# KCM Naruto vs Hebi Sasuke



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 11, 2015)

Since apparently a Mangekyo Sharingan-less Sasuke can hang on the tier KCM Naruto operates at...

Battlefield: Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage
Starting Distance: 40 Meters
Restrictions: Biju Mode
Knowledge: Same as in manga

Who wins?


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## Ashi (May 11, 2015)

Hey hop off the bandwagon!


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## Bonly (May 11, 2015)

Naruto was training on his KCM for god knows how long, left out and constantly used KCM to run towards the war zone until he met up with A+Tsunade. He then used KCM during that bout with A, kept it up until he met with the white Zetsu clones in an army squad. He then used multiple jutsu fighting them off and then he split his chakra up 13 different ways between himself and 12 clone. And to top it all off Kurama was sucking out his chakra for an certain(unknown) amount of time shortly after Naruto got KCM. 

Basically in a tl;dr we didn't really see a full power KCM Naruto during the war. We've seen the feats his clones can pull off and to make it worst a clone of Naruto didn't have much chakra left  and yet when Kurama chose to give Naruto some said clone made a bunch of clones while the whole first row of clones made Chou Oodama Rasengans in order to stop Madara's Mokuton(not to mention he can still use SM). A Full powered Naruto is a very dangerous character that some people underrate so yeah Hebi Sasuke is gonna get his ass kicked seven ways to Sunday


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## Kai (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Naruto was training on his KCM for god knows how long, left out and constantly used KCM to run towards the war zone until he met up with A+Tsunade. He then used KCM during that bout with A, kept it up until he met with the white Zetsu clones in an army squad. He then used multiple jutsu fighting them off and then he split his chakra up 13 different ways between himself and 12 clone. And to top it all off Kurama was sucking out his chakra for an certain(unknown) amount of time shortly after Naruto got KCM.
> 
> Basically in a tl;dr we didn't really see a full power KCM Naruto during the war. We've seen the feats his clones can pull off and to make it worst a clone of Naruto didn't have much chakra left  and yet when Kurama chose to give Naruto some said clone made a bunch of clones while the whole first row of clones made Chou Oodama Rasengans in order to stop Madara's Mokuton(not to mention he can still use SM). A Full powered Naruto is a very dangerous character that some people underrate so yeah Hebi Sasuke is gonna get his ass kicked seven ways to Sunday




And @SSM, Sasuke hasn't been discussed to hang on KCM Naruto's "tier", but not only has he been compared to SM and MS users in tier, which is already insane, but as well as the strongest of the previous generation of Kage.


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## Sadgoob (May 11, 2015)

Plus I'm confused. Is this about Hebi Sasuke vs 3rd Rakage?

Because a base clone went SM for two seconds and beat that guy.

Not exactly the same thing as 100% KCM Naruto.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Naruto was training on his KCM for god knows how long, left out and constantly used KCM to run towards the war zone until he met up with A+Tsunade. He then used KCM during that bout with A, kept it up until he met with the white Zetsu clones in an army squad. He then used multiple jutsu fighting them off and then he split his chakra up 13 different ways between himself and 12 clone. And to top it all off Kurama was sucking out his chakra for an certain(unknown) amount of time shortly after Naruto got KCM.
> 
> Basically in a tl;dr we didn't really see a full power KCM Naruto during the war. We've seen the feats his clones can pull off and to make it worst a clone of Naruto didn't have much chakra left  and yet when Kurama chose to give Naruto some said clone made a bunch of clones while the whole first row of clones made Chou Oodama Rasengans in order to stop Madara's Mokuton(not to mention he can still use SM). A Full powered Naruto is a very dangerous character that some people underrate so yeah Hebi Sasuke is gonna get his ass kicked seven ways to Sunday



I love how the tl;dr segment is longer than the stuff before it.


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## Dr. White (May 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I love how the tl;dr segment is longer than the stuff before it.



        .


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Spite thread 
Sasukw gets his ass handed to him
Naruto neg diffs


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## Reznor (May 12, 2015)

Dr. White said:


> **
> 
> 
> Rocky said:
> ...



 

.


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## Bonly (May 12, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Dr. White said:
> 
> 
> > Rocky said:
> ...





.
**


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## Empathy (May 12, 2015)

Onoki and the Sandaime Raikage aren't on the same level as KCM Naruto.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

@empathy 
They might be weaker but they are certainly on the same level 
KCM naruto can't even harm the sandiame so I don't see how you can just say they aren't on the same level 

The hebi sasuke is the one who is clearly a tier or 2 below everyone mentioned in this post


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Onoki and the Sandaime Raikage aren't on the same level as KCM Naruto.


The Sandaime Raikage can fight Biju to a standstill, tank every attack besides his own, gave KCM Naruto trouble, and fight an army of 10,000 ninja for three days and nights. Onoki defeated 25 of Madara's Mokuton Bushins with ease, could wipe out armies, and was recognized as the strongest of the War Arc Kage. Both are so far above Hebi Sasuke its not even funny.

Hebi Sasuke was extremely strong the _first_ half of Part II. The second, he barely breaks the Low Kage bracket.


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## Ghost (May 12, 2015)

Sasuke low diff. Naruto might push him to mid diff.


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## Empathy (May 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @empathy
> They might be weaker but they are certainly on the same level
> KCM naruto can't even harm the sandiame so I don't see how you can just say they aren't on the same level



He certainly has the firepower to harm him; he just can't one-shot him. Even _Sennin_ Naruto had the firepower to hurt the far more durable Kyuubi (not in one shot, mind you), albeit that was within their mind battle. What exactly puts them on KCM Naruto's level? Keep in mind, I think this incarnation of Naruto to be Minato's superior. Onoki and the Sandaime Raikage would get beaten by SM Naruto in my eyes, let alone KCM (though, I don't really think they're that far apart to be honest).



> The hebi sasuke is the one who is clearly a tier or 2 below everyone mentioned in this post



This is just a statement, not a strong argument.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Sandaime Raikage can fight Biju to a standstill,



There have been multiple high tiers who outright defeated wild bijuu. It's not a KCM Naruto-level feat. KCM Naruto is stronger than Bee, who would defeat the Sandaime Raikage since he isn't fighting a wild bijuu that would dilly-dally before using _Bijuudama_. 



> tank every attack besides his own, gave KCM Naruto trouble,



Giving someone trouble and being on the same level aren't synonymous. I certainly think Onoki would give Naruto trouble. He just wouldn't win and they wouldn't be on the same level. The extent of any, "_trouble_," the Sandaime really gave KCM Naruto was merely Naruto chasing him around and putting him flat on his back by injuring him with one of his jutsu. I'd hardly call Naruto getting him on the third time's the charm, any real trouble.



> and fight an army of 10,000 ninja for three days and nights.



And die. I'm aware the guy's impressive and there's no need to just list a broad character overview. I've read the manga and I'm entirely aware of what he's done. What of that exactly makes him one of KCM Naruto's peers?



> Onoki defeated 25 of Madara's Mokuton Bushins with ease,



He wiped them out with the help of the other four Kage, and not with ease. 



> could wipe out armies,



I wasn't aware that Onoki and KCM Naruto were the only two high tiers with that capability. Hebi Sasuke could do the same with fodder crowd control, as could many high tiers.



> and was recognized as the strongest of the War Arc Kage.



Onoki also nearly got killed multiple times trying to fight high Kage (he would have without help). KCM Naruto is stronger than A, Gaara, Mei, and Tsunade as well; merely crossing that threshold doesn't put them on the same caliber.



> Both are so far above Hebi Sasuke its not even funny.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke was extremely strong the _first_ half of Part II. The second, he barely breaks the Low Kage bracket.



Keep in mind I never mentioned Sasuke's name in that post. I just said that Onoki and the Sandaime Raikage aren't on KCM Naruto's level, so the point of the spite thread is lost on me. Really, if you need to extrapolate their levels to something higher than they aren't, it's more a sign of argument weakness than it is you trying to prove a point. No one made KCM Naruto vs. Hebi Sasuke thread, because the consensus of the outcome is obvious. But in the Sandaime Raikage or Onoki vs. Hebi Sasuke threads, you have legitimate discussion among multiple people whose opinions are taken seriously in the BD (this not being isolated to one zealot).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 12, 2015)

Empathy said:


> There have been multiple high tiers who outright defeated wild bijuu. It's not a KCM Naruto-level feat. KCM Naruto is stronger than Bee, who would defeat the Sandaime Raikage since he isn't fighting a wild bijuu that would dilly-dally before using _Bijuudama_.


No. The manga flat out said that the Sandaime Raikage was the _only_ shinobi capable of fighting a Biju to a stand still. Outside of Hashirama and Madara, the Sandaime Raikage was the only person ho ever accomplished said feat. Gyuki himself praised the Sandaime Raikage's power, and its HIGHLY likely he took a Bijudama from Gyuki head on and survived. 

You like downplaying characters like this for Sasuke.


> Giving someone trouble and being on the same level aren't synonymous. I certainly think Onoki would give Naruto trouble. He just wouldn't win and they wouldn't be on the same level. The extent of any, "_trouble_," the Sandaime really gave KCM Naruto was merely Naruto chasing him around and putting him flat on his back by injuring him with one of his jutsu. I'd hardly call Naruto getting him on the third time's the charm, any real trouble.


KCM Naruto used his best jutsu, the strongest Futon jutsu in the entire manga, and it FAILED. The Sandaime Raikage survived said technique without a single scratch as Naruto himself said. Naruto couldn't beat him with pure power, he had to strategize on a hypothesis. 




> And die. I'm aware the guy's impressive and there's no need to just list a broad character overview. I've read the manga and I'm entirely aware of what he's done. What of that exactly makes him one of KCM Naruto's peers?


Since he went toe to toe with KCM Naruto and survived his best attack at the time without any damage? And Naruto had to be rescued so he wasn't skewered or knocked out.




> He wiped them out with the help of the other four Kage, and not with ease.


All Tsunade did was replenish his chakra. It was HIS jutsu that wiped out all twenty-five, since he had already neutralized both his five AND the five A were fighting with his weight increasing jutsu.




> I wasn't aware that Onoki and KCM Naruto were the only two high tiers with that capability. Hebi Sasuke could do the same with fodder crowd control, as could many high tiers.


Hebi Sasuke defeated the lowest level of fodder, Oto Ninja. Onoki could wipe out thousands White Zetsus (stronger than the average jonin), and KCM Naruto turned the entire tide of the War all on his own. Hebi Sasuke is no where near the level.




> Onoki also nearly got killed multiple times trying to fight high Kage (he would have without help). KCM Naruto is stronger than A, Gaara, Mei, and Tsunade as well; merely crossing that threshold doesn't put them on the same caliber.


Uh no. Madara even said Onoki was doing the best of the bunch. And Madara is far above high Kage in the first place. Onoki resisted the Flower World and neutralized it on his own. Onoki, upon getting his chakra replenished, wiped out all twenty-five of Madara's Susanoo Wood Clones. That feat alone puts him above Hebi Sasuke.




> Keep in mind I never mentioned Sasuke's name in that post. I just said that Onoki and the Sandaime Raikage aren't on KCM Naruto's level, so the point of the spite thread is lost on me. Really, if you need to extrapolate their levels to something higher than they aren't, it's more a sign of argument weakness than it is you trying to prove a point. No one made KCM Naruto vs. Hebi Sasuke thread, because the consensus of the outcome is obvious. But in the Sandaime Raikage or Onoki vs. Hebi Sasuke threads, you have legitimate discussion among multiple people whose opinions are taken seriously in the BD (this not being isolated to one zealot).


Except there is no 'legitimate discussion' on either. Hebi Sasuke's power is being far overrated by you and others, Empathy. The Sandaime Raikage did a feat the manga said that no one else has ever done. Onoki wiped out twenty-five of Madara's Susanoo Wood Clones with ease. Both have been portrayed as far stronger than Hebi Sasuke, and both have better feats than Hebi Sasuke.


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## Bonly (May 12, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No. The manga flat out said that the Sandaime Raikage was the _only_ shinobi capable of fighting a Biju to a stand still. Outside of Hashirama and Madara, the Sandaime Raikage was the only person ho ever accomplished said feat. Gyuki himself praised the Sandaime Raikage's power,



This is the closest I could find it and yet doesn't say that the Sandaime is the *ONLY* shinobi capable of fighting a Bijuu to a stand still, it just mentions that he has done it. So can you show me the scan that does says the Sandaime is the *ONLY* shinobi capable of fighting a Bijuu to a stand still? 

Also Hashi and Madara never fought a Bijuu to a stand still like the Sandaime, they actually outright won by either suppressing Kurama with Genjutsu and Mokuton(Rinnegan if you count revived Madara), and Deidara had knocked out Isobu with one of his bombs so yeah.



> and its HIGHLY likely he took a Bijudama from Gyuki head on and survived.


 
Naruto "How did you make that wound on his chest"

Gyuki said "Wasn't it my Bijuudama? NO...What was it again"




> KCM Naruto used his best jutsu, the strongest Futon jutsu in the entire manga, and it FAILED. The Sandaime Raikage survived said technique without a single scratch as Naruto himself said. Naruto couldn't beat him with pure power, he had to strategize on a hypothesis.



Sandaime was an Edo Tensei so yeah he "survived" like an other Edo Tensei ninja would have, only difference is that he got up fast then most would have but that doesn't mean an alive Sandaime would've done the same so lets not act like living Sandaime would.



> All Tsunade did was replenish his chakra. It was HIS jutsu that wiped out all twenty-five, since he had already neutralized both his five AND the five A were fighting with his weight increasing jutsu.



Her giving him chakra is why his jutsu was able to do that, no Tsunade means no destroyed Susanoo clones.



> Hebi Sasuke defeated the lowest level of fodder, Oto Ninja. Onoki could wipe out thousands White Zetsus (stronger than the average jonin), and KCM Naruto turned the entire tide of the War all on his own. Hebi Sasuke is no where near the level.



Onoki is no where near the level of what Naruto did and what Onoki can potentially do is something that Sasuke can potentially do which is beat alot of fodder.


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

Most Edo tensei would have been damaged and would be in regen process if FRS hit them
Which by consequence would have them sealed 

Notice when he actually got properly damaged by his technique he was sealed 

Odd how that didn't happen with FRS

But sure lets de hype a guy who got a chapter called the limit of FRS


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## Sorin (May 12, 2015)

KCM Naruto stomps. Hell one clone of Naruto after fighting for a day would neg diff hebi Sasuke.


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## Zef (May 12, 2015)

Is this a joke?


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## UchihaX28 (May 12, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke wins with Kirin because apparently he's strong enough to do so against Sandaime Raikage. 

 I honestly can't comprehend why someone would think Hebi Sasuke can approach KCM Naruto's tier when Hebi Sasuke was outclassed by Sick Itachi, who can also be classified as a Close/Mid-range fighter until Tsukyomi's effects played a role.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

KCM-Naruto's strength makes no sense to me at all. Given the amount of Kurama chakra he took from the beast he should be equivalent in physical areas and raw chakra to the higher tailed forms. Yet he vastly underperformed in these regards to even KN4. KN4's Chakra-Shroud was infinitely better than KCM-Naruto's, it could create body doubles, manipulate the chakra arms to a much greater degree than KCM-Naruto, and could take a Extended-Ksunagi sword to the chest w/o a scratch, while KCM-Naruto on the other hand was getting hurt by Ukataka's bubbles and shit. In terms of speed KCM-Naruto started out being compared to Minato's Hiraishin speed, which makes sense, but than in actual battle he could never use this speed effectively and honestly didn't even show the blitz potential that lower end tailed states like KN1-3, which blitz'd Orochimaru did let alone the higher end tailed states. And in terms of raw chakra power, he showed nowhere near the massive shockwaves KN4 could generate, let alone even what KN3 did to Kabuto and the heaven and earth bridge. His fire-power was also stunted in comparison to KN4, because he couldn't use TBB in KCM. And in terms of regenerative capability he was also vastly inferior to any of the Tailed States, as he couldn't quickly regen a twisted ankle. while KN4 regenerated his entire body being constantly skinned alive. Than the capabilities of his clones are all over the place, because we have Dat-Clone taking on Kages successful, albeit with help but still, while we have other clones failing to defeat Kimi, Puppet-less Chiyo, and a BZ whose fucking around with root attack, to name just a few examples.

So to be honest, KCM-Naruto is so nonsensical, PIS'd, and PNJ'd, that I can imagine him randomly fluctuating in strength from stomping Hebi-Sasuke to loose decisively. KCM just made that little sense in my opinion. Or to put it another way logically KCM-Naruto should stomp Hebi-Sasuke, and even a few clones should beat him comfortably, but logically KCM-Naruto should have stomped Itachi and at least performed whole heck of a-lot better again the Edo-Jins and Nagato, as well as his clones stomping people like Kimi. So I just don't know


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

This is bad, and you should feel bad, SSM.


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## Reznor (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hebi Sasuke wins with Kirin because apparently he's strong enough to do so against Sandaime Raikage.
> 
> I honestly can't comprehend why someone would think Hebi Sasuke can approach KCM Naruto's tier when Hebi Sasuke was outclassed by Sick Itachi, who can also be classified as a Close/Mid-range fighter until Tsukyomi's effects played a role.



Naruto always acts the tranquil fury upon revealing a new power, but then its hype wears off quick.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

I guess this is the first time I see Reznor here! Interesting. 

----

Is it Kirin what makes Hebi Sasuke way overwanked to this degree?  
Or did he show something extraordinary that I haven't payed attention to it?


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

KCM Naruto probably should have been Biju Mode Naruto without his full-formed avatar, but I only say that because Naruto had pretty consistent feats in that form.


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

@empathy SM naruto isn't doing squat to sandaime without knowledge of his weak point 
I don't think Sm can do much to onoki either 
Also in the manga naruto puts his KCM far above SM go back to the Nagato fight 
He says am far stronger now 

So no I don't think Sm is implied to be on the same level as the strongest Raikage


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## TheGreen1 (May 13, 2015)

I don't see how Sasuke without a Mangekyou even has a chance of scratching Naruto's headband on Naruto's worst day in KCM.

KCM Clone uses Chakra arms and beats Sasuke to death while eating ramen. Naruto clone negative difficulty.

And for Added Kek,

Let's say this is KCM Naruto from The Last. Let's see how long Sasuke last's against that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

Sasuke wins.
Genjutsu gg
kirin gg


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## Kai (May 13, 2015)

Is this place mod free now?


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Goose only appears if it's me who is making those type of threads.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> KCM Naruto probably should have been Biju Mode Naruto without his full-formed avatar, but I only say that because Naruto had pretty consistent feats in that form.


Yeah it's almost like Kishi intended that, but than was like shit Naruto would own everyone, so i better depower him nonsensically.


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## Reznor (May 13, 2015)

I don't actually even believe KCM Naruto is faster than Raikage. He just outspeed him once. It's not as though someone faster will always win a speed contest.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2015)

Reznor said:


> I don't actually even believe KCM Naruto is faster than Raikage. He just outspeed him once. It's not as though someone faster will always win a speed contest.



Actually dodging someone =/= being faster. We've seen examples of slower shinobi dodging faster opponents.

Although I believe the premise of that encounter was to establish that Naruto somehow surpassed his dad or A or some other BS. That is why everyone acknowledges him to be faster than A.

Although Naruto not being able to react to Amaterasu the way A did kind of leaves that open to debate.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Narudo does not have to dodge when that fodder jutsu can do nothing to him.


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## Ashi (May 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Narudo does not have to dodge when that fodder jutsu can do nothing to him.



He had his guard up for one of his punches and he still felt that


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2015)

Reznor said:


> I don't actually even believe KCM Naruto is faster than Raikage. He just outspeed him once. It's not as though someone faster will always win a speed contest.


Naruto reacted and dodged A's fastest punch. Manga made it quite clear KCM Naruto was faster than A. He just squandered most of his chakra during the war so he couldn't replicate the feat.


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## Ashi (May 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto reacted and dodged A's fastest punch. Manga made it quite clear KCM Naruto was faster than A. He just squandered most of his chakra during the war so he couldn't replicate the feat.



What about all those other times when A kept up with him

What he grows some balls and all of a sudden.. "He's the fastest thing aliiiiive?"


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## Ghost (May 13, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Although Naruto not being able to react to Amaterasu the way A did kind of leaves that open to debate.



Naruto was treated like shit til the Rikudo power up.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

Naruto is not consistently faster than A until BM imo. KCM Naruto outside of that one time didn't really use the body flicker.

Ever.


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## Ghost (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> KCM Naruto outside of that one time didn't really use the body flicker.
> 
> Ever.



Thanks to terrible writing.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> What about all those other times when A kept up with him
> 
> What he grows some balls and all of a sudden.. "He's the fastest thing aliiiiive?"


Its because Naruto was consistently holding back against A. The point of Naruto dodging A's fastest punch was to replicate what Minato did.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

Actually A was the one holding back against Naruto.

Why would Naruto hold back against A. Was he not trying to speed past him?


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## Ashi (May 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its because Naruto was consistently holding back against A. The point of Naruto dodging A's fastest punch was to replicate what Minato did.



I'll take it for what it's worth: Symbolism

I don' think it qualifies as a heat of battle kid of feat


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## Kyu (May 13, 2015)

> KCM Naruto outside of that one time didn't really use the body flicker.
> 
> Ever.


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## Raiken (May 13, 2015)

This thread is a stomp
Naruto solos
/gg


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

I'm sorry, I meant _after_ that one time.

He used it against Kisame there and used it throughout the A skirmish, but after that?

Nope.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Actually A was the one holding back against Naruto.
> 
> Why would Naruto hold back against A. Was he not trying to speed past him?


Since he didn't want to hurt the leader of the Alliance. And A went in with bloodlust. Remember, he resolved to kill Naruto to prevent Akatsuki from getting Kurama.

The manga made it clear that Naruto is faster.



TensaXZangetsu said:


> I'll take it for what it's worth: Symbolism
> 
> I don' think it qualifies as a heat of battle kid of feat


Its not just symbolism. The only other person who replicated that feat was Minato. THe moment Naruto did so was the moment KCM Naruto proved he was faster than A.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since he didn't want to hurt the leader of the Alliance. And A went in with bloodlust. Remember, he resolved to kill Naruto to prevent Akatsuki from getting Kurama.



When A stopped holding back (ie. used v2), the "fight" ended after Naruto evaded just one flicker.

A had been holding back his full power (or full speed) at every point before that. 

Don't get me wrong, I know Naruto wasn't going full offensive either. That said, I doubt he was holding back his speed at any time. 



> The manga made it clear that Naruto is faster..



I know it did. 

My problem is that it wasn't consistent. Can you point out another instance that Naruto used that flicker? 

He was nerfed so he wouldn't be too powerful.

Just a case of bad writing.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> When A stopped holding back (ie. used v2), the "fight" ended after Naruto evaded just one flicker.
> 
> A had been holding back his full power (or full speed) at every point before that.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I know Naruto wasn't going full offensive either. That said, I doubt he was holding back his speed at any time.


And with that one body flicker, Naruto proved he was faster than A. Both of them felt each other out but when they stopped holding back speedwise, Naruto's speed was far greater.




> I know it did.
> 
> My problem is that it wasn't consistent. Can you point out another instance that Naruto used that flicker?
> 
> ...


Naruto blitzed the Sandaime Raikage with a close-range Rasenshuriken to keep him from dodging before he could even turn around.


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## Rocky (May 13, 2015)

They were not feeling each other out. Naruto was trying to run past him as best he could, which is why he was saying shit like _"one more time."_

As for the 3rd, I'm pretty sure Naruto tagged him by redirecting the Rasenshuriken multiple times.

He didn't just flicker up to him and throw it at his face.


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## Ashi (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They were not feeling each other out. Naruto was trying to run past him as best he could, which is why he was saying shit like _"one more time."_
> 
> As for the 3rd, I'm pretty sure Naruto tagged him by redirecting the Rasenshuriken multiple times.
> 
> He didn't just flicker up to him and throw it at his face.



He did in Muffin's, SSm's and Hussain's manga


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

I really don't know how people can argue KCM''s speed was not inconsistent as fuck. On one hand he is moving so fast that Ei and B can't keep track of him, and on the other hand he's being matched blow for blow by Itachi, needs tricks to land his attack on Sandaime-Raikage, was literally being tripped up by BZ's roots, and being bossed around by the Edo Jin. It's absolutely silly writing. Given his speed feat against Ei he should have blitz'd every enemy he came up against, even likely MS-Obito, considering his comparison to the Yellow-Flash who outsped Obito, instead he can't deal with relative fodder like Kimi


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> He did in Muffin's, SSm's and Hussain's manga



Narudo solos. 
_"one more time."_

tho I don't know what do I have to do with all of this. lol 



Turrin said:


> I really don't know how people can argue KCM''s speed was not inconsistent as fuck. On one hand he is moving so fast that Ei and B can't keep track of him, and on the other hand he's being matched blow for blow by Itachi, needs tricks to land his attack on Sandaime-Raikage, was literally being tripped up by BZ's roots, and being bossed around by the Edo Jin. It's absolutely silly writing. Given his speed feat against Ei he should have blitz'd every enemy he came up against, even likely MS-Obito, considering his comparison to the Yellow-Flash who outsped Obito, instead he can't deal with relative fodder like Kimi



speed is too broken, and that's why Kishi keeps nerffing it.


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## Ashi (May 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Narudo solos.
> Link removed
> 
> tho I don't know what do I have to do with all of this. lol
> ...



Implying you, of all people, would pass up any chance to wank the Orange Jesus


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They were not feeling each other out. Naruto was trying to run past him as best he could, which is why he was saying shit like _"one more time."_
> 
> As for the 3rd, I'm pretty sure Naruto tagged him by redirecting the Rasenshuriken multiple times.
> 
> He didn't just flicker up to him and throw it at his face.


And Naruto was still holding back against A. When they both dropped the pretenses, Naruto's speed surpassed A's. 

And Saindaime Raikage dodged Naruto caught the Rasenshuriken and shunshined right as the Raikage landed and hit him before he could dturn around.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Implying you, of all people, would pass up any chance to wank the Orange Jesus




I love Narudo, but I usually lean more to wank Minato. At least Narudo's "prerogative" is given to him a lot of times usually. On the other hand, poor Minato is dragged down to be compared to the like of Tobirama, itachi, sasori and all that crap. Also, his fighting style is more fun to debate about. 

So yeah.....


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## Eliyua23 (May 13, 2015)

With Naruto KCM speed feat he should've blitzed through every enemy until Rinnegan Madara , Nagato an immobile target shouldve been lunch food for Naruto and so should Itachi , but he had to dumb him down for PIS bullshit.

I also think he dumbed down KCM so he can keep wanking sage mode 


It really shouldve been KCM Naruto > Itachi, Nagato, Minato

but in reality he didn't actually surpass them until he achieved BM


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

lol, Narudo with SM was already stronger than itachi. KCM Naruto who actually wants to fight would crush itachi.
However, he just wanted to talk to him. U_U

But yeah, he's weaker than Minato and Nagato in his KCM.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 13, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> With Naruto KCM speed feat he should've blitzed through every enemy until Rinnegan Madara , Nagato an immobile target shouldve been lunch food for Naruto and so should Itachi , but he had to dumb him down for PIS bullshit.
> 
> I also think he dumbed down KCM so he can keep wanking sage mode
> 
> ...


KCM Naruto _did_ split his chakra 13 times over (and the amount of his own chakra for it was eaten by Kurama) when he went to hit every battle field with a clone. He weakened himself so he wasn't at his full power.


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## Eliyua23 (May 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, Narudo with SM was already stronger than itachi. KCM Naruto who actually wants to fight would crush itachi.
> However, he just wanted to talk to him. U_U
> 
> But yeah, he's weaker than Minato and Nagato in his KCM.



1. I was talking KCM

2. Sage Mode Naruto was at most a bit stronger maybe equal but certainly not on another level than Itachi , shit he was stated to be equal to MS Sasuke who didn't really have better feats than Itachi.


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## Eliyua23 (May 13, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> KCM Naruto _did_ split his chakra 13 times over (and the amount of his own chakra for it was eaten by Kurama) when he went to hit every battle field with a clone. He weakened himself so he wasn't at his full power.




His clone was still capable of taking on Kage level opponents and overwhelm them , shit his SM clone outperformed KCM in real body , and even despite low chakra he could've dominated the battle if he mimicked his speed feats against A and Kisame , Nagato was basically a sitting duck.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> 1. I was talking KCM
> 
> 2. Sage Mode Naruto was at most a bit stronger maybe equal but certainly not on another level than Itachi , shit he was stated to be equal to MS Sasuke who didn't really have better feats than Itachi.



1- I know. 
2- He was never stated to be equal to him. It was stated he's stronger than Sasuke. 

Regardless, itachi does not stand a chance against KCM Narudo. SM Naruto is as far as he can get.
As for MS Sasuke, his feats is around itachi's feats level.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

I still say SM-Naruto was stronger than KCM-Naruto. People can say that doesn't make logical sense and I agree, but KCM-Naruto's poor performance don't make logical sense. I'm of course talking War-Arc SM though, and not Pain-Arc SM.


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## Sorin (May 13, 2015)

When KCM Naruto's shared chakra cloaks ware the only reason the alliance wasn't pasted by tenpechi and Obito's/Madara's huge katons and overall kept them relevant in the fight, it's kinda hard to see how SM Naruto is overall stronger.


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## StarWanderer (May 13, 2015)

This is a missmatch. KCM Naruto slaughterstomps. Fatality.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

Sorin said:


> When KCM Naruto's shared chakra cloaks ware the only reason the alliance wasn't pasted by tenpechi and Obito's/Madara's huge katons and overall kept them relevant in the fight, it's kinda hard to see how SM Naruto is overall stronger.


Umm...BM-Naruto gave them the cloaks.


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## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I still say SM-Naruto was stronger than KCM-Naruto. People can say that doesn't make logical sense and I agree, but KCM-Naruto's poor performance don't make logical sense. I'm of course talking War-Arc SM though, and not Pain-Arc SM.



 The main advantage I can see KCM Naruto having is far higher chakra reserves and possibly a faster Shunshin.

 However, I agree. SM Naruto shouldn't be considerably slower than KCM Naruto and his reactions along with Frog Kata's gives him an edge compared to KCM Naruto, who tends to be more of a Close-Range fighter.

 @Sorin

 Please, those attacks weren't that strong. We've seen how KCM Naruto received damage from Obito's headbutt. He really cannot handle blunt forces that well.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Umm...BM-Naruto gave them the cloaks.



Irrelevant. He was still able to control thost chakra or to give it away in his KCM. Him being in his
BM at the time does not have anything to do with that feat.


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## Turrin (May 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The main advantage I can see KCM Naruto having is far higher chakra reserves and possibly a faster Shunshin.
> 
> However, I agree. SM Naruto shouldn't be considerably slower than KCM Naruto and his reactions along with Frog Kata's gives him an edge compared to KCM Naruto, who tends to be more of a Close-Range fighter.


Does he because SM-Naruto created a much larger FRS.



Hussain said:


> Irrelevant. He was still able to control thost chakra or to give it away in his KCM. Him being in his
> BM at the time does not have anything to do with that feat.


Yah know except the quantity of chakra which is what allowed him to give so many cloaks.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2015)

It's not like if he's giving them all of his chakra or something. Especially since he showed in KCM to be able to
control all of that chakra.


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## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Does he because SM-Naruto created a much larger FRS.



 I don't necessarily see why KCM Naruto wouldn't be capable of doing the same.

 We also have to remember KCM Naruto's reserves depends on Kurama's "obedience". KCM Naruto can easily use all of Kurama's chakra which is by far superior to SM Naruto's reserves if Kurama chooses not to absorb all of Naruto's chakra.


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## Icegaze (May 14, 2015)

I think the topic has deviated for the ungodly stomp KCm Naruto delivers to hebi sauce who is a solid 2 tiers below 
I mean hebi sauce who is already much weaker than MS sauce who KCM Naruto beats more often than not 

mods aren't on this thread. the fact that it hasn't been locked. yet madara vs hashirama thread was deemed unbalanced.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't necessarily see why KCM Naruto wouldn't be capable of doing the same.
> 
> We also have to remember KCM Naruto's reserves depends on Kurama's "obedience". KCM Naruto can easily use all of Kurama's chakra which is by far superior to SM Naruto's reserves if Kurama chooses not to absorb all of Naruto's chakra.



I consider that BM Naruto, once Kurama starts cooperating.


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## Kai (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Does he because SM-Naruto created a much larger FRS.


Why would one feel the need to take away or remove that capacity from KCM Naruto after seeing that? SM Naruto made the huge FRS after spending the most time creating it compared to any past FRS, but I never thought of subtracting anything from KCM Naruto. It is what it is, but what it isn't is any sort of implication towards Naruto's KCM state.

KCM Naruto can perform Bijuudama in the palm of his hands unlike SM Naruto, and can also create variants of FRS unlike SM Naruto.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2015)

Did notKCM  Narudo use a huge FRS to combine it with Sasuke's Enton Arrow?


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## Sorin (May 14, 2015)

Yes he did. 

It was as big as Gamakichi iirc.


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## Reznor (May 14, 2015)

SM and KCM have their pros and cons. He just went with SM for a specific manuever against Raikagenaut.
In the Kakashi/Gai/Naruto v Obito battle, he had both modes going IIRC (one with a clone) because of that fact.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> Why would one feel the need to take away or remove that capacity from KCM Naruto after seeing that? SM Naruto made the huge FRS after spending the most time creating it compared to any past FRS, but I never thought of subtracting anything from KCM Naruto. It is what it is, but what it isn't is any sort of implication towards Naruto's KCM state.
> 
> KCM Naruto can perform Bijuudama in the palm of his hands unlike SM Naruto, and can also create variants of FRS unlike SM Naruto.



1) I take it away from KCM-Naurto, because "KCM" is a term conventionally used to refer to Naruto before BM. Naruto after getting BM, is referred to as BM-Naruto. So while getting BM also improved KCM, it's conventionally considered a different iteration of the character or at the very least that is the iteration of the Naruto character i'm referring to here.

2) KCM-Naruto can not make a TBB in the palm of his hand unless you mean mini-TBB, which is better than regular Rasengan or Oddoma-Rasengan how exactly?

3) KCM-Naruto did show a wider range of Rasengan variants, but never once did Naruto show he was capable of defeating someone thanks to this "added-versatility" that he couldn't otherwise beat with his previous Rasengan Variants. The problem is Kishi gave Naruto all these new variations, but they don't amount to any real difference in power, because they all do the same thing and are not more powerful than the Rasengan Variants Naruto had previously.


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I consider that BM Naruto, once Kurama starts cooperating.



 Except that isn't BM Naruto. That's just like saying V1 Bee is BM Bee just because the Bijuu cooperates with the host.

 Even then, prior to having full control over Kurama, Kurama still cooperated and chose not to constantly feed off of Naruto's chakra during the duration of the war. This is obvious when something such as making clones was implied to kill him yet KCM Naruto still managed to make a dozen other clones when it was clear that after his battle with Itachi, he was completely fatigued. That also doesn't include KCM Naruto being able to muscle through a full battle against Base and V2 Jin despite having already used Clones for extended periods of time.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Except that isn't BM Naruto. That's just like saying V1 Bee is BM Bee just because the Bijuu cooperates with the host.


Except it is. KCM is a mode Naruto could use before Kurama cooperated with him. Or to put it simply the Fannon term to stand for Naruto before Bijuu cooperation was KCM-Naruto.



> Even then, prior to having full control over Kurama, Kurama still cooperated and chose not to constantly feed off of Naruto's chakra during the duration of the war. This is obvious when something such as making clones was implied to kill him yet KCM Naruto still managed to make a dozen other clones when it was clear that after his battle with Itachi, he was completely fatigued. That also doesn't include KCM Naruto being able to muscle through a full battle against Base and V2 Jin despite having already used Clones for extended periods of time.


That's not giving Naruto chakra it's just not taking it away. Assuming of course Kurama wasn't leeching chakra and the KB thing isn't just an inconsistency that are very common in the war. 

Honestly I don't see the problem, we are just using different terminology to talk about different incarnations of Naruto


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## UchihaX28 (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Except it is. KCM is a mode Naruto could use before Kurama cooperated with him. Or to put it simply the Fannon term to stand for Naruto before Bijuu cooperation was KCM-Naruto.



 just fine

 No. Kurama refers to it as a completely different state. That is BM Naruto. The weaker mode he uses is KCM Naruto.




> That's not giving Naruto chakra it's just not taking it away. Assuming of course Kurama wasn't leeching chakra and the KB thing isn't just an inconsistency that are very common in the war.



 Actually no. Naruto is capable of using Kurama's Chakra even back then in Part 1 and considering this time, Naruto won the tug of war, he can practically steal as much of Kurama's Chakra as he wants provided Kurama doesn't retaliate by stealing all of his chakra. There's also the fact that Hachibi states he taps into Kurama's Chakra in-exchange of his own Chakra.


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## Kai (May 14, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 1) I take it away from KCM-Naurto, because "KCM" is a term conventionally used to refer to Naruto before BM. Naruto after getting BM, is referred to as BM-Naruto. So while getting BM also improved KCM, it's conventionally considered a different iteration of the character or at the very least that is the iteration of the Naruto character i'm referring to here.


Personally don't think KCM changed in power. But thanks for clarifying on the iteration.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> KCM-Naruto can not make a TBB in the palm of his hand unless you mean mini-TBB, which is better than regular Rasengan or Oddoma-Rasengan how exactly?


It's even better than FRS, considering Naruto opted for Bijuudama after FRS failed against A the 3rd.


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## Ashi (May 14, 2015)

In the video games his BM mode without the fox was called Kurama link mode


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Kai said:


> It's even better than FRS, considering Naruto opted for Bijuudama after FRS failed against A the 3rd.


You mean the TBB he failed to create? Naruto could only use Mini-TBB in KCM form.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2015)

Kyubi forms are a mess.

When Naruto first beat the fox and stole its chakra, people called that form "KCM" or "RM." When he started cooperating with Kurama and grew a cloak, that was Biju Mode, regardless of whether or not he was using the full fox avatar.

But then Minato comes along. Minato's appearance resembled KCM Naruto's, but he could form an avatar, so there's an inconsistency. There was also the Last, where Naruto himself could form a fox avatar but _didn't_ form a cloak.

Who knows at this point.


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## TheGreen1 (May 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I think the topic has deviated for the ungodly stomp KCm Naruto delivers to hebi sauce who is a solid 2 tiers below
> I mean hebi sauce who is already much weaker than MS sauce who KCM Naruto beats more often than not
> 
> mods aren't on this thread. the fact that it hasn't been locked. yet madara vs hashirama thread was deemed unbalanced.



I'm in agreement with all you have said here. KCM Naruto babyshakes Hebi Sasuke who has nothing that can threaten KCM Naruto. Nothing. A KCM CLONE would shove his foot up Hebi Sasuke's ass so far that Sauce would throw up a sandal.



Rocky said:


> Kyubi forms are a mess.
> 
> When Naruto first beat the fox and stole its chakra, people called that form "KCM" or "RM." When he started cooperating with Kurama and grew a cloak, that was Biju Mode, regardless of whether or not he was using the full fox avatar.
> 
> ...



One thing we can all agree upon is that Hebi Sasuke has no chance against any of them.


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