# When Did this Series Begin to Decline?



## DemonDragonJ (Dec 26, 2015)

From what I have observed, most readers of this series, including myself, believe that the writing quality of this series began to decline as time passed, but I am wondering at point most readers believe that it started to degrade and become worse.

For me, the point in the series when it began to decline was immediately after Naruto's fight against Pain/Nagato and Sasuke's fight against Itachi; both of those fights were excellent fights, to me, but Obito's revelation to Sasuke after those fights was what signaled the beginning of this manga's downfall, when the Uchiha clan began to utterly dominate the entire plot, Naruto and Sasuke began to overshadow all other characters, and far too many utterly moronic plot twists occurred. It is very unfortunate that that happened, since the series before then had been a most excellent one, in my mind.

What does everyone else say about this? At what point do you believe that this series began to decline? I await your responses.


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## Prototype (Dec 26, 2015)

The whole "Child of Prophecy" shit that snowballed out of control


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Dec 26, 2015)

When ero-sennin died, can't rememeber his name, Jsomething


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## Viper (Dec 26, 2015)

Around the Pain arc


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## Seto Kaiba (Dec 26, 2015)

Like you have stated, and many others have and will state. The decline most notably happened after the Pain Arc. Granted, there were still issues I had with Part II in general before, but it's that point in particular that I feel where the writing got to where little if anything, could be salvaged to bring it back to its former glory. Especially with the Kage Summit Arc that happened. That was the beginning of the truly terrible writing that people associate with the latter half of Part II.


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## shade0180 (Dec 26, 2015)

Pretty sure the 1st time it declined happened after the Chuunin exam event, when Naruto and co was chasing Sauce.



the second time is during the time Naruto talked with Pain and he revive everyone.



then it was all downhill at that point.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 26, 2015)

When Gaara came back to life.


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## Zyrax (Dec 26, 2015)

When Nagato brought back everyone to life


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## Zef (Dec 26, 2015)

Pein Arc. 
The same arc many claimed was the best.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 26, 2015)

Seems we agree that dead people should stay dead.


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## Zef (Dec 26, 2015)

For me it's not so much Nagato raising everyone from the dead, (though that was very bad) it's that all the problems near the series end originated from that one arc.

The power inflation (for those bothered by it)
The Child of Prophecy plot
Sage of Six Paths plot
Juubi plot
Rinnegan  (for those who don't like it)
etc.


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## God (Dec 26, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Like you have stated, and many others have and will state. The decline most notably happened after the Pain Arc. Granted, there were still issues I had with Part II in general before, but it's that point in particular that I feel where the writing got to where little if anything, could be salvaged to bring it back to its former glory. Especially with the Kage Summit Arc that happened. That was the beginning of the truly terrible writing that people associate with the latter half of Part II.


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## Indra (Dec 26, 2015)

The beginning of Shippuden was shit for me 

The moment Kishimoto made the mistake of not developing Naruto's character and keeping him the same pervert, I knew it was going to be bad. Thankfully some of the later arcs weren't terrible.

But after the Pain Arc for sure, Naruto had hit rock bottom.


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## Yagami1211 (Dec 26, 2015)

Anytime there is CS2 characters.


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## TRN (Dec 26, 2015)

Start of Part 2  

Anyone say anything else is wrong


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## martryn (Dec 26, 2015)

I'm ok with the Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori fight.  After that, though, with the introduction of brand new characters like Sai and Yamato, everything hit the fan.  My argument was why introduce basically an entirely new cast when you've got a great cast of characters to work with from part I already.


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## Tohoma (Dec 26, 2015)

Pretty much around the Pain arc.


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## Keishin (Dec 26, 2015)

Part 2 = Zzz


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## Mateush (Dec 26, 2015)

Mostly at the end of war arc. Kishi was in hurry to end it.


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## MS81 (Dec 26, 2015)

Mateush said:


> Mostly at the end of war arc. Kishi was in hurry to end it.



This was my problem as well. Kishi made Naruto and Sasuke look like gods.
I just hate the whole ashura and indra=rikudou when clearly you have indra decendants
Aka Obito who had juubi inside his own body and never awakened the rinnegan?!?!


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## tkpirate (Dec 26, 2015)

after pain arc.but it's really during the war arc where it went to shit.


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## gershwin (Dec 26, 2015)

Beginning of the end 

Though War arc with its neverending Obito vs Naruto shit made this look decent


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## Kor (Dec 26, 2015)

I used to say Pain Arc, but looking back I'd say the Tenchi Bridge Recon Arc.

It turned from the world building and character developing Kishimoto started and slowly started steering towards the Uchiha dominance of the story where Naruto couldn't get Sasuke out of his head.

Along with the fact that Sasuke was put on a completely higher tier and had a overall better showing throughout Part II then the main character. As well as failing to develop the side characters with the exception of Shikamaru.

Akatsuki and their goal, capturing the jinchuriki, became overshadowed by the Uchiha. Where we could've seen Naruto interact with others like him and see more of the world Kishimoto decided otherwise.


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## Maxlee (Dec 26, 2015)

I personally always felt Shippuden had a very strong start with cool new characters Deidara and Sasori showing Gaara (and us) how boss Akatsuki is by defeating him and taking the tailed beast.

But things got sloppy real quick. Sasori being an immortal cyborg puppet was a bit farfetched (even though he's one of my favorites) and I remember his battle with Chiyo and Sakura seemed to last for months and was a chore to read through.

Then Kakashi pulled a magical Sharingan upgrade out of his ass, which would only be the first of many to come. Deidara was consequently owned by Naruto and had to self destruct, which was a seemingly fitting end for a relatively two dimensional villain with explosions as his only theme.

Only he didn't die. Without arms he seemed to have used some sort of doton jutsu and managed to survive. which always felt a little bit "oh the audience seems to really like this Deidara guy, let's keep him in the game a bit more" to me.

Gaara's revival was a bit cheesy, but it was at the cost of Chiyo's life, so I can let it slide. It is however the first sign that the author is scared to kill off beloved characters.

Then we slowly march into the Sai/Immortal arc, which had little to tell us. It felt like chapters ended with Sai's book as cliffhanger for months, and in the end what was the importance of that book? Nothing. Shikamaru being GOAT by basically singlehandedly defeating Hidan and Kakuzu was very uncomfortable to watch.

So yeah. A bumpy ride. That's what I would call Shippuden. A very bumpy ride at that. Best wear a helmet while taking this train.



Kor said:


> I used to say Pain Arc, but looking back I'd say the Tenchi Bridge Recon Arc.
> 
> It turned from the world building and character developing Kishimoto started and slowly started steering towards the Uchiha dominance of the story where Naruto couldn't get Sasuke out of his head.
> 
> ...



Very well put. It's easy to imagine part II as a massive world traveling story where Naruto has to reach jinchuuriki first and save them from Akatsuki as they hunt them all down.

Instead we got the Sharingan show.


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## DSTREET45 (Dec 26, 2015)

DemonDragonJ said:


> For me, the point in the series when it began to decline was immediately* after Naruto's fight against Pain/Nagato and Sasuke's fight against Itachi;* both of those fights were excellent fights, to me, but Obito's revelation to Sasuke after those fights was what signaled the beginning of this manga's downfall, when the Uchiha clan began to utterly dominate the entire plot, Naruto and Sasuke began to overshadow all other characters, and far too many utterly moronic plot twists occurred. It is very unfortunate that that happened, since the series before then had been a most excellent one, in my mind.



Pretty much this. The "Child of Prophecy", Uchiha Controversy, Sharigan increased hax and controversy, Indra/Ashura descendants plot points, and Sage of Six Paths plot points didn't help either.

The War Arc onward is likely my least favorite since for some reason that is the only section I can't remember what had happened  despite rereading the entire manga every once in awhile. Kinda like my mind just blocked out everything.


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## Punished Kiba (Dec 26, 2015)

Sai and Sasuke arc was the true start of the decline


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## Sixpence None The Richer (Dec 26, 2015)

Naruto's promise to Sakura is the root of the cancer that swallowed this series. The series became salvageable a long time before the Pein arc. Hard to say when. Was an entertaining ride at the least -- when you are in the hype or just watching the series to laugh at it.


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## HumanRage (Dec 26, 2015)

Rinnegan/rikudo BS killed the manga.


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## HunterxH (Dec 26, 2015)

Honesty? After the Chuunin Exam Arc. 

That's when the series went from "Naruto" to "Chasing Sasuke." That's literally why he left the village to train with Jiraiya, as well as his primary motivation since he got back. 

The entire narrative and direction of the story changed for the worse, all over one small decision to make Sasuke runaway from the village.


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## SupremeKage (Dec 26, 2015)

No this shit sunk deeper than the Titanic ship when kaguya appeared


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## ThatGreekLady (Dec 26, 2015)

After Pain arc.


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## Balalaika (Dec 26, 2015)

Kor said:


> I used to say Pain Arc, but looking back I'd say the Tenchi Bridge Recon Arc.
> 
> It turned from the world building and character developing Kishimoto started and slowly started steering towards the Uchiha dominance of the story where Naruto couldn't get Sasuke out of his head.
> 
> ...



I agree with this. The breakdown started early in part two and snowballed into a catastrof*ck of epic proportions.


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## Raiden (Dec 26, 2015)

Pain arc, which was supposed to be the original end of the series I think. While I enjoyed reading Naruto for as long as it lasted, perhaps things should have wrapped up there. Many of the plot angles that followed afterward were just brutal...and many of the asspulls people complain about.


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## dr_shadow (Dec 26, 2015)

HunterxH said:


> Honesty? After the Chuunin Exam Arc.
> 
> That's when the series went from "Naruto" to "Chasing Sasuke." That's literally why he left the village to train with Jiraiya, as well as his primary motivation since he got back.
> 
> The entire narrative and direction of the story changed for the worse, all over one small decision to make Sasuke runaway from the village.



The finding-Tsunade arc was pretty good I thought. I liked the chemistry between the Sannin.


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## Lord Trollbias (Dec 26, 2015)

Kor said:


> I used to say Pain Arc, but looking back I'd say the Tenchi Bridge Recon Arc.
> 
> It turned from the world building and character developing Kishimoto started and slowly started steering towards the Uchiha dominance of the story where Naruto couldn't get Sasuke out of his head.
> 
> ...


Agree. Was actually pretty hyped at the start of Shippuden but this arc felt like a letdown. Then came all the prophecy shit in Pain Arc but even then I still thought the series could have been salvaged. End of Pain Arc TNJ just solidified the decline and War Arc murdered the series.


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## hustler's ambition (Dec 26, 2015)

I also agree with the majority here who stated the serious, notable decline of Naruto the series started after the Pain Arc. The Child of Prophecy bullshit ruined the entire theme of the series, which was supposed to be about overcoming hardships and achieving greatness through hard work no matter the circumstances. However that came to a cease when it was confirmed everything that was happening to Naruto was "destined" to happen.

Not only did the Child of Prophecy crap ruin the series, but it ruined Naruto's character. Too much focus on the Uchiha. It was blatant Kishi didn't know what to do with Itachi nor Sasuke's characters after Itachi died. So he tried to force it down our throats that Itachi was a god-like figure who was the ultimate hero. I believed Kishi should've kept Itachi as a villain. Itachi's character made more sense that way.

Sakura being on Team 7 and supposedly on par with a suped-up Naruto and Sasuke is laughable at best. Instead of focusing on developing Shikamaru's character throughout the story, Kishi really should've developed Sakura's character. Her strength is nowhere near Sasuke and Naruto's, and she seems out of place in her own team. She's literally fodder compared to her teammates. 

And that's just *some *of the complaints I have with this series.


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## HunterxH (Dec 26, 2015)

mr_shadow said:


> The finding-Tsunade arc was pretty good I thought. I liked the chemistry between the Sannin.



You know what's funny, I actually rewatched that entire arc not too long ago and I was a little surprised with how passable it was. It wasn't anything special, but within the realm of Naruto it was very good. And that arc came about because they needed someone to heal Sasuke, Kakashi, as well as Lee, and another Hokage.

But all of that promise died down fairly quickly with Sasuke running away and all that. A lot of people loved that arc but I don't understand why, it literally ruined the series.


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## Raiden (Dec 26, 2015)

DSTREET45 said:


> Pretty much this. The "Child of Prophecy", Uchiha Controversy, Sharigan increased hax and controversy, Indra/Ashura descendants plot points, and Sage of Six Paths plot points didn't help either.
> 
> The War Arc onward is likely my least favorite since for some reason that is the only section I can't remember what had happened  despite rereading the entire manga every once in awhile. Kinda like my mind just blocked out everything.



Personally, it's kind of funny how the same thing that happened with DBZ and GT happened to Naruto. When the story veered off where it was supposed to end originally, everything kind of crashed into a ball of flames quality wise.


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## Mider T (Dec 26, 2015)

It didn't.   It only kept getting better.


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## Darmody (Dec 26, 2015)

part 2 was all around bad


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## The Runner (Dec 26, 2015)

To be frank?

In Part 2.

It degraded from this


to this

boom! boom! pow! pow! pew! pew! woosh! derp derp.


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## Saru (Dec 27, 2015)

surprise, surprise--the end of the Pain arc.

that was when the story become more centered around eye power and the Sage of the Six Paths, and also when the writing declined. The Kage Summit was a trainwreck in terms of Sasuke's development too (in my opinion), and made me go from liking to almost disliking one of my favorite characters in the manga (Sasuke). so the Kage Summit was a very polarizing arc for me.

that was the tipping point. to add something new to the discussion, if you're asking when the manga began it's most rapid decline, it was the beginning/middle of the War arc.


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## Divinstrosity (Dec 27, 2015)

While I agree that the series STARTED to decline in pt. 1, when everything became about chasing Sasuke, I did enjoy part 1. I was so optimistic going into part 2. The way Akatsuki ended part 1, oh man ... it seemed like we were headed toward some epic shit. 

Pfft. 

Barring a few moments here and there, I strongly disliked much of part 2, and really hated others. 

I think I needed Zoloft during the Pain Arc. To say nothing of, other than Deva Pain, I hated the Pain bodies and all of their faces!!

I didn't even like Sasuke vs Itachi, and it can be said that is the only reason I read the manga. 

The animation in part 2 was rarely ever right. I liked the anime in part 1 FAR MORE than in part 2. I literally thought of writing a complaint letter to change it back. 

Where was all of that good ol' Japanese perfectionism in the part 2 anime?

I'm done.


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## fuff (Dec 27, 2015)

the thing about naruto is there is a reason to why every villain was evil not like im going to take over the world DBZ style. in naruto each villian had a reason to why they became in that position. obito because of rin, madara because of izuna, sasuke because of itachi/his clan, nagato because of yahiko. the only thing that sucked about shipuuden was the amount of crappy fillers other than that the animation was better (minus a few arcs here and there). and the whole plot twits of itachi was pretty good too


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## Lucaniel (Dec 27, 2015)

fuff said:


> to be honest i think the seires got better as it went because it gave a reason to why every villain was evil not like im going to take over the world DBZ style. in naruto each villian had a reason to why they became in that position. obito because of rin, madara because of izuna, sasuke because of itachi/his clan, nagato because of yahiko. the only thing that sucked about shipuuden was the amount of crappy fillers other than that the animation was better (minus a few arcs here and there). and the whole plot twits of itachi was pretty good too


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## UzumakiMAAKU (Dec 27, 2015)

The entirety of Part II was ass, but peak decline was Pain. Everything beyond his defeat completely murdered what made me love this series, like Naruto getting a one-way ticket to success cuz destiny instead of through hard work and determination. 

His Hokage title was the most unearned achievement in the entire fucking series.


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## ShadowReij (Dec 27, 2015)

Honestly? Quality as a whole was pretty consistent throughout. Naurto was never "OMGWTFAWESOME", it was "meh, it's good". That includes pt 1 which for some reason is overrated as fuck even though most fans probably can't even remember shit that occurred there that applied to pt 2.

The only real low points were Kakuzu Hidan, and the lowest was fucking Kaguya. Really really should've ended with Madara. I get what Kishi was trying to go for when she appeared but the execution and the length of appearance just made her more a waste of space.


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## TRN (Dec 27, 2015)

ShadowReij said:


> Honestly? Quality as a whole was pretty consistent throughout. Naurto was never "OMGWTFAWESOME", it was "meh, it's good". That includes pt 1 which for some reason is overrated as fuck even though most fans probably can't even remember shit that occurred there that applied to pt 2.
> 
> The only real low points were Kakuzu Hidan, and the lowest was fucking Kaguya. Really really should've ended with Madara. I get what Kishi was trying to go for when she appeared but the execution and the length of appearance just made her more a waste of space.



Part one we got to see other clans and people but in part 2 it was 98% uchiha all the fucking time	


Part 1 was far better and it got people into the manga, while part 2 turn people off.


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## Raiden (Dec 27, 2015)

UzumakiMAAKU said:


> His Hokage title was the most unearned achievement in the entire fucking series.



Yeah I think what made this unflattering too was him constantly spending time with Rasengan variants..and even mastering the original Rasengan. I thought it was very silly to constrain the title character to just that alone.


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## Keishin (Dec 27, 2015)

ShadowReij said:


> Honestly? Quality as a whole was pretty consistent throughout. Naurto was never "OMGWTFAWESOME", it was "meh, it's good". That includes pt 1 which for some reason is overrated as fuck even though most fans probably can't even remember shit that occurred there that applied to pt 2.
> 
> The only real low points were Kakuzu Hidan, and the lowest was fucking Kaguya. Really really should've ended with Madara. I get what Kishi was trying to go for when she appeared but the execution and the length of appearance just made her more a waste of space.



The entire war arc was trash with the zombies, obito, juubi, madara.... People were begging for something different like Kaguya back then. It was just handled bad.


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## Raiden (Dec 27, 2015)

Yeah I remember Edo Tensei caused a surge in excitement. That quickly went down the toilet in the worst way possible.


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## ShadowReij (Dec 27, 2015)

TRN said:


> Part one we got to see other clans and people but in part 2 it was 98% uchiha all the fucking time
> 
> 
> Part 1 was far better and it got people into the manga, while part 2 turn people off.



What other clans? You mean the side characters that would be absolutely irrelevent when the main plot kicks in? Sure.

Pt. 1 did what any intro to a story did. It got you into the story, introduced you to the story's universe but don't kid yourself into believing that the quality was any different. It was always "Meh, it's alright/good" from the get go.


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## RBL (Dec 27, 2015)

TRN said:


> Start of Part 2
> 
> Anyone say anything else is wrong



this

sai backstory was crap, the uchiha wankfest was unreadble, then pain arc happened, rinnegan, juubi, more uchihas, shit was bad since the beggining of part 2

and pain arc is the shitties or one of the shitties arcs part 2 had.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 27, 2015)

martryn said:


> I'm ok with the Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori fight.  After that, though, with the introduction of brand new characters like Sai and Yamato, everything hit the fan.  My argument was why introduce basically an entirely new cast when you've got a great cast of characters to work with from part I already.



At the time I liked the introduction of Sai and Yamato, it didn't bother me. It was once 200 chapters had gone by and they had received literally zero development that I started to view them as poorly written characters. In fact, any character introduced post-Pein arc is poorly written.

And, as others have said, post-Pein arc is when the manga got shitty. I actually thought the Pein fight itself was kinda bad, but I know some people liked it.

Some parts of Kage Summit Arc and War Arc were good, but most of it sucked.​​


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## Raiden (Dec 27, 2015)

Long time ago I think most posters agreed with what Martyn said. The Rescue Sasuke arc seemed to be a little lost in terms on direction. I guess now that we have seen the entire series...it's clear that things got a lot worse after the pein arc lol.


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## LadyTenTen (Dec 27, 2015)

Right after Hidan/Kakuzu arc, it just went downhill since then and finally died at the end of Pain's arc.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 27, 2015)

Series started to decline after Itachi's death. That was the end of the original plot Kishimoto planned when he started the drawing the manga.

Pain's story and presence felt like filler as hell, so the manga didn't feel the same.

But it really went downhill after the proper introduction of Juubi, Rikodou Sennin and the whole prophecy thing.


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## Pocalypse (Dec 27, 2015)

Intro of Child of Prophecy ruined the series, it was going into uncharted waters that had nothing to do with the original theme of this manga. End of the Pain arc was prolly the tipping point, shame because it could have been the best arc in Part II if Pain didn't bring back all the dead characters and no prophecy BS was involved, after that it was just a shit fest.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 27, 2015)

The Shoten clones were pointless filler, trying to stretch out what didn't need to be stretched out. Orochimaru also deserved a better defeat to Sasuke than he received, it was anti-climactic. These were the big early markers that part 2 was going downhill.  

Itachi and the Akatsuki Leader were supposed to be the original big-bads for Sasuke and Naruto. The Akatsuki Leader should not have had another eye power. It made the manga too centric on eye powers. The Child of Prophecy nonsense was also _really_ bad.

Nagato and the Rinnegan should not have existed. It should have been a character like an evil Minato, if not a fallen Minato himself. Someone that didn't have KKG, but had other powerful jutsu that anybody with enough talent of patience could learn.

Kishimoto also suffered from being too afraid to kill of his characters. A lot of people should have stayed dead from Pain's attack. But all the weight of the arc was lifted with magical plot redemption, just like with Gaara before, but much worse.

That said, there was real potential in Kage Summit Arc, and it was executed well. The War Arc also had _so_ much potential, but by that time Kishimoto and his editors had sealed their fate. If they had taken their time with this manga, it could've been amazing. 

Kishimoto's _amazing_ at coming up with interesting character designs and powers. He just doesn't have the patience or freedom to flesh them out as they should be. Can you imagine him being as patient with his character/plot development as George R.R. Martin? Man.
​


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## dr_shadow (Dec 27, 2015)

Oh, have we mentioned when eyes became as easy to swap as light bulbs? XD


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## Arthas (Dec 27, 2015)

For me the first indicator was the child of prophecy thing during the Pein battle but it was just a minor tremor.

I was ok with the resolution to the Itachi vs Sasuke battle (I wasn't happy that Sasuke could not win against a blind, holding-back, dying Itachi and that we never found out if Sasuke broke a full powered Tsukuyomi or not but I was ok with it). 

The Uchiha revelation was good in the sense it tied Sasuke back to Konoha & Naruto.

However for me *the start of the manga going downhill came with the end of the Pein arc. *The Mass ressurection and Book no jutsu just killed it for me and *then the Kage arc continued the downward trend* because there was a disconnect between the Sasuke from the Killer B arc and the Kage arc and Tobi behaved like an idiot where he actually united all his enemies.


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## Lord Aizen (Dec 27, 2015)

Seto Kaiba said:


> Like you have stated, and many others have and will state. The decline most notably happened after the Pain Arc. Granted, there were still issues I had with Part II in general before, but it's that point in particular that I feel where the writing got to where little if anything, could be salvaged to bring it back to its former glory. Especially with the Kage Summit Arc that happened. That was the beginning of the truly terrible writing that people associate with the latter half of Part II.



exactly this


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## Raiden (Dec 28, 2015)

I think the Kage Summit Arc was some effort to resuscitate things, and I feel as if there was some level of planning that went into designing it initially. With the way everything went, I guess that was the point where Kishimoto and the editors must have said, "Alright we're going to begin landing this thing." But what they basically did was expand the Naruto world while simulantanously running over some of the original concepts or "laws" of the series lol.


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## Kor (Dec 28, 2015)

Raiden said:


> I think the Kage Summit Arc was some effort to resuscitate things, and I feel as if there was some level of planning that went into designing it initially. With the way everything went, I guess that was the point where Kishimoto and the editors must have said, "Alright we're going to begin landing this thing." But what they basically did was expand the Naruto world while simulantanously running over some of the original concepts or "laws" of the series lol.



What "laws" did they run over for you?

The Kage Arc started off rather tame, but snowballed out of hand with Tobi doing idiotic moves like uniting his enemies as mentioned and his talk with Naruto.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Dec 28, 2015)

Pain arc. Many consider it went downhill _after_ Pain arc, but I personally think many of the problematic concepts and themes that had negative impact on the whole story were introduced _during_ the Pain arc. First and foremost, the Child of Prophecy concept. It's generally just not a good message to deliver children regardless how much Kishimoto tries to convince us. Heroism can occur from any place and to any one, it's not just decided by preemptive birth. On top of that, it contradicts the thematics of Part 1 regarding hard work beating natural talent, defying fate and so forth. Plus, it destroyed one of the fundamentals of Naruto's character.

My second problem is the Cycle of Hatred concept and the quest for peace which Pain and Naruto preaches. At the time, people argued it added depth to Naruto's character, that it's a more meaningful goal than just seeking recognition. In hindsight though, Kishimoto didn't have the writing chops to handle real life and complex crisis like peace and conflicts, it ended up a massive dump on Naruto's character. He never had an answer, he lacked philosophical depth compared to the antagonists, he countered everything with "You're just like me, you're lonely, bruh." 

My third problem is the Sage of Six Paths mythlogy. The myths are interesting as a standalone, but Kishimoto tried to reduce conflicts in the Naruto universe to a generational old family feud, it's contrived and silly.

My fourth, and my biggest problem with the Pain arc, like the majority of the fanbase, is the Talk no Jutsu session. Naruto's Talk no Jutsu got out of control and became a plot device.

Last but not least, the power-ups. The Rinnegan's ability to negate Ninjutsu and coupled with the fact that only Naruto had Sage Mode rendered nearly all of the characters useless and meant they had to rely on Naruto and Sasuke in the War arc.


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## OutlawJohn (Dec 28, 2015)

Sadgoob said:


> The Shoten clones were pointless filler, trying to stretch out what didn't need to be stretched out. Orochimaru also deserved a better defeat to Sasuke than he received, it was anti-climactic. These were the big early markers that part 2 was going downhill.
> 
> Itachi and the Akatsuki Leader were supposed to be the original big-bads for Sasuke and Naruto. The Akatsuki Leader should not have had another eye power. It made the manga too centric on eye powers. The Child of Prophecy nonsense was also _really_ bad.
> 
> ...



All of this right here.

Ocular power should have started and finished with Itachi and Sasuke.

One thing not mentioned here though was Kishi's inability to look forward. What I hated the most about the end of the manga was that Naruto and Sasuke weren't facing their own demons. They were facing the demon's of long gone generations. Madara should have remained a figure of the past, a terrifying but distant memory.

I think the thing that we hate the most about the Naruto series though, is the wasted potential. The reason we look back so fondly on Part 1 is because the world building was effective enough to be interesting, but vague enough to leave so much to the imagination. Uncharted countries and unseen villages, unwritten bloodlines and hidden Jinchuuriki's. So much wasted potential.


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## Raiden (Dec 28, 2015)

Kor said:


> What "laws" did they run over for you?
> 
> The Kage Arc started off rather tame, but snowballed out of hand with Tobi doing idiotic moves like uniting his enemies as mentioned and his talk with Naruto.



Sasuke's turn again back into a villain made the series appear indecisive. A lot of us thought that he would gradually move into another direction instead of getting worse. While power inflation has always been an issue, that arc especially caused confusion with just how much Naruto's gen can deal with. In retrospect, the mangaka tried to normalize the notion that the younger ninja could dance with top tier shinobi.


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## Sword Sage (Dec 28, 2015)

The Uchiha took the main plot of the whole story including with Sasuke stealing much of the whole show until the end really went down hill, and Pain should've been the final villain rather than Sasuke which was a totally bad to that ending of Naruto. Because Naruto didn't go all out on Sasuke compared to Kaguya which didn't make it the best Naruto ending compared to the Last Naruto the movie.

Believe or not the Last is canon.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2015)

To me the decline in quality started to become apparent in the Immortals arc, with how rushed the Kakuzu and Hidan battles were (and the the battles against the Jinchuuriki and Bijuu). Than things got even worse in the Uchiha Brothers Arc, with how rushed Orochimaru's demise was and the introduction of several plot elements that became very problematic for the narrative later on like, Sasuke's discovery of Itachi's true motives, Child of Prophecy, Tobi being the real Akatsuki Leader as Madara, etc...

I think people simply don't point to these two arcs as the start of the problem, because they still had many redeeming qualities to them, but in my mind the decline w/o a doubt began there, and only got worse as the arcs went on.


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## Raiden (Dec 29, 2015)

Strongly agree with Turrin as well. And that's what most people used to say before we had additional storyline problems.


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## martryn (Dec 29, 2015)

I still argue that it all went downhill starting with the introduction of Sai and Yamato, two characters that were introduced and then tossed aside.  It was the first indication that there wasn't going to be a return to focus on the Konoha 12, and that Part II was going to be introducing a lot of new characters instead of further developing older ones.

A real slap in the face came when, after they introduced a shit ton of new characters, they then resurrected all the older, dead, ones so they could be defeated again.

I'm still disappointed that we didn't get to see any of the Konoha 12 become ANBU, and have side arcs featuring those style of missions.  I really think Kiba, Shino, and Hinata would have made a great ANBU team, and you could have them working together reminiscent on how well they did during the Forest of Death segment of the Chuunin Exams.  

Yes, the Pain shit was a point of no return, when the manga decided to run contrary to the Part I notions of hard work overcoming natural talent by making Naruto destined to win, not through his effort and determination, but because of his bloodline, the Kyuubi, and this Child of Prophesy hoopla.  Then we got a steaming pile of diarrhea shit from Kishimoto by placing the emphasis of the manga on the sharingan and it's ability to just do whatever it fucking needs to do.  Fuck hard work.  I've got magical eye powers that can't be beaten except by other magical eye powers or an even more powerful bloodline ability.


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## Muah (Dec 29, 2015)

The second they stated itachi was stronger than oro and didnt even make it ambiguous. But shippuden was literally the mark of the downfall. It wasnt even until sasuke killed oro that i gave up the manga and started reading one piece. Shippuden was litterally written to be better than the original but it failed miserably

Whereas progression in naruto was down superbly it sucked balls in shippuden. Naruto went from loser to kickass in a really believable way. Part 2 was the sdjacent of that.


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## Divinstrosity (Dec 29, 2015)

If Itachi was the second to final, and Nagato/Pain the final villain, I think this manga could have went out with some dignity. But, the way it dragged on was so horrible. 

I thought Obito as the AL was horrible. He was always planning something, or doing something, but  never really doing anything. That dragged on for so long that by the time they revealed who he was, I really didn't care.


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## Punished Kiba (Dec 29, 2015)

martryn said:


> I still argue that it all went downhill starting with the introduction of Sai and Yamato, two characters that were introduced and then tossed aside.  It was the first indication that there wasn't going to be a return to focus on the Konoha 12, and that Part II was going to be introducing a lot of new characters instead of further developing older ones.
> 
> A real slap in the face came when, after they introduced a shit ton of new characters, they then resurrected all the older, dead, ones so they could be defeated again.
> 
> ...



This. This. This entirely.


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## The Runner (Dec 29, 2015)

If you want to be frank, OP, the easiest answer to the question is specifically at the end of the Pein arc, where Nagato explains his painfully-trying-too-hard-to-be-sad-by-killing-his-puppy backstory, to Naruto's inane response as to how he'll bring peace, to the worst asspull-deus-ex-machina I've ever seen, and so forth. It all lead up to the Five Kage Arc, where Naruto and Sakura both commit their most embarrassing actions because of Sasuke, and Sasuke being a cunt per usual. Everything just went down hill and devolved into painful and unrealistic forgiveness, jesus-nardo, energy mechanical Power Rangers fighting each other like Attack on Titan, Dragon Ball Z, and Pok?mon had a baby, Uchiha-dick slobber fests, and just massive flanderdization as a whole.

Even so, you could've predicted the horrific shit the came ever since Part 2. Just look how Orochimaru, the Big Bad of Part 1, was treated like shit compared to Sasuke and Itachi. How Naruto and Sakura didn't progress shit compared to Sasuke so Kishi could, obviously, draw out the whole "Search for Sasuke" bullcrap depite all three having equal quality teachers and potential. You could also see it with the Kyuubi having a Bad Ass Decay, and becoming an idiot with hurting his host, despite previous showings having him state that he's dependant on Naruto to live.

So yeah, Part 2 sucks...


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## Arthas (Dec 29, 2015)

martryn said:


> I still argue that it all went downhill starting with the introduction of Sai and Yamato, two characters that were introduced and then tossed aside.  It was the first indication that there wasn't going to be a return to focus on the Konoha 12, and that Part II was going to be introducing a lot of new characters instead of further developing older ones.
> 
> A real slap in the face came when, after they introduced a shit ton of new characters, they then resurrected all the older, dead, ones so they could be defeated again.



Disagree here. 

The fact that Kishi chose to introduce new characters or even ignore previous characters was not a big problem. The actual problem was fan expectations and desires that the K12 would continue to be major players in the manga. 

As far as Yamato and Sai go, their problem was not their introduction or at least *was not apparent in their introduction*. Their problem came about later when as you said they were not developed further. In a sense they are like a Chuunin exam Kiba who never got a 'Rescue Sasuke' arc to finish their development.

Slightly Off-Topic: I strongly believe that Kishi was setting up the situation for a major Danzo arc which he later chose to abort. Sai who would have to choose between Danzo and Naruto and Yamato who was the sole-survivor of Orochimaru's experiements to implant Mokuton would have to face the fact Danzo at least used if not ordered the experiments. 



SuperJoggaCypher the 3rd said:


> Even so, you could've predicted the horrific shit the came ever since Part 2. Just look how Orochimaru, the Big Bad of Part 1, was treated like shit compared to Sasuke and Itach*i. How Naruto and Sakura didn't progress shit compared to Sasuke so Kishi could, obviously, draw out the whole "Search for Sasuke" bullcrap depite all three having equal quality teachers and potential. *You could also see it with the Kyuubi having a Bad Ass Decay, and becoming an idiot with hurting his host, despite previous showings having him state that he's dependant on Naruto to live.
> 
> So yeah, Part 2 sucks...



Oro was known to be weaker then Itachi since Part 1.

Also Sakura having EQUAL POTENTIAL to the Naruto and Sasuke? What are you smoking?

Also Naruto progressed plenty it's just that fans like you don't want to accept the fact that most of Naruto's Part One feats were Kyuubi dependant ()and Part 2 began his development without Kyuubi.

Speaking of Kyuubi even at VotE in Part 1 the danger of using the Kyuubi was hinted at (Link). Not to mention the Kyuubi never TRIED to hurt his host. It was just that the Kyuubi's chakra would naturally hurt his host unless they used the proper method.


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## Raiden (Dec 29, 2015)

I personally thought the whole "hard work" thing was kind of dry, but that was the established concept of the series. I probably would have had Naruto learn a shitload of new techniques and abilities over the timeskip.


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## The Runner (Dec 29, 2015)

Arthas said:


> Oro was known to be weaker then Itachi since Part 1.
> 
> 
> Also Sakura having EQUAL POTENTIAL to the Naruto and Sasuke? What are you smoking?
> ...


not going to entertain this shit.

Not in the mood.


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## martryn (Dec 29, 2015)

> The fact that Kishi chose to introduce new characters or even ignore previous characters was not a big problem. The actual problem was fan expectations and desires that the K12 would continue to be major players in the manga.



Why shouldn't we have expected this?  The chuunin exam arc was as much about the other Konoha rookies as it was about Naruto.  The chapter covers continued to heavily feature the Konoha rookies.  The rescue Sasuke arc prominently featured four of the Konoha rookies.  Five counting Lee.  This was the expectation from the fans.


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## Canute87 (Dec 29, 2015)

mangekou sharingan


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## Raiden (Dec 29, 2015)

Agreed with martyn there. Perhaps our expectations were unrealistic, but we should have at least seen something else. Some of those guys disappeared for nearly the entire series lol.


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## $Kakashi$ (Dec 29, 2015)

Blackout said:


> The whole "Child of Prophecy" shit that snowballed out of control



This. It ruined naruto's character, too.


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## Drake (Dec 29, 2015)

For me it was when all the values of the series shifted. At the beginning, the story was about overcoming weakness with strength and determination. Though the message was a bit cliched, it was still better than what the series devolved into. By the end, all that mattered was if you were born with the sharingan or rinnegan or some other innate ability that allowed you to just steamroll everyone that stood in your way.


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## epyoncloud (Dec 29, 2015)

ChuckNorris902 said:


> For me it was when all the values of the series shifted. At the beginning, the story was about overcoming weakness with strength and determination. Though the message was a bit cliched, it was still better than what the series devolved into. By the end, all that mattered was if you were born with the sharingan or rinnegan or some other innate ability that allowed you to just steamroll everyone that stood in your way.



thats why rock lee and guy should stomp everyone.


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## Arthas (Dec 29, 2015)

martryn said:


> Why shouldn't we have expected this?  The chuunin exam arc was as much about the other Konoha rookies as it was about Naruto.  The chapter covers continued to heavily feature the Konoha rookies.  The rescue Sasuke arc prominently featured four of the Konoha rookies.  Five counting Lee.  This was the expectation from the fans.





Raiden said:


> Agreed with martyn there. Perhaps our expectations were unrealistic, but we should have at least seen something else. Some of those guys disappeared for nearly the entire series lol.



The Chuunin Exams had the other rookies as obstacles to be overcome. Not the same allies on the same side.

Let me put it this way:

Any series has certain core characters: 

- Naruto: Team 7

- Bleach: Ichigo's Nakama.

- Ruiroini Kenshin: The Kenshingumi 

- Yu Yu Hakusho: Hiei, Kurama, Kowabura, Yurumeshi

etc...

These guys are (or should be) the main focus.

Then there are people they fight/ally or do both with. Generally speaking once the initial conflict is resolved they take a background role. Take a look at Yu Yu Hakusho which also had a tournament. The surviving opponents who went on to become the main character's friends were reverted to background role and had only a minor appearence in the demon world tournament at the end.

Another clue is that for the most part most of the K12 had their plot hooks resolved in Part 1 or never had any plot hooks in the first place. Even Lee whoose *real goal* was to become a great ninja (and not to beat Neji) succeeded when he became a chuunin when adults were still taking the chuunin exams. Shikamaru and Hinata are the only real exceptions. Hinata did not resolve her romantic or confidence issues in Part 1 and Kishi *chose* to give additional development to Shikamaru.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 29, 2015)

The manga went downhill when they fucked up Sasuke's character progression by having Itachi be good instead of just keeping him a murderer who killed his clan , Sasuke never recovered and never had an actual direction/narrative that made sense he just blew with the wind into being whatever is necessary , one minute its destroy konoha , then its lets side with the 5 armies , then its lets destroy the 5 armies it just made his character indecisive and weak as hell , 

Obito and Nagato could have really been one character and once Naruto defeats him in the Pain Arc thats it for pt 2 

it ends with Naruto as the hero and Sasuke after defeating the evil Itachi 2nd big bad comes back to the village.


Then maybe you can have a part 3 where they are older or close to the age they are in Boruto and they open up a new world with new villains but make the Rinnegan as being the pinnacle and thats it , no Juubi, no Kaguya, none of that because it takes the power level to the next level 

instead of resurrecting old characters have more focus on naruto's generation and building them up like they did in the SRA, leave the Kages/Madara be you could have used these novels to tell each of the Kages story that would've been more interesting . 


Think about it if Sasuke kills evil Itachi and returns to the village as a hero it kills that horrible bring Sasuke back shit that basically shitted on Naruto's character in the Kages Arc 

Kneeling , fainting , getting punched in the face which were very low points for the character 

Really AL should have been the pinnacle of strength in this manga then it ends with characters like Naruto/Sasuke/Itachi/Sannin being top tier


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## VileNotice (Dec 29, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> The manga went downhill when they fucked up Sasuke's character progression by having Itachi be good instead of just keeping him a murderer who killed his clan , Sasuke never recovered and never had an actual direction/narrative that made sense he just blew with the wind into being whatever is necessary , one minute its destroy konoha , then its lets side with the 5 armies , then its lets destroy the 5 armies it just made his character indecisive and weak as hell ,
> 
> Obito and Nagato could have really been one character and once Naruto defeats him in the Pain Arc thats it for pt 2
> 
> it ends with Naruto as the hero and Sasuke after defeating the evil Itachi 2nd big bad comes back to the village.



Nah, Naruto and Sasuke had to fight in Part II. Part I literally ended with Sasuke defeating Naruto and deserting the village despite Naruto's desperation to bring him back. Sasuke returning to the village after beating Itachi would have been really anticlimactic... what the manga really needed was a second high-stakes Naruto and Sasuke battle that Naruto wins, but barely. We never really got that, because their final fight was more for show than anything.

I do agree that Sasuke ended up super indecisive, causing the whole manga to suffer. If Kishi was going to make Sasuke evil and crazy he should have kept him evil and crazy, at least until Naruto could beat some sense into him. Edo Itachi messed things up in that regard, being able to correct a glaring mistake his living self made as if glaring mistakes don't have repercussions. (Edo Itachi also turned Itachi, a seemingly morally-grey character, into a hero that he never should have been).


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## Palm Siberia (Dec 29, 2015)

The manga never went downhill everyone just became so negative Naruto is still a great series and you're all upset you didn't get what you wanted...


*Spoiler*: __ 



 The magical eyes seriously if you wanted to make a manga about wizards do it Kishi don't hide it behind ninjas. Also don't bring up things that you won't capitalize on later or drop characters like Anko, Kurenai, etc.


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## Milliardo (Dec 29, 2015)

HoroHoro said:


> Pain arc. Many consider it went downhill _after_ Pain arc, but I personally think many of the problematic concepts and themes that had negative impact on the whole story were introduced _during_ the Pain arc. First and foremost, the Child of Prophecy concept. It's generally just not a good message to deliver children regardless how much Kishimoto tries to convince us. Heroism can occur from any place and to any one, it's not just decided by preemptive birth. On top of that, it contradicts the thematics of Part 1 regarding hard work beating natural talent, defying fate and so forth. Plus, it destroyed one of the fundamentals of Naruto's character.
> 
> My second problem is the Cycle of Hatred concept and the quest for peace which Pain and Naruto preaches. At the time, people argued it added depth to Naruto's character, that it's a more meaningful goal than just seeking recognition. In hindsight though, Kishimoto didn't have the writing chops to handle real life and complex crisis like peace and conflicts, it ended up a massive dump on Naruto's character. He never had an answer, he lacked philosophical depth compared to the antagonists, he countered everything with "You're just like me, you're lonely, bruh."
> 
> ...


 This hits on some strong points that made the manga complete shit. The whole holy child crap and Naruto preaching false lies like he's going to change shit when he obviously didn't and never had an answer to begin with. Trying to write complex shit in a Shonen manga was foolish and beyond kishi's skill level.



Arthas said:


> The Chuunin Exams had the other rookies as obstacles to be overcome. Not the same allies on the same side.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> ...


In Bleach Ichigo's friends do jack shit it's all about the shinigami. Also Yu Yu Hakusho has a small cast and didn't show a wide variety of characters to begin with. I fail to see how they relate to your argument.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2015)

Honestly the Final Battle of Naruto should have been Sasuke vs Itachi, but replace Itachi w/ Naruto. I.E. Naruto fears Sasuke's hatred will allow Orochimaru to take hold of him, so he confronts Sasuke with the intention of exhausting Sasuke to force Orochimaru out (the same way Itachi did), and Naruto than using Shiki Fuujin to seal away Orochimaru after defeating Sasuke, freeing Sasuke from CS and Oro's influence.


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## Arthas (Dec 30, 2015)

Milliardo said:


> In Bleach Ichigo's friends do jack shit it's all about the shinigami. Also Yu Yu Hakusho has a small cast and didn't show a wide variety of characters to begin with. I fail to see how they relate to your argument.



Actually the most common complaint I see Bleach fans making is that Ichigo's friends do not do much. (Sort of a reverse Naruto arguement) Which is actually more legimate then most K12 fans since the Ichigo's nakama were touted as the main focus.

Also my point about Yu Yu Hakusho was the similarity it had with Naruto such that:

- Both had tournament arcs

- During tournament arcs the characters defeated and then befriended their opponents. (Some of them anyway)

- Then after the tournament arcs (where the Opponents were very 'strong' characters) the Opponents/Friends disappeared for most of the manga.

Yet Yu Yu Hakusho fans didn't exactly complain...Naruto fans did.


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## Turrin (Dec 30, 2015)

Arthas said:


> Actually the most common complaint I see Bleach fans making is that Ichigo's friends do not do much. (Sort of a reverse Naruto arguement) Which is actually more legimate then most K12 fans since the Ichigo's nakama were touted as the main focus.
> 
> Also my point about Yu Yu Hakusho was the similarity it had with Naruto such that:
> 
> ...


The difference is in Yu Yu Hakusho the characters from the tournament arcs weren't brought back very often if at all, so the story made it clear they were characters contained to that specific arc. While Kishimoto did the opposite in Naruto, bringing back most of Major the characters from the Chunin Exams right away in the Rescue Sasuke Arc, further building them up as more major characters. Than Kishi made it worse by bringing them back every arc in Part II, so as to say don't forget about these characters, but (aside from maybe Gaara and Shika), failed to deliver on them.

So with Naruto it very clearly feels like Kishimoto did intend for them to be main supporting characters in Part I, but than distinctly mishandled their development in Part II. While in the case of Yu Yu Hakusho it's clear that the tournament characters were never intended to be major supporting characters and their development in successive arcs was not mishandled as their wasn't suppose to be any.

And while you can certainly say introducing so many one off character still hurts Yu Yu Hakusho's plot and I won't necessarily disagree with you, it's nowhere near as bad as what Kishimoto did.

Edit: I should also note that Kishi trolled major characters too like Sakura, to an extent Yu Yu Hakusho never came to trolling main Yusuke Teammates.


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## MS81 (Dec 30, 2015)

I always like that the main characters in Hunter x Hunter/ Yuyu Hakusho weren't the strongest by the end of the manga. Shit rurounin kenshin master was still better than him towards the end.


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## Rukia Kurosaki (Dec 30, 2015)

First decline: Rescue Gaara arc to the Immortals arc.

It then picked up with the Hebi/Jiraiya/Itachi/Pain arcs.

Second decline: Post-Pain arc - It never reached the same level again.


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## Pompey magnus (Dec 30, 2015)

alright My first post. I think The real decline started with the very start of shippuden. The rescue Garra arc was just okay in my opinion. The Sai and Sasuke arc thereafter made some parts of the war arc look even good for example. The really first truly enjoyable arc in the second half would be the immortals rac and even that lacked some of the majic that made the series really good in the first place. Then the series focused on the uchiha and their family issues, and we all know what happened from there. Kishimoto simply failed to adequately develop the world and characters he created anf tried to rush everything in the last arc which made it shit of course.


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## Raiden (Dec 30, 2015)

Also true I guess that part two was generally a mess that had bursts of potential.

.

My attitude with the manga has always been to look for the positives. Was able to do that successfully until the epilogue at the end.


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## Zensuki (Dec 30, 2015)

ChuckNorris902 said:


> For me it was when all the values of the series shifted. At the beginning, the story was about overcoming weakness with strength and determination. Though the message was a bit cliched, it was still better than what the series devolved into. By the end, all that mattered was if you were born with the sharingan or rinnegan or some other innate ability that allowed you to just steamroll everyone that stood in your way.



No the moral has always been about perseverance and it stands till the end of the series,


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## Arthas (Dec 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The difference is in Yu Yu Hakusho the characters from the tournament arcs weren't brought back very often if at all, so the story made it clear they were characters contained to that specific arc. While Kishimoto did the opposite in Naruto, bringing back most of Major the characters from the Chunin Exams right away in the Rescue Sasuke Arc, further building them up as more major characters. Than Kishi made it worse by bringing them back every arc in Part II, so as to say don't forget about these characters, but (aside from maybe Gaara and Shika), failed to deliver on them.
> 
> So with Naruto it very clearly feels like Kishimoto did intend for them  to be main supporting characters in Part I, but than distinctly  mishandled their development in Part II. While in the case of Yu Yu  Hakusho it's clear that the tournament characters were never intended to  be major supporting characters and their development in successive arcs  was not mishandled as their wasn't suppose to be any.



A few of them were brought back for the Rescue Sasuke arc but even then they had their fifteen minutes and resolved their small  character-arcs and part one ended.

While Kishi may have brought them back in Part 2, you are neglecting a key factor in that they were members of the same village which necessitated them meeting Naruto. The Yu Yu Hakusho characters could disapear while the author focused on other people but the K12 had to show up in the village. 

Tell me this, if the K12 had not appeared in the village at all in Part 2 wouldn't people be more annoyed? That was probably why they appeared and then were placed in the background. That does not mean that Kishi wanted or thought of giving them full blown character arcs.  



> And while you can certainly say introducing so many one off character still hurts Yu Yu Hakusho's plot and I won't necessarily disagree with you, it's nowhere near as bad as what Kishimoto did.
> 
> Edit: I should also note that Kishi trolled major characters too like Sakura, to an extent Yu Yu Hakusho never came to trolling main Yusuke Teammates.



Thing is with any tournament arc you have to expect characters to appear and then later become background characters. There are too many characters to give major arcs too.

I agree with you about Sakura though.


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## Patrick (Dec 30, 2015)

To be honest it first started it's decline after the death of Hiruzen. His death made Orochimaru the strongest person in the world. For any Shounen it's necessary to have the strongest in the world be a villain at the point of the protagonists Prime so he has to surpass him. Great now this was handled casually, Oro even got a handicap that he had to take care off to truely become the undisputed strongest. This would take time and would allow for the heroes to grow by doing missions in and solving conflicts in the other countries, this would in turn also have done a better job at world building and showcasing the more political side of the shinobi world.

Snap back to reality. Kishi introduced the Akatsuki, bit of a bummer since that eliminated the chance for more in depth world building in exchange for a rather generic villain group that had no idea what it was doing itself. Alright, Kishi probably thought himself not up to the challenge of making a more complex world or his editors wanted a clearer villain group instead of two neutral forces going at it. It's a bit shitty all in all but not the worst part about it, no not at all. The absolute worst part was Itachi's introduction. The character itself is fine really, however it was the direct cause of powerscaling and multiple retcons (mainly on the Hokages suddenly being *much* stronger than originally shown). There was no need to introduce any character stronger than Orochimaru for the entire series to give the huge and interesting support cast time to shine. We could have seen Chuunin level opponents for the rookies and Jounin level opponents for the teachers, who could still have pushed these guys to the limit. But nope we get a guy who is stronger than anyone introduced prior into the story and he himself admitted he wasn't even the strongest in the organisation. Causing the good side to be in need of a massive power boost.

The introduction of Itachi literally destroyed the balance in power Kishi had just skillfully set up only a couple of chapters prior. Did I mention that next to the absurd powerscaling that happened because of him that he also started the escalation of eye powers?


However, it didn't instantly become complete shit because of that. In my opinion the manga went from great to just good from that moment onwards. The point that really fucked it up was Nagato reviving everyone he killed that day, the story never recovered after that and it became a big joke.


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## Vivo Diez (Dec 30, 2015)

It went on a steady, slow decline since the start of part 2. Then it jumped the shark with the Pain arc.


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## The810kid (Dec 30, 2015)

Arthas said:


> The Chuunin Exams had the other rookies as obstacles to be overcome. Not the same allies on the same side.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> ...



These are the worst examples and comparisons. Ichigos friends haven't mattered in a long time and Yu Yu Hakusho has a much smaller cast than any of the big 3 Naruto, bleach, and One Piece. From the first major arc Team Urameshi is formed. Naruto's class mates can't be compared to the dark tournament opponents who were used as one arc opponents. Most of the Konoha 11 were introduced before the chunin exams they obviously were meant to be more than just backgroud Kishi just fucked up developing them.


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## Ghoztly (Dec 30, 2015)

The second the Rinnegan was revealed this series began to die for me.

The prophecy shit was god awful too.

And then the transmigrant BS.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 30, 2015)

> Nah, Naruto and Sasuke had to fight in Part II. Part I literally ended with Sasuke defeating Naruto and deserting the village despite Naruto's desperation to bring him back. Sasuke returning to the village after beating Itachi would have been really anticlimactic... what the manga really needed was a second high-stakes Naruto and Sasuke battle that Naruto wins, but barely. We never really got that, because their final fight was more for show than anything.



They really didn't lets be real the fight at the end of the manga although forced was inevitable but if you think about it its terrible writing they are fighting side by side putting in work then all of a sudden , I'm evil lets fight and lets give the readers the Naruto vs Sasuke pt II it  could've been done in an epilogue like 2-3 yrs later where Kakashi is looking to step down as Hokage and Sasuke and Naruto are up for nomination , remember after this there is no Kage Arc , No trying to capture Bee so Sasuke is seen as a hero who defeated Itachi just like Naruto is a hero who defeated Nagato they fight and Naruto wins the end 




> I do agree that Sasuke ended up super indecisive, causing the whole manga to suffer. If Kishi was going to make Sasuke evil and crazy he should have kept him evil and crazy, at least until Naruto could beat some sense into him. Edo Itachi messed things up in that regard, being able to correct a glaring mistake his living self made as if glaring mistakes don't have repercussions. (Edo Itachi also turned Itachi, a seemingly morally-grey character, into a hero that he never should have been).



Edo Itachi took some of Sasuke's and some of the rookies hero feats , Sasuke could've ended Edo Tensei and defeated Kabuto ect


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## Skaddix (Dec 31, 2015)

Its hard because it was a slow decline with many bumps and drops...unlike Bleach which was pretty much instant after the Rescue Rukia Arc with a small spike for the flashback....Naruto was kinda rushed, character development got worse, Quick Bijuu Capturing Fights, Rushed Akatsuki takedowns, Post Pain Fight Reezs thanks to massive flip, Itachi Heel Flip...I dont know what annoyed me the most was Tobi blabbing his frakking plan during the Kage Summit and the quick resolution to the Danzo as Kage Arc...I was expecting a Civil War in Konoha with the other Kages backing factions instead nope Sasuke ffs him up and on to Edo Tenseis which was super annoying besides seeing some of the old Kages and Seven Swordsman of Mist comeback.


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## Kanki (Dec 31, 2015)

The mood here changed a little at the end of the Pain Invasion, but in general things didn't become negative until _during_ the final war, around the time edo Itachi arrived.

It's popular to bash Naruto as an overall series but it was still very popular on here until late on, despite how history seems to have been re-written.


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## Megu-Nee (Dec 31, 2015)

ChuckNorris902 said:


> For me it was when all the values of the series shifted. At the beginning, the story was about overcoming weakness with strength and determination. Though the message was a bit cliched, it was still better than what the series devolved into. By the end, all that mattered was if you were born with the sharingan or rinnegan or some other innate ability that allowed you to just steamroll everyone that stood in your way.


yup. normal ninja can never amount to anything like naruto/sasuke


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## Turrin (Dec 31, 2015)

Arthas said:


> A few of them were brought back for the Rescue Sasuke arc but even then they had their fifteen minutes and resolved their small  character-arcs and part one ended.
> .


I think your trivializing the rookies way too much here man. The fact of the matter is the Chunin Exams Arc and the Rescue Sasuke Arc, were the two major story arcs of the first half of the story, both of which the Rookies were heavily involved in both in terms of the plot and in terms of the impact on the main battles within those arcs. That is vastly different than a character like Rando from YuYu Hakusho, who while impactful within Genkai's tournament, was one and done, remaining completely absent from the rest of the story. I guarantee you if Rando had a change of heart and say appeared as a main member of Team Yusuke during the Dark Tournament Arc, that readers would also expect more from Rando going forward, and it would be disappointing if the story than totally ignored him or stand around doing nothing in future arcs.



> hile Kishi may have brought them back in Part 2, you are neglecting a key factor in that they were members of the same village which necessitated them meeting Naruto. The Yu Yu Hakusho characters could disapear while the author focused on other people but the K12 had to show up in the village.


Meeting Naruto isn't the same thing as being put on the same missions and teams as Naruto. Lee, Neji, and Tenten didn't just meet Naruto in the Suna-Arc, they were sent on the same mission, but ended up being utilized for next to nothing. Same thing with Ino and Choji during the Immortals Arc. Same thing with Kiba, Shino, and Hinata during the Uchiha Brothers Arc. Same thing with Sakura, in well most arcs...



> Tell me this, if the K12 had not appeared in the village at all in Part 2 wouldn't people be more annoyed? That was probably why they appeared and then were placed in the background. That does not mean that Kishi wanted or thought of giving them full blown character arcs.


People would have complained more because they were built up in Part I, to be more than ancillary characters and than directly put up agains the same enemies and missions as Team 7, only to stand around and do relatively nothing . 

Inversely, if the Rookies did not appear in the Rescue Sasuke Arc and were completely contained to the Chunin Exams Arc, besides small cameos here or there, no one would be that upset if they again only appeared in Part II for small cameo's. At least I would not be.



> Thing is with any tournament arc you have to expect characters to appear and then later become background characters. There are too many characters to give major arcs too.


Then don't build up that many characters and put them on the same missions as the heroes to only stand around and do nothing.


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## Plague (Dec 31, 2015)

After the Pain Invasion. 

Shit got boring af, then the 10 Tails fight took up 1/3rd of the damn manga. It was a mess. 

To be honest it was moving really slow since the beginning, but it went from limping speed to "barely conscious crawl" speed after Pain.


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## copydog123 (Dec 31, 2015)

the day kishi thought of creating the character Obito (or more specifically Tobi)


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## Xhominid (Dec 31, 2015)

For me, it was actually 3 spots in which it became obvious that the manga was slowly unable to bear it's own weight.

1. The tail end of the Pain Invasion Arc.
While yes, Kishimoto did bring in the Cycle of Revenge here(well it was actually done with Sasuke when Kakashi talked to him about it and then done with Shikamaru, but it was truly a main theme at this point) and the Sage of the Six Paths, the real main issue people have with the Arc in general isn't those, but how Nagato and Naruto pretty much spelled the future of the manga in a nutshell.
Naruto pretty much gives no answer to Nagato's claims only reinforce the fact that Kishimoto had no writing chops for Forgiveness and the Cycle of Revenge(since he had Shikamaru actually kill Hidan for this exact purpose and not go crazy like Sasuke did) since he blatantly try to make the latter 100% evil when in truth like Forgiveness, it's not a concept you can get down to just Black and White.

2. The Jyubi
Honestly...I find it funny that most people actually ignore this one despite how it pretty much changed the series and utterly tore down the mythos AND it wasn't even foreshadowed and came just as badly(if not worse) as most Asspulls in Bleach people like bringing up. Like seriously, we are supposed to believe that the 9 Bijuu that we knew till now that was pretty much sentient beings...came into being from a singular powerful being that was never mentioned before that happens to fit with the barely there Sage of the Six Paths? Like seriously, the only time you can get hints of it is in *fan fiction*...that's very bad.

3. Madara curbstomping the 5 Kages & Itachi's final time in the Spotlight
Honestly...this was the ultimate tipping point for me. The end of the Pain Invasion was bad but Kishimoto could improve, the Jyubi literally came out of his ass, but Asspulls and DEMs are commonplace in Shounen but this? This not only took the cake but shat on it, covered it up then force-fed it to me. Honestly I had no problems at all with Madara's return nor Itachi coming back as an Edo...at first. Madara was honestly the best opponent for the 5 Kages and the theme of "The New Surpasses the Old" while Itachi could easily support Sasuke into defeating Kabuto(though I wanted Sasuke to defeat both Kabuto AND Itachi who got reined back into control to show how superior Sasuke has become)...neither happened and it only confirmed that Kishimoto completely lost anything worth of care in his own manga.

Madara was literally using abilities and powers that might as well made him a Bleach/DBZ character in the Naruto setting(at that time) and pretty much pulled new, perfect abilities for every counter the 5 Kages made to the point it became completely unbelievable. What made it worse that Madara had the perfect way to lose(His arrogance)...and it never happens, instead, he effortlessly defeats the 5 Kage and pretty much becomes the ridiculous unstoppable force that honestly ruined any care I have given to the War Arc in general.

And Itachi...pretty much stole the spotlight from Sasuke, made Kabuto who was literally a hodgepodge of broken look like an honest nobody, used the crowner of perfect abilities to use on someone because DEM/Asspull and pretty much leaves as a saint...

Honestly that was when the manga was just completely gone to me and Naruto Gaiden was pretty much kicking salt and dirt into an infected wound.


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## Skaddix (Dec 31, 2015)

The K12 falling to the wayside makes sense...come on they werent all going to scale to godhood...from what we have seen most generations have like 3-4 top tier ninjas in the village


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## Punished Kiba (Dec 31, 2015)

^^^^

You don't have to give them Haxed, Overpowered abilities to give them spotlight and development


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## Skaddix (Dec 31, 2015)

Yes but this is Shonen and that means u need stronger and stronger villians...the only way you can keep them around is more team fights and more brains in fights which with a few exceptions wasnt really significant in this manga.


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## HunterxH (Dec 31, 2015)

Skaddix said:


> *Yes but this is Shonen and that means u need stronger and stronger villians...*the only way you can keep them around is more team fights and more brains in fights which with a few exceptions wasnt really significant in this manga.



Wrong. It mean you need smarter and smarter writing....which Kishi never gave us since the tail-end of Part I. He couldn't even be consistent with his own narrative.


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## Xhominid (Dec 31, 2015)

HunterxH said:


> Wrong. It mean you need smarter and smarter writing....which Kishi never gave us since the tail-end of Part I. He couldn't even be consistent with his own narrative.



This. You don't need to have stronger villains to make your characters matter. No shonen ever needs it, authors sadly believe that escalating the villains is all that matters when that never truly needs to be the case.

If you want your characters to matter, make them matter. It doesn't need to be a fight, it can be anything honestly.


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## Megu-Nee (Dec 31, 2015)

Skaddix said:


> Yes but this is Shonen and that means u need stronger and stronger villians...the only way you can keep them around is more team fights and more brains in fights which with a few exceptions wasnt really significant in this manga.


like the moon people


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## Palm Siberia (Dec 31, 2015)

Seriously what happened to ordinary ninja providing problems not people with magic eyes or "aliens" being the big bads.


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## Keishin (Dec 31, 2015)

Xhominid said:


> This. You don't need to have stronger villains to make your characters matter. No shonen ever needs it, authors sadly believe that escalating the villains is all that matters when that never truly needs to be the case.
> 
> If you want your characters to matter, make them matter. It doesn't need to be a fight, it can be anything honestly.



But the side characters in Naruto never served any special purpose in the narrative. They're just ninjas who do missions. None of them were written individually, they're always a group of let's say 1 girl, 2 boys and a mastersenei, and someone always has a sad past. There's no way you can really expect them to get any real purpose when they were written like that from the beginning. I think it was obvious that they were all going to gather to help Naruto and Sasuke defeat the big bad during the final attack. I guess the big semi predictable surprise was that the final fight dragged on from Juubi to Juubito to Madara to Kaguya to Sasuke because Kishimoto felt the need to pander to fan demands and had to revive characters just to give them closure (once again).


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## Zef (Dec 31, 2015)

Palm Siberia said:


> Seriously what happened to ordinary ninja providing problems not people with magic eyes or "aliens" being the big bads.



Non of the villain's with the exception of maybe Zabuza & Haku are "normal". Orochimaru & Akatsuki were the main antagonist in Part 1 & 2 and they were portrayed either as immortals or monsters.


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## Skaddix (Dec 31, 2015)

Haku has a Bloodline Ability, he aint normal...Zabuza was the only normal. Orochimaru was normal enough I guess in Part 1 since he wasnt really using super hax bloodline stuff at that point (unless u count the Edo Tenseis) and only really got seriously injured because he chose to stand and get hit


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## Aldric (Jan 3, 2016)

decline started at the end of the chuunin exams

search for tsunade was ok but nowhere near as good as what came before and the rescue sasuke arc was easily as awful as anything in part 2, introducing most of the issues that'd plague the manga till the end: dead people not staying dead, terrible antagonists, senseless melodrama masquerading as heartwarming relationships and of course the focus of the narrative shifting into an endless uchiha centered clusterfuck


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## ~M~ (Jan 3, 2016)

Final war arc


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## raizen28 (Jan 3, 2016)

Kage Summit


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## Sword Sage (Jan 3, 2016)

It went downhill because of Sasuke stealing most of the story and Konoha 11 never given much development since part 1.


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## Zensuki (Jan 3, 2016)

Sword Sage said:


> It went downhill because of Sasuke stealing most of the story and Konoha 11 never given much development since part 1.



Sasuke was "stealing the story" from the beginning of the manga though.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Jan 3, 2016)

Page 1.


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## TRN (Jan 3, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> Sasuke was "stealing the story" from the beginning of the manga though.



I guess thats why he ran away in part 1 for more power


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## Deana (Jan 3, 2016)

1. The child of destiny plot point is where I started to lose my faith in the actual story. It put me at odds with the character Naruto. I loved that guy and used to happily  put him in the top 5 of my favorite anime characters list but after part II the thrill was being stripped from me. 

2. The Naruto and Sasuke bond didn't EVER live up to the hype the actual story was trying to make it be in Shippuden. To put the series back on the level of fondness that I once had it, I pretend as if the actual bond that carried the story (throughout part 1- 3) was the one between Naruto and Kurama. The manga does open and close with narrative about the relationship between the boy and his fox demon which gives my relationship choice some weight. 

Since the Naruto and Sasuke friendship is actually normal in part 1 (almost friends but mostly rivals) and 3 (friends), I can almost ignore the fact that part 2 made a hilarious mockery out of what was actually there in part 1.


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## Sasuke_Bateman (Jan 3, 2016)

After the Itachi fight, everything after that was horrible, you killed your parents but you are good! Child of destiny, reincarnations etc   ...Madara v the Kages was the only thing I enjoyed, everything else was rubbish.


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## Raiden (Jan 3, 2016)

Deana said:


> Since the Naruto and Sasuke friendship is actually normal in part 1 (almost friends but mostly rivals) and 3 (friends), I can almost ignore the fact that part 2 made a hilarious mockery out of what was actually there in part 1.



Right. It was a decent story, but it didn't have to stretch the entire damn part two. I think even having Sasuke come back after he "defeated" Itachi would have helped tremendously. Team Seven's dynamic together carried the story through out the end.


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## Xhominid (Jan 3, 2016)

Palm Siberia said:


> Seriously what happened to ordinary ninja providing problems not people with magic eyes or "aliens" being the big bads.



I don't even have a problem with Bloodline Limits and such if it wasn't the fucking Sharingan show...

Why do whenever we have Forbidden Jutsu, it basically becomes pointless because there's RARELY a reason for it to actually be forbidden(Shadow Clone Jutsu CAN be seen as Forbidden...but past Hiruzen, it's never really shown how terrible the cost of it can really be for Naruto, especially if it's spammed and Edo Tensei might as well be a cheap plot device).

I would have loved to see Susann'O as a Forbidden Jutsu instead of another in a long line of Sharingan BS.


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## Seto Kaiba (Jan 3, 2016)

Remember when Kakashi said that the stronger the jutsu the more risk it poses to the user, as a warning as to why Naruto should only use FRS as a last resort?


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Jan 3, 2016)

But everything changed when the Senjutsu appeared.

Besides the stronger the body becomes the less likely Naruto will get harmed by his own jutsu.

Or his control improved to the point he doesn't get that backlash to himself.


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## pricklepantz (Jan 4, 2016)

If you think there's decline, it follows the Normal distribution curve lol... but to me the pace was just right, no problem with those ... Kaguya final arc is excellent


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## Raniero (Jan 4, 2016)

Earlier than the Pain arc. The beginning of part 2 onward wasn't particularly good.


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## MS81 (Jan 4, 2016)

Because Kishi made Kakashi Hokage without giving him a new powerful jutsu.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 15, 2016)

*After the Land of Waves arc.* The inconsistencies started piling up rather quickly. But while this looked to the audience as a story that was still trying to find its stride, with the benefit of hindsight we can say it has always stayed that way. It would forever be a story that never quite knew what it wanted to be; what is was about.

If we look at it in real-time, the problems became really noticeable by *the resolutions of subplots that started in Part 1.*
 Was Orochimaru going to possess Sasuke? Would Naruto be able to save him?
 Will Sasuke manage to kill Itachi? And at what cost?
 How will Naruto be saved from those evil Biju catchers?
Orochimaru was defeated by the blank stare of a Sharingan. I know people defended this resolution for the longest time because Sasuke needed to deal with Itachi---and there's some truth in that. But the fact Team 7 did not play a role made the entire subplot meaningless. It also revealed that Team 7 had not even progressed enough to deserve to play a role, so the entire time-skip was meaningless for Naruto, Sakura and Kakashi.

Sasuke did not kill Itachi; Itachi committed suicide-by-proxy. Enough said. Afterwards, Sasuke's character changed with the prevailing winds. Any consequences to his life choices were swept under the rug. Turning his character arc into an anaemic one.

Other than Gaara, we didn't really see Akatsuki capture Biju. Naruto was useless against Deidara. The Hidan and Kakuzu arc was prematurely abandoned in favour of a Sasuke-centered arc and Naruto needed a training arc before his first defeat of an already wounded Akatsuki villain. Many of the fights against Akatsuki were problematic: either short or anti-climactic or both. The subplot was spoiled when it was revealed that Obito was Nagato's boss, turning Nagato into a minor boss. The revelations about the Rikudo etc. also subsumed a threat against Naruto into a centuries spanning conflict revolving around the Uchiha clan. It left Naruto and Nagato little to talk about, and it also required Konoha to be resurrected.

Of course, the problems with those resolutions originates with the need to extend the story-line. So we can also look at subplots that have existed far longer. *And if there's one thing the manga never recovered from, it has to be the defection of Sasuke.* Even now, Sasuke is wandering the narutoverse instead of living inside Konoha.




martryn said:


> I'm ok with the Sakura and Chiyo vs. Sasori fight.  After that, though, with the introduction of brand new characters like *Sai and Yamato,* everything hit the fan.  My argument was why introduce basically an entirely new cast when you've got a great cast of characters to work with from part I already.





Godaime Tsunade said:


> At the time I liked the introduction of *Sai and Yamato,* it didn't bother me. It was once 200 chapters had gone by and they had received literally zero development that I started to view them as poorly written characters. In fact, any character introduced post-Pein arc is poorly written.
> 
> And, as others have said, post-Pein arc is when the manga got shitty. I actually thought the Pein fight itself was kinda bad, but I know some people liked it.
> 
> Some parts of Kage Summit Arc and War Arc were good, but most of it sucked.




I'd say it was the one-two punch of first introducing Sai and Yamato---then introducing Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu. And second, noticing that the later were far more relevant. And none of them measured up to the Konoha 12.




Divinstrosity said:


> If Itachi was the second to final, and Nagato/Pain the final villain, I think this manga could have went out with some dignity. But, the way it dragged on was so horrible.
> 
> I thought Obito as the AL was horrible. He was always planning something, or doing something, but  never really doing anything. That dragged on for so long that by the time they revealed who he was, I really didn't care.




Agreed.




Zensuki said:


> No the moral has always been about perseverance and it stands till the end of the series,




Agreed.


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## Raiden (Jan 15, 2016)

Eh I think Obito's reveal as the AL broke the forum, so that was good. But the length of the fight from that point was nauseating. And the angst really killed the whole thing.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jan 15, 2016)

Yep. After the Pain Arc. 

The fights REALLY went downhill. Became less about tactics and skill and more about big finishers and DBZ style inflation.

And the story became a lot less interesting. Not that there weren't some standout moments after the Pain Arc. But they were few and far between.


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## Suigetsu (Jan 16, 2016)

During the Pain Arc and most notably after it is when it went downhill like a bullet train.


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## HunterxH (Jan 17, 2016)

I said it once and I'll say it again, Sasuke leaving was the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to the story. It's not like he was such a "great" character or anything, but he was the glue that held Team Seven together. Sakura loved him and Naruto wanted to be acknowledged by him. 

Both of their thoughts began and ended with Sasuke, and the story began to be about how Sasuke could cope with his tragic past whilst he found his way as a shinobi of the leaf. Instead he ran away, which was completely unnecessary, and the story was never able to recover from it. I knew that Sasuke leaving would be the beginning of the end, because all in all it was just bad story-telling. 

You can't write off the only character that made the main cast worth watching.


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## Baroxio (Jan 18, 2016)

The manga started showing kinks at the start of Part 2. There was absolutely no reason for Naruto to come back after 3 years with no real improvements. All he got was a bigger Rasengan, and more Kyuubi power he couldn't even control. In comparison, Sasuke gained super speed and the ability to stream his Chidori around his body to paralyze people, or through his sword to increase it's cutting power, among other things. Hell, even Sakura came back as the second best medical ninja in the world with the added bonus of Super strength and some respectable fighting skills when compared to her Part 1 self. A lot of bullshit had to happen, just to get Naruto back on track power wise.

But ignoring that, the real indicator of this manga's decline was Sakura, who declined along with it. Sakura had a high point in the Sasori battle, but since then she fell and never recovered. She needed to be saved because she hit her head and fell unconscious, she needed to be saved from Sasuke's attack, and she was completely useless to the point where she GOES BACK ON HER PLEDGE to help Naruto bring back Sasuke. By the end of it all, she tries to stop Sasuke with her words, not with action, and gets genjutsu-stabbed for her trouble. Yet despite that, she spinelessly waits on him no matter what abuses she suffers, like WTF?

Do you know what SHOULD have happened with Sakura's character? She should have trained under Lee. Not only would her taijutsu prowess greatly increased, but she might have been able to unlock the Hidden Gates. Combining their power with Byakugo's ability to never die would have allowed Sakura to stay competitive with Naruto and Sasuke even until the end of the manga. Pairings should have been an aside thing, not the full premise of Sakura's character.

Speaking of which, I think there's a lot of the story that could have changed and become more streamlined. I also don't like the inclusion of Megazords, rather I think that both Naruto and Sasuke should have condensed their Megazords to superforms that gave them incredible offense and defense. That way we could at least still have decent taijutsu battles and a perhaps more realistic scale of things. 

And yes, the child of prophecy thing completely shit on Naruto's character and shouldn't have been introduced.


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> The manga started showing kinks at the start of Part 2. There was absolutely no reason for Naruto to come back after 3 years with no real improvements. All he got was a bigger Rasengan, and more Kyuubi power he couldn't even control. In comparison, Sasuke gained super speed and the ability to stream his Chidori around his body to paralyze people, or through his sword to increase it's cutting power, among other things. Hell, even Sakura came back as the second best medical ninja in the world with the added bonus of Super strength and some respectable fighting skills when compared to her Part 1 self. A lot of bullshit had to happen, just to get Naruto back on track power wise.


People bitch about Naruto's improvements over the time-skip, but to me Naruto's growth there was thee most realistic period of growth for any of the characters in the manga. He got better at the basics where he was so sorely lacking and managed to improve an already very powerful Jutsu even further (Oddoma Rasengan). Sakura's growth was also fine, she was not the second best Medical Ninja, not by a mile, she was good at brewing antidotes, but in every other regard i'd still take Shizune and Kabuto over her. 

The problem was that kishi made the villains too stronger, rushing Naruto and Sakura into fighting Akatsuki Members and making Sasuke's growth ridiculously far ahead of Naruto's. Than he had to super speed up Naruto's growth in the Wind-Arc and Pain-Arc, to get him back up to Sasuke's level and being able to compete against the villains. And than Kishi completely forgot about Sakura's growth post Suna Arc. 

Kishimoto should have slowed down and had a couple arcs post TS where Naruto and Company were fighting Zabuza level Ninja


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> I said it once and I'll say it again, Sasuke leaving was the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to the story. It's not like he was such a "great" character or anything, but he was the glue that held Team Seven together. Sakura loved him and Naruto wanted to be acknowledged by him.


Sasuke leaving is partly what made Naruto such a great manga in Part I, so I can't disagree with this more. The emotion and impact of VOTE Round 1 can't be done away with, as it stands as one of the best battles and moments in Anime/Manga history. With that said Kishimoto probably would have been better off if he had Sasuke come back into the fold again in Early PII, like have the Penis Arc happen as the first arc of Part II, and have Sasuke absorb Orochimaru at the end, rejoining w/ Team 7, but planning to secretly use them and Konoha to get his chance against Itachi.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 25, 2016)

Honestly? Naruto was never anything spectacular in terms of plot and characters. Even back in Part 1 although, not to the same extent as Part 2. Naruto has always been a generic mainstream shonen manga. It's decent in Part 1, but nothing groundbreaking, although it slowly went downhill after the Chunin Exams arc. There's nothing in Naruto that isn't better executed in other manga series. Part 1 was only good because his first editor, Kosuke Yahagi, basically dictated the plot and thematics.

As to why Naruto fails plot-wisely, it's a pretty long-winded post, but I'll try my best to formulate myself:

Naruto lacks a grand struggle that give characters a purpose: In Attack on Titan, there's an imminent threat to humanity. In One Piece, there's a corrupt government to overthrow, people to be liberated. These grand struggles affect everyone, it makes it easier to include an ensemble cast into the overall plot, and the eventual triumph would be a meaningful closure for everyone, not just the protagonist alone. 

Now, look at Naruto, where're the struggles? Seeking recognition is Naruto's personal goal. Apprehending Sasuke is Naruto's personal pursuit, it's none of anyone else's concern. Only when Konoha was assaulted, then the Konoha characters have a common purpose. That's why Kishimoto had troubles writing the Konoha 11 characters into the story, there's no persistent threat and evil that can catch all the characters' attention in the plot. Of course, not every series needs to be an epic about changing the world like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Dragon Ball and Hunter x Hunter doesn't have a linear plot, they're composed of sagas. But the thing is, Naruto pretends to be an epic about war and peace, and it tries to pass off its asspull-esque mastermind food chain as a "linear plot". In reality, it's just a series composed of disjointed story arcs involving small groups of villains, short-term threats, and shallow personal pursuits.

Naruto's climax is disconnected with the build-up: For the majority of the series, the villains' backstories shed lights on the problems in the shinobi system, which made Naruto vow on his life to bring peace to the ninja world. These all felt like a build-up to a climax where the protagonist and other ninjas would confront a villain that is the manifestation of what's with the shinobi system and the protagonist would offer an answer, and the ninjas would come to realization that they need to change. But fuck no, we got Kaguya who got nothing to do with the system whose objectives didn't make an iota sense. 

The premise of the story is shallow and limiting in nature: The protagonist's goal is to get people to acknowledge him and become Hokage. To make this occur, Kishimoto did two things which would make up most of the plot in Naruto, and they're both restricting to plot development, character development and world building. First of all, putting Konoha in perils, so that Naruto could play the savior to the damsel in distress that was Konoha. Two of the biggest arcs are about Konoha being under attack, the Chunin Exams and Pain arc. There's another attack that didn't materialize: Sasuke.

Honestly? These save Konoha arcs got old pretty quick, and once Naruto got acknowledged in Pain arc, there's no room to expand the story. Also, since Naruto only wanted the citizens of Konoha to acknowledge him and become Hokage, there's little to no point in creating arcs that take the protagonist outside Konoha or give him a challenge that wouldn't earn him recognition. This very much limited possibilities in plot ideas.

If you look at One Piece and Hunter x Hunter, both of their retrospective protagonist's goals are searching for something or someone. This setup allows much more options for plot concepts, take One Piece for example, every island in midst of a journey is a different world, with different issues, with a whole new cast of characters that would interact with the Straw Hat Pirates. In Naruto's case, we just kept seeing Konoha characters keeping Konoha at bay, and exclaim some corny lines about protecting their homeland. 

Second, like HunterxH said, making Sasuke leave Konoha, so that Naruto could chase him for acknowledgement. This is what Naruto did for the majority of the series, but it’s a personal pursuit that only matters to Naruto himself, not the ninja world on a grand scale.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> People bitch about Naruto's improvements over the time-skip, but to me Naruto's growth there was thee most realistic period of growth for any of the characters in the manga. He got better at the basics where he was so sorely lacking and managed to improve an already very powerful Jutsu even further (Oddoma Rasengan). Sakura's growth was also fine, she was not the second best Medical Ninja, not by a mile, she was good at brewing antidotes, but in every other regard i'd still take Shizune and Kabuto over her.




Agreed.




Turrin said:


> The problem was that kishi made the villains too stronger, rushing Naruto and Sakura into fighting Akatsuki Members and making Sasuke's growth ridiculously far ahead of Naruto's. Than he had to super speed up Naruto's growth in the Wind-Arc and Pain-Arc, to get him back up to Sasuke's level and being able to compete against the villains. And than Kishi completely forgot about Sakura's growth post Suna Arc.
> 
> Kishimoto should have slowed down and had a couple arcs post TS where Naruto and Company were fighting Zabuza level Ninja




The biggest problem was Kishimoto deciding to undermine Naruto's growth by having him go berserk and use the Kyuubi's power. Another problem is that Naruto didn't achieve anything for the first two arcs of Part 2, while Sasuke was so ridiculously far ahead of Naruto that the entire time-skip seems a waste.

Naruto needed to be capable to defend himself against Akatsuki and similar villains. That would allow Naruto to defeat an Akatsuki member with the help of elite teammates. Which is exactly what Sakura did when she helped Chiyo defeat Sasori. Which his exactly what Naruto never did because Kishimoto couldn't be bothered.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> People bitch about Naruto's improvements over the time-skip, but to me Naruto's growth there was thee most realistic period of growth for any of the characters in the manga. He got better at the basics where he was so sorely lacking and managed to improve an already very powerful Jutsu even further (Oddoma Rasengan).



More realistic than Rock Lee and Might Guy? I don't think so. 



HoroHoro said:


> I've read Part 1, and re-read it again last summer just for the sake of nostalgia and I still think Naruto is a prodigy. Naruto was never an underdog like some fans are trying to imply. He learned and mastered a top-secret classified technique like Shadow Clone in a day at the beginning of the series, he learned the Summoning Jutsu and managed to summon Gamabunta in just two days, he learned the Rasengan in one month. In Part 2 he learned how to manipulate wind chakra and went on his way to create an instant kill technique like the Rasenshuriken shortly after. He perfected the Sage Mode in a few months, something Jiraiya never managed in his lifetime. Naruto is a Uzumaki, the Jinchuriki to the second-strongest Biju, he has the third-highest chakra reserves in the series after Kaguya and Hagoromo. He's also the Child of Prophecy and was literally destined to be one of the strongest characters in the series by birth due to reincarnation nonsense. He's supposed to be untalented, and make it up with hardwork. It?s just a crusade, Neji and Sasuke only had bloodline powers, Naruto on the other hand had both bloodline and Biju advantage. The fandom and the long-time fans who has abandoned the series a long time ago has been dissing Naruto as a character, calling him a fake underdog. (i.e, King of Lightning, Code Provider, etc)
> 
> You want to talk about a _real_ underdog character? Then look at Rock Lee and Might Guy. They had no natural talent whatsoever and were looked down upon for it, but they never gave up. They just kept going, working so, so hard to get where they are at. Harder than Naruto or any other character ever did. _"Run 500 laps around the village backwards on your hands!"_ Like anyone else could even do something like that by the end. Not only that, but their characters aren't whoring for respect from their peers in almost every panel like Naruto does. They get poked fun of all the time, and they couldn't care less. See _that_ is an underdog you can respect, even if it's kinda flat as a character. Not like Naruto Uzumaki and the atrocious Team 7 who got everything handed to them on a silver platter.
> 
> In the end, Naruto was ultimately just the most special snowflake in the history of snow.


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## Lucy75 (Jan 25, 2016)

It never declined.

Come at me .


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> The biggest problem was Kishimoto deciding to undermine Naruto's growth by having him go berserk and use the Kyuubi's power. Another problem is that Naruto didn't achieve anything for the first two arcs of Part 2, while Sasuke was so ridiculously far ahead of Naruto that the entire time-skip seems a waste.
> 
> Naruto needed to be capable to defend himself against Akatsuki and similar villains. That would allow Naruto to defeat an Akatsuki member with the help of elite teammates. Which is exactly what Sakura did when she helped Chiyo defeat Sasori. Which his exactly what Naruto never did because Kishimoto couldn't be bothered.


Which too me is a problem that stemmed from the villains being too powerful. I mean while I liked Sakura + Chiyo vs Sasori, they still needed so many advantages to win that it came off a bit absurd, and probably even that fight would have benefitted from Kishi spending 1-2 more arcs having Sakura get stronger fighting Zabuza, Yamato, P1-Kabuto level Ninja before she fought Sasori alongside Chiyo. 



HoroHoro said:


> More realistic than Rock Lee and Might Guy? I don't think so.


I don't find Gai's realistic at all. He went to Kaguya tier in the usage of a single Technique (Gates).


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## Lucy75 (Jan 25, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Honestly? Naruto was never anything spectacular in terms of plot and characters. Even back in Part 1 although, not to the same extent as Part 2. Naruto has always been a generic mainstream shonen manga. It's decent in Part 1, but nothing groundbreaking, although it slowly went downhill after the Chunin Exams arc. There's nothing in Naruto that isn't better executed in other manga series. Part 1 was only good because his first editor, Kosuke Yahagi, basically dictated the plot and thematics.
> 
> As to why Naruto fails plot-wisely, it's a pretty long-winded post, but I'll try my best to formulate myself:
> 
> ...


Naruto clearly was something special considering the fame and popularity it got from it's very beginning. It's not a coincidence that so many other manga haven't achieved the same success naruto has even though people pretend like it's the worst out there. 

Kishi was able to appeal to a large and diverse audience even up to it's very end considering the manga was still one of the top 10 best selling even on it's last volume. 

And don't give me the BS that all these people have shit taste. Many of the same people that enjoy naruto also enjoy stuff like one piece, HxH, FMA, etc. which I have the gut feeling someone like you won't call shit tier mangas.


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

Lucy75 said:


> Naruto clearly was something special considering the fame and popularity it got from it's very beginning. It's not a coincidence that so many other manga haven't achieved the same success naruto has even though people pretend like it's the worst out there.
> 
> Kishi was able to appeal to a large and diverse audience even up to it's very end considering the manga was still one of the top 10 best selling even on it's last volume.
> 
> And don't give me the BS that all these people have shit taste. Many of the same people that enjoy naruto also enjoy stuff like one piece, HxH, FMA, etc. which I have the gut feeling someone like you won't call shit tier mangas.



Naruto was successful, because it kind of redefined the Shonen Genre, by incorporating a lovable looser as the main character, versus other Shonens at the time who all had the naturally gifted supermen as their main protagonist. So Naruto offered something unique, and offered it within the context of an extremely imaginative world w/ a colorful cast of characters. The problem is Naruto later completely subverted that main quality that made itself unique, turning Naruto into a superman type character as well as the plot becoming much more convoluted as time went on. It's at this point that the Naruto Manga plot wise went to garbage, but it still had an interesting world and creative characters, which is what kept a good portion of it's fans still reading and discussing the manga, despite many acknowledging the actual story was shit.

And to me a story's plot can be total shit, but their can still be admirable qualities that can keep me watching. There are plenty of action movies who have a piss poor plot, but dam they have cool fights scenes that I watch over and over again. For example Phantom Menace imo had a very bad plot, but dam is Neison fighting Maul a stylish fight that I can watch multiple times.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Naruto was successful, because it kind of redefined the Shonen Genre, by incorporating a lovable looser as the main character, versus other Shonens at the time who all had the naturally gifted supermen as their main protagonist. So Naruto offered something unique, and offered it within the context of an extremely imaginative world w/ a colorful cast of characters. The problem is Naruto later completely subverted that main quality that made itself unique, turning Naruto into a superman type character as well as the plot becoming much more convoluted as time went on. It's at this point that the Naruto Manga plot wise went to garbage, but it still had an interesting world and creative characters, which is what kept a good portion of it's fans still reading and discussing the manga, despite many acknowledging the actual story was shit.



First of all, shonen is not a genre, it's a demographic. Second of all, Naruto didn't redefine jack. If you want to talk about series that refined the shonen demographic, then series like Dragon Ball, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Yu Yu Hakusho already did that. Naruto is just a really generic shonen series, everything in Naruto had been done before, and better executed as a matter of fact. Just because it's the first show of its kind you saw on TV or read in the library when you were a kid doesn't it mean it's special or good. 

Backstories about bullying, being an outcast, loss of loved ones are all common tropes in shonen manga and superhero comics. Naruto Uzumaki is a cliched sunshine goofball protagonist, he's just a rehash of the many great shonen heroes who stood before him, but the thing that sets him apart from the other shonen heroes before him is that he's not funny, but whiny, needy, vain, cares way too much about what others think of him. In the meantime, we got characters like Goku and Luffy who are actually funny, adventurous, carefree, emotionally independent, and likable idiot heroes. 

Even as a battle manga, it's also generic. Clones and elemental manipulation are the oldest tricks in battle shonen, but I've seen Naruto fans try to make chakra affinity sound like it's something revolutionary, are you familiar with Nen? If you've watched or read Hunter x Hunter before, you would know where that chakra affinity test came from.


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## Milliardo (Jan 25, 2016)

Lucy75 said:


> Naruto clearly was something special considering the fame and popularity it got from it's very beginning. It's not a coincidence that so many other manga haven't achieved the same success naruto has even though people pretend like it's the worst out there.
> 
> Kishi was able to appeal to a large and diverse audience even up to it's very end considering the manga was still one of the top 10 best selling even on it's last volume.
> 
> And don't give me the BS that all these people have shit taste. Many of the same people that enjoy naruto also enjoy stuff like one piece, HxH, FMA, etc. which I have the gut feeling someone like you won't call shit tier mangas.



Naruto earned it's fame and popularity in the beginning but it obviously began to decline as the series went on. Besides fame and popularity don't necessarily define quality. 

Your an extreme fan who would never admit the flaws of the story so I don't understand why you even went into this thread.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 25, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> Naruto earned it's fame and popularity in the beginning but it obviously began to decline as the series went on. Besides fame and popularity don't necessarily define quality.
> 
> Your an extreme fan who would never admit the flaws of the story so I don't understand why you even went into this thread.



He thought Naruto was something super special because it's famous and has a big fandom. I don't get his point. Jump comics always has massive hits every once in a while every decade, it’s not a big deal anyway.


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> First of all, shonen is not a genre, it's a demographic. Second of all, Naruto didn't redefine jack. If you want to talk about series that refined the shonen demographic, then series like Dragon Ball, Fist of the North Star, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Yu Yu Hakusho already did that. Naruto is just a really generic shonen series, everything in Naruto had been done before, and better executed as a matter of fact. Just because it's the first show of its kind you saw on TV or read in the library when you were a kid doesn't it mean it's special or good.
> 
> Backstories about bullying, being an outcast, loss of loved ones are all common tropes in shonen manga and superhero comics. Naruto Uzumaki is a cliched sunshine goofball protagonist, he's just a rehash of the many great shonen heroes who stood before him, but the thing that sets him apart from the other shonen heroes before him is that he's not funny, but whiny, needy, vain, cares way too much about what others think of him. In the meantime, we got characters like Goku and Luffy who are actually funny, adventurous, carefree, emotionally independent, and likable idiot heroes.
> 
> Even as a battle manga, it's also generic. Clones and elemental manipulation are the oldest tricks in battle shonen, but I've seen Naruto fans try to make chakra affinity sound like it's something revolutionary, are you familiar with Nen? If you've watched or read Hunter x Hunter before, you would know where that chakra affinity test came from.


Name one big Shonen before Naruto whose main protagonist was an underdog looser, rather than innately gifted or at least average? If there was one, than, I retract my statement, but if you quote off to me obscure Shonen titles or non Shonen titles, than I stand by the fact that Naruto was the first Manga to bring that type of protagonist into the main stream for the Shonen Genre, and that as well as it's imaginative setting, and honestly solid plot (in Part I, and passable in early Part II) is what made Naruto as popular as it now is.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Name one big Shonen before Naruto whose main protagonist was an underdog looser, rather than innately gifted or at least average? If there was one, than, I retract my statement, but if you quote off to me obscure Shonen titles or non Shonen titles, than I stand by the fact that Naruto was the first Manga to bring that type of protagonist into the main stream for the Shonen Genre, and that as well as it's imaginative setting, and honestly solid plot (in Part I, and passable in early Part II) is what made Naruto as popular as it now is.



I already did, Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, and as an addition, Slam Dunk. All four of them being some of Shonen Jump's utmost important franchises.

Naruto's underdog story is boring and contrived. In the meantime, Goku's, "I'm awesome, and yet I still lose a lot" plots are more interesting and better executed because it shows you that it takes more than just skills and strength to come out on top. Just like in real life, sometimes bullshit would get in the way. There are plenty of fights Goku should have won, but he lost by a hair, plenty of fights he should have lost but he won because of crazy, but enjoyable plot twists. He lost two times in a row in the Tenkaichi Budokai tournament, one time against Jackie Chun and the other time against Tenshinhan. 

Goku's still one of the best shonen heroes out there because of this aspect. Even to this day, Goku's winning and losing streak isn't an absolute, regardless of whether he's a god. He still lost to Beerus in Battle of Gods. He got knocked out cold by Sorbet in Resurrection of F due to arrogance.


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## Aduro (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Name one big Shonen before Naruto whose main protagonist was an underdog looser, rather than innately gifted or at least average? If there was one, than, I retract my statement, but if you quote off to me obscure Shonen titles or non Shonen titles, than I stand by the fact that Naruto was the first Manga to bring that type of protagonist into the main stream for the Shonen Genre, and that as well as it's imaginative setting, and honestly solid plot (in Part I, and passable in early Part II) is what made Naruto as popular as it now is.



Disregarding almost every harem/action anime protagonist ever? Taht's the only place you'll find a protagonist with no potential besides idiot bravery and being relatively decent human being. 

Off the top of my head though if you want a very popular underdog, how about Red from Pokemon Adventures, he's a pretty typical protagonist from a popular manga that began in '97 and he's an underdog compared to Green by a long way. Or there's Excel from Excel Saga the year before. Or there's Yusuke who's constantly training hard and using his wits or having sheer dumb luck to keep up with much stronger opponents from Rando to Toguro to Sensui to Yomi, although his demon blood is a little like the Kyuubi.

But anyway I think having something special ie like the Kyuubi doesn't stop a protagonist being an underdog, because Naruto had to train hard and overcome his own weaknesses to earn his power when other would fail. We saw him train himself half to death to get clones, rasengan, sage mode and to control Kyuubi chakra. And he arguably passed a test of character to get his last minute powerup against Kaguya by persuading the bijuu and the sage. I really don't understand why Naruto has this reputation for getting power unfairly even though we see him train far more often than protagonists like Luffy who basically did none between the first chapter and the timeskip and Natsu who does the same or gets temporary power boosts.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 25, 2016)

Aduro said:


> But anyway I think having something special ie like the Kyuubi doesn't stop a protagonist being an underdog, because Naruto had to train hard and overcome his own weaknesses to earn his power when other would fail. We saw him train himself half to death to get clones, rasengan, sage mode and to control Kyuubi chakra. And he arguably passed a test of character to get his last minute powerup against Kaguya by persuading the bijuu and the sage. I really don't understand why Naruto has this reputation for getting power unfairly even though we see him train far more often than protagonists like Luffy who basically did none between the first chapter and the timeskip and Natsu who does the same or gets temporary power boosts.



Naruto only got where he's at, at the expense of the Nine-Tails. In the meantime, characters like Luffy, although off-panel, trained to get to the level he's at. The story was supposed to be about an outsider who had nothing in this world, yet managed to get stronger thanks to his own will and efforts, instead he relies on some borrowed power from a monster inside his belly. Seriously, I  was really annoyed how Naruto got a power-up just by befriending with Kurama. That was some Pokemon shit. 

Anyway, I still think the premise of his "underdog hard worker" characterization was always unsustainable. Because shonen battle manga protagonists are typically between age 12 or 15 over the course of the story, and they'll be the strongest person in their universe when the series ends. They'll outclass everyone, including people who have decades more training than them, in just a few years, it's their main character privilege. Such rapid progression in power level is not possible without having any special innate potential. So eventually, his "mediocre" facet ended up looking fake. 

Naruto typically trained a couple of weeks to a couple of few months for a major power-up. Every power-up allowed him to jump leagues above and leave his peers and mentors, and even Kage in the dust. This is not a believable progression for your "average" "untalented" Joe who works hard. Besides that point, Naruto isn't even someone who's dedicated to training like Goku and Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta bust their asses even when there's no imminent threats, Naruto didn't do jack shit in the timeskip, and he only got serious about training when there's an exam or a looming attack on Konoha.


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## Itachi san88 (Jan 25, 2016)

> Pain arc. Many consider it went downhill after Pain arc, but I personally think many of the problematic concepts and themes that had negative impact on the whole story were introduced during the Pain arc. First and foremost, the Child of Prophecy concept. It's generally just not a good message to deliver children regardless how much Kishimoto tries to convince us. Heroism can occur from any place and to any one, it's not just decided by preemptive birth. On top of that, it contradicts the thematics of Part 1 regarding hard work beating natural talent, defying fate and so forth. Plus, it destroyed one of the fundamentals of Naruto's character.
> 
> My second problem is the Cycle of Hatred concept and the quest for peace which Pain and Naruto preaches. At the time, people argued it added depth to Naruto's character, that it's a more meaningful goal than just seeking recognition. In hindsight though, Kishimoto didn't have the writing chops to handle real life and complex crisis like peace and conflicts, it ended up a massive dump on Naruto's character. He never had an answer, he lacked philosophical depth compared to the antagonists, he countered everything with "You're just like me, you're lonely, bruh."
> 
> ...


This


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## Punished Kiba (Jan 25, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Naruto only got where he's at, at the expense of the Nine-Tails. In the meantime, characters like Luffy, although off-panel, trained to get to the level he's at. The story was supposed to be about an outsider who had nothing in this world, yet managed to get stronger thanks to his own will and efforts, instead he relies on some borrowed power from a monster inside his belly. Seriously, I  was really annoyed how Naruto got a power-up just by befriending with Kurama. That was some Pokemon shit.
> 
> Anyway, I still think the premise of his "underdog hard worker" characterization was always unsustainable. Because shonen battle manga protagonists are typically between age 12 or 15 over the course of the story, and they'll be the strongest person in their universe when the series ends. They'll outclass everyone, including people who have decades more training than them, in just a few years, it's their main character privilege. Such rapid progression in power level is not possible without having any special innate potential. So eventually, his "mediocre" facet ended up looking fake.
> 
> Naruto typically trained a couple of weeks to a couple of few months for a major power-up. Every power-up allowed him to jump leagues above and leave his peers and mentors, and even Kage in the dust. This is not a believable progression for your "average" "untalented" Joe who works hard. Besides that point, Naruto isn't even someone who's dedicated to training like Goku and Vegeta. Goku and Vegeta bust their asses even when there's no imminent threats, Naruto didn't do jack shit in the timeskip, and he only got serious about training when there's an exam or a looming attack on Konoha.



Another thing I hated when it came to Naruto's power-ups is how there would be virtually no consequences for over-usage. Like, each of Luffy's new gear changes would have a quite long lasting concequences and Goku couldn't spam SSJ3 even though he trained so long with it.

But, with Nardo, He's able to continuously get granted new transformations, even while spreading Kurama's chakra among the 1000's of shinobi and still spam moves and claim all the focus. Like, Naruto only has to rest for a liitle bit for one chapter and then the spamming continues.


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## Milliardo (Jan 25, 2016)

Aduro said:


> But anyway I think having something special ie like the Kyuubi doesn't stop a protagonist being an underdog, because Naruto had to train hard and overcome his own weaknesses to earn his power when other would fail. We saw him train himself half to death to get clones, rasengan, sage mode and to control Kyuubi chakra. And he arguably passed a test of character to get his last minute powerup against Kaguya by persuading the bijuu and the sage. I really don't understand why Naruto has this reputation for getting power unfairly even though we see him train far more often than protagonists like Luffy who basically did none between the first chapter and the timeskip and Natsu who does the same or gets temporary power boosts.


what do you define as hardwork?

Naruto never earned kyuubi first and foremost. It was given to him by his dad that's a fact. Having the kyuubi does take away from his underdog status because at that point after he has greater potential than anyone else. Practically unlimited chakra and power. Not only that but he was an Uzumaki which have perfect bodies to host the chakra beast on top of having big chakra and strong lifeforms themselves. Therefore he has greater potential to house the kyuubi than most. 

He learns things really fast. He usually masters something in like a week. The things he does aren't really physically challenging like sage mode for example, he just swam in oil and sat down to get sage mode.. when he learned clones he only practiced for half a day and mastered one of the most broken jutsu ever especially combined with his Uzumaki bloodline and kyuubi Jin power. All he did was read from the scroll he had stolen and make hand signs forming clones for a little period. I don't consider that hard working. Just because you had to do something to get something doesn't mean you busted your ass to get it. 

Another thing is no one can train harder than naruto because of kyuubi. He can train longer because of his vast amounts of chakra. Hell, he doesn't have to do anything because of the clone mind sharing bullshit training...

Naruto always had access to the kyuubi power like when we first seen it awaken against haku. Did he train for that? No, he did not yet kyuubi kicked in helped him against haku who he otherwise would have never defeated. All naruto really had to do was befriend the kyuubi and he would get access to all its power. See the thing is kyuubi was always there waiting to help him and with it naruto could always challenge ninja that far out ranked him. 

Its for those reasons that I never seen naruto as underdog.


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## Keishin (Jan 25, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Honestly? Naruto was never anything spectacular in terms of plot and characters. Even back in Part 1 although, not to the same extent as Part 2. Naruto has always been a generic mainstream shonen manga. It's decent in Part 1, but nothing groundbreaking, although it slowly went downhill after the Chunin Exams arc. There's nothing in Naruto that isn't better executed in other manga series. Part 1 was only good because his first editor, Kosuke Yahagi, basically dictated the plot and thematics.
> 
> As to why Naruto fails plot-wisely, it's a pretty long-winded post, but I'll try my best to formulate myself:
> 
> ...


There is something Naruto did better than other manga though... The massive ragefestivals in the fandom after chapters like Pain revival, Izanami, Kakashi getting PS, Kaguya and the godly Obito reveal


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## Zef (Jan 25, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> what do you define as hardwork?
> 
> Naruto never earned kyuubi first and foremost. It was given to him by his dad that's a fact. Having the kyuubi does take away from his underdog status because at that point after he has greater potential than anyone else. Practically unlimited chakra and power. Not only that but he was an Uzumaki which have perfect bodies to host the chakra beast on top of having big chakra and strong lifeforms themselves. Therefore he has greater potential to house the kyuubi than most.
> 
> ...


This....all of this.

Rock Lee, Might Gai. These are underdogs.

Naruto may have been able to pass for the hard worker gimmick if it hadn't been revealed that Uzumaki were of prestigious origin. That coupled with the fact that he has a sentient chakra being inside him just makes it cringe inducing when he's presented as someone who struggles with their abilities.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 25, 2016)

I think that Kishi chose to play the underdog card with Lee and (especially) Guy.

Which is why Guy got such a spectacular showing by the end despite not coming from a genetically superior clan, having no prophecies about him nor having bijuus or super eyes...

Maybe Kishi though that Naruto being too normal would make him boring when compared to his other peers. Besides most of the Rookies 12 are kids of leaders of prestigious clans which makes them all ninja princes I guess. 

Granted for a guy who emphasized the underdog theme and was stated to be an average kid by Jiraiya, Naruto ended up being around as special as Sasuke...who was meant to be the genius super hard to match due to his genetic gifts.

Still...Naruto had to work hard to learn the rasengan and it took plenty of effort to gain Kurama's respect and friendship. Not just during the war by but enduring through his whole life as his bijuu was watching his struggles the whole time.


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## Indra (Jan 25, 2016)

Naruto was the underdog, in my opinion, when it came to his lack of shinobi skill, and intelligence.

These are things he learned as time progressed. He was never moderately smart when it came to overall intelligence, but he isn't completely stupid. And he lacked in skill in some areas, such as breaking out of a Genjutsu, he didn't even know how until Jiraiya taught him post-Part 1.

While Rock Lee in comparison was more of the hard worker who couldn't do much unless he continuously trained his body to its limitations. Either way, depending on your views on this whole 'hard worker' or not topic. If you do compare Naruto to his son, the Genius. He does lay down that Naruto indeed had to work harder for his abilities compared to someone who doesn't.

Shadow Clones:
> Naruto had to train to learn the technique, no specific time, but we do know that he trained hard.
> Boruto said that he learned the Kage Bunshin without training.

Rasengan:
> Took Naruto approx. 38~ days to learn and master the Rasengan. I have the post ready just in case anyone needs a breakdown. 
> Boruto learned the Rasengan in four days, while it wasn't the same size as his father's, the knock off was that he completed the technique (Manga states that applying chakra nature to the Rasengan makes the incomplete jutsu, complete). He later improved the size post-development of his character

Elemental Nature:
> Took Naruto a few days to start utilizing Fuuton in breaking the leaf, but, he had to train with shadow clones which improved his experience all around. Meaning that for each clone on the field, he was gaining their experience and adding it onto his already rising goal. Note that Naruto had many clones on the field, and he finally learned how to utilize the Nature (Not going to look back, I would say it took him a week, maybe?)
> Boruto learned how to utilize three elemental natures before his Chunin Exams, and mind you he's 12 years old. 

Nature Chakra Rasengan:
> Probably one of Naruto's hardest tasks. He later gave up at some point because of how hard it was for him to concentrate on the Rasengan, and to apply Nature chakra at the same time. Kakashi argued that he should split the efforts between his shadow clones instead of putting all that work onto one person, and Naruto later had to work out the rest for himself. After receiving Rikudou Chakra, he later dropped the clones.
> Boruto unconsciously applied Nature chakra to his Rasengan, and to make matters worse, he didn't need the aid of the shadow clones to do it either.


So yeah, I wouldn't say Naruto isn't untalented, or a loser. But the whole 'Asura' in what connects his character to Sasuke/Indra makes him out to be some type of hard worker who relies on cooperation and the help of people. Which kind of makes sense since almost every power he received, it was from someone else, or he needed to use of clones to benefit as he couldn't do it alone. Heck, from the beginning Minato had rigged the seal so that Naruto's chakra could mix in with Kurama's to make it more potent I would assume? So technically he was receiving help since birth by his father.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 25, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, One Piece became a great story. But the first dozen arcs were a chore to get through. Don't make it seem better than it actually was.

And while Gon searched for his father, he was still having his own adventures. Same thing applies to the Straw Hats in relation to the One Piece. That's the difference with Naruto: he obsessed over bringing Sasuke back to Konoha only for that to never happen. There's a subtle but important difference between a character's motivation and a character's goal---one which Kishimoto ignored. Another human being can be a motivation but it can never be a goal.

***

The manga had enough grand struggles to give characters purpose. At the end of Part 1, there were 2 major threats: Orochimaru and Akatsuki. Unfortunately, Kishimoto wasted both of them.

The build-up was already inconsistent. Naruto was symbolic for a better world while Sasuke was symbolic for the problems of the world. Kishimoto even made it explicit in the story about the Rikudo's sons. Unfortunately, that also tied ideology (or a general pattern) to genetic lineages (or specific characters) which was stupid. But instead of reducing the connection between ideology and genetics, Kishimoto doubled down on it. This forced Kishimoto to blame specific characters (like Danzo) for the problems in the world which effectively destroyed the message the manga was trying to tell. Kaguya is a logical result of the mess Kishimoto created.

It's not the premise of the story that's shallow and limiting, but Kishimoto's execution of it. Yes, a stupid 12 year old boy has a shallow concept of what it means to be Hokage. Then the obvious thing to happen would be for Naruto to learn what it actually means. But Kishimoto never did that.

And that's the story of Part 2: Kishimoto had built up quite a lot of things, but then abandoned it for the next idea that popped into his head. I seriously suspect the guy of having attention deficit.


----------



## HunterxH (Jan 25, 2016)

I'll just post something that I wrote before.



> I registered an account just to say that I agree with the OP 100% and I would take what he said one step further.
> 
> Naruto is perhaps one of the worst shounen protagonists ever made.
> 
> ...


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## Bloo (Jan 25, 2016)

The War Arc. The Kage Summit Arc was pretty bad, but it didn't seem like it was in a state of disrepair.


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> I already did, Dragon Ball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Hunter x Hunter, and as an addition, Slam Dunk. All four of them being some of Shonen Jump's utmost important franchises.
> 
> Naruto's underdog story is boring and contrived. In the meantime, Goku's, "I'm awesome, and yet I still lose a lot" plots are more interesting and better executed because it shows you that it takes more than just skills and strength to come out on top. Just like in real life, sometimes bullshit would get in the way. There are plenty of fights Goku should have won, but he lost by a hair, plenty of fights he should have lost but he won because of crazy, but enjoyable plot twists. He lost two times in a row in the Tenkaichi Budokai tournament, one time against Jackie Chun and the other time against Tenshinhan.
> 
> Goku's still one of the best shonen heroes out there because of this aspect. Even to this day, Goku's winning and losing streak isn't an absolute, regardless of whether he's a god. He still lost to Beerus in Battle of Gods. He got knocked out cold by Sorbet in Resurrection of F due to arrogance.



All of which have protagonists who are innately highly skilled, and not underdogs at all.


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## Punished Kiba (Jan 25, 2016)

Turrin said:


> All of which have protagonists who are innately highly skilled, and not underdogs at all.



Naruto is also innately high-skilled...(prophecy child, son of the 4th, demi-god reincarnation)....he was never an underdog


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## Tapion (Jan 25, 2016)

The moment pein got TnJ


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## Turrin (Jan 25, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> Naruto is also innately high-skilled...(prophecy child, son of the 4th, demi-god reincarnation)....he was never an underdog


He wasn't at the start of the manga. I agree that later that theme was subverted tho, which was my point about the declining nature of the series.


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## Drake (Jan 25, 2016)

The main thing I didn't like is that everything shifted towards overpowered abilities like the mangekyou sharingan and the nine-tailed fox instead of relying on traditional ninja-like skills such as taijutsu, ninjutsu, and genjutsu. Everything just became about these people who had innately powerful abilities that practically made them gods. It would have been nice to see good fight which primarily featured just regular taijutsu or ninja tools.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> All of which have protagonists who are innately highly skilled, and not underdogs at all.



And that's where you're wrong, because I already pointed out reasons why Goku is an underdog of his series. During his childhood, Goku was really, _really_ weak by Saiyan standards, he actually had to train nonstop to get where he did. Goku, over the course of Dragon Ball, lost to everyone whose names weren't Tao Pai Pai, Piccolo, Freeza or Boo. The same with Hunter x Hunter. Gon and Killua are supposed to be special snowflakes but they constantly lose despite their potential, and they have yet to do anything heroic and are inferior to most Hunters they've met. And lolnope to Slam Dunk, Sakuragi Hanamichi sure as hell was one of the most believable underdog characters I've seen in a shonen manga. Despite being noted to have the potential of being one of Japan's greatest Basketball players, Sakuragi took hundreds of chapters to fully grasp the game, and even by the end of the series, he's still inferior to naturally talented athletes like Rukawa, Sendoh and Eiji. Shohoku still lost Sannoh, Sakuragi broke his spine, leaving him unable to play Basketball anymore.

Naruto was supposed to be the underdog but shortly became the world's greatest snowflake in the history of snow and was born with one of the most overpowered Tailed Beasts inside his belly which gave him an unlimited amount of power, his Uzumaki heritage doesn't really support his underdog status either as Uzumakis are naturally born with massive chakra reserves. If anything, an actual underdog character of the Naruto Universe was Rock Lee, since he was basically handicapped by the universe's standards. He's actually disadvantaged, In the meantime,  Naruto was not disadvantaged in any important way. He's actually privileged as fuck, just like Sasuke. He had access to better training than most characters, he had five mentors of legendary status (Kakashi, Jiraiya, Yamato, Fukasaku, Killer B). He's a more believable underdog character than Ninja Jesus, he would make a better protagonist, and Kishimoto never bothered to develop his character at all.



> He wasn't at the start of the manga. I agree that later that theme was subverted tho, which was my point about the declining nature of the series.



-Learns Shadow Clone in one day
-Learns Summoning and manages to summon Gamabunta in just two days
-Learns the Rasengan in one month

Naruto was always talented, even back in Part 1 he stood the most out amongst the Konoha 11 characters, the only thing that set him apart from prodigies like Sasuke and Neji was that he was just a lazy bum.


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## Baroxio (Jan 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> People bitch about Naruto's improvements over the time-skip, but to me Naruto's growth there was thee most realistic period of growth for any of the characters in the manga. He got better at the basics where he was so sorely lacking and managed to improve an already very powerful Jutsu even further (Oddoma Rasengan). Sakura's growth was also fine, she was not the second best Medical Ninja, not by a mile, she was good at brewing antidotes, but in every other regard i'd still take Shizune and Kabuto over her.
> 
> The problem was that kishi made the villains too stronger, rushing Naruto and Sakura into fighting Akatsuki Members and making Sasuke's growth ridiculously far ahead of Naruto's. Than he had to super speed up Naruto's growth in the Wind-Arc and Pain-Arc, to get him back up to Sasuke's level and being able to compete against the villains. And than Kishi completely forgot about Sakura's growth post Suna Arc.
> 
> Kishimoto should have slowed down and had a couple arcs post TS where Naruto and Company were fighting Zabuza level Ninja


What "basics" did Naruto improve in, exactly? Everything he did when he came in after 3 years was something he's already done earlier on in the manga. Transforming into weapons? Zabuza fight. Using clones to avoid attacks while airborne? Gaara fight. 

The only new things Naruto showed was a bigger Rasengan, which in many people's mind shouldn't have been needed since Rasengan is already an OHKO jutsu, and more Kyuubi chakra that he showed arguably less control over when compared to the Neji fight. That's it. That's literally all he accomplished over 3 years, a slight and unneeded improvement to a technique he learned in a month, and more Kyuubi with less control.

Feel free to correct me if I perhaps missed something.

Sakura's growth over the time skip was perfect, and Sasuke's wasn't half bad if you consider that he was supposed to be trying the close the gap between himself and his brother, who even Orochimaru admitted inferiority to. If Sasuke wasn't on the level of a Sannin by that time, then trying to take on Itachi would have been impossible. In comparison to Sakura, who no doubt spent a vast amount of time collecting medical knowledge as well as upping her combat skill from "absolute garbage" to "somewhat passable," Sasuke's growth spent entirely on his already above-the-curve combat potential wasn't that unrealistic for a "genius" of his caliber.

It just stood out a lot more next to Naruto's near nonexistent growth.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jan 26, 2016)

Zef said:


> This....all of this.
> 
> Rock Lee, Might Gai. These are underdogs.
> 
> Naruto may have been able to pass for the hard worker gimmick if it hadn't been revealed that Uzumaki were of prestigious origin. That coupled with the fact that he has a sentient chakra being inside him just makes it cringe inducing when he's presented as someone who struggles with their abilities.



I know lol. Naruto was passed off as a hard worker when in reality he had more Keishousha abilities than anyone else in the series - he was a Jinchuriki like Killer B, a transmigrant like Sasuke and from a prestigious clan like Hashirama. The real hard workers are those who werent born with anything ie Jiraiya and Orochimaru.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucy75 said:


> Naruto clearly was something special considering the fame and popularity it got from it's very beginning. It's not a coincidence that so many other manga haven't achieved the same success naruto has even though people pretend like it's the worst out there.
> 
> Kishi was able to appeal to a large and diverse audience even up to it's very end considering the manga was still one of the top 10 best selling even on it's last volume.
> 
> And don't give me the BS that all these people have shit taste. Many of the same people that enjoy naruto also enjoy stuff like one piece, HxH, FMA, etc. which I have the gut feeling someone like you won't call shit tier mangas.




He's a gifted artist.

And he's not an untalented writer, but his weak points as a writer have overshadowed his strong points.




Aduro said:


> Disregarding almost every harem/action anime protagonist ever? Taht's the only place you'll find a protagonist with no potential besides idiot bravery and being relatively decent human being.
> 
> Off the top of my head though if you want a very popular underdog, how about Red from Pokemon Adventures, he's a pretty typical protagonist from a popular manga that began in '97 and he's an underdog compared to Green by a long way. Or there's Excel from Excel Saga the year before. Or there's Yusuke who's constantly training hard and using his wits or having sheer dumb luck to keep up with much stronger opponents from Rando to Toguro to Sensui to Yomi, although his demon blood is a little like the Kyuubi.
> 
> But anyway I think having something special ie like the Kyuubi doesn't stop a protagonist being an underdog, because Naruto had to train hard and overcome his own weaknesses to earn his power when other would fail. We saw him train himself half to death to get clones, rasengan, sage mode and to control Kyuubi chakra. And he arguably passed a test of character to get his last minute powerup against Kaguya by persuading the bijuu and the sage. I really don't understand why Naruto has this reputation for getting power unfairly even though we see him train far more often than protagonists like Luffy who basically did none between the first chapter and the timeskip and Natsu who does the same or gets temporary power boosts.




Agreed.

Many criticisms are due to poor reading skills. Even someone like Rock Lee is extremely talented. He's simply not talented in the conventional ninja way, but he was able to open 5 Gates within a year of training so he's unconventionally gifted. Naruto and Jiraiya are also untalented compared to the conventionally talented like Orochimaru and Neji/Sasuke. But both are talented in unconventional areas like power and stamina.

Other criticisms are because the manga doesn't fit their (false) image of what a real ninja is.




Milliardo said:


> what do you define as hardwork?
> 
> Naruto never earned kyuubi first and foremost. It was given to him by his dad that's a fact. Having the kyuubi does take away from his underdog status because at that point after he has greater potential than anyone else. Practically unlimited chakra and power. Not only that but he was an Uzumaki which have perfect bodies to host the chakra beast on top of having big chakra and strong lifeforms themselves. Therefore he has greater potential to house the kyuubi than most.
> 
> ...




It's not as if fiction is a realistic portrayal of hard work. Quite the contrary, it's about the sentiment of hard work. None of the principles of training apply: specificity, overload, adaptation, recovery, frequency, duration, intensity and especially *diminishing returns.*

Besides, Naruto is not the underdog because he has to work hard. He's the underdog because (A) he's expected to lose; and (B) he's got a poor reputation and social status.

The only things Naruto learns fast are those that suit him. Kage Bunshin suits Naruto more than a regular Bunshin. Rasengan suits Naruto because it doesn't require an elemental transformation. Sage Mode suits Naruto due to his stamina and chakra reserves. It's not any different than Rock Lee being extremely talented in learning the Eight Gates.




lndra said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good post.

You compare Naruto with his son, but the manga continuously compares Naruto with talented ninja. Everything is *relative* and *not absolute.* But that's apparently too difficult to comprehend for some people.




KingForever7 said:


> Naruto is also innately high-skilled...(prophecy child, son of the 4th, demi-god reincarnation)....he was never an underdog




Prophecy child does not equal innately skilled. It just means you're relevant.

Son of 4th: this is irrelevant because he didn't inherit his father's talent.

Uzumaki heritage: this is relevant because it made him the Kyuubi jinchuriki, but it's both a blessing and a curse.

Asura reincarnation: his past level has no bearing on his current life.




Turrin said:


> He wasn't at the start of the manga. I agree that later that theme was subverted tho, which was my point about the declining nature of the series.




I'm not saying they were good for the story---because most of that stuff could be removed from the manga without causing many problems---but they're not subversions. Consider the following: just because you come from a family that historically used to be wealthy, doesn't change the fact the current generation is broke.


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## Mateush (Jan 26, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> Naruto is also innately high-skilled...(prophecy child, son of the 4th, demi-god reincarnation)....he was never an underdog



I agree


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## Milliardo (Jan 26, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> It's not as if fiction is a realistic portrayal of hard work. Quite the contrary, it's about the sentiment of hard work. None of the principles of training apply: specificity, overload, adaptation, recovery, frequency, duration, intensity and especially *diminishing returns.*


well true hard work is hard to show in training sessions within manga. What they should do is show a few panels of them doing some sort of extreme conditioning then have a line say something like "3 months later" so that way we don't have to see boring training panels for multiple chapters. 




NarutoShion4ever said:


> Besides, Naruto is not the underdog because he has to work hard. He's the underdog because (A) he's expected to lose; and (B) he's got a poor reputation and social status.


which seems strange considering later on in the manga jinns were considered the village weapons. Why would someone underestimate somebody who can bust out demon chakra power when put in duress?




NarutoShion4ever said:


> The only things Naruto learns fast are those that suit him. Kage Bunshin suits Naruto more than a regular Bunshin. Rasengan suits Naruto because it doesn't require an elemental transformation. Sage Mode suits Naruto due to his stamina and chakra reserves. It's not any different than Rock Lee being extremely talented in learning the Eight Gates.


so geniuses learn things that don't suit them then? Thats an interesting thought. 

Here i thought with enough hard work and strong will you could accomplish anything. 

Still i don't fully disagree with you shion I really don't.


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## Raniero (Jan 26, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Honestly? Naruto was never anything spectacular in terms of plot and characters. Even back in Part 1 although, not to the same extent as Part 2. Naruto has always been a generic mainstream shonen manga. It's decent in Part 1, but nothing groundbreaking, although it slowly went downhill after the Chunin Exams arc. There's nothing in Naruto that isn't better executed in other manga series. Part 1 was only good because his first editor, Kosuke Yahagi, basically dictated the plot and thematics.
> 
> As to why Naruto fails plot-wisely, it's a pretty long-winded post, but I'll try my best to formulate myself:
> 
> ...


Not to mention his reason for becoming Hokage was selfish and shallow. 

He wanted to become one of the most powerful and important military and political figures in the world with a multitude of responsibilities when he himself didn't have a remote understanding about politics or governing a village because....he wanted everybody in the village to like him?


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 26, 2016)

Lucy75 said:


> Naruto clearly was something special considering the fame and popularity it got from it's very beginning. It's not a coincidence that so many other manga haven't achieved the same success naruto has even though people pretend like it's the worst out there.
> 
> Kishi was able to appeal to a large and diverse audience even up to it's very end considering the manga was still one of the top 10 best selling even on it's last volume.
> 
> And don't give me the BS that all these people have shit taste. Many of the same people that enjoy naruto also enjoy stuff like one piece, HxH, FMA, etc. which I have the gut feeling someone like you won't call shit tier mangas.



You know what other franchise earned fame and popularity from the very beginning? Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey. You know what else do they have in common? Notoriety. Same thing for Naruto. Naruto's popularity stems from the fact that it's piss-easy to project one's own juvenile negative emotions onto the characters. Very often, when I try to talk to other Naruto fans about how the writing is amateur and lazy, they'd start talking about how they relate to the characters. Of course not all Naruto fans are attracted to the relatable aspect, but the majority of them are. Like I said earlier, Naruto is nothing super special just because it's famous and has a big fandom. Just because it was the first of its kind you saw on television or read in Starbucks when you were a kid doesn't it make it special. Jump comics always has massive hits every once in a while every decade, it’s not a big deal anyway, like, duh, it's Jump. One-Punch Man is a Jump comic, and it's already selling better than the likes of Naruto in America from what I've heard.

Did you even read my post? Where did I ever imply that Naruto fans have shitty taste? I'm well aware that the people who're casual fans of the Naruto franchise, likes the very same stuff that I do. I was making an comparison how Naruto fails as a adventurous fiction in comparison to the likes of Hunter x Hunter and One Piece, and how it tries to come across as something world revolutionary like Legend of the Galactic Heroes which is fundamentally flawed and contradictory. You're just being presumptive.


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> And that's where you're wrong, because I already pointed out reasons why Goku is an underdog of his series. During his childhood, Goku was really, _really_ weak by Saiyan standards, he actually had to train nonstop to get where he did. Goku, over the course of Dragon Ball, lost to everyone whose names weren't Tao Pai Pai, Piccolo, Freeza or Boo. The same with Hunter x Hunter. Gon and Killua are supposed to be special snowflakes but they constantly lose despite their potential, and they have yet to do anything heroic and are inferior to most Hunters they've met. And lolnope to Slam Dunk, Sakuragi Hanamichi sure as hell was one of the most believable underdog characters I've seen in a shonen manga. Despite being noted to have the potential of being one of Japan's greatest Basketball players, Sakuragi took hundreds of chapters to fully grasp the game, and even by the end of the series, he's still inferior to naturally talented athletes like Rukawa, Sendoh and Eiji. Shohoku still lost Sannoh, Sakuragi broke his spine, leaving him unable to play Basketball anymore.
> 
> Naruto was supposed to be the underdog but shortly became the world's greatest snowflake in the history of snow and was born with one of the most overpowered Tailed Beasts inside his belly which gave him an unlimited amount of power, his Uzumaki heritage doesn't really support his underdog status either as Uzumakis are naturally born with massive chakra reserves. If anything, an actual underdog character of the Naruto Universe was Rock Lee, since he was basically handicapped by the universe's standards. He's actually disadvantaged, In the meantime,  Naruto was not disadvantaged in any important way. He's actually privileged as fuck, just like Sasuke. He had access to better training than most characters, he had five mentors of legendary status (Kakashi, Jiraiya, Yamato, Fukasaku, Killer B). He's a more believable underdog character than Ninja Jesus, he would make a better protagonist, and Kishimoto never bothered to develop his character at all.
> 
> ...


There's a difference between being an underdog drop out / looser, and not being born the strongest in the universe. Goku was an innate genius from the jump.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 27, 2016)

Raniero said:


> Not to mention his reason for becoming Hokage was selfish and shallow.
> 
> He wanted to become one of the most powerful and important military and political figures in the world with a multitude of responsibilities when he himself didn't have a remote understanding about politics or governing a village because....he wanted everybody in the village to like him?



Yup. I really hated how the whole Hokage dream was handled. Kishimoto tried to portray Naruto's journey to seek acknowledgement from everyone and aspire to a political title to cement himself as the most acknowledged person in the village was portrayed as some worthy inspirational goal in the series. But reality, it's actually nothing but a self-absorbed and childish pursuit. Imagine how stupid it would sound if Eiichiro Oda tried to make Luffy the president of the World Government, some roles should be filled about by competent and  intelligent adult characters not dumbass teenage heroes like Naruto Uzumaki who have zero political acumen and knows nothing nor is interested in the history about the world around him. Whenever Naruto's emotional needs were denied, he was portrayed as the victim, Kishimoto is encouraging a form of emotional entitlement. This is a really unhealthy message for children, as we've seen people in the fandom thinking Sasuke would be a jackass if he denies thirsty fangirls like Sakura's feelings. Be it romantic affection, acknowledgement or friendship. Other people aren't obligated to take care of your emotional desires. They're given on one's own volition, you can not just go around and guilt trip them, or throw tantrums, and tell them your sob story to make them satisfy your emotional needs. It's even more ridiculous that Kishimoto made Naruto pester Sasuke for validation, Sasuke was incredibly fucked up by trauma himself and was in no mental state to take care of anyone's emotional needs.

On a separate note, I've been seeing some Naruto fans say Naruto is his universe's equivalent to Goku, I don't think he is. I think he's just another generic protagonist, shonen authors are often asked to use the goofball archetype for protagonists because it's a proven popular formula. Luffy is much closer to Goku in terms of characterization, they don't give a damn about people's opinions, they’re emotionally independent, they see people going their separate way and they're all like, "A'ight, good luck!", both Toriyama and Oda subvert "recognition". The Z-Warriors prefer to lead an anonymous life, they don't care about recognition, so Toriyama created a humorous character like Mr. Satan who stole all the credit. Similarly, while it's Luffy who did most of the stuff against the World Government, Usopp would often be the one who saw his bounty growing, it's a running gag. 

Naruto is a cheap populist hero because he's chiefly motivated by recognition, and there're lot of people out there who cares more about recognition than heroism itself. Seriously, I hate that vain aspect of his character. If Naruto existed in One-Punch Man, he'd be that one kid who's super jelly of Genos and Sweet Mask, and he'd plunge into self-pitying if he got hate mails in the process. If he existed in One Piece, he'd be that one idiot whom the Straw Hats would hate, Luffy and Robin especially. Other shonen series'd tell you that you don't do this hero shit for recognition, you do it because that's the right thing to do. Naruto tries to make seeking validation look like it's inspirational, this is anti heroism to the max.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 27, 2016)

*Spoiler*: _@Turrin_ 





Turrin said:


> Which too me is a problem that stemmed from the villains being too powerful. I mean while I liked Sakura + Chiyo vs Sasori, they still needed so many advantages to win that it came off a bit absurd, and probably even that fight would have benefitted from Kishi spending 1-2 more arcs having Sakura get stronger fighting Zabuza, Yamato, P1-Kabuto level Ninja before she fought Sasori alongside Chiyo.




Well, 30% Kisame was a monster and even 30% Itachi was more than capable of holding up Kakashi. So you have a point about them being too powerful.

But *how* a power difference between antagonists and protagonists is bridged, is equally important. Sasuke needed the time-skip to have any hope of defeating Itachi. Sakura needed the time-skip to become relevant. And Naruto needed the time-skip to defend himself from Akatsuki.

But neither Naruto nor Sakura were designed to be able to fight one-on-one. Both have too many weaknesses. But as part of a team, they would cover eachother's weaknesses. And as a team, they would be able to defeat enemies who are individually stronger than them. (Note that even Kakashi has a weakness: his stamina.)

And that's exactly what Kishimoto shows the reader when he lets Team Guy fight 30% Kisame: great teamwork. Unfortunately, Kishimoto decided to have Might Guy, Rock Lee, Neji and Tenten fight their own copies later on, instead of using them to fight a real Akatsuki. A similar happened with the defeat of Hidan and Kakuzu where Yamato, Naruto, Sakura and Sai could have been part of the fight from the beginning. Apparently, Kishimoto liked telling us about teamwork, but he didn't like drawing them.

I'd like to say that there wasn't time for additional arcs, because the subplots that necessitated a time-skip needed to kick off after the time-skip ended. Except that after the first two arcs, there's another time-skip of about half a year. The starts of Part 2 was really poorly planned.






*Spoiler*: _@Baroxio_ 





Baroxio said:


> What "basics" did Naruto improve in, exactly? Everything he did when he came in after 3 years was something he's already done earlier on in the manga. Transforming into weapons? Zabuza fight. Using clones to avoid attacks while airborne? Gaara fight.
> 
> The only new things Naruto showed was a bigger Rasengan, which in many people's mind shouldn't have been needed since Rasengan is already an OHKO jutsu, and more Kyuubi chakra that he showed arguably less control over when compared to the Neji fight. That's it. That's literally all he accomplished over 3 years, a slight and unneeded improvement to a technique he learned in a month, and more Kyuubi with less control.
> 
> ...




Improving on the basics does not mean learning new things; it means being able to use the same skills on stronger opponents. Sure, you could say Naruto got a power level boost, but that would be unfair. In Part 1, Naruto was almost always improvising while in Part 2, Naruto is fighting with purpose. If Part 1 is about developing Naruto's fighting style, the time-skip is about perfecting that fighting style.

But to make his increased combat strength explicit, Naruto needed to fight someone without using the Kyuubi's power---and win. *Turrin* has a point there, I admit. The bell test was a teaser about Naruto's fighting abilities. The brief fight against 30% Itachi almost completely happened off panel so it was less than a teaser. The reader is expecting Naruto to go all out against some of these villains. Except it never happens! And it won't happen until Naruto learns Sage Mode.

The problem is that Kishimoto *tells* the reader about Naruto's growth but never bothers to *show* his growth. Yet to make matters worse, Kishimoto then starts undermining even that. So in theory, Naruto's growth is perfect when you consider he was on the road and is the least talented member of Team 7. But in practical terms, Naruto's time-skip had no effect on the plot so his growth might as well be non-existent.






*Spoiler*: _@Milliardo_ 





Milliardo said:


> well true hard work is hard to show in training sessions within manga. What they should do is show a few panels of them doing some sort of extreme conditioning then have a line say something like "3 months later" so that way we don't have to see boring training panels for multiple chapters.




That's certainly an option, and it's exactly what happened with the month in which Naruto learned the summoning technique. A good training arc needs to be plausible without becoming boring.




Milliardo said:


> which seems strange considering later on in the manga jinns were considered the village weapons. Why would someone underestimate somebody who can bust out demon chakra power when put in duress?




For the same reason you would underestimate a professional boxer when you decide to play a game of tennis. Ninja skills are not the same as a jinchuriki's power.




Milliardo said:


> so geniuses learn things that don't suit them then? Thats an interesting thought.
> 
> Here i thought with enough hard work and strong will you could accomplish anything.
> 
> Still i don't fully disagree with you shion I really don't.




Cute


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## Baroxio (Jan 27, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> *Spoiler*: _@Baroxio_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Naruto showed absolutely nothing new except bigger Rasengan (unneeded) and more Kyuubi power (uncontrolled). That is simply unacceptable for a 3 year time skip training with one of the strongest ninja of all time, especially when he pretty much learned at least the basics of most of that stuff within a single month or so. Sasuke came back with an explicit increases in combat strength AND basic skills. Hell, *SAKURA *came back with an explicit increase in combat strength and basic skills. Yet Naruto gaining _at least_ better basics couldn't even be effectively shown? 

Even you agree that Naruto supposed "increased combat strength" was NOT made explicit. Again as you mentioned, he just does what he did before, but against stronger opponents. Considering how (pre-Sage mode) this ALWAYS led to either more Kyuubi spam or Naruto needing to be saved and babied by his vastly more competent teammates, it's hard to see what, if any, improvements were made to his "basics." He ended up looking way more impressive in Part 1 with his so-called unrefined fighting style that actually managed to work half the time.  

Keeping Naruto's future powerups in mind, Naruto should have at least come back from the time-skip with knowledge of his chakra affinity and at least some onscreen training for the element. He should have shown that he was making some headway with summoning, and maybe feeling nature's energy for Sage Mode. Hell, he should have tried to make some working relationship with the damn Kyuubi if he was going to use it's power as haphazardly as he did in early Part 2!

Getting Naruto up to speed was the biggest and earliest mistake of Part 2, and it led to many of the other issues surrounding the series, like the depreciation of background characters into props and furniture.


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## DemonDragonJ (Jan 27, 2016)

While much has been said about how this series declined, I wonder: did any elements of it remain consistently good across its entire duration? Did the story have any redeeming qualities by the time that it ended?


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## Makoto Sensei (Jan 27, 2016)

I'd have to say the decline began with Naruto deciding to chase after Sasuke, then, shit became a thing with the whole Child of Prophecy deal. When you need to create a new plot point to make your MC relevant (and with it's _name_ as the story tittle for as overkill), you know you made a bad choice. :/


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## dr_shadow (Jan 28, 2016)

I'm watching the anime now, and they had a pretty neat structure with the 9 Akatsuki and corresponding 9 tailed beasts. Add in Orochimaru and his pursuit of Sasuke's body and you've got 10 arcs, spread over maybe as many years.

Didn't work out like that. Even though Part 2 did last 10 years, most of the Akatsuki were dead by year...5? 6? And I don't really recall what happened after. 

Not that I'm advocating episodic storytelling and villain-of-the-week, but establishing the length of the story ahead of time gives more focus then just making shit up as you go along.


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## Closet Pervert (Jan 28, 2016)

I was gonna say i was dissappointed at Sasuke vs. Itachi and the St. Itachi revelation afterwards was the first huge retard moment and that it was downhill from there; but people brought up good points as to why the decline started earlier. Still, i think up until Sasuke vs. Itachi i think the manga was salvageable.





DemonDragonJ said:


> While much has been said about how this series declined, I wonder: did any elements of it remain consistently good across its entire duration? Did the story have any redeeming qualities by the time that it ended?


No.


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## Turrin (Jan 28, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> While much has been said about how this series declined, I wonder: did any elements of it remain consistently good across its entire duration? Did the story have any redeeming qualities by the time that it ended?


I think the character designs and creative abilities were still present throughout much of the war-arc. I mean Mu, Gengetsu, Sandaime-Raikage, Hanzo, etc... abilities were all pretty cool if you ask me. However even that kind of dropped off once we got to the final part of the war


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## Turrin (Jan 28, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> *Spoiler*: _@Turrin_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could Team 7 or Team Gai take an Akatsuki 4v1 at the start of PII, absolutely they could, but I do not find that idea very entertaining ether, as it's still symptomatic of the same over arching issue, that the villains were way too strong for the heroes, and therefore needed to be criminally handicapped or the heroes ridiculous advantage for them loose. Battles like that are much less entertaining to me and much less impactful. If it's going to be a team-battle I want the enemies to have their own teammates, if it's going to be a solo battle I want the hero to be able to step to the villain by his own merits, not w/ other side advantages. Which is exactly what it was like in PI of the story. Naruto wasn't ridiculous advantaged when fighting Kiba, Neji, or Gaara. He wasn't ridiculous advantaged when fighting Sasuke at VOTE; and so on. 

But in PII, can you even cite to me a single fight where the heroes prevailed w/o absurd advantages? Sakura needed help from Chiyo, Prior prep to create antidotes, and ultimately Sasori allowing himself to be "hugged" by father and mother puppet, in-order to barely pull out a win. Naruto had help from Kakashi and Deidara missing an arm and next to no clay. Shikkamaru had knowledge, prior prep, strategic advantage of an ambush, and help from his team to barely pull out a win against Hidan. Kakuzu was ganged up on by everyone and their mom, on-top of even his own ally being turned against him.Naruto had every advantage imaginable against Pain. And so on.

Like I said Kishi took the rookies that were Chunin level at best (Some were barely Genin), did a time-skip realistically thus making them all advance to Chunin to Low-Jonin, depending on where they were at before, but than threw them up against villains like Sasori who defeated the strongest Kazekage in History and than gained said Kazekage's powers, which is completely unrealistic. There needed to another step where Rookies faced Jonin/Elite-Jonin, and reach High-Tier themselves, before going up against Akatsuki members, and even then, they probably would need more time before going up against the stronger members like Sasori, Itachi, Orochimaru, etc... But Kishimoto never did that; and the result was circumstances needing to favor the heroes to a laughable extent, most of the rookies becoming irrelevant as they couldn't keep up, and the main heroes needing to shoot up the power-scale in the later half of Part II at a completely unrealistic rate.



> I'd like to say that there wasn't time for additional arcs, because the subplots that necessitated a time-skip needed to kick off after the time-skip ended. Except that after the first two arcs, there's another time-skip of about half a year. The starts of Part 2 was really poorly planned


I don't see why there was not time. Akatsuki and Orochimaru had underlings that the heroes could have fought against, and there could have been gaps in time where Akatsuki was concerned w/ other Bijuu, for the heroes to say undertake Jonin or Anbu Exams or retake the Chunin Exams. There was plenty of time, Kishi just didn't want to take. Probably because Kishimoto thought up the idea of God Tier Characters like Madara around the end of PI, and was like if I don't rush this shit, then it will take decades for Naruto and company to realistically reach Madara's level, but than he shouldn't have made the power scale go that high.


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 28, 2016)

After the Gaara rescue arc was when it started declining. With Sasuke and the Uchiha basically taking a huge part of the center focus, both on the Naruto side and the Sasuke side, as well as Naruto throwing away his character with the child of prophecy nonsense.

 It only turned to absolute shit after the Pain arc where it threw away any allusion of telling a good story in favor of throwing everyone against each other and dropping all pretenses of trying to give characters any development to themselves. The last 200 chapters were probably some of the absolute worse story and character related decisions taken in a long running shounen series for me


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 28, 2016)

Turrin said:


> There's a difference between being an underdog drop out / looser, and not being born the strongest in the universe. Goku was an innate genius from the jump.



So was Gon Freecss, and he's still losing despite having one of the highest potential in the series. Goku lost a dozen of times over the course of the Dragon Ball manga, regardless of his talent. He lost to Jackie Chun and Tenshinhan in the Tenkaichi Budokai, the two being much more experienced fighter than Goku was at the time. He lost to Tambourine and Piccolo Daimao in a fit of rage. He got beaten up to a pulp by Vegeta, he got knocked out by #19, he couldn't beat Cell, nor could he beat Boo alone, he required the help from all the people of Earth. He still lost to Beerus despite being a god, and even then, that power he achieved wasn't his alone. It's the combined power of him and the other Saiyan characters. He got one-shot by Sorbet in Resurrection of F due to arrogance.

Naruto is just a faker presented as an underdog, when in truth, he's just Kishimoto's pet peeve.


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## HunterxH (Jan 28, 2016)

You could argue that the series's decline began after the very first arc.

There were so many plotlines, ideas, and the like that were just flat-out abandoned or ignored.

"In this world, there are shinobi younger than you, but stronger than me." Kakashi to Naruto.

That literally never happened. 

Naruto pledged over Zabuza and Haku's grave that he would change what it meant to be a ninja. He didn't like killing, and he questioned why he and Haku had to fight each other when they were able to have a casual conversation with one another as friends would. 

From then on the story should have focused on a more mature Naruto and his quest and answer to all of the sickness and illness the world and the shinobi system brings to people.

There was a time during the bell-test when Kakashi put his knife to Sasuke's throat and said, "Sakura, kill Naruto or Sasuke dies!" He then said that they would be put in a similar situation such as that.

But they never were.

They introduced the great nations and the villages....

But they never traveled there.

There was so much wasted potential from the first arc alone, and the series never delivered it's own hype, but many tuned in to see if it would. The show is over now, and it never did. Not even close.


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## Aduro (Jan 28, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> From then on the story should have focused on a more mature Naruto and his quest and answer to all of the sickness and illness the world and the shinobi system brings to people.
> 
> There was a time during the bell-test when Kakashi put his knife to Sasuke's throat and said, "Sakura, kill Naruto or Sasuke dies!" He then said that they would be put in a similar situation such as that.
> .



Actually Sakura was basially in a situation where she felt forced to kill Sasuke to save Naruto in the Land of Iron. And Naruto struggled to change the ninja world when he dealt with Kumogakure to stop them killing Sasuke, so that's part of his changing the world thing. Not to mention there are plenty of times like when he fought Pein in the end he refused to kill even when that's what he wanted and what would be easier, so in practice Naruto usually went against the brutality of the shinobi world. He even managed to befriend the Kyuubi by seeing it as a living being, basically unlike all the other people who used the Kyuubi as a weapon.

But when that stuff happened everyone treated it like a cop-out so having  Naruto do more to promote peace would probably get Kishi even more complaints of making Naruto ninja Jesus.

I do wish the epilogue explained more about how Naruto made peace as Hokage rather than spending half its time talking about new-gen kids who would be better off left to sequel spin-offs though.


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## Xhominid (Jan 28, 2016)

I'm going to be frank on the Shonen protagonists, Naruto is literally the worst protagonist that I have seen...and that's from someone who was a fan of Naruto the character for quite some time.

I'm gonna compare him to the other 2 members of the Big 3: Luffy and Ichigo. There's gonna be spoilers for Bleach and One Piece(kinda) by the by.

Luffy is a character...that really doesn't have much in the way of character development or really growing as a person. Not because Luffy hasn't been through hardship or anything but ultimately because Oda doesn't really focus on it. But what Luffy lacks in overall character growth, he absolutely makes it up in terms of actions and commitment. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



When Robin was captured by CP9 and Spandam basically threatened Luffy that he would be the enemy of the World Government, Luffy didn't hesitate for an instant to tell Ussop to shoot down their flag. Luffy went through pure hell of Magellan's poison and while still heavily recovering with that did everything to save Ace.



Luffy is pretty much a good embodiment of Goku because in truth, Goku himself isn't really a bad character at all despite not really being all that developed either...

Ichigo has always been someone I found weird that people would call him the worst, especially after reading something that actually showed Ichigo's character growth isn't obvious and it's more scattered around his reasons.
In truth, I find Ichigo is both the polar opposite and the other part of Goku. Just like Luffy and Goku, Ichigo doesn't really care if he's seen as the good guy or bad guy, he does what he's sees as right no matter the consequences and sees it through to the end. Despite how much he denies otherwise, he is on some level a Blood Knight just like Luffy and Goku, while he doesn't crave for fights like Goku, since his Hollow is basically him, he has some level of the same sentiments when it comes to fighting. The reason I say he's also the polar opposite is also because of the fact that he comes off also as the most realistic.
At first, he only really cared about who he sees and his own family and had to grow to start to care about more than just that. Unlike Naruto, he doesn't embrace or care about being the Savior of anything, he does it because he simply has the ability to and nothing else. People always talked about how Ichigo would always get depressed or sad over certain revelations but most of the time, it makes sense to.
I'm not saying Ichigo is perfect by any means, no siree, but I always did find it weird how people would easily toss him under the bus compared to Luffy and Naruto even in the beginning.

But back to Naruto. Plenty of people have already made the points known so it's kinda hard to say something different when many people got why Naruto is a terrible protagonist.
While yes, compared to Bolt Naruto did have to work hard for his abilities...but the problem is that the story seems to have no real clue about what constitutes as hard work, underdog and being a genius. Yes, hard work really is hard to pull off in a manga because ultimately how can you constitute hard work in a fictional setting? But the issue is that it doesn't stop Naruto from doing things that even the characters in-universe basically say that Naruto is a genius(How many Shadow Clones he can pull off or being able to make a clone and then have that clone henge into someone or something else, being able to create the Rasenshuriken when even your genius father couldn't do it before he died). Having someone be a better genius than you doesn't stop you from being a genius yourself, it just means someone is smarter/better than you. Even Neji is a more notable worker than Naruto because he had to reverse engineer the Eight Trigrams 64 Palm and Rotation despite no one helping him whatsoever and seeing it only based on sight.

Naruto as the Underdog also doesn't work because of the principle of Underdogs, Naruto rarely *lost*. Goku in Dragon Ball despite being a genius at fighting was still an underdog because he lost where it counts. Gon is a genius and is still an underdog because he also lost plenty of times. Even Ichigo and Luffy are underdogs because they lose just as much as they win. Naruto's most notable losses is against Sasuke at VoTE and when God Realm pinned him down as every other time was solved by Kurama helping out at the last second or barely really mattering in the long run. Even Ichigo had more issues with his Inner Hollow bailing him out then Naruto did when Kurama bailed him out as Ichigo's own pride pretty much imploded everytime it bailed him out.

And as others stated before, Naruto is still a prodigy just like Sasuke and hell, just like Rock Lee. The issue with how Kishimoto tried to do with "genius" is exactly the root cause of all this. If anything, Rock Lee nor Might Guy is honestly hard workers either because as Turrin(?) pointed out, their Gates pretty much exponentially boosts their powers beyond their scope at the cost of nearly killing them, which really gives off the wrong impression since that's not the reward for their hard work, that's basically a cheat sheet.
Ironically, _Hinata, Ino and even Sakura_ would be the prime example of hard workers of Kishimoto decided to focus a little more on them.

As some pointed out, Sakura had easily the biggest level growth of Team 7 during the Timeskip, turning from a fangirl who did virtually nothing noteworthy into basically close combat nightmare with healing abilities. All because she didn't want to be seen as useless anymore.
Ino went from a girl that was a one trick pony whose pretty much stuck to whoever she possesses for awhile into being able to shift her consciousness in and out of people with the quickness to the point it becomes very combat effective and even being able to control a god's consciousness for a second.
Hinata pretty much went from basically a failure to being able to fight alongside Neji as an equal(kinda, sorta) in the War Arc, even using a jutsu Neji never used onscreen. 

Everything else is pretty much what others state(Naruto's "goal" already being accomplished at the Pain Arc, him never realizing exactly what you do as a Hokage and it stays as an ideological fantasy, him never really leaving Kohona to learn other peoples' cultures to help him with the peace route, etc.) so there's no reason to keep that train going.

Sorry for the long winded post lol.


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## HunterxH (Jan 28, 2016)

Aduro said:


> Actually Sakura was basially in a situation where she felt forced to kill Sasuke to save Naruto in the Land of Iron. And Naruto struggled to change the ninja world when he dealt with Kumogakure to stop them killing Sasuke, so that's part of his changing the world thing. Not to mention there are plenty of times like when he fought Pein in the end he refused to kill even when that's what he wanted and what would be easier, so in practice Naruto usually went against the brutality of the shinobi world. He even managed to befriend the Kyuubi by seeing it as a living being, basically unlike all the other people who used the Kyuubi as a weapon.
> 
> But when that stuff happened everyone treated it like a cop-out so having  Naruto do more to promote peace would probably get Kishi even more complaints of making Naruto ninja Jesus.
> 
> I do wish the epilogue explained more about how Naruto made peace as Hokage rather than spending half its time talking about new-gen kids who would be better off left to sequel spin-offs though.



I was speaking mostly in the context of part 1, because after the Wave Country arc which was the "prologue" to the ninja world and the system they are all a part of, it jumped into the Chunin Exams right away and all of the potential from that arc was lost right away.

Anyways, Kakashi's example was a hostage situation, and his team having to find a way around a harsh situation. 

Second, Naruto begging for the life of an international criminal/fugitive, just because it was his friend, doesn't say much. He never did it for anyone else *except* for Sasuke. That's not going against the system, that's called being biased.

Third, Pein wanted to hear Naruto's answer for the hatred that the world has. He wanted to know how he would change it. Naruto never gave him a clear answer at all. All he said was, "I don't know but I know that I have to try! I'll never give up!" That doesn't mean anything. He didn't talk about creating a united nation, or village, to abolish the shinobi village system and have everyone live together as one family. He never even tried to abolish shinobis altogether, and attempt to implement something new entirely. He brought no ingenuity to the table, no real answers, he just said "I'll do it."

Befriending the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything to me, it was poorly executed and poorly planned. Naruto used to literally talk down to him like trash. "Give me power you stupid fox!" It also came far too late, as how did he manage to form a bond with a literal demon before he could save his own "best friend."


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## Aduro (Jan 28, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> Anyways, Kakashi's example was a hostage situation, and his team having to find a way around a harsh situation.


A harsh situation like a the person you love and who has saved your life becoming a terrorist and your friend planning to throw themselves into a life and death fight to stop them? Sakura's actions in the Land of Iron Arc were basically foreshadowed by that scene and Naruto found a way to stop Sasuke's rampage by challenging him and becoming the focal point of his revenge. I'd argue that in terms of the Team 7 relationship dynamics the end of the Land of Iron was one of the most productive and interesting parts of the manga.



> Second, Naruto begging for the life of an international criminal/fugitive, just because it was his friend, doesn't say much. He never did it for anyone else *except* for Sasuke. That's not going against the system, that's called being biased.


How about trying to appeal to Gaara after the sand invasion? He had plenty of right to kill Gaara at that point, no way Zabuza wouldn't have done, but Naruto instead chose to talk with him. Although that was arguably the most drastic TNJ in the manga people treat that conclusion as gold because Naruto fans can be worse than genwunners. But really Naruto forgave most of his enemies if he got the chance and didn't seek to kill them besides twice with Deidara and Orochimaru provoked him  into a fight and the Kyuubi took over.



> Third, Pein wanted to hear Naruto's answer for the hatred that the world has. He wanted to know how he would change it. Naruto never gave him a clear answer at all. All he said was, "I don't know but I know that I have to try! I'll never give up!" That doesn't mean anything. He didn't talk about creating a united nation, or village, to abolish the shinobi village system and have everyone live together as one family. He never even tried to abolish shinobis altogether, and attempt to implement something new entirely. He brought no ingenuity to the table, no real answers, he just said "I'll do it."


True, Naruto didn't have an easy or simple answer to world peace, but the epilogue suggests there was peace. Naruto met with the 5 kages in a much less tense meeting than in the Pre-4th Shinobi War Kage Summit. Most of the kids in the epilogue were born from former enemies, an Uchiha, a root member and several people from other villages were all comfortable enough to 
have kids with people in Konoha and the kages wandered into Konoha with no real security and looked relaxed. We didn't see it much becuase peace meeting would be dull but Naruto still presided over a very different shinobi world long after he became Hokage.



> Befriending the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything to me, it was poorly executed and poorly planned. Naruto used to literally talk down to him like trash. "Give me power you stupid fox!" It also came far too late, as how did he manage to form a bond with a literal demon before he could save his own "best friend."


Because Kurama was just something called a demon, really Naruto is the ideal person not to take that at face value after his childhood. Also Bunpuku and Killer Bee managed to see bijuu as people too so after Naruto had just seen a lot of both his own and the Kyuubi's personalities he might do the same. Throw in a common enemy, Madara, as a catalyst and Naruto's charisma and its not so odd that they could co-operate.


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## Hazuki (Jan 28, 2016)

Chrollo Lucilfer said:


> When ero-sennin died, can't rememeber his name, Jsomething


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## balthosai (Jan 28, 2016)

noticeably after the pein arc.

went full fucking retard in the 4th shinobi war arc.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> So was Gon Freecss, and he's still losing despite having one of the highest potential in the series. Goku lost a dozen of times over the course of the Dragon Ball manga, regardless of his talent. He lost to Jackie Chun and Tenshinhan in the Tenkaichi Budokai, the two being much more experienced fighter than Goku was at the time. He lost to Tambourine and Piccolo Daimao in a fit of rage. He got beaten up to a pulp by Vegeta, he got knocked out by #19, he couldn't beat Cell, nor could he beat Boo alone, he required the help from all the people of Earth. He still lost to Beerus despite being a god, and even then, that power he achieved wasn't his alone. It's the combined power of him and the other Saiyan characters. He got one-shot by Sorbet in Resurrection of F due to arrogance.
> 
> Naruto is just a faker presented as an underdog, when in truth, he's just Kishimoto's pet peeve.


And Gon isn't a drop out looser under dog ether. Whether someone looses or not doesn't mean anything ether; Sasuke lost some times too, didn't change the fact that he was a genius and hardly an underdog at all.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And Gon isn't a drop out looser under dog ether. Whether someone looses or not doesn't mean anything ether; Sasuke lost some times too, didn't change the fact that he was a genius and hardly an underdog at all.



Then what makes a character an underdog to you?


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## Indra (Jan 29, 2016)

Best way to classify one is maybe a character who started from the bottom? That's my opinion anyway.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> I
> Naruto as the Underdog also doesn't work because of the principle of Underdogs, Naruto rarely *lost*.


Being the underdog doesn't have to do with Win Loss Ratio, it has to do with where you start out and your innate ability, relative to what you wish to achieve. Besides achieving TKB quickly due to Plot Kai, Naruto otherwise was horribly unskilled compared to his fellow classmates and had to work his ass off to barely erk out wins against them, when they were otherwise more powerful and more innate skillful then himself. And while amount of wins/losses don't matter, the actual context of the losses themselves do, for example Naruto loosing to Sasuke at VOTE even after training and working his ass off so hard in Part I, cements Naruto as the underdog as he is still coming up short compared to the real geniuses of his generation, which people would look to before him to become Hokage.

Goku and Ichigo never had issues like that ever. Goku would WTFPWN anyone from his generation at his age, proven by the fact that after minimal training he was dominating World Martial Art's Tournaments and was only being defeated by people much much older than him, like Master Roshi, Tein, and Piccolo. That's like if Naruto could WTFPN anyone from his generation with one hand tied behind his back, and people still called him an underdog because he barely lost out to Jiraiya in a fight; it's pretty ridiculous. 

Ichigo also would have decimated anyone who started as a Shinigami at the same time as him, illustrated by the fact that within like 2 Arcs he is able to take on Captain class Shinigami and win. Again Ichigo was immediately fighting against characters who have trained for Centuries to hone their craft well before Ichigo even got his powers, and he was doing so competitively after very minor training. That's not an underdog, that's an innate Genius fulfilling his insane potential.

----

With that said I agree once we get deeper into Part II Kishi undermines Naruto's character completely, and suddenly Naruto also becomes like Goku and Ichigo, in the sense that he is gaining power so quickly due to his innate talent and destiny; and is vastly far ahead of his peers fight character who have had eons more exp then him, but that's not how the character is in Part I, save the TKB Plot Kai in the very first chapter.



HoroHoro said:


> Then what makes a character an underdog to you?


See above


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## Sword Sage (Jan 29, 2016)

I will say that the manga started to decline, because of all the Uchiha plot and Sasuke seemed to have taken over the show after the Immortal arc and we barely get to see more of Naruto in action before Pain along with Team 8 and Gai who rarely get to show their growth in Part 2 or even get a personal battle with each member of the Akatsuki.

And Neji's death was out of the blue and been forgotten until last chapter, and Hinata's confession wasn't developed after the fight with Pain all went back to background for the sake of the Uchiha plot and the prince.

Rarely get to know more about the Uzumaki clan and Hyuga clan history but more with Uchiha.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 29, 2016)

Also, who gives a shit about innate talent? It's all in the execution, which Naruto fails at miserably. Naruto is supposed to be an underdog but became the world's greatest snowflake. Gon and Killua are supposed to be special snowflakes due to their innate talent but constantly lose over the course of Hunter x Hunter, have yet to do anything heroic and are inferior to the majority of the Hunters they've met.

What makes Gon an underdog is that his personality is taken to an extreme and treated realistically, instead of idealistically like Naruto Uzumaki. His optimism prevents him from accepting Kite's death, his determination leads him to hurting himself and others into save Kite, his loyalty devolves into crushing guilt and self-pity, those are generic traits for a shonen protagonist, but Gon is in a setting where they don't quite 'work'. 

What also makes him amazing as a character unlike Naruto is the dilemmas he handles. Fighting an enemy who hurt Naruto's friends? That's pretty standard for shonen heroes, and it usually results in Naruto being the hero who saved the day in a noble and righteous manner, and it's portrayed as a victorious win. The way Gon killed Nerferpitou (brutally, one-sided, without coming up from the losing position as the underdog, without working hard for it, after s/he showed some humanity) stripped it of all the good things that usually come with a revenge plot for an protagonist. He was willing to give up his life and all that potential he had in exchange for some petty grudge he held over Nerferpitou.


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## Turrin (Jan 29, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Also, who gives a shit about innate talent?


Innate talent decides whether your an underdog or not. Someone who is super innately talented like Goku, like Gon, etc... is not an underdog. 



> Naruto is supposed to be an underdog but became the world's greatest snowflake. Gon and Killua are supposed to be special snowflakes due to their innate talent but constantly lose over the course of Hunter x Hunter, have yet to do anything heroic and are inferior to the majority of the Hunters they've met.


Again win/loss is irrelevant. Gon and Goku's ability relative to their goal is. Gon wants to be a top hunter and Goku wanted to win the Wordl's Martial Art Tournament. Gon loosing some fights at the age of 12 against people who have decades of experience, training, etc.. on him, does not make Gon an underdog, because the fact that he could tango with these characters at his age, at all, makes him exceptional and obvious that he will easily achieve his goal simply through the progression of time. Same thing w/ Goku. 

Naruto on the other hand is different. He is an underdog, because his skill in Part I and Early Part II ranges from tragically bellow average (for his age) to a best average. And he is therefore forced to compensate for this by working his ass off and come up w/ highly creative strategies, just to barely be able to compete with his peers. 

Gon and Goku would never struggle this way, because they are genius superman compared to almost all of their peers, and would wreck almost anyone who had the same amount of time and training as they did. Gon and Goku again only struggle primarily with season veterans, masters of their craft, or unique genetic monsters that are off that level. The equivalent of that in the Naruto verse would be Naruto at 12-13 struggling w/ Elite Jonin and Kage class individuals, and if you want losses, Naruto certainly lost plenty of times to individuals like that; In FOD to Orochimaru, In Sannin duel to Kabuto, and so on. 



> What makes Gon an underdog is that his personality is taken to an extreme and treated realistically, instead of idealistically like Naruto Uzumaki. His optimism prevents him from accepting Kite's death, his determination leads him to hurting himself and others into save Kite, his loyalty devolves into crushing guilt and self-pity, those are generic traits for a shonen protagonist, but Gon is in a setting where they don't quite 'work'.
> 
> What also makes him amazing as a character unlike Naruto is the dilemmas he handles. Fighting an enemy who hurt Naruto's friends? That's pretty standard for shonen heroes, and it usually results in Naruto being the hero who saved the day in a noble and righteous manner, and it's portrayed as a victorious win. The way Gon killed Nerferpitou (brutally, one-sided, without coming up from the losing position as the underdog, without working hard for it, after s/he showed some humanity) stripped it of all the good things that usually come with a revenge plot for an protagonist. He was willing to give up his life and all that potential he had in exchange for some petty grudge he held over Nerferpitou.


This all has to do with whose a better character as well as which series has a better plot, not whose an underdog and who isn't. I completely agree that HunterXHunter >>>>>Naruto, and that Gon is a better protagonist than Naruto. That isn't the issue, like at all, as i've been pretty outspoken about the fact that I think the Naruto manga is the worst piece of crap i've ever read from a Narrative and plot perspective.

My point simply was that Naruto put a new spin on the main shonen protagonist that was not present before in main stream shonen Manga/Anime, which is part of the reason Naruto become such a popular Manga/Anime. This spin, being that the protagonist was a loser/drop out under dog, rather than an innate superman/genius relative to their age, that we'd had previous seen in most main stream shonen, I.E. Goku and Gon types.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 29, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Then what makes a character an underdog to you?




The status of underdog can vary from fight to fight based on the likelihood they would win the fight. So talented characters like Goku, Gon Freecs, Luffy and others can be the underdog *in a particular fight.* But this is a relative and temporary definition of "underdog".

Rock Lee is not just an underdog because he's unlikely to win a particular fight; *he's unlikely to succeed in a ninja career.* This is an absolute and long-term definition of "underdog". A definition that doesn't apply to characters like Goku, Gon Freecs, Luffy and others because these characters are *on average* expected to succeed at anything they try. Naruto is not on average expected to succeed at anything. In fact, the manga makes it a point that Naruto manages to defy people's expectations of him.

Now, you could make an argument that the other characters in the narutoverse are wrong to think of Naruto as the underdog. That doesn't change how they perceive Naruto as the underdog. Nor how Naruto perceives himself as the underdog.



BTW, it doesn't matter that Naruto becomes the strongest (or second strongest) fighter of his world. Like a rags to riches story, it's not about how a character ends up (rich / strong) but how a character started (poor / weak).


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## Milliardo (Jan 29, 2016)

An underdog is one thought to be or perceived as weaker/lesser than the competiion in a event/fight.

Naruto could easily beat his peers like mid part one especially after learning rasengan. He beat Gaara before even having rasengan. Just clones and summoning jutsu. Gaara had the power greater than any chuunin or jounin basically.

By the end of Part one naruto would have no problem whatsoever beating them. There wasn't much time passing either. 

If you are talking in manga perception then yeah naruto was considered weak at least for a period but I never understood because he had fox power backing him. Outside the manga though I don't understand how you could have that view for long. I mean naruto beat up Sasuke early on and transformed as him to to trick Sakura into liking him. That was before Kakashi even started training them.


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## Keishin (Jan 29, 2016)

But Naruto always was the son of the legendary hokage, raised by the legendary other hokage, had a chakra beast inside of him making him kind of strong and having potential as much as possible in the verse...


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 29, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Innate talent decides whether your an underdog or not. Someone who is super innately talented like Goku, like Gon, etc... is not an underdog.



Are you fucking kidding me? The narratives made it clear Goku and Gon are talented. Kishimoto was the only one who pretended his main character was an underdog.



> Again win/loss is irrelevant. Gon and Goku's ability relative to their goal is. Gon wants to be a top hunter and Goku wanted to win the Wordl's Martial Art Tournament. Gon loosing some fights at the age of 12 against people who have decades of experience, training, etc.. on him, does not make Gon an underdog, because the fact that he could tango with these characters at his age, at all, makes him exceptional and obvious that he will easily achieve his goal simply through the progression of time. Same thing w/ Goku.
> 
> Naruto on the other hand is different. He is an underdog, because his skill in Part I and Early Part II ranges from tragically bellow average (for his age) to a best average. And he is therefore forced to compensate for this by working his ass off and come up w/ highly creative strategies, just to barely be able to compete with his peers.



You're joking, right? Who else in Konoha 11, aside from Sasuke, had a technique comparable to Rasengan in power, even as early as Part 1? By the end of Part 1, he already surpassed everyone in Konoha 11. Also, he could always rely on Kurama to save his ass, like in his fight with Haku or Neji. Compensate for what? He's never disadvantaged, not in bloodline power, not even in innate talent. He mastered Shadow Clone overnight, Summoning in two days and Rasengan in a month.



> Gon and Goku would never struggle this way, because they are genius superman compared to almost all of their peers, and would wreck almost anyone who had the same amount of time and training as they did. Gon and Goku again only struggle primarily with season veterans, masters of their craft, or unique genetic monsters that are off that level. The equivalent of that in the Naruto verse would be Naruto at 12-13 struggling w/ Elite Jonin and Kage class individuals, and if you want losses, Naruto certainly lost plenty of times to individuals like that; In FOD to Orochimaru, In Sannin duel to Kabuto, and so on.




Gon and Killua were still weaker than veteran Hunters like Morel, they even lost to Knuckle and Shoot, and they didn't stand a chance at all with main villains like Mereum. Goku was still weaker than the likes of Tenshinhan and Jackie Chun by the time of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, he was still weaker than Piccolo Daimao before he drank the Ultra Divine Water. He still lost to Vegeta despite his training with King Kai in the Saiyan saga, he got knocked by Vegeta on their second match in the Boo saga. He was still far inferior to Beerus despite being a god himself. I got the impression you have never actually read Hunter x Hunter or Dragon Ball. You think Naruto struggled more than Gon? Gon is like, the most underpowered main character compared to the average powerlevel in the Hunter x Hunter Universe.



> This all has to do with whose a better character as well as which series has a better plot, not whose an underdog and who isn't. I completely agree that HunterXHunter >>>>>Naruto, and that Gon is a better protagonist than Naruto. That isn't the issue, like at all, as i've been pretty outspoken about the fact that I think the Naruto manga is the worst piece of crap i've ever read from a Narrative and plot perspective.
> 
> My point simply was that Naruto put a new spin on the main shonen protagonist that was not present before in main stream shonen Manga/Anime, which is part of the reason Naruto become such a popular Manga/Anime. This spin, being that the protagonist was a loser/drop out under dog, rather than an innate superman/genius relative to their age, that we'd had previous seen in most main stream shonen, I.E. Goku and Gon types.



That’s what I said earlier, Naruto is popular because it's wish fulfillment for losers. Naruto is a fake underdog, he's self-insert material for people who aren't truly disadvantaged but likes to see themselves as victims, and the "winners" as the enemies. They're not underdogs, they're just people with a underdog complex. 

Underdog is a new spin thanks to Naruto? I'm under the impression you haven't read much manga except for Naruto and other wide popular manga series. Ashita no Joe and Hajime no Ippo has handled the underdog themes before Naruto, and better on top of that. Dropout with issues? Yu Yu Hakusho has also handled that thematic before Naruto, remember Yusuke Urameshi?


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## Milliardo (Jan 29, 2016)

Keishin said:


> But Naruto always was the son of the legendary hokage, raised by the legendary other hokage, had a chakra beast inside of him making him kind of strong and having potential as much as possible in the verse...



This is exactly what I'm talking about. Naruto had the greatest potential from the beginning. With his advantages you would have to expect him to be great or it shouldnt be surprising.

See the thing is that naruto didn't have people seriously training him. The Konoha 11 had their parents training them. Even Sasuke learned jutsu with his family before they passed. They had a leg up on Naruto in that department.

Once naruto got down to serious training we see how good he really is. Shadow clone jutsu was a higher ranked jutsu and he learned it in like a half day. Rasengan was the  highest chakra manipulation or whatever and he learned it in a month. The list goes on. 

Sure he had to train for them but it didn't take long at all. If your claiming he had to work at it well I'm sure they all did. Sasuke had to bust his ass to learn chidori. Rock Lee busted his ass for many years to get where he was at in Part one. I don?t get how working towards something  negates naruto being talented.


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## Muah (Jan 29, 2016)

I said it once i'll say it again. When Oro died the show went with him. Oro came back but he didn't bring the quality with him. After Oro died there was about four good moments left in the Manga. Everything Jiriya did, the first five minutes of naruto vs pein and then naruto vs omoi in base, killerbee and madara right up until he absorbed obito.

So as far as Part 2 is concerned there are four good characters.

Naruto 
Killerbee
Madara
and 
Jiriya.


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## DSTREET45 (Jan 29, 2016)

*Spoiler*: _Underdog_ 



1. One that is *expected* to lose a contest or struggle, as in sports or politics.
2. One that is at a disadvantage.
Source: 





HoroHoro said:


> Goku was still weaker than the likes of Tenshinhan and Jackie Chun by the time of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai,


No he wasn't. Jackie Chun tricked Goku in a head charge knowing that he'd be able to get a better hit in since he has longer legs than Goku. Even if Chun was stronger, which he probably was, it still doesn't make Goku a underdog. Nearly everyone, including Chun himself thought that Goku had a good shot at winning the tournament, something which wouldn't be thought of for an underdog.

Tien also had to destroy the ring after Goku countered all of his techniques basing his decision on the fact that he could fly while Goku couldn't making Goku lose via ringout since he knew or at least implied that he couldn't beat Goku head on. Goku then uses a kamehameha to propel himself to hit Tien which KO'd Tien so he couldn't fly either. Then by squeezing out one last tiny burst of energy he was able to get to a higher position than Tien and ultimately lost due to lolplotbus. Hell Tien outright admits inferiority after the match.

And again nobody thought that Goku had didn't have a shot at winning the tournament thereby not making him the underdog.



> he was still weaker than Piccolo Daimao before he drank the Ultra Divine Water.



And? As Turrnin said Goku lost since Piccolo had decades of experience and started out stronger from the bat. And I thought you said that Naruto wasn't an underdog since he had a Kyubi to give him power when he needed and you're calling Goku an underdog when he recieved a powerup in order to contend with Piccolo?



> He still lost to Vegeta despite his training with King Kai in the Saiyan saga,



And? Being expected to lose a fight determines whether someone is an underdog. Not if that person actually won or not. 



> he got knocked by Vegeta on their second match in the Boo saga.



Because Vegeta played Goku by having him think that they were going to fight Buu together while he was really going to cheap shot him while Goku turned away to get the sensu bean.



> He was still far inferior to Beerus despite being a god himself.





			
				To reiterate said:
			
		

> And? Being expected to lose a fight determines whether someone is an underdog. Not if that person actually won or not.


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## Milliardo (Jan 29, 2016)

Well the question remains are you guys arguing in manga perception of Naruto or out?


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## HunterxH (Jan 29, 2016)

un?der?dog
ˈəndərˌd?ɡ/
noun
noun: underdog; plural noun: underdogs

    a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest.

That's webster's definition of an underdog. 

Subjectively: He fit the mold up until his fight against Pein. 

Objectively: He stopped being one after his fight against Mizuki, because we knew that he had the Kyuubi hax to bail him out time and time again. Hard for anyone to seriously tell me that *objectively speaking*, you thought Naruto had little chance of winning against Neji (Kyuubi hax), Gaara, (Kyuubi + Gamabunta), or Kiba. 

The only fight that you could say that Naruto had a very slim chance of winning, *even with Kyuubi hax*, was against Sasuke in their first fight, mostly because Sasuke had become extraordinarily more powerful over an extremely brief time span, and there was no way that even pure Kyuubi hax would change the outcome of that fight.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 29, 2016)

Keishin said:


> But Naruto always was the son of the legendary hokage, raised by the legendary other hokage, had a chakra beast inside of him making him kind of strong and having potential as much as possible in the verse...





Milliardo said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about. Naruto had the greatest potential from the beginning. With his advantages you would have to expect him to be great or it shouldnt be surprising.
> 
> [...]




Which is why I personally don't understand the criticism. The reader knows from chapter 1 onwards that Naruto contains the most powerful beast in the narutoworld. That creates a certain expectation that Naruto will reach similar power---regardless of Naruto's perceived or actual talent.

And the likelihood that one or both of Naruto's parents were special was also very high. It's a clich? in these kinds of stories. By all means, criticise it for the clich? it is. But unlike the kyuubi, it had no plot relevance.




Milliardo said:


> Well the question remains are you guys arguing in manga perception of Naruto or out?




I believe that one of the things that made Part 1 great, is that Kishimoto gave a twist to the clich?s that are common in this genre. From chapter 1 onwards, we know that (A) Naruto is untalented; and (B) Naruto contains the most feared beast of his world. And then Kishimoto started playing with this discrepancy. Just as the characters perceive Naruto to be untalented, so does the audience.

Rock Lee represents the clich? that hard work allows you to beat talented people. True, by all appearances Rock Lee has become powerful enough to beat Neji---all according to the clich?. But look at Lee's character arc in Part 1! Kishimoto gives it a twist by giving Rock Lee a vicious career-ending injury that demonstrates the brutal reality of Lee's life. In addition to that, Might Guy and Rock Lee are training day and night. Something that the talented people don't have to: Sasuke gains in ONE WEEK what Rock Lee gained in a year.

So in terms of talent: Sasuke > Neji > Naruto > Rock Lee​And thus in terms of their dependence on hard work: Rock Lee > Naruto > Neji > Sasuke​It even works for the start of Part 2 in terms of skill / power: Sasuke > Neji (jonin) > Naruto > Rock Lee (chunin)​
Which brings me to what might be Kishimoto's biggest weakness: his inability to acknowledge / recognize what he has written. Because his writing has firmly established that Naruto is more talented than Rock Lee but less talented than Sasuke. Unfortunately, Part 2 reverts back to clich? that a character is either talented or dependent on hard work. It's even made explicit at the end where Indra is the talented one and Asura the untalented one.

Kishimoto's writing can often be likened to someone who starts to tell a joke but forgets to tell the punchline. The punchline of Part 1, is that Naruto is not nearly as untalented as either the characters or the audience perceive him to be. Yet somehow, both Kishimoto and his editors manage to ignore this punchline.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Are you fucking kidding me? The narratives made it clear Goku and Gon are talented. Kishimoto was the only one who pretended his main character was an underdog.


That's what i'm saying man. Gon and Goku were clearly portrayed as exceptionally talented from the Jump; Naruto was not. Whether Kishimoto pulled that off effectively or not, isn't the point, the intent is.



> Who else in Konoha 11, aside from Sasuke, had a technique comparable to Rasengan in power, even as early as Part 1? By the end of Part 1, he already surpassed everyone in Konoha 11. Also, he could always rely on Kurama to save his ass, like in his fight with Haku or Neji. Compensate for what? He's never disadvantaged, not in bloodline power, not even in innate talent. .


It took Naruto an immense amount of hard-work and effort to make it too the top of the Konoha 11 by the End of Part II, which is the point, he's an underdog that excels through hard work, as oppose to Goku who would rape anyone his age from the Jump in both power as well as talent. Yes by the end of Part I Naruto is one of the best Konoha Rookies, but he is still bested by Sasuke, and could have still potentially lost to characters like Neji, Lee, and Choji; as well as being an overall inferior Ninja (not everything is about 1v1 combat) to Shikkamaru. And the thing is nothing said those top Konoha Shinobi represented the best of Naruto's generation ether, in-fact the existence of other elites from the Sand Village, directly challenged that idea, so Naruto by the end of the first half of the story through extreme hard work finally catching up to the strongest Leaf Rookies, really didn't stop him from being an underdog, when it came to achieving his goal of being the strongest Hokage ever.



> He mastered Shadow Clone overnight, Summoning in two days and Rasengan in a month


Putting aside Shadow Clone, it took him a Month of hardwork to gain the ability to summon highly inconsistently, as his summoning attempts still often failed. Rasengan was a month of absolute intense training, and in the end he still needed to use a clone to help him form Rasengan, so his training was not complete. And while Rasengan is powerful, is it anymore powerful than things like Gates, Chidori, Butter Fly Mode, 2 Head Wolf, Kiri Kiri Mai, etc... imo, not really, most of the rookies as of Rescue Sasuke Arc, or in some cases before then commanded techniques as good if not better in some cases than Rasengan. 



> Gon and Killua were still weaker than veteran Hunters like Morel, they even lost to Knuckle and Shoot, and they didn't stand a chance at all with main villains like Mereum. Goku was still weaker than the likes of Tenshinhan and Jackie Chun by the time of the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, he was still weaker than Piccolo Daimao before he drank the Ultra Divine Water. He still lost to Vegeta despite his training with King Kai in the Saiyan saga, he got knocked by Vegeta on their second match in the Boo saga. He was still far inferior to Beerus despite being a god himself. I got the impression you have never actually read Hunter x Hunter or Dragon Ball. You think Naruto struggled more than Gon? Gon is like, the most underpowered main character compared to the average powerlevel in the Hunter x Hunter Universe.


I repeat, because clearly you did not read my post properly, "Gon and Goku *would never struggle this way*, because they are genius superman *compared *to almost all of *their peers*, and would wreck almost *anyone who had the same amount of time and training as they did*. Gon and Goku again *only struggle primarily with season veterans, masters of their craft, or unique genetic monsters* that are off that level. The equivalent of that in the Naruto verse would be Naruto at 12-13 struggling w/ Elite Jonin and Kage class individuals, and if you want losses, Naruto certainly lost plenty of times to individuals like that; In FOD to Orochimaru, In Sannin duel to Kabuto, and so on."



> Underdog is a new spin thanks to Naruto? I'm under the impression you haven't read much manga except for Naruto and other wide popular manga series. Ashita no Joe and Hajime no Ippo has handled the underdog themes before Naruto, and better on top of that. Dropout with issues? Yu Yu Hakusho has also handled that thematic before Naruto, remember Yusuke Urameshi?


Nether of those characters are underdog's. Yusuke was an innate genius and Ippo had superhuman strength for whatever reason. 

Again loosing to people isn't what it means to be an underdog.

Naruto was an underdog in Part I and Early Part II, because his talent was bellow average, many people were proactively against him, while he had few people supporting him (due to his connection to the demon fox), and because he needed to work his ass of just to be competitive among the top rookies in just his village, but ultimately still inferior to at least 2 in different regards, and than there were still many other villages with elites likely better than him as well; this taken into context with his goal of becoming the greatest hokage of the leaf village, made him an extremely unlikely underdog candidate to achieve something like that.

There was never any doubt in my mind that Goku would eventually be able to win the Martial Art's tournament, that Yusuke would become a great spirit detective, or that Gon will become a great hunter. Why because they were never underdogs when it came to achieving that shit. Goku was already able to fight the past winner of the martial art tournament who had decades more exp and training then him competitively by arc 2 of the manga. Yusuke was already beating high class demons by arc 1-2. and so on...

Ippo it's a bit different, eventually Ippo became an underdog, but that was well into the manga's run, initially Ippo was portrayed as quite dominant compared to most of his peers, w/ like zero looses, until finally Date put an end to that. Though even then I wouldn't consider him a true underdog, just less dominant.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> un?der?dog
> ˈəndərˌd?ɡ/
> noun
> noun: underdog; plural noun: underdogs
> ...


From a narrative perspective your never not going to bet against the hero figuring out some way to win. So saying Naruto wasn't an underdog, because you wouldn't bet on him loosing to me is a pointless merit to judge him on; as I wouldn't bet on him loosing if he didn't have Kyuubi or if say Tenten was the main protagonist, I wouldn't bet on her loosing most matches ether. 

Instead what matters is from an inverse perspective what was Naruto's chances of winning depicted as, and his chances Kyuubi or no Kyuubi, were always consistently depicted as low. For example when Naruto declared war against Neji, his chances were next to zero and no one thought he stood any chance, he than trained his ass off to improve, and even still his chances were low enough where everyone still thought he lost the match after clashing against Neji's Kaiten, including Neji himself, and only through the skin of his teeth via a last ditch creative desperation ploy did he managed to barely irk out the win.

So yeah, Naruto certainly fits that definition, throughout Part I and Early Part II.


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## Skywalker (Jan 30, 2016)

Just after the Itachis death.


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## HunterxH (Jan 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> From a narrative perspective your never not going to bet against the hero figuring out some way to win. So saying Naruto wasn't an underdog, because you wouldn't bet on him loosing to me is a pointless merit to judge him on; as I wouldn't bet on him loosing if he didn't have Kyuubi or if say Tenten was the main protagonist, I wouldn't bet on her loosing most matches ether.
> 
> Instead what matters is from an inverse perspective what was Naruto's chances of winning depicted as, and his chances Kyuubi or no Kyuubi, were always consistently depicted as low. For example when Naruto declared war against Neji, his chances were next to zero and no one thought he stood any chance, he than trained his ass off to improve, and even still his chances were low enough where everyone still thought he lost the match after clashing against Neji's Kaiten, including Neji himself, and only through the skin of his teeth via a last ditch creative desperation ploy did he managed to barely irk out the win.
> 
> So yeah, Naruto certainly fits that definition, throughout Part I and Early Part II.



A good story can make you doubt the outcome of a fight, even if it involves the main protagonist. So that's a cop-out answer. 

If Ten-Ten was the main character and she was matched up against Temari in the Chuunin Exams, then if Kishi was worth his salt as a writer (which he's not), then we the audience would know that she wouldn't stand a chance against her the moment we saw what Temari was capable of.

If Neji had went against anyone else. Literally anyone else, he would have won. But instead he went against someone who was born with the almighty Kyuubi inside of him, which nullified the effects of Neji's ultimate technique, the Eight Trigrams 64 Palms. 

Remember that Naruto's training was based around utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra. Hence why Jiraiya undid the seal, and taught him how to summon Gamabunta. No one else had that luxury except for Naruto. Objectively speaking, he had already surpassed everyone in his class mid-way through Part I, even Sasuke, which was why Sasuke left the village in the first place.


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## Arthas (Jan 30, 2016)

Problem with defining an underdog status to Naruto is whether he is talented or not, he always had the Kyuubi.

That's like saying a person might or might not have no talent as a sniper but he has a rifle that shoots nuclear bombs. 

This causes a disconnect between in-universe and readers because while in-universe Naruto might be looked at as without talent, the readers know he has the kyuubi and it's just a question of when or if Naruto will use it.

Now be honest if you consider the Neji fight with a Kyuubi using Naruto from the start, then would you consider Naruto the underdog?

The only real fight (against his age group) that I believe Naruto was an underdog in was Kiba (due to Kyuubi being sealed) and even there he wasn't exactly an underdog but more about the same level.

The Haku fight could also be considered for underdog status but that was also the fight that established Kyuubi-Naruto's overdog credentials.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 30, 2016)

Arthas said:


> Problem with defining an underdog status to Naruto is whether he is talented or not, he always had the Kyuubi.
> 
> That's like saying a person might or might not have no talent as a sniper but he has a rifle that shoots nuclear bombs.
> 
> ...



at least in the early parts, there were always risks to letting the kyuubi out, and he couldn't control when it came. it wasn't just a source of free power that he could access whenever with no consequences. so i don't think it's as cut and dry as "because he had the kyuubi, he was almost never an underdog"


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> A good story can make you doubt the outcome of a fight, even if it involves the main protagonist. So that's a cop-out answer.


Doubting the outcome, is not the same thing as betting against. When Naruto went up against Neji, I though there was a chance Naruto could loose, so there was some doubt, but I still wouldn't bet against him, because based on prior precedence the heroes usually win in those situations.



> If Ten-Ten was the main character and she was matched up against Temari in the Chuunin Exams, then if Kishi was worth his salt as a writer (which he's not), then we the audience would know that she wouldn't stand a chance against her the moment we saw what Temari was capable of.
> 
> If Neji had went against anyone else. Literally anyone else, he would have won. But instead he went against someone who was born with the almighty Kyuubi inside of him, which nullified the effects of Neji's ultimate technique, the Eight Trigrams 64 Palms.


The manga established that Naruto didn't stand a chance against Neji ether. Naruto trained for an entire month to gain the ability to enter KN0 on command, and still that alone was not enough to beat Neji. Neji lost because he underestimated Naruto believing that because Naruto was such an underdog loser he was destined to fail, giving Naruto an opening he otherwise would not have had, allowing him barely beat Neji.



> Remember that Naruto's training was based around utilizing the Kyuubi's chakra. Hence why Jiraiya undid the seal, and taught him how to summon Gamabunta. No one else had that luxury except for Naruto. .


Kyuubi helped Naruto in the sense that it gave him more chakra and access to more raw power. But it also hurt Naruto making his chakra harder to control (thus wasting a great deal of it and making it more difficult to learn basic skills), hurt Naruto because the more power he tried to draw from Kyuubi the more he risked loosing himself to it and hurting his friends, hurt Naruto because it placed a stigma on him that made most people in the village mistrust him and thus difficult for him to gain allies and the appreciation of the people (both of which are necessary to become Hokage, let alone the greatest Hokage Yet).

So Kyuubi helped and hurt Naruto, and even w/ the power he could draw out of it, it still wasn't enough to beat Neji, and he needed luck, creativity, and Neji underestimating him to barely pull of the win. So I do not think having the Kyuubi made Naruto any less of an underdog when it comes to achieving his end goal of becoming the greatest Hokage, as there were still Ninja in his own village and off the same generation better than him, despite having Kyuubi, let alone other villages.



> Objectively speaking, he had already surpassed everyone in his class mid-way through Part I, even Sasuke, which was why Sasuke left the village in the first place.


Disagree. Naruto only won against Neji due to Neji underestimating him, play that match out again and Neji wins. According to Kishi Shikkamaru would have somehow won the exams if he didn't change the plot for Orochimaru to show up and break up the exams, and Shikkamaru was the only one promoted to Chunin. Naruto only beat Gaara because he got lucky enough that summoning Gammabunta worked that time; when his ability to do so is inconsistent, play that match out few other times and Gaara wins much more often than Naruto. Lee w/ Gates could likely also beat Naruto. Choji, Temari, Shino, and Kankuro also are debatable.

Sasuke left the village because he felt he was starting to fall behind Naruto, that is true, but Sasuke was one individual and quickly reclaimed the lead over Naruto anyway.


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## shade0180 (Jan 30, 2016)

> t Sasuke was one individual and quickly reclaimed the lead over Naruto anyway.



He really didn't.

After first Vote there is no point in the manga that sauce became stronger than Nardo if Naruto utilizes everything he had.

Early Shippuden gave Naruto access to uncontrolled KN4 with access to a portion of Bijudama
Then after that Sage Mode
Next to that KCM
then BM
BSM
Six path Sage mode
Six Path Bijuu Sage Mode
Ashura mode


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 30, 2016)

I like how some Naruto Uzumaki fans love to talk about Naruto deceiving his enemies with strategic maneuvers when most of Naruto's victories were pulled out of his ass. Even as early as Part 1. Seriously, how the fuck did he burrow underground in his with Neji back in the Chunin Exams arc? Naruto doesn't even have the Earth affinity or shown any ability to dig super fast, ever. And even _if_ he had a way to burrow, there's no way in hell he could build the momentum to knock Neji off his feet. Then there's the fact that Neji conveniently turns off his Byakugan to get one-shot by a mere uppercut. Neji had no reason to turn off his Byakugan and Naruto had no way to propel himself from the ground at such speeds. Add that with the fact that Neji spars with Lee on a regular basis, then that measly uppercut shouldn't have put him down. Besides, Neji was talking just fine on the ground. He wasn't even knocked out. What, did the punch fracture Neji's nervous system, or something?

And don't get me started on Kiba. Kiba spent his entire fight against Naruto in the preliminaries curb-stomping him and he would have beaten him if it wasn't for a fart. Yes, a fucking fart halted Kiba from finishing off Naruto. What makes the battle even worse is the fact that the fart just happened out of nowhere and he won because of that. It was some stupid convenient plot point Kishimoto pulled out of his ass. Then again, he was never good at writing strategic battles like Yoshihiro Togashi or Araki Hirohiko to begin with. 

Naruto is just the dumbest bastard I've ever seen in a shonen manga. The only time he used his intelligence was against his fight against Zabuza, like HunterxH explained. On a separate note, I've seen some fans like to give the Uchiha characters beef for their plot armor, but at least they don't turn their opponents into idiots or win in the shittiest way possible. Naruto is even worse than the Uchiha characters, he has the most insane plot armor of all characters in this series.


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## shade0180 (Jan 30, 2016)

Pretty sure a lot of people had acknowledge the PIS in Neji vs Naruto

considering Byakugan has x ray vision with a spherical view with 1 point of a blind spot. seriously he should have been able to see what is under his feet, Which is practically as bad as Hinata tripping over a small rock while her byakugan is on.





> Naruto is just the dumbest bastard I've ever seen in a shonen manga.



Then you haven't read as much shonen as most people had.

Naruto is pretty dumb, but there's literally more character lower than him.


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## Stunna (Jan 30, 2016)

Towards the end of the Sasuke Retrieval arc, although it still had a couple more arcs before it became bad.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Then you haven't read as much shonen as most people had.
> 
> Naruto is pretty dumb, but there's literally more character lower than him.



Nope, I'm still steadfast on my words. Naruto is the dumbest bastard I've seen in a shonen manga, and a disgrace on top of that. These words coming from someone who has read over hundreds of shonen manga, even the more obscure ones.


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## shade0180 (Jan 30, 2016)

> and a disgrace on top of that.



I'll agree with this with how Kishi is writing him in the movie's and the gaiden.


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## HunterxH (Jan 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Doubting the outcome, is not the same thing as betting against. When Naruto went up against Neji, I though there was a chance Naruto could loose, so there was some doubt, but I still wouldn't bet against him, because based on prior precedence the heroes usually win in those situations.



Personally, I'm a Naruto hater to a borderline irrational degree. Keyword there is borderline. So I wanted him to lose, but for me there's a difference between wanting someone to lose and "expecting" it. You saw Naruto summon Gamabunta, and how he was able to utilize the Kyuubi's chakra in order to do so. I'm just not sure how someone can see a Genin do that and then turn around and say that he was still the "underdog" of the group. 




> The manga established that Naruto didn't stand a chance against Neji ether. Naruto trained for an entire month to gain the ability to enter KN0 on command, and still that alone was not enough to beat Neji. Neji lost because he underestimated Naruto believing that because Naruto was such an underdog loser he was destined to fail, giving Naruto an opening he otherwise would not have had, allowing him barely beat Neji.



Get real, Neji lost as soon as Naruto harnessed the Kyuubi's chakra to undo what the 64 Palms did. I was young when I saw that happen and I knew that was the moment when Neji lost. He had exhausted nearly all of his chakra near the end, Naruto didn't. That's why when the match was over Neji was carried off on a stretcher meanwhile Naruto was literally running around celebrating his victory.




> Kyuubi helped Naruto in the sense that it gave him more chakra and access to more raw power. But it also hurt Naruto making his chakra harder to control (thus wasting a great deal of it and making it more difficult to learn basic skills), hurt Naruto because the more power he tried to draw from Kyuubi the more he risked loosing himself to it and hurting his friends, hurt Naruto because it placed a stigma on him that made most people in the village mistrust him and thus difficult for him to gain allies and the appreciation of the people (both of which are necessary to become Hokage, let alone the greatest Hokage Yet).



I'm not talking about how the Kyuubi "made him feel," or that it made it harder for him to learn basic jutsu, which wasn't really an issue because the reverse became true: he was able to learn much more powerful jutsu *because* of the Kyuubi. So I'm not sure how that's a bad thing. Kage Bushin and Toad Summon are only possible because of the Kyuubi's chakra within him.



> So Kyuubi helped and hurt Naruto, and even w/ the power he could draw out of it, it still wasn't enough to beat Neji, and he needed luck, creativity, and Neji underestimating him to barely pull of the win. So I do not think having the Kyuubi made Naruto any less of an underdog when it comes to achieving his end goal of becoming the greatest Hokage, as there were still Ninja in his own village and off the same generation better than him, despite having Kyuubi, let alone other villages.



I'm pretty sure Neji stopped underestimating him the moment he undid what Neji had done to him. Remember, Neji was shocked to his core when he saw the terrifying chakra that emanated from him. 

But even if he did underestimate him, that doesn't change the fact that all he has to do is summon Gamabunta and he can wipe out all of his classmates at once.




> Disagree. Naruto only won against Neji due to Neji underestimating him, play that match out again and Neji wins. According to Kishi Shikkamaru would have somehow won the exams if he didn't change the plot for Orochimaru to show up and break up the exams, and Shikkamaru was the only one promoted to Chunin. Naruto only beat Gaara because he got lucky enough that summoning Gammabunta worked that time; when his ability to do so is inconsistent, play that match out few other times and Gaara wins much more often than Naruto. Lee w/ Gates could likely also beat Naruto. Choji, Temari, Shino, and Kankuro also are debatable.
> 
> Sasuke left the village because he felt he was starting to fall behind Naruto, that is true, but Sasuke was one individual and quickly reclaimed the lead over Naruto anyway.



I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. Yes, based off of different circumstances, Naruto could win or lose against practically anyone - but that's not exclusive to him.

What I'm saying is, if Naruto wanted to, he could literally summon Gamabunta and wipe all of his classmates out. But this is someone you're trying to convince me is the "underdog?" Someone who can summon the same Toad Boss that one of the Legendary Sannin, Jiraiya can summon at the age of 13?


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## shade0180 (Jan 30, 2016)

Hxh has a point.

Gamabunta  is going to demolished everyone.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> Personally, I'm a Naruto hater to a borderline irrational degree. Keyword there is borderline. So I wanted him to lose, but for me there's a difference between wanting someone to lose and "expecting" it. You saw Naruto summon Gamabunta, and how he was able to utilize the Kyuubi's chakra in order to do so. I'm just not sure how someone can see a Genin do that and then turn around and say that he was still the "underdog" of the group.


Because he couldn't do so consistently. If he could do it consistently then I'd agree, but that was not the case.



> Get real, Neji lost as soon as Naruto harnessed the Kyuubi's chakra to undo what the 64 Palms did. I was young when I saw that happen and I knew that was the moment when Neji lost. He had exhausted nearly all of his chakra near the end, Naruto didn't. That's why when the match was over Neji was carried off on a stretcher meanwhile Naruto was literally running around celebrating his victory.


Your arguing against Canon than, as Neji blatantly repelled KN0, dealing Naruto more damage than he dealt him, and than lost because of Naruto's maneuver. 



> I'm not talking about how the Kyuubi "made him feel," or that it made it harder for him to learn basic jutsu, which wasn't really an issue because the reverse became true: he was able to learn much more powerful jutsu because of the Kyuubi. So I'm not sure how that's a bad thing. Kage Bushin and Toad Summon are only possible because of the Kyuubi's chakra within him.


Like I said Kyuubi aided him in some ways and hurt him in others. It's chakra allowed him to learn stamina draining techniques his peers could not, but it messing up his control prevented him from learning others stuff. At the end of the day Naruto's Part I arsenal was not leagues above the other top Konoha Rookies though, in-fact some rookies I think arguably had better techniques than Naruto did.



> I'm pretty sure Neji stopped underestimating him the moment he undid what Neji had done to him. Remember, Neji was shocked to his core when he saw the terrifying chakra that emanated from him.
> 
> But even if he did underestimate him, that doesn't change the fact that all he has to do is summon Gamabunta and he can wipe out all of his classmates at once.


I don't have time to post scans, but i'm fairly certain Neji underestimating Naruto was the reason he deactivated Byakugan at the end of the match allowing Naruto's tunnel strategy to work. 

And again he could not summon Bunta consistently. So sure he'd win 1 out of every 100 matches that he actually managed to luck into summoning Bunta, but otherwise he looses. There's a reason why Naruto doesn't even bother to try to summon Bunta in most of his matches in Part I, it's because summoning Bunta is a desperation ploy w/ a low likelihood of success.


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## HunterxH (Jan 30, 2016)

I know that he can't summon Gamabunta consistently, but that's not the point. The point is, that Naruto could, on a whim, summon him and wipe out all of his peers. 

In-Universe, he was still considered an underdog until his battle against Pein because none of his peers knew what he was capable of. 

But the readers did know, and after Naruto learned Rasengan, he became the most powerful person from his graduating class by a mile. If Naruto's Rasengan had collided with Sasuke's Chidori on the rooftop, then Sasuke could have died. Yes, to that point, Naruto had became so powerful that he could have killed Sasuke by *accident*.

Anyways, the point I'm trying to make here is that the series didn't even know what it wanted to be from the beginning, that's because Kishi didn't even know himself. That's why so many things don't make sense to so many readers. Like Naruto being considered an underdog, "hard work beats talent" even though Neji had to work hard to learn jutsu that only members of the Main Branch had access to, etc, etc.

I could go on forever about how lackluster this show ended up becoming, and how I became more and more disappointed with it as time went on. I truly wish that somewhere down the road, someone could make a ninja anime that can sell it's own hype, or if Kishi could sell the IP to someone else who could then retcon everything. Because as it stands, Naruto introduced a lot of interesting concepts, but that's it. That's what Kishi is good at, concepts not content.


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## Milliardo (Jan 30, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The manga established that Naruto didn't stand a chance against Neji ether. Naruto trained for an entire month to gain the ability to enter KN0 on command, and still that alone was not enough to beat Neji. Neji lost because he underestimated Naruto believing that because Naruto was such an underdog loser he was destined to fail, giving Naruto an opening he otherwise would not have had, allowing him barely beat Neji.


most of the characters didn't know what naruto was capable of though. nor did they know he was trained by a legendary sanin.(in part one) they didn't know he could make thousands of clones. they didn't know he could summon gamabuta one of the legendary toads. they didn't know he could utilize kyuubi chakra as his own. hell, naruto could make hordes of clones with kyuubi power like he did with kimimaro.

saying the manga views him as weak or the underdog with lack of knowledge from most characters isn't a fair argument. in a competition there is always going to be an "underdog" but that doesn't always mean that they are weak or definitely going to lose. what matters is the distance measured between the underdog and the favorite.   

with all the power and abilities naruto had he sure as hell had a chance of winning that fight. 




> Kyuubi helped Naruto in the sense that it gave him more chakra and access to more raw power. But it also hurt Naruto making his chakra harder to control (thus wasting a great deal of it and making it more difficult to learn basic skills), hurt Naruto because the more power he tried to draw from Kyuubi the more he risked loosing himself to it and hurting his friends, hurt Naruto because it placed a stigma on him that made most people in the village mistrust him and thus difficult for him to gain allies and the appreciation of the people (both of which are necessary to become Hokage, let alone the greatest Hokage Yet).


 heres my thoughts on each of those points bro. 

naruto had vast amounts of chakra to waste so i don't see that as a huge weakness or one at all really. when you have an ocean of chakra whats the worry?

the chakra or lack of control never stopped naruto from learning powerful jutsu especially since he learned most justu in like a month or less. 

in part one most of naruto's fights were one on one and i don't believe he ever really lost himself in part one to where he would harm his own teamates. correct me if im wrong here. it only happened a few times anyway. this has no affect on his status as a fighter though.

as for the hokage bit. naruto was son of the 4th hokage, trained by the copy ninja kakashi, and trained by the legendary sanin jiraiya so i think the fire leader would love him lol like he did kakashi. the hokage system was a joke anyways. as for the people all naruto would have to do is save the village and they would love him. this happened with pain and sure enough kyuubi greatly helped manga canon. 

im not seeing much of a hindrance.





> So Kyuubi helped and hurt Naruto, and even w/ the power he could draw out of it, it still wasn't enough to beat Neji, and he needed luck, creativity, and Neji underestimating him to barely pull of the win. So I do not think having the Kyuubi made Naruto any less of an underdog when it comes to achieving his end goal of becoming the greatest Hokage, as there were still Ninja in his own village and off the same generation better than him, despite having Kyuubi, let alone other villages.


it greatly helped naruto and didn't hurt naruto nearly enough. 

naruto could have beat neji a number of ways tbh. the author had to limit him. you would be hard pressed to say naruto had low chances of winning with all the power and abilities he had. especially since naruto beat an even more powerful opponent in gaara right after beating neji. like basically back to back from what i remember. he took a little nap but it wasn't long. im sorry but its like you don't even consider naruto's advantages at all. you seem to just go off the manga's interpretation.    

i don't even understand your hokage argument. the manga is about fighting more than anything else. all we see is naruto training to get stronger and saving his friends. we were never going to see naruto learn how to be hokage that was a given. its not like he trains under someone and gets leadership skills or even leads a team of his own as learns how to organize and train them. it just magically happens because it wasn't truthfully the focus of the manga just end goal. 




> Disagree. Naruto only won against Neji due to Neji underestimating him, play that match out again and Neji wins.


what if naruto uses more kyuubi power? what if naruto makes thousands of clones or thousands of them with kyuubi power? i don't see neji winning then. 




> Naruto only beat Gaara because he got lucky enough that summoning Gammabunta worked that time; when his ability to do so is inconsistent, play that match out few other times and Gaara wins much more often than Naruto. Lee w/ Gates could likely also beat Naruto. Choji, Temari, Shino, and Kankuro also are debatable.


or he could have used more fox power. he didn't even enter the tails form in that fight.

luck or not theres always a chance naruto could summon gamabuta so i don't understand your point there. again whats most important is how much of an underdog naruto is. besides gaara was a high end opponent. what would kakashi do to gaara if he went full biju? in part one i don't see him doing shit. 

lee in gates has a limited time and naruto could fool him pretty easy with a thousand clones. 

as for the rest of the opponents you named none of them stand a chance against one tail naruto or more. i have a hard time seeing kakashi do it in part one tbh and hes a jonin and 14 years older.


i don't get your tenten argument either unless the characters has super abilities to back them then its either going to be an asspull win or someone else gets involved. im talking straight up in a fight if we were to think about a character's abilities and power and judge within a fight then naruto was pretty damn good in part one. tenten on the otherhand only uses weapons and thats it.. how would she beat gaara given the chance? talk about an underdog now thats an underdog lol.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 30, 2016)

> And don't get me started on Kiba. Kiba spent his entire fight against Naruto in the preliminaries curb-stomping him and he would have beaten him if it wasn't for a fart. Yes, a fucking fart halted Kiba from finishing off Naruto. What makes the battle even worse is the fact that the fart just happened out of nowhere and he won because of that. It was some stupid convenient plot point Kishimoto pulled out of his ass. Then again, he was never good at writing strategic battles like Yoshihiro Togashi or Araki Hirohiko to begin with.


lol this is some bullshit 

if anyone wants to, they can go reread the fight

naruto took a shitload of punishment from kiba's twin tornado thing but he just wasn't going down. his durability was more than high enough to withstand it. the idea that kiba would have finished him off even if kiba's single tornado had landed is wishful thinking at best given that naruto got back up from double the same attack and proceeded to trick kiba twice with henge and then beat on him


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## Raiden (Jan 30, 2016)

That was a actually a good fight. Aside from the fart, there was a narrative with the back and forth .


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## Milliardo (Jan 30, 2016)

Arthas said:


> Problem with defining an underdog status to Naruto is whether he is talented or not, he always had the Kyuubi.
> 
> That's like saying a person might or might not have no talent as a sniper but he has a rifle that shoots nuclear bombs.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much how I view it. Kyuubi helped naruto in like almost every fight in Part one so why pretend like he isn't a factor or not much at all?

The kiba fight is probably the only fight where you could truthfully second guess naruto because of lack of kyuubi but naruto himself still had a shit ton of chakra and could again make thousands of clones.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 30, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> I'll agree with this with how Kishi is writing him in the movie's and the gaiden.



Yup, it's pretty ironic to see what Naruto has become in the end. Back in Part 1, he didn't turn the conversation about himself when he lectured Zabuza, and in Part 1, he still had enough self-awareness to admit he's jealous of Sasuke. He explicitly stated in the Land of Waves arc that he didn't like the shinobi system, and he didn't want to grow into the kind of adult Zabuza is, which is a tool with no human feelings. He was written with more sincerity and passion back then.

Now? He became the very thing he swore to never become, in which he became a douchebag who keeps telling his son to suck up his feelings and endure for the village, because that's what shinobi do. He also became another asshole Hokage in the office like Tobirama and Hiruzen who serves the village system at the expense of the peasants and his own humanity. Naruto is acting just like Hiruzen did back in his reign. He didn't change jack with the village system because reforms wouldn't benefit the system or him. Reforms would reveal the shinobi system as abusive, undermine the peasants loyalty to system, and weakened the system's control over its subjects. 

Besides the fact that Naruto failed to change the shinobi system, Naruto is not even a decent person. He lacks integrity, he failed to judge Orochimaru and his experimentations on babies as shown in Gaiden. I've been seeing some fans say he is compassionate, I don't think he is. He's the complete opposite. Evil doesn't bother Naruto at all, he's cool with Orochimaru and his human experiments as long as Orochimaru doesn't pull anything that affects _him_ personally, like kidnapping Sasuke or attacking his homeland. He's apathetic to other people's plight if they don't affect him. As soon as he saw Obito's former dream was to become Hokage, he thought he was the coolest dude to grace on the face of Earth, nevermind the fact that he killed Neji and half of the Shinobi Alliance in cold blood. When Naruto judges a person, he prioritizes whatever aspect he relates to said person above all else, even basic morals. To be honest, I feel like he has some sort of personality disorder. He's a disgrace of a shonen protagonist.

On a separate note, I love how sanctimonious Naruto has become in the Gaiden spin-off and Boruto movie. He doesn't like being called dad by Boruto, and demands his son and everyone across the village to refer to him as, "Lord Hokage." This is the same guy who called Tsunade, "Old Hag" and, "Granny." Why does this dumb hypocrite even exist in the first place? He's just some shallow idiot who demands praise whilst going on a power trip, fantasizing himself as the leader of the free world.


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## Punished Kiba (Jan 30, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> lol this is some bullshit
> 
> if anyone wants to, they can go reread the fight
> 
> naruto took a shitload of punishment from kiba's twin tornado thing but he just wasn't going down. his durability was more than high enough to withstand it. the idea that kiba would have finished him off even if kiba's single tornado had landed is wishful thinking at best given that naruto got back up from double the same attack and proceeded to trick kiba twice with henge and then beat on him



We knew that Kiba was gonna lose against the "special" MC....but the way the fight was written was that Kiba dominated Naruto in both Speed and Strength (even if Naruto was very durable (cos his special) and even with the few tricks Naruto did), Kiba was still overwhelmingly faster than him. Then, in came a randomly convenient fart to disorientate Kiba during the match leading to his defeat. Naruto won through the luck of his own MC privilege.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 30, 2016)

KingForever7 said:


> We knew that Kiba was gonna lose against the "special" MC....but the way the fight was written was that Kiba dominated Naruto in both Speed and Strength (even if Naruto was very durable (cos his special) and even with the few tricks Naruto did), Kiba was still overwhelmingly faster than him. Then, in came a randomly convenient fart to disorientate Kiba during the match leading to his defeat. Naruto won through the luck of his own MC privilege.


>self-inserting with kiba this much


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## Punished Kiba (Jan 30, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> >self-inserting with kiba this much



Self-Inserting ?? Haha

Oh Dear, you don't know me at all 


As much as I would love to self-insert myself as him, Kiba and I are practically opposites in personality.


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## C-Moon (Jan 30, 2016)

It's like he can't talk about anything else


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## Skaddix (Jan 30, 2016)

Eh as far as strategy in this manga Kiba v Naruto was one of the better ones....


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 30, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm just saying that Naruto didn't look all that bad before he stood opposite to Deidara and Sasori with Gaara dead at their feet. Hell, he didn't even look bad against Deidara before Naruto went two-tailed. But throughout the Kazekage Rescue arc, Naruto is fighting copies of villains. And those were all short fights as well. In other words, it's all ultimately pointless.

I suspect that partway through the Kazekage Rescue arc, Kishimoto had a change of heart. Especially when one considers that the Sasuke and Sai arc wasn't part of his original plan. The Kazekage Rescue arc ends up being all about Kakashi's new doujutsu and Sakura's new abilities---while Naruto is hardly more relevant than team Might Guy.

I mean, the manga explicitly mentions that Naruto doesn't have a long range attack. Like hell he does! Use Food Cart Destroyer on Deidara! And if that doesn't work, those toads sure have long range attacks. But apparently, Naruto did not learn any summoning variants.

Nor did he learn the memory trick of the kage bunshin and he effectively lost control over his Kyuubi power (as you mentioned). Instead, Naruto has new versions of Oiroke and Rasengan. The worst part is that summoning is the safest way for Naruto to use the Kyuubi's chakra! So how relevant is the time-skip when Kishimoto goes out of his way to make explicit that Naruto has less jutsu available to him then he had in Part 1?




mr_shadow said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Kishimoto has a habit of building up an arc---only to abandon it when he has to write the climax of an arc.




Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




One-on-one, team-versus-team, or one person against a team. I like them all provided they're well written. And a combination of chunin and jonin ganging up against an S-rank missing nin is something I don't mind at all. Different tastes, I guess.

Sasori allowing himself to get killed is the only questionable thing about that fight. The rest is a matter of taste.

The strongest kazekage was defeated and turned into a puppet. There's absolutely no indication that this puppet was as strong as the 3rd kazekage. In fact, it needed chakra from Sasori so it can only be as strong as the puppeteer. (Something similar was mentioned for Edo Tensei during the war arc.)

I can't take complaints about preparations, prior knowledge, geographic advantage, running out of munition, first attack advantage, help from other characters, and similar stuff...serious. Especially when you start calling it absurd advantages. You don't like to read about such fights? Fair enough. We all have different tastes.




Turrin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see why there was not time. Akatsuki and Orochimaru had underlings that the heroes could have fought against, and there could have been gaps in time where Akatsuki was concerned w/ other Bijuu, for the heroes to say undertake Jonin or Anbu Exams or retake the Chunin Exams. There was plenty of time, Kishi just didn't want to take. Probably because Kishimoto thought up the idea of God Tier Characters like Madara around the end of PI, and was like if I don't rush this shit, then it will take decades for Naruto and company to realistically reach Madara's level, but than he shouldn't have made the power scale go that high.




Kishimoto should have just stuck to the idea of "one biju equals one arc." And if Kishimoto was planning on making each biju more powerful than the previous one, that would also have influenced the strength of the Akatsuki members going after a particular biju. Orochimaru and Sasuke could have replaced a few of these biju arcs.

Instead, we have the Kazekage Rescue arc which is over two thirds of a year (37 chapters); the Sasuke and Sai arc which is over half a year (29 chapters); the Hidan and Kakuzu arc which is over three fifth of a year (32 chapters); the Itachi Pursuit arc which is just under half a year (25 chapters); Jiraiya gaiden that lasts 4 months (16 chapters); the Fated battle between brothers which is over half a year (29 chapters); and Pain's Assault which is almost four fifth of a year (41 chapters). Seriously, not a single one of these arcs is even close to a year. Unless you take the Itachi Pursuit and Fated Battle arcs together: 25 + 29 = 54 chapters. Seriously, he was rushing through his plot!




Aduro said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




True to some extent. Although it doesn't help that Kishimoto often rushes through his story.

But the Five Kage summit arc has a very different problem. The manga makes it seem that Kumo was out for revenge and therefore wrong. Which ignores how Sasuke was the one who attacked Kumo. Naruto was playing favourites in that situation and using the problems of the ninja world to reach the conclusion he desired: Sasuke not dead. Both Kumo and Sakura were right in that arc!

If we apply Naruto's reasoning to the Land of Waves arc, the manga is basically arguing that Tazuna was wrong to hire Konoha ninja as that would continue the cycle of hatred. Which is just 




Arthas said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The fact you have to resort to a rifle that shoots nuclear weapons means you've lost the fight as a sniper. It's that simple.


Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power against Haku = Naruto lost that fight on his own merit
Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power against Orochimaru = about surviving against someone no active-duty Konoha ninja can defeat
Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power against Neji = neutralising the Hyuuga's kekkei genkai based abilities
Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power against Gaara = neutralising the advantage a Biju brings to a fight
Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power against Sasuke's cursed seal = neutralising all the special powers Sasuke has (Sharingan and Cursed Seal)
Part 2 is different because Naruto uses the Kyuubi's power continuously. Hell, he defeats Kakuzu with the Kyuubi's power after he's just vowed not to use it again because Sakura got hurt. 

(Read my post above about the disconnect between in-universe and the readers. I think that's the point in Part 1. Unfortunately, Kishimoto decided to double down on the idea that Naruto is untalented in Part 2 to the extent that he even makes Asura as untalented as possible. )




Lucaniel said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Agreed.




Milliardo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Why pretend that Naruto isn't using the Kyuubi in a specific context? (See above.)


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 30, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Eh as far as strategy in this manga Kiba v Naruto was one of the better ones....



Because maneuvering your enemies by farting on their nose, _sure_ as hell is _"strategic"_, right? *Sarcasm*

The battles were pretty bad in Part 1, nostalgia aside. The only fights that made up were battles like, Kakashi Vs Zabuza, Hiruzen Vs Orochimaru, Lee Vs Gaara and Lee & Gaara Vs Kimimaro. As far as strategies goes in this manga, they ranged between bad and mediocre, Kishimoto was never really good at writing strategic battles with intrigues in the same sense as Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Katanagatari or Gash Bell.


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## Skaddix (Jan 30, 2016)

Cant argue with that even his brother does it Better.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2016)

HunterxH said:


> I know that he can't summon Gamabunta consistently, but that's not the point. The point is, that Naruto could, on a whim, summon him and wipe out all of his peers.


But he couldn't summon Bunta on a whim. So unfortunately that's where your argument falls short.



> In-Universe, he was still considered an underdog until his battle against Pein because none of his peers knew what he was capable of.
> 
> But the readers did know, and after Naruto learned Rasengan, he became the most powerful person from his graduating class by a mile. If Naruto's Rasengan had collided with Sasuke's Chidori on the rooftop, then Sasuke could have died. Yes, to that point, Naruto had became so powerful that he could have killed Sasuke by accident.


I think Sasuke at that point was not longer one of the strongest Rookies, because he'd been a hospital bed, while the other rookies were advancing in skill. Pretty sure even Rescue Sasuke arc Kiba would have a good shot of beating Sasuke at that point. 

And as I've already said I don't agree that Naruto was miles ahead of his peers, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.



> Anyways, the point I'm trying to make here is that the series didn't even know what it wanted to be from the beginning, that's because Kishi didn't even know himself. That's why so many things don't make sense to so many readers. Like Naruto being considered an underdog, "hard work beats talent" even though Neji had to work hard to learn jutsu that only members of the Main Branch had access to, etc, etc.
> 
> I could go on forever about how lackluster this show ended up becoming, and how I became more and more disappointed with it as time went on. I truly wish that somewhere down the road, someone could make a ninja anime that can sell it's own hype, or if Kishi could sell the IP to someone else who could then retcon everything. Because as it stands, Naruto introduced a lot of interesting concepts, but that's it. *That's what Kishi is good at, concepts not content.*


I agree with the bold, however I do think Part I was a good and made sense; even early Part II is alrighty. It's about the time of the immortals arc, that shits gets really fucked up.

@Milliardo

Your giving Naruto powers he didn't have at that time. He couldn't enter KN1 back then, he couldn't create KB that all had the same strength as KN0, and so on. So sure maybe your fanfic Naruto isn't an underdog, but that doesn't hold hardly any relevance to the reality of the manga. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if your argument amounts to well Naruto could do X, which he actually could not, I don't see much validity behind your words.



NarutoShion4ever said:


> One-on-one, team-versus-team, or one person against a team. I like them all provided they're well written. And a combination of chunin and jonin ganging up against an S-rank missing nin is something I don't mind at all. Different tastes, I guess.
> 
> Sasori allowing himself to get killed is the only questionable thing about that fight. The rest is a matter of taste.
> 
> ...


Everything is subjective. Some people think Twilight is a master piece, so to me that argument is pointless. As far as i'm concerned the heroes gaining countless advantages to win, hurts the quality of the manga and entertainment of fights, if you think differently that's fine, but it doesn't really counter my point or change my opinion.



> Kishimoto should have just stuck to the idea of "one biju equals one arc." And if Kishimoto was planning on making each biju more powerful than the previous one, that would also have influenced the strength of the Akatsuki members going after a particular biju. Orochimaru and Sasuke could have replaced a few of these biju arcs.
> 
> Instead, we have the Kazekage Rescue arc which is over two thirds of a year (37 chapters); the Sasuke and Sai arc which is over half a year (29 chapters); the Hidan and Kakuzu arc which is over three fifth of a year (32 chapters); the Itachi Pursuit arc which is just under half a year (25 chapters); Jiraiya gaiden that lasts 4 months (16 chapters); the Fated battle between brothers which is over half a year (29 chapters); and Pain's Assault which is almost four fifth of a year (41 chapters). Seriously, not a single one of these arcs is even close to a year. Unless you take the Itachi Pursuit and Fated Battle arcs together: 25 + 29 = 54 chapters. Seriously, he was rushing through his plot!


I think 1 Bijuu per arc would have gotten repetitive fast, but I certainly think we could have had a few more arcs about individually Jinchuuriki and Bijuu, just maybe not for every Bijuu.


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## Milliardo (Jan 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> @Milliardo
> 
> Your giving Naruto powers he didn't have at that time. He couldn't enter KN1 back then, he couldn't create KB that all had the same strength as KN0, and so on. So sure maybe your fanfic Naruto isn't an underdog, but that doesn't hold hardly any relevance to the reality of the manga. I'm not trying to be a dick here, but if your argument amounts to well Naruto could do X, which he actually could not, I don't see much validity behind your words.



Turrin, you can be whatever you want with me I can take it bro. 

Secondly, my argument was more than naruto has x ability. I didn't give him shit. Naruto was shown multiple times creating a fuck ton of clones against haku, mizuki, Gaara, and so on. Do you remember his fight with kimimaro? Naruto surrounded him with kyuubi clones. Are you saying he couldn't do this with Neji and if so what's your reasoning? Naruto didn't train for that he did it on the spot.

The kyuubi power manifest the more emotional naruto got. It's not like he developed it or some shit its similar to Sasuke and sharingan. The tails form could have happened at anytime depending how much naruto was invested in the fight. You acting like it couldn't happen early is strange to say the least. Jiraiya taught naruto how to bring it out that was it. 


I think where we truly differ is on the definition of underdog. You seem to think because Naruto has chance of losing in a fight that he is some great underdog or you greatly underestimate him. As I told you there is always an "underdog " and a "favorite" but that doesn't mean that every match up is always a David vs Goliath type. 

None of Naruto's peers could beat him at the end of Part one. Hell, Naruto could have defeated Sasuke if he was actually trying at first vote. None of the characters you mentioned could beat naruto. Sasuke couldn't even defeat half the opponents naruto could. 

Sasuke was technically more of an underdog at the time because he had very little chakra and chidori that's it. His sharingan was shit until vote. Even then he had to get curse mark power to even hang with Naruto because sharingan doesn?t give Sasuke a bunch of chakra, heal regeneration, super speed , and super strength. I remember when Naruto stopped orochimaru's snake summoning with his kyuubi strength protecting sasuke in the forest of death. 

I don?t understand your problem with manga if you always viewed naruto as the underdog up to pain. Technically by your standards naruto was underdog in the war because obito, madara, and Kaguya had more power than him. So what exactly are you complaining about? Like many have said you can't remain the underdog forever. Please do enlighten me if you have the time.


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## Mikon (Jan 31, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Because maneuvering your enemies by farting on their nose, _sure_ as hell is _"strategic"_, right? *Sarcasm*
> 
> The battles were pretty bad in Part 1, nostalgia aside. The only fights that made up were battles like, Kakashi Vs Zabuza, Hiruzen Vs Orochimaru, Lee Vs Gaara and Lee & Gaara Vs Kimimaro. As far as strategies goes in this manga, they ranged between bad and mediocre, Kishimoto was never really good at writing strategic battles with intrigues in the same sense as Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter x Hunter, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Katanagatari or Gash Bell.



I dropped Jojo in the first 10 episodes, so i'il talk just about HXH and FMAB.
What's so strategic about them? Honestly, i just can't remember anything that stood out or anything.
Can you name some of the strategic battles? Also, Sasuke vs Deidara and Shikamaru vs Hidan were both good. Even Jiraiyia/Naruto vs Pain had some nice moments in that regard.


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## Skaddix (Jan 31, 2016)

Really FMA had a lot of strategy. It got used pretty much every fight against a Deadly Sin.


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## Mikon (Jan 31, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Really FMA had a lot of strategy. It got used pretty much every fight against a Deadly Sin.



So you are telling me that Roy Mustang vs Lust/Envy had some good strategy? 
I can only think of the last battle with Bradley (With Greed and everyone) as one of the strategic battles, or the one vs Pride. But again, i can't see anything special about these fights when you compare them to the fights that i mentioned. Maybe my memory is just bad, but care to explain?
In HxH i can just remember some of the little fights that took place in the Hunter Exams, or Gon and the bomber (forgot his name) from Greed Island, but they are ordinary, really.


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## db84x (Jan 31, 2016)

I think it start from Pain Invasion arc.


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## Deleted member 73050 (Jan 31, 2016)

When Kakuzu died.


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## Uraharа (Jan 31, 2016)

From the war arc. The beginning was shit. Then it was good from the moment Naruto stepped in until Obito got unmasked. After that it became boring and stretched and the last  20 chapters were eye cancer giving.

Still I wouldn't go as far as saying that the War arc was utter shit. Too many exciting and good stuff have happened for that. It's just that Kishi can do much better and that final arc can't be listed in the top 5 best arcs of this series.

The fact that Kishi was forced by the editors to put as much content weekly as possible, also didn't help that some parts felt like filler. Especially towards the end.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Jan 31, 2016)

The War arc was utter shit. Actually, generally speaking, war arcs in battle shonen manga are generally not a very good idea, and should be avoided at all cost. A war is made up of tactical maneuvering on the battlefield, and battle of wits in the spheres of politics, diplomacy, economics and manipulation of public opinions, etc. These things are difficult to write, Kishimoto can't even write basic logic, he had no business writing a war. All he's good at is writing cheap juvenile issues like loneliness and pain. 

Second, by the time Kishimoto started the war arc, Naruto was already too overpowered. He could maintain over thousands of clones, he's a one-man army, the powerlevel has gone beyond the point where average soldiers could still act as a major player. Unlike in real wars where you need foot soldiers to take and hold territories for the grand strategy to work, they only had to defeat Obito and Madara. An army was just an unnecessary burden in the battlefield where they could be wiped out by a meteor and vaporized by a Tailed Beast Bomb.

Third, like I said earlier, a war involves key players in the military, in politics, and these characters and their objectives have to be established _before_ the War arc. Kishimoto just pulled a war out of his ass without planning and laying down the foundations and context for it.

Fourth, Kishimoto already ran out of villains by the time he wrote the War arc. The Akatsuki was no more, he didn't have nearly enough antagonists for an arc of major conflict to take place. 

Firth, everything in the War arc was recycled. Since Kishimoto lacked villains and was too lazy to create new ones, he conveniently recycled the dead and old ones by resurrecting the Akatsuki, and upgrading a minor villain like Kabuto to the role of a major villain. Even the power was recycled, the same pair of Rinnegan had been passed over to 3 villains already. The antagonists side lacked an army, so Kishimoto substituted them with Zetsu. Everything was old stuff cobbled together at the last minute.

Sixth, the pacing was terrible. There're like fifty chapters where the plot didn't move at all. They're just repetitive pick-up moments with corny motivational speeches, recycled flashbacks, or some artificial "danger" where Naruto had to save the fodder ninjas, share his chakra with them, and they'd be followed by one of the Konoha 11 wanking Naruto as the Messiah. I've been seeing people give Attack on Titan beef for having unlikeable characters, I don't think they are unlikeable. Even the fodder soldiers in Attack on Titan are more likeable in comparison to the likes of Naruto. I hate the fodder ninjas in the War arc. In Attack on Titan, when the Titans broke the wall, there's this fodder soldier who is scared shitless to the point where he's like, "It's pointless to resist... I'm going home to spend whatever time I got left with my family", then he came to the realization that he's being fucking pathetic, and decided to fight because he didn't want his daughter to continue living in fear. Now that's a fodder you can actually respect, he fights for a better future for his loved ones. In comparison, the fodder ninjas are like, "Naruto, we can't breath without you, we fight for you", yuck.

Lastly, the biggest problem in the War arc was all the characters were brought to the same battlefield, but were given nothing to do. Orochimaru was brought back for no reason. Fodders army were completely useless, they're only good at playing damsels in distress for Naruto. There're thirty chapters where Madara was sitting on his ass doing nothing because Obito was snatching the Rinnegan and Tailed Beasts.


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2016)

Milliardo said:


> Secondly, my argument was more than naruto has x ability. I didn't give him shit. Naruto was shown multiple times creating a fuck ton of clones against haku, mizuki, Gaara, and so on. Do you remember his fight with kimimaro? Naruto surrounded him with kyuubi clones. Are you saying he couldn't do this with Neji and if so what's your reasoning? Naruto didn't train for that he did it on the spot.
> The kyuubi power manifest the more emotional naruto got. It's not like he developed it or some shit its similar to Sasuke and sharingan. The tails form could have happened at anytime depending how much naruto was invested in the fight. You acting like it couldn't happen early is strange to say the least. Jiraiya taught naruto how to bring it out that was it.


I'm not calling Bullshit, on Naruto being able to use a-lot of clones, he in-fact did so against Neji, though Neji easily handled them. What I'm calling BS on is 1K-KN0 Clones and KN1, two feats Naruto didn't demonstrated until 2 Arcs later, one which was primarily focused on Naruto training his ass. Naruto specifically was indicated to have problems controlling Kyuubi chakra, so what proof do you have that  prior to undergoing the Rasengan training (which was primarily focused on chakra control), that Naruto could control KN0's volume of chakra well enough to use TKB w/ it. Like wise Naruto's body could barely handle KN1 for a brief period of time in the SRA arc, so what proof do you have that Naruto's body prior to pushing himself to his physical limits over and over again during the Rasengan training arc could handle KN1 in the Chunin Exams? For that matter Naruto also grew statistically as a Ninj between those two arcs, something we can easily chart through Naruto's stat progression in DBI and DBII, with both his skill in Ninjutsu and bodily strength increasing in 2 Tiers respectively during that time period; so again w/o those advancements, where is the proof Naruto could use this stuff.

And the burden of proof isn't on me, as all I need to do is point towards the actual Neji vs Naruto battle as an illustration of the author's intent for how strong Naruto was suppose to be and the fact that he wasn't pulling out SRA type moves against Neji like 1K KN0 Clones or KN1, makes it clear that Kishimoto didn't intend for Naruto to be that strong during the Chunin Exams. If you want to call Bullshit on the way the Neji and Naruto match went down and say Naruto wasn't the underdog because of it, than it's absolutely on you to prove w/o a shadow of a doubt that Naurto was capable of using these moves in the Chunin Exams



> I think where we truly differ is on the definition of underdog. You seem to think because Naruto has chance of losing in a fight that he is some great underdog or you greatly underestimate him. As I told you there is always an "underdog " and a "favorite" but that doesn't mean that every match up is always a David vs Goliath type.
> 
> None of Naruto's peers could beat him at the end of Part one. Hell, Naruto could have defeated Sasuke if he was actually trying at first vote. None of the characters you mentioned could beat naruto. Sasuke couldn't even defeat half the opponents naruto could.


Naruto was an underdog relative to what he wanted to achieve. He wanted to become the greatest Hokage ever, which is synonymous with him basically wanting to become the greatest Ninja ever. In-order to be on the track to accomplish something like you'd want to be head and shoulders above everyone else in your generation that could potentially take that spot from you (in some way, genius, power, etc...); I.E. someone like an Itachi who was head and shoulders above his peers. Naruto was the exact opposite of that he was tragically far behind all of his peers. Naruto had to train his ass off to get to the point were he stood a chance of being the best among his peers, but even than he couldn't quite grasp hold of that, loosing out to Sasuke at VOTE. And that was only comparing him Ninja of his generation we had seen so far, there very well could have been Ninja of the same generation in other villages even more powerful than the top Konoha Rookies, that Naruto would also need to surpass, if he was to become the greatest Ninja, just like he had to contend w/ Gaara from Sungakuru.

As far as Naruto's power goes, I think it's the reverse and that your overestimating Naruto and than complaining because you overinflated version of Naruto isn't performing to your standards. When we should be going off what the Manga portrayed. The manga portrayed Naruto barely winning out against Neji in the Chunin Exams due to Neji underestimating him and barely winning out against Gaara, because he got lucky that he managed to summon Bunta correctly, which is in essence a crap shoot. That places Naruto at best around Neji's level in the Chunin Exams Finals (if not slightly bellow) and almost always bellow Gaara. Kishimoto has also gone on record say Shikkamaru would have won if he finished the exams, so that also places him beneath Shikkamaru. Than in the rescue Sasuke arc, Gaara drastically out performed him against Kimi, even when he was using KN0, and while you can say he got KN1 after that, he could only use KN1 for an extremely brief period of time, and it's not like we haven't seen brief super powers like that among the top rookies like Lee and Choji, so I do not think it puts Naruto way ahead of any of the rookies. And than ultimately Naruto got beaten by Sasuke again.



> I don’t understand your problem with manga if you always viewed naruto as the underdog up to pain. Technically by your standards naruto was underdog in the war because obito, madara, and Kaguya had more power than him. So what exactly are you complaining about? Like many have said you can't remain the underdog forever. Please do enlighten me if you have the time


I viewed Naruto as an underdog up until the Wind-Arc. The reason being that before the Wind-Arc Kishimoto tried to balance the benefits of Kurama's power w/ it's negatives. In Part I Kyuubi-Chakra helped Naruto bridge the gap between himself and the other rookies (alongside massive hard work), but having Kurama sealed inside him was also what caused Naruto to fall so far behind originally, as it made his chakra much tougher to control making it much more difficult for Naruto to master basic skills and left him a stigmatized orphan who didn't have family and friend to help him improve. And using higher forms than KN0 carried a heavy risk both to his physical body or mental state, to the point where the manga suggested heavily that they were not even representative of Naruto's power in the Penis Arc.

However when we come to the wind-arc Kurama allowing Naruto to train the equivalent of 1,000 days in a week, kind of skews that balance, making Kurama was more beneficial than destructive. On top of that the Wind-Arc is also when we really start to see Naruto push way ahead of anyone of his peers that isn't named Sasuke, leaving them all pretty much in the dust (which I do not believe was the case before then). So at the point where Naruto has his own hyperbolic time chamber that allows him to train so quick he vastly surpasses the rest of his peers in a matter of weeks, much of his underdog persona falls away.  This becomes even worse in the Pain Arc, when Naruto becomes the Destined Child and is able to master SM at light speed, cause reasons; and turns to absolute garbage in the War Arc when Kurama becomes a Tsundere Pokemon at Naruto's beck an call, and Gods like Hagoromo just hand out power ups because Naruto was an Ashura incarnation.


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## Divinstrosity (Jan 31, 2016)

TRN said:


> Start of Part 2
> 
> Anyone say anything else is wrong



To this day, I can't help but wonder how did Kishimoto's writing drop off that much between the ending of part 1, the beginning of part 2. Very noticeable drop-off. 

I guess maybe its easier to set-up plotlines than it is to execute them. At least for Kishimoto, anyway.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Everything is subjective. Some people think Twilight is a master piece, so to me that argument is pointless. As far as i'm concerned the heroes gaining countless advantages to win, hurts the quality of the manga and entertainment of fights, if you think differently that's fine, but it doesn't really counter my point or change my opinion.




Not everything is subjective. That's a cop-out. But we all have preferences. Some people like science-fiction while others don't.

Your complaints about advantages have nothing to do with the quality of the manga (ignoring the execution of some of them) but have everything to do with your personal preferences. Which is fine. Part 2 certainly has more team battles than Part 1, so it's a departure of what readers might expect based on Part 1.




Divinstrosity said:


> To this day, I can't help but wonder how did Kishimoto's writing drop off that much between the ending of part 1, the beginning of part 2. Very noticeable drop-off.
> 
> I guess maybe its easier to set-up plotlines than it is to execute them. At least for Kishimoto, anyway.




Agreed.


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Not everything is subjective. That's a cop-out. But we all have preferences. Some people like science-fiction while others don't.
> 
> Your complaints about advantages have nothing to do with the quality of the manga (ignoring the execution of some of them) but have everything to do with your personal preferences. Which is fine. Part 2 certainly has more team battles than Part 1, so it's a departure of what readers might expect based on Part 1.
> .


My issue isn't with team battles tho, it's that the team battles in Naruto are typically 2 Heroes vs 1 Villain, 4 Heroes vs 2 Vilains, 6 Heroes vs 1 Villain, etc... I.E. the heroes prevailing against the villains through being laughably advantaged instead of their own abilities. For example if it was Sasori had his own teammate against Sakura, that would be fine w/ me; but instead what we got, is Sasori being 1v2'd by Sakura & Chiyo, who had prior prep, and than still allowing himself to be killed in the end. 

So the issue is not Team battles vs individual battles.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> My issue isn't with team battles tho, it's that the team battles in Naruto are typically 2 Heroes vs 1 Villain, 4 Heroes vs 2 Vilains, 6 Heroes vs 1 Villain, etc... I.E. the heroes prevailing against the villains through being laughably advantaged instead of their own abilities. For example if it was Sasori had his own teammate against Sakura, that would be fine w/ me; but instead what we got, is Sasori being 1v2'd by Sakura & Chiyo, who had prior prep, and than still allowing himself to be killed in the end.
> 
> So the issue is not Team battles vs individual battles.




Like I said before, one-versus-many battles are a matter of personal taste.

They are perfectly acceptable and are in no way an objective criticism of the manga.


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Like I said before, one-versus-many battles are a matter of personal taste.
> 
> They are perfectly acceptable and are in no way an objective criticism of the manga.


And I repeat, the issue isn't 1vsMany, the issue is that the heroes are always laughably advantaged in Part II; 1vMany is just one expression of that.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> And I repeat, the issue isn't 1vsMany, the issue is that the heroes are always laughably advantaged in Part II; 1vMany is just one expression of that.




It's your opinion that:
preparations and prior knowledge,
geographic and first-attack advantage,
running out of munition,
one-versus-many
...
 are all expressions that the heroes are "laughably advantaged".

You're reasoning seems as follows:
 I don't like this stuff.
 Therefore the heroes are advantaged.
 Therefore the villains are too powerful.

My counter is as follows:
 The villains are S-ranked missing nin while the heroes are a mix of chunin and jonin.
 Therefore the heroes cannot win either one-on-one or any multiple of this (two-on-two and so on).
 Therefore the heroes need to fight many-on-one and use any advantage at their disposal.


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## Lucaniel (Jan 31, 2016)

> The villains are S-ranked missing nin while the heroes are a mix of chunin and jonin.



lol, in name only

naruto is basically jounin level from the start of part II


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> It's your opinion that:
> preparations and prior knowledge,
> geographic and first-attack advantage,
> running out of munition,
> ...


Dude how is it an opinion that Sakura is heavily advantaged ( or Sasori is heavily disadvantaged, whatever way you want to look at it) when Sakura has Chiyo as a Teammate, Prior Prep, and Sasori ultimately offing himself? And that's honestly a rather tame example, next to say the advantages Naruto had against Kakuzu or Pain.

Let's start there before even getting into the rest of your post.


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## Mikon (Jan 31, 2016)

Dat ignore, tho (HoroHoro)


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## NarutoShion4ever (Jan 31, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> lol, in name only
> 
> naruto is basically jounin level from the start of part II




Agreed, but that doesn't matter much when Kishimoto doesn't allow Naruto to impact the plot.

More importantly, all the 'rookies' other than Neji are chunin.




Turrin said:


> Dude how is it an opinion that Sakura is heavily advantaged (or Sasori is heavily disadvantaged, whatever way you want to look at it) when Sakura has Chiyo as a Teammate, Prior Prep, and Sasori ultimately offing himself? And that's honestly a rather tame example, next to say the advantages Naruto had against Kakuzu or Pain.
> 
> Let's start there before even getting into the rest of your post.




How is it *not* an opinion to say that a chunin-level ninja like Sakura is heavily advantaged by having an elderly jonin-level ninja like Chiyo as a teammate against an S-rank missing nin?

You might as well say that Zabuza was disadvantaged when Naruto and Sasuke ganged up on him to free Kakashi from his water prison.


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## Jeroen (Jan 31, 2016)

DemonDragonJ said:


> At what point do you believe that this series began to decline? I await your responses.



5 seconds after Zabuza died.


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## Epyon (Jan 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> As far as Naruto's power goes, I think it's the reverse and that your overestimating Naruto and than complaining because you overinflated version of Naruto isn't performing to your standards. When we should be going off what the Manga portrayed. The manga portrayed Naruto barely winning out against Neji in the Chunin Exams due to Neji underestimating him and barely winning out against Gaara, because he got lucky that he managed to summon Bunta correctly, which is in essence a crap shoot. That places Naruto at best around Neji's level in the Chunin Exams Finals (if not slightly bellow) and almost always bellow Gaara. Kishimoto has also gone on record say Shikkamaru would have won if he finished the exams, so that also places him beneath Shikkamaru.



Except that Shikamaru didn't finish the exams, he lost/gave up after one fight. Also Kankuro had already given up (even though we see he'd kill Shino if there is no outside intervention. and Neji and two out of Gaara/Sasuke/Naruto had been taken care off for him. That Shikamaru might have beaten the guy that fought through the much more gruelingly difficult path does not make Naruto an underdog respective of him. And just because Naruto lost to Sasuke in one particular encounter doesn't mean he hadn't earned his place amongst the best of his age group when he defeated Neji and Gaara.

Respective of his goal of Hokage he's an underdog, yes. So is basically everyone respective of their highest as yet unobtained goals making the term useless in that context.


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## The Runner (Jan 31, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> Yup, it's pretty ironic to see what Naruto has become in the end. Back in Part 1, he didn't turn the conversation about himself when he lectured Zabuza, and in Part 1, he still had enough self-awareness to admit he's jealous of Sasuke. He explicitly stated in the Land of Waves arc that he didn't like the shinobi system, and he didn't want to grow into the kind of adult Zabuza is, which is a tool with no human feelings. He was written with more sincerity and passion back then.
> 
> Now? He became the very thing he swore to never become, in which he became a douchebag who keeps telling his son to suck up his feelings and endure for the village, because that's what shinobi do. He also became another asshole Hokage in the office like Tobirama and Hiruzen who serves the village system at the expense of the peasants and his own humanity. Naruto is acting just like Hiruzen did back in his reign. He didn't change jack with the village system because reforms wouldn't benefit the system or him. Reforms would reveal the shinobi system as abusive, undermine the peasants loyalty to system, and weakened the system's control over its subjects.
> 
> ...



The moment I saw Naruto with that Hokage cloak, the kid in me that grew up liking the little orange ball of cocky sunshine for his inherent likability and passion went full blast; regardless of the crap I've seen before. It's one of those feelings I doubt I'll ever have again.

The moment that fucker opened his mouth and told his kid to suck it up? I fucking exploded inside. friend is a straight up hypocrite. His actions in the Gaiden and Movie made it even worse in that regard. It's like the kid in me was being punched in the gut after all the abuse he took in Part 2. 

I never knew somebody could screw up a character this badly before.


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## DSTREET45 (Jan 31, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> And don't get me started on Kiba. Kiba spent his entire fight against Naruto in the preliminaries curb-stomping him and he would have beaten him if it wasn't for a fart. Yes, a fucking fart halted Kiba from finishing off Naruto. What makes the battle even worse is the fact that the fart just happened out of nowhere and he won because of that. It was some stupid convenient plot point Kishimoto pulled out of his ass. Then again, he was never good at writing strategic battles like Yoshihiro Togashi or Araki Hirohiko to begin with.



Wasn't Naruto gimped like 2 times before going into the fight? Orochimaru's seal screwed up his chakra control and Naurto stayed up all night using Kage Bunshin and Henge No Justu in a previous fight that occured in the same day as his fight with Kiba. Even after it was  he practically went on to solo them in the next chapter. So Naruto wasn't anywhere near his best (not that everyone there wasn't 100% but as far as we know Naruto was busting his ass in sub-optimal conditions beforehnd)


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## Euraj (Jan 31, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Agreed, but that doesn't matter much when Kishimoto doesn't allow Naruto to impact the plot.
> 
> More importantly, all the 'rookies' other than Neji are chunin.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying, but that's not really subjective. Having a partner that has the same fighting style as your opponent, knows a significant portion of his abilities and all the while, you have a number of prepared counters (antidotes) to one of his primary strengths is quite an irrevocable advantage. Comparing that to Naruto and Sasuke fighting Zabuza is a false comparison because neither of them were knowledgeable of Zabuza's abilities or were an advantageous match-up against him ability-wise. In addition, the objective of the heroes in that scene was entirely different as you stated yourself. 

What's subjective, which is where I thought you were going reading this page originally, is whether or not the aforementioned match-up harmed the story.


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## Turrin (Jan 31, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> How is it *not* an opinion to say that a chunin-level ninja like Sakura is heavily advantaged by having an elderly jonin-level ninja like Chiyo as a teammate against an S-rank missing nin?
> 
> You might as well say that Zabuza was disadvantaged when Naruto and Sasuke ganged up on him to free Kakashi from his water prison.


"an unfavorable circumstance or condition that reduces the chances of success or effectiveness."

Sasori having to fight 1v2, his enemies having prior knowledge and prep, and his emotional turmoil are indeed unfavorable conditions of the match. Same thing w/ Zabuza being ganged up on.

The fact that Zabuza way stronger than Part 1 Naruto doesn't change the fact that he was disadvantaged having to fight 1v3, against Kakashi, Naruto, and Sasuke. 

The difference between that and Part II, tho is that Zabuza when disadvantaged there wasn't killed, instead he faced Kakashi later on w/o said disadvantage. If that was Part II, Team Kakashi would have also had prep, and Zabuza would have still be stronger ultimately, but then offed himself at the end due to plot reasons.



Epyon said:


> Except that Shikamaru didn't finish the exams, he lost/gave up after one fight. Also Kankuro had already given up (even though we see he'd kill Shino if there is no outside intervention. and Neji and two out of Gaara/Sasuke/Naruto had been taken care off for him. That Shikamaru might have beaten the guy that fought through the much more gruelingly difficult path does not make Naruto an underdog respective of him. And just because Naruto lost to Sasuke in one particular encounter doesn't mean he hadn't earned his place amongst the best of his age group when he defeated Neji and Gaara.
> 
> Respective of his goal of Hokage he's an underdog, yes. So is basically everyone respective of their highest as yet unobtained goals making the term useless in that context.



Who gave up and who didn't give up was dictated by Kishimoto making the decision that the exams were going to be interrupted, if they were not obviously Shikkamaru and Kankuro wouldn't have given up. 

And saying Shikkamaru would have the easier path is baseless. We do not know what the match ups would have been, after Round 1. Shikkamaru could have fought Gaara, Naruto, or Sasuke next, he didn't have to fight Shino or Kankuro. and even if he did nothing says that they wouldn't have given each competitor time to heal up and rest between matches. So Naruto, Gaara, or Sasuke may have been going into the final round against Shikkamaru fresh.

What we do know is that Shikkamaru was viewed as the superior Shinobi by the author and he illustrates this by making Shikkamaru the only one to become Chunin.


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## fyhb (Jan 31, 2016)

When at the five Kage summit and when we barely spent any time developing any of the new characters.


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## Skaddix (Feb 1, 2016)

Yeah I was expecting a Konoha Civil War Arc instead Sasuke wrapped it up in five seconds;


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## Epyon (Feb 1, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Who gave up and who didn't give up was dictated by Kishimoto making the decision that the exams were going to be interrupted, if they were not obviously Shikkamaru and Kankuro wouldn't have given up.



And Kishimoto DID make him give up. Whereas Naruto never gives up. When he can't move anything other then his mouth and chin he'll keep going, unlike Gaara. And that has everything to do with why he won his battles, unlike Shikamaru, Gaara and Neji. It was hardly all crapshoot and meaningless, what actually happened in the manga says something about these characters, I'd like to think so at least.



> And saying Shikkamaru would have the easier path is baseless. We do not know what the match ups would have been, after Round 1. Shikkamaru could have fought Gaara, Naruto, or Sasuke next, he didn't have to fight Shino or Kankuro. and even if he did nothing says that they wouldn't have given each competitor time to heal up and rest between matches. So Naruto, Gaara, or Sasuke may have been going into the final round against Shikkamaru fresh.


Yes we do, we saw the bracket and Gaara and Sasuke's jutsu do more then just make you tired. Even Tsunade's abilities can only do so much to heal the damage done by Gaara and she wasn't even an option.



> What we do know is that Shikkamaru was viewed as the superior Shinobi by the author and he illustrates this by making Shikkamaru the only one to become Chunin.



What we do know is that Shikamaru displaying combatabilities straight up equal to, let alone objectively better then Naruto, Sasuke, Lee, Gaara and Neji in front of anyone did not happen in the manga canon. And for all the years that his classmates have known him prior he's been as big a failure as Naruto. Naruto has no business feeling himself the underdog when being stacked up against Shikamaru, nor would any member of the Konoha 12 or the senseis perceive Naruto as such. In this respect Shikamaru is not even equal to Kiba..


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 1, 2016)

Euraj said:


> I get what you're saying, but that's not really subjective. Having a partner that has the same fighting style as your opponent, knows a significant portion of his abilities and all the while, you have a number of prepared counters (antidotes) to one of his primary strengths is quite an irrevocable advantage. Comparing that to Naruto and Sasuke fighting Zabuza is a false comparison because neither of them were knowledgeable of Zabuza's abilities or were an advantageous match-up against him ability-wise. In addition, the objective of the heroes in that scene was entirely different as you stated yourself.
> 
> What's subjective, which is where I thought you were going reading this page originally, is whether or not the aforementioned match-up harmed the story.




Yeah, it's been a bit difficult to stay on point.

It was a facetious comparison.

 I thought I was pretty clear that I didn't believe the match-up harmed the story. What has been making this discussion difficult are the hidden assumptions we all start our argument with. And those have been made visible by arguing back and forth. 

But there's a subtle difference in perspective that is also making the conversation difficult: if one focusses on *Sakura as an individual* then one can argue that Chiyo is an advantage, but if one focusses on *Chiyo and Sakura as a team* one cannot. That might seem obvious when it's written like that, but consider the following:
If the focus is on Sakura as an individual, then Chiyo is a huge advantage.
If the focus is on Chiyo as an individual, then Sakura is a compensation for her old age.
If the focus is on Chiyo and Sakura as a team, the emphasis shifts to how dangerous Sasori is.
 So when Sakura has attained the rank of chunin at the start of Part 2, I am not inclined to focus on Sakura as an individual when they're fighting jonin and S-rank missing nin.




Turrin said:


> disadvantage = "an unfavorable circumstance or condition that reduces the chances of success or effectiveness."
> 
> Sasori having to fight 1v2, his enemies having prior knowledge and prep, and his emotional turmoil are indeed unfavorable conditions of the match.
> 
> ...




Sakura versus Sasori would have been a curbstomp battle. Anything that makes the fight more equal does not mean that Sasori is at a disadvantage.

[noun]: an unfavourable circumstance or condition that reduces the chances of success or effectiveness
[mass noun]: situations of serious social and economic disadvantage
[verb with object]: put in an unfavourable position in relation to someone or something else
[at a disadvantage]: in an unfavourable position relative to someone or something else
[to one's disadvantage]: so as to cause harm to one?s interests or standing​
Sasori having to fight two people does not lessen his chance of success when you take into account he's a puppeteer with multiple puppets. Sasori having to fight his teacher does not lessen his chance of success when you take into account that Sasori knows as much about Chiyo as Chiyo knows about Sasori. Sakura having two antidotes against Sasori's poison does not lessen his chance of success when you take into account he only has to wound them 3 times.


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## LunarMoon (Feb 1, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> He became the very thing he swore to never become, in which he became a douchebag who keeps telling his son to suck up his feelings and endure for the village



Naruto mentioned that he didn't want to become Zabuza, who at the time, had launched into a rant about how Haku,  kid who had sacrificed his life to save him, was nothing to him but a tool. Naruto's a guy with a picture of his wife and kids in his office. To compare Naruto to the former is hilarious.

Naruto would have given his left nut to grow up like Boruto. He has it better than any of the Rookie 11 did. Rich prodigy, from a loving family, who everyone never ceases to lather with praise. Dad is ninja president. He's that kid with Iphone and expensive clothing who never shuts up about his parents.



> He also became another asshole Hokage in the office like Tobirama and Hiruzen who serves the village system at the expense of the peasants and his own humanity



Someone's an Uchiha sympathizer. What did Tobirama do? Establish the police and academy system in Konoho? Hiruzen sacrificed his life to save the village and was one of the few adults who didn't view Naruto as Kurama's reincarnation.




> He didn't change jack with the village system because reforms wouldn't benefit the system or him


I seriously doubt that Hyuga branch system, with his inlaws, is still in place, and this was the primary system flaw he actually claimed he would tackle.



> He lacks integrity, he failed to judge Orochimaru and his experimentations on babies as shown in Gaiden. I've been seeing some fans say he is compassionate, I don't think he is


Naruto is compassionate to a stupid degree. He forgives and sanctifies everyone, from Haku, to Zabuza, to Gaara, to Sasuke, to Nagato, to "coolest guy." He's a pacifist in a world of ninja assassins, because that's what Ashura was also about.



> He doesn't like being called dad by Boruto, and demands his son and everyone across the village to refer to him as, "Lord Hokage."



This is the only thing I can even halfway agree with. Naruto called Hiruzen "old man," as he whined to him about taking Genin missions, and unlike Iruka and Sakura, Hiruzen ended up taking his brattiness with good humor. Neither Hiruzen or Tsunade had a stick up their ass like Dadruto. That said, Boruto really is a spoiled, disrespectful brat, that I half thought even Hinata would end up slapping numerous times. "Dad's lucky because his parents are dead." Part I Sakura made a similar comment only for Sasuke, of all people, to reply with disgust.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 1, 2016)

I agree with Turrin. We needed more 1 v 1 fight as those were some of the best in the manga ie Sasuke vs Deidara/Itach, Jiraiya VS Pein, Hiruzen vs Orochimaru, though I have no problem with team battles. I hated Sasori vs SakuChiyo for the reasons Turrin stated. However, the Sannin fight is still to this day one of my favourties. It wasnt unfair, All the Sannin were nerfed and Shizune + Kid Naruto equalled Kabuto at the time so it was a fair and thus a fun fight. Kaguya fight was fun t read too. I quite liked her character and her abilities despite the fact that whole section of the manga was one large plothole.


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## Matty (Feb 1, 2016)

The war was it for me. After Danzo vs Sasuke it began to decline into a nuke fest. I agree that Sasori was definitley nerfed. No way you can say he wasn't at a disadvantage.  He is at a disadvantage because if they are straight up fighting he is far above both of them. He is inherently stronger and when you give them benefits like antidotes, knowledge, and prep he is automatically given a disadvantageous situation. You can spin it however you like it but it was disadvantageous. Hell it was just disadvantageous that he was fighting someone who had any link to his childhood/parents.


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## Keishin (Feb 1, 2016)

Maybe Naruto should have continued past that point to another arc and it might have turned better. Look at Zou arc in OP compared to DR.


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## Lord Tentei (Feb 1, 2016)

Really, I seen nothing wrong with anything. Granted I would have made things different and kept Sasuke on the path to evil and ending the series with Sasuke leveling Konoha and killing Naruto.

But, that's just me.


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## TRN (Feb 1, 2016)

翁宇智波 said:


> Really, I seen nothing wrong with anything. Granted I would have made things different and kept Sasuke on the path to evil and ending the series with Sasuke leveling Konoha and killing Naruto.
> 
> But, that's just me.



That like madara killing hashirama and leveling konoha, would require sasuke to become beyond Hagoromo power


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## DavyChan (Feb 1, 2016)

Right after Pain arc. That's when things got boring and just spastic.


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## Aduro (Feb 1, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> II agree that Sasori was definitley nerfed. No way you can say he wasn't at a disadvantage.  He is at a disadvantage because if they are straight up fighting he is far above both of them. He is inherently stronger and when you give them benefits like antidotes, knowledge, and prep he is automatically given a disadvantageous situation. You can spin it however you like it but it was disadvantageous. Hell it was just disadvantageous that he was fighting someone who had any link to his childhood/parents.



Fighting an enemy with intel wasn't really nerfing Sasori, it just showed that he was clever and crazy dangerous to dominate as much of that battle as he did. Really most battles in Naruto comes down to who has an attack the enemy couldn't plan for, so he did relatively well. Nerfing Sasori was what happened in the war arc, having Kabuto bring him back with none of his weapons (because apparently they were bestwoed to that talentless disappointment Kankuro) so he became almost useless.


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## Turrin (Feb 1, 2016)

Epyon said:


> And Kishimoto DID make him give up. Whereas Naruto never gives up. When he can't move anything other then his mouth and chin he'll keep going, unlike Gaara. And that has everything to do with why he won his battles, unlike Shikamaru, Gaara and Neji. It was hardly all crapshoot and meaningless, what actually happened in the manga says something about these characters, I'd like to think so at least.


Are you really trying to play Shikkamaru's "giving up" as a negative when Kishimoto basically gets on his knees and sucks Shikkamaru's proverbial cock, for said decision 

Link removed
Link removed
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> Yes we do, we saw the bracket and Gaara and Sasuke's jutsu do more then just make you tired. Even Tsunade's abilities can only do so much to heal the damage done by Gaara and she wasn't even an option.


Cool and you know that whoever fight them would suffer injuries they couldn't recover from how exactly? Also you know that Shikkamaru wouldn't suffer similar injuries in his fights how? You know that they wouldn't be given time to recover from severe injuries between matches how?



> What we do know is that Shikamaru displaying combatabilities straight up equal to, let alone objectively better then Naruto, Sasuke, Lee, Gaara and Neji in front of anyone did not happen in the manga canon. And for all the years that his classmates have known him prior he's been as big a failure as Naruto. Naruto has no business feeling himself the underdog when being stacked up against Shikamaru, nor would any member of the Konoha 12 or the senseis perceive Naruto as such. In this respect Shikamaru is not even equal to Kiba..


Kishimoto said he had trouble depicting Shikkamaru's abilities to their fullest extent because he is not a Genius himself, so that is likely why Shikkamaru's abilities don't quite match where Kishimoto felt he should be at ability wise. But that doesn't matter one bit as the author is telling us Shikkamaru would have won, so his abilities are enough to be the best in the Chunin Exams.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Feb 2, 2016)

From the start of Part 2. 

The rot took root then, but it didn't really set in and become apparent until later on in to Part 2. At that time it was still reversible, but it just continued, worsened and slowly spread until it was just inescapable.

There were still many high points in Part 2...but you have to wade through shit up to your waist to find them.


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## The Runner (Feb 2, 2016)

CM Pope said:


> From the start of Part 2.
> 
> The rot took root then, but it didn't really set in and become apparent until later on in to Part 2. At that time it was still reversible, but it just continued, worsened and slowly spread until it was just inescapable.
> 
> There were still many high points in Part 2...but you have to wade through shit up to your waist to find them.



I'd go as far to say that it probably stemmed from the end of Part 1, rather that the start of pt 2


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## Lucaniel (Feb 2, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I'd go as far to say that it probably stemmed from the end of Part 1, rather that the start of pt 2



i've seen a few people say this

...why?


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## Raiden (Feb 2, 2016)

^Yeah I've seen a few people say the same thing too. Mostly do with a sense that there wasn't an actual story beyond the Uchiha stuff for most of the second half. And looking back now kind of ruined the excitement that existed then though. While a lot of people here strongly approved of the Sakura vs. Sasori showdown, it wasn't actually intended to go anywhere. Which is amazing.


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## Stan Lee (Feb 2, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> i've seen a few people say this
> 
> ...why?



It was the start of the forced Team 7 relationship.


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## Zensuki (Feb 2, 2016)

Raiden said:


> ^Yeah I've seen a few people say the same thing too. Mostly do with a sense that there wasn't an actual story beyond the Uchiha stuff for most of the second half. And looking back now kind of ruined the excitement that existed then though. While a lot of people here strongly approved of the Sakura vs. Sasori showdown, it wasn't actually intended to go anywhere. Which is amazing.



It was intended to be the introduction of the power Akatuski members had.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 2, 2016)

LunarMoon said:


> Naruto mentioned that he didn't want to become Zabuza, who at the time, had launched into a rant about how Haku, kid who had sacrificed his life to save him, was nothing to him but a tool. Naruto's a guy with a picture of his wife and kids in his office. To compare Naruto to the former is hilarious.



Why are you rephrasing my point? Also, I don't care if he got some family portrait in his office, the fact stands as it remains, Naruto's a neglectful father.



> Naruto would have given his left nut to grow up like Boruto. He has it better than any of the Rookie 11 did. Rich prodigy, from a loving family, who everyone never ceases to lather with praise. Dad is ninja president. He's that kid with Iphone and expensive clothing who never shuts up about his parents.



That's exactly my point, Naruto is a hypocrite. He acted like the world owed him recognition back he was his son's age. Boruto only wants it from his dad, he has every right to be angry. Naruto fathered him, but doesn't want to be a father to him. Pertaining to the, "Naruto is Ninja President!" excuse, if he's _that_ self-absorbed, he should've married to his job and never spawn children. Everyone has to prioritize their responsibilities in life, and juggle between family and work, not just people with important jobs.



> Someone's an Uchiha sympathizer. What did Tobirama do? Establish the police and academy system in Konoho? Hiruzen sacrificed his life to save the village and was one of the few adults who didn't view Naruto as Kurama's reincarnation.



The only reason Tobirama founded and handed over the ownership of the police forces to the Uchiha in the first place is because it's easier to monitor them when they all work at the same place. Because there's often tension between the police and the community, the policy also concentrated the negativity towards law enforcement on one clan. Characters like Danzo inherited that kind of policy Tobirama conducted.

The idea behind the Academy is flawed because it didn't solve the problems Hashirama and Madara intended to, which was child soldiers. When Hashirama and Madara experienced loss of younger siblings, Hashirama flipped out and confronted his father on the issue of using children for war after his 7-year-old brother got killed. But when Hashirama and Madara established the village, Tobirama founded on the idea that children would receive military training and they would take on missions like assassination, espionage, sabotage and kidnapping and that they'd be the main source of income for the village. 

Tobirama may be one of the most influential people in shaping the shinobi system than any other Hokage who came after him, no doubt about it. But he's also the one who fucked up on a grand scale. I don't care if Hiruzen sacrificed his life for a shithole like Konoha, which turned a blind eye to slavery and ethnic cleansing. Nor could I care less about Naruto's sob story, by the time he became a Genin, he already had people who didn't consider him a nuisance like the majority in the village. He should've grown out of his insatiable hunger for recognition at that point, from that point forward, it just came across as egoccentric.



> I seriously doubt that Hyuga branch system, with his inlaws, is still in place, and this was the primary system flaw he actually claimed he would tackle.



If Naruto really tackled the Hyuga clan and abolished their caste system like some fans like to imply, why do the branch members, notably Neji, still have the Cursed Seal placed on his forehead if there apparently was a change like some people like to claim?



> Naruto is compassionate to a stupid degree. He forgives and sanctifies everyone, from Haku, to Zabuza, to Gaara, to Sasuke, to Nagato, to "coolest guy." He's a pacifist in a world of ninja assassins, because that's what Ashura was also about.



So basically, you're admitting Naruto is inept and that he has no moral compasses of what is right and wrong, or what is forgivable and unforgivable, right?

Second, I don't think he's a pacifist of any sort. He's just some phony. As it stands, Naruto has defended the corrupted shinobi system more often than challenge it head-on, like I said some days ago on a . Naruto is a victim of the shitty practice on Jinchuriki, which boosts the village's military might in exchange for their humanity, yet, he doesn't seem to care much about or mind the practice as an entirety, he just feels terrible for himself.

Nor is Naruto by any means a pacifist of the sort. Like I explained on , he's the complete opposite as a matter of fact. Naruto supports the idea that children would receive military training at an early age and they would take on missions consisting of assassination, espionage, sabotage and kidnapping and that they'd be the main source of income for the village. This series preached about war, peace and called out the wrongs of the military use of children, yet, this series ended up producing more child soldiers. Naruto is just some slimy scumbag liar.



> This is the only thing I can even halfway agree with. Naruto called Hiruzen "old man," as he whined to him about taking Genin missions, and unlike Iruka and Sakura, Hiruzen ended up taking his brattiness with good humor. Neither Hiruzen or Tsunade had a stick up their ass like Dadruto. That said, Boruto really is a spoiled, disrespectful brat, that I half thought even Hinata would end up slapping numerous times. "Dad's lucky because his parents are dead." Part I Sakura made a similar comment only for Sasuke, of all people, to reply with disgust.



I don't think Boruto is a spoiled brat by any means like the majority do. Boruto is right as a matter of fact. Naruto is not a busy dad, he's a shitty dad, because a busy dad would apologize for not spending time with his son, instead of hitting him, a busy dad would understand it's his own responsibility to give the attention his son craves, instead of telling his son it's his job to endure. I'd act like Boruto too if I had a deadbeat like Naruto as a father figure. Naruto deserves whatever diss is coming to him, what does he do all day in his office anyway? Nothing but drink whiskey all day and surfing on the Internet in his office.

As much as I can't stand Boruto along with all the new generation brats, I can't help but feel for the kid. People are talking smack about him, calling him whiny and bratty, while at the same time, trying to make Naruto look like a saint. If Naruto is too busy with his bigger "family" Konoha, to spare time with his own family, don't ever start a family in the first place. If he's too busy to spend time with his son, don't reproduce, period. If people are going to give Boruto beef and call him a brat, or tell me Naruto is a good dad, then at least be consistent with me, and call Naruto a whiny brat when he was a kid too. If people don't think Boruto deserves his father's attention, Naruto, back when he was his son's age, had no reason to demand attention from Konoha, who weren't even related to him either. 

Besides, let's all agree that Konoha should've told Naruto to endure his loneliness too like he did with Boruto, because that's what good shinobi do after all.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 2, 2016)

Sir Jogga said:


> I'd go as far to say that it probably stemmed from the end of Part 1, rather that the start of pt 2





Lucaniel said:


> i've seen a few people say this
> 
> ...why?




Generally because it set up too many subplots. It gave us Orochimaru who was chasing after Sasuke's body; Sasuke who was chasing after Itachi; Itachi/Akatsuki who were chasing after Naruto; and Naruto who was chasing after Orochimaru.

Specifically because it broke up team 7. The moment Sakura stepped into Tsunade's office to become her apprentice, it required that Sasuke would get to Orochimaru. The manga never recovered and it's been juggling a hero and an anti-hero story-line ever since.




Raiden said:


> ^Yeah I've seen a few people say the same thing too. Mostly do with a sense that there wasn't an actual story beyond the Uchiha stuff for most of the second half. And looking back now kind of ruined the excitement that existed then though. While a lot of people here strongly approved of the Sakura vs. Sasori showdown, it wasn't actually intended to go anywhere. Which is amazing.




There wasn't an actual story behind anything in Part 2. So many things were introduced that never went anywhere---yet created a lot of excitement when it was introduced.


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## Indra (Feb 2, 2016)

I would argue that the end of Part 1 is where the series became lackluster. However Part 2 had its own legs somewhere after the Gaara retrieval Arc. 

The whole idea that Naruto didn't learn much from Jiraiya (or lack to show of) never sat with me well. They really enjoyed to show the differences between the Genius (Sasuke) and the hard worker (Naruto). But in reality it was just nerfing. Imagine if Naruto had learned Sage Mode instead of not hearing about it until Jiraiaya's death.

The series would of been more balanced. I mean there's no reason to make Naruto considerably weak for Sasuke until they meet half way. They did the same thing to Sasuke in the War Arc when Naruto was learning all these hack abilities really quickly. 

What I'm pointing out is that the Manga doesn't have a fair balance. Characters are thrown aside for other characters, talent/potential - abilities are the same, character development, and so forth.

What these writers need to tackle is fair play and equalization. Stop throwing bones to the characters you don't give a shit about and try to work with them in the story. If not, write them off. Honestly if you can't figure out what to do with a character, then there's no reason for that character to be apart of the story. He or she will just take up space in the story.

I even remember Kishimoto stating all these exciting things he wanted to do for the NARUTO series (back in JF) and Junko asked what about Sakura, to which he replied 'Forgot about her'. If they aren't important, they are not important.

It should be that clear. Don't force garbage, like your forcing the next generation series onto us. Write with a God damn purpose to tell a story and message, rather than to make your ends meat.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 2, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Generally because it set up too many subplots. It gave us Orochimaru who was chasing after Sasuke's body; Sasuke who was chasing after Itachi; Itachi/Akatsuki who were chasing after Naruto; and Naruto who was chasing after Orochimaru.


orochimaru chasing after sasuke's body was introduced as a subplot midway through the chunin exams arc, or if you want to get specific about him coming out and saying that this is why he wanted sasuke, then it was introduced at the beginning of his fight with sarutobi. sasuke chasing after itachi was set up almost from the beginning of the manga



anywho it's surely about the handling, not about the existence of the subplots. all of this could've been good if it had been handled well



> Specifically because it broke up team 7. The moment Sakura stepped into Tsunade's office to become her apprentice, it required that Sasuke would get to Orochimaru. The manga never recovered and it's been juggling a hero and an anti-hero story-line ever since.


you can also juggle those two storylines very effectively. look at justified. it's all about execution


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## Epyon (Feb 2, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Are you really trying to play Shikkamaru's "giving up" as a negative when Kishimoto basically gets on his knees and sucks Shikkamaru's proverbial cock, for said decision
> 
> Chapter 94
> Chapter 94
> Chapter 94



What makes someone a good leader and whhat makes them an objectively superior fighter in comparison to Naruto in the eyes of Naruto, those around him and the readers are different things.



> Cool and you know that whoever fight them would suffer injuries they couldn't recover from how exactly? Also you know that Shikkamaru wouldn't suffer similar injuries in his fights how? You know that they wouldn't be given time to recover from severe injuries between matches how?



I don't know, I just think it is possible that Kishimoto would've had Shikamaru win the tournament without straight overpowering Gaara, Naruto or Sasuke. There were outside factors at work in his with Temari too.



> Kishimoto said he had trouble depicting Shikkamaru's abilities to their fullest extent because he is not a Genius himself, so that is likely why Shikkamaru's abilities don't quite match where Kishimoto felt he should be at ability wise. But that doesn't matter one bit as the author is telling us Shikkamaru would have won, so his abilities are enough to be the best in the Chunin Exams.



And this argument somehow does not apply to Naruto who ACTUALLY defeated his Chuunin Exam competition?


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## Stan Lee (Feb 2, 2016)

The problem with Team 7 is that they never bonded enough before breaking them apart. Thus all that stuff in part 2 was unbelievable. I remember Sakura in the Kage Summit saying that Team 7 use to laugh together, but that was never shown, not even in a flashback.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 2, 2016)

i'll say this for the team 7 thing

if you reread naruto vs. gaara, sasuke tells naruto to save sakura at all costs. which is a lot more concern than i ever expected him to show for sakura given that he basically treats her like a rag for most of part II


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## HunterxH (Feb 2, 2016)

Sasuke made Team 7.


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## Hamaru (Feb 2, 2016)

It went to shit the moment Kishi stopped caring about the side characters that he established in Part 1 and power inflated Naruto...so....the Pain arc


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## Bruce Wayne (Feb 3, 2016)

Probably Kage Summit..definitely.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 3, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> orochimaru chasing after sasuke's body was introduced as a subplot midway through the chunin exams arc, or if you want to get specific about him coming out and saying that this is why he wanted sasuke, then it was introduced at the beginning of his fight with sarutobi. sasuke chasing after itachi was set up almost from the beginning of the manga
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm talking about *how* *many* subplots there were at the end Part 1. It's generally not a good idea to keep adding subplots.

It's all well to talk about handling and execution, but there's a reason why weekly series break things up into sagas, arcs, and gaidens. And with only 15 pages per chapter, this doesn't just limit the number of subplots that can be handled concurrently, but also the number of character perspectives.

I'm watching Justified, and one thing that's obvious is that Raylan Givens is primary while Boyd Crowder is secondary. Which is necessary because only one character perspective/morality can be primary in a setting. That's a simple choice that Kishimoto never managed to make.




Lucaniel said:


> i'll say this for the team 7 thing
> 
> if you reread naruto vs. gaara, sasuke tells naruto to save sakura at all costs. which is a lot more concern than i ever expected him to show for sakura given that he basically treats her like a rag for most of part II




The team 7 dynamics were perfect for Part 1; they were insufficient to justify Part 2. The manga doesn't even re-establish team 7 because Sasuke immediately goes off on a solo mission again. So the manga's end doesn't even justify the chase that happened throughout Part 2.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 3, 2016)

Team 7 sucks, to be honest. It's overly romanticized because they were the main characters, bonds is a recurring theme of the manga and leaving Konoha or anything Konoha-related is never valid. I much preferred Sasuke with Taka and consider them his real team. When people criticize Team 7 and say their dynamics is executed horribly, they mean they have friction. The reason for it was Naruto and Sakura were especially emotionally needy around Sasuke. Sakura wanted her romantic affections recriprocated, Naruto wanted Sasuke's recognition. But Sasuke was too preoccupied with his own goals to give a darn about what other people wanted from him. It frustrated Naruto and Sakura to no end, because they were denied. In comparison, Sakura and Naruto didn't want anything from Sai, Taka didn't want anything from Sasuke. Karin was romantically interested in Sasuke, but at least she didn't wallow in misery when she got rejected. 

I think this blog  explains it best why Team 7 is atrocious.


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## Epyon (Feb 3, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> I think this blog  explains it best why Team 7 is atrocious.



I'd say your post does a better job of it then this blog post does. Going the extra mile of saying people hate Team Hebi/Taka because they don't want Sasuke to have bonds outside Team 7 is pretty disingenuous. In practice it's been the other way around. Sasuke doesn't interact with Lee, Sai or Gaara, or Shino. Even his interaction with Kakashi is startingly limited. Naruto is not what stands in the way of that, Sasuke continuing to mostly be a outside Konoha character post-redemption alongside Suigetsu, Karin and Juugo is.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 3, 2016)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I'm talking about *how* *many* subplots there were at the end Part 1. It's generally not a good idea to keep adding subplots.
> 
> It's all well to talk about handling and execution, but there's a reason why weekly series break things up into sagas, arcs, and gaidens. And with only 15 pages per chapter, this doesn't just limit the number of subplots that can be handled concurrently, but also the number of character perspectives.


idk imo it could've worked in the hands of a better writer, and not necessarily a great writer, just one with a better grasp of his own themes and characterisation and pacing 



> I'm watching Justified, and one thing that's obvious is that Raylan Givens is primary while Boyd Crowder is secondary. Which is necessary because only one character perspective/morality can be primary in a setting. That's a simple choice that Kishimoto never managed to make.


what season are you on? because it becomes an almost 50/50 split eventually. and imo the idea that only one character perspective/morality can be primary in a setting is really restrictive and oversimplified, there's a lot of works out there which thrive on equally privileging multiple perspectives or moralities, especially fiction based around an event where the characters are experiencing it and reacting to it


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## Closet Pervert (Feb 3, 2016)

^Re: the primary vs. secondary dichotomy: sounds like some dogmatic drama student bullshit.

What about Lethal Weapon? Riggs was part of the same group as the bad guys, but Rog is personally involved in the case in more than one ways. Riggs is the Lethal Weapon, but Rog has way more in the personal stakes. Riggs is suicidal psycho, Rog is a meek family man. Riggs calms down, and Rog becomes a little more badass.

Have you seen Hannibal, NarutoShion4Ever? (figures you have Mikkelsen in your avatar Luca)

HBO's Carnivale? Rome?


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## Lucaniel (Feb 3, 2016)

the idea that any single character's morality is primary in a setting, especially the protagonist's, is itself problematic because if your protagonist is literally always right, then there's never moral conflict, and your narrative is a bunch of aesop's fables

ideally either a distinct morality should exist against which every character is measured, or no morality should be held as absolute by the text and the reader should make their own moral decisions


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## Closet Pervert (Feb 3, 2016)

Good point, and yeah Naruto sucked.


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## Seto Kaiba (Feb 3, 2016)

I just found it interesting they reflected a lot of criticisms we have made here. Particularly about Sasuke and the villains.


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## Shinryu (Feb 3, 2016)

I dont know why people complain about the child of destiny test it made the manga more interesting due to the new lore added, the plot twist of the Juubi being a divine entity was also much better than it being some random malevolent extradimensional entity. The addition of the Ootsuki lineage has made the Naruto world more interesting and deeper than some shitty ninja manga.


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## Stan Lee (Feb 3, 2016)

The Ootsutsuki lineage ruined the Immortal Arc's theme.


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## Lucaniel (Feb 3, 2016)

Shinryu said:


> I dont know why people complain about the child of destiny test it made the manga more interesting due to the new lore added, the plot twist of the Juubi being a divine entity was also much better than it being some random malevolent extradimensional entity. The addition of the Ootsuki lineage has made the Naruto world more interesting and deeper than some shitty ninja manga.


lmao

holy shit you're one of a kind my man


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## Divinstrosity (Feb 3, 2016)

Shinryu said:


> I dont know why people complain about the child of destiny test it made the manga more interesting due to the new lore added, the plot twist of the Juubi being a divine entity was also much better than it being some random malevolent extradimensional entity. The addition of the Ootsuki lineage has made the Naruto world more interesting and deeper than some shitty ninja manga.



So it is possible for a human to eat a shit sandwich and thoroughly enjoy it.


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## Shinryu (Feb 3, 2016)

P1 Naruto was cool and all but that ninja stuff was boring as shit after a while, it got much better with the introduction of Pein, then the Juubi stuff.


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Epyon said:


> What makes someone a good leader and whhat makes them an objectively superior fighter in comparison to Naruto in the eyes of Naruto, those around him and the readers are different things.


Shikkamaru's cock was also sucked for his combat abilities. 



He would have certainly won if this was a team battle, which most Ninja battles are.

This is despite the fact that Shikkamaru intentionally held back because she was a woman:



And Temari had help from Kankuro altering her to Shikkamaru's strategy otherwise she would have been defeated easily:





> I don't know, I just think it is possible that Kishimoto would've had Shikamaru win the tournament without straight overpowering Gaara, Naruto or Sasuke. There were outside factors at work in his with Temari too.


Temari was advantaged, and still basically played off as having lost the match, even though Shikkamaru gave up.



> And this argument somehow does not apply to Naruto who ACTUALLY defeated his Chuunin Exam competition?


Naruto proved he was one of the best, Kishimoto is telling us Shikkamaru was thee best.


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## DarkRasengan (Feb 4, 2016)

After jiraiya died, it wen't from, well this guy is super strong because he has an ability that buffs everything he does as long as his two summons are with him who also add to his moveset, and this guys super strong because he has 6 different bodies that can coordinate together and each have a broken ability. To, well this guys just fucking stronger than everyone, his normal katons can take out bijuu hes that fucking strong. raikage shouldn't hold a candle to sage mode strength wise or durability, none of them should, madara shouldn't have been able to toy with the kages with his abilities, kaguya shouldnt even exist. It should be logical powerups and jutsu over just, well this guys just stronger.

No one should be physically stronger than someone with sage mode, or faster unless they have a spacetime jutsu, and no jutsu that is powered by a normal ninja should be able to do shit to a bijuu unless its some crazy overpowered and taxing jutsu like the death god or susanoo.

Kakashi is like the best example of what strength should be in the manga, amazing arsenal of jutsu, incredible intellect, 1 trump card. and people should be able to outsmart trump card usage, not just be like well i'm too strong to be effected by this.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 4, 2016)

Lucaniel said:


> idk imo it could've worked in the hands of a better writer, and not necessarily a great writer, just one with a better grasp of his own themes and characterisation and pacing




Let me rephrase: It's generally not a good idea to add subplots when you're already struggling with the current ones.

But the medium matters as well. A book can be as complex as you want it to be because it's only published in its finished form. Same thing applies for a movie---although its production process is much more complex. A tv series depends on both the qualities of the writers and the qualities of the actors. And a comic book has both a writer and an artist. But a mangaka is responsible both for the writing and the art.

Besides, the narutoverse is already highly moralising because every villain has a tiny bit of good inside them. Kishimoto simply wanted Sasuke to follow the same path as all those villains did but without having to face the same consequences. So the inconsistency between Sasuke's path and the theme of the manga is a deliberate choice on Kishimoto's part. (There's too much consistency in how Sasuke avoids consequences for it to have happened by accident.)




Lucaniel said:


> what season are you on? because it becomes an almost 50/50 split eventually. and imo the idea that only one character perspective/morality can be primary in a setting is really restrictive and oversimplified, there's a lot of works out there which thrive on equally privileging multiple perspectives or moralities, especially fiction based around an event where the characters are experiencing it and reacting to it




I'm in the middle of season 3.

It might seem restrictive and oversimplified, but the principle is still at the core of stories that seem to defy it. The privilege of one protagonist was easily extended to a group of protagonists. Your example of an event is excellent: it's actually the event itself that's privileged. And with Justified, you could say that the privilege of a group of protagonists is now divided into an anti-hero protagonist and an anti-villain antagonist. So I'm not denying the principle has evolved, but I think it had to change because it was breaking through our suspension of disbelief---and writers were forced to hide the principle in different ways.

I suppose it depends on how you look at things. Personally, I think it's telling that these new developments always start in the realistic fictions and take time to infiltrate the speculative fiction. IMHO, that's because realistic stories don't have to do word-building nor do they have to adapt real-world morality to account for supernatural abilities.




Lucaniel said:


> the idea that any single character's morality is primary in a setting, especially the protagonist's, is itself problematic because if your protagonist is literally always right, then there's never moral conflict, and your narrative is a bunch of aesop's fables
> 
> ideally either a distinct morality should exist against which every character is measured, or no morality should be held as absolute by the text and the reader should make their own moral decisions




It's not so much problematic as it's clich?/old-fashioned/traditional. We consume so many of those stories at a young age that they've become boring at an older age. People dislike the prophecy stuff for the same reason: it's an in-universe confirmation that the protagonist is always right. But this only matters as long as the suspension of disbelief is a subconscious action. Ones the suspension of disbelief becomes a more conscious decision, the differences aren't as huge as people make them out to be.

But those two examples imply that either an objective morality is privileged, or every morality is privileged. And for a show like Justified, you could also say that "the law" is the objective morality that every character is measured against.


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## vered (Feb 5, 2016)

For me personally: at the end of the pein arc when Nagato revived everyone instead of having a proper final fight against Naruto, but especially everything that came after the Pein arc that included the Kages arc and especially the war arc -The Pein arc was the last great arc of the series with a proper villain and a proper battle. It's also possible to trace the Series downward spiral after  the Jiraya vs Pein fight and the Itachi vs Sasuke fight . In my opinion, both fights were the high point of part 2 and represented so much promise for future story lines and developments that never came to pass.


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## MS81 (Feb 6, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> It went to shit the moment Kishi stopped caring about the side characters that he established in Part 1 and power inflated Naruto...so....the Pain arc



This right here...


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## Mikon (Feb 6, 2016)

Shippuden started pretty weak, but got really good in the Hidan&Kakuzu arc, until the end of the Pain arc.
Even with the rookies being thrown to the side, the story telling and the fights were top notch. Still my favorite arcs, even now. (Hunt for Itachi and Pain invasion). The beginning of the end was when Nagato revived everyone...but there still were some nice moments like the Kushina flashback and KIsame's death. The War arc clearly surpassed everything until now, and became even worse than the Arrancar arc in Bleach...some Fairy Tail level just without the ecchi.


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## Shinryu (Feb 6, 2016)

Who cares about the rookies, anyone with a brain knew this manga would only focus on Nurudu and Sausage.


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## HoroHoro (inactive) (Feb 6, 2016)

Shinryu said:


> Who cares about the rookies, anyone with a brain knew this manga would only focus on Nurudu and Sausage.



eww

this manga should've honestly focused on team guy tbh


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## Sniffers (Feb 7, 2016)

For me the decline started right after Itachi died.

This was the point Sasuke's story started to stutter. He had done what he had set out to do, but he needed to go down further somehow and simply became crazy in stead of cool and calculated. The character changed in a bad way.

This was also around the time where Naruto put his Biju power on the side to learn a completely new technique out of nowhere, Sage Mode. From the beginning it was the idea that Naruto would learn to control his Biju, but this was some sort of side road which kinda felt slow and unnecessary. Of course it didn't help that at this point the city-scale attacks became a thing with Pain attacking Konoha, which was just boring compared to the calculated, intelligent fights we had before that.


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## Mikon (Feb 7, 2016)

Sniffers said:


> For me the decline started right after Itachi died.
> 
> This was the point Sasuke's story started to stutter. He had done what he had set out to do, but he needed to go down further somehow and simply became crazy in stead of cool and calculated. The character changed in a bad way.
> 
> This was also around the time where Naruto put his Biju power on the side to learn a completely new technique out of nowhere, Sage Mode. From the beginning it was the idea that Naruto would learn to control his Biju, but this was some sort of side road which kinda felt slow and unnecessary. Of course it didn't help that at this point the city-scale attacks became a thing with Pain attacking Konoha, which was just boring compared to the calculated, intelligent fights we had before that.



Naruto vs Pain had strategy, what are you talking about?
Keeping shadow clones in Mount Myōboku (The frogs place) because of the time limit of the Sage Mode. Attacking with Frog Kata (using natural enegry) to counter their shared view, using smoke bombs and henge in order to attack the original (Tendo) Pain which didn't have his gravity powers at the moment. The latest part of the fight was quite good, with the Rasen-shuriken being the decoy for Naruto's shadow clones that attacked Pain and made him use the Shinra Tensei (which made a chance for Naruto to attack him because of the 5 seconds interval of his techniques)

Pain arc was good (minus the ending). Thing is that it could've been better, that's it, really.
If you just don't like it, that's fine, but it's certainly wasn't bad. The ending ruined it totally.


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## Sniffers (Feb 7, 2016)

^ Sure it had strategy, but it seemed that raw power became the bigger deal over skill. Also, I thought the strategies involved in that battle weren't that intelligent honestly. Mostly simple diversions/smoke screens.


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## Mikon (Feb 7, 2016)

Sniffers said:


> ^ Sure it had strategy, but it seemed that raw power became the bigger deal over skill. Also, I thought the strategies involved in that battle weren't that intelligent honestly. Mostly simple diversions/smoke screens.



I didn't say that the battle was on some Code Geass/Death Note level, but it was entertaining, nonetheless.
Also, lol, you are the one who created the Itachi vs Pain manga thing? That's fucking nostalgic, lmao


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## Sniffers (Feb 7, 2016)

Mikon said:


> I didn't say that the battle was on some Code Geass/Death Note level, but it was entertaining, nonetheless.
> Also, lol, you are the one who created the Itachi vs Pain manga thing? That's fucking nostalgic, lmao


Yeah, that's quite a few years back. Haven't posted in ages either.


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## fyhb (Feb 7, 2016)

The Pain arc was when it dramatically fell apart but there were signs at the end of P1 and the beginning of P2 when Naruto started obsessing over Sasuke's cock at the expense of others and the village.


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## ChosenOne1DO (Feb 7, 2016)

to be honest i think the series declined the moment the point of the story was on naruto and sasuke's relationship


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## Shiny (Feb 8, 2016)

right here my friends


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## shade0180 (Feb 8, 2016)

It was before that. but close enough.


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## Skaddix (Feb 8, 2016)

Shinryu said:


> Who cares about the rookies, anyone with a brain knew this manga would only focus on Nurudu and Sausage.



I do have to agree characters like that dont tend to keep pace with the main characters and this is not a manga where being smarter is all that relevant in fights...its good for prep


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## RBL (Feb 8, 2016)

HoroHoro said:


> eww
> 
> this manga should've honestly focused on team guy tbh



team guy is better than shitty team 7.

team 7 was cool in part 1 tho.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Feb 8, 2016)

Shiny said:


> right here my friends




Kishimoto surely took that more seriously than I ever thought he would.


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## Kage (Feb 8, 2016)

Around the Pain arc and the reveal that Itachi was totes good all this time.


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## Divinstrosity (Feb 8, 2016)

Sniffers said:


> For me the decline started right after Itachi died.


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## Lucy75 (Feb 8, 2016)

It never declined.

Come at me.


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## Reyes (Feb 8, 2016)

After Sause killed Oro and became the protagonist for nearly a year.



Lucy75 said:


> It never declined.
> 
> Come at me.



You made this shitty post before in this thread:


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## Saoirse (Feb 8, 2016)

I agree with the Pein arc. I will never stop being sad and also mad because of all the wasted potential.


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## Lucy75 (Feb 8, 2016)

Reyes said:


> After Sause killed Oro and became the protagonist for nearly a year.
> 
> 
> 
> You made this shitty post before in this thread:


Lol, I forgot that fast.


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## Hero (Feb 11, 2016)

Whenever it started to focus on the Uchiha. For me the child of prophecy was tolerable. It conflicted with Neji but I dealt with it. 

I think the manga really hit the pits during the war arc. Rock bottom was when Sasori was easily body bagged & when all these people were reviewed to be off paneled. There were highlights in the war, but a lot of it was bad

Also there was a problem with the lack of distinction between the war arc and Kaguya. It's all one thing to me


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