# General OBD Assumptions



## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

There seems to be some confusion as to what governs the assumed standards of fights.  I've noticed that newer members to the OBD, and even some older ones, don't seem to know what the general assumptions are.  Also, there even seems to be quite a bit of variance in what some consider to be the standards.  

By standards and assumptions, I mean the assumptions that get made when the original poster isn't specific in the setting or details of the fight they create. (*Note:* If the original poster is specific in the details, all other posts in that thread _should_ be made with those specific details in mind.)

I'm making this in the hopes that newer members know exactly what to base their arguments, in _non-specific threads_, on.  I also hope that most, or all, ambiguity is removed by a general consensus by all that give their input in this thread.

I intend to add to and update this thread as different ideas are brought forth.

Whenever possible, battle descriptions should be detailed, including:

1. What versions of the characters are being used.
2. The location of the battlefield and any special conditions thereof.
3. Whether the combatants are blood lusted and/or in character.
4. The interaction of any inherent characteristics/powers/vulnerabilities available to one character but not the other (ie. chakra, reiatsu, ki) for the purpose of this battle.
5. Any further specific restrictions for the purpose of this battle.

When these items are not specified, the following will be assumed:

*Canon:*
This is pretty much clear cut in most people's minds.

Any form of a series that the original author or creator had the largest part, and near full autonomy, in creating. This would of course mean manga for most series, and anime for a select few.  In 99% of most cases, whatever form of a series came first is what is considered to be canon.

There are some special cases though, like with Final Fantasy VII, where two of the creators of the original game, Nomura Tetsuya and Nojima Kazushige, were also the directors of the movie Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children.  In this case, the movie is also considered canon, even though it isn't the original form of the series.

Another is s-CRY-ed, where both the anime and manga were written by the same person, but both series ended up being totally different.  It is completely up to those replying in the thread to choose which version of the characters involved should be used.

*Settings:*
Even though this is called the Battle_dome_, often times I've seen people speak as if the fight is occurring on a street or in a forest.  This is a fairly important issue, because many fighters game plans drastically change depending on their surroundings.

Unless otherwise stated, the battle should take place in an unobstructed dome similar to the Room of Spirit and Time, thus allowing for large-scale fighters, like Dark Schneider and Vegitto, to still have space move around.

*Character Knowledge:*
The safe assumption would be that unless it is otherwise stated by the original poster, it should be assumed that the characters involved have no knowledge of each other's abilities.

*Plot Influences:*
Null and void, unless there are certain acceptable exceptions that should be made that I haven't taken into account while typing this.

*Character Induced Stupidity:* 
It should be on, but the characters should be out to win.  

CIS refers to a character's tendencies in battle.  Basically, just because a character can go all out from the start and use their most powerful abilities, or use tactics that would ensure victory, they most likely won't, if CIS is in effect.

*Starting Distance:*
Combatants start 20 paces apart from one another.

*Blood Lust:* 
It should be on, unless otherwise stated.

One would think that if you take two characters and pit them against each other, they would try to end it as quickly and brutally as possible.

Why?  

There would _not even be a battle_ for a good deal of these threads without some sort of blood lust.

*Powers/Character Version Allowed:*
This is one of the most argued rules/assumptions.  There are multiple perspectives on which version of a character should be used.

The explanation that I like the most is PDQ's belief that we should make fights multi-conditional, where we allow the posters replying to the thread pick and choose which versions of a character they want to use.

The reason that this should be done is to allow for posters to pick and choose which characters' versions would create the best fight to debate on.

In the end, it may avoid possible rapestomps.

Former rule that some may still want to defend the use of:
I believe that most would agree that unless an original poster is specific, we should use the most current/last living _developed_ incarnations of the characters.

In other words, the character would be at their peak performance from the last time they appeared.

*Ability Overlap/Universe Equivalence:*
This is where things become even more unclear.

I still see the odd new member say something along the lines of "that won't work because they have no reiatsu/reishi/chakra/ki/yoki/spiritual power/etc..."

To make it fair for all combatants, any ability that they have which is prevalent upon their opponent having the same type of power, that everyone in their universe has, is still usable.  You may wonder "why is that?"

It's simple, not only does it give everyone a fighting chance, but it's also because all of the above mentioned forms of power are at least somewhat based on the same principle.  _Spirit_.

Also, just because one character lives in a universe where there is no magic, that doesn't mean that all magical attacks from the other combatant aren't usable.

I admit that this one is veeery highly disagreed upon.

*Notable Issues or Exceptions to the Power Overlap rule:*
Next, it should be noted that any general universal ability that allows for an automatic win shouldn't be allowed, like Bleach character's invisibility due to them being spirits.

Another example is Kujaku's intangibility.  Just because it makes him unable to be hurt, for the most part, it doesn't mean that he is able to withstand spiritual attacks.  It also doesn't mean that his ultimate technique of causing all of his surrounding opponents to become intangible would work on someone with no physical body.  (You may be going "No shit!", but I can seriously see some people trying to argue against this.)

There may be others that I haven't thought of at the time that this was posted.

*Until further notice, Haki (One Piece) is an exception too. - Kamen Rider Ryoma, 27. August 2010*


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## Totitos (Jul 22, 2007)

Brilliant,I cant beleive this hasnt been done along time ago.


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## Arachnia (Jul 22, 2007)

This should be stickied as a rule for OBD fights


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## MdB (Jul 22, 2007)

That's some quality stuff.


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## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

I have to admit that I'm entertaining hopes of a sticky....>>

Thanks for the support, people.  

One thing though, could you give your own opinion for some of the fight variables?  I don't want this thread to only be composed of my own opinion.


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## Keollyn (Jul 22, 2007)

Settings, if not specified, should be in a general indestructive dome. 

Bloodlust should be assumed on unless stated otherwise. In versus fights, we are assuming that characters are fighting with the intent to win. Knowing how some characters personality are, this will not happen. So you have to give them that bloodlust status in order to make them fight. 

Powers allowed I don't agree with. Characters should be their current selves unless stated otherwise. So any powers that they "had" should not be usable. This is like the Dante/Samus conundrum (powers from previous games are lost, but people like to use them anyway)

Ability overlapping is tricky as some energy are extremely dependent on a specific verse. Reiatsu is a form a spiritual power, with only one property, so it's possible that it can be thought of as universal. Naruto's chakra, on the other hand, has two (or more) properties, and thus, makes it improbable for universal use. Ki/chi are actual philosophical concept, and thus, can be universally accepted. 

I've seen the argument for Claymore's Yoki. I'm not sure what's to argue. It's demon energy. This stuff has been touched on in series like Inuyasha, YYH, and Saiyuki. It's basically a form of chi/ki, but for demons. So this can be universally accepted.

The only form of energy I know that's real tricky to incorporate universally is nen. But I'm not to far into HxH so I can't speak much about it.

As for other abilities... I'm sure we've all come to agree that abilities that allow for the fighter to walk away with the win automatically (Bleach and invisibility) is not accepted. So stuff like that are disgarded.


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## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

Keollyn said:


> Settings, if not specified, should be in a general indestructive dome.


How large, and shouldn't it have obstacles of some sort, or do you propose a bland surface?



Keollyn said:


> Bloodlust should be assumed on unless stated otherwise. In versus fights, we are assuming that characters are fighting with the intent to win. Knowing how some characters personality are, this will not happen. So you have to give them that bloodlust status in order to make them fight.


These are my thoughts exactly.



Keollyn said:


> Powers allowed I don't agree with. Characters should be their current selves unless stated otherwise. So any powers that they "had" should not be usable. This is like the Dante/Samus conundrum (powers from previous games are lost, but people like to use them anyway)


Sorry, I should have been more clear.

I mean, the powers that they are able to use are dependent on what version of the characters they are using.

But I like your idea of only using the "current" version unless otherwise stated.



Keollyn said:


> As for other abilities... I'm sure we've all come to agree that abilities that allow for the fighter to walk away with the win automatically (Bleach and invisibility) is not accepted. So stuff like that are disgarded.


Well, this is tricky as well, because there should be quite a bit of difference of opinion on where exactly to draw the line.  

But I agree for the most part.  I'll make the changes to the OP.


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## Timur Lane (Jul 22, 2007)

About bloodlust, i think its okay to assume that bloodlust should always be on unless the the thread creator states otherwise.

Good list, this should probably be stickied so the newcomers can get how the OB functions.


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## Keollyn (Jul 22, 2007)

Haterade said:


> How large, and shouldn't it have obstacles of some sort, or do you propose a bland surface?



Well since it's a standard "the opener was to lazy to set up a fight area" it should be unobstructed. As for the size? Eh, how about we just change it to the room of time and space from DBZ? That should be the standard arena 



> Sorry, I should have been more clear.
> 
> I mean, the powers that they are able to use are dependent on what version of the characters they are using.
> 
> But I like your idea of only using the "current" version unless otherwise stated.



You have an example? I'm still a bit confused :sweat



> Well, this is tricky as well, because there should be quite a bit of difference of opinion on where exactly to draw the line.
> 
> But I agree for the most part.  I'll make the changes to the OP.



With the invisibility thing? I think the majority agrees that Bleach's advantage there should be stripped in order to make it a fight. Unless you want to propose every Bleach fight now specify if they are in shinigami form or in gigai form?

The latter could work, but newbies wouldn't notice this, and thus, it should just be left as an ability they aren't allowed to use. Unless you're speaking of different universal abilities entirely. Then yeah, I suppose we can observe which ones are usable and which ones are not. Case by case basis, perhaps.

Otherwise, great thread. Finally the unwritten rules are being written.


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## Timur Lane (Jul 22, 2007)

Keollyn said:


> With the invisibility thing? I think the majority agrees that Bleach's advantage there should be stripped in order to make it a fight. Unless you want to propose every Bleach fight now specify if they are in shinigami form or in gigai form?



I was thinking, which other verses needs restrictions on their powers like the Bleach verse??

The only one i can think of is the JJBA universe with the whole "only other stand users can see stands".


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## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

Timur Lane said:


> About bloodlust, i think its okay to assume that bloodlust should always be on unless the the thread creator states otherwise.
> 
> Good list, this should probably be stickied so the newcomers can get how the OB functions.


Thanks.



Keollyn said:


> Well since it's a standard "the opener was to lazy to set up a fight area" it should be unobstructed. As for the size? Eh, how about we just change it to the room of time and space from DBZ? That should be the standard arena


I like this.

I'll change it.



Keollyn said:


> You have an example? I'm still a bit confused :sweat


Like I mean, someone can't use powers that different versions of a character have at once.

Like you can't use preskip Jio's powers and postskip Jio's powers at the same time(preskip Shin Zero with postskip Ruby's necklace O-Parts, for example).

edit: Actually, to simplify it, let's just go with "current version unless otherwise stated"....



Keollyn said:


> With the invisibility thing? I think the majority agrees that Bleach's advantage there should be stripped in order to make it a fight. Unless you want to propose every Bleach fight now specify if they are in shinigami form or in gigai form?


Nah, I actually meant with the issue in general although besides Bleach, this hasn't come up *too* much, at least in my experiences.



Keollyn said:


> Otherwise, great thread. Finally the unwritten rules are being written.


Yeah, I felt a need to make this concrete.


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## Shuntensatsu (Jul 22, 2007)

Yes the fight should take place in an area that doesn't benefit either side unless otherwise specified.

Room of Spirit and time is good as has been stated.  A battle with Amano Ginji in it would not be in Mugen Jo unless otherwise stated.

Bleach shinigamis are invisible to normal humans.  Most people who participate in OBD battles are NOT normal humans, thus they can see Bleach shinigamis unless the OP says otherwise.


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## ez (Jul 22, 2007)

no bleach shinigami and hollow are invisible to those that have no reiatsu or spiritual energy :>

i thought these rules were sorth of 'known'  anyway good list


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 22, 2007)

setting
If the field isn't specificed, and it rarely is, I assume it's in an open field, but one that has random cover around. That being said, I think a more important issue is the assumption of how close the fighters start from one another. 

bloodlust
Many characters own nature and fighting style has never been bloodlusted. Moreover, many characters have many diffrent moves and thier personalities often depend on what they would use while bloodlusted. In essence then, I don't think we should assume 'ultimate' bloodlust that defies the characters own established bloodlusted fighting style. For example, if we assume bloodlust is at it's pinnacle, Zoro would just bust out Asura immediately in ever Obd fight. However, if we assume it is a "bloodlusted fight" but with Zoro in character he would fight with his other moves first, and only resort to Asura as a trumph card. Another example would be Deidara. If we assume ultimate bloodlust he should always start off the fight with his sucide blast. lol. 
------
It should always be the most current canon version, unless the op indicates otherwise at some time or another.

If some chars uses an ability 1 time in a 50 year run they should not be able to break it out and use it perfectly just because. 
-------------

Why should it be assumed that any character has high reiatsu unless they have some establish remotely similar energy equivalent ? Honestly, that removes to much from Bleach. To clarify, I'm not saying the Bleach char should be unable to be hurt, but that their Reiatsu properties should retain some semblance of there intended original purpose. I.E. Breaking people's fighting spirit, allowing them to do damage, and withstanding damage. Take Shanks and Aizen as an example. Both of them have made people of presumbly good strength bow to them from their aura's alone. So in an Aizen Vs Cp9 fight, Aizen should be able to make them drop like little 3 year old girls ? They should not have assumed high reiatsu.


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## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

Shuntensatsu said:


> Yes the fight should take place in an area that doesn't benefit either side unless otherwise specified.
> 
> Room of Spirit and time is good as has been stated.  A battle with Amano Ginji in it would not be in Mugen Jo unless otherwise stated.
> 
> Bleach shinigamis are invisible to normal humans.  Most people who participate in OBD battles are NOT normal humans, thus they can see Bleach shinigamis unless the OP says otherwise.


Yup.



ScarFace said:


> i thought these rules were sorth of 'known'  anyway good list


The rules were known mostly only to the experienced members.

Plus, the mere fact that they were unwritten rules meant that pretty much anyone could choose to disregard them as they pleased.



Kaname said:


> If the field isn't specificed, and it rarely is, I assume it's in an semi-open field. That being said, I think a more important issue is the assumption of how close the fighters start from one another.


Hmmm..... good point....



Kaname said:


> Many characters own nature and fighting style has never been bloodlusted. Moreover, many characters have many diffrent moves and thier personalities often depend on what they would use while bloodlusted. In essence then, I don't think we should assume 'ultimate' bloodlust that defies the characters own established bloodlusted fighting style. For example, if we assume bloodlust is at it's pinnacle, Zoro would just bust out Asura immediately in ever Obd fight. However, if we assume it is a "bloodlusted fight" but with Zoro in character he would fight with his other moves first, and only resort to Asura as a trumph card.
> 
> Another example would be Deidara. If we assume ultimate bloodlust he should always start off the fight with his sucide blast. lol.


How about moderate bloodlust?

They would be lusted enough to attempt pre-emptive strikes, but not so bloodlusted that they would use their ultimate techniques right from the get go?



Kaname said:


> I disagree with this. It should always be the most current canon version, unless the op indicates otherwise at some time or another.
> 
> if some chars uses an ability 1 time in a 50 year run they should be able to break it out and use it perfectly in the fight ? C'mon.


You quoted me before I edited.




Kaname said:


> I find the first paragraph is contradictory to the last two. Specifically,
> why should it be assumed that any character has high reiatsu unless they have some establish remotely similar energy equivalent ? Honestly, that theology removes to much from Bleach. To clarify, I'm not saying the Bleach char should be unable to be hurt, but that their Reiatsu properties should retain some semblance of there intended original purpose. I.E. Breaking people's fighting spirit, allowing them to do damage, and withstanding damage.


You can have a high enough reiatsu to see the spirits in Bleach, but still be weak enough to be affected by a reiatsu release and other Bleach-only abilities. (read: Tatsuki and Keigo)



Kaname said:


> Take Shanks and Aizen as an example. Both of them have made people of presumbly good strength bow to them from their aura's alone. Yet, the above seems to be suggesting we should assume in, say an Aizen Vs Cp9 fight, that Aizen can't make them drop like little 3 year old girls because they should have presumed high reiatsu ?


I never said anything about any of that.  You're assuming too much.

Like I said above, you can have a high enough reiatsu to be able to see the spirits in Bleach, yet still be able to be affected by the other aspects of Shinigami's spiritual powers.


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## PDQ (Jul 22, 2007)

Mostly good.  The setting seems fair for the most part, but I feel like there's situations where two people's abilities would best be assumed as fighting in a non open area(say two fish people fighting in the oceans) because that's where they're known best.  While a OP can certainly set the arena to such a setting explicitly and there's not too many people like that, it would be nice to incorporate some sort of way to assume the most advantageous arena to both parties(like in the NBD, Gaara vs. Zabuza often happens at a beach).  Although as a rule of thumb I suppose an open arena works well enough to avoid ambiguity.  

As for powers allowed, I would think their strongest incarnation would be used rather than their current one.  Especially if a character is say...dead.  To use only the current version wouldn't account for depowering.  I mean, certain characters were certainly broken in their peak, but they are more feasible to argue about than a dead character.  Also the notion of literary present tense makes all time frames current.  Rather a more accurate wording if you wish to used that would be the latest revealed by the author(s).

Also there's the issue of which continuity should be used(for example do we assume all discussion about a specific series is in regards to the original form, rather than any adaptations?  and if that applies to everything, wouldn't the golden or silver age superman be the one being used?).  Is it just the most recent continuity regardless of author?  Only authorized continuities?  Something like only "fan-accepted" continuities is extremely subjective although I suppose we could draw up entire lists for each assumed world what to use.


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## Keollyn (Jul 22, 2007)

Bloodlust should stay the way it is. Any other means of a fight needs to be set by the thread starter. This is their responsibility. They want to create a fight, it's their job to set it up correctly.


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## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

PDQ said:


> Mostly good.  The setting seems fair for the most part, but I feel like there's situations where two people's abilities would best be assumed as fighting in a non open area(say two fish people fighting in the oceans) because that's where they're known best.  While a OP can certainly set the arena to such a setting explicitly and there's not too many people like that, it would be nice to incorporate some sort of way to assume the most advantageous arena to both parties(like in the NBD, Gaara vs. Zabuza often happens at a beach).  Although as a rule of thumb I suppose an open arena works well enough to avoid ambiguity.


Yeah, I'm going for the simplest rules possible.

The less ambiguity, the less pointless arguing about the settings and minor details.



PDQ said:


> As for powers allowed, I would think their strongest incarnation would be used rather than their current one.  Especially if a character is say...dead.  To use only the current version wouldn't account for depowering.  I mean, certain characters were certainly broken in their peak, but they are more feasible to argue about than a dead character.  Also the notion of literary present tense makes all time frames current.  Rather a more accurate wording if you wish to used that would be the latest revealed by the author(s).


Now this is getting a bit sticky.

I would like to get more opinions until we make a final verdict.



PDQ said:


> Also there's the issue of which continuity should be used(for example do we assume all discussion about a specific series is in regards to the original form, rather than any adaptations?  and if that applies to everything, wouldn't the golden or silver age superman be the one being used?).  Is it just the most recent continuity regardless of author?  Only authorized continuities?  Something like only "fan-accepted" continuities is extremely subjective although I suppose we could draw up entire lists for each assumed world what to use.


I believe most would agree that only the most canon continuity should be used, thus the original work.



Keollyn said:


> Bloodlust should stay the way it is. Any other means of a fight needs to be set by the thread starter. This is their responsibility. They want to create a fight, it's their job to set it up correctly.


Point taken.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 22, 2007)

Haterade said:


> There seems to be some confusion as to what governs the *assumed standards of fights*.



Yeah, it starts with the ASSUMED CALCULATIONS of a characters speed, power etc. If it is not in the Anime or Manga it should not be used.

BTW, Souls are mentioned in DBZ. You know that little halo hovering around Goku's SOUL!


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## Ippy (Jul 22, 2007)

Those are spirits.


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## Dio Brando (Jul 22, 2007)

This thread is tl;dr, but on the bloodlust point, I personally prefer in character, but out to win. BUT assumed bloodlust is probably for the best.

Powers allowed, IMO, should be pretty much everything shown, unless they have been specifically depowered. So current is the best.

I like the spirit time room as a battlefield, its familiar, big and easy to remember.

"Overlaps" should really be specified by the OP, but in the case it isn't, I think the regulars should provide different answers for the different situation (ie If genjutsu works, he can win, if it doesn't he loses, etc)

Anyways nice thread Hate.


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## Darklyre (Jul 23, 2007)

Phenomenol said:


> Yeah, it starts with the ASSUMED CALCULATIONS of a characters speed, power etc. If it is not in the Anime or Manga it should not be used.
> 
> BTW, Souls are mentioned in DBZ. You know that little halo hovering around Goku's SOUL!



Souls seem to be handled differently in DBZ than in other fictions. For one, they can fully interact with the physical realm and vice versa. Secondly, attacks powered by ki appear not to be able to hurt the soul when the physical body is still alive (unlike Bleach, where an attack can bypass the physical body entirely and hurt the soul). Small distinctions, but could be important.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 23, 2007)

It's really no big deal. I just wanted to clarify that souls are mentioned in DBZ.


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## Ippy (Jul 23, 2007)

Those are _spirits_.

There are no mention of souls in DBZ, unless you have scans stating otherwise.

Spirits can be described as the bridge that interconnects the physical body to the other planes of existence, or souls depending on who you ask, but they aren't souls themselves.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 23, 2007)

> Powers Allowed:
> I believe that most would agree that unless an OP is specific, we should use the most current incarnations of the characters.



lawl

With that logic, 99.9999999999999999% of the Narutoverse > Magneto

That part needs more discussion


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## EvilMoogle (Jul 23, 2007)

Gai said:


> lawl
> 
> With that logic, 99.9999999999999999% of the Narutoverse > Magneto
> 
> That part needs more discussion



Well, if you want to get technical, when last seen Magneto was empowered by the Collective and had all the powers of depowered mutants 

However I think it's a fair assumption to say the most recent _developed_ character (so current Juggernaut is mostly depowered despite the fact that he has the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak as it's currently uncertain if he's been repowered or to what degree).  If the poster wants to use a different incarnation than that they should specify it.

Though if it's an utter curbstomp as-is personally I'd generally assume an incarnation to make it more normal (current Juggernaut vs. Superman would be laughable, classic Juggernaut vs. Superman might be interesting).


On a separate note, I'd like to see a default-assumed canon in the list as well (does Dragonball assume the manga, or the manga and the anime?  What about GT?  The movies?  Does Star Wars assume just the movies or the movies and other G-Canon sources?  What about the extended universe items?)


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## Piekage (Jul 23, 2007)

Great thread Haterade. Hopefully I can contribute with these. Location between combatants is an issue I see a lot, especially with "Person A vs Verse B". Most people assume that a person is dropped in the middle of an enemy stronghold, while others think he's is the safest place possible at the moment. I think it could  be assumed that combatants are say, a mile or so apart, unless otherwise stated.

Another is canon. A lot of people assume that the anime is canon. Rather than waste time arguing about it, how about it's assumed that it's the most recent incarnation, unless otherwise stated?


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## Ippy (Jul 23, 2007)

Gai said:


> lawl
> 
> With that logic, 99.9999999999999999% of the Narutoverse > Magneto
> 
> That part needs more discussion


I agree that it needs more discussion, thus why I've been asking for input. 

*@Evil Moogle:* Good points.  

I'll make the distinction in the OP.



Piekage said:


> Great thread Haterade. Hopefully I can contribute with these. Location between combatants is an issue I see a lot, especially with "Person A vs Verse B". Most people assume that a person is dropped in the middle of an enemy stronghold, while others think he's is the safest place possible at the moment. I think it could  be assumed that combatants are say, a mile or so apart, unless otherwise stated.


Oh, in the "Person A vs. Universe B" types of threads, we should assume that whoever is being dropped into another verse is roughly a mile away from whoever the first set of combatants s/he would have to face?

I like that.  I'll add it.



Piekage said:


> Another is canon. A lot of people assume that the anime is canon. Rather than waste time arguing about it, how about it's assumed that it's the most recite incarnation, unless otherwise stated?


Most recite? 

Well anyway, now that it was brought up, I'll put it down as "Any works of a series that the original author or creator had the largest part, and near full autonomy in creating."  This would of course mean manga for most series, and anime for a select few.


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## Keollyn (Jul 23, 2007)

Everyone knows that current isn't including depowered or non-living folks. Anyone who's bringing that up are being sticklers. It's understandable that it's either the current version of the character or their most recently empowered characterization.

As for person vs. universe.... that again is left to the responsibility of the thread creator. Otherwise, posters should be allowed to come up with their own scenarios.

I just think certain threads should really be the responsibility of the ones creating it, and threads missing setups aren't the fault of the posters.

But I guess for this thread, we could come up with OBD assumptions for them.


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## Ippy (Jul 23, 2007)

Hmmm.... that's a good point as well.

I guess we should avoid _too_ much "regulation".


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## Keollyn (Jul 23, 2007)

Yeah, just tackle the more important ones. The minor or trivial ones can be given recommendations, but those shouldn't be main OBD unwritten "written" rules.


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## Red (Jul 23, 2007)

> Lastly, the overlap rule should not be confused with opponents that have radically different makeups. An example is that just because DBZ character's energy blasts are all pulled from their own ki, and thus spiritual power, that doesn't mean that they can damage someone's soul/ideal bodies. Their ki attacks can damage spiritual bodies, and that is undeniable, but since there has never been even a mention of souls in DBZ(Yes, there is a difference...), they shouldn't have any effect on souls.


I so strongly disagree with this. and it contradicts



> I still see the odd new member say something along the lines of "that won't work because they have no reiatsu/reishi/chakra/ki/yoki/spiritual power/etc..."
> 
> To make it fair for all combatants, any ability that they have which is prevalent upon their opponent having the same type of power, that everyone in their universe has, is still usable



apart from that thumbs for clearification


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## PDQ (Jul 24, 2007)

Haterade said:


> Well anyway, now that it was brought up, I'll put it down as "Any works of a series that the original author or creator had the largest part, and near full autonomy in creating."  This would of course mean manga for most series, and anime for a select few.



Do the original creators of Superman have anything to do with the largest part in creating the current incarnation of Superman?

"The most canon continuity" is a sticky and subjective subject.  IIRC, Spiderman vs. Firelord was a battle in canon continuity.



> Everyone knows that current isn't including depowered or non-living folks. Anyone who's bringing that up are being sticklers. It's understandable that it's either the current version of the character or their most recently empowered characterization.


By "most recently empowered characterization", are you saying as long as they're not completely powerless, it's applicable?  So say Gaara would be postextraction because he still has sand power?  Wouldn't the unwritten assumption be him at his peak(preextraction)?
It's a tradeoff between peak powers and recent powers.
You have to pick a single superlative criterion, having two introduces ambiguity(which defeats the purpose of clearing up what the assumptions are)

I find unwritten rules are often unwritten because they're too complex to list down or ambiguous when you try, not just because everyone was too lazy to try.  I'm under the assumption we're trying to develop intuitive assumptions in this thread rather than contrived ones, but that tends to conflict with the principle of simplicity.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 24, 2007)

PDQ said:


> By "most recently empowered characterization", are you saying as long as they're not completely powerless, it's applicable?



No, that's not what I'm "saying" at all. Not even in the same ballpark. 



> So say Gaara would be postextraction because he still has sand power?  Wouldn't the unwritten assumption be him at his peak(preextraction)?
> It's a tradeoff between peak powers and recent powers.
> You have to pick a single superlative criterion, having two introduces ambiguity(which defeats the purpose of clearing up what the assumptions are)



I think you're delving a little too much into this. The character currently has no power? Fine. Use the point in which they had powers last. And no, not a little of their powers either...

This is really not hard concept for anyone to grasp. No need to overcomplicate it.

Edit: In fact... I think it should stay current version. If a character is depowered, and a person doesn't make specifications, they're setting it up for that depowered character to fight. A depowered character is, afterall, still the character. May be stupid for debates, yes, but we shouldn't have to spoonfeed this stuff.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 24, 2007)

EvilMoogle said:


> Well, if you want to get technical, when last seen Magneto was empowered by the Collective and had all the powers of depowered mutants



Though I know you did that purely in jest, I would like to point out that it was Xorn and that Eric didn't keep all the Collective powers since Robby chucked them into the sun


----------



## Ippy (Jul 24, 2007)

Red said:


> I so strongly disagree with this. and it contradicts


Not really.

In terms of the ki/chakra/etc... thing, different universes all have some source of their power to compare to other universes with, thus why it's assumed that they are all the same thing for the sake of simplicity.

In the case of Bastard!!, Hagiwara makes the clear distinction for the soul.  There are three sources of power in the series, the physical body, the spiritual body, and the soul or ideal body.

Spirits and souls are _not_ the same thing.  Spirits can be described as the bridge that interconnects the physical body to the other planes of existence, or souls depending on who you ask, but they _aren't_ souls themselves(this actually applies to certain aspects of modern theology as well).

There is no distinction made nor mention of souls in DBZ.

Since the soul exists on a _completely different plane of existence_, it's not "roughly the same thing" as a spirit, thus it would simply be erroneous to consider them such.


----------



## Red (Jul 24, 2007)

Haterade said:


> Not really.
> 
> In terms of the ki/chakra/etc... thing, different universes all have some source of their power to compare to other universes with, thus why it's assumed that they are all the same thing for the sake of simplicity.
> 
> ...



It's largely assumed that souls are indestructible immortal aspects of human existence, so the problem does not lie there.

The problem lies in the destructibility of the spirit and how to differentiate souls from spirit since many myths and literature interchange them.

While there are no mention of souls in dbz there are mentions of demons and spirits and gods. To classify them as to not being able to hurt spirits because of the way they interact with physical realm (much akin to how the Roman and Greek gods interacted with their human counter parts) is faulty thinking since they [DBZ spirits and co] are classified as ethereal entities.

I'm a stickler on this subject because of my Breserk vs DBZ thread. I want to know the general consensus of people and their views on this.

But one thing that I'm not arguing is the immortality of souls. Hell the strongest entity to literature to date, (the Neo-Christian god) has never been cited wiping out the existence of a soul.


----------



## Ippy (Jul 24, 2007)

Red said:


> It's largely assumed that souls are indestructible immortal aspects of human existence, so the problem does not lie there.


I'm not that far in Bastard!! yet, but from what I've heard from people that have already read the entire series, it *is* possible to destroy souls in Bastard!!.

It's just notoriously difficult.

The reason that the distinction should be made when concerning Bastard!! is because the most powerful characters in the series can regenerate their physical, spiritual, and ideal/soul bodies, as long as at least _one_ atom from _one_ of those different bodies still exists.  In order to actually kill Dark Schneider(among others) with finality, you would have to destroy all three _at the same time_.

But if he is facing a character from another series, and in that series there is no mention of souls, let alone actually being able to attack them, guess what?



Red said:


> The problem lies in the destructibility of the spirit and how to differentiate souls from spirit since many myths and literature interchange them.


Yes, there is quite some difference of opinion.

But, my main point was the distinction between the two types of metaphysical bodies in the Bastard!! universe itself, which is clear cut.



Red said:


> While there are no mention of souls in dbz there are mentions of demons and spirits and gods. To classify them as to not being able to hurt spirits because of the way they interact with physical realm (much akin to how the Roman and Greek gods interacted with their human counter parts) is faulty thinking since they [DBZ spirits and co] are classified as ethereal entities.


I wasn't arguing this at all.

I was arguing that since there has been no mention of souls in DBZ, it's characters should not be able to attack, let alone actually destroy, souls.

Souls and spirits are ethereal bodies, yes.  But they are _not_ the same thing.  The exist on two different planes of existence.

And I'm aware that it is possible for them to hurt spirits, or else Goku would never have warned Vegeta about getting killed by Buu and being erased from existence, since he was already dead and in spirit form.

I never argued that DBZ characters couldn't harm spirits.


----------



## Red (Jul 24, 2007)

It must be my lack of sleep, I did mean that your arguing or anything and it seems that with the exception of certain bastard characters destroying a soul is impossible right?

My own question is, is it safe to assume the DBZ characters can deal damage to spirits (not souls)?


----------



## Ippy (Jul 24, 2007)

Yes, I do believe it's possible... unless someone wants to argue that the Buu Saga wasn't canon.


----------



## Segan (Jul 24, 2007)

What is the difference between a soul and a spirit? Did I miss something? o_0

Edit: Oh right, there's something I would like to get a clarification on. Some of the fights, that have more or less comparable opponents, often get decided by knowledge or lack thereof of the opponent's powers and abilities.
So, for the purpose of the OBD, do the characters have full knowledge of their opponents capabilities? For example, Person A could have a natural advantage in battle against Person B, since A possesses abilities that are extremely deadly if you don't know about them and therefore have no way of countering it. But if B knows all about A, the advantage A had, could be cancelled out since B has the resources to counter A's abilities.


----------



## Spy_Smasher (Jul 24, 2007)

This is a good idea. If we can agree upon a baseline battle then it can save a deal of typing and questions, leaving open the possibility of more detailed battles to the thread starters. 

My advice about the whole inherent powers thing (ki, chakra, nen, etc.) is _not_ to include it in the sticky unless we can come up with a simple rule. If it's a complicated issue, leave it in the hands of the OP and the debaters. The less controversial the sticky is, the more useful it will be.

As far as which version of the character to be used, my preference would be to use the current/last living version of the character _operating at peak effectiveness_ (ie. discounting anomolous low showings), unless that version has the use of powers understood to be temporary. In this case, the strongest version not using temporary powers should be used. I would think that this is the _likeliest intention _when a version is not specified (for the simple reason that more people are likely to be familiar with the current version then older ones).

I would think though that the sticky should begin with an exhortation to thread starters to be as detailed as possible. Something along the lines of:

"Whenever possible, battle descriptions should be detailed, including:

1. What versions of the characters are being used.
2. The location of the battlefield and any special conditions thereof.
3. Whether the combatants are bloodlusted and/or in character.
4. The interaction of any inherent characteristics/powers/vulnerabilities available to one character but not the other (ie. chakra, reatsu, ki) for the purpose of this battle.
5. Any further specific restrictions for the purpose of this battle.

When these items are not specified, the following will be assumed:"


----------



## Ippy (Jul 24, 2007)

Segan said:


> What is the difference between a soul and a spirit? Did I miss something? o_0


I've explained it multiple times in this thread. :S



Segan said:


> Edit: Oh right, there's something I would like to get a clarification on. Some of the fights, that have more or less comparable opponents, often get decided by knowledge or lack thereof of the opponent's powers and abilities.
> So, for the purpose of the OBD, do the characters have full knowledge of their opponents capabilities? For example, Person A could have a natural advantage in battle against Person B, since A possesses abilities that are extremely deadly if you don't know about them and therefore have no way of countering it. But if B knows all about A, the advantage A had, could be cancelled out since B has the resources to counter A's abilities.


Hmm..... good question.... 

The safe assumption would be that unless it is otherwise stated by the OP, it should be assumed that the characters involved have no knowledge of each other's abilities.

I'll add this as well.



Spy_Smasher said:


> This is a good idea. If we can agree upon a baseline battle then it can save a deal of typing and questions, leaving open the possibility of more detailed battles to the thread starters.


Yup, that's the whole reason I started this thread up.



Spy_Smasher said:


> My advice about the whole inherent powers thing (ki, chakra, nen, etc.) is _not_ to include it in the sticky unless we can come up with a simple rule. If it's a complicated issue, leave it in the hands of the OP and the debaters. The less controversial the sticky is, the more useful it will be.


Actually, the rule itself is simple.  It's just that the examples of exceptions I gave make the rule seem more tl;dr than it actually is.



Spy_Smasher said:


> As far as which version of the character to be used, my preference would be to use the current/last living version of the character _operating at peak effectiveness_ (ie. discounting anomolous low showings), unless that version has the use of powers understood to be temporary. In this case, the strongest version not using temporary powers should be used. I would think that this is the _likeliest intention _when a version is not specified (for the simple reason that more people are likely to be familiar with the current version then older ones).
> 
> I would think though that the sticky should begin with an exhortation to thread starters to be as detailed as possible. Something along the lines of:
> 
> ...


Good write up.  I'll add it.


----------



## PDQ (Jul 29, 2007)

Rather than simply making assumptions why don't we just have people do multiconditional posts containing relevant assumptions they make on a case by case basis like this:
Thread:  Aquaman vs. Namor(Note I've never actually read anything with either so I'm just making something up)
Post:
Assuming it's Namor at X time against Aquaman at Y time(choosing X and Y so it's not just a ridiculous overkill)
On Land:  Namor
In the Sea:  Aquaman

It's more complicated but in general avoids placing silly restrictions on fights just because the OP didn't list it and people can pick and choose which one is most worth while arguing(over time the two characters should asymptotically approach the closest two in power).  Why render a thread useless due to the assumptions giving one side a ridiculous advantage just because of one person's negligence?

Furthermore, this would provide flexibility as time progresses and the characters change.  If we followed a principle of the "current character", over the course of a month, the two assumed characters could change largely rendering an argument from the previous post useless.

Finally, I think it'd be a good idea to have multiple conditions within a thread because I've seen people mention things like "this has been done before".  Having three "Goku vs. Superman" threads because one person wants it on the moon, another wants SSJ1 max, and another wants a regular battle would annoy people.


----------



## Ippy (Jul 29, 2007)

PDQ said:


> Rather than simply making assumptions why don't we just have people do multiconditional posts containing relevant assumptions they make on a case by case basis like this:
> Thread:  Aquaman vs. Namor(Note I've never actually read anything with either so I'm just making something up)
> Post:
> Assuming it's Namor at X time against Aquaman at Y time(choosing X and Y so it's not just a ridiculous overkill)
> ...


.....

Not a bad idea.



PDQ said:


> Why render a thread useless due to the assumptions giving one side a ridiculous advantage just because of one person's negligence?


I believe that it's a deterrent from making ambiguous fights.

It's a "punishment" if you will.


PDQ said:


> Furthermore, this would provide flexibility as time progresses and the characters change.  If we followed a principle of the "current character", over the course of a month, the two assumed characters could change largely rendering an argument from the previous post useless.


Good point.

I'll make the necessary changes to the OP, although your post mostly just addresses the "Powers Allowed" issue.


----------



## PDQ (Jul 30, 2007)

Haterade said:


> I believe that it's a deterrent from making ambiguous fights.
> 
> It's a "punishment" if you will.



But you're not really punishing just the OP, you're punishing everyone who wants to post about the two people.


----------



## Ippy (Jul 30, 2007)

Thus, why I changed the OP.


----------



## Ippy (Aug 22, 2007)

I changed the OP to allow for Bastard!! characters with Dispel Bounds to be destroyed by only physical and spiritual attacks, and not the whole "physical/spiritual/soul at the same time" thing, for fairness.

They're tough enough to beat already.


----------



## Banhammer (Aug 22, 2007)

I agree pretty much with everything stated on this except the ability overlap. To some characters, that is a specific power, a specific technique desined specifically against other characters. I feel like taking that away from bleach or potter characters is like taking ftl speed from flash, or omniresistance from supes and juggs.
Plus, spiritless characters like f.e. sasori's pupets have shown chakra abilities.


----------



## Ippy (Aug 22, 2007)

TheFourthNin said:


> I agree pretty much with everything stated on this except the ability overlap. To some characters, that is a specific power, a specific technique desined specifically against other characters. I feel like taking that away from bleach or potter characters is like taking ftl speed from flash, or omniresistance from supes and juggs.
> Plus, spiritless characters like f.e. sasori's pupets have shown chakra abilities.


It's because, without some sort of middle ground, there would hardly be any debating going on at all.

Imagine throwing someone against a Bleach character, who are fast enough to escape from sight already, but while also allowing for their natural invisibility(to ppl with low reiatsu) to still be in effect?

And where have I said anything about taking FTL speed from The Flash, and omniresistance from Supes and Juggs?

I also don't know the relevance of your last point about Sasori.


----------



## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Sep 3, 2007)

I have a question about canon, more specifically about s-CRY-ed. I was talking about this in a thread the other day and it is one of those cases where the anime did come first, but it only preceded the manga by a few months and they were even written by the same guy. They can't both be canon because the 2 are *completely* different. So for the OBD, which one should be default canon?


----------



## Parallax (Sep 4, 2007)

^You bring up a good point.  The same goes with Trigun to a certain degree.  I guess we could just specify which version we are using.  

Ex. Legato Vs. Ace(just go with it)

The OP has a duty to inform which version he is using whether it is the manga or anime version, since at times both are very different.


----------



## lambda (Sep 4, 2007)

No default canon, you simply treat them as two separate universes, like 616 Marvel and Ultimate Marvel.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Sep 4, 2007)

Kazuma the Shell Bullet said:


> I have a question about canon, more specifically about s-CRY-ed. I was talking about this in a thread the other day and it is one of those cases where the anime did come first, but it only preceded the manga by a few months and they were even written by the same guy. They can't both be canon because the 2 are *completely* different. So for the OBD, which one should be default canon?



For cases like this, I generally assume the more popular/known version unless otherwise stated. For S-CRY-ed, I know very few people who are decently familiar with the manga version of it, but there are a bunch of people who have seen the anime so I would assume the anime versions unless otherwise stated. This is mainly just due to statistical reasons though


----------



## Ippy (Sep 4, 2007)

Yeah, that's a special case.

If an OP wants to use characters from Scryed, they should be specific in what version of the characters they're going to use.


----------



## Ippy (Sep 9, 2007)

I have a question.

What do people think about CIS?

I personally think it should be on unless otherwise stated, but some may disagree.


----------



## Spy_Smasher (Sep 10, 2007)

^That's a tough one. What is the ODB default? What do we usually do? I think we _usually_ debate as if CIS is _off._


----------



## Dio Brando (Sep 10, 2007)

The Goddamn Batman said:


> I have a question.
> 
> What do people think about CIS?
> 
> I personally think it should be on unless otherwise stated, but some may disagree.



I personally think that CIS can make things more interesting. Sometimes though, there simply wouldn't be a fight at all. 

I like the tournament rule: In character, but out to win.


----------



## Ippy (Sep 10, 2007)

*@S_S:* Thing is, in my experience, I've noticed that most people debate as if CIS is _on_.

*@Implosion:* Yeah, I like that.


----------



## Id (Oct 3, 2007)

Rules within the tournament?not touching that. It limits creativity, Its creativity that keeps tournaments so interesting. 

Just limit the amount of tournaments being held at once. Imagine 2 or 3 tournaments held at once.


----------



## Vandal Savage (Oct 3, 2007)

More useful information. 

As far as CIS goes I think it should be left off. It seems like most of the threads I have read make it seem like there is no place for it.

Of course I haven't gotten into the more heated discussions so I could be wrong. :sweat


----------



## Ippy (Oct 3, 2007)

@Id: I conceded the point on tournaments in the post right after the one you used to get here...

@Jetstorm: It depends.

I always see stuff like "And when does so and so actually do that?", which is in CIS' domain...


----------



## Darklyre (Oct 3, 2007)

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that CIS should be on and PIS off. CIS off would make it so most characters act completely opposite of what they normally do, and would turn it into a fight based simply on skillsets as opposed to characters.


----------



## Ippy (Oct 14, 2007)

What do people suggest?


----------



## Tash (Oct 14, 2007)

I agree with Keollyn to many people cry speedblitz without knowing the starting distance in the first place. And what about cross verse terms? For example: Samurai Jack is said to cut through Adamantium in his verse, so can he cut wolverine? Jio can absorb darkness in his verse, can he absorb Blackbeard? Wolverine has shown immunity to a number of poisons, is he immune to a poison he has never met with before?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Oct 14, 2007)

Keollyn said:


> There needs to be a starting distance for *settings*. I'm not sure of the recommended distance, but I just thought I bring it up.



I would say that for character-vs-character debates initial distance should be 20 paces unless otherwise specified.  This is traditional of classic duels (step ten paces, turn, and fire!) and makes as much sense as anything else.


----------



## Ippy (Oct 15, 2007)

Swajio said:


> I agree with Keollyn to many people cry speedblitz without knowing the starting distance in the first place. And what about cross verse terms? For example: Samurai Jack is said to cut through Adamantium in his verse, so can he cut wolverine? Jio can absorb darkness in his verse, can he absorb Blackbeard? Wolverine has shown immunity to a number of poisons, is he immune to a poison he has never met with before?


1. He should be able to.

2. I believe they meant darkness in someone's heart.

3. He should be able to.



EvilMoogle said:


> I would say that for character-vs-character debates initial distance should be 20 paces unless otherwise specified.  This is traditional of classic duels (step ten paces, turn, and fire!) and makes as much sense as anything else.


As long as no one objects, I'll make it 20 paces.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Oct 22, 2007)

Assumption: Bullets >> Narutoverse ninjas
Assumption: Any comic-book character > Narutoverse ninjas


----------



## Red (Oct 22, 2007)

DO robots have chi?


----------



## Segan (Oct 22, 2007)

Usually no. As far as I'm aware, chi/ki is is limited to living beings, or beings with living parts.


----------



## Neo-jplaya (Dec 10, 2007)

who are the banned fighters? I think I got closed because I used one.


----------



## Neo-jplaya (Dec 11, 2007)

Seraph said:


> ....  What?


yeah, weren't there banned people? like the 'fros?


----------



## Darklyre (Dec 11, 2007)

Seraph said:


> 1. He should be able to.



I'd make an argument against this one. Even for Marvel, 616 adamantium is much stronger than Ultimate adamantium, and both of those are arguably stronger than WH40K adamantium. I'd say you'd need to take adamantium arguments on a verse by verse basis.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Dec 11, 2007)

Darklyre said:


> I'd make an argument against this one. Even for Marvel, 616 adamantium is much stronger than Ultimate adamantium, and both of those are arguably stronger than WH40K adamantium. I'd say you'd need to take adamantium arguments on a verse by verse basis.



Yeah, in Forgotten Realms adamantium is a metal that can be shaped and forged by a normal-strength-human blacksmith with a hammer (for the purists, adamantium is the metal, adamantite is the alloy).

Just because something's called "adamantium" doesn't give us a solid indication of it's strength.  616 True Adamantium has stood up undamaged to attacks that would vaporize FR adamantium.


----------



## Ippy (Dec 11, 2007)

I concede that then.


----------



## Banhammer (Feb 3, 2008)

Naruto is almost considered to be magic for OBD purposes


----------



## peppy (Mar 4, 2008)

considered magic, how so? and EVILMOOGLE... your pics rock!


----------



## Grandmaster Kane (Mar 4, 2008)

EvilMoogle said:


> Yeah, in Forgotten Realms adamantium is a metal that can be shaped and forged by a normal-strength-human blacksmith with a hammer (for the purists, adamantium is the metal, adamantite is the alloy).
> 
> Just because something's called "adamantium" doesn't give us a solid indication of it's strength.  616 True Adamantium has stood up undamaged to attacks that would vaporize FR adamantium.




I counter with his

616 adamantium can also be shaped by regular humans but like Fr adamantium once it cools it is for the most part unbreakable

but what sets Fr adamantium apart is it's magical properties


----------



## EvilMoogle (Mar 4, 2008)

Xanxus said:


> I counter with his
> 
> 616 adamantium can also be shaped by regular humans but like Fr adamantium once it cools it is for the most part unbreakable
> 
> but what sets Fr adamantium apart is it's magical properties



Er, if I fashion a suit of armor out of of Marvel True Adamantium, it takes incomprehensible levels of strength to warp it with pure force.

If I fashion a suit of armor out of FR Adamantium, the average person can still dent it up with a hammer.

They're clearly different substances.


----------



## Grandmaster Kane (Mar 4, 2008)

EvilMoogle said:


> Er, if I fashion a suit of armor out of of Marvel True Adamantium, it takes incomprehensible levels of strength to warp it with pure force.
> 
> If I fashion a suit of armor out of FR Adamantium, the average person can still dent it up with a hammer.
> 
> They're clearly different substances.



I call bs

Can you name some instances that has happened?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Mar 4, 2008)

Xanxus said:


> I call bs
> 
> Can you name some instances that has happened?



Sure, Dark Dwarves forge adamantium weapons and armor without the use of magic in the same fashion that they forge any other equipment.  A block of adamantium ore is heated, hammered into shape, and quenched.

There are no special skill checks or requirements for a person to forge adamantium in D&D.  If you can smith iron you can smith adamantium (though adamantium is more difficult skill-check wise).

This is not true of how Marvel adamantium is worked.  Heating it has no effect on the malleability of the item.  Once it is created there's a very brief window for it to be shaped before it is fixed in its shape.


----------



## Grandmaster Kane (Mar 4, 2008)

EvilMoogle said:


> Sure, Dark Dwarves forge adamantium weapons and armor without the use of magic in the same fashion that they forge any other equipment.  A block of adamantium ore is heated, hammered into shape, and quenched.
> 
> There are no special skill checks or requirements for a person to forge adamantium in D&D.  If you can smith iron you can smith adamantium (though adamantium is more difficult skill-check wise).
> 
> This is not true of how Marvel adamantium is worked.  Heating it has no effect on the malleability of the item.  Once it is created there's a very brief window for it to be shaped before it is fixed in its shape.



Dude

you cant use game mechanics you have to go by the novels.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Mar 4, 2008)

Xanxus said:


> Dude
> 
> you cant use game mechanics you have to go by the novels.



Dude, the novels are _based on_ the game rules.

What more do you want?  You can dig up a chunk of adamantium and hammer it into the shape you want.  This is distinctly different from how it works in Marvel, where adamantium is an alloy of iron.

But if you want:



			
				Starless Night said:
			
		

> [Artemis Entreri] came in a straightforward lunge again, spun about to the left as if to continue with a spinning overhand chop, then reversed his grip on the weapon, pivoted back to the right, and heaved the sword as though it were a spear.
> 
> The weapon's tip dove hungrily between the surprised female's breasts, sparking as it _*sliced through the fine drow armor*_.



This is a man that is fairly typical human strength (peak human at best) with a moderately enchanted sword _thrown_ and it slices neatly through the armor.

Compare this to Marvel's adamantium.  Thor going all out whaling on true adamantium manages to dent it with his hammer.

So either Entreri's sword (the old green-glowing one, not the upgraded "smoke" one) is exponentially more powerful than Mjolnir (especially once you adjust for the strength difference between Thor and Entreri), or there's significantly less durability in FR Adamantium.


----------



## Grandmaster Kane (Mar 4, 2008)

EvilMoogle said:


> Dude, the novels are _based on_ the game rules.
> 
> What more do you want?  You can dig up a chunk of adamantium and hammer it into the shape you want.  This is distinctly different from how it works in Marvel, where adamantium is an alloy of iron.
> 
> ...



...

DAMN YOU SALVATORE!!!!!!


----------



## Dark Evangel (Apr 27, 2008)

Why should characters be completely out of character?


----------



## Zetta (Apr 27, 2008)

Xanxus said:


> ...
> 
> DAMN YOU SALVATORE!!!!!!



Don't be dissin' the salvatore.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Apr 27, 2008)

Dark Evangel said:


> Why should characters be completely out of character?




The main argument was that if a character isn't bloodlusted so many of the "hero" types wouldn't fight at all.  So either you need to provide for motivations for how/why they're fighting, or just ignore characterization to allow them to fight.


----------



## The Sentry (Apr 27, 2008)

Say if Reed Richards says The Thing can lift 100 tons but it was never seen on panel...is it canon, and can we use that quote as proof of his strength?


----------



## EvilMoogle (Apr 27, 2008)

The Sentry said:


> Say if Reed Richards says The Thing can lift 100 tons but it was never seen on panel...is it canon, and can we use that quote as proof of his strength?



Can you use it?  Sure.  Will people accept it?  That depends on how 
much of an authority Reed Richards is seen on the Thing's strength / what opportunities he had to observe this strength / and how likely it is that Reed would be lying or exaggerating this strength given the situation.

There would also be questions of how Thing was lifting it (strength classifications are using a military press, there are FAR more efficient means of lifting which is how they get away with saying Spider-man is class-15 and show him lifting things that weigh far in excess of 15 tons.).


----------



## Dark Evangel (May 4, 2008)

In a verse vs. verse does the OBD assume that everyone is at their strongest and everything will be allowed to be used or just current vs. current?


----------



## Ippy (May 4, 2008)

Dark Evangel said:


> In a verse vs. verse does the OBD assume that everyone is at their strongest and everything will be allowed to be used or just current vs. current?


Like always, it depends on the OP, but if they don't specify, it's actually multi-conditional, where posters can pick and choose which versions of the characters involved would produce the best debate.


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## Dark Evangel (Jul 17, 2008)

What is SMvsFL?


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## ~Avant~ (Sep 15, 2008)

SMvsFL is Spider-man vs. Fire Lord. Basically Spider was able to beat someone so vastly more powerful, that the feat is pretty much a red-herring because he's never displayed the strengh/ability neccessary to actually beat Fire Lord ever before or ever after


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## Ippy (Jan 4, 2009)

Does this need any updates at all?

I don't know if OBD trends have changed or not.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 4, 2009)

I would recommend reinstituting the basic knowledge rule, but that's just me


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## Ippy (Jan 4, 2009)

What changes would you make?


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## Cerō2 (Jan 13, 2009)

If both CIS and Bloodlust is on, which one takes more priority?


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## Ippy (Jan 13, 2009)

They work in conjunction.

Bloodlust = they're going for the kill.  It's just not to be confused with a berserker rage.


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## Cerō2 (Jan 13, 2009)

What if they don't kill ?


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## Ippy (Jan 13, 2009)

bloodlust would override that


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## Endless Mike (Jan 13, 2009)

The MMAthematician said:


> What changes would you make?



Um, like I said: Reinstituting the basic knowledge rule

Characters should get basic knowledge about each other by default for a fight

Things that are widely known in each universe count as basic knowledge

So it's basic knowledge that Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite, but not that he is Clark Kent


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## Ippy (Jan 13, 2009)

i can buy that.

any takers?


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## Gig (Jan 13, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, like I said: Reinstituting the basic knowledge rule
> 
> Characters should get basic knowledge about each other by default for a fight
> 
> ...


Yeah I can accept this since its only logical to assume they know who there going to be fighting


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## Red (Jan 13, 2009)

The MMAthematician said:


> i can buy that.
> 
> any takers?


I'm up for it as long as we define "Basic Knowledge" better.


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## Stroev (Jan 13, 2009)

What about specific versions of characters i.e. SuperBoy Prime and whatnot? 

Since it's just another version of Superman, would we still use the whole "kryptonite weakness" for any version, or will there be specifics for specific versions?


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jan 13, 2009)

Well, Superboy/man-Prime isn't affected by any main DC universe kryptonite since he comes from an entirely different universe like all the other versions of Supes, so the "kryptonite can harm/kill Superman" rule should only apply to New Earth Superman.


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## Stroev (Jan 24, 2009)

Don't wanna waste time going through ten pages.

In videogames, when do we use cutscenes and gamplay as actual feats(Sora lightspeed, Pok'edex fluff, etc.)? 

I'm still unclear as to what the final verdict is.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 24, 2009)

Some things involving gameplay are arguable to be considered feats. Like Sephiroth's Supernova, or the damage shown by the summons in Golden Sun.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 25, 2009)

Game mechanics are basically off limits

Else things like pun-pun from Dungeons and Dragons are canon


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## Art of Run (Apr 12, 2009)

sup bros, what's going on in this thread.


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## Omnirix (Jun 12, 2009)

Guys just wondering can we override the assumption of Dying Will=Haki=Chakra=Reiatsu type of rule unless stated otherwise by the OP of a thread? Because I personally don't see any liability in that type of thing.
P.S Forgive me if this has already been done b4 and this comment doesn't fit the topic of this thread.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 12, 2009)

You can override pretty much anything, except for forum wide rules like flaming, posting porn, etc.


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## Havoc (Jun 12, 2009)

Shadow Replication 1480 said:


> Well, Superboy/man-Prime isn't affected by any main DC universe kryptonite since he comes from an entirely different universe like all the other versions of Supes, so the "kryptonite can harm/kill Superman" rule should only apply to New Earth Superman.


Earth-2 Supes is affected by Kryptonite too, except he's less vulnerable.


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## Omnirix (Jul 14, 2009)

I got another question guys. Why can't the concept of Zanpaktou in Bleach be counted as "soulfuck"? I mean the literal translation of Zanpaktou is soul cutter anyway. If the Naruto Dead Reaper seal jutsu can be counted as soulfuck, why can't Zanpaktou be counted?


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## Omega Level (Jul 14, 2009)

Superman Prime has been affected by Kryptonite in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 worlds.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 15, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Superman Prime has been affected by Kryptonite in Final Crisis: Legion of 3 worlds.



That was because Element Lad transmuted it to be equal to Kryptonite from his home universe


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## Magellan (Jul 15, 2009)

Omnirix said:


> I got another question guys. Why can't the concept of Zanpaktou in Bleach be counted as "soulfuck"? I mean the literal translation of Zanpaktou is soul cutter anyway. If the Naruto Dead Reaper seal jutsu can be counted as soulfuck, why can't Zanpaktou be counted?



Because they never showed to soul fuck anybody. Its like a misonomer/or hyperbole. I can say my punch is a Galaxy destroyer. But its an.A) Misonomer- because its a really good hard fast punch. B) Hyperbole cause I don't have that power.


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## Omnirix (Aug 26, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Game mechanics are basically off limits
> 
> Else things like pun-pun from Dungeons and Dragons are canon



No offense but that's just stupid imo. Then we won't know how truly powerful Kingdom Hearts or Pokemon really is because most of their fighting is based on game mechanics.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Aug 26, 2009)

Omnirix said:


> No offense but that's just stupid imo. Then we won't know how truly powerful Kingdom Hearts or Pokemon really is because most of their fighting is based on game mechanics.



Lol @ Pokemon's strength being based on game mechaincs. No, they should not be allowed else you have the rulers of time and space getting stuffed in Pokeballs. Ask yourself how believable that is.


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## Ulti (Aug 27, 2009)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Lol @ Pokemon's strength being based on game mechaincs. No, they should not be allowed else you have the rulers of time and space getting stuffed in Pokeballs. Ask yourself how believable that is.



Ussop


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## Platinum (Sep 12, 2009)

When we equalize speed should we bring the slower character up to the level of the faster one or the other way around?

I still see occasional confusion on this by members.


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## Ippy (Sep 12, 2009)

Up to the OP.


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## Omnirix (Nov 6, 2009)

Do we assume that Harribel is weaker than Grimmjow or Nnoitra?


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## Lucaniel (Nov 6, 2009)

Of course we don't, wtf?


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## kensfield (Nov 21, 2009)

Ultimecia said:


>



lol
Msg too short


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## Omnirix (Dec 2, 2009)

Guys, just wondering, to what extend should be use haki to negate intangibility? I mean should we use it on  the likes of Lulubell's(DGM) intangibility, Negi's(Negima) intangibility? But it doesn't work on Tyki Mikk(DGM) and Shadowcat(Marvel) and Kenshiro(Fist of the North Star)?


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## Platinum (Dec 3, 2009)

I don't think we know enough about Haki to make that call yet.


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## Lucaniel (Dec 3, 2009)

I think it would work on elemental intangibility, like Lunagaganta, Sloth or Lightning God Negi, but not Kitty and the like, since their intangibility cannot be equalized to logias.


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## Saitou Hajime (Dec 15, 2010)

Couple of questions:

1. Bloodlust - does this assume that a character opens up with his strongest attacks even if he doesn't have to, or does it allow for more basic attacks if that's all that is required?

ex. Goku vs Mr Satan. Does Goku throw a Genki Dama, or can he just punch him?

2. Powers/Character Version Allowed

Does this rule imply that certain abilities dependent on certain compatibilities have such restrictions removed for the purpose of the fight?

ex. Tessaiga. Can Bakuryuha deflect non-youki attacks? Is youketsu cutting or youki absorption applicable to those who have no youki?


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## EvilMoogle (Dec 15, 2010)

Bloodlust means simply that the charcter is not holding back,  he's still welcome to fight in whatever manner he thinks is best.

It's mostly just to keep "good guys" from having to deal with "Spider-man would never full out punch a 6-year-old" issues.

I'm not sure what you're asking with the second question but generally the person first posting the thread can set restrictions, special conditions, or an alternate version of the character if they want (generally in the favor of balancing a match)


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Jun 1, 2011)

How much weapons are they assumed allowed? I would probably say as much as they can get their hands on and physically carry to the battlefeild, except beings which are baisically made of tech, such as daleks.


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## blademan9999 (Jun 19, 2011)

What about this, a sword which can cut through everything vs a indestructible shield.
Or and unstoppable force vs an immovable object.

Character A can teleport so well they can never be tele blocked.
Character B has an invincible tele block.

These are problems.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 19, 2011)

That's obviously why we go by feats and evidence instead of hyperbole claims and no - limits fallacies


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## blademan9999 (Jun 20, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> That's obviously why we go by feats and evidence instead of hyperbole claims and no - limits fallacies



What if both characters are from different verse and the abilities are both stated to be true by the respective authors.


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## Amorozov (Jun 20, 2011)

blademan9999 said:


> What if both characters are from different verse and the abilities are both stated to be true by the respective authors.



Then it is basically infinite vs infinite or omnipotent vs omnipotent. That kind of threads are banned in the OBD, I believe. Because they are always stalemates or inconclusive matches. That is, I believe, why feats are preferred in the Outskirts Battledome, rather than hyperbolic- or even author statements.
Of course in-game statements matter to some extint, but for example when two characters are put to fight with the other having an actual feat of busting a planet and the other has only his own/someone elses statement about him being capable of accomplishing the same feat, I think that the one with the actual feat should be preferred in the OBD and his feat put above the possibly hyperbolic statement! This must be looked case-by-case of course, though.

Even author statements aren't perhaps so reliable: I don't know if you are familiar to R.A.Salvatore's books, but in an interview he was asked who would win in a fight, Drizzt or Elminster, and he replyed that if he was writing it, Drizzt would win. In the OBD, however, Drizzt would get destroyed against Elminster in less than a microsecond. If the author says that his character is capable of destroying a planet, that should count though.


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## Banhammer (Jan 15, 2012)

No posts. Great bumps


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## cacomixl (Feb 17, 2012)

Suppose a character with a soul attack is pitted against a regular vampire from the Underworld movie series.

or

Suppose a character with a holy attack is pitted against that same vampire.

Which attack is assumed to work?

As I understand it, they sidestep the whole soul issue in that series. From that, you may be able to infer that even the humans in that verse lack souls. Of course, it would be lame to say humans from that verse are immune to soul attacks due to that presumed lack, but what of the vampires? Usually, of course, vampires are explicitly stated to be soulless. When a series does not broach the subject at all, what do you assume for the purpose of a forum battle? (Only ostensibly for this purpose as I doubt this specific issue would often come up)

...

I'm inclined to think that neither attack would work--the vamp implicitly gets immunities common to the archetype but does not get weaknesses.


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## You unwashed virgin turd (Jun 29, 2012)

Can we assume the current OBD is full of nothing but dumb cunts?


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## Im The Evil Mastermind (Jun 29, 2012)

That sounds like a fair assumption.


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## You unwashed virgin turd (Jun 29, 2012)

As fair as the mods being complete ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


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## Barioth (Jun 30, 2012)

Outskirts Battledome is questionable-omnipotent: It holds infinite knowledge, canon, fact, opinion and all the goods stuff. 

And if givens: myopia is absolute.


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## Ice (Jun 30, 2012)

Mods will ban anyone they dislike. A popular assumption around here.


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## Barioth (Jul 1, 2012)

Toss some oldies I could live with in 2012: 

Suspension of Disbelief: Assuming the way our Real world works within the Author worlds to scale.

Omnipotent in their own fictional Verse: Most likely Universal at OBD verse. Unless further stated.

Destructive Capability =/= Destructive Effect(aka Cause =/= Effect debate): 
Ex: Not being able to survive the impact meteor, but can survive ashes of cloud that are causes by impact.


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## Roman55 (Sep 18, 2012)

Wrong thread.

Go the quick question thread in the Meta.


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## cdghjdchjian (Aug 6, 2013)

Whenever possible, battle descriptions should be detailed, including:

Reactions: Informative 1


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