# The Ei thread



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Assume EI will use V2 off the bat in each match. 

location: open field
distance: 20m
restrictions: none

1) orochimaru
2) jiriaya
3) tsunade
4) MS sasuke- against danzo
5) kakashi 

how do each of them fair if Ei goes V2 off the bat 

orochimaru takes the intial punch. gets up and they fight. orochimaru poison gets the better of Ei and oro wins

jiriaya uses FCD. gains some distance and should win 

tsunade should win. loosing a head hasnt been implied to kill her and isnt worse than being split in half. if we imagine people would normally die that way due to severed spine. that also happens when you are split in half 

also despite orochimaru weilding a sword capable of cutting her neck. once she used her creation rebirth orochimaru decided to suffocate her. not chop her head off

MS sasuke against danzo should win. dont need to debate that 

MS kakashi kamui's to escape. then should win.


----------



## Turrin (May 1, 2015)

> orochimaru takes the intial punch. gets up and they fight. orochimaru poison gets the better of Ei and oro wins


The bias is hilarious


----------



## Deer Lord (May 1, 2015)

Only sasuke can win.
I'd give him a 50/50 chance.

the rest aren't a match to his speed.


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The bias is hilarious



please do explain what will Ei do to kill orochimaru
the only way for him to win is through exhausting orochimaru
unless u got some fan fic way 

orochimaru poison will work just fine. unless u think its only sasori who got poison 

8 headed snake works well here. Ei cuts it up. poison in the air. Ei stops moving. orochimaru can kill him 

please do explain your unbiased opinion on the matter 

 couldnt say that without laughing

maybe u think orochimaru loosing his head can kill him. looooolz

@deer lord why cant kakashi use kamui to escape the intial blitz? send a clone back to the real word. Ei hits it. kakashi comes back to the real world and kills Ei
do explain why that wont work 

also FCD is a summoning that automatically makes it faster than Ei as it is an ST. i dont see why jiriaya cant react to Ei amping up then using a blitz when all he has to do is form 1 seal and a toad falls down from the sky 

tsunade loosing her head wont kill her. not when being split in half didnt. the woman was still able to heal the 4 other kage while split in half


----------



## Deer Lord (May 1, 2015)

When has kakashi kamui'd something as fast as V2 ei?
and even if he can use kamui to escape, how would his clone/himself kill ei?
he literally has nothing on him.

we have already seen that chidori barely grazed him.


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

i am not talking about kamui'ng Ei
i am saying kakashi can use kamui on himself to escape the initial blitz

i dont see why he cant do that 

his clone will shock Ei. stunning him. The original comes and uses kamui on a stationary Ei 

kakashi can use kamui several times before running out of steam

Do explain why you think Ei can harm orochimaru though. am curious to find out


----------



## Deer Lord (May 1, 2015)

Ei can harm him with ease, it's just that oro can regen
they are both chakra beats, but regenerating take more of a toll.

so oro loses in a tug of war.


----------



## Ghost (May 1, 2015)

>lightning clone paralyzing a guy who uses raiton no yoroi

sure

and where does it imply that Tsunade can regenerate from getting her head cut off? She couldn't even regenerate from getting cut in half on her own. Ei can just stomp her head into a bloody stain on the ground.


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

lol oro doesnt need to regen. though. he had a giant sword through him and didnt need to regen
got split in half and didnt need to regen. so why would ei punches force a regen ?

can you prove regen takes more of a toll than using V2 shunshin through out?

also again oral rebirth would hardly be needed here. not when orochimaru bascially snitched himself back together after being split in half 

are we also forgetting that orochimaru white snake form is auto GG against Ei. Ei hits it. poison spreads 

Ei is immobilized. seriously ei would have to exhaust orochimaru thats the only way for him to win

now someone who can use senjutsu chakra and has 5 in stamina isnt goign to be exhausted all that quick


@saikyou lightning did stun sasuke when darui used it. sasuke diffused it. granted but lets not assume lightnign jutsu cant do anything to lightning users
loool i love your bias reading always fun to see how u fail 

tsunade could not heal her being split in half on her own due to chakra not ability. she had just healed 4 other kages and had fought for several hours. 

now all that chakra saved up to use at the start of battle. means she is casually healing. if all it took to kill her was being split in half kishi wont have hyped her to be unkillable in battle 

not when orochimaru can survive being split in half with a smile on his face

this assumes that Ei goes for the head shot. i hope he does, cuz if his hand gets stuck in her torso she breaks his hand and beats Ei with it. 

she is horrendously much much stronger than Ei is. physically


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> >lightning clone paralyzing a guy who uses raiton no yoroi
> 
> sure
> 
> and where does it imply that Tsunade can regenerate from getting her head cut off? She couldn't even regenerate from getting cut in half on her own. Ei can just stomp her head into a bloody stain on the ground.



Swear everything you say about Tsunade is incorrect. 

You mean Chakra Exhausted Tsunade couldn't heal herself after summoning Katsuyu and healing the other 4 Kage ?


----------



## Ghost (May 1, 2015)

Ei has lightning chakra constantly surrounding him and running inside him when using RnY, how is a lightning clone going to affect him in any way? Even if Ei was in base at the moment when the lightning from the clone hits him, I doubt it would even have an effect.

So please. 

Assuming Ei has manga knowledge I assume he would go for the head considering he knows of Tsunade's regeneration abilities. Tsunade's superior strength is useless when she doesn't have the speed and reactions to avoid Ei's hits or durability to take them without consequences.


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

@like boss thank you 

seriously orochimaru without trying at all survives being split in half. i dont see why tsunade who actually has a regenration technique herself and katsuyu as a summon will have any trouble at all stichign herself up. with 100% of her chakra at her disposal 

lets not forget all she needs to do is hit Ei once to win very casually. Ei isnt surviving tsunade punching him

sasuke can use chidori nagashi yet can still be numbed by lightning. try harder 

again loosing her head wont kill her. no reason it would. when the likes of hidan and orochimaru similar pseduo immortals can survive loosing a head 

so Ei takes her head off. good for him. tsunade summons katsuyu. puts her head back together. unless u imagine Ei chops her head off. and full blitzes her head and smashes it into pieces before tsunade can use summoning which appears instantly

so far pseduo immortals 

sasori puppet body
orochimaru
hidan
kakuzu
tsunade

i dont see why any would die to loosing their head. not when kishi has gone ahead and shown each of their weaknessess and how they can be killed. loosing a head isnt one of those

tsunade- suffocation. chakra exhaustion, super powered attacks FRS and the likes (tsunade did say she cant heal FRS level damage)
orochimaru- chakra exhaustion, super powered attacks BD and the likes (he did say on panel he could die from such)
hidan- oddly enough not eating or sustaining his body
kakuzu- dies 5 times
sasori- his heart cannister

assuming they can die in other random ways is fan fic


----------



## Eliyua23 (May 1, 2015)

Ei loses all of these


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Orochimaru can use his 5 elemental seal to block Ei chakra. Ei won't be able to fight once he gets hit by that 

Oro body allows for mutually destructive attacks . He can attack Ei and not care about the counter 

I think people forget this jutsu far too often . He can seal Ei chakra with just a touch


----------



## Ghost (May 1, 2015)

So Oro is faster than Ei now?


----------



## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

Oro's only chance is to outlast Ei. Good luck when he is forced to use Oral Rebirth as Ei will be cutting him to pieces and  if Oro doesn't get distance, he's screwed.

Jiraiya and Tsunade are both beheaded before Byakugo even comes into play. 20 Meters and V2 Ei says nothing but a speedblitz.

And i am having serious doubts about MS Kakashi and Sasuke effectively countering, too. Sasuke could, because Susano'o activation is pretty fast, but i am not very sure if he could pull it off in time.


----------



## Alex Payne (May 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> jiriaya uses FCD. gains some distance and should win





Icegaze said:


> Assume EI will use V2 off the bat in each match.
> location: open field
> distance: 20m





Icegaze said:


> distance: 20m





Icegaze said:


> EI will use V2 off the bat





Icegaze said:


> jiriaya uses FCD.


d d


----------



## Ghost (May 1, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Oro's only chance is to outlast Ei.



Oro's chakra reserves and stamina don't even compare to Ei's. He has zero chances of winning.


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

No oro isn't 
He doesn't need to be 
He can take the hit then counter attack 

He doesnt have to worry about being hit 

Danzo did the same thing against sasuke.  This is how Danzo was landing his hits 

Ei can't do anything to Orochimaru wxcept hope Orochimaru runs out of steam

Oro white snake form releases poison into the air . Ei will get paralyzed before he knows it 

From there Ei gets trolled

At Alex FCD is a summoning it's instant . Why won't it work ? Jiriaya certainly can't move against Ei but 1 basic seal is all
He needs 

Hardly a stretch considering sasuke had the time to use Enton and shape manipulate it


----------



## Ghost (May 1, 2015)

How is Danzo vs Sasuke fight even comparable to Ei vs Orochimaru? Ei rag dolls Oro to death. The Sannin won't get to do shit when Ei keeps blitzing him over and over.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 1, 2015)

He would win against everyone besides maybe sasuke due to instantly conjured complete susanoo(he showed he can at least form a thought against V2 A which is all he needs to susanoo)+enton(if he is smart using it).

How do people keep thinking these combatants with inferior reflexes to minato will avoid A shunshin out the gate offense? When the yellow flash needs instant teleportation hax to get out the way that should say something. Not to mention none of them can survive/fight without a head A just tear them apart until they can't do anything else.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 1, 2015)

The distance is too small and A goes v2 right Off the bat. It is too hard to see a way either one survives.
Does  Jiraiya start in base ? If he doesn't, maybe he has a chance with kawazu naki because it is sounds speed and then Jiraiya can kill him with FCD, just maybe, a big Maybe actually
Sasuke might survive with susanoo
Dunno about the others 
So nobody has a better chance to survive than let's say 20-25 %


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

Saikyou said:


> How is Danzo vs Sasuke fight even comparable to Ei vs Orochimaru? Ei rag dolls Oro to death. The Sannin won't get to do shit when Ei keeps blitzing him over and over.



its comprable because sasuke coudlnt kill danzo till izanagi exhausted despite ragdollign danzo 

same way ei cant kill orochimaru till orochimaru runs out of steam 

not happening when oro can use white snake form which Ei cant do anything against. btw white same form is also 8 branch technique. i dont mean the white snake form he uses when he is trying to take over a body

Ei hurts it. and he paralyses himself

orochimaru will not need to keep using oral rebirth. not when he has just transformed into an 8 headed snake. Ei will cut each head 1 by 1. only to release poison into the air. yamata no orochi is a technique orochimaru has used before considering itachi recognized it. its also called orochimaru strongest snake technique. 

i see no reason to assume orochimaru stands there and keeps getting ragdolled. after the first attack which he survives while laughing. he opts for a jutsu which prevents him from being hit so casually

why do people assume tsunade loosing her head kills her?

or that her having 2.5 years worth of chakra would be exhausted before she can hit Ei once which is all she needs 

kakashi kamui is faster than obito's he should have no issue escaping Ei blitz.


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2015)

All I know is that if ay doesn't murder tsuande  in the very first attack, then he isn't going to win. Byakago + Katsuyu + chakra to the feet method + a simple block, is a tactic that would lead to Ay's death. Especially considering she can create shockwaves strong enough to send several human+ sized beings 100+ meters away by punching the ground.

And it actually would go against Tsunade's nature to die from being beheaded. Not only is she hyped to never die in battle( some Shinobi specialize in beheading, and be-heading has even occurred/attempted several times in this manga) but she has feats of surviving injuries that would instantly kill a human being without her regeneration active; such as having her organs butchered and being split in half yet still being able to move and/or continue battle.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 1, 2015)

All of them lose except for Sasuke, and Kakashi if he is allowed to use body phasing, although I am not sure if he had that ability with only 1 MS.


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2015)

kakashi doesnt have said ability 

why wont kamui wraping himself work though? when his is quicker than obito's?

why does orochimaru loose? what happened to poison being released when 8 headed snake looses its heads?

@like boss i agree with you. its ridiculous she dies due to loosing a head considering she is hyped to never die in battle. those with similar abilities and hype can all survive such an injury no reason she would be different 

hidan who got lol durability and healing factor compared to tsunade can survive loosing his head. tsunade does the same

summons katsuyu, her head gets reattached. from there Ei would not be pulling off the same trick twice.

note 2 susanoo V3 blades wasnt enough to split her in half. so its not like her head is going to be so easy to remove.


----------



## LostSelf (May 1, 2015)

If Tsunade is hit by Jinton...Wouldn't she die? Or if she's Soul Ripped by Nagato? Or if she's hit with Big Bang Kamehameha X 100 from SSJ4 Gogeta fused with Bills and Golden Frieza?

If the answer is yes, then she can die in battle.

Not saying a head cut can kill her (It's only proven by a flawed DB description), but if Ei cuts her head off she outright loses. Byakugo won't create a new head like if she were Timmy telling Wanda to get a new one and poof, done. It would take quite some time.

More than enough for Ei to keep severing her limbs until she cannot heal any longer.


----------



## Bonly (May 1, 2015)

Orochi gets hit and get right back up. Jiraiya be able to do his flattening jutsu or bring out a summoning or he might get punched in the face, not sure. Tsunade goes the same road as Orochi most likely. Sasuke puts up Susanoo to protect himself. And Kakashi is likely gonna get punched in the face.


----------



## Veracity (May 1, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> If Tsunade is hit by Jinton...Wouldn't she die? Or if she's Soul Ripped by Nagato? Or if she's hit with Big Bang Kamehameha X 100 from SSJ4 Gogeta fused with Bills and Golden Frieza?
> 
> If the answer is yes, then she can die in battle.
> 
> ...



Still doesn't necessarily mean she would be killed by decapitation. She pretty much wouldn't die unless she's chakra exhausted, soup ripped( which is actually pretty cheap and isn't " physically" actually killing the opponent and was prolly never actually thought when the statement was made) or if her body is instantaneously obliterated. And the DB statement really isn't the only thing that backs up her surviving decapitation... Just cause she hasn't been specifically placed in that situation doesn't mean she hasn't already blizted opponents with her guts spilt on the ground or moved while being in two completely different pieces and survived for hours already chakra exhausted.


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Still doesn't necessarily mean she would be killed by decapitation. She pretty much wouldn't die unless she's chakra exhausted, soup ripped( which is actually pretty cheap and isn't " physically" actually killing the opponent and was prolly never actually thought when the statement was made) or if her body is instantaneously obliterated. And the DB statement really isn't the only thing that backs up her surviving decapitation... Just cause she hasn't been specifically placed in that situation doesn't mean she hasn't already blizted opponents with her guts spilt on the ground or moved while being in two completely different pieces and survived for hours already chakra exhausted.



Regeneration often fails. Look at Juudara and how Gai almost killed him. Probably because he didn't target the head. Who knows.

I doubt she will blitz somebody. When she pulled those two blades from her body, she collapsed from pain. Without the head connected to the body, i don't think she can move until she regenerates the head.

I was pointing out she can die. DB doesn't add jutsus as exception. It says it's impossible to die in battle. The jutsu appeared after Jinton and Soul Rip, therefore i don't think Kishi forgot that, or that Kishi said it's impossible to die save some jutsus. Because that would be him heavily contradicting himself. The sole reason that Jinton can kill her says DB is more superficial words than anything. Just like it says Amaterasu is as hot as the sun.

That said, my point is that even if she can survive a head cut, she won't win. Because Ei won't let her regen. She won't outlast Ei regenerating her limbs, with all the crazy amount of chakra this might take.


----------



## ARGUS (May 2, 2015)

Ay beats all of them, albeit not just from one punch, 

 -- starting distance of 20m means that none of them are even reacting to him, let alone physically being able to evade his attacks, added to the fact that one punch knocks them down and Ay contines to smash their brains out till they die, 



> Orochimaru


He is not doing jack shit to Ay, he cant hurt him nor could he land a hit on him, he gets punched to oblivion and ragdolled to an extent where he will run out of oral rebirth and die 



> Jiraiya


from a distance this short he cant prevent himself from Ays attacks either, not when alll of his attacks are piss slow in front of him, the likes of FCD being even mentioned here is a joke, when we consider the fact that its against a far far faster opponent, who he cant even track ffs 
Ay comes up to him and lateral chops his head off 
jiraiya starting in base is just a massacre, 



> Tsunade


She gets beheaded just like jiraiya did making her unable to fight 



> MS Sasuke


Danzo fight ssauke or not, he got canonically shit blitzed by Ay, so a starting diistance of 20m and Ay going V2 off the batt means that he gets blitzed and beaten to oblivion before susanoo even comes to play,, 
he isnt landing a hit on Ay and susanoo wears him even quicker, 



> Kakashi


Using kamui on an opponent that he cant even track is completely meaningless, added to the fact that he has physically no way of protecting himself means that he gets his brains smashed just like most of the others


----------



## Veracity (May 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Regeneration often fails. Look at Juudara and how Gai almost killed him. Probably because he didn't target the head. Who knows.
> 
> I doubt she will blitz somebody. When she pulled those two blades from her body, she collapsed from pain. Without the head connected to the body, i don't think she can move until she regenerates the head.
> 
> ...



When does regeneration often fail? 

I didn't mean she was blitzing anyone here, just that she has blizted people while being rusty after getting sliced and sliced and sliced and a sliced. And I took it as Tsunade collapsed for a second after being physically fatigued and fighting with her spinal cord snapped for several minutes. She has never once shown pain from any other injury, even injuries that were far worse.

There is a difference between context there. Tsunade isn't a reality Warper, and the statement was clearly made in reference to actual injuries attained to the body. Something like Jinton literally turns her into nothing, and something like soul rip completely supersedes the limits of her Justu. It's easy to see the context as essentially Tsuande being able to regenerate if there is something for her to regenerate from. Or maybe that's how I just interpreted it.  And even then that statement correlates with Tsuandes Feats when actually placed in front of practical injuries like her guts being spilt on the floor or her being split in half for many and many hours. Amaterasu on the hand doesn't have feats to live up to its hype like Tsuande does.

I agree that ay would win in the scenario that he is 20m away with V2 already active.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

@lostself saying she can't die in battle isn't an exaggeration 

Jinton being able to one shot her is factual because Kishi also says Jinton atomizes everything and tsunads herself said she cannot heal molecular level damage . So yes Kishi in a round about way already told us Jinton will kill her . Same way he told us a direct bijuudama will kill Orochimaru . Despite calling Orochimaru immortal 

So no loosing her head is just that . She won't die . She looses her head and summons katsuyu who pretty can take punches from Ei all day . Katsuyu puts her head back on and they keep fighting 

@argus why can't oro use 8 branch technique ?? Ei defeats the snakes and spreads poison . Its silly and 1 track to think oro will keep using oral rebirth. When he can oral rebirth himself into the ground escaping Ei Los

Then coming back up with 8 headed snake 

 Kakashi uses Kamui on himself to escape. no one mentioned Kakashi using kamui on a mobile Ei 

I wonder why you think jiriaya needs to react to use FCD. He has just seen a cloaked guy with bijuu level chakra . You think he won't want to create distance ? 

Also won't his hair jutsu protect him from fatal damage ? At which point being sent flying works to his advantage . Again the fight starts with Ei havin just powered up . Ei isn't mid blitz here 

I think once they all block or survive his first hit they win . Especially Ms sasuke who fought Danzo . He lol puts susanoo up and grabs Ei eventually . Ei can't do anytbing to V1 Susanoo escape look stupid infront of it


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> When does regeneration often fail?
> 
> I didn't mean she was blitzing anyone here, just that she has blizted people while being rusty after getting sliced and sliced and sliced and a sliced. And I took it as Tsunade collapsed for a second after being physically fatigued and fighting with her spinal cord snapped for several minutes. She has never once shown pain from any other injury, even injuries that were far worse.



Actually it wasn't because of fatigue, and wasn't one second. I am not sure how much it was, but almost 10 seconds would be my bet. Why i say didn't collapse from fatigue was because after that time in the floor, she was able to stand up by herself and still super charge Onoki's Jinton to the point of making it incredibly huge. But i do agree she was getting more fatigated like everybody else  fight, but if she was so fatigated to collapse, she wouldn't have been able to stand up after and jump.

She felt a lot of pain when she pulled it off, i think the damage that pulling out the huge blades made were a bit much.

Regeneration can fail. For example, Juudara almost dies with a blunt force attack from Gai. And after he regenerates and feels unable to dodge Naruto's attack, he attributes that, at first, to the damage not being completely healed from the hit. I know that Night Gai is above Ei's attacks, but downscaling it, Tsunade would receive as much damage from Ei as the damage Madara did from Gai, wich may kill her just like it could've killed Madara.



> There is a difference between context there. Tsunade isn't a reality Warper, and the statement was clearly made in reference to actual injuries attained to the body. Something like Jinton literally turns her into nothing, and something like soul rip completely supersedes the limits of her Justu. It's easy to see the context as essentially Tsuande being able to regenerate if there is something for her to regenerate from. Or maybe that's how I just interpreted it.  And even then that statement correlates with Tsuandes Feats when actually placed in front of practical injuries like her guts being spilt on the floor or her being split in half for many and many hours. Amaterasu on the hand doesn't have feats to live up to its hype like Tsuande does.



Well then, the problem with that (I have no problems with your interpretation) is that most people would prefer to take the DB literally. What i mean is that it says it's impossible to die in battle. That sentence encompasses every jutsu, everything. And anybody saying how the DB was meant in the eyes on the author when it says a different thing would be asked for proofs about it.

I mean, saying how Kishi should've meant to write it when the DB says something different.

However, that's the reason (above) why i think it's possible for her to die with a powerful attack, even if it doesn't erase her. The damage just has to be powerful enough to kill, killing her before Byakugo begins to do so, and there are techniques that are capable of this. EE and Night Gai are some safe ones. That is, making a comparison with Juudara, who i see superior even in regeneration skills solely for being the mighty Juubi Jin.

@Icegaze. I don't think Katsuyu can bother Ei, honestly. I think Ei can run through it with his slicing attack. But that's another type of thread. In this thread, i don't see Tsunade summoning Katsuyu. Manga Knowledge will have Ei beheading her and preventing her from doing a thing. Dunno, like kicking her head away. I don't think her body would be able to move without a head either, as it needs the head to do so.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

@lostself 
Ei cant do shit to katsuyu though. he can punch it all day and katsuyu wont even tell. 

Slicing attack simply splits katsuyu into 2 different katsuyu. that doesnt help Ei. 

Why wont tsunade summon katsuyu when she needs to reattach herself. something she will quickly realize once her head leaves her body. 

she only need use 1 seal and katsuyu appears. Now i am not one to claim she regrows a head but reattaching one isnt an issue and shouldnt be


----------



## Ghost (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze-kun, how does Tsunade form seals if her head is removed from her body? How does the brain sends signals to the body if it is not attached to it? 

Let's say Ei just chops Tsunade in half or tears out a limb or two. Now you say Tsunade just summons Katsuyu to help her stitch the body back together, why in this wonderland scenario does Ei allow all of this to happen? There are no turns in a battle.



Icegaze said:


> Why wont tsunade summon katsuyu when she needs to reattach herself. *something she will quickly realize once her head leaves her body.*



I have no words.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

The same way her body was still sending signal when her spine was split in half 
You know the thing that allows sending of signals to the rest of the body 

So if she can survive being split 

Loosing a head would have the same effect 

Do read up on the spine

Here is a link 

*who evaded a KCM chakra arm assisted FRS*

Learn something


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

The brain is what sends the orders for the body to move, wich is why we have control of ourselves. I am not a master on the matter, but not being attached to the body won't make it possible for her to move. It's like saying we cut her hand and she can move her hand wirelessly. It's not possible in this case. When her spinal cord was cut, she still had her arms and head attached to the part she moved. The fact that she needed Katsuyu to attach and bring her legs says she couldn't move them.

I know Ei cannot do a thing to Katsuyu. What i said is that Katsuyu cannot do much to Ei either. If Ei wants to reach a Tsunade hidding in Katsuyu, he can do so cutting through her to reach Tsunade. Even though that would depend on the size, but if Ei cannot move well inside Katsuyu, then Tsunade on equal grounds maybe not move as fast either.

I don't think Katsuyu can prevent Ei from grabbing Tsunade's head and throwing it out. After all, he has knowledge and he is much faster than the slug.


----------



## Ghost (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> The same way her body was still sending signal when her spine was split in half
> You know the thing that allows sending of signals to the rest of the body
> 
> So if she can survive being split
> ...


----------



## Veracity (May 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually it wasn't because of fatigue, and wasn't one second. I am not sure how much it was, but almost 10 seconds would be my bet. Why i say didn't collapse from fatigue was because after that time in the floor, she was able to stand up by herself and still super charge Onoki's Jinton to the point of making it incredibly huge. But i do agree she was getting more fatigated like everybody else  fight, but if she was so fatigated to collapse, she wouldn't have been able to stand up after and jump.
> 
> She felt a lot of pain when she pulled it off, i think the damage that pulling out the huge blades made were a bit much.
> 
> ...



That feat really bothers me, because not only is it a low end feat for Tsuande, but it goes against all her other feats. She had incredible pain tolerance and has never once actually shown major signs of pain except for there...
Intercostal lungs and muscles severed, any major signs of pain? No: Manda
Midsection destroyed, any signs of inability to fight? No: Manda
Being stabbed and Yasaka'd, any signs of real pain ?No: Manda
Being split in half, and still taking the pain like a bad ass: Manda
The pain inflicted on her by those swords wasn't really any greater than any of those feats, and Tsuande accomplished some of those feats without being rusty or chakra exhausted and without regeneration. That's why I believe that low end feat for Tsuande is more according to a lack of chakra and/or physical fatigue. You know how after a long run, you kinda just take a seat for a second, and can easily just get back up and run if you want to ? That's kinda how I saw that scene considering it wouldn't actually make sense for her to be at her limit.

Can you post panels of the Madara scene you are talking about

Most people don't really take it really serious as it's incredibly hyperbolic. But even then, it can easily be used to hype up certain characters or justu. Amaterasu isn't as hot as the sun, but because it receives such hype, it's obvious that it can be considered the hottest flame in the manga, as no others receive such hype. Tsuande being exclaimed as unkillable is clearly a hyperbole, but I think the context is obvious. Considering she basically just has super Regen, when KISHI says she's unkillable, the average person thinks of practical ways that Individual would die from; being shot, a slit throat, ruptured organs, severed heart, lack of air, decapitation, contact to flames, etc. And so far , Tsunade has survived:
? Being split in half
? Ruptured organs
? lack of air( targeted intercostal lungs)
? spinal cord being snapped( regenerated nerve endings?)
? being exposed to extremely hot flames
? chakra exhaustion.

I think her feats are enough to assume she could survive decapitation. I don't believe she could survive being reduced to a toe nail, but decapitation is far lesser.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

Knowledge is important.

*Orochimaru*

Without knowledge and with an immediate v2, he dies. If he had knowledge of A, which he probably does to be fair, then yeah, the White Snake blood toxins make an easy victory for Orochimaru.

*Jiraiya*

He'll die without knowledge. With knowledge, he can buy himself time with Yomi Numa, or summoning Gamabunta and getting some distance. Then he can go Sage and win.

*Tsunade*

Depending on how A hits her, she could win i.e. if his hand goes through her chest, and she grabs him: game over. But if he goes for the ol' head-chop, then she'd be down for the count.

*MS Sasuke (Danzou)*

With or without knowledge, v3 Susano'o blocks the v2 blitz, and then an arrow takes him down. The v2 shunshin only lasts a few seconds. Susano'o last for like fifteen minutes.

*MS Kakashi*

With or without knowledge, my money would be on Kamui snipe. It's possible that without knowledge though, if A goes around for a back-blow, then Kakashi wouldn't do it in time.​


----------



## Nikushimi (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Assume EI will use V2 off the bat in each match.



A can't use V2; he doesn't have Bijuu chakra.



> location: open field
> distance: 20m
> restrictions: none
> 
> 1) orochimaru



See: Hulk vs. Loki.



> 2) jiriaya



Jiraiya gets scalped and fed his own hair.



> 3) tsunade



Tsunade gets cut in half, then the Raikage takes one half and runs off with it.



> 4) MS sasuke- against danzo



Susano'o cockblock followed by agonizing game of tag; A is fast enough and has enough stamina to evade Sasuke all day, but Sasuke is far more cunning than A and likely would think of a way to corner him using less obvious/direct applications of his Jutsu. I'd side with Sasuke, after much difficulty.



> 5) kakashi



The Raikage wears Kakashi's torso like a Livestrong wristband.



Turrin said:


> The bias is hilarious



...What bias? I completely disagree with him, but nothing he said was unreasonable or showing unfair judgment.


----------



## Rocky (May 2, 2015)

The distance is probably too short for Jiraiya to run away from v2 A. I don't really see Yomi Numa as a technique with a fast enough activation time to be used in response to a max powered Shunshin.

Also, v2 lasts longer than a few seconds. It isn't Biju amounts of stamina being expended with one flicker. If that were the case, A would have Jubi-tier stamina, which is no. The Biju level thing was A gathering up chakra so he could spam v2 for an extended duration.

Remember, v2's correct name is "maximum power." Karin said A's chakra levels were approaching (meaning they were still rising) Biju tier _after_ he had already ascended to max power. A's shroud was already at peak power before the Biju comment was made. The Biju tier pool of chakra was a seperate body used to sustain v2.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Assume EI will use V2 off the bat in each match.
> 
> location: open field
> distance: 20m
> ...



  Orochimaru gets Shunshin blitzed. No knowledge implies Orochimaru would engage in CQC like he did against KN4 Naruto. Orochimaru won't be defeated in one blow, but constant Oral Rebirth will wear him out eventually.



> 2) jiriaya



 Jiraiya is fairly cautious, so when he does feel V2 Ei's presence, he would likely summon Gamabunta. While Ei can evade Jiraiya's Boss Summons as Deva Path did, I would believe Jiraiya would be able to stall with summons long enough to use Sage Mode. Not that it matters. Jiraiya can't get away from Ei in an open field, so Ei would win.




> 3) tsunade



 I can see this going either way assuming manga knowledge. Ei would win fairly easily if Tsunade can't use Byakugo before Ei builds up his Bijuu level chakra for a max Shunshin.



> 4) MS sasuke- against danzo



 Ei gets butchered. Sharingan allows Sasuke to understand his opponent's power as his Sharingan allows him to see the Volume of his Opponent's Chakra. The moment Ei charges for his V2 Shunshin, Sasuke whips out his MS and Susano'o and easily wins with Enton Kagutsuchi and Susano'o Arrow. It hurts Ei more when the whole field can potentially be covered in flames.

 As a last resort, Sasuke can just obliterate Ei with Kirin, so I'm more inclined to say that Ei gets rekt.



> 5) kakashi



 Kakashi wins. With Sharingan, he can see Ei's Volume of Chakra, so I'd be more inclined to say that Kakashi would be able to use Kamui easily and Kamui Ei's head off considering Kakashi used Kamui much faster than Obito's stake.

 If Ei does manage to Shunshin before Kamui lands, then Kakashi gets butchered as Ei can easily evade his LoS even though Kakashi would initially be able to perceive Ei's Shunshin.


----------



## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> .....



Actually, the only feat this one is behind is when she is cut in half. All the other damages in those links pales in comparison to those stabs.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Look how big the swords are. When Tsunade took those blades off, she almost cut herself off in half. Of course, not as bad as beind bisected, but the damage of the blades, at least, in my opinion, were much greater than anything Orochimaru did to her, and aside from being bisected, those two stabs were greater damage than anything Madara did to her too, though.

About Madara, yes. The scans are here and wich is why i think she can die if she is hit by something strong enough to kill her. For example, a hit that insta-kill her would render Byakugo useless. And heavy damage can still affect somebody.

Madara almost dies:



Madara thinks the damage received by Gai still have him weak:



The damage Madara received there would be less than the damage Tsunade can receive by Ei, because of obvious reasons of durability, life force, more potent regeneration, etc.

In fact, before those panels happened, i've always thought (and said) that a Byakugo user can die outspeeding the jutsu. Wich is what Jinton does, it damages the body much faster than Byakugo can regenerate. But it's not the only jutsu that can put out a Byakugo user ending her life with a single shot, such as Night Gai or Evening Elephant. Or a head cut.

However, i don't get into much debate over if Tsunade can survive a head shot, because for me, if her head is cut down, she outright loses. Not only the enemy is powerful enough to do so, but she won't be able to move her body, as the brains would be no longer attached to her body, therefore she won't be able to summon or do a thing, and the damage would then surpass that bisection.

Moving her body there would require magic (Or a wireless connection via wi-fi (?)


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Knowledge is important.
> 
> *Orochimaru*
> 
> ...



Am confused how does A kill orochimaru

Again people in the instant tsunade head gets hit notning stops her from summoning right when that happens . I am not suggesting her head is on the floor and her body meters away and she forming seals . 

Also note that even kabuto showed how a person can survive a blow that would otherwise kill them by healing even before the attack reaches them. Why can't tsunade do the same here to mitigate the obvious head removal coming her way ? 

It seems obvious once she sees Ei volume of chakra she forms the one seal to summon . The byakuyo healing kicks in as her head is being removed. She summons 
Katsuyu reattaches her head . I find it odd for Ei to chase a head when he got no reason to believe she can survive it . 

However it's foolish to believe she can survive bisection which cuts her spine in half but dies if she looses a head . 

Orochimaru a lesser healer survives be heading no issues 

@naruto X28 why can't oro just use 8 headed snake everyone seems to be dismissing it


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Am confused how does A kill orochimaru
> 
> @naruto X28 why can't oro just use 8 headed snake everyone seems to be dismissing it



 Because it's out-of-character. Orochimaru used it because he was in a desirable situation where Itachi and Sasuke were both severely weakened and was rather hasty as he was going to steal either one of the Uchiha's body for the Sharingan.

 Here, however, Orochimaru has no knowledge and considering he engaged KN4 Naruto in CQC, I'm doubtful of it. I'm also rather doubtful if he'd be able to use his Hydra Technique before Ei Shunshin blitzes.


----------



## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because it's out-of-character. Orochimaru used it because he was in a desirable situation where Itachi and Sasuke were both severely weakened and was rather hasty as he was going to steal either one of the Uchiha's body for the Sharingan.
> 
> Here, however, Orochimaru has no knowledge and considering he engaged KN4 Naruto in CQC, I'm doubtful of it. I'm also rather doubtful if he'd be able to use his Hydra Technique before Ei Shunshin blitzes.



Ei will shunshin blitz never said he wouldn't 
Now when Ei hits oro his body will fall to the ground correct ?

Oro uses oral rebirth at that point . Hides underground and comes up with 8 headed snake 

So u think its in character for oro to keep using oro rebirth when he has a technique that allows him to be hit 8 times before needing to regen 

Sorry naruto that's dumb

He was playing with Kn4. Do you see him playing with a guy he can hardly react to ? Really ?? 

Also note oro survives bisceion and reattaches himself . No oral rebirth there . 

I think people just immediately think any damage and he needs to use said technique . Well Ei goes either with lariat blowing his chest open. If so he could use rebirth .
If ripped in half he re stitches himself 

Itachi had also seen Yamata before . It's oro strongest snake technique . It's not like it got some restriction on it


----------



## Veracity (May 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Actually, the only feat this one is behind is when she is cut in half. All the other damages in those links pales in comparison to those stabs.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



The feat with Oro is actually pretty close considering she got stabbed multiple times by a diamond cutting sword:
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
And was still able to leap from the ground with high speeds while Rusty and without regeneration active.

But I do agree the others werent as bad, but being split in half for hours and in the terrible condition she already was in, pretty much seals the deal regarding her surviving decapitation in my mind.

The damage Madara actually received by gai is something that Tsuande could heal without much problems. She healed the other 5 kage and could heal herself after not even having enough chakra to activate Byakago. Prime Tsaunde with Byakago activated heals those injuries easily. Hashirama's regeneration and juubi regeneration seems to work differently . As Madara's regeneration didn't activate instantly like Byakago .

And i agree that Jinton would kill her if it encompassed her entire body . Same with EE and Night Gai considering the physical pressure would turn her into skin and juice, where not a single one of her organs would be functional, but a head shot ? No.

 I don't understand how her head being separated from her neck would negate Byakago? Which would probably just regenerate a new one real quick. Or we already have other feats of Tsuandes that are absolutely super-ninja. An area of damage the size of a bullet applied to the spinal cord can render someone's entire Torso useless for the extent of their lives. Tsuande was smashing sussano clones Down with her spinal cord erased from chakra swords. I wouldn't say a headshot would kill her at all, although she wouldn't be necessarily mobile at all.


----------



## Bonly (May 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because it's out-of-character. Orochimaru used it because he was in a desirable situation where Itachi and Sasuke were both severely weakened and was rather hasty as he was going to steal either one of the Uchiha's body for the Sharingan.



That doesn't mean it's OOC for Orochi to use it. The only time Orochi has summoned Manda on panel was when he saw Tsunade start to use her summoning jutsu, so does this mean that it's OOC for Orochi to summon Manda? Of course not because we know he's done it a bit off panel with the other Sannin. 

When Orochi used Yamata in Chapter 392 Itachi said "I know this feeling... Orochi's Hydra jutsu". That means Orochi had used said jutsu around Itachi before hand in the past. Now during that time in the past was Sasuke infront of Orochi tired? No. During that time in the past was Itachi blind, damn near out of chakra and about to die? No. Yet without those two things happening he still used Yamata in the past. If Orochi was ever pressured into using it, chances are he's gonna use it though he wouldn't need to use it to beat A as his true form can get the job done.



> Here, however, Orochimaru has no knowledge and considering he engaged KN4 Naruto in CQC, I'm doubtful of it. I'm also rather doubtful if he'd be able to use his Hydra Technique before Ei Shunshin blitzes.



OP didn't list knowledge which doesn't mean Orochi has no knowledge outright. When Orochi took his chakra back from Kabuto he also gained Kabuto's knowledge and as we know Kabuto could see what his Edo's saw which mean Orochi would know about A's speed(since Kabuto saw it via Edo Muu) though chances are Orochi had some knowledge on him anyway.


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> The feat with Oro is actually pretty close considering she got stabbed multiple times by a diamond cutting sword:
> he also gained Kabuto's knowledge
> he also gained Kabuto's knowledge
> he also gained Kabuto's knowledge
> ...



But most of the other attacks were simple slashes, as much as i recall (Oro's). The other blades covered her entire mid-section completely, and were two from side to side. But i think it's just a matter of perspective. I don't know, i see decapitation as being worse. In ancient times, with the ancient torture machines, there was one where the victim was being cut a saw, those things the carpenters uses to cut table woods (forgive my english), and the death was very slow and painful.

Contrary to what a decapitation is.



> The damage Madara actually received by gai is something that Tsuande could heal without much problems. She healed the other 5 kage and could heal herself after not even having enough chakra to activate Byakago. Prime Tsaunde with Byakago activated heals those injuries easily. Hashirama's regeneration and juubi regeneration seems to work differently . As Madara's regeneration didn't activate instantly like Byakago .




It depends on how powerful the attack is, if it's Night Gai, she would die. Especially when a Juubi Jin almost died from it. Madara's regeneration activated right away, actually. And it should be superior because Juubi.

I always use this example when it comes to Byakugo. It's like a pokemon game. Byakugo heals injuries, but let's say Tsunade has 100 hp, if she is hit with an attack that deals 110 hp in one blow, she will die. Because the attack will kill her before Byakugo begins to heal her body, but to no avail as it cannot heal a soul.



> And i agree that Jinton would kill her if it encompassed her entire body . Same with EE and Night Gai considering the physical pressure would turn her into skin and juice, where not a single one of her organs would be functional, but a head shot ? No.
> 
> I don't understand how her head being separated from her neck would negate Byakago? Which would probably just regenerate a new one real quick. Or we already have other feats of Tsuandes that are absolutely super-ninja. An area of damage the size of a bullet applied to the spinal cord can render someone's entire Torso useless for the extent of their lives. Tsuande was smashing sussano clones Down with her spinal cord erased from chakra swords. I wouldn't say a headshot would kill her at all, although she wouldn't be necessarily mobile at all.



It won't negate Byakugo on the head, but it will negate it on the body. The argument was of Tsunade getting her head cut and her grabbing the head or summoning Katsuyu for assistance when it's impossible. The brain controls all chakra and controls the body, it's the command center. If her head is separated from her body, said body won't be a part of her head aymore for obvious reasons.

Therefore, if her body is not connected to her brain, how can the brain send signals and move the body?

To put an example. It's like saying Tsunade can cut an arm and move said arm like a projectile. Like moving it via remote control. Therefore, losing her head, even if she doesn't die, is like losing either way. It's not the head that's going to be regenerated, it's her entire body, as the head is the command center, it's the brain.

And it would surely take some time. When Madara stabbed her for the first time, Tsunade took off the blade, attacked Madara, he blocked, the kages noticed, he used Magatama and sent her flying away, she got up and the wound was still healing.

Now imagine an entire body with 45km of boobs. The Shinobi that was powerful enough to cut her head off would just finish the job right away or just cut her head again before long.


----------



## Veracity (May 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But most of the other attacks were simple slashes, as much as i recall (Oro's). The other blades covered her entire mid-section completely, and were two from side to side. But i think it's just a matter of perspective. I don't know, i see decapitation as being worse. In ancient times, with the ancient torture machines, there was one where the victim was being cut a saw, those things the carpenters uses to cut table woods (forgive my english), and the death was very slow and painful.
> 
> Contrary to what a decapitation is.
> 
> ...



Those slashes were going deep into Tsuandes flesh and actually cutting open organs. After every she was taking, she was moving from ground postition to block another diamond stinging slash with precision and speed. Then you have to add in the fact that her regeneration isn't wasnt even active on top of the fact that tsuande was rusty at the moment. She was physically fatigued even after her performance, which was significantly lesser than what she displayed against Madara. I think that's enough to assume that healthy War Arc Tsunade with Byakago activated, shouldn't fall from slightly worse injuries, thus making that feat a low end feat for her.... Or at the very least she fell down from chakra and physical fatigue. I do feel like decapitation is worse than those two, but I feel like being split in half is just as bad and I've ready reasoned why Prime Byakugo Tsunade should survive that just fine.

I've already admitted that attacks that instantly obliterate her body will actually kill her.. So yeah lol. 

That was actually never my argument; my argument was that Tsuande can survive decapitation, and she can... The reason for Byakago itself is because it heals injuries instantly without the user needing to be cautious of such. Being decapitated wouldn't kill her as she doesn't have to be conscious for Byakago to heal her injuries. All she needs is chakra to heal her injuries.

And really ? That entire scene either Madara happened in a smaller time frame than when Madara healed after night gai. Especially considering a direct Magmata prolly would have re opened the wound. 

 In the circumstance that she is decapitated, I do believe she won't be able to just walk over and pick up her head, but rather she would grow an entirely new head, and depending on the situation, it could lead to her winning the match. If Hebi Sasuke or Kakashi get lucky enough to behead her, after KATSUYU is summoned, they won't have the ability to just walk over and keep beheading her basically.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

@like boss she won't be regrowing a new head 
It's also much quicker to reattach the old one which is far more likely 

But Yh I don't see why she would die from loosing a head . Even kakuzu won't die from such


----------



## Ghost (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> But Yh I don't see why she would die from loosing a head . Even kakuzu won't die from such



When did Kakuzu get his head ripped off? And Tsunade and Kakuzu's bodies are way different. Tsunade has a normal human body.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

So will kakuzu die from loosin a head ?
Cuz even after his heart was crushed he got back up

Kishi didn't emphasize him needing to die 5 times if all it took was to remove his head 

Seriously !

Kakuzu is a pseudo immortal like tsunade . Hence my bringing him up 

Kakuzu like tsunade have been mentioned as people immortal in battle . I'll stick with kishi implications vs ur empty trolling


----------



## Ghost (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So will kakuzu die from loosin a head ?


I'd imagine so. At least if it gets destroyed.


> Cuz even after his heart was crushed he got back up


He had multiple hearts?


> Kishi didn't emphasize him needing to die 5 times if all it took was to remove his head


Kakuzu still has a brain and if it gets destroyed he should die. Mere decapitation might not be enough since Kakuzu could possibly attach it back quickly with his strings.  



> Kakuzu is a pseudo immortal like tsunade . Hence my bringing him up


The abilities that make those two "immortal" are completely different . There is no comparison. 


> Kakuzu like tsunade have been mentioned as people immortal in battle


Well, neither of them are. 


> . I'll stick with kishi implications vs ur empty trolling



Are you fucking kidding me? Every time someone asks you to prove a point or back up a claim you reply with "ur trolling". Do you even realize how obnoxious that is? 

Nothing in the manga supports the claim that Tsunade would survive from decapitation.


----------



## LostSelf (May 3, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Those slashes were going deep into Tsuandes flesh and actually cutting open organs. After every she was taking, she was moving from ground postition to block another diamond stinging slash with precision and speed. Then you have to add in the fact that her regeneration isn't wasnt even active on top of the fact that tsuande was rusty at the moment. She was physically fatigued even after her performance, which was significantly lesser than what she displayed against Madara. I think that's enough to assume that healthy War Arc Tsunade with Byakago activated, shouldn't fall from slightly worse injuries, thus making that feat a low end feat for her.... Or at the very least she fell down from chakra and physical fatigue. I do feel like decapitation is worse than those two, but I feel like being split in half is just as bad and I've ready reasoned why Prime Byakugo Tsunade should survive that just fine.



We'll have to agree to disagree. Not because i think your reasoning is bad, i think it's very good and valid. It's just that i see the other one worse, because i feel that being stabbed and slashed might not be worse than being almost chopped in half. But like i said, it's not because i think your reasoning is bad at all, i took all the points you made and find it very reasonable.

The time frame of Madara sending her flying away with Magatama is not short, it's not large either, but it was the perfect one to show us how she heals and how much time it takes. The time frame with Juudara was short, yes. But my point was that even blunt force attacks strong enough can kill a regenerating user without destroying their body, just causing enough damage and pain for the user to handle and kill them in one blow. 

The other parts (Deleting some of the quote to make it more confortable to see as you're in a phone probably), i will talk taking in mind that she doesn't die by decapitation.

If she is beheaded, it's not the body that will regrow a new head. It's the head that will need to regrow a new body, because the brain is what sends the chakra to the body, as it was explained when Kakashi told Sakura how gates works:



(Somebody can correct me if that part is wrong).

However, considering the brain and head are the main part of the body, the one that controls everything, it is going to start to create a new body, while the other body will be there, probably without the seal on it.

It's that, or both would regenerate and create two Tsunades. But i am more inclined with the first one. Either way, the body won't have privilege over the brain.

About Katsuyu, it depends on the circunstances. If Hebi Sasuke beheads her and summons Manda or any other snake to fight the slug, it can. Or if both, Katsuyu and Sasuke rushes towards the head to take it to a safe place, Sasuke would eventually win as he is much faster than Katsuyu, etc. Or if Kakashi manages to cut her head and grab it and go running with it.

In other words, it depends on where Katsuyu and the enemy is and what advantage she could have, because in a fight of speed to fetch the head, she won't win unless she is right side by side with Tsunade.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kakashi doesnt have said ability
> 
> why wont kamui wraping himself work though? when his is quicker than obito's?



Phasing is instantaneous, or near instantaneous, but self Kamui warp isn't. We know for a fact that Obito was able to phase out of Konan's explosions easily but he couldn't self warp in time.




> why does orochimaru loose? what happened to poison being released when 8 headed snake looses its heads?


I didn't know that. I thought only his white snake form is poisonous and he doesn't start in the white snake form here. So it is highly likely that Oro gets hit fatally before he can oral rebirth out of it(he still needs to react so he can use oral rebirth).


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

@grimmjaw reacting or not oro can't get killed by A hitting him 
Considering he got split in half and stitched himself back with a smile on his face 
What is A going to do that's worse than that ?

If oro is pushed to it which he will he uses 8 headed snake and wins . A destroys the snakes and gets poisoned 

@saikyo the 2 smartest ninja in the manga fought kakuzu and said he needs to die 5 times if all it took was destroying his head then they would have come up with that Consisering it's soooo much easier than killing him 5 times 

Also kakuzu died and the hearts were still functional they aren't connected

What kills a person with a lost head is severing the spine 

Now being split in half has the same effect . Tsunade healed 4 people and herself while split in half 

Again I stick with kishi vs ur opinions . Kishi has already told us the limits to her abilities and lost head isn't it 

Try harder


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @grimmjaw reacting or not oro can't get killed by A hitting him
> Considering he got split in half and stitched himself back with a smile on his face
> What is A going to do that's worse than that ?


I'd say decapitation is worse than that and I don't think Oro can survive that. 



> If oro is pushed to it which he will he uses 8 headed snake and wins . A destroys the snakes and gets poisoned


Are we sure that the Hydra is poisonous ? 
But I agree that if Oro pulls that out and if it is poisonous, then A would have to bath in poison to be able ot kill Oro.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

Decapitation . Isn't and oro is immortal again kishi has given us the limits of his ability and loosing a head isn't it . Even if his head is punched off . He oral rebirths out of his abdomen even sasuke could do that . So oro will be just fine . A giant sword through him only made him chuckle oro can't be killed by that very low level of physical damage 

White snake blood  is poisonous . Hydra is a giant 8 headed white snake

A can only exhaust oro and that kill oro Ei has no ability to actually kill orochimaru


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Decapitation . Isn't and oro is immortal again kishi has given us the limits of his ability and loosing a head isn't it . Even if his head is punched off . He oral rebirths out of his abdomen even sasuke could do that . So oro will be just fine . A giant sword through him only made him chuckle oro can't be killed by that very low level of physical damage
> 
> White snake blood  is poisonous . Hydra is a giant 8 headed white snake



There is acutally no evidence that Oro can survive decapitation. Only hidan has shown that ability.

White Snake form and Hydra are 2 seperate forms. But you may be right, I wouldn't rule that out.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

Lol 
_-snip-_ Has oro died from loosing a head ?? 
No he hasnt so that's baseless to say someone who can basically survive sword through his torso , and being split in half or punched in the face by tsunade Will die simply because he looses a head when oral rebirth can be used after the person has been hit . Lol  

We got sasuke using it after being burnt in half . Oro using it against kabuto after being shredded by kabuto . Oro using it to get a new arm long after his arm was ripped . So Yh oral rebirth fixes damage done once it's used . He only need think about it . And he will grow a new body out  casually . Unless u can show me oro forming seals to perform it or show panels explaining if it isn't done before the damage then it won't work . Go on I'll wait 

White snake form is a white snake which he uses to jump bodies . Hydra is a white snake used offensively . Kishi made a general statement white snake = poisonous blood . He never said this form only got poisonous blood

_There's no need for that comment. ~ Cord_​


----------



## Rocky (May 3, 2015)

Assuming manga knowledge:



Icegaze said:


> 1) orochimaru



Orochimaru's going to catch one to the face. Then he'll probably catch a Guillotine Drop or Horizontal Raiton Chop while's he's on the ground. If Orochimaru continues to get up, A continues the beatdown. The Raikage will win a stamina contest. 

If Orochimaru finds time to transform into something the bleeds poison, he could take this home. However, the speed gap between Orochimaru & v2 A is substantial, so I'm iffy on there being an opening for such to occur. 



> 2) jiriaya



^

I mean, Jiraiya isn't defending against A's max speed. Minato could barely get off Hiraishin before A got to him. Granted the distance was shorter there, but Jiraiya doesn't have legendary reflexes, nor does he have a technique that matches Hiraishin's activation speed.

One punch should knock him out, or at the very least severely stun him. Either scenario provides an opening for A to flatten his torso with a drop kick. 



> 3) tsunade



Given his knowledge of Tsunade's regeneration and natural bulk, he cleaves her head in two with a chop. If she can manage to use Byakugo in time (and it can heal such an injury), then she's got a chance.



> 4) MS sasuke



The Mangekyou is Sasuke's only offensive and defensive option against the Raikage, and that isn't good considering how taxing it is. This boils down to whether or not Sasuke can turn to his mind and outsmart A. It's high-difficulty, either way.



> 5) kakashi



Is Kakashi fast enough to Kamui him away? Who wins is dependant upon that answer.

That said, Kakashi can't do anything if A flanks like he did against Sasuke's Mangekyou.


----------



## Icegaze (May 3, 2015)

@rocky oro doesn't need to be nearly as fast as A 
Let's assume he gets hit then guillotine dropped . Oro can use oral rebirth and go underground like sasuke did and come up with hydra I don't see why not 

At the starting distance I don't see why jiriaya can't use his hair to protect himself which will prevent death . It's said to be as hard as steel . Even Sakura super strength couldn't put a dent in iron 

So jiriaya should survive flanked or not . All it takes is 1 seal to protect himself . 

Tsunade well depends on if u believe she automatically dies once she looses her head 

sasuke defends no issues then wins 

Kakashi could get flanked I had not considered that


----------



## Rocky (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @rocky oro doesn't need to be nearly as fast as A
> Let's assume he gets hit then guillotine dropped . Oro can use oral rebirth and go underground like sasuke did and come up with hydra I don't see why not



Itachi couldn't see Sasuke feint Amaterasu. The flames would have obscured most of Itachi's vision, and Itachi was basically at tha point.

Oral Rebirth takes time, as Orochimaru has to spit out the body. I hear A has pretty good reflexes, so he should be capable of running over there to stop the new body from going anywhere.

The only way Orochimaru escapes underground is if A stands there and lets hiim.



> It's said to be as hard as steel . Even Sakura super strength couldn't put a dent in iron



Iron Sand ≠ Hari Jizo. The hair has limited durability feats, but we know A's chops pack serious power. I don't know how the two would interact, but I give A the benefit of the doubt.

This is irrelevant though, because:



> So jiriaya should survive flanked or not . All it takes is 1 seal to protect himself





Did Minato have time for seals? 

I noted in my post that the distance was greater here than it was there, but Jiraiya isn't renowned for his reflexes, nor can his hair grow to shield him at instantaneous speeds.




> sasuke defends no issues then wins



Sasuke can defend without issue, but he can only keep Susano'o active for about ten minutes, and he can't hit v2 A without tricking him.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol
> Has oro died from loosing a head ??


When was Oro decapitated, clown ? 



> No he hasnt so that's baseless to say someone who can basically survive sword through his torso , and being split in half or punched in the face by tsunade Will die simply because he looses a head when oral rebirth can be used after the person has been hit . Lol


That makes no sense, actually.



> We got sasuke using it after being burnt in half . Oro using it against kabuto after being shredded by kabuto . Oro using it to get a new arm long after his arm was ripped . So Yh oral rebirth fixes damage done once it's used . He only need think about it . And he will grow a new body out  casually . Unless u can show me oro forming seals to perform it or show panels explaining if it isn't done before the damage then it won't work . Go on I'll wait


Why do you think Orochimaru thought he'd die if he was hit by a bijuu dama then ? 
I guess there are certain conditions where he can or can't use Oral rebirth.
And besides, Oral Rebirth is a Kawarimi, so he needs to activate the technique before the damage is done. Which means he needs to react before he is damaged. In A's case, he just may not be able to.



> White snake form is a white snake which he uses to jump bodies . Hydra is a white snake used offensively . Kishi made a general statement white snake = poisonous blood . He never said this form only got poisonous blood



Do you have any manga evicence ? I really don't remember.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 4, 2015)

Orochimaru wins with white snake neurotoxins.

Tsunade wins with sticky slug floor.

Sasuke wins with Enton-coated Susano'o if he uses a high enough stage at the beginning.

Jiraiya and Kakashi are in more trouble here, though.




LostSelf said:


> Why i say didn't collapse from fatigue was because after that time in the floor, she was able to stand up by herself and still super charge Onoki's Jinton to the point of making it incredibly huge.



Tsunade's entire fight with Kabuto took place _after_ she was already tiring out out _(1)_.

If the cause was the amount of damage itself then she should have collapsed _when the damage was dealt_, but instead she ripped the swords out, explained that she wasn't going to hold back in that fight, and _then_ fell to her knee.

Contextually, we were probably supposed to still have in mind and think back to how Ay had just voiced his concern about her wearing out her _stamina_ if she kept fighting like that even though she would live through it all because of her regeneration.



> Juudara almost dies with a blunt force attack from Gai. And after he regenerates and feels unable to dodge Naruto's attack, he attributes that, at first, to the damage not being completely healed from the hit.



I don't think that's an example of regeneration failing.

Madara almost died because Gai _almost_ hit him hard enough to kill him instantaneously.

Compare Gai's hit on Ten Tails Jinchūriki Madara _(2)_ to Tsunade's hit on Edo Tensei Madara _(3)_; you'll notice that Tsunade blasted a bigger hole in him, and in that instance Madara had already "died" in that same moment. Madara meant that Gai _just barely_ failed to dish out _that_ extreme of an injury, which would have prevented him from even having the opportunity to regenerate because he would be dead already.

With Naruto's attack Madara questioned whether or not it was because it hadn't healed _yet_. He didn't imply that his regeneration just plain couldn't fix it.


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@funny Grimm how did Oro replace his arm with oral rebirth then ? 
Cuz his arm was ripped long before he used the technique 

@rocky its fan fic this your oral rebirth takes time claim . If oro gets knocked to the ground he ripd through himself and hides. A cant chase what he can't detect . Or Oro spits himself when A is coming with the drop kick 
If gaara sand could intercept I don't see why oro cNt open his mouth and spit himself out 

As for jiriaya read about his hair please . A cant punch through that


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @funny Grimm how did Oro replace his arm with oral rebirth then ?
> Cuz his arm was ripped long before he used the technique



Kawarimi is cast before the damage is done, and released after it.

Orochimaru probably used it just as he was about to get hit, and released afterwards. Thats how Kawarimi works.

Unless you think Kakashi "healed" those wounds after he was ripped in to pieces : (3)
(3)


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

So why can't he cast oral rebirth the second he sees Ei 
Not like it requires seals or its difficult to use . Kabuto was using it mid run . Oro shouldn't have an issue 

Also bijuudama >>>>>>>>>> anything EI could ever do 

So Oro saying he could die by sometjing that could vaporize him not the same as A physical hits

Sasuke was able to use it before amaterasu hit . So if it's it has to be cast first it's not only cast quickly it's cast in such a manner that even itachi can't see through it 

A stands no chance of seeing through it 

@rocky Minato doesn't use hand seals though  

Also he wasn't surprised in the slightest he could easily have timed his jump

What u would be implying is if A was closer he would have hit Minato 

Yet despite their fighting many times A got no where . Clearly he couldn't always have started at the same
Distance 

note EMS madara blocked A V2 punch with just his arms . I don't see why jiriaya steel like hair would be run through when madara arms weren't 

A speed is horribly overexaggerated 

If anyone thinks all he has to be is at short distance to effortlessly beat people at this level . 

Considering most naruto battles start at an even shorter distance . Hilarious I tell u 
Hilarious


----------



## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

> @rocky Minato doesn't use hand seals though


He does. U_U


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@hussain 
True 
He didn't need to there though 

I don't get the A hype though most battles start at close range yet A is not considered some shinobi God 

Clearly he can be countered . In fact obito thought sasuke full use of MS might be enough to hold the kages hostage 

Being the fastest isn't slightly equal to being the strongest


----------



## Trojan (May 4, 2015)

A's attack won't be enough to kill Jiraiya, that's obviously ridiculous. Even Jugo, who's physically weaker, and his SM is also inferior to Jiraiya's took several hits, and still survived. 

Also, Minato was able to react to V2 A physically and to place the Kunai in top of him and counter attack him, that's why A was close to him. However, when A attacked him again, even though Minato was standing still and not moving, the distance between them was a bit greater than the first time as you can see here
(3)

Granted Jiraiya is not as fast as him, but just to show the differences in their battles. 

As for power Vs speed. From my perspective, I have always valued speed over power. It's meaningless if you have the power, but you can't hit your opponent. It's more like this for example
[YOUTUBE]Q_GHVFeNduc[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]T9HTsxiFsaE[/YOUTUBE]

That's how I generally view things when it comes to speed Vs pure power.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So why can't he cast oral rebirth the second he sees Ei


Characters tend to use kawarimi or other defensive jutsu when they are in immediate danger, not just as soon as they see their opponent.



> Not like it requires seals or its difficult to use . Kabuto was using it mid run . Oro shouldn't have an issue



Well, you could say the same for hirashin, yet Minato almost got his face punched off, and was able to reach a split second before A's fist made contact with his face.

Orochimaru's reaction speed isn't as fast as Minato's, so it is very likely that A can simply blitz Oro before he can even form a coherent thought.



> Also bijuudama >>>>>>>>>> anything EI could ever do


In destructive power ? Yes.
In terms of speed ? No. Someone may be quick enough to react to a bijuudama, but not A's V2 shunshin.



> So Oro saying he could die by sometjing that could vaporize him not the same as A physical hits


I gave that as an example to show that Oral rebirth can't be used to shrug off every attack.




> Sasuke was able to use it before amaterasu hit . So if it's it has to be cast first it's not only cast quickly it's cast in such a manner that even itachi can't see through it


Itachi implied that he saw through it, or he predicted Sasuke'd use it(going by Obito's words). 
And Sasuke was waiting for Itachi to use Amaterasu, and he had oral rebirth ready. Also Amaterasu doesn't instantly take effect, it touches you and starts burning, so you can actually use oral rebirth after Amaterasu hits you and still survive. 



> A stands no chance of seeing through it


If Orochimaru manages to get it off, yes.

All I am arguing is that, Orochimaru may get blitzed before he can find a chance to use it, If A opens the same way he opened against Minato which is what is implied in the op is it not ?


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@hussain lol love the DB reference 

I value speed to but I don't see how madara survives his punch no injures yet jiriaya steel like hair would get a hole punched in 

To me that's just wrong . Or like how Oro can't do anything but take a beating till he runs out of chakra
This is someone with 5 in stamina and enough cjakra to gather senjutsu

When Oro can rip through his own body to get away it's simply ridiculous 

Not like any battle in the manga starts at 100m away . All close range yet A isnt considered a god in any way


@grimm even if Oro takes a hit straigjt from A he won't die from it 
U can't prove he would except the false assumption that his face punched kills him though tsunade did just that and he got up just fine 

So even if one is to assume Oro cant see shit and gets his face slapped in he will get up and keep it moving . Tsunade strength >>>>>>>>>A 

Oro took Her punch to the face . Reacting or not A is incapable of dealing leathal damage to A 

Doing that is well above what A can do as shown by the manga

Also assuming A goes to chop his head off requires knowledge . If A has knowledge so does Oro. If he knows his enemy is fast he uses oral rebirth on seeing A 

Same Way Minato spread kunai 

Try harder

Note : I didn't put the knowledge in my scenario . So I find it odd people automatically assume A got full knowledge and everyone he is stacked up against have none . Tsunade doesn't need God like reflexes when she knows A is coming straight for her neck or face

So in a full knowledge scenario for both what tsunade has is even better than prediction which isn't a 100% guarantee . She knows exactly where A would attack since anytbing else isn't doing much. 

In no knowledge A got no reason to go for her neck .


----------



## FlamingRain (May 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kawarimi is cast before the damage is done, and released after it.
> 
> Orochimaru probably used it just as he was about to get hit, and released afterwards. Thats how Kawarimi works.



"Kawarimi" is probably just a general categorization. Orochimaru's version quite clearly has nothing in common with the standard technique so I don't know why you're trying to bring it up unless it's to avoid a conclusion you know you can't get honestly.

Standard Kawarimi is simply the user replacing their body with something the moment they're about to get hit in order to trick the attacker, which is the reason it has to be used beforehand.

Orochimaru's version is actually a new body emerging out of the actual old one. It's not a mere transformed-substitution where they go grab something, hide inside of it until it gets hit, _then_ jump out like a retard; if that was what happened they'd just use the less costly version that leaves them already out of harm's way because they swap places, like Orochimaru did to Anko in the Forest of Death.

They're doing is just shedding their old skin, so the new body can be produced either before _or_ after the person is already injured so long as there's a body to emerge out of- _that_ is the improvement over the standard Kawarimi no Jutsu where it _has_ to be done beforehand.

Kakashi didn't heal because Kakashi was never _actually hit_. Orochimaru can actually get hit and _then_ use his technique to produce an uninjured body.


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@flamming thanks for clearing that up. i was defeated by that lack of information so i didnt even know how to reply 
except  

@Grimm and turrin i would like to know what level you put A at. considering so far from posts it seems once A is at 20m in he can 1 shot even mid kage levels. 

1) i ask because max RCm is something A can spam casually with bijuu level chakra. not only did he do so against madara but bijuu can spam their strongest jutsu. bijuudama. So why do people believe he cant spam it?

if his level is solely based on he wont do it in IC then sorry thats weak. Cuz IC is entirely dependent on who he is fighting. 

against minato and madara he used it off the bat. 

2) considering the likes of onoki and bee have crossed mountain ranges in 1 shunshin even distances of 40m-100m is inconsequential to A

So i am asking because A who can blitz and apparently  all the poeple in this thread who are basiscally mid kage level is also mid kage level. despite the obvious win apparently once he is in close range. 

which has me confused

*does anyone have any battle in 700 pages of manga that starts above 40m? cuz i havent seen it*

why is A not pre god tier to god tier ?


----------



## LostSelf (May 4, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade's entire fight with Kabuto took place _after_ she was already tiring out out _(1)_.



I do have that in mind. What i was debating was the difference between both damage, Kusanagi slashes and those two huge blades stabs.



> If the cause was the amount of damage itself then she should have collapsed _when the damage was dealt_, but instead she ripped the swords out, explained that she wasn't going to hold back in that fight, and _then_ fell to her knee.
> 
> Contextually, we were probably supposed to still have in mind and think back to how Ay had just voiced his concern about her wearing out her _stamina_ if she kept fighting like that even though she would live through it all because of her regeneration.




Indeed. I had that in mind too, however, she collapsed once she took the blades out, in wich my limited knowledge, if you're stabbed and put said blade out, you damage yourself pretty bad. 



> I don't think that's an example of regeneration failing.
> 
> Madara almost died because Gai _almost_ hit him hard enough to kill him instantaneously.
> 
> Compare Gai's hit on Ten Tails Jinchūriki Madara  to Tsunade's hit on Edo Tensei Madara ; you'll notice that Tsunade blasted a bigger hole in him, and in that instance Madara had already "died" in that same moment. Madara meant that Gai _just barely_ failed to dish out _that_ extreme of an injury, which would have prevented him from even having the opportunity to regenerate because he would be dead already.



I agree. That was part of my point to say that a Byakugo user can die if they are hit hard enough without being necessarily erased, just killing in one shot before he can regenerate, like i said in my other posts here. I think Madara would've died if Gai targeted the head, though. The difference there was that Madara could only survive Gai's because was the Juubi Jinchuriki.



> With Naruto's attack Madara questioned whether or not it was because it hadn't healed _yet_. He didn't imply that his regeneration just plain couldn't fix it.



Yes, i am not affirming it was because of that. However, the only reason he comments on it says that heavy damage can leave you weak and/or the damage is not quickly restored.

I brought that point because i debated the notion that Tsunade would grow a new body or head in a poof, and debating against her summoning Katsuyu without a head, wich i said was impossible even if she survives decapitation, be it because she wouldn't be able to move, but more importantly, because she won't regenerate a new body that fast (Refering to the paragraph of Madara giving a hint that regeneration is not instant. Tsunade showed us beforehand that it wasn't instant, i just felt using a superior regenerator (because Juubi) would've been better.


----------



## Ghost (May 4, 2015)

Ei is high kage level. Why? Because only a small amount of characters can deal with his speed, strength and durability. Realistic starting distance is like 15 meters. Maybe up to 20 meters but fact is people like the rest of the Gokage and Sannin get bodied by Ei.


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

@Lost without knowledge though A has no reason to target her neck. Which means she will be tanking everything else without effort really 

if both have knowledge considering tsunade will know where A is going to attack cant she just put her hand up. I mean its better than prediction knowing 100% for sure your enemy is going for ur neck. 

But yes for sure she cannot in anyway regrow a head. nothing implies she can.

@Saikyou i agree. 
can u tell me someone else who is high kage. list 3 please.  who arent Sandaime raikage, obito and minato 
then explain why those high kage will react to A speed at 20m. Are u implying that unless u can react or prevent death from A that u arent high kage level?

if u are going to say not necessarily then explain 

cuz from ur pov only the likes of minato who isnt in god tier can actually do anything but die against A in a realistic startin distance. 

compared to these guys who u have said more than once stand no chance basically 

15m starting distance is more realistic true. it seems to be the distance kishi uses.


----------



## LostSelf (May 4, 2015)

A is not pre-god tier because those ones can react to him and blast him away, and because A would only be that powerful in close ranges.

However, at this distance, if Ei goes with the intent of chopping somebody in half, the majority here is done. Only Sasuke (and Oro) have chances of surviving. The others doesn't.

However, that is depending how Ei rampages.


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> A is not pre-god tier because those ones can react to him and blast him away, and because A would only be that powerful in close ranges.
> 
> However, at this distance, if Ei goes with the intent of chopping somebody in half, the majority here is done. Only Sasuke (and Oro) have chances of surviving. The others doesn't.
> 
> However, that is depending how Ei rampages.



hashirama who is god tier doesnt have reactoins that put him above kakashi or jiriaya for example 
so why does he survive and the others dont 

A being only dangerous at close ranges isnt even all that accurate considering base bee and onoki who are both slow compared to max shunshin A crossed mountain ranges in 1 shunshin 

so the way people are hyping A here it seems the distance wont even matter all that much considering the distance A covered to get to KCM which was well above 25m 


i would put A at mid kage level because there are people who can survive A fastet punch even in a no knowledge situation. note the people below span from jounin level to high kage level just to show u the range of people who can actually handle A fastest punch. Being able to defeat A after is a different scenario though considering most think once there is distance he is avoidable 

category 1 : puppet users. kankuro and sasori

kankuro disguises as his puppet so A attacking what looks like him wont hurt kankuro
sasori. hiruko would be destroyed first. meaning sasori wont be hit till the next punch 

category 2: ST users. tobirama, minato, obito. They are self explanatory 

cat 3: immortals and healers. kakuzu, kisame, tsunade, oro, gengetsu, Muu(if he splits right after being hit. considering this let him survive rasengan from kcm naruto which is easily>>>A punch )

cat 4: dojutsu users. nagato, itachi, sasuke

i am mostluy making this post cuz turrin said if A could spam max shunshin he would be god tier but considering the people above who can handle even an intial blitz A chances of being any more than mid kage go down the drain. 

*lastly A can spam max shunshin and this doesnt even slightly change his level*


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @flamming thanks for clearing that up. i was defeated by that lack of information so i didnt even know how to reply
> except
> 
> @Grimm and turrin i would like to know what level you put A at. considering so far from posts it seems once A is at 20m in he can 1 shot even mid kage levels.
> ...



I'd say A is bordering high kage. I put him on the same tier with Onoki, but lower than him but can beat Onoki under certain circumstances, and yes, I don't think Sannin can compare to A, Onoki, B and other people in that tier. 

I think he can blitz anyone with lower reactions than MS Sasuke, Minato, Obito etc. So highly perceptive and reflexive characters won't be blitzed by him. And there are very little amount of people who can tank him with natural abilities, so even if they aren't outright blitzed, they may still get killed because they can't tank him.
 The likehood of A actually killing someone around low - mid kage level from the get go is there if the distance isn't too far.



FlamingRain said:


> "Kawarimi" is probably just a general categorization.


Or just the actual definition, which was stated in the manga and the databook. I really see no reason why it would be categorized as Kawarim if it wasn't a kawarimi at least in the princible.



> Orochimaru's version quite clearly has nothing in common with the standard technique so I don't know why you're trying to bring it up unless it's to avoid a conclusion you know you can't get honestly.
> Standard Kawarimi is simply the user replacing their body with something the moment they're about to get hit in order to trick the attacker, which is the reason it has to be used beforehand.



How so ? 
_Getting hit by an attack, making look like the attack succeeded and then coming out unharmed ?_ 
That is exactly what all other Kawarimi do no ? 

Oral rebirth is different than regular kawarimi sure, thats why Itachi called it an "advanced" Kawarimi. But its working princible is/should be that same.
The difference is, it doesn't have to replace the user with an object and/thus it is harder to detect. 



> Orochimaru's version is actually a new body emerging out of the actual old one. It's not a mere transformed-substitution where they go grab something, hide inside of it until it gets hit, _then_ jump out like a retard; if that was what happened they'd just use the less costly version that leaves them already out of harm's way because they swap places, like Orochimaru did to Anko in the Forest of Death.[
> 
> They're doing is just shedding their old skin, so the new body can be produced either before _or_ after the person is already injured so long as there's a body to emerge out of- _that_ is the improvement over the standard Kawarimi no Jutsu where it _has_ to be done beforehand.



But doesn't that beat the purpose of the kawarimi ? I mean, if they can use the kawarimi after the damage is done, which means they aren't negating the damage but rather regenerating from it, then it is not a kawarimi at all.



> Kakashi didn't heal because Kakashi was never _actually hit_. Orochimaru can actually get hit and _then_ use his technique to produce an uninjured body.



I know, I was making a point. All kawarimi make it look like the target of the attack is suffering, that is how you trick your opponent.


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say A is bordering high kage. I put him on the same tier with Onoki, but lower than him but can beat Onoki under certain circumstances, and yes, I don't think Sannin can compare to A, Onoki, B and other people in that tier.



fair enough wont go into it. At least now i get your POV. 



> I think he can blitz anyone with lower reactions than MS Sasuke, Minato, Obito etc. So highly perceptive and reflexive characters won't be blitzed by him. And there are very little amount of people who can tank him with natural abilities, so even if they aren't outright blitzed, they may still get killed because they can't tank him.
> The likehood of A actually killing someone around low - mid kage level from the get go is there if the distance isn't too far.



i knowhe can blitz anyone with lower reactions than MS sasuke. what i was saying is blitzing them doesnt auto mean he is going to kill them or win. considering Muu can split to survive damage. KCM rasengan>>>>>>>>>>>>>A attack So Muu will get up just fine. sadly he wont be able to use jinton. 

I dont see why jiriaya steel hair cant tank his punch if we assume jiriaya can react. considering jiriaya hair>>>madara arms in durability. 



> Or just the actual definition, which was stated in the manga and the databook. I really see no reason why it would be categorized as Kawarim if it wasn't a kawarimi at least in the princible.



sorry please send link to the Db entry for orochimaru replacement technique. 



> How so ?
> _Getting hit by an attack, making look like the attack succeeded and then coming out unharmed ?_
> That is exactly what all other Kawarimi do no ?



kawarimi is a replacement from the get go though. it isnt getting hit by the attack then swapping out. its using a replacement that looks like urself from the offset. which means kakashi was never hit to start with. but what looked like him. which is why its easy to track since the real body is still quite close by. see zaku vs sakura.



> Oral rebirth is different than regular kawarimi sure, thats why Itachi called it an "advanced" Kawarimi. But its working princible is/should be that same.
> The difference is, it doesn't have to replace the user with an object and/thus it is harder to detect.



why would its working principle be the same when its an advanced version. kekkei tota is an advanced elemental jutsu. however got nothing in common with basic elements like fire, wind or earth



> But doesn't that beat the purpose of the kawarimi ? I mean, if they can use the kawarimi after the damage is done, which means they aren't negating the damage but rather regenerating from it, then it is not a kawarimi at all.



yes orochimaru is regenerating from damage. through shedding his skin like a snake. 
manda did the same thing btw. 

also note kabuto has used oral rebirth without being damaged in the slightest. but simply as a means to surprise the enemy.

kawarimi doesnt dispel till hit



> I know, I was making a point. All kawarimi make it look like the target of the attack is suffering, that is how you trick your opponent.



why it wasnt used any longer in part 2. is because even genin like zaku could see through it. and knew when it was a kawarimi

again the comparison is funny considering the kekkei tota vs basic elemental jutsu 

this is no different


----------



## LostSelf (May 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hashirama who is god tier doesnt have reactoins that put him above kakashi or jiriaya for example
> so why does he survive and the others dont



Hashirama kept up with Madara in CqC, the one that could put up a guard when Ei's fist was less than an inch away from his face, in a sneak attack. Therefore, being slower.

His clones were also conering Ei (Madara's), who should've been using V2 to defend himself, and he took SM Naruto off guard.

That's pretty fast, if you ask me. Now add that Madara had Sharingan Precognition, and Hashirama should've been fast enough to deal with that speed. He should react to Ei just fine.

Not to mention that Hashirama could escape the AoE of PS's slashes thrown from multiple angles towards multiple mountains.

Nagato simply has Shinra Tensei, wich activates on thought. Ei attempting to blitz him ends him being sent flying several meters away, without his shroud.

Itachi could react to that as well with Susano'o. Any other in that tier or above can react to the Raikage.


----------



## Icegaze (May 4, 2015)

> LostSelf said:
> 
> 
> > Hashirama kept up with Madara in CqC, the one that could put up a guard when Ei's fist was less than an inch away from his face, in a sneak attack. Therefore, being slower.
> ...


----------



## LostSelf (May 4, 2015)

I never, ever said Madara was faster than Ei, don't know where you are getting that. What i said is that Hashirama is capable enough to react to Ei, because he is in the same league or above than Madara and he could react. Hashirama actually had to be more proficient than Madara in CqC because he kept up with a Madara who has precog. If he was weaker or just equal to Madara, precog would've defeated him.

I saw another post of your directed to me: How Ei goes for the neck without knowledge? You didn't put knowledge, therefore i assumed is Manga Knowledge, something Ei knows better than anybody that, if he is going to fight Tsunade, he is going to need to chop her in half.

And no, i am talking about another instance. Hashirama blocked one, however, Kyuubi gave Susano'o other 8 hands to attack. [1] Hashirama dodged that when the other shockwaves cut the Mokuton hands in an instant and Hashirama could dogde that perfectly.

And what are you trying to prove with Ei's statement? He said that _before he fought Madara._

Mu, well, at this distance, is fucked. If Ei begins in V2, that is. Mu won't be able to get away.

Just a note: I say Ei is hard to counter if he starts in V2 and with a short distance. Not that he is generally in this level. However, he should be close. Even if he is one-dimensional, it's hard to deal with a tank that can cut people in half, can move extremely fast and can, like i said, tank a lot.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 5, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Indeed. I had that in mind too, however, she collapsed once she took the blades out, in wich my limited knowledge, if you're stabbed and put said blade out, you damage yourself pretty bad.



You do damage yourself, but that's not when she collapsed- she only collapsed _after_ she finished explaining what she was doing, which was _after_ the blades were taken out. I'm saying that had the severity of the damage been what was responsible as opposed to what Ay had just brought up, she should have fallen down before she was able to stand there and give that speech.



> I agree. That was part of my point to say that a Byakugo user can die if they are hit hard enough without being necessarily erased, just killing in one shot before he can regenerate, like i said in my other posts here.



It's possible I just missed something in those chapters but I didn't think becoming the Ten Tails Jinchūriki would make one more _resilient_.

Regardless, if you look at what Tsunade has survived, and what both her Senju and Uzumaki family members have survived, I think you'd pretty much have to obliterate most of Tsunade's body to kill her before she could regenerate.

Kushina Uzumaki survived having a Tailed Beast ripped out of her post-childbirth, even though that was supposed to be instant death, and she could still even use her special Chakra chains and a barrier. Tsunade survived being impaled by Madara's giant Susano'o swords and kept attacking, and survived being split in half when low on Chakra only to be worried about the far less grievous injuries of the other Kage instead of her own bifurcation. Tobirama Senju survived Jūbito blasting off half of his torso and half of his head and kept casting Jutsu; he was an Edo Tensei, but we've seen that if injured sufficiently enough Edo Tensei die as they would in life before their regeneration kicks in with Haku, Zabuza, "Madara", etc., so him not dying right then was likely because he was just plain that tough when alive.

It's in Tsunade's blood to survive an injury like that which Madara suffered for a while.



> Yes, i am not affirming it was because of that. However, the only reason he comments on it says that heavy damage can leave you weak and/or the damage is not quickly restored.
> 
> I brought that point because i debated the notion that Tsunade would grow a new body or head in a poof, and debating against her summoning Katsuyu without a head, wich i said was impossible even if she survives decapitation, be it because she wouldn't be able to move, but more importantly, because she won't regenerate a new body that fast (Refering to the paragraph of Madara giving a hint that regeneration is not instant. Tsunade showed us beforehand that it wasn't instant, i just felt using a superior regenerator (because Juubi) would've been better.



He _was_ just guessing, y'know- he realized that Naruto had actually grown stronger instead right after that.

I don't know if being the Ten Tails Jinchūriki entails superior regenerative abilities. The Ten Tails has more juice to regenerate with by a ridiculous margin, sure, but I don't know if that makes it go faster or anything.

Also, I'm pretty sure she would regrow a new head, not a new body.

Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu seems to run like an inducible operon- i.e.- Tsunade opens the seal and the released Chakra induces the regeneration, which only ceases when the Chakra is no longer present (either because it ran out or was refocused elsewhere like back into the seal). It does not require her conscious input to function, and the Chakra surges throughout her entire body, not just from her forehead, which is why the diamond mark disappears/becomes negative space upon activation.

Her head is not what sustains the technique, so cutting it off isn't akin to cutting off the source of the Jutsu. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I really see no reason why it would be categorized as Kawarim if it wasn't a kawarimi at least in the princible.



I'm pretty sure the principle of Kawarama isn't preemptive use, which is the point I'm addressing.



> How so ?
> _Getting hit by an attack, making look like the attack succeeded and then coming out unharmed ?_
> That is exactly what all other Kawarimi do no ?



No.

The entire point of a regular Kawarimi is making it _look like_ you got hit *while not actually getting hit*.

You can't get hit with a regular Kawarimi at all. The point of Orochimaru's is to restore you _if you actually get hit_.



> Oral rebirth is different than regular kawarimi sure, thats why Itachi called it an "advanced" Kawarimi. But its working princible is/should be that same. The difference is, it doesn't have to replace the user with an object and/thus it is harder to detect.



It's mechanics are demonstrably _not_ the same though, and your last sentence is exactly why.

Substituting with a transformed object is the entire reason the typical Kawarimi needs to be used before the person is actually damaged. It does the person no good if they get hurt and then substitute, because the damage will still remain on their body. Orochimaru's doesn't have to replace the user with an object _because_ it is actually _producing an entirely new body_, which is why _it_ can be used even _after_ the person has been dealt damage.



> But doesn't that beat the purpose of the kawarimi ? I mean, if they can use the kawarimi after the damage is done, which means they aren't negating the damage but rather regenerating from it, then it is not a kawarimi at all.



Not necessarily.

It doesn't defeat the purpose if Orochimaru's version is only a Kawarimi insofar as he pops out a new body to be used in the stead of the old injured one and not in the sense that he has something else take the hit for him.

Regenerating from damage _is_ negating damage. The purposes of Orochimaru's technique likely extend beyond those of the typical Kawarimi anyway, since his technique also allows you a greater window of time to act in, is often better for playing possum, etc.


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

Hashirama always gets  overrated with speed/reaction when he had absolutly nothing. Just because
he fought Madara does not make him equal to him in every single thing. Don't know when people will get that. 

The guy couldn't even avoid any of Madara's black rods as Madara placed 6 of them on his back. Not 1, not 2, but SIX. 
His base shunshun was proven to not be any better than Tobirama's or old Hiruzen's.


----------



## LostSelf (May 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> You do damage yourself, but that's not when she collapsed- she only collapsed _after_ she finished explaining what she was doing, which was _after_ the blades were taken out. I'm saying that had the severity of the damage been what was responsible as opposed to what Ay had just brought up, she should have fallen down before she was able to stand there and give that speech.



Wich didn't take much time. And her expression and words were clear pain, she also coughed blood. She damaged herself. All those actions are more believable than Ei's. Even though what he says it's not true, she showed she collapsed from pulling out the blades and probably the damage not being healed yet as well.



> It's possible I just missed something in those chapters but I didn't think becoming the Ten Tails Jinchūriki would make one more _resilient_.
> 
> Regardless, if you look at what Tsunade has survived, and what both her Senju and Uzumaki family members have survived, I think you'd pretty much have to obliterate most of Tsunade's body to kill her before she could regenerate.
> 
> ...




I do agree she has survived a lot. That's not even debatable. However, beign Juubi Jin should make you more durable and/or resilient. Saying otherwise would be saying Tsunade could tank all of Red Gai's hits better or equal to Madara.

He also got hit with godruto Yoton Rasenshuriken and stood up like nothing.



> He _was_ just guessing, y'know- he realized that Naruto had actually grown stronger instead right after that.



I know he guessed. But if this possibility never existed, he wouldn't have guessed. That's what i am implying. 



> I don't know if being the Ten Tails Jinchūriki entails superior regenerative abilities. The Ten Tails has more juice to regenerate with by a ridiculous margin, sure, but I don't know if that makes it go faster or anything.
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure she would regrow a new head, not a new body.



Impossible. For once, the head has it's priorities when it comes to the entire body, she 1: regenerates from the head or 2: regenerates from both sides. making two Tsunades. Byakugo is not an intelligent being to regenerate only one part.

Also, her seal is in her head. Cutting the body from the head should cut the jutsu in the body.

I replied the Madara part above. 

-------------------------------
Hashirama  should be fast because he engaged Madara in CqC once his Budha put Kyuubi to sleep. If he fought someone of Madara's caliber and his Precognition, he should be very fast.

Not Ei's level, for sure. But enough to react to him and at least put up a guard. But even then, that depends on the distance and circunstances.


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

> Hashirama should be fast because he engaged Madara in CqC once his Budha put Kyuubi to sleep. If he fought someone of Madara's caliber and his Precognition, he should be very fast.



His speed range is around 3 out 5. That as far as he gets. Even though what you said is obviously completely baseless. Unless you assume Izuna was also as fast as Tobirama because he was fighting him for example. 

Just like how Hiruzen (3) was fighting Oro in CqC even tho Oro has 4.5 in speed. Unless you think 3 = 4.5 of course.


----------



## LostSelf (May 5, 2015)

We don't know how fast was Izuna. We only know Tobirama needed Hiraishin to defeat him, wich says nothing bad for him as he might've been caught off guard and without knowledge of the jutsu.

You cannot fight somebody in close quarters if you're slower (notably) and your opponent has Sharingan precog. That's a complete beatdown if you consider how the faster Naruto was having his ass kicked by a Sasuke that grained precog.


----------



## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> You cannot fight somebody in close quarters if you're slower (notably) and your opponent has Sharingan precog.



You can if your taijutsu to so advanced that the Sharingan can't read it. 

Though admittedly it's doubtful that that's the case with Hashirama. We don't know how well he handled himself against Madara in close quarters though; most of their fights were off panel, and we saw nothing in the VotE flashback.

Honestly, I doubt Hashirama had some sort of extended taijutsu match with Madara. He should be well aware of the Sharingan's ability to read even the slightest of movements, so why stay up close where Madara has the advantage?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> When has kakashi kamui'd something as fast as V2 ei?
> and even if he can use kamui to escape, how would his clone/himself kill ei?
> he literally has nothing on him.
> 
> we have already seen that chidori barely grazed him.



When he kamui'd the blitzing Naruto clone who was established to be faster than Ei's top speed.  But maybe he wasn't going as fast that time.


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2015)

We know Tobirama is the fastest of his time. 



> You cannot fight somebody in close quarters if you're slower (notably) and your opponent has Sharingan precog



Except I just gave you an example. 
Rasenshuriken

Hiruzen has 3, and Oro 4.5. That's a big different. 

and we know for a fact that Hashirama's speed is nothing better than old Hiruzen.
Rasenshuriken


----------



## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

If Naruto was going that fast, Obito wouldn't have been able to react in time throw a stake at him.

The clone was just jumping. Using Shunshin would have been counter productive.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You can if your taijutsu to so advanced that the Sharingan can't read it.
> 
> Though admittedly it's doubtful that that's the case with Hashirama. We don't know how well he handled himself against Madara in close quarters though; most of their fights were off panel, and we saw nothing in the VotE flashback.
> 
> Honestly, I doubt Hashirama had some sort of extended taijutsu match with Madara. He should be well aware of the Sharingan's ability to read even the slightest of movements, so why stay up close where Madara has the advantage?



We saw them have taijutsu clashes, and Hashirama did have that scroll of swords he'd pull out on Madara.  We also saw him dodge a fan slash or kick or something when they were edo battle warriors.  The retconned God of Shinobi from the Uchiha wrassling not having a style of taijutsu that works well against the sharingan is doubtful.  

I'd say that the regeneration had something to with.  I'd like to say that, and show along with my tell, but the only person with Hashirama's regeneration we never saw take a hit to regenerate from was Hashirama himself.  We can logically deduce Madara saw his rival seriously injured at some points to hold such faith in the ability that he'd wager it against the fury of all 9 bijuu.  The tank and counter style should be good against Uchiha, given Tsunade and so help me Sakura of all people almost landed a hit on super Madara and Super Duper Madara with it, but the regular Senju didn't have access to that, so their clan style must have been special.  Not accounting for individual skill, none of the Senju we've seen shy away from taijutsu, and Tsunade makes taijutsu the crux of her offence.   That base style alone was enough to make her elite even before the development of her regen and even her Strength of 1000, and that fits given that the Uchiha clan rivals were widely considered superior to all but the Senju at every aspect of shinobi life.  So while you'd think the Uchiha hold the edge in taijutsu, historically and in action they seem to have not.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze, EMS Madara is faster than V2 Ei's max Shunshin and Hashirama certainly has reflexes far above Kakashi's.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If Naruto was going that fast, Obito wouldn't have been able to react in time throw a stake at him.
> 
> The clone was just jumping. Using Shunshin would have been counter productive.



Naruto seemed to be moving at the same rate throughout the battle, and trying his hardest to exploit openings made by Kakashi's ninjutsu support and fellow speedster Guy to get around kamui.  At least when trying to capitalize, they should be going full speed ahead.  I disagree with Obito not being able to react to a shunshin blitz precisely because of that. 

I can't remember if the spikes came from his eyeball, but if they did, then they're as fast as kamui, and so long as he can react with kamui, that's fast enough to spike Naruto.

Personally I think Naruto wasn't going full shunshin, but it was enough in that tier of speed that it probably doesn't really matter to Kakashi.


----------



## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto seemed to be moving at the same rate throughout the battle, and trying his hardest to exploit openings made by Kakashi's ninjutsu support and fellow speedster Guy to get around kamui.



Neither Naruto or Gai were moving at max speeds against Obito. Like, Gai was in base. 

This is likely because they knew going that fast would screw up the ability for their teammates to keep up with them and assist in exploiting Obito's tangible window.  



> At least when trying to capitalize, they should be going full speed ahead.  I disagree with Obito not being able to react to a shunshin blitz precisely because of that.



Why on earth would Naruto want to flicker at maximum speed if he's trying to perform in concert with Kakashi? They didn't need to be fast enough to hit Obito in the interval that he was tangible. They threw that out the window as soon as they realized that Kakashi's eye was linked with Obito's. 



> I can't remember if the spikes came from his eyeball, but if they did, then they're as fast as kamui, and so long as he can react with kamui, that's fast enough to spike Naruto.



Intangibility is faster than the travel of objects between dimensions. 



> Personally I think Naruto wasn't going full shunshin, but it was enough in that tier of speed that it probably doesn't really matter to Kakashi.



He was jumping. 

That feat doesn't mean Kakashi can keep A in his visual field. He'd fare no better than MS Sasuke, who actually has two eyes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 5, 2015)

> Why on earth would Naruto want to flicker at maximum speed if he's trying to perform in concert with Kakashi?



When he gets an opening, he should flicker on top that.  With violence.



> Intangibility is faster than the travel of objects between dimensions.



Obito's intangibility is the travel of his personal object between dimensions.



> He was jumping.
> 
> That feat doesn't mean Kakashi can keep A in his visual field. He'd fare no better than MS Sasuke, who actually has two eyes.



No.  The reason I think Kakashi wins isn't related to that though, I was just trying to answer the "What makes anyone think that?" question for the dear deer.

The reason I think Kakashi wins is that Ei always has a little moment before his max speed where he amps up his chakra to bijuu tier and charges his shunshin storm.  It's always been pretty brief, but Kakashi's flip out and make the scary man go away tactic is faster.  Ei's V1 is more than enough to pressure Kakashi, but like Sasuke Kakashi will be able to deal long enough to he'll probably get an opening.  That's if he doesn't copy RnY, which will amp his speed and reflexes to keep Ei in his eyesight.


----------



## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Obito's intangibility is the travel of his personal object between dimensions.



Phasing in and out was much faster than the transfer of matter (whether it be himself, another person, or an object...like a stake) through his eye into boxland. That was the focal point of the Konan fight. 



> The reason I think Kakashi wins is that Ei always has a little moment before his max speed where he amps up his chakra to bijuu tier and charges his shunshin storm.  It's always been pretty brief, but Kakashi's flip out and make the scary man go away tactic is faster.



It's going to have to be faster than Amaterasu in order to produce a different result than Amaterasu did when used on A. And honestly, I'm not so sure it is after finding out that Kakashi and Obito suck things up at the _same exact speed._



> Ei's V1 is more than enough to pressure Kakashi, but like Sasuke Kakashi will be able to deal long enough to he'll probably get an opening.



In a normal fight between the two? I dunno. Looking back at it, it took roughly a minute of fighting before v1 A obliterated the basement floor with Sasuke's back. 

Kakashi's only shot is clone-feinting and using his Uchiha eye as a sniper rifle. However, A could just start zipping around the battlefield looking for Kakashi, meaning Kakashi won't be able to get a good aim. Assuming full knowledge goes both ways and isn't skewed in one direction, that is.



> That's if he doesn't copy RnY, which will amp his speed and reflexes to keep Ei in his eyesight.



He should have about the same proficiency with RCM as Sasuke does with Kage Bunshin.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Icegaze, EMS Madara is faster than V2 Ei's max Shunshin and Hashirama certainly has reflexes far above Kakashi's.




Madara already admitted to being slower than Tobirama who admitted to being slower than Minato 
A is the next in line in speed 
 
Lol love how people don't read the manga 

EMS madara faster than A


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I'm pretty sure the principle of Kawarama isn't preemptive use, which is the point I'm addressing.


It actually is. Kawarimi negates the damage before it is done. So logically it has to be cast before you'r hit, not after. 



> No.
> 
> The entire point of a regular Kawarimi is making it _look like_ you got hit *while not actually getting hit*.
> 
> You can't get hit with a regular Kawarimi at all. The point of Orochimaru's is to restore you _if you actually get hit_.


Thats what I meant. It looks like you get hit, thats what tricks your opponent into believing that he/she got you. I think Oro's Kawarimi works under the same princible. The outer shell is the thing that takes the damage instead of you. Same with regular kawarimi.



> It's mechanics are demonstrably _not_ the same though, and your last sentence is exactly why.
> 
> Substituting with a transformed object is the entire reason the typical Kawarimi needs to be used before the person is actually damaged. It does the person no good if they get hurt and then substitute, because the damage will still remain on their body. Orochimaru's doesn't have to replace the user with an object _because_ it is actually _producing an entirely new body_, which is why _it_ can be used even _after_ the person has been dealt damage.
> 
> ...



I think substitution takes place within the body in Oro's case. Instead of substituting with an object, your body becomes the object, like an outer shell and then you basically can re emerge from inside of it anytime you want. 



> Regenerating from damage _is_ negating damage. The purposes of Orochimaru's technique likely extend beyond those of the typical Kawarimi anyway, since his technique also allows you a greater window of time to act in, is often better for playing possum, etc.



Technically yes, but like I said, that beats the purpose of Kawarimi. If you'r getting hit and hurt, and the jutsu allows you to simply create a brand new body after that, then it has absolutely nothing to do with a Kawarimi. Kawarimi means substitution.

Here is the definition of the word : 





> An ancient ninja art revolving around misdirection and the *split-second timing of a switch between a 'body' and a location, or between two or more bodies*. A technique utilized by ninja in ancient Japan, involving the ninja and anything that can be mistaken for them, (such as a dummy or a mannequin.)


Split second timing and switching are the keywords here.

It can be anything that can be mistaken for them. So the outershell(which isn't them) is creating the deception.

What you'r describing here is basically very high end regeneration, even more so than Tsunade's forehead seal jutsu. Which absolutely has nothing to do with Kawarimi in princible.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When he kamui'd the blitzing Naruto clone who was established to be faster than Ei's top speed.  But maybe he wasn't going as fast that time.


Naruto's clone wasin't using his max shunshin.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Oddly enough I agree with Grimmjaw description of how orochimaru technique works 
Nonetheless unless A goes immediately for the neck decaptiation orochimaru should have more than enough time to replace himself 

Tsunade punch to the jaw didn't kill him . He didn't even need a replacement . He got up just fine 

A cant kill orochimaru bar the unproven and unsubstantiated decaptiation


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Oddly enough I agree with Grimmjaw description of how orochimaru technique works
> Nonetheless unless A goes immediately for the neck decaptiation orochimaru should have more than enough time to replace himself
> 
> Tsunade punch to the jaw didn't kill him . He didn't even need a replacement . He got up just fine
> ...



Actually A's punch is covered with raiton, so it has more piercing properties than Tsunade punch.

Remember when his punch basically drilled through Juugo's CS2 shields and chest ? The same arms he was using to block Zabuza's cleaver ? 

A can basically punch "though" Oro's head, if he opens the way he opens against Minato.
So replace Minato with Oro, and Juugo's cs2 shields with something weaker, and that'll be the result you get.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Actually A's punch is covered with raiton, so it has more piercing properties than Tsunade punch.
> 
> Remember when his punch basically drilled through Juugo's CS2 shields and chest ? The same arms he was using to block Zabuza's cleaver ?
> 
> ...



 A punch got no piercing properties you making shit up . Statements from kishi to that effect please 
It's statef all over the manga. Tsunade punch >>A punch 

Tsunade punch would have 1 shotted jugo. Also A forced his arm through . He didn't drill through it thanks to grimmjaw fandom made up piercing properties 

Nice fanfic sadly manga has tsunade punch >>>A punch 

Forcing his arm through Jugo shield is cute and all but tsunade wouldn't need to force her arm through it . The intial punch would have broken Jugo . That would have been the end of it 

Remember how on impact her punch broke madara Rin cage which is leaps and bounds and more leaps well above Jugo lol meat shield 

Well she hits Jugo that shield vanishes . It's simply very odd to assume any punch of A would exceed
Tsunades when the manga has clearly stated otherwise 

A chop didn't do shit to rib cage . Tsunade punch broke it not completely but still broke it 

 Grimm

Your desperation to make
Points is becoming SaD


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> A punch got no piercing properties you making shit up . Statements from kishi to that effect please
> It's statef all over the manga. Tsunade punch >>A punch
> 
> Tsunade punch would have 1 shotted jugo. Also A forced his arm through . He didn't drill through it thanks to grimmjaw fandom made up piercing properties
> ...



If his punch have no piercing properties, then how did it go through a couple of layers of flesh leaving a clean hole? 

A has piercing and slashing damage, it is better suited against dealing damage to flesh.

Orochimaru is like rubber, so he is more resillient against blunt trauma, which is what Tsunade's punches do.

For example, Sasuke's raiton pierced through Oro like butter, yet Tsunade's punch didn't do shit.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If his punch have no piercing properties, then how did it go through a couple of layers of flesh leaving a clean hole?
> 
> A has piercing and slashing damage, it is better suited against dealing damage to flesh.
> 
> ...



by being physically stronger and forcing his way through it. it wouldnt need piercing properties. a wreckign ball got no piercing properties. how does it punch holes in buildings? go on tell me 

A slashing damage still did much less than tsunade punch. the excuse that its better at dealing against flesh is fan made up. do read what kishi the author says about tsunade super strength 

then read up what he says about A techniques. go on ill wait. 

orochimaru head isnt anything like rubber. nice fan fic though 

she punched his jaw which showed no elasticity and he flew. then got up. 

A punches him, he flies less far and gets up. then asks A why he is wasting his time with such meager techniques. 

btw tsunade without any piercing properities would easily force her arm through jugo lol meat shield.

do feel free to show me though where it says A raiton punches got piercing properities. 

guess next you would say they have numbing properties due to raiton.despite him grabbing people and them not being shocked. 

i love your fan fic though. not bad


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> by being physically stronger and forcing his way through it. it wouldnt need piercing properties. a wreckign ball got no piercing properties. how does it punch holes in buildings? go on tell me


Flesh is elastic. You need piercing properties to punch a hole through, unlike concrete which can't bend but breaks.



> A slashing damage still did much less than tsunade punch. the excuse that its better at dealing against flesh is fan made up. do read what kishi the author says about tsunade super strength


It is actually called common sense. It has nothing to do with the term fan.

A gentle poke with a knife on your belly will pierce your skin. If I gently poke you with a blunt object like hammer, it isn't even going to hurt you.




> [then read up what he says about A techniques. go on ill wait.
> 
> orochimaru head isnt anything like rubber. nice fan fic though
> 
> ...



Did you even read my post ? 

How do you explain Sasuke's raiton lance piercing Orochimaru easily, but Tsunade's punch not doing anyhing ? 

Its obvious that flesh or elastic things can endure blunt trauma better than they can endure slashing or piercing damage.

So in that sense, A has a better shot @ damaging Orochimaru than Tsunade does because of the damage type he has is different than hers.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Flesh is elastic. You need piercing properties to punch a hole through, unlike concrete which can't bend but breaks.



so this elastic flesh why doesnt it do much when hit by a train. tell me 



> It is actually called common sense. It has nothing to do with the term fan.



ok fan 



> A gentle poke with a knife on your belly will pierce your skin. If I gently poke you with a blunt object like hammer, it isn't even going to hurt you.



a knife =/= A punch though




> Did you even read my post ?



i did it was full of fail 



> How do you explain Sasuke's raiton lance piercing Orochimaru easily, but Tsunade's punch not doing anyhing ?



raiton lance is just that a raiton lance. an extension of chidori a piercing attack. 
this isnt the same as A using raiton cloak. i dont knwo why u are in vain attempting to link the 2. they arent the same technique. 

All they have in common is they are using the same element. 

no different from daikodan being eniterly different from water dragon or any other water jutsu



> Its obvious that flesh or elastic things can endure blunt trauma better than they can endure slashing or piercing damage.



shame a train and a knife both kill u. sadly the train can hit u anywhere and breaks all of u. the knife must target a vital organ 



> So in that sense, A has a better shot @ damaging Orochimaru than Tsunade does because of the damage type he has is different than hers.


[/QUOTE]

sadly its the same type of damage just less. since u know A uses physical attacks. taijutsu 

his attacks dont pierce u in the slighest. read the databook and the manga again. this time slowly. A attacks dont pierce anyone. Why didnt it run through Muu when he hit Muu?

why didnt it even scratch or run through bee partial transformed hand? even mere shirkuen with katon on them actually did more damage than A punch against bee arm. 

why not cut sasuke legs once he grabbed sasuke before raiga bomb. he was touchign sasuke with this apparent piercing property was he not. 

or did he deactivate it just that time because grimmjaw screamed deactivate it!

List of A techniques
lariat- zero piercing factor. he hits you with force which can blow out your chest
horizontal drop- no piercing factor
laiga bomb- no piercing factor
karate chop-no piercing factor
guillotine drop- no piercing factor

So really am confused how you came up with it. Now can he tailor his raiton to cut things like his arm sure he can. but to assume every attack A uses has some piercing factor is a really bad joke

with knowledge he would go for the neck shot. same way if orochimaru has knowledge he will prep his oral rebirth. it uses no seals and is fast enough for sasuke to use before amaterasu hits. a much better user will have no issues using it. 

no knowledge A doesnt go for the head shot or karate chop. not that it would make a difference but thought u should know


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so this elastic flesh why doesnt it do much when hit by a train. tell me


Because it has nothing to do with this thread.



> ok fan


aww so cute.



> a knife =/= A punch though


I was trying to simplfy things so you could be able to comprehend it. But yeah, I guess there is no way you can 



> i did it was full of fail


You must have gotten used to it by know, assuming  you read anything you type. But then maybe you don't.




> raiton lance is just that a raiton lance. an extension of chidori a piercing attack.
> this isnt the same as A using raiton cloak. i dont knwo why u are in vain attempting to link the 2. they arent the same technique.


I am not saying they are. I am just saying that different types of damages have different type of effects.


> All they have in common is they are using the same element.
> 
> no different from daikodan being eniterly different from water dragon or any other water jutsu


Which one do you think is stronger ?
Sasuke's raiton lance or Tsunade's punch ?



> shame a train and a knife both kill u. sadly the train can hit u anywhere and breaks all of u. the knife must target a vital organ


Completely irrelevant.




> sadly its the same type of damage just less. since u know A uses physical attacks. taijutsu


How can the dude chop off his own arm then ?



> his attacks dont pierce u in the slighest. read the databook and the manga again. this time slowly. A attacks dont pierce anyone. Why didnt it run through Muu when he hit Muu?


I don't know, why did he punch a hole through Juugo ? Or how he was able to chop down Hachibee's horn ? 



> why didnt it even scratch or run through bee partial transformed hand? even mere shirkuen with katon on them actually did more damage than A punch against bee arm.


Maybe because Itachi's flame coated shuriken is more piercing than A's punch.



> why not cut sasuke legs once he grabbed sasuke before raiga bomb. he was touchign sasuke with this apparent piercing property was he not.


Who said the raiton armor itself is like a razor ? You'r starting to sound delusional again.



> or did he deactivate it just that time because grimmjaw screamed deactivate it!


Or maybe you forgot to take your medication today ? 




> List of A techniques
> lariat- zero piercing factor. he hits you with force which can blow out your chest


I never said lariat is piercing.


> horizontal drop- no piercing factor
> laiga bomb- no piercing factor


And ? 



> karate chop-no piercing factor


Karatechop is slashing mostly, but I am assume if it is used like a thrust, it can pierce as well.




> So really am confused how you came up with it. Now can he tailor his raiton to cut things like his arm sure he can. but to assume every attack A uses has some piercing factor is a really bad joke


I never said every attack can pierce, I am sure that you either don't or can't read posts here.



> with knowledge he would go for the neck shot. same way if orochimaru has knowledge he will prep his oral rebirth. it uses no seals and is fast enough for sasuke to use before amaterasu hits. a much better user will have no issues using it.


Orochimaru will "attempt" to prepare oral rebirth, if he is fast enough.
But he is not, so If A uses V2 from the get go, he either punches Oro's face off or decapitates him, which both result in Oro's death.


> no knowledge A doesnt go for the head shot or karate chop. not that it would make a difference but thought u should know


Wrong again.

He went for a headshot against Minato, and he aimed @ Sasuke's neckwith the karatechop and if it wasn't for susano'o, Sasuke'd lose his head.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because it has nothing to do with this thread.
> 
> 
> aww so cute.



thanks cutie. 

i accept your concession 



> I was trying to simplfy things so you could be able to comprehend it. But yeah, I guess there is no way you can



simplying what is wrong dont make it right. try understand that



> You must have gotten used to it by know, assuming  you read anything you type. But then maybe you don't.



lol butthurt



> I am not saying they are. I am just saying that different types of damages have different type of effects.



no shit sherlock 



> Which one do you think is stronger ?
> Sasuke's raiton lance or Tsunade's punch ?



different types of damage. of which A punch is simply a weaker version of tsunades punch



> Completely irrelevant.



. butthurt



> How can the dude chop off his own arm then ?



by makign his raiton sharp which got noting to do with him using raiton cloak when throwing a punch



> I don't know, why did he punch a hole through Juugo ? Or how he was able to chop down Hachibee's horn ?



physical strength. feel free to show where it says A used raiton to cut through them 

tsunade punched off susanoo sword and it broke just as easily as hachibi horn



> Maybe because Itachi's flame coated shuriken is more piercing than A's punch.



i know cuz A punch isnt piercing or Muu would have been pierced



> Who said the raiton armor itself is like a razor ? You'r starting to sound delusional again.



you did smart ass. who dont like being wrong despite the frequnecy of said occurence 



> Or maybe you forgot to take your medication today ?



ok butthurt



> I never said lariat is piercing.



you claimed his punch is. so why isnt lariat?



> And ?
> 
> 
> Karatechop is slashing mostly, but I am assume if it is used like a thrust, it can pierce as well.



feel free to show it can pierce cuz its been used on sasuke and the susnaoo broke through physical strength not slashing



> I never said every attack can pierce, I am sure that you either don't or can't read posts here.



you claimed his punch with zero piercing feats can pierce



> Orochimaru will "attempt" to prepare oral rebirth, if he is fast enough.
> But he is not, so If A uses V2 from the get go, he either punches Oro's face off or decapitates him, which both result in Oro's death.



A punch once more<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Tsunade punch. orochimaru kept his head

since A punch doesnt have this magical piercing effect orochimaru gets up 
Wrong again.



> He went for a headshot against Minato, and he aimed @ Sasuke's neckwith the karatechop and if it wasn't for susano'o, Sasuke'd lose his head.



sasuke neck would have broken. feel free to prove his neck would have been chopped off. 

A can perform piercing attacks however implying his punch got some piercing effect is simply the dumbest thing ive heard you say. and thats alot

btw A elbowed jugo and jugo wasnt pierced. he also punched madara and madara wasnt pierced. So am wondering why were madara's arms not run through with this magical piercing punch of A's??

Either way Grimmjaw version of A wins that i dont doubt. kishi version however isnt winning this


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

@mods and grimmjaw 
Sorry for going off a little bit 
Simple reason A punch won't kill orochimaru regardless of what it does

Hidan who uses an immortality jutsu survived decapitation . Neither hidan or orochimaru are Truly immortal 

However orochimaru immortality jutsu exceeds hidans because orochimaru can heal wounds while hidan process is so much slower . If hidan looses a hand said hand in lost . Oro gets a new one 

So the only person we can compare to orochimaru is another person using an immortality jutsu . If hidan looses his head he doesn't die

Neither should orochimaru it's that simple 

Hidan is used a jutsu to be immortal so did orochimaru . 

Hope you manage to get that grimmjaw 

It might be hard though


----------



## FlamingRain (May 5, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Wich didn't take much time. And her expression and words were clear pain, she also coughed blood. She damaged herself. All those actions are more believable than Ei's.



So let me get this straight....Tsunade says,

_*I've put my life on the line for this battle.
No preserving strength, I'm giving it all I've got right now!​*_
and somehow her "words were clear pain"?

You can take that as Tsunade saying "screw stamina", but there is no way that you can possibly interpret that to mean "ow this crap freaking hurts, _oh the pain_, my regeneration isn't working right or something!"

It would be _very_ strange if she _didn't_ cough up blood, considering that there obviously would have been a lot of bleeding going on when she got those swords the width of her waist run through her. Regenerating replaces the blood she lost when she got stabbed, it doesn't just make the rest of the blood evaporate into nowhere- the blood had to get out of her somehow. Coughing it out is not evidence that the reason she collapsed was due to the severity of the damage as opposed to gradually tiring out, which was the factor in question.

The point of having Tsunade and Ay argue over stamina _right_ before Tsunade takes a knee is not for us to call it mere coincidence, dismiss them, and then try to attribute the event to something else that wasn't given _any sort_ of precedent in the manga.



> I do agree she has survived a lot. That's not even debatable. However, beign Juubi Jin should make you more durable and/or resilient.



I know it makes you more _durable_, but I'm talking specifically about resilience. I don't know when it's ever been established to make the host more resilient.

No, that _doesn't_ mean saying that Tsunade could tank all of Red Gai's hits either.



> Impossible. For once, the head has it's priorities when it comes to the entire body, she 1: regenerates from the head or 2: regenerates from both sides. making two Tsunades. Byakugo is not an intelligent being to regenerate only one part.
> 
> Also, her seal is in her head. Cutting the body from the head should cut the jutsu in the body.



If Byakugō "is not an intelligent being" how the mess is it going to prioritize the head? You're saying it will do _A_ and yet not do _A_ at the same time. _That's_ impossible. Though having said it, Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō should be no less "intelligent" than Edo Tensei, which didn't just reform two Itachis or a billion Madaras and Mūs.

The _seal_ isn't the source, it just stores up the source, which is Tsunade's Chakra. Said Chakra flows throughout the body after Infūin: Kai _releases_ the seal, which is why the seal disappears/becomes negative space. It's a sign that _it_ is empty at that point, _the Chakra_ has been poured out into the rest of the body, and it is _the Chakra_, now circulating throughout her body, that stimulates the cell replication process until it either runs out or Tsunade _re_forms the seal _(1)_.

Tsunade's head doesn't sustain the technique, but it is encompassed by the "all organs and parts" part of her claim.




Honestly, when Tsunade said she could regenerate organs and limbs did you think she meant that if somebody ripped off her arm another Tsunade would grow out of there while her arm grew back on her original body, or just that her arm would grow back on her original body?

Probably the latter, right? So guess what's likely to happen if her head flies.


But if you think cutting her up will lead to an army of Tsunade's that's fine...she still wins.


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

well as for tsunade loosing a head the only person on panel we can compare her to is hidan 
hidan uses a jutsu to be immortal in battle. if the guy doesn't eat he can apparently still die. so he is simply using a jutsu to be "immortal"

so is tsunade. however tsunade immortality allows her to heal herself unlike hidan who cant heal body parts

I really see no reason why the likes of kakuzu, tsunade or orochimaru who have all been implied immortal due to the technique they use die from something that hidan with the lesser immortality technique didn't die from 

orochimaru life reincarnation> byakuyo>earth grudge fear> jashin immortality jutsu 

btw all those immortality jutsu are S rank. so kishi must in some respect view them as equally hax. Do see the jutsu ranking system in DB 4

hidan is the only one implied to be immortal who cant heal up damage. I really don't see it! how can hidan survive something they cannot. 

tsunade already survived and got up from damage hidan straight up cant get up from, so did orochimaru and kakuzu.

from DB and Naruto wiki 
it seems Tsunde doesn't need to consciously heal when using byakuyo so even if her head was cut off. byakuyo would still be active and she should heal 

now A can keep attacking her body till tsunade runs out of chakra. this is how A would win. 

when orochimaru saw her use creation rebirth, he did not attempt cutting her head off. however he did try to suffocate her. you cant heal lungs starve of oxygen. even if u grow a new long, it would die out starved from oxygen 

I find it odd that kishi has shown us 2 ways implied to kill tsunade. 1 way implied to kill orochimaru 
1 way implied to kill kakuzu 

yet people think oh no kishi is wrong punching their head off would kill them. 

considering 
itachi, orochimaru, kakashi, madara, shikamaru arguably the smartest characters in the manga. never thought oh yh let me cut off their head that would kill them. 

i wonder why then.  maybe cuz that wont kill them. kishi has no issues with heads being removed in his manga. zetsu and hidan have lost their head

note: same way only way to kill sasori is to destroy his heart container. Limits to most things in Naruto have been clearly illustrated in the manga. Which has me confused when people still don't get what the limits of jutsu are. 

if tsunade or orochimaru could die by loosing a head this would have been implied firmly. yet kishi only had orochimaru mention bijudama would kill me. 
while tsunade said she cant heal molecular level damage. 

anywayz am just baffled by kishi Db statements and manga statements being refuted.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (May 5, 2015)

Do you even know what immortal means?


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

i do 
something that doesn't exist in kishi manga

however people have jutsu which mimics this 

an immortal is someone who cant die. if u can be killed however it means you are dead. 

its something that exists no where tbh. doesn't mean people can appear to look immortal

if u mean never aging 
orochimaru don't age, tsunade pretty much doesn't either she should be old and crispy, so should kakuzu 

so yup.  i know what immortal means in any sense of the word


----------



## FlamingRain (May 5, 2015)

Missed the response.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats what I meant. It looks like you get hit, thats what tricks your opponent into believing that he/she got you. I think Oro's Kawarimi works under the same princible. The outer shell is the thing that takes the damage instead of you. Same with regular kawarimi.



Orochimaru isn't big enough for there to be enough space for another Orochimaru to just sit inside of himself and not be reached by the attack.

If it were just an outer shell being shed Orochimaru would have still came out with a missing arm after Kn3 attacked him, and with a messed up torso and throat when Kabuto attacked him, but that's not what happened. Heck if the technique had to be cast _before_ the user was hit and the user just sat inside an outer layer of skin they shouldn't be able to cast other techniques before emerging, but Sasuke used Chidori to cut open the floor before ripping out of his chest.

They don't swap positions, they produce a new body. With this method there is no reason that they would be required to use the Jutsu before receiving damage. The only reason the regular Kawarimi has to be executed prior to receiving damage is because it is actually swapping places with another object as opposed to _producing one_.



> Technically yes, but like I said, that beats the purpose of Kawarimi.



And like I said it doesn't defeat the purpose if it is only a Kawarimi in the loosest sense of the word, which should be obvious enough given that the mechanics are demonstrably fundamentally different. That is, it's a Kawarimi in the sense that a new body is produced to fight in the stead of (i.e.- _replace_) the old, as opposed to being a Kawarimi in the sense of one swapping positions with something so as to avoid being hit altogether.



> What you'r describing here is basically very high end regeneration, even more so than Tsunade's forehead seal jutsu.



His advanced regenerative abilities have been brought up in both the manga and databook as the "power of the white snake", a snake which is said to _represent rebirth and regeneration_ and a snake which Orochimaru's "true form" is essentially a conglomerate of.

Tsunade's Sōzō Saisei doesn't pop out a new body, it fixes the injured body. "Rebuilding" is a better word for that than "replacing".


----------



## Icegaze (May 5, 2015)

@gotta rep you flaming awesome response 

On orochimaru replacement technique . It replaces the old one as the new self grows from the old body in a sense 
Similar to how manda shed his own skin . 

It's essentailly replacing the old self with a new one . Not replacing one self with an object which requires timing . Something this technique does not .


----------



## Veracity (May 5, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. Not because i think your reasoning is bad, i think it's very good and valid. It's just that i see the other one worse, because i feel that being stabbed and slashed might not be worse than being almost chopped in half. But like i said, it's not because i think your reasoning is bad at all, i took all the points you made and find it very reasonable.
> 
> The time frame of Madara sending her flying away with Magatama is not short, it's not large either, but it was the perfect one to show us how she heals and how much time it takes. The time frame with Juudara was short, yes. But my point was that even blunt force attacks strong enough can kill a regenerating user without destroying their body, just causing enough damage and pain for the user to handle and kill them in one blow.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I had school work.

The only reason I actually even compare the two is because Tsunade was physically in a far worse condition against Oro. Not only was she out of shape( evident by being exhausted after that skirmish) but she survived the onslaught without regeneration. So surviving that while rusty and without any regeneration actually seems like a better feat than bending over from 2 Sussano swords while shape and Byakago, and that's if an only if we assume it wasn't purely a result of exhaustion.

What makes you think the time frame was long at all? Madara impaled her body, she took the sword out, swung, and then got blasted by yasaka right after that. We can only assume she had the time frame of swinging a sword to regenerate almost being split in half, considering the Yasaka probably re opened the entire cut.

Yes blunt force damage would kill tsunade, but that's assuming it turns her into basically nothing; and EE/Night Moth both do that, but decapitation doesn't. & that's really the topic here .

But that's not how Byakago works .... She doesn't need to be actively exerting or kneading chakra. The justu stays activate as long as she has chakra, and uses said chakra to heal injuries, that's what differentiates it from SS. That's why she created the Justu, so she doesn't have to worry about dying in battle as her injuries are instantly healed. I doubt severing the head will do anything as she doesn't need to be concious to heal.  I don't really think she needs her brain to heal based on the mechanics of Byakugo. What sounds the most reasonable is Tsunade healing a head or tsuande healing her entire body if needed. 

I feel like a summoning that can split into thousands of durable slugs, heals, and can piece exhausted Tsuande together could atleast create an opening for her to get back into battle. But that heavily depends on the situation.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 5, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Missed the response.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well man, I don't have much else to say in this matter.

I've given you the definition of Kawarimi. Split second swapping is what the technique does.

Also what Orochimaru did against Kn3 doesn't contradict my definition. IF he had cast the kawarimi before he recieved the blow, he could basically negate the damage inflicted on his arm. Nothing contradictory there.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Madara already admitted to being slower than Tobirama who admitted to being slower than Minato
> A is the next in line in speed
> 
> Lol love how people don't read the manga



 I'm questioning when this was. For all we know, Madara was likely referring to Tobirama's FTG, not pure Shunshin. Instant teleportation will always be faster than actual movement speed.



> EMS madara faster than A



So blitzing SM Naruto who can casually evade someone within Ei's speed tier means nothing.

 But yes, considering Madara is God with Indra's Chakra, he should be well above Ei's speed.


----------



## Rocky (May 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So blitzing SM Naruto who can casually evade someone within Ei's speed tier means nothing.



One, Naruto was able to block Madara's kick there. 

Two, Sandaime Raikage is not as fast as A. That wasn't said in the manga. What Naruto _did_ was say was that the 3rd was fast too. The fact that Naruto found both Raikages to be being speedy does not make them equivalent. 

Three, v1 A was capable of "blitzing"  KCM Naruto (read: forcing him to guard) multiple times. That's a better feat than "blitzing" Sage Naruto, who cannot move as fast as KCM Naruto.


----------



## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

@narutoX28
Madara after he trolled Tobirama said you were hailed as the fastest of our time 
Regardless of how said soeed was achieved tobirama was faster the rest is ur BS semantics 

So no nothing at all in the manga indicates madara is even slightly as fast as A 

Otherwise jugo who blocked V1 A is as fast as V1 A using ur laughable faulty logic


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutoX28
> Madara after he trolled Tobirama said you were hailed as the fastest of our time
> Regardless of how said soeed was achieved tobirama was faster the rest is ur BS semantics



 Fastest of his time due to FTG.

 His movement speed however, pales in comparison to Madara's. Hell, it pales in comparison to Ei's and the 3rd Raikage's for that matter.



> So no nothing at all in the manga indicates madara is even slightly as fast as A



 Practically blitzing SM Naruto does.



> Otherwise jugo who blocked V1 A is as fast as V1 A using ur laughable faulty logic



 Please explain where you came to this conclusion.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> One, Naruto was able to block Madara's kick there.



 Yet he casually dodged Sandaime Raikage's strike. Him having to resort to blocking showcases superior speed for Madara compared to the 3rd Raikage's despite SM Naruto also charging at the Raikage for a counterattack. Madara is clearly significantly faster given that.



> Two, Sandaime Raikage is not as fast as A. That wasn't said in the manga. What Naruto _did_ was say was that the 3rd was fast too. The fact that Naruto found both Raikages to be being speedy does not make them equivalent.



 Kishimoto made a direct comparison to each other based on the Raikage's feats. Him stating that he was fast too literally means he was on the 4th's speed tier and it'd make no sense for that not to be the case or else Kishimoto would've made the distinction.



> Three, v1 A was capable of "blitzing"  KCM Naruto (read: forcing him to guard) multiple times. That's a better feat than "blitzing" Sage Naruto, who cannot move as fast as KCM Naruto.



 Not exactly considering SM Naruto is implied to have superior reactions compared to KCM Naruto and him not being able to move as fast as KCM Naruto in terms of physical speed is pure conjecture.

 V1 A being capable of "blitzing" KCM Naruto never happened. KCM Naruto never resorted to many offensive maneuvers while the Raikage was completely serious. I do admit that KCM Naruto could not react very effectively against V1 though that's likely because RnY enhances both Ei and the Raikage's reactions substantially while KCM doesn't have the same effect for Naruto which equates to the Raikage being able to react more efficiently at higher speeds.

 But regardless, SM Naruto's reactions were stated to be superior than KCM Naruto's reactions.


----------



## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Fastest of his time due to FTG.
> 
> His movement speed however, pales in comparison to Madara's. Hell, it pales in comparison to Ei's and the 3rd Raikage's for that matter.
> 
> ...



so is minato. due to FTG that doesnt remotely imply that without it madara would be faster. kishi makes general statements. or do you have a panel stating without FTG minato would be slower than A

cuz kishi made no such statements

Sorry did you just imply A is slower than his dad? 

i came to the faulty logic since your only reasoning for madara being faster than A is being able to block A

or does madara have any feats or statements putting him on A level

blitzing SM naruto is hardly an achievement impossible for A at max shunshin 

kishi the author puts KCM>>>>>>>>SM naruto 

if its taking naruto bijuu level chakra to avoid A punch. naruto in Sm doesnt stand a chance of avoiding A fastest punch. blocking is an entirely different an easier thing to do 

in any case till you got some manga statement calling madara the fastest of his time. he isnt anything in speed to A


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

attacking SM Narudo who was not even fighting (and still blocked his attack) to prove that he's faster than A is a such d**b**s argument honestly.

Madara was fodderstompped by base Lee and couldn't react. There you go.  
He did not avoid Gaara's sand, nor any of the Bijuu's for that matter. 
He got fodderstompped by black Zetsu. 
He was slower than Tsunade apparently as well, since he couldn't dodge her attack, regardless if he stopped it with Susanoo. 
and couldn't avoid Obito trolling him either.

and no, based on that laughable argument, it does not matter that he was not fighting or what he believed. It's the same shit in both cases.


----------



## Veracity (May 6, 2015)

Alive EMS Madara isn't faster than V2 Ay, but atleast on the same tier. Still faster than V1 Ay though seeing as he pretty much put Sage Naruto in the same position a V2 flicker would have.


----------



## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

yh makes no sense for madara to be faster than A who is pumping bijuu level chakra into his shunshin 

when you think about the people faster than him and what they must do to be faster

hirashin, kyuubi chakra mode, gates 

i mean madara has nothing on that level to boost his speed. makes no sense for him to be faster. or might as well imply hashirama is faster than minato just for the lolz


----------



## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Still faster than V1 Ay though seeing as he pretty much put Sage Naruto in the same position a V2 flicker would have.



How would you determine that, though? V1 A _forced_ KCM Naruto to do the same thing Sage Naruto did against Madara (guard), _multiple times_ at that. Sage Naruto can't move faster than KCM Naruto can...


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Alive EMS Madara isn't faster than V2 Ay, but atleast on the same tier. Still faster than V1 Ay though seeing as he pretty much put Sage Naruto in the same position a V2 flicker would have.



He is not on the same tier as V1 A either. Since people love to put connect HashiMada together, judging by that (although don't really think it's accurate thing to do ) We know that base Minato's shunshin is several tiers above the other Hokages, and we know that A's shunshin is even better than him. 

So, it's obviously far superior to Madara's. And again, Narudo was not even fighting him or anything, and yet he blocked his attack.



> i mean madara has nothing on that level to boost his speed. makes no sense for him to be faster. or might as well* imply hashirama is faster than minato just for the *lolz



Implying they haven't done that already. 
The whole Minato arriving first according to those who have a hard on to Hashirama, is he's the only one who was using his full speed
and the others were only chilling around, and not using their speed.


----------



## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

@hussain lol thats entirely false considering tobirama statement right after
your shunshin is faster than mine

why make that comment if they werent all going at full speed

but yh people understand the manga differently every now and then 

i mean when u got people claiming madara faster than A


----------



## Veracity (May 6, 2015)

Rocky said:


> How would you determine that, though? V1 A _forced_ KCM Naruto to do the same thing Sage Naruto did against Madara (guard), _multiple times_ at that. Sage Naruto can't move faster than KCM Naruto can...



In close quarter situations, Sage naruto reacts and moves faster as per canon. KYUUBI naruto only moves faster via Shunshin as he can expel massive amounts of chakra into a dash. Did you notice how Naruto made that claim  of Sage Naruto> Kcm Naruto in CQC after he had mastered his KCM abilities?  KCM Naruto's first couple of exchanges against AY were pitiful as he couldn't release his true shunshin. 

KCM Naruto and Minato have almost equal Shunshins, as they were placed in virtually the same position against ays maxed power shushin. Ays V1 flicker wouldn't have even came close to blitzing KCM Naruto if he was as focused as he was in his last exhange against him . Alive Madara hardly enabled Sage Naruto to get a complete block in seeing as he launched his heavy and strong ass like a ragdoll casually. Which is what I assume his interaction with V2 Ay would look like, but against V1 Ay, he would block his attack easily.


@hussain 
Minato's shunshin is not several tiers above anything lol( Nevermind the fact that KISHI was implying FTG and not shunshin). He was the only kage using shunshin, seeing as the others arrived at the same time, with heavily different shushin speeds. They were using movement speed.  Based on feats and outright logic, the absolute most you could assume is that Minato's shushin is just marginally better than Tobiramas.

Tobirama was stated to be faster than Madara, and it's clearly implied to be via FTG. Raikage was faster than minato, but because Minato had FTG, he was considered the fastest alive. & I never claimed Madara was faster than V2 Raikage, he's slower for sure. But in the same speed tier.

You mean SAGE NARUTO, looking at Madara ? Was he not expecting a fight ?


----------



## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

@like boss 
Sm naruto through the use of katas can better anticipate and react to an enemy 
That doesn't mean he Can move qhicker 

Same way sasuke hit V1 Ei yet he is far from quicker tjan V1 Ei

Though in reading your post again you said just that 

Though as to minato being only marginally faster than Tobirama and the other kage 

Do U have sure proof the other kage weren't using shunshin . Because tobirama brings up minato shunshin and compares it to his own 

Then sounds surprised when he realizes minato has already marked the area 

Minato shunshin is clearly above the other kages . The comparison doesn't even exist . Tobirama the second fastest admitted just that . That he was slower than minato


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> @hussain
> Minato's shunshin is not several tiers above anything lol( Nevermind the fact that KISHI was implying FTG and not shunshin). He was the only kage using shunshin, seeing as the others arrived at the same time, with heavily different shushin speeds. They were using movement speed.  Based on feats and outright logic, the absolute most you could assume is that Minato's shushin is just marginally better than Tobiramas.
> 
> Tobirama was stated to be faster than Madara, and it's clearly implied to be via FTG. Raikage was faster than minato, but because Minato had FTG, he was considered the fastest alive. & I never claimed Madara was faster than V2 Raikage, he's slower for sure. But in the same speed tier.
> ...



So you're saying
1- arriving and using S/T barrier (which require hand-seals, mind you) to teleport the strongest attack the Juubi has with full power.

2- separating the Kunais all around the Juubi (a massive area)
3- having a conversation with his child, after the blast

and that is not a huge different?  



> He was the only kage using shunshin, seeing as the others arrived at the same time, with heavily different shushin speeds


:rofl

See Icegaze? 

no, the Hokages, were using their full shunshin, and Minato was not even using shunshin and still outpaced them, how about that? 



> Minato's shushin is just marginally better than Tobiramas.


pure BS. 
there is absolutly no comparison. Tobirama's shunshin is just as good as the other 2 Hokages.


> he's slower for sure. But in the same speed tier.


Not even close. 



> You mean SAGE NARUTO, looking at Madara ? Was he not expecting a fight ?


Just like how Madara couldn't dodge Lee or Gaara's sand. Sure.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so is minato. due to FTG that doesnt remotely imply that without it madara would be faster. kishi makes general statements. or do you have a panel stating without FTG minato would be slower than A.



 I already proved why Madara is at least on Ei's speed tier which far surpasses Base Minato's movement speed considering he required a full field of Kunai to dodge Young Ei as well as the fact that Raikage's reflexes are superior to Minato's.



> cuz kishi made no such statements



 He doesn't have to.



> Sorry did you just imply A is slower than his dad?
> 
> i came to the faulty logic since your only reasoning for madara being faster than A is being able to block A



 What is up with you treating everyone else as if they are idiots? Furthermore, you seem to take what I said way out of context. I will wait until you quote me on my statement of A being slower than Sandaime Raikage b/c I am confident I made no such statement. What I did imply is that they are on the same speed tier. I also never used that scenario in the first place. I was referring to this:

Sharingans

 Not this:

Sharingans

 Thank god Rocky took the time to actually carefully read my post. It avoids pointless arguments such as this.



> or does madara have any feats or statements putting him on A level
> 
> blitzing SM naruto is hardly an achievement impossible for A at max shunshin



 Really? Well, I'm convinced then.



> kishi the author puts KCM>>>>>>>>SM naruto



Sharingans

 Where reflexes are important in both of the scenarios I was talking about, he's really not.  And quite frankly, aimlessly throwing claims such as KCM Naruto being far superior to SM Naruto isn't very convincing because frankly, I'm sure KCM Naruto is stronger, but nothing implies there's a massive gap between them as both have been shown to be useful for different scenarios.



> if its taking naruto bijuu level chakra to avoid A punch. naruto in Sm doesnt stand a chance of avoiding A fastest punch. blocking is an entirely different an easier thing to do



 If that's the case, KCM Naruto isn't either even though he's considerably faster than V2 Ei. 



> in any case till you got some manga statement calling madara the fastest of his time. he isnt anything in speed to A



 Unless you have a manga statement that implies Ei is faster than Madara, then you have no point. Using the lame hype won't work either as Ei had never faced Madara prior to making his statements.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Alive EMS Madara isn't faster than V2 Ay, but atleast on the same tier. Still faster than V1 Ay though seeing as he pretty much put Sage Naruto in the same position a V2 flicker would have.



 We can at least agree on him being faster than V1 Ei. That's something that I do believe should be agreed upon if everyone truly believes Sandaime Raikage is on V1 Ei's speed tier.


----------



## Veracity (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @like boss
> Sm naruto through the use of katas can better anticipate and react to an enemy
> That doesn't mean he Can move qhicker
> 
> ...



What ? In sage mode, his Sage sencing allows him to react to attacks quicker. So I'm a Cqc exchange he is easily quicker .

Which doesn't matter here as Madara clearly was faster than Sage Naruto, and Naruto easily could have used his Sage sensing to anticipate the attack better, but instead was ragdolled. V1 Ay didnt actually use shunshin against either.

I am positive, as they all arrived at the same time and are massively different speeds overall. Unless you think Hirzuen = tobirama in shunshin speed? I have many examples of two individuals of completely different speed tiered arriving at a location at the same time. Know why? It's movement speed.

Tobirama doesn't have to be using shunshin to know that Minato's was better.... Same way if Shino sees Ay flicker across the battlefield, he's gonna know right away who's faster.

@Hussain
It's a big difference, but that's the difference between shunshin and movement speed rather shunshin and shunshin so no.

Do you really think Hirzuen is equal to Tobirama in shunshin ? Not only that, but do you think it's possible for them all to posses the EXACT SAME shunshin speed. If you do, than this debate is useless as we both are never gonna agree to anything.

I'm pretty sure both those situations are completely different from this one. And Madara doesn't have magical omnipresent sensing like sage Naruto.


----------



## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> In close quarter situations, Sage naruto reacts and moves faster as per canon. KYUUBI naruto only moves faster via Shunshin as he can expel massive amounts of chakra into a dash. Did you notice how Naruto made that claim  of Sage Naruto> Kcm Naruto in CQC after he had mastered his KCM abilities?



Sage Naruto can respond before KCM Naruto with the pseudo-precognition that is Danger Sensing. That said, KCM can run or dash faster than Sage Naruto with Shunshin, like you said. As long as both possess the capability to react at all (and both do in the Madara case), then KCM Naruto is faster. That's why Sage Naruto can't dodge v2 A.



> KCM Naruto's first couple of exchanges against AY were pitiful as he couldn't release his true shunshin.



Pitiful? That's an overstatement. That whole conflict was portrayed to be a speedy one. 

If I had to rate Shunshin speed, it's go something like:

Sage Naruto << KCM Naruto ≤ v1 A < v2 A ≤ KCM Naruto (max speed).

Madara would fall somewhere around KCM Naruto imo. It's v1 A's tier, but I don't see anything supporting placing him _above_ the Raikage.



> KCM Naruto and Minato have almost equal Shunshins, as they were placed in virtually the same position against ays maxed power shushin.



Minato never used Shunshin to dodge A. 



> Ays V1 flicker wouldn't have even came close to blitzing KCM Naruto if he was as focused as he was in his last exhange against him . Alive Madara hardly enabled Sage Naruto to get a complete block in seeing as he launched his heavy and strong ass like a ragdoll casually. Which is what I assume his interaction with V2 Ay would look like, but against V1 Ay, he would block his attack easily.



All Madara did was use the body flicker to kick Naruto, which was blocked. Unless you believe that Naruto can get out of the way of v1 A's flickers:



...then the same exact thing would happen; Naruto guards and gets sent flying because of A's power.


----------



## Rocky (May 6, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet he casually dodged Sandaime Raikage's strike. Him having to resort to blocking showcases superior speed for Madara compared to the 3rd Raikage's despite SM Naruto also charging at the Raikage for a counterattack. Madara is clearly significantly faster given that.



_*If*_ Naruto was using his danger sensing against Madara (which is a big if), all that would indicate is that Madara's flicker speed is superior to Sandaime Raikage's foot speed. He didn't appear to be flickering at Sage Naruto.



> Kishimoto made a direct comparison to each other based on the Raikage's feats. Him stating that he was fast too literally means he was on the 4th's speed tier and it'd make no sense for that not to be the case or else Kishimoto would've made the distinction.



That's not how you logic.

Both Raikage are fast because of the cloak they share, which increases reflex speed. However, A's reflexes _before_ the cloak were compared to Minato's, and the third has no such hype. 

That's irrelevant though because we're talking about _Shunshin_ speed. A has fantastic hype/feats with the body flicker, while the 3rd has _*nonthing.*_



> Not exactly considering SM Naruto is implied to have superior reactions compared to KCM Naruto and him not being able to move as fast as KCM Naruto in terms of physical speed is pure conjecture.



Sage Naruto doesn't have KCM Naruto's flicker speed feats or hype.



> V1 A being capable of "blitzing" KCM Naruto never happened. KCM Naruto never resorted to many offensive maneuvers while the Raikage was completely serious.



Everytime Naruto tired to flicker past A, A would intercept him and smack him back down to the ground before he could do anything...


----------



## Veracity (May 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sage Naruto can respond before KCM Naruto with the pseudo-precognition that is Danger Sensing. That said, KCM can run or dash faster than Sage Naruto with Shunshin, like you said. As long as both possess the capability to react at all (and both do in the Madara case), then KCM Naruto is faster. That's why Sage Naruto can't dodge v2 A.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ummm? But sage naruto could prolly plant his feet in place and outright tank his punch, or has the reactions to catch his fist or something of that sort considering he is > to KCM Naruto, who was inches away from getting slaughtered by V2 Ay. V1 AY wouldn't get even 5 feet in front of concentrated KCM a Naruto before he warps away, and condemned Sage Mode Naruto can react better, I would assume he would rhino Ay's ass in V1 and only be able to put up a block vs V2, which is exactly my point here.

The exchanges were much worse than what Naruto did at the end considering he could shunshin 5m out of  V2 Ays AoE almost instantly. And above pretty much explains where I put them in a tier as I don't think V1 Ay would pressure Sage Naruto to only block. So it would be:
Sage Naruto<< Intial KCM Naruto= V1 Ay< Madara< V2 Ay< KCM Naruto.

I meant reactions my bad my bad.

Sage Naruto is MUCH more reflexive then Jugo( but I doubt you are trying to go against that) and IMO, he would prolly Rhino ays ass like this: Link removed
Or at very least , plant his feet and stop from being ragdolled. The more I analyze the feat Madara's ragdolled him with a combination of speed and power , as he definitely isn't that much stronger than him if not actually a bit weaker. So Naruto hardly being able to plant his feet to the point where he was sent flying in the air( as opposed to stopping the charge of a rhino and flinging it above the clouds) puts Madara at: V1 Ay< EMS Madara < V2 ay.


----------



## Rocky (May 7, 2015)

I thought about this for a while...and you may be right. Naruto couldn't catch A's fist, but he should have been able to catch Madara's if Madara had moved as fast as v1 A there. I feel like I'm missing something. Eh, I'll think about it some more. 

Though I do want to say that if Naruto wasn't using his sensing against Madara (like J-man wasn't using it against Pain, or Madara wasn't using it against Zetsu, etc.), then this entire debate comes to a screeching halt.


----------



## Veracity (May 7, 2015)

Jirayia was caught from behind though after he thought he killed the pains . Naruto was looking right at Madara lol.


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

@like boss tell me why hiruzen cannot have shunshin equal to Tobirama 
Who was the fastest thanks to Hirashin which he spams

Why can't hashirama , Tobirama and hiruzen have the same speed. Is there some logical restriction on that 

Not like Tobirama would ever need great physical speed when he got clones and hirashin to troll every fast person 

It's entirely possible madara might equal or surpass V1 A 

However I doubt A at max shunshin will be surpassed by madara who isn't a speed oriented fighter


----------



## Rocky (May 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Jirayia was caught from behind though after he thought he killed the pains . Naruto was looking right at Madara lol.



Um, so what?

Does Naruto looking at Madara mean he's actively utilizing his sensing?


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Um, so what?
> 
> Does Naruto looking at Madara mean he's actively utilizing his sensing?



Does naruto not have eyes 

He doesn't need to sense something he can see coming 

Again he used frog katas to accurately evade sandaime and land his counter attack 

He says so on panel . Hence why he swapped to SM It wasn't just to evade the attack but land his counter . Which is the huge CQC advantage SM has over KcM


----------



## Veracity (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @like boss tell me why hiruzen cannot have shunshin equal to Tobirama
> Who was the fastest thanks to Hirashin which he spams
> 
> Why can't hashirama , Tobirama and hiruzen have the same speed. Is there some logical restriction on that
> ...



Characters with speedy arsenals tend to have fast Shunshins, but if that doesn't work for you , it's to note that Hiruzen was revived in his old state while Tobirama was revived in youth. Do you seriously think old Hiruzen has an equal Shunshin to young tobirama? .... If that's still not enough, than its implied that Tobirama at the very least has a shunshin comparable to Hashirama's whose feats shit all over anything Hiruzen can muster. Like escaping the AOE of COFRS while exhausted or outpacing a ocean crossing Bjuidama... If that's still not enough for you, do tell me the odds of three completely different Hokages with 3 different skill sets possessing exactly equal Shunshins ??? That's not even logical .

And yess I agree . IMO V1 Ay< Madara < V2 Ay.

@Rocky.

If Naruto was in a battle, why wouldn't he have his sage sencing activate ? Like really, do give me a single reason why Naruto (after just watching one of the main antagonist troll the other antagonist) would just say" fuck it .. Let me not just be prepared here at all."

I'm pretty the only feat you have of a Sage being caught off guard was when Jirayia outright thought he killed the paths, which is the absolute reverse here actually. But if you don't agree to that, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree .


----------



## Rocky (May 7, 2015)

I can give you the feat of Jubi Madara being caught off guard by Zetsu, though Jubi sensing may work differently.

The only other thing I'd have would be BM Naruto smashing his tail into Sage Madara's Susano'o _from behind._


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Characters with speedy arsenals tend to have fast Shunshins, but if that doesn't work for you , it's to note that Hiruzen was revived in his old state while Tobirama was revived in youth. Do you seriously think old Hiruzen has an equal Shunshin to young tobirama? .... If that's still not enough, than its implied that Tobirama at the very least has a shunshin comparable to Hashirama's whose feats shit all over anything Hiruzen can muster. Like escaping the AOE of COFRS while exhausted or outpacing a ocean crossing Bjuidama... If that's still not enough for you, do tell me the odds of three completely different Hokages with 3 different skill sets possessing exactly equal Shunshins ??? That's not even logical .



the hyuga have speedy arsenal yet have no impressive shunshin. so no that generalisation doesnt work for me. 

onoki old and past his prime was faster than when deidara remembers him. I am sure onoki got older. Old onoki is still quite alot faster than characters younger than himself. 

no reason getting older would have stopped his ability to put chakra in his feet to move faster. What would be affected in old age is his ability to keep up that speed. which ET eliminates. 

again hiruzen feat compared to hashirama is keepign up with hashirama. so hiruzen by all accounts is just as fast. 

their shunshin werent exactly equal though. look at the panel again. tobirama gets there before the last 2. and it seems by a little bit. hiruzen is crouched down implying he just landed. tobirama is already standing and commenting on minato speed. 



> And yess I agree . IMO V1 Ay< Madara < V2 Ay.



this seems fair enough



> @Rocky.
> 
> If Naruto was in a battle, why wouldn't he have his sage sencing activate ? Like really, do give me a single reason why Naruto (after just watching one of the main antagonist troll the other antagonist) would just say" fuck it .. Let me not just be prepared here at all."



he wasnt fighting madara though or prepared to. He just watched blind madara troll amterasu. he was analysisng madara new skill set. 



> I'm pretty the only feat you have of a Sage being caught off guard was when Jirayia outright thought he killed the paths, which is the absolute reverse here actually. But if you don't agree to that, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree .



Sm madara being blindsided by BM naruto as well. Sm madara is a sage


----------



## Veracity (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the hyuga have speedy arsenal yet have no impressive shunshin. so no that generalisation doesnt work for me.
> 
> onoki old and past his prime was faster than when deidara remembers him. I am sure onoki got older. Old onoki is still quite alot faster than characters younger than himself.
> 
> ...



Onoki flies, it doesn't have to do with his physical speed which clearly deteriorates with  age. That same Onoki has terrible back problems btw.

You still have to physically capable to have a fast shunshin, it's not just chakra precision, which Hirzuen isn't better than tobiram regardless.

Why would ET negate age ? The person is brought back in the condition they died( for the most part) with the same physical stats. I've im on my deathbed, being revived by EDO won't suddenly make me as fast as when I was younger so..

They weren't using shunshin that's how he could keep up. It's movement speed, it's the same way most ninja travel and keep up with eachother. Under your logic, Bee = KCM Naruto considering he kept up with him. Lee = Tenten = Neji, considering they all arrived at the same time. The entire SA are all equal considering they all arrive at the same time. ETC ETC ETC.

Uuhh no. Look closely and you can see the impact marks under each Hokages feet indicating that they just landed; _from behind._, notice how Minato doesn't have one? Cause he was already there. 

Why the hell wouldn't he be mentally prepared to attack ? It's like you and rocky are in denial RN . He would instantly activate his Sage sencing once he sees Madara as He is a threat . No need for him not to.

@ Rocky.

We both know Madara was basically running into attacks into that point as well as the fact that he really couldn't physically escape that or the fact that it was blindsided. And Naruto canonically reacts to blindsided attacks and seems to have the best Sage Pre cog.

But if it makes you feel better, that's a better example.


----------



## Rocky (May 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> We both know Madara was basically running into attacks into that point as well as the fact that he really couldn't physically escape that or the fact that it was blindsided.



We received no indication that Madara sensed Naruto's attack.



> And Naruto canonically reacts to blindsided attacks and seems to have the best Sage Pre cog.



Sage Madara was able to canonically react to an attack from Tobirama that he couldn't see. Yet in an other instance, he didn't see Naruto coming from behind. 

I personally don't know what the deal is, but it's clear that Sage Sensing isn't always active.


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Onoki flies, it doesn't have to do with his physical speed which clearly deteriorates with  age. That same Onoki has terrible back problems btw.
> 
> You still have to physically capable to have a fast shunshin, it's not just chakra precision, which Hirzuen isn't better than tobiram regardless.
> 
> ...



 
by my logic they are the same because tobirama specifically mentions shunshin
this was kishi way of pointing out that even at shunshin minato is better than all those before him
if they were using movement speed then so was minato

but then u would say no tobirama said he was using shunshin. what did he compare it to his own

how do we know its faster minato got there first. so that has nothign to do with all the other things you brought up to attempt denying the fact that nothing in the manga states hiruzen even old cant be as fast as tobirama

btw shunshin got nothing to do with physical ability. its chakra precision and quanitity 

physically naruto is a fly to A. guess who got the quicker shushin?

btw ET dont get tired which allows for more use of chakra without draw backs

note: please go back to kakashi explanation of shunshin please. the tree climbing lesson. he explains its only chakra precision and quantity nothing to do with physical ability

after kakashi explains it. sasuke applies it in his fight with haku. notice how he used shunshin without any improvement in his physical abilities.

maybe am confused but do show me a scan of kishi saying fast shunshin has to do with the person physical abilities


----------



## Veracity (May 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> by my logic they are the same because tobirama specifically mentions shunshin
> this was kishi way of pointing out that even at shunshin minato is better than all those before him
> if they were using movement speed then so was minato
> 
> ...



No? I already refuted this lol, you don't need to be using shunshin to know that someone else's shunshin is faster than yours. I don't know why that's so hard to understand lol.

You don't need to use your own to compare the two? I'm pretty sure Tsuande wasn't using her shunshin when she was hyping both the Raikage above her level so ..?

If you really believe old Hirzuen is faster than Tobirama by the virtue of them arriving somewhere at the same time, then you'll have to admire to a lot of shit. Like any ninja that arrives somewhere at the sametime as another is automatically the same speed. Yoy know how bad of an argument that is ? Like that's terrible but you can believe that if Want want to.

No. Shunshin isn't just chakra release or physical speed. It's a combination between both. Just because Ay is bigger doesn't mean he's physically faster. I'm pretty sure the fastest people alive aren't big and huge.

Doesn't matter if they don't get tired, it doesn't physically change how they are. Just because Edo Sasori doesn't get tired( which a little false actually) doesn't mean he's a speedster all of a sudden.

Actually because you made the claim that shunshin is merely chakra related first, the burden of proof is on you to prove that it has nothing to do with physicality.

@ Rocky.

Do we need an indication that a person reacts to anything ? We had literally no indication that Tobirama didn't just get outright blizted by Juubito until the next chapter. 

But yeah that's the thing. We don't know the deal. But the 4 times in the entire manga that a perfect sage has been caught off guard, they were all blindside attacked. Naruto wasn't blindside attacked here at all.


----------



## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> No? I already refuted this lol, you don't need to be using shunshin to know that someone else's shunshin is faster than yours. I don't know why that's so hard to understand lol.
> 
> You don't need to use your own to compare the two? I'm pretty sure Tsuande wasn't using her shunshin when she was hyping both the Raikage above her level so ..?
> 
> ...



Lol you really got no evidence @like boss 
Let's agree to disagree on this . 
The assumption that they didn't use shunshin simply suits you that's it 

Why would hiruzen an old man have the same movement speed as tobirams and hashirama tjen ?

Or can u prove they slowed down for him ?



 shunshin cjakra quantity and precision . It requires nothin else which is what I said 
Odd how u rush to reply while failing to read

Like boss read shunshin entry in DB 1 please this is getting boring . Show me where the author implies it requires anytbinf to do with the person physique 

sakura even explains this during her battle with ino. Cjakra precision and control allowed her to increase Her speed which is what shunshin is



Before u attempt to misunderstand my point it's simple . Old age wouldn't make hiruzen shushin suddenly slower . The fact that's its solely cjakra based could mean he could keep up the likes of hashirama and Tobirama due to his better cjakra control
Cuz he certainly has less chakra than them


----------

