# What level is hiashi at??



## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

1) jounin- darui, asuma
2) high jounin- kakuzu, sasori 
3) kage level- Ei, tsunade, gaara, kakashi, gai etc

Where would you place him ??

I ask as a general question because though Ei is at least a tier above hiashi, i believe hiashi fighting style is really effective against Ei. And that hiashi could actual beat Ei

In the same way i dont believe asuma or darui can compete with hiashi, but to see if i am right. 

Lets do a poll. 

*Within this thread there are 3  matches. 
location: sasuke vs Ei
distance: 25m 
knowledge: reputation 

1) hiashi vs Darui
2) sasori vs hiashi
3) hiashi vs Mei
*

I think hiashi beats all 3 frankly speaking. But then how can he be considered any less than Kage level when he should casually beat Mei and can do better than kisame did against Gai 

Thoughts???


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Haishi is kage level . He's one of the most underestimated characters


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Haishi is kage level . He's one of the most underestimated characters



Agreed, why didnt you vote on the polls???
Also what do you think about the match ups?? 
does he win all ?


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

He beats all 3, I will go into details in a bit. Hyuuga are the strongest of the Leaf, you would do well not to forget this


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 5, 2013)

Hiashi is above Madara because Hyuga is the strongest clan in Konoha, stronger than the Uchiha. 

Seriously, he is at most in top-Jonin level. I doubt he can give any Kage a challenge.

1. Hiashi wins. All Darui's attacks can be countered by Rotation or Air Plams, while Darui lacks speed to hit him assuming Hiashi has a good speed of 4 in DB. Finally Darui will be hit by Gentle Fist and that ends.

2. A hard one. Sasori isn't an easy type for most Shinobi if you lack knowledge on him. I believe Sasori wins, 1 scratch or poison gas breathing means death to Hiashi and Sasori has many AOE attacks that give Hiashi trouble when he stops Rotation.

3. Mei uses Kirigakure no Jutsu with Acid Mist, GG.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Agreed, why didnt you vote on the polls???
> Also what do you think about the match ups??
> does he win all ?



I'm on my phone right now so it's hard to type a long response, but mei looses to empty Air palm. Sasori depends on his satetsu skills and other human puppets, but haishis got kaiten to block attacks and byakugan to find heart container so he's got the skills need to win. Raikage comes down to whether raikage uses top speed first or hashi uses empty air palm first.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> 1) jounin- darui, asuma
> 2) high jounin- kakuzu, sasori
> 3) kage level- Ei, tsunade, gaara, kakashi, gai etc



Sasori is stronger than everyone you just listed in the Kage tier except for A.

He's obviously Kage-level; he beat the 3rd Kazekage and was wielding his power as a weapon. 

He's also stronger than Deidara, who can pretty casually solo a village.



> Where would you place him ??



Hiashi is obviously Jounin-level. Weaker than part 1 Kakashi; maybe around Asuma's level.



> I ask as a general question because though Ei is at least a tier above hiashi, i believe hiashi fighting style is really effective against Ei. And that hiashi could actual beat Ei



Then you're insane, because Hiaishi would get his neck snapped a million times before he ever laid a finger on A.



> In the same way i dont believe asuma or darui can compete with hiashi, but to see if i am right.



Darui could probably beat Hiashi.



> 1) hiashi vs Darui



Darui should know the reputation of Jyuuken and Byakugan; Kumogakure did try to steal the latter during his lifetime, so it must've been a big deal. I don't think he's in danger of getting trolled, but I could be wrong.

Laser Circus is a good Jutsu for exploiting Byakugan's blind spot, provided Darui can figure it out (I don't think it's common knowledge). Either that pays off or it's just a battle of attrition with Hiashi negating all of Darui's Ninjutsu and Darui keeping his distance. Could go either way.



> 2) sasori vs hiashi



Sasori stomps with Sandaime Kazekage or the hundred puppets; Hiashi cannot keep Kaiten going forever and Sasori can literally attack him from every angle at once. It's questionable if Kaiten would even completely stop a large Satetsu spike going at peak velocity.

Chiyo would've been a better match for Hiashi; it wouldn't be a complete stomp, but I'd still give her the win.



> 3) hiashi vs Mei



Mei keeps her distance with Suiton and melts Hiashi with her acid mist.



> I think hiashi beats all 3 frankly speaking. But then how can he be considered any less than Kage level when he should casually beat Mei and can do better than kisame did against Gai
> 
> Thoughts???



You're insane.



Turrin said:


> Haishi is kage level . He's one of the most underestimated characters



Hell no.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

I mean, I have seen some stupid shit in the NBD in my time, but this tops Konan beating Itachi and Darui beating Deidara _combined_.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Inb4 Turrin tries to wall me.

Turrin, you're wrong. Hiashi is fodder.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 5, 2013)

Hiashi is around Elite Jounin Tier with people like Deidara , Kakuzu, I think Sasori is in the tier with Kakashi, Gaara, Gai


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## αce (Aug 5, 2013)

Hiashi is like Asuma level. I don't even care what anyone says.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I mean, I have seen some stupid shit in the NBD in my time, but this tops Konan beating Itachi and Darui beating Deidara _combined_.



Well it depends at what point in the manga Konan>Itachi was stated , of it was her first appearance it would be understandable Becuase she was the second in command to Pain and people would expect her to be stronger , 

Also I could see people thinking Konan(Paper Ocean) being stronger than Sick Itachi who fought Hebi Sasuke

It's only ridiculous if it's been said since Itach's performance in the war

As for Darui beating Deidara that's not far fetched , Darui has shown to be a capable young man and has the elemental advantage to give Deidara nightmares , I mean it would be a close battle but it's not out of th question to think that Darui wins.


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## Veracity (Aug 5, 2013)

Honestly, Sasori is a pussy. He got beat by a fossil and a freaking Chunnin. Not impressive at all. To make matters worse, Sakura hardly knew of his abilities and was still dodging his most intense assaults.

He's low Kage level. Very low.

OT: He might beat D, but he definitely loses to Mei. Her suitons and acid mist will end his life.

If he knows enough about Sasoris poison abilities, he can win against him too.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hiashi is around Elite Jounin Tier with people like Deidara , Kakuzu, I think Sasori is in the tier with Kakashi, Gaara, Gai



Deidara and Kakuzu wash their balls with the elite Jounin tier.

They are both Kage-level.



Eliyua23 said:


> Well it depends at what point in the manga Konan>Itachi was stated , of it was her first appearance it would be understandable Becuase she was the second in command to Pain and people would expect her to be stronger ,



Konan was never stronger than Itachi at any point in the manga; assumptions based on perceived rank are not proper justification for such a belief.



> Also I could see people thinking Konan(Paper Ocean) being stronger than Sick Itachi who fought Hebi Sasuke



If they happened to fight in that one specific area on planet Earth and Itachi just happened to not Amaterasu or Genjutsu the shit out of her first, then yeah, I could see it, too.



> It's only ridiculous if it's been said since Itach's performance in the war



No, it was pretty much ridiculous from the moment base Jiraiya spitballed her in two seconds flat.



> As for Darui beating Deidara that's not far fetched , Darui has shown to be a capable young man and has the elemental advantage to give Deidara nightmares , I mean it would be a close battle but it's not out of th question to think that Darui wins.



Deidara could win with C1 let alone any of his higher-grade chakras.

The moment he starts whipping out C2, Darui is facing death by one-shot.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 5, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Honestly, Sasori is a pussy. He got beat by a fossil and a freaking Chunnin. Not impressive at all. To make matters worse, Sakura hardly knew of his abilities and was still dodging his most intense assaults.
> 
> He's low Kage level. Very low.
> 
> ...



Hmm, make it fair. Chiyo has perfect knowledge on how puppeteers fight, Sakura has brute strength to destroy puppets. They form a powerful combo which is a great counter to Sasori. Even so it is implied that Sasori is holding back in the battle.

Deidara admits that Sasori is stronger than him, 3rd Kazekage who is said to be the strongest Kazekage is defeated by Sasori. Those feats alone should guarantee that Sasori is at Kage level.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Sasori is stronger than everyone you just listed in the Kage tier except for A.
> 
> He's obviously Kage-level; he beat the 3rd Kazekage and was wielding his power as a weapon.
> 
> ...



 Gai, kakashi, tsunade and gaara pawn sasori who is also on the same list as Ei, also Mei can actually defeat sasori. I have no reason to believe otherwise, if she doesnt win she at least competes 

the fact that you say hiashi is weaker than part 1 kakashi means i cant take you seriously. I mean you just said Ei blitz rips hiashi head off, yet you probably the same guy who believes itachi can defeat Ei when he actually is less suited to fight the likes of Ei.  Niku. 

byakugan allows them to evade and redirect attacks much faster than their physical speed since from 50m away they can instantly start redirecting the attack, tell where the attack is coming from and put up a defense. All this was shown by *A GENIN* who even till his death was far weaker than hiashi

what can part 1 kakashi do against juubi second form massive hand coming his way, except die???

Juubi is several times larger than a bijuu and this was juubi second form which got blocked 

empty air palm messes up all of sasori attacks and puppets unless you can somehow show me how they are more durable than juubi hand. Iron sand isnt reaching someone who can redirect an attack without moving by simply releasing chakra. ( see neji vs kidomaru) how do you think neji didnt die against that arrow, he redirected it. hiashi can do the same but much better since hiashi>>>>>>>>>>>jounin neji which>>>gennin neji

your the one who is insane, you think acid mist would work against someone who will causally see the attack coming?? See neji when he knew deidara was charging up chakra and the fodder byakugan user( in the ambush arc who knew deidara put clay in the insect guy gourd)  he can air palm that little mist before it gets to him. 

again by feats offensively hiashi attack>>>>>anything mei has, it shifted juubi level 2 hand, the same juubi which flicked a bijuudama in its previous form. 

But then again its niku, 

Hiashi is high level jounin, same level as kakuzu and sasori who arent kage level by any means

Even the weakest kages to date, Mei and tsunade beat either of them. 

anyone who thinks kakuzu> Mei is comical


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Honestly, Sasori is a pussy.



Uh...no.

He was eager to kill Orochimaru himself and Kabuto was relieved that he had already been dealt with. Deidara deferred to him as a superior. Sakura could feel, through his bloodlust, the sheer difference in their experience and the "thousands of people he's killed." He took down a country by himself, defeated the strongest Kazekage _and assimilated his power_, and so rarely ever had to even leave Hiruko that Kabuto- his own subordinate for years -had never seen his true appearance.



> He got beat by a fossil and a freaking Chunnin. Not impressive at all.



Chiyo was scraping at the Kage-level wall herself; she and Sakura complimented each other's abilities perfectly and just so happened to have antidotes prepared before they went into battle against Sasori. Despite that, Chiyo admitted he STILL could've killed them both in the end if he hadn't hesitated to dodge her final blow.



> To make matters worse, Sakura hardly knew of his abilities and was still dodging his most intense assaults.



Sakura hardly dodged shit on her own and only managed to do so after she had gotten used to and analyzed Sasori's finger movements; prior to that, Chiyo was bailing her out of _everything_.



> He's low Kage level. Very low.



He's stronger than most Kage.



> If he knows enough about Sasoris poison abilities, he can win against him too.



Not even close; Sasori would babyshake the piss out of him with Satetsu a hundred times over before Hiashi would even get the privilege of being blenderized by the hundred puppets.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

Hiashi is not losing to Darui, the chances of Darui hitting that blind spot are one in a million; it took Kidomaru a long time while hiding himself the whole time from a longer distance to find that opening. I doubt someone like Hiashi is going to let that weakness be found. Darui also has not shown too many jutsu to say he can effectively keep his distance against Hiashi. The little but of what Hiashi has shown and considering what Neji is capable of put Hiashi above Darui because Darui has simply not shown the necessary tools.

As far as Sasori, Hiashi was able to push the Juubi's arm, he can easy destroy a large number if not all of Sasori's puppets in one go, follow his chakra strings, and his Rotation is extremely large. Sakura was handling her own against the puppets without knowledge of traps and with no battle experience, I think Hiashi whom can see the traps would fare far better. Chiyo also said that Sakura was reading Sasori's movements which is something Hiashi can do along with seeing through all of Sasori's tricks. The only way Sasori wins is if he gets a lucky shot at the blind spot which I dont see happening because Hiashi will be constantly moving.

Mei would be a good fight but Hiashi pushes her mists away and proceeds to engage her in CQC. While Mei does have fast hand seals and cool ninjutsu her jutsu arnt exactly the fastest and she has very little taijutsu showings. She simply isnt tagging Hiashi in a ninjutsu.

I view Hiashi as one of the strongest people in the Leaf along with Guy and Kakashi. It would be great to see more from him but he simply isnt a main char and it makes me cry. I can honestly see him defeating a number of Akatuki and all of the Kage except A and Gaara (depending on the circumstances). Hiashi would be a valuable member of any team or as a bodyguard.


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## Veracity (Aug 5, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Hmm, make it fair. Chiyo has perfect knowledge on how puppeteers fight, Sakura has brute strength to destroy puppets. They form a powerful combo which is a great counter to Sasori. Even so it is implied that Sasori is holding back in the battle.
> 
> Deidara admits that Sasori is stronger than him, 3rd Kazekage who is said to be the strongest Kazekage is defeated by Sasori.



Well Chiyo is pretty powerful and is good at applying intel into battle, but Sakura? No. At one point, she was dodging his fastest techniques by herself. She has absolutely no speed feats. If Sasori held back, he wouldn't have used his strongest Justu.

Itachi admitted that him and Kisame would lose to Jirayia. Your point is? 
The battle was off-panel, we have no idea what happened. Same way Tobirama beat Izuna(stated to be close to Madara's strength) and Hanzo soloed the Sannin.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Cant believe some think sasori is kage level, smh

what is he to do against hiashi when *SAKURA* could predict him once she got used to him. She has no insight, cant see chakra strings casually, doesnt have 359 field of vision. Doesnt have a 50m chakra barrier which tells hiashi exactly what attack is coming his way. Please if chiyo could control sakura and avoid sasori while ensuring sakura doesnt get hit. Hiashi walks up to sasori and slaps his canister. Its that simple 

Please hiashi>>>asuma. Asuma cant do squat to hiashi. Hien...gets trolled by hiashi who btw can cut through chakra so he simply stops the attack and with his sooo  much better taijutsu trolls asuma once asuma is close. Same goes for darui 

*@Niku kishi has shown several times that characters can react to people much much faster than themselves even if they cannot physically get out of the way. 

eg: satetsu shigure vs chiyo and sakura, chiyo put up a defense, however that attack gets from point A to B much much faster than chiyo ever can

juugo put up a defense against Ei, despite much much lower taijutsu ability than hiashi, and no ability to redirect Ei strike with just chakra. 

The list goes on and there are several examples of people still being able to react to someone much faster than themselves, even if they cannot physically move out of the way. 

eg: sasuke vs Ei, used enton to protect himself, despite Ei being >>>>>>>>>>faster than sasuke
*


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Hiashi can beat all of the Hokage except for maybe Hashirama. Hiashi's ultimate defense blocks all of their ninjutsu, his eyes see all, and his vacuum palm blows them all away. With sage mode durability and rapid regeneration, Hashirama's the only one that can take the severe beating Hiashi would no doubt give him.​


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 5, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Well Chiyo is pretty powerful and is good at applying intel into battle, but Sakura? No. At one point, she was dodging his fastest techniques by herself. She has absolutely no speed feats. If Sasori held back, he wouldn't have used his strongest Justu.
> 
> Itachi admitted that him and Kisame would lose to Jirayia. Your point is?
> The battle was off-panel, we have no idea what happened. Same way Tobirama beat Izuna(stated to be close to Madara's strength) and Hanzo soloed the Sannin.



Sakura may have bad speed, but he can read Sasori's finger to predict his attacks and evade it. She should have pretty good reflexes as a medical ninja. And Sakura doesn't dodge that largest AOE Iron sand attack but instead, she uses antidotes to counter Sasori's poison or she would die, sth which Sasori isn't aware of. At start when Sasori uses Iron sand to attack her, it was Chiyo who saves her with puppets and her chakra arm shield.

It it quite clear that 2 situations are different. Itachi doesn't want to fight any Konoha members if he can, or his "more assistance from Akatsuki else won't change the result" will be illogical to explain. While Deidara who is very arrogant and won't say weaker than anyone else, makes that statement. Considering what kind of person Deidara is, it is safe to tell that he actually fights and loses to him, he feels impressive to Sasori's power and admit weaker.

I thought that Izuna <= Madara statement is from Itachi's story, which isn't reliable anymore after so many plotholes are found, even Izuna himself admits that Madara is stronger than him. While the battle is off-paneled, it is very unlikely that the one who is hyped as the strongest Kazekage will be sneaked and defeated easily, Sasori should be pretty strong enough to win the battle.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Gai pawns sasori who is also on the same list as Ei,



Gai can't do anything to Sasori; he'll need to open the Gates just to break Hiruko apart. Then he has to account for Sasori's own monstrous durability (able to withstand the same punches from Sakura that shattered Hiruko) and the sheer volume of his arsenal (Satetsu, hundred-puppet army).



> also Mei can actually defeat sasori. I have no reason to believe otherwise, if she doesnt win she at least competes



This is awful. Mei's lava is the only Jutsu she has that can destroy Sasori's Hiruko or true form and there's no way she's landing a hit on the latter. She has no defense against Satetsu and one scratch from anything in Sasori's bag of tricks gets her fatally poisoned. The hundred puppets aren't even needed, which pretty well illustrates the enormous difference between these two.



> the fact that you say hiashi is weaker than part 1 kakashi means i cant take you seriously



Part 1 Kakashi is called the strongest Jounin in Konoha by the second databook, which shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone.

I also personally don't care what you take seriously because there is nothing serious about Hiashi beating Sasori, much less the Raikage.



> what can part 1 kakashi do against juubi second form massive hand coming his way, except die???
> 
> Juubi is several times larger than a bijuu and this was juubi second form which got blocked



Dodge it, probably. Why does that matter? Hiashi didn't do anything to the Juubi's tail except knock it back; Kakashi could do that with Suiryuudan or Daibakufu (provided he had a water source), but that's a very specific, circumstantial comparison. In terms of who would actually win in a fight, it's Kakashi, obviously.



> empty air palm messes up all of sasori attacks and puppets unless you can somehow show me how they are more durable than juubi hand.



Kuushou didn't do anything to the Juubi's hand; Neji's didn't even do anything to the Kisame Shouten at 30% of the original's power and he was shown to be comparable to Hiashi during the war arc.

So yeah, Hiashi can knock the puppets back. Problem is, Sasori can attack from literally a hundred different directions, while Hiashi only has two hands.



> Iron sand isnt reaching someone who can redirect an attack without moving by simply releasing chakra. ( see neji vs kidomaru) how do you think neji didnt die against that arrow, he redirected it. hiashi can do the same but much better since hiashi>>>>>>>>>>>jounin neji which>>>gennin neji



Satetsu is also much more powerful than Kidoumaru's arrows; it's a roughly 375-cubic-meter volume of iron that can be propelled at supersonic speeds in the shape of a giant needle that can shred bedrock. Good luck redirecting that.



> your the one who is insane, you think acid mist would work against someone who will causally see the attack coming?? he can air palm that little mist before it gets to him.



Kuushou is not a constant fanning motion; unless Hiashi can hit literally the entire cloud, some of it is going to wrap around and diffuse into the air Hiashi's breathing. Then his lungs are going to melt and he's going to die.



> again by feats offensively hiashi attack>>>>>anything mei has, it shifted juubi level 2 hand,



You are grossly overrating this attack based on a feat where it didn't actually do anything.



> the same juubi which flicked a bijuudama in its previous form.



Juubi flicked away Bijuudama with a finger on one of its arms, not its tail.



> But then again its niku,



This is just an ad hominem cop-out. You haven't done anything except bellyache and parrot the same crap about Hiashi knocking the Juubi's tail away- which, for all we know, is something any decent Jounin can do with their Ninjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Sakura may have bad speed, but he can read Sasori's finger to predict his attacks and evade it. She should have pretty good reflexes as a medical ninja. And Sakura has antidotes to counter Sasori's poison or she would die, sth which Sasori isn't aware of.
> 
> It it quite clear that 2 situations are different. Itachi doesn't want to fight any Konoha members if he can, or his "more assistance from Akatsuki else won't change the result" will be illogical to explain. While Chiyo makes that point after fighting Sasori and turned to nearly death status, she believes she could have been killed.
> 
> I thought that Izuna <= Madara statement is from Itachi's story, which isn't reliable anymore after so many plotholes are found, even Izuna himself admit that Madara is stronger than him. While the battle is off-paneled, it is very unlikely that the one who is hyped as the strongest Kazekage will be sneaked and defeated easily, Sasori himself should be pretty strong enough to win the battle.



agreed however, like you said yourself sakura read sasori fingers to predict his attacks. 
byakugan gives hiashi much greater insight than sakura and even more insight than the sharingan. Hiashi will see all attacks coming his way, a long time before they ever get there. 

Fact still remains sasori puppets dont stand a chance against his empty air palm which shifted the juubi level 2 hand, when the same juubi flicked a bijuudama away. Puppets are glass cannons, as shown by sakura who wasnt even going all out being able to break them with a punch.  *The same sakura holding back couldnt put a dent in zetsu with her punches, meanwhile neji releasing chakra burst the zetsu in half. Hiashi>>>>>>>>>neji*

Also hiashi evasive and taijutsu skills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sakura by a very very very large margin. 

No doubt sasori was meant to be strong, however he is portrayed as quite weak frankly speaking. 

I mean chiyo and sakura reacted to all versions of satetsu, therefore hiashi does as well with even more ease. Unless anyone who dares can tell me how his reflexes or evasive skills are less than chiyo's or sakuras


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## Axiom (Aug 5, 2013)

First off, anybody who thinks Kakuzu and Sasori aren't Kage level is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off the mark.  That's outright absurd.

Secondly, to Likes Boss, Sakura never dodged Sasori's fastest attack.  She could only barely dodge Senju Sobu (all those arm things) and then got caught in the poison cloud.

Afterwards, Sasori used Satetsu: Shigure, his fastest attack.  The first time he used it, Chiyo used the ma puppet to move Sakura out of the way while using the pa puppet to protect herself.  The second time Sasori used it, Chiyo used the pa puppet to protect Sakura while using her own chakra shield arm to protect herself.

After that, Sasori stopped using Satetsu: Shigure, which, by the way, was shown to break the sound barrier.

Sakura held her own against Satetsu: Kaihou, I'll give you that much, but that's not Sasori's fastest attack.  And, all that aside, without Chiyo and Sakura having knowledge and antidotes, Sasori would have stomped.  Hell, without knowledge, they die to Hiruko in all likelihood.  Which is saying a lot because Chiyo is very skilled in her own right.

Also, Asuma belongs in high/elite jonin tier, not just jonin.  Gaiden Arc Kakashi was a jonin.  The three people that Kakashi, Obito, and Minato killed from the rock village were jonin.  Hayate, Neji, Shizune, Aoba, they'll all jonin (I think Aoba is a jonin, anyway.)

Jonin level should be defined by people like Gaiden Kakashi, Neji, and the three shinobi from the rock (Mahiru, Kakko, and Taiseki), rather than Asuma and Darui, who are clearly very special for their class.  There are hundreds of Jonin in the Shinobi Alliance Army, yet Darui was picked as one of the five generals.  Asuma had a massive bounty on his head and was a member of those 12 guardian people.

So, Sasori and Kakuzu are Kage Level and Asuma and Darui are Elite Jonin.  Neji and Shizune would be Jonin level.  You wouldn't seriously place Neji and Shizune on the level of Asuma and Darui, would you?

WITH ALL THIS SAID, I'd say Hiashi is probably Elite Jonin.  I could see him standing up to Asuma and Darui, even though Darui is the general for the army and Hiashi isn't 

He's not Kage Level but he is still a pretty powerful foe


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Cant believe some think sasori is kage level, smh



>Beat a Kage.
>Beat a country.
>You're surprised people understand the very obvious reality that he's Kage-level.



> what is he to do against hiashi when *SAKURA* could predict him once she got used to him. She has no insight, cant see chakra strings casually, doesnt have 359 field of vision. Doesnt have a 50m chakra barrier which tells hiashi exactly what attack is coming his way. Please if chiyo could control sakura and avoid sasori while ensuring sakura doesnt get hit. Hiashi walks up to sasori and slaps his canister. Its that simple



Hiashi is doing no such thing.

Sakura's speed: 3
Chiyo's speed: 4
Hiashi's speed: 4
Sasori's speed: 4.5

Hiashi will be lucky if he ever lays a hand on Sasori. And by "lucky," I mean it's practically impossible.



> Please hiashi>>>asuma. Asuma cant do squat to hiashi. Hien...gets trolled by hiashi who btw can cut through chakra so he simply stops the attack and with his sooo  much better taijutsu trolls asuma once asuma is close. Same goes for darui



Darui and Asuma are both faster than Hiashi and possess ranged Ninjutsu to keep a comfy distance. Hiashi isn't beating either of them with anything short of extreme difficulty.



> *@Niku kishi has shown several times that characters can react to people much much faster than themselves even if they cannot physically get out of the way.
> 
> eg: satetsu shigure vs chiyo and sakura, chiyo put up a defense, however that attack gets from point A to B much much faster than chiyo ever can
> 
> ...



The difference is that Susano'o can actually stop A and Enton can actually hurt him; Kaiten can do neither and he will just reach through the chakra stream and crush Hiashi's face with his Iron Claw.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Cant believe some think sasori is kage level, smh




The number of people that can beat Sasori is limited, in this case Hiashi simply has everything in his favor; this doesnt make Sasori less of a powerhouse.


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## Meruem (Aug 5, 2013)

I'm not going to use the scale you provided because it seems sort of messed up.  So what I will say is that I believe Hiashi is on the same level as Darui.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Smh @Niku
 hiashi also has ranged ninjutsu to deal with darui, i like the way you forget that. difference is hiashi's stronger. Feat comparison. laser circus, did nothing to silver brothers except move him back a bit, air palm shifts the juubi tail. Juubi>>>> silver brothers who only have a fraction of kyuubi power. 
Again hiashi doesnt need kaiten. *read the neji vs kidomaru fight again the come argue* Neji a bloody gennin redirected an arrow movign much much quicker than anything he should be able to react to and much quicker than his foot speed. yet because he set up a 50m chakra barrier he was able to redirect it without rotating. I have no reason to believe, hiashi cant do the same to Ei fist, he only need move it a fraction from his face.
*Also unlike itachi who needs MS which tires him rapidly to not quickly die against Ei and to actually be able to harm Ei, hiashi only need tap Ei to mess him up. *

@ Anyone else, what ever level you put sasori at hiashi is at that level why?
What is sasori supposed to do to him? Chiyo!!! yes Chiyo reacted to his satetsu, common sense dictates that someone who can release a +50 m radius of chakra from his body in order to predict the trajectory of an attack will have no issues side stepping such.  Please note 50m was done by gennin neji with much less chakra than hiashi. Hiashi can casually put a 250m chakra radius around himself to redirect and predict any attack coming his way

so there you go. 

Please remember gai said Gates, which is a high speed combo is what he believes can defeat the juuken style. 
High speed movement and attacks are needed to defeat jukken style. Which means slow attacks like darui arent going to cut it.  

Sasori has no high speed attacks, * it isnt high speed if sakura can predict and dodge it. * Also you cannot call yourself kage level or above high jounin* if SM naruto can fodderise you*, like he would sasori and hiashi hence why i put hiashi at high jounin


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## Meruem (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Cant believe some think sasori is kage level, smh



Sasori has the potential to beat people much stronger than him if they make a mistake and without knowledge he's extremely difficult to counter.  Even with knowledge, it takes days of prep to make an antidote to his poison.  You also have to think about who even has the skillset to beat him, some people will just simply not be fast enough, others won't be able to figure out about his heart box, and others may not have enough AoE to deal with his hundreds of puppets at once.  Now let's look at more possibilities; if someone destroys Hiruko, there's a chance they'd think he was really dead and be killed, there's a chance that someone will let something scratch them thinking that their durability matters and get one shot, there's also a chance that when they finally think that Sasori is dead he heart swaps and kills them from behind.

He isn't on a level with some of the Kages but you have to take into account all of them if you want to make an accurate "Kage Level".  I actually think the idea of using it as a level at all is sort of weird because they range from Gaara's dad to Hashirama which is an absolutely huge difference in power.



Icegaze said:


> Sasori has no high speed attacks, * it isnt high speed if sakura can predict and dodge it. * Also you cannot call yourself kage level or above high jounin* if SM naruto can fodderise you*, like he would sasori and hiashi hence why i put hiashi at high jounin



She was actually scratched by it so she couldn't dodge it.  Also she had to get chakra strings from Chiyo to avoid it once she had no antidote.  Chiyo (who is faster than Sakura according to DB) also had to use shields to block satetsu because she couldn't dodge it.  At the end of the fight, Sasori let them win.  The fight isn't an accurate representation of his power because they had a ton of prep (and the fact that they were perfectly suited to use that prep thanks to Sakura being a medic), they actually would be dead if Sasori had wanted them to be, and they had more knowledge on him than almost anyone else in the manga would've.

Sorry if this post reads awkwardly, I just woke up.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Smh @Niku
> Wont bother with you.



Concession accepted. 



> @ Anyone else, what ever level you put sasori at hiashi is at that level why?
> What is sasori supposed to do to him? Chiyo!!! yes Chiyo reacted to his satetsu, common sense dictates that someone who can release a +50 m radius of chakra from his body in order to predict the trajectory of an attack will have no issues side stepping such.  Please note 50m was done by gennin neji with much less chakra than hiashi. Hiashi can casually put a 250m chakra radius around himself to redirect and predict any attack coming his way
> 
> so there you go.



You're so desperate about this, I actually feel somewhat sorry I called you out on it publicly; I didn't think you were this invested in it.

1) Straighten out your priorities in life. Let it go. It's not a big deal.
2) Neither Neji nor Hiashi can generate anything close to a 50m-radius Kaiten.
3) Sasori stomps.



> Please remember gai said Gates, which is a high speed combo is what he believes can defeat the juuken style.
> High speed movement and attacks are needed to defeat jukken style. Which means slow attacks like darui arent going to cut it.



So everyone slower than Gated Gai can't beat Hiashi?

Well...

Madara and Hashirama will be disappointed to hear that.



> Sasori has no high speed attacks, * it isnt high speed if sakura can predict and dodge it. *



Sakura couldn't dodge Satetsu at all. Even Chiyo had to fall back on using her chakra shields to block it because she admitted there was no dodging the lance form.



> Also you cannot call yourself kage level or above high jounin* if SM naruto can fodderise you*, like he would sasori and hiashi hence why i put hiashi at high jounin



SM Naruto would beat Sasori with nothing short of high difficulty.


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> agreed however, like you said yourself sakura read sasori fingers to predict his attacks.
> byakugan gives hiashi much greater insight than sakura and even more insight than the sharingan. Hiashi will see all attacks coming his way, a long time before they ever get there.



Medical ninja as Sakura is trained under Tsunade to learn this skill which very few Shinobi can do well. It is not that easy to read fingers and predict attacks that accurately without training, Byakugan gives him greater sight but I doubt he will be so capable of such ability as Sakura, especially when Hiashi has great enough defense to counter most attacks.

Considering he does, his speed must follow it. Sakura fails to evade first 2 Iron sand Jutsu from Sasori, then she fails to dodge the largest _Iron Sand: Needle Sphere_. Sasori's attack is dense and quite fast, Hiashi doesn't have such skills to dodge them all. 1 scratch means death without antidotes.



Icegaze said:


> Fact still remains sasori puppets dont stand a chance against his empty air palm which shifted the juubi level 2 hand, when the same juubi flicked a bijuudama away. Puppets are glass cannons, as shown by sakura who wasnt even going all out being able to break them with a punch.
> 
> Also hiashi evasive and taijutsu skills>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sakura by a very very very large margin.
> 
> ...



Those puppets won't all be destroyed at once. There are over hundred puppets Hiashi must deal with at the same time, 1 scratch again means death to him. Surely, Air plams are one of the worst nightmare for puppets, but Sasori isn't that stupid to let all puppets be destroyed by 1 air plam if he knows how Hiashi fights. And there will always be time intervals after Air Plams and Rotation, when Sasori can make attacks continuously.

Sakura as a medical ninja is supposed to be having great observing and evasive skills, Hiashi should not be better than, how Hiashi fights is entirely different from Sakura. Chiyo has excellent skills and experience, she is both a medical ninja and puppeteer, if anything else she is better than Sakura no matter in Taijutsu, speed or evasive skills.


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## Axiom (Aug 5, 2013)

That you refuse to listen to Niku is a pretty clear cut sign that reason isn't going to work with you, but I figure I'll throw out a few speed feats just to disprove your Sakura can react to Sasori BS

As soon as 3KK came out, Sasori had it blitz Sakura.  She was dead to rights, too, except Chiyo pulled over Hiruko's tail and blocked it.  So a simple blitz from 3KK was too much for Sakura to handle and would have killed her right off the bat without Chiyo supporting her.  But, that's not nearly Sasori's most important attacking speed feat.

Sasori's last use of Satetsu Shigure actually broke the sound barrier.  In other words, it was pretty fucking fast.  Chiyo had time to put up her chakra shields, so Hiashi could block it for a little while, but it's simply too fast an attack for most ninja.  Hiashi, with his 4 in speed in the DB, could never dodge it, and would certainly fall to some Satetsu variant eventually.

So yeah, Sasori's attack speed is nothing to scoff at, and his fastest attacks are far beyond Sakura's reaction speed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Meruem said:


> Sasori has the potential to beat people much stronger than him if they make a mistake and without knowledge he's extremely difficult to counter.  Even with knowledge, it takes days of prep to make an antidote to his poison.  You also have to think about who even has the skillset to beat him, some people will just simply not be fast enough, others won't be able to figure out about his heart box, and others may not have enough AoE to deal with his hundreds of puppets at once.  Now let's look at more possibilities; if someone destroys Hiruko, there's a chance they'd think he was really dead and be killed, there's a chance that someone will let something scratch them thinking that their durability matters and get one shot, there's also a chance that when they finally think that Sasori is dead he heart swaps and kills them from behind.
> 
> He isn't on a level with some of the Kages but you have to take into account all of them if you want to make an accurate "Kage Level".  I actually think the idea of using it as a level at all is sort of weird because they range from Gaara's dad to Hashirama which is an absolutely huge difference in power.



name one person much stronger than him that he can beat when they have no knowledge. 
I can think of more than  a few which no knowledge doesnt alter their ability to slaughter him in the slightest. *Niku would like this one: Itachi kills sasori with or without knowledge with little effort*
worst is this is true. Hiruko form offers nothing at all in terms of offence, again if chiyo can avoid *all his needles while controlling sakura to do the same. No reason to believe any run of the mil jounin cant avoid such, so itachi walks unharmed here *

the rest is obvious, chiyo reacts to satetsu, itachi can causally react to it and slaughter sasori. Poison gas is sasori best asset here, which shouldnt work on itachi. thanks to how he fights, and which wont work on hiashi thanks to x-ray vision. 

100 puppets vs susanoo, susanoo trolls them and seals sasori 

Going back to the thread, i think people overhype sasori. 

*he lost to a restricted sakura and chiyo. That should tell you he isnt that strong. No kage level should loose to those 2, regardless of the situation. *


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 5, 2013)

> Deidara and Kakuzu wash their balls with the elite Jounin tier.




Deidara and Kakuzu were bested by Hebi Sasuke and FRS Naruto who were barely Kage Level themselves They can't beat any Kage in the manga nor could they compete with Kakashi, Gai or Sasori they are a notch below that level 

They wouldn't wipe the floor with people like Dan, Darui, Chiyo, Chouji, Kankuro ect




> Konan was never stronger than Itachi at any point in the manga; assumptions based on perceived rank are not proper justification for such a belief.



Well it would make sense to think the second strongest in the entire Atakuski at that time could possibly be stronger than Itachi, just like most would expect the Kage to be the strngest character in said village








> No, it was pretty much ridiculous from the moment base Jiraiya spitballed her in two seconds flat.



That would be like saying , people thought Orochimaru would be much weaker than Gaara once he was one shot by Itachi, there's things called matchups, Jiriyia knew her inside out and had the oil based jutsu to counter, we haven't really seen her fight all out except for against Obito who she gave a run for his money.



> Deidara could win with C1 let alone any of his higher-grade chakras.
> 
> The moment he starts whipping out C2, Darui is facing death by one-shot.



Deidara would have to get that far, Darui has shown to be the more intelligent fighter, he'll hit him with black lightining and put an end to that.


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## -JT- (Aug 5, 2013)

High Jonin level I'd say, going by your options. (I'd also put Asuma higher up too, but meh, that's a discussion for another time)

As for your matchups:

1) Hiashi vs Darui- I'd say Hiashi's perfect defence allows him to deal with Darui's stronger, ranged techniques. We know that Rotation is durable now as it fairly easily pushed Juubi back. If it enters CQC, Darui is pulverised.

2) Sasori vs Hiashi- Hiashi can potentially win this, as Rotation and Air Palms easily swat away projectiles and puppets. Hiashi's Gentle Fist also allows him to slice through chakra strings with ease. A Wind Palm Wall was able to blast Juubi back, so it should be able to smash through Sasori's initial form too. I haven't read the Sasori battle in ages though, so there maybe something I've forgotten about.

3) Hiashi vs Mei- again, Hiashi has some tools to deal with Mei, but I can't really see him taking down a Kage. Byakugan and Air Palm handily negates Hidden Mist, and Rotation can protect him from large Water Dragons and Lava attacks. He will eventually fight Mei close up however, which is dangerous as she can surround herself in acid, something Hiashi doesn't really have an answer for. Yes, he can blow it away, but Mei can throw up a lot, and it burnt through Susanoo quickly.


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## Axiom (Aug 5, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara and Kakuzu were bested by Hebi Sasuke and FRS Naruto who were barely Kage Level themselves They can't beat any Kage in the manga nor could they compete with Kakashi, Gai or Sasori they are a notch below that level



Deidara couldn't beat any Kage in the manga?  Really?

I could have sworn he had already defeated one, with a terrain disadvantage, and without the use of his most powerful non-suicidal technique, and without killing intent, but if he couldn't beat any Kage in the manga then I must be wrong here?  Could you elaborate as to how somebody who can't beat any Kage in the manga already beat a Kage in the manga?


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Smh @Niku



I guess you changed your mind. 



> hiashi also has ranged ninjutsu to deal with darui, i like the way you forget that. difference is hiashi's stronger. Feat comparison. laser circus, did nothing to silver brothers except move him back a bit, air palm shifts the juubi tail. Juubi>>>> silver brothers who only have a fraction of kyuubi power.



Laser Circus ripped open Kinkaku's back (Or was it Ginkaku's? I don't remember; same difference). Kuushou doesn't inflict any damage unless the target happens to land on a pile of rusty nails or broken glass or fall into an active volcano.



> Again hiashi doesnt need kaiten. *read the neji vs kidomaru fight again the come argue* Neji a bloody gennin redirected an arrow movign much much quicker than anything he should be able to react to and much quicker than his foot speed. yet because he set up a 50m chakra barrier he was able to redirect it without rotating.



We're not talking about 50m+ distances, here; at that range, a normal human could sidestep a Ferrari at top-speed (provided the driver didn't react and deviate from the initial path). The more distance there is, the more time there is to react to any body traveling at a constant velocity.

The thing is, Hiashi's not even as fast as Darui or Asuma, so good luck dodging their attacks at like...5m.



> I have no reason to believe, hiashi cant do the same to Ei fist, he only need move it a fraction from his face.



Except A is way, way too damn fast and strong for that. Assuming Hiashi even reacts to him, which is not going to happen if A is using Shunshin, a piddly Kaiten isn't stopping physical attacks that can amputate the Hachibi Bijuu.



> *Also unlike itachi who needs MS which tires him rapidly to not quickly die against Ei and to actually be able to harm Ei, hiashi only need tap Ei to mess him up. *



Kidoumaru's web armor blocked Jyuuken so I don't see why the Raikage's Raiton armor wouldn't do the same.

And there is still the matter of the Raikage being too fast for the Sharingan to track at his top speed, which is something Hiashi can't deal with at all.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Concession accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



perhaps you should inform yourself on the byakugan. I never mentioned a 50m kaiten. why does everyone think thats the only way a bykugan user can defend himself. Read the neji vs kidomaru fight again. You obviously have the time so do so before talking nonesense. 

*NEJI CLEARLY SHOWED A 50M CHAKRA RADIUS WHICH ALLOWED HIM TO DEAL WITH kidomaru attacks. He redirected the arrow not with kaiten but with his chakra. He saw the arrow coming because of his 50m chakra sensing barrier. *

the last bit of your post had me laughing for a while. 

naruto starts with FRS, sasori dies in hiruko. The end. that seemed easy to me. 
Why should naruto not start with FRS?? oh yh cuz its convenient to your point. i see 

* kidomaru gold skin blocks chakra from flowing through. Ei armor does not and hasnt been shown to. chidori did pierce him. if it stopped chakra from flowing through chidori wont have*

rock lee is also much faster than neji in base, yet he himself admitted he learnt gates to defeat neji. So you have to be much faster than a byakugan user to think you can beat them. Otherwise base rock lee should be trolling neji everyday. The speed difference between darui and hiashi is sooo much less than the speed difference between base lee and neji

ps: i never said anyone slower than gated gai cant beat hiashi. However attacks which arent top tier speed dont have much of a chance of hitting hiashi. laser circuit never went through any of the silver bros body, it simply knocked him down thats about it. *Exaggeration to make a point is a desperate move  indeed. *

hashirama and madara attacks dont need to be high speed based on the sheer AoE and range, where is hiashi going to go?? he cant stand his ground and block because their attacks will overpower his defense. 

*however,darui, sasori and mei dont have that advantage. Satetsu was blocked by a mere chakra shield, kaiten or even air palm should block satetsu with ease. 
*
darui neither has AoE or fast attacks to tag hiashi. laser circus is fun and games but air palm slaps them back to where they came from. air palm used by neji did after all block juubi wood attacks.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

Axiom said:


> As soon as 3KK came out, Sasori had it blitz Sakura.  She was dead to rights, too, except Chiyo pulled over Hiruko's tail and blocked it.  So a simple blitz from 3KK was too much for Sakura to handle and would have killed her right off the bat without Chiyo supporting her.  But, that's not nearly Sasori's most important attacking speed feat.


To be fair Sakura was standing right infront of the puppet when he lauched it and your link shows Sakura in mid air as she was being pulled by Chiyo.



Eliyua23 said:


> *Deidara and Kakuzu were bested by Hebi Sasuke and FRS Naruto* who were barely Kage Level themselves They can't beat any Kage in the manga nor could they compete with Kakashi, Gai or Sasori they are a notch below that level
> 
> They wouldn't wipe the floor with people like Dan, Darui, Chiyo, Chouji, Kankuro ect



"That would be like saying , people thought Orochimaru would be much weaker than Gaara once he was one shot by Itachi, there's things called matchups" 

Sasuke had every advantage against Deidara and barely won we both know Kakuzu got trolled and only lost because of clones which not many people can take advantage of.


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## Axiom (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> To be fair Sakura was standing right infront of the puppet when he lauched it and your link shows Sakura in mid air as she was being pulled by Chiyo.



Yes but Chiyo was the one who saved Sakura from Hiruko's cluster bomb.  The puppet strings were a help, not a hindrance.

And that aside, there's an entire panel dedicated to Chiyo thinking FAST!  The message there is pretty clear eye em oh


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## Shinryu (Aug 5, 2013)

Kage level since has the raw force to knock back the Juubi's palm even without kyuubi chakra.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara and Kakuzu were bested by Hebi Sasuke and FRS Naruto who were barely Kage Level themselves They can't beat any Kage in the manga nor could they compete with Kakashi, Gai or Sasori they are a notch below that level



Sasuke was a lot stronger than three-tailed Naruto even before he gained Hebi powers. He, Deidara, and Gai are roughly the same level, with Gai probably edging them both out thanks to the 7th Gate/Hirudora.

Kakashi (before mastering Kamui) was well below that level and on par with FRS Naruto. Kakuzu was stronger than both of them separately. With mastery of Kamui, there's a much stronger case for putting him above the likes of Deidara and Hebi Sasuke, but literally only because of that Jutsu.



> They wouldn't wipe the floor with people like Dan, Darui, Chiyo, Chouji, Kankuro ect



Chouji is Kage-level; those other shinobi all get owned hard without backup.



> Well it would make sense to think the second strongest in the entire Atakuski at that time could possibly be stronger than Itachi, just like most would expect the Kage to be the strngest character in said village



Except no one ever said Konan was the second-strongest; the fact that she was Pain's arm-candy doesn't hype her abilities at all. Especially during the Pain Invasion where she did jack-shit except rape fodder and get stalemated by the Aburame clan.



> That would be like saying , people thought Orochimaru would be much weaker than Gaara once he was one shot by Itachi, there's things called matchups, Jiriyia knew her inside out and had the oil based jutsu to counter, we haven't really seen her fight all out except for against Obito who she gave a run for his money.



Gaara would lose even easier than Orochimaru if he went into battle with the same carelessness and made eye-contact with Itachi.

The fact that Jiraiya happened to have the perfect counter for her is immaterial, as we are still left with a clear illustration that someone of his level has the necessary speed and skill to land a ranged attack on her that she has no way to block. There are plenty of Jutsu that are more dangerous to get hit with than oil.



> Deidara would have to get that far, Darui has shown to be the more intelligent fighter, he'll hit him with black lightining and put an end to that.



Assuming Deidara doesn't just clone feint it like he did to everything else when Team Kakashi and Team Gai went after him.

Darui will be lucky if Deidara doesn't just use a Jibaku Bunshin on him from the get-go. Good luck surviving that without Kamui.


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## Meruem (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> name one person much stronger than him that he can beat when they have no knowledge.
> I can think of more than  a few which no knowledge doesnt alter their ability to slaughter him in the slightest. *Niku would like this one: Itachi kills sasori with or without knowledge with little effort*
> worst is this is true. Hiruko form offers nothing at all in terms of offence, again if chiyo can avoid *all his needles while controlling sakura to do the same. No reason to believe any run of the mil jounin cant avoid such, so itachi walks unharmed here *
> 
> ...



Ei is a bit stronger than Sasori but his personality is such that there is a seriously possibility of him getting poisoned.  A lot of others can too though some of them are less likely than others, I'm not saying that he is beating these people every time, just that the fact that he can should raise his level a bit because even when faced with a more powerful enemy, he has a shot at winning.

People with dojutsu have an advantage of being able to see his heart container so Itachi is a special case.  But even Itachi has a small chance of being poisoned with Satetsu Kaiho.  Hiruko can be very useful because if they destroy it they'll think he is defeated and he can use that to his advantage.  Blind Itachi would have an even larger chance of losing because if he pulls something like he did against Sasuke when he couldn't fully dodge and gets scratched, he's dead.  That being said, Itachi should win more often than not.

Chiyo couldn't dodge it, she had to use shields.  Itachi can react to it but blind Itachi might not always be able to in time.  Sasori's best asset is almost always Satetsu.  It is still his best asset here.  Satetsu Kaiho is very difficult to dodge and has massive AoE. 

Susano'o is one of the most powerful abilities in the manga.  It beats Sasori's puppets for sure.  

Sakura and Chiyo restricted?  What are you even talking about?  They had days and days of prep, more knowledge than almost anyone else in the manga would have, a perfect skillset to counter him, a perfect skillset to make use of the prep, and on top of all that Sasori let them win at the end.

You failed to address the majority of my post and pretty much just talked about a completely irrelevant matchup between Sasori and someone who is obviously far above him.  Just because a ninja 2 tiers ahead of Sasori can beat him doesn't mean he isn't Kage level.  Why don't you go ahead and actually address my post?


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> perhaps you should inform yourself on the byakugan. I never mentioned a 50m kaiten. why does everyone think thats the only way a bykugan user can defend himself. Read the neji vs kidomaru fight again. You obviously have the time so do so before talking nonesense.



I misunderstood you, that's all.

It's hard to know when you're speaking from fact versus when you're speaking from insanity when talking about Hiashi's chances against mid-level Kage tier opponents. 



> *NEJI CLEARLY SHOWED A 50M CHAKRA RADIUS WHICH ALLOWED HIM TO DEAL WITH kidomaru attacks. He redirected the arrow not with kaiten but with his chakra. He saw the arrow coming because of his 50m chakra sensing barrier. *



You do know that Kaiten is just a projection of chakra from the body with spin added, right? It's fundamentally the same thing...

That said, it's dubious enough to claim Hiashi has the power to deflect something like Satetsu with such a simple trick; it's flat-out nonsense to claim that he can do it indefinitely and still manage to land a debilitating strike on a faster opponent with better ranged offense.



> the last bit of your post had me laughing for a while.



The irony is staggering.



> naruto starts with FRS, sasori dies in hiruko. The end. that seemed easy to me.
> Why should naruto not start with FRS?? oh yh cuz its convenient to your point. i see



Naruto uses FRS, Hiruko takes the brunt of the attack, Sasori survives with little or no damage.

Naruto is now down to a couple more shots of FRS before his Sage Mode runs out and he's gotta deal with a Kazekage and an army before he can get to Sasori.

Not a cost-effective way to approach that fight.


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I misunderstood you, that's all.
> 
> It's hard to know when you're speaking from fact versus when you're speaking from insanity when talking about Hiashi's chances against mid-level Kage tier opponents.
> 
> ...



please i beg of everyone before posting further can you please look at what niku wrote in the last 4 lines of this post. 
Hiruko takes the brunt of FRS???   . The same attack that killed kakuzu pretty much 3 times, the same attack which vaporized human path?  human path who has tanked SM jiriaya punch and kick?? meanwhile hiruko broke into pieces against sakura. 
And you dare say sasori survives the attack with little to no damage!!!...common Niku why are you doing this??? FRS offensively is well above any defense sasori has 

*SAKURA WAS RESTRICTED!!* she hadnt released her seal and was storing chakra, this is a known fact

*satetsu was blocked by chiyo chakra shield, 3 times right, you know this right?? Without a dent on the shield i might add. *so why kaiten or simply deflecting it the same way hinata and neji were deflecting juubi wood techniques wont work is simply you spouting BS. Unless you can somehow prove that chiyo shield>>kaiten, or simply redirecting the attack with air palm, or simply using chakra  your point on that issue is moot. 

The larger versions of satetsu once again were avoided by sakura, sakura, sakura. Wrote the name 3 times so it can sink in. Sakura was also punching them back and had those silly iron blocks flying back at sasori. Why cant hiashi air palm them back to sasori??  is hiashi air palm sooo far beneath restricted sakura strength that he cannot send those flying back?? i think not. 

once again FRS levels sasori anytime it is used. Can someone please pitch in on this last point. Please i cant be the only one who thinks FRS vaporizes sasori

*Edit: I dont want to create a thread on this but can you all pitch in

what do you think happens if naruto throws an FRS at sasori while sasori is in hiruko. 

1) hiruko takes the brunt of it and sasori casually walks out of it
2) sasori is damaged but alive
3) sasori is turned to dust. *

I dont want to be the only one telling Niku he is so very wrong on this.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 5, 2013)

Kakuzu a high Jonin 

what is the BD coming to


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Kakuzu a high Jonin
> 
> what is the BD coming to



do you honestly put him at kage level??  
if you cant beat mei and tsunade, who are actually only there because of their title then you cant be kage level. 
I dont believe kakuzu can beat Mei 
hence why i put him as high jonin. Every other kage should quite frankly murder kakuzu
Ei vs kakuz= 1 sided match, gaara vs kakuzu- gaara wins for sure, onoki vs kakuzu=no kakuzu in 3 seconds. Kakuzu cannot be called kage level if he cannot even stand up to the gokage. The 2 weakest probably beat him and the others stomp him. 

But anywayz based on my scale which no one seems to like where would you put hiashi
Ps: i dont believe hiashi gets stomped by kakuzu.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 5, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> do you honestly put him at kage level??
> if you cant beat mei and tsunade, who are actually only there because of their title then you cant be kage level.



Hidan is a Jonin, Zabuzuz is a Jonin... hell every one of the swordmen barring Kisame and possibly Mangetsu is Jonin level..

So yes Mei & Tsunade would VERY much be Kage level, the former Kakuzu would treat like a play thing an the latter who he is more than capable of giving a VERY good running for money



Icegaze said:


> I dont believe kakuzu can beat Mei
> hence why i put him as high jonin. Every other kage should quite frankly murder kakuzu



Kakuzu would obliterate Mei, her mist is getting shredded by his _Fūton: Atsugai_ and then she is going to be obliterated via _Raiton: Gia_ & _Katon: Zukokku_ from multiple angles



Icegaze said:


> Ei vs kakuz= 1 sided match, gaara vs kakuzu- gaara wins for sure, onoki vs kakuzu=no kakuzu in 3 seconds. Kakuzu cannot be called kage level if he cannot even stand up to the gokage. The 2 weakest probably beat him and the others stomp him.



Gaara would loose without locational advantage. Ei is simply a VERY bad matchup and Onoki is simply above him.

So only 2 of the Kages can beat him consistently. Mei is steamrolled while Gaara & Tsunade are toss ups



Icegaze said:


> But anywayz based on my scale which no one seems to like where would you put hiashi
> Ps: i dont believe hiashi gets stomped by kakuzu.



He doesn't get stomped but its quite even


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

Meruem said:


> Sasori has the potential to beat people much stronger than him if they make a mistake and without knowledge he's extremely difficult to counter.  Even with knowledge, it takes days of prep to make an antidote to his poison.  You also have to think about who even has the skillset to beat him, some people will just simply not be fast enough, others won't be able to figure out about his heart box, and others may not have enough AoE to deal with his hundreds of puppets at once.  Now let's look at more possibilities; if someone destroys Hiruko, there's a chance they'd think he was really dead and be killed, there's a chance that someone will let something scratch them thinking that their durability matters and get one shot, there's also a chance that when they finally think that Sasori is dead he heart swaps and kills them from behind.
> 
> He isn't on a level with some of the Kages but you have to take into account all of them if you want to make an accurate "Kage Level".  I actually think the idea of using it as a level at all is sort of weird because they range from Gaara's dad to Hashirama which is an absolutely huge difference in power.
> 
> ...



this is the post you wanted me to reply to i hope. What particularly should i reply to?
all i can say is chiyo controlled sakura and both were able to dodge sasori initially assault which leads me to believe, hiashi, in fact even neji should have no issues avoiding such an attack. 

Good thing hiashi has a long ranged attack to break hiruko, so he wont be coming close anytime soon. My point is, i wont call hiashi kage level however seeing how much problems he can give sasori whose best or second best attack is satetsu which was blocked by chiyo charkra shield  , sasori cannot be called kage level either. Since i am pretty sure gaara handles hiashi with alot more ease than sasori would. The only reason i believe Ei might loose to hiashi has been explained. 

EDIT : To clarify when i say kage level the gokage are my reference point. Obviously hashirama and minato arent kage level ( if the gokage is used as a reference) 

your post didnt read awkward dw, hope i responded appropriately enough. 

any thoughts to FRS vs hiruko...Niku brought up a point which shocks me. hence my  question

*EDIT 2: it is true that sakura got scratched by sasori best satetsu technique mind you, however like you said scratched!!..now someone who has better reactions and reflexes thanks to the byakugan should be able to walk out of that attack unharmed. chiyo did!! Sakura did after all only get scratched. Sasori let them win at the end, that doesnt mean he wasnt trying to kill them for the vast majority of the fight. My major and sole point is that sakura was able to avoid his attacks on her own, it is ridiculous to think hiashi cant do the same.  *

so for all intents and purposes hiashi should beat sasori, not necessarily because he is at a higher level but because his skill set is very good against sasori. People need to remember this as well. Hiashi isnt a beast but his skill set is very effective against alot of people. To me once gai needs gates to defeat you, which he would against hiashi ,you are above jounin level/asuma level.

*Please remember rock lee needed learn how to use the gates to defeat neji. Neji was a genin, so was rock lee however rock lee in base easily has footspeed on par with darui and asuma. Yet that same guy needed to up his strength and speed to compete with genin neji who is so so so much weaker than hiashi*

reference to my point: 
Sasori had it blitz Sakura.

That was to defeat genin neji. Just saying its going to take alot more to defeat hiashi the clan leader. People disregard part 1 feats alot but that version of rock lee is still by no means slow even to date. Asuma, darui, hidan etc simply cant move at such speeds or do much against such speeds.

@Niku
Sasori had it blitz Sakura.
that is what i was referring to. That should and can redirect Ei punch or satetsu if used by hiashi who would be much better at it. Also unless Ei uses max speed he can get countered by hiashi quite easily. Jugo did after all put up a defense, which means he physically moved his hand to block. No reason to believe hiashi can pull the same thing off. 

this was done by a genin, please look at how close the projectile was to neji. 
Sasori had it blitz Sakura.
yet he avoided it. By emitting chakra to alter its momentum. 

neji running low on chakra was able to survive kidomaru final assault by again deflecting it with just chakra. 
Sasori had it blitz Sakura.

lastly look at the top left panel 
Sasori had it blitz Sakura.

hiashi can concetrate his chakra if its a straight forward attack and deflect even if just abit to catch Ei off guard and hit him square in the chest, which would kill Ei.

Byakugan doesnt have flashy techniques but it shouldnt be underestimated.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I mean, I have seen some stupid shit in the NBD in my time, but this tops Konan beating Itachi and Darui beating Deidara _combined_.


Lol the funny thing is konan can beat Itachi with the right prep and Deidara was defeated with help from Sasori by 3 Shinobi inferior to Darui.



> Inb4 Turrin tries to wall me.


I don't have to wall you because the manga proves my case for me. 



> Turrin, you're wrong. Hiashi is fodder.


If you think the strongest Hyuuga, who deflected a Juubi attack and can see half way across a country with his Byakugan is fodder with zero argument to support it, than that's your own problem.


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## ueharakk (Aug 5, 2013)

bottom of the barrel kage level.  Around Post TS Base Sasuke level.



Nikushimi said:


> Naruto uses FRS, Hiruko takes the brunt of the attack, Sasori survives with little or no damage.



  

No one who is trying to look at the manga with even a shred of honesty would argue that a puppet *that can't survive one of post timeskip sakura's punches* is going to protect sasori from the brunt of a SENNIN MODE FRS, the *same attack that damaged Kurama* *more than 25 Chou oodama rasengans* (mountain hollowers) the same attack that *enveloped half the chibaku tensei crater in its explosion.*


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## Icegaze (Aug 5, 2013)

^^ I strongly disagree 
post time skip base sasuke gets air palmed and dies
His speed isn't so great as to blitz hiashi and none of his base attacks would land 
I do consider him high Jounin so around kakuzu level


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Hiashi is not losing to Darui, the chances of Darui hitting that blind spot are one in a million; it took Kidomaru a long time while hiding himself the whole time from a longer distance to find that opening. I doubt someone like Hiashi is going to let that weakness be found. Darui also has not shown too many jutsu to say he can effectively keep his distance against Hiashi. The little but of what Hiashi has shown and considering what Neji is capable of put Hiashi above Darui because Darui has simply not shown the necessary tools.
> 
> As far as Sasori, Hiashi was able to push the Juubi's arm, he can easy destroy a large number if not all of Sasori's puppets in one go, follow his chakra strings, and his Rotation is extremely large. Sakura was handling her own against the puppets without knowledge of traps and with no battle experience, I think Hiashi whom can see the traps would fare far better. Chiyo also said that Sakura was reading Sasori's movements which is something Hiashi can do along with seeing through all of Sasori's tricks. The only way Sasori wins is if he gets a lucky shot at the blind spot which I dont see happening because Hiashi will be constantly moving.
> 
> ...



Hiashi defeating Onoki? In what world?


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 5, 2013)

_Narurto _has no concretely tiered or strictly standalone  powerlevels.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Hiashi defeating Onoki? In what world?



Onoki has no means of harming Hiashi because his abilities will be read and dodged and if he were to do anything extreme Hiashi will simply throw him around with Empty Palm. Onoki has already been shown as fragile with his back giving out multiple times so any amount of damage is significant while the databook says Empty Palm can put an opponent out. Flight is not as significant here and depending on the location Hiashi may well be able to hide or knock him out of the air. Given the location here is the Kage summit he can run along the walls of the large building and perhaps land a blow anyway.

You keep quoting me without saying anything substantial, unless you are going to refute something  dont expect me to respond next time.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Onoki has no means of harming Hiashi because his abilities will be read and dodged and if he were to do anything extreme Hiashi will simply throw him around with Empty Palm. Onoki has already been shown as fragile with his back giving out multiple times so any amount of damage is significant while the databook says Empty Palm can put an opponent out. Flight is not as significant here and depending on the location Hiashi may well be able to hide or knock him out of the air. Given the location here is the Kage summit he can run along the walls of the large building and perhaps land a blow anyway.
> 
> You keep quoting me without saying anything substantial, unless you are going to refute something  dont expect me to respond next time.



So your argument is based off speculation and not what he can realistically do? Hardly a good argument. Facts are that Hiashi has nothing capable of reaching Onoki while he's flying while Onoki has his jinton, which has extensive range with his laser like one (*enveloped half the chibaku tensei crater in its explosion.*) and immense AoE with his larger jinton (Link removed). Good luck dodging that. 

Onoki fragile? You do realize the guy tanked a meteor and still managed to get up, right?  He's anything but fragile. His back issues are purely for comedic purposes. 

And I don't bother arguing with you because it's pointless. I could've easily picked apart your argument in the other thread, but arguing against such stupidity is just pointless. I don't even know why I bothered here.


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## Mithos (Aug 5, 2013)

He's high jounin level at best. 

But Sasori and Kakuzu are both Kage level, not high jounin. 

Hiashi vs Darui - I'm leaning towards Hiashi. He can deflect black lightning with Rotation and he will out-do Darui in CQC with his master taijutsu skill and Jyuuken.

Hiashi vs Sasori - Hiashi loses for sure. Sasori is on another level. Hiashi cannot avoid being scratched by Iron Sand forever. Hiashi will never get close enough to take Sasori out in CQC, so he falls to poison or being impaled.

Hiashi vs Mei - Mei destroys him. He can't defend against giant waves of water and globs of lava forever. Air Palm is easily dodged or blocked by a water wall. If Hiashi approaches, Mei counters with Acid Mist and he can't get anywhere near her.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> So your argument is based off speculation and not what he can realistically do? Hardly a good argument. Facts are that Hiashi has nothing capable of reaching Onoki while he's flying while Onoki has his jinton, which has extensive range with his laser like one (Link removed) and immense AoE with his larger jinton (Link removed). Good luck dodging that.


Nothing in my post was speculation, it was all facts. As I said nothing is stopping Hiashi from throwing Onoki with Empty Palm when he sees him charging Jinton or at least larger ones like the one you posted because it requires more chakra. Nor is it IC for Onoki to fly high and simply use that jutsu and he has not done so in any fight, he stays within a reasonable range to use his other jutsu.



> Onoki fragile? You do realize the guy tanked a meteor and still managed to get up, right?  He's anything but fragile. His back issues are purely for comedic purposes.


Tanking it yet he was stretched out on the ground, thats nice. It was even stated that his injuries were severe while people like Temari had only arm injuries and some other ninja got up like nothing happened. Its canon he would have died against Mu if Naruto didnt show up and Gaara werent there. Willpower aint enough to pull you a win.



> And I don't bother arguing with you because it's pointless. I could've easily picked apart your argument in the other thread, but arguing against such stupidity is just pointless. I don't even know why I bothered here.


 Thats why we say actions speak louder than words


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## Bonly Jr. (Aug 5, 2013)

αce said:


> Hiashi is like Asuma level. I don't even care what anyone says.



Hiashi shits on Asuma. He's at least a tier above him.

OT - Definitely not Kage level. I'd give him high Jounin. He can do everything Neji can, but on a larger scale.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Nothing in my post was speculation, it was all facts. As I said nothing is stopping Hiashi from throwing Onoki with Empty Palm when he sees him charging Jinton or at least larger ones like the one you posted because it requires more chakra. Nor is it IC for Onoki to fly high and simply use that jutsu and he has not done so in any fight, he stays within a reasonable range to use his other jutsu.



So now Onoki has to be IC for Hiashi to have a chance?  Onoki's flight and jinton are his primary fighting style, so yes that's what he does in most battles.

And his jinton speed is extremely fast (Link removed), so good luck to Hiashi in being able to get a shot off before Onoki disintegrates him. . Did I also mention that Onoki can use clones for distraction?



> Tanking it yet he was stretched out on the ground, thats nice.



Did he get up? I'll let the manga speak for me.





> It was even stated that his injuries were severe while people like Temari had only arm injuries and some other ninja got up like nothing happened. Its canon he would have died against Mu if Naruto didnt show up and Gaara werent there. Willpower aint enough to pull you a win.



Was Temari hit head on by two meteors? No. Was Onoki? Once again, I'll let the manga speak for me.



The fact that Onoki didn't die or was even knocked out from such an attack destroys your notion of Onoki being fragile. 



> Thats why we say actions speak louder than words



There's no need for action when dealing with such (insert nicer word).

Anyway, I've got work. I'll respond later, that's if I even care enough to bother.


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## Sans (Aug 5, 2013)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara and Kakuzu were bested by Hebi Sasuke and FRS Naruto who were barely Kage Level themselves They can't beat any Kage in the manga nor could they compete with Kakashi, Gai or Sasori they are a notch below that level
> 
> They wouldn't wipe the floor with people like Dan, Darui, Chiyo, Chouji, Kankuro ect





Deidara was literally introduced _beating a Kage_. Hebi Sasuke was impressive and could likely beat several of the Kage we've seen, and also possessed counters to Deidara's move-set.

Kakuzu was defeated by a team effort. Kakashi was being run ragged and considering Kamui, the jutsu which has been important in absolute top tier battles. By the time Naruto showed up, several of Kakuzu's hearts had already been killed. Naruto himself would have potentially lost early on, if Yamato and Kakashi didn't interfere in his first skirmish with Kakuzu. Then Naruto defeated the Akatsuki with Rasenshuriken, far surpassing his father's attempts to develop the Rasengan, and Kakashi stated that he had been surpassed. Kakashi himself had been considered for the role of Hokage by that time.

Deidara and Kakuzu aren't necessarily outstanding when compared to Kage and above characters, but to call them elite jounin is, well, wrong.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> So now Onoki has to be IC for Hiashi to have a chance?  Onoki's flight and jinton are his primary fighting style, so yes that's what he does in most battles.


No, it has to do with what Onoki would typically do in a battle situation and he isnt about to fly up and nuke because he has never done so before. He does fly up and use Jinton, but he dosent fly up hundreds of meters and unleashes his strongest attack. He got close to Sasuke, he got close to Kabuto, he didnt do so against Mu, and he didnt do so when he was fighting Madara's clones and quite to the opposite he fought on the ground; to say he does so here is flawed.



> And his jinton speed is extremely fast (Link removed), so good luck to Hiashi in being able to get a shot off before Onoki disintegrates him. . Did I also mention that Onoki can use clones for distraction?


Yet it has a high charge time and I dont believe Onoki has used clones while using Jinton at the same time. Not to mention Hiashi can handle clones anyway because he cant be taken by surprise unless you show me them using Jinton.



> Did he get up? I'll let the manga speak for me.


He got up after resting for ample time and and was in no position to be fighting. Its like saying Kabuto tankes Naruto's Rasengan even though he could barely move afterwards.



> Was Temari hit head on by two meteors? No. Was Onoki? Once again, I'll let the manga speak for me.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that Onoki didn't die or was even knocked out from such an attack destroys your notion of Onoki being fragile.


He was not hit on the head with it or he would have been under the rocks, he was only a little bit closer than everyone else was to the meteors, the distance was not that far to say he took significantly more damage than everyone else. Some people got up like nothing happened, Onoki almost died.



> There's no need for action when dealing with such (insert nicer word).
> 
> Anyway, I've got work. I'll respond later, that's if I even care enough to bother.


Mhm.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Deidara was literally introduced _beating a Kage_.


Deidara beat a guy who was given the Kazekage title due to the strength of Shukaku not his own. He also only won because he force Gaara to save the village, he was getting his ass handed to him before that. I'm aware that Deidara had his own disadvantages, but that was no fault but his own. 



> Hebi Sasuke was impressive and could likely beat several of the Kage we've seen, and also possessed counters to Deidara's move-set.


Hebi Sasuke's chance of beating even the weakest Kage we've seen (Mei) is pretty slim to be honest. Demonic Mist would block Sharingan and just make it bitch for Sasuke to land a hit on Mei. Also unfortunately Sasuke's only long range attacks with decent AOE are his Katons, which are completely overwhelmed by Mei's Suitons giving Mei the long range advantage throughout most of the fight. The problem is if Sasuke tries for CQC he's essentially charging in blind do to demonic mist and also exposing himself to Futton which w/o Susano'o to defend means a very sudden and painful death. Even Snake Summons aren't much help against Mei since a quick Youton will kill them off easily.

Really Hebi Sasuke's only hope to win is Kirin, but he doesn't tend to pull out Kirin until late in the battle and again getting Katons past Mei will be very difficult.

In the case of any other Kage his chances are even worse imo. Hebi Sasuke's placement on or off Kage level is a bit difficult to determine, since he is an weird position because Kirin has the potential to defeat Kage level individuals, but outside of Kirin his abilities seem to fall a bit short of Kage level.

As for Hebi Sasuke vs Deidara, really the elemental advantage doesn't matter because if not for Obito, Sasuke would have killed Deidara in a few seconds with Shunshin blitz, due to Deidara being a dumbass and trying to fight on the ground with C1 and that's really Deidara's problem Kishi randomly has him turn into a dumbass.



> Kakuzu was defeated by a team effort. Kakashi was being run ragged and considering Kamui, the jutsu which has been important in absolute top tier battles. By the time Naruto showed up, several of Kakuzu's hearts had already been killed. Naruto himself would have potentially lost early on, if Yamato and Kakashi didn't interfere in his first skirmish with Kakuzu. Then Naruto defeated the Akatsuki with Rasenshuriken, far surpassing his father's attempts to develop the Rasengan, and Kakashi stated that he had been surpassed. Kakashi himself had been considered for the role of Hokage by that time.


Kakashi was nominated for the Hokage position during the Kages arc, when he had a-lot of growth since the immortals arc and the implication is that Kakashi would have beaten Kakuzu if he used Kamui anyway, albeit with high difficulty. Naruto also only became seriously considered for the seat after learning Senjutsu and defending the village from Pain. 

As for Kakuzu, I mean even weakest Kage we've seen can use the same amount of nature affinities as him but 2 of those affinities are more advanced due to being Kekkai Genkai (Futton and Youton). Kakuzu's also has Jingo for defense, but  Mei has massive Suitons, Demonic Mist, and Futton for defense. Also while I personally think at this moment a match between Kakuzu and Mei could be close, I also think it's obvious that Mei has more to show. Not only does Kishi have her coming with the other Gokage for round 2, but given her mastery of elemental fusions she likely also has high mastery of Katons and Dotons, which she has yet to display; I also seriously doubt that the single Youton and single Futton technique are the only ones she has.

So chances are Mei would probably beat Kakuzu and against any other Kage his chance get worse imo, despite quite a few of those Kage having less panel time than Kakuzu to accumulate feats. 



> Deidara and Kakuzu aren't necessarily outstanding when compared to Kage and above characters, but to call them elite jounin is, well, wrong.


I mean what do we call guys like Darui, Kitsuchi, Rusty Hanzo, and Mifune; Kage level or Elite Jonin. Whatever we call them I'd probably call Kakuzu and Deidara the same thing.


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## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Deidara beat a guy who was given the Kazekage title due to the strength of Shukaku not his own. He also only won because he force Gaara to save the village, he was getting his ass handed to him before that. I'm aware that Deidara had his own disadvantages, but that was no fault but his own.



Gaara was not given the title of Kazekage because of Shukaku. That came from nowhere.

Deidara won because he outsmarted Gaara with that bomb trick. This was without C4, Deidara's trump card.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Gaara was not given the title of Kazekage because of Shukaku. That came from nowhere.
> 
> Deidara won because he outsmarted Gaara with that bomb trick. This was without C4, Deidara's trump card.


Yes if you read the Suna arc the elders specifically state they gave him the position as a ploy to try and control the power of Shukaku. 

Deidara did create an opening on Gaara, but it only worked because Deidara targeted the village forcing Gaara to defend it. Even than Gaara still had power left, but had to use it to move the sand shield away from the village.

Deidara lacking C4 and his normal clay reserve was 100% his fault Sasori even tried to tell him to prepare himself better, but he refused to do so. So I don't give him an extra credit for that, in-fact I take away credit, because he screwed himself over and merely got lucky that Gaara was willing to sacrifice himself for the village


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## Sutātekken (Aug 6, 2013)

IMO I think Hiashi is a High Jounin level about the same as Gai in fact you can say Hiashi is for Gai as Neji is for Lee but the match-ups are all out of his Favor while I think he could Survive all 3 fights using Rotation and Retreating like he did against the Jubi's Arm/Tail His offensive abilities aren't Suited for combating Long distance fighters like Sasori and Mei though he could get a hit or 2 on Darui


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## Jad (Aug 6, 2013)

Sutātekken said:


> IMO I think Hiashi is a High Jounin level about the same as Gai in fact you can say Hiashi is for Gai as Neji is for Lee but the match-ups are all out of his Favor while I think he could Survive all 3 fights using Rotation and Retreating like he did against the Jubi's Arm/Tail His offensive abilities aren't Suited for combating Long distance fighters like Sasori and Mei though he could get a hit or 2 on Darui



Wait, you believe Hiashi > Gai? High Jounin Level Gai? But...wait? What? Do you mean High Jounin level as in considered in the manga? Or High Jounin Level as considered in power and strength? Because obviously, Gai is a Jounin - but his power far exceeds that.


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## Bonly (Aug 6, 2013)

I'd say that Hiashi is low Kage level. He he's basically a better Neji+Hinata, has quite a bit of power and he has the potential to beat some Kage level ninja as well.


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## Kaiser (Aug 6, 2013)

Defeats Tsunade or Mei for me, so Kage level


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> He's high jounin level at best.
> 
> But Sasori and Kakuzu are both Kage level, not high jounin.
> 
> ...



why isnt air palm a valid counter to mei ninjutsu???? he did after sent juubi level 2 tail flying. No reason to believe he cant send her jutsu back where they came from. Also its convienent you suggest he approaches when he has no need to. He can keep spamming empty palm and might only approach if he has knocked her down. Otherwise why approach??
*empty palm has feats of busting of zetsu, the same zetsu which tanked 2 sakura punches without any holes in it. The same sakura which downed a summon mind you. *
Also if air palm makes direct contact which it would MEi would be hurt badly. Also its funny how people view ST as invisible and instant yet air palm hasnt shown to be any different, in terms of how it works on panel yet all of a sudden Mei can react to something she cant see. Do you think mei can block ST with her water wall? if so then ill agree but if you dont think so then there is no reason to think she can block air palm. 

If you think hiashi looses to sasori then you havent been reading my previous posts. Sakura !!! sakura got scratched twice and chiyo only once. Hiashi evasive abilities far outclasses theirs. he can emit chakra to detect and alter the momentum and trajectory of any projectile with just his chakra. He doesnt need rotation. rotation is only if some attack may get to his blind spot where he wont see coming so he rotates to avoid being hit. Otherwise he need not rotate. 
Also unless you can prove chiyo chakra shield is >>>>>>hiashi kaiten or air palm no reason to believe hiashi can block satetsu forever. Mind you chiyo blocked it on 3 different occasions. And actually never got hit by it. 
Sakura was able to punch back the bigger iron blocks sasori will resort to quickly. hiashi can empty palm them. 
truth is byakugan has been sidelined so people dont see its merits. 
Again hiashi doesnt need to come close to sasori at all. He is a glass cannon so are his puppers. Empty palm which deflected juubi tail, rinse and repeat should break apart , hiruko in 1 hit, 3rd kazekage in 1 hit. and a good portion of the 100 puppets in 1 hit. Also despite fighting against a good portion of puppets chiyo only got scratched once and sakura didnt get scratched at all. Hiashi by simply releasing chakra without rotating can break puppets that come close. The rest he can simply avoid. 
Remember gai strategy for defeating juuken *high speed combo(gates)* those puppets arent touching hiashi. He can block, repel and evade them. Also if you empty palm sasori its going to be kind of hard for him to keep controlling those puppets. 

 hiashi has the added advantage of being able to see the chakra strings. He can simply jukken the strings connected to sasori and strike with jukken with sasori own string. 
see how neji defeated kidomaru. by using jukken through kidomaru web.

we agree on hiashi defeating darui. I think he would with mid difficulty. Not because of darui skill but because hiashi is simply a good counter to darui.


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## Veracity (Aug 6, 2013)

Blake said:


> Defeats Tsunade or Mei for me, so Kage level



Doesn't have feats to beat Tsunade. Just speculation and assumption and it's wrong.


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

^ I agree he can't beat tsunade
However he can beat Mei who can handle any Jounin level with ease 
Doesn't that put hiashi at , High Jounin level ??
Certainly not Kage as I think he can maybe only beat 1 out of the 5 

To be Kage level by my scaling you need to be able to defeat 2-3 Kage
Which neither he, sasori or kakuzu can do

edit: So my scale seems to confuse some and might be a little off so who or what do you consider as 
jounin level 
high jounin level 
and kage level 

what criteria do you guys use. 

What i use is simple. 

Jounin level- exceeds quite obviously the capacities of sound 4, Post time skip sakura, and can at least compete with asuma
High jounin level- should beat asuma more times than not, and can even beat 1 or 2 of the 5 gokage
kage level- must be able to defeat  2 to 3 of the kage and at least compete with all of them.


----------



## Ersa (Aug 6, 2013)

Irrelevant level?


----------



## Olympian (Aug 6, 2013)

Close but essentially below Kakashi, Gai and Asuma as a whole. 

All those three are more of a fighter and are more versatile than he is.


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

^^i disagree
how on earth is asuma stronger than him??
kakashi and gai for specific reasons i agree. 
But asuma common!!!!....no way in hell can asuma compete with hiashi 
1 empty palm will be giving asuma alot of trouble already. in CQC asuma dies very quickly.
neji gives asuma a run for his money which certainly puts asuma well below hiashi 

i think people underestimate air palm, the ability of hiashi to sense and deflect objects with just his chakra (without rotating) as well as how strong his kaiten is
his kaiten did afterall block juubi tail, granted it was with neji. but do you guys know how so very very huge the juubi is. It is easily 5 times the size of a bijuu


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## -JT- (Aug 6, 2013)

All these people saying he beats Tsunade and Mei...

So do you believe that Neji, with more feats than Hiashi, can do so too?


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## Mercurial (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't see why Neji couldn't, not saying he wins easily, but he has the tools and the skills

I'd say Hiashi is S-rank level worhy, a great taijutsu user with Juken and Byakugan, head of the renowned Hyuuga clan of Konoha; he is definitely on the level of the top of the S-rank, ninja of the skill and power level of Nagato, Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, Minato and a few other, and also not on Ei, Onoki or Akatsuki as Deidara, Kisame or Kakuzu level, but definitely Hiashi could best most of elite jonin and fight on equal ground on low S-rank as Mizukage, Darui, Hidan, Tsunade, Chiyo etc


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> All these people saying he beats Tsunade and Mei...
> 
> So do you believe that Neji, with more feats than Hiashi, can do so too?



That's a dumb very very dumb argument 
We all know hiashi >>> neji
Feats even show this 
His air palm >>> neji
He is the leader of the clan which means anything neji has dine or can do he does it better 
His DB stats are higher 
Finally neji got killed by an attack he could easily block
Mei has less feats than chouji does this mean chouji wins 
Tobirama has less feats than base naruto
Does this mean base naruto wins 
 to your post no seriously 
Why write that

Using ur lame post against u
By feats even hiashi >>>> neji
Neji air palm fails to block tiny wood attacks compared to juubi tail
Hiashi wind palm knocks it back a good distance 
Hinata needed kyuubi chakra which allowed kakashi to kamui hachibi
The same kakashi whose base chakra can't hope to pull such off , all that chakra in order for her to compete with hiashi air palm

So there you go , ps: kyuubi chakra also allowed Nara clan to restrain juubi  level 2 when normally they won't even b able to restrain kyuubi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

Weaker than Itachi. Stronger than Tenten.


Too broad ?

Ok. 


He is probably stronger than Asuma, weaker than Msless Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Weaker than Itachi. Stronger than Tenten.
> 
> 
> Too broad ?
> ...



Lol 
How is he weaker than kakashi without MS ??
How does kakashi hit somone with hiashi level of defense ?
Lets not forget air palm which shifted juubi tail
You need to realise how absolutely gigantic juubi hand is to realise the AoE of hiashi air palm
Also kakashi has to come close to land a killing blow 
It's common knowledge that CQC against somone who only need tap you to kill you is indeed very very dangerous 
I don't see kakashi beating hiashi in CQC
Therefore I don't see kakashi winning 
Also clones won't work all that well because hiashi will be able to see kakashi regardless of where he hides . He will come to the same conclusion as neji
The kakashi hiding is the real one and the one coming in close is the clone 
Hiashi could be wrong however at least he will be able to keep up with kakashi bunshin feints 

Hiashi is at the very least Kakashi without MS level 
Unless someone can explain to me how kakashi wins without kamui
(Please tards don't reply to the last bit ) so no saying kakashi blitz and raikiri
That won't happen !!
Please remember gai solution to defeating jukken in CQC is gates
other solutions are available however kakashi has none 
None of his other elemental techniques bar ration based ones have the potential to kill


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## Gangryong Ma (Aug 6, 2013)

Jonin level. 

I don't think he can beat any of the current Kage, so he isn't that strong.


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

^ did you even look at the criteria I set ??
you obviously didn't
Also not being able to beat any Kage doesn't make you Jounin level
And he can beat Mei 
Am pretty sure , given the right scenario


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## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Icegaze, just stop. You have an overwhelming majority of people telling you you're wrong. You have a poll that reflects the same thing.

If you still disagree, that's fine. But you aren't convincing anyone.


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> please i beg of everyone before posting further can you please look at what niku wrote in the last 4 lines of this post.
> Hiruko takes the brunt of FRS???   . The same attack that killed kakuzu pretty much 3 times, the same attack which vaporized human path?  human path who has tanked SM jiriaya punch and kick?? meanwhile hiruko broke into pieces against sakura.
> And you dare say sasori survives the attack with little to no damage!!!...common Niku why are you doing this??? FRS offensively is well above any defense sasori has



Underrating Sakura. No surprise.

arm

arm

arm

^That kind of power was concentrated into the surface area of her fist. That was necessary to break Hiruko apart. FRS will smash it to pieces, but it'll still take the brunt of the attack for Sasori.



> *SAKURA WAS RESTRICTED!!* she hadnt released her seal and was storing chakra, this is a known fact



And she was also clearly inferior to Sasori. Your point?



> *satetsu was blocked by chiyo chakra shield, 3 times right, you know this right?? Without a dent on the shield i might add. *so why kaiten or simply deflecting it the same way hinata and neji were deflecting juubi wood techniques wont work is simply you spouting BS. Unless you can somehow prove that chiyo shield>>kaiten, or simply redirecting the attack with air palm, or simply using chakra  your point on that issue is moot.



Chiyo's chakra shield>Hiashi's Kaiten precisely because she has feats like that and he doesn't.



> The larger versions of satetsu once again were avoided by sakura, sakura, sakura. Wrote the name 3 times so it can sink in. Sakura was also punching them back and had those silly iron blocks flying back at sasori. Why cant hiashi air palm them back to sasori??  is hiashi air palm sooo far beneath restricted sakura strength that he cannot send those flying back?? i think not.



It is, actually; Kuushou has not demonstrated anywhere near the power Sakura does.



> once again FRS levels sasori anytime it is used. Can someone please pitch in on this last point. Please i cant be the only one who thinks FRS vaporizes sasori



FRS would kill Sasori if it hit his heart canister; otherwise, no.



> *Edit: I dont want to create a thread on this but can you all pitch in
> 
> what do you think happens if naruto throws an FRS at sasori while sasori is in hiruko.
> 
> ...



Hiruko is destroyed and Sasori is damaged but alive.



Icegaze said:


> do you honestly put him at kage level??
> if you cant beat mei and tsunade, who are actually only there because of their title then you cant be kage level.
> I dont believe kakuzu can beat Mei
> hence why i put him as high jonin. Every other kage should quite frankly murder kakuzu
> ...



Kakuzu would murderstomp the shit out of Mei. She can't do anything to him as long as Domu is in effect and his firepower is grossly superior to hers. If it comes down to Taijutsu, she's outclassed easily.

I'm extremely skeptical Gaara or his dad would be able to beat Kakuzu; it'd probably come down to a battle of attrition and I'm not completely sure who would outlast who. I think it would depend largely on how much effort they each put forward before they realized their attacks don't work on each other.



> Ps: i dont believe hiashi gets stomped by kakuzu.



Hiashi gets stomped by Kakuzu.



Turrin said:


> Lol the funny thing is konan can beat Itachi with the right prep



And the right location. One time in her life. Provided Itachi doesn't easily kill her first.



> and Deidara was defeated with help from Sasori by 3 Shinobi inferior to Darui.



Jobbing. Everyone complained about that outcome. Literally everyone. Everyone knows Kishimoto did not allow Deidara to exercise his full power in that engagement (and Sasori was stripped of his).



> I don't have to wall you because the manga proves my case for me.



The manga barely features Hiashi fighting at all and the guy who wrote it stated that Kakashi was the strongest Jounin Konoha had to offer back in part 1.



> If you think the strongest Hyuuga, who deflected a Juubi attack and can see half way across a country with his Byakugan is fodder with zero argument to support it, than that's your own problem.



Fodder compared to guys who are Bijuu-level or can defeat Kage and entire countries on their own? That is an argument in and of itself. No amount of hype Hiashi has received puts him near that level.



ueharakk said:


> No one who is trying to look at the manga with even a shred of honesty would argue that a puppet *that can't survive one of post timeskip sakura's punches* is going to protect sasori from the brunt of a SENNIN MODE FRS, the *same attack that damaged Kurama* *more than 25 Chou oodama rasengans* (mountain hollowers) the same attack that *enveloped half the chibaku tensei crater in its explosion.*



No one said the FRS was comparable to the Chou Oodama Rasengan barrage. Ever.



Icegaze said:


> ^^ I strongly disagree
> post time skip base sasuke gets air palmed and dies
> His speed isn't so great as to blitz hiashi and none of his base attacks would land
> I do consider him high Jounin so around kakuzu level





Post timeskip base Sasuke would just dodge the Kuushou and put Chidori through Hiashi's chest. Or tank it and then put Chidori through Hiashi's chest.


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

Yea man its all a matter of opinion, you can only assert your argument and leave it there. While I agree with you not everyone is going to think the same way for whatever reason. Kage level is such a weird term that its hard to say who is and who isnt and Hiashi can only really be powerscaled.


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## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Chiyo's chakra shield>Hiashi's Kaiten precisely because she has feats like that and he doesn't.



   Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.





Fuck you and your freakshow elephant-like memory.

Okay, yeah, I'll grant you: There is no guarantee that Chiyo's chakra shield is better than Hiashi's Kaiten. What I _should_ have said is more along the lines of "Chiyo's chakra shield has better tanking feats than Hiashi's Kaiten."

I was in the wrong here. Not as wrong as claiming Hiashi is Kage-level and can one-shot post-timeskip Sasuke with Hakke Kuushou, but still wrong.

I blame violent video games the Jews the Battledomes for programming me to think like that.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Lol
> How is he weaker than kakashi without MS ??
> [


He just is. :/



> How does kakashi hit somone with hiashi level of defense ?
> 
> Lets not forget air palm which shifted juubi tail
> You need to realise how absolutely gigantic juubi hand is to realise the AoE of hiashi air palm
> ...



Its not like Kakashi will just run up to him and kick him in the balls or something. 
He just sends a ranged jutsu and force Hiashi to use kaiten and then use doton and ambush him with raikiri.

Doton > Hyuuga confirmed in chuunin exam arc.





> Also clones won't work all that well because hiashi will be able to see kakashi regardless of where he hides . He will come to the same conclusion as neji
> The kakashi hiding is the real one and the one coming in close is the clone
> Hiashi could be wrong however at least he will be able to keep up with kakashi bunshin feints


Neji was trolled by Naruto via bunshin usage. And Kakashi is fuckloads smarter than Naruto. 
Besides, a Kb can pretty much use any jutsu the original has, so you have to deal with it eventhough you know it is not the original.



> Hiashi is at the very least Kakashi without MS level
> Unless someone can explain to me how kakashi wins without kamui
> (Please tards don't reply to the last bit ) so no saying kakashi blitz and raikiri
> That won't happen !!
> ...



I agree that CQC against a jyuuken user is dangerous but like I said, it isn't Kakashi's style to try to outtaijutsu his opponents.

He needs a diversion and them boom pick him off. 

Besides, you are trying to see this through a match up perspective instead of assessing their levels seperately.


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## -JT- (Aug 6, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> I don't see why Neji couldn't, not saying he wins easily, but he has the tools and the skills
> 
> I'd say Hiashi is S-rank level worhy, a great taijutsu user with Juken and Byakugan, head of the renowned Hyuuga clan of Konoha; he is definitely on the level of the top of the S-rank, ninja of the skill and power level of Nagato, Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, Minato and a few other, and also not on Ei, Onoki or Akatsuki as Deidara, Kisame or Kakuzu level, but definitely Hiashi could best most of elite jonin and fight on equal ground on low S-rank as Mizukage, Darui, Hidan, Tsunade, Chiyo etc


Ok, fair enough. Yes, he definitely has the tools to do so.



Icegaze said:


> That's a dumb very very dumb argument
> We all know hiashi >>> neji
> Feats even show this
> His air palm >>> neji
> ...



 Woah, calm down, it was a simple question.
The databooks say that Neji surpassed the entire clan, so it is not at all unreasonable to think he is stronger than Hiashi. Of course, we know that Hiashi's Air Palm is much stronger than Neji's, so that's already a spanner in the works, but that could just be one jutsu among many.


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## Icegaze (Aug 6, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Ok, fair enough. Yes, he definitely has the tools to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



DB also says you need tskuyomi and AMA to have susanoo
Which comes with yata
We know this to be untrue 
So using DB is a weak argument 

so no hiashi by feats far outclasses neji quite conspicuously

@Niku Domu has barely any defensive fears yet you would say it can defend against iron sand 
Isn't that faulty logic since chouji attack doesn't translate to iron sand attack


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## Sans (Aug 6, 2013)

The DB in question also listed Itachi as the only user, so it was likely speaking about the specific prerequisites and abilities of Itachi's Susano'o.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 6, 2013)

I can't make a choice, because your description is totally screwed up!

Jounin level-asuma, darui
High jounin level-sasori, kakuzu
Kage level- Ei, kakashi, gai, Mei

Darui & Asuma are only a regular jounin?  The regular jounin are the anbu ninja who die like flies to higher level jounin like Kakashi.  The story doesn't even bother to give them a name, because they die so quick! These guys are obviously High Jounin level shinobi.

Sasori and Kakuzu are only high Jounin?  ROFL!!!

Sasori killed the 3rd Kazekage, who was famed to be the strongest of all the Kazekage!
You list Kakashi as kage level, yet he was getting his ass stomped by Kakuzu!  Despite the sneak attack that took out one of his hearts during the ambush. Kakuzu even fought the 1st Hokage and lived to tell about it!  He subdues tailed beast for akatsuki.  This guy is obviously Kage level!

Kakashi is high jounin low kage level.
Hiashi is high jounin.




-JT- said:


> Ok, fair enough. Yes, he definitely has the tools to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Those Databooks have and always will be filler thrown in without any thought.


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## joshhookway (Aug 6, 2013)

He's low Jounin with Asuma and Aoba. Nothing special about. He would get murdered by Gaia and Kakashi.


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## Jagger (Aug 6, 2013)

What's next? Hiashi can give Base Hashirama a run for his money?


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## Sans (Aug 7, 2013)

If I slapped Bruce Lee's hand and it moved five centimetres, would that also be a good feat?


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 7, 2013)

*If I may also opine...*

Hiashi is on Gai~kakashi level...as are Asuma, Darui Hidan & Mei.

...and Saasori & Kakuzu are above their lot...

...and neither 'powerscale' nor _matchups_ have anything  to do w/ this.


.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Can anyone please contribute to Niku ridiculous statement that hiruko can take he brunt of FRS??
Also chiyo used pure chakra to block iron sand no reason to believe her chakra defense is anymore dense than Kaiten
Seeing that the hyuuga are the specialist at using chakra for defense
They are also the best at controlling their chakra. Also Niku u wont say preta path can't absorb iron Sand
Yet it has no feats of doing so. So absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence 

Ps: to everyone confused about the scale please use the names I gave as a guide 
Makes more sense, this isn't about YOUR scaling its about mine 

My scale has been explained several times 
An you cannot b Kage level if Ei has no trouble Beating you or if you cannot beat 2 out of the 5 Kage 
sasori will be stomped by Ei. That right there doesn't make him Kage level 
If a current Kage can fodder you then you aren't Kage level 
and sasori is fodder to Ei. Iron sand his best offence . And that didn't even pierce chiyo chakra shield 
Why would it pierce Ei ration . Please note Ei cannot fodderize any of the current Kage . Their attacks can actually kill him unlike sasori's


----------



## Olympian (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> ^^i disagree
> how on earth is asuma stronger than him??
> kakashi and gai for specific reasons i agree.
> But asuma common!!!!....no way in hell can asuma compete with hiashi
> ...



Yeah...he`s going to just stand there, that`s his fighting style. And i can`t help notice you only place Asuma "well below" just because of Neji.


Icegaze said:


> think people underestimate air palm, the ability of hiashi to sense and deflect objects with just his chakra (without rotating) as well as how strong his kaiten is



I think you are going a bit far if you think Neji can give Asuma a run for his money. He`s too one dimensional to take on any of the sensei. Hiashi is obviously stronger, despite the DB claiming Neji became the strongest of the clan, so him i can believe to be a handfull. 

Still, any of the other three are more versatile and have been in the frontlines more often. Also, Kaiten can be avoided or countered. Futton can be avoided but it`s harder to counter if you work with less range like Neji does. 



Icegaze said:


> his kaiten did afterall block juubi tail, granted it was with neji. but do you guys know how so very very huge the juubi is. It is easily 5 times the size of a bijuu



Nothing indicates it couldn`t be cut by Futton. In fact, didn`t Obito kind of did the same with big Shurikens?


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Yeah...he`s going to just stand there, that`s his fighting style. And i can`t help notice you only place Asuma "well below" just because of Neji.
> 
> 
> I think you are going a bit far if you think Neji can give Asuma a run for his money. He`s too one dimensional to take on any of the sensei. Hiashi is obviously stronger, despite the DB claiming Neji became the strongest of the clan, so him i can believe to be a handfull.
> ...



Nothing indicates that futton can cut it 
Also why does everyone automatically think hiashi has to come close 
Air palm people !!! Asuma has only shown 2 range techniques which are slower and easier to avoid than air palm. Yet people think asuma can keep hiashi at a distance 
That's pure bias!!
Air palm is hiashi hitting u with just chakra, no handseals or nothing 
Also normal people can't see chakra so it's difficult to avoid 
There is hardly any difference shown on panel between air palm and shinra tensei 
Yet everyone says ST is instant and can't be avoided
So why can air palm be so easily avoided ????
Show me someone avoidin it!! That's the general excuse for ST being unavoidable 

Again people can't see chakra and air palm is hiashi hitting you with chakra you can't see 

And yes neji can give asuma a run for his money 
He doesn't need to come close , he can keep
Spamming air palm nothing says he can't 
Kimimaro will also give asuma a run for his money hence why asuma is just Jounin by my scale 

Jukken cuts through chakra hien is a chakra based attack , jukken cuts through it

Read on air palm please do!! It has not been avoided so far 
and is chakra which normal eyes can't see hitting you 
With enough force to blow zetsu to bits when Sakura punch failed to do so

Ps: obito never used giant shirkuen to cut through Kaiten 
It's was a wood technique and it overwhelmed neji Kaiten 
Which is much smaller and weaker than hiashi 
Also the sheer number of wood projectiles was being used against a platoon 
So neji falling against it doesn't translate to hien being able to cut jukken


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Neji is a jounin so he could likely give Asuma a decent fight, but I doubt he would win.
Would Hiashi beat Asuma?  Maybe, but it wouldn't be easy.  Even, if he could then it might just be because he is at a disadvantage in fighting styles.  Thus, that doesn't necessarily make him a higher tier than Asuma.


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## -JT- (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> DB also says you need tskuyomi and AMA to have susanoo
> Which comes with yata
> We know this to be untrue
> So using DB is a weak argument
> ...



Except the only better feat than Neji that Hiashi has is his Wind Palm. Neji's Rotation is now the same size as Hiashi's, as we saw when they performed the jutsu side by side.

I love Hiashi, but it's silly to think that Neji isn't at least of a very similar level to him.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Except the only better feat than Neji that Hiashi has is his Wind Palm. Neji's Rotation is now the same size as Hiashi's, as we saw when they performed the jutsu side by side.
> 
> I love Hiashi, but it's silly to think that Neji isn't at least of a very similar level to him.



Actually it is silly to think that neji is on a similar level 
Hinata and neji air palm was struggling to deflect tooth picks 
Compare to juubi tail, Hinata need kyuubi chakra to deflect the same tail hiashi did without 

Also neji hasn't shown Kaiten on par with wot hiashi showed in part 1 
Who said hiashi used his biggest Kaiten to block juubi tail 

Hiashi is the leader of his clan it's silly to think that neji would be able to compete 
Neji doesn't even know the clans sealing techniques as well as others because he is a branch member 

Kyuubi chakra allowed kakashi to wrap hachibi
That's how much he got amped up
Hinata needed the same amp up to do wot hiashi can do by himself 

Hiashi can do everything they can but better 
Would be silly to think neji can pull of jukken techs with more skill 
While hiashi has 20+ years of experience 
jukken is all they know 
And you don't become clan leader because you aren't the best 
the war was the best time to show that neji was on hiashi 
Level 
What kishi showed is that neji<<<<hiashi

@Mods would it b flaming if I do a poll to Ask NF 
What they think about FRS vs hiruko who btw is a defense well below rib cage susanoo
Since apparently Niku says I should look at the polls and the polls say am wrong 
so would like to do a poll showing him how much more wrong his statement was


----------



## -JT- (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Actually it is silly to think that neji is on a similar level
> Hinata and neji air palm was struggling to deflect tooth picks
> Compare to juubi tail, Hinata need kyuubi chakra to deflect the same tail hiashi did without
> 
> ...



Hiashi seemingly couldn't take Hizashi down alone, and surely even you can agree that Neji > Hizashi?

Of course Neji isn't going to know the sealing techniques- as you rightly said, he's a branch member. But in a fair fight, that particular technique becomes moot.

One possible explanation that another member and I came up with is that Hiashi surpasses Neji in the ninjutsu aspect of the clan's power (Wind Palm, Rotation etc) while Neji is better in raw taijutsu. After all, Hiashi was dumbfounded to see that Neji had learned the 64 Palms as a branch member at such a young age, and it never occurred to Hinata (who would surely know of all the clan's techniques in theory) that Neji could even turn off chakra points during their match.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

-JT- said:


> Hiashi seemingly couldn't take Hizashi down alone, and surely even you can agree that Neji > Hizashi?
> 
> Of course Neji isn't going to know the sealing techniques- as you rightly said, he's a branch member. But in a fair fight, that particular technique becomes moot.
> 
> One possible explanation that another member and I came up with is that Hiashi surpasses Neji in the ninjutsu aspect of the clan's power (Wind Palm, Rotation etc) while Neji is better in raw taijutsu. After all, Hiashi was dumbfounded to see that Neji had learned the 64 Palms as a branch member at such a young age, and it never occurred to Hinata (who would surely know of all the clan's techniques in theory) that Neji could even turn off chakra points during their match.



Actually no I don't agree that neji >> hizahi
No reason to believe that
Also jukken isn't the most effective thing against ET
U noe hence why he needed chouji fire power to assist 
thought that was obvious 
Now u grasping at straws 
Air palm is taijutsu

On panel hiashi showed he is better what more do you want ??
We also see neji training with hiashi in taijutsu
Why try to improve your skills by training with someone you are better than ??

He decided to train with hiashi after he lost to naruto
To ensure he never looses again . 
In part 1 hinabi was well superior to hinata despite her lack of feats
Just saying 
in this case both feats and Portrayal put hiashi above neji


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## -JT- (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Actually no I don't agree that neji >> hizahi
> No reason to believe that
> Also jukken isn't the most effective thing against ET
> U noe hence why he needed chouji fire power to assist
> ...



So you're telling me that you don't even believe Neji surpassed the Branch family, when no other branch member ever before had learned the main household jutsus...?

When was it ever said that Gentle Fist was useless against Edos? Hizashi vs Hiashi was the only Edo/Hyuga fight we saw. Hinata and Neji fought Zetsus.

We saw Neji fighting Hiashi in Part 1, when he was obviously stronger, so even if I was saying that Hiashi is weaker in Part 2, that panel wouldn't count.

Hanabi was stronger because it was outright stated. In the databook it is outright stated that Neji surpassed the Hyuga clan.
Yet at the same time, Hiashi has some higher stats. Neji has more bountiful feats in the manga, Hiashi has less feats but one jutsu of a much higher quality. Can we at least agree that there are inconsistencies abound?


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

-JT- said:


> So you're telling me that you don't even believe Neji surpassed the Branch family, when no other branch member ever before had learned the main household jutsus...?
> 
> When was it ever said that Gentle Fist was useless against Edos? Hizashi vs Hiashi was the only Edo/Hyuga fight we saw. Hinata and Neji fought Zetsus.
> 
> ...



I surely do agree with the inconsistencies found 
Jukken is useless against ET because it doesn't focus on external damage
They are after all tapping you with chakra to hurt you inside 
ET don't have insides 
granted neji is probably bette than hizashi but so is hiashi
Not being able to be the ET version of hizashi is normal 
His jukken can't work on ET
Only air palm would be useful 

You do agree that hiashi is better than neji don't you ?
If so then let's leave it at that


----------



## Olympian (Aug 7, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> He's low Jounin with Asuma and Aoba. Nothing special about. He would get murdered by Gaia and Kakashi.



So now Asuma and Aoba are paired together?


----------



## Reznor (Aug 7, 2013)

Fact: Noone has employed any strategy against Aoba besides "run away" and lived.


----------



## Olympian (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Nothing indicates that futton can cut it



Giant Shuriken can. Futton hasn`t really fell down in terms of hype, considering it has been used to cut durable things when they show up. 



Icegaze said:


> Also why does everyone automatically think hiashi has to come close . Air palm people !!! Asuma has only shown 2 range techniques which are slower and easier to avoid than air palm. Yet people think asuma can keep hiashi at a distance
> That's pure bias!!



He needs to come closer. Asuma`s two elemental attacks *got more range* than Air Pam does. And then when you get close to him you have to bypass the two Futton blades. Asuma`s Katon is harder to avoid by nature, it`s a cloud of smoke before it burns. Hiashi can rotate the ash away but when he stops spinning he`s vulnerable. 



Icegaze said:


> Show me someone avoidin it!! That's the general excuse for ST being unavoidable



It can be countered. It has been countered. 



Icegaze said:


> And yes neji can give asuma a run for his money
> He doesn't need to come close , he can keep
> Spamming air palm nothing says he can't
> Kimimaro will also give asuma a run for his money hence why asuma is just Jounin by my scale



Yes, he needs to come closer. His rotation doesn`t have the same area of hit than the elemental attacks.  

Kimimaro`s main issue is Bone Forest, but Asuma`s Hien seems sharper in my mind. Hence why i give him the edge between the two. Also in my mind Kimimaro > Neji. 



Icegaze said:


> Jukken cuts through chakra hien is a chakra based attack , jukken cuts through it



Where is that ever indicated?



Icegaze said:


> Ps: obito never used giant shirkuen to cut through Kaiten



I wasn`t talking about Kaiten when i mention Giant Shuriken.


----------



## Olympian (Aug 7, 2013)

Reznor said:


> Fact: Noone has employed any strategy against Aoba besides "run away" and lived.



Flight and see....that is a great point


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Giant Shuriken can. Futton hasn`t really fell down in terms of hype, considering it has been used to cut durable things when they show up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1)prove asuma elemental attacks have more range than air palm go on ill wait. !!!

2) show me air palm or ST being countered. how does asuma avoid chakra he cant see?? you said it has been countered i need to see it

3) burning ash is ash like you say, before asuma ignites it. why cant hiashi air palm it away from himself. Or simply you know jump away. 

4) hidan stood still so that it could hit him, burning ash is not that hard to avoid 

5) hiashi CQC exceeds asuma, asuma needs to swing hien to kill hiashi. HIashi only need tap asuma anywhere to take the match. Tap vs swinging at someone am sure you know which is easier. Jukken has been known to cut chakra, see neji vs kidomaru. He cut through kidomaru webs, same webs that sasuke chose to use enton against saying a regular sword cant cut them. 

6) he doesnt need to come closer, his air palm hit juubi level 2 hand from very far away. If he comes close it is to asuma disadvantage. Since he only needs to tap asuma arms, chest, leg or anywhere else to win the fight. lets not forget he can use his chakra to alter the momentum of attacks without moving. 

7) hien is only sharper in your mind no way to prove that it actually is. kimimaro base bones blocked samurai chakra blade, the same blade which seemed on par with sasuke chidori sword.

what where you talking about when you mentioned giant shuriken?? also you cant prove air palm cant deflect giant shiruken. It seemed to have no problem deflecting juubi wood attacks , till neji got overwhelmed by the shear number of them.


----------



## Dr. White (Aug 7, 2013)

Hiashi scrapes at Kage Level because he is the master of one of the best Taijutsu fighting styles in the world. He can gain a ridiculous amount of info on you from the get at up to 500m with the byakugan, blow back Juubi Arms(larger than a swipe from even Kyuubi), Rotation that can protect from Juubi projectiles, and ridiculous CqC reflexes.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

^ i dont agree he is kage level solely based on my criteria 
he could however be based on different criteria being used. 
i agree with everything else you said though Dr White. People underestimate him, simply due to the lack of interest kishi has for such characters. they dont realise how useful his fighting style is and that all it takes for him to kill anyone is a tap. Most characters need to pull out the stops to kill. 

eg: itachi needs MS to kill Ei, gai needs gates to kill Ei; both of these things burn their stamina and require them going all out. if Ei gets careless, all hiashi needs to do is tap his chest and he dies.  That is one example, it doesnt mean that hiashi>Ei 
but what i am saying stands, itachi needs MS to kill high level opponents,same way gai needs gates to kill high level opponents. Another example kakuzu, both itachi and gai will need to go all out. If hiashi gets close he only need tap him. He can kill both fodder and high level the same way, so long as he can touch them he can kill them. 

that right there is very dangerous. Also note jukken can cut through susanoo which people like to forget that. 
jukken specifically cuts through chakra, see kidomaru web. Again not saying hiashi can beat madara all of a sudden.

Edit: people hype tsunade evasive abilities yet you all do know that being at expert at using jukken and the byakugan would make hiashi alot better at evading attacks. 50m barrier that detects and alters trajectory of projectiles as well as 359 degree field of vision. Why does everyone think its so easy to hit hiashi??? If you guys believe tsunade without katsuyu can beat asuma , then so can hiashi.
 if tsunade can avoid it, then someone like hiashi should as well. This has nothing to do with speed (which his Db stats show he is faster) but more to do with reflexes, his should be better as well, since he can clearly see the chakra build up before each attack. 

*Same way being a sensor allows you more time to avoid an attack* What naruto did with frog katas against sandaime can be repeated and has been done by the byakugan. 

doesnt mean hiashi cannot be touched but people shouldnt downplay his abilities due to lack of panel time. He could very well GG kakuzu if kakuzu catches him with his threads. he can simply flow his chakra to kakuzu thread and damage kakuzu hearts.
 A genin neji did after damage kidomaru organ*(s)* using that strategy


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 7, 2013)

Hiashi should at least be up there with Asuma, or up there in the Strong Jounin catagory.

Hiashi's brief showings have him casually defeating squads and squads of ninja with pure taijutsu, before blowing away an even larger group with a single rotation, and then later he's seen defending against the Juubi, and knocking away hands with his air palm wall.  

I'd place him around Darui+ level.  The higher levels of jounin, but not the elite levels like Kakashi and Itachi, and certainly not a kage.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also would say Sasori and Kakuzu are kage level, since they both fought kages, and in Sasori's case, killed theirs.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

-JT- said:


> So you're telling me that you don't even believe Neji surpassed the Branch family, when no other branch member ever before had learned the main household jutsus...?
> 
> When was it ever said that Gentle Fist was useless against Edos? Hizashi vs Hiashi was the only Edo/Hyuga fight we saw. Hinata and Neji fought Zetsus.
> 
> ...



No one is saying that Neji isn't skilled or that he isn't a genius shinobi.   
We are saying he was 17!  He was nowhere near his prime!  In the future, he would have easily surpassed Hiashi!


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> @Niku Domu has barely any defensive fears yet you would say it can defend against iron sand
> Isn't that faulty logic since chouji attack doesn't translate to iron sand attack



Kakuzu survived a Bijuu paw and FRS without Domu. With Domu, he knocked a meter-thick iron gate off its hinges unharmed and took zero damage from an exploding tag kunai; Kakuzu has plenty of defensive feats with and without Domu. I don't know why you're bringing up Satetsu or Chouji, though.



joshhookway said:


> He's low Jounin with Asuma and Aoba. Nothing special about. He would get murdered by Gaia and Kakashi.



^This.

Kakashi or Gai would mop the floor with Hiashi. Anyone stronger would sodomize him.



Jagger said:


> What's next? Hiashi can give Base Hashirama a run for his money?



Wait for it...



Komnenos said:


> If I slapped Bruce Lee's hand and it moved five centimetres, would that also be a good feat?



That's pretty much this thread in a nutshell.



Icegaze said:


> Can anyone please contribute to Niku ridiculous statement that hiruko can take he brunt of FRS??
> Also chiyo used pure chakra to block iron sand no reason to believe her chakra defense is anymore dense than Kaiten
> Seeing that the hyuuga are the specialist at using chakra for defense
> They are also the best at controlling their chakra.



Does it hurt?



> Also Niku u wont say preta path can't absorb iron Sand
> Yet it has no feats of doing so. So absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence



Fujutsu Kyuin can't absorb Satetsu because Satetsu isn't made of chakra. It might be able to absorb the chakra controlling it, but it can't absorb what is really just a pile of iron shavings.



> Ps: to everyone confused about the scale please use the names I gave as a guide
> Makes more sense, this isn't about YOUR scaling its about mine



Your scaling is fucked-up, hence the confusion.



> My scale has been explained several times
> An you cannot b Kage level if Ei has no trouble Beating you or if you cannot beat 2 out of the 5 Kage
> sasori will be stomped by Ei. That right there doesn't make him Kage level
> If a current Kage can fodder you then you aren't Kage level



Um...what? Hashirama is a Kage and he would fodderize A. So by your logic, A isn't Kage-level. 



> and sasori is fodder to Ei. Iron sand his best offence . And that didn't even pierce chiyo chakra shield
> Why would it pierce Ei ration .



It wouldn't, but that has nothing to do with a shinobi's level; Minato can't pierce Sandaime Raikage with any of his attacks but is obviously the much stronger shinobi. Danzou, Obito, and a good deal of other characters can't breach Itachi's Susano'o, yet they have a good chance of outlasting him or beating him by other means.

This isn't DBZ; there are other ways to win that don't involve inflicting physical damage.



> Please note Ei cannot fodderize any of the current Kage .



A can easily fodderize every current Kage except for Tsunade.

And when I say "easily," I mean like one attack with Shunshin and they are dead.



> Their attacks can actually kill him unlike sasori's



Sasori could kill him with poison gas, actually.

But the reason he wouldn't and the reason none of the other current Kage can is because they could never hit A in a million years without somehow catching him unaware.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 8, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> If I slapped Bruce Lee's hand and it moved five centimetres, would that also be a good feat?



Yes.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakuzu survived a Bijuu paw and FRS without Domu. With Domu, he knocked a meter-thick iron gate off its hinges unharmed and took zero damage from an exploding tag kunai; Kakuzu has plenty of defensive feats with and without Domu. I don't know why you're bringing up Satetsu or Chouji, though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



knocking the gate is not a defensive feat, we already know it increases his strength. Saying he blocked the nibi paw isnt impressive either. No way to know if Nibi is any stronger than sakura in terms of dishing out attacks. Bijuu though they have alot of power dont control it well this has been stated. 

your hiruko can tank FRS claim is far more ridiculous refer to the thread a look at the polls you come off as way more silly than i do. So no it doesnt hurt. 
kakuzu best defensive feat is tanking chouji spiky meat ball, again no way to say thats impressive or that chouji attack has any where close to the piercing power or impact of satetsu, this is why i brought up chouji. So now would you say kakuzu can tank iron sand??? if so why

chiyo used just chakra to block iron sand, the same shield kankuro can pull off btw. The hyuuga are known for using just chakra to defend against attacks. There is no evidence or reason to believe that hiashi kaiten cant casually block iron sand. Air palm is just a fraction of kaiten power that was able to push back juubi level 2 hand. 
also like i have been saying time and time again sakura only got scratched twice!!! scratched!!!! 
someone with greater evasive abilities wont be touched 

since you are obviously slow ill explain it again. My scale is based on the gokage. If you can compete or beat them, you are kage level. if you are a bloody kage, eg: Mei you are kage level 
if you can only beat 1 or 2 you are high jounin 
cant beat any you are jounin 

simple scale. 

also we both know sasori cant do squat to Ei, if his only way to kill Ei is poison gas, which btw can be countered by holding your breath. sakura survived it, while being tied to it. good luck tying Ei with ropes. 
the fact that you bring up poison gas shows how desperate you are. 

Ei cannot defeat onoki, feel free to do a thread with a poll, since you like to be proven wrong this is good practice. Well we agree Ei will have a hard time with tsunade. 
Ei should not be able to defeat gaara. We have already seen how he handles someone so much faster than himself. He simply tanks them with his sand skin pr replaces himself when they arent looking. 
Mei has acid mist which Ei will not be able to distinguish from regular mist. Mei can fight in her acid mist. Good luck rushing in when her mist can melt susanoo rib cage and burn sasuke 

i agree with one thing being unable to damage someone, i.e minato vs sandaime raikage 
doesnt mean minato is at a lower level. However who says minato cant damage him?
minato can block his chakra using his sealing techniques, or simply come to the same conclusion naruto did. use his attack against himself. and TADAAA!!! minato pawns , so why bring that up. Your arguments are weak!!!

obito doesnt need to breach itachi susanoo so another foolish example. susanoo can be attacked from the bottom. obito can faze into the ground and come up inside itachi susanoo. 
nice try though. Like you said danzo can outlast itachi susanoo. 

physical damage is still the best way to beat someone though, argue that. 

fact still remains chiyo isnt as mobile as hiashi nor is sakura and both only got hit about 3 times while sasori was actually trying to kill them. Why should anyone with better evasive abilities loose??
any regular jounin can break through hiruko and yes asuma is a regular jounin.
The fodders without names are fodder jounin who have no plot relevance so dont bring them up 
any jounin with plot relevance can destroy hiruko easily enough


----------



## Shiny (Aug 8, 2013)

This icegaze guy is a disgusting troll


----------



## Reznor (Aug 8, 2013)

I agree that A would beat Gaara in most circumstances. He can defeat the san like Sasuke did (chidori) or like Lee did (speed) but much better.

Gaara is a better force multiplier for armies and can beat opponents that A can't, so I wouldn't just go "A >>> Gaara gg."

Kakashi and Gai are nearly/debateable Kage. Hiashi may be in their league. Or not. Who knows. We haven't seen enough.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Reznor said:


> I agree that A would beat Gaara in most circumstances. He can defeat the san like Sasuke did (chidori) or like Lee did (speed) but much better.
> 
> Gaara is a better force multiplier for armies and can beat opponents that A can't, so I wouldn't just go "A >>> Gaara gg."
> 
> Kakashi and Gai are nearly/debateable Kage. Hiashi may be in their league. Or not. Who knows. We haven't seen enough.



and sadly we never will. there is nothing he can show that he hasnt that would make you believe he is on gai level if you dont believe he is there currently. 
Kishi has no interest in byakugan. However he has said time and time again it is not flashy but deadly 
and truth is, hiashi is deadly. Hence why i would put him nearly on current kakashi and gai level. 
I mean the guy can probably fight a jin 1 on 1 in v2 mode. he will still be able to damage them. Most people need to go all out to down such characters yet hiashi can tap them like he would anyone else and their out.


----------



## Reznor (Aug 8, 2013)

It is possible for a jin to have a bit more internal durabilty....But probably not much more. 

Naruto was able to reverse have tenketsu sealed thanks to the kyuubi, but he would have died from Kabuto's scalpelling on the Sannin battlefield.

So Hiashi might need a better hit or a second hit to take one down. Certainly no jin will just tank.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Reznor said:


> It is possible for a jin to have a bit more internal durabilty....But probably not much more.
> 
> Naruto was able to reverse have tenketsu sealed thanks to the kyuubi, but he would have died from Kabuto's scalpelling on the Sannin battlefield.
> 
> So Hiashi might need a better hit or a second hit to take one down. Certainly no jin will just tank.



actually they shouldnt 
i dont see why being a jin would make your organs strong 
like you said neji was closing his chakra points he was specifically trying to kill naruto or was he targeting his organs. 
i think hiashi will need 2 hits max to take a jin down. not saying he can take any V2 jin down however i am saying if he can hit them he wins. its that simple. that puts him high up there in my book


----------



## Nikushimi (Aug 8, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> knocking the gate is not a defensive feat, we already know it increases his strength.



When you take two objects and slam them together

and one is bent and knocked off its hinges and the other isn't

yes, it's a defensive feat for the one that knocked it off; anyone with the most general understanding of Newton's third law of motion understands this.

Also, Domu does not increase strength at all; it just hardens the body.



> Saying he blocked the nibi paw isnt impressive either. No way to know if Nibi is any stronger than sakura in terms of dishing out attacks. Bijuu though they have alot of power dont control it well this has been stated.



It's a Bijuu; even Shukaku was able to overpower Gamabunta. As strong as Kakuzu is, he used both arms to block and he still got buried.



> your hiruko can tank FRS claim is far more ridiculous refer to the thread a look at the polls you come off as way more silly than i do. So no it doesnt hurt.



The poll only exists in the first place because you're hurting.



> kakuzu best defensive feat is tanking chouji spiky meat ball, again no way to say thats impressive or that chouji attack has any where close to the piercing power or impact of satetsu, this is why i brought up chouji. So now would you say kakuzu can tank iron sand??? if so why



Because Kakuzu's body withstood FRS and a Bijuu hit even without Domu; with Domu, attacks simply didn't do anything to him at all. Swords that otherwise could cut him simply glanced off his cheek.



> chiyo used just chakra to block iron sand, the same shield kankuro can pull off btw. The hyuuga are known for using just chakra to defend against attacks. There is no evidence or reason to believe that hiashi kaiten cant casually block iron sand.



Chiyo being on a whole other level from Hiashi in general might explain it.



> Air palm is just a fraction of kaiten power that was able to push back juubi level 2 hand.



The Juubi's tail has a huge surface area and no piercing capabilities, unlike Satetsu. The acceleration and mass (and, therefore, the force it was imparting through its movement) are also impossible to quantify.



> also like i have been saying time and time again sakura only got scratched twice!!! scratched!!!!
> someone with greater evasive abilities wont be touched



Chiyo was the one controlling Sakura's movements whenever she needed help and there were quite a few moments there when Sakura would've taken more than just a scratch. Chiyo herself couldn't avoid Satetsu at all, despite being faster than Sakura.



> since you are obviously slow ill explain it again. My scale is based on the gokage. If you can compete or beat them, you are kage level. if you are a bloody kage, eg: Mei you are kage level
> if you can only beat 1 or 2 you are high jounin
> cant beat any you are jounin
> 
> simple scale.



The terms may be simple, but they are dumb and inconsistent; by that reasoning, Mei, Gaara, and possibly Oonoki aren't Kage-level. That's half the current Kage right there, which you're using as the standard for what defines a Kage in the first place; your scale is self-defeating.



> also we both know sasori cant do squat to Ei, if his only way to kill Ei is poison gas, which btw can be countered by holding your breath. sakura survived it, while being tied to it. good luck tying Ei with ropes.
> the fact that you bring up poison gas shows how desperate you are.



I didn't say Sasori would beat A; I said he does have a way to kill A with poison gas.



> Ei cannot defeat onoki, feel free to do a thread with a poll, since you like to be proven wrong this is good practice.



Oonoki is no faster than Deidara; A would Slam Jam his ass through the backboard before he could even blink. Even on the off-chance Oonoki somehow managed to flee or start outside the Raikage's range, he'd be too far away to hit the Raikage with anything. Jinton? Dodged easily. Then it becomes a battle of stamina, and guess who's losing that one (Hint: It's not the younger guy with the Bijuu-level chakra who looks like Terry Crews).



> Ei should not be able to defeat gaara. We have already seen how he handles someone so much faster than himself. He simply tanks them with his sand skin pr replaces himself when they arent looking.



And that too becomes a battle of stamina, and the Raikage comes out on top easily.



> Mei has acid mist which Ei will not be able to distinguish from regular mist. Mei can fight in her acid mist. Good luck rushing in when her mist can melt susanoo rib cage and burn sasuke



The Raikage gives zero fucks, proceeds to run right through the acid mist, and breaks Mei's neck with a swing of his arm while screaming "DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE RAIKAGE!"

And this is assuming Mei is even capable of doing anything before the Raikage uses his Sharingan-escaping Shunshin speed to cave her throat in.



> i agree with one thing being unable to damage someone, i.e minato vs sandaime raikage
> doesnt mean minato is at a lower level. However who says minato cant damage him?
> minato can block his chakra using his sealing techniques, or simply come to the same conclusion naruto did. use his attack against himself. and TADAAA!!! minato pawns , so why bring that up. Your arguments are weak!!!



1. Minato can't suppress chakra.
2. If Sandaime simply chooses not to use his own One-Finger Nukite (which can't hit Minato anyway and wouldn't be necessary to kill him even if it could), Minato has nothing to use against him except Shiki Fujin, which ends the match in a draw.
3. Naruto was only able to figure out that weakness through anecdotal evidence from Dodai and the Hachibi; the chances of Minato thinking of it otherwise are slim.
4. Naruto needed Sage Mode's sensing abilities to safely avoid the attack and follow-up with a counter; Minato does not possess Sage Mode, so this would be dangerous as hell for him.



> obito doesnt need to breach itachi susanoo so another foolish example. susanoo can be attacked from the bottom. obito can faze into the ground and come up inside itachi susanoo.
> nice try though. Like you said danzo can outlast itachi susanoo.



My point with both of those examples is that this isn't DBZ and you don't need to be capable of blowing someone up to be stronger than them.



> physical damage is still the best way to beat someone though, argue that.



I just did; winning via attrition is also a legitimate way to win, particularly if stamina is one of the opponent's weakpoints.

Poisoning, paralysis, hypnosis, radical temperature change (e.g., freezing or burning), asphyxiation... All of these are good for beating an opponent without having to damage them physically.

It's a concept commonly referred to as "hax," with which you bypass conventional resistance to damage by using something a little more I don't know..."invasive."



> fact still remains chiyo isnt as mobile as hiashi nor is sakura and both only got hit about 3 times while sasori was actually trying to kill them. Why should anyone with better evasive abilities loose??



There is no evidence that Hiashi has better evasive abilities than Sakura, who was specially trained for that sort of thing.



> any regular jounin can break through hiruko and yes asuma is a regular jounin.
> The fodders without names are fodder jounin who have no plot relevance so dont bring them up
> any jounin with plot relevance can destroy hiruko easily enough



Chiyo admitted she couldn't, despite being stronger than your average Jounin or even most elite Jounin (excluding Kakashi and Gai).


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> When you take two objects and slam them together
> 
> and one is bent and knocked off its hinges and the other isn't
> 
> ...



Obvious trolling is obvious and neg worthy
You attack the poll in my other thread cuz u buthurt
No one agrees with your sasori fanfic
The rest of your post is BS
Chiyo has no brute strength or fire power  she is a Jounin 
That doesn't stop genin chouji from being physically stronger and rolling to crush hiruko
please Niku stick to trolling itachi
Your sasori trolling is weak sauce 
It's not even legit 
Chiyo being on a different tier is your fanfic . Nothing says she is 
what can she do that hiashi can't in terms of battle ?
She was multi tasking and still only got hit once 
That shows sasori isn't much at all

Again more people agree with me on this . Feel free to do a chiyo vs hiashi thread 
See how that turns out for you
Hiashi casually grabs a thread and runs jukken through it
Damging chiyo hands and stopping her puppet show 
he can do the same to sasori btw
Even I mean even omoi cut the chakra strings !! So hiashi being able to jukken the strings is basic 

So 1 on 1 he kills chiyo . So how exactly is she on a different level 
What can she do in the battle sense that he cannot ?
all her supplementary shit matter little in BD
When we say someone is in a different tier we all mean in a battle sense 

So go on what stops hiashi from using jukken through the strings he will clearly be able to see 
or even cutting the strings as he is moving along 
Again air palm breaks hiruko
Air palm blew apart zetsu the same zetsu who tanked 2 Sakura punches 
Without being blow apart . Clearly air palm > Sakura punch > hiruko 
Clear cannon feats link them all. 

Please stick to trolling itachi you do a better job when it comes to itachi 

For the last time polls , look at them. They hurt you , I know but they are there to help you realise your wrong


----------



## HappyHalloween (Aug 8, 2013)

Hiashi is merely your average jounin level.


----------



## FairyTailisBack (Aug 8, 2013)

I still can't get over the fact how bad these poll options are.
The rankings are just pure shit.


----------



## jesusjuice69 (Aug 8, 2013)

Hiashi is only mid-elite jounin.
To think he is Kage level based on his few hyped feats is ludicrous.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Aug 8, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> I still can't get over the fact how bad these poll options are.
> The rankings are just pure shit.


 srsly 



jesusjuice69 said:


> Hiashi is only mid-elite jounin.
> .



Nah,
Aoba is mid elite/cruiser_mid elite, hiashi is clearly super_welter_elite


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> I still can't get over the fact how bad these poll options are.
> The rankings are just pure shit.



if you dont not like the ranking dont come on the thread
i explain my scale several times and it makes sense to me and others. 

terms like kage level are massively vague. Eg: if hashirama is kage level, then you cant call Ei kage level. Ei drops to genin at that point and the likes of asuma are at the academy 
however if Ei is placed at kage level, asuma can be ranked as jounin 

again this is a scale looking at only relevant characters, of course if you foolishly consider anko as a jounin when looking at relevant characters then asuma is a high jounin 

I dont see what the problem is, i think BD people just dont read well. 

Simple scale use the scale and drop comments on the match up. NOOOOOO too difficult for you, you have to complain about some BS.  Everyone has their own fucking scales. you try doing a scale and see how many agree with it. Go on!! i wanna see that thread


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 8, 2013)

Low-Kage level. Being able to deflect a Jyubi tail on his own, defeating 20 Jonin caliber shinobi in Part I with a single giant Kaiten, and being the head of the strongest Clan (minus the near extinct Senju and Uchiha) in Konoha should be enough to put him on that level. This doesn't mean he's beating Kakuzu, Deidara, or Sasori, who go from mid to high Kage level, nor does it mean he's beating Tsunade, Mei, A, Gaara, or Onoki. Nor does it mean he's beating Nidaime Mizukage, Sandaime Raikage, Mu, or Yondaime Kazekage.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Low-Kage level. Being able to deflect a Jyubi tail on his own, defeating 20 Jonin caliber shinobi in Part I with a single giant Kaiten, and being the head of the strongest Clan (minus the near extinct Senju and Uchiha) in Konoha should be enough to put him on that level. This doesn't mean he's beating Kakuzu, Deidara, or Sasori, who go from mid to high Kage level, nor does it mean he's beating Tsunade, Mei, A, Gaara, or Onoki. Nor does it mean he's beating Nidaime Mizukage, Sandaime Raikage, Mu, or Yondaime Kazekage.



i agree but why not use the ranking i provided??? jounin, high jounin or kage level 

also why mention the yondaime kazekage?? my kage scales uses the gokage. i explained my scale several times. Common we all went to school cant be that hard to use a scale, whether you agree with said scale or not. 

also while i dont think hiashi can beat deidara, based on the fact that deidara would be difficult to fight, same for kakuzu. i think he stands a much better chance of beating sasori. whose fastest attacks were reacted to by chiyo while multitasking by protecting sakura.

*my next question to all future posters is this:
what scale should i have used oh wise ones?  please educate me on this. What is the general BD NF scale used for ranking?*


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Low-Kage level. Being able to deflect a Jyubi tail on his own, defeating 20 Jonin caliber shinobi in Part I with a single giant Kaiten.



When was it ever stated or hinted that those Sand shinobi were Jonin caliber? If you actually notice, whereas the Sound nin were shown killing fodder Konoha Chunnin in the background if the Stadium`s attack, and some even stated as Jonin or around (the guys that attacked the sensei, for one) nothing is actually stated like that about the Sand shinobi. 

In fact, they are beaten by everyone in Konoha that we see. Including Kiba`s mom whom we know nothing about.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

Olympian said:


> When was it ever stated or hinted that those Sand shinobi were Jonin caliber? If you actually notice, whereas the Sound nin were shown killing fodder Konoha Chunnin in the background if the Stadium`s attack, and some even stated as Jonin or around (the guys that attacked the sensei, for one) nothing is actually stated like that about the Sand shinobi.
> 
> In fact, they are beaten by everyone in Konoha that we see. Including Kiba`s mom whom we know nothing about.



fact is 1 attack defeated 20 ninja
them being jounin or chunin matters little. Asuma defeated 9 chunnin with ease using multiple yet people bring that up likes it a valid feat. Hiashi did 20 with more ease in 1 attack. 

though i dont really counter fodder feats. sasuke defeated 1000 sound fodder. 

regardless hiashi is high jounin based on my scale. I see him as more dangerous than asuma and darui which should put you below kage level but above jounin


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> 1)prove asuma elemental attacks have more range than air palm go on ill wait. !!!



That is a silly question Icegaze, coupled with dramatic points of interrogation. I need to prove they have more range? Place panels where Kaiten is being used. Place them next to panels where Asuma`s Katon is being used.

Asuma`s Katon was able to englobe around fucking _giant Choja_. And you want to compare that as having less range than Airm palm, just because Hiashi`s airm palm *with* Neji`s deflected a giant hand. 



Icegaze said:


> 2) show me air palm or ST being countered. how does asuma avoid chakra he cant see?? you said it has been countered i need to see it.



Naruto. 



Icegaze said:


> 3) burning ash is ash like you say, before asuma ignites it. why cant hiashi air palm it away from himself. Or simply you know jump away.



Because he`s not going to guess what the attack is at randomly. If if he could, i could give that to Asuma as well and have him winning easily. In fact, it`s easier for Asuma to figure out the attacks than Hiashi. Asuma knows the Hyuuga fighting style, having seen it first hand and pretty much...that is what they all stick with. 

The sensei are more versatile. 

Point: rotation is less range and he needs to stop rotation sooner or later. Asuma got the better luxury of ranged elemental attacks.  

Point 2: yes, he can jump away, never said he couldn`t. And Asuma can spam them. 



Icegaze said:


> 4) hidan stood still so that it could hit him, burning ash is not that hard to avoid.



Hidan isn`t the only one who`s being targeted by Ash Cloud. Also, i suggest you re-read that scene. Asuma was doing the handseals _while_ targetting Hidan who was still moving around, while spinning metal knuckles in the air. 



Icegaze said:


> 5) hiashi CQC exceeds asuma, asuma needs to swing hien to kill hiashi. HIashi only need tap asuma anywhere to take the match.



And to tap, he needs to come close. Asuma doesn`t need to come as close to wear him down. 



Icegaze said:


> Tap vs swinging at someone am sure you know which is easier. Jukken has been known to cut chakra, see neji vs kidomaru. He cut through kidomaru webs, same webs that sasuke chose to use enton against saying a regular sword cant cut them.



Yeah, a regular sword. 



Icegaze said:


> 7) hien is only sharper in your mind no way to prove that it actually is. kimimaro base bones blocked samurai chakra blade, the same blade which seemed on par with sasuke chidori sword.



It`s not only on my mind. Remember that charged pencil that was aimed at Kisame? Asuma`s Hien did way better while holding back his strength. Also, as stated Futton > Raiton. There is a reason Naruto is Wind to Sasuke`s Raiton.



Icegaze said:


> what where you talking about when you mentioned giant shuriken?? also you cant prove air palm cant deflect giant shiruken. It seemed to have no problem deflecting juubi wood attacks , till neji got overwhelmed by the shear number of them.



Obito using giant Shurikens.


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> fact is 1 attack defeated 20 ninja
> them being jounin or chunin matters little. Asuma defeated 9 chunnin with ease using multiple yet people bring that up likes it a valid feat. Hiashi did 20 with more ease in 1 attack.



Your "fact", got nothing to do with what I asked for. If you want to use Asuma`s example, those guys were at least given expecific lip service by characters who were there in the battlefied and forest. They were said to not only be tracking especialists but also chunnin to jonin. 

I saw nothing of that about those Sand invaders. In fact, everyone and they`r mother took care of them.


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## PinkiePool (Aug 9, 2013)

Hiashi is fodder-with-a-name. Characters like that are a dimeadozen


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

Olympian said:


> That is a silly question Icegaze, coupled with dramatic points of interrogation. I need to prove they have more range? Place panels where Kaiten is being used. Place them next to panels where Asuma`s Katon is being used.
> 
> Asuma`s Katon was able to englobe around fucking _giant Choja_. And you want to compare that as having less range than Airm palm, just because Hiashi`s airm palm *with* Neji`s deflected a giant hand.
> 
> ...



this is why arguing with some people is vexing hiashi air palm pushed juubi tail by himself
kaiten is what hiashi used with neji to deflected juubi tail a second time. At least get your facts straight. juubi tail is as big as chouza just so you know.  Asuma fire technique was barely a fraction of chouza size. *HIashi AIR PALM technique not KAITEN , was as big as the juubi tail *

Also juubi tail is stronger than chouza, or chouji. They needed kyuubi chakra+nara amped with kyuubi chakra to hold juubi tails down. 

hiashi doesnt need to rotate OMG!!! thats only needed if attacks might come through his blind spot. Asuma attacks wont pose such a problem that he cant causally avoid them. 

*INO side stepped one of asuma attacks!!! * also claiming the sensei have more range which means you are including gai is simply very very false
gai is just as limited as hiashi is, they rely on taijutsu only. 

Please read the manga!! its clearly stated and shown jukken cuts through chakra based substances, it doesnt matter if asuma fuuton >>raiton. Jukken will cut through it and block the weapon casually. 

again sasuke has raiton and chose to amaterasu kidomaru webs, neji a genin simply releasing chakra cut those webs casually

hiashi doesnt need to come close to asuma, he can air palm spam. Ps: air palm hasnt been avoided as of yet. 
On panel it has the same speed feats as shinra tensei, do you think asuma can avoid ST???

if you think air palm is inferior to ST show me why using panels, because so far they look the same and do the same thing on  panel
which is push away the enemy or object being targeted

ash cloud and asuma wind technique have both being shown to be slower than air palm. So its asuma that will be having difficulty landing his range hits and getting close not hiashi. for the last time. Hiashi will never need to rotate against asuma. No reason for him to.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 9, 2013)

> INO side stepped one of asuma attacks!!!



Ino dah best.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

loool i know!!  @The pirate on wheels . like she saw it and said, *cant touch this!!!*
am thinking if ino can avoid such, hiashi should frown and move to the side wondering why asuma decided to waste chakra. I mean its silly to think hiashi can get hit by asuma range technique. He will see asuma performing seals, see the chakra build and then detect the attack and trajectory and somehow it still hits him????
asuma doesnt have that luxury, he wont see the chakra build up before air palm. he wont see the air palm (which is just pure chakra coming your way. normal people cant see chakra). Air palm requires no hand seals. But somehow asuma avoids it  . What alerts people to an attack is the opponent performing hand seals. what said hiashi cant wait till asuma is 5 m away then air palm him full power into a wall with the same force that pushed juubi hand which is at least 100 times asuma size and weight. Ps: zetsu bodies were said to be durable, jukken blows them up with a touch. just saying !!!

yet somehow its hiashi who would have difficulty in a ranged battle vs asuma  

only 1 ranged attack in their match has the feats of not being avoided so far, similar to ST and requires no hand seals. The other 2 have been avoided by the likes of ino. just saying


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## Ghost (Aug 9, 2013)

Comfortably above Obito ofc. Hakke solos.


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> loool i know!!  @The pirate on wheels . like she saw it and said, *cant touch this!!!*
> am thinking if ino can avoid such, hiashi should frown and move to the side wondering why asuma decided to waste chakra. I mean its silly to think hiashi can get hit by asuma range technique. He will see asuma performing seals, see the chakra build and then detect the attack and trajectory and somehow it still hits him????



What you actually mean is that In the time it took her to push Choji out of the way after Asuma deliberatly *screams at her to get out of the way* before the attack is even shot, she had Shikamaru trying to capture Asuma while he was making handseals, and she still claims she barely did it. 

Care to point me out where the side stepping is? Don`t bother, it`s not there. 

But i guess since you can`t actually prove that Air Palm got more range, *since it never did,* this is what i get. I am quite aware Hiashi will avoid some attacks, the point is that Asuma got a better luxury to worm out the opponent since he got two ranged elemental attacks to keep the bigger distance at, than Hiashi who needs to get closer in order to fully connect.


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> What alerts people to an attack is the opponent performing hand seals.



But it doesn`t say which attack is. 



Icegaze said:


> what said hiashi cant wait till asuma is 5 m away then air palm him full power into a wall



5 meters away of two Futton blades that extend at sword`s range? 



Icegaze said:


> zetsu bodies were said to be durable, jukken blows them up with a touch. just saying !!!



How many of the former rookies were blowing up Zetsu?



Icegaze said:


> yet somehow its hiashi who would have difficulty in a ranged battle vs asuma



Yes, because as you can see by how both attacks have been drawn, Air Palm was never drawn once with a bigger hit area than the Katon that hit giant Choja. Conceed and move on.



Icegaze said:


> The other 2 have been avoided by the likes of ino. just saying



That is factually wrong. One was avoided because of circumstances already lined up and made clear in the chapter and the other was avoided because Choja jumped in to cover for Choji and Ino.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

Olympian said:


> But it doesn`t say which attack is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ino avoided the attack while protecting chouji concede and move on. 
against hiashi, asuma screaming telling chouji to move out of the way, would be hiashi seeing the chakra build up. At which point the attack happens, the byakugan will allow him to detect the attack and its trajectory then all he needs to do is move. 
Please before continuing to argue with me just read chapters 195-197. Anything you see neji doing in those chapters will be done several times better by hiashi

how many former students were blowing up zetsu?? actually only 3, both have jukken the other was kiba. Chouji didnt blow up any zetsu, ino didnt, shino didnt, shikamaru didnt, sakura certainly didnt. So i dont get why you ask me that question

asuma futton sword range isnt 5m but good try, also if its 5m then hiashi can air palm him when he comes 6m close to hiashi. again i dont get your point there

fact remains that panels show air palm is far far more difficult to avoid than both of asuma attacks. 

Again i asked you a question can asuma avoid ST?? if you say no, please note air palm is shown to be just as fast. So again i dont get your point


lastly asuma screaming helped ino save chouji admitted, however against the byakugan, which will allow hiashi to see  the chakra build up, it  will scream to hiashi move out of the way. 

again byakugan allows the user to detect an attack, determine its trajectory and avoid it or alter the momentum of said attack to assist in avoiding the attack. 

again air palm actually has feats of hitting the likes of kisame, when has asuma range jutsu done that???

once more hiashi taijutsu>>asuma's that much is obvious. Please read the manga, especially the chapter where lee uses gates and says he needs gates to beat neji in cqc. 

please note base lee speed>>>>neji speed, yet lee still cannot beat neji in cqc. Rock lee needs to improve his speed and power  even more just so he can beat  a gennin neji. 

*gated rock lee >>>>>>>>>Asuma is speed ( i dare you to argue otherwise!!!) * Now that level of speed is needed in CQC to beat a *GENIN NEJI*

now hiashi and asuma are about equal in speed, so you expect asuma who is hiashi equal in speed to best hiashi in CQC *when gai and lee both agree only high speed combo can beat the jukken in CQC. *

again please read the manga the evidence is all there. 

also juubi tail is bigger and stronger than chouza, air palm was the size of it. And actually pushed juubi tail back.  *juubi level 1 tail swatted SM naruto who is durable like a fly. hiashi pushed a stronger tail in 1 attack. So go figure!
*

again i like the way you casually ignore my statement on air palm being too difficult for asuma to avoid. 

1) air palm has feats of not being avoided. 
2) on panel is shown to be just like ST
3) asuma cannot see chakra, so avoiding the attack seems unlikely 
4) asuma range techniques have *ZERO SPEED FEATS* both his range attacks are disappointingly slow
5) air palm actually has speed feats. ( so far looks just like ST!!) 

please feel free to make a thread hiashi vs asuma and include a poll lets see how many agree with me on this. i am betting 90% would agree with me

*please read chapter 85-87. Also read 195 to 197 *
those chapters explain everything from high speed taijutsu being what is needed to best the jukken in CQC to how hiashi will have no issues avoiding asuma range attacks. 
make you you read them well. Please note kakashi needed to use his sharingan to keep up with genin lee gates movement while watching from the side lines. Its that kind of speed rock lee had to attain to beat neji. Just think about it. 

This is what is required to beat genin neji : 2  who btw had improved by the time he fought kidomaru. 

i shall provide chapters dealing with air palm in a bit


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> ino avoided the attack while protecting chouji concede and move on.



This is factual bullshit. In order to start a defensive argument like this and expecting to be taken seriously i would have to argue that you:

a) can`t fucking read (since Asuma yells at her even before the attack)

b) can`t follow artwork (since in the time it took her to push a fatso out of the way we see Shikamaru trying to capture Asuma)

c) lack reading comprehention ability (since after dodging the shadows we *see* Asuma moving to Choji`s direction while finishing hand seals. in the end Asuma had to maneuver himself more, whether Ino only had to do one thing). So, in the time it took Asuma to: warm them, dodge shadows, move to Choji and finish seals = it took Ino to push the fatso out of the way and still say (explicitely written) as barely making it. 

Conclusion: she never sidestepped shit. 



Icegaze said:


> i
> 
> *gated rock lee >>>>>>>>>Asuma is speed ( i dare you to argue otherwise!!!) * Now that level of speed is needed in CQC to beat a *GENIN NEJI*
> t



How about Kakashi zipping past both Naruto and post stadium Sasuke (i.e after he gained that kind of speed throught especific training) at the rooftop?

The quote you are refering to, is badly used by yourself. Lee stated that the only thing *he had* to beat Neji was Gated speed. Not that the only thing that could beat Genin Neji was Gated speed. Take it as you will but we have examples of The Sensei being above all the rookies in part I at the very least in speed. Even Kurenai made a berserk Neji look like a Turtle. Scratch that, even Hayate was faster than him. 

Does it really work using Neji to defend Hiashi when you barely saw Neji in part II and we have no idea the gap between himself and his uncle? Especially when it was said Neji surpassed everyone of his clan?


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

Olympian said:


> This is factual bullshit. In order to start a defensive argument like this and expecting to be taken seriously i would have to argue that you:
> 
> a) can`t fucking read (since Asuma yells at her even before the attack is finished)
> 
> ...



regardless of how or why ino avoided it, fact is she did
now if ino can avoid such an attack so can hiashi. Feel free to ask anyone on the logic behind my statement. Ino knew an attack was coming because asuma held it out. hiashi will know an attack is coming because he can see the chakra build up 

case closed!!! i dont see how ino avoids asuma futton regardless of the situation, doesnt mean hiashi cant do the same. Are you going to claim ino is faster than hiashi now?

also ino in chouji body was competing with asuma in CQC, so your describing everything that happened before asuma launched his attack in order to hype asuma speed pointlessly is invalid. 

i dare you to say ino can compete with hiashi in taijutus. Even if hiashi is holding back he pawns her

, we know the gap between neji and hiashi is quite huge. Please look at what happened in the war, hiashi feats far outclass neji's so neji surpassing the clan is utter BS. 

again please feel free to do a thread asking who is stronger neji or hiashi, see how many people laugh at your question. 

hiashi is just a better, more experienced neji. So yes using neji's feats are valid. 

same way anything part 1 chouji and pre war chouji could do chouza can do better. same applies to kiba and his mum etc. 

same applies to lee and Gai

your example with kunerai blitizing neji is utter BS. i never said neji was a speed beast nor did i imply it. I did however say to defeat a jukken user in CQC you have to be quite obviously faster than them. 

same way i dont see base gai beating hiashi, however gated gai should. Even gai agrees with that assertion


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## Olympian (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> regardless of how or why ino avoided it, fact is she did
> now if ino can avoid such an attack so can hiashi. Feel free to ask anyone on the logic behind my statement. Ino knew an attack was coming because asuma held it out. hiashi will know an attack is coming because he can see the chakra build up
> 
> case closed!!!



Regardless, you sound like you are being silly. For one, we read Asuma *shouting at them about the attack* to begin with, to which she proceeds to move towards Choji. What you are doing is going "lalalalala" and not reading shit because you have zero counter argument. 

I already said Hiashi isn`t getting one shotted, it really feels like you can`t read, and to that point you are only here to act trollish and waste our time. What i say (let`s see if you can catch up now) is that Asuma got more range. As the examples show, his Katon alone got more. Therefore he can keep the distance more easily. 

Your whole post reads as if written by a fangirl (don`t know if you really are - don`t care) and is pure glibberish. You are pretty much challenging me in stuff you know you are wrong.



Icegaze said:


> your example with kunerai blitizing neji is utter BS. i never said neji was a speed beast nor did i imply it. I did however say to defeat a jukken user in CQC you have to be quite obviously faster than them.


It`s not BS, it happened. They were all faster than him. 

For example, let me ask you, what do we have to assume that the Jukken are all speed beats, to start with? Nothing much? Cool, so why bring up that "only Gated speed could take on Genin Neji" to obviously imply something that is not there?


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Regardless, you sound like you are being silly. For one, we read Asuma *shouting at them about the attack* to begin with, to which she proceeds to move towards Choji. What you are doing is going "lalalalala" and not reading shit because you have zero counter argument.
> 
> I already said Hiashi isn`t getting one shotted, it really feels like you can`t read, and to that point you are only here to act trollish and waste our time. What i say (let`s see if you can catch up now) is that Asuma got more range. As the examples show, his Katon alone got more. Therefore he can keep the distance more easily.
> 
> ...



of course he isnt getting 1 shotted at least we agree on that. Asuma having more range is fun and games but how does that stop hiashi from avoiding asuma attacks and coming in close??
Also you seem to ignore air palm range, did you check the manga??? please see where hiashi was standing compared to the juubi tail. people next to the tail where drawn as dots. So air palm has alot of range you insist on ignoring . 

i never said they arent all faster than neji. Why i said it is BS is because kurenai despite being faster than neji cannot best him in CQC because she isnt that much faster than he is. I see you dont know how to read at all 

I never said only gated speed could take on neji,  your downright slow!!!
i said gated speed is what both gai and lee felt is necessary to best genin neji in *CQC*
no one is saying that makes neji a speed beast or any jukken user for that matter, you dumb dumb....what my statement implied is that in order to best a jukken user in CQC you would have to be alot faster than them. 

asuma isnt alot faster than hiashi, therefore he wont be beating hiashi in CQC. that has been my point for a while now. Also you urself admitted hiashi isnt getting 1 shotted. so tell me this, if hiashi can avoid asuma range attacks the first time. what suddenly makes asuma range attacks faster the second time ??

if anything both asuma range attacks are most dangerous the first time, if you agree asuma cannot 1 shot him with either of them the first time he uses it. Then there is no reason to believe asuma would land an attack with them the second time or any other time.  Because by the second or third time, hiashi is closer to him than he first was.  

Also address this what stops hiashi from air palming asuma to death?? what do you think air palm range is??? 1/2 m??? again address this air palm is faster than either of asuma range attacks. 

also i like the way you completely look over air palm potential to 1 shot asuma. you causally decided to not even argue that point. i like your concession on it 

 toodles!!!

fact is in any match up at all that you decide to do, full knowledge no knowledge. 100m or 1/2m hiashi always beats asuma. SO i have no idea why you are arguing this.


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## Van Konzen (Aug 9, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> 1) jounin- darui, asuma
> 2) high jounin- kakuzu, sasori
> 3) kage level- Ei, tsunade, gaara, kakashi, gai etc
> 
> ...



one of the most underrated characters.. should be Kage level..
Just bcoz he has little showing doesnt mean he is just tonton level..
dat Air Palm of his was beyond bad ass.. one in manga and one in anime
he was shown to be Mr. One Shot with his palm strike.. stopping a blood vessel..
dat accuracy..  

I would bet that Juuken is the waterloo of Ei..
and even worse for Asuma who is a close combat fighter..
stops his tenketsu, and no more chakra blade..

I find Hiashi vs Darui an interisting and even a close match..
Darui is a Ninjutsu type of fighter, he has great potential and it would put Hiashi pressed..
but with experience, Hiashi would win this for now..

vs Sasori, I see it as a bad match up for  Sasori..
technically, Sasori cant hide with the ultimate Byakugan user around..
and dat heart of his would be very fragile.. seeing it with such blood vessel
like in a real heart means he is suscpetible to Hiashi's Hall of One Shot.. 

vs Mei.. this Babe Kage is also an underrated one.. 
and I say this one would be the most difficult for Hiashi among the three..
she's very good at Ninjutsu and should put Hiashi's Juuken checked..
unless Hiashi could snipe Mei's tenketsu while evading massive attacks,
Mei coud take this.. but fuq, Hiashi would be the luckiest guy in the world
seeing Mei with his Byakugan...


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

redfang45 said:


> one of the most underrated characters.. should be Kage level..
> Just bcoz he has little showing doesnt mean he is just tonton level..
> dat Air Palm of his was beyond bad ass.. one in manga and one in anime
> he was shown to be Mr. One Shot with his palm strike.. stopping a blood vessel..
> ...



What people don't understand is that a jukken user is the second worst person a puppeteer can face 
Secondly only to a better puppeteer. With jukken a hyuuga can easily grab a chakra string and harm the puppeteer without ever coming close. So sasori 100 puppet technique is simply a tool for hiashi to attack with. Sasori can't control all 100 perfectly we know this. We also know a hyuuga CQC skills are generally excellent. All the likes of hiashi need do is avoid one of the 100 puppets and grab a string and attack sasori remotely. The strings are connected to sasori heart canister , so a jukken strike through the string could easily GG sasori. Also as seen with kidomaru the release of chakra from a hyuuga without body movement or spinning is enough to cut through chakra . Which means sasori looses control of his puppets once they come close 
Finally puppets aren't durable at all. Which means air palm breaks them with ease . 

Extra point: chiyo using just chakra blocked satetsu twice . I find hard to believe that Kaiten can casually block satetsu seein it's properties. Point to note satetsu is no different from kidomaru web. I.e a substance embedded with chakra. Chakra gets cut through , satetsu becomes iron shavings on the ground

Edit 2: how does Mei avoid gettin hit by air palm?? Mei best asset is acid mist. If hiashi can avoid such he ain't loosing 
Mei lava technique is quite featless in terms of speed


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## Van Konzen (Aug 10, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Edit 2: how does Mei avoid gettin hit by air palm?? Mei best asset is acid mist. If hiashi can avoid such he ain't loosing
> Mei lava technique is quite featless in terms of speed



I just think Hiashi wont be able to focus on the fight, with that Byakugan and Mei's
heavenly body, his eyesight is fuqd up.. he'd bleed to death from his nose..

seriously, having two Kekkei Genkai on your arsenal, I guess
she would have plenty up her skirt to pull on spamming Ninjutsus on Hiashi..
Keeping him busy avoiding it, or even have hard time making an attack..
havent seen any Hyuuga yet countering such jutsus.. lava and boils are corrosive..
I bet she can even make them as her defense while having it on offense..

and about dat air palm.. I just dont feel like Mei a Kage level
would be a sitting duck for it..

and lastly, if I were Hiashi, I wouldnt put a scar on Mei or even a dent..
such a precious being..


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## Olympian (Aug 10, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> of course he isnt getting 1 shotted at least we agree on that. Asuma having more range is fun and games but how does that stop hiashi from avoiding asuma attacks and coming in close??



Ah, so now we agree one got more range? Cool. 

How does that stop? I didn`t said it stopped, i said it would be harder for Hiashi, since he needs to deal with longer ranged attacks and then Futton when he comes closer. Hiashi never showed once to be faster than the likes of Asuma, so i`m betting he can get hit. The possibility is simply harder for him.



Icegaze said:


> Also you seem to ignore air palm range, did you check the manga??? please see where hiashi was standing compared to the juubi tail. people next to the tail where drawn as dots. So air palm has alot of range you insist on ignoring



Of course. You know why i told you to place both panels together? Because i know that you know that pretty much nobody would claim that Air Palm bigger than the Katon that was around giant Choja. 

An Air Palm that *wasn`t* just Hiashi`s to begin with. 



Icegaze said:


> i never said they arent all faster than neji. Why i said it is BS is because kurenai despite being faster than neji cannot best him in CQC because she isnt that much faster than he is. I see you dont know how to read at all



Really? Because reading your sentence here it gives the impression you are the one who fails. 

There is no BS. Kurenai was much faster than Neji back then. That was the example i tackled and it was what was shown. Therefore, unless you refer to another Neji example, there is no BS.



Icegaze said:


> I never said only gated speed could take on neji,  your downright slow!!!
> i said gated speed is what both gai and lee felt is necessary to best genin neji in *CQC*!



Which implies *exactly* what you were trying to say. And i already explained the quote to you: Lee only had Gated speed to counter Neji. That`s it.* Lee*. Not the other characters. Lee. 



Icegaze said:


> no one is saying that makes neji a speed beast or any jukken user for that matter, you dumb dumb....what my statement implied is that in order to best a jukken user in CQC you would have to be alot faster than them



You are contradicting yourself again. Which is dumb, considering is the third time in a row. 



Icegaze said:


> asuma isnt alot faster than hiashi, therefore he wont be beating hiashi in CQC. that has been my point for a while now.



Really? What are Hiashi`s major speed examples you draw from?



Icegaze said:


> Also address this what stops hiashi from air palming asuma to death?? what do you think air palm range is??? 1/2 m??? again address this air palm is faster than either of asuma range attacks.



I already opened a can of woop ass on your stupid Ino babble. What else ya got?



Icegaze said:


> also i like the way you completely look over air palm potential to 1 shot asuma. you causally decided to not even argue that point. i like your concession on it



Because Naruto never defeat Neji when he was using Rotation. Because i never adressed that Asuma knows how the Hyuuga fight and knows that when they finish the rotation they are at the most vulnerable. 

Nope, never said it, did it?



Icegaze said:


> fact is in any match up at all that you decide to do, full knowledge no knowledge. 100m or 1/2m hiashi always beats asuma. SO i have no idea why you are arguing this.



I am arguing that you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about fangirl.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2013)

Olympian said:


> Ah, so now we agree one got more range? Cool.
> 
> How does that stop? I didn`t said it stopped, i said it would be harder for Hiashi, since he needs to deal with longer ranged attacks and then Futton when he comes closer. Hiashi never showed once to be faster than the likes of Asuma, so i`m betting he can get hit. The possibility is simply harder for him.
> 
> ...



Stopped at air palm which pushed juubi tail wasn't hiashi 
 he doesn't read the manga at all !! Confuses Kaiten with air palm  X10000. Can anyone please take their time to educate this person arguing blind please. Go read the chapter neji died. Read all 17 pgs twice seems like you need to
Please go do that 
Address air palm being faster thus harder to dodge .  Please read the manga first though . Refresh your memory and all

Please note If you could read its the 4 times I have mentioned that it is faster than both asuma range jutsu . Thus it's air palm that would be hard to dodge 
Not ABSOLUTELY speed feats less range jutsu . Both have hit no one trying to avoid it . both have less impressive feats than what hiashi air palm did 
And both are slower because they require handseals . Please note ash cloud is particularly slow because asuma needs to spread the ash first then ignite it. 
A simple air palm at neji level keeps the ash away from hiashi

So next person!! This one doesn't read the manga at all. neji rotation got broken into by naruto because neji started rotating too late
Also naruto chakra far far exceeds neji's hence why neji Kaiten failed ,  please read on Kaiten as well. Please someone read it to him


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## Matty (Mar 20, 2016)

I think you can make the claim for him being kage level. At worst he's the highest of the elite jounin. Dude air palmed the juubi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 20, 2016)

Matty you gotta stop getting drunk and reviving threads buddy.


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## Matty (Mar 20, 2016)

Completely sober. I just figured it would be a fresh one!


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 20, 2016)

I'd say he's at a High Jonin level.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Lol I don't mind the revival 

Falls in line with current discussions on what it takes to be kage level so to speak 

I can't see every kage being able to replicate what hiashi did to juubi tail twice


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## Matty (Mar 20, 2016)

Thats what I figurer. Plus there are way too many repeat threads. Might as well revisit the topic. I think Low Kage would be a good spot for him.

Byakugan is highly underrated as are the hyuuga in general


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 21, 2016)

Hiashi is like Sasuke's father they are low end kage tier characters that were deflated for the purpose of plot , meaning they had no reasoning to engage in one on one fights to show their prowess and also were weaker than other Kage levels  who were able to effectively play hero


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## Matty (Mar 21, 2016)

Lol Icegaze has your opinion on Sasori and Kakuzu being high jonin changed?!


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