# Sell me on Minato



## Troyse22 (Dec 27, 2016)

I've maintained my opinion that Minato is not high kage level, in fact, I only view him as mid kage at best. In my opinion, to make it into the "high kage" tier, one needs to be able to everything reasonably well and deal with tons of situations. However, Minato lacks one critical thing, DC. Rasengan is awful in comparison to things like infinite explosive tags, shinsu senju, Susanoo (Madara) etc etc. 

The forums however, largely disagree, most seem completely, 100% certain that Minato belongs in the high kage/high tier area.

I'm aware of his speed, but without D/C along with it, anyone a respectable defense and half decent reactions can beat him (in my opinion) Itachi comes to mind, MS Sasuke, V2 Jins etc etc. Or anyone with above average durability (Orochimaru, Kisame, Tsunade)

I'm making this thread with a 100% open mind. Is it my criteria for fitting into the high kage/high tier list that's off or what?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I've maintained my opinion that Minato is not high kage level, in fact, I only view him as mid kage at best


He is a mid kage . High kage are like hashirama naruto and bm minato


Troyse22 said:


> In my opinion, to make it into the "high kage" tier, one needs to be able to everything reasonably well and deal with tons of situations.


Soloed the entire war. Flee on sight orders were given
Made a career out of smashing bee and ay. Ay calls him unsurpassable
Hokage at a young age. Jiraiya beleives he is the child of prophecy
Fastest ninja.  Destroyed tobi who troubled multiple opponents at a time.


Troyse22 said:


> However, Minato lacks one critical thing, DC. Rasengan is awful in comparison to things like infinite explosive tags, shinsu senju, Susanoo (Madara) etc etc.


Yatai no kuzushi?
Rasengan itself is a good offensive
Could easily cut hachibis tentacles with a kunai?


Troyse22 said:


> The forums however, largely disagree, most seem completely, 100% certain that Minato belongs in the high kage/high


He is strong potryal hype feats got everything going for himself


Troyse22 said:


> I'm aware of his speed, but without D/C along with it, anyone a respectable defense and half decent reactions can beat him (in my opinion) Itachi comes to mind, MS Sasuke, V2 Jins etc etc. Or anyone with above average durability (Orochimaru, Kisame, Tsunade)


If you cant react to sth and in the mean time sb cuts your head you are done. Most ninjas cannot survive rasengan itself
All ninjas kisame itachi tsunade ms sasuke are below minato. They get taken down more times then not
Not to mention minato has shown use of sealing jutsu sm mode huge chakra reserves intellect that are very crucial for battle
Speed is a key factor in battle. If your opponent can constantly pressure you in a  basic aspect of battle then you are done for.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 27, 2016)

professor83 said:


> He is a mid kage . High kage are like hashirama naruto and bm minato
> 
> Soloed the entire war. Flee on sight orders were given
> Made a career out of smashing bee and ay. Ay calls him unsurpassable
> ...


No fam, Alive Minato is already High Kage, slightly above people like BM Bee, Muu, and Itachi.

BM Minato jumps up a tier.

Reactions: Like 2


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

He is hard to rank since he can beat most high kages who don't have OP defensive techniques like Susanoo for an example, but he can lose to low/mid kages with good defensive techniques like Kakuzu or something like that.

For that reason alone he can't be neither high kage nor mid kage really. He's somewhere in between.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Dec 27, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 



"I believe that only you [Naruto] can surpass the Fourth Hokage.
~ Kakashi, The Legendary Copy Ninja of the Leaf

"There was never a man that could surpass him [Fourth Hokage] "
~ The Legendary Raikage, fastest man in the world.

"That unrivalled strength [Minato], that carefree smile.."
~ Masashi Kishimoto, Creator of Naruto

Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.
~Jiraiya, the Legendary Sannin

"You deserve the title of Fourth Hokage..Managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move"
~ Tobi, The Final Villain

" I am proud of the unity of Iwagakure , although , we are proud we sent 1000 shinobi from our men , i hear that it took only one man from the hidden leaf , the yellow flash , to stop the invasion "
Onoki , The third Tsuchikage .

Minato had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade. We haven't had another genius like him since.
Jiraiya to Tsunade. Two of the Greatest Ninja of All Time

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 6


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I've maintained my opinion that Minato is not high kage level, in fact, I only view him as mid kage at best. In my opinion, to make it into the "high kage" tier, one needs to be able to everything reasonably well and deal with tons of situations. However, Minato lacks one critical thing, DC. Rasengan is awful in comparison to things like infinite explosive tags, shinsu senju, Susanoo (Madara) etc etc.
> 
> The forums however, largely disagree, most seem completely, 100% certain that Minato belongs in the high kage/high tier area.
> 
> ...



What you have to remember first off is minato did not have any panel time at all to reveal his arsenal 

Now in respect to V2 jins Minato is a specialist in sealing jutsu 
5 prong seal comes to mind the kyuubi seal far exceeds the others as such it would be far easier to use said seal to disrupt a jin bond to its bijuu as such with far greater speed he trolls V2 jins without having any DC

In respect to DC you must not forget Minato could very easily turn any projectile Attack against the user so even things like daikodan become useless in face of Minato 

Minato lacks offensive might but most people a good 90% of naruto verse would still die to a rasengan or are vulnerable to having their chakra tampered with 

Considering Minato is a sealing specialist 
And can transfer chakra and has a seal to disrupt a bijuu chakra its highly likely he has seals to tamper with a normal person chakra 

As such your opinion on what it takes to be high level is naturally very narrow minded 

Obito also lacks any DC I hope you won't imply he isn't high kage level

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Going by quotes, Hiruzen is a godtier then. Or Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Going by quotes, Hiruzen is a godtier then. Or Itachi.


 
What the f**k does this have to do with Minato's hype ?


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> What the f**k does this have to do with Minato's hype ?


Read the post again and again till you get it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

To be fair, Obito doesn't have high destructive capability either and he's supposedly high tier. 

Minato is high kage - but still below Itachi.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Android (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Read the post again and again till you get it.


No , you're the one who needs to sit down and read again , and again , and again, and again , til you get it .
Saying Itach is invincible is hyperbole , saying Hiruzen is the God of Shinobi (lol retconned) is a hyperbole .
- Saying Minato was the fastest man in the world is not a hyperbole .
- Saying Minato solo's the invasion by himself is not a hyperbole .
- Saying Minato was a genius is not a hyperbole .
Get your facts straight before talking

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> To be fair, Obito doesn't have high destructive capability either and he's supposedly high tier.


He does tho. Although Kamui doesn't kill you, it means insta-defeat for the opponent in battledome settings.


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## VR46 (Dec 27, 2016)

Besides the fact that i don't agree with Itachi being above Minato, that being a discussion for another time, the fact that MS Itachi is himself high kage tier doesn't actually say shit above Minato's placement. 

Btw who does the OP rate as a high kage tier?


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## hbcaptain (Dec 27, 2016)

Minato has a dood DC which is Yatai Kuzushi which is strong enough to numb Full Kurama. In other word, his firepower alone is above average.

And on top of firepower he is a Fuinjutsu master which is more than enough to replace his apparent lack in destructive power.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> He does tho. Although Kamui doesn't kill you, it means insta-defeat for the opponent in battledome settings.



What does he have please clarify
Kamui =/= Destructive capability 

In BD setting getting your chakra sealed is also GG

Minato can do that as well in case you didn't know


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> No , you're the one who needs to sit down and read again , and again , and again, and again , til you get it .
> Saying Itach is invincible is hyperbole , saying Hiruzen is the God of Shinobi (lol retconned) is a hyperbole .
> - Saying Minato was the fastest man in the world is not a hyperbole .
> - Saying Minato solo's the invasion by himself is not a hyperbole .
> ...


Means shit if you interpret it as a hyperbole or not, the point was that sentences are just sentences and even if Rikudo Sennin said that Minato is the best shinobi ever, it wouldn't put him instantly into high kage tier.


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What does he have please clarify


I said that Kamui is pseudo-DC. Meaning if he lands it - you are done for and it penetrates most defenses basically.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

VR46 said:


> Besides the fact that i don't agree with Itachi being above Minato, that being a discussion for another time, the fact that MS Itachi is himself high kage tier doesn't actually say shit above Minato's placement.
> 
> Btw who does the OP rate as a high kage tier?



Kisame 
I am sure you get the joke now

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I said that Kamui is pseudo-DC. Meaning if he lands it - you are done for and it penetrates most defenses basically.



As does a basic rasengan 

Oddly enough 

Only problem is minato is far more likely to land rasengan due to being faster

Chakra sealing is also something most defence can't counter 

Guess that's a pseudo DC then ?


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## Android (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Means shit if you interpret it as a hyperbole or not, the point was that sentences are just sentences and even if Rikudo Sennin said that Minato is the best shinobi ever, it wouldn't put him instantly into high kage tier.


So Madara saying Gai was the strongest Taijutsu user he faced means nothing ? 
Oh wait , wasn't the poster who was using Madara's statement about taking on JJ Obito with SM as an argument ? 
You never cease to amaze me


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## VR46 (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kisame
> I am sure you get the joke now



lol i get the joke. 

Must mean 7 gate Gai is in that Hashirama/EMS Madara with Kurama tier i suppose.


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> As does a basic rasengan
> 
> Oddly enough


Not really, Rasengan gets countered by all high kage tier defenses (sage durability, ribcage susanoo, bijuu chakra cloak) and most mid kage tier defenses (RnY cloak, Oral Rebirth, Sand Armor, 100 healings..). 




> Only problem is minato is far more likely to land rasengan due to being faster


True



> Chakra sealing is also something most defence can't counter


What are you referring to?



> Guess that's a pseudo DC then ?


It's not pseudo DC as Rasengan's primary use is destruction. The reason why I mentioned Kamui being pseudo-DC is because it does no damage to the opponent yet means "K.O" in battledome settings.


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> So Madara saying Gai was the strongest Taijutsu user he faced means nothing ?


that alone means nothing, Gai's feats speak for himself.. if Gai vs Madara was off-paneled and we only saw Madara's quote, nobody would rate him as high



> Oh wait , wasn't the poster who was using Madara's statement about taking on JJ Obito with SM as an argument ?
> You never cease to amaze me


someone talking about himself, knowing his own capabilities and limits and somebody hyping the shit out of someone for whatever reason are completely different things


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## Android (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> that alone means nothing, Gai's feats speak for himself.. if Gai vs Madara was off-paneled and we only saw Madara's quote, nobody would rate him as high


And Minato's doesn't have the feats , that's what you're saying ?


t0xeus said:


> someone talking about himself, knowing his own capabilities and limits and somebody hyping the shit out of someone for whatever reason are completely different things


This type of garbage selective reading is exactly what is draging the NBD down .


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## VR46 (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> He does tho. Although Kamui doesn't kill you, it means insta-defeat for the opponent in battledome settings.



What does that say about Minato who is about the only one who can counter that ability(besides Kakashi and Tobirama) and actually beat Obito? Doesn't quite fit the narrative about Minato being mid kage level now does it?


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> And Minato's doesn't have the feats , that's what you're saying ?


How would I know? I am just a random boy who read your post and it included no feats whatsoever, just some quotes from the manga.
That's what I am saying.



> This type of garbage selective reading is exactly what is draging the NBD down .


hahaha



VR46 said:


> What does that say about Minato who is about the only one who can counter that ability(besides Kakashi and Tobirama) and actually beat Obito? Doesn't quite fit the narrative about Minato being mid kage level now does it?


It still does make sense. Bad match-ups are a thing and unless a character is several tiers above someone that counters him, he can still lose as in Obito's example.

I was referring to Saph saying that Obito has no DC and still is a high kage tier, so it wasn't supposed to have with Minato anything.


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## Android (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> How would I know? I am just a random boy who read your post and it included no feats whatsoever, just some quotes from the manga.
> That's what I am saying.


Good thing my post wasn't directed at this type of random boys who didn't read the manga .


t0xeus said:


> hahaha


K .


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## Lucaniel (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Going by quotes, Hiruzen is a godtier then. Or Itachi.





cctr9 said:


> What the f**k does this have to do with Minato's hype ?


we got some nonexistent reasoning skills over here, god damn


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## Bonly (Dec 27, 2016)

If you're stuck on his lack of DC then I doubt anyone could sell you on Minato. Minato doesn't really need DC since a kunai is good enough to take out quite a bit of people and whoever it can't take out he has sealing jutsu which is very versatile along with Futons, etc. Sadly we didn't see all he could do but if you don't ignore his portrayal and keep his sealing in your mind then he could easily be considered High Kage lvl


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## VR46 (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> It still does make sense. Bad match-ups are a thing and unless a character is several tiers above someone that counters him, he can still lose as in Obito's example.
> 
> I was referring to Saph saying that Obito has no DC and still is a high kage tier, so it wasn't supposed to have with Minato anything.



Yes match-ups exist but the fact that only a select group of people can counter that, with only Kakashi being in the mid kage tier and that's conjuncture really, means that Minato is indeed in the same tier. A technique that is in the top when it comes to haxness can't be countered by a mid kage let's be serious. And counter it after being activated no less.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Not really, Rasengan gets countered by all high kage tier defenses (sage durability, ribcage susanoo, bijuu chakra cloak) and most mid kage tier defenses (RnY cloak, Oral Rebirth, Sand Armor, 100 healings..).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sage durability that's a baseless claim 
Even juubito a bloody Jin actually received damage from it and had to regen so sorry gotta say you can do better than claim such. 

Yes rib cage can depending on the user that might not even happen at all hence why speed is important 

All those defences you mentioned are dependent on user reactions 99% of them have lower reactions than Minato which means they may not even pull off said jutsu before eating a rasengan 

I am saying Minato must have chakra seals considering he has a chakra seal for Jin's he must have one for regular people 

He after all in his short panel time showed 4 different sealing jutsu


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I've maintained my opinion that Minato is not high kage level


Well where else do you put a guy who clowns just about everyone in mid kage tier or below and can take on and defeat high kage tier characters?



Troyse22 said:


> to make it into the "high kage" tier, one needs to be able to everything reasonably well and deal with tons of situations. However, Minato lacks one critical thing, DC.


FCD that temporarily incapped 100% kurama...there ya go, some DC...Add to that Obito has 0 DC yet he is high kage, he stalemated kakashi, gai, and KCM naruto with nothing but kamui spam, all of whom are at least mid kage shoo ins, and minato soloed obito on panel despite kamui, he also did so after 2 exchanges, whereas it took kakashi and friends somewhere around a dozen chapters just to figure out obitos gimmick. And kakashi and naruto had seen obitos ability in action before, minato hadnt.




Troyse22 said:


> Rasengan is awful in comparison to things like infinite explosive tags


Depends on how you look at it, Minatos rasengan is odama+ level, and is readily usable, explosive tags is incredibly situational.


Troyse22 said:


> hinsu senju, Susanoo (Madara)


Its a tad ridiculous* to even mention *these 2 in the same sentence as either rasengan or explosive tags...i mean come on



Troyse22 said:


> I'm aware of his speed, but without D/C along with it, anyone a respectable defense and half decent reactions can beat him (in my opinion) Itachi comes to mind, MS Sasuke, V2 Jins etc etc


Everyone mentioned would get mid diffed by minato as he cannot be tagged by anyone there, and outside of susanoo he tags sasuke and itachi stupid easy. FTG also allows him to totally bypass susanoo if he marks them, or gets a kunai near them inside susanoo. FCD also messes up a susanoos day.

V2 jins are slower than V2 AAAA im pretty sure, they are at most tied with the man, and minato no sells that level of speed so the jins cant touch him either. Minato is also strong enough to carve through BM level durability with a kunai, granted it was Bees BM, which is a very fickle creature when it comes to tanking anything.



Troyse22 said:


> Or anyone with above average durability (Orochimaru, Kisame, Tsunade)


Oro is the only one there who could pull out something resembling a win against minato due to a very weird matchup. Minato cant put oro down, but oro cant touch minato. That fight comes down to what can be spammed more, oros immortality, or minatos rasengan to oros face. So its a battle of attrition.

Tsunade dies unless she starts with her byakugo on, otherwise she gets blitzed and killed, even with byakugo, a headshot with odama lvl rasengan would more than likely take her out. Base rasengan has also shat on regen before.

As for kisame, he goes down the same way tsunade does, rasengan headshot, headshots are kind of the universal counter to durability. Not too mention a SM amp if he needs it.

Or FCD gg and crush the poor man.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kyu (Dec 27, 2016)

Minato doesn't need destructive moves - he seals or sends away what he can't kill. Or incapacitate via Magen: Gama Rinshō.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 27, 2016)

VR46 said:


> Besides the fact that i don't agree with Itachi being above Minato, that being a discussion for another time, the fact that MS Itachi is himself high kage tier doesn't actually say shit above Minato's placement.
> 
> Btw who does the OP rate as a high kage tier?


He rates Kisame as above Nagato, Itachi, and wait for it... BSM naruto


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 27, 2016)

Minato should be fine in DC for his tier and with his speed besides a few obviously bad matchups(like oro). 

I have been in debates where poster believe he can use a wind infused kunai to kill the raikage(pretty tanky) and a lightning kunai to kill SM kabuto(also pretty tanky). I don't really like the chakra flow argument only brought upon by(ill thought out) elemental placements. I think he could take down A with enough rasengan and kunai stabs if he don't get hit. Sm kabuto is not going down to minato tho.

One thing that might sell you on minato is that ftg is not just speed. It's hax too. It can remove some of the best defenses and redirect some of the best offenses.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Okay, I agree. I never said he is mid kage, I am just saying he is fluctuating between mid kage and high kage for me, as he is super dependant on match-up.
> 
> 
> True, I concede here.
> ...



You can't passively use susanoo it's something one has to actively use same as cloaks 
Passive usage is things like kamui phasing which happens subconsciously 

Sand armour Got no feats to suggest it can survive internal damage which rasengan deals 

That isn't his only sealing jutsu is the point am making , if he has 5 prong seal which blocks a bijuu from giving its chakra to its Jin then common sense dictates he must have a seal to block a normal person chakra 

Even Chiyo has that and Iruka has one to stop movement 
These 2 people are amateurs compared to Minato in sealing jutsu 

A more useful seal to stop ET 

There isn't though 

Stopping the movement when the summoner is right there is pointless 
Hiruzen also wanted to free control of the souls of his masters 

Other sealing jutsu would have been pointless


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## VR46 (Dec 27, 2016)

shat on regen before.

shat on regen before.

Btw what happens between these chapters is enough to put Minato in the high kage tier. Now seriously, everyone in the mid kage tier would be stomped by one of Kurama or Obito alone. In fact none from the high kage tier besides Minato can even cut it in the same position. This dude here managed to deal with both of them and only because of plot he died since Naruto had to be the savior and all. Otherwise he would walk out alive after a bout with both Kurama and Obito.

Fuck outta here with "Sell me on Minato" shit. What a dumb thread.


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## Kyu (Dec 27, 2016)

Forgot to mention, dude fought Ay _and_ Killer Bee multiple times, yet left those encounters with an established superiority, at least from Raikage's perspective. 

*Stamina/Endurance*
0.)Has enormous chakra reserves according to Fukasaku's natural energy criteria
-
1.)Maintained a weakening seal containing 100% Kyuubi, while his wife was busy giving birth 
2.)Teleported 5-10 times 
3.)Warped a house-sized nuke away
4.)Defeated Obito; used a contract seal
5.)Summoned Gamabunta
6.)Teleported 100% Kurama away (and was prepared to put up a barrier)
7.)Summoned the Shinigami

--Gets impaled though the back--

8.)Summoned Gamatora 
9.)Listens to his wife's long winded farewell to their son
10.)Transfers his & Kushina's remaining chakra into their child

*Raw Speed*
1.)Shunshined past 3T Obito before harm could come to his newborn son
2.)Saved Kushina by dodging 100% Kurama's paw 
3.)Beat Hokage 1-3 to the battlefield with time to spare 

*Reaction Time*
1.) Reacted to "v2" Ay twice (on panel)
2.) Reacted to Kamui with no prior knowledge
3.) Teleported outta Madara's range of control before his Truth-Seekers began its disintegration process

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Gtfo
> No way
> too funny


True.
Check the tier list in his sig


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## Troyse22 (Dec 27, 2016)

Enjoying the reasoning, and I'm honestly coming around about Minato. Regarding Obito and DC, Kamui to boxland is still certain death.



VR46 said:


> Fuck outta here with "Sell me on Minato" shit. What a dumb thread.




God forbid someone opens their mind right?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 27, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> True.
> Check the tier list in his sig




Stay OT Icegaze and Phantom or exit the thread.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Enjoying the reasoning, and I'm honestly coming around, regarding Obito and DC, Kamui to boxland is still certain death.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Base Minato at best is the high kage to top tier threshold.

He wouldnt be in the same tier as EMS Madara and Hashirama tho.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

VR46 said:


> shat on regen before.
> 
> shat on regen before.
> 
> ...



I would go on and say 50% kurama was called fast by SM naruto 

100% kurama was being casually reacted to by Minato 

Minato even in shunshin lives up to his hype as clearly stated by obito 
 One could go on but I have yet to see ninja in the manga casually deal with thrown weapons 
 This is something people forget in the manga 

Gai a master at taijutsu deflects them he doesn't casually side step them

Kisame actually got hit in the shoulder by 1

Itachi seals stopped by 1

I could go on but I guess most people didn't know anyone here can throw a knife quicker than usain bolt can run


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Stay OT Icegaze and Phantom or exit the thread.



Sure thing mod
Oh wait you aren't one though 


It is on topic though

As it has been brought up obito lacks DC to which suddenly and predictably you have conceded on that


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## VR46 (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Enjoying the reasoning, and I'm honestly coming around, regarding Obito and DC, Kamui to boxland is still certain death.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No man, but seriously one only has to read those chapters to realize that those feats can't be done by people below high kage, like even the ones in the high kage tier can't do it besides Minato. 

It's not like we are talking about word of god and don't know what meaningless hype. It's right there in the manga.

Maybe i overreacted and i apologize for the words but this thing is so obvious, that only the haters can even argue such a point.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sure thing mod
> Oh wait you aren't one though
> 
> 
> ...


I never said Obito was a DC monster, but Kamuing someone to another dimension and teleporting them a few hundred yards are two different things. Minato's method is not guaranteed death, Obito's is, they're 2 vastly different, incomparable things

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Forgot to mention, dude fought Ay _and_ Killer Bee multiple times, yet left those encounters with an established superiority, at least from Raikage's perspective.
> 
> *Stamina/Endurance*
> 0.)Has enormous chakra reserves according to Fukasaku's natural energy criteria
> ...





You forgot to say "Young Obito", just so people avoid the confusion that Young Obito = Adult Obito.


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## Veracity (Dec 27, 2016)

Homie has the Gama Trio, FCD, Frog Song and can redirect most attacks right back at the opponent. That's enough to take out any High Kage Shinobi if utilized correctly.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I never said Obito was a DC monster, but Kamuing someone to another dimension and teleporting them a few hundred yards are two different things. Minato's method is not guaranteed death, Obito's is, they're 2 vastly different, incomparable things



But obito is high kage level yet lacks DC
Did your OP not state that as being a requirement for high kage tier ?

Kamui box land don't kill you or kakashi would have died 
As would torune and fuu
Genjutsu would not have been needed to keep them in place 

I sense back tracking coming up


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

I guess one should assume "young Ay" was also slower despite him thinking otherwise 



But young bee was faster since by his own admission when he saw KCm naruto move which reminded him of Minato he said 

He could hardly see more than a flash 

But somehow countered Minato 
With speed right


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## Troyse22 (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But obito is high kage level yet lacks DC
> Did your OP not state that as being a requirement for high kage tier ?



Obito can do everything reasonably well, including KO. Kamui is, like someone said, pseudo DC. It ignores durability and is a literal one shot. In my mind, that's still DC



Icegaze said:


> Kamui box land don't kill you or kakashi would have died



So Obito just leaving them there to starve to death isn't a viable method? Kakashi's situation is not the same situation.



Icegaze said:


> As would torune and fuu



They were kept alive.

Are you going to suggest hunger, thirst or other basic human survival needs are non existent in boxland?



Icegaze said:


> I sense back tracking coming up



I asked the forums to sell me on Minato, i'm coming into this with an open mind due to the potential that I could in fact be wrong regarding Minato. You act as if it would be some huge accomplishment if you convinced me, which you haven't.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Obito can do everything reasonably well, including KO. Kamui is, like someone said, pseudo DC. It ignores durability and is a literal one shot. In my mind, that's still DC
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Glad you said in your mind that's still DC 
DC= destructive capability 
Hence the acronym that's all am saying perhaps different choice of words ? 

Why is kakashi situation not the Same situation?

And do we assume Minato has no hirashin tags outside the battle field ? Like summoning them to toad land to perhaps starve to death ?

Or is that deemed impossible for some hilarious reason ?

How does long term death apply to BD scenario ? 

If it's KO by ring out minato can easily do that as well or do the rules change for Minato ?

What happens when said opponent is hidan or kakuzu or sasori especially sasori who doesn't need to eat ? Does obito level suddenly drop ?


Lol I don't need to convince you am simply having a giggle with this hilarious thread


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## Kyu (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Obito can do everything reasonably well, including KO. Kamui is, like someone said, pseudo DC. It ignores durability and is a literal one shot. In my mind, that's still DC



You aware DC stands for *D*estructive *C*apacity, correct? As in the capacity of a character's ability to bring about destruction.

Kamui is hax, trapping foes in kamuiland is winning via BFR, a.k.a. ringout.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 27, 2016)

Kyu said:


> You aware DC stands for *D*estructive *C*apacity, correct? As in the capacity of a character's ability to bring about destruction.



I'm aware of what DC means, hence why I said Pseudo DC.

It still does what DC is capable of, with added benefits.


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## t0xeus (Dec 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> You can't passively use susanoo it's something one has to actively use same as cloaks
> Passive usage is things like kamui phasing which happens subconsciously
> 
> Sand armour Got no feats to suggest it can survive internal damage which rasengan deals
> ...


fair enough, you've convinced me


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## Kyu (Dec 27, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Kamui is hax, trapping foes in kamuiland is winning via BFR, a.k.a. ringout.


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

But ring out is something hirashin can also achieve
Why do people ignore marks outside of any battle field considering it's part of Minato jutsu and how it works out


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## Sapherosth (Dec 27, 2016)

Passive ability = An ability that is active constantly.

NOT an ability that activates subconsciously. 

Kamui phasing is not a subconscious ability. That's stupid. Subconscious abilities are like Gaara's auto defense. 

The only time Kamui happened subconsciously was when he first activated it and he couldn't control it. Other than that, you have to activate it just like any other jutsu.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 27, 2016)

The way I see it, the special set of abilities needed to defeat Obito

===> Intellect (To deduce his abilities)
===> Insane Reactions 
===> Attack speed (To catch him before he can go intangible)

And, preferably.
===> Stamina (To outlast his 5 minutes of phasing)


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## LightningForce (Dec 27, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> The way I see it, the special set of abilities needed to defeat Obito
> 
> ===> Intellect (To deduce his abilities)
> ===> Insane Reactions
> ...



With these criteria in mind, do you think BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke could take on Obito?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 27, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Regarding Obito and DC, Kamui to boxland is still certain death.


Thats not DC tho...thats outright hax...

DC is how well you can blow shit up, not necessarily how you can finish an opponent and win a fight, if thats the case, minato can do the same thing

 Touch you once and send you to an FTG seal half a world away, winner by freaking ring out: The yellow flash


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## Parallaxis (Dec 27, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats not DC tho...thats outright hax...
> 
> DC is how well you can blow shit up, not necessarily how you can finish an opponent and win a fight, if thats the case, minato can do the same thing
> 
> Touch you once and send you to an FTG seal half a world away, winner by freaking ring out: The yellow flash



Exactly. DC isn't everything, if it was, EMS Madara would be >>> Juudara. (barring CT ofc).

Itachi's highest DC is Yasaka Magatama, but that's not why he's high kage.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Passive ability = An ability that is active constantly.
> 
> NOT an ability that activates subconsciously.
> 
> ...


Posters took the databook entry for kamui(out of databook 4) and ran with it tho they got the reference the entry was reffering to messed up. It's says stuff about the jutsu activating subconsciously but it's most likely referring to mist flashback obito. We have seen obito come into contact with stuff and get harmed by attacks in his plain view. It's far from gaara's auto sand or the magnetic field from the third kazkages's iron sand. Truly passive/subconscious abilities.


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## Eliyua23 (Dec 27, 2016)

Protagonist Father


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## Icegaze (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Passive ability = An ability that is active constantly.
> 
> NOT an ability that activates subconsciously.
> 
> ...



Check DB description 
Am only going by that 
The word subconscious was used


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## Jinnobi (Dec 27, 2016)

By feats alone, Minato never really impressed me. Managed to beat a young Tobi who was barely outclassed in speed. Everything else is just meh.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 3


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## ARGUS (Dec 27, 2016)

High kages are generally guys like Muu, third raikage, Tobirama, Itachi and killerbee 
These people are capable of defending their nation (minato already did), solo armies (minato already did), overpower a normal kage (minato already did to Ay) and are well over an average kage like Mei or rasa or hiruzen 

So yes. Minato is high kage regardless of his shit D.C. 
Unless you think that guys like Itachi, Muu or Tobirama are an entire tier above him, 

Him having shit DC doesn't even matter. 
Obito has crap DC, yet he's high kage, 
Nagato has crap mobility yet he's above a high kage 
KCM naruto has crap durability yet he's high kage as well 

So bad logic

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 27, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Passive ability = An ability that is active constantly.
> 
> NOT an ability that activates subconsciously.
> 
> ...


Page 242

Ninjutsu, Kekkei Genkai - Kamui

No rank, all ranges, offensive, defensive

Users: Obito Uchiha, Kakashi Hatake

The godly eyes that conquer fate's horizon!! [TN: Epic sentence is epic.]

Coercing into another dimension!!

A dojutsu that transfers objects into the dimension created with the "Mangekyo Sharingan". In proportion to the amount of chakra the user holds, the possibly transferable mass of the target is increased or decreased. A skilled user can also transfer his own body. Furthermore, there's a subtle difference in the powers of the left and right eyes. The left eye hurls distant objects into the dimension by fixating it, *the right eye unconsciously makes a body part slip-through by transfering it.* Additionally, by having both eyes, "Susanoo" appears and it is possible to apply Kamui's powers to its weapons.

⬆➡ Objects are transfered immediately into the dimension. The distance of the right eye's effect is short. The ability to make the body "slip-through" is the ability of Obito's own right eye

Reactions: Like 3


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## Veracity (Dec 28, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> High kages are generally guys like Muu, third raikage, Tobirama, Itachi and killerbee
> These people are capable of defending their nation (minato already did), solo armies (minato already did), overpower a normal kage (minato already did to Ay) and are well over an average kage like Mei or rasa or hiruzen
> 
> So yes. Minato is high kage regardless of his shit D.C.
> ...



Why does KCM Naruto have crap durability lmao? Especially when compared to High Kage.


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## ARGUS (Dec 28, 2016)

Veracity said:


> Why does KCM Naruto have crap durability lmao? Especially when compared to High Kage.


Itachi (susanoo)
Third raikage 
Sasuke 
Killer bee (hachibi) 

All have durability that blows naruto out of the water


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 28, 2016)

He is a mid-high kage (more close to high) .. 

One of the fastest ninja on his feet
Best user of FTG
One of the best fast thinker strategist of the series

If you have this type of intelligence+speed collabration on your side.. Even this is good enough to make you a high level opponent by itself.

But he also has seals, summons, barriers (due to myobokuzan education), rasengan and couple of elemental releases (due to last 2 databook). 

He also have quite strength, stamina and durability too. (Easily able to almost cut Hachibi's tail with his bare kunai). 

Bested Kumo Jonins(whom is tasked with a mission that kidnapped a jinc from konoha)  when he was a academy student.
He considered as ultimate genius. And hell of a shinobi... 

He died at 24. He never reaches his potential.. But even with that kina short career he was still able to bested Ay, Bee, Tobi, Kyuubi, various opponents... And he was able to heavily impress some chars like Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Ay, Bee, etc,etc,etc 

..

Minato is a good example of "versatility in simplicity" ı think.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Dec 28, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Itachi (susanoo)
> Third raikage
> Sasuke
> Killer bee (hachibi)
> ...


Oh okay defensive measures. I can agree with that.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (Dec 28, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> He is a mid-high kage (more close to high) ..
> 
> One of the fastest ninja on his feet
> Best user of FTG
> ...


He can beat all of the Kage bar Naruto and Hashirama, a top 3 Kage can't be just a mid Kage or close to High Kage.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Dec 28, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> He can beat all of the Kage bar Naruto and Hashirama, a top 3 Kage can't be just a mid Kage or close to High Kage.


You're right actually but ı dont think he is better than Prime Hiruzen 

Anko: IF yondaime stil lives.. he can beat oroc (and hiruzen aproove that)
Oroc: IF you're 10 year younger you should beat me.

59 y/o Hiruzen can do the same job with Minato... And 59 y/o Hiruzen still aint at his prime .
So due to portrayal and databook... 3rd Kage (from Top 3) should be Hiruzen.

But yes as no#4 he is high kage.. But when people say high-kage or mid-kage they consider all "kage-level" shinobies. So Nagato, Rinne-Obito, Sasuke and Madara are other High Kage level shinobies.. So thats why ı said " He close to high more than mid" He is not exactly at same tier with Sasuke,Naruto,Hashirama,Madara,Nagato, Obito (rinne)

He is with Prime Hiruzen, Tobirama, Obito, Jiraiya, Pain (he is the no#2 of this tier) .. After from this tier we have 

Killer Bee, 3rd Raikage, Muu, Itachi, Oroc, etc etc.. Thats why ı said that  friend. (and of course ı talked about regular hokage minato not KCM2 Minato)


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## Yoko (Dec 28, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm aware of his speed, but without D/C along with it, anyone a respectable defense and half decent reactions can beat him (in my opinion)



He has giant summons, which are pretty much inherently DC.  But even when excluding that, Rasengan or knife to the skull is more than enough to kill people.  Destructive capacity is really just for crowd control.



> Itachi comes to mind, MS Sasuke



Itachi and Sasuke are fellow high-Kage users - there is no shame in Minato losing to them.  And regardless, many have made an argument about teleporting Susano'o off them.  Not sure if it'd work, but there is an argument there.



> Or anyone with above average durability (Orochimaru, Kisame, Tsunade)



Kisame and Tsunade are not immune to beheading.  Orochimaru can't keep Oral Rebirthing forever, and a kunai swipe from Minato takes a lot less out of him than an Oral Rebirth does to Orochimaru.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Dec 28, 2016)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> You're right actually but ı dont think he is better than Prime Hiruzen
> 
> Anko: IF yondaime stil lives.. he can beat oroc (and hiruzen aproove that)
> Oroc: IF you're 10 year younger you should beat me.
> ...


Well, Hiruzen portrayal was retconed since the P2. His surname "god of Shinobis", "strongest Hokage" desapeared since the 3rd DB,while the two first DB highly prased his strengh, he is still the professor who knows and master a lot of techniques but he is no longer the strongest.
And when you see the likes of Kakashi (who knows Hiruzen) and Raikage saying Minato's strengh was unparalled, then I think Kishi just changed his mind.


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## Turrin (Dec 29, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Minato lacks one critical thing, DC. Rasengan is awful in comparison to things like infinite explosive tags, shinsu senju, Susanoo (Madara) etc etc.


Honestly, the amount of Ninja that can tank a Rasengan w/ no damage via their durability alone are few and far between. Even a character as powerful as Juubito was damaged considerably by Naruto's Basic Rasengan.

For example Kisame, Orochimaru, and Tsunade are not no selling Rasengan, they are taking the damage and regenerating from it. However in all cases their regeneration is not infinite or absolute. If they run out of juice (chakra/stamina) to regen then they will have to take the damage or if they are damaged faster then they can regen they will be in trouble. This is most likely why Minato developed Rasen-Flash Dance, because it allows him to keep hitting the enemy in rapid succession with Rasengan, not giving them enough time to regenerate &/or forcing them to waste a ton of chakra to regenerate tiring them out.

The only characters I feel that could tank Rasengan with little to no damage are Kakuzu and Sandaime-Raikage (besides Juubi Jins which are impervious to anything not Senjutsu, but add Senjutsu and they can't tank Rasengan w/o damage ether or at least Juubito couldn't). I'll come back to those 2 though, but for now moving on...

So mostly it comes down to defenses, not durability. There are defenses that can protect against Rasengan, but then there are also potential ways Minato can get around those defenses. Minato's Speed and Unpredictability with FTG alone allows him to get past most defenses, others he can outright teleport away.

For example Gaara is considered to have one of the most formidable defenses among all High-Tiers, Naruto even considers his defense better than Sandaime-Raikage's. Yet Minato has the tools to get past it. We saw Gaara's Normal Sand couldn't keep up with Joki Boi's speed, so Minato should be able to circumvent that Sand with the speed and unpredictability of FTG. Gourd-Sand/Suna Tama he can outright teleport away from Gaara, and then Gaara's Sand armor alone can be peeled away by consecutive hits as Lee showed, so Rasen-Flash dance should deal with that.

You also bring up the Itachi examples, Susano'o can certainly block Rasengan, but many people feel Minato can teleport Susano'o away and thus circumvent it entirely. But even if that's not possible Minato is certainly in a good position technique wise to outlast Susano'o, and then land a finishing blow.

Finally you bring up V2 Jins, but realistically how many V2 Jins even exist. Really it's only Yagura, B, and Naruto that could control they Bijuu. So that's really only three characters. Naruto doesn't get anything resembling a V2 mode that he can control until he gets BM, and most people agree that BM-Naruto is above Base-Minato anyway. So that leaves Yagura and B.

Both Yagura and B can be defeated before V2 by Minato, but assuming they make it into V2, we honestly don't know how durable V2 really is, I.E. do we know for certain that it can't be peeled away by consecutive Rasengan hits via Rasen-Flash Dance? Do we even know if all V2s are equal in durability, I.E. is Yagura's Sanbi V2 = B's Hachibi V2. Also Minato's mastery of Uzamaki Fuuinjutsu that allowed him to seal 50% of Kurama's chakra with the Hakke Fuuin, which is greater than ether of these characters chakra in V2, could also be another method for him to deal with each's V2 Mode. Ultimately Considering B was trembling in fear at the thought of Minato, I doubt V2 would have universally defended him against all of Minato's attacks.

-----

So really there are very few high-tiers that Minato may lack the fire power to defeat, such as Kakuzu and Sandaime-Raikage. But then there is always strategy to consider too. Minato could figure out the same strategy that Naruto used to defeat Sandaime using his own hellbringer for instance. As far as Kakuzu goes, not only due I think he his highly underestimated and is actually much more powerful then people give him credit for, but if 1 high-tier out of all of them is simply a bad match up for Minato's style that isn't so bad, Minato would still draw with him at worse via Shiki Fuujin.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Sorin (Dec 29, 2016)

Turrin aren't you forgetting that Kakuzu himself doesn't have unlimited stamina? You argue about Tsunade and Kisame that they don't necessarily have the stamina to keep regenerating, both being way above Kakuzu in chakra capacity and stamina ,but then Kakuzu can keep Domu indefinitely? How that works?

Plus Kakuzu's best showing for domu is not that great. I would argue that a barrage of rasengans, which btw deal more damage internally than externally, perfect against domu, will work just fine. There is also the redirecting attack kinda barrier which will make gian return in his face from 2 meters when he inevitably steps near a seal. This is before we begin arguing for sage mode rasengans, frog songs or about the fact that Minato does have raiton affinity. There is no way in hell Kakuzu is a bad match up for Minato. The hype and feats are so much apart it's mind boggling comparing them. 

Kakuzu was pretty much off paneled and defeated by a group of Chouji, Hinata and Tenten. Let that sink in; Ten motherfucking ten. There's no way in hell this dude would be more than a nuisance to Minato. He'll have trouble registering what really hits him since he'll be constantly blitzed.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 29, 2016)

Minato is high kage tier but he isn't as unbeatable as people believe here. His feats are strecthed to hell and he gets wanked to hell which suks because he is objectively very powerful. But the fact that people think Minato can beat high kages in most scenarios is bullshit. People love using A>B>C logic and takes feats out of context "like minato blitzing obito" or Minato making a "career out of beating Ei and Bee at once".

Minato's immense speed, smarts, and FTG make him high kage level. You areright in him lacking DC but he also has summons like Gamabunta who can use suitons, he possibly has some elementals to work with ( i grant him basic mastery), and with sealing he has an auto tie move, can seal bjuu, and his hakke seal can work in large summons and spirits so there is that. FCD is only realy good for ambush not really applicable mid battle against non summons

Base minato is comfortably high kage with the likes of Itachi, Bee, MS kakashi, Gai, etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sorin (Dec 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> *Minato is high kage tier but he isn't as unbeatable as people believe here. His feats are strecthed to hell and he gets wanked to hell which suks because he is objectively very powerful. But the fact that people think Minato can beat high kages in most scenarios is bullshit. People love using A>B>C logic and takes feats out of context "like minato blitzing obito" or Minato making a "career out of beating Ei and Bee at once".*
> 
> Minato's immense speed, smarts, and FTG make him high kage level. You areright in him lacking DC but he also has summons like Gamabunta who can use suitons, he possibly has some elementals to work with ( i grant him basic mastery), and with sealing he has an auto tie move, can seal bjuu, and his hakke seal can work in large summons and spirits so there is that. FCD is only realy good for ambush not really applicable mid battle against non summons
> 
> Base minato is comfortably high kage with the likes of Itachi, Bee, MS kakashi, Gai, etc.



I agree. But isn't this something done for every character in the manga? At least the popular ones? Not sure why you're singling out Minato.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## adeshina365 (Dec 29, 2016)

I agree with the OP. Fanboy logic is too pervasive unfortunately.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 29, 2016)

Sorin said:


> I agree. But isn't this something done for every character in the manga? At least the popular ones? Not sure why you're singling out Minato.


Because Minato's feats are the most stretched and against high level characters. If Minato can "make a career out of bullying a mid kage (Ei) and High Kage (Bee)" than he isn't a high kage level ninja. If Minato can "blitz 3 tomoe w/ shushin speed" and has Hirashin to boot which can "casually counter V2 ei speed at all times" than he isn't high kage level. People treat him like a Top Tier comparable to Hashirama and shit while also ignoring the other haxes (like Sharingan glance, poison, etc)/ battle strategies in verse that differ from physical fighters (Ei and Bee) and people trying to make contact and end fights with one shot (kamui).

In short Minato has turned into a high tier skeleton key. You can use his moveset and hype to fit him into any argument and get him out of any argument. "FTG is instant, and Minato pwned Bee and V2 Ei, so he isn't getting tagged..". "Minato reacted to Kamui warp surprise, he isn't going to be ambushed if he attacks a clone, he'll just poof away". "Minato can't be genjutsu'd because he doesn't have to make eye contact and can just teleport rapidly from every kunai to counter." "Minato can coutner anyone he can't beat with a FCD jutsu on top of their head". With everyone one else we (except major fanboys) except the advantages and limitations of arsenals, hype, etc. For example Tsukuyomi can one shot a ton of people, but we understand it can't be spammed more than 2-3 times and Itachi needs eye contact. People will go to the moon and back looking for ways for characters to avoid eye contact for a second and ignore hype like a whole country banning 1v1 battle with generic 3 tomoe wielders because of genjutsu and how hard it is to counter. Minato's FTG is very similar. He just has to touch you, or get a kunai a few inches to a few feet away from you to ambush you with a blitz. But he still had to do this...Ninja typically don't let other ninja get close...Minato had the luxury of facing a hotheaded Ei who blitz in to said distance and Minato scraped by a perfect counter. But Bee took time to decipher Minato's intentions and intercepted FTG and then would have forced a simultaneous injury vs Minato (albeit he would have been on the losing end) the second time and being marked is literally the worst fate possible. Obito countered Minato's physical speed and chained him, forcing him to use a surprise ambush outside of his LOS, yet "Minato is physically faster than Bee or Itachi and can beat out 3 tomoe perception!". 

Essentially he is often times IMO treated like the Nagato under Nagato. Everyone excepts he most likely loses there but against anyone else it's fair for him to bamflash low diff, and no one calls the perpetual Minato fanboys out for their biases because most are good debaters overall and most people don't have inherent bias or aversion towards Minato like Itachi, Sasuke, etc given his hero like portrayal and him being Nardo's dad in story.


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## Android (Dec 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> yet "Minato is physically faster than Bee or Itachi and can beat out 3 tomoe perception!".


Because he is

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dr. White (Dec 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Because he is


No he isn't. Obito Kamui'd through his strike form inches away and timed it well enough to grab his hand. Obito Kamui'd against Minato's physical rush with no Hirashin antics and chained him him down. Minato only ever got over on Obito by being outside of his LOS (Obito looking up to stab Naruto, and Obito obvioulsy committing to thinking he would warp Minato first). That isn't the same as beating sharingan perception physically like Rock Lee did to Sasuke, or what Ei did to escape Amaterasu conjure.

Bee is much quicker with combat feats. 7 sword dance is a complxes series of movements that he can do at speeds actually overloading sharingan perception, He can physically move meters as V2 Ei is moving into lariat (a move much stronger than a casual punch), he intercepted Minato who was inches away from Ei while Bee himself was some meters away, he casually dodged Juugo and shushined across a plateua in said time, and that's not even counting his V1 boost.


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## Android (Dec 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No he isn't. Obito Kamui'd through his strike form inches away and timed it well enough to grab his hand. Obito Kamui'd against Minato's physical rush with no Hirashin antics and chained him him down. Minato only ever got over on Obito by being outside of his LOS (Obito looking up to stab Naruto, and Obito obvioulsy committing to thinking he would warp Minato first). That isn't the same as beating sharingan perception physically like Rock Lee did to Sasuke, or what Ei did to escape Amaterasu conjure.
> 
> Bee is much quicker with combat feats. 7 sword dance is a complxes series of movements that he can do at speeds actually overloading sharingan perception, He can physically move meters as V2 Ei is moving into lariat (a move much stronger than a casual punch), he intercepted Minato who was inches away from Ei while Bee himself was some meters away, he casually dodged Juugo and shushined across a plateua in said time, and that's not even counting his V1 boost.


Your examples are irrelevant for the simple fact that i'm talking about moving from point A to point B speed , that's where Minato clowns the likes of Itachi and Bee .Hand speed as well , he managed to throw a Kunai before A coud finish off his Shunshin , and strike Obito down before he could turn on his phasing again .
Bee didn't react to anything , Minato teleported at him , and did not even attack , this happened after he already tagged Bee w/o him knowing .

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Your examples are irrelevant for the simple fact that i'm talking about moving from point A to point B speed , that's where Minato clowns the likes of Itachi and Bee .Hand speed as well , he managed to throw a Kunai before A coud finish off his Shunshin , and strike Obito down before he could turn on his phasing again .
> Bee didn't react to anything , Minato teleported at him , and did not even attack , this happened after he already tagged Bee w/o him knowing .


Moving from point A to B is not solely combat relevant as their is no entity reacting to qualify how relevant it woudl be against beings who can react...Once again it's like saying Usain Bolt running at 25mph from point A to B could blitz and beat someone like floyd mayweather who can maybe only run at 13mph but strike much faster and more coordinated, or a shoot fighter which can move to shoot meters much faster than Bolt would be able to do.

And noooo.
A.) Obito reacted to Minato's initial strike form inches away and caught his hand bro. He also thwarted Minato dashing at him and chained him up. Minato relied on Obito comitting to Kamui, when Minato poofed away he instantly warped to inches form Obito. So Minato knew even before he poofed what he had to do, while Obito was mid attack and had to react to the surprise of Minato dissapearing and try to figure out what happened, Minato is no slouch in speed so he obviously naield him in such a compromised position.
B.) Vs Ei Minato moved his arm a foot at most as Ei moved almost a dozen of meters of space in that same time frame. This is why I gave you that lightning timing example. Lightning is sub relativistic but not everyone who reacts to it gets that scaling. You can have a mach 100 lightning timer which is leagues below lightnings actual speed, and because Minato teleports he just has to rely on mental reactions. Minato did not track Ei either has his gaze had not shifted, he was relying on movement tracking which is more linked to periphery vision. He was clearly pressed and once again moving a kunai inches into the air does not equate to striking speed as we saw with Obito reacting to two strikes and one fo them physically.

Killer Bee likewise was fast enough to grab Ei, before minato could strike him from inches away despite Bee being meters away.

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## Android (Dec 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Moving from point A to B is not solely combat relevant as their is no entity reacting to qualify how relevant it woudl be against beings who can react...Once again it's like saying Usain Bolt running at 25mph from point A to B could blitz and beat someone like floyd mayweather who can maybe only run at 13mph but strike much faster and more coordinated, or a shoot fighter which can move to shoot meters much faster than Bolt would be able to do.


Then we are both clearly talking about two different things , don't worry i'm not on the notion that Minato can blitz Itachi or Kakashi w/o Hiraishin , but he is faster than either of them in ALL terms of speed , be it shunshin speed , striking speed , reaction speed , you name it .
That is a huge advantage in any fight .


Dr. White said:


> A.) Obito reacted to Minato's initial strike form inches away and caught his hand bro. He also thwarted Minato dashing at him and chained him up. Minato relied on Obito comitting to Kamui, when Minato poofed away he instantly warped to inches form Obito. So Minato knew even before he poofed what he had to do, while Obito was mid attack and had to react to the surprise of Minato dissapearing and try to figure out what happened, Minato is no slouch in speed so he obviously naield him in such a compromised position.


Yes , Obito reacted with Kamui , Kamui =/= Obito's body speed , Obito's body speed is far slower than his own Kamui , which can be activated with a thought , Obito isn't fast enuff to keep up physically ,but Kamui is one of the most broken things in the universe, that's why people like KCM Naruto , Kakashi , Gai had to go through hell and back just to touch Obito even when they had knowledge on his Kamui .
The reason Minato was caught with chains was lack of knowledge on Obito's phasing ability , not because he was slow to react .


Dr. White said:


> B.) Vs Ei Minato moved his arm a foot at most as Ei moved almost a dozen of meters of space in that same time frame. This is why I gave you that lightning timing example. Lightning is sub relativistic but not everyone who reacts to it gets that scaling. You can have a mach 100 lightning timer which is leagues below lightnings actual speed, and because Minato teleports he just has to rely on mental reactions. Minato did not track Ei either has his gaze had not shifted, he was relying on movement tracking which is more linked to periphery vision. He was clearly pressed and once again moving a kunai inches into the air does not equate to striking speed as we saw with Obito reacting to two strikes and one fo them physically.


Did Minato move his arm before A could finish off his dash ? yes or no ? the answer is yes , so that counts as a physical reaction , no matter how you look at it , and no , i didn't equate that to striking speed , i was talking about hand speed , Itachi , nor bee , have a feat on this level .


Dr. White said:


> Killer Bee likewise was fast enough to grab Ei, before minato could strike him from inches away despite Bee being meters away.


Yes , it's easier to react when the attcak isnt directed at you , that's why e.g Sasuke could intercept Juubito attacking KCM Naruto , but got blitzed when Juubito rushed him , Bee couldn't even notice that Minato put a FTG tag on him until later , neither did A .

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## Icegaze (Dec 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Moving from point A to B is not solely combat relevant as their is no entity reacting to qualify how relevant it woudl be against beings who can react...Once again it's like saying Usain Bolt running at 25mph from point A to B could blitz and beat someone like floyd mayweather who can maybe only run at 13mph but strike much faster and more coordinated, or a shoot fighter which can move to shoot meters much faster than Bolt would be able to do.
> 
> And noooo.
> A.) Obito reacted to Minato's initial strike form inches away and caught his hand bro. He also thwarted Minato dashing at him and chained him up. Minato relied on Obito comitting to Kamui, when Minato poofed away he instantly warped to inches form Obito. So Minato knew even before he poofed what he had to do, while Obito was mid attack and had to react to the surprise of Minato dissapearing and try to figure out what happened, Minato is no slouch in speed so he obviously naield him in such a compromised position.
> ...




And yet for all Ay speed he never saw Minato Toss the Kunai in front of him 

It was obvious Minato let Ay cover that distance to counter attack him 

Notice the lack of surprise from Minato 

The only one surprised in that event was Ay 

Let's not make it sounds like Ay can move dozens of meters before Minato can move a muscle if so how did Ay keep loosing ? How would Ay admit to being slower than someone like that 

Secondly obito caught Minato hand after he had the jump on Minato from a sneak attack 

Obito knew what he wanted to do already , Minato swung by reflex against an enemy he just sensed behind him 

Thirdly Minato dash against obito where he chained him briefly 

Minato was analysing obito skill set and knew he had to go for a blind side attack when obito solidifies 

What Minato showed is a straight forward blitz where obito can see you can't happen hence the next attack was outside his LoS 

I can't see how someone with the skill set to be relevant to support against a juubi Jin don't make them high kage 

How many other ninja can be remotely relevant even in terms of support or relevant to save the entire alliance ?

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## Dr. White (Dec 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Then we are both clearly talking about two different things , don't worry i'm not on the notion that Minato can blitz Itachi or Kakashi w/o Hiraishin , but he is faster than either of them in ALL terms of speed , be it shunshin speed , striking speed , reaction speed , you name it .
> That is a huge advantage in any fight .


I disagree, Itachi and Bee have better hand speed/coordination in combat. Itachi can weave faster than sharingan can keep up with and Bee can do said feat via swordplay. That's better thanmoving a kunai an inch from your hand and using a teleport. Minato prob has better shushin speed than Itachi but not by much and I think Minato is >= Bee shushin speed. Minato has the best reactions to the fastest things, but he isn't as coordinated as sharingan pre cog. An Uchiha can track things, it's just there bodies can't keep up. 



> Yes , Obito reacted with Kamui , Kamui =/= Obito's body speed , Obito's body speed is far slower than his own Kamui , which can be activated with a thought , Obito isn't fast enuff to keep up physically ,but Kamui is one of the most broken things in the universe, that's why people like KCM Naruto , Kakashi , Gai had to go through hell and back just to touch Obito even when they had knowledge on his Kamui .


Yes so Obito reacted to Minato's striking speed both mentally and physically because he moved his hand to catch Minato's. This reaction being from inches away..


> The reason Minato was caught with chains was lack of knowledge on Obito's phasing ability , not because he was slow to react .


No...Obito phased through his first kunai strike and he then followed him. Minato knew in that encounter what Obito had, and Obito once again reacted to Minato and caught him in the chains before Minato could physically dodge them.



> Did Minato move his arm before A could finish off his dash ? yes or no ? the answer is yes , so that counts as a physical reaction , no matter how you look at it , and no , i didn't equate that to striking speed , i was talking about hand speed , Itachi , nor bee , have a feat on this level .


I know he reacted slightly but it was not casual, Minato was relying on his best biological indicators of motion hence why his eyes don't track Ei, he percevied moving in the distance between them and moved his arm a foot. Ei obviously is >>> Minato in speed but Minato is fast enough to get a slight motion. I understand it's impressive but once again that isn't gonna tell me how he will react to a blindside ambush if he's mid committed to an attack. Ei just simply charged in, no trickery or anything involved.If it doesn't translate to striking or hand weaving speed than at best it's an escape route vs really fast blitzers, which I would never argue against.



> Yes , it's easier to react when the attcak isnt directed at you , that's why e.g Sasuke could intercept Juubito attacking KCM Naruto , but got blitzed when Juubito rushed him , Bee couldn't even notice that Minato put a FTG tag on him until later , neither did A .


Yeah I agree interceptions doesn't mean that Bee is faster than Minato. But it does take away from Minato having untouchable stirking speed, as Bee was meters away and Minato was inches form Ei after instantly warping behind him.



Icegaze said:


> And yet for all Ay speed he never saw Minato Toss the Kunai in front of him
> 
> It was obvious Minato let Ay cover that distance to counter attack him


Uhm because Ei was focused on Minato who barely moved his arm a foot in the time span. Ei thought he was going to make contact and Minato instantly warped away and came back instantly for a counterattack. Ei clearly had the better physical speed . Minato had better mental reactions alone.



> Notice the lack of surprise from Minato


False, Minato is clearly unable to track Ei with his Iris and cornea and this relies on peripheral vision while reactively tossing a kunai up. The fact he got nipped on the nose furhter bolsters this.



> The only one surprised in that event was Ay
> 
> Let's not make it sounds like Ay can move dozens of meters before Minato can move a muscle if so how did Ay keep loosing ? How would Ay admit to being slower than someone like that


Minato wasn't surprised, but he clealry was not casually reacting to that lmao. The idea that Minaot let him get that close and chose to acheive the feat within a cenitmeter of having his face smashed in is absurdly ludicrous.

Yes "lets make it sound like Ei can move meters before Minato can move a muscle".  Ei crossed a good 5-10m and Minato's only physical reaction was a tossing a kunai inches from his hand. So Minato moved 2 feet (one to get the kunai and one to toss it up) while Ei moved 20 - 25 feet in the same time...

The reason he never hit Minato is because Minato could react to Ei with FTG which is an ultimate evasive tool especially in the hands of a high tier speedster. But Minato was clearly physically outmatched and despite being more reactive, it being just by a hint.


> Secondly obito caught Minato hand after he had the jump on Minato from a sneak attack
> 
> Obito knew what he wanted to do already , Minato swung by reflex against an enemy he just sensed behind him


This is irrelevant. Obito first went to offensive warp him and Minato reacted similar to how Fu reacted to Tobi's sneak assault. Then Minato used a strike from inches away which Obito defensive kamui'd from and caught Minato's hand. That is still reacting to him. Just like when Itachi snuck Bee, and dodged his subsequent Sameheda strike. 



> Thirdly Minato dash against obito where he chained him briefly
> 
> Minato was analysing obito skill set and knew he had to go for a blind side attack when obito solidifies
> 
> What Minato showed is a straight forward blitz where obito can see you can't happen hence the next attack was outside his LoS


Okay so basically what you're saying is that Minato couldn't beat out Kamui reactions (aka Obito's mental casting speed) with physical speed alone and thus after analyzing his ability had to rely on a blindside from outside of sharingan LOS? How does that support the notion of Minato being physically fast enough to outdue sharingan?



> I can't see how someone with the skill set to be relevant to support against a juubi Jin don't make them high kage
> 
> How many other ninja can be remotely relevant even in terms of support or relevant to save the entire alliance ?


When did I claim Minato wasn't a high kage level fighter?  ?


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## Sorin (Dec 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Because Minato's feats are the most stretched and against high level characters. If Minato can "make a career out of bullying a mid kage (Ei) and High Kage (Bee)" than he isn't a high kage level ninja. If Minato can "blitz 3 tomoe w/ shushin speed" and has Hirashin to boot which can "casually counter V2 ei speed at all times" than he isn't high kage level. People treat him like a Top Tier comparable to Hashirama and shit while also ignoring the other haxes (like Sharingan glance, poison, etc)/ battle strategies in verse that differ from physical fighters (Ei and Bee) and people trying to make contact and end fights with one shot (kamui).
> 
> In short Minato has turned into a high tier skeleton key. You can use his moveset and hype to fit him into any argument and get him out of any argument. "FTG is instant, and Minato pwned Bee and V2 Ei, so he isn't getting tagged..". "Minato reacted to Kamui warp surprise, he isn't going to be ambushed if he attacks a clone, he'll just poof away". "Minato can't be genjutsu'd because he doesn't have to make eye contact and can just teleport rapidly from every kunai to counter." "Minato can coutner anyone he can't beat with a FCD jutsu on top of their head". With everyone one else we (except major fanboys) except the advantages and limitations of arsenals, hype, etc. For example Tsukuyomi can one shot a ton of people, but we understand it can't be spammed more than 2-3 times and Itachi needs eye contact. People will go to the moon and back looking for ways for characters to avoid eye contact for a second and ignore hype like a whole country banning 1v1 battle with generic 3 tomoe wielders because of genjutsu and how hard it is to counter. Minato's FTG is very similar. He just has to touch you, or get a kunai a few inches to a few feet away from you to ambush you with a blitz. But he still had to do this...Ninja typically don't let other ninja get close...Minato had the luxury of facing a hotheaded Ei who blitz in to said distance and Minato scraped by a perfect counter. But Bee took time to decipher Minato's intentions and intercepted FTG and then would have forced a simultaneous injury vs Minato (albeit he would have been on the losing end) the second time and being marked is literally the worst fate possible. Obito countered Minato's physical speed and chained him, forcing him to use a surprise ambush outside of his LOS, yet "Minato is physically faster than Bee or Itachi and can beat out 3 tomoe perception!".
> 
> *Essentially he is often times IMO treated like the Nagato under Nagato. Everyone excepts he most likely loses there but against anyone else it's fair for him to bamflash low diff, and no one calls the perpetual Minato fanboys out for their biases because most are good debaters overall and most people don't have inherent bias or aversion towards Minato like Itachi, Sasuke, etc given his hero like portrayal and him being Nardo's dad in story.*



I haven't seen anyone arguing that Minato is anywhere close to Hashirama. I think everyone and their mother has a different tier for the likes of EMS Madara and Hashirama and to a lesser degree Nagato and SM Kabuto. 

If you refer to 1 or 2 fanboys, who can't see reason, then of course he's wanked. But that was my point. All the characters have few posters around here that take every feat of his favourite character and consider that it can counter everyone and everything. Minato is no different from Itachi, Hashirama, Madara etc. Hell even Kakashi has been wanked beyond belief by a few posters and he's my favourite character.

Bolded part, sorry, don't want to be rude or anything but that is straight up bullshit. Like I haven't seen people argue that Itachi can beat mid kage level characters with only 3 tomoe sharingan. How many times haven't I seen people argue that he can beat Jiraya/Orochimaru/Tsunade trio 10 out of 10 times. You can't come to me and tell me to the face that what i said is not true. Hell i have seen posts that Itachi beast Minato low to med diff. Therefore my question is, how is this different than people wanking Minato? How do good posters call out the Itachi and Sasuke fanboys but not Minato's? Minato has been called a bland, colgate smile, useless character since he goddamn appeared.  

Please, i may not post much around here but i lurk from time to time and have seen all kind of fanboys for every(mainly popular) characters.

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## DaVizWiz (Dec 29, 2016)

DC is one of the last categories when talking about overall power scale.

Deidara is middle of the pack mid kage for a reason. He's slow as shit, has no durability, entire arsenal is countered with a single element, has no close quarter combat ability, has virtually no hype.

SM Kabuto has limited DC. His strongest attack is Kimimaro's bones, there's nothing that those bones would pierce that Senpo Odama Rasengan couldn't destroy.

Minato is faster than everyone in the high kage category by a relatively high degree. Senpo Rasengan kills Obito, Danzo, Onoki, SM Kabuto (headshot), Tobirama on contact. Nagato can be killed with a regular kunai. So just so we're clear, that's 6 high kage levels he can one shot if his attack hits.

When we go through the mid kage levels Deidara, Tsunade, Gai, Kakashi, Rasa, Gaara, Mu, Sasori, Jiraiya, Itachi, MS Sasuke, Kisame, Mei, etc. can all be killed with either a senpo rasengan/odama rasengan or kunai slashes/piercings.

When we factor in all the shinobi in both classes, RDS, which can even be used through a bunshin, can kill all of them. Having the capability to at the very least tie with multiple high kage levels is enough to put you in that class.

For those shinobi who can survive his two best attacks, sealing them/their chakra with 8 trigrams is one way to defeat them, another way is to remove them from the battlefield by warping them into Gamabunta's mouth and having him desummon or by merely FTGing them to another area that is marked off battlefield, either to his shack or the hundreds of battlefield markers he's left behind across multiple countries in combat during his war and after, or to Obito which also counts as a BFR.

Stalemating Ei & Killer Bee on multiple occassions puts you in the high kage category.

A tie with 100% Kurama, which no shinobi below god level (other than Minato) can do puts you in the high kage category.

Having the ability to dominate small skirmish (battle dome 1v1 2v1 scenarios) and battlefield war scenarios (3 Boss Frogs, FTG 50-man eye blink kills) are two requirements needed to be in the high kage class.


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## Dr. White (Dec 29, 2016)

Sorin said:


> I haven't seen anyone arguing that Minato is anywhere close to Hashirama. I think everyone and their mother has a different tier for the likes of EMS Madara and Hashirama and to a lesser degree Nagato and SM Kabuto.


How long hav you been here? I've been active since 2011 (with breaks here and there) and seen this shit multiple times.



> If you refer to 1 or 2 fanboys, who can't see reason, then of course he's wanked. But that was my point. All the characters have few posters around here that take every feat of his favourite character and consider that it can counter everyone and everything. Minato is no different from Itachi, Hashirama, Madara etc. Hell even Kakashi has been wanked beyond belief by a few posters and he's my favourite character.


Like I said there is a difference though. I'm not talking about your hussain or SSM12, I'm talking about good posters like Rocky, WS, etc. I believe they get away with some extreme stuff and rarely is Minato wank questioned by most unless it's something like ridiculous like Minato blitzes Juubito.



> Bolded part, sorry, don't want to be rude or anything but that is straight up bullshit. Like I haven't seen people argue that Itachi can beat mid kage level characters with only 3 tomoe sharingan. How many times haven't I seen people argue that he can beat Jiraya/Orochimaru/Tsunade trio 10 out of 10 times. You can't come to me and tell me to the face that what i said is not true. Hell i have seen posts that Itachi beast Minato low to med diff. Therefore my question is, how is this different than people wanking Minato? How do good posters call out the Itachi and Sasuke fanboys but not Minato's? Minato has been called a bland, colgate smile, useless character since he goddamn appeared.


From what I observed trying to push Uchiha feats in general is taken much harsher than Minato, Jiraiya, Nagato, and Naruto feats. Like 3 tomoe hax and visual genjutsu are downplayed Imo despite being much easier to employ than something equally or more hax overall in hirashin.



> Please, i may not post much around here but i lurk from time to time and have seen all kind of fanboys for every(mainly popular) characters.


I have lurked since 07 and posted since 2011. Maybe It's just anecdotal on my part, but I def have seen the anti uchiha pro uzumaki trend for quite some time. The skeleton key aspect to his character is the my most relevant point.


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I disagree, Itachi and Bee have better hand speed/coordination in combat. Itachi can weave faster than sharingan can keep up with and Bee can do said feat via swordplay. That's better thanmoving a kunai an inch from your hand and using a teleport. Minato prob has better shushin speed than Itachi but not by much and I think Minato is >= Bee shushin speed. Minato has the best reactions to the fastest things, but he isn't as coordinated as sharingan pre cog. An Uchiha can track things, it's just there bodies can't keep up.
> 
> 
> Yes so Obito reacted to Minato's striking speed both mentally and physically because he moved his hand to catch Minato's. This reaction being from inches away..
> ...




He got nipped
Yet no scratch on his nose 
No comment from him either 

Yh need to clarify that fan fic of yours before carrying on 

Minato did not slightly get touched in any manner . 

Minato tossed the Kunai then because that's what a counter attack entails 
Getting behind your enemy 

It's no different from what tobirama did to Madara . Letting the guy strike so you can get behind


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## Dr. White (Dec 30, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> He got nipped
> Yet no scratch on his nose
> No comment from him either
> 
> ...


You didn't respond to multiple points especially like how you thought I was claiming Minato isn't a high kage tier.

It's complete BS to say Minato let him get that close, and no. Tobirama went into CqC vs Madara and slyly let a kunai driop after failing to land with it, then capatlized on it's position. Not let someone nigh blitz him form 10m away.

Minato did get nipped in the nose, zoom in on this scan and look at his nose. The nose Kishi highlighted barely scarping by as Ei's fist almost impaled his face. Once again, Minato beat him with FTG but by the literal skin on his nose.


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## Icegaze (Dec 30, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You didn't respond to multiple points especially like how you thought I was claiming Minato isn't a high kage tier.
> 
> It's complete BS to say Minato let him get that close, and no. Tobirama went into CqC vs Madara and slyly let a kunai driop after failing to land with it, then capatlized on it's position. Not let someone nigh blitz him form 10m away.
> 
> Minato did get nipped in the nose, zoom in on this scan and look at his nose. The nose Kishi highlighted barely scarping by as Ei's fist almost impaled his face. Once again, Minato beat him with FTG but by the literal skin on his nose.



Then you must concede to Minato having a super durable non bruisable nose

Cuz a punch at that speed if it grazed him would break the skin

On that scan you squinting at do you see broken skin ?

Let me know if you do then get back to me

A counter once again entails letting your enemy throw the first punch

Not much of a counter if you trying to stop them before they swing

You still haven't managed to explain how someone avoids something by the skin of their nose yet can move said 2M without Ay even seeing anything

Notice the excalamation mark indicating surprise from Ay

Odd to get blitz and not show surprise , indicates perhaps Minato wasn't surprised at all


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## Ghoztly (Dec 30, 2016)

People are seriously underestimating the base Rasengan.

It's not Naruto's (pre demi-god hax Naruto lol) where he needed to first, make a clone, and second, because his lack of speed his opponent had all the time in the world to try and come up with a counter, or at least brace for impact,  before Naruto actually hit them.

Minato could hit people with his almost instantaneously. Imagine getting kicked in the chest by someone. Now imagine getting kicked in the chest by someone out of nowhere with no knowledge of the attack. 

It's simple logic.

It's way more deadly than Naruto or Jiraiya wielding it. This thing fucking damaged the Jubi. Since when did it became a non lethal attack?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 30, 2016)

Mi


Icegaze said:


> Then you must concede to Minato having a super durable non bruisable nose
> 
> Cuz a punch at that speed if it grazed him would break the skin
> 
> ...


- Uhm stop reaching. The point of the mark on his nose is to show Minato just dodged his full speed, he didn't "casually react to him by letting Ei get that close.". Kishi doesn't need to draw an exclamation point and Minato doesn't need to comment on getting nudged for us to draw basic logical conclusions. Minato recognized Ei's prowess, Ei went balls to the wall all at once. Minato dodged it by a hair and countered him one move because Minato is reflexive and smart with teleportation. All this extra stuff about Minato casually reacting, or letting Ei get the close is nonsense. We saw Tobirama do this in CqC against Madara who was a bit faster. Minato was forced to rely oescaping first because he wasn't physically on par and couldn't do something like Tobirama, so instead chose to attack from a blidnspot after fleeing to saftey.

Ei is a one trick pony and adds no decpetion to his game, little variety, and relies on pure stats. He also barely uses any teamwork as we saw with Shi and Darui (Ei chose to rail off alone on Juugo and Sasuke), and Bee (blitzing in twice to try and harm Minato and once being saved by Bee the other being at expense.). That's why Minato had no problem dodging ei's speed all of the years and could do so while half turned towards Ei (Minato did not FTG from Ei with his back turned). 

As for his Rasengan, in base it is comparable to KN0 Naruto Odama Rasengan but Minato can form it with one hand while moving.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Mi
> 
> - Uhm stop reaching. The point of the mark on his nose is to show Minato just dodged his full speed, he didn't "casually react to him by letting Ei get that close.". Kishi doesn't need to draw an exclamation point and Minato doesn't need to comment on getting nudged for us to draw basic logical conclusions. Minato recognized Ei's prowess, Ei went balls to the wall all at once. Minato dodged it by a hair and countered him one move because Minato is reflexive and smart with teleportation. All this extra stuff about Minato casually reacting, or letting Ei get the close is nonsense. We saw Tobirama do this in CqC against Madara who was a bit faster. Minato was forced to rely oescaping first because he wasn't physically on par and couldn't do something like Tobirama, so instead chose to attack from a blidnspot after fleeing to saftey.
> 
> ...



How does one barely escape yet have the reactions to counter ? You also keep avoiding the fact that only A showed very clear surprise as I pointed out Minato did not 

Barely escaping implies narrowly being killed being able to counter hardly sounds like reflex to me and more anticipation. 

On the second attack he was half turned you scan squint feel free to look again 

One can't have the reactions to hirashin twice to carry away TSB yet can't react to A which is what you imply when you say Ay moved 10m before Minato could move 

Do we then assume if A was closer he would have won ?

If so did A always start at the same distance ?

Your argument is sort of as empty as those who claim Ay let Minato spread Kunai , as if that makes the slightest sense 

No one would let their enemy gain the upper hand while sitting back and doing nothing


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## Turrin (Dec 31, 2016)

Sorin said:


> Turrin aren't you forgetting that Kakuzu himself doesn't have unlimited stamina? You argue about Tsunade and Kisame that they don't necessarily have the stamina to keep regenerating, both being way above Kakuzu in chakra capacity and stamina ,but then Kakuzu can keep Domu indefinitely? How that works?
> 
> Plus Kakuzu's best showing for domu is not that great. I would argue that a barrage of rasengans, which btw deal more damage internally than externally, perfect against domu, will work just fine. There is also the redirecting attack kinda barrier which will make gian return in his face from 2 meters when he inevitably steps near a seal. This is before we begin arguing for sage mode rasengans, frog songs or about the fact that Minato does have raiton affinity. There is no way in hell Kakuzu is a bad match up for Minato. The hype and feats are so much apart it's mind boggling comparing them.


Kakuzu has more stamina than Orochimaru. He doesn't have more stamina than Tsunade depending how much chakra is stored in her seal, but Byakugo seems more chakra demanding than Domu. I also don't think Kakuzu needs Domu to tank Rasengans, he's extraordinarily durable in Long-Range Mode alone.



> Kakuzu was pretty much off paneled and defeated by a group of Chouji, Hinata and Tenten. Let that sink in; Ten motherfucking ten. There's no way in hell this dude would be more than a nuisance to Minato. He'll have trouble registering what really hits him since he'll be constantly blitzed.


In war a Team of Darui + Kotetsu + Izumu + Choji + Tenten + Many other Fodder, w/ the knowledge advantage, and Banana-Fan as an ideal weapon against Kakuzu, defeated him. Most Kages, even the stronger ones would loose in that scenario as well.


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Kakuzu has more stamina than Orochimaru. He doesn't have more stamina than Tsunade depending how much chakra is stored in her seal, but Byakugo seems more chakra demanding than Domu. I also don't think Kakuzu needs Domu to tank Rasengans, he's extraordinarily durable in Long-Range Mode alone.
> 
> 
> In war a Team of Darui + Kotetsu + Izumu + Choji + Tenten + Many other Fodder, w/ the knowledge advantage, and Banana-Fan as an ideal weapon against Kakuzu, defeated him. Most Kages, even the stronger ones would loose in that scenario as well.



Sounds like an interesting battle dome thread 
1010+ Darui +chouji+kotetsu +extra vs mid kage level Individuals 

Who you got
In mind ?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sounds like an interesting battle dome thread
> 1010+ Darui +chouji+kotetsu +extra vs mid kage level Individuals
> 
> Who you got
> In mind ?




Kakashit

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 3


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kakashit



Which version of kakashi 
Certainly not the kamui spammer 
He will troll

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Which version of kakashi
> Certainly not the kamui spammer
> He will troll



Was gonna say war arc.

Oh well, let's say low kage level pain arc kakashi

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Elite Uchiha (Dec 31, 2016)

How do people forget that, as a child, Minato defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that:

infiltrated the Konoha
captured the Kyuubi Jin under Sarutobi's watch
escaped without a trace - no ninja in the Konoha (from Sarutobi to the Sannin) could not find them
And people are trying to discount Minato? As a child, he was already Kage level. Ninjas like Minato and Itachi don't come around often.


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## Dr. White (Dec 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How does one barely escape yet have the reactions to counter ? You also keep avoiding the fact that only A showed very clear surprise as I pointed out Minato did not


What do you mean? Minato has FTG so as long as his thought goes through than he is safe. Minato moved his face a centimeters and his hand 1 foot while thinking of his next port but Ei



> Barely escaping implies narrowly being killed being able to counter hardly sounds like reflex to me and more anticipation.
> 
> On the second attack he was half turned you scan squint feel free to look again
> 
> One can't have the reactions to hirashin twice to carry away TSB yet can't react to A which is what you imply when you say Ay moved 10m before Minato could move


Minato did barely escape, that is a fact. Minato is never going to let a ninja hyped for his speed shushin towards him and get close enough to physically touch him with an attack. He isn't Obito. If Minato were "casually" reacting to V2 speed with physicality he would have counteed him similar to Obito or Tobirama in CqC. Minato needed to make a seperate jump to flee, and then port to his set up kunai (although in the manga it's not as clear if Minato threw the kunai during the shushin or after he ported) to attack. If Minato was so casual why couldn't he do it right after the first port to the kunai? 

Yes he had his body turned towards Ei from formelry being turned with his back towards Ei. Peripheral vision is a thing. 



> Do we then assume if A was closer he would have won ?


It depends. Minato would likely have been much more on guard at say 3 meters, but the numbers don't lie. Ei moved about 10m and Minato could only move inches. So I would go with yes.


> If so did A always start at the same distance ?


We have no idea. What we do know: Minato's mental reactions were quicker than V2 Ei physical speed from about 10m. Minato gained knowledge on Ei's top speed and survived it with no knowledge while Ei had surprise factor and successfully countered it. 

It's likely that he got around Ei's one trick pony status and also had the perfect move to counter. Ei also seemingly lacked that "killer calm" that both Minato and Bee possessed. 


> Your argument is sort of as empty as those who claim Ay let Minato spread Kunai , as if that makes the slightest sense


Non sequitur. You claimed Minato didn't get touched and he did. 



> No one would let their enemy gain the upper hand while sitting back and doing nothing


So you claim Ei letting Minato get the kunai out is a BS argument and claim sitting back and letting someone get the upper hand while doing nothing is another BS argument, but Minato purposefully let Ei speed from 10m close enough to touch his nose? He chose to counter with Hirashin by the skin of his nose instead of doing so more casually?


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> What do you mean? Minato has FTG so as long as his thought goes through than he is safe. Minato moved his face a centimeters and his hand 1 foot while thinking of his next port but Ei



minato must be fast enough to set up FTG. it isnt kamui




> Minato did barely escape, that is a fact. Minato is never going to let a ninja hyped for his speed shushin towards him and get close enough to physically touch him with an attack. He isn't Obito. If Minato were "casually" reacting to V2 speed with physicality he would have counteed him similar to Obito or Tobirama in CqC. Minato needed to make a seperate jump to flee, and then port to his set up kunai (although in the manga it's not as clear if Minato threw the kunai during the shushin or after he ported) to attack. If Minato was so casual why couldn't he do it right after the first port to the kunai?



it is only through a committed full frontal attack that minato could get behind Ay. the very fact that you think Ay crossed 10m after minato had tossed 30 kunai yet minato did not have a single thought in mind during all that period means you are horribly confused. are you saying not one single thought when through minato mind from the point where A started moving till he got in front of him?  if so you are saying minato thought process is slower than Ay can move several meters.  its quite obvious he let Ay commit. i cant see how it doesnt make sense.



> Yes he had his body turned towards Ei from formelry being turned with his back towards Ei. Peripheral vision is a thing.



so he does this after he has seen someone which by your interpretation can move several meters before minato can even form a thought process. would you do this if say i could run 5m before you could form a single thought?




> It depends. Minato would likely have been much more on guard at say 3 meters, but the numbers don't lie. Ei moved about 10m and Minato could only move inches. So I would go with yes.



ok so you confirmed Ay can move say 10m before minato can form a single thought. crazy how that massive speed difference between the 2 didnt result in Ay being called the faster of the 2



> We have no idea. What we do know: Minato's mental reactions were quicker than V2 Ei physical speed from about 10m. Minato gained knowledge on Ei's top speed and survived it with no knowledge while Ei had surprise factor and successfully countered it.



wait how are minato mental reactions quicker? remember by your interpretation Ay could move several meters before minato could even think. remember? his nose got grazed and all and he didnt let Ay get close which means Ay physical speed from several meters away>>> minato mental speed.



> It's likely that he got around Ei's one trick pony status and also had the perfect move to counter. Ei also seemingly lacked that "killer calm" that both Minato and Bee possessed.


 yh i didnt know killer calm would help minato think quicker



> Non sequitur. You claimed Minato didn't get touched and he did.


 i didnt claim it the manga showed it.




> So you claim Ei letting Minato get the kunai out is a BS argument and claim sitting back and letting someone get the upper hand while doing nothing is another BS argument, but Minato purposefully let Ei speed from 10m close enough to touch his nose? He chose to counter with Hirashin by the skin of his nose instead of doing so more casually?



think about it strategically if you can

is there a strategic purpose to letting AY launch a full speed assault?

yes- Ay is less likely to avoid attack when he jumps at an enemy both feet off the ground to throw a punch, or even moving at full speed. ever seen anyone avoid an attack while moving at full speed, it isnt so easy.

did Ay have a strategic purpoe for letting minato set up?

no- Ay gains nothing by letting minato spread kunai. in fact he looses all together. so why on earth would AY let minato do this?


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

ps: minato wrapped to the kunai on the tree by choice vs by necessity. since i find it hilarious for anyone to think Ay moved several meters before minato could think. "let me go here". do you know how quickly a thought is formed?

so we saying Ay can form a thought process and run several meters before minato can form a rather simple thought process. i.e "i want to go here"


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> That isn't at all what I said lmao. I said Ei moved several meters before Minato could even move one meter. I alreacy said he could mentally react and get the kunai up by moving his arm 1 foot. Minato got hit because only his arm could move fast enough to reach a distance of 1 foot (As moving your head requires you move your whole body) and he just moved enough not to get hurt via instant teleportation. That is the whole point of the scene and it's illustrations.
> 
> Ask Bee?
> 
> ...



Fair enough 
To avoid going in circles let's agree to disagree 

Because if A didn't let Minato spread 30 plus Kunai it means Minato was fast enough to do so before A could move 

Oh well . 

On topic though what does high kage level entail to you


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## Dr. White (Dec 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Because if A didn't let Minato spread 30 plus Kunai it means Minato was fast enough to do so before A could move


No you can't logically deduce that with any validity. That's saying Minato could grab his kunai from his waist, orient them in his hand, and spread them all before V2 Ei could shushin over, which is directly contradicted by the canon of Minato being able to move his arm at most a foot. For whatever reason he did not in that encounter, and he paid for it, but the other instances we have no idea how the fight played out so we can only generally base it around what we saw.


> Oh well .
> 
> On topic though what does high kage level entail to you


Being the top of the Kage level ninja that doesn't include super entities like RS, Juubi, 8th Gate, or top tiers like EMS MAdara, Hashirama, and to a lesser extent Nagato. I do think Minato is high kage level.


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## Icegaze (Dec 31, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> No you can't logically deduce that with any validity. That's saying Minato could grab his kunai from his waist, orient them in his hand, and spread them all before V2 Ei could shushin over, which is directly contradicted by the canon of Minato being able to move his arm at most a foot. For whatever reason he did not in that encounter, and he paid for it, but the other instances we have no idea how the fight played out so we can only generally base it around what we saw.
> 
> Being the top of the Kage level ninja that doesn't include super entities like RS, Juubi, 8th Gate, or top tiers like EMS MAdara, Hashirama, and to a lesser extent Nagato. I do think Minato is high kage level.



I only say that because it's illogical to allow Minato to do so . 

Agreed if nagato is the bar for high kage level


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## Dr. White (Dec 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I only say that because it's illogical to allow Minato to do so .
> 
> Agreed if nagato is the bar for high kage level


PIS / CIS. And like I said earlier Ei is a one trick pony. Minato obviously would get better at reacting to his top speed after Ei tried to ambush him w/ no knowledge the first time.


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## Azula (Jan 1, 2017)

One remarkable thing about Minato is that he will always be 4-5 moves ahead of anyone even though he and his opponent were on the same starting mark.

Against Raikage- flicks a kunai, telports to a tree. teleports back, grabs flung kunai and swings it and also slips in a mark on bee's tentacle
all while Raikage is still recovering from the shock of missing him.

Against Obito- uses Hiraishin level 2 to teleport, slams a Rasengan, slips a mark on the back, teleports back to said mark, stabs Obito, puts the Contract Seal.
all while Obito is still reaching for him.

Against Tobirama- Arrives ahead, Causually teleports juubi bomb, also set up the marks for hokage barriers, teleports to Naruto, and has a nice chat with them.
all while Tobirama is still dragging along Hiruzen and Hashirama.

Also remarkable is the slipping of a mark. The shining Rasengan and the bright yellow kunais will attract attention but the completely normal hand is just as dangerous.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 1, 2017)

Tbh i think minato is overrated, why cuz most he can't bypass most relevant defences cuz of lack of dc, a rasengan and a knife aint doing jack to;
- third raikages armour
- kisame absorbs chakra and has healing
-  kabuto nuff said
- domu
- sand shield and armour
- xters with suika no jutsu (cuz they are immune to physical attacks)
- any form of susano tanks rasengan and a knife
- any arial fighter who goes arieal is gonna give minato an extremely hard time
- bijuu shrouds and lightning armour

Not saying he looses to all of them, the ones he beat though are less than the xters that beat him IMO.


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Tbh i think minato is overrated, why cuz most he can't bypass most relevant defences cuz of lack of dc, a rasengan and a knife aint doing jack to;
> - third raikages armour
> - kisame absorbs chakra and has healing
> -  kabuto nuff said
> ...



What's an xter?
If you mean speedstar
None has suika no jutsu 

All these people you mentioned are still vulnerable to having their chakra tampered with guess who has seals that fuck with chakra ?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 1, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> What's an xter?
> If you mean speedstar
> None has suika no jutsu
> 
> All these people you mentioned are still vulnerable to having their chakra tampered with guess who has seals that fuck with chakra ?



Xter means character, in that post i meant characters with suika no jutsu like suigetsu and the gengetsu, he beats suigetsu somehow but he looses to gengetsu as not only does he have a liquid body, he has the power to put down minato unlike suigetsu. Those seals seemed to work on ONLY on fodders will little chakra or jinchurikis going wild. If it was procient he'd just tap ay/bee/obito/kurama with it, but that did'nt happen or oro would use it in a relevant fight


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Xter means character, in that post i meant characters with suika no jutsu like suigetsu and the gengetsu, he beats suigetsu somehow but he looses to gengetsu as not only does he have a liquid body, he has the power to put down minato unlike suigetsu. Those seals seemed to work on ONLY on fodders will little chakra or jinchurikis going wild. If it was procient he'd just tap ay/bee/obito/kurama with it, but that did'nt happen or oro would use it in a relevant fight



Having the power to put down an enemy you can't touch is rather futile wouldn't you say 

 oro who fought twice in the manga 
One where he had a better option I.e ET

The other where kishi seemed to decide on plot when he could use his hands and when he couldn't wouldn't really use oro as an example here 

Chiyo can also seal à Person chakra 

I hope you won't claim it's something She can't do in battle because she was unsuccessful against sasori


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## uchihakil (Jan 1, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Having the power to put down an enemy you can't touch is rather futile wouldn't you say
> 
> oro who fought twice in the manga
> One where he had a better option I.e ET
> ...



- jiraiya had it (did'nt seem to care bout it)
- minato did'nt bother using it in all his fights

chiyo's was'nt like there's though. kinda like saying nagato/pain can stop chakra then minato can (which was only used on weaklings or uncontrolled beasts)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2017)

His reflexes combined with Hiraishin are enough to put him on the top tier.
We've seen how he fights, he'll always litter the battlefield so he'll always have something to teleport to.

He's got a lot of Hiraishin variants which has a lot of implications for top tier battles. He's a sensor and has mastered all the Uzumaki sealing jutsu which in-itself justifies his top tier position. Speaking of seals, he's the only character who can block out a character's contract summoning and on top of that he can also place a permanent Hiraishin mark on his victims. 

Then there's the benefits he has with his summoning.

Minato's skill set seems simple comparable to other top tiers, but it is still quite decent. 

He's mid-Kage if you choose to underestimate him. Also it helps to place characters like Hashirama and Madara above top tier since they are part of a special tier above what we consider top tier.


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> His reflexes combined with Hiraishin are enough to put him on the top tier.
> We've seen how he fights, he'll always litter the battlefield so he'll always have something to teleport to.
> 
> He's got a lot of Hiraishin variants which has a lot of implications for top tier battles. He's a sensor and has mastered all the Uzumaki sealing jutsu which in-itself justifies his top tier position. Speaking of seals, he's the only character who can block out a character's contract summoning and on top of that he can also place a permanent Hiraishin mark on his victims.
> ...



Even underestimating him I can't see how he can be considered mid tier 
When his 1 jutsu alone was massively instrumental against a juubi Jin 
And saved the alliance multiple times


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Even underestimating him I can't see how he can be considered mid tier
> When his 1 jutsu alone was massively instrumental against a juubi Jin
> And saved the alliance multiple times



I suspect most believe a character needs a lot in their tool box to be top tier whereas they find it hard to believe when Minato can do that with a small pool of battle techniques.


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I suspect most believe a character needs a lot in their tool box to be top tier whereas they find it hard to believe when Minato can do that with a small pool of battle techniques.



I doubt that since 
Obito tool chest isn't more versatile 
If so barely


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> I doubt that since
> Obito tool chest isn't more versatile
> If so barely



Kamui, Mokuton, Rinnegan/Dual MS come to mind with Obito.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kamui, Mokuton, Rinnegan/Dual MS come to mind with Obito.


FTG, odama rasengans, sensing, boss summons, SM, S/T barriers, top tier reactions, crazy analytical ability, and god tier seals come to mind with minato.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 1, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> SM






WorldsStrongest said:


> god tier seals


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## uchihakil (Jan 1, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> FTG, odama rasengans, sensing, boss summons, SM, S/T barriers, top tier reactions, crazy analytical ability, and god tier seals come to mind with minato.



SM really?? god tier seals? really??


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## Troyse22 (Jan 1, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> SM really?? god tier seals? really??



That's why I was laughing.

His seals aren't god tier.

His SM is horrible


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## uchihakil (Jan 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> That's why I was laughing.
> 
> His seals aren't god tier.
> 
> His SM is horrible



Yea, was desperate to give the dude powers so he seems scarier when in actuality, dude does'nt have much going on for him in that department

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> FTG, odama rasengans, sensing, boss summons, SM, S/T barriers, top tier reactions, crazy analytical ability, and god tier seals come to mind with minato.



The barrier comes under FTG. The sealing jutsu are the Uzumaki seals and I already mentioned summoning and sensing with Minato ITT initially.

Things like "God tier seals" and "crazy analytical abilities" are useless since at the higher ends of the tier levels this is meaningless since others on said tier likely have "God tier ability" and "crazy analytical abilities".


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


>


RDS, contract seal, eight signed seal.

With RDS he trolled kurama out of 50% of his strength while minato was running on fumes.

With contract seal he revokes any summon from any character he can touch, which is quite a lot of characters.

And with eight signed seal he sealed by far the strongest biju into his son while minato was on his deathbed. And despite being on his deathbed the seal minato made was still more powerful than killer bees seal.

As for SM, while its true that he cannot maintain it for long, he can still enter instantly and without prep and can use it to augment an attack.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Troyse22 (Jan 1, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> RDS, contract seal, eight signed seal.
> 
> With RDS he trolled kurama out of 50% of his strength while minato was running on fumes.
> 
> ...



50% Karuma, hell, not even 100% Kurama is not worthy of being called a god tier sealing. Sealing Kaguya away is god tier shit, not Kurama.


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kamui, Mokuton, Rinnegan/Dual MS come to mind with Obito.



I mean single MS here 
Isn't something he ever showed

 ,SM, sealing jutsu , toad summon doesn't sound less versatile


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> I mean single MS here
> Isn't something he ever showed
> 
> ,SM, sealing jutsu , toad summon doesn't sound less versatile



But that works hand in hand with his Sharingan e.g. predict then warp.

Those other jutsu aren't commonly used by Minato hence they don't usually get factored in.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 50% Karuma, hell, not even 100% Kurama is not worthy of being called a god tier sealing. Sealing Kaguya away is god tier shit, not Kurama.


Okay...fair enough i guess...but outside of JJs or otsutsukis, which werent even a concept at that point in the manga, sealing away the entirety of kurama while at deaths door is a ridiculous sealing feat, hell bar any rikudo shit its by far the best seal feat in the verse.

Maybe "god tier" was excessive hyperbole, but minato has some of the best feats with seals in the verse.


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 50% Karuma, hell, not even 100% Kurama is not worthy of being called a god tier sealing. Sealing Kaguya away is god tier shit, not Kurama.



Kisame which you call a high tier 
Cannot fight obito or stop kyuubi though
In fact he would be rather helpless against it 
Worse off against obito 

So skill set is also quite important 

There are tons and tons of situations where Minato comes out as far superior to kisame 

Just saying 

Feel free to sell us on kisame


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## Icegaze (Jan 1, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> But that works hand in hand with his Sharingan e.g. predict then warp.
> 
> Those other jutsu aren't commonly used by Minato hence they don't usually get factored in.



Minato didn't have a lot of panel time but those things were all used in battle though they support his main ability hirashin 

The same way all obito does resolves around kamui


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 2, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Minato didn't have a lot of panel time but those things were all used in battle though they support his main ability hirashin
> 
> The same way all obito does resolves around kamui



You hit the nail in the head, panel time. Obito had more of it in favourable situations compared ot Minato.


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## Kyu (Jan 2, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> god tier seals? really??





Troyse22 said:


> That's why I was laughing.
> 
> His seals aren't god tier.




Reaper Death Seal
Contract Seal
Eight Trigram Seal
Double Tetragram Seal
_One-handed_ Bijuu unsealing 
I don't know what constitutes a "god tier seal" but Minato has demonstrated more expertise and diversity in the art of sealing than Kushina, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Hiruzen.

When it comes to genetically gifted humans, he's arguably the most skilled fūinjutsu user.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 2, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Reaper Death Seal
> Contract Seal
> Eight Trigram Seal
> Double Tetragram Seal
> ...



Hagoromo, Hamura, Sasuke, Naruto and Itachi are the only ones in possession of "god tier" seals. Everything you listed are very high tier seals, but certainly not god tier.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 2, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hagoromo, Hamura,


Because thats a fair comparison...but fair enough


Troyse22 said:


> Sasuke, Naruto


Featless in the art outside of a "point and shoot" ridiculously OP seal that was temporarily given to them by hagoromo and they cannot replicate.


Troyse22 said:


> and Itachi


Totsuka has no feats that minatos RDS cant replicate, so if you view that as god tier, then you must view RDS as god tier as well.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 2, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Because thats a fair comparison...but fair enough



So how the fuck are we supposed to discuss god tier seals if we can't talk about shinobi in possession of said god tier seals?

Perfectly fair comparison.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Featless in the art outside of a "point and shoot" ridiculously OP seal that was temporarily given to them by hagoromo and they cannot replicate.



They still were in possession of it, and they still canonically used it.

Perfectly valid point.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Totsuka has no feats that RDS cant replicate, so if you view that as god tier, then you must view RDS as god tier as well.



I can't imagine RDS sealing transcendent tier Shinobi, as RDS canonically only stripped Oro of his arms, whereas Totsuka casually sealed Orochimaru away.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 2, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So how the fuck are we supposed to discuss god tier seals if we can't talk about shinobi in possession of said god tier seals?
> 
> Perfectly fair comparison.





WorldsStrongest said:


> Because thats a fair comparison...*but fair enough*





Troyse22 said:


> I can't imagine RDS sealing transcendent tier Shinobi, as RDS canonically only stripped Oro of his arms, whereas Totsuka casually sealed Orochimaru away.


RDS when used by a half dead 70 year old man who has nowhere near minatos skill or hype in seals and was bordering on exhaustion you mean?

Compare that to when minato was exhausted, and he still sealed away 50% of kurama with it and maintained enough strength to seal the other 50% using a separate seal after being stabbed through the stomach...

Theres clearly a gap between minatos use of RDS and hiruzens, not oo mention a clear gap in sealing skill in general, no reason to assume nagato or orochimaru would be any more resistant to minatos RDS than kurama was.


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## uchihakil (Jan 3, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Reaper Death Seal
> Contract Seal
> Eight Trigram Seal
> Double Tetragram Seal
> ...



talking bout a suicide move doug, its a SUICIDE move, he does it, he dies. and the other seals are not useful in one on one battles, the one he used to free kurama from obitos control is the only useful one (which at the sametime aint so useful as 99.9% of shinobis dont fight with controlled summons, just obito and alive madara).so hOw are his sealings useful again in battles? not just naming the sealing techniques he has, but how useful are they


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## uchihakil (Jan 3, 2017)

Even deidara is gonna go up a tier with his suicide move and beat kage's he could'nt have without CO


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I've maintained my opinion that Minato is not high kage level, in fact, I only view him as mid kage at best. In my opinion, to make it into the "high kage" tier, one needs to be able to everything reasonably well and deal with tons of situations. However, Minato lacks one critical thing, DC. Rasengan is awful in comparison to things like infinite explosive tags, shinsu senju, Susanoo (Madara) etc etc.
> 
> The forums however, largely disagree, most seem completely, 100% certain that Minato belongs in the high kage/high tier area.
> 
> ...



Read the f**king manga, dude. Let the Battledome God explain something to you.

First of all, Minato is a lot faster than 99% of shinobi's roster, with very, very few exceptions. He is many times faster than any Sage except for RCM Naruto and SM Hashirama/SM Madara.

A simple kunai can cut off Orochimaru's arm and guess what Minato has in his arsenal - a huge load of kunais.

He can summon Gamabunta that can hold his own against a freakin' tailed beast.

He can freakin' mark people, redirect their jutsus (even back to them), can seal large motherf**kers and small shinobi motherf**kers, can slice Kurama's chakra in 2 halfs and seal both of them.

He is a high-kage level shinobi and almost the most powerful shinobi of all time, with Hashirama, Madara and few others (excluding god-likes and 8th gate Gai) being stronger than him.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 3, 2017)

Lol at Minato being the best at seals. 

I wonder who taught him all he knew.....


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol at Minato being the best at seals.
> 
> I wonder who taught him all he knew.....



Might not be the best, but definetely one of the best sealers in Narutoverse. No doubt about it. 

And a high-kage level shinobi for sure.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 3, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol at Minato being the best at seals.
> 
> I wonder who taught him all he knew.....


He learnt it since birth even ftg as well 

*Spoiler*: __ 



 kushina taught him


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


>



You do know RDs can't be seen till it grabs you 
How many seals have you seen so far that can troll 50% of kyuubi ?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> You do know RDs can't be seen till it grabs you
> How many seals have you seen so far that can troll 50% of kyuubi ?



Sealing 50% or 100% Kyuubi is not a god tier seal though


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sealing 50% or 100% Kyuubi is not a god tier seal though



agreed 
Bar god tier 
Minato has been the most impresssive in terms of seals 

Is all I am getting at 

We have seen how useful seals can be in the manga . 

You have addressed the fact that Minato usefulness in a war massively overshadows a lot of characters you would put in high tier 

Nor have you answered the issues on skill set being a requirement and how that stacks up against opponents

Case In point kisame would always loose to an unrestricted obito young old or any so long as he has kamui

However we know Minato trolls 

Dont also see 6G gai being a problem for Minato while it is for kisame


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## uchihakil (Jan 3, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> You do know RDs can't be seen till it grabs you
> How many seals have you seen so far that can troll 50% of kyuubi ?



which is a suicide technique, why are you guyz ignoring the fact that its a suicide move?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 3, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> which is a suicide technique, why are you guyz ignoring the fact that its a suicide move?


He can use a Clone, to do RDS, like Hiruzen.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 3, 2017)

"I try to control it, but it slips out when I get excited"


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## uchihakil (Jan 3, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> He can use a Clone, to do RDS, like Hiruzen.



if RDS can straightup be used without sacrificing one's life why did'nt hiruzen use a clone to seal away oro? do you know how the rds work? the user trades away his soul to the shinigami. Yes clones can be used to seal different targets but the rds contract is between the original user and the shinigami, so when rds is used the user sacrifices his soul there is no two ways bout it

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 3, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> Might not be the best, but definetely one of the best sealers in Narutoverse. No doubt about it.
> 
> And a high-kage level shinobi for sure.



I know...



professor83 said:


> He learnt it since birth even ftg as well
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




I know...


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> "I try to control it, but it slips out when I get excited"







Icegaze said:


> agreed
> Bar god tier
> Minato has been the most impresssive in terms of seals
> 
> ...



Okay, so we agree that Minato does not possess god tier seals?

It doesn't matter if Kisame loses to an unrestricted Obito, which i've stated several times. Kisame would beat more top tier Shinobi than Minato, Minato just happened to counter Obito.

Case in point, Kisame shit diffed Bee.
Minato and Bee stalemated each other.

If Kisame was armed with Samehada he would have forced 8th gate out of Gai, there's not a doubt in my mind about that.
Like I said numerous times, Kishi clearly felt the need to disarm Kisame in order to kill him off.

DISARMED Kisame canonically forced Gai into 7th gate AND using the strongest ability in said gate. To say 100% Kisame armed with Samehada would have trouble with 6th gate Gai is laughable.

I never considered Minato defeating 14 y/o Obito this crazy feat. Obito at the time was inexperienced and a child. Minato had decades more experience over Obito (well about 10-15 years)

Kisame beats more high tiers than Minato without question.

Kisame defeats 3rd Raikage. Minato couldn't dream of piercing his V2 armor.

Kisame low diffs all perfect jins bar Naruto, who he loses to once he receives his Rikudo powerup. 

Kisame low diffs BM Minato. Chakra arms feed Kisame. Daikodan absorbs Bijuudama and one shots Minato.

Minato loses to BM Minato

Minato loses to 3rd Raikage

Minato canonically loses or stalemates perfect jins.


Kisame is a respectable margin above Minato without question.

Anyone Minato can defeat bar Obito and (arguably) Gai, Kisame can replicate it, but with lower difficulty

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 3, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> "I try to control it, but it slips out when I get excited"


Dattebane


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Case in point, Kisame *High* diffed Bee *that did not go bijju mode*





Troyse22 said:


> Minato and Bee +*Ay *stalemated each other. *While Ay clearly admitted inferiority to minato*





Troyse22 said:


> I never considered Minato defeating 14 y/o Obito this crazy feat. Obito at the time was inexperienced and a child. Minato had decades more experience over Obito (well about 10-15 years)


Same obito controlled kurama . He can win kisame  low diff


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame low diffs all perfect jins bar Naruto, who he loses to once he receives his Rikudo powerup.


Sage mode naruto destroys kisame. He does not even Need kcm


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame low diffs BM Minato. Chakra arms feed Kisame. Daikodan absorbs Bijuudama and one shots Minato.


Kisame is not fast enough to intrercept chakra arms let alone take chakra from it.
At a favourable distance minato easily cuts off kisames head before he can weave a sign
He could not follow kcm naruto nor v2 bee who left him chest less. Minato is faster than them so he destroys kisames head
Daikodan gets teleported by s/t barrier
Dome gets destroyed with summons not to mention without chakra to feed the size of dome would obviously will be small
Base minato low diff's kisame



Troyse22 said:


> Minato canonically loses or stalemates perfect jins.


Except Ay admits He and bee were beaten by minato


Troyse22 said:


> *Minato* is a respectable margin above *Kisame* without question.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Same obito controlled kurama . He can win kisame  low diff
> 
> Sage mode naruto destroys kisame. He does not even Need kcm
> 
> ...



Cringed that entire paragraph.

Try again, Kisame is above Minato.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Cringed that entire paragraph.
> 
> Try again, Kisame is above Minato.


Try again


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Okay, so we agree that Minato does not possess god tier seals?
> 
> It doesn't matter if Kisame loses to an unrestricted Obito, which i've stated several times. Kisame would beat more top tier Shinobi than Minato, Minato just happened to counter Obito.
> 
> ...



Hard to take you seriously when you say killer bee stalemated Minato
When they had one exchange not a fight
Off one exchange bee trolled kisame since he blew off his chest

Even harder when you say Minato canonically stalemated or looses to perfect jins when the only one who faced him , faced him 2 Vs 1 


Lolz
Daikodan is featless so that's just fan hype

Kisame also gets shat on by Muu
While Minato hard trolls

 with kisame beating BM Minato when he wouldn't even be able to react to his speed
Hilarious

Kisame has no feats to suggest he would even react to Minato Kunai throw considering Minato could throw it before kamui wrap which is well above anything kisame has reacted to

Whats even more hilarious is kksame can't even react to killer bee casual tanto flick and got hurt

Against Minato that's death

He didn't do well either against a bloody pencil

But hey , he the only swordsman who needs his sword to react to help him block a linear attack


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> which is a suicide technique, why are you guyz ignoring the fact that its a suicide move?



So is 8G
Does that make it not a god level or high level technique


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Kisame has no feats to suggest he would even react to Minato Kunai




Except he canonically reacted to a blindside attack from Bee


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Except he canonically reacted to a blindside attack from Bee



And got stabbed 
Then again bee Is slower than Minato and has no feats to suggest he can stop obito from self wrapping 
While Minato Kunai throw speed exceeds kakashi kamui wrap which is even faster but hey 
Sure kisame who got bitch slapped by 6G simply due to have less chakra which has no baring on reactions would react to a faster Minato 

Suuure


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> And got stabbed
> Then again bee Is slower than Minato and has no feats to suggest he can stop obito from self wrapping
> While Minato Kunai throw speed exceeds kakashi kamui wrap which is even faster but hey
> Sure kisame who got bitch slapped by 6G simply due to have less chakra which has no baring on reactions would react to a faster Minato
> ...



Kisame with a fake Samehada who had to split his already 30% Chakra to trap Gais team.

Nice try though, I'll give you an A for effort


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame with a fake Samehada who had to split his already 30% Chakra to trap Gais team.
> 
> Nice try though, I'll give you an A for effort



Lolz
Still got blitz
Feel free to prove his reactions were slower 
the fastest person he has fought is 7G gai 
Second only to 6G 
Who trolled his reactions in 1 move 

I'll give you a D- for desperation 

As if using clones dulls reactions


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## uchihakil (Jan 3, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> So is 8G
> Does that make it not a god level or high level technique



yea, but 8 gates is a different mode entirely so it moves him up to god tiers,while xters like minato/deidara/hiruzen wont move a tier, kinda like telling me deidara is high kage tier cuz of c0


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## Icegaze (Jan 3, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> yea, but 8 gates is a different mode entirely so it moves him up to god tiers,while xters like minato/deidara/hiruzen wont move a tier, kinda like telling me deidara is high kage tier cuz of c0



C0 can be avoided though . Much easier than RDS
RDS can't be though
Also doesn't kill the user as quickly 
Not a mode but can still 1 shot
At least 3 different people before going down


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## Kyu (Jan 3, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol at Minato being the best at seals.
> 
> I wonder who taught him all he knew.....



Very cute. 

The 'character A taught character B X, therefore character A will always be better at X' notion is a hefty load of bullshit. 

You can be taught by someone & end up being more proficient in that very art. Natural aptitude is something Minato has in abundance, more-so than his wife, despite her innate affinity for sealing.

So yeah:



Kyu said:


> Minato has demonstrated more expertise and diversity in the art of sealing than Kushina, Tsunade, Jiraiya, and Hiruzen.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Kyu said:


> more-so than his *hot* wife



ftfy

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kyu (Jan 3, 2017)

True.

On a side note, she had a ton going for her as a kunoichi: pure Uzumaki lineage, exceptionally strong life force(even by her clan's standards), nidaime Kyuubi jinchuuriki, Anti-Kaijuu weapons.

Minato was like "you wanna become Hokage? yeah no, I'mma put a baby in you".

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Kyu (Jan 3, 2017)

Fun fact: I was gonna change my username to Minato Namikaze before typing that.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Minato canonically loses or stalemates perfect jins.


After minato verbally announced his arrival and had no KI against Bee you mean...

Also note the panel where minato notices bee has a blade on him...hes not even surprised or worried in the slightest, if bee had reacted to FTG, which is something freaking JJ obito had trouble against 3 times...Dont you think minato would have praised him for such a feat and said something like "Well shit...ya gone n stalemated my hiraishin, yur purdy darn guud"

Yet nothing along those lines happened...strange...

Reactions: Like 2


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## StarWanderer (Jan 3, 2017)

That's how it goes on these forums - either Minato is overestimated as f*ck, or underestimated as f*ck. There is no way number f*cking three, in most cases.

And that's sad.

The fact is - only the absolute highest shinobi, such as Madara, Hashirama and few others, can take him out. Or at least make it a draw, like Third Raikage for example, who's just a bad match-up for him. 

Not mentioning God tiers here.

The rest will get f*cked. F*cking speedblitz. He can run around with his kunais and sh*t, can speedblitz people, can summon f*cking Gamabunta, can f*cking seal, some Rasengan, chakra reserves and sh*t.

Badass motherf*cker.

That's how powerful he truly is.

F*cking BASE Minato, got it?

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> That's how it goes on these forums - either Minato is overestimated as f*ck, or underestimated as f*ck. There is no way number f*cking three, in most cases.
> 
> And that's sad.
> 
> ...



Oh my gosh, y'all keep listing what hE has and that he has seals, which are NOT effective in 99.9% of one on one vs battles and the only one that is being a suicide move (yet even bragging bout his suicide move), and his pathetic rasengan that could'nt even kill obito who does'nt even have a defence nor an amazing healing ability like other healers. His rasengan aint scratching these guyz ever
- the third raikage
- gaara
- kisame
- gengetsu
- raikage (if obito who has no defence can survive that, raikage will surely tank it)
- kabuto etc

these guyz all no sell rasengan, (i'm sorry but its the truth rasengan is'nt good against high tiers except in matchups were minato's power counters his opponents like in obito's case)

and also food carter destroyer aint taking down any of the characters i listed (not to mention it requires minato to be on top of his opponent to pull that off)


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

And bout the flee on sight order. Is blitzing jounins really that impressive? even kakashi who just had sharingan and chidori was fearing talkless of someone who is faster with ftg, its not all dat impressive as someone like Muu should even be deadlier or gengetsu due to how stupid there powers are, even hebi sasuke would blitz alot of jounins so to me its not all that impressive. Him taking on masked man and ay and bee was though


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> His rasengan aint scratching





uchihakil said:


> - the third raikage


Minato could do exactly what naruto did against him and thats all she wrote, minato wouldnt even need to be in SM to manage it as his reaction time in base allows him to replicate that feat.



uchihakil said:


> - gaara



So now gaaras sand armor can tank an odama rasengan???



uchihakil said:


> - kisame


Headshot g freaking g.
Its the universal counter to base durability shtick characters


uchihakil said:


> - gengetsu


If minato is fast enough to hit obito before he goes intangible, you can bet your ass he is fast enough to no sell liquid form pal.



uchihakil said:


> - raikage


Base chidori harmed the raikage through his shroud, base rasengan for all intents and purposes is equal to chidori, minato uses a level of rasengan that is >>>Base rasengan, ergo the raikage is gonna feel a rasengan from the yellow flash.
Tack on SM amp if need be.



uchihakil said:


> - kabuto etc


Very few people in the verse can put DSM Kabuto down in one solid shot, just cuz minato cant doesnt make him a shit character or a non high tier fam



uchihakil said:


> and also food carter destroyer aint taking down any of the characters i listed


FCD flattens literally anyone on that list if they get hit by it, its a completely different form of damage than any one you mentioned has been shown tanking, dont see anyone on the list living a 100+ ton toad falling on their spine at terminal velocity...except maybe kabuto due to oral rebirth.


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato could do exactly what naruto did against him and thats all she wrote, minato wouldnt even need to be in SM to manage it as his reaction time in base allows him to replicate that feat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



one needs intel to do what naruto did to the raikage, one can't really figure out a weakness of the sorts in mid battle, and naruto needed to ask hachibi what happened, hachibi told him that the dude fell in his chest something minato does'nt know or figure out on his own. and if minato tries FCD on the third the third would tear bunta a new asshole with his finger nukite

chidori is a piercing technique that penetrated even domu, its like telling me cuz chidori = rasengan then odaama rasengan penetrates domu. that shit aint doing jack to domu. Could'nt even kill someone without a defence like raikage (obito) and you trying to tell me raikage dies from that?

- suika no jutsu is not like kamui that obito turns on and off. the hozuki clan have a liquid body, minato can never hurt him, its not bout speed. its just that minato has no way of hurting someone with a liquid body nor is food carter destroyer at its physical. the mizukage just reassembles himself

- kisame has something called samehada FYI, and its out of character for any rasengan user to target the head, they always target the mid section, samehada eats that shit anyway

- gaara's sand protected him from susano sword/c2 bombs/jouki boy explosion/bubble bombs etc and you think rasengan that could'nt kill obito is gonna breach someone who has absolute defence?? you are being biased and FCD would be stopped by gaara's sand (that was fast enough to stop ama)


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Oh my gosh, y'all keep listing what hE has and that he has seals, which are NOT effective in 99.9% of one on one vs battles and the only one that is being a suicide move (yet even bragging bout his suicide move), and his pathetic rasengan that could'nt even kill obito who does'nt even have a defence nor an amazing healing ability like other healers.



Man, seriously, dont write if you dont know sh*t. You embarrass yourself.

Seals are effective, if the opponent doesnt have tailed beast level chakra, which is hard to seal.

Obito's Zetsu-arm tanked Suigetsu's sword, Kubikiribōchō, without any damage whatsoever, yet Minato put Obito to the ground so hard with his Rasengan that the Zetsu-arm melted. That's how effective the Rasengan can be.

And he doesnt need an kind of defence, when he a lot faster than almost any shinobi and can simply dodge any attack.



uchihakil said:


> His rasengan aint scratching these guyz ever
> - the third raikage
> - gaara
> - kisame
> ...



The Third/Fourth Raikage are the only shinobi in your list that can survive a battle against Minato. The rest will either get killed by akunai/Rasengan, or get sealed away.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Very few people in the verse can put DSM Kabuto down in one solid shot, just cuz minato cant doesnt make him a shit character or a non high tier fam



Speedblitz him before he can make his body liquid with one kunai shot that either decapitates him, or cuts his head in half, killing him.



uchihakil said:


> and also food carter destroyer aint taking down any of the characters i listed (not to mention it requires minato to be on top of his opponent to pull that off)



Minato is many times faster than any character in your list, can mark his opponents, can summon a creature that can hold his own against a Bijuu, has lots of kunais which can cut down even characters as durable as Orochimaru.

Just as i said - either overestimated, or underestimated.


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> Man, seriously, dont write if you dont know sh*t. You embarrass yourself.
> 
> Seals are effective, if the opponent doesnt have tailed beast level chakra, which is hard to seal.
> 
> ...



you keep repeating the same damn thing, you say minato is faster so he beats them. Since when does SPEED KILL (yes an advantage in beating opponents but not a killing move)? You claim rasengan and a kunai would kill them.i told you the hozuki clan dont turn their liquification on its not like kamui (are you actually reading what i'm writing??? Minato can NOT do anything to gengetsu, he CAN NOT, whatever he does is futile cuz the DUDE HAS A LIQUID BODY. A WATERY BODY. HE CAN NOT BE HURT BY PHYSICAL ATTACKS. 

- i repeat for the millionth time again, neither rasengan nor kunais are doing jack to kisame (who can absorb rasengan and heal a kunai slash) And all these xters i listed are fast enough to fight minato .

- raikage's have lightning shroud minato needs ftg to be faster
- yes gaara is slower no contest but his sand is fast (fast enough to vlock amaterasu and madara's attacks)
- gengetsu is equal to muu whom side stepped a rasengan from kcm naruto who was comparable in speed with minato
- kisame (was able to react and put up his sword against v2 bee) minato would need ftg to blitz. even then his attacks get absorbed since his rasengan would have to make contact and samehada just absorbs it

Minato is no way fast enough to blitz these characters without ftg, and even with it he is helpless against them cuz they can either absorb/tank the attacks

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> only the absolute highest shinobi, such as Madara, Hashirama and few others, can take him out





StarWanderer said:


> Minato is overestimated as f*ck




There's that overestimation you're talking about


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

^^^^ This


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> you keep repeating the same damn thing, you say minato is faster so he beats them. Since when does SPEED KILL (yes an advantage in beating opponents but not a killing move)? You claim rasengan and a kunai would kill them.i told you the hozuki clan dont turn their liquification on its not like kamui (are you actually reading what i'm writing??? Minato can NOT do anything to gengetsu, he CAN NOT, whatever he does is futile cuz the DUDE HAS A LIQUID BODY. A WATERY BODY. HE CAN NOT BE HURT BY PHYSICAL ATTACKS.



Minato either seals him, or summons Gamabunta on his ass, who will spill him all over the battlefield with his huge ass sword. He can do that multiple times if needed, if Gengetsu can recover from that. And he can do that for a long time.




uchihakil said:


> - i repeat for the millionth time again, neither rasengan nor kunais are doing jack to kisame (who can absorb rasengan and heal a kunai slash)



He will break his bones if he puts him down in the same way as he put down teen Obito. I'll repeat - Obito's Zetsu-arm tanked Suigetsu's sword, Kubikiribōchō, without any damage whatsoever, yet Minato put Obito to the ground so hard with his Rasengan that the Zetsu-arm melted. 

Furthermore, a simple kunai can cut off Orochimaru's arm. Have you read the manga? Do you know how durable Oro is? 

Minato can decapitate Kisame with his kunai slash.

Plus, Minato can summon Gamabunta who alone is a very troublesome opponent for Kisame, partly because he can easily kill him with one slash of his sword.

Kisame is no match for Minato. Not even close.



uchihakil said:


> And all these xters i listed are fast enough to fight minato



Bullsh*t.




uchihakil said:


> - raikage's have lightning shroud minato needs ftg to be faster



No, he doesnt. He has a lot better Shunshin and overall speed feats, plus Raikage himself admits that Minato is, in fact, faster than him. He used FTG in their first battle because it's kinda risky to use Shunshin speed in a fight with someone whos abilities he doesnt know and who himself has a reputation of being fast shinobi. So he used his best ability - Hiraishin.




uchihakil said:


> - yes gaara is slower no contest but his sand is fast (fast enough to vlock amaterasu and madara's attacks)



Nowhere near as fast as Minato. He could block Madara's sword slash because the sand was there before attack. Or because Madara simply wasnt fighting at his full strength (he loves to dance, remember?). Hell, Madara easily dodged his sand before that. Deidara dodged his sand, Joki Boy was fast for his sand. 

Minato is in another speed tier.



uchihakil said:


> - gengetsu is equal to muu whom side stepped a rasengan from kcm naruto who was comparable in speed with minato



That doesnt mean he is as fast as Muu, not to mention that Naruto attacked him in a free fall, without using his chakra arm. Plus, Minato is a lot faster than KCM Naruto, not comparable. Plus, he didnt use Shunshin there.




uchihakil said:


> - kisame (was able to react and put up his sword against v2 bee) minato would need ftg to blitz. even then his attacks get absorbed since his rasengan would have to make contact and samehada just absorbs it



That's just your opinion.




uchihakil said:


> Minato is no way fast enough to blitz these characters without ftg, and even with it he is helpless against them cuz they can either absorb/tank the attacks



I think i'll provide some of Minato's speed feats so i can negate all that bullsh*t you've posted. But i'll do it later. Meanwhile, you can go on with your posts. 




Troyse22 said:


> There's that *underestimation* you're talking about



Fixed.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> Fixed



So you think Minato beats god tiers solo? He beats Oro with full ETs or Kabuto with full ETs?

You're an idiot honestly.


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> Minato either seals him, or summons Gamabunta on his ass, who will spill him all over the battlefield with his huge ass sword. He can do that multiple times if needed, if Gengetsu can recover from that. And he can do that for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



tbh i aint debating with anyone who thinks minato does'nt need ftg to evade the raikage. Thats straightup manga denial. So goodluck with that. Ciao


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

i'm not even responding to the rest of your post if you believe dat shit. Minato is breaking kisame's bones lmfao like that does shit to someone whose torso was blown out *smfh*


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So now gaaras sand armor can tank an odama rasengan???


tf yes.

Unless you think Oodama rasengan >> 5 Legged Susanoo Slashes


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> i'm not even responding to the rest of your post if you believe dat shit. Minato is breaking kisame's bones lmfao like that does shit to someone whose torso was blown out *smfh*



And? Kisame needed to heal. Do you honestly believe he could fight and win with his entire torso caved in?


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> And? Kisame needed to heal. Do you honestly believe he could fight and win with his entire torso caved in?



And? are minato's attacks not healable??? Read my posts well.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Azula (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol at Minato being the best at seals.
> 
> I wonder who taught him all he knew.....




This is a bad post. 

1. Techniques are improved upon all the time. It is quite literally one of the major themes and is shown several times.

-Kabuto took all of orochimaru's research, applied his own genius to them and became so much more powerful than orochimaru ever was.
-Naruto was taught wind element manipulation by Asuma. Naruto became a much more stronger wind element user than him.

Minato himself is much more powerful Hiraishin user than Tobirama and has made more techniques out of it.
All of tobirama's jutsus are merely variation of basic summoning jutsu like hiraishin, edo tensei, exploding tags.

Minato also can perfectly balance all three components of sage chakra but Jiraiya his teacher can't.

This argument that "Ninja A is the original user of this jutsu therefore he must be better" is a shit one and goes against established manga showings.

The seal on Naruto was designed cleverly as Jiraiya said.
-Designed to let Naruto and Kyuubi's chakra mix.
-Fail safe destined to fix the seal should it reach breaking point.
-Minato and Kushina chakra sealed into it so that they may meet and help him, something he came up with right in front of her.

2. Even if Ninja A and Ninja B who has learnt from Ninja A have the exact same jutsu there can still be difference in their standings because of other factors such as their other jutsus.

Both Naruto and Minato have rasengan but only Minato can hit Obito with it because Hiraishin makes the difference.
Both Naruto and Minato have food cart destroyer but only Minato can shunshin all the way across konoha to drop Gamabunt on kyuubi.

So while Kushina may have the exact same seals as him she would still fall behind in making an effective use of them because Minato other already powerful abilities will open more doors for him and give him more flexibility.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> This is a bad post.
> 
> 1. Techniques are improved upon all the time. It is quite literally one of the major themes and is shown several times.
> 
> ...





Pretty sure seals has nothing to do with skill, but more to do with your knowledge of how to use it. Kushina taught Minato all the seals he knew, so to say he's somehow better than her at it is ridiculous.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Kushina taught Minato all the seals he knew, so to say he's somehow better than her at it is ridiculous.


Jiraiya taught Naruto rasengan, guess who's better at it now?


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Jiraiya taught Naruto rasengan, guess who's better at it now?



So you're telling me that Minato is better at seals than the Uzumaki clan. Right...


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> And? are minato's attacks not healable??? Read my posts well.


Yes, because Minato doesn't wear chakra around him like a coat. Minato mid diffs Kisame at best.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> So you're telling me that Minato is better at seals than the Uzumaki clan. Right...


No, but I love how you twisted by words. I was just showing you that it isn't all that absurd, for someone to be better than their teacher at something. An example was Jiraiya and Naruto. Jiraiya taught Naruto rasengan, but Naruto ended up being better at rasengan than him. I'm also not sure how him being better than Kushina, means he's better than the whole clan, Lmfao.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> No, but I love how you twisted by words. I was just showing you that it isn't all that absurd, for someone to be better than their teacher at something. An example was Jiraiya and Naruto. Jiraiya taught Naruto rasengan, but Naruto ended up being better at rasengan than him. I'm also not sure how him being better than Kushina, means he's better than the whole clan, Lmfao.




The only hint at Minato being "Better" than Kushina is the Death reaper seal. I can't remember whether Minato created it, or Kushina taught it to him. 

Kushina is essentially the Uzumaki clan's representative when it comes to sealing since she's the only known member with some hype/feats. To be better than Kushina is to be better than the Uzumaki clan.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> The only hint at Minato being "Better" than Kushina is the Death reaper seal. I can't remember whether Minato created it, or Kushina taught it to him.
> 
> Kushina is essentially the Uzumaki clan's representative when it comes to sealing since she's the only known member with some hype/feats. To be better than Kushina is to be better than the Uzumaki clan.


Ok, I was just showing you an example of someone being better than their teacher at something.


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## uchihakil (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Yes, because Minato doesn't wear chakra around him like a coat. Minato mid diffs Kisame at best.



Yea minato mid diffs someone that can absorb his rasengan and heal from his kunai wounds


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

W


uchihakil said:


> Yea minato mid diffs someone that can absorb his rasengan and heal from his kunai wounds


Yes, he does. He drops Gamabunta on his ass and calls it a day.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> one needs intel to do what naruto did to the raikage, one can't really figure out a weakness of the sorts in mid battle, and naruto needed to ask hachibi what happened, hachibi told him that the dude fell in his chest something minato does'nt know or figure out on his own. and if minato tries FCD on the third the third would tear bunta a new asshole with his finger nukite


Thats fair, and i wasnt disputing that, most matchups tend to be full knowledge scenarios anyway, espescially with minato involved due to FTGs hax.


uchihakil said:


> chidori is a piercing technique that penetrated even domu, its like telling me cuz chidori = rasengan then odaama rasengan penetrates domu. that shit aint doing jack to domu. Could'nt even kill someone without a defence like raikage (obito) and you trying to tell me raikage dies from that?


Nowhere did i say die or otherwise get one shotted, i said hed feel it...look again...


uchihakil said:


> suika no jutsu is not like kamui that obito turns on and off. the hozuki clan have a liquid body, minato can never hurt him, its not bout speed. its just that minato has no way of hurting someone with a liquid body nor is food carter destroyer at its physical. the mizukage just reassembles himself


Not according to the DB...



> Hydrification Technique (水化の術, Suika no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, Hiden, No rank, Supplementary
> User: Hoozuki Suigetsu
> 
> ...




If its "at will" that means the user needs to activate the technique in time for it to defend themselves, meaning minato can absolutely hit him before he turns into a puddle as he can outspeed kamui.



uchihakil said:


> - kisame has something called samehada FYI, and its out of character for any rasengan user to target the head, they always target the mid section, samehada eats that shit anyway


1. Samehada needs to eat chakra before it can heal kisame from dirt
2. Minato gets a finger on samehada and he ports it away to his and kushinas love shack on the leaf outskirts, or to obito who is hiding out in an akatsuki cave somewhere, or to one of the many random places he has left an FTG kunai over the years like where he fought A/B on panel. So bye bye the majority of kisames durability without samehada.
3. So its OOC for someone to not move their arms angle of approach up by a few degrees in order to win a fight? kay fam...not like someone as analytical as minato wont put 2 and 2 together and deduce a head shot as his best option of putting kisame down. This is the most off putting example of an OOC claim ive ever seen.
4. So samehada is now fast enough to react to a guy who blitzed the sharingan, and V2 AAAA on panel? Yeah fuck no.



uchihakil said:


> - gaara's sand protected him from susano sword/c2 bombs/jouki boy explosion/bubble bombs etc and you think rasengan that could'nt kill obito is gonna breach someone who has absolute defence??


Rasengan deals damage far differently from all things you mentioned, the things you mentioned all deal damage externally, whereas rasengan screws up the innards of your target, its not meant to do much external damage yet it still incaps people with little to no exterior damage, it even dicks over regen to a degree, as shown with kabuto. Its practically tailor made to say "fuck it" to physical armor, and gaaras sand shell is puny armor...*P1 rock lee and P1 sasukes taijutsu hits were cracking that shit*...Id also argue that an odama rasengan hits a tad harder than deidaras clay bombs bar C3, and im pretty sure his C1 bombs are what incapped gaara and rasengan hits harder than C1 for damn sure. As for gaaras sand cloud....if P1 rock lees speed was sufficient to no sell that shit, what do you think is gonna happen against the yellow flash with FTG?


uchihakil said:


> you are being biased and FCD would be stopped by gaara's sand (that was fast enough to stop ama)


This is BS...
1. Gaaras sand didnt stop ama...it stopped enton as it is addressed specifically by name....which is slower
2. Barring when gaara stopped *mads super lightened boulder with ohnokis help in a freaking desert*, when has gaara ever stopped something the size of a boss summon? When has gaara even shown the reaction time to grab enough sand fast enough to block something that size that can blitz 100% kurama from an entire village away???

Oh thats right...never...


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> externally, whereas rasengan screws up the innards of your target, its not meant to do much external damage yet it still incaps people with little to no exterior damage, it even dicks over regen to a degree, as shown with kabuto. Its practically tailor made to say "fuck it" to physical armor, and gaaras sand shell is puny armor...*P1 rock lee and P1 sasukes taijutsu hits were cracking that shit*...Id also argue that an odama rasengan hits a tad harder than deidaras clay bombs bar C3, and im pretty sure his C1 bombs are what incapped gaara and rasengan hits harder than C1 for damn sure. As for gaaras sand cloud....if P1 rock lees speed was sufficient to no sell that shit, what do you think is gonna happen against the yellow flash?


I think he meant using Sand to intercept and block the attack before it reaches him, not the sand armor that he wears.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I think he meant using Sand to intercept and block the attack before it reaches him, not the sand armor that he wears.





WorldsStrongest said:


> As for gaaras sand cloud....if P1 rock lees speed was sufficient to no sell that shit, what do you think is gonna happen against the yellow flash with FTG?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Stuff



I wasn't debating that Minato > Gaara. I was just saying that he was likely referring to the sand cloud.  But I didn't see that part of your post


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> tf yes.
> 
> Unless you think Oodama rasengan >> 5 Legged Susanoo Slashes


Its not that rasengan hits harder, its that the susanoos only deal external damage, whereas rasengan does the majority of its damage internally, basically bypassing physical durability as according to kakashis statement regarding internal attacks, no matter how tough an opponents exterior, their interior is always vulnerable.

Now im obviously not saying rasengan does the same thing as juuken, but they have similarities in terms of how they do damage, thats all im saying.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I wasn't debating that Minato > Gaara. I was just saying that he was likely referring to the sand cloud.  But I didn't see that part of your post


Oh no i got that, i just pointed out what i thought you may have overlooked is all


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## Kyu (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Kushina taught Minato all the seals he knew, so to say he's somehow better than her at it is ridiculous.





Sapherosth said:


> The only hint at Minato being "Better" than Kushina is the Death reaper seal. I can't remember whether Minato created it, or Kushina taught it to him.





Sapherosth said:


> To be better than Kushina is to be better than the Uzumaki clan.



Show me Kushina:


modifying a high-level double layered seal to prevent potential calamities in the future - [1] 
restoring a seal to it's original strength with a limited chakra source - [2]
casually extracting _and_ resealing a bijuu using one-handed seals - [3]
altering Hakke no Fūin's structure so that their son can reap the benefits of being a jinchuuriki - [4]
implementing fūinjutsu in battle with any semblance of fluidity - [5, 6]
sealing chakra into people - [7]

...then we'll talk.  

Feats take precedence over hype and shit-tier reasoning any day of the week. 



Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure seals has nothing to do with skill, but more to do with your knowledge of how to use it.



Um, using what you know to do something well _is_ skill.



> 2
> *skill*
> _noun_
> *Definition of skill*
> ...

Reactions: Like 3


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## Icegaze (Jan 4, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Yea minato mid diffs someone that can absorb his rasengan and heal from his kunai wounds



Kisame can't grow a head though 
Then again once hit by rasengan Minato can blitz him rinse and repeat 
So yes kisame gets low diff by Minato casually


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## StarWanderer (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So you think Minato beats god tiers solo? He beats Oro with full ETs or Kabuto with full ETs?
> 
> You're an idiot honestly.



He beats Oro with prepped ET and he has a huge chance of killing Kabuto before he can summon his prepped ET. Read the f*cking manga before posting here, son.




uchihakil said:


> tbh i aint debating with anyone who thinks minato does'nt need ftg to evade the raikage. Thats straightup manga denial. So goodluck with that. Ciao



Yeah, he doesnt f*cking need one.

Raikage Shunshinned with Naruto, Naruto praised his speed and in response, Raikage said that he is the fastest shinobi alive now when Minato is dead. After Shushinning with Naruto and after Naruto praising his speed. Raikage himself basicly admits that Minato is faster than him overall. Minato was above him when he was 35, he is above a 52 years old Fourth Raikage.

Now in case if you dont get it. Imagine a boxing match between two boxers. After the match,

Furthermore, motherf*ckin' feats dude. Raikage was super fast for Tsunade and MS Sasuke, both of them do not possess super speed and super reflexes comparable to War Arc SM Narutos. Minato has shown super-fast movement speed *AND* Shunshin compared to those of War Arc SM Naruto. His Shunshin was faster than Tobiramas. His movement speed was so fast that he could move during Juubidara's Gudoudama flight. And the list goes on.

Better feats, better portrayal, and Raikage himself admits Minato is faster than him.

So yeah - Minato can evade him without FTG.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 5, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> He beats Oro with prepped ET



Sig worthy.

Now Minato can beat Oro, Edo Hiruzen, Tobirama and Hashirama.

What nonsense


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## StarWanderer (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sig worthy.
> 
> Now Minato can beat Oro, Edo Hiruzen, Tobirama and Hashirama.
> 
> What nonsense



Minato can kill Oro before he summons ET. Speedblitz.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sig worthy.
> 
> Now Minato can beat Oro, Edo Hiruzen, Tobirama and Hashirama.
> 
> What nonsense


He beats everyone except hahsirama


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Its not that rasengan hits harder, its that the susanoos only deal external damage, whereas rasengan does the majority of its damage internally, basically bypassing physical durability as according to kakashis statement regarding internal attacks, no matter how tough an opponents exterior, their interior is always vulnerable.
> 
> Now im obviously not saying rasengan does the same thing as juuken, but they have similarities in terms of how they do damage, thats all im saying.


Not really, Rasengan is much more akin to the extrernal fist arts of Gai which rely on hitting the external parts of the body to transfer destrctuvie energy. Jyuuken users literally needle point into the body's of people destroying internal organds and chakra system. Rasegan is very similar to Gated Gai punching someone into a rock, the only difference being Rasengan has a rotation effect which can drill.

It does not bypass external durability though.


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Not really, Rasengan is much more akin to the extrernal fist arts of Gai which rely on hitting the external parts of the body to transfer destrctuvie energy. Jyuuken users literally needle point into the body's of people destroying internal organds and chakra system. Rasegan is very similar to Gated Gai punching someone into a rock, the only difference being Rasengan has a rotation effect which can drill.
> 
> It does not bypass external durability though.



I'll reply to your other post 
As well
But for now 
Rasengan does deal internal damage 
Case in point against kabuto despite healing the external wound he still fell due to internal damage despite his skin barely being breached 

Same situation with the water tank when naruto fought sasuke on the roof 

It didn't just punch a hole through the tank 

It blew the back of the tank despite barely having visible
Damage to the front


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Not really, Rasengan is much more akin to the extrernal fist arts of Gai which rely on hitting the external parts of the body to transfer destrctuvie energy. Jyuuken users literally needle point into the body's of people destroying internal organds and chakra system. Rasegan is very similar to Gated Gai punching someone into a rock, the only difference being Rasengan has a rotation effect which can drill.
> 
> It does not bypass external durability though.





Icegaze said:


> I'll reply to your other post
> As well
> But for now
> Rasengan does deal internal damage
> ...


^


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sig worthy.
> 
> Now Minato can beat Oro, Edo Hiruzen, Tobirama and Hashirama.
> 
> What nonsense


Contract seal ring a bell? Oro can have all the edos out and good to go but minato simply blitzes oro (which is laughably easy) and hits him with contract seal, worst case scenario, oro loses the edos, best case, the edos play for team minato now...so yes... mnato does beat these guys, just not straight up.


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> ^


All that proves is that Rasengan will continue to diserpse energy after breaking the first layer of defense, which once again would be the same with a regular strong punch that could break skin and bone. The force will go through the body. That's not the same as bypassing external defenses lmao.

Same reason Kabuto had to heal vs KN3 Roar because the shockwave and energy fucked his innards from external force, and vs NArdo he clearly had a crater like injury their lmao.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> All that proves is that Rasengan will continue to diserpse energy after breaking the first layer of defense, which once again would be the same with a regular strong punch that could break skin and bone. The force will go through the body. That's not the same as bypassing external defenses lmao.
> 
> Same reason Kabuto had to heal vs KN3 Roar because the shockwave and energy fucked his innards from external force, and vs NArdo he clearly had a crater like injury their lmao.



rasengan is blunt force trauma maximized. point is even if kisame doesnt show alot of visual physical damage his insides would be quite damaged. afterall a juubi jin did regen from rasegan damage, as did kabuto. however if you notice unlike KN3 roar kabuto couldnt get up from rasegan. do read his comment on it. 

his chakra wasnt sufficient to deal with rasengan level of damage yet could with KN3 which was a shockwave .


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> rasengan is blunt force trauma maximized. point is even if kisame doesnt show alot of visual physical damage his insides would be quite damaged. afterall a juubi jin did regen from rasegan damage, as did kabuto. however if you notice unlike KN3 roar kabuto couldnt get up from rasegan. do read his comment on it.
> 
> his chakra wasnt sufficient to deal with rasengan level of damage yet could with KN3 which was a shockwave .


I agree with that but that =/ external durability being bypassed. Obito survived two next to his head and then a TBB rasengan straight to the face after his mask saved him.

Kabuto ran out of chakra vs Naruto because he wasn't as good as chakra control as his pt. 2 self hence why his pt. 2 chakra scalpel can easily cut through wood when his pt. 1 versions require prolonged touching to bypass skin. Kabuto had also just gotten done fighting Tsunade and Co + summoning for Orochimaru. Not to mention comparing the attacks rasengan is much more concentrated than a roar.


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> I agree with that but that =/ external durability being bypassed. Obito survived two next to his head and then a TBB rasengan straight to the face after his mask saved him.
> 
> Kabuto ran out of chakra vs Naruto because he wasn't as good as chakra control as his pt. 2 self hence why his pt. 2 chakra scalpel can easily cut through wood when his pt. 1 versions require prolonged touching to bypass skin. Kabuto had also just gotten done fighting Tsunade and Co + summoning for Orochimaru. Not to mention comparing the attacks rasengan is much more concentrated than a roar.



obito never survived a TBB rasegan to the face. his mask got hit by a rasegan. 

kabuto ran out of chakra despite having just taken a chakra pill the chapter before? kabuto stamina didnt increase between part 1 and that point in part 2. never stated or implied. 

could be as simple as pt 2 inflation though.  i dont know 

i think my point mostly is. most people wouldnt just lol tank a rasegan as its damage is quite extensive


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## Dr. White (Jan 5, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> obito never survived a TBB rasegan to the face. his mask got hit by a rasegan.
> 
> kabuto ran out of chakra despite having just taken a chakra pill the chapter before? kabuto stamina didnt increase between part 1 and that point in part 2. never stated or implied.
> 
> ...


Yes he did you whole point is that it will effects the innards past someone's defenses. Obito's Zetsu suit countered it twice, and his face took 0% damage despite it being a muchhhh stronger rasengan and from point blank.

Kabuto did he took a soldier pill so that he could  fight Tsunade (soldier pills enhance physicality and chakra). After doing so, he summoned huge snakes for Oro as well. Then he was forced to use his yin healing which takes a ton of chakra. Can't compare that to a fresh Kabuto who got hit by KN roar at the start of a battle.

I never said his reserves did rather his chakra control.

inflation still counts


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## Icegaze (Jan 5, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Yes he did you whole point is that it will effects the innards past someone's defenses. Obito's Zetsu suit countered it twice, and his face took 0% damage despite it being a muchhhh stronger rasengan and from point blank.
> 
> Kabuto did he took a soldier pill so that he could  fight Tsunade (soldier pills enhance physicality and chakra). After doing so, he summoned huge snakes for Oro as well. Then he was forced to use his yin healing which takes a ton of chakra. Can't compare that to a fresh Kabuto who got hit by KN roar at the start of a battle.
> 
> ...



scans of said TBB rasengan on obito face. entertain me. 

oro has the summon. who say it used kabuto chakra? when the seal was on oro arms?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

Minato is a very powerful and intelligent ninja, but he does have weaknesses. Namely:

*Lack of offense*

His best shown offensive technique is the Rasengan. This is likely why he was unable to kill Ei despite fighting/beating him several times. Ei can tank Chidori blades to the neck and likely can tank the Rasengan just as easily. A couple Mid Kage could potentially give Minato great difficulty because of their durability such as Kakuzu, Ei, Gengetsu, and the 3rd Raikage.

*Lack of genjutsu defense*

Minato also has no known special defense against genjutsu, which puts him at a disadvantage against lower tiered genjutsu users like Gengetsu. Many ninja such as jinchuriki, dojutsu users, biological freaks like Sasori, or people like Deidara that have specially designed genjutsu defenses... have this weakness covered in canon, but Minato does not. Minato is not always a blur. He stands still.


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## uchihakil (Jan 6, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats fair, and i wasnt disputing that, most matchups tend to be full knowledge scenarios anyway, espescially with minato involved due to FTGs hax.
> 
> Nowhere did i say die or otherwise get one shotted, i said hed feel it...look again...
> 
> ...



- what do you mean by rasengan does internal damage?? so you mean to say if sakura punches say asuma, she wont damage his organs? dude any strong enough attack can deal internal damage (even your normal car accidents) so stop trying to hype rasengan, its a simple energy ball. And if it bypasses durability and does damage to the internal organs that means it bypasses domu/lightning shroud/v2 cloaks etc which is obviously not the case. obito's masked tanked that shit and obito survived one that landed on his back

- kisame even without samehada can absorb chakra (go reread the manga when he was in turtle island and drained a leaf ninja) and samehada does'nt need to absorb someone elses chakra to heal kisame, it can heal kisame with kisame's chakra, and fused kisame can NOT even be separated.

- you can go ahead and point out when i said SAMEHADA IS FAST ENOUGH. What i said was kisame was fast enough to block v2 killer bees lariat with samehada who is much faster than base minato

- And bout the suika thing.Even when suigetsu was caught offguard (by juugo)or was blitz punched by killer bee he turned to water, so even if you hit'em they turn to water. And the first time when he was cut in half, the jutsu was'nt activated, its on by default, unless you care to give me a scan on when that ever happened (hurting the hozuki clan that is)


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## Kyu (Jan 6, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Tbh Oro using Edo's against Minato is possibly the dumbest thing he can do, as he could just turn them against him with a contract seal.



Depending on who's resurrected.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

Kyu said:


> Depending on who's resurrected.



Hiruzen claimed that only the Shiki Fujin could get rid of the Edos. Obito didn't know how to get rid of the Edos. Both probably knew about the contract seal (Obito definitely did, and Hiruzen did by hype) and knew it wouldn't work.


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## Icegaze (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Minato is a very powerful and intelligent ninja, but he does have weaknesses. Namely:
> 
> *Lack of offense*
> 
> ...



Wasn't Ay speed the reason why Madara had to hold Ay down to genjutsu him 
And why Ay himself on panel said to sasuke his genjutsu wouldn't work due to Ay moving speed 

Minato is faster


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## Icegaze (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Hiruzen claimed that only the Shiki Fujin could get rid of the Edos, and the entire world Alliance didn't have a clue how to stop it. It's unlikely the contract seal would work.



Yes contract seal would not remove them from the battle field 
It can however remove their control from oro 
Hiruzen said RDs would end it 
I.e remove the treath completely 
But you know this already


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Wasn't Ay speed the reason why Madara had to hold Ay down to genjutsu him



He didn't "have" to. The battle started with Gaara telling all the Gokage to look at Madara's eyes. The plot/character was the reason Madara didn't use genjutsu more frequently, not from a flack of opportunity.



Icegaze said:


> And why Ay himself on panel said to sasuke his genjutsu wouldn't work due to Ay moving speed



That's a mistranslation that persists on these boards. A was not talking about genjutsu, but about the Sharingan being able to track his movements. This is backed up by C internally agreeing with A that the Sharingan wouldn't be able to track A's movements.



Icegaze said:


> Yes contract seal would not remove them from the battle field
> It can however remove their control from oro
> Hiruzen said RDs would end it
> I.e remove the treath completely
> But you know this already



If that were true, Hiruzen would have used it to get real Hashirama/Tobirama back. Kabuto also bragged excessively that there was no counter to Edo Tensei and Obito/Hiruzen (who know of the contract seal) agreed and didn't consider it. Edo Tensei uses a special implanted talisman that is unlike basic contracts or genjutsu.


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## Azula (Jan 6, 2017)

Contract seal is likely from uzumaki so Hiruzen wouldn't know it. Hiruzen knowing uzumaki seals wasn't said or implied
He could use RDS because he saw Minato doing it. 
Of course its possible Contract seal was added later on and simply didn't exist in Part 1.

Kabuto's villainous bragging is no proof, every high tier thinks his jutsu can't be countered until they run into another high tier who counters it by defeating it or working around it.
Edo Sasori returning by his own accord and madara finding a way to release himsef is proof that Kabuto is full of shit.

And it would also be retarded of him to make a statement that takes into account long dead ninjas that from his perspective have no chance of returning.
I am sure he wouldnt brag about being an all powerful sage if Hashirama was alive.

Edo tensei control was lifted by Shisui's genjutsu. Two different jutsus.
Contract seal lifted Summoning Contract and Genjutsu on Kurama. Again different things.

Doesn't really matter if they are different types of jutsus as long as they are powerful they are efficient counters.

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## Icegaze (Jan 6, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> He didn't "have" to. The battle started with Gaara telling all the Gokage to look at Madara's eyes. The plot/character was the reason Madara didn't use genjutsu more frequently, not from a flack of opportunity.


 so why hold Ay down before finaly using it. holding him would be of no use if it wasnt required to ensure Ay doesnt just move thereby breakign LoS





> That's a mistranslation that persists on these boards. A was not talking about genjutsu, but about the Sharingan being able to track his movements. This is backed up by C internally agreeing with A that the Sharingan wouldn't be able to track A's movements.



if sharingan cant track his movements genjutsu cant land though. so the translation holds. 





> If that were true, Hiruzen would have used it to get real Hashirama/Tobirama back. Kabuto also bragged excessively that there was no counter to Edo Tensei and Obito/Hiruzen (who know of the contract seal) agreed and didn't consider it. Edo Tensei uses a special implanted talisman that is unlike basic contracts or genjutsu.



hiruzen does not have contract seal though. why assume he does? 

kabuto also called amaterasu the strongest ninjutsu..i would say his knowledge pool is limited. 

obito agreed cuz well the only one he knew who has contract seal was dead. so effectively the only other counter is no longer an issue. 

the tailsman still represents the contract does it not?

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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Contract seal is likely from uzumaki so Hiruzen wouldn't know it. Hiruzen knowing uzumaki seals wasn't said or implied



Uh, Shiki Fujin.



Icegaze said:


> kabuto also called amaterasu the strongest ninjutsu..i would say his knowledge pool is limited.



That was black Zetsu/Kaguya's will. Kabuto called Edo Tensei the strongest ninjutsu.


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## Azula (Jan 7, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Uh, Shiki Fujin.



...which he saw being performed by Minato during kyuubi attack as I said in my post.
That's how he knew how to use it.

Also Contract seal simply didnt exist because Hiruzen needed to be killed off.

It's funny that Hiruzen absolutely needed to use a suicide jutsu to counter Edos but in war arc Edos are being sealed left and right easily without anyone needing to kill himself ck

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## Icegaze (Jan 7, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Uh, Shiki Fujin.
> 
> 
> 
> That was black Zetsu/Kaguya's will. Kabuto called Edo Tensei the strongest ninjutsu.



Nope kabuto did call Amaterasu the strongest ninjutsu as well
Read the manga his fight against the uchiha bros in the cave


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## Dr. White (Jan 7, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> scans of said TBB rasengan on obito face. entertain me.
> 
> oro has the summon. who say it used kabuto chakra? when the seal was on oro arms?


Oh I was wrong it actually was a regular rasengan but it was still BM Nardo.

Kabuto was the one who had to actually cast the ninjutsu cause Oro could not mold chakra. Oro's arms had to be used in conjunction with the seals either because Kabuto couldn't summon them all by himself and needed Oro's chakra too, or just because he didn't have a contract with the snakes and needed Oro's "signature" if you will.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Nope kabuto did call Amaterasu the strongest ninjutsu as well
> Read the manga his fight against the uchiha bros in the cave



Link? If you believe it, then does that mean Kabuto considered Amaterasu stronger than any ninjutsu in his own impressive (and Edos) arsenal?


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## Icegaze (Jan 8, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Link? If you believe it, then does that mean Kabuto considered Amaterasu stronger than any ninjutsu in his own impressive (and Edos) arsenal?



i am disappointed the likes of you dont know this. 

Nope looks like he had Kurama with him

an example of how the best attack technique 

just saying...

his knowledge pool based on that is flawed


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## Icegaze (Jan 8, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Oh I was wrong it actually was a regular rasengan but it was still BM Nardo.
> 
> Kabuto was the one who had to actually cast the ninjutsu cause Oro could not mold chakra. Oro's arms had to be used in conjunction with the seals either because Kabuto couldn't summon them all by himself and needed Oro's chakra too, or just because he didn't have a contract with the snakes and needed Oro's "signature" if you will.



and it being BM naruto makes a difference because? its all about the size of the rasengan 

that rasegan was still smaller than the ones minato can make

oro could not mould chakra yet could use kusanagi, which requires a snake be summoned from his mouth

hmm


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2017)

@Dr. White @Sadgoob 
If Minato had shown a sealing rasengan like what RSM naruto showed against Juudara would that change his standing in your opinion 

As that would make up for his lack of offense


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> and it being BM naruto makes a difference because? its all about the size of the rasengan
> 
> that rasegan was still smaller than the ones minato can make
> 
> ...


- Nah chakra quality has a ton to do with it. Naruto giving Hinata just a taste of Kyuubi chakra allowed her Air palm to reach Hiashi levels and blow back a Juubi tail hand. Size is only relevant for regular rasengans. For example Minato's is about the size of KN0 Naruto. But obviously we know BM Naruto would smash any regular rasengan in a clash vs any of his previous forms.

Orochimaru canonically could not mold jutsu, especially one as complex as summoning. Even poisoned jiraiya couldn't summon at first. Kusanagi was inside Oro and the snake could have been prepped. The activation for the jutsu could also be sealless which means Oro could use it (he had chakra just couldn't mold with his hands.).


Icegaze said:


> @Dr. White @Sadgoob
> If Minato had shown a sealing rasengan like what RSM naruto showed against Juudara would that change his standing in your opinion
> 
> As that would make up for his lack of offense


Yeah that would be pretty dope. I don't think that his offense is too lacking and FTG helps make up tremendously. I just think that people confuse having tools like FTG/summoning, and their actual in battle capability. Like FCD is not some one shot technique that frog summoners will pull out as an efficient tool at short range vs a single humanoid opponent. Yet it's constantly praised for being one of his go to moves in killing strong opponents.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> - Nah chakra quality has a ton to do with it. Naruto giving Hinata just a taste of Kyuubi chakra allowed her Air palm to reach Hiashi levels and blow back a Juubi tail hand. Size is only relevant for regular rasengans. For example Minato's is about the size of KN0 Naruto. But obviously we know BM Naruto would smash any regular rasengan in a clash vs any of his previous forms.
> 
> Orochimaru canonically could not mold jutsu, especially one as complex as summoning. Even poisoned jiraiya couldn't summon at first. Kusanagi was inside Oro and the snake could have been prepped. The activation for the jutsu could also be sealless which means Oro could use it (he had chakra just couldn't mold with his hands.).
> 
> Yeah that would be pretty dope. I don't think that his offense is too lacking and FTG helps make up tremendously. I just think that people confuse having tools like FTG/summoning, and their actual in battle capability. Like FCD is not some one shot technique that frog summoners will pull out as an efficient tool at short range vs a single humanoid opponent. Yet it's constantly praised for being one of his go to moves in killing strong opponents.



Actually those that can tank rasengan can more than likely tank FCD 
I mean AAA can casually tank 

So are you saying BSM naruto  rasengan > jiriaya cho odama rasengan


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## Dr. White (Jan 9, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Actually those that can tank rasengan can more than likely tank FCD
> I mean AAA can casually tank
> 
> So are you saying BSM naruto  rasengan > jiriaya cho odama rasengan


No because that is clearly an upper end Rasengan and SM enhanced so it has a natural buff to it similar to kyuubi chakra. I never argued that size didn't matter but chakrac quality does too.

So I'd say BM Rasengan > Odama rasengan's, and regular rasengans for base and even SM/other kyuubi modes.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> No because that is clearly an upper end Rasengan and SM enhanced so it has a natural buff to it similar to kyuubi chakra. I never argued that size didn't matter but chakrac quality does too.
> 
> So I'd say BM Rasengan > Odama rasengan's, and regular rasengans for base and even SM/other kyuubi modes.



Chakra quality was never mentioned for the technique power 
It's all about rotation and size here 

As we have yet to see a rasengan do more damage than a larger rasengan


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