# Clones vs. US Army



## The Saltiest Pizza (Dec 10, 2010)

This debate came up between me and a friend of mine.
I'm too lazy to see if this was already done, so sue me. 

Anyways.

Clone Army from Star Wars vs. the modern US Army.


Scenario 1.) The Clone Army as of Star Wars Episode 2 in the battle of Geonosis.

Scenario 2.) The Clone Army as of Star Wars Episode 3.



Both sides only have ground forces (with vehicles for both). So no ships or orbital bombardments or anything. Also, no Jedi.

Battle field is an evacuated New York City. Which side takes this?


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## Devil Kings (Dec 10, 2010)

Clones army surpasses any mere human soldier any day of the weak. Adding there weapons, and technology makes it even worse for the US Army.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Dec 10, 2010)

Devil Kings said:


> Clones army surpasses any mere human soldier any day of the weak. Adding there weapons, and technology makes it even worse for the US Army.



Talking with my friend, interesting points were brought up, such as whether or not Clone armor could stop bullets, or whether or not an ATTE could stand up to the punch packed by an M1 Tank. Your thoughts?


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## Blue (Dec 10, 2010)

Clone army have what I can only assume is bullet-resistant full-body armor they can actually move relatively freely in which is a ridiculous advantage in urban combat.

Plus the modern US Army is absolutely dependent on air support for operations.

Pretty much a rape.



Colonel Awesome said:


> Talking with my friend, interesting points were brought up, such as whether or not Clone armor could stop bullets, or whether or not an ATTE could stand up to the punch packed by an M1 Tank. Your thoughts?



Are the ATTEs those little flying dorkmobiles they bomb around in?

Probably not, anything made of anything approaching a "normal" material will get cornholed by a depleted uranium 120mm round.

The armor, however, I'd assume is bulletproof. If a culture that's been spacefairing for 35000 years can't stop bullets, they need to go back underground.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Dec 10, 2010)

Although an argument against that could be that their armor is designed for blaster fire, which is energy, rather than bullets.


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## Blue (Dec 10, 2010)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Although an argument against that could be that their armor is designed for blaster fire, which is energy, rather than bullets.


Well you kind of have to assume that first of all, a certain number of missions the armed forces of a galactic empire would undertake would be against less technologically developed peoples.

Second, the modern gun is a fucking fantastic weapon, far better than any hand-held blaster we saw in any of the movies. If bullets could easily pierce armor, people would be using guns instead of flashy pseudo-lasers with a stupidly slow muzzle speed that give away your position.


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## Vynjira (Dec 11, 2010)

When Stormtroopers got shot in the Toe they fell over.. and their armor didn't stop the Ewoks from fucking with their day.. granted this is Episode 2 and 3 but the US Army > Ewoks.


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## KazeYama (Dec 11, 2010)

I really hope you were on the side for the Clones and that your friend is the idiot but the fact that you made this thread makes me think otherwise. 

You do know that even if the Clones had no guns and were naked they would still be outnumbering America's military force like 10 to 1 right.


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## Vynjira (Dec 11, 2010)

KazeYama said:


> You do know that even if the Clones had no guns and were naked they would still be outnumbering America's military force like 10 to 1 right.


I'm sure its well over that but.. naked without guns they'd be a bunch of corpses regardless of their numbers. At some point their numbers work against them... crawling thru bodies isn't easy.


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## Nevermind (Dec 11, 2010)

Numbers weren't really specified in the OP. Still, the Clones' cavalry forces are gonna smash the U.S. Army.

However Kunoichi no Kiri made a good point. I was not impressed at all with the Clones' standard infantry weapons, that being their blasters. Modern firearms are much better weapons.


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 11, 2010)

Wow this is serious rape.....epic scales.

Clonetrooper armor handles slugs effectively, i cant see any modern firearm short of an M32 doing damage, you could probably KO them with Berreta shots to the head though. infantry wise theres no much the US army can do.

Blaster weaponry is extremely powerful, capable of blasting huge chunks out of stone walls and on lower settings shearing flesh from the bone. the actual speed of blaster bolts is a contreversy, the ICS (incredible cross sections) which is a canon sourcebook says that blaster bolts are lightspeed projectiles and what we see are just path tracers. 
Another explantion of blasters is that they fire photons(which are indeed lightspeed).

the DC series blasters the clones used fire plasma carried on beams of light as one coherent beam. so what we seem are no more then place holders for the sake of preventing friendly fire.



flatout tells you that blasters fire light, you can also see in the original trilogy that an A-wing passes harmlessly thru a turbolaser tracer.

AT-TEs are bad for the US army. their main guns can fire heavy plasma, or slugs(this includes missile), at damn near 2.5 Km/s or if its the railgun type 6 Km/s.

They were all but invulnerable to weapons fire, save for heavy blasters and concussion missiles, which use armor piecing tips to enter the target then detonate...they are thermonuclear in nature. mines also work but every explosive in starwars is superior to ours.

it really possible that even a tanks heaviest payload wont slow down the AT-TE, 120mm DU rounds arent much if the AT TE is made from SW titanium, their metallurgy is far superior, a TIE fighter is made of titanium yet it can sustain 4,100G maneuvers.

US tanks wont have time to handle the AT-TEs they will be getting raped by TX-130 saber tanks who zip around the battlefield at 320 km/h launching thermal detonators and and heavy laser weaponry.

this is pretty much a stomp, clones walk right over the USA.


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## Fang (Dec 11, 2010)

When I see modern real world hand guns and infantry class weapons replicating the damage created by small artillery pieces, then SW weapons technology might have something to worry about.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Dec 11, 2010)

i got into an argument with a friend about real world weapons vs. star wars stuff (I don't really know how it went to that) and he said he could somehow damage a star destroyer with a modern tank 

anyways clones rape this easy


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## masamune1 (Dec 11, 2010)

Kunoichi no Kiri said:


> Well you kind of have to assume that first of all, a certain number of missions the armed forces of a galactic empire would undertake would be against less technologically developed peoples.



Well, remember, technology in the Star Wars universe remains roughly the same for several millenia, and _millions_ of worlds were members of both the Republic and the Empire meeaning they all had to have encountered space-faring technology. The number of peoples that poorly advanced are very, very slim. I'm not sure bullets have ever been shown to have ever existed; if they did, it was tens of thousands of years ago. 

Though, the one time the Empire _did_ take on a less advanced race was versus the Ewoks. And they lost.


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## Fang (Dec 11, 2010)

Sand people aka Tusken Raiders use bullet/ballistic based weaponary among many others, they are fairly common place throughout the galaxy still to current times in SW and EU, their jargon in SW is "slug" throwers.

They aren't anything special.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Dec 11, 2010)

masamune1 said:


> Though, the one time the Empire _did_ take on a less advanced race was versus the Ewoks. And they lost.



Endor was a fuck-up but they didn't lose to the Ewoks alone and GL himself said so on the DVD commentaries 

the turning point was when Chewie took the AT-ST


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## Endless Mike (Dec 11, 2010)

Are we using the actual clone army that numbers in at least the quadrillions, or Karen Traviss's 3 million strong clone army?


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## Fang (Dec 11, 2010)

KT's stuff is non-canon straight up now anyways.

Thank you TCW.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 11, 2010)

I know, I was being facetious


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## hammer (Dec 11, 2010)

he said my friend and I thread should have ended there


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 11, 2010)

> Sand people aka Tusken Raiders use bullet/ballistic based weaponary among many others, they are fairly common place throughout the galaxy still to current times in SW and EU, their jargon in SW is "slug" throwers.
> 
> They aren't anything special.



cycler rifles fire slugs suspened in energy fields....so those arent even comparable to modern firearms. the only thing wrong with them is that without sights or scopes or targeting they have terrible range.


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## Fang (Dec 11, 2010)

Except that isn't a common weapon for Tusken Raiders nor the same thing as a slug-thrower, thus in short; cool story bro.


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## Skywalker (Dec 11, 2010)

Serious thread? lol

Clone Army rapes.


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 11, 2010)

what? someone doesnt know what they are talking about....................

Tusken cycler rifles are the only guns they have ever used in SW, and tusken raiders with guns are pretty damn common if you didnt know. They also are slugthrowers.



> cycler rifles fire slugs suspened in energy fields



in case you missed that, despite the energy field they in the slug thrower category.


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## Fang (Dec 11, 2010)

Cool story bro, too bad all the sourcebooks, and guide to technology and weapons as well as official literature say otherwise. And even if that wasn't true, which it is, the films directly show otherwise.

So nope.


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## strongarm85 (Dec 11, 2010)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Although an argument against that could be that their armor is designed for blaster fire, which is energy, rather than bullets.



As someone who knows something about trooper armor employed in Star Wars I'll give you the quick lowdown.

Standard Clone Trooper armor is a very low end Powered armor, which contains within in it basic life support capabilities as well as an internal heads up display ideal for viewing alternate lightspectrims, both (Infra-red and Ultraviolet). It can also be used to quickly relay mission specific data to troopers on the field to update them on objectives.

The material the typical suit is made out of is a very light but sturdy material called Playsteel. It is not very effective at stopping blasters. In Star Wars blasters have evolved in firepower output beyond the capabilities of conventional personal armor to stand up to blaster bolts. The few personal armor types able to withstand blaster bolts are both extremely expensive and/or exceedingly rare.

A blaster is a lot like a conventional gun accept the round fired from the gun is a bolt of super heated plasma.

Although the trooper armor is ineffective at stopping blasters, it allows for a much higher survival rate then no protection at all. It is also highly effective at stopping non-blaster weapons, the most commonly being explosive charges. In my opinion it would be effective at stopping bullets from up to and including assault rifles but would start to fall short when put up against high big rounds like the 50. Cal.


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 12, 2010)

the films dont show anything....you cant see the slugs, and the energy field was only ever visible on 1 game.

Where has it been stated that its rare for tusken raiders to have firearms?
Where are they not categorized as slug throwers?
im just so curious.

Official SW factfile issue 83, article Tusken Weaponry agrees with me.........

Apparently you are one of the few people who dont know that the tusken cyclers fire what has been called either a slug suspended in energy, or a solid energy slug...whatever it is called the weapon is very much a slugthrower.

If by uncommon you mean Many Raiders prefer the staff, thats simply because the weapon has a slow rate of fire and is impractical at close range, nonetheless whether they prefer it or not, we see the weapon everytime raiders are shown. its not uncommon hell we see 3 during the pod race in episode 1.

so i still have no clue what youre talking about, at worst we have conflicting canon sources, that the movie doesnt clear up. 
pretty sure anything baring lucas LTD and is a direct reference to the 6 movies is G-Canon.

So source books, encyclepedias, the factfiles, and the cross sections should all be equal to or directly under the movies...thier all G-canon or C canon. 

the only way for either of use to actually prove what it is and isnt would be if the movie explained the weapon...


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 12, 2010)

> Although the trooper armor is ineffective at stopping blasters, it allows for a much higher survival rate then no protection at all.



they have those niffty little energy sinks that let them take grazing blow from blasters.


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## Fang (Dec 12, 2010)

Still wrong.

And no, ICS stuff is not the same as garden variety source books. Stop beating the dead horse with goofy circular arguments.


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## hammer (Dec 12, 2010)

fang wheres yourt sig from


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 12, 2010)

Fang said:


> Still wrong.
> 
> And no, ICS stuff is not the same as garden variety source books. Stop beating the dead horse with goofy circular arguments.



you cant accept that we both can have valid sources and material can you? incredible cross scetions, fact files, encyclopedias, novelizations, and reference books tied in and written by or in conjunction with Lucas LTd, are all the same lvl canon....quit slinging around info that isnt new...

grow the hell up dude.

outta respect for a debate i looked at your link, and it didnt prove of disprove jack shit, we know what slug throwers are, the tusken cycler is a slugthrower. because the primary part of its projectile is a SOLID SLUG.



just a few exerts from the page that show youre just being a dick, and think that 50,000 posts makes you right; instead it has given you a smug attitude and you cant accept being either wrong or someone else being just as right.



> *The Tusken Cycler was the standard projectile weapon used by the Tusken Raiders of Tatooine for ranged combat.*





> *The cycler was an older design of rifle and fit into the Slugthrower class, firing solid shots enveloped in energy, not blaster bolts.
> *



also mister retarded, allow me to point out that if you were trying to prove the tusken cycler rifle IS NOT a slugthrower, use a source where its not listed as a slug thrower.



> Weapons
> 6-2Aug2 hunting rifle
> Adventurer (rifle)
> Adjudicator (slugthrower)
> ...



FAILURE..............

also learn how to call your argumentative fallacies, not a single one of my posts contain circular logic. and learn how to address actually points ive made.

i DID NOT say they were garden variety books, i said:



> so i still have no clue what youre talking about, at worst we have conflicting canon sources, that the movie doesnt clear up.
> pretty sure anything baring lucas LTD and is a direct reference to the 6 movies is G-Canon.
> 
> So source books, encyclepedias, the factfiles, and the cross sections should all be equal to or directly under the movies...thier all G-canon or C canon.



any source books made in direct collaboration with lucas LTD. would be the same level of canon G, anything in those books not in the movies would be C. ICS either C or G along with they other encyclopedia, sourcebook, etc made with Lucas arts.....


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## Fang (Dec 12, 2010)

Slug-throwers using gas propelled mechanics like normal ballistics and repeatedly stated in TCS > = goofy wookiepedia article I can not find citations for, and still using the same shit arguments that don't make sense.

Still wrong.

This is a slug-thrower operates:



			
				Guide to Weapons and Technology said:
			
		

> Ammunition is also varied, as slugs are made of metal, ceramic, and hardened plastics. Specialty rounds can release toxic or stun gases, or acid, or carry explosive heads. During the Galactic Civil War, several Rebel SpecForce units carried explosive-tipped rounds that were quite affective at blowing through stormtrooper armor.



Cool story bro.

Now I'm still waiting for an explanation that even if your claims are genuine, why nothing of the sort was shown when Tusken Raiders were firing on podracers in the film. 

Since they clearly don't operate like tracers, one can make it obvious you have zero idea of what your talking about.


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## Sasori (Dec 12, 2010)

hammer said:


> fang wheres yourt sig from


Crows Zero


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Dec 13, 2010)

Us drops some vials of dieases or some shit they have in some labs or something. Fight over.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 13, 2010)

Cthulhu-versailles said:


> Us drops some vials of dieases or some shit they have in some labs or something. Fight over.



You know clone armor is NBC sealed, right?


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## Masa (Dec 13, 2010)

Ground forces only, you say?  The Army brings this out of retirement:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GBjlUOROY[/YOUTUBE]


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## Endless Mike (Dec 13, 2010)

So then they load up an SPHA-T


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## Masa (Dec 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> So then they load up an SPHA-T



because a laser can hit things at long range in a city with thousands of large buildings where line of sight is pretty much impossible...


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## Endless Mike (Dec 13, 2010)

Accuracy doesn't matter much with gigaton+ yields


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## Masa (Dec 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Accuracy doesn't matter much with gigaton+ yields



So they either shoot the laser in the air hitting nothing or shoot the buildings in front of them causing them to destroy themselves with the gigaton+yields.


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## zenieth (Dec 13, 2010)

That's not how lasers work you know.


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## neodragzero (Dec 13, 2010)

Yeah, I have to agree. That's not how turbolasers work.


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## Fang (Dec 13, 2010)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Purpledrank (Dec 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> You know clone armor is NBC sealed, right?



We send George Lucus over and they kill him making us win or have him re-right the canon armor being made of paper now.
If that doesn't work Ewoks, lots of them.


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## Masa (Dec 13, 2010)

zenieth said:


> That's not how lasers work you know.



You're saying a laser with a gigaton+ output wont cause anything it hits including air molecules to undergo thermonuclear fusion resulting in a devastating explosion in the near vicinity of where it was fired?

Hell, even if we ignore fusion, destroyed buildings falling on top of you will ruin your day.


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## lambda (Dec 13, 2010)

Endless Mike said:


> Are we using the actual clone army that numbers in at least the quadrillions, or Karen Traviss's 3 million strong clone army?


Karen traviss?


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 13, 2010)

Purpledrank said:


> If that doesn't work Ewoks, lots of them.



I seem to recall Stormtroopers being taken out by hurled rocks from Ewoks.

Link removed
@0:15 taken out by a bow
@0:35 dropped rocks
@1:03 a thrown bolo
@2:00 more rocks taking out a squad

The bow isn't terribly clear (anyone got the DVD's handy?) but that would seem to indicate the armor is essentially worthless.

Assuming Stormtrooper armor >= Clone Trooper armor.

(Clone troopers still win though, but the Ewok battle is too fun to pass up)

(In before "Gravity's 10000x Earth's norm on Endor!  Han and Leia were just really strong and didn't show any signs of this!")


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## lambda (Dec 13, 2010)

I though it was common knowlege that despite appearances Ewoks can wrestle Rancors.


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## Fang (Dec 13, 2010)

lambda said:


> I though it was common knowlege that despite appearances Ewoks can wrestle Rancors.



You know in all seriousness they were throwing rocks and boulders their size from high distances like atop trees on stormtroopers, and even though the armor wasn't directly affected at all, it was the concussive force that was taking them out right?


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Dec 13, 2010)

So, I must ask. What is the strongest attack Clone armor has tanked with the soldier surviving in the movies?


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## Orochibuto (Dec 13, 2010)

Arent the clones numbered in trillions? They should be able to take it even without their weapons.


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Dec 13, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> Arent the clones numbered in trillions? They should be able to take it even without their weapons.



I Episode 2, I recall the number being 1,000,000.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 13, 2010)

Colonel Awesome said:


> I Episode 2, I recall the number being 1,000,000.



Yes in the movies but I remember reading in wookiepedia that the total numbers of the Galactic Empire Army was trillions. I think it would be more fair to have the entire US army with the ariforce and all.

I know it might appear to be a rape but if you place all the imperial army in mainland US I think it might be an interesting battle, considering the troopers are numbered in trillions it would be a rough fight.
*
Numbering in the tens of trillions*


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Dec 13, 2010)

Orochibuto said:


> Yes in the movies but I remember reading in wookiepedia that the total numbers of the Galactic Empire Army was trillions. I think it would be more fair to have the entire US army with the ariforce and all.
> 
> I know it might appear to be a rape but if you place all the imperial army in mainland US I think it might be an interesting battle, considering the troopers are numbered in trillions it would be a rough fight.
> *
> Numbering in the tens of trillions*



Did you read my opening post? Both Scenarios, it is the Clone army. Not the Galactic Empire. I also specified that it is Episode 2 Clone Army, and then in Scenario 2, it's the Clone army from Episode 3.


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## Orochibuto (Dec 13, 2010)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Did you read my opening post? Both Scenarios, it is the Clone army. Not the Galactic Empire. I also specified that it is Episode 2 Clone Army, and then in Scenario 2, it's the Clone army from Episode 3.



Oh I see, so it is limited to 1,000,000. Weill they should still take it considering their numbers are still greater than US army (well active effectives) and have blasters.


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 13, 2010)

Colonel Awesome said:


> So, I must ask. What is the strongest attack Clone armor has tanked with the soldier surviving in the movies?



storm trooper armor and Clone trooper phase II armor, should have roughly the same attributes.

However the movies plotshielding and rating leave us in the dark about how much the armor can actually take.

Blasters bolts can cause large explosions-mos eisley space port scene
blow chunks of of duracrete(SW concrete)- cloud city shoot out
and sear flesh from bones(aka the burning)- Han solo performed this

yet when they hit a clone troop it just absorbs into them, now id love to say that it was the energy sinks in their armor but the same shit happens to everyone........with what blasters have shown they should blow a fist sized hole thru you torso of blowout your ribcage....but they dont. because SW isnt rated R


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## Fang (Dec 13, 2010)

Except for when we saw the charred remains of Ben and Beru from the blasters of the stormtroopers and Han's blaster with Greedo's body.


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## DarkBladex96 (Dec 13, 2010)

Fang said:


> Except for when we saw the charred remains of Ben and Beru from the blasters of the stormtroopers and Han's blaster with Greedo's body.



whoa, whoa, whoa, hans blaster nearly incenerated greedo? that i do not remember.


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## strongarm85 (Dec 14, 2010)

Greedo was smoldering. You hear a sizziling sound in the background after Greedo gets shot. That sound is the sound of Greedo's body Frying itself from the inside out.

There are instances of characters surviving shots that would have been instantly fatal with Stromtrooper armor on.

For instance in the First X-wing Novel, which was Corran Horn's first appearance. The empire discovered the location of Rouge Squadron's base and sent in a batallion of Stormtroopers from the nearby garrison.

Corran discovered the attack early on, killed a trooper and was walking around with in the Trooper's armor using it's own internal systems to track enemy movements and set up ambushes. Eventually he's found out and takes a blaster rifle shot to the chest. The shot blew threw the armor, which absorbed a portion of the shot, and blew out a big hole in his lung. He spent two weeks afterwards in a Bacta tank to recover from his injuries. Sure, he still sustained a major life threatening injury, but the only thing that saved him was the armor he was wearing.

At the time it was still early in his character development. It was only a few years laterc with the popularity of the character on the rise that they chose to make him into a Jedi later on.


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## ZenGamr (Dec 14, 2010)

Unless the army uses some sort of nuke, I don't see them being able to stop the clone army.


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## decoy octopus (Dec 14, 2010)

clone army wins


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