# Tsunade vs Kakuzu



## joshhookway (Apr 21, 2013)

Location: Zombie Bros vs Asuma
Distance: 50 Meters
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: None


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

Tsunade fucking stomps. Her punches > Doton Domu, her strength > his threads and Byakugou > all his elemental mask blasts. Kakashi tanked the Futon blast and Tsunade's durability is far higher than Kakashi's. She's faster, stronger, has a better immortality technique, and isn't overwhelmed at all by multiple opponents (which is about Kakuzu's only advantage against Tsunade with his masks).


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## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't believe she can tank Raiton Gian, it seemed to be on the same level as Raikiri.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

Kakuzu wins here, quite handily. 

Katsuyu is vulnerable to fire, so she gets one shot with Kakuzu's fire. Tsunade, will have to deal with all his hearts, and fend off a barrage of attacks coming at her from different directions. Kakuzu's masks can also fly, so that gives him another advantage. Kakuzu can force the distance, as long as his masks keep up the attacks. After he keeps hitting her with his jutsu, he can weaken her with a  Wind+Fire attack, and then he can close in with his threads, and just rip her heart out.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 21, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Tsunade fucking stomps. Her punches > Doton Domu, her strength > his threads and Byakugou > all his elemental mask blasts. Kakashi tanked the Futon blast and Tsunade's durability is far higher than Kakashi's. She's faster, stronger, has a better immortality technique, and isn't overwhelmed at all by multiple opponents (which is about Kakuzu's only advantage against Tsunade with his masks).



While I agree that Tsunade wins, she does not _' fucking stomp '_. 

Her punches may be able to break through Domu, and her resilience, evasion, defensive summon and regeneration make his ninjutsu pretty ineffective, but Tsunade will be fighting all of Kakuzu's hearts at once, and she'll be forced to use either Creation Rebirth or Byakugou [techniques that shorten her life span] in order to do so. If Kakuzu can pressurise her into using those kind of life-risking techniques, then its obvious that he's giving her difficulty.​​


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## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Kakuzu wins here, quite handily.
> 
> Katsuyu is vulnerable to fire, so she gets one shot with Kakuzu's fire. Tsunade, will have to deal with all his hearts, and fend off a barrage of attacks coming at her from different directions. Kakuzu's masks can also fly, so that gives him another advantage. Kakuzu can force the distance, as long as his masks keep up the attacks. After he keeps hitting her with his jutsu, he can weaken her with a  Wind+Fire attack, and then he can close in with his threads, and just rip her heart out.



There is no reason not to believe that the Wind+Fire attack wouldn't light her up, and with no water source, she is at the mercy of being on fire [1][2]. Raiton Gian if it hits is a sure win, it has the same power to cancel Kakashi's attack and is large enough to vaporize more than 50% of her body [3].


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Kakuzu wins here, quite handily.
> 
> Katsuyu is vulnerable to fire, so she gets one shot with Kakuzu's fire. Tsunade, will have to deal with all his hearts, and fend off a barrage of attacks coming at her from different directions. Kakuzu's masks can also fly, so that gives him another advantage. Kakuzu can force the distance, as long as his masks keep up the attacks. After he keeps hitting her with his jutsu, he can weaken her with a  Wind+Fire attack, and then he can close in with his threads, and just rip her heart out.



Katsuyu is not vulnerable to fire. 

And his hearts will prove harder to fight off than 5 Susanoo clones? His ninjutsu won't be much use considering she can regenerate from damage and dodge it. When he closes in he will be in trouble, considering she's stronger and faster than him. She has shown herself to be on another level to Kakuzu I'm afraid.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> While I agree that Tsunade wins, she does not _' fucking stomp '_.
> 
> Her punches may be able to break through Domu, and her resilience, evasion, defensive summon and regeneration make his ninjutsu pretty ineffective, but Tsunade will be fighting all of Kakuzu's hearts at once, and she'll be forced to use either Creation Rebirth or Byakugou [techniques that shorten her life span] in order to do so. If Kakuzu can pressurise her into using those kind of life-risking techniques, then its obvious that he's giving her difficulty.​​



True, but once Byakugou comes out Kakuzu has no fucking chance in heaven. Fighting 5 hearts shouldn't be hard for Tsunade though considering she was fighting 5 Susanoo clones for hours. Once Byakugou is out though she curbstomps him. Although I can see what you mean, I guess the fact she will use it means it's not as much of a stomp.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> There is no reason not to believe that the Wind+Fire attack wouldn't light her up, and with no water source, she is at the mercy of being on fire [1][2]. Raiton Gian if it hits is a sure win, it has the same power to cancel Kakashi's attack and is large enough to vaporize more than 50% of her body [3].



I'm cool with that  



narut0ninjafan said:


> Katsuyu is not vulnerable to fire.
> 
> And his hearts will prove harder to fight off than 5 Susanoo clones? His ninjutsu won't be much use considering she can regenerate from damage and dodge it. When he closes in he will be in trouble, considering she's stronger and faster than him. She has shown herself to be on another level to Kakuzu I'm afraid.
> 
> ...



Or shall I say, Acid is weak against fire. Fact of life.

Don't bring in other fights to support your claims, debate this with her jutsu. She won't be able to dodge a Wind+Fire combo, along with lightning to support it at the same time. Tsunade actually has no speed feats. Who says she's closing in? Kakuzu's masks can fly, if you hadn't noticed, and a Wind+Fire combo will light her on fire. Kakuzu doesn't even need to finish her off with his masks, but rather, weaken her so much, he can close in with his threads and rip her heart out.

Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, Kakuzu has a 4.


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## Raftel (Apr 21, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Katsuyu is not vulnerable to fire.



This. Salt, maybe. But not fire.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Apr 21, 2013)

Are characters bloodlusted or IC?

If IC, Tsunade punches Kakuzu to death since he has no reason to take out his masks at match start (no knowledge).

If bloodlusted, Kakuzu I buy has the chakra capacity to just keep blasting Tsunade back from him until she dies. 50m makes it insane for Tsunade to successfully summon Katsuyu before Kakuzu is on her.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2013)

Kakuzu outlasts tsunade if she can't break through domu. If she can, tsunade eventually pounds him to death.

Either way it will be a high diffculty fight.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

Kakuzu isn't winning this.

IC with no knowledge means no starting in long-range mode, and Domu won't protect Kakuzu from Tsunade's nigh melee-nuke punches.

After he gets sent flying the first time he'll obviously switch to ranged tactics, but it ultimately does him no good as Byakugo simply makes Tsunade invulnerable to his attacks and allows her to basically juggernaut through his attacks and eventually obliterate all of his hearts.

If things get particularly annoying for her she'll summon Katsuyu. The slug withstood the village-leveling CST in mini-form and survived KN6 Naruto's corrosive shroud, so it clearly doesn't retain the weakness to heat that real-life slugs do.

Kakuzu simply can't put Tsunade or her summon down while either Susano-busting-kicks or supercharged Zesshi Nensan will take out any heart they hit.

The Princess wins. . .mid-difficulty.


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## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

You guys are being too generous on her ability to 'Tank' (the word has lost all meaning from what I can see). Raiton Gian is a game ender if she tries to "_plow or juggernaut_" through it. Cancelled out Kakashi's Raikiri's and is large enough to cover most of her body on landing. You don't believe he can put her into such an unfavorable position to land such an attack? Going to list me an off-panelled fight with the Sasuno's that were all melee ranged fighters who managed to stick two swords in her stomach? Try again. Different method of attacking when it comes to his masks.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

It isn't like people are saying Raiton Gian can't damage her, they're saying whatever damage it does do can simply be healed from- it shoots a hole through her but then the hole closes back up, that's what they mean.

I don't see why she couldn't just dodge it anyway. Kakuzu's attacks are hard to avoid because of their AoE, but Gian is laughably small in comparison to Atsugai or Zukkoku.

Kakashi was occupied with Hidan at a far enough distance to not show up on panel and still managed to get to Shikamaru and Choji then activate two Raikiri in time to block it. Clearly, you wouldn't have to be a speedster to avoid it.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> You guys are being too generous on her ability to 'Tank' (the word has lost all meaning from what I can see). Raiton Gian is a game ender if she tries to "_plow or juggernaut_" through it. Cancelled out Kakashi's Raikiri's and is large enough to cover most of her body on landing. You don't believe he can put her into such a unfavorable position to land such an attack? Going to list me an off-panelled fight with the Sasuno's that were all melee ranged fighters who managed to stick two swords in her stomach? Try again. Different method of attacking when it comes to his masks.



Raiton: Gian cannot cover most of her body, logically so as Kakashi was able to match the attack with the size of his palms alone using his Raikiri. If it covered most of someone's body, then Kakashi would've need likewise needed a defense that covered his entire body instead. Raiton: Gian is a piercing attack, so it would essentially just blow a hole in wherever part of her it connected with (Which her regeneration would easily heal). 

As others have said, Kakuzu would literally have to simultaneously release his masks at the start of the battle to sport a chance at defeating Tsunade (Which he wouldn't do under no knowledge circumstances, as it took a combination of Ino-Shika-Chou pressuring him plus Kakashi blindsiding him and destroying his heart before he released all of his masks). With no knowledge of her strength Kakuzu will likely assume that Doton: Domu will protect him from her attacks. Unfortunately, given her ability to destroy/crack Susanoo with her strength any strike she makes on Kakuzu would destroy much of Kakuzu's body while his hearts are still within him.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It isn't like people are saying Raiton Gian can't damage her, they're saying whatever damage it does do can simply be healed from- it shoots a hole through her but then the hole closes back up, that's what they mean.
> 
> I don't see why she couldn't just dodge it anyway. Kakuzu's attacks are hard to avoid because of their AoE, but Gian is laughably small in comparison to Atsugai or Zukkoku.
> 
> Kakashi was occupied with Hidan at a far enough distance to not show up on panel and still managed to get to Shikamaru and Choji then activate two Raikiri in time to block it. Clearly, you wouldn't have to be a speedster to avoid it.



I'd love to see her dodge it when all the masks go at her in one swoop. Plus, she's got to be aware of Kakuzu's threads, which have been stated by Kakashi to be fast. If she gets caught slipping, he'll just rip her heart out.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 21, 2013)

The last time this match was created i remember people were saying that tsuande gets spammed to death by elements. The comments in this thread are much better than the last one imo.

Anyway i see tsunade taking it high diff due to the multiple hearts with high level element moves being like really strong shinobi on kakuzu's side. Kakuzu and tsunade by panel evidence are not speedsters and should be around the same level of speed so hiting kakuzu will be a great task with his buddies on the field.

 Strength of a Hundred should come out once tsunade sees he elemental fusions and blasts. From there it is just a matter of how tsunade hits him because she already swatted away high level fire techs and even hidan tanked the wind attack. However the wind+fire bomb and raiton gian(seieing as it burn through rakiri to an extent) could cause some big trouble damage wise. But in tsunade's defense the wind fire bomb can be tanked with katsuyu and the lighting attack is pretty linear and i trust tsunade being a evasion specialist and having higher reactions than choji and ino can evade it if not under extreme pressure from other mask.

Katsuyu can also devastate the area with acid limiting and maybe even destroying some mask to help tsunade out so that is another nod in her direction towards victory imo.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I'm cool with that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But Katsuyu isn't.

I'm bringing in the feats she displayed in the other fight (that she can deal with multiple opponents at once). Who says she can't dodge Kakuzu's attacks (she has shown very good reactions)  or summon Katsuyu to deal with the attacks with larger AoE? Byakugou makes all his ninjutsu useless anyway. And why would flying help? She can jump huge distances (for example as she struck Madara in mid air but she has shown many other examples of this). If they get too far away, she simply targets Kakuzu himself.

Tsunade's stamina is MUCH higher than Kakuzu's so he's not weakening her at all. 

And if you think Tsunade has no speed feats despite her showing against Madara I don't think you know enough about Tsunade to be able to judge how the battle would go. Databook stats mean nothing in this case since Tsunade has shown much better speed feats than Kakuzu.


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## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

What are you guys looking at? Gian would blow more than 50% of Tsunade's body. Kakashi lifted his arms and showed to attract the focus of the Raiton Gian all on his Raikiri. Even as you see him cancelling the attack, the Raiton Gian was overlapping his entire hand and than some [1]. It's right there infront of you, how large the Raiton Gian is, even as Kakashi cancels it with his ability. You can even see it here how large it is [2].

How is it she can keep running and regenerate on the go? In fact has that EVER happened, has she ever actually 'regenerated' while simultaneously fighting? No, it has never happened. Blow a hole through her? You mean blow her apart if the attack landed. How long does it take to regenerate all those cells? Where's the feat that shows the time it takes to regenerate all that damage? Can she even regenerate ALL those cells and not collapse or die when on-panel her cell regeneration was only closing stab wounds from thin blades and blunt force attacks. I remember her sitting on the ground for about 3 pages healing when she got stuck with a sword through her stomach and a blow to the same area from Madara's bead attack. She didn't move at all, stayed kneeling on the ground with that distinct aura hovering over her head [3][4].

You guys are feeding her feats she doesn't have.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> But Katsuyu isn't.
> 
> I'm bringing in the feats she displayed in the other fight (that she can deal with multiple opponents at once). Who says she can't dodge Kakuzu's attacks or summon Katsuyu to deal with the attacks with larger AoE? Byakugou makes all his ninjutsu useless anyway. And why would flying help? She can jump huge distances as she struck Madara in mid air. If they get too far away, she simply targets Kakuzu himself.
> 
> ...



Tsunade actually has no "blitzing" or notable "dodging" feats. That one with Shizune was just terrible, and apparently reacting before A is a pile of bullshit. She can't dodge Kakuzu's barrage of attacks. Madara was taking the piss out of the Gokage, he knows what Edo tensei's all about, he knew he'd reform. 

Kakuzu would rip her heart out.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I'd love to see her dodge it when all the masks go at her in one swoop. Plus, she's got to be aware of Kakuzu's threads, which have been stated by Kakashi to be fast. If she gets caught slipping, he'll just rip her heart out.



Chances are she could. If fired simultaneously Gian would likely get there first (since Shika and Choji, who were about to be caught by Gian still managed to slip away from the others) and thus it'd be the first one she wants to dodge anyway. *Then* she'd worry about the others.

Tsunade can tear through those threads like paper and laugh at Kakuzu for trying.


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## Jad (Apr 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It isn't like people are saying Raiton Gian can't damage her, they're saying whatever damage it does do can simply be healed from- it shoots a hole through her but then the hole closes back up, that's what they mean.
> 
> I don't see why she couldn't just dodge it anyway. Kakuzu's attacks are hard to avoid because of their AoE, but Gian is laughably small in comparison to Atsugai or Zukkoku.
> 
> Kakashi was occupied with Hidan at a far enough distance to not show up on panel and still managed to get to Shikamaru and Choji then activate two Raikiri in time to block it. Clearly, you wouldn't have to be a speedster to avoid it.



Notice in all my posts I did not say who wins the battle nor did I say if she can or cannot dodge the techniques. I'm simply replying to the scenarios where people say "_She can just tank all the attacks_" or "_She can juggernaut through them_" which to me sounds really far fetched considering on-panel showings.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Chances are she could. If fired simultaneously Gian would likely get there first (since Shika and Choji, who were about to be caught by Gian still managed to slip away from the others) and thus it'd be the first one she wants to dodge anyway. *Then* she'd worry about the others.
> 
> Tsunade can tear through those threads like paper and laugh at Kakuzu for trying.



Right, but when they come from different directions, then what? She won't dodge them all. Heck, she won't even be able to dodge his Wind+Fire combo, which would allow him to rip her heart out.

Not when his threads are around her whole body, including Tsunade's arms. Kakuzu can emit threads from anywhere in his body, he can tie her up, then remove her heart.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

@ Jad,
Well. . .the definition of "tank" differs from poster to poster.

For some it means taking lolzerodamage in the first place, for others it means simply being able to come out of something ultimately unscathed- because of Byakugo, she would be able to get rid of any damage she takes, thus fitting the latter definition.

So wouldn't _necessarily_ be wrong to say Tsunade could "tank" Gian, but maybe it would be more clear what people meant if they said "endure" or something.

@ Minato Namikaze,
If Gian passes her first it leaves a gap for her to dodge through to avoid Zukkoku and Atsugai; maybe not fully, but she'd at least be able to avoid taking a *direct* hit.

If Kakuzu uses Gian and the Katon/Futon combo at the same time then that's only two directions cut off from Tsunade, so she can evade to the side.

Tsunade isn't like Sakura. Her strength isn't exclusive to striking power, she can just yank her arms up and it should rip her free.


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## Bonly (Apr 21, 2013)

It depends on how many hits it would take Tsunade to get past Doton Domu. If she can't get past it in one hit then Kakuzu is likely either send his hearts out or into mid/long range mode. Once that happens it comes down to a battle of battle of attrition because Tsunade can likely dodge/heal from most attacks while Kakuzu can get away from her CQC attempts.


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## Axiom (Apr 21, 2013)

If Tsunade doesn't summon Katsyuya, I think Kakuzu would take it.  Tsunade would be hard pressed to land a hit on Kakuzu in CQC given his fighting style, and it's not like he's particularly bad at CQC either.  He's got super strength too, not on Tsunade's level but nothing to scoff at.  If he hits her, particularly with Domu activated, she'll be knocked back too far to just tank it and hit him back.  And even if she could overwhelm him in CQC, I'm somewhat skeptical as to whether or not she can actually bust Domu.  Honestly I don't think she could.

And that's only considering CQC, which is Tsunade's only shot.  Kakuzu is a ranged fighter and eventually the combination of his masks, given their massive AoE and power, will be enough to take Tsunade down.

If she does summon Katsyuya, though, she gets a powerful acidic AoE attack of her own, a tank, and a healer.  It's mainly Katsyuya's acid that I think tips the scale in Tsunade's favor.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

Jad said:


> What are you guys looking at? Gian would blow more than 50% of Tsunade's body. Kakashi lifted his arms and showed to attract the focus of the Raiton Gian all on his Raikiri. Even as you see him cancelling the attack, the Raiton Gian was overlapping his entire hand and than some [1]. It's right there infront of you, how large the Raiton Gian is, even as Kakashi cancels it with his ability. You can even see it here how large it is [2].
> 
> How is it she can keep running and regenerate on the go? In fact has that EVER happened, has she ever actually 'regenerated' while simultaneously fighting? No, it has never happened. Blow a hole through her? You mean blow her apart if the attack landed. How long does it take to regenerate all those cells? Where's the feat that shows the time it takes to regenerate all that damage? Can she even regenerate ALL those cells and not collapse or die when on-panel her cell regeneration was only closing stab wounds from thin blades and blunt force attacks. I remember her sitting on the ground for about 3 pages healing when she got stuck with a sword through her stomach and a blow to the same area from Madara's bead attack. She didn't move at all, stayed kneeling on the ground with that distinct aura hovering over her head [3][4].
> 
> You guys are feeding her feats she doesn't have.



Actually she has attacked which 2 large blades in her, attacked while she still had a large hole in her abdomen, attacked while she was damaged from Orochimaru's slashes. 

It looks like it was 2 separate bolts aimed at both Shikamaru and Chouji to me, and I dont see why Tsunade can't dodge. The Raiton Gian still wouldn't be much use against Tsunade either way, I'm sure you must admit due to Bykaugou given what she's shown. 



Minato Namikaze said:


> Tsunade actually has no "blitzing" or notable "dodging" feats. That one with Shizune was just terrible, and apparently reacting before A is a pile of bullshit. She can't dodge Kakuzu's barrage of attacks. Madara was taking the piss out of the Gokage, he knows what Edo tensei's all about, he knew he'd reform.
> 
> Kakuzu would rip her heart out.



She blitzed Madara before he had a chance to react and blew half his body apart. And it's not "apparently reacting" she legitimately reacted before any other Kages could move. So of course she could dodge (but she did the selfless thing and saved the other Kage since otherwise if she just dodged the others would be toast). Saying Shizune's blitz was "just terrible" is a bit of a weak argument.

She was doing fine against a barrage of attacks from 5 Susanoo clones by the way, is a master of evasion, has very good reflexes and speed, and can regenerate from any attack Kakuzu can throw at her. She showed against Madara she's just on a different tier to Kakuzu.

And how is he going to rip her heart out? I doubt his threads are strong enough to hold Tsunade down.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

Shizune wasn't expecting her teacher to just knock her out cold, was she? 

She's the biggest tank out of all the Kage she was with, she knows she could tank it, thus she was the first one to move. Byakugo ensured she wouldn't die from it, so obviously she's going to be the one to go forward.

Kakuzu's masks can hold her off long enough for Kakuzu to pin her down and rip her heart out. Her strength is futile when his threads are wrapped around her entire body, including her arms and legs. Then, he can emit threads from his chest to go straight for Tsunade's heart.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Shizune wasn't expecting her teacher to just knock her out cold, was she?
> 
> She's the biggest tank out of all the Kage she was with, she knows she could tank it, thus she was the first one to move. Byakugo ensured she wouldn't die from it, so obviously she's going to be the one to go forward.
> 
> Kakuzu's masks can hold her off long enough for Kakuzu to pin her down and rip her heart out. Her strength is futile when his threads are wrapped around her entire body, including her arms and legs. Then, he can emit threads from his chest to go straight for Tsunade's heart.





Threads are raishinsho fodder?


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## Magician (Apr 21, 2013)

I honestly can't see Tsunade getting close enough to even do damage. Kakuzu's mask can cause some major chaos, although she can regenerate from the damage, it would take a considerable amount of time if her whole body is charred and electrocuted. That would give Kakuzu enough time to use his threads to rip her heart out.

Kakuzu's AoE and versatility is too much for a close range fighter with limited speed feats.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Shizune wasn't expecting her teacher to just knock her out cold, was she?
> 
> She's the biggest tank out of all the Kage she was with, she knows she could tank it, thus she was the first one to move. Byakugo ensured she wouldn't die from it, so obviously she's going to be the one to go forward.
> 
> Kakuzu's masks can hold her off long enough for Kakuzu to pin her down and rip her heart out. Her strength is futile when his threads are wrapped around her entire body, including her arms and legs. Then, he can emit threads from his chest to go straight for Tsunade's heart.



Either way, she still couldn't react to it before Tsunade knocked her out. That's kind of the point of a blitz. 

No. Mei tried to react but wasn't fast enough, I doubt the Kages were just waiting on Tsunade to block the attack. If they could have blocked the attack/dodged/hell, even reacted, I think they would have.

Her strength isn't simple hitting strength remember, she can lift Gamabunta's enormous tanto and guide it. Her strength is actual full body strength, I doubt his threads would hold her down for long, if he could even get her with his threads - she has shown good speed and reaction feats as I've said before.



BD said:


> I honestly can't see Tsunade getting close enough to even do damage. Kakuzu's mask can cause some major chaos, although she can regenerate from the damage, it would take a considerable amount of time if her whole body is charred and electrocuted. That would give Kakuzu enough time to use his threads to rip her heart out.
> 
> Kakuzu's AoE and versatility is too much for a close range fighter with limited speed feats.



Why would she be charred - punching Madara's katons caused relatively little damage to her, and nothing she couldn't regenerate from fairly quickly? She could dodge (she has shown good reaction feats and the ability to jump huge distances quickly) or even summon Katsuyu to block it if she felt she couldn't regenerate from it (which is very unlikely). Same goes for Kakuzu's raitons, except those are much easier to dodge due to their small AoE.

She has shown quite a lot of speed feats actually. His AoE and versatility aren't much good against Byakugou I'm afraid.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Shizune wasn't expecting her teacher to just knock her out cold, was she?
> 
> She's the biggest tank out of all the Kage she was with, she knows she could tank it, thus she was the first one to move. Byakugo ensured she wouldn't die from it, so obviously she's going to be the one to go forward.
> 
> Kakuzu's masks can hold her off long enough for Kakuzu to pin her down and rip her heart out. Her strength is futile when his threads are wrapped around her entire body, including her arms and legs. Then, he can emit threads from his chest to go straight for Tsunade's heart.



Shizune was prepared to fight her, what else did she expect Tsunade to do?

In all likelihood, Ay is straight up durable enough to smack the fireballs away without taking any damage at all. The fireballs did less damage to Tsunade than Mabui's lightspeed transfer thingy. . .which Ay took no damage from whatsoever.

If I were to wrap a person up in a big sheet of paper (which is what the threads will feel like to Tsunade), they would be able to jerk their arms and rip out of it no problem.

On a side note: where the fudge are Tsunade's pants in the picture The Pirate on Wheels posted?


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Shizune was prepared to fight her, what else did she expect Tsunade to do?
> 
> In all likelihood, Ay is straight up durable enough to smack the fireballs away without taking any damage at all. The fireballs did less damage to Tsunade than Mabui's lightspeed transfer thingy. . .which Ay took no damage from whatsoever.
> 
> ...



I recall Tsunade getting a cheap shot

Not the point. Tsunade is the most advanced Medical Nin. of all time. If anyone's going to tank an attack, it's gonna have to be her. After all, she's the one with the seal which makes her pretty much invincible when activated

Not before Kakuzu sends some threads to her heart though...



narut0ninjafan said:


> Either way, she still couldn't react to it before Tsunade knocked her out. That's kind of the point of a blitz.
> 
> No. Mei tried to react but wasn't fast enough, I doubt the Kages were just waiting on Tsunade to block the attack. If they could have blocked the attack/dodged/hell, even reacted, I think they would have.
> 
> Her strength isn't simple hitting strength remember, she can lift Gamabunta's enormous tanto and guide it. Her strength is actual full body strength, I doubt his threads would hold her down for long, if he could even get her with his threads - she has shown good speed and reaction feats as I've said before.



Ah, okay. I never knew a cheap short counted as a blitz... if that's the best she's got, then try harder.

Mei, and how fast is she?

Like I said, if he wraps her body in threads, by the time she's about to break out, Kakuzu would of sent threads to pierce, and remove her heart. Not enough time for Tsunade to react accordingly.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I recall Tsunade getting a cheap shot
> 
> Not the point. Tsunade is the most advanced Medical Nin. of all time. If anyone's going to tank an attack, it's gonna have to be her. After all, she's the one with the seal which makes her pretty much invincible when activated
> 
> Not before Kakuzu sends some threads to her heart though...



I recall Shizune saying she'd stop Tsunade from going even in exchange for her life. I recall Tsunade telling Shizune not to dare use such a tone with her. Shizune isn't a retard, she knew what she was getting into and she had every warning sign she needed, in no way was that a cheap shot.

If the other Kages were relying on her why did Mei attempt to use a Suiton? You think Gaara- who could shield them with his sand, Onoki- who could erect another rock hand to shield them, and Ay- who could have also smacked them away while RnY shielded his hand, just decided they'd stand there and let the person who's method actually requires getting burned take care of it? El-oh-el.

Assuming Kakuzu can tear her heart out in less than half a second like you seem to be telling us. . .what prevents her from growing another heart as she tears her way out?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 21, 2013)

> Mei, and how fast is she?



Mei's seal speed is fast enough to combo suitons into suitons.  She's a kage level shinobi who specializes in ninjutsu as well, and as the scan shows, she was re-actively countering Madara's katons through the match, and she could time her lava between Ei's attacks.  [Uno] [Dos] So obviously she's not slow.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I recall Shizune saying she'd stop Tsunade from going even in exchange for her life. I recall Tsunade telling Shizune not to dare use such a tone with her. Shizune isn't a retard, she knew what she was getting into and she had every warning sign she needed, in no way was that a cheap shot.
> 
> If the other Kages were relying on her why did Mei attempt to use a Suiton? You think Gaara- who could shield them with his sand, Onoki- who could erect another rock hand to shield them, and Ay- who could have also smacked them away while RnY shielded his hand, just decided they'd stand there and let the person who's method actually requires getting burned take care of it? El-oh-el.
> 
> Assuming Kakuzu can tear her heart out in less than half a second like you seem to be telling us. . .what prevents her from growing another heart as she tears her way out?



I just read it. Does it look like Shizune is ready to fight? She's sweating like crazy, and making these half-hearted threats? She was scared man, look at the scan. If you think that's going to be enough to pull one over on Kakuzu, think again.

Maybe because Tsunade has the most stamina out of all of them?...

Growing another heart? Have you gone insane? That's *instant* death mate, her chakra system would completely shut down. Now you're being ridiculous.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 21, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Mei's seal speed is fast enough to combo suitons into suitons.  She's a kage level shinobi who specializes in ninjutsu as well, and as the scan shows, she was re-actively countering Madara's katons through the match, and she could time her lava between Ei's attacks.  [Uno] [Dos] So obviously she's not slow.



Never knew handseal speed = speed 
Reaction time, maybe. But she has no actual speed feats.


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## ueharakk (Apr 21, 2013)

I think tsunade would win.

Kakuzu doesn't have the kind of beheading or body vaporizing attacks that usually is the requirement to take tsunade down.

Sure his katons, fuutons and raitons are super powerful, but the former two garner lots of their power from their sheer AoE and size, it's not going to do super gross amounts of damage, she could probably muscle her way through the technique while her byakugo is activated and pound on the masks that use the tech.

Raiton gian should punch a hole or two in her, but she's used to getting penetrated by multiple spears/swords and not have it affect her combat ability and she most definitely can at least avoid getting a headshot by raiton gian if kakashi can intercept the attack.

Threads are a no no on tsunade as it's going to be a repeat of what happened to oro when he tried to choke her to death with his tongue.

I doubt Domu is immune to her punches that are strong enough to crack large ribcage susanoo or blow a person's body up on contact.  

Against Kakuzu, Tsunade is pretty much invincible until her byakugo runs out and pretty much everyone that has to drain her byakugo completely before killing her loses to her in the battledome unless you are a top tier.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I just read it. Does it look like Shizune is ready to fight? She's sweating like crazy, and making these half-hearted threats? She was scared man, look at the scan. If you think that's going to be enough to pull one over on Kakuzu, think again.
> 
> Maybe because Tsunade has the most stamina out of all of them?...
> 
> Growing another heart? Have you gone insane? That's *instant* death mate, her chakra system would completely shut down. Now you're being ridiculous.



Of course she was scared. She knew she would get blitzed. 

Ay has chakra levels comparable to Gyuki. . .Tsunade is a chakra beast but she doesn't have Ay's stamina.

Splitting someone's stomach in half is also instant death is it not?
We've seen Tsunade have her heart damaged before. Haku didn't instantly die when Kakashi obliterated hit his heart with Raikiri, and he isn't as resilient as a Senju/Uzumaki hybrid. Kakashi didn't seem suspicious of Kakuzu being able to live long enough curse him after having his heart obliterated, and he didn't know Kakuzu had 5 hearts.

Unlike either of these two, Tsunade has a technique to regenerate her internal organs, so yeah she should grow another heart.


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## Empathy (Apr 21, 2013)

Kakuzu won't be able to kill to her with regeneration activated. He can blast and shoot holes through her, burn her, impale her, and rip her organs out, but not kill her. He'll have to outlast her regeneration. Tsunade's deadliest at close-range; her blows are enough to hurt him through _Doton: Domu_, though it should still reduce the force of the impact. Kakuzu is powerful at all ranges, however. He has access to his long-range form and long-distance ninjutsu as well, which he can use to bombard her with from afar. Moreover, it's often overlooked that Kakuzu will need to be killed five times so he certainly has the means for a battle of attrition. When most are dead if Tsunade's able to reach them once, Kakuzu has margin for error in the form of additional lives and he can reduce the damage sustained. It'll be especially hard for Tsunade to reach Kakuzu's hearts. They're agile and weak up close, so they'll shoot her from afar.

When Tsunade tries to close the distance and punch one of them, she'll be met with a blast. Katsuyu is incredibly useful defensive wise, and she'll be needed once Tsunade's regeneration runs dry. Kakuzu can't do much to kill her, but any defense can only take so much before it gives way and falters. Katsuyu is still mortal. _Zesshi Nensan_ is Tsunade's only ranged attack and it can be easily blown away with Kakuzu's fuuton or katon. I see Tsunade dying once her defenses run dry before she can reach Kakuzu and kill him up close enough times. Kakuzu's too analytical and pragmatic. He'll see Tsunade's brute strength and know she's at her most lethal at close-range. He's resourceful enough to fight at all ranges with startling, deadly efficiency and his defenses are enough (multiple lives, _Doton: Domu_) for margin for error. I'd give it to Kakuzu with no less than high difficulty.


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 21, 2013)

kakuzu wins w/ his explosive, sky-blotting, wind-fire_combo spammage.

katsyuu burns along with her master.

Raiton gian isnt even neccessary, though it would end the match quicker, in 2 shots as *@Jad* implied. But the fire works on the slug.

kakuzu can take her heart if he wishes, after the slug is gone, via ''tendrill grab~gian blast''  combos; etc.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 21, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Never knew handseal speed = speed
> Reaction time, maybe. But she has no actual speed feats.



Yeah, it's a cross-comparison, but no less valid.  

Both recognized and both tried to act with their respective approaches.  Mei with her fast casting, and Tsunade with her shunshin.  Tsunade's shunshin won.

It counts as Tsunade's speed feat because Mifune does the same thing to jam ninjutsu, and it's said that he can only beat hand seals to the punch because his blitz is mega fast.  Which means that casting speed is almost always much faster than general movement speed.  

Mei's actually running speed is probably average for her tier, and vastly inferior to her seal speed.


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## Punished Pathos (Apr 22, 2013)

Tusnade's strongest punch will send shockwaves through Kakazu's entire body thus shattering all the hearts.

Tusnade wins


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Of course she was scared. She knew she would get blitzed.
> 
> Ay has chakra levels comparable to Gyuki. . .Tsunade is a chakra beast but she doesn't have Ay's stamina.
> 
> ...



No, she was simply scared of Tsunade on a whole, as she clearly made threats towards Shizune. Like I said, that's not enough.

Right, but Tsunade is a Senju here, and if I remember correctly, who was handing chakra out? Tsunade clearly had the most stamina out of the 5 kage.

You're missing the point. When Kakuzu actually rips her heart out, her chakra system will be forced to shut down; the heart is the most important organ of the body. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that, losing your heart is instant death. How can she regenerate when her chakra system is off?

Actually, Kakashi and Ino-Shika-Cho were all confused as to how Kakuzu were alive, and they all kept on questioning why Kakashi's Raikiri didn't finish him off. I'll show you scans if you want.


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

*This could go either way, in my opinion.*

While I'm not sure if Tsunade could land a critical hit on Kakuzu with _Doton Domu_ active, it would take time and a lot of effort to kill him.

Neither sides having knowledge on the other equally favors both, but figuring out that Kakuzu has 5 hearts would take some time. Additionally, Kakuzu would figure out right away to keep his distance and avoid close combat.

No restrictions means Tsunade has access to _Byakugo_ and Katsuyu, which would be a great help.

This would most likely be settled once one of them runs out of chakra. I daresay it's a stalemate.


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> But she has no actual speed feats.



She does have a few and Mei clearly isn't slow. [1]

While Zetsu isn't the best fighter, he certainly is rational and analytical. Now as you can see from the scan I provided, he was convinced he would get the Feudal Lords. However, he was intercepted in mid-air without having time to react.

Moreover, , being able to keep up with her fellow Kages and time her attacks with them, especially Ei, should be enough proof to clear all doubts.

She's far from being slow.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> She does have a few and Mei clearly isn't slow. [1]
> 
> While Zetsu isn't the best fighter, he certainly is rational and analytical. Now as you can see from the scan I provided, he was convinced he would get the Feudal Lords. However, he was intercepted in mid-air without having time to react.



Mei's feat against zetsu is NOT evidence of a speed feat.

Mei's attack is a surprise attack, and exactly the same as Kakuzu's surprise attack on Kakashi.

Neither are evidence for speed feats b/c their opponents did not know they were there.

As a note, Kakuzu, Mei, and Tsunade are all in the same speed tier.  None of them have speed feats such as kakashi (who has innumerable amounts of them throughout the entire manga), and yet kakashi is still below speedsters like minato/raikage (who have true speed feats).



FlamingRain said:


> ...Tsunade has a technique to regenerate her internal organs, so yeah she should grow another heart.



For gian, yea, she can regen her heart, but "grow another heart" implies kakuzu pulled it out with jiongu, for which case, no, tsunade would be dead b/c she cannot grow another heart, she can only regenerate her cells.



> The Pirate on Wheels said:
> 
> 
> > Mei's seal speed is fast enough to combo suitons into suitons.  She's a kage level shinobi who specializes in ninjutsu as well, and as the scan shows, she was re-actively countering Madara's katons through the match, and she could time her lava between Ei's attacks.  [Uno] [Dos] So obviously she's not slow.
> ...



You guys are looking at it the wrong way.  Mei's lava is the rate limiting step, as Raikage is light-speed levels faster than mei's attack  (note: the attack, not her jutsu execution speed, which is very fast).

So it's Raikage dodging Mei, NOT the vice versa, where mei has to time her shot to not hit raikage.

Mei only countered 1 katon.  The others, she fainted, and wasn't fast enough.

Though honestly she should have made it given her jutsu exectuion speed; it seems like kishi needed tsunade to hit the fire so he could show byakugou running out, as raikage didnt need saving (his speed is ridiculous), gaara didn't need saving (sand, duh), geezer may  have needed saving, and mei could have EASILY made the water jutsu before it reached her (look at that distance, and compare it to this distance), just maybe not fast enough to protect all of them.

This only gives her reaction and jutsu execution speeds, but not physical movement speeds (which would mean gian is a 100% hit, since shika is in her same speed tier)

Tsunade's movement speeds are similar.  SHE is the rate limiting step, as she is nowhere near Raikage's speed.  It is raikage that has to time his attack strike with Tsunade's, b/c she is the slower one, not the other way around.

Comparing Tsunade's physical speed to that of Raikage's is like comparing a turtle to a hare.



narut0ninjafan said:


> She blitzed Madara before he had a chance to react and blew half his body apart.



Tsunade did blitz Madara, but he saw through it.  So it's not a true blitz in the sense that she didn't get his main body, but a bunshin, and madara proved he saw through her attack with a sword to her belly.



narut0ninjafan said:


> ...She was doing fine against a barrage of attacks from 5 Susanoo clones by the way, is a master of evasion...



Susano'o clones are kenjutsu/taijutsu, which is completely different than ranged attacks from masks.  Also, susano'o is relatively immobile and much larger of a target compared to the masks.  Comparing the susano'o to the masks is flawed due to these major differing fighting styles and properties.

*Unlike Susano'o, the masks can kite poor Tsunade *.  As she tries to close the gap on one, another is shooting at her from another angle (or another from yet another angle), which upon explosion (if it's zukkoku or atsugai), it will hinder her vision and she'll lose her tracking on the original mask.

She may regenerate just fine from the masks, but she will have a hell of a time catching them, as they dash about blasting her with stuff to either hinder her vision (she isn't a sensor, so won't be able to keep tracking the masks within the explosion she is tanking) or dmg her a good amount with gian (which would slow her down a little bit in her pursuit).


Concerning Tsunade being able to dodge Gian:
Others have noted (just didn't quote) she could dodge Gian b/c kakashi was able to jump in front of it.

This is a partial strawman of what existed in the fight.


Kakashi is a character with countless speed feats (Tsunade, Mei, and Kakuzu have none)
After atsugai went off, Hidan and Kakashi disengaged, as kakashi dodged the bulk of the attack.  He was no longer under pressure from either hidan or kakuzu (he was not out of the fight, but he wasn't focused on anymore)
During this time of not being pressured, he would have noted hidan and kakuzu's movements (since he's still in the fight), and seen kakuzu focusing on Shika/choji (afterall, they noticed it, and even ino of all people noticed it), so Kakashi would obviously have noticed it as well,  and would have already started shunshin'ing towards them to intercept
The gian is fast, since its showings are initiation (at mouth), then 90% of the way to shika/choji (with a part of kakashi being shown).  That, and it's lightning, not water, earth, fire, but lightning with the inherent speed assumed to be that of lightning (or near-lightning) as it wasn't implied to be significantly slower than said element.

So it's not that kakashi is faster than the lightning that was implied, but that he (like shika, choji, ino) saw that Kakuzu (via his glare directly at them) was focusing his attack on shika/choji next, followed by the mask's opening prep for the attack.  That was the vital time kakashi needed to start his intercept.

Think of it like a much slower version of how sharingan anticipation works.  You know the attack is coming, so you move to anticipate said attack (which is what kakashi did; and even shika tried to prep given the scroll too).  All of this was drawn before the attack left the mask's mouth.

Tsunade/Mei would be able to anticipate the attack as well (if staring directly at the mask during its prep), but neither have the foot speed to dodge it once it fires (especially if they are worried about another blast from another direction, or jiongu from another, etc).​


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

KakuzuForever said:


> Mei's feat against zetsu is NOT evidence of a speed feat.
> 
> Mei's attack is a surprise attack, and exactly the same as Kakuzu's surprise attack on Kakashi.
> 
> Neither are evidence for speed feats b/c their opponents did not know they were there.



It's not like Zetsu to jump in carelessly, without making sure the area is clear before launching an attack. Can't Zetsu sense chakra as well? I fail to see how a surprise attack would actually be 'surprising', when he has all the tools he needs to pinpoint his enemies.

So yes, being able to cover the distance from her 'hiding spot' until she intercepted Zetsu in mid-air _is_ a speed feat in my book, especially when her opponent didn't even realize she was there with a bunch of other ninjas.

I seriously do not understand what you're trying to prove. I'm not saying Mei is faster than Kakuzu, I'm not even comparing them... I don't even know why Mei was dragged into this in the first place, but I saw that guy make a statement about her lack of speed and I simply commented on it.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> No, she was simply scared of Tsunade on a whole, as she clearly made threats towards Shizune. Like I said, that's not enough.
> 
> Right, but Tsunade is a Senju here, and if I remember correctly, who was handing chakra out? Tsunade clearly had the most stamina out of the 5 kage.
> 
> ...



Shizune made the first threat though, she just said she was ready to give up her life. If she didn't think Tsunade was going to knock her out of the way she wouldn't have said "even in exchange for my life". I'm just not going to buy "it doesn't count because Shizune was scared".

Are you seriously trying to tell me Tsunade has as much or even more chakra than the Hachibi?

The heart being instant death would apply to _normal_ people, not Senju/Uzumaki's. Again, having everything below your chest smashed off is instant death, too, yet it didn't kill Tsunade. Kakuzu tearing her heart out won't kill her instantly if Kakashi using Raikiri on Haku or Kakuzu didn't kill them instantly.
They were confused Kakuzu stayed alive long enough to strike back, yes. But that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying none of them found it suspicious that Kakuzu cursed Kakashi before playing possum. If taking out a heart was an instant death they would have been shocked that he even managed to say anything before that.

Besides, even if it did shut down her base chakra system the chakra Tsunade uses to regenerate is released from the seal on her forehead, not her heart.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> *This could go either way, in my opinion.*
> 
> While I'm not sure if Tsunade could land a critical hit on Kakuzu with _Doton Domu_ active, it would take time and a lot of effort to kill him.
> 
> ...



Tsunade has enough strength to smash through a higher version of Susano'o, and blow a hole through Madara's metal armour. I don't think she'll have any trouble smashing through Kakuzu's doton. 

Even if Kakuzu does keep his distance, Tsunade can afford to charge towards him and his large-scale ninjutsu - she has a wide assortment of techniques to defend herself against them. 



KakuzuForever said:


> As a note, Kakuzu, Mei, and Tsunade are all in the same speed tier.  *None of them have speed feats* such as kakashi (who has innumerable amounts of them throughout the entire manga)
> 
> ...
> 
> Kakashi is a character with countless speed feats *(Tsunade, Mei, and Kakuzu have none)*



Massively bold () statements here. Tsunade has dodged attacks from a soldier-pill enhanced Kabuto in Part I, she's blitzed Orochimaru, she's covered larger distances than Onoki covered and in shorter periods of time, she's attacked in unison with Base Ei, she's landed hits on Susano'o clones, and she's batted away Madara's katon before her Kage peers could react. Moreover, she has a 3.5 in speed in the DB, thats a full tier above the average _2.5_, and setting her only a 1.5 below the maximum stat of _5_.

If you need scans I'll happily provide and justify them.



> For gian, yea, she can regen her heart, but "grow another heart" implies kakuzu pulled it out with jiongu, for which case, no, tsunade would be dead b/c she cannot grow another heart, she can only regenerate her cells.



She's had entire sets of organs destroyed before [1] [2] And having been bisected by Madara it would be natural to assume that; given how much _blood_ has oozed out of her, her body can function even without working systems. 

And I believe you've misread that scan, Tsunade says that she can physically _" reconstruct "_ any part or organ of her body using the Creation Rebirth. There really isn't any reason she couldn't regrow a heart anyway, since she's regrown other organs/bones before.



> Tsunade's movement speeds are similar.  SHE is the rate limiting step, as she is nowhere near Raikage's speed.  *It is raikage that has to time his attack strike with Tsunade's, b/c she is the slower one*, not the other way around.



_Prove it_.




> Tsunade did blitz Madara, but he saw through it.  So it's not a true blitz in the sense that she didn't get his main body, but a bunshin, and madara proved he saw through her attack with a sword to her belly.



I'm not sure if what Tsunade destroyed was a wood clone, since Madara's insides looked like they were made of _ash_. Whereas when wood clones are destroyed they revert back into their original form. [1]



> Susano'o clones are kenjutsu/taijutsu, which is completely different than ranged attacks from masks.  Also, susano'o is *relatively immobile* and much larger of a target compared to the masks.  Comparing the susano'o to the masks is flawed due to these major differing fighting styles and properties.



A bipedal susano'o clone was able to _get behind Ei and grab him_ in the brief moment he was distracted by Tsunade. This is the same man who could evade point blank chakra blasts and Amaterasus at the very last moment.



> She may regenerate just fine from the masks, but *she will have a hell of a time catching them*, as they dash about blasting her with stuff to either hinder her vision (she isn't a sensor, so won't be able to keep tracking the masks within the explosion she is tanking) or dmg her a good amount with gian (which would slow her down a little bit in her pursuit).




Wasn't Chouji was able to _crush one_? And Tenten managed to hit one with her Banana Fan. They aren't that fast, and its not like Tsunade's going to be overwhelmed given that she has a summon who can divide into literally _thousands_ of divisions. If anyone is going to be overwhelmed its more likely to be Kakuzu.​​


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 22, 2013)

To the people who keep claiming Tsunade doesn't have any speed feats - I know some are trolling on purpose, but do the rest of you actually believe this? If so, I would strongly recommend you read the manga involving her fights again, since it's kind of pointless to argue how fights would pan out if you don't know enough about the characters to judge properly.

And as to the troll vehemently posting about blitzing, there's no point discussing further with someone who is firmly set against Tsunade despite not even knowing enough about her to make any valid judgements. But a blitz is when the opponent can't react in my opinion. Did you want Tsunade to fucking tell Shizune she was about to hit her before she did?


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

@Synn

I ask for speed feats from Mei, and you show me against Zetsu? Pffft.



FlamingRain said:


> Shizune made the first threat though, she just said she was ready to give up her life. If she didn't think Tsunade was going to knock her out of the way she wouldn't have said "even in exchange for my life". I'm just not going to buy "it doesn't count because Shizune was scared".
> 
> Are you seriously trying to tell me Tsunade has as much or even more chakra than the Hachibi?
> 
> ...



Right, Shizune said that. But like I said earlier, *she was extremely scared, and it was a half hearted threat.*

_crush one_

Does she look like she's about to fight? No, she doesn't. 

It doesn't say A has Hachibi's chakra, it said his chakra levels are spiked up and comparable to a Bijuu. But, where does it say Tsunade _doesn't_ have Bijuu chakra levels? It doesn't. Tsunade is a Uzumaki/Senju hybrid (or one of the other), so she has exceptional chakra. Judging based off manga feats, who performed better, and showed better stamina against Madara? Tsunade, manga fact.

Speaking of Kakuzu not dying and questioning his survival is pointless. We know why anyways.

You're using Kakuzu as an example. Fail, as we already know he has 5 hearts. Haku did get _pierced_ in his heart, but I assure you, getting it ripped out of your chest is a completely different story. Besides, at the end of the day, Haku did die, correct? Even if she doesn't die straight away, which she will, she'll be wayyy too weak to use chakra, and her chakra system will completely shut down.


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> @Synn
> 
> I ask for speed feats from Mei, and you show me against Zetsu? Pffft.



If you bothered reading the pages I provided, you'd know they are feats from Mei and not Zetsu.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> If you bothered reading the pages I provided, you'd know they are feats from Mei and not Zetsu.



Yeah, which is why I said *against* Zetsu.


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Yeah, which is why I said *against* Zetsu.



Mei never fought against Kakuzu, what am I supposed to show you exactly?


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> Mei never fought against Kakuzu, what am I supposed to show you exactly?



I dunno, something which doesn't include a spore of the biggest fodder in the NV. Zetsu, seriously? Chouji would blitz Zetsu...


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I dunno, something which doesn't include a spore of the biggest fodder in the NV. Zetsu, seriously? Chouji would blitz Zetsu...



White Zetsu is fodder, not his black half.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> White Zetsu is fodder, not his black half.



Which happens to be the very creature Mei kicked


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Which happens to be the very creature Mei kicked



So? Tsunade also kicked Madara and last time I checked, he's far from being fodder.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> @Synn
> 
> I ask for speed feats from Mei, and you show me against Zetsu? Pffft.
> 
> ...



Like I said, I'm personally not buying that Shizune suddenly lost all her ability to react because she got scared of something she got herself into. But I won't argue this further.

But the only Bijuu they have for a comparison is the Hachibi, so for Ay's chakra to have been comparable to a Bijuu in their eyes it would have to be comparable to the Hachibi's.
I guess I personally wouldn't be surprised if she (and the other Sannin) had chakra levels at least comparable to Shukaku, but. . .the gap between how much chakra the Bijuu have seems to be enormous.

My main point is that they didn't find it suspicious. If it would have normally killed someone right away they would have been like "whoa wtf is going on" like Kotetsu and Izumo were with Hidan.
Kakashi's Raikiri is bigger than Haku's heart, it didn't just get pierced- it exploded. The point is that it took long enough for them to die that if Tsunade had taken the same injury, her regeneration would have kicked in in time to save her.

Her regeneration chakra reserves come from her forehead seal, not her heart. If you destroy the source of chakra that isn't being used for regenerating. . .it won't stop her from regenerating.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> So? Tsunade also kicked Madara and last time I checked, he's far from being fodder.



Where are you trying to go with this? Hitting someone doesn't mean you've "blitzed" them. I asked to see some of Mei's notable, or if any, speed feats. You come to me with a scan of her kicking White Zetsu  By surprise, no less.


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## Synn (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Where are you trying to go with this? Hitting someone doesn't mean you've "blitzed" them. I asked to see some of Mei's notable, or if any, speed feats. You come to me with a scan of her kicking White Zetsu  By surprise, no less.



Dude, when did I ever say anything about blitzing? Do you even bother reading people's posts, before you make assumptions and put words in their mouth? Try to pay attention!

What I _did_ say in  is that Zetsu being a sensor, he could've easily sensed Mei and the other ninjas that were with her. You say he was caught off guard? The obvious thing to do here would be to scout the area and search for potential threats, which I'm sure he did... We have no reasons to believe otherwise. However, Mei was fast enough to run towards him and kick him back, without Zetsu having time to react to her incoming attack.

How is that not a _speed_ feat? Do people really think that anything that involve physical contact is automatically a taijutsu feat?! Omg, people these days.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 22, 2013)

Synn said:


> Dude, when did I ever say anything about blitzing? Do you even bother reading people's posts, before you make assumptions and put words in their mouth? Try to pay attention!
> 
> What I _did_ say in  is that Zetsu being a sensor, he could've easily sensed Mei and the other ninjas that were with her. You say he was caught off guard? The obvious thing to do here would be to scout the area and search for potential threats, which I'm sure he did... We have no reasons to believe otherwise. However, Mei was fast enough to run towards him and kick him back, without Zetsu having time to react to her incoming attack.
> 
> How is that not a _speed_ feat? Do people really think that anything that involve physical contact is automatically a taijutsu feat?! Omg, people these days.



I don't care about your conversation with other members. I'm not gonna sit here, and read everything you wrote. Only if it's directed at me. We're discussing Mei's speed right about now, so yeah.

Again, just your assumption. A 1/10,000 Zetsu clone tries to assassinate the Feudal lords, and Mei comes to their aid, big whoop. Do you have evidence he scouted the area? Even if he did, what good is that gonna do him? He's mid-air, so dodging isn't an option, and Zetsu hasn't shown any notable speed feats either.

The fact that Mei's only so called "speed feat" is kicking the biggest fodder in mid air, is just not good enough, to try and claim she's quick, or in your case, not slow.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 22, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I don't care about your conversation with other members. I'm not gonna sit here, and read everything you wrote. Only if it's directed at me. We're discussing Mei's speed right about now, so yeah.
> 
> Again, just your assumption. A 1/10,000 Zetsu clone tries to assassinate the Feudal lords, and Mei comes to their aid, big whoop. Do you have evidence he scouted the area? Even if he did, what good is that gonna do him? He's mid-air, so dodging isn't an option, and Zetsu hasn't shown any notable speed feats either.
> 
> The fact that Mei's only so called "speed feat" is kicking the biggest fodder in mid air, is just not good enough, to try and claim she's quick, or in your case, not slow.



I think you're kind of missing the point. Synn is saying that as a sensor, Zetsu should have been able to sense her coming before she kicked him?

Jutsu execution wise, she is quick too. Remember how she countered Madara's first Katon? How her lava was able to coordinate attacks with V1 A? Or how she blocked Sasuke from leaving the Kage Summit even though he was right at the exit with her lava before he left?

Black Zetsu is not white Zetsu by the way.

And I get the feeling you're trying to debate this because you have no answer to the fact that NONE of the other Kage could react before Tsunade, not just Mei.


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## Synn (Apr 23, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> Again, just your assumption. A 1/10,000 Zetsu clone tries to assassinate the Feudal lords, and Mei comes to their aid, big whoop. Do you have evidence he scouted the area? Even if he did, what good is that gonna do him? He's mid-air, so dodging isn't an option, and Zetsu hasn't shown any notable speed feats either.



Don't want to sound disrespectful or anything, but if you think Black Zetsu is a "1/10,000 Zetsu clone", then your reading comprehension skills are even worse than I thought. 

Black Zetsu =/= White Zetsu

What good is scouting the area for a sensor?  In't that beyond obvious? While I agree it is hard to dodge in mid-air, he could've sensed them and delayed his attack or at least plan it out differently. Like I said, Black Zetsu is an analytical type of guy, not one who would jump in carelessly, especially when Obito claimed that he isn't a good fighter.

Now keeping that in mind, try to see the bigger picture here. 



narut0ninjafan said:


> I think you're kind of missing the point. Synn is saying that as a sensor, Zetsu should have been able to sense her coming before she kicked him?
> 
> Jutsu execution wise, she is quick too. Remember how she countered Madara's first Katon? How her lava was able to coordinate attacks with V1 A? Or how she blocked Sasuke from leaving the Kage Summit even though he was right at the exit with her lava before he left?
> 
> ...



Thanks for helping me out with this one, he's obviously not getting my point and I can't be any clearer than that.


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 24, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> A bipedal susano'o clone was able to _get behind Ei and grab him_ in the brief moment he was distracted by Tsunade. This is the same man who could evade point blank chakra blasts and Amaterasus at the very last moment.



You answered your own "question" though: "*distracted*".

Again, a story telling element.  Raikage was distracted.  That's a very big key word you seem to not put any emphasis on.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Wasn't Chouji was able to _crush one_? And Tenten managed to hit one with her Banana Fan. They aren't that fast, and its not like Tsunade's going to be overwhelmed given that she has a summon who can divide into literally _thousands_ of divisions. If anyone is going to be overwhelmed its more likely to be Kakuzu.[/indent][/justify]



I should probably concede here, not b/c of those feats, but b/c i don't recognize those feats as they were fodderized.  (similarly, I don't recognize the masks as capable of flight as that was also in the war).

My primary reason is that from way way back in the late 90's/early 2000's, we got so much hype for the 7-swordsmen.  And throughout all of part 1 and part 2, we kept getting it due to people like zabuza, suigetsu, kisame, etc.

Then when kishi finally reveals them what do we get?  An awesome definitely developed fight?  No, they get fodderized in less panels than the comic relief characters are given.

Everyone outside of the obvious battles that kishi's editors were rushing him to, was fodderized due to time constraints.  Kankuro is NOT deidara/sasori level i'm sorry, he's not akatsuki level.

Kishi brought a ton of fodders back to life to give a truer sense of a larger war, rather than only bringing back the key players.  This obviously does make the war feel larger, but at the same time, it nerfs all of those enemies (since it is a shonen manga, and hero deaths are far and few between).

And concerning your thousands of katsuyu's: who is one of the best characters at a bunch of stuff?  I'd think one of the few aoe kings (atsugai, zukkoku).  The full katsuyu can probably take a few hits, but the small versions won't survive given that atsugai has killed other shinobi (I doubt the small katsuyus can survive an attack that kills a full ninja; especially since he can spam those attacks).


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## KakuzuForever (Apr 24, 2013)

*Examples of speed feats:*  (Concerning Tsunade, Mei and Kakuzu)
Kakashi kid, along with some blatant, albeit subjective, comment towards his speed.

And if you want the real testament to kakashi's brilliance (before sharingan), take it from the unchallenged #1 speedster of the Naruto-verse to say you have speed:  Minato HIMSELF (that and power).

*For those of you that read it too fast, I'll reiterate it for emphasis:  "Of course you have the....speed", and "Because the speed of your movements are so fast".*

Obviously that was when kakashi was a noob kid, so he's faster now, but you get the idea.  Kishi has ways to show people have speed, "surprise attacks" are NOT speed feats, they are "surprise attacks" for God's sake.  (Again insert scans of kakuzu's surprise attack, mei's surprise attack, etc; these aren't speed emphasized feats, they are dramatic hits via surprise attacks).

Other ACTUAL speed feats:

Lee's many speed feats:
vs gaara (note Kakashi's thoughts of....can you guess? That's right, speed).  I won't show the rest b/c you all know Lee's non-gated and of course gated forms have DEFINITE speed.  Via lots of comments/thoughts from spectators about it, and dashed lines, broken walls/floors, sonic shockwaves, etc, etc, etc.​
Sasuke to naruto initially here, and then seen to be shoulder to shoulder (note Yamato's statement of sasuke's speed).

Another sasuke speed feat (1 and 2); and notice it is drawn with a blitz style.

Sasuke to deidara (starting here, then shown here WITH commentary on said speed)

Raikage dodging amaterasu (note how he wasn't distracted).


Naruto in KCM (note comments on speed despite their confusion of FTG tech, since it was naruto's raw speed as he didn't have the FTG to teleport to).

Both naruto and raikage with speed markings drawn into the panels (and again, even a note on speed)

 And many more that I don't have the time to find and link (or even remember).

These are actual speed feat examples.  Not the inferred speed feats that people try to use but wasn't meant as actual speed feats due to lack in affects (speed lines/fx, sonic booms, instant disappearances from one frame into the next, literal comments from another about their speed, on and on and on).  

Kakuzu, Mei, and Tsunade, are NOT speedster tier people.  They are average speed tier because they have had no feats similar to examples linked above that are Kishi's way of showing speed (refer to my last post on why Tsunade's katon blocks are not strong speed feats, and combine it with the lack of representative speed drawn symbols/dashes/etc; kishi was somewhat lazy in how he gave tsunade an opportunity to get hurt again to reveal byakugou's end, but at least he mostly kept it within her character).​
*Sensor Issue* (Concerning Mei and Zetsu)
Yes, i agree that zetsu has sensor ability, and should have scoped the place out, and probably to a very far degree as he's probably really high tier on sensor abilities given his general repertoire really lends himself to it, but the problem is, this inference is producing feats for another character which conflict directly with what we've been shown.

So to put it into some perspective, let's try to set out a scenario.  Zetsu does scope the place out in a full circle around the temple to say 5 meters (and for other scenarios, 10m, 50m, 100m, 500m, 1000m).

Options at this point are:
1. Zetsu does sense her but chooses to go for a quick strike to the lords (noone's assumption i don't think; so i won't bother with this one, as he didn't give any indication that suggests this)
2. Zetsu doesn't sense her​
So assuming zetsu doesn't sense her, we have Mei required to attack from her concealed position, which is out of range from his search/sensor feel.

This will mean that mei will have to cover 5, 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000m within how long?

Given that zetsu didn't react with an exclamation point or anything indicating that he saw her coming until her foot was in his belly, we are lead to assume she covered the distance faster than he could sense.

Covering 5 meters is easily understadable as a chuunin can probably do that to a zetsu.  10 meters is more impressive for sure, but we don't know how fast zetsu's sensor ability pings.  But it doesn't matter since these initial values were to give a value that does guarantee Mei a distance where she can hit him without him sensing her first (ie. making it a definite surprise attack).

Given that he was able to sense Naruto+bee in a non-concealed area, it's pretty safe to say that he can sense someone at a greater distance than just 5 or 10 meters (most likely more than that, but i'm pretty sure you can agree that zetsu was definitely more than a 32-ish feet away from naruto and bee in that scan.

If anything, Zetsu's sensor ability should at least rival SM naruto and his village size'd sensor range.  Zetsu is afterall specialized in reconnaissance type abilities.

*But now here's the clincher (for those that didn't already catch it),* do you know which Zetsu was the one that actually sensed Naruto+Bee?  That's right, it was none other than the one about to fight Mei (it was the very next page).

Now I'm pretty sure the feudal lords aren't just around the corner in their temple next to the Giant Island turtle.  Remember, the turtle was in the middle of the sea and required flight to get to it (deidara's bird) (another view of it being deep at sea, and a view of how far out they are).

To blow it further out of proportions (and this is probably going too far, but why not), this is the rough location of everything.  Key things to note include where the turtle is (and remember how far it is from the mainland scan, as this map is in the same chapter), and where the possible Daimyo's are (remember, they were to be funnelled from  location to location, and it's doubtful that ALL of those locations were immediately within the "joint army" area; since that would be putting all your eggs in one basket so to speak).

Even given that the map is probably not to scale, that would give zetsu's sensor range #1 in the naruto-verse, given that his range is in miles minimum (hundreds of miles tops though).

In other words, there is a lot saying that Zetsu would have been able to sense Mei no matter where around the daimyo temple she was (b/c she isn't rushing zetsu from a full 1-mile away without minato's tech-assist).

So now where are we?

*Options:*
1. Kishi f'd up on zetsu's sensor ability details, b/c his goal was just the surprise attack
2. Mei (and the others) concealed themselves from detection b/c it's part of the job for protecting​

*Both can be correct, sorta*
#1 If you recognize that kishi f'd up many other things in the manga b/c he's only human, and can't be expected to keep track of every character's details 100% day and night
or​#2 If you can care less about occam's razor and need an explanation no matter what despite Mei having ZERO concealment/assassination type attacks&tactics like say Zabuza or Kakashi (silent killing and raikiri, etc), and the fact that it is against a definite expert sensor (Zetsu is like a "watcher" of sorts).​
*Similar to many of my other responses to people saying Mei has speed feats, they seem to have common themes involving missing the elements of story writing (and signs of bad writing).*

Mei's hit on Zetsu is NOT a speed feat, it was a surprise attack, meant for surprise.  Assuming she had to cover a lot of distance to hit him before he noticed is EXACTLY the same flawed logic due to missing the point that people make when trying to prove that Kakuzu has speed feats b/c he overtook and kicked kakashi.


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## Jad (Apr 24, 2013)

KakuzuForever laying on the smack down of the century - I didn't even read it.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 24, 2013)

KakuzuForever showed them wag1. Mei's kick weren't no speed feat


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## joshhookway (Apr 24, 2013)

KakuzuForever is destroying this debate.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 26, 2013)

@KakuzuForever

I'm afraid it looks like your reasons for discrediting Tsunade and Mei's speed feats hinge a lot off the fact that "it was for plot reasons." I would have to argue that using that argument is quite flawed since everything happens for plot reasons, so if you want to go down that route, there's not really much room for any debate on characters. We take the feats we infer from the manga use them to debate on who wins a fight. It's a little unfair to strip characters of all their speed feats just because you believe it was due to plot.


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## PopoTime (Apr 26, 2013)

ITT Speed feats are for plot reasons?


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 26, 2013)

No, ITT dramatic interceptions are being misinterpreted as remarkable feats of speed!


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> No, ITT dramatic interceptions are being misinterpreted as remarkable feats of speed!



So Minato catching baby Naruto before he fell, Minato dodging V2 A's punch at the last second and V2 A dodging Amaterasu at the last second are therefore also not speed feats, using your own logic. What feats do we have that we can discuss then in debate, if we use your logic? 

By your faulty logic, the only thing we can go on is hype, which is kind of silly when we have feats. And considering you're a Tsunade hater your own logic is only hurting you since if we go by your logic and use hype only, Tsunade's hype is on a other level to Kakuzu's.


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## Rocky (Apr 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> @KakuzuForever
> 
> I'm afraid it looks like your reasons for discrediting Tsunade and Mei's speed feats hinge a lot off the fact that "it was for plot reasons." I would have to argue that using that argument is quite flawed since everything happens for plot reasons, so if you want to go down that route, there's not really much room for any debate on characters. We take the feats we infer from the manga use them to debate on who wins a fight. It's a little unfair to strip characters of all their speed feats just because you believe it was due to plot.​




No, he showed you various other examples of "speed feats" in the Manga and then explained why Mei's kick wasn't. It was a surprise attack. Even the Toad sensors were fooled by Pain's surprise attack with Shurado. That doesn't automatically mean that Asura is fast enough to bypass Jiraiya's sensing abilities, get behind him, and strike before he can react, it just means Jiraiya, Fukasaku, & Shima were surprised.​


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## Axiom (Apr 27, 2013)

It's not hard to tell which feats are legit and which are for plot reasons if you look at each situation objectively.  Ei and Minato have been portrayed to have levels of speed high enough to accomplish everything you just listed--it's nothing less than what one would expect.  But then you have garbage feats that can be thrown away as purely for plot such as

Part 1 Base Sasuke soloing 6 Zabuza water clones
Sakura managing to perfectly nail Naruto to a tree with a kunai from a decent distance back in the Forest of Death
Kakuzu managing to completely overtake Kakashi in speed from behind and kick him
And Tsunade matching speed perfectly with Base Ei

Actually, KakuzuForever already addressed all of this.  Didn't you read the part of his about characters with speed feats that were actually intended to show speed?  All it takes is some basic reading comprehension to understand that Kishi didn't intend to portray Kakuzu as a speedster when he surprise kicked Kakashi or Tsunade as a speedster when he made her synchronize attacks with Base Ei.

Half of his entire post was about showing speed feats that are actually intended to show speed--ones that involve characters commenting on the subject's speed, or little speed marks being drawn, or even, in the case of Sasori's Satetsu Shigure, taking the time to draw a panel that explicitly showed it breaking the sound barrier.

So no, you can't throw out every feat ever and attribute it to plot.  You can only throw out feats which are invalid because A)they weren't intended to show what it is that they did show and B)they completely go against how a character has been portrayed.


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## Genma1998 (Apr 27, 2013)

Kakuzu should have no problem taking her out imo


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

What I stated is still true. A didn't have to dodge Amaterasu at the last minute, Minato didn't have to warp away at the last minute, it was done for dramatic effect, just like the speed feats some of you are trying to discredit.

You can't just pick and throw out feats and claim they were for plot reasons. If we go by everything having to be stated clearly before it holds merit, there's nothing to discuss. Discarding these feats as being due to plot just because you don't want to accept them is stupid. It's not a consistent argument and leaves nothing to discuss. The whole point is to debate match ups using feats that the characters involved have shown. To simply remove some of these feats because you don't want to believe they are legitimate because they were due to plot (when everything is down to plot) is unfair and only makes you look like you don't actually believe Kakuzu can win.

Even using this very flawed line of reasoning, Tsunade should still stomp (since if you want to go by things being commented on, Tsunade has clearly stated she can't die in battle).

Tsunade wins, I think she showed against Madara she's on a different level to Kakuzu.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 27, 2013)

_Doton Domu_ allowed Kakuzu to flat out fodder tank Nanibi's paw flattening him with no damage..... Tsunade is not punching a hole through him, ever 

Even assuming him he charges in with CqC without _Doton Domu_ as they have zero knowledge, we have no idea how Tsunade's power will effect _Jiongu_... as Kakuzu's body doesn't have organs/bones to rupture or break


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## joshhookway (Apr 27, 2013)

Keep in mind that Kakuzu is hard as diamond.


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> _Doton Domu_ allowed Kakuzu to flat out fodder tank Nanibi's paw flattening him with no damage..... Tsunade is not punching a hole through him, ever



Because a paw with no other feats is FAR greater than a Susanoo busting punch. 



> Even assuming him he charges in with CqC without _Doton Domu_ as they have zero knowledge, we have no idea how Tsunade's power will effect _Jiongu_... as Kakuzu's body doesn't have organs/bones to rupture or break



She could blow apart Kakuzu's entire right side as she did with Madara. Considering his anatomy and the position of his hearts in his body that shit could potentially kill up to 3 of his hearts.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> I think you're kind of missing the point. Synn is saying that as a sensor, Zetsu should have been able to sense her coming before she kicked him?
> 
> Jutsu execution wise, she is quick too. Remember how she countered Madara's first Katon? How her lava was able to coordinate attacks with V1 A? Or how she blocked Sasuke from leaving the Kage Summit even though he was right at the exit with her lava before he left?
> 
> ...



I didn't even see this, what the heck.

Alright, please tell me what yours and his point is? Zetsu "should of sensed her". Even if he did, was he cautious about her, did he hold back because he sensed a presence around him? No, he went in there like he never even noticed. Mei just intercepted with a kick. If Zetsu knew someone was around, do you think it would of went down like that?

I know she's quick at executing jutsu. That doesn't equate to foot speed.

I know.

I already told you why in previous posts...


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## Axiom (Apr 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> What I stated is still true. A didn't have to dodge Amaterasu at the last minute, Minato didn't have to warp away at the last minute, it was done for dramatic effect, just like the speed feats some of you are trying to discredit.
> 
> You can't just pick and throw out feats and claim they were for plot reasons. If we go by everything having to be stated clearly before it holds merit, there's nothing to discuss. Discarding these feats as being due to plot just because you don't want to accept them is stupid. It's not a consistent argument and leaves nothing to discuss. The whole point is to debate match ups using feats that the characters involved have shown. To simply remove some of these feats because you don't want to believe they are legitimate because they were due to plot (when everything is down to plot) is unfair and only makes you look like you don't actually believe Kakuzu can win.
> 
> ...



You're misinterpreting the argument so badly it's painful.  Not a fucking person other than you is suggesting that you should ONLY listen to hype and that ALL hype is true.  You didn't see KakuzuForever spewing bullshit about Kakuzu's statement that "No physical attack will work on me," even though that entirely counters Tsunade's fighting style.  If you think using basic reading skills and information given to us to infer that Tsunade is, in fact, not as fast as Base Ei means that we completely disregard feats and only use hype in making our arguments...  then fuck, I don't even know what to tell you.  Wow.

I mean, evidently you think that we should take every feat in the entire god damn manga at face value and that is entirely ridiculous.  I'm not going to bother explaining why it's ridiculous because there are so many instances in the manga that make the ridiculousness painfully obvious.  Tsunade arriving at the edo's at the same time as Base Ei is one of those instances.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Because a paw with no other feats is FAR greater than a Susanoo busting punch.



By that logic, SM Naruto or Kurama can't bust a ribcage _Sasuno'o_ seeing they haven't shown that "feat" yet logic dictates other wise

Kakuzu took a shot that exceeded Ei's _Liger Bomb_ (an attack that can crack ribcage _Sasuno'o_)..... with ZERO damage, Tsunade is not one shotting him. 

Oh... and this is discounting his anatomical differences thanks to _Jiongu_




narut0ninjafan said:


> She could blow apart Kakuzu's entire right side as she did with Madara. Considering his anatomy and the position of his hearts in his body that shit could potentially kill up to 3 of his hearts.



Madara is a human who has bones and organs, Kakuzu is ragdoll made of flexible tendrils who laughed off having his midsection literally cut into pieces

You cannot compare the two's bodies no matter how much you try or want


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

Minato Namikaze said:


> I didn't even see this, what the heck.
> 
> Alright, please tell me what yours and his point is? Zetsu "should of sensed her". Even if he did, was he cautious about her, did he hold back because he sensed a presence around him? No, he went in there like he never even noticed. Mei just intercepted with a kick. If Zetsu knew someone was around, do you think it would of went down like that?
> 
> ...



He didn't react to her kick. Surely he should have been able to at least try to react. That's all I'm saying.



Axiom said:


> You're misinterpreting the argument so badly it's painful.  Not a fucking person other than you is suggesting that you should ONLY listen to hype and that ALL hype is true.  You didn't see KakuzuForever spewing bullshit about Kakuzu's statement that "No physical attack will work on me," even though that entirely counters Tsunade's fighting style.  If you think using basic reading skills and information given to us to infer that Tsunade is, in fact, not as fast as Base Ei means that we completely disregard feats and only use hype in making our arguments...  then fuck, I don't even know what to tell you.  Wow.



What the fuck? You can't expect me to take this shit seriously if you're trying to sell Base A being faster than Tsunade based purely on hype, despite you saying you shouldn't only look at hype. 

The argument made was that feats don't count unless they are hyped up by an explicit statment. That sounds a lot like you should take hype over feats. That's stupid. 



> I mean, evidently you think that we should take every feat in the entire god damn manga at face value and that is entirely ridiculous.  I'm not going to bother explaining why it's ridiculous because there are so many instances in the manga that make the ridiculousness painfully obvious.  Tsunade arriving at the edo's at the same time as Base Ei is one of those instances.



No. Since Tsunade has shown more speed and more impressive feats than Kakuzu, suddenly her feats are for plot reasons? What the fuck? 

I can guarantee if it was the other way around, you and KakuzuForever would be using the fact he has speed feats. Of course you take feats seriously, this is a debate where we base our arguments primarily off of feats. You don't pick and choose which ones don't count because the character you like more doesn't have the feats to compete with their opponent.



Joakim3 said:


> By that logic, SM Naruto or Kurama can't bust a ribcage _Sasuno'o_ seeing they haven't shown that "feat" yet logic dictates other wise



From what logic are you assuming Nibi's paw can break Susanoo?



> Kakuzu took a shot that exceeded Ei's _Liger Bomb_ (an attack that can crack ribcage _Sasuno'o_)..... with ZERO damage, Tsunade is not one shotting him.
> 
> Oh... and this is discounting his anatomical differences thanks to _Jiongu_
> 
> ...



I don't see how tendrils are immune from being blown apart.


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## Axiom (Apr 27, 2013)

You are truly unbelievable.  My fucking lord.

Again, nobody is only considering hype or only considering feats other than you.  We're considering _*everything*_ that has been presented to us to come to a logical conclusion--that Tsunade is not as fast as Ei.  We've seen how Kishi shows speed, we've seen him hype Ei, we've seen base Ei's speed, and we've seen Tsunade's speed.  Using ALL OF THAT INFORMATION, it's easy to conclude that Base Ei is faster than Tsunade.  If you think otherwise, you're not looking at the situation objectively.

And, as to your second response...  I don't know, did you even fucking read KakuzuForever's posts?  He (and I have as well) clearly discarded Kakuzu's feat of completely overtaking Kakashi in speed as garbage.

Why?  Because we think that Kakuzu's feats don't stand up to Tsunade's?

Obviously fucking not.  It's because, using the information that has been presented to us all throughout the manga, it's apparent that Kakuzu _is not faster than Kakashi and was never intentionally portrayed as such._  It's the same goddamn thing with Ei and Tsunade.  How you're unable to understand this is beyond me.  Do you just choose to pretend to not understand because you like Tsunade or do you legitimately think Tsunade's speed is on the same level as Ei's?

I sincerely hope, for your sake, it's the former.

EDIT:  Actually, I found the perfect scan to illustrate my point--that being, you can't just take every feat at face value.

(1)

Look at the bottom panel right there.  What's going on?  V1 Ei and Darui arrived at Sasuke and Juugo at the same time.

Now, with this, there are two possible conclusions you can draw.

1.  V1 Ei and Darui are on the same level of speed.  This is the conclusion you're drawing with Base Ei and Tsunade.

2.  Kishi drew them arriving at the same time because it would have been fucking stupid to have Ei arrive seconds before Darui did.  It would have not only looked stupid, it also would have prevented Suigetsu from joining the battle in a logical manner.

So tell me, do you think Darui is as fast as V1 Ei, or do you think Kishi only made them arrive at the same time for plot reasons?

If you think the second, ask yourself, why can't this apply to Tsunade as well?  Think hard about that.

If you think the first...


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## Joakim3 (Apr 27, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> From what logic are you assuming Nibi's paw can break Susanoo?



Um yes.... when an attack with virtually identical mechanics and less power achieved such 

its something called physics 



narut0ninjafan said:


> I don't see how tendrils are immune from being blown apart.



Because they are malleable and can bend...... unlike a Madara's human ribcage


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 27, 2013)

@narut0ninjafan

except , Mei wasn't his target, nor was she on Zetsu's mind. The feudal lords were the targets


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

Axiom said:


> You are truly unbelievable.  My fucking lord.
> 
> Again, nobody is only considering hype or only considering feats other than you.  We're considering _*everything*_ that has been presented to us to come to a logical conclusion--that Tsunade is not as fast as Ei.  We've seen how Kishi shows speed, we've seen him hype Ei, we've seen base Ei's speed, and we've seen Tsunade's speed.  Using ALL OF THAT INFORMATION, it's easy to conclude that Base Ei is faster than Tsunade.  If you think otherwise, you're not looking at the situation objectively.



What the fuck does that have to do with the matchup? Feats, hype and general portrayal wise Tsunade has shown herself to be Kakuzu's superior. And Tsunade reacted to Katons before any other Kage, but let me guess, it was for dramatic effect? 

Speed ADDS dramatic effect to the manga, it's the speed that creates the drama. So no, you can't discount feats based off that.



> And, as to your second response...  I don't know, did you even fucking read KakuzuForever's posts?  He (and I have as well) clearly discarded Kakuzu's feat of completely overtaking Kakashi in speed as garbage.
> 
> Why?  Because we think that Kakuzu's feats don't stand up to Tsunade's?
> 
> ...



When have I ever said she's on the same level? She can keep up, and it's possible she is faster than Base A given her FEATS.



> EDIT:  Actually, I found the perfect scan to illustrate my point--that being, you can't just take every feat at face value.
> 
> stabbing himself to die
> 
> ...



So keeping up with fast characters is not a feat anymore? Only characters explicitly stated in the manga to be fast are fast, and no one else is? 

In a debate about possible matchups, of course we use feats, we can't just choose the ones we don't like as being due to plot. 



Joakim3 said:


> Um yes.... when an attack with virtually identical mechanics and less power achieved such
> 
> its something called physics



What makes you think a paw strike with one showing is stronger than a punch from the strongest character in the manga? 

Arguing using physics in Naruto, and concerning Tsunade and Kakuzu is... rather flawed logic to say the least. 



> Because they are malleable and can bend...... unlike a Madara's human ribcage



Malleable things can still be blown apart. If they bend out of the way, they leave the hearts exposed.



Minato Namikaze said:


> @narut0ninjafan
> 
> except , Mei wasn't his target, nor was she on Zetsu's mind. The feudal lords were the targets



That doesn't excuse him from not reacting in time to the kick. 

I'm pretty sure he knew she was there, being a sensor.


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## Axiom (Apr 27, 2013)

So I take it you legitimately think Darui is as fast as V1 Ei.  That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.  Jesus Christ

My god, this conversation was never worth having.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 27, 2013)

@narut0ninjafan

Like I said earlier, *it's pretty darn hard to react to a kick, when you're in mid-air. How's he able to dodge in mid-air? Also, if you hadn't noticed, the feudal lords was the prime targets. Fact is, Zetsu didn't have time to stress over Mei's presence, he attacked his targets.*


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 27, 2013)

Axiom said:


> So I take it you legitimately think Darui is as fast as V1 Ei.  That has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.  Jesus Christ
> 
> My god, this conversation was never worth having.



So keeping up is the same as being exactly as fast? Jugo and Suigetsu reacted in time to block both attacks too. It may sound silly to you, but you need to get off your high horse - they are legitimate feats. If you don't like it you can ignore the feats like you are now, but this isn't the place to ignore the feats when we're discussing matchups. 



Minato Namikaze said:


> @narut0ninjafan
> 
> Like I said earlier, *it's pretty darn hard to react to a kick, when you're in mid-air. How's he able to dodge in mid-air? Also, if you hadn't noticed, the feudal lords was the prime targets. Fact is, Zetsu didn't have time to stress over Mei's presence, he attacked his targets.*



He could try to block. React doesn't strictly mean dodge. 

He likely charged at them, thinking Mei and the guards wouldn't be able to intercept him fast enough.


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## Bonly Jr. (Apr 27, 2013)

@narut0ninjafan



His main focus was on taking out the feudal lords, by him trying to block Mei's kick, he's throwing that chance straight out the window...


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> By that logic, SM Naruto or Kurama can't bust a ribcage _Sasuno'o_ seeing they haven't shown that "feat" yet logic dictates other wise
> 
> Kakuzu took a shot that exceeded Ei's _Liger Bomb_ (an attack that can crack ribcage _Sasuno'o_)..... with ZERO damage, Tsunade is not one shotting him.
> 
> Oh... and this is discounting his anatomical differences thanks to _Jiongu_



With a punch? Why would SM Naruto be able to bust ribcage Susano with a punch when we saw it tank Cho Odama Rasengan?

And where are you getting that the Nibi's paw strike exceeds this punched ? 

Kakuzu tanked a shot weaker than an attack that only _cracked_ an inferior Susanno to the one Tsunade _busted open_ with a kick.

Doton: Domu isn't saving Kakuzu here.


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## Rocky (Apr 27, 2013)

I don't think the ribcage ever tanked COR.


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## raizen28 (Apr 27, 2013)

Tsunade's is going to be on her toes districted long enough till she srops. Healing Herself Obviously takes a toll and she's no good when she fights opponents that can Continually Force her to drain herself till shes weak or old.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2013)

@ Rocky: It does so here, before Madara attacks.

punched

Should also be noted that Naruto attacked from above, which allows him to maximize the force he pits against Susanno since the ground prevents it from going anywhere. Unlike Tsunade's initial punch where some of the force was lost thanks to it simply being sent into the air; when Onoki+Raikage were behind Susano they prevented it from flying backwards, and Tsunade's kick was able to bust open the entire side that time.


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## raizen28 (Apr 27, 2013)

Did COR really Explode and show  Penetration effects or was that just the force of its impact upon coming from above.
Its more like Susanoo Repel it or something. The Tip didnt Penetrate all through so thats why you still see a Big Rasengan upon impact that stayed the same and didnt explode or nothin

I dont freakin know


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## Rocky (Apr 27, 2013)

Ah I stand corrected.


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## Mithos (Apr 29, 2013)

raizen28 said:


> Tsunade's is going to be on her toes districted long enough till she srops. Healing Herself Obviously takes a toll and she's no good when she fights opponents that can Continually Force her to drain herself till shes weak or old.



She was fighting 5 Susano'o clones at once for a while and smacking them around. If she can dodge and tank her way through the clones and smash them without exhausting herself, I fail to see how she can't do the same to Kakuzu and his hearts - especially with the offensive and defensive support of Katsuyu.


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## Jad (Apr 29, 2013)

Matto-sama said:


> She was fighting 5 Susano'o clones at once for a while and smacking them around. If she can dodge and tank her way through the clones and smash them without exhausting herself, I fail to see how she can't do the same to Kakuzu and his hearts - especially with the offensive and defensive support of Katsuyu.



She hit one Sasunoo clone.


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## Guybot2 (Apr 30, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Keep in mind that Kakuzu is hard as diamond.



Tsunade split the ground in half with one Finger.... what make you think she cant break diamonds.. LOL :amazed


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## ueharakk (Apr 30, 2013)

Guybot2 said:


> Tsunade split the ground in half with one Finger.... what make you think she cant break diamonds.. LOL :amazed



only her point of contact is one finger.  When she splits the ground she uses the force of a full arm swing.

but yeah, she should be able to damage domu kakuzu.


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## bleakwinter (Apr 30, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Keep in mind that Kakuzu is hard as diamond.



Diamonds are _hard_, not _tough_. Give me a hammer and I can break any diamond . Besides, I believe that statement was made in the databook, which is notorious for making some rather outlandish statements (Such as Tsunade cannot die with her Yin Seal active). We know Doton: Domu is very tough, but probably not more-so than Susanoo, something Tsunade can damage with ease.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 30, 2013)

Why are we talking about speed feats when Kakuzu isn't notably fast?  His kick on Kakashi isn't even accepted by Kakuzu4ever, and he's constantly reacted to and chased by not fast characters.  Even in full retreat mode he didn't put any distance between himself and Izumo and Kotetsu, and Wind Training Naruto's kagebunshin could close distance on him.

Katon and futon and Katon/futon combo don't have any worthwhile knock back, as evidenced by Hidan taking them head on during his combos with Kakuzu, and not getting blown across the field.  In fact, he took the futon head on, and then joined Kakuzu's side immediately afterwards for the next combo.  Then he popped out of the katon/futon combo to attack Kakashi.  So did Kakuzu. 

His body also wasn't torn apart or incinerated, and immortality aside, he's not a tank.  So with byako and her holding together after being teleported, Tsunade doesn't need to dodge those.  She can just run through the flames.

The only one she might not want to get hit by is Gian bolts.  Only Gian bolts got reacted to by of no

For those of you who don't get what I'm talking about, Shikamaru pulled out that scroll to ready a defence, and Choji put his hands up.  Whether you go by databook or common sense, Tsunade is way above either of them in reactions and speed, and with this being the only attack she has to pay attention to, she should be able to handle it.

Then we have domu, which is his IC response to attack like exploding tags, or physical assaults like Choji's meat tank, but Tsunade smashes the hell out of that.  Base Madara can block Ei's blows with his arms, and Ei's blows can break up Sasuke's .  But Tsunade's punch on Madara blew out his entire midsection.  

Since Mokubunshin are special, and are made with the cells of the user, and take on the durability of the user, or at least something close to it, busting a guy who can take Ei punches to dust is ridiculous.  Kakuzu will lose not just his heart, but the cavity where he stores his masks and hearts when she hits him.  

If Kakuzu already had some masks out, they're going to flip out and fly to him.  Only again we have those masks being squished by Immortal's arc  reactions and strength, while Tsunade can go full daka on Madara's multi-fireballs.  So they would die and not make it to Kakuzu's body shreds.

And if anyone thinks that this or this or going to completely immobilize Tsunade, you're kidding yourself.  A hand full of strings cannot lift a 50 ton tanto and spin it around the air like a toothpick.


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## wooly Eullerex (May 1, 2013)

*dem physics...*



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> And if anyone thinks that this or this or going to completely immobilize Tsunade, you're kidding yourself.  A hand full of strings cannot lift a 50 ton tanto and spin it around the air like a toothpick.



No, its not a joke. he can obviously lift her & when that happens her striking/lifting power becomes irrelevant as her leverage is lost.

And this is ignoring that he could just disembowel or decapitate her in the thread melee w/ tendrills or_ Gian_; he doesnt need to methodically restrain her before switching objectives/no pis ITT~his multitasking will win out imo.

So Tsunade has marginally more brute strength than domu kakuzu...Jiongo has exponentionally more mechanical strength than any basek 4-limbed opponent.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 1, 2013)

Domu Kakuzu can break Madara's Susano?


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