# Deidara vs. Obito



## Nikushimi (Jun 3, 2014)

It occurred to me that Deidara's abilities are very well-suited to exploit the vulnerabilities of Kamui. I wanted to see if a favorable scenario would allow that.

*Location:* Deidara vs. Sasuke
*Distance:* 10m; Deidara is airborne at the same altitude
*Knowledge:* Deidara has FULL; Obito has NONE (as if he was meeting Deidara for the first time)
*Mindset:* In-character, but Deidara won't take Obito lightly
*Conditions/Restrictions:*
-This is MS Obito as Tobi, but he's dropped the "good boy" charade.
-Izanagi restricted.
-Assume that Deidara's got a full stock of clay, so no worries about running out

*Scenario 2:* Izanagi is allowed, but only in Obito's left eye; assume it's the same one he sacrificed to survive Konan's paper bomb trench.


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## fior fior (Jun 3, 2014)

Town-sized katon gg?


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## Nikushimi (Jun 3, 2014)

Don't see why Deidara couldn't evade it at 10m; Kakashi dodged Obito's Katon from almost melee range, and Deidara was able to escape Gaara's whole bloody desert even though it was tracking him.


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## LostSelf (Jun 3, 2014)

Yes, Deidara has a shot. If he lures Obito into a exploding C4 clone, Obito is fucked. Now the question is if Deidara could detonate the bomb in another dimension or not.


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2014)

I don't see how Deidara wins.

Obito just phases through all of his explosions and nukes him with bakufu ranbu.  Bakufu ranbu requires kamui, Kakashi didn't dodge that attack, he dodged a normal katon.  C4 isn't hitting obito as he'll make the same deduction that sasuke did by staying intangible and observing deidara, or he just blows all the stuff away with kamui or bakufu ranbu.  

Between that and *warping right above Deidara * he should win this without much trouble.


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## Ejenku (Jun 3, 2014)

With the way Obito fights and spams Kamui. I think any kage level clone user would have a high chance of taking him down like Naruto, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and Kakashi. The clone as shown with Naruto's are still active in the other realm. Even Naruto was able to figure out how easily he could attack Obito there even small pieces of him like a arm, leg etc..

Honesty Naruto and Kakashi should of beaten Obito when they had Kamui figured out. One stays in the realm and the other stays outside. A clone could easily do that if Obito falls for a feint.  Or simply use a clone and hide your location. Obito either phases your attack or he kamui's the clone leaving him open to the clone attacking him in the other dimension or the real body during the kamui itself.


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## Turrin (Jun 3, 2014)

Obito vs Deidara


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## Ninjaalex2 (Jun 3, 2014)

So, full knowledge, meaning Deidara knows how Kamui works. Well I suppose he could trick Tobi into warping an exploding clone, he should probably be able to pull it off. Although that's pretty much his only way of winning since all of his offensive explosions aren't doing anything.

S2- Chakra Rod through the back in the case Tobi screws up, even if you're expecting it, not like you'll be able to do much about it since I don't think Tobi's body will be visible if Deidara manages to kill him, with all the explosions and shit.


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## Kai (Jun 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Bakufu ranbu requires kamui


It doesn't.


Next page.

Obito and Madara activate their dojutsu after their Katon are cast.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 3, 2014)

With Mokuton, Katon and Kamui. I can see Obito beating Deidara.

He's probably going to be on the defensive till he figures Deidara out. It will be obvious that Deidara is a ranged fighter. 

I mainly see Obito winning because I can't see a scenario that Deidara can exploit Kamui's weakness.


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## Fox91 (Jun 3, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With Mokuton, Katon and Kamui. I can see Obito beating Deidara.
> 
> He's probably going to be on the defensive till he figures Deidara out. It will be obvious that Deidara is a ranged fighter.
> 
> I mainly see Obito winning because I can't see a scenario that Deidara can exploit Kamui's weakness.



This.

Being Deidara a long range ninja, even knowing how Kamui works, I don't see how it would apply his knowledge. Obito takes this fight. He's smart and it wouldn't take much time to figure it out how Deidara fights.


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2014)

Kai said:


> It doesn't.
> 
> 
> Next page.
> ...


Sure it does.

*Kishi shows us how bakufu ranbu gets its swirly shape the first time the technique was used.* *We see the exact same swirl in obito's later use of bakufu ranbu.*  Like every other technique in the manga, kishi doesn't have to show the user fullfilling the requirements on panel in order for us to conclude that those requirements still exist.

Obito just activated his kamui again in order to warp the giant kunais.


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## Ninjaalex2 (Jun 3, 2014)

Not completely sure but I think this is Tobi without Mokuton, the op only mentions it being "MS Tobi."


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## Kai (Jun 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Sure it does.
> 
> *Kishi shows us how bakufu ranbu gets its swirly shape the first time the technique was used.* *We see the exact same swirl in obito's later use of bakufu ranbu.*  Like every other technique in the manga, kishi doesn't have to show the user fullfilling the requirements on panel in order for us to conclude that those requirements still exist.
> 
> Obito just activated his kamui again in order to warp the giant kunais.


No, Kamui can be used _with_ Bakufu Ranbu to provide distortion effect. There is no swirly effect when Obito uses Katon against the Alliance, and Kishimoto never fails to illustrate swirling effects when Obito uses Kamui.

When he does use Kamui after, however:

in contrast to this:

Kamui isn't a requirement for Bakufu Ranbu. Certainly not the determinant on the size of his Katon ninjutsu, if you look at when he used them together against Naruto.


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## ueharakk (Jun 3, 2014)

Kai said:


> No, Kamui can be used _with_ Bakufu Ranbu to provide distortion effect. There is no swirly effect when Obito uses Katon against the Alliance, and Kishimoto never fails to illustrate swirling effects when Obito uses Kamui.


What 'distortion' affect are you talking about, and I don't see a swirly affect here despite the shuriken still coming out of obito's eye. 

*We also don't see any swirly effect in the panel where naruto blocks the technique.*

In order for you to assert that Kamui wasn't used for bakufu ranbu, you'd have to give some kind of explanation why both techniques look identical despite one being used via kamui and the other not, and you'd have to chalk it up to pure coincidence that bakufu ranbu just so happens to swirl on its own despite the fact that the instance where we have the most information on the technique shows us kamui being the thing that causes it to swirl and not just the katon.



Kai said:


> When he does use Kamui after, however:
> 
> in contrast to this:
> 
> Kamui isn't a requirement for Bakufu Ranbu. Certainly not the determinant on the size of his Katon ninjutsu, if you look at when he used them together against Naruto.


Look at the swirls of kamui in that first scan. They are so far away that they don't even touch obito's body, so why would we expect to see the swirls in a closeup panel of only obito's upper body?   Kamui is the determinant of the size of his katons, else the katon he fired in *this panel* would be far more powerful than madara's yet that's not implied.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Don't see why Deidara couldn't evade it at 10m; Kakashi dodged Obito's Katon from almost melee range, and Deidara was able to escape Gaara's whole bloody desert even though it was tracking him.


Because he's slow as fuck and couldn't avoid Sai from a similar distance- while on a clay bird?

Kakashi and Gai looked helpless when he showed killer intent with his katon, and they were further away than Deidara starts here. 

Deidara isn't avoiding shit. Obito warps into the dimension, and back out- on top of his clay bird. Now what does Deidara do? 

Clay bunshin substitution?

#Asspull


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## Nikushimi (Jun 3, 2014)

So nobody thinks Deidara could get Obito to warp away a bomb, then detonate it on him the next time he fazes with Kamui? 

C1 probably wouldn't be powerful enough to do the trick, but if he can get Obito to warp C3 or C4, or even just a suicide bomb clone, then Deidara might be able to kill or at least badly injure him.



Ninjaalex2 said:


> Not completely sure but I think this is Tobi without Mokuton, the op only mentions it being "MS Tobi."



MS Obito was able to use Mokuton even as a young teenager. He was practicing it in Madara's cave and used it to slaughter the Kiri Jonin who had cornered Kakashi and Rin.



DaVizWiz said:


> Because he's slow as fuck and couldn't avoid Sai from a similar distance- while on a clay bird?



Deidara's not slow at all, but there's probably no point in explaining to you for the billionth time that Sai is not the only shinobi Deidara has ever faced or that he's never had a problem reacting to shinobi much faster than Sai (e.g., Sasuke, Oonoki, and Gai).



> Kakashi and Gai looked helpless when he showed killer intent with his katon, and they were further away than Deidara starts here.



That Katon is not even Obito's typical opener in a no-knowledge situation against a single opponent, while in character.

Kakashi and Gai weren't in peak condition at that point, either, and neither of them had to defend against the Katon by themselves. And I'm sure I don't need to remind you who ended up kicking Obito's arse in his own world.



> Deidara isn't avoiding shit. Obito warps into the dimension, and back out- on top of his clay bird. Now what does Deidara do?




*Spoiler*: __


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## Kai (Jun 3, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> What 'distortion' affect are you talking about, and I don't see a swirly affect here despite the shuriken still coming out of obito's eye.
> 
> *We also don't see any swirly effect in the panel where naruto blocks the technique.*


Kamui is used with Bakufu Ranbu to create more of a vortex formation. It's not required for the jutsu.

Yes you do see a swirl effect of the shuriken coming out of Obito's eye.

There is always swirl effects when Obito unleashes Kamui or expels objects from the dimension. That is not the case when Obito unleashes his Bakufu Ranbu on the Alliance.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> In order for you to assert that Kamui wasn't used for bakufu ranbu, you'd have to give some kind of explanation why both techniques look identical despite one being used via kamui and the other not, and you'd have to chalk it up to pure coincidence that bakufu ranbu just so happens to swirl on its own despite the fact that the instance where we have the most information on the technique shows us kamui being the thing that causes it to swirl and not just the katon.


I was responding to an existing assertion which was yours.

You asserted Kamui must be used with Bakufu Ranbu, when Kishimoto has never once failed illustrating swirl effects when Obito uses Kamui to expel objects or the force from his eyes. 




			
				ueharrak said:
			
		

> Look at the swirls of kamui in that first scan. They are so far away that they don't even touch obito's body, so why would we expect to see the swirls in a closeup panel of only obito's upper body?   Kamui is the determinant of the size of his katons, else the katon he fired in *this panel* would be far more powerful than madara's yet that's not implied.


It is Obito's eye (which is more than covered by the scan) that generates swirly effects. 

There is no swirly effect present, hence Kamui was not used. Kamui is not a necessity for Bakufu Ranbu, its merely used to aid it in creating a vortex, an entirely different formation against Naruto than the one he unleashed on the Alliance.

There's also the heavy implication that Obito and Madara acted identically and cohesively — that is, they unleashed their Katons and _then_ activated their dojutsu, firing off weapons.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 3, 2014)

> Deidara's not slow at all, but there's probably no point in explaining to you for the billionth time that Sai is not the only shinobi Deidara has ever faced or that he's never had a problem reacting to shinobi much faster than Sai (e.g., Sasuke, Oonoki, and Gai).


He's slower than Obito by a significant margin, blitzed by Sai in plain sight on a bird hovering at a distance is a disgustingly pathetic feat. What's worse is he literally drew and summoned a bird before doing it, appeared behind them and drew another two figures, and there was still no reaction.

That's just his reaction speed. His foot speed is near featless, yet to blitz a living human being in existence. 



> That Katon is not even Obito's typical opener in a no-knowledge situation against a single opponent, while in character.


Indeed, but suggesting it wouldn't absolutely destroy Deidara is a ridiculous notion. He would be erased. 



> Kakashi and Gai weren't in peak condition at that point, either, and neither of them had to defend against the Katon by themselves. And I'm sure I don't need to remind you who ended up kicking Obito's arse in his own world.


Kakashi and Gai have been fighting through the entire war- Gai just entered the 8th gate and shit on Judara- Kakashi helped him do it.

They were in better shape during that stage of the war than before they performed the above feats. 

You have no argument. There is absolutely no logic that would suggest Deidara avoiding that katon from this distance.


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## ARGUS (Jun 3, 2014)

Obito wins this low diff

-Deidara has no shot whatsover to even stand a chance here,,, 
-Obito phases through all of his clay bomb based attacks perfectly,,,,
-None of Deidaras bomb based attacks last longer tahn 5 minutes to overcome the limit for kamui,,,
-Deidara lacks the reaction feats to counter attack Tobi 
-Deidara has literally no shot of evading the kamui warp,,,,as the most he can do is blow himself up when obito is attempting to warp him


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## ueharakk (Jun 4, 2014)

Kai said:


> Kamui is used with Bakufu Ranbu to create more of a vortex formation. It's not required for the jutsu.


What is that even based on?  If what you say about bakufu ranbu is true, it already does swirl into a vortex, that's exactly what we saw when obito used in on the SA.



Kai said:


> Yes you do see a swirl effect of the shuriken coming out of Obito's eye.
> 
> There is always swirl effects when Obito unleashes Kamui or expels objects from the dimension. That is not the case when Obito unleashes his Bakufu Ranbu on the Alliance.


But like i showed with that panel, it's not always present.  Kishi already showed us bakufu ranbu is a katon combined with kamui, thus he doesn't need to show us the vortex.



Kai said:


> I was responding to an existing assertion which was yours.
> 
> You asserted Kamui must be used with Bakufu Ranbu, when Kishimoto has never once failed illustrating swirl effects when Obito uses Kamui to expel objects or the force from his eyes.


Irrelevant if you are responding to my assertion or just making an assertion of your own.  In order for your response to hold water, you'd have to logically concede those points that I just brought up, thus do you believe those points are true or more plausible than not?  

If Kishi explicitly shows us how a specific technique works, then he doesn't have to show us the entire process of its formation every time which explains why we don't need to see kamui activated in order to conclude it's being used.  That's further backed by the fact that we saw kamui is the thing that gives bakufu ranbu its swirl, and not the technique itself when it was first used, and coincidentally we see bakufu ranbuu with the exact same swirl as when it was used with kamui.  The evidence for bakufu ranbu needing kamui is overwhelming.




Kai said:


> It is Obito's eye (which is more than covered by the scan) that generates swirly effects.
> 
> There is no swirly effect present, hence Kamui was not used. Kamui is not a necessity for Bakufu Ranbu, its merely used to aid it in creating a vortex, an entirely different formation against Naruto than the one he unleashed on the Alliance.


The swirly effect is illustrated in the katon itself, which we've seen earlier doesn't swirl on its own and needs kamui to achieve that.  Think about it, if bakufu ranbu swirled on its own, why even use kamui with it?  What does the 'vortex' even do asside from change the asthetic appearance of the technique?




Kai said:


> There's also the heavy implication that Obito and Madara acted identically and cohesively ? that is, they unleashed their Katons and _then_ activated their dojutsu, firing off weapons.


The implications are that Obito and Madara fired off attacks on the same level.  Obito needed to use kamui in order for his katon to reach madara's level, just like he needed to fire far more weapons in order for his attack to be the equivalent of madaras.


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## Kai (Jun 4, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> What is that even based on?  If what you say about bakufu ranbu is true, it already does swirl into a vortex, that's exactly what we saw when obito used in on the SA.


How is this at all the same?




			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> But like i showed with that panel, it's not always present.  Kishi already showed us bakufu ranbu is a katon combined with kamui, thus he doesn't need to show us the vortex.


It is always present. My scan with the shuriken is in fact a page before the one you posted, and there is no lack of swirly effect when Obito unleashes them from his eyes.

No, Kishi has shown Bakufu Ranbu is a Katon that _can_ be combined with Kamui if the user so chooses.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> If Kishi explicitly shows us how a specific technique works, then he doesn't have to show us the entire process of its formation every time which explains why we don't need to see kamui activated in order to conclude it's being used.  That's further backed by the fact that we saw kamui is the thing that gives bakufu ranbu its swirl, and not the technique itself when it was first used, and coincidentally we see bakufu ranbuu with the exact same swirl as when it was used with kamui.  The evidence for bakufu ranbu needing kamui is overwhelming.


Just because A happens and B happens by no means infers A caused B or A and B are even related. That's what, causation fallacy?

Bakufu Ranbu is Fire Release, not a S/T and Fire Release technique. The evidence is overwhelming for Kamui *aiding* the *formation* of the Katon to that of a vortex, and not being required for the jutsu.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> The swirly effect is illustrated in the katon itself, which we've seen earlier doesn't swirl on its own and needs kamui to achieve that.  Think about it, if bakufu ranbu swirled on its own, why even use kamui with it?  What does the 'vortex' even do asside from change the asthetic appearance of the technique?


The formation is completely different - it takes on that of a vortex.

I'll take it you concede Obito using Kamui when there's absolutely no swirly effect coming from his eye when he unleashes Bakufu Ranbu on the Alliance.



			
				ueharakk said:
			
		

> The implications are that Obito and Madara fired off attacks on the same level.  Obito needed to use kamui in order for his katon to reach madara's level, just like he needed to fire far more weapons in order for his attack to be the equivalent of madaras.


Please ueharakk. Just look at these two panels.



Everything points to Kamui aiding formation and not being required for the technique. Kishi has never failed in illustrating Kamui swirly effects expelling from Obito's eye with his techniques before, unlike you who have failed to provide a single example of when the opposite has taken place.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 4, 2014)

I was expecting Obito with phasing restricted to be used here. What is this?



Nikushimi said:


> So nobody thinks Deidara could get Obito to warp away a bomb, then detonate it on him the next time he fazes with Kamui?


First of all - why would Obito warp bombs inside? Did you forget that he becomes solid while doing so? Moreover - Obito was certain that warping Minato inside would stop him from going back with Hiraishin. Minato himself implied the same when he bet everything on a speed contest. Why would Deidara still retain control over C# when every possible link between Kamui-world and normal dimension is implied to be severed? Sneaking in Jibaku Bunshin should work but again - why would Obito decide to warp bunshins when he can easily kill them avoiding that split-time solidness? 

On actual match - Obito's range game is too overwhelming for Deidara. His defense even with knowledge is also too much(For Dei alone at least, as a teammate Deidara is a decent pick to try and counter Kamui). Sharingan counters C4. You can't be a good boy with threads like this one, Niku.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 4, 2014)

Deidara already got a main part of his offense ripped apart by sharingan before(Landmines, C4) adding a broken defense like kamui to the mix just disintegrates it. 

Obito's has enough going in his favor for him like giant ninja tools, giant katons and his ability to be pretty much everywhere and away from danger with kamui. Besides a sneak C4(though it is obvious in set-up and obito was even able to get sasuke a second before jinton went off his warping speed is beyond this) has nothing to threaten obito. Deidara gonna slip up soon and get warped.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2014)

Deidara still isn't beating Obito. Obito will suck him on up to back land or he'll just chose to kill Deidara with his bag of tricks.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jun 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> So nobody thinks Deidara could get Obito to warp away a bomb, then detonate it on him the next time he fazes with Kamui?
> 
> C1 probably wouldn't be powerful enough to do the trick, but if he can get Obito to warp C3 or C4, or even just a suicide bomb clone, then Deidara might be able to kill or at least badly injure him



This is his only option, but just using a bomb would never work because a) Obito wouldn't warp a bomb and b) Deidara couldn't control the bomb in Kamui space. He would need a clone, and he would need a C3 or C4 clone if he wanted to be sure of catching Obito even if he moved a lot. But I don't think that would work either because I doubt a non Kage or Mokuton or Kisei Bunshin could be maintained across dimensions.


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