# OPBD Formal Debate Series



## StrawHat4Life (Feb 1, 2014)

Welcome to the first annual OPBD Formal Debate Series. We'll be debating some of the most controversial and divisive topics in the battledome, sans the typical shitstorms and trolling that typically comes with such topics. The first topic up for debate will be...*Mihawk vs. Shanks: Who is Stronger?* 
*
How this will work: *


Two teams of three will debate the topic at hand. We will accept volunteers for either side on a first come first serve basis. Only serious contestants will be accepted. If you're here to cause mischief then you'll be shown the door right away.


Both teams will present a unified argument for their side, citing manga evidence and any other relevant details which bolster their argument. There will be a period for rebuttals and then a final summation. 


Judges will vote on which side delivered the most convincing argument. Anyone with at least a hundred posts can sign up to be a judge. Again, if you're here with the intent to cause mischief then you will be shown the door.

Use this thread to sign up as a debater or judge. Please note which team you wish to debate for. The topic has already been chosen so please don't whine about it. There will be many more topics in the future. *All off-topic posts will be deleted. Spamming and flaming will not be tolerated.* 

*Team Shanks*
BartholomewKuma
Sir Crocodile 
♦Young Master♦

*Team Mihawk*
2Broken 
Pimp of Pimps
halaros536

*Judges*
Atlantic Storm
Sakazuki
Marcelle.B
Khris 
Coruscation 

The winning team will earn five points towards redemption of a prize. Prizes can be earned once ten points have been accumulated.


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## RF (Feb 1, 2014)

Fucking awesome SH4L. Love the idea.

Anyway, as I believe they're dead equal, I guess I won't be joining any team, but I'd be happy to judge.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 1, 2014)

I wouldn't mind being a judge, but I'll give the place up if there's somebody else who wants it.


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## Soca (Feb 1, 2014)

I'll volunteer to be a judge.


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## Halcyon (Feb 1, 2014)

So you put it into action huh?

This is going to be interesting


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 1, 2014)

This is interesting, I could never come up with a clear victor between the two based on hype. I hope this convinces me that someone would come out victorious. Willing to volunteer as a judge.


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## Freechoice (Feb 1, 2014)

Someone impartial and fucking awesome such as myself should be a judge.

I'll fuck for it.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 1, 2014)

Corus should be obliged to be part of this. Just saying.

EDIT: Also, SH4L can a judge dispute or argue something that deems very outrageous?


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## Venom (Feb 1, 2014)

Canute, Corus, Unclear Justice, Akito and Doflamingo should be debaters.
But then again who knows if they are interested.


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## Freechoice (Feb 1, 2014)

Corus shouldn't. I need to stay awake.


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## Venom (Feb 1, 2014)

^ 
And I forgot about SpiRo. He will no doubt debate for Mihawk


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## Kuma (Feb 1, 2014)

i would like to debate on behalf of shanks


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## Impact (Feb 1, 2014)

Finally getting things rolling huh? Good

Sign me up for Team Shanks


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## Orca (Feb 1, 2014)

Lel. I like Shanks and Mihawk equally, but as far as this vs debate goes, I'm definitely rooting for Shanks. I'll only sign up as a debater if there is no third debater for shanks. Kuma and Sir croc being the first two.


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## Rob (Feb 1, 2014)

What if the judges end up being biased?


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## Impact (Feb 1, 2014)

We need Mihawk debaters too.

I'll probably visit a few profiles to see if others are willing to debate for Mihawk later if we don't have enough entries.


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 1, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> What if the judges end up being biased?



I think it would be best if the debaters acknowledge the judges officially before a debate starts, so there is no complaining afterwards.


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## RF (Feb 1, 2014)

Is anyone even going to debate for Mihawk?


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## Bansai (Feb 1, 2014)

I don't think we should officially list who debates for who. When good posters decide to side with either one of the characters, others will join the same side only because they know that a another good debater is there too.


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## Rob (Feb 1, 2014)

@Sakazuki

The idiots will :ignoramus


*Spoiler*: __ 



I kid.


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 1, 2014)

RobLucciRapes said:


> What if the judges end up being biased?



In this case, we're judging who delivered the most convincing argument, not necessarily who we think would win afterwards. Bias shouldn't be a problem, unless it's towards some of the users debating.


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## 2Broken (Feb 1, 2014)

This sounds like fun.

I'm willing to debate for Mihawk.


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## Bitty (Feb 1, 2014)

Sakazuki said:


> Is anyone even going to debate for Mihawk?


we should invite PoPs :ignoramus 


2Broken said:


> This sounds like fun.
> 
> I'm willing to debate for Mihawk.



may God have mercy on your soul


*Spoiler*: __ 



nah good luck bro.


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## 2Broken (Feb 1, 2014)

Bitty said:


> we should invite PoPs :ignoramus
> 
> 
> may God have mercy on your soul
> ...



Don't worry bro my boi Mihawk got this.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Feb 1, 2014)

I'll be a neutral observer.



Sakazuki said:


> Is anyone even going to debate for Mihawk?



Someone needs to do a recruitment drive on TMF.



I nominate you RG.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 1, 2014)

Updated the OP. So far we have...
*
Team Shanks*
BartholomewKuma
Sir Crocodile 

*Team Mihawk*
2Broken 
Pimp of Pimps

*Judges*
Atlantic Storm
Marcelle.B
Khris 



Atlantic Storm said:


> I wouldn't mind being a judge, but I'll give the place up if there's somebody else who wants it.



Good to have you.   



Khris said:


> EDIT: Also, SH4L can a judge dispute or argue something that deems very outrageous?



There will be a round where judges can ask questions of the debaters but nothing beyond that. The debate is strictly between both teams.  



Atlantic Storm said:


> In this case, we're judging who delivered the most convincing argument, not necessarily who we think would win afterwards. Bias shouldn't be a problem, unless it's towards some of the users debating.



Pretty much this. Judges are voting for the side which presented the most convincing argument based on the available evidence.


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## Coruscation (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm personally indecisive with a slight lean toward "equal" on this matter. So I can't debate for either side, but I wouldn't mind being a judge.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 1, 2014)

*Volunteering to debate for Mihawk. *


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 1, 2014)

Added.


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## Rob (Feb 1, 2014)

Pimp of Poops


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 1, 2014)

Oh look what the cat dragged in?  

PoP up in this debate? I can't wait, glad I signed up.


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## Impact (Feb 1, 2014)

Oh this should be fun now


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## Quuon (Feb 1, 2014)

This is going to be so fun to observe.


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## halaros536 (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm back after a loong time, bitches.

I'm willing to debate for Mihawk.


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## Canute87 (Feb 1, 2014)

Sorry don't think i can take this debate up.  

I remember going all out in that Mihawk thread i made,  but everything i said and thought eventually got countered so I'd just be repeating that loss as there's nothing really new that has come about for either characters.



What said:


> Corus shouldn't. I need to stay awake.



Corus isn't boring.............. but he is in a class by himself.


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## Canute87 (Feb 1, 2014)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Volunteering to debate for Mihawk. *



Fucking hell...........You're here?


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## trance (Feb 1, 2014)

Great idea. Controversial matchup. 

Maybe next time. 

I wish everyone the best of luck, though.


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## Canute87 (Feb 1, 2014)

If people want some ammo with Shanks debate. 
The only thing you can really try to evaluate is levels of experience and the potential battles.

Manga has proven that Shanks and Mihawk were in fact equals at one point but that might have changed based on the journey, What Mihawk has endured compared to Shanks.


Also if this is a serious debate for shanks's supporters  please do not bring up Mihawk's reluctance to fight shanks as this can simply be attributed to his honourable nature as a swordsman as well as his amazing bond and respect he has for shanks and not actually being afraid of fighting and losing against him.

The minute that is brought into the debate the entire thread will just be fed to the monkeys as it will just end up being another fan wank thread.

That's all i can say to this really.


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## BlueDemon (Feb 1, 2014)

Damn, this will surely be interesting. Would have been fun seeing a Corus vs. PoP debate, though (yeah, I'm lurkin on TMF).


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## Magician (Feb 1, 2014)

Awesomesauce.

I'm going team Mihawk.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 1, 2014)

Don't think either is stronger than the other and any battle they have could go either way. So I can't take a side. But I would love to see this debate go about.

And I hope the "WSS" card isn't played too much by the Mihawk side, that'll just be meh.


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## Rob (Feb 1, 2014)

Halaros... Baby... 

Make love to me in my VM's.


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## Venom (Feb 1, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> If people want some ammo with Shanks debate.
> The only thing you can really try to evaluate is levels of experience and the potential battles.
> 
> Manga has proven that Shanks and Mihawk were in fact equals at one point but that might have changed based on the journey, What Mihawk has endured compared to Shanks.
> ...



Canute why don't you join in as a judge?


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## Freechoice (Feb 1, 2014)

Hilarious how SH4L picks certain people over more suitable people, in my opinion anyway.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 1, 2014)

This is the lineup so far... 

*Team Shanks*
BartholomewKuma
Sir Crocodile 
♦Young Master♦

*Team Mihawk*
2Broken 
Pimp of Pimps
halaros536

*Judges*
Atlantic Storm
Sakazuki
Marcelle.B
Khris 
Coruscation 

I notice that Luffee volunteered for Team Shanks if they don't get a third member. I'll gladly add a fourth member for each team if there's a demand for it. If I'm missing anyone please let me know.



What said:


> Hilarious how SH4L picks certain people over more suitable people, in my opinion anyway.



It's also hilarious how you rush to premature judgements. If there was an omission then it was made in error.


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## Magician (Feb 1, 2014)

I'll go with team shanks then, since Mihawk already has three.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 1, 2014)

Added.


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## Canute87 (Feb 1, 2014)

Venom said:


> Canute why don't you join in as a judge?



Because I myself can't really be a voice of reason for both sides because of my personal opinions/doubts to Mihawk's true strength.  I would more lean to shanks being stronger but that's only because mihawk hasn't really done much to really convince me but that's something that can be dealt with in time. (Shanks has less to prove because of his position as one of the strongest pirates the new world and would have fought some significant and powerful people for that position)

Besides you have Coru, can't find much people like him who can see things so objectively.  Just ask him to speak regular people english and y'all should be fine.

I will be tuning in to this debate. Guys like pimps of pimps joing in after all this time is something I really want to see.


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## Bitty (Feb 1, 2014)

3 contestants 5 judges sounds perfect.


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## Shinthia (Feb 1, 2014)

*BartholomewKuma
Sir Crocodile 
♦Young Master♦*

best of luck guys


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## Bitty (Feb 1, 2014)

the number of judges should usually be an odd number considering there may be a tie vote. unless everyone doesn't mind a tie if that happens.


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## Mihawk (Feb 1, 2014)

Oh yeah shit your right
maybe I shouldn't be a judge

bahhh, it's hard to decide ugh since I think they're equal anyways

but if judge isn't an option, I guess you can sign me up for debating on behalf of Mihawk

though I'll be the guy who counters arguments, instead of constantly making them


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## Impact (Feb 1, 2014)

I agree with bitty, and with less judges it'll probably more faster for judges to not make drawn out decisions because its a tie.

it has to been a winner and a loser. The judge numbers shouldn't be changed.


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## Mihawk (Feb 1, 2014)

Two teams of 3? 

Then I guess I'm too late anyways


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## Impact (Feb 1, 2014)

This is only the first one anyways luke, the more interesting debates would come after this one's over


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## Mihawk (Feb 1, 2014)

maaaaaan now I gotta stand by and watch while letting bs claims  slide  wish I arrived earlier

nonetheless this debating series was a great idea by SH4L
sorta looking forward to see what's next


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## Bitty (Feb 1, 2014)

which team would you choose Luke?


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## Mihawk (Feb 1, 2014)

Bitty: Mihawk this time.



> it's hard to decide ugh since I think they're equal anyways
> 
> but if judge isn't an option, I guess you can sign me up for debating on behalf of Mihawk
> 
> though I'll be the guy who counters arguments, instead of constantly making them



So SH4L, I'm still in for Mihawk, and you can sign me up if you want


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## Bitty (Feb 1, 2014)

ooooooooooo gotcha.

I think team Shanks has a slight advantage cause he's shown more, but Pops is defiantly the strongest debater imo. So this is going to be fun. 

if you woulda joined......team shanks wouldn't stand a chance 
i kid...really wanna see what this 2broken guy can do....barely see him, but when I do he's not bad at all.


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## Great Potato (Feb 1, 2014)

This is phenomenal.


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## jNdee~ (Feb 1, 2014)

In for Shanks.


EDIT: Err. I was late. GL to team Shanks


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## Shinthia (Feb 2, 2014)

if SH4L wants to add more than 3 debater (which means Luke will get a chance to debate ) i want to debate for Shanks.


Edit: Just to make myself clear , i think Shanks and Mihawk r in same level but not equal (Akainu vs Aokiji type difference).


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 2, 2014)

The  is up.


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## Rob (Feb 2, 2014)

I take it anyone who posts in that thread will just get insta-banned


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## Shinthia (Feb 2, 2014)

this is exciting


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## Impact (Feb 2, 2014)

My body is ready.


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## Slenderman (Feb 2, 2014)

Amazing idea SH4L. I expect great things from everybody.


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## Big Mom (Feb 2, 2014)

I am actually kind of offended.

A few months back I created the Formal Debate idea, so this isn't the first


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## Kuma (Feb 2, 2014)

I'm tingling with excitement.


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## Bitty (Feb 2, 2014)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I am actually kind of offended.
> 
> A few months back I created the Formal Debate idea, so this isn't the first


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## Kanki (Feb 2, 2014)

Team Shanks will win this, mainly because I don't know who two of the Mihawkers are.


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## Impact (Feb 2, 2014)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I am actually kind of offended.
> 
> A few months back I created the Formal Debate idea, so this isn't the first




Kanye has spoken 




Kanki Is God said:


> Team Shanks will win this, mainly because I don't know who two of the Mihawkers are.



Don't be to sure about that.


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## trance (Feb 2, 2014)

This will be fun to watch these two teams kill each other, all for our amusement.


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## Mike S (Feb 2, 2014)

Now this is interesting.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 2, 2014)

I don't think judges decide who's stronger like Atlantic Storm has already said. We'll merely decide who was more convincing. Thus the winner should be "*Team *Shanks/Mihawk" instead of "Shanks/Mihawk".

And I see the main thread is up, good luck to everyone taking part; from the debaters, judges, and to SH4L himself.

And I feel "annual" is too long for the next thread.


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## jNdee~ (Feb 2, 2014)

So tempted to post on the thread 

What happens if nobody acts in the next 72 hours?


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 2, 2014)

We neg all the contestants


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## The Bloody Nine (Feb 2, 2014)

Khris said:


> I don't think judges decide who's stronger like Atlantic Storm has already said. We'll merely decide who was more convincing. Thus the winner should be "*Team *Shanks/Mihawk" instead of "Shanks/Mihawk".



This. At this point who is really gonna change their mind ? Hope it can be good.


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## Vengeance (Feb 2, 2014)

Damn, completely missed this thread.
Good luck to both sides.


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## tanman (Feb 2, 2014)

*Is it okay for non-participating parties to privately provide evidence to individual members of a particular side?*


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 2, 2014)

tanman said:


> *Is it okay for non-participating parties to privately provide evidence to individual members of a particular side?*



It is not.


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## tanman (Feb 2, 2014)

I see.  So this is more of a test in debate skill and evidence collection rather than an attempt at a decisive conclusion on the fight itself. Interesting.


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## Orca (Feb 2, 2014)

tanman said:


> I see.  So this is more of a test in debate skill and evidence collection rather than an attempt at a *decisive conclusion on the fight itself.* Interesting.



Only oda can do that.


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## Shanks (Feb 2, 2014)

Cool idea. If we're favoring controversial topics, can we do Akainu vs. Marco + Vista & 11 other commanders next?


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## Mihawk (Feb 5, 2014)

lol these guys resorted to say that Mihawk's title is the World's Greatest and not World's Strongest.

I knew that would surface as a debating tactic at some point.


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## Shinthia (Feb 6, 2014)

I knew WSS debate is the only debate Mihawk supporter got


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## Mihawk (Feb 6, 2014)

Implying the Shanks camp have come up with any new arguments we haven't already heard of before either, with the Yonko>Shichi stuff

Let's face it, we've heard all the arguments from both sides before. The content is the same. The only difference is the presentation, which is what is going to be judged later on.


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## Dellinger (Feb 6, 2014)

Fuck Mihawk.

Shanks for life.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 6, 2014)

Meh Same old stuff different package as my Clone pointed out. 

Mihawk is stronger ftw. Also if i recall correctly Mihawks Title in Japanese letters is pretty much the same as White-beard just the part about swordsmen is added and not man, and whitebeard is not the Worlds Greatest Man but the strongest. So Mihawk is the WSS, WGS is the mistranslation.


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## Shinthia (Feb 6, 2014)

i just dont understand why people bring WSS to prove Mihawk > Shnaks when oda made it clear that Mihawk could not beat Shanks when they fought.


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 6, 2014)

I hoped we would see one or two new arguments. Sadly that didn?t happen until now. What we?ve seen so far is what I expected to happen. I can?t agree on how some arguments were used, but I won?t go into detail. Those six should debate by themselves so I won?t post something here that can be taken as advice and you guys also shouldn?t do that.


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## Freechoice (Feb 6, 2014)

Shanks side got this.

I don't see anything convincing from the pro Mihawk side, not to mention the fact it looks sloppy and rushed. The arguments are just rehashed versions of ones I have seen countless times in the past.

I also find it confusing as to why SH4L chose Halaros and POPs. Two people who literally hadn't posted here in 6+ months, likely longer.

Halaros's last post was in december 2012, and Pops was in March last year, barring a post in december which just said "you're all ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)" 

There are way better candidates here that are regular posters.


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## Gilgamesh (Feb 6, 2014)

Shanks and Mihawk fucking suck

Kaido and Blackbeard 4 lyfe


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## halaros536 (Feb 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> i just dont understand why people bring WSS to prove *Mihawk > Shnaks when oda made it clear that Mihawk could not beat Shanks when they fought.*



Oda never did that.



Unclear Justice said:


> I hoped we would see one or two new arguments. Sadly that didn?t happen until now. What we?ve seen so far is what I expected to happen. I can?t agree on how some arguments were used, but I won?t go into detail. Those six should debate by themselves so I won?t post something here that can be taken as advice and you guys also shouldn?t do that.



The Shanks vs Mihawk debate has been going on since forever. Both sides are using arguments that have been used many times before. Or did you think that we'd come up with new unknown till now evidence?




What said:


> Shanks side got this.
> 
> I don't see anything convincing from the pro Mihawk side, not to mention the fact it looks sloppy and rushed.* The arguments are just rehashed versions of ones I have seen countless times in the past.*
> 
> ...



Same goes about the pro Shanks arguments, nothing new. Most of their arguments are not even usable in this debate, but I won't transfer this debate here, we're gonna debunk all that in the debate thread.

SHFL chose us, because we were the ones to volunteer first, that is all. Only 3broken volunteered before us and he was accepted of course.


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## Vengeance (Feb 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> i just dont understand why people bring WSS to prove Mihawk > Shnaks when oda made it clear that Mihawk could not beat Shanks when they fought.



Where has he done this?^^


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 6, 2014)

halaros536 said:


> The Shanks vs Mihawk debate has been going on since forever. Both sides are using arguments that have been used many times before. Or did you think that we'd come up with new unknown till now evidence?



Hopes and expectations are two different things.
I didn?t think it will happen but I hoped so.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 6, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Shanks and Mihawk fucking suck
> 
> Kaido and Blackbeard 4 lyfe


Shanks and Mihawk may very well die before Luffy and Zoro fulfill their dreams, the latter in particular I can see happening the more I think about it, it would be so epic for Zoro to try and avenge the very person he had been trying to surpass. Blackbeard will naturally be one of Luffy's best EoS opponents, and while I don't think Kaido will rob Akainu of his "best villain in OP" title, I still expect great things from him.


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## Shinthia (Feb 6, 2014)

halaros536 said:


> Oda never did that.



Mihawk himself said _he_ does not want to _settle things_ (Mihawk has something to settle not Shanks) with a one armed man. A winner never said such thing to a loser in fact the opposite is more likely.




> Where has he done this?^^


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## Blue Cheese (Feb 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Mihawk himself said _he_ does not want to _settle things_ (Mihawk has something to settle not Shanks) with a one armed man. A winner never said such thing to a loser in fact the opposite is more likely.



im on shanks side, but from neutral point thats not too strong. wasnt it whiskey peak luffy say sumthing similar to zoro and we all know luffys stronger.

but the biggest reason is obvious, ur point is right but only applies to 2 arm shanks from past.   nothing of that applies to 1 arm current shanks.

a person on mihawk side can just say, they couldnt settle things when shanks had 2 arms therefore shanks with one arm is likely weaker than mihawk. ( i dont believe that)..but thats how it is from neutral view.



What said:


> Shanks side got this.
> 
> I don't see anything convincing from the pro Mihawk side, not to mention the fact it looks sloppy and rushed. The arguments are just rehashed versions of ones I have seen countless times in the past.
> 
> ...



i dunno about posters but agree with u on slopped rushed part.   team mihawk need to step up a gear, i seen some pro  mihawk better posts in other random threads than one u try in this formal debate. but only first stage so its not too late.

ok u guys doing better now, i didnt read updates before i post.


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## Mihawk (Feb 6, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Mihawk himself said _he_ does not want to _settle things_ (Mihawk has something to settle not Shanks) with a one armed man. A winner never said such thing to a loser in fact the opposite is more likely.



OR It can mean that they had numerous duels where a conclusion was never reached, and there was never a result, so "settling things" once and for all can be applied more solidly in that context.

In fact, I find that to be more likely than the other two ideas. 

That Mihawk doesn't want to settle things once and for all anymore now that Shanks had lost an arm.


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## Shinthia (Feb 6, 2014)

Blue Cheese said:


> im on shanks side, but from neutral point thats not too strong. wasnt it whiskey peak luffy say sumthing similar to zoro and we all know luffys stronger.
> 
> but the biggest reason is obvious, ur point is right but only applies to 2 arm shanks from past.   nothing of that applies to 1 arm current shanks.
> 
> a person on mihawk side can just say, they couldnt settle things when shanks had 2 arms therefore shanks with one arm is likely weaker than mihawk. ( i dont believe that)..but thats how it is from neutral view.


u dont have to mention if u r Shanks side or not. ur posts will let us know if u r neutral or on Shanks side or Mihawk's side.

cant remember in which situation it was used in whiskey peak , so cant comment on that. U should provide a link for that.

if anyone wanna do math like 2 armed Shanks= Mihawk so 1 armed Shanks is weaker. So, we find Mihawk > 1 armed Shnaks.
then they should get another result using the same rules, a DFless BB was able do something to 2 armed Shnaks that even Mihawk could not do(Scar Shanks for life when Shanks was fully on his guard) and get Dfless BB > Mihawk > 1 armed Shanks.



Doflαmingo said:


> OR It can mean that they had numerous duels where a conclusion was never reached, and there was never a result, so "settling things" once and for all can be applied more solidly in that context.
> 
> In fact, I find that to be more likely than the other two ideas.
> 
> That Mihawk doesn't want to settle things once and for all anymore now that Shanks had lost an arm.



yes i know.But, i was just trying to say ..... A winner never have things to settle with a loser. Only loser has thing to settle with the winner or there were never a winner thus makes the fight unsettled. Only this 2 possibility imo.


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## StrawHat4Life (Feb 6, 2014)

What said:


> I also find it confusing as to why SH4L chose Halaros and POPs. Two people who literally hadn't posted here in 6+ months, likely longer.



 **


			
				StrawHat4Life said:
			
		

> Two teams of three will debate the topic at hand. *We will accept volunteers for either side on a first come first serve basis. *


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## Freechoice (Feb 6, 2014)

Oops, I missed that. Fair enough.


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## Sayonara (Feb 6, 2014)

Doflαmingo said:


> OR It can mean that they had numerous duels where a conclusion was never reached, and there was never a result, so "settling things" once and for all can be applied more solidly in that context.
> 
> In fact, I find that to be more likely than the other two ideas.
> 
> That Mihawk doesn't want to settle things once and for all anymore now that Shanks had lost an arm.



Thats the way I see it,  settle as in settling unfinished business ie a fight that never had a winner in the first place.  There duels were legendary as described by even whitebeard , it hardly makes sense to be described as such if was it just a case of mihawk losing every time single time, the fights could still be close but you wouldnt expect them to be called legendary in that fashion.


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## Sayonara (Feb 7, 2014)

So forgot my previous post,  after looking at debate thread  just now i looked at my copy of translation script written by Stephen pre-Viz. I am assuming this isn't interfering since a scan of the page has already been posted and discussed by both sides and this is no more official than any other translators work and doesn't necessarily mean its the correct interpretation from original .



			
				Stephen said:
			
		

> - Page 120 -
> 
> [An island.]
> 
> ...


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm just gonna casually ask this here, if Shanks did in fact turn out to be a swordsmen and it turned out that he's stronger than Mihawk, would people in favor of Mihawk think that the WSS title is a retcon?


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 8, 2014)

^From an in-universe perspective this can be explained depending on how Mihawk obtained the title, so I wouldn?t call it a retcon. Though I would lose a lot of respect for Oda if it turns out that the moment Mihawk was introduced he wasn?t the strongest swordsman.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

What do you guys think that the next debate series should be? I'm rearing to go. I'm tired of watching on the sidelines, I want debate


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 8, 2014)

Khris said:


> I'm just gonna casually ask this here, if Shanks did in fact turn out to be a swordsmen and it turned out that he's stronger than Mihawk, would people in favor of Mihawk think that the WSS title is a retcon?



Depends on how Oda explains it. 

Although either way it would be cheap. No different then Oda saying later that White-beard was not the WSM.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 8, 2014)

Unclear Justice said:


> ^From an in-universe perspective this can be explained depending on how Mihawk obtained the title, so I wouldn?t call it a retcon. Though I would lose a lot of respect for Oda if it turns out that the moment Mihawk was introduced he wasn?t the strongest swordsman.





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Depends on how Oda explains it.
> 
> Although either way it would be cheap. No different then Oda saying later that White-beard was not the WSM.




Thanx for the replies.



Slenderman said:


> What do you guys think that the next debate series should be? I'm rearing to go. I'm tired of watching on the sidelines, I want debate



Team Monster Trio are close in strength vs. Team Monster Trio are clearly apart 

I'd be with the first team. 

or better yet. Kuma vs. Hancock.

I'm neutral with this one though.


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## 2Broken (Feb 8, 2014)

Khris said:


> Team Monster Trio are close in strength vs. Team Monster Trio are clearly apart



I like this one, we should do this one.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Feb 8, 2014)

Khris said:


> I'm just gonna casually ask this here, if Shanks did in fact turn out to be a swordsmen and it turned out that he's stronger than Mihawk, would people in favor of Mihawk think that the WSS title is a retcon?


Mihawk seemed to stress that skill was more important to his title than strength (though strength is clearly a factor). While Shanks in my mind is stronger than Mihawk, thanks to his Haki, if it came to a sword fight based purely on skill and nothing else, I believe that Mihawk would emerge the victor.


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## Bitty (Feb 8, 2014)

Is Marco admiral level?
the Monster Trio strength gap.
has Luffy surpassed or equalized Ace?

are the best ones I can think of.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

The thing with Mihawk's title is that we haven't seen him do anything amazing. WB proved that he's the WSM while we don't know who MIhawk beat to get the title.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

Khris said:


> Thanx for the replies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Me too. Though i'm sure Optiers or ZFG would go for there are far apart to wank Zoro


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## Bitty (Feb 8, 2014)

i'm with the monster trio being clearly apart. As in each fight between any of them, should already be decided.
They can be relatively close & in the same general ballpark of course & still have noticeable gaps in between them.

pretty sure everyone agrees Akainu stronger is than Kizaru, he's defiantly been placed on a noticeably higher pedestal.  But, they're still close & can push each other.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

It really boils down to how close. Like high diff close or extreme diff close. Maybe they could make high to extreme one team and another for below that?


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## Bitty (Feb 8, 2014)

they're all close enough to provide high-diff fights...which is good enough for me.

now if "clearly apart" is someone suggesting Luffy has a chance of mid-diffing Sanji....then we have a problem.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

Exactly. Wording and meanings would make this debate hard without clarifications.


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## Dr. White (Feb 8, 2014)

I would love to debate the monster trio gap next and would like to volunteer to be on the side of  the gap being small to negligible


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## Blue Cheese (Feb 8, 2014)

I want to talk about M3 gaps, i kno from last time made thread most people are luffy>zoro>sanji but sometimes i feel sanji gets left out to much when he has been shown close to zoro more than once but lots people ignore or forget that because sanji not on main stage all time


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 8, 2014)

I was scared that the Mihawk camp would resort to the WSS tactic. As neutral as I am on this debate, I was hoping to see some fresh perspectives besides "Yonko" this and "WSS" that. No one even knows how the WSS title is even established, or any title for that matter. A title could be based on rumor or a downright competition. But we have no idea for WSS. It could simply be based on rumors, ex. Shanks and Mihawk were the most popular sword users of the era and their battles were publicized on news headlines world wide. Shanks loses his arm -> Mihawk is deemed by the masses to be the WSS. When in reality there could be someone in Wano who no one knows about but has the best sword proficiency in the world. Unless backed by feats, a title means nothing to the reader. Ex. Whitebeard was called WSM, this backed up by his legendary performance at Marineford.

Ah well, I look forward to seeing the conclusion of this debate.


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## Orca (Feb 8, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:
			
		

> It could simply be based on rumors,



In real life that could be true but in one piece it isn't. When the author says that Mihawk is WSS, then that means he is the strongest. We're not suppose to assume that there is someone living in a deep forest isolated by the rest of the world who can be a stronger Swordsman than Mihawk. Literature doesn't work that way.


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## warismydestiny (Feb 8, 2014)

wss argument has been debunked as being childish and stupid many times i dont why people keep using it


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## MrWano (Feb 8, 2014)

Yeah, that intro box pretty much cements Mihawk's position as the current WSS. It's Oda's way of making an unofficial rank as official as possible. In-universe, it can obviously be questioned, but the box is for us, the readers. Why would we get this specific piece of information if there were some swordsman out there who is secretly stronger than Mihawk? It'd be insulting towards both Mihawk (and Zoro) as characters, and a waste years of hype, anticipation and portrayal.


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## Bitty (Feb 8, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> I was scared that the Mihawk camp would resort to the WSS tactic. As neutral as I am on this debate, I was hoping to see some fresh perspectives besides "Yonko" this and "WSS" that. No one even knows how the WSS title is even established, or any title for that matter. A title could be based on rumor or a downright competition. But we have no idea for WSS. It could simply be based on rumors, ex. Shanks and Mihawk were the most popular sword users of the era and their battles were publicized on news headlines world wide. Shanks loses his arm -> Mihawk is deemed by the masses to be the WSS. When in reality there could be someone in Wano who no one knows about but has the best sword proficiency in the world. Unless backed by feats, a title means nothing to the reader. Ex. Whitebeard was called WSM, this backed up by his legendary performance at Marineford.
> 
> Ah well, I look forward to seeing the conclusion of this debate.



there's very little room for "fresh perspectives" when the characters have shown no more significant feats, hype, or portrayal since this great shit storm has been going on. There's very little room to work with here so they're going to use what they can, even if it is the same old arguments.

Mihawk is the WSS. A title with or without feats, means a lot to the readers when it has been hyped since the beginning of the series & there's nothing to suggest against it. The guy who's basically the second main character,  revolves his entire life & dreams around this guy & his title. He's willing to die for it. The portrayal is there. The entire world views Mihawk as WSS & believes he's earned it. & we shouldn't just because he lacks feats? No one has dared spoken against his title yet it's been thrown in our face over & over again that he's the WSS.

the same thing can be said for Kaidou & his title & WB backed up his title, but who's to say Dragon couldn't have done the same thing? Oda wouldn't dare lead his readers on in such a way. He wouldn't throw away years of hype & portrayal for some new character or "rumors". It's more than feats & battle dome perspectives.......he's telling a story. That would be a big middle finger to Mihawk, Zoro, & the readers.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 8, 2014)

> In real life that could be true but in one piece it isn't. When the author says that Mihawk is WSS, then that means he is the strongest. We're not suppose to assume that there is someone living in a deep forest isolated by the rest of the world who can be a stronger Swordsman than Mihawk. Literature doesn't work that way.



I'm not saying there necessarily needs to be a person in the middle of nowhere that's stronger. But take for example Zoro at ten chapters before he fights Mihawk (if he ends up fighting Mihawk). Are you telling me *because* Mihawk has the title he is stronger than Zoro? When ten chapters later Zoro would go on to defeat him? The point is that the title only goes so far as to determining strength. No one questions Mihawk is one of the strongest characters in the manga and is big feat to overcome for Zoro, but when it comes down to it feats are needed to prove that Mihawk can win aginst the top of the world. Mihawk even said it himself that the goal of "Pirate King" is more of a long-shot than attaining WSS. 

And again this is another thing to consider. WSS means the strongest swordsman alive according to you guys, but if someone is a swordsman gunning for the Pirate King and not for WSS that person is not accounted for BECAUSE he never had the goal of facing Mihawk but instead has the goal of becoming Pirate King. MIhawk himself stated that Pirate King is a bigger goal than Swordsman (I may be a little off in the wording but you get the jist). Are you telling me if a a guy who uses a sword becomes Pirate King, and never had the goal of becoming WSS, would be argued as being weaker than Mihawk? This brings us to Shanks. When was it declared that his goal was to be WSS? The fact that he is an emperor actually proves the contrary. And with this logic, if Shanks is not a part of the audience that wishes to be WSS, the title Mihawk holds means nothing to him.




> there's very little room for "fresh perspectives" when the characters have shown no more significant feats, hype, or portrayal since this great shit storm has been going on. There's very little room to work with here so they're going to use what they can, even if it is the same old arguments.



That's the thing, I'm not talking about debating new panels and shit. I'm talking about new stances on debating the topic itself. Instead of question Shanks and MIhawk's feats question the nature of their motivations. For example, Shanks may have wanted to be the WSS in the past when he had several duels with Mihawk, but after losing his arm he kept his eyes on only one prize: the Pirate King. Even though now Mihawk is deemed "WSS" because Shanks doesn't fight him anymore, it doesn't mean one bit Shanks is magically weaker, he simply has different ambitions now.


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## Orca (Feb 8, 2014)

> But take for example Zoro at ten chapters before he fights Mihawk (if he ends up fighting Mihawk). Are you telling me because Mihawk has the title he is stronger than Zoro? When ten chapters later Zoro would go on to defeat him?



When zoro beats Mihawk, Oda(the author) would specifically show us that fight so we as readers can witness the passing of title from one character to another. Zoro will only be stronger than mihawk when he proves himself to be and the author will give us this proof in the form of a on panel fight. Until then Mihawk is stronger cuz oda said so.

You can't just assume that someone can be a better swordsman than Mihawk when the author who is creator of his world is telling us that mihawk is the strongest. That is basic storytelling. 

Otherwise I could say "Maybe someone reached Raftel before roger so maybe there are two pirate kings." Maybe akainu is Luffy's actual father. Maybe whitebeard ...... I hope you get what logic I'm using here.



> WSS means the strongest swordsman alive according to you guys, but if someone is a swordsman gunning for the Pirate King and not for WSS that person is not accounted for BECAUSE he never had the goal of facing Mihawk but instead has the goal of becoming Pirate King. MIhawk himself stated that Pirate King is a bigger goal than Swordsman



Ok let's assume that vista starts his own crew and starts gunning for PK title. Does that mean he becomes stronger than Mihawk? No. Just because a swordsman is gunning for PK title doesn't automatically make them stronger than mihawk.

Two things:

1. If there are swordsman gunning for PK title, they haven't reached that level yet where they could be stronger than mihawk.

2. None of the pirates in one piece that are stronger than Mihawk are swordsmen.

So considering the above two points, Mihawk can still be WSS even though becoming a PK is harder.



> Are you telling me if a a guy who uses a sword becomes Pirate King, and never had the goal of becoming WSS, would be argued as being weaker than Mihawk?



When that happens, Oda would tell us and we would know. But as of now there exists no swordsman who is a PK. Hence Mihawk is the strongest.



> This brings us to Shanks. When was it declared that his goal was to be WSS? The fact that he is an emperor actually proves the contrary. And with this logic, if Shanks is not a part of the audience that wishes to be WSS, the title Mihawk holds means nothing to him.



It's simple. Shanks is not a swordsman or swordmaster or kenshi or whatever you wanna call it. Not until he is referred to or acknowledged as a swordsman in the manga.


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## Bitty (Feb 8, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> That's the thing, I'm not talking about debating new panels and shit. I'm talking about new stances on debating the topic itself. Instead of question Shanks and MIhawk's feats question the nature of their motivations. For example, Shanks may have wanted to be the WSS in the past when he had several duels with Mihawk, but after losing his arm he kept his eyes on only one prize: the Pirate King. Even though now Mihawk is deemed "WSS" because Shanks doesn't fight him anymore, it doesn't mean one bit Shanks is magically weaker, he simply has different ambitions now.




yea, but things like their 'motivation' are waaaay more subjective & can easily be more twisted to the arguers point of view than actual feats & therefore a solid conclusion would even be harder to reach.  It's just like arguing a buncha "what ifs" or "maybe this coulda have happened, who knows?". Your illustration is a good one, it's a solid case but with no good evidence, at least compared to legit feats & portrayal like Mihawk casually slicing an a mountain sized ice-berg in half with a ranged attack or Shanks stopping a war with his mere presence.

We need legit hype, feats, & portrayal in the battle dome. Your illustration is more of a theory that would suit the OL better imo.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 8, 2014)

> It's simple. *Shanks is not a swordsman or swordmaster or kenshi or whatever you wanna call it*. Not until he is referred to or acknowledged as a swordsman in the manga.



Agreed.





> yea, but things like their 'motivation' are waaaay more subjective & can easily be more twisted to the arguers point of view than actual feats & therefore a solid conclusion would even be harder to reach. It's just like arguing a buncha "what ifs" or "maybe this coulda have happened, who knows?". Your illustration is a good one, it's a solid case but with no good evidence, at least compared to legit feats & portrayal like Mihawk casually slicing an a mountain sized ice-berg in half with a ranged attack or Shanks stopping a war with his mere presence.
> 
> We need legit hype, feats, & portrayal in the battle dome. Your illustration is more of a theory that would suit the OL better imo.



True that makes sense. And especially in this formal debate where they're looking for more formal evidence. I guess I was hyping things up a bit too much for wanting things to be all new and what not.


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## Gilgamesh (Feb 8, 2014)

Hal i saw you make a thread on MF just because you can't handle the fact that people say Shanks is stronger.

Why get so ass pained about the truth?


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## Dellinger (Feb 8, 2014)

Mihawktards can't get over the fact that Shanks' hype is leagues above Mihawk's.


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## Slenderman (Feb 8, 2014)

Bitty is right. We need more hype/feats/portrayal. Old arguments will have to be rehashed as that's all that we have. Perhaps we could have a topic that is not so hard to scrape for feats like can Luffy defeat DD? or is Sanji straying away from Luffy and Zoro?


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## Mike S (Feb 9, 2014)

Khris said:


> Team Monster Trio are close in strength vs. Team Monster Trio are clearly apart



Meh. Pretty much everyone knows the M3 are close in strength. It'll be hard finding members to debate for the second team. I think I know what you were going for with this idea, but the topic title you chose is way too broad.

It should be _Did Luffy pull ahead during the time-skip or did the gap remain the same?_ That's much more controversial. 

My vote for next topic would be the only thing more controversial than Mihawk vs Shanks; _Is the gap between Luffy & Zoro, smaller than the gap between Zoro & Sanji?_


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## Snowless (Feb 9, 2014)

Wasn't the WSS debunked via translation errors, anyway?
The Japanese word isn't as vague as swordsman, that's just the best translation.
It's a lot more specific, like calling someone a samurai, for example. But obviously someone else can be stronger and use a sword and not be a samurai.


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## Magentabeard (Feb 9, 2014)

Zoro is closer to Luffy than Sanji. This  could be debated.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 9, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> I'm not saying there necessarily needs to be a person in the middle of nowhere that's stronger. But take for example Zoro at ten chapters before he fights Mihawk (if he ends up fighting Mihawk). Are you telling me *because* Mihawk has the title he is stronger than Zoro? When ten chapters later Zoro would go on to defeat him? The point is that the title only goes so far as to determining strength. No one questions Mihawk is one of the strongest characters in the manga and is big feat to overcome for Zoro, but when it comes down to it feats are needed to prove that Mihawk can win aginst the top of the world. Mihawk even said it himself that the goal of "Pirate King" is more of a long-shot than attaining WSS.
> 
> And again this is another thing to consider. WSS means the strongest swordsman alive according to you guys, but if someone is a swordsman gunning for the Pirate King and not for WSS that person is not accounted for BECAUSE he never had the goal of facing Mihawk but instead has the goal of becoming Pirate King. MIhawk himself stated that Pirate King is a bigger goal than Swordsman (I may be a little off in the wording but you get the jist). Are you telling me if a a guy who uses a sword becomes Pirate King, and never had the goal of becoming WSS, would be argued as being weaker than Mihawk? This brings us to Shanks. When was it declared that his goal was to be WSS? The fact that he is an emperor actually proves the contrary. And with this logic, if Shanks is not a part of the audience that wishes to be WSS, the title Mihawk holds means nothing to him.
> 
> ...



PK is not WSM. 

The strength of people that hold certain titles all go up and down through the times. Say for example 60 years from now in one piece time i highly doubt the current WSM will be Prime Roger level. 

Basically what im saying is you can be the PK and be weaker then the WSS or the Fleet Admiral of the marines or who have you.* Technically anyway*. Just like Technically you can be a yonkou and still get your ass kicked 1v1 by Akainu. 

Since this is a manga by the time everything is said and done Luffy will be the WSM and the PK. So from a realistic perspective if some dude was really strong and climbing up the ranks to PK and he was a swordsmen, more then likely Mihawk would go and challenge him at some point. The dude is so bored he chased after Don kreig after all. Again this is a manga its not complicated Mihawk has not defeated every non-fodder swordsmen in the world, just like i doubt White-beard defeated any of his fellow yonkou or any of the pre-skip admirals, or Dragon, and yet WB was the strongest man we know of besides Roger back in the day. So technically Mihawk can be weaker then X person Oda may or may have not introduced to us yet.


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## Shanks (Feb 9, 2014)

To be honest Mihawk's team is seriously over their head with this WSS status. And why didn't team Shanks put more effort to state that Mihawk vs. Shanks was not conclusive, nor have Mihawk beat everyone that holds a sword in OP. This was made very clear at MF that vista have not fought him in the past.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 9, 2014)

^Pretty sure someone mentioned that Shanks Vs Mihawk was not conclusive in the past. Hence the mentioning of Shanks telling Mihawk if he came to settle the score was brought up a few times(not in those exact words). 

Roger nor WB has defeated every man in one piece. Nor Will Luffy defeat every man/pirate in his journey, nor will Zoro defeat every swordsmen before he becomes WSS.


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## Orca (Feb 9, 2014)

> Basically what im saying is you can be the PK and be weaker then the WSS or the Fleet Admiral of the marines or who have you. Technically anyway. Just like Technically you can be a yonkou and still get your ass kicked 1v1 by Akainu.



*Technically* there could be a swordsman stronger than mihawk who no one knows of but we don't look at things *technically*. 

PK being the WSM in op goes without saying. As said by mihawk himself "The path to becoming PK is more difficult than becoming a WSS."  Or something like that.


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## Shanks (Feb 9, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^Pretty sure someone mentioned that Shanks Vs Mihawk was not conclusive in the past. Hence the mentioning of Shanks telling Mihawk if he came to settle the score was brought up a few times(not in those exact words).
> 
> Roger nor WB has defeated every man in one piece. Nor Will Luffy defeat every man/pirate in his journey, nor will Zoro defeat every swordsmen before he becomes WSS.



They did mentioned, but I'm saying they should make it a stronger case. 


WB's case is different because there's enough on panel battles of him with top tiers and he's shown undoubtedly is the strongest man in the world based on those battles and not his title alone.

In Mihawk's case, he had the chance with Shanks, he had the chance with Vista and he's done nothing to show that he's superior. Then we also got sword users like Ray, Fujitora and Kizaru which Mihawk might or might not have fought them previously.


Another thing is that team Shanks could find a Japanese forum to look at some sort of polling to suggest whether the Japanese even considered Shanks a Kenshi. I bet it will be something in the vicinity of 99% - 1% in favor of Shanks not being a swordmen/swordsmaster etc. How hard it is to find a Japanese guy/girl to help you translate?


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## Thdyingbreed (Feb 10, 2014)

Well that thread pretty much boiled down too what I thought it would be in terms of what there arguments would revolve around if there's going too be another one it should be Zoro vs Sanji or Marco vs Kizaru.




Luffee said:


> It's simple. Shanks is not a swordsman or swordmaster or kenshi or whatever you wanna call it. Not until he is referred to or acknowledged as a swordsman in the manga.


Oh here we go with the whole Shank's isn't a swordsman argument well it's not even really a valid argument at this point honestly since it's really nothing more then denial in attempt to discredit Mihawk's title plain and simple.

The whole crux of this argument is that there is absolutely nothing that suggest's Shank's isn't a swordsman and or that his main fighting style isn't swordsmanship while everything else in the manga suggests that he is one.


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## warismydestiny (Feb 10, 2014)

wss arguement proven to be retarded by one of the judges own questions


> While true that the translations might be literally akin to "Greatest" rather than "Strongest". Does anyone really think that the title wasn't (or isn't) a direct association with strength or in general known terms here, level?
> 
> With the way Zoro and Mihawk's rivalry was setup, it was obvious for from the most casual of readers to One Piece "experts" that this was another case of "A character wanting to surpass B character, because B character is "this and that"."
> 
> ...


so if we hand whitebeard a sword does he cease to be the sekai saikyo no otoko because mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman obvious answer is no so clearly his title referes to his skill in swordplay not his overall power


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## Shanks (Feb 10, 2014)

Being over 24 hours - Judges still can't make up their decision, huh? Can't blame them - this is the most controversial match up in OP history and there never had being a true conclusion or agreement.


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## Sayonara (Feb 10, 2014)

Sabo said:


> Can't blame them - this is the most controversial match up in OP history and there never had being a true conclusion or agreement



and there never will be until we see more from both or better yet a flashback.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 10, 2014)

warismydestiny said:


> wss arguement proven to be retarded by one of the judges own questions
> so if we hand whitebeard a sword does he cease to be the sekai saikyo no otoko because mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman obvious answer is no so clearly his title referes to his skill in swordplay not his overall power



*Not sure why you guys keep bringing up this artificial distinction between skill and martial power. They are the same thing. If you look at Shaolin texts, for example, they will often mention the skill of being able to lift 500 pounds or the skill of punching really hard. Strength is often seen as a type of skill in Asian culture, at least when it comes to martial arts. The point is Mihawk can beat anyone alive in a fight where swords are being used as the main weapons. 

Besides, if you wanna make the argument that Mihawk is the most skilled swordsman then you'd also have to say Whitebeard is the most skilled man, as opposed to the strongest. Their titles are the exact same except for the words man and swordsman. 

As for giving Whitebeard a sword, he would not cease to become the world's strongest man but if he tried to fight Mihawk using a sword as his main weapon he would lose. Realistically we know that even if he was given a sword, he'd use his fruit as the main weapon and supplement that with the sword so he wold still win. *


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 10, 2014)

I thought there should have been more discussion on the rationale behind using Mihawk's title as an argument.

There is panel evidence that suggests that, contrary to what I was talking about earlier, the World's Strongest Swordsman is claimed by beating the current World's Strongest Swordsman. Thus to become WSS you must beat the current WSS. Zoro makes this clear in many of his panels. Thus it's highly likely that Mihawk  beat the former WSS or it was clear that he was WSS by beating all the top swordsmen.

Going back in time a bit, Mihawk has been fighting with Shanks for many battles. However, as described in the debate Mihawk seemed to stop fighting Shanks after he lost his arm likely because Mihawk thought this would be unfair. In this ten year time period of them not fighting that's when Mihawk got the WSS and either beat the WSS before him or was deemed the title after beating all the big guns. Meanwhile Shanks went on to continue his goals of becoming Pirate King. Now that Mihawk is the WSS, in order to become WSS one must beat him. However, the problem is that Shanks and Mihawk no longer have the spars they used to have in their old days. What does this mean? Shanks isn't gunning for WSS. This is obvious. But what else does this mean? It means that when using the WSS card for Mihawk, you *cannot* say that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks due to his title. You can say that Mihawk is definitely a top of the line character in terms of strength but that only goes so far in comparing him with strong fighters at that caliber. In this case since currently the WSS title is being passed down by *battling* and Mihawk and Shanks no longer *battle* it's preposterous to claim that the title guarantees that Mihawk is stronger because if they were to fight right now seriously the title would not be able to determine the outcome. Thus it's faulty to use the title as way of determine who is stronger, or even say that Mihawk "is more likely stronger".

You can say things like "Oda wanted the readers to know that Mihawk can beat anyone with a sword" but this is speculation. We cannot read Oda's mind or read his intentions. What we can know is how the title is passed down. Since Shanks isn't vying for the title nor does he battle with Mihawk anymore you cannot say the title can aid your argument in Mihawk being stronger than Shanks as explained earlier. 

Besides if Oda wanted to say that WSS = defeating anyone with a sword, Mihawk will never lose to Zoro.


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## barreltheif (Feb 10, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> I thought there should have been more discussion on the rationale behind using Mihawk's title as an argument.
> 
> There is panel evidence that suggests that, contrary to what I was talking about earlier, the World's Strongest Swordsman is claimed by beating the current World's Strongest Swordsman. Thus to become WSS you must beat the current WSS. Zoro makes this clear in many of his panels. Thus it's highly likely that Mihawk  beat the former WSS or it was clear that he was WSS by beating all the top swordsmen.
> 
> ...




When Oda introduces Mihawk with a box saying that he's the World's Strongest Swordsman, this is not telling us that Mihawk defeated the previous WSS. It is telling us that Mihawk is the person who is best at fighting using only swordsmanship. If someone else were better than or equal to Mihawk at swordsmanship, then Mihawk would not be the WSS. When Zoro surpasses Mihawk at swordsmanship, Mihawk will not be the WSS.

Shanks is worse at swordsmanship than Mihawk. If he excels at some other fighting style to the point of being better at it than any swordsman in the world is at swordsmanship, then Shanks is stronger than Mihawk. But to claim that Shanks is extremely proficient at some secret fighting style he has hidden from us so far is utter fanfiction.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 10, 2014)

warismydestiny said:


> wss arguement proven to be retarded by one of the judges own questions
> so if we hand whitebeard a sword does he cease to be the sekai saikyo no otoko because mihawk is the worlds strongest swordsman obvious answer is no so clearly his title referes to his skill in swordplay not his overall power



Pretty sure you read my post wrong.


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## Shanks (Feb 10, 2014)

Hmm, so 2 out of the 5 judges voted team Mihawk already huh? Can't blame them... there's so much more team Shanks could have done.


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## Mike S (Feb 11, 2014)

How can people deny Shanks being a swordsman because of the *possibility* of him, having another fighting style? It really is beyond me. 

He had duels with the future World's Strongest Swordsman, that shook the grand line and even caught the attention of Whitebeard. Based off that, It's painfully obvious that he had enough skill and power with a sword, to be considered a swordsman. 

Shanks does not have any visible weapons other than his sword. He was seen as a child, fighting alongside the Roger Pirates, with a sword. We also know during the time of these duels, Shanks did not have a DF because he saved Luffy from drowning. All of this strongly suggests Shanks primary fighting style was with a sword. 

Now we don't know everything that happened after shanks lost his arm but here's what we do know

*Spoiler*: __ 



-Shanks went on to become a Yonkou
-Mihawk went on to become WSS
-Shanks didn't lose any power from the loss

Shanks comments means, after losing his arm, he didn't lose any power from his primary fighting style; which was a sword. 




Now do you think Shanks just dropped his old fighting style(which he claims he lost no power in), picked up a new one, then went on to become a Yonkou?  Of course not! I mean it's basically confirmed that he didn't because he still uses his sword. He could have eaten a DF after he met Luffy, but I doubt it replaced his primary fighting style or changed it to the point where he isn't even considered a swordsman any more.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Sorry for the sloppy structure of this post. I'm tired and it's late but I just finished reading the debate and wanted to write my thoughts while they're still fresh. I might update it in the morning, if I get a chance.


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## Gilgamesh (Feb 11, 2014)

> Hmm, so 2 out of the 5 judges voted team Mihawk already huh? Can't blame them... there's so much more team Shanks could have done.



Clearly there is no hope for this section


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## Shinthia (Feb 11, 2014)

The Pirate Hunter said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am actually not agreeing or disagreeing with you on this topic. Just pointing out some things.


Shanks were a left handed guy and a left handed swordsman. So, after losing his left hand (the sword hand that is) it is not unlikely at all that he is not depended on swordsmanship alone (like Zoro,Mihawk etc pure swordsman). He is most likely a haki based fighter (his haki feats & portrayal r very good) like Vergo where bamboo (in Shanks case sword) is just a tool/medium for him to use his CoA hardening. His demon bamboo is extremely dangerous because of his haki mastery, not because of his bamboomanship.

So, its not illogical to assume that Shanks may not be a swordsman now but he was a swordsman when fought Mihawk.


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## The Bloody Nine (Feb 11, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Clearly there is no hope for this section



I knew it would turn out like this when i saw who the Shanks debaters were. They went about it completely the wrong way IMO.


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## Magician (Feb 11, 2014)

The Bloody Nine said:


> I knew it would turn out like this when i saw who the Shanks debaters were. They went about it completely the wrong way IMO.



u mad doe?


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## Unclear Justice (Feb 11, 2014)

3 judges have yet to vote. Wait for the result before complaining, guys.


Edit: Sakazuki coming in one minute later


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## RF (Feb 11, 2014)

Was really thinking team Shanks was going to win this one when I saw the opening arguments of both teams but eh......


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## Freechoice (Feb 11, 2014)

I'll be disappointed if Team Mihawk wins. I genuinely think Team Shanks performed much better overall.


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## RF (Feb 11, 2014)

Well 3/5 judges voted for Mihawk already, so...


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## Freechoice (Feb 11, 2014)

Ohhh. I haven't check it since Khris voted for Mihawk.

Darn.


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## Magician (Feb 11, 2014)

GG.

Dat 150x200, y u so far away. 

Next one should be a Mingo vs Croc debate on who's the biggest pimp. But I guess that'd be too much of a stomp.


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## warismydestiny (Feb 11, 2014)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> * Realistically we know that even if he was given a sword, he'd use his fruit as the main weapon and supplement that with the sword so he wold still win. *



That is my whole damn point! Mihawk is the better swordsmaster(swordsman is an inncorrect translation)but Shanks is stronger overall i.e strength, speed, haki wise based on all hype and portrayal etc etc.Though this is the last I will say on this topic since even if oda showed us Shanks snapping mihawks sword in two and smashing his face into the ground the mihawk fans would still be making excuses if the marineford arc didnt convince them about who is clearly superior than nothing will.

As for the debate itself my vote would also have to go to team mihawk .Team shanks were just terrible debaters they had everything handed to them on a platter team mihawk had literally nothing to go on except for the childish title argument yet they still couldnt pull it off also they kept on conceding on points which they had no business conceding on seriously who the fuck concedes in a debate.


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## Magician (Feb 11, 2014)

warismydestiny said:


> As for the debate itself my vote would also have to go to team mihawk .Team shanks were just terrible debaters they had everything handed to them on a platter team mihawk had literally nothing to go on except for the childish title argument yet they still couldnt pull it off also they kept on conceding on points which they had no business conceding on seriously who the fuck concedes in a debate.



We may be terrible debaters but your rage boner makes it all worth it.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Feb 11, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Clearly there is no hope for this section



If you had only attempted to read any post.. Like I said in my voting post, I still think of the characters as equals.. The votes are based on the teams debating skills and their ability to convince the judges, not on who is stronger.


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## halaros536 (Feb 11, 2014)

Why does everyone think we had a weak start? We just wanted to be brief in the beginning and we might have presented only one main argument, but that was because we were convinced it was enough.


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## 2Broken (Feb 11, 2014)

I like seeing how emotionally invested some posters are about Mihawk vs. Shanks. 

I enjoyed the debate and would like to say good game to my opponents.


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## halaros536 (Feb 11, 2014)

Seriously now. I can't accept someone thinking that Shanks will be stronger because he is not a swordsman, though I don't think it's likely.

People claiming that Mihawk's title might be referring to anything else than combat ability, is ludicrous though.


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## Shanks (Feb 11, 2014)

Ideas for the next debate:

1) Ray vs. Kizaru
2) Marco vs. Kizaru
3) WB Commanders vs, Akainu
4) WB, Marco, Jozu vs. Colour Trio - no distractions, no backstabbing and no heart attack


Sign me up for a pirate team if any of these ideas go into a debate.


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## Slenderman (Feb 11, 2014)

There are probably not enough people for that.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 11, 2014)

> .When Oda introduces Mihawk with a box saying that he's the World's Strongest Swordsman, this is not telling us that Mihawk defeated the previous WSS. It is telling us that Mihawk is the person who is best at fighting using only swordsmanship. If someone else were better than or equal to Mihawk at swordsmanship, then Mihawk would not be the WSS. When Zoro surpasses Mihawk at swordsmanship, Mihawk will not be the WSS.Shanks is worse at swordsmanship than Mihawk. If he excels at some other fighting style to the point of being better at it than any swordsman in the world is at swordsmanship, then Shanks is stronger than Mihawk. But to claim that Shanks is extremely proficient at some secret fighting style he has hidden from us so far is utter fanfiction.



Mihawk's introduction came after knowing about Zoro wanting to be the WSS and knowing that he needs to defeat someone to become it. Thus the infobox is just letting us know who this man  is. This this is pretty much an official title recognized as a real title just like the emperoros. Everything else is pure speculation (like he can beat any person in the world who has touchrd a sword).His title means two things, he had to beat one or more really sttong swordsmen to become it and two he is a really strong character. However this is meaningless in a debate against shanks as 1) Shanks did not fight Shanks during the 10 year time he fought for the title and 2) shanks is also a rrally strong character.

Besides if title = win against anyone with a sword this is problematic because that means Zoro will never win.


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## tanman (Feb 11, 2014)

There really is no debate as interesting and divisive as Mihawk v. Shanks. As both sides have decent arguments that they could potentially pull from. However, we saw in this case that both sides used arguments that were far from the best. Mihawk fans often reduce it to being about readers trying to "downplay Mihawk's title." And Shanks fans often use the "non-primary fighting style" argument. Both arguments are so easily debunked (based on the nature of Mihawk's title and our experience with Shanks) that it's disappointing to see them in a prepared debate like this one.


This shouldn't become Swordsmasters vs. The World, but I would really like to do *Vista v. Doflamingo*.   thread indicated it's controversial nature. And I feel that cry77 and PoP would probably be very interested in arguing for the wrong side. Unfortunately, that's not quite enough.
*
Hancock v. Current Luffy* would be an interesting one since they both have many feats and many posters still seem to think that Hancock is stronger than him.


*Weak Post Skip Character v. Strong Pre Skip Character* is also a very good form.

*Ace v. Vista* has a good amount on both sides. And a lot of people indifferent enough to make good judges.

*Fujitora v. Marco* is a very good debate as it also integrates time skip mechanics and would forge a better understanding of the world Oda is creating.

*Kuma v. Anyone* could be interesting as well because of Kuma's stellar feats but little context.


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## Magician (Feb 11, 2014)

Vista shouldn't be an any match-ups. He has zero feats.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 11, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Mihawk's introduction came after knowing about Zoro wanting to be the WSS and knowing that he needs to defeat someone to become it. Thus the infobox is just letting us know who this man  is. This this is pretty much an official title recognized as a real title just like the emperoros. Everything else is pure speculation (like he can beat any person in the world who has touchrd a sword).His title means two things, he had to beat one or more really sttong swordsmen to become it and two he is a really strong character. However this is meaningless in a debate against shanks as 1) Shanks did not fight Shanks during the 10 year time he fought for the title and 2) shanks is also a rrally strong character.
> 
> *Besides if title = win against anyone with a sword this is problematic because that means Zoro will never win*.



Although this is a manga, i do not think Oda grants the holders of title a magical power that always lets them be the strongest until they die old age/sickness.

Shanks and Mihawk are in there primes they are not getting any stronger as there is not story reason for oda to make them stronger. Zoro on the other hand is still growing, and will more then likely just like his fight with mr.1 surpass Mihawk during there fight and win the fight.

A Title is not complicated and one piece is not a complicated manga its very straight forward and even follows a formula/pattern of how oda tells the story. If  If for example someone was PK, when Luffy kicks that dudes ass he will become PK. When usopp surpasses his fighter and defeats Van he will be the king of snipers. Now could there be a dude stronger then Luffy somewhere after he becomes PK? yea sure its oda's manga he can do what he wants but we have no reason to believe such a thing. So until there comes a time where Oda says hey guys Mihawk is not actually  the WSS, which he dame well would cause Zoro plans on defeating him in order to become the WSS. Thats when we can discuss if X swordsmen is stronger then Mihawk.

Edit: In super simple terms at some point in the Manga luffy will be the Strongest man in the world, Zoro will be the WSS, and Usopp will be the Best sniper around, but we won't know all of that until Oda either tells us outright or they prove it via beating someone. Oda writes the manga if he wanted X to be the WSS he would be the WSS and would of never introduced Mihawk(As in what would be the point?).


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## Slenderman (Feb 11, 2014)

Luffy vs current Hancock would be great tanman. I'd go straight for my man Luffy.  Vista's strength is basically fan made. Some say he's a high tier others on TMF think otherwise. Some on TMF said that Vista would low diff Doffy


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## Veltpunch (Feb 11, 2014)

I know everyone's probably sick of Mihawk, but I think that Mihawk vs Rayleigh would be interesting. You have some people that for what ever reason don't think Rayleigh is a swordsman. I think it'd be interesting to see what exactly they think he does.

As for Shanks vs Mihawk, neither of them have gotten serious except for maybe Shanks clashing with Whitebeard. It's always going to be hard to say, but you'll never see Shanks downplayed and no one picks at his Yonkou title but Mihawk will forever be downplayed and people always peck at his title. New flash people: If Mihawk's title is flawed because he never beat Shanks then you are admitting two things: 1. Shanks is a swordsman and 2. Shanks title as Yonkou is flawed as well.

People would also try and say that Mihawk is simply the most skilled swordsman or has the most finesse with a sword but isn't actually stronger than other swordsmen. Needless to say, that's BS but if Shanks turns out to be a swordsman then Mihawk is stronger, period. For now, people need to accept Shanks as a swordsman since everything that he has done has been with a sword. Enough with this 'he might be more proficient with another fighting style' because if you were asked what style, you'd have no answer.


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## Orca (Feb 11, 2014)

Thumbs up to both teams for the valiant effort.


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## Dr. White (Feb 11, 2014)

So are we gonna decide on the next topic? We should get the new topics together and begin voting on them. 

Also on the Shanks vs Mihawk debate. Shanks has better portrayal. Yonko and WSS are two top tier titles, and neither denotes a clear edge over the other. Yonko = 4 Top Tier Pirates, WSS = Best swordsman. Shanks overall has much better portrayal. He is the middleground between Luffy and Roger, the passer of the torch (or strawhat). He was able to get passed Kaido on his way to Marineford whether through force, threat, or coercion (portrayal goes against the last choice), then he makes his debut stopping a rampaging Akainu who just got done eating a barrage of hits from whitebeard, and clean shots from Marco and Vista. He was gonna rampage until all pirates were dead, the only threat there was the combo of BB's crew, and the remaining WB pirates. Yet shanks just waltzes right up to akainu blocks his magma fist, and ends the war with mere words. Then we have him clashing with Whitebeard and splitting the skies indicating from a pure storytelling standpoint equality. (on a general level) We also know his pre yonko swordsmanship was on par with Pre WSS Mihawk.(think current zoro for scale) 

So he basically clashed with 3 of the upmost top tiers and never came out of those situations hurting or with a negative result. The only black mark on his record is getting scratched by BB. This can't really be written off as a plot device, but remember WB was injured/scarred by low rate marines, we don't know the situation of the fight, and it isn't too farfetched for a high tier to land a hit on a top tier.

Mihawk on the other hand has better feats which albeit is due to minimal feats on both sides. His casual iceberg feat is extremely impressive, he did it all with pure physical strength. His mid diff slash also gave Jozu (who quite readily threw an iceburg) quite a good rough time in deflecting. His swordskill is ridiculous (toying with zoro, and his obvious title) but the one black mark on his record is stalemating with vista. Although vista is anywhere from High High Tier, to Low Top (I believe the former) and Mihawk wasn't necessarily trying to take him out, it still stands. He was ready to slay his old friend shanks protege because of his duty to the WG, so it stands that in one of the most heated moments of the MF he would have been actively giving atleast mid diff to beat vista (considering he one shotted some Trannies.)

From my summation this is what I get.
-Portrayal from either clashing, intimidating, and or ditching out of mutual benefit in regards to Kaido - Mid Top Tier portrayal.
-Portrayal from splitting the heavens with WB - Mid Top Tier portrayal
-Stopping Akainu/marines in one clash and a short speech after Akainu had been bloodlusting all damn fight. - Mid top Tier portrayal
-Regularly dueling with younger Mihawk - High-High tier - Low top tier portrayal
-Getting slashed by BB - High Tier portrayal

Mihawk
-WSS Title - Mid Top Tier portrayal
-Iceburg Feat - General Top tier feat, more towards Mid than Low, but we haven't seen too much top tier fighting.
-WB measuring slash - High High - Low top tier feat.
-clashing with Vista - high High tier portrayal

Overall they are both pretty much undeniably both pretty equal mid top tiers. But shanks portrayal does more for me then Mihawks feats do. I would give shanks the slight edge in a battle, but it be Lucci - Luffy level/ akainu - Kuzan level of a battle. 

Both side had some really bad arguments though.
-The whole title debacle (team shanks)
-Trying to use stupid "shanks is a swordsmen, so therefore Mihawk >!" argument etc

But it was actually pretty good in its substance for the first debate


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## Slenderman (Feb 11, 2014)

Would any Mihawk supporters here say that Mihawk is the WSS even if Shanks is better but has never challenged him for it.


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## Shanks (Feb 11, 2014)

Actually, I say we do Mihawk vs. Shanks again, but this time we the public nominate the contestant, instead of first in first serve.


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## Soca (Feb 11, 2014)

Sh4l ain't gonna do that again, gotta keep switching the topics to keep people interested.


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## Blue Cheese (Feb 11, 2014)

i think consider improvements after that first run, it wasnt bad but i think you should increase response time. a lot of us live in different places and with time zones and stuff it maybe give sumone else better advantage.

also for same reason first come first serve should be scrapped again for time zone reasons and also maybe to make sure candidates are trusty.

next topic should be  Monster trio related but   maybe we will better waitin end of this arc for that because right now we dont know how strong sanji and zoro are and luffy pushed to limit. unless we make debate preskip, in which case all evidence is there.


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## barreltheif (Feb 11, 2014)

MonkeyDNaruto said:


> Mihawk's introduction came after knowing about Zoro wanting to be the WSS and knowing that he needs to defeat someone to become it. Thus the infobox is just letting us know who this man  is. This this is pretty much an official title recognized as a real title just like the emperoros. Everything else is pure speculation (like he can beat any person in the world who has touchrd a sword).His title means two things, he had to beat one or more really sttong swordsmen to become it and two he is a really strong character. However this is meaningless in a debate against shanks as 1) Shanks did not fight Shanks during the 10 year time he fought for the title and 2) shanks is also a rrally strong character.




"Dracule Mihawk: World's Strongest Swordsman"

This doesn't say anything about Mihawk beating anyone strong. It says that Mihawk is the strongest when it comes to swordfights.





> Besides if title = win against anyone with a sword this is problematic because that means Zoro will never win.




When Zoro wins, he will be the WSS.


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## Sayonara (Feb 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Overall they are both pretty much undeniably both pretty equal mid top tiers. But shanks portrayal does more for me then Mihawks feats do. I would give shanks the slight edge in a battle, but it be Lucci - Luffy level/ akainu - Kuzan level of a battle.



I agree with most of what you wrote there but I think for the debate they had to stick more to facts and feats. I can understand why since hype and portrayal can often be interpreted differently and can get controversial but  because of that a debate verdict is not necessarily going to always represent a general consensus. 

I agree with team mihawk being winners in this instance based on facts/feats alone, but in actuality taking into account hype and portrayal I place Shanks as number 1 contender for current WSM  while on otherhand I am not even certain Mihawk could break into top 5.


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## Slenderman (Feb 11, 2014)

How about is there a WSM or not atm.  I called it.


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## Mihawk (Feb 11, 2014)

I don't think the next topic should be revolved around the Monster Trio
M3 discussions in general, are pretty boring

Something more ambiguous and less discussed, such as Old Ray VS Old Sengoku, or any of Tanman's suggestions

Even something like Kizaru VS Aokiji, or new admirals vs old admirals, would be interesting


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 11, 2014)

> Although this is a manga, i do not think Oda grants the holders of title a magical power that always lets them be the strongest until they die old age/sickness.
> 
> Shanks and Mihawk are in there primes they are not getting any stronger as there is not story reason for oda to make them stronger. Zoro on the other hand is still growing, and will more then likely just like his fight with mr.1 surpass Mihawk during there fight and win the fight.
> 
> ...



I agree with your first paragraph. Records are meant to be broken in this is also a common Shonen trope that holds true in One Piece undoubtedly. However, my post was more geared to what was said in the debate, it was implied that Mihawk's title guaranteed beating Shanks, or at least highly indicative of him beating Shanks. However, the title is descriptive, not indicative. Meaning the title *describes* Mihawk's status as a top of the line character in terms of strength and one that had to overcome the best of the best to achieve this title. However, team Mihawk, and you too in a sense, are arguing that the title *indicates* that Mihawk will win every sword fight. However this is problematic because we know Zoro will overcome Mihawk meaning it's impossible to say that Mihawk will beat anyone with a sword because of his title yet at the same accept that Zoro will beat him in the future. 

Secondly, you're right it is a simple idea. But I think you misunderstand my point. Mihawk *is the holder of the WSS title*. That's canonical and fact. However the problem is that this is being lumped with the idea of him being able to beat anyone that holds a sword 100% of the time. That would make him immortal against characters like Zoro. Like I explained earlier, and Oda showed himself, and even you stated too, WSS is gained by beating the previous WSS or by beating all the top brass well-known swordsmen. However it has already been shown that Mihawk *did not fight Shanks during the time period where became WSS*. Shanks went his separate ways with Mihawk. So how can we confirm that Mihawk would defeat Shanks ir-regardless of the idea of Shanks having better Haki or some other unknown fighting style? It's simple, the title is merely descriptive and is no way a fail-proof determinate of every battle outcome, especially something as controversial and hard to predict as Mihawk v. Shanks.




> "Dracule Mihawk: World's Strongest Swordsman"
> 
> This doesn't say anything about Mihawk beating anyone strong. It says that Mihawk is the strongest when it comes to swordfights.



It says that he is the World's Strongest Swordsman. Which is a legitimate title in the One Piece verse; not some fan-fiction. Oda has shown to us how this title is passed down. Thus if Mihawk did not fight Shanks in the process of getting this title, how in any way, does this prove that Mihawk will without-a-doubt defeat Shanks?




> When Zoro wins, he will be the WSS.



This quote is in near direct contradiction with " It says that Mihawk is the strongest when it comes to swordfights." 


------------------------------------

Two great debate topics:

Is Strong World canonical?

Are Luffy and Zoro equal?


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## Magician (Feb 11, 2014)

Who's the World's Greatest Pimp?

Doffy or Croc?

To settle all debates. 

Do it.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Feb 11, 2014)

warismydestiny said:


> That is my whole damn point! Mihawk is the better swordsmaster(swordsman is an inncorrect translation)but Shanks is stronger overall i.e strength, speed, haki wise based on all hype and portrayal etc etc.Though this is the last I will say on this topic since even if oda showed us Shanks snapping mihawks sword in two and smashing his face into the ground the mihawk fans would still be making excuses if the marineford arc didnt convince them about who is clearly superior than nothing will.
> 
> As for the debate itself my vote would also have to go to team mihawk .Team shanks were just terrible debaters they had everything handed to them on a platter team mihawk had literally nothing to go on except for the childish title argument yet they still couldnt pull it off also they kept on conceding on points which they had no business conceding on seriously who the fuck concedes in a debate.



*Doesn't work. Things like Haki, strength, speed etc are supplementary and stuff like swordsmanship are what these supplements are channeled through. What you are saying is no different than if we put two people who are boxers against one another and say one is the better boxer but the other would win because he is physically stronger. Doesn't work that way because strength, speed etc are all factored into a person's overall boxing ability. In the same way Haki, strength, speed etc would all be factored into Shanks' and Mihawk's overall swordsmanship skill. It is impossible for Shanks to be stronger than Mihawk solely due to having stronger Haki because even if his Haki is stronger (which it almost certainly is) the combination of strength, speed, Haki etc all together channelled through his swordsmanship would still be less than Mihawk's Haki, strength etc combined channelled through his swordsmanship. It is only possible for Shanks to be stronger than Mihawk if he uses something other than swordsmanship as is main fighting style. This thing cannot be supplementary like Haki, but needs to be an actual style like hand to hand combat or a fruit. This is perfectly possible, however based on current evidence Mihawk is stronger and than is not up to dispute. It is possible evidence in the future will show Shanks is more than a swordsman, however. 

Also, while this may seem cocky I want to say that it's kind of troubling that so many people side with the Shanks argument despite not being able to debate for it. If you can't find any argument for an opinion that's a sign you are wrong. Not that everyone thinks like this, but there are definitely people around who think thy could have succeeded where the Sanks team failed but then present pretty much the exact same arguments the Shanks team did in a different flavor. 

As for the point that Shanks has superior portrayal. He doesn't, but Oda has definitely made it feel that way. I'm of the opinion this is to make the impact bigger when Blackbeard defeats him, but tis is subjective.*


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## Atlantic Storm (Feb 11, 2014)

Sorry, the vote might be a little bit late. Been swamped with things, but I've managed to catch up with the thread for the most part. Not that it matters, since I think the match has been decided by voting majority anyway, but if you still want feedback, then eh.

Again, really sorry.


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## MonkeyDNaruto (Feb 11, 2014)

> Two great debate topics:
> 
> Is Strong World canonical?
> 
> Are Luffy and Zoro equal?



Any thoughts on these topics?


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## Magician (Feb 11, 2014)

Strong World is semi canon.

Luffy and Zoro are not equal.

/debate.


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