# Luffy vs Vergo



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 19, 2014)

Location: Punk Hazard, starting distance is 50 meters.
Intel: Full.
Mindset: Bloodlusted.
S1: No Gears.
S2: G2 only.
S3: No restrictions.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 19, 2014)

1. Vergo wins with around mid difficulty.

2. It could go either way.

3. Luffy wins with around mid difficulty.


----------



## zoro (Sep 19, 2014)

S1) Vergo lower end of high diff

S2) Can go either way

S3) Luffy lower end of high diff


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 19, 2014)

1 : Could go either way,leaning towards Vergo

2 : Luffy high difficulty

3: Luffy mid difficulty


----------



## DavyChan (Sep 19, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> 1 : Could go either way,leaning towards Vergo
> 
> 2 : Luffy high difficulty
> 
> 3: Luffy mid difficulty



i agree with this after some rethinking


----------



## Ruse (Sep 19, 2014)

S1: Vergo takes this comfortably 
S2: Vergo extreme diff
S3: Luffy high diff


----------



## Kaiser (Sep 19, 2014)

S1: Vergo low diffs
S2: Vergo high difficulty
S3: Could go either way, but if i were to chose, i'd say Luffy


----------



## Luke (Sep 19, 2014)

Scenario 1: Vergo wins with medium difficulty. 

Scenario 2: Vergo wins with extremely high difficulty.

Scenario 3: Luffy wins with high difficulty.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 19, 2014)

Luffy has taken attacks from Doflamingo without a problem And Doflamingo is a good deal stronger than Vergo.

Vergo winning against Gear 2nd Luffy is absurd.


----------



## Magician (Sep 19, 2014)

1. Vergo, low diff.
2. Vergo, high diff.
3. Luffy, high diff.


----------



## savior2005 (Sep 19, 2014)

1. vergo wins mid diff
2. luffy wins high difficulty
3. luffy wins mid difficulty
vergo aint beating g2 luffy.


----------



## Suit (Sep 19, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy has taken attacks from Doflamingo without a problem And Doflamingo is a good deal stronger than Vergo.
> 
> Vergo winning against Gear 2nd Luffy is absurd.



BlessThisPost.gif

S1: Luffy extreme-diff
S2: Luffy mid-diff
S3: Luffy mid-diff, possibly low


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy has taken attacks from Doflamingo without a problem And Doflamingo is a good deal stronger than Vergo.
> 
> Vergo winning against Gear 2nd Luffy is absurd.


This line of reasoning seems a bit off, since Vergo could very simply be physically stronger than Doflamingo. As a combatant obviously Doflamingo would trounce him but Vergo could still win something like...an arm-wrestling match; Doflamingo's power level isn't a result of him having OD physical strength. He _is_ superb in that regard, sure, but Vergo most likely could wield more force. When not even in his absurd , the sheer force from a  of Vergo's bamboo staff was shown to displace air enough to  the nearby metal. A swing when in his hulk-mode would have in all likelihood done a lot more, since it seemed more than just "my whole body is covered in hardening COA" and instead his whole musculature changed to that wild degree, like a hyperbolic version of Zoro's . It seems like a technique in itself.

In any case, Doflamingo's more dangerous attacks are string/cutting oriented, and likely will continue to be. Luffy's win/loss won't be that dependent on if he can out-muscle Doflamingo. In a fight with Vergo, however, it would be. Vergo and Luffy occupy the same sort of brute-vein of combat, and given the impeccable sturdiness of Vergo's body (ex. the cracking of the strongest part of Sanji's body without using hardening or the hulk form) it's not unreasonable to think Luffy would need a Gear 3 move to put Vergo down. Of course given Vergo's speed and Geppou, actually hitting him with something like an Elephant Gun _could_ be a challenge in itself, so like with Lucci his legs would probably have to be not at 100% first.

Scenario 1 ~ Vergo wins, low difficulty. No Jet attacks is unfortunate.
Scenario 2 ~ Vergo wins, mid difficulty. As stated above I think G3 is necessary.
Scenario 3 ~ Luffy wins, high or extreme difficulty. (If Vergo was shown to not make dumb combat decisions, like charging head on at attacks, I'd just say extreme.)


----------



## NO (Sep 19, 2014)

Roo said:


> S1: Luffy extreme-diff
> S2: Luffy mid-diff
> S3: Luffy mid-diff, possibly low


Ditto. 





Datassassin said:


> This line of reasoning seems a bit off, since Vergo could very simply be physically stronger than Doflamingo. As a combatant obviously Doflamingo would trounce him but Vergo could still win something like...an arm-wrestling match; Doflamingo's power level isn't a result of him having OD physical strength. He _is_ superb in that regard, sure, but Vergo most likely could wield more force. When not even in his absurd , the sheer force from a  of Vergo's bamboo staff was shown to displace air enough to  the nearby metal. A swing when in his hulk-mode would have in all likelihood done a lot more, since it seemed more than just "my whole body is covered in hardening COA" and instead his whole musculature changed to that wild degree, like a hyperbolic version of Zoro's . It seems like a technique in itself.
> 
> In any case, Doflamingo's more dangerous attacks are string/cutting oriented, and likely will continue to be. Luffy's win/loss won't be that dependent on if he can out-muscle Doflamingo. In a fight with Vergo, however, it would be. Vergo and Luffy occupy the same sort of brute-vein of combat, and given the impeccable sturdiness of Vergo's body (ex. the cracking of the strongest part of Sanji's body without using hardening or the hulk form) it's not unreasonable to think Luffy would need a Gear 3 move to put Vergo down. Of course given Vergo's speed and Geppou, actually hitting him with something like an Elephant Gun _could_ be a challenge in itself, so like with Lucci his legs would probably have to be not at 100% first.
> 
> ...


You suggest that Vergo may be physically stronger than Doflamingo but there is no evidence that this is the case. We know Doflamingo's haki is superior to Vergo...which is why Law hasn't one-shotted Doflamingo yet. Doflamingo has also cut down a meteor with his strings and effortlessly controlled a top WB pirate fighter, brute made of _diamond_. With some effort, he broke out of Aokiji's harder-than-steel ice. These feats require immense strength and are not going to be replicated by some fodder who picks up his DF one day.

Doflamingo is far past Vergo physically and simply surpasses his CoA based on his encounters with Law. Doflamingo's biggest problem was that he trusted subordinates like Vergo to take care of non-run of the mill fighters like Luffy and Law. Based on the portrayal of his subordinates (Pica, Diamante, and Trebol all looking horrible), the fact that Vergo was the first to go down, and Doflamingo's own portrayal in his fight with Luffy and Law, there is a drastic difference between Doflamingo and his crew-mates

The bottom lines are this.  Law's haki is superior to Vergo's. Luffy's physical capabilities and defense feats are far more impressive than Vergo.  And finally, Vergo's speed is nothing special when he was matching kicks with Sanji and trading blows with Smoker.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 19, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy has taken attacks from Doflamingo without a problem And Doflamingo is a good deal stronger than Vergo.
> 
> Vergo winning against Gear 2nd Luffy is absurd.



People are weird.

Scenario 3 luffy is still going to massively rely on gear 2 two to wear down vergo because those gear 3 are not going to connect if he doesn't fight like an idiot.

It just means it takes longer that's all.


----------



## NO (Sep 19, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> People are weird.
> 
> Scenario 3 luffy is still going to massively rely on gear 2 two to wear down vergo because those gear 3 are not going to connect if he doesn't fight like an idiot.
> 
> It just means it takes longer that's all.


I was being generous with Luffy's feats. If we are talking about a bloodlusted Luffy, then Luffy in scenario 2 just needs to spam Red Hawk 4-5 times throughout the course of the fight and Vergo is down (assuming Vergo is coated in hardening the entire time). Luffy's stamina is insane (re: Noah and E-gatling spamming) so Red Hawk spamming is not unrealistic. Scenario 2 could be a low-mid diff and Scenario 3 is still low-diff. 

Scenario 1 is not that hard to figure out either.  It's a stamina/endurance fight. Luffy has the upper-hand by feats here, however, it's going to be a slow fight, which is why I think it'll be high-extreme.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> You suggest that Vergo may be physically stronger than Doflamingo but there is no evidence that this is the case. We know Doflamingo's haki is superior to Vergo...which is why Law hasn't one-shotted Doflamingo yet. Doflamingo has also cut down a meteor with his strings and effortlessly controlled a top WB pirate fighter, brute made of _diamond_. With some effort, he broke out of Aokiji's harder-than-steel ice. These feats require immense strength and are not going to be replicated by some fodder who picks up his DF one day.
> 
> Doflamingo is far past Vergo physically and simply surpasses his CoA based on his encounters with Law. Doflamingo's biggest problem was that he trusted subordinates like Vergo to take care of non-run of the mill fighters like Luffy and Law. Based on the portrayal of his subordinates (Pica, Diamante, and Trebol all looking horrible), the fact that Vergo was the first to go down, and Doflamingo's own portrayal in his fight with Luffy and Law, there is a drastic difference between Doflamingo and his crew-mates
> 
> The bottom lines are this.  Law's haki is superior to Vergo's. Luffy's physical capabilities and defense feats are far more impressive than Vergo.  And finally, Vergo's speed is nothing special when he was matching kicks with Sanji and trading blows with Smoker.


Holding Jozu in place and similar DF-feats are likely a matter of Devil Fruit skill. Not muscle/strength. You're mentioning haki when haki...is haki and strength is strength. For example, Hancock likely has better haki than Jozu, being a master and all, but of course that doesn't somehow make her able to access more force than him. 

Luffy's COA feats have some holes in them. While it's certainly not impossible I just don't see Vergo's COA hardening failing against Hody's teeth. It doesn't matter that much anyway since Luffy relies on a lot more than just proficiency in COA hardening to win. Also, Sanji's speed is pretty good and Smoker has notable maneuverability that takes good speed to react to.

Edit: Missed the ice part; we don't fully know how Doflamingo broke out. COA counteracting Aokiji's fruit's freezing, pure strength (though it wasn't a block of ice), subtle usage of strings, etc. There's no clear answer.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 19, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> Holding Jozu in place and similar DF-feats are likely a matter of Devil Fruit skill. Not muscle/strength. You're mentioning haki when haki...is haki and strength is strength. For example, Hancock likely has better haki than Jozu, being a master and all, but of course that doesn't somehow make her able to access more force than him.
> 
> Luffy's COA feats have some holes in them. While it's certainly not impossible I just don't see Vergo's COA hardening failing against Hody's teeth. It doesn't matter that much anyway since Luffy relies on a lot more than just proficiency in COA hardening to win. Also, Sanji's speed is pretty good and Smoker has notable maneuverability that takes good speed to react to.



Josu more than likely has stronger COA than Hancock.
EDIT:  Josu DEFINITELY has better COA than Hancock.

Probably could break thorugh.  Hody had some very powerful teeth in that form.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2014)

It would be odd for Jozu to have better COA than Hancock's given that she's been hailed as a master of it/a lot of her hype comes from supposedly stunting with haki. Him hitting Croc and Aokiji once each on screen and doing the basic intangibility-nullification isn't enough for me to say he's over the hill of Hancock's hype. It'd be so much easier to judge if Jozu had fought post-skip/after Oda thought of hardening.


----------



## NO (Sep 19, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> Holding Jozu in place and similar DF-feats are likely a matter of Devil Fruit skill. Not muscle/strength. You're mentioning haki when haki...is haki and strength is strength. For example, Hancock likely has better haki than Jozu, being a master and all, but of course that doesn't somehow make her able to access more force than him.
> 
> Luffy's COA feats have some holes in them. While it's certainly not impossible I just don't see Vergo's COA hardening failing against Hody's teeth. It doesn't matter that much anyway since Luffy relies on a lot more than just proficiency in COA hardening to win. Also, Sanji's speed is pretty good and Smoker has notable maneuverability that takes good speed to react to.
> 
> Edit: Missed the ice part; we don't fully know how Doflamingo broke out. COA counteracting Aokiji's fruit's freezing, pure strength (though it wasn't a block of ice), subtle usage of strings, etc. There's no clear answer.


So we can just give Nami his DF and she'll be able to Parasite Jozu, dice a meteor, and break out of Aokiji's ice (which has nothing to do with the DF)? Well, I hate to break it to you, but that's outrageous on all levels. These feats have everything to do with strength.

Doflamingo breaking out of the ice more than likely has to do with strength, as he was gasping after getting out of it. There's no proof he was using CoA or his DF either. The answer isn't unclear. There's no reason to overthink it.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 19, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> It would be odd for Jozu to have better COA than Hancock's given that she's been hailed as a master of it/a lot of her hype comes from supposedly stunting with haki. Him hitting Croc and Aokiji once each on screen and doing the basic intangibility-nullification isn't enough for me to say he's over the hill of Hancock's hype. It'd be so much easier to judge if Jozu had fought post-skip/after Oda thought of hardening.



Josu has been a new world pirate for at least two decades,  is among of the strongest crews in the new world and is one of the top commanders for the said crew.  Hancock's battle experience pales in comparison to his.

Next,  COA and COO and Even COC generally points to a person's own personality and manner of fighting, Josu is the brawler type the physical get in your face punk the shit out of you kind of fighter who has been tussling with the best of the best in the strongest ocean in the world for a lot longer than hancock has been a fighter herself on her paradise island, suffice to say COA is definitely his thing.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> So we can just give Nami his DF and she'll be able to Parasite Jozu, dice a meteor, and break out of Aokiji's ice? Well, I hate to break it to you, but that's outrageous on all levels. These feats have everything to do with strength.
> 
> Doflamingo breaking out of the ice more than likely has to do with strength, as he was gasping after getting out of it. There's no proof he was using CoA or his DF either. The answer isn't unclear. There's no reason to overthink it.


Devil Fruit mastery, the skill a particular user has in the fruit's usage, will of course vary with the person. While most of the powerful characters in OP are _that_ powerful because of their level of skill with their devil fruit, it also likely comes down to something innate that the weaker characters would lack so giving them a stronger character's Devil Fruit would neither make them as powerful nor would they magically achieve the same level of skill/mastery. Give Nami Doffy's DF and she'd probably hurt herself with the strings somehow and be outright unable to do things like Overheat.

Doflamingo was breathing heavily/panting, probably because he was suddenly super-cold. Might screw with one's respiratory system a bit. Personally I think it was COA + strength but I'm not about to say one explanation has more merit than the others unless Oda gives more support to one.


----------



## Wayne With The Ism (Sep 19, 2014)

What? Luffy beating Vergo without gears? Come on lol. What about Sanji then? No diff?


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Josu has been a new world pirate for at least two decades,  is among of the strongest crews in the new world and is one of the top commanders for the said crew.  Hancock's battle experience pales in comparison to his.
> 
> Next,  COA and COO and Even COC generally points to a person's own personality and manner of fighting, Josu is the brawler type the physical get in your face punk the shit out of you kind of fighter who has been tussling with the best of the best in the strongest ocean in the world for a lot longer than hancock has been a fighter herself on her paradise island, suffice to say COA is definitely his thing.



I'm not doubting that COA is Jozu's speciality, I'm saying his haki has never been highlighted and years of battle experience in this series amount to less than what they should. Hancock is also a very physical fighter, even with the Mero Mero showings Oda had her kick the shit out of dozens of people.


----------



## Summoner (Sep 19, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Location: Punk Hazard, starting distance is 50 meters.
> Intel: Full.
> Mindset: Bloodlusted.
> S1: No Gears.
> ...



S1: I think, most likely Vergo
S2: Coinflip
S3: Luffy, no doubt!


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> I'm not doubting that COA is Jozu's speciality, I'm saying his haki has never been highlighted and years of battle experience in this series amount to less than what they should. Hancock is also a very physical fighter, even with the Mero Mero showings Oda had her kick the shit out of dozens of people.



Nothing you need to think about too much , Rayleigh pointed it out that COA could be directly trained and  Oda mentioned Haki proficiency in general points to a persons personality which fits into their overall fighting style.  That's why Josu is better in that regard because he is a pure physical fighter, but what's more important to note is that* his experience is far better than hers.*  So His COA is going to be better.

Even if Hancock is a physical fighter and has good COA Josu style of fighting demands more as well as him being more experienced as a fighter.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Nothing you need to think about too much , Rayleigh pointed it out that COA could be directly trained and  Oda mentioned Haki proficiency in general points to a persons personality which fits into their overall fighting style.  That's why Josu is better in that regard because he is a pure physical fighter, but what's more important to note is that* his experience is far better than hers.*  So His COA is going to be better.
> 
> Even if Hancock is a physical fighter and has good COA Josu style of fighting demands more as well as him being more experienced as a fighter.


There's lots of characters though that are worse in things they specialize or should specialize in compared to other characters that don't/likely don't. Any CP9 member's Soru would outclass Kuro's uncontrolled one, Luffy is faster than Sanji/has a superb Soru even though Sanji is a leg-person. Even if a character relies more on an ability that doesn't automatically make them holy in it, and on the other end, many characters have great skills they don't _need_. Kizaru's random beastliness in swordplay comes to mind, likely a better swordsman than many notable ones who solely rely on swordsmanship. Hancock not needing COA as much as Jozu shouldn't = her COA isn't at least as good.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> There's lots of characters though that are worse in things they specialize or should specialize in compared to other characters that don't/likely don't.
> Any CP9 member's Soru would outclass Kuro's uncontrolled one,


Depends on the method of the technique involved the speed was the same but the method of doing it was completely different and soru was far more useful.



> Luffy is faster than Sanji/has a superb Soru even though Sanji is a leg-person


.
Luffy is overall stronger than Sanji from east blue come up to now. 
Kicking hard and running fast is not completely related.  Usain bolt can't kick harder than a taekwondo expert. 



> Even if a character relies more on an ability that doesn't automatically make them holy in it, and on the other end, many characters have great skills they don't _need_. *Kizaru's random beastliness in swordplay comes to mind, likely a better swordsman than many notable ones who solely rely on swordsmanship*. Hancock not needing COA as much as Jozu shouldn't = her COA isn't at least as good.



Kizaru has been a marine for decades and had been taught how to use a sword and once again I highlight the importance of experience.  Even if Zoro is a swordsman by nature and Kizaru is not Kizaru has more experience with knowing how to handle a sword so he's going to be better. That's why I've kept highlighting the importance of experience to you that is what essentially makes the difference.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Depends on the method of the technique involved the speed was the same but the method of doing it was completely different and soru was far more useful.
> 
> Luffy is overall stronger than Sanji from east blue come up to now.
> Kicking hard and running fast is not completely related.  Usain bolt can't kick harder than a taekwondo expert.
> ...



Ah truuue good sir those examples were definitely flawed haha, though I think the message was at least conveyed; that people can be better at something than people who need or rely on that something more.

Though @ Soru, it's not just a hard-kicking thing, it's having enough leg-movement speed and control to kick the ground in the same spot 10+ times (for...reasons) and disappear. Since Sanji is also about speedy leg movements, which manifest in many of the kicks, he should technically be able to do it but cannot, leaving Luffy with [in this particular area] better leg control than a leg-specialist who is not _miles_ far from his station in overall 'power level'.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> Ah truuue good sir those examples were definitely flawed haha, though I think the message was at least conveyed; that people can be better at something than people who need or rely on that something more.
> 
> Though @ Soru, it's not just a hard-kicking thing, it's having enough leg-movement speed and control to kick the ground in the same spot 10+ times (for...reasons) and disappear. Since Sanji is also about speedy leg movements, which manifest in many of the kicks, he should technically be able to do it but cannot, leaving Luffy with [in this particular area] better leg control than a leg-specialist who is not _miles_ far from his station in overall 'power level'.



I understand your message and for the most part it's correct but it has to take certain things into consideration. For example the same COA debate that we're having,  for people who would argue vergo against Hancock for having better COA then it's really at that point your manner of thinking would coincide with mine because even though they they have different preferences there is no full and accurate bearing on the value of their experiences in comparison to one another.  Josu on the other hand is just clear cut, he has that much more valuable experience over hancock, 2 decades in the new world as a yonkou crew mate dude, shits on paradise any day of the week.

As for the Soru bit, the reason why Sanji can't do it is because Oda doesn't want him to for some reason.  There is no inverse explanation to why sanji can't do soru just oda it seems wanting to keep a certain unique about them Sanji having geppou Luffy having soru.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> I understand your message and for the most part it's correct but it has to take certain things into consideration. For example the same COA debate that we're having,  for people who would argue vergo against Hancock for having better COA then it's really at that point your manner of thinking would coincide with mine because even though they they have different preferences there is no full and accurate bearing on the value of their experiences in comparison to one another.  Josu on the other hand is just clear cut, he has that much more valuable experience over hancock, 2 decades in the new world as a yonkou crew mate dude, shits on paradise any day of the week.



I don't think Hancock residing in Paradise should be used against her when she certainly could have been to the New World, just with her obligations preventing her from being there in the current era of the story.

@ Vergo's COA vs Hancock's, they should either be similar or her's is better. As far as application and manipulation of COA is concerned that statement of all haki mastery is bolded for me, unless Oda shows that statement to be a lie. Off feats though the best COA in the series seem like Garp's, Doflamingo's (in large part from blocking the flaming barrage of Sanji-kicks with a feather coat with no visible effort or burning, or using hardening), Luffy's, and Vergo's.

I'm not seeing 'experience' as like...a key factor in why some people are stronger than others in  OP. 45-year-old Diamante seems experienced as hell, acting like he'd seen Conqueror's Haki clashes so many times, but younger far-less-experienced people like the M3 would beat him and experience wouldn't help him at all. Experience doesn't even seem to play a real role in Jozu's proficiency in fighting and why he has the great attributes he has when all of what he's done can be boiled down to him having immense physical strength, good-enough COA to hit Logias, and a DF that offers an amazing defense.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

The disrespect some people have for Vergo is shocking
S1 Vergo mid diff
S2 Either way depending on who you favor 
S3 Luffy Very high diff


----------



## IchijiNijiSanji (Sep 20, 2014)

Vergo knows soru right? I wonder how good it is. S3 considering vergo's personality would lead to a quick loss.


----------



## J★J♥ (Sep 20, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Location: Punk Hazard, starting distance is 50 meters.
> Intel: Full.
> Mindset: Bloodlusted.
> S1: No Gears.
> ...



S1: Vergo kills him
S2: Vergo kills him
S3: Vergo kills him, but will probably bleed a little and forced to Hulk mode


----------



## monkey d ace (Sep 20, 2014)

unrestricted luffy >= vergo >= G2 luffy > base luffy.


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> The disrespect some people have for Vergo is shocking



The disrespect that _everyone_ has for Luffy is appalling. I'm not underestimating Vergo; I'm just giving Luffy credit where it's due.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

Lawl @ 'disrespect', you think Luffy could possibly low-diff the guy who cracked the strongest part of Sanji's body without using the _two_ levels of enhancement he had access to. I get thinking Luffy would solidly win but low-diff is nonsense.


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> Lawl @ 'disrespect', you think Luffy could possibly low-diff the guy who cracked the strongest part of Sanji's leg without using the _two_ levels of enhancement he had access to. I get thinking Luffy would solidly win but low-diff is nonsense.



The raw amount of power between a G2 hit and a G3 hit is gargantuan. And G2 is already significantly above Sanji level. One G3 punch is pretty much lights out for Vergo. G3 Luffy defeats Vergo with the same amount of difficulty he used to beat Blueno, just for clarification in case you have a slightly different concept of "low-diff."


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

An all-out fight between Luffy and Vergo would likely look like the fight between Luffy and Lucci, and given the emphasis on Vergo's durability, he could very well be able to fight after a G3 hit. Lucci fought after getting hit with G3, and to me Vergo is almost like a post-TS Lucci...with better sturdiness and strength than an actual post-TS Lucci would have.


----------



## barreltheif (Sep 20, 2014)

S1: Vergo high diff
S2: Luffy high diff
S3: Luffy mid-high diff


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> An all-out fight between Luffy and Vergo would likely look like the fight between Luffy and Lucci, except given the emphasis on Vergo's durability, he could very well be able to fight after a G3 hit. Lucci fought after getting hit with G3, and to me Vergo is almost like a post-TS Lucci...with better sturdiness and strength than an actual post-TS Lucci would have.



You're not looking at this the right way at all. First of all, Law one-shot Vergo and finished it pretty easily once he got his heart back. Luffy is _no_ less impressive than Law. Second, Vergo was a Vice Admiral. A.K.A. a person that will be forever underneath Luffy in strength. To top it all off, Vergo is hardly comparable to Lucci when you consider that he had much less presence and plot impact. Not to mention that Sanji back in EL wouldn't have lasted nearly as long against Lucci as current Sanji did with Vergo.

If you can't accept this, that just means you're a Vergo wanker or a Luffy hater. Too much evidence is present in support of Luffy.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> An all-out fight between Luffy and Vergo would likely look like the fight between Luffy and Lucci, and given the emphasis on Vergo's durability, he could very well be able to fight after a G3 hit. Lucci fought after getting hit with G3, and to me Vergo is almost like a post-TS Lucci...with better sturdiness and strength than an actual post-TS Lucci would have.



What?Gear 3rd made Chinjao look like shit when the guy took a legendary sword to the head without problems.And for the love of God,I haven't seen Vergo taking attacks the same way with the old guy's head.

Also lets not put attacks from a Gear 2nd Luffy alongside with hardening in the same ballpark with Sanji and Smoker.That would be really bad.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> You're not looking at this the right way at all. First of all, Law one-shot Vergo and finished it pretty easily once he got his heart back.


Because the very nature of Law's DF isn't to one-shot people who don't dodge or block? Ah. 



Roo said:


> Luffy is _no_ less impressive than Law.


? Didn't state or insinuate that he wasn't. However, Luffy does not have a fancy "if you don't dodge or properly block you instantly lose" power like Law. Obviously the fights will play out differently.



Roo said:


> Second, Vergo was a Vice Admiral. A.K.A. a person that will be forever underneath Luffy in strength.


Off feats he's the strongest VA by far barring Garp. This line doesn't have much worth.



Roo said:


> To top it all off, Vergo is hardly comparable to Lucci when you consider that he had much less presence and plot impact.


I was comparing them as combatants and on the level of ability-sets. As far as impact, certainly. Lucci was the Big Bad of that arc while Caesar Clown was of Vergo's, despite Vergo being stronger. Presence is subjective. If Oda didn't 'kill' him off perhaps he'd have made more of an impression on you in Dressrosa or something.



Roo said:


> Not to mention that Sanji back in EL wouldn't have lasted nearly as long against Lucci as current Sanji did with Vergo.


The Sanji-Vergo fight can't have been _that_ long. After Sanji broke his leg the fight would have _quickly_ ended anyway.



Roo said:


> If you can't accept this, that just means you're a Vergo wanker or a Luffy hater. Too much evidence is present in support of Luffy.


Ah I see, I must really despise Luffy to say he'd need high-to-extreme difficulty to defeat an incredibly impressive character. To say that Luffy would beat Vergo without an intense, bloody fight is wanking Vergo. Insightful.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> What?Gear 3rd made Chinjao look like shit when the guy took a legendary sword to the head without problems.And for the love of God,I haven't seen Vergo taking attacks the same way with the old guy's head.


I somehow don't see the whole of Vergo's body taking hits the same way someone's skull does though.



White Hawk said:


> Also lets not put attacks from a Gear 2nd Luffy alongside with hardening in the same ballpark with Sanji and Smoker.That would be really bad.


Well, we had Doflamingo block a barrage of Diable Jambe kicks with his coat. He also blocked a barrage of G2 punches/Jet Gatling with his coat but the punches weren't hardened, maybe that scene will repeat and Luffy will use hardening so we can gauge your statement even better.


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> Ah I see, I must really despise Luffy to say he'd need high-to-extreme difficulty to defeat an incredibly impressive character. To say that Luffy would beat Vergo without an intense, bloody fight is wanking Vergo. Insightful.



>Vergo.
>Incredibly impressive.



I'm done. Vergo has a certain charm about him that makes people want to wank him. He must be the most popular single-arc character since Gin. Only Gin at least had a fucking personality. I guess the audience's standards have fallen.


----------



## zenieth (Sep 20, 2014)

I don't think saying jozu is more physically inclined means his CoA is inherently better.

Haki doesn't have a baseline.

Aisa is a kid who does jackshit

and to this day, she has CoO that shits allllllllll over everybody else.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> >Vergo.
> >Incredibly impressive.
> 
> 
> ...



Yuppp, nothing impressive about his strength feats or beating up long-time Luffy-chaser Smoker or  breaking Sanji i.e Luffy's left hand's strongest part. 

And none of his combat ability has anything to do with his lack of a vibrant personality, lawl.


----------



## zenieth (Sep 20, 2014)

Just going to point out that Mr. 2 has broken sanji's bones before, during alabasta.

It's not definitive that sanji would have lost.

I do believe luffy would have a harder time against vergo than law

but ultimately. Mid difficulty is where Vergo's going to be.

High if no gear 3


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> I somehow don't see the whole of Vergo's body taking hits the same way someone's skull does though.
> 
> 
> Well, we had Doflamingo block a barrage of Diable Jambe kicks with his coat. He also blocked a barrage of G2 punches/Jet Gatling with his coat but the punches weren't hardened, maybe that scene will repeat and Luffy will use hardening so we can gauge your statement even better.



Doflamingo didn't use hardening against Sanji.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> >Vergo.
> >Incredibly impressive.
> 
> 
> ...



So its wanking to assume that Unrestricted Luffy only beats Vergo Very high diff yet its perfectly Logically for base Luffy to be able to beat and unrestricted Vergo?


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

zenieth said:


> Just going to point out that Mr. 2 has broken sanji's bones before, during alabasta.


I thought it was  but I haven't reread it from the start so I could be wrong.



White Hawk said:


> Doflamingo didn't use hardening against Sanji.



You were speaking against putting G2 attacks and Sanji's attacks in the same ballpark, both got blocked by a feather coat. Doflamingo may not have needed to use hardening against Luffy but better safe than sorry.


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> So its wanking to assume that Unrestricted Luffy only beats Vergo Very high diff yet its perfectly Logically for base Luffy to be able to beat and unrestricted Vergo?



Yes. Luffy is strong. You're clearly underestimating him.


----------



## Esdese (Sep 20, 2014)

Scenario 1 : Vergo Rapes 
Scenario 2: Could go either way 
Scenario 3 : Luffy Medium difficulty


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> I thought it was  but I haven't reread it from the start so I could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> You were speaking against putting G2 attacks and Sanji's attacks in the same ballpark, both got blocked by a feather coat. Doflamingo may not have needed to use hardening against Luffy but better safe than sorry.



Doflamingo used a stronger form of defense against Luffy while he didn't do that against Sanji.


----------



## Datassassin (Sep 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Doflamingo used a stronger form of defense against Luffy while he didn't do that against Sanji.


Indeed, but Doflamingo wasn't shown struggling at all against the Jet Gatling, meaning that Luffy wasn't remotely close to breaching it and Doflamingo possibly could've made it work with ordinary COA. Doflamingo was after all supposed to not be underestimating Luffy.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> Yes. Luffy is strong. You're clearly underestimating him.



How is that underestimation?


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> How is that underestimation?



By insisting that trash like Vergo is such a threat to him.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> By insisting that trash like Vergo is such a threat to him.



And Vergo is Trash Because? You basically telling me base luffy can beat Vergo right?


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> And Vergo is Trash Because? You basically telling me base luffy can beat Vergo right?



Duh, that's what I said.

Base Luffy > trash.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> Duh, that's what I said.
> 
> Base Luffy > trash.



Ok cool


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 20, 2014)

S1: Vergo low-diff
S2: Luffy mid-diff
S3: Luffy mid-diff (by hype low-diff)


Dem Vergo-wankers are funny. Their sunny-boy would be down after Red Hawk or Elephant Gatling Gun and there is no fucking way around it only thing you can argue is how many he could take of each. This guy is basically the Don Krieg of the New World. 

Doflamingo himself could barely stand after a hit by Red Hawk and that?s the same guy who takes cannonballs to the face and a whole brigade of diable jambe no sweat yet his weaker subordinate will be able to shrug all this off and clobber a power-house like Luffy...


----------



## Ruse (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> By insisting that trash like Vergo is such a threat to him.



Does that mean Sanji is trash as well since Vergo fractured his leg? Or are we been selective?


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 20, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> S1: Vergo low-diff
> S2: Luffy mid-diff
> S3: Luffy mid-diff (by hype low-diff)


Quick question, so you think Luffy can no/low diff Sanji as well?


----------



## Freechoice (Sep 20, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> S1: Vergo low-diff
> S2: Luffy mid-diff



Do you really think there is that large of a distance between regular Luffy and G2 Luffy?

Enough for it to go from Vergo low diffing him, to Vergo losing mid diff?

Then again... I'm so out of touch when it comes to things like this that you're probably right.


----------



## Patrick (Sep 20, 2014)

Vergo takes S1, while Luffy takes the other two.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 20, 2014)

Datassassin said:


> I don't think Hancock residing in Paradise should be used against her when she certainly could have been to the New World, just with her obligations preventing her from being there in the current era of the story.
> 
> @ Vergo's COA vs Hancock's, they should either be similar or her's is better. As far as application and manipulation of COA is concerned that statement of all haki mastery is bolded for me, unless Oda shows that statement to be a lie. Off feats though the best COA in the series seem like Garp's, Doflamingo's (in large part from blocking the flaming barrage of Sanji-kicks with a feather coat with no visible effort or burning, or using hardening), Luffy's, and Vergo's.
> 
> I'm not seeing 'experience' as like...a key factor in why some people are stronger than others in * OP. 45-year-old Diamante seems experienced as* hell, acting like he'd seen Conqueror's Haki clashes so many times, but younger far-less-experienced people like the M3 would beat him and experience wouldn't help him at all. Experience doesn't even seem to play a real role in Jozu's proficiency in fighting and why he has the great attributes he has when all of what he's done can be boiled down to him having immense physical strength, good-enough COA to hit Logias, and a DF that offers an amazing defense.



To some degree but what you do with that time is also important. It' that same experience that created the astronomical difference between Shanks and Buggy.  EVen if you are 45 and has seen all manner of battles it doesn't automatically translate to your own level and potential.  The M3 have been pushing themselves battle after battle while most of the flamingo crew have not been doing much essentially remaining stagnant, flamingo's own level also attests to that.


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 20, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Quick question, so you think Luffy can no/low diff Sanji as well?



Who knows? I haven?t seen enough from Sanji to judge that but if his overall-level is close to what he?s shown against Vergo than mid-diff could be very possible. Luffy is way superior in all  stats, his haki is pretty much equal- possibly better (conqueror?s haki is still a thing) and he?s much more versatile. 




What said:


> Do you really think there is that large of a distance between regular Luffy and G2 Luffy?
> 
> Enough for it to go from Vergo low diffing him, to Vergo losing mid diff?
> 
> Then again... I'm so out of touch when it comes to things like this that you're probably right.



Yes we?ve seen it in Enies Lobby with Gears Luffy clobbered Blueno without them they were pretty even and the gap between his G2 and base increased if anything- at least that?s what Smoker implied on Punk Hazard.


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

The people using the argument "Vergo got one shot lol" should re-look at the events that led up to that scene. Vergo had just: 

- Outclassed and fractured Sanji's leg without breaking a sweat. 

- Fought Smoker and dealt him some serious damage without using Full Body Haki. 

- Tried to tank Law's attack because that's the way he fights and ended up dying because of his underestimation. 

No one's saying Vergo's stronger than Luffy, but he sure as hell isn't losing to Base Luffy and G2 Luffy is a toss up.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 20, 2014)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Who knows? I haven?t seen enough from Sanji to judge that but if his overall-level is close to what he?s shown against Vergo than mid-diff could be very possible. Luffy is way superior in all  stats, his haki is pretty much equal- possibly better (conqueror?s haki is still a thing) and he?s much more versatile.


Ok, I guess Zoro gets the same treatment as Sanji, as they're not too far apart in strength.


Luke said:


> The people using the argument "Vergo got one shot lol" should re-look at the events that led up to that scene. Vergo had just:
> 
> - Outclassed and fractured Sanji's leg without breaking a sweat.
> 
> ...


That's what I think as well. Not sure if Vergo is dead though.


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> The people using the argument "Vergo got one shot lol" should re-look at the events that led up to that scene. Vergo had just:
> 
> - Outclassed and fractured Sanji's leg without breaking a sweat.
> 
> ...



I don't think thats the way he fights am guessing it was just the thought of Law attacks be able to damage him was inconceivable in his mind.


----------



## Imagine (Sep 20, 2014)

Vergo  

Luffy 

Luffy


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

PirateHunter Eddy said:


> I don't think thats the way he fights am guessing it was just the thought of Law attacks be able to damage him was inconceivable in his mind.



In literally every single one of Vergo's fights he's chosen to tank attacks rather than dodge them, even if he's perfectly capable of dodging (we've seen how fast he is). Tanking is his style.


----------



## Quipchaque (Sep 20, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Ok, I guess Zoro gets the same treatment as Sanji, as they're not too far apart in strength.



Sure cool with me then again this has nothing to do with Luffy vs Vergo.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 20, 2014)

I like how people say that Vergo didn't break a sweat against Sanji when Sanji got 2 clean hits on him.


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> I like how people say that Vergo didn't break a sweat against Sanji when Sanji got 2 clean hits on him.



As I've already said, tanking is Vergo's style. He chooses to tank attacks instead of dodging for the most part. 

And even then, those attacks didn't do a thing to Vergo.


----------



## Bohemian Knight (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> The people using the argument "Vergo got one shot lol" should re-look at the events that led up to that scene. Vergo had just:
> 
> - Outclassed and fractured Sanji's leg without breaking a sweat.
> 
> ...



Agreed. Not to mention that the move Law had to resort to in order to defeat him was pretty much one-shot or no-shot. I can't help but feel that if was that (a tired and beaten down) Law could do there, and that any less power and Vergo would have withstood it.  Just my take.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> I like how people say that Vergo didn't break a sweat against Sanji when Sanji got 2 clean hits on him.


Sanji made Vergo bleed a little (Vergo didn't even try dodging the second blow), then proceeded to crack Sanji's leg with one hit, and beat Smoker not too long after, all without the use of FBH. I'm not saying Luffy won't win, but beating Vergo with mid diff is absurd.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 20, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Sanji made Vergo bleed a little (Vergo didn't even try dodging the second blow), then proceeded to crack Sanji's leg with one hit, and beat Smoker not too long after, all without the use of FBH. I'm not saying Luffy won't win, but beating Vergo with mid diff is absurd.



People are using the "Luffy will solo" Mingo logic I guess.


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

Heavenly Demon said:


> People are using the "Luffy will solo" Mingo logic I guess.



Luffy can't solo Doflamingo because Law already helped him land a direct Red Hawk.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> Luffy can't solo Doflamingo because Law already helped him land a direct Red Hawk.


And even then, Luffy will need a healthy dose of plot on his side to win (ex: Doflamingo using a clone + Bellamy to try and kill Luffy instead of Parasiting him and Overheating his head off).


----------



## Ruse (Sep 20, 2014)

Before this inevitably gets ugly all I'll say is no way is Luffy beating a M3 lvl fighter without gears bearing in mind without them he'd be weaker than Sanji, as for G2 I feel he'd need his higher end G3 moves to take down Vergo who's shown to be a good tanker.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 20, 2014)

Man some massive Luffy underestimation here


----------



## Lord Stark (Sep 20, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Man some massive Luffy underestimation here



Indeed.  Sorry but I can't see Luffy taking down Vergo with _that_ much more effort than Law.  Red hawk had Doffy coughing up blood, Vergo would be in even worse shape than that.
S1: Vergo extreme difficulty
S2: Luffy mid-diff
S3: Luffy mid-diff


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2014)

Vergo beats Base Luffy with mid - high diff.

G2 Luffy can beat Vergo Extreme diff.

unrestricted Luffy vs Unresitricted Vergo results in a win for Luffy High - Extreme diff. Probably more towards high.


----------



## 108CaliberPhoenix (Sep 20, 2014)

Base Luffy beat Vergo? Are you people for real you realize that's saying Gears Luff absolutely fodderizes Smoker and Sanji


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

Base Luffy beating Vergo...

That's the most ridiculous thing I read today.


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> Base Luffy beating Vergo...
> 
> That's the most ridiculous thing I read today.



Some guy in the Bleach Battledome thinks Ulquiorra is only slightly weaker than Yamamoto.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> Some guy in the Bleach Battledome thinks Ulquiorra is only slightly weaker than Yamamoto.



Did you explain to him that Yamamoto destroyed a perfect counter to him with his bare hands?


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Did you explain to him that Yamamoto destroyed a perfect counter to him with his bare hands?



His response is always along the lines of: 

"But R2 grants a huge power boost! He can one shot anyone with Lanza! He can just regenerate from Yamamoto's attacks!"

Some brilliant people in the Bleach section.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 20, 2014)

Dat Luffy wank is strong.

So strong he can low diff smoker and Sanji. What a beast.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> Some guy in the Bleach Battledome thinks Ulquiorra is only slightly weaker than Yamamoto.



Also stronger than RG Byakuya, but we're going off-topic


----------



## Magentabeard (Sep 20, 2014)

Vergo very high
Luffy high
Luffy mid


----------



## NO (Sep 20, 2014)

108CaliberPhoenix said:


> Base Luffy beat Vergo? Are you people for real you realize that's saying Gears Luff absolutely fodderizes Smoker and Sanji





Hachibi said:


> Base Luffy beating Vergo...
> 
> That's the most ridiculous thing I read today.


So, who are the people jumping to conclusions?

1. We have more defense feats for Luffy.
2. Vergo has few defense feats.
3. Luffy's stamina feats are insane.
4. Vergo has few stamina feats.
5. Luffy's speed is still top notch without gears.
6. Vergo's speed really isn't that special.

Luffy can extreme-diff the first scenario. It's just a stamina fight because Vergo does not have amazing combat abilities.

Vergo cracked Sanji's leg, sure, but Sanji is not Luffy in any regard.

Sure, Vergo physically beat down Law a few times, but Law is a glass cannon and Vergo had Law's heart as a crutch. 

Sure, Vergo's CoA is impressive, but Law's CoA is better.

SURE...Vergo beat down Smoker as well, but Smoker left himself PURPOSEFULLY open in order to specifically get Law's heart.

Vergo is so overrated it's sad at this point. When he gets feats that are actually on Luffy/Law's level, we'll talk again, but Vergo is not winning any scenario.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 20, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> So, who are the people jumping to conclusions?



Luffy wankers. 



> 1. We have more defense feats for Luffy.
> 2. Vergo has few defense feats.
> 3. Luffy's stamina feats are insane.
> 4. Vergo has few stamina feats.
> ...



Quality over Quantity my friend. Luffy is the main character, he has more feats then half the characters in this manga combined. 


> Luffy can extreme-diff the first scenario*. It's just a stamina fight because Vergo does not have amazing combat abilities*.



I would love to see Base luffy do the things Vergo did. New flash he can't. 

But good job insulting not only Vergo, but Smoker and Sanji takes some skill to do that. I mean if they were losing to a dude like vergo they must really suck ass, no decent combat skills whatsoever. 


> Vergo cracked Sanji's leg, sure, but Sanji is not Luffy in any regard.



I agree on this. 

Comparing Luffys leg to Sanjis is retarded. Sanjis is significantly better and more durable. 



> Sure, Vergo physically beat down Law a few times, but Law is a glass cannon and Vergo had Law's heart as a crutch.



He had his heart sure, but Law is no glass cannon. 

Do i need to list all the damage law has taken so far? He is still fighting Doflamingo without his Room right now in CQC. 



> Sure, Vergo's CoA is impressive, but Law's CoA is better.



No its not. 


> SURE...Vergo beat down Smoker as well, but Smoker left himself PURPOSEFULLY open in order to specifically get Law's heart.



I don't see how that is excuse. As another poster in this thread said Vergo is trash, and you said he does not have amazing combat ability's. Should of been very easy for a Smoke Logia to grab something out of his coat in a extended battle without this happening to him. 





> Vergo is so overrated it's sad at this point. When he gets feats that are actually on Luffy/Law's level, we'll talk again, but Vergo is not winning any scenario.



So beating Smoker with minimal injuries(Breaking his Jutte with ease), and overpowering Sanji without Hardening Haki+Bamboo(His Main fighting powers) are not Luffy/Law level feats. 

Good to know. 

For future reference what would be Luffy/Law level feats?


----------



## 108CaliberPhoenix (Sep 20, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> So, who are the people jumping to conclusions?
> 
> 1. We have more defense feats for Luffy.
> 2. Vergo has few defense feats.
> ...


Yeah where are those base Luffy feats you speak so highly of he fights almost always with g2 now
Luffy needed g3 to take down DCJ and if he needed it for that he's gonna need gears for Vergo


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 20, 2014)

S1: Vergo mid-diffs.
S2: Can go either way. Slight advantage to Vergo
S3: Luffy high-diffs. 

There's no way Luffy is defeating Doflamingo on his own, so it's illogical to use that form of scaling in this case.


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

Base Luffy sure as hell isn't going to crack Sanji's leg in one blow, that's for sure.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

jayjay32 said:


> 1. We have more defense feats for Luffy.
> 2. Vergo has few defense feats.
> 3. Luffy's stamina feats are insane.
> 4. Vergo has few stamina feats.
> ...



Kaido doesn't have any feat, does that mean Luffy win against him?



> Luffy can extreme-diff the first scenario. It's just a stamina fight because Vergo does not have amazing combat abilities.



Because he didn't crack Sanji's leg and Smoker's jutte. Oh wait.



> Vergo cracked Sanji's leg, sure, but Sanji is not Luffy in any regard.



Sanji's legs are far more powerful than Base Luffy's.



> Sure, Vergo physically beat down Law a few times, but Law is a glass cannon and Vergo had Law's heart as a crutch.



Since when Law is a Glass Canon? Dude managed to fight Doflamingo in CQC twice while Sanji and Luffy were getting trashed by Overheat and Black Knight respectively.



> Sure, Vergo's CoA is impressive, but Law's CoA is better.



Since when?



> SURE...Vergo beat down Smoker as well, but Smoker left himself PURPOSEFULLY open in order to specifically get Law's heart.



Both were near-equal until Smoker got into full retard mode. And if Smoker could defeat Vergo he would do it instead of relying on Law to finish the job.



> Vergo is so overrated it's sad at this point. When he gets feats that are actually on Luffy/Law's level, we'll talk again, but Vergo is not winning any scenario.



No character showed as much feat as Luffy.


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

The way some people hate Luffy is really disturbing. I think you guys are going to have a tough time accepting that he's going to be the strongest at some point.

Vergo will still probably equal G2 Luffy though, right?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> The way some people hate Luffy is really disturbing. I think you guys are going to have a tough time accepting that he's going to be the strongest at some point.
> 
> Vergo will still probably equal G2 Luffy though, right?



So says the person who calls Doflamingos strongest and most trusted subordinate trash.


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

If Vergo is trash, so are Smoker and Sanji. And that's the bottom line.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> The way some people hate Luffy is really disturbing. I think you guys are going to have a tough time accepting that he's going to be the strongest at some point.
> 
> Vergo will still probably equal G2 Luffy though, right?



Calls Doffy's right hand man trash yet tries to claim others are hating the hypocrisy.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> The way some people hate Luffy is really disturbing. I think you guys are going to have a tough time accepting that he's going to be the strongest at some point.
> 
> Vergo will still probably equal G2 Luffy though, right?



>Implying he's already PK level

Please Roo


----------



## PirateHunter Eddy (Sep 20, 2014)

So from what majority are saying, that means people think Luffy>>>Zoro>=Vergo>=Sanji?


----------



## Luke (Sep 20, 2014)

I actually consider Luffy to be stronger than most people do, but I'm not going to go around saying he can beat Vergo without his Gears. That's just crazy. 

That doesn't make me a Luffy hater in any way.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> I actually consider Luffy to be stronger than most people do, but I'm not going to go around saying he can beat Vergo without his Gears. That's just crazy.
> 
> That doesn't make me a Luffy hater in any way.



Same case here, he isn't far form Jozu/Dofla level, but this level can't no diff a M3 (Doflamingo is a special case).


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Scenario 1: Vergo, high-diff.
2: Luffy, high-diff.
3. Luffy, mid-diff


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

Roo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...






*Spoiler*: __ 



Luffy can't solo Doflamingo so no.


----------



## B Rabbit (Sep 20, 2014)

Luffy can't solo Doflamingo at this point.


----------



## Suit (Sep 20, 2014)

Luffy _can't_ solo DD. What's your point?


----------



## B Rabbit (Sep 20, 2014)

Just going along with the last couple pages.

Although Law will deal some good damage then Luffy wins with some PIS.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 20, 2014)

He can't solo anymore since they hitted Dofla with a combo together (Shambles + Red Hawk)


----------



## Captain Altintop (Sep 20, 2014)

Vergo is around Zoro's level, pretty much equals imo.

Zoro is the better fighter against Luffy because of his swords, but Vergo has good Haki knowledge which will lead to a pure physical battle. 

In the end, Luffy wins "very high" diff. (between high and extreme, closer to latter).


----------



## trance (Sep 20, 2014)

S1: Vergo with about mid difficulty.
S2: Vergo with about high difficulty.
S3: Luffy with very high-extreme difficulty.


----------



## Magentabeard (Sep 20, 2014)

Luke said:


> If Vergo is trash, so are Smoker and Sanji. And that's the bottom line.



That's how they've been portrayed lately


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 20, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Sanji made Vergo bleed a little (Vergo didn't even try dodging the second blow), then proceeded to crack Sanji's leg with one hit, and beat Smoker not too long after, all without the use of FBH. I'm not saying Luffy won't win, but beating Vergo with mid diff is absurd.



It's not that Vergo didn't try to dodge.They were clashing and Sanji managed to get a clean hit.



And let's not compare Gear Luffy's firepower with Sanji's.That's absurd,not Luffy mid difficulting Vergo.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 21, 2014)

I personally don't see Vergo giving current Luffy more than mid to high difficulty, but I do agree with Datassassin when it comes to how impressive the former is.  Vergo bested Sanji, defeated Smoker, and mostly outclassed Law all around the same time.  He has a very high level of physical prowess, is a great hand to hand combatant, is extremely fast (he kept up with and perhaps even outpaced Law's Shambles technique), and has very powerful Haki.



Luke said:


> The people using the argument "Vergo got one shot" should re-look at the events that led up to that scene. Vergo had just:
> 
> - Outclassed and fractured Sanji's leg without breaking a sweat.
> 
> ...





Issho D Tea said:


> That's what I think as well. Not sure if Vergo is dead though.



Agreed.  If he dodges that attack, which he's capable of, Law quite possibly (and IMO does) loses that fight.

I've also wondered if Vergo is really dead.  It would be pretty intense if the Strawhats and Law started to get the upper hand, and suddenly we see Vergo arrive on Dressrosa heading towards the battlefield.


----------



## Suit (Sep 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I personally don't see Vergo giving current Luffy more than mid to high difficulty, but I do agree with Datassassin when it comes to how impressive the former is.  Vergo bested Sanji, defeated Smoker, and mostly outclassed Law all around the same time.  He has a very high level of physical prowess, is a great hand to hand combatant, is extremely fast (he kept up with and perhaps even outpaced Law's Shambles technique), and has very powerful Haki.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If Vergo showed up right now, Sabo would stomp him. Besides, Vergo was cut in half. Unlike Pell, we actually saw the death blow land. Now if he _is_ still alive, it won't matter anyway, for reasons previously stated.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 21, 2014)

I think how much difficulty Vergo would give Sabo depends on how strong the latter is exactly.  I don't see him giving Sabo any more than around mid difficulty, but I don't see him giving Sabo any less than around low difficulty.


----------



## Suit (Sep 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I think how much difficulty Vergo would give Sabo depends on how strong the latter is exactly.  I don't see him giving Sabo any more than around mid difficulty, but I don't see him giving Sabo any less than around low difficulty.



Sabo would probably low-diff. Admirals would stomp him.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 21, 2014)

I think that depends on the Admiral.  I don't think Vergo is on the level of any Admiral, but I can see him holding his own against some of them for at least a period of time.


----------



## Suit (Sep 21, 2014)

All Admirals are relatively the same. They have to be considering the story needs them to be.

And no, Vergo would get utterly annihilated by any Admiral. There's no way he's holding his own against them.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I think that depends on the Admiral.  I don't think Vergo is on the level of any Admiral, but I can see him holding his own against some of them for at least a period of time.



Shut up           .


----------



## Captain Altintop (Sep 21, 2014)

Any Admiral would low or mid-low diff Vergo depending on mindset etc.


----------



## Luke (Sep 21, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> Shut up           .



Another brilliant argument from White Hawk, ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I think that depends on the Admiral.  I don't think Vergo is on the level of any Admiral, but I can see him holding his own against some of them for at least a period of time.


If by period of time you mean 0.2 seconds, then yeah, Vergo is definitely no pushover to an Admiral.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 21, 2014)

How the hell did this turn into a Admiral thread?


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 21, 2014)

Luke said:


> I actually consider Luffy to be stronger than most people do, but I'm not going to go around saying he can beat Vergo without his Gears. That's just crazy.
> 
> That doesn't make me a Luffy hater in any way.



What's crazy is that people think he can take Gear 3rd attacks.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 21, 2014)

White Hawk said:


> What's crazy is that people think he can take Gear 3rd attacks.



I'm thinking people more believe along the lines he can dodge them.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 21, 2014)

Roo said:


> All Admirals are relatively the same. They have to be considering the story needs them to be.



I don't think there's a big difference between them, but I don't think they're all neck and neck either.

Why does the story need them to be equal in terms of power?



Roo said:


> And no, Vergo would get utterly annihilated by any Admiral. There's no way he's holding his own against them.



I respectfully disagree.  I would say the Luffy coming into post time skip was, at most, around a decent amount stronger than Vergo.  Rayleigh felt like Luffy, around 6 months ago, was capable of fending off an invasion like pre time skip Sabaody.  That invasion was by Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.  Yet, Rayleigh that Luffy was capable of doing that around 6 months ago.  This leads me to believe that the Luffy coming into post time skip could at least put up a good/pretty good fight against most Admirals.  So if Vergo wasn't more than around a decent amount weaker than Luffy at the time, it stands to reason that he could at least hold his own against some Admirals for a period of time.

Besides that, the Admirals haven't owned anyone on Vergo's level, so I see no reason to believe that they could defeat him with no difficulty (which is what I assume you meant when you said they would stomp him).  I also believe Doflamingo is Admiral level, and Vergo is seemingly his 1st or 2nd most powerful subordinate.  I don't see Doflamingo defeating Vergo with any less than low to mid difficulty (if even that).


----------



## Suit (Sep 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I don't think there's a big difference between them, but I don't think they're all neck and neck either.
> 
> Why does the story need them to be equal in terms of power?
> 
> ...



Escaping a Sabaody-type invasion isn't that difficult for Luffy's level. That doesn't mean that he would stand a chance of winning. Admittedly, any Admiral would have their hands full with the M3. That would give the rest of the crew enough time for an escape plan.

Also, don't forget Kuzan took Jozu's arm off in a single move. I guarantee you Jozu would pummel Vergo like a little bitch, so yes. An Admiral would utterly annihilate Vergo.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 21, 2014)

Hachibi said:


> How the hell did this turn into a Admiral thread?



Thats what I'm thinking


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 21, 2014)

Gohara said:


> I respectfully disagree.  I would say the Luffy coming into post time skip was, at most, around a decent amount stronger than Vergo.  Rayleigh felt like Luffy, around 6 months ago, was capable of fending off an invasion like pre time skip Sabaody. * That invasion was by Kizaru, Kuma, Sentoumaru, several PXs or so, and many marines.*  Yet, Rayleigh that Luffy was capable of doing that around 6 months ago.  This leads me to believe that the Luffy coming into post time skip could at least put up a good/pretty good fight against most Admirals.  So if Vergo wasn't more than around a decent amount weaker than Luffy at the time, it stands to reason that he could at least hold his own against some Admirals for a period of time.
> .



The straw hats couldn't even escape from their dilemma not even escape.  Rayleigh trained luffy to improve his survival.

Effectively escaping from an admiral is a apart of surviving.  

Sometimes you have to know when to run but it order to run from some people you also need to be at a certain level of strength.  Ace didn't run as he's now 6 feet under the ground.  So you see it has it's importance.


----------



## Luke (Sep 21, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> Ace didn't run as he's now 6 feet under the ground.  So you see it has it's importance.



Yeah but that's just because he's Ace


----------



## Gohara (Sep 21, 2014)

@ Roo and Canute.

He would have to deal with a lot more than just an Admiral, though.  So if he can fend off an Admiral as well as the others who invaded Sabaody, then I don't see him not putting up a pretty good fight against an Admiral.  Plus, that was Luffy from around 6 months ago.  He was even stronger coming into post time skip.

I'm not sure how Jozu and Vergo compare.  To me, it depends on how strong Jozu is exactly.  The strength of Jozu and Vista is pretty unclear.  At my highest estimation of Jozu, I think he would defeat Vergo, but even in that scenario I don't see him defeating him with any less than mid to high difficulty.

Aokiji's attack against Jozu was a surprise attakc.


----------



## Suit (Sep 21, 2014)

It was a surprise attack. But that doesn't matter. Vergo doesn't have the stats to keep up with an Admiral at all whatsoever. They are worlds ahead of him.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 21, 2014)

I respectfully disagree.  Nothing the Admirals have done leads me to believe that Vergo can't keep up with them.

However, I respect your views even if we disagree.


----------



## Suit (Sep 21, 2014)

-Changing the climate of an island after a 10 day long fight.
-Taking Whitebeard's island splitter without even losing consciousness.
-Destroying a mangrove tree (dozens of times taller and wider than a skyscraper, by the way) with a casual kick.

Sorry, but Vergo isn't impressive at all by comparison. Not in the very least.


----------



## Peppoko (Sep 22, 2014)

> S1: No Gears.


Vergo wins high-diff, without gears Luffy can only rely on his haki and Vergo seemed to have superior haki.



> S2: G2 only.
> S3: No restrictions.


Luffy wins both scenarios with extreme-diff. Gear 3 won't do any good since Vergo should be fast enough to dodge it.

I still think Vergo was a really strong opponent, it's just that he was up against Law the hax god.


----------



## Gohara (Sep 22, 2014)

@ Roo.

None of that really tells us how much difficulty Vergo would be able to give them.  Especially since the only thing that can be quantified and compared to Vergo is pre time skip Akainu's durability, which still wouldn't mean the latter would defeat the former with no difficulty.

On a side note, Kizaru used his Light Fruit, so whether or not it was a casual kick is a debatable point.


----------



## maupp (Sep 29, 2014)

>Almost 20 fecking 15(2015)
>Almost 2 years since Vergo got trashed by Law
>Yet the dude is still wanked.
> :rofl.  
>Un fecking belieavable 

And the Luffy under estimation by some in here is almost disturbing.  

By the way, has there ever been a character that kept being wanked and given excuses as much as Vergo after being utterly trashed . This is unprecedented. Somehow, this Vergo guy is still seen as a threat to guys on a level than someone who completely stomped him the moment he didn't have his heart as a clutch.


----------



## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

I guess the fact that he took out Sanji and Smoker without even going all out doesn't mean much.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> I guess the fact that he took out Sanji and Smoker without even going all out doesn't mean much.



Nah Luke as soon as someone gets defeated they are fodder 

Plus Luffy like Law has a one shot haxx finisher


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> I guess the fact that he took out Sanji and Smoker without even going all out doesn't mean much.



You forget Luke Sanji and Smoker are barley above Franky level.

So punking them is no big deal.


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> I guess the fact that he took out Sanji and Smoker without even going all out doesn't mean much.



He didn't take out Sanji and Smoker wasn't fighting like usual.


----------



## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> He didn't take out Sanji and Smoker wasn't fighting like usual.



Tanking two direct hits from Sanji and thn casually fracutring his leg is at the very least besting him. If the fight would have gone on, Sanji would be dead. 

Despite that, Vergo still beat Smoker handily without going all out.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 29, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> He didn't take out Sanji and Smoker wasn't fighting like usual.



He dealt with Sanji without using his main powers. Its like Zoro throwing away his swords and still trolling someone. 

And in the case of Smoker he was fighting normally just stupid(from a outside perspective), as vergo was a better haki user so using his devil fruit for increased mobility was not really worth it like it usually is . Vergo proved it did not matter anyway when he broke his jutte, and his ass with a simple swing of his wooden stick.


----------



## Dellinger (Sep 29, 2014)

^Smoker did not use his fruit for mobility.He just expanded his smoke,aka he became a bigger target for Vergo.

And I fail to see why the heck people bring up Sanji and Smoker.They have nothing comparable to Luffy's stronger techniques.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 29, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> You forget Luke Sanji and Smoker are barley above Franky level.
> 
> So punking them is no big deal.




I should vist this section more often.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 29, 2014)

If i try to understand why people believe Vergo is close to Luffy is because Vergo fractured Sanji's leg and was playing with Smoker makes him equal to or slightly below Luffy cuz the other two are close to Luffy? Am i getting it right?


----------



## Canute87 (Sep 29, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> He dealt with Sanji without using his main powers. Its like Zoro throwing away his swords and still trolling someone.
> 
> And in the case of Smoker he was fighting normally just stupid(from a outside perspective), as vergo was a better haki user so using his devil fruit for increased mobility was not really worth it like it usually is . Vergo proved it did not matter anyway when he broke his jutte, and his ass with a simple swing of his wooden stick.



His haki is his main power.

Vergo poined out that the way smoker was fighting was unlike him which can only mean he was letting himself get hit...ask me why i don't  don't know.


----------



## Lawliet (Sep 29, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> His haki is his main power.
> 
> Vergo poined out that the way smoker was fighting was unlike him which can only mean he was letting himself get hit...ask me why i don't  don't know.



He was trying to get Law's heart.


----------



## Ruse (Sep 30, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> He didn't take out Sanji and Smoker wasn't fighting like usual.



The only reason he didn't take out Sanji was because their fight was interrupted  Sanji even knew what would've happened if it carried on:


----------



## LyricalMessiah (Sep 30, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> The only reason he didn't take out Sanji was because their fight was interrupted  Sanji even knew what would've happened if it carried on:



Pretty much. Sanji would be cooking his cannibal crew mates his own bones.


----------



## November (Sep 30, 2014)

S1 Vergo Wins
S2 and S3 Ruffy wins


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 30, 2014)

Canute87 said:


> His haki is his main power.
> 
> Vergo poined out that the way smoker was fighting was unlike him which can only mean he was letting himself get hit...ask me why i don't  don't know.



Yes Vergos powerful haki(which was emphasised by C.C, doflamingo, and vergo himself) and bamboo are his main skills. Neither of which he used against Sanji.

My point is Smoker did not just throw himself at vergo and let vergo hit him multiple times. He was trying to get laws heart which the best way to do that of course is with his logia ability. 

If you can't even grab something out of vergos coat with the extra mobility granted by a gas logia without getting your ass rekt then your hardly up to snuff to give vergo a true fight. its not a good look. Does sanji need to take a Ashura to the chest just to grab Zoros bandana(which zoro does not even know sanjis trying to get). I would think not.


----------



## GIORNO (Oct 7, 2014)

Vergo 3/3.


----------



## Monster (Oct 7, 2014)

Luffy clears.


----------



## Luke (Oct 7, 2014)

Giorno said:


> Vergo 3/3.



You're goddamn right


----------



## GIORNO (Oct 7, 2014)

Always am Luke, always am.


----------

