# Kirby Vs. Touhou



## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

1. Kirby (Dreamland 1, 2, 3 & Crystal Shards) Vs. Reimu

2. Meta Knight Vs. Youmu

3. Marx Vs. Flandre Scarlet

4. Galacta Knight and Dark Matter (civilization) Vs. Touhouverse

5. Kirbyverse Vs. Touhouverse

Location for scenarios 1, 2, & 3: Dreamland

Location for scenario 5: Fountain of Dreams


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## Weather (Oct 28, 2011)

> 1. Kirby (Dreamland 1,2, 3 & Crystal Shards) Vs. Reimu



Can Kirby bypass Fantasy Heaven?



> 2. Meta Knight Vs. Youmu




Speed feats for Meta Knight?




> 3. Marx Vs. Flandre Scarlet



Feats and speed for Marx? Can he overcome Flandre's regeneration?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

1. Does it help if Kirby nukes Reimu before she activate her final spell? 

2.  I'll look into that.

3. Marx can turn into his soul when his body is killed and create a black hole, I'll look into some other feats/abilities.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> 1. Does it help if Kirby nukes Reimu before she activate her final spell?



He'll need speed feats for that. Very good ones.


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## sonic546 (Oct 28, 2011)

Obligatory post.


In any case, speed feats for Kirby?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

Thats also true, he should have access to the warp star so speed wont be much of an issue. (Reactions though....)

To be honest from what i have seen Meta Knight should be as fast if not a little slower then Youmu. (His combat speed not movement)

Also regular Marx can create black holes and teleport. (did some quick research.)


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 28, 2011)

Stroev Kirby skullfucks.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

What are Meta Knight's speed feats? Youmu should be massively hypersonic at the very least, most likely much faster.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

High speed attacks and he is able to keep up with the warp star in one of the games. (not sure about this, i know he kept up with wheely in super star/Ultra. But he should have had a feat like that somewhere.)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> High speed attacks and he is able to keep up with the warp star in one of the games. (not sure about this, i know he kept up with wheely in super star/Ultra. But he should have had a feat like that.)



Hm... more specifics would be good. Remilia orbited the moon faster than the sunlight could burn her. Aya is stated immediately afterwords to be faster and Youmu can blitz Aya effortlessly if StB is any indication.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

Warp Star in many of the games is flying to other worlds and other countries/areas of Pop Star in a couple seconds.


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## DemongGodOfChaos (Oct 28, 2011)

They don't fight.

They all dance to Bad Apple.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

^^^


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

Hm... seeing the feat in question would probably be helpful, then.

Feats for Dark Matter and Galacta Knight would probably be helpful too. I recall there being enough Dark Matter in Crystal Shards to create a planet of unknown size, but I haven't played the other games it appears in.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

1. Galacta Knight is stronger and faster then Meta Knight going by his back story, Meta Knight only beat him with PIS.

2. For the Dark matter question. 

3. Im still looking for that feat, but for now if we count Meta Knight's version of the Super Star Ultra adventure then Meta Knight is as fast as Warp Star. (Which was flying to planets in a couple second in Milky Way Wishes/Meta Knightmare Ultra)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> 1. Galacta Knight is stronger and faster then Meta Knight going by his back story, Meta Knight only beat him with PIS.



That's something, at least, though until we've established just how strong and fast Meta Knight is I'll leave him alone.



> 2. For the Dark matter question.



Possession seems like the main threat, especially since (AFAIK) Touhou has yet to show anything like it, which means no resistance feats. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure it hasn't worked against characters as powerful as the majority of the cast. Numbers shouldn't be an issue given the sheer AoE shown by Suika alone. 



> 3. Im still looking for that feat, but for now if we count Meta Knight's version of the Super Star Ultra adventure then Meta Knight is as fast as Warp Star. (Which was flying to planets in a couple second in Milky Way Wishes/Meta Knightmare Ultra)



That would be pretty damn fast, though I'd still like to see the feat in question. Would also provide good speed scaling for Galacta Knight, though Kaguya is much faster than Youmu when using her powers.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

Well Dark Matter in general were attacking Ribbon while moving across the solar system and the speed they were going was most likely faster then light. (02 makes these Miracle Matter and the fodder Dark matter pitifully weak because it's the leader/creator.)

Moving to other planets in the world map. @0:15

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbSqQeEp1S8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL95CC29C32A72CC61[/YOUTUBE]

Meta Knight has the cutscene version so it should count. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLD23z8haf0[/YOUTUBE]


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Well Dark Matter in general were attacking Ribbon while moving across the solar system and the speed they were going was most likely faster then light. (02 makes these Miracle Matter and the fodder Dark matter pitifully weak because it's the leader/creator.)



They were obviously moving at high speed, though the scaling is all kinds of messed up in that cutscene, since the three blobs of Dark Matter that chase her look country sized when detaching from the cloud around the planet, even though they should only be a few feet wide in reality.



> Moving to other planets in the world map. @0:15
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbSqQeEp1S8&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL95CC29C32A72CC61[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> ...



Yeah, I was about to say that using a level select screen as evidence for speed might be a bit iffy. Meta Knight's looks perfectly legitimate, though I'm not sure how easily you can establish a speed given the unclear size of the planets or the distances between them.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

Well the planets are that small do to the distance but in general kirby planets are usually the same size.

Also Dark matter are shape shifters they probably shrank while chasing her.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 28, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Well the planets are that small do to the distance but in general kirby planets are usually the same size.



The planets are generally the same size, yeah, but we don't know how big that is. 



> Also Dark matter are shape shifters they probably shrank while chasing her.



True, I didn't consider that. IIRC the entirety of the Dark Matter planet came from inside Queen Ripple. Then again, I dunno why they'd bother shrinking down when being country sized would have made things much easier. PIS, I suppose.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

They would have been bashing through planets they if they stayed country sized. 

So yeah PIS so Ribbon could get her re-entry feat.

Well the idea does help with the scale so i should ask someone to calc this since i have no way to read the amount of pixels on my version of GIMP for some reason.

EDIT: Also technically Sword Kirby was used to fight off Meta Knight in most of the games so that should Help Kirby in combat speed possibly? 9powerscaling though since in the canon it's usually Sword Kirby that beats Meta Knight)


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 28, 2011)

Shameless bump.

So in all honesty how does Meta hold up here?

Also Marx should be able to travel through space also without much effort needed. (Also shows his abilities.)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am8M9D8Vedg&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> They would have been bashing through planets they if they stayed country sized.
> 
> So yeah PIS so Ribbon could get her re-entry feat.



Maybe, if they were indeed country sized. That depends on the size of Ripple Star.



> EDIT: Also technically Sword Kirby was used to fight off Meta Knight in most of the games so that should Help Kirby in combat speed possibly? 9powerscaling though since in the canon it's usually Sword Kirby that beats Meta Knight)



That would help, though I'm not sure how much, since Reimu fought a (debatable) laser timer in SSiB. She lost, but that was due to Yorihime's hax and a general unwillingness to go all out, not because she was too slow to keep up.



ShikiYakumo said:


> So in all honesty how does Meta hold up here?



Dunno. Youmu doesn't have many feats besides her speed and her Last Word generating attacks of infinite width. Her swords are hyped to be able to cut through just about anything, though. One of them anyway.



> Also Marx should be able to travel through space also without much effort needed. (Also shows his abilities.)
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am8M9D8Vedg&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]



Flandre could probably fly/survive in space if she didn't have to worry about the sunlight incinerating her, but she doesn't need to since Marx's attacks can't reach her from space. I don't see much of anything that would bother her in that video, really, especially with regeneration. Her ability is basically an instant kill and she can easily hit a shooting star with it, so even without powerscaling she should win.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm going to say I was wrong about Marx's soul coming out of Marx after he was killed, because of the fact that he made a wish to NOVA so he could become stronger. (Plot of Milkyway Wishes)

Marx should be able to just fly to space though, considering he's a high tier in the Kirbyverse.

Another set of powers Meta has is his regen (an ability that was standard for him during Meta Knightmare) and Mach tornado. (it's equal to crash Kirby in power but slightly slower do to Meta Knight needing to spin so fast he creates two other high speed tornados to cover the area.)


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## Unlosing Ranger (Oct 29, 2011)

Plasma kirby is broken.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Marx should be able to just fly to space though, considering he's a high tier in the Kirbyverse. (But mostly do to how insane he is.)



He could, but I don't see what that would accomplish. He doesn't have anything that will reach Flandre from space, and she can't follow him or the sun will burn her alive. It's a stalemate unless she can still draw down his eye from that far away, and there's no proof either way that she can.



> Another set of powers Meta has is his regen (an ability that was standard for him during Meta Knightmare) and Mach tornado. (it's equal to crash Kirby in power but slightly slower do to Meta Knight needing to spin so fast he creates two other high speed tornados to cover the area.)



How potent is his regeneration?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Well it heals nearly all of his health. (depends on how much energy he has stored up in gameplay)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Well it heals nearly all of his health. (depends on how much energy he has stored up in gameplay)



That's frustratingly difficult to quantify. Then again, Youmu's speed is sufficient to dice him into pieces in an instant, so if she's in a position to land a fatal blow it probably won't help.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Yeah that is true.

Doubtful that will happen though do to Meta's massive speed abilities.

Crap, forgot to mention the Dimensional Cape.

Basically Meta Knight's cape is able to warp space and teleport him. (This should pose sufficient danger to Youmu.)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

Teleportation isn't something she hasn't dealt with before. Reimu, Yukari, and Sakuya can all do it.

For now I'm undecided on the first two. I'd go with Flandre most likely beating Marx and the Touhouverse toppling Galacta Knight and Dark Matter.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

So how far do Galacta and the Dark Matter get?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> So how far do Galacta and the Dark Matter get?



Not sure about Galacta due to him having somewhat uncertain stats like Meta Knight. There's too much hax for him to get very far, though.

Dark Matter does better due to mass possession and numerical superiority. Still too much hax, but it probably won't lose without the high/top tiers getting involved.

We can debate more later, if you like. I need some sleep first.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Alright, i'll be waiting, in the mean time i need to do some more research on the Kirby side.

EDIT: added another battle


*Spoiler*: _EDIT #2 spoilers from Return to Dreamland_ 



 Just learned the Kirbyverse recently gained a universal cosmic being in Kirby's Return to Dream Land. Basically the guy was using Kirby, Waddle Dee, Meta Knight, and King Dedede to get a crown which grants him enough power to control the entire universe. (it is said to posses limitless power) (NOTE: Kirbyverse is potentially a multiverse) Magolor also could manipulate dimensions and create dimensional rifts, which he proceeds to travel through them. He covered all of Popstar in a magical field which was probably manipulating the planet itself. (he did this casually as soon as he put on the crown)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

Alright I'm back, though I don't see the point of the last match if Kirby has a universal. Shinki is the only character that even reaches solar system level by feats.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

He didn't really have any speed feats to be honest. But then again every other major Kirby villain is a planetary threat and Shinki might solo them. (Not sure if she can take them all at once)

EDIT: anyway how well would she do against all of the planetary threats? (Zero/02, Nightmare, NOVA (should be the strongest Kirby character but by feats he is only planetary), etc.)


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## Weather (Oct 29, 2011)

Also how Kirbyverse deal with Yuyuko's ability and Kaguya's immortality+Time abilities who should be above Sakuya's?



> He didn't really have any speed feats to be honest. But then again every other major Kirby villain is a planetary threat and Shinki might solo them. (Not sure if she can take them all at once)
> 
> EDIT: anyway how well would she do against all of the planetary threats?



Dunno.

Eirin is Planetary by feats as well (given her charm could encompass the Earth in a barrier and her claim of having stronger ones.)

Suika is Moon level at least and likely higher given the ease she did that.

And don't forget Reimu's plot armor 

Oh and Yorihime's Fan which can affect at the atomic level.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Nightmare mind rapes Yuyuko and Kaguya on a planetary level. 

Dyna Blade blitzes Sakuya. 

02 drowns the world in permanent darkness and Nightmare starts to mind rape and everyone else will have a grand ol' time. 

Also NOVA gives everyone in the Kirbyverse one wish.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> He didn't really have any speed feats to be honest. But then again every other major Kirby villain is a planetary threat and Shinki might solo them. (Not sure if she can take them all at once)
> 
> EDIT: anyway how well would she do against all of the planetary threats? (Zero/02, Nightmare, NOVA (should be the strongest Kirby character but by feats he is only planetary), etc.)



Haven't played enough Kirby games, so I'll need a summary of each one and their abilities.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Haven't played enough Kirby games, so I'll need a summary of each one and their abilities.



Nightmare has the power to mind rape everyone on a planetary scale with nightmares but the Star Rod was keeping him from doing that. (He absorbed the power from the Fountain of Dream so he would surpass the Star Rod anti mind rape powers how ever the Star Rod was his weakness basically.)

Zero/02 is the leader of Dark matter and he can create enough to cover planets and take over the entire population.

NOVA is a wish granting being, he can give everyone in the verse one wish. (Powerscaling he is above everyone.)

Magolor in his base wearing the Crow is planetary. (trapped Pop Star in a planetary barrier just by putting on the crown)

Drawcia turned Pop Star into a world of balls with a paint brush.

Looking at other villains at the moment will get back to you on the rest.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

ok i was wrong on Dark Nebula never mind.


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## Weather (Oct 29, 2011)

BTW how are we on the individual fights?



> Dyna Blade blitzes Sakuya.



How fast was Dyna?



> Nightmare mind rapes Yuyuko and Kaguya on a planetary level.



Kaguya has the fastest reactions in the Touhouverse thanks to her ability, and she is easily above Sakuya in time manipulation.

How fast can Nightmare act?



> 02 drowns the world in permanent darkness and Nightmare starts to mind rape and everyone else will have a grand ol' time



Yukari can easily teleport everyone away to another dimension and Reimu can use Fantasy Heaven.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Nightmare has the power to mind rape everyone on a planetary scale with nightmares but the Star Rod was keeping him from doing that. (He absorbed the power from the Fountain of Dream so he would surpass the Star Rod anti mind rape powers how ever the Star Rod was his weakness basically.)



Don't you need to be asleep to experience nightmares? Doesn't seem like it would be a problem unless he also has mass hypnosis, and just about all of the Imperishable Night cast is immune to the Moon's insanity effect, which is fatal to humans according to Suika.



> Zero/02 is the leader of Dark matter and he can create enough to cover planets and take over the entire population.



So basically nothing we didn't already cover.



> NOVA is a wish granting being, he can give everyone in the verse one wish. (Powerscaling he is above everyone.)



Seems like a glass cannon, since Marx crashing into him was enough to blow him apart.



> Magolor in his base wearing the Crow is planetary. (trapped Pop Star in a planetary barrier just by putting on the crown)



I thought you said he was universal?

Oh, and Kaguya's abilities aren't like Sakuya's, Weather. The eternity aspect negates change, which is similar to time stop but not the same, and the instantaneous portion is simply acting in a time frame too small to measure.


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## Weather (Oct 29, 2011)

> Oh, and Kaguya's abilities aren't like Sakuya's, Weather. The eternity aspect negates change, which is similar to time stop but not the same, and the instantaneous portion is simply acting in a time frame too small to measure.



Ah right... I forgot thanks.

Also can we include Seihou into this?, since it's TECHNICALLY in the same verse-multiverse? (VIVIT appearing in Gensokyo and all that)


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## Gomu (Oct 29, 2011)

All I know is, in terms of speed. Kirby himself has exceptional reactions. Speed-wise he can use the warp stars (FTL), and has reacted to characters on the range of Massively Hypersonic (Marx, Marx Soul, Zero), often fighting in space. Kirby has enough fire power and reacts to dodge their attacks and defend against them. There are a lot of reality warpers in Kirby, from the many forms of Zero (Dark Matter), Drawcia, Yin Yarn, etc. Kirby also has an arsenal of abilities, including but not limited to turning into a jet, wheels, crash (an extremely powerful explosion), beams, etc.

They also have a time manipulators (Nova) who can also grant wishes to those who find him and it is strongly hinted that it's a race as well. Many of the bosses are able to summon up things like black holes, are able to freeze opponents to sub-zero temperatures. Warriors like Galacta Knight are stronger than Meta Knight (who has easily been shown on par with Kirby or even better than him in terms of combat, though that's a difference in opinion). They also have a multitude of ships that can move at light speed travel and have massively powerful weapons (ships like Halberd or the new Lor Starcutter). 

All final bosses are either a planetary or universal threat.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Don't you need to be asleep to experience nightmares? Doesn't seem like it would be a problem unless he also has mass hypnosis, and just about all of the Imperishable Night cast is immune to the Moon's insanity effect, which is fatal to humans according to Suika.



Not really, he just in general mind rapes them by forcing nightmares into their heads.



> So basically nothing we didn't already cover.



Pretty much.



> Seems like a glass cannon, since Marx crashing into him was enough to blow him apart.



True but the fact he is giving everyone access to a wish is going to make it hard for them since they can make him indestructible with a wish.



> I thought you said he was universal?



These versions are universal (the amped up forms that he takes.)


*Spoiler*: __ 









His base form is my avatar, just add the crown on his head.



> Oh, and Kaguya's abilities aren't like Sakuya's, Weather. The eternity aspect negates change, which is similar to time stop but not the same, and the instantaneous portion is simply acting in a time frame too small to measure.





Weather said:


> BTW how are we on the individual fights?



Marx and Flandre stalemated, Marx is too fast.

Meta Knight has the potential to end Youmu but his feats are iffy.

Dark matter and galacta lose after the high tiers get involved.

Kirby Vs. Reimu pretty much might end with the shrine maiden getting nuked unless she activates Fantasy heaven



> How fast was Dyna?



Massively hypersonic. She is flying so fast that not even Meta Knight can keep up.



> Kaguya has the fastest reactions in the Touhouverse thanks to her ability, and she is easily above Sakuya in time manipulation.



that helps because? 



> How fast can Nightmare act?



He mind rapes from space no one would really notice him since they are dealing with the other heavy hitters, so his speed wont matter even if he gets a wish power up from NOVA.



> Yukari can easily teleport everyone away to another dimension and Reimu can use Fantasy Heaven.



Magolor opens up a portal to their dimension.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Not really, he just in general mind rapes them by forcing nightmares into their heads.



Any feats that demonstrate this ability in action?



> True but the fact he is giving everyone access to a wish is going to make it hard for them since they can make him indestructible with a wish.



While we're on the subject of abilities that skirt dangerously close to NLFs, couldn't Keine just negate the wishes ever being made by rewriting history?



> These versions are universal (the amped up forms that he takes.)
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



But if the Crown is the source of his power, why wouldn't his base form also be universal with it?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Gomu said:


> All I know is, in terms of speed. Kirby himself has exceptional reactions. Speed-wise he can use the warp stars (FTL), and has reacted to characters on the range of Massively Hypersonic (Marx, Marx Soul, Zero), often fighting in space. Kirby has enough fire power and reacts to dodge their attacks and defend against them. There are a lot of reality warpers in Kirby, from the many forms of Zero (Dark Matter), Drawcia, Yin Yarn, etc. Kirby also has an arsenal of abilities, including but not limited to turning into a jet, wheels, crash (an extremely powerful explosion), beams, etc.
> 
> They also have a time manipulators (Nova) who can also grant wishes to those who find him and it is strongly hinted that it's a race as well. Many of the bosses are able to summon up things like black holes, are able to freeze opponents to sub-zero temperatures. Warriors like Galacta Knight are stronger than Meta Knight (who has easily been shown on par with Kirby or even better than him in terms of combat, though that's a difference in opinion). They also have a multitude of ships that can move at light speed travel and have massively powerful weapons (ships like Halberd or the new Lor Starcutter).
> 
> All final bosses are either a planetary or universal threat.



Just noticed this.

Pretty much you summed up most of Kirbyverse's abilities


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## Gomu (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Any feats that demonstrate this ability in action?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He uses the crown as a conduit towards his power. So he can amp his power to what he wants to use thus the second and third forms.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Any feats that demonstrate this ability in action?



He got stopped by Kirby, like most villains get stopped by heroes in video games. But the games pretty much said he could do what i said.



> While we're on the subject of abilities that skirt dangerously close to NLFs, couldn't Keine just negate the wishes ever being made by rewriting history?



Before or after she gets assaulted with mind rape and Dark matter?



> But if the Crown is the source of his power, why wouldn't his base form also be universal with it?



He was literally featless in his base form so im just putting him at planetary to multi planet level, but you have a point.



Weather said:


> Ah right... I forgot thanks.
> 
> Also can we include Seihou into this?, since it's TECHNICALLY in the same verse-multiverse? (VIVIT appearing in Gensokyo and all that)



I'll allow it, although it wont really matter but at least they can test their might.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> He got stopped by Kirby, like most villains get stopped by heroes in video games. But the games pretty much said he could do what i said.



Alright. Can I get a quote, then?



> Before or after she gets assaulted with mind rape and Dark matter?



Unless the mind rape is instantaneous and enough to break her it won't matter. Dark Matter is a moot point in this since Komachi can stop it from ever reaching her.



> He was literally featless in his base form so im just putting him at planetary to multi planet level, but you have a point.



So is this guy banned in general or what?


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## Zombehs (Oct 29, 2011)

Yukari could technically just BFR them all, by gapping them away.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Alright. Can I get a quote, then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> NES game = no talking
> 
> Not a direct quote but's basically hinting towards it although Pop Star is called Dream Land and Dreamland is the name of the country Kirby lives in so i could be wrong.



Doesn't have to be in-game dialogue. Something from the instruction manual would work too, assuming Nightmare's powers are described there. Otherwise, it's pretty hard to debate against an ability whose limitations or mechanics I know nothing about.



> Does Komachi's ability work from things attack from behind because Dark matter are intangible and can attack her by fazing through the world and smashing into her without her realizing it. (One fodder did this to Waddle Dee in Crystal Shards)



Her ability manipulates distances. Raising the distance between Keine and Dark Matter to infinity prevents it from ever reaching her, and her profile states that she can indeed increase distances infinitely when she wants to.



> Depends which would you rather have fight? Either of the three can counter the BFR and cause some major carnage.



I'd assume a universal makes the match just a bit one sided since the Touhouverse has no feats anywhere close to that.


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## Gomu (Oct 29, 2011)

If we use composites of Kirby (such as the anime or Super Smash Bros), the Halberd that Meta Knight uses is extremely powerful and is capable to destroying ships that had the ability to destroy the planet. Not to mention Dyna Blade which has a body that is much stronger than steel and is capable of cutting things just by flying by them, things like stone and metal with ease. It was also able to destroy a huge fleet of ships by itself. As I said before it has FTL speed of movement, and has strong armor which can tank powerful laser attacks as well (if we wanna go by feats of SSBB). 

Kirby can also use the Dragoon (which was an air ride machine that could completely one-shot characters in SSBB and cut through a huge ship like the Subspace gunner), it is even much faster than the warp star which is already light speed.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Doesn't have to be in-game dialogue. Something from the instruction manual would work too, assuming Nightmare's powers are described there. Otherwise, it's pretty hard to debate against an ability whose limitations or mechanics I know nothing about.



It would be better to use the Country level feat since it's talking about Dream Land then.



> Her ability manipulates distances. Raising the distance between Keine and Dark Matter to infinity prevents it from ever reaching her, and her profile states that she can indeed increase distances infinitely when she wants to.



Will BFR work then by some one like Malgoro or NOVA? (They won't reach her but their powers should.)



> I'd assume a universal makes the match just a bit one sided since the Touhouverse has no feats anywhere close to that.



Will use base then since it's more of a planetary threat.



Gomu said:


> If we use composites of Kirby (such as the anime), the Halberd that Meta Knight uses is extremely powerful and is capable to destroying ships that had the ability to destroy the planet. Not to mention Dyna Blade which has a body that is much stronger than steel and is capable of cutting things just by flying by them, things like stone and metal with ease. It was also able to destroy a huge fleet of ships by itself. As I said before it has FTL speed of movement, and has strong armor which can tank powerful laser attacks as well (if we wanna go by feats of SSMB.
> 
> Kirby can also use the Dragoon (which was an air ride machine that could completely one-shot characters in SSBB and cut through a huge ship like the Subspace gunner), it is even much faster than the warp star which is already light speed.



 Thanks for reminding me Gomu


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 29, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> It would be better to use the Country level feat since it's talking about Dream Land then.



That's not really what I need to know, though. I mean how his powers work. How the nightmares happen to someone who's awake, how long it takes for them to kick in, whether it's a passive ability or one he has to activate, stuff like that.



> Will BFR work then by some one like Malgoro or NOVA? (They won't reach her but their powers should.)



If they know to target her, perhaps, which they shouldn't. Keine has an advantage in that regard, since she supposedly knows everything in her hakutaku form. I see no reason why Yukari can't counter their BFR if Malgoro can counter her own, either.



> Will use base then since it's more of a planetary threat.



As you wish. What else can he do, aside from the barrier thing?


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## Gomu (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> That's not really what I need to know, though. I mean how his powers work. *How the nightmares happen to someone who's awake, how long it takes for them to kick in, whether it's a passive ability or one he has to activate, stuff like that.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The nightmares are passive, Nightmare is an entitiy with reality warping powers, meaning you are dreaming while you're awake, that also means that he doesn't need to lull you to sleep or anything, his name is nightmare because he is a monstrosity to pop-star that creates a reality that is as if you cannot awake from because you already are.

In that sense, you can see why he is such a threat. He creates most of the monstrosities Kirby has to face in the first game.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> That's not really what I need to know, though. I mean how his powers work. How the nightmares happen to someone who's awake, how long it takes for them to kick in, whether it's a passive ability or one he has to activate, stuff like that.



Oh I see. He should be activated via thought so it wouldn't take that long.



> If they know to target her, perhaps, which they shouldn't. Keine has an advantage in that regard, since she supposedly knows everything in her hakutaku form. I see no reason why Yukari can't counter their BFR if Malgoro can counter her own, either.



She could, not denying that but one problem is that they are basically facing a virtually endless swarm of dark matter (02 is creating and controlling them)

Then there Is the things Gomu mentioned.



> As you wish. What else can he do, aside from the barrier thing?



Creating fodder enemies in his hands, dimensional rifts, dimensional creation/manipulation, energy blasts, etc.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 29, 2011)

Gomu said:


> The nightmares are passive, Nightmare is an entitiy with reality warping powers, meaning you are dreaming while you're awake, that also means that he doesn't need to lull you to sleep or anything, his name is nightmare because he is a monstrosity to pop-star that creates a reality that is as if you cannot awake from because you already are.
> 
> In that sense, you can see why he is such a threat. He creates most of the monstrosities Kirby has to face in the first game.



Yeah this is the best answer.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

Gomu said:


> The nightmares are passive, Nightmare is an entitiy with reality warping powers, meaning you are dreaming while you're awake, that also means that he doesn't need to lull you to sleep or anything, his name is nightmare because he is a monstrosity to pop-star that creates a reality that is as if you cannot awake from because you already are.
> 
> In that sense, you can see why he is such a threat. He creates most of the monstrosities Kirby has to face in the first game.



Makes sense to me, even if I'm not sure how it would mesh with the Touhou cast functioning perfectly normally in various dream dimensions. Yukari has the ability to mess with dreams too.

What game is this explained in, though?



ShikiYakumo said:


> She could, not denying that but one problem is that they are basically facing a virtually endless swarm of dark matter (02 is creating and controlling them)



Until it dies, anyway. Shouldn't be all that difficult to pinpoint it as the source since, as I mentioned, EX-Keine apparently knows everything and the Touhouverse has at least one mind reader. Or they could just see it creating more Dark Matter. Suika can casually destroy and reconstruct the Moon with her powers, so she should have more than enough AoE to handle the entire swarm at once.



> Creating fodder enemies in his hands, dimensional rifts, dimensional creation/manipulation, energy blasts, etc.



The third one is interesting. Got an example?


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Makes sense to me, even if I'm not sure how it would mesh with the Touhou cast functioning perfectly normally in various dream dimensions. Yukari has the ability to mess with dreams too.
> 
> What game is this explained in, though?
> 
> ...



Again, since we can use composite feats here, the anime has a better show of the potential of his power. All things that happened in the anime were results of his doing, so it's a better basis than the game that doesn't have as much source potential. This is for the anime I shall gather the game info as well.



> Likely because the Kirby anime was meant to coincide with the release of Nightmare in Dream Land, Nightmare is the main villain in Kirby's anime series, despite actually appearing in only nine episodes (the whole series had 100). Instead of attempting the conquest of Pop Star by corrupting the Fountain of Dreams, this version of Nightmare is intent on universal conquest through more direct, forceful methods. He is responsible for the creation of Nightmare Enterprises (known as Holy NightMare Co. in Japan) He creates and sells hordes of monsters that Kirby often has to fight. It's implied that the monsters eventually turn on the customers as well. The money he makes from it always goes to his conquest goals. There was a time when the Star Warriors and Galaxy Soldier Army stood in his way, but his army of monsters wiped them all out except Meta Knight, Kit Cosmos, Sir Arthur, Sir Falspar, Sir Dragato, and Sir Noisurat.
> 
> It's mentioned by Kabu that Nightmare created one monster that didn't obey him, though who it is is never stated. This is heavily implied to be Kirby, but it is possible that it might also be Meta Knight who also seems to hold a grudge against Nightmare, as Kirby wasn't even born yet while the great war was going on. It is also believed by some people that Phan Phan or Fofa (Lola in the Japanese anime) was the disobeying monster created by NME.
> 
> ...



Now for the game version.



> Nightmare is a powerful entity that serves at the final boss in both Kirby's Adventure and its remake. In both games, he can only be defeated by the powerful Star Rod that Kirby collects in both games.
> 
> In Kirby's Adventure, *Nightmare takes control of the * in an attempt to extend his control over Dream Land. Trying to prevent this, Dedede breaks the Star Rod and scatters it around Dream Land, temporarily leaving Nightmare unable to take control and seems to trap him inside the Fountain of Dreams. Kirby, unaware of Dedede's intentions, restores the Star Rod and places it back in the fountain. With the Star Rod back in place, Nightmare reveals himself. Nightmare and Kirby then fly into space (Kirby did this with the help of Dedede).
> 
> ...



All of this is from the  as of course, it is one of the better wikis to get information from.

The  fuels the entire planets star power, and fuels dreams within the worlds Kirby goes to as the Fountain of Dreams is not the only fountain. This is the only weapon that could actually kill Nightmare, meaning the Star Rod is vastly or equal to planet-level or multi-planet level power in Kirby.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't see anything about composite in the OP, but whatever. All I've gathered from that is that the anime version of Nightmare can mindfuck, nothing about large scale reality warping that makes the victims experience nightmares despite being awake.

And I've never once heard of the two Star Rods being the same. Where did you get that from?


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I don't see anything about composite in the OP, but whatever. All I've gathered from that is that the anime version of Nightmare can mindfuck, nothing about large scale reality warping that makes the victims experience nightmares despite being awake.
> 
> *And I've never once heard of the two Star Rods being the same. Where did you get that from?*



I misread that one. However, the star rod is planetary level. It fuels all a planets power within and is used to fuel the dreams of the planet. I think Shiki might have misread the other thing, yes Nightmare can lull people to sleep so that is an inconsistent feat, but he has created creatures that were easily city threats (again the ships and most of the fodder creatures that are called upon by Dedede).

He can warp reality with the Fountain of Dreams, however as he was planning to completely change Dreamland. The Universe with the Fountain of Dreams, though he wouldn't be able to have that in this battle.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

i see things got interesting while i was asleep.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> I don't see anything about composite in the OP, but whatever. All I've gathered from that is that the anime version of Nightmare can mindfuck, nothing about large scale reality warping that makes the victims experience nightmares despite being awake.



Well technically i was referring to composite characters which is why meta has the speed feat i posted.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The third one is interesting. Got an example?



After trapping Pop Star in a magical field he opened a dimensional rift in space and Kirby, Dedede, Waddle Dee, and Meta knight chased him riding dragons. When they entered the rift they were inside an alternate dimension that had stars in the distance and multiple enemies floating around, when they caught up with Malgoro he created a replica of his ship with his dimensional manipulation and he was using it to fire multiple deadly magic blasts. (Most likely the ship was moving at FTL speeds since these dragons that the main characters were using are faster then Meta Knight. This also adds on to the fact the ship can travel at FTL speeds and was faster then the dragons.) He was also able to create a large tornado in the dimension that was moving faster then Kirby and a shield to cover the ship so it could blitz the main characters without suffering damage.

Oh i forgot to say the guy has teleportation and created a dimensional platform where he has the final battle with Kirby's crew.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

I'll get to the specifics in a moment, but I'm watching the final boss fight on Youtube right now. Magolor's second form reminds me of a Count Bleck, which is awesome, but I'm wondering how Kirby beat him if the Crown is basically the ultimate power. Is he just a massive glass cannon?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

Not really sure i say it's PIS. Mostly because the crown should enhance all stats.

 Solidfalcon said the same thing about how he looks like Bleck.


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> I'll get to the specifics in a moment, but I'm watching the final boss fight on Youtube right now. Magolor's second form reminds me of a Count Bleck, which is awesome, but I'm wondering how Kirby beat him if the Crown is basically the ultimate power. Is he just a massive glass cannon?



The forms were the conduits of him using his power to things like limiters. He used only half his power (probably) in his second form, and full power at his third form, meaning he used half the crowns power and then went full blast on the last scenario. And Magolor's soul (True Arena) is supposedly stronger than that as he always has his power (sometimes I think that Nintendo is high when they make some of these characters, seriously he has a fucking eyeball for a mouth). Anyway yeah, Form 2 is probably multi-planet/star level and Form 3 is easily universe level. The EX form of both Marx Soul and Magolor Soul are both Universe +, due to stronger attacks and much more powerful assaults (EX characters usually gain more attacks in Kirby to make them superior to their actual final forms).


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

I think the guy is really a dark matter (it explains the eye thing.) but who knows it's always Nintendo's insanity.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

Speaking of which, isn't the fact that the crown is... well, a crown kind of a weakness? What happens if Sakuya stops time and takes it off his head?



Gomu said:


> The forms were the conduits of him using his power to things like limiters. He used only half his power (probably) in his second form, and full power at his third form, meaning he used half the crowns power and then went full blast on the last scenario. And Magolor's soul (True Arena) is supposedly stronger than that as he always has his power (sometimes I think that Nintendo is high when they make some of these characters, seriously he has a fucking eyeball for a mouth). Anyway yeah, Form 2 is probably multi-planet/star level and Form 3 is easily universe level. The EX form of both Marx Soul and Magolor Soul are both Universe +, due to stronger attacks and much more powerful assaults (EX characters usually gain more attacks in Kirby to make them superior to their actual final forms).



Where are you getting universe level from, especially for Marx? From what I saw Magolor was a universal threat in that he was powerful enough to take over the universe, but I didn't see any examples of him using powers on a universal scale.


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> I think the guy is really a dark matter (it explains the eye thing.) but who knows it's always Nintendo's insanity.



Gigyas is from a inter-dimensional fetus (a very fucked up one, but a fetus none the less). So it all depends on what you think. Nintendo is supposed to be for kids, but some of the shit they so is strangely... "dark".


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

Well it wont really happen but anyway im not sure if it will power him down but since it never happened it's hard to say whether it would weaken him or not.

EDIT: It does keep powering him up to the point that he wants since the power of the crown is virtually limitless.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Gigyas is from a inter-dimensional fetus (a very fucked up one, but a fetus none the less). So it all depends on what you think. Nintendo is supposed to be for kids, but some of the shit they so is strangely... "dark".



Zero shoots blood bullets out of his eyes.


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Speaking of which, isn't the fact that the crown is... well, a crown kind of a weakness? What happens if Sakuya stops time and takes it off his head?
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you getting universe level from, especially for Marx? From what I saw Magolor was a universal threat in that he was powerful enough to take over the universe, but I didn't see any examples of him using powers on a universal scale.





Eldritch Sukima said:


> Speaking of which, isn't the fact that the crown is... well, a crown kind of a weakness? What happens if Sakuya stops time and takes it off his head?
> 
> *Where are you getting universe level from, especially for Marx? From what I saw Magolor was a universal threat in that he was powerful enough to take over the universe, but I didn't see any examples of him using powers on a universal scale.*



I didn't say Marx, Marx Soul is much stronger than the actual Marx and has more powerful attacks and abilities than he does. Maybe not universal, but he was easily one of the strongest bosses in Kirby thanks to his abilities granted by Nova once more in trying to defeat Kirby. And the boost of power was already substantial enough that it could of destroyed Pop Star without much effort.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Well it wont really happen but anyway im not sure if it will power him down but since it never happened it's hard to say whether it would weaken him or not.
> 
> EDIT: It does keep powering him up to the point that he wants since the power of the crown is virtually limitless.



Well the crown is the source of his power. Taking it off would presumably take away his power, or at least limit him to what he'd already channeled from it.



Gomu said:


> I didn't say Marx, Marx Soul is much stronger than the actual Marx and has more powerful attacks and abilities than he does. Maybe not universal, but he was easily one of the strongest bosses in Kirby thanks to his abilities granted by Nova once more in trying to defeat Kirby. And the boost of power was already substantial enough that it could of destroyed Pop Star without much effort.



Pop Star is one planet of unknown size. Destroying it doesn't suggest anything near star level, much less universe level.

Is there any feat in Kirby that's actually universal?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

The entire crown can keep powering up anyone to a universe busting level?


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Well the crown is the source of his power. Taking it off would presumably take away his power, or at least limit him to what he'd already channeled from it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess not, Magolor is the strongest boss to date and with the crown is universe level. Drawcia warps the entire reality though, using an extremely powerful paintbrush to do so. Not to mention Kirby also faces the sun and the moon, though that's more planetoid level.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

Too many variables and too much uncertainty at the moment, at least for my tastes, though it might just be because I'm tired.

Let's go back to something simpler. Did we come to any kind of consensus on the first match?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

Well Kirby can deal with Reimu's speed (Warp Star) and his sword form is going to help him alot.


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Kirby can match Reimu with his Warp Star, and using the Star Rod which was the only thing that could destroy Nightmare a planet level entity. 

Youmu wins, as Meta Knight is not relativistic in speed so gets thwarted by a quick draw battle.

Marx can create black holes and split his body apart to attack in two ways or dodge her attacks.

Though most of the work will be given to the Dark Matter which will allow for using weaker characters in order to fight against the Touhouverse, though Galacta shouldn't be counted out considering he was stated to be one of the most powerful warriors to ever exist in a verse full of Eldritch Abominations (yes your name), not to mention Miracle Matter and Zero who are both extremely powerful, and capable of creating an entire planet of dark matter. I think Dark Matter wins this.

Kirbyverse wins the Touhou verse, as most of the entities in Kirbyverse can easily destroy planets. There's also the newest character who with the Mologor who with the Master Crown is at least Multi-planet in his third form. Then the Dark Matter once more, followed by ships that can move at speeds of FTL and destroy most cities with ease including the Halberd and Lor Starcutter.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

Does Kirby have anything at all to counter Fantasy Heaven, assuming he's fast enough to keep up with Reimu?

And does Marx create actual black holes, or just your typical black hole-esque vortex attack?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

Warp Star should be all around faster then the Shrine Maiden but no he doesn't have a counter for Phantasy Heaven.

He creates real black holes they aren't large but they are enough to kill Flandre. ( This coming from a person who is a huge fan of Flandre)


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Does Kirby have anything at all to counter Fantasy Heaven, assuming he's fast enough to keep up with Reimu?
> 
> And does Marx create actual black holes, or just your typical black hole-esque vortex attack?



Marx creates actual miniature black holes, Kirby just tanks (I know it's funny as hell, it's like how Mario gets hurt from touching Goomba's). That depends on if she can hit Kirby fast enough with the yin-yang orbs.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 30, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Warp Star should be all around faster then the Shrine Maiden but no he doesn't have a counter for Phantasy Heaven.



Then he loses, though even if the Warp Star is faster than Reimu, he still has to summon/jump on it at his own speeds.



> He creates real black holes they aren't large but they are enough to kill Flandre. ( This coming from a person who is a huge fan of Flandre)





Gomu said:


> Marx creates actual miniature black holes, Kirby just tanks (I know it's funny as hell, it's like how Mario gets hurt from touching Goomba's). That depends on if she can hit Kirby fast enough with the yin-yang orbs.



How do we know they're real?


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## Gomu (Oct 30, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Then he loses, though even if the Warp Star is faster than Reimu, he still has to summon/jump on it at his own speeds.
> 
> *How do we know they're real?*



This is why I wish Nintendo showed more centered feats around this. NOVA is one of the most powerful beings in the Kirbyverse, thus giving power to Marx, Marx asked for the ability to take over Pop Star. Now the aspect of this is I can't prove that it is powerful enough to be an actual black hole, but it does suck in energy, and heavily damage Kirby. Since any wish made from NOVA is granted (he brought back Galacta Knight for god sakes), it can be assumed that Marx has planet-level power (thus I consider them miniature black holes, though I can't prove it), that power alone would make most of the Touhou verse liable to death since most of them are glass cannons.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 30, 2011)

After looking at Marx's profile Gomu pretty much explains everything I'm still rusty on my knowledge of Kirby anyway.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> This is why I wish Nintendo showed more centered feats around this. NOVA is one of the most powerful beings in the Kirbyverse, thus giving power to Marx, Marx asked for the ability to take over Pop Star. Now the aspect of this is I can't prove that it is powerful enough to be an actual black hole, but it does suck in energy, and heavily damage Kirby. Since any wish made from NOVA is granted (he brought back Galacta Knight for god sakes), it can be assumed that Marx has planet-level power (thus I consider them miniature black holes, though I can't prove it), that power alone would make most of the Touhou verse liable to death since most of them are glass cannons.



The ability to take over Pop Star doesn't automatically suggest any given level of power, just more power than its residents have.

As far as the micro black hole thing goes, one could similarly argue that Suika's black holes are actual singularities, which would in turn suggest that micro black holes aren't a big deal to the high tiers since Suika can easily spam them while messing around.

From what I've seen, Marx's black hole attack is very short ranged and has a bit of a delay before it starts. I don't see why Flandre can't just avoid it, or why she'd have to be that close to him in the first place when her ability has at least enough range to hit something in the upper atmosphere.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The ability to take over Pop Star doesn't automatically suggest any given level of power, just more power than its residents have.
> 
> As far as the micro black hole thing goes, one could similarly argue that Suika's black holes are actual singularities, which would in turn suggest that micro black holes aren't a big deal to the high tiers since Suika can easily spam them while messing around.
> 
> From what I've seen, Marx's black hole attack is very short ranged and has a bit of a delay before it starts. I don't see why Flandre can't just avoid it, or why she'd have to be that close to him in the first place when her ability has at least enough range to hit something in the upper atmosphere.



Because of the factors of moving so quickly. Marx has enough speed that he can easily outmaneuver Kirby's own speed which is MHS+. Kirby is also known for tanking attacks from creature like Zero and 02 who are officially Dark Matter (one of the most powerful substances in the universe in both this place and Kirbyverse next to Star Power). Yes, a lot of the abilities from them are hax, and the abilities that Marx factors in are just shows of his power to not be too hax for the players use (a large enough black hole would of easily destroyed Kirby).

Lets not forget that Marx has Marx Soul who is a good deal faster than even Marx himself. Reimu only has an advantage in her speed while Marx has the ability to tank and destroy her in an instant, so she will need her greatest speed to outmaneuver the "black holes".


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Because of the factors of moving so quickly. Marx has enough speed that he can easily outmaneuver Kirby's own speed which is MHS+. Kirby is also known for tanking attacks from creature like Zero and 02 who are officially Dark Matter (one of the most powerful substances in the universe in both this place and Kirbyverse next to Star Power). Yes, a lot of the abilities from them are hax, and the abilities that Marx factors in are just shows of his power to not be too hax for the players use (a large enough black hole would of easily destroyed Kirby).



Kirby obviously wasn't blitzed, so where are you getting greatly superior speed from? Most of Marx's movement appears to be teleportation anyway, not raw speed.



> Lets not forget that Marx has Marx Soul who is a good deal faster than even Marx himself. Reimu only has an advantage in her speed while Marx has the ability to tank and destroy her in an instant, so she will need her greatest speed to outmaneuver the "black holes".



Reimu's not matched with Marx, Flandre is. Black holes would be a moot point against Reimu due to Fantasy Heaven.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Kirby obviously wasn't blitzed, so where are you getting greatly superior speed from? Most of Marx's movement appears to be teleportation anyway, not raw speed.
> 
> 
> 
> *Reimu's not matched with Marx, Flandre is. Black holes would be a moot point against Reimu due to Fantasy Heaven*.



How to place this... Touhouverse has more feats that are actually described than Kirbyverse. Making it seem more powerful, though it isn't. However, I can shed some light on this, I meant that Marx was faster due to use of its teleportation abilities. Thanks to this it should be able to dodge the Fantasy Heaven considering that its game mechanic is actually the person fighting getting a blow in. What makes you think that Marx can' dodge most of her attacks since it takes charging. If she gets hit by one of Marx's attacks won't she be just as dead as if she was hitting him with Fantasy Heaven. Again, the Touhou are easily glass cannons and none of Marx's attacks are conventional.

At any rate. Back to Flandre. Again, if we were to use both versions of Marx, and take the usages of black holes, even if they aren't (real), they are still strong enough to probably absorb and suck her inside, his teleportation would allow him to sneak behind her and use the black hole attack, since it can basically both fly and use attacks at massively hypersonic speeds w/ teleportation.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> How to place this... Touhouverse has more feats that are actually described than Kirbyverse. Making it seem more powerful, though it isn't.



We should probably stick with things that are actually shown or at least firmly established, or else we get things like Yukari creating constellations.



> However, I can shed some light on this, I meant that Marx was faster due to use of its teleportation abilities.



Reimu can teleport too, so I'm not sure how that gives Marx a speed advantage.



> Thanks to this it should be able to dodge the Fantasy Heaven considering that its game mechanic is actually the person fighting getting a blow in. What makes you think that Marx can' dodge most of her attacks since it takes charging. If she gets hit by one of Marx's attacks won't she be just as dead as if she was hitting him with Fantasy Heaven. Again, the Touhou are easily glass cannons and none of Marx's attacks are conventional.



I'm not sure what you mean. Fantasy Heaven isn't an attack, it's a technique that allows Reimu to place herself outside of reality. A souped up form of intangibility, basically, since nothing can touch her unless it's also capable of transcending reality in some way. As far as I know, none of Marx's attacks fit that description, and most of them seem conventional to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by glass cannons, either. Spellcard duels are just a game and yet things like miniature suns are used as projectiles.



> At any rate. Back to Flandre. Again, if we were to use both versions of Marx, and take the usages of black holes, even if they aren't (real), they are still strong enough to probably absorb and suck her inside, his teleportation would allow him to sneak behind her and use the black hole attack, since it can basically both fly and use attacks at massively hypersonic speeds w/ teleportation.



Marx is going to sneak up on her despite the fact that his teleportation makes noise and he spends half the time laughing maniacally? I doubt it's going to be that easy.

But what's he going to do to defend himself from her ability?


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> We should probably stick with things that are actually shown or at least firmly established, or else we get things like Yukari creating constellations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If she can get out of him creating blackholes, than sure. She wins that one.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> If she can get out of him creating blackholes, than sure. She wins that one.



Alright then. Looks like 3-0, but the debating is just getting fun.

What are your thoughts on the fourth match?


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

OK. Since we are now in actual versuses. Kirbyverse has a good chance of taking this, since Nova can grant any wish, ships that allow for FTL travel speed and movement speed. Factoring in that many bosses are indeed planet level (we count the Soul counterparts they are multi-planet level). I think that Kirbyverse is able to take them on. Nova is also part of a race of creatures that live like cosmic beings in the universe. One wish could just bring in the ability to warp reality. This makes them  a powerful verse. Many of the main characters move at massively hypersonic speeds, and Galacta Knight leads the charge considering he moves faster than Meta Knight and is a great deal more powerful than either Kirby or Meta Knight (of course I don't know the actual speed as I'm not good at calcs so I hate this shit), due to feats though, I think Touhou can win this battle if they can stop the Kirbyverse from making a wish on the NOVA or conjuring the use of final weapons.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Chances of them stopping the heavy hitters from wishing away major threats from Touhou are pretty much zero.

Because they wont know when someone makes a wish, for example Komachi can be wished away along with Yukari and no one from either side would realize till latter.

First thing is that Galacta Knight and Marx will lead the endless swarms of Dark matter to cover the planet, then Nightmare and anyone else will start to mind rape the population.

Halberd comes in and starts shooting everything, etc.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> OK. Since we are now in actual versuses. Kirbyverse has a good chance of taking this, since Nova can grant any wish, ships that allow for FTL travel speed and movement speed.



The Nova thing treads into NLF territory, like Flandre being able to destroy anything or Yuyuko being able to kill anything that isn't immortal, both of which would be problematic regardless since they're basically impossible to dodge.

And I'm going to need actual examples of the FTL combat thing for the ships. FTL travel is one thing, but the ability for the crew to react to things at those speeds and pull off complex maneuvers at their warp speed is quite another.



> Factoring in that many bosses are indeed planet level (we count the Soul counterparts they are multi-planet level). I think that Kirbyverse is able to take them on.



Shinki is comfortably above planet level. Ignoring the fact that Makai is stated to be infinitely large, it still has at least one sun and what appear to be constellations. Yumemi is probably planet level, since she has an allegedly planet busting bomb at her disposal. Eirin pulled off a planetary feat in Imperishable Night. Even Reimu can planet bust if you include the bad endings of HRtP, which seems fair if we're adding the Kirbyverse's anime feats.

You could easily argue other characters to be planetary based on powerscaling, including Okuu (was going to melt the Earth's surface if she won), Yukari (who's arguably there already depending on how she froze the night), Suika (shattered the moon and the space around it effortlessly, in addition to demonstrating an AoE larger than the Earth), Shikieiki (three of the series' most powerful characters combined are no match for her), Yorihime (capable of summoning the sun goddess and controlling her powers), and of course the Dragon since it's suggested to be the most powerful Touhou character period.

So yeah, this trend is not unique to the Kirbyverse.



> Nova is also part of a race of creatures that live like cosmic beings in the universe. One wish could just bring in the ability to warp reality. This makes them  a powerful verse.



The Touhouverse already has a few forms of reality warping, albeit limited ones due to the lack of feats.



> Many of the main characters move at massively hypersonic speeds,



Also not a trend unique to the Kirbyverse. Sakuya reacted to lightning bolts before they could reach the ground, Remilia orbited the moon faster than the sunlight could burn her, and Marisa and Yorihime debatably laser timed. Lightning in general doesn't seem to be a big deal, considering that manipulating it is one of Iku's primary abilities and none of the SWR protagonists are implied to have had much trouble with her.



> and Galacta Knight leads the charge considering he moves faster than Meta Knight and is a great deal more powerful than either Kirby or Meta Knight (of course I don't know the actual speed as I'm not good at calcs so I hate this shit), due to feats though, I think Touhou can win this battle if they can stop the Kirbyverse from making a wish on the NOVA



I brought this up before, but couldn't Keine erase the wish from history?



> or conjuring the use of final weapons.



As I pointed out before, supernatural artifacts of any kind become a risk when you're trying to use them against a mind reader who's going to know what they do and someone who can just stop time and take them.



ShikiYakumo said:


> Chances of them stopping the heavy hitters from wishing away major threats from Touhou are pretty much zero.
> 
> Because they wont know when someone makes a wish, for example Komachi can be wished away along with Yukari and no one from either side would realize till latter.



How in the world are they going to target specific individuals when the Kirbyverse has no way of knowing who they are or what they can do? Unless they have some form of cosmic awareness I'm not aware of, it's all or nothing with this wishing thing unless they're just going to pick targets at random.



> First thing is that Galacta Knight and Marx will lead the endless swarms of Dark matter to cover the planet, then Nightmare and anyone else will start to mind rape the population.
> 
> Halberd comes in and starts shooting everything, etc.



You said that the verse vs. verse battle takes place at the Fountain of Dreams. Why would they be doing this to their own world?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Wish away the "strongest fighters of the enemy faction." NOVA doesn't need a specific example.

Also Fountain of Dreams is orbiting Pop Star Dark Matter could just cover both since the fountain's size is obviously smaller then the planet and both are close enough to each other.

EDIT: Your right this debate is fun.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Wish away the "strongest fighters of the enemy faction." NOVA doesn't need a specific example.



And is Nova powerful enough to grant that wish? Powerful enough to just poof Shinki or the Dragon out of existence?



> Also Fountain of Dreams is orbiting Pop Star Dark Matter could just cover both since the fountain's size is obviously smaller then the planet and both are close enough to each other.



But why bother? Everyone down there is already on their side anyway.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

NOVA should be able to his power can reach into other dimensions.

It's more of an example since Dark Matter are embodiments of everything negative so they are bloodlusted.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The Nova thing treads into NLF territory, like Flandre being able to destroy anything or Yuyuko being able to kill anything that isn't immortal, both of which would be problematic regardless since they're basically impossible to dodge.
> 
> And I'm going to need actual examples of the FTL combat thing for the ships. FTL travel is one thing, but the ability for the crew to react to things at those speeds and pull off complex maneuvers at their warp speed is quite another.
> 
> ...



And what about using the air-ride machines, you do realize that these machines can move faster than warp-stars, which again move at FTL speeds (it only took Kirby and Nightmare about three-seconds to fully reach the moon after the fight in Nightmare in Dreamland). The  and  are two extremely powerful machines that not only have the ability to move, but to strike at the same speeds and with great power (again one instance of showing is while Dragoon was collected fully and able to cut through an extremely large battleship), Kirby and Dedede can use them effectively and have FTL "reactions" due to being able to effectively maneuver them, so to your earlier question can they keep up with them? Yes, they can. 

Nova is a being that is able to grant any wish (Marx could of wished away the planet if he wanted to but was too much in lust for power for gaining it and being able to destroy the world). Nova can easily wish away factions and move to help them defend against the threat that is Touhou. And so what if a telepath can know what the weapons do, that's not the same as battling against them and you know that Eldritich, what can they do after figuring out what they are take their ass-whoppings? 

Kirby also uses the warp star to travel from place to place or planet to planet in the span of a few seconds where it should take him more (Crystal Shards, being the best show of this considering hes going to many kinds of different planets that aren't that close together and traveling throughout the galaxy to collect crystal shards).

Again, I keep saying I wish that Nintendo showed more feats...


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> NOVA should be able to his power can reach into other dimensions.



Not sure why that's relevant or how that's supposed to quantify its power. Shinki created her own dimension, and dimensional boundaries may as well not exist to the Dragon. Even Kanako is capable of this if you consider Gensokyo itself an alternate dimension of sorts, so Nova needs something more impressive.



> It's more of an example since Dark Matter are embodiments of everything negative so they are bloodlusted.



Isn't everyone bloodlusted by default?



Gomu said:


> And what about using the air-ride machines, you do realize that these machines can move faster than warp-stars, *which again move at FTL speeds (it only took Kirby and Nightmare about three-seconds to fully reach the moon after the fight in Nightmare in Dreamland)*. The  and  are two extremely powerful machines that not only have the ability to move, but to strike at the same speeds and with great power (again one instance of showing is while Dragoon was collected fully and able to cut through an extremely large battleship), Kirby and Dedede can use them effectively and have FTL "reactions" due to being able to effectively maneuver them, so to your earlier question can they keep up with them? Yes, they can.



That's not FTL, considering it would take light less than three seconds to reach the Moon and return to Earth. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's not quantifiable at all considering Kirby games don't take place on Earth.



> Nova is a being that is able to grant any wish (Marx could of wished away the planet if he wanted to but was too much in lust for power for gaining it and being able to destroy the world). Nova can easily wish away factions and move to help them defend against the threat that is Touhou.



Except as I said, the 'any wish' part plunges it right into NLF territory, and Touhou has a lot of those. For example, every source that mentions Flandre's power describes it as the ability to destroy anything and everything. So going by your own logic, what stops her from destroying the Kirbyverse itself once the match starts? I'm pretty sure speaking a wish would take longer than Flandre simply clenching her fist.

This is why feats are so valued in the OBD. Things become a train wreck without them.



> And so what if a telepath can know what the weapons do, that's not the same as battling against them and you know that Eldritich, what can they do after figuring out what they are take their ass-whoppings?



Satori learns what the crown does by reading Magolor's mind. She tells Sakuya, who stops time and steals it from him while he's completely helpless. Simple enough strategy. Kaguya may not even need the time stop trick to do this. If she can move any appreciable distance at all with her powers active, she can take the crown more quickly than he can react. Same applies to things like the Star Rod.



> Kirby also uses the warp star to travel from place to place or planet to planet in the span of a few seconds where it should take him more (Crystal Shards, being the best show of this considering hes going to many kinds of different planets that aren't that close together and traveling throughout the galaxy to collect crystal shards).



When is Crystal Shards stated or shown to take place across the galaxy? I played it recently and I don't recall that.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Well I'm not sure about Crystal Shards but yes they all are bloodlusted by default.

As for NOVA his power should be beyond the crown but that's just powerscailing.

The Warp Star is used to fly to other planets and to a galaxy in Squeek Squad.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Not sure why that's relevant or how that's supposed to quantify its power. Shinki created her own dimension, and dimensional boundaries may as well not exist to the Dragon. Even Kanako is capable of this if you consider Gensokyo itself an alternate dimension of sorts, so Nova needs something more impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're forgetting that its Kirby's main use of transportation to other planets across the entire galaxy. It's not as though it isn't fast enough to traverse the moon considering Kirby was fighting Nightmare while they were going and moving around the moon in order to do such a fight.

And She's gonna react to someone that could just as well teleport away? Yes they have teleporation as well, but you don't think that Magolor can teleport away just as quickly as she can especially if using Lor Starcutter which is again a ship that moves at FTL speeds. Come on Eldritich, be serious now.

Creatures like Landia have been shown to move at exceptional speeds such as while chasing Lor Starcutter across the universe while he was trying to move towards Popstar. Be honest.

Again I keep saying that the Air Machines which are mus faster than the Warp Star could just as easily cut the ladies in half before they perceive it. The strongest character in Touhou are light speed, not FTL. Both the Hydra and the Dragoon are incredibly powerful ships that do even more than the Warp Star do.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHQXuXE8qc[/YOUTUBE]

Rule number one. Don't fuck with Kirby.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> As for NOVA his power should be beyond the crown but that's just powerscailing.



And all we really know about the crown is that it's supposed to be an infinite energy source. Something which, according to Ran, the Lunarians have as well.



> The Warp Star is used to fly to other planets and to a galaxy in Squeek Squad.





You mean the orange galaxy? I'm pretty sure Kirby never goes there since it stays in the background of each part of the level.



Gomu said:


> You're forgetting that its Kirby's main use of transportation to other planets across the entire galaxy. It's not as though it isn't fast enough to traverse the moon considering Kirby was fighting Nightmare while they were going and moving around the moon in order to do such a fight.



I'm unconvinced that just traveling to other planets is anything to write home about, considering the planets in Crystal Shards look much closer to each other than the Moon is to the Earth, and light can easily cross that distance in under two seconds. Now if you have an example of Kirby traveling galactic distances, that'll be something more substantial.

Orbiting the moon isn't particularly impressive in this fight. I shouldn't have to explain why, since Remilia's feat has already been mentioned several times.



> And She's gonna react to someone that could just as well teleport away? Yes they have teleporation as well, but you don't think that Magolor can teleport away just as quickly as she can especially if using Lor Starcutter which is again a ship that moves at FTL speeds. Come on Eldritich, be serious now.



Kaguya's power allows her to act within an instant. Lunarians define that as a single femtosecond. Moving even one meter in that time frame would make her well over three million times the speed of light, and that speed doubles if she can move two meters, triples for three, etc. Magolor is reacting to that? No way, not without a damn good feat to suggest he can.

I certainly hope you weren't talking about Sakuya, because I'm not seeing how Magolor does much of anything while time is frozen.



> Creatures like Landia have been shown to move at exceptional speeds such as while chasing Lor Starcutter across the universe while he was trying to move towards Popstar. Be honest.



Yet Landia lost to Kirby, who's only massively hypersonic according to you, right?



> Again I keep saying that the Air Machines which are mus faster than the Warp Star could just as easily cut the ladies in half before they perceive it. The strongest character in Touhou are light speed, not FTL. Both the Hydra and the Dragoon are incredibly powerful ships that do even more than the Warp Star do.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHQXuXE8qc[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Rule number one. Don't fuck with Kirby.



Cut them in half? A youkai can be torn into five pieces and regenerate from it. And Komachi can do the infinite staircase trick from Super Mario 64 whenever she feels like it. Greater speed stops mattering when you're physically incapable of reaching your destination.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

For the record that Dragoon clip was an island buster.  (Subspace Canon is Island sized so it will do more then cut them in half it would literally just phase them out. But main series Dragoon shits on Warp Star and Brawl Dragoon in every category.)

Anyway the Galaxy things was just Nintendo having continuity issues, Kirby did in fact fly there and he was chasing Dark Nebula after it possesses Daroach.

it's the level right before Kirby enters the black hole area in the picture here.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> For the record that Dragoon clip was an island buster.  (Subspace Canon is Island sized so it will do more then cut them in half it would literally just phase them out. But main series Dragoon shits on Warp Star and Brawl Dragoon in every category.)



Ganondorf's doom ship being island sized doesn't make that island busting. The Dragoon punched a hole through it and chain reactions wrecked the ship because Kirby hit something important. All it means is that the Dragoon could tear through the ship's armor like nothing.



> Anyway the Galaxy things was just Nintendo having continuity issues, Kirby did in fact fly there and he was chasing Dark Nebula after it possesses Daroach.



I'm gonna need some actual proof of that, because as far as I can see that galaxy is just part of the background both on the map and in the level itself.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

The galaxy you see is named Gamble Galaxy.

When Kirby goes there you can see his galaxy in the background, it's blue.

Gamble is Orange/red.

He's right above the galaxy. (Nintendo has continuity issues in this game and despite Kirby being in orbit of a Galaxy the background shows he's in orbit of Pop Star instead but despite that Kirby is in fact at the galaxy.)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxJoF7peYs[/YOUTUBE]


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> The galaxy you see is named Gamble Galaxy.
> 
> When Kirby goes there you can see his galaxy in the background, it's blue.
> 
> ...



The first video proves my point. Kirby's not in that galaxy considering it's right there in the background, and the fact that Pop Star is also very visible in the background means that Kirby hasn't even left his own galaxy. He's not very far from his planet, let alone his galaxy.

As for the blue galaxy that shows up in the final boss fight, proof that it's Kirby's galaxy and not just another random one?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Well considering that his galaxy and Gamble galaxy are the closest ones to where Kirby is.

Logic kind of points to it being Kirby's instead of another random Galaxy. (different color then gamble so it's not gamble.)

Like i said before it's continuity issues Nintendo has going do to laziness about changing the background despite the fact the game flat out tells you your in Gamble galaxy.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Well considering that his galaxy and Gamble galaxy are the closest ones to where Kirby is.
> 
> Logic kind of points to it being Kirby's instead of another random Galaxy. (different color then gamble so it's not gamble.)
> 
> Like i said before it's continuity issues Nintendo has going do to laziness about changing the background despite the fact the game flat out tells you your in Gamble galaxy.



According to the wiki, Gamble Galaxy _is_ Kirby's galaxy. Which fits nicely with the level itself, since it never shows that Kirby has left the galaxy.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Are we honestly using game aesthetics to discredit feats here?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Must have misread the wiki.

Then Kirby's home of Pop Star just exists outside of a Galaxy somehow.... (Nintendo logic FTW)

Still just the fact that Kirby exited the galaxy which was the entire argument and Kirby flew a good distance away so that you could see the galaxy itself. (Continuity errors again Nintendo.)

Whats strange is that the final level is a galaxy sized black hole (if we go by the world map.)



Dandy Elegance said:


> Are we honestly using game aesthetics to discredit feats here?



God i don't know probably im busy watching the first Terminator while writing all of this so im hardly paying attention.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Are we honestly using game aesthetics to discredit feats here?



Dandy my man! Am I wrong about the Warp Star being FTL? Or does Shiki have a boner for the Touhouverse?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

^
Lol wat?


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> God i don't know probably im busy watching the first Terminator while writing all of this so im hardly paying attention.



You and your autism.



Gomu said:


> Dandy my man! Am I wrong about the Warp Star being FTL? Or does Shiki have a boner for the Touhouverse?



Think you're a bit confused.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Must have misread the wiki.
> 
> Then Kirby's home of Pop Star just exists outside of a Galaxy somehow.... (Nintendo logic FTW)



The orange galaxy is a close neighbor to Kirby's, I'd think.



> Still just the fact that Kirby exited the galaxy which was the entire argument and Kirby flew a good distance away so that you could see the galaxy itself. (Continuity errors again Nintendo.)



Yeah, but we're still lacking proof that the blue galaxy is in fact Kirby's. And if it is, it seems like Dark Nebula warped them out there, given the background shift that makes the blue galaxy appear. Which would be impressive, but wouldn't be a feat for Kirby's warp star.



> Whats strange is that the final level is a galaxy sized black hole (if we go by the world map.)



Pop Star is also galaxy sized according to that map.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> ^
> Lol wat?



He's still discrediting the Warp Star as FTL so I'm getting Dandy's inference.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> You and your autism.
> 
> 
> 
> Think you're a bit confused.



Oh you. 



Eldritch Sukima said:


> The orange galaxy is a close neighbor to Kirby's, I'd think.



Still existing outside of the galaxy. 



> Yeah, but we're still lacking proof that the blue galaxy is in fact Kirby's. And if it is, it seems like Dark Nebula warped them out there, given the background shift that makes the blue galaxy appear. Which would be impressive, but wouldn't be a feat for Kirby's warp star.



Kirby is riding the warp star through out the final level chasing Dark nebula out of Gamble galaxy to the black hole.



> Pop Star is also galaxy sized according to that map.



Halberd is larger then both.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> He's still discrediting the Warp Star as FTL so I'm getting Dandy's inference.



I... still think you're a bit confused.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

If you want me to acknowledge that the Warp Star is FTL, then post some proof that it is. As in, something quantifiably FTL.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

The entire chasing Dark Nebula outside of a galaxy while riding Warp Star.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Still existing outside of the galaxy.



Who says it exists outside of the galaxy? That's just a nearby galaxy. You can't see Kirby's on that map because, you know, Kirby's in it.



> Kirby is riding the warp star through out the final level chasing Dark nebula out of Gamble galaxy to the black hole.



Is the black hole ever stated or shown to be outside of the galaxy?



> Halberd is larger then both.



TTGL level?


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> If you want me to acknowledge that the Warp Star is FTL, then post some proof that it is. As in, something quantifiably FTL.



Something quantifiable in a game that's... not really meant to be analysed seriously.

Though I suppose you could just say effective space travel in the first place is FTL.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Who says it exists outside of the galaxy? That's just a nearby galaxy. You can't see Kirby's on that map because, you know, Kirby's in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again its a fucking game that doesn't show the feats to know that it is FTL. however, if you want to go into this. How about we go into factors of Mario utilizing the Star Cannons to travel from place to place in Super Mario Galaxy? Factoring in that he is moving from planet to planet in a span of a few seconds as he goes along. The warp star allows the same thing for Kirby except its an actual vehicle.

Remember the Dragoon is much faster.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Who says it exists outside of the galaxy? That's just a nearby galaxy. You can't see Kirby's on that map because, you know, Kirby's in it.



Im pretty sure it's intended to be Kirby's galaxy.



> Is the black hole ever stated or shown to be outside of the galaxy?



Besides the map no but thats our best bet since were using background images. 



> TTGL level?



Kamina>Halberd>>>>>TTGL


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Again its a fucking game that doesn't show the feats to know that it is FTL. however, if you want to go into this. *How about we go into factors of Mario utilizing the Star Cannons to travel from place to place in Super Mario Galaxy? Factoring in that he is moving from planet to planet in a span of a few seconds as he goes along.* The warp star allows the same thing for Kirby except its an actual vehicle.
> 
> Remember the Dragoon is much faster.



You just skullfucked your own argument.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 31, 2011)

Refridgerator Kirby solos.......damn Kirby 64 was an awesome game.

The only other actual Kirby game I played was Kirby's Adventure, he had a laser ability in that game.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 31, 2011)

Kirby had a double bladed light saber in Kirby 64. :ho


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> You just skullfucked your own argument.



What are you talking about, how? Gimme an explanation oh gruff and "strong" one.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

...That has to be the weirdest way anyone's ever addressed me on this forum.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> ...That has to be the weirdest way anyone's ever addressed me on this forum.



Just give me the fucking explanation, Dandy. Why did it fuck my argument?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Something quantifiable in a game that's... not really meant to be analysed seriously.
> 
> Though I suppose you could just say effective space travel in the first place is FTL.



Every universe becomes serious business in the OBD.

And yeah, that would be true normally, but the Kirbyverse's cosmology is messed up enough to raise doubts. Pop Star being bigger than it's sun, for example.

I'm not really asking for something exactly quantifiable either. Even something highly suggesting it would be sufficient, like a warp star traveling to another solar system in five seconds or whatever.



Gomu said:


> Again its a fucking game that doesn't show the feats to know that it is FTL. however, if you want to go into this. How about we go into factors of Mario utilizing the Star Cannons to travel from place to place in Super Mario Galaxy? Factoring in that he is moving from planet to planet in a span of a few seconds as he goes along. The warp star allows the same thing for Kirby except its an actual vehicle.
> 
> Remember the Dragoon is much faster.



You can't just say the warp star is FTL if you have no proof.

Why are you bringing in a completely different series as proof of the Kirbyverse's capabilities, and since we're on the subject of the Dragoon being allegedly faster than a FTL warp star, what's that conclusion based on?



ShikiYakumo said:


> Im pretty sure it's intended to be Kirby's galaxy.



Why?



> Besides the map no but thats our best bet since were using background images.



That relies on the orange galaxy being Gamble Galaxy. Again, we need proof of these claims, or at least evidence supporting them.



> Kamina>Halberd>>>>>TTGL



Where does that leave Meta Knight?


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## Negative Zero (Oct 31, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Kirby had a double bladed light saber in Kirby 64. :ho



Along with a flaming sword, exploding ninja stars, a big electric rock, fireworks, all kinds of sharp things shooting out of his body, and a big firey pheonix attack. That game was epic.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Missile Kirby was always my favorite in Crystal Shards.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Missile Kirby was always my favorite in Crystal Shards.



I thought the snowman bomb was pretty hilarious. They should remake that game for the Wii or at least put it on the 3DS.

That was the only Kirby game I know that let you combine abilities.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Every universe becomes serious business in the OBD.
> 
> And yeah, that would be true normally, but the Kirbyverse's cosmology is messed up enough to raise doubts. Pop Star being bigger than it's sun, for example.
> 
> ...



Because Kirby Air Ride is a canon game (until stated otherwise) that showcases the use of different air-rides. The air-rides are things that allow for speedy travel and can be sued for races. The Hydra and the Dragoon are two of "legendary" air rides that allow for movement beyond the use of Warp Star.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 31, 2011)

They should remake Kirby64 for the Wii or at least the 3DS.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Because Kirby Air Ride is a canon game (until stated otherwise) that showcases the use of different air-rides. The air-rides are things that allow for speedy travel and can be sued for races. The Hydra and the Dragoon are two of "legendary" air rides that allow for movement beyond the use of Warp Star.



One could probably be skeptical of Kirby using the full speed of his interplanetary travel device in a racing competition, but sure, I'll buy that.

Now we go back to the FTL problem. Solve that one and you're set.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

It's fucking capable of inter-dimensional space travel from different planets that aren't even close to one another. Including the planets in Crystal Shards.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> It's fucking capable of inter-dimensional space travel from different planets that aren't even close to one another. Including the planets in Crystal Shards.



Rasengan

They use the crystal to travel in Crystal Shards, not a warp star.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Rasengan
> 
> They use the crystal to travel in Crystal Shards, not a warp star.



You're right, I forgot because my mind is jelly and my tiredness is tired, but man. You really truly think that the Warp Star isn't FTL because the planets are "close-together". It's a fucking small screened map from GBA.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

You seem a little frustrated.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 31, 2011)

Gomu said:


> You're right, I forgot because my mind is jelly and my tiredness is tired, but man. You really truly think that the Warp Star isn't FTL because the planets are "close-together". It's a fucking small screened map from GBA.



You made the claim. You have to provide evidence for it. That's just the way it works.

Also, I was mistaken. They do use the warp star to get to 02's planet in a few seconds, but said planet is shown to be right next to Ripple Star even in a cutscene, so no proof of FTL there.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> You seem a little frustrated.



Not gonna lie Dandy-boy. I am, even if you're trying to make me more frustrated, I am frustrated not because of your smart-aleckiness, but factoring that Eldritich as a defense against everything.


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## Dandy Elegance (Oct 31, 2011)

It's okay to be frustrated, little Gomu-kun.


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## Gomu (Oct 31, 2011)

Rasengan

Sorry but I gotta use the anime for this, as it shows more feats than the games because Nintendo didn't show the quality feats needed to be made for the game if you're actually gonna do this Eldritich. This video shows there is a such thing as Lightspeed in the Kirbyverse first off.

Rasengan

This shows the use of the warp star to chase across pop-star going towards the moon, than moving extremely fast and traversing the moon at high speeds.

Rasengan

Again Kirby moving at high speeds within space after the battle with Marx and Nova (who was flying straight towards Popstar as if a meteor).

That's about all I got for it.

Yes I know Dandy. I am frustrated, and you are "strong".


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Rasengan
> 
> Sorry but I gotta use the anime for this, as it shows more feats than the games because Nintendo didn't show the quality feats needed to be made for the game if you're actually gonna do this Eldritich. This video shows there is a such thing as Lightspeed in the Kirbyverse first off.



I never really doubted this to begin with, but refer to my earlier point. The ability to travel long distances at warp speed doesn't mean the ship and its crew can fight a full fledged battle at those speeds.



> Rasengan
> 
> This shows the use of the warp star to chase across pop-star going towards the moon, than moving extremely fast and traversing the moon at high speeds.
> 
> ...



Then the Kirbyverse isn't going to be doing any blitzing.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

I know this place is not the actual OBD however, I just checked a good number of the verses they had and the factors of many of the characters and scaled them towards the verses that were within the OBD. Although this OBD is not as developed as ours, it factors the same information of this OBD. This shows that Kirby does have FTL speed with the warp star and that Kirby is also able to punch a planet in half with one smash of his fist while in Fighter Kirby mode.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

I was already aware of the planet splitting, and that site gave no source for the FTL thing, so it's still no good.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

Will you at least admit to it being Relativistic?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Will you at least admit to it being Relativistic?



Sure. Seems reasonable enough.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

OK now we are getting somewhere. Lets grade the Warp Star as Relativistic+, now we go to the Legendary Air Ride machines. The Dragoon and the Hydra are weapons that if the Warp Star is Relativistic the Hydra and Dragoon are at least lightspeed the greatest speed being FTL. Again, even if its a stupid game, both Air Ride machines move much faster than the Warp Star *MUCH* faster. Do you agree to this?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 1, 2011)

So it seems the speed debate about the Warp Star was dealt with.

Ok now in all seriousness about the Squeak Squad picture if you actually look at it the Halberd and Pop Star are alot closer to the player's field of vision then the Black Hole or the Galaxy, those two are just extremely huge in the background of the map.

So we can't really scale the Halberd or Pop Star but we can figure that both the black hole and the Galaxy are larger then both. Again the map was designed so the ship and the planet were closer to the player then the galaxy and black hole.


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## DestinyDestroyer (Nov 1, 2011)

Can he get past Yukari, Flandre, Remilia, Shinki and Shiki Eiki?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 1, 2011)

^
Who Kirby?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> OK now we are getting somewhere. Lets grade the Warp Star as Relativistic+, now we go to the Legendary Air Ride machines. The Dragoon and the Hydra are weapons that if the Warp Star is Relativistic the Hydra and Dragoon are at least lightspeed the greatest speed being FTL. Again, even if its a stupid game, both Air Ride machines move much faster than the Warp Star *MUCH* faster. Do you agree to this?



I agree that they move however much faster than the warp star they've been shown to move. Proving that they're lightspeed or FTL based on that is your job.



ShikiYakumo said:


> So it seems the speed debate about the Warp Star was dealt with.
> 
> Ok now in all seriousness about the Squeak Squad picture if you actually look at it the Halberd and Pop Star are alot closer to the player's field of vision then the Black Hole or the Galaxy, those two are just extremely huge in the background of the map.
> 
> So we can't really scale the Halberd or Pop Star but we can figure that both the black hole and the Galaxy are larger then both. Again the map was designed so the ship and the planet were closer to the player then the galaxy and black hole.



Obviously. The black hole, if it indeed is one, is clearly behind Pop Star on the map screen.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 1, 2011)

To be honest im only calling it a black hole by it's design it's never explained what the hell it is.
For all we know it could be a planet covered in Dark Matter. (that would explain the entire looking like a black hole design.)


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

Well I showed that with the Dragoon moving so fast it cut straight through the subspace ship in an instant where Kirby became a flash of light in a streak.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> To be honest im only calling it a black hole by it's design it's never explained what the hell it is.
> For all we know it could be a planet covered in Dark Matter. (that would explain the entire looking like a black hole design.)



Dark Nebula does look like something that might be associated with Dark Matter, so that's possible.



Gomu said:


> Well I showed that with the Dragoon moving so fast it cut straight through the subspace ship in an instant where Kirby became a flash of light in a streak.



Cutting through Ganondorf's doomsday weapon only proves that the Dragoon can pierce through it easily and withstand going all the way through. That doesn't set light speed as a minimum at all.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Dark Nebula does look like something that might be associated with Dark Matter, so that's possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Cutting through Ganondorf's doomsday weapon only proves that the Dragoon can pierce through it easily and withstand going all the way through. That doesn't set light speed as a minimum at all.


this

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it increased in speed for that split second in which it shot past within a moments notice. In a universe where everyone has hypersonic speed and reactions (its fucking Super Smash Brawl) Kirby was moving at an accelerated rate where he could cut completely through that space in only a mere split-second (or more) once he figured out where he should strike.


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## sonic546 (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> this
> 
> That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it increased in speed for that split second in which it shot past within a moments notice.* In a universe where everyone has hypersonic speed and reactions (its fucking Super Smash Brawl) *Kirby was moving at an accelerated rate where he could cut completely through that space in only a mere split-second (or more) once he figured out where he should strike.



I'd call that a gameplay mechanic.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it increased in speed for that split second in which it shot past within a moments notice. In a universe where everyone has hypersonic speed and reactions (its fucking Super Smash Brawl) Kirby was moving at an accelerated rate where he could cut completely through that space in only a mere split-second (or more) once he figured out where he should strike.



Which, like I said, doesn't set a minimum of light speed at all.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Which, like I said, doesn't set a minimum of light speed at all.



OK then dude. Touhou is an extremely powerful verse and I know that it has more "feats" than Kirby. Seriously though, what more than you need. First off the factors of Touhou are also "in-game mechanics" would you not agree, do the characters talk about their abilities and such in a given time or moment. We know their are relativistic/light speed because they are moving at speeds that allow them to react to and defend against thousands upon thousands of charging enemies. What I'm trying to say is that Kirby having the ability to fly within a universe in the first place with his warp star rides and such. This gives more speculation that the item is much faster than your regular vehicles. Would you call a ship that travels from world's to world's in mere instances massively hypersonic, seriously?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> OK then dude. Touhou is an extremely powerful verse and I know that it has more "feats" than Kirby. Seriously though, what more than you need.



I need actual proof of the things you're suggesting. What part of that are you having trouble understanding? Piercing the subspace doom ship at high speeds does not equal light speed or FTL.



> First off the factors of Touhou are also "in-game mechanics" would you not agree, do the characters talk about their abilities and such in a given time or moment.



Um... yes, yes they do. I don't think I've brought up anything regarding Touhou gameplay mechanics throughout the entirety of this thread. The abilities of the Touhou cast are explained in official written works, character profiles, in-game dialogue, ZUN's commentary on spellcards, and the handful of canon manga. We occasionally see feats in the games as well, like the size of the sun Okuu created in Hell or Tenshi taking her fight with the protagonist into low orbit.



> We know their are relativistic/light speed because they are moving at speeds that allow them to react to and defend against thousands upon thousands of charging enemies.



Who is?



> What I'm trying to say is that Kirby having the ability to fly within a universe in the first place with his warp star rides and such. This gives more speculation that the item is much faster than your regular vehicles. Would you call a ship that travels from world's to world's in mere instances massively hypersonic, seriously?



If the warp star was unquestionably light speed or FTL, you should have been able to prove it by now.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

Ya know what. I give-up screw it, I'm tired, and exhausted. Touhou wins because my fucking mind goes blank. No Kirby has no "official" works saying that he can move at such speeds. But whatever, I've shown you proof of it and you're saying no. See what Yakumo has to say, I don't care.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Ya know what. I give-up screw it, I'm tired, and exhausted. Touhou wins because my fucking mind goes blank. No Kirby has no "official" works saying that he can move at such speeds. But whatever, I've shown you proof of it and you're saying no. See what Yakumo has to say, I don't care.



No, you haven't shown me proof of the warp star being light speed or FTL. If there's something I have yet to address, point it out to me.


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## Gomu (Nov 1, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> No, you haven't shown me proof of the warp star being light speed or FTL. If there's something I have yet to address, point it out to me.



Nothing I want to address, I don't care anymore without enough proof I have no argument so I respectfully remove myself from the argument and hope we are in future arguments to come where I have more feats to use. Seeya.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 1, 2011)

Gomu said:


> Nothing I want to address, I don't care anymore without enough proof I have no argument so I respectfully remove myself from the argument and hope we are in future arguments to come where I have more feats to use. Seeya.



Fair enough. A pleasure debating with you, regardless.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 2, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> If you want me to acknowledge that the Warp Star is FTL, then post some proof that it is. As in, something quantifiably FTL.



Planets and other celestial bodies tens of light years away from Pop Star, Kirby can fly in a very short time span. At normal cruising speeds and even at Relativistic speeds, the furthest spot in between that and Pop Star would take 100+ years at minimum due to distance. 



> Something quantifiable in a game that's... not really meant to be analysed seriously.
> 
> *Though I suppose you could just say effective space travel in the first place is FTL*.



What he said.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Planets and other celestial bodies tens of light years away from Pop Star, Kirby can fly in a very short time span. At normal cruising speeds and even at Relativistic speeds, the furthest spot in between that and Pop Star would take 100+ years at minimum due to distance.



A specific example would be nice, as well as the source for the tens of light years figure.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 2, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> A specific example would be nice, as well as the source for the tens of light years figure.



Average distance between planets and common sense.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Average distance between planets and common sense.



Again, a specific example would be nice.

Because this certainly isn't tens of light years.

Really, it's not like I'm asking for something unreasonable. If the warp star travels to distant planets at FTL speed all the time, it shouldn't be difficult to post a feat demonstrating it. That's all I want. Just one such feat, and conclusive evidence proving that it's indeed FTL.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

It's just the fact Kirby is capable of traveling past multiple worlds just to get to his next area.

It's not really a feat you can discredit just because it lacks the cutscene, it's pretty evident he needs the Star to travel from world to world.

Raidou's argument seems to make alot more sense then anything said so far with Warp Star's speed. (This speed feat debate concerns Meta Knight also.)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 2, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> *Again, a specific example would be nice.*
> 
> Because this certainly isn't tens of light years.
> 
> Really, it's not like I'm asking for something unreasonable. If the warp star travels to distant planets at FTL speed all the time, it shouldn't be difficult to post a feat demonstrating it. That's all I want. Just one such feat, and conclusive evidence proving that it's indeed FTL.



*THE ENTIRETY OF MILKY WAY WISHES GENIUS.*

And guess who else goes through the whole MWW scenario to fight the strongest warrior in the galaxy? That's right, Metaknight. Who does the same damn thing. Seriously Nine pages?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

Yeah it was.

Also the planets in Crystal Shards are close because Ribbon is opening portals. The planets are farther apart. The only legitamently close worlds are Ribbon's world and Dark Star.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 2, 2011)

Seriously 5 seconds, that's all it takes to figure this out.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> It's just the fact Kirby is capable of traveling past multiple worlds just to get to his next area.



Worlds shown to be quite close together in the only two examples I'm aware of right now, and that makes all the difference, because if another planet is noticeably closer than the Moon, it doesn't take FTL speed to reach it in seconds.



> It's not really a feat you can discredit just because it lacks the cutscene, it's pretty evident he needs the Star to travel from world to world.



What exactly am I discrediting? The feat is that Kirby travels to other celestial objects at high speeds on his warp star. That's it. You're turning this into a claim of FTL speed that you've thus far been unable to support.



Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> *THE ENTIRETY OF MILKY WAY WISHES GENIUS.*



Which has Kirby routinely traveling around a number of planets that don't even appear to be in different solar systems. Is there some in-game dialogue or something from the instruction book suggesting that this requires FTL speed? If so, post it and I'll concede the point.

Shiki already posted Meta Knight's version on the first page, in which a cutscene outright shows that the planets are all in the same neighborhood. There simply isn't enough distance between them for a travel time of a few seconds to be FTL. I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Worlds shown to be quite close together in the only two examples I'm aware of right now, and that makes all the difference, because if another planet is noticeably closer than the Moon, it doesn't take FTL speed to reach it in seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Seriously 5 seconds, that's all it takes to figure this out.



 **


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## Negative Zero (Nov 2, 2011)

So.....who wins this?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

Yes, what about it?



This is the Earth-Moon distance. Light crosses this distance in a little over one second. Even if those planets are Earth sized, the gap between them is smaller than this. Taking a few seconds to travel between them is not FTL.

I don't think I can put it into terms any simpler than this. Which part of this is still not registering?


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## EpicBroFist (Nov 2, 2011)

Kirby .


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Nov 2, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> **



Seriously, 4 posts is all it took and he's still bullshitting.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> Yes, what about it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Stop posting right now. What you're saying is absolutely retarded especially in comparison to that star map.

Distance, learn to grasp it.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Stop posting right now. What you're saying is absolutely retarded especially in comparison to that star map.
> 
> Distance, learn to grasp it.



I'll stop posting when you're actually willing to address my arguments. Crossing multiple planetary diameters in seconds is relativistic, not FTL. Get over it.

*EDIT:* Hell, let's make this even simpler.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLD23z8haf0[/YOUTUBE]
It takes Meta Knight roughly 5-6 seconds to fly to the first planet in that cutscene. Light would cover well over a hundred Earth diameters in that time period. Does it look like you could fit a line of 100+ planets between any of the objects in that cutscene?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

If that's true then Meta should just blitz the hell out of Youmu.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> If that's true then Meta should just blitz the hell out of Youmu.



If what's true?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

Sorry iPods are a pain in the ass to use in a debate, but anyway Meta's normal speed is relativistic where as Youmu's is Massively Hypersonic (or was it just Hypersonic?) and she needs a technique to be relativistic. MK just blitzes YK before she uses her speed boost attack.

Also how fast would you say these attacks are?

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRqGKTN9W5g[/YOUTUBE]


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Sorry iPods are a pain in the ass to use in a debate, but anyway Meta's normal speed is relativistic where as Youmu's is Massively Hypersonic (or was it just Hypersonic?) and she needs a technique to be relativistic. MK just blitzes YK before she uses her speed boost attack.



What technique? She uses super speed movements in the majority of her spellcards. It's not a specific technique, and as far as reactions go, Marisa reacted to her own Master Spark being bounced back at her. Youmu is almost certainly faster, and we know Youmu can react to her own speed since she can turn on a dime in mid-slash.



> Also how fast would you say these attacks are?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRqGKTN9W5g[/YOUTUBE]



Not fast enough to matter. Not against Youmu, anyway.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> What technique? She uses super speed movements in the majority of her spellcards. It's not a specific technique, and as far as reactions go, Marisa reacted to her own Master Spark being bounced back at her. Youmu is almost certainly faster, and we know Youmu can react to her own speed since she can turn on a dime in mid-slash.



Where are the sources where she is capable of doing half the things you said?

Because i know one of her techniques grant her relativistic speeds i just don't remember the name of it. But i would like to know some of these things like the reaction speeds that you mentioned.



> Not fast enough to matter. Not against Youmu, anyway.



Well i figured that but mostly where would you scale it at?

It's still fast as hell. (and probably the only attack video clip for Meta. Although his main series incarnation's attack speed should shit on his Brawl incarnation's attack speed.)


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Where are the sources where she is capable of doing half the things you said?
> 
> Because i know one of her techniques grant her relativistic speeds i just don't remember the name of it. But i would like to know some of these things like the reaction speeds that you mentioned.



Using her speed in most of her spellcards can be seen in PCB and StB. She turns in mid slash during Angel Dance in StB. Youmu has no special ability or technique that gives her super speed, she's just naturally that fast. Aya, one of the series' top tiers when it comes to speed, can't even see her movements during Angel Dance.

As for Marisa, she dodges a reflected Master Spark in her fight with Yorihime in SSiB. She's also able to react to a manipulated ray of light that Sunny shoots at her in SaBND.



> Well i figured that but mostly where would you scale it at?
> 
> It's still fast as hell. (and probably the only attack video clip for Meta. Although his main series incarnation's attack speed should shit on his Brawl incarnation's attack speed.)



I have no idea how to scale that.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

I think the Sunny feat was already dealt with in the Meta dome as aim dodging so there is no real reaction feats from that.


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## Weather (Nov 2, 2011)

> As for Marisa, she dodges a reflected Master Spark in her fight with Yorihime in SSiB. *She's also able to react to a manipulated ray of light that Sunny shoots at her in SaBND.*



That was Aim Dodging Eldritch.

The light Beam first landed on Sunny's hand before she shot it.

But the Master Spark one still remains and Marisa Herself is Massively Hypersonic (Imperishable Night puts her as the same speed rank as Remilia)


*Spoiler*: __


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 2, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> I think the Sunny feat was already dealt with in the Meta dome as aim dodging so there is no real reaction feats from that.



That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense in context. 

the neck

Judging by her reaction, she didn't even know about Sunny's ability. She would have had to know it was coming to aim dodge.


----------



## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 2, 2011)

Weather said:


> That was Aim Dodging Eldritch.
> 
> The light Beam first landed on Sunny's hand before she shot it.
> 
> ...





Eldritch Sukima said:


> That wouldn't make a whole lot of sense in context.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> Judging by her reaction, she didn't even know about Sunny's ability. She would have had to know it was coming to aim dodge.



You were saying?


----------



## Weather (Nov 2, 2011)

> You were saying?



That doesn't discredit Youmu's speed you know.

Just making corrections.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 3, 2011)

Link removed

To add to that, we don't even see Marisa reacting until after the beam strikes the water and bounces towards the cavern.

Then again, I'm so tired the words on the screen are blurring together, so I may not be looking at it the right way.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Weather said:


> That doesn't discredit Youmu's speed you know.
> 
> Just making corrections.



Never said it did, also the Marx fight was a stalemate Flandre can't catch Marx but Marx has no way to hurt Flandre without his black hole move which he needs to get close for that and knowing Marx he won't do that unless Flandre hurts him enough.


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## Weather (Nov 3, 2011)

> Never said it did, also the Marx fight was a stalemate Flandre can't catch Marx but Marx has no way to hurt Flandre without his black hole move which he needs to get close for that and knowing Marx he won't do that unless Flandre hurts him enough.



Are the fights Bloodlusted or IC?

IC would Marx run away and not do anything? Much less without knowledge of Flandre's ability?

If you say yes then... yeah it's a stalemate.

If not... he gets Kyuued.

Bloodlusted is even simpler, no character would run away in a Bloodlusted fight.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Marx is default bloodlusted due to being bat shit insane but the guy also showed that he spams teleportation and ranged attacks like a laser that comes out of his mouth or weird bean stalk things that will impaile their victim via spikes. So basically he doesn't go into cqc until he has to bloodlusted or not.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 3, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Marx is default bloodlusted due to being bat shit insane but the guy also showed that he spams teleportation and ranged attacks like a laser that comes out of his mouth or weird bean stalk things that will impaile their victim via spikes. So basically he doesn't go into cqc until he has to bloodlusted or not.



Flandre nuked a meteor with her ability. It has longer range than anything Marx uses in either of his battles with Kirby. The stalemate would be if he teleported into space, beyond her demonstrated range. Neither could do anything to the other at that distance.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Which is another reason why he is able to stalemate against her.


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## Weather (Nov 3, 2011)

So how that does tell me the he would just go to orbit and attack from there?
Much less before Flandre closes her fist? 

He doesn't even know Flandre's range which is several  kilometers long.

Sure he attacks from range but from several kilometers long without no knowledge?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Usually what he does plus he isn't stupid, the guy will know she is planning something or going to do something. He tricked Kirby into summoning the god tier of the Kirbyverse just so he could make the sun and moon fight each other.


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## Weather (Nov 3, 2011)

So he would know that in the moment Flandre closes her fist he is going to blow up so he is gonna go: "I need to get fuck out of here to... orbit!"

Come on.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

No I'm saying he's not going to stay in one place for Flandre to do that, he won't know what she'll do but like I said the guy is alot smarter then your giving him credit for. He's mostly going to spam teleport anyway.


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## Skye S (Nov 3, 2011)

Honestly, if I was bloodlusted, I wouldn't teleport away when someone makes a fist. I'd attempt to avoid it and take his head off. So I fail to see why he'd try to fly out of range when bloodlusted without prior knowledge.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Theres a difference between you and Marx. Your not him.


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## Skye S (Nov 3, 2011)

So simply because he's different, we'll assume he'll pull off something illogical?


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 3, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> No I'm saying he's not going to stay in one place for Flandre to do that, he won't know what she'll do but like I said the guy is alot smarter then your giving him credit for. He's mostly going to spam teleport anyway.



Spamming teleportation won't help unless, like I said, he teleports out of her range entirely. Flandre's ability isn't really something you can dodge.


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## Negative Zero (Nov 3, 2011)

I'll.....just go ahead and cast my vote for Kirby.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Skye S said:


> So simply because he's different, we'll assume he'll pull off something illogical?



Good job, you fail to understand how he fights. 

There is nothing illogical about it he's a ranged fighter and he is always in bloodlust, he chooses to avoid cqc even while he's bloodlusted.

So what was it you were saying?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 3, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Good job, you fail to understand how he fights.
> 
> There is nothing illogical about it he's a ranged fighter and he is always in bloodlust, he chooses to avoid cqc even while he's bloodlusted.
> 
> So what was it you were saying?



Flandre's ability isn't limited to CQC range. If he fights like he did in both battles with Kirby, he's going to die.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Not really arguing against it, just trying to say the Marx isn't going to try and blitz Flandre.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 3, 2011)

ShikiYakumo said:


> Not really arguing against it, just trying to say the Marx isn't going to try and blitz Flandre.



Well you sort of are arguing against it if you think Marx stalemates. That will only happen if he teleports away into space and doesn't try to fight her at all. If he fights the way he fought Kirby he's dead. 

If he's bloodlusted and has no knowledge whatsoever, why would he retreat into space right off the bat?


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## Dandy Elegance (Nov 3, 2011)

Seems people are getting a little frustrated here.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Nov 3, 2011)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Well you sort of are arguing against it if you think Marx stalemates. That will only happen if he teleports away into space and doesn't try to fight her at all. If he fights the way he fought Kirby he's dead.
> 
> If he's bloodlusted and has no knowledge whatsoever, why would he retreat into space right off the bat?



I meant that I wasn't arguing aginst you I was trying to explain something, of course I still see this as a stalemate because of more annoying powers.

Never said he would go to space right away. Although the first thing he did in the Kirby fight was fly away to lure Kirby to his arena.


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## Skye S (Nov 4, 2011)

So if he doesn't go into space right away, Flandre can probably kill him?
I still fail to see how he'd avoid her attack if he doesn't flee immediately; would he simply conveniently fly just out of her range and attack?
My fault if I missed something. >_>


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## Eldritch Sukima (Nov 4, 2011)

Trying to fight her at all gets him killed, pretty much. Her ability should be an instant kill, there's no way for him to see it coming without knowledge, and there's really no way for him to avoid it. It involves crushing something completely separate from his physical body, and it shouldn't matter where he is when that happens, so teleportation won't help.

He can't fight her from long range since her ability has a much longer range than any of his attacks. If he's close enough to attack her, he's close enough to be blown up. The only way for him to force a stalemate is to immediately teleport into space, farther away than the demonstrated range of her ability, and just stay there. Which doesn't seem very likely since he's bloodlusted and has no idea what she's capable of.


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