# Darth Vader vs Goku



## Aokiji (Jan 11, 2009)

It's consense that Luke would beat Goku. Can his father do the same?


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## Yoshitsuna (Jan 11, 2009)

Most probably.


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## Zaelapolopollo (Jan 11, 2009)

lol Goku could kill both Luke and his lame ass father before either of them could even think of using their Force powers.

TK and precog won't help against instant movement + one hit kill ki blasts.


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## Estrecca (Jan 11, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> It's consense that Luke would beat Goku. Can his father do the same?



WTF? Can I get a link, please? 

Because I want to see what line of reasoning was used to reach this consensus.


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## Estrecca (Jan 11, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> Mindrape.



I'd disagree with this, then. Goku is much, much (insert around a dozen times 'much') faster than Luke is and unlike telekinetic shielding, telepathic attacks require active concentration in the part of the Jedi/Sith. And Goku is not exactly lacking in willpower (which is usually the key when it comes to resisting Force mindfuckery).

In an arena match where both characters are going for the kill, Goku fries him with a casual energy blast or punches Luke's head out before Luke can even consider the possibility of bringing mindrape to the table. Put them both in character and Skywalker's chances improve a bit.

At least, that are my two cents.

EDIT: Oooookay. I hadn't read The Anti-Existence's post and it seems that we both think along the same lines.


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## Jinchuuriki Sparx (Jan 11, 2009)

There's no way. Goku is just to super charged.


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## Aokiji (Jan 11, 2009)

Luke Skywalker has relativistic/lightspeed reaction's, no?

He is thinking faster than Goku and thus can mindrape him faster.


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## Estrecca (Jan 11, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> Luke Skywalker has relativistic/lightspeed reaction's, no?



No. That's a purely passive capacity to react to attacks done with lightspeed (lasers) coming fom a single direction. Like , but augmented by Force precognition. Usually, a Jedi doesn't actually _control_ his combat precognition and simply lets the Force guide his movements.

Telepathy (and particularly attack telepathy) is something that always requires concentration and conscious control. With a bloodlusted Goku in the arena, Luke simply will not have the time to think "mindfuck" before getting speedblitzed to hell and back.


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## Judge Gabranth (Jan 11, 2009)

Goku would kick Darth Vader ass.


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## Darth (Jan 11, 2009)

this thread would make more sense if it was Exar Kun vs. Goku..

Darth Vader was pretty weak because of his *limbs getting cut off* thing..

his link to the force was weakened greatly...

at any rate, Exar Kun could suck the life out of galaxy's and add them to his power.. i'm pretty sure he could take on Goku..


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## Deer_Hunter_ (Jan 11, 2009)

Luke can beat Goku?????
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??????????????
:S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S
what the mother fucking fuck :S which version of luke, movie version? the one who had troubles with bobba fet or whatever his name is, a guy with guns?????????????????
don't fuck with common scence, goku teleports behind luke and DESTROYS HIMS with a kamehameha, the same as his robot father lolz

whomever disagrees explain me HOW can luke fucking skywalker beat a guy whose ki is fealt in all the fucking universe :S


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Many may not know this But according to the official Daizenshuu books, it is stated that Goku is one one unique to have Telepathic and other psychic powers. So yes, Goku can read minds. It was even shown during Cell saga when Goku had the virus. He was going in the minds of his friend to find out what went on

If you don't beileve me, I can find the translation quotation for this.


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## Blaizen (Jan 11, 2009)

Goku flies out of the planet at Hyper sonic speeds and blows it up (Saiyans can survive in outer space according to Freeza) then he teleports to Kaioshin's planet before he runs out of air.

Winner = Goku


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## Rice Ball (Jan 11, 2009)

Goku would beat Luke and Vader.
Vegeta has shrugged off Psychic attacks/commands with ease.


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## Aokiji (Jan 11, 2009)

Carloseh said:


> Luke can beat Goku?????
> ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??????????????
> :S:S:S:S:S:S:S:S
> what the mother fucking fuck :S which version of luke, movie version? the one who had troubles with bobba fet or whatever his name is, a guy with guns?????????????????
> ...



Just die....



TSC said:


> Many may not know this But according to the official Daizenshuu books, it is stated that Goku is one one unique to have Telepathic and other psychic powers. So yes, Goku can read minds. It was even shown during Cell saga when Goku had the virus. He was going in the minds of his friend to find out what went on
> 
> If you don't beileve me, I can find the translation quotation for this.



Durr, he can only do that when he touches them also, so what, does being able to read someone's mind protect you from proffessor X or Luke Skywalker?

Also, Star Wars EU.



Blaizen said:


> Goku flies out of the planet at Hyper sonic speeds and blows it up (*Saiyans can survive in outer space according to Freeza*) then he teleports to Kaioshin's planet before he runs out of air.
> 
> Winner = Goku



No they can't you cretin. Freeza was obviously being sarcastic.

And if he destroys the planet he dies too.

How the fuck do you breath and type at the same time?



Rice Ball said:


> Goku would beat Luke and Vader.
> Vegeta has shrugged off Psychic attacks/commands with ease.



I could beat Superman, i have shrugged physical attacks and heat with ease.


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## Lord Raizen (Jan 11, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> Just die....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please tell me u have never watched dbz before. i hope to god that it be to impossible a feat for a man to be so stupid. if u truely have watched all of dbz, and you can still make such claims, then i have lost all hope for the world. Jedi mind techniques work according to the will power of the victim, there weakness of mind

A good example is when vegeta allowed himself to be taken over by babidi. he could have broken free of his mind control, and even after he gained the powerboost he wanted he retained control of his mind. babidi was the most powerful sorceroro in the universe, able to control beings of godly power. Dabura king of demons, a man stronger than perfect cell. Majin buu, a being who was not only a threat to the universe but all deminsions. a being who destroyed the gods of dbz verse. These creatures were over come by babidi, but vageta cold have broken it, and goku is FAR stronger than vegeta, especially by the end of the series. his will power is beyond comprehension, and his speed and strength, as well as energy supply were beyond measure. goku as a child in gt, was said to be able to power a galaxy with his energy, and as a super saiyan four, he could tear the universe a part with his power. 

there is no way his mind could be over come, and there is no way anyone would survive a fight with him if he was bloodlusted.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> *Durr, he can only do that when he touches them* also, so what, does being able to read someone's mind protect you from proffessor X or Luke Skywalker?



Did you even read what I said? He was able to it even without touching them. Cell saga was perfect example when he was in bed with the virus.


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## Rice Ball (Jan 11, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> I could beat Superman, i have shrugged physical attacks and heat with ease.



Eh, i guess your trying to tell me that Jedi has a greater Magnitude of psychic powers than Babidi? While he hasn't done great feats, talking to a whole planet using psychic powers (when the population have no psychic powers) is a big feat, whats even better is he was able to read the thoughts of EVERYONE on the planet and filter it down to the information he needed (without going insane like Prof X would).

Resisting this type of persons hold on you shows a good ammount of resistance, enough at least to stop them from fucking with you, giving you the 3 seconds you'd need to turn them into ash.

Goku has shown to have greater Psychic abilities than Vegeta too.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Rice Ball said:


> Goku has shown to have greater Psychic abilities than Vegeta too.


According to the daizenshu official books, It stated that Goku is the only Saiyan that knows psychic abilities.


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## Fang (Jan 11, 2009)

Goku doesn't have any psyhic abilities other than passive telepathy and that requires him to physically touch a person. And Babidi never talked to an entire planet, he used Telepathy to talk to the population at the city where the Tenachi Budokai took place at during the Majin Buu arc. And Vegeta had to put everything to overcome Babidi's commands.

As for Luke using Telepathic attacks, he doesn't require overtly active concentration to perform them. He was doing those things nigh instanteously against Raynar and others in later EU works.

Luke can win this if he uses his Shatterpoints and Precognition at the start and puts it all in severing Goku's mental connections. Otherwise Goku will destroy him. And in either case, Luke has reacted to instanteous weapons like Paddle-Beamers without using Precognition.


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## Spectre (Jan 11, 2009)

It is like Hao deal. They can have all pre cog they want, but if their bodies do not follow, they are doomed.


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## Fang (Jan 11, 2009)

Good thing Luke has reacted to lightspeed masers and instanteous weaponary akin to teleportation.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

TWF said:


> Goku doesn't have any psyhic abilities other than passive telepathy and that requires him to physically touch a person.


Why do people don't listen or read? 
I already gave you example of Goku perform the ability WITHOUT touching a person.

here is quote that states it


> It links together Goku?s ability to telepathically communicate with Gohan during the fight with Vegeta, his ability to read Kuririn?s memories on Namek, and his ability to ?hear? what everyone was saying in his dreams while he was struggling with the heart virus as all being different manifestations of the same ability. It says that these telepathic abilities are a result of Goku?s training his spirit.



If still don't believe me, here is the link to info I found it from, 
Link removed



TWF said:


> And Babidi never talked to an entire planet, he used Telepathy to talk to the population at the city where the Tenachi Budokai took place at during the Majin Buu arc. And Vegeta had to put everything to overcome Babidi's commands.



First of all, the city that babidi was near, was nowhere near the Tournament.  Second, he did telepathically talk to entire world. How else was he able to get the people on Kami lookout to listen, when he never even knew of the place?


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## Fang (Jan 11, 2009)

TSC said:


> Why do people don't listen or read?
> I already gave you example of Goku perform the ability WITHOUT touching a person.
> 
> here is quote that states it
> ...



Funny how Goku needed Kaio-Daio to talk to Gohan when he was dead during the Cell Games and again had to physically touch Kuririn and Gohan through passive telepathy to understand all the events that occured upwards to the Ginyu Force battle.



> First of all, the city that babidi was near, was nowhere near the Tournament.  Second, he did telepathically talk to entire world. How else was he able to get the people on Kami lookout to listen, when he never even knew of the place?



Saruyama!

What's your point? You do realize that Luke has beaten Telepaths who are above planetary threats and he has used his own Telepathy to force all the Force Users across they're own galaxy to come to Ossus.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

The only difference being that he could telepathically communicate with Gohan, and read Krillin's mind is that talking with Gohan was his telepathic ability, and reading Krillin's mind was of a psychic matter. 

And as for Goku reading the minds of the people of earth. I haven't seen this. You have a scan of this?


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## Red (Jan 11, 2009)

This fight takes place in a boundless battle dome akin to the hyperbolic time chamber right? Goku may win this if he teleports a good deal away from the starting location and just lets one planet killing energy bomb in the general direction.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Genibus Nitito Canus said:


> And as for Goku reading the minds of the people of earth. I haven't seen this. You have a scan of this?


Are you referring during the cell saga? It was during him having heart virus.
I believe it was around volume 30.

TwF, I'm not supporting either, all I'm saying is that Goku does has those abilities, with proof.

It been long time since i've read EU Star Wars(most of em aren't even canon anyway) I do know Luke in EU is damn strong, especially in Dark Empire arc.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

So far, through reading the chapters, I haven't seen it as to where he has read the minds of the people of earth. Might have just been anime filler.


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## Kimimaro91 (Jan 11, 2009)

Goku would kill both of them, both at the same time, if he was really struggling - Super saiyan 4 / Spirt bomb = game over.

*Kimimaro*


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

Kimimaro91 said:


> Goku would kill both of them, both at the same time, if he was really struggling - Super saiyan 4 / Spirt bomb = game over.
> 
> *Kimimaro*





Super Saiyan 4 is non canon to the series, so tis not allowed, lest said by the OP. Other than that, it takes Goku time to charge an effective enough Genki Dama to even work, and that would put him in a bind as Vader would have already tried to intervene while Goku is gathering energy.


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## Kind of a big deal (Jan 11, 2009)

As a concience question, why is it that generally by default EU is accepted in the OBD but movie/anime/GT feats in DBZ are not accepted?

Is is a sort of pre-emptive way to counter the arguments of potentially obnoxious fanboys?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

Depends upon what's allowed in the thread, as stated by the Original Poster. Other than that, I don't know.


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## Kimimaro91 (Jan 11, 2009)

alright, even still if we're talking before goku could turn SS, he could move faster than sound :S. vader wouldnt even be able to see him before he got hit with a Kame.

*Kimimaro*


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Genibus Nitito Canus said:


> So far, through reading the chapters, I haven't seen it as to where he has read the minds of the people of earth. Might have just been anime filler.



That couldn't be as the Daizenshu were all about the manga. Not the anime. It was even overview by Toriyama himself.

Also Goku stated that he was able to see the whole andriod/cell events when he was out.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

TSC said:


> That couldn't be as the Daizenshu were all about the manga. Not the anime. It was even overview by Toriyama himself.
> 
> Also Goku stated that he was able to see the whole andriod/cell events when he was out.



The Daizenshuu is about both the Dragon Ball manga AND anime. 

And you have a scan, yes?


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## Fang (Jan 11, 2009)

The only canon for Dragon Ball is the manga for Part I and II. The anime is an adapation, so secondary to the manga, the GT sequel to Part II is defiently not canon.


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## Seyta (Jan 11, 2009)

It doesn't matter how quickly you react to an energy blast from Goku.

With the ridiculous amount of area it covers, Luke and Vader would be engulfed while trying to flee....


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## Jυstin (Jan 11, 2009)

Lol wut? 

In the Star Wars Extended Universe, Luke is pretty much an unstoppable force, but nothing is stopping Goku from vanishing in a second, hovering hundreds and hundreds of feet above ground, and shooting a Kamehameha down that destroys the whole area.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Genibus Nitito Canus said:


> The Daizenshuu is about both the Dragon Ball manga AND anime.
> 
> And you have a scan, yes?



Only the books that covers the tv series/movies are book 3, 5 and 6. Book 1, 2, 4 and 7 cover the manga.

That note info I gave out is from Book 4 WORLD GUIDE. Why need a scan when I provided the translation. That forum is most reliable source of accurate Dragonball information. I'm not joking.

What more you want from me?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

TSC said:


> Only the books that covers the tv series/movies are book 3, 5 and 6. Book 1, 2, 4 and 7 cover the manga.



I kinda already knew that. 



			
				TSC said:
			
		

> That note info I gave out is from Book 4 WORLD GUIDE. Why need a scan when I provided the translation. That forum is most reliable source of accurate Dragonball information. I'm not joking.
> 
> What more you want from me?



And I found the scan of what you were talking about. He never specified as to who he was talking about, just that "I heard all of you talk in my dreams. 
Saruyama!

I wouldn't call that telepathy, more like being in a comatose state, being able to hear what's going on though unconscious to it, but that's just me.


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## Kalashnikov (Jan 11, 2009)

Seyta said:


> It doesn't matter how quickly you react to an energy blast from Goku.
> 
> With the ridiculous amount of area it covers, Luke and Vader would be engulfed while trying to flee....



What the guy said.

Goku wins in less than 2 sec.


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## TSC (Jan 11, 2009)

Genibus Nitito Canus said:


> I kinda already knew that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea I found the scan too.
Saruyama!
 I dunno, does seems like some sort of mind or vision reading. Wouldn't that be considered as telepathy and/or a psychic ability?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2009)

TSC said:


> Yea I found the scan too.
> Saruyama!
> I dunno, does seems like some sort of mind or vision reading. Wouldn't that be considered as telepathy and/or a psychic ability?



Might be telepathy, but then again, he'd have to be talking to them through their minds just like he did with Gohan for it to considered to be telepathy. Or maybe Goku has a very good sense of hearing, or maybe it could be my theory of him being unconscious, and hearing them while resting.


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## Fang (Jan 11, 2009)

Kalashnikov said:


> What the guy said.
> 
> Goku wins in less than 2 sec.



Comparing Luke's speed of thought to Goku's is a joke. If Luke attacks him telepathically, there is nothing Goku can do.


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## Kalashnikov (Jan 11, 2009)

TWF said:


> Comparing Luke's speed of thought to Goku's is a joke. If Luke attacks him telepathically, there is nothing Goku can do.



I admit I didn't read Star Wars EU, but from what you post here, either way fight finishes in less than 2 sec. It's who decides to attack first.

I'll still go with Goku though.


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## Fang (Jan 11, 2009)

Luke has dealt with instanteous/teleportation based weaponary as well as masers from Chiss Charric Guns which travel at the speed of light.

He's fast enough to nail Goku before he can do anything with Telepathy. As for Vader, he stands little to no chance here.


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## Aokiji (Jan 12, 2009)

Red said:


> This fight takes place in a boundless battle dome akin to the hyperbolic time chamber right? *Goku may win this if he teleports a good deal away from the starting location* and just lets one planet killing energy bomb in the general direction.



He can't do that.


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## Spectre (Jan 12, 2009)

Spiderman and Zoro dodged laser. So they can last long against Goku. 
See how does that work? I think you are abusing term light speed too much.
Blast bolt=/=lightspeed.


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## TSC (Jan 12, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> He can't do that.


Isn't Instant Transmission consider a teleporting technique?


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2009)

LionFranky said:


> Spiderman and Zoro dodged laser. So they can last long against Goku.
> See how does that work? I think you are abusing term light speed too much.
> Blast bolt=/=lightspeed.



Charric Guns fire actual masers, I'm not talking about blasters here.


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## Akatora (Jan 12, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> He can't do that.




I think the answer your looking for is "He won't do that"

Instant transmission>>>>>> Speed of light on long distances


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2009)

Good thing IT has nothing to do with Goku's reflexes or reaction speed.


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## Jon Snow (Jan 12, 2009)

IT has to lock on to a ki/life energy signal to work. Just sayin'

Goku wins either way


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## Fang (Jan 12, 2009)

Genki and Ki are two different things, and don't work with the Equivalence Rule with the Force.

Not happening either for Goku.


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## Blaizen (Jan 13, 2009)

Goku flies out of the planet they are fighting on. Goku fire kamehameha at said planet. Said planet explodes with Luke or Vader on it. Goku teleports to New Namek.

Goku=winner


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## Fang (Jan 13, 2009)

He's in the Room of Spirit and Time.

He isn't planet-busting shit.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 13, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> It's consense that Luke would beat Goku.



Wait, since when?

Did I miss a memo or something?

Because I'm not seeing any Star Wars character beat Goku (except for Darth Nihilus because of his crazy life drain power, and Zonama Sekot since it's a sentient FTL planet with crazy mental powers)

Maybe some others could kill him if they got a lucky shot in (Lord Kaan with the Thought Bomb, Rokur Gepta with his Electromagnetic Torpedo) but they likely wouldn't be able to get it done before dying.


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## Fang (Jan 13, 2009)

Palpatine could take over Goku's mind and soul ie Dark Empire Palps even if Goku destroys his body first.

As for Luke, if he takes out Goku's mind first, then he can win, at the start of the fight.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 13, 2009)

Oh, and sorry to double post, but there are so many misconceptions in this thread I just have to address them.



DarthPotato said:


> at any rate, Exar Kun could suck the life out of galaxy's and add them to his power.. i'm pretty sure he could take on Goku..



Kun did no such thing



Blaizen said:


> Goku flies out of the planet at Hyper sonic speeds and blows it up (Saiyans can survive in outer space according to Freeza) then he teleports to Kaioshin's planet before he runs out of air.
> 
> Winner = Goku



Um, Frieza said they *can't* survive in space (this was confirmed by North Kaio and Goku himself)



Rice Ball said:


> Goku would beat Luke and Vader.
> Vegeta has shrugged off Psychic attacks/commands with ease.



Not a traditional psychic attack, since it relied on using the evil inside of a person. Kaioshin said that all you needed to do to resist it was to "clear your mind" - Vegeta allowed himself to be controlled though so he didn't.



Lord Raizen said:


> Please tell me u have never watched dbz before. i hope to god that it be to impossible a feat for a man to be so stupid. if u truely have watched all of dbz, and you can still make such claims, then i have lost all hope for the world.



I believe you meant "read", not watched, since we don't use the anime unless specified.



> Jedi mind techniques work according to the will power of the victim, there weakness of mind



Only light side techniques, dark side techniques can affect a person's mind regardless of conventional willpower, but Jedi don't normally do that since it's considered a dark side power (evil).

Still this only applies to normal beings with high willpower, Goku has a measure of telepathic skill himself - still Luke's is stronger but he would never be able to affect him with it before he died.



> A good example is when vegeta allowed himself to be taken over by babidi. he could have broken free of his mind control, and even after he gained the powerboost he wanted he retained control of his mind.



See above



> babidi was the most powerful sorceroro in the universe, able to control beings of godly power.



Only by using the evil inside of them



> Dabura king of demons, a man stronger than perfect cell.



That's arguable, actually - there is no real concensus about who was stronger between Dabura and Cell



> Majin buu, a being who was not only a threat to the universe but all deminsions.



Only because originally Bibidi brought him from planet to planet in that ball and he destroyed them - and later on he learned the Kaioshin teleportation technique so he could go to other dimensions.

And Babibi never controlled him, he bossed him around by using the threat of sealing him back in that ball with a spell, but Buu eventually thought of choking him so he couldn't talk and killing him.



> a being who destroyed the gods of dbz verse.



Not very impressive gods compared to what are normally thought of as gods.



> These creatures were over come by babidi



Babidi never controlled Buu with that technique

[quote[but vageta cold have broken it, and goku is FAR stronger than vegeta, especially by the end of the series.[/quote]

Vegeta had evil in him, Goku didn't.



> his will power is beyond comprehension, and his speed and strength, as well as energy supply were beyond measure. goku as a child in gt, was said to be able to power a galaxy with his energy



GT is not canon.....



> and as a super saiyan four, he could tear the universe a part with his power.



No he couldn't, and GT is not canon anyway 



> there is no way his mind could be over come, and there is no way anyone would survive a fight with him if he was bloodlusted.



Now that is just bullshit - sure he beats Vader and Luke but there are a shitload of characters who could kill him easily and solo the entire DBU casually.



Rice Ball said:


> Eh, i guess your trying to tell me that Jedi has a greater Magnitude of psychic powers than Babidi? While he hasn't done great feats, talking to a whole planet using psychic powers (when the population have no psychic powers) is a big feat, whats even better is he was able to read the thoughts of EVERYONE on the planet and filter it down to the information he needed (without going insane like Prof X would).
> 
> Resisting this type of persons hold on you shows a good ammount of resistance, enough at least to stop them from fucking with you, giving you the 3 seconds you'd need to turn them into ash.



He used a different power on them than on Vegeta



TWF said:


> Goku doesn't have any psyhic abilities other than passive telepathy and that requires him to physically touch a person.



Wrong, he can only read their memories by touching them, he can communicate without doing so.



> And Babidi never talked to an entire planet, he used Telepathy to talk to the population at the city where the Tenachi Budokai took place at during the Majin Buu arc.



It was the whole planet



> As for Luke using Telepathic attacks, he doesn't require overtly active concentration to perform them. He was doing those things nigh instanteously against Raynar and others in later EU works.



Uh - huh, I love the careful quantification you've given to that 



> Luke can win this if he uses his Shatterpoints and Precognition at the start and puts it all in severing Goku's mental connections. Otherwise Goku will destroy him. And in either case, Luke has reacted to instanteous weapons like Paddle-Beamers without using Precognition.



Um, no, he was using precognition. That's how he was able to react to them, unless you think he can actually move "faster than instantaneous"



Kind of a big deal said:


> As a concience question, why is it that generally by default EU is accepted in the OBD but movie/anime/GT feats in DBZ are not accepted?
> 
> Is is a sort of pre-emptive way to counter the arguments of potentially obnoxious fanboys?



Because the EU (well, most of it) is canon according to the official copyright holder (since George Lucas has delegated the management of canon to Leland Chee), and in the case of Dragonball, there has never been an official canon policy released so we go with the default - the original work by the creator (the manga). It's the same with most other mangas that have an anime based on them. No one uses filler Naruto, Bleach, or One Piece in a battle (unless the OP says it's okay)


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## Endless Mike (Jan 13, 2009)

TWF said:


> Palpatine could take over Goku's mind and soul ie Dark Empire Palps even if Goku destroys his body first.



That's arguable



> As for Luke, if he takes out Goku's mind first, then he can win, at the start of the fight.



If you expect Goku to just stand there and not blast or punch him immediately


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## Fang (Jan 13, 2009)

I expect Luke to be faster since his speed of thought is well beyond Goku's to nail him with a psyhic attack.

As for DE Palpatine, it isn't arguable since Palp was baiting DE Luke to strike him down. And last I checked, Goku has no telepathic or astral defenses. He destroys Palpatine's body, then Palpatine takes over his own body and mind/soul.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 13, 2009)

TWF said:


> I expect Luke to be faster since his speed of thought is well beyond Goku's to nail him with a psyhic attack.



No, that's his precognition - useless in a situation like this.



> As for DE Palpatine, it isn't arguable since Palp was baiting DE Luke to strike him down. And last I checked, Goku has no telepathic or astral defenses. He destroys Palpatine's body, then Palpatine takes over his own body and mind/soul.



Yeah, that worked really well when Ginyu tried it.... I mean it could work but I doubt Palpatine would be able to really do anything effective in Goku's body and would have to abandon it later.

Honestly, I am probably infamous for being a guy who always argues against DBZ but I am not as crazy as thinking they lose this.


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## Fang (Jan 13, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> No, that's his precognition - useless in a situation like this.



Good thing he's reacted to Sii-ruuk Paddle-Beamers without it. And even without his Precongition he's showcased massively hypersonic reflexes and reaction speed.

Not that it matters but first thought that kicks off in Goku's head is going to be slower than Luke's.



> Yeah, that worked really well when Ginyu tried it.... I mean it could work but I doubt Palpatine would be able to really do anything effective in Goku's body and would have to abandon it later.



Fallacy. Aside from massive PIS and a mechanic that works only in Dragon Ball, there is no outside force or intervention here helping Goku.



> Honestly, I am probably infamous for being a guy who always argues against DBZ but I am not as crazy as thinking they lose this.



That really is neither here or there.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Jan 13, 2009)

Luke deflected masers in The Swarm War. They move at light speeds, therefore Luke mind rapes before Goku can do anything.


----------



## Darth (Jan 13, 2009)

rawrawraw said:


> Luke deflected masers in The Swarm War. They move at light speeds, therefore Luke mind rapes before Goku can do anything.



isn't this thread "Vader vs. Goku"?

not Luke vs. Goku...

and for the record, instant transmission is faster than light..


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 13, 2009)

TWF said:


> Good thing he's reacted to Sii-ruuk Paddle-Beamers without it.



Citation please



> And even without his Precongition he's showcased massively hypersonic reflexes and reaction speed.



Such as?



> Not that it matters but first thought that kicks off in Goku's head is going to be slower than Luke's.



I doubt this



> Fallacy. Aside from massive PIS and a mechanic that works only in Dragon Ball, there is no outside force or intervention here helping Goku.



The point was that someone without Goku's training won't know how to use his body effectively



> Luke deflected masers in The Swarm War. They move at light speeds, therefore Luke mind rapes before Goku can do anything.



Say it with me:*Pre-Cog-Nit-Ion*

In other words, he sees a vision of the masers being fired in the future, then positions himself to block them before they are fired, and when they are, he deflects them.

That is not going to work against an attacker who not only moves faster than him but can change direction and tactics in mid-attack and saturate the area with massive AoE blasts


----------



## Superior (Jan 13, 2009)

Goku's organs aren't strong enough to withstand the crushing power of the dark side.


----------



## Fang (Jan 13, 2009)

Goku doesn't move faster than those masers, and even Luke did so to the Paddle Beamers (I'll provide the quote for this later) needless to say your pretty damn wrong this time EM.


----------



## Estrecca (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> Goku doesn't move faster than those masers, and even Luke did so to the Paddle Beamers (I'll provide the quote for this later) needless to say your pretty damn wrong this time EM.



Let's just say that I happen to believe that he is pretty damn right. Even if such a passage actually exists in some novel, it is more likely than not Spiderman vs Firelord. 

Consider me added to EM's demand for quotes and I would also like you to provide evidence of Luke mental manipulation in this level in a situation like this, if at all possible.


----------



## Aokiji (Jan 14, 2009)

DarthPotato said:


> isn't this thread "Vader vs. Goku"?
> 
> not Luke vs. Goku...
> 
> and for the record, instant transmission is faster than light..



I am taller than 200 pounds.

that's how much sense you make.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Estrecca said:


> Let's just say that I happen to believe that he is pretty damn right. Even if such a passage actually exists in some novel, it is more likely than not Spiderman vs Firelord.



There are plenty instances of Luke using Telepathy on people, offensively, defensively, illusion control and so on. Hell during the middle of a dog fight with Pirates during the Hand of Thrawn duology, Luke was tempted to mentally control every single crew of the pirate fleet until he realized he'd be stepping up toward the darkside and had visions of Palpatine and Exar Kun mocking him.

So your wrong. Try more like Xavier vs Namor. Any in any case, Luke has showcased the routine ability to severe neurons, rewire synapses, alter memories and the mind-sets of people for a long time. Black Fleet Trilogy, Truce at Bakura, Swarm War when he compelled the entire Jedi Order across the galaxy to met him at Ossus and so on.



> Consider me added to EM's demand for quotes and I would also like you to provide evidence of Luke mental manipulation in this level in a situation like this, if at all possible.




*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Truce at Bakura pg. 250 said:
			
		

> One alien raised a paddle. A thin silver beam shot out of its narrow point. Confidently Luke stepped toward the beam and swung his saber into it.
> 
> It didn't deflect. It only bent slightly. Before he could react, the beam swept through him. It left his midsection tingling. Relieved that it didn't do worse, he adjusted his grip on the lightsaber. The second alien moved out from behind the first and added his beam, aiming low, shooting for his legs. The first shot hadn't injured him noticeably but a second might. He pivoted aside, setting one brown Sii-ruu in front of the other.
> 
> ...







*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Truce at Bakura pg.283 said:
			
		

> The massive blue Ssi-ruu dove toward Luke through the broad hatch, warbling and whistling. It fired a steady silver beam. Dodging, Luke raised his saber and bent the beam toward a P'w'eck in the narrow hatchway. It collapsed, forelimbs flailing.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

What is this nonsense?  Goku busts the planet and IT's to safety.

/thread.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Too bad they aren't fighting on a planet but in the dimension of Spirit and Time ie the Hyperbolic Spirit Chamber.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> Too bad they aren't fighting on a planet but in the dimension of Spirit and Time ie the Hyperbolic Spirit Chamber.



Where was that stated?  I don't see any location for this battle in the OP.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Its one of the rules of the OBD.

Read up buddy.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

Provide a link, buddy.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Kyasurin Yakuto

Derp derp derp.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jan 14, 2009)

I actually just now noticed this. 



> *Settings:*
> Even though this is called the Battle_dome_, often times I've seen people speak as if the fight is occurring on a street or in a forest. This is a fairly important issue, because many fighters game plans drastically change depending on their surroundings.
> 
> Unless otherwise stated, the battle should take place in an unobstructed dome similar to the Room of Spirit and Time, thus allowing for large-scale fighters, like Dark Schneider and Vegitto, to still have space move around.


----------



## Estrecca (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> There are plenty instances of Luke using Telepathy on people, offensively, defensively, illusion control and so on. Hell during the middle of a dog fight with Pirates during the Hand of Thrawn duology, Luke was tempted to mentally control every single crew of the pirate fleet until he realized he'd be stepping up toward the darkside and had visions of Palpatine and Exar Kun mocking him.



Yes. I know that Luke Skywalker is a powerful telepath and know instances of him using his telepathy offensively, defensively and that he is capable of creating illusions. I also know the incident you refer to.



			
				Specter of the Past said:
			
		

> "Yeah, I see them," Han said tightly. "Okay. What do you want to do?" Luke looked out at the incoming pirates, a sudden tightening sensation in his stomach. There were many options, of course. He could reach out with the Force and damage the ships' control surfaces, crippling them. He might even be able to wrench off whole hull plates or deform the weapons emplacements, tearing them apart with the Force alone. Or he could simply reach inside to the crews' minds, turning them into helpless observers or even forcing them to surrender. For a Jedi Master with the Force as his ally, there were no limits. No limits at all.



How does this apply even remotely to the situation that Luke faces in a match against Goku? In Specter of the Past, he isn't being attacked personally and evidently is in position to use his mental powers at his leisure.

That is not the case against Goku. Luke has a lot of power that he simply cannot summon fast enough in this situation to change the outcome. Try again if you have a more relevant example.

Oh. And even suggesting that those quotes from Truce at Bakura somehow prove that Luke can react against lightspeed attacks is absolutely _ridiculous_. Luke can obviously see the aliens that are attacking him, so at best it can be argued that he _dodges the aim_ of the paddle-beamers.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> Kyasurin Yakuto
> 
> Derp derp derp.



Well done. 

Now, allow me to rephrase:

Goku uses a planet-busting attack on the area, obliterating Vader and still winning, but leaving the area in perfect condition.  

Common sense HURR DURR. :WOW


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Estrecca said:


> How does this apply even remotely to the situation that Luke faces in a match against Goku? In Specter of the Past, he isn't being attacked personally and evidently is in position to use his mental powers at his leisure.



Your over-rating Goku, massively.

He was in a high speed dog-fight with pirates. He wasn't doing anything while just being left alone from the pirates.

Here's another quote to tickle your fancy.


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Dark Nest I-The Joiner King pg.5 said:
			
		

> [sic]*...Come fast...*The voice arose inside Tahiri's mind, clear and distinct and eerily familiar. *Come now.*
> 
> The words seemed to fade even as Jacen Solo perceived them, sinking below the threshold of awareness and vanishing into the boggy underlayers of his mind. Yet the message remained, the conviction that the time had come to answer the call he had been feeling over the last few weeks. He unfolded his legs - he was sitting cross-legged in the air - and lowered his feet to the floor of the meditation circle.








> Oh. And even suggesting that those quotes from Truce at Bakura somehow prove that Luke can react against lightspeed attacks is absolutely _ridiculous_. Luke can obviously see the aliens that are attacking him, so at best it can be argued that he _dodges the aim_ of the paddle-beamers.



Fallacy, Suspension of Disblief. Paddle-Beamers are instanteous attacks, not lightspeed moving attacks like Charric Guns which fire masers. They arrive at the point the moment they are fired. Hence instanteous weaponary.

Also the quote provided states "dodging" the beam, not the aim, but the beam itself, after it was fired. He was reacting to basically the same thing equivalent to teleportation.

And there's also the fact that Luke was able to quickly build up power in the Force to counter RaynarThul's Telekentic attacks at the end of Dark Nest III: Swarm War.

And even more so, Luke could simply create an illusion of himself from the memories in Goku's mind and the Saiyan will falter, leaving him another chance to take him down.


----------



## Aokiji (Jan 14, 2009)

Disorderly Conduct said:


> What is this nonsense?  *Goku busts the planet and IT's to safety.*
> 
> /thread.



Why would he have to bust the planet if he can just nuke the site of the battle?  

And he can't even IT to safety in the _DBverse_ (read the destruction of earth in the last volume) how is he gonna do it in the OBD, which even if it was set on earth wouldn't make sense as there is no Kaio's planet or Namek where the battle is set. And he can only teleport when there are ki signatures.

In short go sleep.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Jan 14, 2009)

Ok, so Raditz could destroy mountain ranges wth generic ki blasts.  Goku is literally about 1 million times stronger than him by the end of the series.  

Goku can just pepper a few dozen of those at the start of the fight and see if Luke can block them with his damn lightsaber.  This seems like a joke thread to me...


----------



## Estrecca (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> He was in a high speed dog-fight with pirates. He wasn't doing anything while just being left alone from the pirates.



Exactly. Here, let me give you an slightly expanded quote.



> At her urging, he'd been spending more time lately in meditation, hoping that immersing himself in the Force would help. So far, though, there had been no results.
> "Luke?" Han's voice said into his helmet. Where are you?"
> Luke shook his thoughts back to the task at hand. "I'm above you and a little to portside," he said. "I don't see anything out here that looks like a pirate ship. You?"
> "Not yet," Han said. "Don't worry; when they get here, you'll know it."
> ...



The pirates were still incoming and no shots had been exchanged yet. In other words, this does not apply. At all.



> Here's another quote to tickle your fancy.



Wow. So he can summon Jedi that he has trained (hint: Force bonds), although some can resist it for weeks. Not to mention that there is no hint whatsoever of how long it took to broadcast the summons. 

That Luke has power and range nobody argues against. But he still isn't fast enough to put Goku under his control before being killed.



> Fallacy, Suspension of Disblief. Paddle-Beamers are instanteous attacks, not lightspeed moving attacks like Charric Guns which fire masers. They arrive at the point the moment they are fired. Hence instanteous weaponary.
> 
> Also the quote provided states "dodging" the beam, not the aim, but the beam itself, after it was fired. He was reacting to basically the same thing equivalent to teleportation.



Problems manifold.

1) Where are you getting that paddle beamers are instantaneous? I don't remember any such info from when I read _Truce At Bakura_, there is nothing _*at all*_ in SD.net about these supposed instabeams and both Wookieepedia and certain threads at theforce.net forums describe paddle beamers as ion guns. You better have a nuke-proof quote to provide, because right now this particular claim looks flimsier than the warp core of the Enterprise-D.

2) You also claim that Luke can dodge a beam that moves at "instantaneous speed" after the beam has been fired. I do not think that it is necessary to explain what is wrong with this statement, unless you plan to argue that Luke Skywalker can resist a speedblitz from the Flash or the Shrike.

3) The timing of this cinches the deal. Truce At Bakura happens in the immediate aftermath of the battle of Endor (less than a month after the destruction of the DSII), so this is the Luke that we see in ROTJ. Suggesting that he can dodge even close range lightspeed attacks after being fired _at this point_ is ludicrous in too many levels to count.



> And there's also the fact that Luke was able to quickly build up power in the Force to counter RaynarThul's Telekentic attacks at the end of Dark Nest III: Swarm War.



You mean this:



			
				Dark Nest III said:
			
		

> The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.
> *But this time, Luke was ready.* He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
> Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.
> Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.



A sentence laden with obvious hyperbole that refers to an attack for which Luke was prepared... Do you have something better?



> And even more so, Luke could simply create an illusion of himself from the memories in Goku's mind and the Saiyan will falter, leaving him another chance to take him down.



Doesn't this require, you know, time for Luke to come up with such an strategy? Time that he will not have in this match?


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Estrecca said:


> That Luke has power and range nobody argues against. But he still isn't fast enough to put Goku under his control before being killed.



Yes he is.



> 1) Where are you getting that paddle beamers are instantaneous? I don't remember any such info from when I read _Truce At Bakura_, there is nothing _*at all*_ in SD.net about these supposed instabeams and both Wookieepedia and certain threads at theforce.net forums describe paddle beamers as ion guns. You better have a nuke-proof quote to provide, because right now this particular claim looks flimsier than the warp core of the Enterprise-D.





			
				Truce at Bakura said:
			
		

> *One alien raised a paddle. A thin silver beam shot out of its narrow point. Confidently Luke stepped toward the beam and swung his saber into it.
> 
> It didn't deflect. It only bent slightly. Before he could react, the beam swept through him. It left his midsection tingling.* Relieved that it didn't do worse, he adjusted his grip on the lightsaber. The second alien moved out from behind the first and added his beam, aiming low, shooting for his legs. The first shot hadn't injured him noticeably but a second might. He pivoted aside, setting one brown Sii-ruu in front of the other.





> 2) You also claim that Luke can dodge a beam that moves at "instantaneous speed" after the beam has been fired. I do not think that it is necessary to explain what is wrong with this statement, unless you plan to argue that Luke Skywalker can resist a speedblitz from the Flash or the Shrike.



Don't put words in my mouth. Instanteous attacks or Teleportation have nothing to with time, which isn't involved, similar to Goku's Shoukan Idou. He reacted to Teleportation which is what a Paddle-Beamer is similar to.



> 3) The timing of this cinches the deal. Truce At Bakura happens in the immediate aftermath of the battle of Endor (less than a month after the destruction of the DSII), so this is the Luke that we see in ROTJ. Suggesting that he can dodge even close range lightspeed attacks after being fired _at this point_ is ludicrous in too many levels to count.



Argument ad naseum. Paddle-Beamers fire instanteous beams, nothing to do with speed or lightspeed velocities at all.



> A sentence laden with obvious hyperbole that refers to an attack for which Luke was prepared... Do you have something better?



Other than ignorning the part where he was able to overpower RaynarThul was able to command with all the Force potential of his own, the Killicks and Joiners at his command, nigh instanteously.



> Doesn't this require, you know, time for Luke to come up with such an strategy? Time that he will not have in this match?



Luke's speed of thought is above Goku's, especially when you know, he has showcased time and time again of reading people's minds and feelings and using illusions and Telepathy.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> Too bad they aren't fighting on a planet but in the dimension of Spirit and Time ie the Hyperbolic Spirit Chamber.





> Its one of the rules of the OBD.




Also, I shall respond to this with a quote from EvilMoogle:



EvilMoogle said:


> Actually you'll note there are no rules regarding how people debate in the OBD.  There are suggestions for making your debate effective, and many social conventions for what is and is not accepted, but no rules.



You would think this obvious from the name of the thread you linked, derp.

I'll give you an A for effort, but try again.  Actually, don't.  Try that is.  You've already amused me enough.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> It's consense that Luke would beat Goku. Can his father do the same?



No location specified by the OP, therefore by the rules, they fight in the Room of Spirit and Time unless otherwise stated.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

If that is where you want to assume the fight takes place, that is perfectly fine.  Goku still wins via ki nuke.  I simply made a point that there are no RULES, just assumptions; this was even stated by a mod, and evidenced by that thread's title.


----------



## Estrecca (Jan 14, 2009)

Enough with the Wall of Ignorance already, TWF. We do not see eye-to-eye in SW versus, but you can do better than this.  



TWF said:


> Yes he is.



So you say. Now you only have to prove it. With quantifiable proof, rather than vague hyperbole.



> Don't put words in my mouth. Instanteous attacks or Teleportation have nothing to with time, which isn't involved, similar to Goku's Shoukan Idou. He reacted to Teleportation which is what a Paddle-Beamer is similar to.



Yeah. Right. I am putting words in your mouth.



> Paddle-Beamers are *instanteous attacks*, not lightspeed moving attacks like Charric Guns which fire masers. *They arrive at the point the moment they are fired. Hence instanteous weaponary*.
> Also the quote provided states *"dodging" the beam, not the aim, but the beam itself, after it was fired*. He was reacting to basically the same thing equivalent to teleportation.



Your words. Your claims. Your burden of proof. And how exactly does the sentences you have bolded prove anything at all?



> One alien raised a paddle. A thin silver beam shot out of its narrow point. Confidently Luke stepped toward the beam and swung his saber into it.
> It didn't deflect. It only bent slightly. Before he could react, the beam swept through him. It left his midsection tingling.



1) Luke actually moved towards the beam because he thought that he could deflect it with his lightsaber.

2) Luke couldn't react in time to dodge the beam. 

EDIT: Are you trying to undermine your own argument or something?



> Argument ad naseum. Paddle-Beamers fire instanteous beams, nothing to do with speed or lightspeed velocities at all.



If I am supposed to swallow that paddle beamers fire instabeams in the first place, you should prove that they do such a thing in the first place. Because when every single source in the fandom fails to confirm your claims there is something fishy going on.



			
				CUSWE said:
			
		

> Ion Beamer: A paddle-shaped medical instrument used by the Ssi-ruuvi to immobilize their prisoners. These devices were also called ion paddle beamers. These devices affected humans and most humanoids in the same way a DEMP gun affected droids: electromagnetic impulses within the nervous system of the target were disrupted, cutting off the target's control of their body. Like other Ssi-ruuvi technology, these weapons were powered by enteched life-energy, which provided a variable energy source. New Republic technicians who tried to attach standard power packs simply burned out the beamer. The beam which was generated could not be deflected by the blade of a lightsaber, although it did bend around the lightsaber's blade.





> Other than ignorning the part where he was able to overpower RaynarThul was able to command with all the Force potential of his own, the Killicks and Joiners at his command, nigh instanteously.



Nigh instantaneously?



> But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.
> Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. *Raynar continued to struggle*, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.
> Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar *stopped struggling* and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.



This is just a glorified telekinetic . Luke shows lots of power, as usual towards the end of his career, but this says nothing quantifialbe about his speed.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Estrecca said:


> So you say. Now you only have to prove it. With quantifiable proof, rather than vague hyperbole.



Do I need to post the quote of Luke tossing a lightsaber and controlling it with the Force the point of striking down seven superhuman aliens (Noghrii) in the span it took a human heart to beat once?

Or Luke making so many after images with his saber and body movement that Jacen, Jaina and the Vong Slayers couldn't follow his movements and that he literally physically disappeared in both the Force (when it came to tracking hiim) and human sight with a dozen strikes that no one could follow his movements at the end of NJO?



> Yeah. Right. I am putting words in your mouth.



Yes, yes you quite are.



> Your words. Your claims. Your burden of proof. And how exactly does the sentences you have bolded prove anything at all?



Which I've already showcased.



> 1) Luke actually moved towards the beam because he thought that he could deflect it with his lightsaber.
> 
> 2) Luke couldn't react in time to dodge the beam.



This was Luke's first time with dealing with Paddle-Beamer weapons technology. When he was aboard the Sii-ruuvi cruiser, it was a different case, altogether.



> If I am supposed to swallow that paddle beamers fire instabeams in the first place, you should prove that they do such a thing in the first place. Because when every single source in the fandom fails to confirm your claims there is something fishy going on.





			
				Truce at Bakura pg. 283 said:
			
		

> The massive blue Ssi-ruu dove toward Luke through the broad hatch, warbling and whistling. It fired a steady silver beam. Dodging, Luke raised his saber and bent the beam toward a P'w'eck in the narrow hatchway. It collapsed, forelimbs twitching.





> Nigh instantaneously?



Yes lets ignore events such as those Luke has already has to his precedent. Dodging blaster fire with Force-enhanced reflexes, disappearing from the sights of Jacen and Jaina, along with Vong-Slayers who could match them in speed, reflexes and power (hell an Alpha Red ridden Slayer stomped on Kyp Durron) and so on.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> Goku doesn't move faster than those masers, and even Luke did so to the Paddle Beamers (I'll provide the quote for this later) needless to say your pretty damn wrong this time EM.



He doesn't have to - he just needs to move faster than Luke can move physically, and nuke the area before he can summon a telepathic assault. Which he can.



TWF said:


> Your over-rating Goku, massively.
> 
> He was in a high speed dog-fight with pirates.



Estrecca proved this was a blatant lie.



> Also the quote provided states "dodging" the beam, not the aim, but the beam itself, after it was fired. He was reacting to basically the same thing equivalent to teleportation.



No, the first quote says that after the beam was fired, he moved his lightsaber to try to deflect it (reacting after it was fired). The second quote can easily be explained by precog/aim dodging.



> And even more so, Luke could simply create an illusion of himself from the memories in Goku's mind and the Saiyan will falter, leaving him another chance to take him down.



Is this before or after Goku just nukes the area in the first millisecond?



Aokiji said:


> And he can't even IT to safety in the _DBverse_ (read the destruction of earth in the last volume) .



Um, he did.... that's how they ended up on Kaioshin's planet instead of just dying in space when Buu blew up the earth.



TWF said:


> Luke's speed of thought is above Goku's.



Still waiting for you to prove this. He certainly can react to faster things due to precognition, but this only applies in certain scenarios and not in a fight where he's not allowed to do anything before the fight starts and immediately afterwards he'll have massive AOE attacks blasting his entire area.



TWF said:


> Do I need to post the quote of Luke tossing a lightsaber and controlling it with the Force the point of striking down seven superhuman aliens (Noghrii) in the span it took a human heart to beat once?



Doesn't sound any more impressive than Krillin-Roshi



> Or Luke making so many after images with his saber and body movement that Jacen, Jaina and the Vong Slayers couldn't follow his movements and that he literally physically disappeared in both the Force (when it came to tracking hiim) and human sight with a dozen strikes that no one could follow his movements at the end of NJO?



Goku has been disappearing from the perception of superhuman people since way back in Dragonball. Hell, practically everyone in the series does that. You will need something more.

Not to mention Goku can fly and Luke can't



> Yes lets ignore events such as those Luke has already has to his precedent. Dodging blaster fire with Force-enhanced reflexes



Blaster fire is slower than bullets most of the time



> disappearing from the sights of Jacen and Jaina along with Vong-Slayers who could match them in speed, reflexes and power (hell an Alpha Red ridden Slayer stomped on Kyp Durron) and so on.



And this is impressive compared to Goku's speed.... how?

All he really needs is to just fire one ki blast at the start and nuke the whole area - and Luke won't have time to do anything before he dies.


----------



## Darth Nihilus (Jan 14, 2009)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, he did.... that's how they ended up on Kaioshin's planet instead of just dying in space when Buu blew up the earth.



You mean Kaioshin, not Goku.


----------



## Fang (Jan 14, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> No, the first quote says that after the beam was fired, he moved his lightsaber to try to deflect it (reacting after it was fired). The second quote can easily be explained by precog/aim dodging.



Uh no, now your simply assuming things with groundless claims yourself.



> Blaster fire is slower than bullets most of the time



No, and you know this as well as me and everyone else well informed on Star Wars/Expanded Universe that your claim is bullshit.


----------



## mailer-daemon (Jan 14, 2009)

From what I've read from this read, Goku wins.

A generic Ki blast would flatten anything w/in a few miles of radius (Nappa, Raditz). Can Luke avoid that blast?

He seems to be fast reaction-wise but slow in movement speed.


----------



## Narcissus (Jan 14, 2009)

mailer-daemon said:


> From what I've read from this read, Goku wins.
> 
> A generic Ki blast would flatten anything w/in a few miles of radius (Nappa, Raditz). Can Luke avoid that blast?
> 
> He seems to be fast reaction-wise but slow in movement speed.



No, he couldn't avoid it.  No matter  how fast his reaction time is, he's got no form of protection against an explosion that will cover miles and miles of area.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 14, 2009)

TWF said:


> Uh no, now your simply assuming things with groundless claims yourself.



It's fucking stated directly in the quote.

Do I have to color - code it for you?



			
				Truce at Bakura said:
			
		

> One alien raised a paddle. A thin silver beam shot out of its narrow point. Confidently Luke stepped toward the beam and swung his saber into it.
> It didn't deflect. It only bent slightly. Before he could react, the beam swept through him. It left his midsection tingling.



As you can see, the first action is the Ssi-Ruuk firing the beam

The second action is Luke trying to deflect it with his lightsaber.

The second action occurs chronologically after the first action. This is plain as day and denying this will make you as bad as Phenom when he said that one Superman comic was Pre - Crisis when the publication date was clearly shown in the scan as being 1991.



> No, and you know this as well as me and everyone else well informed on Star Wars/Expanded Universe that your claim is bullshit.



Go watch the movies and count frames - the only time they really approach bulet speed is during the Geonosis arena scene.


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## Fang (Jan 15, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Go watch the movies and count frames - the only time they really approach bulet speed is during the Geonosis arena scene.



They have it not only during the Genosis battle arena but also during the break out when the Clone Troopers are charging Confederacy positions on the plains and deserts and again in RoTS, most notably during the fight on the Wookie homeworld.

This was cleared up in SD.net several times.


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## zoro_santoryu (Jan 15, 2009)

Goku takes this


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## Narcissus (Jan 15, 2009)

It seems to me that the general consensus of this thread is that Goku wins.  In fact, I think I'll add this to his victories in the OBD wiki.


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## Quasar (Jan 15, 2009)

I never knew the star wars universe individuals with no flight or speed were so strong. I always thought they were very acrobatic people with force powers.


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## Kalashnikov (Jan 16, 2009)

Quasar said:


> I never knew the star wars universe individuals with no flight or speed were so strong. I always thought they were very acrobatic people with force powers.



It's books. All books. Which for me are like DB GT for Dragon Ball verse.


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## Fang (Jan 16, 2009)

Except EU is offically apart of the canonicty of Star Wars and GT has nothing but Toriyama contributing a single character design then telling Toei to sod off while he relaxed with his hundreds of millions of bucks.


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## Aokiji (Jan 16, 2009)

It's also not just books.


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## Darth (Jan 16, 2009)

Aokiji said:


> It's also not just books.



it's basically comics, books, movies, and cartoon adaptations..


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## Seyta (Jan 16, 2009)

DarthPotato said:


> it's basically comics, books, movies, and cartoon adaptations..



This sums it up quite nicely


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## Starrk (Jan 16, 2009)

The only thing left is personal opinion.


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## Itachi2000 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Goku FTW*s


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