# Dio Brando vs Aizen



## XImpossibruX (Oct 8, 2015)

Battle of the quick draws. 

Which hax takes this, Za Warudo or Kyōka Suigetsu? 

Round 1. Aizen hasn't lost his Zanpakuto. Fake Karakura Town arc.

Round 2. Current Aizen. 

(Since this battle was done back in 2007 with Dio's win apparently on the wiki, I'd like to see if anything changed)


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

Which Aizen?


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## Brightsteel (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Which Aizen?



Does that even matter?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

I heard Aizen is continent level now via vapourizing black ooze. Of course I also never bothered reading Bleach, so take that with a grain of salt 

If it's true he probably wrecks Dio though


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Which Aizen?



To one who fucked with everyone and fought Dangai Ichigo. So Fake Karakura Town arc.

Or current, whichever one is more fair. 

Actually I'll just make two rounds


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## Brightsteel (Oct 8, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> I heard Aizen is continent level now via vapourizing black ooze. Of course I also never bothered reading Bleach, so take that with a grain of salt
> 
> If it's true he probably wrecks Dio though



Are you serious?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> Are you serious?



Just asked for the proof, this shit is on VS Babies Wiki so I would take it with a grain of salt but I will let people who actually care figure it out


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## Sablés (Oct 8, 2015)

Dis gonna be one glorious MUDA


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> Just asked for the proof, this shit is on VS Babies Wiki so I would take it with a grain of salt but I will let people who actually care figure it out


>vs battles
Yeah I think we are gonna need a hell lot more proof if that is the case.

either way does Aizens durbility stay the same? because if so then Dio can still rekt him with a Za Warudo Muda barrage.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 8, 2015)

wait how would aizen be continent level ?
i would call bs 
first of he is using a size we don't use here for seireitei (ours is like 3 times smaller)
second why would he use water vaporization to calc the dispersio ivach beam ?
am i missing something ?
this is just dumb


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 8, 2015)

All this continental stuff and no talk about first round Kyōka Suigetsu? Would that affect Dio or is he pulling a Time-Stop out first, cause Dio actually has to see him activate it.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 8, 2015)

DIO doesn't need to yell out ZA WARUDO to activate it. He just does it to be flashy. Aizen would probably go into a monologue about how he's superior to DIO and wind up getting pasted in return.


Nothing of value is lost


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

Dio scales to Silver Chariot, so we know he at least has speed.

And is from a good series


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## MAPSK (Oct 8, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Battle of the quick draws.
> 
> Which hax takes this, Za Warudo or Kyōka Suigetsu?
> 
> ...







XImpossibruX said:


> (Since this battle was done back in 2007 with Dio's win apparently on the wiki, I'd like to see if anything changed)





Dio takes this shit handily


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 8, 2015)

Dio steamrolls~


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

Ends with.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Would that affect Dio or is he pulling a Time-Stop out first


I don't know if it would effect him as I heard something about stands acting as another sense for a stand user but I would rather wait if someone could confirm that.
I can answer that Dio will certainly go right into a time stop at the beginning of the fight thanks to bloodlust being on as default which will certainly screw Aizen over thanks to the World being faster then light.




XImpossibruX said:


> cause Dio actually has to see him activate it.


Last I heard Aizen has to release his Zanpakuto to people for them to be under his illusions and seeing as how Dio has no reason to be a dumbass and wait due to bloodlust on he will just time stop and pound his candy ass into the ground.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

Would Aizen's KS even work when Dio uses his Time Stop?

Kinda hard to manipulate someone's senses if you can't think/move/do anything in a Time Stop.

So whatever illusion Aizen makes, gets broken/interfered with the moment Dio stops time.

KS makes people see what Aizen wants them to see, but Unohana could see problems with it, making it not as perfect as Aizen claimed.

So, if Aizen wanted Dio to see his backside when Dio is standing right infront of him, but is really Aizen's frontside and Dio stops time, walks to a different perspective than where he was, wouldn't that break KS's illusion?

Kind of like a calculator problem, input A, then gets B, then makes C, then results in D, but Dio stops time where B/C is and replacing it with a Z or W making the following not work like its was supposed too. Basically KS gets an error message.


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## Darth Nihilus (Oct 8, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]5TSYceq6_-U[/YOUTUBE]


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

Dio likely can't kill Aizen before Aizen kills him.


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## Visa (Oct 8, 2015)

Aren't Jojo characters, like, FTL? 
If so, Aizens efforts are...


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

Dio's Time-Stop though.

Does Aizen even realize he's in a fight before he gets hit?

Besides isn't this a better Hax fight, not character fight.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 8, 2015)

TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> Dio's Time-Stop though.
> 
> Does Aizen even realize he's in a fight before he gets hit?
> 
> Besides isn't this a better Hax fight, not character fight.



Well the hax is a determining factor. 

Plus I thought we established that the User's reactions are much slower than the FTL stands?


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## MAPSK (Oct 8, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Well the hax is a determining factor.
> 
> Plus I thought we established that the User's reactions are much slower than the FTL stands?



hahahahahahahahaha... no


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

Users reactions are slower than the stands

unless you're dio who can fight stands

however the main problem is Dio has absolutely no way I can think of to put aizen down


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> Plus I thought we established that the User's reactions are much slower than the FTL stands?


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## Mickey Mouse (Oct 8, 2015)

....I gotta read jjbc one day....


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

[youtube]oGjocwX209c[/youtube]

The OVAs had such underappreciated tracks


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 8, 2015)

I was reading over the Force Users vs Jojo threads and I thought it was established that they don't have the same reactions. 

Or did we change that?


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## Dr. White (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Users reactions are slower than the stands
> 
> unless you're dio who can fight stands
> 
> however the main problem is Dio has absolutely no way I can think of to put aizen down



IIRC isn't DIO country level with timestop build up damage?


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> I was reading over the Force Users vs Jojo threads and I thought it was established that they don't have the same reactions.
> 
> Or did we change that?



It's contested as fuck and bringing it up causes shit storms.

I really should just stay out of Jojo threads, thinking about it


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Users reactions are slower than the stands
> 
> unless you're dio who can fight stands
> 
> however the main problem is Dio has absolutely no way I can think of to put aizen down





No, but really can't Dio just drink Aizen's Blood while in the Time-Stop.

How far are we letting the Marble's NLF get to, before "I'll smash you flat" becomes the end result?


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## Darth Nihilus (Oct 8, 2015)

[youtube]bPXW4hvHj-Q[/youtube]


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## Brightsteel (Oct 8, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> It's contested as fuck and bringing it up causes shit storms.
> 
> I really should just stay out of Jojo threads, thinking about it



It doesn't matter anyways.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

Brightsteel said:


> It doesn't matter anyways.



I think The World's stats are just below Star's. And I mean JUST 2:40.
[YOUTUBE]AAsKdQs1GGI[/YOUTUBE]

I think it was Dio's Stand experience being better than Jotaro's, more than the Stand speed being faster.


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> I heard Aizen is continent level now via vapourizing black ooze


Haha no

That relies on some really bullshit scaling


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

You know, I would like to comment on the possibility of DIO getting an upgrade composite wise, a *huge* one at that

Basically,  possibly making it tertiary canon or another universe or something? That said, there is a "new" character confirmed so far called Mysterious Man





> The mysterious man is an original character created exclusively for JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Eyes of Heaven. Little has been revealed about his appearance, other than he wears a flowing white coat with golden kneepads in a "D" motif and has long hair. It is unknown if he is an ally to the Joestars or an antagonist as of yet; however, he does have a strong connection with "heaven" and is most likely the one responsible for the collision of timelines in the game's story mode.
> 
> The man bears similarities with DIO, having similar outfits, striking a pose DIO makes in Part III: Stardust Crusaders and having connections with "heaven" as a philosophy and eventual goal.



Current working theory is that it's DIO from a bad future after killing Jotaro, and he is final boss material that may or may not be on par with the likes of GER and Made in Heaven. Just found this interesting, though we have to wait a couple months to see


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## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Haha no
> 
> That relies on some really bullshit scaling



Regi saves the day again


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## Visa (Oct 8, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> [youtube]oGjocwX209c[/youtube]
> 
> The OVAs had such underappreciated tracks



Damn, that is good. 
But with the new JJBA, once you hear this OST, you know shit's going down.  
[YOUTUBE]NFjE5A4UAJI[/YOUTUBE]


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## Mr. Black Leg (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Dio likely can't kill Aizen before Aizen kills him.



FTL with time stop vs MHS much ?


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

SeaOfHope said:


> Damn, that is good.
> But with the new JJBA, once you hear this OST, you know shit's going down.
> [YOUTUBE]NFjE5A4UAJI[/YOUTUBE]



I like the 8-bit versions.
[YOUTUBE]WggcorA23FM[/YOUTUBE]

The battle soundtrack can be this.
[YOUTUBE]7qJrFqzrgU4[/YOUTUBE]

Too bad the battle ends before it can reach the _zero_ sec mark.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> IIRC isn't DIO country level with timestop build up damage?



After reading Part 3 I'm not especially convinced that such is the case, though technically correct it's kind of like  at the whole thing

besides which, Aizen face tanked/regened from Mugetsu which I seem to recall being of vaguely similar (if not far higher depending on scaling) energy output anyway, correct me if I'm wrong

This implies to me that dio timestops, fucks Aizen's shit up and then ends up in either an eternal stalemate by chaining timestops or dies once aizen gets like a single swing/fragor/cero/blink off



TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> No, but really can't Dio just drink Aizen's Blood while in the Time-Stop.
> 
> How far are we letting the Marble's NLF get to, before "I'll smash you flat" becomes the end result?



I'm pretty convinced right now that Aizen can regenerate from not having any blood and I don't think Dio can otherwise do enough damage to overwhelm his regen.


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

Mugetsu is only like, two teratons right now

Though you're right in that the result could be far higher depending on interpretation


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## Imagine (Oct 8, 2015)

>_Only_ like 2 teratons


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

I mean if we're going with "Soul Society is a planet"

Then Mugetsu is potentially petatons


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## Imagine (Oct 8, 2015)

Yottatons when


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

Actually hang on, can Dio even punch Aizen here 

Cause the asshole kind of passively fucks up people who get really close to him

Like when that one fodder tried to touch him and instantly lost his hands, or hell, when Aizen took chunks out of Gin's arm


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## Imagine (Oct 8, 2015)

Idk.

Kira Yoshikage solos


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

you don't even need the planet assumption necessarily

If you take RG dude's statement and assume that SOMEWHERE in SS there's a stretch of like whatever he said (2000km iirc) then you get results on that level as well.

Or so the argument goes iirc

ask stables 



Regicide said:


> Actually hang on, can Dio even punch Aizen here
> 
> Cause the asshole kind of passively fucks up people who get really close to him
> 
> Like when that one fodder tried to touch him and instantly lost his hands, or hell, when Aizen took chunks out of Gin's arm



I'd argue that this wouldn't work within the timestop, so if Dio got in and out within the timestop he'd be fine 

if he left timestop within range he might be screwed


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> I'd argue that this wouldn't work within the timestop, so if Dio got in and out within the timestop he'd be fine
> 
> if he left timestop within range he might be screwed


I dunno

He doesn't seem to need to actively maintain it

Sort of just seems like an energy field or some nonsense like that


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> I dunno
> 
> He doesn't seem to need to actively maintain it
> 
> Sort of just seems like an energy field or some nonsense like that



yeah but it can't interact with Dio while time is stopped 

or can it?


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

When Aizen can insta vap more than powerless humans or fodders with his powers, then we can say stuff like that.

Until then, people who are around the same tier as Gin can get to him.

Regen has limits too.

You can say that it goes a long way, but it is not endless.

Dio on the other hand...


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> yeah but it can't interact with Dio while time is stopped
> 
> or can it?


Can it? 


TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> Until then, people who are around the same tier as Gin can get to him.


Say what 

 the second Aizen stop deliberately suppressing his power, and he's at least town level


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## tkpirate (Oct 8, 2015)

Where Dio's durability at?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

actually I guess since Gravity appears to interact with Dio maybe he is still affected by ambient forces during timestop 

I don't think this situation ever came up in part 3 or 4

can anyone think of an example of Dio/Jotaro walking into/being unharmed by fire or the sunlight or some other form of frozen "energy" like that?


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Can it?
> Say what
> 
> the second Aizen stop deliberately suppressing his power, and he's at least town level



Aizen slapped his arm, it wasn't his aura that did it.

His Bankai wouldn't of gotten through his aura if thats the case.

Aizen smashed/slapped Gin's arm when he reached for the marble, Aizen when he became even more powerful, also ripped Gin's arm off. He didn't vap it while he was touching it.


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

Except the wound looks nothing like it was inflicted by a slap/smash


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> actually I guess since Gravity appears to interact with Dio maybe he is still affected by ambient forces during timestop
> 
> I don't think this situation ever came up in part 3 or 4
> 
> can anyone think of an example of Dio/Jotaro walking into/being unharmed by fire or the sunlight or some other form of frozen "energy" like that?



He couldn't hit Old man Joseph because of the Ripple flowing through his body.

Time-Stop is just that, a Time-Stop.

If Dio walks into a red sphere he is under the red sphere's influence, but most likely won't be affected by it until the Time-Stop ends.

He throws Knives that don't become affected by gravity, until the Time-Stop ends.

He might need enough power to pass through that red sphere while in the Time-Stop though.

The World grabbed a bullet and stopped it's momentum because it had the energy to do so.

If that object has more energy behind it than The World can grab/null though...

Like I said though, Aizen needs to passive vap more than just fodder still for that to be a problem. People on Gin's level can pass that aura and hit Aizen.



Regicide said:


> Except the wound looks nothing like it was inflicted by a slap/smash



Use your left hand fist and hit your right arm perpendicular and in the same place where Gin's wound is. Your left fist has much more energy behind it than your right arm can handle, turning it to mush when it hits it.


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

No they can't 

Gin would be forced to metaphorically swallow his own teeth if he tried to touch a serious Aizen


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 8, 2015)

the gin level aura is skin deep


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 8, 2015)

Regicide said:


> No they can't
> 
> Gin would be forced to metaphorically swallow his own teeth if he tried to touch a serious Aizen



Then how did his Bankai pass though Aizen's aura.

His Bankai turning into dust makes that argument even worse, since Aizen's aura can't even keep dust out of it.


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## Regicide (Oct 8, 2015)

Aizen was still deliberately weakening himself at the time

Killing Strawberry-kun's friends and then hanging their corpses somewhere around town to taunt the fucker isn't the greatest of ideas if he can't even get within speaking distance without them blowing up


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 8, 2015)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> You know, I would like to comment on the possibility of DIO getting an upgrade composite wise, a *huge* one at that
> 
> Basically,  possibly making it tertiary canon or another universe or something? That said, there is a "new" character confirmed so far called Mysterious Man
> 
> ...



Universal level Dio confirmed




nightbringer said:


> After reading Part 3 I'm not especially convinced that such is the case, though technically correct it's kind of like  at the whole thing


By "it's" you mean just you being kinda  at the whole thing? Because last I heard no one besides you at this moment have decided against Dio having Country level DC from time stop barrages.
In Part 4 we clearly see Star Platinum do more damage with accumulated time stop barrages then he regularly does without it. And Star Plantinum and The World are the same kind of Stand with their states being close.
Would it serve the debate better if you discuss this in the Meta so you could clear this little issue you have or do we just go with what is commonly held correct?



nightbringer said:


> besides which, Aizen face tanked/regened from Mugetsu which I seem to recall being of vaguely similar (if not far higher depending on scaling) energy output anyway, correct me if I'm wrong


You mean without time stop or even with? I don't keep up with Bleach for obvious reason but I have never even heard of Mugetsu exerting country level DC, any calcs on that saying it is? And I do mean reliable ones not that Continental bullshit from vs battles because that shit is laughable.





nightbringer said:


> I'm pretty convinced right now that Aizen can regenerate from not having any blood and I don't think Dio can otherwise do enough damage to overwhelm his regen.


Unless Aizen has recovered from country level attacks I see no reason why Dio Could not put him down.

And last I heard this "Aura" sphere thing whatever sounds a lot like that  "reiatsu crush" nonsense from years back I used to hear about. Considering it's The World and not Dio himself that will be attacking I don't see why The World would just die that easily from being near Aizen with Time stop being on.


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

NostalgiaFan said:


> You mean without time stop or even with? I don't keep up with Bleach for obvious reason but I have never even heard of Mugetsu exerting country level DC, any calcs on that saying it is? And I do mean reliable ones not that Continental bullshit from vs battles because that shit is laughable.


 

I know the search function for both threads and blogs sucks and all but people just have to type "mugetsu" into it and you'll come up with tons of posts talking about where it ranks on the scale


NostalgiaFan said:


> Unless Aizen has recovered from country level attacks I see no reason why Dio Could not put him down.


What is the end of the Deicide arc



NostalgiaFan said:


> And last I heard this "Aura" sphere thing whatever sounds a lot like that  "reiatsu crush" nonsense from years back I used to hear about.


Uhh, no

One's a result of the radiant energy that the asshole's presence passively gives off, and we've seen its effects pretty clearly

Hell, even other characters do this shit to some extent

Starrk could kill fuckers around him without actively exerting himself, the captains and Espada were wrecking hollows in the next city over during the confrontation at Fake Karakura Town

The other's someone deliberately letting their energy leak out to fuck with people in the area who are much weaker than them

Even then it's not really nonsense so much as it's been wanked to high heaven in the past


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## Imagine (Oct 9, 2015)

It's basically an offensive ki barrier?


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Yeah I guess 

Except instead of having to maintain it through conscious effort, it's just sort of there and has to be actively toned down


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 9, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Aizen was still deliberately weakening himself at the time
> 
> Killing Strawberry-kun's friends and then hanging their corpses somewhere around town to taunt the fucker isn't the greatest of ideas if he can't even get within speaking distance without them blowing up



His friends never got close to Aizen's body. The personal aura extends as far as when "Spirits are always with you!" tried to use his cane on him.

Long explanation of what Aizen did.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Aizen never weakened himself, he kept Gin around so that the fear of what Gin would do would make him evolve. He made his power capable of being felt to others, that does not mean lowering his power. If Aizen lowers his power in order to gain more power, then wouldn't he be back to the same place he was before lowering it then? He "lowered" his power in the sense that others would be able to perceive it, best comparison to it would be how DBS's God Ki works. "Only Gods can sense other Gods" kind of way. However people who are stronger than Dende can still kill Dende even if they aren't able to sense Dende's power.




Aizen, when he becomes even stronger than beforehand and no longer needs Gin for evolution, grabbed Gins arm and then ripped it off, with his own barehand. If Gin can't survive Aizen's aura, then Aizen wouldn't have been able to touch Gin's arm, he would have vaped Gin's arm making it impossible for Aizen to even grab it.

I really don't think The World will have a problem getting past it.


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Where the hell is Tables when you need him anyway

Still slogging his way through his ascension hell in F/GO, I guess


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## Sablés (Oct 9, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> actually I guess since Gravity appears to interact with Dio maybe he is still affected by ambient forces during timestop
> 
> I don't think this situation ever came up in part 3 or 4
> 
> can anyone think of an example of Dio/Jotaro walking into/being unharmed by fire or the sunlight or some other form of frozen "energy" like that?



Far being from it me to argue against our lord and savior, DIO-sama

but he seemed pretty damn cautious of Joseph wrapping Hamon across Purple Hermit and didn't dare touch him even with ZA WARUDO


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Oh there you are

Have you gotten your second Attila ascension yet


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Or wait, was it third


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## Sablés (Oct 9, 2015)

K I L L Y O U R S E L F 
I
L
L
Y
O
U
R
S
E
L
F


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

You first


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## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Anyways I guess that answers Dartg's question?


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## Imagine (Oct 9, 2015)

So Kira solos? 

Yeah, Kira solos.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 9, 2015)

*Hell 2 U!*


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## Haro (Oct 9, 2015)

Dio force feeds aizen to eat a baby.

But Aizen had already planned on eating the baby so he hid a bomb under the baby's left foot before dio could notice.

But Dio had already infected the baby with his vampire blood, making aizen a vampire and sending him into the sun light.

BUT Aizen already prepared for this situation had brought his umbrella just in-case he was turned into a vampire

BUT Dio Knew this was gonna happen had stopped time and threw 8 knives above Aizen the moment he popped open his umbrella so that tiny holes of sun light peer on out.

Aizen via the pain of the sun and being a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) over his umbrella runs into the sunlight like a downy kid runs for his ball in the streets.

Dio-1 

Faggotzin-0


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 9, 2015)

"You lack hatred."


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Far being from it me to argue against our lord and savior, DIO-sama
> 
> but he seemed pretty damn cautious of Joseph wrapping Hamon across Purple Hermit and didn't dare touch him even with ZA WARUDO





thanks



NostalgiaFan said:


> By "it's" you mean just you being kinda  at the whole thing? Because last I heard no one besides you at this moment have decided against Dio having Country level DC from time stop barrages.
> In Part 4 we clearly see Star Platinum do more damage with accumulated time stop barrages then he regularly does without it. And Star Plantinum and The World are the same kind of Stand with their states being close.
> Would it serve the debate better if you discuss this in the Meta so you could clear this little issue you have or do we just go with what is commonly held correct?



I don't recall an example of explicit damage accumulation noted in part 4, do you have a cite? I know in part 5, what's his face that Sex Pistols fights can freeze things in place and accumulate energy that way but that's a fundamentally different stand and only really serves as proof of concept.

The more questionable part of the calculation to me, is the idea that Jotaro/dio/SP/The World is making millions/billions/trillions/quadrillions of punches, this is certainly not an assumption supported by the text. You could read into the text the idea that a ORAORAORAORA = millions of punches but this is indicated exactly nowhere.

Since nothing like the predicted outcome of energy stacking ever actually takes place I have my doubts about the whole thing.

Also don't pretend I'm the first person to notice this, many people have and the idea has been kind of broadly phased out whenever it comes up in my experience, with people preferring to stick Dio/Jotaro up against more closely aligned characters.


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## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2015)

Regicide said:


>


Like I said I don't keep up with Bleach because it's shiiiiiiiiiit 

So basically Yama's suicide attack and mugetsu are the same in DC output? Did the manga outright say that or is it because End of Decide arc Ichigo is power scaled to Yama?
Not like there is anything I can do to disprove it.


Regicide said:


> I know the search function for both threads and blogs sucks and all but people just have to type "mugetsu" into it and you'll come up with tons of posts talking about where it ranks on the scale


Being new to this site I never even bothered with the search function because I never saw it as useful when looking for what I want when I usually stick to just a few places.

And since you said yourself it sucks I really have less reason to use it most of the time.


Regicide said:


> What is the end of the Deicide arc


Again I don't keep up with shit I don't like. Last time I looked into anything involving that feat it was when people were debunking it being Country level and now we got people accepting it as true.

Things really do take a huge turn after a while don't they?



Regicide said:


> Uhh, no
> 
> One's a result of the radiant energy that the asshole's presence passively gives off, and we've seen its effects pretty clearly
> 
> ...


So I take it the one we are talking about is the former? Basically even in time stop this is going to work as it does without is what your saying? I still can't see The World dying like fodder when just coming close to someone in time stop, and just who were these fuckers that Starrk killed without activating it himself? Were they fodders or people of importance?



nightbringer said:


> I don't recall an example of explicit damage accumulation noted in part 4, do you have a cite?


JJBA Part 4 chapter 354-364. The first time Jotaro faces off against Kira and has a fight with Sheer heart Attack where his regular Ora barrage attacks seem to do nothing where as when he uses Time Stop and keeps bashing it he menages to break it's outer shell.




nightbringer said:


> The more questionable part of the calculation to me, is the idea that Jotaro/dio/SP/The World is making millions/billions/trillions/quadrillions of punches, this is certainly not an assumption supported by the text. You could read into the text the idea that a ORAORAORAORA = millions of punches but this is indicated exactly nowhere.


I thought the fact that they both move faster then the speed of light is what gave that point legitimacy 

last I heard characters that can attack hundreds of times per second are considered something like supersonic or slightly hypersonic so I thought being FTL would make sense for SP and The World to be able to punch that much in the 5 to 9 seconds they have since FTL shits on speeds like Supersonic, at least that is what I thought the OBD agreed on.



nightbringer said:


> Also don't pretend I'm the first person to notice this


I never said you were, just saying you are the only one right now in this thread saying it.



nightbringer said:


> the idea has been kind of broadly phased out whenever it comes up in my experience, with people preferring to stick Dio/Jotaro up against more closely aligned characters.


I don't see that. It seems more like people just don't put these guys in a lot of matches lately I guess due to their feats being done and over with and less people from back in the day wanting to argue as much and so the newer guys don't have the knowledge to argue them as well.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

> last I heard characters that can attack hundreds of times per second are considered something like supersonic or slightly hypersonic so I thought being FTL would make sense for SP and The World to be able to punch that much in the 5 to 9 seconds they have since FTL shits on speeds like Supersonic, at least that is what I thought the OBD agreed on.



the problem isn't the time frame

its the idea that the world/star platinum/jotaro/dio/whoever is capable of throwing that many consecutive punches at full power for each and every one of them

stamina is a thing and it's not really implied anywhere in the text that they can sustain a chain of hits that long, we're talking like a billion hit combo with no breaks to rest.


----------



## Akatora (Oct 9, 2015)

TehDarkDarkOfPerdition said:


> If Gin can't survive Aizen's aura, then Aizen wouldn't have been able to touch Gin's arm, he would have vaped Gin's arm making it impossible for Aizen to even grab it




Just pointing out here that Aizen grabbing onto Gin's arm removed part of Gins arm.
So the aura effect captain lvl Shinigami just to a lower degree than the regular souls.

Grab:



Result:


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 9, 2015)

> I thought the fact that they both move faster then the speed of light is what gave that point legitimacy
> 
> last I heard characters that can attack hundreds of times per second are considered something like supersonic or slightly hypersonic so I thought being FTL would make sense for SP and The World to be able to punch that much in the 5 to 9 seconds they have since FTL shits on speeds like Supersonic, at least that is what I thought the OBD agreed on.


No to both.
Being able to move faster than light = being able to punch million/billion/etc times.
And while being able to punch a hundred times per second makes someone supersonic, it does not make anyone supersonic capable of punching a hundred times per second.
That's a non-sequitur.

Always thought it's a massive calc stacking/hiding the outlier anyway.


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 9, 2015)

Just regarding stamina,

Jotaro does in fact punch for the full duration of his timestop multiple times

Albeit that's when his timestop is a lot shorter

There's still a point to be made about the fact that the effects are never observed in terms of energy released or whatever, but then Star Platinum is potentially stronger than weather report anyway from hype (this is super iffy though)

For me it's one of the things that I don't actually _believe_ about JoJo but I'll still argue for it for the sake of what I see as consistent standards across the board

A better "cheat your way to victory with timestop" method is phasing a mind control bud into the opponent's head but that never comes up


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

but how can you tell that Jotaro/SP is indeed punching at triple digit FTL speeds for the entire duration?

also for the record when does jotaro punch for the full duration?


----------



## ThanatoSeraph (Oct 9, 2015)

That's fair, you can't really, beyond appealing to something as subjective as portrayal

Off the top of my head he does it against Sheer Heart Attack

I feel like there was one other example, but I can't think of it for the life of me

I do remember maybe seconds passing in exchanges between Jotaro/DIO and slowing down there would be fatal for either of them

But I'm unsure about that


----------



## God Movement (Oct 9, 2015)

Well, what's Aizen's durability?

If we assume Dio punches him for the entire time stop period he's going to fuck Aizen's shit up. Bloodlust would assume he does, but I've never seen anyone debate any potential stamina issues.


----------



## Qinglong (Oct 9, 2015)

Jotaro might have stamina issues but there's no reason DIO should


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Well, what's Aizen's durability?
> 
> If we assume Dio punches him for the entire time stop period he's going to fuck Aizen's shit up. Bloodlust would assume he does, but I've never seen anyone debate any potential stamina issues.



hard to say

Mugetsu failed to kill him and Mugetsu is probably roughly on the same level as timestop accumulation

actually how strong was timestop accumulation again? I'm recalling single digit teratons

was it actually gigatons?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

mmm

I don't agree with the teeth calc

for one thing that was already accomplished via barrage

for a second brohan is assuming that the entire teeth volume was violently fragmented when what the scans show is more just that he broke them at the roots and launched them


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Oct 9, 2015)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> That's fair, you can't really, beyond appealing to something as subjective as portrayal
> 
> Off the top of my head he does it against Sheer Heart Attack




*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Ramius (Oct 9, 2015)

teeth calc is wrong, just straight up wrong, as far as applying it here is concerned anyway. Only way Dio gets country level is if we assume that Tarkus' serious strike = Dio's each and every millions of punches during the timestop, which is bullshit.

Basically Aizen wins


----------



## Shining Force (Oct 9, 2015)

A Draw/Inconclusive Match for now. Dio would take this via TKO. Aizen's reiatsu would hurt him if he comes too close. But if he could keep his range, then he could get a stalemate/TKO.


----------



## Haro (Oct 9, 2015)

Tarkus is literally a joke compared to Dio and Za warldo.

Jonathan pretty casually killed tarkus.

Yet Dio could have murdered  tarkus on the spot there. and unless you think Tarkus>>>Dio

Then dio scales pretty easily.

Hell when he became high dio, he became the full potential of his power. The worlds power>>>Dio's


SC was able to pierce through dio and Vanillia ice. Vampires are just more powerful zombies.

So yeah. Dio should scale to tarkus pretty casually.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

The question isn't so much if Dio scales to tarkus (he clearly does)

the question is

can dio or the world mudamudamuda with the same strength as tarkus, for each punch, billions/trillions of times, without stopping or resting at all?

Like, it's vaguely plausible but it's also one of those things I'm not exactly convinced is in the text, you have to read in to it very heavily to get this result. It's like the Jupiter sized naruto planet argument, technically there are scalings that would make it so and it's vaguely plausible considering the scale of everything but it's implied exactly nowhere in the text and you have to read in to it very, very heavily.

Like we talk about author intent a lot in the obd but something few people mention is reader bias, i.e inserting meaning that's not there.


----------



## Chainwave (Oct 9, 2015)

Don't remember much about Jojo, but isn't it true that Star Platinum couldn't remove all the knives that were thrown at Jotaro by Dio, even during time stop?


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 9, 2015)

When Star Platinum used it's own Time-Stop, it could move for it's 1 second.

Once that ended, Jotaro got knifed.


----------



## bitethedust (Oct 9, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> The question isn't so much if Dio scales to tarkus (he clearly does)
> 
> the question is
> 
> ...



Tarkus did his cliff-busting thing casually.

Stands always spam their punches at high-speed, not even once they've been tired of doing this in the manga. Not even once. Neither did the Stand users mention anything along the lines of it.

Jotaro did the time-stack thing against Sheer Heart Attack, he went all out for the full duration of the timestop and he didn't mention to be tired at all. Going all out kind of implies that every hit was going as hard as it could.

Call me biased, but for me It's kind of hard to think that Dio, the superhuman character with superhuman stamina is somehow going to be tired or unable to pull off the same thing a regular, human Stand user with similar stats and powers did.


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2015)

bitethedust said:


> Tarkus did his cliff-busting thing casually.
> 
> Stands always spam their punches at high-speed, not even once they've been tired of doing this in the manga. Not even once. Neither did the Stand users mention anything along the lines of it.
> 
> ...



Honesty when was it ever shown or stated that stands like SP and The World do not paunch with the same force every time they attack?

I read part 3 a couple of times and Jotaro nor Dio state that their stands do not paunch with less force when they go for a full barrage compared to just doing it once.


----------



## Sablés (Oct 9, 2015)

>paunch


triggered


----------



## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Pretty sure the point that Dartg is making isn't about whether or not they punch for the whole duration

Or whether or not they're going all out for that duration

But whether or they can maintain punches achieving hundreds of c for all that

Or whether every single punch, which number in the dozens of billions if you assume that the above holds true and that there are no wasted moments or movements, maintains that level of destructive power


----------



## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Like, your average speed over the course of a marathon is probably less than what you'd be clocking in at during a hundred meter dash, even if you're putting in the same level of effort for either

Similar concept here

The proposed gap is probably more disparate in this case but you get the idea


----------



## Sablés (Oct 9, 2015)

Doesn't seem like a stretch to me honestly


----------



## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Shush Tables


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> >paunch
> 
> 
> triggered



Okay, okay I admit that was a fuck up 

Will be sure to fix that mistake in the future.


----------



## Sablés (Oct 9, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Shush Tables



Dunno man, GOATaro was pretty adamant on beating the shit out of Sheer Heart Attack. If we're talking about a stamina issue, it'd make more sense for him to go full force and get tired afterwards but he doesn't so much as sweat IIRC. 

Kinda indicates that stamina isn't much of a problem when he's using full power and I don't see Jotaro as the kind of person to hold back nor the situation prompting  him to do so either

Stay upset, fgt


----------



## NostalgiaFan (Oct 9, 2015)

Regicide said:


> But whether or they can maintain punches achieving hundreds of c for all that
> 
> Or whether every single punch, which number in the dozens of billions if you assume that the above holds true and that there are no wasted moments or movements, maintains that level of destructive power



Thing is I have never even heard of this happening int the story 

All I ever saw was SP and The World punching and not showing anything close to slowing down or doing so with less force then they usually do.


----------



## Regicide (Oct 9, 2015)

Liquid said:


> Stay upset, fgt


Shouldn't you be busy _NEVER EVER_ rolling Gil


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 9, 2015)

It doesn't matter that it was casual, that proves its easily replicatable yes and dio can likely spam many punches like that but it doesn't prove he caun launch a hundred billion of them over 11 seconds of time.

tap the desk really quickly, keep going for as long as you can, willing to bet you don't get close to even 10k before your arm becomes tired.

Hell, my arm gets tired when I write in exams for extended periods of times, you get cramps from doing the same motion over and over again, you have to take a break just to ease the monotony and do something else for awhile.

As far as I'm concerned saying Dio can punch 100 billion times in quick succession is wank.

I don't care about the speed or how fast he does it, I care about the idea that Dio can just launch a barrage of 100 billion punches in a row. That kind of stamina is completely unsupported.


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 9, 2015)

Isn't that why Time-Stop makes it worse?

Since nothing is absorbing that force away from the area hit, multiplying the total power behind it every time Dio lands a blow.

Replace that table with you tapping glass with the Time-Stop active and all that tapping force doesn't get absorbed by the whole glass, but stays in that one spot. You keep hitting that same spot with the same force, and it becomes a multiplier effect and that spot in the glass can't resist that level of force, making it break when the glasses threshold is reached.

So how much power per punch would Dio need to throw out on average, multiplied by how many he throws in however many seconds The World's Time-Stop(11secs right?) lasts, to reach Aizen's durability threshold.

I pretty sure thats what you guys have already said, and thats why we need to know the most number of punches Dio *and* The World can throw out together. Isn't that what Dio did to Jotaro with his "ROAD ROLLA DA" as it was crushing him.

Aren't Stands as powerful as the User? So, whatever chain punches The World can do, Dio can also do, making the total number of punches multiply by 2 with The World and Dio doing the punching on the same spot.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 9, 2015)

Dio can punch pretty quickly himself, but I don't really think he can do as much as his stand nor move as quickly. People even argue about whether or not stand user's get reactions comparable to their stands (which is stupid I know), but it doesn't make sense for them to be as fast as the stand.


----------



## Jag77 (Oct 10, 2015)

I saw the title of the thread and I so had to see the shitstorm.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2015)

In all seriousness, Dio couldn't put a scratch on someone like Aizen. Knives and a steamroller drop aren't going to do shit when guys not even half as strong as Aizen can stand there barechesting SS arc Ichigo's Shikai without any damage.

Za Warudo's timestop could be troublesome, but someone at Aizen's level could casually remove Dio's head before he has a chance to process the thought of using it. I suppose there's the technical point that Dio is immortal, but let's not forget the primary purpose of a Zanpakuto is to exorcise spirits. Dio's going to hell.


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 10, 2015)

SS Arc Ichigo is out of context(he lost his intent and was replaced with fear. In Bleach losing your will to fight is really major. Like how Ichigo was scared of his hollow taking over causing him to nearly lose to a fodder level hollow when he had Captain level Reiatsu back with Byakuya and then gained his Bankai) , where as he only has Captain level power and only unlocking his Shikai by the time he confronts Byakuya.

Gin, who is also Captain level, rekt Aizen's shit.

Look back a few pages for that discussion.

Also "Bleach Power Levels"

Plus, not sure if Bleach's sending people to their afterlife/hell works out of their verse.


----------



## Regicide (Oct 10, 2015)

No "Itachi solos"?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> In all seriousness, Dio couldn't put a scratch on someone like Aizen. Knives and a steamroller drop aren't going to do shit when guys not even half as strong as Aizen can stand there barechesting SS arc Ichigo's Shikai without any damage.
> 
> Za Warudo's timestop could be troublesome, *but someone at Aizen's level could casually remove Dio's head before he has a chance to process the thought of using it.* I suppose there's the technical point that Dio is immortal, but let's not forget the primary purpose of a Zanpakuto is to exorcise spirits. Dio's going to hell.



How would Aizen who's massively slower blitz Dio like that?


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> No "Itachi solos"?



Only if there are no rocks around.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> No "Itachi solos"?



It's implied. 



MusubiKazesaru said:


> How would Aizen who's massively slower blitz Dio like that?



Outside of timestop Dio doesn't even come close to keeping up with Aizen.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Outside of timestop Dio doesn't even come close to keeping up with Aizen.



Dio himself can react and flick away Hierophant Green's Emerald Splash casually and his stand is at least as faster as Silver Chariot which is like 300c. Bleach doesn't even come close.


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 10, 2015)

What's HG's speed like?

And Za Warudo being as fast as Silver Chariot doesn't mean Dio himself is. Unless I missed something important.


----------



## XImpossibruX (Oct 10, 2015)

So has the thread reached a verdict?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> What's HG's speed like?
> 
> And Za Warudo being as fast as Silver Chariot doesn't mean Dio himself is. Unless I missed something important.



It's not Dio himself, it's his stand. Stand user's can at least react as fast as their stands otherwise none of the fights in the series would make any sense while the stands themselves move at those speeds. There's also multiple FTL feats done by part 2 characters. HG is at least MHS from Jolyne who has the same speed stat, but he can tangle with FTL A rank stands so we have it in the relativistic range.

There is a legitimate issue with the teeth calc, like it was said earlier, but Tarkus scaling is more than fair since Dio himself benefits from it.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

welp here we go with FTL stand users: dead horse edition


----------



## Regicide (Oct 10, 2015)

You know

If I tried surface area shenanigans on the start of Fake Karakura Town for hollows twenty-two kilometers away being blown up from the combined reiatsu of the twelve or so captain-level people there

I'd get some lower end city block for passive energy release per person

Which would probably be applicable to mullet Aizen and up's "fuck you" fields?


----------



## trance (Oct 10, 2015)

>Bleach
>Against JJBA


----------



## Regicide (Oct 10, 2015)

The damning part is that there's halfway compelling arguments for Aizen here


----------



## trance (Oct 10, 2015)

I mean, Dio has FTL reaction speed and that time stop. Ain't that enough to merk any Bleach character?


----------



## Sablés (Oct 10, 2015)

No

because Aizen counters DIO's offense hard.


----------



## Regicide (Oct 10, 2015)

Basically it's questionable whether or not Dio/The World can actually touch Aizen without fists being vaporized first, I think


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

Couple things

Can dio get through the aura? Za Warudo would have to be more durable than Gin at least in order to do this.

Can Za Warudo actually do enough damage to kill aizen in the first timestop?

If not, can Dio last long enough to use The World for a second time and would this second time then be enough for a kill?

etc

This seems to heavily favour Aizen at the moment, his durability and regen should simply be too high for Dio to manage to kill him and a casual cero/hado/literally anything tbh from Aizen would wreck him in return.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

At most The World and the other stronger JJBA characters don't go any higher than city block in terms of durability.

There is that one instance of Kira getting hit by a barrage of punches by SP but he was really fucked up. Idk where that would place his durability.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2015)

Sheer Heart Attack only I think we give island+ or something, but it could get the full scaling. It wasn't destroyed and Kira's hand didn't blow up, but Killer Queen doesn't get it. Part 2 has some characters that go above city block+ I think.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

Oh yeah I forgot Kars. But can we scale from him? He has regen and reactive adaption


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Sheer Heart Attack only I think we give island+ or something, but it could get the full scaling. *It wasn't destroyed and Kira's hand didn't blow up, but Killer Queen doesn't get it.* Part 2 has some characters that go above city block+ I think.



Yeah with shit like that I tend to believe Araki forgets or completely ignores the fact that Stand damage goes back to the user tbh


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Yeah with shit like that I tend to believe Araki forgets or completely ignores the fact that Stand damage goes back to the user tbh



Actually that was one of the better examples of a stand user being affected by what happens to his stand. Earlier on Echoes Act 3 uses its gravity ability and Kira's had gets weighed down and when SHA actually got cracked and damaged, the same thing happened to Kira's hand. It's just that SHA is only one part of the stand and thus only affects that one part of the body.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

So then how do we treat this durability wise?


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

Island level+ Kira? I approve


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 10, 2015)

Stop your wanking, magina.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

Sheer Heart Attack had some weird durability things going on that no other part of Killer Queen/Kira had iirc


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Stop your wanking, magina.


No 


nightbringer said:


> Sheer Heart Attack had some weird durability things going on that no other part of Killer Queen/Kira had iirc



Nah Kira is just island level+. Simple really


----------



## Sablés (Oct 10, 2015)

Yoshikage Kira

Sounds like some mook a half-dead rusty Jotaro murked with the ultimate stand, Star Platinum.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

My little Jotaro can't possibly be this perfect


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

Well Jotaro is the stronkest


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

Mangaka's pet =/= strongest


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

it does tbf


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 10, 2015)

SHA was independent of Kira and Killer Queen on top of having bullshit good durability.

So that's the reason the damage wasn't transferred back to Kira when Jotaro did his thing.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

Stfu Rob 

Kira = Island level. Stop downplaying


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 10, 2015)

SHA is an ability of Kira

Therefore Kira is Island level by association.


My logic is flawless


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

SHA is autonomous

kira gets nothing


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 10, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> SHA is autonomous
> 
> kira gets nothing


Your face is autonomously ugly


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

since it's autonomously ugly that doesn't reflect on me


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

Downplayerg pls go


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

Kira>dio tho


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

You can stay for a while I guess


----------



## GiveRobert20dollars (Oct 10, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> since it's autonomously ugly that doesn't reflect on me



Exactly

therefore you don't have a face


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

Faces are overrated


----------



## BreakFlame (Oct 10, 2015)

And this was going so well, too.


----------



## Freddy Mercury (Oct 10, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Stfu Rob
> 
> Kira = Island level. Stop downplaying



Island level firetrucks?


----------



## Imagine (Oct 10, 2015)

Island level firetrucks.


----------



## AngryHeretic (Oct 10, 2015)

So Dio wins, it seems. As expected.


----------



## Regicide (Oct 10, 2015)

How did you come to that conclusion


----------



## AngryHeretic (Oct 10, 2015)

That seemed to be where this thread was headed before the derailment.


----------



## Regicide (Oct 10, 2015)

No it wasn't


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 10, 2015)

How didn't he come to that conclusion?


----------



## JoJo (Oct 10, 2015)

Another win for DIO


----------



## AngryHeretic (Oct 10, 2015)

Regicide said:


> No it wasn't



Dio-sama would like to have a word with you.


----------



## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2015)

i love jojo but i'm honestly doubting we can do what we do with za warudo and SP 
why don't we actually count the bigger amount of ora's or muda's in a time stop and then apply the damage stack ?
because if dio can shout muda he sure as hell can use more strenght than tarkus attack in it and the "it was never showed or stated to punch this much" is also solved


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 10, 2015)

Counting the onscreen mudas/oras would be very low end


----------



## Iwandesu (Oct 10, 2015)

well that's for sure 
do you have a better idea to get an acceptable value that doesn't relie on calc stacking punch speed to punch number ?
no like really, if anyone knows about a statement saying " X is throwing hundreds of punches" i would really aprreciate


----------



## J★J♥ (Oct 10, 2015)

Are not bleach characters Ghosts or am I missing something ?


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 10, 2015)

Only Stands can fight other Stands, or am I missing something.


----------



## God Movement (Oct 12, 2015)

What's the verdict on this shit

The idea that Dio would punch the same spot on Aizen's chest millions/billions of times even if he could is pretty ridiculous in itself


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

what if he was punching aizen's butthole


----------



## Imagine (Oct 12, 2015)

There's probably a doujin for that


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

there's actually a jap porn video where the premise is that a dude can stop time


----------



## Regicide (Oct 12, 2015)

God Movement said:


> What's the verdict on this shit
> 
> The idea that Dio would punch the same spot on Aizen's chest millions/billions of times even if he could is pretty ridiculous in itself


Dio loses


----------



## Iwandesu (Oct 12, 2015)

Neko senpai has spoken


----------



## Blocky (Oct 12, 2015)

Well, Least Dio solos via quality


----------



## ShadowReaper (Oct 12, 2015)

Dio wins both scenarios.


----------



## ShadowReaper (Oct 12, 2015)

Lol at someone believing VSB stats. Bleach is overwanked on VSB for a fact.


----------



## God Movement (Oct 12, 2015)

So what's an acceptable DC for Dio at this point. Realistically.


----------



## Imagine (Oct 12, 2015)

ShadowReaper said:


> Lol at someone believing VSB stats. Bleach is overwanked on VSB for a fact.



We don't use their stuff


----------



## Iwandesu (Oct 12, 2015)

God Movement said:


> So what's an acceptable DC for Dio at this point. Realistically.


something like town level ?
i mean he most likely has many dozens of mudas in panel in a single timestop


----------



## Imagine (Oct 12, 2015)

Is the teeth calc thrown out now? 

Tarkus' feat is 3.5 tons


----------



## Iwandesu (Oct 12, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Is the teeth calc thrown out now?
> 
> Tarkus' feat is 3.5 tons


wot ?
i'm pretty sure it put everyone in part 1 and 2 in city block range didn't it ?


----------



## Imagine (Oct 12, 2015)

Wait it's 19 tons. 

Damn comments


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 12, 2015)

This doesn't seem acceptable to me


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2015)

I thought damage calc stacking was cool as long as the attacks are in ridiculously quick succession and in the same general area? So regular Muda Combo wouldn't stack but time stopped Muda would since the damage accumulation would happen all at once (like how dio ripped apart Kak's network of Heirophant). I always thought country level Dio was weird, but it seems odd that this is now just being argued especially given how popular Dio is.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 12, 2015)

It's the same as Fang questioning stand user reactions (still retarded) in that way, but this actually does make more sense even if it's not something I'd personally want to happen. At the very least the teeth calc is no good because it was a barrage so we'd have to use a different value.


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

the low end for dio's dc is bread level but dio w/ taxi is street level


----------



## Solar (Oct 12, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> I thought damage calc stacking was cool as long as the attacks are in ridiculously quick succession and in the same general area? So regular Muda Combo wouldn't stack but time stopped Muda would since the damage accumulation would happen all at once (like how dio ripped apart Kak's network of Heirophant). I always thought country level Dio was weird, but it seems odd that this is now just being argued especially given how popular Dio is.



This has been argued before, and I thought it was settled that it wouldn't stack here due to the reasons moebringer brought up. At least, that's what seemed like consensus until this thread came up.


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It's the same as Fang questioning stand user reactions (still retarded) in that way, but this actually does make more sense even if it's not something I'd personally want to happen. At the very least the teeth calc is no good because it was a barrage so we'd have to use a different value.



But the combined energy of the barrage would still be happening all at once in Dio's case since Warudo and platinum are pretty close strength wise I thought?

Also if Warudo is FTL can't he just punch someone millions of times in 5 seconds? 1 million 19 ton punches


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

The argument isn't about the mechanics of the energy accumulating and stacking up

The argument is about

1. Can Dio actually sustain a barrage of that length
2. Does Dio punch for the full 11 seconds
3. Is each punch of the. Same strength?

Imo Dio can probably rack up some potent energies with a time stop mudamudamuda but atm I'm just not convinced that there's a plausible argument for the level being argued in Brohans or tacos calc.


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

this argument should be about my dank memeposting


----------



## KaiserWombat (Oct 12, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> the low end for dio's dc is bread level but dio w/ taxi is street level



stop it with the downplaying Luc, pls

low-end assumption is *loaves* of bread tier for destructive capacity

cop on now, raise your game, etc.


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 12, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> The argument isn't about the mechanics of the energy accumulating and stacking up
> 
> The argument is about
> 
> ...



Ok I see now. The first point I don't see a problem with. Why wouldn't Dio who is not only a vampire, but contains a Joe body have a problem with a simple Muda barrage? I would imagine using time stops alone would garner more energy.

The other two points I get now though.


----------



## Iwandesu (Oct 12, 2015)

fang questioning stand users ftl reactions is still bs 
they do have an smaller reaction time than stands but it is obviously still in the ftl range
hell broseph/kars and wham have many ftl and relativistic showings in part 2 and some of the others jojos should scalle to this without many problems imo


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 12, 2015)

Outside of stands with personalities, stands don't have their own reflexes (ie: SP's mild personality of being protective of Jotaro and White Snake having its own persona entirely). The user controls them to the t otherwise and Silver Chariot is one of the ones with no visible personality and Polnareff was the one who decided the timing on that attack on The Hanged Man, so he benefits from that.

Regarding this whole Dio fiasco, I think the "punching with the same strength" issue is more pertinent than the others. Just going by Jotaro's attack on SHA we can ascertain that Jotaro can at least punch for his time stop and that he can sustain a barrage of at least that length.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> Ok I see now. The first point I don't see a problem with. Why wouldn't Dio who is not only a vampire, but contains a Joe body have a problem with a simple Muda barrage? I would imagine using time stops alone would garner more energy.
> 
> The other two points I get now though.



The main problem for me is the chain of punches is essentially 100 billion or so long

Could Dio technically have the capacity for that? Mybe.

Can Dio actually punch 100 billion times within 11 seconds? Doubtful, it's well outside the scope established by the manga at least, imo.


----------



## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> The main problem for me is the chain of punches is essentially 100 billion or so long
> 
> Could Dio technically have the capacity for that? Mybe.
> 
> Can Dio actually punch 100 billion times within 11 seconds? Doubtful, it's well outside the scope established by the manga at least, imo.



wait has the manga ever put a limit on how many times dio can punch

that seems like a very specific limit to set which i imagine usually wouldn't come up. like, you wouldn't get a fight scene where dio's arms just got tired because he punched someone too many times and he was like "fuck it" and quit


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 12, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> wait has the manga ever put a limit on how many times dio can punch



none that I can remember


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> wait has the manga ever put a limit on how many times dio can punch
> 
> that seems like a very specific limit to set which i imagine usually wouldn't come up. like, you wouldn't get a fight scene where dio's arms just got tired because he punched someone too many times and he was like "fuck it" and quit



Nope but the leap between undisclosed but visibly hundreds or so at most and 100 billion is too much for me without additional supporting evidence

Besides a punch is more complicated than brohan is supposing, more goes into it than just sawing your arm back and forth, the speed is never constant in a chain of hits like that


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## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Nope but the leap between undisclosed but visibly hundreds or so at most and 100 billion is too much for me without additional supporting evidence
> 
> Besides a punch is more complicated than brohan is supposing, more goes into it than just sawing your arm back and forth, the speed is never constant in a chain of hits like that



i can understand why that leap would be too much

but if we break it down

what's the reason behind supposing dio's limited in how many times he can consecutively punch? muscle fatigue in the sense lactic acid buildup? or the material strength of his actual muscles? bc the former is prolly not a factor in his nonhuman psychology and the latter...iunno how to speculate on that


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> i can understand why that leap would be too much
> 
> but if we break it down
> 
> what's the reason behind supposing dio's limited in how many times he can consecutively punch? muscle fatigue in the sense lactic acid buildup? or the material strength of his actual muscles? bc the former is prolly not a factor in his nonhuman psychology and the latter...iunno how to speculate on that



All of the above I suppose

Build up off lactic acid
Material strength of muscles
Sheer energy requirements in the first place, Dio needs country levels worth of energy inside him to start with in order to output it into his punches, in the same way that you or I has to eat, digest and store energy from food before we can exercise effectively and so on
Probably more subtle things, like the material strength of dios fist would play a part


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## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

> Sheer energy requirements in the first place, Dio needs country levels worth of energy inside him to start with in order to output it into his punches, in the same way that you or I has to eat, digest and store energy from food before we can exercise effectively and so on



oh hey

yeah

this is true

even if we can ignore  fatigue and wear and tear on muscle, he can't output more energy than he can generate

so the question i guess is what's the most energy he's ever generated and how much could he be reasonably speculated to repeat that effort before exhaustion


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 12, 2015)

Why are we assuming all of this if The World is the one doing the punching to begin with? You know the stand that caused a universal time stop?


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

Because the problem still presents itself, especially the energy generation one

If you want to claim that the world can do a country level barrage because it's a universal stand then why not also planet busting or even star busting? We simply have no idea on the mechanics of timestop in jojo so you can't just handwave the problem with well the world stops time universally anyway


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## Lucaniel (Oct 12, 2015)

to be fair tho if we're just talking energy then the energy required to stop time in a universe for a microsecond is insanely more than it would take to obliterate aizen

im not sure you can even calculate the energy required


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

That's my point

Time stopping a universe for 11 seconds takes an incalculable amount of energy, but this is very clearly not energy Dio can apply to anything other than timestops, otherwise a single punch from a warudo should kill everyone since it has universal level energies

I.e that argument is logically inconsistent and strikes me as similar to hiding the outlier style arguments, "well we know he was actually far and away stronger than this, so this massive low end should be acceptable"

No it shouldn't, if you honestly believe that Dio is tossing around universal energies then make that your argument, don't use it as evidence for a teraton lvl barrage.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 12, 2015)

I'm not saying it can just toss it around. I'm just staying it's capable of that energy in general, thus using "The World does not have the energy to do "blank" doesn't really fly. Some of your other arguments were stronger than that. It's not going to run out of energy punching for 11 seconds if it can spam time stops like that.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> I'm not saying it can just toss it around. I'm just staying it's capable of that energy in general, thus using "The World does not have the energy to do "blank" doesn't really fly. Some of your other arguments were stronger than that.



But you haven't explained this at all

My argument is:

Za warudo has, among other problems, never displayed energy generation potent enough to be on par with teratons of tnt.

Your response is:

Well it did generate universe level energies to timestop the universe.

If you can't see how these things are so so incredibly disconnected as to be laughable then I can't help you.

Hint: if that energy was at all calculable and at all applicable to za warudo then Dio would be like an easy Galaxy level shoe in at minimum and that'd probably still be massive downplay.

The fact of the matter is that we have no idea by which means the time stop is co ducted and no idea how much energy that actually takes so using it as evidence that a warudo can punch good is highly questionable at best.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 12, 2015)

I think you're missing my point. All I'm saying is that it has the energy to be able to do what we've always stated it could do when you said there's no proof. It's not a matter of calculating anything nor applying it as DC or anything, I'm just saying that The World won't suddenly run out of energy mid-barrage. I'm not even saying that the time stop means it can punch enough to hit teratons, I'm saying if it could then there's a basis for it that isn't ridiculous. When have stands ever run out of energy aside from RHCP which steal electricity?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

When have stands ever had to launch a teraton barrage?

Stands have never run out energy is just as irrelevant as Dio can timestop the universe to this problem because none of them have had to do something comparable.


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## AngryHeretic (Oct 12, 2015)

Not jumping into the whole universal energy debate but...



nightbringer said:


> All of the above I suppose
> 
> Build up off lactic acid
> Material strength of muscles
> ...




How does this apply to stands? They aren't living beings, and there's no sign that stands rely on the energy (let alone perception, strength, etc.) possessed by their 'owners'. Unless we're arguing Dio himself being able to punch that many times, which isn't relevant since his stand's punches are what we generally base his power off of.

Or are we arguing that Dio is stronger than Za Warudo?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 12, 2015)

I use Dio and za warudo interchangeably here because they suffer from the same main problem 

Either way, prove the world has enough energy to punch a teraton barrage, that it can sustain a barrage of that many hits for that long and that its durable enough to take the kickback, also whatever other reasons I forget to mention here.

These problems are aside from the actual calc itself which has the additional flaw that it's calculated as if a punch is merely moving your arm back and forth, when in reality the impact and pull back before launching again eat way more time than the simple punch motion itself.


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## Keishin (Oct 12, 2015)

Aizen reiatsu crushes him to oblivion tbh


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## Regicide (Oct 12, 2015)

Kind of plausible, actually, if Aizen gets the opportunity

Fucker could reiatsu crush Grimmjow and all


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## Imagine (Oct 12, 2015)

I'll reiatsu your face


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 12, 2015)

Dio Muda's Aizen into oblivion tbh.


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## Regicide (Oct 12, 2015)

Imagine said:


> I'll reiatsu your face


You couldn't reiatsu the jelly out of a donut


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 12, 2015)

Dio teaches Aizen how to eat bread.


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## Imagine (Oct 12, 2015)

Regicide said:


> You couldn't reiatsu the jelly out of a donut



That doesn't seem to be the cuz you're mad jelly right now boi


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## RidleyMan (Oct 13, 2015)

Yeah there's 12 pages of this so just droppin this in case it easn't mentioned, just sayin that DIO is like the only legitimate FTL Stand User (reacted to a bloodlusted Star Platinum himself) and pulled a time stop while said punch was being thrown so unless Bleach got a speedboost he isn't pullin the move first, also worse case scenario DIO loses anyway or lacks the damage output with his 11 seconds, DIO fully synchronized with Jonathan Joestar's body or Novel DIO could probably take it, The D-Money gonna drop some road rollers powerful enough to crush hopes on someone.


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## Dr. White (Oct 13, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> Because the problem still presents itself, especially the energy generation one
> 
> If you want to claim that the world can do a country level barrage because it's a universal stand then why not also planet busting or even star busting? We simply have no idea on the mechanics of timestop in jojo so you can't just handwave the problem with well the world stops time universally anyway



Because wasn't the country level number based off scaling from a previous feat from star platinum? There is no source material scalable to Warudo that would put them at those level, the country level one is based off of a stand extremely comparable to Warudo physically.

All this physiological stuff like lactic acid buildup, and ATP usage is completely void here.
A. Dio is a vampire. He is undead and not confined by the constraints of regular humans. Not only is this a verse of super humans, but Dio is particularly a beast in stamina among them.
B. There is no way to equivocate natural energy processes with the supernatural ones in Jojo. That would be like guesstimating how much energy a simple Hamon punch could generate. How you equivocate that with amps or volts? The body is material and requires material fuel to do work, we have no idea how the heck a stand uses energy and what the equivalent of that is in humans terms. Red Hot chili pepper was using a shit ton of electrical power with his stand much more than a normal human brain could process by your logic he would have blew his neurons out because of the amps running through his head due to stand use.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

> Red Hot chili pepper was using a shit ton of electrical power with his stand much more than a normal human brain could process by your logic he would have blew his neurons out because of the amps running through his head due to stand use.



w-what?

how is that at all even remotely close to my argument 



> A. Dio is a vampire. He is undead and not confined by the constraints of regular humans. Not only is this a verse of super humans, but Dio is particularly a beast in stamina among them.



yeah but being a stamina beast doesn't just unlock 100 billion chain combo flawless victory

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

there's really no evidence at all that Dio's (or the world, again, they're equivalent to my argument) even thrown 100 billion punches in his entire life, let alone in an 11 second span.


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## Dr. White (Oct 13, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> w-what?
> 
> how is that at all even remotely close to my argument


You're saying one of the factors against Dio not being able to throw that multitude of punches is because of things like energy generation and lactic acid build up. RHCP would not be able to manipulate mass amounts of electricit if it built up that much energy inside his host body. Dio is not alive. He does not function via normal human body process, nor do the zombies he can make with his little leech things. Combined with him being a stamina beast in a superhuman world, and the fact that his stand is the one generating the energy (Dio is simply mentally commanding him and you can't equivocate mental command to the energy output associated with Warudo's punching) pretty much sums up my point on those factors being irrelevant.




> yeah but being a stamina beast doesn't just unlock 100 billion chain combo flawless victory


100 billion? Where are you getting this number from?



> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence


Obvy but where talking about a stand user, a high tier stand user with Joestar body combined with vampire body, who is also FTL. Dio can perceive a shit ton of punches per second let alone 11 seconds, if Warudo can move that fast  don't see a problem.



> there's really no evidence at all that Dio's (or the world, again, they're equivalent to my argument) even thrown 100 billion punches in his entire life, let alone in an 11 second span.


I don't know about 100 billion. But hundreds of thousands/millions maybe? Yeah if he really is FTL.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Oct 13, 2015)

The World and Dio aren't equivalent, using that in your argument is why this whole "not enough energy" argument isn't working. Stands are psychic manifestations of willpower/the soul, they aren't bound by the same limitations as living beings.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

> 100 billion? Where are you getting this number from?



the uh

the calc

that is central to this discussion we're currently having

and that you're arguing FOR right now





> You're saying one of the factors against Dio not being able to throw that multitude of punches is because of things like energy generation and lactic acid build up. RHCP would not be able to manipulate mass amounts of electricit if it built up that much energy inside his host body. Dio is not alive. He does not function via normal human body process, nor do the zombies he can make with his little leech things. Combined with him being a stamina beast in a superhuman world, and the fact that his stand is the one generating the energy (Dio is simply mentally commanding him and you can't equivocate mental command to the energy output associated with Warudo's punching) pretty much sums up my point on those factors being irrelevant.



this is not my argument pls no strawman



> The World and Dio aren't equivalent, using that in your argument is why this whole "not enough energy" argument isn't working. Stands are psychic manifestations of willpower/the soul, they aren't bound by the same limitations as living beings.



>literally arguing stands have infinite/non-determinable amounts of energy to throw around willy nilly

okay so I'm not gonna bother responding to you any more champ


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## Freechoice (Oct 13, 2015)

reading imagini's sabre's and nightbinger's posts is the best


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

for the record since you apparently aren't aware of the magnitudes involved here

The World has to throw this many punches

751,368,750,000

that's seven hundred and fifty one billion, three hundred and sixty eight million, seven hundred and fifty thousand punches.

consecutively

with no breaks

and each one is exactly as strong as the previous


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

hell you know what

I'm gonna start calling this number a trillion instead of a hundred billion


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## Sablés (Oct 13, 2015)

go to bed


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

>8pm


----------



## Sablés (Oct 13, 2015)

dont sass me, kiddo 

inb4older


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

Liquid said:


> dont sass me, kiddo
> 
> inb4older





begone tbh


----------



## Velocity (Oct 13, 2015)

Yeeeeeaaaah... Given Aizen's reiatsu is so strong now he needs special restraints just to stop him passively killing everyone in the general area, Dio would need some incredible durability feats to not just die from Aizen looking at him.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

Clay said:


> Yeeeeeaaaah... Given Aizen's reiatsu is so strong now he needs special restraints just to stop him passively killing everyone in the general area, Dio would need some incredible durability feats to not just die from Aizen looking at him.


eh?

the guy whose hands aizen burned off was a random fodder, not an undead vampire with way above superhuman stats who can regenerate


----------



## Mappa Douji (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't see the problem with Dio attacking the full 11 seconds in time stop. Him using it and fighting didn't seem to drain him all that much from what I could see. And he used it quite a bit. I'm pretty sure humans could keep up punches that long much less super human vampire dudes. I have no idea where people get this country level thing though? Dude could easily lift a steam roller though. Now I'll be honest here, I've only watched the new anime. Is the manga vastly different and gives additional information?

On a side note, I want a Dio set tbh


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## Fenrir (Oct 13, 2015)

why can't dio punch for 11 seconds again?

i mean he had the stamina to pull a steamroller out of fucking nowhere and batter it nonstop until the timestop ended


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## Fenrir (Oct 13, 2015)

btw i'm not reading this whole thread so fill me in


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 13, 2015)

The problem is dishing out _trillions_ of punches nonstop, all with the same intensity and at the exact same spot.
The act of Punching is more than just retracting and stretching your arms, people.


----------



## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> eh?
> 
> the guy whose hands aizen burned off was a random fodder, not an undead vampire with way above superhuman stats who can regenerate


No like

Fucker ate part of Gin's arm back when the latter took the Hogyoku

Gin is at least town level


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## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Liquid said:


> dont sass me, kiddo
> 
> inb4older


Tables how many people aren't older than you


----------



## Imagine (Oct 13, 2015)

Yeah the problem isn't Dio punching for a full 11 secs, it's him actually reaching a ridiculous amount in 11 secs.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Oct 13, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Tables how many people aren't older than you



>tfw i realise he was still in diapers when i started at high school


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2015)

Thread is premature to use current Aizen, he's implied to be stronger than when he fought Ichigo in FKT but his reiatsu is limited/compressed around him due to his chair. Anyway

FKT Aizen: Would lose if he can't blitz Dio before timestop and phase(Dio ripping out his heart) unless it's Aizen in his monster form. 

Other hand?Not sure about speed, Bleach speed is mostly unquantifiable outside some recent stuff like Juha/Ichibei for example. JJBA has quantifiable speed/reactions on it's side, thus Dio could go first and phase through Aizen to kill him assuming Base/Shinigami Aizen.

Current: He'd win, Dio can't hurt him, phasing would not work due to the Hogyouku regening his heart or organs being ripped or damaged. At best Dio could hope for a stalemate.

There is also Aizen possibly messing up First Invasion Juha's perception of time or such, someone claimed it was a mistranslation and he just distracted him with talks, not sure. We don't know the full extent of current Aizen's powers so not much to work with outside powerscaling off Transcendant Aizen in FKT or lower.



> The problem is dishing out trillions of punches nonstop, all with the same intensity and at the exact same spot.
> The act of Punching is more than just retracting and stretching your arms, people.



One, please cite the number of punches from a canon source.  If you make a claim X character can do X punches because he moves X speed, it needs a canon citing not fanon making an assumption. This is like saying if X character moves lightspeed, he must punch with so much energy, it's a fanon claim albeit made by scientific calcs and may not be supported by canon. A scientific calc or number is fine but we know stuff like speed and number of strikes or speed and energy need not correlate in fiction.

We can have a character whose lightspeed and be stated as doing only a 100 punches, writers don't calc this stuff, so making an assumption without a canon feat or reliable statement is fanon. Evidence>speculation based on something in canon>>>speculation based on nothing. 

Two, why would these trillions of Tarkus level+ punches do anything to a guy who would considering Dio Brando's physical stats even in Base Karakura Town a joke, let alone many levels above that since he could survive/no sell things capable of killing his base form in his condom form let alone 2 or 3 levels above. This is like saying if a bullet can't scratch Superman then maybe 900 quintillion bullets focused on the same spot might, it is reaching.

I mean Dio could do an infinite number of punches to say Superman at the same spot, it will do nothing and he'd arguably break his stand more likely, this is not an rpg where you can keep taking off 1 HP per punch and eventually wear down 50 million HP with 50 million punches. 

But for the sake of future reference, what do you think is the strongest level aka Dio hurting someone with durability way above anything he dishes out per punch do you want or believe he can overcome due to trillions of such punches?We know Kira's bombs can no sell Star Platinum a stand around or one level below The World with timestop punches of it's own.

Assuming we go with this, what would be the maximum he can hurt. Obviously not Kira's bombs whatever level those are and Za Warudo can break if Dio is weakened enough or something is that much above it. 

Dio is horribly underpowered as a superhuman, has some decent H4X but outside blood freezing most need to penetrate the opponent, even then blood freezing won't work going off what we saw of Aizen regenerating from Gin's bankai and a gaping hole even before he evolved further to monster form. The World is FTL, has a limited range needed for it to activate, a universal time stop when activated and phasing, the best Dio can do is stalemate due to Aizen's durability and regen.



> Yeeeeeaaaah... Given Aizen's reiatsu is so strong now he needs special restraints just to stop him passively killing everyone in the general area



Comparing featless/shitty fodder to Dio?We go with strongest thing he's done it too, he's not done it to someone of Dio level yet.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Oct 13, 2015)

That being said Dio Brando is a better magnificent bastard. Aizen is just Naraku V2.


----------



## Vivi Ornitier (Oct 13, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> Dio force feeds aizen to eat a baby.
> 
> But Aizen had already planned on eating the baby so he hid a bomb under the baby's left foot before dio could notice.
> 
> ...



Shit thread should have ended at this gem


----------



## God Movement (Oct 13, 2015)

Let's be honest. Dio can't pull out Aizen's heart. This idea that a fictional character's internal organs are just as weak as ours is ridiculous. If that was the case they'd be crushed by the sheer impact of the attacks these guys get hit with. You're going to need comparable-ish strength to his durability to harm or pull his heart out of his chest.


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 13, 2015)

Ended at the first Muda. The rest are just for the sake of formality.


And no, internal organs can't be trained like the body can be.

This is well known, even in fiction. Unless stated otherwise why should it be any different.


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## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Internal organs are going to be weaker than the external parts

They're still going to be only proportionally weaker and not lesser by orders of magnitude

Otherwise you'd see characters in fiction splattering their insides whenever they have to take or throw a punch

Energy doesn't stop penetrating at skin level or anything


----------



## XImpossibruX (Oct 13, 2015)

Hold up Aizen actually has a good chance? Thought this thread would last at most 10 responses, mostly consisting of "Dio stomps"


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

Dio can stalemate for as long as he can timestop, how quickly could he chain them again? It was a while between each timestop right?


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 13, 2015)

Regicide said:


> Internal organs are going to be weaker than the external parts
> 
> They're still going to be only proportionally weaker and not lesser by orders of magnitude
> 
> ...



Unless the skin had that much more energy that the energy attacking it can't get past it at all.

Just saying, most of the time in fiction the body's "shell" takes the hit and "deflects/absorbs" the damage from entering to the insides of the body. To a certain level of course, once the outside body's endurance is reached it can't "deflect/absorb" any more energy and it breaks. Causing the internal organs to get hit now that the "shell" doesn't stop that energy from reaching them now.

I don't see why organs should gain a boost to endurance because of the very reason its the person's outer body that is the source to that endurance. So the outer body works like a hard shell protecting the insides from harm. You need to apply more force than that shell can take to get to the inside of it. Unless the person trained their organs to be stronger at some point, thats all I'm saying.

The reason they don't splatter their insides is because that "shell" is that strong. So if a person stands still, gets hit by a train, but is completely fine from the hit. That means the person's "shell" is that much stronger that it can "absorb/deflect" that energy before it can enter the body to cause damage.

Things change if they can bypass that "shell" and attack the organs directly.


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## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Except no that's retarded and not implied

Occam's razor doesn't favor that interpretation

Particularly when it doesn't explain the part where fictional characters are still going to be liquefying their insides when they have to physically exert themselves if said insides aren't on the same general level as the rest of them


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## Imagine (Oct 13, 2015)

Shut the dick up Regi


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

imagine wanting to shut the dick up?

that's new


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## Imagine (Oct 13, 2015)

I got dis dick with Luc's name on it 

He keep talking and I'ma show him the way on it


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

well, i suppose even an ugly fuckboy would have quite the collection of penises


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## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Incoming Wombat


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

inb4 lock

though this thread was kinda interesting

oh well


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## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Everything went better than expected


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> though this thread was kinda interesting



man we were such a bad influence on you

you've become such a masochistic nerd


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## Haro (Oct 13, 2015)

Can this die plz.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> man we were such a bad influence on you
> 
> you've become such a masochistic nerd



I'm sending u all the bill for therapy


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## Haro (Oct 13, 2015)

Dio thread got no were.

Surprise of the fucking year


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## KaiserWombat (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't think there's an immediate distress or urgency to have this thread shut down, from what I've followed in the past few pages at least

on the other hand, though

Is this topic necessarily going to end with a semblance of a resolution? Because if it's teeming with arguments and tangents which are just going all circular until the cessation of all mankind and the sundering of the planet at the hands of...well, the Sun


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

KaiserWombat said:


> I don't think there's an immediate distress or urgency to have this thread shut down, from what I've followed in the past few pages at least
> 
> on the other hand, though
> 
> Is this topic necessarily going to end with a semblance of a resolution? Because if it's teeming with threads which are just going all circular until the cessation of all mankind and the sundering of the planet at the hands of...well, the Sun


dat sentence fragment

if it's teeming with them, then what?


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## KaiserWombat (Oct 13, 2015)

Wait, what the fuck 

Oh boy, better get straight back into proper syntax mode over here, pronto!

There: edited so that it at least makes a modicum of sense as a paragraph with intent.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

I don't think its fixed wombat


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

> Because *if *it's teeming with arguments and tangents which are just going all circular until the cessation of all mankind and the sundering of the planet at the hands of...well, the Sun



this if is never closed

ur basically saying If X then Y

but ur sentence has no "then Y" in it


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

yeah it ain't

kaiser

you started to say a statement like "if x, then y"

but you've only said the "if x" part. 



> Because *if it's teeming with arguments and tangents which are just going all circular until the cessation of all mankind and the sundering of the planet at the hands of...well, the Sun*



if it's x, then what?

edit:

FUCK U DARTG


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 13, 2015)

So who won?


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## Haro (Oct 13, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> So who won?



We all lost.

Especially regi


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

tfw hivemind with luc


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

nice try modbat


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 13, 2015)

Wombat getting cornered.


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

nightbringer said:


> nice try modbat



top lel 

kaiser u qt 3.14


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## KaiserWombat (Oct 13, 2015)

lol

You hoodwinked me good there, Dartg.

But, this thread has begun to thoroughly fly off the rails of steady on-topic discussion now.

So now I am (kinda, sorta) being placed into a position to just lock the thread and be done with this exercise; anyone wish to continue the debate at hand, or at the very least present some final words before closure (but who the fuck does that kind of thing in an online vs debate anyway?).


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 13, 2015)

> some final words


Aizen stomps.


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## Haro (Oct 13, 2015)

No conclusion was made. Unless you think zenith knows what he is talking about


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## Solar (Oct 13, 2015)

Since when were you under the impression that Aizen wouldn't win this?


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## Sablés (Oct 13, 2015)

Muda got keikaku'd this round

stay    mad


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## Haro (Oct 13, 2015)

Frederica Bernkastel said:


> Since when were you under the impression that Aizen wouldn't win this?



Since the moment people said Part one dio doesn't casually scale to Tarkus to the upmost of ease


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 13, 2015)

closing () statement: evidence points to an aizen victory on the whole


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## Lucaniel (Oct 13, 2015)

maybe i should've gone with kanye instead of rozay


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 13, 2015)

St@y mad, nerd.


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## Haro (Oct 13, 2015)

Lucaniel said:


> maybe i should've gone with kanye instead of rozay



Yeezus is the only way people should end threads


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## Regicide (Oct 13, 2015)

Aizen wins

Better luck next time, Dio


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## Blocky (Oct 13, 2015)

.This thread is getting confusing now


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