# Kid Buu vs World War Hulk



## kluang (Oct 24, 2016)

S1: Speed equalize
S2: No restriction

Bloodlust


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## Nep Heart (Oct 24, 2016)

Quite sure Worldbreaker/World War Hulk breaks Buu regardless of which form seeing as he could contend with high level Heralds to a pretty decent extent.


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## Blαck (Oct 24, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Quite sure Worldbreaker/World War Hulk breaks Buu regardless of which form seeing as he could contend with high level Heralds to a pretty decent extent.


Pretty much, buu's only out here is if he went for destroying the planet they're on and leaving hulk to drift about.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Or chocolate beam. 

Could see Kid Buu taking it with teleportation, planet busting + space survival , or absorption + magical transmutation. 

I do remember Vegeta saying that a Buu can only injure another Buu, but it sounds like a massive NLF. Then again, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan beat up Super Buu, who after the fact blew himself up, yet was completely fine after. Only when Kid Buu beat up on Majin Buu did he not regenerate from the wounds. 

World War Hulk has the stats (probably not speed wise), but Buu has him abilities and survivability.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Or chocolate beam.



Wouldn't work seeing as even normal Hulk has resisted transmutation, Worldbreaker should at least retain resistance on par with that. Not sure about whether he can resist absorption, although Hulk's body is notorious for its adaptibility.

Edit: Also, Worldbreaker Hulk should have MFTL+ reaction and attack speed for contending with high level Heralds.

Reactions: Like 1


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Wouldn't work seeing as even normal Hulk has resisted transmutation, Worldbreaker should at least retain resistance on par with that. Not sure about whether he can resist absorption, although Hulk's body is notorious for its adaptibility.



Buu's is magical transmutation, so if Hulk hasn't resisted instantaneous transformation of magical nature (The kind Buu has preformed), then I'm not seeing him shake off a chocolate beam.



> Edit: Also, Worldbreaker Hulk should have MFTL+ reaction and attack speed for contending with high level Heralds.



Ahh Hulk. Spiderman and Wolverine can dance around you, and everyone in Marvel can keep up with you, but you still manage to fight Heralds. Love you comics.

So Hulk has him beat stats wise (if we're going by Buu being unquantifiably +++small star level, sub-relativistic) then he most likely wins barring any mishaps.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 24, 2016)

@XImpossibruX 

 No, you're confusing that with normal Hulk. Worldbreaker Hulk is Hulk who has reached the full potential of his rage's power to the point he has fully mastered it. He's much stronger and smarter than his normal self.

 Also, "magical" on its own really means nothing since it is a broad label. If you're suggesting reality warping, even normal Hulk has resisted that.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> @XImpossibruX
> 
> No, you're confusing that with normal Hulk. Worldbreaker Hulk is Hulk who has reached the full potential of his rage's power to the point he has fully mastered it. He's much stronger and smarter than his normal self.



Of course, but i'm making the distinction between World War Hulk and World Breaker Hulk, because OP puts it as World War Hulk.

Isn't the World Breaker Hulk the one where he is completely raged out, caused the seaboard to collapse by his steps, blew up a planet with Red She Hulk after colliding.

But

World War Hulk is the one after coming back from Planet Hulk to seek revenge on the heroes, and is much more sensible? He only after turned into World Breaker after hearing that one of his Planet Hulk buddies sabotaged the ship that destroyed it?





> Also, "magical" on its own really means nothing since it is a broad label. If you're suggesting reality warping, even normal Hulk has resisted that.



Well there's transmutation, magic, and reality warping.

Each their own category, so Kid Buu's really falls under magic if we're being specific. In which I guess feats of Hulk resisting instant magic or whatever would be enough to justify him resisting the chocolate beam.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 24, 2016)

World War and Worldbreaker are the same.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> World War and Worldbreaker are the same.



Yea, the same character, but different levels of power.

World War Hulk is pissed, but World Breaker is completely buttblasted, to the point where he had to tell the heroes to subdue him unless he would have destroyed everything post fight with Sentry.

And tbh, scaling Hulk to trillion - quintillion times MFTL+ fighters like Thor and Surfer leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So i'll take my leave.


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Or chocolate beam.
> 
> Could see Kid Buu taking it with teleportation, planet busting + space survival , or absorption + magical transmutation.
> 
> ...



>chocolate beam
>magical transmutation

World War Hulk didn't die from Elixir's death touch, man. If an Omega level Mutant can't induce death in him, Buu isn't transmutating him.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> And tbh, scaling Hulk to trillion - quintillion times MFTL+ fighters like Thor and Surfer leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So i'll take my leave.



 I doubt normal Hulk has those reactions since he is far inferior, but Hulk's strongest forms would likely scale reactions to some extent of high level Herald. Also, pretty sure even the quadrillions c feat for Thor was marked an outlier, don't even know where quintillions came from.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Montanz (Oct 24, 2016)

What are Hulk's best DC and speed feats of his own?


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## kluang (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Or chocolate beam.
> 
> Could see Kid Buu taking it with teleportation, planet busting + space survival , or absorption + magical transmutation.
> 
> ...







Buu have unlimited stamina, just like hulk?


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Fang said:


> >chocolate beam
> >magical transmutation
> 
> World War Hulk didn't die from Elixir's death touch, man. If an Omega level Mutant can't induce death in him, Buu isn't transmutating him.



Well I mean it is magic. But if Hulk's got those resistance feats, then he resists it, simple as that. 



Ampchu said:


> I doubt normal Hulk has those reactions since he is far inferior, but Hulk's strongest forms would likely scale reactions to some extent of high level Herald. Also, pretty sure even the quadrillions c feat for Thor was marked an outlier, don't even know where quintillions came from.



Probably. Not saying I don't accept it, because it seems valid, just my personal gripe.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

kluang said:


> Buu have unlimited stamina, just like hulk?



Viz translated scans. (Pretty sure these are available online regardless)



Anyway it's 3am so i'm out.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Crackle (Oct 24, 2016)

Worldbreaker should be solar system level scaling from those amped times he was able to overpower Thor while getting angry enough and Worldbreaker is Hulk at his absolute peak (unless you believe all the hype of him literally having limitless strength)


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## Blαck (Oct 24, 2016)

Crackle said:


> Worldbreaker should be solar system level scaling from those amped times he was able to overpower Thor while getting angry enough and Worldbreaker is Hulk at his absolute peak (unless you believe all the hype of him literally having limitless strength)


There's potential for him to get solar system scaling, trying to look for some old Drax feats that he could use.


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## Toaa (Oct 24, 2016)

Buu will most likely absord him


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 24, 2016)

Buu wins due to regen + candy beam hax.


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## The Runner (Oct 24, 2016)

Hulk resisted stronger Hax before.

Not to mention that Goku could have destroyed the fucker if he went all out from the beginning. So WB Hulk should do that faster.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Oct 24, 2016)

Buu's main shot is either absorption or nuking the planet letting hulk drift in space.


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

What if Buu forced himself down Hulk's throat and attacked him from the inside? He almost did that to Vegito as Super Buu but he was able to counter it by isolating him into certain areas with his ki. Hulk can't use that method though.


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## shade0180 (Oct 24, 2016)

So Goku is a Buu considering he killed him?


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## youresafenow (Oct 24, 2016)

Ummm considering Kid Buu kinda fucks around I'd say he's just going to piss off the Hulk really well. So in the end Hulk smash.


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## Dudebro (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> What if Buu forced himself down Hulk's throat and attacked him from the inside? He almost did that to Vegito as Super Buu but he was able to counter it by isolating him into certain areas with his ki. Hulk can't use that method though.


Hulk's insides are comparably tough to his outsides. Even if Buu Managed to do this it wouldn't really accomplish anything other give him the most unusual hiding spot.



shade0180 said:


> So Goku is a Buu considering he killed him?



Well...The spirit bomb did really...


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Dudebro said:


> Hulk's insides are comparably tough to his outsides. Even if Buu Managed to do this it wouldn't really accomplish anything other give him the most unusual hiding spot.



Hulk may end up weakening himself trying to get to buu as he'd be tearing himself up. Buu could try to transmute him from the inside out (which i'm not sure has been attempted before). Or it could make it easier for Buu to encompass hulk and absorb him. Absorption seems to have an effect where it knocks out characters even if those characters are stronger than Buu (Super Buu was able to incapacitate SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan this way). And even if Hulk somehow wakes up inside of Buu in the absorption pod he'd be weakened and Buu can create clones of himself inside of his body (when Vegeta and Goku tried to free Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo) that would be able to knock Hulk out again as they'd have Hulk's own strength to use against him.


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

Hulk is resistant to transmutation and magic, that stuff won't work.


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Fang said:


> Hulk is resistant to transmutation and magic, that stuff won't work.



There's a difference between being resistant to something and having immunity to it. Can you present an instance where someone's tried to transmute him from the inside out?


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

I presented an instance where a fucking Omega class Mutant who can induce death in anything and anyone couldn't do shit to World War Hulk with his power.


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Fang said:


> I presented an instance where a fucking Omega class Mutant who can induce death in anything and anyone couldn't do shit to World War Hulk with his power.



Wouldn't a different type of resistance be required for that feat? If i'm wrong maybe you could give more specifics and perhaps a scan of this feat. I just don't get how this death hax is the same as transmutation hax, it sounds like an entirely different hax.


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Wouldn't a different type of resistance be required for that feat? If i'm wrong maybe you could give more specifics and perhaps a scan of this feat. I just don't get how this death hax is the same as transmutation hax, it sounds like an entirely different hax.



No, its simply hax resistance. Just like weaker versions of Hulk have been nigh immune to telepathy, soul fuckery, magic, and so on. Elixir can induce death, Elixir is an Omega class mutant in the same vein as Iceman, Nate Grey, Jeanne Grey, and so on. His power is the manipulation of biological functions and living matter, Ice Bitch's assistants basically even bolstered him by giving him all of Hank's medical knowledge so he can use his powers more effectively. World War Hulk didn't go down to that shit.

So I'm really not seeing Kid Buu transmutating him.


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Fang said:


> No, its simply hax resistance.



?

There are so many different types of hax and different types of resistance needed to resist specific hax you can't just say that resisting one type of hax gives you resistance to hax in general.  



Fang said:


> Just like weaker versions of Hulk have been nigh immune to telepathy, soul fuckery, magic, and so on. Elixir can induce death, Elixir is an Omega class mutant in the same vein as Iceman, Nate Grey, Jeanne Grey, and so on. His power is the manipulation of biological functions and living matter, Ice Bitch's assistants basically even bolstered him by giving him all of Hank's medical knowledge so he can use his powers more effectively. World War Hulk didn't go down to that shit.
> 
> So I'm really not seeing Kid Buu transmutating him.



necrosis inducement isn't the same as matter manipulation.


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## Toaa (Oct 24, 2016)

He can still absorb him and buu will most likely just bust the planet from the get go 

Even kid buu isnt a complete retard sadistic yes but not a retard not a full retard at least 


shade0180 said:


> So Goku is a Buu considering he killed him?



Goku used spirit bomb and buu is an amalgatiln of evil energy if i remember right goku just vanguished him


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> ?
> 
> There are so many different types of hax and different types of resistance needed to resist specific hax you can't just say that resisting one type of hax gives you resistance to hax in general.



That's not what I said.



> necrosis inducement isn't the same as matter manipulation.



That's not Elixir's power. Point is, none of Buu's magical abilities are going to affect World War Hulk. That's the only contention I made here. He's not able to absorb him or turn him into candy.


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## Toaa (Oct 24, 2016)

Fang said:


> That's not Elixir's power. Point is, none of Buu's magical abilities are going to affect World War Hulk. That's the only contention I made here. He's not able to absorb him or turn him into candy.




Because i agree that it prolly wont work however absorption will most likely work


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Fang said:


> That's not what I said.



When you say "No, it's simply hax resistance" that's what it sounds like, but alright. 



Fang said:


> That's not Elixir's power. Point is, none of Buu's magical abilities are going to affect World War Hulk. That's the only contention I made here. He's not able to absorb him or turn him into candy.



I don't see how biological manipulation is an exact equivalent to matter manipulation but i'll set that aside for now. Why wouldn't absorption work in the scenario I proposed where Buu first forces himself down Hulk's throat first?


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## kluang (Oct 24, 2016)

youresafenow said:


> Ummm considering Kid Buu kinda fucks around I'd say he's just going to piss off the Hulk really well. So in the end Hulk smash.



Kid Buu thinks like a low-functioning sociopath with some reasoning abilities and intelligence, as he quickly realized that Goku refused to hit him with the SB as long as Vegeta was in the way


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## Qinglong (Oct 24, 2016)

I remember they tried to operate on the hulk at one pioint and he was basically regenerating faster than they could cut his arteries

other than that IIRC The High Evolutionary couldn't affect him properly nor could someone who transmutes things into.... metal I think?


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## YoungChief (Oct 24, 2016)

Wouldn't Kid Buu immediately nuke the planet? After that, whats Hulk really gonna do


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## Crackle (Oct 24, 2016)

YoungChief said:


> Wouldn't Kid Buu immediately nuke the planet? After that, whats Hulk really gonna do


What's stopping Hulk from smashing him before he does that?


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## SoulTaker (Oct 24, 2016)

> In an attempt to counter a attack from Night-Crawler, the Savage Hulk slams his hands together with so much force that not only does he defuse the attack, but he manages to destroy all the planets/landmasses within the entire dimension*(Incredible Hulk #126)*!


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## Claudio Swiss (Oct 24, 2016)

Where is WWH hulk is sitting at in DC?


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## gajoobwalrus (Oct 24, 2016)

It's a stalemate imo. Kid Buu can't do shit to WBH durability, & I don't think WBH has anything that can actually put Kid Buu down.
Buu's seriously outgunned in terms of power, but he's got a massive versatility advantage.


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Crackle said:


> What's stopping Hulk from smashing him before he does that?



In space Hulk has not much of a way to move around. He'd just be stuck floating. Wheras Buu can use ki flight, teleport with insantaneous movement, or propel himself with a beam attack.


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> When you say "No, it's simply hax resistance" that's what it sounds like, but alright.



Yeah, its resistance he's shown consistently against people who can destroy souls, mind-fuck things, evolve things, manipulate life and death, transmutate others, and so on. He's shown resistance against stuff that goes beyond Buu's magical abilities.



> I don't see how biological manipulation is an exact equivalent to matter manipulation but i'll set that aside for now. Why wouldn't absorption work in the scenario I proposed where Buu first forces himself down Hulk's throat first?



For one, Elixir's power is being able to induce death and also bring others back to life. That power did not work against Hulk fully iirc it just made him sick or knocked out temporarily, the same Hulk whose weaker incarnation with Savage Hulk was immune to the High Evolutionary's power of mutation and evolution or at least highly resistant to it.

See Qing's post:



Qinglong said:


> I remember they tried to operate on the hulk at one pioint and he was basically regenerating faster than they could cut his arteries
> 
> other than that IIRC The High Evolutionary couldn't affect him properly nor could someone who transmutes things into.... metal I think?



Anyway as for strength, World War Hulk fought Sentry to a draw. Savage/Classic Hulk is also more or less equivalent to Thor in strength and has fought and others on a similar pay grade. IIRC he's even fucked up a Watcher at one point. And Hulk's ability to regenerate is insane. He's also eaten people before.


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## Toaa (Oct 24, 2016)

SoulTaker said:


>



That whole thing is considered as a huge outlier i think


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## Samurai Navarre (Oct 24, 2016)

Does Hulk have any way of actually killing Buu though? Both have great healing factors but Buu's is so good that it's insane. He can still survive even if he's reduced to vapor.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 24, 2016)

Manga or anime buu?
they are vastly different in stats


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## youresafenow (Oct 24, 2016)

Samurai Navarre said:


> Does Hulk have any way of actually killing Buu though? Both have great healing factors but Buu's is so good that it's insane. He can still survive even if he's reduced to vapor.



Thunder applause?


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## Nep Heart (Oct 24, 2016)

Pretty sure Buu doesn't have infinite regens seeing as it can falter if he is too low on stamina, so, it'll be a battle of attrition. Moreso if Buu keeps his distance at all times and blows up the planet from the get-go since while WWH has the reaction advantage, Buu should still have faster movements.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Pretty sure Buu doesn't have infinite regens seeing as it can falter if he is too low on stamina, so, it'll be a battle of attrition. Moreso if Buu keeps his distance at all times and blows up the planet from the get-go since while WWH has the reaction advantage, Buu should still have faster movements.



Buu may not have infinite regen but he can recover his stamina so quickly that it would be exceedingly hard to get him to the point where he stops regenerating entirely and to keep him that way long enough to kill him. Kid Buu especially showcased quick recovery. When going on a rampage his chosen method was to blow up a planet and himself with it with his strongest attack and then move on the next planet doing it over and over. You'd think that would tire him out very quickly but it doesn't.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Buu's stamina is far from infinite. 

Although, none of the Z-fighters, no matter how much stronger than Buu at the time, were able to injure Buu. From Majin Vegeta beating on Fat Buu, to SSJ3 Gotenks beating on Super Buu, to SSj3 Goku fighting Kid Buu. 

Make of that what you will.


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Buu's stamina is far from infinite.
> 
> Although, none of the Z-fighters, no matter how much stronger than Buu at the time, were able to injure Buu. From Majin Vegeta beating on Fat Buu, to SSJ3 Gotenks beating on Super Buu, to SSj3 Goku fighting Kid Buu.
> 
> Make of that what you will.



Ultimate Gohan was pummeling the shit out of Super Buu and it was implied that while he could regenerate just fine, it was taking a toll on him while Gohan was going easy breezy mode.


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> *Buu's stamina is far from infinite.*
> 
> Although, none of the Z-fighters, no matter how much stronger than Buu at the time, were able to injure Buu. From Majin Vegeta beating on Fat Buu, to SSJ3 Gotenks beating on Super Buu, to SSj3 Goku fighting Kid Buu.
> 
> Make of that what you will.



If that was in response to my comment, I wasn't saying that it was. Just that it recovers very quickly. For an analogy it isn't like a bottomless glass of water but a glass of water that's getting constantly refilled.


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## Qinglong (Oct 24, 2016)

Pretty sure Goku would have killed Buu if he went hard from the beginning

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Gordo solos (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> Buu's stamina is far from infinite.
> 
> Although, none of the Z-fighters, no matter how much stronger than Buu at the time, were able to injure Buu. From Majin Vegeta beating on Fat Buu, to SSJ3 Gotenks beating on Super Buu, to SSj3 Goku fighting Kid Buu.
> 
> Make of that what you will.


Super Vegetto and Ultimate Gohan have something to say against that


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 24, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Pretty sure Goku would have killed Buu if he went hard from the beginning


I believe this is so. It's running around in there somewhere, if he went all out he'd have won.
Same for the time with fat buu who is actually stronger than kid buu.


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## XImpossibruX (Oct 24, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> Super Vegetto and Ultimate Gohan have something to say against that



They didn't injure Buu either. 

Hell, Beerus beat down Buu and Buu didn't require a Sensu bean after.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Toaa (Oct 24, 2016)

Hulk has no way to damage buu effectively before he regens and keep it up till it kills him


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## xenos5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I believe this is so. It's running around in there somewhere, if he went all out he'd have won.



We never really got to see Goku's theory in action. He probably meant with a full power kamehameha rather than a punch though. I'm not certain but i'd say a kamehameha/energy attack works more on a more molecular level than a thunder clap would.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Same for the time with *fat buu who is actually stronger than kid buu.*



That's debatable (I personally lean towards fat buu being weaker due to the influence of the grand supreme kai holding him back).


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 24, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> That's debatable (I personally lean towards fat buu being weaker due to the influence of the grand supreme kai holding him back).


Fat buu is harder to kill is what I'm saying.
Kid buu beat out good buu however, who is much weaker than any other version.


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> They didn't injure Buu either.
> 
> Hell, Beerus beat down Buu and Buu didn't require a Sensu bean after.



They did, hence why he was forced to regenerate so many times.


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## kluang (Oct 24, 2016)

Qinglong said:


> Pretty sure Goku would have killed Buu if he went hard from the beginning



Wouldn't going hard from the beginning won't make much different? SS3 Goku went hard from the beginning against Kid Buu, he opens with a Kamehameha. He never starts with a Kamehameha before.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 24, 2016)

kluang said:


> Wouldn't going hard from the beginning won't make much different? SS3 Goku went hard from the beginning against Kid Buu, he opens with a Kamehameha. He never starts with a Kamehameha before.


he didnt go all out, he said he wanted to give Vegeta a chance


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## Fang (Oct 24, 2016)

Yes, and then he does try to go all out after Vegeta gets the shit kicked out of him by Kid Buu and struggles because the Super Saiyan 3 form isn't suited properly back at that point in DB and Goku was showing huge stamina problems maintaining it.


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## kluang (Oct 24, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> he didnt go all out, he said he wanted to give Vegeta a chance



He lied about giving Vegeta a chance, Vegeta called him on that,


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## Gordo solos (Oct 24, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> They didn't injure Buu either.
> 
> Hell, Beerus beat down Buu and Buu didn't require a Sensu bean after.


Vegetto could have killed Buu at any point in the fight

He just dragged it out to save Gohan and the others. Even then, Buu was running out of options in the fight


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## Worldbreaker (Oct 25, 2016)

I personally think it can go either way 50/50


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## The Runner (Oct 25, 2016)

Really, it depends on how much stronger Hulk is to Buu.
If Regen is all Buu has as an Advantage, then Hulk takes this. It is pretty fucking clear that Hulk is at his strongest here, which makes it ok to scale the fucker to other Heralds and the like.

Seriously, Hulk takes this.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Oct 25, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> Really, it depends on how much stronger Hulk is to Buu.
> If Regen is all Buu has as an Advantage, then Hulk takes this. It is pretty fucking clear that Hulk is at his strongest here, which makes it ok to scale the fucker to other Heralds and the like.
> 
> Seriously, Hulk takes this.


But it isn't WB hulk which is him at his peak only WWH.


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## The Runner (Oct 25, 2016)

Claudio Swiss said:


> But it isn't WB hulk which is him at his peak only WWH.


Look at the Title.

WWH


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2016)

Punches can atomize if they're far enough above someone's durability.
Matches are also in the RoSaT by default, so buu doesn't have a planet to blow up.
Hulk should be able to take this.


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## xenos5 (Oct 25, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Punches can atomize if they're far enough above someone's durability.
> Matches are also in the RoSaT by default, so buu doesn't have a planet to blow up.
> Hulk should be able to take this.



Rosat's ceiling is so high up you can't see it from the ground. So Buu could potentially go so high up through flight or instantaneous movement it'd be extremely hard for Hulk to reach him. Even if Hulk would be able to make it to that height through leaping he wouldn't be able to have sustained air combat as he'd just fall towards the ground again.


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## Juub (Oct 25, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> he didnt go all out, he said he wanted to give Vegeta a chance


He lied. He would have never given Vegeta a chance. You know, because Vegeta would have been wrecked in seconds.

He went HAM from the get go. Said so himself. He just wasn't strong enough to damage Buu.



Fang said:


> They did, hence why he was forced to regenerate so many times.


This. Vegeto and Gohan definitely impeded his recovery. If Buu is hit hard enough, his regen won't be as effective.

Don't know how strong WW Hulk is but if he's stronger than Buu by a decent margin, hitting him for long enough should eventually wear Buu out.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Rosat's ceiling is so high up you can't see it from the ground. So Buu could potentially go so high up through flight or instantaneous movement it'd be extremely hard for Hulk to reach him. Even if Hulk would be able to make it to that height through leaping he wouldn't be able to have sustained air combat as he'd just fall towards the ground again.


Not that he couldn't, but would he?
Characters are bloodlusted by default, but they're still in-character. Buu's not the type to run away, at least initially.


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## xenos5 (Oct 25, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Not that he couldn't, but would he?
> Characters are bloodlusted by default, but they're still in-character. Buu's not the type to run away, at least initially.



Kid Buu's first instinct is to blow shit up (he pretty much ignored Goku and Vegeta in their first encounter just to blow up Earth) so he may start out by searching around and trying to find a way out of the rosat so he can blow up the planet. When he can't find an exit he'd probably get angry and just start spamming ki attacks all over the place. When he sees some of them deflected in the general vicinity where Hulk is (or they just dissipate instead of blowing up) it may alert him that his opponent is powerful so he might become more cautious. Yeah I know cautious and kid buu don't usually fit together. But there is that one instance where Kid Buu tried to avoid Goku throwing the spirit bomb at him by pinning Vegeta on the ground because he realized how dangerous the spirit bomb would be to him (even though he was initially able to push it back).


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 25, 2016)

Fang said:


> Yeah, its resistance he's shown consistently against people who can *destroy souls, mind-fuck things, evolve things, manipulate life and death*, transmutate others, and so on. He's shown resistance against stuff that goes beyond Buu's magical abilities.


None of the bolded is relevant when talking about Hulk resisting Buu's magic. Especially not the life and death manipulation, since that is a mutant power and has _nothing_ to do with magic hax. Unless he has resisted being *magically* transformed - then he has no resistance feats against Buu, and gets turned into chocolate.


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## Fang (Oct 25, 2016)

Sloth said:


> None of the bolded is relevant when talking about Hulk resisting Buu's magic. Especially not the life and death manipulation, since that is a mutant power and has _nothing_ to do with magic hax. Unless he has resisted being *magically* transformed - then he has no resistance feats against Buu, and gets turned into chocolate.



The bolded are plenty relevant. Transmutation as a whole is a blanket area. He's resisted those things and the power level an Omega class mutant operates on when dealing with elements, supernatural forces, and concepts trump anything Buu has done with his magical abilities. Vegeto was able to retain his power and use his Ki despite being turned into a gumball by Super Buu (Gohan), and when he let Super Buu absorb him, he was able to maintain his form as long as he kept up a Ki barrier in Buu's body.

Hulk does have feats of resisting people like the High Evolutionary who literally shits on anything Buu can do when it comes to transforming and mutating people with his mutant powers, they'd still apply because its a type of power that works on altering a person's state from one to another. They are utterly relevant. Its like Doctor Doom who wouldn't go down against Buu magic because the Marquis of Death who turned his heart to stone, transformed his blood into acid, and had his second BFR Doom's body back into prehistoric times and Doom came back despite all that.

So yes, the Hulk has a long history of resisting magic and other broken abilities are above Buu's pay grade. And World War Hulk is one of the strongest versions of Hulk. Its not happening.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fang (Oct 25, 2016)

Actually since WWH is Hulk's strongest regular incarnation (as stated repeatedly by Dr. Strange, Iron Man, and others) just browsing through his respect thread he apparently should get scaling from weaker versions:

- tanking Ghost Rider's hellfire (which attacks the soul directly)
- resisting mind control from a guy who could control billions of people telepathically and could mentally duel Dr. Strange to a stalemate
- Vision's phasing powers don't work against him
- Some guy who can shrink entire cities via some weird molecular chain reaction technology couldn't work against him
- Glazier, a women who can turn people into glass via transmutation attempts it on regular human Banner, who then stops it and becomes immune to it once he transforms into the Hulk during the process
- Like I mentioned before and so did Qing, High Evolutionary who specializes in evolving and mutating or even devolving people couldn't affect the Savage Hulk

I'm sure there's plenty more but none of Buu's magic is going to do shit.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Nep Heart (Oct 25, 2016)

I don't subscribe to the idea of "it's magic, therefore, different" for blanket hax because, as I have said earlier, magic is a power source that branches into multiple powers. You either resist a category of hax or you don't. Buu's transmutation being magic doesn't suddenly make it no longer transmutation.

 Unrelated, but I love how Descendant of Vegabonds negs any post that objectively says a Dragon Ball character loses in a match-up, then again, he got miffed by people denying solar system level Super Perfect Cell before. :^)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Oct 25, 2016)

Fang said:


> Vegeto was able to retain his power and use his Ki despite being turned into a gumball by Super Buu (Gohan), and when he let Super Buu absorb him, he was able to maintain his form as long as he kept up a Ki barrier in Buu's body.


That's just because Vegeto is uber strong. If Hulk isn't as strong he isn't resisting. Everything gets trumped by superior power in Dragon Ball. Telekinesis, transmutation, wish granting etc.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2016)

Juub said:


> That's just because Vegeto is uber strong. If Hulk isn't as strong he isn't resisting. Everything gets trumped by superior power in Dragon Ball. Telekinesis, transmutation, wish granting etc.


not really how it works.
Hax resistance isn't directly linked to power - and even in dragon ball that's true.
Vegetto may have still been able to move as chocolate, but he was affected by it, same with Ginyu and the Body change.
The point is that when we're dealing with something that ignores traditional durability, we go by it's best showings - and given people with superior transmutation/absorption showings haven't managed to affect Hulk, we assume Hulk's resistance is good enough.
Not that Vegetto has showings above WWH last I checked, but just saiyan.

As for the "specifically magic resist" thing, equalization takes care of that in the OBD, is all that needs to be said.


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## Juub (Oct 25, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> not really how it works.
> Hax resistance isn't directly linked to power - and even in dragon ball that's true.
> Vegetto may have still been able to move as chocolate, but he was affected by it, same with Ginyu and the Body change.
> The point is that when we're dealing with something that ignores traditional durability, we go by it's best showings - and given people with superior transmutation/absorption showings haven't managed to affect Hulk, we assume Hulk's resistance is good enough.
> ...


In Dragon Ball it isn't the case. Vegeto's power remained the same when he was turned into a candy. He resisted it simply because he was far stronger than Majin Buu. Nobody else did simply because they weren't strong enough. Just like Shenron who has the power to bring back planets couldn't just kill off the Saiyans because they were more powerful than his creator.

If Hulk is far stronger than Buu, sure he resists the hax. If not, he gets turned into a candy and eaten like everyone else.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 25, 2016)

> In Dragon Ball it isn't the case. Vegeto's power remained the same when he was turned into a candy. He resisted it simply because he was far stronger than Majin Buu. Nobody else did simply because they weren't strong enough. Just like Shenron who has the power to bring back planets couldn't just kill off the Saiyans because they were more powerful than his creator.
> 
> If Hulk is far stronger than Buu, sure he resists the hax. If not, he gets turned into a candy and eaten like everyone else.


Had to do with Vegetto's ability to somehow control himself. That said, it still affected him.
"Being strong" doesn't mean anything for how strong your hax resistance is, and shenron's inability to affect those character is a personal limitation of shenron more than evidence of their resistance to hax, which is shown by the amount of hax that has consistently worked on Dragon ball characters such as Body change. 
Buu's Hax has worked on characters with no feats of resisting transmutation, in the singular sense. Hulk being strong has nothing to do with him resisting the hax, unless we have direct statements saying as much in canon.


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## Juub (Oct 25, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> Had to do with Vegetto's ability to somehow control himself. That said, it still affected him.
> "Being strong" doesn't mean anything for how strong your hax resistance is, and shenron's inability to affect those character is a personal limitation of shenron more than evidence of their resistance to hax, which is shown by the amount of hax that has consistently worked on Dragon ball characters such as Body change.
> Buu's Hax has worked on characters with no feats of resisting transmutation, in the singular sense. Hulk being strong has nothing to do with him resisting the hax, unless we have direct statements saying as much in canon.


Vegeto has no ability to control himself that is special. He even got caught off guard. It did transform him but he didn't lose an ounce of power so you may as well say it didn't work:

Shenron being unable to kill off the Saiyans is exactly because they were too powerful. Said so himself. You need to read Dragon Ball again. Power trumps everything.

General Blue could paralyze anyone with his gaze including Goku. Tao Pai Pai showed up and it didn't work on him.

The only hax that bypassed power was Guldo's time stop. Anything else gets wrecked by brute force in Dragon Ball.


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## Fang (Oct 25, 2016)

Gumball Vegeto was still able to use Ki as well as his speed and strength given how he was using flight the entire time in that form. Nappa broke the midget's TK hold on him by flexing his Ki, Vegeta powering up was able to resist and break Babidi's attempt at mind controlling him directly once he started disobeying orders. Anyway we're diverging here, I'm not concerning myself with the final result of this match, only that Buu's magical abilities won't really amount to helping him against World War Hulk whose weaker incarnations have resisted matter manipulation and transmutation many times.


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## Montanz (Oct 26, 2016)

Doesn't transmutation have an actual DC requirement now?
Considering you need to break down the atomic bonds first to reconfigurate them into new matter.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 26, 2016)

Montanz said:


> Doesn't transmutation have an actual DC requirement now?
> Considering you need to break down the atomic bonds first to reconfigurate them into new matter.



 Case-by-case business for the same reason we don't automatically assume mass-energy for all creation feats or pseudo fictional black holes as the real deal.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Oct 26, 2016)

How much power do you actually need to kill Kid Buu?

-His Planet Burst was not enough and that was said to have enough power to destroy the Earth 10x over.
-He was killed by an attack that is unquantifiable.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Fang said:


> The bolded are plenty relevant. Transmutation as a whole is a blanket area. He's resisted those things and the power level an Omega class mutant operates on when dealing with elements, supernatural forces, and concepts trump anything Buu has done with his magical abilities. Vegeto was able to retain his power and use his Ki despite being turned into a gumball by Super Buu (Gohan), and when he let Super Buu absorb him, he was able to maintain his form as long as he kept up a Ki barrier in Buu's body.
> 
> Hulk does have feats of resisting people like the High Evolutionary who literally shits on anything Buu can do when it comes to transforming and mutating people with his mutant powers, they'd still apply because its a type of power *that works on altering a person's state from one to another*. They are utterly relevant. Its like Doctor Doom who wouldn't go down against Buu magic because the Marquis of Death who turned his heart to stone, transformed his blood into acid, and had his second BFR Doom's body back into prehistoric times and Doom came back despite all that.
> 
> So yes, the Hulk has a long history of resisting magic and other broken abilities are above Buu's pay grade. And World War Hulk is one of the strongest versions of Hulk. Its not happening.


That's absolute nonsense, how someone is changed is very important. Unless you are implying that FMA alchemy  and Buu's chocolate beam are the same thing - and that resistance to one would grant you the other. 

I have always known magic to be something that you need a very specific resistance defend against. None of the examples you gave show the Hulk avoiding magical transfiguration. All of your examples are more along the lines of gentetic mutation and basic elemental transmutation (a la  FMA). 

Buu isn't transmuting people into chocolate, he isn't rearanging their molecules, or causing them to mutate into chocolate humans. He simply wills humans to be chocolate and so they are chocolate. This should be pretty obvious based on the fact that every chocolate person is the same size - and it isn't the size of a full human. This means huge chunks of matter are just ceasing to exist - that's some reality warping shit right there.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2016)

Its not reality warping and transmutation is still one form of matter modified to another. And I already covered that on my last post on the last page.

He's not really getting shit on Hulk.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> I don't subscribe to the idea of "it's magic, therefore, different" for blanket hax because, as I have said earlier, magic is a power source that branches into multiple powers. You either resist a category of hax or you don't. *Buu's transmutation being magic* *doesn't suddenly make it no longer transmutation*.
> )


Yes, yes it does. Fiction even has another word for it - transfiguration.

Buu is not an alchemist. Magic, by it's very nature is a form of reality warping. It doesn't even play the rules of the verse it's in, let alone our own.


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Yes, yes it does. Fiction even has another word for it - transfiguration.
> 
> Buu is not an alchemist. Magic, by it's very nature is a form of reality warping. It doesn't even play the rules of the verse it's in, let alone their own.



You're arguing literal and quite honestly quintessential semantics here. There are characters who have powers to turn entire cities into glass and shrink larger landmasses then anything Buu has affected with his magic powers that the Hulk has shrugged off. It does not matter how its done, only the results and mechanics incorporated in it. Transmutation is the process of changing one type of matter into another type, it doesn't really hijack the ability if its done by magic, technology, or anything between that. Buu's "magic" is doing it by turning flesh into chocolate or cookies, Glazier's is doing it by turning people into glass. Same concept.

A chick who can turn anything she wants into glass couldn't do shit to the Hulk. A guy who can shrink entire cities by altering their molecular structure couldn't do shit to the Hulk. A guy who can mutate and alter people physically or even devolve them couldn't do shit to the Hulk.

Buu's magic isn't anything special here compared to luminaries like the High Evolutionary's powers.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Fang said:


> You're arguing literal and quite honestly quintessential semantics here. There are characters who have powers to turn entire cities into glass and shrink larger landmasses then anything Buu has affected with his magic powers that the Hulk has shrugged off. It does not matter how its done, only the results and *mechanics incorporated in it*. Transmutation is the process of changing one type of matter into another type, it doesn't really hijack the ability if its done by magic, technology, or anything between that. Buu's "magic" is doing it by turning flesh into chocolate or cookies, Glazier's is doing it by turning people into glass. Same concept.


That is like my WHOLE point.

Magic doesn't have mechanics, it just happens. No rhyme, no reason. No cause, just effect. That is, quite literally, what makes it magic.



> A chick who can turn anything she wants into glass couldn't do shit to the Hulk. A guy who can shrink entire cities by altering their molecular structure couldn't do shit to the Hulk. A guy who can mutate and alter people physically or even devolve them couldn't do shit to the Hulk.
> 
> Buu's magic isn't anything special here compared to luminaries like the High Evolutionary's powers.


Still. Not. Magic

Jafar is not a damn alchemist, and Alphonse isn't a damn sorcerer.


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2016)

Sloth said:


> That is like my WHOLE point.
> 
> Magic doesn't have mechanics, it just happens. No rhyme, no reason. No cause, just effect. That is, quite literally, what makes it magic.



So do the described characters in question I said in my post and they don't use magic at all. It has properties like any other ability or power in fiction and therefore how it works and what it does can be quantified. Buu's magic doesn't get a free pass from being out of this standard impariality when we observe how his power works and its limitations.



> Still. Not. Magic



Still. Not. Reality. Warping.



> Jafar is not a damn alchemist, and Alphonse isn't a damn sorcerer.



Why do you keep bring up FMA or Disney comparisons? Glacizer isn't a magician and she can transmutate people into glass, the Silver Surfer isn't a sorcerer but he can turn people into inanimate objects through the Power Cosmic because matter and energy manipulation is his shtick.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 26, 2016)

That whole "your resistances dun't count cuz it's lolmagic eks dee" bullshit won't fly here, not especially seeing even base Hulk had dealt with better hax than what Buu ever threw out. Magic is just an alternative method to achieve a plethora of results, but pushing for that NLF bullshit us retarded. WW Hulk says no to that shit because he's got feats of resisting astronomically better, easy as that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> That whole *"your resistances dun't count cuz it's lolmagic eks dee"* bullshit won't fly here, not especially seeing even base Hulk had dealt with better hax than what Buu ever threw out. Magic is just an alternative method to achieve a plethora of results, but pushing for that NLF bullshit us retarded. WW Hulk says no to that shit because he's got feats of resisting astronomically better, easy as that.


Really? Nice.

I have never known their to not be a clear split between scifi-science and flat out magic. Transmutation is not magic in-and-of-itself, its not even fiction. I don't see how resisting your cells, atoms, or molecules being forcibly rearranged grants you any resistance to having your very existence just suddenly being chocolate.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Oct 26, 2016)

I always thought this, too. In the realms of fiction, there exists Magic and Physics.

If there exists an explanation for how it works, that's physics. If there is no explanation for how it works, it's Magic. Which is why magic trumps physics even if both methods accomplish the same thing, mainly because magic is harder to overcome due to its very nature.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 26, 2016)

Transmutation should be separated into about three "tiers" of hax imo

> physical transmutation i.e. using energy to physically rearrange things on an atomic/subatomic level, the kind of thing we can do IRL in very small quantities. Lowest tier of transmutation, common to find on characters bound to more realistic sets of 'physics'. Think someone like Dr. Manhattan here.

>magical transmutation i.e the character uses some kind of spell or whatever that forces something to assume another form, this bypasses the energy requirement of the previous tier and becomes somewhat conceptual, e.g. you are now a brick, as opposed to, your atoms are now silicon arranged in a brick like macro-structure

>reality warping, this should be self explanatory

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nep Heart (Oct 26, 2016)

Pretty sure Silver Surfer defies the laws of reality because Power Cosmic doesn't give a damn about physics either. I mean, hell, Hulk resisted reality warping from a Watcher who just makes things happen with no reason beyond his will wanting it to. Speaking of defying rules of reality, Hulk pretty much defies logic all the time simply because he's angry, nothing more. Buu ain't got shit on the Hulk in those aspects, stop pushing the NLF simply because "magic is special" seeing as I can throw out an example of magic having limits that would collapse your argument in a heart beat.

 Also, reality warping isn't exclusive to fantasy either. Doctor Who, anyone?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Transmutation should be separated into about three "tiers" of hax imo
> 
> > physical transmutation i.e. using energy to physically rearrange things on an atomic/subatomic level, the kind of thing we can do IRL in very small quantities. Lowest tier of transmutation, common to find on characters bound to more realistic sets of 'physics'. Think someone like Dr. Manhattan here.
> 
> ...


I have been posting here for a few years now, running on this exact assumption.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> Pretty sure Silver Surfer defies the laws of reality because Power Cosmic doesn't give a damn about physics either. I mean, hell, Hulk resisted reality warping from a Watcher who just makes things happen with no reason beyond his will wanting it to. Speaking of defying rules of reality, Hulk pretty much defies logic all the time simply because he's angry, nothing more. Buu ain't got shit on the Hulk in those aspects, stop pushing the NLF simply because "magic is special" seeing as I can throw out an example of magic having limits that would collapse your argument in a heart beat.
> 
> Also, reality warping isn't exclusive to fantasy either. Doctor Who, anyone?



Everybody understands that all fictional characters , especially superheroes, defy IRL logic constantly. That doesn't mean they don't follow the fictions logic. 

The power cosmic and the Hulk are completely explainable by it's own universes science. The power cosmic is basically just weaponized physics. Magic, on the other hand, doesn't usually come with an explanation - and if it does - it usually involves other mystical components. Basically boiling the whole thing down to "it's magic".


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## Unlucky13 (Oct 26, 2016)

If Hulk deals with marvel reality warping hax than yea, don't think the DBZ magic Buu displays is enough. DBS god tier hax would effect him though.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 26, 2016)

@Sloth 

 Uh, no? The Power Cosmic is a cosmic force that literally transcends the forces of nature in Marvel, nature is practically synonymous with physics. It not only replaces the recepient's soul, but it's derived from an abstract cosmic being and it has shown fests of manipulating magic. If anything, it's certainly vastly superior to Dragon Ball's magic.

 With that said, Hulk isn't foreign against magic hax as brought up earlier in this thread.

@Unlucky13 

Yeah, Beerus soul erasure was something that I would have never expected in Dragon Ball. It's like high level soul and time manipulation simultaneously. That would overkill any version of the Hulk.


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## Toaa (Oct 26, 2016)

I want to see zenos hax


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## Matariki (Oct 26, 2016)

Kid Buu, even Goku as a kid would beat Hulk

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Everybody understands that all fictional characters , especially superheroes, defy IRL logic constantly. That doesn't mean they don't follow the fictions logic.
> 
> The power cosmic and the Hulk are completely explainable by it's own universes science. The power cosmic is basically just weaponized physics. Magic, on the other hand, doesn't usually come with an explanation - and if it does - it usually involves other mystical components. Basically boiling the whole thing down to "it's magic".



That's not how the Power Cosmic works.  And this is pointless, if a character has feats of resisting manipulation of matter, energy, transmutation, and other stick, it sticks. No sense in making it nonsensically more convoluted.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crackle (Oct 26, 2016)

Bannai said:


> Kid Buu of course, even Goku as a kid would beat Hulk


Not unless we scale him from Arale.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Fang said:


> That's not how the Power Cosmic works.  And this is pointless, if a character has feats of resisting manipulation of matter, energy, transmutation, and other stick, it sticks. No sense in making it nonsensically more convoluted.


Magic isn't manipulating energy or matter - it's rewriting _Hulk's_ reality. That's why it's called magic.

The Hulk is not being transmuted, he just IS chocolate. No rearranging of atoms, no manipulation of energy into matter, just chocolate. He might as well have never been the Hulk in the first place.

*Edited*


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## Qinglong (Oct 26, 2016)

Where is that implied... anywhere? are harry potter mages reality warpers now too?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Oct 26, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Magic isn't manipulating energy or matter - it's rewriting _Hulk's_ reality. That's why it's called magic.



No, its not.



> The Hulk is not being transmuted, he just IS chocolate. No rearranging of atoms, no manipulation of energy into matter, just chocolate. He might as well have never been the Hulk in the first place.
> 
> *Edited*



That's not going to happen. I already gave examples countering this by explaining that there are many characters who uses a variety of different powers from different sources that achieve similar if not superior results to Buu's ability to transmutate and turn others into chocolate and candy. Hulk has resisted those types of powers and become immune to them, Buu does not *magically* alter reality, its just a supernatural ability that he possesses. And Hulk has resisted people with those abilities both from the Power Cosmic, other matter manipulators, magic users, and technology.


Magic users do not get a free pass on how their powers work.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 26, 2016)

transmutation is transmutation

if Hulk shows a resistance to it that's on Boo's level, he can resist Boo's candy beam


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

So there is just no difference between advandced scifi-science and magic now? You're right, this is fucking stupid.


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## MaxMaster (Oct 26, 2016)

Hulk is a 4D being, as he can deflect sonic waves capable of destroying the 4D totality of a universe, making him universal+. This means that he is an uncountably infinite number of times greater than Majin Buu, who is only 3D.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Nep Heart (Oct 26, 2016)

Sloth said:


> So there is just no difference between advandced scifi-science and magic now? You're right, this is fucking stupid.



"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

Don't make me throw a Doctor Who example to show why you're being obtuse.


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## MaxMaster (Oct 26, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
> 
> Don't make me throw a Doctor Who example to show why you're being obtuse.


Not like Kid Buu's Chocolate Beam would affect a 4D entity, such as the Hulk, anyway.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Crackle (Oct 26, 2016)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> transmutation is transmutation
> 
> *if Hulk shows a resistance to it that's on Boo's level,* he can resist Boo's candy beam


Buu, who hasn't resisted his own transmutation.


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## Blαck (Oct 26, 2016)

Crackle said:


> Buu, who hasn't resisted his own transmutation.


Think he meant, something on the level of Buu's transmutation


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 26, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
> 
> Don't make me throw a Doctor Who example to show why you're being obtuse.


Just because you can't tell the difference, doesn't mean there isn't one. 

Magic, in fiction, has always been separate from science. It defies ALL explanation, and just works. Assuming it achieves its ends through the same means as science is stupid.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## marks3684 (Oct 26, 2016)

(Comes into this thread)
What the fuck is with these people trying to pull the "Magic Superiority" BS?


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

marks3684 said:


> (Comes into this thread)
> What the fuck is with these people trying to pull the "Magic Superiority" BS?


Because i have literally never known magic to not bypass all but magical resistance.  

But apparently being turned into chocolate by Buu, Ed Elric, Dr Manhattan, a fucking Genie, or Discord is all the exact same thing - transmutation - which is fucking stupid.

Either way, this is an impass, and it's dragging on an otherwise one-sided match. I am done

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## marks3684 (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Because i have literally never known magic to not bypass all but magical resistance.
> 
> But apparently being turned into chocolate by Buu, Ed Elric, Dr Manhattan, a fucking Genie, or Discord is all the exact same thing - transmutation - which is fucking stupid.
> 
> Either way, this is an impass, and it's dragging on an otherwise one-sided match. I am done



Cause the bs you are spewing here in regards to transmutation is such a very narrow-minded bs if I ever saw one. The guys here already explained that the power systems may be different, but the fucking powers of the users of different systems are still the same shit.

It's like arguing that Fire manipulation from a Pryokinesis user and Fire Manipulation from a Fire Mage are completely different, which is fucking retarded.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blαck (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Because i have literally never known magic to not bypass all but magical resistance.
> 
> But apparently being turned into chocolate by Buu, Ed Elric, Dr Manhattan, a fucking Genie, or Discord is all the exact same thing - transmutation - which is fucking stupid.
> 
> Either way, this is an impass, and it's dragging on an otherwise one-sided match. I am done



Well, if you want feats of Hulk resisting magic attacks there's a few(Zeus and the mindless ones for example) but magical transmutation is kinda wacky to search for because the only one that comes to mind is that time Dormmamu took him on.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 27, 2016)

marks3684 said:


> It's like arguing that Fire manipulation from a Pryokinesis user and Fire Manipulation from a Fire Mage are completely different, which is fucking retarded.



No it's not.

What the fuck kind of strawman is this?

It's not about results, it's about _mechanism_.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Perpetrator Rex (Oct 27, 2016)

Wow, I'm pretty sure I have never heard of legit magic and legit  science being the same thing. There are several books by pretty reputable authors that completely disagree. 

One prime example given is the character shooting at someone with a bullet proof vest, said target is resistant to being shot. The magic user would be a guy who can bypass the vest by just making the bullets magically appear inside of you. 

Magic isn't unbeatable but there are specific requirements to get around it.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Magic, in fiction, has always been separate from science. It defies ALL explanation, and just works. Assuming it achieves its ends through the same means as science is stupid.



Doctor Who had the erasure of literal magic on a cosmic scale due to the Time Lords using science to revoke the concept of irrationality from their universe. Actual fantasy world magic that not only ignores rules of nature, but doesn't follow rules either since it bends reality through wishes of the user only. So, yeah, magic ain't getting a NLF pass simply because it's "exceptional" even though I can think of other things superior to magic in fiction.

Not that it matters, Hulk _has_ dealt with magic hax before, far better than Buu's wildest dreams, so... still no sells candy beam.

Edit: never said magic and science are always the same, just saying not all science follows physics and even has outclassed magic in some fictions before. Metaphysics, anyone?


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## Es (Oct 27, 2016)

The hulk has been turned into stone by Gray Gargoyle


& kept fighting soooooo


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## Dudebro (Oct 27, 2016)

marks3684 said:


> Cause the bs you are spewing here in regards to transmutation is such a very narrow-minded bs if I ever saw one. The guys here already explained that the power systems may be different, but the fucking powers of the users of different systems are still the same shit.
> 
> It's like arguing that Fire manipulation from a Pryokinesis user and Fire Manipulation from a Fire Mage are completely different, which is fucking retarded.



That's not at all a good comparison. Regardless of whether it's called magic or not what Sloth describes are two entirely different attacks. One is basically a concentrated energy attack while the other is reality warping. The difference is that one can be reasonably shrugged off by simply being tough enough while the other can't.

The end result may be the same but this is one of those cases where how you get there matters. One is hax while the other isn't.


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## xenos5 (Oct 27, 2016)

Es said:


> The hulk has been turned into stone by Gray Gargoyle
> 
> 
> & kept fighting soooooo



Been staying out of the debate because I thought it'd pretty much been established Hulk should be able to resist the chocolate beam... but, if this were to occur. If Hulk was actually transmuted but he tries to fight in the form he's transmuted into in this fight... It would be much harder for him to fight as a piece of chocolate than as stone. He would have no way of propelling himself like Vegito did through ki flight. Of course people can just claim this is an outlier and Hulk usually completely resists transmutation instead of maintaining sentience after being transmuted. Though I think it'd be interesting to go down this route and see what arguments people can make for chocolate Hulk to somehow beat Buu.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 27, 2016)

pretty sure equalization exists basically to 


Juub said:


> Vegeto has no ability to control himself that is special. He even got caught off guard. It did transform him but he didn't lose an ounce of power so you may as well say it didn't work:
> 
> Shenron being unable to kill off the Saiyans is exactly because they were too powerful. Said so himself. You need to read Dragon Ball again. Power trumps everything.
> 
> ...


Body change bypassed power very notably.
Can't exactly say it didn't work because he didn't resist being turned into candy.
Shenron wasn't able to affect things more powerful than kami, but that doesn't show hax resistance, just that shenron's hax sucks, given we've seen people affect people with higher PL's using hax such as babidi with his mind-control.
GB's still a good example because despite being able to paralyze goku he was clearly weaker than him in physical combat.
that said: doesn't matter.
Shows the character's degrees of hax resistance.
Doesn't add an arbitrary regular dc/dura requirement to resisting hax.
the stats are not linked.


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## Fang (Oct 27, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Been staying out of the debate because I thought it'd pretty much been established Hulk should be able to resist the chocolate beam... but, if this were to occur. If Hulk was actually transmuted but he tries to fight in the form he's transmuted into in this fight... It would be much harder for him to fight as a piece of chocolate than as stone. He would have no way of propelling himself like Vegito did through ki flight. Of course people can just claim this is an outlier and Hulk usually completely resists transmutation instead of maintaining sentience after being transmuted. Though I think it'd be interesting to go down this route and see what arguments people can make for chocolate Hulk to somehow beat Buu.



Its a big if. Like I and others have said before even then the people who have effected the Hulk in the past find their powers generally being no longer up to snuff against World War Hulk. Silver Surfer, a person who can restore life to planets with the Power Cosmic and evolve or devolve people similarly to the High Evolutionary only once managed to successfully affect the Hulk. And this was mainly through him power draining the Hulk. This guy has even turned rock into other states of matter through matter manipulation, pull a reverse philosopher's stone and made gold into sand, turning things from liquid to solid, and even decompose things down to the atomic level.

Its really hard imagining Buu transforming him.


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## The Runner (Oct 27, 2016)

Let's not forget that that was Buuhan that transmutated Vegeto.

Kid Buu is much weaker in general.

Not sure if this means anything but I just thought to point it out.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

Fang said:


> Its a big if. Like I and others have said before even then the people who have effected the Hulk in the past find their powers generally being no longer up to snuff against World War Hulk. Silver Surfer, a person who can restore life to planets with the Power Cosmic and evolve or devolve people similarly to the High Evolutionary only once managed to successfully affect the Hulk. And this was mainly through him power draining the Hulk. This guy has even turned rock into other states of matter through matter manipulation, pull a *reverse philosopher's stone* and made gold into sand, turning things from liquid to solid, and even decompose things down to the atomic level.
> 
> Its really hard imagining Buu transforming him.


Exactly! The philosopher's stone; an object that - outside the HP-verse - is almost always blatantly *not *magic. It manipulates natural forces to generate seemingly supernatural events. This is exactly how all the transmutations Hulk as resisted work.

It is never stated or implied - especially not in Dragon Ball - that magic uses any such mechanisms, it just works. Buu doesn't rearrange your molecular structure, just like Piccolo doesn't rearrange air molecules into clothes.



AgentAAA said:


> Body change bypassed power very notably.
> Can't exactly say it didn't work because he didn't resist being turned into candy.
> Shenron wasn't able to affect things more powerful than kami, but that doesn't show hax resistance, just that shenron's hax sucks, given we've seen people affect people with higher PL's using hax such as babidi with his mind-control.


These are excellent points. I hadn't even considered Ginyu's body swap.

Claiming you have hax resistance because Shenron couldn't affect you would be like claiming you have hax resistance because a Disney Genie can't kill you. These beings have their hax arbitrarily restricted.


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## Fang (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Exactly! The philosopher's stone; an object that - outside the HP-verse - is almost always blatantly *not *magic. It manipulates natural forces to generate seemingly supernatural events. This is exactly how all the transmutations Hulk as resisted work.
> 
> It is never stated or implied - especially not in Dragon Ball - that magic uses any such mechanisms, it just works. Buu doesn't rearrange your molecular structure, just like Piccolo doesn't rearrange air molecules into clothes.



A) Its very clear my example went over your head.
B) There are limits on showings and we observe what those limits are if or if not those powers will work against others

So it doesn't matter how Buu does, what matters is others have done more of the same shit on a higher level then him and Hulk has no sold that shit.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

Fang said:


> A) Its very clear my example went over your head.


Apparently.




> B) There are limits on showings and we observe what those limits are if or if not those powers will work against others


When something is accomplished by magic, it is a completely separate power then when accomplished ANY other way.  That is what makes it magic, and why you need magic resistance to tank it.



> So it doesn't matter how Buu does, what matters is others have done more of the same shit on a higher level then him and Hulk has no sold that shit.


You have given NO examples of Hulk resisting any type of magical transformation. Magical transformation =/= physical transmutation.


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## xenos5 (Oct 27, 2016)

@Sloth

I'm sorry man but you gotta know when it's time to give up. You've driven this debate into ridiculous semantics. Do you even have any evidence Buu's transmutation doesn't rearrange molecules? It's certainly not an instant transformation. You can see here  that he has to shift Dabura's body into a certain position just to turn him into a cookie.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 27, 2016)

For a supposed veteran, Sloth didn't get enough insight to go with the experience. "Your feats don't count because magic is super special" is pretty much a textbook example of a NLF, and is a matter of fact something *Phenomenol* used as his exact defense in his debates. Are you really aiming to sink to that level? Not to mention you don't need magic to reality warp or bypass physics. In fact, a lot of magic has some rules and limits to an extent or another (bringing magic resistance already had you shooting yourself in the foot earlier), otherwise, why do magic systems even exist in the first place unless you're using "magic" as a synonym for "reality warping" here.

Not that it helps Buu either way, Hulk had resisted both fairly easy.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> @Sloth
> 
> I'm sorry man but you gotta know when it's time to give up. You've driven this debate into ridiculous semantics. _Do you even have any evidence Buu's transmutation *doesn't *rearrange molecules?_ It's certainly not an instant transformation. You can see here that he has to shift Dabura's body into a certain position just to turn him into a cookie.


That is 110% not how the burden of proof works. We as the audience are given the explanation that the process is "magic". A force that in the DB universe is given no further explanation. Applying any real world physics to the process is pure conjecture.

What evidence do you have to support the claim that a canonically magical ability achieves it's ends through natural process? Canon says it's magic, you say it's magic-science. You are the ones who need to support this claim.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Divell (Oct 27, 2016)

Hulk destroys in almost every category but that he can't kill Buu.


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## Fang (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Apparently.



Yes.



> When something is accomplished by magic, it is a completely separate power then when accomplished ANY other way.  That is what makes it magic, and why you need magic resistance to tank it.



In other words: you're just going to keep repeating and abusing a no limits argument over and over again with this while continually shifting the burden of proof. Doesn't matter, we've been through this and Buu's magic can't compare to the likes of what the Silver Surfer, Dr. Strange, Glacier, and others have shown so its not going to example.



> You have given NO examples of Hulk resisting any type of magical transformation. Magical transformation =/= physical transmutation.



I actually have. But its irrelevant to your argument because the simple matter is Hulk has no sold matter manipulation, transmutation, and so on by people all well above Buu's magic. That simple.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

Fang said:


> In other words: you're just going to keep repeating and abusing a no limits argument over and over again with this while continually shifting the burden of proof. Doesn't matter, we've been through this and Buu's magic can't compare so its not going to example.


Shifting the burden of proof? Are you fucking kidding me right now?

I'm not the one making claims contrary to evidence provided by the canon. You are claiming to know how Buu's magic works, that it is just another form of physical transmutation. How is it not your place to support that claim? Magic in DB has shown no rules, no mechanisms no anything.

Since I'm sure you are already running on this impression - let's assume I'm a little slow; show me one more time which examples you gave that fell under the category of magical transformation. All I remember is glass chick, High-Evolutionary, and MoD.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## AgentAAA (Oct 27, 2016)

If the effect is the same regardless, the mechanics to resist being changed should also be the same.
This pretty much goes under the equalization rules, same as reishi paralysis and the like

Reactions: Like 1


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## Qinglong (Oct 27, 2016)

Why is this even being discussed, it was partially resisted in canon

Hulk has better resistance feats against better hax

ergo Hulk is going to resist it

the end

Reactions: Agree 3


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## xenos5 (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> That is 110% not how the burden of proof works. We as the audience are given the explanation that the process is "magic". A force that in the DB universe is given no further explanation. Applying any real world physics to the process is pure conjecture.
> 
> What evidence do you have to support the claim that a canonically magical ability achieves it's ends through natural process? Canon says it's magic, you say it's magic-science. You are the ones who need to support this claim.



Transmutation is transmutation. Whether it's achieved by magic or science it is usually done by rearranging molecules. If like you claimed earlier buu's transmutation worked in a way that 





Sloth said:


> No rearranging of atoms, no manipulation of energy into matter, just chocolate. He might as well have never been the Hulk in the first place.


 there should've been no way for Vegito to keep his consciousness. If it had been like he'd never been Vegito in the first place he wouldn't be able to keep his consciousness as chocolate doesn't have consciousness. If his biological functions were somehow condensed into a piece of candy then it'd at least make some sense for him to still be able to think.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> If the effect is the same regardless, the mechanics to resist being changed should also be the same.
> This pretty much goes under the equalization rules, same as reishi paralysis and the like


If that's how equalization works, it's kind of retarded. Just mho. 

If an omnipotent God just willed me to into a rabbit, I'm pretty sure I'm just a rabbit. My molecules didn't shift into a rabbit, I didn't devolve into a rabbit, I just am a rabbit. This is not true if say, someone like Dr. Manhattan re-arranged my atoms into a rabbit. So why would defending against one be the same as the other. It's flat out nonsensical.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Shifting the burden of proof? Are you fucking kidding me right now?



Nah, you can read right? You've gone the entire thread claiming because Buu uses magic, the effects of his powers can't be countered or resisted unless someone has countered magic. Ignoring the fact the means are irrelevant; be it magic, some other form of supernatural ability, technological, cosmic, whatever. You've insisted this the whole thread.



> I'm not the one making claims contrary to evidence provided by the canon.



That sounds like your problem there. Because what you are doing is making no limits arguments and saying in short is: "Its magic, it doesn't matter if Hulk has resisted people who can do the same shit as Buu but since they don't do it with magic, his resistance to it won't matter for squat."

That's the crux of your argument.



> You are claiming to know how Buu's magic works, that it is just another form of physical transmutation. How is it not your place to support that claim? Magic in DB has shown no rules, no mechanisms no anything.



I never claimed that. I said its a form of matter manipulation that operates like another set of transmutation powers. I gave you examples of Hulk resisting it from people like the Silver Surfer who has done the same shit on a higher level then Buu has, and you're repeatedly just going "lol nope it doesn't matter because it ain't magic, no limits basically" in response.

The Power Cosmic has less limitations then Buu's magic.

Ergo the Power Cosmic > Buu's magic.
Ergo the Silver Surfer > Buu.
Hulk has resisted the Silver Surfer's attempts to change him into different states of matter, transmutation, and physical alterations to his state of being.
Ergo Hulk > Buu's magic.

That's Occham's Razor in action. 

And in the OBD we go by a standard of showings. Sure Buu's magical powers and magic in general are usually glossed over and never discussed at length in DB but that doesn't mean you get to say "we don't know how it works so resisting things that work similar to it shouldn't count unless its the same as DB's magic" is a crock of shit.



> Since I'm sure you are already running on this impression - let's assume I'm a little slow; show me one more time which examples you gave that fell under the category of magical transformation. All I remember is glass chick, High-Evolutionary, and MoD.



You can bother scrolling up.

But protip: no one is going to let you get away with claiming the no limits argument on Buu's magic transformation power.[/QUOTE]

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Nep Heart (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> If an omnipotent God just willed me to into a rabbit, I'm pretty sure I'm just a rabbit.



>Brings up omnipotence
 >Implying Buu is an omnipotent god

 Wow, that was retarded, your argument really is Phenonenol level. Negging.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Transmutation is transmutation. Whether it's achieved by magic or science it is usually done by rearranging molecules. If like you claimed earlier buu's transmutation worked in a way that  there should've been no way for Vegito to keep his consciousness. If it had been like he'd never been Vegito in the first place he wouldn't be able to keep his consciousness as chocolate doesn't have consciousness. If his biological functions were somehow condensed into a piece of candy then it'd at least make some sense for him to still be able to think.


This makes some sense.

I would make the argument that a lot of a DB character's personality and conscious is directly connect to their soul. So, while Buu's magic may affect the body, it doesn't affect the soul. Which, as I type, I realize grants more credence to the idea that it is a physical transmutation. If this is the case, then I guess I was wrong.

Not that this changes anything. I was never arguing that Hulk would lose this fight. Just hat based on the evidence he *could* be turned into chocolate. Which, based on new evidence, seems to maybe not be the case.


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## AgentAAA (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> If that's how equalization works, it's kind of retarded. Just mho.
> 
> If an omnipotent God just willed me to into a rabbit, I'm pretty sure I'm just a rabbit. My molecules didn't shift into a rabbit, I didn't devolve into a rabbit, I just am a rabbit. This is not true if say, someone like Dr. Manhattan re-arranged my atoms into a rabbit. So why would defending against one be the same as the other. It's flat out nonsensical.


I mean...
Your state was changed against your will.
So it is pretty much the same thing.
whether fire is created by magic or science, it's still fire in the end.
However, that's the main issue here:
God, in fiction or out, generally has a mechanism to cause something.
it's the same reason we don't actually allow "omnipotence" here, because we don't assume a mechanism is more or less powerful than what is shown.
Quite a few "magic" systems - diablo in particular - still work on scientific principles, or simply by allowing free manipulation of established laws of physics. Assuming Buu's magic works automatically in that fashion without some proof would be silly.
Ignoring that, this is where stuff like "but what about reishi crush/genjutsu/etc." come in and muddy the argument.
If we don't assume some form of equivalence between verses, the amount of people with stuff that lends invincibility to attacks that aren't specifically one thing, or amount of attacks impossible to block by someone outside your verse, gets high and silly, to the point there's not much real argument.

How his magic works also isn't established, so going 'it just makes it this" is also argument not supported by the source material anyways.


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> >Brings up omnipotence
> >Implying Buu is an omnipotent god
> 
> Wow, that was retarded, your argument really is Phenonenol level. Negging.


A. Fuck you. I'm getting real tired of your attitude.
B. Learn to read. I was using the God as an example of how the same effect can be achieved through vastly different means, and as such resistance shouldn't be universal. 
C. Neg returned in kind

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## Nep Heart (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> A. Fuck you. I'm getting real tired of your attitude.
> B. Learn to read. I was using the God as an example of how the same effect can be achieved through vastly different means, and as such resistance shouldn't be universal.
> C. Neg returned in kind



A. Butt-hurt
B. You're not even arguing different ways to resist an effect, you're basically abusing the equivalent to a "only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha" logic here, mate. Even reality warping has limits, get over it.
C. Butt-hurt confirmed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

Ampchu said:


> A. Butt-hurt
> B. You're not even arguing different ways to resist an effect, you're basically abusing the equivalent to a "only an Uchiha can defeat an Uchiha" logic here, mate. Even reality warping has limits, get over it.
> C. Butt-hurt confirmed.


Name call all you want. I got out of middle school 15 years, I'm cool. I had no problem debating with you, but you have been an aggressive ass this whole time. I get that this hobby doesn't attract the oldest or most mature crowd, but can we not have some civil discourse.

I have always understood magic to work the same way the will of the Biblical God does, without rhyme or reason. One just wills it, and it happens. I understand that a lot of fiction has taken to adapting the manipulation of irl forces into magic, but I had always understood magic in it's basest form - which is what we get in DB - to be synonymous with the miraculous. No explanation, no mechanics, co cause, just effect. That's why we call it magic.

I can see I have bee laboring under false pretenses. My bad.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> I have always understood magic to work the same way the will of the Biblical God does, without rhyme or reason. One just wills it, and it happens. I understand that a lot of fiction has taken to adapting the manipulation of irl forces into magic, but I had always understood magic in it's basest form - which is what we get in DB - to be synonymous with the miraculous. No explanation, no mechanics, co cause, just effect. That's why we call it magic.



 That's what we call reality warping. Reality warping doesn't care about rules beyond breaking and bypassing those established by reality. As counterintuitive as it sounds, reality warping can be resisted if the feats exist. Ergo, Hulk's plethora of resistances including against the very powers that don't give a damn about physics including reality warping and magic (which, in my eyes, is pretty much a specialized, if not inferior form of reality warping if it even needs to be categorized in the first place). Amd trust me, Buu's candy beam is low-key in matter manipulation as it is compared to other magic users.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## AgentAAA (Oct 27, 2016)

Sloth said:


> Name call all you want. I got out of middle school 15 years, I'm cool. I had no problem debating with you, but you have been an aggressive ass this whole time. I get that this hobby doesn't attract the oldest or most mature crowd, but can we not have some civil discourse.
> 
> I have always understood magic to work the same way the will of the Biblical God does, without rhyme or reason. One just wills it, and it happens. I understand that a lot of fiction has taken to adapting the manipulation of irl forces into magic, but I had always understood magic in it's basest form - which is what we get in DB - to be synonymous with the miraculous. No explanation, no mechanics, co cause, just effect. That's why we call it magic.
> 
> I can see I have bee laboring under false pretenses. My bad.



To be fair, even when it comes to the earliest forms of "actual" magic, such was not the case. There was always some form of "why".


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 27, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> If the effect is the same regardless, the mechanics to resist being changed should also be the same.





what?

that doesn't make any sense at all

let's say the effect is "you die"

and the mechanic of one attack is "I shoot you in the face" and the mechanic of the other attack is "I cut your fate line" or whatever other mystical attack

how are these the same and how does resisting one imply resistance of the other?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 27, 2016)

you're confusing what exactly the equivalence rule does with this issue for some reason btw

equivalence has nothing to do with this


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## Edward Nygma (Oct 27, 2016)

AgentAAA said:


> To be fair, even when it comes to the earliest forms of "actual" magic, such was not the case. There was always some form of "why".


Yes, but that "why" usually just lead to another supernatural power or entity. The earliest magic I can think of would have likely involved channeling divines (or demons) - some which would have had literal omnipotence - and that's not an explanation.


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## Fang (Oct 27, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> what?
> 
> that doesn't make any sense at all
> 
> ...



Here's a better example

- One character, let's call him A, can alter or change matter into anyway he see fits through a beam from some super advanced technological weapon or device at their target
- Another character, let's call her B, can do the same thing but with supernatural power of her own (magic, cosmic forces, hitherto unknown energy source, etc...) and does so by shooting a blast or beam at their target

Character C was immune to the powers of Character A, why wouldn't he be immune to the powers of Character B?

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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 27, 2016)

Fang said:


> Here's a better example
> 
> - One character, let's call him A, can alter or change matter into anyway he see fits through a beam from some super advanced technological weapon or device at their target
> - Another character, let's call her B, can do the same thing but with supernatural power of her own (magic, cosmic forces, hitherto unknown energy source, etc...) and does so by shooting a blast or beam at their target
> ...



They would be immune because the mechanics of what you just described are the same 

reminder: I already know Hulk can resist this effect, I'm clearing up the mistaken ideas ITT about how hax work, not commenting on this specifically

what doesn't matter: effect

what matters: mechanics/cause

unless your resistance involves like resetting yourself or something I guess


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## AgentAAA (Oct 27, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> what?
> 
> that doesn't make any sense at all
> 
> ...



Not exactly what I meant by "effect" that's more "result".

What you're calling mechanics is what I mean by effect. but it doesn't matter whether you're using your mind and body's ki or a gun as long as the effect created by your technique is an explosive blast, the same resistances apply as long as the process that occurs is the same. I.E magic fire and regular fire aren't different things to resist unless the magic fire's shown itself to be sufficiently different in the way it burns you.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Oct 27, 2016)

That's what I'm saying

you can't draw an equivalence between every type of transmutation ever because they don't all necessarily work the same, there's not a common medium like a soul or a mind or whatever


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## Nep Heart (Oct 27, 2016)

I don't think it was being argued about all forms of transmutation have the same qualities so much as general consensus disagreeing with the notion of Buu's transmutation being of higher quality than anything Hulk has resisted like if magic is inheritedly superior to anything and everything... in a sense, debunking the NLF claim that magic had infinitely better quality than anything else in spite of straight up reality warping transmutation was already listed as a higher quality than magical transmutation a page earlier.


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## Nep Heart (Oct 28, 2016)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> common medium like a *soul or a mind* or whatever



 Also, honestly, even these are subjected to different categories of quality, too, I've dealt and seen enough variety to believe they should be case-by-case too.


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## Es (Oct 28, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> Been staying out of the debate because I thought it'd pretty much been established Hulk should be able to resist the chocolate beam... but, if this were to occur. If Hulk was actually transmuted but he tries to fight in the form he's transmuted into in this fight... It would be much harder for him to fight as a piece of chocolate than as stone. He would have no way of propelling himself like Vegito did through ki flight. Of course people can just claim this is an outlier and Hulk usually completely resists transmutation instead of maintaining sentience after being transmuted. Though I think it'd be interesting to go down this route and see what arguments people can make for chocolate Hulk to somehow beat Buu.


He could bounce for one


Bannai said:


> that makes no sense



So? Hes done it.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 28, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> He'd have no mechanism by which to propel himself with as a ball of chocolate.


His anger.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Runner (Oct 28, 2016)

xenos5 said:


> He'd have no mechanism by which to propel himself with as a ball of chocolate.


What part of _HULK SMASH! _did you not get, bro?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The Runner (Oct 28, 2016)

In all seriousness Hulk has felt with higher transmutation before. This is easy shit to understand.


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Some large star level feats for Hulk?


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

You mean besides the fact that weaker versions of World War Hulk like regular Hulk have harmed beings like the Silver Surfer who can sit a black hole and be fine? Or gone toe to toe with Thor and Juggernaut repeatedly? Or kicked around Hercules?


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> You mean besides the fact that weaker versions of World War Hulk like regular Hulk have harmed beings like the Silver Surfer who can sit a black hole and be fine? Or gone toe to toe with Thor and Juggernaut repeatedly? Or kicked around Hercules?



going toe to toe with base Thor and Juggernaut != large star level feat, and I'm pretty sure Silver Surfer sitting on a black hole is a massive outlier.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> going toe to toe with base Thor and Juggernaut != large star level feat, and I'm pretty sure Silver Surfer sitting on a black hole is a massive outlier.



Thor is stronger then Beta Ray Bill. Silver Surfer is stronger then Stardust. Beta Ray Bill and Stardust's fight were destroying groups of black holes and stars. Red Shift, who is one of the WEAKEST Heralds that Galactus ever had was fighting the Silver Surfer inside of a black hole and neither gave a shit about it.

You don't know what your talking about.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> Thor is stronger then Beta Ray Bill. Silver Surfer is stronger then Stardust. Beta Ray Bill and Stardust's fight were destroying groups of black holes and stars. Red Shift, who is one of the WEAKEST Heralds that Galactus ever had was fighting the Silver Surfer inside of a black hole and neither gave a shit about it.
> 
> You don't know what your talking about.



Nice scans and context there, man. I smell outlier.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> Nice scans and context there, man. I smell outlier.



So you make a claim out of your ass and say that its an outlier. You don't provide any proof or evidence for why it should be treated as one and then you tell me I have to post scans and context when I explained it? What other context is even needed to show Red Shift and Silver Surfer fighting in black holes? Or two guys below both him and Thor have wrecked larger and greater showings of DC then even that they are applicable to with powerscaling?

Are you insane?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> So you make a claim out of your ass and say that its an outlier. You don't provide any proof or evidence for why it should be treated as one and then you tell me I have to post scans and context when I explained it? What other context is even needed to show Red Shift and Silver Surfer fighting in black holes? Or two guys below both him and Thor have wrecked larger and greater showings of DC then even that they are applicable to with poewrscaling?
> 
> Are you insane?






I'm pretty sure you're the one who's insane. Now bring the scans and the evidence. Your language tells me it's made up evidence.


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> I'm pretty sure you're the one who's insane. Now bring the scans and the evidence.



You made the assertion, the burden of proof is on you.  Also: none of what I said is a red herring, it is directly related to the current tangent that relates to the Hulk.

Quoting fallacies at me and misusing them isn't going to work with your poison the well bullshit.


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> You made the assertion, the burden of proof is on you.  Also: none of what I said is a red herring, it is directly related to the current tangent that relates to the Hulk.
> 
> Quoting fallacies at me and misusing them isn't going to work with your poison the well bullshit.



I asked for evidence of large star level feats for Hulk. You only posted text and didn't bother to bring scans because you're too lazy it seems. You brought bad evidence, that's the fact.

also you don't seem like you know what poisoning the well means


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## Roggiano (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> " Or two guys below both him and Thor *have wrecked larger and greater showings of DC *then even that they are applicable to with powerscaling?"
> 
> so apparently thor is part of DC. ok.


I'm not going to touch whether or not Hulk is star level or not (I wouldn't know) but you do understand that the OBD uses powerscaling?  And that if a character constantly fights head-to-head with a character without some sort of gimmick or perhaps some PIS/CIS was involved or such (aka, a straight fight), they generally get comparable stats (not necessarily equal, just comparable) as it won't make sense otherwise for the character to be able to constantly hang with a character above him/her?


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## Keollyn (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> " Or two guys below both him and Thor *have wrecked larger and greater showings of DC *then even that they are applicable to with powerscaling?"
> 
> so apparently thor is part of DC. ok.



DC = Destructive capacity. That sentence wouldn't even make sense if he was talking about the company.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Keollyn said:


> DC = Destructive capacity. That sentence wouldn't even make sense if he was talking about the company.



oops, that's what happens when english is not your mother tongue


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## Adamant soul (Oct 28, 2016)

So might as well give my thoughts. Hulk is superior physically and I'm convinced he isn't being transmuted either based on what Fang said earlier. The issue is killing Buu as his regeneration is pretty OP. Money would be on the Hulk anyway as you can wear Buu down and hopefully knock him out eventually at least.


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> I asked for evidence of large star level feats for Hulk.



Which I gave via powerscaling.



> You only posted text and didn't bother to bring scans because you're too lazy it seems. You brought bad evidence, that's the fact.



Nope. You claimed the black hole feat was an outlier. You asserted this and expect that to play out as such but that's not how the burden of proof works here.



> also you don't seem like you know what poisoning the well means



I know exactly what it means.


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Also Stardust and Silver Surfer have feats of casually making black holes anyway which is > star level by a massive margin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> Also Stardust and Silver Surfer have feats of casually making black holes anyway which is > star level by a massive margin.



What issue?

Yeah, I don't know too much about Marvel, that's why I asked for scans in the first place.


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

You don't know much about anything apparently when it comes to Marvel.

And that's from the Annihilation event.


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> You don't know much about anything apparently.
> 
> And that's from the Annihilation event.



A bold claim.

And WHAT ISSUE? As in, Annihilation event, number?


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

"A 48-page  issue, _Annihilation: Prologue_, was released on March 15, 2006. It was followed by four concurrent 4-issue ,  (April 1, 2006),  (April 12, 2006),  (April 19, 2006), and  (April 26, 2006). _Annihilation_ was published as a six issue mini series beginning in August 2006. It was followed by two issues of  and a new volume of Nova."

how about you read this and understand what I'm talking about

don't act arrogant when you don't know how to post evidence because you're embarrassing yourself


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> "A 48-page  issue, _Annihilation: Prologue_, was released on March 15, 2006. It was followed by four concurrent 4-issue ,  (April 1, 2006),  (April 12, 2006),  (April 19, 2006), and  (April 26, 2006). _Annihilation_ was published as a six issue mini series beginning in August 2006. It was followed by two issues of  and a new volume of Nova."
> 
> how about you read this and understand what I'm talking about
> 
> don't act arrogant when you don't know how to post evidence because you're embarrassing yourself



Are you purposely trying to emulate Tonathan now? Annihilation is a crossover event in the #616 universe, I posted the feat. Why are you being so obstinate?


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 28, 2016)

Fang said:


> Are you purposely trying to emulate Tonathan now?



in. which. one. of. those. issues. did. those. scans. come. from.

I'm asking you something and you're comparing me to Tonathan

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Have fun at it I guess, dupe kun.


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## Es (Oct 28, 2016)

this goy

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gordo solos (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> I'm pretty sure Silver Surfer sitting on a black hole is a massive outlier.


How? Even Terrax has been inside black holes before

This is common shit for Heralds


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

Gordo solos said:


> How? Even Terrax has been inside black holes before
> 
> This is common shit for Heralds



Because he has no idea what he's talking about. Terrax for shits and giggles has casually also sliced planets in half and busted large stars. He's at best a mid tier Herald; Silver Surfer, the Fallen One, and Stadust have destroyed multiple black holes, several stars, blowing up star systems and crazier shit like Silver Surfer's best canon individual feat being able to take hits and blasts from two Primordial entities who are on a similar power level to a normal Galactus (minus Ultimate Nullifer), and manipulating the energies of the Big Crunch.

Its ludicrous.

Like I even told him before, we even have the well known fight between Beta Ray Bill and Stardust destroy stars and black holes as side effect collateral and their both inferior somewhat to Norrin and Thor.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Nep Heart (Oct 28, 2016)

By the logic of black holes being an outlier for Heralds, small star level+ Kid Buu would also have to be labeled an outlier because nobody in Dragon Ball part 2 has actually destroyed a star. Kappa


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## AgentAAA (Oct 28, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> ok you're becoming funny. I'll look up for that issue.


Unless you think it's secretly some fanfic comic, who gives a shit what specific issue it's from?


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## Fang (Oct 28, 2016)

I think he's trying to downplay and allude that the Annihilation event is somehow non-canon. Which is dumb set it was set right after Civil War and was the main event of the year for Marvel Cosmics (i.e. superheros in outer space away from the Earth) in the #616 universe.


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> Nice scans and context there, man. I smell outlier.



This work?


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## creyzi4zb12 (Oct 29, 2016)

A Black Hole the size of a person is a star level black hole? 

Way to go in destroying your own argument. 

Guess this proves Silver Surfer aint Star Level after all.  

Now that we're done with that, Buu can proceed to destroy Hulk with said Chocolate Beam.

Reactions: Dislike 9


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 29, 2016)

>Size of a person

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> A Black Hole the size of a person is a star level black hole?
> 
> Way to go in destroying your own argument.
> 
> ...



This man will single handedly revive the cancerdome!

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Gordo solos (Oct 29, 2016)

"size of a person"

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 29, 2016)

Blαck said:


> This work?



I don't think that's enough context. My main concern is that people often like to ignore the very next scans (see batman hitting spectre)

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> I don't think that's enough context. My main concern is that people often like to ignore the very next scans (see batman hitting spectre)


I'll check again but what exactly are you searching for? we clearly see them in a black hole completely unharmed even fighting like it's another random day.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

Here's another but from terrax.


Old but same example. can't find the following page for the red shift/Surfer one. will search for more

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 29, 2016)

Blαck said:


> I'll check again but what exactly are you searching for? we clearly see them in a black hole completely unharmed even fighting like it's another random day.



Looking for the exact issue where this happened.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> Looking for the exact issue where this happened.



1999 galactus the destroyer issues 8-19 
Best I could do, guessing the fight or its build up is throughout 8-19

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

My bad it's galactus the devourer not destroyer

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> I don't think that's enough context. My main concern is that people often like to ignore the very next scans (see batman hitting spectre)



You have no *main concern* here except downplaying and outright dishonesty to attempt to invalidate the feat.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 2


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## Haro (Oct 29, 2016)

this thread is still happening?


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 29, 2016)

Fang said:


> You have no *main concern* here except downplaying and outright dishonesty to attempt to invalidate the feat.



Prove it or shut the fuck up.

Don't you dare accuse me that I don't know anything and downplay, when you don't even know the issue the scans you posted come from.

Update: Looked around for a bit and read the issue. Silver Surfer can survive in black holes because he has gravity manipulation hax it seems. Not DC related.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 3


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## Qinglong (Oct 29, 2016)

He created a black hole before he even became a herald

and gave herald Nova the energy to make a star go supernova

You're getting as bad as crezy and should be ignored at the rate you're going

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Fang (Oct 29, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> Prove it or shut the fuck up.
> 
> Don't you dare accuse me that I don't know anything and downplay, when you don't even know the issue the scans you posted come from.
> 
> Update: Looked around for a bit and read the issue. Silver Surfer can survive in black holes because he has gravity manipulation hax it seems. Not DC related.



>confusing Silver Surfer with Nova now
>explained the feat is from Annihlation event
>tries to downplay that by demanding what issue its from autistically
>ad hominems

Top lel.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Gordo solos (Oct 29, 2016)

People shouldn't downplay heralds


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## Ferrothorn (Oct 30, 2016)

Fang said:


> >confusing Silver Surfer with Nova now
> >explained the feat is from Annihlation event
> >tries to downplay that by demanding what issue its from autistically
> >ad hominems
> ...



Hey, you were the one who attacked me with ad hominems in the first place, especially when you compared me to Tonathan. Dude, the feats you posted came from Galactus the Devourer, not the Annihilation event. And please explain where did I mix up Silver Surfer with Nova.

Anyway, I just saw a solar system level feat for Silver Surfer, so I concede.


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## Fang (Oct 30, 2016)

Ferrothorn said:


> Hey, you were the one who attacked me with ad hominems in the first place, especially when you compared me to Tonathan. Dude, the feats you posted came from Galactus the Devourer, not the Annihilation event. And please explain where did I mix up Silver Surfer with Nova.
> 
> Anyway, I just saw a solar system level feat for Silver Surfer, so I concede.



>attacked you with ad hominems

Never happened. Also wrong again.

Reactions: Agree 2


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