# DBZ has been surpassed.



## sasykei (Nov 23, 2014)

Thank you Kishimoto for this masterpiece river of feels. 
Naruto has perfectly developed cast of characters, no ridicilous amount of world building like in toriko or one piece. The suspense and mystery, such as the identity of Tobi has been something I have never felt before. I.. don't know what to do anymore. I am officially done witj mangas and that's all I wanted to say in all honesty. I am def going to watch The Last atleast so it is  all bad.

Btw I have never seen anything like Sasuke vs Naruto before and never probaby will. I'm thankful I picked this up years ago.

Sasuke vs Naruto surpassed the Goku vs Vegeta by miles no doubt. Still watching the Kai for nostalgia atleast.
[Youtube]_JT6Tb-CU_c[/youtube]

Bye


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## ch1p (Nov 23, 2014)

No          .


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## Blu-ray (Nov 23, 2014)

No. No it hasn't.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

Dammit I was expecting an argument.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 23, 2014)

Good job everyone who read your post got a little bit dumber.
Naruto vs sasuke better than goku vs vegeta you must've lost your mind


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## Kenzo (Nov 23, 2014)

lolno                .


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## Elicit94 (Nov 23, 2014)

YuYu Hakusho > DBZ > Naruto


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## Stunna (Nov 23, 2014)

**


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## thehumangod1 (Nov 23, 2014)

I thought this thread was going to be an announcement of Naruto surpassing Dragonball in volume sales.


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

While Naruto has surpassed DBZ by a VAST VAST VAST margin, that is an EXTREMELY low bar. Dragon-Ball on the other hand is a bit more debatable


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Where does Naruto even fit in the discussion? They aren't even remotely the same.

One Piece is DBZ with Pirates.

That's before we even get to quality....

DB atleast didn't care about making sense. It was a wacky story from the outset that had fights and didn't take itself that serious.

Naruto tried very hard to tell an actual message and failed.


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

Oh please, even One Piece and Toriko are struggling to do that. Bad trolling attempt.


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

You know what's always stupid about these is that people compared the DBZ ANIME to the Naruto MANGA. 

The DBZ anime would be more appropriately compared to the Naruto Shippuden anime. The latter is shit, not even a close comparison.

Comparing the DRAGON BALL MANGA to the Naruto MANGA, DB had faster pacing.


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## BlinkST (Nov 23, 2014)

In before Nesha.


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> You know what's always stupid about these is that people compared the DBZ ANIME to the Naruto MANGA.
> 
> The DBZ anime would be more appropriately compared to the Naruto Shippuden anime. The latter is shit, not even a close comparison.
> 
> Comparing the DRAGON BALL MANGA to the Naruto MANGA, DB had faster pacing.


I'm sorry but Naruto Shippuden > DBZ Anime, by an absolutely vast margin. Naruto Shippuden's story is not the best, especially in the War-Arc, but at least it has a story, which DBZ lacked post-Frieza Arc, and the story even before that was much more off a mess than even Naruto at it's worst; for example at worst Naruto might have gotten to aliens by the end of the series (though even that is not confirmed); DBZ started with aliens. DBZ is what Naruto Shippuden would become if the story was continued after the final battle between Kaguya and Sasuke. And yes it had good action for it's time, but Naruto Shippuden's action is better, because it's animation and music quality is better, and at least Shippuden kept technique usage relevant all the way through the story and even at it's worse in the War-arc it didn't literally become totally a dick/ki chakra  measuring contest. 

And while the power-scale of Shippuden got ridiculous in the latter stages of the War-Arc, with everyone becoming fairly irrelevant beside a select few, it still did a better job including support characters than DBZ ever did. DBZ already was shafting character as badly (or worse) than even endgame Shippuden by it's second arc, and anywhere beyond that every single major side character had to be replaced by some new character because they were too vastly irrelevant on the power-scale, except Piccolo who barely managed to hang int their until the Cell-Saga, at which point he also became irrelevant and was Fodder "level" by the start of the Final Arc. Naruto Shippuden following the DBZ path would be like if Sasuke (as piccolo was Goku's main rival going into Z) helped Naruto defeat someone like Deidara, than he could barely put up a fight against Hidan, could only take on 1 or 2 Pain bodies, could only take on like 1 of Obito's Edo-Jinchuuriki, and than everyone above Rinnegan Obito would just be able to crush him with the force of their chakra. That's how bad that shit was.

With comparing the Anime aside, I don't even mind DBZ's pacing, though maybe that's because I watched it as movies back in the day which included 5 episodes on average, so that's not the reason at all why I feel it ages terribly, it's the story

DBZ is basically DB being forced beyond it's natural conclusion and while I think the War-Arc was like that for Naruto-Shippuden, at least it was only one Arc


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## Anko-san (Nov 23, 2014)

You guys fanboying over DB make me laugh. 

Dragon Ball (manga) was no doubt revolutionary, and truly amazing for its time. Key words: _for its time._

But right now? It's shit. Utter shit. Even Naruto which is not the best shonen craps all over it. 

Here are the facts:

DB character's rooster was pathetic, with Goku being the supreme all loving, all powerful mary sue in which sadly most shonen MCs are based.
I hate Naruto. I really do, but at least that guy has some actual flaws, actual doubts, and actual screw ups and I-need-someone-to-show-me-the-way momments. Goku is perfect since the beggining and never ceases to be. 
Background stories for the cast are mostly non existant sans Vegeta, Trunks, and maybe Piccoro. Goku will always kill main bosses, no one really matters at the end of the day, which got us predictable, boring fights. Whereas in Naruto you get stuff like Sasuke offin Oro, Itachi, and several other important chars. Hell even supporting guys like Shika got their chance to beat an Akatsuki member. 

The attacks were boring and repetitive: just punches and kicks and energy beams of different colors. (they were more creative in the beggining tho, I'm mostly talking about adult Goku era)
Can you really claim with a straight face that Naruto isn't hugely superior in this regard? I mean really. 

What was the motivation that drove the characters to act? Goku was just some happy go lucky  guy that wanted to live peacefully but then shit threatened the planet. So he and his friend battled to protect it.

Now that's deep.

Up until the end of the Freezer arc it still remained fairly strong, even with some emotional moments (Vegeta's death comes to mind) but after that? it went down the crapper and you know it. 

try this: I want to you to tell me the difference in personality between Yamcha and Krillin in say... Cell's arc. Not talking about power levels, just personality.

No?

Nothing?

That's because they're the fucking _same character._ Just like Tenshinhan is the exact same as Piccoro and adult Trunks.

So please stop. It doesn't make you cool. You just look stupid to anyone that has actually read their fair share of manga and knows the genre.

*tl; dr* DB was great in its time, but it's crap compared to some of the stuff we got nowadays, including Naruto.


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

Turrin, the DBZ anime had a story after Frieza, but it was more an episodic one without direction. That happens a lot. Toriko feels the same way for a long ways through the manga. In effect, it can be better because expectations aren't built up for the outcome from a very early point. Leaving out Luffy's desire to become Pirate King (which is easy to do since that's such a long ways off), even One Piece is episodic in its arcs many times.

That's actually where Naruto fell through, I think. I liked it when things were more episodic during part one. It was just Naruto growing up as a typical shinobi with a few special things that set him apart. That was it. Shippuden managed to effectively put him on a pedestal and make the entire story revolve around shit that wasn't even hyped or even barely, if at all, mentioned until halfway through Shippuden.



Anko-san said:


> You guys fanboying over DB make me laugh.
> 
> Dragon Ball (manga) was no doubt revolutionary, and truly amazing for its time. Key words: _for its time._
> 
> ...



At least Toriyama never made the reader feel like the side characters were going to become important just to completely fucking ignore them later on. I think you entirely skipped over Kishimoto's infamous ability to give his readers blue balls.


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## Cromer (Nov 23, 2014)

Not closed yet?


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## Skilatry (Nov 23, 2014)

DBZ was always shit anyway, even as a kid I thought it was the most basic shit, always prefered Pokemon, Digimon, Yugioh over that crap. Comparing DBZ to Naruto (even the bad war arc and ending) is like comparing Pong to Mega Man, there not even in the same league.


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry but Naruto Shippuden > DBZ Anime, by an absolutely vast margin. Naruto Shippuden's story is not the best, especially in the War-Arc, but at least it has a story, which DBZ lacked post-Frieza Arc, and the story even before that was much more off a mess than even Naruto at it's worst; for example at worst Naruto might have gotten to aliens by the end of the series (though even that is not confirmed); DBZ started with aliens.



Dragon Ball starting with aliens is a mark against it? What a ridiculous argument. 

Also Shippuden is inundated with fillers that DBZ can't even compare to. 



> DBZ is what Naruto Shippuden would become if the story was continued after the final battle between Kaguya and Sasuke.



Naruto Shippuden already went that route after Pain, and worse yet, tried to play at pseudo-philosophical musings at that. Someone only whose previous story would have to be "See Spot Run" would confuse for actual depth. 



> And yes it had good action for it's time, but Naruto Shippuden's action is better, because it's animation and music quality is better, and at least Shippuden kept technique usage relevant all the way through the story and even at it's worse in the War-arc it didn't literally become totally a dick/ki chakra  measuring contest.



No it didn't. Shippuden quickly became which jutsu made the biggest explosion. It became even moreso about a clash of chakra-zords more than anything. 



> And while the power-scale of Shippuden got ridiculous in the latter stages of the War-Arc, with everyone becoming fairly irrelevant beside a select few, it still did a better job including support characters than DBZ ever did.



Not really, because Naruto and Sasuke were the true difference makers at the end of the day. Kakashi got his temporary power-up, and Sakura even in spite of it was embarrassed time and again. 

Even little things like Mr. Satan complying with #16's wish, bringing out the good in Buu, or saving Vegeta was way more of a difference maker than the things Kishimoto did with those that were not descendants of the Sage.



> *DBZ already was shafting character as badly (or worse) than even endgame Shippuden by it's second arc, and anywhere beyond that every single major side character had to be replaced by some new character because they were too vastly irrelevant on the power-scale*, except Piccolo who barely managed to hang int their until the Cell-Saga, at which point he also became irrelevant and was Fodder "level" by the start of the Final Arc.



The lack of self-awareness you'd have to possess to post this is incredible. 



> Naruto Shippuden following the DBZ path would be like if Sasuke (as piccolo was Goku's main rival going into Z) helped Naruto defeat someone like Deidara, than he could barely put up a fight against Hidan, could only take on 1 or 2 Pain bodies, could only take on like 1 of Obito's Edo-Jinchuuriki, and than everyone above Rinnegan Obito would just be able to crush him with the force of their chakra. That's how bad that shit was.



Naruto Shippuden following DBZ would be like if it didn't make it seem like Sasuke was the main character 75% of the time. Naruto Shippuden following DBZ would be cutting aside the transparent attempts at depth, and being true to what it was: an action manga. Naruto Shippuden following DBZ would mean the main character actually seeming like one that actually was an underdog and rose to the top because he is a hard-worker, and not some artificially slapped on prophecies in order to re-inject relevance into the character.



> With comparing the Anime aside, I don't even mind DBZ's pacing, though maybe that's because I watched it as movies back in the day which included 5 episodes on average, so that's not the reason at all why I feel it ages terribly, it's the story



The story was a straightforward action/comedy series, which worked to its strength. It did not try a pretentious grab at pseudo-philosophical diatribe, and proceeded to fall flat on its face in attempts to express them.



> DBZ is basically DB being forced beyond it's natural conclusion and while I think the War-Arc was like that for Naruto-Shippuden, at least it was only one Arc



One arc that lasted about two years...


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

> The story was a straightforward action/comedy series, which worked to its strength. It did not try a pretentious grab at pseudo-philosophical diatribe, and proceeded to fall flat on its face in attempts to express them.



The exact reason that Toriyama will always be hailed among intelligent people as a better writer than Kishimoto.


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## Zyrax (Nov 23, 2014)

The thing about About Dragon Ball though is the impact it made regardless of its Quality.
For example if you watch The original Dracula horror movie(That was made in early 20th century" you would find it bland and not scary at the very least compared to Horror movies that were made later on(Halloween, Friday the 13th) and yet it still made an impact .
Besides a simple story(DB) is still leaps better than a story that tries to be complex yet fails (Nardo)


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Turrin, the DBZ anime had a story after Frieza, but it was more an episodic one without direction. That happens a lot. Toriko feels the same way for a long ways through the manga. In effect, it can be better because expectations aren't built up for the outcome from a very early point. Leaving out Luffy's desire to become Pirate King (which is easy to do since that's such a long ways off), even One Piece is episodic in its arcs many times.
> 
> That's actually where Naruto fell through, I think. I liked it when things were more episodic during part one. It was just Naruto growing up as a typical shinobi with a few special things that set him apart. That was it. Shippuden managed to effectively put him on a pedestal and make the entire story revolve around shit that wasn't even hyped or even barely, if at all, mentioned until halfway through Shippuden.



Dragon-ball itself was not episodic, it had different antagonists, but the characters goals and the overarching story was clear. In DBZ they managed to extend this a bit in the form of using Goku's and Piccolo's origins as a spring board to continue the story, despite many of the plots already being resolved by the end of Dragon-Ball. The choice of doing so was a poor one to start with, such as if the story of Naruto was extended by exploring the origins of Kaguya (which I think Kishi actually toyed around with the notion of doing for awhile but decided against it), but once we get beyond that, there is no longer any point to the actual story as all the plots have been resolved. From the Android Saga on it's just hey here's another poorly explained bad guy/gal out of nowhere Fight! And literally that's it. That's not episodic, that just lacking a story direction entirely and just showing battles. It would be like if Naruto not only continued to explore the origins of Kaguya, but than after all of that was resolved, Naruto was Hokage, Sasuke was back in the village, the world was at peace, etc... Zabuza's twin brother showed up and he was stronger than Kaguya for no reason - Fight!


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

So Toriyama milked his franchise. At least he didn't do it pretentiously.


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## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

Most people who wank DBZ here probably haven't even read the manga 

Imagine reading the Buu Saga on a weekly basis and then complain to me about Naruto


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

How can one be so oblivious? Everything after Pain felt like artificial extensions of the plot. The Sasuke matter was not only stretched out, it was to the point where Sasuke did and still does seem like more of a main and central character than Naruto.

If DBZ were anything like Naruto, we'd be seeing Vegeta more than half the time, he'd get in all the fights and everyone would be all about what the fuck Vegeta is doing.



			
				spiritmight said:
			
		

> Most people who wank DBZ here probably haven't even read the manga
> 
> Imagine reading the Buu Saga on a weekly basis and then complain to me about Naruto



Hey look, a person that can't keep up. The war arc was considerably longer than the Buu Saga. The Frieza Saga was actually the longest in the series.


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

IIRC, Buu saga was far shorter in the manga.

And as a survivor (so far) of One Piece's Dressrosa arc, I am sickeningly offended that you think reading a long arc would make me see Naruto in some kind of better light or some shit.


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## Jagger (Nov 23, 2014)

DB/DBZ never tried to be anything more than a gag manga that resolved around power-levels and people kicking each other.

Naruto, on the other hand, tried to create a "deep" story that includes the themes of redemption, peace, friendship, etc. and Kishimoto failed miserably to do any of that correctly. Not to mention the background characters were background characters originally in DB, unlike in Naruto, where several of them got heavily neglected because of Kishimoto's horrendous writing and it's hard to defend it, to be blatantly honest.

I'm not saying DB is the top-shounen or that it is the greatest manga out there, but it was fairly more entertaining in some parts than DBZ, tbh. Toriyama is okay, but at leasy his own story never included profundity, which is something that diverges from Kishimoto.

Also, One Piece is, for me at least, much more than just DBZ with pirates.


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## Jagger (Nov 23, 2014)

Also, Toriyama never milked the franchise.

The anime producers did, which caused a several downgrade in animation and cheap fighting entertaining.


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## Tom Servo (Nov 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> *While Naruto has surpassed DBZ by a VAST VAST VAST margin*, that is an EXTREMELY low bar. Dragon-Ball on the other hand is a bit more debatable


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## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Hey look, a person that can't keep up. The war arc was considerably longer than the Buu Saga. The Frieza Saga was actually the longest in the series.




Because I was talking about arc lengths


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

Kishimoto: I'm a deep guy, look at all of these morals I write about a girl loving a guy who couldn't care less if she died. Oh, and did I mention that the main character doesn't want to do his job of protecting the world from the bad guy if it means killing him because they have a "bond?" After all, we all make bonds with people we absolutely hate, right? I'll never do like Toriyama and just make it about leveling up and fighting! By the way, here's the war arc! 

Toriyama: Yo dawg, we heard you like powering up...


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## Imagine (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Elicit94 (Nov 23, 2014)

Dragon Ball was supposed to end at the end of the Cell arc. The Buu arc sucks ass. 

[youtube]XebyKpo6A9s[/youtube]

Still better than Naruto, though.


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## Bruce Wayne (Nov 23, 2014)

Naruto surpassed DragonBall in Part 1. This isn't even a competition.


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Dragon Ball starting with aliens is a mark against it? What a ridiculous argument.


For the same reason that people bitch about Kaguya's origins, Goku and Piccolo turning out to be aliens was ungodly stupid.



> Also Shippuden is inundated with fillers that DBZ can't even compare to.


DBZ had some god aweful fillers as well. In both case you don't have to watch them though, as it's obvious when they are going into fillers.



> Naruto Shippuden already went that route after Pain, and worse yet, tried to play at pseudo-philosophical musings at that. Someone only whose previous story would have to be "See Spot Run" would confuse for actual depth.


I'm not defending Kishi's choice to expand the story beyond that Pain-Arc (and perhaps Kages-Arcs) where I feel the natural conclusion to the story should have been; though maybe put the Kages-Arc before the Pain-Arc or before Pain arrives in Konoha some how. But again the War-Arc was one Arc, DBZ is tons of arcs. So again DBZ is like if the War-Arc was just Arc 1 of 8 more Arcs that take place after the Pain-Arc.



> No it didn't. Shippuden quickly became which jutsu made the biggest explosion. It became even moreso about a clash of chakra-zords more than anything.


It became that at the end of the War-Arc; basically from the start of the Obito arc onwards (though I still think it had more technique usage than DBZ). DBZ started out that way and became worse as it progressed that way for like 8-9 Arcs. 



> Not really, because Naruto and Sasuke were the true difference makers at the end of the day. Kakashi got his temporary power-up, and Sakura even in spite of it was embarrassed time and again.
> 
> Even little things like Mr. Satan complying with #16's wish, bringing out the good in Buu, or saving Vegeta was way more of a difference maker than the things Kishimoto did with those that were not descendants of the Sage.


If your counting Mr.Satan stuff, than I will count the times that the Alliance, Sakura, Minato, etc... saved Naruto's or Sasuke's lives multiple times and so on. But let's be honest here by about mid-way through the Cell-Saga all the characters from Part 1, were basically irrelevant except Goku for the rest of the manga. Maybe in Naruto basically everyone from Part1 except Sasuke and Naruto were irrelevant, but that was the tail end of thee final arc of the story, and at least Naruto's rival maintained his relevancy, while no one from Dragonball but Goku did well before even the final-arc's ending. 



> The lack of self-awareness you'd have to possess to post this is incredible.


Perhaps on your part. I mean what did the rookies do in the war, fight Juublings, what did the Earth Forces from Dragon-Ball do in the second arc, fight Saibamen. It seems pretty equal shafting to me, and Dragonball Z only gets progressively worse from there.



> Naruto Shippuden following DBZ would be like if it didn't make it seem like Sasuke was the main character 75% of the time.


I don't agree with this. Sasuke and Naruto were treated roughly equally, with Naruto edging it. Kishi basically made a decision to make those two both mutually the MCs of the story; it's not one I necessarily agree with, but it's still better than every character in Dragon-Ball, but Goku being irrelevant for most of the series.



> Naruto Shippuden following DBZ would be cutting aside the transparent attempts at depth, and being true to what it was: an action manga.


I give points for trying even if the attempt was poorly executed verses not trying at all.



> Naruto Shippuden following DBZ would mean the main character actually seeming like one that actually was an underdog and rose to the top because he is a hard-worker, and not some artificially slapped on prophecies in order to re-inject relevance into the character.


Yeah it's not like Goku turned out to be from super races, that just powers up tremendously every time they fight,  and be the mythical Super Saiyan or anything. Please, DBZ is much worse about this than Naruto.



> he story was a straightforward action/comedy series, which worked to its strength. It did not try a pretentious grab at pseudo-philosophical diatribe, and proceeded to fall flat on its face in attempts to express them.


Again trying to have depth and not succeeding in most instances is better to me than not trying at all.



> One arc that lasted about two years..


and how long did the whole of DBZ last?


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## Stunna (Nov 23, 2014)

**


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## Jagger (Nov 23, 2014)

Mandatory laugh pic.


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## Punished Pathos (Nov 23, 2014)

Naruto will never top DBZ or DB


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## Mashiba Ryō (Nov 23, 2014)

I love that this isn't even the common consensus on arguably the most popular Naruto forum.

DBZ >>>>>>>> Naruto. Deal with it OP.


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## Aazadan (Nov 23, 2014)

Naruto is way better than DB or DBZ.  Naruto has it's problems, because Kishi like all authors has weaknesses but Naruto tackled issues that not only aren't normally addressed in shonen but it was paced really well.  That's Kishi's biggest strength actually, he was very good at pacing balancing out progressing the story and reveals with extending the manga.

Naruto isn't the best shonen series ever, FMA probably has that honor but the manga itself was fairly ambitious and mostly delivered on what it set out to try and do.  Just like the genre was improved because of the groundwork that DB laid down, Naruto rose the bar for everything that comes after by showing the authors that they actually can address concepts like romance (not that Kishi did well here, but how many ever even included it before?), shades of gray, and characters that have varying amounts of relevance rather than everyone either being a main or background character.


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## Jagger (Nov 23, 2014)

>Kishimoto good at pacing.

Lolwut.


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## Stunna (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Monna (Nov 23, 2014)

There was a point when Naruto had the potential to be better, but its ending was just so awful.


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## Titanosaurus (Nov 23, 2014)

Kishimoto's biggest strength was character designs, dramatic facial expressions, and intimidating enemy introductions.  Pain is the coolest and most intimidating looking manga villain imo with his posse of punk rock gangster demon people that kill without hesitation, that was some hardcore manga shit, One Piece has gay ass character designs, Bleach has homo ass character designs, Dragon Ball Z stopped trying to be good after Frieza and completely through out any hint of consistency and just went into the realm of absurdity, but I gotta say the suspension of disbelief is still not as bad as One Piece.  Now lets keep in mind we're being hyper critical of childrens comics, Naruto clearly has captured our critical interest the most, I think that's something special.  Naruto has its issues but as far as long running Shonen shit goes, it takes the cake, obviously.


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## Stunna (Nov 23, 2014)

> Kishimoto's biggest strength was character designs


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## Titanosaurus (Nov 23, 2014)

Stunna said:


>



one of his biggest strengths, dude they were amazing


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## Aazadan (Nov 23, 2014)

Jagger said:


> >Kishimoto good at pacing.
> 
> Lolwut.



How wasn't he?  At any given time he usually kept 1 long term reveal coming, 1 medium term reveal, and a couple of short term goals.  Have you ever looked at the pacing of mangas like One Piece or Bleach which can take 5 years to get back to something minor?  Kishi generally kept things to periods of 2 years, 1 year, or 3 months which gives a good mix of progressing the story while maintaining some larger mysteries.


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## Titanosaurus (Nov 23, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> How wasn't he?  At any given time he usually kept 1 long term reveal coming, 1 medium term reveal, and a couple of short term goals.  Have you ever looked at the pacing of mangas like One Piece or Bleach which can take 5 years to get back to something minor?  Kishi generally kept things to periods of 2 years, 1 year, or 3 months which gives a good mix of progressing the story while maintaining some larger mysteries.



forreal, but the pacing got way too fast at the very end, the anime on the other hand....


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## ch1p (Nov 23, 2014)

Jagger said:


> >Kishimoto good at pacing.
> 
> Lolwut.


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

Turrin said:


> For the same reason that people bitch about Kaguya's origins, Goku and Piccolo turning out to be aliens was ungodly stupid.



Goku and Piccolo being aliens was a reasonable given. Kaguya in contrast was a villain, and worse yet the last of the manga that had not been built up for even a year before her introduction. On top of that, left a completely underwhelming presence it was a wonder why Kishimoto even bothered. 

You're desperately reaching here. 



> DBZ had some god aweful fillers as well. In both case you don't have to watch them though, as it's obvious when they are going into fillers.



DBZ had fillers, some bad ones, but they don't compare to Naruto's in awfulness or quantity.



> I'm not defending Kishi's choice to expand the story beyond that Pain-Arc (and perhaps Kages-Arcs) where I feel the natural conclusion to the story should have been; though maybe put the Kages-Arc before the Pain-Arc or before Pain arrives in Konoha some how. But again the War-Arc was one Arc, DBZ is tons of arcs. So again DBZ is like if the War-Arc was just Arc 1 of 8 more Arcs that take place after the Pain-Arc.



You've been backtracking. You stated yourself that the Frieza Saga would be a suitable conclusion to the series, now you are going back and saying the entirety of the second half was an overextension. Only tells me you can't keep a consistent point on this. 

If going by that, there are only two arcs after the Frieza Saga, and neither were as long as the Frieza Saga. Even moreso, as long as the War arc in Naruto was. 



> It became that at the end of the War-Arc; basically from the start of the Obito arc onwards (though I still think it had more technique usage than DBZ). DBZ started out that way and became worse as it progressed that way for like 8-9 Arcs.



DBZ expanded on the elements it was built upon, Naruto did not, it tried to emulate DBZ with zords.



> If your counting Mr.Satan stuff, than I will count the times that the Alliance, Sakura, Minato, etc... saved Naruto's or Sasuke's lives multiple times and so on. But let's be honest here by about mid-way through the Cell-Saga all the characters from Part 1, were basically irrelevant except Goku for the rest of the manga. Maybe in Naruto basically everyone from Part1 except Sasuke and Naruto were irrelevant, but that was the tail end of thee final arc of the story, and at least Naruto's rival maintained his relevancy, while no one from Dragonball but Goku did well before even the final-arc's ending.



Well you know Toriyama never tried to unduly hype those side characters contrast to Kishimoto. Making it seem like they mattered through empty rhetoric. Their weakness compared to Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta most notably was well-noted, and no illusion was given to the contrary. 

Ah, well that's where you're full of crap. Vegeta was with Goku in the last battle of the series, and he was the one who had to buy time for him to both power-up and gather energy for the final attack. On top of that, it was not Goku or Vegeta that were the strongest at the end either, it was Gohan. Vegeta and Goku simply were the most experienced. 



> Perhaps on your part. I mean what did the rookies do in the war, fight Juublings, what did the Earth Forces from Dragon-Ball do in the second arc, fight Saibamen. It seems pretty equal shafting to me, and Dragonball Z only gets progressively worse from there.



No it really isn't. Because there were only a few Saibamen for each fighter, and Krillin killed the rest of them. Yeah, Krillin. It would be like if Lee destroyed the entire Zetsu army on his own, which if I need to remind you never occurred. What's more is, that is wasn't just the work of Goku that defeated Vegeta; if you remember, Gohan and Krillin picked up that job. It was Krillin's death that was the catalyst for Goku finding the power to defeat Frieza, Gohan was the one who defeated cell, and it was everyone's energy that defeated Buu. 



> I don't agree with this. Sasuke and Naruto were treated roughly equally, with Naruto edging it. Kishi basically made a decision to make those two both mutually the MCs of the story; it's not one I necessarily agree with, but it's still better than every character in Dragon-Ball, but Goku being irrelevant for most of the series.



No, they really were not. Sasuke was the central character of the story, even to the point that Naruto's own goals were centered around Sasuke; the antagonists were mainly related to Sasuke, and primarily interested in Sasuke. 

This only tells me you didn't really read or pay attention to Dragon Ball, for reasons I listed above. 



> I give points for trying even if the attempt was poorly executed verses not trying at all.



Which means you are reaching for points to put Naruto above Dragon Ball. Failing is what compromises the story as whole and the integrity of those themes, which do not deserve credit. 



> Yeah it's not like Goku turned out to be from super races, that just powers up tremendously every time they fight,  and be the mythical Super Saiyan or anything. Please, DBZ is much worse about this than Naruto.



Goku was the lowest class of Saiyan, never expected to be anything but. He was not the mythical SSJ, he was the first one that had appeared in 3 millenia, there is no destiny attached to that. It was his willpower and tenacity that got him to where he was contrast to Vegeta's nobility. 

A most pertinent saying between Vegeta and Goku when they first met is Vegeta deriding Goku that their gap is to paraphrase, "something that no amount of hard work could ever achieve". Goku obviously proving him wrong on that.



> Again trying to have depth and not succeeding in most instances is better to me than not trying at all.



Which I see as a desperate bid at reaching. 

It's as ridiculous as giving points to a chef for trying to cook prime rib to ashes, and then considering him better than a chef that made excellent hamburger. The latter dish is simpler, but it was done well. 



> and how long did the whole of DBZ last?



It doesn't matter, because the point you're trying to get at is idiotic here. Like I said it's not even consistent with the initial concession you had made.


----------



## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> Naruto is way better than DB or DBZ.  Naruto has it's problems, because Kishi like all authors has weaknesses but *Naruto tackled issues that not only aren't normally addressed in shonen* but it was paced really well.



Oh my god. My sides just got low-diffed.   

All of those broken Aesops being taught were a point in Naruto's favor?


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Nov 23, 2014)

DBZ aged poorly tho

it's still the goat but the later arcs are just horrible as Naruto tbh


----------



## The Juice Man (Nov 23, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> Dragon Ball was supposed to end at the end of the Cell arc.



Originally, DBZ was suppose to end at the end of Frieza saga.

DBZ was that popular, Toriyama was "forced"  to continue it. 

Same thing happened at the end of the Cell arc.



Elicit94 said:


> Still better than Naruto, though.



Goes without saying. 

Vegeta by himself has better character development than Naruto and Sasuke.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm sorry but Goku being alien was really fucking stupid. He was just some magic monkey boy, that was his origin and his explanation for his strength.

If DBZ came out now, do you think all the people who RAGE about every little fucking problem in Naruto or Bleach would let DBZ off the hook?

"Oh it was just revealed Naruto is actually an alien and Tsunade knew it all along but didn't tell him because....................................."

But wait! How was this revealed?

"Well his brother showed up and laid down some exposition. And then he died."

So....you introduce the main character's brother and kill him off right after? What the fuck?

I love Dragonball.
I detest Dragonball Part 2/Z.


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## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

Again, let's see the people who wank DB read the Buu arc on a weekly basis 

7 year old without any real training is Super Saiyan. 7 year old can't even fly 

Majin Buu, legendary demon monster hyped to high hell is fat moron

Vegeta blows himself up to stop him

Wait it didn't work 

Fusion technique 

Goku had an additional transformation that he just didn't use until now 

Goku: lulz I could have probably beaten Buu as a SSJ3 but I wanted to give the kids a chance at it because the entirety of fucking existence isn't at stake here 

Wanted to give Vegeta a "fair fight" 

Mr. Satan befriends Majin Buu

Dog gets shot, Majin Buu becomes evil again

Evil Majin Buu kills humanity

Fusion technique again 

Fusion fails to kill Majin Buu because heroes spend more time performing wacky hijinks instead of fighting for the fate of the universe despite all of humanity and heroes' family being dead 

Wait Gohan is 100x more powerful because he sat Indian Style for a day 

Fusion gets absorbed

Gohan gets his ass beat

Goku comes back to life inexplicably and arbitrarily. Vegeta too

Gohan gets absorbed. Majin Buu wears Turtle School Gi now 

Goku and Vegeta fuse

Instead of killing Buu and using Namekian Dragon Balls to revive everyone, get absorbed so that you can rescue people who could have been revived anyway

Supreme Kai: OMFG LOOK IT'S THE SUPPOSED ORIGINAL FORM OF BUU THAT I TOLD NOBODY ABOUT BUT IT'S THE MOST DANGEROUS LOOK

Earth destroyed, Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, Trunks killed. So going inside of Buu and rescuing them instead of just killing Buu was pointless 

Goku decides to fight Buu by himself despite it being very clear that there's no way anyone can win one on one

Destroy Potaras because of LULZ SAIYAN PRIDE

SPIRIT BOMB which might have saved the Earth if it had been done 200 chapters earlier

The end

GREATEST MANGA OF ALL TIME


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

People don't like to hold DB to the same standards as other shounen. They criticize Kishimoto and Kubo for the exact same shit Toriyama pulled but when Toriyama does it it's okay.

It's an observation I noticed a long time ago and it's annoying.


----------



## Torpedo Titz (Nov 23, 2014)

Yes, but not by Nardough.


----------



## Skywalker (Nov 23, 2014)

Not even close.

GT had a better ending than this shit.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> Kishimoto: I'm a deep guy, look at all of these morals I write about a girl loving a guy who couldn't care less if she died. Oh, and did I mention that the main character doesn't want to do his job of protecting the world from the bad guy if it means killing him because they have a "bond?" After all, we all make bonds with people we absolutely hate, right? I'll never do like Toriyama and just make it about leveling up and fighting! By the way, here's the war arc!
> 
> Toriyama: Yo dawg, we heard you like powering up...



Basically. DB was 30 years ago in Shounen land. 

Standards change...but the big takeaway was that in writing it, Toriyama was never trying to make it anything more than it was really, a monkey kid based on journey to the west who progressively fought stronger and stronger more outlandish bad guys and made a ton of friends. Oh and a majority of the people were named after inanimate objects like foods 

Naruto is trumped up by Kishi about actually trying to tell a story about some weird thing about redemption+friendship+forgiveness+peace...and he doesn't accomplish any of these things by the end at all, it falls completely flat. Its not even a comparison.


----------



## Blizzard-chan (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> Again, let's see the people who wank DB read the Buu arc on a weekly basis
> 
> 7 year old without any real training is Super Saiyan. 7 year old can't even fly
> 
> ...



 



Zaelapolopollo said:


> People don't like to hold DB to the same standards as other shounen. They criticize Kishimoto and Kubo for the exact same shit Toriyama pulled but when Toriyama does it it's okay.
> 
> It's an observation I noticed a long time ago and it's annoying.



I agree with this.


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> Again, let's see the people who wank DB read the Buu arc on a weekly basis
> 
> 7 year old without any real training is Super Saiyan. 7 year old can't even fly
> 
> ...



This is why I rarely use emotes and reaction gifs, it's to the point where every dimwit uses them thinking it makes their posts more clever in doing so.

All you described was a single arc, which even fans can agree wasn't that great compared to prior; still far better than the war arc in Naruto however.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> People don't like to hold DB to the same standards as other shounen. They criticize Kishimoto and Kubo for the exact same shit Toriyama pulled but when Toriyama does it it's okay.
> 
> It's an observation I noticed a long time ago and it's annoying.



A flawed one, really. People hold each author to the standards in respect to the intentions they carried out and what they tried, if at all, to express and how successful that was. Dragon Ball is held to the same standard as other shonen, that being is it an enjoyable story. Most people would say yes it is. 

What you're doing is confusing attempts at complexity as being synonymous with a more enjoyable series when this is hardly the case. It is only when such attempts are successful is it met with praise. No one is going to say Dragon Ball was a particularly deep series, it never tried to be. It played up on its strengths, and that worked to its favor overwhelmingly. 

In contrast, Kishimoto's writing did not. His strengths clearly do not lie in expression of human themes and concepts, but that is what he wanted to make his story about. So people judge him on that standard, which I would say he did not meet. Kubo on the other hand, he's good at characterization, at least way better than Kishi is. He seems to understand people as well. He is an odd case because his weak point are fights, yet sometime into the Arrancar arc, that's basically what it became about. Even by the standards of a power-inflated series, a lot of the abilities he chooses to employ among his cast are ill-defined, and so broad that it becomes that the only way many of them can lose is due to PIS; not only that his pacing is like molasses.


----------



## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> This is why I rarely use emotes and reaction gifs, it's to the point where every dimwit uses them thinking it makes their posts more clever in doing so.
> 
> All you described was a single arc, which even fans can agree wasn't that great compared to prior; still far better than the war arc in Naruto however.



I never said I wasn't describing a single arc. Actually, the beginning of my post had the words "Buu Arc" in them, if you noticed . But I could make the exact same post with the Freeza and Cell sagas 

But keep on with the little attempted digs at my intelligence. Your frustration is showing


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

I judge Toriyama by the same standards I judge every other shounen I read. And, from what I've seen, so does everyone else but you.

Or have people not been complaining for years and years about the Saiyans hogging all the spotlight? About how useless and irrelevant most of the cast in DB are? This oddly echoes the same complaints I see all the time for Naruto and Bleach.

Plus, "complexity" is one thing but DB was clearly intended to be a "serious work" after a fashion. I'd say 22nd Tournament/Budokai or King Piccolo was when Dragonball took off into the very straight story shounen formula and it never looked back. Toriyama ended up trying to tell "serious stories" about character development and redemption and I think most of it failed spectacularly. Vegeta for example? Homocidal lunatic who tried to murder Bulma and everyone else on Earth. And no, it wasn't because of RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN. It was just because he was having a temper tantrum at losing to Goku. But Goku is like "let him go because I don't care about the lives of my (supposed) loved ones, I just want to fight him again." And then later on he'd appear and Bulma would fuck him and he'd continue to be an evil asshole until he sees his son get hurt and suddenly he's a good guy all of a sudden. 

Genocidal lunatic is forgiven because...no real reason at all.  He changes because...sudden asspull. After an entire arc of showing how he didn't give a shit about his son or really much of anything except proving how great he was.

Point is, Dragonball might not be particularly deep or complex but it is trying to tell a straight narrative and so I can point out problems I think exist in that narrative. And apparently many agree with me.


----------



## Stunna (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> -snip-


**


----------



## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> I judge Toriyama by the same standards I judge every other shounen I read. And, from what I've seen, so does everyone else but you.



Everyone else? Is that why there's such a wide consensus in your favor here? 



> Or have people not been complaining for years and years about the Saiyans hogging all the spotlight? About how useless and irrelevant most of the cast in DB are? This oddly echoes the same complaints I see all the time for Naruto and Bleach.



A legitimate criticism, I'm not acting like Dragon Ball is perfect. It just did better what it set out to be, in contrast to Naruto. A lot of the cast fell to the wayside after the Vegeta and Frieza Saga, but...as I told Turrin no illusion was given to their ability or relevance; even moreso, it wasn't met with stacking more and more side characters that would only get little to no development.



> Plus, "complexity" is one thing but DB was clearly intended to be a "serious work" after a fashion. I'd say 22nd Tournament/Budokai or King Piccolo was when Dragonball took off into the very straight story shounen formula and it never looked back.



Dragon Ball *established* the shonen formula.



> Toriyama ended up trying to tell "serious stories" about character development and redemption and I think most of it failed spectacularly. Vegeta for example? Homocidal lunatic who tried to murder Bulma and everyone else on Earth. And no, it wasn't because of RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN. It was just because he was having a temper tantrum at losing to Goku. But Goku is like "let him go because I don't care about the lives of my (supposed) loved ones, I just want to fight him again."



He wasn't trying to tell a story of redemption. He didn't even like Vegeta, two times he intended to kill him off for good. At his first appearance, and after the Frieza Saga, but was encouraged to keep him around; so he found something to do with him. The only reason Bulma/Vegeta was even a thing is because an explanation was needed to be made for Trunks' origins. 

Goku was a guy that liked to fight, and he since the beginning has tried to spare his opponents because he finds killing them to be a waste, save for Cell and Frieza whom he intended to kill and Piccolo Daimao or Buu whom he actually killed. This wasn't just for Vegeta, and what's even dumber about your point, is that everyone thinks Goku was crazy for doing such things. It's not like with Naruto where people just agree with him just because. Everyone knows Goku is a simple-minded guy that likes a good challenge, and they constantly express how crazy they think he is due to that. That's the only reason Piccolo, aside from Kami's sake, and Vegeta were spared. That's why Uub even exists. 

See you're trying to talk on something and you can't even get your facts straight about it.



> And then later on he'd appear and Bulma would fuck him and he'd continue to be an evil asshole until he sees his son get hurt and suddenly he's a good guy all of a sudden.
> 
> Genocidal lunatic is forgiven because...no real reason at all.  He changes because...sudden asspull. After an entire arc of showing how he didn't give a shit about his son or really much of anything except proving how great he was.



Actually he was still bad, he just learned to appreciate his son's efforts. The Cell Saga was particularly humbling for him, since everything in it was his fault to begin with. 

No one trusted Vegeta. What's more is he simply lost his tenacity after Goku died, and Gohan surpassed him. He was still resentful as ever. 



> Point is, Dragonball might not be particularly deep or complex but it is trying to tell a straight narrative and so I can point out problems I think exist in that narrative. And apparently many agree with me.



Dragon Ball never tried to be. It simply focused on the strengths that Toriyama had, and did not try to overstep bounds on tackling concepts that it simply lacked the ability to address. Something Naruto did not heed. Which is why Naruto isn't as good a story. 

I can say the same thing here.


----------



## Palm Siberia (Nov 23, 2014)

Stunna said:


> **



 ....ermm DBZ should not be compared to any Shounen :ignoramus


----------



## Stunna (Nov 23, 2014)

Palm Siberia said:


> **


**


----------



## Ruse (Nov 23, 2014)

Nardo is GT tier


----------



## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Below that even!


----------



## Palm Siberia (Nov 23, 2014)

Naruto did not revive Madara and Obito turning them into a comedy duo...well not yet


----------



## Yami Munesanzun (Nov 23, 2014)

...The only _good_ GT arc was the Super 17 arc.

In my opinion.


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Everyone else? Is that why there's such a wide consensus in your favor here?



This forum is not a good representation of anything, let alone the entire DB fandom.




> He wasn't trying to tell a story of redemption. He didn't even like Vegeta, two times he intended to kill him off for good. At his first appearance, and after the Frieza Saga, but was encouraged to keep him around; so he found something to do with him. The only reason Bulma/Vegeta was even a thing is because an explanation was needed to be made for Trunks' origins.



I'd honestly like to see your sources for any of this. This thread is already full of the long-debunked myth of "Toriyama Intended Endings" but I'd honestly be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt if you could show me your sources or at least tell me where you read them.


I'm inclined to believe you though because AT did write by the seat of his pants a lot. It's probably why DB is such a mess.



> Goku was a guy that liked to fight, and he since the beginning has tried to spare his opponents because he finds killing them to be a waste, save for Cell and Frieza whom he intended to kill and Piccolo Daimao or Buu whom he actually killed. This wasn't just for Vegeta, and what's even dumber about your point, is that everyone thinks Goku was crazy for doing such things. It's not like with Naruto where people just agree with him just because. Everyone knows Goku is a simple-minded guy that likes a good challenge, and they constantly express how crazy they think he is due to that. That's the only reason Piccolo, aside from Kami's sake, and Vegeta were spared. That's why Uub even exists.



When Tambourine killed Krillin, what did (Kid) Goku immediately do? Yes, he went out and tried to avenge him by murdering Tambourine. Vegeta is indirectly responsible for the deaths of 4 of Goku's friends.  Adult Goku's obsession with fighting over everything else was an invention late on. As a kid, he just killed whoever got in his way. 

Probably why Kid Goku was a stronger character.



> Actually he was still bad, he just learned to appreciate his son's efforts. The Cell Saga was particularly humbling for him, since everything in it was his fault to begin with.
> 
> No one trusted Vegeta. What's more is he simply lost his tenacity after Goku died, and Gohan surpassed him. He was still resentful as ever.



...Vegeta makes a whole speech about why he needed Babidi to awaken the evil in him. That he had settled own and learned to love Bulma and Trunks. 



> Dragon Ball never tried to be. It simply focused on the strengths that Toriyama had, and did not try to overstep bounds on tackling concepts that it simply lacked the ability to address. Something Naruto did not heed. Which is why Naruto isn't as good a story.
> 
> I can say the same thing here.



Dragonball lacking themes and messages is not a mark in its favor as you seem to think it is. It just means the only thing to focus on are its horrible storytelling and inconsistencies.

We can get into that if you want but I really see no point. Neithr Naruto nor DBZ are good enough to warrant any sort of debate like this. I said my piece but I had no intention of having a protracted argument over this crap.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Palm Siberia said:


> Naruto did not revive Madara and Obito turning them into a comedy duo...well not yet



You have a point there  But GT had some upsides and downsides i guess....GT had worse downs though


----------



## ch1p (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> I could make the exact same post with the Freeza and Cell sagas



Please do, I enjoyed reading that.


----------



## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

Goku survives explosion of Namek despite last known scene depicts him screaming about his impending death. Makes it to Ginyu landing site, enters Ginyu space pod, and blasts off after he's done with his screaming 

Freeza, most powerful being in universe aside from Super Saiyans according to literally every alien species imaginable, survives destruction of Planet Namek and is en route to Earth with father to enact revenge. Cool.

Z-Fighters shitting bricks because Freeza is most powerful being in universe aside from Super Saiyans. 

Kid with pink hair shows up out of nowhere and tells Freeza he's going to kill him. Freeza and co understandably laugh him out of town

Kid turns into Super Saiyan 

Kid fodderizes Freeza and father

Z-fighters flabbergasted 

Kid says wait for Goku

Goku arrives

Kid tells Goku he's from the future and came in a time machine 
Kid tells Goku that somehow an Earthling scientist has used Earth technology to create god-tier sophisticated cyborgs more powerful than Super Saiyans 

Earthling scientist was a member of the Red Ribbon Army that did not make a single appearance prior but hates Goku and has been studying him with bug robots for decades 

Earth Scientist creates sophisticated almighty normal looking cyborgs and hyper-advanced spacefaring aliens make Freeza look like Bender from Futurama 

Goku conveniently dies of random heart virus as androids are loosed on the world 

Pink haired kid is child of Bulma and omnicidal pirate space conqueror who has killed literally billions of innocents and who intended to eliminate all life on Earth for cash. Omnicidal space alien pirate is only hanging on Earth for free lodgings and pussy  

Kid gives Goku heart medicine and goes back to the future in fucking time machine 

Z-Fighters train

Three years later androids attack

Androids are old man and fat Chaozu 

Goku fodderizes until heart virus strikes. Trunks returns


Vegeta steps in and pwns androids as Super Saiyan. Still gives absolutely no shits about child and mother. 
Nearly lets child and mother be obliterated. Leaves them to be saved by future version of child who is absolutely appalled at how complete scum his father is 

Wait these weren't the androids I was talking about 

The androids I was talking about are actually two teenagers . Oh and there's another one for some reason He was created with earrings and a mohawk 



Teenage cyborgs created on Earth are stronger than Super Saiyans . Pwn Z-fighters effortlessly

Piccolo is butthurt and decides to fuse with Kami. Fusion with Kami somehow bumps  below-Freeza Piccolo to beyond Super Saiyan level 

Bulma finds a second time machine . Insect egg inexplicably found inside



Mr. Popo tells Z-fighters about room where a year can be spent in a day 

Apparently Goku used the room as a kid but couldn't handle it. I totally remember that episode 

Meanwhile, monster is eating people somewhere for some reason

Piccolo confronts the monster. Monster is somehow ANOTHER Dr. Gero creation. And he came from the future too 


Somehow has genetic material of all Z-fighters. Can do all moves because genetic material is what allows us to use martial arts moves and special attacks 


Vegeta and Trunks go into magic room first. Monster disappears and continually grows stronger.

Vegeta and Trunks come out of room. Monster absorbs teenage bishie android #1 yet somehow becomes uglier 

Monster is curbstomping until Vegeta arrives. Vegeta fodderizes but does not kill monster because LULZ SAIYAN PRIDE and he wants a challenge. Vegeta, at the highest known point of manga stupidity, allows monster to achieve perfect form 

Vegeta is fodderized. Krillin informs Trunks to use his "hidden power". Trunks buffs up but is schooled by monster because all of a sudden more muscles = less speed despite this not having ever been the case for any character ever 

Invincible android monster holds martial arts tournament  

Gohan turns SSJ2 which is actually the highlight of the entire manga 

Goku dies. Chooses to stay dead because afterlife is full of lulz, abandoning pregnant wife and 11-year-old son to farm radishes in poverty 


GREATEST MANGA EVER


----------



## ch1p (Nov 23, 2014)

Moar, moar!

* bookmarks to rep after spreading *


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> snip



It's so beautiful.... 

I always hated Freeza because his power level made no goddam sense. So I'm gonna add to your list.

Power progression in Saiyan/Namek Saga is normal. Everyone gains at most a few thousand, maybe around ten thousand. Vegeta's first Zenkai, from the HORRIFIC thrashing he got on Earth, got him from 18,000 to 24,000. He raises a few more thousand with subsequent Zenkais. Oh wait, he's getting over 100K Zenkais now....

But wait, there's more! Final Zenkai boosts him from less than 1 million to around 2,000,000.

Goku, who trained all the way to Namek under the most extreme conditions, went from around 8,000 to 90,000. Then his Zenkai raises him from 90K to 3,000,000.

Piccolo, who at most maybe got to Goku's 8000, fused with Nail and went to over 1,000,000.

Gohan's Rage Boost took him from less than 100K to over 1,000,000. 

This is all because of fucking Freeza. All these ABSOLUTELY FUCKING INSANE jumps, when every other jump has been logical up to this point, is because of him.

Captain Ginyu, strongest subordinate in the Freeza Empire, is 120,000.

Freeza's max PL? 120,000,000.

He is literally 1,000 times stronger than his best man.

Which mandates that every hero receive absolutely ludicrous jumps in power to even make him blink.

I fucking hated it so much.

Not to mention his fucking USELESS transformations. What was even the point of his Third Form? His Second Form was already stronger than Piccolo, the strongest fighter there.


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Nov 23, 2014)

@spiritmight

You should start a series depicting Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece like that.


----------



## Arcana (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> -snip-



Yet it's still better than nardo


----------



## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Is any of that supposed to show how Naruto is better than DB?  

DB being the standard every typical shounen looks to is going to have a lot of shounen conventions in it that other people have followed. You don't expect a series 30 years later to struggle with the same basic concepts of writing, even while attempting(that being the keyword) to tell a grander story.


----------



## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

People coming at me about whether or not Naruto is better than DBZ 

I never made an argument for against such a claim, but go ahead. Attempt to engage me in a debate about a topic of which I care nothing about 




Bruce Wayne said:


> @spiritmight
> 
> You should start a series depicting Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece like that.




I'll do one for Dressrosa when the arc ends in 2016


----------



## Palm Siberia (Nov 23, 2014)

Yeah I think the Frieza transformations were not needed hell the third one was just for an Alien shout-out.


----------



## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

If you don't care about the debate, why are you acting like that in a thread about that debate


----------



## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)

Inuhanyou said:


> If you don't care about the debate, why are you acting like that in a thread about that debate




I'm creating synopses of DBZ's arcs with smileys for comedic effect and ya'll wanna come at me with your jimmies all rustled. 

It's just jokes, breh 


Thanks for the reps, all who did. I'm too lazy to put that on individual profiles.


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## Bruce Wayne (Nov 23, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> I'll do one for Dressrosa when the arc ends in 2016



Wait, that shit still ongoing? 

Anything after the time-skip will do.


----------



## Palm Siberia (Nov 23, 2014)

Are they still in Vacation Namek


----------



## Soca (Nov 23, 2014)

Would've been funnier if the thread was about one piece surpassing dbz, except that would've been true. Oh well.


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> This forum is not a good representation of anything, let alone the entire DB fandom.



If we are going on appeals to popularity, then the DB fandom would be significantly larger than the Naruto one.



> I'd honestly like to see your sources for any of this. This thread is already full of the long-debunked myth of "Toriyama Intended Endings" but I'd honestly be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt if you could show me your sources or at least tell me where you read them.
> 
> 
> I'm inclined to believe you though because AT did write by the seat of his pants a lot. It's probably why DB is such a mess.



Q: I've heard that many plot developments in Dragon Ball were influenced by letters from readers, is this true, and if so, can you give us a concrete example?
A: Parts of it were, yes, for example, take Vegeta when he first appeared as a bad guy, but because he became very popular, he stayed in the series from that point on.

Link removed

Arguing like Naruto didn't. Which is even worse because if you're trying to make a story about themes and morality there are very clear pitfalls to avoid which Kishi couldn't even do.



> When Tambourine killed Krillin, what did (Kid) Goku immediately do? Yes, he went out and tried to avenge him by murdering Tambourine. Vegeta is indirectly responsible for the deaths of 4 of Goku's friends.  Adult Goku's obsession with fighting was something over everything else was an invention late on. As a kid, he just killed whoever got in his way.Probably why Kid Goku was a stronger character.



No he didn't. Pilaf consistently got in his way and he let him go. He was even willing to accept Tao's surrender until he was deceived. Piccolo Daimao and his 'children' save for Piccolo himself are the only ones Goku has ever truly killed. Goku always had an obsession with fighting, right from the very start. 

Like I said you're trying to argue with me on points where you can't eve get your facts straight. 



> ...Vegeta makes a whole speech about why he needed Babidi to awaken the evil in him. That he had settled own and learned to love Bulma and Trunks.



Which he bemoaned, as he felt he was getting soft compared to Goku. 



> Dragonball lacking themes and messages is not a mark in its favor as you seem to think it is. It just means the only thing to focus on are its horrible storytelling and inconsistencies.



That only tells me you aren't comprehending my point. Dragon Ball lacking themes and messages is not a mark for or against it. Toriyama was not aiming for such a story. The story capitalized on its strengths as an action/comedy series.

Naruto on the other hand attempting to have a story of themes and messages and falling flat on its face in the attempt is a mark against it however, on top of its own inadequate storytelling and inconsistencies. As a matter of fact it is the attempt to express themes and messages that adds on a new set of inconsistencies and storytelling issues to Naruto. 



> We can get into that if you want but I really see no point. Neithr Naruto nor DBZ ar egood enough to warrant any sort of debate like this.



Well why even pursue that avenue then? You are aware on that point Dragon Ball significantly outsells it to this day?


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## Shanks (Nov 23, 2014)

Arrrh shit, OP already smoking the big gun. Came to the party too late.


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## Nathan Copeland (Nov 23, 2014)

One Piece has definitely surpassed DBZ tho so in the end it might truly be the goat


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## Jυstin (Nov 23, 2014)

It _used _to be better than DBZ.

Then it tried to emulate it and failed miserably.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

One piece always tried to emulate DB 

Oda never pays attention to little things, its about adventure and friends and beating the shit out of bad guys  that's about it.

Finding one piece isn't even a real part of the journey


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

> Q: I've heard that many plot developments in Dragon Ball were influenced by letters from readers, is this true, and if so, can you give us a concrete example?
> A: Parts of it were, yes, for example, take Vegeta when he first appeared as a bad guy, but because he became very popular, he stayed in the series from that point on.
> 
> Link removed
> ...



Thank you for that source.



> No he didn't. Pilaf consistently got in his way and he let him go. He was even willing to accept Tao's surrender until he was deceived. Piccolo Daimao and his 'children' save for Piccolo himself are the only ones Goku has ever truly killed. Goku always had an obsession with fighting, right from the very start.



I'm pretty damned sure he killed a ton of Red Ribbon soldiers at the base, culminating in his killing of Adjutant/Commander Black. 

Goku likes fighting, there is no question of that, but he prioritized the well-being of his friends over that. Because he was a good person, hence why he survived the Devilmite Beam. 



> Well why even pursue that avenue then? You are aware on that point Dragon Ball significantly outsells it to this day?



And Naruto out-sells a ton of manga I'm sure you would consider better than it.

Like I said, I hold Naruto and DB to the same standards and so do most other people I talk to. You don't and that's fine, no one can tell you how to judge your manga/anime.  I just feel DB gets far too much leniency when it is full of issues that would make people ragequit this forum if it was actually coming out chapter by chapter today.


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Goku and Piccolo being aliens was a reasonable given.
> .


Goku and Piccolo being aliens was reasonable why? 



> Kaguya in contrast was a villain, and worse yet the last of the manga that had not been built up for even a year before her introduction. On top of that, left a completely underwhelming presence it was a wonder why Kishimoto even bothered.
> 
> You're desperately reaching here.


What does being a villain have to do with it? Goku and Piccolo being aliens wasn't built up ether. Whether she was underwhelming or not is a matter of opinion, I don't find dimension alteration underwhelming at all power wise.



> DBZ had fillers, some bad ones, but they don't compare to Naruto's in awfulness or quantity.


And I disagree, I find Naruto fillers at least good for a laugh, DBZ fillers were just painful. And if you really want to get into fillers we could talk GT, which was the ultimate DBZ filler.



> You've been backtracking. You stated yourself that the Frieza Saga would be a suitable conclusion to the series, now you are going back and saying the entirety of the second half was an overextension. Only tells me you can't keep a consistent point on this.


I challenge you to find where I said Frieza Arc would be a suitable conclusion? Otherwise please stop attacking a straw-man. I said it ending at Frieza Arc wouldn't have been as bad as the following arcs, which in reality is not saying much because the other arcs are some of the worst story telling i've ever seen. Where it should have ended is the Final-Arc of Dragon-Ball. 



> DBZ expanded on the elements it was built upon, Naruto did not, it tried to emulate DBZ with zords.


Not at all. Dragon-Ball was about utilizing actual techniques, DBZ is about just whose Ki is bigger. If were comparing all of Shippuden to DBZ, than only towards the end of the War-Arc did Shippuden start to completely abandon techniques. And if were comparing all of Shippuden to DBZ, the fact that 85%-90% of Shippuden still utilized techniques, should make it overall a-lot better than DBZ in this regard.



> Well you know Toriyama never tried to unduly hype those side characters contrast to Kishimoto. Making it seem like they mattered through empty rhetoric. Their weakness compared to Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta most notably was well-noted, and no illusion was given to the contrary.


Did you not watch/read Dragonball, because yes he did. He hyped Yamacha, Tien, Krillin, Roshi, Piccolo, etc... extensively in Dragonball, probably more so than Kishi actually hyped the Rookies. 



> Vegeta was with Goku in the last battle of the series, and he was the one who had to buy time for him to both power-up and gather energy for the final attack. On top of that, it was not Goku or Vegeta that were the strongest at the end either, it was Gohan. Vegeta and Goku simply were the most experienced.


Vegeta and Gohan were not Part I characters. They were new characters introduced because the power scaling was so atrocious that all the Part I characters had become nigh irrelevant compared to the Saiyins by the first arc of DBZ, except Piccolo who barely hung on until he too was completely irrelevant.



> No it really isn't. Because there were only a few Saibamen for each fighter, and Krillin killed the rest of them.


Actually your right it's less impressive because there were vastly less Saibamen than Juublings.



> Yeah, Krillin. It would be like if Lee destroyed the entire Zetsu army on his own, which if I need to remind you never occurred.


Kiba killed more Juublings than Krillin Killed Saibemen. And that was Kiba. Even if you don't like the Juublings comparison at least we saw some supporting characters taking on Edo-Tensei.



> What's more is, that is wasn't just the work of Goku that defeated Vegeta; if you remember, Gohan and Krillin picked up that job


Wonderful, and if we count this, than I'm counting Sakura and Kakashi's contribution against Kaguya. So once again power-scaling stupidity is about equal as of the Saiyan arc.



> It was Krillin's death that was the catalyst for Goku finding the power to defeat Frieza


Characters dying now counts in a discussion about strength and power-scaling, that's really reaching.



> Gohan was the one who defeated cell,


Gohan wasn't a Part 1 character.



> and it was everyone's energy that defeated Buu.


That's like crediting the animals and trees for Naruto stoping Indra's arrow as he took in all the natural energy in the world. Again reaching.



> No, they really were not. Sasuke was the central character of the story, even to the point that Naruto's own goals were centered around Sasuke; the antagonists were mainly related to Sasuke, and primarily interested in Sasuke.


Sasuke and Naruto's goals were centered around each other at different parts in the story; it went both ways. The antagonists were interested in Naruto for his Bijuu just as much as Sasuke if not more so. And if we look at the main antagonists in the each arc they are related to both Naruto and Sasuke. Obito was related to Sasuke due to the events of the massacre, but was related to Naruto due to the events of the Kyuubi attack. Madara was related to Sasuke as the indra parallel as much as he was related to Naruto due to him being the Ashura parallel. Kaguya wanted their power equally. Sasuke and Naruto faced each other. Before that Danzo was exclusively Sasuke, but Pain was exclusively Naruto. 



> This only tells me you didn't really read or pay attention to Dragon Ball, for reasons I listed above.


Huh... I fully admit Goku was more the most relevant character of the original cast, while Naruto shared his relevance with Sasuke. I however personally rather Naruto share his relevance with his rival versus what happened in Z where Goku's rival (piccolo) becomes obsolete well before the end of the story.



> Which means you are reaching for points to put Naruto above Dragon Ball. Failing is what compromises the story as whole and the integrity of those themes, which do not deserve credit.


Yes and DBZ fails to have any depth whatsoever, so nether are getting many points, but at least Shipuuden had some moments where the depth wasn't absolutely terrible, while DBZ had none. 



> Goku was the lowest class of Saiyan, never expected to be anything but. He was not the mythical SSJ, he was the first one that had appeared in 3 millenia, there is no destiny attached to that. It was his willpower and tenacity that got him to where he was contrast to Vegeta's nobility.
> 
> A most pertinent saying between Vegeta and Goku when they first met is Vegeta deriding Goku that their gap is to paraphrase, "something that no amount of hard work could ever achieve". Goku obviously proving him wrong on that.


Goku wasn't the greatest Genius Saiyan, but he was also a frickin Saiyan the most over powered race in the DBZ universe If were still buying into the under-dog theme despite this, than I have no problem buying into Naruto's under-dog theme despite all the things that made him special.



> It's as ridiculous as giving points to a chef for trying to cook prime rib to ashes, and then considering him better than a chef that made excellent hamburger. The latter dish is simpler, but it was done well.


The problem with this example is that Toriyama didn't make anything. Rather the apt example would be that two chefs are in a cooking contest and expected to produce 5 Star cuisine. One chef shows up with a 1-Star dish, while the other Chef shows up with nothing. Clearly both of them sucked, but at least the first chef produced something.



> It doesn't matter, because the point you're trying to get at is idiotic here. Like I said it's not even consistent with the initial concession you had made.


I said DBZ's power-scaling is more nonsensical, so yes the amount of times the characters power-scaled matters. Again DBZ is like if there was tons and tons of power ups for Sasuke and Naruto beyond their end-game power ups.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

If we're gonna talk about the best shounen, neither Naruto nor DBZ are in the running.

I would recommend Yu Yu Hakusho or Rurouni Kenshin however. YYH is basically DBZ done right.


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## ensoriki (Nov 23, 2014)

U w0t.
Dragon ball was great and DBZ was good still
Goku & Piccolo aliens? Cool lets explore that.Whole species brought to near extinction? Okay this Freiza bitch.
Kill him, lived up to his potential.
Goku goes out cus of aids Vegeta meets his potential as SSJ.
Time to pass the torch on. Gohan wipes out Cell, saga could've been handled better but it's alright. Son family is the greatest shit since slice pie.... thanks for the memories Goku.

Then buu saga comes in...fairly weak...BUT

Still better then Naruto.


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## Elicit94 (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> If we're gonna talk about the best shounen, neither Naruto nor DBZ are in the running.
> 
> I would recommend Yu Yu Hakusho or Rurouni Kenshin however. YYH is basically DBZ done right.


[YOUTUBE]YiGA4tJCnI4[/YOUTUBE]


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## Prince Vegeta (Nov 23, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/results?q=world+of+dragonballz+&sm=3&app=desktop[/YOUTUBE]

This  video reminds me why DBZ  will always stay as my fav anime.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> If we're gonna talk about the best shounen, neither Naruto nor DBZ are in the running.
> 
> I would recommend Yu Yu Hakusho or Rurouni Kenshin however. YYH is basically DBZ done right.



I don't think any person in here would seriously say DB was the best shounen ever by a wide margin(that place is taken obviously by Chrno Crusade). Whether it holds up at all or even still better than Naruto turned out is the discussion.

I think its somewhat of a shame that a majority of people who were fans of DB at any given point would probably only know the anime, and haven't read the manga.

Things like the namek memes would disappear


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## Ashi (Nov 23, 2014)

Why can't we just love em both ?


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

@inu

I was responding to this more or less.



Nathan Copeland said:


> One Piece has definitely surpassed DBZ tho so in the end it might truly be the goat



>clearly suggests tha being better than DBZ makes OP something special and maybe potential best shounen ever.

In fact, let's not even say "best shounen." What we are discussing here is "shounen fighting series." These are the lowest of the low in terms of shounen, full of repetitive cliches, long, overly abused tropes and overall very juvenile.

Once you get out of that shounen fighting quagmire, you discover shounen can be rather diverse and far better than just your exposure to DBZ or Naruto would lead you to believe.


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## Skilatry (Nov 23, 2014)

Never understood why people thought YYH was great either, it was a lousy rinse and repeat story. Three tournament arcs in 175 chapters. lol


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## HolyHands (Nov 23, 2014)

Well if you're talking purely about story, then Naruto has Dragon Ball beat easily. Even if Naruto's story got really stupid at points, it put a hell of a lot more effort in it than Dragon Ball.

But when it comes to characters and action scenes, I feel that Dragon Ball still remains on the top. The simplicity of DB is also one of its greatest strengths. It's shonen in its purest form: fighting, spirit, power ups. Even if SSJ3 makes me roll my eyes from a story telling perspective, I still geek out when I listen to Goku's incredible screams as he powers up to SSJ3 for the first time. Good old martial arts beat em up action is something that never fails to get old.


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 23, 2014)

I like how OP sees world-building as a bad thing.

Narutoverse is so shoddily developed that Konoha had a chuunin exams exchange treaty or something with a non-existent village that was in actuality a large-scale jail run by a terrorist from _their _village for _years _and nobody ever questioned shit. Unreal.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> I like how OP sees world-building as a bad thing.
> 
> Narutoverse is so shoddily developed that Konoha had a chuunin exams exchange treaty or something with a non-existent village that was in actuality a large-scale jail run by a terrorist from _their _village for _years _and nobody ever questioned shit. Unreal.



...this isn't a criticism of worldbuilding whatsoever... You're kinda just pointing out that the Leaf's intel division sucks.


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## Fruit Monger (Nov 23, 2014)

Posting in a 5-Star thread.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> @inu
> 
> I was responding to this more or less.
> 
> ...



Sure. But since this is Narutoforums, with Bleach and One Piece sections, you kind of have to expect Naruto or things around it being what the average user's habits are. The B3 unfortunately get tons more exposure and views than series outside of brand name and long running reputation.



Skilatry said:


> Never understood why people thought YYH was great either, it was a lousy rinse and repeat story. Three tournament arcs in 175 chapters. lol



The anime version. More specifically, the anime dubbed version. Enough said.


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## Elicit94 (Nov 23, 2014)

There's no justifying the lack of world building in a manga like Naruto. There's also no justifying the character abandonment of our favorite side characters.


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## Skilatry (Nov 23, 2014)

Inuhanyou said:


> The anime version. More specifically, the anime dubbed version. Enough said.



It's the exact same thing.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Although to be fair to YYH, that was at the absolute height of DB's popularity. Every up and coming shounen series in the early 90s wanted to be like it. YYH, Hunter X Hunter obviously, Flame of Recca...literally everyone had to have a tournament arc in some way no matter the improbability


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQOT7nq9WfQ[/youtube]

Minoru Sensui was so much better than Shinobu....


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## PikaCheeka (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> ...this isn't a criticism of worldbuilding whatsoever... You're kinda just pointing out that the Leaf's intel division sucks.



It _is _a flaw of world-building. 

Kishi failed to properly develop some sort of protocol for what constituted a true shinobi village, how certain villages were chosen to be "capitals" for the nations, why only those villages were allowed to have kages, the relationship those villages had with others within their nation, how minor villages were run if they didn't have kages, why there are apparently dozens of other small nations that don't have capitals and kages, the kage-daimyo relationship, how _exactly _kages are chosen in each country, etc etc etc....

All of that should have been established throughout the manga, and Otogakure should have been placed within that framework. Because none of that was ever set up, "villages" like Oto were allowed to exist and nobody questioned them.

Narutoverse comes across as a total political free-for-all.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> It's the exact same thing.



^ Not even close. The japanese dub makes it a lot more bland of a series...when you put in the wisecracking antics of all the dub cast in, it becomes a much different affair than a wanna be DBZ, the characters essentially change the entire feeling of the series. Especially when chapter black kicks in..that arc was Togashi flexing his muscles for darker days.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

@Pika

Well phrased that way, I can see your point. Truth be told, I never understood the point of Feudal Lords anyway. The Ninja Villages should have just been independent.


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## Skilatry (Nov 23, 2014)

PikaCheeka said:


> It _is _a flaw of world-building.
> 
> Kishi failed to properly develop some sort of protocol for what constituted a true shinobi village, how certain villages were chosen to be "capitals" for the nations, why only those villages were allowed to have kages, the relationship those villages had with others within their nation, how minor villages were run if they didn't have kages, why there are apparently dozens of other small nations that don't have capitals and kages, the kage-daimyo relationship, how _exactly _kages are chosen in each country, etc etc etc....
> 
> ...



I don't see how thats a flaw in worldbuilding per se its more like the world they live in is corrupt and has underhanded shit going on all the time, which is what you'd expect of a ninja world. It's like looking at the real world and saying "How are North Korea and Israel allowed to exist, its bad worldbuiling". lol



Inuhanyou said:


> ^ Not even close. The japanese dub makes it a lot more bland of a series...when you put in the wisecracking antics of all the dub cast in, it becomes a much different affair than a wanna be DBZ, the characters essentially change the entire feeling of the series. Especially when chapter black kicks in..that arc was Togashi flexing his muscles for darker days.



The anime is based off the manga, the only difference is the ending. Other than that its basically the same thing.


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## Sablés (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Weapon (Nov 23, 2014)

Both series were good for their time and you can't really compare them considering they both serve different purposes to their target audiences. 

DragonBall is probably the most consistent Shounen to date though, there is no denying that fact. Toriyama still made it work and the story enjoyable despite having Nazi money snatchers force him to write the Majin Boo Arc (Which story aside, actually showcased some of his best fighting structures and character designs). 

When mangaka today of the same magazine have such a huge inspiration pool and guide like DragonBall itself, yet their merit drops over time and they can't learn and improve on that then that's when you know there's a problem.

Me anyways, I really like both series. I was a massive DragonBall nut but now after reading other series and recognizing it's very few flaws even I know it's best to just leave it be and recognize it's importance and greatness for it's time and to not really compare it with anything. 

OP upto Water 7, Naruto Part 1 and moments here and there in Shippuden are definitely comparable to Dragonball as a whole in most aspects if you were to break them down.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

I really need to read HXH... YYH was so great but that ending was... Let's just say I'm not a big fan of Three Kings. At all. 

Maybe Togashi improved after that giant fuck-up.


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## Nathan Copeland (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> @inu
> 
> I was responding to this more or less.
> 
> ...



the hell are you talking about?


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## Weapon (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> I really need to read HXH... YYH was so great but that ending was... Let's just say I'm not a big fan of Three Kings. At all.
> 
> Maybe Togashi improved after that giant fuck-up.



YYH is great, HxH is fucking trash though. Togashi shouldn't of started it if he couldn't stick to it. The series was great, Greed Island was the last good Arc before it just turned trash. When I did a clean out of my room a few months back I actually chucked out all my HxH volumes past volume 19.


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## Ether (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> I really need to read HXH... YYH was so great but that ending was... Let's just say I'm not a big fan of Three Kings. At all.
> 
> Maybe Togashi improved after that giant fuck-up.



Personally I think the HXH anime is better than the manga because the manga has much worse art overall and I mean much worse art. (I can't even recall the total number of redraws that Togashi had to do.)

I fear the day that I catch up to the manga because Togashi had to go on indefinite hiatus 

It was the main reason that I stalled watching HXH for the longest time.

That reminds me, I got to finish up the Sensui arc.

OT: You're entitled to your own opinion OP. In my opinion, DB/DBZ is a better series because of the reasons already stated by several other posters.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 23, 2014)

Weapon said:


> YYH is great, HxH is fucking trash though. Togashi shouldn't of started it if he couldn't stick to it. The series was great, Greed Island was the last good Arc before it just turned trash. When I did a clean out of my room a few months back I actually chucked out all my HxH volumes past volume 19.



You should add ''*in my opinion''*. Pretty sure many consider the chimera ant arc to be the best arc in HxH.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

@ Nathan

Shounen is a term meaning for young men or boys or some shit like that. Well, I think shounen might just mean boys? I dunno.

Anyway, Dragonball, Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail, even Fullmetal Alchemist or Inuyasha - these are all what are called Shounen Fighting or Shounen Battle Series. 

But this is not all there is in shounen. There are Shounen Sports series, like Rookies. There are shounen romance series, like Kimagure Orange Road. There's that new series by the lady who did FMA, about farming I think.

You will notice a lot of similarities between Naruto or DBZ or YYH and Kenshin. They share a lot of the same cliches and tropesa nd archetypes in spite of drastically different tones or time periods.

I can assure you though, you won't find these in non-fighting shounen for the most part. Be kind of weird if the "we can understand each other by fighting" theme so prevalent in fighting shounen was there in KOR.

That's why I encourage people to break out of the quagmire of shounen fighters and look to other, more interesting types of shounen.


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## Weapon (Nov 23, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> You should add ''*in my opinion''*. Pretty sure many consider the chimera ant arc to be the best arc in HxH.



Well it's my post, and usually *in my opinion* is implied. Especially considering I never said he / she / they said this. 

Did you even read the series on a week to week basis? Also, last time I checked HxH anime first fans consider that Arc to be the best. Which is understandable considering Togashi had nothing to do with re-portraying that part of the story.


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## Elicit94 (Nov 23, 2014)

OP gets negged like hell, but delivers 5 star thread.


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## Weapon (Nov 23, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> OP gets negged like hell, but delivers 5 star thread.



I actually think Naruto / Sasuke VS Goku / Vegeta Fight and Relationship is actually a good debate topic not Naruto vs DragonBall, although looks like people are steering away from that. Myself included.


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## Nathan Copeland (Nov 23, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> @ Nathan
> 
> Shounen is a term meaning for young men or boys or some shit like that. Well, I think shounen might just mean boys? I dunno.
> 
> ...



ohhhhh okay i understand now. also read other shounen like GTO and Slam Dunk


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 23, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Well it's my post, and usually *in my opinion* is implied. Especially considering I never said he / she / they said this.
> 
> Did you even read the series on a week to week basis? Also, last time I checked HxH anime first fans consider that Arc to be the best. Which is understandable considering Togashi had nothing to do with re-portraying that part of the story.



Ah my bad, thought you were telling the guy you quoted what the majority of the readers think of it.

I can't say anything for the anime only watchers, but even after watching the 2011 version, York new city stays my fav arc in that serie. Why other fans liked chimera arc more is beyond me


Edit: No i didn't read it weekly but monthly starting from volume 11


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)

HXH has so many hiatuses, its plain to see Togashi doesnt care much anymore heh


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 23, 2014)

I'm very grateful to DBZ for helping, along with Pokemon, to kick off "the Anime Boom." 

But that doesn't mean I haven't seen better anime and read better manga.

When I point to inconsistency, I point to Cell. This has nothing to do with fighting animations.

Goku blew off Cell's head and upper torso. it was fucking gone. Then Cell regenerated because he's part Namekian. Only Namekian regen takes a lot of ki/energy. So when he was regenerated, he was weaker.

Now flash forward to "Super Perfect Cell." Why is he alive and superpowered? Because of his Saiyan and Namekian biology. 
Saiyan = Zenkai from near death
Namekian = Regeneration

But...Zenkais don't heal your energy, and neither does Namekian regen. If regrowing half of his body had taken a huge toll on his energy levels, what would regrowing 99.9% of his body do to him?

Bt he comes back good as new and at full strength.

There is alsoa  huge problem with Gohan's characterization in the Cell Games. Believe me, I've argued this point with several people and it's something many a die-hard DBZ fan rages about. Gohan's "I don't want to fight you" is viewed as abrupt and ridiculous and does not match up with his previous character according to these people.

So that's inconcisent too.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 23, 2014)

Inuhanyou said:


> HXH has so many hiatuses, its plain to see Togashi doesnt care much anymore heh



That should've been obvious since 2012


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Weapon (Nov 23, 2014)

@CL

More like 2007, but yeah I agree with you. You can't beat York New and Greed Island. Chimera Ant arc was only bearable in the anime, even then the narrator and pacing was still a turn off.


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## Palm Siberia (Nov 23, 2014)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> That should've been obvious since 2012


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## Suit (Nov 23, 2014)

The only reason I haven't tried Hiatus x Hiatus yet.


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## Turrin (Nov 23, 2014)

I just think there is a-lot of hindsight bias with DBZ. Most of the stuff people complain about with Naruto are not only present in DBZ, but much more problematic than they are even at Naruto's worst. That's not to say I didn't greatly enjoy the series as a kid, because I did and will always have some fond memories of watching certain episodes. And I also appreciate that DBZ really struck a cord with kids and pre-teens in such a way that it was very successful in those markets. With that said if were talking about quality of writing than I don't see DBZ as any different from other shows I really enjoyed as a kid that have absolutely terrible writing in hindsight, like Pokemon, Yugioh, Digimon (Except maybe S3), and so on.


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## spiritmight (Nov 23, 2014)




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## Mizura (Nov 23, 2014)

sasykei said:


> *The suspense and mystery, such as the identity of Tobi* has been something I have never felt before.


 *rubs eyes* *squints*


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## Palm Siberia (Nov 23, 2014)

Who would have guessed Akatsuki Leader turned out to be Minato


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## Darkmanure (Nov 24, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Goku and Piccolo being aliens was a reasonable given. Kaguya in contrast was a villain, and worse yet the last of the manga that had not been built up for even a year before her introduction. On top of that, left a completely underwhelming presence it was a wonder why Kishimoto even bothered.
> 
> You're desperately reaching here.
> 
> ...



Kaiba is putting in work. Nicely put.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2014)

Someone said "suspense and mystery" in regards to tobi's identity 

Half the time people were trying to deny the obvious cause it was so stupidly predictable


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## ensoriki (Nov 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I just think there is a-lot of hindsight bias with DBZ. Most of the stuff people complain about with Naruto are not only present in DBZ, but much more problematic than they are even at Naruto's worst. That's not to say I didn't greatly enjoy the series as a kid, because I did and will always have some fond memories of watching certain episodes. And I also appreciate that DBZ really struck a cord with kids and pre-teens in such a way that it was very successful in those markets. With that said if were talking about quality of writing than I don't see DBZ as any different from other shows I really enjoyed as a kid that have absolutely terrible writing in hindsight, like Pokemon, Yugioh, Digimon (Except maybe S3), and so on.




....did you seriously compare DB to Ash Ketchum adventures?


im out.


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## Big Bob (Nov 24, 2014)

Gotta make that first post count ya know.


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## shade0180 (Nov 24, 2014)




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## Blizzard-chan (Nov 24, 2014)

Muah said:


> People really underestimate dragonballz.



It's kind of hard to see that through all those people who overrate it way too much. I love Dragon Ball and still think that it's one of the greatest shonen series of all time. But some people act as if it's leagues above Naruto which I think not. :/


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## babaGAReeb (Nov 24, 2014)

DBZ>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Nardo


just compare their final arcs, buu saga was shitty yes but watchable but nardos final war saga........ now that is just a pile of steaming shit


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## Kishido (Nov 24, 2014)

Frieza >>>> Every Naruto villian


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## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

No Shounen to date has ever ended well. The thing with DragonBall though, I honestly don't think the Majin Boo Arc was bad at all. I just think that people (myself included) think the Android / Cell Arc was perfect and that ending would of been better in comparison. 

Also *Turrin*, you have to consider when DragonBall was written (A time where there wasn't anyh creative over the top story-telling  in Manga) and the whole alien thing isn't as bad as you make it out to be. There were alien-like species throughout the entire first series and we obviously knew from the very first volume that Goku wasn't a normal human-being,


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## Rain (Nov 24, 2014)

Both manga are mediocre at their best and downright awful at their worst.


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## Rios (Nov 24, 2014)

HolyHands said:


> Well if you're talking purely about story, then Naruto has Dragon Ball beat easily. Even if Naruto's story got really stupid at points, it put a hell of a lot more effort in it than Dragon Ball.
> 
> But when it comes to characters and action scenes, I feel that Dragon Ball still remains on the top. The simplicity of DB is also one of its greatest strengths. It's shonen in its purest form: fighting, spirit, power ups. Even if SSJ3 makes me roll my eyes from a story telling perspective, I still geek out when I listen to Goku's incredible screams as he powers up to SSJ3 for the first time. Good old martial arts beat em up action is something that never fails to get old.



First time I watched DB I found all this screaming mighty annoying. Even wrestling is more interesting than this, but then again maybe I missed the right age to watch this at.


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## Escargon (Nov 24, 2014)

Nice trolling some people propably fell for it.

Sasuke VS Naruto fight, compare it to Vegeta VS Goku fight. Last fight VS a fight in the middle of the manga.

No fucking fight can surpass Vegeta VS Goku fight. No fucking fight at all.


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## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

Escargon said:


> No fucking fight can surpass Vegeta VS Goku fight. No fucking fight at all.



Piccolo vs 17 >


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## Pirao (Nov 24, 2014)

Anko-san said:


> DB character's rooster was pathetic, with Goku being the supreme all loving, all powerful mary sue in which sadly most shonen MCs are based.
> .



Goku a Mary Sue 



Weapon said:


> No Shounen to date has ever ended well. The thing with DragonBall though, I honestly don't think the Majin Boo Arc was bad at all. I just think that people (myself included) think the Android / Cell Arc was perfect and that ending would of been better in comparison.
> 
> Also *Turrin*, you have to consider when DragonBall was written (A time where there wasn't anyh creative over the top story-telling  in Manga) and the whole alien thing isn't as bad as you make it out to be. There were alien-like species throughout the entire first series and we obviously knew from the very first volume that Goku wasn't a normal human-being,



Toriyama wanted to end it on Namek, that would have been a perfect ending. As bad as DBZ's ending was compared to what could have been, it's still >>>>Naruto's.


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## Dragon D. Luffy (Nov 24, 2014)

3/10

The title makes it look like it will be a great piece of trolling, but it is too obvious. Needs more elaborated arguments to make it more convincing.


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## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

Pirao said:


> Goku a Mary Sue
> 
> 
> 
> Toriyama wanted to end it on Namek, that would have been a perfect ending. As bad as DBZ's ending was compared to what could have been, it's still >>>>Naruto's.



Yeah, I knew about that although I think it's good that it didn't end their since the prime of the series overall in my opinion came from Android / Cell Saga and the inclusion of Future Trunks.

If he could of ended it there, I know it would of been changed a lot but still I wouldn't of wanted the series to end with Goku getting this power up and being on another planet. 

Freeza is a great villain, but I don't see him as a fitting Final Villain. Gohan being the one to take out the final threat is how the series should of ended.


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## Pirao (Nov 24, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Yeah, I knew about that although I think it's good that it didn't end their since the prime of the series overall in my opinion came from Android / Cell Saga and the inclusion of Future Trunks.
> 
> If he could of ended it there, I know it would of been changed a lot but still I wouldn't of wanted the series to end with Goku getting this power up and being on another planet.
> 
> Freeza is a great villain, but I don't see him as a fitting Final Villain. Gohan being the one to take out the final threat is how the series should of ended.



The Cell saga was entertaining don't get me wrong, but I didn't like the fact that Frieza's power, a guy who was supposed to be this huge threat to the universe who noone could even think of defeating until Goku got a legendary power up, was surpassed so easily by some random scientist of a mook army. The saga itself was well executed but the premise was ridiculous IMO.

Buu Saga was a mess in general.


----------



## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

Pirao said:


> The Cell saga was entertaining don't get me wrong, but I didn't like the fact that Frieza's power, a guy who was supposed to be this huge threat to the universe who noone could even think of defeating until Goku got a legendary power up, was surpassed so easily by some random scientist of a mook army. The saga itself was well executed but the premise was ridiculous IMO.
> 
> Buu Saga was a mess in general.




I have something that you could think about and maybe try and re-consider about with the Cell and Freeza comparison. (This was something I used to talk about and say back on MFG back in the day)

Freeza being a galactic threat doesn't mean he was this over the top unstoppable being. The Ginyu Force (5 different races) are basically a super group showcase with what the galaxy has to offer among those planets he presumably destroyed and conquered pushing them under his control. If Base Vegeta, Krillin and Kid Gohan were matching them then it doesn't add much merit to the potential of other planets out there compared to Earth and Plant / Planet Vegeta. Even Namek's best Nail was trash.

That being said, it's understandable that Gero who's been in hiding for so long of his intelligence capability could create something like Cell. Cell became stronger because of how he was designed and created which I doubt even Gero expected and because of the amount of energy he stole on top of that. 

An advantage he has over Freeze too that warrants his status is regeneration which after Cell basically became a common thing. 

About the entire Boo part or post Cell, Like I stated before I think that the battles were great and it provided some of Toriyama's best designs. Although the story wasn't as good and you could tell was just made up on a week to week basis and not really storyboarded at all. I bet Ultimate Gohan was meant to be the Boo killer until he had to drag it on longer. The whole Other / Kai World thing was completely unnecessary.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Basically this.

DBZ will never be "passed". To put it in perspective. It's still making money, and it was over when I was a kid, and I'm 26 years old.

To put it in another perspective, they had DBZ games on the Nintendo Entertainment System. 

One would say something about beating a dead horse. But DBZ is not a dead horse, it's still quite alive and kicking.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Nov 24, 2014)

​


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> So Toriyama milked his franchise. At least he didn't do it pretentiously.



You say "milked" as if he's already finished. It's "milking", as in he's still doing so years after it's ended. Again, I stated before, DBZ Games were on the Nintendo Entertainment System, that's how old the Manga/Anime is.


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## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> You say "milked" as if he's already finished. It's "milking", as in he's still doing so years after it's ended. Again, I stated before, DBZ Games were on the Nintendo Entertainment System, that's how old the Manga/Anime is.



The NES game doesn't compare to this (Same year but looks much more antique):



^ THAT'S how old DragonBall is.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Weapon said:


> The NES game doesn't compare to this (Same year but looks much more antique):
> 
> 
> 
> ^ THAT'S how old DragonBall is.



True, you still had the original Dragonball, but that's older. I was saying DBZ in particular. That's still being milked, and there's a new game coming out soon, Xenoverse I think.


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## Monna (Nov 24, 2014)

Weapon said:


> The NES game doesn't compare to this (Same year but looks much more antique):
> 
> 
> 
> ^ THAT'S how old DragonBall is.


That cover art is really neat


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Jane Crocker said:


> That cover art is really neat



Ah Dragonball, back when Earthlings who weren't Androids were actually a real threat.


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## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> True, you still had the original Dragonball, but that's older. I was saying DBZ in particular. That's still being milked, and there's a new game coming out soon, Xenoverse I think.



Ohh, I thought you were talking about the first DragonBall NES game. The game I linked literally came out on a cassette player before this first DragonBall NES title in 84. The first DragonBall Z title came to NES in 1990.

The graphics:

*Spoiler*: __


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## Divinstrosity (Nov 24, 2014)

Naruto was a quality manga/anime in part 1.

I can't tell anyone what to like...

...but I hate almost everything about part 2. Rock Lee was my favorite character, and then my second favorite after Itachi was intro'd. That would have not been possible, for me, in part 2. Why? He was totally insignificant. 

I don't even particularly care for part 2 Itachi. 

I did like the Obito/Kushina/Minato/Kyuubi attack flashback. 

Hell, while I'm at it...

- Tobi was a cool character as the jokester. Once he became the 'overlord' he became lame. Very. Imo, of course.

- I did not like a single fight - tho', I did like the Izanami loop, and how frustrated Kabuto was ... despite the fact that I thought Izanami was a asspull of epic proportions. Otherwise, I didn't like the fight.

-  Pain/Nagato was way too depressing. Not to mention, I still want to punch Kishimoto in the nose for the lame designs of most of the Pain bodies. 

- Naruto, the character, was mind numbingly boring. He was tolerable in part 1, and even funny at times. In part 2, I disliked almost everything about him. I don't vibe with his character AT ALL. I did like this hand-to-hand fight with Karui and Omoi. That was cool, even though it was over as quickly as it started. It was just interesting to see Naruto look so  ... skilled and competent. lol. 

Outside of small parts of a few battles, not a single part 2 fight intrigued me. 

I continued reading Naruto simply because I'm a diehard optimist, who believes there is always a chance things will get better. 

I started watching the anime and reading the manga in 2006. By the time I finished part 1, I was extremely excited about what part 2 would be like. 

I had such high hopes for Akatsuki. They disappointed big time. 

Just disappointed that I wasted my time. I have no reason to go back and re-read this manga, unless I get nostalgic down the line, and want to recapture some moments and feelings from the past. 

Oh ... as far DBZ, it wasn't the most complex story, but it didn't try to be. Its purpose was purely to entertain, and it did that well enough that they're still making a lot of money off of it. I can only judge it on what it seems the authors intent was. 

Oh ... and to hell with all of you. Fat Buu is God.


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## Madelyne (Nov 24, 2014)

DB and the word "surpassed" in the same sentence?
I love Naruto and OP but DB is still going strong after 30 years. You just can't top that at least not yet. IMO.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 24, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> True, you still had the original Dragonball, but that's older. I was saying DBZ in particular. That's still being milked, and there's a new game coming out soon, Xenoverse I think.



You do know, that except in the anime,
Japaneses makes no difference between Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z.
It's like Naruto & Naruto Shippuden. The manga is still called Dragon Ball everywhere.


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## shade0180 (Nov 24, 2014)

But seriously Toriyama is still milking the franchise even today. 

Movies and games are still coming out, there are manga's that uses db's name getting published which he probably gets a cut out of it. and Anime is still being aired repeatedly in different part of the world.


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## Lord Hirako (Nov 24, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> But seriously Toriyama is still milking the franchise even today.
> 
> Movies and games are still coming out, there are manga's that uses db's name getting published which he probably gets a cut out of it. and Anime is still being aired repeatedly in different part of the world.



Tell me about it dragon ball has been airing here since 1989 and its still going strong. 

Naruto only aired for 4 years and was never heard again.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> You do know, that except in the anime,
> Japaneses makes no difference between Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z.
> It's like Naruto & Naruto Shippuden. The manga is still called Dragon Ball everywhere.



Most people refer to DBZ the anime and mostly ignore the original series, and not to the manga Dragonball. But yes, I see your point there and it is valid. 

Oh god, what if Naruto Part 3 is like Dragonball: GT...

Edit: By the way, how old is that cover?


----------



## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

Lord Hirako said:


> Tell me about it dragon ball has been airing here since 1989 and its still going strong.



Top 10 Most Popular Anime on Hulu
1.) Naruto Shippuden
2.) One Piece
3.) Dragon Ball Z
4.) Fairy Tail
5.) Bleach
6.) Naruto
7.) Yu-Gi-Oh!
8.) Sword Art Online
9.) InuYasha
10.) Sailor Moon Crystal


Naruto remains one of, if not the, absolute best seller of Viz's properties.

I could argue DB just had good timing here in the US - like Gundam Wing haters argue - but I won't. But Naruto is still one of the most popular anime properties going.

Will it still be going in another 2 decades? I have no idea. We can continue this topic then.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> Top 10 Most Popular Anime on Hulu
> 1.) Naruto Shippuden
> 2.) One Piece
> 3.) Dragon Ball Z
> ...



I don't think that's really a fair judgement, given that DBZ has been completed for YEARS, and by YEARS, I mean since I was a kid in elementary school at least. 1989 to 1996 to be exact, so you really can't compare the two. The fact that it's still right here at Number 3 speaks volumes. The only reason One Piece and Naruto are ahead, is because in my opinion, they're producing new episodes.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

Well, yes, the new episodes help. But clearly DBZ has something going for it that Naruto doesn't - nostalgia. Inuyasha and Yugioh are both on there as wel because, like DBZ, they were extraordinary hits even when anime was at its peak popularity in the world.

We gotta understand that, while Dragonball itself is around 30 years old, Dragonball Z to the world is only about 10-15 years old. It only took off here in the late 90s/early 2000s.

So a lot of the 20-somethings like us who grew up with it on Toonami still adore it. We were the sheep who tuned in every goddam episode even as it took a month for Namek to blow up.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2014)

Old anime that are completed get left in memories most of the time, syndicated series that are going are what get the most attention..

3x3 eyes would never get popular unless it got a new anime, that's cause nobody goes back to old properties unfortunately, fanbases dont go in reverse


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 24, 2014)

TheGreen1 said:


> Most people refer to DBZ the anime and mostly ignore the original series, and not to the manga Dragonball. But yes, I see your point there and it is valid.
> 
> Oh god, what if Naruto Part 3 is like Dragonball: GT...
> 
> Edit: By the way, how old is that cover?



This cover of Volume 41 ? It's from early 1995. There are 42 volumes in Dragon Ball, ending up with Uub leaving with Goku.

The manga is around 500 chapters long.



Zaelapolopollo said:


> Well, yes, the new episodes help. But clearly DBZ has something going for it that Naruto doesn't - nostalgia. Inuyasha and Yugioh are both on there as wel because, like DBZ, they were extraordinary hits even when anime was at its peak popularity in the world.
> 
> We gotta understand that, while Dragonball itself is around 30 years old, Dragonball Z to the world is only about 10-15 years old. It only took off here in the late 90s/early 2000s.
> 
> So a lot of the 20-somethings like us who grew up with it on Toonami still adore it. We were the sheep who tuned in every goddam episode even as it took a month for Namek to blow up.



DBZ came in america when the series was over in the rest of the world. I was watching Dragon Ball GT on TV when DBZ started in the US.
DBZ started airing in japan, when the last episode of the original DB series was over. The Dragon Ball Z anime started in 1989 in japan and in almost every other country, except US.


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## Badalight (Nov 24, 2014)

Weapon said:


> *No Shounen to date has ever ended well. The thing with DragonBall though*, I honestly don't think the Majin Boo Arc was bad at all. I just think that people (myself included) think the Android / Cell Arc was perfect and that ending would of been better in comparison.



What are you talking about? How many shounen have you actually read?  

There wasn't any over the top storytelling? You realize DB came out after shit like Kinnikunman and Fist of the North Star, which make DBZ look subtle.



Weapon said:


> @CL
> 
> More like 2007, but yeah I agree with you. You can't beat York New and Greed Island. Chimera Ant arc was only bearable in the anime, even then the narrator and pacing was still a turn off.



I disagree. For the record, I am anime only when it comes to HXH, but CA is by faaaaaaaar my favorite arc (and this opinion holds with everyone I know personally that has watched the series). I was a bit turned off by the narration at first, but I came to love it.


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## Tony Lou (Nov 24, 2014)

DB had an incredibly cool concept, but that's about it.

It's not really famous for the storytelling.


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## Raidoton (Nov 24, 2014)

Turrin said:


> While Naruto has surpassed DBZ by a VAST VAST VAST margin, that is an EXTREMELY low bar. Dragon-Ball on the other hand is a bit more debatable


Yeah. It's not hard to create a better story and better fights than DBZ. DBZ was amazing when it was released, but it didn't age well.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2014)

I would argue its not a matter of "not aging well".


DB can be credited with jump starting many concepts in modern day shounen, good a*nd bad. It is the grandfather of the standard shounen jump style shounen people look to as examples. That doesn't mean its a hallmark of storytelling, there were shounen before it and shounen after that were much better written and were much more cohesive as manga. Hotoku no Ken/Fist of the north star being a prime example*

People say that DB gets a pass. It doesn't for its flaws...what people in defense of DB say is you have to judge is the series on its own merits. What is it trying to be? What its trying to portray? In DB's case, nothing really in particular. Its an action fighting, martial arts story about adventure and beating bad guys.

So you can't really hold it up as failing hard at taking things seriously when its not trying to really. Toriama usually just shrugs when he cant explain things in the series he put in there himself. And that's okay, cause he wasn't trying to make something novel and out there when drawing it.


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## ice77 (Nov 24, 2014)

sasykei said:


> Thank you Kishimoto for this masterpiece river of feels.
> Naruto has perfectly developed cast of characters, no ridicilous amount of world building like in toriko or one piece. The suspense and mystery, such as the identity of Tobi has been something I have never felt before. I.. don't know what to do anymore. I am officially done witj mangas and that's all I wanted to say in all honesty. I am def going to watch The Last atleast so it is  all bad.
> 
> Btw I have never seen anything like Sasuke vs Naruto before and never probaby will. I'm thankful I picked this up years ago.
> ...



*Don't worry once the feels settle themselves you'll start to notice all the flaws...all in due time of course. 

Also it doesnt seem like you been around action shounen long enough to really have much to say(not blaming you or anything) if you seen anything like Naruto. unfortunetely its Another story where it starts of very siimple and fun but fails to dliver at the end. Not the first time that happened in this genre and won't be the last but trust me you need to Watch way more action shounen to understand all the tropes and be able to give fair comperisons before jumping to such conclusions. 

Also you say you never seen anything like Naruto and Sasuke and yet the rivalry stories such as that have been done before...hell some would argue they have been done bigger and they have been done better....once again try a few more action shounen mangas to get exactly what Im saying. 

And no Naruto vs Sasuke did not surpass Goku and Vegeta rivalry by asny means. Akira Toryama set the standard which Naruto, OP, Bleach and all the other action shounen mangas follow to this day. naruto achieved absolutely nothing in that regard but that is something you'll have to discover for yourself to understand...and once again no hard feelings...just my 2 cents on your thread there mate.*


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 24, 2014)

Raidoton said:


> Yeah. It's not hard to create a better story and better fights than DBZ. DBZ was amazing when it was released, but it didn't age well.



You could say it didn't age well if it wasn't selling well, or if people only remembered it. But it's still raking in money even today. Look at Xenoverse, the newest game. We've been telling the same DBZ story over, and over, and over, and over, for almost two decades now. DBZ is still making games, and I've stated numerous times in this thread, Dragonball Z games can date back to the NES.

The only other example I can put like this is Street Fighter 2, which has been rehashed and re-released for years.


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## Pirao (Nov 24, 2014)

Raidoton said:


> Yeah. It's not hard to create a better story and better fights than DBZ. DBZ was amazing when it was released, *but it didn't age well.*



A series that is still relevant 30 years after it started and almost 20 years since it ended didn't age well 

Naruto wishes it could age half as well as Dragon Ball has, because in 20 years it won't be even half as relevant as Dragon Ball is right now.


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## StuckInADaze (Nov 24, 2014)

I think Full Metal Alchemist and Ruroini Kenshin are far better than both, but if we're strictly comparing Naruto and DBZ I'd rank Naruto part 1>DBZ>Natuto shippuden.


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## Spurdo Sparde (Nov 24, 2014)

fuk DBZ all is it is just ripped guys screaming l0000l r u gay if u like it????!!111 obviously lol


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2014)

I don't even know what any of that means


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

Inuhanyou said:


> I don't even know what any of that means



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_CcJ-uBWI[/YOUTUBE]

That's what he meant.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

40 people were killed and another 80 were maimed in the debris caused by Goku's powerup.

Don't worry though, everything can be fixed with the Dragonballs. Death means fucking nothing.

And you thought Nagato's Rinne Tensei on Konoha was bad.


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## Spurdo Sparde (Nov 24, 2014)

lmao no jutsus, 0/10 gay shit


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## Spurdo Sparde (Nov 24, 2014)

looool if me mum heard me watching this, she would think it's gey porn loooooooool

wow, fuking gay lol


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> 40 people were killed and another 80 were maimed in the debris caused by Goku's powerup.
> 
> Don't worry though, everything can be fixed with the Dragonballs. Death means fucking nothing.
> 
> And you thought Nagato's Rinne Tensei on Konoha was bad.



And when has that ever not been the case in DBZ, or DB for that matter  

Don't act like rinne tensei was not an asspull because "oh i saw the light!". Nobody had ever been revived no strings attached before that time. Edo tensei was atleast limited.

And yes, let's take an extended anime scene of DBZ to fill up time and compare it to an actual plot device inside the Naruto manga


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

I wasn't comparing SSJ3 to RT. I used SSJ3 s a segue into the topic of DBZ's horrible abuse of the Dragon Balls plot device which destroyed any tension the series had. To the point the entire human race can be killed off and no one is worried because "fuck, we can bring 'em all back anyway."


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## egressmadara (Nov 24, 2014)

theyre the same rly at the end of da day


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## Spurdo Sparde (Nov 24, 2014)

i h8 the way the obviously ripped of madara's hair style LOOOOL

copycat ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)


----------



## Altair21 (Nov 24, 2014)

DB didn't try and be something it wasn't. Naruto on the other hand attempted to throw in an extremely complex story and failed miserably at it. 

DB as a whole is certainly much better than Naruto as a whole. The fact that it's still one of the most relevant mangas out there despite it ending almost 20 years ago is a testament to that.


----------



## Nathan Copeland (Nov 24, 2014)

If Naruto stuck with the Part 1 Style it would most definitely be the goat


----------



## Muah (Nov 24, 2014)

Dude people are seriously over rating naruto. It's shit compared to the great mangas. You don't even have to look past a ninja in an orange jumpsuit to realize it was a shit manga. Part 1 was infinitely greater than part 2 but part 1 was a joke too. At least at the time people realized that. Anybody who sees this manga in the top 30 ever is an idiot. I could list manga's I didn't even finish that were way better quality than Naruto.

It only has one good arc. The chunnin exams. Wave village has very little rereadabilty and the chapters after the chunnin exams are only good in the anime. It's good with hidan and kakuza, deidra was alright and Naruto becoming a sage. Litterlly everything else was laughable I made fun of this manga for about 10 years.

How can people even compare it to DBZ? Do Americans really have such shit taste. three years from now people will have forgotten Naruto. H ave you ever met a Naruto fan they're usually overweight socially inept morons. atleast Dragon ball z had cool fans that we can relate too.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

Yes, it's just Americans. We're all so stupid.

It's not like Naruto is in the  and that's based off of sales in Japan. Where Naruto has utterly eclipsed hundreds of other series spanning several decades. 

Yes, Naruto is clearly some crazy underdog only a few people like.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 24, 2014)

Why is there even a Naruto Forums anyway? Who the fuck ever heard of or liked Naruto?


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 24, 2014)

Cell and frieza >>>>>>>>>> all naruto villians.
Goku >>>>>>>>>>> all naruto characters
Dbz Fights infinitely better than narutos
Dbz movies infinitely better than narutos

Naruto may have better character development but who cares


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 24, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> Cell and frieza >>>>>>>>>> all naruto villians.
> Goku >>>>>>>>>>> all naruto characters
> Dbz Fights infinitely better than narutos
> Dbz movies infinitely better than narutos
> ...



Everyone who isn't a power level whore ?


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## CrimsonRex (Nov 24, 2014)

Good joke, I had a good laugh.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 24, 2014)

A lot of people in this thread are not from the US


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## CrimsonRex (Nov 24, 2014)

I consider that a good thing.


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## Kanga (Nov 24, 2014)

Funny thread.


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## Plague (Nov 24, 2014)

I'm sure Naruto comes ahead in some category, but overall, I prefer DBZ. It was actually a lot more entertaining and the fights were worth the talking. 

Not 20 chapters of flashbacks and "explaining" like in Naruto and Bleach xD


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## Tapion (Nov 24, 2014)

Gohan vs Cel 
18mil views 
Upload date 2013
April 25, 1989 to January 31, 1996

Checkmate Nautianity


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## pimpnamedslipback (Nov 24, 2014)

Obviously what people find acceptable
changes over time.  There are different criteria for comparison. 
But nah nardo aint got shit on DB


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## Weapon (Nov 24, 2014)

Badalight said:


> What are you talking about? How many shounen have you actually read?
> 
> There wasn't any over the top storytelling? You realize DB came out after shit like Kinnikunman and Fist of the North Star, which make DBZ look subtle.
> 
> I disagree. For the record, I am anime only when it comes to HXH, but CA is by faaaaaaaar my favorite arc (and this opinion holds with everyone I know personally that has watched the series). I was a bit turned off by the narration at first, but I came to love it.



It's fact though, No Shounen's end that well. Kinnikuman isn't great at all compared to DragonBall. Although I forgot about HnK (Which only came out a year before DragonBall) which is great because Buronson is a master.

Yeah well that's your opinion and I already stated that most anime watchers would obviously like CA because of how it was re-portrayed in the anime which is a credit to MadHouse not Togashi's writing. Togashi's peak in HxH has already been and gone. It would take a lot to redeem CA / HE through  Dark Continent especially considering his routine. Although, I'm still excited and see a lot of potential here but I can never get over personally how bad CA and the election arc was in the manga (In every aspect, not just art).


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## ch1p (Nov 24, 2014)

Zaelapolopollo said:


> 40 people were killed and another 80 were maimed in the debris caused by Goku's powerup.
> 
> Don't worry though, everything can be fixed with the Dragonballs. Death means fucking nothing.
> 
> And you thought Nagato's Rinne Tensei on Konoha was bad.



DBZ didn't put on airs about life and death being these important concepts, how people got lonely and angsted and had thirst for acknowledgement and shit if exposed to them and uuuh depth. It was actually just a training grounds.


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## Badalight (Nov 24, 2014)

Weapon said:


> It's fact though, No Shounen's end that well. Kinnikuman isn't great at all compared to DragonBall. Although I forgot about HnK (Which only came out a year before DragonBall) which is great because Buronson is a master.
> 
> Yeah well that's your opinion and I already stated that most anime watchers would obviously like CA because of how it was re-portrayed in the anime which is a credit to MadHouse not Togashi's writing. Togashi's peak in HxH has already been and gone. It would take a lot to redeem CA / HE through  Dark Continent especially considering his routine. Although, I'm still excited and see a lot of potential here but I can never get over personally how bad CA and the election arc was in the manga (In every aspect, not just art).



I'm not a manga reader, but I know your opinion is not uncommon among them; however, I think I'd at least half attribute that to the hiatuses. Taking such long breaks inbetween and getting the art that Togashi farted out probably burnt a lot of people. Plus with such long wait times, it's impossible to stay excited or to keep the momentum going. Berserk is still a great series, but I can't get excited over new chapters because they take so long to come out. I imagine if HXH actually came out week to week that the manga readers would've enjoyed the ant arc far more.

And in terms of shounen, do you simply mean shounen battle manga? Outside of that category, plenty of them have satisfactory endings. Even in that category they don't all end like crap. Jojos (while technically on going, it did have a 'conclusion' and ended its reign in Weekly Shounen jump with part 6).


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## Spurdo Sparde (Nov 25, 2014)

l00000000000l why do people who like dbz have to act lyke such faggoty elitists

u still liek anime at the end of the day, nothing 2 be proud about!!!!!1111 l0000l


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## Escargon (Nov 25, 2014)




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## shade0180 (Nov 25, 2014)

> Naruto may have better character development


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 25, 2014)

ch1p said:


> DBZ didn't put on airs about life and death being these important concepts, how people got lonely and angsted and had thirst for acknowledgement and shit if exposed to them and uuuh depth. It was actually just a training grounds.



Probably because the DragonBalls were able to resurrect everyone hundreds of times. Nobody ever really stayed dead. Case in Point, Master Roshi looked like he was about to keel over while Goku was a kid, and he was still alive to see Chi-Chi grow old.


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## Jυstin (Nov 25, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> Naruto may have better character development but who cares



It's about the same, which isn't good for Naruto. DBZ's was intentional, while Naruto's was from a lack of proper development. Kishi tried it but ultimately failed to make anything other than two-dimensional characters.

It could still be argued DBZ has better development (though less focus on it), especially with Vegeta.


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## shade0180 (Nov 25, 2014)

> Probably because the DragonBalls were able to resurrect everyone hundreds of times. Nobody ever really stayed dead. Case in Point, Master Roshi looked like he was about to keel over while Goku was a kid, and he was still alive to see Chi-Chi grow old.



Er Roshi ate the fruit of longevity or something, Got the blessing of Eternal Phoenix. Which is why he is practically a living immortal. It practically was told when Goku first met him and during the first time he went up the Korin tower.

Toriyama never made an excuse for why Roshi was alive. He practically said that Roshi would live long since the first time he showed up. 



> DragonBalls were able to resurrect everyone hundreds of times



Dragon Ball has a 1 death per revival Rule, When Kami was still the one Guarding it. which was changed by Dende later on when he took over... It was even a plot point for some time.

So I'm just going to say either review what you are trying to talk about or just zip your mouth since you have no idea about what you are talking about


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 25, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> Er Roshi ate the fruit of longevity or something, Got the blessing of Eternal Phoenix. Which is why he is practically a living immortal. It practically was told when Goku first met him and during the first time he went up the Korin tower.
> 
> Toriyama never made an excuse for why Roshi was alive. He practically said that Roshi would live long since the first time he showed up.


Well then, that would explain alot. I never got to watch all of the original Dragonball series. Just a few episodes as a kid when it was dubbed and shown on some other channel besides cartoon network... I think UPN.

As for your other comment, I'm man enough to admit that I don't or haven't followed DBZ as closely as I have Naruto. But that doesn't excuse you being a little shit and commenting on something that was clearly not even directed to you.


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## Aazadan (Nov 25, 2014)

Plague said:


> I'm sure Naruto comes ahead in some category, but overall, I prefer DBZ. It was actually a lot more entertaining and the fights were worth the talking.
> 
> Not 20 chapters of flashbacks and "explaining" like in Naruto and Bleach xD



See, that's what I actually like about Naruto and it's one of the ways in which it's better than DBZ.  DBZ has larger scale fights with huge explosions which many people like, I'll grant that but it's like comparing a Michael Bay movie to an Alfred Hitchcock movie.  One just has more depth than the other.

Kishi spent a lot of time trying to go into emotions and motivations with his characters.  Sometimes that failed horribly like Sakura loving Sasuke but at other times he really pulled it off well like Itachi struggling with trying to maintain the standard of being an emotionless tool while having to do some extremely emotional things like kill his parents.

It's also worth pointing out that Dragon Ball the manga was actually very fast paced.  The start of the Saiyan saga with Raditz showing up was chapter 195 while the series ended with Buu being reborn on chapter 519.  That means that everything which people consider DBZ happened in the space of 324 chapters.  To put that in context that's less than just part 2 of Naruto.  Dragonball was much more of an action series and jumped from fight to fight at a quick pace, Naruto instead focused on the background and framing each fight in context of what it meant to the participants and that meant slower pacing with flashbacks.


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## John Connor (Nov 25, 2014)

Naruto has the most complete battle system out of any Shonen but DBZ will always win the powerup battle and the pure fighting quality 

you can make a really good DnD game out of Naruto because the world is constructed a lot better than DBZ


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## Vermin (Nov 25, 2014)

i still enjoy naruo more so whateves


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 25, 2014)

> Naruto has the most complete battle system out of any Shonen



hahahahahaha


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## Badalight (Nov 25, 2014)

John Connor said:


> Naruto has the most complete battle system out of any Shonen but DBZ will always win the powerup battle and the pure fighting quality
> 
> you can make a really good DnD game out of Naruto because the world is constructed a lot better than DBZ



Someone hasn't read HXH.


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## John Connor (Nov 25, 2014)

Badalight said:


> Someone hasn't read HXH.


HxH is more creative but the battle system from top to bottom makes more sense in Naruto

how can someone want to be a Hunter when they dont even know what Nen is?


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## Nathan Copeland (Nov 25, 2014)

Is HXH really good as people claim?

I hear it's like Yu Yu Hakusho + One Piece


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## thechickensage (Nov 25, 2014)

The thing that drew me into naruto was its intelligent fights (imagine my disappointment with the final arc!)

Does HxH have strategy without OP characters?


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## spiritmight (Nov 25, 2014)

HxH is more like Yu Yu Hakusho mixed with One Piece and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure because of how specific and detailed some of the abilities are (like the Stands in JJBA)

There isn't as much strategy as you might find in Naruto, but it's still there. But fights are usually brute forced despite the variety of the powers.


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## Misha (Nov 25, 2014)

Is there a forum with more self loathing then Naruto forums 

HxH universe is forgettable compared to Naruto universe. Naruto has one of the best settings in a manga ever.


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## Milliardo (Nov 25, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> HxH is more like Yu Yu Hakusho mixed with One Piece and Jojo's Bizarre Adventure because of how specific and detailed some of the abilities are (like the Stands in JJBA)
> 
> There isn't as much strategy as you might find in Naruto, but it's still there. But fights are usually brute forced despite the variety of the powers.



what?? i greatly disagree with you. I see equal to or more strategy in HxH compared to Naruto. 

naruto was more strategic in part one. not really in part two as brute force outweigh it.


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## Turrin (Nov 26, 2014)

Weapon said:


> No Shounen to date has ever ended well.



Flame of Recca, Full Metal Alchemist, Inyuyasha, and I'm sure there are plenty more as I haven't read anywhere close to every Shonen. Than there are certainly passable ones like YuYuHakusho. 



> The thing with DragonBall though, I honestly don't think the Majin Boo Arc was bad at all. I just think that people (myself included) think the Android / Cell Arc was perfect and that ending would of been better in comparison.


Whether you enjoyed them or not does not define good writing. The inherent problem with those last 2 Arcs is that they were pointless story-telling wise. The entire story of Dragon-Ball was about collecting the Dragon-Balls and Goku winning the martial arts tournament. Both of these plots were resolved before Z. This renders Z largely pointless, however at least up to the Frieza Arc it had to do with exploring the back story and origins of where Goku (and the Dragon-Balls) came from. It was a poorly thought out explanation and the power-scaling was atrocious, but at least it had some point to the overarching story. The Arcs after that however had no point, because there was nothing left to tell about the story of the characters. Goku had won the martial arts tournament, the Dragon-Balls had been collected many times, all of their back stories were completely explored by then. 

What point did the story have other than hey they are fighting this new guy now? You can't have a functional story where there is no character Arc whatsoever for any character in the series and it's just fighting. And before you cite Vegata, honestly his character arc was completely in the Frieza Saga and the rest was just back tracking and than re-treading the growth he already displayed in that Arc.

The Naruto equivalent to DBZ would be if Naruto was Hokage, Sasuke was leaving peacefully in Konoha having resurrected his clan, every sing mystery from the start of the series was resolved, and than we just throw out random villains that have nothing to do with anything for them to fight. Or hell considering the fucking story is called Dragon-Ball, and the Dragon Ball Quest didn't even exist in those final arcs, it would be like if the Naruto manga's final arcs didn't even focus on Naruto at all.



> Also *Turrin*, you have to consider when DragonBall was written (A time where there wasn't anyh creative over the top story-telling  in Manga) and the whole alien thing isn't as bad as you make it out to be.


Wasn't any creative over the top story telling? Astro Boy says hi. It's just that nothing was as over the top as DBZ, because it's terrible writing to go so over the top that all the characters bar Goku are completely irrelevant on the power-scale by the end of the series where they'd get crushed by just being in the presence of the FV. That's not a perk, that's horrible flaw.



> There were alien-like species throughout the entire first series and we obviously knew from the very first volume that Goku wasn't a normal human-being, [


There were not Alien species. There were Mutants, which I accept as part of that world, because it was established to be so from the very starts. Goku himself wasn't an alien originally, he was based on the mythology, I.E. the Journey to the West's Monkey King, and basically fit into the overarching mythology of the series about their being Gods like Kami, Piccolo, etc... Not a single thing hinted at these characters being aliens, and rather everything pointed to them being Gods. Than out of nowhere it's like BTW they are actually aliens. 

Basically for the same reason it would be silly for Kaguya to be an alien it was extremely silly for Goku and Piccolo to be aliens, because the world was built in a very specific way that does not lend itself to their randomly being aliens.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 26, 2014)

Mecha can be counted as shoune, in which case Zeta Gundam and Gundam Wing had great endings.


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## Weapon (Nov 26, 2014)

HxH has rules and laws that can be easily bent because how the powers and abilities work compared to Naruto so of course the series has comparable strategic battle structures. HxH opens up to more possibilities and creative writing yet in my opinion Naruto still had more enjoyable fights. HxH did have some really enjoyable shit earlier on. 




Turrin said:


> Flame of Recca, Full Metal Alchemist, Inyuyasha, and I'm sure there are plenty more as I haven't read anywhere close to every Shonen. Than there are certainly passable ones like YuYuHakusho.




Inuyasha I definitely disagree and FMA's ending was garbage. I enjoyed the series a lot but the ending was trash. They turned three awesome characters to peasants (HH, Scar, Roy) and the final fight was stupid apart from God and Father's talk (Which was fantastic). FoR I've never seen and YHH definitely trumps the first two mentioned.



Turrin said:


> Whether you enjoyed them or not does not define good writing. The inherent problem with those last 2 Arcs is that they were pointless story-telling wise. The entire story of Dragon-Ball was about collecting the Dragon-Balls and Goku winning the martial arts tournament. Both of these plots were resolved before Z. This renders Z largely pointless.



That's true that the original journey of collecting DragonBall's and competing in the tournaments was steered away from completely in Z although I think that was a good thing since that killed the repetitiveness in some aspects. I've read and seen a lot of people talking about the Cell and Boo Arc, and something to keep in mind that I agree with is the Z section as a whole is best to be looked at as Gohan's growth and development, despite it (his character) not ending the greatest and why Cell would of been fitting for that overall plot assumption.



Turrin said:


> What point did the story have other than hey they are fighting this new guy now? You can't have a functional story where there is no character Arc whatsoever for any character in the series and it's just fighting. And before you cite Vegata, honestly his character arc was completely in the Frieza Saga and the rest was just back tracking and than re-treading the growth he already displayed in that Arc.



It had a lot of consistently enjoyable minor plot points and devices with a great cast of characters. DragonBall had a more fluent and flowing not over the top story from start to finish where as the Z arcs were separate and still had good points to them with character development carrying over. I wouldn't say his character was only relevant and only good in the Freeza Arc. His entire development from Saiyan - Boo was great to watch. 




Turrin said:


> Wasn't any creative over the top story telling? Astro Boy says hi.



From the same magazine and genre yeah, and AB? Come on Turrin you can't say DB was completely about the next big bad and time to kill him then mention AB.. 



Turrin said:


> There were not Alien species. There were Mutants, which I accept as part of that world, because it was established to be so from the very starts. Goku himself wasn't an alien originally, he was based on the mythology, I.E. the Journey to the West's Monkey King, and basically fit into the overarching mythology of the series about their being Gods like Kami, Piccolo, etc... Not a single thing hinted at these characters being aliens, and rather everything pointed to them being Gods. Than out of nowhere it's like BTW they are actually aliens.
> 
> Basically for the same reason it would be silly for Kaguya to be an alien it was extremely silly for Goku and Piccolo to be aliens, because the world was built in a very specific way that does not lend itself to their randomly being aliens.



I don't know, not really sure I can understand your argument / hate with the idea of Goku / Piccolo being aliens. I mean the atmosphere and designs of the series along with all the hints screamed it. Even so it's not like it's surprising or stupid as Kaguya-hime and actually needed explanation.


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## Kiss (Nov 26, 2014)

Lol No. DBZ will always remain special and unforgettable in my heart. Same goes for my fav duo of all times goku & vegeta. My amusing and badass combo.  I owned many manga volumes whereas i own none of nardo.  DBZ will stay as a classic for me until forever, Naruto I'll forget soon.


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## Pirao (Nov 26, 2014)

Misha said:


> Is there a forum with more self loathing then Naruto forums
> 
> HxH universe is forgettable compared to Naruto universe. *Naruto has one of the best settings in a manga ever*.



That's a good point, Naruto's world is really awesome, too bad Kishi wasted its potential.


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## Turrin (Nov 26, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Inuyasha I definitely disagree and FMA's ending was garbage. I enjoyed the series a lot but the ending was trash. They turned three awesome characters to peasants (HH, Scar, Roy) and the final fight was stupid apart from God and Father's talk (Which was fantastic). FoR I've never seen and YHH definitely trumps the first two mentioned.


I don't know what you mean by turning the characters into peasants and I'm going to need an actual reason they were so bad, because while I don't think they are master pieces they are certainly well written endings.



> That's true that the original journey of collecting DragonBall's and competing in the tournaments was steered away from completely in Z although I think that was a good thing since that killed the repetitiveness in some aspects.


Not having Z at all could have also stopped this. 




> I've read and seen a lot of people talking about the Cell and Boo Arc, and something to keep in mind that I agree with is the Z section as a whole is best to be looked at as Gohan's growth and development, despite it (his character) not ending the greatest and why Cell would of been fitting for that overall plot assumption.


The Z section is really not Gohan's growth though. The first 3 Arcs are about the Origins of Goku and Piccolo. Than Toriyama seems to want to make it about Gohan more in Cell Saga, but than randomly switches it back to Goku in the Buu Saga, which just makes those two arcs look even more convoluted. 



> It had a lot of consistently enjoyable minor plot points and devices with a great cast of characters. DragonBall had a more fluent and flowing not over the top story from start to finish where as the Z arcs were separate and still had good points to them with character development carrying over..


Such as...because I can't think of any of the original cast that had any development. Except maybe Piccolo in the first 2 Arcs, slightly.



> I wouldn't say his character was only relevant and only good in the Freeza Arc. His entire development from Saiyan - Boo was great to watch


Vegata developed into a good character in the Frieza arc and we learned why he was evil in the first place. Cell and Buu served no point other than to be like, hey Vegata's going evil again, oh wait no he's not, oh you vegata.



> From the same magazine and genre yeah, and AB? Come on Turrin you can't say DB was completely about the next big bad and time to kill him then mention AB..


You wanted another example of a creative over the top series, so there you go Astro Boy, DBZ was not the first and I will not give it any points for that.



> don't know, not really sure I can understand your argument / hate with the idea of Goku / Piccolo being aliens. I mean the atmosphere and designs of the series along with all the hints screamed it..


Give me 3 things from Dragon Ball that screamed Goku was an alien. 



> Even so it's not like it's surprising or stupid as Kaguya-hime and actually needed explanation


Yeah it's actually more stupid, because it's better that Kishi left it ambiguous as to the origins of a Godlike figure such as Kaguya rather than explain it as aliens, which is the dumbest plot twist in the world.

-------------

I mean let's consider for a second what the fundamental story of Dragon-Ball:

"Dragon Ball (Japanese: ドラゴンボール Hepburn: Doragon Bōru?) is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. It was originally serialized in Weekly Shōnen Jump from 1984 to 1995, with the 519 individual chapters published into 42 tankōbon volumes by Shueisha. Dragon Ball was initially inspired by the classical Chinese novel Journey to the West. The series follows the adventures of the protagonist, Goku, from his childhood through adulthood as he trains in martial arts and explores the world in search of the seven orbs known as the Dragon Balls, which summon a wish-granting dragon when gathered. Along his journey, Goku makes several friends and battles a wide variety of villains, many of whom also seek the Dragon Balls."

This is the plot of the story. It's about 

1) Goku wanting to be the best martial artists by winning the world martial arts tournament
2) Journeying to collect the Dragon Balls
3) Fighting Villains who seek to use the Dragon Balls for Evil
4) Based on fantasy and magical elements from the story Journey to the west


All of that applies very nicely to Dragon-Ball. We watch Goku train to become the greatest martial artist which he eventually succeeds in doing by winning the final martial arts tournament. We also watch Goku journey accross the world and hunt down the dragon balls until he eventually found the God who created the balls and fought as well as defeated said God's evil half (Piccolo). The fantasy and magical elements maintain consistent throughout. 

Now along comes DBZ:

1) Goku wanting to be the best martial artists by winning the world martial arts tournament - He already accomplished this goal so there is absolutely no point to this. Martial arts techniques also basically don't matter anymore or exist in Z, heck they aren't even really practicing martial arts anymore just who has the bigger Ki Blasts.

2) Journeying to collect the Dragon Balls
3) Fighting Villains who seek to use the Dragon Balls for Evil


*Spoiler*: __ 



4) Based on fantasy and magical elements from the story Journey to the west


 - Nope it's all alien BS now.

2 and 3 are the only parts of the plot that endure, but only so far as the Frieza Saga. After the Frieza Saga they are also gone.

So literally none of the plots Dragon-Ball is based on even exist by the end of the third arc of Z. Martial Arts really isn't a thing anymore, Dragon Balls are not a big deal, and all the mythology and stuff is gone because they were just aliens. Combine this with all the supporting cast of characters from Dragon Ball becoming absolutely worthless strength wise, and literally no elements of the story actually remain besides Goku fighting.

Again it would be like if the the last 5 or so Arcs of Naruto, Naruto had only a bit of plot relevance in the first three and than was pretty much gone for the final two. The characters stop using Jutsu and just throw chakra at each other. Turns out all the magical elements of Naruto are just alien stuff. All the characters but Naruto are worthless strength wise to the point where they can just be chakra crushed.


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## TheGreen1 (Nov 26, 2014)

Pirao said:


> That's a good point, Naruto's world is really awesome, too bad Kishi wasted its potential.



It was inconsistent really. They had mostly modern technology, based off the fact that they had running electrical lines and televisions and such, but they didn't make much use of it. And Civilians not having guns... come on.


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## Shinryu (Nov 26, 2014)

Naruto will never top DBZ ever


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## MasterSitsu (Nov 26, 2014)

Naruto surpassed DBZ long ago during part 1. Hey, don't get me wrong I love me some DBZ but its outdated to hell and it relies on a plot of just action I guess back then they thought kids all had adhd and couldn't handle anything that did have explosions every 10 minutes.  Not to mention it did a far better job of its large cast even thow people bitch about it Naruto had better cooperation and teamwork between characters the war ark is proof of that. DBZ everyone that's not goku was standing shitting there pants when Goku or his son in the cell saga saved the day

and fuck I hate the argument that DBZ is better because " it never went beyond to tell a good story" that's like saying Mike Bay is a better director then Christopher Nolan because Bay transformers never went above cheesy action and EXPLOSIONS


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## Synthetickiller (Nov 26, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Naruto will never top DBZ ever




THIS.

In 10 years, people will still compare a shonen to DBZ.

In 10 years, will anyone really care about naruto enough to spawn MORE movies & video games?


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## Aazadan (Nov 26, 2014)

Synthetickiller said:


> THIS.
> 
> In 10 years, people will still compare a shonen to DBZ.
> 
> In 10 years, will anyone really care about naruto enough to spawn MORE movies & video games?



They probably will, due to the topic Naruto covered it's the sort of series that gets better with age.  It covers some very deep topics and that makes it age better, DBZ on the otherhand is very superficial which makes it age worse once you get past the explosions.


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## Muah (Nov 26, 2014)

i hope this thread gets aids.


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## JuicyG (Nov 26, 2014)

*Dragonball will forever be the greatest action anime of all time. The only close second is YYH*


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 26, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> They probably will, due to the topic Naruto covered it's the sort of series that gets better with age.  It covers some very deep topics and that makes it age better, DBZ on the otherhand is very superficial which makes it age worse once you get past the explosions.



I love how this not the case at all. Dragon Ball is 30 years old and is still widely celebrated. While Naruto attempts to cover some deeper matter it rarely succeeds in those pursuits. Naruto itself is not deep, it's quite superficial when you get down to it. It just attempts to cover that up with pseudo-philosophical waxing that ultimately crashes on itself when the writer puts himself into a corner because they were concepts he evidently has little understanding of.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 26, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> They probably will, due to the topic Naruto covered it's the sort of series that gets better with age.*  It covers some very deep topics and that makes it age better,* DBZ on the otherhand is very superficial which makes it age worse once you get past the explosions.




 Naruto explores "deep" and "philosophical" concepts, like punching people in the face until they inexplicably change their ways, I've heard everything now


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 26, 2014)

To be fair, pretty much every shounen has that theme.


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## Pirao (Nov 27, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> They probably will, due to the topic Naruto covered it's the sort of series that gets better with age.  It covers some very deep topics and that makes it age better, DBZ on the otherhand is very superficial which makes it age worse once you get past the explosions.





How can people be this delusional


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## shade0180 (Nov 27, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> They probably will, due to the topic Naruto covered it's the sort of series that gets better with age.  It covers some very deep topics and that makes it age better, DBZ on the otherhand is very superficial which makes it age worse once you get past the explosions.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 27, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> *Dragonball will forever be the greatest action anime of all time. The only close second is YYH*



You mean Saint Seiya ?

In the 80's Dragon Ball, Hokuto no Ken & Saint Seiya were the Big 3.


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## ChatraOrChakra (Nov 27, 2014)

WOW. all the DBZ fanboys damage control. 
DBZ is a very good show. for its time. but its very generic compared to Naruto.
sure we have a bunch of shitty fillers. but the meat of the potato is much better than DBZ


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 27, 2014)

To tell you the truth, The Dragon Ball ( DBZ included ) manga is 30 years old.

I'm going to talk numbers here.

Naruto just finished its run.
Naruto is at 205 000 000 manga sold.
Dragon Ball is at 250 000 000 15 years after its run.

Both numbers are worldwide.
Naruto sold better than Dragon Ball did during its original run.


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## Zyrax (Nov 27, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> To tell you the truth, The Dragon Ball ( DBZ included ) manga is 30 years old.
> 
> I'm going to talk numbers here.
> 
> ...


>Implying that how much you sell determinates the quality of the manga


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 27, 2014)

Zyrax said:


> >Implying that how much you sell determinates the quality of the manga



One Piece sure sucks, heh.


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## Pirao (Nov 27, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> To tell you the truth, The Dragon Ball ( DBZ included ) manga is 30 years old.
> 
> I'm going to talk numbers here.
> 
> ...



DBZ is still relevant 20 years after its end. Where's Naruto gonna be in 20 years? Take a wild guess.


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## Bruce Wayne (Nov 27, 2014)

Pirao said:


> DBZ is still relevant 20 years after its end. Where's Naruto gonna be in 20 years? Take a wild guess.



In 2nd place.


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## Overhaul (Nov 27, 2014)

Sailor Moon shits on both series.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 27, 2014)

Pirao said:


> DBZ is still relevant 20 years after its end. Where's Naruto gonna be in 20 years? Take a wild guess.



Instead of Dragon Ball of course.


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## Pirao (Nov 27, 2014)

Yagami1211 said:


> Instead of Dragon Ball of course.



Hmmm, what?


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## Aazadan (Nov 27, 2014)

Seto Kaiba said:


> I love how this not the case at all. Dragon Ball is 30 years old and is still widely celebrated. While Naruto attempts to cover some deeper matter it rarely succeeds in those pursuits. Naruto itself is not deep, it's quite superficial when you get down to it. It just attempts to cover that up with pseudo-philosophical waxing that ultimately crashes on itself when the writer puts himself into a corner because they were concepts he evidently has little understanding of.



Kishi definitely failed at times, and other times he doesn't go very deep into it but it's there.  It has the obvious concepts of war and peace but there's others too such as to what extent it's ok to just do as you're told as a soldier.  It wasn't always pulled off well but the series is better for the attempt, unlike say DBZ which didn't try to do any of that at all it was just pure action.


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## Aazadan (Nov 27, 2014)

Zyrax said:


> >Implying that how much you sell determinates the quality of the manga



If you take sales numbers away from DBZ what does it have?

I honestly wonder how many people have actually sat down and read the Dragon Ball manga sometime in the past couple years.  Even Bleach has more depth than it.

Edit: The one thing DBZ gave us that's truly great even though it's not from Toriyama is DBZ Abridged.  It gets some points just for that.


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## Zyrax (Nov 27, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> If you take sales numbers away from DBZ what does it have?
> 
> I honestly wonder how many people have actually sat down and read the Dragon Ball manga sometime in the past couple years.  Even Bleach has more depth than it.


Who gives a shit about depth when its entertaining


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## Aazadan (Nov 27, 2014)

Zyrax said:


> Who gives a shit about depth when its entertaining



Some people find enjoyment in reading something that's thought provoking.  Naruto does that.


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## Rios (Nov 27, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> Some people find enjoyment in reading something that's thought provoking.  Naruto does that.



WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?


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## Aazadan (Nov 27, 2014)

Rios said:


> WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?



Don't believe me?  Just think back at how many essays have been written here on characters, their motivations, the politics in their world, how it relates to ours, how it doesn't, and the relationships between characters.

If the series wasn't thought provoking you wouldn't have that type of reaction from its readers.


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## Inuhanyou (Nov 27, 2014)

Naruto. 

"serious thought provoking entertainment" 

What it tries to do, it fails in. 9 times out of 10 was just frustration for many readers for a long time. That's called failing at selling your appeal


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 27, 2014)

Rios said:


> WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?



He's right. Some people like that. Not making this up.


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## -Dargor- (Nov 27, 2014)




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## Aazadan (Nov 27, 2014)

It's the difference between a Michael Bay movie and something from a director like Orson Welles or Martin Scorsese.  They're both entertaining and I never said that DBZ isn't, but what gets remembered is what you can revisit years later and still get something out of beyond just the entertainment.  There is little reason to revisit DB once you've gone through it.

I realize there's a lot of people here that don't like Naruto (which is odd for a Naruto forum) but there's also a whole lot of people here that do like the series.


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## Shinryu (Nov 28, 2014)

Lmao DBZ is garbage when it comes to writing but gold when its to violence and entertainment.


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## Seto Kaiba (Nov 28, 2014)

Aazadan said:


> Kishi definitely failed at times, and other times he doesn't go very deep into it but it's there.  It has the obvious concepts of war and peace but there's others too such as to what extent it's ok to just do as you're told as a soldier.  It wasn't always pulled off well but the series is better for the attempt, unlike say DBZ which didn't try to do any of that at all it was just pure action.



No. This is a ridiculous argument. You don't award points for failed attempts. 

It's like I told Turrin, it would be like giving one chef more points for trying to make prime rib but fucking it up over one that made a curry that was simple, yet delicious. It's also like giving points to a skateboarder that tried fucked up a 900 and broke his neck than one that did a clean 360. If I can make it clearer. 

I'm not going to award points because it tried to touch upon those concepts, because it became abundantly clear the author had a horrendous understanding of them. As a consequence pushed forth horrible messages through botched execution.


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## ch1p (Nov 28, 2014)

Enough of this.

I skipped 10m of french class every time so I could watch DBZ in the cafeteria. It didn't matter if it was one of the twenty episodes where they just stared at each other. It didn't matter if it was FILLED TO THE BRIM with people doing the same thing, so much my wallet was stolen thrice in the confusion.

I would never do this for Naruto.


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## Elicit94 (Nov 28, 2014)

[youtube]-7ahOeWvSZo[/youtube]


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## ch1p (Nov 28, 2014)

the memories


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 28, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> [youtube]-7ahOeWvSZo[/youtube]



Dub is even more terrible than expected. ( Even in my own language. )



ch1p said:


> Enough of this.
> 
> I skipped 10m of french class every time so I could watch DBZ in the cafeteria. It didn't matter if it was one of the twenty episodes where they just stared at each other. It didn't matter if it was FILLED TO THE BRIM with people doing the same thing, so much my wallet was stolen thrice in the confusion.
> 
> I would never do this for Naruto.



Franchement, il y a vraiment de quoi ?tre d??u. Un tel comportement est inacceptable !!


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## Shakar (Nov 28, 2014)

> being such an obvious troll
> using "feels" outside tumblrrr



I don't know man.


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## Bruce Wayne (Nov 28, 2014)

Despite the failed attempts, the parts that Kishi succeeded in are infinitely better than anything Toriyama dished out. 



ch1p said:


> Enough of this.
> 
> I skipped 10m of french class every time so I could watch DBZ in the cafeteria. It didn't matter if it was one of the twenty episodes where they just stared at each other. It didn't matter if it was FILLED TO THE BRIM with people doing the same thing, so much my wallet was stolen thrice in the confusion.
> 
> I would never do this for Naruto.


If only people actually did this with actual quality series like JoJo, may be the world would be a better place.


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## Yagami1211 (Nov 28, 2014)

^This right here.
If people could remove their nostalgy glasses sometime.


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## Pirao (Nov 28, 2014)

Rios said:


> WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?



Naruto is thought provoking, alright.

It makes me think "How could a series with such a good part 1 could go South so fast?"

And also "What does the author think of human relations to make his characters make the retarded decisions they have made time after time?"


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## Zaelapolopollo (Nov 28, 2014)

Pirao said:


> And also "What does the author think of human relations to make his characters make the retarded decisions they have made time after time?"



Kinda like how everyone in Team Z said "ya know, how about we let Dr. Gero build those androids? We have 3 years to find him and stop him and save the world, but....nah."

DBZ was even more thought-provoking if you take it from that angle.


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## Escargon (Nov 28, 2014)

Shinryu said:


> Lmao DBZ is garbage when it comes to writing but gold when its to violence and entertainment.



Obito himself makes Dragonballs storyline seems like a masterpiece, dont you agree?


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## ice77 (Nov 28, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> [youtube]-7ahOeWvSZo[/youtube]





ch1p said:


> the memories



*Leave the memories alone.*


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## Shinryu (Nov 28, 2014)

Escargon said:


> Obito himself makes Dragonballs storyline seems like a masterpiece, dont you agree?



Obito was a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) who was friendzoned, went batshit nuts, and decided to make an organization to imprison everyone in his dream reality with dream Rin so there can be peace for him because life without Rin aint worth living for this psycho ass muthafucker.The things Obito did as Tobi make him a better villain than Cell or Buu since the dude psychologically fucked Naruto twice and made him lose his resolve.The only DBZ villain that is as good as Obito is Frieza the best DBZ villain as he was the only naturally evil asshole that had logical reasons behind his madness.

I mean Cell wanted to nuke the Earth because he had nothing better to do and Buu was an omnicidal lunatic that did it because he was created to do it instead of his own free will but seeing how primal Kid Buu was I doubt he had a semblance of a will to begin with.Even the motives of movie villains are sometimes stupid as hell.Bills wants to blow up the Solar System because Buu ate his pudding surely an actual cosmic entity wouldnt even act like this to begin with.Bills interest in saiyans is also stupid as they wouldnt have even existed for a fraction of the time he existed which is possibly billions of years tbh.


Still is much better than DBZ's hurr durr

Strong something shows up
Deus Ex Machima powerup beat strong something
Dragonballs make everything happy
Rinse and Repeat.

On the otherhand Naruto villains actually do have motives and werent created to be evil unless you count the Uchihas being genetic nutjobs but that was a retcon so this means.

Itachi was a psychotic nut who killed his clan for the lolz
Nagato made the Akatsuki to create peace by scaring the world into stopping war or having their country nuked
Orochimaru was just an amoral ninja scientist who wanted to destroy Konoha due to butthurt of not being Hokage
Danzo did everything because he wanted to make Konoha succeed and couldnt give a shit about morals
Madara did all he did because he wanted to become God
Gatou was just a gang boss
Zabuza was just a natural psycho
Shinju just wants his chakra back that humans stole

All better than these

Cell wants to prove he is the perfect being by challenging beings vastly below him in power on a piece of matter his finger could destroy.
Buu wants to kill everything that exist in the universe.
But wait they were created to do this amirite?


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## Skilatry (Nov 28, 2014)

Literally cannot believe the amount of people who think DBZ was in any way, shape, or form good. Can't tell if anime/manga fans are hipsters, really do have incredibly shit taste or are a combination of the two.


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## Klue (Nov 28, 2014)

Titanosaurus said:


> one of his biggest strengths, dude they were amazing


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## Elicit94 (Nov 28, 2014)

Skilatry said:


> Literally cannot believe the amount of people who think DBZ was in any way, shape, or form good. Can't tell if anime/manga fans are hipsters, really do have incredibly shit taste or are a combination of the two.


Honestly, someone like me probably needs to be exposed to more manga/anime.

Why don't you give some really good suggestions?


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## Justice (Nov 28, 2014)

Still ain't JoJo and that's just your opinion bruh.


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## pimpnamedslipback (Nov 28, 2014)

DBZ set the stage, should be enough to be called untouchable.


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## auem (Nov 29, 2014)

Elicit94 said:


> YuYu Hakusho > DBZ > Naruto



Naruto>DBZ>Yu Yu Hakusho>>>HxH


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## Jυstin (Nov 29, 2014)

The thing is that Dragonball Z never pretended to be anything more than what it was.

Naruto tried, and for a while was something more, but when it started to emulate DBZ, it just came off as pretentious and utterly hollow in the meaning and message it had established in the first place.

On top of the animation going to utter shit.

This is why DBZ holds up _so much_ better.


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## kidgogeta (Nov 29, 2014)

LOL. No. Sorry. OP? No.

For it's time DBZ was the undisputed greatest. 

HxH would be the new best battle manga of all time assuming it's ever finished. By battle manga I mean anything that uses anything similar to KI and heavy usage of martial arts. 

One Piece is the current top dog of manga in general. Sales don't lie. 

Naruto, to be frank, isn't the best in any category. Fights, romance, comedy,art ,etc. It's just a relatively good manga.


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## ZE (Nov 29, 2014)

I grew up watching dragon ball (and saint seiya) when I didnt even know what manga was. I just knew that shit was awesome. I even missed class so I could watch the episodes in the morning. It's been so many years and I still love db to death. For me it's the best thing ever, so much that I'm not afraid of telling any chick I date that one of my main interests is dragon ball. If she finds it childish, I don't give a shit. She can be the hottest chick ever, if she doesn't like dragon ball, she can suck my cock and get the hell out of my life, I don't give a damn. 

Although Naruto cannot come even close to db in my heart, I still have to recognize it was thanks to naruto that I found out what anime was. Part one gave me the dragon ball feeling. I'd never be into other animes if it weren't for Naruto, because Naruto made me realize there were other cartoons with the same entertainment value as dragon ball. Before Naruto, I'd tell my otaku friends that I didn't want to know what anime was, dragon ball was all I needed. But then came the words: "this shit is as great as dragon ball". To which I replied, "I'll give it a try." First episode, result: I was hooked. 

And after these years, I came to the conclusion: one piece is the closest thing to dragon ball you'll find.


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## DSTREET45 (Nov 29, 2014)

auem said:


> Naruto>DBZ>Yu Yu Hakusho>>>HxH



YYH>/=DB>>Naruto IMO


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## Weapon (Nov 29, 2014)

DSTREET45 said:


> YYH=DBZ (until Andriod Saga)>>Naruto IMO



BS

DragonBall (Son Goku - Cell Arc) = HNK > 
Saint Seiya = JoJo
Naruto = Toriko = YYH >
Hunter x Hunter(HE - GI) = One Piece (RD - W7 Arc) >
Bleach = D-Gray Man > Shaman King


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 29, 2014)

So it comes down to people now who were entertained by DBZ when they were 7-10 arguing with people who now are 7-10 now who say Naruto is better. Hmmm...


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## Weapon (Nov 29, 2014)

BurningVegeta said:


> So it comes down to people now who were entertained by DBZ when they were 7-10 arguing with people who now are 7-10 now who say Naruto is better. Hmmm...



I'm actually re-watching DragonBall and it's as enjoyable now as it was reading and watching as a Kid. I do agree though, some of the arguments and debates being thrown around in here you would think they're by 10 year old kids.


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