# Is Garp equal to WB and Roger?



## Dead Precedence (Jul 5, 2021)

Is Whitebeard Roger's only true equal, where the fight would always end in a stalemate or take months where it would go either way every time, or does Garp complete some sort of trinity of the the three being equal? Is he slightly a step below but close and if he is a step below would he be closer to WB/Roger or Shiki/Sengoku?


----------



## Elsa (Jul 5, 2021)

A slight step below so far and from what we know.

Still would give an extreme diff to both of them I guess (in his prime).

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## TheNirou (Jul 5, 2021)

He is on their level. 

They are equal, even Roger said that they almost kill each other.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 2


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 5, 2021)

A slight step behind.

The next best thing. An arch-nemesis.

Basically the 3rd strongest character in the series based on information we have, outside of guys like Xebec and Imu.

Would most likely be the strongest man in the world right now if he was still in his prime.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Djomla (Jul 5, 2021)




----------



## MrPopo (Jul 5, 2021)

Yes


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 5, 2021)

Garp has been portrayed as Roger's equal for as long as you can think back. Chasing Roger throughout his whole career and nearly killing him multiple times as per Roger's own words. Considering that he also had the same growth rate as the pirate king and god valley once again portrays them as absolute equals. He was known as the devil among pirates, who broke them without blinking an eye (see Chinjao, who was hailed as the hardest head in existence. Garp didn't just defeat him, he broke his spirit and bent him over like a whore).

Reactions: Like 4 | Winner 4


----------



## ShadoLord (Jul 5, 2021)

99 or 99.5 to their 100.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Strobacaxi (Jul 5, 2021)

Yes, in a fight between any of these 3 both sides would have a high probability of dying

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Eustathios (Jul 5, 2021)

Slightly below, same general level

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Ruse (Jul 5, 2021)

Only slight weaker in my opinion. Difference would be like Akainu/Aokiji

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## trance (Jul 5, 2021)

yes


----------



## Datassassin (Jul 5, 2021)

Garp being a rival to Roger and a fearsome opponent didn't make him Roger's actual equal, nor a figure able to stop WB from becoming the WSM and remaining as such. Prime Garp was slightly behind while still well above the modern Yonko/Admirals.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Amol (Jul 5, 2021)

Let me put it this way.
Neither Roger nor Primebeard can beat Garp without practically dying themselves.
it would be kind of fight where winner would be in no condition to celebrate. It would be one of those fight where winner would require immediate medical assistance to survive.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


----------



## Canute87 (Jul 5, 2021)

Yeah Roger has given Garp way too much props for that not to be the case.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## trance (Jul 5, 2021)

@Freechoice 8 souls must be guided back towards salvation

only then will His omnipresent fist accept them

#Church of the Fist

Reactions: Funny 2


----------



## Van Basten (Jul 5, 2021)

A few hairs weaker probably.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Ezekjuninor (Jul 5, 2021)

I put him just below but stronger than everyone else and able to give either of them extreme diff. Roger/WB 100 Garp would be ~99.5. Garp was never the WSM and Buggy stated that WB was the only man to match Roger. Old WB also received far more hype than Garp ever did.
Also, the official translation for Roger’s “almost killed each other countless times” statement, is “we’ve been fighting each other for years” so unless there’s a big mistranslation it doesn’t really mean much.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 5, 2021)

Yeah Prime Garp would be the WSM today.

If he actually ate a devil fruit after Roger died, who knows? He should've already been a heavy contender for such a title even without one.


----------



## Peppoko (Jul 5, 2021)

Well yes, he was equal to Roger and Whitebeard. But if they fought I'd think that Roger or Primebeard would win extreme-diff against him.


----------



## JayK (Jul 5, 2021)

God Valley yet again portrayed Garp and Roger as dead equals

You gotta be pretty illiterate or biased to not understand that at this point.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Captain Altintop (Jul 5, 2021)

I say he can push them to *extreme *(_mid_+) diff. in a 7+ days long fight probably.

He is not nigh equal but on the same level obviously.


----------



## Corax (Jul 6, 2021)

He is equal. Roger himself said so.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## convict (Jul 6, 2021)

He and Xebec push them to extreme difficulty. The big 2 would win though after a very long fight.


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Jul 6, 2021)

Yeah.
He is indeed their equal

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Furinji Saiga (Jul 6, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Garp has been portrayed as Roger's equal for as long as you can think back. Chasing Roger throughout his whole career and nearly killing him multiple times as per Roger's own words. Considering that he also had the same growth rate as the pirate king and god valley once again portrays them as absolute equals. He was known as the devil among pirates, who broke them without blinking an eye (see Chinjao, who was hailed as the hardest head in existence. Garp didn't just defeat him, he broke his spirit and bent him over like a whore).


Praise Garp!! 

The hype and portrayal is incredible.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Sherlōck (Jul 6, 2021)

Basically Roger/WB have 50% chance of winning against Garp. 

So yeah.

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 6, 2021)

Yes. All evidence suggests that they were all dead equal.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


----------



## Eustathios (Jul 6, 2021)

WB was recognized as the WSM after Roger's execution (when Garp was at his prime too) and Buggy tells us the only man to fight equally against Roger is him. Garp was close, but never a dead equal. Think of it like the Admirals, they're pretty much on the same level but Akainu had a slight edge over Aokiji. True equals do exist in OP (Dorry, Brogy).

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 6, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> *WB was recognized as the WSM after Roger's execution *(when Garp was at his prime too) and Buggy tells us the only man to fight equally against Roger is him. Garp was close, but never a dead equal. Think of it like the Admirals, they're pretty much on the same level but Akainu had a slight edge over Aokiji. True equals do exist in OP (Dorry, Brogy).


This has never been confirmed in the manga

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Eustathios (Jul 6, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> This has never been confirmed in the manga


Common sense. WB was not stronger than Roger and he got sick later on. He was the strongest he would ever be right after Roger's death. Either way it does not matter because WB was the WSM when Garp was around.


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 6, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> Common sense. WB was not stronger than Roger and he got sick later on. He was the strongest he would ever be right after Roger's death. Either way it does not matter because WB was the WSM when Garp was around.


Secondary source in the vivre card states that WB was the WSM before roger died. As for WB having the title while Garp was alive we don't know if Garp ever challenged WB to a fight for the title.


----------



## Skaddix (Jul 6, 2021)

I mean WB does have the most destructive DF. Like Roger or Garp might beat WB in a 1 v 1 but it doesn't change the fact that in terms of AOE damage WB vastly outshines them.


----------



## zoro (Jul 6, 2021)

Furinji Saiga said:


> Praise Garp!!
> 
> The hype and portrayal is incredible.


>Prime Luffy won't look this beastly 

Life is suffering 


But yeah, I'd say he was their equal for sure and probably the strongest marine ever. Only Koby will reach that height but we'll most likely never see it


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 6, 2021)

Skaddix said:


> I mean WB does have the most destructive DF. Like Roger or Garp might beat WB in a 1 v 1 but it doesn't change the fact that in terms of AOE damage WB vastly outshines them.


Exactly.

I think WB being WSM has a lot to do with the Gura Gura no mi as well. His combat ability was high enough that he could clash against Roger without it, and likely has immense physical strength (befitting of the the WSM). That, and he has the power which Sengoku believed could destroy the world in his prime.

Advanced Conqueror's Haki which is possessed by the strongest, unreal physical strength that is almost unprecedented, and the strongest Paramecia with the potential to destroy the world? Yeah...it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together and understand why he earned his title.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Bobybobster (Jul 6, 2021)

garp would loose 6/10 matches to either.
He'd stalemate in the remaining 4.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 6, 2021)

I feel like this also begs the question whether or not you see Akainu and Aokiji as having a WB/Roger dynamic or if Aokiji is just a hair weaker. Aokiji did eventually lose but the fight is obviously portrayed as them being almost being pure equals and I feel every fight would eventually have a winner provided they go on long enough. Aokiji could have easily won if you restart and had another duel.


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 6, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> I feel like this also begs the question whether or not you see Akainu and Aokiji as having a WB/Roger dynamic or if Aokiji is just a hair weaker. Aokiji did eventually lose but the fight is obviously portrayed as them being almost being pure equals and I feel every fight would eventually have a winner provided they go on long enough. Aokiji could have easily won if you restart and had another duel.



Well Dorry and Broggy never finished their fights, so Roger/WB could be a similar case.

Also I don't know if Aokiji would have won if they restarted it, since he lost his leg as a result  More injuries and it's a wonder if either of them would last over the course of yet another 10 day duel.


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 6, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> Well Dorry and Broggy never finished their fights, so Roger/WB could be a similar case.
> 
> Also I don't know if Aokiji would have won if they restarted it, since he lost his leg as a result  More injuries and it's a wonder if either of them would last over the course of yet another 10 day duel.


Lmao good point I meant if you restarted without injuries in tact but that’s a shoulda woulda scenario at that point. I just wondered if WB/Rogers and Mihawk/Shanks duels were eternal stalemates or a case of them having equal wins on the scoreboard.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## AlwaysLearning100 (Jul 8, 2021)

Strongest Marine ; Pirates worldwide fear and/or respect him 

Strongest Pirates wary of his strength/power
- Roger said that Garp almost killed him multiple times
- WhiteBeard was serious when Garp was temporarily active during the Marineford War
- Shiki was temporarily speechless when Garp arrived during his invasion of Marineford

Future Pirate King Luffy's relationship to Garp is more stated to be an unsurprising explanation for Luffy's power/strength
- 5/Five Elders said that Luffy's reputation is understandable since he is Garp's grandson
- Big Mom noted that she was being challenged by "Garp's grandson"

Fought with Roger noted by Sengoku as the Marine Hero and Future Pirate King fighting together; strongest of each side  

One of the most important Will of D members of his generation like Luffy and Dragon with their eras/generations.

Garp as a child was shown riding a tiger that he beat up showing a free spirit similar to Luffy ; pirate - like lifestyle

Garp was/is an equal to Roger and WhiteBeard  

In My Opinion Equal and Extreme Diff

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## bil02 (Jul 9, 2021)

Hmm i don't know,one needed to train to defeat Chinjao's drill technique 8 years after god valley.

I don't think they were equals as it is never really stated,but Garp shouldn't be far behind.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Strobacaxi (Jul 9, 2021)

bil02 said:


> Hmm i don't know,one needed to train to defeat Chinjao's drill technique 8 years after god valley.


In other words, Garp overpowered a continent splitting attack with a single punch




Defeating a technique =/= Defeating a person
Struggling to beat Elizabllo's king punch would not be a bad feat for DR Zoro or Luffy, despite them being able to one shot the fool

Besides, I always took "I prepared by destroying 8 mountains" more of a "I warmed up before coming here so let's go all out from the start" than a "I trained specifically to beat you"

Reactions: Agree 3


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 9, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> In other words, Garp overpowered a continent splitting attack with a single punch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It does seem like an off hand remark is blown out of proportion I agree but I’m a big garp fan so could be affecting how I interpret


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 9, 2021)

bil02 said:


> Hmm i don't know,one needed to train to defeat Chinjao's drill technique 8 years after god valley.


This is such a bad take I don't know people keep bringing it up .

Garp trained to overpower chinjaos main means of attack that was able to split an ice conteniat. There is a big difference between training to win and training to crush and destroy an oppents main means of attack. 

More so everyone conveniently forgets the result which was a one punch win and the "training" Garp did was using mountains as sandbags nothing extreme. 

It like using the fact that saitama had to train so all his one punch wins means nothing


----------



## bil02 (Jul 10, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> This is such a bad take I don't know people keep bringing it up .
> 
> Garp trained to overpower chinjaos main means of attack that was able to split an ice conteniat. There is a big difference between training to win and training to crush and destroy an oppents main means of attack.
> 
> ...


Someone who took on the whole rocks crew in a tandem with Roger and "seemingly" won,shouldn't have to train to defeat Chinjao's main mean of offense.
Especially since Chinjao is not particularly hyped to be on Roger,Wb's or Xebec's level.

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## bil02 (Jul 10, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> In other words, Garp overpowered a continent splitting attack with a single punch
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok still is there any definite statement saying Garp was an equal to Roger?

For now,I have Garp slightly under Prime Wb and Roger.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 10, 2021)

bil02 said:


> Someone who took on the whole rocks crew in a tandem with Roger and "seemingly" won,shouldn't have to train to defeat Chinjao's main mean of offense.
> Especially since Chinjao is not particularly hyped to be on Roger,Wb's or Xebec's level.


Firstly you're greatly under-estimating how durable Chinjaos head is, He claimed there was nothing harder than it and secondary cannon states that it is the hardest head in the world aswell as the reason for Garp earning the epithet "The fist". So in-universe Garp flattening Chinjaos head is a big deal. 

*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 









Secondly we have secondary cannon that states Chinjao clashed against Roger so he wasn't just some scrub pirate. 


*Spoiler*: __ 









Lastly your point about Garp having to train to defeat Chinjaos main means of offence consider how Mihawk failed to brake Wado even though east-blue Zoro is an ant to Mihawk and Mihawk posses the superior weapon with Yuru.  There is a difference between braking someone's main means of attack and defeating them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 10, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Garp being a rival to Roger and a fearsome opponent didn't make him Roger's actual equal, nor a figure able to stop WB from becoming the WSM and remaining as such. Prime Garp was slightly behind while still well above the modern Yonko/Admirals.


This.

Whitebeard literally dropped more than Garp did and remained stronger than him.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 10, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Yes. All evidence suggests that they were all dead equal.


>All evidence

>Dead equal

Do you mind elaborating?


----------



## Yumi Zoro (Jul 10, 2021)

Garp is slightly above Roger.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3


----------



## trance (Jul 10, 2021)

bil02 said:


> Hmm i don't know,one needed to train to defeat Chinjao's drill technique 8 years after god valley.



im pretty sure chinjao is supposed to be treated as a glass cannon


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 10, 2021)

redboy776 said:


> Garp is slightly above Roger.


This is just as likely as them being exactly equal.

Literally no evidence that Garp is dead equal to Roger, as some are saying. Nothing like Whitebeard being stated word for word to have fought Roger to a stand still and seeing him do so for days in the recent Oden flashback.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 10, 2021)

Trance said:


> im pretty sure chinjao is supposed to be treated as a glass cannon


Isn't the same head he attacks with the one Garp made into a pulp? You can't really say he's a glass canon when Garp made his canon look weak.


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 10, 2021)

Is current Garp underrated? If so many people have him equal to Wb/Roger, who seemed to deteriorate  the least out of the legends (Sengoku, Rayleigh, WB himself), why do most people here put him below the Yonko, C3, Mihawk, etc in a current top 10?


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> >All evidence
> 
> >Dead equal
> 
> Do you mind elaborating?


Is there any evidence to the contrary?


----------



## convict (Jul 11, 2021)

To me, if he was dead even to Whitebeard he would have been known as the strongest man in the world right now as Whitebeard clearly declined more than he did. I would like him to be acknowledged as at least the strongest marine (which he was imo) before jumping to strongest man.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Is there any evidence to the contrary?


Uhhh, that's not how that works? If what you're trying to ask is if there is evidence that Roger and Whitebeard are equal. And yes, there is. They were stated to have fought to a stand still by Buggy, and fought to a draw after 3 consecutive days in Oden's flashback.

You are trying to prove that Garp is equal to Roger, and to Whitebeard, so the burden of proof is naturally on you, not me.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Uhhh, that's not how that works? If what you're trying to ask is if there is evidence that Roger and Whitebeard are equal. And yes, there is. They were stated to have fought to a stand still by Buggy, and fought to a draw after 3 consecutive days in Oden's flashback.
> 
> You are trying to prove that Garp is equal to Roger, and to Whitebeard, so the burden of proof is naturally on you, not me.


Next I assume you are going to point me to an instance where it was said that Roger defeated Garp despite them having fought countless times.

Also on the subject of burden of proof, I'm afraid it's actually on you, mate. Garp and Roger fought each other and brought each other near death several times and not once has Garp been said to have lost to Roger in any of those encounters. If that doesn't scream "equals" I don't know what does.
So why don't you give one good reason why Roger was the stronger of the two.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Next I assume you are going to point me to an instance where it was said that Roger defeated Garp despite them having fought countless times.


Sengoku also fought Roger. Where was it said that Roger defeated Sengoku? This logic doesn't hold. It's much easier if you had a statement such as Buggy's claiming that Roger and Whitebeard fought to a stand still, and a fight that lasted 3 days where neither could overcome the other.


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Sengoku also fought Roger. Where was it said that Roger defeated Sengoku? This logic doesn't hold. It's much easier if you had a statement such as Buggy's claiming that Roger and Whitebeard fought to a stand still, and a fight that lasted 3 days where neither could overcome the other.


Both roger and Garp tried to kill each other multiple times it wasn't just simple clashes


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Sengoku also fought Roger. Where was it said that Roger defeated Sengoku? This logic doesn't hold. It's much easier if you had a statement such as Buggy's claiming that Roger and Whitebeard fought to a stand still, and a fight that lasted 3 days where neither could overcome the other.


Sengoku fought Roger but Garp was the one whom Roger made direct reference to with respect to near death experiences. Heck very early in the story, we were already told that Garp was Roger's main rival/the man who consistently cornered the Pirate King and the add the icing on the cake, the PK himself states that they nearly killed each other. Yes, Sengoku fought Roger as well, but he doesn't have nearly as much credence regarding his performance against Roger as Garp does.

Not that I care much for Buggy's statement given that Roger's own statement >>>> but I don't recall it ever being said that WB was the only one to fight Roger to a stand still.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Both roger and Garp tried to kill each other multiple times it wasn't just simple clashes




This is what was said. Everything that can be said for Garp can be said for Sengoku. There is no distinction made between the two.

He respects Garp as an opponent and compares him to one of his crewmates. So the Rayleigh comparison comes up. He would be a better match for Garp as they both were weaker than Whitebeard struck with a terminal illness.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Sengoku fought Roger but Garp was the one whom Roger made direct reference to with respect to near death experiences. Heck very early in the story, we were already told that Garp was Roger's main rival/the man who consistently cornered the Pirate King and the add the icing on the cake, the PK himself *states that they nearly killed each other*. Yes, Sengoku fought Roger as well, but he doesn't have nearly as much credence regarding his performance against Roger as Garp does.
> 
> Not that I care much for Buggy's statement given that Roger's own statement >>>> *but I don't recall it ever being said that WB was the only one to fight Roger to a stand still.*


Even if this was truly stated by Roger, the same can be said for Smoker and Luffy's rivalry. Smoker almost killed Luffy multiple times, but that doesn't mean he's his equal. Nothing about almost defeating someone over the course of a huge career makes them exactly equal, the logic doesn't hold up at all.



Even if this statement is untrue, that is because things are retconned and translations are messy, it still puts Whitebeard on a pedestal in regards to his rivalry with Roger. Above Garp, above Sengoku, above Shiki etc. That is undeniable.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 11, 2021)

Yep. This as well as trying to equate Garp relationship with Roger to that of Smoker and Luffy is all the more reason why you really shouldn't be taken seriously in this regard.


Shunsuiju said:


> Even if this statement is untrue, that is because things are retconned and translations are messy, it still puts Whitebeard on a pedestal in regards to his rivalry with Roger. Above Garp, above Sengoku, above Shiki etc. That is undeniable.


 This is a pretty silly statement. How the hell does a shitty opinion that was completely contradicted by the subject character himself make for any sort of pedestal.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

This isn't going anywhere. I've stated my case.

-Garp was weaker than Whitebeard who had declined significantly more than Garp had. How would they be equal at their best?
-Whitebeard has fought Roger for 3 days to a draw
-Whitebeard was stated to be the only man to fight to a stand still/was put on a pedestal above everyone else in regards to his rivalry with Roger

If you want to start filling in gaps be my guest. But the evidence is that Whitebeard was on par with Roger, and there is lacking evidence, in fact none at all, that Garp was on par with Roger. I could make a similarly strong case that Rayleigh was on par with Roger and Whitebeard to that of Garp's. For example, he was compared to Whitebeard's legendary status by Garp.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Garp was weaker than Whitebeard who had declined significantly more than Garp had


Based on what evidence exactly?


Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard has fought Roger for 3 days to a draw


And Garp damn near killed Roger several times, with neither ever having one upped the other.


Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard was stated to be the only man to fight to a stand still/was put on a pedestal above everyone else in regards to his rivalry with Roger


Garp was stated to be the only man to bring the PK near death and corner him consistently and was put on a pedestal above everyone else in regards to his rivalry with Roger.




Shunsuiju said:


> I could make a similarly strong case that Rayleigh was on par with Roger and Whitebeard to that of Garp's


Yeah, not like we haven't been told explicitly that Rayleigh was second to Roger in strength.


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 11, 2021)

Yeah I feel like Whitebeard and Roger were portrayed as equals in pretty much every way.

Even their clash in Oden’s flashback showed this. IMO WB/Roger were 1A, while Prime Garp was 1B. He’d give either of them extreme diff for sure.


----------



## Sherlōck (Jul 11, 2021)

Is there any instance of WB fighting Roger after GV but before Loden joined?  



Shunsuiju said:


> This is what was said.



Wrong translation.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is what was said. Everything that can be said for Garp can be said for Sengoku. There is no distinction made between the two.
> 
> He respects Garp as an opponent and compares him to one of his crewmates. So the Rayleigh comparison comes up. He would be a better match for Garp as they both were weaker than Whitebeard struck with a terminal illness.



This is a wrong translation.



Shunsuiju said:


> Even if this was truly stated by Roger, the same can be said for Smoker and Luffy's rivalry. Smoker almost killed Luffy multiple times, but that doesn't mean he's his equal. Nothing about almost defeating someone over the course of a huge career makes them exactly equal, the logic doesn't hold up at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if this statement is untrue, that is because things are retconned and translations are messy, it still puts Whitebeard on a pedestal in regards to his rivalry with Roger. Above Garp, above Sengoku, above Shiki etc. That is undeniable.



This translation is wrong too. It's hilarious you believe it because both Sengoku and Garp fought Roger too and are not dead lol

Reactions: Agree 4


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> It's hilarious you believe it because both Sengoku and Garp fought Roger too and are not dead lol


Shhhhh..... No need to point out the obvious

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

cnet128 (this guys translations are top notch)



> _5
> Flashback!Roger: Garp!! I'm going to be having a kid...! // But I'm afraid by the time my kid arrives in the world, I'll already be gone...
> Flashback!Garp: And why do you feel the need to tell this to a Marine like me, Roger?!! / Any woman with connections to you will be put straight to death, you should know that!!
> Flashback!Roger: That's why I'm telling this to you. / The Government are sure to trace all of my activities in this last year... // They'll find her, and they'll kill her!! / ...But a child who is yet to be born bears no sin, Garp!! // *The two of us have nearly killed each other so many times... we're like old pals now, aren't we?!! / I trust you as much as I'd trust my own crewmates!! // Protect my child!!*
> ...



Svg:



> _5.
> 
> 
> Roger: Garp!! I'm gonna have a kid!!
> ...




This is the correct translation for the ID conversation between Roger and Garp:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Buggy's correct translation regarding WB as the world's strongest pirate. Neither part puts WB above Garp here. WB fought Roger once to a standstill in the loot match, he is hailed as the world's strongest pirate after Roger's death. Garp was their marine equal.


*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 2


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

Does anyone have the raw for Garp's and Roger's conversation and Buggy talking about WB?


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> cnet128 (this guys translations are top notch)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also Stephen paul the current translator for viz translation had Buggy calling WB the strongest pirate



> Buggy: NO WAY!!!!
> Listen up, and I mean listen up flashy-like!!  No matter what happens, never...
> EVER do ANYTHING to Whitebeard's men!!!
> Whitebeard is...  he is...
> ...


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

edit:



@MShadows (native japanese translator) translated it like this:

_Roger: They'll find and kill her! However, a child who is yet to be born bears no sin, Garp! *You and I have nearly killed each other tens of times now... you could say we're buddies, right?* If it's you we're talking about, then I can trust you like my own crew! Protect my kid!! Garp: Nonsense! Roger: Nah... I'm sure you will. I leave my kid in your hands!_

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> couldnt find a better one in quality for the roger and garp convo.


Now to get someone to translate the and garp convo


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Now to get someone to translate the and garp convo



already done.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## JayK (Jul 11, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Is current Garp underrated? If so many people have him equal to Wb/Roger, who seemed to deteriorate the least out of the legends (Sengoku, Rayleigh, WB himself), why do most people here put him below the Yonko, C3, Mihawk, etc in a current top 10?


Yonko brigade is currently on mad Copium that's why.

current Garp is likely still an animal

Those people also literally value fucking Buggy's statement higher than that of the PK himself.


----------



## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jul 11, 2021)

No, if not then Weakgoku is also on the same level from what Roger says and what I remember is that Weakgoku and Larp had to fight at the same time to defeat Shiki.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 2


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

Gensui Ryusei Kazan said:


> No, if not then Weakgoku is also on the same level from what Roger says and what I remember is that Weakgoku and Larp had to fight at the same time to defeat Shiki.


Shiki got stomped so I don't know what your on about .

Whitebeard also hold sengoku and Garp in high regard so again I don't know what your on about


----------



## Perrin (Jul 11, 2021)

Outlived both of them and aged better with his clean marine living


----------



## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jul 11, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Shiki got stomped so I don't know what your on about .
> 
> Whitebeard also hold sengoku and Garp in high regard so again I don't know what your on about


"stomped" fighting alone against two lmao. 
And what does WB say? Weakgoku was scared shit with every move WB made and even made a plan for Squard to stab him. 
And Weakgoku full Zoan form could not one shot pre ts hakiless Luffy and Weakgoku and Larp at the same time could not with Blackbeard, so I don't know what you're talking about stinking garptard.

Reactions: Creative 1 | GODA 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 4


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

Gensui Ryusei Kazan said:


> "stomped" fighting alone against two lmao.
> And what does WB say? Weakgoku was scared shit with every move WB made and even made a plan for Squard to stab him.
> And Weakgoku full Zoan form could not one shot pre ts hakiless Luffy and Weakgoku and Larp at the same time could not with Blackbeard, so I don't know what you're talking about stinking garptard.


You're the one to that brought up Garp and Sengoku fighting in a 2v1 to downplay them. Sengoku not being able to one shot Luffy is plot or is the admirals and mihawk weak now aswell?

Or how about Kaido getting blitzed by Zoro with broken bones and being unable to K.O him with a thunder bauga or Kinemon surviving a a advanced coc hit to the head?

Garp and Sengoku was fighting Blackbeards entire crew and the two of the were only fighting Blackbeard for a chapter and literally the next chapter the war gets stopped.

Also Blackbeard goal was to sink mf and with the gura gura it should be incredibly easy to sink it but guess what he failed.


*Spoiler*: __ 










Your Garp and sengoku hate boner has caused you to lose all rational thought.


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Jul 11, 2021)

Gensui Ryusei Kazan said:


> "stomped" fighting alone against two lmao.
> And what does WB say? Weakgoku was scared shit with every move WB made and even made a plan for Squard to stab him.
> And Weakgoku full Zoan form could not one shot pre ts hakiless Luffy and Weakgoku and Larp at the same time could not with Blackbeard, so I don't know what you're talking about stinking garptard.


Stfu dude and log off.
I lose more brain cells every time I read your posts.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> cnet128 (this guys translations are top notch)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Firstly, what makes cnet's translation more credible?

Secondly, I already explained how "killing each other multiple times" has no effect on Roger and Garp being equals. Smoker nearly killed Luffy many times. Lucci, Crocodile, Moria and Enel nearly killed Luffy.

Hell, Shiki almost killed Roger.


TheWiggian said:


> Buggy's correct translation regarding WB as the world's strongest pirate. Neither part puts WB above Garp here. WB fought Roger once to a standstill in the loot match, he is hailed as the world's strongest pirate after Roger's death. Garp was their marine equal.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Again, what makes this translation more credible?

And that quote is literally the same. "Whitebeard _alone _fought the Pirate King to a standstill" is the exact same as saying "Whitebeard is the only man to fight Roger to a standstill". Point to be taken is that 1.) Whitebeard fought Roger to a standstill and 2.) It singles him out as someone capable of doing so.


TheWiggian said:


> This translation is wrong too. It's hilarious you believe it because both Sengoku and Garp fought Roger too and are not dead lol


I already admitted that the translation was messy or the quote was retconned in the future.

The other one you submitted though shared the same sentiment. Oda was putting Whitebeard on a pedestal.

Reactions: Creative 1


----------



## trance (Jul 11, 2021)




----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Firstly, what makes cnet's translation more credible?



Because it's accurately translated by multiple translators in the same manner unlike the version you used?



Shunsuiju said:


> Secondly, I already explained how "killing each other multiple times" has no effect on Roger and Garp being equals. Smoker nearly killed Luffy many times. Lucci, Crocodile, Moria and Enel nearly killed Luffy.



Yet none of these cases have ever been brought up? 



Shunsuiju said:


> Hell, Shiki almost killed Roger.



When? 



Shunsuiju said:


> Again, what makes this translation more credible?



Because it's accuratey translated by multiple translators in the same manner unlike the version you used?



Shunsuiju said:


> And that quote is literally the same. "Whitebeard _alone _fought the Pirate King to a standstill" is the exact same as saying "Whitebeard is the only man to fight Roger to a standstill". Point to be taken is that 1.) Whitebeard fought Roger to a standstill and 2.) It singles him out as someone capable of doing so.



Yes WB fought Roger alone, he had no support from other characters it was a one on one as we have seen.



Shunsuiju said:


> I already admitted that the translation was messy or the quote was retconned in the future.
> 
> The other one you submitted though shared the same sentiment. Oda was putting Whitebeard on a pedestal.



Yep and Oda put Garp on the same pedestal as Roger, by Roger's own words and the god valley incident.

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Vivo Diez (Jul 11, 2021)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Yes.





Anyone putting Garp a tier below Roger, or even significantly below Roger by any amount, need to be banished just like the DD = YC1 of their day.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jul 11, 2021)

Code said:


> Stfu dude and log off.
> I lose more brain cells every time I read your posts.


Say what you want garptard to avoid the truth. 

- The fucking lengoku in full form Zoan could not one shots pre ts hakiless Luffy. 

- But the fucking Lengoku in base form and with one hand turned the Bloodlusted Larp into his pet by dominating it easily. 

- Larp and Lengoku full form Zoan could not with Blackbeard. 

- Larp after the war had bandages for the punch that he received from pre ts hakiless Luffy. 

And despite all that crap the garptards say Larp is stronger than the admirals. 

Hold my damn beer larptards.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 4


----------



## Perrin (Jul 11, 2021)

Vivo Diez said:


> Anyone putting Garp a tier below Roger, or even significantly below Roger by any amount, need to be banished just like the DD = YC1 of their day.


I need banishing


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 11, 2021)

Gensui Ryusei Kazan said:


> No, if not then Weakgoku is also on the same level from what Roger says and what I remember is that Weakgoku and Larp had to fight at the same time to defeat Shiki.


Lol Larp. You missed calling him Shitki though

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Tsukuyomi (Jul 11, 2021)

Gensui Ryusei Kazan said:


> Say what you want garptard to avoid the truth.
> 
> - The fucking lengoku in full form Zoan could not one shots pre ts hakiless Luffy.
> 
> ...


----------



## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Jul 11, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> Lol Larp. You missed calling him Shitki though


Why? No one writes overrated crap or denies things about him.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

If only Garp took the promotion he could have been on the same level as the C3   

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Because it's accurately translated by multiple translators in the same manner unlike the version you used?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So why was Whitebeard the strongest man with his illness when Garp was around?


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Based on what evidence exactly?





Kroczilla said:


> Yeah, not like we haven't been told explicitly that Rayleigh was second to Roger in strength.


When?


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> So why was Whitebeard the strongest man with his illness when Garp was around?



Ask Oda, why would the WSM only draw with a man confirmed below him?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> So why was Whitebeard the strongest man with his illness when Garp was around?


Because he had the title before the great age of pirates and from what we know that Garp never challenged Whitbeard for his title.

Whitbeard getting sick isn't going to automatically strip him of his title.


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 11, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Because he had the title before the great age of pirates and from what we know that Garp never challenged Whitbeard for his title.
> 
> Whitbeard getting sick isn't going to automatically strip him of his title.


But then that opens the floodgates to WB not actually being WSM during MF if that’s the case.  It would mean that his title is just a relic or holdover rather than him being decisively the WSM. I do agree that Garp strikes me as the guy that wouldn’t really care for titles but could contend for it if he wanted but if we start doing this then that means titles aren’t ironclad and it would also at the least dead Mihawk being >Shanks cause he has the title.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Ask Oda, why would the WSM only draw with a man confirmed below him?


Nice circular logic. Looks like I've won this debate.


MrPopo said:


> Because he had the title before the great age of pirates and from what we know that Garp never challenged Whitbeard for his title.
> 
> Whitbeard getting sick isn't going to automatically strip him of his title.


That's not how the title works. He was the strongest man, just like Mihawk is the strongest swordsman. That means there isn't some secret strongest man or swordsman where no one can see.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Nice circular logic. Looks like I've won this debate.



If that helps you sleep better sure. The fact you accept one statement while discarding the other is a testament to your delusion.

Why would it matter that WB has the WS title if he couldn't beat Roger despite being the strongest Man in the world?

Ofc you can keep dodging that question, it's not like you had any argument in the first place regarding his title.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> If that helps you sleep better sure. The fact you accept one statement while discarding the other is a testament to your delusion.
> 
> Why would it matter that WB has the WS title if he couldn't beat Roger despite being the strongest Man in the world?
> 
> Ofc you can keep dodging that question, it's not like you had any argument in the first place regarding his title.


Whitebeard was the WSM post Roger's death. The two were stated to have fought to standstill.


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard was the WSM post Roger's death. The two were stated to have fought to standstill.


I thought he had the title while Roger was alive.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 11, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard was the WSM post Roger's death. The two were stated to have fought to standstill.



Why only after Roger's death? To be precise he's been hailed as the strongest pirate after Roger's death as clarified by Buggy's speech. Pirate not man.

We also know WB fought Roger many times but only managed to get a single standstill in the loot match.



Garp on the other hand has equal portrayal at GV and a confirmed growth rate equal to Roger based on their fights to a near death state until Roger turned himself in.

In the end, what is more impressive?

A single standstill with Roger's or nearly killing Roger multiple times while being constantly portrayed to be the pirate kings equal?

*World's strongest Pirate:* Garp is a marine, no one cares.

*World's strongest Man:* Only after Roger is gone (who Garp was constantly portrayed and hyped as an equal to) and who WB never fought based on the info we had.



Even though I find Garp more impressive I have all 3 of them as equals. Roger and WB have supreme blades and the latter the strongest paramecia while Garp is on their level with just love for fisting.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 11, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> Why only after Roger's death? To be precise he's been hailed as the strongest pirate after Roger's death as clarified by Buggy's speech. Pirate not man.
> 
> We also know WB fought Roger many times but only managed to get a single standstill in the loot match.
> 
> ...


That's all a bunch of nonsense.



Whitebeard was the strongest man. Period.

Add the fact that Whitebeard dropped off so significantly since his prime compared to Garp, this is not even a super close match in their younger days.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


----------



## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Jul 11, 2021)

Roger is the Pirate King; whereas Newgate is the Strongest Man in the World. What title does Garp has to this two legends? A nobody.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1 | Dislike 2


----------



## Zero (Jul 12, 2021)

He has to be unless Oda wasn't serious when writing that Roger and Garp have almost killed each other in their Primes. 

"THE TWO OF US HAVE NEARLY KILLED EACH OTHER SO MANY TIMES"

In order to nearly kill someone in a fight multiple times both characters have to be equal to each other.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 12, 2021)

Zero said:


> He has to be unless Oda wasn't serious when writing that Roger and Garp have almost killed each other in their Primes.
> 
> "THE TWO OF US HAVE NEARLY KILLED EACH OTHER SO MANY TIMES"
> 
> In order to nearly kill someone in a fight multiple times both characters have to be equal to each other.


A fairly simple concept that so many are seemingly unable to grasp.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> A fairly simple concept that so many are seemingly unable to grasp.


Which part of 'Whitebeard is the strongest man and thus stronger than Garp' do you not understand?

I've already disproven the "almost killed each other many times" quote by using Luffy as an example to show how many characters have on one end almost killed him, and on the other are definitely not equal to him. The perfect example being Smoker, who in many ways reflects Garp. But mostly any villain Luffy has encountered who almost killed him. Not to mention how many various of different ways Garp could have been in position to almost kill Roger, including having Sengoku aid him.

The most important part is that Roger was far from stating they "fought to a standstill" or "were on equal terms". Things that were stated and shown in regards to Whitebeard and Roger's relationship. What we have is a vague statement that could have a dozen different meanings which allows all of you to make your own assumptions and fill in gaps left in the material.

So I will ask once more - why was Whitebeard stronger than Garp at Marineford if they were equal at any point prior? This is something that overrides any of the previous "assumption making" and "gap filling" work, and makes it clear that Whitebeard, and by extension Roger, were superior to Garp. No ifs, ands or buts.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 2 | Dislike 1


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Nice circular logic. Looks like I've won this debate.
> 
> That's not how the title works. He was the strongest man, just like Mihawk is the strongest swordsman. That means there isn't some secret strongest man or swordsman where no one can see.


Wow then I guess Zoro can never surpass Mihawk as Mihawk title will mean he always  wins. 

We already know Whitebeard had the title and before Roger and was matched equally by him. It like if the current boxing champ draws in a fight he/she is still going to keep the title.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard was the WSM post Roger's death. The two were stated to have fought to standstill.


Nope secondary cannon the vivire card states WB got his title before the great age of pirates


----------



## trance (Jul 12, 2021)

so basically, either 

wb > roger = garp 

or roger = wb = garp

take your pick

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's all a bunch of nonsense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WB was the strongest Man after Garp's constantly portrayed equal called Roger died while WB never fought Garp to our knowledge. 

WB did never beat Roger in any encounters and he was in his prime when the loot match happened, so further growth is excluded too.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Wow then I guess Zoro can never surpass Mihawk as Mihawk title will mean he always  wins.
> 
> We already know Whitebeard had the title and before Roger and was matched equally by him. It like if the current boxing champ draws in a fight he/she is still going to keep the title.


Well when someone does surpass Mihawk, he will no longer have the title. That hasn't happened yet.

Whitebeard was called the strongest man by the narrator. There's nothing complicated about it, he's just the strongest man. Sengoku agreed to this even after Whitebeard was stabbed.


MrPopo said:


> Nope secondary cannon the vivire card states WB got his title before the great age of pirates


I remember that same source calling Shanks a Yonko 12 years ago, when he was confirmed to have become one only 6 years ago in canon. Again, you guys are making assumptions and theorycrafting when it was plainly stated in the manga that Whitebeard was the strongest man while Garp was alive.

I also find it hilarious how quick you are to run to your "secondary canon" when it suits your own agenda. And reject all credibility when not


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> WB was the strongest Man after Garp's constantly portrayed equal called Roger died while WB never fought Garp to our knowledge.
> 
> *WB did never beat Roger in any encounters* and he was in his prime when the loot match happened, so further growth is excluded too.


That's not how it works. Whitebeard was the strongest man because he is stronger than any other human alive.

Based on?


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Well when someone does surpass Mihawk, he will no longer have the title. That hasn't happened yet.
> 
> Whitebeard was called the strongest man by the narrator. There's nothing complicated about it, he's just the strongest man. Sengoku agreed to this even after Whitebeard was stabbed.
> 
> ...


Your whole point was how Garp is inferior to a sick mf whitebeard due to his title even tho we never saw him fight mf whitebeard. 

Yea Whitebeard had the strongest title however we already saw how he tied with Roger , it's not impossible for Garp to be equal to WB. Also funny how you treat Buggys word as absolute for Whitebeard being the only one to stalemate Roger but conveniently leave how Buggy refers to Whitebeard as the worlds strongest pirate which would not include Garp.

The difference between Shanks and WB is that the shanks card is speculation by saying it's 


> *It's also very heavily implied that Shanks became a Yonko before he met Luffy, meaning he might've already been one in the events of Luffys flashback.*



*Spoiler*: __ 









Where as for whitebeards vivire card it's stated as a fact


> *Whitebeard attained the title "strongest in the world" well before the Great age of Pirates*



Secondary cannon is still more credible than head-cannon as it gives an in-universe explanation of when Whitebeard obtained his title instead of the community head-cannon of whitebeard getting it after Roger dead. Until there is something in the manga or a statement by Oda that contradicts the vivire card it should be treated by cannon.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Your whole point was how Garp is inferior to a sick mf whitebeard due to his title even tho we never saw him fight mf whitebeard.
> 
> Yea Whitebeard had the strongest title however we already saw how he tied with Roger , it's not impossible for Garp to be equal to WB. Also funny how you treat Buggys word as absolute for Whitebeard being the only one to stalemate Roger but conveniently leave how Buggy refers to Whitebeard as the worlds strongest pirate which would not include Garp.


The earliest we know for a fact of Whitebeard having the title of strongest man was in chapter 234. Although, Sengoku confirmed he was still the strongest/most dangerous man after being stabbed by Squard:



We were never informed in the manga that he had the title at any point prior to 234, but we can infer that he likely had it for a long time, but not as Roger was living because we saw them draw in a 3 day fight and Buggy stated they were equal.

What you're saying is that if Roger was still alive, Whitebeard would be called the strongest man/pirate. That makes no sense, when we know Buggy's reference point for Whitebeard being the strongest was that Roger was no longer around.


MrPopo said:


> The difference between Shanks and WB is that the shanks card is speculation by saying it's
> 
> 
> 
> ...




He states that it is not referring to 'power level'. So they are two different things.


MrPopo said:


> Secondary cannon is still more credible than head-cannon as it gives an in-universe explanation of when Whitebeard obtained his title instead of the community head-cannon of whitebeard getting it after Roger dead. Until there is something in the manga or a statement by Oda that contradicts the vivire card it should be treated by cannon.


It is contradicted by the fact that Roger and Whitebeard tied in the manga, and were stated to have fought to a standstill by Buggy, who was a first hand witness to their fights. Unless you think the title "strongest man" has some kind of different meaning which you would like to elaborate on other than being the defacto strongest man.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> That's not how it works. Whitebeard was the strongest man because he is stronger than any other human alive.
> 
> Based on?



I would also like to know what this is based on too?

We know from the main source that WB could at best equal Roger "once" and a secondary confirms he was the WSM during that event.

So you gotta choose:

1. WB > Roger and Garp

or

2. WB = Roger and Garp.

If you choose the first option how do you explain that WB couldn't win against Roger a single time?

The second option has no flaws and combines the information of all sources into one.


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I would also like to know what this is based on? We know from the main source that WB could at best equal Roger "once" and a secondary confirms he was the WSM druing that event. So you gotta choose WB > Roger and Garp or WB = Roger and Garp. If you choose the second option how do you explain that WB couldn't win against Roger a single time?


This is failed attempt at rhetoric. The secondary material is not canon.

I'm starting to think Dragon D. Xebec was one of your dupes.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> The secondary material is not canon.


Secondary material is canon until the primary material provides contradictory information.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Secondary material is canon until the primary material provides contradictory information.


Canon is official material. There is no other definition.

Accepting something as true or fact before falsifying it is wrong on so many levels.

This is ironic coming from someone who was against using the databook to prove Marco is Admiral level. All I ask for is consistent logic.


----------



## Kroczilla (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Canon is official material. There is no other definition.
> 
> Accepting something as true or fact before falsifying it is wrong on so many levels.
> 
> This is ironic coming from someone who was against using the databook to prove Marco is Admiral level. All I ask for is consistent logic.


Secondary canon IS official material.

Also Marco not being Admiral lvl is due to the clear disparity shown between him and other admirals as well as his getting shit stomped by Teach. A classic example of Primary canon contradicting what was stated in the secondary canon material. 

I am consistent. You on the other hand want to place statements from scrubs like buggy over the words of the PK himself.


----------



## Strobacaxi (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is ironic coming from someone who was against using the databook to prove Marco is Admiral level.


I don't know what the databook says about that, but the manga clearly says the opposite, so in that case, yes, the databook should be ignored.

There's nothing in the manga contradicting WB being WSM before Roger died


----------



## Eustathios (Jul 12, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> I don't know what the databook says about that, but the manga clearly says the opposite, so in that case, yes, the databook should be ignored.
> 
> *There's nothing in the manga contradicting WB being WSM before Roger died*


You can't be the strongest if someone else is your equal.


----------



## Strobacaxi (Jul 12, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> You can't be the strongest if someone else is your equal.


Actually you can, and tbh WB probably was technically stronger than Roger.

His DF is too strong, and he can't use it to it's full potential because he'd sink the island and die. He always has to hold back a bit. If he tied with Roger while holding back then he's stronger.

He just can't use his full power, but that doesn't mean that it's not there


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> Actually you can, and tbh WB probably was technically stronger than Roger.


This is a hot take.

It's not true, but it's hot


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 12, 2021)

roger- uses a sword like a bitch
wb- uses a bisento AND a df like a bitch
garp- rolls his sleeves up and goes to work
have fun with your slander but it's all right here.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## TheWiggian (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> This is failed attempt at rhetoric. The secondary material is not canon.
> 
> I'm starting to think Dragon D. Xebec was one of your dupes.



I can only work with the information iam given. WB could only standstill Roger and another source confirmed he was the WSM when that happened. 

Idc about the rest. It just shows that the WSM can have equals.

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## walter18x (Jul 12, 2021)

Nah, old wb = yonkou lvl
Old garp = weaker than admirals

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> I can only work with the information iam given. WB could only standstill Roger and another source confirmed he was the WSM when that happened.
> 
> *Idc about the rest. It just shows that the WSM can have equals.*


That other source *specifically said* that it didn't have to do with powerlevels.

"strongest"

"Can have equals"

 


truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> roger- uses a sword like a bitch
> wb- uses a bisento AND a df like a bitch
> garp- rolls his sleeves up and goes to work
> have fun with your slander but it's all right here.


That just makes him weaker than them. Given him a cool sword like "Ace" or the Gura and maybe he could compete.. maybe.

Reactions: Dislike 2


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 12, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> That just makes him weaker than them. Given him a cool sword like "Ace" or the Gura and maybe he could compete.. maybe.


If he had the gura he would stomp don't down play it. It's one of the strongest dfs.


----------



## trance (Jul 12, 2021)

i can actually get behind wb being stronger than roger

before, we were most likely led to believe that roger's haki was on such another level compared to wb's that wb needed the gura gura to match him, leading to them being equals

but as we saw in the flashback, wb's haki is perfectly equal to roger's and then went on to stalemate roger for 3 days without using his fruit or at least heavy usage of it

which ties into wb being the undisputed strongest while garp is alive without taking away from garp's standing as roger's equal

tldr wb > roger = garp just might be true


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 12, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> If he had the gura he would stomp don't down play it. It's one of the strongest dfs.


True SHITrohige sounds like a massive fraud tbh.

>has a supreme grade blade that he couldn't even blacken after all those battles with Roger which proves their battles were little more than sparring matches while Roger and Garp's fights were to the death
>wasn't enough to have a supreme grade blade he also has the strongest DF on top of that
>wasn't even a true conqueror but followed Rocks and played house with his band of orphans instead of having actual ambition like Roger or his protege Teach

Wouldn't be surprised if the God Valley Incident makes Roger and Garp look much better than WB and after all as those two stand side by side taking down Xebec, while Rayleigh can take down WB. Just imagine if Mihawk had a logia devil fruit or Shanks had the Gura, I'd sure fucking hope those two would be the undisputed strongest characters.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Shunsuiju (Jul 12, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> If he had the gura he would stomp don't down play it. It's one of the strongest dfs.


And Whitebeard didn't use it against Roger, otherwise the island would be been destroyed.


Dead Precedence said:


> >has a supreme grade blade that he couldn't even blacken after all those battles with Roger which proves their battles were little more than sparring matches while Roger and Garp's fights were to the death


So does Roger.


Dead Precedence said:


> >wasn't enough to have a supreme grade blade he also has the strongest DF on top of that


Whitebeard didn't use it against Roger, otherwise the island would be been destroyed.


Dead Precedence said:


> >wasn't even a true conqueror but followed Rocks and played house with his band of orphans instead of having actual ambition like Roger or his protege Teach


What does "true conqueror" even mean?


Dead Precedence said:


> Wouldn't be surprised if the God Valley Incident makes Roger and Garp look much better than WB and after all as those two stand side by side taking down Xebec, while Rayleigh can take down WB. Just imagine if Mihawk had a logia devil fruit or Shanks had the Gura, I'd sure fucking hope those two would be the undisputed strongest characters.


No. Just no.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jul 12, 2021)

Trance said:


> i can actually get behind wb being stronger than roger
> 
> before, we were most likely led to believe that roger's haki was on such another level compared to wb's that wb needed the gura gura to match him, leading to them being equals
> 
> ...


You saw all of like 30 seconds of a 3 day fight. You’d be hard-pressed to think that a DF user engaged in a 3 day battle without once using his DF abilities, especially when he subsequently used it after the fight when Roger asked him to borrow Oden.

Truth of the matter is, WB stalemated a terminally ill Roger.


----------



## trance (Jul 12, 2021)

sanninme rikudo said:


> You saw all of like 30 seconds of a 3 day fight. You’d be hard-pressed to think that a DF user engaged in a 3 day battle without once using his DF abilities, especially when he subsequently used it after the fight when Roger asked him to borrow Oden.
> 
> Truth of the matter is, WB stalemated a terminally ill Roger.



that's cool bro

im just not excluding the possibility of him not using it

could he have used his fruit in the fight? maybe

could he not have used it in the fight? also maybe


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 12, 2021)

Trance said:


> that's cool bro
> 
> im just not excluding the possibility of him not using it
> 
> ...


It’s silly to act as if those have equal likelihood. Is it possible? Yeah we didn’t see, but it’s far fetched to assume so without solid evidence


----------



## trance (Jul 12, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> It’s silly to act as if those have equal likelihood. Is it possible? Yeah we didn’t see, but it’s far fetched to assume so without solid evidence



hey man, im not the one who wrote that wb was the wsm before roger's death which hasn't exactly been contradicted in-story :/


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 12, 2021)

Trance said:


> hey man, im not the one who wrote that wb was the wsm before roger's death which hasn't exactly been contradicted in-story :/


Even if you think wb is stronger if wb can fight him for 3 days without his fruit that means he’s massively stronger


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 13, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> So does Roger.


Roger doesn't have a DF though


Shunsuiju said:


> Whitebeard didn't use it against Roger, otherwise the island would be been destroyed.


Destroying the island would just be shooting himself in the foot though since he and his crew are the DF users. Roger's crew, that we know of, have no DF so unless WB was feeling suicidal he'd have no reason to destroy the island.

But that's besides the point, I'd sure hope he'd sandbag on one of his good friends who has pirate aids and was about to die. Imagine going all out against your friend in a sparring match that has terminal cancer when you two used to spar heavily all the time.


Shunsuiju said:


> What does "true conqueror" even mean?


One that was at not point ever subservient to someone else. WB and all the yonko are frauds unworthy of the term conqueror.  Roger is pirate king for a reason and WB's former captain's will lives on in his protege Teach. Morever, we know that Rocks' crew was a hierarchy based on strength so he bent the knee to someone stronger, Roger would never do that. inb4 him groveling at his feet to ask for Oden, that's different he wouldn't ever serve as a Righ Hand Man to another pirate like WB did.


Shunsuiju said:


> No. Just no.


Yes, just yes. Any of the color trio with a supreme grade blade would shoot up another tier and all be the WSM. Mihawk with a logia would at the least be equal to Old WB. Like I said SHITrohige is a fraud, without Gura he's Oden level at best, remove his naginata and he'd be Fujitora level at best (definitely weaker than the C3), remove both and I think the WB pirates would have to find a new captain as Marco would be stronger. 

Now add Garp who was very close to them at the very worst, but equal to them at the best with either a Supreme grade blade or DF and he's decisively the strongest, but Garp isn't the type to care about such empty titles when he turned down a more prestigious title which was admiral anyway. Add both since SHITrohige lived life on easy mode training wheels and he'd be tier 0 and knock Roger and WB down to the levels of Shiki/Sengoku and would be stronger than Imu/Joyboy/Xebec etc.

Also legit wouldn't be surprised if the GV incident has Garp and Roger as the true equals all along with WB as a red herring, fraud, and he was the one who was a step below the entire time. Like I said Garp and Roger 2v1 Xebec, Rayleigh (who's the oldest out of all the legends) takes down WB who either didn't hit his prime or JUST hit it. Scopper takes down Shiki/Big Mom, Buggy and Shanks take down Kaido. Like I said WBcoin will take a huge hit once the GV incident pops up.


*Spoiler*: __ 



trolling aside though, you can't downplay how much an op devil fruit would boost one of the top tiers in the rankings. A high top tier like Mihawk or Shanks with a busted DF could legit probably be on old WB's level. Look at how much of a boost BB got with his fruit after training it for a bit.  It shot him up to top tier, so no reason to see why someone like Shanks/Mihawk wouldn't at least shoot up a sub tier with a broken DF


----------



## JayK (Jul 13, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> the God Valley Incident makes Roger and Garp look much better than WB


this tbh

but those things are conveniently ignored, instead Garp is weaker than shitters like Laido and Meme now

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 13, 2021)

I'm almost pretty sure that Whitebeard defected in God Valley though. 

His disdain for the memories with his former crew seems apparent enough. While Garp & Roger double-teamed Xebec to take him down, it's possible Newgate could've kicked Kaido's ass or fought off Big Mom or Shiki, while Rayleigh and Scopper dealt with a couple of them or the rest of the crew like Silver Axe, etc.


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 13, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> I'm almost pretty sure that Whitebeard defected in God Valley though.
> 
> His disdain for the memories with his former crew seems apparent enough. While Garp & Roger double-teamed Xebec to take him down, it's possible Newgate could've kicked Kaido's ass or fought off Big Mom or Shiki, while Rayleigh and Scopper dealt with a couple of them or the rest of the crew like Silver Axe, etc.


The guy that had an iron clad rule not to kill crewmates wouldn't defect and attack his own crewmates.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Useful 1


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 13, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> The guy that had an iron clad rule not to kill crewmates wouldn't defect and attack his own crewmates.



He established his principles when he was leading his own crew. 

I agree that WB would choose to avoid fighting his own crew mates (since he believed in a team and had no ego), but the Rocks were honestly dysfunctional and it was implied that they never got along. It was probably not a situation that WB wanted to remain in. 

Plus we know Kaido fought him before in the past, possibly a couple times. Rocks are volatile, and are known for infighting throughout their careers.


----------



## Eustathios (Jul 13, 2021)

I don't necessarily think WB betrayed Rocks and he certainly did not flee (not a single scar on his back remember). That said I also don't think the man would be willing to sacrifice everything for maniac like Rocks. With his power to destroy anything in his path, I doubt he fought with the intention of killing Roger and Garp who came for them. He spoke with disdain for his former crew and it's still unclear why he even joined. Whatever the case may be, Oda is not disrespecting WB when the flashback drops. The man is treated with nothing but sheer respect and awe whenever he's on panel. We'll see, the Rocks incident is still unclear.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 13, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> I don't necessarily think WB betrayed Rocks and he certainly did not flee (not a single scar on his back remember). That said I also don't think the man would be willing to sacrifice everything for maniac like Rocks. With his power to destroy anything in his path, I doubt he fought with the intention of killing Roger and Garp who came for them. He spoke with disdain for his former crew and it's still unclear why he even joined. Whatever the case may be, Oda is not disrespecting WB when the flashback drops. The man is treated with nothing but sheer respect and awe whenever he's on panel. We'll see, the Rocks incident is still unclear.



True, fair fair fair.

It's possible he fought half-heartedly in God valley, and a betrayal or mutiny does seem beneath him. It will be very interesting to know why or how he joined Xebec. I assume he must have been quite young and maybe had little agency at the time (since we know he grew up from poverty before setting out to sea).

But yeah, It sounded like the Rocks had a fallout since they were a timebomb waiting to explode. They were the strongest, but just way too volatile. And I just feel like the numbers make sense if you think about Whitebeard defecting to tip the scales, since I doubt Rayleigh and the rest would've been enough to hold off WB, Big Mom, Kaido, _and _Shiki.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Perrin (Jul 13, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> True, fair fair fair.
> 
> It's possible he fought half-heartedly in God valley, and a betrayal or mutiny does seem beneath him. It will be very interesting to know why or how he joined Xebec. I assume he must have been quite young and maybe had little agency at the time (since we know he grew up from poverty before setting out to sea).
> 
> But yeah, It sounded like the Rocks had a fallout since they were a timebomb waiting to explode. They were the strongest, but just way too volatile. And I just feel like the numbers make sense if you think about Whitebeard defecting to tip the scales, since I doubt Rayleigh and the rest would've been enough to hold off WB, Big Mom, Kaido, _and _Shiki.


This seems to entirely depend on how strong the would be yonkous were at the time. They may have had a time skip after the crew disbanded to become much stronger and thus were comparable to scopper and rayleigh and others at the time.


----------



## Eustathios (Jul 13, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> True, fair fair fair.
> 
> It's possible he fought half-heartedly in God valley, and a betrayal or mutiny does seem beneath him. It will be very interesting to know why or how he joined Xebec. I assume he must have been quite young and maybe had little agency at the time (since we know he grew up from poverty before setting out to sea).
> 
> But yeah, It sounded like the Rocks had a fallout since they were a timebomb waiting to explode. They were the strongest, but just way too volatile. And I just feel like the numbers make sense if you think about Whitebeard defecting to tip the scales, since I doubt Rayleigh and the rest would've been enough to hold off WB, Big Mom, Kaido, _and _Shiki.


It's very, very likely that they fell apart when push came to shove and it was every man for himself. There would be no reason for someone as strong as WB to be so extremely cautious of who he brought aboard and give an angry lecture to Oden on crew synergy. Then there's Sengoku telling us they had fierce fights even among themselves. Both highlighted the same thing so I would be surprised if this isn't brought up again in the flashback or recounting of what happened.


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 13, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> He established his principles when he was leading his own crew.
> 
> I agree that WB would choose to avoid fighting his own crew mates (since he believed in a team and had no ego), but the Rocks were honestly dysfunctional and it was implied that they never got along. It was probably not a situation that WB wanted to remain in.
> 
> Plus we know Kaido fought him before in the past, possibly a couple times. Rocks are volatile, and are known for infighting throughout their careers.


Yes the rocks pirates were disfunctional and many crew members tried to kill each other however Whitebeard is not the type of person to betray his captain when shit hits the fan he's going to be leading from the front. 

For Kaido fighting Whitbeard, I think he was similar to how Ace vs Whitebeard went he constantly challenged him and lost


----------



## MrPopo (Jul 13, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> It's very, very likely that they fell apart when push came to shove and it was every man for himself. There would be no reason for someone as strong as WB to be so extremely cautious of who he brought aboard and give an angry lecture to Oden on crew synergy. Then there's Sengoku telling us they had fierce fights even among themselves. Both highlighted the same thing so I would be surprised if this isn't brought up again in the flashback or recounting of what happened.


My head cannon is that after Xebec was defeated all of the rocks pirates abandoned him Kaidos words seem to hint that. As for Whitebeard after seeing his captain defeated and his crew fleeing he would have stop fighting and left on his own occurd

Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Mihawk (Jul 13, 2021)

Eustathios said:


> It's very, very likely that they fell apart when push came to shove and it was every man for himself. *There would be no reason for someone as strong as WB to be so extremely cautious of who he brought aboard and give an angry lecture to Oden on crew synergy. Then there's Sengoku telling us they had fierce fights even among themselves.* Both highlighted the same thing so I would be surprised if this isn't brought up again in the flashback or recounting of what happened.


Exactly. That lecture to Oden sticks out, because it's him speaking from his experiences with his old crew, which seemed to have left a bitter impression overall on his mind. A fallout was possibly involved.



MrPopo said:


> Yes the rocks pirates were disfunctional and many crew members tried to kill each other however Whitebeard is not the type of person to betray his captain when shit hits the fan he's going to be leading from the front.


That's true. GV Incident remains unclear. We still have no idea what Xebec's personality was like. He seemed to be anti-government and harming the CDs is actually kind of a respectable thing in itself. We also have hints that he might've been terrifying, since he kept this crew together and possibly led by fear and intimidation.

More information of his relationship with Whitebeard would likely clear this up. I agree that as an honorable man, Whitebeard wouldn't betray his captain or turn on his crew in the moment of truth...but I just wonder if Xebec was actually a despicable person, and if Lin Lin and Shiki were already at his throat constantly.



MrPopo said:


> For Kaido fighting Whitbeard, I think he was similar to how Ace vs Whitebeard went he constantly challenged him and lost



Agreed. Kaido was just an apprentice back then, so he likely took a lotta Ls at the time.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 13, 2021)

If Rayleigh does clash with WB in the GV incident though does that mean WB coin drops or Rayleigh coin skyrockets?


----------



## Perrin (Jul 13, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> If Rayleigh does clash with WB in the GV incident though does that mean WB coin drops or Rayleigh coin skyrockets?


It means to lines on a graph can cross without it being a reflection on where they started or ended up.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShadoLord (Jul 13, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> If Rayleigh does clash with WB in the GV incident though does that mean WB coin drops or Rayleigh coin skyrockets?


Mfw Garp already implied that when he mentioned Rayleigh as a legend alongside Whitebeard this whole time

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 13, 2021)

Perrin said:


> It means to lines on a graph can cross without it being a reflection on where they started or ended up.


I doubt anyone other than Xebec were in their prime during God Valley and like someone else said there's too many variables to even hypothesize matchups. Such as Garp & Roger 2v1ing Xebec, one of them handles Xebec the other WB, WB defecting, Rayleigh dealing with WB and Scopper one of the other Yonko, hell it's possible though, highly unlikely, the Roger Pirates weren't even there.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Sherlōck (Jul 13, 2021)

Dead Precedence said:


> If Rayleigh does clash with WB in the GV incident though does that mean WB coin drops or Rayleigh coin skyrockets?



I mean I always considered Prime Ray to be a top tier as strong as current Shanks.

So, for me Rayleigh's stocks stays wherever I put it.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 13, 2021)

I’ve been half kidding with most of my posts but to think that anyone like shanks and mihawk let alone garp and Roger got the gura they wouldn’t be the undisputed strongest seems like it downplays the fruit

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Jul 17, 2021)

Zero said:


> He has to be unless Oda wasn't serious when writing that Roger and Garp have almost killed each other in their Primes.
> 
> "THE TWO OF US HAVE NEARLY KILLED EACH OTHER SO MANY TIMES"
> 
> In order to nearly kill someone in a fight multiple times both characters have to be equal to each other.


That is one definition of an out of context statement, because for one we never saw them fight. I mean Roger could have been terminally ill at this time when he fought against Garp, who knows.


----------



## truedetectiveseason2intro (Jul 17, 2021)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> That is one definition of an out of context statement, because for one we never saw them fight. I mean Roger could have been terminally ill at this time when he fought against Garp, who knows.


yeah since we didn't see all their fights so that's what we should assume. we have to assume that about whitebeard too since the only time we saw them fight roger was terminally ill.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Dead Precedence (Jul 17, 2021)

I just realized that this argument is pretty much the Admirals vs Yonko debate for the old gen.


----------



## Fel1x (Jul 17, 2021)

below but extreme diff for both Roger and Prime WB

after all Garp failed to capture Roger despite Marines always being at advantage over pirates


----------

