# Menma & Hokage Naruto vs. Hashirama & Madara



## Rocky (May 2, 2013)

*And a note about this movie. The storyline is an original by Kishimoto himself. That's right, he personally wrote and oversaw the creation of this film, making it _canon_.  



Location: Vote
Distance: Opposing Heads
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Hashirama's Sage Mode. Madara's Kurama. Assume that the two Jinchuriki have control over their Bijuu, and Madara cannot control them with the Sharingan. Hashirama however can still suppress them if he's granted an opening to do so.

Hokage Nauruto & Menma are the two versions of Naruto that fought it out at the end of Movie 6. 

If you're unfamiliar with Menma, go .

Naruto remains the same, except he looses the ability to use Bijuu Mode. Though in exchange, he gains the ability to summon Kurama who will fight along side Naruto for the purpose of this thread. He is also rockin dat 4th Hokage cloak.





_Scenario 2_


Replace Hashi & Madz with Itachi & Nagato.

New restrictions: Summoning Kurama, Gedo Mazo, Koto


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## Kai (May 2, 2013)

If I'm not mistaken Naruto didn't or couldn't ascend beyond Sage Mode in the movie, either because of in character or capability. Kurama by himself won't make any sort of progress against Hashirama, and Menma's 'Kurama' is even weaker than the real Kurama.

Hashirama and Madara destroy them.

The action in that movie was severely lacking. Character interaction and plot progression was on a totally different plane than the previous movies though.


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## Rocky (May 2, 2013)

Kai said:


> If I'm not mistaken Naruto didn't or couldn't ascend beyond Sage Mode in the movie, either because of in character or capability. Kurama by himself won't make any sort of progress against Hashirama, and Menma's 'Kurama' is even weaker than the real Kurama.



Naruto planned to use the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode against Menma, but Kurama insisted that he refrain as he would still be no match for the might of AU Kurama. Menma has abilities of his own besides the Kyuubi fusion as well. He can operate on Nagato's maximum scale in Base, but without the strain, life-shortening, and recharge time.

Though I do agree this is somewhat of a losing battle, and I would pick the Rival Duo here if I wasn't the OP. Thus is why the second scenario was created.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 4, 2013)

> *And a note about this movie. The storyline is an original by Kishimoto himself. That's right, he personally wrote and oversaw the creation of this film, making it canon.



Sakura being useful is canon?

Sakura fighting equally with a dude who could kicked around SM Naruto in taijutsu is canon?  

I need a reaction gif.



That's better.


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## Rocky (May 4, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sakura fighting equally with a dude who could kicked around SM Naruto in taijutsu is canon?




To be fair, Menma was the one who blocked Sage Naruto. Sakura kept up with Obito, who took over Menma's unconscious body.


And I wouldn't say he kicked him around. He grabbed him and threw him. The impressive part was stopping Naruto's powerful punch.


___________


But yeah, since Kishi wrote it and oversaw is creation, it's technically as canon as the Manga.  

You can tell Kishi wrote it by how badly Menma stomped Tsunade.


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## Lurko (May 4, 2013)

I'm going to go with hasi and mads, menma and naruto don't hit me as powerful.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> To be fair, Menma was the one who blocked Sage Naruto. Sakura kept up with Obito, who took over Menma's unconscious body.
> 
> 
> And I wouldn't say he kicked him around. He grabbed him and threw him. The impressive part was stopping Naruto's powerful punch.



Didn't Obimenma have his sharingan during that fight though?  Keeping up with pre-cog in Menma's body is nothing to laugh at.





> But yeah, since Kishi wrote it and oversaw is creation, it's technically as canon as the Manga.
> 
> You can tell Kishi wrote it by how badly Menma stomped Tsunade.





Alternate Tsunade is BD Tsunade.


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## Sans (May 5, 2013)

Tsunade the Kage is defs not Kage level.

All you wankers need to feel bad.

Tsunade for chuunin, 2016!!!


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## katanalauncher (May 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sakura being useful is canon?
> 
> Sakura fighting equally with a dude who could kicked around SM Naruto in taijutsu is canon?
> 
> ...



Sakura didn't fight on par with him or else Naruto wouldn't have saved her, SM Naruto was only defeated by some unknown ki sort of thing from Menma it's neither Menma's version of sage mode or some some how using kyuubi chakra to enhance physical strength.
Base naruto was fighting on par with Menma pretty easily and did better than Sakura.
If you want ridiculous feats, go for Naruto hitting Obito/Menma with a rasengan.
As for the fight, Hashirama solo based on the fact he's a Bijuu's natural enemy.

Also guys the movie isn't canon as in it won't really fit into the timeline, at least not without severe continuity errors.
But go watch the movie because it's pretty awesome,even though the third act was weaker than the rest.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

Canon just means it's written by the author as far as I know. Continuity shouldn't really matter.


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## katanalauncher (May 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Canon just means it's written by the author as far as I know. Continuity shouldn't really matter.



Sadly canon doesn't work the way you think it does, if an author indicate it's an AU story or if it's accepted as AU then it's considered non canon.
Of courses there are instances where there are multiple canon universe like Fate S/N for example, this is not one of them.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My personal theory is that Sakura is actually an incredibly good amazingly skilled ninja when she isn't around or thinking about canon Sasuke.
> 
> Like after Sasuke left, she came back and was able to fight Kakashi, and Sasori.  Then Sasuke got re-introduced, and she got KO'd by Kabuto's butt.  After that she went from sleep gassing a team of chunin, and sneaking up on Taka Sasuke during a high tier battle, to getting choked out by him and forgetting she had super strength.   And that happened because she stood too many seconds inside the Sasuke field.  He's literal kryptonite.
> 
> ...




Damn that makes sense. Alot.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

katanalauncher said:


> Sakura didn't fight on par with him or else Naruto wouldn't have saved her, SM Naruto was only defeated by some unknown ki sort of thing from Menma(I'll rewatch the scene later)
> Base naruto was fighting on par with Menma pretty easily and did better than Sakura.
> If you want ridiculous feats, go for Naruto hitting Obito/Menma with a rasengan.
> As for the fight, Hashirama solo based on the fact he's a Bijuu's natural enemy.
> ...



It's been awhile since I saw it, and I wasn't totally paying attention.  It's better than the main story though.


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## Lurko (May 5, 2013)

I wush sakura would learn how to be useful.


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## Jad (May 5, 2013)

Wait, did Sakura fight on par with the final boss?


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

No. Menma one-shotted Sakura when fresh and in control of his own mind.

Naruto beat the final boss. Then Ghost Obito possessed the unconscious boss and starting fighting a tired Naruto. Basically, Obito (in the body of Menma, the final boss) was restricted to Taijutsu, but Naruto was too tired to do anything and was quickly out-maneuvered and Sharingan Genjutsu'd. Obito started extracting the Kyuubi from Naruto (since he severely weakened the seal in order to fight on par with Menma), but Sakura jumped in and stopped the process. She then proceeded to _keep up with 3-Tome Obito's Taijutsu._


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

He still had genjutsu, so I think she couldn't look into his eyes either.


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## Jad (May 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No. Menma one-shotted Sakura when fresh and in control of his own mind.
> 
> Naruto beat the final boss. Then Ghost Obito possessed the unconscious boss and starting fighting a tired Naruto. Basically, Obito (in the body of Menma, the final boss) was restricted to Taijutsu, but Naruto was too tired to do anything and was quickly out-maneuvered and Sharingan Genjutsu'd. Obito started extracting the Kyuubi from Naruto (since he severely weakened the seal in order to fight on par with Menma), but Sakura jumped in and stopped the process. She then proceeded to _keep up with 3-Tome Obito's Taijutsu._



I just watched it. What happened to her super strength?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> I just watched it. What happened to her super strength?



Menma has a super strong body too.  He could strength clash with Sage Mode.


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## Jad (May 5, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Menma has a super strong body too.  He could strength clash with Sage Mode.



So I guess Sakura can tank hits greater than Sage Mode strength huh


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2013)

Jad said:


> So I guess Sakura can tank hits greater than Sage Mode strength huh







*Spoiler*: __ 





She can do a lot of stuff when she isn't around Sasuke.  And obviously she's used to tanking Tsunade blows from her "evasion" training.  

Or maybe she can't focus her strength when she's in a high speed fight.  

I just re-watched the fight.  She actually did win the power clashes, and Menbito didn't do crap to her guard when he tried to punch and smash through it.  But then he just kicked under it so whatever.  That didn't seem to damage her too much though, even though his kick to Naruto made him fall to his knees.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

Hashirama or Madara can still solo pretty casually.

Perfect Susano'o is way stronger than the Kyuubi and Hashi's Kyuubi suppression hasn't been restricted here (neither has his chakra-draining wood dragon, for that matter).


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

What exactly gave you the impression that Perfect Susano'o is way stronger than the Kyuubi.


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## Nikushimi (May 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> What exactly gave you the impression that Perfect Susano'o is way stronger than the Kyuubi.



Casually cutting Mokuton that withstood the Kyuubi's Bijuudama.

And just generally having physical attacks on a completely different scale of destruction than what the Kyuubi has demonstrated with its physical attacks.


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## Rocky (May 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Casually cutting Mokuton that withstood the Kyuubi's Bijuudama.
> 
> And just generally having physical attacks on a completely different scale of destruction than what the Kyuubi has demonstrated with its physical attacks.



Ok, so not all of Hashirama's Mokuton structures hold the same durability. Hashirama used a giant defensive dome to protect himself from Bijuudama. Bijuudama had already plowed through the Dragon, proving my point. Madara cut through some hands, which I'm just gonna go with my gut feeling and say they aren't mega durable.


And Susano'o has demonstrated physical feats beyond Kurama, but Susano'o can't shoot mountain eradicating nukes out of it's mouth. Considering the 50% Kyuubi can create _super mega Bijuu Bombs_ after having most of its Chakra ripped out by Naruto, I highly doubt Perfect Susano'o is way stronger. Even the normal Bijuudama cause more damage than Susano'o does with its swings. 

Destructive ability and Stamina go to Kurama, Physical Strength & Durability go to Susano'o, in my opinion at least.


Physical power isn't everything. Madara was able to get rid of Shinsuusenju despite being massively inferior physically.


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## Lurko (May 5, 2013)

Perfect susano and ninetails are near equals probally.


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## Jagger (May 5, 2013)

Lol, suddenly Menma can use Shinra Tensei? Only Kishi would be capable of such thing.


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## Luftwaffles (May 6, 2013)

Eye genjutsu GG.

Dai Rasenringu + Bijuudama spam GG. The duo get nuked.


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