# BSM naruto vs PS kyuubi



## Psp123789 (Oct 20, 2013)

Location: VoTe
Distance: 100 meters
Mindset: Bloodlusted
Restrictions: None
Conditions: Naruto starts with ma and pa on his shoulders, the Kyuubi starts with PS on.


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## Chad (Oct 20, 2013)

Naruto should win 6/10.

Even though full Kurama should logically be able to output far more energy than current Naruto, the feats prove otherwise.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2013)

Is this for real ? Naruto gets obliterated.

PS Kyuubi can spam shuriken Bijuudamas, he is much bigger and fuckloads durable than BSM Naruto.


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## puma21 (Oct 20, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is this for real ? Naruto gets obliterated.
> 
> PS Kyuubi can spam shuriken Bijuudamas, he is much bigger and fuckloads durable than BSM Naruto.



You're joking right? Who cares if it can spam the shuriken bijuu dama Naruto in bm alone already tanked the Juubi's laser bijuu dama? Perfect susanoo isn't unbreakable Hashirama's hands got through it, a sage art bijuu dama should have no problems even a regular charged bijuu dama should be able to damage it.


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2013)

Naruto wins.

with MA & PA on his shoulder the Susanoo is irrelevant, they can make it vanish with their sound jutsus. 
Of course Naruto can make their jutsus stronger by giving them Kurama's chakra, and as we have learned
with that they should be able to use SM chakra much faster, so even Frog Song shouldn't take much time.

Now, Kurama with Naruto's ability to use clones, and his speed beside the other jutsus should be able
to overcome full Kurama IMO. Although, that's doubt able, sometimes I feel full Kurama is stronger. @.@


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 20, 2013)

puma21 said:


> You're joking right? Who cares if it can spam the shuriken bijuu dama Naruto in bm alone already tanked the Juubi's laser bijuu dama? Perfect susanoo isn't unbreakable Hashirama's hands got through it, a sage art bijuu dama should have no problems even a regular charged bijuu dama should be able to damage it.



Hashirama's Statue is 100x Bigger than Naruto's BM, it is Hashirama's strongest mokuton construct powered up by Sage mode. 

How in the world that can be compared to Naruto'S BSM is beyond me.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama's Statue is 100x Bigger than Naruto's BM, it is Hashirama's strongest mokuton construct powered up by Sage mode.
> 
> How in the world that can be compared to Naruto'S BSM is beyond me.



Well, if Naruto in just Bijuu Mode was able to shrug off a direct hit from the Bijuudama if the Ten-Tails, how does Madara go about damaging Naruto? Especially now that he has Sage Mode enhancements, namely durability, stacked onto his Bijuu Mode.


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## Kai (Oct 21, 2013)

The weakest form of the Juubi aside from Gedo Mazo, sure. Naruto's Bijuu Mode shroud enduring that isn't unbelievable.

Full Kyuubi immersed in Perfect Susano'o not being able to do the same against the weakest form of Juubi aside from Gedo Mazo doesn't appear likely.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Well, if Naruto in just Bijuu Mode was able to shrug off a direct hit from the Bijuudama if the Ten-Tails, how does Madara go about damaging Naruto? Especially now that he has Sage Mode enhancements, namely durability, stacked onto his Bijuu Mode.



Momentarily blocking a bijuu laser at the cost of his tails isn't exactly shrugging off a direct hit. And that was Juubi's shittiest form.

It also doesn't guarantee that he'll be able to do the same against this : another forest Madara matched Budha's gattling punch with those.

another forest
Size of Budha statue for consideration. 
PS Kyuubi took lots of direct hits from that thing.


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 21, 2013)

Once the two Kuramas in Naruto fist bump, I don't see why Kurama wouldn't reach max size. When Minato was transferring his half to Naruto, his avatar DID begin to increase in size.

another forest
It clearly grew 3x larger than Sasuke's Susanoo while the transfer was happening but then reverted back to 50% size. That mostly has to do with the fact that God Tree absorbed the other half's chakra in the previous chapter.

So yeah. Naruto is more than capable of becoming the same size as 100% Kurama right now. Only thing that has been stopping that from happening was that Naruto's original Kurama half got the majority of its chakra absorbed.

But no matters. A Odama Sage Rasengan was grinding through Juubi's Tails without issue. *Perfect Susanoo can't take the BijuuSageMode version of THIS attack*:


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## Azula (Oct 21, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama's Statue is 100x Bigger than Naruto's BM, it is Hashirama's strongest mokuton construct powered up by Sage mode.
> 
> How in the world that can be compared to Naruto'S BSM is beyond me.



Mokuton constructs seem to have less firepower when compared to dense balls of chakra

Hashirama's Sage Myoujinmon Gates landed directly on Obito and yet didn't harm him while a Standard Rasengan drilled a hole in his back

Oodama rasengans stopped Madara's Jukai Koutan

Bijuu dama blew up Hashirama's Mokuryuu and Mokujin

So Hashirama may need gigantic constructs and hit repeatedly to make up for inferior firepower but not Naruto

Dont judge a technique's power by its size


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Momentarily blocking a bijuu laser at the cost of his tails isn't exactly shrugging off a direct hit. And that was Juubi's shittiest form.




Before we continue, I'll ask this. Do you find the Initial Form Jubi's attacks to be weaker than those of Madara & Hashirama?


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## Raiken (Oct 21, 2013)

So Bijuu-Sage Mode KCM2 Naruto w/ Ma and Pa *VS* Perfect Susano'o+100% Kyuubi EMS Madara

This is a close fight, but in the end, I can see Madara coming out on top.
PS 100% Kyuubi is 3 x bigger, layered armour and Susano'o weapons + Bijuu Damas at its disposal.

The only advantage Naruto really has here is the speed and sensing. As well as Ma and Pa, and could Summon all the Boss Summons, to stay back, and come in for openings with big attacks.

BSM Naruto w/ all 4 Boss Summons and Ma and Pa probably makes up for the size, defence and power advantage Madara has.

Very close fight, Madara just about takes in the end.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

PS Kurama barely took damage from a massive exchange of Buddha hands and the subsequent explosion of several dozen of his own bijuudamas.

No, BSM Naruto is not as durable. His cloak was annihilated by Jubito simply dropping him into the ground.

Please tell me how a smaller version of Kurama, without Susano is stronger than a larger version with it?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> PS Kurama barely took damage from a massive exchange of Buddha hands and the subsequent explosion of several dozen of his own bijuudamas.
> 
> No, BSM Naruto is not as durable. His cloak was annihilated by Jubito simply dropping him into the ground.
> 
> Please tell me how a smaller version of Kurama, without Susano is stronger than a larger version with it?


You do realize that was Obito, in full control of the Jyubi, pulling BSM Naruto down from an untold amount of height at full velocity and that Obito is moving at sub-relavistic speeds?

BM Naruto could tank a Bijudama Laser from the Juubi, so how is BSM Naruto weaker/less durable than Kyubi Susano'o Zord?


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> PS Kurama barely took damage from a massive exchange of Buddha hands and the subsequent explosion of several dozen of his own bijuudamas.
> 
> No, BSM Naruto is not as durable. His cloak was annihilated by Jubito simply dropping him into the ground.
> 
> Please tell me how a smaller version of Kurama, without Susano is stronger than a larger version with it?



I'm inclined to agree with this. Sage mode or not, I'm apprehensive to believe that half of Kurama is stronger than a full version of it armed with the superior perfect Susano'o, which alone, was capable of casually destroying mountain ranges in a single slash.



> Obito is moving at sub-relavistic speeds?



Where exactly are you getting this from?


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do realize that was Obito, in full control of the Jyubi, pulling BSM Naruto down from an untold amount of height at full velocity and that Obito is moving at sub-relavistic speeds?
> 
> BM Naruto could tank a Bijudama Laser from the Juubi, so how is BSM Naruto weaker/less durable than Kyubi Susano'o Zord?


Excuse me? He dropped him at freefall speed. Are you suggesting this feat is even in the neighborhood of tanking buddha hands and TBB explosions? 

Are you suggesting 100% Kurama, with PS armor putting his gargantuan tails in front of Bijudama laser wouldn't fucking laugh it off? 

Dude, BSM Naruto has no durability feats on the level of what PS Kurama tanked. Are you aware how large those fists were, or the amount of power that it was exposed to with the combined shots of the statue and exploding bijuudama? 

Please, go back and look at the ensuing explosion that resulted, it not only covers the statue in size, but also Kurama, and they made a fucking valley out of it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Where exactly are you getting this from?


Flutter's blog, Obito when he has the Jubi goes up to Mach 24,000.


DaVizWiz said:


> Excuse me? He dropped him at freefall speed. Are you suggesting this feat is even in the neighborhood of tanking buddha hands and TBB explosions?
> 
> Are you suggesting Kurama, with PS armor putting his gargantuan tails in front of Bijudama laser wouldn't fucking laugh it off?
> 
> ...


I'm suggesting the PS Armor gets stripped off by the Jyubi Bijudama laser. And those fists and such aren't as powerful as a Super Bijudama or the Jyubi Bijudama laser, not even close. 

And I doubt the Renzoku Bijudama barrage even exploded when that clash, we didnt' see the distinct explosions that Bijudama gives.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

> I'm suggesting the PS Armor gets stripped off by the Jyubi Bijudama laser. And those fists and such aren't as powerful as a Super Bijudama or the Jyubi Bijudama laser, not even close.


Those fists trump the Juubi laser casually. Are you actually serious right now? Do you have any idea how large those fist are? A single fist is the size of one of Kurama's TBBs, he was hit by several hundred if not thousands. 



> And I doubt the Renzoku Bijudama barrage even exploded when that clash, we didnt' see the distinct explosions that Bijudama gives.


Dude, the entire area went up in a flash of light. They all exploded within a damaging radius. 

Please look here. 

You don't seem to understand that Buddha Statue Punches and Bijuudama explosions > Juubi laser. This, all irrelevant to the fact that the tails were destroyed anyway- so he actually can't tank the laser, he simply chose to destroy his tails instead of his face.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> Those fists trump the Juubi laser casually. Are you actually serious right now? Do you have any idea how large those fist are?


The fists aren't going to be as powerful as the Jyubi's laser. Not any where close. That thing was plowing through nine mountain busters casually. 


> Dude, the entire area went up in a flash of light. They all exploded within a damaging radius.


No, the entire thing put up a lot of dust and debris, do you see the explosions there? The dome/spheres?


> You don't seem to understand that Buddha Statue Punches and Bijuudama explosions > Juubi laser.


I'm putting more faith in the Jyubi's power than you are apparently if you believe Shinsusenju is more powerful.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 21, 2013)

> The fists aren't going to be as powerful as the Jyubi's laser. Not any where close. That thing was plowing through nine mountain busters casually.


The fuck are you talking about? Madara slashes through two mountains arguably several kilometers in spread range casually, with the movement of one of his swords, he obliterated the landscape all the while. 

Those gatlin fists were moving so fast you couldn't even perceive their shape. They were moving so fast that the force in which they were moving actually protected the body of the statue from PS Sword Bijuddama spree fire. 

Madara's Mokuton Men casually tank the explosions of TBBs, the durability of those arms are godly- and they're all hitting Kurama. 



> No, the entire thing put up a lot of dust and debris, do you see the explosions there? The dome/spheres?


That's a clear massive explosion. Where did the bijuudama go, did they disappear? Did they explode behind both of them? Then why wasn't the power burst larger on the right side instead of the left? They're both caught in the epicenter of that massive explosion. 



> I'm putting more faith in the Jyubi's power than you are apparently if you believe Shinsusenju is more powerful.


You're doing nothing more than fanboying Naruto. The ensuing damage resulting from several dozen exploding Bijuudamas and several hundred if not thousand highly durable Mokuton arms moving at unrelenting speeds is the most absurd tanking feature this manga will ever see.

A BSM Naruto that gets defeated because Jubito drops him into a rock landscape is not someone I believe can hold a candle to 100% Kurama with a PS that slashes two mountains several dozen kilometers in the distance in a single swing for shits and giggles. 

This is no contest, my friend.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I'm inclined to agree with this.


The last line maybe, but I really hope you don't agree that Juubito destroyed naruto's cloak by merely "dropping him" on the ground.  And anyways slamming naruto headfirst into the ground =/= him blocking an attack or similar strength with his tails.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Sage mode or not, I'm apprehensive to believe that half of Kurama is stronger than a full version of it armed with the superior perfect Susano'o, which alone, was capable of casually destroying mountain ranges in a single slash.


Why is it apprehensive to believe that?  100% Kurama has never shown firepower even close to what BM Naruto is capable of, *SM more than* *doubles the size and thus power* of his techniques.



Atlantic Storm said:


> with the superior perfect Susano'o, which alone, was capable of casually destroying mountain ranges in a single slash.


When has PS ever destroyed a mountain range with a casual slash?  The last time I checked the mountain range is still there, they're just a bit shorter than before. "CUT" is the word you are looking for, if the full force of Madara's slash was focused on a single one of those mountains he cut, maybe he'd actually destroy it.

Sure I can see a good case for Kyuusanoo winning (mostly based on hype though), but it's in no way going to be easy when BSM Naruto can pull off super bijuudamas that are *more powerful than the power we've seen at VoTe.*


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

DaVizWiz said:


> The fuck are you talking about? Madara slashes through two mountains casually, with the movement of one of his swords.


And that's far weaker than a Bijudama which atomizes the same sized mountains down to nothing.


> Those gatlin fists were moving so fast you couldn't even perceive their shape. They were moving so fast that the force in which they were moving actually protected the body of the statue from PS Sword Bijuddama spree fire.


Actually it looks like Madara was aiming to blow off the Shinsusenju ten thousand arm back.


> Madara's Mokuton Men casually tank the explosions of TBBs, the durability of those arms are godly- and they're all hitting Kurama.


And Kurama, after PS is stripped off, doesn't suffer any damage despite having to take the blows.


> That's a clear massive explosion. Where did the bijuudama go, did they disappear?


Most likely plowed through and went into orbit. Bijudama have a very distinct explosion.


> You're doing nothing more than fanboying Naruto. The ensuing damage resulting from several dozen exploding Bijuudamas and several hundred if not thousand highly durable Mokuton arms moving at unrelenting speeds is the most absurd tanking feature this manga will ever see.


I'm not fanboying Naruto, you're kind of downplaying him. And for 'highly durable Mokuton arms' they were sure blown apart by the Renzoku Bijudama just by them without exploding.


> A BSM Naruto that gets defeated because Jubito drops him into a rock landscape is not someone I believe can hold a candle to 100% Kurama with a PS that slashes two mountains several dozen kilometers in the distance in a single swing for shits and giggles.
> 
> This is no contest, my friend.


A BSM Naruto is forced out of Biju Mode by Obito, the strongest character barring Hagomoro in the verse. You're conveniently ignoring the massive gap of power between Obito and Hashirama. Hell, it wasn't just the 'freefall', it was the Yin Yang Arms that were grasping Naruto too and the height of the fall (they were hundreds of kilometers in the fucking sky).


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Flutter's blog, Obito when he has the Jubi goes up to Mach 24,000.



So you're using OBD calcs to quantify speed in a manga where it's dubious, at best, that the author drew those panels with any sense of logistical perspective or accuracy in mind?


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## Panther (Oct 21, 2013)

Wait a second.... Am I Reading this right? Are some folks here seriously arguing that Hashi's Buddha's punches are more powerfull than Juubi's laserdama?  


*Spoiler*: __


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> So you're using OBD calcs to quantify speed in a manga where it's dubious, at best, that the author drew those panels with any sense of logistical perspective or accuracy in mind?


Its still better than eyballing it AS. Obito was basically made into the god of the verse, would it REALLY be surprising if he wasn't moving at those speeds?


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

I don't think Hashirama has power that surpasses the Ten-Tails, even in its initial form. That wouldn't make much sense.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't think Hashirama has power that surpasses the Ten-Tails, even in its initial form. That wouldn't make much sense.


Exactly. It took the current 'God' of the Narutoverse whose massively stronger than Hashirama to force Naruto out of Biju Mode when he was in Biju Sage Mode.


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 21, 2013)

BSM COFRS. Enough said.


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## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

And once again, the Naruto wank has gone out of control.

Full Kyuubi is _twice as powerful_ as the one inside Naruto, is _twice as large_ and is most likely more durable (the bottom line is that he is as durable as Naruto's BM).

Madara's Perfect Susano'o has the power and the durability for, alone, contend with BM Naruto.

PS Kyuubi is a fusion of both; do the math.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

I never really thought that the Kyuubi inside Naruto was twice as weak as the one Obito and Madara summoned - but after watching Minato enter the exact same mode as Naruto did with the other half of the Kyuubi's chakra, all of my suspicions died. The Kyuubi that Madara summoned is twice as strong as Naruto's on account of it having both ying and yang chakra. Now add the perfect Susano-o on top of it and you pretty much have another entity equivalent to a bijuu in strength amplifying the strongest bijuu on the battlefield.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> And once again, the Naruto wank has gone out of control.
> 
> Full Kyuubi is _twice as powerful_ as the one inside Naruto, is _twice as large_ and is most likely more durable (the bottom line is that he is as durable as Naruto's BM).


Twice as large = true
Twice as powerful = not necessarily true as it depends on what you mean by powerful
BM Naruto is >>>>> 50% Kurama as SM Naruto has shown to be more than a match for 50% Kurama.
Don't know where you are getting more durable from, but even if so, BM Naruto has the ability to instantly regenerate his entire construct if destroyed, Kurama does not.



blk said:


> Madara's Perfect Susano'o has the power and the durability for, alone, contend with BM Naruto.


true



blk said:


> PS Kyuubi is a fusion of both; do the math.


But this isn't BM Naruto, this is BSM Naruto..... 

In addition to that, you're analysis doesn't take into account Naruto's abilities in addition to just fighting with his avatar like using clones to fire SM Chou oodama FRS and such.

Not that I'd disagree with the overall conclusion that Kyuusanoo would win, but still, it's not wank to say otherwise.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

Basically this is going to come down to whether or not you believe that sage mode alone is enough to increase Naruto and 50% of the Kyuubi's chakra to a point where it eclipses a 100% Kyuubi coated with perfect Susano-o.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> Basically this is going to come down to whether or not you believe that sage mode alone is enough to increase Naruto and 50% of the Kyuubi's chakra to a point where it eclipses a 100% Kyuubi coated with perfect Susano-o.



that make it seem like you believe/presuppose that BM Naruto = 50% Kurama which IMO is undeniably false as SM Naruto was overpowering 50% Kurama, the statement that jink + bijuu >>>> bijuu, and BM Naruto's feats.

So I think a more accurate way of wording it would be, it comes down to whether or not you believe that BM Naruto boosted by sage mode is enough to eclipse 100% Kurama coated with PS.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Full Kyuubi is _twice as powerful_ as the one inside Naruto.




Prove it. 

Kurama at 100% is twice as powerful as his 50% version.

However, Bijuu Mode Naruto is not 50 % Kurama. He's stronger. Much stronger. 



> is _twice as large_




If you compare the scan of Naruto & Sasuke fusion to that of Madara's you'll notice Naruto's Avatar is not noticeably interior in size.



> and is most likely more durable (the bottom line is that he is as durable as Naruto's BM).




Since Naruto & Kurama are different entities, you'll have to prove this as well. Kurama is a living breathing fox, with skin, meat, and bones. Naruto shapes Kurama's _and his own_ Chakra into the form of a fox; it is completely different being all together than Kurama himself. Naruto also uses Sage Mode in conjunction with Bijuu Mode, meaning the Avatar is infused with Natural Energy. If you recall what benefits Sage Mode granted to Base Naruto & Base Kabuto, then maybe you'll realize that equating him to Kurama isn't exactly logical.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Before we continue, I'll ask this. Do you find the Initial Form Jubi's attacks to be weaker than those of Madara & Hashirama?


You mean Juubi's laser attack right ? 

Weaker than a single punch from the statue ? No.
Weaker than a single Shuriken Bijuudama ? Again no.

Are these attacks far behind ? No, they are close, just by looking @ what a single shuriken bijuudama could accomplish, you can understand that there isn't a significant difference in strength, if there is any at all.

When you consider that those attacks can be spammed rapidly ? Yeah, Juubi falls behind.

Everything aside, Full Kurama with Perfect Susano'O armor coating + weapon benefits should be stronger than Naruto's Bijuumode. Its just common sense.



Rocky said:


> I don't think Hashirama has power that surpasses the Ten-Tails, even in its initial form. That wouldn't make much sense.


Why ?


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## Krippy (Oct 21, 2013)

PS Kyuubi rapes. PS Sword bijuudama volley until Naruto runs out of tails to block with and his Kurama avatar is annihilated along with the rest of him.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Krippy said:


> PS Kyuubi rapes. PS Sword bijuudama volley until Naruto runs out of tails to block with and his Kurama avatar is annihilated along with the rest of him.



BSM Naruto rapes.  Rapidfire senpou bijuudama volley until PS is destroyed and 100% Kurama is annihilated.


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## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Twice as large = true
> Twice as powerful = not necessarily true as it depends on what you mean by powerful
> BM Naruto is >>>>> 50% Kurama as SM Naruto has shown to be more than a match for 50% Kurama.
> Don't know where you are getting more durable from, but even if so, BM Naruto has the ability to instantly regenerate his entire construct if destroyed, Kurama does not.



With twice as powerful i mean that he has twice as much power/chakra.
Full Kyuubi might be more durable thanks to his superior chakra quantity.



> But this isn't BM Naruto, this is BSM Naruto.....
> 
> In addition to that, you're analysis doesn't take into account Naruto's abilities in addition to just fighting with his avatar like using clones to fire SM Chou oodama FRS and such.
> 
> Not that I'd disagree with the overall conclusion that Kyuusanoo would win, but still, it's not wank to say otherwise.



Naruto's additional abilities are eclipsed by a single PS slash [1].


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

The _signature destructive ability_ of the ocean swallower; the land splitter; the mountain carrier; the _progenitor of all that exists_ is *far *more powerful than Hashirama or Madara in _any _form. Arguing against that is plain stupid and goes against everything Kishimoto's made out the Jubi to be.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> With twice as powerful i mean that he has twice as much power/chakra.
> Full Kyuubi might be more durable thanks to his superior chakra quantity.


Twice as much chakra =/= being able to output attacks twice as powerful.
It seems that full kyuubi's chakra quantity gives it size, not durability meaning pound for pound I don't see it being more durable than 50% kurama or BM Naruto.




blk said:


> Naruto's additional abilities are eclipsed by a single PS slash [1].



Not really when a single FRS has an explosion that fills half the chibaku tensei crater, and a BM FRS cuts through the same juubi tails that a bijuudama, and many gigantic Kyuubi powered fuuton slashes + air palms couldn't cut or destroy.

Not when Naruto can make many KSM/BSM clones spam firing techniques like those, or use techniques that are a hundred times larger.

A PS slash doesn't eclipse that kind of firepower, in fact, it's the other way around.


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## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Prove it.
> 
> Kurama at 100% is twice as powerful as his 50% version.
> 
> However, Bijuu Mode Naruto is not 50 % Kurama. He's stronger. Much stronger.



BM Naruto has almost the same amount of power of 50% Kurama, the notion that this isn't the case is immediatly debunked by the fact the BM is entirely dependant on Kurama's chakra. When said chakra ends, the BM ends.




> If you compare the scan of Naruto & Sasuke fusion to that of Madara's you'll notice Naruto's Avatar is not noticeably interior in size.



That's just because of Kishimoto's inconsistent drawing, but he clearly portrayed full Kurama as bigger in Kushina's flashback.
Even it isn't, no big deal, the result of the match doesn't change in the slightest.




> Since Naruto & Kurama are different entities, you'll have to prove this as well. Kurama is a living breathing fox, with skin, meat, and bones. Naruto shapes Kurama's _and his own_ Chakra into the form of a fox; it is completely different being all together than Kurama himself. Naruto also uses Sage Mode in conjunction with Bijuu Mode, meaning the Avatar is infused with Natural Energy. If you recall what benefits Sage Mode granted to Base Naruto & Base Kabuto, then maybe you'll realize that equating him to Kurama isn't exactly logical.



Bijuu are made of chakra []; remember that chakra can take the shape and the apparence of other natural objects.

When did i equated BSM Naruto and the full Kyuubi? I'm pretty sure to have stated that the latter is outright superior.

It is pretty absurd to suggest that the 50% Kurama + SM is even close to 50% Kurama + 50% Kurama + Madara's Perfect Susano'o.



> The signature destructive ability of the ocean swallower; the land splitter; the mountain carrier; the progenitor of all that exists is far more powerful than Hashirama or Madara in any form. Arguing against that is plain stupid and goes against everything Kishimoto's made out the Jubi to be.



This has nothing to do with the thread.




ueharakk said:


> Twice as much chakra =/= being able to output attacks twice as powerful.
> It seems that full kyuubi's chakra quantity gives it size, not durability meaning pound for pound I don't see it being more durable than 50% kurama or BM Naruto.



Unless you mean that such is the case because of Kurama's inability of using his own power, i don't see how that would be the case.
The more chakra/energy one put into a jutsu, the stronger it will be.




> Not really when a single FRS has an explosion that fills half the chibaku tensei crater, and a BM FRS cuts through the same juubi tails that a bijuudama, and many gigantic Kyuubi powered fuuton slashes + air palms couldn't cut or destroy.
> 
> Not when Naruto can make many KSM/BSM clones spam firing techniques like those, or use techniques that are a hundred times larger.
> 
> A PS slash doesn't eclipse that kind of firepower, in fact, it's the other way around.



Nice outlier, how about we take a better example? Like this one [2]. If you suggest again that the FRS is even close to the PS slashes by virtue of such instance, i'll just stop replying.

I'm fairly sure that it was the alliance as a whole that cut through the Juubi's tail.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Just because Kurama was more than twice as large as Yang Kurama, it doesn't mean it was twice as powerful. Biju Mode Naruto has far superior power output than Kurama does during VOTE and can use other abilities that can even damage the Jyubi in its second form. And this is all without taking into account his Biju Sage Mode which multiplies Naruto's power massively.


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## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Just because Kurama was more than twice as large as Yang Kurama, it doesn't mean it was twice as powerful. Biju Mode Naruto has far superior power output than Kurama does during VOTE and can use other abilities that can even damage the Jyubi in its second form. And this is all without taking into account his Biju Sage Mode which multiplies Naruto's power massively.



Are you denying that Minato put 50% of the power inside himself and the other 50% inside Naruto, despite the overwhelming evidences of the contrary? Are you really so much biased?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Are you denying that Minato put 50% of the power inside himself and the other 50% inside Naruto, despite the overwhelming evidences of the contrary? Are you really so much biased?


Who said I was denying anything? Minato separated the Yin half from the Yang Half, that's different than cutting 50% of its power. blk, why don't you prove Kurama got any weaker after the split? You know, character statements, displays of power, etc.? Otherwise, you're just arguing 'superior size means superior power, duh!'


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

> Just because Kurama was more than twice  as large as Yang Kurama, it doesn't mean it was twice as powerful. Biju  Mode Naruto has far superior power output than Kurama does during VOTE  and can use other abilities that can even damage the Jyubi in its second  form. And this is all without taking into account his Biju Sage Mode  which multiplies Naruto's power massively.



The argument isn't size. The argument is that Minato replicated the exact same mode Naruto had minus the sage abilities. Now combine Naruto's BM and Minato's and you have the Kyuubi that Madara summoned. Or at least, the same chakra capacity and fire power.




> The _signature destructive ability_ of the ocean swallower; the land splitter; the mountain carrier; the _progenitor of all that exists_ is *far *more powerful than Hashirama or Madara in _any _form. Arguing against that is plain stupid and goes against everything Kishimoto's made out the Jubi to be.



Other than the fact that using hyperbole is a terrible idea in an argument, I could easily just say that the Kyuubi was referring to the final form of the Juubi. Not the form of the Juubi that, you know, did none of the things that you just listed. That signature destructive ability was nothing compared to what it was when it evolved one step. At that point Naruto never even came close to tanking that ability - he had to be protected by Minato along with everyone else in the alliance. To say that the Juubi's bijuu dama in its lower form would not overwhelm Madara and Hashirama is not a stretch of the imagination. 

Unless you're _not_ talking about the lower level bijuu dama that the Juubi fired off and you're talking about that giant storm he created - which isn't really a good argument since Madara tanked that easily with a lower form of Susano-o.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

The Kyuubi didn't get weaker? So....sage Naruto can over power a full Kyuubi for a short amount of time just as he did with the 50% right?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> The argument isn't size. The argument is that Minato replicated the exact same mode Naruto had minus the sage abilities. Now combine Naruto's BM and Minato's and you have the Kyuubi that Madara summoned. Or at least, the same chakra capacity and fire power.


Except that isn't it. BM Minato and BM Naruto would be a bit larger than their respective Yin and Yang halves due to the mixing of chakra needed to create their Biju Mode. 

And we need character statements and such to prove that Kurama, either half, got weaker from the split. If anything, everyone rants about how STRONG Kurama is and no one, not even Kurama claims he's weaker from what Minato did.



αce said:


> The Kyuubi didn't get weaker? So....sage Naruto can over power a full Kyuubi for a short amount of time just as he did with the 50% right?


No one at all claims Kurama got weaker. There'd be no point in splitting Yin and Yang Kurama in half if that happened since a weaker Kurama couldn't help Naruto defeat Tobi. And Sage Mode Naruto is a very strong opponent Ace, he has the firepower, speed, and mobility to outmanuever and hit Kurama.

If the manga _actually claims Kurama got weaker_, that'd be canon. But its just an assumption and a bias to claim BM Naruto is weaker than '100% Kurama' just through 100% Kurama's size. Kurama never calls himself weaker. Gyuki and Bee never call him weaker. Madara and Obito never call him weaker. Thus we can infer that Kurama is just as strong as he always was, but his size is smaller.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> BM Naruto has almost the same amount of power of 50% Kurama, the notion that this isn't the case is immediatly debunked by the fact the BM is entirely dependant on Kurama's chakra. When said chakra ends, the BM ends.




You overlook that Bijuu Mode Naruto uses both his own Chakra & Kurama's. It's a fusion of sorts:





He is not dependent solely upon the fox. That should've been fairly easy to understand, as Bijuu Mode Naruto looks nothing like any of the other any of the other Bijuu Mode Jinchuriki, who are of splitting image of their respective Bijuu.

Furthermore, Naruto is able to mold Chakra more efficiently than Kurama, resulting in more focused power. We've seen this before, with Obito & the Ten-Tails.



> Bijuu are made of chakra []; remember that chakra can take the shape and the apparence of other natural objects.
> 
> It is pretty absurd to suggest that the 50% Kurama + SM is even close to 50% Kurama + 50% Kurama + Madara's Perfect Susano'o.




Kurama is a living form of Chakra....with skin, meat and bones just as I said. Bijuu Mode Naruto's Chakra avatar is not "living," it is simply pure Chakra in a similar manner to that of Susano'o.

Again, you wrongly refer to Bijuu-Sage Mode Naruto as "50% Kurama + SM". Listen, Sage Naruto beat 50% Kurama to the ground. Kurama looked flat out outclassed. On the other hand, Bijuu Mode Naruto beat up _multiple_ full grown Bijuu, and is massively superior in general to Sage Naruto by himself. So, I advise you to stop trying to sell that Bijuu Mode Naruto is only as strong as an entity that Sage Naruto smacked around. It doesn't work.

I find absolutely nothing wrong with claiming that a special Perfect Jinchuriki _and_ a Perfect Sage fusing his two legendary arts is stronger than a rampaging Kyuubi wearing a suit of armor. _Especially_ when Bijuu Mode Naruto's showings are greater than those of Kurama's.




> This has nothing to do with the thread.




Until you realize that Naruto comfortably survived a Bijuudama from the Ten-Tails.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

So that's a yes?


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Ace said:
			
		

> To say that the Juubi's bijuu dama in its lower form would not overwhelm Madara and Hashirama is not a stretch of the imagination.




Why isn't it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> So that's a yes?


Well ace, can you find any statements that Kurama got weaker? From Kurama himself? Hashirama or Madara? Or Jiraiya or Gerotora or Fukasaku? Or Kakashi? Or any of the other Biju?


----------



## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm asking you a simple yes or no question.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

I'm asking you too. The manga never, not once indicates Kurama got weaker did it?


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Half power = weaker, SSM12.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire post was based on the assumption that because the Kyuubi made a statement about the final form of the Juubi, that the lower form of the same bijuu must in fact be much stronger than anything that Madara or Hashirama could accomplish. Now, I agree that the Juubi is obviously stronger, even in the lower form, but that's faulty portrayal. I have no problem with using portrayal as an argument, but you didn't even consider the fact that he was talking about the final form - not the lower form, which isn't even comparable to the second (not even final) evolution of the Juubi.

Yes, the Juubi in the lower forms was much stronger than the Kyuubi. But it was still an ant compared to the same Juubi that Kishi was hyping up. So the argument that Kishi's portrayal of the Juubi overrides the idea that Madara and Hashirama could not do the same thing Naruto did does not sit with me because there's a clear discrepancy in power between the lower form and the god that the Rikudou managed to seal.

I really should just turn this question around - if Naruto could tank it, why can't Hashirama? I mean, I'm looking at this beam and it's not something beyond the scope of what Madara, Naruto and Hashirama are capable of defending against- it's only slightly stronger. Is there any reason they would be overwhelmed other than "OF COURSE THEY CAN'T IT'S THE JUUBI"?


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

> I'm asking you too. The manga never, not once indicates Kurama got weaker did it?



No, it didn't. There's my answer. 


Now answer me, even though I asked first. Can sage mode naruto temporarily overwhelm the same Kyuubi that Madara summoned, if they are, in fact, the exact same in power?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> No, it didn't. There's my answer.
> 
> 
> Now answer me, even though I asked first. Can sage mode naruto temporarily overwhelm the same Kyuubi that Madara summoned, if they are, in fact, the exact same in power?


Yeah. Even Hiruzen could force Kurama out of Konoha despite being '100%' if you recall correctly. And Sage Mode Naruto is a stronger opponent than Hiruzen is.



Rocky said:


> Half power = weaker, SSM12.


Not really in this case. Kurama basically has near infinite amounts of chakra, not only that the manga never indicated at all Kurama was any weaker after the split. Kurama never said he was weaker, Gyuki and the other Biju never said he was weaker, Madara and Hashirama never said he was weaker, Obito never said he was weaker, Minato never said he was weaker.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

Actually I read that wrong. I'll agree that no character ever stated that the Kyuubi was weaker - but attempting to disprove my original stance of the Kyuubi having a reduction in power because of a lack of statements is not a good counter argument. That's equivalent to if someone took the stance that EMS Madara is as strong as his Edo body because no one that fought or witnessed his power ever made a statement about his new arsenal.

I'm of the opinion that the Kyuubi being weaker was implied. Hence the reason that sage mode Naruto overwhelmed it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> Actually I read that wrong. I'll agree that no character ever stated that the Kyuubi was weaker - but attempting to disprove my original stance of the Kyuubi having a reduction in power because of a lack of statements is not a good counter argument. That's equivalent to if someone took the stance that EMS Madara is as strong as his Edo body because no one that fought or witnessed his power ever made a statement about his new arsenal.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that the Kyuubi being weaker was implied. Hence the reason that sage mode Naruto overwhelmed it.


...but it wasn't implied at all. Everyone remarked at how strong Kurama was. No one, not even Kurama ever indicated he was weaker.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> I'm of the opinion that the Kyuubi being weaker was implied. Hence the reason that sage mode Naruto overwhelmed it.



I consider that fight an outlier for reasons of, IIRC, Naruto being able to pull off a SM TKB. Has Naruto ever made (substantially) more than 2 SM clones outside of that fight to truly say SM Naruto > 50% Kurama?

Memory's definitely hazy though so I'm asking.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

αce said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but your entire post was based on the assumption that because the Kyuubi made a statement about the final form of the Juubi, that the lower form of the same bijuu must in fact be much stronger than anything that Madara or Hashirama could accomplish. Now, I agree that the Juubi is obviously stronger, even in the lower form, but that's faulty portrayal. I have no problem with using portrayal as an argument, but you didn't even consider the fact that he was talking about the final form - not the lower form, which isn't even comparable to the second (not even final) evolution of the Juubi.




Its final form, The Shinju, or God Tree, isn't an ocean devourer or a mountain carrier. It's a fucking tree. It doesn't even move, and its only goal is to absorb Chakra. So, I'm just going to assume that you believe Kurama was speaking of its second form.

Now, I don't particularly care which form Kurama was referring too, as i was just hyping my argument. However, I have no clue where the belief that the initial Juubi is so massively inferior to its second stage comes from. Are you basing it off the size of the Bijuudama explosion alone?




> Yes, the Juubi in the lower forms was much stronger than the Kyuubi. But it was still an ant compared to the same Juubi that Kishi was hyping up. So the argument that Kishi's portrayal of the Juubi overrides the idea that Madara and Hashirama could not do the same thing Naruto did does not sit with me because there's a clear discrepancy in power between the lower form and the god that the Rikudou managed to seal.






No it was not an "ant." Where was that said, or even demonstrated? Kishimoto was portraying the Ten-Tails to be a game ender in any stage. Even its silhouette that appeared in flashbacks was of its initial form. This form was the one smacking around BM Naruto & Bee, flicking away Bijuudama, and blasting through _multiple_ Bijuudama with its own. Why is it an "ant?"

Sure it's weaker than its second stage, but who cares? What have Madara or Hashirama faced with comparable power to it?



> I really should just turn this question around - if Naruto could tank it, why can't Hashirama? I mean, I'm looking at this beam and it's not something beyond the scope of what Madara, Naruto and Hashirama are capable of defending against- it's only slightly stronger. Is there any reason they would be overwhelmed other than "OF COURSE THEY CAN'T IT'S THE JUUBI"?




Because Hashirama is not Naruto. 

I just want you to tell me _why_ you believe Hashirama or Madara could tank the Jubi's Bijuudama without saying "herp derp Naruto tanked it so they can."


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## Psp123789 (Oct 21, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I consider that fight an outlier for reasons of, IIRC, Naruto being able to pull off a SM TKB. Has Naruto ever made (substantially) more than 2 SM clones outside of that fight to truly say SM Naruto > 50% Kurama?
> 
> Memory's definitely hazy though so I'm asking.


The only reason Naruto wasn't able to make more than a couple of clones during his fight with pain is because they would interfere with the clones gathering sage chakra. Naruto can make the same amount of clones as he can in base but only when he doesn't have other clones gathering sage chakra for him. Just pointing that out.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Unless you mean that such is the case because of Kurama's inability of using his own power, i don't see how that would be the case.
> *The more chakra/energy one put into a jutsu, the stronger it will be*.


I don't see anywhere in my post that contradicts the bolded.  And yes, it's heavily implied that Kurama is unable to use its power like BM Naruto can.




blk said:


> Nice outlier, how about we take a better example? Like this one [2]. If you suggest again that the FRS is even close to the PS slashes by virtue of such instance, i'll just stop replying.


Those are in no way outliers.

What you've just posted is the wind sphere which is far more concentrated than the raw explosion of FRS.  By your logic, Oonoki's jinton cube is far weaker than deidara's C2 despite sasuke blocking C2 with his wing.  So no, FRS's raw explosion still encompasses half the chibaku tensei crater.

Need more evidence?  FRS damaged 50% Kurama way more than 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans each stated by databook to be mountain hollowers and backed up by feats of much smaller rasengans vs environment.  

So no, unless you either want to say that C2 that sasuke can block with his wing is far more powerful than a FRS, then it's not an outlier.



blk said:


> I'm fairly sure that it was the alliance as a whole that cut through the Juubi's tail.


nope it couldn't have been the alliance as a whole as naruto was at the very front of everyone so his attack must have penetrated right through the tails.

And finally, SM Chou oodama FRS alone is significantly more powerful than a PS slash based on the size of wind spheres smaller rasenshurikens create.  The wind sphere generated would be enough to encompass the entire V2 juubi in addition to it being much stronger than the Chou oodama FRS we've seen naruto use in the manga.


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## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

*@SuperSaiyaMan12:*

Here you go [1 ; 2 ; 3 ; 4 ; ]. In all of those pages it is clearly stated that Kurama's chakra was divided in half.
Therefore, a full Kyuubi has at his disposal twice as much chakra (and thus power) as the 50% versions.




Rocky said:


> You overlook that Bijuu Mode Naruto uses both his own Chakra & Kurama's. It's a fusion of sorts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



More focused power? Provide evidences.
Still, the overall power of full Kurama is twice as much.




> Kurama is a living form of Chakra....with skin, meat and bones just as I said. Bijuu Mode Naruto's Chakra avatar is not "living," it is simply pure Chakra in a similar manner to that of Susano'o.
> 
> Again, you wrongly refer to Bijuu-Sage Mode Naruto as "50% Kurama + SM". Listen, Sage Naruto beat 50% Kurama to the ground. Kurama looked flat out outclassed. On the other hand, Bijuu Mode Naruto beat up _multiple_ full grown Bijuu, and is massively superior in general to Sage Naruto by himself. So, I advise you to stop trying to sell that Bijuu Mode Naruto is only as strong as an entity that Sage Naruto smacked around. It doesn't work.
> 
> I find absolutely nothing wrong with claiming that a special Perfect Jinchuriki _and_ a Perfect Sage fusing his two legendary arts is stronger than a rampaging Kyuubi wearing a suit of armor. _Especially_ when Bijuu Mode Naruto's showings are greater than those of Kurama's.



I have no interest in what you think a "living" thing is and how that makes a difference; just provide some evidence for why full Kurama, who is a chakra entity, is not as durable as his 50% version.

Kurama was outclassed by SM Naruto? Let's see, shall we:

- Bee saves Naruto from losing immediatly [6];

- Naruto's counter attack is successful because of the coverage provided by Bee's tentacle [7 ; 8 ; 9];

- Kushina saves Naruto from being overwhelmed by Kurama's chakra and immobilizes him with her chains [10 ; 11];

- Naruto is able to prepare his last attack because Kurama is immobilized by Kushina's chains [12 ; 13 ; 14]. Kurama could have used a Bijuudama at any time if it wasn't for Kushina's chains;

- Kushina ruins Kurama's last chance of defending from Naruto's assault [15].


This is 50% Kurama's power after having lost a seemingly big part of his chakra [16].
A fresh 50% Kurama has more power than that, a full Kurama has _twice_ as much power as a fresh 50%.




> Until you realize that Naruto comfortably survived a Bijuudama from the Ten-Tails.



I still don't see how this is relevant.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2013)

Wait hold up. I read that the FRS has an explosion of Half the CT crater, and didn't that crater fill all of Konoha? So the explosion produced by FRS against Kurama was how much weaker? I mean Kurama himself is less then half the size of Konoha.
Sooo.. It kinda doesn't make sense to say that the size of the explosion=more power. Like when ALWAYS brought up with BM Naruto vs Kurama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> I consider that fight an outlier for reasons of, IIRC, Naruto being able to pull off a SM TKB. Has Naruto ever made (substantially) more than 2 SM clones outside of that fight to truly say SM Naruto > 50% Kurama?
> 
> Memory's definitely hazy though so I'm asking.


Naruto's only restricted to two clones in Sage Mode when he already has three drawing upon the Natural Energy. If he doesn't make clones for that purpose, he can use as many clones if he wants.



Likes boss said:


> Wait hold up. I read that the FRS has an explosion of Half the CT crater, and didn't that crater fill all of Konoha? So the explosion produced by FRS against Kurama was how much weaker? I mean Kurama himself is less then half the size of Konoha.
> Sooo.. It kinda doesn't make sense to say that the size of the explosion=more power. Like when ALWAYS brought up with BM Naruto vs Kurama.


When the FRS exploded in Konoha, it was a controlled blast by Naruto who kept all that power from expanding. The FRS explosion that covered half the Chibaku Tensei crater couldn't be controlled since Naruto was out of Sage Mode.


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## Kenpachi TZ (Oct 21, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> The only reason Naruto wasn't able to make more than a couple of clones during his fight with pain is because they would interfere with the clones gathering sage chakra. Naruto can make the same amount of clones as he can in base but only when he doesn't have other clones gathering sage chakra for him. Just pointing that out.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto's only restricted to two clones  in Sage Mode when he already has three drawing upon the Natural Energy.  If he doesn't make clones for that purpose, he can use as many clones if  he wants.



But has he _*ever*_ done more than a handful of SM clones outside that fight?


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> More focused power? Provide evidences.
> Still, the overall power of full Kurama is twice as much.






The only certainty is Kurama's superiority over his 50% self. BM Naruto isn't 50% Kurama, just as BM Obito isn't the Jubi.




> Just provide some evidence for why full Kurama, who is a chakra entity, is not as durable as his 50% version.




I'm not arguing about its 50% version. I'm arguing for BM Naruto. So, evidence?

Well, Naruto tanked the Jubi's Bijudama with his cloak. Kurama needed Madara's Susano'o to survive his own Bijudama, which is weaker than that of the Ten-Tail's.



> Kurama was outclassed by SM Naruto? Let's see, shall we:




Yes, at times throughout that fight he was. My point is that Sage Mode Naruto would not be capable of slamming BM Naruto on the ground and FRS'ing him. Kushina's assistance wouldn't change that either. 




> I still don't see how this is relevant.




Because Kurama didn't.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Wait hold up. I read that the FRS has an explosion of Half the CT crater, and didn't that crater fill all of Konoha? So the explosion produced by FRS against Kurama was how much weaker? I mean Kurama himself is less then half the size of Konoha.
> Sooo.. It kinda doesn't make sense to say that the size of the explosion=more power. Like when ALWAYS brought up with BM Naruto vs Kurama.



Raw explsion.  *FRS's raw explosion filled up half* the *CT crater.*

The explosion you refer to that hit Kurama wasn't a raw explosion, it was the *wind sphere of FRS.*  The FRS's wind sphere is much smaller in AoE than the raw explosion, but it's power is in turn much more concentrated than the raw explosion.

Super concentrated attacks like FRS or dust release, compress power much much greater than a raw explosion into their smaller AoE.  That's why sasuke only gets a wing blown off by an *explosion magnitudes larger than a FRS's wind sphere* and at the same time *FRS damages Kurama much more than this attack.*

More examples are the fact that SM FRS is just way more powerful than naruto's 50% FRS, yet both produce wind spheres of the same size.  Or the fact that even the 50% FRS creates a perfect halfsphere crater in the ground while much larger explosions such as deidara's C2 barely even damage the earth.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto's only restricted to two clones in Sage Mode when he already has three drawing upon the Natural Energy. If he doesn't make clones for that purpose, he can use as many clones if he wants.
> 
> 
> When the FRS exploded in Konoha, it was a controlled blast by Naruto who kept all that power from expanding. The FRS explosion that covered half the Chibaku Tensei crater couldn't be controlled since Naruto was out of Sage Mode.





Then explain why the ONLY thing taken into consideration when power is regarded is the size of the explosion.  A sage enhanced FRS is stronger then a normal FRS, yet the explosion is smaller.
Either Kishi doesn't care about  the general size or SM is more concentrated right? If that's the case then what conclusion does anybody have for PS Slash<SBD. There literally is no way you can conclude that based on the feats and information given. It's a baseless assumption.


----------



## Rasengan with gatorade (Oct 21, 2013)

This is something.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Then explain why the ONLY thing taken into consideration when power is regarded is the size of the explosion.  A sage enhanced FRS is stronger then a normal FRS, yet the explosion is smaller.
> Either Kishi doesn't care about  the general size or SM is more concentrated right? If that's the case then what conclusion does anybody have for PS Slash<SBD. There literally is no way you can conclude that based on the feats and information given. It's a baseless assumption.


A Normal Futon: Rasenshuriken is _far_ weaker than either a Senjutsu Futon: Rasenshuriken, KCM Rasenshuriken, or BM Rasenshuriken. The explosion in Konoha is when the Futon: Rasenshuriken had _expanded_ and Naruto kept its blast small so he didn't destroy more of Konoha. The final FRS in the Pain battle was _outside_ Konoha and Naruto could cut lose more, hence why the uncontrolled blast in 442 took up half the Chibaku Tensei Crater.

And yes, Perfect Susano'o's Slash is far weaker than a Super Bijudama. Super Bijudama dwarfs massive mountain ranges (with a few mountains only going up 'inches' compared to the blast) while Perfect Susano'o just slashes through two mountains. Far weaker.



			
				Kenpachi TZ said:
			
		

> But has he ever done more than a handful of SM clones outside that fight?


Yep, during the Pain fight. After his last Senjutsu gathering clone was dispelled, he created hundreds while still in Sage Mode, disguised them as rocks and maneuvered Deva Path into the field after the duration ended after using both Rasenshurikens.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> Kurama was outclassed by SM Naruto? Let's see, shall we:
> 
> - Bee saves Naruto from losing immediatly [6];


is that sage mode naruto?  No, so obviously that's doesn't apply to sage mode naruto.



blk said:


> - Naruto's counter attack is successful because of the coverage provided by Bee's tentacle [7 ; 8 ; 9];


really?  It wasn't due to IDK, kurama trying to hit the real naruto?  No, Kurama didn't even know the other clones existed even after they ran out from cover, it was only after they grabbed his tail.



blk said:


> - Kushina saves Naruto from being overwhelmed by Kurama's chakra and immobilizes him with her chains [10 ; 11];


That's again not sennin mode naruto as he's not in sage mode, in addition to the fact that had this been a real battle, naruto would have won by this point.



blk said:


> - Naruto is able to prepare his last attack because Kurama is immobilized by Kushina's chains [12 ; 13 ; 14]. Kurama *could have used a Bijuudama at any time if it wasn't for Kushina's chains;*


Yeah, none of this applies as that would have never occured if naruto had just continued to attack a kurama who couldn't even stand rather than try and rip his chakra out.



blk said:


> - Kushina ruins Kurama's last chance of defending from Naruto's assault [15]
> Is Naruto in sennin mode when she did that?  No, so it doesn't apply.
> 
> so no, none of your scans show naruto needing assistance in any kind of way against 50% Kurama.  I can show you SM Naruto just dominating kurama, slamming him down after tricking him with a bunshin feint, and winning the battle with a FRS leaving his opponent in a weakened state unable to even get up had his goal not have been to chakra rip kurama but to outright beat in combat.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Raw explsion.  *FRS's raw explosion filled up half* the *CT crater.*
> 
> The explosion you refer to that hit Kurama wasn't a raw explosion, it was the *wind sphere of FRS.*  The FRS's wind sphere is much smaller in AoE than the raw explosion, but it's power is in turn much more concentrated than the raw explosion.
> 
> ...



Okay thanks I understand that, but how can a Super BD be stronger then a PS slash or Buddha Barrage just based on destruction size output? That's basically how the power of said attacks have been determined.
It's kinda hypecritical you think?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Okay thanks I understand that, but how can a Super BD be stronger then a PS slash or Buddha Barrage just based on destruction size output? That's basically how the power of said attacks have been determined.
> It's kinda hypecritical you think?


Super Bijudama can destroy an entire mountain range and fill up an area larger than even the Valley of the End. Perfect Susano'o slash just bisects two mountains and Choju Kebetsu doesn't have the feats in Super Bijudama's destructive range.


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## blk (Oct 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't see anywhere in my post that contradicts the bolded.  And yes, it's heavily implied that Kurama is unable to use its power like BM Naruto can.



When and how such a thing was heavily implied?



> Those are in no way outliers.
> 
> What you've just posted is the wind sphere which is far more concentrated than the raw explosion of FRS.  By your logic, Oonoki's jinton cube is far weaker than deidara's C2 despite sasuke blocking C2 with his wing.  So no, FRS's raw explosion still encompasses half the chibaku tensei crater.
> 
> ...



What exactly is meant with "hollowing a mountain"? I would like to see some evidences of SM Odama rasengan doing that.



> nope it couldn't have been the alliance as a whole as naruto was at the very front of everyone so his attack must have penetrated right through the tails.
> 
> And finally, SM Chou oodama FRS alone is significantly more powerful than a PS slash based on the size of wind spheres smaller rasenshurikens create.  The wind sphere generated would be enough to encompass the entire V2 juubi in addition to it being much stronger than the Chou oodama FRS we've seen naruto use in the manga.



Naruto's FRS wasn't big enough for cut the whole Juubi tail, so it was most likely the alliance as whole that did it.

Anyway, clones and FRS won't even get close to PS Kyuubi, since the slashes and Bijuudama spam will simply obliterate everything.



> is that sage mode naruto? No, so obviously that's doesn't apply to sage mode naruto.



He would have died to the Bijuudama even if he was in SM.



> really? It wasn't due to IDK, kurama trying to hit the real naruto? No, Kurama didn't even know the other clones existed even after they ran out from cover, it was only after they grabbed his tail.



Bee's remnants gave to Naruto the chance to escape from Kurama's vision and hide.

As for the rest, if that was a real battle not bound by the plot Kurama would have just spammed some Bijuudama and killed Naruto.




Rocky said:


> The only certainty is Kurama's superiority over his 50% self. BM Naruto isn't 50% Kurama, just as BM Obito isn't the Jubi.



Whether the power is more focused or not (which is still doubtfull, considering that i shown to you that Kurama is easily capable of making super Bijuudama) the overall amount doesn't change.
Full Kurama has still twice as much power.





> I'm not arguing about its 50% version. I'm arguing for BM Naruto. So, evidence?
> 
> Well, Naruto tanked the Jubi's Bijudama with his cloak. Kurama needed Madara's Susano'o to survive his own Bijudama, which is weaker than that of the Ten-Tail's.



The cloack got obliterated, he never tanked the attack, he survived to it.
Sacrificing something for survive isn't the same as tanking; if you sacrifice your arm for survive to a bullet it doesn't mean that you can tank a bullet, quite the contrary.

Also, do not equate a "didn't" with a "couldn't". Nowhere it is stated that Madara used PS because Kurama would have died to his own Bijuudama (and considering that his 50% six tailed version tanked his own Bijuudama, we know that's false).



> Yes, at times throughout that fight he was. My point is that Sage Mode Naruto would not be capable of slamming BM Naruto on the ground and FRS'ing him. Kushina's assistance wouldn't change that either.



If BM Naruto isn't able to turn off the avatar and the circumstances are exactly the same, i don't see why SM Naruto shouldn't be able to do the same.



> Because Kurama didn't.



You are correct he didn't: a version with half of his power was more than enough.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Super Bijudama can destroy an entire mountain range and fill up an area larger than even the Valley of the End. Perfect Susano'o slash just bisects two mountains and Choju Kebetsu doesn't have the feats in Super Bijudama's destructive range.



But that's extremely hypercritical. That's like saying a base FRS> SM FRS because the explosion is larger. We just talked about this.

Madara's PS sword hit one mountain(destroyed abosolutely everything it touched) and the shockwave of said sword destroyed an entire range. How exactly strong is a direct but from the sword? How would you know. Everything it directly hit was obliterated.

I mean honestly, do you think BM Naruto could survive a Big Bang Attack or a Spirit Bomb for that matter?


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> the overall amount doesn't change.



The overall power does change. For example, The Jubi couldn't get past the Hokage Barrier with it's massive Bijuu Bombs. BM Obito was able to rip it down with _physical strength alone_, leading Bee to note he was stronger. 



> The cloack got obliterated, he never tanked the attack, he survived to it.
> Sacrificing something for survive isn't the same as tanking; if you sacrifice your arm for survive to a bullet it doesn't mean that you can tank a bullet, quite the contrary.
> 
> Also, do not equate a "didn't" with a "couldn't". Nowhere it is stated that Madara used PS because Kurama would have died to his own Bijuudama (and considering that his 50% six tailed version tanked his own Bijuudama, we know that's false).




The cloak merely lost some of its tails, which is far from obliteration. Naruto himself however remained safe inside the cloak.

And is your new argument that Kurama can tank his own Bijuudama, and Madara's protection was just for fun? 

K. 



> If BM Naruto isn't able to turn off the avatar and the circumstances are exactly the same, i don't see why SM Naruto shouldn't be able to do the same.




Good thing BM Naruto can tun off the avatar. He also wouldn't have been clone feinted, considering BM Naruto is a negative emotion sensor. BM Naruto can also create clones, and do a myriad of other things Kurama cannot. 

Get the idea out of your mind that Sage Naruto is anywhere near BM Naruto.




> You are correct he didn't: a version with half of his power was more than enough.




You mean Naruto. 

Naruto ≠ 50% Kurama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> But that's extremely hypercritical. That's like saying a base FRS> SM FRS because the explosion is larger. We just talked about this.


...what? Base FRS doesn't have a larger explosion than the Sage Mode FRS. The Sage Mode FRS exploded took up half the crater of the Chibaku Tensei, this is the best said Futon Rasenshuriken has done.


> Madara's PS sword hit one mountain(destroyed abosolutely everything it touched) and the shockwave of said sword destroyed an entire range. How exactly strong is a direct but from the sword? How would you know. Everything it directly hit was obliterated.


Madara's Perfect Susano'o only outright destroyed his meteors, and even then there were still remnants around after he bisected two mountains. That is still less power and energy than even a normal Bijudama which _wipes mountains off the map_, leaving no trace. To do that, you need a higher amount of energy and power.


> I mean honestly, do you think BM Naruto could survive a Big Bang Attack or a Spirit Bomb for that matter?


No, considering those are PLANET BUSTING ATTACKS on levels of power far beyond that in Naruto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The _signature destructive ability_ of the ocean swallower; the land splitter; the mountain carrier; the _progenitor of all that exists_ is *far *more powerful than Hashirama or Madara in _any _form. Arguing against that is plain stupid and goes against everything Kishimoto's made out the Jubi to be.



This is one of the most meaningless posts I've seen in a while.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 21, 2013)

Uh, you can't really say that Bijuudama>Perfect Susano'o slash just based on their areas of effect; you're comparing an exploding attack to a cutting attack, so of course the explosion is going to cause more widespread damage to the environment (unless the cutting attack is just powerful enough to compensate for having such a precise contact point).

Given what we know about the two attacks, it is likely that a Perfect Susano'o slash is much deadlier to get hit by. It still has an explosive yield apparently in the megaton range, transferred only through the width of its sword (and the force of the air current generated by swinging it); most of the Bijuudama's yield is just expelled out into the universe and lost. Most targets, even Bijuu, simply aren't big enough to get hit with the majority of that explosive power, which renders any comparison between it and the power generated by the blade of Perfect Susano'o based on their AoE completely misleading.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...what? Base FRS doesn't have a larger explosion than the Sage Mode FRS. The Sage Mode FRS exploded took up half the crater of the Chibaku Tensei, this is the best said Futon Rasenshuriken has done.



That was actually Kn0 FRS, not base. Check out the eyes : Rasenshuriken

Also who gives a shit about debris and dust flying around. What matters is the actual explosion.
Even if the CT crater FRS was the actual size of the explosion, it would be written off as a drawing inconsistency, given it contradicts with every other feat of FRS so far.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

blk said:


> When and how such a thing was heavily implied?


the fact that jinchuriki's are stated to be >>> bijuus because they can control their power effectively





blk said:


> What exactly is meant with "hollowing a mountain"? *I would like to see some evidences of SM Odama rasengan doing that*.


Hollow out a mountain is to remove a significant portion of the insides of a mountain.  The bolded is in no way some kind of counterargument and it's SM CHOU oodama rasengan.  If you want to argue that it CAN'T hollow out a mountain, please give some evidence for that assertion, else you have no counterargument.

But I can give you evidence of a SM COR having mountain hollowing power.  Sasuke's part 1 chidori which is canonically weaker than naruto's weakest rasengan in destructive power, produces craters *this big.*  Thus *naruto's palm sized rasengan* at least has that amount of destructive power.  Thus you simply scale that damage in proportion to how a *SMCOR* compares to a palm-sized rasengan and that's the amount of rock a SMCOR removes from a mountain.  




blk said:


> Naruto's FRS wasn't big enough for cut the whole Juubi tail, so it was most likely the alliance as whole that did it.


Nope, seeing as Naruto's FRS wasn't big enough to cut through these, *the thickness of the juubi's tails are not relevant.*



blk said:


> Anyway, clones and FRS won't even get close to PS Kyuubi, since the slashes and Bijuudama spam will simply obliterate everything.


I guess this is you conceding that naruto's offense of FRS spam and chou oodama frs is overwhelmingly more powerful than a single PS slash.

If kyuusanoo wants to waste its slashes and bijuudama on FRS, chou oodama FRS, and bijuu rasengans, he's welcome to do so, but that severely weakens his offense against BSM Naruto and whatever thing he's going to try and pull to counter a super senpou bijuudama.



blk said:


> He would have died to the Bijuudama even if he was in SM.


If he was in SM he never would have been put in that situation in the first place.




blk said:


> Bee's remnants gave to Naruto the chance to escape from Kurama's vision and hide.


no they didn't, naruto could have easily transformed into those objects or hid behind other debri, in no way was it implied that bee's reminants were necessary.



blk said:


> As for the rest, if that was a real battle not bound by the plot Kurama would have just spammed some Bijuudama and killed Naruto.


Show Kurama under his own power spamming bijuudama if you want to assert he can do that.  

If it was a real battle, Naruto enters SM before opening the gate instead of foolishly trying it after he released kurama and nails kurama with a FRS when the beast tries to charge his first bijuudama.

And none of that matters since your whole 100% Kurama > 50% Kurama = BM Naruto is based on pure hype, no feats and thus by hype SM Naruto > 50% Kurama = BM Naruto.





blk said:


> Whether the power is more focused or not (which is still doubtfull, considering that i shown to you that Kurama is easily capable of making super Bijuudama) the overall amount doesn't change.
> Full Kurama has still twice as much power.


.  Full kurama having twice as much CHAKRA =/= having twice as much power.  If BM Naruto uses half of his BM chakra, is he and his jutsu half as powerful as he is with his full reserves?  Of course not.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Okay thanks I understand that, but how can a Super BD be stronger then a PS slash or Buddha Barrage just based on destruction size output? That's basically how the power of said attacks have been determined.
> It's kinda hypecritical you think?



The super bijuudama is much stronger than a PS slash due to feats and hype.  

By hype PS is at best only on par with that of a normal bijuudama*power of THE bijuu*), the blade being *combined with a normal bijuudama*, and the verbal *hype of Mei's* being the same thing as *kakashi's verbal hype of a normal bijuudama.*

By feats, a PS slash and a bijuudama differ from FRS because we both see the total destructive output of the two attacks.  A bijuudama with the majority of its power vaporizes a high-end mountain's worth of rock.  A PS slash destroys the meteor, makes a big trench for miles and cuts two high end mountains in the background or it slices 5 mountains and 7 giant mokuton arms.  To find how each attack compares to the other you simply add up the total destruction each did, and based on that it fits the hyped description to be on par with a standard TBB (a beast bomb that any of the bijuu can use)  

Both Bijuudama and PS slash are not special kinds of attacks.  One is merely an explosion, the other is a shockwave, neither has special properties like FRS's subcellular needles or jinton submolecular attacks.
Jinton cube and FRS are exempt from those examples because they don't exert their full energy on their environment (unless FRS explodes raw), that energy is confined into a much smaller AoE unlike a bijuudama or PS slash.

Anyways that's the reasoning why the slash is only as powerful as a normal bijuudama.  There's always ways to pry and prick at any reasoning made from the manga, but I think normal bijuudama = PS slash is by far the most compelling argument we have in relation of the two attack's powers.



Nikushimi said:


> Uh, you can't really say that Bijuudama>Perfect Susano'o slash just based on their areas of effect; you're comparing an exploding attack to a cutting attack, so of course the explosion is going to cause more widespread damage to the environment (unless the cutting attack is just powerful enough to compensate for having such a precise contact point).


actually you can base them on their AoE.  PS's power is exerted as a shockwave, we see the total destruction that shockwave does to the environment and thus we compare that to the total destruction that a bijuudama does to the environment.  The shockwave isn't limited in AoE since it will continue to travel until all of its energy is exerted on the environment much like an explosion.



Nikushimi said:


> Given what we know about the two attacks, it is likely that a Perfect Susano'o slash is much deadlier to get hit by.


not necessarily, but case by case yes.



Nikushimi said:


> It still has an explosive yield apparently in the megaton range, transferred only through the width of its sword (and the force of the air current generated by swinging it); most of the Bijuudama's yield is just expelled out into the universe and lost. Most targets, even Bijuu, simply aren't big enough to get hit with the majority of that explosive power, which renders any comparison between it and the power generated by the blade of Perfect Susano'o based on their AoE completely misleading.


200 megatons to quote OBD calcs.

Not really.  The vast majority of the PS's shockwave still misses the bijuu as the power is dispersed over the arc of the whole swing.  On the other hand if a bijuu is hit directly with a bijuudama, it takes roughly 50% of the total power from the attack.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> actually you can base them on their AoE.  PS's power is exerted as a shockwave, we see the total destruction that shockwave does to the environment and thus we compare that to the total destruction that a bijuudama does to the environment.  The shockwave isn't limited in AoE since it will continue to travel until all of its energy is exerted on the environment much like an explosion.





> Not really.  The vast majority of the PS's shockwave still misses the bijuu as the power is dispersed over the arc of the whole swing.



If you're only talking about the shockwave, then yeah. But if you're actually talking about getting hit with the sword, that's another story.



> On the other hand if a bijuu is hit directly with a bijuudama, it takes roughly 50% of the total power from the attack.



That would be impossible unless the Bijuu curled itself around half of the epicenter, which isn't likely outside of a suicide attempt.


EDIT: Also, 200MT for a single standard Bijuudama? I'd need to see that calc, because that can't be right.


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If you're only talking about the shockwave, then yeah. But if you're actually talking about getting hit with the sword, that's another story.


well do you agree that if they are hit with the sword, they would be taking the power of the shockwave focused on the edge that comes into contact with the sword?



Nikushimi said:


> That would be impossible unless the Bijuu curled itself around half of the epicenter, which isn't likely outside of a suicide attempt.


no, curling around the epicenter would have them taking 100% of the energy.  If they take it like bee took it they receive roughly 50% of the power as half the explosion that the sphere produces hits their body.



Nikushimi said:


> EDIT: Also, 200MT for a single standard Bijuudama? I'd need to see that calc, because that can't be right.


200 MT is for a PS slash.  4 gigatons is for a standard bijuudama.  But I think kishi's intent was for both standard bijuudama and slash to be roughly equal.


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## Veracity (Oct 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The super bijuudama is much stronger than a PS slash due to feats and hype.
> 
> By hype PS is at best only on par with that of a normal bijuudama*power of THE bijuu*), the blade being *combined with a normal bijuudama*, and the verbal *hype of Mei's* being the same thing as *kakashi's verbal hype of a normal bijuudama.*
> 
> ...



By hype Hashirama > Naruto
By hype Madara > Naruto
By hype Gaara-Tsunade-Mei> SM Naruto
But you tend it disagree on all of those. So I don't think hype should be used quite frankly. 

The thing is the sword ONLY actually hit the first mountain but the air pressure and shockwaves destroyed an entire mountain range. When Kurama wielded the sword it CLEANLY(destroyed everything sliced) cut through several mountains that completely dwarfed Kurama himself. What more so you expect from the sword? It destroyed everything in it's path, and then merely the air created from the sword leveled mountains. Even if the sword itself could kill a high tier DBZ character doesn't mean its destructive output would equal a SBD. That's just no how a sword works. A sword swing from trunks can kill beings with planet level durabilty yet it doesn't destroy countries with each swing, but in turn cuts through anything that is weaker then planet level. I just don't understand how you could say a PS swing is weaker then SBD based on AoE. It's like comparing a Nucler blast to A planet level sword swing(trunks)

You could even compare the explosion to let's say DBZ. A Super BD has a bigger explosion then Big Bang Attack yet which one is stronger?


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## ueharakk (Oct 21, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> By hype Hashirama > Naruto
> By hype Madara > Naruto
> By hype Gaara-Tsunade-Mei> SM Naruto
> But you tend it disagree on all of those. So I don't think hype should be used quite frankly.


That's character vs character hype.  That's NOT power of jutsu vs power of jutsu hype which legit since it's very linear: jutsu A is more powerful than jutsu B. 

And look at my tier list.  Hashirama is above naruto strictly due to hype.  So is Edo Madara, even EMS Madara w/ Kurama is.  If there is a direct jutsu vs jutsu or character vs character statement in the manga, I take it as truth.  that's why I have sasori above deidara despite their shown abilities.  And finally in no way was it implied that gaara, tsunade and mei were > SM Naruto by hype.  Bijuudama = PS slash was given hype by a blatant verbal statement.  If it was explicitly stated in the manga that SM Naruto was weaker than gaara, tsunade and mei then I'd more than happily concede that he is, but since its not then I'm in no way guilty of a double standard.

To top it all off, my method of evaluating pretty much anything in the battledome is this: feats > hype unless hype is a pretty blatant power statement like "hashirama is the strongest shinobi" or "hashirama was stronger than madara" or "Sasori is stronger than deidara".  Thus it's not that I say "hype is irrelevant', its only deemed false if feats contradict that hype.  So unless you show that by feats, a PS slash contradicts the hype and falsifies it, then the hype would hold true even if we weren't given a pretty blatant statement.




Likes boss said:


> The thing is the sword ONLY actually hit the first mountain but the air pressure and shockwaves destroyed an entire mountain range. When Kurama wielded the sword it CLEANLY(destroyed everything sliced) cut through several mountains that completely dwarfed Kurama himself. What more so you expect from the sword? It destroyed everything in it's path, and then merely the air created from the sword leveled mountains.


Matter and energy can't be created nor destroyed, if the sword exerts its energy as a shockwave, then that's the total power of the slash and thus since we've seen the total power of the shockwave inflict its damage on the environment, then you sum up that damage.  None of what you've just posted contradicts that logic in any way.

In addition to that, the sword clearly did not destroy everything it sliced, after it sliced the mountains, the mountains are still there.  If you mean destroyed everything it made contact with, then I don't see how that differs from bijuudamas as well.



Likes boss said:


> Even if the sword itself could kill a high tier DBZ character doesn't mean its destructive output would equal a SBD.


um, yes it would since half dead, cut up frieza survived a planet's explosion and thus, since no one can output planetary explosion in NV, then logically it would have to be more powerful.



Likes boss said:


> That's just no how a sword works. A sword swing from trunks can kill beings with planet level durabilty yet it doesn't destroy countries with each swing, but in turn cuts through anything that is weaker then planet level. I just don't understand how you could say a PS swing is weaker then SBD based on AoE. It's like comparing a Nucler blast to A planet level sword swing(trunks)


That would only be true if we weren't explicitly show that the power of the sword swing is exerted as a shockwave and since matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, then that's would be how we measure the power of the attack.



Likes boss said:


> You could even compare the explosion to let's say DBZ. A Super BD has a bigger explosion then Big Bang Attack yet which one is stronger?


Obviously the big bang attack, but that's because you can actually prove that by feats of people like frieza taking a planets explosion.


Finally, even if all your logic was sound, and we completely ignored any explicit statements that put the sword slashe's power on par with a normal bijuudama, none of your arguments have anything to do with showing that a sword slash is more powerful than a bijuudama.  All you are doing is throwing skepticism at my reasoning, without asserting anything yourself, and thus my arguments would be the most supported and the ones that should be accepted if there is no evidence for the alternative of my own.  

Even if I took back all of my reasoning, your arguments would only lead to the conclusion that: we don't know how powerful a sword slash is compared to a bijuudama.  A bijuudama could be magnitudes more powerful, or the other way around.  

So unless you assert something and support that assertion with an argument simply poking skepticism at another person's argument holds no relevance of disproving their argument.


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## αce (Oct 21, 2013)

> However, I have no clue where the belief that the initial Juubi is so  massively inferior to its second stage comes from. Are you basing it off  the size of the Bijuudama explosion alone?



Several things. Including the size of that explosion, in which you could see the curvature of the earth. As opposed to this bijuu dama, which did nothing except carve out a mountain range - something Hashirama is already capable of doing. You're hyping up this Juubi bijuu dama as some end all be all ability even though in the lower form, it was basically only able to carve out mountains. Hence why Naruto managed to tank it. If that was a second form bijuu dama, Naruto would be paste on the ground right now. They aren't even in the same ballpark to be honest. The second evolution of the Juubi is on another level compared to the first.

Which the manga blatantly states

Now, excluding your hype - why can't Hashirama tank it? I'm using the canonical feat here, not hyperbole. That juubi beam is nothing compared to what it is in the second form. _Nothing_. The most it did, when going for a killing blow, was carve out a mountain range. Of course the Juubi in its lower form is stronger than the Kyuubi or Hachibi alone, but that Juubi dama in the first form isn't some one hit knock out against top tiers that you're making it to be. Hence why I said that Hashirama tanking it would not be a stretch of the imagination, since he already walked through a barrage of mountain destroying abilities and came out on top.

Your entire argument is basically that because it's the almighty Juubi, they have no hope of tanking it. To which I call bullshit and a half considering we have on panel feats of its destructive capability and the first form is a disgrace to the second form.









> No it was not an "ant." Where was that said, or even demonstrated?  Kishimoto was portraying the Ten-Tails to be a game ender in any stage.  Even its silhouette that appeared in flashbacks was of its initial form.  This form was the one smacking around BM Naruto & Bee, flicking  away Bijuudama, and blasting through _multiple_ Bijuudama with its own. Why is it an "ant?"



Kishimoto did not portray the first stage of the Juubi to be a game ender, which is why the alliance was able to temporarily disable it and why the destructive out put and overall abilities that it managed to do in the first form don't even come close to what it was able to do in its second form. 

I mean, for gods sake. The alliance _without the aid of Naruto_, managed to perfectly coordinate their attacks and disable the first form. Does that sound like a god of the narutoverse to you? Because it doesn't to me. Yet when it went into the second form, they all became helpless to whatever it wanted to do. We even had to have an on panel explanation as to why the Juubi wasn't killing everyone. The second form of the Juubi makes the first form look like an ant.


They. Aren't. Even. Comparable.


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## Rocky (Oct 21, 2013)

Ace, you're not understanding me. I already said that the second stage Juubi was greater than its initial form. That is _obvious._ Let's ignore my original argument (with all the hyperbole) for a second, and just look at Hashirama & Madara's defensive ability.

What are Madara & Hashirama's greatest defensive showings?

Madara's Perfect Susano'o survived a Kurama Bijuudama
Hashirama's Mokuton: Hōbi survived the same thing
Madara's Perfect Susano'o was destroyed by Hashirama's Chōjō Kebutsu  
Hashirama's Shin Sūsenju was destroyed by Madara's Susano'o~Kyuubi combination

Now, if Kurama is a flea compared to even the initial form Juubi, then it's Bijudama should be perfectly capable of _at least_ replicating what Madara did. Unless, of course, you want to argue that the Susano'o armor bridged the gap between the Juubi & Kyuubi.

Armored Kyuubi ~ Shin Sūsenju < Initial Juubi <<< Second Stage Juubi. Unless you want to take the stance that Madara or Hashirama eclipse the Ten-Tails in firepower, then that's how it stands. Personally, I don't believe you can use blast yield to determine the power of the Stage 1 Juubi's Bijuudama, as it didn't explode...Naruto & Bee made a Bijuudama *much* larger than anything the Stage 1 Juubi's shown, yet you consider it more powerful than them, do you not? If Hashirama's statue falters after taking Armored Kurama's attacks, than how will it stand up to the Juubi's?


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## blk (Oct 22, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The overall power does change. For example, The Jubi couldn't get past the Hokage Barrier with it's massive Bijuu Bombs. BM Obito was able to rip it down with _physical strength alone_, leading Bee to note he was stronger.



So the image that you posted wasn't even about Naruto? lol.
Provide one that says the same about Naruto, otherwise you have no evidence.

Then again, a more concentrated power isn't an overall bigger one. Juubito might had just focused more power than that Juubidama in his chakra arms.




> The cloak merely lost some of its tails, which is far from obliteration. Naruto himself however remained safe inside the cloak.
> 
> And is your new argument that Kurama can tank his own Bijuudama, and Madara's protection was just for fun?
> 
> K.



The tails got obliterated, therefore he cannot tank the Juubi's laser.

This is ridicolous. You made a deductive argument, therefore the conclusion of such must be necessarily true.
The fact that i can propose an alternative, regardless of its plausibility, to "he couldn't tank the Bijuudama" means that the argument is not valid.

You also ignored the evidence that i provided.





> Good thing BM Naruto can tun off the avatar. He also wouldn't have been clone feinted, considering BM Naruto is a negative emotion sensor. BM Naruto can also create clones, and do a myriad of other things Kurama cannot.
> 
> Get the idea out of your mind that Sage Naruto is anywhere near BM Naruto.



So, BM Naruto would have won thanks to his superior versatility; ok, but we were talking about power.

50% Kurama = almost the same power as BM Naruto, deal with it.




> You mean Naruto.
> 
> Naruto ≠ 50% Kurama.



Naruto survived to that thanks to 50% Kurama's chakra.

Is your argument all based on this single, almost irrelevant, feat?





ueharakk said:


> the fact that jinchuriki's are stated to be >>> bijuus because they can control their power effectively



Kurama is seemingly capable of using his own chakra with effectively.
Also, effectiveness has nothing to do with overall amount.

Lastly, that was said by Deidara who had no idea that the Bijuu are almost as intelligent as humans.




> Hollow out a mountain is to remove a significant portion of the insides of a mountain.  The bolded is in no way some kind of counterargument and it's SM CHOU oodama rasengan.  If you want to argue that it CAN'T hollow out a mountain, please give some evidence for that assertion, else you have no counterargument.
> 
> But I can give you evidence of a SM COR having mountain hollowing power.  Sasuke's part 1 chidori which is canonically weaker than naruto's weakest rasengan in destructive power, produces craters *this big.*  Thus *naruto's palm sized rasengan* at least has that amount of destructive power.  Thus you simply scale that damage in proportion to how a *SMCOR* compares to a palm-sized rasengan and that's the amount of rock a SMCOR removes from a mountain.



It is pretty hard to scale with accuracy just by eyeballing it.

Nonetheless, i can provide strong evidences that Odama Rasengan isn't a mountain buster [1 ; 2]. Pain's summons and Madara's ribcage Susano'o haven't mountain level durability, yet they tanked it without problems.



> Nope, seeing as Naruto's FRS wasn't big enough to cut through these, *the thickness of the juubi's tails are not relevant.*



I'm pretty sure that the Juubi's tails are bigger than that.
And if you check the page, you'll see that the wings of the bird formation are the ones that went through the tails [3]. Naruto was at the very front, he couldn't have possibly touched the tails.



> I guess this is you conceding that naruto's offense of FRS spam and chou oodama frs is overwhelmingly more powerful than a single PS slash.
> 
> If kyuusanoo wants to waste its slashes and bijuudama on FRS, chou oodama FRS, and bijuu rasengans, he's welcome to do so, but that severely weakens his offense against BSM Naruto and whatever thing he's going to try and pull to counter a super senpou bijuudama.



No, this is me not wanting to continue that silly debate.
As far as i'm concerned none of the attacks you mentioned have showings comparable to these [4 ; 5].

The PS shock waves and Bijuudama will destroy these attacks and hit Naruto at the same time, their AoE is big enough.
To propose that FRS, clones and such have a place in a battle of this caliber is ridicolous.



> If he was in SM he never would have been put in that situation in the first place.
> 
> no they didn't, naruto could have easily transformed into those objects or hid behind other debri, in no way was it implied that bee's reminants were necessary.
> 
> ...



Kurama is intelligent and was easily able to produce a super Bijuudama during his encounter with Naruto, so he should be able to rapid-fire Bijuudama.
Even if he isn't, SM Naruto is still helpess against standard Bijuudama spam and the super Bijuudama.

Is this a joke? It is stated countless of times that Naruto have only 50% of Kurama's power (and shown when Minato uses his own BM), that's direct evidence, not hype.



> Full kurama having twice as much CHAKRA =/= having twice as much power.  If BM Naruto uses half of his BM chakra, is he and his jutsu half as powerful as he is with his full reserves?  Of course not.



What? Having more chakra means being capable of making more powerful attacks (by injecting more chakra in them).
Of course, one can also use that greater chakra all for a ton of weak attacks, but this still doesn't take away the fact that full Kurama would be able to create stronger Bijuudama than BM Naruto, if he wants.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Oct 22, 2013)

PS Lord Kurama does not have many ways to approach this battle. Slashes & BijuuDamas: Gee-golly.

*Way to obliterate Madara #1:*
- Opens battle with Shima & Fukasaku using a BSM Frog Call to place the opposing Lord Kurama in a temporary paralysis. Since Susanoo is not sound proof, Madara is met with the same fate aswell.
- Nukes them with a Super BijuuDama. No need to make it anymore complex.

*Way to obliterate Madara #2:*
- Opens battle with Shima & Fukasaku using a BSM Dust Cloud to blind the opposition.
- Madara swings his swords to clear the Fog and hopefully catch them in the AoE.
- Madara is then met with three Boss Toads falling on Kurama by a BSM Clone hovering overhead. 
- Naruto preps the Super BijuuDama and the clone de-summons the Gamas.
- To prevent the opposing Kurama from retaliating with a BijuuDama of his own, Shima tongue binds his mouth from a distance.

*Or*
The clone that Summoned the Toads uses his BSM 9 Chakra Tails to bind the mouth permanenttly, sacrificing himself in the process.

*Way to obliterate Madara #3*:
- Naruto starts the match off with a Super BijuuDama instead, as a simple distraction.
- PS Kurama would have no choice but to retaliate with one of his own (I'm being modest here by implying Kurama by himself can fire off a Super BijuuDama as quickly as a Kurama supported by a Jinchuuriki.)
- Naruto uses this time to blindside them on the ground with 4 clones.
- Each clone uses their 9 BSM Tails to restrain each of PS Kurama's limbs, lift him & place him on his back.
- Naruto then sends in 30 or so BSM Clones and replicate this attack:


Since one of those BSM Rasengans were grinding through Juubi's Tails:
shit tier
And managed to shatter Obito's Black Matter shield thanks to the Rookies:
shit tier
I don't see Perfect Susanoo surviving.

With Kurama exposed, he is then dispatched of with a BSM Cho Odama Fuuton: Rasenshuriken.

*Way to obliterate Madara #4:*
- BSM + Toad Army Coated in V2 Cloaks just downright take him on head to head while Shima & Fukasaku prep Frog Song.
- Frog Song is sang.
- Madara gets trapped.
- Madara is now dead.

This took me 3 minutes to type looking at my clock. I didn't even have to THINK. All these scenarios just flowed and not one is flawed. That says alot.


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## Rocky (Oct 22, 2013)

blk said:


> So the image that you posted wasn't even about Naruto? lol.
> Provide one that says the same about Naruto, otherwise you have no evidence.




It was a statement about Perfect Jinchuriki.




> The tails got obliterated, therefore he cannot tank the Juubi's laser.




Then you and I have a different definition of tank. 



> This is ridicolous. You made a deductive argument, therefore the conclusion of such must be necessarily true.
> The fact that i can propose an alternative, regardless of its plausibility, to "he couldn't tank the Bijuudama" means that the argument is not valid.
> 
> You also ignored the evidence that i provided.




I'm aware that's it's a non sequitur argument. Let's take a step back from logical fallacies and look at context. I think it's rather silly to assume Kishi had Madara shield Kurama for no reason.



> So, BM Naruto would have won thanks to his superior versatility; ok, but we were talking about power.
> 
> 50% Kurama = almost the same power as BM Naruto, deal with it.




Naruto is actually stronger in general. 50% Kurama hasn't shown Bijuudama, Chakra roars, durability, or physical strength on the level of Bijuu Mode Naruto. Not even close. How about you start providing the evidence of 50% Kurama matching Naruto.



> Naruto survived to that thanks to 50% Kurama's chakra.




Why don't you listen? Naruto's utilizes both his and Kurama's Chakra in Bijuu Mode.`


----------



## ueharakk (Oct 22, 2013)

blk said:


> Kurama is seemingly capable of using his own chakra with effectively.
> Also, effectiveness has nothing to do with overall amount.


When?  Only while he's in naruto, a jinchuriki.  While fighting outside of him, he's shown to fight like a beast. Look at when he attacked konoha, he was under obito's control, yet* the moment obito lost control* what happened to kurama?  *He got driven out of konoha.*  clearly even someone who's as unskilled at controlling a bijuu and doing it while not even in view of the bijuu as obito makes the bijuu much more powerful than it would be under its own powers.



blk said:


> Lastly, that was said by Deidara who had no idea that the Bijuu are almost as intelligent as humans.


No, Deidara's statement was as blatant an author's intent statement as it gets which directly resulted from his firsthand witness of a wild bijuu's own power and how they use it.  Bijuu's have been shown to be almost as intelligent as humans, but that doesn't mean they know how to use their powers effectively.





blk said:


> It is pretty hard to scale with accuracy just by eyeballing it.


no it's not.  SM COR is about as big as GM's head.  Scale the chidori hole to that and *it hollows out this mountain.*  And now consider *mountains can be much smaller than that* and it's a mountain hollower.



blk said:


> Nonetheless, i can provide strong evidences that Odama Rasengan isn't a mountain buster [1 ; 2]. Pain's summons and Madara's ribcage Susano'o haven't mountain level durability, yet they tanked it without problems.


Um, do you know what the definition of TANK is?  Tank means to take an attack directly and come out with little to no damage.  Seeing as the ox's entire stomach and chest were ripped apart and it didn't do anything after getting hit by OR, that's not tanking the hit.  Cereberus gets stronger the more you attack it, so using him is disingenuous. 

Seeing as neither one of those attacks are SM CHOU OODAMA RASENGAN, then what you've just posted is completely irrelevant to your argument that those beings have mountain level durability.  In addition to that, it's a mountain hollower not a mountain buster, so you don't need mountain level durability,  and finally in the last one, Madara disrupted the attack before it could exert its complete force on his susanoo thus it would also not apply.

By the way, debate honestly.  It's clear that you are trying to deceitfully equate "SM Chou oodama rasengan" to SM oodama rasengan or chou oodama rasengan just to be able to use those two points.




blk said:


> I'm pretty sure that the Juubi's tails are bigger than that.
> And if you check the page, you'll see that the wings of the bird formation are the ones that went through the tails [3]. Naruto was at the very front, he couldn't have possibly touched the tails.



Irrelevant if the juubi's tails are bigger than that, you've stated that the tails are too big for the rasengan to cut through because the rasengan is much smaller than it.  Your assertion was falsified by the FRS cutting cleanly through things much larger than itself.

Next, it's literally impossible for Naruto to not have gone through the tails himself seeing as on the page before the one you've posted, he's shown clashing *his FRS with the tails.*  Or are you saying that Naruto was in the wing?  How can he be in the wing if he and lee are *shown at the front attacking Madara and obito?*  Or are you saying that Naruto used his FRS on air?




blk said:


> No, this is me not wanting to continue that silly debate.
> As far as i'm concerned none of the attacks you mentioned have showings comparable to these [4 ; 5].
> 
> The PS shock waves and Bijuudama will destroy these attacks and hit Naruto at the same time, their AoE is big enough.
> To propose that FRS, clones and such have a place in a battle of this caliber is ridicolous.


Considering that all these are assertions that I've already countered, then that would be you guilty of ignoring my argument and thus you've tacitly conceded that BSM FRS spam and BSM Chou oodama FRS will yeild more power than a PS slash and will require PS to waste slashes or bijuudamas to get rid of them.




blk said:


> Kurama is intelligent and was easily able to produce a super Bijuudama during his encounter with Naruto, so he should be able to rapid-fire Bijuudama.
> Even if he isn't, *SM Naruto is still helpess against standard Bijuudama spam and the super Bijuudama.*


nope, being able to produce a super bijuudama and being intelligent does not warrant one the ability to rapidly fire bijuudamas when only perfect jinchurikis and bijuu who are completely under the control of someone else have shown that ability. 
The bolded has already been countered in the post you've quoted, thus an argument that you've ignored and thus a concession on that point.



blk said:


> Is this a joke? It is stated countless of times that Naruto have only 50% of Kurama's power (and shown when Minato uses his own BM), that's direct evidence, not hype.


It's stated on countless times that Naruto only has 50% KURAMA, NOT that BM Naruto = 50% Kurama or that chakra quantity is directly related to character vs character powerlevels, or that being powered by 50% kurama means naruto = 50% Kurama.




blk said:


> What? Having more chakra means being capable of making more powerful attacks (by injecting more chakra in them).


and?  No one is disputing that, what is disputed is that having twice as much chakra means your attacks are twice as powerful, or that you can make an attack twice as powerful as the maximum of a being who has 50% of your chakra.



blk said:


> Of course, one can also use that greater chakra all for a ton of weak attacks, but this still doesn't take away the fact that *full Kurama would be able to create stronger Bijuudama than BM Naruto, if he wants*.


Bolded doesn't logically follow from the unbolded.  Bee and Naruto were stated to have made their *MAXIMUM combined bijuudama*, which means neither could have made it any larger than what was shown, yet both of them still had tons of chakra left after that attack.  So no, simply having more chakra doesn't mean you can output attacks more powerful than other beings or that you can put all that chakra into an attack.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> _*SM-using Clones*_ > _*Regular Clones made in SM.*_
> 
> You're referring to the latter where I'm asking for the former: what is the highest number of clones simultaneously in SM we've seen outside of the Kurama fight?
> 
> One can't go around saying SM Naruto > 50% Kurama if SM Naruto doesn't carry the _*obscene*_ advantage of being able to make dozens of SM clones rather than the typical two (or so) in any fight that's not in his head.



SM Naruto never using more than two SM clones isn't any kind of positive argument that he can't use them if the manga states that if he doesn't have clones running about, he doesn't have a limit.  The reason why naruto doesn't use tajuu kagebunshin in sennin mode is because he either has an enormous amount of comrades around him (vs madara, vs juubi madara obito), he's just there for support (vs son goku, vs neo pain rikudou) or clones wouldn't have made a difference (teleporting against juubito).  

And if Naruto is in sennin mode, he CAN'T make base clones as he's using senjutsu to make clones and thus the senjutsu version of a shadow clone is a sage clone.  In addition to that, we've seen in the kurama fight that if the real naruto's chakra is converted into sage chakra, *all of his base clones* are *transformed into sage clones.*  And that's backed up by *tobirama's explanation about how the main body's manipulation of chakra affects all the shadow clones.*


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## Jak N Blak (Oct 22, 2013)

Wait, people are still arguing Naruto can't make more than 2 Sage Mode clones?
I need to check the calender. I must be in 2009 or something. To think ignorance on this topic could last for 5 fucking years. Good lord Jesus.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Oct 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The reason why naruto doesn't use tajuu kagebunshin in sennin mode is because he either has an enormous amount of comrades around him (vs madara, vs juubi madara obito), he's just there for support (vs son goku, vs neo pain rikudou) or clones wouldn't have made a difference (teleporting against juubito).



SM has no collateral damage. SM clones would have the strength to toss around Son Goku and completely negate the numbers disadvantage against Obito's Jins. Instances where X clearly wouldn't have made a difference is redundant.



ueharakk said:


> And if Naruto is in sennin mode, he CAN'T make base clones as he's using senjutsu to make clones and thus the senjutsu version of a shadow clone is a sage clone.  In addition to that, we've seen in the kurama fight that if the real naruto's chakra is converted into sage chakra, *all of his base clones* are *transformed into sage clones.*  And that's backed up by *tobirama's explanation about how the main body's manipulation of chakra affects all the shadow clones.*





So, the only legitimate reason he never simply stays home gathering natural energy and lets an army of SM clones stomp out Akatsuki or something is PIS/CIS.

I can live with that. 

What I can't live with, is the over-simplification that SM Naruto > 50% Kurama because he wouldn't have as much, if any, success without it. 



Jak N Blak said:


> Wait, people are still arguing Naruto can't make more than 2 Sage Mode clones?
> I need to check the calender. I must be in 2009 or something. To think ignorance on this topic could last for 5 fucking years. Good lord Jesus.



Congratulations for winning the "Acting Like A Dick for The Most Fucking Trivial Thing Ever" award. Would you like to make a speech?


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## ueharakk (Oct 22, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> SM has no collateral damage.


that's not relevant.  



Kenpachi TZ said:


> SM clones would have the strength to toss around Son Goku and completely negate the numbers disadvantage against Obito's Jins. Instances where X clearly wouldn't have made a difference is redundant.


By this logic, naruto would have used 3 sm clones to do just that.  However we see he doesn't do that so that's in no way some kind of positive argument on your part that naruto can use only 3 sm clones at a time.





Kenpachi TZ said:


> So, the only legitimate reason he never simply stays home gathering natural energy and lets an army of SM clones stomp out Akatsuki or something is PIS/CIS.


an army of SM clones wouldn't be able to stomp akatsuki as the more he makes the more divided their chakra becomes meaning they wouldn't be able to pull off things like chou oodama rasengans or even normal rasengans if they are divided enough.  And akatsuki has guys like deva path who can oneshot all of them with a large shinra tensei, deidara who has massive AoE attacks, Itachi who can amaterasu sweep a lot of them.  And the fact that naruto expends chakra to hold the technique.  And the fact that naruto will be a sitting duck if he has to gather SM chakra again and again to do so.




Kenpachi TZ said:


> I can live with that.
> 
> What I can't live with, is the over-simplification that SM Naruto > 50% Kurama because he wouldn't have as much, if any, success without it.


I have no idea what you are talking about here.  The only time I bring up SM Naruto > 50% Kurama is to combat arguments based on almost pure hype, usually either downplaying SM Naruto saying he's not on the same tier as X character or downplaying BM Naruto saying he's only = 50% Kurama.

In addition to that, since you haven't addressed any of the points that my argument has brought to show that SM naruto is more than capable of making as many SM clones as he wants if he doesn't have others gathering natural energy, then I'm guessing you concede those points and thus it logically follows that he is capable of doing such.


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## ueharakk (Oct 23, 2013)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Why else would collateral damage be irrelevant when you're discussing the presence of Naruto's comrades? SM won't hurt them, so where's the drawback?


because he doesn't need a numbers advantage when he already has superior numbers by the thousands.  Like the fight against kakuzu, he's not going to waste chakra that he could be using for powerful attacks like FRS on clones when he has an army on his side.



Kenpachi TZ said:


> I wasn't aware I was still arguing the matter after my previous post is me either being half-serious and agreeing with you.


dude, you know how communicating online is right?  Sarcasm, not so serious posts, and stuff like that are hard to communicate or receive.  My bad if i didn't catch that.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Oct 23, 2013)

Madara babyshakes. PS Kyuubi is not only 100% chakra but it has PS, which could already match BM Naruto's power.

50% BM "tanking" a Juubi beam (unquantified level of power, just because it is the Juubi doesn't mean it's stronger than every other attack we've seen) took out all of his tails, that's not tanking at all.

You'd be stupid to believe that 100% Kyuubi can't do the same thing, and that 50% Kyuubi just so happened to be able to do it but not full Kyuubi with the strongest defensive jutsu we've ever seen.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 23, 2013)

*Spoiler*: _New chapter_ 



And now the new chapter reveals to us that the Naruto we've been seeing thus far isn't just a combination of himself and Kurama, but rather, with chakra added in from the other tailed beasts as well.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Oct 23, 2013)

Really? We're gonna go there now? Haha.

Their chakras were mostly shelved off in a separate area of Naruto's mind most likely.


----------



## blk (Oct 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It was a statement about Perfect Jinchuriki.



No, it was about Juubito, it doesn't necessarily applies to every Jinchuuriki.





> Then you and I have a different definition of tank.



If you think that sacrificing an arm for survive to a bullet means being able to tank a bullet, then yes, we have a different definition of tank.

The Juubi's laser is more than what BM Naruto can _actually_ tank.



> I'm aware that's it's a non sequitur argument. Let's take a step back from logical fallacies and look at context. I think it's rather silly to assume Kishi had Madara shield Kurama for no reason.



For first, Madara had to activate PS in order to survive to the Bijuudama himself.
So, since he had to activate PS anyway, he might have coated the Kyuubi simply out of convenience (for not waste more time for coat the beast after, and prevent Hashi from putting it at sleep).
There are a big number of possible reasons for why Madara coated Kurama in that instance, there is really no reason for prefer yours over any other.

And as i wrote before, the six tailed 50% Kurama was able to tank a Bijuudama and CT without a problem. 
Against SM Naruto it tanked a ton of big rasengans and two FRS without showing any significant damage.
Not to mention that in few instances he wasn't afraid of shooting a Bijuudama to very close targets.



> Naruto is actually stronger in general. 50% Kurama hasn't shown Bijuudama, Chakra roars, durability, or physical strength on the level of Bijuu Mode Naruto. Not even close. How about you start providing the evidence of 50% Kurama matching Naruto.



Here you go:

- 50% Kyuubi's super Bijuudama, while being significantly weakened [1];

- 50% four tail strength [2 ; 3];

- 50% eight tail strength [4] (yes, partially countering CT's pull is an insane strength feat).

It is simply absurd to argue that BM Naruto has a lot more power than _his very own source_. Pure Naruto wank.



> Why don't you listen? Naruto's utilizes both his and Kurama's Chakra in Bijuu Mode.`



Naruto's chakra is nothing compared to Kurama's.

Now, i would like you to remember that this thread is _100% Kurama fused with Madara's PS_ vs BSM Naruto.
Now that i've shown you that 50% Kurama has pretty much the same amount of power of BSM Naruto, you should realize how much more power a 100% Kurama has than him.





ueharakk said:


> When?  Only while he's in naruto, a jinchuriki.  While fighting outside of him, he's shown to fight like a beast. Look at when he attacked konoha, he was under obito's control, yet* the moment obito lost control* what happened to kurama?  *He got driven out of konoha.*  clearly even someone who's as unskilled at controlling a bijuu and doing it while not even in view of the bijuu as obito makes the bijuu much more powerful than it would be under its own powers.
> 
> No, Deidara's statement was as blatant an author's intent statement as it gets which directly resulted from his firsthand witness of a wild bijuu's own power and how they use it.  Bijuu's have been shown to be almost as intelligent as humans, but that doesn't mean they know how to use their powers effectively.



Just because they pushed him back, it means that he was fighting like a beast?
How do you know that they weren't preparing an attack that would have pushed Kurama back even under Obito's control? Or perhaps it is because when the control was broken, Kurama needed some second for return to his senses.

Kurama hasn't really shown to be particularly ineffective with his power.



> no it's not.  SM COR is about as big as GM's head.  Scale the chidori hole to that and *it hollows out this mountain.*  And now consider *mountains can be much smaller than that* and it's a mountain hollower.
> 
> Um, do you know what the definition of TANK is?  Tank means to take an attack directly and come out with little to no damage.  Seeing as the ox's entire stomach and chest were ripped apart and it didn't do anything after getting hit by OR, that's not tanking the hit.  Cereberus gets stronger the more you attack it, so using him is disingenuous.
> 
> ...



If you consider that a mountain, then i guess that i can agree.
I also agree with your definition of tank.

That Madara disrupted the attack before that it could exert its complete force is unclear.

What? Dude, i don't pay attention to these details, to me those rasengans all seem to be the same thing.



> Irrelevant if the juubi's tails are bigger than that, you've stated that the tails are too big for the rasengan to cut through because the rasengan is much smaller than it.  Your assertion was falsified by the FRS cutting cleanly through things much larger than itself.
> 
> Next, it's literally impossible for Naruto to not have gone through the tails himself seeing as on the page before the one you've posted, he's shown clashing *his FRS with the tails.*  Or are you saying that Naruto was in the wing?  How can he be in the wing if he and lee are *shown at the front attacking Madara and obito?*  Or are you saying that Naruto used his FRS on air?



Just because the FRS was able to cut completely that kind of mountains, it doesn't mean that it is able to cut bigger things. It certainly has limits.

I honestly don't know where you see that Naruto is clashing with the Juubi's tails.
In the next page, bottom right panel, you can clearly see that the front of the formation passed in between the tails.



> Considering that all these are assertions that I've already countered, then that would be you guilty of ignoring my argument and thus you've tacitly conceded that BSM FRS spam and BSM Chou oodama FRS will yeild more power than a PS slash and will require PS to waste slashes or bijuudamas to get rid of them.



There is no need to waste anything, even if the attacks are directed at Naruto the AoE will clear the clones.
Moreover, you are ignoring that making clones itself requires time (even if not much); while Naruto will do that PS Kyuubi will be spamming slashes and Bijuudama.



> nope, being able to produce a super bijuudama and being intelligent does not warrant one the ability to rapidly fire bijuudamas when only perfect jinchurikis and bijuu who are completely under the control of someone else have shown that ability.
> The bolded has already been countered in the post you've quoted, thus an argument that you've ignored and thus a concession on that point.



With "standard Bijuudama spam" i meant a continous use of standard Bijuudama.
When did you countered the assertion that SM Naruto would generally be helpless against a super Bijuudama?



> It's stated on countless times that Naruto only has 50% KURAMA, *NOT that BM Naruto = 50% Kurama* or that chakra quantity is directly related to character vs character powerlevels, or that being powered by 50% kurama means naruto = 50% Kurama.
> 
> and?  No one is disputing that, what is disputed is that having twice as much chakra means your attacks are twice as powerful, or that you can make an attack twice as powerful as the maximum of a being who has 50% of your chakra.
> 
> Bolded doesn't logically follow from the unbolded.  Bee and Naruto were stated to have made their *MAXIMUM combined bijuudama*, which means neither could have made it any larger than what was shown, yet both of them still had tons of chakra left after that attack.  So no, simply having more chakra doesn't mean you can output attacks more powerful than other beings or that you can put all that chakra into an attack.



I never stated the bold in a general sense, my comparisons were always made in the context of power (or chakra quantity if you prefer).
At this point, i've wrote several times that, even though BM Naruto might be more efficent, more versatile, more whatever, _his overall amount of power_ is still the one of 50% Kurama (well, plus his own chakra, but that doesn't really count considering how small is in comparison and that the chakra that sustains the BM is the one of Kurama).

Maybe they limited themselves to that Bijuudama because of lack of time, or because they didn't wanted to consume all of their chakra just in case, not necessarily because it's their limit.

But even if that was the case, 100% Kurama would be able to use such powerful attack more times than Naruto, which is still a considerable advantage.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 23, 2013)

blk said:


> No, it was about Juubito, it doesn't necessarily applies to every Jinchuuriki.




It's not about "who," it's about "what." The Juubi's Jinchuriki is more powerful than the Juubi, as his power is more focused. It's used more efficiently, per say. Considering Naruto's showings are much greater than 50% Kurama's, it makes alot of sense. 

Bijuu Mode Naruto is a fusion of Kurama & Naruto. Kurama can't move faster than Ei, Kurama can't slice through the Juubi's limbs with Rasenshuriken, and actually, 50% Kurama is much smaller than Naruto's avatar. 



> If you think that sacrificing an arm for survive to a bullet means being able to tank a bullet, then yes, we have a different definition of tank.
> 
> The Juubi's laser is more than what BM Naruto can _actually_ tank.




Except no. An arm is not an expendable guard to us humans, but Naruto's Chakra tails are to him.



> There are a big number of possible reasons for why Madara coated Kurama in that instance, there is really no reason for prefer yours over any other.




Ok. If you want to hold this belief, I can't disprove it. 



> Here you go:
> 
> - 50% Kyuubi's super Bijuudama, while being significantly weakened [1];
> 
> ...




That Bijuudama doesn't compare to BM Naruto's. His was much, much bigger. 

KN4 & KN8 are _Naruto's_ feats....not Kurama's. I'm asking for showings of the actual fox.




> It is simply absurd to argue that BM Naruto has a lot more power than _his very own source_. Pure Naruto wank.




It's funny, because Jubito has alot more power that his source. What you are claiming as "absurd" is actually a present theme in the Manga. 




> Naruto's chakra is nothing compared to Kurama's.




Naruto was able to hand out _his_ Chakra to the entire Shinobi Alliance. That's tens of thousands of people. 



> Now that i've shown you that 50% Kurama has pretty much the same amount of power of BSM Naruto, you should realize how much more power a 100% Kurama has than him.




Please do show me these 100% Kurama feats that even make him BM Naruto-level.


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## ueharakk (Oct 23, 2013)

blk said:


> Just because they pushed him back, it means that he was fighting like a beast?
> *How do you know that they weren't preparing an attack that would have pushed Kurama back even under Obito's control? Or perhaps it is because when the control was broken, Kurama needed some second for return to his senses*.


If you want to argue the bolded, then you have to give evidence for them, I don't have to refute a negative.

And it's not "just because they pushed him back"  it's the fact that immediately after obito lost control, kurama gets booted out of konoha which is perfectly in line with the explanation that bijuus can't use their powers effectively on their own.



blk said:


> Kurama hasn't really shown to be particularly ineffective with his power.


yes he has considering how long he takes to make a bijuduama against SM Naruto, and how he lost to naruto.  And well, the fact that there's a noticable decrease in his combat effectiveness once obito loses control, the fact that bijuu are stated to be unable to control their power effectively on multiple occasion etc.




blk said:


> If you consider that a mountain, then i guess that i can agree.
> I also agree with your definition of tank.
> 
> That Madara disrupted the attack before that it could exert its complete force is unclear.
> ...


If you disrupt the user, you disrupt the rasengan.  Kabuto and Kurama have done this to naruto before, madara did the exact same thing by leveling up his susanoo.

Well, I guess I'll take your word for it.  To me the size difference between a *SM COR* and a *SM OR* is just too enormous for me to subconsciously equate them.




blk said:


> Just because the FRS was able to cut completely that kind of mountains, it doesn't mean that it is able to cut bigger things. It certainly has limits.


Sure it has its limits, however you were the one who asserted that FRS's limit is smaller than the tails, thus you'd have to back up that assertion with an argument.  I've shown that FRS is able to cut through things much larger than itself, so it cutting through the juubi's tails is supported by that.



blk said:


> I honestly don't know where you see that Naruto is clashing with the Juubi's tails.
> In the next page, bottom right panel, you can clearly see that the front of the formation passed in between the tails.


*In this panel,* naruto shoves the FRS in his right hand into something.  Then the next panel we see the tails cut and then the next panel we see the FRS in his right hand is gone.  I don't see what else naruto would have done with that FRS, he thrust it forward, we see the juubi's tail right by him when he does it.  How do you explain those things?




blk said:


> There is no need to waste anything, even if the attacks are directed at Naruto the AoE will clear the clones.
> Moreover, you are ignoring that making clones itself requires time (even if not much); while Naruto will do that PS Kyuubi will be spamming slashes and Bijuudama.


Naruto making clones in the avatar doesn't take away from what the avatar itself can do, so i don't see how him making clones (which is pretty much instant) will affect him in any way.  And it doesn't matter if the AoE clears clones that are on the battlefield, if kyuusanoo has to waste attacks on countering FRS spams and COFRS, that's all the less firepower its going to be able to use against the real naruto.  In addition to that, I don't see how those clones can't IDK spread out on the battlefield or stay in naruto's chakra tails and launch attacks that require a counter.




blk said:


> With "standard Bijuudama spam" i meant a continous use of standard Bijuudama.
> When did you countered the assertion that SM Naruto would generally be helpless against a super Bijuudama?


when I said he hits kurama with SM FRS before Kurama makes it considering how long it took kurama to even use a normal bijuudama.  I also could say that tajuu kagebunshin counters super bijuudama since even if the dama's AoE is gigantic, unless kurama fires it directly at the ground most likely defeating himself as well, it's not going to hit clones or the real naruto who's on the other side of kurama.  




blk said:


> I never stated the bold in a general sense, my comparisons were always made in the context of power (or chakra quantity if you prefer).
> At this point, i've wrote several times that, even though BM Naruto might be more efficent, more versatile, more whatever, _his overall amount of power_ is still the one of 50% Kurama (well, plus his own chakra, but that doesn't really count considering how small is in comparison and that the chakra that sustains the BM is the one of Kurama).


But you can't state that his overall amount of power, you'd have to state his "chakra quantity" is still around 50% Kurama's.  



blk said:


> Maybe they limited themselves to that Bijuudama because of lack of time, or because they didn't wanted to consume all of their chakra just in case, not necessarily because it's their limit.


Well, if you want to assert that despite the manga blatantly saying "make it as big as you can" without mentioning anything about time being a factor, then you'd have to back it up with an argument.  I mean, pretty much any explicit statement in the manga can be deemed not necessarily true, but that doesn't mean that it isn't most likely true.



blk said:


> But even if that was the case, 100% Kurama would be able to use such powerful attack more times than Naruto, which is still a considerable advantage.


I don't doubt it's an advantage, but I do doubt if it's a considerable advantage considering these fights where mountain range busters are thrown around aren't going to end up as battles of attrition, and BSM Naruto's max bijuudama is going to be stronger than BM Naruto's max bijuudama in rough proportion to what *Minato's rasengan* is to *this rasengan.*


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## blk (Oct 26, 2013)

Rocky said:


> It's not about "who," it's about "what." The Juubi's Jinchuriki is more powerful than the Juubi, as his power is more focused. It's used more efficiently, per say. Considering Naruto's showings are much greater than 50% Kurama's, it makes alot of sense.
> 
> Bijuu Mode Naruto is a fusion of Kurama & Naruto. Kurama can't move faster than Ei, Kurama can't slice through the Juubi's limbs with Rasenshuriken, and actually, 50% Kurama is much smaller than Naruto's avatar.



The Juubi's Jinchuuriki is more _efficient_ than the Juubi, not more powerfull.
The overall amount of power doesn't change, the efficiency does.

Kurama is not able to utilize the Shunshin (that Naruto cannot use while in the avatar) or the FRS (which didn't cut the Juubi's tail). So, useless points.
From when is BM Naruto much bigger than Kurama?




> Except no. An arm is not an expendable guard to us humans, but Naruto's Chakra tails are to him.



You misunderstood the analogy.
Naruto didn't tanked the Juubi's laser because the part of shroud that got in contact with it got completely destroyed; this means that the shroud _is not durable enough for take the laser._
The Juubi's laser destroys it, the only thing Naruto can do is to sacrifice a part of it in order to survive.




> Ok. If you want to hold this belief, I can't disprove it.



But i disproved yours by showing that it is not logically valid.




> That Bijuudama doesn't compare to BM Naruto's. His was much, much bigger.
> 
> KN4 & KN8 are _Naruto's_ feats....not Kurama's. I'm asking for showings of the actual fox.



Nope, Kurama's Bijuudama is actually bigger [1 ; 2].
Top right panel of the first link for see the size of Naruto's Bijuudama (since he made one on par with that), bottom right panel of the second link for Kurama's Bijuudama: even if not by much, the latter's Bijuudama is bigger.
At the very worst they are about the same size, but certainly Naruto's Bijuudama isn't "much much bigger".
And please, note that it was a very weakened 50% Kurama, and in this thread we are talking about a fresh 100% one.

Sure, it was Naruto, not the fox at all to do those things [3].
And of course, as always, let's ignore the fact that all those things were done purely thanks to the Kyuubi's own power.

Also, you continue to ignore all the durability feats of his battle with SM Naruto.



> It's funny, because Jubito has alot more power that his source. What you are claiming as "absurd" is actually a present theme in the Manga.



More efficient <> more powerful.
And what about Gaara? He needed to give full control to the Shukaku in order to not limit his power.



> Naruto was able to hand out _his_ Chakra to the entire Shinobi Alliance. That's tens of thousands of people.
> 
> 
> Please do show me these 100% Kurama feats that even make him BM Naruto-level.



Read more carefully, it was also the Kyuubi's chakra [4 ; 5].
Though, i won't be surprised if a fanboy like you will start to argue that Naruto has almost as much chakra as Kurama.

I have already shown feats of 50% Kurama's power, double that and you have 100% Kurama.






ueharakk said:


> If you want to argue the bolded, then you have to give evidence for them, I don't have to refute a negative.
> 
> And it's not "just because they pushed him back"  it's the fact that immediately after obito lost control, kurama gets booted out of konoha which is perfectly in line with the explanation that bijuus can't use their powers effectively on their own.
> 
> yes he has considering how long he takes to make a bijuduama against SM Naruto, and how he lost to naruto.  And well, the fact that there's a noticable decrease in his combat effectiveness once obito loses control, the fact that bijuu are stated to be unable to control their power effectively on multiple occasion etc.



Those were questions, not claims.
I really don't see any reason for accept your interpretation of that event.

He made the super Bijuudama quickly enough, actually.
Also, in Gaara's case it was the exact contrary, the former had to give to his beast full control in order to not limit his power.



> If you disrupt the user, you disrupt the rasengan.  Kabuto and Kurama have done this to naruto before, madara did the exact same thing by leveling up his susanoo.
> 
> Well, I guess I'll take your word for it.  To me the size difference between a *SM COR* and a *SM OR* is just too enormous for me to subconsciously equate them.



If you look at the page next to the one of the second link, you'll see that the Rasengan become almost as big as the one in the first link.
I'm not even sure if those jutsu are really different and it's not just Kishimoto being inconsistent with the sizes.



> Sure it has its limits, however you were the one who asserted that FRS's limit is smaller than the tails, thus you'd have to back up that assertion with an argument.  I've shown that FRS is able to cut through things much larger than itself, so it cutting through the juubi's tails is supported by that.
> 
> 
> *In this panel,* naruto shoves the FRS in his right hand into something.  Then the next panel we see the tails cut and then the next panel we see the FRS in his right hand is gone.  I don't see what else naruto would have done with that FRS, he thrust it forward, we see the juubi's tail right by him when he does it.  How do you explain those things?



Ok, i accept that.

In the first panel he still has the two FRS, but in the second his left hand is already empty. We don't see him throwing that FRS, nor anything that implies that (or at least, i don't see it). But then, he has only the one in the left hand.... i really don't know, it seems an error.

Though, one thing is clear enough for me: the front of the formation passed in between the tails, it never touched them [1] (if it isn't clear in the first panel, in the third you can see it clearly).




> Naruto making clones in the avatar doesn't take away from what the avatar itself can do, so i don't see how him making clones (which is pretty much instant) will affect him in any way.  And it doesn't matter if the AoE clears clones that are on the battlefield, if kyuusanoo has to waste attacks on countering FRS spams and COFRS, that's all the less firepower its going to be able to use against the real naruto.  In addition to that, I don't see how those clones can't IDK spread out on the battlefield or stay in naruto's chakra tails and launch attacks that require a counter.
> 
> when I said he hits kurama with SM FRS before Kurama makes it considering how long it took kurama to even use a normal bijuudama.  I also could say that tajuu kagebunshin counters super bijuudama since even if the dama's AoE is gigantic, unless kurama fires it directly at the ground most likely defeating himself as well, it's not going to hit clones or the real naruto who's on the other side of kurama.



Doesn't Naruto have to directly control the avatar? To use a Bijuudama, for example, he needs to put his arms in a certain position [2].
He can't make clones and do Bijuudama at the same time, so the moment that he makes the hand seals for the clones PS Kyuubi's Bijuudama and slashes will be coming already.

Kurama doesn't seem that slow at making the super Bijuudama [3].



> But you can't state that his overall amount of power, you'd have to state his "chakra quantity" is still around 50% Kurama's.
> 
> Well, if you want to assert that despite the manga blatantly saying "make it as big as you can" without mentioning anything about time being a factor, then you'd have to back it up with an argument.  I mean, pretty much any explicit statement in the manga can be deemed not necessarily true, but that doesn't mean that it isn't most likely true.
> 
> I don't doubt it's an advantage, but I do doubt if it's a considerable advantage considering these fights where mountain range busters are thrown around aren't going to end up as battles of attrition, and BSM Naruto's max bijuudama is going to be stronger than BM Naruto's max bijuudama in rough proportion to what *Minato's rasengan* is to *this rasengan.*



Ok.

If the amount of chakra that can be put into a Bijuudama has a limit, then the senjutsu shouldn't power it up more than said limit.


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## Fiiction (Jan 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is this for real ? Naruto gets obliterated.
> 
> PS Kyuubi can spam shuriken Bijuudamas, he is much bigger and fuckloads durable than BSM Naruto.



Exactly this.


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## ARGUS (Jan 27, 2014)

PS Kyuubi wrecks him 
hes got more chakra,, a better defense and with PS slashes and TBB,, his offense is also better


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 27, 2014)

How this is even debatable is beyond me. PS 100% Kurama dominates 50% without PS armour Kurama. The only thing BSM Naruto has over it is speed, everything else ranging from durability, Stamina, size and firepower is BY FAR superior to BSM Naruto. The Jubi laser attack eh? I will have you know that Hachibi's tentacle also tanked the laser..........This is a stomp.


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## The World (Jan 27, 2014)

Jinchuuriki > regular Bijuu


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## Kai (Jan 27, 2014)

The World said:


> Jinchuuriki > regular Bijuu


Regular Bijuu > Jinchuuriki of half that bijuu


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 27, 2014)

The World said:


> Jinchuuriki > regular Bijuu



Jinchuriki 100% > Regular Biju 100%
Jinchuriki 50% < Regular Biju 100%
Jinchuriki 50% <<<< Regular Biju 100% clad with PS armour


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jan 27, 2014)

so the logic of naruto fans is that naruto tanks everything because he survived the juubis laser which only destroyed a mountain range? that is the most pathetic argument that i have ever seen in my life. nobody supporting naruto in this thread has any sense whatsoever, nor can they debate.







madara already did this with his perfect susano, kurama can do this with bijudama spam, hashirama can already do this with chojo kebetsu. both hashirama and madara already did this when they clashed.

destroying mountains is a very generic feat for top tiers.






there is no difference between narutos kurama avatar and 50% kurama. 

narutos kurama avatar is kurama as stated by naruto himself.

*Spoiler*: __ 








the same avatar that used all those bijudamas that are wanked by fans to be able to destroy everything was separated from naruto. the kurama avatar isnt just a chakra construct. it is kurama. all of its feats are transitive between 50% kurama with a jinchuriki and 50% kurama without one.






50% kurama survived the juubis laser, 100% kurama survives by extension, madaras PS outright tanks it as its more durable than both, shinsuusenju outright tanks it as well.

naruto gets beaten with no effort. the physical strength of 50% kurama isnt touching any susano user as he couldnt even break the chains of gedo mazo that were broken by a sword from a low level susano.
there is no "naruto will restrain susano". he cant do so anyway purely because of the size difference.

any bijudama that naruto fires gets tanked with no damage or is countered by a bigger one.
PS protected its user from 4 juubidamas and there was still a susano aura leftover which wouldnt be the case if the construct was completely destroyed:



50% kurama then gets mutilated by PS slashes and when kurama mode can no longer be sustained, naruto gets one shotted by a PS slash or a single bijudama.


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