# Vergo and Smoker vs Luffy and Zoro.



## Extravlad (Dec 31, 2012)

Location : SAD room

Distance : 35 meters

Vergo use his haki form.

Bonus scenario : Ace joins team 1 and Law joins team 2


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## RF (Dec 31, 2012)

Team 2 wins both scenarios.


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## Imagine (Dec 31, 2012)

Team 2 should take this. For the bonus, I think T2 still takes it. Room + swap should secure it.


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## Language of Life (Dec 31, 2012)

I actually think Team 1 takes scenario 1 and Team 2 takes scenario 2


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## Green Monkey (Dec 31, 2012)

Team 2 wins both scenarios.

Luffy>Smoker

Zoro=Vergo


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## tupadre97 (Dec 31, 2012)

Team 1 in both scenarios. Luffy cant beat Vergo, Zoro cant beat Smoker, and Law cant beat Ace.


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## Imagine (Dec 31, 2012)

tupadre97 said:


> Team 1 in both scenarios. *Luffy cant beat Vergo*, Zoro cant beat Smoker, and Law cant beat Ace.


Based on? Luffy has the durability and firepower advantage.


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## God Movement (Dec 31, 2012)

Zolo is holding Luffy's team back


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## Admiral Akainu (Dec 31, 2012)

Luffy and Zoro win the first scenario.

Second scenario goes to team 1. Ace is stronger than all of them, by quite a margin.


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## JoJo (Dec 31, 2012)

God Movement said:


> Zolo is holding Luffy's team back



TBH, theres not that much of a difference in the M3s power. Only marginal.


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## Impact (Dec 31, 2012)

Team 2 takes both scenarios with extreme diff.


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## Zyrax (Dec 31, 2012)

Team two wins both scenes. And there is no proof Ace is stronger than luffy. The only thing Ace has on him is Entie but Luffy is too Fast and Ace while holding Entei is a easy target for Law.


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## JoJo (Dec 31, 2012)

> Ace isstronger than Ace


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## RF (Dec 31, 2012)

Jojo said:


>



Typical Zyrax. 

Nothing to be surprised about.


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## Lawliet (Dec 31, 2012)

Admiral Akainu said:


> Luffy and Zoro win the first scenario.
> 
> Second scenario goes to team 1. Ace is stronger than all of them, by quite a margin.



Sorry to break the news for you, but Law can stomp Ace.. 

on topic, team Luffy wins both scenarios..


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## Dr. White (Dec 31, 2012)

Luffy and Zoro have more synergy, me thinks this gives them the win. Vergo and Smoker also don't have the Range balance team SH does, due to Luffy's stretching ability and Zoro's swordsmanship.


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## TrainerRed (Jan 1, 2013)

Scenario 1: Vergo and Smoker 

Scenario 2: Luffy, Zoro, and Law

The only thing from Luffy that is breaking through Vergo's Armament is Grizzly Magnum and Vergo isn't dumb enough to get hit by that. It took an island wide "room" plus haki from Law took break through Vergo's CoA, Zoro isn't delivering anything close to that level of power.


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## SsjAzn (Jan 1, 2013)

Smoker and Vergo with very high difficulty


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## Green Monkey (Jan 1, 2013)

RedDogAkainu said:


> Scenario 1: Vergo and Smoker
> 
> Scenario 2: Luffy, Zoro, and Law
> 
> *The only thing from Luffy that is breaking through Vergo's Armament is Grizzly Magnum* and Vergo isn't dumb enough to get hit by that. It took an island wide "room" plus haki from Law took break through Vergo's CoA, Zoro isn't delivering anything close to that level of power.



Why do you think that? Law's attack was just a normal slash with his room larger. Would make no sense if the only way Luffy could match that output was through doing an incredibly slow and prepped attack like Grizzly Magnum or EGG. Red Hawk would definitely go through Vergo's haki. At least until Vergo's COA tanks something that's actually impressive. All we know is that Pre-Skip Law couldn't break through it.


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## TrainerRed (Jan 1, 2013)

Red Hawk couldn't even put down a fodder like Hody Jones, no way is that doing anything to a haki monster like Vergo. Now that I think about it would take a good amount of hits with Grizzly Magnums or Red Hawks to put Vergo down since a weak like CC can still move after such a devastating attack. Also considering the fact that Luffy and Zoro have rookie level haki so their attack effectivness will be reduced significantly against a CoA adept like Vergo.

Sanji got his leg, the strongest part of his body, fractured from base form Vergo. A couple of successful hits from Vergo and Luffy will be out cold.


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## Heretic (Jan 1, 2013)

Not certain. Luffy can edge it out against Vergo, and Smoker can edge it out against Zoro.

But then, an extremely weakened Luffy vs. a very weakened Smoker. I'd say Smoker's condition could be a bit better since Luffy's only about a hair better than Vergo and Smoker is a bit better than Zoro, but Luffy has more willpower, which'll let him fight harder.

I'm actually gonna say double-KO.


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## Green Monkey (Jan 1, 2013)

RedDogAkainu said:


> Red Hawk couldn't even put down a fodder like Hody Jones, no way is that doing anything to a haki monster like Vergo. Now that I think about it would take a good amount of hits with Grizzly Magnums or Red Hawks to put Vergo down since a weak like CC can still move after such a devastating attack. *Also considering the fact that Luffy and Zoro have rookie level haki so their attack effectivness will be reduced significantly against a CoA adept like Vergo.*
> 
> Sanji got his leg, the strongest part of his body, fractured from base form Vergo. A couple of successful hits from Vergo and Luffy will be out cold.



I didn't say it would put down Vergo, but it sure as hell would break through his COA which literally has no defensive feats. Vergo was getting punched around by Smoker and Sanji made him bleed rather easily. Nothing his COA has done would indicate someone like Luffy who is more physically powerful and offensively capable than both smoker and sanji wouldn't be able to break through it. 

A couple of successful hits? Wtf? Why in the world would you think this? Luffy has always had incredibly high endurance for his tier and Vergo has not shown much of an offensive output.

I'm a fan of Vergo, but people are acting like his COA would block someone as strong as Luffy when all we know about it is Dofla thought it was strong enough to defeat a vastly underestimated Law. Nothing indicates that it would be strong enough to defend against Red Hawk. Nor does it make much sense for Luffy to not be able to hurt an opponent his peer one shotted. Saying Luffy won't do any damage without landing an Elephant attack is basically saying he will lose, since he will never land one of those attacks unless his opponent is injured.


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## Kishido (Jan 1, 2013)

Team 1 in both scenarios... In 2 with lesser difficult cuz I think Ace is understimated as fuck


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## Admiral Akainu (Jan 1, 2013)

Luffy is stronger than Vergo.

Smoker and Zoro are basically equals.

Luffy and Zoro win.


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## Shinthia (Jan 1, 2013)

imo
Luffy and Vergo fight lik will like Lucci fight . Luffy will win but cant move after that.
Smoker stands in between Luffy and Zoro atm. 
So, Smoker wins against Zoro.
Than as Smoker is the last man standing team G5 wins.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 1, 2013)

Imagine said:


> That's not what it required, that's what Law decided to bring out. We have no proof if Law could or couldn't slice Vergo in half with a regular sword slash.
> 
> *Yeah, which is a cutting attack. Luffy has blunt trauma resistance, Vergo is melee fighter. You do the math.*



Haki says fuck Luffy's blunt resistance damage. Idk why ppl think thats gonna save Luffy. It didnt help him against Lucci and he didnt even have haki.


Admiral Akainu said:


> Luffy is stronger than Vergo.
> 
> Smoker and Zoro are basically equals.
> 
> Luffy and Zoro win.


Luffy is not stronger than Vergo and their is no way in hell Zoro is equal to the current Smoker.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 1, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Haki says fuck Luffy's blunt resistance damage. Idk why ppl think thats gonna save Luffy. It didnt help him against Lucci and he didnt even have haki.
> 
> Luffy is not stronger than Vergo and their is no way in hell Zoro is equal to the current Smoker.



Akainu's Haki said fuck Haki when Marco and Vista failed to damage him. 

What has Vergo shown that puts him above Luffy in strength anyway? With Haki, I'd put Zoro at least around Smoker's level.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 1, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> Akainu's Haki said fuck Haki when Marco and Vista failed to damage him.
> 
> What has Vergo shown that puts him above Luffy in strength anyway? With Haki, I'd put Zoro at least around Smoker's level.



So u think Luffy's haki is so strong it can completely block Vergo's haki like Akainu did? Gtfo bro. Vergo obviously has better haki than Luffy. I cant believe I'm saying this but stop wanking Luffy. And no Zoro is not as strong as Smoker, Luffy is. Zoro is not beating one of Luffy's main rivals now as so many on NF like to say. Not to mention Smoker is faster than Luffy (remember when they were running to where CC was Luffy had to run so fast to catch up to him the floor caught on fire).


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## Pink Matter (Jan 1, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> So u think Luffy's haki is so strong it can completely block Vergo's haki like Akainu did? Gtfo bro. Vergo obviously has better haki than Luffy. I cant believe I'm saying this but stop wanking Luffy. And no Zoro is not as strong as Smoker, Luffy is. Zoro is not beating one of Luffy's main rivals now as so many on NF like to say. Not to mention Smoker is faster than Luffy (remember when they were running to where CC was Luffy had to run so fast to catch up to him the floor caught on fire).



No I'm saying it reduces the effectiveness of Vergo's Haki. Akainu's Haki didn't completely block Vista's or Marco's Hakis, since he felt discomfort from the attacks, unless you're telling me you think Akainu's Haki is way better than Marco's. 

I'm not wanking Luffy, I'm simply saying Vergo's not above him. What do you think puts Smoker above Zoro anyway? Can you present the panel of the particular instance where Luffy tried catching up to Smoker?


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## tupadre97 (Jan 1, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> No I'm saying it reduces the effectiveness of Vergo's Haki. Akainu's Haki didn't completely block Vista's or Marco's Hakis, since he felt discomfort from the attacks, unless you're telling me you think Akainu's Haki is way better than Marco's.
> 
> I'm not wanking Luffy, I'm simply saying Vergo's not above him. What do you think puts Smoker above Zoro anyway? Can you present the panel of the particular instance where Luffy tried catching up to Smoker?



Vergo is above Luffy stop denying it. How much stronger do u think Luffy is compared to Sanji and Smoker? And u know damn well the chapter when Luffy and Smoker were running to CC. I know u read this arc the same time as everybody else. Smoker flew there and Luffy was tired bcuz he had to run so fast there the ground caught on fire.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 1, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Vergo is above Luffy stop denying it. How much stronger do u think Luffy is compared to Sanji and Smoker? And u know damn well the chapter when Luffy and Smoker were running to CC. I know u read this arc the same time as everybody else. Smoker flew there and Luffy was tired bcuz he had to run so fast there the ground caught on fire.



I don't understand what you're so worked up about. I'm merely stating an opinion, just like you. You think Vergo's above Luffy, fine. That doesn't mean you're right though. And you answered my question with another question, awesome retort. But I'll answer your question. I think Luffy can beat Sanji high difficulty and Smoker with extreme difficulty. 

You claimed that Smoker is faster than Luffy, I'm simply asking you to show me the panel where the instance supports your claim. What's so hard about that?


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## Imagine (Jan 1, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Haki says fuck Luffy's blunt resistance damage. Idk why ppl think thats gonna save Luffy. It didnt help him against Lucci and he didnt even have haki.


Yeah because Luffy doesn't have haki of his own right? And lolwut? Luffy's rubber body is one of the main reasons why Lucci didn't fuck up his internal organs. It's saved his life plenty of time. And you're saying Lucci doesn't have haki when Luffy didn't back then either...yeah.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 1, 2013)

Imagine said:


> Yeah because Luffy doesn't have haki of his own right? And lolwut? Luffy's rubber body is one of the main reasons why Lucci didn't fuck up his internal organs. It's saved his life plenty of time. And you're saying Lucci doesn't have haki when Luffy didn't back then either...yeah.



Vergos haki>luffys his blunt damage resistance is doing shit and he would get his skull cracked by vergos bambo. 

Vergos durability>luffys.

That being said Luffys team wins both scenarios.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> I don't understand what you're so worked up about. I'm merely stating an opinion, just like you. You think Vergo's above Luffy, fine. That doesn't mean you're right though. And you answered my question with another question, awesome retort. But I'll answer your question. I think Luffy can beat Sanji high difficulty and Smoker with extreme difficulty.
> 
> *You claimed that Smoker is faster than Luffy, I'm simply asking you to show me the panel where the instance supports your claim. What's so hard about that?*



Bcuz I know u know the chapter it happened in.


Imagine said:


> Yeah because Luffy doesn't have haki of his own right? And lolwut? Luffy's rubber body is one of the main reasons why Lucci didn't fuck up his internal organs. It's saved his life plenty of time. And you're saying Lucci doesn't have haki when Luffy didn't back then either...yeah.


U guys are completely overwanking Luffy's blunt resistance damage. It will not help Luffy in a fight against Vergo bcuz Vergo is just too strong for it to even matter. His haki and physical strength are better than Luffy so it cant possibly help him here. There's just no way for Luffy to beat Vergo.


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Vergos haki>luffys his blunt damage resistance is doing shit and he would get his skull cracked by vergos bambo.
> 
> Vergos durability>luffys.
> 
> That being said Luffys team wins both scenarios.


How do they win? If Vergo>Luffy Smoker>Zoro Ace>Law how can they win? Care to explain?


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## RF (Jan 2, 2013)

There is nothing to support your oblivious theory that Vergo is superior to Luffy,except for maybe in haki,but that wouldn't prevent Luffy from wrecking his shit.

Smoker was dealing with Vergo without many problems,and he only lost because he let Vergo beat him so Law can get his revenge. (I suppose)

You're heavily overestimating Vergo,there is *NOTHING* that supports your fan ridden theory that he is >Luffy.


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## Extravlad (Jan 2, 2013)

If Luffy is stronger than Vergo you can change "Monster Trio" in "Luffy and his pets."


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## grinninggrizzly (Jan 2, 2013)

RedDogAkainu do you honestly believe that vergo's leg wasn't hardened when he fractured sanji's leg? I'd go as far as remarking that he was all black underneath that coat otherwise sanji wouldn't suspect that he was a mass of iron.

Vergo is vastly overestimated. Law beat him, proving he's not above the rookies. To think Law is the only one above him is to miss the whole point of that specific chapter.

That said, vergo takes damage really well. I'm fairly certain he'd withstand, though not come out unharmed, luffy's red hawk much like he did sanji's diable jambe and law's counter shock. Still luffy can still hurt him significantly with his hardened heavy hitters and combos. Luffy shouldn't fight smoker in this matchup for obvious reasons. If he fails to prioritize breaking that jutte chances are smoker might get him with it.

I have seen nothing to suggest smoker is stronger than zoro, literally zero. His seastone would be useless against him so this would come down to a physical throwdown. Is smoker physically more impressive than zoro? I think not. Can his jutte block everything zoro will throw at him? I don't think so as well. So IMO smoker with his showing can't best zoro.

And in the even that zoro fights vergo, i can't for the life of me see why it is that folks think he can't cut him. This notion that only island busters can damage vergo is misplaced. Not only is it unverifiable that that extent of collateral was mandatory and not just for show but with law's ability in mind, subjecting brute force users to the same standard would amount to false equivalence.


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## RF (Jan 2, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> If Luffy is stronger than Vergo you can change "Monster Trio" in "Luffy and his pets."



Funny how you claim that Luffy is superior to Law,yet you are against the idea of Luffy being more powerful than Vergo.


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## Extravlad (Jan 2, 2013)

Red Guardian :  Luffy is a physicall fighter, Law isn't he beat Vergo with is DF.

Vergo no bamboo stick and no full body armement > Sanji.

How do you want Luffy can beat Vergo with bamboo strick and full body armement ?


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## RF (Jan 2, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Red Guardian :  Luffy is a physicall fighter, Law isn't he beat Vergo with is DF.
> 
> Vergo no bamboo stick and no full body armement > Sanji.
> 
> How do you want Luffy can beat Vergo with bamboo strick and full body armement ?




First of all,Vergo used armament against Sanji.
Sanji commented on him being a mass of iron.

Second of all,Luffy simply can beat Vergo. His speed is humongous and he can keep his distance with Vergo,and he has enough power in his arsenal to bring him down.

Even normal jet pistols should hurt him.


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## Extravlad (Jan 2, 2013)

Vergo used CoA but not Full body armament and he doesn't use his bamboo stick, Vergo nickname is "Demon Bamboo".

Vergo is fast too he is a soru user. 



> o,and he has enough power in his arsenal to bring him down.


Based on what ? Vergo not was put K.O. He's still stand after fighting Sanji, Law and Smoker


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

Red Guardian said:


> There is nothing to support your oblivious theory that Vergo is superior to Luffy,except for maybe in haki,but that wouldn't prevent Luffy from wrecking his shit.
> 
> Smoker was dealing with Vergo without many problems,and he only lost because he let Vergo beat him so Law can get his revenge. (I suppose)
> 
> You're heavily overestimating Vergo,there is *NOTHING* that supports your fan ridden theory that he is >Luffy.



Vergo broke Sanji's leg in one kick. *ONE FUCKING KICK*. There is no way in hell Luffy is that much stronger than Sanji. Ur acting as if Luffy is worlds above Zoro and Sanji when he isnt. He would get his shit rocked fighting Vergo.


Red Guardian said:


> First of all,Vergo used armament against Sanji.
> Sanji commented on him being a mass of iron.
> 
> Second of all,Luffy simply can beat Vergo. His speed is humongous and he can keep his distance with Vergo,and he has enough power in his arsenal to bring him down.
> ...



How fast do u think Luffy is? Do u honestly think he wont get hit once by Vergo? Wtf kinda logic is that?


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## Imagine (Jan 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> U guys are completely overwanking Luffy's blunt resistance damage. It will not help Luffy in a fight against Vergo bcuz Vergo is just too strong for it to even matter. His haki and physical strength are better than Luffy so it cant possibly help him here. There's just no way for Luffy to beat Vergo.


Please show me where Vergo's physical strength is > Luffy's. Go on. I can wait. And you're saying Smoker can hurt Vergo but Luffy can't? lol.


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## RF (Jan 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Vergo broke Sanji's leg in one kick. *ONE FUCKING KICK*. There is no way in hell Luffy is that much stronger than Sanji. Ur acting as if Luffy is worlds above Zoro and Sanji when he isnt. He would get his shit rocked fighting Vergo.
> 
> 
> How fast do u think Luffy is? Do u honestly think he wont get hit once by Vergo? Wtf kinda logic is that?



Vergo broke Sanji's leg with armament after them clashing with their legs for some time. And Sanji wasn't really damaged. Your saying it as if Vergo ripped Sanji's leg off. But that wasn't the case. Sanji was perfectly fine afterwards.
Also,Smoker fared fall against Vergo,he was actually beating him,but then he LET Vergo beat him.


And Luffy will definitely avoid some of Vergo's attacks with his speed.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

Red Guardian said:


> Vergo broke Sanji's leg with armament after them clashing with their legs for some time. And Sanji wasn't really damaged. Your saying it as if Vergo ripped Sanji's leg off. But that wasn't the case. Sanji was perfectly fine afterwards.
> Also,Smoker fared fall against Vergo,he was actually beating him,but then he LET Vergo beat him.
> 
> 
> And Luffy will definitely avoid some of Vergo's attacks with his speed.



No he broke his leg with one kick. Only Sanji hit him b4 but the first time he kicked him he broke his leg. And Sanji was limping afterwards he didnt tank that shit. Luffy has no chance of winning here. Maybe against base Vergo but not full body.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 2, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Vergo used CoA but not Full body armament and he doesn't use his bamboo stick, Vergo nickname is "Demon Bamboo".
> 
> Vergo is fast too he is a soru user.
> 
> ...



Full body armament simply allows him to cover his entire body with CoA, it doesn't mean his CoA suddenly becomes even more durable. I don't see why Vergo needed to use full body armament anyway if he only needed his leg to match Sanji's kick.


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## Sayonara (Jan 2, 2013)

SHs should take it, Zoro to defeat Vergo and Luffy to beat Smoker.

At worse Zoro holds Vergo and Luffy eventually joins in.

I know majority will see it differently but I am pretty confident that Smoker is the stronger of the two and more of a threat than Vergo.


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## RF (Jan 2, 2013)

Sayonara said:


> SHs should take it, Zoro to defeat Vergo and Luffy to beat Smoker.
> 
> At worse Zoro holds Vergo and Luffy eventually joins in.



Too bad most of the people here think that Vergo is superior to Luffy so expect to have a thousand replies on how you are wrong and how you suck.


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## Sayonara (Jan 2, 2013)

Vergo was meant to be portrayed as super strong bad ass and Oda did well with him. But I think ultimately its that really settled it for me. 

Pre-Ts Law took an ass whooping from Vergo and I imagine it would be no different if any of M3 took him at that time. Jump post TS and Law cleaves him in half, of course Law DF is big plus but the emphasis is really on how its not the same as its used to be its been 2 years now new era big players haven't been sitting on their asses.

Odas been trying to get the message across of how strong everyone's become and I don't think it was any different here . Vergo would have been big fish in pond Pre-ts but we've moved onto the big sea now and while Vergo is still very formidable there are much larger fish out there now. So while that doesn't reveal who could beat who, its at least enough to tell me Vergo isn't in his own special class and falls into same range than these other guys.


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## Coruscation (Jan 2, 2013)

^^Most people don't really think Vergo > Luffy. It's just a very vocal and very, very obnoxious minority consisting mainly of tupadre97. Don't take his nonsense as representative of the board's more well reasoned members. It should be crystal clear to anyone with half a brain that if Smoker can beat up Vergo just fine with his regular punches Luffy would do the same and more with G2.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> Full body armament simply allows him to cover his entire body with CoA, it doesn't mean his CoA suddenly becomes even more durable. I don't see why Vergo needed to use full body armament anyway if he only needed his leg to match Sanji's kick.



Wtf? Of course he's stronger in full body form. And if he can hand Sanji with just his leg what chance does Luffy have? Is Luffy really that much stronger than Sanji?


Sayonara said:


> SHs should take it, *Zoro to defeat Vergo and Luffy to beat Smoker.*
> 
> At worse Zoro holds Vergo and Luffy eventually joins in.
> 
> I know majority will see it differently but I am pretty confident that Smoker is the stronger of the two and more of a threat than Vergo.


Wtf? If Vergo is stronger than Smoker I guess ur trying to say the Zoro is also stronger? For that matter I guess u think he is also stronger than Luffy huh?


Coruscation said:


> ^^Most people don't really think Vergo > Luffy. It's just a very vocal and very, very obnoxious minority consisting mainly of tupadre97. Don't take his nonsense as representative of the board's more well reasoned members. It should be crystal clear to anyone with half a brain that if Smoker can beat up Vergo just fine with his regular punches Luffy would do the same and more with G2.


How about instead of talking down to me u bring some valid points on how Luffy can beat Vergo bcuz I've given u several reasons why Luffy cant win and all ur doing is just ignoring my opinion and just sticking to urs without any proof. So please stop being ignorant and actually give me a reason as to how Luffy can win otherwise stfu.

Vergo broke Sanji's leg in one kick ppl. How much stronger than Sanji do u think Luffy is? Do u really think Luffy is so strong Vergo can hurt him or he's so fast he cant hit him? Luffy couldnt even get past Monet and even the yeti cool bros could dodge him. Luffy is fast but he's not _that_ fast. Vergo can beat him in base form and who knows how hard Luffy would get owned if he fought him in full body form. Luffy has absolutely nothing to put him down with but all Vergo has to do is hit him a few times and its all over. There's just no way Luffy can beat him.


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## Coruscation (Jan 2, 2013)

I'm not addressing your argument because you've shown time and again that you wouldn't know what a proper argument is if it hit you in the face. You obviously have no reading comprehension because all your descriptions is completely lacking contex and misleading. Vergo cracked a bone when Sanji was trying to block his with his foreleg. What the hell do you think would happen if Sanji tried to block a Red Hawk with his foreleg, when Luffy uses both Hardening and G2 at once and Sanji has neither? Let alone something like an Elephant Gun? Worse yet, if he tried to block a slash from Zoro in that manner? Or even Radical Beam? Try to use your brain for once even if it's hard. Blocking a powerful attack with a bare leg can be dangerous. Sanji didn't know how hard Vergo could hit. He was exchanging kicks with Vergo just fine prior to and after that, he sent him flying with DJ, he was making him bleed. You are intentionally describing the situation to make it sound like Sanji was being crapped on when in fact his performance was fine. The same exact thing and worse would happen if Sanji went up against Luffy and tried to block a powerful attack with his bare leg. It's not because Luffy is THAT MUCH STRONGER than him or because Vergo was but because, time for a shocker, trying to block an attack that's too strong can end up getting you hurt. If you could just wrap your head around that simple concept it might shed you some much needed clarity on the issue.

You're completely deluded in your sea of Law and Vergo wanking and Luffy downplaying. Don't have a heart attack when Luffy finally cuts loose and puts doubters like you in their place.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

@Coruscation Vergo broke Sanji's leg with a basic armament kick. He didnt even use hardening. U can't equate that to a fucking red hawk, theres no way in hell that was one of Vergo's strongest moves. Luffy would never break Sanji's leg's with any of his attacks. There is no way in hell Luffy could ever be that much stronger than Sanji. And no they werent exchanging kicks. Sanji kicked him twice then the first time he clashed with Vergo he got his fucking leg broke, reread the damn chapter. Sanji has never had his leg broken b4 in a fight. That is no small feat, I mean its Sanji's leg we're talking about here. Those are his main weapons and they were broke in one hit. Its like breaking Zoro's swords in one hit. If that happened u would be saying the one who did it was stronger than Zoro but for some reason u guys are in denial about what happened to Sanji. Ur just trying to fight with me instead of logically trying to make ur case. How about u use ur brain b4 u start talking shit Corus, ur the one that deluded here. I'm not wanking anybody. As a matter of fact Luffy is my favorite character, but I realize his limits. I'm not the wanker here. Ur the one thats overwanking Luffy for whatever reason.


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## Coruscation (Jan 2, 2013)

> Vergo broke Sanji's leg with a basic armament kick. He didnt even use hardening. U can't equate that to a fucking red hawk, theres no way in hell that was one of Vergo's strongest moves.



Of course he used Hardening. You think he would use it on Tashigi but not on Sanji who has just sent him flying and made him bleed? Yeah, right. And sure, it wasn't one of his absolute best moves, but it was a strong attack that Sanji tried to deal with without using his own power-ups. Sanji could have countered with DJ or Hell's Memories, or simply dodged. But of course you don't acknowledge that because it would shatter your bizarre delusions.



> Luffy would never break Sanji's leg's with any of his attacks. There is no way in hell Luffy could ever be that much stronger than Sanji. And no they werent exchanging kicks. Sanji kicked him twice then the first time he clashed with Vergo he got his fucking leg broke, reread the damn chapter.



Says who? You? Ever heard of the circular reasoning fallacy? Luffy is weaker than Vergo because Vergo broke Sanji's leg which Luffy couldn't do because he's weaker than Vergo. Sorry, that's not a valid argument. Sanji had tons of bones in his body broken by Mr. 2, why the fuck wouldn't Luffy be able to crack Sanji's bones if Sanji tried to block powered up attacks from Luffy in his own base form? There isn't a single reason.

No, it is you who needs to re-read the chapter. They exchanged plenty of kicks. Before _and_ after the bone-cracking incident. Re-read it, this time with your reading comprehension on - if you have any - and you'll note this simple fact.



> Those are his main weapons and they were broke in one hit. Its like breaking Zoro's swords in one hit



No, it's not. Not even close. They *weren't* broken, for one. He got a small crack in a bone. He KEPT CLASHING WITH VERGO AFTER THAT. For two, Zoro's swords are top class metal. Shusui is supposed to be unbreakable. A human body will always be a human body. Since you bring up Zoro, how about you respond to my comparison instead of ignoring it? What would happen if Zoro used a powerful slash and Sanji tried to block it with his leg? Answer that question right now. Would Sanji's leg get badly hurt? If you answer anything else than "yes" you're an idiot.

Get it into your head - *trying to take strong attacks with your regular body can have bad consequences*. Sanji tried to block an attack that he should have chosen to dodge or counter, not knowing how strong it would be. If he tried do the same exact thing in response to strong attacks from Luffy & Zoro there is absolutely no reason that it wouldn't go just as badly for him. None whatsoever.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> *Of course he used Hardening*. You think he would use it on Tashigi but not on Sanji who has just sent him flying and made him bleed? Yeah, right. And sure, it wasn't one of his absolute best moves, but it was a strong attack that Sanji tried to deal with without using his own power-ups. Sanji could have countered with DJ or Hell's Memories, or simply dodged. But of course you don't acknowledge that because it would shatter your bizarre delusions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does that look like hardening to u? What kind of technique could Sanji have used to block that? He was obviously using haki so what else did u think he could do to counter that? And yes Luffy will never break Sanji's legs bcuz they are pretty much equal in terms of power (well maybe he could if he used G3 like he did on Lucci but Sanji would never let himself get hit by that). There is no way in hell Luffy will ever be so strong he can break Sanji's leg in one kick, thats completely ridiculous to think that. If u can break Sanji's legs in one kick(which has never been done b4 its a crazy feat) thats pretty much all the evidence u need to prove that u are stronger than him.

And u obviously have forgotten what happened in chapters 680 and 681 bcuz Sanji had hit him twice b4 he finally countered with the kick above and when he did he *broke his fucking leg.* Nobody has ever done that b4 that is an insane feat stop downplaying it. And yes they were broken, Sanji was limping after the fight ur acting like he just tanked it which he didnt. And Mr. 2 never broke Sanji's legs thats a false claim. He might have broken his ribs iirc but that is not the strongest part of his body. That would be his legs which Vergo broke in one hit. U keep trying to say "well what if somebody used their strongest attack on Sanji's leg? they would break then". Well guess the fuck what, Vergo used a basic armament kick and broke his leg. I'm pretty sure if somebody used their strongest attack on Sanji's legs they would be badly damaged, maybe even to the point of breaking his bones. But as I've said b4 *VERGO DID NOT USE HIS STRONGEST ATTACK*. It was just a regular attack and he broke his leg. That should tell u right there how much stronger Vergo is than him.


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## Coruscation (Jan 2, 2013)

> Does that look like hardening to u?





Does that look like hardening to you? It was. Oda's consistency isn't perfect. Use logical reasoning to explain why he would use it against G5 fodder and a weakling like Tashigi but not against Sanji. Until you are capable of such, kindly shut up.



> What kind of technique could Sanji have used to block that? He was obviously using haki so what else did u think he could do to counter that? And yes Luffy will never break Sanji's legs bcuz they are pretty much equal in terms of power



Can you read? I said he could counter or dodge. Counter, as in counter_attack_ with DJ/Hell's Memories and dodge by moving his body out of the way of the attack. Was that too hard for you to figure out by yourself? I guess so.

More circular reasoning. EXPLAIN WHY LUFFY CAN'T DO IT. Use logic, evidence, quantifiable feats. Explain carefully why breaking bones is some kind of impossible taboo. It doesn't become true because you keep saying it. What is so special about bones? Please provide this wondrous insight. Sanji nearly broke his legs on a PX with his own kicking force but Luffy with multiple power ups attacking a base Sanji can't do it? What the hell are you basing that on? Again: _evidence_. You need it.



> And Mr. 2 never broke Sanji's legs thats a false claim. He might have broken his ribs iirc but that is not the strongest part of his body



Ribs are bones too. My point is to illustrate that breaking bones is not some kind of impossibility. No he didn't break his legs because Mr. 2 was not as strong as Vergo in comparison to Sanji. You know when Sanji's legs almost _did_ break? When he kicked a Pacifista. His OWN KICKING FORCE, in just a handful of attacks, in combination with an extremely hard object almost broke his own leg. Clear cut proof right there that it's perfectly possible for Sanji's legs to break if they suffer great force in combination with extreme hardness. Which amazingly enough is exactly what happened with Vergo.



> There is no way in hell Luffy will ever be so strong he can break Sanji's leg in one kick, thats completely ridiculous to think that.



I have said nothing about one (basic) kick. More evidence of you being completely incapable of participating in anything resembling a well reasoned debate.



> And u obviously have forgotten what happened in chapters 680 and 681 bcuz Sanji had hit him twice b4 he finally countered with the kick above and when he did he broke his fucking leg. Nobody has ever done that b4 that is an insane feat stop downplaying it. And yes they were broken



They were clashing before too. And after. How about you post the handful of pages before that one? And the pages after, please? Could you do that? The pages where they repeatedly clash with more kicks? Or are you going to keep ignoring them since they prove your shitty argument wrong?

No they were not broken. Damaged isn't the same as broken.



> U keep trying to say "well what if somebody used their strongest attack on Sanji's leg? they would break then". Well guess the fuck what, Vergo used a basic armament kick and broke his leg.



Zoro would hardly need to use his strongest attack. Nor would Luffy, it doesn't take Elephant Gatling to crack a leg bone on Sanji. And Vergo's Armament is anything but "basic". I guess you missed this too, but you see, Vergo's Armament is his absolute greatest quality as a fighter. It is so strong that he can tear Smoker's jutte, reinforced with its own Armament, clean in half with a powerful staff blow.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

^^ I... I dont even know what to say to this. Ur just grasping at straws at this point. I guess I'll just have to say it again. Luffy will *NEVER, EVER BE STRONG ENOUGH TO BREAK SANJI'S LEG IN ONE KICK*. Thats a complete insult to Sanji and his strength. If Vergo is strong enough to break Sanji's leg in one kick and Luffy isn't then how the fuck can Luffy beat him? Do u honestly think Luffy is so much stronger and faster than Sanji that he wont get his limbs broken just like Sanji? And when he does get them broken, which *will* happen if he fights Vergo do u think he will just be fine and keep fighting like its nothing? Come on just stop ur not even making sense anymore.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> ^^ I... I dont even know what to say to this. Ur just grasping at straws at this point. I guess I'll just have to say it again. Luffy will *NEVER, EVER BE STRONG ENOUGH TO BREAK SANJI'S LEG IN ONE KICK*. Thats a complete insult to Sanji and his strength. If Vergo is strong enough to break Sanji's leg in one kick and Luffy isn't then how the fuck can Luffy beat him? Do u honestly think Luffy is so much stronger and faster than Sanji that he wont get his limbs broken just like Sanji? And when he does get them broken, which *will* happen if he fights Vergo do u think he will just be fine and keep fighting like its nothing? Come on just stop ur not even making sense anymore.



What do you mean by one kick? You mean a basic kick with no Haki or Gears? Luffy doesn't even specialize in kicking so of course not. But tell me why Luffy wouldn't be able to break Sanji's leg with a Red Hawk or an Elephant Gun, please refrain from  answering the question with another question like "Do you honestly think Luffy's that far above Sanji?"


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## Coruscation (Jan 2, 2013)

Sanji _nearly broke his own legs_ by kicking a Pacifista 3-4 times. That's a fact. How about you address that fact, and explain with logic and quantifiable feats why a powered up Luffy (with extreme hardness and physical force, the *same exact things that have cracked Sanji's legs twice already*) attacking a base Sanji could not do the same thing? Of course you won't, because you are very obviously not capable of engaging in a normal debate where evidence and logical reasoning is used to counter the opponent's arguments, and ignoring such things as prove you wrong is a "tactic" frowned upon.

Law and Smoker both took several hits from Vergo. If they can do it, especially Law who is not quite as much a physical specimen, so can Luffy. That's all the proof -I- need. You, of course, are the one who needs to bring actual evidence to back up your ridiculous assertions. As for speed and dodging ability, Luffy's primary power up technique is a move where he accelerates his bloodflow to give himself incredibly high speed. Sanji and Smoker, who do not have such power ups tailored toward speed, both showed the ability to consistently avoid getting hit by Vergo. So Luffy has no problems in that department. And for attack power, Smoker was roughing up Vergo just fine with his Hardened punches. Luffy has an additional power up where Smoker has only one, so again there is no reason to believe he would run into crippling problems in that area. I can clearly point to why Luffy wins. Your argument amounts to that if he gets hit, he gets crippled, which is to begin with a completely faulty premise because Smoker and Law took multiple hits and were not. Moreover, there are many enemies that taking a single hit from is extremely dangerous. Zoro is one. Luffy is capable of beating Zoro. Akainu and Magellan are two others, and Luffy will be able to beat both sooner or later. So it's safe to say that you're just regurgitating a bunch of bullshit and have no actual argument based in facts and logic.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> What do you mean by one kick? You mean a basic kick with no Haki or Gears? Luffy doesn't even specialize in kicking so of course not. But tell me why Luffy wouldn't be able to break Sanji's leg with a Red Hawk or an Elephant Gun, please refrain from  answering the question with another question like "Do you honestly think Luffy's that far above Sanji?"


I said above that if Luffy used his strongest attacks he could break his leg like he did against Lucci (I had forgotten about that feat b4). What I'm trying to say and what u ppl are clearly ignoring is the fact that Vergo broke his leg with a basic kick. I dont give a darn if it had haki or not its a fucking basic kick for Vergo. And Luffy will never be strong enough to break Sanji's legs with any one of his basic attacks. So that would clearly mean that Vergo is stronger than Luffy right? And if Luffy is just about as durable as Sanji wouldnt that mean Vergo can break his limbs in one or a few hits also? I would certainly think so bcuz their is no reason to think Luffy has waaaay more durablity than Sanji thats just nonsense, they're practically equals. Also Luffy isnt that much faster or stronger than Sanji so how is Luffy gonna put Vergo down b4 he gets hit a couple of times? We've seen that Vergo is so strong just him counterattacking u can completely fuck u over so how is Luffy supposed to beat him? Red hawk wont put Vergo down seeing how he is obviously more durable than Hody and their is no way in hell Vergo is just gonna let Luffy hit him with any G3. And even that might not put down Vergo
in base form. With his full body haki who knows how much durable and powerful Vergo. If he was so strong that in his base form he could beat Sanji and Smoker, who are both practically Luffy's equals, then what chance does Luffy has? Restrict the full body haki and Luffy *might* have a chance to win if he's lucky. He might win with extreme difficulty against base Vergo seeing how Smoker seemed to have a chance to beat him in base if he was fighting solely to beat Vergo and not overexerting himself to get Law's heart back.

@Corus Just stfu. Ur acting like I'm trying to say Luffy cannot break his legs if he uses his strongest attacks (like an elephant gun for example) when I have clearly said he could. Go back and read my posts. I said that Luffy cannot break his legs with basic attacks (like an armament whip for example). Ur just trying to twist my words for the sake of arguing just stfu is getting really annoying now. And what makes u think Smoker's hits were as strong as Vergo's? Last time I checked Vergo tanked his attacks like every other attack that hit him this arc. And yes as I've said b4 in a few hits Luffy would be down. Just look at what Vergo did to Law and Smoker. They got fucked up. Ur acting like they were perfectly fine after they got beat by Vergo. Last time I checked they were laid out on the ground after getting their shit kicked by Vergo. The same exact thing would happen to Luffy bcuz he is not more durable or faster than either one of them.


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## Coruscation (Jan 2, 2013)

No, you are the one who have not been reading my posts. My argument from the very start was that if Sanji tried to stop a powerful attack - not a basic kick - from Luffy the way he did Vergo's, he would end up in a bad position. Therefore it does not in any way whatsoever mean Vergo > Luffy. Vergo's MAIN POWER IS HIS HAKI. That is the reason Vergo + Haki > Luffy + Haki; Vergo specializes in COA. Luffy + G2 + Haki > Vergo + Haki just like Law + DF + Haki > Vergo + Haki. Even for you this shouldn't be impossible to grasp. An attack with Haki from Vergo -is- a powerful attack, because his Haki is his main strength. As for me twisting your words? Here's a direct quote from you:

_"Luffy would never break Sanji's leg's with any of his attacks."_

That was your response to me saying that if Sanji tried to block Red Hawk or Elephant Gun in base, things would turn just as sour for him. So who is doing the twisting, I wonder? I'll let the audience decide.

Smoker's attacks weren't stronger than Vergo's. They were strong enough to damage Vergo. Since Luffy has an additional power up over Smoker he is strong enough to lay the hurt on Vergo with room to spare. Smoker and Law both took Hardened attacks *to the face* from Vergo and kept fighting. Law had his heart heavily squeezed on top of it. So Luffy would do just as well. I've already explained that Luffy is faster than Smoker because Luffy has a large speed powerup which is his main one, Smoker does not. Law never failed to dodge Vergo in a fair fight so I don't even need to address that. And Luffy, not more durable than Law? Luffy has Hardening which Law does not, a rubber body which Law does not and is a fighter who is more about close combat and toughing things out than Law. So please explain how and why Law is as durable as Luffy? I'm waiting. Don't forget: logic and quantifiable feats.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 2, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> I said above that if Luffy used his strongest attacks he could break his leg like he did against Lucci (I had forgotten about that feat b4). What I'm trying to say and what u ppl are clearly ignoring is the fact that Vergo broke his leg with a basic kick. I dont give a darn if it had haki or not its a fucking basic kick for Vergo. And Luffy will never be strong enough to break Sanji's legs with any one of his basic attacks. So that would clearly mean that Vergo is stronger than Luffy right? And if Luffy is just about as durable as Sanji wouldnt that mean Vergo can break his limbs in one or a few hits also? I would certainly think so bcuz their is no reason to think Luffy has waaaay more durablity than Sanji thats just nonsense, they're practically equals. Also Luffy isnt that much faster or stronger than Sanji so how is Luffy gonna put Vergo down b4 he gets hit a couple of times? We've seen that Vergo is so strong just him counterattacking u can completely fuck u over so how is Luffy supposed to beat him? Red hawk wont put Vergo down seeing how he is obviously more durable than Hody and their is no way in hell Vergo is just gonna let Luffy hit him with any G3. And even that might not put down Vergo
> in base form. With his full body haki who knows how much durable and powerful Vergo. If he was so strong that in his base form he could beat Sanji and Smoker, who are both practically Luffy's equals, then what chance does Luffy has? Restrict the full body haki and Luffy *might* have a chance to win if he's lucky. He might win with extreme difficulty against base Vergo seeing how Smoker seemed to have a chance to beat him in base if he was fighting solely to beat Vergo and not overexerting himself to get Law's heart back.



You do understand that if Vergo used Haki, it's not going to be a BASIC kick right? It's going to be a CoA-enforced kick. Also, Sanji's leg was cracked, it wasn't broken. No doubt it hurt really badly but Sanji was obviously still operational. Luffy's and Sanji's durabilities aren't even comparable. Sanji is a regular human, Luffy's body is rubber and is afforded with blunt force resistance. Also, I don't see Luffy as Sanji equals simply because of the opponents they face. Sure it's PIS that they're matched up that way but Sanji would definitely not do as well as Luffy against Lucci. 

I don't know where you're getting this from but Vergo has not completely fucked over anybody with a counterattack. Both Law and Smoker were fully functional after Vergo got chopped up. No doubt one Red Hawk would be able to put down the likes of Vergo. But I'm talking about spamming. Luffy has not faced a post-TS opponent that he hasn't smacked down with ease yet. If you haven't noticed, neither Hody nor Caesar were even giving him a challenge. 

Once again, your argument's based on your assumption that Luffy is equal to Sanji, which I do not agree with. However, I would put Luffy and Smoker at around the same level and Smoker was handling base Vergo just fine despite the fact that he was simply the diversion. Another assumption by you is that Vergo's CoA durability gets boosted up even higher despite the manga pointing towards that Vergo simply gets more coverage from his Haki.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 2, 2013)

@Corus    Did u not just read when I said that I forgot about when Luffy broke Lucci's legs? Anyway forget about that Vergo's using haki is basic for him. He's a VA for crying out aloud. That's just a regular attack for him it isnt like that was some super special secret technique that was just a regular kick form him. U do realize that Luffy is always using G2 post skip right? Why do u think he has been using G2 attacks without us seeing him charge up for them? Ur acting like G2 is some amazing power up that will make him so fast Vergo can touch which is clearly not the case. And no Law and Smoker didnt just tank his attacks like they were nothing. The few times we've seen them hit by Vergo were absolutely devastating and they were basically down for the count after those few hits. And what makes u think Law cant use hardening? He clearly has the strongest haki on PH right now and as u said b4 Oda is inconsistent sometimes so maybe he just forget to draw it in like when Vergo hit Sanji since u think Vergo was using hardening then. And who cares if Luffy is more durable than Law. Law got hit only a few times and he was down for the entire duration of Smoker's fight with Vergo. How about u come some legitimate reason as for why Luffy can beat Vergo instead of pull this shit out ur ass. I'll wait.

@Pink Matter As i've said b4 (how many time are u guys gonna make me repeat myself) for Vergo and even Sanji for that matter using haki is basic for them so dont give me that shit. Sanji's leg was obviously broken seeing how he was limping after that fight and saying Sanji isnt as durable as Luffy is completely absurd. Who gives a fuck if Luffy has a DF, Sanji is just as strong as him and to think otherwise is an obvious attempt at downplaying Sanji. Idk y u bring up Enies Lobby when that was the only time Luffy was stronger than Zoro and Sanji (actually no he wasnt bcuz when they used their power ups they basically fodderized their opponents so they were probably as strong as Luffy then too, hell even Luffy's G2 didnt help him that much to beat Lucci). Luffy's rubber body helped him against Lucci's shigan ouren but thats irrelevant now that we have haki so I dont see where ur getting at there.

I love how u completely disregard the fact that they were laid out on the ground after they got beat up by Vergo and act like they were perfectly fine after the battle just bcuz they got up. I dont get what ur saying about the Red hawk, Luffy can't spam that and it cant even put Vergo down so thats irrelevant as well. And yes Sanji is almost as strong as Luffy ridiculous to think otherwise.


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## grinninggrizzly (Jan 3, 2013)

Tupadre you're tripping. Vergo's kick was no normal kick. He came at sanji pissed off as a muthafucka. The kick was far from normal. Vergo looked like he was going to kick a football into the clouds. Plus even in his full body haki his legs aesthetically remained the same. But it was still pretty obvious his legs were also hardened. That's what he did to sanji. Anyone in sanji's specific predicamen would have suffered the same injury if not worse.


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## Sanji (Jan 3, 2013)

Sanji's style also puts himself in a more vulnerable position as a fighter. He really has nothing special to block attacks with, like blunt force immunity or a sword. He has to use his body which can put himself into some less then stellar situations, such as the pacifista fight. When going against stronger adversaries like Vergo, it's much wiser for Sanji to dodge attacks rather than attempt to block them, take right after his leg cracks for example, he ducks right under Vergo's next kick.

All in all, Vergo's ridiculous CoA is just a shitty matchup for Sanji.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2013)

Vergo would fuck up luffy and break his bones with a direct hit but the same goes for luffys strong attacks agasint him. 

Luffy has higher attack power and more speed he beats vergo.


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## Dunno (Jan 3, 2013)

Smoker and Vergo are just two random VAs. Luffy and Zoro should be stronger than that.


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## Extravlad (Jan 3, 2013)

> Smoker and Vergo are just two random VAs



 

Are you serious ? Smoker and Vergo random ?


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## Dunno (Jan 3, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Are you serious ? Smoker and Vergo random ?



Strength-wise, not plot-wise.


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## Extravlad (Jan 3, 2013)

Vergo is probably stronger than Zoro and possibly stronger than Luffy.

IMO Vergo > Luffy = Smoker > Zoro


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## Dunno (Jan 3, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Vergo is probably stronger than Zoro and possibly stronger than Luffy.
> 
> IMO Vergo > Luffy = Smoker > Zoro



It is possible. Since neither Zoro nor Luffy has really had an opponent who has pushed them to their limits it's hard to know how strong they are. I think they might take Dolflamingo or Big mum down pretty soon, and then they'd have to be pretty strong. I also rate "negative feats"  pretty highly, and both Smoker and Vergo were beaten by Law with some difficulty. Also Luffy and Zoro have won against every enemy who was about as strong as them.


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## Extravlad (Jan 3, 2013)

> I think they might take Dolflamingo or Big mum down pretty soon,


Lol?

Doflamingo maybe but Big Mom stomps Zoro and Luffy low diff this is obvious;


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## tupadre97 (Jan 3, 2013)

grinninggrizzly said:


> Tupadre you're tripping. Vergo's kick was no normal kick. He came at sanji pissed off as a muthafucka. The kick was far from normal. Vergo looked like he was going to kick a football into the clouds. Plus even in his full body haki his legs aesthetically remained the same. But it was still pretty obvious his legs were also hardened. That's what he did to sanji. Anyone in sanji's specific predicamen would have suffered the same injury if not worse.



I aint trippin bro. For haki users thats just a regular attack for them.


CaveLemon said:


> Sanji's style also puts himself in a more vulnerable position as a fighter. He really has nothing special to block attacks with, like blunt force immunity or a sword. He has to use his body which can put himself into some less then stellar situations, such as the pacifista fight. When going against stronger adversaries like Vergo, it's much wiser for Sanji to dodge attacks rather than attempt to block them, take right after his leg cracks for example, he ducks right under Vergo's next kick.
> 
> All in all, Vergo's ridiculous CoA is just a shitty matchup for Sanji.


Nah thats bs, Vergo is just stronger than him. Its simple. Sanji's legs are his main weapons for attack so they are the strongest part of his body. If u are strong enough to break those ur pretty much just stronger than him. Its not a bad matchup Vergo is just too strong. It isnt like Sanji isnt gonna get stronger he obviously will. He'll eventually be stronger than Vergo but right now he isnt and neither is Luffy.


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Vergo would fuck up luffy and break his bones with a direct hit *but the same goes for luffys* strong attacks agasint him.
> 
> *Luffy has higher attack power and more speed he beats vergo*.


Wait what? Luffy's haki attacks couldnt even put down Hody there's no way in hell he's breaking anything on Vergo's body. Shit the only thing Luffy really has that can take down Vergo is EGG which he will never land so I cant even really see him beating base Vergo unless he is extremely lucky.

We've already gone over y Luffy isnt stronger than Vergo and as far as speed goes it really wont save him in this match even tho he is faster than Vergo. I mean it isnt like Luffy is so fast he wont get hit by Vergo or his attacks will be so fast and powerful it will take down Vergo. Thats just ridiculous. All his speed is gonna do is prolong his destruction at the hands of Vergo.


Dunno said:


> Smoker and Vergo are just two random VAs. Luffy and Zoro should be stronger than that.


Lol wtf are u talkin about?


Extravlad said:


> Vergo is probably stronger than Zoro and possibly stronger than Luffy.
> 
> IMO *Vergo > Luffy = Smoker > Zoro*


Yea it seems about right. But its probably Base Vergo>=Luffy=Smoker>=Zoro.


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## Dunno (Jan 3, 2013)

Extravlad said:


> Lol?
> 
> Doflamingo maybe but Big Mom stomps Zoro and Luffy low diff this is obvious;



It's not obvious. I think it would be the same difficulty as Magellan vs Luffy. With a couple of allies and a little bit of plot they might pull it off, kinda like Luffy did against Crocodile.


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## grinninggrizzly (Jan 3, 2013)

^^How so? He kicked sanji with everything that he had. Regardless, my point still stands. Anyone else on that island would have met the same fate, if not worse if vergo kicked them in the leg with such ferocity.

And nothing was broken, that's blowing things out of proportion. It was just a hairline fracture that hasn't hindered sanji whatsoever. If anything sanji's in better shape than both law and smoker. You have no idea how vergo's defense would fair against HM sanji, as he was and still is in fighting shape having already proven that he's not only faster than vergo, but also capable of hurting him as much as smoker did with what in your perspective should be deemed basic attacks for a diable jambe master.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Jan 3, 2013)

Luffy > Velgo=Zoro>=Smoker


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## Coruscation (Jan 3, 2013)

> *Did u not just read when I said that I forgot about when Luffy broke Lucci's legs?* Anyway *forget about that Vergo's using haki is basic for him. He's a VA for crying out aloud. That's just a regular attack for him *it isnt like that was some super special secret technique that was just a regular kick form him. *U do realize that Luffy is always using G2 post skip right?* Why do u think he has been using G2 attacks without us seeing him charge up for them? Ur acting like G2 is some amazing power up that will make him so fast Vergo can touch which is clearly not the case. And *no Law and Smoker didnt just tank his attacks like they were nothing. The few times we've seen them hit by Vergo were absolutely devastating and they were basically down for the count* after those few hits. *And what makes u think Law cant use hardening?* He clearly has the strongest haki on PH right now and as u said b4 Oda is inconsistent sometimes so maybe he just forget to draw it in like when Vergo hit Sanji since u think Vergo was using hardening then. And who cares if Luffy is more durable than Law. Law got hit only a few times and he was down for the entire duration of Smoker's fight with Vergo. How about u come some legitimate reason as for why Luffy can beat Vergo instead of pull this shit out ur ass. I'll wait.



You clearly "forget" about anything that doesn't suit you. Sanji nearly breaking his own leg on a Pacifista included. Point was that you've started talking a basic kick from Luffy when FROM THE VERY START _I_ was saying Red Hawk and Elephant Gun.

Once again you show that you can't even comprehend my posts let alone the manga. Basic referred to Luffy. Point about Vergo is that him using a Haki attack is not as basic as you claim because *Haki is his main strength*. He is an expert of COA. With Luffy a Hardened attack is mid level because he can ramp it up further with the Gears. For Vergo, any serious Hardened attack is very powerful because his Haki is so strong.

No he hasn't. He fodderized Caesar Clown in fight #3 without ever going into it and broke his face with a normal not even stretched Hardened punch. We haven't even seen Luffy in serious mode using G2 yet. Only small glimpses like dodging a stupidly huge explosion while falling free in mid air with casual ease.

When the fuck did I talk about them taking it like "nothing"? You are impossibly stupid. Can't write a single sentence without strawmen and hyperbole. I said they took multiple hits to the face and kept fighting. That is a fact. It happened. Law even took that plus heavy heart squeezing and still didn't go unconscious. Smoker kept laying the smackdown on Vergo after he clearly got hit himself. The reason he was strung out on the ground after taking Oni Take is that he had done what he set out to, take Law's heart back. Why get up and exert himself when he was finished and handing the fight to Law?

The fact that he hasn't been shown using it and that its primary purpose is to make physical blows and physical defense more powerful, and Law isn't a physical fighter. You think it's a coincidence that the only three people shown to use it so far are those who do damage strictly with blunt force?


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## tupadre97 (Jan 3, 2013)

@Corus Bro ur just talking straight nonsense at this point. Vergo's kick he used against Sanjis is about as basic as a jet whip from Luffy stop acting like it was some special technique when it wasnt. And like I said b4 Luffy is always in G2 and even if he wasnt (even tho he obviously has been, how else do u explain how he has been using all these G2 attacks when we havent seen him charge up in his old G2 stance) and is still yet to use it how much faster could he possibly be than Sanji? Just think logically for one second b4 talking down to me its getting really irritating. I'm not the idiot here ur just talking about random shit here so let me just tell u my point here so we can get this over with *Vergo is fast enough, powerful enough, and durable enough to defeat Luffy. Thats final, no more debating this, its becoming rather pointless now. If u honestly think Luffy can beat Vergo then please explain how he would do it in vivid detail and I will counter ur argument by explaining how Vergo could win. If u dont want to do that and what to argue about irrelevant shit like u have been doing this entire time then please kindly keep to urself and SHUT THE FUCK UP.*


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## Kid (Jan 3, 2013)

Why is Sanji suddenly involved in this? 

Also I think Vergo ~ Smoker ~ Luffy > Zoro.

So i'm going with Vergo and Smoker.


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## ogochukwu (Jan 3, 2013)

team 2 takes this, Zoro with haki takes out smoker first and joins luffy to take out vergo for the first Scenario, for the second Scenario team 1 takes it


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## Pink Matter (Jan 3, 2013)

Sigh Tupadre, your entire argument revolves around your claim that Luffy and Sanji are practically equals so therefore Luffy loses to Vergo. Complete bullshit. I could say that since Luffy and Law are practically equal, then Luffy fodderizes Vergo, which is also complete bullshit. Matchup is extremely important. 

You're retarded if you think Sanji has durability that's on par with Luffy's. I'll give Sanji the same ENDURANCE as Luffy though. Even top-tiers like Whitebeard can be hurt by bullets and I'd place WB's durability way above Sanji's. He's a non-DF using Human so he's going to get hurt if he tries tanking powerful attacks with just his leg. Also his leg wasn't fucking broken, stop spouting nonsense. It was slightly fractured. Otherwise, Sanji would be lying on the ground clutching his leg which obviously never happened. 

It's pathetic that your only method of debating is saying that you KNOW Vergo is going to win and claiming he's faster, stronger, and more durable and thinking that's all you need. That's not how it works.


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## Kishido (Jan 3, 2013)

Zoro uses Shi ShiShi Son SonSon at the start. Smoker or Vergo gone... Than both Luffy and Zoro plays with the left one until the second Shi ShiShi Son SonSon


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## DoflaMihawk (Jan 3, 2013)

Vergo is stronger than Luffy. Smoker is stronger than Zoro. 

Albeit the difference isn't big but it's there.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 3, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> Sigh Tupadre, your entire argument revolves around your claim that *Luffy and Sanji are practically equals so therefore Luffy loses to Vergo. Complete bullshit.* I could say that since Luffy and Law are practically equal, then Luffy fodderizes Vergo, which is also complete bullshit. Matchup is extremely important.
> 
> You're retarded if you think Sanji has durability that's on par with Luffy's. I'll give Sanji the same ENDURANCE as Luffy though. Even top-tiers like Whitebeard can be hurt by bullets and I'd place WB's durability way above Sanji's. He's a non-DF using Human so he's going to get hurt if he tries tanking powerful attacks with just his leg. Also his leg wasn't fucking broken, stop spouting nonsense. It was slightly fractured. Otherwise, Sanji would be lying on the ground clutching his leg which obviously never happened.
> 
> It's pathetic that your only method of debating is saying that you KNOW Vergo is going to win and claiming he's faster, stronger, and more durable and thinking that's all you need. That's not how it works.



Are u kidding me? U honestly think that Sanji isnt as strong as Luffy? Well excuse me for thinking Sanji was on par with the rest of the M3. He must be mid trio level or a random fodder or some shit. Come on gtfo with that bs. Thats just proof that ur downplaying Sanji. There's not even anymore reason to continue this debate. U just proved ur bias right there. I can't even take u seriously anymore.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 3, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Are u kidding me? U honestly think that Sanji isnt as strong as Luffy? Well excuse me for thinking Sanji was on par with the rest of the M3. He must be mid trio level or a random fodder or some shit. Come on gtfo with that bs. Thats just proof that ur downplaying Sanji. There's not even anymore reason to continue this debate. U just proved ur bias right there. I can't even take u seriously anymore.



No you're completely ridiculous for fucking talking about Sanji in all your posts in a fight that doesn't even include Sanji. Stop being so damn extreme, just because I consider Luffy above Sanji doesn't mean I think he's fodder. Even if I was downplaying Sanji, which I wasn't, why the fuck does it matter? You do know he's not part of the fight right? I'm pretty sure it's you with the Sanji bias if you manage to bring him up every time. I stopped taking you seriously after your second post.


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## Dellinger (Jan 3, 2013)

If Sanji's attacks were able to damage Vergo then Luffy will cause much more damage with his punches than Sanji.

Now you can choose,you want an EGG,an EG,A Grizzly Magnum,a Red Hawk or a Jet Gatling?


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## tupadre97 (Jan 3, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> No you're completely ridiculous for fucking talking about Sanji in all your posts in a fight that doesn't even include Sanji. Stop being so damn extreme, just because I consider Luffy above Sanji doesn't mean I think he's fodder. Even if I was downplaying Sanji, which I wasn't, why the fuck does it matter? You do know he's not part of the fight right? I'm pretty sure it's you with the Sanji bias if you manage to bring him up every time. I stopped taking you seriously after your second post.



Are u even listening to anything I'm saying? I'm saying if Vergo can break Sanji's leg in one kick, a clear indicator of how much stronger than him, then why cant he do the same to Luffy who is just as strong as Sanji? Thats the reason I'm bringing up Sanji, bcuz I'm making an actual point. I'm coming with actual points and all ur doing is ignoring them and my questions and acting like I'm being unreasonable just bcuz I'm voicing my opinion. Ur not making any sense here. Stop talking shit and come with some solid points and answer the questions I am giving instead of arguing about the reasons I'm asking them.


White Hawk said:


> If Sanji's attacks were able to damage Vergo then Luffy will cause much more damage with his punches than Sanji.
> 
> Now you can choose,you want an EGG,an EG,A Grizzly Magnum,a Red Hawk or a Jet Gatling?


How much damage do u think Sanji's attacks did? Vergo looked perfectly fine after fighting with Sanji. He even still had the strength to woop Law's ass and beat Smoker. Sanji's attacks didnt really do a whole lot.

And how strong do u think Luffy is? His haki attacks couldnt even put down a hakiless fodder (as everybody likes to call him) like Hody and u think he can put down Vergo who was still in great shape after fighting Sanji and Smoker and beating them both? Thats ridiculous. Not to mention his strongest attacks (like Red hawk and G3) will never hit Vergo and even if they did they wouldnt take him down, especially if they couldnt take down a fodder like Hody (i'm talking about redhawk if he hit Vergo with it).


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## Dellinger (Jan 4, 2013)

Red Hawk did put Hody down 
Hody took tons of pills just to get up from that.

Sanji hit him hard enough to make him actually bleed and send him flying.Luffy hits much harder than that.

Luffy has the firepower to put both Smoker and Vergo down,IMO.


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## B Rabbit (Jan 4, 2013)

People need to realize. 

Both Red Hawk and Grizzly Magnium almost killed both their opponents.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 4, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> Red Hawk did put Hody down
> Hody took tons of pills just to get up from that.
> 
> Sanji hit him hard enough to make him actually bleed and send him flying.Luffy hits much harder than that.
> ...



It wouldnt put Vergo down. And are u saying he can take down Vergo and Smoker at the same time? No I must be trippin or something.


B Rabbit said:


> People need to realize.
> 
> Both Red Hawk and Grizzly Magnium almost killed both their opponents.


And ppl need to realize that the ppl he used those moves on were fodder and even if they were powerful enough to beat Vergo with (imo they cant) they would never connect bcuz Vergo is too fast for redhawk or any G3 attacks. Luffy needs more feats of being able to use these attacks fast and being able to spam them b4 we can say they are fast enough to hit Vergo.


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## Green Monkey (Jan 4, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> It wouldnt put Vergo down. And are u saying he can take down Vergo and Smoker at the same time? No I must be trippin or something.
> 
> And ppl need to realize that the ppl he used those moves on were fodder and even if they were powerful enough to beat Vergo with (imo they cant) they would never connect *bcuz Vergo is too fast for redhawk* or any G3 attacks. Luffy needs more feats of being able to use these attacks fast and being able to spam them b4 we can say they are fast enough to hit Vergo.



You are an idiot....please...no one else argue with this guy.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 4, 2013)

Green Monkey said:


> You are an idiot....please...no one else argue with this guy.



So u really think Vergo is just gonna stand there and let Luffy cock back his arm, apply haki, apply g2, and charge that shit up without attacking once while he does it? Bitch please. As far as I'm concerned Luffy has shown no feats of him being able to spam redhawk attacks or use them as fast as his g2 attacks. Gtfo with that shit.


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## grinninggrizzly (Jan 4, 2013)

Tupadre you must be one of those professional trolls or something. Your unabashedly spouting nonsense by this point.


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## TrainerRed (Jan 4, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> If Sanji's attacks were able to damage Vergo then Luffy will cause much more damage with his punches than Sanji.
> 
> Now you can choose,you want an *EGG*,an *EG*,A *Grizzly Magnum*,a Red Hawk or a Jet Gatling?



Vergo isn't stupid or slow enough to get hit by an Elephant Gatling, Elephant Gun, and damn sure not a Grizzly Magnum.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 4, 2013)

grinninggrizzly said:


> Tupadre you must be one of those professional trolls or something. Your unabashedly spouting nonsense by this point.



How am I a troll? I'm expressing my opinions on this debate and all u guys are doing is talking shit to me.


RedDogAkainu said:


> Vergo isn't stupid or slow enough to get hit by an Elephant Gatling, Elephant Gun, and damn sure not a Grizzly Magnum.


Exactly ppl are acting like Vergo has no speed feats even tho he blitzed Law faster than Law could react to his own teleportation. None of Luffy's strongest attacks would hit him. Red hawk might have chance to hit him (even so it would be a _very_ small chance at that) it still wouldnt take down Vergo. Vergo showed no signs of fatigue or significant damage after fighting and beating both Sanji and Smoker accept for a bloody face and a couple of bruises. Besides that he was totally fine. He was even ready to take on Law after all that and still had the power to go into full body haki mode that is probably incredibly more durable and powerful than his base form that was stronger than both Sanji and Smoker.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 4, 2013)

Contrary to your belief Tupadre, Vergo is surprisingly slow and stupid when it comes to reaction time. Otherwise, Sanji wouldve never sent him flying into the wall and Smoker wouldve never connected his Haki attacks to the face. They were all direct, in the face attacks too. So your point about Vergo not standing there to take Luffy's more powerful attacks are moot. 

Also Sanji never got his leg broken, for the 1000th time.


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## tupadre97 (Jan 4, 2013)

Pink Matter said:


> Contrary to your belief Tupadre, *Vergo is surprisingly slow and stupid when it comes to reaction time.* Otherwise, Sanji wouldve never sent him flying into the wall and Smoker wouldve never connected his Haki attacks to the face. They were all direct, in the face attacks too. So your point about Vergo not standing there to take Luffy's more powerful attacks are moot.
> 
> Also Sanji never got his leg broken, for the 1000th time.



Based on what? Bcuz Sanji hit him twice? U do realize he tanked those attacks right? And Sanji's leg wasnt broke even tho Vergo fractured his bone? Well then why was he limping after the fight? Can u please explain bcuz I dont understand what ur trying to say.


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## Pink Matter (Jan 4, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> Based on what? Bcuz Sanji hit him twice? U do realize he tanked those attacks right? And Sanji's leg wasnt broke even tho Vergo fractured his bone? Well then why was he limping after the fight? Can u please explain bcuz I dont understand what ur trying to say.



Vergo could've only tanked the first kick, which he was still hurt by. He has no reason to stand there and take another attack when his base durability isn't enough to keep him from getting hurt. It's obvious that his reaction speed sucks. Smoker also managed to punch and elbow him in the face during their confrontation. Vergo's lacking in the reaction department. 

I don't think you understand the difference between a fractured bone and a broken bond. Sanji himself said his leg was going to be broken IF the fight continued that way.


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## grinninggrizzly (Jan 4, 2013)

tupadre97 said:


> How am I a troll? I'm expressing my opinions on this debate and all u guys are doing is talking shit to me.
> 
> Exactly ppl are acting like Vergo has no speed feats even tho he blitzed Law faster than Law could react to his own teleportation. None of Luffy's strongest attacks would hit him. Red hawk might have chance to hit him (even so it would be a _very_ small chance at that) it still wouldnt take down Vergo. Vergo showed no signs of fatigue or significant damage after fighting and beating both Sanji and Smoker accept for a bloody face and a couple of bruises. Besides that he was totally fine. He was even ready to take on Law after all that and still had the power to go into full body haki mode that is probably incredibly more durable and powerful than his base form that was stronger than both Sanji and Smoker.



Sanji limped ONCE. Otherwise he's been fine and dandy. In fact, he kept trading blows with vergo using the same leg no problem. Like everyone has been trying (in vain) to get it through to you, the pacifista/kuma did a far better number on sanji.

Vergo's speed and reactions? Last i checked it was nothing special. Sanji made him eat the bricks TWICE and had zero problem dodging his follow up while nursing a, as you insist on calling it, broken leg. He didn't land any other hit on sanji afterwards. 

The only clean hits he's managed to get so far were when sanji blocked his kick, when he was conveniently squeezing law's heart and against smoker who conveniently made it easier for him to get in freebies. All the above got the better of him in their respective bouts and smacked him no problem, and luffy can't? Lol. The only impressive stat vergo has is his durability. 

Also vergo IS stupid enough to just stand there and take  a GM etc. Heck he'd gladly walk straight into it. What manga have you been reading?


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## Dellinger (Jan 4, 2013)

RedDogAkainu said:


> Vergo isn't stupid or slow enough to get hit by an Elephant Gatling, Elephant Gun, and damn sure not a Grizzly Magnum.



What makes you think that EGG and EG are slow?


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