# Killer vs Doflamingo



## Mariko (Oct 22, 2021)

Vote and discuss. 

Respect each other. 

@A Optimistic

Reactions: Funny 1


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## A Optimistic (Oct 22, 2021)

Killer is stronger than Doflamingo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lord Melkor (Oct 22, 2021)

Hm, Killer may take it as his cutting abilities may be useful against Doffy's strings. But it is not going to be easy fight, Doflamingo is very versatile with his fruit and has many tricks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Moldrew (Oct 22, 2021)

Doflamingo. Oda told me so.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jay. (Oct 22, 2021)

zoro couldn't cut birdcage with a black sword

can killer?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## oiety (Oct 22, 2021)

Wasn't Doflamingo shaking in his boots at the same Kaido Killer made scream in pain?

Just kidding. However, I would favor Killer here.


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## El Hit (Oct 22, 2021)

Killer, but doffy shits on Hawkins too

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Jay. (Oct 22, 2021)

the killer overhype is real

doffy can stich his organs together, has more endurance, hax abilities in long distance, can create string bunshins, guns, cages can basically also turn you into a marionette etc,

killer got oneshotted with the first santoryu attack zoro throwed at him

doffy would tank onigiri with manliness and stick himself together if it's needed

look what he did to law and law has a hax ability

also coc


killer is awesome but doffy kills him

doffy had a lot of fights in dressrosa and his disadvantage might be his lack of mma skills and stronger armanent is needed so someone like kaido would call him weak cause doffy aint a warrior and cause g4 was enough to beat him after a long ass fight people jump the gun rn but did killer show the armanent that is neccessary to not be sliced into pieces by doffys strings? tell me more about killer's defense while i watch a replay of all the attacks doffy tanked since punl hazard.

he chopped of basil's arm just like doffy did oars jr


it would be a hella interesting fight but it's not like you can't floor killer immediately

if it comes down to it doffy will stand up more often from lying down than dfpowerless killer

Reactions: Agree 4 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Pyriz (Oct 22, 2021)

Killer should definitely win this, but it will be difficult.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Cursemark (Oct 22, 2021)

Not sure how Killer would win tbh

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pyriz (Oct 22, 2021)

Cursemark said:


> Not sure how Killer would win tbh


A lot of cutting and slicing, probably.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 22, 2021)

With knowledge? Killer. He will have hard time with Doflamingos mobility and lack of range though.

Without knowledge? Doflamingo parasites and locks his limbs.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Cursemark (Oct 22, 2021)

Pyriz said:


> A lot of cutting and slicing, probably.


But shouldn't doffy be able to turn his weapons into strings with awakening? What would stop doffy from subduing and fucking him up with his awakening? He's not a long range fighter by any means.


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## Pyriz (Oct 22, 2021)

Cursemark said:


> But shouldn't doffy be able to turn his weapons into strings with awakening?


Well, Haki most likely. 


Cursemark said:


> What would stop doffy from subduing and fucking him up with his awakening? He's not a long range fighter by any means.


Well, Killer does have Observation Haki for this, but also just incredible speed and agility. A lot of the damage Luffy did against Doflamingo was from close range, and Killer's also got those supersonic attacks which arguably qualify as mid-range, and can probably bypass a lot of Doflamingo's defenses. 

Killer's sonic attack against Kaido for reference:


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## PureWIN (Oct 23, 2021)

Doffy chops Killer up into pieces. Doffy has great defenses for everything except raw ape-strength that hit him hard and fast.


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## Heart Over Blade (Oct 23, 2021)

Doffy isn't blocking the Sonic Blades that bypassed Kaidou's scales.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Amol (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer beats the shit out of him.
It probably won't even be a mid diff fight.
Low diff victory for Killer.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Corax (Oct 23, 2021)

With knowledge Killer for sure. I guess Dofla might heal some sonic blades but not sonic blade+decapitation follow up. And even Kyros was able to decapitate unaware Dofla (it was a clone,but Kyros is also weaker than Killer). The only problem might be awakening,but Killer has good stats is agile and has good feats vs Kaido who is much stronger than Dofla.


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## Yumi Zoro (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer all days, everyday.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 23, 2021)

Doflamingo was and always is a Yonkou 1 commander level. Killer can't beat the likes of King yet.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## ShadoLord (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer one shots him and decapitates him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ThatGreekLady (Oct 23, 2021)

Doffy is Cracker level in my opinion. Killer should have surpassed that level at this point.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 23, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Doflamingo was and always is a Yonkou 1 commander level. Killer can't beat the likes of King yet.


Insane wank I'm seeing here.

Anyways Killer slaughters Doflamingo

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 23, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Insane wank I'm seeing here.
> 
> Anyways Killer slaughters Doflamingo


Insane wank? Why? It took every ounce of strength  of both Law and Luffy to bring him down. Look at how Oda portrayed Doflamingo vs Luffy & Law and look how Oda portrayed people like Cracker against Luffy alone and you'll see the difference.


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 23, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Insane wank? Why? It took every ounce of strength  of both Law and Luffy to bring him down. Look at how Oda portrayed Doflamingo vs Luffy & Law and look how Oda portrayed people like Cracker against Luffy alone and you'll see the difference.


Oda Portrayed Doffy getting smacked around by Luffy in Gear 4 for round one and had him get one shot by KKG in round 2. Doffy did little to no damage to Gear 4 Luffy.

Oda Portrayed Cracker by having him get sent after Luffy with the knowledge that he had beaten Doflamingo in hand, had Luffy complement his Armament, had Cracker nearly dismember Gear 4 Luffy with one attack and had a nerfed cracker with Soft Biscuits match and equal Luffy for 11 hours before he got defeated by an amped Luffy.

Stop reading Two piece

Reactions: Agree 8 | Winner 3


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## Cursemark (Oct 23, 2021)

Pyriz said:


> Well, Haki most likely.


The problem is Killer has 0 Haki feats and lets assume Haki works, Killer wouldn't know about DD's awakening to stop it. 


Pyriz said:


> Well, Killer does have Observation Haki for this, but also just incredible speed and agility. A lot of the damage Luffy did against Doflamingo was from close range, and Killer's also got those supersonic attacks which arguably qualify as mid-range, and can probably bypass a lot of Doflamingo's defenses.


Killer hasn't really shown any special speed against noteworthy foes with good speed like Doffy. Let's not forget got blized by Zoro and wasn't overwhelming him at all in that area . Lets say he has speed to keep up or even out speed a little, he'd eventually get overwhelmed by constant barrages of attacks. 


Pyriz said:


> Killer's sonic attack against Kaido for reference:


Doffy can pretty much attack from/defend from anywhere so this range is nothing in comparison. He's too versatile and there are several ways I can see him winning.


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## blueframe01 (Oct 23, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Doflamingo was and always is a Yonkou 1 commander level. Killer can't beat the likes of King yet.


Dofla isn't anywhere near 1st commander. He was destroyed by G4 while Luffy had to go through a training arc with Katakuri, and needed Katakuri to blow a hole in his body to be able to beat him an arc later.

As for Killer, he was part of the RT, who are a group of pirates that will replace  2 Yonkous as the biggest players in the world post Wano. While Zoro probably had a better portrayal in the RT than Killer, the latter was should to be a close rival. While I view Zoro as a YC1, growing to a YC1+ by the end of Wano, I see Killer as a YC2+ Growing into a YC1 by end of Wano. 

On topic, Dofla may be more versatile in his moveset, but Killer is overall stronger. He'll overwhelm Dofla and eventually destroy him


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## Turrin (Oct 23, 2021)

Doflamingo wins. Killer beating Hawkins whose much weaker then Doffy, isn’t a feat that puts him above Doffy. Killer hurting Kaidou doesn’t put him above Doffy anymore then Kawamatsu doing the same. People need to stop

Reactions: Funny 1 | Neutral 1


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## Karma (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer is stronger than the guy that stomped Jack

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Alex Payne (Oct 23, 2021)

I find DD to be underrated pretty often but Killer is a legit powerhouse at this point. So I could see Killer winning around high diff.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Lawliet (Oct 23, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Oda Portrayed Doffy getting smacked around by Luffy in Gear 4 for round one and had him get one shot by KKG in round 2. Doffy did little to no damage to Gear 4 Luffy.
> 
> Oda Portrayed Cracker by having him get sent after Luffy with the knowledge that he had beaten Doflamingo in hand, had Luffy complement his Armament, had Cracker nearly dismember Gear 4 Luffy with one attack and had a nerfed cracker with Soft Biscuits match and equal Luffy for 11 hours before he got defeated by an amped Luffy.
> 
> Stop reading Two piece





blueframe01 said:


> Dofla isn't anywhere near 1st commander. He was destroyed by G4 while Luffy had to go through a training arc with Katakuri, and needed Katakuri to blow a hole in his body to be able to beat him an arc later.
> 
> As for Killer, he was part of the RT, who are a group of pirates that will replace  2 Yonkous as the biggest players in the world post Wano. While Zoro probably had a better portrayal in the RT than Killer, the latter was should to be a close rival. While I view Zoro as a YC1, growing to a YC1+ by the end of Wano, I see Killer as a YC2+ Growing into a YC1 by end of Wano.
> 
> On topic, Dofla may be more versatile in his moveset, but Killer is overall stronger. He'll overwhelm Dofla and eventually destroy him


That's such a narrow look on Luffy vs Doflamingo lol. 

Go reread Doflamingo vs Luffy and Law.

Doflamingo is the first villain to ever beat a Luffy who just showed us his newest power up. Remember what happened to Bluenoe on G2 reveal? G3 reveal and Lucci? 

Doflamingo actually beat Luffy in a 1 vs 10

Cracker couldn't beat Luffy and couldn't even make him bring out his strongest moves. Luffy was training on Cracker. I don't understand how you guys don't see that especially after the Katakuri fight. Luffy took WCI as a training arc.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## Whimsy (Oct 23, 2021)

It's really funny that Killer is clearly weaker than Law, a man who got his shit split by Doflamingo in the last arc he fought properly in before this one, but now people are arguing that he gets stomped. Power creep is crazy.


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## KBD (Oct 23, 2021)

DD would curb him tbh


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## Pyriz (Oct 23, 2021)

Cursemark said:


> The problem is Killer has 0 Haki feats and lets assume Haki works, Killer wouldn't know about DD's awakening to stop it.


Observation Haki should work fine against Awakening. He doesn't know about it beforehand, sure, but that's kind of the whole reason you use Observation Haki, right? To be able to see unexpected attacks coming. 


Cursemark said:


> Killer hasn't really shown any special speed against noteworthy foes with good speed like Doffy. Let's not forget got blized by Zoro and wasn't overwhelming him at all in that area . Lets say he has speed to keep up or even out speed a little, he'd eventually get overwhelmed by constant barrages of attacks.


Zoro didn't blitz him (I just re-read that chapter). He overpowered him for sure, but Killer was definitely portrayed as the faster and more agile fighter in that exchange. Speed and agility are the cornerstones of Killer's whole fighting style. Hell, in this chapter he took Hawkins' arm before he even realized what was happening, and Hawkins has Observation haki too. 


Cursemark said:


> Doffy can pretty much attack from/defend from anywhere so this range is nothing in comparison. He's too versatile and there are several ways I can see him winning.


It was mostly to show that he's not completely limited to close range, but also, I have my doubts that Doflamingo could even defend against this considering it was enough to bypass Kaido's durability.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer needs some Skywalk to go with his backflips or at least some ranged cutting attacks. It is bad for his chances against Dofla that he has to jump at you to cut you.


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## Corax (Oct 23, 2021)

Whimsy said:


> It's really funny that Killer is clearly weaker than Law, a man who got his shit split by Doflamingo in the last arc he fought properly in before this one, but now people are arguing that he gets stomped. Power creep is crazy.


Yeah but since then 300 chapters have passed. Current Killer is strong enough to avoid yonko attacks,take them,damage Kaido through his dragon hide,beat another SN with a handicap. And current Law is even stronger.


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer, like his captain, still loses but has way more material to put up a better fight than said captain generally speaking because Killer is good wherever he fights. However, DD is substantially advantaged when you look at what each party is capable of.

-Capacity to stitch cuts closed & mitigate blood-loss vs a character who will be mostly attacking with metal blades.
-Capacity to stitch together organs to retain function vs a character who can damage organs with sonic blades.
-Parasite ensnarement vs lack of a COA-backed forceful size-increase, any body-size decreasing, advanced COA tricks, advanced COC tricks, raw physical strength greater than Jozu's, or any compelling miscellaneous power that could destroy the strings without moving.
-Omnidirectional environmental control vs a character who (per SMILE) can be drowned.
-Clones who can deal fight-ending damage if they impale or slash the right spot vs a singular combatant.

Daft Punk prevailing in this last chapter hasn't shot him up to where he wins against DD, regardless of any lingering "but Rooftop!" ideation.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## TheOmega (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer strong and quick but I don't think he's quicker than DD. And I don't think he's got more what it takes to break out of Parasite.

DD: Parasite-> Awakening: God Thread-> GG


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## Perrin (Oct 23, 2021)

They can both cut a supernova’s arm off.


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## Mihawk (Oct 23, 2021)

Damn...the era has truly come when Doflamingo has become the resident poster boy for the worf effect in One Piece, and dare I say even perhaps one of the most underrated fighters.

Oda really needs to bring him back so he stops being passed by by people like he's yesterday's news  

DR Doffy probably loses to Killer, but I believe that Prison Gains Doffy would fucking molest the Massacre Soldier 

Also Doffy isn't YC1 from what he showed...he likely wasn't anywhere close to that, but honestly neither is Killer and he hasn't shown me anything that makes me feel like he is.


That being said, I wonder if people would go claiming Hawkins is Doffy level too  There was a time when ^ (use bro) were claiming every F6 was stronger than Doffy


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## Kamisori (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer is stronger than DR Doflamingo, but not stronger than prison gains Doflamingo.


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## Lord Melkor (Oct 23, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> That being said, I wonder if people would go claiming Hawkins is Doffy level too  There was a time when ^ (use bro) were claiming every F6 was stronger than Doffy



I think Doffy would beat like three members of the Flying Six at the same time. Among the Beast Pirates, I see him only losing to King and Queen. And Kaidou of course. 

People focus on his problems against Gear 4 Luffy, but his hax and mobility are really good. Plus he tanked a lot of attacks from both Luffy and Law.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kinjin (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Killer, like his captain, still loses but has way more material to put up a better fight than said captain generally speaking because Killer is good wherever he fights. However, DD is substantially advantaged when you look at what each party is capable of.
> 
> -Capacity to stitch cuts closed & mitigate blood-loss vs a character who will be mostly attacking with metal blades.
> -Capacity to stitch together organs to retain function vs a character who can damage organs with sonic blades.
> ...


Kid below Doflamingo? 

Killer wins mid-high vs Doffy. Kid makes even quicker work of him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Karma (Oct 23, 2021)

Kinjin said:


> Kid below Doflamingo?
> 
> Killer wins mid-high vs Doffy. Kid makes even quicker work of him.


The same G4 Luffy that rag dolled Doffy got 1 shot by Meme who has been fighting Kidd for the better part of an hour

Doffy wanker r outta control

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Kinjin said:


> Kid below Doflamingo?
> 
> Killer wins mid-high vs Doffy. Kid makes even quicker work of him.


Well yea, Kidd is below Doflamingo. Quick work how?

-Kidd requires preparation to gather large amounts of metal trash that may not even be available in any given setting.
-Without metal, Kidd has no particularly articulated CQC skills or tricks. Is Kidd going to whip out the Rokougan and ACOA?
-Kidd has no showcasing of Hardening, which is unfortunate against a character (DD) who doesn't solely rely on blunt force to fight. Hardening would help greatly to avoid bleeding-out/_further_ limb loss/becoming swiss-cheese/etc.
-Kidd's counter(s) to Parasite = ??? The power of love?
-Kidd's raw bodily strength doesn't appear to be superior to DD's in any honest evaluation of Kidd's showings.
-Kidd _obviously_ isn't at DD's level of speed or mobility.
-Metal not connected to Kidd (aka not protected via COA), _if present_, gets reality-warped into string per Awakening. Kidd visibly has enjoyed attacking with _projected_ metal, and he'd lose wads of cans and spoons as the fight went on while being limited to mecha-smashes.
-If Apoo could spring up from a *100% undefended surprise Punk Gibson*, I doubt DD is getting wrecked by attacks like that *when defending* and with his _greater_ capacity to block/dodge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Well yea, Kidd is below Doflamingo. Quick work how?
> 
> -Kidd requires preparation to gather large amounts of metal trash that may not even be available in any given setting.
> -Without metal, Kidd has no particularly articulated CQC skills or tricks. Is Kidd going to whip out the Rokougan and ACOA?
> ...


you are right, Kidds feats are TRASH except for ~endurance .. he has almost nothing to show still

but he must still be above DD at this point, blame Oda


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> you are right, Kidds feats are TRASH except for ~endurance .. he has almost nothing to show still
> 
> but he must still be above DD at this point, blame Oda


Kidd is important for Wano as an arc, but even the portrayal people often near-singularly cling to can't just _erase his actual story actions_, _actual_ abilities, _actual_ weaknesses, etc, in such hypothetical _plot-less_ matchups. Like, one has to actively ignore everything about these combatants' traits and focus mainly on vague plot-perpetuating vibes from the manga to suggest Kidd *objectively* wins matches like this.

If Killer wasn't stated to be Kidd's subordinate and all the combat-relevant manga activity otherwise remained the same, I'd have him above Kidd.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Karma (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Like, one has to actively ignore everything about these combatants' traits and focus mainly on vague plot-perpetuating vibes from the manga to suggest Kidd *objectively* wins matches like this.


U literally ignored the entirety of his performance against Meme to help make ur case against him.

What happens wen he beats her? U gonna rank Apoo above Meme?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

We are almost in 2022 and Doflamingo is still being wanked and overrated.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Karma said:


> U literally ignored the entirety of his performance against Meme to help make ur case against him.


 What is the entirety of his performance there?* What can you articulate Kidd having done*, actually accomplished, against Big Meme? And again, "Big Meme". A character Oda has shown _(time and time again)_ zero regard for maintaining respect for _even_ in realms of combat, despite her station as a Yonko. Kidd *and Law *engaging Big Meme in 'some sort of ways at length & off-panel', as a concept in a vacuum, is not sufficient for me. At all, especially in discourse about imaginary matchups stripped of plot.


Karma said:


> What happens *wen** he beats her*? U gonna rank Apoo above Meme?


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## Karma (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> What is the entirety of his performance there?* What can you articulate Kidd having done*, actually accomplished, against Big Meme? And again, "Big Meme". A character Oda has shown _(time and time again)_ zero regard for maintaining respect for _even_ in realms of combat, despite her station as a Yonko. Kidd *and Law *engaging Big Meme in 'some sort of ways at length & off-panel', as a concept in a vacuum, is not sufficient for me. At all, especially in discourse about imaginary matchups stripped of plot.


Kidd was defenseless on the ground while Meme used a name attack on him in the recent chapter.

Unless u think Doffy's strings > Named attack from Meme then Doffy strings aint doing jack to Kidd.
Ill make BD thread after the fights over.

Cant wait to hear abt Kidd's PG not downing Apoo after hes done with Meme

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 23, 2021)

lolwut

Killer is pushing YC1 at least, DD is lucky to be counted as YC3

Let it go guys, DD is soon to be Franky tier

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

Parasite


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Parasite


Rotating blades


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Karma said:


> Kidd was defenseless on the ground while Meme used a name attack on him in the recent chapter.
> 
> Unless u think Doffy's strings > Named attack from Meme then Doffy strings aint doing jack to Kidd.


*Highly *doubtful Big Mom's sword made contact with Kidd's body. Not only do we *not see any contact*, but Kidd is facing Big Mom while she's striking and _then is on his stomach facing *away*_ from her with his back smoking after she struck. The reasonable interpretation of that scene is that Kidd was caught in the elemental (lightning) blast of the strike, and *not actually hit by the blade itself*. It's also amazing that you'd think Big Mom's cutting power_ would be so low_ as to fail to scratch an _unHardened target_ with a fleshy human body.

DD's strings have ample material showcasing their sharpness, obviously they are a huge danger to Kidd's body.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> *Highly *doubtful Big Mom's sword made contact with Kidd's body. Not only do we *not see any contact*, but Kidd is facing Big Mom while she's striking and _then is on his stomach facing *away*_ from her with his back smoking after she struck. The reasonable interpretation of that scene is that Kidd was caught in the elemental (lightning) blast of the strike, and *not actually hit by the blade itself*. It's also amazing that you'd think Big Mom's cutting power_ would be so low_ as to fail to scratch an _unHardened target_ with a fleshy human body.
> 
> DD's strings have ample material showcasing their sharpness, obviously they are a huge danger to Kidd's body.



So now you're arguing that Big Mom missed? A Yonko is incapable of hitting a target that can't move?

C'mon bro.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> So now you're arguing that Big Mom is missed? A Yonko is incapable of hitting a target that can't move?
> 
> C'mon bro.


Are we about to pretend as if Big Mom has been batting a thousand this series? Yes, she missed with the blade and tagged Kidd with the lightning she produced. Additionally, Big Mom being a Yonko didn't stop Oda from doing most of the goofy shit he's done with her up until now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Karma (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> It's also amazing that you'd think Big Mom's cutting power_ would be so low_ as to fail to scratch an _unHardened target_ with a fleshy human body


Or, heres a crazy idea, Kidd is just strong enough to tank the attack?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Are we about to pretend as if Big Mom has been batting a thousand this series? Yes, she missed with the blade and tagged Kidd with the lightning she produced. Additionally, Big Mom being a Yonko didn't stop Oda from doing most of the goofy shit he's done with her up until now.



When has Big Mom ever missed a target that hasn't moved before? We've seen her miss attacks on people that are moving, we've never seen her miss a stationary target before.


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> When has Big Mom ever missed a target that hasn't moved before? We've seen her miss attacks on people that are moving, we've never seen her miss a stationary target before.


Kidd was literally getting up while she was in the air though

It's possible he partially dodged her


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Karma said:


> Or, heres a crazy idea, Kidd is just strong enough to tank the attack?


It would indeed be crazy because what you're suggesting doesn't make a lick of sense. Characters without alternate/supplemental forms of defense (exoskeletons, mutant skin/flesh, scales, etc) need to put in effort to defend against high level cutting, which is exactly what Big Mom should be working with. Most characters _much stronger than Kidd_ likely cannot just treat a Yonko's sword-slash like a blunt punch. Oda showed the reader the lightning being generated in this interaction's case, so it's not a major mystery how Kidd could still end up flopping on his stomach despite *not* getting sliced.


A Optimistic said:


> When has Big Mom ever missed a target that *hasn't moved* before? We've seen her miss attacks on people that are moving, we've never seen her miss a stationary target before.


You're going with *an assumption* Kidd was suffering complete paralysis and couldn't flop his ass out the way of Napoleon itself. His arm at least worked fine since he was grabbing his head, so I think with his limited movement, Kidd narrowly avoided Napoleon's metal and not the lightning. Any usable feat for you here would be Kidd surviving the lightning. While the image of Kidd getting 'slashed' in the front, twirling, then falling on his stomach _away from the attacker_ is funny, I don't think that happened.


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## Canute87 (Oct 23, 2021)

Heart Over Blade said:


> Doffy isn't blocking the Sonic Blades that bypassed Kaidou's scales.



What if his strings can do it.  His strings seem to block wave patterns as evident with the birdcage.


Flamingo has way more abilities here, clones, range,  awakening, his strings are sharper than Killer's swords.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Rotating blades


and for Kidd? How does he counter parasite?


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> and for Kidd? How does he counter parasite?



kidd/law/zoro can break out of parasite with sheer brute strength. for crying out loud, a dressrosa luffy was able to do that


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> kidd/law/zoro can break out of parasite with sheer brute strength. for crying out loud, a dressrosa luffy was able to do that


Jozu couldnt  

G4 transformation increases size, thats how


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Jozu couldnt
> 
> G4 transformation increases size, thats how



jozu is weaker than the 3 people i listed. 

you honestly think law can't break out of parasite with his own brute strength?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> jozu is weaker than the 3 people i listed.
> 
> you honestly think law can't break out of parasite with his own brute strength?


I dont know  

But he has teleport so he can always escape any kind of "trap" easily


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## Pyriz (Oct 23, 2021)

Kid could also just use his metal arm to punch Doflamingo or rip the string out or something. Just because he can't move his body doesn't mean he can't still manipulate metal. I'm not even sure why this became a discussion about Kid vs Doflamingo in the first place, but portrayal would suggest that Kid is well above Doflamingo's level.


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I dont know
> 
> But he has teleport so he can always escape any kind of "trap" easily



a super law fan dehyping law's own base stats

tragic


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> a super law fan dehyping law's own base stats
> 
> tragic


Im no wanker like you


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Im no wanker like you



you're literally wanking doflamingo now lmao

law would destroy doflamingo even if you took away his fruit

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> you're literally wanking doflamingo now lmao
> 
> law would destroy doflamingo even if you took away his fruit


I got you to defend Law

Reactions: Funny 1


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> I got you to defend Law



ive got no problem defending him, hes a clear yc1 along with kidd and zoro  

nothing more, nothing less. i just want oda to give him less spotlight temporarily and give the other supernova a bit more spotlight to make it more balanced.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

Law cannot lift and throw a giant iceberg with brute arm strength


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

why not? dont let that twink body fool you

jozu with all his physical strength only gave aokiji a bloody lip and crocodile was still conscious after his named his attack. his strength is cute for a yc2 but law has surpassed him in every category.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Canute87 (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> jozu is weaker than the 3 people i listed.
> 
> you honestly think law can't break out of parasite with his own brute strength?


He had issues just breaking out of flamingo's own grip when he sawed his arm off.


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## A Optimistic (Oct 23, 2021)

Canute87 said:


> He had issues just breaking out of flamingo's own grip when he sawed his arm off.



that was a dressrosa law

current law can defeat a dressrosa law and doflamingo at the same time


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## blueframe01 (Oct 23, 2021)

Lol.. people are arguing that Big Mam missed a stationary target to justify not giving Kid his deserved feat? 

No wonder he's still being compared to a scrub like Dofla

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

blueframe01 said:


> Lol.. people are arguing that Big Mam missed a stationary target to justify not giving Kid his deserved feat?
> 
> No wonder he's still being compared to a scrub like Dofla


Standom can do a number on the mind. It shouldn't be so easy for a longtime reader to think Big Mom, an unimpaired Yonko who proved she can match Kaido, made contact with her blade against Kidd's undefended skin and did *nothing*. The contortions necessary to think Kidd didn't just flop away from the blade while getting fried a bit by the lightning are something, as the body positioning isn't on your side.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 23, 2021)

He got laid out though, but got back up 

Same as Law from the bagua (stronger bagua than the one that KOd G4)


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## Datassassin (Oct 23, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> He got laid out though, but got back up
> 
> Same as Law from the bagua (stronger bagua than the one that KOd G4)


Kidd's reaction looks consistent with other instances of lightning frying people in Wano, because if the sword met his flesh, then the sword strike (from the same woman who can do Ikoku, and who cut through Jinbe's Hardening in an uber-weakened state) would have failed on its own.


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## Great Potato (Oct 23, 2021)

Killer slices him up


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## Piecesis (Oct 23, 2021)

Why is this even a match? 

If we're going to start claiming Dofla is YC1 then cracker is YC1+ and Katakuri who was fighting a stronger G4 luffy is FM+++++++ AKA Admiral level.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Perrin (Oct 23, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


> When has Big Mom ever missed a target that hasn't moved before? We've seen her miss attacks on people that are moving, we've never seen her miss a stationary target before.


hm.., there’s probably a few, that i can remember though:
Soul Pocus. Jinbei. The lad stood there.
Becoming PK. The goal stood there for 20 years.


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## charles101 (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Doflamingo was and always is a Yonkou 1 commander level. Killer can't beat the likes of King yet.


...

That's why BM send her 3rd strongest commander after Luffy who just beat the shet out of Doflamingo...?


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## Perrin (Oct 24, 2021)

charles101 said:


> ...
> 
> That's why BM send her 3rd strongest commander after Luffy who just beat the shet out of Doflamingo...?


It comes across subtlety showing Oda’s delicate layering of characters to build up an eventual profile with nuances here and there, but if you read between the lines - shes a moron, and so wouldn’t out much stick into her wisdom or lack thereof in her choices.


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## charles101 (Oct 24, 2021)

Perrin said:


> It comes across subtlety showing Oda’s delicate layering of characters to build up an eventual profile with nuances here and there, but if you read between the lines - shes a moron, and so wouldn’t out much stick into her wisdom or lack thereof in her choices.


She may be moron sometimes but she's stated to have the best intel she can possibly get on whatever. There's no way she didn't know how strong Doflamingo is. Especially since she sent her ship close to Dressrosa not that long before


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 24, 2021)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> and for Kidd? How does he counter parasite?


You mean the guy who overpowered an attack from Big Mom? I think he'll he fine lol


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

charles101 said:


> ...
> 
> That's why BM send her 3rd strongest commander after Luffy who just beat the shet out of Doflamingo...?


This is such a narrow logic I can't debate it.

How many people were sent after Luffy after he just beat someone stronger?

Almort every arc


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## charles101 (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> This is such a narrow logic I can't debate it.
> 
> How many people were sent after Luffy after he just beat someone stronger?
> 
> Almort every arc


But was it stated they're send especially because Luffy defeated someone? Can't think of other situation like this. Maybe when WG send Kuma after him because he beat Lucci. And Kuma is easily stronger of the two


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> This is such a narrow logic I can't debate it.
> 
> How many people were sent after Luffy after he just beat someone stronger?
> 
> Almort every arc


BM has top tier inteligency, she's clearly good at evaluating threats. 

Besides, her choice proved to be right, Cracker was indeed capable of beating Luffy at that time and he was clearly superior to DD.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Beast (Oct 24, 2021)

Killer might 1shot.


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

charles101 said:


> But was it stated they're send especially because Luffy defeated someone? Can't think of other situation like this. Maybe when WG send Kuma after him because he beat Lucci. And Kuma is easily stronger of the two


Big Mom sending Cracker is not an indication of how strong Cracker is in comparison to Doffy. It's just BM's perception. I am not going to debate this. Every strong character in One Piece would never admit inferiority to another strong character.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> It's just BM's perception


That happens to be right. Cracker almost amputated Luffy with one attack. Doflamingo couldn't do that with his strongest attack.

Delusional ass


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## MrPopo (Oct 24, 2021)

Killer stomps doffy


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## MrPopo (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Big Mom sending Cracker is not an indication of how strong Cracker is in comparison to Doffy. It's just BM's perception. I am not going to debate this. Every strong character in One Piece would never admit inferiority to another strong character.


Cracker has better feats against G4 Luffy than Doffy


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## Perrin (Oct 24, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Cracker has better feats against G4 Luffy than Doffy


Nah. Luffy only needed Nami to beat Cracker, for Doffy he needed Law.


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## MrPopo (Oct 24, 2021)

Perrin said:


> Nah. Luffy only needed Nami to beat Cracker, for Doffy he needed Law.


+ the seducing woods and Nami was a hard counter cracker

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> That happens to be right. Cracker almost amputated Luffy with one attack. Doflamingo couldn't do that with his strongest attack.
> 
> Delusional ass


Luffy countered Doffy's strongest with his strongest, the attack he didn't think was necessarily to defeat Cracker. 

Cracker used swords, and his CoA was indeed stronger than Doffy's, doesn't mean he is stronger than Doffy. How many opponents did Luffy beat that had stronger Haki than him? 

Doffy would beat Cracker 10 times out of 10.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Cracker has better feats against G4 Luffy than Doffy


No, Cracker has better OVERPOWERING feats than Doffy. Cracker is a powerhouse, that was his thing and it's why Luffy tried taking him head on to improve his strength. Luffy was not fighting Cracker the same way he was fighting Doffy.


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## MrPopo (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> No, Cracker has better OVERPOWERING feats than Doffy. Cracker is a powerhouse, that was his thing and it's why Luffy tried taking him head on to improve his strength. Luffy was not fighting Cracker the same way he was fighting Doffy.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 24, 2021)

@Lawliet cringe


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 24, 2021)

@Lawliet best word vomit I've seen today


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> No, Cracker has better OVERPOWERING feats than Doffy. Cracker is a powerhouse, that was his thing and it's why Luffy tried taking him head on to improve his strength. Luffy was not fighting Cracker the same way he was fighting Doffy.


Wat in the what? Even if you're right, what difference does it make? Doflamingo is not exactly overpowering Cracker who can make 5 regenerating biscuits, each stronger than G3. Doffy isn't even going to break a single one of his biscuits, he dies without ever seeing Cracker's face. 
Cracker low-diffs Doflamingo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 24, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Wat in the what? Even if you're right, what difference does it make? Doflamingo is not exactly overpowering Cracker who can make 5 regenerating biscuits, each stronger than G3. Doffy isn't even going to break a single one of his biscuits, he dies without ever seeing Cracker's face.
> Cracker low-diffs Doflamingo.





Datassassin said:


> As a baseline, the process of Awakening is the mild reality-warping of inanimate matter into the production of a person's DF, as if from their own body. The only way to stop a piece of matter from being affected by Awakening should be Haki application like with DF powers otherwise, meaning the dispersed Biscuit Soldiers of Cracker's should be fully vulnerable to transformation into strings (just like DD turned full-buildings/earth into strings). A counterpoint of course could be "well Cracker could put COA in the soldiers", but we've a) never had a case of remote non-Awakening COA application + B) that process of spreading COA out over many soldiers for a fight would be draining on one's Haki reserves & it's not a feat I'd be willing to just give to Cracker for no reason. The process of using one's DF through Awakening is likely far easier and less draining than sustaining COA remotely over many people-sized masses for a whole battle.
> 
> The soldiers are also an incredibly linear defense; strings can go around, under, over, and through their guards to reach Cracker. He would be very compelled to leave his biscuit soldier in order to better maneuver around the omnidirectional strings, especially when the ground beneath his feet becomes string and he can be flipped or tossed.
> 
> ...


TLDR of the relevant old response I'm quoting = "DD has multiple feasible routes to overcome Biscuit Soldiers, and it looks like an unfortunate matchup for Cracker."


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 24, 2021)

When crackers Haki cancels out awakening's effects on Biscuit soldiers


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Wat in the what? Even if you're right, what difference does it make? Doflamingo is not exactly overpowering Cracker who can make 5 regenerating biscuits, each stronger than G3. Doffy isn't even going to break a single one of his biscuits, he dies without ever seeing Cracker's face.
> Cracker low-diffs Doflamingo.


Yeah Doffy wouldn't overpower Cracker head on, he would cut them one by one eventually and win. You're all under simple "next villain is stronger" logic. It doesn't apply here.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 24, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> When crackers Haki cancels out awakening's effects on Biscuit soldiers





Datassassin said:


> A counterpoint of course could be "well Cracker could put COA in the soldiers", but* we've a) never had a case of remote non-Awakening COA application + B) that process of spreading COA out over many soldiers for a fight would be draining on one's Haki reserves & it's not a feat I'd be willing to just give to Cracker for no reason. The process of using one's DF through Awakening is likely far easier and less draining than sustaining COA remotely over many people-sized masses for a whole battle.*


^When a projectile is imbued with COA (like an arrow or bullet), nothing has suggested the COA is retained for any sort of period that could be described as 'long'. The COA surely dissipates _within moments_ off pre and post-skip depictions of COA (bar the anomaly of the permanent blade blackening phenomena in Yoru/Shusui).

In the case of Biscuit Soldiers, the person isn't even in contact with the target they'd be imbuing with COA. The *only* case of COA coating happening without physical contact with the target in this story has been through the Awakening mechanism, which involves treating the world as the fighter's body.

Furthermore, _even if we pretend for a second that Cracker gets this remote COA ability_ "just because" and in opposition to the canonical precedent, we know how draining COA expenditure can be. Every character has a different finite pool of it. Compared to the often _free-seeming_ DF power usage (as characters who are actively drained by the activation of their general DF powers are an extreme & visible minority, like Law), it should be easier to activate and use Awakening for DD (who did so canonically in shambles) than it is for an alternate-universe Cracker to keep all his soldiers coated in COA.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Incognitos (Oct 24, 2021)

Killer is a tier bellow Zoro just as kid is a tier bellow Luffy. Doflamingo has a wide degree of variety and killer is about as linear a fighter as Zoro but his base stats are much better than doflamingos. We're too far past dresscosa and the tiers have inflated too much. I don't see doflamingo harming kaido at all while killer gave it a shot. 

Imo killer is a tier bellow Zoro (who I have at yc1). 
Luffy - Admiral
Kidd - Legend (whatever you have between admiral and yonk first mate)
Zoro - Yonko first mate
Killer - YC2
Doflamingo - low YC2 or high yc3. 

I'd say killer wins extremely high diff just due to better endurance and probably better CoA and CoO.


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## Great Potato (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Yeah Doffy wouldn't overpower Cracker head on, he would cut them one by one eventually and win. You're all under simple "next villain is stronger" logic. It doesn't apply here.



What is he using to cut them down one by one? Is Cracker just going to watch as Doflamingo attempts to take them down one at a time?

_Eventually _working them down one by one doesn't exactly get him any results here because the biscuits can reform and respawn. If he takes down one biscuit it would already be reformed by the time he works down the second.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> What is he using to cut them down one by one? Is Cracker just going to watch as Doflamingo attempts to take them down one at a time?
> 
> _Eventually _working them down one by one doesn't exactly get him any results here because the biscuits can reform and respawn. If he takes down one biscuit it would already be reformed by the time he works down the second.


Cracker uses energy to produce soldiers. That's first of all, he can't just spam them for days without breaking a sweat. 

If we're going towards this narrow logic you guy are using, alright. Doflamingo flies in the air and shoots infinite strings towards cracker, what can cracker do?


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Yeah Doffy wouldn't overpower Cracker head on, he would cut them one by one eventually and win. You're all under simple "next villain is stronger" logic. It doesn't apply here.


He would cut the biscuits that even Kong Gun didn't break? How is that? And how does cutting infinite biscuits help in anyway?


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## Lawliet (Oct 24, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> He would cut the biscuits that even Kong Gun didn't break? How is that? And how does cutting infinite biscuits help in anyway?


You guys think this is pokemon or something? You guys debate power levels like Character A uses water so he is > Character B who uses fire. But Chracter B has a whole set of skills , not just water.


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## Great Potato (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Cracker uses energy to produce soldiers. That's first of all, he can't just spam them for days without breaking a sweat.
> 
> If we're going towards this narrow logic you guy are using, alright. Doflamingo flies in the air and shoots infinite strings towards cracker, what can cracker do?



It will take much more energy for Doflamingo to destroy a biscuit that steamrolled base Luffy than it will for Cracker to clap his hands and make a new soldier. Cracker only even had to keep producing more against Luffy because he found a way to take them off the playing field altogether by eating them, otherwise he can just regenerate them, and he still kept up the spawning them for 11 hours straight.

Doflamingo isn't going to accomplish anything by flying in the air shooting down silly string on a wall of soldiers that can hold out and advance forward through a Kong Organ. It's not even in character for Doflamingo to do that, while it is in character for Cracker to overwhelm his opponent with an army of regenerating Biscuit Knights.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> You guys think this is pokemon or something? You guys debate power levels like Character A uses water so he is > Character B who uses fire. But Chracter B has a whole set of skills , not just water.


You guys?

Brother you said DD would cut Cracker's infinite biscuits one by one and eventually win. I doubt he can even cut a single one and apparently you also don't think so since you avoid explaining how exactly DD is cutting biscuit clones that Kong Gun didn't break and that overpowered and pushed back Kong Organ

You can act superior all you want, fact is, Cracker's haki is much stronger than DD's, he's faster, stronger and DD has no way of even reaching his real body.


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 24, 2021)

Dumbass will apply his headcanon to how a characters powers work then act like he just made sense


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## Great Potato (Oct 24, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> You guys think this is pokemon or something? You guys debate power levels like Character A uses water so he is > Character B who uses fire. But Chracter B has a whole set of skills , not just water.



What does this even mean? I'm pretty sure most Pokemon have dozens of different moves they can learn and the story has you defeating your rival who has the direct counter of the Pokemon you chose.


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 24, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> the dispersed Biscuit Soldiers of Cracker's should be fully vulnerable to transformation into strings (just like DD turned full-buildings/earth into strings).


Do you have proof awakening works on DF created objects? I highly doubt awakening completely nullifies guys like Magelann, Mr 1,Hawkins,Pica, Akainu etc.  Regardless, Cracker also has awakening since he was able to turn the ground into biscuit soldiers,so it's pointless for Doffy to turn the soldiers into strings, Cracker just turns them back into bisquits.







Datassassin said:


> The soldiers are also an incredibly linear defense; strings can go around, under, over, and through their guards to reach Cracker. He would be very compelled to leave his biscuit soldier in order to better maneuver around the omnidirectional strings, especially when the ground beneath his feet becomes string and he can be flipped or tossed.


His strings are not doing anything to the bisquits no matter omnidirectional they are, since they can't pierce them. Cracker has 0 reasons to ever leave them unless his opponent is strong enough to destroy them which Doffy isn't.


Datassassin said:


> Separately, there's the issue of the soldier being able to be wrapped in Parasite, which would certainly influence Cracker to abandon his paralyzed Crackerbot (lest he enjoy just getting whittled away at for the rest of the battle, if not drowned). There's also of course the disparity in mobility or range to consider.


Why would parasite work on bisquits? Have Doffy ever used parasite on non-living beings? That doesn't even make sense if he could.



Datassassin said:


> The idea that the Holy Assassin bullets, as DD's "ultimate move", can collectively get through the armor is openly an assumption. There exists no *real* way to assess the strength of that move because it was bested by a move of Luffy's that would crash through *anything* Cracker had as well


Cracker and his biscuits have better feats of hurting G4 Luffy, so it makes no sense to assume Doffy's ultimate move is strong enough to pierce his armor.



Lawliet said:


> Yeah Doffy wouldn't overpower Cracker head on, he would cut them one by one eventually and win. You're all under simple "next villain is stronger" logic. It doesn't apply here.


He can't cut the bisquits in the first place, I go by which character has the best feats, which just happens to be the next villian. Doffy has shown 0 feats that suggets he can cut Cracker's bisquits.

You're also neglecting the fact that even if he could, his bisquits instantly regenerate AND Cracker can just instantly create entirely new bisquits by turning the ground into bisquits the moment he claps, so taking them down one by one is pointless. it's like trying to cut the ocean with a scissors. You're never getting anywhere. And no, it doesn't require much energy from Cracker as evident by the fact he did this for 11 hours.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Breadman (Oct 24, 2021)

....
....
....

How does Killer beat Doflamingo when he can't fly?


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 24, 2021)

By jumping

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Strobacaxi (Oct 24, 2021)

Breadman said:


> ....
> ....
> ....
> 
> How does Killer beat Doflamingo when he can't fly?


How does Shanks beat Doflamingo when he can't fly?

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Great Potato (Oct 24, 2021)

According to the OPBD Doflamingo is a sniper who prefers to fight his battles by retreating to the sky and spamming ranged attacks from afar. In actuality Doflamingo has resorted to this tactic a grand total of 0 times even when clearly outmatched, every fight Doflamingo has been in he has opted to get close and personal with the enemy.

Smoker, Sanji, Law (Round 1 & 2), and the initial bout with Luffy he fought staying close the majority of the time. Even when confronted by Fujitora he tried kicking the guy, and even after being manhandled and ragdolled across the city by Gear 4th his immediate response was to run over and kick him, and when Luffy entered his 2nd Round of G4 Doflamingo still thought it was a good idea to try chasing him into the sky to stay in close proximity.

Doflamingo is most comfortable mid to close range and that's effectively where he always keeps his fights. Sniper Doflamingo who retreats to the stratosphere to start slinging range attacks is a character that only exists in people's battledome head-canon. Not that those attacks would be dealing with Killer anyways.

Here is Cavendish casually intercepting and blocking all of his bullet strings...



Here is Law stopping Overheat by just holding his sword out...






Even entertaining the fantasy idea that Doflamingo will be retreating and camping in the sky, I don't see these techniques giving him results against the guy who can swat aside Kaido's razor wind with ease. In character Doflamingo is more likely to try running up and kicking him and end with a missing leg for his efforts.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 7


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## icyBankai (Oct 24, 2021)

We'd have to ask Kaido. Killer apparently injured him with sonic blades while he said Doffy was too damn weak.

Also had Doffy sweat an ocean at the mention of possibly angering his boss Kaido.

Doffy was hot shit years ago during his reign. Nowadays, not so much.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## LaniDani (Oct 25, 2021)

LMAO.Killer loses.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 3


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## trance (Oct 25, 2021)

everyone from the RT5 is stronger than doffy

Reactions: Agree 7 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## MYJC (Oct 25, 2021)

The Doflamingo downplay on this forum is disgusting. 

DD wins. Parasite and Awakering are just too much for Killer, he gets overwhelmed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 25, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Matter created by DFs isn't inherently special in a relevant way; it's generally no more or less susceptible to the effects of another DF than anything else in the OPverse. Mr. 3 made a mass of wax with his DF, & Magellan saturated that mass with the liquid poison from his own DF as he did _everything else_ in Impel Down. Katakuri turned parts of the Mirror World into mochi with his DF, despite the Mirror World arguably being a product of the Mirror DF itself.


There is a difference between putting poison on wax and turning wax into poison, Magelann never did the latter which you're claiming Doflamingo could do but with strings. Also, considering Brulee has 0 control inside the mirror world it doesn't seem like the dimension was created from her powers, just that it's only reachable with her powers. Like how Blueno could reach the air dimension, which he obviously didn't create either. I'm still waiting for proof that awakening can nullify certain DF's completely. We don't even know how they work, yet here you are acting like it's perfectly natural for us to assume awakening can render certain abilities completely useless.



Datassassin said:


> The problems with using the biscuit-covered ground there, in that way, are layered. One is that Cracker's power is "general biscuit generation" and not "biscuit soldier generation", so he's capable of using biscuits in ways beyond the formation of Crackerbots. Covering a surface with biscuits didn't mean he was using Awakening, which would instead be the explicit *transformation* of existing separate matter into biscuits.


He didn't cover the surface with bisquits, he transformed the surface into biscuits.  Where would the bisquits come from in the first place if not the ground, considering Luffy ate them all. The air?



Datassassin said:


> Another problem with holding up that panel as some sort of evidence of Cracker having Awakening lay in the utter lack of narrative acknowledgement of any Awakening usage in that fight. Neither Luffy nor Cracker makes any claim of it during the fight, and *most damningly, Luffy flashes back to Doflamingo upon seeing Katakuri's Awakening in 882— not Cracker*, who he just tangoed with in the same arc and was surely still fresh in his mind.


Considering that it would be stupidly OP if Cracker could make an endless amount of bisquits instead of just 6, which he could if his awakening worked the same as Doffy's it probably doesn't. An awakened Cracker would easily be the strongest in the series if this was how his awakening worked. We still don't know how awakening works, even for paramecias. If not awakening, what else could make him turn the ground into bisquits? Also it has not been confirmed if Akainu and Aokiji used awakening, so not sure why you're saying it's inarguable.

Cracker didn't bleed, he specifically told Luffy it was just jam from his bisquit as we even see there is no blood from his mouth but plenty of jam from his bisqut.




Datassassin said:


> I'm genuinely unclear on what you're basing the soldiers supreme impenetrability on here. Bear in mind a *single* Kong Gun broke the Biscuit Armor's shield, hit Cracker inside, and made him *bleed* on top of knocking him away. It's extremely unlikely that a single Biscuit Soldier has greater defense than a Biscuit Armor operated from within by Cracker himself. It stands to reason they'd be _less_ durable, if there's any difference to be found.


Cracker didn't bleed, he specifically told Luffy it was just jam from his bisquit as we even see there is no blood from his mouth at all but plenty of jam from his bisqut.

Luffy only broke the bisquits when they weren't defending, they were perfectly capable of defending against an Organ Gun:  



Until you can showcase DD blocking a G4 attack without being pushed back or injured, like Cracker, you have no case for DD being more durable than Cracker or his bisquits. Cracker's armanent haki got praised by Luffy,something that never happened to DD.


Datassassin said:


> DD wouldn't need to use blunt force against these biscuit constructs, and instead has access to the powers of piercing, cutting, entanglement, compression, etc. Biscuit Soldiers can be tossed aside or flipped over when the setting gets transformed into waves of strings on the scale of residential blocks, and paralyzed in string _beyond the realistic outcome of them just being transformed into string_.


Piercing and cutting doesn't ignore durability, neither does anything else in DD's arsenal. Doffy cannot toss aside someone much stronger than G3 Luffy, nor can he paralyse or transform someone capable of blocking G4 Luffy's attack. Even if DD broke his bisquit, Craker simply claps his hands and it regenerates. This is of course ignoring that Cracker can just block the strings or deflect them, like MUCH weaker character such as Cavendish or DR Law has done. Also, his bisquits have 6 arms each, 30 in total, so there isn't any chance of them being overwhelmed from omnidirectional strings.




Datassassin said:


> Biscuits are still pieces of solid matter; DD's strings can interact with the physical world in ways consistent with normal solids. When DD hit Sanji with Parasite in the sky, and _held him there_ paralyzed, DD's strings were _supporting Sanji's body_ (otherwise Sanji would have fallen to the ocean as he wasn't able to use Geppou). When DD reattached the heads of Baby 5 and Buffalo to their bodies from over the horizon, the unnatural way the skulls rocketed back to their exact necks can be attributed to physical manipulation by string. There's also the entire basis of Spider Web, where DD lays out string structurally-sound enough to support large thrown parts of castles and stop DR G3.



Bisquits are solid matters, and so are humans, are you going to argue now that DD can transform humans to strings? Until proven otherwise, awakening does not work on DF as it would render too many of them useless. DD never used awakening on Sanji or Baby 5 or Buffalo, not sure what point you're making?  As if I said DD's fruit doesn't work on humans or something..??



Datassassin said:


> A target being alive or not has no bearing on if it physically exists, and this magic string's capacity to wrap around that target.


Wat



Datassassin said:


> There's a difference between the ensnarement type of Parasite (Jozu, Sanji, Luffy) and the bodily-invasion type of Parasite (DR citizenry, Riku's squad) as the latter entails a singular string shown magically entering the body itself to control it instead of forcibly altering movement (or binding) via _external_ "webs"/puppetry. The Crackerbots are as vulnerable to ensnarement as Cracker (or Killer) himself, and Cracker would need to successfully do his clapping routine to reshape the Crackerbots in a way that maneuvered around the string.



Doesn't matter if there is a difference or not, he is not parasiting Cracker the same reason he didn't parasite Luffy; it's too weak. None of his parasyte abilities bypass durability, and Doffy has never shown to be strong enough to overcome the durabiliy of someone that tanked a G4 Organ Gun. Also are you seriously arguing that Doffy can parasyte inanimate objects? He can parasyte the air, water, fire etc....????? Even though he never showcased this?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Oct 25, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Luffy only broke the bisquits when they weren't defending, they were perfectly capable of defending against an Organ Gun:


Damn I didn't even know of this feat


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 25, 2021)

Kagutsutchi said:


> Damn I didn't even know of this feat


I genuinly forgot about it too until Great Potato mentioned it in this thread yesteday lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 25, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Doflamingo isn't going to accomplish anything by flying in the air shooting down silly string on a wall of soldiers that can hold out and advance forward through a Kong Organ. It's not even in character for Doflamingo to do that, while it is in character for Cracker to overwhelm his opponent with an army of regenerating Biscuit Knights.


I'm using your guy's logic. Tell me how Cracker beats Doflamingo if Doffy decides to stay in the air and use Birdcage.



Strobacaxi said:


> that Kong Gun didn't break


Luffy broke A LOT of soldier biscuits, go reread the fight lol. Cracker kept recreating them though that's true.


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 25, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> Luffy broke A LOT of soldier biscuits, go reread the fight lol. Cracker kept recreating them though that's true.


He never broke more than one without eating them after Nami softened them, which is not an AP feat. Also you conviniently ignored the part of his bisquits tanking Organ Gun.

You should take your own advice, go re-read the fight.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Beast (Oct 25, 2021)

Breadman said:


> ....
> ....
> ....
> 
> How does Killer beat Doflamingo when he can't fly?


Of course he can, he’s been on the roof. Zoro too.


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## Datassassin (Oct 25, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> There is a difference between putting poison on wax and turning wax into poison, Magelann never did the latter which you're claiming Doflamingo could do but with strings.


Magellan was also not stated to have been capable of Awakening, so of course Magellan didn't transform wax into liquid poison; he didn't *turn anything* into liquid poison. There's no discernible *innate* difference between normal objects/solids existing in the OPverse and those created by DFs. Since no difference in the quality of DF-produced matter (on the basis of it simply being DF-sourced) has *ever* been implied or displayed, yes, any Awakening user should be able to affect DF-produced wax/biscuits/ice/etc as long as their power entails the production of substances.


Ayy lmao said:


> Also, considering Brulee has 0 control inside the mirror world it doesn't seem like the dimension was created from her powers, just that it's only reachable with her powers. Like how Blueno could reach the air dimension, which he obviously didn't create either.


It's up in the air whether or not the Mirror World itself can be sustained without an active Mirror DF user, and I noted the debatability of it in my 'arguably' phrasing. There's no need or compulsion of the Mirror DF to operate in the same way as Blueno's, being a whole separate DF. It's fine if you want to posit that a zanily-designed space inside mirrors would independently exist in the OPverse without the Mirror DF.


Ayy lmao said:


> I'm still waiting for proof that awakening can *nullify certain DF's completely.*


I'm not asserting this in any literal fashion btw. Nothing about Awakening, be it DD's or anyone else's, would stop another DF from simply activating and producing new matter. Awakening just gets rid of that produced matter through the mechanism of reality warping, but _thematically_, it's not far from something like Mr. 3 creating a wax candle, and Enel destroying that candle with his DF. No DF power is being truly "negated" or "nullified" outside of seastone or niche counters, but the _independently-existing_ substances *successfully created* by that DF can get _eliminated_.


Ayy lmao said:


> He didn't cover the surface with bisquits, he transformed the surface into biscuits. Where would the bisquits come from in the first place if not the ground, considering Luffy ate them all. *The air?*


...Yes, lmao. Cracker magically produces biscuits, which he uses his trained skill to form into soldiers specifically; making biscuits out of nothing is the real ability of his DF. You're positing that Cracker somehow couldn't cover the ground in biscuits, despite biscuit-production being his actual power, and that he was somehow secretly using Awakening _despite his actions not changing in any discernible way after the sight of the biscuit-covered ground_.


Ayy lmao said:


> Considering that it would be stupidly OP if Cracker could make an endless amount of bisquits instead of just 6, which *he could if his awakening worked the same as Doffy's it probably doesn't. An awakened Cracker would easily be the strongest in the series if this was how his awakening worked.*


Oooooor, _or_, or, it simply wasn't Awakening and Luffy's/Cracker's lack of support for that idea is valid.


Ayy lmao said:


> We still don't know how awakening works, even for paramecias.


We know how Awakening works for Paramecia who ordinarily produce substances, like strings or mochi. Yes, we are still in the dark for how Awakening would work for someone with a Paramecia body that doesn't ordinarily produce things, like Luffy's or Jozu's.


Ayy lmao said:


> Also it has not been confirmed if Akainu and Aokiji used awakening, so not sure why you're saying it's inarguable.


They _permanently transformed the land and climate of an island_. I don't see the merit in arguing against those feats being Awakening, the pinnacle of DF mastery from the pinnacle of the Marines, after seeing what DD/Katakuri did. This is besides the main point at hand either way, of Cracker not having Awakening nor him doing anything solely-possible through Awakening.


Ayy lmao said:


> Cracker didn't bleed, he specifically told Luffy it was just jam from his bisquit as we even see there is no blood from his mouth but plenty of jam from his bisqut.


Ah, deducting a point from my memory on the false blood; however, the feats of shield destruction and sending Armored Cracker flying through the diminished force are still valid. Kong Gun is still overkill in regards to any minimum level of force required to break a shield or move Cracker after breaking through said shield.


Ayy lmao said:


> Luffy *only broke the bisquits when they weren't defending*, they were perfectly capable of defending against an Organ Gun. Until you can showcase DD blocking a G4 attack without being pushed back or injured, you have *no case for DD being more durable than Cracker* or his bisquits.





Ayy lmao said:


> Piercing and cutting doesn't ignore durability, neither does anything else in DD's arsenal, otherwise he would've actually injured G4 Luffy.


1) In the panel you've offered yourself, we can plainly see Luffy *breaking the biscuit shields which are indeed in the process of defending*. The issue was that after breaking each shield, Cracker *would just fix it* before another fist could reach the same Crackerbot. Furthermore, to go with a single Kong Organ Gun strike as the minimum level of blunt force that can possibly break a shield is a shaky assumption. DD's offense is more threatening in regards to piercing and cutting, and resistance to blunt force does not exist in a 1-to-1 relationship with resistance to being pierced/cut.

2) DD soaked getting abdominally impaled (Injection Shot) with no defense, burned with a Red Hawk to the abdomen with no defense, organs shredded/fried by Gamma Knife, torso electrocuted after GK through Countershock, a Jet Stamp to that area immediately after, a bunch of unnamed Hardened blows from base/G2 Luffy after all that Law-enabled damage, a Hardened Eagle Bazooka to the (previously Gamma Knife'd/shocked) torso, a Kong Gun post-Law through buildings, a Rhino Schneider and Culverin to the face *post-Law*, and a Leo Bazooka to the previously-ravaged torso before later going down to KKG. Cracker was defeated without Luffy's fist touching his face or torso once. There is *zero* parity in the endurance or durability of these two combatants. DD's body also doesn't need to mimic the hardness of the Biscuit Soldiers in order to eliminate them, or attack through/under/around them.

3) As I highlighted in a prior post, neither DD's ordinary strings, Awakening strings, nor Hardened Awakening strings *ever made offensive contact with Luffy's G4 body*. You don't have any examples of DD's cutting/piercing power failing there, because there is zero physical interaction.


Ayy lmao said:


> Doffy cannot toss aside someone much stronger than G3 Luffy, nor can he paralyse or transform someone capable of blocking G4 Luffy's attack.


1) Luffy feeling he earnestly needed to dodge the unHardened Awakening strings, despite being in G4, doesn't support your claim. Luffy at least felt unHardened strings would throw him off at best or injure him at worst, and it's a cavernous gap in the physical capabilities of Crackerbots vs DR G4.

2) If you agree that Jozu could block G4 strikes, then you agree that DD can restrict combatants capable of blocking G4 strikes. Jozu was stopped mid-tackle, with all of his momentum and COA, paralyzed just fine. Parasite ensnarement continues to be a hax technique that cannot simply be handwaved.


Ayy lmao said:


> Even if DD broke his bisquit, Craker simply claps his hands and it regenerates. This is of course ignoring that Cracker can just block the strings or deflect them,his bisquits have 6 arms each for that exact purpose. He's not being hit by an omnidiretional attack.


1) Cracker isn't repairing or recreating intricate Biscuit Soldiers without the *motions* of clapping— ergo,* if Cracker himself is paralyzed*, his capacity to use his DF power with the finesse that makes him threatening will be limited as well.

2) I don't see how some Crackerbots surrounding Cracker are going to help when the ground itself becomes string, nevermind that I starkly disagree with you on the idea of _biscuits Luffy's saliva and stomach acid dissolved_ being immune to Awakening in some special way different than all the other matter in the OPverse.


Ayy lmao said:


> Bisquits are solid matters, and so are humans, are you going to argue now that DD can transform humans to strings?





Ayy lmao said:


> Wat





Ayy lmao said:


> Until proven otherwise, awakening does not work on DF as it would render too many of them useless. DD never used awakening on Sanji or Baby 5 or Buffalo, not sure what point you're making?* As if I said DD's fruit doesn't work on humans or something..??*





Ayy lmao said:


> *Why would parasite would work on bisquits? Have Doffy ever used parasite on non-living beings? That doesn't even make sense if he could.*





Ayy lmao said:


> Also are you seriously arguing that Doffy can parasyte inanimate objects? He can parasyte the air, water, fire etc....????? Even though he never showcased this?



There's clearly a huge difference in OPverse humans, full of life and spirit, and inanimate objects. The lines you quoted were responding to *your* assertion that a target being alive or not _dictated_ their capacity to get *physically wrapped-up by string*, which it doesn't whatsoever. Stone castle pieces, heads, lecherous cooks, biscuits in the shapes of warriors, & angry diamond-men all equally interact with the physical strings DD produces, and can be entangled by them. _You're quoted_ (again) specifically doubting that Parasite would work on "non-living beings" or biscuits. If something is solid, strings can be wrapped around it and Parasite ensnarement would generally work. Think about the *glaring* difference between_ fire, water, air, and solid masses_ to reexamine your response because it's silly.

I also have never claimed the _separate-from-Parasite_ power of Awakening works on human beings, or even animals.


Ayy lmao said:


> Doesn't matter if there is a difference or not, he is not parasiting Cracker the same reason he didn't parasite Luffy;* it's too weak.*


Luffy broke a singular usage of Parasite ensnarement by forcefully increasing his size while applying quality Hardening. Cracker cannot do that, nor can Killer. Luffy avoided being ensnared in Parasite earlier in the fight because of plot protection stopping DD from even trying, and plot protection is not something Cracker has (nor Killer).


Ayy lmao said:


> None of his parasyte abilities bypass durability,


You misunderstand the value of the technique if you think "bypassing durability" is remotely the goal of Parasite. It's not something intended to cause damage, so the durability of a target is irrelevant. Jozu's partial diamond transformation didn't help him not get restricted.


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## walter18x (Oct 25, 2021)

Doflamingo wins
Dressrosa law can replicate killers feats
(Damage dragon kaido, defeat hawking...)
And he was a mid diff for doffy


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## Lawliet (Oct 25, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> He never broke more than one without eating them after Nami softened them, which is not an AP feat. Also you conviniently ignored the part of his bisquits tanking Organ Gun.
> 
> You should take your own advice, go re-read the fight.


How was Cracker revealed? Oh Yeah, Luffy broke the soldier. Stop picking panels that suits your narrative.


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## Captain Altintop (Oct 25, 2021)

Killer with *mid *(_mid_) difficulty. 

It's a fight between a low YC1 vs low YC3. 

DD won't give him much trouble ...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 25, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> How was Cracker revealed? Oh Yeah, Luffy broke the soldier. Stop picking panels that suits your narrative.


Says the dude convinently ignoring that Cracker was able to block a much stronger G4 attack right afterwards, nice to see you have selective reading.  Also why are you backpedaling? Have you forgotten I responded to your post where you said he broke A LOT of them, even though he only broke one? And  I never even disputed that Luffy broke one of his biscuits


Nice goalpost move tho I guess?




Datassassin said:


> Magellan was also not stated to have been capable of Awakening, so of course Magellan didn't transform wax into liquid poison; he didn't *turn anything* into liquid poison. There's no discernible *innate* difference between normal objects/solids existing in the OPverse and those created by DFs.


Why are you bringing up Magelan then? And of course there is a difference lol, for instance the Ice and lava on Punk hazard is clearly different from normal lava and ice as you even pointed out in this very post.



Datassassin said:


> I'm not asserting this in any literal fashion btw. Nothing about Awakening, be it DD's or anyone else's, would stop another DF from simply activating and producing new matter.


Yea I'm calling BS on this until we see this actually happens as you're describing it.


Datassassin said:


> ...Yes, lmao. Cracker magically produces biscuits, which he uses his trained skill to form into soldiers specifically; making biscuits out of nothing is the real ability of his DF.


Sooo, if he can create them out of nothing, what exactly is DD supposed to do other than die...?



Datassassin said:


> Oooooor, _or_, or, it simply wasn't Awakening and Luffy's/Cracker's lack of support for that idea is valid.


You're ignoring my point, I'm saying IF his awakening worked as you're describing it would, that he can turn the ground into an endless amount of biscuits, then he would without a doubt be the strongest character in the series by a mile.
Being able to create endless amount of biscuits that are way stronger than G3 WCI Luffy>>>> rest of the verse.



Datassassin said:


> Ah, deducting a point from my memory on the false blood; however, the feats of shield destruction and sending Armored Cracker flying through the diminished force are still valid. Kong Gun is still overkill in regards to any minimum level of force required to break a shield or move Cracker after breaking through said shield.


And right after this, his biscuits tanked a barrage of G4 attacks, without Cracker even being inside any of them to shield with his COA.  On the other hand we have DD being sent flying everytime he's hit by G4.  But suuuure Kong Gun is overkill for break his shield


Datassassin said:


> 1) In the panel you've offered yourself, we can plainly see Luffy *breaking the biscuit shields which are indeed in the process of defending*. *The issue was that after breaking each shield, Cracker would just fix it before another fist could reach the same Crackerbot. *Furthermore, to go with a single Kong Organ Gun strike as the minimum level of blunt force that can possibly break a shield is a shaky assumption. DD's offense is more threatening in regards to piercing and cutting, and resistance to blunt force does not exist in a 1-to-1 relationship with resistance to being pierced/cut.


Blatantly false, we know he can only fix them by clapping with both hands, and we can see not only is he not clapping at any point, he has his sword in one hand the entire time Luffy is attacking.
Show me Cracker clapping to fix the shields, or the shields being fixed in the chapter.  Also, Kong Organ Gun is a barrage of attacks, not just 1 single strike dude.




Datassassin said:


> 2) DD soaked getting abdominally impaled (Injection Shot) with no defense, burned with a Red Hawk to the abdomen with no defense, organs shredded/fried by Gamma Knife, torso electrocuted after GK through Countershock etc


Ok, so his endurance is better than Cracker's, good for him. He has still yet to block or not been sent flying after getting hit by  G4.


Datassassin said:


> 3) As I highlighted in a prior post, neither DD's ordinary strings, Awakening strings, nor Hardened Awakening strings *ever made offensive contact with Luffy's G4 body*. You don't have any examples of DD's cutting/piercing power failing there, because there is zero physical interaction.


So then why are you claiming they are superior to Cracker's offence if you don't have a shred of evidence for this? Also lol, what are you talking about "never made contact"? "Zero physical interaction"?  What is this then? 




Datassassin said:


> 1) Luffy feeling he earnestly needed to dodge the unHardened Awakening strings, despite being in G4, doesn't support your claim. Luffy at least felt unHardened strings would throw him off at best or injure him at worst, and it's a cavernous gap in the physical capabilities of Crackerbots vs DR G4.
> 
> 2) If you agree that Jozu could block G4 strikes, then you agree that DD can restrict combatants capable of blocking G4 strikes. Jozu was stopped mid-tackle, with all of his momentum and COA, paralyzed just fine. Parasite ensnarement continues to be a hax technique that cannot simply be handwaved.


1) See above.
2) No i do not agree Jozu could block G4 strikes, not one bit. Jozu is not on par with DR G4 Luffy. How in the world did you reach the conclusion that I thought this?



Datassassin said:


> 1) Cracker isn't repairing or recreating intricate Biscuit Soldiers without the *motions* of clapping— ergo,* if Cracker himself is paralyzed*, his capacity to use his DF power with the finesse that makes him threatening will be limited as well.


 DD is not paralysing someone whose armament haki Luffy praised, when DD never received the same praise. Not ever. His parasite does not bypass haki.



Datassassin said:


> The lines you quoted were responding to *your* assertion that a target being alive or not _dictated_ their capacity to get *physically wrapped-up by string*, which it doesn't whatsoever.


No that was never my assertion, it was that DD cannot turn living beings into strings, I never said he can't wrap them in strings lmao. Very huge difference between wrapping something in strings than literally transforming them into strings man. Also there is a difference between putting strings on an object to controlling it's movement via strings. Not that it matters considering DD isn't strong enough to parasite the bisquits.



Datassassin said:


> Luffy broke a singular usage of Parasite ensnarement by forcefully increasing his size while applying quality Hardening.


why didn't he parasite G4 then



Datassassin said:


> You misunderstand the value of the technique if you think "bypassing durability" is remotely the goal of Parasite. It's not something intended to cause damage, so the durability of a target is irrelevant. Jozu's partial diamond transformation didn't help him not get restricted.


Because Jozu is too weak to break parasyte clearly. Hope you aren't implying DD can parasyte everybody in the series if they don't increase their size or dodge, which includes Kaido, WB, Big Mom, admirals etc

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ClannadFan (Oct 25, 2021)

Damn and I thought KaidoBros were crazy. Good thing I wasn't around during Dressrosa. These DoffyBros are on some other shit. I can maybe, maybe (not really) see how someone thinks Doffy beats Killer. But Kidd? Lmaooooo

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Datassassin (Oct 25, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why are you bringing up Magelan then? And of course there is a difference lol, for instance the Ice and lava on Punk hazard is clearly different from normal lava and ice as you even pointed out in this very post.


I initially brought up Magellan affecting the wax to broadly establish that DF powers can affect the products of other DFs all the time. Yes, huge difference between saturating a DF product and warping one with Awakening, but my intent was to demonstrate the 'stuff' made by DFs is just as mundane 'stuff' as everything else. Magellan saturated the wax as easily as he saturated the stones around him, with the wax offering no special resistance _just because it was DF-produced-wax_. *You're of the apparent position that something simply being spawned by a DF makes objects or matter special, and I'm not.*

The ice and lava found on Punk Hazard are within what would be expected of ice/lava in the One Piece universe. They're not inherently unique; the _remarkable thing was their existence at all, as lingering effects of the Admiral's DFs changing the land of that island_. If Katakuri rolled up on Punk Hazard now, he'd be able to turn a random block of ice into mochi with as much ease as he would naturally-created ice. It wouldn't matter that Aokiji made that ice with his DF.


Ayy lmao said:


> Yea I'm calling BS on this until we see this actually happens as you're describing it.


Not many Paramecias produce independent materials, and even fewer would ever find themselves in a situation where they'd face an Awakening user. You're basically stuck waiting for an applicable SBS then, giving voice to what's been imparted by the story.


Ayy lmao said:


> You're ignoring my point, I'm saying IF his awakening worked as you're describing it would, that he can turn the ground into an endless amount of biscuits, then he would without a doubt be the strongest character in the series by a mile.
> Being able to create endless amount of biscuits that are way stronger than G3 WCI Luffy>>>> rest of the verse.


Cracker doesn't have *any kind of Awakening*, so there's seriously no point here. We don't know this alternate universe Awakened Cracker's limits of Biscuit Soldier creation, sure.


Ayy lmao said:


> Sooo, if he can create them out of nothing, what exactly is DD supposed to do other than die...?


-Bind Cracker, Armored Cracker, or Biscuit Soldiers with Parasite ensnarement?
-Impair the creation and repairing of Biscuit Soldiers by stopping Cracker from clapping, through Parasite ensnarement?
-Eliminate existing Biscuit Soldiers, not protected by COA, via Awakening's reality warp?
-Attack Cracker with Hardened Awakening strings until he dies?
-Overwhelm Cracker with waves of magic razor string on the scale of residential-blocks, forcing him into the ocean to drown?
-Generally use superior range, variety of attacks, and mobility to prevail?


Ayy lmao said:


> And right after this, his biscuits *tanked* a barrage of G4 attacks, without Cracker even being inside any of them to shield with his COA.


Oda drawing a shield *breaking* after being punched isn't fitting any definition of 'tanking' I know.


Ayy lmao said:


> On the other hand we have DD being sent flying everytime he's hit by G4.


Do you realize that Cracker would *also* get sent flying if G4 hits connected, except he'd be far more hurt despite starting fresh? Do you also remember that Katakuri was also getting knocked around by G4 when he wasn't able to dodge, like in 884?


Ayy lmao said:


> But suuuure Kong Gun is overkill for break his shield


This isn't a matter of subjective opinion. Kong Gun had enough force to _completely shatter_ the shield, crack open the Biscuit Armor _after_ shattering that shield, and send Armored Cracker tumbling a fair distance in 837. That's a surplus of force, more force exerted than what was necessary to either singularly break the shield or even break the shield and move Cracker at all.


Ayy lmao said:


> Also, Kong Organ Gun is a barrage of attacks, not just 1 single strike dude.


I know, I was talking about the effects of singular punches on shields within the barrage, and not multiple punches against a single shield.


Ayy lmao said:


> Blatantly false, we know he can only fix them by clapping with both hands, and we can see not only is he *not clapping at any point,* he has his sword in one hand the entire time Luffy is attacking.
> Show me Cracker clapping to fix the shields, or the shields being fixed in the chapter.


The 838 page prior to the Kong Organ Gun spread is the last time we see Cracker's hands, which are free and not holding his sword. We then see *Cracker drawn with clapping sound effects on the very next page (at the top)*, apparently clapping against his forearm *while* holding Pretzel in something I didn't even notice before. So yes, Cracker was definitely fixing the Crackerbots while Luffy attacked. I'm usually too lazy to conjure scans but this is such a shiiiny piece of overlooked evidence that it's worth posting:



Ayy lmao said:


> Ok, so his endurance is better than Cracker's, good for him. He has still yet to block or not been sent flying after getting hit by G4.


DD mitigated some of the damage of Rhino Schneider by using Hardening at the last second, but the most significant block by DD of a G4 attack is what you posted below.


Ayy lmao said:


> So then why are you claiming they are superior to Cracker's offence if you don't have a shred of evidence for this? Also lol, what are you talking about "never made contact"? "Zero physical interaction"? *What is this then?*


*Very-visibly a block* This is quite simply a defensive technique entailing putting up two sheets of string to block G4's Culverin; it's not an _attack_. Please note that the greater phrase you _partially_ cited read as "neither DD's ordinary strings, Awakening strings, nor Hardened Awakening strings ever made *offensive* contact with Luffy's G4 body". "Offensive contact" denoting attacks; reexamine the DD-Luffy content. DD never landed a single cutting or piercing attack on G4. He made sure to dodge the unHardened Awakening tendrils he was confronted with, and DD conveniently never whipped out giant Hardened tendrils against G4.

I pointed the lack of landed cuts/stabs out _in response_ to your claim that DD not damaging G4 Luffy resulted in points against his piercing/cutting power. That's impossible, because G4 Luffy never withstood their cutting or piercing power, and chose to repeatedly dodge unHardened Awakening strings.

I'll reiterate my comment about blunt force resistance not directly translating to equivalent resistance to cutting/piercing (& depending on the material the difference can be substantial). You may see why DD's inability to produce G4-level blunt force is immaterial towards his capacity to cut-through/pierce-through biscuits.


Ayy lmao said:


> 2) *No i do not agree Jozu could block G4 strikes, not one bit.* Jozu is not on par with DR G4 Luffy. How in the world did you reach the conclusion that I thought this?





Ayy lmao said:


> DD isn't strong enough to parasite the bisquits.


Hoh. I asked since Jozu has often been seen favorably by posters here in regards to putting up a fight against G4, and at face value it's surprising that you'd think a man with two of the best strength feats in the manga (blocking Mihawk's WB-intended slash + ripping out then throwing an iceberg) would be easily folded by G4. I don't see the Crackerbots as physically stronger than Jozu, so that's an intractable disagreement.


Ayy lmao said:


> DD is not paralysing someone whose armament haki Luffy praised, when DD never received the same praise. Not ever. His parasite does not bypass haki.


1) Luffy was praising Armored Cracker's *hardness* specifically, to be clear. This was before Luffy faced the Biscuit Soldiers, which were also supernaturally hard for biscuits and Luffy may have been inclined to mainly attribute the sturdiness of Armored Cracker's shield to COA.
2) Of course Parasite can't "bypass Haki", but applying COA in itself does not stop the strings from wrapping around a target, in the same way a target being Hardened wouldn't stop any character from physically grabbing it. Jozu was using COA when he was ensnared, as he had just used COA to strike Croc once and was in the process of doing so a second time.


Ayy lmao said:


> Because Jozu is too weak to break parasyte clearly. Hope you aren't implying DD can parasyte everybody in the series if they don't increase their size or dodge, which includes Kaido, WB, Big Mom, admirals et


DD can ensnare the vast majority of One Piece characters. It's a nasty technique with particular-seeming counters. The ones stated in my first post in this thread were "a COA-backed forceful size-increase, any body-size decreasing, advanced COA tricks, advanced COC tricks, raw physical strength greater than Jozu's, or any compelling miscellaneous power that could destroy the strings without moving." Logias, Zoans, and transformative Paramecias would automatically have the least difficult time escaping ensnarement without accounting for any other vein of counter. Big Mom, Kaido, healthy WB, Shanks, and the C3 all should have multiple methods of either breaking Parasite or ignoring it altogether.


Ayy lmao said:


> why didn't he parasite G4 then


*Mainly* the same reason DD didn't Parasite Kyros or Luffy at any other point (despite bothering to tie his hands together), much like the reasoning for Kizaru never sniping MF Luffy (despite hitting a key in Luffy's hand); *p l o t  p r o t e c t i o n*. You could also argue that post-Law DD didn't have a good enough handle on Boundman's movement.


ClannadFan said:


> Damn and I thought KaidoBros were crazy. Good thing I wasn't around during Dressrosa. These DoffyBros are on some other shit. I can maybe, maybe (not really) see how someone thinks Doffy beats Killer. But Kidd? Lmaooooo


Rokushiki prodigy, COA/COC/COO master, Jozu-tier strength, Hakuba-tier speed, Big Mom-tier skin, Magneto-successor, metal-summoning-scroll-carrying Kidd fodderizes right?


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## Sablés (Oct 25, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> It will take much more energy for Doflamingo to destroy a biscuit


No. It would take such energy to destroy a biscuit shield.
Biscuit soldiers themselves are far less durable. Seeing as the shield only blocks in one direction, Awakening can get around them without difficulty. Doflamingo would be a completely different beast for Cracker to fight than G4 Luffy.

Anyway. If Killer can break Parasite, he wins. His speed and offense is crazy shit.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Oct 25, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Rokushiki prodigy, COA/COC/COO master, Jozu-tier strength, Hakuba-tier speed, Big Mom-tier skin, Magneto-successor, metal-summoning-scroll-carrying Kidd fodderizes right?


Yeah cuz Doffys a scrub now

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 26, 2021)

Killer fodderizes.


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## Tenma (Oct 26, 2021)

I don't have anything against Doffy but Killer is clearly intended to be stronger at this point, as among the mighty pirates Oden foresaw would step up in his place. He'd beat Cracker too.

Reactions: Agree 6 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Lawliet (Oct 26, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Says the dude convinently ignoring that Cracker was able to block a much stronger G4 attack right afterwards, nice to see you have selective reading. Also why are you backpedaling? Have you forgotten I responded to your post where you said he broke A LOT of them, even though he only broke one? And I never even disputed that Luffy broke one of his biscuits
> 
> 
> Nice goalpost move tho I guess?


When you actually want to discuss who is really stronger, Doffy or cracker and not want to discuss who is right, me  or you, we can then continue this


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 26, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> When you actually want to discuss who is really stronger, Doffy or cracker and not want to discuss who is right, me or you, we can then continue this


I have already said dozens of times now in this very thread that Cracker folds DD, what are you even on about?


Datassassin said:


> The ice and lava found on Punk Hazard are within what would be expected of ice/lava in the One Piece universe. They're not inherently unique; the _remarkable thing was their existence at all, as lingering effects of the Admiral's DFs changing the land of that island_. If Katakuri rolled up on Punk Hazard now, he'd be able to turn a random block of ice into mochi with as much ease as he would naturally-created ice. It wouldn't matter that Aokiji made that ice with his DF.


It's just speculation to say awakening can do that, you would think DD who was actually on PH would do something about the ice and lava if he could, because neither he or his subordinates are immune to them.



Datassassin said:


> Not many Paramecias produce independent materials, and even fewer would ever find themselves in a situation where they'd face an Awakening user. You're basically stuck waiting for an applicable SBS then, giving voice to what's been imparted by the story.


True, still it's pointlesss IMO to try and determine how it works at this point.


Datassassin said:


> Cracker doesn't have *any kind of Awakening*, so there's seriously no point here. We don't know this alternate universe Awakened Cracker's limits of Biscuit Soldier creation, sure.


Dude, you're once againt not getting my actual point. You're saying what he did before couldn't had been awakening because it isn't like DD or Kata's, and I'm saying if his awakening was like theirs he would be Godly overpowered so there is 0% chance his awakening is like theirs.



Datassassin said:


> -Bind Cracker, Armored Cracker, or Biscuit Soldiers with Parasite ensnarement? -snip-


He's not going to bind or hurt anyone who can block a barrage of G4 attacks.


Datassassin said:


> Oda drawing a shield *breaking* after being punched isn't fitting any definition of 'tanking' I know.


None of the biscuits took any damage, so they did technically tank it, unlike before where he broke through the shield.


Datassassin said:


> Do you realize that Cracker would *also* get sent flying if G4 hits connected, except he'd be far more hurt despite starting fresh? Do you also remember that Katakuri was also getting knocked around by G4 when he wasn't able to dodge, like in 884?


Cracker using a shield and inside his biscuits and actually guarding isnt going to be sent flying no.



Datassassin said:


> This isn't a matter of subjective opinion. Kong Gun had enough force to _completely shatter_ the shield, crack open the Biscuit Armor _after_ shattering that shield, and send Armored Cracker tumbling a fair distance in 837.


So a single Kong Gun>>> Barrage of Organ Gun...?  Why didn't Luffy use Kong Gun again then?



Datassassin said:


> The 838 page prior to the Kong Organ Gun spread is the last time we see Cracker's hands, which are free and not holding his sword. We then see *Cracker drawn with clapping sound effects on the very next page (at the top)*, apparently clapping against his forearm *while* holding Pretzel in something I didn't even notice before. So yes, Cracker was definitely fixing the Crackerbots while Luffy attacked. I'm usually too lazy to conjure scans but this is such a shiiiny piece of overlooked evidence that it's worth posting:


Even if he did fix them, he didn't do it until after luffy punched the shields several times, unlike before where luffy just needed 1 attack to break the shields and KO it.


Datassassin said:


> *Very-visibly a block* This is quite simply a defensive technique entailing putting up two sheets of string to block G4's Culverin; it's not an _attack_.


 to me it looked very much like he striked luffy with his awakening and not that he just blocked it


Datassassin said:


> Hoh. I asked since Jozu has often been seen favorably by posters here in regards to putting up a fight against G4, and at face value it's surprising that you'd think a man with two of the best strength feats in the manga (blocking Mihawk's WB-intended slash + ripping out then throwing an iceberg) would be easily folded by G4. I don't see the Crackerbots as physically stronger than Jozu, so that's an intractable disagreement.


Never in my life have I ever put Jozu anywhere near G4 Luffy lmao, you can read through all my posts on any website, you will never find me even implying this. Jozu gets folded by DR G4 Luffy and also Doffy & Cracker


Datassassin said:


> 1) Luffy was praising Armored Cracker's *hardness* specifically, to be clear. This was before Luffy faced the Biscuit Soldiers, which were also supernaturally hard for biscuits and Luffy may have been inclined to mainly attribute the sturdiness of Armored Cracker's shield to COA.
> 2) Of course Parasite can't "bypass Haki", but applying COA in itself does not stop the strings from wrapping around a target, in the same way a target being Hardened wouldn't stop any character from physically grabbing it. Jozu was using COA when he was ensnared, as he had just used COA to strike Croc once and was in the process of doing so a second time.


1)I know what he was praising man, what else could it be other than it's hardness... Cracker easily pierced G4's arm, so there is more to it than just it being hard biscuit armor.
2)  why cant DD's haki simply be much greater than Jozu's??
Do we have any example of COA not being able to defend itself from a DF ability, other than supposedly parasyte?



Datassassin said:


> *Mainly* the same reason DD didn't Parasite Kyros or Luffy at any other point (despite bothering to tie his hands together), much like the reasoning for Kizaru never sniping MF Luffy (despite hitting a key in Luffy's hand); *p l o t p r o t e c t i o n*. You could also argue that post-Law DD didn't have a good enough handle on Boundman's movement.


sure i can agree him not doing it to non-G4 Luffy or Kyros is PIS


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## Lawliet (Oct 26, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> I have already said dozens of times now in this very thread that Cracker folds DD, what are you even on about?


You debate as if the premise is Right vs Wrong instead of who is actually stronger, Doffy vs Cracker. I got no time for you


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 26, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> You debate as if the premise is Right vs Wrong instead of who is actually stronger, Doffy vs Cracker. I got no time for you


You're an actual idiot if that was the only thing you got from my posts. You're not going to win any debate if you don't care about who is right and who is wrong, or if you're going to backpedal everytime someone is tearing down your arguments.
Like how do you want me to debate, say blatant lies just like you did about how Luffy broke several of Crackers biscuits? Then backpedal once I'm proven wrong?

Ok here I go:
Nami one-shotted Crocodile and Enel, therefore she can defeat Roger EZ, if someone proves me wrong and only cares about Right vs Wrong, I will have no time for you.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Datassassin (Oct 26, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> Dude, you're once againt not getting my actual point. You're saying what he did before couldn't had been awakening because it isn't like DD or Kata's, and I'm saying if his awakening was like theirs he would be Godly overpowered so there is 0% chance his awakening is like theirs.


Do you agree with an interpretation of Awakening that classifies it as the pinnacle of DF mastery, based on the feats and character descriptions of the act? An "Awakening" that changes absolutely nothing for the combatant (Cracker's biscuit creation method remaining the *same* before & after *+* his techniques remaining exactly the *same*), that offers *no* new powers (because he would have *always* been able to place biscuits over a surface) wouldn't just be incongruous with the reality warping we know. It'd fail to meet the actual purpose of Awakening, which is to access greater DF powers in a display of maximum mastery. Since Cracker is one of those few Paramecia who magically produce things, his Awakening would operate similar to Katakuri's or DD's *if* he had one.


Ayy lmao said:


> He's not going to bind or hurt anyone who can block a barrage of G4 attacks.





Ayy lmao said:


> 1)I know what he was praising man, what else could it be other than it's hardness... Cracker easily pierced G4's arm, so there is more to it than just it being hard biscuit armor.
> 2) why cant DD's haki simply be much greater than Jozu's??
> Do we have any example of COA not being able to defend itself from a DF ability, other than supposedly parasyte?


Think of a diamond gemstone or a steel ball. You can surround them with your fingers in your hand, and wrap strings or wires around them, right? That doesn't mean you're able to pierce into the diamond or steel ball, or scratch them either, but those are _unrelated actions_ that don't determine if you can simply physically contain those objects. A character could have a godly hard defense where nothing in the OPverse could possibly physically damage them, and any character like Nami or marine mook #455 could *still* walk up to that character and wrap ordinary thread or fabric around them. Hardness is _not relevant towards resistance to Parasite_, and general COA application (invisible base or Hardening) offers protection against being reached by a DF's direct effects. Cracker (Armored or not) or Jozu coating themselves in COA would protect them from being affected by Jora's DF clouds or spatially bisected by a random DR Law slash for example. That same coating would *not* protect those characters from being smothered in mochi produced by Katakuri, or wrapped in string produced by DD, because the mochi and strings still *physically interact with the OPverse *and average COA isn't an eraser of DF-sourced matter. Parasite ensnarement also isn't a telekinetic move, it's the rapid usage of supernatural strings to physically envelop a target, so using base COA/Hardening wouldn't be able to fling the enveloping-strings _off of a body_.

A substance-producing Paramecia or Logia doesn't have to 'penetrate' an enemy combatant's COA just to have the matter they produce interact with that enemy as normal. If Aokiji or Monet makes a snowball and throws it at Hulk Mode Vergo, the snowball would still smack into Vergo's face despite him being covered in Hardening.

Jozu's COA was sufficient to defend against Aokiji's freezing when used in concert with his diamond-transformation (while paying attention), so I personally don't see a good chance of Jozu having 'much worse' COA than DD. If you think Cracker spams biscuit creations that each surpass Jozu's physical strength as well, and thus would be able to consistently bust out of Parasite, then we likely don't have a path to agreement on that matter.


Ayy lmao said:


> Cracker using a shield and inside his biscuits and actually guarding isnt going to be sent flying no.


And DD using _his own_ DF production, Awakening strings, also successfully defended from G4 strikes without being sent flying or hurt. You held up Cracker using his DF productions (biscuits) to avoid being damaged or moved, when Cracker's real body would surely *fare much worse* than DD's grievously wounded real body against G4 strikes if touched. Oda made a point of not having Cracker take a single G4 strike, even at the end; he was defeated by getting thrown through the supernaturally hard biscuits with great force. Beyond this, since damaging a material with blunt force is _different enough_ from the force and sharpness required to _pierce or cut into a material_, I think this track is moot towards arguing that Cracker's Armor or Soldiers would be '100% impervious' to DD's attacks (aside from reality warping the soldiers).


Ayy lmao said:


> *None of the biscuits took any damage, so they did technically tank it, unlike before where he broke through the shield.*





Ayy lmao said:


> Even if he did fix them, he didn't do it until after luffy punched the shields several times, unlike before where luffy just needed 1 attack to break the shields and KO it.





Ayy lmao said:


> So a single Kong Gun>>> Barrage of Organ Gun...? Why didn't Luffy use Kong Gun again then?


1) When you say "biscuits", that refers to everything Cracker makes with his biscuit DF, from shields, to armor, to the Crackerbots themselves. Since the Crackerbots wouldn't have superior durability to their shields, the most important successful destruction of Luffy's was him shattering multiple shields with Kong Organ Gun strikes. So, if you meant that the Biscuit Soldiers "tanked" KOG punches by having their shields shatter and not having their main bodies interact with the blows, then I just flatly disagree with the assessment.

2) Nothing suggests Cracker wasn't constantly repairing the damage to the shields as it occurred, because we didn't get to see Cracker's actions for a single page before the clapping reveal. I don't think the sight of him clapping in the panel I posted was the *start* of him clapping in that particular exchange, since there was no implication it was.

3) One take is that because a single Kong Gun is so much more powerful than a single strike within Kong Organ Gun, it may demand a difference of energy to execute. Another is that the lack of a visible Kong Gun (since the overwhelming majority of that half-day battle was off-paneled) comes down to further plot-perpetuating irrationality. There are _multiple_ other G4 moves we see never busted out against Cracker, but Luffy may have been wary of being cut more seriously, or of exhausting himself before the soul trees & Nami could cover for him. Whomst knows, all that we *do* know is that Kong Gun was indeed overkill in terms of blunt force, and that DD is not some blunt force specialist.


Ayy lmao said:


> to me it looked very much like he striked luffy with his awakening and not that he just blocked it


Your interpretation of that visual doesn't make sense to me, especially with the context of the scene. How would two sheets of string crossing over one another in front of a kneeling DD serve as an attack on Luffy, whose fist was rocketing towards DD and blocked by those sheets? It's not even the only named defensive technique DD used, per Spider Web's repeated usage.


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## Lawliet (Oct 26, 2021)

Ayy lmao said:


> You're an actual idiot if that was the only thing you got from my posts. You're not going to win any debate if you don't care about who is right and who is wrong, or if you're going to backpedal everytime someone is tearing down your arguments.
> Like how do you want me to debate, say blatant lies just like you did about how Luffy broke several of Crackers biscuits? Then backpedal once I'm proven wrong?
> 
> Ok here I go:
> Nami one-shotted Crocodile and Enel, therefore she can defeat Roger EZ, if someone proves me wrong and only cares about Right vs Wrong, I will have no time for you.


I'll bite. 

Luffy literally overpowered his sword head on and broke his way through to break the soldier here. 


*Spoiler*: __ 











Luffy literally smashing through a bunch of them. Look at their shields breaking, look at the background. Luffy is literally smashing them. Luffy overpowered a single soldier the moment he went G4.  Luffy's issue was overpowering an infinite amount of them and getting to the real one to land the final blow. 



Cracker literally saying "fight, run, then eat"

Luffy is literally breaking the soldiers, that's why you know, all of them are broken on the ground. He eats because he needs food for stamina. He tells Nami Cracker has stamina.  And Nami's job there was to make them edible. Luffy was breaking the soldiers just fight when he went G4. 

To summarize the fight between Luffy and Cracker. 
Cracker had a finite amount of soldiers to use, cuz u know, he got a finite amount of energy. The whole fight was who runs out of stamina first. Yeah guess what, Luffy ran out of stamina first lol, new news to you that he runs out of stamina every fight? 

Now go reread Doffy vs Luffy and try to show me how was Doffy dealing with a going all out Luffy.


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## Lawliet (Oct 26, 2021)

Lawliet said:


> I'll bite.
> 
> Luffy literally overpowered his sword head on and broke his way through to break the soldier here.
> 
> ...



This is Doflamingo after taking multiple G4 hits to the face and whatnot. And let's not forget all the shit he received from Law and Luffy prior to that. Still able to function, think, and fight back. This proves that Doflamingo's endurance > Cracker by a long mile since all it took for Luffy to beat Cracker was one clean hit. 




This is Doflamingo showing he has the ability and power to block G4 easily. 



This is Doflamingo making G4 Luffy be on the run for a bit, something Cracker couldn't do unless Luffy runs out of G4.


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## Navy Scribe (Oct 26, 2021)

It depends if doflamingo gets him with marionette then he wins ,I think killer might be able to speed blitz him though


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## Captain Altintop (Oct 27, 2021)

LaniDani said:


> LMAO.Killer loses.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Jay. (Oct 28, 2021)

Doffy would crucify Killer.

don't even think that Killer has special armanent or something cause he rather goes for the quick blow not the impactful ones not to mentoin that if you cut the guy he bleeds. no tough skin or super armanent abilities to protect himself like let's say vergo

Killer can cut Doffy's strings and Doffy as much as he wants but the Doffy can literally not only do string bunshins but also stick his inner organs back together in case of emergency

what the fuck? killer blitzes him and so what?

kaido vs doffy would be a bad match up for doffy cause the club gonna smash his skull into oblivion. not to mentoin that if Luffy can tire Doffy out then what is Doffy suppossed to do even if he survives Kaido's brute force somehow? kaido can go for weeks just like luffy so you are up against abnormal strength and inhuman willpower. doffy's weakpoints.
killer is mainly a speedster even doe zoro complimented his strength as well
i mean how luffy run out of haki against doffy and needed help to finish the job. you telling me killer can tank what doffy tanked? luffy had law's help for some blows. law himself was ready to take doffy's life and doffy did surgery on himself  and laughed it off

This is about matchups. No offense to killer but he went out like a bitch in Ringo and blamed it on his weapon and now he can dodge and tank all of Doffy's moves?.



also his weapon thingies are not about sharpness but about soundwaves that's why he was efficent against Kaido's scales cause he made it look like he is cutting trees with a chainsaw rather than slashing around like a fool he used his smarts and concentrated his entire attention to one point


it's not like Kaido got a scar from it though

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Oct 28, 2021)

Killer > Hawkins > Doflamingo

Reactions: Funny 1 | Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 2


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## B Rabbit (Oct 28, 2021)

The Doffy wank is outta control. Lmao.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jay. (Oct 28, 2021)

The Killer overhype is surreal

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Draco Bolton (Oct 28, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Killer > Hawkins > Doflamingo


It's been a long time since I've seen you post

Chicken and Tier specialist fandom was worried 


OT: Killer win cuz the poll say so. I don't want any trouble, I follow the majority


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## B Rabbit (Oct 28, 2021)

Jay. said:


> The Killer overhype is surreal


Nah you got people in here saying injuring Kaidou is not a good feat. And that it means nothing compared to Doffy.


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## Jay. (Oct 28, 2021)

well to be fair we have no idea what doffy can do to kaido we only know he would lose and i don't think Killer has a better change against Kaido at all in comparison. Atleast Doffy could run away or trick himself out somehow with his DF abilities but Killer would just die in a 1vs1 against Kaido

that being said hurting kaido is a cool benchmark
Momo is also on the list technically

No idea what Killer can offer in 1vs1 against Kaido we never saw that 

but you are right it does mean something. his punishers are a cool weapon.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 28, 2021)

Dofla was easily more impressive than Kaidou and Bm.


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## ClannadFan (Oct 28, 2021)

I understand people like Doffy as a character but just cuz you like someone doesn't make them strong. The preskip Antagonist are still the best Antagonist in One Piece, and 90% of them get folded by Hody lmao.


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## Jay. (Oct 28, 2021)

who can eat more thunder baguas doffy or killer?


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## xmysticgohanx (Oct 28, 2021)

Doffy gets shit on

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Great Potato (Oct 28, 2021)

Killer shits on Doflamingo in the offense department.

Doflamingo couldn't put a single scratch on Boundman, his Athlete kick literally bounced off and got mocked, while Killer had zoan Kaido spitting up blood and screaming in pain.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Here's a barrage of Doflamingo's strongest technique Awakening failing to deal with and struggling to pierce an exhausted fatigued Luffy, taking dozens of stabs to break through his CoA and ultimately failing to keep him down.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Meanwhile a heavily nerfed Killer stabs clean through Zoro with an unnamed swing with basic scythes far inferior to his Punishers.



Outside of awakening the majority of Doflamingo's arsenal was mostly dishing out paper-cuts to the cast. Highlights include....


*Spoiler*: __ 




5 color strings that Sanji counterattacks from the next page and that Law tanks with his forearms


*Spoiler*: __ 








Bullet Springs that can all be casually blocked by Cavendish



Overheat that gave Luffy a papercut and can be stopped in its tracks by Law holding his sword out.


*Spoiler*: __ 









He did have one technique that took off Law's arm, but good luck trying this shit against a guy with buzzsaws attached to his wrist...




On the other hand Killer's Beheading Claws were portrayed on par with Purgatory Onigiri on the rooftop, but generally more lethal because true to his name the technique is aimed for the throat. His Punisher blades were capable of piercing through someone as tough as Kid with an unnamed attack. Every attack he landed on Hawkins was a devastating hit.


*Spoiler*: __ 









Hawkins Strawman can make Zoro visibly quiver and comment on its power trying to block it. Killer clashed with a more powerful version of Strawman and both cleaved clean through it's weapon and took off it's head in the same stroke. His other attack dismembered him and his last attack put him out of his misery. All three hits were blitzes as well against a guy who showed himself capable of reacting to Law.



The only thing Doflamingo's offense has over Killer is range. The thought that Doflamingo could so much as tickle Kaido is a pipe-dream.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Oct 29, 2021)

Already agree Killer takes this. That said some of the arguments in Killer's favour... Just ...




Doffy is getting mad slandered out here

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 29, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Doflamingo hit him with Athlete which is basically a kicking variant of 5 color strings, it is a slashing attack that utilizes his DF. You can see the strings on his kick here
> 
> 
> 
> You think the strings are just a decoration and not meant to cut the opponent?


This is such a foolish yet annoyingly recurring stance on this forum. If someone hits you with the butt of a dagger, are you being cut or stabbed in that instant? No. Re-examine the page you posted and the one drawn immediately after.

Athlete Thread *clearly* produces threads behind the foot, which *obviously isn't making contact at the point of impact, *and Boundman wasn't successfully kicked away thus disrupting the technique. Athlete Thread's goal is to slice up the target as they're being kicked away, *like in the first* 782 usage of Athlete Thread where it cut past Luffy's Hardening as he's knocked away.

The critical component of Athlete Thread escaping you here is that it relies on an initial successful kick, a blunt force strike; the base 5-Color-Strings *do not rely on any such blunt precursor*. DD doesn't have to backhand a target in order to have those strings make contact as the target is knocked away.


Great Potato said:


> Do you have any scans of those techniques dealing damage? Usually being bigger makes things less useful for stabbing.


Damage tends to not happen when you successfully dodge something. The author opted to have his plot-protected hero avoid all giant stabs, while also having none of those giant stabs use Hardening which we know radically enhances offense. Your takeaway being "Gatz tendril = Flap Thread's = Holy Assassin/God Thread" is noted.


Great Potato said:


> I think this is the only time Doflamingo hit G4 with awakening and he bounced off of it with a _boing_ sound effect.


The positioning and speed lines make this read as yet another *successful dodge* from Boundman who is near *constantly bouncing* as he moves, and whose _incredible speed_ had already been established.


Great Potato said:


> I understand your upset that Big Mom hit a defenseless Kid with Mama Raid because it destroys your argument that a child with a pocket knife can dish out damage to these characters, but blame Oda for drawing that in the manga. Generally we form our opinions around *what he draws* and not pretend they didn't happen so we can keep up the fantasy that Doflamingo is relevant in 2021. Zoro didn't become less durable from Onimaru's presence, so he's kind of irrelevant when discussing damage output, Doflamingo stabbing Law doesn't get disregarded just because Trebol set him up for it.





Great Potato said:


> More of you crying about Kid surviving Mama Raid.


This attempt to bolster Kidd's feats is delusional. Oda *specifically didn't draw* Kidd's body making contact with Napoleon's blade, nor does his body positioning suggest he laid there and took the hit only to end up flipped around. We also know he still retained function of his limbs beforehand, because we saw him grab his head. Oda *did draw* lightning being produced, and the aftereffects of MamaRaid are consistent with a target she just shocked instead of cut. You're welcome to tumble through the One Piece story under severe misconceptions of how durability tends to go, though just know that there's ample examples pre-and-post-skip showing the absurdity of what you're saying. I'm not even going to bother conjuring examples because you've handwaved the Roger/WB ones, and this is some obvious shit. At the end of the day, your position that Kidd's unHardened, COC-shroudless, Advanced-COA-less, scale-less, non-mutant skin took a forceful swing from a serious & healthy Big Mom sword is one of the more *shamelessly* false positions I've seen in this section. I don't think "Kidd ain't Big Mom or Kaido body-wise" is controversial, and yet here we are.

Zoro's durability wasn't affected at all by Onimaru, *his focus obviously was*, hence no defense via Hardening or weaponry. That tends to happen with multiple opponents for most characters; split focus has consequences such as being pierced by an unHardened nameless scythe.


Great Potato said:


> Am I supposed to be impressed by Doflamingo cutting a bunch of objects like rifles or bridges? The Strawhats survived because Doflamingo's attacks weren't strong enough to finish them off.


Oh I get it now: DD's cutting power was so low that a single casual swipe had the third strongest StrawHat leaking despite him being a COA user, and so low that Luffy did his best to dodge those cuts throughout his fight including during G4. Sanji not losing a limb or anything must mean DD was working with dull plastic blades here, unlike Zoro vs *most people he's cut* retaining their forms, or Luffy vs *most people's he's struck* not getting disfigured or pasted. _Right_. Your suspension of disbelief for passive censorship within the plot is amazingly selective.


Great Potato said:


> I like how every time someone takes an attack that doesn't suit your narrative you claim it was _"barely dodged"_, it looks like a pretty clear hit to me.


What a thorough self-genjutsu you've put yourself under if you can look at Oda drawing *a line of impact next to Luffy's body* and conclude Luffy took the technique directly. Luffy being grazed by it is why he's bleeding and didn't get a gash down the center of his body. You've gone through the trouble of posting a variety of panels, but it'd help you understand the lunacy of your positions if you actually looked at them with the stan-goggles off.


Great Potato said:


> I do think the attack where he grapples and preps them for the big cut is more lethal than the majority of his arsenal, and it got more results than the rest of his arsenal.


There is no real difference in the quality of the strings produced for Fullbright, Goshikito, Athlete Thread, and Fretsaw. Law was pierced perfectly fine four times over by Fullbright because his body, like Kidd's or Killer's, requires effort to defend against cutting or piercing. DD holding Law before using Hacksaw was a natural extension of DD blocking Mes by grabbing his wrist, and appeared to be in an attempt to prevent escape or limb-oriented defense. At best, you could argue _Birdcage_ offers a different/superior class of cutting string to the other base ones, but since DD can comfortably produce enough of it to make the damn cage out of what's contained in a single clone, acting like Fretsaw's string is special is even sillier.


Great Potato said:


> *How does cutting DR Law prove their effectiveness on Killer?
> 
> Killer has survived Indra, Tenjin, and Fulgora* and still went on to stomp a fellow Supernova without missing a beat.


Dearest sir, none of those attacks were fucking cutting/piercing attacks. You've listed irrelevant feats for your purpose. Killer is not especially resistant to cutting/piercing damage, sorry to break it you. He needs to block (such as with his weapons or Hardening) like most other OPverse figures, which will be a challenge given the sheer scope of DD's offense and the amount of directions attacks from DD/clones/Awakening will be coming from.


Great Potato said:


> I'm saying Doflamingo won't survive if he takes Beheading Claws because of the power and where it's targeted.


I don't see Killer waltzing up to Joker and lopping his head off in a flash, and I agree that DD would in fact die if successfully decapitated, like any character outside Buggy.


Great Potato said:


> I don't know how you can deny that Killer cut clean through the Strawman's weapon, *you think the scythe just split in two on its own?*


Hardly. I'm rejecting your tacit attempt at suggesting Killer did anything to Hawkins above early-Wano Zoro's paygrade, since Zoro merely *blocked* the club (a _different_ weapon than the scythe but besides my point) and *did not failingly slash at the club*. He *didn't need to cut the club* in order to cut the Strawman's body. Zoro also sliced through more of the Strawman than Killer, since Killer only went for the neck and Zoro vertically chopped its whole body in half, but it's a shallow accomplishment since the Strawman itself was not depicted as especially dense. Cutting straws in the shape of a demon, produced by Hawkins, does not actually appear as some grand cutting-power feat IMO.


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## Great Potato (Oct 29, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Athlete Thread's goal is to slice up the target as they're being kicked away,



The goal is to cut the opponent as they're being kicked then why would it not work as he is kicking boundman? How does it make sense to claim that they get kicked away and then somehow cut by the string attached to his foot after they've already been sent flying out of range? Your jumping through hoops trying to justify the shoddy performance.



Datassassin said:


> Damage tends to not happen when you successfully dodge something. The author opted to have his plot-protected hero avoid all giant stabs, while also having none of those giant stabs use Hardening which we know radically enhances offense. Your takeaway being "Gatz tendril = Flap Thread's = Holy Assassin/God Thread" is noted.



You're the one that claimed these are devastating techniques much stronger than Flap Thread without having any evidence of them actually doing damage to anything. That's all we have to gauge his Awakening offense on is the named attack that actually landed which took dozens of hits to break through fatigued Luffy's hardening and couldn't put him down. There's no way to quantify God Thread, but Flap Thread clearly ranks in the upper echelon of his attacks.



Datassassin said:


> The positioning and speed lines make this read as yet another *successful dodge* from Boundman who is near *constantly bouncing* as he moves, and whose _incredible speed_ had already been established.



Lol, playing the "barely dodged" routine yet again, there's both an impact mark on the string and boing sound effect to indicate the attack made contact.



Datassassin said:


> This attempt to bolster Kidd's feats is delusional. Oda *specifically didn't draw* Kidd's body making contact with Napoleon's blade, nor does his body positioning suggest he laid there and took the hit only to end up flipped around. We also know he still retained function of his limbs beforehand, because we saw him grab his head. Oda *did draw* lightning being produced, and the aftereffects of MamaRaid are consistent with a target she just shocked instead of cut. You're welcome to tumble through the One Piece story under severe misconceptions of how durability tends to go, though just know that there's ample examples pre-and-post-skip showing the absurdity of what you're saying. I'm not even going to bother conjuring examples because you've handwaved the Roger/WB ones, and this is some obvious shit. At the end of the day, your position that Kidd's unHardened, COC-shroudless, Advanced-COA-less, scale-less, non-mutant skin took a forceful swing from a serious & healthy Big Mom sword is one of the more *shamelessly* false positions I've seen in this section. I don't think "Kidd ain't Big Mom or Kaido body-wise" is controversial, and yet here we are.



Your argument basically boils down to it doesn't suit your head-canon so it couldn't have happened. Oda could have drawn Hera zapping Kid like how Prometheus hit Law, but instead he chose to have her use Mama Raid on a defenseless Kid. It's a tough pill to swallow but it's the one we were given.



Datassassin said:


> Zoro's durability wasn't affected at all by Onimaru, *his focus obviously was*, hence no defense via Hardening or weaponry. That tends to happen with multiple opponents for most characters; split focus has consequences such as being pierced by an unHardened nameless scythe.



I'm not arguing that Killer would have blown through his weapons if he tried guarding. I'm showing that even with downgraded inferior weapons his hits deal devastating damage as compared to Doflamingo who had characters bouncing back from his slices just fine.



Datassassin said:


> Oh I get it now: DD's cutting power was so low that a single casual swipe had the third strongest StrawHat leaking despite him being a COA user, and so low that Luffy did his best to dodge those cuts throughout his fight including during G4.



Low compared to the damage Killer would deal if he connected his Punishers, yes.



Datassassin said:


> What a thorough self-genjutsu you've put yourself under if you can look at Oda drawing *a line of impact next to Luffy's body* and conclude Luffy took the technique directly. Luffy being grazed by it is why he's bleeding and didn't get a gash down the center of his body. You've gone through the trouble of posting a variety of panels, but it'd help you understand the lunacy of your positions if you actually looked at them with the stan-goggles off.





The attack whipped back up and hit him which is why he's suddenly much higher in the air, grimacing, and bleeding.



Datassassin said:


> There is no real difference in the quality of the strings produced for Fullbright, Goshikito, Athlete Thread, and Fretsaw. Law was pierced perfectly fine four times over by Fullbright because his body, like Kidd's or Killer's, requires effort to defend against cutting or piercing. DD holding Law before using Hacksaw was a natural extension of DD blocking Mes by grabbing his wrist, and appeared to be in an attempt to prevent escape or limb-oriented defense. At best, you could argue _Birdcage_ offers a different/superior class of cutting string to the other base ones, but since DD can comfortably produce enough of it to make the damn cage out of what's contained in a single clone, acting like Fretsaw's string is special is even sillier.



The string isn't different, but the technique is.

If you haven't noticed his Saw attack is taut which makes strings much more tense and sturdy than if you just swing them disconnected, and attached in a way that lets him utilize it like a guillotine as opposed to whipping it around.



Datassassin said:


> Dearest sir, none of those attacks were fucking cutting/piercing attacks. You've listed irrelevant feats for your purpose. Killer is not especially resistant to cutting/piercing damage, sorry to break it you. He needs to block (such as with his weapons or Hardening) like most other OPverse figures, which will be a challenge given the sheer scope of DD's offense and the amount of directions attacks from DD/clones/Awakening will be coming from.



Durability is durability, if you can take powerful attacks then you can take weaker attacks from weaker characters. If DR Sanji can survive those strings than naturally much more powerful characters than him will have less to worry about.

It's a laughable argument to pretend that cutting and piercing attacks somehow ignore durability and that a child with a knife can go to town on the likes of Wano Zoro. Are you going to pretend that Kuro can mess up the Rooftop 5 because he has a sword. Perospero took a sword to the face from Sulong Wanda and claw from Sulong Carrot at the same time while his guard was dropped. Ashura Doji couldn't give base Jack more than a shallow cut with a direct hit and he has advanced CoA.



Datassassin said:


> I don't see Killer waltzing up to Joker and lopping his head off in a flash, and I agree that DD would in fact die if successfully decapitated, like any character outside Buggy.



So Doflamingo would die if Killer landed his attack, glad we're clear. Killer would not die if Doflamingo landed his hits.



Datassassin said:


> Hardly. I'm rejecting your tacit attempt at suggesting Killer did anything to Hawkins above early-Wano Zoro's paygrade, since Zoro merely *blocked* the club (a _different_ weapon than the scythe but besides my point) and *did not failingly slash at the club*. He *didn't need to cut the club* in order to cut the Strawman's body. Zoro also sliced through more of the Strawman than Killer, since Killer only went for the neck and Zoro vertically chopped its whole body in half, but it's a shallow accomplishment since the Strawman itself was not depicted as especially dense. Cutting straws in the shape of a demon, produced by Hawkins, does not actually appear as some grand cutting-power feat IMO.



If Zoro struggled to hold back his attack, then Killer being able to cleave clean through like that is a testament to his power.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Datassassin (Oct 29, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> The goal is to cut the opponent *as they're being kicked then why would it not work as he is kicking boundman?*


I'll reiterate again that DD *plainly did not knock Boundman away*, and thus could not attempt the subsequent cutting displayed in the first usage of Athlete Thread. _Did you see Boundman get kicked away? _*Or did you instead see the foot get bounced off*, disrupting the maneuver?


Great Potato said:


> How does it make sense to claim that they get kicked away and then somehow cut by the string attached to his foot after they've already been sent flying out of range? Your jumping through hoops trying to justify the shoddy performance.


I'll try to make this as simple as possible for you. *Do you see the strings in Athlete Thread get produced on the top of DD's foot, or on the bottom and behind the foot? 'Yes' or 'no'.* If you agree about the clear as day position of the strings, then we can move on to what you see making contact with Luffy's bouncy ass body.* Does DD kick Boundman with his fuckin heel or sole, or does he instead make contact with the tip/top of the foot? Another 'yes' or 'no'.*

Chapter 782 plainly, clearly, & easily demonstrated the intended mechanism of Athlete Thread. When Luffy tries to block with his forearms, the reader can see strings streaming *behind* from the *bottom* of DD's foot which do not interact with Luffy's body until Luffy is being kicked away.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Great Potato said:


> You're the one that claimed these are devastating techniques much stronger than Flap Thread without having any evidence of them actually doing damage to anything.


Mr. Potato, a great deal of techniques are dodged by their targets in this story. Zoro's infamously large Enma slash didn't hit a soul, but the reader can use context clues and general reasoning to estimate superiority of that slash to other moves within Zoro's arsenal. Overheat never properly landed on anyone's body, but it's reasonable to assume it offered superior cutting power to a single string cutting someone for example. It's funny that you think the onus is on *me* to somehow prove that a bunch of _different_ (visually/in intent/Haki-wise/name-wise) DD Awakening attacks in fact would offer _different_ capacities to damage, as if the author conceived + wrote + drew the same quality of attack hitting *noncombatants, fodder,* and G4's obvious-telegraphed attempted finisher.


Great Potato said:


> That's all we have to gauge his Awakening offense on is the named attack that actually landed which took dozens of hits to break through fatigued Luffy's hardening and couldn't put him down. There's no way to quantify God Thread, but Flap Thread clearly* ranks in the upper echelon of his attacks.*


1) There's no implication of parity between the shit that hit *Gatz*, the threads that pierced through Luffy's chest (and somehow weren't aimed at his face ), Hardened versions of the wumbo tendrils dwarfing G4's body, and the finisher DD hyped up in the Holy Assassin move. Don't shy away from your initial "strongest" phrasing now, which asserted equality of all these Awakening attacks.
2) *Each* small tendril was drawing blood from Luffy when it connected, whereas your phrasing here would mean the jabs collectively made a piercing wound. Not the case, & not what was drawn.


Great Potato said:


> Lol, playing the "barely dodged" routine yet again, there's both an *impact* mark on the string and *boing* sound effect to indicate the attack made contact.


1) Boundman *constantly uses Geppou to move*, aka constant *kicking* off of the air to rocket forward. Luffy is most likely bouncing away from the strike, whether that entailed kicking _the air_ again or kicking off against _the tendril_. Equally a dodge either way. The Geppou seen in 790 has *even greater drawn impacts* than when Luffy dodged in 785.
He also makes fuckin "boings" all the time as he moves around, as you surely recall from even G4's *very first page transformed*.
*Spoiler*: __ 







2) G4 instantly established *how much faster it is than post-Law DD in movement speed*, with multiple points of proof. I'm surprised you're so readily suggesting G4 Luffy was struck by an Awakening attack.


Great Potato said:


> Your argument basically boils down to it doesn't suit your head-canon so it couldn't have happened. Oda could have drawn Hera zapping Kid like how Prometheus hit Law, but instead he chose to have her use Mama Raid on a defenseless Kid. It's a tough pill to swallow but it's the one we were given.


Yes, the long multi-decade history of content in the OPverse in which most characters suffer piercing/cutting damage if they don't defend is a winding expression of my "headcanon". Continue ignoring Roger's execution, WB at MF, Law vs DD on both ends, Zoro vs Killer, etc.

*You don't have any visual or textual evidence* of Big Mom's sword gracing Kidd's skin. You don't have *a crumb of logic* to your assertion that an injured Kidd blinked away her direct serious strike, failing to dodge or defend, as if Kidd himself was Big Mom or Kaido.


Great Potato said:


> I'm not arguing that Killer would have blown through his weapons if he tried guarding. I'm showing that even with downgraded inferior weapons his hits deal devastating damage as compared to Doflamingo who had characters bouncing back from his slices just fine.


Refer to the prior commentary on conscious defense & the Killer-Kidd exchange. This isn't even worth pursuing; *Zoro, too, does not have steel skin or scales *nor did he get any indication of a Haki defense*.* Very surprising, I know. Killer cutting Zoro, *without Zoro defending*, means nothing for the cutting power Killer wields.


Great Potato said:


> The attack *whipped back up and hit him* which is why he's suddenly much higher in the air, grimacing, and bleeding.


I neither agree with (since Luffy often jumped in the fight, and we see Luffy represented as a dot *above* the castle in the 783 shot preceding Overheat) nor _mind_ the essence of that interpretation, as the technique is still intended to cut the target with a head on severing whip. This is evidenced by its debut against Sanji, where we see it cleanly cleave a building and that's it.


Great Potato said:


> The string isn't different, but the technique is.
> 
> If you haven't noticed his Saw attack is taut which makes strings much more tense and sturdy than if you just swing them disconnected, and attached in a way that lets him utilize it like a guillotine as opposed to whipping it around.


1) The tension of the finger-produced strings was never depicted as lacking, given they constantly clashed with Law's sword. Birdcage suggests Ito Ito strings intended for cutting have an innate rigidity.
2) I don't buy that a single string produced behind DD's heel and _not connected to anything visible_ results in a slash with greater cutting-power than swipes from his arms ft. 4x as many strings _not connected to anything visible, simply by pressing downwards and not conducting a strike_. The aftereffects of a *blocked* Goshikito were severe on the castle, and it was DD's go-to for hastily cutting Fujitora's meteors.
3) We know Law felt Goshikito was enough to cut into him, hence him using Hardened arms to block it; we also know Fullbright was enough to pierce through him 4x over, along with Bullet String (also just not in the eye or anything important) such as in 729.

Killer (or Kidd) would need to consciously block any of these things, in any number of available ways, in order to remain undamaged.


Great Potato said:


> Are you going to pretend that Kuro can mess up the Rooftop 5 because he has a sword. Perospero took a sword to the face from Sulong Wanda and claw from Sulong Carrot at the same time while his guard was dropped. Ashura Doji couldn't give base Jack more than a shallow cut with a direct hit and he has advanced CoA.


1) If Luffy, Zoro, Killer, Kidd, and Law *let* Kuro cut into them by not defending whatsoever, of course.
2) Still struggling to understand that Oda actively tries to draw/write around gore that may otherwise be rational. The cutting power of that mink duo is not especially hyped or supported, and much like Sanji, it's possible base COA (remember that?) mitigated some cutting damage.
3) Ashura's slash was neither named nor Hardened, and the Scabbards as a whole have a wealth of material to argue for them being anomalous when later confronting Kaido, ranging beyond ordinary asspulling to Fire Festival theorization and the nature of Haki itself.


Great Potato said:


> So Doflamingo would die if Killer landed his attack, glad we're clear. Killer would not die if Doflamingo landed his hits.


DD is also fully capable of slaying Killer through cutting and/or piercing attacks if they land. DD, unlike Killer, has oceans of Awakening strings, independent clones, range, and the fairest move ever in Parasite to make those attacks land.


Great Potato said:


> If Zoro struggled to hold back his attack, then Killer being able to cleave clean through like that is a testament to his power.


...There's no such relationship between striking force produced and structural durability of the striker.


Great Potato said:


> *Durability is durability*, if you can take powerful attacks then you can take weaker attacks from weaker characters. If DR Sanji can survive those strings than naturally much more powerful characters than him will have less to worry about.


That is a caveman lens devoid of even commonplace nuance. You can easily just examine post-skip Luffy, and not even the dozens and dozens of other OPverse characters with easy examples abound, to see a (realistic) difference between taking blunt force and getting cut or pierced. A great deal of posters make jokes about "Two Piece", but it's at moments like this that I wonder if there are truly Two fuckin Pieces. Off of your nonsensical interpretation of the series, Luffy can sit his ass down (Haki at rest) and let Usopp ram a knife in his eye, and that shit just bounces off to you because Usopp is an ant of a combatant to him. Do you hear yourself? Hast thou spoketh thine words out loud, to see the lunacy?

Big Mom and Kaido wouldn't be known for special bodies if durability worked like you think it does. Tekkai wouldn't be a special technique, and Hardening wouldn't be a valued skill. Everyone in One Piece is an Arrancar from Bleach to you with their 'Haki Level' determining Hierro strength. Lmao, please.


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## arv993 (Oct 29, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> I understand people like Doffy as a character but just cuz you like someone doesn't make them strong. The preskip Antagonist are still the best Antagonist in One Piece, and 90% of them get folded by Hody lmao.


Doffy got hype and survived two supernovas. Took a GK and still gave luffy a high diff fight and outlasted him. 

Kuzan called Doffy an exceptional pirate, the man could hurt ppl easily with his awakening he’s above a yc3 and is most likely a YC2 level character.


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## BladeofTheMorning (Oct 30, 2021)

DD takes it extreme. He’s not going to stand there like a retard tanking hits. Goes awakening and takes it from there. Killer can’t hit what he can’t touch, DD goes aerial and killer is left there wondering how to hit him.


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## arv993 (Oct 30, 2021)

BladeofTheMorning said:


> DD takes it extreme. He’s not going to stand there like a retard tanking hits. Goes awakening and takes it from there. Killer can’t hit what he can’t touch, DD goes aerial and killer is left there wondering how to hit him.


Couldn’t Doffy theoretically trap ppl in bird cage or atleast anyone without flight?


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## Great Potato (Oct 30, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> I'll reiterate again that DD *plainly did not knock Boundman away*, and thus could not attempt the subsequent cutting displayed in the first usage of Athlete Thread. _Did you see Boundman get kicked away? _*Or did you instead see the foot get bounced off*, disrupting the maneuver?
> 
> I'll try to make this as simple as possible for you. *Do you see the strings in Athlete Thread get produced on the top of DD's foot, or on the bottom and behind the foot? 'Yes' or 'no'.* If you agree about the clear as day position of the strings, then we can move on to what you see making contact with Luffy's bouncy ass body.* Does DD kick Boundman with his fuckin heel or sole, or does he instead make contact with the tip/top of the foot? Another 'yes' or 'no'.*
> 
> ...



Did you even look at your own scan? Oda literally does a close-up of his foot and we can undeniably see that the strings are coming out of the front end of his shoe, clear as day.



It trails behind him for the kick because that's what happens when you swing string around, it drags and then whips forward with the momentum. You're jumping through ridiculous hoops right now with this bizarre assertion that Doflamingo has a slashing attack that hits with the blunt end and then somehow slashes them after they've already been launched away.



Datassassin said:


> Mr. Potato, a great deal of techniques are dodged by their targets in this story. Zoro's infamously large Enma slash didn't hit a soul, but the reader can use context clues and general reasoning to estimate superiority of that slash to other moves within Zoro's arsenal. Overheat never properly landed on anyone's body, but it's reasonable to assume it offered superior cutting power to a single string cutting someone for example. It's funny that you think the onus is on *me* to somehow prove that a bunch of _different_ (visually/in intent/Haki-wise/name-wise) DD Awakening attacks in fact would offer _different_ capacities to damage, as if the author conceived + wrote + drew the same quality of attack hitting *noncombatants, fodder,* and G4's obvious-telegraphed attempted finisher.
> 
> 1) There's no implication of parity between the shit that hit *Gatz*, the threads that pierced through Luffy's chest (and somehow weren't aimed at his face ), Hardened versions of the wumbo tendrils dwarfing G4's body, and the finisher DD hyped up in the Holy Assassin move. Don't shy away from your initial "strongest" phrasing now, which asserted equality of all these Awakening attacks.
> 2) *Each* small tendril was drawing blood from Luffy when it connected, whereas your phrasing here would mean the jabs collectively made a piercing wound. Not the case, & not what was drawn.



In the battledome we use things that we can actually quantify. If someone comes in and claims Kaido would be dead or even reduced to 50% if he took that Enma slash he missed then we wouldn't take that seriously because we only scale off his best feat, which in Zoro's case would be giving Kaido a scar with Ashura. If God Thread gave some semblance of struggle than we'd have something, but it's only showing is getting neg-diffed by KKG.



Datassassin said:


> 1) Boundman *constantly uses Geppou to move*, aka constant *kicking* off of the air to rocket forward. Luffy is most likely bouncing away from the strike, whether that entailed kicking _the air_ again or kicking off against _the tendril_. Equally a dodge either way. The Geppou seen in 790 has *even greater drawn impacts* than when Luffy dodged in 785.
> He also makes fuckin "boings" all the time as he moves around, as you surely recall from even G4's *very first page transformed*.
> *Spoiler*: __



He's making boings on that page because he's bouncing off a surface, which you can clearly see by all the impact bubbles on the ground beneath his feet where the sound effects are.



Datassassin said:


> *You don't have any visual or textual evidence* of Big Mom's sword gracing Kidd's skin. You don't have *a crumb of logic* to your assertion that an injured Kidd blinked away her direct serious strike, failing to dodge or defend, as if Kidd himself was Big Mom or Kaido.



Big Mom uses an attack on Kid, Oda showcases that Kid is completely vulnerable and still reeling from the headache before it lands, and the next panel Kid is laid out from the blow. I'd say that's pretty clear interpretation of the manga, where you're trying to argue that Oda trolled the readers and Kid performed some great off-panel escape that was never even vaguely implied despite being subdued by Hawkins.

Your entire argument for this is literally _"I didn't like it so it didn't happen", _but it's not even the first or the last big hit he's taken from her.



Datassassin said:


> I neither agree with (since Luffy often jumped in the fight, and we see Luffy represented as a dot *above* the castle in the 783 shot preceding Overheat) nor _mind_ the essence of that interpretation, as the technique is still intended to cut the target with a head on severing whip. This is evidenced by its debut against Sanji, where we see it cleanly cleave a building and that's it.



I'm not really impressed by cleaving a building, I'd be more impressed if we saw it cleave somebody powerful.



Datassassin said:


> 1) The tension of the finger-produced strings was never depicted as lacking, given they constantly clashed with Law's sword. Birdcage suggests Ito Ito strings intended for cutting have an innate rigidity.
> 2) I don't buy that a single string produced behind DD's heel and _not connected to anything visible_ results in a slash with greater cutting-power than swipes from his arms ft. 4x as many strings _not connected to anything visible, simply by pressing downwards and not conducting a strike_. The aftereffects of a *blocked* Goshikito were severe on the castle, and it was DD's go-to for hastily cutting Fujitora's meteors.
> 3) We know Law felt Goshikito was enough to cut into him, hence him using Hardened arms to block it; we also know Fullbright was enough to pierce through him 4x over, along with Bullet String (also just not in the eye or anything important) such as in 729.



There are levels of tensions, attacks like Overheat and Athlete and such we can clearly see flowing with momentum as opposed to the drawn taut string of the saw, and it shouldn't take Sherlock Homes to realize that the string is attached to his calf heading up his pant leg at that angle. Arguments like that make you come off as purposely obtuse to fit your narrative.



Datassassin said:


> 1) If Luffy, Zoro, Killer, Kidd, and Law *let* Kuro cut into them by not defending whatsoever, of course.
> 2) Still struggling to understand that Oda actively tries to draw/write around gore that may otherwise be rational. The cutting power of that mink duo is not especially hyped or supported, and much like Sanji, it's possible base COA (remember that?) mitigated some cutting damage.
> 3) Ashura's slash was neither named nor Hardened, and the Scabbards as a whole have a wealth of material to argue for them being anomalous when later confronting Kaido, ranging beyond ordinary asspulling to Fire Festival theorization and the nature of Haki itself.



Lol, fodder Kuro can apparently fuck up the RT5 if he scored some hits, but Sulong Wanda and Carrot need to prove their cutting power. You have no right to pretend other people are making shameless arguments when you come in with takes like that.



Datassassin said:


> ...There's no such relationship between striking force produced and structural durability of the striker.



There literally is, you're legit arguing against basic physics right now.



Here's a demonstration of what happens when a weapon doesn't have the durability to withstand the impact of its own force on block.



Datassassin said:


> That is a caveman lens devoid of even commonplace nuance. You can easily just examine post-skip Luffy, and not even the dozens and dozens of other OPverse characters with easy examples abound, to see a (realistic) difference between taking blunt force and getting cut or pierced. A great deal of posters make jokes about "Two Piece", but it's at moments like this that I wonder if there are truly Two fuckin Pieces. Off of your nonsensical interpretation of the series, Luffy can sit his ass down (Haki at rest) and let Usopp ram a knife in his eye, and that shit just bounces off to you because Usopp is an ant of a combatant to him. Do you hear yourself? Hast thou spoketh thine words out loud, to see the lunacy?
> 
> Big Mom and Kaido wouldn't be known for special bodies if durability worked like you think it does. Tekkai wouldn't be a special technique, and Hardening wouldn't be a valued skill. Everyone in One Piece is an Arrancar from Bleach to you with their 'Haki Level' determining Hierro strength. Lmao, please.



We have manga proof of Sulong Wanda and Carrot taking a sword and claws to Perospero's face and him still being in condition to beat them both up and handle Nekomamushi afterwards. Which of course you then tried making excuses for claiming he defended with invisible CoA, despite the fact he was taken completely off guard, and despite the fact you claimed Zoro couldn't have been using haki to defend Killer because he was taken off guard.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Empathy (Oct 30, 2021)

I would give the edge to Doflamingo with extreme difficulty. Both are YC3 level, IMO, as I have Hawkins, Dressrosa Luffy, and Dressrosa Law as all being YC4 level, and they each bested them. I think beating Luffy and Law together is a more impressive feat than just beating Hawkins, though.

 I would say Killer has higher attack power than Doflamingo does; the problem is that Killer getting one-shot by Oni-giri doesn’t bode well for his durability. I have more faith in Doflamingo being able to survive a hit from some of Killer’s attacks, than I do Killer surviving Doffy’s even, though I think Killer’s attacks pack more of a punch. Doflamingo is also a lot more versatile and Killer doesn’t have much of an answer to attacks like parasite, so I think he has a better work around than Killer’s straight-forward and linear fighting style. It could honestly go either way and I can see the case for Killer, but I’d favor Doflamingo, personally.


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## Datassassin (Oct 30, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Did you even look at your own scan? Oda literally does a close-up of his foot and we can undeniably see that the strings are coming out of the front end of his shoe, clear as day.
> 
> 
> 
> It trails behind him for the kick because that's what happens when you swing string around, it drags and then whips forward with the momentum. You're jumping through ridiculous hoops right now with this bizarre assertion that Doflamingo has a slashing attack that hits with the blunt end and then somehow slashes them after they've already been launched away.


It's not something called a hook kick, DD does not make initial contact with the rear or bottom of the foot. You can plainly see the strings not cutting into the target at the point of impact because they're easily identifiable lines that are seen behind the fuckin foot. A blunt attack that shifts into a cutting motion *after the blunt impact* is exactly what Athlete Thread is, like someone hitting you with a knife butt and then cutting you with the blade _afterwards in the complete arc of motion_.


Great Potato said:


> In the battledome we use things that we can actually quantify. If someone comes in and claims Kaido would be dead or even reduced to 50% if he took that Enma slash he missed then we wouldn't take that seriously because we only scale off his best feat, which in Zoro's case would be giving Kaido a scar with Ashura. If God Thread gave some semblance of struggle than we'd have something, but it's only showing is getting neg-diffed by KKG.


In the Battledome we ideally use reason above anything else, and if any particular missed attack has sufficient hype or implications of powerful traits, it's irrational to then treat that attack as a cottonball. *You also don't even abide by what you've stated here*, since you earnestly have attempted to use the idea of "Big Mom's dual soul construct, full seriousness, healthy named slash on an injured Kidd did nothing to his unHardened skin" because that a) never got drawn, b) never got textually implied, c) is in direct opposition to Kidd's passive defensive showings.


Great Potato said:


> He's making boings on that page because he's bouncing off a surface, which you can clearly see by all the impact bubbles on the ground beneath his feet where the sound effects are.


*The raw premise of Geppou is bouncing off of the air with great force as if it were a surface*, to be clear. The impact was representative of his motion like the myriad of other impacts representative of his motion. His Boundman usage is littered with "boing" sound effects from those motions, and the 785 page immediately after the panel you've misinterpreted as a landed strike _also_ has a "boing" sound effect despite the specific curved speed lines drawn indicating Luffy went _over_ the tendril in question.


Great Potato said:


> Big Mom uses an attack on Kid, Oda showcases that Kid is completely vulnerable and still reeling from the headache before it lands, and the next panel Kid is laid out from the blow. I'd say that's pretty clear interpretation of the manga, where you're trying to argue that Oda trolled the readers and Kid performed some great off-panel escape that was never even vaguely implied despite being subdued by Hawkins.
> 
> Your entire argument for this is literally _"I didn't like it so it didn't happen", _but it's not even the first or the last big hit he's taken from her.


"Completely vulnerable", like Kidd was some newborn baby in a vegetative state. We see him still moving his arms around, plainly pick himself off of the ground from a laying position pre-MamaRaid, then *look up at and face* MamaRaid. He's facing Big Mom before the strike, and then facing away from her _laying down_ after we see her sword hit the ground. The author/artist who specifically chooses what to draw *did not draw* Kidd getting slashed by MamaRaid, yet *did repeatedly draw* lightning crackling around the blade. People laying around amid smoke is consistent with the aftereffects of electrocution seen in Wano and elsewhere in the manga.

In addition to this, you lack any set-up in the story for Kidd having Big Mom/Kaido quality skin. The reach you've done here is Luffyian. You seemingly also see nothing off with Kidd reacting more to Hawkins banging his head against a wall (because Hawkins is just renowned for strength) than Big Mom's "successfully landed sword slash".


Great Potato said:


> There are levels of tensions, attacks like Overheat and Athlete and such we can clearly see flowing with momentum as opposed to the drawn taut string of the saw, and it shouldn't take Sherlock Homes to realize that the string is attached to his calf heading up his pant leg at that angle.


Tension cannot be the "it factor" you're presenting it as here because, again, the general Goshikito strings had zero problems against Law's Haki-backed sword. There was never any remote indication that DD's hand-strings were in danger of being forced back, or lacking in cutting power, just because we as the reader didn't ever see those taut strings connected to anything. Their innate rigidity in concert with bodily force generated from swings and leverage was sufficient, so I reject your idea that "a single string leaning on Law's arm and coasting off of a collision with the ground is a level of cutting force above what DD is generally working with". No _reasonable person_ looks at Oars Jr's limb loss, much tougher of a limb than Law's, and goes "oh Hacksaw is base DD's strongest cutting method, Killer doesn't possibly get scratched otherwise, GG".


Great Potato said:


> Arguments like that make *you* come off as *purposely obtuse to fit your narrative.*





Great Potato said:


> Lol, fodder Kuro can apparently fuck up the RT5 if he scored some hits, but Sulong Wanda and Carrot need to prove their cutting power. You have no right to pretend other people are making shameless arguments when you come in with takes like that.


Reexamine Wanda and Carrot slashing at Perospero; nothing about their 995 positioning *demands* that they take his head off with the depth of their cuts. Additionally, characters are able to apply COA at great speeds to defend; DD went as far as to apply full-on Hardening at the last second against Rhino Schneider, so I don't think it'd be ludicrous for even a weaker character like Perospero to muster some invisible base COA at the last second against enemies in front of him.

I don't _do_ contortions like those found in your "Kidd suddenly = Big Mom/Kaido flesh" posturing, or your "uhh I can't see what side strings are on" posturing for Athlete Thread, or your "uhhh rubbery Geppou user having impacts drawn with 'boing's is incomprehensible" posturing for pretending like Awakening was catching G4 Luffy. 

Kuro, Meadows, any of the inevitably recovered marines or pirates that Zoro failed to bisect or de-limb over the decades, and random nameless government executioners such as those ready to decapitate Ace (and wrecked by Croc's attacks) *all* could slit the throats of any *d e f e n s e l e s s* Supernova on the roof because that is indeed just how One Piece durability works.


Great Potato said:


> There literally is, you're legit arguing against basic physics right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a demonstration of what happens when a weapon doesn't have the durability to withstand the impact of its own force on block.


The weapons used against Zoro and Killer were different, a scythe vs a spiked club. Different structures, and different interactions; Zoro merely blocked a club swipe at him, and proceeded to cleave through more of the Strawman's body than Killer with a flying slash (and *not even direct contact like Killer*). Killer cutting through the handle of the scythe is not some point over Zoro's performance here. The vast majority of sword slashes on OPverse targets blocking don't end with the sword breaking, as evidenced by Zoro's *plethora of clashes with fodder over the decades* and named opponents with greatly inferior COA. The spiked club not exploding upon getting blocked is not a knock against Zoro in any way, nor does that have any bearing on the density of the Strawman itself.

We as the reader have no knowledge of the quality of Queen's random sword either, nor of if he put invisible COA into the strike or not. Queen seemed to think Sanji wasn't in the process of using COA at all on the cook's end, and could have lazily and arrogantly opted to not use any on his strike.


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## Great Potato (Nov 1, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> It's not something called a hook kick, DD does not make initial contact with the rear or bottom of the foot. You can plainly see the strings not cutting into the target at the point of impact because they're easily identifiable lines that are seen behind the fuckin foot. A blunt attack that shifts into a cutting motion *after the blunt impact* is exactly what Athlete Thread is, like someone hitting you with a knife butt and then cutting you with the blade _afterwards in the complete arc of motion_.



Here is clear visual evidence of Athlete strings coming from the front of his shoe and here we see the front tip of his shoe digging into Luffy. How exactly is that the blunt end of the knife? Looks like as direct a hit you could get with the strings to me.




Datassassin said:


> In the Battledome we ideally use reason above anything else, and if any particular missed attack has sufficient hype or implications of powerful traits, it's irrational to then treat that attack as a cottonball. *You also don't even abide by what you've stated here*, since you earnestly have attempted to use the idea of "Big Mom's dual soul construct, full seriousness, healthy named slash on an injured Kidd did nothing to his unHardened skin" because that a) never got drawn, b) never got textually implied, c) is in direct opposition to Kidd's passive defensive showings.



So you consider Flap Thread a cotton-ball? I'm using the strongest attack of his that we can quantify and see connect to gauge his high-end output which is how the battledome works. Hawkins card of Destruction would naturally be more powerful than his Card of Pursuit, but without any feats to quantify the power we wouldn't start making claims saying Zoro would have been blown away and wounded if he tried blocking that Strawman instead.



Datassassin said:


> "Completely vulnerable", like Kidd was some newborn baby in a vegetative state. We see him still moving his arms around, plainly pick himself off of the ground from a laying position pre-MamaRaid, then *look up at and face* MamaRaid. He's facing Big Mom before the strike, and then facing away from her _laying down_ after we see her sword hit the ground. The author/artist who specifically chooses what to draw *did not draw* Kidd getting slashed by MamaRaid, yet *did repeatedly draw* lightning crackling around the blade. People laying around amid smoke is consistent with the aftereffects of electrocution seen in Wano and elsewhere in the manga.



Kid moving his arm to his head wasn't to showcase he was mobile and active, it was to show he took another headbutt from Hawkins and was vulnerable in pain which left him unable to defend against the incoming attack. The lightning is crackling because it's an electrified blade like the Hera version of Cognac, it's not some big lightning AoE attack. 



Datassassin said:


> In addition to this, you lack any set-up in the story for Kidd having Big Mom/Kaido quality skin. The reach you've done here is Luffyian. You seemingly also see nothing off with Kidd reacting more to Hawkins banging his head against a wall (because Hawkins is just renowned for strength) than Big Mom's "successfully landed sword slash".



He's commenting on Hawkins attacks because he doesn't know where they're coming from and they're crippling his chances of taking on Big Mom. If you're in a serious fight with a dude and you start taking constant mysterious damage that's preventing you from focusing on the foe in front of you then that's obviously going to be a top concern.

Oda also just doubled down on his durability by having him brush off an Elbaf Spear the very next chapter.



Datassassin said:


> Tension cannot be the "it factor" you're presenting it as here because, again, the general Goshikito strings had zero problems against Law's Haki-backed sword. There was never any remote indication that DD's hand-strings were in danger of being forced back, or lacking in cutting power, just because we as the reader didn't ever see those taut strings connected to anything. Their innate rigidity in concert with bodily force generated from swings and leverage was sufficient, so I reject your idea that "a single string leaning on Law's arm and coasting off of a collision with the ground is a level of cutting force above what DD is generally working with". No _reasonable person_ looks at Oars Jr's limb loss, much tougher of a limb than Law's, and goes "oh Hacksaw is base DD's strongest cutting method, Killer doesn't possibly get scratched otherwise, GG".



What exactly makes Oars Jr. tougher than Law or Killer? He took some cannonballs and then got fucked up by Kuma, Doflamingo, and Moria like he was made of butter. Call me when he brushes off Indra or Fulgora and we can discuss him being tougher than them.



Datassassin said:


> Reexamine Wanda and Carrot slashing at Perospero; nothing about their 995 positioning *demands* that they take his head off with the depth of their cuts. Additionally, characters are able to apply COA at great speeds to defend; DD went as far as to apply full-on Hardening at the last second against Rhino Schneider, so I don't think it'd be ludicrous for even a weaker character like Perospero to muster some invisible base COA at the last second against enemies in front of him. Kuro, Meadows, any of the inevitably recovered marines or pirates that Zoro failed to bisect or de-limb over the decades, and random nameless government executioners such as those ready to decapitate Ace (and wrecked by Croc's attacks) *all* could slit the throats of any *d e f e n s e l e s s* Supernova on the roof because that is indeed just how One Piece durability works.



No indication that Perospero threw up some invisible CoA defense, the manga implies the Sulongs took him entirely off guard. Doflamingo knew he was facing Boundman while the Sulongs snuck Perospero while he was concentrating on Marco. Kuro being able to do anything to the RT5 is a laughable assertion when far more powerful cutting attacks than his have failed to do significant damage.



Datassassin said:


> The weapons used against Zoro and Killer were different, a scythe vs a spiked club. Different structures, and different interactions; Zoro merely blocked a club swipe at him, and proceeded to cleave through more of the Strawman's body than Killer with a flying slash (and *not even direct contact like Killer*). Killer cutting through the handle of the scythe is not some point over Zoro's performance here. The vast majority of sword slashes on OPverse targets blocking don't end with the sword breaking, as evidenced by Zoro's *plethora of clashes with fodder over the decades* and named opponents with greatly inferior COA. The spiked club not exploding upon getting blocked is not a knock against Zoro in any way, nor does that have any bearing on the density of the Strawman itself. We as the reader have no knowledge of the quality of Queen's random sword either, nor of if he put invisible COA into the strike or not. Queen seemed to think Sanji wasn't in the process of using COA at all on the cook's end, and could have lazily and arrogantly opted to not use any on his strike.



Queen using CoA or not is irrelevant to the point as it's still a demonstration of the concept you tried to challenge. A weapon has to have durability equivalent to it's striking force in order to survive the force of it's own attacks, and Killer sliced through an attack that scales favorably to the one that strained Zoro.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Kagutsutchi (Nov 1, 2021)

@Great Potato why are you still taking Datassassin serious?

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## Amol (Nov 1, 2021)

Well I had answered the thread already and of course manga so far has only enforced that Killer is fodderizing DD.

No diff at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Nov 1, 2021)

Killer high diff 
Killer>Dofla>Hawkins


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## Beast (Nov 1, 2021)

Amol said:


> Well I had answered the thread already and of course manga so far has only enforced that Killer is fodderizing DD.
> 
> No diff at all.


That’s sounds a bit like what Great potato is doing to datassassin right now.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Nov 1, 2021)

Beast said:


> That’s sounds a bit like what Great potato is doing to datassassin right now.


Harsh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Datassassin (Nov 2, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> Here is clear visual evidence of Athlete strings coming from the front of his shoe and here we see the front tip of his shoe digging into Luffy. How exactly is that the blunt end of the knife? Looks like as direct a hit you could get with the strings to me.


The strings are produced beneath Doflamingo's toes, on the bottom of his feet, as discernible through Oda's _dark shading of the loafer material relative to the shoe sole_ and the distinction given to the strings. This is not a piercing attack in any remote way, as if it were some sort of lance.


The two components of the attack lay in the very-blatant initial blunt force impact, aiming to kick something with the top of the foot (which was the clear point of impact making contact with Luffy's forearms and not the tip itself in the first usage of the kick) before some sort of twist sufficient-enough to cut into that target with the strings plainly drawn streaming behind the foot. This isn't a matter of subjective interpretation, because you can see what part of DD's foot slams into Luffy's forearms.

You can see the emphasis given to the strings behind DD's foot in both usages of Athlete Thread. The reason strings are visible in one angle of DD's 2nd Athlete Thread from behind his 785 kick, and *completely unseen from the opposite direction *on the next page, is because he is *not leading with the fucking strings* in either usage. It's not an attempt to stab a target with the strings, which would also be inconsistent with his base string usage; the strings are generally *anchored to his body*, but you're suggesting strings clearly streaming behind DD's leg are not anchored under the loafer but in fact stream as a lance beyond his foot (but still _visually attached_ to the foot's underside for 'reasons' I guess). Post-Law DD not expecting Luffy's body to be so bouncy was his immediate thought upon his kick failing, not a commentary on Luffy being too hard to cut, but too rubbery to kick around as he'd done.


Great Potato said:


> So you consider Flap Thread a cotton-ball? I'm using the strongest attack of his that we can quantify and see connect to gauge his high-end output which is how the battledome works. Hawkins card of Destruction would naturally be more powerful than his Card of Pursuit, but without any feats to quantify the power we wouldn't start making claims saying Zoro would have been blown away and wounded if he tried blocking that Strawman instead.


Clearly you've considered DD's offense to be akin to the tossing of cottonballs through your audacious position of Killer _not needing to defend_ against DD's cutting/piercing attacks, and irrational lowballing of DD's offense off of missed strikes beyond casual skewering of noncombatants. The narrative never once presented DD's string as anything other than incredibly sharp, incredibly durable metallic-magic constructs that even devoid of Haki were fearsome (stressed with scenes like a serious Zoro using Hardened meitos on the Hakiless Birdcage, and Luffy continually dodging even unHardened Awakening tendrils). One Piece Hierro has been something to learn about from you, but someone needs to tell Oda. Despite your textual framing there, you're being a stranger to reason; there is no sense in looking at the giant Awakened tendrils, knowing DD can Harden them to vastly increase their threat level, and then equating their threat level with the small lazy tendril used to (_conveniently nonlethally_) impale Gatz.

Your Hawkins example is irrelevant because the shift of weapons, from a spiked club to a separate scythe, can already constitute destructive advantage consistent-enough with the card's theme even if the Strawman's swinging-power remained constant. While it's evidently been in your interest to laughably slide Hawkins hype across your prior posts to make Killer look good relative to early-Wano Zoro, I'll re-address some of the points you relied on: Hawkins is not fast, and blitzing him is not special. Hawkins capacity to defend is not great, so dealing damage to his body (like Zoro or Law comfortably did) is also not special. Killer wrecking Hawkins, *as Law already did earlier in the arc, and as early-Wano Zoro was depicted as able to do in closer non-fleeing circumstances*, is not some weighty reference here.


Great Potato said:


> Kid moving his arm to his head wasn't to showcase he was mobile and active, it was to show he took another headbutt from Hawkins and was vulnerable in pain which left him unable to defend against the incoming attack. The lightning is crackling because it's an electrified blade like the Hera version of Cognac, it's not some big lightning AoE attack.


Kidd being bodily disadvantaged, and recoiling in pain from something, *does not directly translate to the leg paralysis you're asserting he suffered from after turning to Big Mom*. Terrible logic. You're also consistently overlooking *Kidd being more pained by headbutts transferred from fucking Hawkins*, as if that goon were Garp or Jozu & not _absolutely hypeless strengthwise_, *than Big Mom* in all of her health/seriousness/blade usage. More terrible logic. You're also suggesting the only way Big Mom could have lightning spread from her slash to hit a very-close target would be in a "big lightning AoE attack", when by all accounts she would be in control of how far to spread lightning outwards from the impact without needing to fill an area. She can consciously use elemental attacks of any size.


Great Potato said:


> He's commenting on Hawkins attacks because he doesn't know where they're coming from and they're crippling his chances of taking on Big Mom. If you're in a serious fight with a dude and you start taking constant mysterious damage that's preventing you from focusing on the foe in front of you then that's obviously going to be a top concern.
> 
> Oda also just *doubled down on his durability by having him brush off an Elbaf Spear* the very next chapter.


"Brush off", huh? This is why I've held the 'disingenuous' descriptor up. *Kidd's left arm got destroyed*, along with most of his mecha-made-of-trash formed by Punk Rotten. The Ikoku looks like it fucked Kidd up by grazing him enough to destroy most of his struggle-tier robot, and the likelihood of Kidd taking the Ikoku *squarely* is low (otherwise his own arm wouldn't be destroyed while pieces of his literal-trash robot survived). So, Kidd has Kaido-and-Big-Mom-level base durability to you, but _also_ similar durability to metal garbage. Alright.

I see again that there's no cobbled recourse from you on why exoskeletons, Tekkai, Hardening, COC shrouds, mutations, scales, etc in One Piece are special.


Great Potato said:


> *What exactly makes Oars Jr. tougher than Law or Killer? *He took some cannonballs and then got fucked up by Kuma, Doflamingo, and Moria like he was made of butter. Call me when he brushes off Indra or Fulgora and we can discuss him being tougher than them.





Great Potato said:


> No indication that Perospero threw up some invisible CoA defense, the manga implies the Sulongs took him entirely off guard. Doflamingo knew he was facing Boundman while the Sulongs snuck Perospero while he was concentrating on Marco. Kuro being able to do anything to the RT5 is a laughable assertion when far more powerful cutting attacks than his have failed to do significant damage.



Is this is a real question of passive durability? Nothing about Law's depiction has shown he can take bullets & cannonballs without defending (like through COA) and not be harmed. Nothing about Moriah's stances towards Hakiless Ancient Giant flesh has suggested that their durability isn't innately above humans'. Nothing about Law or Killer's bodies has suggested they can turn their Haki off and remain immune to forceful sharp attacks like from DD's strings. Then again, you see character durability in this insane generalized fashion with blunt force resistance translating to resistance to cutting/piercing, despite the story time and time again shaking you by the shoulders to show you it doesn't operate that way. The Supernova on the roof have *defended* against powerful cutting attacks. "Defending", an action through means including COA application and weaponry, is escaping you here.

Post-Law DD couldn't even see Luffy (who appeared mid-kick in a fusion of Geppou and Soru), getting struck on the side of his face after comprehending Luffy's position at the last second to defend with Hardening, whereas Perospero is struck head-on by people he was able to turn around to face.

Perospero not having his head shredded into many pieces by the mink duo *is not support for your delusion that One Piece characters are Arrancar*. I offered the conjecture over Perospero's COA usage to provide a rational alternative to Carrot/Wanda's cutting power lacking, their strikes _not reaching far enough_, and the irrational censorship Oda constantly engages in. I don't care much one way or another, because COA bolstering defense is a known fact of the OPverse and the base level of COA being invisible is an unavoidable factor on fights.


Great Potato said:


> Queen using CoA or not is irrelevant to the point as it's still a demonstration of the concept you tried to challenge. A weapon has to have durability equivalent to it's striking force in order to survive the force of it's own attacks, and Killer sliced through an attack that scales favorably to the one that strained Zoro.


1) Refer to the previously stated blocking of weapons through this entire story, suspiciously deficient in swung swords shattering all the time and exploding blunt instruments.

2) You attempted to claim Killer cutting through the scythe (*which as a unique creation, Zoro didn't interact with at all*) either had bearing on Zoro's exchange with Hawkins or made Killer's look better than Zoro's. All incorrect. Zoro *never attacked the Strawman's club*, and instead simply blocked it before bisecting the Strawman's body with a flying slash. There's no "favorable" fuckin scaling here , when Killer didn't block a swipe from the club used against Zoro, and Zoro didn't cut through a scythe handle and the Strawman's neck at close range. Floundering false equivalencies.

3) The amount of physical force able to be generated by the Strawman itself does not have a direct relationship with the cutting resistance of the instrument being used to attack. It's also, again, two separate instruments in two fundamentally different physical interactions.

Killer getting successfully bound _and promptly successfully mauled_ remains the most probable end for an exchange between him and DD without the protection of plot (be it through PIS or general censorship), with aforementioned routes like drowning less likely given Killer's absence of Hardening feats.


Amol said:


> Well I had answered the thread already and of course manga so far has only enforced that *Killer is fodderizing DD.
> 
> No diff at all.*


Pivotal commentary from the "Ulti Squashes DD" spokesman himself, wow.  Always a gem to see such insight.


Beast said:


> That’s sounds a bit like what Great potato is doing to datassassin right now.




Riveting that you believe this, and I'm sure Mr. Potato appreciates your moral support in the absence of canonical ones for many of his galling stances.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 2, 2021)

do people seriously still believe doflamingo is relevant?  

has any other fanbase ever coped this hard? maybe enel now that I think about it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Datassassin (Nov 2, 2021)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> do people seriously still believe doflamingo is relevant?


Relevant for the future plot? I don't  currently think Oda will do anything with the character until the end of the story. Even having DD out of prison is an optimistic outlook expressed by people, since something being interesting doesn't have any bearing on it happening.

Relevance on the story written thus far? Absolutely, much more than Daft Punk for instance.

Relevance in objective evaluation of abilities and power? For the character referred to with consequence by Oda recently, and who was named within the Calamity's theme? Duh.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Karma (Nov 2, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Relevance in objective evaluation of abilities and power? For the character referred to with consequence by Oda recently, and who was named within the Calamity's theme? Duh.


His contemporary in Jack got shit on by a guy with a worse rooftop performance than Killer

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Datassassin (Nov 2, 2021)

Karma said:


> His contemporary in Jack got shit on by a guy with a worse rooftop performance than Killer


The other two Calamities are still up and have been fighting Zoro well and Sanji sloppily. If you're unimpressed by Jack going down without showing any sort of Haki, or any named techniques, or any actions requiring more than one neuron, would you further like to pretend DD's overall depiction is interchangeable with Jack's?


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