# Shichibukai vs Admirals



## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

Location: Marineford
Distance: 300m
Mindset: Bloodlust

Shichibukai
-Mihawk
-Doflamingo
-Hancock
-Teach(with Gura fruit, preskip)
-Law
-Jimbei
-Moria

vs

Admirals
-Aokiji
-Kizaru
-Fujitora

who wins?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 2, 2015)

Mihawk can defeat any single admiral on his own with around mid-high difficulty on average.
Doflamingo and Gura Teach (before the timeskip) can probably edge out a win against Akainu/Aokiji and defeat the others with very high-extreme difficulty.
Everyone else gets steamrolled by the admiral that's not occupied. Afterward, he'll help one of the admirals defeat Mihawk and then go on to kill Doflamingo/Teach as a trio.

So the admirals take this one with around high difficulty, I'd say.


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## zoro (Jul 2, 2015)

Fuji stalls Mihawk

Aokiji stalls Teach and Doffy

Kizaru violates the rest then helps Kuzan, and the three of them defeat Mihawk

Admirals high diff


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## Coruscation (Jul 2, 2015)

Admirals. We've been over this; quality > quantity.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 2, 2015)

Mihawk defeat Kizaru.
Teach stalls Aokiji.
Rest defeat Fujitora.

Then they help Teach.


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## Imagine (Jul 2, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> *Mihawk can defeat any single admiral on his own with around mid-high difficulty on average*.
> Doflamingo and Gura Teach (before the timeskip) can probably edge out a win against Akainu/Aokiji and defeat the others with very high-extreme difficulty.
> Everyone else gets steamrolled by the admiral that's not occupied. Afterward, he'll help one of the admirals defeat Mihawk and then go on to kill Doflamingo/Teach as a trio.
> 
> So the admirals take this one with around high difficulty, I'd say.


 

Mihawk is not mid diffing ANY admiral


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## Beckman (Jul 2, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Mihawk is not mid diffing ANY admiral



Nougat, you should know better than to argue with that guy


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 2, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Mihawk defeat Kizaru.
> Teach stalls Aokiji.
> Rest defeat Fujitora.
> 
> Then they help Teach.



this is probably how it goes down


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

Yeah, people has to remember teach manage to hold off Sengoku&Garp with Teach and his crew pre-skip. Even causing some damage to Sengoku himself, and garp joined during the later end of the fight.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 2, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> Location: Marineford
> Distance: 300m
> Mindset: Bloodlust
> 
> ...



Mihawk beats Kizaru high diff
Doflamingo + Law beat Fujitora extreme diff
Rest team up and beat or at least stall Aokiji

Shichis win high diff


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 2, 2015)

Imagine said:


> Mihawk is not mid diffing ANY admiral



When I say that, it more so refers to greater end of mid-diff and lesser end of high-diff. 
In my opinion, Kizaru stands in the middle of the admirals, with Akainu/Aokiji on the top and Fujitora/Ryokugyu on the bottom. I've always rated the admirals lower than many people because I don't think they're the strongest force in the entire WG - just the marines - and there's the fact that admiral-level opponents consist of Yonkou FMs and Sabo, who are still quite a bit weaker than their leaders. World Government's main force consists of the marines, but it's plausible that Gorousei/Kong are even stronger than the admirals. However, my placement of Mihawk could be wrong if he ends up getting defeated by one of Blackbeard's crew and not being Zoro's final benchmark.


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## Kaiser (Jul 2, 2015)

The Shichibukais will win

- Mihawk defeats Kizaru

- Doflamingo+Kuma should be able to stall if not defeat Fujitora. If needed either Law or Jimbei should come to help them win, with Moria being a bonus

- Hancock and Teach should be able to stall if not defeat Kuzan. If not either Law or Jimbei should come to help them win, with Moria being a bonus


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## mr sean66 (Jul 2, 2015)

Hmm

if the matchups go in warlords favour they got this.


Mhawk fight kizaru they cancel eachother out

Fujitora fights Doflamingo and law

Poor Aokiji has to fight the rest.
Blackbeards quake fruit is good against aokijis ice


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## Tenma (Jul 2, 2015)

Shichis win solidly.


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## Freechoice (Jul 2, 2015)

Admirals low diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 2, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> When I say that, it more so refers to greater end of mid-diff and lesser end of high-diff.



*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 








*Spoiler*: __ 







Just letting you know you're full of shit. But whatever.


King Itachi said:


> I've always rated the admirals lower than many people because I don't think they're the strongest force in the entire WG - just the marines - and there's the fact that admiral-level opponents consist of Yonkou FMs


Yonko ~ Admirals > Yonko FMs. Get over it.


King Itachi said:


> and Sabo



*Spoiler*: __ 










King Itachi said:


> World Government's main force consists of the marines, but it's plausible that Gorousei/Kong are even stronger than the admirals.


The Elders have no fucking feats or hype. And I seriously doubt that Kong right now is stronger than the Admirals, at *best* he's around Old Sengoku or Rayleigh's level IMHO.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 2, 2015)

How's it going, Tea? Long time no see.


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## Imagine (Jul 3, 2015)

Beckman said:


> Nougat, you should know better than to argue with that guy





King Itachi said:


> When I say that, it more so refers to greater end of mid-diff and lesser end of high-diff.
> In my opinion, Kizaru stands in the middle of the admirals, with Akainu/Aokiji on the top and Fujitora/Ryokugyu on the bottom. I've always rated the admirals lower than many people because I don't think they're the strongest force in the entire WG - just the marines - and there's the fact that admiral-level opponents consist of Yonkou FMs and Sabo, who are still quite a bit weaker than their leaders. World Government's main force consists of the marines, but it's plausible that Gorousei/Kong are even stronger than the admirals. However, my placement of Mihawk could be wrong if he ends up getting defeated by one of Blackbeard's crew and not being Zoro's final benchmark.


There is no mid diff at all with any top tier fight. 

Akainu alone is being portrayed as one of the strongest characters in this generation. 

Aokiji can match him for 10 days.

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with assuming Mihawk is stronger than admirals but for him to be capable of mid diffing one then he would need to be stronger than Whitebeard himself.

You're saying an admiral can duke it out with Mihawk for a bit but once Mihawk gets serious they stand no chance against him. Think about for a minute.


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## Amol (Jul 3, 2015)

Mihawk vs Kizaru stalemate. They cancels each other out.
Gura Teach requires High diff to put him down so he is completely capable stalling one Admiral. He has even a feat on his name for doing same .
Doflamingo+ Hancock + Law + Jinbei> Admiral .
Though Admiral who defeats Gura Teach will probably clears the rest.
So Admirals wins with extreme diff.
And yeah Mihawk mid diffing any Admiral is a bullshit.


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## barreltheif (Jul 3, 2015)

The shichibukai win for sure.
Mihawk ~ Akainu.
Gura Teach ~ Fujitora.
Doffy + Hancock + Law +Jinbei + Moria beat Kizaru and then help the others win.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 3, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> The shichibukai win for sure.
> Mihawk ~ Akainu.
> Gura Teach ~ Fujitora.
> Doffy + Hancock + Law +Jinbei + Moria beat Kizaru and then help the others win.



It's Aokiji not Akainu


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## trance (Jul 3, 2015)

Kuzan ~ Mihawk
Borsalino ~ Doffy + Teach
Issho > the rest

Admirals win with about high difficulty.


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## barreltheif (Jul 3, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> It's Aokiji not Akainu




Good point. Then Mihawk>=Aokiji. Aokiji is a better matchup for Mihawk than Akainu is.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 3, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Good point. Then Mihawk>=Aokiji. Aokiji is a better matchup for Mihawk than Akainu is.



Actually Aokiji is a better matchup for Teach since the gura pretty much counters his ice fruit rendering it impossible to freeze the gura user.


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## barreltheif (Jul 3, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Actually Aokiji is a better matchup for Teach since the gura pretty much counters his ice fruit rendering it impossible to freeze the gura user.




That too. Regardless, the shichibukai win.


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## Six (Jul 3, 2015)

Akainu was taking on most of Whitebeard's commanders by himself, 3 admirals is just overkill.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 3, 2015)

Admirals win, Mihawk alone is not enough to win. Mid (high) - high (low) diff win for admirals. Half of the warlords will die in the crossfire.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 4, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Akainu was taking on most of Whitebeard's commanders by himself, 3 admirals is just overkill.



Please show those panels of Akainu *taking on* the WB commanders.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 4, 2015)

Mihawk alone can probably stall 2 admirals, while the others gangbang the shit out of the remaining admiral


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## Six (Jul 4, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Please show those panels of Akainu *taking on* the WB commanders.








Last time I checked, Oda said the commanders were equal in strength too.


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## MYJC (Jul 4, 2015)

Admirals. Though they get pushed to high/very high diff due to Mihawk and Teach.


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## X18999 (Jul 4, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Last time I checked, Oda said the commanders were equal in strength too.



You should check again.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 4, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Last time I checked, Oda said the commanders were equal in strength too.



All i see is Vista and Marco attacking Akainu and then Marco blocking Akainu in his tracks.
Rest of the commanders are shown behind Marco doing nothing except the 1st panel where they fired "lolcanons" at a logia.


I'm pretty sure Oda never said anything like that.


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## Six (Jul 4, 2015)

X18999 said:


> You should check again.


"Reader: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts

Oda: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same strength. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups. the 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander."





Bernkastel said:


> All i see is Vista and Marco attacking Akainu and then Marco blocking Akainu in his tracks.
> Rest of the commanders are shown behind Marco doing nothing except the 1st panel where* they fired "lolcanons" at a logia.
> *
> 
> I'm pretty sure Oda never said anything like that.


Yes, that is equal to doing something. These were members of the strongest pirate crew. They were trying to stop Akainu from getting Luffy. Curiel said that there was no stopping him. Regardless of of what lolattack they did, they could not do shit to him.

 Here we see Akainu standing before the commanders and Crocodile telling them to do what they want.
Note Curiel standing in that group.

Now look at this

Curiel laying there beaten by Akainu

Go ahead and try to deny that despite the fact that the commanders were in his way and the fact that one of them was laying on the ground burning, that they didn't challenge him.

Yeah, I guess you're right, Oda never said anything like that.

"Reader: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts

Oda: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same strength. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups. the 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander."


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## trance (Jul 4, 2015)

When Akainu stared down the commanders and subsequently attacked them all by his lonesome, it was to suggest that he is strong enough to go up against almost all 16 commanders and one ex-Warlord and respectably stand his ground until reinforcements arrived. They're not weak by any means but he's just _that_ powerful.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 4, 2015)

Commanders are not equal  in strength


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## Six (Jul 4, 2015)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Commanders are not equal  in strength



Classic Ohara Libray

Oda: They are equal in strength.
Ohara Library: He doesn't really mean they're equal in strength.

Regardless of what feats show us, if the author says so, then it is so.


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## Bernkastel (Jul 4, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Yes, that is equal to doing something. These were members of the strongest pirate crew. They were trying to stop Akainu from getting Luffy. Curiel said that there was no stopping him. Regardless of of what lolattack they did, they could not do shit to him.
> 
> Here we see Akainu standing before the commanders and Crocodile telling them to do what they want.
> Note Curiel standing in that group.
> ...



Can you post the source of that interview?Cause i find it hard to believe that Namur for example is equal to Marco.

Back on Akainu and the commanders. Curiel and any lower commader would get fodderised by Akainu i never disagreed with that. But saying he can take them on all including Marco,Vista and Jozu is absurd.None of these scans show that he can take all of them alone. 
And how is doing nothing equals doing something? 

Literally non of them except Vista and Marco did anything.


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## Kaiser (Jul 4, 2015)

Trance said:


> When Akainu stared down the commanders and subsequently attacked them all by his lonesome, it was to suggest that he is strong enough to go up against almost all 16 commanders and one ex-Warlord and respectably stand his ground until reinforcements arrived. They're not weak by any means but he's just _that_ powerful.


You mean like how Sabo was implied to be able to hold off Fujitora, alongside 2 vice-admirals(with 1 being veteran) and other multiple marines at the same time?


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## Six (Jul 4, 2015)

Bernkastel said:


> Can you post the source of that interview?Cause i find it hard to believe that Namur for example is equal to Marco.
> 
> Back on Akainu and the commanders. Curiel and any lower commader would get fodderised by Akainu i never disagreed with that. But saying he can take them on all including Marco,Vista and Jozu is absurd.None of these scans show that he can take all of them alone.
> And how is doing nothing equals doing something?
> ...



You'll have to give me some time. That was from an SBS. Im busy, but will look for it later.

You're still not getting it though, there are no "low commanders". Just because they did not get as much screen time does no equate to them being lower on the chain. The division aren't numbered off of strength.

Regardless of whether it makes sense or not, Oda stated it and when it comes to One Piece, his word is the law. If you're going to disregard what Oda said about the commanders in the subs, then you're going to have to disregard everything Oda has ever stated in any SBS ranging from birthdays to child designs to X-Drakes father being a former marine. You can't accept one and disregard the other just because it doesn't fall in line with what you believe. 

Im not telling you this specifically but for all the people in ol who conveniently disregard certain statements if it doesn't fall in line with their preconceived notions.

You're not paying attention, Marco and Vista went straight at him because close combat is their preferred method, we barely know shit about the other commanders. We know from Curiel's fight that he uses guns alongside that transvestite dude. We saw Curiel a commander attacking Akainu and his attacks not doing shit to him, commenting on how he is a monster. Unless you consider Curiel a retard for trying to fight a known logia with no haki then I don't know what to say.

Not too long after we saw him confront all the commanders bar Jozu I think, the next time we saw Akainu still in the condition he was in when he confronted them, with the addition that Curiel had been completely fodderized and not too long after Coby stopped them

The leaders of the strongest pirate crew couldn't do jack shit to Akainu except giving him some minor injuries which he regenerated from. This is canon.


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## Kaiser (Jul 4, 2015)

The SBS was about their rank, not their power. It was said they have equal authority in their respective fleet, not equal power. Vista and Marco were for example portrayed to be above other commanders like Curiel and other guys when they were all failing to damage Akainu until they intervened with Akainu acknowledging the damage and being annoyed by their haki

Akainu got the help of half the marines shortly after trying to take them on. He couldn't have handled all of them when Vista and Marco were shown to be able to damage and push him back by themselves even when he was bloodlusted


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## Bernkastel (Jul 4, 2015)

@Law Trafalgar Pretty much what Kaiser said.

Anyway i would really like to see that SBS when you have time so take your time


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## Kaiser (Jul 4, 2015)

It's in the SBS volume 59: 

D: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts

O: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. *All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same rank*. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups and the division number does not indicate strength. The 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander.


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## Coruscation (Jul 4, 2015)

If you genuinely ever thought every WB Commander has the same strength you just weren't paying any attention to the manga =/


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 4, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> If you genuinely ever thought every WB Commander has the same strength you just weren't paying any attention to the manga =/



People are stupid man.

I remember  having this same discussion on another fourm the stuff people said was just crazy. It's like outside  source comes before the manga.

It's not even  a discussion that marco, and Jozu have much better feats and hype then other commanders. Like the WG can  stand up to 16 marco level opponents +whitebeard to begin with.


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## Six (Jul 4, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> It's in the SBS volume 59:
> 
> D: About the Whitebeard Pirates, if there are pirates from the "Whitebeard ally groups", is there a possibility of one of them becoming a commander of the real Whitebeard Pirates itself? Or are the commanders all from the real Whitebeard Pirates from the beginning? P.N. amanuts
> 
> O: Ok, I'll explain a little about the Whitebeard Pirates. First, captain Whitebeard and the 16 commanders. *All 16 commanders, despite numbers and ages have the same rank*. All the same. Whitebeard Pirates are just split in 16 groups and the division number does not indicate strength. The 43 ally pirate ships are not any part of the Whitebeard Pirates and are usually all just scattered everywhere living their own little lives. Yet they are loyal to Whitebeard, and help him in desperate times. They are like that. In Ace's case, the Spade Pirates were destroyed, and all the members joined the Whitebeard Pirates, so he was able to become a commander.



 Guess you were right, I used a shitty translation. But come on lets be honest, the Whiteboard pirates were said to be the strongest pirate crew if memory serves correctly. You think Whiteboard would have weaklings lead his 1000+ men. Akainu standing up to all of them, not getting hurt by 2 of the elites and even trolling one of them is one of the greatest feats and is some massive hype for him as well. None of the warlords have been portrayed to be a beast on the level of that man.


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## trance (Jul 4, 2015)

Kaiser said:


> You mean like how Sabo was implied to be able to hold off Fujitora, alongside 2 vice-admirals(with 1 being veteran) and other multiple marines at the same time?



>Vice Admirals



And yes. I think that also applies to Sabo. I wouldn't bet in favor of Akainu against them. Just that he's enough of a powerhouse to go up against them by himself and _not get instantly obliterated_. I'd be woefully disappointed if they would immediately get whooped in such situations.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 4, 2015)

Imagine said:


> There is no mid diff at all with any top tier fight.
> 
> Akainu alone is being portrayed as one of the strongest characters in this generation.
> 
> ...



I think Mihawk would require at least high difficulty to defeat the likes of Akainu/Aokiji, considering they're the strongest admirals. I'd already stated that Kizaru is around high-diff - maybe a bit higher/lower - but I didn't really say he gets mid-diffed. The only admirals that get mid-diffed by Mihawk are Fujitora/Ryokugyu, in my opinion; that's solid mid-diff, too. He would still need to bring out his full power to defeat any of them, but I just don't see him taking any major injuries while defeating them. When I think of mid-diff, it means someone is using their full power, yet they gain little-to-no injuries in the process. Once high difficulty comes around, that means injuries and exhaustion begin to show.


As for the response to my friend Tea, I agree that C3 are stronger than Marco, but most people exaggerate the disparity and make it seem as if there's a night-and-day difference between them. He was portrayed to be on the same level as the admirals and even Marineford Whitebeard, who I think is vastly overrated on OL/OPB. Marco can still defeat Kizaru, though the latter has favorable odds in my eyes. Either victor would require very high-extreme difficulty. Kuzan would potentially have the easiest time against Marco's type of power, but it's also under the assumption that he'd be able to catch him in deep freeze without distractions. Akainu/Aokiji would need at least high-diff to defeat him. However, I do think Marco is around equal to Fujitora from what we've seen, and that fight can really go either way.

Despite Fujitora showing a nice display of his power, he never actually overwhelmed Sabo. They had a few clashes here and there, with neither of them showing even a moderate example of indefinite superiority. I do think Fujitora is stronger than Sabo, but the latter isn't too far off from him and will be stronger once Mera is mastered.


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## Gohara (Jul 6, 2015)

The Shichibukai win with mid to high difficulty.

Blackbeard, Law, and Moriah vs. Aokiji- Blackbeard, Law, and Moriah win with mid to high (closer to mid than high) difficulty.  Blackbeard alone can potentially defeat Aokiji.  I give Aokiji the edge in speed, agility, and combat ability- but I would give Blackbeard the edge in physical strength, defense, and Devil Fruit abilities.  Moriah is far below Admiral level, but I would say Law is only a league below Admiral level.  I think Law can put up an okay fight against an Admiral.  So Law and Moriah combined should be able to put up a good fight against an Admiral and as such I would say they help put the fight well in their favor.

Doflamingo, Hancock, and Jinbe vs. Kizaru- Doflamingo, Hancock, and Jinbe win with low to mid difficulty.  Doflamingo alone can potentially defeat Kizaru.  Both are all around skilled.  Doflamingo is incredibly versatile.  Hancock is all around skilled as well and shouldn't be far off from Admiral level.  I would say Doflamingo is around Admiral level and Hancock and Jinbe combined are around Admiral level.  So combined they should be around twice as powerful as an Admiral.

Mihawk vs. Fujitora- Mihawk wins with around high difficulty at most.  Luffy is around or close to Admiral level, and Zoro isn't much weaker than Luffy, while still likely being 2-3 major Arcs away from being around or close to Mihawk's level.

Of course, this is all just IMO.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 6, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> The only admirals that get mid-diffed by Mihawk are Fujitora/Ryokugyu, in my opinion; that's solid mid-diff, too.





King Itachi said:


> Mihawk is portrayed as stronger than Kizaru and couldn't defeat Vista with anything less than mid-diff.


So Issho and Green Bull are equal to Vista. I'll concede to that point of yours. 


King Itachi said:


> As for the response to my friend Tea, I agree that C3 are stronger than Marco, but most people exaggerate the disparity and make it seem as if there's a night-and-day difference between them. He was portrayed to be on the same level as the admirals and *even Marineford Whitebeard.*





King Itachi said:


> Marco can still defeat Kizaru, though the latter has favorable odds in my eyes. Either victor would require very high-extreme difficulty. Kuzan would potentially have the easiest time against Marco's type of power, but it's also under the assumption that he'd be able to catch him in deep freeze without distractions. Akainu/Aokiji would need at least high-diff to defeat him. However, I do think Marco is around equal to Fujitora from what we've seen, and that fight can really go either way.


A battle between Marco and an Admiral basically boils down to attrition. One that he'll never win because guess why? An Admiral has solid top tier stats and insane firepower, while Marco just has insane regen, in a one on one battle Marco will be the first to go down no matter what.


King Itachi said:


> Despite Fujitora showing a nice display of his power, he never actually overwhelmed Sabo. They had a few clashes here and there, with neither of them showing even a moderate example of indefinite superiority. I do think Fujitora is stronger than Sabo, but the latter isn't too far off from him and will be stronger once Mera is mastered.


Issho was stalling for time and couldn't go all out without wiping out the population (just look at what happened to PH when Akainu and Aokiji went all out), yet he still had a notable edge over that Ace clone. And don't worry, while Sabo will surpass him, he'll never be able to treat Issho the same way that Issho humiliated him.


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## Dunno (Jul 7, 2015)

If it's sunny, the admirals win. Mihawk will be able to beat his opponent, but the rest of them will lose to the remaining two. 

If it's cloudy, Moria removes everyone's shadows and puts Mihawk's shadow in Teach and the rest of the shadows in Mihawk. You then have two people able to beat admirals quite comfortably, and the Shichibukai win.


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## Gohara (Jul 7, 2015)

Jigen said:


> An Admiral has solid top tier stats



If you don't mind me asking, how are you rating the Admirals' stats in comparison to Marco's?  I don't really see anything suggesting that their physical strength and general speed (or any other stats) is any greater than Marco's, and in fact when Marco and Kizaru clashed Marco overpowered Kizaru.



Jigen said:


> and insane firepower, while Marco just has insane regen



From what we've seen so far from Marco, which isn't much, they do have more destructive capabilities.  That doesn't necessarily mean they have more effective abilities, though.  Also, if an Admiral has better destructive capabilities and Marco has better defense (when you include his regeneration abilities), how do you rate which one is more important?



Jigen said:


> Issho was stalling for time



This doesn't really add up to Fujitora holding back, though.  If, say, Lucci was only fighting pre time skip Luffy to give himself something to do- he would still have to go all out to fight on par with him.  Additionally, Sabo's mindset wasn't exactly one of defeating Fujitora.  He was mostly wondering what Fujitora was up to, which presents him a lack of certainty in Fujitora even being his enemy.  All he had to do was prevent him from going after Luffy.

Whether or not either is holding back more than the other is pretty much only something that can be argued using circular reasoning.  It also doesn't really help Fujitora's case that he states if he loses his dice while putting his life on the line, it's not really a gamble, since it implies that he thinks he has a chance of being defeated by Sabo.  It also doesn't help Fujitora's case that he was overpowered by one of Doflamingo's techniques even while having the help of many others.


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## trance (Jul 7, 2015)

Gohara being turrible once again. It's good to have you back.


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## RF (Jul 7, 2015)

Jigen said:


> A battle between Marco and an Admiral basically boils down to attrition. One that he'll never win because guess why? An Admiral has solid top tier stats and insane firepower, while Marco just has insane regen, in a one on one battle Marco will be the first to go down no matter what.



And Marco doesn't have solid top tier stats?


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## Ghost (Jul 7, 2015)

Gohara said:


> The Shichibukai win with mid to high difficulty.
> 
> Blackbeard, Law, and Moriah vs. Aokiji- Blackbeard, Law, and Moriah win with mid to high (closer to mid than high) difficulty.  Blackbeard alone can potentially defeat Aokiji.  I give Aokiji the edge in speed, agility, and combat ability- but I would give Blackbeard the edge in physical strength, defense, and Devil Fruit abilities.  Moriah is far below Admiral level, but I would say Law is only a league below Admiral level.  I think Law can put up an okay fight against an Admiral.  So Law and Moriah combined should be able to put up a good fight against an Admiral and as such I would say they help put the fight well in their favor.
> 
> ...



Disgusting.


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## Jossaff (Jul 7, 2015)

Lets see

Mihawk beats Fujitora with extreme diff

Doflamingo and Law take Kizaru with extreme diff

and finally Teach , Hancock(who i view slightly bellow Jozu's lvl) , Jimbei and Moria gang up to beat Aokiji with high diff .

Shichis win


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 8, 2015)

Jigen said:


> So Issho and Green Bull are equal to Vista. I'll concede to that point of yours.



I don't think Vista is far off from Fujitora/Marco to begin with, though the former would give Mihawk a harder fight by virtue of being a powerful swordsman.



> A battle between Marco and an Admiral basically boils down to attrition. One that he'll never win because guess why? An Admiral has solid top tier stats and insane firepower, while Marco just has insane regen, in a one on one battle Marco will be the first to go down no matter what.



I don't know what physical stats you're talking about, man. What are these top-tier stats that Marco doesn't have?

Marco had enough physical strength to send Aokiji/Kizaru flying and clash with Bloodlusted Akainu. His battle speed is on the same level as Kizaru's, and we even saw that he could endure the lasers without regeneration due to Kairouseki. His Haki-imbued talons were shown to damage Akainu alongside Vista. That's worth something at the very least, considering none of the other commanders (bar Jozu) were capable of damaging him; that had to be Oda's way of showing that Marco and Vista are quite a bit superior to the others, leading the whole resistance against him. No admiral from C3 has true abilities of flight like Marco, either, which is something else to his advantage. If you ask me, Marco's stats are on the same level. The admirals probably have superior Haki overall, but the difference is marginal from what we've seen. In regards to Marco causing damage with his talons, I always knew he was capable of damaging the admirals, but the type of attack he uses would change the outcome. It's clearly one of his stronger attacks, too, considering he used the Haki-imbued talons at such a desperate time. The thing is, I always believed that Marco's kicks are able to damage the admirals, but they're such durability monsters to the point of blunt attacks requiring much more unless you're Garp. Haki isn't the issue; it's the type of attack he chooses to use.

Their fruits are another story altogether, though, and it'll basically come down to attrition as you had stated. The admirals excel in offensive power, while Marco excels in regeneration. One would basically have to argue whose type of power comes out superior right here, in which I'd slightly favor the admirals (namely Akainu/Aokiji) because of portrayal reasons. Logically, their stamina would also be around the same level - even if the admirals are better in that department - as we're talking about Whitebeard's FM and one of the top tiers. So it basically comes down to who can damage/exhaust their counterpart before officially running out of juice, assuming Marco's regeneration goes along with his stamina. With flight and such high-speed attacks, Marco will be giving them lots of trouble in hybrid form, so there's no way any admiral from C3 is defeating the guy with anything less than solid high-diff... especially Kizaru, who appears to be marginally weaker than Akainu/Aokiji. I'd give it to Borsalino 6-7/10 times with very high-extreme difficulty; I'd give it to Sakazuki and Kuzan 10/10 times with high-very high difficulty.



> Issho was stalling for time and couldn't go all out without wiping out the population (just look at what happened to PH when Akainu and Aokiji went all out), yet he still had a notable edge over that Ace clone. And don't worry, while Sabo will surpass him, he'll never be able to treat Issho the same way that Issho humiliated him.



Dude, Fujitora got serious as soon as he used Ferocious Tiger - even if he didn't continue fighting that way - and he later commented that he'd need to put his life on the line to defeat Sabo. That doesn't necessarily mean MMnM Sabo would defeat him at this point in the manga, but I do think he's capable of injuring him and pushing the fight to high-diff. By association, Fujitora's comment also indicates that he wouldn't be able to hold back if he's betting his life on a battle.


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## Sherlōck (Jul 8, 2015)

Mihawk v s Kizar = Can go either way. Whoever wins other one will not be able to continue fighting.

Teach vs Fujitora = Fujitora wins Mid-High difficulty.

Aokiji fodderizes the rest.

Admirals win .


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## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 8, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> I don't think Vista is far off from Fujitora/Marco to begin with, though the former would give Mihawk a harder fight by virtue of being a powerful swordsman.


Do you honestly think Vista is nigh equal to either the New Admirals or Marco?


King Itachi said:


> I don't know what physical stats you're talking about, man. What are these top-tier stats that Marco doesn't have?


Lets take a look at some of the Admirals' physical feats, shall we?

- Engaging Rayleigh in a swordfight (which wasn't Kizaru's specialty) and still managing to gradually gain an edge. Rayleigh may be old but he's still a monster.
- Blocking Whitebeard's bisento with one foot.
- Taking quakes from the WSM and still getting back up ready to fight.
- Having the stamina and durability/endurance to fight another Admiral for ten days.

The Admirals showed that they're not dependent on their DFs, they also have top tier stats. Akainu may be the strongest Admiral, but Aokiji and Kizaru aren't that far away from him, and I view the New Admirals to be roughly in the same ballpark (I can understand if others don't agree with this last bit though).


King Itachi said:


> Marco had enough physical strength to send Aokiji/Kizaru flying


When Kizaru was in midair, and Marco's kick didn't even scratch his suit. The kick dealt to Aokiji, which was basically a freeshot when Aokiji was focused on Luffy, also did no damage.


King Itachi said:


> he could endure the lasers without regeneration due to Kairouseki.


Kizaru was basically toying with Marco at that point, if he really wanted to, Kizaru would have killed him right there, but he didn't because of plot.


King Itachi said:


> His Haki-imbued talons were shown to damage Akainu alongside Vista.



What a load of bullshit.


King Itachi said:


> The admirals excel in offensive power


Yet they make sure that they're well rounded in both offense and defense.


King Itachi said:


> while Marco excels in regeneration.


And that's his one great quality. As I said before, Marco may have a great defense, but his offense is not up to snuff. Marineford was the perfect place to show off his arsenal, he had no reason to hold back when he was trying to save Ace, unlike the Admirals who had to hold back so that they didn't destroy the island, yet Marco never injured an Admiral. I won't deny that Marco could eventually do some decent damage to an Admiral, but the Admirals have shown that they can both injure Marco AND endure his attacks. So in a battle of attrition, the winner is painfully clear, especially when Oda has flat out stated that Marco's regen has a limit.


King Itachi said:


> Dude, Fujitora got serious as soon as he used Ferocious Tiger - even if he didn't continue fighting that way - and he later commented that he'd need to put his life on the line to defeat Sabo.


Issho never said he'd put his life on the line to beat Sabo, stop pulling shit out of your ass.

Anyway, *Mihawk isn't mid diffing an Admiral*, the Admirals have been portrayed as the top dogs of the OP World alongside the Emperors, and there is a bare minimum for someone to get the rank,  rather than assigning one of their current Marines as an Admiral. This will be my last reply, you haven't offered any valid evidence that shows Mihawk can mid diff an Admiral, and I doubt you'll ever change your mind.


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## Gohara (Jul 8, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Engaging Rayleigh in a swordfight



Impressive, sure, but it doesn't really say anything about Marco.  Kizaru didn't really gain an edge over Old Rayleigh.  In terms of physical strength they were even in that fight.  Old Rayleigh just has less stamina than Kizaru does.



Jigen said:


> Blocking Whitebeard's bisento with one foot.



That doesn't really tell the whole story, though.  It was a lava empowered foot (meaning not just Akainu's leg strength alone), and it wasn't a clash.  He stopped a swing that was aimed at Marine foot soldiers, and he had the advantageous position of kicking down at it.  Kizaru had a similar advantageous position.  Who's to say that Marco can't do the same thing under similar circumstances?



Jigen said:


> Taking quakes from the WSM and still getting back up ready to fight.



Again, that doesn't really say anything about Marco, and Marco himself has insane defense.



Jigen said:


> Having the stamina and durability/endurance to fight another Admiral for ten days.



Ace and Jinbe have fought for five days, more than almost any other character we know of.  So if that means the Admirals have more stamina than Marco does, then that means Ace and Jinbe have more stamina than almost every character in the series- including the Yonkou, Fujitora, and Kizaru.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 8, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Do you honestly think Vista is nigh equal to either the New Admirals or Marco?



I don't think Vista is nigh equal to Fujitora or Marco, but I don't think he's too far off from either of them and would push the former two to some form of high-diff. However, he's a pure swordsman and clearly has enough skill to clash with Mihawk evenly: something that neither Fujitora nor Marco can do from the way I see things.



> Lets take a look at some of the Admirals' physical feats, shall we?
> 
> - Engaging Rayleigh in a swordfight (which wasn't Kizaru's specialty) and still managing to gradually gain an edge. Rayleigh may be old but he's still a monster.



And Rayleigh mentioned that he hadn't used his sword for quite some time, not to mention he was completely out of shape compared to his prime self. Even then, Kizaru never gained an edge in their duel; it's merely an assumption on your part. There's nothing wrong with that opinion, but I do think it would take a lot out of Kizaru to defeat Old Rayleigh... if he even defeats him more often than not. Even Kizaru didn't find it fit to stay around and kill Ray, despite tearing through Supernovas not too long before that. Rayleigh still had an active bounty and knows the history of Void Century, which is one huge threat in itself to World Government. He knew he'd get heavily injured or defeated in the process, which explains why he didn't stay back to duel Rayleigh. It is commonly accepted that Old Rayleigh and Marco are pretty close in power, though their strengths/weaknesses lie in different areas. 

Marco's monstrous defense and resilience make up for what he lacks in offensive power. 



> - Blocking Whitebeard's bisento with one foot.



It's a top-tier feat that can really be replicated by anyone of that caliber. 
Seeing Marco's leg strength in action a few times, however, he can do the same thing to Whitebeard's bisento.



> - Taking quakes from the WSM and still getting back up ready to fight.



A feat that's often overrated. Marco would shrug off the quakes much easier with his type of power, anyway. WB's quakes haven't destroyed anything other than fodder and buildings. Of course WB would need to use a stronger quake against the likes of Akainu when his weaker ones haven't killed anyone with a name. 

Whitebeard wasn't WSM at Marineford, either. There's no proof that Sengoku knows the extent of WB's sickness, and the guy was being singled out for the entire war - with an injury from the beginning - so none of the admirals ever fought WB at full strength. Marco knows his captain better than Sengoku, and he stated that WB's failing health worried him. To start, his CoO wasn't ample enough to parry Squardo's attack, even though Marco knew he could have easily avoided something like that in the past... even from one of his own comrades.



> - Having the stamina and durability/endurance to fight another Admiral for ten days.



Ace/Jinbei were implied to be nigh equals at the time they had fought, and their fight lasted for five days. Marco is far above those two and more comparable to the admirals; it's not something he can't replicate if the individual is close enough to him. That's how I see Marco vs. Kizaru going more often than not - with the latter coming out as victor - exhausted and heavily injured in the end.



> The Admirals showed that they're not dependent on their DFs, they also have top tier stats. Akainu may be the strongest Admiral, but Aokiji and Kizaru aren't that far away from him, and I view the New Admirals to be roughly in the same ballpark (I can understand if others don't agree with this last bit though).



There are marginal differences between them from the way I see things, with Akainu being the strongest. 
Oda seems to enjoy making parallels with Kizaru and Yonkou FMs, though.

And yeah, Fujitora belongs in the same ballpark as other admirals similar to how Marco does.



> When Kizaru was in midair, and Marco's kick didn't even scratch his suit. The kick dealt to Aokiji, which was basically a freeshot when Aokiji was focused on Luffy, also did no damage.



Not the point I'm trying to make; they're still feats of physical strength. The damage that's made is just a different topic altogether. It's not like Akainu damaged Whitebeard when he blocked his bisento, yet it's still a feat of physical strength.



> Kizaru was basically toying with Marco at that point, if he really wanted to, Kizaru would have killed him right there, but he didn't because of plot.



That's not my point; I'm just pointing out physical stats. 
If Whitebeard didn't have a heart attack, Marco would have never been in that predicament, but that's not what I'm pointing at.



> What a load of bullshit.



We'll probably never agree on this matter, as we have gone through it multiple times in the past.
But Akainu did express pain from their attacks, whether you want to see that or not.



> Yet they make sure that they're well rounded in both offense and defense.



Despite their good defense, Marco is still capable of damaging them. 
And you'd even stated (later in the post) that you wouldn't be surprised if Marco can rack up a decent amount of damage on the admirals. A fight against Marco is going to be long with their type of power, and exhaustion/injuries become more prevalent as the battle escalates.



> And that's his one great quality. As I said before, Marco may have a great defense, but his offense is not up to snuff. Marineford was the perfect place to show off his arsenal, he had no reason to hold back when he was trying to save Ace, unlike the Admirals who had to hold back so they didn't destroy the island, yet Marco never injured an Admiral. I won't deny that Marco could eventually do some decent damage to an Admiral, but the Admirals have shown that they can both injure Marco AND endure his attacks. So in a battle of attrition, the winner is painfully clear, especially when Oda has flat out stated that Marco's regen has a limit.



The admirals' full power in AoE would make little difference against Marco. 
Fighters like Akainu/Aokiji make the battlefield into their element, but Marco counters most of that by virtue of being an aerial fighter with regeneration/high-speed attacks. Kizaru's power would just atomize the environment, so he'd be at one huge disadvantage if he destroys the surrounding area while fighting someone who excels in aerial battle. And Marco already showed us that he can both injure and endure the attacks of admirals, too - namely the latter part - but he simply needs to work a bit more as far as damage goes, similar to how they exert lots of energy to get past his regeneration.



> Issho never said he'd put his life on the line to beat Sabo, stop pulling shit out of your ass.



What do you call the bottom panel to the left, then? Just when Fujitora got serious after using quite a powerful attack?





> Anyway, *Mihawk isn't mid diffing an Admiral*, the Admirals have been portrayed as the top dogs of the OP World alongside the Emperors, and there is a bare minimum for someone to get the rank,  rather than assigning one of their current Marines as an Admiral. This will be my last reply, you haven't offered any valid evidence that shows Mihawk can mid diff an Admiral, and I doubt you'll ever change your mind.



Neither of us know what that bare minimum actually is, though.
And the admirals must not be completely equal to the emperors if they need some warlords for balance. I mean, WG shit their pants when Shanks/WB met up. Even a sick, injured version of Whitebeard caused quite a ruckus at Marineford.

Regarding the last part, there's not much evidence to give for someone like Mihawk, considering he's got little time on panel. It's my opinion based on where I currently place him, but that could be wrong depending on what transpires in subsequent appearances. And I already stated that Mihawk is only mid-diffing the weakest admirals - not the stronger ones - who I think he'd need around high-diff for. I'm not sure why people make a big deal about "mid-diff" being such a trivial amount of difficulty, anyway; that's surely enough to make an individual serious and use his/her full power.

Despite our many disagreements, I do respect your views. 
Maybe it's better if we agree to disagree, though, considering our views strongly differ with the admirals.


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## trance (Jul 8, 2015)

King Itachi said:
			
		

> A feat that's often overrated. Marco would shrug off the quakes much easier with his type of power, anyway.



Yea, because Marco has a more solid and efficient defense than Akainu; arguably the greatest the series. However, it be his regeneration absorbing a vast majority of the damage whereas with Akainu, it seemed like to be mostly his physical endurance. Marco has good endurance himself but he simply hasn't displayed it to the extent Akainu has.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 8, 2015)

Trance said:


> Yea, because Marco has a more solid and efficient defense than Akainu; arguably the greatest the series. However, it be his regeneration absorbing a vast majority of the damage whereas with Akainu, it seemed like to be mostly his physical endurance. Marco has good endurance himself but he simply hasn't displayed it to the extent Akainu has.



That's exactly what I mean. With his regeneration~ 
Marco's regeneration is one part of his power just like Akainu is able to turn into magma. 

You can't take that way from him. Due to Marco's abilities, he'd just deal with the situation much easier than Akainu.


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## trance (Jul 8, 2015)

> Marco's regeneration is one part of his power just like Akainu is able to turn into magma.



Except Marco's regeneration > Logia intangibility. IMO, there's less of a need to rely on his endurance due to its harder-to-crack defense. While it offers decent defense, if you bypass a Logia's elemental form, you're striking their being and from what is shown, you don't have to be on an Admiral's overall level to possess Haki strong enough to bypass their intangibility. 



> You can't take that way from him. Due to Marco's abilities, he'd just deal with the situation much easier than Akainu.



I never did. Marco's regeneration makes him an incredibly strong and effective fighter and a top tier IMO. However, there's no doubt he hasn't demonstrated endurance on the level Akainu has. An impressive amount, though.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 8, 2015)

Trance said:


> Except Marco's regeneration > Logia intangibility. IMO, there's less of a need to rely on his endurance due to its harder-to-crack defense. While it offers decent defense, if you bypass a Logia's elemental form, you're striking their being and from what is shown, you don't have to be on an Admiral's overall level to possess Haki strong enough to bypass their intangibility.
> 
> I never did. Marco's regeneration makes him an incredibly strong and effective fighter and a top tier IMO. However, there's no doubt he hasn't demonstrated endurance on the level Akainu has. An impressive amount, though.



I'll have to agree with you based on what we've seen. Marco's only true feat of endurance is taking Kizaru's lasers while under the effects of Kairouseki... and possibly Garp's punch. It's plausible that Marco is always feeling pain with his ability, though; it just heals and leaves no damage once regenerated.


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## Dellinger (Jul 8, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Impressive, sure, but it doesn't really say anything about Marco.  Marco engaged and overpowered Kizaru with his legs, and that's Kizaru's specialty.  Kizaru didn't really gain an edge over Old Rayleigh.  In terms of physical strength they were even in that fight.  Old Rayleigh just has less stamina than Kizaru does.


Where the fuck did Marco overpower Kizaru's legs?





> That doesn't really tell the whole story, though.  It was a lava empowered foot (meaning not just Akainu's leg strength alone), and it wasn't a clash.  He stopped a swing that was aimed at Marine foot soldiers, and he had the advantageous position of kicking down at it.  Kizaru had a similar advantageous position.  Who's to say that Marco can't do the same thing under similar circumstances?


I didn't know that lava boosts your physical strength.Thanks


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## Gohara (Jul 11, 2015)

My bad, he didn't. I misremembered what part of Kizaru's body he clashed with.

Physical strength isn't always the only contributed aspect of a clash.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Jul 11, 2015)

Mihawk can mid diff Fuji (who is only slightly above Vista)

probably needs high diff for Akainu


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## Dellinger (Jul 11, 2015)

Gohara said:


> My bad, he didn't. I misremembered what part of Kizaru's body he clashed with.
> 
> Physical strength isn't always the only contributed aspect of a clash.



Well in this feat,it does not matter.Akainu outright stops a full swing of WB's quake powered bisento.


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## Gohara (Jul 12, 2015)

I don't see why Akainu would power his foot with his Devil Fruit abilities if he didn't need to.  It would be a waste of additional energy.  Also, I'm not really sure what you mean by full swing of Whitebeard's Bisento, but if you're implying Whitebeard was using his full power at the time then I doubt it considering he was aiming at Marine foot soldiers.


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