# Tsunade Senju vs 4th Raikage (A4)



## Shazam (Jun 5, 2021)

Knowledge: Manga
IC
25 Meters


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## Shazam (Jun 5, 2021)

Bump


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## FlamingRain (Jun 5, 2021)

Tsunade mitigates Ay's strength with her regeneration and his speed with her summons.

She eventually knocks him out after shrinking the available space to move too much.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 5, 2021)

Blitz

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 5, 2021)

Without PIS
She looses her head off the bat 
But somehow If kishi had to write it A4 would forget he can make his raiton sharp enough to cut off limbs and keep going for stupid punches which would get him no where

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Shazam (Jun 5, 2021)

MaruUchiha said:


> Blitz



I dont think Tsunade can blitz him but let's discuss your reason

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7 | Winner 2


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## Nali (Jun 5, 2021)

he blitz but she regenerates and resists his attack with her brute strength which incidentally surpasses his according to madara himself.
Then she blocks him by his arm and Just kills him. raikage has a very strong body but tsunade smashed the rib cage of madara's susanoo with a single blow, so he could not realistically survive.
katsuyu is not necessary.

moreover, that the raikage hits her with a punch or a slash would not change anything. tsunade would survive in any case. the manga has already proved it. she took a yasaka magatama, which Is very sharp, head on and came out unscathed.

In tsunade's own words: 

"You could slash me away all you want but I can't be killed"  
(Naruto manga, chapter 169)

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shazam (Jun 6, 2021)

Bump


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## dabi (Jun 7, 2021)

Ay blitzes the shit out of this overrated grandma.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Lewd 1


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## Beyonce (Jun 7, 2021)

IC guarantees Tsunade’s win. Ei gets close, Tsunade knocks his head clean off

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Sage King (Jun 7, 2021)

Ay 4 slaughters. MS Sasuke had to use Susanoo to deal with his speed. Unlike Sasuke, Tsunade doesn't have Susanoo
He chops her in half like what he did to gyuki's horn using lateral bolt of pain.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Draghensalk (Jun 7, 2021)

A4 opens a hole in his body blitzing her and Tsunade regenerates but he continue to opens holes one after another and she die trying to regenerate his open heart

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## sabre320 (Jun 7, 2021)

Ei has slicing attacks that can cut off the hachibis horn and still have enough force behind them to plant its face into the ground....the horn is multiple times a humans size, ei has speed enough to pressure kcm users and gain minatos praise. Ei also has complete knowledge of tsunades abilities and knows the importance of going for the kill.

In summary ei has speed which tsunade has no hope of reacting to in v2 blitz which caught even ftg prepped minato by surprise, he has a slicing attack which can cleave her in two multiple times over in the horn slicer, with knowledge on tsunades insane regen endurance and regen he knows he must finish it asap as anything else is a losing battle and thats exactly what he will do a v2 blitz to decapitate her which she really has no defense against at this distance.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade mitigates Ay's strength with her regeneration and his speed with her summons.
> 
> She eventually knocks him out after shrinking the available space to move too much.


I am wondering how katsuyu mitigated manda speed 
Can you tell me


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## Nali (Jun 8, 2021)

Tsunade can NOT be sliced at all while creation rebirth - strenght of a hundred technique is active. She already tanked three yasaga magatama that had nearly passed the giant stone golem and gaara's sand shield.
her body's cells regenerate too quickly for raikage to shred her. it's really too optimistic to think such a thing in the face of the demonstrations that are in the manga. 
even Madara only managed to cut her when the technique was over and yet she survived.
also tsunade knows raikage is super fast with his lightning armor, she would use her strenght to plate him and then counterattack.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5 | Kage 5 | Optimistic 2


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## FlamingRain (Jun 8, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> I am wondering how katsuyu mitigated manda speed
> Can you tell me



Literally getting in the way upon dividing.


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## Speedyamell (Jun 8, 2021)

Raikage charges up to V2 > Tsunade releases byakugō and sends chakra through her body to enhance her durability, and to her feet to strengthen her stance > Raikage blitzes > Tsunade resists the force, ignores the damage and oneshots.
*If raikage manages to escape at the end and retreats*
> Katsuyu comes out and covers the battlefield > raikage is now wary of charging directly and has a thousand acid spitting slugs to worry about > his attention is divided > tsunade smashes the ground and sends raikage into the air > and then oneshots him

Reactions: Like 2 | Kage 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Literally getting in the way upon dividing.


It’s strange would have thought this would be useful in slowing down or stopping manda though
You know a hilariously slower larger snake than A4


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## FlamingRain (Jun 8, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> It’s strange would have thought this would be useful in slowing down or stopping manda though
> You know a hilariously slower larger snake than A4


When? Katsuyu started with acid and Manda never went near her again after Gamabunta intercepted him.

People act like that was some drawn out battle where they had all sorts of opportunities to try things but that shit was over quick.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> When? Katsuyu started with acid and Manda never went near her again after Gamabunta intercepted him.
> 
> People act like that was some drawn out battle where they had all sorts of opportunities to try things but that shit was over quick.


Why would it be drawn out here though ?
A4 knows she can regen 
A4 is comically faster 
This fight would never be drawn out to begin with


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## Rajeman (Jun 8, 2021)

Tsunade punches him to death


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## FlamingRain (Jun 8, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Why would it be drawn out here though ?



I pointed out that it wasn't a drawn-out fight because you noted that she didn't do it against Manda. The fight was so short she never needed to.



MHA massive fan said:


> A4 knows she can regen
> A4 is comically faster



Okay. It still won't be a quick fight.


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## sy6up (Jun 8, 2021)

What good speed feats does Tsunade have?


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## Draghensalk (Jun 8, 2021)

*A4 BATISTA BOMB GG TSUNADE WOULD FAIL 20 KILOMETERS UNDER THE EARTH*

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## sy6up (Jun 8, 2021)

Draghensalk said:


> *A4 BATISTA BOMB GG TSUNADE WOULD FAIL 20 KILOMETERS UNDER THE EARTH*


Lol


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## Nali (Jun 8, 2021)

Draghensalk said:


> *A4 BATISTA BOMB GG TSUNADE WOULD FAIL 20 KILOMETERS UNDER THE EARTH*


She would still able to regenerate herself

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 8, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> I pointed out that it wasn't a drawn-out fight because you noted that she didn't do it against Manda. The fight was so short she never needed to.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. It still won't be a quick fight.


I assume it won’t be a quick fight because you believe A4 can’t cut her head off or that she can regrow one ?


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## Shazam (Jun 8, 2021)

sy6up said:


> What good speed feats does Tsunade have?



Her best showing is a coordination feat with Lightened A4 and Onoki

Other than that she outpaced Mei's hand seals, traveling what seemed to be a few dozen meters before her jutsu could get off

Reactions: Like 1


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## sy6up (Jun 8, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Her best showing is a coordination feat with Lightened A4 and Onoki
> 
> Other than that she outpaced Mei's hand seals, traveling what seemed to be a few dozen meters before her jutsu could get off


Mei’s hand signs scale nowhere. So ig relative to Raikage?


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## Shazam (Jun 8, 2021)

sy6up said:


> Mei’s hand signs scale nowhere. So ig relative to Raikage?



Mei is a kage. Who most consider around mid tier. She is also a primary ninjutsu casting shinobi. Meaning what makes her mid tier kage level is her ability to get off ninjutsu. 

The fact that Tsunade can cover a few dozen meters before she can finish her hand seals is actually quite meaningful.


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## sy6up (Jun 8, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Mei is a kage


I don’t care if she’s a Kage, she’s still ass.


Shazam said:


> Who most consider around mid tier. She is also a primary ninjutsu casting shinobi. Meaning what makes her mid tier kage level is her ability to get off ninjutsu.


But arguable the weakest Hokage can put speed her?


Shazam said:


> The fact that Tsunade can cover a few dozen meters before she can finish her hand seals is actually quite meaningful.


where did you get a few dozen meters from?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Shazam (Jun 8, 2021)

sy6up said:


> I don’t care if she’s a Kage, she’s still ass.



Well, that's just your opinion bro. 



sy6up said:


> But arguable the weakest Hokage can put speed her?



...make a point please 




sy6up said:


> where did you get a few dozen meters from?



Check the scan. It's my estimation based in the size of the other characters

Reactions: Like 1


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## sy6up (Jun 8, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Well, that's just your opinion bro.


Yeah.


Shazam said:


> ...make a point please


I’m not debating you.


Shazam said:


> Check the scan. It's my estimation based in the size of the other characters


I don’t do that calc shit. But post the scan anyways.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 8, 2021)

Raikage electro'stuns tsunade as he ddt's her into a crater
Then, while her bonesu r realigning,  he rai'ton Gian s her deeper into it and finishes w' the attack he used on gyūki

Reactions: Kage 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1


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## Steven (Jun 9, 2021)

Tsunade stomps this fodder

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Impulse (Jun 9, 2021)

It could go either way Raikage has much superior speed

While Tsunade has regen and great durability

Tsunade or Raikage can win high/extreme difficulty


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## Troyse22 (Jun 9, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Knowledge: Manga
> IC
> 25 Meters


She gets blitzed, she can't tag him, and even if she does he absorbs it. He scales close to his father who chewed up and spit out a FRS

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Nali (Jun 9, 2021)

even if he blitzes she regenerates. And raikage can't absorb shit so...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Yoshibottter (Jun 9, 2021)

A4 is faster than Tsunade and even though Tsunade is strong A4 can hurt her. A4 wins via Lightning Cloak. If Creation Rebirth is on she wins however because she will just regen damage easy.


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## Shazam (Jun 9, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> She gets blitzed, she can't tag him, and even if she does he absorbs it. He scales close to his father who chewed up and spit out a FRS



So you're telling me you wank/overrate A4? Cool

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nali (Jun 9, 2021)

I don't know why people think raikage can kill her when she tanked a yasaka magatama head on as if it were nothing.

blitzing someone who can regenerate from any damage is useless in itself, indeed it could prove counterproductive.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yoshibottter (Jun 9, 2021)

Nali said:


> I don't know why people think raikage can kill her when she tanked a yasaka magatama head on as if it were nothing.
> 
> blitzing someone who can regenerate from any damage is useless in itself, indeed it could prove counterproductive.


It depends if Creation Rebirth is activated before A4 can blitz her head off. If its Creation Rebirth Tsunade vs Lightning Cloak A4. If Creation Rebirth is activated before match Tsunade wins. If Creation Rebirth is not activated than she fails. Creation Rebirth Tsunade tanked a Susanoo sword. It can tank A4's punches in Creation Rebirth easily.


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## Nali (Jun 9, 2021)

She just needs to release the byakugou Seal to activate creation rebirth.


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## Yoshibottter (Jun 9, 2021)

I know but, A4 is fast. A4 might blitz her before she can activate the seal.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jun 9, 2021)

Could go either way with it being extreme diff


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 9, 2021)

Not much Tsunade can do.

Can’t regenerate a head especially considering the seal responsible for her healing is there which also gets destroyed.

Even while moving toward Ei at high speed and arm guarding KCM Naruto couldn’t prevent being pinballed back at high velocity by only V1 A. V2 A smacks Tsunade around pretty easily.

She’s far less likely to survive what was considered lethal to KCM Naruto, who is considerably more durable than Tsunade tanking the likes of lava punches and successive V2 claws/coral palm with superficial wounds. Tsunade being notably wounded by every attack that touched her isn’t an indication she can withstand the power of his full speed punch hyped to kill KCM Naruto or Bijuu shredding lightning chop.

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## Danisor (Jun 9, 2021)

Unless Tsunade can survive losing getting beheaded and then somehow grow it back, I'd back up A.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 9, 2021)

Danisor said:


> Unless Tsunade can survive losing getting beheaded and then somehow grow it back, I'd back up A.


Thread 
The only argument a Sannin fan could use is 5 clones failed to behead her 

though that’s more symptomatic of Madara wanting to simply break down her will to carry on than outright kill her 

i would say anything other than A4 going for beheading would result in him loosing

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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 9, 2021)

To be fair even Ay thought it was more likely that she would tire out instead of being outright killed. On top of this she did Survive being catapulted by Mabui's jutsu in base. Plus Ay doesn't insta activate his shroud which gives her plenty of time to activate Byakugou.

Reactions: Like 2


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## FlamingRain (Jun 9, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> To be fair even Ay thought it was more likely that she would tire out instead of being outright killed. On top of this she did Survive being catapulted by Mabui's jutsu in base. Plus Ay doesn't insta activate his shroud which gives her plenty of time to activate Byakugou.



The Susano'o squad knew about Tsunade's regeneration just like Ay did and Ay literally has no method of delivering damage the Susano'o squad did not also have. If Ay saw Tsunade taking attacks from them and only worried about her tiring herself out he will similarly conclude that tiring her out is all _he_ can do (and we should too).

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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 9, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> The Susano'o squad knew about Tsunade's regeneration just like Ay did and Ay literally has no method of delivering damage the Susano'o squad did not also have. If Ay saw Tsunade taking attacks from them and only worried about her tiring herself out he will similarly conclude that tiring her out is all _he_ can do.


I wholeheartedly agree. Not to mention Tsunade's Byakugou strikes were able to shatter Madara's Susanoo ribcage while even something like Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan left hardly a mark. This means damaging him would be likely hardly an issue. Overpowering her is also out of the question and sticking a hand through her likely ends in his severe injury or death since he would effectively losing his chance to escape. Ay didn't say as long as she protects her head she won't die he just said even if you can't die you can still tire basically. So whatever he saw during that time probably lead him to that statement. All of Ay's moves pretty much leave him in punching range and against many other people it would be great but not against someone who can overpower him, take a lot of punishment, heal from anything he could dish out, and hurt him without difficulty. Her lack of severe injury against something like a point blank magatama says lots about her durability and healing.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I wholeheartedly agree. Not to mention Tsunade's Byakugou strikes were able to shatter Madara's Susanoo ribcage while even something like Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan left hardly a mark. This means damaging him would be likely hardly an issue. Overpowering her is also out of the question and sticking a hand through her likely ends in his severe injury or death since he would effectively losing his chance to escape. Ay didn't say as long as she protects her head she won't die he just said even if you can't die you can still tire basically. So whatever he saw during that time probably lead him to that statement. All of Ay's moves pretty much leave him in punching range and against many other people it would be great but not against someone who can overpower him, take a lot of punishment, heal from anything he could dish out, and hurt him without difficulty. Her lack of severe injury against something like a point blank magatama says lots about her durability and healing.


Some holes in the logic though
1. A4 will never attempt to overpower her . He is keenly aware she is stronger 
2. Susanoo were trading blows with Tsunade because they can’t die and was no risk to damage to them at all. Madara opting for stabs that he already knows she can heal from proves that 

3. It also implies since A4 was the only one who got caught in genjutsu that the others somehow have a defence against it . Despite A4 being the only one who actually thought his speed made it unlikely from him to be caught . Clearly another indication Madara was doing more of will breaking than out right going to kill them . The very fact that he opts to use susanoo and only susanoo once again shows this . As moukton to suppress chakra or outer path rods would have been far more effective at stopping Tsunade

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2021)

Madara’s clones tried to turn Mei into a meat skewer and Ay into a pincushion yet people insist they weren’t trying to kill the Kage.

As if ally deaths don't work as a tool to break someone's will.

Reactions: Winner 5 | Kage 1


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## Nali (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> To be fair even Ay thought it was more likely that she would tire out instead of being outright killed. On top of this she did Survive being catapulted by Mabui's jutsu in base. Plus Ay doesn't insta activate his shroud which gives her plenty of time to activate Byakugou.


that's right, people don't believe that she can't die in any way when she uses that technique

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

Onoki and the five Kage "It's not 5 to 1, it's 25 to 5, we'll guard each other's backs and coordinate our attacks"

We then go on to see them do that

Then the hamfisted ape Sannin squad come in and are like "HAHA 5 TO 1 AGAINST FULL KI PS WIELDING MADARA GO BRR"

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

Kisame has the best non god tier Regen in the manga per feats, and better durability feats than Tsunade.

Watch how fast these same people who say Tsunade won't die to A4 also say that Kisame gets one shotted and vaporized.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 4 | Optimistic 2


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## Nali (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Some holes in the logic though
> 1. A4 will never attempt to overpower her . He is keenly aware she is stronger
> 2. Susanoo were trading blows with Tsunade because they can’t die and was no risk to damage to them at all. Madara opting for stabs that he already knows she can heal from proves that
> 
> 3. It also implies since A4 was the only one who got caught in genjutsu that the others somehow have a defence against it . Despite A4 being the only one who actually thought his speed made it unlikely from him to be caught . Clearly another indication Madara was doing more of will breaking than out right going to kill them . The very fact that he opts to use susanoo and only susanoo once again shows this . As moukton to suppress chakra or outer path rods would have been far more effective at stopping Tsunade


stop the fraud. madara himself declares in a loud voice that he would have killed tsunade as the granddaughter of hashirama and in fact he hits her several times lethally and yet always fails

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Nali (Jun 10, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame has the best non god tier Regen in the manga per feats, and better durability feats than Tsunade.
> 
> Watch how fast these same people who say Tsunade won't die to A4 also say that Kisame gets one shotted and vaporized.


yet in the databook kishimoto points out that the tsunade's regenerating technique  is "the ultimate regeneration technique"


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## FlamingRain (Jun 10, 2021)

Kisame can die to a freaking pencil he ain't shit.

Reactions: Funny 4 | Kage 5


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> . A4 will never attempt to overpower her . He is keenly aware she is stronger


Considering he has to get close with lariat and actually grab her to use his other special moves he still leaves himself open to be overpowered. Him being aware of her strength doesn't mean it still doesn't become a problem for him.


MHA massive fan said:


> 2. Susanoo were trading blows with Tsunade because they can’t die and was no risk to damage to them at all. Madara opting for stabs that he already knows she can heal from proves that


She was apparently at little risk for dying as well as indicated by Ay's statement and was handling her clones pretty well considering she had split them up and knocked some over. Madara obviously made multiple attempts on her life despite her regeneration anyways. He never stopped trying regardless of her regeneration.


MHA massive fan said:


> 3. It also implies since A4 was the only one who got caught in genjutsu that the others somehow have a defence against it . Despite A4 being the only one who actually thought his speed made it unlikely from him to be caught . Clearly another indication Madara was doing more of will breaking than out right going to kill them .


I disagree considering even after being genjutsu'd he was nearly skewered if not for Ohnoki. Even during that skirmish he still made attempts on Mei and Gaara's lives as well. Ay being caught doesn't say much about the others considering he left himself open for a split second had he not been worried about Tsunade I doubt he would have been caught as well considering. 


MHA massive fan said:


> The very fact that he opts to use susanoo and only susanoo once again shows this . As moukton to suppress chakra or outer path rods would have been far more effective at stopping Tsunade


What makes you think she would easily be caught by Mokuton she has intimate knowledge on it. The rods can also be overpowered and removed and considering she was able to survive bisection those rods wouldn't offer enough punishment to fully neutralize her unless he totally pincushions her. Also even without chakra she is still crazy strong.


Nali said:


> that's right, people don't believe that she can't die in any way when she uses that technique


I mean I believe she can still die but the jutsu capable of doing so are so few in number and has to outright insta kill her or it may not be enough.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 10, 2021)

Tsunade extreme diff.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Considering he has to get close with lariat and actually grab her to use his other special moves he still leaves himself open to be overpowered. Him being aware of her strength doesn't mean it still doesn't become a problem for him.


This is straight dishonest he need not use any special move. Simply make his hand sharp. The same hand that chopped off his own arm and Hachibi horn . He doesn’t need to grab her at all . He is trying to behead her not play with her boob 


SakuraLover16 said:


> She was apparently at little risk for dying as well as indicated by Ay's statement and was handling her clones pretty well considering she had split them up and knocked some over. Madara obviously made multiple attempts on her life despite her regeneration anyways. He never stopped trying regardless of her regeneration.


Yes Madara wanted to wear her down . Unless the claim is then she is immune to genjutsu as she wasn’t caught . Clearly is invulnerable to chakra rods as it wasn’t used , can tank all moukton as lord knows that also wasn’t used etc . Choosing to fight your enemy in a way to play with them is what Madara was going for . J mean his clones did less to A4 than a noob Ms sasuke did to A4 


SakuraLover16 said:


> I disagree considering even after being genjutsu'd he was nearly skewered if not for Ohnoki. Even during that skirmish he still made attempts on Mei and Gaara's lives as well. Ay being caught doesn't say much about the others considering he left himself open for a split second had he not been worried about Tsunade I doubt he would have been caught as well considering.


Ok 


SakuraLover16 said:


> What makes you think she would easily be caught by Mokuton she has intimate knowledge on it. The rods can also be overpowered and removed and considering she was able to survive bisection those rods wouldn't offer enough punishment to fully neutralize her unless he totally pincushions her. Also even without chakra she is still crazy strong.


The same reason she was actually caught in moukton in the very same manga . Or do you not recall her being put to sleep by flower tree world ? 


SakuraLover16 said:


> I mean I believe she can still die but the jutsu capable of doing so are so few in number and has to outright insta kill her or it may not be enough.


No issues with the believe however it lacks feats 
As such you must also hold said belief for all techniques described to do things they haven’t shown 

else double standards


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> This is straight dishonest he need not use any special move. Simply make his hand sharp. The same hand that chopped off his own arm and Hachibi horn . He doesn’t need to grab her at all . He is trying to behead her not play with her boob


What is he capable of doing that the Madara clones aren't other than move faster? The fact of the matter is he isn't doing anything that they aren't capable of doing as well. In fact he was nearly killed by the same swords Tsunade was impaled with meaning that him using it to cut his own arm off doesn't mean as much as you think it does. Okay let's say that she is 100% going to die if her head is cut off even with Byakugou. If the weakness of her technique is that obvious and her head is something that she knows she has to protect above all else why wouldn't she guard it? Also why wouldn't Byakugou heal the damage to her neck as whatever is slicing it passes through? Hell she might even purposefully leave an opening so she has a chance to counterattack.


MHA massive fan said:


> Yes Madara wanted to wear her down . Unless the claim is then she is immune to genjutsu as she wasn’t caught . Clearly is invulnerable to chakra rods as it wasn’t used , can tank all moukton as lord knows that also wasn’t used etc . Choosing to fight your enemy in a way to play with them is what Madara was going for . J mean his clones did less to A4 than a noob Ms sasuke did to A4


Yeah don't strawman me and address what I've said. 

1. No one claimed she was immune to it nor have I seen any suggestion of such in this thread. Does this mean that Mei, Gaara, and Ohnoki were immune as well or did they fight knowing that it was a tool Madara had in his possession. As we have seen with Ay his speed makes him less likely to be caught not immune. So what's the difference between him employing a strategy that worked for the most part compared to anyone else? The answer is nothing the others may not have been caught because they didn't leave an opening for genjutsu to be used.

2. No one claimed she was immune to chakra rods just that it she was stabbed by one that she was capable of pulling it out. So even if they were used it wouldn't be the be all end all of the battle.

3. Again strawmaning is a sign that you can't come up with a way to attack my actual argument. She has intimate knowledge on woodstyle it's why she knew right away what jutsu Madara was using. Saying she wouldn't be easily caught isn't the same as saying she is immune.

A4 was about to be killed by Madara while A4 was about to kill Sasuke. Also let's not pretend that Amateratsu is just some regular attack not to mention Ay purposefully chose to be injured by Sasuke's Amateratsu.


MHA massive fan said:


> The same reason she was actually caught in moukton in the very same manga . Or do you not recall her being put to sleep by flower tree world ?


Flowering tree world doesn't speak for all woodstyle jutsu and you know it. Not only that but Ohnoki was the most cut out to deal with flowering tree world. Unless you think Madara's going to keep using a jutsu that has already been countered before. That's like saying because I couldn't counter Kirin that I also can't deal with Chidori because they are both lightning style.


MHA massive fan said:


> issues with the believe however it lacks feats
> As such you must also hold said belief for all techniques described to do things they haven’t shown
> 
> else double standards


Amateratsu lacks feats of killing anyone does that mean it can't? Kisame didn't die from Hirodura does that mean Moegi survives it as well because it hasn't been shown killing anyone?

When you don't have feats you use portrayal and the description of the jutsu. Byakugou has been stated to be able to regenerate limbs and organs from the user themselves. It is also hailed as the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu and chakra control. Why would I hold so much doubt about a jutsu when the user has regenerated pulverized organs and her spine it makes very little sense. Also it's not like Boruto doesn't also lend evidence to a majority of the things people talk about where Byakugou is concerned.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> What is he capable of doing that the Madara clones aren't other than move faster? The fact of the matter is he isn't doing anything that they aren't capable of doing as well. In fact he was nearly killed by the same swords Tsunade was impaled with meaning that him using it to cut his own arm off doesn't mean as much as you think it does. Okay let's say that she is 100% going to die if her head is cut off even with Byakugou. If the weakness of her technique is that obvious and her head is something that she knows she has to protect above all else why wouldn't she guard it? Also why wouldn't Byakugou heal the damage to her neck as whatever is slicing it passes through? Hell she might even purposefully leave an opening so she has a chance to counterattack.
> 
> Yeah don't strawman me and address what I've said.
> 
> ...


But not regrowing a head. Do you agree on this 

or are you saying because Madara didn’t behead tsunade it’s impossible for anyone weaker to do so 

because I can spin this round noob sasuke made A4 loose a hand. So unless your thought process is noob sasuke > 5 susanoo clones 

then not sure why your post is so long

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Nali (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> But not regrowing a head. Do you agree on this
> 
> or are you saying because Madara didn’t behead tsunade it’s impossible for anyone weaker to do so
> 
> ...


Stop the fraud. madara did not behead her because he too understood that he could not kill her. wake up honey.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

Nali said:


> Stop the fraud. madara did not behead her because he too understood that he could not kill her. wake up honey.


Can I add you to my forum wives 
You are simply too

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Disagree 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Kisame can die to a freaking pencil he ain't shit.



"If that hit me even I would get a hole in me"

Turrin camp - "Kisame said that pencil almost vaporized him in a Jinton like fashion"






Nali said:


> yet in the databook kishimoto points out that the tsunade's regenerating technique  is "the ultimate regeneration technique"



Primary source>secondary source

Kisame has the best (non god tier) Regen feats in the manga bar NONE.

We see Kisame practically bisected and his organs obliterated Regen and stand on his feet in a single panel. He regenerated grievous, mortal wounds faster than Tsunade has healed scratches.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

Everyone - "A4 blitzes the Mangekyo, outpaced Amaterasu and completely exited Sasukes vision"

Sannin camp - "yeah but Tsunade is a Sannin, and even though she has both piss poor mental and physical reactions relative to MS Sasuke, she catches A4s hands, restrains him, breaks every bone in his body and vaporizes him with a punch before he can react"


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> But not regrowing a head. Do you agree on this


Not necessarily because it has been shown in Boruto to be fully possible to do so. However my argument will never hinge on whether or not she can regrow a head in the first place. It's just foolish to believe that if that was her weakness she wouldn't know or be capable of protecting her head in the first place.


MHA massive fan said:


> or are you saying because Madara didn’t behead tsunade it’s impossible for anyone weaker to do so


I didn't say that however to believe Madara wouldn't be serious about killing Tsunade would be outright false considering he said he would do so for the simple fact that she was Hashirama's offspring and actually made attempts on her life multiple times even when he was disappearing because Edo Tensei was released. So our only options are: A. He never tried (unlikely he wanted her dead, knew she could regenerate, she was the medic, and still tried despite her regeneration being active), B. She never gave him the chance (also a a little unlikely but not as much as A he would have at the minimum thought of it as one of the first things to do), C. He did but she healed before it could become unattached (likely because Byakugou starts healing the instant an injury is made as long as the wound isn't obstructed, D. Regenerated a head (very unlikely but not impossible due to Boruto. However I'd never use this to win an argument anyhow), E. The other Kage interfered with the attempt (This is a possibility however while she was fighting the Raikage was sure that she would more likely tire out than die while she was fighting on her own)


MHA massive fan said:


> because I can spin this round noob sasuke made A4 loose a hand. So unless your thought process is noob sasuke > 5 susanoo clones


I've adressed that in my previous post already feel free to read it.


MHA massive fan said:


> then not sure why your post is so long


It's because you tried to strawman me. If you weren't going to take the time to read why bother replying to me in the first place?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Not necessarily because it has been shown in Boruto to be fully possible to do so.


Where has Byakuyo shown this in Boruto ? Did Sakura do it in the recent chapter or something ? I mean if true then I concede immediately 


SakuraLover16 said:


> However my argument will never hinge on whether or not she can regrow a head in the first place. It's just foolish to believe that if that was her weakness she wouldn't know or be capable of protecting her head in the first place.


She does know why would she. She said I can regrow limbs and organs she never said I can regrow my head or my full body 


SakuraLover16 said:


> I didn't say that however to believe Madara wouldn't be serious about killing Tsunade would be outright false


And yet we know he was pussy footing till he got serious and used PS. you can’t say Madara intended to kill her and was fighting seriously when we know he was holding back his full abilities . 


SakuraLover16 said:


> considering he said he would do so for the simple fact that she was Hashirama's offspring and actually made attempts on her life multiple times even when he was disappearing because Edo Tensei was released. So our only options are: A. He never tried (unlikely he wanted her dead, knew she could regenerate, she was the medic, and still tried despite her regeneration being active), B. She never gave him the chance (also a a little unlikely but not as much as A he would have at the minimum thought of it as one of the first things to do), C. He did but she healed before it could become unattached (likely because Byakugou starts healing the instant an injury is made as long as the wound isn't obstructed, D. Regenerated a head (very unlikely but not impossible due to Boruto. However I'd never use this to win an argument anyhow), E. The other Kage interfered with the attempt (This is a possibility however while she was fighting the Raikage was sure that she would more likely tire out than die while she was fighting on her own)
> 
> I've adressed that in my previous post already feel free to read it.
> 
> It's because you tried to strawman me. If you weren't going to take the time to read why bother replying to me in the first place?


See above


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Not necessarily because it has been shown in Boruto to be fully possible to do so. However my argument will never hinge on whether or not she can regrow a head in the first place. It's just foolish to believe that if that was her weakness she wouldn't know or be capable of protecting her head in the first place.
> 
> I didn't say that however to believe Madara wouldn't be serious about killing Tsunade would be outright false considering he said he would do so for the simple fact that she was Hashirama's offspring and actually made attempts on her life multiple times even when he was disappearing because Edo Tensei was released. So our only options are: A. He never tried (unlikely he wanted her dead, knew she could regenerate, she was the medic, and still tried despite her regeneration being active), B. She never gave him the chance (also a a little unlikely but not as much as A he would have at the minimum thought of it as one of the first things to do), C. He did but she healed before it could become unattached (likely because Byakugou starts healing the instant an injury is made as long as the wound isn't obstructed, D. Regenerated a head (very unlikely but not impossible due to Boruto. However I'd never use this to win an argument anyhow), E. The other Kage interfered with the attempt (This is a possibility however while she was fighting the Raikage was sure that she would more likely tire out than die while she was fighting on her own)
> 
> ...



Was possible pre Boruto as Kabuto turned Orochimarus head to mush and Oro Oral rebirthed it.

The feats just don't transfer to Tsunade


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## Impulse (Jun 10, 2021)

Tsunade can regrow her head 

What?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 10, 2021)

Ay4 can blitz Tsunade, but he can't kill Tsunade. It ultimately comes down to (effective) stamina, Tsunade outlasts Ay4 and murders him.

Either that or Tsunade figures out Ay4's attack pattern one time or another and puts her fist in the right spot.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

Impulse785 said:


> Tsunade can regrow her head
> 
> What?



If Oro can do it I guess  

After all they share a title

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

Tsunade: *Attacks in Tandem with a lightened A4 appearing after Madara has barely moved two feet*

Supposedly piss poor mental and physical reactions no one is saying she is a speedster but dang the downplay.


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Tsunade: *Attacks in Tandem with a lightened A4 appearing after Madara has barely moved two feet*
> 
> Supposedly piss poor mental and physical reactions no one is saying she is a speedster but dang the downplay.



Can't have it both ways.

Either assert she's just as fast as lightened ay or she's slow.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nali (Jun 10, 2021)

if madara could kill her by cutting off her head then why didn't he?
why even at the end when she no longer had the byakugou he cut her at the waist?
this means that he tried to behead her but he failed.


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## Azula (Jun 10, 2021)

A4 will get the first hit but Tsunade grabs him and ends him with one hit.


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## Impulse (Jun 10, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> If Oro can do it I guess
> 
> After all they share a title


Tsunade can do it because Orochimaru can?



Nali said:


> if madara could kill her by cutting off her head then why didn't he?
> why even at the end when she no longer had the byakugou he cut her at the waist?
> this means that he tried to behead her but he failed.


I mean cut someone head off their body can be done by being blitz them along you have the power to do it 

Or just huge amount of power Madara could of if he wanted to with his V4/Perfect Susanoo he decided to let the 5 kages live

Also decapitation is probably worse than her injury on the waist like how does she regrow her head


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## Troyse22 (Jun 10, 2021)

Impulse785 said:


> Tsunade can do it because Orochimaru can?



/s

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Shazam (Jun 10, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> Can't have it both ways.
> 
> Either assert she's just as fast as lightened ay or she's slow.



... if you're not as fast as Lightened A4, then your slow.

Ok.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Where has Byakuyo shown this in Boruto ? Did Sakura do it in the recent chapter or something ? I mean if true then I concede immediately


No. Orochimaru and Victor use what is called a regeneration technique that works by performing a handseal before or after they have been injured in order to heal said damage. Tsunade and Sakura don't have to perform handseal once they activate Byakugou.


MHA massive fan said:


> She does know why would she. She said I can regrow limbs and organs she never said I can regrow my head or my full body


I think you may be a bit confused what do you think the head is?  Skin, bones, muscle, cells, etc. I have no idea why you said full body I'm a bit confused.


MHA massive fan said:


> And yet we know he was pussy footing till he got serious and used PS. you can’t say Madara intended to kill her and was fighting seriously when we know he was holding back his full abilities .


Except he did.... He did the same to everyone. He was even embarrassed that he had to show them Susanoo again. Just because Madara didn't pull out PS from the get go doesn't mean he didn't try. You usually don't pull out your trump card unless you need to not just because you can. Without his Golem Hashi is still founders tier the same applies to Madara.


MHA massive fan said:


> See above


No need I've already adressed it.


Troyse22 said:


> Was possible pre Boruto as Kabuto turned Orochimarus head to mush and Oro Oral rebirthed it.
> 
> The feats just don't transfer to Tsunade


I didn't use pre Boruto because I'm going off of Boruto as well. The fact that there is a jutsu that can regenerate heads and limbs with a single handseal before or after damage. Is evidence that the *pinnacle* of medical ninjutsu should be able to do the same.


Impulse785 said:


> Tsunade can regrow her head
> 
> What?


I don't think I've ever outright stated it was a thing. Just that there is a possibility (A pretty strong one) that it can and I've also stated multiple times even where you read it that I would never use something like that to argue whether or not Tsunade wins a match. I've stated it so much it's almost implied at this point.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

Troyse22 said:


> Can't have it both ways.
> 
> Either assert she's just as fast as lightened ay or she's slow.


Umm there is a big flaw in this type of logic...


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> No. Orochimaru and Victor use what is called a regeneration technique that works by performing a handseal before or after they have been injured in order to heal said damage. Tsunade and Sakura don't have to perform handseal once they activate Byakugou.


This has nothing do with the question I asked though 
I mean you said she could regrow her head then mentioned something in Boruto . I asked where 


SakuraLover16 said:


> I think you may be a bit confused what do you think the head is?  Skin, bones, muscle, cells, etc. I have no idea why you said full body I'm a bit confused.


Brain you know and head where the source of her seal is . 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Except he did.... He did the same to everyone. He was even embarrassed that he had to show them Susanoo again. Just because Madara didn't pull out PS from the get go doesn't mean he didn't try. You usually don't pull out your trump card unless you need to not just because you can. Without his Golem Hashi is still founders tier the same applies to Madara.


Say hi to Onoki and his jinton then 
Or sasuke and his susanoo spamming 


SakuraLover16 said:


> No need I've already adressed it.
> 
> I didn't use pre Boruto because I'm going off of Boruto as well. The fact that there is a jutsu that can regenerate heads and limbs with a single handseal before or after damage. Is evidence that the *pinnacle* of medical ninjutsu should be able to do the same.
> 
> I don't think I've ever outright stated it was a thing. Just that there is a possibility (A pretty strong one) that it can and I've also stated multiple times even where you read it that I would never use something like that to argue whether or not Tsunade wins a match. I've stated it so much it's almost implied at this point.


Lol

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> This has nothing do with the question I asked though
> I mean you said she could regrow her head then mentioned something in Boruto . I asked where


Literally right in what you quoted.


MHA massive fan said:


> Brain you know and head where the source of her seal is .


When the seal is opened all of that stored chakra is released into the body. If there is any chakra left after it's use the seal will reform in the same spot.


MHA massive fan said:


> Say hi to Onoki and his jinton then
> Or sasuke and his susanoo spamming


Kekei genkai and trump card aren't the same sir...


MHA massive fan said:


> Lol


Concession accepted.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 10, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Literally right in what you quoted.
> 
> When the seal is opened all of that stored chakra is released into the body. If there is any chakra left after it's use the seal will reform in the same spot.
> 
> ...


So onoki kekkei genkai isn’t his trump card ?
You mean he has a stronger move in stock 
Please show me when he used something above Jinton


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## Charmed (Jun 10, 2021)

Ei has the advantage.
He'll eventually cut Tsunade's head (same way he cut his arm) and end the match.
Raikage wins highdiff because, even tho he's fastrr than Tsunade, most of Ei4's attacks can easily be healed by Ninpo Sozo Saisei Byakugou no jutsu. Tsunade will have a hard time landing hits on Ei4; katsuyu too. Even if they land a hit, Ei4 wont recieve much damage thanx to RnY. I doubt Ranshinsho would work on Ei4 (if he has RnY) but evil medical ninjutsu, like the one she was gonna use to "heal" Orochimaru would be deadly.

Overall it's an interesting match.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 10, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> So onoki kekkei genkai isn’t his trump card ?
> You mean he has a stronger move in stock
> Please show me when he used something above Jinton


Let me ask you a question. Can something not be two things at the same time? 

Here is a little scenario. I inject 10 people with this extremely dangerous flesh eating virus and nine of those people die horrifically painful deaths while the last person is perfectly fine. Does the extremely dangerous flesh eating virus stop being an extremely dangerous flesh eating virus in general? The answer would be no.

Does an exception to a rule/pattern mean that the rule/pattern no longer applies anymore? The answer is no.

In every fight we've seen in the manga. The battle progresses in intensity saving your most powerful move for last doesn't mean you aren't using your full strength.

By the way a trump card doesn't have to be your strongest attack. It's something valuable that can be used especially in a surprise to gain an advantage.

Also Madara did use PS twice.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Let me ask you a question. Can something not be two things at the same time?
> 
> Here is a little scenario. I inject 10 people with this extremely dangerous flesh eating virus and nine of those people die horrifically painful deaths while the last person is perfectly fine. Does the extremely dangerous flesh eating virus stop being an extremely dangerous flesh eating virus in general? The answer would be no.
> 
> ...


You didn’t answer my direct question
PS is also a KKG as is moukton btw
Battle progression is the Sannin excuse though. It’s entirely up to the ninja who is fighting Onoki always starts with jinton
Sasuke starts with his KKg susanoo also his trump card 
Deidara started with C4 against Onoki 
Kabuto started with Sm against the uchiha brothers and so on


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## Sparks (Jun 11, 2021)

Boro's regen is head and shoulders above anything Creation Rebirth can do.

Not sure why these are being compared.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Sage King (Jun 11, 2021)

Anyone who admits that v2 Ay can blitz and chop Tsunade admits that Ay 4 wins.
The arguments of Tsunade regenerating her head is getting sad

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> You didn’t answer my direct question
> PS is also a KKG as is moukton btw
> Battle progression is the Sannin excuse though. It’s entirely up to the ninja who is fighting Onoki always starts with jinton
> Sasuke starts with his KKg susanoo also his trump card
> ...


I did answer your question. Does Madara start off with PS of the bat, Does Hashirama start of with his Golem, Kabuto modified his body to always take in natural energy so he's pretty much always in sage mode, etc. The other thing that I am noticing is that you are purposefully conflating KKG with a trump card the two don't have to be the same. Would Sasuke ordinarily start off with PS? Does Deidara normally start off with C4?

You've lost already and you know it. That's why now you're being purposefully obtuse.


Sage King said:


> Anyone who admits that v2 Ay can blitz and chop Tsunade admits that Ay 4 wins.
> The arguments of Tsunade regenerating her head is getting sad


Who's arguing that Tsunade is regenerating her head? I and the others haven't used that as an argument as to why she wins and I've never outright stated that she can.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

Sparks said:


> Boro's regen is head and shoulders above anything Creation Rebirth can do.
> 
> Not sure why these are being compared.


I wasn't necessarily using Boruto's Regen but the regeneration jutsu that has been used instead.


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## Sage King (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Who's arguing that Tsunade is regenerating her head? I and the others haven't used that as an argument as to why she wins and I've never outright stated that she can.


Then how does Tsunade win against v2 Ay4 if you don't mind me asking?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I did answer your question. Does Madara start off with PS of the bat, Does Hashirama start of with his Golem,


They more or less both did in war arc against each other though. Thus proving my point 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Kabuto modified his body to always take in natural energy so he's pretty much always in sage mode, etc. The other thing that I am noticing is that you are purposefully conflating KKG with a trump card the two don't have to be the same. Would Sasuke ordinarily start off with PS? Does Deidara normally start off with C4?


This is false kabuto had to turn into SM. That’s your head canon right there 


SakuraLover16 said:


> You've lost already and you know it. That's why now you're being purposefully obtuse.
> 
> Who's arguing that Tsunade is regenerating her head? I and the others haven't used that as an argument as to why she wins and I've never outright stated that she can.


Lol


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 11, 2021)

Almost every single Gokage member is a bad matchup for Tsunade lol

In the desert she's too slow to not be engulfed in waves of sand and she doesn't have the range to overpower a flying Gaara either so realistically she gets suffocated and/or mulched

Mei just chills in the mist while Tsunade melts and wastes chakra constantly regenerating completely unaware of where her adversary is

Ōnoki oneshots lmao

And A4?

He blitzes and punches/chops her head off. Or pulverizes it, pick your poison. Tsunade can't regenerate her head, never has done and never will be able to

_Jūbi Madara_ almost died from getting his torso blown out which is leagues below having your brain matter splattered across the pavement in terms of damage but I'm supposed to believe Sozō Saisei users can regrow their heads like Edos, lmao okay

Her regen was stopped dead in its tracks by a tree bifurcating her. All A4 needs to do is lop her head off and kick it away

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 7 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

Sage King said:


> Then how does Tsunade win against v2 Ay4 if you don't mind me asking?


I went over that in a previous post probably one of the first ones I posted. So maybe it's near the beginning of the thread. Or so I believe anyways.


MHA massive fan said:


> They more or less both did in war arc against each other though. Thus proving my point


It's more on the less side if I'm not mistaken. Wasn't it also largely off panel?


MHA massive fan said:


> This is false kabuto had to turn into SM. That’s your head canon right there


He passively collects Sage energy because of Jugo's DNA. Nevermind it's because of that that he is able to use it indefinitely. So I concede on this.


MHA massive fan said:


> Lol


Concession accepted XD.

Anyways now that we have gotten largely off topic it's time to go back because you didn't address a lot of what I brought up.


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I went over that in a previous post probably one of the first ones I posted. So maybe it's near the beginning of the thread. Or so I believe anyways.
> 
> It's more on the less side if I'm not mistaken. Wasn't it also largely off panel?
> 
> ...


A lot of it was head canon
Considering you have this idea ninja always fight progressively 
Which I showed was incorrect


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## Sage King (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> To be fair even Ay thought it was more likely that she would tire out instead of being outright killed. On top of this she did Survive being catapulted by Mabui's jutsu in base. Plus Ay doesn't insta activate his shroud which gives her plenty of time to activate Byakugou.


Are you talking about this post?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> A lot of it was head canon
> Considering you have this idea ninja always fight progressively
> Which I showed was incorrect


Actually it wasn't. I know you didn't read it because it was the post where you asked why it was so long. So no it wasn't because it was headcanon it's because you didn't read it. Also here is a tip just because you don't agree with what I post doesn't mean it's headcanon and as I've explained before as clear as day exceptions don't mean a pattern doesn't exist.  Which in my examples I showed you was a foolish train of thought to have.

The fact of the matter is fights in the manga for the most part have been progressive. Anyways how would you apply your stance to Ay 4 since that was our original topic.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

Sage King said:


> Are you talking about this post?


No I think it's the one after that it's a pretty decent size. Then after that post I go over MHA's post strawmaning me.


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## Sage King (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I wholeheartedly agree. Not to mention Tsunade's Byakugou strikes were able to shatter Madara's Susanoo ribcage while even something like Naruto's Cho Odama rasengan left hardly a mark. This means damaging him would be likely hardly an issue. Overpowering her is also out of the question and sticking a hand through her likely ends in his severe injury or death since he would effectively losing his chance to escape. Ay didn't say as long as she protects her head she won't die he just said even if you can't die you can still tire basically. So whatever he saw during that time probably lead him to that statement. All of Ay's moves pretty much leave him in punching range and against many other people it would be great but not against someone who can overpower him, take a lot of punishment, heal from anything he could dish out, and hurt him without difficulty. Her lack of severe injury against something like a point blank magatama says lots about her durability and healing.


This one then?


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

Sage King said:


> This one then?


Yes it not as detailed as I usually do them but I'm exhausted and keep putting of Studying for my board exam. It all depends on how you believe the fight goes though. I have an easier time discussing when someone already has an idea of the order of events. I should warn you though my limit is dwindling I'm not used to the long drawn out back and forth like I once was.


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## Sage King (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yes it not as detailed as I usually do them but I'm exhausted and keep putting of Studying for my board exam. It all depends on how you believe the fight goes though. I have an easier time discussing when someone already has an idea of the order of events. I should warn you though my limit is dwindling I'm not used to the long drawn out back and forth like I once was.


But then in that same post you believe Tsunade can take any of Ay's attacks.
Ay can chop not stab.
So you think Tsunade can regenerate from Ay's chops to the neck?
Which implies you think that Tsunade can regenerate being beheaded no?

Edit: cool, if you are exhausted.
And let me not disturb you in studying for your exam.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Jun 11, 2021)

Tsunade DESTROYS A4, she just needs one punch thats it and he can't blitz her even in V2. Mid-high diff being generous.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

Sage King said:


> But then in that same post you believe Tsunade can take any of Ay's attacks.


Yes.


Sage King said:


> Ay can chop not stab.
> So you think Tsunade can regenerate from Ay's chops to the neck?


Yes if her head isn't completely disconnected from her body and we know that with Byakugou an injury starts to heal the instant a wound happens. 


Sage King said:


> Which implies you think that Tsunade can regenerate being beheaded no?


Not necessarily. For the most part people here by beheaded actually mean lose her head completely like not connected complet gone. They usually talk about regrowing a new head. Considering her neck is a body part why wouldn't it start healing the instant an injury is made. I don't know why it's considered crazy considering she actually survived prolonged bisection without dying from shock or blood loss. Neither did she lose her head from being catapulted at light speed by Mabui's jutsu sustaining no injuries on her neck either. Anyways though if her neck was the only weakspot of her technique wouldn't she be aware and only guard that part?


Sage King said:


> Edit: cool, if you are exhausted.
> And let me not disturb you in studying for your exam.


It's fine as long as it's not drawn too far out.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2021)

Sage King said:


> Anyone who admits that v2 Ay can blitz and chop Tsunade admits that Ay 4 wins.
> The arguments of Tsunade regenerating her head is getting sad



What's your argument against it?


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 11, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> What's your argument against it?


Lack of feats as anyone with sense
As if we go just by jutsu description then we must remain consistent

air palm wall does internal damage ( despite kisame feeling nothing )
Yata can counter jutsu regardless of its nature
Hirudora is a 1 shot kill attack ( despite it clearly not doing that )

so sure she can regrow anything so long as those who claim that agree with the above . 
can use feats for one person and then ignore feats or lack thereof for another


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> Lack of feats as anyone with sense
> As if we go just by jutsu description then we must remain consistent
> 
> air palm wall does internal damage ( despite kisame feeling nothing )
> ...



I already know whatever _you_ try to argue with will be crap. You are a self-admitted hater, too. I'm asking @Sage King.


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## xingi (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I wasn't necessarily using Boruto's Regen but the regeneration jutsu that has been used instead.


The regen  jutsu especially the one used my Victor is not comparable, the one victor uses has the side effects of killing him in an in a manner that cannot be regenerated


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## t0xeus (Jun 11, 2021)

Ei4 can tank Tsunade's punches, she can't tank his nor can she regenerate if she's dead (through decapitation).

I am backing Ei4.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 11, 2021)

I cannot see Tsunade tagging Raikage.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jun 11, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> I already know whatever _you_ try to argue with will be crap. You are a self-admitted hater, too. I'm asking @Sage King.


 keep the same standard reeeh clan
If you use portrayal use for all characters not just sannin reeeeeh


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## FlamingRain (Jun 11, 2021)

MHA massive fan said:


> keep the same standard reeeh clan
> If you use portrayal use for all characters not just sannin reeeeeh



Looking for hypocrisy that isn't there.

Again.

Just proving why you're not worth asking.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Lyren (Jun 11, 2021)

Tsunade blitzes A4 by feats 
Low-mid diffs him by portrayal

Reactions: Funny 2 | Friendly 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

xingi said:


> The regen  jutsu especially the one used my Victor is not comparable, the one victor uses has the side effects of killing him in an in a manner that cannot be regenerated


Actually it still seems really similar to creation rebirth. He can't regenerate his leg and arm because at the time he overused his jutsu and Everytime he used it after his health started declining. He was also using a curse seal to extend his life. Byakugou works in a sort of similar way.


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## Nali (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Actually it still seems really similar to creation rebirth. He can't regenerate his leg and arm because at the time he overused his jutsu and Everytime he used it after his health started declining. He was also using a curse seal to extend his life. Byakugou works in a sort of similar way.


These bitches don't understand that creation rebirth >>>>>> all other regeneration techniques by kishimoto's word

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## xingi (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Actually it still seems really similar to creation rebirth. He can't regenerate his leg and arm because at the time he overused his jutsu and Everytime he used it after his health started declining. He was also using a curse seal to extend his life. Byakugou works in a sort of similar way.


Um no? Creation rebirth don't cause a health decline   and the cursed seal he used was to keep him alive  long enough to find a cure to the side effects, its not  connected to the regen justu..... I fail to see how any of this is similar to the byakuyo.

Regeneration powerful enough to survive  beheadings  always cam with its own  drawbacks, victor with his health and boro with the size of his core


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

xingi said:


> Um no? Creation rebirth don't cause a health decline   and the cursed seal he used was to keep him alive  long enough to find a cure to the side effects, its not  connected to the regen justu..... I fail to see how any of this is similar to the byakuyo.
> 
> Regeneration powerful enough to survive  beheadings  always cam with its own  drawbacks, victor with his health and boro with the size of his core


Creation rebirth works by supposedly speeding up the process of mitosis which in turn does decrease the user's lifespan. It is mentioned in the explanation of the technique.

It was the curse seal that started eroding his health and physicals but the usage of his regeneration ability worsened it's effects. His overusage of his regeneration abilities cost him a permanently lost right arm and leg.

Creation rebirth also has drawbacks it has been mentioned a lot. It's very chakra intensive and shortens the user's natural lifespan. That's the reason why Tsunade when the technique was introduced stressed that it was regeneration because old cells are not repaired.


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## xingi (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Creation rebirth works by *supposedly* speeding up the process of mitosis which in turn does decrease the user's lifespan. It is mentioned in the explanation of the technique.


So not a fact? Ok



SakuraLover16 said:


> It was the curse seal that started eroding his health and physicals but the usage of his regeneration ability worsened it's effects. His overusage of his regeneration abilities cost him a permanently lost right arm and leg.


???? Victor  lost a leg and an eye, he has both arms. Also no, Victor's health was already  bad beffore he got the cursed seal because of his regen jutsu. Like that's the whole reason he joined  kara, he hoped jigen could  find a cure for him.



SakuraLover16 said:


> That's the reason why Tsunade when the technique was introduced stressed that it was regeneration because old cells are not repaired.


Soooo like almost all other regeneration? Probably  except  boro and delta's I'm guessing


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 11, 2021)

xingi said:


> So not a fact? Ok


Do you know your Naruto that one is definitently a fact. Here you go.




xingi said:


> ???? Victor lost a leg and an eye, he has both arms. Also no, Victor's health was already bad beffore he got the cursed seal because of his regen jutsu. Like that's the whole reason he joined kara, he hoped jigen could find a cure for him.


I meant eye not arm. I put arm before and thought I had erased it. He tried using the curse seal to prolong his life however it started affecting his health and the regeneration made it worse. He actually joined Kara to use their resources and to bribe them.


xingi said:


> Soooo like almost all other regeneration? Probably except boro and delta's I'm guessing


Well only hers is said to be the pinnacle of medical ninjutsu so there is that.


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## Sparks (Jun 11, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I wasn't necessarily using Boruto's Regen but the regeneration jutsu that has been used instead.


We haven't really seen much from Boruto/Momoshiki's healing abilities to know what its limit is.

Either way, Amado's nanotech augmented body morphing also relies on enhancing cell division to expand, reshape, and harden/soften tissue. Given the fact that Kawkai has created discardable shields and weapons several times the size of his limbs/body, and uses such morphing regularly, cell division/regeneration enhanced by Inorganic technology is likely not subject to the same biological constraints as Creation Rebirth.

Not shortening one's life and not being portrayed to be as chakra costly puts it above Creation Rebirth by far.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

Sparks said:


> We haven't really seen much from Boruto/Momoshiki's healing abilities to know what its limit is.


I was talking about the jutsu Orochimaru and Victor used.


Sparks said:


> Either way, Amado's nanotech augmented body morphing also relies on enhancing cell division to expand, reshape, and harden/soften tissue. Given the fact that Kawkai has created discardable shields and weapons several times the size of his limbs/body, and uses such morphing regularly, cell division/regeneration enhanced by Inorganic technology is likely not subject to the same biological constraints as Creation Rebirth


This is fair. If we knew a bit more concerning Kawaki like maybe what do the nano machines in his body take in return and whatnot we would be able to better compare the difference between the ninja arts and technology. 


Sparks said:


> Not shortening one's life and not being portrayed to be as chakra costly puts it above Creation Rebirth by far.


Except it does have a huge weakness Kawaki mentions it. The more powerful the regeneration the larger the core that powers it and the destruction of that core is catastrophic for the user versus creation rebirth where your only immediate issue may be the amount of chakra consumed.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 12, 2021)

The real issue here is inconsistency in Kishimoto's writing causing so many arguments when it comes to Tsunade as usual. It is stated that Tsunade's regeneration is on par with Hashirama's which cannot regenerate limbs as seen when Madara chose to use a White Zetsu arm instead of regrowing one.

It is also stated that Orochimaru sought Hashirama's cells to help him achieve immortality and that both Tsunade and Hashirama have the ultimate/unsurpassed/unparalleled regeneration jutsu. Yet, only Orochimaru seems to have the actual ability to regenerate limbs and hell even a whole new body in general despite his apparently being weaker than Tsunade and Hashirama's.

It also appears Tsunade's has been retconned to be weaker since hers can't regenerate limbs anymore. So really I don't blame people for being on either side of the fence in these discussions. Kishimoto is the real one to blame here for contradicting himself and confusing everyone.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1 | Neutral 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

I read it different to me Madara compared the techniques because of the ability to heal without seals. Looking at the severe injuries she's already healed on panel they a thousand times over equal a limb. However it's through the Raikage's words that make my eyebrows raise a bit and that was him saying even if you can't die you'll tire yourself out. Those words come from the moment where we were first introduced to the technique we believed that it was a hyperbole but what if it isn't? Remember in chapter 169 Orochimaru states that it's a form of immortality that he was envious of or so that's what I remember from one translation. So in my opinion Kishi is sending so many mixed signals. The true nature of Byakugou also has yet to be revealed in Boruto though so I'm just waiting to see what happens

Reactions: Winner 3 | Informative 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

Tsunade can’t regrow limbs based on feats and her biology to be clear.

Human’s lack the necessary cells to de-differentiate, like some reptiles/spiders/insects do, there’s a specific set of molecules we don’t possess that *builds the arm backwards* that we don’t have anymore due to evolution.

It’s one thing to heal something, it’s another to reconstruct it backwards. Which is specifically what is occurring when a limb is “healed”
in an animal species. It’s just a foreign function, like being able to see in ultraviolet (butterflies) or hear in infrasonic (whales), we just can’t do it, even being a superhuman doesn’t matter, you’re just an amplified version of a human, the human still doesn’t possess the cells to do certain things and Tsunade’s cells splitting or rapidly accelerating healing won’t do it, it’ll just seal the wound where the arm was severed immediately with skin.

Oro fucked with his DNA and added snake shit to it to be able to do it, a Juubi Jin is an alien fusion, and Boro is using advanced medical technology to regenerate his limbs, which will be  for us at some point as well, it’s not for Tsunade without that technology, and we know the limit of her technology, even with her performing surgery on herself in a medical facility she would still cap at having a 50/50 chance in repairing the crushed limb of Rock Lee, her technology even if she were part cyborg via her own specific implants it wouldn’t help her it’s too primitive compared to Amado’s.

Even Hashirama’s alien cells didn’t correctly heal Naruto’s limb, and he’s additionally amplified by a fusion of fox and human DNA because he grew from day 1 influenced by Kurama’s leaking chakra, hence the whisker mutation on his face.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Optimistic 1


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## blk (Jun 12, 2021)

A4 blitzes and one shots

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Bringer (Jun 12, 2021)

Ei found it more plausible that Tsunade would run out of chakra in a fight against the five V3 susanoo clones before sustaining a wound that would outright kill her. He isn't one shotting.

Not to mention that his speed has not been portrayed as insurmountable relative to her. He asked her to contribute in a battle against speedsters such as KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, and then she herself was confident that she'd be able to take on Ei in a fight as well. 

That alongside that he has no answers for Katsuyu makes this a solid win for Tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Kage 7 | Disagree 1


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

I think it's much more plausible that tsunade will take A's attack by plating it with her tremendous strength and regeneration and soon afterwards convert part of her chakra into electricity which would be transmitted to A's nervous system via his lightning armor that essentially would act as a conductor. with the nervous system on tilt A would no longer be able to move properly and would be a very easy target to hit. ranshinsho is a very underrated technique. tsunade wins for demonstrations and hype

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> I think it's much more plausible that tsunade will take A's attack by plating it with her tremendous strength and regeneration and soon afterwards convert part of her chakra into electricity which would be transmitted to A's nervous system via his lightning armor that essentially would act as a conductor. with the nervous system on tilt A would no longer be able to move properly and would be a very easy target to hit. ranshinsho is a very underrated technique. tsunade wins for demonstrations and hype


It won’t get through his RnY that technique doesn’t conduct it’s a shield

He’s also obviously a raiton master so that wouldn’t damage him just as Darui’s lightning wave didn’t damage Sasuke and the fact that he’s literally already zapping himself with lightning and nothing is happening to him in fact he improves in durability, visual reception,  speed and strength with lightning running through him

It doesn’t help that he wasn’t remotely affected by light speed raiton pushing him across a country, coming out the other end slugging a kage level away, so yea, his body even with RnY off simply wouldn’t be damaged by something that weak let alone a lightning based one

Reactions: Kage 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

imagine saying bullshit as electricity does not conduct any more electricity lol

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

Based on Tsunade's biology she also shouldn't be able to survive bisection and regenerate organs. Including things like a destroyed spine that should be far outside the human limits to begin with. But here we are.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> imagine saying bullshit as electricity does not conduct any more electricity lol


Bud lightning blocks lightning


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## Sage King (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Yes if her head isn't completely disconnected from her body and we know that with Byakugou an injury starts to heal the instant a wound happens.
> 
> ...


How will her head stay connected to her body though?
Ay can bisect something as huge as Gyuki 's horn.
Not only that but his lateral bolt of pain penetrated a ribcage Susanoo and had force to  send Sasuke to the ground.
He even used the chop against madara's ribcage Susanoo to get the man back into mei's yoton.
So his chops can clearly generate force to sent Tsunade's head flying.
So once raikage goes v2 it's over for Tsunade.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Based on Tsunade's biology she also shouldn't be able to survive bisection and regenerate organs. Including things like a destroyed spine that should be far outside the human limits to begin with. But here we are.


People can survive bisection, for superhumans it’s easier, everything in the human body aside from teeth have the potential to heal so healing organs with cell splitting shouldn’t be an issue.


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Bud lightning blocks lightning


What are you trying to say?
do you mean that someone who uses lightning release is immune to all other techniques related to lightning release? then since ranshinsho implies the use of electricity tsunade is immune to any of A's attack and does not even need to resort to regeneration.


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

Sage King said:


> How will her head stay connected to her body though?
> Ay can bisect something as huge as Gyuki 's horn.
> Not only that but his lateral bolt of pain penetrated a ribcage Susanoo and had force to  send Sasuke to the ground.
> He even used the chop against madara's ribcage Susanoo to get the man back into mei's yoton.
> ...


all beautiful but you forget the part in which the hachibi does not have regenerative abilities that act on the instant like tsunade has.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> What are you trying to say?
> do you mean that someone who uses lightning release is immune to all other techniques related to lightning release? then since ranshinsho implies the use of electricity tsunade is immune to any of A's attack and does not even need to resort to regeneration.


No, someone who has a lightning shield on probably won’t be affected by a minor charge transfer by Tsunade’s garbage raiton.

DB foretells that most attacks won’t have an affect on it, others, like Sasuke’s powerful Chidori Kusanagi that flew out of his hand on contact are actually deflected by the extreme vibrations of it.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sage King (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> all beautiful but you forget the part in which the hachibi does not have regenerative abilities that act on the instant like tsunade has.


What does hachibi's regeneration have to do with what I said though?
I'm bringing Hachibi's horn as a way to show that Ay has range using his chops.
So he can cut Tsunade's head cleanly off her neck.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

Last warning for flaming @Nali


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

@FlamingRain nah man, I’ve been banned for far less, recommend the ban to an admin or I’ll just tag them personally


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Last warning for flaming @Nali


I'm sorry but when I discuss with people who do not want to understand to pre-induce I get irritated


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> @FlamingRain nah man, I’ve been banned for far less, recommend the ban to an admin or I’ll start tagging them personally



With no warning when you were a new member?

No.



Nali said:


> I'm sorry but when I discuss with people who do not want to understand to pre-induce I get irritated



That  does not make it acceptable.


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

Sage King said:


> And then, what's your problem?
> So if you have no argument you resort to insults?
> Grow up bruh.
> And for the record, saying Tsunade cannot be killed because of statements means nothing here.
> Only feats.


Well by feats even madara was also completely unable to kill her although he wanted to so what are you saying?


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## Sage King (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> Well by feats even madara was also completely unable to kill her although he wanted to so what are you saying?


Well the whole gokage were still alive.
Unless you believe madara(a sensory type) failed to know if he had  killed the gokage or not.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

Sage King said:


> How will her head stay connected to her body though?
> Ay can bisect something as huge as Gyuki 's horn.
> Not only that but his lateral bolt of pain penetrated a ribcage Susanoo and had force to  send Sasuke to the ground.
> He even used the chop against madara's ribcage Susanoo to get the man back into mei's yoton.
> ...


How did her head stay connected being flung at light speed? How did she manage not to be effortlessly split by Kusanagi. The answer is durability. Also a horn and a human body aren't the same. A horn is solid and rigid a human body isn't. Therefore a human body would absorb shock better or it would in that case. Mind you she also point blank tanked a yasaka bead the same yasaka beads that nearly broke through Gaara and Ohnoki's combined defense.

Also the instant an injury is created the healing begins and healing is extremely fast. Mind you this is the same Ay who wanted her help against two speedsters and who got in his way when he tried to capture Bee and Naruto. Have you ever thought of why Ay didn't topple the villages after the death of Minato if the other Kage wouldn't be able to do anything about his speed? Also he's extremely linear when he uses his speed meaning that if you know where he is coming from next then it's easier to mount a defense and even attack.


DaVizWiz said:


> People can survive bisection, for superhumans it’s easier, everything in the human body aside from teeth have the potential to heal so healing organs with cell splitting shouldn’t be an issue.


How many people have survived prolonged bisection and not died from blood loss and shock? How many people are able to walk after being split in half mere moments before. What human heals without any scarring after taking grevious injury, who walks around nearly bisected? All together her spine was destroyed three times. Adult nerve cells dont regenerate. Did you know that the liver is the only organ that is supposed to be able to regenerate. Cardiac muscle cells dont regenerate at all for example if cells die in the heart then that part of the heart is weak forever but you can bet Tsunade can do so effortlessly. So no her capabilities are outside the range of human capability in the first place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

Sage King said:


> Well the whole gokage were still alive.
> Unless you believe madara(a sensory type) failed to know if he had  killed the gokage or not.


They were all still alive maybe because, Just like tsunade managed to survive thanks to her incredible vitality,
the others will have defended themselves in their own way.


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## WhoFedAhri? (Jun 12, 2021)

We shouldnt really use "a4 can blitz her head off" because fight dont go like that. If they did Jigen would have just used his rods on Naruto/Sasuke brains or throats snd OHKO them

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> They were all still alive maybe because, Just like tsunade managed to survive thanks to her incredible vitality,
> the others will have defended themselves in their own way.


I actually think he left them barely alive to suffer mind you he thought he had neutralized Tsunade considering he took absolute care to to drop a huge log to keep her from reaching her lower half. For all intents and purposes he thought she would die and when she did the others would follow. Looking at the severity of her injuries and her positioning it's almost pretty much implied she was the last to go down against him.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> How did her head stay connected being flung at light speed? How did she manage not to be effortlessly split by Kusanagi. The answer is durability. Also a horn and a human body aren't the same. A horn is solid and rigid a human body isn't. Therefore a human body would absorb shock better or it would in that case. Mind you she also point blank tanked a yasaka bead the same yasaka beads that nearly broke through Gaara and Ohnoki's combined defense.
> 
> Also the instant an injury is created the healing begins and healing is extremely fast. Mind you this is the same Ay who wanted her help against two speedsters and who got in his way when he tried to capture Bee and Naruto. Have you ever thought of why Ay didn't topple the villages after the death of Minato if the other Kage wouldn't be able to do anything about his speed? Also he's extremely linear when he uses his speed meaning that if you know where he is coming from next then it's easier to mount a defense and even attack.
> 
> How many people have survived prolonged bisection and not died from blood loss and shock? How many people are able to walk after being split in half mere moments before. What human heals without any scarring after taking grevious injury, who walks around nearly bisected? All together her spine was destroyed three times. Adult nerve cells dont regenerate. Did you know that the liver is the only organ that is supposed to be able to regenerate. Cardiac muscle cells dont regenerate at all for example if cells die in the heart then that part of the heart is weak forever but you can bet Tsunade can do so effortlessly. So no her capabilities are outside the range of human capability in the first place.


Durability. Durability.

Tsunade can't react to A4 and she is more linear than him, thus she'll be easier to counter slash for bisection/dismemberment. If he wants to be the aggressor he can by punching the seal on her head into smithereens along with the head, if he doesn't he can easily just hang back defensively and counter slash a limb off at a time, and then remove the head. We've never seen a defensive A4, he's quite untouchable I'd imagine.

Several. It doesn't happen often. Scar tissue doesn't happen if the wound can be healed quickly. Crushed spines can and have healed themselves. Nerve cells do regenerate, the only thing that doesn't heal in the human body is teeth. Hearts do heal, they're back to normal a couple weeks after a heart attack, the person can go running again whereas weeks prior they were unable to move out of their bed before the heart began cramping and going in hyperdrive - that's a pretty crazy difference - and it's a result of healing. 

Her capabilities are outside the range of a normal human, a superhuman no. Superhumans don't automatically regenerate limbs by the way. Even superman, who is simply a better version of a human in every way, immune to toxins, diseases, all that extra small shit that is simply too weak to even affect a single crazy powerful cell in his body - even he would never heal a dismemberment.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I actually think he left them barely alive to suffer mind you he thought he had neutralized Tsunade considering he took absolute care to to drop a huge log to keep her from reaching her lower half. For all intents and purposes he thought she would die and when she did the others would follow. Looking at the severity of her injuries and her positioning it's almost pretty much implied she was the last to go down against him.



Add onto this that Madara said he was unsure but suspected that they were not doing alright. So it would seem he left knowing they were technically alive but expected them to die soon after.


My bet is that he gave them a small chance as payment for coming up with a combination that made him pull out PS earlier.


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I actually think he left them barely alive to suffer mind you he thought he had neutralized Tsunade considering he took absolute care to to drop a huge log to keep her from reaching her lower half. For all intents and purposes he thought she would die and when she did the others would follow. Looking at the severity of her injuries and her positioning it's almost pretty much implied she was the last to go down against him.


Yes she was the last go down because she was actually the strongest kage at that time.


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## Sage King (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> How did her head stay connected being flung at light speed? How did she manage not to be effortlessly split by Kusanagi. The answer is durability. Also a horn and a human body aren't the same. A horn is solid and rigid a human body isn't. Therefore a human body would absorb shock better or it would in that case. Mind you she also point blank tanked a yasaka bead the same yasaka beads that nearly broke through Gaara and Ohnoki's combined defense.
> 
> Also the instant an injury is created the healing begins and healing is extremely fast. Mind you this is the same Ay who wanted her help against two speedsters and who got in his way when he tried to capture Bee and Naruto. Have you ever thought of why Ay didn't topple the villages after the death of Minato if the other Kage wouldn't be able to do anything about his speed? Also he's extremely linear when he uses his speed meaning that if you know where he is coming from next then it's easier to mount a defense and even.


So in other words you believe Tsunade can take Ay's lateral bolt of pain without being bisected?
Ay's chop=/ Kusanagi or light speed travel.
Unless you believe Tsunade can tank Ay's chop. Those techniques are not comparable to the raikage chops.
What does Ay attacking in linear have to do with Tsunade landing a hit.
His reflexes are no joke.
It's not like Tsunade is going to raise a fist and Ay 4 would run into it.
He can dodge her punch an bisect her.
Or appear behind her like he did to MS Sasuke.

And having Tsunade coming with him to stop Bee and Naruto had nothing to do with speed.
Tsunade having to stop Naruto had nothing to do with speed I repeat.
The mission was to stop Naruto and Bee by any means.
Tsunade was the leaf Hokage by that time. It's only logical for her to be there if one of her subordinates was doing what was prohibited, no?
She had to take responsibility for her leaf ninja behavior no?
Ay 4 himself didn't think Naruto was that fast.
He was stopping the boy using v1 alone.
So he didn't think Naruto's speed was trouble. He just wanted to stop the boy in any means.
Also Tsunade could talk Naruto out of going to war without fighting no?
Well gyuki's horn and Tsunade's body are not that different if the force of the chop can send the body parts flying.
Unless if you are saying Tsunade's body is spongy.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Durability. Durability.


What about it?


DaVizWiz said:


> Tsunade can't react to A4 and she is more linear than him, thus she'll be easier to counter slash for bisection/dismemberment.


I disagree she shares one of the best reaction feats with him which is attacking after lightspeed transportation the difference is she was able to kick under Madara's guard. Not to mention that she is more likely to quickly adapt to his attack pattern and predict his next move. This is not only based on Sakura's performance against Sasori but also Tsunade's experience. Also she is more likely to take an attack in order to deal another since she isn't too worried about injury as we've seen multiple times before. Also if Katsuyu is on the field she is practically unkillable and possesses both the range advantage and the numbers advantage as well as acid attacks.


DaVizWiz said:


> Several. It doesn't happen often. Scar tissue doesn't happen if the wound can be healed quickly. Crushed spins can and have healed themselves. Nerve cells do regenerate, the only thing that doesn't heal in the human body is teeth. Hearts do heal, people have even healed heart tissue if you can believe it.


Actually very few survive bisection and it usually depends on the location above the waist and you are pretty much dead for the most part and the situations where they don't die in mere minutes is if something is wedged against them which clamps down on arteries however Tsunade didn't have either of those advantages and managed not to die in mere moments like she was supposed to based on human anatomy. The spinal cord does not have the ability to heal itself if damaged. Peripheral nerves can regenerate and repair to a point but the central nervous system cannot therefore this also means that damaged spines do not heal themselves. Lost cardiac muscle replaces the damaged parts with scar tissue however Tsunade can outright regenerate hers witch is outside of human capabilities


DaVizWiz said:


> Her capabilities are outside the range of a normal human, a superhuman no. Superhumans don't automatically regenerate limbs by the way. Even superman, who is simply a better version of a human in every way, would never heal a dismemberment.


We aren't talking about Superman (who is an alien) here just Naruto and people from Naruto have healed from dismemberment and regenerated limbs.


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

@SakuraLover16 let them rot in their ignorance. it's wasted time


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

Extramarital Child said:


> We shouldnt really use "a4 can blitz her head off" because fight dont go like that. If they did Jigen would have just used his rods on Naruto/Sasuke brains or throats snd OHKO them


It literally went like that for Izuna

For Jūbi Obito and Tobirama

For blind Madara and SM Naruto 

For A4 and Jūgo

It almost went like that for Minato and MS Sasuke, and they were only bailed out because they have defenses that can immediately be triggered with a mental flick

Arguing that blitzes don't happen in this manga so it shouldn't be debated in this matchup is not only factually untrue, but also disregards the prioritization of feats and gives unwarranted partiality to an incredibly flimsy and unempirical "portrayal" approach to powerscaling 

And even then, A4 has only failed in his blitzes against people SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than Tsunade in both feats AND portrayal - MS Sasuke, Minato, KCM Naruto, Madara

You can't handwave it willy-nilly. Doing that is dishonest. I can just as easily argue Tsunade has never won a fight in her life or killed anyone with her brute strength, so why should she get the benefit of the doubt here?

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Add onto this that Madara said he was unsure but suspected that they were not doing alright. So it would seem he left knowing they were technically alive but expected them to die soon after.
> 
> 
> My bet is that he gave them a small chance as payment for coming up with a combination that made him pull out PS earlier.


He may as well not have given them any chance looking at the way he left Tsunade.


Nali said:


> Yes she was the last go down because she was actually the strongest kage at that time.


I wouldn't say that I think Ohnoki can inch out a win against her more often than not however it wouldn't be anything less than extreme diff.


Sage King said:


> So in other words you believe Tsunade can take Ay's lateral bolt of pain without being bisected?


Yes. But if Katsuyu is on the field it wouldn't matter if she was or wasn't.


Sage King said:


> Ay's chop=/ Kusanagi or light speed travel.
> Unless you believe Tsunade can tank Ay's chop. Those techniques are not comparable to the raikage chops.
> What does Ay attacking in linear have to do with Tsunade landing a hit.


I disagree. When humans travel accelerating too fast should supposedly kill them instantly. Ay has shown that he can travel really fast to deliver stronger blows however Tsunade is able to output that type of force while standing still and can even hit harder. She doesn't have to fully tank the blow to survive it obviously and based on Ay's statement while Byakugou is active she is more likely to tire out than outright die which is why Orochimaru claimed to be envious of it.

If Ay's attacks are linear they are easier to predict which through Sakura we know that she is more than capable of doing. As we have seen multiple times Tsunade is more than willing to trade blows in order to land a hit. Which she would likely accomplish considering all she needs is one touch that seriously damage him.


Sage King said:


> Tsunade landing a hit.
> His reflexes are no joke.
> It's not like Tsunade is going to raise a fist and Ay 4 would run into it.
> He can dodge her punch an bisect her.
> Or appear behind her like he did to MS Sasuke.


Neither is her tenacity. If you try to hit her you leave your open to be hit. Which she will take advantage of. Does he not have to make contact to damage?

Bisecting her wouldn't even matter if she had chakra or Katsuyu on the field and a suplex/attack from behind likely wouldn't be enough especially since attack patterns would still be a thing.


Sage King said:


> And having Tsunade coming with him to stop Bee and Naruto had nothing to do with speed.
> Tsunade having to stop Naruto had nothing to do with speed.


Despite being in front of speedsters he expected her to be able to handle herself in battle.


Sage King said:


> The mission was to stop Naruto and Bee by any means.
> Tsunade was the leaf Hokage by that time. It's only logical for her to be there if one of her subordinates was doing what was prohibited, no?
> She had to take responsibility for her leaf ninjas no?
> Ay 4 himself didn't think Naruto was that fast.
> ...


Was it not Ay who came to the concludion that attacking them was their only option after they refused. Mind you in that very battle Naruto surpassed him in speed.


Sage King said:


> Well gyuki's horn and Tsunade's body are not that different if the force of the chop can send the body parts flying.


They are extremely different the human body absorbs shock way better. Hitting a wall of brinks with a sledge hammer and a person with a sledge hammer yields different results correct?


Sage King said:


> Unless if you are saying Tsunade's body is spongy.


I'm saying her body absorbs more shock than a horn does not to mention she also heals unlike a horn.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> @SakuraLover16 let them rot in their ignorance. it's wasted time


I'm about done. However I don't think that it's ignorance. Somehow now it's just easy to believe the more jutsu one has the more likely someone is to win. However despite not having variety Tsunade was given the title of being the strongest kunoichi and equal to her former teammates. There is usually a strong emphasis on speed in the B.D. despite slower people defeating faster ones.

Reactions: Kage 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> What about it?
> 
> I disagree she shares one of the best reaction feats with him which is attacking after lightspeed transportation the difference is she was able to kick under Madara's guard. Not to mention that she is more likely to quickly adapt to his attack pattern and predict his next move. This is not only based on Sakura's performance against Sasori but also Tsunade's experience. Also she is more likely to take an attack in order to deal another since she isn't too worried about injury as we've seen multiple times before. Also if Katsuyu is on the field she is practically unkillable and possesses both the range advantage and the numbers advantage as well as acid attacks.
> 
> ...


Then we don’t need to discuss any further. If you think Tsunade is as fast as the Raikage then there’s really no point in continuing.

The only reason the Raikage is a kage is because of his speed.

Tsunade has no ranged technique to keep him away and isn’t faster than an average kage level, so this should be the Raikage’s bread and butter perfect match.

So if he can’t hit her- I’m not sure there’s any kage level he would hit. Which begs to question - how is he a kage level? I’m assuming you have him ranked as an Elite Jounin, in which case you must be pretty angry at OP for making a dumb match like this since a Sannin would steamroll the entire EJ tier.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

Tough day for Tsunade stans when they're claiming she's as fast as A4

Tough


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Then we don’t need to discuss any further. If you think Tsunade is as fast as the Raikage then there’s really no point in continuing.


I never stated such however you don't need to be faster than your opponent to defeat them. But fair enough my fingers are getting tired ;-;


DaVizWiz said:


> The only reason the Raikage is a kage is because of his speed.


I disagree he was basically the strongest in the village and in truth isn't way too different fr his father who was also seen as a pretty powerful Shinobi being able to fight 10,000 ninja at the same time.


DaVizWiz said:


> Tsunade has no ranged technique and isn’t faster than an average kage level, so this should be his bread and butter match. If he can’t hit her- I’m not sure there’s any kage level he would beat. Which begs to question - how is he a kage level?


You don't need ranged techniques to be a capable ninja Gai pretty much showed us that he would still be just as powerful without Hirodura. However Tsunade can use range attacks through Katsuyu. Tsunade is just a little above average in speed in BASE Byakugou increases her power making her fast enough to coordinate with a lightened Ay. Also no one said she wouldn't be hit but dealing with a nigh immortal who hits just as hard as you while not being slow by any means, as well as resilient and Tammy as fudge is no easy feat for many Shinobi and it definitely doesn't mean he never wins against her.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Tough day for Tsunade stans when they're claiming she's as fast as A4
> 
> Tough


You let me know when you find them okay?

Reactions: Agree 4 | Funny 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I never stated such however you don't need to be faster than your opponent to defeat them. But fair enough my fingers are getting tired ;-;
> 
> I disagree he was basically the strongest in the village and in truth isn't way too different fr his father who was also seen as a pretty powerful Shinobi being able to fight 10,000 ninja at the same time.
> 
> You don't need ranged techniques to be a capable ninja Gai pretty much showed us that he would still be just as powerful without Hirodura. However Tsunade can use range attacks through Katsuyu. Tsunade is just a little above average in speed in BASE Byakugou increases her power making her fast enough to coordinate with a lightened Ay. Also no one said she wouldn't be hit but dealing with a nigh immortal who hits just as hard as you while not being slow by any means, as well as resilient and Tammy as fudge is no easy feat for many Shinobi and it definitely doesn't mean he never wins against her.


If he doesn’t have better speed he can’t beat her - since she hits harder and regenerates. There’s no way he can win. At best he can hope for a tie with an equal CES/lariat chop exchange but the regen gives Tsunade the advantage.

He was only the strongest because of his speed though. If he can’t blitz his opponent he can’t harm them, which means he’s no threat to them- powerless. So if there was another Jounin in the village that he couldn’t blitz - he’s weaker than them, period. He can’t harm them.

Never said you did, but having ranged techniques helps against A4 because all he can do is run in to try and punch you Therefore Tsunade, who doesn’t have any ranged techniques, is a bettter target for A4 than most other kage.

You think Tsunade is as fast as lightened Ei? Jeez, you must think this match is a joke then. She should be able to just blitz Ei4 - and by extension most of the kage class. I never knew Tsunade was the fastest in the world, you’d think the DB or a character would’ve mentioned her god like speed at some point.


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## blk (Jun 12, 2021)

Can someone tell me how Tsunade survives getting her head exploded by a V2 punch, that she cannot even mentally perceive let alone physically react to?


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

blk said:


> Can someone tell me how Tsunade survives getting her head exploded by a V2 punch, that she cannot even mentally perceive let alone physically react to?


Tsunade stan arguments for head regeneration boil down to "prove she can't"

Kindergarten logic

As well as "Katsuyu slows him down" but it literally didn't impede the infinitely slower KN1 Alliance shinobi when they fought the Shinjū

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 2 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 2


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## blk (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> Lol. These girls don't understand that she doesn't need speed to deal with him. All she just need is creation rebirth which by feats and author's own words makes her immortal to all effects.
> and then also to think that he can behead her when she got a yasaka magatama on her head and got up a moment later lol. Just LOL




@Lyren 's dupe?


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

blk said:


> Can someone tell me how Tsunade survives getting her head exploded by a V2 punch, that she cannot even mentally perceive let alone physically react to?


Really simple. 
he just doesn't get to make her whole head explode. 
Her regeneration is instantaneous and prevents he from doing so


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## blk (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> Really simple.
> he just doesn't get to make her whole head explode.
> Her regeneration is instantaneous and prevents he from doing so



This doesn't make sense. 

If her regeneration is so quick to prevent tissue separation from such high impact hits, she wouldn't have been bisected for example.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

blk said:


> Can someone tell me how Tsunade survives getting her head exploded by a V2 punch, that she cannot even mentally perceive let alone physically react to?


He can’t do that according to @SakuraLover16

He’s an Elite Jounin now, since he can’t blitz someone as slow as Tsunade he certainly isn’t hitting anyone else in the kage tier, so he’s no threat to any of them in most combat situations and he has no ranged Jutsu or support so therefore he’s an Elite Jounin at best

Basically PA Naruto’s shadow clone is stronger than him, because it can at least sense for somebody (SM) and technically has ranged technique with SCOR (extends beyond his wingspan well into mid range) and Ei4 can’t hit it either since the clone should be faster than Tsunade when in SM, so yea one of Naruto’s mid manga shadow clones is stronger than a Raikage who knew

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

Have yet to see an argument that addresses how Tsunade will even regen her head if the *source* of her Byakugō - her FOREHEAD - is removed from her body

How do you reconcile that

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

blk said:


> This doesn't make sense.
> 
> If her regeneration is so quick to prevent tissue separation from such high impact hits, she wouldn't have been bisected for example.


at that point she no longer had regeneration activated. that's the point. obvious that if it is not activated she can be cut and dismembered 
but likely would survive like we saw

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sage King (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I disagree. When humans travel accelerating too fast should supposedly kill them instantly. Ay has shown that he can travel really fast to deliver stronger blows however Tsunade is able to output that type of force while standing still and can even hit harder. She doesn't have to fully tank the blow to survive it obviously and based on Ay's statement while Byakugou is active she is more likely to tire out than outright die which is why Orochimaru claimed to be envious of it.
> 
> If Ay's attacks are linear they are easier to predict which through Sakura we know that she is more than capable of doing. As we have seen multiple times Tsunade is more than willing to trade blows in order to land a hit. Which she would likely accomplish considering all she needs is one touch that seriously damage him.
> 
> ...



Well we are not talking of normal humans here are we?
I mean when Tsunade had heavenly transfer used on her, she didn't have her seal active.
She activated the seal to heal her injuries AFTER she arrived at the battlefield.
So it's not like the transfer technique was used while simultaneously Tsunade had her regeneration technique released.
So like I said, she didn't and hasn't instantly regenerated from her limbs being chopped off which Ay 4 can definitely do.
Let alone with the force that Ay generate from his chops.

Well against Madara clones Tsunade was getting stabbed not bisected. 
I mean if Tsunade could regenerate her head. Then her ability to do that would have been showcased against Madara no?
I mean having your head chopped and regenerate>>>>fighting while impaled.
It could have been the best opportunity for the byakugo regeneration though.
But it didn't happen.
Her best feats was closing holes poked by Edo madara Susanoo clones

Well if you try to impale her that's leaving yourself open for her attacks not the same with if one can chop or have physical strength to send Tsunade flying.
Ay while not physically as strong as Tsunade can definitely send Tsunade flying.
Also Tsunade isn't exchanging blows against Ay 4 in v2 bruh.

Ay 4 didn't know if Naruto was a speedster. That's why he was handling him using v1
He was even surprised when Naruto surpassed him in speed.
So yes Ay 4 bringing Tsunade to stop Bee and Naruto had nothing to do with speed.
He wanted to stop Naruto by any means. Which included Tsunade talking some sense into Naruto.
Yes they had to attack them since talking to them had become.
 meaningless.

Well, my point is Ay has enough force to send her flying with a chop.
Since he moved something as dense a Susanoo with a chop.
Then he can definitely send her flying.


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## blk (Jun 12, 2021)

Somehow a character with no speed feats or hype whatsoever can now keep up with a character whose all raison d'etre was being the fastest man in the world and passing the title to Naruto when he mastered KCM 




Tsunade should surpass Jonin Kabuto's cqc skills before challenging actual strong characters like A4

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 3 | Lewd 1


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> @FlamingRain
> 
> Tagged for flaming


I've already said. tag as well. I'll make a new profile if I feel like it

Reactions: Like 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

Making new profiles to defend Tsunade's honor to the death

Sanninband fr

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Making new profiles to defend Tsunade's honor to the death
> 
> Sanninband fr


Im not defending tsunade, im defending the truth


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## ShinboiDood (Jun 12, 2021)

Nali said:


> Im not defending tsunade, im defending the truth


Who wins these fights.

Tsunade vs Orochimaru
Tsunade vs SM Naruto(PA)
Tsunade vs SM Jman
Tsunade vs Kisame
Tsunade vs Ohnoki

(pls say what dif as well)


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

Great thread btw OP, entertainment galore

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> If he doesn’t have better speed he can’t beat her - since she hits harder and regenerates. There’s no way he can win.


Who said he never had speed over her?


DaVizWiz said:


> He was only the strongest because of his speed though. If he can’t blitz his opponent he can’t harm them, which means he’s no threat to them- powerless. So if there was another Jounin in the village that he couldn’t blitz - he’s weaker than them, period. He can’t harm them.


Definitely not what it means. Even if we say he is unable to blitz people he is still incredibly fast, extremely strong (able to crack Madara's susanoo a bit but treated Sasuke's like it was a coke can), extremely durable (there aren't too many attacks that can do serious damage to him especially with his chakra shroud), and an incredible amount of chakra. Need I also remind you that speed isn't the only determining factor in a battle. So I feel like a lot of this is exaggeration on your part.


DaVizWiz said:


> Never said you did, but having ranged techniques helps against A4 because all he can do is run in to try and punch you Therefore Tsunade, who doesn’t have any ranged techniques, is a bettter target for A4 than most other kage.


Ranged attacks mean absolutely nothing to someone like A4 for the most part since he should be able to dodge them for the most part. Tsunade doesn't have any but she operates in the same range he does. So while at first glance it seems beneficial for him. When you see that she is stronger, has pretty high durability (not to the same extent of course), extremely unnatural resilience, powerful and reliable regeneration, a summon incredibly resistant to physical attacks, decent speed with Byakugou, and a massive amount of chakra. It doesn't look as good as it did before


DaVizWiz said:


> You think Tsunade is as fast as lightened Ei? Jeez, you must think this march is a joke then. She should be able to just blitz Ei4 - and by extension most of the kage class. I never knew Tsunade was the fastest in the world, you’d think the DB or a character would’ve mentioned that she was fast at some point.


Where did I say she was as fast as lightened Ay? I could of almost swore that never came out of my mouth. I said she was fast enough to coordinate with him while he was lightened. No where does that mean just as fast? You are purposefully hyperbolizing what I said. Please if you're going to do that I'd rather not engage you.


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## Impulse (Jun 12, 2021)

blk said:


> Can someone tell me how Tsunade survives getting her head exploded by a V2 punch, that she cannot even mentally perceive let alone physically react to?


She doesn't if Tsunade loses her head she dies

Where this idea that she regrow her head especially if her mark is on her forehead


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## Nali (Jun 12, 2021)

people have gone mad because we have put tsunade against A and we validly support her victory. I live for this. Stay mad lol


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## AllheavenParagon (Jun 12, 2021)

A4 smashes her head off 

Tsunade might not get outright blitzed by V2 A4, she can react to him here and there (pretty much anyone in the mid-high kage tier can imo) but will have difficulty doing so.

She sure as shit ain't landing a hit on him. 

She doesn't have any feats of regenerating her head... and even if she can, all that does is make her a regenerative punching bag

A4 wins either way.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

Impulse785 said:


> Where this idea that she regrow her head especially if her mark is on her forehead



Her technique is said to be able to regrow _anything_ making up the body. If you say _"any organs/parts/tissues"_ that encompasses the head. Nowhere has an exception such as the head been implied. If anything the implications go the other way.

When she releases the seal the Chakra floods her entire body. It doesn't remain in the space behind her forehead only being pulled out when she is wounded.

Reactions: Winner 5 | Informative 1 | Useful 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> He can’t do that according to @SakuraLover16
> 
> He’s an Elite Jounin now, since he can’t blitz someone as slow as Tsunade he certainly isn’t hitting anyone else in the kage tier, so he’s no threat to any of them in most combat situations and he has no ranged Jutsu or support so therefore he’s an Elite Jounin at best


Oh please grow up. Durability feats say her head isn't exploded not to mention that while he charges V2 she activates Byakugou


ATastyMuffin said:


> Have yet to see an argument that addresses how Tsunade will even regen her head if the *source* of her Byakugō - her FOREHEAD - is removed from her body
> 
> How do you reconcile that


I've already adressed that and stated multiple times that I would never use the argument of regrowing her head in the first place. Once Byakugou is open all of the chakra that was stored is released into the body that's why the seal fades and is replaced with tattoos all over the body.


Sage King said:


> Well we are not talking of normal humans here are we?
> I mean when Tsunade had heavenly transfer used on her, she didn't have her seal active.
> She activated the seal to heal her injuries AFTER she arrived at the battlefield.
> So it's not like the transfer technique was used while simultaneously Tsunade had her regeneration technique released.


Well this has to deal with what DaVizWiz was arguing with me not what I was arguing with you about there you replying to this without looking at the context is pretty silly.

I know I've read the manga and poured over that scene for years that was a durability feats not a seal feat.


Sage King said:


> So like I said, she didn't and hasn't instantly regenerated from her limbs being chopped off which Ay 4 can definitely do.
> Let alone with the force that Ay generate from his chops


I didn't know Tsunade was going to stand absolutely still with her arms out to watch the Raikage cut them. Because he becomes faster he becomes more linear. Time doesn't stop while the Raikage powers up to do what he wants 


Sage King said:


> Well against Madara clones Tsunade was getting stabbed not bisected.


Look again the swords are nearly the entire width of her body.


Sage King said:


> I mean if Tsunade could regenerate her head. Then her ability to do that would have been showcased against Madara no?


That logic could apply to anyone and anything in the series no? The battle was also largely off panel no? The Raikage still believed she was more likely to tire out than be killed right?


Sage King said:


> I mean having your head chopped and regenerate>>>>fighting while impaled.
> It could have been the best opportunity for the byakugo regeneration though.
> But it didn't happen.
> Her best feats was closing holes poked by Edo madara Susanoo clones


Now now let's not diminish feats. I've already mentioned this above anyways. It was implied she could also fix her bisection by herself.


Sage King said:


> Well if you try to impale her that's leaving yourself open for her attacks not the same with if one can chop or have physical strength to send Tsunade flying.
> Ay while not physically as strong as Tsunade can definitely send Tsunade flying.
> Also Tsunade isn't exchanging blows against Ay 4 in v2 bruh.


What stops Tsunade from bracing herself with chakra so she isn't sent flying? She's strong enough to block the blow no? Also Katsuyu no diffs any V2 onslaught


Sage King said:


> So yes Ay 4 bringing Tsunade to stop Bee and Naruto had nothing to do with speed.
> He wanted to stop Naruto by any means. Which included Tsunade talking some sense into Naruto.
> Yes they had to attack them since talking to them had become.
> meaningless.


So basically asking for her help to take them out meant he believed that she would be able to handle herself despite the jins being speedsters


Sage King said:


> Well, my point is Ay has enough force to send her flying with a chop.
> Since he moved something as dense a Susanoo with a chop.
> Then he can definitely send her flying.


My point is she is strong enough to brace herself and block his attack right. He moved something as dense as Susanoo but she moved and broke Susanoo.


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## Shazam (Jun 12, 2021)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Great thread btw OP, entertainment galore



You've offered nothing here, like in most threads (aside from the repeat emoticon). But thanks!

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Oh please grow up. Durability feats say her head isn't exploded not to mention that while he charges V2 she activates Byakugou
> 
> I've already adressed that and stated multiple times that I would never use the argument of regrowing her head in the first place. Once Byakugou is open all of the chakra that was stored is released into the body that's why the seal fades and is replaced with tattoos all over the body.
> 
> ...


It’s immature to tell the man that tsunade is as fast as the Raikage?

@FlamingRain I’m getting a bit annoyed by these superfans tossing insults around. If only we had someone to moderate a debate, make it so people don’t talk shit just because someone else disagrees. Oh moderation, where art thou? Accountability, why did you leave?


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 12, 2021)

I still believe how Tsunade's regen works is still debatable but some of the anti-Tsunade posters are being legit dishonest in this thread. Nothing more annoying than seeing them accuse the Sannin band or Tsunade stans of bias while not actually countering their arguments. 

Half of the posts about why she can't counter this or that boil down to nothing more than "OMFG you Tsunade stans believe she can regen a head! How ridiculous what a wanker " despite her saying she can regenerate all organs and limbs that makeup the human body. 

Or "LMAO they think Tsunade can react to A4's speed! How absurd and sad! He would just blitz and one-shot her!" even though A4 asked her to assist him against Naruto and B, Tsunade as well as the other Kage have no issue coordinating attacks with not only A4 himself but also when he's lightened by Onoki, and A4 said himself he didn't believe she could die when up against five Susanoo clones that are more lethal than A is. 

Yet, the ones arguing in Tsunade's favor are the biased ones here. Half of the posts of the opposition sound like children throwing a temper tantrum because they can't actually counter anything. The typical dishonesty seen in the posters who love criticizing the Sannin band.


SakuraLover16 said:


> I read it different to me Madara compared the techniques because of the ability to heal without seals. Looking at the severe injuries she's already healed on panel they a thousand times over equal a limb. However it's through the Raikage's words that make my eyebrows raise a bit and that was him saying even if you can't die you'll tire yourself out. Those words come from the moment where we were first introduced to the technique we believed that it was a hyperbole but what if it isn't? Remember in chapter 169 Orochimaru states that it's a form of immortality that he was envious of or so that's what I remember from one translation. So in my opinion Kishi is sending so many mixed signals. The true nature of Byakugou also has yet to be revealed in Boruto though so I'm just waiting to see what happens


I haven't read the databook entries I was citing in a while tbh, I'll go check them soon and post them here. If it actually meant just in terms of hand seals that'd make sense.

Reactions: Like 2


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> It’s immature to tell the man that tsunade is as fast as the Raikage?
> 
> @FlamingRain I’m getting a bit annoyed by these superfans tossing insults around. If only we had someone to moderate a debate, make it so people don’t talk shit just because someone else disagrees. Oh moderation, where art thou? Accountability, why did you leave?



Just telling someone to grow up is tame enough to be left alone.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Just telling someone to grow up is tame enough to be left alone.


But if you said that to me in a bar I swing and don’t stop until you’re not upright anymore 

Surely it’s misconduct on a debate board


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> But if you said that to me in a bar I swing and don’t stop until you’re not upright anymore
> 
> Surely it’s misconduct on a debate board



No that just means you're too eager to punch someone.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I still believe how Tsunade's regen works is still debatable but some of the anti-Tsunade posters are being legit dishonest in this thread. Nothing more annoying than seeing them accuse the Sannin band or Tsunade stans of bias while not actually countering their arguments.
> 
> Half of the posts about why she can't counter this or that boil down to nothing more than "OMFG you Tsunade stans believe she can regen a head! How ridiculous what a wanker " despite her saying she can regenerate all organs and limbs that makeup the human body.
> 
> ...


Bu-but when head gone person die, when die regen no work

Regen seal on head, if head gone seal on it gone so regen gone

Bu-but “God Speed” Minato barely avoid A4 fist that touch his nose, now Tsunade avoid A4 fist?

My brain hurt

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> No that just means you're too eager to punch someone.


So in that instance, you what, put your beer down and walk out?

If your girlfriend doesn’t want to go, you what, drink next to the guy who told you to grow up for the rest of the night, and then your girlfriend brings up how that guy at the bar made you his bitch and you did nothing the next time you two fight?

Eek 

Best  to just throw that punch bud

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> It’s immature to tell the man that tsunade is as fast as the Raikage?


No it's immature to pretend like you aren't strawmanning while being condescending.


Isaiah13000 said:


> I still believe how Tsunade's regen works is still debatable but some of the anti-Tsunade posters are being legit dishonest in this thread. Nothing more annoying than seeing them accuse the Sannin band or Tsunade stans of bias while not actually countering their arguments.


That's what I'm saying. Even now despite being nothing but charitible I'm not receiving the same charitability. You disagree with me fine but damn. There are like 5 different people I have to respond to at the same time as well.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Half of the posts about why she can't counter this or that boil down to nothing more than "OMFG you Tsunade stans believe she can regen a head! How ridiculous what a wanker " despite her saying she can regenerate all organs and limbs that makeup the human body.


Not only that but it's usually the same old tired stuff that is adressed in the techniques. For example the argument that even while activated the chakra is still stored in her head even though it's said to be all released into the body.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Or "LMAO they think Tsunade can react to A4's speed! How absurd and sad! He would just blitz and one-shot her!" even though A4 asked her to assist him against Naruto and B, Tsunade as well as the other Kage have no issue coordinating attacks with not only A4 himself but also when he's lightened by Onoki, and A4 said himself he didn't believe she could die when up against five Susanoo clones that are more lethal than A is.


Not only this but the second you say coordinate it's "YOURE SAYING SHE IS FASTER THAN A4" despite not doing so and reiterating and making my stance as clear as possible each time.


Isaiah13000 said:


> Yet, the ones arguing in Tsunade's favor are the biased ones here. Half of the posts of the opposition sound like children throwing a temper tantrum because they can't actually counter anything. The typical dishonesty seen in the posters who love criticizing the Sannin band.


I mean I say one thing and it turns into a whole different thing. I say multiple times she could regenerate a head in theory and that I would never use regenerating her head as an argument to why she wins. It turns into "LOLOL THEY THINK SHE CAN REGEN A HEAD WHILE FIGHTING". I create a decently descriptive reason as to why I believe Tsunade's wins saying why what abilities work and don't work. "AY BLITZES AND BEHEADS HER GG". Like come on and we are supposedly the horrible ones.


Isaiah13000 said:


> HI haven't read the databook entries I was citing in a while tbh, I'll go check them soon and post them here. If it actually meant just in terms of hand seals that'd make sense.


Well when Madara compared them he basically said healing without handseal just like Hashirama or something like that. Tsunade mentions not being able to die when she introduced the technique. Ay tells Tsunade even if she can't die she would tire herself out fighting the way she was. To me it seems like it becomes a bit more abstract each time it's mentioned.

Reactions: Like 2


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> No it's immature to pretend like you aren't strawmanning while being condescending.
> 
> That's what I'm saying. Even now despite being nothing but charitible I'm not receiving the same charitability. You disagree with me fine but damn. There are like 5 different people I have to respond to at the same time as well.
> 
> ...


I wasn’t pretending though, I believe you, Tsunade is as fast as the Raikage and the Raikage IS an Elite Jounin at best

With speeds too slow to hit Tsunade, we know that he isn’t hitting any kage levels, at least not reliably, therefore EJ at best


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

There you go again and then you wonder why I said what I said.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> There you go again and then you wonder why I said what I said.


Would you have preferred if I said your point is one of the most radically idiotic ones I’ve seen in the past year in this section, there’s no way your brain is fully developed if you say this, and that you should be ashamed of yourself?

If I said this I would be teetering on insulting you, but just teetering, it’s.. how we say, “still tame” ~Flaming Rain


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 12, 2021)

What is going on in this thread lmao


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Would you have preferred if I said your point is one of the most radically idiotic ones I’ve seen in the past year in this section, there’s no way your brain is fully developed if you say this, and that you should be ashamed of yourself?
> 
> If I said this I would be teetering on insulting you, but just teetering, it’s.. how we say, “still tame” ~Flaming Rain



That's not teetering.
Telling someone there's no way their brain is fully developed obviously goes further than saying grow up.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Would you have preferred if I said your point is one of the most radically idiotic ones I’ve seen in the past year in this section, there’s no way your brain is fully developed if you say this, and that you should be ashamed of yourself?


Telling you to stop being childish after giving clear clarification which you purposefully decided to ignore in order to continue being condescending. Is supposedly the same as you saying I must be mentally underdeveloped because I disagree with your interpretation of how the matchup would go. Pretty sure those aren't really the same.


DaVizWiz said:


> If I said this I would be teetering on insulting you, but just teetering, it’s.. how we say, “still tame” ~Flaming Rain


Yep still pretty sure that's not the same.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> That's not teetering.
> Telling someone there's no way their brain is fully developed obviously goes further than saying grow up.


Okay we’ll exclude that one.

Now @SakuraLover16 although I may believe those things I wouldn’t usually say it. Obviously you wouldn’t prefer me to either.

To be clear I try to be condescending when I think a super fan has said something outrageously radical just to defend their favorite fable character who doesn’t exist


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Now @SakuraLover16 *although I may believe those things* I wouldn’t usually say it. Obviously you wouldn’t prefer me to either.


Pretty sure this strongly undermines the rest of your sentence. Would have just been easier to say you meant it and move on.

Anyways I'm not too concerned on how you deem my mental faculties. Having recently finished three and a half years of grueling college coursework to work in healthcare.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Jun 12, 2021)

Tsunade has no chance to win. 

Zero, nada, nothing. 

It's completely impossible. 

@FlamingRain agrees but is afraid to admit it to not get backlash from the Tsunade horde.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

blk said:


> Tsunade has no chance to win.
> 
> Zero, nada, nothing.
> 
> ...



I would say I don't know what you're basing that on but then I remembered you admit to trolling fans of Tsunade so the answer is nothing at all.

My opinion on this fight predates the other fans of Tsunade in this thread and I've argued against her in many other threads before.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 12, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Bu-but when head gone person die, when die regen no work
> 
> Regen seal on head, if head gone seal on it gone so regen gone
> 
> ...


I've seen others in this thread and other threads counter these points already, yet you keep arguing this so I don't wanna waste my own time doing the same. Its very bizarre how you frequently love pushing your clearly incorrect headcanon theories over what is actually established in canon to be honest.


SakuraLover16 said:


> No it's immature to pretend like you aren't strawmanning while being condescending.
> 
> That's what I'm saying. Even now despite being nothing but charitible I'm not receiving the same charitability. You disagree with me fine but damn. There are like 5 different people I have to respond to at the same time as well.
> 
> ...


1. Yeah for sure, its why I seldom bother engaging in drawn out debates with posters like that. They clearly aren't worth my time and operate on dishonesty and criticizing others for not agreeing with their blatantly incorrect assumptions and opinions.

2. Here is what the databook entries say for reference.
Tsunade's DB2 entries:

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Yin Seal: Release* (Infuuin: Kai)​
Fuuinjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary
User(s): Tsunade
*Unravelling the key to using the Creation Rebirth!!*

Creation Rebirth, the ultimate medical technique. However, using this technique requires such an enormous amount of chakra, that it is beyond any shinobi to mould it in an instant. Tsunade, using the chakra stock kept in the seal on her forehead, has cleared this prerequisite. With Yin Seal: Release, the seal is released, becoming the source for the body regeneration technique.

The moment it is unsealed, a pattern appears on the forehead.

Releasing the seal is the greatest danger signal.

*Creation Rebirth *(Souzou Saisei)​
Ninjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary
User(s): Tsunade
*The absolute pinnacle of Medical Ninjutsu~~ a forbidden regeneration technique!*

Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body’s cell division is forcibly stimulated, reconstruction all organs and all tissues making up the human body!

If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It’s impossible to die by any means… for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one’s comrades. That’s the resolution hidden in this technique.

By releasing the great volume of chakra stored in her forehead, Tsunade can make her body do the work of an untold number of years in an instant.

*This wound may have brought her on the verge of death, but she won’t die~~*

The acceleration of cell division that allows for the complete recovery from wounds is paid for with the shortening of one’s life span.



Tsunade's DB4 entry:

Hashirama's entry that addresses his healing:

*Spoiler*: __ 





*[Healing Ability]*

Further worthy of admiration is his recovery ability. Commanding high-level ninja healing arts, he can heal wounds even without making hand gestures. His body itself brimming with vitality, those with Hashirama’s cells have heightened healing ability. To this day, there is no ninja existing who surpasses this power.


*[Hashirama’s sought-after cells… in Madara… in Orochimaru]

Hashirama’s artificial body of Madara’s creation*

The unparalleled recovery ability of Hashirama’s body could even exhibit that ability in the bodies of others. Madara lived on by transplanting into a wound Hashirama’s cells that he obtained in the Battle of the Valley of the End. In addition, by using the Demonic Statue as a catalyst, he cultivated living cells to create an artificial body of Hashirama. Even the critically wounded Obito healed his injuries by transplanting half of an artificial body.

Hashirama’s face appears wherever his cells have been implanted. The cells are alive, but have no awareness.

*[As a result of Orochimaru’s human experiments…]*

For Orochimaru, who had an insatiable desire for immortality, Hashirama?s regenerative abilities were a critical target of research. In order to make the power hidden in the cells his, he repeated experiments and misused them for the development of forbidden arts. Yamato, the founder’s clone, was an unfortunate product of this. That unrivaled characteristic was one of the substantiating factors for Hashirama being the strongest ninja.

Thirsty for Senju’s power, Danzou buries Hashirama’s cells deep into his own body.

The current reborn Orochimaru. Most of his body is made up of cells from Hashirama.




*Conclusion:*
This could be interpreted as Hashirama's ability being unsurpassed because of its inherent automatic nature, as opposed to its power itself, as that's the only thing that makes any sense: considering both Tsunade and Orochimaru's are superior. Otherwise, its clearly wrong and makes no sense with the rest of the series. Even Tsunade's DB entry cites how hers is the same in the sense of not requiring hand seals, as does Madara in the manga:

This, combined with the fact that the description of Tsunade's Seal and Creation Rebirth hasn't actually changed at all in DB4 since DB2 would mean it hasn't actually been retconned either. So this is the best conclusion to come too based on this to me, Tsunade and Orochimaru's regeneration is superior to Hashirama's in actual regeneration, except his superior due to its natural automatic nature of healing on its own without hand seals or conscious input: which Tsunade can only replicate with her Strength of a Hundred Jutsu.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Kage 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> This, combined with the fact that the description of Tsunade's Seal and Creation Rebirth hasn't actually changed at all in DB4 since DB2 would mean it hasn't actually been retconned either. So this is the best conclusion to come too based on this to me, Tsunade and Orochimaru's regeneration is superior to Hashirama's in actual regeneration, except his superior due to its natural automatic nature of healing on its own without hand seals or conscious input: which Tsunade can only replicate with her Strength of a Hundred Jutsu.


That's pretty much my level of thought I always thought it was weird that it was unsurpassed but it's inherent to his very cells versus an actual jutsu. Your interpretation makes the most sense I feel looking at all of the available data. I bolded what stood out to me the most.

Databook 2 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, *this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! *By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body’s cell division is forcibly stimulated, reconstruction *all* organs and *all* tissues making up the human body!
> 
> If this technique is used, a body whose *vital organs are so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It’s impossible to die by any means… *for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one’s comrades. That’s the resolution hidden in this technique.


Databook four is largely the same


What sticks out the most is:
Can always regenerate the body, her wounds recover completely and even her own power rises, as well as her body can go back immediately to her unwounded state. 

The only outlier seems to be unless she suffered a serious wound but that's contradictory to everything else. The only way it makes sense is if it's talking about the speed of the healing. All the wounds she sustained with Byakugou would be considered serious and fatal otherwise.

Of course one thing that could be brought up is Tsunade's bisection however we learned both from seeing the state of the seal and from Katsuyu. That Tsunade could have easily healed herself however if she did so the other Kage would have likely died.

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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The only outlier seems to be unless she suffered a serious wound but that's contradictory to everything else. The only way it makes sense is if it's talking about the speed of the healing. All the wounds she sustained with Byakugou would be considered serious and fatal otherwise.



It's referring to something disastrous enough to result in instantaneous death, not regeneration speed. It's what DB2 means when it mentions _"a body so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer"/"may have brought her on the verge of death, but she won't die."_

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ameno Angel (Jun 12, 2021)

This thread is at least annual


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> It's referring to something disastrous enough to result in instantaneous death, not regeneration speed. It's what DB2 means when it mentions _"a body so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer"/"may have on the verge of death but she won't die."_


You know what that makes a lot of sense. Attacks like that aren't something easy to come by anyways

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ameno Angel (Jun 12, 2021)

Read the whole thing, had a good laugh. 

Anyways, while Tsunade is slower than V2 A4, she is shown coordinating with a lightened V2 A4 when striking his ribcage susanoo midair so there is barely a difference in there speed when he’s not lightened.

As for reacting to him, A4 implied that she can aid in a fight against Killer Bee and KCM Naruto so I cannot see a reason as to why she wouldn’t react to him. 

Her 1 week byakugo stamina is blantantly shown outlasting him. 

All her physicals outrank his.

She can move with her a ripped spinal cord which should be virtually impossible for any human but here we are.

If A4 goes to chop her head with his linear movements, she should evade it at close range as she outdid Madara’s in CQC which seems more impressive combat-wise.

If Body Pathway Rearrangement touches the raikage when she counters his movements, he’s done for. If her kick touches him, he dies.

They are more or less on par but when you notice that the speed gap is NOT THAT BIG, Tsunade is the superior of the two.

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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Her technique is said to be able to regrow _anything_ making up the body. If you say _"any organs/parts/tissues"_ that encompasses the head.


1 - why didn't she regrow lower body half after being bisected by Mads?
2 - didn't show = cannot do.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> 1 - why didn't she regrow lower body half after being bisected by Mads?



She was exhausted. She was in base with a faded seal, bro.

We're only talking about when the Jutsu is active.



BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> 2 - didn't show = cannot do.



Only if a character doesn't show something in a situation where they ought to if they could, otherwise you'd eventually end up denying that most Kage can even walk on water.

It's because they haven't had to, and Tsunade similarly has not had to show regeneration of whatever parts you choose because they have not been removed on-panel.

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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 12, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Only if a character doesn't show something in a situation where they ought to if they could, otherwise you'd eventually end up denying that most Kage can even walk on water.
> 
> It's because they haven't had to, and Tsunade similarly has not had to show regeneration of whatever parts you choose because they have not been removed on-panel.


Then i can say Itachi takes Kaguya in genjutsu, he just didn't because he didn't have the chance. Sounds legit, right?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 12, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Then i can say Itachi takes Kaguya in genjutsu, he just didn't because he didn't have the chance. Sounds legit, right?



The difference is that there is no statement or implication that Itachi could place Kaguya in a Genjutsu and his ultimate Genjutsu was already broken by a vastly inferior Sasuke.

It matters who the Genjutsu is attempted on as defenses vary, it doesn't matter who removes a part of Tsunade because that's the same event either way.

A better comparison would be how Tsukuyomi has no feats of one-shotting a perfect Jinchūriki but it is stated that it would. Funny because most people trust that.


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

@FlamingRain Not that you'll ever convince me Tsunade can regrow a head, that's straight up bullshit but may i ask where it says she can regrow anything? by a character? simple pretention. in databook? kishi already made many exaggerations in databooks such as this:

No one who confronts Sasuke stands a chance of living, this version of Sasuke > narutoverse.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Alita (Jun 13, 2021)

I don't buy tsunade being able to regen from decapitation so A4 wins easily here.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> @FlamingRain Not that you'll ever convince me Tsunade can regrow a head, that's straight up bullshit but may i ask where it says she can regrow anything? by a character? simple pretention. in databook?



They've already been posted in this thread, but...




*Spoiler*: _DB2_ 




Genesis* Rebirth (創造再生, Souzou Saisei)
Ninjutsu, S-rank, Supplementary
User: Tsunade

The absolute pinnacle of medical ninjutsu~~ a "forbidden regeneration technique"!

Created by the greatest of medical ninja, Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated, *reconstruction all organs and all tissues making up the human body!*
If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means... for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades. That's the resolution hidden in this technique.

[picture of Tsunade releasing her Yin Seal** and performing this technique]
↑By releasing the great volume of chakra stored in her forehead, Tsunade can make her body do the work of an untold number of years in an instant.

This wound may have brought her on the verge of death, but she won't die~~

[picture of the wound on Tsunade's shoulder healing]
↑↓The acceleration of cell division that allows for the complete recovery from wounds is paid for with the shortening of one's life span.
[picture of the wound on Tsunade's chest healing]

*Souzou means "creation". Especially a deity's creation of the world and everything in it. It isn't specifically the Christian Genesis, though. It can be applied to any religion. For example, the creation of Japan by the gods Izanagi and Izanami in Shinto is also called "souzou". I simply chose to use the word "Genesis" because I like the sound of it.
**Yin Seal (陰封印, In Fuuin). The diamond-shaped seal on Tsunade's forehead.





*Spoiler*: _DB2 again_ 




Page 192 Medical Ninutsu

Black box on right:
忍博聞録・医療忍術
Shinobi Compendium ・　Medical ninjutsu

現在、忍達を守る盾として、広く使われている医療忍術。その発達の歴史と様々な特性を、ここに紐解く！
At present, medical ninjutsu are widely used as a shield to protect shinobi. The history of their development and various characteristics are revealed here!

Black diamonds:
源流　－　The beginning
転機　－　Turning point
確立　－　Establishment

Bold headings:
チャクラを用いて治療する技術
The technique of healing with chakra

戦争による体制の整備
Structure overhaul due to war

医療スペシャリストの組織化と病院の設立
The systemisation of medical specialists and the foundation of hospitals

Paragraphs:
医療忍術が術として確立される前にも、チャクラを使って傷を治療する技法は、忍の世界で一般的に使われていた。現在の医療忍術も、当時行われていたものと原理は同じだ。
Even before medical ninjutsu were established as a jutsu, a technique of using chakra to heal wounds was commonly used throughout the shinobi world. Modern medical ninjutsu are based on the same principles.

人の命を守るために発生した医療忍術は、皮肉にも戦争によって進歩した。死傷者の急増に、治療技術の開発、医療忍者の育成に注目が集まったのだ。
Medical ninjutsu, created to protect peoples lives, were ironically improved by the advent of war. The rapid increase of casualties caused a great interest in the development of new medical techniques and the training of medic ninja.

現在、医療忍術は戦闘に不可欠な忍術と認識されている。組織化された医療スペシャリスト達や機能化された病院が、里に住む者達を守っているのだ。
At present, medical ninjutsu are acknowledged as being essential in battle. The systemisation of medical specialists and the creation of functional hospitals helps to protect the villagers.

Pictures and captions:
(Pic of young Kakashi)↑医療忍術は古くから使われていた。綱手の若い頃には、すでに術としてあったようだ。
↑Medical ninjutsu have been used for a long time. It seems that when Tsunade was young, they were a recognised jutsu.

(Pic in forest) 綱手・・・
Tsunade

↑忍界大戦などの戦乱は、多くの犠牲者を出すことになった・・・。
↑The Shinobi world war and other conflicts gave rise to many victims

(3rd pic) そのうちの一人に医療スペシャリストを配備することで
By assigning one member of the team as a medical specialist,

小隊の生存率　任務成功率は大幅にアップするはずです
the survival rate and mission success rate should greatly increase.

←綱手は小隊に医療忍者を加える提案をするなど、医療忍術の発展に貢献した。
←Tsunade contributed to the advancement of medical ninjustu, suggesting the addition of a medical ninja to each team.

↓木ノ葉病院は充実した設備を誇る、里の宝でもある。
↓Konoha Hospital is has considerable facilities and is a treasure to the village.

↓清潔で機能的な病院内。多くの忍が、ここで傷を癒す。
↓The sanitary and functional inside of the hospital where many shinobi heal their wounds.

MEDICAL JUTSUS pg 193-194
Pg 193

Aptitude
The medical way that needs a talent different from ninjutsu.

(Pic of Tsunade)
Its a different type of skill from combat. The greatest control of the smallest amount of charka, great professional knowledge, and the brains and dedication to use them.

The biggest problem with medical jutsus are their particularities. Meticulous chakra control is needed and thus a natural aptitude is needed for users. These are why it takes a long time to develop and there arent many medical ninjas.

Difficulty: Medical Jutsus and their possibilities and limits.

The greater the wound, the greater the ability needed. Also, its effects are not unlimited and reviving the dead is impossible.

Wounds and their healing difficulties
Scratches and stab wounds: difficulty 1
Broken bones, muscle and severed tendons: difficulty 2
Great damage to the body: difficulty 3
Death: impossibility

Regrowing a damaged organ is also an impossibility.

(Pic of Sandaime)
Even if Tsunade uses medical jutsus it is impossible to grow a whole organ. My kidneys have been blasted. Its the end.

(Pic of two hands grabbing the legs)
Incision healing using charka scalpel

Incision healing using charka scalpel can also be used for attacks!

Types: Various medical jutsus

Healing of external wounds using charka
(Pic of Naruto with a hand on his chest)
Procedure of putting chakra on the body and healing wounds

Healing using owner seals
Using owner seals to control chakra levels and flow.


The Ultimate medical jutsu
(Pic of a bloody Tsunade)
Ive been gathering chakra in my forehead for a long time and I can use it to prompt proteins to speed up cell generation and regeneration.
*An ability that is not about healing but about regeneration. It can remake all organs and parts.*








BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> kishi already made many exaggerations in databooks such as this:
> 
> No one who confronts Sasuke stands a chance of living, this version of Sasuke > narutoverse.



That's equivalent to Tsunade being unkillable, not to Sōzō Saisei rebuilding anything. Rebuilding any part is what the Jutsu does, making it impossible to die is hyperbole.

Reactions: Winner 8 | Informative 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> That's equivalent to Tsunade being unkillable


ok, sounds like some type of trolling.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> @FlamingRain Not that you'll ever convince me Tsunade can regrow a head, that's straight up bullshit but may i ask where it says she can regrow anything? by a character? simple pretention. in databook? kishi already made many exaggerations in databooks such as this:
> 
> No one who confronts Sasuke stands a chance of living, this version of Sasuke > narutoverse.


 Yet another person who can't tell the difference between actual jutsu mechanics and clear hyperbole.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 4


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 13, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I've seen others in this thread and other threads counter these points already, yet you keep arguing this so I don't wanna waste my own time doing the same. Its very bizarre how you frequently love pushing your clearly incorrect headcanon theories over what is actually established in canon to be honest.
> 
> 1. Yeah for sure, its why I seldom bother engaging in drawn out debates with posters like that. They clearly aren't worth my time and operate on dishonesty and criticizing others for not agreeing with their blatantly incorrect assumptions and opinions.
> 
> ...


No, they gave their own opinion on it. If it had been countered I wouldn’t be saying it.


Ameno Angel said:


> Read the whole thing, had a good laugh.
> 
> Anyways, while Tsunade is slower than V2 A4, she is shown coordinating with a lightened V2 A4 when striking his ribcage susanoo midair so there is barely a difference in there speed when he’s not lightened.
> 
> ...


Ei flying through air because Onoki granted him flight isn’t Lightened Ei4’s speed, it’s slower than Onoki flight speed, this is common sense, Tsunade wouldn’t keep up with Ei4’s V1 speed that chased down KCM Naruto repeatedly, let alone a lightened V2 flicker that blitzed Madara

Your analysis falters at the foundations right at the start


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> actual jutsu mechanics


Show tsunade growing a head on panel ok yea


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## Prince Idonojie (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Show tsunade growing a head on panel ok yea


Don't be obtuse. Even Orochimaru actually goes gaga over Tsunade's superior regenerative ability, and you also have both manga and databook description confirming what it does. If it's cellular damage, her jutsu's regen automatically got it covered.


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

It's so stupid to read these comments about tsunade regening her head when all the chakra that is used for byakugou is focused in forehead. 
By feats all she can regen is holes in body and make 2 bisected parts connect, but tsunade fans are giving her more than she can.


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## Speedyamell (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> It's so stupid to read these comments about tsunade regening her head when all the chakra that is used for byakugou is focused in forehead.
> By feats all she can regen is holes in body and make 2 bisected parts connect, but tsunade fans are giving her more than she can.


You're the only one making stupid comments. It has been addressed at least 20 times that when byakugō is released, the chakra is spread all over the body and not just contained in the head.
"By feats all she can regenerate is hole in the body" when tsunade has ignored and healed spine damage which is quite complex and has statements clarifying she can regenerate any organs and body part.
Meanwhile you despite apparently being mr feats is clamouring for A4 beheading tsunade when that is also something he hasn't done on panel

Reactions: Winner 4


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

Ya'll act like Tsunade should have randomly ripped her own head off for the sake of a regeneration feat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jun 13, 2021)

Doesn't the databook state that she can regenerate from any wound _as long as it's a not a serious one_?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

Madara with Hashi's healing: needs zetsu's arm to connect it to his body.
Tsunade fans: Tsunade has JJ regen.
Freakshow circus.

And back to main topic, Raikage fortnite dances in front of Tsunade, then when she gets angry and tries hitting him, Raikage blitzes her from the back and does something like this:

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

Hasan said:


> Doesn't the databook state that she can regenerate from any wound _as long as it's a not a serious one_?



You have to define "serious" for someone with Byakugō - Sōzō Saisei.

Most people would already count just about everything Tsunade went through as serious.


I think that sentence is just a reiteration of _"a body so gravely injured that it cannot bear it any longer"/"may have brought her on the verge of death, but she won't die."_

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Impulse (Jun 13, 2021)

So Tsunade lose her head she can just regrow it that would take time would it not anyway you don't think Raikage would let her do that?
Not on topic but Reverse Flash


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## Sage King (Jun 13, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Well this has to deal with what DaVizWiz was arguing with me not what I was arguing with you about there you replying to this without looking at the context is pretty silly.
> 
> I know I've read the manga and poured over that scene for years that was a durability feats not a seal feat.
> 
> ...



As I said Ay becoming linear doesn't mean Tsunade can hit him in v2.
Also it's no like Ay will chop her limb by limb.
He can just target her neck or waist.
And bisect them in one go.
Tsunade's punches are not instant. She has to swing her arm to hit Ay.
In which case Ay can dodge her punch point blank like he did to amaterasu and plow Tsunade with the fist or chop her head off.
And also Ay isn't a bullet. He can stop himself just like he did to the amaterasu that Sasuke had coated his Susanoo with.
In other words I mean he can dodge her punches also with ease and proceed to chop.

The key word is "nearly". Those swords were in her midsection.
Ay can bisect a bijuu horn with a single chop.
And was shown sending a ribcage Susanoo flying using chops.
And can send her  body parts flying away from each other.
The thing is Tsunade has never dealt with an opponent that is as fast a Ay, strong who can chop things like a ribcage Susanoo, 8 tails horns and send them flying.

Tsunade being able to block v2 Ay blows with her hands(which she can't due to speed difference)=/= failing to be moved after Ay punches her head.
It was made clearly that Sasuke had to camp in his Susanoo because of that he couldn't keep up with Ay's movements.
Ninjas that have reacted to v2 Ay 4 are all faster than Tsunade.
Tsunade isn't reacting to v2 Ay 4 attacking her.

Otherwise you would have to show Tsunade using a strategy, not only that but also show feats of Tsunade standing her ground after being punched by something as that can punch as hard as Ay 4.
 And after Ay 4 realises that a punch cannot work.
Then he can opt for chops.

Well Katsuyu cannot keep up with v2 Ay at all. Unless you think Ay isn't going to realises that Katsuyu can't be killed and wait for Tsunade to come out.

As I mentioned Ay4 wasn't aware of Naruto's abilities let alone speed.
That fight wasn't an all out fight. He went all out as a desperate measure.
Besides how did Ay come to know that Tsunade was a speedster when they never fought together until the madara fight, or that Naruto was speedster?

Also are you saying that Ay 4 might have noticed Tsunade getting her head chopped off panel in order to conclude that she was unkillable?

Well she can block( when not factoring speed) using her hands not any other part of the body.
In which case Ay can avoid her hands and plow her head.
Or chops though her.
Well Tsunade breaking the Susanoo have to do with what I said.
Well she isn't, unless Tsunade punching the Susanoo has anything to do with stopping herself from being launched by Ay's fist then no she isn't strong to brace herself for Ay's fist.


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Ei4 can tank Tsunade's punches


No, he can't.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tsunade's regeneration is on par with Hashirama's


It was not, Madara simply noted her ability to heal was like his in that it lacked hand signs.

He never compared the two in efficiency.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> That does not make it acceptable.


Truly unbiased moderating, how respectable.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> No, he can't.


Yes, he can.


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Yes, he can.


Nope. He can't tank his own hits, and she hits provably harder. Simple.


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> He can't tank his own hits


What?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

CES > Kajūgan Raigyaku Suihei > Raigyaku Suihei > Ay's body.


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> What?


A can harm himself + Tsunade is stronger = Tsunade can harm A.

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> A can harm himself + Tsunade is stronger = Tsunade can harm A.


You're just gonna spew headcanon and think I'll blindly accept it? We can end the debate here if so.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

Sage King said:


> As I said Ay becoming linear doesn't mean Tsunade can hit him in v2.


Doesn't mean she can't either the fact that she is able to analyze and memorize attack patterns makes it easier for her to guess what he'll do next.


Sage King said:


> Also it's no like Ay will chop her limb by limb.
> He can just target her neck or waist.
> And bisect them in one go.


Tsunade has been implied to survive and heal from bisection the fact that she was separated by a tree points that out.


Sage King said:


> Tsunade's punches are not instant. She has to swing her arm to hit Ay.


Ay has to make contact in order to hit her so his aren't quite instant either are they?


Sage King said:


> In which case Ay can dodge her punch point blank like he did to amaterasu and plow Tsunade with the fist or chop her head off.


He dodged it while stationary if he is charging at her he can't dodge.


Sage King said:


> And also Ay isn't a bullet. He can stop himself just like he did to the amaterasu that Sasuke had coated his Susanoo with.


If he stops he leaves himself open to attack


Sage King said:


> In other words I mean he can dodge her punches also with ease and proceed to chop.


So again to land a hit he has to make contact when he makes contact he opens himself up to trade blows.


Sage King said:


> The key word is "nearly". Those swords were in her midsection.


The swords covered her entire midsection including her spine for all intents and purposes she would've been paralysed.


Sage King said:


> Ay can bisect a bijuu horn with a single chop.


We've already been over this so there is no need to do so again.


Sage King said:


> And was shown sending a ribcage Susanoo flying using chops.


Tsunade has shattered a stronger ribcage Susanoo. If she would have hit Sasuke's he likely would have died.


Sage King said:


> And can send her body parts flying away from each other.


Madara would have thought that useful no?


Sage King said:


> Tsunade being able to block v2 Ay blows=/= failing to be moved after Ay punches her head.


If she is stronger and has already shown to use chakra to brace herself he likely isn't sending her flying.


Sage King said:


> It was made clearly that Sasuke had to camp in his Susanoo because of that he couldn't keep up with Ay's movements.


Sasuke also lacked the durability to take a direct hit from Ay the same can't be said for Tsunade.


Sage King said:


> Ninjas that have reacted to v2 Ay 4 are all faster than Tsunade.
> Tsunade isn't reacting to v2 Ay 4 attacking her.


This is the same woman who directly after instantaneous light speed teleportation was able to see and kick Madara beneath his guard. Ay's speed does not make him untouchable.


Sage King said:


> Otherwise you would have to show Tsunade using a strategy, not only that but also show feats of Tsunade standing her ground after being punched by something as that can punch as hard as Ay 4.
> And after Ay 4 realises that a punch cannot work.
> Then he can opt for chops.


Are you going to show feats of Ay chopping a head off? If not don't ask for feats. I fail to see why going for her head is any more valid. Especially since that was no where stated or implied to be the flaw of her regeneration.


Sage King said:


> Well Katsuyu cannot keep up with v2 Ay at all.


Why would she need to? She can just as easily defend Tsunade or spread across the ground to make getting close nearly impossible.


Sage King said:


> As I mentioned Ay4 wasn't aware of Naruto's abilities let alone speed.
> That fight wasn't an all out fight.
> Besides how did Ay come to know that Tsunade was a speedster, or that Naruto was speedster?


It doesn't matter Bee is still a speedster. Also you don't have to be a speedster to fight a speedster.


Sage King said:


> Well she can block using her hands not any other part of the body.


And?


Sage King said:


> In which case Ay can avoid her hands and plow her head.
> Or chops though her


Avoid her hands how it's the same woman who cloaked her arms in chakra so that she would be able to knock huge and solid fire style jutsu away.


Sage King said:


> Well Tsunade breaking the Susanoo have to do with what I said.


?


Sage King said:


> Well she isn't, unless Tsunade punching the Susanoo has anything to do with stopping herself from being launched by Ay's fist then no she isn't strong to brace herself for Ay's fist.


I've already adressed this somewhere above.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> You're just gonna spew headcanon and think I'll blindly accept it? We can end the debate here if so.



Have you forgotten how Ay ended up with only one arm?

He cut it off.


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Have you forgotten how Ay ended up with only one arm?


No, I do remember it. He cut his bare arm with his Raiton-enhanced arm. Not impressive.

Certainly not as impressive as him using his best attacks on countless occasions and ending with no injuries on his own body whatsoever.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

Didn't Tsunade bare knuckle break Susanoo?


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Didn't Tsunade bare knuckle break Susanoo?


Yeah, with Backpack Ei4's help. They attacked it from both sides.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Yeah, with Backpack Ei4's help. They attacked it from both sides.


That was the one with the kick she nearly broke it the first time she touched it.


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That was the one with the kick she nearly broke it the first time she touched it.


Oh yeah, she cracked it a little bit by herself, but didn't get through.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> No, I do remember it. He cut his bare arm with his Raiton-enhanced arm. Not impressive.



The body is what constitutes the greatest part of Raikage's durability.

Chidori didn't stop at RCM it stopped at Ay's pec. The motion lines were still there after the hit even.



t0xeus said:


> Certainly not as impressive as him using his best attacks on countless occasions and ending with no injuries on his own body whatsoever.



Taking the backlash from his attacks is still nothing compared to receiving Tsunade's own.

Raikage punched Madara and did no discernable damage. Tsunade punched Madara and nobody was surprised he exploded.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Oh yeah, she cracked it a little bit by herself, but didn't get through.


Yeah if I'm not mistaken over half of the Susanoo was covered in cracks.


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> The body is what constitutes the greatest part of Raikage's durability.


Scan please.


FlamingRain said:


> Chidori didn't stop at RCM it stopped at Ay's pec. The motion lines were still there after the hit.


Yes, attacks get weaker the more layers of defense they have to get through.


FlamingRain said:


> Taking the backlash from his attacks is still nothing compared to receiving Tsunade's own.


Nobody said otherwise though? Whether Ei4 can tank his own attacks or not was brought up for a different reason, scroll up.


FlamingRain said:


> Raikage punched Madara and did no discernable damage. Tsunade punched Madara and nobody was surprised he exploded.


Yeah, she is much stronger than he is.


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> You're just gonna spew headcanon and think I'll blindly accept it? We can end the debate here if so.


So you are dumb? I figured.

A cut his own arm off, even an amped A couldn't properly bust Madara's Susano'o, Tsunade can do so without any external amps, such that Madara cited her as his superior. Therefore, she can harm A with no issues.


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> So you are dumb? I figured.
> 
> A cut his own arm off, even an amped A couldn't properly bust Madara's Susano'o, Tsunade can do without any external amps, such that Madara cited her as his superior. Therefore, she can harm A with no issues.


Gotcha champ. Ei4 scales below his chops because he could cut his uncloaked arm with his cloaked one. Genius conclusion.
And Tsunade also redmists Adult Sasuke while she's at it as that fodder was harmed by a regular kunai.

I rest my case. Now hush hush and let the adults talk.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Scan please.



What I just mentioned plus neither Raikage bothering with it when using Tensō no Jutsu.

There are scans for behavior even if not explicitly stated.



t0xeus said:


> Yes, attacks get weaker the more layers of defense they have to get through.



True, but the Chidori was not hinted to have dulled (to the point of making a material difference) and doesn't look like it did.



t0xeus said:


> Nobody said otherwise though? Whether Ei4 can tank his own attacks or not was brought up for a different reason, scroll up.
> 
> Yeah, she is much stronger than he is.



What is Ay tanking her hits based on if the difference between them is that large then?


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

Not as bad as what I deleted earlier but we can refrain from calling other posters dumb, too.


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## Sage King (Jun 13, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Doesn't mean she can't either the fact that she is able to analyze and memorize attack patterns makes it easier for her to guess what he'll do next.
> 
> Tsunade has been implied to survive and heal from bisection the fact that she was separated by a tree points that out.
> 
> ...




Well he cornered a ms sharingan user. Yes and Sharingans are known to predict movement so this isn't an argument here.

Ay also has been implied to be fastest after minato. Faster than his father who was dodging Rasenshurikans in Edo form.

No he wasn't stationary. Reread the fight again.
Ay4 appears behind Sasuke, stops himself after Sasuke cover his Susanoo with enton.
And then due to the rage, decides to chop the ribcage.
Ay stopping doesn't mean is open to be attacked by Tsunade. Ay can obviously dodge Tsunade's punches.
He dodged amaterasu. He can dodge Tsunade's punches since he the obvious faster one.

Well you have to be reflexive to deal with a speedster. Or have techniques activated mentally like ms abilities, unfortunately for Tsunade.
Ay cornered Sage Naruto's peer, ms Sasuke using speed alone.


Well the thing is Ay chopped a ribcage Susanoo, chopped hachibi horn. So Tsunade isn't durable enough to take his chops.


Uh, so I shouldn't ask feats for Tsunade stopping herself from being launched by something that can punch as hard as the raikage?.
Besides making a claim of saying Tsunade cannot be launched by Ay need as least feats, no?



Well, Ay can appear before Tsunade instantly. Speed that Katsuyu can't perceive.
So unless Tsunade is going to summon katsuyu before Ay begins to move.
Besides even if Katsuyu is summoned, then Ay can just stay away, when he realises that katsuyu can't be killed.
And Tsunade has to hide inside Katsuyu.

Yes, and He raikage knew that he could handle Bee since he himself was a speedster.

Either by appearing before she could raise her hands.
Or appear behind her like he did to ms Sasuke.


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> What I just mentioned plus neither Raikage bothering with it when using Tensō no Jutsu.


Tsunade didn't activate her healing before it either, risking death if she couldn't handle the effects and betting everything on the fact that she will be able to activate it post-arrival. So we can allude their actions to just Kishi not thinking things through well there.

Anyways, we know that the difference between cloaked and uncloaked durability is bigger than the difference between Fuuton Casting Net from Temari&fodders and a FRS from KCM Naruto. And that's a big difference.


FlamingRain said:


> True, but the Chidori was not hinted to have dulled (to the point of making a material difference) and doesn't look like it did.


Base Raikages' feats are pretty garbage, even his more durable father was destroyed by Temari's Fuuton so we know that the cloak being what Sasuke needs to get through first played a difference there, statement or not.


FlamingRain said:


> What is Ay tanking her hits based on if the difference between them is that large then


Her hits are low end relative to Ribcage Susanoo from Madara, i.e. she can crack it but not really fully get through it on her own.
While Madara's Ribcage Susanoo is stronger than Sasuke's, there's not much supporting the hypothesis that it's such a big difference where Tsunade would be oneshotting through Sasuke's Ribcage and pasting Sasuke alongside it.

Ei4 meanwhile can exert so much force to destroy Sasuke's Susanoo's ribs without taking any damage from it in return. So while Tsunade's hits would be dealing a serious damage, the idea of one punch oneshotting him isn't really supported by anything.


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> Not as bad as what I deleted earlier but we can refrain from calling other posters dumb, too.


I won't, for the simple reason that he's being fucking dumb. But you know, do your thing, mod baby.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## t0xeus (Jun 13, 2021)

Mar55 said:


> I won't, for the simple reason that he's being fucking dumb. But you know, do your thing, mod baby.


 Fap less and think more when you post and we might have a good discussion some time. Until then, learn how to debate without getting your panties twisted and adios.


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## Mar55 (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Fap less


I can't, I don't really have anyone to fuck these days.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

t0xeus said:


> Tsunade didn't activate her healing before it either, risking death if she couldn't handle the effects and betting everything on the fact that she will be able to activate it post-arrival. So we can allude their actions to just Kishi not thinking things through well there.



What they were concerned might happen to her would have killed her either way.



t0xeus said:


> Anyways, we know that the difference between cloaked and uncloaked durability is bigger than the difference between Fuuton Casting Net from Temari&fodders and a FRS from KCM Naruto. And that's a big difference.



The cloak was removed. If Temari's team could remove it then FRS should have removed it _before_ losing most of its power. That would suggest Raikage remained largely intact due to his body.



t0xeus said:


> Base Raikages' feats are pretty garbage, even his more durable father was destroyed by Temari's Fuuton



He was destroyed but the sealing team was unable to capitalize. 

On that note, Dodai attributes the team's inability to deal A3 a decisive blow to his body. 



t0xeus said:


> Her hits are low end relative to Ribcage Susanoo from Madara, i.e. she can crack it but not really fully get through it on her own.
> While Madara's Ribcage Susanoo is stronger than Sasuke's, there's not much supporting the hypothesis that it's such a big difference where Tsunade would be oneshotting through Sasuke's Ribcage and pasting Sasuke alongside it.
> 
> Ei4 meanwhile can exert so much force to destroy Sasuke's Susanoo's ribs without taking any damage from it in return. So while Tsunade's hits would be dealing a serious damage, the idea of one punch oneshotting him isn't really supported by anything.



Ay used the same move against Sasuke and Madara's Susano'os, so the fact that he broke through to Sasuke yet did nothing visible to Madara's would support that difference.

Look at the difference Ohnoki's Kajūgan made against Gengetsu's clam. It let him go from not scratching it to smashing all the way through. That was used to bolster Ay's chop later and it _still_ didn't result in as many cracks as Tsunade's first punch did.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Show tsunade growing a head on panel ok yea





BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> Madara with Hashi's healing: needs zetsu's arm to connect it to his body.
> Tsunade fans: Tsunade has JJ regen.
> Freakshow circus.
> 
> And back to main topic, Raikage fortnite dances in front of Tsunade, then when she gets angry and tries hitting him, Raikage blitzes her from the back and does something like this:


Tsunade's regeneration is stated to be the ultimate regeneration jutsu and pinnacle of medical ninjutsu, meaning her regeneration is better than Orochimaru's and he has the capacity to regenerate a brand new body in general so why can't she? You don't need to be on par with a TTJ to be able to regenerate on that level. Your logic is also severely lacking, by this "If they never did it then they can't do it" logic we might as well say most characters in general can't do much at all. Most Kage can't walk on water or walk on trees because "feats or its not true" logic.


Mar55 said:


> It was not, Madara simply noted her ability to heal was like his in that it lacked hand signs.
> 
> He never compared the two in efficiency.


Yeah I agree with that now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tsunade's regeneration is stated to be the ultimate regeneration jutsu and pinnacle of medical ninjutsu, meaning her regeneration is better than Orochimaru's


...... Have a good day with such bullshit.


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## Mithos (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> ...... Have a good day with such bullshit.


It’s stated to be the ultimate in both DBII and DBIV. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it isn’t manga canon.

Reactions: Like 2 | Kage 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

Sage King said:


> Well he cornered a ms sharingan user. Yes and Sharingans are known to predict movement so this isn't an argument here.


She is the one who delivered the punch that made Madara sub himself out for a clone as well as land a direct hit on him beneath his guard upon being instantly teleported. So there is an argument.


Sage King said:


> Ay also has been implied to be fastest after minato. Faster than his father who was dodging Rasenshurikans in Edo form.


Mind you A3 wasn't beat with speed.


Sage King said:


> No he wasn't stationary. Reread the fight again.
> Ay4 appears behind Sasuke, stops himself after Sasuke cover his Susanoo with enton.


He was stationary when he dodged Amaterasu. That's what I was talking about.


Sage King said:


> And then due to the rage, decides to chop the ribcage.
> Ay stopping doesn't mean is open to be attacked by Tsunade. Ay can obviously dodge Tsunade's punches.
> He dodged amaterasu. He can dodge Tsunad


He chopped the Susanoo which still held together. Ay stopping does mean he is open to attack and if he wants to land an attack he has to touch her. He's not immune to attacks while attacking.


Sage King said:


> Well you have to be reflexive to deal with a speedster. Or have techniques activated mentally like ms abilities, unfortunately for Tsunade.
> Ay cornered Sage Naruto's peer, ms Sasuke using speed alone.


Tsunade was Jiraiya's peer. As seen through Sakura we know she has developed a way to predict an opponents attacks and even their fighting style based on the environment.


Sage King said:


> Well the thing is Ay chopped a ribcage Susanoo, chopped hachibi horn. So Tsunade isn't durable enough to take his chops.


He didn't break the Susanoo and again we've already talked about the Hachibi horn. Not that it's super durable anyway considering that even it's tentacle can be lopped off with a kunai. It is incredibly durable against energy attacks though.


Sage King said:


> Uh, so I shouldn't ask feats for Tsunade stopping herself from being launched by something that can punch as hard as the raikage?.
> Besides making a claim of saying Tsunade cannot be launched by Ay need as least feats, no?


It makes zero sense when not only is she strong but can also brace herself to the ground using chakra which is a strategy she was going to employ against Pain's ST which she also tanked even though it leveled the entire leaf village 


Sage King said:


> Well, Ay can appear before Tsunade instantly. Speed that Katsuyu can't perceive.


Katsuyu would more likely be focused on protecting Tsunade she is the same summon that grew in size and covered everyone in the leaf village before it was leveled.


Sage King said:


> So unless Tsunade is going to summon katsuyu before Ay begins to move.


Why wouldn't she neither V1 or V2 are instant activations.


Sage King said:


> Besides even if Katsuyu is summoned, then Ay can just stay away, when he realises that katsuyu can't be killed.
> And Tsunade has to hide inside Katsuyu


When he realizes she can't be killed there is almost nothing he can do about it she's one of the best defense oriented summons there are.


Sage King said:


> Yes, and He raikage knew that he could handle Bee since he himself was a speedster.


He expected her to fight with him regardless and he thought nothing of speed when he asked her.


Sage King said:


> Either by appearing before she could raise her hands.
> Or appear behind her like he did to ms Sasuke.


She wouldn't be injured like Sasuke was being more durable and having regeneration again let me remind you that Ay himself believed Tsunade would tire herself out before she would die to the attacks Madara was fishing out.


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## Shazam (Jun 13, 2021)

Nearly 10 pages. 

Very hot topic, these two


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## xingi (Jun 13, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Nearly 10 pages.
> 
> Very hot topic, these two


Tbh like half of it is if tsunade can regrow her head or not


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## Shazam (Jun 13, 2021)

xingi said:


> Tbh like half of it is if tsunade can regrow her head or not



Another hot topic


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

xingi said:


> Tbh like half of it is if tsunade can regrow her head or not


To be fair we have been trying to distance ourselves from that topic but they bring it up as if we planted our flag to say she can when the lot of us is just saying that it is possible no one is using it to argue whether or not she wins the battle.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Shazam (Jun 13, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> To be fair we have been trying to distance ourselves from that topic but they bring it up as if we planted our flag to say she can when the lot of us is just saying that it is possible no one is using it to argue whether or not she wins the battle.



Its because arguments against sannin are generally weak


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 13, 2021)

Shazam said:


> Its because arguments against sannin are generally weak


I mean there are definitely so great arguments but blitz her head off using V2 is not a good one.

Reactions: Like 2


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## blk (Jun 13, 2021)

Tsunade gets blacked.

Reactions: Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> ...... Have a good day with such bullshit.


Responses like these make me think a good third of the battledome are just trolls dedicated to annoying people for their own personal enjoyment and don't actually believe what they say themselves.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

mega cringe

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## FlamingRain (Jun 13, 2021)

I mean if you want a ban too...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Onyx Emperor (Jun 13, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> I mean if you want a ban too...


did i hit a vital spot?

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 13, 2021)

BaragganLouisenbairn said:


> did i hit a vital spot?


What is the point in being so hostile? Its unnecessary. Can't you debate without losing your cool?


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 13, 2021)

Let’s get a poll up @Shazam I think this topic has been discussed enough, let’s record everyone’s conclusions

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jun 14, 2021)

FlamingRain said:


> You have to define "serious" for someone with Byakugō - Sōzō Saisei.
> 
> Most people would already count just about everything Tsunade went through as serious.
> 
> ...


I think it's intuitive. The basic takeaway is that Byakugou has a limit. Tsunade would keep going like nothing happened while most others would suffer from, say, restricted movements or they may even be incapacitated fully. Furthermore, it's completely justified to read that notion in connection with what the technique tries to achieve. That is, let's assume that Tsunade can regenerate from decapitation without any doubt, what would you argue—constitutes a serious wound then? If even decapitation won't stop her, it seems nothing else can be considered serious from that standpoint. This is basically venturing into that hyperbolic "unkillable" territory.

Reactions: Like 1 | Kage 1


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## Trojan (Jun 14, 2021)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Responses like these make me think a good third of the battledome are just trolls dedicated to annoying people for their own personal enjoyment and don't actually believe what they say themselves.


that's why I told resorting to ratings is for the best. lol 

----

I only read like 1 or 2 posts here.
it seems like people are talking about Tsunade's ability to regenerate entire body-parts. 
That's extremely unlikely.

Even Hashirama's healing power (which is on the same level as her). Can't do that seeing how Madara needed to take Zetsu's hand instead of his arm that got chopped off.

and if the King of All Asspulls himself couldn't at the peak of his asspullery rampage...
it's clear that Tsunade can't do it either..


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## FlamingRain (Jun 14, 2021)

Hasan said:


> I think it's intuitive. The basic takeaway is that Byakugou has a limit. Tsunade would keep going like nothing happened while most others would suffer from, say, restricted movements or they may even be incapacitated fully. Furthermore, it's completely justified to read that notion in connection with what the technique tries to achieve. That is, let's assume that Tsunade can regenerate from decapitation without any doubt, what would you argue—constitutes a serious wound then? If even decapitation won't stop her, it seems nothing else can be considered serious from that standpoint. This is basically venturing into that hyperbolic "unkillable" territory.



Something that would instantly result in the user's bodily activity ceasing before regeneration can even occur, like the destruction of their systems themselves as opposed to any particular parts of them. Literally ripping the user apart is indicated to suffice in chapter 562, for example.

Only talking about physical means here, of course.


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## Shazam (Jun 14, 2021)

DaVizWiz said:


> Let’s get a poll up @Shazam I think this topic has been discussed enough, let’s record everyone’s conclusions



I dont like polls because they give voice to all the dupes.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sage King (Jun 14, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> She is the one who delivered the punch that made Madara sub himself out for a clone as well as land a direct hit on him beneath his guard upon being instantly teleported. So there is an argument.
> 
> Mind you A3 wasn't beat with speed.
> 
> ...



No, she didn't make him substitute with the clone.
Madara might have substituted himself with the clone when he was telling Tsunade that she could die if she attacked him after breaking the Susanoo.
So he might have substituted long BEFORE Tsunade punched him(clone)
So that isn't analyzing patterns, she got feinted.
The sharingan is well known for predicting movements. Yet Sasuke had to camp in his Susanoo and coat it with amaterasu because he couldn't keep up with the man's movements.


What do you mean Ay 3 wasn't beat with speed. He got beaten by a reflexive sensor with danger sense, a sage to be exact with enhanced physically attributes that include speed. And Ay 3 was in Edo form, not only that but Ay 4 is faster than him in his living self.


I brought Ay stopping himself from chopping the Susanoo, besides the flames Appearing while he was in motion, to show that he can stop himself from running into Tsunade's fists.
And as for the amaterasu, he dodged while stationary.
Meaning that he can move, stop himself and while stationary is able to dodge fast attacks.


MS Sasuke being SM Naruto's peer is better than being Jiraiya's peer, no?
So the raikage benefits from that.


What do you mean he didn't break it. Didn't you read the Five kage summit.
Sasuke had to coat the Susanoo using enton and Ay still cut it.
Why can't it(horn) be durable?.
Horns=/=tentacles

Tsunade being stronger than Ay doesn't mean that she can't be moved by a punch from Ay, since the man also specialises in brute force.
Saying Tsunade was going to do it doesn't mean she wasn't going to be pushed away without Katsuyu.
What stops the ground that she is standing from being snapped when Ay hits her?

If Tsunade summons Katsuyu. And when Ay realises that she can't be killed. Then he will stay away until Tsunade comes out.
If she doesn't then it's a stalemate since Tsunade's Summon cannot do anything to Ay 4.

Come on now, as I said Ay knew nothing about Naruto's capabilities. And as for Bee speed, Ay was there wasn't he?
Besides Ay 4 had already told be to stand down without an all out fight.
So raikage would obviously think that Tsunade would convince Naruto better since she was the leaf leader.
So raikage bringing Tsunade had nothing to do with speed.
And also never saw Tsunade nor Naruto fighting.
The only person he knew was a speedster was Bee, no?
Whom he was going to handle.

Sasuke wasn't injured due to the Susanoo, so not comparable.
And Ay isn't madara though. He chops not stab.
And from the Sasuke fight, his chops were targeting his neck.
Was it a coincidence.


And let's not forget that Tsunade was getting Tagged by Susanoo clones. If she had reflexes to handle Ay speed, she couldn't have been poked by Madara clones.
Besides madara already called Ay faster than Tsunade.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 14, 2021)

Sage King said:


> No, she didn't made him substitute with the clone.
> Madara might have substituted himself with the clone when he was telling Tsunade that she could die if she attacked him after breaking the Susanoo.


You don't know when he substituted. He only did so after he was cornered not before.


Sage King said:


> So he might have substitute


He told us he substituted but we never saw when.


Sage King said:


> So that isn't analyzing patterns, she got feinted.
> The sharingan is well known for predicting movements. Yet Sasuke had to camp in his Susanoo and coat it with amaterasu because he couldn't keep up with the man's movements.


I use Sakura as a reference to how Tsunade could analyze attack patterns because that's exactly what she taught her to do. Sasuke also had to camp because he wasn't durable enough to take direct hits from Ay the same can't be said for Tsunade who is durable enough.


Sage King said:


> What do you mean Ay 3 wasn't beat with speed. He got beaten by a reflexive sensor with danger sense, a sage to be exact with enhanced physically attributes that include speed. And Ay 3 was in Edo form, not only that but Ay 4 is faster than him in his living self.


KCM is better suited for speed while he used Sage Mode to improve his reflexes. Therefore he didn't use Sage Mode for it's speed but so he could better predict A3's next move. That is what was explained to us in the manga.


Sage King said:


> I brought Ay stopping himself from chopping the Susanoo, besides the flames Appearing while he was in motion, to show that he can stop himself from running into Tsunade's fists.


He still has to be in her range in order to attack her anyways is my point. Ay uses strength and momentum to get the power he does for his attacks.


Sage King said:


> And as for the amaterasu, he dodged while stationary.
> Meaning that he can move, stop himself and while stationary is able to dodge fast attacks.


He still has to actually hit her to do anything and as he does he leaves himself also open to be hit.


Sage King said:


> MS Sasuke being SM Naruto's peer is better than being Jiraiya's peer, no?
> So the raikage benefits from that.


Not really since Sage Mode Jiraiya is either on the same tier or slightly higher than A4.


Sage King said:


> What do you mean he didn't break it. Didn't you read the Five kage summit.
> Sasuke had to coat the Susanoo using enton and Ay still cut it.


Ay didn't cut Susanoo it buckled from his attack it's the reason why he wasn't outright killed by the attack.


Sage King said:


> Why can't it(horn) be durable?.
> Horns=/=tentacles


Who said the horn didn't have durability however it does go to show that Biju aren't durability monsters when it comes to physical attacks. Despite being able to take its own bijubomb.


Sage King said:


> Tsunade being stronger than Ay doesn't mean that she can't be moved by a punch from Ay, since the man also specialises in brute force.


It means she is less likely to be moved by his punch and not outright ragdolled as you think will happen. He specializes in brute force but she does it way better.


Sage King said:


> Saying Tsunade was going to do it doesn't mean she wasn't going to be pushed away without Katsuyu.
> What stops the ground that she is standing from being snapped when Ay hits her?


It doesn't mean she was either. Considering Tsunade blows up the very ground she stands on I'm sure she'll be just fine.


Sage King said:


> If Tsunade summons Katsuyu. And Ay realises that she can't be killed. Then he will stay away until Tsunade comes out.


Tsunade doesn't have to hide in Katsuyu as soon as she is summoned. That same summon has the ability to do everything she already can as a puddle on the ground as well. Healing  and reforming is not an issue for Katsuyu.


Sage King said:


> If she doesn't then it's a stalemate since Tsunade's Summon cannot do anything to Ay 4.


It can spew acid that is pretty difficult to dodge because she gives no signs or warnings when she is readying it. He may not be hit by it because he's really fast but it's more than threatening enough to cause distractions. Even after he engaged Bee and Naruto he expected Tsunade to help.


Sage King said:


> Come on now, as I said Ay knew nothing about Naruto's capabilities. And as for Bee speed, Ay was there wasn't he?


See above.


Sage King said:


> Besides Ay 4 had already told be to stand down without an all out fight.
> So raikage would obviously think that Tsunade would convince Naruto better since she was the leaf leader.
> So raikage bringing Tsunade had nothing to do with speed.


He asked her for assistance because he assumed she would be able to handle herself.


Sage King said:


> And also never saw Tsunade nor Naruto fighting.
> The only person he knew was a speedster was Bee, no?
> Whom he was going to handle


Who knows he could have been going off of her reputation, maybe she told him about a little of what she could do, etc.


Sage King said:


> Sasuke wasn't injured due to the Susanoo, so not comparable.
> And Ay isn't madara though. He chops not stab.
> And from the Sasuke fight, his chops were targeting his neck.
> Was it a coincidence.


Sasuke did still sustain injury from Ay. Also are you saying that Madara Uchiha only knows how to use the pointy end of his sword? Also that chop is supposed to be able to break the neck which is why he used it. So if anything that's what it would be used for.


Sage King said:


> And let's not forget that Tsunade was getting Tagged by Susanoo clones. If she had reflexes to handle Ay speed, she couldn't have been poked by Madara clones.
> Besides madara already called Ay faster than Tsunade.


Tsunade was purposefully getting tagged to deal better hits she says as much. He also implies that she had been dodging them before that point.


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## Sage King (Jun 15, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> You don't know when he substituted. He only did so after he was cornered not before.
> 
> He told us he substituted but we never saw when.
> 
> ...



Refer on the point I replied to. That's why I said MIGHT.
So there is nothing that shows that Tsunade's punch was the one that made madara substitute.
You were the one who brought it up, yes?

But as I said. Ay cornered not a 3 tomoe sharingan user but an evolved one, MS. Sage Naruto's peer.
So Nothing implies Tsunade can analyze patterns on a ms user level whom the raikage cornered with his speed.
Also Sasuke's durability has nothing to do with what I'm saying though....
Besides Tsunade isn't durable to take raikage's chops anyway.
And his punch can push her away.

Ay is also a Taijutsu user yes?.And is faster than Tsunade.
Being in her range doesn't mean that Tsunade can hit Ay.
He can react to her punches and dodge them with ease.
As for the momentum it's wrong. Yes his speed may increase his punches but he can push Tsunade away easily with a punch.
Against Sasuke he stop his momentum but still had power to cut and push Sasuke to the ground.

No Ay hitting Tsunade isn't leaving him open to be hit. As I told you his punches can push Tsunade away easily.
And he is faster than her so he can even dodge her hits.

Uh, so where did you get that Jiraiya is stronger than Ay?
As far as I know Ay was making Sage Naruto's peer suffer.Which means he is even more dangerous to anyone below that level.

He did cut it. I think you should reread the fight again. There are even"KRAK KRAK" sounds bruh.

It means those physical attacks that can hurt it can outright kill or cripple anything less durable than that horn.

Not less likely. We have seen characters moved far away by fists of those that are physically inferior to them.
So Ay can definitely push her away for a good distance using his fists. That make his less vulnerable of being attacked by Tsunade's fists(which he can also counter using his speed again).

The thing is if Katsuyu comes out Ay can attack and know that she
 can't be killed.
And he will keep his distance especially when he sees the summon spreading on the ground.
Until Tsunade attacks, which will be an advantage to Ay.

Now you are really underestimating Ay now. Katsuyu's acid isn't giving him a problem.
Ay 4 dodged Amaterasu, amaterasu I repeat without being warned.
Katsuyu attacks are child's play to him.

I mean why would Ay suddenly gauge Tsunade without seeing her fight that she can fail to stop her underling who he wasn't aware of his abilities.
She was a Kage, the Hokage to be exact and to be a kage you have to be one of the powerful or the strongest in your village no?. So he can assume that Tsunade could handle her ninjas like he was going to do to Bee, no?
And a ninja he knew nothing about his powerset let's not forget that.


AFTER Ay engaged Bee and Naruto, there is nowhere that shows Ay  needing to be helped by Tsunade.
Unless I'm missing something.

Well, it seems you now get it that Ay's attacks are not like any other ninjas.
He doesn't pierce he chops.
And besides that he has attacks that can go for the neck unlike any other ninja.

If Tsunade was fast enough to have reflexes to handle Ay. Then she could have been just getting good hits in on the clones without having to use a technique and a tactic that was making her "sloppy".

Ok bruh. If you're going to reply. My reply for your post will be a little late than the other ones.
That's if it's ok with you.
I will be a little busy.t use Sage Mode for it


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 15, 2021)

Sage King said:


> Refer on the point I replied to. That's why I said MIGHT.
> So there is nothing that shows that Tsunade's punch was the one that made madara substitute.
> You were the one who brought it up, yes?


Hey if you want skip and read the last part so we don't have to do this back and forth forever.

What other time do you think he could have been cornered if her punch is what happened before he was thought to be sealed? I can make a more convincing case for it happening then than any other time than what you can make since that is an on panel instance where it could have happened. Plus you can clearly see the Edo Tensei paper so yes she did hit the real Madara.


Sage King said:


> But as I said. Ay cornered not a 3 tomoe sharingan user but an evolved one, MS. Sage Naruto's peer


ABC logic tends not to work too much here because ninja have different abilities and skills right? Sasuke during that time could mentally react but the only thing he could do was stay on the defensive because Amateratsu and Enton are the only moves that wouldn't leave him open to the Raikage's attack which he did not have the durability to take.


Sage King said:


> So Nothing implies Tsunade can analyze patterns on a ms user level whom the raikage cornered with his speed.


Again there goes ABC logic. The MS Sharingan doesn't make you immune from being hit not only that I've already explained why Sasuke was pretty much cornered from the get go from what I just wrote about your quote above. The MS doesn't make you untouchable as seen by Madara vs. Hashi, Tobirama vs. Izuna, Shin vs. Sakura, even Raikage vs. Sasuke can be used, even Itachi thought that fighting Jiraiya would end in one or both of their deaths despite having MS. Sakura analyzing attacks patterns implies that Tsunade can since that is how Tsunade trained her. You don't have to have a sharingan to do that and having one doesn't mean you do so at the highest level. Mind you genin Sasuke said Genin Sakura was more perceptive than his very own sharingan.


Sage King said:


> Also Sasuke's durability has nothing to do with what I'm saying though....


It does though. It ready does


Sage King said:


> Besides





Sage King said:


> And his punch can push her away.


Ummm. She can block his punch and not be pushed away...


Sage King said:


> Ay is also a Taijutsu user yes?.And is faster than Tsunade


However he isn't stronger. This is the same woman who grabbed a Biju sized Tanto one handed...


Sage King said:


> Being in her range doesn't mean that Tsunade can hit Ay.


Him hitting her means that though. Considering she is all for trading blows if it means she gets her punch off.


Sage King said:


> He can react to her punches and dodge them with ease.
> As for the momentum it's wrong. Yes his speed may increase his punches but he can push Tsunade away easily with a punch.


He can't punch and dodge at the same time is what I'm saying he has to make contact with her which leaves him open to be attacked. I just fail to see why someone who is stronger and can brace herself with chakra will be knocked around by the Raikage.


Sage King said:


> Against Sasuke he stop his momentum but still had power to cut and push Sasuke to the ground.


He never cut Sasuke. Also you are talking about the scene where he wedged Sasuke in to the ground to deliver a leg drop?


Sage King said:


> No Ay hitting Tsunade isn't leaving him open to be hit. As I told you his punches can push Tsunade away easily.
> And he is faster than her so he can even dodge her hits.


As I told you I disagree. Not only that but punching her long enough to try and push her back leaves him open to be counter attacked he can't overpower her but the opposite isn't true. To avoid being overpowered he can't use a majority of his on panel moves.


Sage King said:


> Uh, so where did you get that Jiraiya is stronger than Ay?


Where did you get that he isn't? Just asking. Are you just under the impression that speedsters can't be hit?


Sage King said:


> As far as I know Ay was making Sage Naruto's peer suffer.Which means he is even more dangerous to anyone below that level.


No that doesn't. You're using ABC logic. 


Sage King said:


> He did cut it. I think you should reread the fight again. There are even"KRAK KRAK" sounds bruh.


That doesn't mean he cut it... That means he damaged it had his hand actually went through it Sasuke would have died. I only see Susanoo buckling.


Sage King said:


> It means those physical attacks that can hurt it can outright kill or cripple anything less durable than that horn.


No.... That doesn't mean it shares the same durability... Tsunade took an attack that literally nearly broke through the combined defense of Ohnoki and Gaara with no visible injury sustained from it .

Here is what it looks like.




Sage King said:


> Not less likely. We have seen characters moved far away by fists of those that are physically inferior to them.
> So Ay can definitely push her away for a good distance using his fists. That make his less vu.lnerable of being attacked by Tsunade's fists(which he can also counter using his speed again).


I've already addressed this many times and in multiple ways.


Sage King said:


> The thing is if Katsuyu comes out Ay can attack and know that she
> can't be killed.
> And he will keep his distance especially when he sees the summon spreading on the ground.
> Until Tsunade attacks, which will be an advantage to Ay.


What stops Tsunade from just standing still? She has the range advantage now, the better defense, a numbers advantage, her slugs can attack from different angles, cause distractions, and her jutsu are more cost effective.


Sage King said:


> Now you are really underestimating Ay now. Katsuyu's acid isn't giving him a problem.
> Ay 4 dodged Amaterasu, amaterasu I repeat without being warned.
> Katsuyu attacks are child's play to him.


No one is underestimating Ay4 but regardless of how easy he can dodge he still has to dodge which could serve as a distraction for Tsunade. Also unlike Amateratsu the slug gives no indicator that it's about to attack until it does. The most elusive character in the series knew he wouldn't be able to escape if Katsuyu used it and that's why.


Sage King said:


> I mean why would Ay suddenly gauge Tsunade without seeing her fight that she can fail to stop her underling who he wasn't aware of his abilities.
> She was a Kage, the Hokage to be exact and to be a kage you have to be one of the powerful or the strongest in your village no?. So he can assume that Tsunade could handle her ninjas like he was going to do to Bee, no?
> And a ninja he knew nothing about his powerset let's not forget that.


He literally asked for her help after they got into an altercation... Also obviously it was a new transformation which is why he was with Bee in the first place 


Sage King said:


> AFTER Ay engaged Bee and Naruto, there is nowhere that shows Ay needing to be helped by Tsunade.
> Unless I'm missing something.


He asked for her help....


Sage King said:


> Well, it seems you now get it that Ay's attacks are not like any other ninjas.


Neither are Tsunade's so what does that mean?


Sage King said:


> He doesn't pierce he chops.


Chopping is one of his moves yes but what about it? Are you saying Madara can only pierce or.....


Sage King said:


> And besides that he has attacks that can go for the neck unlike any other ninja.


Going for it doesn't mean it lands where he wants it to and kills when he wants it to. It's because if he's using it he's going for the kill anyways. For arguments sake let's say he does slice her head off which is unlikely with Katsuyu on the field it would not matter anyways because he definitely can't get rid of her while she tends to Tsunade


Sage King said:


> If Tsunade was fast enough to have reflexes to handle Ay. Then she could have been just getting good hits in on the clones without having to use a technique and a tactic that was making her "sloppy


Please don't make me pull out the knife analogy.... You know what here we go.

Okay let's say there are two people in a knife fight. They have the same stats and are evenly skilled. They both decide to unleash one final attack to draw an end to their battle. There is one difference though. One isn't afraid to throw their life away to take down the other so he rushes in to deliver a fatal blow knowing that his life will most likely be taken the other still has an attachment to his life so he isn't willing to a do a riskier move. Thats the reason why person A wins because he left himself open for attack to deliver a blow that would surely kill the other.

Byakugou takes the risk of death away and because of it Tsunade is able to deliver blows that she wouldn't have been able to had she been worried about severe injury or death.

That is why she takes blows that normally others would try avoid. You brought the fact that Raikage said she was getting sloppy yet in one translation I've read she says that she was doing the highest level of fighting possible another said she saw no point in trying to conserve energy as a response to his critique.

Her sloppiness as he called it had nothing to do with her reflexes she wanted to land better attacks on her susanoo. This was evidenced by her being able to leave an opening while the second the Raikage did he was nearly killed.


Sage King said:


> Ok bruh. If you're going to reply. My reply for your post will be a little late than the other ones.
> That's if it's ok with you.
> I will be a little busy.t use Sage Mode for it


I honestly think it would be a good idea to agree to disagree however I'm willing to do one last post explaining why I think she wins and what factors I think gives her the edge if you want to do the same with the Raikage that way we end the endless back and forth.


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## Sage King (Jun 17, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Hey if you want skip and read the last part so we don't have to do this back and forth forever.
> 
> What other time do you think he could have been cornered if her punch is what happened before he was thought to be sealed? I can make a more convincing case for it happening then than any other time than what you can make since that is an on panel instance where it could have happened. Plus you can clearly see the Edo Tensei paper so yes she did hit the real Madara.
> 
> ...



Yes let's agree to disagree.

The last time I checked Hashi's wood clone could also produces the Edo papers when he got ripped by juubito alongside tobirama.

I also disagree with the idea of Tsunade regenerating her head. 
Since if she had done that then it will be her top feat.
So saying Tsunade can regenerate her cuz of her feats we have seen, is just like saying a character who can tank rasengan can tank a rasenshurikan.
I disagree with Tsunade staying unmoved when Ay  punches.

Also there is nothing that suggest that those magatamas that Tsunade can cut gyuki's horn.
And Ay cuts the Susanoo. Being unable to kill Sasuke was due to the the other aura produced by the Susanoo.
Besides attacks lose their power as they penetrate a certain defense.


I also disagree with your examples of ms fights.
Hashirama had incredible speed.
Sakura was only able to hit shin since she caught him off guard.
In the boruto series she was getting overpowered in a direct cqc.
The raikage is faster for someone who can predict movements.
Not just a someone but a sage Naruto's peer.
So there is no ABC logic. Since MS increase speed and reflexes.
As peers have about the same speed in Naruto.
It's clear and obvious that someone who can make sage Naruto's peer suffer is far dangerous to the level below.

And also it was said by Karin that Sasuke had to camp in his Susanoo due to that he couldn't keep up with Ay's movements.

And also you are the one who brought Jiraiya being stronger than Ay. In which I told there's nothing that suggest that he was.
Which means you are the one who brought up the claim.
Speedster can be hit by those who are as fast as them or those who have mental activating attacks.
And sensor type ninjas.

I also disagree with Katsuyu bothering someone with the speed of Ay's calibre.
Just because a character slower than Ay thought he couldn't escape her acid.

Tsunade being able to rely with her healing is my point. If she was fast to deal with Ay speed then she could use highest combat level without relying on her regeneration.
Since she has self knew that fighting someone like madara would need her to conserve her energy.

I also disagree with Tsunade being able to react to Ay's speed.
I also disagree with Tsunade and Ay having equal stats. 
And also disagree with your knife analogy

So yes once again let's agree to disagree.


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## SakuraLover16 (Jun 17, 2021)

The analogy was just an analogy.... Nevermind.


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## ShadowBlade77 (Jun 18, 2021)

Tsunade gets her face smashed in/head sliced off before she even thinks of activating Byakugo.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Beyonce (Jun 18, 2021)

Decapitation only becomes a serious argument when it’s against Tsunade because a majority of people know nobody in her tier can effectively put her down without gassing out.

The issue of Tsunade regrowing her head isn’t even relevant because Ay isn’t capable of shit blitzing Tsunade. Madara clones were fast enough to tag Ei the second he took his eyes off them. Tsunade was smacking them around and avoided getting decapitated by them.

Reactions: Winner 1


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