# How can Sasuke possibly compare to Naruto?



## Orxon (May 6, 2011)

At the start of Part 1, Sasuke was obviously considered superior to Naruto, vastly so, in physical combat. He was faster, smarter and a damn sight more talented.

Yet as the story continued and Sasuke abused his sharingan, he's relied less and less on taijutsu and more on his kekkei genkai. Meanwhile, not only did Naruto achieve Sage Mode which boosted his physical abilities tremendously and actually made him formidable but he now has RM on top of that and is seemingly comparable (or even superior)to the fourth.

Sasuke has gained EMS which simply bolsters his sharingan. It does nothing for his speed, strength or combat skill and I daresay Naruto left him behind in this regard a long time ago.

My point is, even with his powerful doujutsu, how can Sasuke even keep up with Naruto? He's still the same Sasuke who was knocked around by A and Kirabi, Naruto is his worst nightmare


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## animeguy91 (May 6, 2011)

Orxon said:


> At the start of Part 1, Sasuke was obviously considered superior to Naruto, vastly so, in physical combat. He was faster, smarter and a damn sight more talented.
> 
> Yet as the story continued and Sasuke abused his sharingan, he's relied less and less on taijutsu and more on his kekkei genkai. Meanwhile, not only did Naruto achieve Sage Mode which boosted his physical abilities tremendously and actually made him formidable but he now has RM on top of that and is seemingly comparable (or even superior)to the fourth.
> 
> ...



your starting a very trollish thread


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## Dim Mak (May 6, 2011)




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## BlinkST (May 6, 2011)

Orxon said:


> My point is, even with his powerful doujutsu, how can Sasuke even keep up with Naruto? He's still the same Sasuke who was knocked around by A and Kirabi, Naruto is his worst nightmare


Sasuke hasn't gotten worse, but improved. His reflexes are obviously on the level of Raikage with the shroud, which by itself actually puts him past Minato's level.






A shinobi needs the proper reflexes to make use of their speed. Any shinobi can move at any speed, but without the reflexes to react to the enemy's counter, their speed becomes useless in battle. You see this from how Sasuke counters Raikage's elbow, or how Raikage hits the brakes when Sasuke ingites Susanoo, which not just anyone can perform.

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Unless Naruto has reflexes on the Raikage's level, Sasuke has nothing to worry about, so this isn't a done deal. Bee caught Sasuke while he had his back turned and distracted. It's not much of a speed feat. Sasuke again, otherwise has reflexes comparable to his brother.


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## Angevelinka (May 6, 2011)

I'd dare to say that when it comes to comparing them, Sasuke only improves his Kekkei Genkai because it's his best ability and when it comes to defeating enemies - everything he needs to improve. 
Naruto may improve speed, taijutsu, get Sage Mode and new rasengans, but even if he has million of cards and they all are aces, Sasuke only needs to have one that has written 'Joker' on it to make those million useless. it's quality over quantity.

Which, is of course, basing in the way you're looking at this topic. I personally think that Sasuke has already too many different jutsus to own Naruto on all fields because of the range of the attacks and not because of their counter-ness. Naruto on the other hand, improves too little and uses too little of his potential. And I'm saying this knowing that Naruto will have to, if not win, then at least have upper hand at some point over Sasuke simply because of the fact he is the main hero of this manga.


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## Palpatine (May 6, 2011)

He won't. Naruto will one-shot him.


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## animeguy91 (May 6, 2011)

Funkfreed said:


> He won't. Naruto will one-shot him.



you dont really think thats ganna happen do you ?


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## GentleFistMaster (May 6, 2011)

Blinx said:


> Sasuke hasn't gotten worse, but improved. His reflexes are obviously on the level of Raikage with the shroud, which by itself actually puts him past Minato's level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke doesn't have the reflexes to contend with A and Minato.  It's his sharingan that gives him the ability to read his opponents moves.  In Part I he wasn't able to counter naruto in is initial jinchuriki form until his sharingan gained a third tomoe and he coud see to counter. Same goes for the second panel you showed while they were charging head on and sasuke had his eyes on A he was able to read his moves and counter effectively, it is absolutely not a speed feat.  RM naruto is definitely faster than sasuke.


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

just one question: lolwtf?

Who the hell is he to talk about Minato when he's likely never ever seen him?

He's, at the oldest, 20. Which means what...he was 4 when Minato died?


And this is fairly damn definitive in terms of who's faster.

Link removed


Granted, Naruto needs to up his reaction time, but even using the same character:

Sasuke: "He can keep up with me!"

Naruto: "Wait, what just happened?"


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## GentleFistMaster (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> just one question: lolwtf?
> 
> Who the hell is he to talk about Minato when he's likely never ever seen him?
> 
> He's, at the oldest, 20. Which means what...he was 4 when Minato died?



People always discuss him on this site because they use him as a benchmark to measure speed in the narutoverse.  If anyone wants to talk about how godly someone's speed is they drop his name.


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

Since I fel like making this point a second time, and since GFM posted as i was editing:

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Granted, Naruto needs to up his reaction time, but even using the same character:

Sasuke: "He can keep up with me!"

Naruto: "Wait, what just happened?"


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## animeguy91 (May 6, 2011)

GentleFistMaster said:


> Sasuke doesn't have the reflexes to contend with A and Minato.  It's his sharingan that gives him the ability to read his opponents moves.  In Part I he wasn't able to counter naruto in is initial jinchuriki form until his sharingan gained a third tomoe and he coud see to counter. Same goes for the second panel you showed while they were charging head on and sasuke had his eyes on A he was able to read his moves and counter effectively, it is absolutely not a speed feat.  RM naruto is definitely faster than sasuke.



how can you say that when his new eyes havent been shown yet?


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> how can you say that when his new eyes havent been shown yet?



A) How would his eyes make him faster?

B) HIS NEW EYES LET HIM SHOOT LASER BEAMS AND MAKE PUPPIES INTO CHOCOLATE!  Same validity as making any other point about them.


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## Ibb (May 6, 2011)

Naruto vs Sasuke is quickly becoming Rikudo eyes vs Rikudo body.

Naruto being the "body" with all the physically buffs he's been getting, while Sasuke is the "eyes" with several doujutsu and such.


That said, I've been wondering for a few weeks now if EMS is really going to be Sasuke's final upgrade.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

Orxon said:


> At the start of Part 1, Sasuke was obviously considered superior to Naruto, vastly so, in physical combat. He was faster, smarter and a damn sight more talented.
> 
> Yet as the story continued and Sasuke abused his sharingan, he's relied less and less on taijutsu and more on his kekkei genkai. Meanwhile, not only did Naruto achieve Sage Mode which boosted his physical abilities tremendously and actually made him formidable but he now has RM on top of that and is seemingly comparable (or even superior)to the fourth.
> 
> ...



Baby-chan, how can you not see Sasuke's clear superiority?

At the begging of part 2 Sasuke was so far ahead of Naruto in just about every way imaginable that at the very best Naruto's SM would have allowed him to fight evenly with base Sasuke. And chances are even with SM Naruto would have still lost, that's how huge the gap was at the beginning of part 2. 

Even after Sasuke was exhausted and injured Naruto still didn't think he could take him. 
Link removed
"I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level." ~ Naruto


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## PikaCheeka (May 6, 2011)

Orxon said:


> Sasuke has gained *EMS which simply bolsters his sharingan. It does nothing for his speed, strength or combat skill* and I daresay Naruto left him behind in this regard a long time ago.



Thread based around assumption that is pretty much guaranteed to be false.

If a shitstorm arises out of this, it will be rather sad.


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## Pseudo (May 6, 2011)

I was saying this same thing to Itachigarra Most Sharingan users don't try to improve on other areas of their craft.


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## BlinkST (May 6, 2011)

GentleFistMaster said:


> Sasuke doesn't have the reflexes to contend with A and Minato.  It's his sharingan that gives him the ability to read his opponents moves.  In Part I he wasn't able to counter naruto in is initial jinchuriki form until his sharingan gained a third tomoe and he coud see to counter. Same goes for the second panel you showed while they were charging head on and sasuke had his eyes on A he was able to read his moves and counter effectively, it is absolutely not a speed feat.  RM naruto is definitely faster than sasuke.


You're mistaken. Sasuke's body itself needs to be be able to react to what he is seeing with his own speed, otherwise being able to see does not guarantee the ability to react. That must be improved over time. 

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The Sharingan obviously doesn't do that part for him.



jameshawking said:


> just one question: lolwtf?
> 
> Who the hell is he to talk about Minato when he's likely never ever seen him?
> 
> He's, at the oldest, 20. Which means what...he was 4 when Minato died?


They could have gotten it through intel.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

ThePsuedo said:


> I was saying this same thing to Itachigarra Most Sharingan users don't try to improve on other areas of their craft.



They don't really need to. And until Naruto comes up with a reliable way to break genjutsu he stands no chance against Sasuke.


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## ITACHISHOULDHAVEWON (May 6, 2011)

RM=Kyubi, so I expect sasuke can completely neutralize it with his mangekyo (most likely)...Sage mode is a significant upgrade, but doesn't outclass Sasuke. Naruto wasn't the fastest ever in Part 1. SM just makes it so he does not get speed raped. You also seem to ignore many of Sasuke's improvements. He has: 
1. Massively improved chidori. Now it can be used to stun (nagashi), to power up his sword (increased reach), or extended from his hand (sneak attack/reach/defensively epic). 
2. He obtained the mangekyo. Offensively this gives him amaterasu, which is fairly epic. EX: suppose he grabs a hold of naruto, then burns him with amaterasu=instant kill (though I doubt he'd do that...Kishi doesn't blood lust well...). Defensively, the mangekyo arguably gives him better defenses than Naruto (Susano with entons=absolute defense better than Gaara's as long as he has the chakra). 
3. He learned some snake jutsus (like the escape one he used on Itachi). 
Also, whilst Killer Bee did slap him around, it was because: 1. Sasuke did not know Killer Bee's powers. 2. Sasuke was trying to capture Bee (ie. if he were blood lusted, he'd have started with amaterasu and finished Bee before Bee knew what was going on). 
Simply put, as of now the fight is still slightly in Sasuke's favor. I personally think this is why Kishi made Sasuke lose CS2. With it, he would have epicly outclasses Naruto. Without it, Naruto has some chance of winning/the fight is more even. I honestly think you're a troll (OP).


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

It's still one of the most unreliable testimonials in Naruto.  "I got it through Intel that the guy who left almost nobody alive, ever, is matched by our kage!"

Actually, in fact, Killer Bee was 19 when Yondaime was around, and the raikage was, we can assume, at least 20 or 21.

Meaning they were both well on their way to their current positions.

But...yeah.  It's silly.


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## Chibason (May 6, 2011)

Simply put. EMS will bring Sasuke to Naruto's level despite OP's inability to fathom it.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 6, 2011)

Chiba said:


> Simply put. EMS will bring Sasuke to Naruto's level despite OP's inability to fathom it.



This is just as big as an assumption as the opening.

Depending on when Sasuke makes his debut, his power level could be potentially above Naruto's. If Kishi chooses to embrace Sasuke role as a villain more so than a rival.


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## GentleFistMaster (May 6, 2011)

Blinx said:


> You're mistaken. Sasuke's body itself needs to be be able to react to what he is seeing with his own speed, otherwise being able to see does not guarantee the ability to react. That must be improved over time.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Again i draw attention to part I, naruto was absolutely overwhelming sasuke in the speed department once he tapped into the kyuubi's chakra.  It was only when sasuke's sharingan advanced that he was able to predict naruto's moves and counter him effectively and he was able to do without increasing his speed.  A was charging right at sasuke so sasuke had eyes right on him during that point in time giving him the ability to counter. Throughout the rest of the fight sasuke could not keep eyes on A so he was forced to shield himself all around with incomplete susano'o and blaze release. He would not have needed to do so if he had the reflexes to counter A.


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## Saunion (May 6, 2011)

EMS haxx will more than make up for Sasuke's vast inferiority in physicality.


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## Deshi Basara (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Baby-chan, how can you not see Sasuke's clear superiority?
> 
> At the begging of part 2 Sasuke was so far ahead of Naruto in just about every way imaginable* that at the very best Naruto's SM would have allowed him to fight evenly with base Sasuke. And chances are even with SM Naruto would have still lost, that's how huge the gap was at the beginning of part 2.*




WHAT.THE.FUCK. 


Excuse me but we are talking the NARUTO MANGA and not your dreamy, dream manga!

SM Naruto=* BASE * Sascake..  Even after it was stated by Zetsu that SM Naruto *is* > MS Sascake (who hasn't yet used Susano)



> Even after Sasuke was exhausted and injured Naruto still didn't think he could take him.
> Link removed
> "I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level." ~ Naruto



Naruto only said that because he didn't want his precious Sascake dead.And lets ignore the fact that Tobi and Zetsu were there, right?

Sascake fans.. whatcha you gonna do..


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## Chibason (May 6, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> This is just as big as an assumption as the opening.



*EDIT*: Ok, I agree with you. He might be slightly more powerful. For the sake of argument I should say  'around the same level'

@People who agree with OP-

You actually think Sasuke won't be on Naruto's level? 

It's so obvious that it's retarded to debate it. The power he gains will match Naruto otherwise the idea of them being perfect rivals and setting up a big final battle would be irrelevant.


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## Saunion (May 6, 2011)

Protip for the people posting above me: I have the two guys you're quoting on ignore. It makes the whole foruming experience vastly more enjoyable.


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

Chiba said:


> *EDIT*: Ok, I agree with you. For the sake of argument I should say  'around the same level'
> 
> @People who agree with OP-
> 
> ...



They won't be the final battle, as at least one of the final bosses will need to be tackled through their teamwork <.<

It's not only common in Shonen Manga, it's pretty much obvious with the message of teamwork>all


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## Chibason (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> They won't be the final battle, as at least one of the final bosses will need to be tackled through their teamwork <.<
> 
> It's not only common in Shonen Manga, it's pretty much obvious with the message of teamwork>all



I was referring to their big final battle. 

It may, or may not, be the Manga's final battle.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Excuse me but we are talking the NARUTO MANGA and not your dreamy, dream manga!
> 
> SM Naruto=* BASE * Sascake..  Even after it was stated by Zetsu that SM Naruto *is* > MS Sascake (who hasn't yet used Susano)



Zetsu had no way of knowing about Minato's involvement. So obviously he would think that Naruto had far greater control over the Kyuubi than he actually does. Furthermore, Zetsu did not know of Sasuke's abilities with MS. So the best Zetsu could do was judge Sasuke from his performance against Itachi. Of course Zetsu also knew that Sasuke lost the cursed seal and Orochimaru. And even than Zetsu only said, "... he *might* be stronger than you now, Sasuke."
just like he did in the manga

Besides this, SM Naruto really doesn't have anything base Sasuke can't handle. Sasuke sharingan + kenjutsu would ensure a close range victory. Genjutsu would ensure a midrange victory. And Kirin would ensure a long range victory. 

Anything Naruto could throw at him base Sasuke has a counter. But Naruto does not have a reliable counter to Genjutsu.


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

Chiba said:


> I was referring to their big final battle.
> 
> It may, or may not, be the Manga's final battle.



not even necessary.  Naruto roflstomping (relatively) Sasuke would prove to him he was wrong to be evil and creepy and sell himself to Michael Jackson Orochimaru, and will convince him to acknowledge the truth about the Will of Fire and become a good guy again, so that they both can take down Kabuchimaru (who by then will become Orochimaru again)


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## animeguy91 (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> not even necessary.  Naruto roflstomping (relatively) Sasuke would prove to him he was wrong to be evil and creepy and sell himself to Michael Jackson Orochimaru, and will convince him to acknowledge the truth about the Will of Fire and become a good guy again, so that they both can take down Kabuchimaru (who by then will become Orochimaru again)



the truth about the will of fire?....and that would be stupid considering every1 has been waiting ffor this epic fight since part 2 started


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> the truth about the will of fire?....and that would be stupid considering every1 has been waiting ffor this epic fight since part 2 started



...kakuzu fight -shrug-


oh, fyi guys, I already have AKmyWaffle on my ignore list ^^  I recommend you do the same


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## animeguy91 (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> ...kakuzu fight -shrug-
> 
> 
> oh, fyi guys, I already have AKmyWaffle on my ignore list ^^  I recommend you do the same



??? lol what does that mean


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> ??? lol what does that mean



it's evidence of a very hyped, very promising fight being handled horribly and thrown away to showcase something minor.

He'd likely do something similar to prove one of the MAJOR THEMES OF THE ENTIRE THING


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Naruto only said that because he didn't want his precious Sascake dead.And lets ignore the fact that Tobi and Zetsu were there, right?
> 
> Sascake fans.. whatcha you gonna do..



just like he did in the manga
Than why would Naruto need the Kyuubi's chakra to fight Sasuke?

Naruto admitted inferiority, he admitted that he would need a power up to fight Sasuke. How can Kishi make Sasuke superiority to Naruto any more clear?


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## animeguy91 (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> it's evidence of a very hyped, very promising fight being handled horribly and thrown away to showcase something minor.
> 
> He'd likely do something similar to prove one of the MAJOR THEMES OF THE ENTIRE THING



that would make him the moost horrible writer i ever heard of


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## Deshi Basara (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Zetsu had no way of knowing about Minato's involvement. So obviously he would think that Naruto had far greater control over the Kyuubi than he actually does.
> 
> *Besides this, SM Naruto really doesn't have anything Base Sasuke can't handle. *Sasuke sharingan + kenjutsu would ensure a close range victory. Genjutsu would ensure a midrange victory. And Kirin would ensure a long range victory.
> 
> Anything Naruto could throw at him base Sasuke has a counter. But Naruto does not have a reliable counter to Genjutsu.



How about a shitload of frogs?

-Zetsu obviously thought that SM Naru has a way of avoiding/surviving Kirin.

-SM Naru has shitload of ways of countering genjutsu, such as:

-A zillion frogs to break him out 

-Kage bunshin no jutsu (Naru stated that himself in the manga)

-Inserting more chakra to disrupt the chakra flow (that failed against Itachi but it was pre-SM and Sascake is no Itachi when it comes to genjutsu.)


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 6, 2011)

Chiba said:


> *EDIT*: Ok, I agree with you. He might be slightly more powerful. For the sake of argument I should say  'around the same level'
> 
> @People who agree with OP-
> *
> ...



Point in bold, I already answered that question from forming post. Depending on when he is introduced he could be potentially more powerful than Naruto.


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## Chibason (May 6, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Point in bold, I already answered that question from forming post. Depending on when he is introduced he could be potentially more powerful than Naruto.



I already agreed with you, bro. Why aren't you debating the people who thinK Sauce will be _weaker _than Naruto?


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## Deshi Basara (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> just like he did in the manga
> Than why would Naruto need the Kyuubi's chakra to fight Sasuke?





Because Naru needs the Kyuubi EVERY FRIGGING TIME HE FIGHTS?

It's better for Naru to control it than risk innocents getting hurt.


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> that would make him the moost horrible writer i ever heard of



....Shonen manga.

Made for the fights, not for the plots.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> How about a shitload of frogs?



Sasuke took control of Manda via genjutsu. He could take control of Naruto's summons via genjutsu as well. This would effectively counter Naruto's summons and turn them against him. 

Furthermore Sasuke did not need to maintain eye contact with Manda to keep it under genjutsu. This would mean that Sasuke would be free to continue fighting normally even with a frog under his control.


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## jimbob631 (May 6, 2011)

Naruto and Sasuke are bound to be equals when they fight, neither is superior, although there are times when one of them is ahead of the other, Naruto was probably stronger than Sasuke after his wind training, then Sasuke was stronger after gaining orochimaru's powers, then Naruto was stronger when he did sage training, and then Sasuke and Naruto were probably equal after Sasuke gained MS.  

I do disagree with you op about Sasuke being superior to Naruto in part 1.  Sasuke's only notable win was against Naruto, he was just hyped up because everytime he entered a room someone was like "ZOMG HE HAS DA SHARINGAN."  Part 1 Naruto beat Haku, Kiba, Neji, Gaara, actually put up some sort of fight against Orochimaru and hit Kabuto with a rasengan.  Naruto's feats were a lot better until their fight in part 1.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 6, 2011)

Chiba said:


> I already agreed with you, bro. Why aren't you debating the people who thinK Sauce will be _weaker _than Naruto?



Oh shit my fault.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Because Naru needs the Kyuubi EVERY FRIGGING TIME HE FIGHTS?
> 
> It's better for Naru to control it than risk innocents getting hurt.



Naruto isn't talking about innocents. He stated that he needs to learn to control the Kyuubi's chakra so that he could fight Sasuke. Face it, MS Sasuke > SM Naruto by Naruto's own admission.


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## Time Expired (May 6, 2011)

Chiba said:


> *EDIT*: Ok, I agree with you. He might be slightly more powerful. For the sake of argument I should say  'around the same level'
> 
> @People who agree with OP-
> 
> ...



 /thread


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## jimbob631 (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto isn't talking about innocents. He stated that he needs to learn to control the Kyuubi's chakra so that he could fight Sasuke. Face it, MS Sasuke > SM Naruto by Naruto's own admission.



He said he couldnt beat him and he also said they would both die if they fought.  That sounds like he and Kishimoto thought of them as equals.  Also, the idea that Naruto couldnt beat a dying Sasuke is bogus, Naruto was referring to Sasuke's true power as he felt it and shit when they hit each other with their attacks.


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## Deshi Basara (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke took control of Manda via genjutsu. He could take control of Naruto's summons via genjutsu as well. This would effectively counter Naruto's summons and turn them against him.
> 
> Furthermore Sasuke did not need to maintain eye contact with Manda to keep it under genjutsu. This would mean that Sasuke would be free to continue fighting normally even with a frog under his control.



Excuse me, what now?

Sascake can't genjutsu them all at the same time.And others won't just sit and wait while Sascake continues to genjutsu them one after another.There are plenty of frogs so at least one of them can break the genjtustu'd frog while the others + SM Naru keep Sascake busy.


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## jimbob631 (May 6, 2011)

Saying Sasuke can genjutsu all the frogs is a silly argument, I could easily say Ma and Pa can genjutsu Sasuke and the fight is over.


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## Deshi Basara (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto isn't talking about innocents. He stated that he needs to learn to control the Kyuubi's chakra so that he could fight Sasuke. Face it, MS Sasuke > SM Naruto by Naruto's own admission.




Oh, how cute.. Ignoring parts of my post  

*NARU NEEDS THE KYUUBI EVERY FRIGGING TIME HE FIGHTS!*

Naru knows he will need it anyway and it's better to control it than the other option..


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Excuse me, what now?
> 
> Sascake can't genjutsu them all at the same time.And others won't just sit and wait while Sascake continues to genjutsu them one after another.There are plenty of frogs so at least one of them can break the genjtustu'd frog while the others + SM Naru keep Sascake busy.



Naruto can only summon one frog at a time to my knowledge. So why would Sasuke have all that much trouble keeping up with the summons? Furthermore Naruto needs to sacrifice some of his blood to summon a frog. This alone would limit the number of frogs he can summon. 



畜生道 said:


> Oh, who cute.. Ignoring parts of my post
> 
> *NARU NEEDS THE KYUUBI EVERY FRIGGING TIME HE FIGHTS!*
> 
> Naru knows he we'll needed anyway and it's better to control it than the other option..



Naruto stated that he needs to control the Kyuubi in order to fight Sasuke. Naruto stated that he needed an upgrade before he could fight Sasuke. How can you ignore this?


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 6, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> He said he couldnt beat him and* he also said they would both die if they fought.*  That sounds like he and Kishimoto thought of them as equals.  Also, the idea that Naruto couldnt beat a dying Sasuke is bogus, Naruto was referring to Sasuke's true power as he felt it and shit when they hit each other with their attacks.



Beating someone via tie, still implicate you can beat them. If that is what Naruto meant by that statement then he we have worded it that way.
Kishimoto never implicated they were equals, in fact his actions dictate later that he didn't think he could match sasuke, via wanting to obtain control of the Kyubi to match Sasuke.

You can disagree with the statement, but please do not try to rephrase what has clearly been stated. Naruto declared himself inferior to Sasuke at that particular time, point blank period.


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## jameshawking (May 6, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Beating someone via tie, still implicate you can beat them. If that is what Naruto meant by that statement then he we have worded it that way.
> Kishimoto never implicated they were equals, in fact his actions dictate later that he didn't think he could match sasuke, via wanting to obtain control of the Kyubi to match Sasuke.
> 
> You can disagree with the statement, but please do not try to rephrase what has clearly been stated. Naruto declared himself inferior to Sasuke at that particular time, point blank period.



Converse of your point: if Naruto can force Sasuke into a tie, then he also has a degree of power that Sasuke can't beat outright, either.

Tie, literally, implies that neither can beat the other.  And i include "mutual death" as a tie.


----------



## Sasuke` (May 6, 2011)

Can people stop making threads like this? It's silly. You really think that Kishi is going to make the most anticipated fight of the manga a joke? Sasuke will give Naruto a beatdown.. Sasuke can: Susano'o, Amatarsu, Tsukyomi, Fly (with Hawks), Raiton needles, Chidori Nagashi, Chidori, Kirin, Katons, Has great speed, Good Genjutsu, Good taijutsu, An EMS doujutsu we haven't even seen yet and on top of that He's Sasuke. Now let's look at Naruto: Kage buunishin (out of RM), Rm, Sm, Rasengan, Frs, great speed in Rm and Sm, good taijutsu (great physical strength), bijuu dama and his frogs. Comparing the two right now is useless, you know Sasuke's last EMS jutsu is going to be hax. They are going to be equal... just like everytime they fight.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Converse of your point: if Naruto can force Sasuke into a tie, then he also has a degree of power that Sasuke can't beat outright, either.
> 
> Tie, literally, implies that neither can beat the other.  And i include "mutual death" as a tie.



No, Naruto did not say he could force Sasuke to tie him at that point in time. He said that the next time they fought he would do so. However this had no bearing on their strength at that time. 

Naruto later admitted inferiority twice.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 6, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Converse of your point: if Naruto can force Sasuke into a tie, then he also has a degree of power that Sasuke can't beat outright, either.


(Damn that was quick, just posted this about 20 seconds ago)

Then why not word it that way. I could beat him, but I would die as well would suffice. This explanation does not make sense, it requires more thinking than necessary to make even the slightest bit of sense. 

You know what they say, the simplest explanation is always the right one. 





> Tie, literally, implies that neither can beat the other.  And i include "mutual death" as a tie.


No tie, implicates one is capable of beating but with consequences. Superman was capable of defeating doomsday at the cost of his life. 
Defeat-
 to win victory over


Surviving is not an stipulation in the definition, you are implanting that good sir. Therefore it is artificial, an add on to the definition.


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## Deshi Basara (May 6, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto can only summon one frog at a time to my knowledge. So why would Sasuke have all that much trouble keeping up with the summons? Furthermore Naruto needs to sacrifice some of his blood to summon a frog. This alone would limit the number of frogs he can summon.



I don't see how someone as powerful as Naru won't be able to summon more than one frog at a time.And the other frogs can summon too you know?

So even if Naru can't summon them all in one go, all he needs is Ma and Pa to summon the others.



> Naruto stated that he needs to control the Kyuubi in order to fight Sasuke. Naruto stated that he needed an upgrade before he could fight Sasuke. *How can you ignore this?*



The same way you keep ignoring THE FACT that Naru needs The Kyyubi all the time? Don't you think he realizes this?


----------



## AoshiKun (May 6, 2011)

People are in denial


----------



## jameshawking (May 7, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> (Damn that was quick, just posted this about 20 seconds ago)
> 
> Then why not word it that way. I could beat him, but I would die as well would suffice. This explanation does not make sense, it requires more thinking than necessary to make even the slightest bit of sense.
> 
> ...



Assuming that both people are fighting:

A) to kill the other
and
B) to not die

and both die, both people would have accomplished one goal, but not the other.

And, frankly, how many fights do you go into where you go "hey, I actually want to die this time"?

i can only think of the Itachi fight being a fight where one party didn't want to live afterward.

So, ASSUMING both people are fighting for their lives, and neither lives...neither exactly wins.

is that unreasonable?


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I don't see how someone as powerful as Naru won't be able to summon more than one frog at a time.And the other frogs can summon too you know?
> 
> So even if Naru can't summon them all in one go, all he needs is Ma and Pa to summon the others.



Has he shown the ability to summon Ma and Pa? And what stops Sasuke from taking control of Ma and Pa as soon as they are summoned and having them attack Naruto?



> The same way you keep ignoring THE FACT that Naru needs The Kyyubi all the time? Don't you think he realizes this?



The Kyuubi is a double edged sword for Naruto. He can't control it past a certain point, which means that somebody else has to do it for him. Previously Yamato and Minato did it. 

However without somebody to control the Kyuubi for him Naruto would easily lose and be taken over. From that point on with would be Sasuke vs. Kyuubi. And as we know base sharingan genjutsu can control the Kyuubi.


----------



## Dashido (May 7, 2011)

He really doesn't need to be able to stack up to him physically. He has Susano'o Ametarasu and possible a T/s Jutsu for dodging really fast stuff. 

Also Sasuke has good physical prowess and has demonstrated good smarts and kenjutsu in the series. It just so happens that their are people out their who surpass him in this area...and we had to see him fight them....I think this made him look bad. I see his physical abilities get a decent amount of troll no lie.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

So...whats up in here? Im gonna talk to the OP.

Sasuke is still a highly trained guy bro. But you gotta understand that Kishi has a reason he made Sasuke this strong with his eyes. We all shouldve recognised what Kishi was aiming for and that was to make Sasuke the epitome of what it is to having strong eyes and Naruto to be the epitome of what it is to have a strong body and physical attributes.
Sure, in base Sasuke cant expect to survive against Naruto without the sharingan but hey...like I said, theres a reason Kishi makes him rely on his eyes. Its the same thing with everyone that had ocular powers. Itachi's real powers came from? His eyes. Madara? His eyes. Nagato? His eyes. Its just a trend


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## jimbob631 (May 7, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Beating someone via tie, still implicate you can beat them. If that is what Naruto meant by that statement then he we have worded it that way.
> Kishimoto never implicated they were equals, in fact his actions dictate later that he didn't think he could match sasuke, via wanting to obtain control of the Kyubi to match Sasuke.
> 
> You can disagree with the statement, but please do not try to rephrase what has clearly been stated. Naruto declared himself inferior to Sasuke at that particular time, point blank period.



Naruto said they would both die if they fought and it makes sense with the comment i can't beat him.  Your just trying to take that comment to mean Sasuke is superior.  Here is what we know, Zetsu said Naruto was stronger than Sasuke after he had his MS genjutsu and amaterasu.  

Then he goes and fights Raikage and Danzo and gains full control over Susano and Naruto says they would both die if they fight.  Seems to me Sasuke caught up to Naruto by gaining Susano and at that point there equal.  There would be no other reason Naruto would say they would both die.  I can easily say Sasuke went and asked for Itachi's eyes so he could beat Naruto to, its really clear imo that there meant to be equals and they will be equal when they fight.  Your just so much of a Sasuke fan you can't admit that.


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## T-Bag (May 7, 2011)

you're gona be surprised when sasuke will have the upper hand through out most the fight.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> So...whats up in here? Im gonna talk to the OP.
> 
> Sasuke is still a highly trained guy bro. But you gotta understand that Kishi has a reason he made Sasuke this strong with his eyes. We all shouldve recognised what Kishi was aiming for and that was to make Sasuke the epitome of what it is to having strong eyes and Naruto to be the epitome of what it is to have a strong body and physical attributes.
> Sure, in base Sasuke cant expect to survive against Naruto without the sharingan but hey...like I said, theres a reason Kishi makes him rely on his eyes. Its the same thing with everyone that had ocular powers. Itachi's real powers came from? His eyes. Madara? His eyes. Nagato? His eyes. Its just a trend



Call him baby-chan he like it better.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 7, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Assuming that both people are fighting:
> 
> A) to kill the other
> and
> ...


But sense when does goals, come into play with victory?





> And, frankly, how many fights do you go into where you go "hey, I actually want to die this time"?


This has nothing to do with the discussion, we are discussing does defeat include dieing. As I pointed out in the dictionary, the condition for victory does not matter.





> i can only think of the Itachi fight being a fight where one party didn't want to live afterward.
> 
> So, ASSUMING both people are fighting for their lives, and neither lives...neither exactly wins.


They win, as the condition for victory are met. As I pointed out the word does not indicate one needs to be alive, only that they were able to defeat an opponent. 

You are adding your own condition to the word, you cannot do that. 



> is that unreasonable?


It is unreasonable, as the word DEFEAT does not include the condition of being alive. That is something you added, to the definition. Victory in death, is still a victory. As I mentioned before, Superman was able to defeat doomsday, but it cost him his life. The conditions for victory in a battle to the death, only includes being able to kill the opponent.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Has he shown the ability to summon Ma and Pa?



lol, what?What are you trying to say?That Naru may not have the ability to summon them?

ALL HE NEEDS IS A CONTRACT WITH THEM.



> And what stops Sasuke from taking control of Ma and Pa as soon as they are summoned and having them attack Naruto?



So we are just gonna assume that when Naru summons them , they will be close enough to Sascake for them to be put under genjutsu?

And both of them at the same time?Seriously?And i guess Naru will just sit tight while Sascake is open like that?Cool 



> *The Kyuubi is a double edged sword for Naruto.* He can't control it past a certain point, which means that somebody else has to do it for him. Previously Yamato and Minato did it.
> 
> *However without somebody to control the Kyuubi for him Naruto would easily lose and be taken over.*



And that's exactly why Naru needs to control it.



> And as we know base sharingan genjutsu can control the Kyuubi.



That's why Minato and Jiraiya said that Tobi was the only one who could have done it?And only for a *short time* non the less.


----------



## jameshawking (May 7, 2011)

Victory requires the achievement of your goals.  That's...frankly...what victory is.  Defeat is not achieving those goals you wanted, of failing to achieve your goals.

So, if one of your goals is "stay alive", which is commonplace in Naruto fights, and that goal cannot be achieved because someone stabed you in the neck with a kunai, you have failed to achieve your goals, and have been defeated.

You saying "that's not the literal definition" is true.  It, however, is entirely useless, since we're discussing victory and defeat in a specific context, with contextual implications.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 7, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Naruto said they would both die if they fought and it makes sense with the comment i can't beat him.  Your just trying to take that comment to mean Sasuke is superior.  Here is what we know, Zetsu said Naruto was stronger than Sasuke after he had his MS genjutsu and amaterasu.


Read my former post, a double KO does not implicate you did not defeat them. Defeat doesn't require you to be alive, that is a definition you added.

As I stated before this argument is a foolish one, as it requires too much thinking. Naruto stated he couldn't defeat Sasuke at his current level, and then goes off to learn to master the control of the Kyubi. His later action supports his initial statement.





> Then he goes and fights Raikage and Danzo and gains full control over Susano and Naruto says they would both die if they fight.  Seems to me Sasuke caught up to Naruto by gaining Susano and at that point there equal.  There would be no other reason Naruto would say they would both die.  I can easily say Sasuke went and asked for Itachi's eyes so he could beat Naruto to, its really clear imo that there meant to be equals and they will be equal when they fight.  Your just so much of a Sasuke fan you can't admit that.


No he surpassed Naruto with MS, according to Naruto.
This is manga cannon, and no amount of spinning can change was was stated. Rather you choose to believe it or not is your prerogative, however do not try to spin a statement that is as clear as day. 

He stated when they fight they will both die, that doesn't implicate they were going to fight then and there. Thus his words does not contradict the statement issued to neji. His actions indicate he did not believe he was strong enough to defeat Sasuke with his current power. 

Sasuke went to ask for Itachi's eyes is entirely different. Sasuke did not have access to the MS, or even basic sharingan without the operation. He also stated "He wanted to crush Naruto with all his power." Naruto still had access to SM, good sir.

It is clear MANGA CANNON, that Naruto stated he was inferior to MS Sasuke. Your opinion doesn't matter in the face of Manga cannon now does it.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> lol, what?What are you trying to say?That Naru may not have the ability to summon them?
> 
> ALL HE NEEDS IS A CONTRACT WITH THEM.



Really now? So than Naruto must have been truly retarded to keep summoning tadpoles if all he needed was the contract to summon Ma and Pa. If the contract was all there was to it than why did Naruto spend so much time training?



> So we are just gonna assume that when Naru summons them , they will be close enough to Sascake for them to be put under genjutsu?
> 
> And both of them at the same time?Seriously?And i guess Naru will just sit tight while Sascake is open like that?Cool



We are going to assume no such thing. And we are going to assume that since Sasuke can put somebody under genjutsu from approximately 50 meters away that the frogs are going to be close enough. 

Naruto is going to be getting his ass handed to him by Ma, Pa, and Sasuke. He will have no time to sit on his ass. 



> That's why Minato and Jiraiya said that Tobi was the only one who could have done it?And only for a *short time* non the less.



No, Tobi and Madara are the only ones who could summon the Kyuubi. Nothing was ever said about them being the only ones to be able to control the Kyuubi.


----------



## Raiden (May 7, 2011)

An equally good as good question being how in the hell is Naruto going to survive Amaratsu, Susano-o, and strong genjutsu?

Sasuke's Eternal Mangeko Sharingan does nothing for his chakra capacity. Across the board, however, it's extremely helpful. He lasts longer with less strain. That means instead of clucthing his eye in pain, Sasuke can focus on effectively taking out his opponent. In other words, less pain=less strain=more strategic thinking.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Call him baby-chan he like it better.



Lolz? Baby-chan? Ha.


----------



## jameshawking (May 7, 2011)

Raiden said:


> An equally good as good question being how in the hell is Naruto going to survive Amaratsu, Susano-o, and strong genjutsu?
> 
> Sasuke's Eternal Mangeko Sharingan does nothing for his chakra capacity. Across the board, however, it's extremely helpful. He lasts longer with less strain. That means instead of clucthing his eye in pain, Sasuke can focus on effectively taking out his opponent. In other words, less pain=less strain=more strategic thinking.



Quick note:

Naruto's counter to Genjutsu is what I said it would be years ago.  And it also breaks Tsukiyomi like a little bitch.


----------



## Mio Akiyama (May 7, 2011)

AoshiKun said:


> People are in denial



^ This.

Also this is is such a silly thing to debate.
It's obvious Kishi will make both characters complete god tier on the same level by the time of their final fight. It wouldn't be as interesting if one had the upper hand. 

And Naruto is currently beneath Sasuke on a power scale at that.
Although Naruto will have some power ups, both most likely will up until they are standing face to face to do the fight. At that time they will be equals ~


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

Raiden said:


> An equally good as good question being how in the hell is Naruto going to survive Amaratsu, Susano-o, and strong genjutsu?
> 
> .



Rikudo mode my brother man


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 7, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Victory requires the achievement of your goals.  That's...frankly...what victory is.  Defeat is not achieving those goals you wanted, of failing to achieve your goals.


No. Victory in a battle to the death, already has a goal. The goal is to make sure your opponent is no longer breathing at the end of the battle.

There goal is entirely something different. Naruto's goal is to save Sasuke; Sasuke's goal is the destruction of Konoha.

What they want to achieve, there goal, is much more than a simple battle.





> So, if one of your goals is "stay alive", which is commonplace in Naruto fights, and that goal cannot be achieved because someone stabed you in the neck with a kunai, you have failed to achieve your goals, and have been defeated.


There goal is much more than just winning a battle, however; We are limiting the conditions of victory, to the the standard battle to the death rules. 

Under these conditions victory of defeat is making sure, your opponent is no longer living.

As I said before, it would have just been easier to state he couldn't defeat Sasuke, without dieing. 






> You saying "that's not the literal definition" is true.  It, however, is entirely useless, since we're discussing victory and defeat in a specific context, with contextual implications.


The context is the exact same as the definition. We are making the assumption that the conditions for victory is entirely limited to just killing the other individual.


----------



## jimbob631 (May 7, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Read my former post, a double KO does not implicate you did not defeat them. Defeat doesn't require you to be alive, that is a definition you added.



From dictionary.com: Defeat-Win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest; overcome or beat.

How in the world is dying considered winning a victory over someone?  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> As I stated before this argument is a foolish one, as it requires too much thinking. Naruto stated he couldn't defeat Sasuke at his current level, and then goes off to learn to master the control of the Kyubi. His later action supports his initial statement.



Right because he realized if they fought at full strength they would both die.   




IpHr0z3nI said:


> No he surpassed Naruto with MS, according to Naruto.  This is manga cannon, and no amount of spinning can change was was stated. Rather you choose to believe it or not is your prerogative, however do not try to spin a statement that is as clear as day.



Aight first off I think its canon not cannon.  Zetsu said Naruto was better than Sasuke when Sasuke already had access to two out of three of his MS techniques.  He gained one more and improved his control of amaterasu and then they became equal.   



IpHr0z3nI said:


> He stated when they fight they will both die, that doesn't implicate they were going to fight then and there. Thus his words does not contradict the statement issued to neji. His actions indicate he did not believe he was strong enough to defeat Sasuke with his current power.



Same shit as before, I agree he didn't mean they would fight then in there, but he was talking about if they were both at full strength they would kill each other.  There's no way he could know if they would kill each other after they gained more power.  Its likely he felt how strong Sasuke was when they did there little clash and thats how he deduced his opinion.  



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sasuke went to ask for Itachi's eyes is entirely different. Sasuke did not have access to the MS, or even basic sharingan without the operation. He also stated "He wanted to crush Naruto with all his power." Naruto still had access to SM, good sir.



Yeah your right he was out of MS, but they way he said it again implied they were equal and that he wanted to increase his strength so he could be stronger than Naruto.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Really now? So than Naruto must have been truly retarded to keep summoning tadpoles if all he needed was the contract to summon Ma and Pa. If the contract was all there was to it than why did Naruto spend so much time training?



ORLY? At the time Naru couldn't control his chakra very well because of the Kyuubi.

it looks like a mass made from Zetsu.


That's the reason he kept on screwing up.



> We are going to assume no such thing. And we are going to assume that since Sasuke can put somebody under genjutsu from approximately 50 meters away that the frogs are going to be close enough.
> 
> Naruto is going to be getting his ass handed to him by Ma, Pa, and Sasuke. He will have no time to sit on his ass.



If you wanna troll, fine.But don't make it so obvious  

Naru will just stand there while Sascake is open when he tries to put Ma or Pa under genjutsu?Right.. And someone as arrogant as Sascake will automatically presume that frogs like Ma and Pa are a threat?And he will stop focusing on Naru and try to genjutsu them instantly?Right..






> No, Tobi and Madara are the only ones who could summon the Kyuubi. Nothing was ever said about them being the only ones to be able to control the Kyuubi.



Fine.I doubt however that Sascake is strong enough to control the full Kyuubi.And even if he is, eventually the genjutsu will end and what then?Sascake can't keep it tamed forever  I hope you realize that.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Really now? So than Naruto must have been truly retarded to keep summoning tadpoles if all he needed was the contract to summon Ma and Pa. If the contract was all there was to it than why did Naruto spend so much time training?
> 
> 
> 
> .



Well...
The fact he could summon Gamabunta with his base chakra means that with Kyuubi's chakra he should be able to summon the entire Mount Myoboku, lol.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Naru will just stand there while Sascake is open when he tries to put Ma or Pa under genjutsu?Right.. And someone as arrogant as Sascake will automatically presume that frogs like Ma and Pa are a treat?And he will stop focusing on Naru and try to genjutsu them instantly?Right..



And Sasuke would just stand there while Naruto summons the frogs? Fuck no he is going shunshin and chop Naruto's head off. 



> Fine.I doubt however that Sascake is strong enough to control the full Kyuubi.And even if he is, eventually the genjutsu will end and what then?Sascake can't keep him tamed forever  I hope you realize that.



Who cares what happens then? If the Kyuubi breaks the seal Naruto dies and Sasuke wins.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Well...
> The fact he could summon Gamabunta with his base chakra means that with Kyuubi's chakra he should be able to summon the entire Mount Myoboku, lol.



No, actually he needed the Kyuubi's chakra to summon Gamabunta. That was the whole point of throwing him off a cliff for him to use Kyuubi's chakra.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, actually he needed the Kyuubi's chakra to summon Gamabunta. That was the whole point of throwing him off a cliff for him to use Kyuubi's chakra.



Gaara fight anyone?


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Gaara fight anyone?



He was using the Kyuubi's chakra there too.


----------



## silenceofthelambs (May 7, 2011)

**


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> He was using the Kyuubi's chakra there too.



 It's not a crime to just accept you're wrong sometimes ya know. It wont kill you. He did not use Kyuubi's chakra until he needed to smash Gaara's head.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> And Sasuke would just stand there while Naruto summons the frogs? Fuck no he is going shunshin and chop Naruto's head off.





> If you wanna troll, fine.But don't make it so obvious





> Who cares what happens then? If the Kyuubi breaks the seal Naruto dies and Sasuke wins.



Wait.. i have trouble understanding the timeline.. Are we discussing SM or RM vs Sascake?SM Naru has Minato and Kushina to save his ass from The Kyuubi.RM will use The Fox's power without unleashing the Kyuubi itself


----------



## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> It's not a crime to just accept you're wrong sometimes ya know. It wont kill you. He did not use Kyuubi's chakra until he needed to smash Gaara's head.



he summoned the giant toad with it to


----------



## WhiteRider40 (May 7, 2011)

Orxon said:


> At the start of Part 1, Sasuke was obviously considered superior to Naruto, vastly so, in physical combat. He was faster, smarter and a damn sight more talented.



Through use of the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.  From what we've seen, it does indeed seem that his physical capabilities are quit limited when compared to most elite Ninja, let alone compared to Jinchuuriki.  But clearly his quick development of his magekyou has allowed him to accomplish feats such as taking out Danzou, a Hokage level combatant.  Surely the EMS will give Sasuke the ability to combat Naruto's crazy-go-nuts Kyuubi powers (read: really big rasengans).


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 7, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> From dictionary.com: Defeat-Win a victory over (someone) in a battle or other contest; overcome or beat.


Exactly, the condition of the opponent is not mentioned or implied.



> How in the world is dying considered winning a victory over someone?


You are ignoring the definition you just posted.

To DEFEAT SOMEONE does not implicate one has to remain alive after the matter. Defeating someone, only requires them to not be breathing(if it is to the death) after everything is said and done.







> Right because he realized if they fought at full strength they would both die.


Again you are adding things not supported by the manga, to support your own argument. You cannot do this. 

Further more you are wrong, as full strength doesn't require an additional power up.    






> Aight first off I think its canon not cannon.  Zetsu said Naruto was better than Sasuke when Sasuke already had access to two out of three of his MS techniques.  He gained one more and improved his control of amaterasu and then they became equal.


And Naruto stated he stated he thought Sasuke was better when the last met. 

And Sasuke only had access to 1/3 of his MS jutsu. He doesn't have Tsukuyomi. His second MS jutsu is Kasugutchi, something he didn't have until his fight with the Kage's along with Susano.

Not to mention the affects Susano had on his chakara, and Sasuke and one can conclude Sasuke received a huge power up sense then.


Lastly I sense the lack of double standards in you assumption. You are willing to accept Zetsu, assumption of Naruto PROBABLY  being stronger, but disregard Naruto's statement stating the opposite. 

Sasuke also gained his FINAL SUSANO an additional power up, before going blind. 

Naruto was clearly outmatched as that point, thus is why he didn't believe SM would be enough, thus his decision to learn to master the Kyubi.  





> Same shit as before, I agree he didn't mean they would fight then in there, but he was talking about if they were both at full strength they would kill each other.  There's no way he could know if they would kill each other after they gained more power.  Its likely he felt how strong Sasuke was when they did there little clash and thats how he deduced his opinion.


Full strength doesn't include the addition of a power up. Before you come up with fallacy filled reasons, please make sure to check it is not contradicted by the manga.  





> Yeah your right he was out of MS, but they way he said it again implied they were equal and that he wanted to increase his strength so he could be stronger than Naruto.



No the way he said it doesn't implicate equality. "I will use everything I have to CRUSH NARUTO."

This does not implicate equality good sir. Crush can be interpreted as domination. Sasuke disagreed with Naruto's assumption that they both will died, and didn't accept him as an equal as Naruto also STATED.

So how do you interpret what is clearly contradicted by the manga?


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> It's not a crime to just accept you're wrong sometimes ya know. It wont kill you. He did not use Kyuubi's chakra until he needed to smash Gaara's head.



it looks like a mass made from Zetsu.
See how Naruto had the Kyuubi's eye? That combined with the fact that Naruto didn't have the chakra capacity to summon Gamabunta on his own is the reason why I say the Kyuubi was involved.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Wait.. i have trouble understanding the timeline.. Are we discussing SM or RM vs Sascake?SM Naru has Minato and Kushina to save his ass from The Kyuubi.RM will use The Fox's power without unleashing the Kyuubi itself



We are talking about SM Naruto after the Pain fight versus Sasuke with the three tamoe sharingan after the Pain fight as well. And no, Naruto's parents and Itachi cannot step in to save little Naruto from big and mean Sasuke.


----------



## Snowman Sharingan (May 7, 2011)

you cant honestly expect Kishimoto to allow a major gap in their power. whatever powerup one gets, the other gets one just as good.


----------



## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

Snowman Sharingan said:


> you cant honestly expect Kishimoto to allow a major gap in their power. whatever powerup one gets, the other gets one just as good.



No  that's too easy despite it being painfully obvious...


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 7, 2011)

Snowman Sharingan said:


> you cant honestly expect Kishimoto to allow a major gap in their power. whatever powerup one gets, the other gets one just as good.



Thus is the case when they were strictly rivals. Sasuke has become a villain he can only be >= Naruto, by the villain code.

The later he is introduced the more probable he will be greater.


----------



## Snowman Sharingan (May 7, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Thus is the case when they were strictly rivals. Sasuke has become a villain he can only be >= Naruto, by the villain code.
> 
> The later he is introduced the more probable he will be greater.



haha what? sorry i dont understand.



Soul Assassin said:


> No  that's too easy despite it being painfully obvious...



haha i know right?

it's been that way from the beginning. chidori/rasengan, snakes/toads, MS/SM, and now EMS/RM. and they've been pretty much even the whole time. we shouldn't honestly expect anything different


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> We are talking about SM Naruto after the Pain fight versus Sasuke with the three tamoe sharingan after the Pain fight as well. And no, Naruto's parents and Itachi cannot step in to save little Naruto from big and mean Sasuke.



Wait, no MS?

Naru won't even need to unleash the Kyuubi.Frogs is all he needs.

And please don't reply with "lol Sascake shunshins Naru's head off before he gets the chance to summon" because i will just ignore you


----------



## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Thus is the case when they were strictly rivals. Sasuke has become a villain he can only be >= Naruto, by the villain code.
> 
> The later he is introduced the more probable he will be greater.



Sasuke's actions have become villainous, but it's highly likely that he'll be redeemed or lobotomized via TnJ. If there is an asymmetry things will balance out.



Snowman Sharingan said:


> haha i know right?
> 
> it's been that way from the beginning. chidori/rasengan, snakes/toads, MS/SM, and now EMS/RM. and they've been pretty much even the whole time. we shouldn't honestly expect anything different



 too easy.


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> it looks like a mass made from Zetsu.
> See how Naruto had the Kyuubi's eye? That combined with the fact that Naruto didn't have the chakra capacity to summon Gamabunta on his own is the reason why I say the Kyuubi was involved.



Naruto back then needed to contact Kyuubi for his chakra. He did not do that until here:
it looks like a mass made from Zetsu.
But wtf is the point of this? My point is RM gives him enough chakra to summon Jesus and his 12 disciples.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Wait, no MS?
> 
> Naru won't even need to unleash the Kyuubi.Frogs is all he needs.
> 
> And please don't reply with "lol Sascake shunshins Naru's head off before he gets the chance to summon" because i will just ignore you



No, Sasuke can just use genjutsu to turn the frogs against Naruto. Although while we are on the topic of shunshin... How would Naruto be able to fight against it?


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Naruto back then needed to contact Kyuubi for his chakra. He did not do that until here:
> it looks like a mass made from Zetsu.
> But wtf is the point of this? My point is RM gives him enough chakra to summon Jesus and his 12 disciples.



Naruto's pupil turned from a dot into a slit. This means that Naruto was using the Kyuubi's chakra. Why don't you just admit you're wrong?


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## Csdabest (May 7, 2011)

Chances are Sasuke will be stronger than Naruto and will lose to PIS. Or he will fight multiple people and then have to take on Naruto.

Me myself. I think he is getting  a madara spacetime jutsu only it will be as fast as Hirashin. No warping. And he will get Kamui. And Madara's phase jutsu. Also. It wont take much for Sasuke to get a physical boost. If he can merge with susano-o to increase his speed and strength he will be on the level of a jinchuuriki in physical boost.Sasuke arsenal is already beast. And I also think Sasuke will get a new power beyond EMS. I think he will get.....Rinne Mangeko.The evolution of Sharinnegan just because the prophecy speaks of him


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## WhiteRider40 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, Sasuke can just use genjutsu to turn the frogs against Naruto. Although while we are on the topic of shunshin... How would Naruto be able to fight against it?



That's the speed-walk-teleport jutsu dealio, yes?  I'm sure Kyuubi-fied Naruto is much faster than that anyway.


----------



## mehthecat (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, Sasuke can just use genjutsu to turn the frogs against Naruto. Although while we are on the topic of shunshin... How would Naruto be able to fight against it?



And where's the proof in this?


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

mehthecat said:


> And where's the proof in this?



he used it on manda


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## mehthecat (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> he used it on manda



and a snake=frog?


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## Csdabest (May 7, 2011)

Also Sasuke physical abilties are above that of you elite shinobi. Look who he has fought. Itachi=speed demon. Bee=speed demon, Ei= Speed demon. Danzo was immortal.

The people he has fought has either been faster or immortal  so using speed or showcasing speed doesnt really matter. If Sasuke was fast. He would not have been able to oppose A shroud level 1. Ei would have jusr countered. Showing that Sasuke still has the speed demon title


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 7, 2011)

Snowman Sharingan said:


> haha what? sorry i dont understand.


Then I question your reading comprehension, as what I stated was pretty clear.


----------



## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Then I question your reading comprehension, as what I stated was pretty clear.



 it's on now...


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, Sasuke can just use genjutsu to turn the frogs against Naruto.



We've been over this.Other frogs can break the genjutsu'd frog.



> Although while we are on the topic of shunshin... How would Naruto be able to fight against it?



You're seriously asking for ignore aren't you?

Kage Bunshin no jutsu, frogs etc etc 

Zetsu stated that SM Naru > *MS* Sascake (pre Susano) that includes his shunshin, does it not?

If you insist on trolling, how can Sascake counter Frog Katas when he doesn't even know it's coming?He dodges Naru's punch and gets pwned immediately :ho


----------



## WhiteRider40 (May 7, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Also Sasuke physical abilties are above that of you elite shinobi. Look who he has fought. Itachi=speed demon. Bee=speed demon, Ei= Speed demon. Danzo was immortal.
> 
> The people he has fought has either been faster or immortal  so using speed or showcasing speed doesnt really matter. If Sasuke was fast. He would not have been able to oppose A shroud level 1. Ei would have jusr countered. Showing that Sasuke still has the speed demon title



He's fast and strong, but he's not the fastest nor the strongest. He was saved by Mangekyou in the last three cases because his physical stats/jutsu array wasn't up to snuff (though he was getting ganked while fighting vs Raikage).  The Itachi fight is iffy because Itachi may have thrown it, and was bleeding out of most of his orifices for the duration of the fight.


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> We've been over this.Other frogs can break the genjutsu'd frog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



pain seemed to get the hang of dodgeing them after awhile...remember the in air speed taijustu they did agast eachother?


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## Hokage (May 7, 2011)

Lets see what Sasuke's new powers will be first and then decide.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> pain seemed to get the hang of dodgeing them after awhile...remember the in air speed taijustu they did agast eachother?



Funny because Naru only used it *once.*

And no i don't remember.What are you talking about?


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> We've been over this.Other frogs can break the genjutsu'd frog.



Sasuke can genjutsu the other frogs as well. 



> Zetsu stated that SM Naru > *MS* Sascake (pre Susano) that includes his shunshin, does it not?



Zetsu never made such a statement. Zetsu stated that Naruto *might* be stronger than Sasuke. However this statement would have to be judged based on base Sasuke's abilities and SM Naruto's + Minato's abilities, since Zetsu had not seen Sasuke fight with MS while on the other hand Zetsu had witnessed Naruto demonstrate far more control over the fox than he actually had. And I don't think Zetsu had see Sasuke use shunshin at that point so no it wouldn't include Sasuke's shunshin.


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## Csdabest (May 7, 2011)

WhiteRider40 said:


> He's fast and strong, but he's not the fastest nor the strongest. He was saved by Mangekyou in the last three cases because his physical stats/jutsu array wasn't up to snuff (though he was getting ganked while fighting vs Raikage).  The Itachi fight is iffy because Itachi may have thrown it, and was bleeding out of most of his orifices for the duration of the fight.



Thats the Itachi and Raikage were both faster Than Sasuke. CS2 Sasuke was probably on Par with Raikage and ITachi in speed. cuz of the boost.  Against Bee speed was not the answer. Sasuke is just balanced high in everything basic. Without Sharingan he would be Jounin to elite jounin level. Sasuke just has sharingan to boost everything.

Sasuke said he felt Itachi power making him stronger so who knows what could happen. Madara at such an old age has shown some decent strength feats. Blocking suigetsu strike with one hand. So who knows. Maybe the merger of EMS aasuke and itachi chakra. willboost his stats or maybe a new susanoo0 power will be unlocked


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## Csdabest (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke can genjutsu the other frogs as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Zetsu never made such a statement. Zetsu stated that Naruto *might* be stronger than Sasuke. However this statement would have to be judged based on base Sasuke's abilities and SM Naruto's + Minato's abilities, since Zetsu had not seen Sasuke fight with MS while on the other hand Zetsu had witnessed Naruto demonstrate far more control over the fox than he actually had. And I don't think Zetsu had see Sasuke use shunshin at that point so no it wouldn't include Sasuke's shunshin.



Honestly. The only thing Zetsu had to judge by was Hebi Sasuke. Or Sasuke vs Killer Bee. And as we know that sasuke was very gimped and inexperiened with his new toy.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Funny because Naru only used it *once.*
> 
> And no i don't remember.What are you talking about?



thiers was a part kinda dbz like ..when both deva path and sm naruto were punching and kicking eachother in highspeed....while in the air..infact after he used that extension tech on one of the paths ..its almost like he forgot he had it lol.


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto's pupil turned from a dot into a slit. This means that Naruto was using the Kyuubi's chakra. Why don't you just admit you're wrong?



The eyes. You're right 

My points still stand regardless doesnt it?

*Point one* - He can summon Gama with his own chakra, especially Sage chakra.
*Point two* - RM grants him enough chakra to summon...whoever you wanna name.

And you have to be incredibly unreasonable if you think Naruto cant summon Gama on his own if Jiraiya could. My lord.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke can genjutsu the other frogs as well.



Not without getting WTFpwned by Naru while he tries it 



> Zetsu never made such a statement. Zetsu stated that Naruto *might* be stronger than Sasuke. However this statement would have to be judged based on base Sasuke's abilities and SM Naruto's + Minato's abilities, since Zetsu had not seen Sasuke fight with MS while on the other hand Zetsu had witnessed Naruto demonstrate far more control over the fox than he actually had. *And I don't think Zetsu had see Sasuke use shunshin at that point so no it wouldn't include Sasuke's shunshin.*



Oh, you don't *think*.Good for you but that means nothing 

Anyway way to write so much on something so irrelevant.As i said Naru has KB and frogs to deal with Sascake's "amazing" shunshin


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> thiers was a part kinda dbz like ..when both deva path and sm naruto were punching and kicking eachother in highspeed....while in the air..infact after he used that extension tech on one of the paths ..its almost like he forgot he had it lol.



I..   don't think that happened in the manga.You might be talking about anime filler.Don't use the anime in a *manga* arguments.In the anime Pein has sonic levels of speed and *literally* gets nailed in to the ground.


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## dark messiah verdandi (May 7, 2011)

*EVERYONE TAKE NOTE*


Hokage said:


> Lets see what Sasuke's new powers will be first and then decide.



I agree wholeheartedly. I think too many are getting wrapped up in naruto's bijuu chakra mode to see clearly. It isn't any better than his KN1 jinchuuriki tailed form. It is actually worse.

Recall just how much of a boost that it used to give naruto, and look at the difference it and bijuu chakra mode has.

Now, remember that sasuke beat KN1 Naruto in part 1. Sure, naruto's skill has gotten sharper, and his focus has greatly improved, but not so much as to make a real difference.

Meanwhile, sasuke mastered shunshin, got MS powers, and evolved the powers he had before exponentially. 

Naruto's largest growth has not been in absorbing kyuubi's chakra, since it has made him less powerful in the long run. It has been in mastering sage mode. THAT is his strongest benefit, and if that can't beat sasuke in MS, then he is going to be something else with his new doujutsu.

The biggest problem is that sasuke's MS jutsu are now pain free, AND he has a new doujutsu waiting in the wings. And that is just him sitting down and not training. He is a stickler for preparing himself against the odds, so learning new jutsu, or finding a way to enhance his chakra is potato chips for him.


As of now, the new doujutsu is probably the Rin'negan, since it awakened in madara, and he hasn't shown any traces of having another jutsu, and if sasuke has a rin'negan now, his jutsu are going to be RIDICULOUSLY strong. And he will be able to use any jutsu easily.

So, how can naruto possibly compare to sasuke?


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> *EVERYONE TAKE NOTE*
> 
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly. I think too many are getting wrapped up in naruto's bijuu chakra mode to see clearly. It isn't any better than his KN1 jinchuuriki tailed form. It is actually worse.
> ...



You are kiding right ?  Naruto now has Kyuubi's power compressed into human form, his speed,strength and destructive powers are unmatched. 40% of Kyuubi's chakra was enough to cause massive shockwaves, nearly 100% of Kyuubi's chakra compressed in a human form is overkill for Sauce.
RM Naruto has enough power to compress an energy construct like the Bijuu dama which has the power to level whole mountains. Unless Sasuke shows that he move faster then Raikage and push a huge energy blast i dont see him being on Naruto's level,not untill Madara gives him the power of the Bijuus sealed in GM like he planned to.
Besides Naruto's potential is nearly unlimited now, he still has Minato's "That jutsu" to learn and possibly Uzumaki sealing jutsus, Sauce is gonna need massive power boost to compete


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> You are kiding right ?  Naruto now has Kyuubi's power compressed into human form, his speed,strength and destructive powers are unmatched. 40% of Kyuubi's chakra was enough to cause massive shockwaves, nearly 100% of Kyuubi's chakra compressed in a human form is overkill for Sauce.


The problem is 100% is overkill for naruto as well.

Don't forget that kyuubi eats naruto's chakra while in bijuu chakra mode, and using more of it's chakra hastens the process.

Also, Susano'o significantly increases sasuke's defences with a semi-physical and practically weightless shield. Not to mention activation is thought based.




> RM Naruto has enough power to compress an energy construct like the Bijuu dama which has the power to level whole mountains. Unless Sasuke shows that he move faster then Raikage and push a huge energy blast i dont see him being on Naruto's level,not untill Madara gives him the power of the Bijuus sealed in GM like he planned to.


Naruto Can't use Bijuu dama yet, as it is retardedly heavy, breaks the ground beneath his feet, and roasts his hands. I suspect it is like the FRS in the beginning, too dangerous to use right now, but will be absolutely awesome once he tames kyuubi.

 sasuke needs not move faster than raikage. He is fighting naruto, not raikage, and naruto lacks raikage's precision, reflexes, and chakra control. they are NOT on the same level.

Let's not forget as well that sasuke's vision will be at 100%, It won't falter, and he has perfect eyesight with sharingan prediction and jutsu decoding. He is going to know what will hit before it actually does, and even if he can't get out of the way, susano'o will soak QUITE a bit.



> Besides Naruto's potential is nearly unlimited now, he still has Minato's "That jutsu" to learn and possibly Uzumaki sealing jutsus, Sauce is gonna need massive power boost to compete


I was under the assumption that "that jutsu" was taming the kyuubi.
Also, as the last uzumaki, there is no-one to actually teach him uzumaki seaking jutsu.

So, why laugh?


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> The problem is 100% is overkill for naruto as well.
> 
> Don't forget that kyuubi eats naruto's chakra while in bijuu chakra mode, and using more of it's chakra hastens the process.
> 
> ...



I gues you forgot one of the most important details that Susanoo will still eat away Sasuke's 'life force energy' and chakra like crazy. The EMS may remove the blindness drawback from using the MS jutsus and boost spiritual energy but it will do jack shit in the physical energy/life force department. 
For what good is Susanoo when Sasuke will keep it up for a couple of moments ? 
As for "That jutsu", it was hinted a while ago by Gerotora and Jiraiya that Naruto must first gain control over Kyuubi's chakra, then he can master "That jutsu" which is meant for Madara. Naruto not learning Uzumaki sealing jutsus would be like Sasuke not having Katons which are his clans trademark jutsus, not gonna happen


----------



## jameshawking (May 7, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> I was under the assumption that "that jutsu" was taming the kyuubi.
> Also, as the last uzumaki, there is no-one to actually teach him uzumaki seaking jutsu.
> 
> So, why laugh?



Fyi, apparently Tsunade is an uzumaki


----------



## dark messiah verdandi (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> I gues you forgot one of the most important details that Susanoo will still eat away Sasuke's 'life force energy' and chakra like crazy.


Well, he kept it on for like 10 minutes while fighting danzo.
Now that he has EMS, it is painless to use it in short bursts whenever he needs it.

I feel like that is the real boon. Sasuke has had a track record of taking dangerous jutsu, and retooling them into efficient, smaller adaptations to increase speed and economy. Chidori,CS2, Susano'o, Amaterasu, Ect.

Now that he can use it without hurting himself, he can play around with it, shaping it to his imagination. I wouldn't be suprised if he condensed Susano'o to human size. Not to say it will happen, though.




> The EMS may remove the blindness drawback from using the MS jutsus and boost spiritual energy but it will do jack shit in the physical energy/life force department.
> For what good is Susanoo when Sasuke will keep it up for a couple of moments ?


As said, he has been using a smaller form recently, And he has used it for ten minutes against danzou.

Also, Susano'o is primarily spiritual. Most MS jutsu are. Very few actually have to do with physical energy.



> As for "That jutsu", it was hinted a while ago by Gerotora and Jiraiya that Naruto must first gain control over Kyuubi's chakra, then he can master "That jutsu" which is meant for Madara. Naruto not learning Uzumaki sealing jutsus would be like Sasuke not having Katons which are his clans trademark jutsus, not gonna happen


Perhaps it was the bijuu rasengan ?
It just seems like it was taming the kyuubi, since he DID need control over kyuubi's chakra first. Becoming a perfect jinchuuriki is about the strongest boon one could have, and they would first need to have control of their seal, which naruto got, and pull the bijuu's chakra away from it and control it, which he did.

Finally, Sasuke was taught his goukyaku by his father.
Naruto's parents are dead, R.I.P.



jameshawking said:


> Fyi, apparently Tsunade is an uzumaki


Forgot about that.
If she has the jutsu, I would give that to you, but she was not suprised by hearing the uzumaki name. If naruto wants to learn sealing jutsu, he will need to first express the desire, which is not there.

They aren't really his style, since they are really... Technical.
Lots of writing and jutsu physics go into sealing. That is why most who use it are considered smart. It is like mixing formulas and legal documents all in one.
Really heady shit, and naruto is not heady.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

dark messiah verdandi said:


> Well, he kept it on for like 10 minutes while fighting danzo.
> Now that he has EMS, it is painless to use it in short bursts whenever he needs it.
> 
> I feel like that is the real boon. Sasuke has had a track record of taking dangerous jutsu, and retooling them into efficient, smaller adaptations to increase speed and economy. Chidori,CS2, Susano'o, Amaterasu, Ect.
> ...



Susanoo isnt spiritual only,it needs physical energy and life force to manifest itself into a tangible form. Using Susanoo more and more will decrease Sasuke's life force energy and he will only get weaker over time,with less stamina that forms the basis for chakra. 
"That jutsu" isnt Bijuu Rasengan, unless you think that Bijuu Rasengan can somehow bypass Madara's phasing jutsu and kill him. Its something Minato developed and though that it could be used to kill Madara in the future, he even told Naruto that you need very unique set of skills to defeat Madara which leads me to believe that "That jutsu" is either :
1) A Space/Time jutsu, Minato is famous for those

2)An Uzumaki sealing jutsu

Cant imagine it being something else...

As for the Sealing jutsus part,we dont realy know how they function since its the only ninja art Kishi hasnt explained so far. Im sure they have something to do with a specific chakra nature not just with drawing some symbols.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (May 7, 2011)

Naruto has no genjutsu defense. So no matter how fast he is, he'll get genjutsu'ed instantly by Sasuke.


----------



## ?Sharingan Squid? (May 7, 2011)

He can't.

He is going to get treated like a ragdoll.
Tru stry guise.


----------



## SageRafa (May 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Naruto has no genjutsu defense. So no matter how fast he is, he'll get genjutsu'ed instantly by Sasuke.



Not acounting for the fact that * Naruto must win to face Madara later *
do you really think Naruto will * lose * the match and just with a * Genjutsu * ?

The match will most problably start with Sasuke using a EMS Genjutsu , he shouldn't keep it for last , then some way don't ask me how , the Kyuubi will help , Naruto will break alone or Itachi gift will break it but one of those is gonna happen ..

Genjutsu will be the beggining of the fight and then they will have a Tai-Nin Battle , because that's what we want .. What would be the point in powering-up Naruto so much give the Sasuke vs Naruto's battle  so hype just to arrive there and Sasuke uses a Genjutsu and wins in one-panel ? 

That isn't happening even if you dream about it


----------



## jacamo (May 7, 2011)

Tobi/Madara isnt going to throw Sasuke at Naruto if they arent equal


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 7, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Not acounting for the fact that * Naruto must win to face Madara later *
> do you really think Naruto will * lose * the match and just with a * Genjutsu * ?



At this moment, yes! 

Unless you can prove to me Naruto has Genjutsu defense?  



SageRafa said:


> The match will most problably start with Sasuke using a EMS Genjutsu , he shouldn't keep it for last , then some way don't ask me how , the Kyuubi will help , Naruto will break alone or Itachi gift will break it but one of those is gonna happen ..



Your just speculating and assuming stuff. Lets stick to the manga.  



SageRafa said:


> Genjutsu will be the beggining of the fight and then they will have a Tai-Nin Battle , because that's what we want .. What would be the point in powering-up Naruto so much give the Sasuke vs Naruto's battle  so hype just to arrive there and Sasuke uses a Genjutsu and wins in one-panel ?



Again more speculation and assumption. This is what YOU think will happen. This is what YOU want to happen. 



SageRafa said:


> That isn't happening even if you dream about it



Based on your speculation and assumption, only person whose dreaming is you.  

Next time try using the manga.  

Like this, Manga has shown Naruto has no genjutsu defense.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

Actually, yeah.Naru HAS genjutsu defense.Kage Bunshin no jutsu says hi  Also disrupting the chakra flow by inserting more chakra.It didn't work against the master Itachi but Sascake is no Itachi and Naru has access to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more chakra now.


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## boecker (May 7, 2011)

But Sasuke just received a powerup too via Itachi's eyes.


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Actually, yeah.Naru HAS genjutsu defense.Kage Bunshin no jutsu says hi  Also disrupting the chakra flow by inserting more chakra.It didn't work against the master Itachi but Sascake is no Itachi and Naru has access to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more chakra now.



How does a Kage Bunshin stops Naruto from getting Genjutsu'ed.

No matter how much chakra Naruto has, Shi a medical ninja, who has excellent chakra control got genjutsu'ed by Sasuke.

Also you don't have to be on Itachi level to genjutsu Naruto. Who has no genjutsu defense.


----------



## best Kage ever (May 7, 2011)

OP, we reading same manga?
What part of "eyes vs body" battle you can't understand,

Sasuke has little, fragile uchiha body that cannot compete in psychical departments with fully developed Senju or Uzumaki - he will just hide under Susanoo and shoot lasers from eyes


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> How does a Kage Bunshin stops Naruto from getting Genjutsu'ed.
> 
> No matter how much chakra Naruto has, Shi a medical ninja, who has excellent chakra control got genjutsu'ed by Sasuke.
> 
> Also you don't have to be on Itachi level to genjutsu Naruto. Who has no genjutsu defense.



UH, you do read the manga, right?

Weakness of genjutsu is numbers as stated by Chiyo (i think) and Naru's numbers can go from 1-1000 as he stated himself.

just like he did in the manga

Kakashi Hatake, u have short term memory or something?We've had that argument before.




Shi doesn't have anywhere near the amount of chakra of Naruto.


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## Addy (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Actually, yeah.Naru HAS genjutsu defense.Kage Bunshin no jutsu says hi  Also disrupting the chakra flow by inserting more chakra.It didn't work against the master Itachi but Sascake is no Itachi and Naru has access to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more chakra now.



shadow clones are crap if naruto falls into genjutsu before he uses them like he did with itachi. 

he said that he can use 1000 clones against itachi and lost after using only 2 and itachi genjutsued the real naruto already. 

kind of reminds me of wind vs a lightning jutsu. if both don't clash as with the danzo vs sasuke fight, then the affinity does not matter.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

Addy said:


> shadow clones are crap if naruto falls into genjutsu before he uses them like he did with itachi.
> 
> he said that he can use 1000 clones against itachi and lost after using only 2 and itachi genjutsued the real naruto already.
> 
> kind of reminds me of wind vs a lightning jutsu. if both don't clash as with the danzo vs sasuke fight, then the affinity does not matter.



There's a difference between 2 and a thousand clones.And Itachi got Naruto when he wasn't using clones and were talking about Sascake "I'm better brother to him than you blah blah" maaaaaaaad


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## Addy (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> There's a difference between 2 and a thousand clones.And Itachi got Naruto when he wasn't using clones and were talking about Sascake "I'm better brother to him than you blah blah" maaaaaaaad



well, yeah 

still, you can't just put conditions like "if naruto was not distracted with his wet dreams of sasuke, he would have used 1000 clones" however, if you read the fight, itachi  says "your already in my genjutsu". he somehow genjutsued him without his notice.


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## Face (May 7, 2011)

Addy said:


> shadow clones are crap if naruto falls into genjutsu before he uses them like he did with itachi.
> 
> he said that he can use 1000 clones against itachi and lost after using only 2 and itachi genjutsued the real naruto already.
> 
> kind of reminds me of wind vs a lightning jutsu. if both don't clash as with the danzo vs sasuke fight, then the affinity does not matter.



Itachi caught Naruto once after he had learned about his Genjutsu and that was because he had no idea who he was looking at.

Naruto has many ways to get out of Genjutsu. He can either use Jiraiya's method or KB. I don't even understand why you are using Itachi as an example. It's been made clear that when it comes to using Genjutsu, Sasuke is not as good as Itachi.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

Addy said:


> well, yeah
> 
> still, you can't just put conditions like *"if naruto was not distracted with his wet dreams of sasuke*, he would have used 1000 clones" however, if you read the fight, itachi  says "your already in my genjutsu". *he somehow genjutsued him without his notice.*



You answered your own question 

Do we know exactly when Naru got caught?

just like he did in the manga

I'm voting for here because of Itachi's smile


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## Skywalker (May 7, 2011)

Simple enough, he can't.


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> UH, you do read the manga, right?
> 
> Weakness of genjutsu is numbers as stated by Chiyo (i think) and Naru's numbers can go from 1-1000 as he stated himself.
> 
> ...



Chinese letter username guy, you have short term memory or you don't know what your talking about. I told you before and I am telling you again this, its like you like to repeat yourself when you've been proven wrong many times.

Kage Bunshin does not stop Naruto from getting into genjutsu. Kage Bunshin helps Naruto get out of genjutsu by distracting his chakra system. Chiyo stated that team work, that include Kage Bunshin, is required to fight a genjutsu user so when one gets into genjutsu the other Kage Bunshin can get him out of it. 

You have yet to prove to me if Naruto even have any genjutsu defense. Tsukiyomi only requires 1-3 seconds to finish of an opponent. Will Naruto Kage Bunshin be fast enough to first notice Naruto is in genjutsu and second be quick enough to get him out of it? Its debateable, it depends on location and etc.

It doesn't matter if you have a bijuu level chakra, Naruto can have infinite chakra, that is not a defense against Genjutsu. Proven when Madara genjutsu'ed nine tailed fox. Its how you control it that matters. Shi has excellent chakra control, therefore to place him into genjutsu will be extremely difficult since to place him into genjutsu one needs to disrupt his chakra system. If Shi who is much better than Naruto at chakra control got Genjutsu'ed easily by Sasuke, then Naruto stands no chance.


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## SageRafa (May 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Chinese letter username guy, you have short term memory or you don't know what your talking about. I told you before and I am telling you again this, its like you like to repeat yourself when you've been proven wrong many times.
> 
> Kage Bunshin does not stop Naruto from getting into genjutsu. Kage Bunshin helps Naruto get out of genjutsu by distracting his chakra system. Chiyo stated that team work, that include Kage Bunshin, is required to fight a genjutsu user so when one gets into genjutsu the other Kage Bunshin can get him out of it.
> 
> ...



You're not understanding the point Naruto Kage Bunshins won't break the Genjutsu for him , it's the opposite , the genjutsu will be cast on a Kage Bunshin , the KB will poof and the opponent will waste chakra for killing just a KB ..

If Naruto makes 100 KB , Itachi or Sasuke or anyone that's facing him has to discover where is the real , the real Naruto is * the only one who can be put under genjutsu * , so every genjutsu used on the KB will be wasting chakra .. 

And as we know that Sharingan can't disting (sp) the KB for the originals unlike the Byakugan , They have no way of knowing who is the real Naruto until beating all the clones ..


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

> Chinese letter username guy, you have short term memory or you don't know what your talking about. I told you before and I am telling you again this, its like you like to repeat yourself when you've been proven wrong many times.



*Right back at ya* 




> Kage Bunshin does not stop Naruto from getting into genjutsu.
> 
> You have yet to prove to me if Naruto even have any genjutsu defense.




LOL, wtf are you talking about? So your point is that Naru can get caught in genjutsu.. cool, i guess.. what does it matter since he can break out of it?

But it's not certain thing though.Naru can use his clones like Kakashi did against fake Itachi to trick and defeat him.

"low"
"low"
"low"





> Naruto can have infinite chakra, that is not a defense against Genjutsu. Proven when Madara genjutsu'ed nine tailed fox.



Um, what the fuck?I doubt the Kyuubi tried to disrupt the chakra flow or even knows about that.

And Jiraiya stated that u just have to use *more power*

"low"


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## Addy (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> You answered your own question
> 
> Do we know exactly when Naru got caught?
> 
> ...



thanks, you gave me a new perspective on the battle 

naruto was so stupid that he attacked itachi with his real body even if he could have used shadow clones? 

i don't think it's because itachi is a master of genjutsu that he won. it's because naruto was an idiot 


Face said:


> Itachi caught Naruto once after he had learned about his Genjutsu and that was because he had no idea who he was looking at.
> 
> Naruto has many ways to get out of Genjutsu. He can either use Jiraiya's method or KB. I don't even understand why you are using Itachi as an example. It's been made clear that when it comes to using Genjutsu, Sasuke is not as good as Itachi.



well, he isn't as good as itachi but you can't just disregard him. th guy put danzo even if momentarily. i mean, unless you think that naruto is better than danzo in genjutsu or even shi that can use genjutsu.

ofcourse, that is if sasuke even uses it seeing how madara never used it on minato or any other sharingan jutsu.


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## Closet Pervert (May 7, 2011)

I don't quite understand it either. Naruto (with help) beat (crippled) Pain, then got a shitload stronger still. By feats (Asurasenganed, Kisame tackled, Sakura saved from Sasuke himself) he should be one of the fastest characters in the manga _ever_, shit he probably was so even in just Hermit Mode. He has fucking Rikudou Bling? on him, that shit is expensive. Soon he can probably go full Kyuubi mode Killerbee style, spam cero like Primera Espada but bigger and possibly elemental, which should be enough to make several Valley of the Ends in one fight.

Sasuke's greatest feat would be Danzo which is impressive, but really his only upgrade since the Kage Summit seems to be a better Susanoo with arrows. Fuuton > Susanoo, so to me, Sasuke seems kind of a weak match up for Naruto unless he gets Yata and some Bijuu for chakra so he can keep using Susanoo. *But i have no doubt* Kishi will give him infinite plot chakra again and some ridiculous EMS power up that makes people never have been born to begin with, even though Uchiha Madara himself had EMS AND Kyuubi and was killed by some wood.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Csdabest said:


> Honestly. The only thing Zetsu had to judge by was Hebi Sasuke. Or Sasuke vs Killer Bee. And as we know that sasuke was very gimped and inexperiened with his new toy.



Zetsu wasn't watching Sasuke vs. Bee. Otherwise being a chakra sensor he would have known that Bee had hid in a tentacle and there wouldn't have been any surprise reaction back at the sealing. 

So this means that Zetsu was judging Sasuke based off of his performance against Itachi. However he knew that Sasuke had lost Oro and the cursed seal. So he would have had to take that away from Sasuke. In other words all he could judge Sasuke on was base Sasuke. And even than Zetsu said *might* which means that there was a good enough chance that Sasuke would win. Again factoring in the fact that Zetsu could not have seen Minato he would have had to overvalue Naruto. So this means base Sasuke was in the same ballpark as SM Naruto.


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## O-ushi (May 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Chinese letter username guy, you have short term memory or you don't know what your talking about. I told you before and I am telling you again this, its like you like to repeat yourself when you've been proven wrong many times.
> 
> Kage Bunshin does not stop Naruto from getting into genjutsu. Kage Bunshin helps Naruto get out of genjutsu by distracting his chakra system. Chiyo stated that team work, that include Kage Bunshin, is required to fight a genjutsu user so when one gets into genjutsu the other Kage Bunshin can get him out of it.
> 
> ...



So all Naruto would have to do is go old school have clones with him beforehand and let them do the brunt of the fighting. Thats the only viable option he has really. 
Since the user and shadow clones are indistinguishable Sasuke would have to cast mass genjutsu over every clone. While you could argue Sasuke's observational skills would pick out who the real from the clones Naruto's a natural prankster, he's fooled people plenty of times. 

The method he learned from Jiraya is still something he could use because the nine tails chakra is ridiculously vast incomparison to all the other tailed beasts and its all squashed inside of small human. 

We have to also remember the nine tails chakra has been sepreated from the demon fox, its basically Naruto's chakra now.  From how I see it both Madara and Sasuke were able to surpress the nine tails chakra because they could supress the nine tail fox with the Sharingan. Sharingan manipulates peoples chakra not directly control it aka Genjutsu.

In this situation sasuke would be forced to use sharingan only on Naruto, most likely the mangekyo ones like he was forced to against Bee in his chakra shroud form. 

Ordinarily Mangekyo damages the eye to boot but with him obtaining Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan that shouldnt happen anymore but it should still eat up a lot of chakra.

About eternal mangekyo sharingan we dont know anything about it other than it allows a sharingan user to do everything they could do before and doesnt hurt or makes them go blind anymore. 
So its 50/50 chance that a fight between Sasuke and Naruto could go either way untill we get more info on it. 

In my opinion throughout the story from the beginning I think Naruto has always felt inferior to Sasuke even when Naruto has the power to destroy to him, though funny enough its because of that he's so strong. 
I think author of the manga meant it as an excuse for Naruto when he said he cant match up to Sasuke. If Naruto is still trying to save Sasuke then the power sage mode has is nowhere near enough, and perhaps not the nine tails chakra if it'll wind up killing Sasuke.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Zetsu wasn't watching Sasuke vs. Bee. Otherwise being a chakra sensor he would have known that Bee had hid in a tentacle and there wouldn't have been any surprise reaction back at the sealing.
> 
> So this means that Zetsu was judging Sasuke based off of his performance against Itachi. However he knew that Sasuke had lost Oro and the cursed seal. So he would have had to take that away from Sasuke. In other words all he could judge Sasuke on was base Sasuke. And even than Zetsu said *might* which means that there was a good enough chance that Sasuke would win. Again factoring in the fact that Zetsu could not have seen Minato he would have had to overvalue Naruto. So this means base Sasuke was in the same ballpark as SM Naruto.



Wait.. what are you on about?What does *MS* Sascake (pre-Susano) have over *base* Sascake, anyway?*Kirin (base Sascake)>Amaterasu (MS Sascake) btw* So it doesn't matter even if Tobi didn't tell Zetsu about almost getting kill by it and Zetsu doesn't know that Sascake had MS for some reason pre-Kage summit (which is a ridiculous thing to assume)


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## Summers (May 7, 2011)

Its fair to say this was  a very successful troll thread.


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## Skywalker (May 7, 2011)

summers said:


> Its fair to say this was  a very successful troll thread.


Everyone has to take these threads seriously in the KL.


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

Some peeps need to go read up how Genjutsu Kai works and go find out why RM is the greatest Kai ever.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Wait.. what are you on about?What does *MS* Sascake (pre-Susano) have over *base* Sascake, anyway?*Kirin (base Sascake)>Amaterasu (MS Sascake) btw* So it doesn't matter even if Tobi didn't tell Zetsu about almost getting kill by it and Zetsu doesn't know that Sascake had MS for some reason pre-Kage summit (which is a ridiculous thing to assume)



So you agree that base Sasuke = SM Naruto?


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> So you agree that base Sasuke = SM Naruto?



I said that the assumption that Zetsu doesn't know about Sascake's Amaterasu is ridiculous 

The rest of my post was just because i wondered why you are trying so hard to prove that Zetsu was only thinking of base Sascake when he said what he said, considering the fact that base Sascake's Kirin is better than MS Sascake's Amaterasu, anyway


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## Summers (May 7, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> Everyone has to take these threads seriously in the KL.



LOL it seems so.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I said that the assumption that Zetsu doesn't know about Sascake's Amaterasu is ridiculous
> 
> The rest of my post was just because i wondered why you are trying so hard to prove that Zetsu was only thinking of base Sascake when he said what he said, considering the fact that base Sascake's Kirin is better than MS Sascake's Amaterasu, anyway



Zetsu would not have known about Sasuke being able to use Amaterasu. As we both know the Amaterasu that Tobi was hit with was Itachi's not Sasuke's. That's why the eye turned into Itachi's MS not Sasuke's.

Therefore Zetsu could only judge Sasuke on his base abilities.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Zetsu would not have known about Sasuke being able to use Amaterasu. As we both know the Amaterasu that Tobi was hit with was Itachi's not Sasuke's. That's why the eye turned into Itachi's MS not Sasuke's.
> 
> Therefore Zetsu could only judge Sasuke on his base abilities.



And how does Zetsu know that it was just a one time thing and won't activate again when Sascake's in trouble?


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> And how does Zetsu know that it was just a one time thing and won't activate again when Sascake's in trouble?



Well either he wouldn't know about it at all because Madara didn't tell him about it. Or he would know about it as "Itachi's failsafe" which only activates at the sight of Tobi's sharingan.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

Sasuke felt the need of the EMS to fight base/SM Naruto since Sasuke has no knowledge about SM abilities nor about Naruto mastering Kyuubi. When their fists colided both knew exactly how strong they are.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Sasuke felt the need of the EMS to fight base/SM Naruto since Sasuke has no knowledge about SM abilities nor about Naruto mastering Kyuubi. When their fists colided both knew exactly how strong they are.



No, he didn't say he needed it to fight evenly with Naruto. He stated that he wanted to completely crush Naruto with it. Huge difference between the two. 

It's like dropping the nukes on Japan, we didn't need to do it. We just wanted to completely crush their moral so that we wouldn't have to invade them.

And as you pointed out, they both knew each other's strength. They than both agreed that Naruto was weaker. Sasuke outright said he would kill Naruto, and Naruto admitted inferiority as well as the need for a new power to fight Sasuke.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, he didn't say he needed it to fight evenly with Naruto. He stated that he wanted to completely crush Naruto with it. Huge difference between the two.
> 
> It's like dropping the nukes on Japan, we didn't need to do it. We just wanted to completely crush their moral so that we wouldn't have to invade them.
> 
> And as you pointed out, they both knew each other's strength. They than both agreed that Naruto was weaker. Sasuke outright said he would kill Naruto, and Naruto admitted inferiority as well as the need for a new power to fight Sasuke.



No,Naruto said that if he were to fight Sasuke,they would both die, how is that weaker ? And this was Naruto before mastering Kyuubi compared to MS Sasuke. Mastering Kyuubi is a much bigger power boost then MS with no blindness drawback,i dont see how Sasuke can compete at the moment,not without Madara synchronizing him to GM giving him chakra levels compared to Nagatos.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, he didn't say he needed it to fight evenly with Naruto. He stated that he wanted to completely crush Naruto with it. Huge difference between the two.
> 
> It's like dropping the nukes on Japan, we didn't need to do it. We just wanted to completely crush their moral so that we wouldn't have to invade them.
> 
> And as you pointed out, they both knew each other's strength. *They than both agreed that Naruto was weaker.* Sasuke outright said he would kill Naruto, and Naruto admitted inferiority as well as the need for a new power to fight Sasuke.



Oh, did they now?Naru said right in Sascake's face *that they are both gonna die!*

And again:

-Naru didn't want Sascake dead at the time.
-Zetsu and Tobi were there to save Sascake's ass if needed be.
-Naru needs the Kyuubi every time he fights!


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> No,Naruto said that if he were to fight Sasuke,they would both die, how is that weaker ? And this was Naruto before mastering Kyuubi compared to MS Sasuke. Mastering Kyuubi is a much bigger power boost then MS with no blindness drawback,i dont see how Sasuke can compete at the moment,not without Madara synchronizing him to GM giving him chakra levels compared to Nagatos.





畜生道 said:


> Oh, did they now?Naru said right in Sascake's face *that they are both gonna die!*
> 
> And again:
> 
> ...



Naruto made a prediction about the *future*. He predicted that they would both die in the *future*. 

However Sasuke did not agree with this prediction because he knew that Naruto was weaker than him. Naruto also admitted inferiority and stated he would need to get stronger in order to fight Sasuke.


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

Stop arguing guys  You'll just end up running in circles with your arguments.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto made a prediction about the *future*. He predicted that they would both die in the *future*.
> 
> However Sasuke did no agree with this prediction because he knew that Naruto was weaker than him.



Who cares what the arrogant retard Sascake thinks?I sure as hell DON'T.So don't use that argument with me.Also that's not the first time he was wrong:

"You won't be able to put a scratch on my forehead Naru"


"This jutsu is Kirin.. *is unavoidable like Amaterasu*" 



> Naruto also admitted inferiority and stated he would need to get stronger in order to fight Sasuke.


*
And again:

-Naru didn't want Sascake dead at the time.
-Zetsu and Tobi were there to save Sascake's ass if needed be.
-Naru needs the Kyuubi every time he fights!*


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto made a prediction about the *future*. He predicted that they would both die in the *future*.
> 
> However Sasuke did not agree with this prediction because he knew that Naruto was weaker than him. Naruto also admitted inferiority and stated he would need to get stronger in order to fight Sasuke.



No Naruto thinks that he is stronger then Sauce ones he masters the Kyuubi chakra,he confirmed that in front of Gama sennin . The way i see it, SM Naruto = MS Sasuke, RM Naruto > EMS Sasuke, RM Naruto + Itachi's gift = EMS Sasuke + GM.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Who cares what the arrogant retard Sascake thinks?I sure as hell DON'T.So don't use that argument with me.Also that's not the first time he was wrong:
> 
> "You won't be able to put a scratch on my forehead Naru"
> 
> ...



Sasuke and Naruto both agree that Naruto is inferior. 100% of the people who know of Naruto's and Sasuke's power agree that Naruto is inferior. 

It's like "10 out of 10 dentist agree brushing your teeth helps your oral health." To which you respond to "I don't give a shit about 9 of those dentists, they make arrogant statements about gum and floss too! And that last dentist, well he was being modest."



> *
> And again:
> 
> -Naru didn't want Sascake dead at the time.
> ...



Naruto never wants Sasuke dead, but he himself stated that he would lose to Sasuke if they fought at that time.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke and Naruto both agree that Naruto is inferior. 100% of the people who know of Naruto's and Sasuke's power agree that Naruto is inferior.
> 
> It's like "10 out of 10 dentist agree brushing your teeth helps your oral health." To which you respond to "I don't give a shit about 9 of those dentists, they make arrogant statements about gum and floss too! And that last dentist, well he was being modest."
> 
> ...



Except that according to Sasuke he still needs Itachi's power to beat base Naruto


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> No Naruto thinks that he is stronger then Sauce ones he masters the Kyuubi chakra,he confirmed that in front of Gama sennin . The way i see it, SM Naruto = MS Sasuke, RM Naruto > EMS Sasuke, RM Naruto + Itachi's gift = EMS Sasuke + GM.



No, Naruto stated he needed the Kyuubi just to fight MS Sasuke. Not that he was going to be stronger than MS Sasuke. 

The way you see it doesn't really matter, the way the manga states it is MS Sasuke > SM Naruto, MS Sasuke = RM Naruto, EMS Sasuke > RM Naruto. That's why Naruto's training is still incomplete and the reason why he has Itachi's crow.

It's not going to be a one sided fight in Naruto's favor, if anything it will be one sided in Sasuke's favor until Itachi's crow kicks in.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Except that according to Sasuke he still needs Itachi's power to beat base Naruto



Nope, Sasuke never made such a statement.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto never wants Sasuke dead, but he himself stated that he would lose to Sasuke if they fought at that time.



Well of course.If you are not fighting to kill in this manga, you are at a huge disadvantage.

Naru wouldn't have come even close to winning against Pein if Pein wanted to kill him.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Well of course.If you are not fighting to kill in this manga, you are at a huge disadvantage.
> 
> Naru wouldn't have come even close to winning against Pein if Pein wanted to kill him.



Indeed so base Sasuke >= SM Naruto.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Indeed so base Sasuke >= SM Naruto.



Well, if Naru is looking after Sascake's well being and going easy on him


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Well, if Naru is looking after Sascake's well being and going easy on him



Well Naruto does have respiratory problems which would give Sasuke an easy win.


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Indeed so base Sasuke >= SM Naruto.



You just need to STOP arguing with this person sometimes. Like I do


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Well Naruto does have respiratory problems which would give Sasuke an easy win.



Good one


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Good one



Thank you. :ho


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, Naruto stated he needed the Kyuubi just to fight MS Sasuke. Not that he was going to be stronger than MS Sasuke.
> 
> The way you see it doesn't really matter, the way the manga states it is MS Sasuke > SM Naruto, MS Sasuke = RM Naruto, EMS Sasuke > RM Naruto. That's why Naruto's training is still incomplete and the reason why he has Itachi's crow.
> 
> It's not going to be a one sided fight in Naruto's favor, if anything it will be one sided in Sasuke's favor until Itachi's crow kicks in.



Offcourse its not going to be a one sided fight in Naruto's favor but the fact that Madara wants to synchronize Sasuke to GM means that he will probably use the combined power of the Bijuu against Naruto  RM Naruto >>> EMS Sasuke, Naruto said that he was ready for Sauce so yeah.


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## Chicama (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, Naruto stated he needed the Kyuubi just to fight MS Sasuke. Not that he was going to be stronger than MS Sasuke.



It also doesn't mean he'll be weaker or equal. This whole argument is pretty silly, as we haven't seen the full extent of EMS. Kishi has been consistent with dishing out power-ups to both Naruto and Sasuke so one doesn't get too far in front of the other. Until we see what exactly EMS can do, I'm assuming they'll both be equals, especially seeing as Naruto plans on dying along with Sasuke.

Also, claiming Sasuke's MS is equal to Naruto's RM is fanboyism at its finest.


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## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

Bah, Naruto said they would both die if they fought again, their powers are equivalent or extremely close.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Offcourse its not going to be a one sided fight in Naruto's favor but the fact that Madara wants to synchronize Sasuke to GM means that he will probably use the combined power of the Bijuu against Naruto  RM Naruto >>> EMS Sasuke, Naruto said that he was ready for Sauce so yeah.



RM Naruto said he was ready for MS Sasuke, not EMS Sasuke. Naruto is one power up behind the way it stands, that's why he will need the crowjob. Also Naruto still needs to complete RM and learn to combine it with SM. Until than Naruto is fucked.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle, you should be a comedian.+ reps for making laugh  




AKmyWaffle said:


> RM Naruto said he was ready for MS Sasuke, not EMS Sasuke. Naruto is one power up behind the way it stands, that's why he will need the crowjob. Also Naruto still needs to complete RM and learn to combine it with SM. Until than Naruto is fucked.



Pretty big assumptions you make  You don't even know what exactly EMS Sascake will get and you think that would put him so much above MS and RM Naru.

Maybe it will be just another "unavoidable", "instant-kill" jutsu.So take it easy, will ya


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> RM Naruto said he was ready for MS Sasuke, not EMS Sasuke. Naruto is one power up behind the way it stands, that's why he will need the crowjob. Also Naruto still needs to complete RM and learn to combine it with SM. Until than Naruto is fucked.



No,Naruto knew what was going to come, he knows that Sasuke will get a power boost thats why he needs Kyuubi. Sasuke is the one who seem to think he needs EMS to beat Naruto.


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> No,Naruto knew what was going to come, he knows that Sasuke will get a power boost thats why he needs Kyuubi. Sasuke is the one who seem to think he needs EMS to beat Naruto.



lol how would naruto know that ..he never knew anything about the ems


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Pretty big assumptions you make  You don't even know what exactly EMS Sascake will get and you think that would put him so much above MS and RM Naru.
> 
> Maybe it will be just another "unavoidable", "instant-kill" jutsu.So take it easy, will ya



I know that it takes away the draw backs of the MS. Those draw backs are massive. So Sasuke is getting a massive power up from that alone. But Sasuke also stated that he could feel Itachi's power flowing into him. I assume that this means another upgrade to his chakra. On top of the hatred upgrades he has gotten before. 



?_Camorra_? said:


> No,Naruto knew what was going to come, he knows that Sasuke will get a power boost thats why he needs Kyuubi. Sasuke is the one who seem to think he needs EMS to beat Naruto.



No, Naruto has no knowledge whatsoever about Sasuke's power boost. He has no idea that EMS even exists. 

And you're repeating a lie. Sasuke never stated he needed EMS to beat SM Naruto. Naruto stated he needed RM to beat MS Sasuke, and he stated that he could not beat an exhausted MS Sasuke with SM alone.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> lol how would naruto know that ..he never knew anything about the ems



Maybe because every time Naru meats with Sascake, Sascake has gotten a lot stronger than before?And Naru knows that Sascake loves to chace after power


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I know that it takes away the draw backs of the MS. Those draw backs are massive. So Sasuke is getting a massive power up from that alone. But Sasuke also stated that he could feel Itachi's power flowing into him. I assume that this means another upgrade to his chakra. On top of the hatred upgrades he has gotten before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke seems to think otherwise, he needs Itachi's eyes to beat base Naruto according to your logic since Sasuke has no idea about SM  
Naruto told Gama sennin that he is prepared for everything including Sasuke so EMS wont be enough to put Sasuke on Naruto's level.


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Sasuke seems to think otherwise, he needs Itachi's eyes to beat base Naruto according to your logic since Sasuke has no idea about SM
> Naruto told Gama sennin that he is prepared for everything including Sasuke so EMS wont be enough to put Sasuke on Naruto's level.



first of all sasuke got itachis eyes because he was blind and second NARUTO WAS IN SAGE MODE WHEN THEY MET


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Maybe because every time Naru meats with Sascake, Sascake has gotten a lot stronger than before?And Naru knows that Sascake loves to chace after power



your assumption is very naive..by your account nagato should have known sage modes abilitys when he fought jiriya...sometimes logic doesnt work


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> first of all sasuke got itachis eyes because he was blind and second NARUTO WAS IN SAGE MODE WHEN THEY MET



Naruto wasnt in SM,what the hell are you talking about ?


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Naruto wasnt in SM,what the hell are you talking about ?



ys he was how do you think he sensed their location?..he ws using th clone hidden were yamoto waas as his absorbtion for senjustu


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Sasuke seems to think otherwise, he needs Itachi's eyes to beat base Naruto according to your logic since Sasuke has no idea about SM
> Naruto told Gama sennin that he is prepared for everything including Sasuke so EMS wont be enough to put Sasuke on Naruto's level.



Actually as you stated, when Naruto and Sasuke's attacks collided they knew each all about each other's powers. 

Like I said a good amount of times now, Sasuke never stated he needed Itachi's eyes to beat SM Naruto. On the other hand Naruto did state that he needed RM to fight MS Sasuke. And no, Naruto knows nothing about EMS, there is no way he could.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> ys he was how do you think he sensed their location?..he ws using th clone hidden were yamoto waas as his absorbtion for senjustu



Link removed

Where did you see Sm again ?


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I know that it takes away the draw backs of the MS. Those draw backs are massive. So Sasuke is getting a massive power up from that alone. But Sasuke also stated that he could feel Itachi's power flowing into him. I assume that this means another upgrade to his chakra. On top of the hatred upgrades he has gotten before.



Those drawbacks wouldn't have come up if Naru battled a fresh MS Sascake, anyway 

I don't see how more chakra or hatred will help Sascake if he's hit with Bijuu-dama  They sure are helpful if they are gonna play "who will outlast the other" game, but if Sascake is hit with Bijuu-dama at the start of the battle, he dies at the start of the battle


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Those drawbacks wouldn't have come up if Naru battled a fresh MS Sascake, anyway
> 
> I don't see how more chakra or hatred will help Sascake if he's hit with Bijuu-dama  They sure are helpful if they are gonna play "who will outlast the other" game, but if Sascake is hit with Bijuu-dama at the start of the battle, he dies at the start of the battle



Naruto can't use the Bijuu-dama. Although if Naruto is hit with genjutsu at the beginning of the battle he will dies.


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## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I know that it takes away the draw backs of the MS. Those draw backs are massive. So Sasuke is getting a massive power up from that alone. But Sasuke also stated that he could feel Itachi's power flowing into him. I assume that this means another upgrade to his chakra. On top of the hatred upgrades he has gotten before.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 that's why even before Madara and crew withdrew, Sasuke was asking after his brothers eyes. 



> Naruto stated he needed RM to beat MS Sasuke, and he stated that he could not beat an exhausted MS Sasuke with SM alone.



First, I think you're well aware of what Naruto was suggesting when he said "defeat Sasuke."  Look no further than his flashback with Iruka.  Secondly, Naruto's statement didn't have anything to do with Sasuke being exhausted as he was speaking to the their respective potentials.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> your assumption is very naive..by your account nagato should have known sage modes abilitys when he fought jiriya...sometimes logic doesnt work



He doesn't need to know what the exact power up is.All he needs to know is that Sascake will become a lot stronger.Which is a good assumption to make considering Sascake's past history.

Just like now people like AKmyWaffle are suggesting that EMS Sascake will be more powerful than RM Naru even though he doesn't know what jutsus Sascake will gain.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto can't use the Bijuu-dama.



He will eventually  




> Although if Naruto is hit with genjutsu at the beginning of the battle he will dies.



Yeah, because Sascake has totally  managed to kill anyone with genjutsu before..


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> He doesn't need to know what the exact power up is.All he needs to know is that Sascake will become a lot stronger.Which is a good assumption to make considering Sascake's past history.
> 
> Just like now people like AKmyWaffle are suggesting that EMS Sascake will be more powerful than RM Naru even though he doesn't know what jutsus Sascake will gain.



i personally think they will be about the same..but i have to point out thatyour putting words in naruto mouth...no were does it say he knew he will get a powerup ..infact narutoo never saw sasuke even use the ms


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Soul Assassin said:


> that's why even before Madara and crew withdrew Sasuke was asking after his brothers eyes.



Sasuke was going blind, so of course he would ask for Itachi's eyes regardless. He didn't feel the full effects of MS until his fight with Kakashi.



> First, I think you're well aware of what Naruto was suggesting when he said "defeat Sasuke."  Look no further than his flashback with Iruka.  Secondly, Naruto's statement didn't have anything to do with Sasuke being exhausted as he was speaking to the their respective potentials.



Yes, Naruto was suggesting a draw which resulted in both of their deaths. In other words Naruto thought MS Sasuke = RM Naruto. 

And yes it had everything to do with an exhausted Sasuke. Neji asked why Naruto didn't take out the exhausted Sasuke, and Naruto replied that he couldn't defeat Sasuke.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke was going blind, so of course he would ask for Itachi's eyes regardless. He didn't feel the full effects of MS until his fight with Kakashi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Even though Naruto hasnt seen MS techniques and Sasuke hasnt seen SM in action they both knew how strong they are and if they were to fight both would die so your argument is pointless. Sasuke wasnt blind after he fought Danzou yet suddenly he asks Madara to give him Itachi's eyes in order to gain the power to fight Naruto. Sasuke doesent believe MS is enough to beat SM Naruto so he wants EMS to be sure but he doesent take RM into account.
Also Zetsu who knows that Sasuke fought Killer Bee seems to think that Naruto is stronger and Sasuke didnt deny it either


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i personally think they will be about the same..but i have to point out thatyour putting words in naruto mouth...no were does it say he knew he will get a powerup ..infact narutoo never saw sasuke even use the ms



So Naru needs to see MS to know that Sascake was far more powerful than the last time they met? Apparently to them, only trading fists was enough


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Yeah, because Sascake has totally  managed to kill anyone with genjutsu before..



He doesn't have to kill Naruto with the genjutsu. He just needs to distract him with it long enough to land a critical hit.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> He doesn't have to kill Naruto with the genjutsu. He just needs to distract him with it long enough to land a critical hit.



We'll see about that


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Even though Naruto hasnt seen MS techniques and Sasuke hasnt seen SM in action they both knew how strong they are and if they were to fight both would die so your argument is pointless. Sasuke wasnt blind after he fought Danzou yet suddenly he asks Madara to give him Itachi's eyes in order to gain the power to fight Naruto. Sasuke doesent believe MS is enough to beat SM Naruto so he wants EMS to be sure but he doesent take RM into account.
> Also Zetsu who knows that Sasuke fought Killer Bee seems to think that Naruto is stronger and Sasuke didnt deny it either



Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm
Like I said, Sasuke felt the drawbacks of MS during his fight with Kakashi. 


And for the 20th time now. Sasuke never stated or implied that he needed EMS to kill SM Naruto. Both Naruto and Sasuek agreed that MS Sasuke > SM Naruto.


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm
> Like I said, Sasuke felt the drawbacks of MS during his fight with Kakashi.
> 
> 
> And for the 20th time now. Sasuke never stated or implied that he needed EMS to kill SM Naruto. Both Naruto and Sasuek agreed that MS Sasuke > SM Naruto.



Yeah SM Naru who didn't want to kill Sascake.Apparently next time that won't be the case since "they will both die"


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## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke was going blind, so of course he would ask for Itachi's eyes regardless. He didn't feel the full effects of MS until his fight with Kakashi.



Yes, Sasuke was going blind.  However, it's funny how he doesn't mention this at all, but rather makes statements to achieving greater power in his conversation with Madara.  

Again, Naruto confronting Sasuke makes little sense at all without the shared vision being a truth they both could appreciate.  



> Yes, Naruto was suggesting a draw which resulted in both of their deaths. In other words Naruto thought MS Sasuke = RM Naruto.



No -  Naruto was speaking to their respective potentials.  It's entirely possible that, in that moment they registered with one another, Naruto understood Sasuke's thoughts on how to further augment himself after Sasuke saw his inability to achieve his goal (the destruction of the leaf).  Naruto did indicate that he knew his thoughts as you well know.  



> And yes it had everything to do with an exhausted Sasuke. Neji asked why Naruto didn't take out the exhausted Sasuke, and Naruto replied that he couldn't defeat Sasuke.



Yes, and again, what did Naruto mean by defeat?  He's not looking to kill his friend; he's looking to win him back.


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## Face (May 7, 2011)

Addy said:


> well, he isn't as good as itachi but you can't just disregard him. th guy put danzo even if momentarily. i mean, unless you think that naruto is better than danzo in genjutsu or even shi that can use genjutsu.
> 
> ofcourse, that is if sasuke even uses it seeing how madara never used it on minato or any other sharingan jutsu.



Knowing Genjutsu does not automatically give you defence against illusions. Jiraiya knew Naruto wasn't good at using Genjutsu so instead he focused on teaching Naruto everything he knew about defending against illusions. So far we have yet to see a single person attempt the same method Naruto learned. 

Shi clearly didn't know anything about defending even though he was aware that he was under Genjutsu. Also the illusion used on Danzo was very basic. I'm pretty sure it won't be used on Naruto.


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> So Naru needs to see MS to know that Sascake was far more powerful than the last time they met? Apparently to them, only trading fists was enough



that might have been the most corny line i ever heard in this manga...and i heard alot lol...but bak to bussiness. i dont see how naruto cold know how powerful sasuke is now..let alone how powerful he might become.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Yeah SM Naru who didn't want to kill Sascake.Apparently next time that won't be the case since "they will both die"



Not according to Sasuke. And I'm guessing that Tobi wouldn't allow the fight to happen if he didn't think that Sasuke would win either. 

So chances are Sasuke will be a good amount stronger than Naruto before Itachi's crow kicks in.


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## Face (May 7, 2011)

^I expect them to be equal since Sasuke is supposed to be synced with Gedou Mazo. 

I expected Naruto to be more impressive physically considering he possesses Rikudou's body. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't be equal when they fight. Sasuke has Susanoo to defend against RM.


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## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Not according to Sasuke. And I'm guessing that Tobi wouldn't allow the fight to happen if he didn't think that Sasuke would win either.
> 
> So chances are Sasuke will be a good amount stronger than Naruto before Itachi's crow kicks in.



Yes, in accordance with what Sasuke saw (the same immediately grasping for more power to achieve his goal).  And Madara will play the situation to his own advantage; whether it's advantageous for the encounter to be potentially devastating to Sasuke or not remains to be seen.  

This is silly.  When everything is said and done, they will be almost a perfect match.  Sasuke is equipping himself to achieve his goal.  This is nothing less than measuring back to the Leaf what was measured to the Uchiha (taking every single life no matter how guilty, innocent or unknowing they may be).  Naruto is equipping himself to be able to stop Sasuke from achieving that goal, bear the brunt of that anger, and hopefully change his friend's perspective (if by no other means than showing Sasuke that his goal will never be achieved).  It's likely that if Sasuke doesn't relent, they both will die.  For the story to work a balance of power will be achieved regardless of any minor asymmetry.  And for the story to work I think we're going to have to see some very creative justice as well.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Soul Assassin said:


> Yes, in accordance with what Sasuke saw (the same immediately grasping for more power to achieve his goal).  And Madara will play the situation to his own advantage; whether it's advantageous for the encounter to be potentially devastating to Sasuke or not remains to be seen.
> 
> This is silly.  When everything is said and done, they will be almost a perfect match.  Sasuke is equipping himself to achieve his goal.  This is nothing less than measuring back to the Leaf what was measured to the Uchiha (taking every single life no matter how guilty, innocent or unknowing they may be).  Naruto is equipping himself to be able to stop Sasuke from achieving that goal, bear the brunt of that anger, and hopefully change his friend's perspective (if by no other means than showing Sasuke that his goal will never be achieved).  It's likely that if Sasuke doesn't relent, they both will die.  For the story to work a balance of power will be achieved regardless of any minor asymmetry.  And for the story to work I think we're going to have to see some very creative justice as well.



A power balance will be achieved. However Naruto will need much more than what RM has to offer in order to match EMS Sasuke, he will at the very least need Itachi's crow to fight evenly with Sasuke. That much is almost certain.


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## Face (May 7, 2011)

EMS Sasuke hasn't shown anything. 
Neither has RM Naruto.


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## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> A power balance will be achieved. However Naruto will need much more than what RM has to offer in order to match EMS Sasuke, he will at the very least need Itachi's crow to fight evenly with Sasuke. That much is almost certain.



Knowing as little as we do about Naruto's powers, EMS, and the crow either makes you clairvoyant or Kishimoto (with statements such as this).  It's all assumption; we have no idea how this is going to play out.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Soul Assassin said:


> Knowing as little as we do about Naruto's powers, EMS, and the crow either makes you clairvoyant or Kishimoto.  It's all assumption; we have no idea how this is going to play out.



Indeed, however we do know that Naruto's RM mode is meant to be the equivalent of MS Sasuke. Which means Naruto is currently one power up behind Sasuke.

Like you said earlier, Kishi isn't going to make it a one sided fight. Therefore the addition of the crow could only even the playing field and not tip the scale drastically in Naruto's favor.


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## Addy (May 7, 2011)

Face said:


> Knowing Genjutsu does not automatically give you defence against illusions. Jiraiya knew Naruto wasn't good at using Genjutsu so instead he focused on teaching Naruto everything he knew about defending against illusions. *So far we have yet to see a single person attempt the same method Naruto learned. *
> 
> Shi clearly didn't know anything about defending even though he was aware that he was under Genjutsu. Also the illusion used on Danzo was very basic. I'm pretty sure it won't be used on Naruto.


didn't the raikage have a shroud that would disturb his chakra as what naruto did?


----------



## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Indeed, however we do know that Naruto's RM mode is meant to be the equivalent of MS Sasuke. Which means Naruto is currently one power up behind Sasuke.



No _we_ don't know any such thing; those are your thoughts on the matter which have already been contested.  I will agree with you in that we disagree on the matter.  



> Like you said earlier, Kishi isn't going to make it a one sided fight. Therefore the addition of the crow could only even the playing field and not tip the scale drastically in Naruto's favor.



Again, we really don't know anything about the crow outside of the fact that it looked absolutely hysterical going down Naruto's throat.  

Man I miss Itachi - anyone that has the power to shut Naruto up, even if only but for a moment, is truly, truly amazing in my book.


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## lathia (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Indeed, *however we do know that Naruto's RM mode is meant to be the equivalent of MS Sasuke.* Which means Naruto is currently one power up behind Sasuke.
> 
> Like you said earlier, Kishi isn't going to make it a one sided fight. Therefore the addition of the crow could only even the playing field and not tip the scale drastically in Naruto's favor.



We know this how? By Zetsu himself stating SM Naruto > MS Sasuke? 

Your logic amuses me. You can bet this much from Kishimoto when he makes a 1v1 Naruto vs Sasuke again. It will be a "close" fight no matter the outcome. He won't nerf Naruto nor Sasuke for their re-match.


----------



## Addy (May 7, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Link removed
> 
> Where did you see Sm again ?



i think he means before Link removed


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

lathia said:


> We know this how? By Zetsu himself stating SM Naruto > MS Sasuke?
> 
> Your logic amuses me. You can bet this much from Kishimoto when he makes a 1v1 Naruto vs Sasuke again. It will be a "close" fight no matter the outcome. He won't nerf Naruto nor Sasuke for their re-match.



Zetsu never made such a statement. He stated that SM Naruto + Minato's control over the Kyuubi's seal *might* be stronger than base Sasuke. However he couldn't judge Sasuke's abilities with MS since he never saw Sasuke use MS, therefore the best he could do was to judge base Sasuke without the MS or the cursed seal. Furthermore Naruto displayed control over the Kyuubi that he doesn't have. All Zetsu saw was Naruto transforming up to 8 tails and than reverting back to normal. However we know that this was a one time thing which was allowed by Minato's power and not Naruto's. 

And even with all this, Zetsu stated that Naruto *might* be stronger. This means that Zetsu was not certain and that there was a good chance that base Sasuke could beat SM Naruto + 8 tailed Fox. 




And I completely agree, it won't be completely one sided. But Sasuke will be stronger at the beginning of the fight, that much is basically guaranteed because Sasuke is a villain.


----------



## Aleph-1 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> And for the 20th time now. Sasuke never stated or implied that he needed EMS to kill SM Naruto.


Yes he did.

According to the translation, he tells Madara he wants to kill Naruto with his "full powers" after Madara asks him why he wants Itachi's eyes, the full powers of an Uchiha meaning EMS. 

Add that to the fact that Sasuke's vision was already worsening when he retreated with Madara. Sasuke at the time would have been in trouble after all the damage his eyes had taken from spamming MS jutsu's, and that his only knowledge of Naruto's SM which to my knowledge, he hasn't seen, comes from Zetsu. Zetsu put SM Naruto on par or possibly stronger than Sasuke. The same Sasuke who was outclassed in taijutsu and kenjutsu by Killer Bee and only escaped by last minute usage of Amaterasu.

So unless Sasuke was somehow able to get his damaged vision repaired in a different way (other than taking Itachi's eyes, which is what he chose to do), he pretty much needs EMS to kill SM Naruto at that point. How would Sasuke take on SM Naruto with his fucked eyesight?? How did Itachi lose to Sasuke when they fought?? He was ill from overusage of MS techniques and succumbed to death after pushing himself with Susanoo and taking damage in battle, that's how. lol Sasuke fanboy.



AKmyWaffle said:


> He stated that he wanted to completely crush Naruto with it. Huge difference between the two.


He wants to crush Naruto with EMS, but we both know they will likely fight equally as I think "crushing" Naruto implies killing him with overwhelming force, and the manga definitely won't end that way. There's a chance they could _both_ die but that ending's probably a long shot of really happening.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke outright said he would kill Naruto, and Naruto admitted inferiority as well as the need for a new power to fight Sasuke.


He wants to kill Naruto but will that actually happen in manga? Probably not, since there either has to be a huge gap in skill/strength (which there won't be since Naruto has RM now and Sasuke will have EMS when he's recovered), or one opponent gets a sudden huge advantage over the other (but if this happened they'd _both_ end up dying), for Sasuke to kill Naruto.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> Yes he did.



Great job showing off your lack of reading comprehension. Sasuke states that he wants to destroy Naruto. This does not mean he needs EMS to do it. It means that Sasuke wants it to be a completely one sided fight in his favor. 

As for the rest of your post, TL;DR.


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Great job showing off your lack of reading comprehension. Sasuke states that he wants to destroy Naruto. This does not mean he needs EMS to do it. It means that Sasuke wants it to be a completely one sided fight in his favor.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, TL;DR.



lol that wasnt the smartest link he could have showed lol


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## Aleph-1 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Great job showing off your lack of reading comprehension. Sasuke states that he wants to destroy Naruto. This does not mean he needs EMS to do it. It means that Sasuke wants it to be a completely one sided fight in his favor.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, TL;DR.



You didn't read the rest of my post. If you're too lazy to read my entire post and hear me out, then I'm too lazy to link the page prior to the one I posted earlier to show you this:

Madara asked Sasuke *what changed his mind (about wanting his brother's eyes)*, and Sasuke says he wants them to destroy Naruto with his full powers. And he does mean that he wants it to be completely one-sided fight in his favor when he says "destroy," but I would argue that it also means he wants to defeat/kill Naruto with overwhelming force. If he was able to do this without Itachi's eyes, then he wouldn't have asked for them. Why do you think Madara was so goddamn pleased about Sasuke changing his mind and asking for Itachi's eyes?


----------



## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Great job showing off your lack of reading comprehension. Sasuke states that he wants to destroy Naruto. This does not mean he needs EMS to do it. It means that Sasuke wants it to be a completely one sided fight in his favor.



Well...that's one way of interpreting the situation.  

Another way might be that Sasuke saw exactly what Naruto had indicated and understood that additional resources would be required to accomplish his goal.  In any event, it's idiotic to think that a fight against someone as powerful as Naruto would be completely one sided.  

It's equally idiotic to suggest that Naruto would bluff and call down destruction upon himself and Konoha.  It makes no sense.  He challenged Sasuke regarding all of what they saw because he knew _both of them_ were completely revealed in that exchange.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Soul Assassin said:


> Well...that's one way of interpreting the situation.
> 
> Another way might be that Sasuke saw exactly what Naruto had indicated and understood that additional resources would be required to accomplish his goal.  In any event, it's idiotic to think that a fight against someone as powerful as Naruto would be completely one sided.
> 
> It's equally idiotic to suggest that Naruto would bluff and call down a destruction upon himself and Konoha.  It makes no sense.  He challenged Sasuke regarding all of what they saw because he knew _both of them_ were completely revealed in that exchange.



No, both Naruto and Sasuke saw that Naruto was weaker. That's why Sasuke refused to acknowledge Naruto as his equal. It's also why Naruto admitted inferiority and stated that he needed a power up. That much is certain. 

And have we not seen this before? Naruto called out Neji and stated that he would kick his ass when he was clearly Neji's inferior. Naruto stated he would kill Oro when he clearly had no means to do so. Naruto makes these kinds of bluffs on a regular basis.


----------



## Time Expired (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, both Naruto and Sasuke saw that Naruto was weaker. That's why Sasuke refused to acknowledge Naruto as his equal. It's also why Naruto admitted inferiority and stated that he needed a power up. That much is certain.



We've been through this already; he didn't admit to any such thing.  What was the goal my friend?   Bringing the Sauce back around?  Yes.



> And have we not seen this before? Naruto called out Neji and stated that he would kick his ass when he was clearly Neji's inferior. Naruto stated he would kill Oro when he clearly had no means to do so. Naruto makes these kinds of bluffs on a regular basis.


 
 was he, in fact, inferior to Neji?  Proof was in the pudding in that contest.  Orochimaru?  Are you speaking to Orochimaru vs. KN4?   I'd say if things went a bit further in that match it would not have ended well for Orochimaru.  And I'm saying this as a huge Orochimaru fan.  Besides, these examples are clearly not equivalent.  There is no reason to doubt his statements here; as I said, both were revealed to one another.  And both went their separate ways reaching for more power.

...I digress - good tapping this back and forth with you.  Reps +

Edit:  give everyone's mom a break already


----------



## Aleph-1 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> No, both Naruto and Sasuke saw that Naruto was weaker. That's why Sasuke refused to acknowledge Naruto as his equal. It's also why Naruto admitted inferiority and stated that he needed a power up. That much is certain.


So according to you, Naruto, who defeated 5 of 6 Pein bodies in SM before going into tailed modes, is certainly weaker than Sasuke at that meeting? If Sasuke's so certain about being stronger than Naruto then I don't see why he'd demand to have Itachi's eyes from Madara as soon as they're alone to talk. Nevermind Naruto admitting inferiority. That is Naruto, and he may not be 100% right in his personal assessment anyways. 

No matter how easy it may be, you can't ignore that Sasuke was on the way to blindness without his brother's eyes.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> So according to you, Naruto, who defeated 5 of 6 Pein bodies in SM before going into tailed modes, is certainly weaker than Sasuke at that meeting? If Sasuke's so certain about being stronger than Naruto then I don't see why he'd demand to have Itachi's eyes from Madara as soon as they're alone to talk. Nevermind Naruto admitting inferiority. That is Naruto, and he may not be 100% right in his personal assessment anyways.
> 
> No matter how easy it may be, you can't ignore that Sasuke was on the way to blindness without his brother's eyes.



I would go as far as saying that MS Sasuke could rather easily defeat the 5/6 bodies if he were in Naruto's shoes. Keep in mind this means that Sasuke would have info on the Pain bodies as well as a frog army backing him up. In fact MS Sasuke could probably have wrecked all six bodies if he was in Naruto's shoes. 

Sasuke demanded Itachi's eyes for one reason and only one reason. To completely crush Naruto. Not to stand a chance at beating him, but instead to make an enormous gap between their powers. In no way does this imply equality. Furthermore Sasuke doesn't plan on simply crushing Naruto, he plans on attacking Konoha. He will need considerably more power to take on both Naruto and Konoha than he would need just to crush Naruto.


----------



## Raigamasa (May 7, 2011)

Soul Assassin said:


> Man I miss Itachi - anyone that has the power to shut Naruto up, even if only but for a moment, is truly, truly amazing in my book.



Then you should miss Pain more... not only he made Naruto shut up, and listen like a little doggy, he crucified him, and made him cry ^


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I would go as far as saying that MS Sasuke could rather easily defeat the 5/6 bodies if he were in Naruto's shoes. Keep in mind this means that Sasuke would have info on the Pain bodies as well as a frog army backing him up. In fact MS Sasuke could probably have wrecked all six bodies if he was in Naruto's shoes.



 Sasuke at the time of Naruto's Pain fight only unlocked Amaterasu. Animal path and Preta would Duo.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Sasuke at the time of Naruto's Pain fight only unlocked Amaterasu. Animal path and Preta would Duo.



if he had all three ablitys then i agree pain would have been out..with the toads helping..konha exhusting his chakra...it just a done deal


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> if he had all three ablitys then i agree pain would have been out..with the toads helping..konha exhusting his chakra...it just a done deal



That is highly debatable. But I wont be debating it, lol. You're entitled to your opinion.


----------



## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Soul Assassin said:


> We've been through this already; he didn't admit to any such thing.  What was the goal my friend?   Bringing the Sauce back around?  Yes.



Indeed Naruto ultimately wants to save Sasuke. He has told Sasuke that he wouldn't go down in history as either the man Sasuke killed or the man who killed Sasuke. 

"I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level." Would imply that Sasuke was on a completely different level from Naruto. 



> was he, in fact, inferior to Neji?  Proof was in the pudding in that contest.  Orochimaru?  Are you speaking to Orochimaru vs. KN4?   I'd say if things went a bit further in that match it would not have ended well for Orochimaru.  And I'm saying this as a huge Orochimaru fan.  Besides, these examples are clearly not equivalent.  There is no reason to doubt his statements here; as I said, both were revealed to one another.  And both went their separate ways reaching for more power.
> 
> ...I digress - good tapping this back and forth with you.  Reps +
> 
> Edit:  give everyone's mom a break already



He was inferior to Neji, and had Jiraiya not removed the five element seal Naruto would have been fucked up and down that arena like a rag doll. KN4 was no problem for Oro, since it had no real mind. It just attacked whatever was closest. So no, Naruto could not defeat Oro. The closest he could come on his own was to allow the Kyuubi to break the seal. But past the 4th tail it is all Kyuubi since Naruto passes out.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> That is highly debatable. But I wont be debating it, lol. You're entitled to your opinion.



thats just as bad as if you would debate lol...just sayin NO i dont agree ...o.k BYE


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

Why are you guys looking at things from the characters perspective alone? WE ARE THE ONES THAT KNOW IT ALL! Not the characters. If Naruto says he cant beat Konohamaru at his current level...we...the third party... that actually know every last thing that they dont...should be able to say if Naruto's statement was true or not.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Why are you guys looking at things from the characters perspective alone? WE ARE THE ONES THAT KNOW IT ALL! Not the characters. If Naruto says he cant beat Konohamaru at above his level...we...the third party... that actually know every last thing that they dont...should be able to say if Naruto's statement was true or not.



because are 3rd party perspective  is subjective between every1.....so in most cases its just as bad ..maybe even worse then the character independant comments


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> thats just as bad as if you would debate lol...just sayin NO i dont agree ...o.k BYE



Lolz, thats not Im saying bro. If I take this to the Battledome it wont be a land-slide for Sasuke to win. Im just saying it isnt universal FACT that Sasuke would defeat the Paths if put in Naruto's position.


----------



## Aleph-1 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> I would go as far as saying that MS Sasuke could rather easily defeat the 5/6 bodies if he were in Naruto's shoes. Keep in mind this means that Sasuke would have info on the Pain bodies as well as a frog army backing him up. In fact MS Sasuke could probably have wrecked all six bodies if he was in Naruto's shoes.


I won't argue whether or not Sasuke would wreck all six, but I find it funny how in some of your posts you seem to paint this picture of Naruto being much weaker than MS Sasuke despite what happened in the Pein battle.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke demanded Itachi's eyes for one reason and only one reason. To completely crush Naruto. Not to stand a chance at beating him, but instead to make an enormous gap between their powers. In no way does this imply equality. Furthermore Sasuke doesn't plan on simply crushing Naruto, he plans on attacking Konoha. He will need considerably more power to take on both Naruto and Konoha than he would need just to crush Naruto.


It doesn't imply equality, as you're probably right about Sasuke thinking he's already superior to Naruto at that time. The point I'm trying to make is that Sasuke can't even accomplish his first goal of crushing Naruto with just MS. So a half-blind MS Sasuke, who messes up his eyesight even more by spamming MS, thinking he's superior to Naruto is laughable. I think he clearly _needs_ EMS to defeat Naruto, not _wants_ it like he said. He may think he doesn't need it, but Sasuke is arrogant.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Lolz, thats not Im saying bro. If I take this to the Battledome it wont be a land-slide for Sasuke to win. Im just saying it isnt universal FACT that Sasuke would defeat the Paths if put in Naruto's position.



its kinda hard to make any fight that were imagining , that hasnt been done in the manga a univesal fact....sometime even if its done in the manga its still not a universal fact lol


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> I won't argue whether or not Sasuke would wreck all six, but I find it funny how in some of your posts you seem to paint this picture of Naruto being much weaker than MS Sasuke despite what happened in the Pein battle.



The Pain battle did not impress me. The bodies seemed to much weaker because Nagato had exhausted a large amount of chakra. Plus with the amount of support and prep time Naruto had I don't see too many top tier shinobi having difficulty performing on the same level. 



> It doesn't imply equality, as you're probably right about Sasuke thinking he's already superior to Naruto at that time. The point I'm trying to make is that there is no way he could accomplish his goals of killing Naruto and wiping out Konoha without taking Itachi's eyes. So a half-blind MS Sasuke, who messes up his eyesight even more by spamming MS, thinking he's superior to Naruto is laughable. I think he clearly _needs_ EMS to defeat Naruto, not _wants_ it like he said. He may think he doesn't need it, but Sasuke is arrogant.



While I agree that Sasuke would need more than MS to accomplish his goal of taking out Konoha as well as Naruto. I do not agree that Sasuke would need more than his MS to take down Naruto. Especially since both Naruto and Sasuke seem to agree that Sasuke was stronger.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

> Plus with the amount of support and prep time Naruto had I don't see too many top tier shinobi having difficulty performing on the same level.



I agree with the part that Pein was weaker but i don't agree here.Nagato also had prep time (prepping the bodies, finding a replacement for Animal etc etc) so Naru's prep is fair game.The support he had is also fair because Naru can summon all the summons.Or at least Ma and Pa and let them summon the rest.






AKmyWaffle said:


> Not according to Sasuke. And I'm guessing that Tobi wouldn't allow the fight to happen if he didn't think that Sasuke would win either.
> 
> So chances are Sasuke will be a good amount stronger than Naruto before Itachi's crow kicks in.



Not according to Sascake?SASCAKE?SERIOUSLY?You are gone use what that arrogant retard said as an argument?Please.. Need i remind you all the times he's been dead wrong?

Tobi?Who thought that Taka can capture Bee?Who thought that Sascake can weaken the Kages so he can capture them?





> I do not agree that Sasuke would need more than his MS to take down Naruto. Especially since both Naruto and Sasuke seem to agree that Sasuke was stronger.



Naru who wasn't willing to kill.Next time that won't be the case so even *EMS* Sascake's going down


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## Jak N Blak (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Not according to Sascake?SASCAKE?SERIOUSLY?




I laughed when I read this.


----------



## SpiRo (May 7, 2011)

Sasuke does not need to be compare with someone like Naruto.. 

Everyone with a brain knows Sasuke was, is and will always be better "ninja" then Naruto, while Naruto will always be better "human".


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Not according to Sascake?SASCAKE?SERIOUSLY?You are gone use what that arrogant retard said as an argument?Please.. Need i remind you all the times he's been dead wrong?
> 
> Tobi?Who thought that Taka can capture Bee?Who thought that Sascake can weaken the Kages so he can capture them?



When has Sasuke ever been wrong about being able to defeat Naruto? 



> Naru who wasn't willing to kill.Next time that won't be the case so even *EMS* Sascake's going down



Naruto admitted that Sasuke was on a completely different level. It's not that Sasuke wasn't willing, it's that he couldn't. At least that's what Naruto stated.


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## C-Moon (May 7, 2011)

SpiRo said:


> Sasuke does not need to be compare with someone like Naruto..
> 
> Everyone with a brain knows Sasuke was, is and will always be better "ninja" then Naruto, while Naruto will always be better "human".



I'll give you 45 minutes from the time of this post before you're banned for going into yet another barely readable rage.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

Gamma Akutabi said:


> I'll give you 45 minutes from the time of this post before you're banned for going into yet another barely readable rage.



That was Hiro's edit you were quoting, so do you expect a mod to ban himself?


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto admitted that Sasuke was on a completely different level. It's not that *Sasuke* wasn't willing, it's that he couldn't. At least that's what Naruto stated.



I'm guessing that you meant Naruto here?Not only was Naru *unwilling 
* to kill Sascake, he even protected him from others trying to kill him.

Link removed
Link removed


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I'm guessing that you meant Naruto here?Not only was Naru *unwilling
> * to kill Sascake, he even protected him from others trying to kill him.
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed



Kakashi didn't have the ability to kill Sasuke, it's not Sasuke he was protecting. If Naruto thought that he himself didn't stand a chance at beating Sasuke do you honestly think that he thought that Kakashi did?


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## Deshi Basara (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Kakashi didn't have the ability to kill Sasuke, it's not Sasuke he was protecting. If Naruto thought that he himself didn't stand a chance at beating Sasuke do you honestly think that he thought that Kakashi did?



Sorry but "ARE YOU GONNA KILL SASCAKE?" CAN NOT be interpreted your way.He didn't say "Are you gonna fight him?" or "Are you gonna *try* to kill him?", so your explanation makes no sense.


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## jimbob631 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Kakashi didn't have the ability to kill Sasuke, it's not Sasuke he was protecting. If Naruto thought that he himself didn't stand a chance at beating Sasuke do you honestly think that he thought that Kakashi did?



you really think Kakashi couldnt kill a blind Sasuke that Sakura was about to kill if she didnt start crying.  

I know the Sasuke fanbase has a constant hard on for Sasuke but lets use a little objective reasoning here.


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## animeguy91 (May 7, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> you really think Kakashi couldnt kill a blind Sasuke that Sakura was about to kill if she didnt start crying.
> 
> I know the Sasuke fanbase has a constant hard on for Sasuke but lets use a little objective reasoning here.



i think hes talking about b4 his eyes went bad...the begining of the fight


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## AKmyWaffle (May 7, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> you really think Kakashi couldnt kill a blind Sasuke that Sakura was about to kill if she didnt start crying.
> 
> I know the Sasuke fanbase has a constant hard on for Sasuke but lets use a little objective reasoning here.



Sasuke had an opening because he overused MS. Sakura took advantage of this, however Kakashi could not do the same since his body was weakened by MS as well. Also Kakashi did state that the kunai wouldn't have killed Sasuke. 

And it may just be a hard on, but Naruto claimed that Sasuke was on a completely different level from him. We know that Naruto had surpassed Kakashi a while back, so Sasuke was on a completely different level from Kakashi as well.

If Sasuke had pulled out Susano again or used Amaterasu, do you honestly think that Kakashi could have won?


----------



## Aleph-1 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke had an opening because he overused MS. Sakura took advantage of this, however Kakashi could not do the same since his body was weakened by MS as well. Also Kakashi did state that the kunai wouldn't have killed Sasuke.
> 
> And it may just be a hard on, but Naruto claimed that Sasuke was on a completely different level from him. We know that Naruto had surpassed Kakashi a while back, so Sasuke was on a completely different level from Kakashi as well.


It _is_ just a hard-on. Naruto admitted inferiority for at least two reasons: 1. His goal was to defeat Sasuke without killing him. If he was fighting to kill the circumstances would be different but he didn't want to kill him and still wants to avoid it happening if possible. 2. Naruto wasn't aware that Sasuke's vision is deteriorating and will continue to as long as he strains his eyes from overusing MS techs, and MS techs are some of his deadlier techniques. Kirin is very deadly, but requires prep time. Therefore Naruto didn't know that spamming MS like Sasuke's been doing is really a double-edged sword with the eye damage...otherwise Naruto might not have thought as highly of Sasuke compared to himself as he did. 



AKmyWaffle said:


> If Sasuke had pulled out Susano again or used Amaterasu, do you honestly think that Kakashi could have won?


Do you honestly think that Sasuke could pull out Susanno or Amaterasu again at that point? His stamina/chakra was low, and he looked pretty exhausted and weakened there before Madara swooped in.


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## jimbob631 (May 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Sasuke had an opening because he overused MS. Sakura took advantage of this, however Kakashi could not do the same since his body was weakened by MS as well. Also Kakashi did state that the kunai wouldn't have killed Sasuke.
> 
> And it may just be a hard on, but Naruto claimed that Sasuke was on a completely different level from him. We know that Naruto had surpassed Kakashi a while back, so Sasuke was on a completely different level from Kakashi as well.
> 
> If Sasuke had pulled out Susano again or used Amaterasu, do you honestly think that Kakashi could have won?



If Sasuke had either amaterasu or Susano kakashi would obviously lose, but Sasuke was so overtired/going blind that I don't see how Sasuke would have beaten Kakashi, even though Kakashi just used kamui.  Naruto seemed to think Kakashi could kill Sasuke, and the fact that Sakura almost stabbed him seems to support that.

The whole Sasuke is on another level is BS.  Naruto said he couldn't beat Sasuke, it doesn't mean he's on a whole other level.  Feats and how the manga has portrayed the two characters leads me to believe they are equal, especially because Naruto said the two would die if they fought each other.  I could see Sasuke maybe being a little stronger than Naruto, but not stronger by that much at all, and only for a short period when he was fighting Danzo would I admit its possible Sasuke is slightly stronger. 

Thats where I see this Sasuke hard on.  Its not unreasonable to assume the two will be equal when they fight, but Sasuke fans tend to think its outrageous to suggest such a thing.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 8, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> The whole Sasuke is on another level is BS.  Naruto said he couldn't beat Sasuke, it doesn't mean he's on a whole other level.



Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm
"I can't defeat Sasuke at his current level." ~ Naruto


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

I was under the impression that both characters felt inferior to one another, with naruto having a more prominent inferiority complex.

It was even explicitly and intricately detailed previously.

So...why the fuck is him feeling inferior part of an argument?


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

^Don't ask me, man. People doubt themselves frequently enough, and yet they actually perform better than they sometimes think. Feelings are just that....human emotions. They don't always stay true to what's real.

And plus, I really don't see how physical strength even applies here in terms of these two....Naruto wipes the floor with Sasuke in taijutsu, or at least, that is what I'm led to believe so far. Whether or not that actually happens remains to be seen.

Maybe anyone else who posts in this thread from now on, should understand that whatever they believe about what will happen in future chapters is based upon speculation, especially because twists are always possible, like Madara's most recent "omgwtf, how is Madara going through with his plan without Killer Bee and Naruto???"


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> I was under the impression that both characters felt inferior to one another, with naruto having a more prominent inferiority complex.
> 
> It was even explicitly and intricately detailed previously.
> 
> So...why the fuck is him feeling inferior part of an argument?



When did Sasuke ever implicate he felt inferior to naruto?

Please explain how you arrived at that assumption.

Especially when Naruto is implicating the opposite.

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

"So you still haven't accepted me as an equal"


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

At the rooftop back in part one?Is not really relevant anymore but i dunno


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

the last time Sasuke didn't "accept him as an equal", he actually was raging and entirely threatened. And he ran off to Orochimaru.

then when he, later, put on the forehead protector, he was confident and sure of himself fighting Naruto.

Then, after still not "accepting Naruto as an equal", he runs off and demands Itachi's eyes.

Just a simple pattern.

And, even more to the point, Naruto has felt inferior to Sasuke a number of times, even when it was unwarranted and Naruto was actually his equal, or better in some ways (with Sasuke better in others).  So "Naruto said he couldn't do it" isn't evidence, really.  At all.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> At the rooftop back in part one?Is not really relevant anymore but i dunno



We are referring to the latest encounter.

Sasuke has implicated on a number of occasions, he is no longer concerned about Naruto's power level, as it was irrelevant to his goal for the longest.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> We are referring to the latest encounter.



You asked "When has Sascake *EVER* implicate he felt inferior to naruto?"  Sorry i misunderstood ya


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## AKmyWaffle (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> the last time Sasuke didn't "accept him as an equal", he actually was raging and entirely threatened. And he ran off to Orochimaru.
> 
> then when he, later, put on the forehead protector, he was confident and sure of himself fighting Naruto.
> 
> ...



Sasuke also happened to beat the shit out of Naruto when he decided to go over and join Oro. Predicting the same outcome this time too? Glad to see you on the side of the good guys.


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## Moonraker_One (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> the last time Sasuke didn't "accept him as an equal", he actually was raging and entirely threatened. And he ran off to Orochimaru.
> 
> then when he, later, put on the forehead protector, he was confident and sure of himself fighting Naruto.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Plus, people forget that Naruto isn't a good judge of his own power at first.

Early in the series, he charged right in and frequently got overpowered because he vastly underestimated the characters.

When he was fighting Sasuke at the VotE, he thought it'd be equal and Sasuke won because of the Curse Seal.

When Sasuke met him again, he had been training under Orochimaru and Naruto hadn't received his uber training yet. Sasuke would've easily overpowered Naruto had they fought more.

Naruto is basing his current test against Sasuke on those previous incidents, rather than his battle against Pain. He's probably assuming that Sasuke has this uber-fuck powerful something because he doesn't know what Sasuke's level is.

He's expecting himself to be inferior because its what he's used to. He isn't used to showing up and being able to beat a villain mostly on his own. He's had to do a lot of crawling before he could walk, you know.

So when he says "I can't win against Sasuke," its because he's expecting Sasuke to have had a powerup given to him. Honestly, if you think about it, us fans are the same way; we've been conditioned by Kishimoto to expect powerups to be given to Sasuke rather than he train for them.


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## dungsi27 (May 8, 2011)

Hes gonna be able to keep up.This is the power between a Senju(body) vs an Uchiha(eye)


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> And, even more to the point, Naruto has felt inferior to Sasuke a number of times, even when it was unwarranted and Naruto was actually his equal, or better in some ways (with Sasuke better in others).  So "Naruto said he couldn't do it" isn't evidence, really.  At all.



When was Naruto's inferiority complex with regards to Sasuke ever unwarranted? When they were at the academy he felt inferior to Sasuke, because quite frankly he was. When they prepared to fight on the roof top however Naruto was very confident so at this point he felt he could fight Sasuke equally. Again when Naruto met Sasuke after the time skip he felt inferior again and it was justified because at this point sasuke  was stronger. So for Naruto to say Sasuke is on another level now, I think we can believe him.


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## Moonraker_One (May 8, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> When was Naruto's inferiority complex with regards to Sasuke ever unwarranted? When they were at the academy he felt inferior to Sasuke, because quite frankly he was.



Yes. That was the point; he was inferior to Sasuke and that IS WHAT MOTIVATED HIM TO GET BETTER. The inferiority complex is necessary to improve. If a person thought they were Bruce Lee, and weren't, would there be any reason to improve?



The Uchiha Hawk said:


> When they prepared to fight on the roof top however Naruto was very confident so at this point he felt he could fight Sasuke equally. Again when Naruto met Sasuke after the time skip he felt inferior again and it was justified because at this point sasuke  was stronger. So for Naruto to say Sasuke is on another level now, I think we can believe him.



When Naruto prepared to fight Sasuke on the rooftop, Kakashi sent their attacks apart. Sasuke might have almost killed Naruto with his chidori, but Sasuke would've been torn to shreds by the rasengan. He was superior at that point.

Sasuke was superior the next time they fought because he'd received training.

If Naruto is inferior, it won't be because of his physical acumen or training level, it'll be because Sasuke will be able to magically spam the same 5 moves over and over like John Cena with the infinity gauntlet.


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

Moonraker_One said:


> Exactly. Plus, people forget that Naruto isn't a good judge of his own power at first.


This is true, at least some of the time. Naruto can be cocky when he's determined, but he has underestimated his own capabilities before. I'm telling these folks, Naruto has hardly shown us what he can do in RM, like Sasuke hasn't shown us anything yet in EMS. It's hard to speculate how the battle will play out at this point, like it's too early in a tournament to know who will end up in the final championship match.



Moonraker_One said:


> Naruto is basing his current test against Sasuke on those previous incidents, rather than his battle against Pain. He's probably assuming that Sasuke has this uber-fuck powerful something because he doesn't know what Sasuke's level is.
> 
> 
> He's expecting himself to be inferior because its what he's used to. He isn't used to showing up and being able to beat a villain mostly on his own. He's had to do a lot of crawling before he could walk, you know.
> ...


Yeah, this is true. I imagine Naruto would be pretty surprised if he knew more about the conditions of some of Sasuke's battles in which he had victories (such as vs. KB).


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

Moonraker_One said:


> Yes. That was the point; he was inferior to Sasuke and that IS WHAT MOTIVATED HIM TO GET BETTER. The inferiority complex is necessary to improve. If a person thought they were Bruce Lee, and weren't, would there be any reason to improve?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't know if you realized this ,but you mostly agreed with me. The other guy had said that Naruto's inferiority complex was often unjustified, and I was arguing that it was not. When Naruto was inferior to Sasuke( i.e. in the academy days, or the start of the time skip) he knew it. And when he wasn't inferior he did not feel that way( such as the roof top battle.) Thus Naruto assessment of he and Sasuke's power can be trusted, so if he's saying that he is currently weaker than Sasuke, we should believe him.

Finally I'm not sure Naruto would have killed Sasuke during the rooftop battle. Yeah yeah the rasengan made a bigger hole in the tower ,but so what? At the begging of the VOTE fight, (before Sasuke used his new curse powers), he and naruto clashed (chidori vs rasengan) and they were evenly matched. Oh and Naruto is notorious for spamming the same moves seems odd that you would criticize Sasuke for it.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> the last time Sasuke didn't "accept him as an equal", he actually was raging and entirely threatened. And he ran off to Orochimaru.


Wasn't that in part 1? How long was that good sir?

Also you seem to be misinform on why Sasuke chose to leave Konoha.

First and foremost, Sasuke's leaving Konoha had little to nothing to do with being THREATENED by Naruto's progression.

It was his own progression in which he questioned.

Look at the events that lead up too his defection.

It was the reemergence of Itachi, that made Sasuke question his progression in the leaf. His actions against Sasuke, and his purpose reasons (as far as Sasuke knew at the time) for being there.

Itachi not only soundly defeated Sasuke without even the slightest bit of effort, he also acted as if he was there only for Naruto, and finally came the Tsukuyomi.

Sasuke became jealous of Naruto's progression only after ITACHI emerged. 

The sound 4 emerging and defeating Sasuke, couldn't have helped either.









> then when he, later, put on the forehead protector, he was confident and sure of himself fighting Naruto.


He was always confident and full of himself when fighting Naruto. He only placed the forehead protector, only after witnessing Naruto's (K0) form.

From that point forward at least up into part 2, he was willing to acknowledge him as an equal. 



> Then, after still not "accepting Naruto as an equal", he runs off and demands Itachi's eyes.


Why did he request Itachi's eyes? 

Being blind and not having access to anything sharingan related may due the trick.

What reason did Sasuke give Madara for his change of heart about Itachi's eyes?

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

"I want to DESTROY NARUTO WITH MY FULL POWER"

So my question to you good sir, is without the operation would Sasuke have access to MS?





> Just a simple pattern.


Not a simple pattern, as it you are over simplifying the reason for why Sasuke sought power.

Initially his power in comparison to Naruto was irrelevant. As his goal had nothing do with Naruto. Sasuke wanted the power to kill Itachi, and felt his progression in Konoha was too slow for his liking. Naruto's quick rise in power level, only supported his insecurities in his own growth.





> And, even more to the point, Naruto has felt inferior to Sasuke a number of times, even when it was unwarranted and Naruto was actually his equal, or better in some ways (with Sasuke better in others).  So "Naruto said he couldn't do it" isn't evidence, really.  At all.



Naruto clear admission is evidence of being inferior is evidence good sir.

He has felt that way on a number occasions, by clear sufficient evidence and his own acknowledgment.

He has felt like this the start of part 1, part 2, and again in the final acts of the manga.

His clear reason for obtaining control of the Kyubi was to fight Sasuke.

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

The difference between Sasuke and Naruto obtaining their new power up.

Sasuke needed Itachi's to cure his current predicament.

Naruto needed the Kyubi's chakara to compete against Sasuke.


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> At the begging of the VOTE fight, (before Sasuke used his new curse powers), he and naruto clashed (chidori vs rasengan) and they were evenly matched. Oh and Naruto is notorious for spamming the same moves seems odd that you would criticize Sasuke for it.


Why is it odd? When they get a new power-up, of course they think that spamming the same new powerful move is going to do the trick. They haven't had the time to build the amount of experience as say, Kakashi, and so may not always know the true extent of their capabilities with their repertoires of moves/jutsu's.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> Why is it odd? When they get a new power-up, of course they think that spamming the same new powerful move is going to do the trick.



I was saying that it was odd of him to criticize Sasuke for spamming moves, when Naruto does it as well. I agree with you that they often use spamming to test out their new moves, in fact that is what Sasuke did during the Kage Summit.


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## jimbob631 (May 8, 2011)

I just have a general question for Sasuke fans, how inferior to they feel Naruto is to Sasuke.  Zetsu did claim Naruto was stronger than Sasuke after Sasuke already awakened amaterasu and used his MS genjutsu (it might not be the same as Itachi's but he was using MS when he used genjutsu on Killer Bee).  So Naruto should be stronger than Sasuke with two of his three MS techniques.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> I just have a general question for Sasuke fans, how inferior to they feel Naruto is to Sasuke.  Zetsu did claim Naruto was stronger than Sasuke after Sasuke already awakened amaterasu and used his MS genjutsu (it might not be the same as Itachi's but he was using MS when he used genjutsu on Killer Bee).  So Naruto should be stronger than Sasuke with two of his three MS techniques.



First off that was just Zetsu's estimation and he might not have known what Sasuke was capable of. Second, at that point I don't think Sasuke had the kind of control over amaterasu that he does now. Finally I could just as easily say, "Well Naruto couldn't face Sasuke without Sage Mode". SM and Susanoo have become apart of their respective strategies now.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> First off that was just Zetsu's estimation and he might not have known what Sasuke was capable of. Second, at that point I don't think Sasuke had the kind of control over amaterasu that he does now. Finally I could just as easily say, "Well Naruto couldn't face Sasuke without Sage Mode". SM and Susanoo have become apart of their respective strategies now.



I just love that hilarious argument "bu-but Zetsu doesn't know about Amaterasu"
"lol it was just Zetsu's estimation" 

but that doesn't apply to what Naru said? Hypocrisy at it's finest 

Anyway Kirin (which Zetsu knew about when he made that statement)is better than Amaterasu anyway so what's your point?


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> I just have a general question for Sasuke fans, how inferior to they feel Naruto is to Sasuke.  Zetsu did claim Naruto was stronger than Sasuke after Sasuke already awakened amaterasu and used his MS genjutsu (it might not be the same as Itachi's but he was using MS when he used genjutsu on Killer Bee).  So Naruto should be stronger than Sasuke with two of his three MS techniques.



Didn't we go over this. Sasuke's second MS jutsu is likely Kasagutchi.

Thus at the time he only had 1/3 MS jutsu. You also ignore all the effects Susano added to his chakara.

And further more Zetsu stated MIGHT(as in he is not sure).

And what does your paragraph have to do with the argument?

MS Sasuke > SM Naruto by his own admission, and feats.


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

This discussion is so pointless it aint even funny **Lights up cigar**


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I just love that hilarious argument "bu-but Zetsu doesn't know about Amaterasu"
> "lol it was just Zetsu's estimation"
> 
> but that doesn't apply to what Naru said? Hypocrisy at it's finest
> ...



My point is this: Zetsu clearly said that Naruto MIGHT be stronger than Sauske not that he was. Naruto on the other hand said definitively that he wasn't as strong as Sasuke. Second we don't know how good of a judge Zetsu is. It's true that Naruto didn't know of all of Sasuke's ability be he is obviously a good judge because at every other point in the manga where Naruto has assessed he and Sasuke's respective powers he has been right. Thus we can trust what Naruto says on this point. Oh and is Kirin better than Amaterasu? It takes less chakra, but it is very difficult to set up, Amaterasu can be performed instantly and can be manipulated afterwards.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> My point is this: Zetsu clearly said that Naruto MIGHT be stronger than Sauske not that he was. Naruto on the other hand said definitively that he wasn't as strong as Sasuke. Second we don't know how good of a judge Zetsu is.



We know that Naru is not that good judge either.He was scared shitless of Gaara before he went on defeating him.He thought he can capture Itachi before his fight with Sascake..




> It's true that Naruto didn't know of all of Sasuke's ability be he is obviously a good judge because at every other point in the manga where Naruto has assessed he and Sasuke's respective powers he has been right. Thus we can trust what Naruto says on this point.



Oh, is that right?Lets just ignore the fact that the previous times Naru actually witnessed Sascake's power?Yeah lets do that


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## Face (May 8, 2011)

Both SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are equal. If Naruto was inferior he would not have said that he and Sasuke would die if they were to fight each other. When Neji asked him why he didn't finish off Sasuke. Naruto said that that he can't defeat Sasuke at his current level, which is odd when you consider how weak Sasuke was at that point. Even Sakura could have killed him.

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm 


Sakura realized he was lying since they were both there. She also has a flashback of what Naruto said to Sasuke. Clearly he was using that as an excuse to not fight Sasuke.

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> We know that Naru is not that good judge either.He was scared shitless of Gaara before he went on defeating him.He thought he can capture Itachi before his fight with Sascake..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When did Naruto think he could capture Itachi? I honestly don't remember that. And Naruto had every right to be scared shitless of Gaara, he was a complete psycho radiating blood lust, Naruto had never faced someone like this in a one on one battle. Once Naruto got over his fear he became confident.  Also at that point Naruto wasn't sure if he could summon the boss toad or if he would be able to draw upon the ninetails again. 

Finally when Sasuke and Naruto met at the start of the time skip he barely saw Sasuke do anything, in fact the only thing he would have been able to see from that fight was that Sasuke was faster (which he had always been) yet he was still able to assess that Sasuke was stronger. Oh and I almost forgot something clearly happened when Naruto and Sasuke clashed
Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm
Naruto seems to have been able to see something relevant here.


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## TheWon (May 8, 2011)

Face said:


> Both SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are equal. If Naruto was inferior he would not have said that he and Sasuke would die if they were to fight each other. When Neji asked him why he didn't finish off Sasuke. Naruto said that that he can't defeat Sasuke at his current level, which is odd when you consider how weak Sasuke was at that point. Even Sakura could have killed him.
> 
> Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm
> 
> ...




Just wanted to add to link you just posted. I think it has to do more with their current mental state. Naruto knows at that moment Sasuke has no problem killing him. Naruto on the other hand does which would put him at a disadvantage in a fight to the death. Think about DBZ for a moment when Vegeta got turned into a Majin. The sole purpose for that was to make him the way he was. When he was a ruthless killer or even Buu for example. Why is Kid Buu the most dangerous form of Buu even though it one of the weakest. The killer instinct that form has! Maybe Naruto feels he needs to be stronger to have the power not to kill Sasuke. As in so much stronger he can take him out without killing him. If the fight now at near equal levels it just going end with one of them dieing. Which would be Naruto because of some lame ass thought that he can save Sasuke. Where Sasuke would gut him with no problem or even play him to get in close just to kill him.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

Face said:


> Both SM Naruto and MS Sasuke are equal. If Naruto was inferior he would not have said that he and Sasuke would die if they were to fight each other. When Neji asked him why he didn't finish off Sasuke. Naruto said that that he can't defeat Sasuke at his current level, which is odd when you consider how weak Sasuke was at that point. Even Sakura could have killed him.
> 
> Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm


Your assessment has already been addressed. You are flawed in your first assessment, as Naruto's "Will die when they fight" doesn't pertain to the current predicament. When they fight could easily be implicated to their next encounter. 

Your second assessment is wrong. As it wasn't Neji's question Naruto was responding too. 

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

Sakura already informed Neji that Sasuke wasn't alone.

Kiba change the subject matter out right.

His new argument can be summed up as. Pain > Sasuke. Naruto defeated Pain. Therefore Naruto > Sasuke. And Naruto corrected him.

Please read the manga.






> Sakura realized he was lying since they were both there. She also has a flashback of what Naruto said to Sasuke. Clearly he was lying to them as an excuse to let Sasuke go.
> 
> Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm


[/QUOTE]
Actually Sakura doesn't implicate he was lying, as she asked herself the question "Naruto what are you hiding"

Obviously it was connected to Naruto's implication that their is more to Sasuke's action than they know. This makes sense, as Sakura was well aware of Naruto's former statement to Sasuke. However she is clueless as too why Sasuke has chose his former path.

"Naruto what are you hiding" more than likely had more to do with "I'll tell you when the time is right" than his previous statement.

Also how would Sakura know Naruto was lying? She has zero knowledge of any of their powers.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> When did Naruto think he could capture Itachi?





Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm


"I've gotta capture you so i can find Sascake" 

Naru wasn't going: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAH this guy is out my league.I stand no chance " even though Itachi was at that point>>>>>>>>>>>>>Naruto

And remember how Naru was also "confident" the first time he met Oro?




> Finally when Sasuke and Naruto met at the start of the time skip he barely saw Sasuke do anything, in fact the only thing he would have been able to see from that fight was that Sasuke was faster (which he had always been) yet he was still able to assess that Sasuke was stronger.




Dude how about you read the manga, k?Yes Naru only saw Sascake's speed  that's right.You conveniently forget however how everyone was so amazed with it and was the main topic even *after* the encounter.

Sakura was so amazed by it that she went on to saying: "There is no possible way he can be that fast unless he took drugs"


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm
> 
> 
> "I've gotta capture you so i can find Sascake"
> ...


 
Heres the difference. When Naruto fought oro and Itachi, at no point did he ever think that he was on equal footing with either of those guys however he had a goal (such as finding sasuke) and was determined to accomplish it regardless of who was standing in his way( You could say he was reckless). In the case of Itachi he was confident that he could at least counter Itachi's illusions ,but never made any statements like "I'm confident I can defeat Itachi myself". With Sasuke he made very definite statements about their respective powers. Also Sakura's comment about Sasuke using drugs came AFTER Naruto fell to his knees and started crying about how weak he was compared to Sasuke. It's pretty clear that at that point he already knew he was weaker than Sasuke. Naruto had no idea Sasuke had taken drugs and even if he had that still would not have given him an accurate idea of just how strong Sasuke was, so whats your point?


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## Face (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Your assessment has already been addressed. You are flawed in your first assessment, as Naruto's "Will die when they fight" doesn't pertain to the current predicament. When they fight could easily be implicated to their next encounter.
> 
> Your second assessment is wrong. As it wasn't Neji's question Naruto was responding too.
> 
> ...



I have read the manga. Kiba didn't change the subject at all. He was still talking about Team 7 fight with Sasuke. That's why he said "he couldn't have slipped away." Kiba was still talking about the same thing Neji was. Also how could Sasuke have put up a fight when his eyes were completely useless?



IpHr0z3nI said:


> Actually Sakura doesn't implicate he was lying, as she asked herself the question "Naruto what are you hiding"
> 
> Obviously it was connected to Naruto's implication that their is more to Sasuke's action than they know. This makes sense, as Sakura was well aware of Naruto's former statement to Sasuke. However she is clueless as too why Sasuke has chose his former path.
> 
> ...




She was there when Naruto was fighting Pain. She should have known how strong he is.


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Just ask yourselves the following questions and your soul will be at peace:

1. Could have Naruto/Kakashi kill Sasuke at the time of the encounter?
2. What EXACTLY did Naruto base his assumption on that he wasnt on Sasuke's level?
3. What fueled Naruto to master Kyuubi? Meeting Sasuke or the meeting with the toad?
4. Is fighting Sasuke the ONLY or primary reason he seeked to master Kyuubi?
5. Sasuke has/had hype in the Narutoverse for killing Orochimaru, Itachi & Deidara...Naruto had the hype of defeating the leader of those men and Sasuke knows that. So who should really be feeling inferior, Naruto or Sasuke?
 Booooooya!


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> n the case of Itachi he was confident that he could at least counter Itachi's illusions ,



That tells you exactly how good judge of strength Naru is.




> n the case of Itachi he was confident that he could at least counter Itachi's illusions ,



Naru said that he "*I*" has to capture Itachi.





> Naruto had no idea Sasuke had taken drugs and even if he had that still would not have given him an accurate idea of just how strong Sasuke was, *so whats your point?*




I dunno.. What's yours?I have no idea what you are going on about anymore  You even started contradicting yourself.. first you say that Naru only saw Sascake's speed when stated that he's weaker and now:



> Also Sakura's comment about Sasuke using drugs came AFTER Naruto fell to his knees and started crying about how weak he was compared to Sasuke.



Dude  At that point Naru have seen not only Sascake's speed but also him suppressing The Kyuubi, his new chidori moves with which Sascake pwned Yamato, Sakura and Sai.Of course Naru knows that he isn't stronger than those 3 put together at that point so he will logically conclude that he was weaker than Sascake.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> That tells you exactly how good judge of strength Naru is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, you dont know what I'm talking about yet you've been arguing with me so pationately. I've stated my point several times now, that Naruto has previously been able to assess he and Sasuke's power levels, and that he is usually pretty acurate. Like I said Naruto was confident he could avoid Itachi's sharingan illusion, thats it, not that he could beat him ( and if I'm not mistaken it was Itachi's finger genjutsu that trapped him). And saying I have to capture you doesnt mean I know I can beat you.

In the sasuke fight, Sasuke did not own everyone, Yamato wasn't being serious, and sakura didn't fight. I also brought up the fact that Naruto seemed to realize something the last time he and Sasuke clashed.


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## TheWon (May 8, 2011)

Don't you think that Naruto was estimating Sasuke potential? When Naruto, and Sasuke clashed that last time. Naruto just found out that Sasuke just killed Danzo, and he knew he attack the Kages at the conference. You have one guy who has been fighting the entire time. Goes head to head with another guy who was just gathering Senju chakra and is totally fresh. Still their clash once again was a stalemate. If anything Naruto should have won the clash just on that. Being the fresher of the two, and having the most power at the time. Yet he didn't so maybe Naruto feels that if Sasuke was fresh he would have lost. If Naruto was 100%, and Sasuke was only at 50%. Then maybe Naruto feels his current cap is higher then his.


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

15 comments...interesting.

Just like it's interesting that even so many years after Naruto started, Uchiha fans still, for some reason, say that it is only natural for Sasuke to try to advance his Uchiha bloodline, but somehow it is a lesser thing for a Jinchuuriki to pursue his Bijuu's chakra.

anyway, 4am, and this part of the conversation is done.  People who say that Naruto is a reliable witness for his own strength in comparison to Sasuke simply, frankly, are wrong.

Though I will answer one question:

Naruto was shown to be equivalent to Sasuke in deed several times, if not superior, while still maintaining his  belief that Sasuke was superior, or that he was submissive towards Sasuke (such as needing only his approval).  Such times include the Chuunin Fight, Sasuke's re-awakening and the Sasuke Rescue arc, the Orochimaru fight (granted, with Kyuubi chakra, but....you literally can't begrudge a Jinchuuriki for using it), and even recently with SM Naruto, prior to even RM (though, now...he's just faster than sasuke flat-out, but that's not part of this argument at all).



Oh, and look, Scott Pilgrim is on TV.  Better than this.

though lolol at the thought that Sasuke stomped on Naruto at VotE


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

Face said:


> I have read the manga. Kiba didn't change the subject at all. He was still talking about Team 7 fight with Sasuke. That's why he said "he couldn't have slipped away." Kiba was still talking about the same thing Neji was. Also how could Sasuke have put up a fight when his eyes were completely useless.


Actually he did, as he proposed a different argument from Neji's. Kiba new question never implicated that he should have defeated Sasuke right the and there. It only implicates that he could. 

Notice his argument. "Naruto you're as strong as they come. You are a legend they guy who defeated pain" "Sasuke wouldn't have stood a chance" This does not necessarily incorporate their previous encounter, but the ecounter in general.

Naruto's next actions implement that he did not believe his current power level was sufficient enough to compete against Sasuke.

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

"I need the Kyubi's chakara to fight Sasuke"

Further evidence that he meant exactly what he told Kiba and the gang.

Why do you and other individuals ignore the obvious.  








> She was there when Naruto was fighting Pain. She should have known how strong he is.


She only got a glimpse as the fight changed locations, further more she did not witness Sasuke's power thus regardless your assessment fails.

More likely than not her "Naruto what are you hiding"

Pertains to Naruto's hint that he knows the truth behind Sasuke's current rampage.

Remember this is the second time Naruto has hinted he is hiding something in regards to Sasuke. 

The first time.

Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

The second time
Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

The third time
Naruto's chakra is described as bright and warm

That is three times, Naruto has hinted he knows something about Sasuke's situations and is not sharing. Sakura is certainly not dumb, she is speculating on what Naruto is holding back in regards to Sasuke. 

Sasuke sudden decision to attack Konoha, his conversation with team 7. Sakura is obviously homing in on the fact Kakashi and Naruto are hiding info.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> 15 comments...interesting.
> 
> *Just like it's interesting that even so many years after Naruto started, Uchiha fans still, for some reason, say that it is only natural for Sasuke to try to advance his Uchiha bloodline, but somehow it is a lesser thing for a Jinchuuriki to pursue his Bijuu's chakra.*
> 
> ...



That argument runs both ways. Plenty of Naruto fans feel its okay for Naruto to draw upon the nine tails power yet criticize Sasuke for advancing his bloodline or using the cursemark.

And I don't agree that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke during the chunin fight, but I guess it depends on how you look at it. Naruto still wasn't able to call forth the nine tails chakra at will nor was he able to summon boss toad at will. He was still shaky with both of those moves while Sasuke had complete control over his ability. So Naruto was right to feel inferior after he saw Sasuke whip out the chidori against Gaara. I also feel sasuke was stronger during the oro fight.

But anyways, have fun watching Scott Pilgrim, great movie.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> 15 comments...interesting.
> 
> Just like it's interesting that even so many years after Naruto started, Uchiha fans still, for some reason, say that it is only natural for Sasuke to try to advance his Uchiha bloodline, but somehow it is a lesser thing for a Jinchuuriki to pursue his Bijuu's chakra.
> 
> ...


You must also acknowledge, that Naruto on average has indded been shown to be inferior to Sasuke, while acknowledgin his belief in such.

There were only a few occasions where Naruto was ever equal or Sasuke's superior.  Sasuke was superior in part 1, up until the gara battle. Naruto was superior up until the VOE battle. 

Part 2. Sasuke was superior to Naruto, the entire time up until the acquisition of SM, while Sasuke actually lost power. Sasuke regained the edge with Master of MS. 

As you can see Naruto's time being equal and or superior to Sasuke has been little. Sasuke spent the majority of the manga as Naruto's superior, especially in part 2. 

You want follow suit with that argument, then acknowledge it is a two way street good sir. 

Naruto in the Orochimaru fight doesn't count because as you implicated, as the manga stated. Naruto using the Kyubi chakara without control, is not his power.

Besides Sasuke had the ability to suppress the Kyubi, so it would have been mute in front of his eyes. 





> though lolol at the thought that Sasuke stomped on Naruto at VotE


He did certainly best him, and has increased the power gap significantly going into part 2, and throughout a large portion of part 2. SM closed the gap, but Sasuke has received major power ups sense then.

Further more I don't see how in SM; Naruto could deal with anything MS related. SM adds nothing to his defense against a potent MS user.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> Lol, you dont know what I'm talking about yet you've been arguing with me so pationately. I've stated my point several times now, that Naruto has previously been able to assess he and Sasuke's power levels, and that he is usually pretty acurate.



Yes and like i said, Naru knew that Sascake is more powerful than him at the time *because he saw him in action.
*



> Like I said Naruto was confident he could avoid Itachi's sharingan illusion, thats it, not that he could beat him ( and if I'm not mistaken it was Itachi's finger genjutsu that trapped him). And saying I have to capture you doesnt mean I know I can beat you.



Uh, whatever  Since apparently Naru is such a good judge of strenght he should've known that he *stands no chance in hell* against Itachi.At that point Itachi can murder him in less than a minute and there's no saving Sascake then  But Naruto was going "I've gotta capture you" lol


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

Quick note: Naruto was also roflstomping Orochimaru while still in control.  It only got truly ridiculous when he went MK.

1 tail bitch0-smacked him, ripped off his  face and threw him over a mile.

He also, at some point between 1 and 3, ripped off Orochimaru's arm and was almost entirely untouched.  While Orochimaru could heal himself, he was clearly losing the exchange, as any not-orochimaru shinobi  who lost his arm...would be missing an arm.  


And my point wasn't to say Naruto was better than Sasuke more often than not, my point was that even when Naruto was better than Sasuke, he still sees himself as inferior, meaning he can often be inaccurate.

Also, potential SM boosts to fighting MS are, at least in part, being discussed in other threads, such as potential genjutsu defenses and other things, such as speed boosts to help counteract susanno arrows and amaterasu, or various other things.


Oh, and he just got a date with Ramona.

nighties.


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## jimbob631 (May 8, 2011)

@ IpHr0z3nI Wait what, how is it not Naruto's power?  If Sasuke was the one who turned into a mini fox and wasn't in full control im pretty sure you would be arguing it counts as Sasuke's power.

Edit:  Naruto was superior to Sasuke for the majority of part 1.  Naruto beat Haku, Kiba, Neji, fought Orochimaru while Sasuke hid and hit Kabuto with a rasengan.  Sasuke's best feat was beating Naruto at which point he was slightly stronger than Naruto.  The fox counts as Naruto's power.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> *Further more I don't see how in SM; Naruto could deal with anything MS related. SM adds nothing to his defense against a potent MS user.*



Zetsu implied that SM Naruto is stronger than Sascake (pre-Susano and maybe Amaterasu).You yourself state that SM Naru is stronger than Sascake pre-MS.So..


If Naru can deal with pre-MS Sascake's Kirin i don't see how he can't deal with Amaterasu and Susano's arrows.. and about Susano, The frogs can hold it off (like Gamabunta hold The Kyubi for Minato) while SM Naru is trowing rasen shurikens at it's back.




> Naruto using the Kyubi chakara without control, is not his power.



Sorry but if frogs and other summons *who are not under* their summoners control *and choose on their own free will to help*, count as part of the summoner's power, so does The Kyuubi.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Yes and like i said, Naru knew that Sascake is more powerful than him at the time *because he saw him in action.
> *
> 
> 
> ...



I already explained this in an earlier post, but basically Naruto is reckless and hell bent on saving Sasuke, even if it means stupidly fighting someone he  he has no chance against. He never made any comments about being on equal footing with Itachi. 

I also argued that in Naruto and Sasuke's first post time skip battle that Naruto didn't really see much of sasuke's ability ,but was able to asses how strong he was in relation with him. Really the biggest thing he saw sasuke do was supress the nine tails and that was with Naruto already being exhausted and already being hesitant about using the nine tails power as it was. I also believe that when Sasuke and Naruto clashed the last time, Naruto was able to see something, thats what the manga seemed to imply.


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Quick note: Naruto was also roflstomping Orochimaru while still in control.  It only got truly ridiculous when he went MK.
> 
> 1 tail bitch0-smacked him, ripped off his  face and threw him over a mile.
> 
> ...



And my point was that every time Naruto has believed he was inferior than Sasuke, he actually was. There were times when Naruto was stronger and Naruto still yearned for Sasuke's acknowledgement ,but thats a whole other issue.

lol its late, but your making me wanna watch Scott pilgrim.


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## Jeαnne (May 8, 2011)

its funny how you assume that EMS will not be special, when MS alone has a super defensive jutsu like susanoo ^^


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> I also argued that in Naruto and Sasuke's first post time skip battle that Naruto didn't really see much of sasuke's ability ,but was able to asses how strong he was in relation with him.



Sascake's- speed that everyone was so amazed with and couldn't believe, Chidori Nagashi- that pwned Naru and Sai simultaneously, suppressing The Kyuubi-which amazed The Kyuubi itself, the unblockable chidori swrods or whatever, is not enough for ya?Cool whatever  


Anyway while was looking through the manga for that battle i found another thing thats interesting:

Link removed

Naru says that HE WILL DEFEAT, Oro.But yeah, he is a great judge of strength, alright


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Sascake's- speed that everyone was so amazed with and couldn't believe, Chidori Nagashi- that pwned Naru and Sai simultaneously, suppressing The Kyuubi-which amazed The Kyuubi itself, the unblockable chidori swrods or whatever, is not enough for ya?Cool whatever
> 
> 
> Anyway while was looking through the manga for that battle i found another thing thats interesting:
> ...



Well he HAD just finished kicking Oros ass on the bridge. But anyways of course Naruto was gonna say that here, he was determined to save Sasuke. What was he gonna say? "No your right Oro I will just go home without Sasuke." Your probably going to call BS here ,but I think theres a huge difference between defiantly telling an enemy "I will surely beat/stop you" and later telling your friend or your self that. If Sakura had asked Naruto point blank prior to this "Do you think your stronger than Oro?" What do you think he would have said? Probably something like "No, but I dont care I will bring Sasuke back no matter what!" Naruto is often reckless.

As for your other point, Sasuke did show a few of his abilities, but hardly anywhere near his full strength. the chidori variants? I don't see any reason why Naruto would believe he couldnt counter those. The most impressive thing was negating the nine tails chakra when Naruto was already hesitant and exhausted. Yes the nine tails was impressed and it was an impressive feat, but could he do that against a healthy Naruto who was fighting him back. In other words I dont think that in itself was enough for Naruto to feel he couldn't beat him.

And again I bring up this clash:
Link removed
Naruto, I think was able to assess Sasuke's strength here.

Also just curious why do you call him Sascake? Lol I've seen him called alot of things but never that.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

The Uchiha Hawk said:


> If Sakura had asked Naruto point blank prior to this "Do you think your stronger than Oro?" What do you think he would have said? Probably something like "No, but I dont care I will bring Sasuke back no matter what!" Naruto is often reckless.



I dunno.To me it's pretty clear that Naru was confident that he can take on Oro 




> *As for your other point, Sasuke did show a few of his abilities, but hardly anywhere near his full strength. the chidori variants? I don't see any reason why Naruto would believe he couldnt counter those.* The most impressive thing was negating the nine tails chakra when Naruto was already hesitant and exhausted. Yes the nine tails was impressed and it was an impressive feat, but could he do that against a healthy Naruto who was fighting him back. In other words I dont think that in itself was enough for Naruto to feel he couldn't beat him.




The chidori variants- some which *unblockable* + Sascake's speed?I don't see how Naru could've dealt with them at the time.



> And again I bring up this clash:
> Link removed
> Naruto, I think was able to assess Sasuke's strength here.



Maybe it was just Naru finally  realizing that what everybody was telling him was true?Maybe he saw Sascake's darkness, that he is beyond saving yada yada yada..   a zillion things  I don't have time to speculate on that as well..




> Also just curious why do you call him Sascake? Lol I've seen him called alot of things but never that.



For the lulz  I think is funny and makes me laugh.It's not just me, makes other people smile as well.I just love to make people happy


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## The Uchiha Hawk (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I dunno.To me it's pretty clear that Naru was confident that he can take on Oro
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*

How would Naruto have delt with it you say? Why the same way Naruto deals with everything, spamming clones. As for Oro, I still believe Naruto was being defiant and not giving up like always, hes not an idiot, just reckless. He knows how strong Oro is.

And as for the clash, I still believe what I said earlier ,but I digress. Its late and I'm hella tired. And seeing "Sascake" did make me laugh the first time I saw you write it so mission accomplished lol.*


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

Come on now, the Naru that met Sascake that day was not significantly stronger than the Naru who got defeated by Sascake at VOTE.How do you expect him to compete with VOTE Sascake + the speed and chidori upgrades?


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Zetsu implied that SM Naruto is stronger than Sascake (pre-Susano and maybe Amaterasu).*You yourself state that SM Naru is stronger than Sascake pre-MS.*So..


But aren't we talking about Full MS Sasuke?

Your argument doesn't make sense, Narutoantard guy whose name I cannot understand.




> If Naru can deal with pre-MS Sascake's Kirin i don't see how he can't deal with Amaterasu and Susano's arrows.. and about Susano, The frogs can hold it off (like Gamabunta hold The Kyubi for Minato) while SM Naru is trowing rasen shurikens at it's back.


Naruto can deal with Kirin? How did you fathom that good sir?

You make the assumption that being better than someone implicates you can tank their techniques. MS Sauke is better than SM Naruto, but would lol at anyone suggesting he cold tank FRS bare chest.

Kirin requires prep time, I am assuming SM Naruto would be able to deal with Sasuke before Kirin is ready.

The frogs can do what? News flash Gamabunta as well as all boss summons, have been treated like fodder infront of real shinobi.

Really how is Gamabunta supposed to hold off Susano? 






> Sorry but if frogs and other summons *who are not under* their summoners control *and choose on their own free will to help*, count as part of the summoner's power, so does The Kyuubi.


First and foremost the Kyubi is not a summoned. Secondly what is Naruto doing while the Kyubi is taken over?

Secondly, I wasn't the person who stated the Kyubi "Using Naruto like a skeleton" was not Naruto's power. Yamato was.

Link removed

So please before trying to debate with me, the issue of Naruto using the Kyubi is his power. Make sure it is not already disproved by the manga.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

-Doesn't Kirin require just to shoot a few fireballs into the sky?LOL if Sascake can't do that before Naru defeats him 

-The same way Gamabunta hold off the Kyuubi?

Link removed

And i didn't say that Gamabunta will be alone with Susano.I meant the other frogs as well.

-Naru *chooses* to release the fox.Doesn't matter if he summons it or not.

And *Akamaru * (Kiba's dog) was stated IN THE MANGA to be part of his power even though Kiba doesn't summon it.


-Manga has not disproved shit.

"The Kyuubi's power is not your TRUE strength." Saying that something of someone's arsenal is not their true power doesn't mean, that something is not theirs 


And The Frogs strength is not Naru's either


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> @ IpHr0z3nI Wait what, how is it not Naruto's power?  If Sasuke was the one who turned into a mini fox and wasn't in full control im pretty sure you would be arguing it counts as Sasuke's power.


Oh I don't know jimbob631, maybe because the manga states it is not.

Link removed

But let's disregard manga cannon for a sec, and analyze what you are implicating. 

You are only making this claim, as you are ignorant of the details on how the Kyubi taking over Naruto, actually works.

Naruto is no longer in control, after the 4th tail emerges. It is not merely Naruto using the Kyubi's chakara, it is the Kyubi using Naruto's body.

Link removed

(Knowledge is power my friend, and once again I have the manga statement to support my argument to a T.

As I tell others, as I am telling you my friend. PLEASE READ THE MANGA.)

How is it Naruto's power at this point? How is he contributing to the current power the KYUBI IS DISPLAYING? I doubt Naruto would choose to harm his friends? 

Naruto is not even conscience in that state, so I ask you again how is it Naruto's power?





> Edit:  Naruto was superior to Sasuke for the majority of part 1.  Naruto beat Haku, Kiba, Neji, fought Orochimaru while Sasuke hid and hit Kabuto with a rasengan.  Sasuke's best feat was beating Naruto at which point he was slightly stronger than Naruto.  The fox counts as Naruto's power.


Haku was a duel effort, if I recall it was Sasuke who through himself in front of the needles meant for Naruto.

Kiba wasn't stronger than Sasuke, good sir. 

Neji may not have been stronger than Sasuke either, at the time of the chunnin exams.

Sasuke fought Oro as well, please go look at the manga/anime. Yes Naruto had the guts initially, but he was quickly dismissed from the battle, and Sasuke then took over.

Hitting Kabuto with rasengan in that position means nothing; Sasuke could have hit him in that position with a chidori.

Your argument is one of who had more fights, not who was stronger. As defeating Kiba, Neji, Haku had nothing to do with being stronger than Sasuke. Sasuke has never faced Kiba, Neji, and both lost against Oro good sir.

Sasuke was superior up until the chunnin exams. And Naruto's win over Gara had little do with strength, more so than with having the tools to compete against full Gara.

Let's get the details of the Gara battle straight good sir. Sasuke actually defeated Gara at the chunnin exams. He was low on chakara, and wounded by Sasuke (which prevented him from transforming). If I recall Gara was unconscious for a period of time, post battle with Sasuke. 

He was then carried by Temari, and gather chakara in the process. Sasuke who was not as gifted in the chakara department, and wounded as well from the previous encounter(somewhat) had to then give chase. 

By the time Sasuke caught up with Gara, he was already below half of his chakara, and the CS would soon emerge to prevent him from moving. This is not to say he could have competed against Fully transformed Gara, as that is not the case. I am just pointing out the misconception that he lost Gara out right, which is a lie.

Naruto had Gamabunta, who only helped him because of Gamatastu, gamakichi's request. Thus he had the tools to compete against something of that size.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> Haku was a duel effort, if I recall it was Sasuke who through himself in front of the needles meant for Naruto.



Doesn't matter.Once Naru got into Kyuubi mode he literally wiped the floor with Haku.That's not something Sascake could have done in Naru's place.Or even stand a chance.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> -Doesn't Kirin require just to shoot a few fireballs into the sky?LOL if Sascake can't do that before Naru defeats him


For the set up yes, but if I recall it takes some times for the clouds to form. 

In that time frame, I don't see how Sasuke could deal with the physical advantage a SM Naruto has.




> -The same way Gamabunta hold off the Kyuubi?
> 
> Link removed


He didn't hold him off for long, but lets look to see how Gamabunta performed when he didn't get the drop.

Link removed

Link removed

Can say owned?





> And i didn't say that Gamabunta will be alone with Susano.I meant the other frogs as well.


What other frogs? We have only seen Naruto summon Gamabunta? As I told you before (you didn't think I would let you slide now did you) the burden of proof is upon you to prove that he could summon more than just Gamabunta?

Please do not give Naruto someone else feats. 



> -Naru *chooses* to release the fox.Doesn't matter if he summons it or not.


I could have sworn it is triggered by emotions? Much like it did vs. the battle against Pain. After Naruto swore to rely upon his own power.




> And *Akamaru * (Kiba's dog) was stated IN THE MANGA to be part of his power even though Kiba doesn't summon it.


Akamaru and the Kyubi are not the same good sir. I don't see Akumaru taking over Kiba's body. I don't see Kiba having no free will, with Akamaru's present. I don't see Akamaru using Kiba as a skeleton. 

Give it up good sir, you have lost this argument. It's bad enough you are arguing against someone who has clearly more knowledge about the manga than yourself; now you are arguing manga cannon?

Really do you even believe what you are typing? 






> -Manga has not disproved shit.
> 
> "The Kyuubi's power is not your TRUE strength." Saying that something of someone's arsenal is not their true power doesn't mean, that something is not theirs


Wait what? Isn't that exactly what it means? 

My friend you need to get a clue, and get one fast, as you now arguing against manga cannon.

Link removed

Naruto is neither in control, much less conscience. It is Naruto being used in this state, not the other way around. 

Naruto has no merit is his form of his own, therefore it doesn't count his power. How can something be considered your power, if you are not even conscience when it is happening? When you are not making the decision on your actions, strategy, etc. etc.? 

If the Kyubi was trully Naruto's power in that state, he wouldn't be trying to "to take control of this thing" right now.

Link removed

Please stop responding to me, if you are going to argue with sheer disregard of manga cannon, as it is no point in even arguing. If you are not willing to listen to manga cannon, you are damn sure are not going to listen to me. 




> And The Frogs strength is not Naru's either


 

I doubt Naruto is unconscious, while the frogs are fighting.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Doesn't matter.Once Naru got into Kyuubi mode he literally wiped the floor with Haku.That's not something Sascake could have done in Naru's place.Or even stand a chance.



If I recall he wouldn't have had the chance, had Sasuke not intercepted Haku's needles?:ho

Link removed


And Sasuke, was slowly but surely. Gaining the edge in the battle against Haku, thus is why Haku resorted into attacking a defenseless Naruto.

Link removed

Every entry into your post count, you display your lack of manga knowledge. It's sad when I can prove you wrong, with a simple panel. Nice try though.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> Give it up good sir, you have lost this argument. It's bad enough you are arguing against someone who has clearly more knowledge about the manga than yourself; now you are arguing manga cannon?
> 
> Really do you even believe what you are typing?




:rofl


*Please keep it up because i need my daily laugh.Next time all emoticons post  You're doing a great job  Never learn do ya?*




> For the set up yes, but if I recall it takes some times for the clouds to form.
> 
> In that time frame, I don't see how Sasuke could deal with the physical advantage a SM Naruto has.




-Pre-MS Sascake can't keep with Naru for a few minutes with his amazing speed and shenanigan prediction?lol 




> What other frogs? We have only seen Naruto summon Gamabunta? As I told you before (you didn't think I would let you slide now did you) the burden of proof is upon you to prove that he could summon more than just Gamabunta?
> 
> Please do not give Naruto someone else feats.



*Please don't waste my time with that **** Next time ignored or just emoticon.I give you a fair warning and don't give a crap anymore.
*





> *I could have sworn it is triggered by emotions?* Much like it did vs. the battle against Pain. After Naruto swore to rely upon his own power.



ORLY? I could've sworn that Naru stated himself that he allowed The Kyuubi to take control:

Link removed

BLAH, BLAH BLAH, Naru is unconscious when Kyuubi takes control, blah blah  blah

If Naru summons Gamabunta and then is knocked unconscious by his opponent or Naru just beaten and uses his last bit of strenght to summon Gamabunta and then loose consciousness, Gamabunta is no longer part of his power?Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


Don't worry i'll stop responding to you because i have things to do but i'll look at your posts for a good laugh anyway


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

SM Naruto is stronger then Sasuke according to Zetsu and Sasuke didnt deny it either, Zetsu knew that Sasuke fought the 8 tails which is 1tail less then Kyuubi . Also Sasuke didnt believe MS was enough to defeat base/SM Naruto so he asked Madara for the EMS to be sure he can beat Naruto.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> If I recall he wouldn't have had the chance, had Sasuke not intercepted Haku's needles?:ho
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



LOL, as i said Sascake can't do what Naru did to Haku.At that point he is not even close to being able of stomping Haku like Naru did.But good job of boring me with so much irrelevant ****


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> :rofl
> 
> 
> *Please keep it up because i need my daily laugh.Next time all emoticons post  You're doing a great job  Never learn do ya?*


I guess your attempt to utilize humor to get yourself out of bad position or avoid responding directly to an argument you clearly do not have a real response too is rather humors.










> -Pre-MS Sascake can't keep with Naru for a few minutes with his amazing speed and shenanigan prediction?lol


SM Naruto has amazing speed? 

I've seem have missed that.

And before linking the blitzing of Asura, please do not bother, as I have pointed out the flaws in that assessment. 








> *Please don't waste my time with that **** Next time ignored or just emoticon.I give you a fair warning and don't give a crap anymore.
> *


Then you don't need to bring it into the discussion. I am not going to budge on my assessment, unless you provide clear manga evidence that disproves otherwise. 







> ORLY? I could've sworn that Naru stated himself that he allowed The Kyuubi to take control:
> 
> Link removed



Why do you continue to make yourself sound more foolish. Read that page thoroughly for a second.

"It is true, when I fought Oro........................"

This has no baring on what happened against Pain.

His willingness to let him control him in THAT particular situation, still doesn't make it his power.




> BLAH, BLAH BLAH, Naru is unconscious when Kyuubi takes control, blah blah  blah


Disregarding manga cannon again? You seem to be making a habit of this.



> If Naru summons Gamabunta and then is knocked unconscious by his opponent or Naru just beaten and uses his last bit of strenght to summon Gamabunta and then loose consciousness, Gamabunta is no longer part of his power?Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


No good sir, as Gamabunta being a summoned was called fourth prior to his battle with Naruto.

The Kyubi is no a summon, it's emergence to help Naruto post the 4 tails equals him being unconscious.  This argument is no different than why the Kyubi's actions against Minato, could not be accredited to Madara. Naruto like Madara in that situation was not in control .

Your argument doesn't make sense and you seem to be avoiding the elephant in the room, which is the pages flat out stating your argument is wrong.

As I said before, if you are going to continue to deny manga cannon we need not argue. 




> Don't worry i'll stop responding to you because i have things to do but look at your posts for a good laugh anyway



You will stop responding, because obviously it is rather silly to continue to argue against manga cannon.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> LOL, as i said Sascake can't do what Naru did to Haku.At that point he is not even close to being able of stomping Haku like Naru did.But good job of boring me with so much irrelevant ****



What did Naru do to Haku? Defeat him? I pointed a page that flat out implicated Sasuke was gaining the upper hand.

And Naruto didn't stop Haku, that would be like arguing Sasuke stomped the Hachibi with Amaterasu. Sure they were able to end the battle with their respective jutsu, but this doesn't omit the obvious help they had to get to that position.


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## SageRafa (May 8, 2011)

What ? if Kyuubi is not Naruto's power than Sharingan is not Sasuke's power 

If you have something * sealed and trapped * inside you , of course it's part of your power ..

Even if you don't control it completely , it's using * your * body .. You're are the medium and you have the bijuu sealed inside yourself , of course * it's your power * ..

Now if you can or can't control it it's different .. But just because he doesn't control it doesn't mean it's not his power .. As we know the Kyuubi chakra was always mixing with Naruto's normal chakra , so if he has Kyuubi's chakra in his normal Chakra-Pool  it's his  f*cking power ..

C'mon trying to take Kyuubi of Naruto , you would have to be on another series , because without Kyuubi he would have some good chakra control like his father , so he could learn another different jutsus , he would have discovered his elements sooner, etc etc .. If you take Kyuubi off , you only can speculate what was gonna happen .. So as in the manga says that Kyuubi's Chakra is part of his Power , it's not his * true power * , but it's part of his overall power ..


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> I guess your attempt to utilize humor to get yourself out of bad position or avoid responding directly to an argument you clearly do not have a real response too is rather humors.



You should be a comedian! Really!  i believe in ya 



> SM Naruto has amazing speed?
> 
> I've seem have missed that.
> 
> And before linking the blitzing of Asura, please do not bother, as I have pointed out the flaws in that assessment.



What the F are you talking about?The argument about how because nobody commented on it, it wasn't a speed feat? Sorry, try again later.



This however was not in anyway relevant to my point.Let's see how to explain to you so you get it  Now listen carefully and don't get distracted, *what i meant was* that i don't believe *Sascake* with his (Sascake's) speed and shenanigan prediction (Sascake's) won't be able to stall Naru till Kirin is ready.Get it now?





> Why do you continue to make yourself sound more foolish. Read that page thoroughly for a second.
> 
> "It is true, when I fought Oro........................"
> 
> ...



Nice try.*BUT* the argument about Kyuubi not being Naru's power started because of comments *you made * concerning The Kyuubi's fight with Oro.



> Naruto in the Orochimaru fight doesn't count because as you implicated, as the manga stated. Naruto using the Kyubi chakara without control, is not his power.




Good try non the less 


*OH AND BTW NARU ALSO ALLOWED THE KYUUBI TO TAKE CONTROL AGAINST PEIN:*


Link removed

So, don't be so quick to tell me off.




> Your argument doesn't make sense and you seem to be avoiding the elephant in the room, which is the pages flat out stating your argument is wrong.
> 
> As I said before, if you are going to continue to deny manga cannon we need not argue.




I already address them but ok i'll go again.Doesn't matter how many people say that Kyuubi is not Naru's power.Gamabunta's power is NOT Naru's either but GAMABUNTA'S!So cut **** 




> You will stop responding,* because obviously it is rather silly to continue to argue against manga cannon. *




True story brah  You should follow your own advises 



> What did Naru do to Haku? Defeat him? I pointed a page that flat out implicated Sasuke was gaining the upper hand.
> 
> And Naruto didn't stop Haku, that would be like arguing Sasuke stomped the Hachibi with Amaterasu. Sure they were able to end the battle with their respective jutsu, but this doesn't omit the obvious help they had to get to that position.




Link removed
Link removed


Just an example.Look at the whole chapter 28 and the begging of 29 to see how utterly helpless and useless Haku was against Naru.At that point Sascake is nowhere near that powerful, sorry 



HEY, it's pointless to argue with the manga, brah


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Sorry but if frogs and other summons *who are not under* their summoners control *and choose on their own free will to help*, count as part of the summoner's power, so does The Kyuubi.


It is for this reason that some Sasuke fans can make me roll my eyes with their claims of the Kyuubi not being Naruto's own power (although when he is not consciously in control of himself, I would argue it is not) when at the same time they say Sasuke won against Deidara even though he needed Manda (without Manda's cooperation) to survive the fight.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> What ? if Kyuubi is not Naruto's power than Sharingan is not Sasuke's power


LMAO  the sharingan is not an entity that threatens to kill my best friends when I am am taking a wee wittle nap in battle.

LMAO the sharingan doesn't fight it's wielders battles for them.

LMAO the sharingan wielder as control over the actions of their sharingan.

LMAO you obviously do not understand the argument, thus shouldn't have pushed the respond button to begin with.




> If you have something * sealed and trapped * inside you , of course it's part of your power ..


That is great, and the Kyubi is a very good power source, when you are in control. However we are discussing the condition of when he is not in control, as when he is not conscience, as when he does not have free will on his actions.

If the Kyubi can be considered a tool, when Naruto is in control. Then can Naruto be considered the tool when the Kyubi is in control?

How does Naruto contribute to the manifestation of the Kyubi in that position? 

You are mistaken good sir, as I never claimed the Kyubi under Naruto's control isn't Naruto's power. In fact I have stated before the Kyubi 1-3 is Naruto's power, as he is still in control. He is still the master wielding the tool.

This has been a rule of thumb established by the manga, now my self. When Naruto has control of the Kyubi it is clearly his power, no more less than Killerbee. However when the Kyubi is simply using Naruto as a medium, there is nothing there to argue is assessment of Naruto's power.







> Even if you don't control it completely , it's using * your * body .. You're are the medium and you have the bijuu sealed inside yourself , of course * it's your power * ..


To bad the manga doesn't agree with you.
Link removed

If the Kyubi in that state was his power, he wouldn't be training to seek control.

Why do you need control of something which is already yours good sir?

A Jinchuuriki is allowed to use their biju as a tool, as summons are a tool, as dojutsu are a too, etc. etc. But Naruto while not in control of the Kyubi is not utilizing Kyubi as a tool. It is the Kyubi using him as a tool.

Link removed

It is the Kyubi utilizing his own power, Not Naruto. He is only using Naruto's body as a medium to manifest his physical form.

So this situation good sir, who is really the tool?

I don't see why I have to go so far to thoroughly explain the obvious, and what has been considered to the standard for a while.

I don't see why I have to go so far to thoroughly explain something that, this is clearly confirmed by the manga. 




> Now if you can or can't control it it's difference .. But just because he doesn't control it doesn't mean it's his power .. As we know the Kyuubi chakra was always mixing with Naruto's normal chakra , so if he has Kyuubi's chakra in his normal Chakra-Pool  it's his  f*cking power ..


It is not his power as he has no say so, in the actions of such beast. You are essentially trying to omit the fact that the Kyubi is sentient being, with his own mind and own power. Naruto using his power if fine when it is actually Naruto that is doing the using. 

The Kyubi chakara mixing with Naruto's has nothing to do with the issue; the Kyubi in control is using the Kyubi's power.

The Kyubi mixing his chakara with Naruto falls into the category of what is is currently doing. He is using the Kyubi's chakara as his own, which constitutes as his own power. It is a tool in this case, no different than the sharingan for an Uchiha.

However the question is..... is the Kyubi still a tool when it has taken over Naruto? A tool is something you have control over, something that assist you in your task. It does not have it's own will, it does not have it's own agenda. All these definitions of a tool, does not, can not apply to Naruto being taken over by the Kyubi.







> C'mon trying to take Kyuubi of Naruto , you would have to be on another series , because without Kyuubi he would have some good chakra control like his father , so he could learn another different jutsus , he would have discovered his elements must sooner .. If you take Kyuubi off , you only can speculate what was gonna happen .. So as in the manga says Kyuubi's if part of his Power , it's not his * true power * , but it'd par of his overall power ..


Nobody is taking anything, I am simply reiterating what the manga clearly regards as cannon. 

This what if argument is irrelevant, as that is not where the ball has rolled. He was given the Kyubi by his father, so he may one day be able to master control over the beast, and utilize it to fight against Madara one day.

The key was invented for that sole purpose. If the Kyubi was Naruto's power to begin with, then they would be no need for control. He obviously has access to Kyubi 1-9, why not go full 9 tails ( as that is within his power) and kill Madara?


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> It is for this reason that Sasuke fans make me roll my eyes with their claims of the Kyuubi not being Naruto's own power



You and me both.When i stop laughing at the hilarious arguments, that is


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> It is for this reason that Sasuke fans make me roll my eyes with their claims of the Kyuubi not being Naruto's own power (although when he is not consciously in control of himself, I would argue it is not) when at the same time they say Sasuke won against Deidara even though he needed Manda (without Manda's cooperation) to survive the fight.



*Spoiler*: __ 







Link removed

So I guess Yamato must be a Sasuke fan?


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yamato said that the Kyuubi is not Naruto's true strength, dingus. Right after Naruto lost control of the 9-tails and hurt Sakura no less. I gather that he was remarking on Naruto's determination or will being his true strength, since they both follow the "Will of Fire." You and I both know that when Naruto is in control of the Kyuubi's chakra, it is his power though. Otherwise we'd have hare-brained arguments like "Rikudou Mode isn't Naruto's power!" Yes it is his power. As in, 1/2 of the Kyuubi's chakra is sealed inside him, therefore it's in his personal possession to use at will.

Although Yamato probably is a Sasuke fan like Madara after Madara owned him in manga.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 8, 2011)

Sasuke was a novice with his MS when he fought Bee and he hadn't completely mastered it when he was up against A. Imagine how hard Naruto would get stomped if he had faced Pain in the middle of his training. 

Now Sasuke has full mastery over his MS and gained a new dojutsu on top of it. Don't jump to conclusions, we have yet to see Sasuke in action.


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## SageRafa (May 8, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke was a novice with his MS when he fought Bee and he hadn't completely mastered it when he was up against A. Imagine how hard Naruto would get stomped if he had faced Pain in the middle of his training.
> 
> Now Sasuke has full mastery over his MS and gained a new dojutsu on top of it. Don't jump to conclusions, we have yet to see Sasuke in action.



Of course they will be equal and the fight can't be a stomp to neither side , that would be trolling the fandom really hard 

If you saw my last thread I said EMS Sasuke and RM Naruto surpassed Pain  *(it's my personal opinion not a fact , if you want to debate that with me go to my other thread please ) * so I'm not making Sasuke look weak .. I just answer to that people who thinks and affirm that the fight will be a Genjutsu Rape for Sasuke or that come with * excuses * that Kyuubi is not Naruto's power ..

You don't see me saying " Naruto will go SM throw a punch in the air and use Frog Kata right in Sasuke's face and he would be dead " or " RM Naruto will take 5 laps around Sasuke at light-speed and then simply punch him to death with one hit " .. But the Sasuke fans like to say that Naruto will get stomped , and that he doesn't have chances , bla bla bla .. 

And that just pisses me off because * everybody knows that their battle is gonna be a tough one and they' will be equals * .. I never said Sasuke is gonna be weak , he's gonna be = to RM Naruto .. So it can't be a stomp to *neither* side ..


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Of course they will be equal and the fight can't be a stomp to neither side , that would be trolling the fandom really hard
> 
> If you saw my last thread I said EMS Sasuke and RM Naruto surpassed Pain  *(it's my personal opinion not a fact , if you want to debate that with me go to my other thread please ) * so I'm not making Sasuke look weak .. I just answer to that people who thinks and affirm that the fight will be a Genjutsu Rape for Sasuke or that come with * excuses * that Kyuubi is not Naruto's power ..
> 
> ...


+reps to this guy for truth.


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Of course they will be equal and the fight can't be a stomp to neither side , that would be trolling the fandom really hard
> 
> If you saw my last thread I said EMS Sasuke and RM Naruto surpassed Pain  *(it's my personal opinion not a fact , if you want to debate that with me go to my other thread please ) * so I'm not making Sasuke look weak .. I just answer to that people who thinks and affirm that the fight will be a Genjutsu Rape for Sasuke or that come with * excuses * that Kyuubi is not Naruto's power ..
> 
> ...



More speculation and assumption.  

You should go to fanfic section, this section is based on manga. 

EMS Sasuke > RM Naruto
RM Naruto with Itachi's power > EMS Sasuke


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> More speculation and assumption.
> 
> You should go to fanfic section, this section is based on manga.
> 
> ...


And these aren't assumptions or speculation? We have hardly seen Naruto fight with RM and haven't seen anything from Sasuke with EMS yet, so I wouldn't state those things in bold as fact.


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## SageRafa (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> More speculation and assumption.
> 
> You should go to fanfic section, this section is based on manga.
> 
> ...



What's the speculation ? Give me * your * proofs that EMS Sasuke > RM Naruto ? Please  

Do you know what's MS Sasuke is ??

MS Sasuke = Hebi sasuke + power Itachi transplanted to him

Do you know what EMS Sasuke is ??

EMS Sasuke = MS Sasuke (with Itachi's help) + Itachi's eye and Itachi's power

So what's the difference with RM Naruto with Itachi's power ? They * both have Itachi's power* .. So that means Naruto > Sasuke ..

And now please tell me where's the fanfic in what I wrote ?

Tell how would Sasuke evade a Kawazu Kumite Punch please if he doesn't have knowledge ? No forget , don't even answer I don't want argue like you guys making scenarios where your Favorite always Stomps 

That logic doesn't work quite right ..


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> And these aren't assumptions or speculation? We have hardly seen Naruto fight with RM and haven't seen anything from Sasuke with EMS yet, so I wouldn't state those things in bold as fact.



No these aren't speculation or assumption, manga showed us that Itachi gave Naruto powers so he could be able to fight Sasuke. 

So its logical to think Naruto + Itachi's power > Sasuke.


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## SageRafa (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No these aren't speculation or assumption, manga showed us that Itachi gave Naruto powers so he could be able to fight Sasuke.
> 
> So its logical to think Naruto + Itachi's power > Sasuke.



Naruto + Itachi's power > Sasuke + Itachi's eyes and power

So Naruto > Sasuke without Itachi giving anything to both 

See ? That logic doesn't work ..


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 8, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> What's the speculation ? Give me * your * proofs that EMS Sasuke > RM Naruto ? Please
> 
> Do you know what's MS Sasuke is ??
> 
> ...



Do you even know what speculation mean? 

Here, I'll explain. 



SageRafa said:


> Of course they will be equal and the fight can't be a stomp to neither side , that would be trolling the fandom really hard



Thats is what you *think* will happen, your opinion is not based on manga, its based on fandom. Manga tells us that Naruto can't beat Sasuke. Naruto admitted it and Itachi also thought Naruto would lose to Sasuke, which is the reason why Itachi gave Naruto powers.



SageRafa said:


> If you saw my last thread I said EMS Sasuke and RM Naruto surpassed Pain  *(it's my personal opinion not a fact , if you want to debate that with me go to my other thread please ) * so I'm not making Sasuke look weak .. I just answer to that people who thinks and affirm that the fight will be a Genjutsu Rape for Sasuke or that come with * excuses * that Kyuubi is not Naruto's power ..



Your last thread was full of speculation and assumption. 



SageRafa said:


> You don't see me saying " Naruto will go SM throw a punch in the air and use Frog Kata right in Sasuke's face and he would be dead " or " RM Naruto will take 5 laps around Sasuke at light-speed and then simply punch him to death with one hit " .. But the Sasuke fans like to say that Naruto will get stomped , and that he doesn't have chances , bla bla bla ..



You think this because your opinion is based on your opinion, while other people opinion based on the manga.



SageRafa said:


> And that just pisses me off because * everybody knows that their battle is gonna be a tough one and they' will be equals * .. I never said Sasuke is gonna be weak , he's gonna be = to RM Naruto .. So it can't be a stomp to *neither* side ..



Lol, no. Your speculating that it would be a tough one. It won't, based on manga Naruto will lose to Tsukiyomi. So the battle will be over in 1-2 seconds if Naruto has no genjutsu defense.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

Lol *at the speculation* trolling *based on ***** that Naruto will lose in two seconds to Sascake's weakass Tsukuyomi 

Naru will break out by disrupting the chakra flow.You just need enough power to break out:

Link removed

And nobody has more power than Naru who has access to all of Kyuubi's chakra :ho


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No these aren't speculation or assumption, manga showed us that Itachi gave Naruto powers so he could be able to fight Sasuke.
> 
> So its logical to think Naruto + Itachi's power > Sasuke.



Itachi gave Naruto a genjutsu crow type of message while Madara plans to give Sasuke GM with the combined power of all Bijuus  So it will be RM Naruto + Itachi's gift >>> Sasuke + Itachi's eyes+ Juubi + GM  
Yet again lol Uchiha.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Yet again lol Uchiha.



lol Uchiha, indeed


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## SageRafa (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Do you even know what speculation mean?
> 
> Here, I'll explain.
> 
> ...




You didn't answer the point and evaded it  

MS Sasuke = Hebi Sasuke + Itachi's power

EMS Sasuke = MS Sasuke + Itachi's eyes and power

So what's the problem in Naruto having itachi's powers ? Itachi * gave it to him , so now it's part of his powers * , it's not like Naruto stealed his eyes after his death without his consent , ups


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## seastone (May 8, 2011)

Honestly in the final battle between they they will be able to counter each other's moves. 

Sasuke will be able to dodge/tank Bijuus dama and Naruto's taijutsu with his doujutsu. 

Likewise Naruto will be able to dodge/tank Sasuke's Amaterasu/Susanoo and overcome his genjutsu.

Kishi is not going let it be a stomp either way and Naruro's prediction that they both will die indicate that they are strong enough to take each other out.


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## Closet Pervert (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Lol, no. Your speculating that it would be a tough one. It won't, based on manga Naruto will lose to Tsukiyomi. So the battle will be over in 1-2 seconds if Naruto has no genjutsu defense.


Wow you really hate Kishimoto don't you? You just called him the shittiest manga writer ever.

But seriously, fellas, let's not waste our times debating against obvious trolls. This is getting sad.


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## SageRafa (May 8, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Honestly in the final battle between they they will be able to counter each other's moves.
> 
> Sasuke will be able to dodge/tank Bijuus dama and Naruto's taijutsu with his doujutsu.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much, exactly what I said in the previous page 

But I think they will say that it's all speculation 
BTW + reps for the truth


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Manga tells us that Naruto can't beat Sasuke. Naruto admitted it and *Itachi also thought Naruto would lose to Sasuke, which is the reason why Itachi gave Naruto powers.*


The quote in bold is based on your own assumption. It's also possible that Itachi shoved the crow down Naruto's throat because he wanted Sasuke to know the truth about certain things that only Itachi knows, and this is how the crow will come into play later on. And given that he turned the transfer of power/information/whatever into a fucking crowjob, I would assume that in some ways Itachi may have a sick mind, since the crows are not real but part of his illusion (genjutsu). 

But anyways, my point is we don't know if Itachi did in fact think that Naruto would inevitably lose to Sasuke unless you can provide a quote from a scan to support it. And really, Itachi didn't know at the time of the crowjob that his eyes would be stolen after his death and given to Sasuke to complete his MS abilities, or that Naruto would attain full control of the Kyuubi's chakra. He was intelligent, but he couldn't foresee what would happen right after his death, so if I were him (at least), I wouldn't assume that Naruto is definately going to lose to Sasuke, which probably means Sasuke kills Naruto.



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Lol, no. Your speculating that it would be a tough one. It won't, based on manga Naruto will lose to Tsukiyomi. So the battle will be over in 1-2 seconds if Naruto has no genjutsu defense.


The manga has not provided any recent evidence for Naruto having updated genjutsu resistance capabilities, but it's possible that he may, and it hasn't been revealed yet. But that would be assuming, and assuming is bad in debate, lol. Although come on dude, we can at least say Naruto will have some sort of counter for Sasuke's Tsukiyomi that will be revealed later, but we don't know what it will be exactly. Because if Sasuke took out Naruto in 2-3 seconds with Tsukiyomi in manga and defeated him, then Kishimoto's a much worse writer than even I make him out to be.

I agree with the poster further up who said this debate is pointless, maybe because this is the internet, and we have to assume and speculate a lot to say how the final Naruto vs. Sasuke battle will go. So like 18 pages of posts later, and it looks like maybe the thread is finally winding down.


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## AKmyWaffle (May 8, 2011)

Don't you just love this? 

Naruto is the biggest Sasuke fanboy, and Naruto's fans absolutely refuse to accept Naruto's words as anything more than fap. Unless it suits their argument of course... Than Naruto is a impartial scholar with a blazing thirst for truth.


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Don't you just love this?
> 
> Naruto is the biggest Sasuke fanboy, and Naruto's fans absolutely refuse to accept Naruto's words as anything more than fap. Unless it suits their argument of course... Than Naruto is a impartial scholar with a blazing thirst for truth.


That's a two-way street bud. I've seen a lot of Sasuke fans on NF who take everything that's said from other characters about Sasuke _and_ everything Sasuke says as manga truth in debate. Even though these characters are human, and humans make assumptions and mistakes. Therefore, all of these characters make assumptions and mistakes, including Sasuke.


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## AoshiKun (May 8, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Don't you just love this?
> 
> Naruto is the biggest Sasuke fanboy, and Naruto's fans absolutely refuse to accept Naruto's words as anything more than fap. Unless it suits their argument of course... Than Naruto is a impartial scholar with a blazing thirst for truth.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJSkrF8nhxg[/YOUTUBE]
         ​


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## AKmyWaffle (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> That's a two-way street bud. I've seen a lot of Sasuke fans on NF who take everything that's said from other characters about Sasuke and everything Sasuke says as manga truth. Even though these characters are human, and humans make assumptions and mistakes. Therefore, all of these characters make assumptions and mistakes, including Sasuke.



That's not true, most of the time a character isn't lying to suit the needs of your argument. In fact most of the time a character isn't lying period. 

In this case Naruto and Sasuke have both been consistent in stating that Naruto is inferior. Yet you and other Naruto fans somehow twisted this into meaning that Naruto is stronger. Honestly though, if you're going to completely ignore the manga why even bother reading it?


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## LostSelf (May 8, 2011)

Sasuke should get a big powerup even physically or something that helps him, like knowing what Naruto thinks or something.

Because if he faces Naruto with Amaterasu and Susanito, he will get stomped, and bad.


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> In this case Naruto and Sasuke have both been consistent in stating that Naruto is inferior. Yet you and other Naruto fans somehow twisted this into meaning that Naruto is stronger. Honestly though, if you're going to completely ignore the manga why even bother reading it?


I don't twist anything into meaning Naruto is stronger, I'm just saying that the way their final battle plays out and how it ends can only be speculated upon right now, because we haven't seen enough of RM or EMS in action yet. Basically we haven't seen enough of RM Naruto or EMS Sasuke yet to honestly compare them. 

Why can't you accept that any sort of discussion about their final battle is going to be built on speculation and assumptions?


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## AKmyWaffle (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> I don't twist anything into meaning Naruto is stronger, I'm just saying that the way their final battle plays out and how it ends can only be speculated upon right now, because we haven't seen enough of RM or EMS in action yet.



Look at the above yours. How does that happen when the manga clearly points towards Sasuke's superiority?

While I do agree that we can only speculate the outcome of their battle, I would have to argue that the statements made about MS Sasuke and SM Naruto should be considered when we speculate. Especially the part about Sasuke being on a completely different level, as Naruto pointed out.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

roguebagel said:


> Yamato said that the Kyuubi is not Naruto's true strength, dingus. Right after Naruto lost control of the 9-tails and hurt Sakura no less. I gather that he was remarking on Naruto's determination or will being his true strength, since they both follow the "Will of Fire." You and I both know that when Naruto is in control of the Kyuubi's chakra, it is his power though. Otherwise we'd have hare-brained arguments like "Rikudou Mode isn't Naruto's power!" Yes it is his power. As in, 1/2 of the Kyuubi's chakra is sealed inside him, therefore it's in his personal possession to use at will.


I would argue that Yamato words are, what they are. I acknowledge good sir, that when Naruto is in control it could be considered his power. As he is using the Kyubi chakara as a tool, in such a position.

This has been my stance from the beginning. 



> Although Yamato probably is a Sasuke fan like Madara after Madara owned him in manga.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

TheIronMan said:


> Sasuke should get a big powerup even physically or something that helps him, like knowing what Naruto thinks or something.
> 
> Because if he faces Naruto with Amaterasu and Susanito, he will get stomped, and bad.



Bold presumption from a person who has witnessed little to nothing of RM, to make such a presumption.

Susano and Amaterasu scale very well good in the power rankings. As one only requires a touch to be effected, and the other is possibly the strongest defensive jutsu seen to date in the manga.

I am willing to bet that Amaterasu and Susano are and will still be staples in Sasuke's future arsenal.

I guess I can suggest FRS will be ineffective in their future battle, as it has the slowest traveling speed among the three?

It can only be utilized one way, unlike the three?


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Bold presumption from a person who has witnessed little to nothing of RM, to make such a presumption.
> 
> Susano and Amaterasu scale very well good in the power rankings. As one only requires a touch to be effected, and the other is possibly the strongest defensive jutsu seen to date in the manga.
> 
> I am willing to bet that Amaterasu and Susano are and will still be staples in Sasuke's future arsenal.


We know he can move more quickly than Bee could follow -shrug-


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## LostSelf (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Bold presumption from a person who has witnessed little to nothing of RM, to make such a presumption.
> 
> Susano and Amaterasu scale very well good in the power rankings. As one only requires a touch to be effected, and the other is possibly the strongest defensive jutsu seen to date in the manga.
> 
> ...



But we've seen good things from RM, not much but only from what we saw we can say Sasuke will need much more than just Amaterasu and his version of Susano to defeat RM Naruto.

His speed surprised even Killer bee, i don't believe he will get touched by Amaterasu and his Susanoo will be quite useless touching Naruto. Counting SM's strenght, Susano would be punched away or thrown away like he threw the Rhyno.

It's clear that Sasuke will need much more than that. Or a powered up Amaterasu and Susano to be on par.

And i just talked about RM Naruto's speed.

Sasuke will get something to be on par? Of course. But until them, his current jutsus will hardly defeat Naruto.

FRS can be used against Susano, since it's faster than Susano'os movement.

It doesn't have to be used against Amaterasu. It's not enough to beat Sasuke though, but im sure it can at least, open a hole in Susano and hurt Sasuke.

Anyway, FRS will be hardly used, Naruto got a much better Rasengan. That i don't think Susano will be able to tank. But noone of us has a proof about this, so i better not speculate.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

TheIronMan said:


> But we've seen good things from RM, not much but only from what we saw we can say Sasuke will need much more than just Amaterasu and his version of Susano to defeat RM Naruto.
> 
> His speed surprised even Killer bee, i don't believe he will get touched by Amaterasu and his Susanoo will be quite useless touching Naruto. Counting SM's strenght, Susano would be punched away or thrown away like he threw the Rhyno.
> 
> ...



wats his speed have to with it...mixing sasunoo and black flames will be enough


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## LostSelf (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> wats his speed have to with it...mixing sasunoo and black flames will be enough



He can dodge every attack Sasuke throws at him. And has a high chance to blitz.

Can stomp him if they fight CqC.

Unless you think Sasuke, as he is now will use Susano and Amaterasu right of the bat and will hide there the last battle. If that's so Naruto will outlast him. They can't compare in stamina either.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

TheIronMan said:


> He can dodge every attack Sasuke throws at him. And has a high chance to blitz.
> 
> Can stomp him if they fight CqC.
> 
> Unless you think Sasuke, as he is now will use Susano and Amaterasu right of the bat and will hide there the last battle. If that's so Naruto will outlast him. They can't compare in stamina either.



sasuke was able to survive E who to was covered in chakra and fast ..why do you think naruto will be different???


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## Corax (May 8, 2011)

How?He cant. Obviously Naruto is a main character and will defeat him. Well may be not after a hard fight but still.


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> sasuke was able to survive E who to was covered in chakra and fast ..why do you think naruto will be different???



Because unlike A, Naruto has long range attacks in RM.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> sasuke was able to survive E who to was covered in chakra and fast ..why do you think naruto will be different???



Um, because speed and taijutsu is not all Naru has?Because Naru is not A? Kage Bunshin no jutsu, *Long-range* rasengans, Frogs and shit say hi.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Because unlike A, Naruto has long range attacks in RM.



i see a sec ago you said hed blitz him and now hes going to long range attack him lol...and thats goint to get thru sasunoo?


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i see a sec ago you said hed blitz him and now hes going to long range attack him lol...and thats goint to get thru sasunoo?



Im not the guy who said that, lolz.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i see a sec ago you said hed blitz him and now hes going to long range attack him lol...



LOL, you don't even know who you are responding too 


TheIronMan said that, no jaknblack




animeguy91 said:


> and thats goint to get thru sasunoo?



If Danzo's wind bullets can i don't see how rasen shuriken and Bijuu-dama would not fair better.


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## ? (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i see a sec ago you said hed blitz him and now hes going to long range attack him lol...and thats goint to get thru sasunoo?


I don't see why Naruto's attacks wouldn't get through Susanoo. Danzo's generic fuutons did.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

Inu said:


> I don't see why Naruto's attacks wouldn't get through Susanoo. Danzo's generic fuutons did.



now sasunoo if full ....no longer is it just incomplete...i doubt it will work now..


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

> now sasunoo if full ....no longer is it just incomplete...i doubt it will work now..



Oh, you doubt..  Good for you  As long as we are making baseless assumptions, i say that Susano gets annihilated by Bijuu-dama


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Oh, you doubt..  Good for you  As long as we are making baseless assumptions, i say that Susano gets annihilated by Bijuu-dama



now that might work..i wonder if mixing it with black flames would help?


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## RosenWitch (May 8, 2011)

Sasuke and Naruto are equals on the battlefield.

That's what Kishimoto has been asserting for a while now; it'd make for a shitty final confrontation if one was the other's clear superior.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> now that might work..i wonder if mixing it with black flames would help?



LOL, mixing it with black flames  What exactly is that gonna do against Bijuu-dama


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> LOL, mixing it with black flames  What exactly is that gonna do against Bijuu-dama



well balck flame can eat away anything...dont see why it cant eat away the tail beast chakra


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> well balck flame can eat away anything...dont see why it cant eat away the tail beast chakra



The same way it ate A's bitchslap for Sascake?Oh, wait.. Eventually?Maybe, but before Bijuu-dama inflicts damage?Yeah keep dreaming


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## stockholmsyndrome (May 8, 2011)

RosenWitch said:


> Sasuke and Naruto are equals on the battlefield.
> 
> That's what Kishimoto has been asserting for a while now; it'd make for a shitty final confrontation if one was the other's clear superior.



I agree each is as skilled as each other whether it be in Base or in the transformations both will come off as equals you only have to look at the Five Kage arc when Sasuke caught upto SM Naruto when he completed Susanoo against Danzou and both realised there skills as they where would not be enough which resulted in Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes and Naruto going for Bijuu training


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> The same way it ate A's bitchslap for Sascake?Oh, wait.. Eventually?Maybe, but before Bijuu-dama inflicts damage?Yeah keep dreaming



wait arent we talking abouit naruto ?...he doesnt even know that move..but i still believ if sasuke aims at the ball he could destroy it..after all like we saw aginst sasukes fire realase it pushes the move bak as well , while slowly eating it


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> wait arent we talking abouit naruto ?...he doesnt even know that move..but i still believ if sasuke aims at the ball he could destroy it..after all like we saw aginst sasukes fire realase it pushes the move bak as well , while slowly eating it



Naruto doesn't know *bitchslap*?Seriously? But that was not the point.


Point was that Amaterasu never eats anything that fast.If it can't eat A's arm that quick i don't see how would eat Bijuu-dama before it inflicts damage.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Naruto doesn't know *bitchslap*?Seriously? But that was not the point.
> 
> 
> Point was that Amaterasu never eats anything that fast.If it can't eat A's arm that quick i don't see how would eat Bijuu-dama before it inflicts damage.



i told you it pushes moved bak so while slowly eating it , the ball we stop dead in its tracks..its diferent then eating a arm...eating chakra seems to be easier


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i told you it pushes moved bak so while slowly eating it , the ball we stop dead in its tracks..its diferent then eating a arm...eating chakra seems to be easier



All very cool, can you just link me to the pages where Amaterasu does that?And did Amaterasu ate A's chkar shroud?I'm thinking no.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

TheIronMan said:


> But we've seen good things from RM, not much but only from what we saw we can say Sasuke will need much more than just Amaterasu and his version of Susano to defeat RM Naruto.


We've only seen a few feats from RM, nothing thus far that would undermine the usefulness of Susano or Amaterasu.





> His speed surprised even Killer bee, i don't believe he will get touched by Amaterasu and his Susanoo will be quite useless touching Naruto. Counting SM's strenght, Susano would be punched away or thrown away like he threw the Rhyno.


Killerbee, doesn't have the sharingan.

I disagree with your assessment of Amaterasu, but your notion is quite fare.

But sense when has Susano, been a jutsu solely for offense? I could have sworn it made it's debut as a defensive maneuver? 

Susano being punched away? Even with E's striking power, and against the weakest stage of Susano it had no such effects. Besides better Susano than Sasuke right? 

As long as Susano prevents Naruto's punches in SM from landing on Sasuke all is right in the world correct?




> It's clear that Sasuke will need much more than that. Or a powered up Amaterasu and Susano to be on par.


Your assessment is inaccurate, as even with the MS. Sasuke had shown the potential to be able to expand on both.

His final, final Susano was only briefly shown, and Amaterasu combined with Kasagutchi has potential.





> And i just talked about RM Naruto's speed.


Yes which at this point has no merits on Sasuke's attacks.





> Sasuke will get something to be on par? Of course. But until them, his current jutsus will hardly defeat Naruto.


Why because you say so?

As I stated before your assessment is speculation, you do not really no little to nothing about RM apart from the little we saw from it. You make the assumption that he could dodge Amaterasu because bee couldn't see, discounting that Sasuke's ability to track movement is >>>>>>>> Killerbees. 

RM Naruto may be fast, but nothing implicates thus far that he has the speed to dodge any of MS attacks at this point. 





> FRS can be used against Susano, since it's faster than Susano'os movement.


Faster than Susano movements? I don't think Susano would be trying to dodge it. It is a defensive jutsu for a reason good sir. 





> It doesn't have to be used against Amaterasu. It's not enough to beat Sasuke though, but im sure it can at least, open a hole in Susano and hurt Sasuke.


Open a hole in Susano? Not when it has the shield blocking the attack.

reigned supreme

You also are assuming that FRS will be going against the Same Susano that Danzo faced.

You do realize that Sasuke Susano was upgraded moments before his eyes gave in.


reigned supreme






> Anyway, FRS will be hardly used, Naruto got a much better Rasengan. That i don't think Susano will be able to tank. But noone of us has a proof about this, so i better not speculate.


Much better rasengan? Where? 

He hasn't mastered Biju Dama yet. And you have no assessment on the capabilities or tanking capacity of Sasuke's final Susano.

So you make speculation after speculation, and apply the what if's for Naruto's case, and ignore the what if's for Sasuke.

Unlike Naruto whose power you can only speculate on. Sasuke has shown an upgraded Susano, he also has shown better control over Amaterasu. He also has shown the ability to adjust his Amaterasu, to land on fast moving targets.

So while you operate on what if's and the intangibles for Naruto's case, Sasuke has actually displayed his what if's.


----------



## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

IpH:

Just saying one thing.

You say that we're speculating about Naruto as a bad thing, while speculating that adding Amaterasu, an offensive attack, to Susanno, a defensive technique, will make it...more defensive.

While possible, that itself is speculation.

just saying.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> IpH:
> 
> Just saying one thing.
> 
> ...


I never made such a claim.

Just saying.

I merely stated that Susanoo has received an upgrade, which is manga cannon.

And Amaterasu has with the usage of Kasugutchi has received a boost in the potential offesne, also manga cannon.

Both of these presumption can be thoroughly backed by the panels in the manga.

Speculations are fine, but he seems to be supporting a speculation with another, rather than actual panel.


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## Face (May 8, 2011)

When they fight, both Naruto and Sasuke will be equal. Naruto might have the advantage in terms of speed and power but Sasuke will have his own ways of dealing with it. Like Susanoo or his new EMS technique. It's never going to be a one sided fight. We have yet to see what Sasuke's EMS is capable of. Lets hold off on the assumptions until we actually have a good idea of their abilities.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> All very cool, can you just link me to the pages where Amaterasu does that?And did Amaterasu ate A's chkar shroud?I'm thinking no.



well the fames attached to his arm so yea he ate thru it and go to the beggining of the itachi  vs sasuke fight and yull see it


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

> And you have no assessment on the capabilities or tanking capacity of Sasuke's final Susano.



You declare his final Susanno should have a tanking capacity other than what it's shown, hence you using "final Susanno".

That's simply what you said.  Perhaps you miscommunicated, but you speculated that the tanking ability would be different from what we've seen prior, whereas the only difference between then and now would be the amaterasu coating.


The most I see that doing is acting like the Immolation skill.  You can hit it, but it'll hurt to do so.  It doesn't make it any more durable, just less of an appealing possibility.

which, frankly, wouldn't really matter to Naruto, with his epic healing.


In actuality, it could,  creatively, be a way to free himself from Sasuke's Genjutsu.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> You declare his final Susanno should have a tanking capacity other than what it's shown, hence you using "final Susanno".
> 
> That's simply what you said.  Perhaps you miscommunicated, but you speculated that the tanking ability would be different from what we've seen prior, whereas the only difference between then and now would be the amaterasu coating.
> 
> ...



itll be tougher to brake...thats prabably about it


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> itll be tougher to brake...thats prabably about it



...firstly, "break", not "brake".

Secondly, if it didn't have an immolating ability...then what the hell is it a fire for, anyway?


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> All very cool, can you just link me to the pages where Amaterasu does that?*And did Amaterasu ate A's chkar shroud?*I'm thinking no.



Oh it did good sir, it did.

Raikage arm after first being hit by Amaterasu
reigned supreme

Notice the shroud is still intact in some areas, as the scene progresses however.

reigned supreme

Amaterasu has spread to those areas that were previously intact and covered by the shroud. The shroud is no longer visible around the portion that is being burned period.

Amaterasu burns anything it touches, including chakara. Thus is how it was able to burn flames.


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

:sanji Can Naruto beat Sasuke? Yes. Can Sasuke defeat Naruto? Yes. What would allow either outcome to occur boys and girls? The situation in which the fights occur. Correct! Have a lolipop and a rainbowwwww


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Oh it did good sir, it did.
> 
> Raikage arm after first being hit by Amaterasu
> reigned supreme
> ...




Sorry but the second picture is not so clear.And it's not anywhere near zoomed enough like the first.Anyway, Bijuu-dama ain't gonna sit and wait for a few minutes till Amaterasu finally manages to eat it


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> ...firstly, "break", not "brake".
> 
> Secondly, if it didn't have an immolating ability...then what the hell is it a fire for, anyway?



first of all i dont need you correcting me...second the black fires so that anything that touches it will burn and the fire will spread to them..but the sasunoo itself is very hard to break(happy )


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## Canute87 (May 8, 2011)

Well there are ways.

For example if Sasuke can master partial transformations of Susaon to cover his body within a small diameter he can fight naruto with Susano-O's fists at the same time providing a nice defense with a amatersau covering. 

The next problem is speed which i assume shouldn't be that much of a problem if Sasuke adapted Raiakge's lightning shroud technique. 
He might not be able to produce that kind of power but enough to improve his reflexes and put his sharingan prediction capabilities into overdrive making him able to react comfortable to naruto's onslaughts.
And finally, Naruto's reluctance to kill Sasuke.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Sorry but the second picture is not so clear.And it's not anywhere near zoomed enough like the first.Anyway, Bijuu-dama ain't gonna sit and wait for a few minutes till Amaterasu finally manages to eat it



i told you it pushes the chakra it eats back so it the ball wont be able to move while its being eatin


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## Hiroshi (May 8, 2011)

Please keep it civil in here.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> You declare his final Susanno should have a tanking capacity other than what it's shown, hence you using "final Susanno".


But how am I utilizing the final Susano good sir? Did I mentioned the offensive capabilities? Or any proverbial tricks it may have gain thanks to it's final upgrade?

Clearly you can see the Amaterasu flames  in his palm. I could have went on and on into speculation land, but I stopped at the obvious.

I stopped at what can be deduced from previous evidence. And the evidence points to the fact that, with each new layer, Susano has gained a boost defensively.



> That's simply what you said.  Perhaps you miscommunicated, but you speculated that the tanking ability would be different from what we've seen prior, whereas the only difference between then and now would be the amaterasu coating.


No. I didn't speculate the tanking ability, I merely stated it would be stronger than previous entries. This is no different than the base logic you are utilizing to implicate RM, is above SM in the power up department. Or EMS is above MS in the power department.

We are talking about an additional layer of Susano, something that can be described as armor no doubt. Why wouldn't it's defensive capability be greater than the previous version? Hasn't that been the correlation sense it's debut?

And where are you getting Amaterasu coating from?

Certainly you can see the extra layer of Susano covering Sasuke's previous entry.
Amaterasu flames 

I don't think that is Amaterasu good sir.

I think you have misread my post outright. This would explain why we seem to be arguing two entirely different things. 





> The most I see that doing is acting like the Immolation skill.  You can hit it, but it'll hurt to do so.  It doesn't make it any more durable, just less of an appealing possibility.


Could you please explain to me what you are talking about?

I never once stated or implicated combining Amaterasu with Susano boost it's defense. I utilized Sasuke's extra layer (the one that is similar to what Itachi had) to argue Sasuke's Susano defense being bolstered.

The new offensive capability with Amatearsu and Kagutushi, comes in his ability to reshape and likely redirect the Enton already put out by Amaterasu. He has shown this potential against Raikage and Gara respectively.

This is a huge boost in the offensive capability of Amaterasu, as it potentially gives him the same type of control over Amaterasu/Enton that Gara has on his sand.





> which, frankly, wouldn't really matter to Naruto, with his epic healing.


Naruto's epic healing, as failed him on a number of occasions. See his condition after VOE, Kakuzu, Karui respectively. Also considering that Amaterasu/Enton last for 7 days, I wouldn't bank to much on Naruto's healing factor.






> In actuality, it could,  creatively, be a way to free himself from Sasuke's Genjutsu.


How so? Also you seem to ignore how genjutsu has been used lately. It has lately been used as a way to land a cheap shot. While Naruto is breaking free of the genjutsu, Sasuke could easily be administer an Amaterasu to the face which would be GG.

But all this is fan fiction battle dome logic, and this argument is not necessarily about Sasuke vs. Naruto. But if Sasuke's two Go to, MS jutsu will be affective against current Naruto.


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i told you it pushes the chakra it eats back so it the ball wont be able to move while its being eatin



lol, what


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i told you it pushes the chakra it eats back so it the ball wont be able to move while its being eatin



Amaterasu eatin' a Bijuu dama is the most funny shit i have read in a while  Amaterasu couldnt eat Karins clothes and Samurai armour,good luck eating a KameHameHa nuke blast


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Sorry but the second picture is not so clear.And it's not anywhere near zoomed enough like the first.Anyway, Bijuu-dama ain't gonna sit and wait for a few minutes till Amaterasu finally manages to eat it



Indeed it is not clear, however it is clear enough to see that Amaterasu has not spread. It is clear enough to see, that the areas that were previous covered by the shroud, are covered by Amaterasu in the following page.

It is easy to see that shroud is not longer visible around the portion being burned by Amaterasu.

Why do you do this? Is it so hard to admit you were wrong and leave it at that. You get argued into a corner, then you try make a new argument to save face.

My response was not to argue Amaterasu effectiveness against Naruto, it was simply addressing your question of Amaterasu burning through chakara. It does, it has shown this potential twice. How else could explain it burning flames? How else can you explain, Raikage's shroud covered arm being smothered by Amaterasu?


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Indeed it is not clear, however it is clear enough to see that Amaterasu has not spread. It is clear enough to see, that the areas that were previous covered by the shroud, are covered by Amaterasu in the following page.
> 
> It is easy to see that shroud is not longer visible around the portion being burned by Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



So if a Suiton jutsu overpowers a Katon jutsu it means the Suiton be eatin' the Katon ?  NF these days.......


----------



## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

Frankly, you did speculate on its tanking ability.

He made the claim that FRS, hitting Sussano, would break it.

To which you responded that that's not a definite since his new Susanno would be a new, upgraded version from what he used against Danzo.

So, sorry, saying "it could take this hit because of its new upgrade" is literally the definition of "speculating the tanking abilities of its new form"


And no, sorry.  It didn't eat the Shroud first.  The shroud was in full effect.

Though I am amused by the thought that, because flames move upward people think it eats the shroud.

Flames move upward with their heat.  If you want to say it eats the shroud, provide a picture of it disappearing, clearly, without the nature of ANY FIRE explaining the appearance.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> lol, what



Link removed

the black flames pushes bak whatever it touchs...sasueks flame couldnt even move past the fames and was pushed bak...the same would happen to ball


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> So if a Suiton jutsu overpowers a Katon jutsu it means the Suiton be eatin' the Katon ?  NF there days.......



It would implicate that it canceled out the Katon certainly.

However does the word I use make a difference? Would it be politically correct to state Amaterasu, canceled out the chakara shroud? Would it change what is happening, or what has happened?

But eating away would better describe what Amaterasu is doing.

Much like acid eats/erodes after a prolonged exposure to flesh, much like fire eats away at the wood in your fire place. "Eating away at the chakara armor" is a better way to describe what Amaterasu is doing; Which is eroding the chakara dense armor.


----------



## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> Link removed
> 
> the black flames pushes bak whatever it touchs...sasueks flame couldnt even move past the fames and was pushed bak...the same would happen to ball



Do you seriously compare your avarege fodder Katons that canot even burn like normal fire to a fucking Bijuu nuke ? 



IpHr0z3nI said:


> It would implicate that it canceled out the Katon certainly.
> 
> However does the word I use make a difference? Would it be politically correct to state Amaterasu, canceled out the chakara shroud? Would it change what is happening, or what has happened?
> 
> ...



It doesent eat anything good sir, as i gave you an example with the Suiton and the Katon good sir the element with the advantage nulifies the other element


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## Jeαnne (May 8, 2011)

this thread clearly shows what always happens in this manga

naruto fans/sasuke haters come, underating sasuke 

then when the fight actually happens and sasuke fights in an awesome way they call it kishimoto no jutsu 


the truth is that kishi has always been preparing us all to see a really strong sasuke confronting a really strong naruto, they will be equals, and each one will have a counter to the other, the rest is just fanboy and hatersdreams of both sides



plus, amaterasu will burn according to what the plot needs, it has always been like that ^^, if kishi decide to make amaterasu really troublesome to naruto's wind jutsus, he will.


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> Link removed
> 
> the black flames pushes bak whatever it touchs...sasueks flame couldnt even move past the fames and was pushed bak...the same would happen to ball



You literally compared Amaterasu vs regular fire to Amaterasu vs CDB.

Sorry, but fail.

Now, if we see it pushing back, let's say, a giant rock (not eating it, but stopping), then you'd have an argument.  But no, Fire vs Fire isn't even remotely considered "good evidence" for your argument.

ESPECIALLY not as it was in that fight.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

theirs no reason why i shouldnt.....if fire can burn fire then i dont see why not


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> You literally compared Amaterasu vs regular fire to Amaterasu vs CDB.
> 
> Sorry, but fail.
> 
> ...



do you know any fire that can burn fire??..thought not...


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> theirs no reason why i shouldnt.....if fire can burn fire then i dont see why not



for one...let's go with it being utterly impossible to "burn fire".

Secondly, let's go with fire being energy, as opposed to let's say, a stream of water, or a rock, or a ball of chakra so heavily concentrated that it literally has a mass.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> do you know any fire that can burn fire??..thought not...



"Burning fire" is a metaphor, burning fire is a physical impossibility ,thats like saying that you can take out the 'wetness' from water or some shit like that  Amaterasu is overrated as hell,stop overrating it further.


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## Deshi Basara (May 8, 2011)

Thank you for saving me the time Camorra and jameshawking  Damn it, it's so annoying that i can't rep, still


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> "Burning fire" is a metaphor, burning fire is a physical impossibility ,thats like saying that you can take out the 'wetness' from water or some shit like that  Amaterasu is overrated as hell,stop overrating it further.



i think your under rating it


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> for one...let's go with it being utterly impossible to "burn fire".
> 
> Secondly, let's go with fire being energy, as opposed to let's say, a stream of water, or a rock, or a ball of chakra so heavily concentrated that it literally has a mass.



exacly so it can do something thats utturly impossible in this and naruto world BUT you need an exampl of burn a big rock..something thats possible in both worlds?????...i think the example in the manga is good enough


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> exacly so it can do something thats utturly impossible in this and naruto world BUT you need an exampl of burn a big rock..something thats possible in both worlds?????...i think the example in the manga is good enough



No, YOU said Amaterasu acts like a wall, with that page as evidence.  And your evidence is shit.

If you want to provide evidence for that, YOU need to give evidence of it acting as a wall to something, at least, with mass.  Some object that involves matter.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> exacly so it can do something thats utturly impossible in this and naruto world BUT you need an exampl of burn a big rock..something thats possible in both worlds?????...i think the example in the manga is good enough



No,the statement that you can burn fire is contradicting itself.


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## Aleph-1 (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> i think your under rating it


I think you're overrating it. 



animeguy91 said:


> exacly so it can do something thats utturly impossible in this and naruto world BUT you need an exampl of burn a big rock..something thats possible in both worlds?????...i think the example in the manga is good enough


I will give you that Amaterasu has tremendous capability to burn through flesh, but a big rock such as a large boulder? Yeah, maybe he could burn through something that dense and inorganic with Amaterasu, after about 50 years of constant spamming of course.


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

Screw this

aegon-rokudo

He didn't "burn fire"

He didn't "block it" either.

He smothered it.

Now drop this bull.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

I can see it now,RM Naruto with mastered powers ,Bijuu dama and "That jutsu" will look that much stronger then Sasuke that Sauce will be forced to runn to old man Madara again to ask for moar power  This time Madara will agree to give Sauce GM temporary and a fraction of Juuubi's chakra


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Frankly, you did speculate on its tanking ability.


Not directly quoting my response, has failed you once again. I am not speculating how Susano would fair against anything. I am simply pointing out the fact that Sasuke's Susano has received a boost defensively.  

If he or you are using Danzo's previous feat as a bases for your argument, I am merely pointing to the fact that, that Susano will not be whats in front of Naruto. 



> He made the claim that FRS, hitting Sussano, would break it.
> 
> To which you responded that that's not a definite since his new Susanno would be a new, upgraded version from what he used against Danzo.


Exactly, is this not the truth? Is it merely speculation on my part? Can you not link a page to assess where my argument is based upon?





> So, sorry, saying "it could take this hit because of its new upgrade" is literally the definition of "speculating the tanking abilities of its new form"



I never stated it could tank it because of it's new upgrade. I am simply attacking the idea of replicating Danzo's feat, which isn't relevant anymore as Sasuke's susano has evolved sense then. That would be like me using VOE to argue Sasuke besting Naruto in his next fight.

I did state however, that blocking it with is shield it plausible. Based on Sasuke replicating a similar feat against Danzo.

Amaterasu flames 

Also you misunderstand me, I do not criticize him for using speculation. I criticized him for having nothing to support his speculation, or using support that is not exactly a fair representation of both parties. 




> And no, sorry.  It didn't eat the Shroud first.  The shroud was in full effect.


Around his fist? I beg to differ

Arm prior to Amaterasu
Amaterasu flames 
Arm moments after that
Amaterasu flames 

Notice the shroud is intact EVERYWHERE THE FLAMES IS NOT TOUCHING.

Finally
Amaterasu flames 

Once the flame touches. That was once clearly visible on his left arm in the previous panels, is no longer there. What is there however is the black flames of Amaterasu.

How else can you explain the clear regression of the shroud, and the clear spread of Amaterasu? How else can you explain Amaterasu managing to make contact with Raikage's arm, despite being covered by the shroud?

How else can explain fire that is able to burn fire?




> Though I am amused by the thought that, because flames move upward people think it eats the shroud.


No good sir, it is because the shroud is clearly no longer visible in the areas surrounded by flames, that people make that assumption.





> Flames move upward with their heat.  If you want to say it eats the shroud, provide a picture of it disappearing, clearly, without the nature of ANY FIRE explaining the appearance.


I provided several good sir, you would no that if you actually thoroughly read my post, or the manga.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Screw this
> 
> aegon-rokudo
> 
> ...



Please do not selective read.

Amaterasu flames


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

Bleh, a lot of it was me being pissed at idiots who say you can burn fire, and I transferred that rage to you.  Apologies.

About the Amaterasu:

Could that not simply be explained by it burning the body, meaning that chakra cannot flow through it normally, which is entirely reasonable to say.

As such, it could easily disrupt the shroud, but not eat it directly.

Also, in your last picture, you can clearly see the fire and the shroud existing side by side by his elbow, and possibly by his hand.  The sand screws up the picture a bit though.  But I'm fairly sure bu the hand, directly to the right, you can see the shroud on parts of his body clearly aflame.


Character testimony that makes sense both IC and OOC > flavor text.


especially when the testimony comes after said flavor text.


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

I'm sick of this idiotic conversation, frankly.  It's stupid, and inane, and only getting in the way.


Burn
–verb (used without object)
1.
to undergo rapid combustion or consume fuel in such a way as to give off heat, gases, and, usually, light; be on fire: The fire burned in the grate.
2.
(of a fireplace, furnace, etc.) to contain a fire.
3.
to feel heat or a physiologically similar sensation; feel pain from or as if from a fire: The wound burned and throbbed.

You can't burn fire, fire IS burning.  Period.  Dictionary definition.

That's not even touching on the fact that in-canon reliable witnesses say that it was smothered and not burned.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Do you seriously compare your avarege fodder Katons that canot even burn like normal fire to a fucking Bijuu nuke ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> How else can you explain the clear regression of the shroud, and the clear spread of Amaterasu? How else can you explain Amaterasu managing to make contact with Raikage's arm, despite being covered by the shroud?
> 
> How else can explain fire that is able to burn fire?



Raikage's arm is covered in lightning but lightning doesent stop fire from burning his arm  You seem to think that lightning shroud can make the Raikage magically fire proof which is BS good sir 
Oh and Amaterasu doesent burn fire, it overpowers normal flames.


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 8, 2011)

Page 22 that quick?

Anyways, Naruto has no counter to Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano.

Susano can shoot arrow at such speed, that it cannot be dodged, unless you have V2 Raikage speed. Which RM Naruto doesn't have since his speed = Minato speed and Minato's speed = V1 Raikage speed.

So only character who could dodge Sasuke Susano arrow at this moment is Madara and Raikage.

So no matter where you look at it, Naruto is screwed. He is no match against Sasuke and he knows it and so does Itachi. Naruto even admitted it.

So there is 3 manga indication that Sasuke > Naruto without Itachi's power.


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## Supersonic Strawhat (May 8, 2011)

How can he compare to...? Taking a break from insanity might help.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Page 22 that quick?
> 
> Anyways, Naruto has no counter to Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano.
> 
> ...



Naruto's speed was compared to Minato's S/T jutsu which is instantly  There is no one faster then RM Naruto, Killer Bee who spars with Raikage couldnt tell whats going on. Second, RM Naruto could just tank that little arrow like nothing, the arrow barely pearced a tree  
Amaterasu gets blocked by either nature energy shroud or Naruto Shushins out of Sasuke's sight. Tsukiyomi wont work if he enters SM. Sasuke is fucked.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> About the Amaterasu:
> 
> Could that not simply be explained by it burning the body, meaning that chakra cannot flow through it normally, which is entirely reasonable to say.



But it wouldn't have been able to make contact with Raikage's body, without first going through the shroud correct?

If you take into consideration this fact, your assessment is not plausible. 



> As such, it could easily disrupt the shroud, but not eat it directly.


Read the fallacy in your argument above. 



> Also, in your last picture, you can clearly see the fire and the shroud existing side by side by his elbow, and possibly by his hand.  The sand screws up the picture a bit though.  But I'm fairly sure bu the hand, directly to the right, you can see the shroud on parts of his body clearly aflame.


The flames have not spread to that portion, of Raikage's body. But clearly that is a gap in the shroud, where Amaterasu is present here.

Amaterasu flames 

And especially here.

Amaterasu flames 

The shroud existing side by side, is irrelevant, as the are that the flames are focused on clearly doesn't have a shroud protecting Raikage's arm.

The sand makes it hard to see the entire picture, but not the area we need to focus. 

We can just look at the shroud on Raikage's right arm, and compare it to the left and easily deduce that the shroud is clearly not present on the left.






> Character testimony that makes sense both IC and OOC > flavor text.


That is not necessarily true, but the IC supports what the OOC said as well.

But lets examine the panel you posted for a second, and once again selective reading on your part seems to be apparent.
Amaterasu flames 
"It burns whatever the eye focuses on... the black flames converge exactly on that spot"

"Then it continues to burn until their target is completely eradicated.. even if the target is flames itself"

White Zetsu (the clueless one) is assessing that Amatearsu merely smothered Sasuke's Katon. However Black Zetsu corrects him, and give further insight on what actually happened.

Once again you prove thoroughly that you are not reading the manga.


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## ThunderRaikage (May 8, 2011)

> Second, RM Naruto could just tank that little arrow like nothing


Rm naruto didn't show any tank ability



> Tsukiyomi wont work if he enters SM.


do you have some proof ?


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Take this shit to the Dome


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And especially here.
> 
> Amaterasu flames
> 
> ...



lol Wat da?  The shroud is still there  Thats not the point, the point is that lightning shroud canot protect Raikage from getting burned but its extremly effective against physical types of attacks for obvious reasons.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Raikage's arm is covered in lightning but lightning doesent stop fire from burning his arm  You seem to think that lightning shroud can make the Raikage magically fire proof which is BS good sir
> Oh and Amaterasu doesent burn fire, it overpowers normal flames.



I am not understanding your argument Camorra, which doesn't seem to be coherent with your previous entry.

I am not stating the armor makes Raikage fire proof. However I am stating that the "Ration Armor" was ineffective in shielding Raikage's body from Amaterasu.

I never proclaimed that the armor made him fire proof, if I did then please provide me the paragraph in which I stated it good sir. 

I merely accessed that Amaterasu burns through chakara, which is essentially what Katon and Raiton are at their root, thus has been my argument from the get go.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I am not understanding your argument Camorra, which doesn't seem to be coherent with your previous entry.
> 
> I am not stating the armor makes Raikage fire proof. However I am stating that the "Ration Armor" was ineffective in shielding Raikage's body from Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



Amaterasu can burn elemental and materialized chakra but so can any avarege Katon  The same way Raiton can cut materialized chakra,Katon can burn it. Raw chakra however is a different story since its pure form of energy, you canot burn that. Amaterasu just overpoweres most jutsus that are of lower level.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I am not understanding your argument Camorra, which doesn't seem to be coherent with your previous entry.
> 
> I am not stating the armor makes Raikage fire proof. However I am stating that the "Ration Armor" was ineffective in shielding Raikage's body from Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



to bad kishi never allows sasuke to actually use it in a smart way...this agrument wouldnt exist then


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> lol Wat da?  The shroud is still there  Thats not the point, the point is that lightning shroud canot protect Raikage from getting burned but its extremly effective against physical types of attacks for obvious reasons.



The shroud still occupies the same area in which the flames are on his LEFT ARM?
Ration Armor

You do now we are talking about the area Amaterasu was occupying not the rest of the body.

I think you need to check the definition of physical attacks. As Amatearsu is indeed a very physical attack. In fact it was noted as the the strongest "Physical attack"

Link removed

How is being burned by flames not a physical sensation? Fire damages through touch, through contact good sir.


Your argument is getting ridiculous and you should stick to troll type entries in the future. Or the occasions when you actually manage to put some thought into a post before pushing the send button.

Four responses later, and you have still failed to clearly home it where you are going with your argument.


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> In fact it was noted as the the strongest "Physical attack"



okay, now that is lulzy.

There are at least 10 different ways you can define "physical attack".  Therefore, at least 10 different ways you can define "strongest/best physical attack".

it's a ridiculously badass attack, but, for example, how does it deal with AoE?  Clearly there are better AoE attacks.  How does it stack up in terms of, for example, ease of use?

For example, what about Chidori Eiko, or Chidori Nagashi?  What about Hiraishin,  which can clearly be used offensively?  or Pein's jutsu?

Or how about Madara's teleporting.

It certainly can be called the "best attack" in a few ways, deservedly so, but there is no "best jutsu".  Period.  And if there is, we haven't seen it yet.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> The shroud still occupies the same area in which the flames are on his LEFT ARM?
> Ration Armor
> 
> You do now we are talking about the area Amaterasu was occupying not the rest of the body.
> ...



By physical attacks i meant Taijutsu based attacks, ok i will try one more time slowly and hope you will understand....
Fire attacks damage through the high temperature, how can lightning protect you in this case ?  Do you think that Lightning can magically extinguish fire now ? 
And i think you should stick to the advice in your sig


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> to bad kishi never allows sasuke to actually use it in a smart way...this agrument wouldnt exist then



Sasuke does indeed utilize Amatersu in a smart way. 

There is nothing really to Amaterasu than merely pointing and shooting. If it successfully lands on the target than indeed it was the right play.

Thus far Amaterasu has only failed to it's it's target in Sasuke's possession once. As far as the short coming of the jutsu, as far as the inconsistency in the rate in which in burns, etc. etc.. Well their are lots of pretty theories to excuse it, but the only really plausable conclusion is that it acts according to plot.

Amaterasu is a more advance Katon, and as such it has the same draw backs as Katon. Katon suffers from the fact, it is a jutsu whose entire purpose is to kill or disfigure in a child manga.  

Katon unlike the rest of the chakara elemental wheel, has little to no usage defensively, nor can it be used as support. 

Kishi opened up some idea on how one can get more usage out of Katon. Warming the atmosphere was a start, but Kishi seems to have dropped Kirin. Kasagutchi is also a good start, but it will still not be able to make contact with others(especially those with plot shields).

Avatar the last air bender, had this same problem. Fire was depicted as the least versatile element of all the other bending abilities. It was lethal or disfiguring on contact, and only on 1 or two occasions was a person actually hit by flames directly.

Kishi expanded on Sasuke's Raiton because unlike Katon, it can actually make contact with an individual without disfiguring them or harming them lethally.


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## stockholmsyndrome (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Page 22 that quick?
> 
> Anyways, Naruto has no counter to Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano.


And Sasuke Has no counter to FRS or Frog Kata's and there is little proof that Naruto can't counter Susanoo or Amaterasu


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## Mathias124 (May 8, 2011)

Orxon said:


> At the start of Part 1, Sasuke was obviously considered superior to Naruto, vastly so, in physical combat. He was faster, smarter and a damn sight more talented.
> 
> Yet as the story continued and Sasuke abused his sharingan, he's relied less and less on taijutsu and more on his kekkei genkai. Meanwhile, not only did Naruto achieve Sage Mode which boosted his physical abilities tremendously and actually made him formidable but he now has RM on top of that and is seemingly comparable (or even superior)to the fourth.
> 
> ...



*Who needs basic attributes when you got Hax.*

If i was the 2nd hokage i'd enslave the uchiha, force the women to breed siblings constantly.

Then have them kill each other, one of them awakens 2 S rank jutsus.

Proceed to chop off his arms and legs, mindfuck him with genjutsu and strap him to the back of a Jounin and own the entire ninja world.

Danzou style.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

stockholmsyndrome said:


> And Sasuke Has no counter to FRS or Frog Kata's and there is little proof that Naruto can't counter Susanoo or Amaterasu



you could say the opposite is true to..little proof both ways


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## BlinkST (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Page 22 that quick?
> 
> Anyways, Naruto has no counter to Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi and Susano.





stockholmsyndrome said:


> And Sasuke Has no counter to FRS or Frog Kata's and there is little proof that Naruto can't counter Susanoo or Amaterasu


If it was as simple as that, Naruto wouldn't conclude he couldn't defeat Sasuke at his current level, nor would Madara had sent Sasuke to the summit to perfect Susanoo and equal Naruto's progress if just Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were enough. Zetsu and Madara sure didn't think they were. 









They are supposed to be equal. Sasuke himself probably had a wake-up call back then when he decided to focuse on Susanoo. I doubt the fight would be written so poorly as to be so one-sided.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> By physical attacks i meant Taijutsu based attacks, ok i will try one more time slowly and hope you will understand....
> Fire attacks damage through the high temperature, how can lightning protect you in this case ?  Do you think that Lightning can magically extinguish fire now ?


Taijutsu harms an opponent by making contact correct? So does Amaterasu.

Fire damages you through high temperature, but it does this my transferring heat into your body, which requires close proximity, which may include contact.

Being damaged by fire is a physical sensation, it attacks the nerves that induces pain much like a blow from a punch would. The pain may be different certainly, and the after effects my the different. But both are still physical sensations.

But let me drop the MR. SMART GUY ACT, and at least try to understand where you are coming from.

You argue that the shroud is designed to block attacks from SOLID OBJECTS, not composed from Plasma(the composition of fire THAT IS HOT ENOUGH).

But on the contrary, first and foremost what does this have to do with my assessment that. Amaterasu burns chakara? 

Second of all, lighting is as much plasma as fire good sir. As both when hot enough are capable of produce, gas that my be ionized enough to produce plasma.

Raikage armor on two occasions was capable of thwarting Sasuke's Ration.

Link removed

I don't see how you can even fathom where I think you are coming from, as it doesn't make sense and you have no sufficient evidence to support your claim.


> And i think you should stick to the advice in your sig


Says the guy who has build is representation among the masses a troll?


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Blinx said:


> If it was as simple as that, Naruto wouldn't conclude he couldn't defeat Sasuke at his current level, nor would Madara had sent Sasuke to the summit to perfect Susanoo and equal Naruto's progress if just Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi were enough. Zetsu and Madara sure didn't think they were.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Best post since page..............aw who gives a fuck.


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## ?_Camorra_? (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Taijutsu harms an opponent by making contact correct? So does Amaterasu.
> 
> Fire damages you through high temperature, but it does this my transferring heat into your body, which requires close proximity, which may include contact.
> 
> ...





?_Camorra_? said:


> Amaterasu can burn elemental and materialized chakra but so can any avarege Katon  The same way Raiton can cut materialized chakra,Katon can burn it. Raw chakra however is a different story since its pure form of energy, you canot burn that. Amaterasu just overpoweres most jutsus that are of lower level.



Amaterasu burn chakra but so does Katon in general, what the hell is your point then ? The black flames canot be extinguished by normal means thats why they arent dependant on oxygen to burn and most ninjutsu canot counter them. The black flames do not devour lightning ,thats just silly


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> okay, now that is lulzy.


How so, was it not stated word for word on that panel? But that is more to emphasize indeed Amaterasu is a physical attack. It damages on contact much like taijutsu, etc. etc.



> There are at least 10 different ways you can define "physical attack".  Therefore, at least 10 different ways you can define "strongest/best physical attack".


Oh? Named those 10 ways, because I would argue both have the same thing in common at some point. All of them produces damage based on physical contact? Thus is why they are called physical attacks.



> it's a ridiculously badass attack, but, for example, how does it deal with AoE?  Clearly there are better AoE attacks.  How does it stack up in terms of, for example, ease of use?


Cease and deists your argument good sir, as that was not my intentions when posting that quote. I merely wanted to emphasize that indeed Amaterasu is indeed a physical attack. 



> For example, what about Chidori Eiko, or Chidori Nagashi?  What about Hiraishin,  which can clearly be used offensively?  or Pein's jutsu?


I fail to see where you are going with this?

And all of those are classified as ninjutsu, but only the two formers are actually attack. Harashin along with jutsu like Madara's S/T are more akin to support or supplementary. Which means it can be utilized in a persons offense, but by itself it does not damage the opponent.






> It certainly can be called the "best attack" in a few ways, deservedly so, but there is no "best jutsu".  Period.  And if there is, we haven't seen it yet.


Not my purpose for posting the quote, as I agree with you, I do not believe it is necessarily the strongest physical attack. I only utilized that quote to emphasis that indeed it is very much a physical attack.


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## MS81 (May 8, 2011)

like everyone said, they are equals. Sasuke and Kakashi are my top 2 favs and even I know that Naruto and Sasuke are ='s!!!


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

?_Camorra_? said:


> Amaterasu burn chakra but so does Katon in general, what the hell is your point then ? The black flames canot be extinguished by normal means thats why they arent dependant on oxygen to burn and most ninjutsu canot counter them. The black flames do not devour lightning ,thats just silly



Katon burns chakara? Let's put that assumption to the test to the test.

Link removed

Link removed

Link removed

Assumption failed.

They do in fact indeed devour lightning, as devours fire or anything that it touches.
Link removed

Link removed

"It continues to burn to the target is completely eradicated, even the target is fire itself."

You claim that devouring lightning is absurd, but it is no more absurd than flames smothering/devouring/burning etc. etc. flames.

Here's an idea. Cammora start a fire, it doesn't have to be a big one (unless you want to) and then take a flame thrower and see if flames can put out flames.

Amaterasu consumes anything it touches fire, lightning, Tsunade's tits, etc. etc. The fact that one cannot put it out, is only the second property of Amaterasu. It is an indistinguishable flames that burns, what ever it touches.

Devouring is just a metaphor for stating it burns what ever it touches. It should not be taken literally as flames do not have a digestive system.


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 8, 2011)

†_Camorra_† said:


> Naruto's speed was compared to Minato's S/T jutsu which is instantly  There is no one faster then RM Naruto, Killer Bee who spars with Raikage couldnt tell whats going on. Second, RM Naruto could just tank that little arrow like nothing, the arrow barely pearced a tree
> Amaterasu gets blocked by either nature energy shroud or Naruto Shushins out of Sasuke's sight. Tsukiyomi wont work if he enters SM. Sasuke is fucked.



No, your wrong and you will always be wrong until you use manga. 

V2 Raikage Speed > [RM Naruto Speed = Minato Speed = Killer Bee Speed = V1 Raikage Speed]

Its just that simple.  

Do you have evidence that the "arrow barely pierced a tree." If you don't then concede before its to late.

Amaterasu cannot be blocked, once it hits Naruto, his dead. Since you know, Amaterasu cannot be turned off. Naruto is not fast enough to dodge Amaterasu, especially without knowledge. Only Raikage, the fastest character in the manga was able to dodge it.

Tsukiyomi will work if Naruto goes into SM. I don't see why it shouldn't.


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

This argument has strayed too far away from the OP.

OP was saying basically that Sasuke hasnt really improved his own strength in any way and doesnt try to anymore while Naruto has gone to another level with his own strength which is true. You could actually take away Kyuubi from Naruto and he would actually become STRONGER unlike Sasuke in which you take away his gifts, even Juugo would bitch him around. 

Sasuke has greatly neglected his own skills even after he has been humbled so many times when he fights someone with his own strength (Itachi, Naruto, Bee, Kages at the summit) but instead of trying to make up for losing to someone in base and actually try to improve himself in the department...he just becomes a spammer of his gift. He abused his gift so bad he became blind in a day. If he was strong with his own power, that wouldnt have happened.

Naruto at 13 took on a Tailed Beast.
At sixteen, was standing toe-to-toe with the strongest Tailed-Beast with his own strength. And he had neither his gift(Kyuubi) nor summons to help him out.

He says he wants to defeat Naruto at full-strength but his eyes are the only thing making that possible. What if Itachi wasnt the one who massacred the clan and he didnt have any back-up eyes to get? What if he didnt know Madara? Konoha wouldve had Itachi's body, not Sasuke and he would be a blind man walking today.

Sasuke gotta pull up his socks and train because bleeding from the eyes aint cool no more


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

"the arrow barely pearced a tree"

Really?
Link removed

Seriously Camorra?


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## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, your wrong and you will always be wrong until you use manga.
> 
> V2 Raikage Speed > [RM Naruto Speed = *Minato Speed* = Killer Bee Speed = V1 Raikage Speed]



Wait, Someone is faster than instantly teleporting?

lol


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Naruto's SM body is harder than stone. Sus' arrow should be tanked relatively easily if it couldnt fully pass through a tree.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Naruto's SM body is harder than stone. Sus' arrow should be tanked relatively easily if it couldnt fully pass through a tree.



it waas wood release and narutos body is tough but still human..


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Naruto's SM body is harder than stone. Sus' arrow should be tanked relatively easily if it couldnt fully pass through a tree.



Uh. that tree factoring the density, and considering the fact that is MUKOTON (the same wood to engage/restrain the Kyubi) I would beg to differ.

Considering that chakara rods manage to penetrate is SM skin with ease, I would guess you are wrong in your assumption.


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Uh. that tree factoring the density, and considering the fact that is MUKOTON (the same wood to engage/restrain the Kyubi) I would beg to differ.
> 
> Considering that chakara rods manage to penetrate is SM skin with ease, I would guess you are wrong in your assumption.



Or maybe chakra rods are sharper than Susanoo's arrows :amazed(and its not as if the rod went deep into Naruto either)
Mokuton...is wood...REGARDLESS. Mokuton restraining something? So? A strong rubber-strap could restrain me...doesnt mean it can tank a knife piercing it.


----------



## Garrod Ran (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Uh. that tree factoring the density, and considering the fact that is MUKOTON (the same wood to engage/restrain the Kyubi) I would beg to differ.
> 
> Considering that chakara rods manage to penetrate is SM skin with ease, I would guess you are wrong in your assumption.



power by life force which naruto has cover rm+sm=god mode


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

Garrod Ran said:


> power by life force which naruto has cover rm+sm=god mode



by your logic why should naruto even dodge any1s attacks???...apparently a chakra arrow shooting at incredable speeds wouldnt even make him flich


----------



## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Naruto's SM body is harder than stone. Sus' arrow should be tanked relatively easily if it couldnt fully pass through a tree.



While your point is correct, somewhat, your argument isn't.

It passed easily through the tree, but it was stopped by the stone bridge.

hence, harder than a stone is fairly sure to be resistant to it/be able to tank it.



oh, Mokuton argument.

Mokuton doesn't restrain Kyuubi through force.  It just has "owns Kyuubi" as part of its properties.  if it was about pure force, then Doton would be more effective at restraining the Kyuubi.

Mokuton just is special that way.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> While your point is correct, somewhat, your argument isn't.
> 
> It passed easily through the tree, but it was stopped by the stone bridge.
> 
> hence, harder than a stone is fairly sure to be resistant to it/be able to tank it.



Lol oh, I see.


----------



## Garrod Ran (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> by your logic why should naruto even dodge any1s attacks???...apparently a chakra arrow shooting at incredable speeds wouldnt even make him flich



yes that is correct that rm+sm=god mode wouldn't have to dodge a Uchiha attacks


----------



## vagnard (May 8, 2011)

At this point Naruto vs Sasuke is a match between an evangelion (Susano) vs ssj (RM) so I don't consider factors like speed or strength relevant anymore.


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (May 8, 2011)

jameshawking said:


> Wait, Someone is faster than instantly teleporting?
> 
> lol



Teleportation is a jutsu.

I was referring to his speed, such as Sunshin.


----------



## Eternal Pein (May 8, 2011)

We still have no idea what EMS will grant Sasuke, that's how.


----------



## jameshawking (May 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Teleportation is a jutsu.
> 
> I was referring to his speed, such as Sunshin.



Wait, so hiraishin, a jutsu, doesn't count as speed.

but sunshin, a jutsu, counts as speed?


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Or maybe chakra rods are sharper than Susanoo's arrows :amazed(and its not as if the rod went deep into Naruto either)


I like how you assessed that just by merely looking, but...........
Why leave survivors

I don't know those arrows look awfully sharp to me..

And the sharpness of an object is not the only determining factor behind something penetrating another. The force behind the object is another, and large one at that.

And i dare you to argue that those chakara rods had more force behind them, than Susano's arrows.   



> Mokuton...is wood...REGARDLESS. Mokuton restraining something? So? A strong rubber-strap could restrain me...doesnt mean it can tank a knife piercing it.


Yes, which was strong enough to restrain the 4 tails.

Why leave survivors

You are not as strong as the 4 tails good sir.

But using your example. If a small snake knife is capable of piercing through your skin, utilizing merely human force. Wouldn't you expect a 15 foot arrow, with enough force backing to punch a sizable whole in concrete, to be capable of piercing your skin?


----------



## Garrod Ran (May 8, 2011)

naruto will use that arrow as a toothpick


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

Garrod Ran said:


> naruto will use that arrow as a toothpick



Yea and Naruto will be the Sausage.


----------



## Garrod Ran (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yea and Naruto will be the Sausage.



most likely he will dodge the attack


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

Garrod Ran said:


> most likely he will dodge the attack



But you clearly just said he didn't need too.

"yes that is correct that rm+sm=god mode wouldn't have to dodge a Uchiha attacks"

Is Naruto going to block bullets arrows like superman with his bare chest or what?


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> I like how you assessed that just by merely looking, but...........
> Why leave survivors
> 
> I don't know those arrows look awfully sharp to me..
> ...



1. Nagato shot his chakra rod out a machine. Bow vs Machine! Which one shoots with more impact? We dont know and I dont care.

2. Lols...nice job linking a page where Kyuubi was actually BREAKING the wood.

3. 
-  Why leave survivors
- Why leave survivors

So! How about we save oneanother energy and agree to disagree. You think he cant tank it...I think he can! Yay!


----------



## Garrod Ran (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But you clearly just said he didn't need too.
> 
> "yes that is correct that rm+sm=god mode wouldn't have to dodge a Uchiha attacks"
> 
> Is Naruto going to block bullets arrows like superman with his bare chest or what?



maybe


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> 1. Nagato shot his chakra rod out a machine. Bow vs Machine! Which one shoots with more impact? We dont know and I dont care.
> 
> 2. Lols...nice job linking a page where Kyuubi was actually BREAKING the wood.
> 
> ...



he also use those chakra rods like swords and it pierced naruto skin...are you saying that pain can create more force by swinging then sasukes arrows can???


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> 1. Nagato shot his chakra rod out a machine. Bow vs Machine! Which one shoots with more impact? We dont know and I dont care.


That wasn't the only time he was pierced good sir. 

Link removed



> 2. Lols...nice job linking a page where Kyuubi was actually BREAKING the wood.


He was in the process of breaking it, but didn't quite manage to get thus far before being sealed.

However compare the density and the thickness between the branch holding the Kyubi, and the one altering the trajectory of the arrow?

Link removed



> 3.
> -  Link removed
> - Link removed
> 
> So! How about we save oneanother energy and agree to disagree. You think he cant tank it...I think he can! Yay!


You assessment doesn't make sense. As you are clearly shown a panel in which something utilizing less force was capable of penetrating SM Naruto's skin. Yet you still argue Naruto could tank something of a much larger size, weight, and carries much more force behind it?

Yes If I were you I would cease my argument immediately.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That wasn't the only time he was pierced good sir.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



1. Naruto has superhuman strength.
2. Wood is wood. That was 4-tails. Full-Kyuubi being restrained by that is laughable.
3. My argument makes sense. I just dont feel like arguing with you of all people that never quits and would argue with me for the next 3 days & we would keep repeating our arguments. I will not agree with you and you will not agree with me. Simple.


----------



## MS81 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> This argument has strayed too far away from the OP.
> 
> OP was saying basically that Sasuke hasnt really improved his own strength in any way and doesnt try to anymore while Naruto has gone to another level with his own strength which is true. You could actually take away Kyuubi from Naruto and he would actually become STRONGER unlike Sasuke in which you take away his gifts, even Juugo would bitch him around.


I beg to differ, Sasuke would revert to the sasuke from chapter 308 if that were the case...which by the way can defeat both suigetsu and Juugo!!!


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> 1. Naruto has superhuman strength.
> 2. Wood is wood. That was 4-tails. Full-Kyuubi being restrained by that is laughable.
> 3. My argument makes sense. I just dont feel like arguing with you of all people that never quits and would argue with me for the next 3 days & we would keep repeating our arguments. I will not agree with you and you will not agree with me. Simple.



lol i guess in your mind the first person to leave is right..well have a good day


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> lol i guess in your mind the first person to leave is right..well have a good day



Glad you could read my mind.


----------



## BlinkST (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> This argument has strayed too far away from the OP.
> 
> OP was saying basically that Sasuke hasnt really improved his own strength in any way and doesnt try to anymore while Naruto has gone to another level with his own strength which is true. You could actually take away Kyuubi from Naruto and he would actually become STRONGER unlike Sasuke in which you take away his gifts, even Juugo would bitch him around.
> 
> ...


This is some of the most hypocritical--Why are you guys always discounting Sasuke's dojutsu? It's not exactly a crime to make use of what you have. Furthermore, Kishimoto outed in the fanbook and manga that the abilities exhibited by the 6 realms are dojutsu. 



Nagato in other words, relied almost _*exclusively*_ on his dojutsu in fights, yet I have yet to see people give him flak for it. If anything, people sing his praises in their sleep. Naruto without the fox couldn't possibly be stronger. Maybe when he's 45, but without the fox, his accomplishments wouldn't be possible. He wouldn't be able to even learn Rasenshuriken. You argue that Naruto would be good without his power when that's the very thing he's going to be relying on going forward.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> 1. Naruto has superhuman strength.


What a coincidence, so does Susano.


> 2. Wood is wood. That was 4-tails. Full-Kyuubi being restrained by that is laughable.



The 4-tails is still quite powerful good sir, wouldn't you agree?

Also Mukoton, may have been utilized in a similar way against the full thing by Hashirama. Case in point, Mukuoton is clearly not simply just regular wood.


> 3. My argument makes sense. I just dont feel like arguing with you of all people that never quits and would argue with me for the next 3 days & we would keep repeating our arguments. I will not agree with you and you will not agree with me. Simple.


It doesn't as you are implicating good sir that Susano arrows do not pact more of a punch than the rods utilized to pierce Naruto?

That tree was certainly much thicker and much tougher than Naruto's skin. 

I would love for you to keep repeating your argument, maybe you would actually be more credible. I would also loved it if you supported it with manga panel, and implicate that at least you are utilizing more than just your "thinking brain." 

You first jump upon to the idea, that the rods are sharper despite no proof. Now it is this.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Blinx said:


> This is some of the most hypocritical--Why are you guys always discounting Sasuke's dojutsu? It's not exactly a crime to make use of what you have. Furthermore, Kishimoto outed in the fanbook and manga that the abilities exhibited by the 6 realms are dojutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> Nagato in other words, relied almost _*exclusively*_ on his dojutsu in fights, yet I have yet to see people give him flak for it. If anything, people sing his praises in their sleep. Naruto without the fox couldn't possibly be stronger. Maybe when he's 45, but without the fox, his accomplishments wouldn't be possible. He wouldn't be able to even learn Rasenshuriken. You argue that Naruto would be good without his power when that's the very thing he's going to be relying on going forward.



I'm not saying it is a crime for Sasuke to use sharingan, not at all . Im saying that he abused the living shit outta it despite knowing and feeling the side-effects of using it(talking about MS here) and is in truth...pretty weak compared to alot of power-houses around in the manga right now without the sharingan. The fox helped Naruto to accomplish alot, I agree...but he stopped relying on it to be his ultimate power and instead decided to grow stronger on his own. Sasuke neglects to do that ever since he got MS which Sucks. Sasuke was mah boy  lol.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> I'm not saying it is a crime for Sasuke to use sharingan, not at all . Im saying that he abused the living shit outta it despite knowing and feeling the side-effects of using it(talking about MS here) and is in truth...pretty weak compared to alot of power-houses around in the manga right now without the sharingan. The fox helped Naruto to accomplish alot, I agree...but he stopped relying on it to be his ultimate power and instead decided to grow stronger on his own. Sasuke neglects to do that ever since he got MS which Sucks. Sasuke was mah boy  lol.



naruto constantly useing the nine-tails...and i mean contantly..iits mixing with his chakra all the time....super healing all the time...more powerful body all the time.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> naruto constantly useing the nine-tails...and i mean contantly..iits mixing with his chakra all the time....super healing all the time...more powerful body all the time.



He stopped *relying* on Kyuubi. Kyuubi's chakra mixing with his...super healing, etc...all happens regardless of what Naruto wants/wanted.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> He stopped *relying* on Kyuubi. Kyuubi's chakra mixing with his...super healing, etc...all happens regardless of what Naruto wants/wanted.



but its still happening...so even if naruto doesnt want to hes rely on it...you shoulda stopped at they both use their gifts instead of being so biased twards naruto


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## BlinkST (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> I'm not saying it is a crime for Sasuke to use sharingan, not at all . Im saying that he abused the living shit outta it despite knowing and feeling the side-effects of using it(talking about MS here) and is in truth...pretty weak compared to alot of power-houses around in the manga right now without the sharingan. The fox helped Naruto to accomplish alot, I agree...but he stopped relying on it to be his ultimate power and instead decided to grow stronger on his own. Sasuke neglects to do that ever since he got MS which Sucks. Sasuke was mah boy  lol.


That's just a weak argumentation. You can't judge how he uses his own abilities in certain situations, which almost sounds like "selective reading". What exactly is the point of contention? I don't understand it. Sasuke is equal to Naruto, so you are underestimating his power. 

Naruto never stopped relying on the fox entirely. While he stopped transforming, the things he was able to accomplish wouldn't be possible without the fox's chakra, cut and dry. 

Link removed

Jutsu people would take like 20 years to master, he could complete in a few days. Without the fox, things like the perfected sage mode and Rasenshuriken would be unimaginable. Naruto's power is attributable to fox as much as Sasuke's power is attributable to his eyes. Now he's embracing the fox, flat out saying he needs it. But Nagato and Naruto slide by?


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## MS81 (May 8, 2011)

Iphronz, hate to break it to you sasuke was at 308 was stronger than 4-tails.


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## Garrod Ran (May 8, 2011)

MS81 said:


> Iphronz, hate to break it to you sasuke was at 308 was stronger than 4-tails.



Ino stronger than 6-tail manga fact


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Blinx said:


> That's just a weak argumentation. You can't judge how he uses his own abilities in certain situations, which almost sounds like "selective reading". What exactly is the point of contention? I don't understand it. Sasuke is equal to Naruto, so you are underestimating his power.
> 
> Naruto never stopped relying on the fox entirely. While he stopped transforming, the things he was able to accomplish wouldn't be possible without the fox's chakra, cut and dry.
> 
> ...



Alright...I see what you're saying. Naruto got blessed with a chakra boost....but what did the fox contribute other than that in Naruto having to actually learn the things he learned? Its Naruto who had to learn perfect stillness for SM, its Naruto who had to learn to add the Fuuton to his FRS, its Naruto who had to learn to balance his rotation for Rasengan. The fox is basically the guy in the corner giving the boxer water but the boxer is the one doing all the work.

Sasuke has to hurt "ever cell in his body" to just keep up with the kages. Naruto would not have to hurt himself in any way to keep up with most/any of them.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Alright...I see what you're saying. Naruto got blessed with a chakra boost....but what did the fox contribute other than that in Naruto having to actually learn the things he learned? Its Naruto who had to learn perfect stillness for SM, its Naruto who had to learn to add the Fuuton to his FRS, its Naruto who had to learn to balance his rotation for Rasengan. The fox is basically the guy in the corner giving the boxer water but the boxer is the one doing all the work.
> 
> Sasuke has to hurt "ever cell in his body" to just keep up with the kages. Naruto would not have to hurt himself in any way to keep up with most/any of them.



lol your sad..naruto couldnt keep up with any kage without bthe nine-tails...it has helped him since he was an infant ..he has no clue how to live with out it..and recently a whole arc was made to have him master it to gues what....use it more


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> lol your sad..naruto couldnt keep up with any kage without bthe nine-tails...it has helped him since he was an infant ..he has no clue how to live with out it..and recently a whole arc was made to have him master it to gues what....use it more



To use the sharingan requires a conscious effort.
To have Kyuubi's chakra...leak into Naruto requires....? Him being alive?
Why are you on Naruto's ass for something he has absolutely no control of? And btw, to master the fox Naruto had use what? His own power.

And if you think Naruto cant keep up with any kage without the Kyuubi...dont ever visit the battledome and I mean...NEVER.

You guys are attacking like without Kyuubi Naruto would have absolutely no chakra in his body or something . You guys dont know what is Naruto's natural chakra levels so stop assuming shit


----------



## BlinkST (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Alright...I see what you're saying. Naruto got blessed with a chakra boost....but what did the fox contribute other than that in Naruto having to actually learn the things he learned? Its Naruto who had to learn perfect stillness for SM, its Naruto who had to learn to add the Fuuton to his FRS, its Naruto who had to learn to balance his rotation for Rasengan. The fox is basically the guy in the corner giving the boxer water but the boxer is the one doing all the work.
> 
> Sasuke has to hurt "ever cell in his body" to just keep up with the kages. Naruto would not have to hurt himself in any way to keep up with most/any of them.


That doesn't matter, nor does the boxer & water dude analogy apply. The speed of the accomplishments would have been impossible. The fox allows him to grow faster than most other people. Without it, he would merely be average. That means no practically casual use of clones, rasenshuriken, perfected sage--the works. 

I don't understand the relevence as far as Sasuke's drawbacks when using his jutsu.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> To use the sharingan requires a conscious effort.
> To have Kyuubi's chakra...leak into Naruto requires....? Him being alive?
> Why are you on Naruto's ass for something he has absolutely no control of? And btw, to master the fox Naruto had use what? His own power.
> 
> ...



im on his ass because you saying he doesnt rely on it when he does...just because he cant turn it off like the sharangan doesn t mean he doesnt rely on it just as much as sasuke reys on his eyes


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Alright, alright. I get what you guys are saying and Im sure you guys get what Im saying too. They both needed their gifts to become strong. Thats basically what we're both trying to say.


----------



## BlinkST (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Alright, alright. I get what you guys are saying and Im sure you guys get what Im saying too. They both needed their gifts to become strong. Thats basically what we're both trying to say.


You go the extra mile and nitpick Sasuke using his own gifts.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

Blinx said:


> You go the extra mile and nitpick Sasuke using his own gifts.



Thanks for making me see the light!  Lolz.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Thanks for making me see the light!  Lolz.



well then lets all hold hands and sing


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## Jak N Blak (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> well then lets all hold hands and sing



Lol. Sure, why not


----------



## Skywalker (May 8, 2011)

Surprised this is still open.


----------



## Moonraker_One (May 8, 2011)

Personally, I think it'd be funny if Sasuke actually knocked Naruto out cold...only to die from complications from overstressing his body from EMS techniques.


----------



## KuzuRyuSen (May 8, 2011)

Nope. Even making Sasuke defeat Danzo is just a failed attempt to hype the Uchiha.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 8, 2011)

KuzuRyuSen said:


> Nope. Even making Sasuke defeat Danzo is just a failed attempt to hype the Uchiha.



You do know that Danzo was also hyping the Uchiha right? As if the Uchiha needed anymore of that.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You do know that Danzo was also hyping the Uchiha right? As if the Uchiha needed anymore of that.



why do ppl hate the uchiha clan ?


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## jimbob631 (May 8, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> why do ppl hate the uchiha clan ?



Because the uchiha fanbase acts like its utterly absurd to say Sasuke is as strong as the main character of the manga.


----------



## Skywalker (May 8, 2011)

Depends who is on top.


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## animeguy91 (May 8, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> Because the uchiha fanbase acts like its utterly absurd to say Sasuke is as strong as the main character of the manga.



their pretty much equal....im a uchiha fan not because of any abilitys but mostly becuase i find their story and beliefs really interesting


----------



## Excalibur (May 9, 2011)

Shintenbukuro, Probably the most truthful post I've seen all day.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 9, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Oh, you are under the impression that i give a crap?How cute
> 
> Oh and LAMO at the "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all"
> 
> ...



listen i dont dislike you..but your kinda startign a big mess, all for you pleasure....bashing should be done to a min.......what your doing is just outright challaging ppl..I would use the term  a troll but i hate calling ppl names..just plz stop


----------



## animeguy91 (May 9, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Actually no.I didn't go overborad with "Naru will stomp him in two seconds" or anything like that.
> 
> And i didn't go into bashing the character.I didn't go all like "He's piece of garbage" or anything.
> 
> I didn't say anything that wasn't true.Sascake WILL loose.I hope you realize that.



but your intentionally causing problems just like theey were....maybe worse since your trying to justify it with the 2 classic responses......he did it so i can do it to and im not doing it as bad so its o.k..despite the fact that it causes the same effect no matter if you go over baord or not


----------



## animeguy91 (May 9, 2011)

jaknblak said:


> Lolz.



you sem to not understand that while were talking about fictional character..that doesnt change the fact that we like them for somereason..eitheer belief or abilitys and when you bash them your also bashing the reasons we like the character and so we bash bak..especially since the fact that were on this furum means we care more then normal..pretty useless since we could spend this time talking about something relevent


----------



## Deshi Basara (May 9, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> but your intentionally causing problems just like theey were....maybe worse since your trying to justify it with the 2 classic responses......he did it so i can do it to and im not doing it as bad so its o.k..despite the fact that it causes the same effect no matter if you go over baord or not



Im not trying to justify anything.I simply corrected you.Saying that Sascake will loose is not bashing the character.


And again if you have a problem with someone bashing you favorite, you are in the wrong place.


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 9, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> you sem to not understand that while were talking about fictional character..that doesnt change the fact that we like them for somereason..eitheer belief or abilitys and when you bash them your also bashing the reasons we like the character and so we bash bak..especially since the fact that were on this furum means we care more then normal



I'm just a by-stander dude. Lol. I'm not involved in this.


----------



## IpHr0z3nI (May 9, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> I actually agree with you, I probably do have a little bit of a bias because I don't like Sasuke that much and I shouldn't generalize.  Itachi fans, Jiraiya fans, Naruto fans, and especially Minato fans can all get annoying but I get most bothered by Sasuke fans (Minato is a close second though).  And you are right about people who just bash Sasuke, I just feel like some of the Sasuke fanbass is a lot more aggressive when it comes to defending him, almost like they've been insulted even by suggesting something even minor about him.


You been a member on these boards to recognize the trend. Haters make a thread about Sasuke, intending to rile up his fan base. The threads gets locked after two or three days. There is peace, until another troll decides to rekindle the flames of war.

The opening, has not responded a single time sense the opening pages of his thread. Furthermore, he is 5k post in and I have yet to recognize his name in the library. Likely he is a visitor from another section.

Sasuke's fan base are a lot more aggressive in defending him, because haters like to bash him. Post any something bad about any major character you want. I assure their are going to be fans to defend him.

And Sasuke's flaws are very well known. The only reason why a person would post it, is to try to get attention, or rally the hater bandwagon.

Sasuke fans do not go around bragging about his greatness, as the manga does a very good job of displaying it. Ask how many threads I made in 3 years, and I can count them on one hand.

But the majority of my post seem to come from silly threads like these, with no other purpose to to start a flam bait.

Sasuke hasn't even been in the manga for 50+ chapters, their is little to nosing about him to talk about, yet you see a thread about him or two, mostly negative with no other purpose to belittle his character.


----------



## animeguy91 (May 9, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Im not trying to justify anything.I simply corrected you.Saying that Sascake will loose is not bashing the character.
> 
> 
> And again if you have a problem with someone bashing you favorite, you are in the wrong place.



but everything extra was added for that reason


----------



## Jak N Blak (May 9, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You been a member on these boards to recognize the trend. Haters make a thread about Sasuke, intending to rile up his fan base. The threads gets locked after two or three days. There is peace, until another troll decides to rekindle the flames of war.
> 
> The opening, has not responded a single time sense the opening pages of his thread. Furthermore, he is 5k post in and I have yet to recognize his name in the library. Likely he is a visitor from another section.



The OP repped my first post on the thread on page 4. He's listening. I think, lol.


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## Deshi Basara (May 9, 2011)

I agree with IpHr0 for once.But just something:



> Sasuke's fan base are a lot more aggressive in defending him, because haters like to bash him. Post any something bad about any major character you want. I assure their are going to be fans to defend him.



Haterz like to bash every character of importance 

And nobody has discussed Sascake's character flaws in this thread yet.




> Sasuke fans do not go around bragging about his greatness, as the manga does a very good job of displaying it. Ask how many threads I made in 3 years, and I can count them on one hand.




Some of them do actually.


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## jimbob631 (May 9, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You been a member on these boards to recognize the trend. Haters make a thread about Sasuke, intending to rile up his fan base. The threads gets locked after two or three days. There is peace, until another troll decides to rekindle the flames of war.
> 
> The opening, has not responded a single time sense the opening pages of his thread. Furthermore, he is 5k post in and I have yet to recognize his name in the library. Likely he is a visitor from another section.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you for the most part, I agree that most members of a fanbase tend to aggressively defend their favorite character but it gets pretty annoying when a fan of Sasuke for example tries to show how RM naruto is much worse than Sasuke by using physics equations.  But yeah like I said I agree with you and while I don't agree with you on a lot of stuff pertaining to the manga think your a fair poster and good at debating.


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## animeguy91 (May 9, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I agree with IpHr0 for once.But just something:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



exactly instead you bashing him with no reasons or facts and discrinating his fans into 1 kind of behavior....this whole time youve been bashing more about sasukes fans the sasuke himself


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 9, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I agree with IpHr0 for once.But just something:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Apart from the few Sasuke zealots, most do not.

Sasuke has done nothing in the past 50 chapters worth talking about.

I assure you the ratio to positive Sasuke threads vs. Negative is largely one sided in favor of the later.


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## Closet Pervert (May 9, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> lol your sad..naruto couldnt keep up with any kage without bthe nine-tails...it has helped him since he was an infant ..he has no clue how to live with out it..and recently a whole arc was made to have him master it to gues what....use it more


Actually, his whole life up to at least the age 13, maybe up to the part where he finally learned to control Kyuubi chakra recently, Kyuubi has actually been quite a burden to Naruto, messing up his chakra control. It may have been part of his incompetence in early part 1.

It also prevented him from using Ni Dai Sennin Mode.


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## Deshi Basara (May 9, 2011)

animeguy91 said:


> exactly instead you bashing him with no reasons or facts and discrinating his fans into 1 kind of behavior....this whole time youve been bashing more about sasukes fans the sasuke himself



I didn't insult them, called them trolls or anything like that.And again i didn say anything that wasn't true.I simply quoted some of them and said that they tend to go over the top. 



> Apart from the few Sasuke zealots, most do not.
> 
> Sasuke has done nothing in the past 50 chapters worth talking about.
> 
> I assure you the ratio to positive Sasuke threads vs. Negative is largely one sided in favor of the later.



The problem comes from the fact that those "few" tend to be, maybe the most active.

I agree.


Maybe, i don't keep track.But i've noticed that some Sascake haterz maybe a little obsessed with bashing Sascake.


Not me though  I barely bother with Sascake bashing threads.I only interfere if members somehow involve Naru or other characters i give a rats ass about.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 9, 2011)

jimbob631 said:


> I don't disagree with you for the most part, I agree that most members of a fanbase tend to aggressively defend their favorite character but it gets pretty annoying when a fan of Sasuke for example tries to show how RM *naruto is much worse than Sasuke by using physics equations.*


Never seen that one before, but I can guarantee you such actions are minimal. 

But the majority of the individuals who dislike Sasuke, use that tired "it's because of the fanbase."

As shintebukuro stated, the majority of the individuals come on the boards disliking Sasuke. There are a few veteran members of the Sasuke hate committee, but I can assure you a major portion of them are newer members to the library.

I never even thought the exclusive (Sasuke fanbase was ever that large) most Sasuke fans are Uchiha fans and or Itachi fans. And Itachi doesn't get nearly the amount of flak Sasuke gets.






> But yeah like I said I agree with you and while I don't agree with you on a lot of stuff pertaining to the manga think your a fair poster and good at debating.


thank you good sir.


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## IpHr0z3nI (May 9, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I didn't insult them, called them trolls or anything like that.I simply quoted some of them and said that they tend to go over the top.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PikaCheeka (May 9, 2011)

Post 16:



PikaCheeka said:


> Thread based around assumption that is pretty much guaranteed to be false.
> 
> If a shitstorm arises out of this, it will be rather sad.





> If a shitstorm arises out of this, it will be rather sad.





> If a shitstorm arises out of this, it will be rather sad.





> If a shitstorm arises out of this, it will be rather sad.





> If a shitstorm arises out of this, it will be rather sad.




After over five hundred posts, we are now in the depths of a reading-comprehension depression.


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## Deshi Basara (May 9, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> 畜生道 said:
> 
> 
> > No they are not. If they were, Sasuke would be winning or at least competing in most of the positive polls.
> ...


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## Spanktastik (May 9, 2011)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Beating someone via tie, still implicate you can beat them. If that is what Naruto meant by that statement then he we have worded it that way.
> Kishimoto never implicated they were equals, in fact his actions dictate later that he didn't think he could match sasuke, via wanting to obtain control of the Kyubi to match Sasuke.
> 
> You can disagree with the statement, but please do not try to rephrase what has clearly been stated. Naruto declared himself inferior to Sasuke at that particular time, point blank period.



Sorry but if you put value in those phrases. Sure back then Naruto said he could not defeat Sasuke. But this thread is about the future, what lays ahead. And funny we have this phrase which you complete ignore. 

If they fight again in the future they will both died. Donnt try to search anything different behind it, if they fight again they simply will both died. So they are basically equals, they also as of late have been presented as Senju/Uchiha, 2 sides of the same medal. Its very clear they are equal. 

Sasuke wanker is in denial.


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 9, 2011)

Whats the point arguing about this when the manga itself said Naruto can't beat Sasuke. Which is why Itachi gave his powers to Naruto. 

Sasuke > RM Naruto
RM Naruto + Itachi's Power > EMS Sasuke


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## Face (May 9, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> EMS Sasuke = RM Naruto
> RM Naruto + Itachi's Power = MS Sasuke + Itachi's Eyes



Fixed


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## stockholmsyndrome (May 9, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Whats the point arguing about this when the manga itself said Naruto can't beat Sasuke. Which is why Itachi gave his powers to Naruto.



And Sasuke could not beat Naruto thats why he took Itachi's eyes solely to defeat Naruto Naruto and Sasuke will always be portrayed as equals as it stands

Base Naruto = Three Tomoe Sasuke
RM Naruto = EMS Sasuke

As for the Itachi power I can't see why Naruto would need an actual power when Naruto is equally as strong and skilled as Sasuke


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## MCHammerdad (May 9, 2011)

HEHE when you can kill with a stare, then you know your haxxed.



Naruto is gonna need:

A: Help against Sasuke

B: Itachi's crow against sasuke (same as 1)

C: Get a genjutsu counter (he has none)

D: Grow some balls. (recent chapters don't count, anyone can stand up to the creepy bug guy and iruka.)


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 9, 2011)

stockholmsyndrome said:


> And Sasuke could not beat Naruto thats why he took Itachi's eyes solely to defeat Naruto Naruto and Sasuke will always be portrayed as equals as it stands
> 
> Base Naruto = Three Tomoe Sasuke
> RM Naruto = EMS Sasuke
> ...



Actually your wrong. Sasuke took Itachi's eye so that he doesn't go blind. 

Next time use the manga.


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## stockholmsyndrome (May 9, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Actually your wrong. Sasuke took Itachi's eye so that he doesn't go blind.
> 
> Next time use the manga.



Really?
blood on regenerated/phased arm

I suggest you read the manga Sasuke very clearly states why he took Itachi's eyes which means he could not take down Naruto without EMS


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## Kakashi Hatake (May 9, 2011)

stockholmsyndrome said:


> Really?
> blood on regenerated/phased arm
> 
> I suggest you read the manga Sasuke very clearly states he took Itachi's eyes which means he could not take down Naruto without EMS



"I want to destroy Naruto with my full power"

Within context, its means Sasuke doesn't want to fight Naruto right now. His already half blind. So he asks Madara to get him Itachi's eyes to his not blind anymore. Then he can fight Naruto with full power. 

Who would want to fight the Kyuubi half blind.  
Well maybe Itachi, since his invincible.


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## Kdol (May 9, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> "I want to destroy Naruto with my full power"
> 
> Within context, its means Sasuke doesn't want to fight Naruto right now. His already half blind. So he asks Madara to get him Itachi's eyes to his not blind anymore. Then he can fight Naruto with full power.
> 
> ...



your just pure win!!!!!!! just like your Profile PIC...........


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## stockholmsyndrome (May 9, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> "I want to destroy Naruto with my full power"
> 
> Within context, its means Sasuke doesn't want to fight Naruto right now. His already half blind. So he asks Madara to get him Itachi's eyes to his not blind anymore. Then he can fight Naruto with full power.
> 
> ...



It was simple realisation Sasuke desires to destroy Konoha and by that action he knows Naruto will oppose him and from the initial clash he knew just the MS was not enough at best they would just kill each other like Naruto stated and he believes EMS will give him the advantage over Naruto where he can survive a clash with Naruto and complete his objective.


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## vjpowell (May 9, 2011)

It was once said that true strength comes from the mind not the body. Sasuke pretty much uses the Sharingan like a drug to enhance his skills. He becomes completely reliant on it but Sasuke has gotten stronger the only problem is that his new strength comes at a high price. So Sasuke's strength is there but it doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.


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## animeguy91 (May 9, 2011)

vjpowell said:


> It was once said that true strength comes from the mind not the body. Sasuke pretty much uses the Sharingan like a drug to enhance his skills. He becomes completely reliant on it but Sasuke has gotten stronger the only problem is that his new strength comes at a high price. So Sasuke's strength is there but it doesn't last nearly as long as it used to.



i think sasukes mind is strong enough...but what do you judge as a strong mind??


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## edangs (May 9, 2011)

next chapter will be sasuke vs remaining edo's (itachi, nagato, jins)


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## Forlong (May 9, 2011)

Blinx said:


> Sasuke hasn't gotten worse, but improved. His reflexes are obviously on the level of Raikage with the shroud, which by itself actually puts him past Minato's level.


Sasuke is not faster than Minato.  It clearly says that A's speed is on par with Minato's.  So Sasuke is close to Minato's speed; not faster.  You might want to _read_ the pages you use to back up your claims.  Just a tip.



> Unless Naruto has reflexes on the Raikage's level, Sasuke has nothing to worry about, so this isn't a done deal. Bee caught Sasuke while he had his back turned and distracted. It's not much of a speed feat. Sasuke again, otherwise has reflexes comparable to his brother.


Let's take a look at Naruto's speed, shall we?
I've got a bad feeling about this

So Naruto and Sasuke have roughly the same level of speed, so that doesn't really matter.



Angevelinka said:


> I'd dare to say that when it comes to comparing them, Sasuke only improves his Kekkei Genkai because it's his best ability and when it comes to defeating enemies - everything he needs to improve.
> Naruto may improve speed, taijutsu, get Sage Mode and new rasengans, but even if he has million of cards and they all are aces, Sasuke only needs to have one that has written 'Joker' on it to make those million useless. it's quality over quantity.


Funny you should say that, when it's Sasuke that has more completely useless jutsu than Naruto.  At Naruto's current level, only four of Sasuke's jutsu are even close to being a threat to him: Karin, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o.  Everything else Sasuke has in his arsenal is a complete joke against Naruto, at least the way he uses them.

In comparison, let's look at the jutsu Naruto is able to use that would be a threat to Sasuke: Rasengan (or at least some of the variants), FRS (it is a completely different jutsu from the Rasengan), Shadow Clones, and Frog Katas.  The same number of jutsu would be useful to Naruto against Sasuke.  However, _all_ Sasuke's useful jutsu are harmful to him, while only one or two of Naruto's are harmful to him.  This is because Naruto knows how to use a jutsu to it's fullest.  He can make use of jutsu that Sasuke would find useless because all Sasuke does it hit something with lightning until it breaks.  Naruto has the advantage of quality, not Sasuke.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Baby-chan, how can you not see Sasuke's clear superiority?
> 
> At the begging of part 2 Sasuke was so far ahead of Naruto in just about every way imaginable that at the very best Naruto's SM would have allowed him to fight evenly with base Sasuke. And chances are even with SM Naruto would have still lost, that's how huge the gap was at the beginning of part 2.
> 
> ...


Wow!  There is so much wrong with this post it isn't even funny.

1: How can we not see Sasuke's superiority?  Well, basic logic and reasoning usually helps.  How has Sasuke done against other shinobi with high levels of chakra?  Oh yeah, got his ass handed to him, _all three times_.  The fact that Sasuke isn't able to learn from his mistakes makes Naruto a better fighter than him by default.  When Sasuke improves, it's only bit by bit; while Naruto improves in leaps and bounds.  This is because Naruto knows what he's doing, Sasuke does not.  An idiot with immense power is still an idiot.

2: Sasuke can't even tie his shoe-laces without the Sharingan.  He'd get his ass handed to him, if he went up against Naruto without using it.  The reason for this is obvious, Sasuke has the Sharingan.  It's a powerful tool.  Sasuke isn't dumb enough not to use it.  If he's going to fight someone, he's going to use it.  It's the basis of his skills, so without it he'd get his ass kicked.

3: Good Lord are you bias!
I've got a bad feeling about this
Naruto said they were both going to die, if they fought again.  That would be a stalemate, thus not a victory for Naruto.  Are you going to deny manga canon to continue to live under such delusions?  I may personally think that Sasuke is a complete joke in comparison to Naruto, but I don't deny that manga canon declares them as equals.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Zetsu had no way of knowing about Minato's involvement. So obviously he would think that Naruto had far greater control over the Kyuubi than he actually does. Furthermore, Zetsu did not know of Sasuke's abilities with MS. So the best Zetsu could do was judge Sasuke from his performance against Itachi. Of course Zetsu also knew that Sasuke lost the cursed seal and Orochimaru. And even than Zetsu only said, "... he *might* be stronger than you now, Sasuke."
> HERE


Irrelevant.  Zetsu is a very intelligent person.  He knows how the MS is activated and knows that Sasuke had access to those abilities.  He also knew how Sasuke fights.  Through those, he speculated that Naruto was stronger than Sasuke.  However, he wasn't absolutely sure because of unknown factors, which is why he didn't use absolutes in his statement.

If you want the real evidence of who was stronger, compare Sasuke vs Bee to Naruto vs Pain.  There is no question that Naruto did _far_ better than Sasuke against an opponent that was probably far stronger than Sasuke's.



> Besides this, SM Naruto really doesn't have anything base Sasuke can't handle. Sasuke sharingan + kenjutsu would ensure a close range victory. Genjutsu would ensure a midrange victory. And Kirin would ensure a long range victory.


At the end of part one, Sasuke had trouble keeping track of Naruto _with_ his Sharingan.  Naruto's speed only improves with Sage Mode, so that would only make it harder for Sasuke to keep track of him.  Bare in mind, that's _with the Sharingan_.  Without it, Sasuke would be toast.

Kirin is one of Sasuke's most effective techniques, but Naruto's speed and durability are factors that work against that.  We still know to little about Kirin to know how effective it would be, but the fact that Sasuke holds off on using it is good enough to prove it's not entirely reliable.



> Anything Naruto could throw at him base Sasuke has a counter. But Naruto does not have a reliable counter to Genjutsu.


Sorry, but Naruto already developed a strategy for going up against Itachi's genjutsu.  When that didn't work, he improved on it.  And since that didn't work, he's probably improved on it again.  Now, since Sasuke's skill in genjutsu is nowhere near as good as Itachi's, Naruto being able to keep Itachi from using his _strongest_ genjutsu against him means that Sasuke's genjutsu will probably be completely useless.



AKmyWaffle said:


> Naruto can only summon one frog at a time to my knowledge. So why would Sasuke have all that much trouble keeping up with the summons? Furthermore Naruto needs to sacrifice some of his blood to summon a frog. This alone would limit the number of frogs he can summon.


No as no.

Jiraiya could summon one boss frog.  However, Naruto now has a hundred times the chakra Jiraiya had, so he could summon a hundred times more.





> Naruto stated that he needs to control the Kyuubi in order to fight Sasuke. Naruto stated that he needed an upgrade before he could fight Sasuke. How can you ignore this?


Dude, remember what happened the last time Naruto said he and Sasuke were equals?  Oh yeah, Sasuke went frickin' insane for power.  Naruto knows that Sasuke is going to try to be as powerful as possible.  It only makes sense that he does the same.  Also, let's not ignore the fact that Naruto didn't seem to think he needed training with this new power to be able to beat Sasuke.
I've got a bad feeling about this
So what?  Is he now saying that Sasuke is a wimp?


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## Hiroshi (May 9, 2011)

Basically at this point this is a Sasuke v. Naruto match-up. Please feel free to refer to the Battledome. PM me with any questions.


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