# Jiren Vs Martian Manhunter



## Blanco (Nov 7, 2017)

Who win?

Jiren vs Pre-crisis martian manhunter


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 7, 2017)

...

You serious?

At least specify which version this is. Post-Crisis and New 52 get stomped but Pre-Crisis stomp.


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## Toratorn (Nov 7, 2017)

Unless John manages to mindfuck him, he gets wrecked. That's for Post-Crisis/New 52, no idea about Pre-Crisis.

What are their speed stats?


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 7, 2017)

Toratorn said:


> Unless John manages to mindfuck him, he gets wrecked. That's for Post-Crisis/New 52, no idea about Pre-Crisis.
> 
> What are their speed stats?


Quadrillions of c's minimum. Maximum is sextillions of c's depending on if you think J'onn can move at the same top speed as Wondy can.

Pre-Crisis J'onn has the same overall stats as Superman. Universal+ to an infinite degree and with infinite speed and reactions with mind hax on top of that.

So yeah, it's either a hax match in favor of Post-Crisis/New 52 J'onn or a fisticuffs match with Pre-Crisis J'onn.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

>Jiren

>quadrillion

Jiren doesn't even have any FTL reactions as of yet, Dypso surpassing "light" was clear hyperbole.the surpassing light and sound statement wasn't even in the same sentence as Dyspo saying he can amplify his speed thousands of times. Hell, the statements was exactly 51 seconds after he was said to be able to surpass light, this meaning these two lines have zero coronation to each other, especially when it was given that more was said between. 

Dyspo and Hit were moving slower than sound before Dyspo jumped his speed. This is proven when Dyspo himself admitted he was listening for the sound Hit made right before doing his time skip and blitzing him.

 Sound travels 1,225 km/h or 761.2 mph. How fast is light? 299,792 km/s (186,282 mps) or 1,079,252,848 km/h (670,616,629 mph). That's 881,023x the speed of sound Him moving thousands of times faster than when he was listening for sound is SLOWER than light

Reactions: Funny 3 | Dislike 4


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> >Jiren
> 
> >quadrillion
> 
> ...


I was talking about Post-Crisis J'onn not Jiren 

And I'm not gonna bother responding to the rest of that. I'll leave others to do that for me.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> Dyspo and Hit were moving slower than sound before Dyspo jumped his speed. This is proven when Dyspo himself admitted he was listening for the sound Hit made right before doing his time skip and blitzing him.



Seriously?  This is one of your arguments?  Claiming that Dragon Ball Super characters with the power to destroy _a Universe _are slower than sound when they fight?

Have you ever considered that Dyspo has something called _super-hearing?  _You know, the thing that allows the Big Blue Boy Scout to hear a special frequency sound ring from across stellar distances _when sound cannot travel in space, _much less at FTL speeds_? 
_


Comic fan 101 said:


> Jiren doesn't even have any FTL reactions as of yet, Dypso surpassing "light" was clear hyperbole.the surpassing light and sound statement wasn't even in the same sentence as Dyspo saying he can amplify his speed thousands of times. Hell, the statements was exactly 51 seconds after he was said to be able to surpass light, this meaning these two lines have zero coronation to each other, especially when it was given that more was said between.



Entire episodes in the Tournament of Power have been equating to _one minute in-Universe, _for the most part.  So, that is hardly 51 seconds.  You'd know that if you watched the series.

Reactions: Like 7


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Seriously?  This is one of your arguments?  Claiming that Dragon Ball Super characters with the power to destroy _a Universe _are slower than sound when they fight?
> 
> Have you ever considered that Dyspo has something called _super-hearing?  _You know, the thing that allows the Big Blue Boy Scout to hear a special frequency sound ring from across stellar distances _when sound cannot travel in space, _much less at FTL speeds_?
> _
> ...



I didn't know you had to be FTL to destroy a universe. that's news to me but then again you don't really have nothing besides suppositons

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> I didn't know you had to be FTL to destroy a universe. that's news to me but then again you don't really have nothing besides suppositons



Then explain to me how Beerus can traverse vast distances across space on his own, as seen in early Dragon Ball Super.

This is not about needing to be FTL to destroy a Universe, though I suppose you'd twist anything around to try to get a "win".


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 7, 2017)

Depending on which MMH, I'm leaning towards him. All that being said, MMH has had decades upon decades to do his thing and I would not be surprised if Jiren obliterates MMH before his 30-40 episode tale is over.

ToP is slated to end in March and Jiren's already championship tier, OP.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Then explain to me how Beerus can traverse vast distances across space on his own, as seen in early Dragon Ball Super.
> 
> This is not about needing to be FTL to destroy a Universe, though I suppose you'd twist anything around to try to get a "win".



Travel speed. not combat speed. he nor jiren hasn't demonstrated any FTL combat speed feat yet

I don't have time for your fan fiction right now. take it up with someone else

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Atem (Nov 7, 2017)

egressmadara said:


> lolcombatspeed.



My favorite one is when they argue that flight speed only applies to travel speed even when flight speed is explicitly used in combat. Say, when Thragg fights any other viltrumites for example.


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## Blade (Nov 7, 2017)

Jiren finger flicks him

unless it's his Pre-Crisis version

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> Depending on which MMH, I'm leaning towards him. All that being said, MMH has had decades upon decades to do his thing and I would not be surprised if Jiren obliterates MMH before his 30-40 episode tale is over.
> 
> ToP is slated to end in March and Jiren's already championship tier, OP.



Possibly.  No one so far has pushed Jiren to use his full power (outside of Hit's Cage of Time, potentially), and Jiren has been confirmed to be the mortal more powerful than a God of Destruction.

In other words, Jiren is certified Universe + Level, and scales to Beerus' speed.



Comic fan 101 said:


> Travel speed. not combat speed. he nor jiren hasn't demonstrated any FTL combat speed feat yet
> 
> I don't have time for your fan fiction right now. take it up with someone else



Your argument is called Combat Speed Fallacy, so congratulations for bringing it back, after it hadn't been seen for the past year.

Gotta add this one to the Fantastic Fallacies thread, thanks to you.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> Travel speed. not combat speed. he nor jiren hasn't demonstrated any FTL combat speed feat yet


This again. We don't do combat speed here. 

We know that basically every character in DBS can move and perceive things at MFTL speeds. That's all that is needed to fight at MFTL speeds. We know that Beerus can cross interstellar distances on his own power. Jiren scales to Beerus, so they are both MFTL. Simple as that.

The show's erroneous claims about Dyspo reaching light-speed don't mean anything when every character in the ToP is already confirmed MFTL. Feats over statements.   

Oh, and I don't see how everyone doesn't get LS "combat speed" just from being in the Tournament of Power. The first episode had fighters crisscrossing the stage for 20 real-world minutes only for the narrator to confirm that only 1 minute had passed in DBS time.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Possibly.  No one so far has pushed Jiren to use his full power (outside of Hit's Cage of Time, potentially), and Jiren has been confirmed to be the mortal more powerful than a God of Destruction.
> 
> In other words, Jiren is certified Universe + Level, and scales to Beerus' speed.
> 
> ...



seen it, doesn't prove nothing. combat speed is a case by case basis, it does not=travel speed in every fiction.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Possibly.  No one so far has pushed Jiren to use his full power (outside of Hit's Cage of Time, potentially), and Jiren has been confirmed to be the mortal more powerful than a God of Destruction.


That's what I mean, the guy is already that strong and he's barley tried, on top of fighting like he doesn't give a shit for only 3 episodes. It's Dragon Ball, so his progress is only going to go up, from there.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

I'm not going through this again with you guys. show me a legitimate FTL combat speed from Beerus, or Jiren. otherwise your not convincing me with your nonsenical unquantifiable db travel distance fan calcs. 

all I asked that's it. if the next response i see that isnt a ftl combat feat im not responding

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 3


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> seen it, doesn't prove nothing. combat speed is a case by case basis, *it does not=travel speed in every fiction*.


Yes, it does. Because we say it does. That's how a subjective, thoroughly arbitrary hobby like this one works.

The only time it becomes a case-by-case issue is if there is evidence that the character doesn't have to react to anything while moving. Whiss' staff travel is a good example of this. It apparently creates a straight path for him to traverse at whatever speed he chooses. Beerus, on the other hand, is actually flying under his own power when he traverses the cosmos. This means he has to be able to react to space debris, planets, stars, etcc. 

MFTL speed + MFTL perception = MFTL _"combat speed"_


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Sloth said:


> Yes, it does. Because we say it does. That's how a subjective, thoroughly arbitrary hobby like this one works.
> 
> The only time it becomes a case-by-case issue is if there is evidence that the character doesn't have to react to anything while moving. Whiss' staff travel is a good example of this. It apparently creates a straight path for him to traverse at whatever speed he chooses. Beerus, on the other hand, is actually flying under his own power when he traverses the cosmos. This means he has to be able to react to space debris, planets, stars, etcc.
> 
> MFTL speed + MFTL perception = MFTL _"combat speed"_



Wrong. Whis defined his traveling feats as teleporation. He's traveling through "hyperspace", through dimensional walls, using his Cane. That doesnt prove inherent MFTL speed and certainly not combat speed.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

if we accept such gibberish normal humans have FTL reaction speed because they can react to ki blasts from Cell.  Like, if you use Hit's time stop as a measure, their combat speed is barely supersonic.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> Wrong. Whis defined his traveling feats as teleporation. He's traveling through "hyperspace", through dimensional walls, using his Cane. That doesnt prove inherent MFTL speed and certainly not combat speed.


Ok. Fair enough.

How exactly does this discredit Beerus speed feat? Beerus followed Whiss across galaxies under his own power, he literally flew the distance in a couple of minutes. That gives him, and anybody who scales to him, MFTL speed and reactions. Or as you insist on calling it, _combat speed_.

Just as a friendly reminder, this arbitrary hobby runs on standard assumptions and debate practices. If you don't like them, you are more than welcome to leave. However, you don't get to come in here and demand that *your* standards be met. By OBD standards calcs are legit and there is no combat speed. If this russels your jimmies, there is a red x in the top right corner of your screen - it will take you away from this awful place.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Sloth said:


> Ok. Fair enough.
> 
> How exactly does this discredit Beerus speed feat? Beerus followed Whiss across galaxies under his own power, he literally flew the distance in a couple of minutes. That gives him, and anybody who scales to him, MFTL speed and reactions. Or as you insist on calling it, _combat speed_.
> 
> Just as a friendly reminder, this arbitrary hobby runs on standard assumptions and debate practices. If you don't like them, you are more than welcome to leave. However, you don't get to come in here and demand that *your* standards be met. By OBD standards calcs are legit and there is no combat speed. If this russels your jimmies, there is a red x in the top right corner of your screen - it will take you away from this awful place.



smh that doesn't prove anything. even normal humans have reacted to the shockwaves caused by him and goku during bog, We even saw Mr. Satan physically move his body faster than a shockwave travelled accross the screen.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Nov 7, 2017)

dyspo shit was that he surpassed that shit through repeated battles it was his speed boost that was a bitch to deal with considering he can accelerate it


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> smh that doesn't prove anything. even normal humans have reacted to the shockwaves caused by him and goku during bog, We even saw Mr. Satan physically move his body faster than a shockwave travelled accross the screen.



That's an outlier feat for Satan, not an anti-feat for Beerus. Mr. Satan has made it abundantly clear that he can't track any of the Z-fighters. He's also been gut-shot from a few feet out, despite already being in motion when the gun was fired.*

I don't see how you can argue that Beerus' shockwaves aren't MFTL. They are felt across the universe. I know you don't deny that Beerus and Goku are Universe+. Those shockwaves are where we got that yield from. The ones that permeate the universe in a matter of seconds.

*Getting shot might be anime only, I dunno. *shrug*


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> smh that doesn't prove anything. even normal humans have reacted to the shockwaves caused by him and goku during bog, We even saw Mr. Satan physically move his body faster than a shockwave travelled accross the screen.



Yet we see those shock-waves propagate beyond the reaches of the solar system to destroy at least one planet in another system, and Elder Kai specifically mentioned that they were going to destroy the entire Universe, _including the Sacred World of the Kai.
_
You have to potentially be the most severe, most ludicrous down-player I have ever seen, if you are trying to down-play Dragon Ball Super _this much.
_


Comic fan 101 said:


> Wrong. Whis defined his traveling feats as teleporation. He's traveling through "hyperspace", through dimensional walls, using his Cane. That doesnt prove inherent MFTL speed and certainly not combat speed.



Making a lot of assumptions there about "hyperspace".  Even considering that, Beerus is still able to travel interstellar distances at MFTL speeds himself (a pre-requisite to cross from one star system to another, much less) without needing Whis to chauffeur him.

All that said, Whis _still needs to be able to react at fast enough speeds to be able to put on the brakes and land at his location without causing unnecessary damage._ 



Sloth said:


> That's an outlier feat for Satan, not an anti-feat for Beerus. Mr Satan has made it ubundantly clear that he can't track any of the Z-fighters. He's also been gut-shot from a few feat out, despite already being in motion when the gun was fired.*



That's anime only.  In the manga, Satan was shot in the back.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> That's anime only. In the manga, Satan was shot in the back.


#DisclaimersFTW 

Too bad. His faux-Flash Step was his best speed feat.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Yet we see those shock-waves propagate beyond the reaches of the solar system to destroy at least one planet in another system, and Elder Kai specifically mentioned that they were going to destroy the entire Universe, _including the Sacred World of the Kai.
> _
> You have to potentially be the most severe, most ludicrous down-player I have ever seen, if you are trying to down-play Dragon Ball Super _this much.
> _
> ...



>Ignoring that the shockwaves built up power the farther they traveled.

>Shockwaves that only destroyed a planet. Shockwaves that didn't follow any type of logic. 

Kai also said  that the shockwaves grew stronger gradually over time meaning they were weak to begin with. Your leaving out the context of how they endangered the universe. If you destroy a forest by chopping it down one tree at a time your not a forest buster. so try again

obviously they're universal NOW because of zenkai boosts, training etc

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Imagine (Nov 7, 2017)

Did Jiren show any mind control feats above what's been shown in part 2 DB?


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> all I asked that's it. if the next response i see that isnt a ftl combat feat im not responding




The one stated out-right, at the very least, to be "faster than light".  Via scaling, a myriad of characters are not only FTL, but MFTL.  Beginning of series Dragon Ball Z (Saiyan Saga) are at least relativistic, given Piccolo's Ki blast reached and destroyed the Moon in a matter of seconds.  And character have only gotten more powerful, and much faster from there, along with the speed of their attacks.



Comic fan 101 said:


> Kai also said that the shockwaves grew stronger gradually over time meaning they were weak to begin with. Your leaving out the context of how they endangered the universe.



I was responding to your fallacious assertion about their speed.

They were still Universal back then, given Old Kai stated that a third and final clash between Goku and Beerus would destroy the Universe.



Imagine said:


> Did Jiren show any mind control feats above what's been shown in part 2 DB?



If you're referring to Vegeta being able to resist Babidi's ability to control him, it is possible that power-scaling would put Jiren above that level of mind-control easy.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> The one stated out-right, at the very least, to be "faster than light".  Via scaling, a myriad of characters are not only FTL, but MFTL.  Beginning of series Dragon Ball Z (Saiyan Saga) are at least relativistic, given Piccolo's Ki blast reached and destroyed the Moon in a matter of seconds.  And character have only gotten more powerful, and much faster from there, along with the speed of their attacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Except  Piccolo's beam doesn't have a determined timeframe. Plus  that's the beam. Not Piccolo himself. And DB characters often cannot dodge or even react to beam attacks.

the Kaioken multiplier would need to be exponential for Goku to get anywhere near lightspeed. So he isn't FTL even if you're stupid enough to accept a relativistic value for Piccolo's attack.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Imagine (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> If you're referring to Vegeta being able to resist Babidi's ability to control him, it is possible that power-scaling would put Jiren above that level of mind-control easy.


Powerscaling wouldn't put him above that level but at that level, because it's the best mind resistance feat in the series unless Jiren or some other Super character has shown better.


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## Affectugender (Nov 7, 2017)

Should Jiren personality factor here? Since he thinks he is the top dog and MM is probably no threat to him. He will do nothing then MM mindrapes him?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blαck (Nov 7, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> If you're referring to Vegeta being able to resist Babidi's ability to control him, it is possible that power-scaling would put Jiren above that level of mind-control easy.



Can we even scale mind fuck resistance feats? I'd like to wait for characters to show it themselves before letting them have it. Unless the feat had to due with begets willpower or something


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

The earliest quantifiable speed feats start early in part 1 of Dragon Ball, with characters as low-tier as Master Roshi proving capable of catching bullets from machine guns with ease, making him supernonic+(above mach 1/speed of sound), likely pushing Mach 5 based on the distance of his feat. 

There were several unknown speed boosts between then and the start of Dragon Ball Z(or DB part 2), with the last major quantifiable measurement of speed for much of the series being Goku's Kai-o-ken. This specifically multiplies their stats by a given factor. The fact that Saiyan Saga Vegeta could keep up with x3 Goku means that he was at least in the mid double digits of mach speeds, likely several dozen times the speed of sound.

After that, DBZ has Nothing but a bunch of non-quantifiable power boosts that increase an Unknown amount of speed, nothing we can use to Define or Prove how fast they are.

Things like "Ki-blasts traveling too the Moon" or "Goku flying 'across' Namek, or even Gotenks "flying around the world multiple times" does not tell us a certain speed because we dont have a Timeframe to pair with the distance they traveled. 

Speed = Distnace / Time. 

If we dont know how long a character took to travel or move to a spot, then we cannot figure out their speed. Guessing is pointless. By Buu Saga they could be Mach 1000+, they may Mach 10,000+, that would certainlly allow Gotens to travel around the world multiple times in a few minutes or less. However even if it were done in seconds, it would not prove that he's lightspeed, which we dont know the timeframe anyhow.

So Conclusion: Dragon Ball characters are likely thousands of times faster than the speed of sound, but there is No feat that proves they are light speed, and there's no feat that would Imply lightspeed, everything they've done could be accomplished with Less than lightspeed.

How Fast Are they? Really fast, to an Unknown degree.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Imagine (Nov 7, 2017)

If the Badidi feat is still the best then Jiren's getting his mind shut down. It's a mid tier feat at best compared to what MM is capable of.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 7, 2017)

but I proved my point. you both have yet to show a FTL combat speed for Beerus, or Jiren and not some nonsencial travel speed feat. convince someone else, not me.  the last i have to say

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Imagine (Nov 7, 2017)

_Shut up._

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> but I proved my point. you both have yet to show a FTL combat speed for Beerus, or Jiren and not some nonsencial travel speed feat. convince someone else, not me.  the last i have to say



Actually, it will never be "the last you have to say", because you're too conceited to accept anything other than your own perspective.  

After all, you didn't prove any point; you just rejected what was accepted in favor of your own reality.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Nov 7, 2017)

Sloth said:


> That's an outlier feat for Satan, not an *anti-feat* for Beerus.



 I still consider this among the top most retarded pieces of jargon in all of vs debate communities. It's a... pet peeve of mine.


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## Imagine (Nov 7, 2017)

Tf is an anti feat


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> -snip-


We have a minimum time-frame for Beerus' intergalactic, MFTL feat. It's something like 2min, based on statements from the episode. There are no two galaxies that you can cross in 2 mins without being MFTL.

If you have an issue with our methods or how we get our variables, you are free to debate elsewhere. No one owes you anything else. Everyone has met OBD standards when giving you the evidence you request, and you spit it back saying it doesn't meet _*your *_standards_*. 
*_
I know not everyone has shown my decorum, but people have been patient. Enough is enough.


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I still consider this among the top most retarded *pieces of jargon* in all of vs debate communities. It's a... pet peeve of mine.


So.. Do you just dislike the word or is it more that it doesn't accurately describe what it's refrencing? Or do you hate the idea of anti-feats? I'm confused.


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## Nep Heart (Nov 7, 2017)

Sloth said:


> So.. Do you just dislike the word or is it more that it doesn't accurately describe what it's refrencing? Or do you hate the idea of anti-feats? I'm confused.



 Probably because of how it's a misused substitute for low-end outliers... except it's using low-end outliers to discredit all the better feats a character has. In this case, dismissing MFTL+ feats and scaling because of no sonic booms as Camic ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) 404 tried doing in this thread.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 7, 2017)

Anyway, back on topic.

If Big J can't blitz than he gets haxd to death. No diff.

Babidi is a scrub-tier telepath whose best feat is global TP. Even if we scale that shit up, it's not getting anywhere near what would be needed to shield someone from the likes of MM.  

If he does Blitz, MM goes splat. No diff.


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## twirdman (Nov 7, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> The earliest quantifiable speed feats start early in part 1 of Dragon Ball, with characters as low-tier as Master Roshi proving capable of catching bullets from machine guns with ease, making him supernonic+(above mach 1/speed of sound), likely pushing Mach 5 based on the distance of his feat.
> 
> So Conclusion: Dragon Ball characters are likely thousands of times faster than the speed of sound, but there is No feat that proves they are light speed, and there's no feat that would Imply lightspeed, everything they've done could be accomplished with Less than lightspeed.
> 
> How Fast Are they? Really fast, to an Unknown degree.



Didn't you just last page say they weren't even super sonic?  Now you are retracting that because of how obviously idiotic it was and are admitting that they have been supersonic since early DB?  God why can't you just go away.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Mabel Gleeful (Nov 7, 2017)

I petition @KaiserWombat @Nighty the Mighty and @MusubiKazesaru to ban @Comic fan 101

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## twirdman (Nov 7, 2017)

Oh and here's your FTL showing for Beerus


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Nov 8, 2017)

Martian Manhunter wins easily

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Adamant soul (Nov 8, 2017)

Depends on the version, voted Jiren because he would beat more versions than he would lose to though he's not resisting mindfuck from any of them.


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## Musclehead (Nov 8, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> but I proved my point. you both have yet to show a FTL combat speed for Beerus, or Jiren and not some nonsencial travel speed feat. convince someone else, not me.  the last i have to say





TheManWhoLaughs said:


> Martian Manhunter wins easily



Shut the fuck up


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## shunsui1 (Nov 8, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Actually, it will never be "the last you have to say", because you're too conceited to accept anything other than your own perspective.
> 
> *After all, you didn't prove any point; you just rejected what was accepted in favor of your own reality.*



Santen kesshun. I reject!!! Also Zenkai boosts...weren't they stated to not have an effect anymore?


On topic. OP should really clarify which MMH. Because JLU MMH dies and that's the only one I care about.


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## Adamant soul (Nov 8, 2017)

shunsui1 said:


> *Also Zenkai boosts...weren't they stated to not have an effect anymore?*





On Goku and Vegeta yes.


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## SSMG (Nov 8, 2017)

Adamant soul said:


> On Goku and Vegeta yes.


Also Super Buutenks stated that Gohan didn't get one when Dende healed him up.


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## Deleted member 244537 (Nov 8, 2017)

If the elder supreme kai is a credible source that people are going by, he also said that if Goku and Beerus were to clash a few more times, everything will be completely destroyed including Goku and Beerus.


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## SSMG (Nov 8, 2017)

Suisuna20 said:


> If the elder supreme kai is a credible source that people are going by, he also said that if Goku and Beerus were to clash a few more times, everything will be completely destroyed including Goku and Beerus.



We accept that the are universal level at that time so that doesn't conflict anything. The bit about both them being wiped out is fine as the shockwaves were a biproduct of the sum of their ki. Which is obviously greater than either of the halves. 

He is a God capable of sensing ki. If he was wrong, another wiser God such as elder kai would have shut him down.


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## Gordo solos (Nov 8, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> >Jiren
> 
> >quadrillion
> 
> ...


You need help Tonathan


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> You need help Tonathan


Nah that isn't Tonathan. It's DoomTM.

@Catalyst75 and @Ampchu can attest to who that moron was.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Unless DoomTM is a dupe of Tonathan.

So that means Comic fan 101 is a dupe of DoomTM who's a dupe of Tonathan.

A dupe of a dupe of a troll.

Dupeception

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gordo solos (Nov 8, 2017)

All the dupes on this site are Tonathan's


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Tonathan truly has become Infinite Zamasu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (Nov 8, 2017)

Every dragon ball super thread comes down to this these days.

I feel like ComicbookFan is purposely and carefully selecting things he knows will cause a long overdone argument just to see how long it takes before the threads shut down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Imagine (Nov 8, 2017)

Idk why everyone doesn't just ignore him.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Idk why you haven't been flushed down the toilet yet.


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## Deleted member 244537 (Nov 8, 2017)

SSMG said:


> *We accept that the are universal level at that time so that doesn't conflict anything*. The bit about both them being wiped out is fine as the shockwaves were a biproduct of the sum of their ki. Which is obviously greater than either of the halves.
> 
> He is a God capable of sensing ki. If he was wrong, another wiser God such as elder kai would have shut him down.



I would say it conflicts with this idea of both of them having universal level durability. I am not contesting them being capable of destroying the universe…_over time_ with some weird in-universe law that apparently enables shockwaves to get stronger the further they are away from the point of impact. But, how can they have universe level durability if at the point of impact, the shockwaves that were produced, the few times they did clash, did not at the very least destroy the earth?


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## Zef (Nov 8, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> >Jiren
> 
> >quadrillion
> 
> Jiren doesn't even have any FTL reactions as of yet, Dypso surpassing "light" was clear hyperbole.


Yo, this dude is hilarious.


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## SSMG (Nov 8, 2017)

Suisuna20 said:


> I would say it conflicts with this idea of both of them having universal level durability. I am not contesting them being capable of destroying the universe…_over time_ with some weird in-universe law that apparently enables shockwaves to get stronger the further they are away from the point of impact. But, how can they have universe level durability if at the point of impact, the shockwaves that were produced, the few times they did clash, did not at the very least destroy the earth?



I believe the dura feat for universal level is when Goku catches a ki sphere that was stated to be universal level. He caught it and compressed it into nothing. So this means the shockwaves simply have a higher dc yield than the sphere that gave him the universal dura.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Pre-Crisis Martian Manhunter is also universal+ in overall stats and with infinite speed.

J'onn is in the same rung as Superman that dived into Aethyr's skull and destroyed his incorporeal form to escape the Phantom Zone which is stated to be infinite in size on two different occasions.

Superman has also blitzed Mxy and moved beyond infinity that almost destroyed several universes as he travelled past them to reach Heaven.

And J'onn scales to all of that. So yeah, if it's Pre-Crisis J'onn, it's a stomp in his favor.


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## Claudio Swiss (Nov 8, 2017)

SSMG said:


> I believe the dura feat for universal level is when Goku catches a ki sphere that was stated to be universal level. He caught it and compressed it into nothing. So this means the shockwaves simply have a higher dc yield than the sphere that gave him the universal dura.


There's also goku in base form tanking the sphere ball that was stronger than the one that was going to destroy the universe
Yo @Crimson Dragoon whenever you have the time you think you can compile the universal feats in BOG saga aka gt style like baby vegeta>ssj vegito?


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## Claudio Swiss (Nov 8, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Nah it's pretty fair for speed. Kal-L blitzing Mxy helps justify Supes breaking past infinity going at full speed.


Meh I kinda unsure about it but it's not like pre crisis john doesn't have an advantage in speed anyways


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## Blanco (Nov 8, 2017)

Pre crisis Martian manhunter is canon yes? Lets use him.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Pre-Crisis hasn't been canon since 1986.

The issue is that Post-Crisis J'onn only wins through hax and mindfuckery.

New 52 J'onn probably gets stomped in general.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SSMG (Nov 8, 2017)

^And you know Jiren would just fold his arms and try to tank it. That smug prick.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

SSMG said:


> ^And you know Jiren would just fold his arms and try to tank it. That smug prick.


I'd hope not. A mindfuck would be pretty bad.

Although if it's Pre-Crisis J'onn, he's gonna get his arms blown off by the force of J'onn's punches.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 8, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Nah that isn't Tonathan. It's DoomTM.
> 
> @Catalyst75 and @Ampchu can attest to who that moron was.



Little rodent was harassing my Conversation board, always making a new account every time I got the last one banned.  

---------------------------------------------------------------

Out of curiosity, given J'onn's telepathy affects the mind, how would that relate to the fact that one part of Ki's nature is "Shoki" - Mind?  Could affecting Jiren's mind cripple his Ki control and output, or some other unknown interaction?


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Nov 8, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I'd hope not. A mindfuck would be pretty bad.
> *
> Although if it's Pre-Crisis J'onn, he's gonna get his arms blown off by the force of J'onn's punches*.



what are his physical feats again? Jiren can casually stop universal level punches with his finger so I just need some clarification


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 8, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> what are his physical feats again? Jiren can casually stop universal level punches with his finger so I just need some clarification


J'onn is in the same ballpark as Superman who can shatter the incorporeal form of Aethyr who's mind maintains an infinite sized reality. So J'onn is on a much higher scale of universal than Jiren is.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Lucy75 (Nov 8, 2017)

Do we really gotta ban comic fan 101? The dude is hilarious. He always gives me a great laugh in any thread he gets involved in.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Huey Freeman (Nov 9, 2017)

Which MMH is this, and what is his mindset ?


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 9, 2017)

Huey Freeman said:


> Which MMH is this, and what is his mindset ?


Wasn't specified in the OP.


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## Cain1234 (Nov 10, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> what are his physical feats again? Jiren can casually stop universal level punches with his finger so I just need some clarification


Finger? A glare is all he needs or is that too much.


Catalyst75 said:


> Little rodent was harassing my Conversation board, always making a new account every time I got the last one banned.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Out of curiosity, given J'onn's telepathy affects the mind, how would that relate to the fact that one part of Ki's nature is "Shoki" - Mind?  Could affecting Jiren's mind cripple his Ki control and output, or some other unknown interaction?




Not saying is isn't a possibility. But giving Mind control the ability to effect Ki output because Ki contains Shoji is just asking for a opening for a can of worms as that would mean the reverse is possible and you can get resistance of mind from greater Ki.


Thought I think this is how Telepathy and Telekinesis works in DB. We just don't have confirmation on the mechanism for that.


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Superman who *can shatter the incorporeal form of Aethyr* who's mind maintains an infinite sized reality.


Well, his "casing". And not even the whole thing, just a hole large enough to escape. It's not like Supes completely destroyed him or anything, The last panel as Supes leaves even implies that Ayther is still alive. 

Might not be relevant to this match, but I feel like this feat has been over-hyped in general.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> what are his physical feats again? Jiren can casually stop universal level punches with his finger so I just need some clarification



The feat in BOG or episode 12 of Super was not UNIVERSAL, stop scaling him based of that feat. Jiren is Universal, but not from that feat

, that's totally Destuction Ki doing all that. A Shockwave that propagates outwards from an explosion rather than dissipates? When planets are hit by it, they don't explode violently or are swept along with it, but crumble to dust in place?

Furthermore, has anyone ever actually noted that The universe destruction is increasing in power the further it gets from Goku and Beerus? So, if they punch each other, Goku is using 100% of his strength and it's not affecting the Earth in the slightest. Yet the further it gets away, it's increasing in power by many orders of magnitude. Going from (arguably) planet-busting to Universe busting. But while the intensity of the shock wave is increasing millions to billions to trillions of times over (to go from planet threatening to "supposedly" universe threatening), Goku's actual strength is still at 100%. 

Therefore, Goku can't unleash universe busting power based off this feat because the Shockwave GROWS to be universe threatening long after the initial output. This is simple shit

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> *The feat in BOG or episode 12 of Super was not UNIVERSAL*, stop scaling him based of that feat. Jiren is Universal, but not from that feat


It is here.

This is what I was talking about. If you don't like our standards, then go away. You can't come in here telling people, who are forming their arguments around the current OBD consensus, that they are wrong. That's not how it works. Standard practices and consistency are all that matters. We got the Universe+ from that feat using the same standards we always do. It's a legitimate universe level feat here.



Comic fan 101 said:


> -snip-t


You have a problem with the currently held consensus on a feat? Post a meta-thread. Stop derailing otherwise productive matches.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

Sloth said:


> It is here.
> 
> This is what I was talking about. If you don't like our standards, then go away. You can't come in here telling people, who are forming their arguments around the current OBD consensus, that they are wrong. That's not how it works. Standard practices and consistency are all that matters. We got the Universe+ from that feat using the same standards we always do. It's a legitimate universe level feat here.
> 
> ...



so it can't be debunked even when i just debunked it because it's accepted by you guys lmao?

you know that's what we would call "argument ad populum"  LOL

but glad you don't have a rebuttal besides another fallacy

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> The feat in BOG or episode 12 of Super was not UNIVERSAL, stop scaling him based of that feat. Jiren is Universal, but not from that feat
> 
> , that's totally Destuction Ki doing all that. A Shockwave that propagates outwards from an explosion rather than dissipates? When planets are hit by it, they don't explode violently or are swept along with it, but crumble to dust in place?
> 
> ...



This is what Hakai looks like:


This is what a clash between Goku and Beerus, _*the latter whom was holding back substantially, *_looks like:




The shock-waves only stopped, save for the later Ki clash, because Goku was able to match Beerus' punches:


That was the nature of the shock-wave: it was the result of both their blows clashing unevenly with each other, meaning it was both their Ki that was propagating through the shock-waves _the further it got from them.  _In other words, Goku clashing with a severely holding-back Beerus was still risking Universe destruction.

Furthermore, we have two examples of Ki clashes between Beerus and Goku generating high-density energy spheres that threatened Universe-level destruction_, and the only way to stop both was to make them disappear entirely._  Beerus did that the first time; _Goku did it the second time.  
_
We wouldn't be saying Goku is Universe level _for the past two years_ if there was not good reason to conclude that.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

Sloth said:


> Well, his "casing". And not even the whole thing, just a hole large enough to escape. It's not like Supes completely destroyed him or anything, The last panel as Supes leaves even implies that Ayther is still alive.
> 
> Might not be relevant to this match, but I feel like this feat has been over-hyped in general.


That's not the final issue of Phantom Zone. Read DC Comics Presents #93 I think it was. If you're reading it on there, you'll find that it's the very last one. Aethyr lost his incorporeal form from the two fighting.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> so it can't be debunked even when i just debunked it because it's accepted by you guys lmao?
> 
> you know that's what we would call "argument ad populum"  LOL
> 
> but glad you don't have a rebuttal besides another fallacy


*A.* It's not that it can't be debunked. It shouldn't be debunked here, in this thread.

This is even something I addressed in that post. _Glad to see_ your selective reading skills aren't dulling.

*B.* I'm not saying that the feat is objectively universal because we say so. I'm saying it's _*subjectively *_universal because we say so. Which is literally all that matters.

This is what you aren't understanding. You can't have any "right" answers in this hobby. The only correct answer to any question posed in this subforum is "who cares, and why?". As any normie is quick to point out, "it's just fiction" and "whoever the writers say, that's who wins".

The best you can do is create an outline of debate; basic ground rules for how you'll quantify the unqualifiable. Using those rules you build your scale and compare characters accordingly. Unfortunately, fiction isn't tailored to our hobby, so you'll never create a perfect outline. Some things are just gonna have to be dealt with arbitrarily.

Things like how we handle assumed time-frames (especially in non-video media), or powerscaling, or the world not reacting properly to superhuman physics (ie no sonic boom); there is no right way to do any of these. You just have to have to keep it consistent.

You aren't forming you arguments with our outline in mind. You aren't taking into account how *we* reconcile the conflicts between logic and fiction. Which is the _only_ way you can debunk _any _of the claims pertaining to our quantification of said fiction.

We aren't exempt from generally fallacious arguments. But you can't call our fictional data flawed because it doesn't follow basic logic. You need to consider how the OBD _chooses_ to reconcile that particular type of conflict.

It's all a game and there are House Rules in play. Learn to play by them or consider playing elsewhere.

.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> This is what Hakai looks like:
> 
> 
> This is what a clash between Goku and Beerus, _*the latter whom was holding back substantially, *_looks like:
> ...



None of this actually addresses anything I said.
Goku A: CANNOT make an attack that unleashes universe threatening effects alone, and B: the universe threatening event was FAR GREATER than the energies Goku himself unleashed. The energy released in the initial clash was an uncontrolled energy that didn't even threaten the planet below. Yet if Old Kai and the narrator are to be taken at their words, far away the energy had grown in intensity by many orders of magnitude. Orders of Magnitude that Goku himself was incapable of unleashing since he was going all out against Beerus already.
The universe busting took place far away from where Goku was and with energies far beyond what he himself could produce.

As for the Energy clashes; Beerus nullified one. Explicit, makes sense, he has that power.
The other one though? Goku didn't "nullify" shit. He said OUTRIGHT that doing so was IMPOSSIBLE. So he didn't do it the same way Beerus did.
What actually happened? Their energies combined into a thing which Goku punched and it ... dissipated harmlessly.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

Sloth said:


> Well, his "casing". And not even the whole thing, just a hole large enough to escape. It's not like Supes completely destroyed him or anything, The last panel as Supes leaves even implies that Ayther is still alive.
> 
> Might not be relevant to this match, but I feel like this feat has been over-hyped in general.



So this is not much different than super Buu and Gotenks opening a hole in the RoSaT. Both are infinite in size and the feats in question tore a hole in them.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

SSMG said:


> So this is not much different than super Buu and Gotenks opening a hole in the RoSaT. Both are infinite in size and the feats in question tore a hole in them.


Not really no. You can see Superman physically wounded Aethyr and destroyed his physical form since the last we see of Aethyr is his consciousness in DC Comics Presents #93.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

When they punch each other and cause universe ending shockwaves, there is a distinctive sound and line across the screen when it happens. While the narrator is talking, those lines and sounds are still happening occasionally, but not with every strike. 
Likewise, we see the wavy shockwave effect when Beerus tries to nullify Goku's Super Saiyan form but Goku powers through it. Another indication that the effect is coming from Beerus. 

And finally, the narrator is full of shit. At the end of Episode 113 he says that Kale has gone berserk just like before, yet as we see (even as early as the preview to the next episode), she very clearly hasn't. 
So yeah. Dramatic tension. It's a thing narrators do.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Not really no. You can see Superman physically wounded Aethyr and destroyed his physical form since the last we see of Aethyr is his consciousness in DC Comics Presents #93.


Okay, Yeah I was just overlooking that panel. It seems sloth got mixed up with the line about Superman's body is still intact in that last panel. I think he thought that meant Aethyr's body is still in tact. It's a easy mistake to make.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Okay, Yeah I was just overlooking that panel. It seems sloth got mixed up with the line about Superman's body is still intact in that last panel. I think he thought that meant Aethyr's body is still in tact. It's a easy mistake to make.


It's fine. Aethyr was alive afterward but significantly weakened as a result of their fight. You should give Phantom Zone a read, it's a damn good miniseries.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> Goku A: CANNOT make an attack that unleashes universe threatening effects alone, and B: the universe threatening event was FAR GREATER than the energies Goku himself unleashed. The energy released in the initial clash was an uncontrolled energy that didn't even threaten the planet below. Yet if Old Kai and the narrator are to be taken at their words, far away the energy had grown in intensity by many orders of magnitude. Orders of Magnitude that Goku himself was incapable of unleashing since he was going all out against Beerus already.
> The universe busting took place far away from where Goku was and with energies far beyond what he himself could produce.
> 
> As for the Energy clashes; Beerus nullified one. Explicit, makes sense, he has that power.
> ...



Do you have any idea of how much Beerus would have to be holding back relative to his full power for him to get an "even fight" out of Goku?  Beerus was holding back _that much_, yet his clashes with Goku were still threatening to destroy the Universe, which is why SSJ God Goku scales to Universe level from those clashes.  

And yes, Goku _did _nullify the high-density energy sphere at the end of the fight.  Old Kai was very specific in his wording: _the only way to deal with energy of that amount was to make it disappear_.  Which is what Goku did with his final punch: he nullified it, causing to disperse and cause no damage.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

I think I'm changing my mind to lean towards Jiren. The results of the match are already in question and Jiren has barely started.

You know Jiren is significantly above what he's already demonstrated.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> I think I'm changing my mind to lean towards Jiren. The results of the match are already in question and Jiren has barely started.
> 
> You know Jiren is significantly above what he's demonstrated.


That isn't very good reasoning.

Much of Pre-Crisis hasn't been read or cataloged yet so we don't know the extent of J'onn's power either.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> That isn't very good reasoning.
> 
> Much of Pre-Crisis hasn't been read or cataloged yet so we don't know the extent of J'onn's power either.


It's logic.

We know Jiren has not exerted his max. He's virtually fought with one hand tied behind his back and his eyes closed in his 1st real showing. That's different than assuming/hoping someone will display new powers, later.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> It's logic.
> 
> We know Jiren has not exerted his max. He's virtually fought with one hand tied behind his back and his eyes closed in his 1st real showing. That's different than assuming/hoping someone will display new powers, later.


We go by what's been shown and thus far, Jiren is low GoD tier. He's stronger than Belmod for sure.

Pre-Crisis J'onn on the other hand is in the same tier as Superman the same Superman that managed to severely wound an incorporeal entity who's mind maintains an infinite sized reality.

As I've said numerous times already, Pre-Crisis J'onn stomps while Post-Crisis and New 52 get stomped.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> We go by what's been shown and thus far, Jiren is low GoD tier. He's stronger than Belmod for sure.



That's very bad. A fight that ignores all context outside of feats is pretty elementary. Threads here are basically feat wars.

11's God of Destruction has no defined limit either. Jiren being stronger than him is virtually irrelevant.



Blakk Jakk said:


> Pre-Crisis J'onn on the other hand is in the same tier as Superman the same Superman that managed to severely wound an incorporeal entity who's mind maintains an infinite sized reality.



I fail to see how that can be gauged in a meaningful way. That's like arguing that the Grand Priest warped an infinite reality on a whim so he can beat Jiren.



Blakk Jakk said:


> As I've said numerous times already, Pre-Crisis J'onn stomps while Post-Crisis and New 52 get stomped.


That's your opinion and that's fine.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> That's very bad.


What would you rather have us do? Just make up feats for Jiren? Or just assume he can punch out anyone because he doesn't have an upper limit?

Alright than I imagine you won't mind if I make a Jiren vs Kagutsuchi thread in the near future


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> That's very bad. A fight that ignores all context outside of feats is pretty elementary. Threads here are basically feat wars.
> 
> 11's God of Destruction has no defined limit either. Jiren being stronger than him is virtually irrelevant


No, because that prevents wank and NLF's.

Read this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

Kagutsuchi vs Jiren is coming soon~


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

Blazedrew look up no limit fallacies. It's a common mistake people use when debating fiction.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Pre-Crisis J'onn on the other hand is in the same tier as Superman the same Superman that managed to severely wound an incorporeal entity who's mind maintains an infinite sized reality.



If I may ask, do we generally equate damaging the physical embodiment of entire worlds or dimension as equivalent to the entire thing, regardless of how that depiction varies from story to story?


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> No, because that prevents wank and NLF's.
> 
> Read this.



You are applying these definitions without reason and without proper context. Thus validating the opposite extreme of the very thing you are trying to prevent.

There's a difference between claiming something has no limits and acknowledging clear evidence that the character in question has barely tried. You are so adverse to "wank", that you do the opposite and place arbitrary limitations that spit in the face of what you know to be real.

Reactions: Like 2 | Informative 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> If I may ask, do we generally equate damaging the physical embodiment of entire worlds or dimension as equivalent to the entire thing, regardless of how that depiction varies from story to story?


Depends on the depiction. Aethyr's mind creates reality and his body is incorporeal. He controls the entire universe and Superman shattered his body and left behind only his consciousness. So it's a pretty solid universal+ feat to me.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Blazedrew look up no limit fallacies. It's a common mistake people use when debating fiction.


I'm not claiming Jiren has no limits. What I am saying is, it's reasonable to assume that; if it's debatable that Character A can beat Character B when he's bound and gagged; when he's not, Character A is going to have issues.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> You are applying these definitions without reason and without proper context. Thus validating the opposite extreme of the very thing you are trying to prevent.
> 
> There's a difference between claiming something has no limits and acknowledging clear evidence that the character in question has barely tried. You are so adverse to "wank", that you do the opposite and place arbitrary limitations that spit in the face of what you know to be real.


Yeah, no. Limiting a character to only what he has shown on screen is anything but arbitrary especially when you have things like powerscalling working toghether with that.. It's the best way to prevent shitstorms and headcannon and shit like that. We've doing doing this shit forever. If you don't like the way we're doing things you're welcome do go to another forum or  make a thread challenging this.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> You are applying these definitions without reason and without proper context. Thus validating the opposite extreme of the very thing you are trying to prevent.
> 
> There's a difference between claiming something has no limits and acknowledging clear evidence that the character in question has barely tried. You are so adverse to "wank", that you do the opposite and place arbitrary limitations that spit in the face of what you know to be real.



No, that's how we prevent clowns like Tonathan100 and Comic fan 101 from claiming things like Omniversal Superman and Omniversal Mxyzptlk, or OMGMAN claiming "Star-level" Guardians and "Kugelblitz temperature fire" Natsu.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Yeah, no. Limiting a character to only what he has shown on screen is anything but arbitrary.


When you attempt to mount a Factual argument  based on limitations that don't actually exist, yes it is.


Catalyst75 said:


> No, that's how we prevent clowns like Tonathan100 and Comic fan 101 from claiming things like Omniversal Superman and Omniversal Mxyzptlk, or OMGMAN claiming "Star-level" Guardians and "Kugelblitz temperature fire" Natsu.


I understand the point of what you are doing but you don't realize that you've moved from one extreme to another. Where is the middle ground?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> When you attempt to mount a Factual argument  based on limitations that don't actually exist, yes it is.


Like i said, make a thread trying to challenge a core concept of this thing of ours or go to another forums where you can bullshit about someone's abilities all you want.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> I understand the point of what you are doing but you don't realize that you've moved from one extreme to another. Where is the middle ground?


It's not an extreme. If Jiren is higher than where he's at now, we'll know but for right now, he is not on PC J'onn's level. More than that, we saw Hit make Jiren bleed and I'm pretty sure Hit wouldn't do any better against J'onn.

Ignoring the speed advantage goes squarely to J'onn to begin with.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> It's not an extreme.


It is extreme. Very extreme. If I destroy a planet with a finger jab, saying my max is planet level, despite there being nothing special about my finger is pretty damn extreme.

There has to be some sort of information threshold before a character can be used in a thread.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> It is extreme. very extreme. If I destroy a planet with a finger jab, saying my max is planet level is pretty damn extreme.


Planet level+ would be his cap.

It's quite a difference between jumping from planet to star level.

However, if you're referring to Beerus, he's universal+. That feat was just a casual feat for him so your comparison doesn't work because we know his upper limits.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> When you attempt to mount a Factual argument  based on limitations that don't actually exist, yes it is.
> 
> I understand the point of what you are doing but you don't realize that you've moved from one extreme to another. Where is the middle ground?



If you're talking about the "Golden Mean", then here is an important thing to know: that's nothing more than a fallacy which fantasizes that the "middle ground" is some kind of harmonious, perfect solution, when it really isn't. 



Blakk Jakk said:


> Depends on the depiction. Aethyr's mind creates reality and his body is incorporeal. He controls the entire universe and Superman shattered his body and left behind only his consciousness. So it's a pretty solid universal+ feat to me.



That is what I mean.  I wouldn't go claiming Gaea from "Heroes of Olympus" is Planet-level, or that Leo is planet-level for essentially burning her down, because she is the embodiment of the planet.

I think there is a case-by-case difference between the "embodiment" of an entity _within _the dimension it embodies, and the dimension itself.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> It is extreme. Very extreme. If I destroy a planet with a finger jab, saying my max is planet level, despite their being nothing special about my finger is pretty damn extreme.
> 
> There has to be some sort of information threshold before a character can be used in a thread


Then quantify how much stronger Jiren is or quantify how much stronger you would be using your example.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> That is what I mean. I wouldn't go claiming Gaea from "Heroes of Olympus" is Planet-level, or that Leo is planet-level for essentially burning her down, because she is the embodiment of the planet.
> 
> I think there is a case-by-case difference between the "embodiment" of an entity _within _the dimension it embodies, and the dimension itself.


It's repeated in the comic over and over that he maintains the universe and the universe is an extension of him. It's no different from Saint Seiya where the gods maintain their own universes with their energy. If you can maintain a universe than you're universal unless there's some other mechanism involved.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Planet level+ would be his cap.


Oh yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. I don't know where I'd place the character but having him fight other planet level characters is just very funny to imagine. He's just running around, finger jabbing people.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> I don't know where I'd place the characte


And that's the problem. That's why this system works.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> Oh yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. I don't know where I'd place the character but having him fight other planet level characters is just very funny to imagine. He's just running around, finger jabbing people.


I don't think you get that jumping from planet to star level is a pretty exponential gap. Unless the character shows more feats that are above planet level, you can't assume he would be star level or higher.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> If you're talking about the "Golden Mean".


No I'm not. But at the same time, I find it unreasonable to assume the Earth is flat because that's how it looks to my eyes.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> No I'm not. But at the same time, I find it unreasonable to assume the Earth is flat because that's how it looks to my eyes.



What are you trying to imply?


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Do you have any idea of how much Beerus would have to be holding back relative to his full power for him to get an "even fight" out of Goku?  Beerus was holding back _that much_, yet his clashes with Goku were still threatening to destroy the Universe, which is why SSJ God Goku scales to Universe level from those clashes.
> 
> And yes, Goku _did _nullify the high-density energy sphere at the end of the fight.  Old Kai was very specific in his wording: _the only way to deal with energy of that amount was to make it disappear_.  Which is what Goku did with his final punch: he nullified it, causing to disperse and cause no damage.



1. No. It's not. it's FURTHER evidence that Beerus was primarily responsible. Because Beerus ALWAYS threatens the universe when he gets in a fight and Goku NEVER does.

2. So Goku can disperse universe-busting energy with his punches now huh? Gee, that's really weird. I wonder why that's never been a thing since... You'd think he'd be saving himself a shitload of energy by just punching every energy attack he ever encounters instead of countering it with his own... 

So no. That's nonsense. Their energy combined into a thing and upon disruption it dissipated harmlessly rather than exploding. It doesn't make sense, but then neither does shockwaves that get stronger as they move further away from their source. It sure as shit makes more sense than Goku using any kind of one-off power to nullify it Beerus style...


Beerus's unique Ki threatens the universe when he fights. EVERY time he fights. While Goku's NEVER does.

but if Goku punches Beerus' fist with 100% of his strength and the resulting shockwave gains millions of times more powerful as it moves away from Goku, it doesn't magically make Goku millions of times more powerful..

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> 1. No. It's not. it's FURTHER evidence that Beerus was primarily responsible. Because Beerus ALWAYS threatens the universe when he gets in a fight and Goku NEVER does.



It is something that is called _*control *_i.e. why fighters in Dragon Ball from Z onward don't destroy the planets they are fighting on, when the fight each other.  Same goes for having enough power to threaten to destroy the Universe - they have the power, _but they also have the control to make sure that does not happen.
_
Goku's clashes with Beerus were threatening the Universe _because Goku had yet to perfect matching Beerus' strikes exactly.  _But when Goku did, there was no longer a threat of the Universe crumbling from their physical blows.  When they clashed Ki attacks later, it was made clear that _both their colliding power _was going to lead to the Universe collapsing.

Whis said it himself: he did not anticipate Super Saiyan God having so much power _that it clashing with Beerus would bring an end to the Universe._

In other words, the energy that was going to destroy the Universe?  _One half that was all Goku._


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## twirdman (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> 1. No. It's not. it's FURTHER evidence that Beerus was primarily responsible. Because Beerus ALWAYS threatens the universe when he gets in a fight and Goku NEVER does.



So wait you are claiming that Beerus contributed nearly all the energy.  How would that work.  They fought.  There were beam struggles.  If Goku wasn't contributing a significant fraction of the power of the attacks he would be destroyed instantly.  What you are suggesting is someone running into a moving train with a bike and stopping the train.  It is absurd.  God you are dumb.  Why can't you just leave.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> It is something that is called _*control *_i.e. why fighters in Dragon Ball from Z onward don't destroy the planets they are fighting on, when the fight each other.  Same goes for having enough power to threaten to destroy the Universe - they have the power, _but they also have the control to make sure that does not happen.
> _
> Goku's clashes with Beerus were threatening the Universe _because Goku had yet to perfect matching Beerus' strikes exactly.  _But when Goku did, there was no longer a threat of the Universe crumbling from their physical blows.  When they clashed Ki attacks later, it was made clear that _both their colliding power _was going to lead to the Universe collapsing.
> 
> ...


Yes I get it. And thus, Android 17 is a Universe Buster. That's great that you think the rest of the series supports this, but it doesn't.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> Yes I get it. And thus, Android 17 is a Universe Buster. That's great that you think the rest of the series supports this, but it doesn't.


Who the fuck made you WOG in DB to say what is suported and what's not ?Go eat a bowl of shit and shut up already. Your  opinions are not facts. Get your head out of your shitty ass.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

twirdman said:


> So wait you are claiming that Beerus contributed nearly all the energy.  How would that work.  They fought.  There were beam struggles.  If Goku wasn't contributing a significant fraction of the power of the attacks he would be destroyed instantly.  What you are suggesting is someone running into a moving train with a bike and stopping the train.  It is absurd.  God you are dumb.  Why can't you just leave.




The ENTIRE SCENE is absurd!! How do you not see that? Why are DBZ fans so rabid to force that scene to dictate the power of the rest of the series when it DOESN'T BLOODY WELL WORK??? 
You have to jump through hoops to explain how the rest of the series works with Goku being a universe buster, EVEN THOUGH IT IS NEVER SHOWN NOR STATED BY ANYONE SINCE IN OVER 100 GODDAMN EPISODES. 

On top of that, He's fighting people in the Tournament of power and they are still impressed by two Super Saiyan 2's fighting. If Super Saiyan Blue is a universe buster it's TRILLIONS OF TIMES MORE POWERFUL THAN SUPER SAYIAN 2. 
That's literally - LITERALLY - like a human being observing two molecules colliding and being in complete awe at the massively destructive forces at work... 

Universe busting Goku breaks the setting. Plain and simple.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> You are applying these definitions without reason and without proper context. Thus validating the opposite extreme of the very thing you are trying to prevent.
> 
> There's a difference between claiming something has no limits and acknowledging clear evidence that the character in question has barely tried. You are so adverse to "wank", that you do the opposite and place arbitrary limitations that spit in the face of what you know to be real.


On my debate team, last year, there were no rules as to what arguments you could make. Well, besides heckling and being "physically aggressive", and other minor shit. All tactics have flaws, but as long as you convince the other side/judges, who gives a fuck?


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> I'm not claiming Jiren has no limits. What I am saying is, it's reasonable to assume that; if it's debatable that Character A can beat Character B when he's bound and gagged; when he's not, Character A is going to have issues.




Right but until we have concrete stats to go off we can't give a character a boost just because they should be at a predetermined level.  We don't know how much more they have in them to dish out then what's shown, until we get shown further. 

It's like say someone has a unknown number larger than 50. Until we do know it there's no point in bringing it up. It could be 51, it could be infinity minus 1. And it could be anything in between. Until it's known what that number is exactly, we just say it's atleast fifty. 

This follows in line with the old debating saying. Go with oath of least assumptions.

Or let's use your previous example of someone destroying a planet with a pinky.  Yeah they would be planet level plus then because they did it effortlessly. But to say that character is star level or anything higher is a massive assumption. Can you put an exact number down to show what %of power was used to destroy the planet with a pinky, and extrapolate a max amount? 
Do you see why that can cause problems?


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## Reznor (Nov 10, 2017)

No flaming please


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## Reznor (Nov 10, 2017)

Take your argument somewhere else

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> On top of that, He's fighting people in the Tournament of power and they are still impressed by two Super Saiyan 2's fighting. If Super Saiyan Blue is a universe buster it's TRILLIONS OF TIMES MORE POWERFUL THAN SUPER SAYIAN 2.



Learn how power-scaling works.

After Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power, his base power was increased substantially to an equivalent level, and that extends to all of his Super Saiyan transformations.  To compare, Base Goku in "Resurrection 'F'" was powerful enough to fight on par with and overwhelm Final Form Frieza, while First Form Frieza was powerful enough to make mince-meat of fighters stronger than the Super Saiyan Goku that beat him on Namek (and the Super Saiyan Trunks that killed him).

That's how much more powerful absorbing Super Saiyan God made Goku.  Hell, a _copy _of Vegeta was curb-stomp SSJ 3 Gotenks in base. 

So your logic and argument is flawed at its core.



Comic fan 101 said:


> The ENTIRE SCENE is absurd!! How do you not see that? Why are DBZ fans so rabid to force that scene to dictate the power of the rest of the series when it DOESN'T BLOODY WELL WORK???



Because we don't have a set preconception about the series that is designed to downplay it to high-hell, while you're busy trying to hype your favorite comic characters to high heaven.  

We saw Beerus and Goku fight.  We saw Goku adapt to that level of power, eventually able to match Beerus' blows so their clash wouldn't produce anymore Universe-threatening shock-waves.  We know Goku absorbed that level of power into his body, and then attain an even higher level of power than Super Saiyan God, _a form we now know he can still access.
_
And the best part?  _*It.  Is.  Canon.  You little try-hard munchkin.*_ 



Comic fan 101 said:


> Universe busting Goku breaks the setting. Plain and simple.




That is one of the oldest and most cliche methods of downplaying in this entire hobby, boy.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

you guys concession is accepted. Idk how many times I have to constantly debunk you dudes, i wish you guys get better and learn from your mistakes LOL

I pretty much proved like the usual. we'll try again another time to see if improvement was in the works

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> you guys concession is accepted. Idk how many times I have to constantly debunk you dudes, i wish you guys get better and learn from your mistakes LOL
> 
> I pretty much proved like the usual. we'll try again another time to see if improvement was in the works



Of all the hype-boys for comics I have dealt with in the past, you are by far the most conceited and delusional of the bunch.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> you guys concession is accepted. Idk how many times I have to constantly debunk you dudes, i wish you guys get better and learn from your mistakes LOL



you're the "Mxy is beyond imagination" guy, I'd be surprised if you can debunk the Flat Earth theory

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 2


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## Claudio Swiss (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Of all the hype-boys for comics I have dealt with in the past, you are by far the most conceited and delusional of the bunch.


Wat about Ton boi


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

This guy is at least Ton-tier of bad . At least Ton was funny in his way. This guy wouldn't be able to make someone who inhaled nitrous oxide to chuckle.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Right but until we have concrete stats to go off we can't give a character a boost just because they should be at a predetermined level.  We don't know how much more they have in them to dish out then what's shown, until we get shown further.
> 
> It's like say someone has a unknown number larger than 50. Until we do know it there's no point in bringing it up. It could be 51, it could be infinity minus 1. And it could be anything in between. Until it's known what that number is exactly, we just say it's atleast fifty.
> 
> ...


There is no point in bring up the 50, either. Putting it at "at least 50"(just 50) is equally erroneous. The method you are using to equate for the unknown is equally as terrible as assuming infinity. Both methods cause problems. For whatever reason, you're resigned to one school of thought and far be it from me to overturn the apple cart.  I would rather not carry on this discussion.

We will just have to agree to disagree, as there is no effort being made to reach common ground.


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

But what I said, is not an assumption.

And good as this is horribly off topic and belongs in a meta. If not the trash bin.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> Learn how power-scaling works.
> 
> After Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God's power, his base power was increased substantially to an equivalent level, and that extends to all of his Super Saiyan transformations.  To compare, Base Goku in "Resurrection 'F'" was powerful enough to fight on par with and overwhelm Final Form Frieza, while First Form Frieza was powerful enough to make mince-meat of fighters stronger than the Super Saiyan Goku that beat him on Namek (and the Super Saiyan Trunks that killed him).
> 
> ...



LMAO GTFO The Gods of Destruction fighting in the Anime were CLEARLY not even trying. There was no signs of exertion from any of them.
Compare that to the Manga wherein all the Gods of Destruction were fighting all out and Goku couldn't even tell what was going on and was completely and utterly flabbergasted by the power being thrown around. The fight was a complete incomprehensible mess to him.

So yeah, when the Gods of destruction are THAT far beyond him that he can't begin to fathom what's going on in an all out fight between them? It makes EVEN MORE SENSE that Gods of Destruction are universe busters and Goku isn't.

Look at all these mountainous heapings of evidence AGAINST Goku being a universe buster ... against one inconsistent scene at the very start of a very long series . LOL

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> There is no point in bring up the 50, either. Putting it at "at least 50" is equally erroneous. The method you are using to equate for the unknown is equally as terrible as assuming infinity. Both methods cause problems. For whatever reason, you're resigned to one school of thought and far be it from me to overturn the apple cart.  I would rather not carry on this discussion.
> 
> We will just have to agree to disagree, as there is no effort being made to reach common ground.


The 50 is all we have to work off in this instance. You can't just assume a higher tier without proper evidence. That's why most DBS characters here are stuck at universal+. Until we see more of what Jiren can do, he's low GoD tier. That person who's above 50 can't be 100 until we know for certain that he is 100 or wherever you think he should be.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> On my debate team, last year, there were no rules as to what arguments you could make. Well, besides heckling and being "physically aggressive", and other minor shit. All tactics have flaws, but as long as you convince the other side/judges, who gives a fuck?


When I read this, the 1st thing that came to mind was the Senator arguing there was no global warming because he had a snow ball.


Blakk Jakk said:


> The 50 is all we have to work off in this instance...


I feel deeply compelled to explain why this is a bad practice and explain why I'm not a fan of making up numbers/placements/levels either, but I will demonstrate self control and just leave this all alone.


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> I feel deeply compelled to explain why this is a bad practice and explain why I'm not fan of making up numbers/placements/levels either, but I will demonstrate self control and just leave this all alone.


But you're not doing a good job of explaining your position here. You're just saying that we're wrong to place Jiren at low GoD tier without any counter argument as to why he should be higher.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> What are you trying to imply?


That the Earth is triangular in shape


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> That the Earth is triangular in shape.


" I don't like it" . That's your only "argument here". If you're so flabbergasted by the way we do things here, by all means, tell us a better method. I'm dying to find out.


BlazeDrew said:


> That the Earth is triangular in shape


Should we even take you seriously ?


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> " I don't like it" . That's your only "argument here". If you're so flabbergasted by the way we do things here, by all means, tell us a better method. I'm dying to find out.
> 
> Should we even take you seriously ?





Blakk Jakk said:


> But you're not doing a good job of explaining your position here. You're just saying that we're wrong to place Jiren at low GoD tier without any counter argument as to why he should be higher.


I should not have to explain this to you. This should be obvious. If a road stretches as far as the eye can see, saying it's not infinite, but instead acting is if it is as long as human eyesight should also appear be obviously bad to you.  It is the literal opposite end of the fallacy.

This is why I don't see the point in continuing. How can we go further if there is no acknowledgement of the full scope of basic critical thinking?


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## Nep Heart (Nov 10, 2017)

There is some serious "Personal Incredulity" going on here with at least two people in this thread...


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> I should not have to explain this to you. This should be obvious. If a road stretches as far as the eye can see, saying it's not infinite, but instead acting is if it is as long as human eyesight should also appear be obviously bad to you.  It is the literal opposite end of the fallacy.
> 
> This is why I don't see the point in continuing.


You realize that an infinite looking road doesn't not mean it's infinite? Our eyes are deeply flawed in several ways so this is a bad analogy here. Unlike Jiren who's feats have yet to be fully explored, we can actually measure roads. Jiren has more to show and when his feats are fully explored, we can properly measure him. Until then, his standing is his standing. If you don't like it, wait until the show is over and prove us all wrong.


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

Blazedrew, if your not a fan of making up numbers, placements or levels for fictional characters... What are you doing on this board? 
I'm not trying to be mean I'm genuinely curious.

You do realize that is  a basic premise for having any vs match between two characters from different  fictional universes. Without it there'd be no order here at all, only chaos.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> You realize that an infinite looking road doesn't not mean it's infinite? Our eyes are deeply flawed in several ways so this is a bad analogy here. Unlike Jiren who's feats have yet to be fully explored, we can actually measure roads. Jiren has more to show and when his feats are fully explored, we can properly measure him. Until then, his standing is his standing. If you don't like it, wait until the show is over and prove us all wrong.


This is what I mean. I'm not on the side of anything being infinite.

Jiren is the road. Your Placement of him is the measurement calculated based on faulty logic. You know the road is longer than what you've placed it at, but you've chosen the result that gives you a number. The measurement is not any closer to being correct.


SSMG said:


> Blazedrew, if your not a fan of making up numbers, placements or levels for fictional characters... What are you doing on this board?
> I'm not trying to be mean I'm genuinely curious.
> 
> You do realize that is a basic premise for having any vs match between two characters from different fictional universes. Without it there'd be no order here at all, only chaos.


I like chaos. Let ideas run wild.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 10, 2017)

Dude said he wanted to drop this shit a long time ago. LMAO

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> This is what I mean. I'm not on the side of anything being infinite.
> 
> Jiren is the road. Your Placement of him is the measurement calculated based on faulty logic. You know the road is longer than what you've placed it at, but you've chosen the result that gives you a number. The measurement is not any closer to being correct.


Yes Jiren is the road but we are currently measuring him as the show goes on because the road has yet to end just like the show. We the viewer are the car watching and using the results we've got so far. Right now, what we have is a hypothesis that's supported by what's been shown in the show. What you're advocating for is either not use him in matches until the show isn't over which I can't stop or to make up a tier for him which is no different than what you said was wrong with making up placements even though that's what you're advocating for.


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> This is what I mean. I'm not on the side of anything being infinite.
> 
> Jiren is the road. Your Placement of him is the measurement calculated based on faulty logic. You know the road is longer than what you've placed it at, but you've chosen the result that gives you a number. The measurement is not any closer to being correct.
> 
> I like chaos. Let ideas run wild.



Easy there Littlefinger.

But what you're arguing for is a  form of no limit fallacy. Any time you are using a fallacy to promote your premises, take a breather(or a smoke usually in my case) and rethink the premise.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

@MusubiKazesaru  me thinks this is enough. This thread had enough bad posters to ruin it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

Yeah, I'm done. You all have your ways of doing things. That's very clear. And I respect that. I'm just going to compile a mental list of character threads to avoid.

Saitama 
Jiren

Reactions: Like 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> Yeah, I'm done. You all have your ways of doing things. That's very clear. And I respect that. I'm just going to compile a mental list of character threads to avoid.
> 
> Saitama
> Jiren


And pretty much every series that hasn't ended yet cause you know.. infinite road and shit.


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

Check that out drew if you got time.  You can search any character you want and see where we have them placed. Now that proly needs some seriois updating but meh better than nothing .

Edit-https://

Doesn't hurt to check that out too.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> Stop.


Stop what ? I'm just going by your logic here.


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## Nep Heart (Nov 10, 2017)

Guy says he gives up, may as well let him.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Stop what ? I'm just going by your logic here.


You just spent this entire time arguing at me and didn't comprehend a damn thing I said.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

bunch of bad posters on here smh im out.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> You just spent this entire time arguing at me and didn't comprehend a damn thing I said.


That's the thing. you didn't say anything. You came here butthurt because we had the gall to limit the characters by what they have shown on screen. That's all you did. 
Anyway, i'm going to stop now . I'll get back to it if this mentality of yours will persist.


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## BlazeDrew (Nov 10, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> That's the thing. you didn't say anything. You came here butthurt because we had the gall to limit the characters by what they have shown on screen. That's all you did.
> Anyway, i'm going to stop now . I'll get back to it if this mentality of yours will persist.


How old are you?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> bunch of bad posters on here smh im out.


Oh look , someone felt targeted. Why, no, you are the best debater on this forum. We take our pride in the fact that we have as a debater here. Never doubt about that.


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## SSMG (Nov 10, 2017)

Cya tmrw bud.


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## Comic fan 101 (Nov 10, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Oh look , someone felt targeted. Why, no, you are the best debater on this forum. We take our pride in the fact that we have as a debater here. Never doubt about that.



You right. I am the best debater on OBD. I feel like i should be treated better but hey that's what you get from being skilled right? haters lol but you have a good night

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Perpetrator Rex (Nov 10, 2017)

BlazeDrew said:


> How old are you?


Ignore function works wonders, bruh. Use it.


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## Edward Nygma (Nov 10, 2017)

Comic fan 101 said:


> you guys concession is accepted. Idk how many times I have to constantly debunk you dudes, i wish you guys get better and learn from your mistakes LOL


Just gonna ignore my earlier post then? K.

You can't debunk us until you start debating with our methods in mind. You can't apply purely objective logic to a mostly subjective hobby.

If by "learn from your mistakes" you mean you hope we will start quantifying fiction how you think it should be done, you might as well just leave. It will literally *never *happened*.
*
We aren't going to downgrade universe busters just because their fights don't always bust the planet they are on. We aren't going to call speed feat totally in quantifiable because there isn't a clearly stated timeframe. And we aren't going to start trying to quantify claims like "beyond imagination".

If you don't like how we have chosen to handle the subjective aspects of the hobby, you are free to take your debates elsewhere.

@LazyWaka @MusubiKazesaru @KaiserWombat 

This kind of blatant disregard for the basic foundation of our debate style - especially in conjunction with his demands for us to adapt to his own methods - has to constitute a violation of the section rules. 

Is there really nothing in the rules that compells people to form their argument with our methods in mind? He is activly derailing threads just to tell us that our standard assumptions and practices are wrong. Is this really acceptable?


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