3 susanoos.



Turrin said:


> A>B>C logic does not ignore the stipulations of help in the fight, because than it's no longer A>B>C. It's A+C+B > D.


but it was a 1 vs 1 fight between naruto's clone vs sandaime raikage, any help came before they fought and before naruto's clone was in sm.



Turrin said:


> *Actually my argument was that since Onoki beat those 5 he probably won't get raped* and since he beat 25, the chances of him being owned are almost non-existent. But hey if "dat-clone" solo'd 5 Sandaime Raikages, than I'd have no problem believing "dat"-clone would beat 5 Pain Realms.


Once again you attack the strawman of datclone solod 5 sandaime raikages.  I've said that datclone solod 1, then SM naruto who can use much much more than one would stomp pain.

and the bolded is not the conclusion you reach with A>B>C logic, the conclusion you reach is that Oonoki easily beats 5 if he beat a much much superior 5 with susanoo and mokuton.



Turrin said:


> Naruto could have noticed, we never got his thoughts on the whole thing. How else would we explain Onoki's ability to lift the meteor or turtle island, if he can only weight alter what he's directly touching. The meteor being made of tons of different rocks and the Turtle aside from itself having shit ton of heavy objects resting on-top of it?


It's simply a plot hole.  the meteor is treated as singular object, if you want to get technical gaara's whole gourd shouldn't have been lightened only whatever touched oonoki's hand.

You really think that it's more plausible that oonoki can touch the ground and turn every thing within an islands radius heavy or light despite going out of his way to touch only the direct object in order to do so and never doing that in battle?  Despite naruto being completely oblivious to his weight turning as light as a feather?  Despite giant blocks of concrete still falling to the *ground at normal speeds and slamming on the ground with normal weight?*



Turrin said:


> Or Onoki after doing all the other shit in that battle didn't have enough charka left to weight alter all 25 Madara clones.


Because oonoki looked even remotely tired when madara brought out his clones.
Because changing the weight of an entire island and then carrying it hundreds of miles is less chakra taxing than doing to a much much smaller area.



Turrin said:


> This is not true. When Onoki weight altered Gaara's sand he didn't just alter the sand he was touching, but vast quantity more. When Onok altered turtle island he didn't have to touch every separate object or person on the island. When Onoki altered the meteor he didn't have to touch every rock that made up the meteor.


Oonoki said he altered the sand offpanel, which means he touched the sand and the sand is treated as a continuous object.  He didn't alter the weights of objects that were distinct to the the sand like the people on the sand or the rocks around it.

Turtle island is simply a plot hole outlier as it not only would allow oonoki to instantly defeat almost anyone without preta path which is not something the manga portrays, but it has unexplainable things such as naruto not noticing a difference in weight himself and the blocks he's trying to stack logically being light as a feather.




Turrin said:


> But hey if you want to believe Onoki was able to touch each Susano'o-Wielding Madara clone while under fire from all 5 of them, that just makes Onoki seem even more capable, and I don't see doing the same to Pain Paths being an issue for him, than ether.


Why would that make him seem more capable?  Those susanoos don't have large AoE attacks like pain and are huge targets.  Oonoki has things like the rock golem and rock clones to distract them with in order to just touch them.

He's not going to be able to do that against someone who uses shinra tensei or someone who has high AoE attacks like asura or someone who has shared vision or someone who is human-sized.




Turrin said:


> Weight alteration causes a physical difference in the body. We've never seen HG Realm be able to absorb something like that. And even if he could HG realm would have to make physical contact with the Pain Realms body while using Fujutsu Kyuuin, which would mean HG realm would also absorb that realms chakra, which would fuck that realm over nonetheless.


and what is that physical difference caused by?  Chakra, or a ninjutsu applied to their body.  Preta absorbs that off of them.  And no, preta absorbing that realms chakra would mean jack squat as nagato is the one that constantly supplies each realm with chakra.




Turrin said:


> So they are better off Just standing their motionless and unable to do anything?


considering they'd be defenseless if they had to absorb their own susanoo, yes.



Turrin said:


> Lee had the help of the entire alliance to get in that close to Madara. So yes Lee + entire alliance hopped up on Kyuubi chakra are more than realistically strong enough to land that blow on Madara. Does that make them stronger than Madara, well not really because when talking Edo Madara he's inherently an Edo Tensei, so he doesn't die from that blow. But i'm more than willing to believe that Lee + alliance + Kyuubi chakra would demolish Pain Rikudo that's for sure.


Nope, the comparison would be valid if its Madara + Obito + Juubi vs lee and alliance.  However it was only lee who attacked madara, no one else and madara was cut in half which spells defeat for himself.

So at whatever distance lee began to attack madara, it was just lee vs madara, lee had zero assistance and madara wasn't even able to put up a defense or even raise his arms to block.  So it's still V1 lee > Madara because lee solod madara.



Turrin said:


> Dude Shinra Tensei can effect objects from far distances, but once Pain starts using a Shinra Tensei that powerful, it's starts becoming what we typically consider CST. Which again is something I accounted for. Normal Shinra Tensei has never been shown to deal much damage unless used in close quarters.


CST isn't simply a long ranged shinra tensei, it's a more powerful and greater AoE than a normal shinra tensei.  Where are you getting that normal shinra tenseis don't deal much unless in CQC?  



Turrin said:


> BT is a totally different Jutsu and really hasn't been used over that large of distances ether (again unless the users starts pumping a great deal of power behind it, at which point we get Madara meteors probably?).


he pulled a boulder from far away to attack kn6, he pulled a giant rock from who knows how far to attack naruto.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> #2 isn't unless you believe that in every fight that a person decides not to use a jutsu, that's kishi's way of saying that those jutsu would somehow be inneffective


Not ineffective, but less effective than the Jutsu the person is utilizing. You have to remember Kishi is writing the story to give us a picture of the characters strength. He would not have had Onoki defeat those Madara clones, if he didn't consider Onoki stronger than them. 




> irrelevant if the clone had to get help because sm clones start off in SM. Intel is irrelevant as well since that's simply a stipulation the same as saying if madara's clones don't use pain's jutsus or mokuton and only use V3 susanoos.


Not using a Jutsu, is not the same thing as someone else feeding you intel. Because someone feeding you intel relies on that persons help.



> ut it was a 1 vs 1 fight between naruto's clone vs sandaime raikage, any help came before they fought and before naruto's clone was in sm.


"dat" clone only won due to the intel Hachibi provided him (& Inoichi/Dodai connecting him telepathically to Hachibi). So whether you want to call that 1v1 or not, you must at least admit that "dat"-clone had intel telepathically being fed to him. 

And again I do believe that SM "dat" clone could indeed beat any Pain Realm (Sans-Focused Deva), 1v1 with intel on that realm being fed to him. Is this something you'd disagree with? If so how would one the realms beat "dat" clone w/ intel?



> Once again you attack the strawman of datclone solod 5 sandaime raikages. I've said that datclone solod 1, then SM naruto who can use much much more than one would stomp pain.


The problem with this is fighting 5 is different than fighting 1. With 5 on the field, if one Sandaime Raikage goes down to the tactic "dat" clone used, the others are going to become aware of that tactic and it will not be as easy to pull off against them a second time. Additionally historically the problem with SM for Naruto has been maintain the mode throughout the battle. If he has divide his chakra up between multiple clones, I don't see him being able to maintain SM for the time it would take to defeat 5 Sandaime Raikages.

If Naruto had the advantage of starting in SM, Intel being fed to him, somehow his SM would indefinitely last throughout the entire battle, and he was able to take on each Sandaime Raikage in individual 1v1 battles, where the other Raikages could not observe these battles; than I think he could defeat the 5 Sandaime Raikages. But at that point were not only talking about a completely made up version of Naruto, but also a much different scenario than in the case of Onoki who fought all 5 Madara clones at once. 

However in the case of the Pain Realms I'd be more than willing to believe that an Infinite SM Naruto w/ Intel fed to him would be able to beat all 5 of them. Essentially we saw SM Naruto was capable of that in the manga, with his only issue throughout that fight being that SM keep running out & the inclusion of the final 6th Path Deva Realm. 



> and the bolded is not the conclusion you reach with A>B>C logic, the conclusion you reach is that Oonoki easily beats 5 if he beat a much much superior 5 with susanoo and mokuton.


How easily would depend on which 5. For instance if Deva Realm was part of the 5, it wouldn't be as easy, since when the other 4 go down, Nagato can than focus his chakra to Deva Realm allowing him to use CST (or if close enough CT); also potentially Kuchiyose GM if he can control it like Obito can. The (Focused) Deva realm was always something I stated Onoki would have a much harder time with, especially if he used chakra first defeating other paths. Also A/B/C logic doesn't apply with (focused) Deva as the clones never displayed the chakra to utilize things on the scale of CT, CST, or potentially GM. 

However if Deva isn't part of the 5 than I don't see Onoki having extremely high difficult with the other 5. Though one should note I never said Onoki defeated the 5 Clones easily to begin with. 



> It's simply a plot hole. the meteor is treated as singular object, if you want to get technical gaara's whole gourd shouldn't have been lightened only whatever touched oonoki's hand.


I don't think it's a plot-hole is that great of a counter argument.



> You really think that it's more plausible that oonoki can touch the ground and turn every thing within an islands radius heavy or light despite going out of his way to touch only the direct object in order to do so and never doing that in battle?


Well here there are 2 possibilities. Ether:

1) Onoki at full chakra can weight alter everything in an islands radius, by touching the ground as his feats would suggest

2) Onoki can only weight control what he directly touches. However than he only lightened the Turtle itself, which means all the additional topography on the turtles back was normal weight. This means that Onoki would have to have the physical strength to support the weight of all that additional topography. That would place Onoki's physical strength far beyond even Tsunade. 

Also in the case of the Susano'o-Madara-clones, than Onoki would have had to touch & weight alter each one of them individually, while simultaneously defending their combine assault.

1 honestly seems more rational to me, because Kishi hasn't depicted Onoki as some strength demon. However regardless of which scenario we accept, Onoki should still be able to pull off weight alteration when up against 5 Pains, if he managed to do so when up against the 5 more powerful Madara clones.



> Despite naruto being completely oblivious to his weight turning as light as a feather? Despite giant blocks of concrete still falling to the ground at normal speeds and slamming on the ground with normal weight?


The island wasn't even being weight altered by Onoki in ch 515 anymore, since the war had already began and Onoki had left the island to goto the front-lines. 



> Because oonoki looked even remotely tired when madara brought out his clones.


He looked plenty tired to me and he had already used quite a few techniques in that battle, including a very massive Jinton beam.



> Because changing the weight of an entire island and then carrying it hundreds of miles is less chakra taxing than doing to a much much smaller area.


If Onoki was at full chakra he could obviously weight alter an area smaller than the island, no one is disputing that. However in this case Onoki had already used a great many techniques and been fighting Madara for quite some time.



> Why would that make him seem more capable? Those susanoos don't have large AoE attacks like pain and are huge targets. Oonoki has things like the rock golem and rock clones to distract them with in order to just touch them.


Because 5 Madara clones > 5 Pain Realms. Madara clones have all the same abilities as Pain and what AOE attacks do the Pain Realms have that is greater than the capabilities of 5 EMS-Stage 3 Susano'o, who can all throw Magatama creating massive AOE that way, on-top of the fact that they are massive themselves and can all attack with a total of 10 massive swords at any given time?

Unless your referring to (focused) Deva Realm, which doesn't apply to what I was referring to my original post. As I talked separately about the danger of those techniques.



> He's not going to be able to do that against someone who uses shinra tensei or someone who has high AoE attacks like asura or someone who has shared vision or someone who is human-sized.


Deva Realm is the only one that would give him trouble as he is the only path that may be more difficult to touch w/o being torn to pieces than a EMS-Stage 3-Susano'o wielding Madara clone. All the rest would pose less difficult. Madara clones had shared vision amongst themselves as they all had Rinnegan and on-top of that they also had Sharingan prediction. 



> and what is that physical difference caused by? Chakra, or a ninjutsu applied to their body. Preta absorbs that off of them.


Their Physical weight is altered. We have never seen HG realm absorb the after effects of someone already hit and effected by a Jutsu. It's not like HG Realm can absorb the effects of FRS after it's already vaporized a path.

You'd have a case for Naraka Realm, not HG Realm, restoring the paths. 



> considering they'd be defenseless if they had to absorb their own susanoo, yes.


How would they be defenseless, they would still have all their other Jutsu and HG Realm itself to defend. You can't sit here and say that's worse than being completely immobile and useless.



> Nope, the comparison would be valid if its Madara + Obito + Juubi vs lee and alliance. However it was only lee who attacked madara, no one else and madara was cut in half which spells defeat for himself.


1. Yes the fight should be considered as Madara + Obito controlling Juubi vs the alliance, because that's what the battle was. There is no instance of Kyuubi Shroud Lee vs Madara 1v1. Madara was focusing his efforts on controlling the Juubi. The alliance countered that allowing Lee to launch his attack.

2. Edo Madara is not defeated when cut in half.



> So at whatever distance lee began to attack madara, it was just lee vs madara, lee had zero assistance and madara wasn't even able to put up a defense or even raise his arms to block. So it's still V1 lee > Madara because lee solod madara.


The defense Madara put up was the Juubi attacks that the alliance countered. 



> CST isn't simply a long ranged shinra tensei, it's a more powerful and greater AoE than a normal shinra tensei.


I never said CST wasn't better in those ways.



> Where are you getting that normal shinra tenseis don't deal much unless in CQC?


Normal Shinra Tensei does not reach beyond close-range. We've never seen Deva casually pull out a Shinra Tensei that hit enemies from Mid-Long range. The only time he has produced such large shinra tensei is when Nagato was focusing all his power on him specifically.



> he pulled a boulder from far away to attack kn6, he pulled a giant rock from who knows how far to attack naruto.


Huh!? He was at point blank range when he used the boulder against KN6:
 doing absolute shit to the same appendages.

And he logically pulled the boulder from the shattered rock wall behind him.

In the case of KCM Naruto he pulled the large rock from the rive/creek that was right next to them. If you look you can still see there is water on the rock:
 doing absolute shit to the same appendages.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Your just all buthurt because I said Mu & Onoki can beat "Sick" Itachi & Danzo-Fight Sasuke.



Why would your mistakes upset me?



> Literally if that thread had no happened and someone instead made a thread about 5 (or 25 Madara clones) vs Pain you'd be in there spouting your normal overhype of the Sharingan nonsense and probably be saying that a single Madara clone would beat Pain, knowing how you've evaluated techniques (Madara clones can use) in the past.



Now you're just imposing yourself as my surrogate and making up an argument I've never endorsed.

It's pretty obvious that the Madara clones are weaker than Pain if five of them couldn't even kill any of the Kage (except Mei).



> But because I pointed out Onoki defeating the Madara clones as a reason why "sick" Itachi is not leagues above him, the Madara clones now have to be fodder.



The Madara clones are fodder because they couldn't beat any of the Kage when it was 5-to-1 (except Mei).



> Give me a break Niku.



No. First you were wrong, then you went and had the audacity to try to impose yourself as my representative to make me look wrong. There will be no breaks for you.



> The only move Deva Realm has that might be able to take them out is CST, depending on how in essence a wall of Madara's Stage 3 Susano'o hold up against that. However Madara has knowledge of CST and will see a ton of chakra gathering to Deva Realm as well as the other bodies de-activating. He will know something big is coming and seek to interrupt Deva's charging process.Considering this Deva would most likely get demolished by the 25 Clones before he had a chance to use CST.



Madara's clones have no way to stop Tendou from charging Shinra Tensei; they can't fly and they weren't shown to use any ranged attacks.

Gakidou alone would absorb the Susano'o from any clone that attacked it, allowing the other bodies to rush in and stab. Or Chibaku Tensei would wipe out all the clones in one move, Susano'o or not.

The clones lack durability feats that indicate they could withstand Shinra Tensei on the same scale as the one Pain used to flatten Konoha, so that option is on the table as well.



> Oh spar me the BS. Each Madara clone can use all of Rinnegan Jutsu, Mokuton, and EMS Techniques.



Evidence, please? From what we saw, the only Jutsu Oonoki (or any of the Kage) had to contend with was an extremely watered-down Susano'o.



> On-top of the fact that the Madara's clones basic stats and basic Jutsu sets should be superior to any Pain Realms.



Based on what?



> On-top of that these clones have a great deal of knowledge on Pain's abilities and because there are 5 Madara clones Pain would not have the massive numerical advantage he usually has in combat, which would allow the Madara clones to spilt the attention of the Pain bodies up.



That would be so much more effective if Tendou or Gakidou alone couldn't defeat them all with a single Jutsu.



> Not a single thing indicates that Pain would easily defeat 5 Madara clones.



"Easily" may be overstating it. But Pain is able to absorb the only Jutsu they use, able to generate an attack with a yield far greater than anything they've been shown to withstand, and able to suck them up into a gravity well and bury them under an enormous volume of debris they have no way to escape.



> Yeah I agree and stated he was recharged back to health. It's not like I said that an exhausted Onoki is defeating 25 Madara clones



Nothing indicates that Oonoki would be able to replicate the feat he performed with Tsunade without Tsunade.



> For someone who has wanked the shit out Susnao'o throughout the years, I find it absolutely hilarious that suddenly 25 EMS level Susano'o's is than treated like fodder and in-fact Susano'o is suddenly treated as hinderance



These are not Susano'o- they are Susano'o clones. You don't need five Susano'o to kill someone like Mei.



> The Madara clones were able to use any of the Rinnegan Powers, yet Kishi had Onoki defeat them regardless.



Incidentally, Kishimoto didn't bring any of these Rinnegan powers into play, for reasons unexplained. So Oonoki just disabled 5 Susano'o clones.



> Never denied that. But the thing is using 25 Clones was fucking around for Madara, he's just that strong. However it's not like the Clones themselves were holding back. They were all using Stage 3 EMS Susano'o, on-top of other techniques for fucks sake.



If the clones weren't holding back, then I really don't understand why you are choosing to go down with this ship. All they used was Susano'o and that wasn't sufficient to defeat any of the Kage (except Mei).



> Onoki blew half of Madara's body off with Giant Cube Jinton, which is the one i'm referring to.



IIRC, Madara's incomplete Perfect Susano'o blocked that.



> Assuming BT reached Onoki's height in the middle of flight, he can just throw a stone golem in-front of him stop himself from being pulled in. Super weighting himself would also likely stop the pull from being strong enough to drag him in. Or depending on the situation being pulled in could be advantageous to Onoki since he can use that opportunity to turn that Pain Realm to stone or deploy a quick Cube Jinton.



Gakidou takes care of Jinton and increasing his weight when the enemy is using a Jutsu similar to gravity to pull him in is probably not a good idea for Oonoki. I also find it unlikely that Oonoki, given his old age and back problems, would be able to perform a Jutsu after being sharply yanked out of the air. Fukasaku and Sage Naruto were helpless; all Kakashi could do was throw a chain to stop himself. Look at how KCM Naruto reacted. Oonoki's going to be spitting stone golems and accurately firing Jinton? Doubtful.



> Normal Shinra Tensei would not reach a flying Onoki. CST could work as I said in my post.



Fights typically start at conversation distance, so yes, normal Shinra Tensei would work and Oonoki would probably be incapacitated by something like that.

A larger Shinra Tensei would reduce Oonoki to particles even his own Jinton couldn't deconstruct.



> However that relies on Pain getting the chance for Deva to charge the attack, which would be difficult against Onoki to say the least.



It would be very easy against Oonoki; Gakidou nullifies Jinton and then Pain blasts or pulls him out of the sky. Other bodies vandalize him. The match ends in five seconds flat.


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## Kai (Oct 6, 2013)

Heavily struggling to agree with the idea that 25 Susano'o clones > Six Paths of Pain considering Deva Path can wipe them all out with a single attack.

Turrin, Onoki is one of my favorite characters and I'd be one of the last people to underrate his prowess, but he looks rather hopeless against Pain. Their skills are even more diverse than his and more importantly their diversity almost completely _counters_ his diversity.

Preta Path and Deva Path is already an enormous hurdle for Onoki, perfect skill sets against his ultimate ninjutsu and flight advantage.


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## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Not ineffective, but less effective than the Jutsu the person is utilizing. You have to remember Kishi is writing the story to give us a picture of the characters strength. He would not have had Onoki defeat those Madara clones, if he didn't consider Onoki stronger than them.


So you are saying that subjective character portrayal > feats? 

Does kishi having naruto not use any ninjutsu when he fights mokuryu portray that ninjutsu would have been less effective against the dragon than just wrestling with it?

Does kishi having Naruto not use shunshin against obito portray that not using his pseudo FTG speed would not be as effective as just running?

Does kishi having Bee block shuriken with his tentacles portray naruto not being able to dodge those shuriken?

Does kishi having madara and obito sit around and do nothing while the alliance makes cement portray that sitting around and doing nothing would me more effective than lets say eradicating everyone with a laserdama?

Does Kishi have bee use a punch on GM, Naruto us a rasengan on it, and naruto hit Juubito with a rasengan mean that he's trying to tell us that a bijuudama or FRS would have been less effective?






Turrin said:


> Not using a Jutsu, is not the same thing as someone else feeding you intel. Because someone feeding you intel relies on that persons help.


naruto wasn't fed intel while he was in sennin mode, intel is simply a stipulation unless the person who's giving you intel actually helps you fight, then they aren't part of the A>B>C logic.



Turrin said:


> "dat" clone only won due to the intel Hachibi provided him (& Inoichi/Dodai connecting him telepathically to Hachibi). So whether you want to call that 1v1 or not, you must at least admit that "dat"-clone had intel telepathically being fed to him.


irrelevant if he had intel or not all of that came before he went into SM, the hachibi didn't directly help him in the fight and if you want to say naruto got help because he had intel, then everyone in the manga who doesn't start off a fight with zero knowledge had help.



Turrin said:


> And again I do believe that SM "dat" clone could indeed beat any Pain Realm (Sans-Focused Deva), 1v1 with intel on that realm being fed to him. Is this something you'd disagree with? If so how would one the realms beat "dat" clone w/ intel?


That's not the what I didn't disagree with, I disagreed with SM Naruto being able to stomp pein since he can make tons of SM clones who only need a single rasengan to beat Sandaime raikage.



Turrin said:


> The problem with this is fighting 5 is different than fighting 1. With 5 on the field, if one Sandaime Raikage goes down to the tactic "dat" clone used, the others are going to become aware of that tactic and it will not be as easy to pull off against them a second time. Additionally historically the problem with SM for Naruto has been maintain the mode throughout the battle. If he has divide his chakra up between multiple clones, I don't see him being able to maintain SM for the time it would take to defeat 5 Sandaime Raikages.


irrelevant, stipulations like sandaime raikage gaining knowledge is a featbased argument.  With your portrayal argument it doesn't matter what they decide to use in a fight the only thing that matters is the outcome of the fight.



Turrin said:


> If Naruto had the advantage of starting in SM, Intel being fed to him, somehow his SM would indefinitely last throughout the entire battle, and he was able to take on each Sandaime Raikage in individual 1v1 battles, where the other Raikages could not observe these battles; than I think he could defeat the 5 Sandaime Raikages. But at that point were not only talking about a completely made up version of Naruto, but also a much different scenario than in the case of Onoki who fought all 5 Madara clones at once.


SM Naruto obviously starts out in SM, intel doesn't need to be fed to him since he already has manga knowledge on sandaime raikage, naruto doesn't need SM to last indefinitely since he defeated Sandaime raikagei with a single rasengan in just a few panels.  



Turrin said:


> However in the case of the Pain Realms I'd be more than willing to believe that an Infinite SM Naruto w/ Intel fed to him would be able to beat all 5 of them. Essentially we saw SM Naruto was capable of that in the manga, with his only issue throughout that fight being that SM keep running out & the inclusion of the final 6th Path Deva Realm.


No, SM Naruto was not getting intel fed to him, that was base naruto once in SM he had none of that, naruto doesn't need to stay in SM indefinitely seeing as it only takes a rasengan to beat sandaime raikage, and by your logic it's not SM Naruto > 5 paths of pain, it's SM Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 paths of pain since just one of his shadow clones > a path.



Turrin said:


> How easily would depend on which 5. For instance if Deva Realm was part of the 5, it wouldn't be as easy, since when the other 4 go down, Nagato can than focus his chakra to Deva Realm allowing him to use CST (or if close enough CT); also potentially Kuchiyose GM if he can control it like Obito can. The (Focused) Deva realm was always something I stated Onoki would have a much harder time with, especially if he used chakra first defeating other paths. Also A/B/C logic doesn't apply with (focused) Deva as the clones never displayed the chakra to utilize things on the scale of CT, CST, or potentially GM.
> 
> However if Deva isn't part of the 5 than I don't see Onoki having extremely high difficult with the other 5. Though one should note I never said Onoki defeated the 5 Clones easily to begin with.


Wait, why wouldn't oonoki have an extremely easy time defeating the 5 if deva path isn't included?  Each madara clone is superior to them in every way, according to you they can use al of pain's techniques and even that 



Turrin said:


> I don't think it's a plot-hole is that great of a counter argument.[/QOUTE]
> It sure is when you consider the alternative things that you'd have to accept.
> 
> 
> ...


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## ueharakk (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The island wasn't even being weight altered by Onoki in ch 515 anymore, since the war had already began and Onoki had left the island to goto the front-lines.


Be the END of ch515 it wasn't being weight altered, but while bee was teaching naruto about stacking blocks oonoki was most definitely flying with it as we see the blocks fell for a second time after the turtle came to rest.



Turrin said:


> He looked plenty tired to me and he had already used quite a few techniques in that battle, including a very massive Jinton beam.
> 
> If Onoki was at full chakra he could obviously weight alter an area smaller than the island, no one is disputing that. However in this case Onoki had already used a great many techniques and been fighting Madara for quite some time.


He was constantly being restored by tsunade throughout the fight, he showed no signs of huffing and puffing or fatigue before engaging the clones and 



Turrin said:


> Because 5 Madara clones > 5 Pain Realms. Madara clones have all the same abilities as Pain and what AOE attacks do the Pain Realms have that is greater than the capabilities of 5 EMS-Stage 3 Susano'o, who can all throw Magatama creating massive AOE that way, on-top of the fact that they are massive themselves and can all attack with a total of 10 massive swords at any given time?


yeah so simply just A>B>C logic which totally disregards any and all abilities of pein and how they'd stack up to oonoki.  Since when did madara's susanoo clones throw magatamas?  Since when did those susanoos dual wield swords?  And none of that comes even remotely close to shinra tenseis AoE crowd control abilities which instantly hits whatever pain wants it to, so no.



Turrin said:


> Deva Realm is the only one that would give him trouble as he is the only path that may be more difficult to touch w/o being torn to pieces than a EMS-Stage 3-Susano'o wielding Madara clone. All the rest would pose less difficult. Madara clones had shared vision amongst themselves as they all had Rinnegan and on-top of that they also had Sharingan prediction.


Why?  Why is deva path the only exception?  Since when do madara's clones have shared vision? Simply having the rinnegan doesn't grant the user shared vision.  



Turrin said:


> Their Physical weight is altered. We have never seen HG realm absorb the after effects of someone already hit and effected by a Jutsu. It's not like HG Realm can absorb the effects of FRS after it's already vaporized a path.
> 
> You'd have a case for Naraka Realm, not HG Realm, restoring the paths.


Well in that case, why didn't oonoki simply one shot madara with weighted rock at the very start of the fight?  Does that mean he couldn't do so?



Turrin said:


> How would they be defenseless, they would still have all their other Jutsu and HG Realm itself to defend. You can't sit here and say that's worse than being completely immobile and useless.


why do you think oonoki is waiting right in front of them instead of helping the other kage out?  



Turrin said:


> 1. Yes the fight should be considered as Madara + Obito controlling Juubi vs the alliance, because that's what the battle was. There is no instance of Kyuubi Shroud Lee vs Madara 1v1. Madara was focusing his efforts on controlling the Juubi. The alliance countered that allowing Lee to launch his attack.


Nope, the fight was clearly madara 1 vs 1 against rock lee.  Lee was the only one who came at madara he started a set distance away from madara,  madara couldn't even react or do anything against him, not even put susanoo up.  All the while madara showed no signs of focusing his efforts on controlling the juubi since he sent the tails at the alliance.




Turrin said:


> 2. Edo Madara is not defeated when cut in half.


Yes he is, the alliance simply didn't take advantage of his defeat in order to seal him.  At worse that means lee beats a living Rinnegan madara.



Turrin said:


> The defense Madara put up was the Juubi attacks that the alliance countered.


er, what?  So you are saying that after the alliance broke through the juubi's tails, madara tried to use the juubi to defend himself from the alliance's attacks?



Turrin said:


> I never said CST wasn't better in those ways.
> 
> 
> Normal Shinra Tensei does not reach beyond close-range. We've never seen Deva casually pull out a Shinra Tensei that hit enemies from Mid-Long range. The only time he has produced such large shinra tensei is when Nagato was focusing all his power on him specifically.


absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.  He's never shown a shinra tensei directed at a target yet fail to hit that target due to the target's range.  And you haven't answered the question about shinra tensei not dealing much damage unless used in CQC.



Turrin said:


> Huh!? He was at point blank range when he used the boulder against KN6:
> *he fought against edo itachi*
> 
> And he logically pulled the boulder from the shattered rock wall behind him.


based on what logic did he pull the boulder from the shattered wall behind him? the boulder is coming from a different direction than the shattered wall, and the rocks we see him create from shattering the wall are not even close to the size of that one.



Turrin said:


> In the case of KCM Naruto he pulled the large rock from the rive/creek that was right next to them. If you look you can still see there is water on the rock:
> *he fought against edo itachi*


sure it's from the river creek, but what part?


----------



## Turrin (Oct 6, 2013)

@Niku

I'm not going to even bother with someone who is going to sit here and argue Susano'o used by Madara clones are magically different than normal Susano'o, despite them possessing the same exact appearance and abilities. That absurdity is where I draw the line. 



Kai said:


> Heavily struggling to agree with the idea that 25 Susano'o clones > Six Paths of Pain considering Deva Path can wipe them all out with a single attack.


How can Deva Path wipe them all out? 

I don't see what there is to struggle with. The Madara clones could each use the 6-Paths abilities, Mokuton, and EMS abilities, and there base skills are better than the 6 paths. Additionally there were 25 of them vs the 6 Paths of Pain. Do you really think that the 6 Paths could defeat; Tsunade, Gaara, Mei, and Yondaime Raikage? The 25 Clones were beating all 4 of those Gokage with little issue 

I fully appreciate that it's absorb to think how much more powerful those clones were than the 6-Paths and the fact that Onoki can defeat them. But the manga is all about absurd non-sensical power-scaling now, so we have to just role with it at this point.



> Turrin, Onoki is one of my favorite characters and I'd be one of the last people to underrate his prowess, but he looks rather hopeless against Pain. Their skills are even more diverse than his and more importantly their diversity almost completely counters his diversity.


Yet your are nontheless underrating him considering he defeated 25 individuals possessing all the powers of Pain and much much more than that. Even meteor and flower tree world are on a whole other level than anything the Pain paths can produce.

The only path that comes anywhere close to this is Deva when Nagato is focusing all of his chakra on him, but even in that case Deva has limits. He needs time to deactivate bodies and charge up for CST and he needs to get close to Nagato to use CT. This is not like the abilities that Onoki countered which can be pulled out at a moments notice. 



> Preta Path and Deva Path is already an enormous hurdle for Onoki, perfect skill sets against his ultimate ninjutsu and flight advantage.


If Kishi wanted us to think that he would not have shown Onoki defeating 25 enemies who all posses those same powers. 

HG Realm can't be pulled out faster than Onoki's Cube Jinton. Deva Realm is countered by weight and golems. In-fact the large boss sized Golem especially when combined with weight control can probably reflect ST back onto Deva Realm the same way KN6 did by withstanding the attack. For fucks sake the guy took on the highest application of Deva Realms powers we've seen in the manga Cannon (pulling down meteor) and he counter the meteor. Yet now suddenly Deva Realm's vastly inferior abilities are too much for him to handle.


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## Rocky (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin, clones are and have always been vastly weaker than the orginal.

It wasn't 25 Madaras, it was 25 4% Madaras.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Turrin, clones are and have always been vastly weaker than the orginal.
> 
> It wasn't 25 Madaras, it was 25 4% Madaras.



Clones aren't 4% the strength of Madara. They just have 4% the chakra of Madara, which is apparently still a shit ton, since each can individually use Stage 3-EMS-Susano'o on-top of other Jutsu. Their physical stats, Jutsu-pools, etc.. remain the same.


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## Rocky (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Clones aren't 4% the strength of Madara. They just have 4% the chakra of Madara, which is apparently still a shit ton, since each can individually use Stage 3-EMS-Susano'o on-top of other Jutsu. Their physical stats, Jutsu-pools, etc.. remain the same.



No, they're 4% everything.

Hashirama has gargantuan levels of Chakra, and Madara slaughtered his clones sitting down. I guarantee you that Madara could not tag those clones so casually if they had the same speed & Jutsu as Hashirama himself.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> @Niku
> 
> I'm not going to even bother with someone who is going to sit here and argue Susano'o used by Madara clones are magically different than normal Susano'o,



The explanation isn't really "magical"; the difference is evident in their performance against the same opponents (the five Kage) and in the known rule that the strength of clones is divided by their number.



> despite them possessing the same exact appearance and abilities.



Having the same appearance and abilities doesn't mean they have the same power.

For that matter, even if they could use the same abilities, you should be careful to not assume that they could use these abilities while also using Susano'o at the same time. Despite being clones of an Edo Tensei, their chakra cap is still greatly reduced from the original's.



> That absurdity is where I draw the line.



I don't really care what your reasons are for being unwilling (or unable) to provide a refutation.

Anyway, as you can see:



Rocky said:


> Turrin, clones are and have always been vastly weaker than the orginal.
> 
> It wasn't 25 Madaras, it was 25 4% Madaras.



I am not the only one here who believes in "magic."


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Clones aren't 4% the strength of Madara. They just have 4% the chakra of Madara, which is apparently still a shit ton, since each can individually use Stage 3-EMS-Susano'o on-top of other Jutsu. Their physical stats, Jutsu-pools, etc.. remain the same.





Rocky said:


> No, they're 4% everything.
> 
> Hashirama has gargantuan levels of Chakra, and Madara slaughtered his clones sitting down. I guarantee you that Madara could not tag those clones so casually if they had the same speed & Jutsu as Hashirama himself.



I'd like to add that the burden of proof is on you, Turrin, if you are going to just state these things like established fact.

Itachi could use not just a muscular Susano'o, but the complete version, with a stamina rating of only 2.5 and after using 3 Mangekyou Sharingan Jutsu (among others). This, while also sick and heavily injured... Susano'o does not require that much chakra to use.


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## Rocky (Oct 6, 2013)

I'll keep going:



Hiraishin is instantaneous by nature, so we sure as hell know that the Hokage were not speaking of teleportation speed. They were speaking of reflexive ability & the required combat speed to effectively use Hiraishin. Clones were too slow...because they're physically inferior to the originals.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No, they're 4% everything.
> 
> Hashirama has gargantuan levels of Chakra, and Madara slaughtered his clones sitting down. I guarantee you that Madara could not tag those clones so casually if they had the same speed & Jutsu as Hashirama himself.


This is not how clones work....so yeah. I'm not going to bother digging up panels to explain to you & Niku a basic concept that has been present since Part I of the manga. It's not worth my time. You guys can believe what you want.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 6, 2013)

^ #1 way to auto-loose a debate.

Go ahead and tell me, why did Minato believe that using Hiraishin with clones would be slower?


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This is not how clones work....so yeah. I'm not going to bother digging up panels to explain to you & Niku a basic concept that has been present since Part I of the manga. It's not worth my time. You guys can believe what you want.



Stop acting like your own refusal to substantiate your claims is somehow our problem.

This debate was settled the moment Rocky brought up the example of Madara casually dispatching Hashirama's clone.


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So you are saying that subjective character portrayal > feats?


Onoki defeating the clones is a feat.



> Does kishi having naruto not use any ninjutsu when he fights mokuryu portray that ninjutsu would have been less effective against the dragon than just wrestling with it?
> 
> Does kishi having Naruto not use shunshin against obito portray that not using his pseudo FTG speed would not be as effective as just running?
> 
> ...


None of these guys were defeated. 

If Naruto was defeated by Wood Dragon, than yes it wouldn't have made a difference
If Naruto was defeated by Obito, than yes
Well you get the picture.



> naruto wasn't fed intel while he was in sennin mode, intel is simply a stipulation unless the person who's giving you intel actually helps you fight, then they aren't part of the A>B>C logic.
> irrelevant, stipulations like sandaime raikage gaining knowledge is a featbased argument. With your portrayal argument it doesn't matter what they decide to use in a fight the only thing that matters is the outcome of the figh


Your intentionally comparing incomparable scenarios. In Onoki's case we saw him go up against 5 Madara clones and defeat them. We never saw SM Naruto fight 5 Sandaime Raikages and defeat them. That's the difference. If Naruto actually defeated 5 Sandaime Raikages than I would not care if they did not use specific techniques. Because I'd know that Kishi wants SM Naruto to be capable of defeating those 5 Raikages. However were talking about a made up scenario, so of course we need to speculate on how events would play out.



> SM Naruto obviously starts out in SM, intel doesn't need to be fed to him since he already has manga knowledge on sandaime raikage, naruto doesn't need SM to last indefinitely since he defeated Sandaime raikagei with a single rasengan in just a few panels.


He defeated 1 Sandaime Raikage, that's the difference here. There is more than 1. 



> No, SM Naruto was not getting intel fed to him, that was base naruto once in SM he had none of that, naruto doesn't need to stay in SM indefinitely seeing as it only takes a rasengan to beat sandaime raikage, and by your logic it's not SM Naruto > 5 paths of pain, it's SM Naruto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 paths of pain since just one of his shadow clones > a path.


Actually that's not my logic, that's what your extrapolating onto my argument w/o reading it properly. 

If Naruto defeated 5 Sandaime Raikage's than you'd have a point, but he hasn't. I'm talking tangible feats, your talking made up feats.



> Wait, why wouldn't oonoki have an extremely easy time defeating the 5 if deva path isn't included? Each madara clone is superior to them in every way, according to you they can use al of pain's techniques and even that


I literally explained it too you the difference between (focused) deva realm and normal paths, so now your just ignoring my argument.



> It sure is when you consider the alternative things that you'd have to accept.


It's not hard for me to accept considering that shit Ninja do in this manga.



> except #1 would lead you to the conclusion that oonoki could have simply oneshotted all those susanoo clones with ease considering the area they were within was much much much smaller than the island and that tsunade was constantly healing him throughout the fight. So attached to number one you'd have to say that oonoki at full chakra oneshots Edo madara since he simply touches the ground and makes him super weighted.


If Onoki was at full chakra than perhaps he could have used weight control that way, but as I have said many times he wasn't

Super weighting would not defeat Edo Madara. Onoki would still need to get through P-Susano'o's defenses to land a finishing blow, while Madara with his full chakra can cast powerful Jutsu while remaining motionless such as Flower Tree World, Meteors, etc...

As for the rest of this you didn't address any part of my argument, really. So I maintain that if Onoki managed to touch those Susano'o and weight alter them he's not going to have difficulty doing so against several paths.



> yeah so simply just A>B>C logic which totally disregards any and all abilities of pein and how they'd stack up to oonoki. Since when did madara's susanoo clones throw magatamas? Since when did those susanoos dual wield swords? And none of that comes even remotely close to shinra tenseis AoE crowd control abilities which instantly hits whatever pain wants it to, so no.


Use common sense please.



> Why? Why is deva path the only exception? Since when do madara's clones have shared vision? Simply having the rinnegan doesn't grant the user shared vision.


Because Focused Deva Realm is the only path with better feats of power output than the 25 clones. Yes Rinnegan does grant shared vision.



> why do you think oonoki is waiting right in front of them instead of helping the other kage out?


He was helping the other Kages out, he saved Raikage's ass. So what are you talking about. And this has nothing to do with what I said.



> Nope, the fight was clearly madara 1 vs 1 against rock lee. Lee was the only one who came at madara he started a set distance away from madara, madara couldn't even react or do anything against him, not even put susanoo up. All the while madara showed no signs of focusing his efforts on controlling the juubi since he sent the tails at the alliance.


I already explained this and you ignored it so see my previous post.



> Yes he is, the alliance simply didn't take advantage of his defeat in order to seal him. At worse that means lee beats a living Rinnegan madara.


Please learn what defeat means



> er, what? So you are saying that after the alliance broke through the juubi's tails, madara tried to use the juubi to defend himself from the alliance's attacks?


No i'm saying that Madara was counting on Juubi to defend the alliance's collective attack. That failed and allowed Lee to get in close enough to him where he could launch his attack. 



> absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. He's never shown a shinra tensei directed at a target yet fail to hit that target due to the target's range. And you haven't answered the question about shinra tensei not dealing much damage unless used in CQC.


I already answered this, now your just repeating yourself



> based on what logic did he pull the boulder from the shattered wall behind him? the boulder is coming from a different direction than the shattered wall, and the rocks we see him create from shattering the wall are not even close to the size of that one.


Common sense. And smashing a rock wall that big could have easily created a bolder that size.



> sure it's from the river creek, but what part?


IDK, your the one trying to prove it was from far away so you tell me. I've shown you it could be from close, which conforms with every other time BT was used.

Anyway not going to respond anymore since you keep ignoring most of my points and repeating yourself. Plus i'm familiar with your argument at this point and I don't find it convincing, and I can tell from the tone of this post that you don't find mine points convincing, so I don't see a point continuing to discuss things with you. It becomes a waste of my time when our view points are so totally different.  So yeah i'm out. You can believe what you want about Onoki.



Nikushimi said:


> Stop acting like your own refusal to substantiate your claims is somehow our problem.
> 
> This debate was settled the moment Rocky brought up the example of Madara casually dispatching Hashirama's clone.


The problem is both of us. Our view points are too radically different for there to be any common ground that would be conducive to actual discussion. Or to put it another way I find parts of your argument too absurd and too against what I'd consider common sense to bother putting in any decent effort to refute them. Clearly you feel the same way about some of my points, given your last post. So clearly this is going to be a circular argument. Why should I or you waste time on this? Your acting like this is a contest with something to be won, however it's not, the only thing we can get out it is enjoyment in discussing shit about the manga. I don't get enjoyment making long detailed post that go nowhere for pages apon pages as I used to, so whatever.... You can pretend you win or whatever because I'm not  bothering with responding to your points anymore or whatever you want to do....don't matter to me.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The problem is both of us. Our view points are too radically different for there to be any common ground that would be conducive to actual discussion. Or to put it another way I find parts of your argument too absurd and too against what I'd consider common sense to bother putting in any decent effort to refute them. Clearly you feel the same way about some of my points, given your last post. So clearly this is going to be a circular argument. Why should I or you waste time on this?



If it is indeed an objective, demonstrable fact that the Susano'o clones were equal to the original, and if they were capable of using all of Madara's Jutsu including the Rinnegan Jutsu that Madara himself never displayed, and they DID use those Jutsu, and Oonoki STILL beat them...or not...then these are things which can be cited or refuted from the source material.

If these things cannot be cited or refuted, if they are not present in the source material, then the argument is baseless.

It's very simple, really.



> Your acting like this is a contest with something to be won,



That is exactly what this is.

All day, every day.



> however it's not, the only thing we can get out it is enjoyment in discussing shit about the manga. I don't get enjoyment making long detailed post that go nowhere for pages apon pages as I used to, so whatever.... You can pretend you win or whatever because I'm not  bothering with responding to your points anymore or whatever you want to do....don't matter to me.



The posts don't really have to be long or detailed here; there are just a few points you ought to address:

-Hiraishin being slower with clones.
-Madara casually dispatching Hashirama's Moku Bunshin.
-Madara's Moku Bunshin never displaying the Rinnegan Jutsu you allege wouldn't work against Oonoki.

I'm really curious to know how you concluded that Oonoki is capable of countering Jutsu he's never had to deal with.


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## Turrin (Oct 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If it is indeed an objective, demonstrable fact that the Susano'o clones were equal to the original, and if they were capable of using all of Madara's Jutsu including the Rinnegan Jutsu that Madara himself never displayed, and they DID use those Jutsu, and Oonoki STILL beat them...or not...then these are things which can be cited or refuted from the source material.
> 
> If these things cannot be cited or refuted, if they are not present in the source material, then the argument is baseless.
> 
> It's very simple, really.


It really isn't, because you can cite all the evidence in the world and someone can make up BS to still "justify" their opinion. Or simply choose to ignore the evidence. There is no moderator here determine who is presenting a more credible argument.



> That is exactly what this is.
> 
> All day, every day.


Okay, well have fun with a "contest" you can't win, loose, or get anything out of. 



> The posts don't really have to be long or detailed here; there are just a few points you ought to address


Why waste any-time when opinions aren't going to change.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 7, 2013)

Turrin, if you are going to convince me and other people who are reading this thread that Ōnoki is as strong as you say he is, you're going to have to refute what Nikushimi and Rocky have shown. I would like to see what your counters are.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> It really isn't, because you can cite all the evidence in the world and someone can make up BS to still "justify" their opinion. Or simply choose to ignore the evidence.



Yeah, I've noticed.

However, despite your best efforts to rationalize what you can't prove, I've still supplied evidence to back up my own claims and refute yours. There is a very clear distinction between right and wrong here, which you're making increasingly evident.



> There is no moderator here determine who is presenting a more credible argument.



That isn't necessary; the right answer is determined by the evidence, which you have thus far been unable to provide.



> Okay, well have fun with a "contest" you can't win, loose, or get anything out of.



Way ahead of you.



> Why waste any-time when opinions aren't going to change.



Because we're not debating opinions.

"Oonoki can handle every Rinnegan Jutsu" isn't an opinion, just like "The Empire State Building is twelve feet tall" isn't an opinion. You don't get to make a factually inaccurate claim and then weasel out of your responsibility to back it up by saying "It's just my opinion; it's true for me."

No, it isn't true for anyone. Not even you.


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## Van Konzen (Oct 7, 2013)

the will of the stone will be crushed.


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## Jagger (Oct 7, 2013)

Pain uses Bansho Tenin and Animal Path summons Gedo Mazo on top of Onoki. GG.

While I'm not very serious with this statement and it seems like something Pain wouldn't do, there are multiple scenarios where Pain can effortlessly kill Onoki in minutes.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 7, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Pain wins this of course and did you seriously put Sakura above Pain in your tier list?



Sakura was stated in the manga to have surpassed Tsunade , and be close to the level off EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto or at least close to it, 

remeber Sakura's bread and butter is her support abilities so even if she can't defeat the Pain bodies in direct combat although with knowledge I give her a decent shot, she can still be in his general tier due to being a medical ninja, the problem with tier list is that people tend to ignore the story structure and tend to favor characters they believe will win in a battledome scenario not understanding that Kishimoto will give the more important character to the story structure a jutsu that will trump that of the battledome favorite, that's how manga works ,

no matter what battledomers say, Kishi has said Sakura surpassed Tsunade who is one of the 3 Sannin and who is the strongest of the Gokage she should be on a tier with pain , and being in the general tier with somebody doesn't always mean you can defeat said person in combat.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 7, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Pain no diff. Also OP, that tier list in your sig sucks dick.



All this is wrong , Onoki is close to Jiriyia in strength who was said to be able to defeat Pain with knowledge , even if Pain wins it by no means will be a walk in the park 

as for my sig of you have a problem with it take it up with Kishi I just go by what the structure of the story has laid out not hypothetical scenarios based around fanboy logic


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## blk (Oct 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This isn't a stomp. Onoki defeated 5 Madara clones while exhausted who are individually stronger than any single path of pain bar (Focused) Deva Realm. Than when recharged by Tsunade he demolished 25 Madara clones.
> 
> If Madara clones couldn't avoid being super weighted even when wielding Stage 3 Susano'o, how are are Pain Realms going to far any differently. Once super weighted Animal, Human, Naraka, and Asura are pretty much defenseless against any attack Onoki pulls out after that. HG Realm could defend certain attacks, but we saw Onoki pull out Jinton faster than any of the Madara clones and even the real Madara (before his body was partially vaporized) could pull out HG Realm, so I don't see HG realm being able to defend Onoki's more powerful Jinton attacks. Deva is really the only challenge here for Onok, but using BT on Onoki would not be a good idea since drawing him in close would be an open invitation for Onoki to turn him into stone. ST will keep Deva safe for awhile, but it won't work so well in the long term do to the cool down time. With super weighting Deva is probably not escaping to get closer to Nagato to use CT, though if he did Large Jinton could probably bust CT regardless.
> 
> ...



This has to be a bad joke.

As far as we know Madara's clones never used anything more than mere CQC, of course Onoki and the others were able to survive (and the former to super weight them).

Pain's Preta path doesn't have Susano'o, so it will be able to immediatly absorb any Jinton.
Deva will repel it and at the same time hit Onoki with ST.

Onoki is either outlasted or crushed by Deva's powers.


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## Jizznificent (Oct 7, 2013)

Not only is pain much stronger than oonoki, he is also one of oonoki's worst matchups. Pretty much everything oonoki has, pain can nullify. This isn't even debatable, pain crushes oonoki; it's just a matter of how badly.


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## Senjuclan (Oct 7, 2013)

You guys helping Turrin with that post count


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2013)

Lol Nagato suggests Jiraiya could defeat Pain if he had an inkling of knowledge on Rinnegan.

He defeats 3 paths without any knowledge. 

SM Naruto defeats 6 paths with standard knowledge. 

Onoki, a Kekki-Tota user, meteor lifter, survivor of two encounters with Uchiha Madara, one being *RINNEGAN* Madara, Susano destroyer and strongest kage of current is stomped by Pain? 

This dome continues to crumble. Please, amuse us further with the monkey antics.

He spams earth clones and super inflates the paths with weight, then he kills 5 of them with Jinton cube. 

Deva Path was blitzed by Base Naruto. Base Naruto. Let me say that again, Base Naruto.


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## blk (Oct 7, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lol Nagato suggests Jiraiya could defeat Pain if he had an inkling of knowledge on Rinnegan.
> 
> He defeats 3 paths without any knowledge.
> 
> ...



Earth clones can be destroyed by summons, absorbed by Preta Path, dispatched with ST or obliterated by Asura.

Even if they do make contact with the paths and super weight them, Deva can still repel any Jinton and kill Onoki in the process, Asura can still shoot lasers, Animal Path can still summon and cause Onoki to waste chakra on the beasts.
Preta Path cannot be touched by clones.
Heck, even if Onoki manages to increase its weight somehow, the path can arguably nullify the tecnique by absorbing the chakra that is increasing its weight (and then do that with the others).

The bottom line is that, at any given moment, if there is the need, Deva can kill Onoki with a huge ST (CST level if needed).


----------



## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2013)

> Earth clones can be destroyed by summons, absorbed by Preta Path, dispatched with ST or obliterated by Asura.


No they can't, because Onoki wasn't touched by 5 Mokuton Susano Madara clones.

Did you honestly just suggests summons and an absorption sphere worthy of disabling his clones? Did you just suggest Head Laser superior to Jinton- as if the clones cannot disperse the laser blast? ST disperses sonic-flying clones surrounding the battlefield? :rofl



> Even if they do make contact with the paths and super weight them, Deva can still repel any Jinton and kill Onoki in the process, Asura can still shoot missiles and lasers, Animal Path can still summon and cause Onoki to waste chakra on the beasts.
> Preta Path canno be touched by clones.
> Heck, even if Onoki manages to increase its weight somehow, the path can arguably nullify the tecnique by absorbing the chakra that is increasing its weight (and then do that with the others).


How does Deva Path repel a clone that is right next to a path? Are you suggesting he repels his own paths? Are you suggesting Deva Path has the capacity to repel several earth clones attacking different paths at the same time? 

Is Deva Path god? 

Preta can't be touched by clones? Then Onoki touches him himself? Then a golem smashes him? Then he's sunk into a crater and toppled by free-falling golem hands. Please, give him more of a challenge. This man destroyed an army of Preta Paths in an instant. 

Oh, you think Preta can absorb weight inflation when Madara's Susano clones could not? You believe he can counter it before being head-shotted with Rock Fist or obliterated with Jinton? Do you read the manga or do you simply go on the drive of baseless fanboyism? 



> The bottom line is that, at any given moment, if there is the need, Deva can kill Onoki with a huge ST (CST level if needed).


ST is outright bulled through with Jinton or simply avoided by flying. Kakashi survived a direct ST, Hinata loved it. It's weak, fruitless force that doesn't even compare to what Onoki was subjected to against Madara [1] [2]. 

CST cannot be used with other paths out. And you better believe Onoki won't let him live to that end- Madara's Susano clones were outright blitzed by Onoki and he destroyed an army of Rinnegan users with a Jinton Cube.

These paths are fucking chump change challenges compared to how he schooled Rinnegan Madara. Here's Deva's ST being tanked by the bodies of Base Naruto clones who were not dispersed: [1], and here's Base Naruto with 2 clones blitzing Deva Path in plain sight [2] [3].

Exchange Naruto's clones for an earth golem or wall, and Base Naruto's Rasengan with Onoki's rock fist or Jinton Cube. The result is identical.


----------



## blk (Oct 7, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> No they can't, because Onoki wasn't touched by 5 Mokuton Susano Madara clones.
> 
> Did you honestly just suggests summons and an absorption sphere worthy of disabling his clones? Did you just suggest Head Laser superior to Jinton- as if the clones cannot disperse the laser blast? ST disperses sonic-flying clones surrounding the battlefield? :rofl



From when Onoki's clones can utilize Jinton? What can they do to Pain's summons? How are they going to get past Preta Path?

Are there credible reasons for why Onoki's clones won't be dispersed by ST?




> How does Deva Path repel a clone that is right next to a path? Are you suggesting he repels his own paths? Are you suggesting Deva Path has the capacity to repel several earth clones attacking different paths at the same time?
> 
> Is Deva Path god?
> 
> ...



If there is the need, Deva will use ST even if the other Paths will be hit.

An ST of roughly this level [1 ; 2] can easily destroy any clone around, and potentially kill Onoki if he is not far away.

Preta Path will absorb any clone that makes contact, same for the golem; if Onoki comes too close an ST, or a missile, or a laser, or a beast summoned suddenly, kills him.



> ST is outright bulled through with Jinton or simply avoided by flying. Kakashi survived a direct ST, Hinata loved it. It's weak, fruitless force that doesn't even compare to what Onoki was subjected to against Madara [1] [2].
> 
> CST cannot be used with other paths out. And you better believe Onoki won't let him live to that end- Madara's Susano clones were outright blitzed by Onoki and he destroyed an army of Rinnegan users with a Jinton Cube.
> 
> ...



Are you implying that Onoki received direct hits from these attacks? Does he have mountain level durability now?

I already shown the kind of ST that can one-shot Onoki.

In that instance Deva was exausted and was barely able to stand, as you can see in the second link.


----------



## Dominus (Oct 7, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sakura was stated in the manga to have surpassed Tsunade , and be close to the level off EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto or at least close to it,
> 
> remeber Sakura's bread and butter is her support abilities so even if she can't defeat the Pain bodies in direct combat although with knowledge I give her a decent shot, she can still be in his general tier due to being a medical ninja, the problem with tier list is that people tend to ignore the story structure and tend to favor characters they believe will win in a battledome scenario not understanding that Kishimoto will give the more important character to the story structure a jutsu that will trump that of the battledome favorite, that's how manga works ,
> 
> no matter what battledomers say, Kishi has said Sakura surpassed Tsunade who is one of the 3 Sannin and who is the strongest of the Gokage she should be on a tier with pain , and being in the general tier with somebody doesn't always mean you can defeat said person in combat.



Nobody said that she surpassed Tsunade, Hashirama just said that she *might* be stronger than Tsunade and he never saw Tsunade grow up, he remembers her as a little girl. Even if she did surpass her, Sakura doesn't stand a chance against him... I'm pretty sure God Realm has the power necessary to defeat her alone.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, I've noticed.
> .


Since your one of the posters most guilty of this, it would be shocking if you didn't notice....



> However, despite your best efforts to rationalize what you can't prove, I've still supplied evidence to back up my own claims and refute yours. There is a very clear distinction between right and wrong here, which you're making increasingly evident.


I've lived in a magical village where beer rains from the sky and all the houses are made of edible party snacks. It's fun to pretend. 



> Way ahead of you.


Well go ahead, but don't expect me to put any real effort into engaging in discussion with you, so long as your treat it as a contest. Because I'm not here to win some fantasy debate & prize. I'm here to discuss the match.



> Because we're not debating opinions.


We aren't debating anything. A debate implies moderators and winner. We're in the BD which,_ " is a subsection dedicated to the discussion of hypothetical 'versus' scenarios (ie. battles) between Naruto characters based on the Naruto storyline."_

Your opinion is that Onoki would be fodderized by Pain Rikudo. My opinion is that I don't think Kishi wants us to believe the guy who defeated 25 Madara clones, would get fodderized by Pain. So than you respond with your opinion that the 25 Madara clones are essentially fodder, compared to the 6 Paths. I responed with my opinion that this is one of the biggest BS arguments I've heard on the forums. 



> "Oonoki can handle every Rinnegan Jutsu" isn't an opinion, just like "The Empire State Building is twelve feet tall" isn't an opinion. You don't get to make a factually inaccurate claim and then weasel out of your responsibility to back it up by saying "It's just my opinion; it's true for me."


I challenge you to find where I said, "Onoki can handle every Rinnegan Jutsu"

Your the one who just made a factually inaccurate claim by misquoting me. 



Senjuclan said:


> You guys helping Turrin with that post count


Post -Count + 1


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Since your one of the posters most guilty of this, it would be shocking if you didn't notice....



That's an interesting accusation coming from one who has repeatedly refused to debate this issue.



> I've lived in a magical village where beer rains from the sky and all the houses are made of edible party snacks. It's fun to pretend.



That's the best argument for Oonoki beating Pain you've offered so far.



> Well go ahead, but don't expect me to put any real effort into engaging in discussion with you, so long as your treat it as a contest. Because I'm not here to win some fantasy debate & prize. I'm here to discuss the match.



And yet you keep saying you're not going to do precisely that.



> We aren't debating anything. A debate implies moderators and winner. We're in the BD which,_ " is a subsection dedicated to the discussion of hypothetical 'versus' scenarios (ie. battles) between Naruto characters based on the Naruto storyline."_



A debate doesn't have to be a formal arrangement with a moderator overseeing the exchange.

But the semantics aren't really important; we have objective truth and the evidence that supports it. The burden is on both of us to substantiate our claims to determine whose position approaches that truth. Thus far, you have been conspicuously avoiding that responsibility by obscuring what is impartially an objective claim under a banner of subjectivity that is patently indefensible.



> Your opinion is that Onoki would be fodderized by Pain Rikudo.



That is not an opinion. Itachi fodderizes Konohamaru is not an opinion. Raikage picks up Kakashi over his head and suplexes him through the Earth's mantle is not an opinion. These are factual claims that can be demonstrated true or false.



> My opinion is that I don't think Kishi wants us to believe the guy who defeated 25 Madara clones, would get fodderized by Pain.



That is not an opinion. You are misjudging Oonoki's ability to fight Pain and justifying it with what you presume to know about the author's intent.



> So than you respond with your opinion that the 25 Madara clones are essentially fodder, compared to the 6 Paths.



Again, not an opinion; 25 4% Madaras using only weakened Susano'o are far weaker than the Pain Rikudou; this is reflected in their feats as well as what we know about their Jutsu.



> I responed with my opinion that this is one of the biggest BS arguments I've heard on the forums.



THAT is an opinion.



> I challenge you to find where I said, "Onoki can handle every Rinnegan Jutsu"



Challenge accepted:



Turrin said:


> This isn't a stomp. Onoki defeated 5 Madara clones while exhausted who are individually stronger than any single path of pain bar (Focused) Deva Realm. Than when recharged by Tsunade he demolished 25 Madara clones.
> 
> So I honestly favor Onoki here.





Turrin said:


> A>B>C logic works fine in this scenario, *because each Madara clone literally has all the powers of Mokuton, EMS, and Rinnegan. So each Madara clone should be considerably stronger than any Path of Pain.* So Onoki being able to defeat 5 of them when not at 100% and defeat 25 when at 100%; makes it highly unlikely that the 6 Paths are going to decimate Onoki.





Turrin said:


> I'm completely serious 25 Madara Clones >>> Pain Rikudo. Hell the 5 Onoki beat when exhausted are at least equivalent to Pain Rikudo imo. *They literally each have the abilities of all 6 Paths and than Mokuton/Sharingan abilities on top of that, plus superior speed/reaction time. It's hard for me to accept Onoki is that strong as well, but that's what Kishi choose to show us*
> 
> ...even when messing around 25 Madara clones are well beyond Pain Rikudo in strength.





Turrin said:


> *1. Logically they should have these powers (and it is suggested that they can use the powers since Madara mentions them being able to use HG Realm)
> 2. The fact that they didn't use them should tell us that Kishi doesn't think they would (or should) make a difference against the Jutsu they were facing from Onoki.*



I could go on, but I really don't see the point. Go back and re-read your own exchange with ueharakk.



> Your the one who just made a factually inaccurate claim by misquoting me.



Are you conceding that Oonoki is NOT capable of handling all of Pain's Jutsu, then?



DaVizWiz said:


> Lol Nagato suggests Jiraiya could defeat Pain if he had an inkling of knowledge on Rinnegan.



Knowledge of his key "secret," whereas Pain had none on Sage Mode or Gamarinshou and Jiraiya fought in an environment where Nagato would not have exercised Tendou's full power except as a grave last resort.



> He defeats 3 paths without any knowledge.



When only those three paths are present on the battlefield and Tendou isn't among them.



> SM Naruto defeats 6 paths with standard knowledge.



When Tendou's powers are disabled for the first half of the fight and Pain isn't trying to kill him.

And Pain _still_ won, up until Hinata stepped in and awakened Naruto's Kyuubi powers uncontrollably.



> Onoki, a Kekki-Tota user,



Meaningless.



> meteor lifter,



What good is this against Pain?



> survivor of two encounters with Uchiha Madara, one being *RINNEGAN* Madara,



You make this sound like an accomplishment instead of just something Madara allowed to happen.



> Susano destroyer



25 4% Madara Susano'o...



> and strongest kage of current



We're talking about Oonoki here, not A.



> is stomped by Pain?



Yes.

And so is A, for the record.



> This dome continues to crumble. Please, amuse us further with the monkey antics.



There is more than one of you?



> He spams earth clones and super inflates the paths with weight, then he kills 5 of them with Jinton cube.



Or, you know...Pain just used Shinra Tensei and wipes him out like a dingleberry.



> Deva Path was blitzed by Base Naruto. Base Naruto. Let me say that again, Base Naruto.



When Nagato was exhausted and Tendou couldn't even stand up.

Fully ambulatory, that path covered about two-hundred meters in a single bound and intercepted base Naruto while he was running in the same direction.


----------



## Jagger (Oct 7, 2013)

Deva Path uses CST. 

Battle is over. Come on guys, it's not even that hard to figure out. 



Eliyua23 said:


> Sakura was stated in the manga to have surpassed Tsunade , and be close to the level off EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto or at least close to it,
> 
> remeber Sakura's bread and butter is her support abilities so even if she can't defeat the Pain bodies in direct combat although with knowledge I give her a decent shot, she can still be in his general tier due to being a medical ninja, the problem with tier list is that people tend to ignore the story structure and tend to favor characters they believe will win in a battledome scenario not understanding that Kishimoto will give the more important character to the story structure a jutsu that will trump that of the battledome favorite, that's how manga works ,
> 
> no matter what battledomers say, Kishi has said Sakura surpassed Tsunade who is one of the 3 Sannin and who is the strongest of the Gokage she should be on a tier with pain , and being in the general tier with somebody doesn't always mean you can defeat said person in combat.


And this is what we call, a bad joke.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's an interesting accusation coming from one who has repeatedly refused to debate this issue.


I refuse to discuss the issue with you



> That's the best argument for Oonoki beating Pain you've offered so far.


I think you might be drinking too much of the beer rain, because I stopped discussing Onoki vs Pain with you many posts ago



> And yet you keep saying you're not going to do precisely that.


The thing is you made it pretty clear you don't want to discuss things Niku, but rather want to engage in a fantasy debate. 



> A debate doesn't have to be a formal arrangement with a moderator overseeing the exchange.


There is no point to it than.



> But the semantics aren't really important; we have objective truth and the evidence that supports it. The burden is on both of us to substantiate our claims to determine whose position approaches that truth. Thus far, you have been conspicuously avoiding that responsibility by obscuring what is impartially an objective claim under a banner of subjectivity that is patently indefensible.


What responsibility lol...I'm not obligated to discuss something with someone I feel will go nowhere. 



> That is not an opinion. Itachi fodderizes Konohamaru is not an opinion. Raikage picks up Kakashi over his head and suplexes him through the Earth's mantle is not an opinion. These are factual claims that can be demonstrated true or false.


You can't prove, to the point of it being a fact, who would win a hypothetical battle, which hasn't happened in the manga cannon. As stupid as it would be, if he wanted to Kishi could ass-pull Jutsu that allow Konohamaru to beat Itachi. To use your example.



> That is not an opinion.
> Again, not an opinion


Here's what you need to do:

1. Find a dictionary
2. Open up that dictionary 
3. Find the "O" section
4. Flip through the "O" section till you get to the word "opinion"
5. Read the definition of the word
6. Pop a bottle of champagne
7. Celebrate that you now know the definition of the word "opinion"  



> THAT is an opinion.


Good job Niku, you read what I said, i'm proud of you



> Challenge accepted:


And challenge failed. Because nowhere in those post did i say and I quote, "Onoki can handle every Rinnegan Jutsu". Try again next time.



> Are you conceding that Oonoki is NOT capable of handling all of Pain's Jutsu, then?


Are you saying the Jutsu Pain (less focused Deva) are all the Jutsu Rinnegan allows?

If so


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I refuse to discuss the issue with you



You have said that several times despite continuing this line of discourse, yes.



> I think you might be drinking too much of the beer rain, because I stopped discussing Onoki vs Pain with you many posts ago



I noticed.



> The thing is you made it pretty clear you don't want to discuss things Niku, but rather want to engage in a fantasy debate.



I'm going awfully far out of my way to discuss things for someone who allegedly doesn't want to discuss things.



> There is no point to it than.



There is always a point if you want one.



> What responsibility lol...I'm not obligated to discuss something with someone I feel will go nowhere.



You have a responsibility to back up any claims you make. Otherwise, you are just disseminating baseless information. No, that's not what opinions are.



> You can't prove, to the point of it being a fact, who would win a hypothetical battle, which hasn't happened in the manga cannon. As stupid as it would be, if he wanted to Kishi could ass-pull Jutsu that allow Konohamaru to beat Itachi. To use your example.



Going strictly by what actually exists in the source material, without accounting for potential revision of that material, there is a very definite way to objectively prove that Konohamaru cannot beat Itachi in a fair fight. The same is true for Oonoki vs. Pain, as myself and Rocky have indicated at great length to you.



> Here's what you need to do:
> 
> 1. Find a dictionary
> 2. Open up that dictionary
> ...



opin?ion
noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\

: a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing

: advice from someone with special knowledge : advice from an expert

: a formal statement by a judge, court, etc., explaining the reasons a decision was made according to laws or rules
Full Definition of OPINION
1
a :  a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter
b :  approval, esteem
2
a :  belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge
b :  a generally held view
3
a :  a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert
b :  the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based 


-------------------

"Oonoki would beat Pain" or "Oonoki would not get curbstomped by Pain" are not opinions; they are factually incorrect claims.



> Good job Niku, you read what I said, i'm proud of you



One of us has to.



> And challenge failed. Because nowhere in those post did i say and I quote, "Onoki can handle every Rinnegan Jutsu". Try again next time.



It was implied.

The Madara clones possess the same Rinnegan Jutsu as Pain->Oonoki defeated the Madara clones->The Madara clones are stronger than Pain->Ergo Oonoki is stronger than Pain.

You even went as far as to directly address this belief when you argued on behalf of the author that "[the author] doesn't think [the Rinnegan Jutsu] would (or should) make a difference against the Jutsu [Madara's clones] were facing from Onoki."



> Are you saying the Jutsu Pain (less focused Deva) are all the Jutsu Rinnegan allows?
> 
> If so



I'm not even sure what you are asking with this question.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 7, 2013)

@Nikushimi


> opin?ion
> noun \ə-ˈpin-yən\
> 
> : a belief, judgment, or way of thinking about something : what someone thinks about a particular thing
> ...



You put so much effort in quoting the definition of the word, only to immediately demonstrate you still fail to understand it --- this is too good


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> @Nikushimi
> 
> 
> You put so much effort in quoting the definition of the word, only to immediately demonstrate you still fail to understand it --- this is too good



There are certain kinds of claims which are not bound by individual subjective belief, judgment, or way of thinking. These are claims of fact. "Oonoki can beat Pain" is a claim of fact, like "There are 12 inches in a foot." You are not describing a personal belief, you are describing a property of an external subject. Oonoki's ability to beat Pain is not in any way contingent on your personal feelings, intuition, or reason; he either can or he can't, and that's demonstrable through empirical evidence. It can be refuted. It has been refuted. It is a false claim.


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 8, 2013)

Oh I might as well jump into the cluster fuck 



DaVizWiz said:


> No they can't, because Onoki wasn't touched by 5 Mokuton Susano Madara clones.



Becuase fighting a 100% full power _Pein Rikudo_ is the same as fighting 5 Sasuno'o with 4% of the orginials chakra using ZERO abilities other than _Sasuno'o_ 



DaVizWiz said:


> honestly just suggests summons and an absorption sphere worthy of disabling his clones? Did you just suggest Head Laser superior to Jinton- as if the clones cannot disperse the laser blast? ST disperses sonic-flying clones surrounding the battlefield? :rofl



Becuase Onoki's A) has the chakra reserves and B) when have his clones *ever* used _Jinton_? 

....stop



DaVizWiz said:


> does Deva Path repel a clone that is right next to a path? Are you suggesting he repels his own paths? Are you suggesting Deva Path has the capacity to repel several earth clones attacking different paths at the same time?



You mean how Tendo obliterated and SM Naruto clone right before it struck Gakido?  

Onoki can make 6 _Doton Bunshin_.... at the same time.... really? I forgot Nagato is going to "IC" split the paths up so they can be fought 1 vs. 1



DaVizWiz said:


> Is Deva Path god?



To Onoki..... yes he would be



DaVizWiz said:


> Preta can't be touched by clones? Then Onoki touches him himself? Then a golem smashes him? Then he's sunk into a crater and toppled by free-falling golem hands. Please, give him more of a challenge. This man destroyed an army of Preta Paths in an instant.



Which does what? Onoki touches him..... and gets his *entire chakra pool* leached in a matter of seconds? Oh and Tendo, Shurado, Ningendo, Chikushodo, Jigukudo and whatever summon on the field totally stand by and watch this....



DaVizWiz said:


> Oh, you think Preta can absorb weight inflation when Madara's Susano clones could not? You believe he can counter it before being head-shotted with Rock Fist or obliterated with Jinton? Do you read the manga or do you simply go on the drive of baseless fanboyism?



Did you miss the part where Madara himself (let alone his clones) can't use EMS & Rinnegan in conjunction. they have to PHYSICALLY deactivate on an reactivate the other. 

Did you read the manga where Ninjustu (something a _Doton Golem_ and _Jinton_ would comfortably fall under) are canonically fodder to Gakido thanks to _Fujutsu Kuyin_



DaVizWiz said:


> ST is outright bulled through with Jinton







DaVizWiz said:


> Or simply avoided by flying. Kakashi survived a direct ST, Hinata loved it. It's weak, fruitless force that doesn't even compare to what Onoki was subjected to against Madara [1] [2].



....... should I _really_ have to explain any further how dumb this argument sounds? 

Flying helps how? ST is invisible and can't be dodged.... or better yet Tendo _Bansho Tenin's_ Onoki straight into a hellstorm of _Missiles_ and _Laser Explosion_ 

Kakashi survived fodder ST... and was oneshotted when Tendo decided "its over", Hinata was one shotted by a fodder ST..... Becuase the Sasuno'o's that Onoki fought where PS . Becuase Nagato can't destroy cites and mountain *ranges*, on the verge of death to boot?



DaVizWiz said:


> CST cannot be used with other paths out. And you better believe Onoki won't let him live to that end- Madara's Susano clones were outright blitzed by Onoki and he destroyed an army of Rinnegan users with a Jinton Cube.



Um... CST's "charge" time is probably shorter than the time it takes Onoki to charge _Jinton_? Even in the event it wasn't.... thats why Tendo just falls back during the mayhem, the paths drops... Onoki thinks wtf? and is obliterated have a second later, GG

Madara's was being an egotistical asshole, sitting with his arms folded as he clones foddered the Kages, not giving a single fuck. The only reason Onoki's _Jinton_ cube was that big was thanks to Tsunade so we can end that argument, and even then if Madara choose to have his clones use Rinnegan rather than EMS, Onoki would have been trolled... again. 



DaVizWiz said:


> These paths are fucking chump change challenges compared to how he schooled Rinnegan Madara. Here's Deva's ST being tanked by the bodies of Base Naruto clones who were not dispersed: [1], and here's Base Naruto with 2 clones blitzing Deva Path in plain sight [2] [3].



Becuase Nagato wasn't half dead and Tendo being incapable of standing right after that attack. You'd have at best a mediocre argument had Nagato been at 100%, and then that would have been shut down when Tendo just makes a substantially bigger ST



DaVizWiz said:


> Exchange Naruto's clones for an earth golem or wall, and Base Naruto's Rasengan with Onoki's rock fist or Jinton Cube. The result is identical.



Or replace a tired Nagato, with one who barely even stressed his chakra reserves..... and a lot of nuking


----------



## raizen28 (Oct 8, 2013)

ST disperses Jinton like RS


----------



## Turrin (Oct 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> There are certain kinds of claims which are not bound by individual subjective belief, judgment, or way of thinking. These are claims of fact. "Oonoki can beat Pain" is a claim of fact, like "There are 12 inches in a foot." You are not describing a personal belief, you are describing a property of an external subject. Oonoki's ability to beat Pain is not in any way contingent on your personal feelings, intuition, or reason; he either can or he can't, and that's demonstrable through empirical evidence. It can be refuted. It has been refuted. It is a false claim.


People surely can hold an opinion that one character beats another in a hypothetical battle. So thx for letting me know you still don't understand how the word opinion works. :ho


----------



## Joakim3 (Oct 8, 2013)

Turrin said:


> People surely can hold an opinion that one character beats another in a hypothetical battle. So thx for letting me know you still don't understand how the word opinion works. :ho



What your doing is essentially arguing the equivalent of sun doesn't exist because it's currently night time outside. Sure your opinion can be true for you, but thats all it is... your opinion. Facts overrule opinions when said facts are backed up by evidence matching the reality of the claimed fact.

If your opinion (opinions in the case) directly conflict with the evidence presented in the argument then you are.. yes, unfortunately in the wrong, with the burden of proof being put on you as you're asserting a claim or as you put it "my opinion".




Turrin I think you should double check on how facts vs. opinions works in the real world, before you start saying that to other people.....


----------



## Turrin (Oct 8, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> What your doing is essentially arguing the equivalent of sun doesn't exist because it's currently night time outside. Sure your opinion can be true for you, but thats all it is... your opinion. Facts overrule opinions when said facts are backed up by evidence matching the reality of the claimed fact.
> 
> If your opinion (opinions in the case) directly conflict with the evidence presented in the argument then you are.. yes, unfortunately in the wrong, with the burden of proof being put on you as you're asserting a claim or as you put it "my opinion".
> 
> ...


Since your not Niku I'll give your a thoughtful response:

Are you really comparing whether the sun exists, to an opinion of who wins in a hypothetical battle between two fictional characters? That is nowhere near an appropriate comparison. There are plenty of things that factually state the Sun exists, while there is absolutely nothing in the manga that factually states Onoki has no chance of victory against Pain Rikudo or even more ridiculously that Pain Rikudo would stomp Onoki. 

Facts would be if we had a statement (from the author or knowledgeable character) saying Onoki has no chance to beat Pain Rikudo and would indeed get raped. Or if we saw Onoki get rapped by an ability Pain Rikudo possesses and can utilize on the same level as the person who raped Onoki with it originally. Or if we saw Pain Rikudo actually rape Onoki in battle. 

Those are the only things Kishi could show that would make it a fact that Onoki gets raped by Pain Rikudo. Since none of those things have happened, Onoki being raped is not a fact. So anyone who comes into this thread and talks about the outcome is talking within the realm of opinions. Some opinions may be more effectively argued than others, and thus seem more likely to occur, but they are still just opinions.

Heck matches being posted in the BD pretty much demand as a prerequisite that the winner is not a fact. This is why we don't see matches like Chuunin Exams Gaara vs Chuunin Exams Lee in the BD, because we already know for a fact who the winner was, and so there is nothing to discuss. So unless the OP makes a mistake in the match they posted (in which case Mods almost always lock the thread), than we know everyone's thoughts on the outcome of the match that follow the first post will be each poster's opinions.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 8, 2013)

> From when Onoki's clones can utilize Jinton? What can they do to Pain's summons? How are they going to get past Preta Path?


When can they not? Kakashi's clones utilize Raiton techniques, Naruto's clones utilize all of his techniques, and Madara's clones utilize all of his techniques. People don't want to admit the fact that clones are nearly identical in power to the originals- but it is the truth.



> Are there credible reasons for why Onoki's clones won't be dispersed by ST?


Because his paths will be caught in the blast wave? Because there are multiple clones spreading the battlefield, and a 5-second interval between STs?



> If there is the need, Deva will use ST even if the other Paths will be hit.


This is credible but illogical, Nagato would rather his paths all be destroyed than to sacrifice one himself. This is logical considering he didn't use any of them as feints to flank Naruto and instead remained in a defensive formation even while they were systematically erased one by one. 



> An ST of roughly this level [1 ; 2] can easily destroy any clone around, and potentially kill Onoki if he is not far away.


This was used when Deva was the only path out, and he had a 1-second charge time. Nagato's chakras are being split 6 ways and there are other paths in the radius that would be killed by this level of ST. 

The other ST was utilized by Edo Nagato who had prep charge time as he was the attacker. Deva's STs don't compare to Nagato's power output especially when there are 5 other paths splitting the chakra link. 



> Preta Path will absorb any clone that makes contact, same for the golem; if Onoki comes too close an ST, or a missile, or a laser, or a beast summoned suddenly, kills him.


You don't make sense. A Rock Golem cannot be absorbed- it's rock. It can stop being controlled- but it does not disappear from existence. 

The idea that clones are absorbed is utter fallacy- do you honestly believe Asura Path will react to every clone advancing his way and make contact with their bodies when Onoki's speed is great enough to blitz 5 Rinnegan Madara Susanos? 

Missiles and Lasers are hitting Onoki when Madara's Susanos could not? Summons, are you kidding me? 



> Are you implying that Onoki received direct hits from these attacks? Does he have mountain level durability now?


Are you implying he was not within the concussive radius of the crashing Meteor or PS Slash? These force waves are several times stronger than his base-level STs based on logic alone- he survived both. 



> I already shown the kind of ST that can one-shot Onoki.


It requires Deva Path to be the only one out- just like when he uses CST or CT. Unless you have a valid argument suggesting he can utilize this level of ST even when the other paths are out? 



> In that instance Deva was exausted and was barely able to stand, as you can see in the second link.


I'm not seeing how a path is exhausted, it's a remote control corpse without the nutrients that provide energy- unless you mean Nagato? He was not exhausted as he utilized Chibaku Tensei moments after, several STs and Nagato himself utilized Samsara Heavingly Revival technique on an entire village even after using CT and his paths were all annihilated.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2013)

BT + Black Rod GG.

Pain is Onoki's worst match up. 
Bt renders his mobility useless, Absorbtion renders Jinton null. Onoki got no shot here.


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## Joakim3 (Oct 9, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Since your not Niku I'll give your a thoughtful response:



All ears



Turrin said:


> Are you really comparing whether the sun exists, to an opinion of who wins in a hypothetical battle between two fictional characters? That is nowhere near an appropriate comparison. There are plenty of things that factually state the Sun exists, while there is absolutely nothing in the manga that factually states Onoki has no chance of victory against Pain Rikudo or even more ridiculously that Pain Rikudo would stomp Onoki.



It's very comparable as you are using the lack of direct comparative evidence as a means of strengthening your standpoint. 

Every character has a chance of killing another character... it's the probobillity of said chance, of which Onoki has virtually zilch. Feats (which are the "facts" in this debate) FACTUALLY support that Gakido alone can stop Onoki numero uno attack method of _Jinton_. Feats indicate Onoki cannot fight 10+ entities with shared vision attacking with not only Taijutsu but large AoE ninjutsu and hax, while countering his _Doton_. The fact that your a calling it ridiculous that a character who canonically beat a village along with it's kage in one move, and the went on to beat it's Jin while weakened, somehow can't steam roll an old back problem Onoki (who hasn't shown feat anywhere near capable to that) shows that your own bias is clouding the evidence & implications the manga shoved down our throats when Nagato one shotted Konoha 



Turrin said:


> Facts would be if we had a statement (from the author or knowledgeable character) saying Onoki has no chance to beat Pain Rikudo and would indeed get raped. Or if we saw Onoki get rapped by an ability Pain Rikudo possesses and can utilize on the same level as the person who raped Onoki with it originally. Or if we saw Pain Rikudo actually rape Onoki in battle.



Let me put it this way..... Gai who fought against Rinnegan Obito was told he'd simply get in the way of the SM Naruto & a weekend _Pein Rikudo_. Thats how powerful the two were hyped in their match

Facts would be one ability of the Rinnegan in the form of _Fujutsu Kuyin_ completely shuts down Onoki's *primary form of attack* in the form of _Jinton_. Oh feat wise Nagato can use _Fujutsu Kuyin_ much more efficiently then a cocky Madara literally testing his jutsu out for the first time and choosing to be hit to lower his opponents moral 



Turrin said:


> Those are the only things Kishi could show that would make it a fact that Onoki gets raped by Pain Rikudo. Since none of those things have happened, Onoki being raped is not a fact. So anyone who comes into this thread and talks about the outcome is talking within the realm of opinions. Some opinions may be more effectively argued than others, and thus seem more likely to occur, but they are still just opinions.



Thats fine and I understand your argument...... but if the opinions are backed up by SUBSTANTIALLY better evidence than even if it's not bonofied facts (which is simply evidence) then one opinion has to be closer to the "truth." My opinion of the _Pein Rikudo_ raping Onoki is due to the evidence by feats showing they can counter ALL of Onoki's techs casually at that while Onoki can't do the same



Turrin said:


> Heck matches being posted in the BD pretty much demand as a prerequisite that the winner is not a fact. This is why we don't see matches like Chuunin Exams Gaara vs Chuunin Exams Lee in the BD, because we already know for a fact who the winner was, and so there is nothing to discuss. So unless the OP makes a mistake in the match they posted (in which case Mods almost always lock the thread), than we know everyone's thoughts on the outcome of the match that follow the first post will be each poster's opinions.



Well to wrap this up and put it into perspective.... Other than you and DavWiz, everyone has agreed that the _Pein Rikudo_ rape, that should say something about your standpoint


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## blk (Oct 9, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> When can they not? Kakashi's clones utilize Raiton techniques, Naruto's clones utilize all of his techniques, and Madara's clones utilize all of his techniques. People don't want to admit the fact that clones are nearly identical in power to the originals- but it is the truth.
> 
> Because his paths will be caught in the blast wave? Because there are multiple clones spreading the battlefield, and a 5-second interval between STs?



Clones are not identical in power to the original, as shown more than one time.
They have only a part of the chakra of the user, which means that certain jutsu cannot be done or will be weaker; an example is Muu who wasn't able to perform Jinton after having divided his chakra in half, or Itachi and Kisame's fake versions, who couldn't use certain jutsu and were overall weaker.
Then there is the case of Hashirama's clones, that were fodderized by a Madara that was sitting.

Deva can choose the object to repel [1 ; 2 ; 3 ; 4 ; 5]. As you can see in these instances, he can repel precise objects without affecting the surroundings.
The last link shows how even a relatively weak ST can easily destroy clones.

Also, it's not that only Deva can do something to the clones; Asura's barrages and Animal's summons can stop the clones.



> This is credible but illogical, Nagato would rather his paths all be destroyed than to sacrifice one himself. This is logical considering he didn't use any of them as feints to flank Naruto and instead remained in a defensive formation even while they were systematically erased one by one.
> 
> This was used when Deva was the only path out, and he had a 1-second charge time. Nagato's chakras are being split 6 ways and there are other paths in the radius that would be killed by this level of ST.
> 
> The other ST was utilized by Edo Nagato who had prep charge time as he was the attacker. Deva's STs don't compare to Nagato's power output especially when there are 5 other paths splitting the chakra link.



The word you are looking for is "implausible".
Anyway, Nagato didn't even have the time to prepare flanks in that situation, considering how fast the paths were going down.
Nagato values a lot Deva's body, considering of who it was, so i still think that if there is the need he will sacrafice the other paths for save Deva.

As for the rest, Deva used ST capable of multiple-buildings destruction even when all the paths were active [6 ; 7 ; 8 ; 9].
Any ST of this level would most likely one-shot, or heavily injure (to the point of being unable to fight), Onoki.





> You don't make sense. A Rock Golem cannot be absorbed- it's rock. It can stop being controlled- but it does not disappear from existence.
> 
> The idea that clones are absorbed is utter fallacy- do you honestly believe Asura Path will react to every clone advancing his way and make contact with their bodies when Onoki's speed is great enough to blitz 5 Rinnegan Madara Susanos?
> 
> Missiles and Lasers are hitting Onoki when Madara's Susanos could not? Summons, are you kidding me?



Depends if the golem is made of pure nature chakra (like the one that came from Akatsuchi's mouth and Onoki) or if it is made by manipulating the surroundings. In the latter case, i agree that it won't be absorbed.
Same goes for clones.

Asura's missiles and lasers have a big AoE, it is unlikely that Onoki's clones will dodge them easily.
They necessarily need to get rid of the summons, which can be difficult considering how much these are and that the paths will interfere while the clones try to do so.



> Are you implying he was not within the concussive radius of the crashing Meteor or PS Slash? These force waves are several times stronger than his base-level STs based on logic alone- he survived both.



He was, but he received a limited amount of force.
Anyway, i never suggested that base-level STs (the ones that Kakashi was able to take without much problems) will kill Onoki.



> I'm not seeing how a path is exhausted, it's a remote control corpse without the nutrients that provide energy- unless you mean Nagato? He was not exhausted as he utilized Chibaku Tensei moments after, several STs and Nagato himself utilized Samsara Heavingly Revival technique on an entire village even after using CT and his paths were all annihilated.



Nagato used CT before that instance.
Seriously, you can see Deva struggling to stand in the link of before.


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