# Kisame & Itachi Vs. Jiraiya



## Kisame (Jun 7, 2010)

No restrictions

jiraiya is in HM

all are bloodlusted

sannin battlefield

50 meters


hmmm...i say its a stomp for the duo but...some ppl say they admit they were inferior to him in base so i just wanted to see how will that work in the Battledome


----------



## Pervy Fox (Jun 7, 2010)

Wow what the hell do you have against Jiraiya to make a rape thread?


----------



## DarkRasengan (Jun 7, 2010)

Start jiraiya in HM and its not an impossible fight for him to win, hes still got a big disadvantage tho.


----------



## Pervy Fox (Jun 7, 2010)

It was stated that both him and Itachi were equally skilled, adding Kisame would just be overkill.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 7, 2010)

All three of them die. Jiraiya in base is strong enough to fight them both, though if he gets into Sage Mode he wins. I'd like to see how Itachi and Kisame counter a Yomi Numa then Toad Food Court Crusher technique.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

to respond or not to respond to obvious baiting...

Nah. And you shouldn't either, SSM


----------



## Thunder (Jun 7, 2010)

Ridiculous thread.


----------



## Jinnobi (Jun 7, 2010)

Jiraiya is raped. 

Itachi is more powerful than Jiraiya. Debate after debate confirms - or you can just think for yourself and reach a similar conclusion- and only hardcore Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters maintain otherwise.

Kisame vs Jiraiya is up for questioning now, since Kisame seems extremely powerful and we haven't seen the full extent of his abilities.

Itachi and Kisame, no restrictions = Jiraiya lolstomped


----------



## Lord Potato (Jun 7, 2010)

What is this? Itachi solos, Kisame is not needed.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Jiraiya is raped.
> 
> Itachi is more powerful than Jiraiya. Debate after debate confirms - or you can just think for yourself and reach a similar conclusion- and only hardcore Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters maintain otherwise.
> 
> ...



Itachi said otherwise. Only Itachi fanboys think otherwise.

I can do this too. Given you think "Popular consent by Uchiha fans" is proof.

Kisame admitted Jiraiya was out of his league as well


----------



## Lord Raizen (Jun 7, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Jiraiya is raped.
> 
> Itachi is more powerful than Jiraiya. Debate after debate confirms - or you can just think for yourself and reach a similar conclusion- and only hardcore Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters maintain otherwise.
> 
> ...



So what you're saying is "Jiraiya looses because everyone that might think otherwise I say is wrong". Yeah. Great argument there.


----------



## Jinnobi (Jun 7, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi said otherwise.



Still ignoring context. I'm done talking about this with you.



> Kisame admitted Jiraiya was out of his league as well



Kishi didn't even plan on making Kisame a major character at that point in the manga - and besides, Kisame was basing that analysis off the Sannin reputation, not actual feats.



Lord Raizen said:


> So what you're saying is "Jiraiya looses because everyone that might think otherwise I say is wrong". Yeah. Great argument there.



I don't need an argument. It's already over. I'm just reporting the results.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Still ignoring context. I'm done talking about this with you.


I love how you bring up context when nothing suggests he was speaking anything but generally




> Kishi didn't even plan on making Kisame a major character at that point in the manga - and besides, Kisame was basing that analysis off the Sannin reputation, not actual feats.


Jiraiya's exploits are well known in the world, his abilities as well.
Kisame had seen Jiraiya and felt his power, given how Samehada can feel chakra. He admitted Jiraiya was out of his league. His partner is a Konoha ninja who grew up when Jiraiya was still part of the village and going on S-ranked missions, etc.
Kishi didn't 'intend' it then? Says who? Kishimoto has foreshadowed things a ton at times. At that point, he knew Kisame was a suiton using sharkman with enormous strength and a chakra eating sword that shaves people up. 
Proof of what you're saying? A statement?




> I don't need an argument. It's already over. I'm just reporting the results.


Translation: People agreed with me, I take that as proof I'm right.
That's kinda sad.


----------



## Aoshi (Jun 7, 2010)

Jinnobi said:


> Jiraiya is raped.
> 
> Itachi is more powerful than Jiraiya. Debate after debate confirms - or you can just think for yourself and reach a similar conclusion- and only hardcore Jiraiya fans/Itachi haters maintain otherwise.
> 
> ...



_Show me a thread where it has reached a conclusion that Itachi is stronger. 

You're almost as bad as Nikushimi... _


----------



## Thunder (Jun 7, 2010)

Garaiku said:


> why? sum ppl think he can win so...
> 
> anyway im new here so take it easy man



I realize that, but if this is a spite thread, my response remains the same. If not, you have my apologies.


----------



## clador (Jun 7, 2010)

kisame already *admit that base jiraiya >> kisame *

*just look how base jiraiya would have killed easely kisame in that jutsu hotel *
without amaterasu itachi and kisame would have been dead against just BASE jiraiyain that hotel

so if jiraiya begin in sennin mod he has a chance to beat them


----------



## Sanbi (Jun 7, 2010)

Jiraiya loses here. Either could give him a run for his money, but both is overkill. The only possible way to win here is Magen: Gamarinshou, but I really don't see him pulling it off.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

clador said:


> kisame already *admit that base jiraiya >> kisame *
> 
> *just look how base jiraiya would have killed easely kisame in that jutsu hotel *
> without amaterasu itachi and kisame would have been dead against just BASE jiraiyain that hotel
> ...



Not really. If Kisame had puked up a lake that drains chakra and transformed in to a shark with super strength then Jiraiya would release the jutsu. 

Kisame didn't know anything about Jiraiya other than him being a Sannin so whether he's in a different league or not remains to be seen.

We still have a healthy Edo Itachi and Kisame waiting to go all out.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Kisame's suitons can't drain chakra, stop lying.

Kisame admitted Jiraiya is in a different league after he saw him and Samehada had felt his power. And Jiraiya is one of the most famous people in the world. His exploits are well known.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 7, 2010)

Sanbi said:


> Jiraiya loses here. Either could give him a run for his money, but both is overkill. The only possible way to win here is Magen: Gamarinshou, but I really don't see him pulling it off.


Despite what Itachi said. You do know Jiraiya could start off with the Yomi Numa to freeze them in place and then use a Toad Food Court Crusher to flatten them while they sink?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Kisame's suitons can't drain chakra, stop lying.
> 
> Kisame admitted Jiraiya is in a different league after he saw him and Samehada had felt his power. And Jiraiya is one of the most famous people in the world. His exploits are well known.



I'm not lying. I'm never lying. You just can't read the manga worth shit. Every time you say anything, I have to correct you. And it's damn tiring. And on top of that, you're arrogant. You're ignorant, arrogant, and offensive. Please stop addressing me.



Furthermore, Kisame never said Jiraiya was in a different league, he said that his title paled in comparison. An understanding of basic grammar and the VIZ translation indicates he was speaking of Naruto for fear that he was a formidable Jinchūriki; a fear shared by Orochimaru.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

The VIZ translation's grammar makes it clear that *him* is not referencing Jiraiya. 

I am aware that Kisame has multiple ways of draining chakra, but I am also aware that the link I provided states that Suirō Sameodori drains chakra, which confirms what I initially stated.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Except they don't. They refer to the Sannin again with the 'him.'

And Kisame in shark form draining chakra is part of the jutsu. Kisame himself said he drained it via touch. That's...kind of the point of it. Prove the water itself drains chakra and not Kisam


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Yes, but Kisame specifically compares Jiraiya to his title after referencing Jiraiya as a Sannin - his title. So they do. The water itself is the jutsu and he says the jutsu drains chakra. What's your issue?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2010)

"You may be able to take him on, but I'm not sure about me....he's in a different league".

Combine this with the fact that Jiraiya instantly performed a jutsu that had Kisame beat, it's obvious that Jiraiya > Kisame.

Anyway, in this fight Itachi/Kisame win. I don't think it would be a quick contest as no doubt Jiraiya would try to drag it out a bit and think of special tactics, but in the end he won't really be able to do much. He's pretty equal with Itachi, but add Kisame to it and it's extremely hard.

Mid-difficulty win, mainly because of the time it would take to put Jiraiya away.


----------



## Jinnobi (Jun 7, 2010)

I think that anyone who isn't incredibly biased will admit that *BASE* Jiraiya can't take both Itachi and Kisame.

HM Jiraiya is considered weaker than sick Itachi by the majority of unbiased, knowledgeable Naruto fans. Base Jiraiya gets stomped by Itachi ALONE - never-mind unrestricted Kisame as backup.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

By the 'majority of the unbiased,' you mean Uchiha fans, right? Kishimoto get Jiraiya enough jutsu to take down Itachi or at the very least give him a tough fight, sick or no. 

And sorry, Selim, but he was talking about Jiraiya. Her only mentioned him as a Sannin once. When did he say that factored?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> By the 'majority of the unbiased,' you mean Uchiha fans, right? Kishimoto get Jiraiya enough jutsu to take down Itachi or at the very least give him a tough fight, sick or no.



Agreed. In terms of praise they have also had similar recognition (Madara and Pain), while Kisame clearly thought Itachi/Jiraiya were pretty equal, give or take. Don't mean to turn this into a Itachi vs Jiraiya debate, but it is clearly a close matchup, and it's complete bias for anyone to say one rapes the other.


----------



## Michael (Jun 7, 2010)

Rape thread is a rape.  Either one solos.


----------



## Tourune (Jun 7, 2010)

Jiraya in Sm Kills Itachi first then Frog Kata's Kisame


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

Shikamaru Nara123 said:


> Rape thread is a rape.  Either one solos.



pretty much this.... and i agree with selim, the justu also drains charka...


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

No, it does not. Kisame does.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

it clearly states that the justu drains also.... notice how kisame says he likes to watch his victims squirm.

how is he watching, if he is actively drain there charka also.... and why is it hard to accept that the dome drains charka also? ( im pretty sure at a slower rate) if you remember there was the sound 4 guy that had a doton dome justu that drains charka aswhile.. so this shouldnt be to hard to accept.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Tourune said:


> Jiraya in Sm Kills Itachi first then Frog Kata's Kisame



This made me lol



SM00TH38 said:


> it clearly states that the justu drains also.... notice how kisame says he likes to watch his victims squirm.
> 
> how is he watching, if he is actively drain there charka also.... and why is it hard to accept that the dome drains charka also? ( im pretty sure at a slower rate) if you remember there was the sound 4 guy that had a doton dome justu that drains charka aswhile.. so this shouldnt be to hard to accept.



Yup.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Because Suitons do not drain chakra. The Jutsu itself involves Kisame draining them and he only says that Bee is being drained when they're touching.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

soooo...... dotons can drain chakra but suitons cant????? flawed logic.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

I want scans of them doing so.

And explain why it was NEVER commented that the dome drained chakra until Kisame touched Bee


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Scans of Dotons doing so? Read up Jirōbō. And draining moderate amounts of chakra hasn't shown to be immediately noticeable. Especially for a Jinchūriki, I should think.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

cuz i knew you would ask


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Except Sabu and the Hachibi sure would notice. We only see chakra drain when Kisame touches him. And Kisame only commented Bee was being drained when they touched.

I'll wait still


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

well whatever... regardless, kisame is in jiraiya's league period. to deny this is silly at best.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Kisame himself disagrees


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

please dont use that as an arguement..... because if thats the case Oro stated that he is stronger than jiriaya, do you believe that? and itachi also stated that only a uchiha can defeat him, do you believe that?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

And Kisame wasn't talking about Jiraiya. That's important too.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Orochimaru made a claim Jiraiya clearly disagreed with. Kisame stated Jiraiya was in a different league than him-sorry, Selim, no lying out of this for you...why should I disbelieve him if he's rating himself as WEAKER? Kisame has a lot of pride in himself.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Sorry, the VIZ translation indicates he was talking about the Kyūbi initially before moving on to the babysitter with a solid reputation. Too bad that destroys your entire, flawed argument. Oh, well.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Since when? There's no indication which 'him' in the Viz...the raw text indicates it was about Naruto all the time thanks to Suki's line by line translation. He clarified this pretty clearly when I asked.

So your interpretation of the Viz text vs. a pro translator's interpretation of the RAW text.

Never mind they just saw Naruto and knew he was an untalented kid. So...12 year old Naruto>Kisame?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Shounensuki is a professional translator? From what I understand, the language is ambiguous in Japanese just like it is in English, and VIZ translators are the best at what they do. 

If they formed the English sentences to indicate Naruto was the original subject, then he was, and I trust them, because I know for a fact that they are professionals.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

what part of naruto having the kyuubi dont you get??? naruto is a jin, at that point they had no ideal how stronger naruto was.

...and jiriaya never rebuttal'd Oro's statement


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

They SAW Naruto. They knew he was weak. Kisame commented on it later. 

Jiraiya also rebutted Oro through his actions and said he was going to kill him. When has Jiraiya risen to taunts anyways?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Scans of them knowing he was weak from seeing him? They were worried about the Kyūbi anyways, not Naruto.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

they just saw Naruto at the ramen shop. They said so themselves. And the Kyuubi is usually referred to with an 'it.'


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

cool story bruh


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Great job citing a fight where Jiraiya could barely even stand from being drugged.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

...same fight oro said he was still better so whats your point??? oro had no hands


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Orochimaru can still fight very well. Jiraiya could barely summon on his own.

A>B>C logic is bad anyways


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 7, 2010)

no ones using a>b>c.... Oro stats that with both of them being evenly handicap that he > jiriaya. and oro couldnt summon at all


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah. He had Kabuto doing it for him...it was still his summon.

Point is, handicapped fighting is not indicative of a normal battle


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> they just saw Naruto at the ramen shop. They said so themselves. And the Kyuubi is usually referred to with an 'it.'



Scans of them thinking he's weak or not?

And yeah, Orochimaru owned Jiraiya in their handicapped fight.

And then Tsunade owned Orochimaru. Snake > Frog > Slug > Snake


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Briefly getting the better of someone? Not really 'owning' them when you only did so by pretty much leaving the fight for another. 

And do I REALLY need to cite Naruto at 12 being weak? I mean...really?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

Slamming someone in to the ground to the point where they don't recover up until after you stab and repeatedly slash their partner is pretty much dominating them. Jiraiya also needed Tsunade to save him from Manda.

Obviously, Naruto was relatively weak at 12, but you need to cite where Itachi or Kisame would know that. Kakashi knew that there were people younger than Naruto and yet stronger than himself. Akatsuki knew it too. The Jinchūriki of the Kyūbi is someone to be wary of for obvious reasons.



If he loses control, shit goes down.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

They just saw him at the Ramen shop, did they not? And Akatsuki took the Kyuubi seriously? Kakuzu and Deidara showed no fear. sasori didn't even look at him when deflecting his attack. Kisame was just "Hehe, let's cut off his legs!"

Stop jumping through hoops to justify things.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 7, 2010)

None of those examples applied to the Kyūbi. Why would Itachi fear Jiraiya when he said the only person who stood a chance against him was someone with the Sharingan and his own blood?


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah, they applied to the Kyuubi. None of the Akatsuki were scared. And Kisame is a walking Bijuu counter. He easily disabled Naruto?

And he didn't say the only one who could beat him was someone with a sharingan and an Uchiha (unless one would think he was declaring himself stronger than even Shodai, Pain, etc, the latter of whom is directly stated as the strongest member of Akatsuki), he said if one had a Sharingan, same eyes, etc they could resist his Mangekyo when he fought Kakashi.

Jiraiya has just as many one hit KO jutsu as Itachi does.


----------



## IzanagiRikudo (Jun 7, 2010)

Itachi and Kisame win, but with moderate to high difficulty. If Itachi lands a successfull Amaterasu, Jiraiya would probably lose. Itachi is fast enough to dodge most of his attacks, and Kisame can deal with any chakra based attack (Chou Oodoma Rasengan). Frog Song can win this for Jiraiya, but I'm pretty sure Kisame would escape it due to Samehada. Once Susano'o comes out, it's game over for Jiraiya.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> And he didn't say the only one who could beat him was someone with a sharingan and an Uchiha



No, those were actually his exact words more or less. I can find the scan if you'd like.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Hmm, this is the most common one I've seen anyways,



The boast at the very least muddies his statement about Jiraiya/Kyūbi.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

I'll send Gottheim and Suki a message on the exact translation. I'm wary of using ancient OM scans as definite proof. 

The context means he might be discussing Tsukuyomi, which gels with the databook as well.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Well, I'm sure he's talking about Tsukuyomi, but his statement seems clear enough. If no one can defeat his instant technique then no one can defeat him.

And, realistically, a ninja being able to fight Itachi without making eye is a death sentence for fairly obvious reasons, I should think, at least.


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 8, 2010)

funny how you nitpick on this( or anything that debunks your arguement), but assume everything( that would possiblely support your case) else is fact


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

There's the very large possibility that plenty of opponents wouldn't look in his eyes, given he was kind enough to show it off to Kakashi, as well as show Jiraiya. 

It's the same as being able to defeat Yomi Numa. Can't beat it? Can't beat Jiraiya.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Right, but there is a cycle here that no individual ninja can succeed in. A perfected Tsukuyomi and a perfected Amaterasu is a foolproof system that can kill nearly any individual ninja. 

If you'd like, I can take fifteen minutes to gather images to demonstrate my point. There is a reason aside from bias as to why it's simple to logically conclude that only groups can typically succeed against Itachi's arsenal.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Unfortunately, ICly, that's...not exactly how Itachi fights. 

Jiraiya and Paiun have just as many easy quick kill combos


----------



## SM00TH38 (Jun 8, 2010)

yomi numa has NO such claim as being "the game ender" justu. if yomi numa was so powerful why didnt jiriaya teach it to naruto instead of rasegan???? yomi numa is a support justu/ to be used in conjunction with ______. its never killed or did anything other than trap fodder. IMO if you apply charka to your feet you can get out just like anything else.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

_I disagree. First, all of Itachi's techniques are one-hitters, and he uses them far more freely, and quickly, then anyone else, which makes him far more dangerous than any other character in terms of hitting hard and hitting fast. _

















_He also has clones to dish out the pain and multitask before blowing up in the enemy's face as well as the nearly unavoidable Suigaden. Also, remember that he can use these techniques in conjunction with one another, and stack or layer them in any way he desires. He can essentially run around while Susano'o is slicing everything up, while applying Genjutsu, making clones faster than the enemy can see, and using Amaterasu attacks that incinerate fireproof walls before he can cover ten feet.





Combined with the fact that he is the all-around fastest and smartest character in the databook that has next to perfect Taijutsu in addition to Sharingan prediction, which is just an enormously underestimated tool if you recall how vastly inferior Sasuke was before and then how ridiculously superior he became after, he is virtually invincible even when sick. So far, only Pein Rikudō could beat him as far as I'm concerned, and that's not an easy battle for Nagato as Sharingan Genjutsu captures all who look at it at once and with a single clone that double Nagato's problems. _


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Selim said:


> _I disagree. First, all of Itachi's techniques are one-hitters, and uses them far more freely, and quickly, then anyone else, which makes him far more dangerous than any other character in terms of hitting hard and hitting fast. _


Itachi does not use them freely. He prefers not to due to the toll it takes

A good deal of the upper tiers can deal with that. Genjutsu is not an end all be all

This is only useful if he's already close by



>


If he's using it. If.
And there's a range limit.

There's no 'perfected' Amaterasu. Plus, there's a nice gap between preparing to use it and using it

With no ill effects mind

Which is a double edged sword if one can avoid it while it drains Itachi's life.

Yeah, except you made the latter up



> _He also has clones to dish out the pain and multitask before blowing up in the enemy's face as well as the nearly unavoidable Suigaden. Also, remember that he can use these techniques in conjunction with one another, and stack or layer them in any way he desires. He can essentially run around while Susano'o is slicing everything up, while applying Genjutsu, making clones faster than the enemy can see, and using Amaterasu attacks that incinerate fireproof walls before he can cover ten feet._


_
Except...no. He cannot use his eyes to multitask like that with MS techniques. He cannot use two Ms techniques simultaneously. the exploding clones are incredibly overhyped and failed to do any true damage to Itachi and Kurenai at point blank. There's no evidence he can use Suigaden away from a source either




			Combined with the fact that he is the all-around fastest and smartest character in the databook that has next to perfect Taijutsu in addition to Sharingan prediction, which is just an enormously underestimated tool, he is virtually invincible even when sick. So far, only Pein Rikudō could beat him as far as I'm concerned, and that's not an easy battle for Nagato.
		
Click to expand...

_
He is not the fastest whatsoever. Gai has the exact same rating. Hiruzen, Orochimaru, Tsunade, Kakuzu and Sasori have the same intelligence rating. Plenty of people have nearly perfect taijutsu as well.

Let's discuss Jiraiya as well. Jiraiya has way more chakra with which to spam his moves. He's more free about using his killing jutsu than Itachi is. He isn't a Genjutsu type, but he sure as hell knows his way around it and can break it. He's got near perfect marks in strength, speed and intelligence. His jutsu abilities are superior to Itachi's without the MS. His summons are all extremely powerful, particular Bunta, who has the 'instant' Dosu Zan slash, the water bullets which are as fast and lethal as any bullet-and they're huge. Gama Yuedan, which is just as much a one hit KO. Yomi Numa, shown to be instant and more or less unavoidable. Unlike Itachi, Jiraiya has the chakra to spam bunshins and with Toad Silhouette, can set the enemy up with them. His Toad Oil Bullet, which he spits out at insane speeds is also capable of blinding an enemy like Itachi, and he can use it to make his katons stronger.

he can also use Food Cart Crusher where he spams a summon out of a hundred meter drop instantly above the opponent with a handseal. Not to mention his talent with the Rasengan and the Iwagama, which forced Itachi to use the amaterasu to escape by his own admission.

So, yeah, that's a prett ynice counter. Plus, Jiraiya's just as good at Bunshin feints and he can afford to continuously use them. That isn't covering his abilities in Hermit Mode, where he has two kage level fighters on his shoulders. Where they can paralyze the enemy unavoidably and instantly just by using a blast of sound...he can fire his hair as his fastest attack in a huge arc with great force. They can also use a lake of burning oil that's thousands of degrees and can reduce a human being to cinders. 

So, yeah, Jiraiya has got just as much, if not more in his arsenal. And he's not afraid to hide to assess a situation one of his barriers. He's got top and near top marks in pretty much everything save genjutsu and even then he knows how to fight it and the intellect to do so. He's also far more willing to actively kill opponents he fights. And Yomi Numa will kill you as surely as Amaterasu.  
And In Sage Mode, all his jutsu and physical stats rise, dramatically. 

So yeah, he stands firmly even with Itachi. And that wasn't even touching some of his other factors like the Chou Oodama Rasengan


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

I didn't make anything up. If it struck Orochimaru before he could finish his sentence, before he could react, and Orochimaru has a 4.5 in speed and reactions than just about anyone and everyone is slower than Susano'o. 

We've seen Sasuke use Amaterasu with Susano'o several times so yes they can be used simultaneously. However, Jiraiya would be caught in Genjutsu immediately so there's not too much to discuss on that end. Likewise, Jiraiya's method failed horribly against Itachi.



There's the IC enounter with Jiraiya making eye contact.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Orochimaru was practically drooling with insanity, lacked the means to dodge, wasn't even paying attention and considered it no threat.

Yes, you made it up. Orochimaru's shown better reaction time when his attention is focused. See the Rashomon gates.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Orochimaru was practically drooling with insanity, lacked the means to dodge, wasn't even paying attention and considered it no threat. *Yes, you made it u*p.



The only one making anything up is you. Orochimaru was paying attention, and didn't even begin to react until after the blow was struck, hence his inflection at the end of his sentence. Susano'o evidently moves faster than Naruto's blast.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Orochimaru was ranting hysterically and his line of "Kuku, think this cut can stop me!" Implies both he was paying it no mind and he considered it no threat at all.
We've seen people interrupted by attacks mid sentence before to boot. 

And please point out when Sasuke used a full Susanoo with Amaterasu simultaneously. That seems to require the full use of both MS eyes.

Also, if Itachi didn't even try a Genjutsu on Jiraiya, then he likely felt anything so basic was ineffectual. He was forced to use Amaterasu and franklly, if Jiraiya pursued with Itachi so weakened, then he very likely could've killed them.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Orochimaru laughing an attack off doesn't change the fact that he didn't react to it. 'The attack happened between the word "defeat" and the word "-you?" The Sannin was stabbed so quickly that he didn't even have time to react by speaking - let alone dodging the blade. This man was hailed as a genius and feared internationally.' Sasuke's Susano'o was also shown to be very fast.

Itachi didn't try any Genjutsu, or any technique, on Jiraiya because he didn't want to kill Jiraiya. If I followed your logic through then Itachi didn't use Susano'o, Amaterasu, or Tsukuyomi at that moment because he knew it would be useless as well.



Here is Sasuke using three Mangekyō Sharingan techniques at once. Susano'o requiring both eyes, Amaterasu requiring the left one, and Kagutsuchi requiring the right. I'm sure if he wanted to drop a Tsukuyomi he could have.

*Edit:* And I just noticed you seemed to argue that Amaterasu takes a gap to use, which isn't true, again, as evidenced by Sasuke who fires them off rapidly and seemingly without discretion. You also underestimated the exploding clone as it can use techniques, and the explosion was blocked by Itachi's Suiton Wall while Kakashi saved Kurenai due to his Sharingan. A normal individual, like Jiraiya, would be screwed as the databook says that it will kill.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

As I said, we've seen sentences interrupted before. Orochimaru's flaw   his own. 

And if Itachi used anything on Jiraiya, he and Kisame'd still die in the Iwagama. 

And that's Sasuke using an incomplete Susanoo and the Enton. Kay...I kind of asked for it with the full Susanoo.

And please inform us why Sasuke never dropped a Tsukuyomi on A, please


----------



## Akimichi Farley (Jun 8, 2010)

Imo, Itachi and Kisame had absolutely no intention of confronting Jiraiya back then. They deliberately attempted to separate him from Naruto and try to snatch the latter and quickly scrapped that plan when Jiraiya showed up regardless. 

For reasons that we can only speculate on, Itachi chose not to confront him at the time. But that does not mean he couldn't have used genjutsu on him or that it wouldn't be effective. Itachi is just a calculating dude. He may have simply assumed the worst, like a kagebunshin feint, or counter-genjutsu or what have you. Which paid off because the worst almost nearly happened. 

Nor does it mean Jiraiya wouldn't have an answer to genjutsu. Otherwise Itachi wouldn't so obviously be walking on ice around him.

edit: My thoughts on the Orochimaru thing....I always interpreted that scene as Oro being more overconfident than usual in addition to being overcome in anticipation of finally achieving one of his greatest dreams, and not expecting the sole thing in the entire Narutoverse capable of OHKOing him popping out.

edit pt.2: Selim, you're next in line for a Haiku. Believe it.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Itachi knew Jiraiya's power and was certainly not going to take him lightly. He is not able to just walk all over him by any means.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> As I said, we've seen sentences interrupted before. Orochimaru's flaw his own.



Care to cite some examples?



Lightysnake said:


> And if Itachi used anything on Jiraiya, he and Kisame'd still die in the Iwagama.



Which Jiraiya only got off because Itachi turned his back on him to pummel and drop his strongest technique in front of Jiraiya. He clearly didn't intend to fight or didn't feel inferior.



Lightysnake said:


> And that's Sasuke using an incomplete Susanoo and the Enton. Kay...I kind of asked for it with the full Susanoo.



Does an incomplete Susano'o take only one eyeball? What is the point if I have already shown that three Mangekyō Sharingan techniques can be used at once? Also Enton simply means flame if I'm not mistaken, he was using Kagutsuchi, which is the technique in his right eye that bends Amaterasu.



Lightysnake said:


> Itachi knew Jiraiya's power and was certainly not going to take him lightly. He is not able to just walk all over him by any means.



In any case, he certainly didn't seem to act as though he was inferior. Quite the opposite, in fact, as he discarded Jiraiya's presence in a similar fashion that Orochimaru did so to Kakashi.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Now, without hunting for example as it's rather late on my end, some interruptions I recall..
Tsunade to Kabuto, the Chuunin exams had quite a few, Jiraiya also interrupted one of Animal Realm's summonings with a kick...and we saw Animal realm summons damn fast by blocking Jiraiya's fastest attack.

And I am saying a full Susanoo will put more strain on the eyes. Did Sasuke use other techniques on Danzo when his full Susanoo was out?


----------



## Akimichi Farley (Jun 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Itachi knew Jiraiya's power and was certainly not going to take him lightly. He is not able to just walk all over him by any means.



That's pretty much where I stand. Itachi isn't a dumbass. He knows his own capabilities, and if the two of them together could have safely confronted Jiraiya without either of them dying they would have certainly done so. 

On the other hand there is also the possibility that Itachi didn't want there to be any chance of Jiraiya dying either. This fits with what was later revealed of his true nature, and would suggest that Jiraiya isn't the kind of person even these two top tier ninjas could subdue without killing.

In other words none of these three are walking over any of each other guys, believe it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Not exactly. As Itachi is the only spy it's not like he would be able to tell Kisame "let's just take it easy on him, not kill him, and not take Naruto." It's pretty clear to most that an unrestricted Itachi and Kisame would dominate base Jiraiya. Especially if they ambushed him, which would have been an available course.

And yet Itachi used a distraction, which Kisame said they were aware would fail, to conveniently give reason to abandon his mission while not shedding any Konoha blood. It's almost like he sympathizes with the village and is working against Akatsuki. If only that was mentioned in the manga...


----------



## Akimichi Farley (Jun 8, 2010)

Selim said:


> Not exactly. As Itachi is the only spy it's not like he would be able to tell Kisame "let's just take it easy on him, and not kill him." It's pretty clear to most that an unrestricted Itachi and Kisame would dominate base Jiraiya. Especially if they ambushed him, which would have been an available course.
> 
> And yet Itachi used a distraction, which Kisame said they were aware would work, to conveniently fail his mission while not shedding any Konoha blood. It's almost like he sympathizes with the village and is working against Akatsuki.



Now hold it right there, you've misunderstood my position. I was only talking about the context of that specific confrontation. Itachi wished neither Jiraiya or one of them killed and this outcome is to be understood as being impossible. 

An unrestricted fight is a different matter entirely, in which I think Jiraiya wouldn't get dominated, but his chances of winning are not good.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 8, 2010)

Itachi wished for Jiraiya to not be killed and for Naruto to not be taken back to Akatsuki. Whether he was concerned about the seven foot shark's well being is speculation, and it seemed pretty evident that he didn't think Jiraiya could touch him while beating on Sasuke.

That's my take on it anyways as I find it extremely unlikely that Itachi and Kisame would suffer a casualty if they truly wanted to kill Jiraiya at that point. Assuming Itachi had full knowledge on Kisame, Base Jiraiya would have seemed wimpy to the two of them.


----------



## Akimichi Farley (Jun 8, 2010)

Selim said:


> Itachi wished for Jiraiya to not be killed and for Naruto to not be taken back to Akatsuki. Whether he was concerned about the seven foot shark's well being is speculation, and it seemed pretty evident that he didn't think Jiraiya could touch him while beating on Sasuke.
> 
> That's my take on it anyways as I find it extremely unlikely that Itachi and Kisame would suffer a casualty if they truly wanted to kill Jiraiya at that point. Assuming Itachi had full knowledge on Kisame, Base Jiraiya would have seemed wimpy to the two of them.




We're talking past each other here. I'll say again: 
(By virtue of Itachi's hidden motivations) They didn't truly want to kill Jiraiya at that point. Itachi wished for Jiraiya not to be killed, yes. I would also argue he wished for neither Kisame or himself to be killed or injured either. This outcome we both agree, is impossible.

Out of context, unrestricted, Jiraiya likely loses. I disagree with you only in what degree of difficulty Itachi and Kisame would have in the process.


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Wow, that was....quick with Selim.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 8, 2010)

Itachi solos with either Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Susano'o. Minor to moderate difficulty, due to the starting distance. With bloodlust, he will resort to his big guns right away and Shunshin across the gap, but Jiraiya will be able to lay down some suppressive fire as well to keep his distance.

Kisame takes it after a longer but not much more difficult fight. The starting distance allows him to spit a Tsunami first and make Suirou Same Odori no Jutsu, as well as fuse with Samehada. In an underwater battle, constantly draining Jiraiya's and the Ni Dai Sennins' chakra, while they all drown, Kisame should be able to win.


----------



## Angoobo (Jun 8, 2010)

Jiraiya would stomp Itachi( bloodlusted or not).
If he starts in HM, with both Pa&Ma, i can see him winning this with high difficulty.


----------



## clador (Jun 8, 2010)

Selim said:


> I didn't make anything up. If it struck Orochimaru before he could finish his sentence, before he could react, and Orochimaru has a 4.5 in speed and reactions than just about anyone and everyone is slower than Susano'o.
> 
> We've seen Sasuke use Amaterasu with Susano'o several times so yes they can be used simultaneously. However, Jiraiya would be caught in Genjutsu immediately so there's not too much to discuss on that end. Likewise, Jiraiya's method failed horribly against Itachi.
> 
> ...



jiraiya is the most experimented guy with madara 
i think he know what he is doing , he know the sharingan ability
he even knew that madara was the one who use his sharingan to controled and summoned kyubi 

so this is only your interpretation to think that he would be caugh in genjutsu immediatly 

it's not a poor reader like you or me who will understand why an very experimented ninja like jiraiya didn't care to see itachi in his eyes 
jiraiya is not orochimaru , he know very well what is he doing and he knew genjutsu won't effected him that easely

even itachi knew he can"t use genjutsu on him that eseasly
he was condident to fight and even kill kakashi , asuma and kurenai
NOT jiraiya even in his base form who must protect a poor genin


----------



## DarkRasengan (Jun 8, 2010)

IMO the strength levels go like this.

HM jiraiya>>Itachi(ms included)>>>Base jiraiya=Fused kisame>>>Base kisame.

Jiraiya starting in HM should take this 5/10 times base on superior speed/strength and jutsu repetoire.


----------



## On and On (Jun 8, 2010)

Jiraiya would fucking murder Kisame at least.

Itachi is questionable.


----------



## Jinnobi (Jun 8, 2010)

The Comedian said:


> Jiraiya would fucking murder Kisame at least.



What's your reasoning?


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Because Jiraiya is better than Kiame as Kisame admitted


----------



## Jinnobi (Jun 8, 2010)

Lightysnake said:


> Because Jiraiya is better than Kiame as Kisame admitted



Clearly this statement - based on IN MANGA HYPE OF THE SANNIN NAME - is clear and trustworthy.

In fact, Base Jiraiya can take Itachi and Kisame - or at WORST tie.

Keep dreaming.

Now: what's your reasoning?


----------



## Lightysnake (Jun 8, 2010)

Funny. They just saw Kisame. We know Samehada can feel chakra.

And in hype of the Sannin name? Kisame showed no fear of Orochimaru. In fact, his only comment there was "we're not hunting him any more? Shame."
And he discussed Jiraiya specifically. Stop making things up.


----------

