# Sora(Kingdom Hearts) vs Dante(Devil May Cry)



## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 24, 2010)

Restrictions: The Only Drive form Sora can use is "Master"

No Time Freeze, from Sora, or Dante.

Sora CANNOT use Reflega.

EDIT: NO OUTSIDE HELP!!!(EDIT: I WAS MAINLY REFERRING TO SUMMONINGS, LIKE GENIE)


Location:

EDIT: Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Starting Distance: 12 Yards(36 Feet)

How does this go?


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 24, 2010)

Hasn't this been done before?


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 24, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> 1) Why not just make it the default location, the hyperbolic time chamber? That goes on forever.
> 
> 2) Okay, that's a strange starting distance.
> 
> 3) I must say awesome matchup, but I could sooner pick a favorite child (since I don't have any) than to pick a side



1.) Eh, Okay, The Hyperbolic Time Chamber was pretty epic.

2.) ??? eh, Howcome?


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## cnorwood (Aug 24, 2010)

summon genie,  GG dante


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 24, 2010)

cnorwood said:


> summon genie,  GG dante



Read the OP

No Outside help.


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## C. Hook (Aug 24, 2010)

Madara42 said:


> Hasn't this been done before?



It has.**


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 24, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> normally distances are in increments of 5 (1o m, 20 yds, etc...)



Oh. Okay. 


Anyways, who wins this anybody?


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## cnorwood (Aug 24, 2010)

sora speedblitz


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 24, 2010)

cnorwood said:


> sora speedblitz



Hey, I think Sora will take this as well. But not som much as a "Speedblitz" Dante will put up a fight at least.


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## Devil Kings (Aug 25, 2010)

Jackpot, and Sora's dead.


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## Emperor Joker (Aug 25, 2010)

DemonFoxSlayer said:


> Read the OP
> 
> No Outside help.



Summoning is not outside help. it's a legitimate part of his moveset


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## noobthemusical (Aug 25, 2010)

Wasn't this done before with the conclusion of Unless Sora uses Genie he losses?


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## Enclave (Aug 25, 2010)

this has been done before, you can even see the outcome of it in the obd wiki.  Sora won.



noobthemusical said:


> Wasn't this done before with the conclusion of Unless Sora uses Genie he losses?



Based on what I've seen of Dante thus far?  No, Sora doesn't require Genie to win.


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 25, 2010)

wtf, yes he does. No way does Sora win this without Genie


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## Enclave (Aug 25, 2010)

~Avant~ said:


> wtf, yes he does. No way does Sora win this without Genie



Get back to me when Dante starts batting skyscrapers around like they were baseballs.


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## Falco-san (Aug 25, 2010)

Enclave said:


> Get back to me when Dante starts batting skyscrapers around like they were baseballs.



This.
As much as I hate to admit it, Sora outclasses Dante in terms of power.


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## killfox (Aug 25, 2010)

Sora wins this. Even in base he is a beast with a bunch of crazy spells, massive strength, and speed (able to run up the side of buildings etc). He can teleport, and other crazy stuff hes shown with reaction comands (even though reaction commands are game mechanics it still shows what sora is capible of)

On top of that you gave sora master form which is his 2nd strongest....ya Sora kills dante here.


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 25, 2010)

Those are hardly skyscrappers. more like small buildings. Look at the size of the demons Dante casually solo's. Get outta here


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

withouth genie dante wins. if he can cut the hell's gate, that is as big as a skycraper but it's made of demonic stone, or something like that, from 200 m away, it means that he could destroy skycrapers better than sora.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Dante was also able to run up the side of a building (or was it down) either way he was able to maintain his running and not simply just fall.
> 
> As for the buildings, you have to play the game, they are skyscrapers, the buildings he is using are those skyscrapers you see at the beginning of "The World That Never Was" it's just they were cut into about halves.
> 
> However Dante has also fought skyscraper sized demons, admittedly he doesn't "bat them around like baseballs" but he does hand them their ass quite handily.



He ran down the side of Temini-gru and drove up it on Lady's bike. As for the Skyscrapers.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic2ZUGhLVKQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

anyway dante is faster. at very very very very least hypersonic+.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 25, 2010)

I've often wondered why those were called "Sky scrapers" when they are far from it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 25, 2010)

Madara42 said:


> I've often wondered why those were called "Sky scrapers" when they are far from it.





> A skyscraper is a tall, continuously habitable building. There is no official definition or height above which a building may clearly be classified as a skyscraper. Most cities define the term empirically; even a building of 80 meters (262 feet) may be considered a skyscraper if it protrudes above its built environment and changes the overall skyline


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

how could I put a video?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 25, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> how could I put a video?



Click the youtube button during posts and you get this

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

Just put the link in between.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 25, 2010)

The things Sora slices up certainly aren't Sky Scrapers. They seem more like average buildings. 

Just sayin'.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQLRXCEXHtU[/YOUTUBE]

0:10


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

well, he was toyng all the time. so his dmc4 feats weren't "real".


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 25, 2010)

Those are what we call casual feats.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

so dante's a casual skycraper buster, isn't he?


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## Falco-san (Aug 25, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> anyway dante is faster. at very very very very least hypersonic+.


They're both hypersonic+


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

just look at the raindrop feat. is there any calc for that?


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Sora. Tanks buildings to the face, effortlessly slices through city blocks, tanks atmospheric re-entry and has hypersonicness to his side


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Sonic Blade is a low level strike for sora.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

How's that him not going all out and having fun?

He's constantly screaming "nhyah, yyaah, nhyu"


It's hardly like he's constantly repeating this feat


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

dante is mach 10+ when he's in his early 20 (the towerdive feat).so that's at his weakest. he can casually slice a thing as big as a skycraper (something like 100-200 meters tall) from a great distance. he can create shockwawes with his swords, teleport, create the "doppelganger" (his clone), and he is invulnerable with dreadnaught. with devil trigger he becomes all-rounded better. he's like 4-5 times faster, stronger, and all


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Final Form > Devil Trigger


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

majin form>dreadnaught>Final Form >/= Devil Trigger


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

majin form can fire energy beams, fly, it's got 2 twin energy blades, an higher regen...


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

if sora uses reflega dante can use his bareer or dreadnaught


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

there are only game mechanichs for the barrier. it's strong enough to block a saviour kick or punch, and his dark beams. it becomes stronger while in D.T.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

game mechanichs in dmc series aren't good, because all the charachters and weapons are weacker than they actually are in cutscenes. in dmc4 novel, anyway, dreadnaught tanks the giant beam, from the saviour. I don't know if it's in canon


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> It's a ki-ai basically added for effect. You see this alot in the anime versions of casual feats from manga, of course there are the super casual feats where they don't make a sound and still rip their opponent a new ass-hole.



Ki-hiais are essentially chi focusing techniques to add power you don't normally have, but I seriously doubt the school of Kung-Fu is something they factor in DMC



> Also I thought one time feats were fair game in OBD, if not then alot of anime fan's just lost alot of their arguments. You know so long as
> they weren't gag feats.


Depends on context. If it completely breaks something that has always been shown for no particularly good reason, then it's an inconsistency and gets thrown out


For example, once in a while you'll see a supersonic spider man feat without Spider-Sense and wonder where the hell did that come from, but it has been established that spidey constantly holds back so we acept it.
But if you see him punching Firelord into submission, then it gets thrown out into space because that's an ass pulled inconsistency.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

although while it definitely might help to establish context no feats from the KH manga are accepted in an OBD match unless allowed by the OP.
So if you don't know why something has happened or if it's something you should normally expect from the characters, but the manga clearly explains it so, then level headed people can reach a compromise.

You can't take feats from the manga though. And it's all about the feats


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

anyway dante can block a strong punch from the saviour even withouth barrier


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

> Is that Game mechanics again



no, it's a cutscene


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

That's not even Gaia titan level, let alone full force Hercules.



And he hardly knocked him. Dante dodged and got somehow off screen ontop that roof top a few hundred feet away


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

You sure? I'm pretty sure you're forced to fight God mode hercules at some point


Well, there is a fight where he says "Wow, and I didn't even hold back" in a battle where he's creating God Auras just by flexing his pecs, but in that fight, he's clearly jerking your around, stopping to flex his muscles and summoning barrels for you to throw at him


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Kingdom Hearts I before he locks the Colosseum Key Hole, so it's definitely canon to the story.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

From his mouth, yes, but the battle isn't his most impressive. Him shaking the foundations of Hell was more badass.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Although there is something to be said about a main who can Aurafuck you by flexing his pecs alone


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

am I the only one who thinks dante wins?


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

yes but sora can't keep up with dante (mach10+ at his weakest, can slice skycrapers from great distances, invulnerability with dreadnaught, doppelganger and all....I know KH is powerful but not so powerful)


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

> As for speed where do we get mach 10?



there's a calc for it in the meta dome. it's the tower dive feat. there's a mach 15 calc too, for the raindrop feat. but I can't find it.


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## Enclave (Aug 25, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> just look at the raindrop feat. is there any calc for that?



Dante being faster than Sora is highly debatable.  In fact if you include a certain feat that people love to ignore then you can actually difinitively say that Sora is faster than Dante and by a good margin.

Anyways, sure Dante could slice up a skyscraper, but like I said, get back to me when he can bat them around like baseballs.

Nobody has denied Dante being insanely awesome and I'm sure most everybody in the thread would agree he's more badass and awesome than Sora.  That doesn't dismiss the fact that Dante doesn't quite have feats on the same level as Sora, especially in the strength department.

Sora also has a far higher durability, but Dante largely makes up for that with his incredible regeneration.


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## Wutani (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> As for speed where do we get mach 10? in anime people have created sonic blades as low as mach 1 (ninja scroll)
> .



The Mach 10 is probably from the tower dive feat or the Raindrop Feat. I don't remember which one.

Dante is also calced at a comfortable Mach 7.

Sora should have the strength advantage, but Dante did block a punch thrown by Savior. Judging by his size he should have some ridiculous force behind his blows.

Dante isn't allowed Time Stop, but he could still use Quicksilver which is a time slow .


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## MisterShin (Aug 25, 2010)

Yo dis is some sick combat speed, it is almost like a time stop, but is not a time stop.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_1kETIVweo[/YOUTUBE]

I think Dante wins this.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 25, 2010)

I noticed a lot of people don't accept game-mechanics from DMC, but they do from KH. I don't remember a single cutscene where Sora took a hit from Hercules.

Just sayin'.


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## Dogescartes (Aug 25, 2010)

Even banning Reflega or time stop, Sora is too broken even for Dante.


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## zenieth (Aug 25, 2010)

But those two are not one and the same.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Not using game mechanics here, using the fact that he beat them in combat for the story, hence why I'm not bringing up the actual attacks Hercules used against Sora in game. Just the sheer fact that he won against a half-god who has the aura of a full fledged god, and a rock titan. Then we take the feats from the disney hercules movie and viola.



Either way, Herc did chuck the Rock Titan all the way into the stratosphere, he's still rediculous.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWWDeZ6uMA4[/YOUTUBE]

0:00 - 0:25


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## Enclave (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> And what feat would this be good sir?



4:15-4:53


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

which has been further away


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 25, 2010)

Those lasers do not look FTL...


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

They suffer from the Star Wars Blaster Syndrom, for the first part, but you can notice that at the end they are simply just too fast for you to block them manually so computer sora takes over and blocks them FTL offscreen..
It's just the one bit of interactiveness on acount of videogame-age.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 25, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> They suffer from the Star Wars Blaster Syndrom, for the first part, but you can notice that at the end they are simply just too fast for you to block them manually so computer sora takes over and blocks them FTL offscreen..
> It's just the one bit of interactiveness on acount of videogame-age.



Even though it's an omnidirectional attack and they're deflecting them in bunches.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

What can I say? Power of the Keyblade.
That's why I like The Theory so much


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## Omnirix (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> The disney canon is canon to the entire disney multiverse, which includes the disney multiverses in KH. In KH you go to separate verses which allows you to enter the canon of a disney verse, thus it's generally accepted that you can use disney feats for disney characters.
> 
> Besides that I am pretty sure basch71 just raped this thread.



The KH canon and the Disney Canon are separate. Cuz obviously Cloud and Zack or Auron never belonged to Disney and never showed up in the move and animated series. Same can be said that Square never owned Tron and it doesn't take place in a world called Radiant Garden.


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## Omnirix (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> they're all seperate universes that are connected via KH, I didn't say it was canon to FF, I said *Disney canon is canon to all Disney multiverses*, However only parts of the game take place in Disney multiverses, while the rest are original to KH.
> 
> Also play through KH2 again, Radiant Gardens was only the place where the Program was. You actually go into the digital world of space paranoids when you do the Tron missions


Here's another thing, there's no such thing as "verses" in the KH verse. They are refered to as "worlds". If its a parallel-verse, why would Goofy point up to the stars/worlds and say and say "look a star is going off" and then it went off? Correct my astronomy but a verse does not look like a star.

My point was that while KH is part of the Disney franchise/multiverse, its separate from the original verses which is the original canon. The fact that you see examples such as Sora teaming up with Jack Sparrow while it didn't happen in the movie proved that this is a separate story than its original form. 

And Tron the 1982 movie took place during modern earth with a company called ENCOM. Not in the DTD or Hollow Bastion mainframe.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 25, 2010)

In their own worlds though, they encounter Heartless/Nobodies. As in, something not in Disney canon.


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## Omnirix (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> That is semantics, all these worlds are completely separated and so far the only way to travel to other worlds is using a gummi ship or ripping reality a new one.
> 
> Alternate timeline/universe. Of course Sora isn't going to show up in a disney franchise movie. Sora himself is not part of the canon, let's make this the third time I have said it, only disney characters are canon to disney. Quit bringing up Sora and FF characters who I have already said have nothing to do with disney canon.
> 
> Again this is semantics.



That's what I said. Except I thought you were the one who brought that up


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## Omnirix (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> I may have, by accident, what I was trying to say all along is pretty much what I said up there though.
> The point being is they still keep the feats especially since KH2  runs away from Sora interacting with the origianl disney plot and creates comepltely new scenarios for them to deal with, with having the events from disney canon still having taken place.
> 
> *edit* I never said Sora or FF was canon to KH that was you who was trying to imply that I was. I went back and checked my posts.



But I still think they're not the same. Unless you would believe that Sora is a lot more powerful than we thought he was for canonically beating KH Jafar who is much more powerful than KH Genie who is "supposedly" the same as Disney Genie who spun the earth like a basketball.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=led2jJyATHg[/YOUTUBE]

he reacts to Blitz, who has lightning speed.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmBOOL-5I9E[/YOUTUBE]

1:35 dante deflects a laser with a stare


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R37XQEG1iQA[/YOUTUBE]

only game mechanichs and a little cutscene in the middle of the legendary battle


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

1) Larxene has better feats, not to mention he failled at it.
2) How's that a laser?
3) final form>devil trigger
And if that video was allowed, then we'dd pull summoning gummy ships into this match, and boy would that be a rape.


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## NECROFANTASIA (Aug 25, 2010)

well it kind of seems to me that sora is a tiny ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".), and if my understanding of his personality based on yaoi fanfiction is correct, he has a weakness for dudes with white hair

on the other hand, by the end of the third game dante is so annoying that the entire universe wants him to be dead

therefore this is a difficult and close match


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

1) it's lightning! and he can block a lightning 
2) we don't know mundus' attack speed, but neither xemnas' laser speed. it seems to be slower than the raindrop feat, so <mach15
3) I posted the video 'cause the legendary battle is cool


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 25, 2010)

Final Form is also a game mechanic.


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## NECROFANTASIA (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> 1) And he completely misses him
> 
> 2) Those aren't lasers they're energy beams made of demon energy their speed and damage is unknown
> 
> 3) This one is mostly worthless, we already knew he could fly and shoot energy blasts in devil trigger



But given that Sora was made by Square Enix and is therefore a creature straight from the bowels of hell, wouldn't his attacks also be demonic in nature.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

the fact that you double weild and get power up to strength and reactive defense isn't.


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## NECROFANTASIA (Aug 25, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Well you read Yaoi fanfiction (apparently) so your opinion is pretty much moot.
> 
> Also please change your sig so it doesn't autostart when the page louds, that is 10 tons of gay in the ass.



Oh, sure. Because you guys are fans of Kingdom Fucking Hearts for reasons other than the potential for slashing Mickey Mouse with a small child.

i believe you implicitly


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

Do you think about mickey slash alot Necro?


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## Omnirix (Aug 25, 2010)

Madara42 said:


> Final Form is also a game mechanic.



No its not. Its part of Sora's clothes arsenal where he transforms into different forms like the lion form whenever he ventures into different worlds. And he transformed into Valor form during a cutscene so its not a game mechanic.


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## Enclave (Aug 25, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> 1) it's lightning! and he can block a lightning



Sora's blocked lightning as well.  Hell, he did it the first time he ever fought Xemnas back in KH1 FM.



> 2) we don't know mundus' attack speed, but neither xemnas' laser speed. it seems to be slower than the raindrop feat, so <mach15



It seems slower than the raindrop feat due to what?  Your own opinion?  We're told that the lasers are lasers, lasers only have 1 speed.  Rain's maximum velocity is terminal velocity which isn't even remotely close to the speed of a laser.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 25, 2010)

what? lasers haven't got 1 speed. neither light nor lightning. nothing has 1 speed


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> what? lasers haven't got 1 speed. neither *light *nor lightning. nothing has 1 speed



No, there's one thing that has an universal constant of speed.


Take a wild guess at which one.


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## Banhammer (Aug 25, 2010)

then you're changing light's linear vector, crossing it so many times within itself it reacts as a particle and self gives a traffic jam of photons
Within itself it's still traveling at SOL


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## DemonFoxSlayer (Aug 25, 2010)

Emperor Joker said:


> Summoning is not outside help. it's a legitimate part of his moveset



Thats is what I was specifically reffering to, when I said "No Outside Help" Guess I Should make it clearer.


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## cnorwood (Aug 25, 2010)

wth?????? sora uses the keyblade and unlocks his asshole and literally rapes him
/thread


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## noobthemusical (Aug 26, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> True but technically it can be slowed down or sped up



Not really Speed is Distance over time all examples of supposed light slowing have actually been increasing the distance light has to travel.


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## Dariustwinblade (Aug 26, 2010)

Dante uses Alestor, speed blitzes with a lightning speed, lightning stinger.


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## Enclave (Aug 26, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Dante uses Alestor, speed blitzes with a lightning speed, lightning stinger.



Because lightning is faster than light right?


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## ~Avant~ (Aug 26, 2010)

Omg we're not doing that fucking laser debate again are we?


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## SasuOna (Aug 26, 2010)

when did Sora become FTL? I'm lost I know in his fight with Xemnas he was blocking lasers but that was not accepted because it was a gameplay mechanic even though it happened during a quicktime.


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## Enclave (Aug 26, 2010)

~Avant~ said:


> Omg we're not doing that fucking laser debate again are we?



It's not like you or anybody else who hates that feat has ever managed to come up with a satisfactory explanation for why we should ignore what the game itself says.



SasuOna said:


> when did Sora become FTL? I'm lost I know in his fight with Xemnas he was blocking lasers but that was not accepted because it was a gameplay mechanic even though it happened during a quicktime.



Reaction commands are essentially mini-cutscenes.  If Sora does something in a reaction command then it's something he's capable of doing and deflecting those lasers was done via reaction commands.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 26, 2010)

dante teleports+stinger (in dmc4 a weak stinger's shockwawe created an explosion)


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## Dariustwinblade (Aug 26, 2010)

Let not forget lightning fast with alestor. And has shown to tank multi block busting attacks from abigale.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 26, 2010)

yes, sora is strong and powerful, but dante is too


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 26, 2010)

and the lightning speed feat from dante?


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 26, 2010)

> he in fact misses Blitz



i mean when dante blocked blitz attack. how fast is it?


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## SasuOna (Aug 26, 2010)

More like 1/3 as fast as if anyone would care about the lightning dodging which is pure BS anyway.


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## Wutani (Aug 26, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Lightning travels at most 50%c lightning is not sol, so dante is at best 1/2 as fast. Besides I already debunked that feat, he in fact misses Blitz.



He may have missed Blitz, but he sure as shit reacted to him.


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## Wutani (Aug 26, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Lightning doesn't have a set speed dumbass, it moves in between 33%c to 50% c which is why I said *at most 50%c*. Honestly how long does it take to google this shit when you don't know?
> 
> True he did react to him, but seeing as he missed that still puts him below lightning timing.



True but the mere fact that he could approach Blitz swing his sword and almost hit him, puts him slightly slower than him.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 26, 2010)

we only know dmc3 dante's speed (mach 15)


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## Wutani (Aug 26, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Yeah, I probably should have said just below lightning timing, instead of merely saying below.



Meh, its hardly a massive difference. 

Although for the story to progress you need to actually beat Blitz, regardless of whether or not it happened in a cutscene, therefore Dante bested a creature that is as fast as lightning.


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## Knight (Aug 26, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Who's to say he didn't do what Dante normally does, let the guy pierce him through the stomach and then fuck his shit up when he can't get his arm out? Just sayin.
> 
> Still Sora has the laser feat which so far the only "dis-proof" was, "Sora isn't SOL because I don't want him to be." It wasn't said so plainly like that, but essentially it's what it boiled down to


Most fictions have "lazers" that move slower than actual lazers.


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## Knight (Aug 26, 2010)

I haven't play KH 2 in a while but when where they called lazers?


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 26, 2010)

Knight said:


> I haven't play KH 2 in a while but when where they called lazers?



I don't think they were.


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## Omnirix (Aug 26, 2010)

Its weird how they assume Xemnas' attacks are really lasers than Mundus'.


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## Ky Hakubi (Aug 26, 2010)

Game help tips call them lasers, so it's unlikely to be hyperbole. Sora reflecting them would put him AT LEAST lightspeed reaction. 

I can't think of a thing putting Dante in that speed category.

Given Dante's freakish durability, it'll just take Sora a good bit of time to whittle him down. Best outcome in Dante's favor is a stalemate, assuming he regens faster than Sora can hack at him. If not....


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 26, 2010)

Enclave said:


> It's not like you or anybody else who hates that feat has ever managed to come up with a satisfactory explanation for why we should ignore what the game itself says.
> 
> 
> 
> Reaction commands are essentially mini-cutscenes.  If Sora does something in a reaction command then it's something he's capable of doing and deflecting those lasers was done via reaction commands.



Wtf? A few years back I crushed you, AFK, and Zetta on this very debate, and I proved you all wrong.

I aint doing this shit again.


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 26, 2010)

~Avant~ said:


> Wtf? A few years back I crushed you, AFK, and Zetta on this very debate, and I proved you all wrong.
> 
> I aint doing this shit again.



If you meant this thread
Link removed
Then technically you didn't do anything with all due respect 


Anyhow, shouldn't we consider the possibility that those "lasers" are simply not SOL? Because those are not beams. They appear to be condensed and have mass. Sides, we wouldn't also want to consider OP's lasers as SOL because of the word "laser" would we?


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 26, 2010)

Oh yeah, 2008. When the  smiley was the total rage.


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 26, 2010)

Heroic Trunks said:


> If you meant this thread
> Link removed
> Then technically you didn't do anything with all due respect
> 
> ...



I don't recall anything suggesting that they have mass...

As far as OP lasers, someone calling a beam a laser doesn't make it such. In KH2, however, it is a game tip, not a character, calling them lasers. I'm inclined to believe that that makes them lasers.


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 26, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> I don't recall anything suggesting that they have mass...
> 
> As far as OP lasers, someone calling a beam a laser doesn't make it such. In KH2, however, it is a game tip, not a character, calling them lasers. I'm inclined to believe that that makes them lasers.



 I thought they got mass because they're projectiles. Aren't laser blasts not the same as laser beams? 

And if its a game tip, wouldn't that counts as game mechanics and doesn't count? :


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 26, 2010)

Heroic Trunks said:


> I thought they got mass because they're projectiles. Aren't laser blasts not the same as laser beams?
> 
> And if its a game tip, wouldn't that counts as game mechanics and doesn't count? :



I think 'blast' denotes a short burst, whereas 'beam' implies sustained force.

As far as the game tip being mechanics, it's no different from other tutorial help windows saying 'do X to avoid/block/deflect/achieve Y'. It's just stating 'These are lasers. If you don't want to get pwned, use the indicated key to reflect them'.

Also, 100th post


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 26, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> I think 'blast' denotes a short burst, whereas 'beam' implies sustained force.


 But those lasers aren't beams. 



Ky Hakubi said:


> As far as the game tip being mechanics, it's no different from other tutorial help windows saying 'do X to avoid/block/deflect/achieve Y'. It's just stating 'These are lasers. If you don't want to get pwned, use the indicated key to reflect them'.
> 
> Also, 100th post



But since when does "game action narration" holds any relevance to substantial in-verse facts? It can be considered as an off-verse trope. Correct me if I am wrong but in pokemon whenever you cast thunderbolt the game said "Pokemon X cast Thunderbolt!" It doesn't mean that that attack itself is a real thunderbolt. I see the same thing in here.



1234567890 said:


> He wasn't throwing them with his hand's xemnas was completely offscreen for that.
> 
> I thought that reaction commands were allowed, being as they automatically took control of sora and did the actions like a mini CG, basically showing off the Keyblade's time-space fuckery. Because he teleports for quite a few RC's, and can achieve limited flight with Reversal, one allows you to grab water, summon cogsworth, bullet time, etc...
> 
> and this may be a false memory but hasn't fodder dodged these supposed lasers in OP. I have never been able to make it past the first volume, but I thought I saw it in a thread, which is why OP lasers aren't SOL. In this case we have the two of the top tiers with weapons that let them *bend reality.*



Yes but to what extend? Because you still got Sora fighting on the level of people who weren't FTL.


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 26, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> well considering the fact that there is no such thing as a *thunder*bolt IRL, I think we can say that it's not a *lightning* bolt


Okay you got me on that exp. But my point still remains that it can still be considered as an off-verse act since its directing its message to the player not to the verse itself. 



1234567890 said:


> also IRL there is no such thing as a laserblast so we have nothing to compare it to, however lasers move at at least sol unless slowed down by outside means.
> *edit* almost forgot. 1k


We can't consider it as SOL without considering everything else. Like I said, people who aren't FTL are fighting against Sora. Which correspond to the fact that you got non-FTLers like Luffy and Iva dodging so called "lasers" in OP.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 27, 2010)

Heroic Trunks said:


> We can't consider it as SOL without considering everything else. Like I said, people who aren't FTL are fighting against Sora. Which correspond to the fact that you got non-FTLers like Luffy and Iva dodging so called "lasers" in OP.



Didn't they just aim-dodged Kuma's lasers?


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 27, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> that one kinda linked back to my other posts
> 
> 
> 
> Namely the part about keyblades letting them bend time and space, they're not quite at the level of warping IMO, more like a light bending of the universe here and there. They can after all seal off/open up other dimensions under special circumstances.



Even if their reality warping allow them SOL or FTL of some sort. It makes no sense because they never done it before in all their other previous fights. They are either FTL or not. 



basch71 said:


> Didn't they just aim-dodged Kuma's lasers?


This isn't aim dodge. 
Link removed



1234567890 said:


> Wait, ya'al are talking about Kuma, I hate to tell you bra, But lasers don't explode when they make contact.


You just dug your own grave then. Those lasers in Xemnas' final cutscene explode upon contact with Sora and Riku if you fail to press triangle and X.


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 27, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Do they now?  I've never seen anyone miss a single one, none of the youtube videos and no one I've ever seen play it. Even noobs can do that part on Hard. could you post a vid? I'm not playing all the way through KH2 again for a a debate over teh nets


Yes I tried it on what happened if I never press anything and they do explode.
A vid on top of my head right now watch 3:48 
blitzed R2 Ulquiorra.

EDIT: This is a better one
blitzed R2 Ulquiorra.
4:25


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 27, 2010)

Heroic Trunks said:


> If you meant this thread
> Link removed
> Then technically you didn't do anything with all due respect
> 
> ...



Nah we debated in another thread, I believe it was Haseo vs. Sora.


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 27, 2010)

If he's not SOL, Dante's chances just got a lot better...


----------



## ~Avant~ (Aug 27, 2010)

I had the same arguement, laser's dont explode. They're more than likely laser bolts, which travel a lot slower than light


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 27, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVtVkmTQbxY&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

1:12

It's pretty fast, isn't it? to do something like this they should hit the rain dozens of times per second, or so.


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 27, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVtVkmTQbxY&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> 1:12
> 
> It's pretty fast, isn't it? to do something like this they should hit the rain dozens of times per second, or so.



Oh, no one's doubting that Dante was fast as hell, but with the previous arguement of SOL Sora (which may be debunked at this point), it was a matter of Dante not being NEAR fast enough.

Given the aspect of 'lasers don't explode', and the fact that Xenmas' attacks do, then it's likely that they are not real lasers, meaning it's unlikely that Sora is SOL, if even sporadically.

As I said earlier, Dante's chances in this fight just got a lot better.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 27, 2010)

Explode? The light got reflected, just not in any particular direction,



So dante has a feat with rain that sora has with laser beams who may or may not be SOL'ed.
Whatever speed they are, they sure as hell are faster than rain....


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 27, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Explode? The light got reflected, just not in any particular direction,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hadn't considered Sora as a disco ball...


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 27, 2010)

keyblade reflects.
The whole shtick is about reflecting


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 27, 2010)

but still nobody told me how fast is that feat, or if it is possible to calc


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 27, 2010)

Well, from what I gather, rain can fall anywhere from 2 meters/second (about 4.5mph) for small drops to about 9 meters/second (about 20mph) (for large drops).

I would say the rain in the vid would probably be somewhere in between, so maybe about 5 meters/second, which my math gives me slightly over 11mph.

Someone else will need to run the actual calc from there. It's lookin to me like they're moving maybe 5 or 6 times faster than the rain, so I'm guessin no more than 60mph or so... It's hard for me to gauge as the speed is never constant.


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 27, 2010)

All rain drops however are falling at an acceleration of 9.81m/s square. Don't forget that.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 27, 2010)

And it could be a misinterpretation. You know, water gets pushed out because of the clash instead of held outside untill he drops it


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 27, 2010)

DMC1 Alastor gives Dante lightning speed and aerial capabilities.
Skip to 1:35 for display of Dante enhanced speed. 
Skip to 2:05 states Alastor gives possessor lightning speed and aerial capabilities.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZKQzyGunT0[/YOUTUBE]

DMC4 Dante battles Blitz a demon with lightning speed.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=led2jJyATHg&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

DMC game story goes in this order if i remember. Begins - DMC3, DMC1, DMC2, DMC4 - current.


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 27, 2010)

MisterShin said:


> DMC1 Alastor gives Dante lightning speed and aerial capabilities.
> Skip to 1:35 for display of Dante enhanced speed.
> Skip to 2:05 states Alastor gives possessor lightning speed and aerial capabilities.
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZKQzyGunT0[/YOUTUBE]
> ...



Except the fact that the fight between Dante and Virgil in the opening animation from DMC3, which was what, at least 10 years before DMC1, was faster than his swinging of Alastor. The first vid didn't really display 'enhanced speed' at all. The abilities the sword grants are applied to DT. The Dante in the vid was that fast naturally (and likely a good bit faster).


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 27, 2010)

Also, I think the game order is 3, 1, 4, 2... Don't really feel like opening wiki to check.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 27, 2010)

Madara42 said:


> I don't think they were.





In the very vid I posted you can see the text scrolling at the top when the scene starts saying to "use reflect to deflect the *laser* attack."


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 27, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> Also, I think the game order is 3, 1, 4, 2... Don't really feel like opening wiki to check.



This is actually correct.


----------



## Wutani (Aug 27, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> Also, I think the game order is 3, 1, 4, 2... Don't really feel like opening wiki to check.



What is this "2" you talking about DMC goes 3, 1 and 4 there is no 2 

The anime is squeezed in there somewhere but i can't remember where.

Although you are correct Dante has some ridiculous feats for his younger self.

IIRC the Raindrop feat granted Dante Double digit swinging speeds, but not movement speed.

The tower dive should be a sufficient feat. Can't remember what speed was calced.



> In the very vid I posted you can see the text scrolling at the top when the scene starts saying to "use reflect to deflect the laser attack."



Still just a statement in a game, same as the Amaterasu hyperbole. 

Dante has also deflected a Laser attack does that make him FTL?


----------



## Wutani (Aug 27, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Movement speed: tower dive
> Reaction speed: blitz
> and swinging speed: I guess this one's the raindrop one, but I want to know how someone calced dante at double digits in mach when a raindrop's max terminal velocity is only 20mph.



If people want to take what is said in the games as gospel truth then Alastor grants Dante lightning speed.

Someone needs to post the Raindrop calc.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 27, 2010)

Wutani said:


> Still just a statement in a game, same as the Amaterasu hyperbole.



I suspect you may not know the definition of hyperbole.  Or at the very least not know how to properly use it.



> Dante has also deflected a Laser attack does that make him FTL?



I'd love to see him deflecting lasers, got a link?



Wutani said:


> If people want to take what is said in the games as gospel truth then Alastor grants Dante lightning speed.
> 
> Someone needs to post the Raindrop calc.



I wouldn't have a problem with Dante having lightning speed.  However it would only be while using that sword and likely only apply when he's in devil trigger, which means it's only useable for short periods of time.

However, it's also possible that the statement of it giving him lightning speed is hyperbole, I'd have to see how it's written exactly.


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 27, 2010)

Aren't Xemnas' "lasers" really just a projectile version of his Aeriel Blades (Or whatever the hell it is people call them these days)? They both seem to be energy and glow red...


----------



## Wutani (Aug 28, 2010)

Enclave said:


> I suspect you may not know the definition of hyperbole.  Or at the very least not know how to properly use it.



Hyperbole is to exaggerate a statement please don't get on a high horse.

E.g Amaterasu is as hot as the sun. Thats a pretty good one. 
"I have seen this river so wide it had only one bank."

Satisfied?

Devil May Cry, Devil Arms ? Alastor: "Gives the possessor lightning speed and aerial capabilities."

Dante also has Pandora's Box which has a laser attack.

 "Transform Pandora from a bazooka to a laser cannon capable of searing blasts. Successful attacks will fill the Disaster gauge."


----------



## Wutani (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> lol



I had to address the question 



1234567890 said:


> The alastor comment could very well be hyperbole, I know it's power is lightning, but magic lightning isn't lightning speed unless stated so (I still have problems with this one)
> 
> I see nothing to debate about on Pandora's box. Also IIRC wasn't Nightmare from DMC1 a stated laser gun as well?



Alastor is the embodiment of electricity which would allow him to travel at lightning speeds since lightning is basically just electrical discharge.

Artemis is stated to be a laser weapon.

Yea Nightmare Beta.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 28, 2010)

> Fair enough he reacted to blitz in DMC 3



he reacted to blitz in dmc4, one year after dmc1, if I remember well...


----------



## Sol_Blackguy (Aug 28, 2010)

Even without Genie, Time Stop and Relflectega Sora still wins.

Sora was hitting Buildings like he was playing Baseball.


----------



## Wutani (Aug 28, 2010)

Kakashi234 said:


> Even without Genie, Time Stop and Relflectega Sora still wins.
> 
> Sora was hitting Buildings like he was playing Baseball.



Please read through the thread.


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> So he did, but that wasn't with alastor, the point I was getting at is, w/o Alastor, he almost lightning times. W/ Alastor he lightning times.


I support this above.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> The problem is lasers don't explode when they hit something.



Seriously? Is this a serious issue here?


----------



## Wutani (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Seriously? Is this a serious issue here?



Its true though, people claiming Sora is FTL because he deflected lasers despite the fact they explode. Therefore they aren't FTL lasers.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Wutani said:


> Hyperbole is to exaggerate a statement please don't get on a high horse.
> 
> E.g Amaterasu is as hot as the sun. Thats a pretty good one.
> "I have seen this river so wide it had only one bank."
> ...



Well if you know the definition I don't see how you can think what the game says about the 1,000 lasers attack is hyperbole.  It doesn't fit the criteria.  The game wasn't comparing the attacks to lasers, it simply called them lasers.

Now, the bad thing about the quote for Alastor is that saying something has lightning speed, that very well could be hyperbole.  The term lightning speed is often used to describe feats of speed even though in reality said feats are nowhere near the speed of lightning.

Next would be this Pandora laser attack.  How does that exactly prove that Dante has shown the ability to reactively block a laser?  Just means he can fire one.


----------



## Wutani (Aug 28, 2010)

Enclave said:


> Well if you know the definition I don't see how you can think what the game says about the 1,000 lasers attack is hyperbole.  It doesn't fit the criteria.  The game wasn't comparing the attacks to lasers, it simply called them lasers.



You could call the attack 1,000 lemons, it doesn't make it true.

Lasers don't explode.


----------



## rockonyx (Aug 28, 2010)

Wutani said:


> You could call the attack 1,000 lemons, it doesn't make it true.
> 
> Lasers don't explode.



That's what he's saying. He's just stating that "hyperbole" is the wrong term. It's not hyperbole, it's an incorrect label.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Wutani said:


> Lasers don't explode.



Seriously? This is seriously the issue?

It's so inane really. Maybe Kizaru's light beams aren't made of light either becase they have that special effect on the end..
Or the Pacifista lasers. They explode on contact
It's such a bad argument. It's grasping on an artistic flair for no good reason.

But hey, I'm gonna counter it anyway. It's "REFLECT" that bounces the lasers off. In Master Xehanort's fight, when he uses Time Stop on a reflect barrier that is being hit by nothing but keyblades and tornado aeroga, it overcharges in that segment and explodes.
Aren't keyblades made of mass then if they explode in a ball of fire or is it magic barrier kudos that deserves the victory?

Added on to the fact that if you do effectively stop all the lasers, there is no explosion to be said.

Added to the point that in order for this to be a relevant argument, we need to claim that "faux lasers" are slower than rain while in fact proving that Dante's "rain" feat wasn't simply a force push from the clash. (which shouldn't be too hard)

So any way you look at it, holding on to the explosions is a bad choice.


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Seriously? This is seriously the issue?
> 
> It's so inane really. Maybe Kizaru's light beams aren't made of light either becase they have that special effect on the end..
> Or the Pacifista lasers. They explode on contact
> It's such a bad argument. It's grasping on an artistic flair for no good reason.


I thought PoP addressed this days ago?

*Spoiler*: __ 





Pimp of Pimps said:


> *You know, in Kishi's mind space-time technique are not teleportation. **Just because lasers in the real world have to be at least the speed of light, does not mean all things considered lasers in the OPworld are light speed.
> 
> I always assumed that Kizaru's lasers are tangible because they are so condensed, and that because of that they are a lot slower than light.
> *








Banhammer said:


> But hey, I'm gonna counter it anyway. It's "REFLECT" that bounces the lasers off. In Master Xehanort's fight, when he uses Time Stop on a reflect barrier that is being hit by nothing but keyblades and tornado aeroga, it overcharges in that segment and explodes.


 I don't remember any indication Xehanort cast time stop during that attack. Was it during the gathering? If not, would you post a link? 
And "REFLECT" is a verb in this case not an attack name.



Banhammer said:


> Aren't keyblades made of mass then if they explode in a ball of fire or is it magic barrier kudos that deserves the victory?
> 
> Added on to the fact that if you do effectively stop all the lasers, there is no explosion to be said.


Same can be said that if you press nothing at all and just let the lasers rain down at you but you still survive. Oh, Sora got laser durability then.  I've tried it. 




Banhammer said:


> Added to the point that in order for this to be a relevant argument, we need to claim that "faux lasers" are slower than rain while in fact proving that Dante's "rain" feat wasn't simply a force push from the clash. (which shouldn't be too hard)
> 
> So any way you look at it, holding on to the explosions is a bad choice.


Its not a force push
(Naruto 507
You can clearly see their swords hitting the very raindrops @ slow mo in the beginning.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Seriously? This is seriously the issue?
> 
> It's so inane really. Maybe Kizaru's light beams aren't made of light either becase they have that special effect on the end..
> Or the Pacifista lasers. They explode on contact
> ...



You see now why I stopped arguing with these people ages ago regarding Sora's speed?  They harp on artistic license of all things.  Every problem people have with calling the lasers lasers comes from little tiny things which really amount to nothing more than artistic license.

I've mentioned exactly what you are regarding the explosions.  Next they'll move on to the fact that the lasers are visible from all directions when they should be invisible due to being focused in a single direction if they were actually lasers.  Because you know, invisible lasers are ever so entertaining in a visual medium like a video game.

Of course, they then will move on to pointing out that Sora shouldn't even be able to see them if they're lasers  because you can only see something after light has reflected off it and entered your eyes, so something moving the speed of light would be invisible even if the lasers were visible in all directions.  However this also is easily countered by pointing out that fictional characters pull this kind of crazy shit all the time.  Hell, in an episode of Smallville Jimmy Olsen took a picture and Clark was able to see the light from the flash coming towards him in slow motion.  A feat which should be impossible, but it's fiction so it's possible.


----------



## Omnirix (Aug 28, 2010)

Enclave said:


> You see now why I stopped arguing with these people ages ago regarding Sora's speed?  They harp on artistic license of all things.  Every problem people have with calling the lasers lasers comes from little tiny things which really amount to nothing more than artistic license.
> 
> I've mentioned exactly what you are regarding the explosions.  Next they'll move on to the fact that the lasers are visible from all directions when they should be invisible due to being focused in a single direction if they were actually lasers.  Because you know, invisible lasers are ever so entertaining in a visual medium like a video game.
> 
> Of course, they then will move on to pointing out that Sora shouldn't even be able to see them if they're lasers  because you can only see something after light has reflected off it and entered your eyes, so something moving the speed of light would be invisible even if the lasers were visible in all directions.  However this also is easily countered by pointing out that fictional characters pull this kind of crazy shit all the time.  Hell, in an episode of Smallville Jimmy Olsen took a picture and Clark was able to see the light from the flash coming towards him in slow motion.  A feat which should be impossible, but it's fiction so it's possible.



Your point in which that those so called "lasers" are even lasers to begin with was due to game narration that was addressed to the player while the feat itself contradicts with Sora's other feats. Which Mike pointed out in another thread. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





Endless Mike said:


> Wrong. Narration is a higher form of evidence than dialogue (since it's not presented through the filter of a character with their own intentions and fallibility), but it can still be wrong if it states something that is directly contradicted by what is shown on - panel. Visuals are the highest and most accurate form of evidence, since while words can be wrong or misinterpreted, visuals cannot lie. If we see a duck, and the narration says it's an elephant, it's a duck. Of course, if some explanation is later given, like the elephant was put under an illusion by a wizard to look like a duck, that's fine, but it absence of any other information, we go by the visuals. What the author was thinking when he wrote it is irrelevant. The author was not thinking that people would be putting his work into matches against other fictional creations.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

See, artistic license once again.

That seriously can explain EVERY visual piece of evidence that people can bring up for this feat.  As Banhammer pointed out, other works of fiction have also made lasers explode.  Other works of fiction have made lasers visible.  These are common renderings for lasers in fiction.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 28, 2010)

I still say dante wins


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 28, 2010)

This laser thing is still going on?

So are Xemnas' "lasers" still considered lasers?


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

No because sometimes if you fail to activate the cutscene they will make a fwosh on contact.



I'm still waiting for someone to adress the fact that reflect expressed all the energy of the keyblades kinetic damage into an explosion as well.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Generally when lasers are shown to explode people immediately debunk the fact that they are lasers (at least I do). Such as Akuma's "laser" from OP



Well that's just silly then.  In a visual medium it's far more entertaining to depict an explosion instead of a little bit of smoke.  Thus why lasers in fiction often have explosions associated with them.

See, you have to factor in the realisim levels in a piece of fiction before you dismiss a laser because it explodes.  For instance, Kingdom Hearts, it's not the least bit realistic, thus exploding lasers make sense.  Now, say we were talking about Metal Gear Solid, if there were exploding lasers in that, well then I'd be more inclined to not call them lasers.

Hell, in Devil May Cry, if the game called a beam a laser and the laser exploded and was visible and all these other crazy things that the KH lasers did, I'd accept that it's a laser.  Why?  The Devil May Cry verse isn't the least bit realistic.  Often things are done simply to look cool.  Sure it means they have to bend the rules of reality at times to achieve their visual, but that's acceptable in a work of fiction like DMC.

See, you can bet your ass that if Dante had an identical feat to Sora's 1,000 laser feat that I'd be supporting Dante being FTL as well.  I'm not supporting Sora because I'm a fan of Kingdom Hearts, I'm supporting him because he has that feat under his belt and I've not seen any reason to disallow it.  The only way I'll stop accepting it is if KH3 comes along and Sora isn't capable of a similar feat in that game, because then the feat would be retconned.  But until such a time I doubt anybody will be able to convince me otherwise regarding this feat.

That said, I am a fan of Kingdom Hearts.  But I don't let it blind me.  A great example would be in a Link vs Sora fight that seems to be fairly popular on this forum.  I say Sora obviously wins, however I'm a FAR bigger fan of Link than I am of Sora.  I just accept Links limitations, he's not made to go up against somebody as strong as Sora.

By the same token, if somebody made a Sora vs Silver Surfer topic, Sora will be raped like you wouldn't believe.  That said, I'm more of a fan of Sora than I am Silver Surfer, I just accept that Surfer would rip Sora a new asshole without even trying.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Could I ask when this was so I could look up a vid?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M8C4wE0t_g[/YOUTUBE]

3:16

Although it should be pointed the Xehanort does clearly seem to use Time Stop (it's all variatons of the Keybearer's spells anyway) but that would fit into the Time Dilation Theory to explain all the feats going on


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> I don't think anyone would doubt him being able to break through someone's Reflectga spell. Especially after hitting it with hundreds of Keyblades.



Just to point out, that spell didn't look like Reflect.  My money is on it being Protect, a spell in the FF games which reduces physical damage by 50%.

Not saying Master Xehanort can't break through Reflect, just saying that until I play BBS I'm of the opinion that spell was more likely Protect than Reflect since it didn't look like Reflect or act like Reflect.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

That sounds like a whole lots of "I don't know"'s "maybes" and "could be"'s

Anyway, ruling out laser title because of a "flash" if you sometimes fail to activate a cut scene on a guy that uses light screens and light sabers, is not a very  solid option

I don't think his giant dragon mecha form's canon pours out any explosions if that serves a point....


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> That sounds like a whole lots of "I don't know"'s "maybes" and "could be"'s



Eh, I have a fairly strong basis for my thoughts on this.

The spell Aqua cast looked fairly similar to Riku's Dark Shield ability, just Aqua can cast it on somebody other than herself and instead of just defending in a single direction the spell encompasses the entire person.

Also, like I said, the spell looks VERY much the same as the Protect spell usually looks in FF games.

It may not be 100% proof, but it is fairly solid ground to stand on, at least until I can play BBS and find out for certain myself.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Well, Aqua has that Reflect spell on the game, so I'm guessing it's just what it is.



1234567890 said:


> Actually the 20 sided polygon of small hexagons is Reflect IIRC.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Protect in FF games usually looks like a diamond tho...



Depends on the game in the series.

It's been ages since I played it but I believe FF X had a protect spell that looked similar to what Aqua cast.

And also there is as I mentioned the resemblance Aquas spell had to Riku's Dark Shield spell.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> yeh but dark shield only covers the front of someone. and it's not so easily visible. The beehive shield is quite common in video games.



I know, I'm just saying that the spell Aqua cast doesn't look like Reflect while it does look similar to Riku's Dark Shield.

Now it obviously isn't Dark Shield, but it seems to be similar to it at least in appearance and also in function.

We cannot know for certain until BBS is released though.  Well we can, but then you risk major spoilers because you'd have to go to a place like Gamefaqs where people have already played the game and like hell I'm going to take that risk.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Exactly.  That doesn't look like the spell Aqua cast.  For one thing Aqua's spell actually lasted more than a half a second.  Secondly it didn't have the second part where it shoots out.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Well, there's also the fact that Reflect cannot be cast on others.  It's a self only spell, which is why in KH2 the white mushrooms don't give you an item for casting Reflect on them, because you can't.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Wasn't it KH2?  Fuck you're right it was KH1.

Well, in that case I can still point out that you cannot cast Reflect on your party members.

Anyways, this is a pretty pointless conversation since we'll know for sure in a couple weeks.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Well, I've watched Aqua's gameplay vids, and she does have lot's "beehive" aura attacks.


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Protect in FF games usually looks like a diamond tho...



I was under the impression that Shell was the diamond shaped one, but it's been quite a while since I've played any of the FF games.

as far as SOL Sora though, The biggest problem I have with this isn't so much the laser debate, but has he showed anything remotely close to it throughout the rest of the game? I'm fairly confident enough to say that NOTHING in the Disney worlds save maybe the genies could even approach those speeds.

This is of course assuming Sora's stats themselves aren't regulated by the world he's in to keep him on par with that world's threats, which seems both reasonable and stupid to me at the same time. I know he gets at least a fashion makeover depending on where he's at, as well as genetic manipulation (such as getting turned into a merman in Little Mermaid world), but it wouldn't make sense to power him down to levels equal to the world's heroes unless it happens to the nothings and heartless as well...

Still, Sora's speed showings are more impressive than Dante's (and the raindrop feat, most of it lloks like the rain's falling without a problem until the last big hurrah. That one looks like maybe the air pressure from Dante's and Vergil's attacks are keeping the rain aloft until the last clash of blades).

All in all, I'd still have to give this one to Sora. There was the arguement that the keyblade itself is bending the reality around Sora in bursts, and I have nothing to either back that up, nor refute it.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Sora gets transformed into crap left and right. Dices, posters, lions, mermaids, ghosts, Data, etc.

It does fuck around with his abilities though, for example, his Lion and Mermaid powers.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> By this am I to assume KH3 is going to be released soon?



Nope.  Kingdom Hearts: Birth By Sleep is being released on the 9th of September and you can bet your ass I'll be buying it that same day since it's a day off and then I'll play the hell out of it.

However, Sora isn't in it, so this game likely wouldn't be able to confirm or retcon Sora's FTL laser feat.

See, this game takes place I think 10 years before the first Kingdom Hearts.



Ky Hakubi said:


> as far as SOL Sora though, The biggest problem I have with this isn't so much the laser debate, but has he showed anything remotely close to it throughout the rest of the game? I'm fairly confident enough to say that NOTHING in the Disney worlds save maybe the genies could even approach those speeds.
> 
> This is of course assuming Sora's stats themselves aren't regulated by the world he's in to keep him on par with that world's threats, which seems both reasonable and stupid to me at the same time. I know he gets at least a fashion makeover depending on where he's at, as well as genetic manipulation (such as getting turned into a merman in Little Mermaid world), but it wouldn't make sense to power him down to levels equal to the world's heroes unless it happens to the nothings and heartless as well...



Naw, his stats aren't relegated to the world he's in.  He just gets stronger and stronger as the game progresses.  Not to mention he received a MASSIVE power boost right near the end of KH2 when Roxas finally fully merged with him.  Thus why after that point his feats suddenly became *significantly* better without any other possible reason.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> as far as SOL Sora though, The biggest problem I have with this isn't so much the laser debate, but has he showed anything remotely close to it throughout the rest of the game? I'm fairly confident enough to say that NOTHING in the Disney worlds save maybe the genies could even approach those speeds.



I think it's pretty accepted that Sora in the end taps into his Eleventh Hour Super Power. Probably because of the unlocking of Final Form or his appeasement with Roxas


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> I think it's pretty accepted that Sora in the end taps into his Eleventh Hour Super Power. Probably because of the unlocking of Final Form or his appeasement with Roxas



I guess that'd do it.

GG Dante.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> I think it's pretty accepted that Sora in the end taps into his Eleventh Hour Super Power. Probably because of the unlocking of Final Form or his appeasement with Roxas



Exactly.

MASSIVE KINGDOM HEARTS SPOILERS AHEAD


*Spoiler*: __ 



See, Sora near the end of KH1 had his power cut in half.  He was turned into a heartless (which is when his Nobody Roxas was born).

Now, Kairi restored him to human form, but technically speaking Sora was still a heartless, his heart just took the form of his human body.  Thing is though, he was still weakened.

You'll also note, after this happened the Heartless all suddenly became much tougher to damage, this reflected Sora's weakened state.  He of course once again gets stronger and is able to overcome "Ansem" at the end of the game, but he's still missing part of his power.

Then we see during 358/2 Days, Roxas starts out fairly weak, mainly because he's half the strength of Sora as of the time Sora was split in two.  However throughout 358/2 Days Roxas eventually becomes the 2nd most powerful of the Nobodies in Organisation XIII (only one we don't know if he's stronger than is Xemnas) and this was even in a weakened state since his power was being syphoned off by Xion.

Now, at the beginning of KH2, Roxas rejoins with Sora.  However he hasn't fully accepted Sora.  So while Sora has regained his proper body, he doesn't have access to all of Roxas' power as Roxas is holding it back.  However near the end of KH2 Roxas and Sora fight and Sora wins, then Roxas finally understands why Sora was chosen over himself and accepts Sora completely and fully gives himself over.  This results in Sora gaining access to all of Roxas' power which in turn results in a MASSIVE power-up for Sora.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Actually, there's a bit missing there but I won't spoil you.
It has to do with Birth By Sleep


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Actually, there's a bit missing there but I won't spoil you.
> It has to do with Birth By Sleep



I'm not surprised.  But thank you for not spoiling.

But out of the games thus far released in North America, it's quite accurate I believe


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 28, 2010)

Oh it's gonna be so awesome.
And you've allready seen it though, in Final Mix.
Just one hint however:
Rule Of Three.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 28, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Dammit why did I have quit my job this week, I need that game!



If you like I can tell you what happens after I play it :ho


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 29, 2010)

oh, am I really the only one who thinks that dante wins? I can't belive it


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 29, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> oh, am I really the only one who thinks that dante wins? I can't belive it



I think you might be. I'm not a particular fan of KH (though I don't have anything against it), and I've loved the DMC games, but I can't really recall a speed feat from Dante to equal the stuff from Sora. I know Dante's fast as hell, but I don't think he was quite THAT fast. 

I'm still convinced that Dante has a hell of a lot more durability, skill, and strength, especially when the kid gloves come off, but given that most of what I recall was just Dante goofing around with his opponents, it's not easy to judge his feats. 

Given Sora's ability to reflect those beams (lasers or not), Gunslinger, and everything associated with it, will pretty much be non-factor.

If Dante's reactions are fast enough, Royal Guard might give him an edge, especially in DT with one of the speed enhanced Devil Arms, but even then, there's no real telling if it would be enough.

Of course someone posted earlier (if only jokingly) that Dante could tank an attack in an attempt to get Sora's weapon lodged into his body, then grab hold of the kid and pummel him into oblivion. I don't know how viable that tactic would be but...


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 29, 2010)

dante can teleport

teleport>speed


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 29, 2010)

anyway dante is too much skilled and strong (physically and in terms of magic power) for sora.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 29, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> Of course someone posted earlier (if only jokingly) that Dante could tank an attack in an attempt to get Sora's weapon lodged into his body, then grab hold of the kid and pummel him into oblivion. I don't know how viable that tactic would be but...



Sora can just let go of the keyblade do a backflip in the air and sumon it to his hand


Also, that would kill Dante


----------



## Wutani (Aug 29, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Sora can just let go of the keyblade do a backflip in the air and sumon it to his hand
> 
> 
> Also, that would kill Dante



What would kill Dante getting impaled by a Keyblade?

He gets impaled on a regular basis. Its nothing new to him.

@Ky Hakubi, Dante has shown the ability to intercept Blitz who was a demon made of lightning. Thats a pretty solid feat.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 29, 2010)

Wutani said:


> What would kill Dante getting impaled by a Keyblade?
> 
> He gets impaled on a regular basis. Its nothing new to him.



A keyblade is not the same as you garden variety whack a mole stick.


> @Ky Hakubi, Dante has shown the ability to intercept Blitz who was a demon made of lightning. Thats a pretty solid feat.


That has much validity as Sora beating up Larxene, and less than power scale-able Terra outruning thundaga  which puts Dante leagues beneath him


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 29, 2010)

we only have got a in-game feat from sora, but we don't know how fast that "1000 lasers" were. sora is hitten by a laser during the cutscenes and he don't even know what's going on. the FTL feat was debunked like the lightning feat from dante.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 29, 2010)

you're hit by one if you fail to activate the cutscene


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 29, 2010)

> you're hit by one if you fail to activate the cutscene



I'm talking about the space paranoids levels. at the start he is hitten by the laser that tansforms him into data.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 29, 2010)

Lol, the data converter.
Anyway that was mid through KHII. He gets lots of power ups in between


Also, the keyblades aren't cutting damage unless you want them to be. Another magic power that makes it more kid friendly I guess
But the Fenrir, ultima, and X-blade are all sharp edged

And it's not  like he could have blocked it. The damn thing was on it's way to convert Kingdom Hearts into data


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 29, 2010)

Wutani said:


> @Ky Hakubi, Dante has shown the ability to intercept Blitz who was a demon made of lightning. Thats a pretty solid feat.



If you're talking about that 44 sec vid posted earlier, Dante doesn't intercept shit. Granted, something had to give for Dante to kill the thing in the first place (personally, I don't remember that fight at all), but that vid alone doesn't grant Dante any form of speed. He swung and missed entirely.

DMC 2 is the only one I haven't beaten, so unless there's something there to add to Dante's feats, I can't think of anything to match up to Sora (again, assuming the laser feat is legitimate insofar as to be SOL).


----------



## SharinganKakashi16 (Aug 29, 2010)

Dante has the "rule of cool" in his favor kinda like TTGL. So this one goes to him IMO.


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## Wutani (Aug 30, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> If you're talking about that 44 sec vid posted earlier, Dante doesn't intercept shit. Granted, something had to give for Dante to kill the thing in the first place (personally, I don't remember that fight at all), but that vid alone doesn't grant Dante any form of speed. He swung and missed entirely.



True he never actually hit Blitz in the Cutscene but he clearly reacted to him and moved to intercept him only Blitz moved away at the last second.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 30, 2010)

the lasers feat from sora was debunked and the lightning reaction feat from dante was too.


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## Wutani (Aug 30, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> the lasers feat from sora was debunked and the lightning reaction feat from dante was too.



I Don't see how it was debunked when the cutscene clearly shows him reacting to Blitz.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't know but on the profiles it's writeen that these 2 feats were debunked


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## MisterShin (Aug 30, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> the lasers feat from sora was debunked and the lightning reaction feat from dante was too.


I think Dante wins this.

Yamato + Teleportation + Doppleganger + Devil Trigger.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 30, 2010)

They've been heavily debated more so than debunked

It's such an outliers that Sora isn't typically awarded speedblitz but always just enough speed to avoid getting it on his end, wether he's fighting sonics or lightnings.


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## the box (Aug 30, 2010)

sora is physically stronger and moves a light speed.

has the reaction time to dodge sniper bullets at close range and even hit them back

sora in a rape


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## Wutani (Aug 30, 2010)

the box said:


> sora is physically stronger and moves *a light speed.*



Lol. 
10char


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 30, 2010)

Raigen Effect


----------



## Level7N00b (Aug 30, 2010)

the box said:


> sora is physically stronger and moves a light speed.
> 
> has the reaction time to dodge sniper bullets at close range and even hit them back
> 
> sora in a rape





Neg bombs away!


----------



## MarySassy (Aug 30, 2010)

the box said:


> sora is physically stronger and moves a light speed.
> 
> has the reaction time to dodge sniper bullets at close range and even hit them back
> 
> sora in a rape



Not true at all Sora is class 100 just like Dante.

I'm iffy about the sniper dodging since that seems like game mechanics. If it happened in a quick time it might make more sense.

Lightspeed in Xemnas' world seems unquantifiable for me because then it opens up a whole new can of worms that allows Sora to dodge anything with Reflect.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 30, 2010)

MarySassy said:


> Not true at all Sora is class 100 just like Dante.
> 
> *I'm iffy about the sniper dodging since that seems like game mechanics. If it happened in a quick time it might make more sense.*
> 
> Lightspeed in Xemnas' world seems unquantifiable for me because then it opens up a whole new can of worms that allows Sora to dodge anything with Reflect.



You mean the fight against Xigbar?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkfqVA5dOwU[/YOUTUBE]

1:04-1:20

It's a Reaction Command move.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 31, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Could I ask when this was so I could look up a vid?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, I didn't notice this.

One easy example would be from One Piece.  Kizaru has shot beams of light that explode.  A beam of light is a laser, yet it explodes.  Or are you saying Kizaru, a Light man who can fire focused light isn't actually shooting focused light because the light explodes?

Like I said earlier, a laser that explodes can still be a laser in fiction.  It's all about artistic licence being used in a visual medium.



HeavyMetalThunder said:


> I don't know but on the profiles it's writeen that these 2 feats were debunked



Eh, the OBD wiki is just that, a wiki.  Somebody could easily go on there to say the exact opposite.  It's not the end all be all of information.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 31, 2010)

> sora is physically stronger



are you serious? dante can block a saviour punch, support his dead weight (hundreds of tons), and then trow him some meter back. 

the punch strenght could be 1000 tons, or so. (my opinion). throwing hundreds of tons like 10 m back....I don't think Sora would be able to do that.


----------



## MisterShin (Aug 31, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> are you serious? dante can block a saviour punch, support his dead weight (hundreds of tons), and then trow him some meter back.
> 
> the punch strenght could be 1000 tons, or so. (my opinion). throwing hundreds of tons like 10 m back....I don't think Sora would be able to do that.



Dante does this in Base am i right. (havent played much DMC4)

Devil Trigger would boost this strength.


----------



## HeavyMetalThunder (Aug 31, 2010)

> Dante does this in Base am i right. (havent played much DMC4)
> 
> Devil Trigger would boost this strength.



yes, you are right.


----------



## Densoro (Aug 31, 2010)

Love how often this fight comes up xD

Anyway, KH's whole physics system is full of holes  The fight where he was batting around buildings happened in a zero-gravity environment, which was represented by letting you air-dodge infinitely. Which of course makes no sense.

Just about everybody ever to get to Traverse Town supposedly survived 'atmospheric reentry,' including such amazing beasts as Geppetto and Pinocchio >_> And when a star goes out, you can see it within minutes, as shown when Donald and Goofy pointed out the end of Destiny Island.

You've got all these glaring physics problems, but you want to put them aside and insist they used the word 'laser' correctly?


----------



## The Saltiest Pizza (Aug 31, 2010)

Densoro said:


> Love how often this fight comes up xD
> 
> Anyway, KH's whole physics system is full of holes  The fight where he was batting around buildings happened in a zero-gravity environment, which was represented by letting you air-dodge infinitely. Which of course makes no sense.
> 
> ...



My thoughts too. I figured they used 'laser' in the context of "glowing energy thingy".


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 31, 2010)

Sora wasn't battling on Zero G, simply when the fusion of Roxas his complete he gains the ability to glide.
An ability he still showcases in KH3
If you use huge altitude as a plot point that will translate into infinite aerial dodge.
(not to mention momentum is still conserved in space, gravity is in a way "simulated" in those shocks even if there wasn't any.)

You will notice that if you let yourself go down for long enough in that battle and reach the bottom of the groundless scene, he will walk on foot



And the stars are a magic methaphor for worlds that have gone out. The worlds are very magical, and as you notice you have to skip dimensions to get there (The walls of reality, the barriers between worlds) so pretty much one can assume the "stars" that do go out are conections, passageways into the other worlds before they fall into darkness.


----------



## Enclave (Aug 31, 2010)

Densoro said:


> Anyway, KH's whole physics system is full of holes  The fight where he was batting around buildings happened in a zero-gravity environment, which was represented by letting you air-dodge infinitely. Which of course makes no sense.



Sora has been able to fly since KH1 even when not at Neverland.  You see this in the final battle in that game.  It's also reflected by how he can fly in his fight with Xemnas.  There's multiple times in that fight where he's clearly defying gravity.

Basically, that wasn't a 0g environment.  Additionally, even in a 0g environment it's not easy to move objects of such mass.



> Just about everybody ever to get to Traverse Town supposedly survived 'atmospheric reentry,' including such amazing beasts as Geppetto and Pinocchio >_> And when a star goes out, you can see it within minutes, as shown when Donald and Goofy pointed out the end of Destiny Island.



Incorrect actually.  When a world is devoured, any of the survivors get to Traverse Town via dark corridors.  You'll note when Sora and Riku got back to Destiny Islands, they didn't take a dark corridor and thus weren't brought there on ground level.



> You've got all these glaring physics problems, but you want to put them aside and insist they used the word 'laser' correctly?



Gotcha, Kizaru doesn't shoot focused beams of light because his beams explode.  Ignore the fact that he's a Light Light man right?


----------



## Densoro (Aug 31, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> He would still have to overcome the weight and the velocity of said skyscraper, in zero G rather than batting away something of that size it would make more sense to be deflected back by it, when Sora loses no ground when he bats them away.





> Toonforce, they are after all Disney characters


 Answered your own question. But really, what I'm getting at is KH physics are completely wonky. Evidenced by Sora somehow being heavier than that building. Yes, Power = Weight trope, but that doesn't make it any more logical.



> A very simple answer for this one, they aren't even stars they are planets and there is nothing to suggest that they are more than a few light-seconds away


So not only does 'laser' = 'glob of vaguely defined energy that you can hold in your hand,' but now 'star' = 'very nearby planet.' And you're asking why I question KH's semantics? 



> So I guess none of the lasers in OP are lasers since they blow up upon contact with a physical object, this includes Kizaru.


OP knows what a star is. They've made me trust their grasp on the English (and Japanese) language.



> Sora has been able to fly since KH1 even when not at Neverland. You see this in the final battle in that game. It's also reflected by how he can fly in his fight with Xemnas.


Gliding =/= flying. Especially because it makes tons more sense than kicking off outer space to quadruple-jump.



> Incorrect actually. When a world is devoured, any of the survivors get to Traverse Town via dark corridors.


Geppetto and Pinocchio were sneezed there by a gigantic space-whale 



> Gotcha, Kizaru doesn't shoot focused beams of light because his beams explode. Ignore the fact that he's a Light Light man right?


Except for the fact that his lasers actually move like light on the way there. Xemnas's fly around like magical Airsoft pellets. Not to say they're as slow as Airsoft, but you get the point. If everything that glowed and flew around was a laser, there wouldn't be a video game character alive who's slower than light >___>


----------



## Ky Hakubi (Aug 31, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> That ain't gonna work lasers don't explode IRL because they can't, so either you accept all exploding lasers as lasers (unless given some other reason to doubt it, such as OP fodder dodging it, talking about Akuma) or you accept that none of them are.



The flaw with this argument... Ducks can't talk IRL either. Humans can't use magic IRL. You can't build ships out of random geometric shapes and fly through dimensional walls into other universes IRL...

It's a video game (or manga in the case of OP). Not even realistic in the aspect of real world physics. If we were talking something like Metal Gear, or another series more 'grounded' in reality (more or less), then I would have to completely agree with you. Given that KH is a collaboration between Disney and Square, however, more or less nullifies any kind of RL physics arguments automatically.


----------



## Densoro (Aug 31, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> Sora himself is not a disney character he is a KH caharcter, which means he is only canon to KH, as himself he doesn't have much toonforce feats, and giving him toonforce means he auto stomps Dante because pretty much omnipotence is the only thing that can trump it


Then you admit his feats are just straight illogical then. Good man 



> There is nothing suggesting that the "lasers" he holds in his hand and the one's he uses in the dome are the same.


In 368/2 Days, last I checked whatever 'laser' he has equipped for a weapon is what he ends up shooting during his special attacks. If we go by the Gordian knot, they're still the same 'lasers,' just arranged differently.



> Also if you ever look up at the night sky when there is a planet visible it appears as if it's a star, even Venus the planet closest to earth looks like a red star


Never been able to catch those, it's annoying >_< Well, at the very least it means the Gummi Ship isn't traveling between solar systems, making it markedly slower and much less rapesome than Banhammer says. 



> if any anime/manga makes you trust their grasp on the english language you very obviously have a much poorer grasp.


Nah, it just means KH makes me go 'wat ' more than OP does  Which is saying something, because OP's _weird_ o_O



> it wasn't outer space it was still "The World That Never Was" Xemnas had just begun to warp the reality around him


And what evidence is there for _that_? o_O Again, simplest solution: the giant dragon that works like a spaceship, drifting out amidst a bunch of sparkly things is probably starting a space battle with you.



> this can be explained as either toonforce or gag feat.


Or, y'know, the physics of a universe powered by hearts being massively different from ours. Tomayto, tomawto.



> That ain't gonna work lasers don't explode IRL because they can't, so either you accept all exploding lasers as lasers (unless given some other reason to doubt it, such as OP fodder dodging it, talking about Akuma) or you accept that none of them are.


False dichotomy. There's shades of grey you aren't considering (such as perhaps Kizaru's lasers hitting with massive amounts of the photoelectric effect) but the fact remains they look and move like actual photons. What Xemnas wields (which includes a few lightning bolts, funny enough) do not.

Though then again, if random fodder in OP can react to Kizaru's lasers then I wonder about them too. People who are lightspeed would have no need for a boat.


----------



## Densoro (Sep 1, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> I always thought the more impressive feat of the Gummi ship, was it's interdimension travel, I mean who the fuck needs speed to escpae when you can hop into another dimension?


It's interdimensional now? o_O I don't recall anything of the sort. Pretty sure normal flight happened in normal space, and warp flight teleported you to another part of normal space.



> The evidence is the fact that the skyscrapers he is throwing at you are from the beginning of TWTNW, also the fact that, it was the world where you fought him in.


Teleporting the chunks that became of the building before doesn't mean the dragon created a whole new dimension to fight you in. But if that's what you believe happened, then that would explain why Sora's feats against Saix aren't anything like those against Xemnas. The dimension itself would seem to work differently then 



> Again making this to be outer space would benefit Sora massively in this fight.
> It would mean he doesn't need to breathe and what's more with oxygen in his system he could still keep from being having his lungs ruptured due to pressure, he could resist the vacuum of space, withstand temepratures of -200f and 200f at the exact same time (boiling point of blood in space is 90f)
> could survive having his blood both frozen and boiling at the same time.


Or, again, space just isn't as harsh in KHverse, explaining why an old man and a puppet can make the trek from a whale's nostrils.



> possibly, but you would have to provide proof that can not be explained any other way, than their laws are different from ours.


Being able to kick off nothing, overcoming an object much heavier than yourself without anywhere to get a hold, everybody being able to teleport their weapons into their hands at a moment's notice...None of this strikes you as odd?



> even still striking against a piece of metal would not cause a huge explosion, instead it would melt through and continue going until it had expended it's energy. Or if the piece of metal had been recently polished it would reflect right back at him.


Either way, it flows like light, whereas the little bolts we've been arguing over move like he tossed a radioactive brick at somebody.



> It was Akuma's "laser" that was dodged by fodder, IDK about Kizaru. As for why he needs a boat, he can only travel in a straight line SOL, and he can only travel a set amount of distance like that (i think it's 100m)


Ah, okay, Kizaru's in the clear then


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> In the end it comes back to visuals, no one ever stops to think that Xemnas may be controlling their size and shape via telepathy.



Maybe he's making the light refract in a manner similar to an explosion via telepathy...


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## Densoro (Sep 1, 2010)

1234567890 said:


> each ot the worlds are separate dimension that are all connected together, the only things that allow travel between these dimension are, heartless powers, nobody powers, keyblades, and gummi ships


But a whale's sneeze is strictly physical, so that doesn't match up.



> I didn't say he created a new dimension I said he warped reality, he had a previous dimension to warp from, which would be TWTNW


Still, him teleporting a few chunks of rubble doesn't exclude the possibility that they flew out into space. I'm confused why you treat them like they're mutually exclusive.



> The puppet wouldn't be affected as he is not a living being,


But undergoing a proper atmospheric reentry would have scattered his ashes to the four winds.



> and I have already demonstarted how gepetto would be able to survive it (toonforce, or gag; much like hercule taking a blow from cell,


It's already been demonstrated that Disney characters don't get any different treatment from the universe than Square characters do. They've had their lives threatened on multiple occasions, including, fittingly enough, Pinocchio by the Parasite Cage. And unlike Hercule getting swatted away, Geppetto's little trip was actually relevant to the story.



> but other than that you also survive 35 seconds in space if you empty your lungs of all air (you'll only be conscious for 15s though)


If the Gummi Ship's as fast as Banhammer says, then it'd take Geppetto much longer than 35 seconds to fly clear from Monstro to Traverse Town.



> The keyblade time and time again demonstrates the ability to rip reality a new one, sora could already glide anyway so kicking off of air is not a terrible stretch.
> Again keyblades are reality bending to slight degree, this still doesn't say that physics is not the same, it's just that certain people are able to ignore physical laws.


And all the other, lesser weapons clawing through the laws of physics? Where's the justification there? 



> Honestly this is like saying there is no gravity in DC verse because superman can fly and move planets,


Not really, because Superman can fly, he has the kinda hold that Sora did not. It just means that his flight is powerful enough to push an entire planet aside. 



> In the end it comes back to visuals, no one ever stops to think that Xemnas may be controlling their size and shape via tele*kinesis*.


Okay, but that means it's not really lightspeed, it's telekinetically-thrown-by-Xemnasspeed, and just so happens to be light wrapped in a telekinetic package. Which is a whole 'nother can of worms.

EDIT: Oh, I know why this bugs me so much. Square calling the bolts lasers smacks of the same kinda databook fuckup as Kishi insisting that Haku's lightspeed!


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

Xenmas isn't using telekinesis to manipulate light. He uses light to makes his light sabers and he uses light to make mirror walls and doubles. He controlls light and darkness.
What's the deal?


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## Densoro (Sep 1, 2010)

The fact that it doesn't move a thing like light, really. That plus all the other physics inconsistencies in KH that lead me to believe the OBD's taking it far too seriously. It's a pretty bitchin verse, and I love the symbolism of it, but really, some of the conclusions you guys come to just seem silly o_o


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

How does a straight red glowing beam does not move in a fashion akin to light?
It holds no momentum on them so it certainly doesn't move like a particle.
And all this explosion bull is getting old. While it's perfectly possible for something like that to happen within lasers, in or out of very typical trope effect, the explosion is not supposed to happen.
You're supposed to reflect them all off, and when you do, no explosions.


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## Enclave (Sep 1, 2010)

Densoro said:


> Gliding =/= flying. Especially because it makes tons more sense than kicking off outer space to quadruple-jump.



I'd address more but I don't have the time right now and looks like others have already addressed much of what you've said.

Anyways, you probably don't want to hear this but it's flying not gliding.

5:08-5:30


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> How does a straight red glowing beam does not move in a fashion akin to light?
> It holds no momentum on them so it certainly doesn't move like a particle.
> And all this explosion bull is getting old. While it's perfectly possible for something like that to happen within lasers, in or out of very typical trope effect, *the explosion is not supposed to happen.
> You're supposed to reflect them all off, and when you do, no explosions.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

After you fully mastered Final Form you can "glide" indefinitely with barely any altitude loss.


Autonomous flight is also perfectly fine during genie and mulan's limits who has you know, consist of hybrid between game mechanics and cut-scenes..
You can also fly in Peter Plan's limit but there you can argue Tinkerbell's assistance.



> Or, again, space just isn't as harsh in KHverse, explaining why an old man and a puppet can make the trek from a whale's nostrils.


the fact that they survive inside a whale at all is Disney magic.
When certain worlds fall to darkness the strongest or unique hearts wind up in traverse town. Some retain some sort of shape and can be called back, albeit temporarily, through their totems. Those are Sora's summons.
In pinochio's world, there was only a few hearts that survived, and those were gepeto's family and pinochio, who was a major plot point, as to find out how could such a thing have a heart, and, of course, monstro, who was so massive he would be a fragment of a world himself, allowing him to traverse the space between realities. 
When they left the whale, the stregnth of their hearts simply brought them to the same place Sora was brought to when Destiny Islands fell into darkness.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

maybe I am the only one who thinks KHverse is weaker than DMCverse and god of war verse. but we've got the cutscenes. in videogames cutscenes are the canon. at least, around here they are the canon. in cutscenes sora isn't strong or powerful or fast if compared to kratos or dante.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Sep 1, 2010)

Should we just call this one a stalemate?


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

the thread itself has been repeated at least 3x.


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

No, not really. Thread has been done before and Sora had already been awarded victory I think


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> No, not really. Thread has been done before and Sora had already been awarded victory I think



but only with the genie, from what I recall


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

with master form on? He doesn't need genie.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> with master form on? He doesn't need genie.



oooh, not again, please! I don't want to restart this debate.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

lol 325 posts! (326 now)


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

merge with the others is an option though


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

Victory to Sora. If Xemnas is stated to control light and darknesss, then there's no reason to believe that those aren't SOL lasers, making Sora at least situational SOL reaction, which Dante simply isn't fast enough to overcome. Any arguement made about the explosions could very well fall to the astetic rule of style>substance.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> Victory to Sora. If Xemnas is stated to control light and darknesss, then there's no reason to believe that those aren't SOL lasers, making Sora at least situational SOL reaction, which Dante simply isn't fast enough to overcome. Any arguement made about the explosions could very well fall to the astetic rule of style>substance.



and even if sora is faster (I still don't think so)? dante defeated way faster enemys than himself (blitz). speed isn't a problem.


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

Again there's a Theory that is kinda nice and doesn't necessarily force us to call Sora FTL


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> Again there's a Theory that is kinda nice and doesn't necessarily force us to call Sora FTL




hm? wich one? the teleport theory?


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

No, that in KHII many of Sora's KHI spells have gone through a subtle change.
For example Aeroga in KHI and reflega in KHII are a defensive barrier but 
*Spoiler*: __ 



 in birth by sleep it's an offensive tornado that can kill bosses like no one's buisness and reflega is used as an offensive charge technique


 Firaga is a fire missile in I but a radial offensive/defensive barrier in II while blizard who was the shotgun moove is now the missile.
Theory is that there are many versions of a spell that you can cast on your self.
So when Sora flies now, that could be because of his Gravity spell turned on himself, and when sora hits these FTL moments it could be him casting the reverse of Time Stop on himself
It's 100% speculation though



Although it should be known that teleport your enemy away from battle is a technique in Chains Of Memories.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> and even if sora is faster (I still don't think so)? dante defeated way faster enemys than himself (blitz). speed isn't a problem.



Blitz was lightning speed. SOL>>>>>Lightning. Yes, Dante has overcome foes faster than he, but not nearly THIS much faster. I'm not saying it'd be easy for Sora, but I can't see Dante keeping up in this fight.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> Blitz was lightning speed. SOL>>>>>Lightning. Yes, Dante has overcome foes faster than he, but not nearly THIS much faster. I'm not saying it'd be easy for Sora, but I can't see Dante keeping up in this fight.



dante can teleport.


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

So can all the nobodies


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> So can all the nobodies



dante>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>nobodies


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

Not if Blitz is someone you go to for a reference point.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> dante can teleport.





Banhammer said:


> So can all the nobodies



Sora teleports too.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

if we look at the game mechanichs then dante can use the dreadnaught, tank an attack, block sora with his strenght and then slice him in a half. he's obviously a better tactician, and a more skilled swordsman/gunslinger/combatant.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

I'm failing to see how completely missing Blitz in a video equates to beating a potentially SOL opponent... If Blitz truly is lightning speed, and that video is the only evidence of Dante's speed, than Dante<<<lightning.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

dante's speed calcs put him in to the mach 10-15 range at his weakest (of course much higher in dmc4, higher in DT, and even higher in Sparda DT). sora is supposed to be hypersonic based on feats and powerscaling because game mechanichs aren't canon in there.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> if we look at the game mechanichs then dante can use the dreadnaught, tank an attack, block sora with his strenght and then slice him in a half. he's obviously a better tactician, and a more skilled swordsman/gunslinger/combatant.



The only problem is that it's my understanding that game mechanics don't apply unless stated by the OP.

And I've seen nothing proving Dante to be a better or worse tactician than Sora. More skilled? Undoubtedly. Batman is more skilled than the Flash. Can he keep up? _Hell_ no.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

sora is too much weak, phisically and in terms of magic power. dante has got too much durability. even if we look at game mechanichs, sora would just be faster. that's all. he wouldn't be smart, strong, powerful, durable enough to win.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> dante's speed calcs put him in to the mach 10-15 range at his weakest (of course much higher in dmc4, higher in DT, and even higher in Sparda DT). sora is supposed to be hypersonic based on feats and powerscaling because game mechanichs aren't canon in there.



If Dante is mach 10, that still puts him nowhere near the speeds necessary to win this.

Speed of sound is somewhere around 768mph or so... Mach 10 is ten times that, so 7,680mph. Dante at Mach 15 is 1,020mph.

Lightning is 130,000mph...

How is Dante winning this again?


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> sora is too much weak, phisically and in terms of magic power. dante has got too much durability. even if we look at game mechanichs, sora would just be faster. that's all. he wouldn't be smart, strong, powerful, durable enough to win.



By game mechanics, Sora and Dante would be as smart as the players controlling them. Also by game mechanics, both can be killed by fodder that they should dance circles around with their both arms tied behind their backs and their legs chopped off and bleeding out. I'm not saying Dante isn't stronger or more durable, but if you can't catch whats hitting you, eventually you'll wear down.


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

there's also the fact that if they are somewhat evenly matched in skill, Sora's sheer amount of defenses snares and healing powers should give him a significant edge


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> By game mechanics, Sora and Dante would be as smart as the players controlling them. Also by game mechanics, both can be killed by fodder that they should dance circles around with their both arms tied behind their backs and their legs chopped off and bleeding out. I'm not saying Dante isn't stronger or more durable, but if you can't catch whats hitting you, eventually you'll wear down.



sora can't win. if he's SOL it's a draw, because they can't kill each other. if he's hypersonic as stated in the OBD wiki...well it's a stomp in favour of dante


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## Banhammer (Sep 1, 2010)

If it were a draw in skill sora could just magnet his swords and weapons away. Or you know wear him down and every time Sora gets severely hurt or exausted, sora can just heal himself.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 1, 2010)

> If it were a draw in skill sora could just magnet his swords and weapons away. Or you know wear him down and every time Sora gets severely hurt or exausted, sora can just heal himself.



even if sora uses magnega dante has got telekinesis. and he really doesn't need a sword. he's much stronger


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## Densoro (Sep 1, 2010)

Sorry, had to sleep and all that.

Anyway, this whole SOL thing smacks of Kishi's databook, where Haku is lightspeed because he reflects himself between mirrors. Which means that people who have tagged him have ONLY FIVE SECONDS to hit Pein and blah blah blah.

If Xemnas and Sora fight at lightspeed then so does Narutoverse, because they're equally nonsensical.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 1, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> even if sora uses magnega dante has got telekinesis. and he really doesn't need a sword. he's much stronger



Maybe I missed something by not playing DMC 2, but when the hell has Dante ever used TK?

And again, all Dante's strength is useless if he can't tag Sora.

Although, according to a wiki (yeah, I know), it states that Xemnas controls nothingness the pahse through solid matter and energy based sheilds and projectiles. Unless someone can give some information that expressly states that Xemnas manipulates light, then that could be another strike against the SOL Sora... He could still be hypersonic, but I still haven't seen evidence of Dante being such. He didn't tag Blitz in the video, so that's not proof of his speed. Dante had to kill him to procede in game, but game mechanics don't count, and besides that, there's no earthly way Dante moves even subsonic in-game. It could simply come down to Blitz jobbing. Unless someone can bring something else to prove Dante's speeds, then he isn't tagging Sora.



Densoro said:


> Sorry, had to sleep and all that.
> 
> Anyway, this whole SOL thing smacks of Kishi's databook, where Haku is lightspeed because he reflects himself between mirrors. Which means that people who have tagged him have ONLY FIVE SECONDS to hit Pein and blah blah blah.
> 
> If Xemnas and Sora fight at lightspeed then so does Narutoverse, because they're equally nonsensical.



Don't even bring Kishimoto into this. The guy is a freakin idiot.


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## Enclave (Sep 2, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> Although, according to a wiki (yeah, I know), it states that Xemnas controls nothingness the pahse through solid matter and energy based sheilds and projectiles. Unless someone can give some information that expressly states that Xemnas manipulates light, then that could be another strike against the SOL Sora



Can't bother looking for vids and such to prove it right now since I'm using my iphones internet since my new apartment won't have internet until the 9th, but Xemnas' power is indeed nothingness.  However he also can use the powers of the other Org members and 2 previous Org members could manipulate light.

Those memebers were: Roxas and Zexion.

Also to the guy saying Sora is too physically weak?  Dude, he can bat skyscrapers like they were baseballs, he's most definitely not even remotely close to being weak.  He easily has class 100 strength.


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## Densoro (Sep 2, 2010)

Whoops, my bad, missed this. Yay for having the attention span of a gnat 



Enclave said:


> I'd address more but I don't have the time right now and looks like others have already addressed much of what you've said.
> 
> Anyways, you probably don't want to hear this but it's flying not gliding.
> 
> 5:08-5:30


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 2, 2010)

> Although, according to a wiki (yeah, I know), it states that Xemnas controls nothingness the pahse through solid matter and energy based sheilds and projectiles. Unless someone can give some information that expressly states that Xemnas manipulates light, then that could be another strike against the SOL Sora... He could still be hypersonic, but I still haven't seen evidence of Dante being such. He didn't tag Blitz in the video, so that's not proof of his speed. Dante had to kill him to procede in game, but game mechanics don't count, and besides that, there's no earthly way Dante moves even subsonic in-game. It could simply come down to Blitz jobbing. Unless someone can bring something else to prove Dante's speeds, then he isn't tagging Sora.



ehmmm...raindrop feat, the towerdive, in dmc3. the raindrop feat was calced to be mach 15 (combat speed) and the towerdive mach 10+ (movement speed). dante is in the double digits mach speed at his weakest. he can bullett time with no effort (he casually dodges a bullett in dmc4 at 1-1,5 m of distance.).he can block a punch from the saviour (lie 1000+ tons blocked) support his dead weight (some hundred of tons) and throw him some meter back. he falled from the stratosphere/outer space while beign hitted by dozens of little meteors, and still he took no damage. he can sit on fire and no burn, destroy a thing bigger than a skycraper with a schockwawe from the sword from hundreds of meters away. he's got a sick regen, some precog, mach 10+ reflexes at his weakest, can create a clone with his same powers, teleport, and other.


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## Banhammer (Sep 2, 2010)

Densoro said:


> Whoops, my bad, missed this. Yay for having the attention span of a gnat
> 
> 
> Convenient that all his flying outside of Neverland is in vaguely defined space-like environments against giant eldritch gummi ships  Especially since the moment he gets inside their presumably pressurized interiors, he's stuck on his feet again. Why keep juggling you between ground and flight controls?



When he's inside them flying would be disadvantageous. You need to get close range and having no footing is usually not so good for swordfighting.
Not that he doesn't do aerial combat, can "glide" permanently in the air and flies half a mile (figure of speech) up when he's inside xenmas for example
He also flies in KH2 with Mushu and mulan. Does that mean mushu can fart fairy dust now?
And let's look at the logic behind it. There is gravity manipulation in KH, it's one of the spells in the first two games. increasing it shoves your face into the ground to say the least why would decreasing it give you autonomous fligh instead of just making you float?
Besides,


*Spoiler*: __ 



He flies in Destiny islands during KH3


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## Enclave (Sep 2, 2010)

Densoro said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, these may not be conventional worlds, but they are worlds that obey gravity, and as Banhammer pointed out, there are examples of him flying without Tinkerbell and while not being in non-conventional worlds.  But even in the non-conventional worlds.

It's pretty undeniable that Sora learned to fly at the end of KH1.

You also mentioned that Roxas did the reversal where he denied gravity in his  mind?  Thing is, Roxas CAN fly.  He did it when he fought Sora.  Also, the fight didn't happen in his mind, it happened in his heart.  And when a Keyblade wearer does the dive to the heart they don't suddenly gain a bunch of new powers that are only accessable while in their heart.

See, Roxas throughout the intro just didn't have a very good grasp of his powers.  He had these powers, but he couldn't really use them very well until the very end of his part of the game.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 2, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> ehmmm...raindrop feat, the towerdive, in dmc3. the raindrop feat was calced to be mach 15 (combat speed) and the towerdive mach 10+ (movement speed). dante is in the double digits mach speed at his weakest. he can bullett time with no effort (he casually dodges a bullett in dmc4 at 1-1,5 m of distance.).he can block a punch from the saviour (lie 1000+ tons blocked) support his dead weight (some hundred of tons) and throw him some meter back. he falled from the stratosphere/outer space while beign hitted by dozens of little meteors, and still he took no damage. he can sit on fire and no burn, destroy a thing bigger than a skycraper with a schockwawe from the sword from hundreds of meters away. he's got a sick regen, some precog, mach 10+ reflexes at his weakest, can create a clone with his same powers, teleport, and other.



First of all, no way in hell the rain drop feat is mach 3, let alone 15. If it was, the presuure from their attacks would scatter the rain all over the place. If you notice, it falls straight. eah, they do that big final hurrah and the rain is suspended above them until their swords clash it all pours down... maybe pressure from the onsluaght, or maybe fighting aura... Or maybe the animators just though it looked bad ass...

Now the tower dive. Alice did this in Resident Evil Apocolypse... She ain't hypersonic either... He's simply running down the tower, and the only time he get's even remotely close to looking mach speeds is near the end, and if he WAS traveling that fast, as much as he's running, he would have liquified himself on the pavement. The tower wasn't fifty miles tall, and he didn't have the distance to be doing mach speeds.

I never doubted Dante's strength or durability, however I'm still waiting for hypersonic Dante...


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## Densoro (Sep 2, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> When he's inside them flying would be disadvantageous. You need to get close range and having no footing is usually not so good for swordfighting.


KH doesn't get to act like it has practical swordsmanship xD I can't tell you how many times Sora's little ballerina twirls got me assraped by Sephiroth.

And technically, spamming aerials would be more effective, since few styles have a defense against attacks from above. Plus the mobility seems to be greater, and if I remember right, most of the enemies there were flying, so...



> Not that he doesn't do aerial combat, can "glide" permanently in the air and flies half a mile (figure of speech) up when he's inside xenmas for example
> He also flies in KH2 with Mushu and mulan. Does that mean mushu can fart fairy dust now?


Are you referring to their Limit attack, a gameplay mechanic? Because I don't remember any flight in Land of Dragons 



> And let's look at the logic behind it. There is gravity manipulation in KH, it's one of the spells in the first two games. increasing it shoves your face into the ground to say the least why would decreasing it give you autonomous fligh instead of just making you float?


Thing is though, that's speculation. They never said anything about gravity magic being active during the weirder moments in the series, and I don't recall any sparkly magical effects acting up. 

I guess the thing I'm hung up on is that the whole game, it just feels like Square wanted to show off. It's not like it'd be the first time they said "screw the laws of physics." Advent Children was directed _specifically with that in mind_. So I suppose it just seems the OBD takes it all too seriously *shrug*



> Besides,
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


...Huh, really now? I haven't been able to get any info on that game, could you share without spoiling too much? o: I still don't think the verse was made with calcs in mind, but if you show me that, you'll beat me with my own logic, so I'll back off.



> You also mentioned that Roxas did the reversal where he denied gravity in his mind? Thing is, Roxas CAN fly. He did it when he fought Sora. Also, the fight didn't happen in his mind, it happened in his heart. And when a Keyblade wearer does the dive to the heart they don't suddenly gain a bunch of new powers that are only accessable while in their heart.


Really? Ever since KH1, I was under the impression that those were the trippiest places in the entire verse xD That's what I always loved about it. I didn't think it was supposed to make sense, but I'm a huge fan of surrealist art, so I thought that was the point. Never even crossed my mind to calc it


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## Banhammer (Sep 2, 2010)

> Are you referring to their Limit attack, a gameplay mechanic? Because I don't remember any flight in Land of Dragons


Yes, I'm refering to their limit. The fact that he displays autonomous flight is not a game mechanics.
I can't give you his flight speed out of it, or his altitude range, that would be game mechanics, but the fact that he has this ability isn't.




> ...Huh, really now? I haven't been able to get any info on that game, could you share without spoiling too much? o: I still don't think the verse was made with calcs in mind, but if you show me that, you'll beat me with my own logic, so I'll back off.



I can't show you. They've removed it just about everywhere from the internet, I personally cannot find it any more but it is true

*Spoiler*: __ 



 In the trailer for KH3 Sora displays his flying abilities to investigate something just before multiple Sora's start raining down from the sky


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## Densoro (Sep 2, 2010)

Hm...Meh, I'm not about to call you a liar *shrug* Guess I'll leave KH to you guys then xD


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## Banhammer (Sep 2, 2010)

hey, in all fairness, I can be wrong about this one. I've just heard it from so many sources so far...


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## Enclave (Sep 2, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> hey, in all fairness, I can be wrong about this one. I've just heard it from so many sources so far...



If you're talking about KH3, my money is that there's a secret video at the end of BBS.  I'll let you guys know in the not too distant future how accurate Banhammer is.

Assuming that's what's behind the spoiler tags that is, since I refuse to look at em.


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## Densoro (Sep 2, 2010)

That it is  Another instance of Sora flying, this time in a more concrete world. Which would counter my 'Sora had no foot-hold' deal and imply that he flies hard enough to smack building around like Superman. If you wanna be all logical about it anyway, but you guys do, so \o/


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Sep 2, 2010)

Densoro said:


> That it is  Another instance of Sora flying, this time in a more concrete world. Which would counter my 'Sora had no foot-hold' deal and imply that he flies hard enough to smack building around like Superman. If you wanna be all logical about it anyway, but you guys do, so \o/



Should we even count those alleged trailer feats?


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## Enclave (Sep 2, 2010)

Madara42 said:


> Should we even count those alleged trailer feats?



Don't see why not.


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## Densoro (Sep 2, 2010)

Like I said, I'm not gonna call him a liar. He lacks scans or whatever, oh well. If he has any self-respect, we'll see it when it comes out. If he doesn't, then he'll get the same treatment as that guy who said Getbackers were multiversal XD

Though so far, he's got a better rep than that, and I don't mean his green bar.


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## Dariustwinblade (Sep 3, 2010)

Holy shit 19 Pages, why don't we just call this an inconclusive match and be done with it.


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## Densoro (Sep 3, 2010)

Sorry for dragging it out so long ^^; It's always me coming into these saying "wtf you guys on crack? " so...


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 3, 2010)

Dariustwinblade said:


> Holy shit 19 Pages, why don't we just call this an inconclusive match and be done with it.



I second this.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 3, 2010)

> First of all, no way in hell the rain drop feat is mach 3, let alone 15. If it was, the presuure from their attacks would scatter the rain all over the place. If you notice, it falls straight. eah, they do that big final hurrah and the rain is suspended above them until their swords clash it all pours down... maybe pressure from the onsluaght, or maybe fighting aura... Or maybe the animators just though it looked bad ass...
> 
> Now the tower dive. Alice did this in Resident Evil Apocolypse... She ain't hypersonic either... He's simply running down the tower, and the only time he get's even remotely close to looking mach speeds is near the end, and if he WAS traveling that fast, as much as he's running, he would have liquified himself on the pavement. The tower wasn't fifty miles tall, and he didn't have the distance to be doing mach speeds.
> 
> I never doubted Dante's strength or durability, however I'm still waiting for hypersonic Dante...



there are other calcs that put him in the mach 7-8 range (anyway it's a casual feat).

so, inconclusive match?


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## Banhammer (Sep 3, 2010)

Hardly. If y'all can't come to an agreement the precedent stands, and that's Sora's side.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 3, 2010)

The way I see it, this battle hinges on one factor. If Xemnas actually manipulates light. If so, no reason to believe that Sora isn't at least SOL, which stomps Dante. If it's only magical light, then it could be the same as magical lightning, and means it's unlikely Sora would be SOL, and Dante could have a chance. 

If Sora won with Genie, or if he won based on the FTL arguement, then I'd still say it's inconclusive, regardless of the previous outcome.


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## Enclave (Sep 3, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> The way I see it, this battle hinges on one factor. If Xemnas actually manipulates light. If so, no reason to believe that Sora isn't at least SOL, which stomps Dante. If it's only magical light, then it could be the same as magical lightning, and means it's unlikely Sora would be SOL, and Dante could have a chance.
> 
> If Sora won with Genie, or if he won based on the FTL arguement, then I'd still say it's inconclusive, regardless of the previous outcome.



I've never gotten the difference between lightning and magical lightning.

Now, I can understand if there is a bolt of magic that looks like lightning but isn't actually called lightning, that I can understand being slower than lightning since it's not lightning.  But if somebody casts a spell that is stated to be lightning, then I'd figure that it'd have the same speed as lightning.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 3, 2010)

Enclave said:


> I've never gotten the difference between lightning and magical lightning.
> 
> Now, I can understand if there is a bolt of magic that looks like lightning but isn't actually called lightning, that I can understand being slower than lightning since it's not lightning.  But if somebody casts a spell that is stated to be lightning, then I'd figure that it'd have the same speed as lightning.



No tellin, but that's the general concensus around here... I think it's because of the nature of magics. Some spell power is weaker than others and so summons the energies at different scales. It's like Force Lightning in Star wars. No way that it's real lightning or has the properties of such as far as speed and power, but they still call it 'lightning'.


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## Enclave (Sep 3, 2010)

Ky Hakubi said:


> No tellin, but that's the general concensus around here... I think it's because of the nature of magics. Some spell power is weaker than others and so summons the energies at different scales. It's like Force Lightning in Star wars. No way that it's real lightning or has the properties of such as far as speed and power, but they still call it 'lightning'.



The strength of the lightning would vary, but I don't see why the speed would.

For instance, with Force Lightning, Jedi can block it thanks to their precog, they block before it is even fired.  That's how you can explain why a Jedi can block it even though they aren't faster than lightning.


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## Banhammer (Sep 3, 2010)

I think actually Sora won based on reflecting anything Dante dishes out.

Also, Thunder in Kingdom hearts is given much more natural attributes as it works like real electricity (ie: powered up an entire city block with it's electricity)


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## noobthemusical (Sep 3, 2010)

Just to point out Ban the game your referring to isn't KH3 it's KH3DS.
It's coming out for the 3 DS and is somehow happening in the present of the verse.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 4, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> I think actually Sora won based on reflecting anything Dante dishes out.
> 
> Also, Thunder in Kingdom hearts is given much more natural attributes as it works like real electricity (ie: powered up an entire city block with it's electricity)



Well I guess match to Sora then. Don't know if Reflect will work against Devil Arms or not, but all of Dante's ranged attacks are nullified unless he can catch Sora off guard.


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## Devil Kings (Sep 4, 2010)

Sora has nothing on Dante.


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## Enclave (Sep 4, 2010)

Devil Kings said:


> Sora has nothing on Dante.



Not in the coolness department, that's for sure.

However that's not what the battledome is about.


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## Devil Kings (Sep 4, 2010)

Enclave said:


> Not in the coolness department, that's for sure.
> 
> However that's not what the battledome is about.



Name one thing Sora has done, that puts him over Dante.


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## Banhammer (Sep 4, 2010)

Save the multiverse?
Destroyed space armadas?


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## Enclave (Sep 4, 2010)

Banhammer said:


> Save the multiverse?
> Destroyed space armadas?



Plays baseball with skyscrapers?


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## dark0 (Sep 4, 2010)

Enclave said:


> Plays baseball with skyscrapers?



This is the hyperbolic time chamber though. If you are going to use game physics; sora gets shot into the air until he's down to one health, dante can finish him before he recovers. Even if sora used an aerial recovery he would get shot in the face right after.


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## Banhammer (Sep 4, 2010)

Or he reflects that off.. Sorry bro


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## Enclave (Sep 4, 2010)

dark0 said:


> This is the hyperbolic time chamber though. If you are going to use game physics; sora gets shot into the air until he's down to one health, dante can finish him before he recovers. Even if sora used an aerial recovery he would get shot in the face right after.



First off, the skyscraper feat shows how physically strong Sora is.

Next off, do you really think bullets of all things are going to be useful against Sora?  He can deflect them back at Dante or just use Reflect which instead of deflecting the bullets back at Dante it'll just automatically damage Dante without him having the ability to even dodge the bullets.

Also, why would you want to knock Sora into the air at all?  Sora's generally more deadly in the air than he is on the ground.

It seems to me you GREATLY underestimate both Sora's strength and speed.


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## Devil Kings (Sep 4, 2010)

Has Sora ever used reflect against a boss.

Dante in dmc4 was still versatile in the air while fighting against Sanctus for the fight time.

Dante could teleport near Sora, and puts a bullet through his skull.

If were using Sora's lightning as true lightning, then Dante has also reacted to lighting when he went against the demon named Blitz.

If were saying Xenmas laser to be real laser, then Dante has also reacted to light based attacks in dmc1, and 2.


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## Enclave (Sep 4, 2010)

Devil Kings said:


> Has Sora ever used reflect against a boss.



Yes?



> Dante in dmc4 was still versatile in the air while fighting against Sanctus for the fight time.



I'm not seeing your point.



> Dante could teleport near Sora, and puts a bullet through his skull.



You're greatly underestimating Sora's speed and durability.



> If were using Sora's lightning as true lightning, then Dante has also reacted to lighting when he went against the demon named Blitz.



I'm sure others have mentioned this part earlier in the thread and I don't recall enough about Blitz to comment on this.



> If were saying Xenmas laser to be real laser, then Dante has also reacted to light based attacks in dmc1, and 2.



When did Dante react to lasers?  I'm going to need some evidence of this.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 4, 2010)

First of all, Dante hardly reacted to Blitz. Blitz charged, Dante swung, then Blitz lightning timed behind Dante and the son of Sparda hit empty air. If the fight is any indication, then Blitz jobbed.

It's that simple.

I haven't played 2, but I don't remember any light based attacks in 1. The Mundus beam was just that. A beam of demonic energy, which doesn't necessarily have the properties of photons. Given the line of sight deflection, if Dante has the ability to go full on Sparda Devil Trigger, then I can see him avoiding most all of Sora's magic.

As far as teleport, Sora does that too. 

Bullets will be reflected unless Dante catches Sora completely off guard, which will be unlikely. Besides, it's not like one bullet will be enough to put Sora down anyway. He's tanked much worse.

Dante is fast, but I seriously doubt he's anywhere close to lightspeed, and if Xemnas has the ability to control light, then there's no reason for me to doubt that Sora is.


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