# Ace & Jozu vs Fujitora



## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2015)

Location: Alabasta
Knowledge: The duo have full, Fuji knows about the Mera
Mindset: IC

Would Fuji need extreme-diff to beat these two?


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## Shanks (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace has been fairly underestimated around here, but I recommend he’s give or take current Luffy’s level. 

Dou should pull out a win, with this scaling.

The people who think Ace is Jimbie’s level or some shit will obviouisly say Ace is a none factor and they lose mid to high dif.


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## barreltheif (Nov 11, 2015)

They give him high diff, but I don't think it'll be extreme.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2015)

I find Ace hard to gauge honestly, if I had to guess; I'd put him either equal to or slightly above Zoro. Somewhere in that range; Zoro vs Ace would be an extreme-diff fight in my eyes. The duo should give at the very least; high difficulty before going down. They might even be able to pull out a win if Ace can distract Fuji enough for Jozu to land some good, solid hits.



Bernkastel said:


> DR Sabo gives high(low)...current Sabo certainly gives more but not sure by what marigin.
> I would say high(mid)-high(high) propably.
> I view Ace close to Zoro giving very high diff to him so he should give low(high) diff to Fujitora.
> 
> So the duo could edge it out with extreme diff.



I hope if a Blackbeard vs Revo's skirmish does happen, that we get to see a brief fight between Kuzan and Sabo. Those two clashing would make for some great panels.


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## Bernkastel (Nov 11, 2015)

Wtf i read Ace and Sabo...

Fujitora high diffs the duo.


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## TheWiggian (Nov 11, 2015)

Fuji high (low) diffs, seeing how Sabo couldn't do much against Issho, a weaker version will be rather useless.


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## Shanks (Nov 11, 2015)

TheWiggian said:


> Fuji high (low) diffs, seeing how Sabo couldn't do much against Issho, a weaker version will be rather useless.



And all Fuji did was make Sabo's dick hard when Fuji got serious.


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## Finalbeta (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace gets meteor fisted


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## TheWiggian (Nov 11, 2015)

Josh said:


> And all Fuji did was make Sabo's dick hard when Fuji got serious.



Stop denying it, Sabo set a big part of a city aflame and still couldn't do much against Issho. A weaker version of him won't do shit to Fuji.


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## Shanks (Nov 11, 2015)

You haven't told me what else Fuji did to Sabo besides making his dick hard


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## RileyD (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace is weaker than Sabo who is weaker than Luffy. Jozu is around the same level. 2vs1 would lose to G4 Luffy let alone Fujitora.


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## gold ace (Nov 11, 2015)

Underestimation of Ace is disgusting. The duo pulls out a win high-extreme Diff.


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## RileyD (Nov 11, 2015)

gold ace said:


> Underestimation of Ace is disgusting. The duo pulls out a win high-extreme Diff.



Ace is pre-skip Sabo who was clearly inferior to Fujitora post skip.
Joz got one shot by Doflamingo and Aokiji.


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## Bernkastel (Nov 11, 2015)

RileyD said:


> Ace is pre-skip Sabo who was clearly inferior to Fujitora post skip.
> Joz got one shot by Doflamingo and Aokiji.



When did DD one-shot Jozu?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace was garbage to top tiers. Issho still wins.


Josh said:


> Ace has been fairly underestimated around here, but I recommend he’s give or take current Luffy’s level.
> 
> Dou should pull out a win, with this scaling.
> 
> The people who think Ace is Jimbie’s level or some shit will obviouisly say Ace is a none factor and they lose mid to high dif.


Did you miss the part where a half faced Whitebeard stomped the man who beat Ace?


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## ~M~ (Nov 11, 2015)

Jozu is dead weight, can't do shit to a guy who controls gravity on a whim 

Ace is a threat but not admiral level 

This battle is between mid(high) and high(low)


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## TheWiggian (Nov 11, 2015)

Josh said:


> You haven't told me what else Fuji did to Sabo besides making his dick hard



Fuji pulled out his massive cock those girth and lenght surpassed Sabo's by far. After that Sabo's little clitty became limp and Issho slapped him with his huge prick around the town so that everyone could see who the alpha male is.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace & Jozu high diffs.


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## ~M~ (Nov 11, 2015)

Seriously 

Someone explain to me what Jozu is going to do in this battle


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## Sumu (Nov 11, 2015)

Fuji lower end of high diff.


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## Datassassin (Nov 11, 2015)

Fujitora with mid diff; Jozu isn't well-suited to fight Fujitora and Ace is far out of his depth. Fujitora's biggest issue with Ace is that he can't kill him with meteors/gravity (per logia body) so he's going to have to bother gutting him with his blade.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

em senpai said:


> Someone explain to me what Jozu is going to do in this battle



Punch his face.


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## Datassassin (Nov 11, 2015)

Jozu can't exactly do much if Fujitora flies up into the air, eats ramen and rains down meteor after meteor. In the given setting of Arabasta Jozu would have nothing worthwhile to even throw, not that Fujitora wouldn't just send it back with gravity anyway. If Fujitora doesn't want to be hit by Jozu he just won't be.


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## ~M~ (Nov 11, 2015)

How the HELL is jozu going to get close to Fujitora. He can push the gravity sideways, push jozu into the ground, or fucking fly 

Ace has flames at least which aren't affected by gravity (I mean in the strictest sense they are but I doubt the physics of that will come into play)


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Nov 11, 2015)

em senpai said:


> How the HELL is jozu going to get close to Fujitora. He can push the gravity sideways, push jozu into the ground, or fucking fly
> 
> Ace has flames at least which aren't affected by gravity (I mean in the strictest sense they are but I doubt the physics of that will come into play)



ayy lmao fuji confirmed stronkest person, who can even touch the guy when everyone will be pushed into the ground


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## ~M~ (Nov 11, 2015)

Thas what I would do if I were him 

Some people could get around it 

Luffy could stretch, logia just use their elements, kizaru says fuck gravity

But yeah get rekt (most)paramicia and zohan


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Stalemate

Both Ace and Jozu seemed to be low admiral level.

Jozu isn't just strong, he's incredibly fast. If he initiates the attack, he can pressure Fujitora while Ace bombards with fire attacks. Jozu can take care of the meteors no problem. Gravity pressure won't work on Ace since he's a logia, maybe Jozu could even overpower it with raw physical strength. Jozu should be able to handle his gravity slash, since he already showed he could deflect a slash from the greatest swordsman in the world. Although the mechanics of the slashes are different, his diamond form should protect him from the crushing pressure, just like it protected him from the force of that slash.

Problem is, we haven't seen Fujitora go all out yet. So far I'm leaning that he's weaker than any of the original three admirals, so it'd be a fight between two low admiral levels against a mid admiral level.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Both Ace and Jozu seemed to be low admiral level.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace wank has been something else as of late.
How can anyone compare him to Jozu, let alone an admiral?


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Consider Aokiji, Kizaru and Akainu as high admiral level.

Fujitora as mid admiral level.

Someone like current Luffy and Law to be low admiral level

Then it's not that weird to say that Ace and Diamond Jozu are in the same tier as current Luffy. Jozu was shown he could at least somewhat fight with Aokiji. Ace fought pretty equally with pre-ts Blackbeard, and stalemated Jinbe before he even joined the whitebeard pirates and became much stronger.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

Jozu is highly underrated in the forum, especially since he always portrayed as equal to Marco, even in the flashbacks.



The only Whitebeard pirate except for Marco who take direct order from Whitebeard himself in the war.



Same when Shanks came to Moby Dick...


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ace fought pretty equally with pre-ts Blackbeard



*Spoiler*: __


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> *Spoiler*: __



What's that supposed to mean ? All I see Whitebeard is failing to K.O Blackbeard and then they gangbang kill Whitebeard with ease. Even Whitebeard himself admits that he only manages to do that because of Teach's overconfidence... If not, Whitebeard couldn't even do that.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> *Spoiler*: __



Is that supposed to show Blackbeard as a weakling or something? WB crushed Akainu as well.

Pre-ts Blackbeard could take current Luffy as well, albeit probably without him using G4.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Is that supposed to show Blackbeard as a weakling or something?


Yup, which means Ace was fodder to top tiers too.


Vivo Diez said:


> WB crushed Akainu as well.


I wasn't aware that losing half your brain even after getting a freeshot means that you "crushed" someone...


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## Cormag (Nov 11, 2015)

ace is probably a nonfactor here or close to it, however current jozu pushes fujitora to extreme-diff because his portrayal is horrendous, especially since this is IC.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Yup, which means Ace was fodder to top tiers too.
> 
> I wasn't aware that losing half your brain even after getting a freeshot means that you "crushed" someone...



Sure m8, WB was on a tier of his own.

You're the one that brought up the argument that anyone WB crushes is a weakling. I'm not even saying Blackbeard was anywhere on Akainu's level, but if you bring up the half his brain argument, I could say that Blackbeards bullet literally immobilized him from moving further, while losing half his head didn't seem like that much of a big deal 

Blackbeard even easily survived a quake to the face, while Akainu was taken out of action for a bit just from a quake punch.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Whitebeard was fodderizing Ace in his sleep, and I doubt the latter had substantial growth since that point. And losing half a head was quite the deal, seeing he would died regardless of Teach's interference.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Sure m8, WB was on a tier of his own.
> 
> You're the one that brought up the argument that anyone WB crushes is a weakling.


A Whitebeard with half his face gone and had his DF nullified still manhandled Blackbeard, who then called for his crew to come save him. There's no way Blackbeard came out of that looking good.


Vivo Diez said:


> I'm not even saying Blackbeard was anywhere on Akainu's level, but if you bring up the half his brain argument, *I could say that Blackbeards bullet literally immobilized him from moving further, while losing half his head didn't seem like that much of a big deal*


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## savior2005 (Nov 11, 2015)

fuji wins mid-high (low) diff.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Whitebeard was fodderizing Ace in his sleep, and I doubt the latter had substantial growth since that point. And losing half a head was quite the deal, seeing he would died regardless of Teach's interference.



Can you smell that? I smell some good 'ol bias 

I'm sure he didn't get any stronger while being in his prime on the strongest crew ship in the world, fighting whole crews by himself and making them surrender and join Whitebeard as his ally.  Then eventually earn his way to become the 2nd division commander.

Nope, didn't become stronger at all.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> A Whitebeard with half his face gone and had his DF nullified still manhandled Blackbeard, who then called for his crew to come save him. There's no way Blackbeard came out of that looking good.



He came out of that looking good because he a tanked an eartquake to the face while having a devil fruit that makes him feel more pain than a regular person.

He came out looking even better when he tanked Sengokus attacks as well.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Can you smell that? I smell some good 'ol bias
> 
> I'm sure he didn't get any stronger while being in his prime on the strongest crew ship in the world, fighting whole crews by himself and making them surrender and join Whitebeard as his ally.  Then eventually earn his way to become the 2nd division commander.
> 
> Nope, didn't become stronger at all.



Earning his way when most of the commanders are shit?
Marco, Jozu and Vista are the only commanders with notable strength. 

Becoming a commander isn't the greatest indicator of strength... Teach could have became commander of second division before he even got Yami, and I doubt he's anything particularly special without a fruit.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

If Beckman is capable of stopping Kizaru with his pistol, then hell why not Blackbeard isn't the same against Whitebeard ?



King Itachi said:


> And losing half a head was quite the deal, seeing he would died regardless of Teach's interference.



Do you think this looks like a dying person to you ?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Is this looks like a dying person to you ?



Are you really going to argue that Whitebeard could have survived from those injuries?


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Earning his way when most of the commanders are shit?
> Marco, Jozu and Vista are the only commanders with notable strength.
> 
> Becoming a commander isn't the greatest indicator of strength... Teach could have became commander of second division before he even got Yami, and I doubt he's anything particularly special without a fruit.





> Can you smell that? I smell some good 'ol bias



Ye man, they're so shit, even though the 10th commander of Whitebeards crew was fighting with Gekko Morriah. 7th division was attacking Kizaru.

They're all so shit.

Marco, Jozu and Vista. Those are the top ones that were still left and were given the most screen time because they were the strongest out of the ones left. Thatch was dead and Ace was imprisoned. And going by shoenen logic and the feats displayed, the division commanders were clearly ranked in terms of their power.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> He came out of that looking good because he a tanked an eartquake to the face while having a devil fruit that makes him feel more pain than a regular person.
> 
> He came out looking even better when he tanked Sengokus attacks as well.


Stop making up excuses. Blackbeard got stomped by a Whitebeard who was literally on death's door. He'd do even worse against fresh top tiers and Ace would get similar treatment.


Vivo Diez said:


> And going by shoenen logic and the feats displayed, the division commanders were clearly ranked in terms of their power.


No they weren't. For example, Jozu is the 3rd Commander while Ace is the 2nd, yet Jozu would wreck Ace with ease.

OT: all Issho has to do is slice off Ace's head, then it's pretty much a battle between him and Jozu, which Issho wins after a good fight.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ye man, they're so shit, even though the 10th commander of Whitebeards crew was fighting with Gekko Morriah. 7th division was attacking Kizaru.
> 
> They're all so shit.
> 
> Marco, Jozu and Vista. Those are the top ones that were still left and were given the most screen time because they were the strongest out of the ones left. Thatch was dead and Ace was imprisoned. And going by shoenen logic and the feats displayed, the division commanders were clearly ranked in terms of their power.



Going by the feats displayed, Ace hasn't shown anything that puts him above Jozu or Vista. And Moriah is arguably the weakest Shichibukai besides Buggy. WG even ordered Doflamingo to dispose of him.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Stop making up excuses. Blackbeard got stomped by a Whitebeard who was literally on death's door. He'd do even worse against fresh top tiers and Ace would get similar treatment.
> 
> OT: all Issho has to do is slice off Ace's head, then it's pretty much a battle between him and Jozu, which Issho wins after a good fight.



You're comparing Blachbeard going up against the strongest character at that point. Like that's a good indication of power. I'm providing facts that Whitebeard couldn't kill Blackbeard with a direct quake to the head.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Are you really going to argue that Whitebeard could have survived from those injuries?



Whitebeard wasn't going to survive the war, ''all war from beginning'', you're acting like Akainu did the all job, while after Squardo's stab and his health condition even before that shows that he couldn't survive the war whichever  Akainu's meigou or not...

This is before the Akainu fight, Whitebeard was already planning on dying in Marineford with sinking the all island with himself.



After this point, wounding him is meaningless, killing him is the main event.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Moriah is arguably the weakest Shichibukai besides Buggy. WG even ordered Doflamingo to dispose of him.



They ordered to dispose of him because he got his ass beaten by Luffy and the WG didn't want the news of the shichibukai getting beaten to go out.

I'm not arguing  that he wasn't the weakest Shichibukai. I'm saying the 10th Commander of Whitebeards army was on the level of the weakest Shichibukai. That's pretty damn strong for the 10th commander.



King Itachi said:


> Going by the feats displayed, Ace hasn't shown anything that puts him above Jozu or Vista



Mihawk hasn't shown feats to support the claim that he's the greatest swordsman, but it's been stated in the manga over and over again that he is.

Also, all you've seen is Ace go out against someone who could cancel out all of his attacks and devil fruit powers. We know he was on the level of a shichibukai such as Jinbe, even before joining the Whitebeard crew. He definitely got stronger during his stay with Whitebeard, it wouldn't make sense for him not to.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Whitebeard wasn't survive the all war, you're acting like Akainu did the all job, while after Squardo's stab and his health condition even before that shows that he couldn't survive the war wherever Akainu's meigou or not...



The stab from Squardo jumpstarted Whitebeard's downfall, but it definitely wasn't the main contributor. Akainu's attacks were definitely going to kill him; Squardo's stab is arguable.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> They ordered to dispose of him because he got his ass beaten by Luffy and the WG didn't want the news of the shichibukai getting beaten to go out.
> 
> I'm not arguing  that he wasn't the weakest Shichibukai. I'm saying the 10th Commander of Whitebeards army was on the level of the weakest Shichibukai. That's pretty damn strong for the 10th commander.



Wasn't Jinbei besting Moriah? Akainu was shitting on Jinbei and also fodderized Curiel.



> Mihawk hasn't shown feats to support the claim that he's the greatest swordsman, but it's been stated in the manga over and over again that he is.



Having his slash stopped by someone with a natural advantage over swordsmen and getting stalled by Whitebeard Pirate's greatest swordsman shouldn't be ways to downplay him...



> Also, all you've seen is Ace go out against someone who could cancel out all of his attacks and devil fruit powers. We know he was on the level of a shichibukai such as Jinbe, even before joining the Whitebeard crew. He definitely got stronger during his stay with Whitebeard, it wouldn't make sense for him not to.



And do you remember what Akainu did to fucking Jinbei?
Jinbei doesn't even have a disadvantage against him, either. 

Ace's increase in strength since he joined WB - if that's even notable - is questionable at best. However, I doubt he's twice as strong as Jinbei, who is more or less a fodder compared to Akainu. If Marco didn't save his ass, he would have been cooked fish.

What's your point regarding Aokiji canceling Ace's attack? 
Ace canceled his attack, as well. Neither of them were at the disadvantage.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

And people really believes someone at least on Jinbe level wouldn't make difference in this fight ? Someone who can sink 5 ships with his Hiken ? Or someone who can stop Aokiji's attack ?

Even Shanks acknowledges that ''Ace is strong'' ...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> And people really believes someone at least on Jinbe level wouldn't make difference in this fight ? Someone who can sink 5 ships with his Hiken ? Or someone who can stop Aokiji's attack ?
> 
> Even Shanks acknowledges that ''Ace is strong'' ...



Jinbei's feats are very weak against Akainu, and he needed to get saved by Marco.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> And do you remember what Akainu did to fucking Jinbei?
> Jinbei doesn't even have a disadvantage against him, either.



He did when he was trying to be a meat shield for Luffy, and couldn't even protect himself... Jinbe is already showed us he can even stop Akainu's attacks head on. 



Someone who is strong enough to stop Wadatsumi's punch and who can tank G2 Luffy's attack casually.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> The stab from Squardo jumpstarted Whitebeard's downfall, but it definitely wasn't the main contributor. Akainu's attacks were definitely going to kill him; Squardo's stab is arguable.



As I've shown in my previous post, Wb was already planning on dying in Marineford, even before the Akainu fight, Akainu wounded someone who is going to die in that war and get K.O by it, not something impressive if he could've killed Wb directly then it would be something.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> He did when he was trying to be a meat shield for Luffy, and couldn't even protect himself... Jinbe is already showed us he can even stop Akainu's attacks head on.



Stopping Akainu's attacks at what cost? Exactly.
He accomplished nothing except delaying the inevitable. Akainu even tells him that he is wasting his time and should know how powerful he is. What we see is Marco saving him once the seastone cuffs were removed. If Marco was even a little bit slower, Jinbei and Luffy would have been dead.



> Someone who is strong enough to stop Wadatsumi's punch and who can tank G2 Luffy's attack casually.



...which are nothing in front of top tiers.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> As I've shown in my previous post, Wb was already planning on dying in Marineford, even before the Akainu fight, Akainu wounded someone who is going to die in that war and get K.O by it, not something impressive if he could've killed Wb directly then it would be something.



He planned to die at Marineford, but it still doesn't make it any less valid that the fight between them is simply just a wash. Both of them landed a cheapshot at some point. Falling into the crack did save Akainu in that instance... However, Whitebeard never would have survived with those injuries, and that's canon right there. Whitebeard showed that he could live a bit longer to possibly wreak more havoc, but that's about all he can do.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Wasn't Jinbei besting Moriah? Akainu was shitting on Jinbei and also fodderized Curiel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow, I never argued about Ace or Jinbe being on the level of Akainu.

Like I said,

Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru high admiral level

Fujitora mid admiral level

Ace low admiral level

Ace stoppped Aokiji's attack head on. He showed that he could tango with an admiral like Jozu and Marco did.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> You're comparing Blachbeard going up against the strongest character at that point.


I'm supposed to believe that a half dead Whitebeard was stronger than top tiers like the Admirals or even Old Rayleigh?


Vivo Diez said:


> Ace stoppped Aokiji's attack head on.


Daz Bones also blocked an attack from a top tier. Two seconds later, he was choking on his own blood. Blocking *one* attack from a non-serious Admiral doesn't mean much.

Btw, how is Ace going to help Jozu here? Which he can't.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> I'm supposed to believe that a half dead Whitebeard was stronger than top tiers like the Admirals or even Old Rayleigh?
> 
> Daz Bones also blocked an attack from a top tier. Two seconds later, he was choking on his own blood. Blocking *one* attack from a non-serious Admiral doesn't mean much.
> 
> Btw, how is Ace going to help Jozu here? Which he can't.



Yet people use that same argument to say that Vista is the same level as Mihawk because they clashed once, I guess it's valid whenever it suits one's argument .

Daz Bones barely blocked a single slash from Mihawk. Both Ace and Aokiji used a named attack at each other, which gives it more significance than just a casual attack. And if I remember correctly the marines were very surprised that Ace managed to make Aokijis ice disappear in an instant, or something along those lines?

Ace's fight with Fujitora would resemble Sabo vs Fujitora, which came to stalemate. Add Jozu to the mix and maybe Fujitora putting more effort, Ace probably being slightly weaker than Sabo, and you've got yourself another stalemate.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ace's fight with Fujitora would resemble Sabo vs Fujitora, which came to stalemate.





Vivo Diez said:


> Add Jozu to the mix and maybe Fujitora putting more effort, and you've got yourself a stalemate.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ace stoppped Aokiji's attack head on. He showed that he could tango with an admiral like Jozu and Marco did.



He didn't. Marco/Jozu can fight the admirals for extended periods of time and only got taken out with distractions. Ace got placed against someone he matches up very well against. Other than that, he's got no feats with high-level opponents and got defeated by Yami Teach with mid-high difficulty. Any of the admirals can defeat Yami Teach with around mid-diff if he doesn't fuck around.

Ace isn't anywhere close to the admirals. Not sure why you're speaking of him in the same breath as Marco/Jozu, who are Whitebeard's right hand and left hand


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace being just slightly weaker than MMnM Sabo?


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> He didn't. Marco/Jozu can fight the admirals for extended periods of time and only got taken out with distractions. Ace got placed against someone he matches up very well against. Other than that, he's got no feats with high-level opponents and got defeated by Yami Teach with mid-high difficulty. Any of the admirals can defeat Yami Teach with around mid-diff if he doesn't fuck around.
> 
> Ace isn't anywhere close to the admirals. Not sure why you're speaking of him in the same breath as Marco/Jozu, who are Whitebeard's right hand and left hand



Aokiji fought Akainu for forever, even though Akainu had an even bigger elemental advantage than Ace, so that argument is barely valid.

Only time Jozu managed to land a hit on Aokiji was when Aokiji was pre-occupied. Then when Jozu got frozen, he couldn't even break the ice. Don't put Jozu on a highter tier than Ace by any means.

If you're saying admirals need mid diff to defeat Yami Teach, that makes him a high level opponent right there. Meaning Ace fighting Bleackbeard on pretty equal terms makes Ace a high level opponent. Thanks for proving my point.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Aokiji fought Akainu for forever, even though Akainu had an even bigger elemental advantage than Ace, so that argument is barely valid.
> 
> Only time Jozu managed to land a hit on Aokiji was when Aokiji was pre-occupied. Then when Jozu got frozen, he couldn't even break the ice. Don't put Jozu on a bigger tier than Ace.
> 
> If you're saying admirals need mid diff to defeat Yami Teach, that makes him a high level opponent right there. Meaning Ace fighting on pretty equal terms makes Ace a high level opponent. Thanks for proving my point.



Don't think the advantage was that great, even if there was one... Some posters even made me change my mind about the situation. Oda portrayed Akainu and Aokiji as nigh equals. On Punk Hazard, the island was equally split with their respective elements, with a puddle sitting in the middle of them.

And Jozu's feat of damaging Aokiji is still better than anything Ace has done, even if he blindsided him. Jozu couldn't break the ice because of deep freeze; it's the same attack used on Saul. Did you expect anything different when he's watching his best friend get taken down?

Ace didn't fight on equal terms with Yami Teach, either. Teach was offering him a place in his crew and held back until the last point. Yami devoured Entei and won the fight once Teach got serious.


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## Kaiser (Nov 11, 2015)

I also think Ace is underestimated. He should be able to give a mid diff fight to an admiral given his portrayal so far. Jozu will obviously be the heavy hitter though allowing the team to win


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> *Don't think the advantage was that great, even if there was one... Some posters even made me change my mind about the situation. Oda portrayed Akainu and Aokiji as nigh equals. On Punk Hazard, the island was equally split with their respective elements, with a puddle sitting in the middle of them.*
> 
> And Jozu's feat of damaging Aokiji is still better than anything Ace has done, even if he blindsided him. Jozu couldn't break the ice because of deep freeze; it's the same attack used on Saul. Did you expect anything different when he's watching his best friend get taken down?
> 
> Ace didn't fight on equal terms with Yami Teach, either. Teach was offering him a place in his crew and held back until the last point. Yami devoured Entei and won the fight once Teach got serious.



  

That's what I was fucking saying. You said Ace had an elemental advantage over Aokiji. I'm saying Akainu had an even greater elemental advantage over Aokiji than Ace did, yet that didn't matter all that much in their fight in the end. You're just destroying your own argument.

And exactly, Jozu blindsided Aokiji and had a chance to fight him, whereas Ace just clashed with a single attack and completely negated Aokijis attack head on.

Aokiji used the freezing attack on Doflamingo later and he broke free easily.

And Ace and Teach were fighting equally. The panel of their powers clashing on the island proves it.

*Spoiler*: __ 








It's just Teach had the advantage of his power literally cancelling out Ace's power.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace is fast enough to stab Teach in the middle of Dark Vortex pulling, and he is also fast enough to stop any attack from Aokiji, he is also faster than Akainu due to saving Luffy from a far distance despite Akainu was closer to Luffy, but *Akainu's devil fruit advantage* beat Ace, not Akainu's superior fighting skills.



Don't forget that same Aokiji is equal to Akainu, and he was going to stab MF Whitebeard if not for Jozu's interfere.





Jigen said:


> Daz Bones also blocked an attack from a top tier. Two seconds later, he was choking on his own blood. Blocking *one* attack from a non-serious Admiral doesn't mean much.
> 
> Btw, how is Ace going to help Jozu here? Which he can't.



And then Daz gets K.O, I didn't see Aokiji was beating Ace after that clash. And Mihawk isn't even admiral level...

Aokiji easily stomped Luffy before, and Marco saved him, if Aokiji was capable of doing the same with ease, he could.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> That's what I was fucking saying. You said Ace had an elemental advantage over Aokiji. I'm saying Akainu had an even greater elemental advantage over Aokiji than Ace did, yet that didn't matter all that much in their fight in the end. You're just destroying your own argument.



I'm not saying Ace had an elemental advantage over Aokiji. Rather, I think he was matched up very well, in the sense that he was placed against someone he seemingly looks good against - due to the way fire and ice stack up with each other - even though they're just canceled out. The same thing goes for Aokiji. It's not like he can fodderize Ace in one second through their clash, considering the way their powers stack up. He'd need to get into CQC and fight him that way.



> And exactly, Jozu blindsided Aokiji and had a chance to fight him, whereas Ace just clashed with a single attack and completely negated Aokijis attack head on.



Aokiji also canceled out Ace's attack, so I don't see your point.



> Aokiji used the freezing attack on Doflamingo later and he broke free easily.



Not the same attack. Aokiji actually made physical contact with Jozu. Doflamingo broke away from the opposite and wasn't facing an admiral with the intent to kill him.



> And Ace and Teach were fighting equally. The panel of their powers clashing in the island proves it.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



It doesn't. Yami devoured Ace's strongest attack and won him the fight. Darkness pulls in everything, as he had stated previously. He gave Ace one last chance to join him before Entei was used and even had the darkness travel around him when he was demonstrating the power.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> I'm not saying Ace had an elemental advantage over Aokiji. Rather, I think he was matched up very well, in the sense that he was placed against someone he seemingly looks good against - due to the way fire and ice stack up with each other - even though they're just canceled out. The same thing goes for Aokiji. It's not like he can fodderize Ace in one second through their clash, considering the way their powers stack up. He'd need to get into CQC and fight him that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



(1) We saw both of them clash with each other and cancel each other attacks out. All we saw of Jozu vs AokijI, was Jozu attacking a distracted Aokiji and Aokiji attacking and completely removing from the fight a distracted Jozu.

(2) That's your speculation regarding the power thing, both of them looked frozen in the exact same way. Aokiji had as much intent against Doflamingo as he did against Jozu. He just had no reason to pursue the fight further.

(3) Exactly, he devoured Ace's attack because of the hax of his fruit, but the manga portrayed both of their powers to be on the same large scale.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> (1) We saw both of them clash with each other and cancel each other attacks out. All we saw of Jozu vs AokijI, was Jozu attacking a distracted Aokiji and Aokiji attacking and completely removing from the fight a distracted Jozu.



Ace never attacked a distracted Aokiji. The two merely canceled out each other's respective attack initiated at the same time. Of course a mere punch isn't going to solo even a distracted admiral. I doubt even Prime Garp can one-shot Aokiji in the same circumstance. If anything, Jozu is the one with a disadvantage here. He's a defensive fighter and fighting against someone who is capable of completely bypassing his defense.



> (2) That's your speculation regarding the power thing. Aokiji had as much intent against Doflamingo as he did against Jozu.



He stood there with hands in his pockets. How does that look serious to you?
It was emphasized that a distraction was needed to take down Jozu, and he used a different attack in that instance.



> (3) Exactly, he devoured Ace's attack because of the hax of his fruit, but the manga portrayed both of their powers to be on the same large scale.



How does the scale of their attacks relate to anything when Teach is just the stronger individual and overwhelmed Ace when he had gotten serious?


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## TheWiggian (Nov 11, 2015)

Ace low top tier? That's a new lvl of wank  

Ace on par with Marco and Jozu?


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> (1)Ace never attacked a distracted Aokiji. The two merely canceled out each other's respective attack initiated at the same time. Of course a mere punch isn't going to solo even a distracted admiral. I doubt even Prime Garp can one-shot Aokiji in the same circumstance. If anything Jozu is the one with a disadvantage here. He's a defensive fighter and fighting against someone who is capable of completely bypassing his defense.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



(1) Well a mere single attack was enough to completely take out Jozu from the fight in Aokiji's case.

(2) If we're talking about what was emphasized, then we can say it was emphasized that Ace and Aokiji were equals because their attacks were equally as strong 

(3) How is Blackbeard stronger besides having the fruit that negates Ace's devil fruit? The whole point of that panel with their powers colliding is to show that they were equals in terms of power, I don't know how else to explain it to you.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> (1) Well a mere single attack was enough to completely take out Jozu from the fight in Aokiji's case.



A mere attack with the advantage over Jozu's defense, similar to how Jozu holds the advantage over Mihawk's slashes. But I'm not sure why any of the advantages/disadvantages can elevate Ace to the level of fucking Marco or Jozu.



> (2) If we're talking about what was emphasized, then we can say it was emphasized that Ace and Aokiji were equals because their attacks were equally as strong



Not really. It's just one clash where both powers were canceled out.
That's why the battle between Akainu and Aokiji was so long. 

There's nothing like that present with Aokiji facing Jozu or Doflamingo, which aren't even comparable situations for the record.



> (3) How is Blackbeard stronger besides having the fruit that negates Ace's devil fruit? The whole point of that panel with their powers colliding is to show that they were equals in terms of power, I don't know how else to explain it to you.



Is scale the only indicator of power? 
Even if you want to exclude the scale of Yami for whatever reason, Teach nearly broke Ace's neck with one strike. The same guy took a bisento stab to the chest and got quaked by Whitebeard. Even Teach's physical abilities are better than Ace's.

And guess what? The admirals are better than Teach in that department.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> (0)A mere attack with the advantage over Jozu's defense, similar to how Jozu holds the advantage over Mihawk's slashes. But I'm not sure why any of the advantages/disadvantages can elevate Ace to the level of fucking Marco or Jozu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



(0) Because of the portrayal of his power when dealing with Aokiji and the fact that he was the second commander of the Whitebeard pirates, and Shanks, a yonko, admired his strength.

(1) That's your speculation that it affects how strong someone is frozen. Both Jozu and Doflamingo were turned into identical ice statues.

(2) Yes, and as he almost broke Aces neck, Ace threw two flaming spears into his chest. If the Yami Yami no mi only had the gravity aspect and wouldn't have devoured Ace's fire powers, Ace would have won or at least stale mated that fight.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> (0) Because of the portrayal of his power when dealing with Aokiji and the fact that he was the second commander of the Whitebeard pirates, and Shanks, a yonko, admired his strength.



Shanks must admire Rockstar's strength, too. 

Akainu is much stronger than Ace and would have had the same negation with Aokiji's attack. It doesn't mean shit from one clash alone when the elements stack up that way. The difference is, Teach can pull in anything with darkness, but that's not the only reason why he's above Ace. Akainu/Aokiji still defeat Teach - despite that advantage - as their stats and Haki are simply better. Tanking an island-splitting quake is something that would have killed Ace when Teach's chop had him in pain... Plus, it's likely that full-scale attacks from Akainu/Aokiji would completely overwhelm Teach's Yami, looking at the size of Punk Hazard compared to Banaro.



> (1) That's your speculation that it affects how strong someone is frozen. Both Jozu and Doflamingo were turned into identical ice statues.



They might have looked identical, but the manner in which both scenes occurred simply wasn't the same. Getting frozen by Aokiji standing idly with hands in his pockets and getting frozen by the same person - with a distraction alongside physical contact, mind you - aren't the same thing at all. There's also more evidence that Aokiji was serious when fighting Jozu compared to Doflamingo.



> (2) Yes, and as he almost broke Aces neck, Ace threw two flaming spears into his chest. If the Yami Yami no mi only had the gravity aspect and wouldn't have devoured Ace's fire powers, Ace would have won or at least stale mated that fight.



He wouldn't have. Teach's physical abilities are still much better, and he's also capable of enduring more. If you want to take away the gravitational aspect of the fruit, that doesn't make any sense. For the sake of your argument, however, the scales were portrayed to be equal. Even if we go by the scales alone, that only means Ace could have stalemated Teach in the firepower of their fruits at best. He still can't match Teach in the physical department, though. Teach being able to give an admiral mid-diff from what I stated before doesn't mean Ace can, as the former is stronger than him in most aspects.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Shanks must admire Rockstar's strength, too.
> 
> Akainu is much stronger than Ace and would have had the same negation with Aokiji's attack. It doesn't mean shit from one clash alone when the elements stack up that way. The difference is, Teach can pull in anything with darkness, but that's not the only reason why he's above Ace. Akainu/Aokiji still defeat Teach - despite that advantage - as their stats and Haki are simply better. Tanking an island-splitting quake is something that would have killed Ace when Teach's chop had him in pain... Plus, it's likely that full-scale attacks from Akainu/Aokiji would completely overwhelm Teach's Yami, looking at the size of Punk Hazard compared to Banaro.
> 
> ...



Ace fought Jinbe for five days and fought Whitebeard right after. He has beastly endurance and stamina. We never saw how much damage Ace suffered before he went down vs Teach.

Also I said leave the gravitational part m8,  only take away the fruits powers to devour devil fruit powers.

Ace is in the same tier as Blackbeard pre-ts. He's shown he can tango with an admiral like Jozu, he's been shown smashing through ships with his ability, he's responsible for the second division, and as we've seen, they're all ranked by strength. I don't know what more do you want m8.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> he's responsible for the second division, and as we've seen, they're all ranked by strength.


Oda already said in the SBS that the Commanders aren't ranked by strength.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Oda already said in the SBS that the Commanders aren't ranked by strength.



Yet in the portrayal they are.

Why aren't any of the other commanders stronger than Marco?

Why aren't any of the commanders below rank in Jozu stronger than Jozu?

Why was the main focus on Marco, then on Jozu, then on Vista, if they were not ranked by strength?


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## DavyChan (Nov 11, 2015)

so basically Jozu vs fujitora. I'd put them as very close. I'd say fuji should win extreme diff


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Yet in the portrayal they are.





Jigen said:


> No they weren't. For example, Jozu is the 3rd Commander while Ace is the 2nd, yet Jozu would wreck Ace with ease.


Perhaps you missed this from earlier?


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## Elite Uchiha (Nov 11, 2015)

Just lol @ anyone even claiming Ace is comparable to Post skip Sabo.


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## DavyChan (Nov 11, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Just lol @ anyone even claiming Ace is comparable to Post skip Sabo.



yeah.... ace is utter trash. he only had his position in the whitebeard thing bcuz of his potential. he never even went through the timeskip. he didn't even perform much better than luffy at the war arc (ofc i understand he wasnt in much of the fighting)


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> Perhaps you missed this from earlier?



Oh I missed your opinion on the situation and I was supposed to regard it as fact ?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Ace fought Jinbe for five days and fought Whitebeard right after. He has beastly endurance and stamina. We never saw how much damage Ace suffered before he went down vs Teach.



Ace didn't fight Whitebeard right after. He got fucking destroyed by him and was getting fodderized by WB in his sleep later on.

That's a good feat of stamina, but nothing suggests that Ace can tank either of Whitebeard's attacks that Teach took on. He's also weaker in physical strength and showed that he can barely endure Teach's physical strike.



> Also I said leave the gravitational part m8,  only take away the fruits powers to devour devil fruit powers.



...which still wouldn't give Ace the win, but okay.



> Ace is in the same tier as Blackbeard pre-ts. He's shown he can tango with an admiral like Jozu, he's been shown smashing through ships with his ability,



Marco and Jozu are experienced veterans of NW. Zoro and Sanji can smash through ships, too, but I don't even see that duo pushing Jozu anywhere.



> he's responsible for the second division, and as we've seen, they're all ranked by strength. I don't know what more do you want m8.



And, like Jigen had stated, Oda did say the commanders aren't ranked by strength. You can find that within the stickied thread with SBS in Ohara Library.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Oh I missed your opinion on the situation and I was supposed to regard it as fact?


If Yami Blackbeard could mid diff Ace, then Jozu would have flat out pulverized Ace.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> If Yami Blackbeard could mid diff Ace, then Jozu would have flat out pulverized Ace.



They're all different fighters though. Jozu could still beat Blackbeard without his fruit because of his insane physical strength. All of Aces offense and defense came from his fruit ability. Hey let's take away Luffy's gomu gomu no mi and see by how many tiers he drops. He's not challenging Doflamingo without any of his G2, G3 or G4 that's for sure.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> They're all different fighters though. Jozu could still beat Blackbeard without his fruit because of his insane physical strength. All of Aces offense and defense came from his fruit ability.


So? Punches from Yami Blackbeard still did a number on Ace. Jozu had enough strength to make an Admiral bleed in one hit. 2 + 2 = 4.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> he didn't even perform much better than luffy at the war arc



Don't be ridiculous, even Luffy himself says to Ace ''I will surpass you someday...'' in the war.



Jigen said:


> If Yami Blackbeard could mid diff Ace, then Jozu would have flat out pulverized Ace.



No he can't, first Jozu doesn't have darkness gravity to pull Ace himself, and second Teach's hit isn't so far from Jozu's hit, true Jozu might be a more powerful hitter, but Teach is at least physically more powerful than Jinbe and Burgess, scarred Shanks' eye, and killed Thatch, which is pretty good.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jigen said:


> So? Punches from Yami Blackbeard still did a number on Ace. Jozu had enough strength to make an Admiral bleed in one hit. 2 + 2 = 4.



You're missing the point 

I'm not arguing that Jozu isn't physically stronger than Ace, I even said that Jozu could win against Blackbeard because he is physically a monster. I'm saying Ace's power came from his devil fruit. That's why Teach was a horrible match up for him. Even someone like Marco would be fucked without his devil fruit, and most likely would have lost against Teach. Meanwhile Jozu could still be chugging ice bergs around.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> No he can't, first Jozu doesn't have darkness gravity to pull Ace himself, and second Teach's hit isn't so far from Jozu's hit, true Jozu might be a more powerful hitter, but Teach is at least physically more powerful than Jinbe and Burgess, scarred Shanks' eye, and killed Thatch, which is pretty good.



- He was fast enough to get the hit on Aokiji before the latter could react properly, intercept Mihawk's slash and also blitz Crocodile with Brilliant Punk.

- Arguably the best feat of physical strength in One Piece when he threw the iceberg. He's also physically stronger than a beast like Mihawk, which was proven when he threw the slash above him.

- Has CoA strong enough to get through Aokiji's Logia/Haki and damage him.


Jozu doesn't have to drag in Ace. He's physically on another level compared to Ace or Blackbeard. 

Are you saying Garp needs a power like that to wreck Ace or Yami Teach?


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> - He was fast enough to get the hit on Aokiji before the latter could react properly, intercept Mihawk's slash and also blitz Crocodile with Brilliant Punk.



Squard blitzed and stabbed Whitebeard in the back, it must mean he's fast as fuck guys


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Squard blitzed and stabbed Whitebeard in the back, it must mean he's fast as fuck guys



Marco also stated that it was due to Whitebeard's illness, saying he could have even avoided attacks from friendlies when he's healthy. So it's not the same thing.

Jozu is fast; Squardo isn't.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Marco also stated that it was due to Whitebeard's illness, saying he could have even avoided attacks from friendlies when he's healthy. So it's not the same thing.
> 
> Jozu is fast; Squardo isn't.



All the speed feats you've pointed out from Jozu were on either unsuspecting victims or fighters that were focused on someone else, so they're the same as Squard's in nature and can't be accurately used to gauge his speed.

Crocodile noted that Jozu is strong and fast, but when he was actually facing him, he was ready to defend himself once Jozu was charging at him for the second time, so Jozu was hardly blitzing him like you said.

Aokiji was also holding onto Whitebeards bisento and preparing to do a big attack, not exactly the best situation to evade an attack from(it's even shown that Aokiji did anticipate Jozu's attack before the attack happened, but he was midway attacking Whitebeard already, so that speed feat isn't all that great either).


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> - He was fast enough to get the hit on Aokiji before the latter could react properly, intercept Mihawk's slash and also blitz Crocodile with Brilliant Punk.
> 
> - Arguably the best feat of physical strength in One Piece when he threw the iceberg. He's also physically stronger than a beast like Mihawk, which was proven when he threw the slash above him.
> 
> ...



If you compare both Jozu's and Teach's hits on Crocodile & Ace, you can see that they aren't so far of from each other. Teach nearly broke Ace's neck, and Jozu almost going to one-shot Crocodile, but still Crocodile manages to resist it just like Ace did. And Ace is physically more powerful than Crocodile.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> All the speed feats you've pointed out from Jozu were on either unsuspecting victims or fighters that were focused on someone else, so they're the same as Squard's in nature and can't be accurately used to gauge his speed.
> 
> Crocodile noted that Jozu is strong and fast, but when he was actually facing him, he was ready to defend himself once Jozu was charging at him for the second time, so Jozu was hardly blitzing him like you said.
> 
> Aokiji was also holding onto Whitebeards bisento and preparing to do a big attack, not exactly the best situation to evade an attack from(it's even shown in the manga that Aokiji did anticipate Jozu's attack before the attack happened, but he was midway attacking Whitebeard already, so that speed feat isn't all that great either).



How does that make it any less valid? Jozu is fast.
Marco stated that Whitebeard could have avoided it - had the circumstances been different with his health, of course - so it doesn't point at Squardo being fast.

Aokiji is healthy, an admiral and can use CoO. Even if he was fixated on Whitebeard, he couldn't react until the last second. None of the marines or pirates even noticed him coming, either.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> If you compare both Jozu's and Teach's hits on Crocodile & Ace, you can see that they aren't so far of from each other. Teach nearly broke Ace's neck, and Jozu almost going to one-shot Crocodile, but still Crocodile manages to resist it just like Ace did. And Ace is physically more powerful than Crocodile.



Crocodile was retconned. Alabasta Crocodile and Marineford Crocodile are different characters. And I doubt Ace is physically stronger than Crocodile. He clashed with both Doflamingo and Mihawk.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Crocodile was retconned. Alabasta Crocodile and Marineford Crocodile are different characters. And I doubt Ace is physically stronger than Crocodile. He clashed with both Doflamingo and Mihawk.



And Ace clashed with Aokiji, who is more powerful than Doflamingo and Mihawk.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> How does that make it any less valid? Jozu is fast.
> Marco stated that Whitebeard could have avoided it - had the circumstances been different with his health, of course - so it doesn't point at Squardo being fast.
> 
> Aokiji is healthy, an admiral and can use CoO. Even if he was fixated on Whitebeard, he couldn't react until the last second. None of the marines or pirates even noticed him coming, either.



Whitebeard predicted G2 Luffy blocking Crocodiles attack that's why he didn't bother dodging Crocodiles attack. Whitebeard also predicted Jozu intercepting Aokiji so he didn't bother defending from his attack. However, he couldn't predict Squard attacking him. Squard confirmed for being faster than G2 Luffy, Crocodile and Jozu 

Sqaurd is now officially top tier

Also, fodder marines and pirates couldn't follow G2 Luffy either, so them not seeing Jozu isn't an amazing feat.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2015)

How can people claim that Ace was only as strong as Jimbei? He stalemated him when he only 18, you can't honestly believe he peaked at 18 and didn't ever get any stronger after that.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

Jackalinthebox said:


> How can people claim that Ace was only as strong as Jimbei? He stalemated him when he only 18, you can't honestly believe he peaked at 18 and didn't ever get any stronger after that.



Because this board is all about wanking Zoro off and underplaying Ace


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Whitebeard predicted G2 Luffy blocking Crocodiles attack that's why he didn't bother dodging Crocodiles attack. Whitebeard also predicted Jozu intercepting Aokiji so he didn't bother defending from his attack. However, he couldn't predict Squard attacking him. Squard confirmed for being faster than G2 Luffy, Crocodile and Jozu
> 
> Sqaurd is now officially top tier



I'll take Marco's word over your interpretation of the scene. And it's probably harder to predict an attack from someone who's right beside you - let alone your supposed ally - and react to said attack in time before you're hit. That means Whitebeard would need to be on his top game in Haki, which isn't the case from Marco's words. 

Also, Jozu's attack happened after the stab, and Whitebeard's performance was progressively getting worse from that point on.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> I'll take Marco's word over your interpretation of the scene. And it's probably harder to predict an attack from someone who's right beside you - let alone your supposed ally - and react to said attack in time before you're hit. That means Whitebeard would need to be on his top game in Haki, which isn't the case from Marco's words.
> 
> Also, Jozu's attack happened after the stab, and Whitebeard's performance was progressively getting worse from that point on.



Which helps my argument that he was fine at predicting Jozu attacking Aokiji even though he was stabbed already?

You know that what Marco said was for plot device of Whitebeard getting stabbed. But if we're going by pure feats, you can't undermine that pre-stab Whitebeard couldn't predict Squard attacking, but post-stab Whitebeard could still predict Jozu attacking Aokiji, so gg.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> And Ace clashed with Aokiji, who is more powerful than Doflamingo and Mihawk.



Ace's clash with Aokiji wasn't based on physical strength, though. 
It was merely a clash of elements and favors neither party with the way they're stacked up.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Which helps my argument that he was fine at predicting Jozu attacking Aokiji even though he was stabbed already?
> 
> You know that what Marco said was for plot device of Whitebeard getting stabbed. But if we're going by pure feats, you can't undermine that pre-stab Whitebeard couldn't predict Squard attacking, but post-stab Whitebeard could still predict Jozu attacking Aokiji, so gg.



He didn't predict Jozu coming. That's just conjecture on your part. Nothing proves it. 

Anyone can use plot to make their argument sound better. I'm going by pure feats and Marco's statement, which holds more ground than your assessment of the scene.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Because this board is all about wanking Zoro off and *underplaying Ace*


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> He didn't predict Jozu coming. That's just conjecture on your part. Nothing proves it.
> 
> Anyone can use plot to make their argument sound better. I'm going by pure feats and Marco's statement, which holds more ground than your assessment of the scene.



Interesting, because you've been using these kind of speculative arguments yourself:



King Itachi said:


> He stood there with hands in his pockets. How does that look serious to you?
> It was emphasized that a distraction was needed to take down Jozu, and he used a different attack in that instance.



Aokiji has his hands in his pockets = used a completely different, weaker freezing attack even though the effect was the exact same

So I could go

Whitebeard didn't look like he was bothering to defend from Aokijis attack = he predicted that Jozu would attack Aokiji

Don't accuse someone else of something you've been doing yourself


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> Interesting, because you've been using these kind of speculative arguments yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When you wank off to porn, don't you get a better climax when it's something that is more stimulating to you?

Either way, you get off in the end, but it's not really the same when one example is better than the other.

You're comparing two different things, and I have given you the reason as to why you're wrong. It's not speculation on my part. You interpret the scene at face value and assume they're similar circumstances due to the fact that both characters were frozen. Consider the other factors


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 11, 2015)

Reading some of these comments has me kinda confused, there's no way Ace would be completely useless in this fight. Ace has an insane amount of endurance, is pretty damn fast, and has good dc; not to mention his Logia intangibility would render all of Fuji's ranged attacks useless against him.


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> When you wank off to porn, don't you get a better climax when it's something that is more stimulating to you?
> 
> Either way, you get off in the end, but it's not really the same when one example is better than the other.
> 
> You're comparing two different things, and I have given you the reason as to why you're wrong. It's not speculation on my part. You interpret the scene at face value and assume they're similar circumstances due to the fact that both characters were frozen. Consider the other factors



It is speculation on your part. 

Aokiji froze Whitebeard in a different way than he froze Robin, Doflamingo and Jozu. He turned Robin, Doflamingo and Jozu into ice statues, while Whitebeard was just encased in a big block of ice. That's the fact.

You speculating it's a different attack just because it was done with him having his hands in his pockets is speculation. I could speculate that he always could do it without touching anyone, but it's not as much of a sure-fire way of doing it as you're giving your opponent more time to escape the further he is away from Aokiji. Using it in the marineford war could have frozen up the nearby marines as well, it could have also left a chance for Jozu to escape.

Don't quote me as saying the one piece wiki is full of hard facts, but it's edited by fans and it's been the general consensus there that Aokiji used the same attack on Doflamingo that he used on Robin and Jozu. So at least my speculation is more based on what happened after the attack and is backed up by other people.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> It is speculation on your part.



I beg to differ.



> Aokiji froze Whitebeard in a different way than he froze Robin, Doflamingo and Jozu. He turned Robin, Doflamingo and Jozu into ice statues, while Whitebeard was just encased in a big block of ice. That's the fact.



Whitebeard can't be frozen because of vibrations from Gura, which is canonical and stated on panel. So there's no way to compare him alongside the other examples.



> You speculating it's a different attack just because it was done with him having his hands in his pockets is speculation. I could speculate that he always could do it without touching anyone, but it's not as much of a sure-fire way of doing it as you're giving your opponent more time to escape the further he is away from Aokiji. Using it in the marineford war could have frozen up the nearby marines as well, it could have also left a chance for Jozu to escape.



It's kind of strange that Aokiji completely freezes Jozu, Saul, Luffy and Robin when he makes physical contact with them. However, Doflamingo is the only character who breaks it on his own so far, which is just me analyzing the situation like any reader would. Other characters needed to be "defrosted" or even suffered grave consequences from being frozen in that manner. You're merely disregarding actual details that are shown on panel, especially when there are difference in how Doflamingo was frozen compared to the others.



> Don't quote me as saying the one piece wiki is full of hard facts, but it's edited by fans and it's been the general consensus there that Aokiji used the same attack on Doflamingo that he used on Robin and Jozu.



He didn't. Aokiji made physical contact with Robin and Jozu. 
There's the clear difference that you're in denial about.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 11, 2015)

And hands in the pockets more so went along with Aokiji's casual response that I was talking about in one of the previous responses. In that case, I was making it clear that Aokiji actually had intent to take down Jozu unlike he had done with Doflamingo.

Mindset is what I was referring to. Forgot to mention that~


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 11, 2015)

I'm sure he didn't care about Doflamingo about to kill his friend and just casually froze him so he could feel a comfy chill.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 12, 2015)

Vivo Diez said:


> I'm sure he didn't care about Doflamingo about to kill his friend and just casually froze him so he could feel a comfy chill.



Aokiji never came there for any type of spectacle to begin with. He simply let Doflamingo walk off unharmed, despite realizing the threat he was. He goes on to tell nearby marines that he wasn't there and even tells Smoker to notify Akainu of the situation.


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## Bohemian Knight (Nov 12, 2015)

em senpai said:


> How the HELL is jozu going to get close to Fujitora. He can push the gravity sideways, push jozu into the ground, or fucking fly
> 
> Ace has flames at least which aren't affected by gravity (I mean in the strictest sense they are but I doubt the physics of that will come into play)



So then why can't Jozu use Ace's fire attacks to create an opening? This will eventually happen, and Brilliant Punk will cause a hell of a lot more damage to Fuji than Kuzan.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 12, 2015)

Bohemian Knight said:


> So then why can't Jozu use Ace's fire attacks to create an opening?


If Blackbeard got fodderized by a half dead Whitebeard, Issho is going to treat Ace even worse, I can't see Ace lasting that long at all.


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## Raiden34 (Nov 12, 2015)

Jigen said:


> If Blackbeard got fodderized by a half dead Whitebeard, Issho is going to treat Ace even worse, I can't see Ace lasting that long at all.



Wrong. Blackbeard fodderized Marineford Whitebeard.


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## NUMBA1TROLL (Nov 13, 2015)

Fujitora with very high diff.


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## DavyChan (Nov 13, 2015)

Erkan12 said:


> Don't be ridiculous, even Luffy himself says to Ace ''I will surpass you someday...'' in the war.



Because he was stronger. Not by much ofc. And we all know he is definitely A LOT stronger than Ace now so even if he was a good bit stronger at the time, it makes not a lot of since to say "someday i will pass you". Yeah He thought ace would go through some sort of timeskip like him and still be proportionate. This proves Ace was somewhere around Luffy's level, and it makes since. Ace was only a couple years older. Most of what Luffy said is in perception to how he felt Ace was in strength


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## Vivo Diez (Nov 13, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> (1)Because he was stronger. Not by much ofc. (2)And we all know he is definitely A LOT stronger than Ace now so even if he was a good bit stronger at the time, it makes not a lot of since to say "someday i will pass you". Yeah He thought ace would go through some sort of timeskip like him and still be proportionate. This proves Ace was somewhere around Luffy's level, and it makes since. Ace was only a couple years older. Most of what Luffy said is in perception to how he felt Ace was in strength



(1)


Luffy got no diffed by Aokiji while Ace was portrayed to be confident in engaging with Aokiji.

Only post-ts Luffy is now shown to be confident enough to fully engage with an admiral, like he did against Fujitora.

They were still way apart pre-ts.

(2)

No we dont.


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## ShadoLord (Nov 13, 2015)

Fujitora would beat them with around high-diff. 

At this point, I don't really see Fujitora being much weaker than the C3 if at all.


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 14, 2015)

DavyChan said:


> Because he was stronger. Not by much ofc. And we all know he is definitely A LOT stronger than Ace now so even if he was a good bit stronger at the time, it makes not a lot of since to say "someday i will pass you". Yeah He thought ace would go through some sort of timeskip like him and still be proportionate. This proves Ace was somewhere around Luffy's level, and it makes since. Ace was only a couple years older. Most of what Luffy said is in perception to how he felt Ace was in strength



Ace would've fodderized Luffy prior to the timeskip. Even after the timeskip I thought Ace was stronger than Luffy, well until G4 was revealed. Without G4 I think Ace beats Luffy, with G4; well I'm not too sure but Luffy would most likely win. Ace had to die, because otherwise; Luffy would've never been able to become the PK. That's how I see it anyway.


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## trance (Nov 14, 2015)

Issho with the upper end of mid difficulty or so. He's not a Logia so it's not like he can phase through Ace's attacks like they're of no concern to him but he's still comfortably superior to him altogether.


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## Ruse (Nov 14, 2015)

Corazon said:


> Fujitora would beat them with around high-diff.
> 
> At this point, I don't really see Fujitora being much weaker than the C3 if at all.



What this guy said


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## Gohara (Nov 15, 2015)

Ace and Jozu win with high to extremely high (closer to high than extremely high) difficulty, IMO.  Jozu alone has the feats and portrayal to suggest that he's around or close to Admiral level.  Jozu having Ace's help gives them the edge.


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