# Meta Knight (Kirby) vs. Sephiroth (Final Fantasy)



## KevinVonDoom (Jul 21, 2015)

Im just gonna post a couple of VS matches. Im rooting for Meta Knight since hes actually quality (^:


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 21, 2015)

Dude this is like the 4th thread you have made in 5 minutes, slow down 

That said I am just waiting for Sephiroth's supernova to be accepted as legit. That should be fun


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## Solrac (Jul 21, 2015)

Meta Knight smashes the pretty boy's face in.


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## Regicide (Jul 21, 2015)

Well, we've recently vindicated Supernova. 

But Sephiroth doesn't really appear to be capable of outputting its destructive power in any efficient manner, so it's probably a moot point.

Still,  that a weaker character than Sephiroth is capable of a quarter of what he got for , which would be well beyond anything demonstrated in Kirby in terms of destructive power.

Meta Knight has a small speed advantage, being FTL to Sephiroth's relativistic, and a smaller size to make use of it. But, not sure if he can make up the difference in strength even while concentrating his attacks with a sword.

Even saying he can, I'd still give the match to Seph more often than not.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 21, 2015)

It won't be an estimate when I can bother to look at the frame by frame

For now, all I can tell you is that Typhon flips an Earth sized planet 180 degrees (as opposed to the 360 from Link's feat) in about a second without knowing how large a fraction of it the feat actually took place in


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 22, 2015)

Wait a minute, can't Chaos Vincent tank the supernova too? The surface area of his body is much bigger than, say, Cloud or Cait Sith's 

Not particularly relevant here, just wondering how the durability would come out there


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 22, 2015)

Doesn't matter level

I'm not working out the surface area of someone slightly taller than average people


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## Vivi Ornitier (Jul 22, 2015)

He has big ass wings and shit though


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## Expelsword (Jul 22, 2015)

Regicide said:


> ,



WHAT THE HEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLL.


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

SN is a willpower feat. The universe it takes place in is born from Safer's will the instant he activates the attack and vanishes afterward. 

There's no point in calculating anything, as the attack is one big showing of Safer's (will)power.


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## Featherine (Jul 22, 2015)

This Universe bullshit again


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

True nonsense: Sephiroth busts and recreates the actual Solar System of FF7.

SN might use existing parallel universes, but there's no mention of them in The Compilation. On the other hand, Bahamut Sin materializrs from the Lifestream, when Kadaj symmons him.

The facts at hand point towards those universes being created on the spot.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

how the hell does summoning Bahamut equate to making a universe?


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

It demonstrates that FF7 summons, let alone their dimensions/universes, don't preexist. SN works the same way.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

That

just means that summoning in FF7 is basically some measure of warping reality

That doesn't remotely constitute anything on the level of creating an entire universe

you're just using the materia as a catalyst to give form to the summon

that's all

no universe bullshit anywhere


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## AgentAAA (Jul 22, 2015)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> That
> 
> just means that summoning in FF7 is basically some measure of warping reality
> 
> ...



you're trying to reason with someone who's claimed Sephiroth's speed is at "transcends the idea of speed" level.
You might not want to bother here.


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## Red Angel (Jul 22, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> you're trying to reason with someone who's claimed Sephiroth's speed is at "transcends the idea of speed" level.
> You might not want to bother here.



Because of a "generic teleportation ability" or some shit


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## AgentAAA (Jul 22, 2015)

Skarbrand said:


> Because of a "generic teleportation ability" or some shit



to quote the exact argument "Sephiroth can teleport but when he fought cloud at the end of AC he didn't use it so he must just always be faster than teleportation now.".


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jul 22, 2015)

Speed beyond the concept of speed

more fast than what fast is


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## Adamant soul (Jul 22, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> to quote the exact argument "Sephiroth can teleport but when he fought cloud at the end of AC he didn't use it so he must just always be faster than teleportation now.".



:rofl
He didn't use it so he must be beyond it, yeah because it TOTALLY couldn't be that, because Cloud is his equal physically and knows Sephiroth can teleport, it simply wasn't useful in that fight.

Anyway, as much as I'd love the idea of a Kirby character wiping the floor with Sephiroth, I do believe Sephiroth should win this.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 22, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> :rofl
> He didn't use it so he must be beyond it, yeah because it TOTALLY couldn't be that, because Cloud is his equal physically and knows Sephiroth can teleport, it simply wasn't useful in that fight.
> 
> Anyway, as much as I'd love the idea of a Kirby character wiping the floor with Sephiroth, I do believe Sephiroth should win this.



yeah. no way seph should really lose this unless we really lowball him, honestly.


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> :rofl
> He didn't use it so he must be beyond it, yeah because it TOTALLY couldn't be that, because Cloud is his equal physically and knows Sephiroth can teleport, it simply wasn't useful in that fight.


The ability would give Sephiroth an upper hand in that fight, which is a stalemate for the most part. Moreover, holding back would defeat the very purpose of his return (vengeance on Cloud). 




GiveRobert20dollars said:


> That
> 
> just means that summoning in FF7 is basically some measure of warping reality
> 
> ...


Interesting, however:



			
				Crisis Core Complete Guide said:
			
		

> *Summoned Beasts*
> 
> Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts *draw their targets into their own unique space* in order to attack. However, Advent Children?s Bahamut Tremor, was a special summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.


Source: 




GiveRobert20dollars said:


> That
> 
> just means that summoning in FF7 is basically some measure of warping reality
> 
> ...


Interesting, however:



			
				Crisis Core Complete Guide said:
			
		

> *Summoned Beasts*
> 
> Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts *draw their targets into their own unique space* in order to attack. However, Advent Children?s Bahamut Tremor, was a special summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.


Source:


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## Qinglong (Jul 22, 2015)

That says fuck all about creating a universe


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

The summoning of Bahamut Sin demonstrates that FF7 summons materialize form the LS, so how could their dimensions preexist?


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## Adamant soul (Jul 22, 2015)

Megatron said:


> The ability would give Sephiroth an upper hand in that fight, which is a stalemate for the most part. Moreover, holding back would defeat the very purpose of his return (vengeance on Cloud).



Except, as I said, Cloud is Sephiroth's equal physically and KNOWS he can teleport. Knowing about the teleport in advance really hinders its usefulness since Cloud would be expecting it and would react accordingly.

He didn't use it because it wasn't useful against Cloud, not because he's somehow transcended the need for it. That's ridiculous.


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## Qinglong (Jul 22, 2015)

Again

that says fuck all about creating a universe


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## AgentAAA (Jul 22, 2015)

fuck, if Megatron actually hasn't given up on that:
4 reasons sephiroth wouldn't teleport that has nothing to do with speed:

1. Teleportation requires magic power, something sephiroth couldn't squander.

2. Sephiroth in particular did feel the need to show his superiority over cloud in this battle - Thus, he may have been purposely not doing it to show he doesn't need to in order to defeat cloud, that his own strength and speed was enough.

3. Probably the easiest possible solution: The Animators felt that teleportation wouldn't add to the fight scene they constructed, so they chose to have sephiroth engage in CIS, as many characters in FF have done in the past, and not use his teleportation.

4. because, as has been posited before, teleportation is fairly useless when your opponent's blade will be after your ass the minute you teleport, and is a waste of good magical energy.


fuck, if we go with "they didn't use their tele in the fight so that means they're even faster", We'd have SC high tiers, Jaina proudmoore, anyone of worth in diablo, and fucking Nightcrawler as transcending speed, given they all have done fights without using teleport even if it's a good idea.


Fuck, is this just for speed, or can I say someone's transcended hax or DC if they choose not to use hax or their best DC in a fight?


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> Except, as I said, Cloud is Sephiroth's equal physically and KNOWS he can teleport. Knowing about the teleport in advance really hinders its usefulness since Cloud would be expecting it and would react accordingly.
> 
> He didn't use it because it wasn't useful against Cloud, not because he's somehow transcended the need for it. That's ridiculous.


Cloud never sees him use teleportation unless he uses it it at the end of FF7, as Bizarro/Safer.

Starting with Safer, Sephiroth exists on a different plane, so... When you're a "ghost", you're not exactly bound by space and time.




AgentAAA said:


> fuck, if Megatron actually hasn't given up on that:
> 4 reasons sephiroth wouldn't teleport that has nothing to do with speed:
> 
> 1. Teleportation requires magic power, something sephiroth couldn't squander.


There's no "magic power" in The Compilation, only willpower.




AgentAAA said:


> 2. Sephiroth in particular did feel the need to show his superiority over cloud in this battle - Thus, he may have been purposely not doing it to show he doesn't need to in order to defeat cloud, that his own strength and speed was enough.


Cloud stalemates him and he can's break through until his opponent starts running out of strength.




AgentAAA said:


> 3. Probably the easiest possible solution: The Animators felt that teleportation wouldn't add to the fight scene they constructed, so they chose to have sephiroth engage in CIS, as many characters in FF have done in the past, and not use his teleportation.


Sephiroth returns to take revenge on Cloud, so it would make no sense for him to voluntaruly hold anything back.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 22, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Cloud never sees him use teleportation unless he uses it it at the end of FF7, as Bizarro/Safer.



it's not like cloud's going to be suddenly shocked if Seph uses a teleport. at most it'd give seph an advantage once. More likely Cloud will just turn around and take him right the fuck out.

from what I can recall from CC Seph could teleport back then, so cloud being aware of it's still a factor.


Starting with Safer, Sephiroth exists on a different plane, so... When you're a "ghost", you're not exactly bound by space and time.[/quote]
you are.

You can maybe get intangibility and etc., but there's no real rules on what a ghost is. 
They can be not bound by space and time.

They can also be totally bound by time, with some being bound to places for X amount of time.
They're generally bound to space to some extent given that they still exist in and perceive spatial dimensions, and don't fall off the earth but seem to acknowledge it's curvature.

you can't handwave "it's a ghost" especially when Sephiroth certainly seems to still be bound by time, since he's not killing baby cloud via not acknowledging time, nor does it seem he's able to simply exist at all times in the universe like a truly non-time-bound being would.






> There's no "magic power" in The Compilation, only willpower.


Oh, hmm, yeah, you're right. I forgot that people didn't shoot fire/ice OH WAIT MAGIC'S A MAIN COMPONENT OF THE VERSE'S POWER.
Christ, they have the ultimate white and black magic as a part of the verse already, and even willpower appears to have a cap for how much it can be pulled from. Otherwise people could limitlessly throw their strongest attacks no problem.




> Cloud stalemates him and he can's break through until his opponent starts running out of strength.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

You think Sephiroth would teleport behind Cloud with his back turned to his opponent? 

By "not bound by space and time" I mean that the liked of v=d/t don't apply to him, not that he can time-travel, which doesn't even exist in The Compilation. 

Magic is manipulating the Lifestream with willpower through materia, which gives you access to the knowledge of the Ancients. The stronger one's will, the more powerful their magical attacks. 

It would be totally out-of-character for Sephiroth not to go all-out against Cloud, having been defeated by him twice. He returns exclusively to seek his revenge on Cloud, to have him defeated and on his knees, to humiliate him, kill everyone he holds dear, and finally torture and kill him. It's explicitly stated in the novellas that, following his defeat in FF7, Sephiroth makes his memories of Cloud the very core of his existence. He's basically hellbent to kill him.

Cloud, however, turns out to be on par with him. Sephiroth can't push him through in sword-locks. Even worse, at one point Cloud pushes him through a building, further humiliating him. You can see how how he loses his initial smirk, as the battle progresses.


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## Adamant soul (Jul 22, 2015)

Megatron said:


> You think Sephiroth would teleport behind Cloud with his back turned to his opponent?
> 
> By "not bound by space and time" I mean that the liked of v=d/t don't apply to him, not that he can time-travel, which doesn't even exist in The Compilation.
> 
> ...



It would be completely out of character for Wesker not to go all out against Chris, oh wait. 

Just because a character has lost to another one before doesn't mean it's automatically out of character for them to hold back when they fight again, especially if the character is drunk off a recent power-up. Sephiroth's arrogance has been known to get the better of him, Advent Children is the most blatant case of it, given he had several chances to kill Cloud in that fight and didn't take it because he wanted to make Cloud suffer.


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

Sephiroth doesn't want to simply kill Cloud, but rather make him suffer as much as possible. He outright tells Cloud he wants to give him despair, to take everything from him (torture and kill his family and friends) and to already start begging for mercy/forgiveness.


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## Regicide (Jul 22, 2015)

Speed doesn't apply to Sephiroth because he didn't teleport

Still the best argument ever


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## AgentAAA (Jul 22, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Sephiroth doesn't want to simply kill Cloud, but rather make him suffer as much as possible. He outright tells Cloud he wants to give him despair, to take everything from him (torture and kill his family and friends) and to already start begging for mercy/forgiveness.



wow, that might be the fastest backpedal I've ever seen.
So, he'll hold nothing back, and use any tactic in the book... except that he won't sometimes in order to taunt cloud.
this argument's getting stronger by the second.


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## Punchsplosion (Jul 22, 2015)

This is tiresome.

Megatron you should really stop.

Anyways, Cloud and crew (everyone that gets scaling from Bahamut Zero) are now officially FTL.

Baseline 11c.  Arguably, MFTL+ to an as undetermined amount if the proposed "summons dimension is our own" goes over.


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## Megatron (Jul 22, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> wow, that might be the fastest backpedal I've ever seen.
> So, he'll hold nothing back, and use any tactic in the book... except that he won't sometimes in order to taunt cloud.
> this argument's getting stronger by the second.


Sephiroth's aim isn't to simply kill Cloud, let alone quickly. He wants him defeated, humiliated, on his knees.


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## Expelsword (Jul 22, 2015)

Give it to me straight, does Cloud beat Sora?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jul 22, 2015)

Sora is currently 71c and large planet in DC and dura so no


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## AgentAAA (Jul 23, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Sephiroth's aim isn't to simply kill Cloud, let alone quickly. He wants him defeated, humiliated, on his knees.



as I said, the fastest backpedal I've ever seen.
you JUST said that Sephiroth held nothing back. This was your argument, that sephiroth would take every chance he got to take out Cloud, yes?

Except here, we clearly see that... no, he doesn't. he wastes several opportunities to just end the fight because he wants cloud defeated and humliated.

By your own logic, there's perfect sense in Cloud not dealing with any teleport bullshit - Sephiroth wants to humiliate ihm, and, furthermore, defeat him. He wouldn't want to go with a quick cheapshot.

And, again, nothing you've stated so far prevents it from being PIS.
there's plenty of characters in fiction who go "all out" but forget older techniques and abilities that could get them a quick win.
You can write it off as no longer being part of sephiroth's preferred style(and given Zack didn't even have a problem with Seph's teleport, not sure if it'd be too much of an imposition for Cloud at this point, which could also be Seph's reasoning), and thus an obsolete technique by his standards, Seph feeling he didn't need it, the animators for the fight scene making the decision not to use a teleport move because it wouldn't add to how visually interesting the fight was, or the easiest possible explanation...

People at Squeenix forgot about Sephiroth's teleport move so it's not in the movie.

thus creating an unremarkable PIS issue.

Fuck, could literally come down to Sephiroth forgetting he could do that, since it's been so long since he used the move.


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## Megatron (Jul 23, 2015)

Cloud stalemates Sephiroth for some 12h:



During the fight you can Sephiroth use both hands (a very clear sign of going all-out), lose his initial smirk and grunt a few times. He's surprised how strong Cloud has grown and then gets angry, because he can't overpower his rival.

It's not until Cloud gets tired that he starts losing. Up until then Sephiroth can't break through, no matter what he does.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 23, 2015)

Yeah, it's a sign of going all out!

not a sign he's using his sword with 2 hands, as it's intended to be used!

Either way, what are you saying then? was he going all-out, or is he drawing it out to make Cloud suffer humiliation and defeat?

you can't have it both ways as it suits your needs.

nor does this contradict the many other points brought up to poke holes in your argument - which has more holes and less substance than thin-cut swiss at this point.


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## shade0180 (Jul 23, 2015)

too much backpedaling in one page


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## Megatron (Jul 23, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Yeah, it's a sign of going all out!
> 
> not a sign he's using his sword with 2 hands, as it's intended to be used!
> 
> ...


Sephirth rarely uses both hands. Here he fights Genesis with one hand:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KxjGn30PDA[/YOUTUBE]


For almost 12h Sephiroth is stalemated and can't defeat Cloud, which is humiliating to him. He, a god, can't beat a mere grunt. Hardly a pleasant situation. Having tasted bitter defeat twice, now he still can't take the revenge he's obsessed with. AC Sephiroth doesn't want Cloud dead right away, but most of the time he can't even scratch him, which serves only to irritate and frustrate him.


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## shade0180 (Jul 23, 2015)

Megatron your video fails you. 

1:17 he uses 2 hand against angeal.. 

2:08 he uses 2 hands against genesis.. 



Point is he uses 2 hands when he feels like it not when he is serious...


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## SHM (Jul 23, 2015)

The way I see it, Sephiroth is going all out, but only phisically. Instead of using his supernatural powers granted to him by Jenova and the Lifestream, he chooses to hold them back in favor of using only his *full* physical power and skill, to prove he can beat Cloud in Cloud's own terms(a sword fight). That way, we can say Sephiroth was holding back, but at the same time, wasn't.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 23, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Sephirth rarely uses both hands. Here he fights Genesis with one hand:
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KxjGn30PDA[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...



Thanks for all the moral readings.
That also serve to confuse and muddle your point.
Is he using every tactic in the book or isn't he?
Does he want cloud to suffer or doesn't he?
Take one stance.
Better yet, throw away your argument, because this is exactly one point thrown at your argument when there are many more you don't even attempt to address.


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## Megatron (Jul 24, 2015)

Plainly and simply: Had Sephiroth a clear speed advantage, with teleportation, Cloud wouldn't stalemate him for 12h. 

Sephiroth transcends his previous selves, but Cloud, as his equal, automatically receives the same boost, and hence the stalemate.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 24, 2015)

Yeah, which proves... that cloud's sephiroth's equal?
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

None of this transcending speed bullshit.

If Seph teleported, it wouldn't necessarily be a sure hit, and he needed every ounce of his endurance to fight cloud - and call it magic or willpower, but doing big things still seems to exhaust fighters 

I'm pointing this out because it's the easiest in-story reason and the best one to bring up here offhand.
Let me summarize in less than one sentence the other potential reasons:

The staff decided to dissassociate Sephiroth with teleportation

The staff decided that it didn't look cool in the fight scene and got rid of it

Sephiroth's teleport was just fast movement in the first place

everyone on staff forgot sephiroth could teleport

Sephiroth wanted to show he could do it without teleport

Sephiroth noted teleport didn't really work for him in the past so chose not to bother

Sephiroth forgot how to teleport, or just hadn't used it in so long it wasn't an instinctive go-to.

They didn't want to introduce sephiroth's teleportation as it'd create an obvious plothole for why he didn't get away from cloud's slow jump up to omnislash him

Sephiroth's just dumb.



About 9 different reasons just off the top of my head that all fit in and better than your "transcending speed" bullshit.


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## Megatron (Jul 24, 2015)

Most of the in-story ones - those out-of-story require no comment - are of the the "lets hold on the last straw" type. 

Sephiroth is hellbent on taking revenge on Cloud. It would be completely out-of-character for him to voluntarily let Cloud stalemate him.  

Stamina is not an problem for him, since he's not the least bit tired after going all-out for 12h.


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## Adamant soul (Jul 24, 2015)

You keep repeating that it would be out of character for Sephiroth to hold back against Cloud. What I want to know is how you know that? Sephiroth's never been in a position where he's fighting a guy who's beaten him twice before. We have no way of knowing how he'd act in that situation aside from what we're shown in Advent Children. What we're shown is;

1) Sephiroth blatantly avoiding killing Cloud several times.
2) Sephiiroth constantly stopping to taunt Cloud
3) Sephiroth mostly defending/dodgeing until Cloud started to tier

Does that sound like someone going all out? Well let's have a look at his fight with Zack where we know he was giving it his all.

1) Sephiroth ended the fight the moment he got the oppertunity to do so
2) Kept up a constant offense even while explaining himself
3) Even when he did talk, it wasn't his usual taunts, nor did he speak more than necessary

Quite the difference if you ask me. 

Just because the fight lasted 12 hours doesn't mean Sephiroth didn't hold back. If anything, the fight lasting that long is a result of him holding back, waiting for Cloud to tire so he could make Cloud's defeat as painful and humilating as possible, as was his objective as you so like to keep reminding us.

So, to use your line, it would be totally out of character for Sephiroth, who wants to beat Cloud in the most humiliating and painful way possible, not to hold back or risk ending the fight too quickly.


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## Expelsword (Jul 24, 2015)

The fact that Cloud wasn't a miniature silenced and poisoned toad should tell you that Sephiroth was not going all out.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 24, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Most of the in-story ones - those out-of-story require no comment - are of the the "lets hold on the last straw" type.
> 
> Sephiroth is hellbent on taking revenge on Cloud. It would be completely out-of-character for him to voluntarily let Cloud stalemate him.
> 
> Stamina is not an problem for him, since he's not the least bit tired after going all-out for 12h.



, problem is PIS and CIS don't require him to be IN-character, and we acknowledge out-of-story reasons for things too.
As other people have pointed out, this is only really out of character to your interpretation in the first place - but you act like it's impossible for fiction to ever arbitrarily put on blinders with their characters. Fiction's FILLED with people who should use their win move to immediately take a fight - and then don't, despite how out of character it is.

Crap, the fact you think cloud and seph transcend speed itself and then assume the writers just didn't feel the need to note it to the audience goddamn amazes me.


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## SHM (Jul 24, 2015)

Expelsword said:


> The fact that Cloud wasn't a miniature silenced and poisoned toad should tell you that Sephiroth was not going all out.




What he said.


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## Megatron (Jul 24, 2015)

Adamant soul said:


> You keep repeating that it would be out of character for Sephiroth to hold back against Cloud. What I want to know is how you know that? Sephiroth's never been in a position where he's fighting a guy who's beaten him twice before. We have no way of knowing how he'd act in that situation aside from what we're shown in Advent Children. What we're shown is;
> 
> 1) Sephiroth blatantly avoiding killing Cloud several times.
> 2) Sephiiroth constantly stopping to taunt Cloud
> ...


What  you're apparently trying to ignore:

- Being stalemated by Cloud and unable to beat him is humiliating to Sephiroth, not Cloud, especially considering how superior he thinks himself.

- Cloud sword-locks with him, only to throw him through a building moments later, further humiliating him. 

- He's surprised by how strong Cloud has grown.

- Sephiroth loses his smirk, as he realizes that defeating Cloud isn't going to be easy. At this point he gets 100% serious.

You also tend to think that, having already lost to Cloud twice, Sephiroth is prone to fooling around with his rival. He's arrogant, to an extent, but as of AC he's basically a single-purpose machine, existing solely for vengeance on Cloud.




AgentAAA said:


> , problem is PIS and CIS don't require him to be IN-character, and we acknowledge out-of-story reasons for things too.
> As other people have pointed out, this is only really out of character to your interpretation in the first place - but you act like it's impossible for fiction to ever arbitrarily put on blinders with their characters. Fiction's FILLED with people who should use their win move to immediately take a fight - and then don't, despite how out of character it is.
> 
> Crap, the fact you think cloud and seph transcend speed itself and then assume the writers just didn't feel the need to note it to the audience goddamn amazes me.


It might be just an inconsistency, but it's entirely possible that Sephiroth simply has no need for teleportation anymore - having transcended his previous selves - and hence the stalemate.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 24, 2015)

Megatron said:


> What  you're apparently trying to ignore:
> 
> - Being stalemated by Cloud and unable to beat him is humiliating to Sephiroth, not Cloud, especially considering how superior he thinks himself.
> 
> ...


Sephiroth makes a career of losing to several people, but that doesn't necessarily make him 




> It might be just an inconsistency, but it's entirely possible that Sephiroth simply has no need for teleportation anymore - having transcended his previous selves - and hence the stalemate.


It's also entirely possible that there's a Teapot orbiting the sun in between earth and mars, but occam's razor states the simpler answer is usually the correct one.
The fact that cloud's friends even help him reach sephiroth in the first place, would put them at transcendent speed as well just to perceive sephiroth.

Fuck, you act like the teleport's such an established part of his character. it's hardly a footnote in terms of sephiroth's powers, it only comes up in CC, and that came out AFTER advent children in the first place, meaning teleport didn't exist in sephiroth's repertoire at the time of advent children, and thus can be easily written off as "it's not part of canon at the time the movie's made"

As many people have pointed out, sephiroth choosing not to teleport because it's underhanded, because he's literally insane and bloated on his own ego, because inconsistencies flat-out exist in technique use in fiction or just for the sake of moving plot along(because having to circumvent seph instaporting out of big moves would have made the fight very boring overall) is all perfectly reasonable and much easier than saying "SEPHIROTH MOVES FASTER THAN INSTANT AND SO DOES CLOUD" despite the latter still using a bike and is perceivable by human beings.


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## SHM (Jul 24, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Fuck, you act like the teleport's such an established part of his character. it's hardly a footnote in terms of sephiroth's powers, it only comes up in CC, and that came out AFTER advent children in the first place, meaning teleport didn't exist in sephiroth's repertoire at the time of advent children, and thus can be easily written off as "it's not part of canon at the time the movie's made"



Uhm... If you are one of the people who believes FFVII-Sephiroth can do whatever Jenova can, there are tons of moments in the game where Jenovaroth teleports.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 24, 2015)

SHM said:


> Uhm... If you are one of the people who believes FFVII-Sephiroth can do whatever Jenova can, there are tons of moments in the game where Jenovaroth teleports.



Jenova does, but Sephiroth hasn't displayed either the ability or the inclination to use it until CC


----------



## Megatron (Jul 25, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Sephiroth makes a career of losing to several people, but that doesn't necessarily make him


Without Cloud FF7 Sephiroth would just rip the party to shreds with telekinesis.  




AgentAAA said:


> Fuck, you act like the teleport's such an established part of his character. it's hardly a footnote in terms of sephiroth's powers, it only comes up in CC, and that came out AFTER advent children in the first place, meaning teleport didn't exist in sephiroth's repertoire at the time of advent children, and thus can be easily written off as "it's not part of canon at the time the movie's made"


CC amd AC Complete were both released in 2009.




AgentAAA said:


> As many people have pointed out, sephiroth choosing not to teleport because it's underhanded,


Baseless speculation. 




AgentAAA said:


> because he's literally insane and bloated on his own ego,


He's obsessed with taking revenge on Cloud. It would make no sense for him not to want his rival on his knees and begging for mercy as quickly as possible. 




AgentAAA said:


> because inconsistencies flat-out exist in technique use in fiction or just for the sake of moving plot along(because having to circumvent seph instaporting out of big moves would have made the fight very boring overall)


I know it might be simply an inconsistency




AgentAAA said:


> is all perfectly reasonable and much easier than saying "SEPHIROTH MOVES FASTER THAN INSTANT AND SO DOES CLOUD"


It's just as plausible that he no longer needs to teleport.




AgentAAA said:


> The fact that cloud's friends even help him reach sephiroth in the first place, would put them at transcendent speed as well just to perceive sephiroth.





AgentAAA said:


> despite the latter still using a bike and is perceivable by human beings.


Please, save me such arguments, unless you seriously want to argue that Cloud isn't faster than his bike and/or the party.


----------



## Monna (Jul 25, 2015)

Meta Knight solos due to not being yaoi fodder


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 25, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Without Cloud FF7 Sephiroth would just rip the party to shreds with telekinesis.


Okay.
That doesn't change the fact he has a terrible track record of w/l
matter of fact it changes about nothing with this, really.
he still lost to cloud and the party was still comparable enough to take his casual hits without going down instantly, and help cloud in taking him out.




> CC amd AC Complete were both released in 2009.


I'm referring to the original AC.
which is relevant since it's the same story either way, just with or without extra scenes.




> Baseless speculation.


No more baseless than "the ONLY explanation is he's faster than teleport. this is total speculation on your part which has no supporting evidence other than "well, why didn't he?
There's no speed measurement you're using.
there's no statement.
there's no calc.
there's no fluff-text.
There's quite literally your opinion about how a minor detail of AC complete was handled.
Sephiroth wanting to "defeat and humiliate cloud" would generally fall into "beating him fairly" as Sephiroth, while acknowledging cloud as a rival, clearly wants to show he's superior.
Backstabs don't quite prove that point. So while this is still speculation based on sephiroth's character... that's still about as much as what you're doing to prove Sephiroth IS transcendent.


> He's obsessed with taking revenge on Cloud. It would make no sense for him not to want his rival on his knees and begging for mercy as quickly as possible.


As someone has already pointed out, Sephiroth was already purposefully drawing it out, taking his sweet time, so no. If he wanted his rival on his knees and begging "as soon as possible" he would have most likely taken those opportunities to cut his legs off just above the shin.

once again, choose:

Does he want to kill cloud by any means possible, as fast as possible?
Or is he wanting to humiliate cloud?
You can't have it both ways, and the latter way requires some CIS in how he fights cloud in the first place.





> I know it might be simply an inconsistency


Then you admit that that transcendent speed shit don't fly?
keep in mind, the OBD doesn't run on "maybe"
if you can prove your poitn within a reasonable doubt, sure.
If literally anything else could be a reasonable and different explanation?
It's gonna get thrown out.
Though it wouldn't be the first time you've seen one of your ill-thought out theories get thrown out, would it?




> It's just as plausible that he no longer needs to teleport.


No it's not.
It's a huge outlier for the verse, it's more than enough of a speed upgrade in-verse that something would have commented on it(literal godlike powers of moving generally get actual commentary) and just the rest of the group helping cloud, somehow being able to react to him to be able to assist him in his super-attack against sephiroth heavily contradicts it.
Moving as fast as you say would literally create temporal effects.
Hell, the fact people were able to move fast enough to help cloud out would have to put them at transcendent as well.
since to their perspective everyone'd have to be frozen at that point.

meanwhile, you have one piece of what you laughably call "evidence" and base your entire argument around it


it's a gigantic plot point that they specifically help Cloud reach sephiroth by giving him boosts up there.

That is not transcendent speed and it's plot-vital. It's not some bullshit like Spectators being able to see DB characters or the like, this is more krillin being fast enough to help goku out in fighting vegeta. 




> Please, save me such arguments, unless you seriously want to argue that Cloud isn't faster than his bike and/or the party.


Spare me such bullshit then.

Moving "faster than instant" is high-end flash bullshit.
I might even give you the bike should we assume cloud has combat speed(which he does)
But the fact he would still need the bike for travel if he is truly transcendent is ludicrous, as it would break the concept of combat speed in the first place.

When you have the speed to move instnatly and not apply v=d/t, then any amount of time spent moving is enough to move anywhere around him.

Even if we assume he can only handle that for... oh, say, literally any amount of time, he should be teleporting to everyone else's vision when he fights. Unless they're also capable of comprehending the universe around them while time's standing still.

this isn't something you can treat like a normal speed argument specifically because you're handling something that's no longer speed but essentially a form of time and movement hax.

If v =d/t doesn't apply to him, or sephiroth, the whole fight wouldn't have taken 12 hours from our vision because none of their movements would have taken time in the first place.
It'd be a flat 0 hours, 0 minutes, and 0 seconds

because if you can move instantly, and have a fight at those speeds, then time isn't going to move for anyone around you until you and your opponent, should he be capable of literally reacting to a transcendent extent, decide to slow down on purpose.

even ignoring that.
Dust clouds are moving relative to them
buildings are moving relative to them
cloud's are moving relative to them
sparks are moving relative to them.
None of these things would be moving in relation to their movements if they're indeed moving at instant speed.
if this was a calc?
the primary evidence might contradict the secondary evidence.
When it's something like this, where it's a barely put-together argument and PIS is equally valid to explain it?
no.
not when it puts Occam's razor squarely in the park of "it's just PIS"

12 hours from people that move at "instant" is just LOLworthy, in all honesty.


----------



## shade0180 (Jul 25, 2015)

> Please, save me such arguments, unless you seriously want to argue that Cloud isn't faster than his bike and/or the party.



Best post this month.


----------



## Megatron (Jul 25, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Okay.
> That doesn't change the fact he has a terrible track record of w/l
> matter of fact it changes about nothing with this, really.
> he still lost to cloud and the party was still comparable enough to take his casual hits without going down instantly, and help cloud in taking him out..


We don't really know whether the party takes any actual blows from Sephiroth.it's more likely that their role is mostly supportive, with Cloud doing 99% of the work, like is later the case with Bahamut Sin.




AgentAAA said:


> I'm referring to the original AC.
> which is relevant since it's the same story either way, just with or without extra scenes.


AC/C replaces the original movie in the canon and it contains some CC-related/inspired updates, like Sephiroth's wing.





AgentAAA said:


> No more baseless than "the ONLY explanation is he's faster than teleport. this is total speculation on your part which has no supporting evidence other than "well, why didn't he?
> There's no speed measurement you're using.
> there's no statement.
> there's no calc.
> ...


And piercing all of Cloud's limbs when he has a chance, near the battle's end, does? 

There's strong circumstantial evidence that Sephiroth isn't holding back, even thought he wants Cloud incapacitated rather than dead. 




AgentAAA said:


> As someone has already pointed out, Sephiroth was already purposefully drawing it out, taking his sweet time, so no. If he wanted his rival on his knees and begging "as soon as possible" he would have most likely taken those opportunities to cut his legs off just above the shin.


...making him bleed-out in a matter of minutes.




AgentAAA said:


> Then you admit that that transcendent speed shit don't fly?
> keep in mind, the OBD doesn't run on "maybe"
> if you can prove your poitn within a reasonable doubt, sure.
> If literally anything else could be a reasonable and different explanation?
> ...







AgentAAA said:


> No it's not.
> it's more than enough of a speed upgrade in-verse that something would have commented on it(literal godlike powers of moving generally get actual commentary) and just the rest of the group helping cloud, somehow being able to react to him to be able to assist him in his super-attack against sephiroth heavily contradicts it.
> 
> ...
> ...


The party helps Cloud defeat Bahamut Sin, not Sephiroth. The scene is about friendship, cooperation and so on, not speed. 




AgentAAA said:


> it's more than enough of a speed upgrade in-verse that something would have commented on it(literal godlike powers of moving generally get actual commentary)
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


In short: It's not true because it doesn't meet your arbitrary criteria for being true.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 25, 2015)

Megatron said:


> We don't really know whether the party takes any actual blows from Sephiroth.it's more likely that their role is mostly supportive, with Cloud doing 99% of the work, like is later the case with Bahamut Sin.


Not how RPG's work.
We can assume, particularly with the AoE attacks we flat out know Seph can take the party into, that they'd be needing to tank at least some of the attacks. this is the logic generally used with RPG's. Otherwise it'd be hard to note their capabilities at all. 




> AC/C replaces the original movie in the canon and it contains some CC-related/inspired updates, like Sephiroth's wing.


It's an extended version of the original, more or less.
It's technically true it "replaces" the original, but it still keeps the majority of the original content.
however, nothing of the original is flat-out contradicted(though new stuff is added in) Which... would make Seph not using teleport make sense from the "it'd contradict the old AC ending we're still using".




> And piercing all of Cloud's limbs when he has a chance, near the battle's end, does?


From the front?
yeah.



> There's strong circumstantial evidence that Sephiroth isn't holding back, even thought he wants Cloud incapacitated rather than dead.


If he wants him incapacited rather than dead
he's holding back to achieve that result
since if he was holding nothing back he'd kill cloud
that's sort of how holding back in a fight works megatron.





> ...making him bleed-out in a matter of minutes.


Outside of the obvious "he could cauterize him, unless his knowledge he got from the materia is so bad he couldn't possibly manage that"
Cloud's far too much of a tank to bleed out after a few minutes
Take just about any five minutes with cloud and it's pretty obvious, even in AC, bleeding out isn't exactly a concern.]
though, still, you're missing the point entirely.
he didn't want his rival on his knees and begging "as soon as possible"
because he was letting him recover his strength.
He could have been as relatively nice as just punching cloud repeatedly in the face there, albeit that's not sephiroth's style, or carving him with nicks. or literally anything, rather than sitting there staring at him.

When you let your opponent take a breather, that's drawing it out.








> The party helps Cloud defeat Bahamut Sin, not Sephiroth. The scene is about friendship, cooperation and so on, not speed.


Oh, of course, that make sen-Seriously?
Unless cloud gets a huge speed buff in between bahamut and seph, which, feel free to prove, what the scene is about has nothing to do with how consistent it is.
or whether or not it's contradictory evidence.
If you want to bring that up no scene in advent children is remotely about speed in the first place. It normally is focusing on more mature concepts, which by itself is a good argument for why seph didn't teleport.
Because moving the narrative smoothly is more important than teleporting.




> In short: It's not true because it doesn't meet your arbitrary criteria for being true.


yeah, my arbitrary reasoning of:
>Moving that fast relative to the things around them
>Showing any primary evidence
>acting like instant speed instead of speed that takes time, which is what you're arguing it does.

How arbitrary I expect there to be some evidence instead of nothing but evidence to the contrary. 
or maybe it's because I have some respect for logical reasoning.


----------



## Megatron (Jul 26, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Not how RPG's work.
> We can assume, particularly with the AoE attacks we flat out know Seph can take the party into, that they'd be needing to tank at least some of the attacks. this is the logic generally used with RPG's. Otherwise it'd be hard to note their capabilities at all.


Protective magic + Cloud's will.





AgentAAA said:


> It's an extended version of the original, more or less.
> It's technically true it "replaces" the original, but it still keeps the majority of the original content.
> however, nothing of the original is flat-out contradicted(though new stuff is added in) Which... would make Seph not using teleport make sense from the "it'd contradict the old AC ending we're still using".


It might be that there's no inconsistency between CC and AC. Hence my idea.




AgentAAA said:


> From the front?
> yeah.





AgentAAA said:


> he didn't want his rival on his knees and begging "as soon as possible"
> because he was letting him recover his strength.
> He could have been as relatively nice as just punching cloud repeatedly in the face there, albeit that's not sephiroth's style, or carving him with nicks. or literally anything, rather than sitting there staring at him.
> 
> When you let your opponent take a breather, that's drawing it out.







AgentAAA said:


> If he wants him incapacited rather than dead
> he's holding back to achieve that result
> since if he was holding nothing back he'd kill cloud
> that's sort of how holding back in a fight works megatron.


Save that he can't do even so much, so long as Cloud has enough strength to defend himself properly.





AgentAAA said:


> Oh, of course, that make sen-Seriously?
> Unless cloud gets a huge speed buff in between bahamut and seph, which, feel free to prove, what the scene is about has nothing to do with how consistent it is.
> or whether or not it's contradictory evidence.


Geostigma. At that time Cloud is half-dead and can't even properly defend himself from the Remnants.





AgentAAA said:


> yeah, my arbitrary reasoning of:
> >Moving that fast relative to the things around them
> >Showing any primary evidence
> >acting like instant speed instead of speed that takes time, which is what you're arguing it does.
> ...


At times fiction has little respect for physics and logic. A fantasy movie is not a scientific similation. Not even close.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 26, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Protective magic + Cloud's will.


Cloud's never implied to be protecting them from every single attack sephiroth's throwing, in-game, so that's pretty much theorycrafting to state otherwise.
Protective magic is something the entire party's using at that point and can, yes, probably be assumed to be used by everyone, but doesn't negate the feat.




> It might be that there's no inconsistency between CC and AC. Hence my idea.


It also might be that they wanted to keep the majority of the original AC scenes rather than have to creat an all-new ending by acknowledging the teleport - which Sephiroth gave up by ff7 anyway.


You're right, cloud and sephiroth did fight in the end sometimes.
Until Sephiroth gave him vital breathers so that he could have nice chit-chat with zack, and stuff.




> Save that he can't do even so much, so long as Cloud has enough strength to defend himself properly.


Save that he had plenty of decent chances regardless when cloud did not





> Geostigma. At that time Cloud is half-dead and can't even properly defend himself from the Remnants.


MHS to transcendent's a pretty damn big jump.
though I thought at that point in the movie he'd more or less overcome it's handicap. W/E.





> At times fiction has little respect for physics and logic. A fantasy movie is not a scientific similation. Not even close.


You're right.
However, when you claim a speed feat, and contradictory evidence exists, it still needs to be taken into consideration.
when you claim someone's moving at MFTL in a scene, it can be contradicted if, say, we see rabbits hopping at a speed relative to that guy's in the same scene. It doesn't mean he's not MFTL, it just means it's contradictory evidence.
the difference between most OBD speed calcs and etc. is you haven't really even created primary evidence that seph's moving at those speeds in the first place.
If they're moving that fast, showings are important(or at least decently good statements), otherwise we end up defaulting to occam's razor, which says the simplest explanation is generally the correct one.
The simpler explanation for all these contradictory showings here, because you don't have a sold calc, statement, or earlier showing to back it up or prove this, is that Sephiroth decided not to teleport. Not that he's been moving at instant speed this whole time despite seemingly the whole sequence being contradictory to the idea.

The OBD acknowledges lelfiction and PIS, but this does not mean contradictory evidence doesn't exist or shouldn't be taken into account.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jul 26, 2015)

I will say that Cloud was suffering from Geostigma in every fight except for the last two against Kadaj (after the church) and then Sephiroth.  They make a point to show Kadaj almost hitting his injured arm in the motorcycle-hill slide right before they reach the church before he rips off the cloth covering said body part.  The water from the church gets rid of the disease.  Geostigma was literally killing and crippling him, but his restored confidence/will power brought him back up to the level of the Remnants.  After the Geostigma was cured, he was casually above them.  He beat Kadaj with minimal effort right after being healed.

Other than that, Megatron's still grasping at straws.

11c+ Sephiroth is what we have for speed.  Impressive, but not transcendent level ffs.


----------



## Megatron (Jul 27, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Cloud's never implied to be protecting them from every single attack sephiroth's throwing, in-game, so that's pretty much theorycrafting to state otherwise.
> Protective magic is something the entire party's using at that point and can, yes, probably be assumed to be used by everyone, but doesn't negate the feat.


Plot armor is another possibility. 




AgentAAA said:


> It also might be that they wanted to keep the majority of the original AC scenes rather than have to creat an all-new ending by acknowledging the teleport - which Sephiroth gave up by ff7 anyway.


There's no reason to assume that FF7 Sephiroth can't teleport, even though Jenovaroth can. 




AgentAAA said:


> You're right, cloud and sephiroth did fight in the end sometimes.
> Until Sephiroth gave him vital breathers so that he could have nice chit-chat with zack, and stuff.


Before unleashing Omnoslash V6 Cloud is pretty much done with. Sephiroth doesn't expect him to have anything up his sleeve.




AgentAAA said:


> Save that he had plenty of decent chances regardless when cloud did not


When?




AgentAAA said:


> MHS to transcendent's a pretty damn big jump.
> though I thought at that point in the movie he'd more or less overcome it's handicap. W/E.


More like MFTL --> transcendent. 






AgentAAA said:


> You're right.
> However, when you claim a speed feat, and contradictory evidence exists, it still needs to be taken into consideration.
> when you claim someone's moving at MFTL in a scene, it can be contradicted if, say, we see rabbits hopping at a speed relative to that guy's in the same scene. It doesn't mean he's not MFTL, it just means it's contradictory evidence.
> the difference between most OBD speed calcs and etc. is you haven't really even created primary evidence that seph's moving at those speeds in the first place.
> ...


AC, with its visuals, contradicts every decent speed feat in the Compilation, be it lightning timing, Fury's warping between solar systems or Zack's mach 14,000 "feat". It's the same thing as with environmental damage, if you know what I mean.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 27, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Plot armor is another possibility.


Plot armor implies you never actually got hit in the first place or that the plot saves you.
The original example of Plot armor actually draws from the fact that ships in star trek or star wars were less and less likely to be shot at by the murderbeam first due to the major characters aboard.




> There's no reason to assume that FF7 Sephiroth can't teleport, even though Jenovaroth can.


There isn't, but it does show he flat-out doesn't.
Fictional characters flat-out dropping seemingly useless techniques.
Or in this case, never had them because his teleport didn't exist yet.
Either he doesn't or he chooses not to, which would still be consistent with Crisis core.



> Before unleashing Omnoslash V6 Cloud is pretty much done with. Sephiroth doesn't expect him to have anything up his sleeve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not even going to answer these two given you JUST acknowledged "when" with the answer you gave BEFORE that.
you also gave a good reason for why he doesn't use his teleport at the end, which is the point he really needs it.




> More like MFTL --> transcendent.


Ehh, come to think of it literally any speed lower than transcendent is an equally huge jump in the first place, so... Point in your favor... I guess?





> AC, with its visuals, contradicts every decent speed feat in the Compilation, be it lightning timing, Fury's warping between solar systems or Zack's mach 14,000 "feat". It's the same thing as with environmental damage, if you know what I mean.


the thing is that while environmental damage can be inconsistent for the purposes of power scaling, it generally exists in the thing that originally proves they can do that level of damage in the first place.

The reason we know 23rd goku and piccolo are island level in the first place is because the island's gone by the end of one of piccolo's blasts.
We assume after affirming that that characters on his level can manage similar and that characters far above him can do it casually.

This isn't like zach having a mach 14,000 feat and then it being later contradicted by visuals, however. This is like trying to make a mach 100 calc while we watch a bullet move faster.

Of course...
This is the point things get ridiculous
because now I realize your point might be dumber than I thought.

In the first place, here, you're more or less appealing to the intent of the narrative. It's not appeal to author, but it's close.

But this isn't some calc because you're assuming Sephiroth doesn't teleport because he has no need.
If we go by "the narrative intended it to be this way"
then why is it showing all these contradictory showings? hell, why isn't it commenting on it at all? was it assuming everyone would just naturally come to your ridiculous conclusion? why not highlight it? a million questions come up. Regardless of how stupid you may think authors are, Even the monkeys at current DC understand that when Flash moves really fast everything standing still to them.
at this point you're stating that these people gave him transcendent speed on purpose but felt no need to comment on it, directly or indirectly, add anything into the canon to state this, or even thought to themself: "you know, I think when people transcend the idea of speed they're so fast, things around them would at least look slower"
at this point that's assuming the FF writers are suggsverse quality.

If we go off of OBD "We go with what's shown and assume authors are idiots if it comes down to it"...

It comes down to the authors forgot he could teleport.
why?
because OBD still uses Occam's razor, and in a situation like this, the amount and the plausibility of the assumptions that need to be taken to assume that Sephiroth literally moves so fast time wouldn't move for him is contradicted in literally every scene he appears in.



What you're asking at the moment is that we take one shred of evidence and ignore every single contradictory bit of evidence that appears no matter how damning, in an attempt to take advantage of the fact we like to ignore a lot of secondary effects here.
The problem is you need primary evidence - I.E a direct showing - to ignore secondary evidence - I.E everything we can see here

when - it's just PIS or CIS - is an easy conclusion to come to and not contradicted by anything.


----------



## Megatron (Jul 28, 2015)

You're relying too much on visuals. CC Sephiroth, Zack, Genesis and Angeal are all above the MFTL Bahamut Fury, yet their fights don't cause the world to freeze relative to them. 


After the initial surprise AC Sephiroth tries to avoid Omnislash V6 by... parrying it.


----------



## Azzuri (Jul 28, 2015)

So who wins this?


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2015)

Megatron said:


> You're relying too much on visuals. CC Sephiroth, Zack, Genesis and Angeal are all above the MFTL Bahamut Fury, yet their fights don't cause the world to freeze relative to them.


I'm going to ignore the fact that MFTL wouldn't cause the same form of freeze and point out the main 2 problems with it.
1. the MFTL stuff is currently appealing to powerscaling that happens with a feat where consistency appears, whereas there's no consistency at any point in the "feat" if you want to call it that, that you're claiming appears in the AC movie. 
You're missing the main difference most of the calcs have.

We can assume DB characters and shit are moon level off of Piccolo blowing up the moon.
Because he actually blew up the goddamn moon.

That's something we saw him do and therefore can apply to his stats regardless of inconsistencies.

This is closer to Cell claiming he can destroy the solar system - which is, debunked as it was, still a more believable claim than this "sephiroth moves at transcendent speed" bullshit - and thus when visually we aren't given any reason to believe the claim, it gets thrown out.

given you're appealing to author intent in the first place, you would expect the authors would... you know, intend to put* something* in there regarding their speed, so the inconsistencies become far more notable.

Really, at this point you're just exposing how much your argument is made of wank though, given your repeated attempts to sidestep answering over half of the opposing arguments, and handwaving the fact that literally everything is inconsistent with your vision of a transcendent Sephiroth.



> After the initial surprise AC Sephiroth tries to avoid Omnislash V6 by... parrying it.



Care to explain how this has to do with anything?


----------



## Megatron (Jul 29, 2015)

Sephiroth's transcendence explains *in-story why we don't see him teleport in the movie, even when Cloud is about to finish him off with Omnislash V6.*


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Sephiroth's transcendence explains *in-story why we don't see him teleport in the movie, even when Cloud is about to finish him off with Omnislash V6.*


*

fix your bold tags.
It's not the most likely answer, so we don't use it.
Hell, the simplest answer one can give?
"Sephiroth thought he could just parry it and didn't have the concentration to teleport while he was taking those heavy hits"
though I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond to this when you're not even attempting to make an argument. you're just restating your original point which was ripped to shreds a while back in the thread.

Really, do you have any idea how many characters would be Transcendent if we went with "They didn't teleport so they're faster than teleport somehow.".*


----------



## Megatron (Aug 1, 2015)

Maybe stop assuming things beyond what is shown. At his strongest Sephiroth uses only swordplay, flight and telekinesis. The remainder of his arsenal is gone.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Aug 1, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Maybe stop assuming things beyond what is shown. At his strongest Sephiroth uses only swordplay, flight and telekinesis. The remainder of his arsenal is gone.



Yet, you get to ignore the things that are actually shown to justify your points?

Little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## Adamant soul (Aug 1, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Maybe stop assuming things beyond what is shown. At his strongest Sephiroth uses only swordplay, flight and telekinesis. The remainder of his arsenal is gone.



"Maybe stop assuming things beyond what is shown."

Oh, you mean like the basis of your entire argument? 
Neither Sephiroth nor Cloud are ever shown to transcend the idea of speed, nor have you given us any real evidence outside of "you believe it so it must be true". You're mindlessely grasping at straws to cover the fact, Sephiroth is an arrogant prick who simply didn't feel like he needed to teleport. Or, as you pointed out, he wanted to humiliate and make Cloud suffer, break him physically and mentally, thus he elected to use only the bare minimum or what was required tp defeat Cloud. Both make far more sense given the character the compilation has shown us, up to this point. 

But hey, if you want to think that's legit then Caius, Serah, Noel and anyone above them transcend the idea of speed because Caius didn't teleport once throughout the entire final battle of XIII-2. This, despite the fact he starts the fight in his Chaos Bahamut form, draws upon the power of all the chaos in Valhalla, and the fact he transforms into his most powerful form at the end, proving beyond any doubt that he wasn't holding back. 

Fucking Serah matches Megatron's Sephiroth's speed. :rofl


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## Megatron (Aug 1, 2015)

Before the battle's end Sephiroth can't put a single scratch on Cloud, who meanwhile even pushes him back in a sword lock. 

The arrogance argument won't fly when it's obvious that Sephiroth simply can't break through his rival's defense.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 1, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Before the battle's end Sephiroth can't put a single scratch on Cloud, who meanwhile even pushes him back in a sword lock.
> 
> The arrogance argument won't fly when it's obvious that Sephiroth simply can't break through his rival's defense.



You mean except for him stabbing Cloud multiple times in mid-air with hardly any effort, neglecting to inflict any fatal injuries at all. Not only did he break through his rival's defence, he did so easily. Now you're just making shit up.


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## Megatron (Aug 1, 2015)

Near the battle's end, when Cloud is already exhausted after fighting Sephiroth for some 12 hrs. He tries to use the original Omnislash, but Sephiroth parries/dodges the attack, impales him with Masamune, then throws him in the air and gets below him.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 1, 2015)

Megatron said:


> Near the battle's end, when Cloud is already exhausted after fighting Sephiroth for some 12 hrs. He tries to use the original Omnislash, but Sephiroth parries/dodges the attack, impales him with Masamune, then throws him in the air and gets below him.



Uh, thank you for making my point that Sephroth could have ended Cloud at any time perfectly clear. 
How does this help you in any way?


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## Megatron (Aug 1, 2015)

Once more:



Megatron said:


> *Near the battle's end, when Cloud is already exhausted*


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## Adamant soul (Aug 1, 2015)

Which means nothing, Sephiroth barely attacked Cloud up until that point, mostly defending and letting Cloud tire himself out. Doesn't magically make Cloud less durable, nor does it contradict that Sephiroth could have ended the fight at any time. Just before that, Cloud tries dual wielding and Sephiroth casually blocks his entire assault, one-handed.

So yeah, still doesn't help you.


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## Megatron (Aug 1, 2015)

That''s why Sephiroth can't push Cloud through in a sword lock, loses his arrogant smirk, is surprised by Cloud's strength and at one point nearly decapitates him?


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