# Why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya



## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2019)

What's this?! An UchihaX28 thread that isn't dedicated to Uchiha wanking? Who is he and what has he done to UchihaX28? 

 To preface, it seems as though people are constantly underrating Kakashi by denying any advantages Kakashi has in this match-up whilst simultaneously fabricating comparisons such as Jiraiya being faster with absolutely no basis. The purpose of this thread is for me to provide a thorough breakdown as to why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya. This is not a thread where you discuss your opinion on the matter because there's already another thread for that unless it directly pertains to the arguments that I'm presenting.

* Introduction *​



Kakashi has a plethora of tools in order to win this match-up. He has the tactical mind that surpasses Shikamaru's, speed that can compete with faster competitors than Jiraiya, and the Sharingan which can be used in a multitude of ways which will be described later in this match-up. It's no surprise to anyone that Pain Arc Kakashi is inferior to Jiraiya who received praise from Pain for his performance against him. However, War Arc Kakashi has accrued even greater feats since then, received praise from Obito and Madara, displayed greater proficiency in using his Mangekyo, and finally mastered his Sharingan as of Databook 4. Kakashi is not the same person he was before the War Arc.

* Speed *​
 One of Kakashi's signature traits is not only his tactical mind, but his speed as well. He managed to battle against V2 Jins directly in combat who were wielding Obito's Sharingan and taking advantage of Shared Vision as a result. Many who don't view this as a significant thing forget to consider the fact that even before using Bijuu enhancements, Obito's Jinchuuriki were explicitly shown to be too fast for KCM Naruto and their Sharingan enabled them to see through all of KCM Naruto's and Base Bee's moves, both of which are much faster than SM Jiraiya. In spite of this, Kakashi managed to battle them directly while Jiraiya struggled immensely against Nagato's paths who were physically slower and did not have the major reaction buff that Obito's paths did thanks to his Sharingan. One point-blank blindside punch from SM Jiraiya was effortlessly cock-blocked by Human Path and he was forced to retreat and target Animal Path instead.

Throughout the manga, Kakashi has accrued many other feats as well. He matched Itachi twice by showcasing the sufficient speed and reflexes necessary to see through Itachi's bluff and simultaneously react to his suiton attack from underwater. During that time-frame, Kakashi not only countered Itachi's attack, but he managed to bunshin feint him and caught him off-guard with a potential attack from under-water. He displayed even greater skill during their 2nd encounter when Kakashi bunshin feinted him within a few panels and restrained him to set him up for Naruto's Oodama Rasengan. Let's not forget that Itachi is quite the speedster and managed to bunshin feint Hebi Sasuke and swap places with his bunshin which his Sharingan could not detect while Kakashi could. Let's take this a step further and refer to Sasuke's feat against V1 Bee. He was weaker than Hebi Sasuke was yet displayed reaction speed that reminded Bee of Raikage. This doesn't mean Kakashi is flat out faster than V1 Raikage is, but it guarantees that Kakashi even prior to the War Arc displayed reaction speed comparable to V1 Raikage's based on his performance against Itachi who is faster than Hebi Sasuke is.

Lastly, let's refer to Kakashi's speed relative to Gai. It's implied that Kakashi could compete with Gai several times in CQC which forced Gai to devise a counter through Sharingan Genjutsu because he couldn't counter him with his Taijutsu. This is the same CQC expert who outclassed KCM Naruto in taijutsu. Kakashi also managed to operate on a similar level as 6th Gate Gai as his Raiden matched 6th Gate Gai's Morning Peacock in speed. 6th Gate Gai also outsped Kisame before he could form a single thought and Kisame outmaneuvered Base Bee who could react to an attack from Minato and was fast enough to intercept a punch from V1 Raikage on Naruto at point-blank range. He also evaded V1 Bee effortlessly which we concluded is a feat that rivals Sharingan users and is within V1 Raikage's tier. Thus, we conclude that Kakashi during the War Arc is actually much faster than Kisame who is within V1 Raikage tier in terms of reflexes which is far beyond Jiraiya's paygrade here as it requires the likes of War Arc SM Naruto to precisely react to V1 Raikage. This may seem absurd to some, but Base Gai still outperformed KCM Naruto in CQC and easily reacted to a blindside attack from Obito, so this is equally as likely.

 The fact that Kakashi consistently competes with someone who outclasses KCM Naruto in CQC, can amp his speed even further through Gates, and has Genjutsu to apply constant pressure during a battle should cement his superiority over SM Jiraiya in that regard.

* Ninjutsu *​
While it is true that Jiraiya's ninjutsu potential exceeds Kakashi's, people blatantly ignore one of the predominant advantages of the Sharingan which has been displayed during the beginning of the manga and it's the ability to read into ninjutsu and counter it effectively. This was illustrated during Kakashi's battle with Zabuza where he preempted all of Zabuza's seals and managed to replicate his ninjutsu which ended the match.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




 Zabuza and Kakashi's stats at the time were relatively comparable and this result still happened. The speed disparity between Kakashi and Jiraiya as proven above is massive. Therefore, this event will inevitably happen where Kakashi preempts Jiraiya's seals, replicates them, and executes his jutsu before Jiraiya can even use his. Jiraiya's ninjutsu outside of Boss Summons which Kakashi can counter is not really that impressive to begin with and Kakashi holds the elemental advantage through Suiton and Raiton, so reading his seals to discern what type of jutsu is going to be used can also be used as a means to overpower Jiraiya. This advantage still holds true even towards the end of the manga even against a Perfect Sage, so the premise of Jiraiya having Sage Mode should guarantee victory in a ninjutsu exchange is an invalid argument and more accurately, a fallacy. Kakashi is not the generic elite Uchiha like Itachi is, he has a moniker that stems from his ability to use ninjutsu that is known throughout the entire world and the Akatsuki. Itachi being able to accomplish such a feat makes it more likely that Kakashi can to and integrate such a tactic into his fighting style seamlessly when battling Jiraiya.

* Sharingan Mastery *​
This is something people gloss over when comparing War Arc Kakashi to his previous iterations. It's true that Kakashi is not an Uchiha which has been established to be a significant detriment for his ability to even use the Sharingan. However, as of Databook 4, Kishimoto explicitly states that Kakashi has finally mastered his Sharingan and can use it as if he were a full-blooded Uchiha.




			
				Databook 4 said:
			
		

> Inherited from a friend... even *unlocking and mastering the amazing ocular technique of the "Mangekyo Sharingan"*...



This entails that all of his abilities from using the Sharingan would receive a significant advantage including his perception, Kamui, ability to handle Sharingan strain, and Sharingan Genjutsu. It was heavily implied in Danzo and Sasuke's final exchange that.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




 His skills of observation and ability to process external stimuli are greater due to mastering the Sharingan and it was for that very reason that Danzo lost to Sasuke despite wielding numerous Sharingan and possessing Hashirama's DNA. War Arc Kakashi is not the same Kakashi we once knew prior. He's a new man who can finally use his Sharingan more liberally and can use jutsu in conjunction with the Sharingan due to his ability to handle the Sharingan much like an Uchiha would.

 This also means that arguments that suggest that Kakashi won't use Kamui are inherently false. We're explicitly told numerous times that Kakashi refrains from using Kamui unless he was in a precarious situation due to the strain he experiences every time he uses it. [1] [2] This is no longer the case with Kakashi who could clash with Obito as his equal in genjutsu, could use Kamui several times throughout the War Arc and outwitted Obito with it, and was praised by both Obito and Madara as if he were an Uchiha, the latter of which explicitly compared him to EMS Sasuke to some extent. He was tired throughout the War Arc yet used it multiple times against Obito, used it to warp the Hachibi (Kurama's chakra doesn't mean he handles the aftereffect any better), used it to warp in and out of Kamui dimension a few times (it was implied this was a viable strategy to counter Obito), used it on the Gedo Mazo, and continued to use it multiple times against Juubidara. It is clear that Kakashi's mastery over the Mangekyo Sharingan would give Kakashi no reason to not even use Kamui if the opportunity presents itself.

* Genjutsu *​
Due to his increased mastery over the Sharingan, we have to consider how Genjutsu can be used to his advantage. Prior, an argument can be made that Sharingan Genjutsu is a non-factor. However, it's been established as of Databook 4 that Kakashi has mastered his Sharingan since then and Sharingan genjutsu has been a basic tool employed by Sasuke, Itachi, Madara and Obito. Because Kakashi clashed with Obito in genjutsu and was commended for his ocular prowess by both Obito and Madara, there's literally no reason why he can't even use his Sharingan at least as well as MS Sasuke could whose genjutsu in comparison was stated to be quite pitiful by both Danzo and Obito. This means that subduing Boss Summons is no difficult task at all. Not only did Hebi Sasuke with nearly zero chakra managed to subdue Manda instantaneously, but the Boss Summons are sluggish targets and it's significantly easier to land genjutsu on slower targets than it is with faster targets. It's explicitly why Raikage was immune to Sharingan Genjutsu. Because of this, subduing his Boss Summons shouldn't be a difficult task at all and they can be used against him.

 Let's also not forget that eye contact must be made in order to land Sharingan Genjutsu (obviously). Jiraiya admits that it's impossible to counter an attack without seeing it at all * even if you're a sensor type*.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




 Kakashi is significantly faster than Jiraiya as proven before, so Kakashi's ability to apply constant pressure on Jiraiya will force him to make eye contact with Kakashi like Itachi did with Bee. This is reinforced by the fact that Gai needed to devise a way to counter Sharingan Genjutsu despite having the speed and skill necessary to clash with Obito and outclass KCM Naruto in CQC, react to a blindside attack from Obito on top of that, and has Gates to amp his speed even further. Sharingan Genjutsu is inevitable and it'd be stupid if Jiraiya were to confront Kakashi up close.

* Strategy *​
 It goes without saying, Kakashi's tactical prowess is significantly above Jiraiya's. He's smarter than P1 Shikamaru and has a greater sense of smell than P1 Kiba. The former can think of over 100 possible moves that can be made in a particular situation while the latter will prove very useful in tracking SM Jiraiya if he ever attempts to use Frog Song.

 Now, let's consider a couple of arguments that people make in favor of Jiraiya:

 1. Jiraiya can use LoS blockers to obfuscate Kakashi. While yes, he can, but it's ridiculous to believe that Kakashi in that situation wouldn't devise a strategy in order to counter-attack. Kakashi managed to bunshin feint Itachi while erecting a Suiton barrier and using it to his advantage, he canonically bunshin feinted Itachi in the middle of his Katon and counter-attacked before Itachi could even launch a jutsu, and proceeded to bunshin feint Pain on an open-field despite the advantage of Shared Vision, something Jiraiya couldn't even overcome without a tactical retreat. The idea that Kakashi, the man whose intelligence rivals someone who can plan hundreds of possible moves within in a particular circumstance can't counter a simple smoke bomb is absolutely absurd. Smoke bombs was a tactic P1 Kiba could use and even P1 Naruto could counter it. Don't forget that.

2. Jiraiya has clones? Nothing needs to be said here. Kakashi can as well except he managed to bunshin feint Itachi, the best of the best, and canonically bunshin feinted Pain on an open-field. He also feinted Obito and managed to warp Naruto away without Obito noticing. Jiraiya's best accomplishment was spitting out a fireball against one of Nagato's Paths in an ideal situation where Pain had no choice, but to block it. This is an extremely generic strategy. It's almost as if people cry "clones" at the moment that somebody uses clones on-panel. Nothing would change at all if Jiraiya didn't use a bunshin on panel. If Jiraiya uses a bunshin, he counters with his own. If a generic usage of clones is his best way of landing Frog Song, Kakashi will have no problems. His sense of smell and proficiency in using clones cements this, as well as the fact that he can warp to Jiraiya's location easily through Kamui.

* Conclusion *​


Kakashi can defeat Jiraiya overall. He is significantly faster, he's a superior tactician, his Sharingan can counter Jiraiya's ninjutsu, and his mastery over the Sharingan lends him multiple advantages that he didn't have before when considering this match-up.

Inb4 Jiraiya is faster than Kakashi with no feats. 
Inb4 Jiraiya can avoid genjutsu with no feats. 
Inb4 Jiraiya counters Kamui with no feats. 
Inb4 Jiraiya throwing a smoke bomb KOs Kakashi with no feats. 

 All right Sannin cult, let's see what you got. If you come up with a bogus argument with no evidence/feats to support it and some portrayal garbage such as "Jiraiya beat Juubito" nonsense, then concession accepted. 



Bring it on... Just make sure not to post an equally long response except with the typical lack of feats and substance behind it because I won't tolerate that shit in my thread homie.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Bonly (Apr 15, 2019)

Base Jiraiya would still overwhelm him


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Base Jiraiya would still overwhelm him



 The moment when I realize all my time has been wasted.


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## Bonly (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> The moment when I realize all my time has been wasted.



You should’ve known that as you was typing out all that fluff

Reactions: Like 1


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## sabre320 (Apr 15, 2019)

Yes kakashi can beat jirayia but he would need to use kamui before sage mode which is very probable. Kamui snipe is hax as hell and is ignored for convenience. The only thing that bugs me is people treat kakashi as if he is weaker then hebi sasuke in cqc when he has much better feats of landing clean hits on v2 sharingan amped jinchuriki while evading their hits...this is honestly superior to any cqc feats from itachi or ms sasuke.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> The moment when I realize all my time has been wasted.


You wasted enough time if you read the series and came to any of these conclusions.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> You wasted enough time if you read the series and came to any of these conclusions.



Just what I expected. Bark, but no bite.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 15, 2019)

As usual, no real counters to any of the good points brought up here.

Those posts should be disregarded.

Great points overall, while I do not believe Kakashi's combat speed so far ahead of SM Jman enough to overwhelm him, I do believe it would be enough to cause great trouble to base Jman, specially when precog comes into the equation.

Something else to add, stamina wise.

Reactions: Like 5


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> As usual, no real counters to any of the good points brought up here.
> 
> Those posts should be disregarded.
> 
> ...



 If not his speed, at least his reactions in addition to his skill should be enough to overwhelm JMan in CQC. SM Jiraiya has no feats that come close to outclassing KCM Naruto in taijutsu while Kakashi kept up with a CQC expert who does and has Sharingan Genjutsu which forces Jiraiya to avoid eye contact and hampers his ability to react to Kakashi's attacks. By Jiraiya's affirmation, he believes that such is an impossible feat, so I can't really see Jiraiya doing anything against Kakashi to begin with unless he wants to be subdued by genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## X III (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> and the Sharingan which can be used in a multitude of ways which will be described later in this match-up.


I guarantee this is the only reason you're wanking Kakashi ITT. Either that, or a Kakashi stan managed to hack into your account. 




UchihaX28 said:


> The moment when I realize all my time has been wasted.


I do find it odd that a simple one-liner received more winner ratings than your entire post. I commend you for the hard work and dedication put into your post.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2019)

@UchihaX28 
By DB 4 jiriaya is referred to as a perfect sage 
He is also given frog katas
Which means his fight with pain is barely legit as human path would have died 

With frog katas he won’t have had an issue keeping it close in Taijutsu and ultimately beating the 3 without needing to retreat

As I doubt pain would figure out katas on first strike 

So most of the feats we are using to judge jiriaya aren’t perfectly clear as kishi changed his mind on jiriaya standing 

I mean we see Minato asking naruto to add Senjutsu to his rasengan only for him to go SM couple of chapters later 

When we know using kurama cloak makes it faster to gather sm


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Just what I expected. Bark, but no bite.


If I’m too give a vaguely serious response...

Your post is mostly fluff or irrelevant. There are also factual errors.

You’re posting things that happened in illusions and presenting them as real.

Your scan on Kakashi’s Kamui from the Databook says absolutely nothing about anything you said. It specifically says that Kakashi mastered The ocular technique of the MS, referring to Kamui in a singular manner. You then posted a scan of Sasuke’s fight with Danzo that directly contradicts your post where Obito refers to Sasuke defeating Danzo with his Uchiha genes while Danzo (the fake MS user) lost. At no point did anything say that Kakashi somehow became like a real Uchiha.

Base Gai is no match at all for Obito or KCM Naruto in a CQC fight. You can start a thread on it, it will be 90% of people arguing Naruto and Obito would neg him and 10% saying they win after a decent fight. There is a reason Gai barely survived a exchange that was only a few scans long in a 4v1 fight.

Kakashi did not fight the three Paths Jiraiya fought. Kakashi was instead killed by just two of them while one armed Jiraiya did as much damage fighting six. Kakashi would struggle to deal with Konan, and lose to an Animal Path/Konan combo in Jiraiya’s situation against Pein.

Kakashi did not successfully feint Itachi in PI. It was Itachi who had the upper hand in the exchange.

Kakashi only feinted Shoten Itachi rather than the real Itachi in PII, and only did it in a 4v1 fight.

Kakashi and Gai never fought Obito’s Six Paths at once. When they fought the Paths they did fight, they did it at full strength while KCM Naruto was noted to be gimped during the fight due to exhaustion. Bee meanwhile outperformed Kakashi and Gai.

Kakashi does not have the chakra to match Jiraiya and Gamabunta’s large scale Ninjutsu even if he tries to copy it anymore than one fodder Ninja would have held back Madara’s Katon with their Suiton in the war. Kakashi can no doubt hold his own and perhaps even beat base Jiraiya in a small scale Ninjutsu exchange, but when Jiraiya starts using larger Jutsu Kakashi will be forced onto the defensive creating the typical Kamui or bust situation.

SM Jiraiya uses multiple elements at once through his summons, Kakashi cannot match that at all regardless of element.

We have never seen Kakashi use Futon or Katon while we have seen Jiraiya and his summons use every element besides Raiton. Jiraiya wins regardless. If Kakashi uses Raiton Jiraiya and his summons use Futon, if Kakashi uses Katon Jiraiya and his summons use Suiton, if Kakashi uses Doton Jiraiya and his summons use a bigger Doton,  ifKakashi uses a Suiton Jiraiya and his summons use a Doton, and if Kakashi uses a Futon Jiraiya and his summons use a Katon. They can also use oil and power their attacks with Senjutsu.

Most of Jiraiya’s arsenal doesn’t use elements anyhow. Hari Jizo, giant toads, space time jutsu, clones, super strength, Frog Kata, Toad Esophagus, oil, Rasengansm and the Food Cart Destroyer have no elemental weakness.

Reactions: Like 4


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## X III (Apr 15, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> By DB 4 jiriaya is referred to as a perfect sage


Literally speaking, he isn't. The databook would be wrong in this case, as it's made evident in the Manga that he isn't perfect. Kishimoto does retcon things, but not this drastically.



Icegaze said:


> I mean we see Minato asking naruto to add Senjutsu to his rasengan only for him to go SM couple of chapters later
> 
> When we know using kurama cloak makes it faster to gather sm


Naruto was already in Sage Mode, so there was no harm in that. Minato also rarely uses Sage Mode because he doesn't believe himself to be a good one.


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## kokodeshide (Apr 15, 2019)

Just want to point out that in the War Arc, kakashi is literally 100% blind in his sharingan. Which is impressive in its own way, but still, no more precog.


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## Jad (Apr 15, 2019)

Kakashi surppassed the Sannin in the War. So I agree, Jiraiya can't beat MS Kakashi.

When Boruto era Kakashi comes along he'll probably even be stronger.


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## Icegaze (Apr 15, 2019)

X III said:


> Literally speaking, he isn't. The databook would be wrong in this case, as it's made evident in the Manga that he isn't perfect. Kishimoto does retcon things, but not this drastically.
> 
> 
> Naruto was already in Sage Mode, so there was no harm in that. Minato also rarely uses Sage Mode because he doesn't believe himself to be a good one.



Kishi does retcon things and he states jiriaya is so he is 
In fact even Minato admits sage mode is Jiraya thing despite Minato going SM in 1 panel and saying he is no good at it 

So yes kishi for sport retcon things and isn’t consistent at all 

Amaterasu showings illustrate his wishy washy plot writing style where by a jutsu is as strong or as useless as he needs it to be 

Also jiriaya is given frog katas in DB4 which means human path had no business not getting sucker punched by jiriaya


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 15, 2019)

Any one can beat anyone if we go on assumptions and all but if a standard potrayal or difference is cited by the authour he will write fight such that the better potrayed one wins

Reactions: Like 3


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## Android (Apr 15, 2019)

Yes. Kakashi CAN beat Jiraiya.

Just not more times than not.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Base Jiraiya I mean.


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## dergeist (Apr 15, 2019)

Technically Kakashi had the Sharingsn so it's Pseudo Uchiha wank, no?


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## Ishmael (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> What's this?! An UchihaX28 thread that isn't dedicated to Uchiha wanking? Who is he and what has he done to UchihaX28?
> 
> To preface, it seems as though people are constantly underrating Kakashi by denying any advantages Kakashi has in this match-up whilst simultaneously fabricating comparisons such as Jiraiya being faster with absolutely no basis. The purpose of this thread is for me to provide a thorough breakdown as to why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya. This is not a thread where you discuss your opinion on the matter because there's already another thread for that unless it directly pertains to the arguments that I'm presenting.
> 
> ...



You did something that I'm sure has granted you an automatic care to enter the golden gates above, God bless you uchiha and this beautiful post 


dergeist said:


> Technically Kakashi had the Sharingsn so it's Pseudo Uchiha wank, no?



Ahhh shit nevermind dude had a secret agenda this whole time, God damnit! Uchiha why can't you just quit with this wank for at least a day

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2019)

Bonly said:


> You should’ve known that as you was typing out all that fluff



I like how all the Jiraiya fans liked this post.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2019)

@UchihaX28

I respect the time you put into this and you clearly did a deep dive on Kakashi fighting style, but this is still wrong. And the reason it’s wrong is because it’s a misunderstanding of Jiraiya fighting style and how he approaches battle.

Kakashi reading Jiraiya seals and copying his techniques is pointless because 90% of his fighting style revolves around his summons or combos with them which Kakashi can’t copy. 

Kakashi using his superior speed or Genjutsu on Jiraiya seems primarily based on the fact that’s Jiraiya will be mixing it up in CQC with Kakashi. But that is also a misunderstanding of Jiraiya fighting style as he doesn’t engage in straight forward CQC. He’s actually a Mid/Long Range fighter primarily, only really engaging in CQC when setting up traps. So he isn’t likely to be in a range where speed will matter or forcing eye contact will be feasible. 

So if you want me to believe Kakashi can best Base Jiraiya (not even Sage), you need to explain how Kakashi can handle Jiraiya Long Range Jutsu, summons, and traps. None of which is mentioned in the opening. 

Kamui is Kamui and we can have a separate discussion about that, but first I’d like to see what you believe Kakashi can do without it against the above mentioned abilities of Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 4


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## JuicyG (Apr 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @UchihaX28
> 
> I respect the time you put into this and you clearly did a deep dive on Kakashi fighting style, but this is still wrong. And the reason it’s wrong is because it’s a misunderstanding of Jiraiya fighting style and how he approaches battle.
> 
> ...



Said exactly what was on my mind reading his post.


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 15, 2019)

Kamui GG


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## Tanto (Apr 15, 2019)

It's time for people to accept that Kakashi can beat Jiraiya


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## Azula (Apr 15, 2019)

Why is Kakashi fighting 6 paths who have their attention divided in 4 different people a positive point for him?

And even still he got kicked by the tail of one of the jins?

Jiraiya fought 3 paths with undivided attention and didn't get a scratch. Jiraiya fought 6 paths with undivided attention and still didn't get a scratch.

And on top of that the jins were only better than their past selves but Obito was also conserving chakra in their usage because he doesn't have as much as Nagato.

So that brings down the Edo jin paths in comparison to Nagato's 6 paths


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2019)

I will be addressing counterarguments either tonight or tomorrow. I have a long day at school since I only go to school twice a week, but I promise to respond to everything asap.


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## dergeist (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I will be addressing counterarguments either tonight or tomorrow. I have a long day at school since I only go to school twice a week, but I promise to respond to everything asap.


School in the holidays?


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 15, 2019)

dergeist said:


> School in the holidays?



Holidays? Im already 2 weeks out of Spring Break, but if it helps, I go to school in Tacoma.


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> What's this?! An UchihaX28 thread that isn't dedicated to Uchiha wanking? Who is he and what has he done to UchihaX28?
> 
> To preface, it seems as though people are constantly underrating Kakashi by denying any advantages Kakashi has in this match-up whilst simultaneously fabricating comparisons such as Jiraiya being faster with absolutely no basis. The purpose of this thread is for me to provide a thorough breakdown as to why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya. This is not a thread where you discuss your opinion on the matter because there's already another thread for that unless it directly pertains to the arguments that I'm presenting.
> 
> ...



I disagree with your conclusion but I respect the effort.

Reps.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Braiyan (Apr 15, 2019)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya fought 6 paths with undivided attention and still didn't get a scratch.




*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*

Reactions: Like 2


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## Azula (Apr 15, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> *Link Removed*






*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*


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## Braiyan (Apr 15, 2019)

Azula said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> *Link Removed*



I have never claimed that Kakashi faced Pain without getting a scratch, so I don't know why you're posting this scan.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Azula (Apr 15, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> I have never claimed that Kakashi faced Pain without getting a scratch, so I don't know why you're posting this scan.



And neither did I claim that Jiraiya can never be hit in closed off situations, just he didn't get hit by all 6 paths fighting together with Shared Vision. Kakashi did.


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## Braiyan (Apr 15, 2019)

Azula said:


> And neither did I claim that Jiraiya can never be hit in closed off situations, just he didn't get hit by all 6 paths fighting together with Shared Vision



You claimed Jiraiya fought all 6 paths with undivided attention and didn't get a scratch.

The scan I posted is exactly that situation: Jiraiya was fighting all 6 paths, tried to drag all in his barrier, only got one, and got stabbed. It's a direct rebuttal to your claim. And it's not the only one.


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## Symmetry (Apr 15, 2019)

Azula said:


> And neither did I claim that Jiraiya can never be hit in closed off situations, just he didn't get hit by all 6 paths fighting together with Shared Vision. Kakashi did.




Jiriya got speedblitzed by one path of pain

And jiriya got fucking died in the fight your staying

Yes he did get hit

If he didn’t he’d be alive


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## Artistwannabe (Apr 15, 2019)

@Santoryu where are you love?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2019)

JuicyG said:


> Said exactly what was on my mind reading his post.



Yeah, sure. 



Azula said:


> Why is Kakashi fighting 6 paths who have their attention divided in 4 different people a positive point for him?



Obito's Path? Its not like he was fighting Jinchuriki who had linked vision and prediction. 



> And even still he got kicked by the tail of one of the jins?



Come on, Azula, just say it. You think Jiraiya would do better against the Jinchuriki Paths. 



> Jiraiya fought 3 paths with undivided attention and didn't get a scratch. Jiraiya fought 6 paths with undivided attention and still didn't get a scratch.



You're right, with the 3 Paths he ran away and hoped that Nagato would underestimate him. With the 6 Paths, he was so pathetic that Deva Path didn't even need to use his power. Unless you're now going to tell us Fukasaku felt like having fun by not telling Konoha about Deva's power.  No wait, you actually suggest Jiraiya counters Amaterasu by being burnt by it, so I'm half expecting this. 

"Divided attention"- that's probably one of the most desperate arguments I've heard. This has never held back a user of Pain Rikudou.



> And on top of that the jins were only better than their past selves but Obito was also conserving chakra in their usage because he doesn't have as much as Nagato.



Obito was conserving chakra in their usage. lolwut? They still used Bijuu powers.



> So that brings down the Edo jin paths in comparison to Nagato's 6 paths



Yeah, no. Try again.




Turrin said:


> Kakashi reading Jiraiya seals and copying his techniques is pointless because 90% of his fighting style revolves around his summons or combos with them which Kakashi can’t copy.



Kakashi can still anticipate what is coming up.



> Kakashi using his superior speed or Genjutsu on Jiraiya seems primarily based on the fact that’s Jiraiya will be mixing it up in CQC with Kakashi. But that is also a misunderstanding of Jiraiya fighting style as he doesn’t engage in straight forward CQC. He’s actually a Mid/Long Range fighter primarily, only really engaging in CQC when setting up traps. So he isn’t likely to be in a range where speed will matter or forcing eye contact will be feasible.



What is funny is that while talking about Jiraiya's fighting style, you completely neglected Kakashi's. 



> So if you want me to believe Kakashi can best Base Jiraiya (not even Sage), you need to explain how Kakashi can handle Jiraiya Long Range Jutsu, summons, and traps. None of which is mentioned in the opening.



You must have some long range jutsu in mind. 
Traps, that's rubbish- that's like saying you should explain how Jiraiya deals with Kakahsi's traps.

The summons are the only valid point you have, even then, we've never seen them used against one guy. And if you think Jiraiya does that, then you're obviously thinking of the wrong Sannin.



> Kamui is Kamui and we can have a separate discussion about that, but first I’d like to see what you believe Kakashi can do without it against the above mentioned abilities of Jiraiya



Kamui is Kamui and this as good as you saying you don't know how Jiraiya deals with it. You could pull a JuicyG and say "but, but Kakashi isn't allowed to!!".

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yeah, sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did he touch you; answer that and I’ll respond seriously to your points. Otherwise I’m not going to bother with someone who is clearly just hating on a single character


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Where did he touch you; answer that and I’ll respond



The same place Itachi touched you. Did Itachi step out of line when he introduced fire?


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The same place Itachi touched you. Did Itachi step out of line when he introduced fire?


Dude I rate Itachi higher then you do lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude I rate Itachi higher then you do lol



I doubt that, especially if you think Jiraiya can take him.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 15, 2019)

E for effort I guess


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I doubt that, especially if you think Jiraiya can take him.


I think Jiraiya can draw with a Sick Itachi; and looses to Healthy Itachi. I’m pretty sure you place Pain above Itachi, while I think Itachi would beat Pain more often then not. Just to name one example


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I think Jiraiya can draw with a Sick Itachi; and looses to Healthy Itachi. I’m pretty sure you place Pain above Itachi, while I think Itachi would beat Pain more often then not. Just to name one example



Even a sick Itachi showed the abilities to defeat Jiraiya. 

I place Pain above Itachi because the manga made that clear. You putting Itachi above Pain is just you reaching faulty conclusions, like assuming Jiraiya can draw with a sick Itachi. Do you still believe Oro would lose to Jiraiya?


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## Azula (Apr 15, 2019)

Braiyan said:


> You claimed Jiraiya fought all 6 paths with undivided attention and didn't get a scratch.
> 
> The scan I posted is exactly that situation: Jiraiya was fighting all 6 paths, tried to drag all in his barrier, only got one, and got stabbed. It's a direct rebuttal to your claim. And it's not the only one.



Jiraiya was hit inside the barrier which is literally a closed off prison.

If he was successfully hit _*outside he would have been captured.*_


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## Symmetry (Apr 15, 2019)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya was hit inside the barrier which is literally a closed off prison.
> 
> If he was successfully hit _*outside he would have been captured.*_




He died

He literally died when he went back out so idk what your talking about

The situation your describing happened but even worse. He got manhandled


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Even a sick Itachi showed the abilities to defeat Jiraiya.
> 
> I place Pain above Itachi because the manga made that clear. You putting Itachi above Pain is just you reaching faulty conclusions, like assuming Jiraiya can draw with a sick Itachi. Do you still believe Oro would lose to Jiraiya?


So basically I rate Itachi higher then you, k moving on...


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## Speedyamell (Apr 15, 2019)

Reps for research and presentation!!
I do believe jiraiya is the superior shinobi tho

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mithos (Apr 15, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> He died
> 
> He literally died when he went back out so idk what your talking about
> 
> The situation your describing happened but even worse. He got manhandled



Jiraiya deactivated Sage Mode because he opted to sacrifice himself to confirm a critical theory about Pain's abilities rather than escape. So, obviously he got jumped.

I believe the point @Azula is making is that prior to dragging Animal Path into the _Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison_, and prior to emerging without Sage Mode, Jiraiya managed to take on all Six Paths of Pain off-panel, and was seemingly not injured during that time.

I believe it's that point of time that Kakashi references when it calls it "crazy" that Jiraiya took on all six paths at once.


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## ThomasTheCat (Apr 15, 2019)

I think can Kakashi _can _beat Jiraiya, but not as well as _you_ think he can. I really do enjoy these more thought-out posts, even if I don't agree with them all the way. It's a nice change from snappy one-liners (not saying I don't do that btw)

It's honestly still funny to me how people see Kakashi as a stamina noob despite how much he could do with an unnatural MS


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## X III (Apr 15, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> Kishi does retcon things and he states jiriaya is so he is


The Manga precedes the databook. If there is a contradiction between the two, the Manga is chosen as it's the source material. The statement in the databook can also be taken in a different way. Toad Hermit is not only a form, but also Jiraiya's title. If we were to interpret the databook in a way that causes no contradiction between itself and the Manga, we should go by that interpretation.



Icegaze said:


> In fact even Minato admits sage mode is Jiraya thing despite Minato going SM in 1 panel and saying he is no good at it


Minato stood still collecting nature energy for some time. Minato's reasoning for being a bad Sage was that it took him a long time to build up the Chakra, and he can't maintain it for long. From what we've seen, Minato's reasoning is correct. 



Icegaze said:


> So yes kishi for sport retcon things and isn’t consistent at all
> 
> Amaterasu showings illustrate his wishy washy plot writing style where by a jutsu is as strong or as useless as he needs it to be


You're right, but there's a difference between inconsistent showings on a single Jutsu and upgrading an entire form. It'd be more like changing Hebi Sasuke's Katon into the Katon of Madara and Obito.



Icegaze said:


> Also jiriaya is given frog katas in DB4 which means human path had no business not getting sucker punched by jiriaya


The simple answer is that Jiraiya was using Frog Kata. Frog Kata isn't limited only to ghost punches. When Fukasaku and Naruto trained in Frog Kata, they made contact with each other during their midair battle plenty of times. "Frog Strike" which is the ability Naruto used on Son Goku, is also listed as a Taijutsu of Frog Kata, meaning it's a Frog Kata Technique. This only means that Jiraiya either doesn't have ghost punches, or isn't efficient at them.


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## ThomasTheCat (Apr 15, 2019)

X III said:


> Son Goku


I forget he's a Bijuu a lot and I'm like "wait wtf " every single time


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## Symmetry (Apr 15, 2019)

Matto said:


> Jiraiya deactivated Sage Mode because he opted to sacrifice himself to confirm a critical theory about Pain's abilities rather than escape. So, obviously he got jumped.
> 
> I believe the point @Azula is making is that prior to dragging Animal Path into the _Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison_, and prior to emerging without Sage Mode, Jiraiya managed to take on all Six Paths of Pain off-panel, and was seemingly not injured during that time.
> 
> I believe it's that point of time that Kakashi references when it calls it "crazy" that Jiraiya took on all six paths at once.




So if SM jiriya couldn’t be touched by them

Why would he deactivate it? He could have just gone back out with sage goodness that allarnetly makes him impossible to hit, figure out their real identity and leave


Or maybe Jman knew that even in SM he couldn’t win, and didn’t want to kill the great sage toads with him.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 15, 2019)

I just don't see it, nope


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## Mithos (Apr 16, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> So if SM jiriya couldn’t be touched by them
> 
> Why would he deactivate it? He could have just gone back out with sage goodness that allarnetly makes him impossible to hit, figure out their real identity and leave
> 
> ...



No one is saying that he couldn't be touched by them or that he would win. He was obviously fighting a losing battle, and he knew that. But he still put up one hell of a fight despite the odds, which is why Nagato, Fukasaku, Zetsu, and Kakashi all praised his performance. A better performance than Kakashi could have done.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Apr 16, 2019)

X III said:


> The Manga precedes the databook. If there is a contradiction between the two, the Manga is chosen as it's the source material. The statement in the databook can also be taken in a different way. Toad Hermit is not only a form, but also Jiraiya's title. If we were to interpret the databook in a way that causes no contradiction between itself and the Manga, we should go by that interpretation.
> 
> 
> Minato stood still collecting nature energy for some time. Minato's reasoning for being a bad Sage was that it took him a long time to build up the Chakra, and he can't maintain it for long. From what we've seen, Minato's reasoning is correct.
> ...




Or simple reasoning if jiriaya used them and he took one of them out by the time naruto used it the surprise factor would have been gone 

I mean we have Samehada who couldn’t absorb Asuma Hien in part 1 yet at the same distance got rid of killer bee raiton chakra 

Source material bla bla ... they are both written by the same person


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## X III (Apr 16, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> Or simple reasoning if jiriaya used them and he took one of them out by the time naruto used it the surprise factor would have been gone


Jiraiya, at that point in time, was set in defeating Pain. There would've been no reason to not use a trump card.



Icegaze said:


> I mean we have Samehada who couldn’t absorb Asuma Hien in part 1 yet at the same distance got rid of killer bee raiton chakra


It's not that it couldn't absorb it. It's just that the Chakra was nowhere near Samehada.



Icegaze said:


> Source material bla bla ... they are both written by the same person


They are, but the databook is still taken as second towards the Manga.


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## Mad Scientist (Apr 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> What's this?! An UchihaX28 thread that isn't dedicated to Uchiha wanking? Who is he and what has he done to UchihaX28?
> 
> To preface, it seems as though people are constantly underrating Kakashi by denying any advantages Kakashi has in this match-up whilst simultaneously fabricating comparisons such as Jiraiya being faster with absolutely no basis. The purpose of this thread is for me to provide a thorough breakdown as to why Kakashi can beat Jiraiya. This is not a thread where you discuss your opinion on the matter because there's already another thread for that unless it directly pertains to the arguments that I'm presenting.
> 
> ...



Dude this was amazing!

Your points were extremely well presented, developed, and laced with evidence that directly corresponds to your points. Not only that, but you can clearly write at a very high level.

I've read some of the opposing arguments, and while there's some good effort in some rebuttals (and terrible effort in others), they're just not up to par with the points made in your posts, nor are they actually tackling your points effectively.

I suppose there are a tiny amount of things I might have to play Devil's Advocate with (later), but otherwise it was an excellent, brilliant post.

Keep it up!


Oh, and let's have a toast, shall we?

​

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mad Scientist (Apr 16, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> I just don't see it, nope



DEAL WITH IT
​

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> I just don't see it, nope



 Okay, and did you read it or were you busy looking at the pretty pictures in my post?


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## Symmetry (Apr 16, 2019)

Matto said:


> No one is saying that he couldn't be touched by them or that he would win. He was obviously fighting a losing battle, and he knew that. But he still put up one hell of a fight despite the odds, which is why Nagato, Fukasaku, Zetsu, and Kakashi all praised his performance. A better performance than Kakashi could have done.




I 100 percent agree kakashi would not do as well as Jman

But it’s a misconception that Jman took on all 6 as he did not.

The original poster I replied to (azula I think) was trying to say that SM Jiriya would not be touched by all six paths which is a huge jiriya wank.


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## Braiyan (Apr 16, 2019)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya was hit inside the barrier which is literally a closed off prison.



Cool. And it was under the situation of him fighting all 6 Paths, as stated by Jiraiya himself. So do you now realise how inaccurate it is to say he faced all 6 without getting a scratch?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya was hit inside the barrier which is literally a closed off prison.
> 
> If he was successfully hit _*outside he would have been captured.*_



He still failed to capture all 6... sounds like someone was trying sneak attacks because he was in no fighting condition.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So basically I rate Itachi higher then you, k moving on...



Yes, somehow you achieved the impossible: coming up with bad arguments for Jiraiya _*and *_Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Your scan on Kakashi’s Kamui from the Databook says absolutely nothing about anything you said. It specifically says that Kakashi mastered The ocular technique of the MS, referring to Kamui in a singular manner. You then posted a scan of Sasuke’s fight with Danzo that directly contradicts your post where Obito refers to Sasuke defeating Danzo with his Uchiha genes while Danzo (the fake MS user) lost. At no point did anything say that Kakashi somehow became like a real Uchiha.



 No it's not. Kishimoto generally uses quotations around specific jutsu to refer to exactly what he was talking about and the Mangekyo Sharingan is classified as its own jutsu and has its own entry within the Databook. The ocular technique of the Mangekyo Sharingan refers to his ability to use the Mangekyo Sharingan and his ability to clash with some of the best Uchiha in existence and have comparably good eyes even compared to EMS Sasuke according to Madara cements this. My scan was to illustrate how someone mastered the Sharingan has a notable advantage against someone who does not. Sasuke being an Uchiha was referenced because being an Uchiha was required for mastering the Sharingan until Kakashi arrived.

 Unlike Danzo who was vulnerable to Sharingan Genjutsu (even for an instant), Kakashi clashed with Obito as his equal just like Sasuke did with Itachi in terms of genjutsu. The situations parallel each-other.



> Base Gai is no match at all for Obito or KCM Naruto in a CQC fight. You can start a thread on it, it will be 90% of people arguing Naruto and Obito would neg him and 10% saying they win after a decent fight. There is a reason Gai barely survived a exchange that was only a few scans long in a 4v1 fight.



 In taijutsu, yes he is. If we're referring to their overall capabilities, then obviously KCM Naruto wins, but strip away any chakra supported abilities and Base Gai wins. You denying it and making an arbitrary match-up does not contradict what happened in canon. KCM Naruto was nearly one-panel while Base Gai clashed with Obito and deflected a blindside attack from him without even looking. Kakashi can compete with this guy and has speed that matches his when using the 6th Gates which clearly means that Kakashi is superior to KCM Naruto let alone Jiraiya in CQC. Factor in Genjutsu and the gap between two increases as Jiraiya is forced to avoid eye contact whilst simultaneously reacting to attacks that he no longer can see which Jiraiya mentioned was impossible.



> Kakashi did not fight the three Paths Jiraiya fought. Kakashi was instead killed by just two of them while one armed Jiraiya did as much damage fighting six. Kakashi would struggle to deal with Konan, and lose to an Animal Path/Konan combo in Jiraiya’s situation against Pein.



 You're overrating Jiraiya's performance. Jiraiya attempted to fight each one individually yet couldn't land a single hit on them. The only reason he won is because he retreated because he was blatantly inferior, had location as an advantage, and the fact that Jiraiya even stated that Pain left his guard down. In contrast, Kakashi fought against the strongest Pain who is much stronger than the rest of the Paths alongside Asura Path and nearly killed him. War Arc Kakashi is stronger and with more liberal usage of Kamui, there's no reason why he couldn't have taken both out. Even in the Pain Arc, had he not been concerned with protecting Choji, he could've warped Pain's head off and he would've taken down Asura Path and the strongest Pain without being forced to retreat.



> Kakashi did not successfully feint Itachi in PI. It was Itachi who had the upper hand in the exchange.
> 
> Kakashi only feinted Shoten Itachi rather than the real Itachi in PII, and only did it in a 4v1 fight.



 P1 Kakashi almost landed an underwater attack on Itachi yet couldn't because he was forced to protect Kurenai who was oblivious as to what was happening. This doesn't discredit the fact that Itachi needed the Mangekyo in order to be superior to Kakashi as before, Kakashi countered Itachi's jutsu and Itachi even admitted that resistance could be made unless he were to use the Mangekyo. Itachi had no reason to exhaust himself by using Tsukuyomi yet he did against Kakashi. It's pretty obvious as to why.

 I'm certain the Databook states that Shoten Itachi and Shoten Kisame both had their physical capabilities intact. The only issue is the amount of chakra they could use for jutsu and the fact that Itachi couldn't use the Mangekyo which is why Kakashi literally defeated him.



> Kakashi and Gai never fought Obito’s Six Paths at once. When they fought the Paths they did fight, they did it at full strength while KCM Naruto was noted to be gimped during the fight due to exhaustion. Bee meanwhile outperformed Kakashi and Gai.



 That's not true. It was explicitly stated that Kurama was no longer sapping his chakra and he certainly wasn't tired against Obito (when Gai outperformed him) after cooperating with Kurama and thus, has an endless supply of his chakra.



> Kakashi does not have the chakra to match Jiraiya and Gamabunta’s large scale Ninjutsu even if he tries to copy it anymore than one fodder Ninja would have held back Madara’s Katon with their Suiton in the war. Kakashi can no doubt hold his own and perhaps even beat base Jiraiya in a small scale Ninjutsu exchange, but when Jiraiya starts using larger Jutsu Kakashi will be forced onto the defensive creating the typical Kamui or bust situation.
> 
> SM Jiraiya uses multiple elements at once through his summons, Kakashi cannot match that at all regardless of element.



 Cool, he counters Boss Summons and as stated before, he is faster and has the ability to preempt his attacks and counter-attack before Jiraiya even launches a jutsu.



> We have never seen Kakashi use Futon or Katon while we have seen Jiraiya and his summons use every element besides Raiton. Jiraiya wins regardless. If Kakashi uses Raiton Jiraiya and his summons use Futon, if Kakashi uses Katon Jiraiya and his summons use Suiton, if Kakashi uses Doton Jiraiya and his summons use a bigger Doton,  ifKakashi uses a Suiton Jiraiya and his summons use a Doton, and if Kakashi uses a Futon Jiraiya and his summons use a Katon. They can also use oil and power their attacks with Senjutsu.



 I didn't know Jiraiya was the tactician and could preempt his attacks. You're automatically assuming that Kakashi will be making the first move when in actuality, he's a tactician that exceeds P1 Shikamaru in strategy who can plan 200 moves in advance. Kakashi will be the one planning ahead and predicting all of Jiraiya's moves, not Jiraiya.



> Most of Jiraiya’s arsenal doesn’t use elements anyhow. Hari Jizo, giant toads, space time jutsu, clones, super strength, Frog Kata, Toad Esophagus, oil, Rasengansm and the Food Cart Destroyer have no elemental weakness.




Hari Jizo was countered by a simple Kawarimi by Animal Path.
S/T ninjutsu is countered by Kamui.
Clones are countered by a superior bunshin user.
Super Strength doesn't matter. Raikage was much stronger than Sasuke yet his superior reaction speed enabled him to outperform him. Good thing SM Jiraiya can't tank a Raikiri or Raiden.
If Jiraiya uses Toad Oil, Kakashi preempts it and takes advantage of it by using Katon.
Kakashi can literally outmaneuver Jiraiya and strike him Raiden. If not, Kakashi has the feats necessary to warp Rasengan away (especially Oodama Rasengan) and warp it back at Jiraiya considering how he warped Naruto's Rasengan onto Obito and warped away a BM Naruto clone without Obito even noticing and don't tell me that Jiraiya's reaction speed is on par with Obito's.
Food Cart Destroyer has only been effective on large targets or fodder like Zetsu. Even so, if Jiraiya attempts a Kuchiyose, that leaves Kakashi with an opening to employ a bunshin feint strategy or warp his head off as Kamui was fast enough to warp away Sasuke's Susano'o Arrows.


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## Shazam (Apr 16, 2019)

Kakashi doesn't beat Jiraiya.

The best convincing evidence for this is to re-read the manga starting at chapter 1. If you have anyways troubles understanding what is going on, feel free to message me, I can help read the passages slowly to give a better understanding.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi doesn't beat Jiraiya.
> 
> The best convincing evidence for this is to re-read the manga starting at chapter 1. If you have anyways troubles understanding what is going on, feel free to message me, I can help read the passages slowly to give a better understanding.



 Too bad Kakashi's portrayal in Part 1 is eclipsed by his portrayal in Part 2. I hope you do know that the author's perspective changes as he continued developing the manga. This is literally why Kakashi went from passing out after using the Sharingan to using multiple jutsu w/ the Sharingan in addition to Kamui multiple times throughout the war without his body collapsing.


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## Shazam (Apr 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Too bad Kakashi's portrayal in Part 1 is eclipsed by his portrayal in Part 2. I hope you do know that the author's perspective changes as he continued developing the manga. This is literally why Kakashi went from passing out after using the Sharingan to using multiple jutsu w/ the Sharingan in addition to Kamui multiple times throughout the war without his body collapsing.



I can't help you at this point, you're in too deep, start here and move your way forward again.


*Spoiler*: _iLi_ 



Kakashi did improve throughout the series, but that doesn't suddenly mean he's beating Jiraiya now. Lets start with how Kakashi would even deal with Summons and AoEs


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## Omote (Apr 16, 2019)

"hey, Kakashi is complete garbage to Jiraiya. Let's forget everything past the pain arc happened to prove my point"

Will Sannin fans keep making threads Kakashi and Jiraiya lose in to prove a mythical point? Find out next time on NBD

Reactions: Like 4


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## Shazam (Apr 16, 2019)

Omote said:


> "hey, Kakashi is complete garbage to Jiraiya. Let's forget everything past the pain arc happened to prove my point"
> 
> Will Sannin fans keep making threads Kakashi and Jiraiya lose in to prove a mythical point? Find out next time on NBD



Nothing can ever be proven to Omote, he knows everything and shuns everything that goes against those thoughts of his.

You might benefit from this as well. When you get to the last one, you can come back.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I can't help you at this point, you're in too deep, start here and move your way forward again.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _iLi_
> ...






I already addressed this.

Quick question, how does Jiraiya counter Kamui and genjutsu?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Kakashi did improve throughout the series, but that doesn't suddenly mean he's beating Jiraiya now. Lets start with how Kakashi would even deal with Summons and AoEs[/SPOILER]



And this ninja said he didn't make a bunch of threads in reaction to people saying Kakashi>Jiraiya.


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## Shazam (Apr 16, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I already addressed this.
> 
> Quick question, how does Jiraiya counter Kamui and genjutsu?



What you considered as "addressing it" was more like a deflection post on the most important aspects of the fight. 

What are Kakashi's genjutsu feints again, and against whom? 

Kamui is a last effort jutsu. Jiraiya finishes him prior.


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## Shazam (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And this ninja said he didn't make a bunch of threads in reaction to people saying Kakashi>Jiraiya.



Whatever floats your boat boy. As long as it makes you happy


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2019)

Shazam said:


> What you considered as "addressing it" was more like a deflection post on the most important aspects of the fight.
> 
> What are Kakashi's genjutsu feints again, and against whom?
> 
> Kamui is a last effort jutsu. Jiraiya finishes him prior.



 Reread my novel, then come back to me with more questions.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Whatever floats your boat boy. As long as it makes you happy



Yes, Shazam, seeing you make threads every time [insert character name]>Jiraiya makes be very happy.


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## Shazam (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, Shazam, seeing you make threads every time [insert character name]>Jiraiya makes be very happy.



Well good for you!


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yes, somehow you achieved the impossible: coming up with bad arguments for Jiraiya _*and *_Itachi.


Yeah accounting for a character being handicapped by terminal illness; wow what a crazy argument...


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2019)

@UchihaX28 

Why haven’t you addressed my questions


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah accounting for a character being handicapped by terminal illness; wow what a crazy argument...



Nah, its you keeping that silly "Jiraiya = Itachi" alive in some form.


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## Mithos (Apr 16, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> But it’s a misconception that Jman took on all 6 as he did not.



He did, and it's not debatable.

We saw him about to face off against all Six Paths. Then after Jiraiya emerges from the Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison, we can see that the environment is in worse disrepair, indicating combat had happened. Then after Fukasaku briefed Tsunade and Kakashi on what happened in Amegakure, Kakashi states that it's crazy that Jiriaya took on all six at once.

We don't know how long the 1 vs 6 battle was, nor do we know what went down during that time, but we were told that it happened and characters' reactions to it were meant to indicate to readers that we are meant to see it as impressive on Jiraiya's part.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JayK (Apr 16, 2019)

Matto said:


> We don't know how long the 1 vs 6 battle was, nor do we know what went down during that time, but we were told that it happened and characters' reactions to it were meant to indicate to readers that we are meant to see it as impressive on Jiraiya's part.



We don't know anything but it did happen because I say so!


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## Mithos (Apr 16, 2019)

JayK said:


> We don't know anything but it did happen because I say so!





Matto said:


> we can see that the environment is in worse disrepair, indicating combat had happened. Then after Fukasaku briefed Tsunade and Kakashi on what happened in Amegakure, Kakashi states that it's crazy that Jiriaya took on all six at once.



No, Fukasaku and Kakashi say so.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nah, its you keeping that silly "Jiraiya = Itachi" alive in some form.


Or maybe it’s just having the ability to read then chapters after the Sasuke fight that tell us Itachi was ill


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Matto said:


> He did, and it's not debatable.



It is when you are trying to imply he took them head on and ignore the fact he had *no intel *on Deva's powers. 



> We saw him about to face off against all Six Paths. Then after Jiraiya emerges from the Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison, we can see that the environment is in worse disrepair, indicating combat had happened. Then after Fukasaku briefed Tsunade and Kakashi on what happened in Amegakure, Kakashi states that it's crazy that Jiriaya took on all six at once.
> 
> We don't know how long the 1 vs 6 battle was, nor do we know what went down during that time, but we were told that it happened and characters' reactions to it were meant to indicate to readers that we are meant to see it as impressive on Jiraiya's part.



We saw him reacting to 6 Paths jumping him and then he tricked Pain into the barrier. He said he failed because he only got one body in with Fukasaku saying the barrier *trap *won't work a second time and if he goes out, he's finished. 

Tsunade can punch it away when it comes in contact with her
Tsunade can punch it away when it comes in contact with her

Doesn't sound like it was a long battle like you implied. 

If he was so impressive, then fighting 5 bodies instead of 6 should've been easy... and he'd know about Deva's power. 

Funny how Jiraiya fans miss a lot of details.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mithos (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Doesn't sound like it was a long battle like you implied.



I implied no such thing. 

I provided evidence that there was a skirmish 1 vs 6, and that regardless of what happened during that time, Kishi wants us to believe it was impressive on Jiraiya's part (based on _several _characters praising Jiraiya).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Or maybe it’s just having the ability to read then chapters after the Sasuke fight that tell us Itachi was ill



Or maybe you still refuse to let go of "Itachi = Jiraiya". I was with you at some point with that nonsense, but after looking at all the chapters, including Itachi's reason to lie, I had to reconsider given the mountains of evidence. Why you can't accept Itachi > Jiraiya, whether he is sick or not, I dunno. 

Tbh, the fact Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu or Susnaoo on Jiraiya when he fled alongside the fact Kisame was questioning Itachi's need to retreat proves it. And the statement yourself and others cling on is a lie; Kisame made a big deal about the Sannin rep which Itachi used to make his statement. He neglected to mention he defeated the strongest Sannin... 

Itachi>Jiraiya, dude. If you prefer: healthy Itachi>sick Itachi>Jiraiya.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Matto said:


> I implied no such thing.
> 
> I provided evidence that there was a skirmish 1 vs 6, and that regardless of what happened during that time, Kishi wants us to believe it was impressive on Jiraiya's part (based on _several _characters praising Jiraiya).



Of course you did, you implied he fought so well and it should reflect on Jiraiya's ability. Kishi wants us to believe Jiraiya was helpless and used trickery to get one of the bodies hence in the databook Jiraiya was said to be in no fighting condition and why Kishi himself had Fukasaku and Jiraiya say those things I pointed out -- the details you chose to ignore. 

The fact you're going with sketchy reasoning and ignoring the actual combatants during the actual battle is very telling.


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## Mithos (Apr 16, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Of course you did, you implied he fought so well and it should reflect on Jiraiya's ability. Kishi wants us to believe Jiraiya was helpless and used trickery to get one of the bodies hence in the databook Jiraiya was said to be in no fighting condition and why Kishi himself had Fukasaku and Jiraiya say those things I pointed out -- the details you chose to ignore.
> 
> The fact you're going with sketchy reasoning and ignoring the actual combatants during the actual battle is very telling.



Of course he used trickery. I don't expect Jiraiya to face them head-on in direct combat 1 vs 6. Evading and using trickery is still fighting.

It's not just me implying he fought so well that it should reflect on Jiraiya's ability; his performance is repeatedly lauded by _multiple _characters: Nagato, Zetsu, Fukasaku, and Kakashi (the latter specifically around fighting 1 vs 6). This is not my opinion that Jiraiya fared well despite his circumstances; it's the explicit opinion of the author as portrayed through _several _characters.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 16, 2019)

Matto said:


> Of course he used trickery. I don't expect Jiraiya to face them head-on in direct combat 1 vs 6. Evading and using trickery is still fighting.



At least _now _you're clear instead of being misleading. And no, it isn't impressive. What is impressive is what Naruto did where even Pain couldn't help but compliment him. And as for characters like Kakashi who say "how did Jiraiya fight 6", we know the deal, he didn't and he resorted to trickery without even having the central Pain use its powers.



> It's not just me implying he fought so well that it should reflect on Jiraiya's ability; his performance is repeatedly lauded by _multiple _characters: Nagato, Zetsu, Fukasaku, and Kakashi (the latter specifically around fighting 1 vs 6). This is not my opinion that Jiraiya fared well despite his circumstances; it's the explicit opinion of the author as portrayed through _several _characters.



Except you fail to interpret them in context. 

Nagato: Jiraiya could have won the battle if things went exactly the same except if he knew the secret while Nagato underestimated the Genjutsu.

Zetsu: Jiraiya would have something up his sleeve, but as we saw later he never expected Pain to lose- not even to Jiraiya.

Fukasaku: he fought well, not "ZOMG he fought well against all 6 bodies with his amazing abilities"

Kakashi: he was surprised Jiraiya fought 6. What he did not know, Jiraiya did not fight six like he was fighting 2 and one of those bodies he was fighting (Deva) did not even use its powers against Jiraiya. 

This _*is *_your opinion because you're misrepresenting things. Especially with the Kakashi part. So no, Jiraiya did not use amazing abilities to fight all 6, otherwise fighting 5 bodies would've been no issue. The whole thing was meant to show how powerful Pain is which is why Naruto defeating Pain was such a big deal.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JayK (Apr 16, 2019)

Matto said:


> No, Fukasaku and Kakashi say so.



Kakashi just said what Fukasaku told him.

And I mean Jiraiya technically did fight all 6 paths at once, he just so happened to get absolutely stomped as soon as he did.

What *might have happened off panel* is fanfiction.

Also thanks for the neg, so much asshurt.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @UchihaX28
> 
> Why haven’t you addressed my questions



I will. I'm busy with school and have to work a full closing shift for the night, but I will hopefully address them tomorrow morning.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Or maybe you still refuse to let go of "Itachi = Jiraiya". I was with you at some point with that nonsense, but after looking at all the chapters, including Itachi's reason to lie, I had to reconsider given the mountains of evidence. Why you can't accept Itachi > Jiraiya, whether he is sick or not, I dunno.
> 
> Tbh, the fact Itachi didn't use Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu or Susnaoo on Jiraiya when he fled alongside the fact Kisame was questioning Itachi's need to retreat proves it. And the statement yourself and others cling on is a lie; Kisame made a big deal about the Sannin rep which Itachi used to make his statement. He neglected to mention he defeated the strongest Sannin...
> 
> Itachi>Jiraiya, dude. If you prefer: healthy Itachi>sick Itachi>Jiraiya.


The fact that you also clearly hate on Jiraiya these days makes me not want to discuss the character with you. But why don’t you tell me who you think Sick Itachi looses to that Healthy Itachi beats? 

I don’t think you have anyone in mind, which should tell you your not accounting for his illness properly


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## Sufex (Apr 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The fact that you also clearly hate on Jiraiya these days makes me not want to discuss the character with you.


With all the crazy shit you say
 how can you of all people say this?


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> With all the crazy shit you say
> how can you of all people say this?


Because I don’t hate on any character...


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## Sufex (Apr 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because I don’t hate on any character...


Maybe not but you did spend a 10 page thread downplaying literally every low kage against kimmimaro


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Maybe not bit you did spend a 10 page thread downplaying literally every low kage against kimmimaro


And I think people spent 10 pages downplaying Kimimaro


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

this thread ignores jiraiya was gimped for the benefit of naruto
3 things which can change the out come of an encounter were taken from jiriaya 
frog call, frog katas and sensing 

in regards to being able to enter sage mode, if we assume both want to kill each other from the get go. note kakashi has to muster chakra into his eye before using kamui, we see this against deidara all the way through till against obito

if jiraiya could easily escape rinnegan why do we assume he cant do the same for kakashi? 

Kakashi kamui by pain arc was good enough to 1 shot already yet, believing jiraiya took all 6 at once wasnt something kakashi felt he could do despite NBD kamui GG

which has happened about as often as a kunai killing a main hero


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> No it's not. Kishimoto generally uses quotations around specific jutsu to refer to exactly what he was talking about and the Mangekyo Sharingan is classified as its own jutsu and has its own entry within the Databook. The ocular technique of the Mangekyo Sharingan refers to his ability to use the Mangekyo Sharingan and his ability to clash with some of the best Uchiha in existence and have comparably good eyes even compared to EMS Sasuke according to Madara cements this. My scan was to illustrate how someone mastered the Sharingan has a notable advantage against someone who does not. Sasuke being an Uchiha was referenced because being an Uchiha was required for mastering the Sharingan until Kakashi arrived.
> 
> Unlike Danzo who was vulnerable to Sharingan Genjutsu (even for an instant), Kakashi clashed with Obito as his equal just like Sasuke did with Itachi in terms of genjutsu. The situations parallel each-other.
> 
> ...



kakashi hasnt shown katon though
one could say jman wins in taijutsu by using frog katas and ghost punches kakashi. he cant avoid what he cant see


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## JayK (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> this thread ignores jiraiya was gimped for the benefit of naruto


You mean Pain was gimped for the benefit of Naruto lmao

Pain literally started fighting with a single Path against Jiraiya, essentially giving him all the time needed to enter SM.

Hell, even after finishing the SM transformation Pain still decided to fight with no more than 3 Paths.

And then there is still Deva who didn't use any of his abilities whatsoever, hence the only Paths even fighting to their fullest were Animal and Preta Path.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi hasnt shown katon though
> one could say jman wins in taijutsu by using frog katas and ghost punches kakashi. he cant avoid what he cant see



Databook confirms he can use all five elemental natures.

Kakashi's superior speed as proven in my novel suggests that Jiraiya will be the one on the defensive, so initiating Frog Katas will be next to impossible. That's not even mentioning that SM Naruto only overpowered Pain with Frog Katas once and never again after Pain adapted.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 17, 2019)

@Turrin 

I'll refute your argument tonight cuz I'm at school and on mobile and I will need my desktop to dig up scans to properly address your post.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Databook confirms he can use all five elemental natures.
> 
> Kakashi's superior speed as proven in my novel suggests that Jiraiya will be the one on the defensive, so initiating Frog Katas will be next to impossible. That's not even mentioning that SM Naruto only overpowered Pain with Frog Katas once and never again after Pain adapted.



databook confirms jiriaya can use frog katas. 
jiriaya only needs to hit kakashi once with it though. odd pretty sure you have discounted jiriaya using frog katas because he didnt show it. 

kakashi has superior speed i dont doubt that. in fact so much so that jiriaya would opt for Sm off the bat. and we know superior speed isnt auto win against SM. see A3 v SM naruto. Lets not forget frog call that stops kakashi in his tracks. kakashi single only tool against jiriaya that is of threat is kamui. 

not going to claim jiriaya somehow cant be hit by it. but that so far has been unsuccessful during 700 chapters of manga. FCD has been 100% successful just saying

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

JayK said:


> You mean Pain was gimped for the benefit of Naruto lmao
> 
> Pain literally started fighting with a single Path against Jiraiya, essentially giving him all the time needed to enter SM.
> 
> ...



jiriaya was as well. no frog call or frog katas or sensing. i dont doubt pain was gimped we know this as fact. i am saying jiriaya was as well 

again you are saying things i know, this doesnt stop the fact that
1. frog call wasnt used
2. jiriaya magically didnt have sensing
3. human path would have died if frog katas wasnt being hidden for naruto benefit

also note: using 3 then all 6 is a whole lot more effective as a battle strategy then 6 from the get go. as essentially jiriaya had to fight 9 people overall. it also allowed the diversion which ripped his arm

6 from the off set would have been more obvious that the real nagato wasnt there which means even if frog song ever worked, his guard wouldnt have dropped


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> databook confirms jiriaya can use frog katas.
> jiriaya only needs to hit kakashi once with it though. odd pretty sure you have discounted jiriaya using frog katas because he didnt show it.
> 
> kakashi has superior speed i dont doubt that. in fact so much so that jiriaya would opt for Sm off the bat. and we know superior speed isnt auto win against SM. see A3 v SM naruto. Lets not forget frog call that stops kakashi in his tracks. kakashi single only tool against jiriaya that is of threat is kamui.
> ...



Again, Kakashi as I've proven is much faster than SM Jiraiya. I never denied that Jiraiya could use Frog Katas, I only argued that Kakashi's superior speed makes it next to impossible to land. It's be the equivalent of Raikage vs. SM Jiraiya.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Again, Kakashi as I've proven is much faster than SM Jiraiya. I never denied that Jiraiya could use Frog Katas, I only argued that Kakashi's superior speed makes it next to impossible to land. It's be the equivalent of Raikage vs. SM Jiraiya.



and A3 is much faster than naruto. what is your point. it didnt stop naruto from avoiding him

also your statement is hilariously silly do you mean to compare kakashi speed, who thought susanoo arrow was too fast to A4? please stop yourself

failing to physically react to susanoo arrow is danzo level hence shabby.

also katas ignores speed, as preta clearly dodged and still got hit. you cant be too fast to be hit by something you cant see. 

i wont matter how fast A4 or 8G gai is both would be hit by Muu if Muu goes invisible


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## Sufex (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> 2. jiriaya magically didnt have sensing


If he didn't use it in a fight where it would save his life why are you giving him abilities he doesn't have? Just because naruro far superior SM had it doesn't translate to jman


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> If he didn't use it in a fight where it would save his life why are you giving him abilities he doesn't have? Just because naruro far superior SM had it doesn't translate to jman



only going off @UchihaX28 who somehow gave kakashi katon . 
Senjutsu grants sensing, the people who taught naruto Sm which allows him to sense were on jiriaya shoulder. yet somehow couldnt sense. 

naruto Sm cant be superior to the Ma or Pa or are you assuming it is?


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> and A3 is much faster than naruto. what is your point. it didnt stop naruto from avoiding him
> 
> also your statement is hilariously silly do you mean to compare kakashi speed, who thought susanoo arrow was too fast to A4? please stop yourself
> 
> failing to physically react to susanoo arrow is danzo level hence shabby.



A3 is faster than SM Naruto in terms of Shunshin, not everything else while I've proven that Kakashi's attack speed, skill in CQC, and speed in general is much higher than Jiraiya's. Shunshin speed alone isn't enough to dominate, that I agree with. However, someone who can compete with a taijutsu expert who outclasses KCM Naruto on top of speed that rivals the much faster 6G Gai gives him both the speed, refkexes, and skill necessary to overpowered Jiraiya.

I compared Kakashi's reaction speed to V1 Raikage which is greater. This is no surprise considering Sharingan users have no issue dealing with V1 Raikage while Jiraiya will. Frog Katas are useless if you don't have the speed, reflexes, nor taijutsu to compete.


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## Sufex (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> only going off @UchihaX28 who somehow gave kakashi katon .
> Senjutsu grants sensing, the people who taught naruto Sm which allows him to sense were on jiriaya shoulder. yet somehow couldnt sense.
> 
> naruto Sm cant be superior to the Ma or Pa or are you assuming it is?


Bruh wtf are you trying to say. Naruro had ma and pa as well


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> Bruh wtf are you trying to say. Naruro had m and pa as well




they were on his shoulder and failed to sense asura path despite sensing being an innate ability of senjutsu. its obvious it wasnt thought of at the time or kishi needed jiriaya to loose at that point. 
also why use her tongue to sense an invisible chameleon that as far as all info is concerned doesnt hide its chakra?


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> A3 is faster than SM Naruto in terms of Shunshin, not everything else while I've proven that Kakashi's attack speed, skill in CQC, and speed in general is much higher than Jiraiya's. Shunshin speed alone isn't enough to dominate, that I agree with. However, someone who can compete with a taijutsu expert who outclasses KCM Naruto on top of speed that rivals the much faster 6G Gai gives him both the speed, refkexes, and skill necessary to overpowered Jiraiya.
> 
> I compared Kakashi's reaction speed to V1 Raikage which is greater. This is no surprise considering Sharingan users have no issue dealing with V1 Raikage while Jiraiya will. Frog Katas are useless if you don't have the speed, reflexes, nor taijutsu to compete.



Any proof A3 isnt faster in terms of everything else? where do you get that from. considering RCM boosts everything reaction and speed wise. kakashi had several battles jiriaya had one, so its also a hilarious stretch to say everything cqc wise kakashi has much higher. sure he has more feats. I dont doubt kakashi would outdo base jiriaya

none of what you have said allows kakashi to avoid something he CANT see. i mean despite Sm naruto MUCH better reaction and speed feats preta could easily avoid his punch yet the ghost punch 1 shotted. point being kakashi can be much better , however he will not avoid something he cannot see.

sure kakashi can be faster than V1 A. jugo could react to V1 A. why on earth would jiriaya struggle to react to V1 A?
actually frog katas isnt useless , naruto has neither the speed or skill to compete with juubito yet after landing a rasengan his words were next, ill try frog katas. [WHY ON EARTH would someone several tiers below juubito opt for ghost taijutsu ?]

you are denying an obvious fact that, SM naruto>>preta path yet that didnt stop preta from physically avoiding what he could see. however what he couldnt well we know what happened


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> Any proof A3 isnt faster in terms of everything else? where do you get that from. considering RCM boosts everything reaction and speed wise. kakashi had several battles jiriaya had one, so its also a hilarious stretch to say everything cqc wise kakashi has much higher. sure he has more feats. I dont doubt kakashi would outdo base jiriaya
> 
> none of what you have said allows kakashi to avoid something he CANT see. i mean despite Sm naruto MUCH better reaction and speed feats preta could easily avoid his punch yet the ghost punch 1 shotted. point being kakashi can be much better , however he will not avoid something he cannot see.
> 
> ...



I don't need proof when SM Naruto explicitly had higher reflexes than A3 on panel and actually has much better sensing than Jiraiya. Not only is Jiraiya's sensing vastly inferior which makes your argument a false equivalent, but Jiraiya doesn't have feats that match what Kakashi has done in speed, reactions, and taijutsu. One has speed that matches 6th Gate Gai and taijutsu that outclasses KCM Naruto, the other had his blindside punch cock-blocked by Human Path at point-blank range.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I don't need proof when SM Naruto explicitly had higher reflexes than A3 on panel and actually has much better sensing than Jiraiya. Not only is Jiraiya's sensing vastly inferior which makes your argument a false equivalent, but Jiraiya doesn't have feats that match what Kakashi has done in speed, reactions, and taijutsu. One has speed that matches 6th Gate Gai and taijutsu that outclasses KCM Naruto, the other had his blindside punch cock-blocked by Human Path at point-blank range.



and Sm naruto had vastly better reflexes than preta path on panel. IT did not stop preta from physically avoiding him. that has been my point all along. Ma and Pa sensing isnt though, want to have a guess where they are? on jiriaya shoulder

nor did peta have speed feats, reactions or taijutsu to avoid SM naruto. want to guess what he did? avoided naruto...

one also lost to zabuza in cqc though. just saying....the other made kisame run away. you make it sound like it makes any sense for jiraiya to engage with kakashi in cqc when he has no reason to and kakashi has yet to blitz anyone worth their salt or pressure anyone at all in taijutsu in 700 chapters.

we got haku intercepting him after all, so this whole kakashi unseen pressure is going to be byulying jiriaya is fan fic at its finest

ps: odd how you ignore the same human path got sent flying and blitz by a kick. 

I feel most of your arguments are rather circular. kakashi is shown in the same panel as 6 gate gai therefore he moves as fast. does this then mean kakashi can speed blitz base gai and essentially 1 shot gai before he can use gates?

we see jugo who could get pawned by base killer bee, react to V1 A but that level of speed is too fast for jiriaya to handle? 

A4 is super fast he almost blitz sasuke, sasuke got good reactions he didnt get blitz. that sums up your argument. 

A4 never came close to blitzing anyone bar sasuke yet his speed his hyped to the moon and back. Now kakashi's because again he is shown in the same panel failing to achieve anything against V2 jin's .


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> and Sm naruto had vastly better reflexes than preta path on panel. IT did not stop preta from physically avoiding him. that has been my point all along. Ma and Pa sensing isnt though, want to have a guess where they are? on jiriaya shoulder
> 
> nor did peta have speed feats, reactions or taijutsu to avoid SM naruto. want to guess what he did? avoided naruto...
> 
> ...



That proves my point. SM Naruto has greater speed and taijutsu, so he defeated Preta Path. All you're doing is making erroneous examples and failing to prove how SM Jiraiya's speed and reflexes are up to snuff relative to Kakashi's high-end feats.


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## Sufex (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> they were on his shoulder and failed to sense asura path despite sensing being an innate ability of senjutsu. its obvious it wasnt thought of at the time or kishi needed jiriaya to loose at that point.





It still doesn't mean he has the sensing of naruto unless we get real evidence otherwise

I dont know if the chameleon can camo its chakara but i know it was going to get cought by the barrier Jman put up at the start of the fight thats why it got out of the way.


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## LostSelf (Apr 17, 2019)

Nagato to a Tsunade (A Sannin like Jiraiya) surrounded by guards: Pff, chakra to the feet? You're meaningless in front of overwhelming power. I laugh at you and your guards.

Nagato to Kakashi: I know you're injured and near death, but you're crazy if you think I'll get close to you. I'm scared you might be a clone and kick my ass.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> That proves my point. SM Naruto has greater speed and taijutsu, so he defeated Preta Path. All you're doing is making erroneous examples and failing to prove how SM Jiraiya's speed and reflexes are up to snuff relative to Kakashi's high-end feats.




His speed and reflexes had nothing to do with defeating Preta though
That’s as dishonest as a person can be
Honestly quite disappointed

I am saying a much slower fighter could avoid naruto 
So why can’t jiriaya avoid kakashi who based on nothing is apparently much faster

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

FoboBemo said:


> It still doesn't mean he has the sensing of naruto unless we get real evidence otherwise
> 
> I dont know if the chameleon can camo its chakara but i know it was going to get cought by the barrier Jman put up at the start of the fight thats why it got out of the way.




The frogs on his bloody shoulders do though
That’s the point I am making 

Yet somehow they forgot they had it


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Nagato to a Tsunade (A Sannin like Jiraiya) surrounded by guards: Pff, chakra to the feet? You're meaningless in front of overwhelming power. I laugh at you and your guards.
> 
> Nagato to Kakashi: I know you're injured and near death, but you're crazy if you think I'll get close to you. I'm scared you might be a clone and kick my ass.



Because chakra to feet doesn’t defeat ST
Coming close to kakashi means risk getting feinted
Not sure how that means anything more than kakashi fights with clones 

Same could have been said of naruto if he actually used his clones with intelligence


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 17, 2019)

This isn't the stupidest thread I've seen on Jman , if people make threads like Jiraiya can beat Tobirama and Pain if he had knowledge, I don't see why Kakashi can not best him. He is very very close to Sannin level by end of WA( if he has a good kamui eye) and has OHKO moves that can end Jman no matter who chooses to engage. 
The notion that WA Kakashi can beat Jiraiya isn't as absurd as Jiraiya taking in Madara or Pain or some shit. Infact it is more possible.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 17, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> this thread ignores jiraiya was gimped for the benefit of naruto
> 3 things which can change the out come of an encounter were taken from jiriaya
> frog call, frog katas and sensing
> 
> ...



Jiraiya fans need to face the facts...

Statements about beating Pein and Itachi are just statements and don’t count.

Kisame was just playing around in the Toad Esophagus and was never in any danger. Itachi used Amaterasu to escape for little to no reason.

Konan was doing fine in the oil and hair. 

Jiraiya was pressured by Three Paths of Pein and thought they were dangerous, which means more than defeating all three of them.

Jiraiya fighting all Six Paths off panel doesn’t mean anything because it was off panel.

Things like danger sensing and Frog Kata don’t apply to him even if he is listed with the abilities because we didn’t see them, even if Fukasaku also didn’t use them. 



The only feats Jiraiya has in the entire series are losing a 1v1 fight to Asura Path, and losing to Orochimaru in a fair fight. His only abilities are Yomi Numa memes and the ability to bring out one weak summon at a time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 17, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya fans need to face the facts...
> 
> Statements about beating Pein and Itachi are just statements and don’t count.
> 
> ...



Fair and square. 

If anything you are giving Jman TOO MUCH CREDIT!


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## Icegaze (Apr 18, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya fans need to face the facts...
> 
> Statements about beating Pein and Itachi are just statements and don’t count.
> 
> ...



None of what you said changes the fact that frog call could have been used to stop all 3 which would have been an easy win

So the frogs forgot they had access to a paralysing sound wave

None of what you said changes the fact that SM sensing most likely wasn’t thought of

I haven’t said anything about pain statement or itachi statement
Didn’t mention either of those so why bring them up

So Pa who taught naruto ghost punches can’t use them 
Intelligent statement noted


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The fact that you also clearly hate on Jiraiya these days makes me not want to discuss the character with you. But why don’t you tell me who you think Sick Itachi looses to that Healthy Itachi beats?
> 
> I don’t think you have anyone in mind, which should tell you your not accounting for his illness properly



There's no hate on Jiraiya, there's a disagreement with your clearly warped idea of what Jiraiya can do. 

I don't ignore the manga, like you do. Zetsu made it clear that the only difference between a sick and healthy Itachi was that a healthy Itachi wouldn't cough blood whilst he was fighting and wouldn't have had the reduced speed he demonstrated when he failed to counter Sasuke's shuriken. 

The only thing that'll change is how they fight, a sick Itachi would likely use the rib cage Susanoo from the get-go to compensate for his compromised agility. 

Either way, Itachi>Jiraiya. There is no way around it and no amount of forced parallels (whilst ignoring everything else) will change that.



Turrin said:


> Because I don’t hate on any character...



Let's not pretend you made lots of threads about how Sasuke would die and all that.


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There's no hate on Jiraiya, there's a disagreement with your clearly warped idea of what Jiraiya can do.
> 
> I don't ignore the manga, like you do. Zetsu made it clear that the only difference between a sick and healthy Itachi was that a healthy Itachi wouldn't cough blood whilst he was fighting and wouldn't have had the reduced speed he demonstrated when he failed to counter Sasuke's shuriken.
> 
> ...


Cool 

Answer the question who does Healthy Itachi beat that Sick Itachi doesn’t?


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## Azula (Apr 18, 2019)

"No speed feats"


*Spoiler*: _Moves so fast pein doesn't even have time to defend itself, not once but twice_ 



*Link Removed* *Link Removed* *Link Removed* *Link Removed*





*Spoiler*: _Moves so fast and strong, he destroys the wall beneath him and reaches pein before a free falling object thrown way earlier as well as preparing a massive jutsu simultaneously_ 



*Link Removed* *Link Removed* *Link Removed*




Both destroying the land underneath and a free falling object are used as a reference to show high speed characters.

Inb4 someone is unable to understand the point and accuses me of comparing Jiraiya to Minato and Madara, this is an explanation.

But sure Kakashi only matching a bunch of fireballs that a _*stationary *_Gai fires off proves he is faster.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool
> 
> Answer the question who does Healthy Itachi beat that Sick Itachi doesn’t?



I don't analyse each and every character like you still do. However, stop dressing it up, we know this is just you keeping some iteration of Jiraiya = Itachi alive. I'll guarantee that if I made a sick Itachi vs Jiraiya thread, you wouldn't be able to provide any convincing argument aside from your take on "portrayal". 

Though, it is obvious you really can't counter any of the points brought against you.


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 18, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> None of what you said changes the fact that frog call could have been used to stop all 3 which would have been an easy win
> 
> So the frogs forgot they had access to a paralysing sound wave
> 
> ...



He was being sarcastic......


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## Serene Grace (Apr 18, 2019)

Icegaze said:


> None of what you said changes the fact that frog call could have been used to stop all 3 which would have been an easy win
> 
> So the frogs forgot they had access to a paralysing sound wave
> 
> ...


Hes meming bro


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 18, 2019)

Azula said:


> "No speed feats"
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Moves so fast pein doesn't even have time to defend itself, not once but twice_
> ...



Would be compelling if you weren't so blatantly dishonest. Your first spoiler outside surprise scenarios seeing as Jiraiya wasn't outspeeding Pain consistently. 

Though, I'll credit you for the second one, that's a good point. But that's more towards speed- but it contradicts the message from your first where you made a big deal about Pain not reacting yet Pain was able to react in this instance... 

Kakashi's not slow and you're aware of that. Keeping up with Itachi, Pain, Obito and Jinchuriki Paths are not small feats. The Pain point should make you realise, seeing as this dude was able to keep up with imperfect Sages like Jiraiya and perfect ones like Naruto. 

You need a reminder of how the Sharingan's precognition works:
object are used as a reference

That's ridiculous with the base Sharingan and with the MS' presumed boost, it will be even more ridiculous. 

Combine this with the fact Kakashi can use the warping Kamui to warp targets in, eject weapons or even use a Kamui snipe... you've got a good case as to why WA Kakashi can hold his own and possibly win.


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## Azula (Apr 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your first spoiler outside surprise scenarios seeing as Jiraiya wasn't outspeeding Pain consistently.



How can human path be "surprised" when he himself is the one rushing towards Jiraiya and Jiraiya kicks him in the face.
How can Animal path be "surprised" when Jiraiya is right there in front of him, kicking him from the front.

There is no surprise here, everything is being done right there in front of their eyes. They just failed to react in time.

The only way the paths can keep up is if they have a forewarning of Jiraiya's movements. The they are at a stalemate, neither side being able to harm the other.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'll credit you for the second one, that's a good point. But that's more towards speed- but it contradicts the message from your first where you made a big deal about Pain not reacting yet Pain was able to react in this instance...



Nothing contradicts Preta path begin ready for Jiraiya because Jiraiya has to travel far greater distance for him than he had to do for either Animal or human. That gives him more time to react despite the speed.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Keeping up with Itachi, Pain, Obito and Jinchuriki Paths are not small feats.



Keeping up is the most abused and dishonest way of saying something about speed.

How was he "keeping up"?

By having 3 other teammates take up the of attention of 4-5 of the Jinchuriki paths? Here is kakashi failing to land a hit on jinchuriki path. So much for Sharingan.
Here is he getting slapped by 1 path.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 18, 2019)

Azula said:


> How can human path be "surprised" when he himself is the one rushing towards Jiraiya and Jiraiya kicks him in the face.
> How can Animal path be "surprised" when Jiraiya is right there in front of him, kicking him from the front.
> 
> There is no surprise here, everything is being done right there in front of their eyes. They just failed to react in time.
> ...



The same way Deva was surprised when SM Naruto broke his stake. The difference is Jiraiya hit when Human Realm wasn't expecting it, like Naruto broke Deva's weapon when he wasn't expecting it. The difference, Jiraiya never overwhelmed Human Path again while Naruto did...

Animal Path wasn't surprised, he complimented Jiraiya, you posted the page... 

Or the Paths could just keep up i.e. the speed edge Jiraiya had wasn't Raikage level.



> Nothing contradicts Preta path begin ready for Jiraiya because Jiraiya has to travel far greater distance for him than he had to do for either Animal or human. That gives him more time to react despite the speed.



You: Jiraiya moved so fast Pain couldn't react
Also you: Jiraiya moved so fast and Pain reacted to his attack



Jiraiya got incredibly fast, but it isn't anything like Naruto or Raikage level.



> Keeping up is the most abused and dishonest way of saying something about speed.
> 
> How was he "keeping up"?
> 
> ...



How was he keeping up? Well, he wasn't overwhelmed by their speed. Pain could keep up with Sages, and Kakashi wasn't outmatched in the speed department. Itachi's really fast, Kakashi wasn't overwhelmed by his speed. The Jinchuriki, I don't need to tell you this. 

Kakashi's not super slow.


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't analyse each and every character like you still do. However, stop dressing it up, we know this is just you keeping some iteration of Jiraiya = Itachi alive. I'll guarantee that if I made a sick Itachi vs Jiraiya thread, you wouldn't be able to provide any convincing argument aside from your take on "portrayal".
> 
> Though, it is obvious you really can't counter any of the points brought against you.


Answer the question who can Healthy Itachi beat that Sick Itachi can’t?

I won’t move forward till you answer this


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Answer the question who can Healthy Itachi beat that Sick Itachi can’t?
> 
> I won’t move forward till you answer this



No point in moving forward when you'll ignore everything else you can't answer.


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No point in moving forward when you'll ignore everything else you can't answer.


Cool then don’t quote me


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 18, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool then don’t quote me



Someone's jimmies are getting rustled.


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## Alita (Apr 18, 2019)

Honestly Kakashi can neg any sanin with kamui. He was fast enough to react against and utilize it against opponents faster and stronger than any sanin including rinnegan obito and even juudara.


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## Shazam (Jun 20, 2019)

"Can beat Jiraiya " and "Is superior to Jiraiya " is two different things. 

I think Kakashi has a small window of q chance to win with Kamui, but outside of that Jiraiya is the superior of the two. 

Hell even Itachi "can" beat Hashirama but doesnt mean he is superior


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## Soul (Jun 20, 2019)

I'll probably need a laptop to address this.
Jesus Christ.



UchihaX28 said:


> What's this?! An UchihaX28 thread that isn't dedicated to Uchiha wanking? Who is he and what has he done to UchihaX28?



So you wank the Sharingan, not only the Uchiha
Good to know.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Yes it is true - Kakashi can beat Jiraiya

Jiraiya wins 9/10


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## Hayumi (Jun 20, 2019)

Lmao I'm deadddd. @UchihaX28 great post. You just made me a fan. Also I love seeing how you got all the Sannin cult and J-man wankers in one place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Imo Kakashi loses this matchup and the only chance of actually putting a dent in Jiraiya is with Kamui. 

Doesn't mean that the masters and sannin aren't on the same level tho (which I know is the actual thing that rustles everyone's jimmies)


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Imo Kakashi loses this matchup and the only chance of actually putting a dent in Jiraiya is with Kamui.
> 
> Doesn't mean that the masters and sannin aren't on the same level tho (which I know is the actual thing that rustles everyone's jimmies)




I don't wear jimmies.

Rustle that!


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't wear jimmies.
> 
> Rustle that!


I can jimmies your rustle then.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I can jimmies your rustle then.




I don't jimmies rustle.

Can that!


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't jimmies rustle.
> 
> Can that!


That can jimmes definitely rustle


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## Santoryu (Jun 20, 2019)

Tanto said:


> It's time for people to accept that Kakashi can beat Jiraiya



Some people enjoying living in the past.

It's a phenomenon also seen in the elderly as stated in the psychological literature. At these times they need cups of tea and cookies to help better understand such things.


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> That can jimmes definitely rustle


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## Shazam (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> *Kakashi loses this matchup and  only chance is with Kamui.
> 
> Doesn't mean that the masters and sannin aren't on the same level*



So apparently being on the same level can mean only having a slim chance ?

And yet people say SM Jiraiya = Itachi is total wank even though there is a panel saying this near exact thing?


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## ShinAkuma (Jun 20, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Some people enjoying living in the past.



The last time Kakashi had sharingan  August 4, 2014

Hmmmmmmm



> It's a phenomenon also seen in the elderly as stated in the psychological literature.



I see ya fam.


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> So apparently being on the same level can mean only having a slim chance ?


Just because one beats another doesn't mean they aren't on the same level doe. Tsunade is the weakest Sannin and Kakashi beats her more times than not. Kakashi can also beat Orochimaru and Jiraiya if the fight goes in his favor. I consider the Sannin to be on the same level generally, and Kakashi consistently beats Tsunade in my book, so that FOR ME puts him on the same general level.



> And yet people say SM Jiraiya = Itachi is total wank even though there is a panel saying this near exact thing?


I don't care about statements that aren't actually backed up by feats. Base Jiraiya will never be on the same level as Itachi and that is indisputable. Itachi in my book also beats SM Jiraiya with a respectable high-diff win. Why am I not putting Jiraiya on the same level even tho Itachi high-diffs (you can argue that SM Jman can extreme diff in favorable position) is simply because Jiraiya's SM requires downtime to activate, that prevents him from casting jutsus (well, most of them anyway). Now you might be asking why am I not doing the same for Naruto? Because his SM clones can be prep'd in advance and even if they aren't, Naruto is still able to use his arsenal to wait for SM.

Itachi >= SM Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jun 20, 2019)

No, he can't. Jman is a tier above him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Great One (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> He died
> 
> He literally died when he went back out so idk what your talking about
> 
> The situation your describing happened but even worse. He got manhandled


Kakashi also died againt pein... So idk what are you talking about.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Batzzaro29 said:


> Kakashi also died againt pein... So idk what are you talking about.




I never said he didn’t. But that’s also pain arc kakashi, not WA. Not that I think WA would have beaten deva. But Jman didn’t fight all six lol.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 20, 2019)

This is it, this is where it all started. 

The thread that rustled so many Sannin and Jman fan Jimmies and the beginning of the 3rd Great NF Battledome War

@UchihaX28


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## Shazam (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Just because one beats another doesn't mean they aren't on the same level doe. Tsunade is the weakest Sannin and Kakashi beats her more times than not. Kakashi can also beat Orochimaru and Jiraiya if the fight goes in his favor. I consider the Sannin to be on the same level generally, and Kakashi consistently beats Tsunade in my book, so that FOR ME puts him on the same general level.
> 
> 
> I don't care about statements that aren't actually backed up by feats. Base Jiraiya will never be on the same level as Itachi and that is indisputable. Itachi in my book also beats SM Jiraiya with a respectable high-diff win. Why am I not putting Jiraiya on the same level even tho Itachi high-diffs (you can argue that SM Jman can extreme diff in favorable position) is simply because Jiraiya's SM requires downtime to activate, that prevents him from casting jutsus (well, most of them anyway). Now you might be asking why am I not doing the same for Naruto? Because his SM clones can be prep'd in advance and even if they aren't, Naruto is still able to use his arsenal to wait for SM.
> ...



Pleasantly surprised with this proper response. 

Anyways, what could Jiraiya ever have done differently the way he was wrote to make you personally feel that the canon statement is acceptable for you? Beat pain instead of lose ? That would place him above Itachi. Jiraiya's hurdle to get into SM can be minimized with use of summoning multiple boss toads (something he can do whether or not he did it the one time entering SM in the manga) who can attack/defend and buy time. But this isnt about Itachi so much as it was about how characters on the same level dont have much of a chance while another character is supposedly not the same level despite forcing high diff and a canon statement to back. It doesnt make sense.


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Anyways, what could Jiraiya ever have done differently the way he was wrote to make you personally feel that the canon statement is acceptable for you? Beat pain instead of lose ? That would place him above Itachi. Jiraiya's hurdle to get into SM can be minimized with use of summoning multiple boss toads (something he can do whether or not he did it the one time entering SM in the manga) who can attack/defend and buy time.


I am gonna be honest with you, I don't think Jiraiya summoning the 3 boss summons is actually do-able or viable, because IMO it requires a lot of chakra (P1 Naruto had to tap into Kurama to summon Gamabunta) and while Jiraiya def could summon 1 with no problems, I think 3 is pushing it and will significantly exhaust his reserves. I think Jiraiya needed ONE more fight, either as an edo against someone on the same caliber as SM Kabuto (Like SM Jiraiya vs WA Naruto, even tho Naruto is a lot stronger than him, Jiraiya as the great advantage of being an edo, that means he can afford being reckless and show more of his arsenal). I also think that Jiraiya should have had a fight against a mid-tier akatsuki and beat him in base with a new Jutsu (Jiraiya has a lot more jutsus than Itachi I think, but Quality > Quanity).



> But this isnt about Itachi so much as it was about how characters on the same level dont have much of a chance while another character is supposedly not the same level despite forcing high diff and a canon statement to back. It doesnt make sense.


I never said Kakashi doesn't have a chance tho, I think Base Jiraiya beats him in a high-diff fight due to his trickyness and the danger of Kamui. I have never in my life scaled SM Jiraiya to WA Kakashi as I think SM Jiraiya absolutely stomps him 0 diff. I also think he is on the same level as the Sannin due to him beating one Sannin consistently (Tsunade). Orochimaru W/O edos also beats Kakashi in a high-diff fight.

I said that I think SM Jiraiya is on the same level as Itachi, even if I think Itachi beats him. I just don't scale him that way because the prep that is needed for Jiraiya's SM really hurt his chances of winning. If I was to put them in a tier list it would look something like this:


*High Kage*
Itachi
SM Jiraiya


*Mid Kage*
Orochimaru
Jiraiya (base)
Kakashi
Tsunade
Hopefully that clears some things up and why I think a certain way. Contrary to popular belief I hate all kinds of wanks, sannin and masters alike.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

One of the most well thought out posts I have seen, and when I first saw this I was new to the forum so this very much sparked my interest in status for here. With that being said I do have a differing opinion to the one displayed here, but a post as good as this deserves a proper response with respect. I hold this post as one of the holy grails of NBD despite me disagreeing with either aht it is arguing, so I hope I do it justice by responding to it in a way that it deserves. 







UchihaX28 said:


> One of Kakashi's signature traits is not only his tactical mind, but his speed as well. He managed to battle against V2 Jins directly in combat who were wielding Obito's Sharingan and taking advantage of Shared Vision as a result. Many who don't view this as a significant thing forget to consider the fact that even before using Bijuu enhancements, Obito's Jinchuuriki were explicitly shown to be too fast for KCM Naruto and their Sharingan enabled them to see through all of KCM Naruto's and Base Bee's moves, both of which are much faster than SM Jiraiya. In spite of this, Kakashi managed to battle them directly while Jiraiya struggled immensely against Nagato's paths who were physically slower and did not have the major reaction buff that Obito's paths did thanks to his Sharingan




Now I feel this is brought up in a way that makes it seem like kakashi nearly solo’s seven V2 Jin’s which is not the case. Firstly , the pupils of the rinnegan are absent on both the V2 states of the Jin’s and also the full biju states. Obito can project the rinnegan on the jinchuriki yes, but canhe on their V2 selves? It doesn’t look like he can, as seen with the eyes being absent on the V2 Jin’s. 

Also, KCM naruto and bee were up agaisnt seven of them, kakashi and Gai were up against four. There’s clearly a gap portrayed there. Furthermore, KCM just prior to his fight wa barely able to use a clone aftaet getting destroyed by Nagaot. Itachi even makes note of this. 

I also feel like people often compare these V2 Jin’s to kn4 when really there is no comparison to be made in my opinion. Five biju formed together to form a mega TBB. Naruto with the ninetails avatar fired a TBB at it and overpowered it. What is important to note is that these two TBB bombs were the same size, meaning they had the same amount of chakra poured in, yet the ninetails TBB won. 
Why? Because the ninetails chakra is much more potent then any of the other biju’s. The ninetails and bee then go on to beat all their other biju, and tbh the ninetails carried that fight. It’s is very apparent that the ninetails chakra is much more potent then the other biju, so a V2 cloak buff from the ninetails clearly is much more potent.

I would argue that the kn4 Naruto Jman beat without KI (presumably in base) is stronger then any of the other V2 Jin’s bar the eight tails. This is because the chakra is just so much more potent, the gap is evidently there. This is further supported by the fact that kn4 is the only one that can fire a TBB, while the other V2 Jin’s cannot. This further supports the premise that Kn4 is beyond the V2 Jin’s the masters took on. These V2 Jin’s most likely did not have the rinnegan buff or the sharingan buff, which is huge actually, as obito says it’s his sharingan that allows him to react to kcm Naruto. So these V2 Jin’s did not poses the eyes that let them contest bee and a heavily fatigued Naruto, their chakra potency and power most definetly is not up to kn4 levels, and there’s one other issue as well.


Most of this “fight” happens on screen. But the time the masters fought the V2 Jin’s was definetly not very long at all because majority of the events we see are flashbacks and telepathic communications. As shown when dan talks to tsunade, telepath takes zero time at all, and about 80 percent of the time between when the masters are last shown and when the V2 Jin’s transform is all just flashbacks and telepathy. Given this, this fight could not have lasted more then a miniutes maximum. 


There’s also the other prospect of the masters entering this battle with the idea to stall the V2 Jin’s. They aren’t trying to beat them, they are trying to stall them. Bruce lee could kick my ass easikt, but If I wasn’t trying to beat him, but instead stall him, I’m confident I could prolong a “fight” between us for over a minute like the masters did. Stalling is different from fighting, and this is a trope used often in that a weaker character engages a character too strong for them just to stall for the main character. They stalled these four V2 Jin’s all weaker then kn4 for about a minute. This is still impressive and well beyond most shinobi, but I am confident that if we sub out Gai and Kakashi for SM Jman and fuck it sick, reaper deathseal Orochimaru, they could stall these V2 Jin’s just as well if not better then the masters.



UchihaX28 said:


> Throughout the manga, Kakashi has accrued many other feats as well. He matched Itachi twice by showcasing the sufficient speed and reflexes necessary to see through Itachi's bluff and simultaneously react to his suiton attack from underwater. During that time-frame, Kakashi not only countered Itachi's attack, but he managed to bunshin feint him and caught him off-guard with a potential attack from under-water.



I think you should preface this by saying this is part one becaus in this same fight kurenai breaks out of an itachi genjutsu and dodges an attack from him. Part one didn’t age well man. 




UchihaX28 said:


> Lastly, let's refer to Kakashi's speed relative to Gai. It's implied that Kakashi could compete with Gai several times in CQC which forced Gai to devise a counter through Sharingan Genjutsu because he couldn't counter him with his Taijutsu. This is the same CQC expert who outclassed KCM Naruto in taijutsu. Kakashi also managed to operate on a similar level as 6th Gate Gai as his Raiden matched 6th Gate Gai's Morning Peacock in speed. 6th Gate Gai also outsped Kisame before he could form a single thought and Kisame outmaneuvered Base Bee who could react to an attack from Minato and was fast enough to intercept a punch from V1 Raikage on Naruto at point-blank range. He also evaded V1 Bee effortlessly which we concluded is a feat that rivals Sharingan users and is within V1 Raikage's tier. Thus, we conclude that Kakashi during the War Arc is actually much faster than Kisame who is within V1 Raikage tier in terms of reflexes which is far beyond Jiraiya's paygrade here as it requires the likes of War Arc SM Naruto to precisely react to V1 Raikage. This may seem absurd to some, but Base Gai still outperformed KCM Naruto in CQC and easily reacted to a blindside attack from Obito, so this is equally as likely.




I hate bringing this up because I don’t think it’s indicative of his speed but I think these two things serve a purpose. I think these two scenes I’m going to bring up serve the purpose of making sure kakashi doesn’t get lumped into speed tiers of this caliber. 


Kakashi just a day prior to everything you have mentioned had his raikiri completely blocked and intercepted by haku and in a way that’s comparable to being blitzed. Immediately afterwards Zabuza swings ibis said din a 180 degree circle which mind you is the most ineffective way in terms of speed to hit someone, and still hits kakashi. Now I’m NOT saying kakashi is haku level, fuck no! But if Kakashi was at the speed of V1 raikage, this just would not have happened. Just couldn’t. Hell kakashi should have been able to thoroughly blitz the hell out of both of them the second they appeared if he was V1 raikage level. I find those two sevens stupid imo and Kishimoto downplayed kakashi in those scenes, but they forbid me from buying your claims here. Especially since kakashi has sharingan precog man, that’s like a huge buff. He should have easily been able to jump over that sword swing, or see haku coming. He’s faster then what their two scenes will have you believ, but I cannot in good faith put him at the level in which you are saying. 




UchihaX28 said:


> Zabuza and Kakashi's stats at the time were relatively comparable and this result still happened. The speed disparity between Kakashi and Jiraiya as proven above is massive. Therefore, this event will inevitably happen where Kakashi preempts Jiraiya's seals, replicates them, and executes his jutsu before Jiraiya can even use his. Jiraiya's ninjutsu outside of Boss Summons which Kakashi can counter is not really that impressive to begin with and Kakashi holds the elemental advantage through Suiton and Raiton, so reading his seals to discern what type of jutsu is going to be used can also be used as a means to overpower Jiraiya. This advantage still holds true even towards the end of the manga even against a Perfect Sage, so the premise of Jiraiya having Sage Mode should guarantee victory in a ninjutsu exchange is an invalid argument and more accurately, a fallacy. Kakashi is not the generic elite Uchiha like Itachi is, he has a moniker that stems from his ability to use ninjutsu that is known throughout the entire world and the Akatsuki. Itachi being able to accomplish such a feat makes it more likely that Kakashi can to and integrate such a tactic into his fighting style seamlessly when battling Jiraiya.




I agree kakashi could copy anything Jman has besides summons, but there’s an issue. He can copy how the texhince is formed, but he can’t copy the senjutsu in his body and then just create it in his system. So while yes he can copy his jutsu, it will be with a lot less potency and will come out a lot shittier. If kakashi and Jman both clash with a gallantrasengan, Jman will cleave through his because Jman has his jutsu amoed by senjutsu and kakashi does not. In that sense copying Jman’s jutsu seems a bit redundant. Jman knows the most effecient ways to use his arsenal, so he can understand when kakashi would opt to use his jutsu, and counteract it because kakashi can’t replicate it with the same level of potency. I also doubt  kakashi can copy of the jutsu of ma and pa because I believe they are using nothing but senjutsu. I don’t see kakashi’s whipping out a frog song imo. 




UchihaX28 said:


> This also means that arguments that suggest that Kakashi won't use Kamui are inherently false. We're explicitly told numerous times that Kakashi refrains from using Kamui unless he was in a precarious situation due to the strain he experiences every time he uses it. [1] [2] This is no longer the case with Kakashi who could clash with Obito as his equal in genjutsu, could use Kamui several times throughout the War Arc and outwitted Obito with it, and was praised by both Obito and Madara as if he were an Uchiha, the latter of which explicitly compared him to EMS Sasuke to some extent. He was tired throughout the War Arc yet used it multiple times against Obito, used it to warp the Hachibi (Kurama's chakra doesn't mean he handles the aftereffect any better), used it to warp in and out of Kamui dimension a few times (it was implied this was a viable strategy to counter Obito), used it on the Gedo Mazo, and continued to use it multiple times against Juubidara. It is clear that Kakashi's mastery over the Mangekyo Sharingan would give Kakashi no reason to not even use Kamui if the opportunity presents itself.




I agree kamui is definetly an issue, but I personally feel that with the number of tools Jman has it won’t be simple to do. A very large amount of Jman’s ninjutsu are very big, widespread attacks. Nearly all his jutsu are big and obstruct vision, and he also has to sage toads pressure kakashi’s ith ninjutsu as well. 




UchihaX28 said:


> Due to his increased mastery over the Sharingan, we have to consider how Genjutsu can be used to his advantage. Prior, an argument can be made that Sharingan Genjutsu is a non-factor. However, it's been established as of Databook 4 that Kakashi has mastered his Sharingan since then and Sharingan genjutsu has been a basic tool employed by Sasuke, Itachi, Madara and Obito. Because Kakashi clashed with Obito in genjutsu and was commended for his ocular prowess by both Obito and Madara, there's literally no reason why he can't even use his Sharingan at least as well as MS Sasuke could whose genjutsu in comparison was stated to be quite pitiful by both Danzo and Obito. This means that subduing Boss Summons is no difficult task at all. Not only did Hebi Sasuke with nearly zero chakra managed to subdue Manda instantaneously, but the Boss Summons are sluggish targets and it's significantly easier to land genjutsu on slower targets than it is with faster targets. It's explicitly why Raikage was immune to Sharingan Genjutsu. Because of this, subduing his Boss Summons shouldn't be a difficult task at all and they can be used against him.
> 
> Let's also not forget that eye contact must be made in order to land Sharingan Genjutsu (obviously). Jiraiya admits that it's impossible to counter an attack without seeing it at all * even if you're a sensor type*.




I believe you yourself said Gai developed a way to fight agaisnt kakashi with taijutsu in a way that avoids eye contact. Granted Jman hasn’t trained for that, but the databooks do state he has frog kata and sensing, albeit we can all agree it’s a shittier version. I do believe if Jman has it in his head it’s void genjutsu, the SM sensing aspect might further help him. Ma and Pa can also break him out of genjutsu as well, and as sages they should be able to sense when he is under the effects of genjutsu. 




While you raise good points I feel like a case can be made for Jman as well here. 

SM Jman’s speed is honestly hard to guage, and kakashi simply has conflicting speed feats, so it’s hard to determine who is faster. However one thing that is clear cut is SM Jman hits a lot harder then Kakashi does. Even if SM Jman is slower slower characters can still react and tag faster ones. One kick from SM Jman would send kakashi flying, and would do some god damage. This also means that if Jman is under pressure in cqc all he needs is a hit to create some distance. 

Sharingan precog is another thing. Obito himself states it’s his sharingan that allows him to react to KCM naruto. So if SM Jman takes kakashi’s back, and kakashi hears an attack he needs to jump away from but doesn’t start off seeing it, his “speed” is cut drastically due to lack of sharingan precog. 


Jman himself just has so many jutsu and combo jutus potential it’s crazy. With Ma and Pa, SM Jman can use every single nature transformation apart from lightning style. Sick Jman was able to use kage level ninjutsu, and in the pain fight we was spamming ninjutsu effortlessly and not once did he show signs of running low on chakra. So it’s clear he can spam his tracks. If SM Jman opts for a very large scale sake mud swamp,  kakashi with sharingan precog will likely jump high in the air to avoid. Of course, in the air he has very little movement, so even if he is faster in that moment his dodging options are limited. Isn’t hsi secnario with kakashi traveling forward high in the air to avoid dark mud swamp, I just don’t know what kakashi would do if Jman just drops a food cart destroyer on his head while he’s in the air.  


Sage art bath of boiling oil is a constant stream of oil so it can’t all be kamui’d away, and it once again is a very large jutsu. Kakashi would once again need to jump into the air. Gallant rasengan is also very large and hard to dodge, which would need kamui to stop it. A close range kambari senbon could prompt an earth walk, once again breaking line of sight. 


Art of the raging lions mane could prove difficul, especially if Jman combos it with a dark mud swamp to catch kakashi while he is distracted. Creature detection jutsu could accomplish a similar thing, and Ma and Pa in general can pelt kakashi with ninjutsu while jam tries to immobbilse him.


Toad gourd also masks chakra signatures if I remmebr, so kakashi would be unsuspecting of it. He could be sucked into the toad before Jman attacks him in his confusion. 

Jman can very easily keep the pressure on kakashi’s with his ninjutsu, and can hold his own in Cqc as well. I very much respect your opinion but I personally feel as though Jman would take this 

Kudos for the post!


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> don't think Jiraiya summoning the 3 boss summons is actually do-able or viable, because IMO it requires a lot of chakra (P1 Naruto had to tap into Kurama to summon Gamabunta) and while Jiraiya def could summon 1 with no problems, I think 3 is pushing it




But agaisnt pain he summoned one boss summon and two toad sages in base. Toad sages require more chakra to summon, so why can’t he summon three boss toads when he can summon a boss toad and two sage toads that are harder to summon then boss ones. And in the pain fight Jman not once made a remark or so much as thought about hsi chakra reserves, so he clearly has tons. He should be able to enter SM and summon all three logically


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> But agaisnt pain he summoned one boss summon and two toad sages in base. Toad sages require more chakra to summon, so why can’t he summon three boss toads when he can summon a boss toad and two sage toads that are harder to summon then boss ones.


Just because it takes time doesn't really mean it takes more chakra to summon. You could also argue that once Jiraiya entered SM he got his reserves restored thanks to Ma and Pa's help.


> And in the pain fight Jman not once made a remark or so much as thought about hsi chakra reserves, so he clearly has tons. He should be able to enter SM and summon all three logically


I disagree, just because he never said something like this doesn't really make me think that he wouldn't have problems summoning all three.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> *Mid Kage*
> 
> Orochimaru




This hurts my soul lol


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> But agaisnt pain he summoned one boss summon and two toad sages in base. Toad sages require more chakra to summon, so why can’t he summon three boss toads when he can summon a boss toad and two *sage toads that are harder to summon then boss ones.*


Sorry but this is baseless, it was shown multiple times in part 1 that *SIZE* is what matters chakra wise for summoning, , not status/something other than size.


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> This hurts my soul lol


Sorry, but I am sure my mid-kage is different than yours. If I was to make a real tier list with a plethora of characters I am sure you will feel different.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Sorry but this is baseless, it was shown multiple times in part 1 that *SIZE* is what matters chakra wise for summoning, , not status/something other than size.




Then why did Jman have to charge up to summon them?


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Then why did Jman have to charge up to summon them?


No idea, perhaps he tried to go into sage-mode before resorting to summoning them? Nowhere was it stated he required to gather up chakra for the summoning.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Just because it takes time doesn't really mean it takes more chakra to summon. You could also argue that once Jiraiya entered SM he got his reserves restored thanks to Ma and Pa's help.
> 
> I disagree, just because he never said something like this doesn't really make me think that he wouldn't have problems summoning all three.




Even if he got his chakra restores this means base Jman can summon one boss and two sage toads. I don’t really see a reason why he would charge up if it wasn’t more taxing. There’s a higher cost to get something more valuable. I don’t think that’s too crazy to assume imo. And I think if you actually sit there and look at just how many jutsu’s Jman uses agaisnt pain it’s not too hard to imagine he can do all three.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> No idea, perhaps he tried to go into sage-mode before resorting to summoning them? Nowhere was it stated he required to gather up chakra for the summoning.



I’m pretty sure he states he has to summon the two great sages and that it will take time before he can summon them


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## Artistwannabe (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> I’m pretty sure he states he has to summon the two great sages and that it will take time before he can summon them


Can you provide scans? I have not read the fight in a while.


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Even if he got his chakra restores this means base Jman can summon one boss and two sage toads. I don’t really see a reason why he would charge up if it wasn’t more taxing. There’s a higher cost to get something more valuable. I don’t think that’s too crazy to assume imo. And I think if you actually sit there and look at just how many jutsu’s Jman uses agaisnt pain it’s not too hard to imagine he can do all three.


I politely disagree, but since both of our arguments hold some kind of merit, I think its safe to say we both won't be changing our opinion on this.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Sorry, but I am sure my mid-kage is different than yours. If I was to make a real tier list with a plethora of characters I am sure you will feel different.




Naturally. Honestly I can see why ppl don’t agree with some of my views on the sanin, they don’t get to fight much


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Naturally. Honestly I can see why ppl don’t agree with some of my views on the sanin, they don’t get to fight much


Shunning great characters for that sweet Uchiha dick, thats how Kishi rolls I guess.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> I politely disagree, but since both of our arguments hold some kind of merit, I think its safe to say we both won't be changing our opinion on this.



True true. I can see why you think he can’t also three, they are huge af


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> True true. I can see why you think he can’t also three, they are huge af


Exactly, that is why both of our arguments hold some merit.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Shunning great characters for that sweet Uchiha dick, thats how Kishi rolls I guess.



That hits so close to home it hurts. Kishimoto literally had Orochimaru get a reaper deathseal nerf and the worst case of ninja aids we have ever seen just so sasuke could kill him.


Feelsbadman


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> That hits so close to home it hurts. Kishimoto literally had Orochimaru get a reaper deathseal nerf and the worst case of ninja aids we have ever seen just so sasuke could kill him.
> 
> 
> Feelsbadman


Hopefully Boruto changes that, but I am not so hopeful.


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Hopefully Boruto changes that, but I am not so hopeful.


 

Doubt it.


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## Zembie (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Doubt it.


Mitsuki seems like an Orochimaru V2, idk if you like him but he gives me some kind of hope at least some part of Orochimaru will do good.


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## Grinningfox (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Mitsuki seems like an Orochimaru V2, idk if you like him but he gives me some kind of hope at least some part of Orochimaru will do good.



I think good in regards to Orochimaru is pretty relative

I’d say he loves his children in his own way and will do whatever he has to to make sure they’re okay

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> Can you provide scans? I have not read the fight in a while.





In the anime this is further explained upon in which Jman says it will take me a little while to get the chakra or something like that


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## Symmetry (Jun 20, 2019)

Zembie said:


> Mitsuki seems like an Orochimaru V2, idk if you like him but he gives me some kind of hope at least some part of Orochimaru will do good.



If motion is Orochimaru 2.0 he’s gonna get shafted in the story lol. Big hype up anthem contract ninja aids for plot and die 


I’m salty don’t mind me


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Base Jiraiya would still overwhelm him



What the hell? He gets Sakura/Naruto Clone blitzed unless Kakashi gets slapped with the plot stupidity stick.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> What the hell? He gets Sakura/Naruto Clone blitzed unless Kakashi gets slapped with the plot stupidity stick.



Just like all the other times in the manga? Oh wait never happened despite being one of the characters with the most shown fights, gotta love that Kakashi wank lol


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Just like all the other times in the manga? Oh wait never happened despite being one of the characters with the most shown fights, gotta love that Kakashi wank lol



You know too well that that is plot shield. His warp is practically impossible to avoid. Even jinchuriki Madara and Kaguya had trouble dealing with that ability but since this show is still about Naruto Kakashi will get nerfed unless he fights other space-time jutsu users. Ergo why I added "unless he gets slapped with the plot stupidity stick".


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> You know too well that that is plot shield. His warp is practically impossible to avoid. Even jinchuriki Madara and Kaguya had trouble dealing with that ability but since this show is still about Naruto Kakashi will get nerfed unless he fights other space-time jutsu users. Ergo why I added "unless he gets slapped with the plot stupidity stick".



You crying that it’s plot is irrelevant as doesn’t mean it is plot. Just because you wanted Kakashi to fight a certain way to win doesn’t mean plot is against, newsflash he just doesn’t fight like that


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jun 20, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> lol dodge
> 
> In the anime this is further explained upon in which Jman says it will take me a little while to get the chakra or something like that



You could theorize that Fukasaku and Shima are special for whatever reason and have a long summoning time. Because we're shown during Naruto's sage training that the fusion in to the shoulders seems to be near instant(Kurama rejects it instantly, at least), so I don't think they're summoned fused in to the shoulders already. 

However, Shima is able to instantly summon Fukasaku, the toad army, and Naruto. So maybe you can say perfect sages can summon Fukasaku and Shima instantly. Or maybe Fukasaku and Shima, due to their status among the toads, just has the means to summon whoever/whatever they want without issue. 

It doesn't really make any sense regardless and was probably just a plot device to draw out the Jiraiya/Pain fight to be another chapter longer.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> You crying that it’s plot is irrelevant as doesn’t mean it is plot. Just because you wanted Kakashi to fight a certain way to win doesn’t mean plot is against, newsflash he just doesn’t fight like that



He does as long as plot allows it and as long as he isn't drained. What you are saying is about as logical as pretending that Sasuke can't use Susano'o to beat someone to a pulp the moment the battle starts because he didn't do it against the Raikage or blind Madara despite doing so against Danzo. Your judgment is a bit clouded. Or that Madara couldn't activate perfect Susano'o instantly against the 5 kage to stomp them just because he didn't do it.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> He does as long as plot allows it and as long as he isn't drained. What you are saying is about as logical as pretending that Sasuke can't use Susano'o to beat someone to a pulp the moment the battle starts because he didn't do it against the Raikage or blind Madara despite doing so against Danzo. Your judgment is a bit clouded. Or that Madara couldn't activate perfect Susano'o instantly against the 5 kage to stomp them just because he didn't do it.



So in otherwords you use a fan fiction version of Kakashi where he fights the way you want him to because he didn’t do so in the manga. Well since I’m not wanking Kakashi like you my mind isn’t clouded by fanboyism so I’m not gonna ignore the manga, might as well go into threads with MS+ Sasuke and talk bout him spamming Kirin


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## JayK (Jun 20, 2019)

Ok.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> So in otherwords you use a fan fiction version of Kakashi where he fights the way you want him to because he didn’t do so in the manga. Well since I’m not wanking Kakashi like you my mind isn’t clouded by fanboyism so I’m not gonna ignore the manga, might as well go into threads with MS+ Sasuke and talk bout him spamming Kirin



That makes absolutely no sense. It is neither fanfiction nor did the Manga show that he can't do this. You are using the ridiculous "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" logic. Jbtw Jiraiya has never been shown to break sharingan genjutsu. So by your weird logic Jiraiya can't break sharingan genjutsu because he didn't show it on panel? Sharingan Sasuke stronger than Jiraiya confirmed.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That makes absolutely no sense. It is neither fanfiction nor did the Manga show that he can't do this. You are using the ridiculous "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" logic.



>Says it’s not fan fiction
>What you say never happened
>Expect people to believe it’s gonna happen

Allofmylols


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> >Says it’s not fan fiction
> >What you say never happened
> >Expect people to believe it’s gonna happen
> 
> Allofmylols



Ok then Jiraiya can't break Sharingan Genjutsu and gets one-shot by any Uchiha?


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Ok then Jiraiya can't break Sharingan Genjutsu and gets one-shot by any Uchiha?



Can you show me any Uchiha putting someone in a Genjutsu outside of the important ones?


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Can you show me any Uchiha putting someone in a Genjutsu outside of the important ones?



Answer my question.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Answer my question.



Answer mine. How can I know if any Uchiha can put him in one if they haven’t?


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## Quipchaque (Jun 20, 2019)

Bonly said:


> Answer mine. How can I know if any Uchiha can put him in one if they haven’t?



I didn't ask you if they can put him in one. Answer the question. Yes or no?

No answer as expected. Carrying on.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I didn't ask you if they can put him in one. Answer the question. Yes or no?



I can’t answer the question if you don’t answer mine. Are you perhaps using something that wasn’t shown in the manga? I can’t answer fan fiction questions


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jun 20, 2019)

@DiscoZoro20

Destroying Bonly's poor logic one post at a time


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## sabre320 (Jun 20, 2019)

I swear to God people keep doing this shit....the only way kakashi wins is with kamui..yeah no fkn shit it's his strongest jutsu , a ms has that is greater than any ms jutsu...


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