# EOS Zoro guantlet



## Lycka (Sep 12, 2014)

fujitora
Green Bull
Kizaru
Big Mom
Aokiji
Mihawk
Shanks
Prime Garp

Pre-Skip Aokiji + Akainu



SCENARIO 1: Zoro is healed after every fight
SCENARIO 2: Zoro is healed 50% of damage after every fight
SCENARIO 3: Zoro is given 4 full heals

SCENARIO 4: Zoro and Sanji but not heals.


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Sep 12, 2014)

S1: It can go either way with Shanks, but Garp will put him down with very high diff if he makes it there.
S2: Zoro walks into his fight with Kizaru at about 45% and gets low-mid diffed
S3: He will be out of heals after his fight with Kuzan and exhausted after his bought with Kuzan. Mihawk murders him
S4: In character Sanji will not help against Big Mom. Zoro will be depleted after that and they will lose to Kuzan.
If Sanji participates fully against Big Mom, I still don't see them pushing past Shanks.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2014)

SCENARIO 1: Probably makes it to the last fight, then loses badly. Prime Garp might beat him, though, I'm not sure.
SCENARIO 2: Loses probably around Big Mam.
SCENARIO 3: Loses at Shanks.
SCENARIO 4: Probably make it to the last fight, then lose badly. Prime Garp might beat them, though, I'm not sure.


----------



## Amol (Sep 12, 2014)

He will beat everyone except Prime Garp and Akainu+Aokiji .
He will loose in those two cases.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 12, 2014)

1. Zoro defeats Fujitora with low to mid difficulty.  He probably defeats Ryokugyu and Kizaru with around the same level of difficulty.  He defeats Big Mam with high to extremely high difficulty.  He defeats Aokiji with low to mid difficulty at most.  He defeats Zoro with around mid difficulty at most.  Shanks defeats Zoro with at least around high difficulty.  So, he stops at Zoro.  Just for fun, though, I think it could go either way between Zoro and prime Garp.  It could also go either way between Zoro and pre time skip Aokiji + pre time skip Akainu.

2. Zoro stops at Big Mam.

3. Zoro stops at either Shanks or prime Garp.

4. Is this end of series Sanji too?  If so, they probably stop at Big Mam or Aokiji.  Probably Aokiji.


----------



## Amol (Sep 12, 2014)

No one can beat an admiral with low difficulty.
Not even Prime Roger.


----------



## RF (Sep 12, 2014)

Won't bother with the thousand scenarios, so I'll just answer the first one.

Beats everyone but Prime Garp who is a toss-up, and gets wrecked by the admiral duo.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 12, 2014)

Amol said:


> No one can beat an admiral with low difficulty.
> Not even Prime Roger.



When I say low to mid, I'm usually saying between low and mid.  Sometimes it may be closer to low than mid, and sometimes it may be closer to mid than low- but it's usually between them.

Having said that, I disagree.  I think prime Roger defeats most or all Admirals with around low difficulty one on one.

I only view the Admirals as being more along the lines of the top 2-4 Yonkou Division Commanders and the strongest Shichibukai.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> 1. *Zoro defeats Fujitora with low to mid difficulty*.  He probably defeats Ryokugyu and Kizaru with around the same level of difficulty.  He defeats Big Mam with high to extremely high difficulty.  He defeats Aokiji with low to mid difficulty at most.  He defeats Zoro with around mid difficulty at most.  Shanks defeats Zoro with at least around high difficulty.  So, he stops at Zoro.  Just for fun, though, I think it could go either way between Zoro and prime Garp.  *It could also go either way between Zoro and pre time skip Aokiji + pre time skip Akainu.*
> 
> 2. Zoro stops at Big Mam.
> 
> ...


----------



## TheWiggian (Sep 12, 2014)

S1:

_
Zoro vs Fujitora = Zoro high mid diff
Zoro vs Green Bull = Zoro high mid diff
Zoro vs Kizaru = Zoro high mid diff - low high diff
Zoro vs Fat Mom = Zoro low high diff
Zoro vs Aokiji = Zoro high mid diff - low high diff
Zoro vs Mihawk/Shanks = Zoro high high diff (probably marginally less diff for Shanks)
Zoro vs Prime Garp could go either way extreme diff (leaning towards Zoro)

Zoro vs Aokiji and Akainu = Admiral duo mid diff him, maybe high mid diff
_

S2: Is stupid and not worth my time.

S3: 

_
Fujitora
Green Bull

*Heal*

Kizaru

*Heal*

Big Mom

*Heal*

Aokiji

*Heal*

Mihawk

*Wins with high high diff against Mihawk and loses to Shanks giving him low diff.*

Shanks
Prime Garp

Pre-Skip Aokiji + Akainu
_

S4:

_
Fujitora = They stomp low diff
Green Bull = They stomp low diff
Kizaru = They stomp low-mid diff
Big Mom = They win mid diff
Aokiji = They win mid diff
Mihawk = They win high mid diff
Shanks = They win high diff
Prime Garp = They win high high diff /extreme

Aokiji and Akainu stomp the tired Zoro and very tired Sanji.
_


----------



## Ruse (Sep 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> *1. Zoro defeats Fujitora with low to mid difficulty.  He probably defeats Ryokugyu and Kizaru with around the same level of difficulty.*  He defeats Big Mam with high to extremely high difficulty.  *He defeats Aokiji with low to mid difficulty at most.*  He defeats Zoro with around mid difficulty at most.  Shanks defeats Zoro with at least around high difficulty.  So, he stops at Zoro.  Just for fun, though, I think it could go either way between Zoro and prime Garp.  It could also go either way between Zoro and pre time skip Aokiji + pre time skip Akainu.
> 
> 2. Zoro stops at Big Mam.
> 
> ...


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 12, 2014)

Garp > Zoro, from now until the end of time, that's all I'm going to say.


----------



## Ghost (Sep 12, 2014)

Sc1: loses to Shanks
sc2:  loses to Kizaru
sc3: loses to Shanks
sc4: not sure if the previous 1 vs 2 battles will tier out them too much


----------



## GreenStache (Sep 12, 2014)

Lycka said:


> fujitora
> Green Bull
> Kizaru
> Big Mom
> ...



answers in bolded


----------



## Valdie (Sep 12, 2014)

We haven't even seen Green Bull yet? Or any of Big Mom's ability, expect her ability to eat multiple NW World Pirates with a single bite?


----------



## Gohara (Sep 12, 2014)

@ monkey d ace/Heavenly Demon.

Well, either of you are more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.  If you can I will happily adjust my views on the matter.  If you can't, I'm not sure what the problem is.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ monkey d ace/Heavenly Demon.
> 
> Well, either of you are more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.  If you can I will happily adjust my views on the matter.  If you can't, I'm not sure what the problem is.


>EOS
>proof
do u go by common sense/logic?


----------



## Gohara (Sep 12, 2014)

I agree that there's no proof one way or the other, but you're the one who seemed to have an issue with my opinion and not the other way around.

If all you wanted to say was you disagree with me, then fair enough.  I respect your views either way.

However, if you have an issue with my opinion, then it's only natural that you should provide proof.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I agree that there's no proof one way or the other, but you're the one who seemed to have an issue with my opinion and not the other way around.
> 
> If all you wanted to say was you disagree with me, then fair enough.  I respect your views either way.
> 
> However, if you have an issue with my opinion, then it's only natural that you should provide proof.


we're talking about something in the future, there can't be any proof whatsoever, that's why i asked if u go by common sense/logic.
e.g EOS coby solo's EOS M3, nothing proves otherwise. deal weth it. 
does this make any sense? nope. is there any legit proof that says otherwise? nope. well this is exactly what ur doing. so i'll ask again, do u go by common sense/logic?


----------



## Ruse (Sep 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ monkey d ace/Heavenly Demon.
> 
> Well, either of you are more than welcome to provide proof on the contrary.  If you can I will happily adjust my views on the matter.  If you can't, I'm not sure what the problem is.



I just find it hilarious that some people are expecting a Naruto level power inflation, Zoro beating an Admiral with less than high diff holy shit


----------



## Luke (Sep 12, 2014)

We have literally no idea how strong Zoro will be EOS, so this thread is pointless.


----------



## DavyChan (Sep 12, 2014)

Lol i love how u guys are defending garp so much. When i read over garp i said idk bcuz we dont know and never will. He was hyped but not to the point where we would really know.

Anyway he is losing to shanks i think but most people dont agree. He probably loses to big mom also. He wins everything else except aokiji & akainu.


*Spoiler*: __ 



P.S. Aokiji, Akainu, & Kizaru pre-skip = post-skip version if Oda wants to make any sense.


----------



## Roronoa Zoro (Sep 12, 2014)

Scenario 1: Loses the last fight
Scenario 2: Both Kizaru and Zoro are dead
Scenario 3: Stops at Mihawk


----------



## Lycka (Sep 12, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> I just find it hilarious that some people are expecting a Naruto level power inflation, Zoro beating an Admiral with less than high diff holy shit



It's much more plausible Zoro would mid diff and admiral than high diff given his potent fighting style.



It's high difficulty in the sense of a fight like Zoro vs Ryuuma. But it's also quick because it's a hit or miss type fight (which Zoro would always win against almost all those fighters in that list.) So Zoro would be relatively unscathed afterwards.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 12, 2014)

@ monkey d ace.

As I said, I agree with all that.  There is indeed no proof one way or the other.  I'm not suggesting you prove it because I disagree with you.  I'm suggesting that because you seemed to have an issue with me disagreeing with you on the matter.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say in regards to common sense/logic.  Are you saying that it's common sense that Zoro wouldn't defeat any Admiral with that level of difficulty?

@ Heavenly Demon.

I can't speak for all of the people who feel that way, but I'm not expecting a Naruto level inflation.  On the contrary I find the differences in power in One Piece to be significantly less than in series like Bleach and Naruto.

More than likely, our disagreement on the matter is down to our disagreement on how strong Admirals are in One Piece.  While you probably find them to be on the same level as the Yonkou or extremely close to it, I generally view them as being more along the lines of the top 2-4 Yonkou Division Commanders and the strongest Shichibukai.

If Zoro was being put up against a Yonkou, I would have estimated that Zoro wins with a higher level of difficulty.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 12, 2014)

Gohara said:


> @ monkey d ace.
> 
> As I said, I agree with all that.  There is indeed no proof one way or the other.  I'm not suggesting you prove it because I disagree with you.  I'm suggesting that because you seemed to have an issue with me disagreeing with you on the matter.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say in regards to common sense/logic.  *Are you saying that it's common sense that Zoro wouldn't defeat any Admiral with that level of difficulty?*


>admits there is no proof
>asks for proof
>

do u even need to ask? the previous WSM lost half his head to one of these guys, and even an island-busting attacks was only enough to temporarily immobilize him. one can not simply low diff an admiral.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 12, 2014)

My asking for proof was in response to you expressing that you have an issue with my opinion.  If you have an issue with someone's opinion, I think it's only reasonable that you be asked to provide proof.  If you agree there is none, it makes me wonder why you would have an issue with any opinion on the matter.  I respect your opinion on the matter, but as long as you agree it's just your opinion, then I have no issue with it.

I don't see how you can agree that there's no proof one way or the other, but then say it's common sense.  If it were common sense, then it wouldn't be such an opinionated subject.  Common sense is that when you get rained on, you get wet.  That's not an opinion, and there's proof that you got wet.

At any rate, I believe the Admirals to be below Yonkou level, and more along the lines of the top 2-4 Yonkou Division Commanders and strongest Shichibukai.  As such, I disagree that no one can't defeat some Admirals with low difficulty in a one on one fight, although I didn't say Zoro would win with low difficulty.  I said between low and mid difficulty.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 13, 2014)

Gohara said:


> My asking for proof was in response to you expressing that you have an issue with my opinion.  If you have an issue with someone's opinion, I think it's only reasonable that you be asked to provide proof.  If you agree there is none, it makes me wonder why you would have an issue with any opinion on the matter.  I respect your opinion on the matter, but as long as you agree it's just your opinion, then I have no issue with it.
> 
> I don't see how you can agree that there's no proof one way or the other, but then say it's common sense.  If it were common sense, then it wouldn't be such an opinionated subject.  Common sense is that when you get rained on, you get wet.  That's not an opinion, and there's proof that you got wet.
> 
> At any rate, I believe the Admirals to be below Yonkou level, and more along the lines of the top 2-4 Yonkou Division Commanders and strongest Shichibukai.  As such, I disagree that no one can't defeat some Admirals with low difficulty in a one on one fight, although I didn't say Zoro would win with low difficulty.  I said between low and mid difficulty.


why all this twisting and turning? i asked a simple question, do u go by common sense/logic? just answer a yes or no. if yes, then maybe u'll understand why it doesn't make sense for the WG greatest military power to get low diff'ed. if no, then why all the trouble, u can claim anything for all i care, cause there's no proof. 

i wonder how akainu(injured) solo'ing marco/vista/croc+rest of WB commanders = akainu is top 2-4 division commander level in ur 'opinion'.


----------



## Extravlad (Sep 13, 2014)

EoS Zoro is not losing to Prime Garp.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 13, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> EoS Zoro is not losing to Prime Garp.



Thank you Oda.


----------



## Extravlad (Sep 13, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Thank you Oda.


You're welcome.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 13, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> You're welcome.



If I remember right didn't you say Prime Garp would've taken Roger to high diff? right?
So how close will EoS Zoro be to Pirate King Luffy?


----------



## Extravlad (Sep 13, 2014)

> So how close will EoS Zoro be to Pirate King Luffy?


Extreme difficulty fight for Luffy.


----------



## Extravlad (Sep 13, 2014)

> So Zoro will be near equals to the Pirate King..


Of course what's the problem with that? Zoro is the deuteragonist of One Piece.


----------



## Firo (Sep 13, 2014)

> Zoro
> deuteragonist


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 13, 2014)

Zoro being near equal to the Pirate King?


----------



## Dracule Mihawk (Sep 13, 2014)

There hasn't been much of a difference in terms of the fighting ability of Zoro and Luffy. The reason Luffy is going to be pirate king is charisma in combination with his strength.


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 13, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> If I remember right didn't you say Prime Garp would've taken Roger to high diff? right?
> So how close will EoS Zoro be to Pirate King Luffy?


Considering that Pirate King Luffy will be superior to pirate King Roger, if EOS Zoro can push Pirate King Luffy to high difficulty(like i think he could), he could defeat this version of prime Garp you're describing


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 13, 2014)

Defeat everyone except Shanks. Get high diff by Prime Garp .

and lol @Aokiji + Akainu


----------



## Lycka (Sep 13, 2014)

Zoro will be above Roger that is a FACT.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 13, 2014)

fanfic =/= fact


----------



## Gohara (Sep 13, 2014)

I doubt Zoro will be stronger than Roger.  I'm not even sure he'll even be as strong as him.  That's just my opinion, though.  I could be wrong.



monkey d ace said:


> why all this twisting and turning? i asked a simple question, do u go by common sense/logic? just answer a yes or no. if yes, then maybe u'll understand why it doesn't make sense for the WG greatest military power to get low diff'ed. if no, then why all the trouble, u can claim anything for all i care, cause there's no proof.



You had expressed that you had an issue with my views on the matter.  As you were effectively making an assertion, I was asking you if you had any proof, as one who makes an assertion assumes the burden of proof.  You then claimed that there's no proof one way or the other, but said that it only required common sense.  However, if it's common sense, then it would be something that could easily be proven.  In other words, it doesn't really make sense to call it common sense.

The Admirals are the marines' greatest/ultimate attack force.  That doesn't make them the most powerful individuals in the World Government.  Even if it did, that still doesn't mean they are on the same level as the Yonkou.



monkey d ace said:


> i wonder how akainu(injured) solo'ing marco/vista/croc+rest of WB commanders = akainu is top 2-4 division commander level in ur 'opinion'.



We didn't see any of that fight.  Also, when it comes to pre time skip Akainu specifically, I would say he's around the level of a 1st Division Yonkou Commander.  Probably stronger than most, and maybe even all of them.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 13, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I doubt Zoro will be stronger than Roger.  I'm not even sure he'll even be as strong as him.  That's just my opinion, though.  I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


so basically if someone were to claim EOS zoro solo's the 3 admirals, u'd be required to bring him proof to say no? it could easily be logically speaking, previous WSM lost half of head to one of the admirals, an island-splitter was only enough to temporarily immobilize one of them, WG strongest force, change climates permanently as a side effect? logically speaking, someone low diff'ing these guys sounds absurd. 

the feats i already mentioned puts them in the same level as the yonkou.

doesn't mean it didn't happen. in fact it looked like akainu was the one pressuring them when he took one of the commander's and his fellow marines morale raised as a result.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 14, 2014)

Thinking EoS Zoro beating Prime Garp is fine but Aokiji+Akainu  You forgot to add in Kizaru


----------



## Ruse (Sep 14, 2014)

EnyawNehc said:


> Thinking EoS Zoro beating Prime Garp is fine but Aokiji+Akainu



Everyone is expecting him to be God tier EoS


----------



## Gohara (Sep 14, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> so basically if someone were to claim EOS zoro solo's the 3 admirals, u'd be required to bring him proof to say no?



If someone says that end of series Zoro could do that in their opinion, then the burden of proof isn't on them.  If they make such an assertion, then they would have to prove it.  Similarly, if you just said you disagree and it's just your opinion, the burden of proof isn't on you.  However, if you assert that their view isn't the case, then the burden of proof is on you.

I've pretty much made it clear that my view on the matter we've been debating is my opinion.  However, you're asserting that my claim is false.  Thus, the burden of proof is on you.  If you just want to say you disagree and that it's your opinion, then that's fine with me.



monkey d ace said:


> it could easily be logically speaking, previous WSM lost half of head to one of the admirals, an island-splitter was only enough to temporarily immobilize one of them, WG strongest force, change climates permanently as a side effect? logically speaking, someone low diff'ing these guys sounds absurd.



Whether or not that is logical based on how you've interpreted those events is your opinion.

-Whitebeard losing half his face was in a desperation attack.   Plus, Whitebeard at this point was blinded by rage.

-True.  Akainu's durability is one of the best in the series, but that doesn't instantly make him Yonkou level (although I do think he could be right now if he's gotten stronger since pre time skip).  Kenpachi's durability in Bleach has always been one of the best, even when he wasn't even a mouse in comparison to the top tiers in that series.  Plus, we haven't seen any of who I view as the top tiers fight seriously except for Whitebeard.  So, we would be saying that Akainu's durability is one of the best with little relative comparisons to make in regards to the other high/top tier characters.

-Strongest force doesn't necessarily mean strongest individuals.

-True.  Changing the climate is impressive, but how much that tells us is up to interpretation.  In the end it took them 10 days to destroy an island.  Whitebeard could do that by himself in a few hours.  While it could be said they weren't intentionally aiming their attacks at the island, the same could largely be said about Whitebeard's attacks.  Luffy destroyed a ship half the size of an island in less than half an hour.  Doflamingo's Bird Cage is capable of encompassing an island.  This also falls under the category of not having many relative comparisons to make.  The only high/top tiers we've seen fight seriously on an extensive basis are Whitebeard and the Admirals.

So, there are different interpretations from what you have in all of these instances.  Could your interpretations and conclusion be correct?  Of course, but they also might not be, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to disagree with them unless they were proven correct.

As much as you could point to all of that, I could also point to the Admirals having quite a few fights/confrontations in which they did not best a character who was below Yonkou level.  I could also point to the Yonkou generally getting much bigger reactions from much stronger characters than what the Admirals have gotten.



monkey d ace said:


> doesn't mean it didn't happen. in fact it looked like akainu was the one pressuring them when he took one of the commander's and his fellow marines morale raised as a result.



I might be misremembering, but I don't think we saw any of that fight.  Even if we assume it happened, we don't know how it went and the circumstances of it.  Even if we did see some of it, we didn't see anything that clearly indicated how he was doing against all of them at once, if indeed he even fought all of them at once.


----------



## Shinthia (Sep 14, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> Everyone is expecting him to be God tier EoS



even Usopp is not that strong


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 14, 2014)

Scenario 1: Clears except Garp (toss-up) and Akainu + Aokiji (loses).


----------



## Patrick (Sep 14, 2014)

Scenario 1: He stops at Prime Garp. EoS Zoro has to be stronger than Mihawk, but only marginally so that's what my guess is.
Scenario 2: Stops at Ryokugyu. He's not beating Fujitora with anything less than really High Difficulty. With his naturally high endurance and the 50% heal he might be able to barely make it past Ryokugyu with Extreme Difficulty, but Kizaru would then stomp beat him handily anyway.
Scenario 3: He'll probably need a heal after every fight, so his heals will be gone after Big Mom. He'll then be able to barely beat Aokiji and he'd then go down against Miahwk.
Scenario 4: This one is difficult because we've never seen two Top Tier fighters go against one Top Tier. Except for Garp and Sengoku vs Shiki off-panel. I doubt anyone would really be able to wound them badly because they'd have to be on the defensive the entire time. All I know is that they certainly won't clear.


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If someone says that end of series Zoro could do that in their opinion, then the burden of proof isn't on them.  If they make such an assertion, then they would have to prove it.  Similarly, if you just said you disagree and it's just your opinion, the burden of proof isn't on you.  However, if you assert that their view isn't the case, then the burden of proof is on you.
> 
> I've pretty much made it clear that my view on the matter we've been debating is my opinion.  However, you're asserting that my claim is false.  Thus, the burden of proof is on you.  If you just want to say you disagree and that it's your opinion, then that's fine with me.
> 
> ...


so in other words. fuck logic! admirals > younkos, they have the feats while yonkou doesn't. and if u claim otherwise the BoP is on u. so admirals > yonkou until proven otherwise
nope, i could say that to WB's attack tho. dude knew he was dying after half his face turned to ash so he was all desperate and shit. and how did WB even land a hit on akainu? because he was caught up with chasing SH.
compares one piece to bleach lol. yonkou's don't have what it takes to beat an admiral. if u claim otherwise, then again, BoP is on u.
and with this, the rest doesn't really matter anymore.
inb4 a TL;DR


----------



## Magentabeard (Sep 14, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Defeat everyone except Shanks. Get high diff by Prime Garp .
> 
> and lol @Aokiji + Akainu



So in EOS, a swordsman stronger than Zoro will exist?
So Zoro =/= WSS?

WTF


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 14, 2014)

With heals after each fight, i think EOS Zoro may clear(or it goes either way in the final stage)


Magentabeard said:


> So in EOS, a swordsman stronger than Zoro will exist?
> So Zoro =/= WSS?
> 
> WTF


Inb4 Shanks isn't a swordsman


----------



## Extravlad (Sep 14, 2014)

Magentabeard said:


> So in EOS, a swordsman stronger than Zoro will exist?
> So Zoro =/= WSS?
> 
> WTF


Logic doesn't apply to Shanks fanboys.


----------



## Lycka (Sep 14, 2014)

Lol so true.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 14, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If someone says that end of series Zoro could do that in their opinion, then the burden of proof isn't on them.  If they make such an assertion, then they would have to prove it.  Similarly, if you just said you disagree and it's just your opinion, the burden of proof isn't on you.  However, if you assert that their view isn't the case, then the burden of proof is on you.


Would you stop with the TL;DR posts?If you think that makes you look good then let me tell you that it doesn't.Half of your posts are pointless.




> -Whitebeard losing half his face was in a desperation attack.   Plus, Whitebeard at this point was blinded by rage.


What desperation attack?Akainu knew very well where he was aiming.
And what matters is that Akainu got out with not so important injuries while WB lost half of his face which was the most major injury he received.



> -True.  Akainu's durability is one of the best in the series, but that doesn't instantly make him Yonkou level (although I do think he could be right now if he's gotten stronger since pre time skip).  Kenpachi's durability in Bleach has always been one of the best, even when he wasn't even a mouse in comparison to the top tiers in that series.  Plus, we haven't seen any of who I view as the top tiers fight seriously except for Whitebeard.  So, we would be saying that Akainu's durability is one of the best with little relative comparisons to make in regards to the other high/top tier characters.


Why the hell would you bring Kenpachi into this?They do not compare at all.

Also Akainu has proven himself to be a massive beast in the OP world.Even Oda has hyped him to heaven.



> -Strongest force doesn't necessarily mean strongest individuals.


What does it mean then you genius?



> -True.  Changing the climate is impressive, but how much that tells us is up to interpretation.  In the end it took them 10 days to destroy an island.  Whitebeard could do that by himself in a few hours.  While it could be said they weren't intentionally aiming their attacks at the island, the same could largely be said about Whitebeard's attacks.  Luffy destroyed a ship half the size of an island in less than half an hour.  Doflamingo's Bird Cage is capable of encompassing an island.  This also falls under the category of not having many relative comparisons to make.  The only high/top tiers we've seen fight seriously on an extensive basis are Whitebeard and the Admirals.


It would be wise of them to destroy the island because they can totally swim,am I right?

And what Doflamingo and Luffy did,doesn't even come close to what Akainu and Aokiji did on PH.Like not at all.



> As much as you could point to all of that, I could also point to the Admirals having quite a few fights/confrontations in which they did not best a character who was below Yonkou level.  I could also point to the Yonkou generally getting much bigger reactions from much stronger characters than what the Admirals have gotten.



Fujitora wasn't fighting seriously against Sabo,The Admirals fought equally with the strongest man,Akainu made Teach crap his pants etc

And again with the reactions.Oh my God.


----------



## kidgogeta (Sep 14, 2014)

Zoro clears all comfortably except the 2 admirals. He kills one then goes down extreme diff to the 2nd. The 2nd admiral probably dies later from blood loss if not saved.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> so in other words. fuck logic! admirals > younkos, they have the feats while yonkou doesn't. and if u claim otherwise the BoP is on u. so admirals > yonkou until proven otherwise



I respect your views, but that's not really how burden of proof works.  The one making the assertion assumes the burden of proof.  I'm merely stating an opinion, and have made it clear that it's an opinion.  You're making an assertion.  Like I said, if you want to just say it's your opinion, then that's fine.



monkey d ace said:


> i could say that to WB's attack tho. dude knew he was dying after half his face turned to ash so he was all desperate and shit.



Whitebeard was pummeling him out of anger.



monkey d ace said:


> and how did WB even land a hit on akainu? because he was caught up with chasing SH.



Akainu was warned of Whitebeard's presence and had multiple panels to react.



monkey d ace said:


> compares one piece to bleach



I don't see how them being different series (especially since they're both major fighting Shonens) changes my point any, which is that having one of the best durability in the series (assuming he does) doesn't make pre time skip Akainu top 5 or anything.



White Hawk said:


> What desperation attack?Akainu knew very well where he was aiming.



Desperation attacks don't always mean you don't know where you're aiming.  It just means he desperately wanted to take out Whitebeard before he could be hit again, which explains why he just rashly leaped at Whitebeard.



White Hawk said:


> And what matters is that Akainu got out with not so important injuries while WB lost half of his face which was the most major injury he received.



I would say Akainu was pretty heavily injured.  Whitebeard nearly turned his body inside out, and had him coughing up blood and unable to stand up for a while.  Had Whitebeard just kept pummeling him, I don't see how Akainu would have gotten up.

Whitebeard took significant damage outside of his fight with Akainu.  So, Akainu got far more help and resorted to trickery against Whitebeard, while the latter got no help and didn't resort to trickery against the former.  That Whitebeard still bested him overall speaks volumes to me.



White Hawk said:


> Why the hell would you bring Kenpachi into this?They do not compare at all.



What makes you say that?  Both are extremely durable characters.  You're implying that Akainu being one of the most durable characters we've seen so far (even though the only high/top tiers we've seen fight extensively are Whitebeard and the Admirals) makes him one of the very strongest.  Yet, there are characters in Manga/Anime with tons of durability who are no where near the strongest.



White Hawk said:


> Also Akainu has proven himself to be a massive beast in the OP world.



I don't disagree, but that's a rather vague point.



White Hawk said:


> Even Oda has hyped him to heaven.



The only thing I can think of is him saying that current Akainu would find One Piece in around a year, but he didn't go into specifics at all nor did he comment on how long it would take other high/top tier characters.  Plus, he laughed while saying it, implying that it wasn't meant to be an exact or serious estimation.  It just tells us that Akainu is really strong, which I think we can agree on.  It doesn't, however, tell us where he ranks exactly.  Furthermore, it was in reference to current Akainu, who is now the Fleet Admiral.



White Hawk said:


> What does it mean then you genius?



Military force usually implies a group.  So, it's very possible that they're simply the strongest group of characters in the marines.  The Admiral rank has at least three people, where as there's only one Fleet Admiral, and the Vice Admirals are generally far below the Admirals' league.

So, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the strongest individuals.  Just that they're some of the strongest, and the strongest when all marines of the same rank are put together.



White Hawk said:


> It would be wise of them to destroy the island because they can totally swim,am I right?



Aokiji can create platforms with his ice.  Besides, if we're going to say that, then that can explain why Blackbeard didn't want to fight Akainu.



White Hawk said:


> And what Doflamingo and Luffy did,doesn't even come close to what Akainu and Aokiji did on PH.Like not at all.



Doflamingo's attack encompasses a whole island, if I remember correctly.  Akainu's and Aokiji's powers each encompassed half of an island.  Doflamingo has also destroyed Fujitora's meteors without much of a problem on multiple occasions.

Luffy destroyed the equivalent of half an island, and that was while he was underwater and battle worn.



White Hawk said:


> Fujitora wasn't fighting seriously against Sabo



We don't know that Fujitora was holding back any more than Sabo was.  Plus, it was only said that Fujitora wasn't going all out for part of the fight.  Not that he wasn't fighting seriously at all.  Furthermore, it was implied that he was about to start going all out or at least get really serious, and they fought for some time after that.  From what we saw, it was a pretty equal fight.

Plus, that wasn't my only example.  There are still a number of other fights and confrontations between characters below Yonkou level and Admirals that were around even.



White Hawk said:


> The Admirals fought equally with the strongest man



I respectfully disagree.  Aokiji didn't get any blows in on Whitebeard, while the latter got in one or two blows on the former.  Kizaru didn't really fight Whitebeard.  Akainu was bested by Whitebeard, despite the former receiving far more help than the latter and resorting to trickery.  Not to mention one of his two blows on Akainu was just taking advantage of Whitebeard already being down.



White Hawk said:


> Akainu made Teach crap his pants



So have Shanks and Whitebeard.



White Hawk said:


> And again with the reactions.



Well, there is a huge difference in reactions.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Whitebeard took significant damage outside of his fight with Akainu.  So, Akainu got far more help and resorted to trickery against Whitebeard, while the latter got no help and didn't resort to trickery against the former.  That Whitebeard still bested him overall speaks volumes to me.


Whitebeard snuck up behind him, that kind of falls under trickery if you ask me. In a battle between the two with Whitebeard in that condition (ie chest full of magma), when Akainu knows that Whitebeard is coming, Akainu wins 10/10.


Gohara said:


> Doflamingo's attack encompasses a whole island, if I remember correctly.  Akainu's and Aokiji's powers each encompassed half of an island.  Doflamingo has also destroyed Fujitora's meteors without much of a problem on multiple occasions.
> 
> Luffy destroyed the equivalent of half an island, and that was while he was underwater and battle worn.


Are you seriously saying that making a large amount of strings which can cover an island, and destroying a wooden ship, is comparable to changing the climate of an island permanently as a side effect?


Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  Aokiji didn't get any blows in on Whitebeard, while the latter got in one or two blows on the former.  Kizaru didn't really fight Whitebeard.  Akainu was bested by Whitebeard, despite the former receiving far more help than the latter and resorting to trickery.  Not to mention one of his two blows on Akainu was just taking advantage of Whitebeard already being down.



*Spoiler*: __ 





Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard vs Aokiji
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





In case you missed it the first time.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard snuck up behind him, that kind of falls under trickery if you ask me.



Akainu received a warning of Whitebeard's presence, and there were two panels between when he was warned and when he was hit.  So, that IMO nullifies it being a surprise attack.  Had he just ignored the warning or something to that effect, then I would maybe still count it.



Issho D Tea said:


> In a battle between the two with Whitebeard in that condition (ie chest full of magma), when Akainu knows that Whitebeard is coming, Akainu wins 10/10.



That's a debatable point- but I would say in a fair one on one fight when Akainu doesn't have all the aforementioned advantages, old Whitebeard defeats the former with no more than around mid difficulty.



Issho D Tea said:


> Are you seriously saying that making a large amount of strings which can cover an island, and destroying a wooden ship, is comparable to changing the climate of an island permanently as a side effect?



It's not really about what Doflamingo's techniques are made out of, but about how much he's able to encompass in his techniques.

Plus, one could argue that Doflamingo's Bird Cage destroying Fujitora's meteors was a side effect.

Had Doflamingo and Luffy taken 10 days to do those things and they each had help doing that, then I would lean towards Akainu's and Aokiji's feat as being more impressive.  However, they did those things within minutes.



Issho D Tea said:


> In case you missed it the first time.



I didn't, but I did respond to those points when you brought them up the first time.


----------



## trance (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Just for fun, though, I think it could go either way between Zoro and prime Garp.  It could also go either way between Zoro and pre time skip Aokiji + pre time skip Akainu.



Zoro soloing two Admirals?

Lelnope. 

OT: Zoro stops at Prime Garp in the first scenario. Not gonna bother with the others.


----------



## Freechoice (Sep 15, 2014)

Featless characters vs featless characters 

Green Bull vs EOS Zoro? Wtf is that shit

People arguing about who wins too


----------



## Freechoice (Sep 15, 2014)

How about Hooblywozzle and Klafishajigga vs Zoro with six noses and two foreheads


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I respect your views, but that's not really how burden of proof works.  The one making the assertion assumes the burden of proof.  I'm merely stating an opinion, and have made it clear that it's an opinion.  You're making an assertion.  Like I said, if you want to just say it's your opinion, then that's fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i'm not stating an opinion. i'm stating manga feats, feats > opinions. admirals > yonkou. fuck logic.
and akainu was roasting him out of fun.
iirc, he was warned the panel just before he got hit. WB by that time had his attack ready and was already right behind akainu, that's not much of a warning, if at all.
but the featless guy is top 5 tho. feats>ur illogical opinion.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 15, 2014)

What said:


> How about Hooblywozzle and Klafishajigga vs Zoro with six noses and two foreheads



Hooblywozzle obviously neg diffs Zoro. His teammate Klafishajigga dies in the crossfire.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Akainu received a warning of Whitebeard's presence, and there were two panels between when he was warned and when he was hit.  So, that IMO nullifies it being a surprise attack.  Had he just ignored the warning or something to that effect, then I would maybe still count it.


Once again, talking is a free action, that doesn't tell us at all how much time passed, and Whitebeard had prepped his attack before striking.


Gohara said:


> That's a debatable point


Whitebeard was in no condition to take on an Admiral or Yonko in a fair fight in that state, he was having heart attacks, Kizaru was toying with him after his insides got melted, he easily held down the old man's bisento with one foot, and Whitebeard couldn't even dodge Akainu's only attack.


Gohara said:


> It's not really about what Doflamingo's techniques are made out of, but about how much he's able to encompass in his techniques.
> 
> Plus, one could argue that Doflamingo's Bird Cage destroying Fujitora's meteors was a side effect.
> 
> Had Doflamingo and Luffy taken 10 days to do those things and they each had help doing that, then I would lean towards Akainu's and Aokiji's feat as being more impressive.  However, they did those things within minutes.


So making a bunch of strings and destroying a wooden ship is more impressive than changing an island's climate as a side effect. Seems legit. If the Admirals actually focused on the island, there would be no island for long.


Gohara said:


> I didn't


It seems you did, because you apparently think the Admirals didn't fight evenly with Whitebeard.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 15, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Zoro soloing two Admirals?



Possibly, yes.  



monkey d ace said:


> i'm not stating an opinion. i'm stating manga feats, feats > opinions. admirals > yonkou. fuck logic.
> but the featless guy is top 5 tho. feats>ur illogical opinion.



Feats are often subjective, especially in how they are applied.  So, while they potentially serve as evidence (although I disagree with your interpretation of them in this case), they don't serve as proof.  Especially since we have different interpretations of the feats in question.



monkey d ace said:


> and akainu was roasting him out of fun.



I doubt he was having fun.  His pain expressed a great deal of pain, and he was coughing up blood and cursing out Whitebeard.



monkey d ace said:


> iirc, he was warned the panel just before he got hit. WB by that time had his attack ready and was already right behind akainu, that's not much of a warning, if at all.



There were two panels between when he was warned and when he got hit.  There was a panel of Whitebeard's face, with dots showing that he was thinking, and then a panel of Ace's body.  This is in addition to the panel before those panels in which he was warned of Whitebeard's presence.  So, you could say he had 2-3 panels and a warning of Whitebeard's presence.



Issho D Tea said:


> Once again, talking is a free action, that doesn't tell us at all how much time passed



I'm not saying it was a lot of extra time, but there was still extra time in between in addition to the warning of Whitebeard's presence.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard was in no condition to take on an Admiral or Yonko in a fair fight in that state, he was having heart attacks, Kizaru was toying with him after his insides got melted, he easily held down the old man's bisento with one foot, and Whitebeard couldn't even dodge Akainu's only attack.



Even with those disadvantages, I'm not sure I agree that Akainu bests him.  Plus, I don't consider it a surprise attack, and as such it's no different to me than the scenario you're proposing in which Whitebeard bested him.

Whitebeard put himself in a disadvantageous position by reaching out with his weapon just for the sake of stopping Kizaru from going to where Luffy was.  It left him open for an attack.  I wouldn't say that's Kizaru toying with him.  It's just Kizaru taking advantage of Whitebeard being open for an attack, IMO.

I think Whitebeard not dodging Akainu's attack was just because he didn't care at that point.  He was so angry he just wanted to pummel Akainu, and that's what he did.



Issho D Tea said:


> So making a bunch of strings and destroying a wooden ship is more impressive than changing an island's climate as a side effect. Seems legit. If the Admirals actually focused on the island, there would be no island for long.



Again, what Doflamingo's techniques are made of isn't really important.  It's a matter of how much his techniques encompass.  Even if his techniques are made out of plastic, if he can do something that encompasses an entire island that can cause damage to anyone on that island- and not to mention can destroy meteors- I find that to be extremely impressive.  Especially since it only took him a matter of seconds or minutes to create Bird Cage.  Same with Luffy destroying Noah.  It too happened in a matter of minutes.  Not to mention he did all of that with multiple disadvantages going in.  The damage Akainu and Aokiji did, while not as direct, took 10 days for them to do.



Issho D Tea said:


> It seems you did, because you apparently think the Admirals didn't fight evenly with Whitebeard.



That doesn't mean I didn't read your interpretation of what happened.  It just means I disagree with it.  

Whitebeard dealt Aokiji one or two blows.  Aokiji dealt Whitebeard no blows.  Whitebeard had Akainu unable to move for the rest of their fight and falling through a hole.  While Whitebeard is the one who died in the war and Akainu is the one who lived, the former got the last laugh over the latter in their specific fight.

When you take away all the disadvantages Whitebeard had, that tells me without them they aren't even in his league in a one on one fight.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 15, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Feats are often subjective, especially in how they are applied.  So, while they potentially serve as evidence (although I disagree with your interpretation of them in this case), they don't serve as proof.  Especially since we have different interpretations of the feats in question.


So in other words, if you don't like the feats, you just ignore them.


Gohara said:


> There were two panels between when he was warned and when he got hit.  There was a panel of Whitebeard's face, with dots showing that he was thinking, and then a panel of Ace's body.  This is in addition to the panel before those panels in which he was warned of Whitebeard's presence.  So, you could say he had 2-3 panels and a warning of Whitebeard's presence. I'm not saying it was a lot of extra time, but there was still extra time in between in addition to the warning of Whitebeard's presence.


Luffy and Sentomaru had a small speech with each other consisting of roughly about the same number of panels. Again, talking is a free action, we can't say how much time passed unless Oda specifically tells us what it was.


Gohara said:


> Even with those disadvantages, I'm not sure I agree that Akainu bests him.  Plus, I don't consider it a surprise attack


Too bad so sad. It was a surprise attack. Get over it.


Gohara said:


> Whitebeard put himself in a disadvantageous position by reaching out with his weapon just for the sake of stopping Kizaru from going to where Luffy was.  It left him open for an attack.  I wouldn't say that's Kizaru toying with him.  It's just Kizaru taking advantage of Whitebeard being open for an attack, IMO.


Whitebeard failed to make Kizaru tangible, and Kizaru retaliated by holding down his bisento, drilling a laser or two in the WSM, and shooting Ace's key all the while chilling on Whitebeard's bisento. Could have shot both Luffy and Whitebeard in the head, but hey, plot armor is gonna plot armor.


Gohara said:


> I think Whitebeard not dodging Akainu's attack was just because he didn't care at that point.  *He was so angry he just wanted to pummel Akainu*


And yet he didn't. He attacked once and Akainu had enough time to take half his face. And if Whitebeard felt like he could have taken Akainu in a clean fight in that condition, why did he choose to sneak up on him?


Gohara said:


> Again, what Doflamingo's techniques are made of isn't really important.  It's a matter of how much his techniques encompass.  Even if his techniques are made out of plastic, if he can do something that encompasses an entire island that can cause damage to anyone on that island- and not to mention can destroy meteors- I find that to be extremely impressive.



Covering an island in strings is more impressive than changing an island's climate as a side effect.


Gohara said:


> Especially since it only took him a matter of seconds or minutes to create Bird Cage.  Same with Luffy destroying Noah.  It too happened in a matter of minutes.  Not to mention he did all of that with multiple disadvantages going in.  The damage Akainu and Aokiji did, while not as direct, took 10 days for them to do.


Any of the Admirals could destroy Noah in about a few seconds. PH was a side effect of Akainu and Aokiji's battle. You really think they couldn't destroy the island itself in less than ten days?


Gohara said:


> Whitebeard dealt Aokiji one or two blows.


Which dealt zero damage to Aokiji.


Gohara said:


> Aokiji dealt Whitebeard *no blows.*





Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard vs Aokiji
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


You should actually pay attention to the manga.


Gohara said:


> Whitebeard had Akainu unable to move for the rest of their fight and falling through a hole.


Pretty sure Akainu was able to move, otherwise he would have drowned.


Gohara said:


> When you take away all the disadvantages Whitebeard had, that tells me without them they aren't even in his league in a one on one fight.


I'd post the panels of how the Admirals were able to fight Whitebeard again, but you just ignore them, so...
And any of the Admirals or Yonko could do the exact same thing as Whitebeard did if they get an attack when his back is turned.


----------



## Dunno (Sep 16, 2014)

monkey d ace said:


> i'm not stating an opinion. i'm stating manga feats, feats > opinions. admirals > yonkou. fuck logic.
> and akainu was roasting him out of fun.
> iirc, he was warned the panel just before he got hit. WB by that time had his attack ready and was already right behind akainu, that's not much of a warning, if at all.
> but the featless guy is top 5 tho. feats>ur illogical opinion.



Having feats is not necessarily a good thing. Most of the time it's actually bad. I think you would agree that Doflamingo is weaker than Kaido, right? According to your logic, Doflamingo would be superior until proven otherwise because he has better feats.


----------



## Venom (Sep 16, 2014)

S1. Zoro clears except for the Admiral duo who leldiff him


----------



## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> So in other words, if you don't like the feats, you just ignore them.



Well, I don't really see how I could like or dislike a feat.  If you mean if I don't find them impressive, that really depends.  I wouldn't say I ignore feats that I don't find impressive.

Either way I'm not sure how this responds to what I said here.  My point that feats and the way they are applied is subjective doesn't have anything to do with whether or not I am impressed with them.  It has more to do with just disagreeing with some of your interpretations of some of them.  I'm not ignoring them, though.  On the contrary, I wouldn't be disagreeing with them if I were ignoring them.



Issho D Tea said:


> Luffy and Sentomaru had a small speech with each other consisting of roughly about the same number of panels.



I'm not saying a lot of time passed.  A small speech worth of panels would be enough.  Especially when combined with the warning he received.



Issho D Tea said:


> It was a surprise attack.



I respectfully disagree.  He was given a warning and had time in between the warning and when he was hit.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard failed to make Kizaru tangible, and Kizaru retaliated by holding down his bisento, drilling a laser or two in the WSM, and shooting Ace's key all the while chilling on Whitebeard's bisento.



The first time it's not entirely clear what happens.  Either Kizaru dodges at the last second or Whitebeard did stop him (otherwise Kizaru would have just kept going).  The second time Kizaru dodges it, but Whitebeard left himself open to an attack by reaching just to stop him in the first place, which the latter only did for Luffy's sake.  In a fair one on one fight Whitebeard would be healed and fighting only to defeat his opponent.  Kizaru would not receive a free opening, and would have to deal with a fully healed Whitebeard.

Holding down Whitebeard's Bisento doesn't mean much, because we don't know that Whitebeard was even trying hard to shake him off.



Issho D Tea said:


> yet he didn't.



I disagree.  While he still took one blow from Akainu, he was still pummeling him into the ground and through a hole.



Issho D Tea said:


> And if Whitebeard felt like he could have taken Akainu in a clean fight in that condition, why did he choose to sneak up on him?



He came at him because he was angry, but coming at him that way didn't offer him any extra advantages.  Akainu was warned of Whitebeard's presence, and the former had time between that warning and when he was hit.  Whitebeard bested him fair and square.

I highly doubt Whitebeard was at all worried about Akainu.  He was pretty consistently referring to him and the other Admirals as little brats- and was okay with taking on multiple of them throughout the war while also fighting many others.

This still represents one of the biggest differences.  Akainu barely fought anyone else throughout his fight with Whitebeard.  Whitebeard fought many others, including a second Admiral and taking damage from a third Admiral.  Yet, despite that big disadvantage and other disadvantages such as the trickery committed by the marines and Whitebeard's illness, Whitebeard still bested Akainu overall.  If a massively handicapped Whitebeard can still best Akainu, I don't see the latter being in the former's league when there are no handicaps (other than Whitebeard's old age).



Issho D Tea said:


> Covering an island in strings is more impressive than changing an island's climate as a side effect.



I don't think I said it was more impressive, although it could be argued that it is.  I believe I said that I'm not notably more impressed by what Akainu and Aokiji did, if at all.

Also, I'm unsure of why it matters what Doflamingo's techniques are made out of.  If anything, it would just impress me more than Doflamingo can destroy meteors with strings than that Akainu can create a volcano with lava and Aokiji can create a frozen field with ice.  That is, if we're going to put emphasis on what the techniques are made out of.

Either way, Doflamingo and Luffy encompassed a similar area that Akainu and Aokiji did (actually Doflamingo likely covered a bigger area).  While what Akainu and Aokiji did was more permanent, Doflamingo and Luffy did those things thousands of times quicker and by themselves.



Issho D Tea said:


> Any of the Admirals could destroy Noah in about a few seconds.



We don't really know how long it would take them to do that while battle worn and underwater.  Luffy did it pretty quickly, so unless they destroy it instantly I don't see them doing a much better job than he did.



Issho D Tea said:


> Which dealt zero damage to Aokiji.



We don't really know that the first blow didn't hurt.  He just saw Whitebeard smash him into the ground.  There wouldn't have to be some type of blood visible for him to have been hurt/damaged by it.  As for the potential second blow, we don't know whether or not he was damaged.  I don't see anything clearly suggesting that he avoided it, but I'm not going to say it's impossible that he did.



Issho D Tea said:


> You should actually pay attention to the manga.



What chapter and page does Aokiji deal Whitebeard any blows in?  If you're able to show me, I will change my mind on that particular point and say Aokiji dealt him a blow.



Issho D Tea said:


> Pretty sure Akainu was able to move, otherwise he would have drowned.



I was talking about during the rest of their fight/confrontation.  I'm not saying he was never able to move again.  



Issho D Tea said:


> I'd post the panels of how the Admirals were able to fight Whitebeard again, but you just ignore them, so



Disagreeing =/= ignoring.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Well, I don't really see how I could like or dislike a feat.  If you mean if I don't find them impressive, that really depends.  I wouldn't say I ignore feats that I don't find impressive.


You're right, you don't ignore them because you don't find them impressive, you ignore feats because they don't suit your argument.


Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.


Bully for you.


Gohara said:


> The first time it's not entirely clear what happens.  Either Kizaru dodges at the last second or Whitebeard did stop him (otherwise Kizaru would have just kept going).


Simple. Whitebeard failed to make him tangible, but he managed to interrupt Kizaru from going after Luffy.


Gohara said:


> In a fair one on one fight Whitebeard would be healed and fighting only to defeat his opponent.  Kizaru would not receive a free opening, and would have to deal with a fully healed Whitebeard.


Except in this instance, Whitebeard had the element of surprise, yet it was Kizaru who came out on top.


Gohara said:


> Holding down Whitebeard's Bisento doesn't mean much, *because we don't know that Whitebeard was even trying hard to shake him off.*


Whitebeard wouldn't be trying hard to shake off Kizaru after the Admiral plugged him full of holes? What kind of cancer is this?


Gohara said:


> I disagree.  While he still took one blow from Akainu, he was still pummeling him into the ground and through a hole.


There was time before the second attack, Whitebeard was just standing there after his first blow, and Akainu had enough time to tear half his brains out.


Gohara said:


> He came at him because he was angry, but coming at him that way didn't offer him any extra advantages.


So are you saying that Whitebeard was worried approaching Akainu straight on? 


Gohara said:


> This still represents one of the biggest differences.  Akainu barely fought anyone else throughout his fight with Whitebeard.  Whitebeard fought many others, including a second Admiral and taking damage from a third Admiral.  Yet, despite that big disadvantage and other disadvantages such as the trickery committed by the marines and Whitebeard's illness, Whitebeard still bested Akainu overall.


Through ambush, and once again, any of the Admirals could do the exact same thing to Whitebeard in that situation.


Gohara said:


> Also, I'm unsure of why it matters what Doflamingo's techniques are made out of.  If anything, *it would just impress me more than Doflamingo can destroy meteors with strings than that Akainu can create a volcano with lava and Aokiji can create a frozen field with ice.*





Gohara said:


> Either way, Doflamingo and Luffy encompassed a similar area that Akainu and Aokiji did (actually Doflamingo likely covered a bigger area).  While what Akainu and Aokiji did was more permanent, Doflamingo and Luffy did those things thousands of times quicker and by themselves.
> 
> We don't really know how long it would take them to do that while battle worn and underwater.  Luffy did it pretty quickly, so unless they destroy it instantly I don't see them doing a much better job than he did.


Great Eruption. 

Ice Age. 

Yasakani no Magatama. 


Pick the way Noah leaves this world. 


Gohara said:


> We don't really know that the first blow didn't hurt.  He just saw Whitebeard smash him into the ground.  There wouldn't have to be some type of blood visible for him to have been hurt/damaged by it.  As for the potential second blow, we don't know whether or not he was damaged.  I don't see anything clearly suggesting that he avoided it, but I'm not going to say it's impossible that he did.


Whitebeard failed to make Aokiji tangible, so no, he didn't injure Aokiji.


Gohara said:


> What chapter and page does Aokiji deal Whitebeard any blows in?  If you're able to show me, I will change my mind on that particular point and say Aokiji dealt him a blow.


I already showed it multiple times.


Gohara said:


> I was talking about during the rest of their fight/confrontation.


Akainu hit the ground that was already crumbling and underneath him was a vast gorge of water. If he couldn't move, he would have hit the water and drowned.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> You're right, you don't ignore them because you don't find them impressive, you ignore feats because they don't suit your argument.



Disagreeing with your interpretation of feats and/or how you apply them =/= ignoring them.



Issho D Tea said:


> Simple. Whitebeard failed to make him tangible, but he managed to interrupt Kizaru from going after Luffy.



If Whitebeard failed to make him tangible, then Kizaru wouldn't have been interrupted.  He could have just kept going like nothing touched him.



Issho D Tea said:


> Except in this instance, Whitebeard had the element of surprise, yet it was Kizaru who came out on top.



Whitebeard didn't use his element of surprise to try to deal damage to Kizaru.  He used it to reach out to stop Kizaru from leaving the area, because if he didn't do so quickly then Kizaru would have left that area.  Whitebeard sacrificed an opening on himself in exchange for keeping Kizaru from going to where Luffy is.  Kizaru took advantage of that opening.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard wouldn't be trying hard to shake off Kizaru after the Admiral plugged him full of holes?



Kizaru shot him once, and stands on his Bisento for one panel at the same time.  There weren't any panels after that where Kizaru is still standing on his Bisento.



Issho D Tea said:


> There was time before the second attack



That doesn't mean he wasn't pummeling him.  I assume you're saying this because you think I'm implying that he was constantly hitting at him, but "pummeling" isn't limited to that sole definition.



Issho D Tea said:


> So are you saying that Whitebeard was worried approaching Akainu straight on?



Nope.  I highly doubt he was particularly worried about him at all.  



Issho D Tea said:


> Through ambush



Akainu was warned about Whitebeard's presence and given multiple panels between the warning and when he was hit.  So, I don't think it was a surprise attack.



Issho D Tea said:


> any of the Admirals could do the exact same thing to Whitebeard in that situation.



I don't see any battle worn Admiral fairly besting another Admiral after taking damage from many others and being fought against/damaged by two other Admirals prior to that.



Issho D Tea said:


> Pick the way Noah leaves this world.



Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji weren't nearly as battle worn as Luffy was in those links.  Furthermore, they weren't underwater like Luffy was.  Plus, those links don't tell me they can destroy half an island instantly.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard failed to make Aokiji tangible, so no, he didn't injure Aokiji.



The first time he didn't fail to do that, and the second time I disagree that he failed to do that- although there's no proof one way or the other.



Issho D Tea said:


> I already showed it multiple times.



The only thing I can think of that you could be referring to is Ice Ball, but it wasn't a blow.  It was an attempt at one, that Whitebeard foiled without a problem.



Issho D Tea said:


> Akainu hit the ground that was already crumbling and underneath him was a vast gorge of water. If he couldn't move, he would have hit the water and drowned.



We only see him fall through a big hole.  We don't see any water.  While there may have been water and he may have stopped himself from falling in it at the last second, this all would have happened after the period of time I'm referring to.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> If Whitebeard failed to make him tangible, then Kizaru wouldn't have been interrupted.


Not really. Whitebeard still managed to get in his way of getting to Luffy.


Gohara said:


> Whitebeard didn't use his element of surprise to try to deal damage to Kizaru.


Why wouldn't he? Attacking an Admiral without intending to hurt them, just after getting your insides melted, seems pretty stupid if you ask me.


Gohara said:


> Kizaru shot him once, and stands on his Bisento for one panel at the same time.


Whitebeard couldn't shake him off and Kizaru felt like he could take time out of his day to troll Luffy at the same time. Whitebeard's encounters with the Admirals after Akainu pumped his chest full of magma show that he wasn't in any condition to fight an Admiral in a fair fight anymore.


Gohara said:


> Nope.  I highly doubt he was particularly worried about him at all.


So why did Whitebeard choose to sneak up on Akainu instead of charging straight at him? 


Gohara said:


> So, I don't think it was a surprise attack.





Gohara said:


> I don't see any battle worn Admiral fairly besting another Admiral after taking damage from many others and being fought against/damaged by two other Admirals prior to that.


An Admiral sneaking up behind Whitebeard/another Admiral would be able to drill a laser/magma fist through his brains, freeze his head then pop it off, slice his head off with a gravity slash, etc.


Gohara said:


> Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji weren't nearly as battle worn as Luffy was in those links.


An Akainu fresh from Whitebeard's Island Splitter was able to fight the entire WB Crew, and they're capable of insane feats of destruction, so I'm pretty sure they can destroy Noah pretty darn quick.


Gohara said:


> Plus, those links don't tell me they can destroy half an island instantly.


I never said that they could destroy an island instantly. I only said that it wouldn't take them ten days to do so.


Gohara said:


> The first time he didn't fail to do that


Yes he did...


Gohara said:


> and the second time I disagree that he failed to do that.


Too bad it happened.


Gohara said:


> The only thing I can think of that you could be referring to is Ice Ball, but it wasn't a blow.


It was an attack and it made contact. The only reason Whitebeard escaped was because he had already charged a quake beforehand.


Gohara said:


> It was an attempt at one, that Whitebeard foiled without a problem.


Then he failed to make Aokiji tangible again and Jozu felt like he needed to step in and save his captain from Aokiji's attack.


Gohara said:


> We only see him fall through a big hole.  We don't see any water.



:ignoramus


Gohara said:


> While there may have been water and he may have stopped himself from falling in it at the last second, this all would have happened after the period of time I'm referring to.


That all happened near instantly. Akainu would have had to been able to move fast or he would have drowned.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Not really. Whitebeard still managed to get in his way of getting to Luffy.



Kizaru would have no reason to stop when something just goes right through him, so either it didn't fail to make him intangible or he knew that it wouldn't fail to make him intangible and therefore dodged it.



Issho D Tea said:


> Why wouldn't he?



His focus was more on making sure he didn't go to where Luffy was.  If he took that opening and took the time to attack specifically he could have allowed Kizaru just enough time to get away and go to where Luffy is.  Just reaching out with his Bisento would have been much quicker, but at the same time wasn't as good of an idea if he just wanted to damage Kizaru, since it would be far from his strongest attack and would leave him open for an attack.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard couldn't shake him off and Kizaru felt like he could take time out of his day to troll Luffy at the same time.



Kizaru was only shown to have his foot on Whitebeard's Bisento for one panel.  The things you're describing are things he did after that one panel.



Issho D Tea said:


> So why did Whitebeard choose to sneak up on Akainu instead of charging straight at him?



Whitebeard wasn't making a calculative attack.  He was going after Akainu out of rage, regardless of which way Akainu was facing.  Even then, there's still the fact that Akainu was warned about Whitebeard's presence and had multiple panels between that and when he was hit.



Issho D Tea said:


> An Admiral sneaking up behind Whitebeard/another Admiral would be able to drill a laser/magma fist through his brains, freeze his head then pop it off, slice his head off with a gravity slash, etc.



If we account for the warning and multiple panels in between I disagree it would go that way.  In fact I'm not sure it would go that way even without accounting for those things.



Issho D Tea said:


> An Akainu fresh from Whitebeard's Island Splitter was able to fight the entire WB Crew, and they're capable of insane feats of destruction, so I'm pretty sure they can destroy Noah pretty darn quick.



We didn't see him fight any of them during that confrontation.  The feats of destruction have usually- if not always- been while they were fully healed or mostly healed.  Also, this still isn't accounting for them being under water.

While it's possible Akainu could destroy it quickly despite those disadvantages, Luffy was able to destroy it quickly as well.



Issho D Tea said:


> Yes he did



If he did then Aokiji wouldn't have been knocked to the ground.  He would have just stood there.



Issho D Tea said:


> Too bad it happened.



There's no proof one way or the other.  When we initially debated this I'm fairly certain you agreed that it couldn't be proven, but that to you it seemed that way.  



Issho D Tea said:


> It was an attack and it made contact. The only reason Whitebeard escaped was because he had already charged a quake beforehand.



It was an unsuccessful attempt at an attack.

Saying that's the only reason Whitebeard escaped is speculative.



Issho D Tea said:


> Jozu felt like he needed to step in and save his captain from Aokiji's attack.



This could just as easily be interpreted as Jozu not thinking Whitebeard needs to waste his focus and time on Aokiji.  Especially since Whitebeard just left him to Jozu.



Issho D Tea said:


> That all happened near instantly. Akainu would have had to been able to move fast or he would have drowned.



The link you posted doesn't show Akainu falling down to the water, but even if all of that is true it was a long drop and this still would have happened after the period of time I was referring to.  Not to mention Akainu could have just latched on to the platform he was on so he himself didn't land in the water.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Kizaru would have no reason to stop when something just goes right through him, so either it didn't fail to make him intangible or he knew that it wouldn't fail to make him intangible and therefore dodged it.


Kizaru can't go through solid objects and Whitebeard interrupted him mid teleportation (which can be done without making contact with the DF user's actual body).


Gohara said:


> His focus was more on making sure he didn't go to where Luffy was.  If he took that opening and took the time to attack specifically he could have allowed Kizaru just enough time to get away and go to where Luffy is.  Just reaching out with his Bisento would have been much quicker, but at the same time wasn't as good of an idea if he just wanted to damage Kizaru, since it would be far from his strongest attack and would leave him open for an attack.


Did you miss my previous post by any chance?


Gohara said:


> Kizaru was only shown to have his foot on Whitebeard's Bisento for one panel.  The things you're describing are things he did after that one panel.


Nothing shows Kizaru moved from his spot.


Gohara said:


> Whitebeard wasn't making a calculative attack.


So why did he feel like attacking Akainu when he wasn't looking instead of charging at him? 


Gohara said:


> If we account for the warning and multiple panels in between I disagree it would go that way.  In fact I'm not sure it would go that way even without accounting for those things.
> 
> We didn't see him fight any of them during that confrontation.  The feats of destruction have usually- if not always- been while they were fully healed or mostly healed.  Also, this still isn't accounting for them being under water.
> 
> While it's possible Akainu could destroy it quickly despite those disadvantages, Luffy was able to destroy it quickly as well.





Gohara said:


> If he did then Aokiji wouldn't have been knocked to the ground.  He would have just stood there.


WTF are you talking about? Aokiji was hundreds of feet in the air when the first quake shattered him in his Logia state (wasn't injured btw, so he managed to keep his intangibility), ofc he'd fall back to the ground, he can't fly.


Gohara said:


> There's no proof one way or the other.


Aokiji wasn't shown with injuries when Whitebeard struck him.


Gohara said:


> It was an unsuccessful attempt at an attack.
> 
> Saying that's the only reason Whitebeard escaped is speculative.


So how would Whitebeard have escaped if he hadn't had a quake charged?


Gohara said:


> This could just as easily be interpreted as Jozu not thinking Whitebeard needs to waste his focus and time on Aokiji.


Whitebeard wasn't attacking Aokiji as the Admiral charged at him.


Gohara said:


> The link you posted doesn't show Akainu falling down to the water


You said you didn't see any water, so I simply posted the best panel to prove you wrong...again.


Gohara said:


> but even if all of that is true it was a long drop and this still would have happened after the period of time I was referring to.  Not to mention Akainu could have just latched on to the platform he was on so he himself didn't land in the water.


He was tumbling down on the ground after he hit it, so no...


----------



## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Kizaru can't go through solid objects and Whitebeard interrupted him mid teleportation (which can be done without making contact with the DF user's actual body).



Intangibility protects against physical attacks.  Given that his element is light, it should be passing right through him just like Brook's attacks.

Even if you were correct on this, it doesn't mean Whitebeard _couldn't_ have forced Kizaru to be tangible by using one of his most powerful attacks or putting more effort into it.



Issho D Tea said:


> Did you miss my previous post by any chance?



Nope.  I was responding to what you said in your previous post.  



Issho D Tea said:


> Nothing shows Kizaru moved from his spot.



Nothing also shows that his foot was still on the Bisento after that.  As you're the one making the assertion that he was doing all those things while still having his foot on the Bisento, the burden of proof would be on you to prove that he was.



Issho D Tea said:


> So why did he feel like attacking Akainu when he wasn't looking instead of charging at him?



I'm not sure what you mean here.  Whitebeard did charge at him.  Akainu's positioning at the time wouldn't matter because Whitebeard was charging at him while angry.



Issho D Tea said:


> Aokiji was hundreds of feet in the air when the first quake shattered him in his Logia state (wasn't injured btw, so he managed to keep his intangibility), ofc he'd fall back to the ground, he can't fly.





This is how I interpreted it.  Aokiji didn't just fall.  He was knocked away by Whitebeard.



Issho D Tea said:


> Aokiji wasn't shown with injuries when Whitebeard struck him.



It wasn't made clear one way or the other if he had injuries.  I wouldn't expect a ton of blood to gush out or anything of that nature.  It's possible that he was still wounded and we just didn't see for a fact that he was.



Issho D Tea said:


> So how would Whitebeard have escaped if he hadn't had a quake charged?



Possibly the same way Doflamingo did.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard wasn't attacking Aokiji as the Admiral charged at him.



This doesn't mean that he wouldn't have countered the attack.  Furthermore, it's possible that he could sense Jozu was going to intercept him.



Issho D Tea said:


> You said you didn't see any water



I was talking about in the panel in which Akainu was shown falling through.  I'm not saying there was no water anywhere in the battlefield.  Essentially, I'm just saying that we don't know that Akainu would have fallen in the water.  Whether that's because he wasn't falling towards it or because he stayed on the platform he was on is unknown, but my point here is that it's a possibility.  Even if your guess was correct, that still would have taken place after the period of time that I mentioned.  So, this is all semantics.



Issho D Tea said:


> He was tumbling down on the ground after he hit it, so no



I'm not sure how this really responds to what I said.  Are you saying no to him latching onto the platform that he was on as him and the platform were falling off?


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 16, 2014)

Gohara said:


> Intangibility protects against physical attacks.  Given that his element is light, it should be passing right through him just like Brook's attacks.



Kizaru's elemental state can still be dispersed, as shown by the WB Commanders.


Gohara said:


> Even if you were correct on this, it doesn't mean Whitebeard _couldn't_ have forced Kizaru to be tangible by using one of his most powerful attacks or putting more effort into it.


Whitebeard was only able to bypass one of the Admirals' intangibility when he was bloodlusted.


Gohara said:


> Nothing also shows that his foot was still on the Bisento after that.


Until you show me proof otherwise, I'm going to assume Kizaru kept his spot on the bisento.


Gohara said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here.  Whitebeard did charge at him.


He snuck up behind Akainu and waited until his attack was prepped instead of lashing out in rage. Now why would he have done that? 


Gohara said:


> This is how I interpreted it.  Aokiji didn't just fall.  He was knocked away by Whitebeard.


 Anime =/= manga dude, otherwise Blackbeard was capable of gaining an edge over Whitebeard, instead of being the fodder that he was.


Gohara said:


> It wasn't made clear one way or the other if he had injuries.  I wouldn't expect a ton of blood to gush out or anything of that nature.


You think getting hit by an earthquake wouldn't have gushing out blood right away if it made contact with Aokiji's actual body (which happened once Whitebeard bypassed Akainu's Logia defense)?


Gohara said:


> Possibly the same way Doflamingo did.


Ice Ball was far FAR more potent and dangerous than the attack Aokiji used on Doflamingo, it was just a warning shot for Doflamingo.


Gohara said:


> This doesn't mean that he wouldn't have countered the attack.  Furthermore, it's possible that he could sense Jozu was going to intercept him.


If he could have stopped the attack beforehand, why would he risk letting Jozu do it for him? Jozu may not have made it in time.


Gohara said:


> I'm not sure how this really responds to what I said.  Are you saying no to him latching onto the platform that he was on as him and the platform were falling off?


You're smart. Figure it out.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 16, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Kizaru's elemental state can still be dispersed, as shown by the WB Commanders.



We don't know if that character was using Haki, nor do we see the attack stopping Kizaru in his tracks.  If we're going to say Whitebeard wasn't using Haki, then that even less shows that Whitebeard _couldn't_ force Kizaru to be tangible.



Issho D Tea said:


> Whitebeard was only able to bypass one of the Admirals' intangibility when he was bloodlusted.



Whether or not he couldn't force Aokiji and Kizaru to be tangible is still a debatable point.



Issho D Tea said:


> Until you show me proof otherwise, I'm going to assume Kizaru kept his spot on the bisento.



That's fine.  As long as you agree that it's just your own personal guess.  



Issho D Tea said:


> He snuck up behind Akainu and waited until his attack was prepped instead of lashing out in rage. Now why would he have done that?



We don't know when the attack was ready.  If it was then okay, but if it wasn't then that just gave Akainu even more time.



Issho D Tea said:


> Anime =/= manga dude



My apologies for the confusion.  I wasn't saying it happened that way because the Anime showed it to.  Rather, I'm just saying I interpreted it the same way the Anime did.



Issho D Tea said:


> You think getting hit by an earthquake wouldn't have gushing out blood right away if it made contact with Aokiji's actual body (which happened once Whitebeard bypassed Akainu's Logia defense)?



If I remember correctly, Whitebeard's attack on Akainu was more direct and we saw him up close.  Whitebeard was at a distance from Aokiji and we only saw the latter's back as it was happening.

Even if on the chance that Aokiji didn't bleed out of his mouth, that doesn't mean it didn't hurt.



Issho D Tea said:


> Ice Ball was far FAR more potent and dangerous than the attack Aokiji used on Doflamingo



Is there proof of that?  Even if there is, Doflamingo broke out of it without much of a problem, and Whitebeard is significantly more powerful than Doflamingo.



Issho D Tea said:


> If he could have stopped the attack beforehand, why would he risk letting Jozu do it for him? Jozu may not have made it in time.



It's very possible that he didn't see it as a risk because he was certain Jozu would have made it in time given the distance and his speed.  This also doesn't mean that Whitebeard couldn't have countered Aokiji had Jozu not intercepted him.



Issho D Tea said:


> You're smart. Figure it out.



Thanks for the kind words, but your response lacked clarity.  I said many different things and you responded with "no".  There are a number of things you could have been responding to, and rather than venturing a guess I find it more logical to just ask what you were referring to.


----------



## Venom (Sep 16, 2014)

Why all this argumentation?
Zoro solos


----------



## trance (Sep 16, 2014)

Semantics? Semantics.


----------



## Turrin (Sep 17, 2014)

I'll only bother with the first scenario

Zoro should be noticeably stronger than Prime Raleigh by EOS, given his status as First-Mate of the SH's and it being obvious that the SHs will at some point surpass the Roger Pirates.

Kizaru - I'll start with the easiest first. Old Raliegh was fighting evenly with him, and regardless of who would have won it's clear Prime Raliegh would have defeated him hands down. EOS Zoro being stronger than Prime-Raliegh should also win.

Fujitora/Green Bull -  As far as Green Bull and Fujitora are concerned, right now they haven't even proven themselves to be as strong as Kizaru, let alone stronger; so until they show a-lot more I'm pretty confident EOS Zoro has there number.

Aokiji - I consider Aokiji stronger than Kizaru, but I think he'd be lucky if the gap between him and Kizaru is larger than the gap between Prime Raliegh and Kizaru; and i mean really lucky. So EOS Zoro whose stronger than Prime Raliegh should win

Mihawk - Obviously he'll be better than him do to being WSS.

Big Mom/Shanks  - There is too little know about the Yonko to say anything for certain, but if I had to guess I'd favor Zoro.

Prime Garp - Given how much of fight Shiki gave him it's hard for me to imagine EOS Zoro loosing.

Pre-Skip Aokiji + Akainu - Could really go ether way. Prime Raliegh obviously could take on Kizaru as well as others, but Pacifist/Kuma/Sentomaru are hardly Akainu or Aokiji "level", even combined. So even if Prime Raliegh could defeat them all that in no way ensure he could defeat 2 Admirals. Though Zoro will be even stronger. So he may or may not be able to win. The inclusion of Akainu though makes me have extreme doubts that he could, but I won't rule out that possibility.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 17, 2014)

Old Rayleigh was fighting evenly with Kizaru in a swordfight.


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 17, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Old Rayleigh was fighting evenly with Kizaru in a swordfight.



Why should Kizaru stick to his light sword when he could do better otherwise?


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 17, 2014)

Vengeance said:


> Why should Kizaru stick to his light sword when he could do better otherwise?



Idk.For the same reasons he didn't shoot a laser through WB's head.

Swordsmanship isn't Kizaru's main fighting style.


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 17, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Idk.For the same reasons he didn't shoot a laser through WB's head.
> 
> Swordsmanship isn't Kizaru's main fighting style.



It's more likely that Oda intended to show the readers that Kizaru and Rayleigh are on the same level more or less than that the former would have had the upper hand by fighting Rayleigh differently. If he wanted to establish Kizaru's superiority, he could have done that while still having opportunities to keep the same general plot line.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 17, 2014)

I doubt that Rayleigh would be capable of taking a barrage of lasers.

And he established Kizaru's superiority when Rayleigh was getting tired while Kizaru was completely fine.


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 17, 2014)

^ Rayleigh is no slouch, he can do way more than simple sword-clashing. Don?t be so sure about this. Besides it?s doubtful Oda wanted to establish Kizaru?s superiority since Rayleigh has been shown capable enough to injure him and Kiz himself made it clear he couldn?t handle this fight as easily as you implied.

Besides it?s not the first time Kizaru was matched-up with first mates so it?s save to assume this is his general level.


----------



## Vengeance (Sep 18, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> I doubt that Rayleigh would be capable of taking a barrage of lasers.
> 
> And he established Kizaru's superiority when Rayleigh was getting tired while Kizaru was completely fine.



Referred to their general level, the only issue Rayleigh had after some time was stamina.
Rayleigh could dodge or block the lasers or whatever, we don't know. What matters first is the actual portrayal and its message, not scenarios we think of.


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 18, 2014)

^So much this. Also the stamina-issue is possibly due to him being out of shape considering he swam through the calmbelt no sweat shorty afterwards. So it?s not all that crazy to think he could do much better with a bit of training.


----------

