# Sabo vs Luffy



## Magician (Sep 22, 2014)

Both fighters have a deadly fight to the death. Both bloodlusted.

How far does Luffy push his brother?

Scenario 2: Sabo vs Luffy and Law
Scenario 3: Sabo vs Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji


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## zoro (Sep 22, 2014)

S1) Sabo mid diff

S2) Sabo lower end of high diff

S3) Sabo high diff


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## Luke (Sep 22, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo wins with medium difficulty. 

Scenario 2: Sabo wins with high difficulty. 

Scenario 3: Sabo wins with extremely high difficulty.


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## MYJC (Sep 22, 2014)

My Sabo wank sense is tingling. 


S1 - Sabo very high diff (Luffy is underestimated 'round here)
S2 - Luffy and Law very high diff
S3 - M3 mid-high diff


*waits for posts about how Sabo would low diff the entire Straw Hat crew*


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## Kaiser (Sep 22, 2014)

S1: Sabo mid difficulty
S2: Sabo high difficulty
S3: Could go either way


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 22, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo low-diffs.
Scenario 2: Sabo mid-diffs (lower end).
Scenario 3: Sabo mid-diffs (higher end).

Give Sabo more time with his fruit; he'll probably no-diff/low-diff each round.


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## Imagine (Sep 22, 2014)

> How far does Luffy push his brother?


About mid diff



> Scenario 2: Sabo vs Luffy and Law
> Scenario 3: Sabo vs Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji


Sabo takes both very high diff


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## Goomoonryong (Sep 22, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo wins mid-high diff.

Scenario 2: Sabo wins high-very high diff.

Scenario 3: Could go either way, but I'm leaning towards the team.


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## trance (Sep 22, 2014)

Sabo wins all three. Low for the first, mid for the second and high for the last.


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## Crocodile Atlas (Sep 22, 2014)

S1- Sabo Mid Diff

S2- Sabo High Diff

S3- Monster Trio High Diff. Zoro and Sanji should supply enough firepower on top of Luffy to bring Sabo down.


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## Canute87 (Sep 22, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Both fighters have a deadly fight to the death. Both bloodlusted.
> 
> How far does Luffy push his brother?
> 
> ...



With mera mera?


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## Gohara (Sep 22, 2014)

1. It depends on how strong Sabo is exactly.  If he's weaker than Fujitora, then I would say it could go either way, but I would lean towards Luffy winning with high to extremely high difficulty.  If he's as strong as Fujitora, it could go either way, but I would lean towards Sabo winning with high to extremely high difficulty.  If he's stronger than Fujitora, then I would say Sabo would win with no more than around high difficulty.

2. Luffy and Law win either way.  Under the same estimations as above, the difficulty would be around mid difficulty/around mid difficulty/mid to high difficulty.

3. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji either way.  Under the same estimations as above, the difficulty would be low to mid difficulty/low to mid difficulty/around mid difficulty at most.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 22, 2014)

^^^^^^^
WTF did I just read? He has to be stronger than Fujitora to beat Luffy @_@? He clearly is weaker than Fujitora since he admitted Fujitora was not serious fighting him. Being able to last against even a non-serious Admiral is above even Doflamingo capabilities, let alone little Luffy.



MYJC said:


> My Sabo wank sense is tingling.
> S1 - Sabo very high diff (Luffy is underestimated 'round here)
> S2 - Luffy and Law very high diff
> S3 - M3 mid-high diff
> ...



What!?

This may have been semi-wank filled a few chapters ago but Doffy is proving he can handle both of them just fine.

Sabo is the guy who just held his own against an Admiral for a few chapters. He can clearly do far more than Joker did against. It will be a High diff battle to take out Doffy. 

Base Sabo may have had an extreme diff fight for the duo. Current Sabo cannot lose to them at all. You are either not up to date, stubborn as hell, or lost your mind if you think otherwise.

I mean Doffy just endured one of Luffy's strongest moves with no protection. Sabo is obviously physically stronger than Doffy so he'd take it better. 

How is it wank? You *can not *make a case for Luffy&Law. Any scenario you make up in your head is delusional or filled with some excessive amount of plot protection&luck. Luffy is not handling a flaming pipe to the face, nor is he evading it. Certainly not taking a hiken that melted through hundreds of feat of stone.


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## Suit (Sep 22, 2014)

S1: Sabo, higher end of low-diff.
S2: Sabo, higher end of mid-diff.
S3: Sabo, higher end of high-diff.


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## MYJC (Sep 22, 2014)

Ryuksgelus said:


> ^^^^^^^
> WTF did I just read? He has to be stronger than Fujitora to beat Luffy @_@? He clearly is weaker than Fujitora since he admitted Fujitora was not serious fighting him. Being able to last against even a non-serious Admiral is above even Doflamingo capabilities, let alone little Luffy.
> 
> 
> ...




1. DoFlamingo could put up a fight against an Admiral. Not win, mind you, but he would not get stomped at all. 

2. Sabo being "physically stronger" than DoFlamingo is just your opinion, he doesn't have enough feats to say that for sure. Most of what we've seen from him is haki and DF powers. 

3. Luffy can't take a "flaming pipe to the face?! Only if we're pretending Luffy doesn't have CoA and is somehow incapable of dodging attacks. 


Unless you think Ace could also defeat Luffy+Law (since he had Hiken as well), then Sabo having the DF is not some kind of auto-win. Law has hax, Luffy has speed and power, and both are very good Haki users. Law/Luffy are not going to just bow down and job to Sabo because he has Ace's fruit and a steel pipe. 

Law's hax are hard enough to deal with (especially since Sabo doesn't have knowledge like DoFla does) but the combo of his hax + Luffy's strength/speed should definitely be enough to push Sabo.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 22, 2014)

MYJC  on that good weed.

Sabo beats the crap out of these scrubs.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 22, 2014)

Gohara said:


> That's not quite what I said.  I said if he's as strong as Fujitora, I would lean towards him defeating Luffy.  I did say that I would lean towards Luffy winning if Sabo is weaker than Fujitora, but I also said it could go either way.
> 
> We don't know that Sabo used any more of his own power than Fujitora used of his.  Also, he didn't necessarily say that Fujitora wasn't fighting seriously at all.  He said that he's going to force Fujitora to start being "this serious", but didn't specify what "this serious" was.
> *
> I respectfully disagree that lasting against an Admiral is above Doflamingo's and Luffy's capabilities.  *Rayleigh trained Luffy so he would be able to hold his own against an Admiral and a few other very powerful characters should an island he's on be invaded by them.  Rayleigh felt Luffy was at such a level around 6 months ago.  So far, Doflamingo has bested Luffy (although Luffy will likely defeat him by the end of this Arc- whether he's already strong enough to do that or will grow strong enough to do that is questionable).



I just don't know what series you have been reading. Even the most adamant posters who kept saying for years Luffy is more than half-way there to Admiral level stopped because it is painfully obvious them even being 1/4 the way there is being generous. 

Rayleigh only taught Luffy the basics of Haki. Mastering basics of something doesn't suddenly mean you're on the level of you're Teacher :/. Did you miss Sabo melting through hundreds of feat of rock? Fujitora summoning meteorites hundreds of feat long dwarfing the one that made Law&Doffy crap themselves? Sabo wasting Bastille? I'm going to guess that you think Bastille is like 60% as strong as Luffy or something if you truly believe Luffy would have fared any better.

I guess nothing short of Luffy being easily overwhelmed by a top tier can convince you if all these showings and more didn't by now.


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## Dr. White (Sep 22, 2014)

Sabo beats Luffy low- mid diff. (Sabo could beat Luffy mid diff with just Haki based on his performance vs Jesus/Diamante) w/ Mera Powers. Luffy's rubber body can burn, Sabo has better Haki, and his Dragon Fist seals the deal. 

Sabo wins High diff for now. Pending on how Dofla deals with them (or fails to) I may change my mind. Radio Knife, and EGG are dangerous for him, but based on his portrayal I can't see him losing here, and or being pushed to Aokiji vs Akainu levels. It would be a difficult fight to win though.

What Zoro and Sanji bring in numbers and raw power, Law made up for with pure hax, and abilities suited for better team fighting. Sabo's gonna have to work here, and because all 3 have Haki, build up damage could affect him over time. I see him winning High - Extreme diff. Depending on how he plays it he can beat them with a bit more diff than Luffy/Law, or end up being pushed to Extreme diff but taking it. This is the first scenario where team not Sabo has even decent odds at winning (barring Law landing a lucky Radio knife in scenario 2).


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## Gohara (Sep 22, 2014)

@Ryuksgelus.

While I respect your views, a lot of that is essentially you just stating your opinions and interpretations.

-I'm not sure what other posters say has to do with this.  Also, you're going by the experience of one forum.  I don't think anyone I've talked to about One Piece outside of this forum thinks that Luffy is around half way or less to Admiral level.  So, not that argumentum ad populum really matters, but it matters even less from my perspective due to that reason.

-I don't think I said Luffy is as strong as old Rayleigh, let alone in the same league as prime Rayleigh.  I said that Rayleigh trained Luffy to be capable of fending off an invasion from Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines combined.  This leads me to believe that around 6 months ago Luffy was already capable of holding his own against an Admiral, but not necessarily being able to defeat one.  It's been around 6 months since then, and he's only getting stronger.

-Law and Doflamingo destroyed that meteor without much of a problem.  Doflamingo seemed more angry than scared of Fujitora.  In fact, even after seeing that meteor he had no problem insulting Fujitora to his face and challenging him to a fight.  He also casually destroyed some of Fujitora's meteors through his Bird Cage technique.

-I don't think Luffy would have any difficulty against Bastille.

-I don't view the Admirals as being top tier (which is where I rank the Yonkou).  I view them as being more along the lines of the top Yonkou Division Commanders/Shichibukai.  So no, a Yonkou easily overwhelming Luffy wouldn't lead me to believe that an Admiral would do the same.  If an Admiral easily overwhelmed Luffy in a full fight where Luffy goes all out, then yes I would agree that said Admiral is well above Luffy's level.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 22, 2014)

Nope Mr.Gohara.

It's wrong and right. Factual vs Delusional. Insane opinions and Sane opinions. Paying attention vs. Not paying attention. Not two opposing but equally valid set of opinions and interpretations. 

Like I said, if the difference hasn't come to you now nothing short of Oda telling you to your face would get the point across. Even then you'd apparently request a DNA sample and Birth certificate just to confirm that it is really Oda speaking to you.



MYJC said:


> 1. DoFlamingo could put up a fight against an Admiral. Not win, mind you, but he would not get stomped at all.
> 
> 2. Sabo being "physically stronger" than DoFlamingo is just your opinion, he doesn't have enough feats to say that for sure. Most of what we've seen from him is haki and DF powers.
> 
> ...



1. Based on what? So you're one of those people who make excuses every time Doffy has looked bad against an Admiral then over blow scenes where he acts cocky or that kick? What objective reason do you have to believe he can stand up to Fuji who we just learned was able to take it easy even against Sabo and can summon multiple meteorites the size of Pica? He'd use Fierce Tiger crashing Doffy into a wall then cut him in half.

2. Opinion my ass. It is as clear as day. What reason do you have to not even give Sabo the benefit of the doubt? Even if they were the exact same level before the Mera fruit Sabo is the physical fighter while Doffy is more of an all rounder or Mid-ranged fighter. There is no reason at all to believe Joker can legitimately clash with an Admiral like Sabo did with is pipe. 

3. Sabo is faster. Sabo hits much harder than anything Luffy has ever taken. What universe do you live in where this unimpressive weak ass Sabo exists? There is no pretending anything. Doflamingo just overpowered Luffy's hardened arm with a hardened kick. Sabo's main skill is Hardening so it is logically better than Doffy"s on top of being stronger to begin with. Adding the pipe and fire is just overkill twice over.

4. Sabo is Ace+2 years. Do I seriously have to show you the difference between the two? Do you not frequent this site day after day? You seriously cannot tell, even without calcs, that incinerating hundreds of meters of stone takes a far greater amount of concussive force and heat than anything Ace has ever done with Hiken?

5. Except Sabo's armament Haki should actually be good enough to protect him from Shambles. Then he of course doesn't suffer from bad guy arrogance.

It's not even funny how fucking crazy you sound. This isn't two people debating. It's me and you the crazy person reading some alternative version of OP.


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## Gohara (Sep 22, 2014)

Well, if it's a matter of fact, then you're certainly more than welcome to prove all of that.  If you can, I will happily adjust my views accordingly.  If you can't, then naturally it's not factual.

What is delusional and sane in this case is subjective, and really only amounts to empty ad hominem.

Saying that nothing short of Oda telling me is an easy response that can easily be said by anyone regardless of the One Piece related debate.  It doesn't tell us anything.


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## Suit (Sep 22, 2014)

Gohara said:


> *-I don't view the Admirals as being top tier (which is where I rank the Yonkou).*



No offense, but this is absolutely blatantly wrong. Prove it?



An Admiral ("not a top-tier" apparently) took off half of Whitebeard's face in this panel. Sakazuki removed half of the face belonging to the strongest man in the world. Yes, the strongest man in the world was indeed sick and dying, but this is also the man that managed to to keep going despite those injuries. Whitebeard was the absolute strongest. There was no competition. He was practically in a league of his own. However, Sakazuki was able to fight him very impressively. This is all of the proof you need. If you can't accept this, then you are more stubborn than you claim to be. Stop saying that proof will change your mind unless this does. _This is your proof._


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## Gohara (Sep 22, 2014)

No offense taken, but:

-Even if I agreed Whitebeard was the strongest man when including his old age and illness- which I'm not sure is the case- I don't think he was in a league of his own.

-Akainu damaging Whitebeard doesn't mean he's close to his level.  When I say I believe someone will defeat another with low to mid difficulty, I still think the loser is going to damage the winner, perhaps even dealing a significant wound.  Overall, Akainu had a lot of help against Whitebeard, while the latter had little to no help against the former.  Yet, Whitebeard still bested Akainu overall.  So, I don't think pre time skip Akainu- who is the strongest Admiral IMO- is in the same tier as old Whitebeard and as such the other Yonkou.

That doesn't really constitute proof, as it relies on both your interpretation of Whitebeard's strength in comparison to the other Yonkou as well as your interpretation of Whitebeard vs. Akainu.  Both interpretations would require to be proven, and even if they were it would also have to be proven that the other Admirals could do the exact same thing.

Saying I'm stubborn just because I disagree with your interpretations is an easy response that could be said by anyone in any debate any time someone disagrees with them.

Having said that, I respect your views, and I have no issue with you disagreeing.


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## trance (Sep 22, 2014)

Actually, Akainu canonically fought well against Whitebeard before the latter became so heavily wounded, stopping his Gura-charged bisento with his foot and even managing to counter his quakes with his magma. Even when he was blindsided by Whitebeard and smashed into the ground, he managed to deal Whitebeard an extremely serious wound. I would rethink your place of him, Gohara.


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## Gohara (Sep 22, 2014)

Other than fighting Akainu, Whitebeard:

-Expended energy with his quakes (he used quite a few outside of his fight with Akainu)

-Fought Ronse.

-Was stabbed by Squardo.

-Fought John Giant.

-Fought off many marines.

-Fought Aokiji multiple times.

-Was said to have taken some damage from many cannons/swords/bullets.

Between his first and second confrontations with Akainu- he was damaged by Kizaru and fought off many more marines.

Up until the end of Whitebeard vs. Akainu- outside of fighting Whitebeard, Akainu had only melted a block of ice and rained down magma.

Despite all that, Whitebeard still bested Akainu overall.  Despite Whitebeard being old, sick, wounded, and having expended quite a bit of energy- a practically fully healed Akainu was unable to best him.


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## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -Expended energy with his quakes (he used quite a few outside of his fight with Akainu)



Care to prove if using those attacks left him seriously winded? 



> -Fought Ronse.



Fodder. 





> -Was stabbed by Squardo.



Meh. I think some vastly overrate how much damage that stab did to him. 



> -Fought John Giant.



Fodder.





> -Fought off many marines.



He fought off three marines, at least on panel, prior to reaching Akainu. Two of those were fodder (Ronse and John Giant) and one of them was Kuzan, who similarly managed to do well against Whitebeard in their brief fight by skillfully avoiding a would-be fatal and possibly would've been able to damage him had Jozu not interfered.



> -Fought Aokiji multiple times.



The first instance wasn't really a fight. Kuzan attacked and Whitebeard attacked, managing to break apart Kuzan's Logia form.



> -Was said to have taken some damage from many cannons/swords/bullets.



Besides Squard's stab, show me where he was damaged at all prior to facing Akainu. 



> Between his first and second confrontations with Akainu- he was damaged by Kizaru and fought off many more marines.



But in his first fight against Akainu, he was _seemingly_ unable to progress any further so long as the Admiral was in his way. 



> Despite all that, Whitebeard still bested Akainu overall.  Despite Whitebeard being old, sick, wounded, and having expended quite a bit of energy- a practically fully healed Akainu was unable to best him.



As I said, blindsided and Akainu still got an attack off. The exchange wasn't _nearly_ as bad for Akainu as you're making it out to be. 

ck


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## opofft (Sep 23, 2014)

Luffy giving extreme to an admiral level? Joke 
Sabo lows-mid him 
Sabo high them
M3 may win the last one 
Come in, flamingo is taking both law and luffy 
And I view sabo higher than flamingo


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 23, 2014)

Roo said:


> No offense, but this is absolutely blatantly wrong. Prove it?
> 
> 
> 
> An Admiral ("not a top-tier" apparently) took off half of Whitebeard's face in this panel. Sakazuki removed half of the face belonging to the strongest man in the world. Yes, the strongest man in the world was indeed sick and dying, but this is also the man that managed to to keep going despite those injuries. Whitebeard was the absolute strongest. There was no competition. He was practically in a league of his own. However, Sakazuki was able to fight him very impressively. This is all of the proof you need. If you can't accept this, then you are more stubborn than you claim to be. Stop saying that proof will change your mind unless this does. _This is your proof._



I honestly did not even read Gohara's last post and am soooo glad I did not. My head would have looked like WB's in that panel. I'm now going to ask MJYC if I can bum some of his good shit and take myself to bed.


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## RF (Sep 23, 2014)

Compare Zoro's performance against Fujitora against Sabo's. 

It's fucking ridiculous to say M3 level fighters are on his level.

Sabo low diffs scenario 1. Mid diffs 2. High diffs 3.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Care to prove if using those attacks left him seriously winded?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2/3 of your posts make me chuckle


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## Esdese (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Sabo wins all three. Low for the first, mid for the second and high for the last.


S1: Sabo low or mid diff
S2: either way   
S3: Zoro alone is strong enough to beat sabo


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## Quipchaque (Sep 23, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Compare Zoro's performance against Fujitora against Sabo's.
> 
> It's fucking ridiculous to say M3 level fighters are on his level.
> 
> Sabo low diffs scenario 1. Mid diffs 2. High diffs 3.



Actually their performance was equally impressive. Let?s compare:


- in both fights Fujitora was the dominating force

- Zoro and Sabo were both getting a bit roughed up

- Fujitora was held back to a similar level as his opponent

- in both fights Fuji?s opponent has been shown capable enough to counter his abilities


literally the only difference is the duration and level of the fight so Sabo deserves the benefit of the doubt over the M3 but he?s surely much closer to them than to Fuji. It?s cool if you think the admirals would high-diff them at most but Sabo sure as hell isn?t.


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## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -I don't think I said Luffy is as strong as old Rayleigh, let alone in the same league as prime Rayleigh.  I said that Rayleigh trained Luffy to be capable of fending off an invasion from Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines combined.  This leads me to believe that around 6 months ago Luffy was already capable of holding his own against an Admiral, but not necessarily being able to defeat one.  It's been around 6 months since then, and he's only getting stronger.


No, Rayleigh only wanted to teach him the basics of haki. Once it was accomplished, he left him continuing his training(likely) for the rest of the 6months. Actually Rayleigh didn't even think he could handle Sentoumaru and a bunch of pacifistas. He came all the way to help before noticing Luffy improved to the point he can handle things on his own


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 23, 2014)

*Pre* *Mera* Sabo: (  DD / Jozu > Sabo > M3 )

S1) Sabo wins mid-high  diff.

S2) Law & Luffy win very high diff.

S3) M3 win mid-high diff.
____________

*Post Mera* Sabo ( Fuji > Marco > Sabo > Jozu / DD)

S1) Sabo wins mid diff.

S2) Sabo wins mid-high to high diff.

S3) M3 wins very high to extreme  diff.


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## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Compare Zoro's performance against Fujitora against Sabo's.
> 
> It's fucking ridiculous to say M3 level fighters are on his level.
> 
> Sabo low diffs scenario 1. Mid diffs 2. High diffs 3.



Didn't Zoro have a hole open beneath him?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Actually their performance was equally impressive. Let?s compare:
> 
> 
> - in both fights Fujitora was the dominating force
> ...


1.) Zoro is Oda's favorite character, and he has tried to make him look good as much as possible over the TS, so his scenes should be taken with a grain of salt.
2.) Issho is deliberately holding back against the SHs, and when he clashed with Zoro the first time, he made Zoro bleed and he wasn't even trying to kill him.
3.) Issho actually used his powers somewhat seriously against Sabo, and eventually gained the edge after awhile, whereas Issho just gives Zoro a little push and Zoro is in a hole two seconds later.
4.) What do you mean high diff at most for the Admirals?


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## Quipchaque (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> 1.) Zoro is Oda's favorite character, and he has tried to make him look good as much as possible over the TS, so his scenes should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 2.) Issho is deliberately holding back against the SHs, and when he clashed with Zoro the first time, he made Zoro bleed and he wasn't even trying to kill him.
> 3.) Issho actually used his powers somewhat seriously against Sabo, and eventually gained the edge after awhile, whereas Issho just gives Zoro a little push and Zoro is in a hole two seconds later.
> 4.) What do you mean high diff at most for the Admirals?




1.) Actually it?s Buggy and Shanks. and Zoro looking good is due to his strength. Of course his feats can?t be taken at face-value but they are not completely baseless either.

2.) He?s holding back and proved his superiority in both scenarios so what?s your point? Heck against Sabo it?s even the surroundings that hinder Fuji to noticable degrees yet Sabo wasn?t able to do any more than Zoro nor did he escape unscathed.

Besides Zoro didn?t try to kill Fuji either yet he pushed him back easily ... with 1-sword-style... with bedrock weakening his slash.... under gravity-pressure. One does not simply overlook this impressive feat. You act as if Zoro bleeding indicates him getting fodderized, tanking is his forte and being caught off-guard is nothing shameful either, it happens to the best.

3.) Issho used his powers more seriously ok. Now prove he wouldn?t need to do that against bloodlusted Zoro and Luffy.

Pretty much everyone would end up in a hole who?s standing right in front of a gravity-man who makes the ground crack, don?t get your problem with this.

4.) I mean high-diff at most. Given you are hell-bent on making it look like Fuji fodderized Zoro you?d agree, I assume.


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## Freechoice (Sep 23, 2014)

Wtf at all these stupid replies lol


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## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

I didn't quite say that using those quakes alone left him seriously tired.  Just that he expended energy each time he used it, and he used it quite a few times.

I wasn't meaning to say that his fights against the Vice Admirals cost him much.  However, he still did expend energy fighting them.

Again, I'm not saying Squardo's stab did a lot to him, but it still dealt him damage.

Whitebeard was shown swinging his Bisento and- if I remember correctly- incorporating his quake powers multiple times against a group of marines.

His fights with Aokiji weren't long, but he still fought him multiple times and as such expended some energy each time.

I was referring to the off panel damage he was said to take.  Some of it was dealt by the Blackbeard Pirates, but some of it was dealt prior to that as well.

Plus, there's still the damage Kizaru dealt him.

In their first fight, the only thing that happened was Whitebeard was down due to his illness, and while he was down Akainu dealt him a blow.  This was also after Whitebeard was already battle worn.

Akainu received a warning about Whitebeard's presence and had multiple panels between said warning and when he was hit.  I wouldn't really count it as a surprise attack at that point.

@ Blake.

Rayleigh asked Luffy if he wanted an incident like Sabaody to happen again.  He trained him so that situation wouldn't happen again.  If it were just going to happen again, there would be no point in Luffy's training.  To add to this, Rayleigh had no idea if the other Strawhats were going to improve as well, and if so by how much.  Thus he was betting primarily on Luffy.  If Luffy would be defeated with less than around mid difficulty by any Admiral around 6 months ago, I don't see how he would be able to avoid a situation like Sabaody again.  Kizaru alone would be able to overwhelm him overall- and he would still have the help of a mid level Shichibukai, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  Yet that was Luffy around 6 months ago.  He's gotten even stronger since then.  Thus, I don't see any Admiral defeating Luffy with less than mid to high difficulty (and the mid to high difficulty would pretty much only be for pre time skip Akainu IMO).


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## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> In their first fight, the only thing that happened was Whitebeard was down due to his illness, and while he was down Akainu dealt him a blow.  This was also after Whitebeard was already battle worn.



You're surprisingly close-minded. You're looking at what happened at the end without looking at the _actual_ battle. Whitebeard swings his Gura-charged bisento, which Akainu halts with one foot. Then, he equals his quakes with his magma. Seemingly, Whitebeard is unable to advance any further because Akainu was in his way. 



And care to prove he was "battle worn"? 



> Akainu received a warning about Whitebeard's presence and had multiple panels between said warning and when he was hit.  I wouldn't really count it as a surprise attack at that point.



Care to prove he was actually aware of Whitebeard's presence prior to being struck in that one second timespan?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> 2.) He?s holding back and proved his superiority in both scenarios so what?s your point? Heck against Sabo it?s even the surroundings that hinder Fuji to noticable degrees yet Sabo wasn?t able to do any more than Zoro nor did he escape unscathed.


Issho had to take Sabo somewhat seriously. Zoro...not so much.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Besides Zoro didn?t try to kill Fuji either yet he pushed him back easily ... with 1-sword-style... with bedrock weakening his slash.... under gravity-pressure. One does not simply overlook this impressive feat.


Yeah, and Sanji failed to move Doflamingo an inch, while Pre TS Luffy sent Aokiji flying with a kick. Again, I'm taking it with a grain of salt.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> You act as if Zoro bleeding indicates him getting fodderized, tanking is his forte and being caught off-guard is nothing shameful either, it happens to the best.


Issho wasn't even trying to kill him, yet Zoro still struggled against his gravity, and coughed up blood.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> 3.) Issho used his powers more seriously ok. Now prove he wouldn?t need to do that against bloodlusted Zoro and Luffy.



*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 








Here's how M3 level opponents (and people stronger than them, ie Blackbeard) fared against Admirals and opponents who weren't even Admiral level. Akainu treated M3 level fighters like trash even after getting hit by an Island Splitter. Whitebeard had 1.9 feet in the grave and he still stomped Blackbeard. Doflamingo wiped the floor with Sanji without breaking a sweat.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> 4.) I mean mid-diff at most. Given you are hell-bent on making it look like Fuji fodderized Zoro you?d agree, I assume.


Indubitably.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

That's because what happened outside of their fight is relevant to what took place inside of it.



Here he was already battle worn.  You can see wounds on his body, and he's sweating.  At this point he had already sent off quite a few quakes and fought many people as well.  Although it's true Akainu stopped his Bisento, it was an attack aimed at a group of minor (compared to them) marines.  Plus, and again, Whitebeard was already battle worn by that point.  After that we see a few pages of them talking, and then Whitebeard's illness impacts him.  While Whitebeard was down due to his illness. Akainu dealt him a blow.

As for Akainu being aware of Whitebeard's presence, he was told about Whitebeard's presence.  Thus he knew at that point, and then had multiple panels in between that and when he was hit.  One of those panels had nine dots.


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

He looks fairly OK to me. At 100%? No but nowhere close to being at his limit. Not to mention that Akainu stopped a _Gura_-charged bisento with one leg *and* a quake punch actually aimed at him. Then, Akainu is _still_ in front of him a chapter later, indicating that it won't be so easy to get by him. 

Let's say it wasn't a blindside/ambush. It definitely wasn't a direct assault. Whitebeard chose to ambush him. Had he come at him directly and had Akainu been fully aware he was coming, he may have been able to counter his quakes instead of being forced to tank them. :ignoramus

It seems you're destined to become my next great rival now that Sabo has effectively retired.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

-He looks tired to me on top of having wounds.  I agree that he wasn't close to being defeated or anything, but I do believe he was battle worn enough for it to make a fairly sizable difference.

-True, but again that was an attack aimed at minor (compared to them) marines.  Plus, I believe we could see magma surrounding Akainu's leg as well.

-True, but we only saw them talking in that short amount of time between their clashes.

-Well, I see it as a fair attack, but even if we exclude that whole fight scene that still leaves Akainu without really accomplishing much against Whitebeard other than attacking him while he's down or stopping an attack from him aimed at much weaker characters.  About the only thing he could say at that point is that he clashed once with Whitebeard, but that would be little to no different than Mihawk vs. Crocodile and things of the like (especially considering Whitebeard was battle worn during that clash).  If we're going to count that one clash as implying that pre time skip Akainu is in the same tier as old Whitebeard, then that puts Jozu and Ace in the same tier as Aokiji, and they're just subordinates of Whitebeard's.

Yeah, we don't seem to agree much about One Piece power levels, although that's probably mostly down to the Admirals and maybe the Whitebeard Commanders.


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -He looks tired to me on top of having wounds.  I agree that he wasn't close to being defeated or anything, but I do believe he was battle worn enough for it to make a fairly sizable difference.



Considering the sheer amount of damage he endured prior to his final confrontation with Teach, I'd reckon he was at a solid 90%.



> -True, but again that was an attack aimed at minor (compared to them) marines.  Plus, I believe we could see magma surrounding Akainu's leg as well.



But it seemingly didn't require too much effort on Akainu's part. Did he casually halt it? No but he likely didn't use is highest strength output.



> -True, but we only saw them talking in that short amount of time between their clashes.



And what do you think was happening to them in that timeframe? 



> -Well, I see it as a fair attack, but even if we exclude that whole fight scene that still leaves Akainu without really accomplishing much against Whitebeard other than attacking him while he's down or stopping an attack from him aimed at much weaker characters.  About the only thing he could say at that point is that he clashed once with Whitebeard, *but that would be little to no different than Mihawk vs. Crocodile and things of the like (especially considering Whitebeard was battle worn during that clash).  If we're going to count that one clash as implying that pre time skip Akainu is in the same tier as old Whitebeard, then that puts Jozu and Ace in the same tier as Aokiji, and they're just subordinates of Whitebeard's*.



Are these straw men? 

Considering the Admirals have been consistently portrayed as powerhouses and some of the strongest in the world, I'd reckon they shouldn't be too far from Whitebeard.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Had he come at him directly and had Akainu been fully aware he was coming, he may have been able to counter his quakes instead of being forced to tank them.


Whitebeard would have died if Akainu knew he was coming. Akainu was capable of fighting evenly with Whitebeard when he still had his organs intact and fought Aokiji for ten damn days. He'd be fully capable of holding off a heavily injured Whitebeard off for a few minutes while waiting for his next heart attack to put him down.


Stαrkiller said:


> It seems you're destined to become my next great rival *now that Sabo has effectively retired.*


He did? When?


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Do you see Sabo posting here with his TL;DRs filled to the brim with Admiral downplay anymore? 

Come now, Tea.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

It's just a matter of time. I can't see him gone forever. That's like AK retiring from Admiral wanking.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> .
> 
> As for Akainu being aware of Whitebeard's presence, he was told about Whitebeard's presence.  Thus he knew at that point, and then had multiple panels in between that and when he was hit.  One of those panels had nine dots.





Are you blind?what multiple panels?WB gets behind him and attacks.He already had an attack prepared before he even got behind Akainu.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

I personally would love to see AK wank some good Admirals now that we have so many Admiral downplayers. And for the record, Sabo was only pulling your chains because he doesn't like the Admirals (mostly it's Sakazuki he hates) as much as most do. He readily accepts most facts when being completely serious. Nowadays it seems that there are users who _legitimately think_ that the Admirals are significantly weaker than the Yonkou. It's gotten to the point of actually pissing me off quite a bit.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

-It would be difficult to put a percentage on it, but even Akainu clashing once with a sick Whitebeard at 90% of his power still wouldn't tell us much.

-The same could potentially be said about Whitebeard.  So, that makes that feat difficult to quantify.

-There wasn't much time between all that- but Whitebeard spent a large part of the war looking on and directing his subordinates and allies, so it's quite possible him and Akainu weren't fighting that entire time, if at all.

-No.  I don't really see how they would be strawmen.  They're just comparisons to make a point.  In other words, even if I exclude that fight scene, Akainu wouldn't be any more in Whitebeard's tier than Jozu and Ace would be in Aokiji's tier.

-While I do agree that the Admirals have been portrayed as power houses in their own right, that leaves us with basically nothing but portrayal to go by, in which case I would refer to my point that the Yonkou have received far bigger reactions than the Admirals have overall.

@ White Hawk.

You've already asked me that, and I responded by saying the panels on the left of when Akainu was warned about Whitebeard's presence.  

@ Roo.

I don't think it's that some people with such beliefs are suddenly emerging.  While in your own personal experience you may be use to people agreeing with that mindset in regards to Admirals, this is the only community I go to where the Admirals are ranked close to Yonkou level by a handful of members or more.  In fact, I've literally only met 3 to 5 people outside of this forum who even feel that the Admirals could be on par with the Yonkou, and 2 of them also go here (Luke and White Hawk).  So, while I don't think it really matters how many people think what, I do think you should take that into consideration when wondering where the opposing mindset comes from.


----------



## Magician (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> He looks fairly OK to me.



The guy had a hole in his chest...


----------



## Ruse (Sep 23, 2014)

S1: Sabo wins low end of mid diff
S2: Sabo wins high diff
S2: Sabo wins high maybe extreme diff


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -The same could potentially be said about Whitebeard.  So, that makes that feat difficult to quantify.



That both put approximately the same amount of effort in that instance? 



> -There wasn't much time between all that, but Whitebeard spent a large part of the war looking on and directing his subordinates and allies, so it's quite possible him and Akainu weren't fighting that entire time, if at all.



If Akainu was *right in front of him* and was fully intent on stopping Whitebeard, then why wouldn't they fighting? 

Come now, you're still being close-minded. 





> in which case I would refer to my point that the Yonkou have received far bigger reactions than the Admirals have overall.



Because they don't live in a world where pirates are a majority, amirite?


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> The guy had a hole in his chest...



Because that stab really cut his health down by a significant margin, amirite?


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ White Hawk.
> 
> You've already asked me that, and I responded by saying the panels on the left of when Akainu was warned about Whitebeard's presence.



So you are blind.Or ignorant.Or idk.

That's 2 panels,one of WB's face and one of Ace.You know why that is?It's to signify WB's reasons for getting pissed and attacking Akainu like that.Time simply did not pass by as you suggest it did.Unless you think that every time someone attacks,an hour passes by.


----------



## Magician (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Because that stab really cut his health down by a significant margin, amirite?



He had a *hole in his chest*.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Roo.
> 
> I don't think it's that some people with such beliefs are suddenly emerging.  While in your own personal experience you may be use to people agreeing with that mindset in regards to Admirals, this is the only community I go to where the Admirals are ranked close to Yonkou level by a handful of members or more.  In fact, I've literally only met 3 to 5 people outside of this forum who even feel that the Admirals could be on par with the Yonkou, and 2 of them also go here (Luke and White Hawk).  So, while I don't think it really matters how many people think what, I do think you should take that into consideration when wondering where the opposing mindset comes from.



Whether you like it or not, Sakazuki isn't losing to an Emperor with less than high-diff (and even a win that easy is reserved for Kaido being a brutal enough son of a bitch to pull it off). Kuzan is effectively equal to Sakazuki. Kizaru isn't significantly weaker than his peers, so there's also that. All of this considered, they would pose a legitimate threat to any Emperor in a one-on-one battle.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Blake.
> 
> Rayleigh asked Luffy if he wanted an incident like Sabaody to happen again.  He trained him so that situation wouldn't happen again.  If it were just going to happen again, there would be no point in Luffy's training.  To add to this, Rayleigh had no idea if the other Strawhats were going to improve as well, and if so by how much.  Thus he was betting primarily on Luffy.  If Luffy would be defeated with less than around mid difficulty by any Admiral around 6 months ago, I don't see how he would be able to avoid a situation like Sabaody again.  Kizaru alone would be able to overwhelm him overall- and he would still have the help of a mid level Shichibukai, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  Yet that was Luffy around 6 months ago.  He's gotten even stronger since then.  Thus, I don't see any Admiral defeating Luffy with less than mid to high difficulty (and the mid to high difficulty would pretty much only be for pre time skip Akainu IMO).


Fair point, but how could he have no idea the strawhats won't improve? They had 2 years to improve. Law without even knowing strawhats was counting on his potential growth enough for him to give the 30% ratio thing to defeat Kaido(alongside with other plans he prepared like Doflamingo confronting Kaido, smiles and so on). Just by potential growth, you're capable to evaluate where one can stand. Doflamingo juged Luffy may be stronger than Law by just judging his potential he saw during the war and so on. 


Besides, we also don't know the exact reason why Rayleigh left 6months earlier(as far as we know), but like i've said in Shabondy, Rayleigh decided to come to help Luffy before noticing Luffy improved to the point he didn't required help anymore(eventhough he still helped to stall Sentoumaru). He said *"i just thought i'd come and check up on you, but it looks like you've got no problems. And you've refined your strength even further"*

That shows that even with the training he gave to Luffy, he was still worried enough he juged his help may have been necessary against Sentoumaru's group


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> He had a *hole in his chest*.



What looks like major damage and what really is major damage are two different things, YM.


----------



## Ether (Sep 23, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo upper end of low difficulty. Bloodlusted Sabo w/ Mera Mera along with Superior haki would handily defeat current Luffy who I say currently is slightly above Ace level at least until he powers up and defeats Doflamingo.

Scenario 2: Sabo mid diff, combination attacks are an increasing pain for Sabo. However, he has stronger CoA haki to defend against attacks like Radio Knife, Mes, and to evade attacks using his Logia intang quickly such as when he used it to defend against Ferocious Tiger. He has stronger haki overall and a good amount of AoE from Hiken alone. The duo won't be able to significantly damage him at their current level of strength.

Scenario 3: Sabo high diff, Sanji would get taken down first by Dragon claw as he has been portrayed to be inferior to the other two overall sadly. He is at least as strong as Zoro physically for matching Burgess's strength and clashing head on with Fuji's sword. He handles the duo the same way he handles the second scenario. Evading, defending and overpowering them with superior haki and fire attacks.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> What looks like major damage and what really is major damage are two different things, YM.



Here's a little bit of Devil's Advocate to spice things up:

Whitebeard _without_ a hole in his chest > Whitebeard _with_ a hole in his chest.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

-No, that neither went all out, but we don't know to what extent each held back.  It would be too difficult to quantify how they would compare in that regard, although Whitebeard's attack was aimed at far weaker characters than what Akainu's foot was aimed at.

-This would require us to know that Whitebeard tried to pass him in that short amount of time, which we don't know to be the case.

-I'm not sure what you mean by pirates being the majority.  Rather, I'm not sure what that has to do with my point here.  I was referring to things like Doflamingo being terrified of Kaidou, but not being afraid of Admirals at all and even being okay with challenging one to a fight as well as an island freaking out at post time skip Luffy yelling at Big Mam over the phone, but there being little to no reaction to pre time skip Luffy standing in front of three Admirals and practically daring them to stop him.

@ White Hawk.

Yes, which is what I said.  

There were nine dots in one of those panels.  I'm not saying an hour passed, nor am I even saying a lot of time passed.  I'm just saying some time did pass, and that's on top of Akainu receiving a warning about Whitebeard's presence.


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Am I implying any different, Rooman? 

What I am getting at is the stab being vastly overrated.


----------



## Freechoice (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Am I implying any different, Rooman?
> 
> What I am getting at is the stab being *vastly* overrated.





> *vastly*





> *vastly*





> *vastly*


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -No, that neither went all out, but we don't know to what extent each held back.  It would be too difficult to quantify how they would compare in that regard, although Whitebeard's attack was aimed at far weaker characters than what Akainu's foot was aimed at.



Doesn't look like Akainu is hardly trying. 



> -This would require us to know that Whitebeard tried to pass him in that short amount of time, which we don't know to be the case.



I-I'm half-tempted to pull out because now it's going into semantics. 



So, they were doing nothing but standing there, talking. 



> -I'm not sure what you mean by pirates being the majority.  Rather, I'm not sure what that has to do with my point here.  I was referring to things like Doflamingo being terrified of Kaidou, but not being afraid of Admirals at all and even being okay with challenging one to a fight as well as an island freaking out at post time skip Luffy yelling at Big Mam over the phone, but there being little to no reaction to pre time skip Luffy standing in front of three Admirals and practically daring them to stop him.



That pirates universally outnumber marines? 

Because reactions absolutely decide who's stronger, amirite? 

Because it's perfectly ok for the strongest pirates to totally outclass the strongest marines like that, amirite? 


*Spoiler*: __ 



God. Admirals vs. Yonko has become even more cancerous than Shanks vs. Mihawk.


----------



## Magician (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> What looks like major damage and what really is major damage are two different things, YM.



Certainly not in this case.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Roo.

That's your opinion.  I respect it, but that doesn't mean I should agree with it.

Besides, I can agree to some scenarios where that is the case.  If we're talking pre time skip Akainu, the only Yonkou I can maybe see having high difficulty in defeating him is Big Mam (assuming she's the weakest of the Yonkou).  If we're talking current Akainu, assuming he got stronger during the time skip, I can see him being on par with Big Mam and maybe even Kaidou.

@ Blake.

Rayleigh wouldn't know for sure where they were at the time, and even if he did he wouldn't know that they would have taken it upon themselves to train.  While he could guess that they would, they couldn't really be counted on with much certainty.

Rayleigh checking up on Luffy just in case doesn't really say much.  He didn't know who all would be there to fight Luffy, and it didn't hurt him to check just to be safe.

@ Starkiller.

-Yes, but who's to say Whitebeard was going close to all out or anything of that nature?  How much power Whitebeard put into that swing is anyone's guess.

-I could understand you finding that odd if they had been fighting for a long period of time, but when you exclude the pages where we actually saw them talking, it wasn't even a full chapter (it may have even been well below a full chapter- but I can't remember for certain off the top of my head).  I wouldn't find it odd at all if they had not clashed any further than what we saw, and even if they had we would know nothing about the clashes.

-Right, but what do pirates outnumbering marines have to do with my point here?

-They aren't the be all, end all, but they can be pretty telling.  Especially considering Yonkou consistently get far bigger reactions.  It hasn't just been once or twice.  It has pretty much been every time.  Besides, we were specifically discussing portrayal here.  If we're going to put stock into portrayal, I don't see how reactions wouldn't be relevant.

-I believe the strongest individuals in the marines are the Fleet Admiral and, pre time skip, Garp.  However, I don't see what's wrong with the Yonkou totally outclassing the Admirals in either case.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Am I implying any different, Rooman?
> 
> What I am getting at is the stab being vastly overrated.



Still calling me Rooman? Crawl out from underneath your rock.

And I know, but I was just saying. 

Holy christ on crackers, there are twelve guests in here right now. What the hell?


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Then that means Akainu, who is now Fleet Admiral, and Aokiji, who was nearly equal with him, are as strong as the Emperors anyway. 

You're a strange one, Gohara.


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

Roo said:


> I personally would love to see AK wank some good Admirals now that we have so many Admiral downplayers..



Dude, we have like, three people who downplay the Admirals, if even that


----------



## Ruse (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Then that means Akainu, who is now Fleet Admiral, and Aokiji, who was nearly equal with him, are as strong as the Emperors anyway.
> 
> You're a strange one, Gohara.



He thinks pre skip Akainu was a high tier


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Blake.
> 
> Rayleigh wouldn't know for sure where they were at the time, and even if he did he wouldn't know that they would have taken it upon themselves to train.  While he could guess that they would, they couldn't really be counted on with much certainty.
> 
> Rayleigh checking up on Luffy just in case doesn't really say much.  He didn't know who all would be there to fight Luffy, *and it didn't hurt him to check just to be safe.*


He didn't not need to know the exact location. All what he needed to know is that they would train during those 2 years, something obvious since they have 2 years to accomplish that. It can be evaluated within his estimations just like the Law and Doflamingo example i gave

@Bold So you admit that even after training, Rayleigh was still worried?


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

No offense to either poster, but: 

-Gohara is downplaying Akainu's feats. 

-Starkiller is downplaying the damage Whitebeard took during the war. 

Come on you guys


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Luke said:


> -Starkiller is downplaying the damage Whitebeard took during the war.



Mostly just that stab. 

Besides, it's been wanked horribly in the past. :ignoramus


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Mostly just that stab.
> 
> Besides, it's been wanked horribly in the past. :ignoramus



Still, getting impaled by a huge weapon and having a hole left in your chest afterwards is by no means a minor wound


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> He thinks pre skip Akainu was a high tier


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Luke said:


> Still, getting impaled by a huge weapon and having a hole left in your chest afterwards is by no means a minor wound



I never called it a "minor wound", doe. 

Did I? 

ck

But I don't remember calling it that.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

Compared to the something hundred stabs, bullets, and 46 cannonballs, I don't think Squard's stab did *that* much damage to Whitebeard.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 23, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> He thinks pre skip Akainu was a high tier


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Compared to the something hundred stabs, bullets, and 46 cannonballs, I don't think Squard's stab did *that* much damage to Whitebeard.



Not to mention Kizaru's laser, having his stomach melted and having half his face torn off.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

How did this turn into a Whitebeard thread again?


----------



## RF (Sep 23, 2014)

There's nothing wrong with thinking Akainu's a high tier.

Tiers are entirely subjective so until a defined tier list is given by the author of the manga people might as well put him in low-tier as long as they explain it sensibly.

Seeing how fighters like Roger/Prime WB are well above him, it's perfectly reasonable to put them in seperate tiers though I myself think Akainu is a solid top tier.


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> I never called it a "minor wound", doe.
> 
> Did I?
> 
> ...



But you've been downplaying that shit like a friend ck 

Just accept that Whitebeard is a good deal stronger than Akainu and everyone'll be happy


----------



## Magician (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> How did this turn into a Whitebeard thread again?



Every Sabo thread turns into an Admiral thread and every admiral thread turns into a Marineford thread and every marineford thread involves an Admirals vs Yonko debate which turns into Whitebeard vs Akainu.

Tis is how the OL works.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2014)

If the stab didn't do that much damage, a tank like Luffy wouldn't be surprised by Whitebeard's strength despite being stabbed. The more he did efforts, the more he weakened himself from that point, all that on top of his sickness


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Luke said:


> But you've been downplaying that shit like a friend ck



The wank has to be balanced out somehow. 



> Just accept that Whitebeard is a good deal stronger than Akainu and everyone'll be happy



I do think old Whitebeard is stronger than Akainu...if he's doesn't face the possibility of a heart attack.


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> *I do think old Whitebeard is stronger than Akainu*.



That's all we needed to hear, big boy


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

Blake said:


> If the stab didn't do that much damage, *a tank like Luffy wouldn't be surprised by Whitebeard's strength despite being stabbed.* The more he did efforts, the more he weakened himself from that point, all that on top of his sickness


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Luke said:


> That's all we needed to hear, big boy



Speaking of wank, it would seem Luke just came.


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

Roo said:


> Speaking of wank, it would seem Luke just came.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


>


Luffy is immune to blunt attacks. There is no better tank than him. I see nothing wrong with it


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Luke said:


>



"Worth the wank."


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 23, 2014)

Blake said:


> If the stab didn't do that much damage, a tank like Luffy wouldn't be surprised by Whitebeard's strength despite being stabbed. The more he did efforts, the more he weakened himself from that point, all that on top of his sickness



I don't even know what anyof this is suppossed to mean...

Luffy is not completely immune to blunt force. Lucci was tagging the fuck out Luffy and injuring him IIRC.

WB would rape current Luffy with no Devil fruit, a stab wound through the chest, and mid stroke.


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Blake said:


> Luffy is immune to blunt attacks. There is no better tank than him. I see nothing wrong with it



Logia are immune to everything outside their elemental weakness.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Logia are immune to everything outside their elemental weakness.



I guess haki is a universal elemental weakness.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 23, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I don't even know what anyof this is suppossed to mean...
> 
> Luffy is not completely immune to blunt force. Lucci was tagging the fuck out Luffy and injuring him IIRC.
> 
> WB would rape current Luffy with no Devil fruit, a stab wound through the chest, and mid stroke.


I wasn't trying to compare WB to Luffy in terms of strength. My example was to show that someone like Luffy who even greatly wounded is capable to operate on a similar level as if he was healthy because of his incredible will and life force, was surprised that a stabbed Whitebeard(stronger than him) still had that much strength left


Stαrkiller said:


> Logia are immune to everything outside their elemental weakness.


They dodge attacks with intangibility. Unfair comparison


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Issho had to take Sabo somewhat seriously. Zoro...not so much.



yep and neither did Zoro. Can?t get any more casual than 1 sword style flying slash really.



Issho D Tea said:


> Yeah, and Sanji failed to move Doflamingo an inch, while Pre TS Luffy sent Aokiji flying with a kick. Again, I'm taking it with a grain of salt.



pre TS Luffy attacked a guy who gave no fucks, Fuji gave enough of those to put up a guard yet couldn?t stop it.



Issho D Tea said:


> Issho wasn't even trying to kill him, yet Zoro still struggled against his gravity, and coughed up blood.



So far Issho never tried to kill anyone and yet they all struggled against his gravity I ask you again what?s the big deal about this, nobody is immune to gravity. You believe Whitebeard will stand there with a cool pose floating in the air when Fuji creates holes? Doflamingo bleeds against Law man sure is weak that guy. Stop overanalyzing nonsense like that it?s proof of his superiority which I never argued so let it go already.



Issho D Tea said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your examples are a bit flawed. Ace didn?t fight back and both instances he did he was shown dead-equal even against Akainu who ultimately got the edge due to df-advantage. Blackbeard-example is lol you should know better and Doflamingo clashed with the weakest m3-member.



Issho D Tea said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Indubitably.



*Spoiler*: __ 





Glad we agree for once.


----------



## Rocktomato (Sep 23, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Scenario 1: Sabo low-diffs.
> Scenario 2: Sabo mid-diffs (lower end).
> *Scenario 3: Sabo mid-diffs* (higher end).
> 
> Give Sabo more time with his fruit; he'll probably *no-diff/low-diff each round*.



Oh, for sod's sake.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 23, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> yep and neither did Zoro. Can?t get any more casual than 1 sword style flying slash really.


All Zoro did was clash with fuji for an instance. Then he got sucked down into a pit and managed to get back up. It's impressive given his tier and the power difference, it's not a positive feat for Zoro's strength being anywhere near admiral level lol. 




> pre TS Luffy attacked a guy who gave no fucks, Fuji gave enough of those to put up a guard yet couldn?t stop it.


Fujitora wasn't trying to harm Zoro...He literally blocked his light ass slash, to which Zoro immediately noted the power difference.





> So far Issho never tried to kill anyone and yet they all struggled against his gravity I ask you again what?s the big deal about this, nobody is immune to gravity. You believe Whitebeard will stand there with a cool pose floating in the air when Fuji creates holes? Doflamingo bleeds against Law man sure is weak that guy. Stop overanalyzing nonsense like that it?s proof of his superiority which I never argued so let it go already.


You aren't understanding author portrayal that is your problem. Zoro fending off from Fuji is meant to show his development from pre skip. Remember when aokiji no diffed the M3? Well now the M3 is strong enough to not get soloed with 1 hit, and could probably push admirals to low diff now (as oppossed to no diff).

None of what zoro did pits him on or even near admiral level.






> Your examples are a bit flawed. Ace didn?t fight back and both instances he did he was shown dead-equal even against Akainu who ultimately got the edge due to df-advantage. Blackbeard-example is lol you should know better and Doflamingo clashed with the weakest m3-member.


Ace was never shown equal to be with anyone on admiral level. The closest to that was Marco. Ace stalemated 1 attack from Aokiji and got raped by Akainu. Once again nothing about what Ace did pits him on that level.

for reference, BB mid to high diff'ed Ace with just Yami Fruit. Current BB with his crew, completely left Bonney (who they were suppossed to get a reward for) because he heard Akainu (by himself) was coming. 

Akainu >Current BB >> Pre skip Gura Teach > Yami Teach > Ace.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> yep and neither did Zoro. Can?t get any more casual than 1 sword style flying slash really.



*Spoiler*: __ 







Sweating bullets + struggling against gravity when Issho isn't even going all out + coughing up blood = Zoro is casual?


DiscoZoro20 said:


> pre TS Luffy attacked a guy who gave no fucks, Fuji gave enough of those to put up a guard yet couldn?t stop it.


And Doflamingo didn't get pushed back an inch when Sanji (someone very close to Zoro in strength) hit him, I guess Doflamingo > Issho. Fail logic.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> So far Issho never tried to kill anyone and yet they all struggled against his gravity I ask you again what?s the big deal about this, nobody is immune to gravity. You believe Whitebeard will stand there with a cool pose floating in the air when Fuji creates holes? Doflamingo bleeds against Law man sure is weak that guy. Stop overanalyzing nonsense like that it?s proof of his superiority which I never argued so let it go already.


Look man, Issho wasn't even taking Zoro seriously, yet Zoro was still coughing up blood from his casual attack, so do you think things will be roughly the same if Issho were trying to kill him? No. If Issho were actually serious, Zoro would be a pancake right now.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Your examples are a bit flawed. Ace didn?t fight back and both instances he did *he was shown dead-equal even against Akainu*


...say what? Hope you're talking about how when they exchanged blows (which was done so it would be more shocking when Ace lost that exchange), because otherwise, they were never shown to be equal.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> who ultimately got the edge due to df-advantage.


And because he outclasses in Ace in just about everything else, but lets just ignore that.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Blackbeard-example is lol you should know better


What does this even mean?
Anyway, Blackbeard is still stronger than the M3, he (temporarily) nullified Whitebeard's powers, yet Whitebeard still managed to destroy him even when he was literally on death's door.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> and Doflamingo clashed with the weakest m3-member.


Who isn't that far off from the M3 in strength.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Glad we agree for once.


 Carefully.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

Well, I said assuming Akainu got stronger during the time skip, which- if that's the case- would mean current Akainu > pre time skip Akainu > Aokiji.

@ Blake.

He would have to assume they were on an island and in circumstances suitable for training.

Rayleigh didn't seem "worried".  He just checked up just to be safe.

@ Heavenly Demon/Roo/Chrollo Lucilfer.

Well, either one of you are more than welcome to prove otherwise.  If you can, I will happily adjust my views accordingly.  If you can't, then I won't.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well, either one of you are more than welcome to prove otherwise.  If you can, I will happily adjust my views accordingly.  If you can't, then I won't.



Stop posing as an open-minded person and just admit that you see things your way and that nothing short of Oda writing you a personal letter will change your mind. We've given you proof, and you _choose_ to interpret it otherwise.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara is the first person in the history of the forum to believe the admirals " marines strongest" are not top tier.


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Gohara is the first person in the history of the forum to believe the admirals " marines strongest" are not top tier.



It's assholes like you that spur assholes like Luke to tell me that I'm being an asshole to the same guy that assholes like you are being assholes to. Stop it. Actually argue with him if you're going to disagree.

Asshole.


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

For the record, I'm not an asshole


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 23, 2014)

Luke... wtf is this shit... i thought you said something about Gohara having a different opinion.. What kind of an opinion is "Admirals are not top tier"? Absurd opinion if you ask me. Enlighten your friend


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Roo.

You've given feats that you interpreted a certain way.  Proof would be something like:

-An Admiral owning Doflamingo/Mihawk/current Luffy/etc. in a full length fair one on one fight.

-An Admiral having a full length fair one on one fight against a Yonkou and giving them high to extremely high difficulty.

However, you have not provided proof, although I do respect your views on the matter.

It's a bit assumptive to say I'm closed minded just because I disagree with your views on this matter.  I've adjusted my views on the Admirals and other characters before.  The current conclusion I've arrived to is after much debate and some adjustment.  Simply put, I find the Yonkou getting far bigger reactions and the Admirals having multiple fights/confrontations with characters below Yonkou level ending equally more convincing than Akainu clashing equally once with an old/sick/battle worn Whitebeard.

@ Canute.

Again, not that it should matter how many people agree with what, but I could easily just say that outside of this forum I hardly know anyone who believe they are Yonkou level.  So, I don't see why it would even matter if not that many people on this specific forum disagree with that mindset.

@ Chrollo Lucilfer.

That you say "if you ask me" implies that what your belief is also an opinion.  If you agree that it's not a matter of fact, it shouldn't bother you when someone disagrees with your opinion.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Lucky Rue said:


> It's assholes like you that spur assholes like Luke to tell me that I'm being an asshole to the same guy that assholes like you are being assholes to.* Stop it. Actually argue with him if you're going to disagree.*
> 
> Asshole.



Rue, there is no possible argument anybody can have with gohara to change his mindset.

I mean we have been shown, told, highlighted many times what the admirals represent on the power scale.  "The marines strongest", to think there is anybody who could believe that those who hold that position doesn't stand amongst the top of the food chain.

There's no argument you can have with that person in that regard, it's just not possible.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara thinks that 9 dots are an indication about Akainu having a good deal of time to react to WB's attack,that speaks a lot about how easily you can change his mind.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Gohara thinks that 9 dots are an indication about Akainu having a good deal of time to react to WB's attack,that speaks a lot about how easily you can change his mind.


And that Bird Cage or Luffy nearly destroying Noah can be compared with Akainu and Aokiji changing the climate of an island as a side effect...


----------



## Magician (Sep 23, 2014)

Why do all my threads end up turning into hilarious shitstorms?


----------



## Suit (Sep 23, 2014)

It's not you, YM. It's the OPA. It's pretty much always going to be like this.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

♦Young Master♦ said:


> Why do all my threads end up turning into hilarious shitstorms?


My favorite is still the Kizaru vs Supernovas thread.


----------



## Luke (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> My favorite is still the Kizaru vs Supernovas thread.



The Supernovas win with zero difficulty


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Trolling is a bad thing, stop trying to BS me.



Issho D Tea said:


> And Doflamingo didn't get pushed back an inch when Sanji (someone very close to Zoro in strength) hit him, I guess Doflamingo > Issho. Fail logic.



Lots of assumptions and not in the least relevant you were the one who tried to gimme BS (again) like Aokiji-Luffy and Zoro-Fuji being similar scenarios. Talking about fail logic... .



Issho D Tea said:


> Look man, Issho wasn't even taking Zoro seriously, yet Zoro was still coughing up blood from his casual attack, so do you think things will be roughly the same if Issho were trying to kill him? No. If Issho were actually serious, Zoro would be a pancake right now.



Look man, Zoro used one of his weakest attacks in a disadvantageous situation yet he?s still able to push an admiral back, so do you think this indicates a bigger gap between him and Fuji than between Sabo and Fuji? The guy who isn?t even able to control his logia and yet relies on it non-stop to keep up at all? The guy who never took gravity hits from close range with his body and instead opts to use his df-powers?  Can you even prove Zoro wouldn?t be able to escape say Fuji?s ferocious tiger or even take it head on? Remember Zoro is quite a beast in taking hits and stated by Oda quite good with coa.



Issho D Tea said:


> ...say what? *Hope you're talking about how when they exchanged blows* (which was done so it would be more shocking when Ace lost that exchange), because otherwise, they were never shown to be equal.[
> And because he outclasses in Ace in just about everything else, but lets just ignore that.



What else? I?m fully aware why that was done but you are not. You brought this up to prove a point how easily they can handle Ace etc. which is clearly not the case since ... you know.... they didn?t. Nothing else to add.



Issho D Tea said:


> *What does this even mean?*
> Anyway, Blackbeard is still stronger than the M3, he (temporarily) nullified Whitebeard's powers, yet Whitebeard still managed to destroy him even when he was literally on death's door.
> 
> Who isn't that far off from the M3 in strength.



Blackbeard?s a moron.



Issho D Tea said:


> Carefully.



Cool, shows how stubborn and close-minded you are. Characters that are held back the whole timeskip and show awesome stuff holding somewhat their own against an admiral ...impoooossiburuuu.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Trolling is a bad thing, stop trying to BS me.


Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Lots of assumptions and not in the least relevant you were the one who tried to gimme BS (again) like Aokiji-Luffy and Zoro-Fuji being similar scenarios. Talking about fail logic... .
> Look man, Zoro used one of his weakest attacks in a disadvantageous situation yet he?s still able to push an admiral back, so do you think this indicates a bigger gap between him and Fuji than between Sabo and Fuji? The guy who isn?t even able to control his logia and yet relies on it non-stop to keep up at all? The guy who never took gravity hits from close range with his body and instead opts to use his df-powers?


1.) Depending on the circumstances, making an Admiral move does not mean much, and this is one such case. Doflamingo isn't Admiral level, yet Sanji couldn't make him budge an inch, while Zoro could move Issho, someone far stronger than Doflamingo.
2.) Sabo was actually able to fight Issho for awhile, who had to get a bit serious, whereas Zoro was choking on his own blood in five seconds thanks to a nonchalant Issho.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> *Can you even prove Zoro wouldn?t be able to escape say Fuji?s ferocious tiger or even take it head on?* Remember Zoro is quite a beast in taking hits and stated by Oda quite good with coa.


Zoro was bleeding from Issho when he wasn't trying to kill him. Issho still hasn't gone all out yet he's able to fold up buildings like they're nothing. 2 + 2 = 4.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> What else? I?m fully aware why that was done but you are not. You brought this up to prove a point how easily they can handle Ace etc. *which is clearly not the case since ... you know.... they didn?t.* Nothing else to add.


Are you seriously saying that an Admiral couldn't easily beat Ace? Ace got mid diffed by Blackbeard, who was nowhere near Admiral level Pre TS. Meanwhile the Admirals fought on even grounds with the WSM, they'd beat Ace without breaking a sweat.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Blackbeard?s a moron.


Yet he was still physically manhandled by a half faced Whitebeard.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Cool, shows how stubborn and close-minded you are. Characters that are held back the whole timeskip and show awesome stuff holding somewhat their own against an admiral ...impoooossiburuuu.


There's only one person on Dressrosa who proved that they were able to somewhat hold their own against Issho. And guess what? It certainly wasn't Zoro.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 23, 2014)

Zoro taking a fierce tiger?


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Zoro taking a fierce tiger?


Oh, he can take a Fierce Tiger...once.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Canute.

Saying we have been shown, told, and highlighted many times where the Admirals rank is essentially just stating that your own interpretation of what we were shown, told, and highlighted is correct.  While I have no problem with you interpreting things the way you have, that doesn't serve as evidence that said interpretations are correct.  I would argue that the reactions the Yonkou have gotten have been consistently superior to the reactions the Admirals have gotten by a sizable margin.  Thus I could say that, from my perspective, the Yonkou have been highlighted as being a league above the Admirals in general.

They weren't called the marines' strongest individuals.  They were called the marines' strongest/ultimate attack force.

@ White Hawk.

I didn't necessarily say it indicates that a good deal of time passed.  Just enough for Akainu to react.  I would expect Akainu to be able to react within a few seconds.  Nine dots, multiple panels, and a warning of Whitebeard's presence should be more than enough for that IMO.

@ Issho.

Indeed, but you didn't add in that it took them 10 days to do it vs. the seconds or minutes it took Doflamingo and Luffy to do those things.  I didn't say any of the feats were superior to the other.  Just that I don't see how that feat from pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji is clearly more impressive.  Especially without a determining quantifiable factor.

If you disagree, you're more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Canute.
> 
> Saying we have been shown, told, and highlighted many times where the Admirals rank is essentially just stating that your own interpretation of what we were shown, told, and highlighted is correct.  While I have no problem with you interpreting things the way you have, that doesn't serve as evidence that said interpretations are correct.
> 
> They weren't called the marines' strongest individuals.  They were called the marines' strongest/ultimate attack force.



"Marines strongest" means the admiral rank.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

I knew that you were referring to the Admirals, but like I said they were called the strongest/ultimate attack force.  Force generally implies more than one person, which could mean when you combine every marine of their respective ranks, the Admirals are the strongest.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I knew that you were referring to the Admirals, but like I said they were called the strongest/ultimate attack force.  Force generally implies more than one person, which could mean when you combine every marine of their respective ranks, the Admirals are the strongest.



"Ultimate attack force" referred to all three of them.

"Marines strongest" refers to the admiral rank.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly.  If you just mean that you meant to say they are some of the strongest in the marines, I agree with that.  I'm just saying they may not be the absolute strongest individuals in the marines (personally I would say that's the Fleet Admiral and, pre time skip, Garp).


----------



## Lawliet (Sep 23, 2014)

This guy for real ?


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly.  If you just mean that you meant to say they are some of the strongest in the marines, I agree with that.  I'm just saying they may not be the absolute strongest individuals in the marines (personally I would say that's the Fleet Admiral and, pre time skip, Garp).



They are the absolute strongest Hence the term "Marines strongest" those were the only three who achieved it,  Garp we knew declined for reasons stated in strong world.

Fleet Admiral comes more with responsibilities, it has nothing to do with them being stronger than the other as the general peak has been attained by the individuals compared to their underlings, Akainu and Aokiji were both capable of being fleet admirals.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 23, 2014)

oOLawlietOo said:


> This guy for real ?





Canute87 said:


> They are the absolute strongest Hence the term "Marines strongest" those were the only three who achieved it,  Garp we knew declined for reasons stated in strong world.
> 
> Fleet Admiral comes more with responsibilities, it has nothing to do with them being stronger than the other as the general peak has been attained by the individuals compared to their underlings, Akainu and Aokiji were both capable of being fleet admirals.


Don't forget Kong, he was the FA, yet Garp was the one fighting the Pirate King in near death battles.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Don't forget Kong, he was the FA, yet Garp was the one fighting the Pirate King in near death battles.



Left out Kong because nobody knows how strong he is/was.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Canute.

Where does it say they are the strongest *individuals*?

Garp declined, but that doesn't mean he's weaker than the Admirals now.  Also, Kong isn't part of the marines.  He's part of the World Government.  So even if I agreed that the Admirals are the strongest individuals in the marines, which I don't, that doesn't necessarily make them the strongest on the side of the World Government.

I respectfully disagree that being Fleet Admiral doesn't generally mean being stronger, unless it was stated somewhere that this isn't the case.  That the new Fleet Admiral was decided by who the strongest of the candidates were doesn't tell me otherwise.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Canute.
> 
> Where does it say they are the strongest *individuals*?
> 
> ...



Robin spoke about the rank the first time Kiji was introduced and Maynard again about Issho.

At the same time he could  be weaker there's no way to know, but Garp never wanted the position even though he was as powerful as he was so it matters little we saw he was good enough for it in the first place.  The marines are the main military force of the Government and the ones who are the direct combatants to the pirate threat the same people who you put a great deal above everybody so yes they are going to be among the strongest force the government has to offer against the pirates, the world's biggest threat.

Akainu and Aokiji's situation  came about as a conflict of interest, not whether or not they thought they were the right person for the job because one  was stronger than the other.  Sengoku recommended Kiji and WG officials wanted Akainu for more complicated reasons than who was stronger than who.  The only reason Kiji fought  Akainu because he was that much against the idea of Akainu taking control there were a lot of bad blood between the two  A fight was what they wanted and agreed to their own terms, it wasn't a rule in place.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 23, 2014)

For some reason Issho has it set up so no one can directly contact. But thank you for that top tier rep


----------



## Gohara (Sep 23, 2014)

@ Canute.

Robin only says that they're the ultimate assault force.  In the same chapter she states Sengoku is superior to them.  Maynard only says they're the marines' greatest weapons, which can be interpreted the same way as them being the ultimate assault/military force.

Even if I agreed Garp wasn't stronger than them, which I personally doubt since he was confident he could kill Akainu and Sengoku didn't seem to disagree, I don't see him being any weaker than them.

I agree that the Admirals are the main ones dispatched, but that's largely because the Fleet Admiral has to delegate due to the nature of their position.  While they could be (and IMO generally are) the strongest individual in the marines, they also have to stay at their post to give orders.  I also find it interesting that during the Marineford War, Sengoku states something to the effect of "It looks like we'll have to get involved", which implies that they are the very top of the marines.  It would be odd for them to say that if they were only as strong as or weaker than the Admirals.  Also, and again, even if I agreed the Admirals are the strongest individuals in the marines- the marines are just one side of a coin flipped by the World Government.  I personally believe that the Gorosei and Kong will at some point be facing the protagonists.  I don't see any other reason to make it known to us that the Gorosei can fight, nor do I really see a point in Kong's character if that weren't the case.

Yes, but when there was a conflict of interest, the Fleet Admiral was decided based on strength.

Of course, it could at some point be proven that your interpretations are correct, but for now I don't really see anything clearly proving that such is the case.  Even if on the chance that it is proven at some point, that still doesn't necessarily equate to them being on par with the Yonkou.


----------



## trance (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> In the same chapter she states Sengoku is superior to them.



Because he's their commanding officer via possessing the higher rank. Was it really that hard to misinterpret that?


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Indeed, but you didn't add in that it* took them 10 days to do it* vs. the* seconds or minutes it took Doflamingo and Luffy to do those things.  I didn't say any of the feats were superior to the othe*r.  Just that I don't see how that feat from pre time skip Akainu and Aokiji is clearly more impressive.  Especially without a determining quantifiable factor.






> If you disagree, you're more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.


Okay, the Noah is no where near as durable or big as Punk Hazard. Luffy was using one of his ace moves to destroy a wooden ship (that is huge), very impressive. 

Lets look at Dofla's feat. Using his string to encompass the whole island, and trap everyone inside. Impressive in DF skill terms yes, but wow/difficulty factor? Not that high. A dedicated sewing group with enough funds could replicate such a feat.

Okay now I want you to go look up what climate is. Read up on the factors that cause climate and how hard it is to manipulate this.

Now understand that just by simply being the battleground where 2 admirals fought, Punk Hazard had it's climate changed for some time. This means the ecological imprint left on the island from those two was that powerful that it could simply just coexist as two completely opposite environments, despite neither of them being the climate prior to their fight.

Now think of how many nukes/nukes of liquid Nitrogen it would take to substantially alter the environment of a large island such as what happened at PH. 

Come back to me when the scope of the feat has sunk in.


----------



## Nox (Sep 23, 2014)

Scenario 1: Sabo. High Low - Low Mid.
Scenario 2: Sabo. Mid
Scenario 3: Sabo. High Mid.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 23, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Canute.
> 
> Robin only says that they're the ultimate assault force.  In the same chapter she states Sengoku is superior to them.  Maynard only says they're the marines' greatest weapons, which can be interpreted the same way as them being the ultimate assault/military force.



He was speaking to issho' strength being apart of that group.

Admirals are the greatest asset.  Someone could easily say same things about the yonkou.

So i take it that you do not think the admirals are the strongest fighters in the marines?



> Even if I agreed Garp wasn't stronger than them, which I personally doubt since he was confident he could kill Akainu and Sengoku didn't seem to disagree, I don't see him being any weaker than them.



Means little.



> I agree that the Admirals are the main ones dispatched, but that's largely because the Fleet Admiral has to delegate due to the nature of their position.  While they could be (and IMO generally are) the strongest individual in the marines, they also have to stay at their post to give orders.  I also find it interesting that during the Marineford War, Sengoku states something to the effect of "It looks like we'll have to get involved", which implies that they are the very top of the marines.  It would be odd for them to say that if they were only as strong as or weaker than the Admirals.  Also, and again, even if I agreed the Admirals are the strongest individuals in the marines- the marines are just one side of a coin flipped by the World Government.  I personally believe that the Gorosei and Kong will at some point be facing the protagonists.  I don't see any other reason to make it known to us that the Gorosei can fight, nor do I really see a point in Kong's character if that weren't the case.



They had to get involved because the other admirals were down there dealing with the "strongest" yonkou who decided to jump into battle.  And even if they said that they did they never did much at all.



> Yes, but when there was a conflict of interest, the Fleet Admiral was decided based on strength.



Between two individuals with serious bad blood. A deathmatch cannot be considered a military standard. If both parties wanted one individual the other would have to suck it up or  leave.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 24, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> "Ultimate attack force" referred to all three of them.
> 
> "Marines strongest" refers to the admiral rank.


Gohara has a point though. The hype around admirals  must be concerning the group as a whole instead of individuals considering we know for sure that admirals aren't stronger than someone like Akainu(current fleet admiral)


----------



## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

If we're going to say her statement on Sengoku is up for interpretation, then the same must be said about the Admirals.

@ White.

-Noah is said to be half the size of Fishman Island.  Each Admiral that that effect on half of Punk Hazard.

-If we're going to pass off Doflamingo's Bird Cage as just being Devil Fruit skill, then the same could be said about the feat by Akainu and Aokiji in question.  I doubt any sewing group can make strings that can kill every citizen on the island and destroy meteors.  

-If I believed real life science/physics always applied to Manga, I could somewhat see where you're coming from, but it generally doesn't.  A borderline normal human has dodged lightning in One Piece, and Kizaru takes a handful of seconds to travel far less than a full mile.  Even if I agreed that all of that could be taken as fact within One Piece's universe, the requirements for making that happen wouldn't be guaranteed to be the same as in real life.  This also goes back to you putting emphasis on Devil Fruit abilities, as one could just chalk it up to that all the same.  Therefore this can't be quantified on the same level, and ultimately still does not come off as more impressive not just in general, but in destructive damage (at least IMO).

@ Canute.

-Yes, but again the statement doesn't say strongest individuals.

-As a whole they probably are, given that there are three of them.  The difference between them and the Yonkou, though, is that Yonkou isn't a rank within an organization.  So it's doubtful they would ever be referred to as a force (other than when mentioned with their crews), but even then Garp stated they're the four strongest pirates.

-I genuinely don't.  While I do think the Admirals will always be a major force, I don't think any of them will be end of series opponents for any of the main protagonists, maybe except for Sanji and/or below.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2014)

Not at all the difference between the three is small, they are all on the same tier. This was highlighted by the 10-day climate changing fight between aokiji and Akainu.


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## Canute87 (Sep 24, 2014)

Blake said:


> Gohara has a point though. The hype around admirals  must be concerning the group as a whole instead of individuals considering we know for sure that admirals aren't stronger than someone like Akainu(current fleet admiral)



Aokiji was on equal grounds with Akainu as well.


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## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

Pre time skip Akainu is probably stronger than all the other Admirals.  Even if the difference isn't big,  he would still be stronger than them.  There's also Garp.


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## Canute87 (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Canute.
> 
> -Yes, but again the statement doesn't say strongest individuals.
> 
> ...



If three of them make up the ultimate attack force how does that not point to their individual strength?

Yonkou is a group.  Ultimate fighting force also points to the group.  Their individual strength was never a question for the rank.


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## Canute87 (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Pre time skip Akainu is probably stronger than all the other Admirals.  Even if the difference isn't big,  he would still be stronger than them.  There's also Garp.



You can't fight someone for ten days straight also suffering massive injuries for a "difference isn't big". They were tethering on equal ground.


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## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

Ultimate attack force could just mean that if every marine of their respective ranks combined, the Admirals would be the strongest.  So while this tells us they are extremely powerful individually and three of some of the strongest individuals in the marines, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the absolute strongest individuals.

Yonkou is just a title for the four strongest pirates.  They aren't necessarily a group.

Akainu won.  That he suffered significant damage doesn't mean they are 100% equal.  As the strongest individuals, if that is indeed what they are, they should be stronger than Akainu.


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## Canute87 (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Ultimate attack force could just mean that if every marine of their respective ranks combined, the Admirals would be the strongest.  So while this tells us they are extremely powerful individually and three of some of the strongest individuals in the marines, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the absolute strongest individuals.
> 
> Yonkou is just a title for the four strongest pirates.  They aren't necessarily a group.



So you believe that there were other marines that could match akainu kiji and kizaru?


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## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

Pre time skip, only Sengoku and Garp.  Currently, only Akainu.


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## Canute87 (Sep 24, 2014)

So Issho and green bull are not capable?


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## trance (Sep 24, 2014)

The idea that the Fleet Admiral _has_ to surpass the Admirals in power is still extremely unlikely and honestly, has little basis.

Garp being confident in murdering Sakazuki is also not fully suggestive that he's above him since his confidence could've been misplaced in this instance due to his anger about Ace's death. 

Sengoku wanting him to keep him from "_killing_" Sakazuki is, again, not suggestive of the above's supposed superiority since it's extremely likely that had Garp, who is technically one of Sakazuki's comrades, attacked him with intent to kill, he likely could've suffered severe repercussions as I doubt he would've just gotten off scot-free after attacking him. In other words, he might've just been trying to keep Garp from getting into serious trouble with the Gorosei or Kong or whoever.

All in all, this idea that "Sengoku and Garp > Admirals" has a lot less weight than what you're making it out to be.


----------



## Suit (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> For some reason Issho has it set up so no one can directly contact. But thank you for that top tier rep



Out of curiosity, was it a Leone gif?


----------



## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

@ Canute.

It depends on how you define matching them.  I think it's likely that they could give pre time skip Akainu around high difficulty.

@ Starkiller.

While I agree it's not factual, higher rank= stronger would have plenty of precedence within major fighting Shonen series and similar works of fiction in general.  Either way, I didn't necessarily say it has "a lot" of weight to it if we're speaking in regards to whether or not it is factual.  Still, the Admirals would have to be stronger than Garp and technically the Fleet Admiral if we were going to go along with the interpretation of the Admirals being the absolute strongest in the marines rather than just the strongest attack force/some of the strongest in the marines.


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## trance (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> While I agree it's not factual, higher rank= stronger would have plenty of precedence within major fighting Shonen series and similar works of fiction in general.



Not always. 

I wouldn't consider this a good argument anyway. 



> Still, the Admirals would have to be stronger than Garp and technically the Fleet Admiral if we were going to go along with the interpretation of the Admirals being the absolute strongest in the marines rather than just the strongest attack force/some of the strongest in the marines.



And that's very possible that they are. :ignoramus


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 24, 2014)

_Comparing Zoro to Sabo, that's hilarious. Seeing Fujitora's intentions it's pretty clear that he did Zoro a favor when he got in between him and Doflamingo. The Shichibukai would have killed him right there on the spot while the Admiral gently put him down a few levels bellow him, where he belongs. If that alone caused internal bleeding, Zoro's bones would have probably been shattered by a serious Fujitora._


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 24, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?



I dunno, certainly I?m not the one arguing facts like a 1-sword-style airslash being one of Zoro?s most casual techniques and hardening being one of the best defensive capabilities but of course in your world it?s a well-known fact Zoro can?t use that since he never did before.



Issho D Tea said:


> 1.) Depending on the circumstances, making an Admiral move does not mean much, and this is one such case. Doflamingo isn't Admiral level, yet Sanji couldn't make him budge an inch, while Zoro could move Issho, someone far stronger than Doflamingo.
> 2.) Sabo was actually able to fight Issho for awhile, who had to get a bit serious, whereas Zoro was choking on his own blood in five seconds thanks to a nonchalant Issho.



Yep yep moving an admiral with  non-serious attack while supposedly being fodder to him certainly doesn?t mean much, heard it all now. Guess Sanji?s kicks being too weak to do a damn thing to his opponent is just bad luck and couldn?t possibly indicate a noticable gap between him and Zoro...



Issho D Tea said:


> Zoro was bleeding from Issho when he wasn't trying to kill him. Issho still hasn't gone all out yet he's able to fold up buildings like they're nothing. 2 + 2 = 5.



Zoro bleeds against Kaku?s casual finger pistol in base form yet doesn?t insta-die when Kaku pulled out the big guns. As I said lots of assumptions and scaling Zoro?s durability to mere buildings... just when I thought it couldn?t get any more ridiculous. And note how I never even argued against the idea serious Fuji could stomp Zoro... casual Fuji can?t that?s what this is about.



Issho D Tea said:


> Are you seriously saying that an Admiral couldn't easily beat Ace? Ace got mid diffed by Blackbeard, who was nowhere near Admiral level Pre TS. Meanwhile the Admirals fought on even grounds with the WSM, they'd beat Ace without breaking a sweat.



Casual admirals can?t as proven by your very own scans unless you believe the outcome would change if Aokiji uses his weak moves repeatedly. lol



Issho D Tea said:


> Yet he was still physically manhandled by a half faced Whitebeard.



As I said Blackbeard?s a moron. Don?t be one yourself you know the difference.



Issho D Tea said:


> There's only one person on Dressrosa who proved that they were able to somewhat hold their own against Issho. And guess what? It certainly wasn't Zoro.



If you say so.


----------



## Tenma (Sep 24, 2014)

Wtf has Sangoku done  to put him above Akainu, Aokiji etc.

Apart from failing to seriously hurt Luffy with a direct hit and getting his ass kicked by Teach.


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## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

True, it's not always the case, but it usually is.

Marco fared better against Kizaru than against Garp.  Given that and the reactions old Garp gets, I doubt the Admirals are any stronger than him.  Even assuming they are, there's still prime Garp who wasn't an Admiral, and yet I think we can agree is stronger than the Admirals regardless of how we personally rank the Admirals.  Current Akainu is technically stronger than the Admirals from what we've seen, so I don't see how the Admirals could be stronger than him.

@ Tenma.

Sengoku has barely fought.  Luffy surprised him with his Balloon technique.  I might be misremembering, but I'm fairly certain he had actually bested the Blackbeard Pirates combined overall.  He had created a shockwave, which damaged all the Blackbeard Pirates and basically sent them flying.

At any rate, Sengoku seems to be more respected.  While Whitebeard was calling the Admirals little brats and telling the strongest of them to go light a birthday cake, he was basically praising Sengoku.  Shanks paid no mind to Akainu other than blocking his attack with one hand, but spoke to Sengoku respectfully by comparison to usual pirate and marine interaction.  Doflamingo insults and at one point basically challenged Admirals to a fight, but stopped messing with some Vice Admirals when Sengoku told him to stop.  Sengoku was also able to hold down a blood lusted Garp in his normal form, and along with Garp was able to defeat Shiki, one of Roger's/Whitebeard's rivals (on the other hand it took three Admirals, the Blackbeard Pirates, and many others to take down old Whitebeard).  Beyond that, higher ranked usually means stronger in major fighting Shonen series.

Having said that, it is not a fact that Sengoku > Admirals, but I also wouldn't go so far as to suggest there would be nothing supporting that.  There's certainly some reasoning as to why one might rank Sengoku above them, and to be fair I'm sure there's some reasoning as to why you might rank him on par with them.


----------



## trance (Sep 24, 2014)

Admirals are still top ter. They're stonger than Sengoku. Nothing points to them being weaker than either him or Garp outside baseless assumptions.


----------



## Magician (Sep 24, 2014)

Sengoku = C3

And Garp >>> Akainu


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## trance (Sep 24, 2014)

Garp being stronger than the Admirals is nothing but a delusional fanfiction.


----------



## RF (Sep 24, 2014)

It's delusional fanfiction to think that Garp couldn't possibly be above the admirals.


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## Tenma (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Tenma.
> 
> Sengoku has barely fought.  Luffy surprised him with his Balloon technique.  I might be misremembering, but I'm fairly certain he had actually bested the Blackbeard Pirates combined overall.  He had created a shockwave, which damaged all the Blackbeard Pirates and basically sent them flying.
> 
> ...



Besides the initial 'Teach is careless and let's himself get hit' thing that happens in all of his fights, the moment Teach started fighting back  Sengoku couldn't lay a finger on him and ended up quite badly wounded at the end of the fight even with Garp's help, while Teach himself was basically was unscathed. The same Teach ran away with his entire crew when he heard Akainu was stopping by.

Not to mention his attack barely pissed off the BB Pirates, failing to seriously injure any of them, At the time, a good number of them were weaklings.

Surprising him with balloon technique or not, an attack from a top tier should have incapacitated pre-skip Luffy who didn't even know Haki. You can't even claim it is an outlier as Sengoku doesn't have better feats.

I'm sure Whitebeard and Shanks would respect Old Rayleigh as well, but that doesn't mean he's stronger than the C3, much less in a different league.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Sep 24, 2014)

I can't believe this thread has dragged on for so many pages. Why all this splitting of hairs of who is stronger? Top tiers are all very close. What they share is that they own the next step down.

I have a feeling that since Gohara thinks there is actually a noticeable difference between current Akainu and Fujitora must have a very tiny power scale for OP where Old WB is a 9.5, pre-skip Akainu is an 8, Fuji is a 7.5, and then Luffy is something ridiculous like a 5 or 5.5 that becomes an 6.5 with willpower. 

In reality Prime WB is a 10, Old-9 or 9.5, Admirals-9, Sabo 8.5, Luffy is still 5.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 24, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I dunno, certainly I?m not the one arguing facts like a 1-sword-style airslash being one of Zoro?s most casual techniques and hardening being one of the best defensive capabilities but of course in your world it?s a well-known fact Zoro can?t use that since he never did before.


I didn't know barely throwing out a slash when you're getting crushed by an opponent who is deliberately holding back = casual.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yep yep moving an admiral with  non-serious attack while supposedly being fodder to him certainly doesn?t mean much, heard it all now. Guess Sanji?s kicks being too weak to do a damn thing to his opponent is just bad luck and couldn?t possibly indicate a noticable gap between him and Zoro...


The Perv Cook and Moss Head are doomed to be on the same level forever, constantly bickering back and forth, from now until the end of time I'm afraid.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Zoro bleeds against Kaku?s casual finger pistol in base form yet doesn?t insta-die when Kaku pulled out the big guns.


Issho (who was holding back on Zoro) =/= Kaku. Try again.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> As I said lots of assumptions and scaling Zoro?s durability to mere buildings... just when I thought it couldn?t get any more ridiculous.


I was just commenting on what Issho could do when he's still holding back against an opponent who is much stronger than Zoro.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> And note how I never even argued against the idea serious Fuji could stomp Zoro... casual Fuji can?t that?s what this is about.


Issho could wipe Zoro off the face of the planet while eating ramen  (this actually is a proven fact).


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Casual admirals can?t as proven by your very own scans unless you believe the outcome would change if Aokiji uses his weak moves repeatedly. lol


Daz Bones also blocked a slash from a casual top tier (ie Mihawk). Did Mihawk change his approach a little after that? Yup. Was the difference noticeable? No.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> As I said Blackbeard?s a moron. Don?t be one yourself you know the difference.


Stunningly powerful argument...still doesn't change the fact Blackbeard got manhandled by a half faced Whitebeard.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> If you say so.


Sabo didn't wind up in a hole in the ground choking on his own blood right after clashing with a restrained Issho...so yeah.


Dr. White said:


> For some reason Issho has it set up so no one can directly contact. But thank you for that top tier rep


You're welcome. 


Lucky Rue said:


> Out of curiosity, was it a Leone gif?


He said top tier rep. What else do you need?


----------



## Gohara (Sep 24, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

I respectfully disagree.  Besides- Garp (including prime Garp), Kong, and technically Sengoku and current Akainu would all have to be weaker than the Admirals.  So setting aside our disagreement on where Sengoku and Garp rank, I'm sure we can agree that not all 4 of those characters are weaker than the Admirals.

@ Tenma.

That was only in the Anime, if I remember correctly.  I'm fairly certain that in the Manga, we mainly only see Sengoku sending them flying with a shockwave.  We see blood coming out of them, and them looking to be in pain.  After that, we don't see any of their fight.  Garp's involvement was also Anime only.

I wouldn't claim it as an outlier either way.  I would just say that it's not much of an indication that Sengoku is only as strong as or weaker than the Admirals.  If I factored that in as evidence of such, then I would also have to factor in Skypiea Zoro blocking Aokiji's blow. 

Rayleigh is like a father to Shanks.  Prime Rayleigh is very likely to be stronger than the Admirals IMO.

@ Ryuksgelus.

With all due respect, that's essentially just your opinion.  There's no proof that your personal rankings of them are "reality", other than that they are really your opinions.

I'm not sure what numbers I would give those characters exactly, but I actually don't think there's as big of a difference between characters as you seem to.  One reason I enjoy One Piece is because of the IMO seemingly small differences in power by comparison to other major fighting Shonen series.  In One Piece, simply being a level above another doesn't necessarily mean the stronger character would defeat the weaker character with no to low difficulty, like it may in some other major fighting Shonen series.  At least, that's how I see it.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara still with the long posts


----------



## trance (Sep 24, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Starkiller.
> 
> I respectfully disagree.  Besides- Garp (including prime Garp), Kong, and technically Sengoku and current Akainu would all have to be weaker than the Admirals.  So setting aside our disagreement on where Sengoku and Garp rank, I'm sure we can agree that not all 4 of those characters are weaker than the Admirals.



Nope. I said *Sengoku* and *old Garp* being stronger than them is baseless and it is. It's nothing but your delusional fanfiction. It has much less weight than "any of the Logia trio > Sengoku". 

How does it make you feel to be a delusional dreamer?


----------



## Coruscation (Sep 25, 2014)

Sabo knocks Luffy's lights out, at the absolute most with mid difficulty. 

Given his strong COA he can most likely resist Law's cuts, and given that, he can most likely beat up Luffy and Law together as well simply due to the large gap in speed and offensive/defensive power between them. We've seen how well Doflamingo can block and endure Luffy and Sanji's attacks and Sabo is a more physical fighter as well as in many's opinion stronger in general. He can overwhelm Law easily in close combat, endure most anything Luffy can throw without much issue, and dish out on both hardened Dragon and pipe blows that make Oni Take look like a child with a stick.

He would probably be able to beat the M3 together. They may have great teamwork and spirit and it's 3v1, but it's going to be a bit like Lucci fighting three Frankys. Their attacks will barely if at all hurt him through his Haki defenses, any hit they suffer will deal heavy damage, and he is faster than them.


----------



## batman22wins (Sep 25, 2014)

I just never get how people can be such fanboys and bias. Luffy is not on Sabo level. It's like people make stuff up in their minds no matter what's shown to fanboy over their favorite character. Doffy fans with him being Admiral level and Luffy fans with him being equal to Sabo at this point in the story.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 25, 2014)

@ Starkiller.

My apologies for the confusion.  I didn't mean to imply that you had said anything other than that- but rather that Blake has a good point.  The Admirals being the absolute strongest individuals in the marines would- at all times- make them more powerful than Garp (both old and prime), Kong, and technically Sengoku and current Akainu.  Not just as powerful as them, but more powerful than them.

Either way, that doesn't lead me to believe that the Admirals are Yonkou level.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Sep 25, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Ryuksgelus.
> 
> With all due respect, that's essentially just your opinion.  There's no proof that your personal rankings of them are "reality", other than that they are really your opinions.
> 
> I'm not sure what numbers I would give those characters exactly, but I actually don't think there's as big of a difference between characters as you seem to.  One reason I enjoy One Piece is because of the IMO seemingly small differences in power by comparison to other major fighting Shonen series.  In One Piece, simply being a level above another doesn't necessarily mean the stronger character would defeat the weaker character with no to low difficulty, like it may in some other major fighting Shonen series.  At least, that's how I see it.




All statements are opinions. I don't know why you keep stating something so obvious. Some are more valid than others. Problem is you either don't notice or ignore all the clues that suggest the gap actually is fairly wide. So it's very strange when you ask for the reasons you're not going to pay attention to.

How can anyone discuss with you if your going to disregard, not understand, or purposely reinterpret information that doesn't go along with your opinions then even make up excuses for why the evidence is against you? I'm pretty sure anything I post you fully intend to look at a different way even before you read it. Sounds like in your version of OP Luffy will barely grow into PK and power levels will plateau relatively soon and remain static for hundreds of chapter.

Don Chinjao shows us the road to the top is still very long. Garp beat Prime Chinjao. Luffy needed G3 and downward momentum just to narrowly beat old flat head Chinjao. How is this not an obvious large power-difference :/? Only way you can't see the huge difference is if you, for some odd reason, think being retired 30 years barely degraded Chinjao's stats. Old Flathead Chin can still match other High-tiers blows with his fists and head. 

Yet young Flathead Chin cannot even dent the ice his cone head can split for miles and miles. That means an Elephant Gun may at best make a small crater in the Ice(disregarding how much more physically powerful Young Chin would be over his old self). Unless for some reason you see some astronomic difference between Chin and Luffy that you somehow don't see with Luffy and the Admirals :/. Garp could obviously make a giant crater in the Ice since he beat Prime Chin. EG barely scratching vs. Garp's fist leaving a crater in the Ice like Fuji's meteorite did. Seems completely obvious the gap is not a marginal one.

Do you even know how the destructive capacity scale works. Luffy and other M.Trio people are only Mid-town level at best with their strongest attacks. Top tiers do town level feats with their basic attacks(see Fuji's first meteor or Sabo's Hiken). Garp(who still was actually 6 years away from his Prime Roger rivaling self) and Prime Chinjao are obviously Mountain level using their serious attacks. That is 2-3 levels above what it takes all Luffy's might to achieve. They obviously have the endurance&durability to take what they dish out. The only stat you can't obviously see a big difference in is in speed but it is still there if you look hard enough.

Are you now going to ask how we arrived at these figures or just going to disregard them as fanfiction even though all it is is analyzing what Oda actually shows us each tier consistently doing?


----------



## Gohara (Sep 25, 2014)

-Not necessarily.  There are many assertions one can factually make.  There aren't many that can be made in this specific debate, but either way you stated them in a factual sense, even stating that what you said is "reality".

-Disagreeing with your interpretations of events and clues doesn't necessarily mean I'm ignoring them or failing to notice them.

-What makes you say I'm intentionally throwing out different interpretations than you?  I respect your views, but anyone can just say that.

-That's not how I view it.  I don't think Luffy will reach the bottom of Yonkou level for at least a few more major Arcs, and then I think it will take at least another couple major Arcs after that for him to be Pirate King level.

-If you mean Chinjao questioning if Luffy can defeat the Yonkou and Admirals, that was before the former knew much about the latter's strength.  From old Chinjao's perspective at the time, Luffy was weaker than him.  Naturally, if Luffy were weaker than old Chinjao, he would be quite far away from Admiral level and even more so (IMO) Yonkou level.  At any rate, I respectfully disagree that Luffy barely defeated old Chinjao.  I would actually say the former defeated the latter with around mid difficulty at most.  Since a big part of your point is that prime Chinjao > current Luffy a little > old Chinjao, this changes a lot of the expansion of your point from my perspective.  I believe that current Luffy is quite a bit more powerful than old Chinjao, and would estimate the former to be more powerful than prime Chinjao.  While that estimation is largely a guess, I'm also basing it on how much power I perceive Rayleigh to have lost going from his prime to old age.

-A battle worn Luffy, while having the disadvantage of being in water, destroyed Noah- which is half the size of Fishman Island.  It's quite possible Luffy either is or is about to grow to be even stronger than that, and it's unlikely we've seen him use all of his techniques.  At his full power and full health- with no disadvantages- he can likely do significantly more than that.

-Well how one comes to those figures is naturally relevant.  If I did ask you that, it would be a perfectly valid question.  Me asking that doesn't mean you can't give a valid answer, but it's still a perfectly valid question either way.  I will note that we didn't actually see Garp destroy those mountains, so we don't know how long it took him to destroy them (for instance- did he destroy them all in one attack each in quick time or did he destroy them after many attacks over the course of weeks of training?).  Besides that, I believe prime Garp to be significantly above Admiral level.  If I'm not mistaken, Chinjao was never stated/implied to have destroyed mountains, but rather that he cracked ice.  I could be wrong, though.

A lot of this, of course, is just IMO.


----------



## batman22wins (Sep 25, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -Not necessarily.  There are many assertions one can factually make.  There aren't many that can be made in this specific debate, but either way you stated them in a factual sense, even stating that what you said is "reality".
> 
> -Disagreeing with your interpretations of events and clues doesn't necessarily mean I'm ignoring them or failing to notice them.
> 
> ...



Yes in your ridiculous opinion.  Prime Chinjao cracked a continent size ice berg. I don't get how you comprehend Luffy to be Sabo level. Oda is someone who leaves hints and he clearly showed has kids Sabo was keeping up with Ace and Luffy was behind. Sabo is already 2nd in command of the rev army. Luffy is currently getting wrecked by a clone of Doffy while getting help from Law. If Law wasn't there he would be fighting Two Doffy and spring boy. Luffy would of never got a free hit in. Hewould currently be fighting 3 people with his hands tied behind his back.

Luffy is still not close to Admirals. It will take at least two more arcs or another power up similar to gears to compete. Sabo was struggling with a none serious admiral and Fuji has yet to get a scratch on him this entire arc. Sabo would beat probably mid diff at this point in the story and Sabo just got a power up too. Sabo was probably already stronger then Luffy even before he ate the fruit. He made quick wrk of Burgess who finished his block the fastest out of every one. Sabo is hyped to be the 2nd strongest in the revolution Army and just got a Power up.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Sep 25, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -If you mean Chinjao questioning if Luffy can defeat the Yonkou and Admirals, that was before the former knew much about the latter's strength.  From old Chinjao's perspective at the time, Luffy was weaker than him.  Naturally, if Luffy were weaker than old Chinjao, he would be quite far away from Admiral level and even more so (IMO) Yonkou level.  At any rate, I respectfully disagree that Luffy barely defeated old Chinjao.  I would actually say the former defeated the latter with around mid difficulty at most.  [BSi]nce a big part of your point is that prime Chinjao > current Luffy a little > old Chinjao,[/B] this changes a lot of the expansion of your point from my perspective.  I believe that current Luffy is quite a bit more powerful than old Chinjao, and would estimate the former to be more powerful than prime Chinjao.  While that estimation is largely a guess, I'm also basing it on how much power I perceive Rayleigh to have lost going from his prime to old age.



Not sure what the first part of this paragraph has to do with anything I said. I'm talking strictly feats not characters portrayals.

Are you kidding? We're talking the final clash, not the entire fight. Luffy won in a contest of power but it was obviously close close. They were also equal in physical strength as shown in the beginning of the fight. Prime DCJ is a lot stronger Luffy or did you miss the line about Garp training to defeat him by taking out 8 mountains. Prime Chin's head is a mountain level feat so there is no reason to think Garp meant Pica sized hills or that it was even done with a flurry of punches. No, most likely Garp did a King's punch style attack that obliterated a mountain and narrowly beat Prime DCJ head. This was Garp 6 years before he started fighting Roger so he only got stronger.  

In short Prime Chin is a lot stronger than current Luffy. You cannot compare DCJ who lost his greatest weapon and lost his resolve to Rayleigh who never had his will shattered. Moriah is a better comparison. DCJ degradation is large and obvious. He had Mountain busting attack power 30 years ago. Old Chinjao only has lower mid-town level attack power. Prime Chin is a mountain/city buster because he split the ice. That ice is harder than steel and even PX metal(or do you think Old Chin can bust a PX like Sanji can :/) yet young Chin can't come close to scratching it. 




> -A battle worn Luffy, while having the disadvantage of being in water, destroyed Noah- which is half the size of Fishman Island.  It's quite possible Luffy either is or is about to grow to be even stronger than that, and it's unlikely we've seen him use all of his techniques.  At his full power and full health- with no disadvantages- he can likely do significantly more than that.



Luffy was not in water, but in the bubble, when he partially destroyed Noah and that is with EGG, aka a barrage of multi-block busting attacks over a period of 3 minutes. That does not compare to people who can output the same level of power with their low or mid level attacks.  It's honestly an endurance feat more than anything as Luffy would never EGG an enemy for  2 minutes straight.



> -Well how one comes to those figures is naturally relevant.  *If I did ask you that, it would be a perfectly valid question.  *Me asking that doesn't mean you can't give a valid answer, but it's still a perfectly valid question either way. * I will note that we didn't actually see Garp destroy those mountains*, so we don't know how long it took him to destroy them (for instance- did he destroy them all in one attack each in quick time or did he destroy them after many attacks over the course of weeks of training?).  Besides that,* I believe prime Garp to be significantly above Admiral level. * If I'm not mistaken, Chinjao was never stated/implied to have destroyed mountains, but rather that he cracked ice.  I could be wrong, though.



My point is if you frequent this site or ones like it you should be familiar with such terms and figures. If you don't then it brings into question how you arrive to your opinions and how can you disagree with all these people coming at you when if you don't' even understand where their opinions are coming from. For example if you don't even understand the significance of dropping from Low-Mountain level to Mid-town level then how can you grasp the difference between Old Chin, Prime Chin, and current Luffy that everyone else sees?

Significantly? Top tiers are all clearly close to one another in strength except in extreme cases like Prime Garp vs. Vista, Jozu, or Marco. How on earth do you come to the idea their are significant gaps among Admirals and Yonkou but don't see the incredibly obvious gaps between Luffy and even Doflamingo, let alone an Admiral? 

You really don't make any sense and no one can determine where you opinions are coming from. The difference between Luffy and Old DCJ&Bastile is relatively small. Smaller than Luffy and Doflamingo. Gap between Doflamingo and Sabo is even bigger. Fuji just showed another large gap to fill still as not even Sabo was enough to get him serious.

Honestly to get back on topic Luffy is much weaker than Sabo because Sabo's Hiken is a low city level attack. Hiken is as casual as it gets with the Mera-Mera. His Dragon attacks and Pipe would then logically fall into the town level range. In other words his strikes are at worst on par with attacks like Grizzly Magnum. Logically more powerful because why would his physical skills be like 1/5 as weak as his fire powers? Do you not grasp that Luffy could not handle the tourney finals and that is why Oda switched him with Sabo? Hiken or his pipe decimate Luffy. If Dofla can overpower Luffy in a physical confrontation then Sabo will be causing much greater damage when he smashes Luffy. Bastille *was* an example of what such a confrontation would look like. How weak do you think Bastille is? Not even Sanji level? Hody level? Just a little stronger than a Pacifista :/?


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## Gohara (Sep 25, 2014)

@ batman.

-That too is just your own interpretation.  It's no different than just you saying you disagree.

-Yes, prime Chinjao cracked ice.  I never disagreed with that.

-I said he could be around Sabo's level or end up around Sabo's level by the end of this Arc depending on how strong Sabo is exactly.  I've basically already explained why I view this as a possibility.

-Yes, but as the main character Luffy likely progresses faster than anyone else.  The more time that goes by, the closer Luffy is going to get to Sabo.  Luffy will be significantly stronger at around the age of 22 than Sabo is right now.  That means before 22, he will reach Sabo's current level of power.  Luffy will likely reach Sabo's current level of power at his current age.

-Luffy is currently losing to Doflamingo, I agree.  However, as I said, Luffy will likely defeat Doflamingo in this Arc.  If Doflamingo gets the best of Luffy in this Arc, then I will readjust my estimation of Luffy's level of power.

-I respectfully disagree that Luffy isn't close to Admiral level.  One of the main reasons Rayleigh trained Luffy was so that way an invasion like what happened on Sabaody would happen again.  In other words, around 6 months ago, Luffy was at a level that Rayleigh must have felt was capable of fending off such an invasion.  That invasion consisted of Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  I can't see Luffy not being close to the league of Admirals and yet being able to fend off Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  Yet, that was Luffy around 6 months ago.  Coming into post time skip he was even stronger, and he may be stronger now than he was coming into post time skip, or may be stronger by the end of this Arc than he was coming into post time skip.  If current Luffy was still not close to Admiral level, that would defeat one of the main purposes of Rayleigh training him for around a year and a half and the around 6 months of training Luffy went through after that.

-I respectfully disagree that Sabo was struggling to that degree.  We don't know that Sabo used any more of his own power than Fujitora used of his.

@ Ryuksgelus.

-The fight starts out with Base Luffy clashing equally with Chinjao.  The next time we see them fighting, Chinjao goes to hit Luffy, but the latter dodges.  Chinjao then attacks Base Luffy, but the latter blocks it with difficulty.  The next time we see them fighting, Base Luffy damages Chinjao with Hawk Rifle.  Luffy then defeats Chinjao using Thor Elephant Gun in Gear 3rd.  Luffy was dealt no notable damage, and won in a relatively short fight in which he mostly fought him in his Base form.

-We don't know how much difficulty prime Garp had against prime Chinjao, but it didn't sound like it was much.  I'm fairly certain we even see Garp defeating him pretty easily.  We also don't know how strong Garp was at the time.  What makes you say prime Chinjao cracking ice means he can destroy a mountain?  We also don't know what size mountains Garp destroyed, and again we don't know how long and how many attacks it took him to do that.  I think you're putting too much stock in the labels you're giving characters that are not only based on interpretations of what Garp did (the difference between the least amount he did to those mountains and what you're saying is massive), but also likely off of real life science/physics calculations.  Even if we assume real life science/physics calculations apply to Manga/Anime (which I don't believe they do- this is a series where normal humans or borderline normal humans can dodge lightning and "light speed" can take a handful of seconds to travel far less than a mile), the extreme lack of information we have on Garp's mountain feat makes said calculations pretty unreliable.  There's a massive range in what could be the case based on what Garp did exactly.  In short, I don't think all of that is enough to rightfully conclude that prime Chinjao is stronger than Luffy.  There's a possibility that he is, but I personally find it more convincing to go by examples of other characters who have lost power due to old age.

-Yes, but he still had to reach out through handicapped circumstances, including being battle worn.  He could very likely do significantly more damage if he was up close on land and used his full power while at full health.  Plus, and again, Noah is half the size of Fishman Island.  So, I believe Luffy at full power and full health goes far beyond just being capable of destroying blocks/midtowns.  Besides, we've seen Kuma cause much more destruction than old Rayleigh.  Yet, I would say old Rayleigh is stronger than Kuma.

-Well, I am aware that this site often uses calculations- but they are often based on applying real life science/physics to Manga/Anime, which I again don't agree with.  Even if I did, I've seen a lot of calculations on this forum be up for debate, yet sometimes even when they're up for debate some members take said calculations as "official".  However, I was not aware of the specific reasoning as to your view points of this debate.  Thus, I don't think it would be unreasonable for me to ask how you came to the conclusion you have, although I would only mean to ask that in a respectful way- not in a way where I'm saying you clearly should not have come to such conclusions.  Even setting all this aside, I can name examples of characters with less destructive feats so far that are more powerful than characters with more destructive feats so far.

-Again, I don't believe the Admirals are in the same tier as the Yonkou, which I believe prime Garp to be in.  So, I do believe that prime Garp is significantly above Admiral level or at least most Admirals.  I'm not really concerned with how many people agree or disagree with either side of this debate, but to respond to you saying "No one has any idea where your opinion is coming from"- again, this is the only community I go to where a handful of people believe Admirals to be in the same tier as the Yonkou.  I've been to several chats/forums to discuss One Piece and know quite a few One Piece fans outside of the internet- and excluding any member of this forum I literally only know around a few people at most who believe the Admirals are in the same tier as the Yonkou.  I'm not saying this serves as evidence of my beliefs here, nor am I saying that they serve as counter evidence to any of your beliefs here, but saying "Some people on this forum disagree with you" also doesn't serve as evidence even if the amount of people that agree with something really mattered here.

-Luffy will likely defeat Doflamingo by the end of this Arc, but again if he doesn't then I will happily readjust my view on the former's level of power.


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## batman22wins (Sep 25, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ batman.
> 
> -That too is just your own interpretation.  It's no different than just you saying you disagree.
> 
> ...



Anybody can have a opinion, doesn't mean the it can't be ridiculous

- Continent ice

-  I doubt Luffy passes Sabo even if he beats Flamingo. Sabo who was already above Luffy just got a power up and is learning how to control it. Sabo Is already one of the best Haki user we have seen. I don't get this nonsense about if Luffy beat Flamingo(Luffy has already gotten massive help and more is probably on the way with Bart and Cavendish.  Yes Luffy will end up has the strongest at the end. Sabo has a great growth rate too. He Low diff his entire block that featured Burgess and then got a power up for his efforts. Luffy will eventually pass him through at his current age I agree.

- Yes Luffy is closer to a admiral then pre timeskip Luffy. Also FI Luffy isn't current Luffy. The SH get stronger every arc. What would change if FI Luffy would of been on SA? Luffy would do better, but soon has the admiral show up he getting low-mid diff. Sabo who is stronger then Luffy couldn't put a scratch on a non serious Fuji who was joking around this entire arc. Nobody on this entire island has made Fuji even sweat or. Pant. Luffy still has a few arcs to reach Admiral level after this arc. Which is why Oda set up Zou, Wano etc... I think 2-4 arcs Luffy will be giving these guys high-extreme fights. The gap is definitely there. Kuzan froze Doffy in a instant with his hands in his pocket and could of attacked him while he was frozen, but stood their. I don't get how you are underrating Admirals. Admirals and WB/Garp have the best feats so far.


- This is where your reading comprehension needs work and probably why you are in the minority in this topic. Sabo clearly states that Fuji isn't being serious with him even through Sabo is Panting. He didn't understand why and why would Sabo use his Dragon claw and Hiken on Fodders, but someone way above that level he doesn't. Another support ing thing to hammer home the point by Oda is him using Maynard to say why didn't Fuji beat Sabo and that's after knowing Sabo status. It seems you want to disregard things that's obvious.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 26, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ batman.@ Ryuksgelus.
> 
> -The fight starts out with Base Luffy clashing equally with Chinjao.  The next time we see them fighting, Chinjao goes to hit Luffy, but the latter dodges.  Chinjao then attacks Base Luffy, but the latter blocks it with difficulty.  The next time we see them fighting, Base Luffy damages Chinjao with Hawk Rifle.  Luffy then defeats Chinjao using Thor Elephant Gun in Gear 3rd.  Luffy was dealt no notable damage, and won in a relatively short fight in which he mostly fought him in his Base form.



What are you talking about once again? I am speaking only of the final clash. What do you mean base. They clashed with hardened fists coming to a complete stalemate. If luffy used G2+Hardening just to clash with another guy's punch then that definitely means he is far away from the Admirals. 

All we saw were snippets of a longer fight where Luffy is tired and bruised. If DCJ didn't get overconfident and clash with Luffy directly then the fight would have dragged on even longer. Luffy had no true advantage until the suicidal charge. That is why he brought out Thor in the first place. His light, medium, and even heavier attacks did not work.



> -We don't know how much difficulty prime Garp had against prime Chinjao, but it didn't sound like it was much. * I'm fairly certain we even see Garp defeating him pretty easily. * We also don't know how strong Garp was at the time.  *What makes you say prime Chinjao cracking ice means he can destroy a mountain?  We also don't know what size mountains Garp destroyed,* and again we don't know how long and how many attacks it took him to do that.
> 
> *There's a massive range in what could be the case based on what Garp did exactly. * In short, I don't think all of that is enough to rightfully conclude that prime Chinjao is stronger than Luffy.  *There's a possibility that he is, but I personally find it more convincing to go by examples of other characters who have lost power due to old age.*



It was the exact same scenario. Two powerful techniques clashing against one another where Garp narrowly won. That is why his face is strained. So where is this we don't know what difficulty stuff coming from? The diff is kinda beyond the point and we see it quite clearly anyway. 

Asking that means you don't know what I'm talking about. Mountain level means DCJ and Garp pack enough the kinetic energy behind their attacks to match the tnt equivalent necessary to level a mountain. Garp beat DCJ so it must have been an Mountain. *Not a large hill* or he'd have lost to DCJ. You're basically saying you only believe what you see and can't or refuse to make basic inferences. If Garp beat someone in a power contest then obviously he can do what that person can do with their power.

No there is not because DCJ gives us the bare minimum to figure out Garps feat. And stop this real life physics can't be applied shit. It's a straight forward feat that someone decided to analyze. It just so happens people in the same range of power consistently have the same kind of accomplishments. Coincidence or not it's a pattern persistent for over 700 chapters. Honestly blowing off calcs is just a cop-out. Characters do something and someone went ahead and calculated what would be needed to accomplish such feats. Other odd clearly impossible or strange events occurring in the series are irrelevant. It doesn't take away at all from what DCJ or someone else does in a particular scene. Though I see some flawed interpretations of what Kizaru, Enel, and Nami can do. Lighting speeds vary and people talk in high speed moments all the time in fiction. 

Then you're now people purposely being ignorant by ignoring the completely different circumstances and context of Rayleigh's retirement and DCJ's. So what level is Garp to you then is the question? Problem is you don't really have a scale you or I can reference. You just arbitrarily decide how large you want to view the gaps. Admirals and Yokou=big, Batille/DCJ and Luffy= big. Admirals/Sabo and Luffy=relatively small :/? You're now trying to tell me Prime Chin and Old Chin are not much different because of Rayleigh :/.

That makes absolutely no sense. You're bringing in an entirely unrelated variable(rayleigh) instead of just directly comparing two versions of the same character :/. Prime broke harder than steel ice for upwards of 2 miles. That means rock, wood, and normal metals are being split far more easily. Flathead can't even dent said Ice but can crush stone and injure people like Luffy. It's incredibly straight forward *even if* you want to continue believing Old and Young Chin vary only mildly in base stats. 




> -Yes, but he still had to reach out through handicapped circumstances, including being battle worn.  He could very likely do significantly more damage if he was up close on land and used his full power while at full health.  Plus, and again, Noah is half the size of Fishman Island.  So, *I believe Luffy at full power and full health goes far beyond just being capable of destroying blocks/midtowns. * Besides, *we've seen Kuma cause much more destruction than old Rayleigh.*  Yet, I would say old Rayleigh is stronger than Kuma.



Noah is also made out of tough wood. So by your comment on blocks you don't seem to understand what tnt equivalents mean. If Noah was a different material Luffy would not have destroyed half of it because each individual EG punch would be taking out smaller chunks of it. 

Not really following how being fresh would change anything except let Luffy punch a bit faster. You're also still ignoring it took Luffy over a 1 minute to do this. Luffy would never punch someone for that long in a real fight so the Noah feat isn't really a good indicator of Luffy's real or possible destructive capacity. You'd get ridiculous results from Akainu or Kizaru do if you wanted to give him 1-3 minutes worth of free hits with a Laser or Magma Meteorite barrage.

Wow, that is completely not how it works :/. Rayleigh is a swordsman. That means he has more _concentrated_ power behind his cuts than Kuma does in an attack such as Ursa Shock.



> -Well, I am aware that this site often uses calculations- but they are often based on applying *real life science/physics to Manga/Anime, *which I again don't agree with.  Even if I did, I've seen a lot of calculations on this forum be up for debate, yet sometimes even when they're up for debate some members take said calculations as "official".  However, I was not aware of the specific reasoning as to your view points of this debate.  Thus, I don't think it would be unreasonable for me to ask how you came to the conclusion you have, although I would only mean to ask that in a respectful way- not in a way where I'm saying you clearly should not have come to such conclusions.  Even setting all this aside, *I can name examples of characters with less destructive feats so far that are more powerful than characters with more destructive feats so far*.



And* if* it works it works. This argument has never made any sense. Sabo blows a hole through the Coliseum bottom. Someone then estimated the depth and width of the hole. Determined whether the rock was incinerated or fragmented from the concussive force(it was mostly the former). Then judged what would be needed to achieve such a feat. What is wrong with that? Not asking the flaw with the method(obviously it will be flawed due to numerous variables by that vary due to unavoidable inconsistencies like the size of the ring), but the idea of doing this in the first place? 

And you'd be wasting your time since you'd probably bring up area an attack level, not the _actual energy _levels to achieve whatever happened. Or bringing up the few inconsistent feats in a long running series. What would be your purpose in doing so? To suggest we throw out our scales completely that show a fairly large difference in what Sabo&Fuji can easily accomplish and what it takes Luffy most of his might can accomplish? That makes no sense, How does suddenly applying a number to a feat mean it didn't happen? I cannot even follow this logic. 



> -Again,* I don't believe the Admirals are in the same tier as the Yonkou,* which I believe prime Garp to be in.  So, I do believe that prime Garp is significantly above Admiral level or at least most Admirals.  I'm not really concerned with how many people agree or disagree with either side of this debate, but to respond to you saying "No one has any idea where your opinion is coming from"- again, this is the only community I go to where a handful of people believe Admirals to be in the same tier as the Yonkou.  I've been to several chats/forums to discuss One Piece and know quite a few One Piece fans outside of the internet- and excluding any member of this forum I literally only know around a few people at most who believe the Admirals are in the same tier as the Yonkou.  I'm not saying this serves as evidence of my beliefs here, nor am I saying that they serve as counter evidence to any of your beliefs here, but saying "Some people on this forum disagree with you" also doesn't serve as evidence even if the amount of people that agree with something really mattered here.



It wasn't Prime Garp that defeated Chin. Garp was years away from confronting Roger where he logically got even stronger. That means this Garp is actually this ridiculous hypothetical level you place the Admirals at. I don't believe Admirals are _Yonkou _level either but they are still top tiers and the difference is relatively miniscule in the grand scheme of things. Except for when they are on opposite ends of the spectrum, every top tier can put up a fight against one another. It is the Admirals' job to fight Yonkou.



> -Luffy will likely defeat Doflamingo by the end of this Arc, but again if he doesn't then I will happily readjust my view on the former's level of power.



With Law's help and a healthy amount of plot protection. Not because he was faster, stronger, more powerful, and smarter than Doffy. Doffy already endured one of his strongest attacks unprotected that he only landed with help. 

You essentially dodged my final points and did try to disregard how many of us came to our conclusions. Sabo is more powerful and tougher than Luffy to a large degree. It's very visible, suddenly applying a number doesn't invalidate the obvious difference. It simply gives us a way to more concretely catalog what different characters can do.


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## Gohara (Sep 26, 2014)

@ batman.

-Yes, but again your perception of it is also based on interpretation.

-I don't think it's entirely clear how Sabo and Luffy compared to each other coming into this Arc.  I'm not sure Sabo was notably stronger than Luffy, if at all.  Even if he was, it's possible Luffy is about to get stronger to defeat Doflamingo.  There are too many unclear variables for there to be a clear view on the matter.

-I looked up their conversation, and don't see where Sabo states that Fujitora is holding back.  We know that Sabo was panting, but we don't know that Fujitora wasn't panting throughout any point of their fight, as we didn't see much of it.  However, even if we count that against Sabo, that would only show Fujitora having a slight edge.  Fujitora compliments Sabo's level of power, and even groans when Sabo attacks him:

Fujitora: Hnghhh!!!

Maynard is prideful towards Fujitora.  It wouldn't be much different than the Donquixote Pirates finding Doflamingo to be unbeatable.  I could also point to the other marines saying that Sabo and Fujitora are too injured to continue fighting each other.  We don't know enough about Sabo's and Fujitora's abilities to rightfully say how much of their own power they used.  Their fight didn't make it clear which of the two is stronger than the other, and if anything just portrayed them to be around the same level of power IMO.

@ Ryuksgelus.

-Base as in without his Gears.  He was fighting throughout a good portion of the fight without any of his Gears, and was still fighting on par with old Chinjao.  Once he used Gear 3rd, he won in one blow.  Luffy barely tried anything else, so we don't know that's what he needed to do in order to win.  It, at best, might be what he needed to do if he wanted to win in one blow- but even that is not clearly the case.

-If I remember correctly, Garp defeated Chinjao in one blow, and didn't take any notable damage against him.  Even if he had, we don't know how strong Garp was at that point in time.

-All this just goes into real life science/physics calculations, so I'll respond to it in just this one point.  I'm not using this as a cop out.  I'm pretty consistent in how I view application of science/physics in fiction.  I don't use them when they could be of benefit to my arguments, because I don't believe they apply to Manga/Anime.  The reason I don't believe this is simply because we're talking about unrealistic universes that ignore science/physics on a regular basis.  If we're going to use real life science/physics to make calculations, then we must accept real life science/physics in all aspects.  In other words, normal humans are actually capable of dodging lightning.  Light speed in One Piece legitimately takes a handful of seconds to travel far less than a mile.  Any version of Blackbeard with the Darkness Fruit can defeat the rest of the One Piece characters combined, since he can just create a black hole.  However, if we accept these as fact, then it pretty much loses the meaning of going by real life science/physics in the first place.  If we accept things that contradict real life science/physics, then that takes away the whole basis of the calculations you are going by in the first place.  Since we know light speed in One Piece is nothing like light speed in real life, how do we know the amount of energy required to take out mountains in Manga/Anime as opposed to destroying a city block?  We wouldn't know, because the foundation has been contradicted through other instance.  In addition to that, you agree that there are variables that we can't factually know that we still involve in the calculations anyways.  To top it all off, we still don't know what size mountains Garp can destroy nor how long it took him to destroy them.  There are so many variables that we don't factually know, that we literally could write down a bunch of guesses and stick them in a hat, and we'd have just as much of a chance as drawing out the correct interpretation as we would coming to the correct conclusion based on highly unreliable variables as well as application of real life science/physics in Manga/Anime.  I would only include what Oda has established, such as lightning not doing much to Luffy.  We have to remember that Mangakas are not scientists, nor are they physicists.  I find it more convincing to go by what the Mangaka likely intended and how much destruction one can cause than going by calculations revolving around energy it may take to destroy something in real life and assuming that it's the case in One Piece as well.  Using consistency of power levels (in other words saying that characters of the same level can coincidentally accomplish the same things) assumes that your interpretation of characters' level of power is accurate in the first place- which we don't know to be the case, and it is likely that you arrived to many of those conclusions based on some of those calculations anyways.  Having said all that, I am not going to say that you going by real life science/physics is flat out incorrect.  If you want to still go by them, then I'll just chalk it down as a difference in philosophy in how we should pinpoint power levels.  I do not think I am at all unjustified in viewing all of this the way I do, though.

-Both Rayleigh and Chinjao retired and (presumably in Chinjao's case) stopped being as active as they were before.

-How big the difference between the Yonkou and the Admirals is depends on the Yonkou and Admiral being compared.  Generally speaking, yes, I do think there's a relatively big difference between them.  However, I can potentially see pre time skip Akainu giving Big Mam mid to high difficulty (assuming that Big Mam is the weakest Yonkou).  I don't view Bastille and old Chinjao as being on the same level of power.  I believe old Chinjao to be at least a league above Bastille.

-I already responded to your points on real life science/physics being applied to Manga/Anime.  As for the difference Luffy being fresh would make, it would allow him to pack more power behind his punches.

-Mihawk also has far superior destructive feats to old Rayleigh.

-I respectfully disagree that it's the Admirals' job alone to fight the Yonkou.  It's the World Government's job as a whole to do so.

-It can also be said that Doflamingo has had Bellamy's (indirect) and Trebol's help.


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## November (Sep 26, 2014)

*TL;DR*


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## batman22wins (Sep 26, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ batman.
> 
> -Yes, but again your perception of it is also based on interpretation.
> 
> ...



I'm going after what Oda shows Idk what your doing.

-Oda showed Luffy has a kid losing to Ace and Sabo. Luffy has a adult continued to be behind Ace. No reason for to believe otherwise for Sabo introduction. Sabo also got a power up in this arc already. He made Burgess who is the only one to finish his block fast without any damage and from a Yonkou crew look foolish.

-Groans You can't be serious and Sabo had damage and this was all with Fuji not being serious.   Sabo stating at the end that he should at least get him to be that serious. What Sabo doesn't know tho is Fuji was playing 'fool' the entire time. He doesn't like the warlords.

Bro what are you talking about. Fuji wasn't being serious. He had no intention of stopping Luffy and crew. I'm serious lt beginning to think your trying to play devils advocate or something to go against the grain. How the hell are they too injured to fight each other. Fuji doesn't have a stratcg on him. Stop the BS bro. Bastille and Maynard have both been question ing his actions and us readers already know that he hates the warlords and doesn't like how things are being done. Oda is going to randomly make two vice admiral s question him for no reason. We the readers already know from the Doffy talk that Fuji isn't really on Doffy side. The next panel he is seeing Beting on Luffy. This is what I'm talking about your ignoring shit and trying to make it seeem like you actually have some point which you don't.

- We know Garp was destroying mountain s and stopping a continent splitting headbutt from a prime Chinjao.

- Idk what your talking about. You just wrote some long ass excuse cause you can't answer Ryuksgelus points. I'm pretty sure Oda knows what's bigger between a town and a mountain.

Doffy has been fighting too and Doffy powers allows him to control bellemy. He not getting help. Luffy got a free red Hawk to the chest of Doffy. Then he got raped by a clone.


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## Gohara (Sep 26, 2014)

-Going by the events in the Manga often involves interpretation.

-Right, but that was a kid and pre time skip.  I don't think how they compared as children and pre time skip dictates how they compare now.  Luffy likely progresses at a faster rate than they do, and was trained by old Rayleigh during the time skip.  We don't know enough about the participants in Block A to quantify Burgess' feat of winning his Block in the tournament the fastest.  I do agree that Sabo seemed to be well above Burgess' level even by that point, but it's very possible that the same could be said for the Luffy coming into this Arc (it's also possible that it couldn't be said for him).

-MangaHelpers says Fujitora says that, and that he says:

Fujitora: Very good!! // I?d be disappointed if you didn?t do this much!!

However, even in the translation you're referencing and your interpretation that it was Sabo talking, he doesn't say what "this serious" is.  He doesn't say how much Fujitora is holding back, nor does he indicate how much of his own power he was using.

I'm merely saying that fight didn't give us a clear indication of who is stronger between the two.  You may have formed your own conclusion already and may be convinced of that, but that doesn't mean the conclusion you came to is clearly correct.

While it could potentially be argued that Fujitora was psychologically restricted because of his true intentions, the same could be said about Sabo when it comes to him just trying to figure out what Fujitora is up to.

I just said what Maynard said.  

-Yes, but we know very little about that feat from Garp.  We don't know how long it took him to do that, how many blows it took him to do that, and how big the mountains are.  There's a massive difference between destroying a big or even average sized mountain in one attack and punching a small mountain many times throughout the day to train and eventually destroying it.

-Like I said, I'm pretty consistent in how I view applying real life science/physics to Manga.  It's not like I just said it for this specific debate.  Oda may know that, but that doesn't mean he knows how much energy is required to destroy certain things based on actual formulas and equations.  If you're going to say real life science/physics applies to Manga/Anime- then you would have to explain how normal humans can dodge lightning and why it takes light speed a handful of seconds to travel far less than a mile, among other things.

-Bellamy being there is circumstantial.  Plus, Trebol's been there too.


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## Zeus. (Sep 26, 2014)

Gohara said:


> My apologies for the confusion.  I didn't mean to imply that you had said anything other than that- but rather that Blake has a good point.  The Admirals being the absolute strongest individuals in the marines would- at all times- make them more powerful than Garp (both old and prime), Kong, and technically Sengoku and current Akainu.  Not just as powerful as them, but more powerful than them.


That is ridiculous thinking lol. Garp was Roger's marine rival counterpart, so he was portrayed to be above that of the admirals. I'm not too sure about Kong tho. Akainu was already an admiral, and is getting stronger with the plot purpose of being Luffy's final EoS opponent.

Edit: Did you forget the fact that Garp in the past turned down numerous offers for the rank of admiral?


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## Gohara (Sep 26, 2014)

GodSmack77 said:


> Garp was Roger's marine rival counterpart, so he was portrayed to be above that of the admirals. I'm not too sure about Kong tho. Akainu was already an admiral, and is getting stronger with the plot purpose of being Luffy's final EoS opponent.



I pretty much agree with all of this, but I said technically when it comes to Akainu, because even if he was an Admiral he no longer is one.


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## Zeus. (Sep 26, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I pretty much agree with all of this, but I said technically when it comes to Akainu, because even if he was an Admiral he no longer is one.


Because he was promoted dude lol. You have to previously become an admiral before taking up the title of Fleet Admiral, so it's reasonable to say that every Fleet Admiral in history is or has been admiral level.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 27, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -Yes, but we know very little about that feat from Garp.  We don't know how long it took him to do that, how many blows it took him to do that, and how big the mountains are.  *There's a massive difference between destroying a big or even average sized mountain in one attack and punching a small mountain many times throughout the day to train and eventually destroying it*.



We know enough. You're simply being stubborn now. Chin cracked miles of ice. To beat Chin Garp would need to output more energy than is necessary to crack said Ice. It's that damn simple. Doing a calculation in this case allows us to write off the improbably scenarios. THERE IS NO WIDE RANGE to Garp's feat because we have a perfect reference with Chin. 



> -Like I said, I'm pretty consistent in how I view applying real life science/physics to Manga.  It's not like I just said it for this specific debate.  *Oda may know that, but that doesn't mean he knows how much energy is required to destroy certain things based on actual formulas and equations.*  If you're going to say real life science/physics applies to Manga/Anime- then you would have to explain how normal humans can dodge lightning and why it takes light speed a handful of seconds to travel far less than a mile, among other things.



I'll repeat this makes absolutely no sense. How does applying a number invalidate that Sabo, Garp, and Chinjao have done feats far more impressive than Luffy? Whether or not a number is applied those feats are still the same. Oda does not need to know any formula's. All Oda is doing is having characters displaying similar levels of power. It just so happens their outputs fall into a certain range when some people take the time to analyze what is going on. A pattern exists no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise.

You're just writing paragraphs to justify ignoring other other people's points and evidence right in front of you and continuing believing what you want to believe. That is the vary definition of a cop-out. You're essentially plugging your eats and saying blah blah blah. And are you just forgetting to hit enter every so often? Not to mention you bringing up irrelevancies. Teach's blackholes not behaving like actual black holes is irrelevant to Sabo blowing a hole in the Coliseum or what Chin can do.



> -Both Rayleigh and Chinjao retired and (presumably in Chinjao's case) stopped being as active as they were before.



So you're going to continue ignoring the context of their retirements. Ignoring context is again just being willfully dense because you don't want to acknowledge certain common sense things.



> -Mihawk also has far superior destructive feats to old Rayleigh.



Rayleigh *does* get scaled to Mihawk and certainly Vista. If you argue this then you're just being stubborn and willfully ignorant. Stop with this respectfully disagree stuff too. You can write politely and still an asshole which is exactly what you're doing by being so stubborn and sidestepping exactly what is presented to you.


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## Gohara (Sep 27, 2014)

@ Ryuksgelus.

-I don't think we saw the full length of the crack of the ice to say that it was miles long.  We only got a small glimpse of it.  When Chinjao's cone head is restored to it's original shape- his feat of destroying one level of flooring in the Colosseum was much less impressive than doing anything of the like to a mountain.  This is the same Chinjao that is happy he can now go back and crack the ice again.  It's also the same Chinjao that is still weaker than current Luffy, and likely by at least a good deal at that.

-This still assumes that real life science/physics applies to Manga, which again I disagree with.  However, just out of curiosity, could you post your calculations for Chinjao destroying that block of ice vs. what it requires for Chinjao to obliterate a big mountain in California?  Also, explain how you got to each step of the calculation.

-I'm not saying it invalidates your opinion.  I'm saying that Oda likely not factoring in the exact amount of energy required to do certain things means that your application of real life science/physics in Manga/Anime may not necessarily be a reliable method of making such determinations.  Once we exclude calculations- it's still a matter of interpreting those feats and how they compare to one another.  Then there's still the fact that there are plenty of comparisons in One Piece of a character so far having better feats based on calculations than others, but the character with less feats still being stronger or at least around as strong as them.

-I'm writing paragraphs to respond to your points.  I'm not sure how writing paragraphs means I'm ignoring points.  Disagreeing with points doesn't mean I'm ignoring them.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 27, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ Ryuksgelus.
> 
> *-I don't think we saw the full length of the crack of the ice to say that it was miles long. * We only got a small glimpse of it.  *When Chinjao's cone head is restored to it's original shape- his feat of destroying one level of flooring in the Colosseum was much less impressive than doing anything of the like to a mountain.*  This is the same Chinjao that is happy he can now go back and crack the ice again. * It's also the same Chinjao that is still weaker than current Luffy, and likely by at least a good deal at that*.



The partial length we saw was already a kilometer or two -_-? Once again you're going to not use common sense to downplay a clearly impressive while still pretending to be respectful? It clearly goes beyond the horizon. A few kilometers is a very conservative estimate of the length. it clearly goes farther than 1-2 kilometers. However even with that conservative estimate it's a very impressive feat.

So now you're comparing an unconscious Old Chin and a weary Chin just bowing his head to Prime Chin actually putting in effort to crack the ice Continent. Keep em coming my dude. 

It's not a good deal but are you now saying that the Ice may not be harder than PX metal and Luffy can probably crack it? it's entirely possible DCJ can crack the ice but not anywhere close to the horizon like his younger self. DCJ head is also his unique skill. Luffy doesn't just get his attack power scaled to it.



> -This still assumes that real life science/physics applies to Manga, which again I disagree with.  However, just out of curiosity, could you post your calculations for Chinjao destroying that block of ice vs. what it requires for Chinjao to obliterate a big mountain in California?  Also, explain how you got to each step of the calculation.



If something works it works. Why would we not use what we know to make our observation? You're asking me and everyone else to throw away our god given analytical skills so that you're views, which are just whatever you feel like believing, can be seen as equally valid. Sorry but your feelings of a subject do you supersede or even rival what we can 

You're once again sidestepping my question. How does suddenly adding a number invalidate the feat? You're seriously asking me now to show you the calcs. There are blogs you can look at. It is your job to research things you disagree with or don't understand. 



> -*I'm not saying it invalidates your opinion.*  I'm saying that Oda likely not factoring in the exact amount of energy required to do certain things means that your application of real life science/physics in Manga/Anime may not necessarily be a reliable method of making such determinations.  Once we exclude calculations- it's still a matter of interpreting those feats and how they compare to one another.  Then there's still the fact that there are plenty of comparisons in One Piece of a character so far having better feats based on calculations than others, but the character with less feats still being stronger or at least around as strong as them.



I didn't say anything about my opinion. It is not an opinion that blowing a hole into hundreds of meters of bedrock , incinerating the stone on the way down is an ultra impressive feat. It makes no sense to say it isn't impressive because OP rock could be mad of marshmellows, diamonds, pencil lead, or something so we're not allowed to judge it. We have no reason to believe that. Fire is fire. Heat is Heat. Concussive force is concussive force.* If we are not given a reason to believe something behaves differently than it's real world we're going to treat it as such.
*

You cannot use exceptions to the rule like, Teach's clearly magical darkness that do not exist in real life, to claim everything in OP could, for no particular good reason, have completely different properties than it's real world counter parts.

-





> I'm writing paragraphs to respond to your points.  I'm not sure how writing paragraphs means I'm ignoring points.  Disagreeing with points doesn't mean I'm ignoring them.



You're not addressing my specific points or questions at all. You have simply shifted the conversation to be about throwing out the method the rest of us yuse to arrive at conclusions while not explaining how you come to yours. It's simple math  vs. your beliefs/feelings which you cannot explain.


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## Gohara (Sep 27, 2014)

-Just to clarify, are we talking about the length from where the crack starts to where the crack ends or are we talking about how deep the hole due to the crack was?  Either way- a kilometer isn't even a mile, two kilometers is barely more than a mile, and three kilometers is only around two miles.  You had said miles, which to me implies many miles.  For the sake of clarification- could you just post your calculations of the overall feat?  That way if we're going to discuss applying real life science/physics to Manga/Anime, which I don't agree with, we're not doing it just for the sake of semantics.

-Chinjao didn't just softly bow down.  He bent down fast, almost as if he normally would.  I'll give you that he was battle worn- but I don't think that takes him from obliterating mountains to just destroying one floor level.

-My point wasn't to say that just because Luffy is significantly stronger than old Chinjao, the former can do what the latter can do.  My point is that just because the latter can do those things, doesn't mean the former isn't stronger than him.  That is the basis you are using to say prime Chinjao is stronger than current Luffy.

-It may work to you, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the more reliable method of comparing feats and power.  We can name examples where even just basic science/physics is ignored in Manga/Anime, including One Piece.  So, I highly doubt most- if not all- Mangakas are taking into account specific calculations and equations involving exact amounts of energy output and the wide array of variables that go into them.

-Those God given and unrivaled analytical skills involve a lot of speculation, assuming that they are being applied by Oda himself, and are often disagreed upon by each other (those who go by calculations).  Also, I didn't ask anyone to agree with my views.  I merely said that the aforementioned method is more unreliable, IMO, than just going by what the Mangaka likely intended.  While that is still a subjective matter as well, it doesn't involve as many estimated variables and guesses.  Furthermore, that alone is not why I'm even disagreeing with your overall main points.  There's also still my point that Luffy > a character with, so far, more impressive "energy based" feats- with other examples going along with that as well.  So even if I agreed that real life science/physics apply to Manga/Anime, which I don't, I would still disagree with your main point anyways.

-I actually addressed that question and point in the text that you quoted immediately below that.

-My overall point here isn't dependent on you showing those calculations- but I would actually argue that it is on the person saying said calculations are the reason your point is correct to post the calculations.  You don't have to show them, and if you don't that's fine.  I was just curious, because you seem to be 100% certain that they would clearly follow exactly what you are saying.

-The opinion is in regards to whether or not real life science/physics can be applied to Manga/Anime.  That itself is an opinion.  Not that if Oda did go by real life science/physics in every way, that your calculations (which you state you would rather not dig to get them) would be opinionated.  You see, though, I do have a reason to believe that there is a difference between real life and Manga/Anime.  Aside from Manga/Anime being fictional and already having so many basic contradictions towards real life laws, there are examples in One Piece itself where even basic science/physics are contradicted.  As such, I have good reason to doubt that Oda would factor in less simple equations when drawing feats.  Chinjao's head is magically shaped like a drill.  Haki is also magic compared to real life.  Almost every technique used in One Piece could be called magical compared to real life.  I don't think Blackbeard should get a free pass when other characters don't.

-What specific points and questions have I not addressed at all?  If you agree that just a small amount of people do not decide what method everyone should use, then you should also agree that a group of people on one forum do not decide what method everyone should use.  I never said that just because I don't believe real life science/physics apply to Manga/Anime, that everyone should feel the same way.  I just said that I find that method more unreliable, and explained why.  However, it is a philosophy not any less valid than yours.  So then, that leaves us with two differing opinions, which can help to explain why I disagree with your overall main points in how Luffy compares to some other characters.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were the one who initially complained about differing views and implied that my views on this match up are clearly wrong.  If you had just said something to the effect of "In my opinion, Sabo would easily win because (insert calculations)" without mentioning my username, I would not have responded to your post nor asked you to explain yourself.  I would have just agreed to disagree.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 28, 2014)

Gohara said:


> -Just to clarify, are we talking about the length from where the crack starts to where the crack ends or are we talking about how deep the hole due to the crack was?  Either way- a kilometer isn't even a mile, two kilometers is barely more than a mile, and three kilometers is only around two miles.  You had said miles, which to me implies many miles.  For the sake of clarification- could you just post your calculations of the overall feat?  That way if we're going to discuss applying real life science/physics to Manga/Anime, which I don't agree with, we're not doing it just for the sake of semantics.



Honestly you win here. I've seen kilometers thrown around so much I remembered a panel that did not exist. One where it went to the horizon. However that just changes my view on 1-2 being only a conservative estimate to just being the most accurate interpretation. Obviously the depth&length are both significant. It's still a moutain level feat since that Ice is harder than PX metal.



> -Chinjao didn't just softly bow down.  He bent down fast, almost as if he normally would.  I'll give you that he was battle worn- but I don't think that takes him from obliterating mountains to just destroying one floor level.



He did that accidentally by bowing his head. It gets no more casual than that. He clearly put absolutely  no power behind that bow. This is the most reaching statement you've made yet.



> -My point wasn't to say that just because Luffy is significantly stronger than old Chinjao, the former can do what the latter can do.  My point is that just because the latter can do those things, doesn't mean the former isn't stronger than him.  That is the basis you are using to say prime Chinjao is stronger than current Luffy.



No it's not. He simply gets scaled to his own attack power and Garp. Very rarely can people not take what they dish out in OP. Even with his super strong head if he didn't have the physical strength to support his head Garp would have blown him away in the air. They wouldn't have stalemated until Garp won. You would have to prove Prime Chin's other stats are not even remotely in the same ballpark as his attack power for anyone to entertain him being weaker than Luffy.



> -It may work to you, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is the more reliable method of comparing feats and power.  We can name examples where even just basic science/physics is ignored in Manga/Anime, including One Piece.  So, *I highly doubt most- if not all- Mangakas are taking into account specific calculations and equations involving exact amounts of energy *output and the wide array of variables that go into them.



No. Math does not lie. There is nothing subjective here. Stop sidestepping the actual information presented to you and making this absolutely asinine argument that we are not to observe and interpret what it takes to do certain feats in OP with *what we know.* 

*They do not have to.* Mangaka are people. They live in the real world and went to school. How we arrive to our conclusions has nothing to do with what authors' have their characters do in-universe. It can be pure coincidence that Chin and Sabo's feats fall into the same range of power but a pattern is a pattern. Until it absolutely does not work why stop? Again, calcs are just a way to catalog what we seeing happening. 

What is your point here? That despite having a more impressive feat it's possible Oda did not intend for that character to be more powerful? There is more than just calculations pointing to specific characters being stronger than others. That is an entirely different conversation than whether Sabo is much stronger than Luffy. Take that to a Crocodile thread where that would be a bit more relevant.



> *-Those God given and unrivaled analytical skills involve a lot of speculation, assuming that they are being applied by Oda himself, and are often disagreed upon by each other (those who go by calculations).*  Also, I didn't ask anyone to agree with my views.  I merely said that the aforementioned method is more unreliable, IMO,* than just going by what the Mangaka likely intended.  *While that is still a subjective matter as well, it doesn't involve as *many estimated variables and guesses*.  Furthermore, that alone is not why I'm even disagreeing with your overall main points.  There's also still my point that Luffy > a character with, so far, more impressive "energy based" feats- with other examples going along with that as well.  So even if I agreed that real life science/physics apply to Manga/Anime, which I don't, I would still disagree with your main point anyways.



Now you are generalizing. Calculations are obviously prone to error. They are still more concrete information than simply whatever you happen believe. If there is a calc you think is flawed then discuss why. What you're doing is trying to throw away even the straight forward easily understood agreed upon calculations. 

And what is that? 

You realize that every observation and interpretation a person makes starts begins with guesses and assumptions. You believing Luffy is not outclassed in speed, power, strength, endurance, and stamina by Sabo is a guess based on your own assumptions of how they compare. What you're now telling me is that, somehow, it is wrong for somebody to point out that if you break it down Luffy is only consistently shown to be X fast and Y strong. That somehow getting precise with the difference makes for a more flawed argument than simply guessing the difference is big, medium, or small.



> -I actually addressed that question and point in the text that you quoted immediately below that.



Not sure what this is in response too.



> -My overall point here isn't dependent on you showing those calculations- but I would actually argue that it is on the person saying said calculations are the reason your point is correct to post the calculations.  You don't have to show them, and if you don't that's fine.  I was just curious, because you seem to be 100% certain that they would clearly follow exactly what you are saying.



I'm supposed to disagree with math? I'm merely taking a detailed observation into account when forming my opinion. Numbers can vary but they do not lie. No you're the one who decided to completely shift the conversation from how do you Luffy&Sabo compare to downplaying the method that gives us a very good grasp of the difference. If you had not done so, other points could have also been brought up. But you were never interested in hearing those points because you're now fool. You know numbers do not lie but obviously an opinion with concrete information behind it vs. an opinion based on feelings is a loss for the latter.



> I don't think Blackbeard should get a free pass when other characters don't.



No this is an example of what I put in bold. We got a_ reason _to not treat like its real life counterpart. We also got reason to treat the ice continent's ice differently only in that case Oda told us it's stronger than normal ice. We have no reason to treat the stone of the Coliseum or the dirt&sand of Greenbit. You're basically telling_ unless Oda clarifies something does work like it's real life counterpart _(such as Robin&Nami explaining water pressure changes as they dove) we can't assume a such. I'm sorry but that is stupid, incredibly stupid. Tolkien does not need to clarify that Middle-earth people breath oxygen and exhale carbon-dioxide.



> -What specific points and questions have I not addressed at all?



You have not once described your "method" or your scale. You simply judge based on what you want to believe then even go so far to make up excuses for why the feats and portrayal don't match-up with such views. Only method I can make out is that you look only at surface details.

You have also failed to explain how Luffy is as strong a Sabo, pre-Roger Garp, Fujitora, or even Doffy. Instead you just want to ignore Luffy being High-end town level going all out while they do achieve the same feats in their sleep and just argue against the very way we arrived to this conclusion.


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## Gohara (Sep 28, 2014)

-True, but again he didn't bend down softly.  He essentially just fell to the ground.  I'm not saying he can't put more force into it- but again I don't think that takes him from obliterating mountains to just destroying one floor level.

-How much damage prime Chinjao can take is unknown.  Plus, that doesn't include his abilities in other categories.  It's entirely possible for Chinjao to have both superior physical strength and durability to his opponent, and still lose.  I might be misremembering, but didn't Garp swing downards at prime Chinjao?

-It's not really about whether or not calculations lie, and again these are calculations that largely include estimations and sometimes even guesses.  It's more so about the Mangaka's state of mind.  The question is simply this: Does Oda go through specific calculations and equations before drawing a feat?  One's answer to that can define their philosophy in debating One Piece power levels.  I do not believe he does, because he often times seemingly doesn't even go through basic science/physics when drawing some feats.  So, I doubt he's going to go through more complex calculations/equations to do so.  This isn't sidestepping anything shown in the Manga, because the Manga does not state that the answer to the aforementioned question is yes.  This also addresses you saying "going by what we know".

-Again, I never said that you are not to observe and interpret One Piece power levels how you wish to.  Remember, you are the one who questioned those who may disagree with your answer to the match up of this thread.  Had it been the other way around where I was the one who questioned your beliefs, I could maybe see why you would think I am attempting to push my mindset towards One Piece power levels on you.  However, such isn't the case.  That being said, my apologies if it came off that way.

-True, but being people and living in the real world doesn't mean they are applying real life science/physics to fictional worlds.  That doesn't inherently mean they are going through specific calculations and equations each time they draw a feat.

-I respectfully disagree.  I would actually say it has everything to do with what Mangakas have characters do in universe.  That Mangakas go by real life science/physics isn't an automatic system or anything of the like.  We don't need them to specify that they aren't doing that in order for us not to go by real life science/physics.  I don't think there's much point in going by if we think it works or not, as our opinions of whether or not it works will depend on our mindset towards One Piece power levels.  Naturally I personally do not believe it works, while naturally you do.

-Both methods are bound to have some degree of errors.  I would just say calculations and equations are more prone to that than judging what the Mangaka intends based on more basic information and result based feats (as in defeating someone).  The latter method narrows down your options.

-I don't think I said that Luffy isn't outclassed in some of those categories by Sabo.  I don't think we know enough of either at their full power and capabilities to know for sure one way or the other.  However, the basis we go by would be more narrow and therefore easier to determine.  There may be estimated variables and guesses, but not "many" estimated variables and guesses.  Furthermore, for reasons I stated above, I doubt Oda thinks deeply enough about science/physics to go through calculations and equations.  That reason alone is enough for me to believe that the other method of estimating power levels is more reliable.

-I didn't say you're suppose to disagree with calculations and equations.  I just said that I would actually argue that it is on you, who is saying calculations are the reason your point is correct, to post said calculations.  I said that in response to you saying it is on me to do the research and calculations myself.  I also said that my point here isn't dependent on you showing those calculations, and that I'm just curious to see said calculations, with my reason for being curious about that is you seeming to be 100% certain that they would clearly follow exactly what you are saying.

-There's no possible way for Oda to show whether or not he is going by calculations and equations in many aspects of combat, so it's not really about being given a reason not to accept it in some cases.  Rather, it is that we are not to accept it in some cases, that I would argue that we likely aren't meant to accept it in any case.  That characters breathe oxygen does not require Oda to go through calculations and equations when drawing feats.

-I do not believe I was explicitly asked to describe it with any degree of detail.  I will give an example, though.  Enel is more destructive than Hancock from what we've seen.  However, I would say Hancock is more powerful at all.  She seems to be physically superior (not because of calculations and equations), also has a powerful Devil Fruit, and knows all three types of Haki (whereas Enel only knows one).  I would say Marco is more powerful than Kuma, despite the former having less destructive feats than the latter.  The reason I believe Marco is more powerful than Kuma is simply because I rank the latter as being around mid Shichibukai level, while I rank the former as being Admiral level due to him fighting on par with Kizaru and being the first mate of a Yonkou.

-Making excuses would imply that I just randomly decided that I don't go by real life science/physics (unless stated/shown to be a special exception), but again I've been pretty consistent in believing that they don't apply to Manga/Anime.  I wouldn't say I go by surface details, but I would say that I think Oda thinks far more basic when he draws feats than you do.  This is because it would both be easier for him and allow him to be more consistent in when he goes by real life science/physics (other than the most basic things such as characters breathing oxygen).

-I explained earlier on in the thread why I think it's possible that current or end of Dressrosa Arc Luffy isn't or will be significantly weaker than those characters (except for prime Garp).

Having said all that, I still respect your views, even if we disagree here.


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## Hosemisnuba (Oct 5, 2014)

This is stupid. The Sabo wank here is disgusting.

Scenario 1: Sabo Mid Difficulties
Scenario 2: Law and Luffy win High Difficulty
Scenario 3: M3 Mid Difficulties


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## Sabox (Oct 5, 2014)

the sabo hype is way high people think he is admiral level


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## GIORNO (Oct 7, 2014)

Sabo clears.


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