# Hokage Minato vs Kisame Hoshigaki



## Lyren (Jul 18, 2020)

Location : Island turtle.
Knowledge : Full for Kisame. Manga for Minato.
Distance : 20M
State of mind : IC

I have both of these two handily above Itachi and maybe Pain but i'm undecided on who wins between them. Thoughts and arguments ?

@Naemlis Orez @t0xeus @Troyse22 @Charmed @Santoryu @SakuraLover16  etc..


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## Shazam (Jul 18, 2020)

Minato


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## Lyren (Jul 18, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Minato


Why ? There is an ocean nearby and Kisame can get rid of the marked kunais with larges suitons covering the whole battlefield, he have full knowledge.
Kisame also survived B lariat so Minatos fire power is likely not enough to put Kisame down.


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## Charmed (Jul 18, 2020)

Lyren said:


> *I have both of these two handily above Itachi and maybe Pain*


 


Lyren said:


> Thoughts and arguments ?



Me: 


Well, I'd say Minato should be able to win eventually. How bout Mid-diff?
I'm gonna wait for Troyse's post, tho.


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## Charmed (Jul 18, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Why ? There is an ocean nearby and Kisame can get rid of the marked kunais with larges suitons covering the whole battlefield, he have full knowledge


 oh so they can move towards the ocean?, then I dunno, that makes Kisame a much harder opponent than he already is. If Minato wins, it's not gonna be easy.


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## Lyren (Jul 18, 2020)

Charmed said:


> Me:


I cant argue that here since thats for another topic


Charmed said:


> oh so they can move towards the ocean?, then I dunno, that makes Kisame a much harder opponent than he already is. If Minato wins, it's not gonna be easy.


Yeah sure. I actually intended for them to be fightning nearby the ocean, hence the location.
Well since B reacted to Minato and even managed to put a counter attack to him, i dont see why Kisame can't. Not only that marked kunais are non factor due to Kisame water AOE, but if Minato marks Samehada he is done for since it dodged B attack and will pierce Minato the moment he appears there while unaware of the blade spikes.


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## Charmed (Jul 18, 2020)

Lyren said:


> I cant argue that here since thats for another topic


Ik, don't worry too much about it. Hey, I just created a Minato thread, maybe you can post there too?



Lyren said:


> Yeah sure. I actually intended for them to be fightning nearby the ocean, hence the location.


why not put them ON the ocean instead. I think that would be interesting. I wonder how Minato's tags work on water.


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## Bonly (Jul 18, 2020)

Between Hiraishin and his S/T barrier can get rid of/ avoid any of Kisame's Suitons until he gets close to Kisame to tag him and then bag him when an opening pops up


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## Lyren (Jul 18, 2020)

Charmed said:


> why not put them ON the ocean instead. I think that would be interesting. I wonder how Minato's tags work on water.


Kunais are too light, they will float in the water and not even be able to keep a specific location, so Minato will have to gamble that some Kunai will get near Kisame, and the later can still get ride of them with his sharks  
Also using a rasengan underwater is a bad idea, Minato's hand physical movement will get slower while Kisamehada is both a sensor and a speedster underwater


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## Charmed (Jul 18, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Kunais are too light, they will float in the water and not even be able to keep a specific location, so Minato will have to gamble that some Kunai will get near Kisame, and the later can still get ride of them with his sharks


I've never seen a Kunai irl, tbh. Why do you think they would float, tho? I mean it's like saying on eof my  kitchen knives would float on water (they don't). Ironically a ship made of steel can float on water, but I'm sure it has to do with physics or sumthn' like dat.



Lyren said:


> Minato's hand physical movement will get slower while Kisamehada is both a sensor and a speedster underwater


That's true! I think that, if they start on the ocean, then I guess Kisame might actually win.


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## Lyren (Jul 18, 2020)

Charmed said:


> I've never seen a Kunai irl, tbh. Why do you think they would float, tho? I mean it's like saying on eof my kitchen knives would float on water (they don't). Ironically a ship made of steel can float on water, but I'm sure it has to do with physics or sumthn' like dat.


Well arent Kunai light tho? I dont think they are heavy enough to not be atleast moved by water.


Charmed said:


> That's true! I think that, if they start on the ocean, then I guess Kisame might actually win.


I agree

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 18, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Location : Island turtle.
> Knowledge : Full for Kisame. Manga for Minato.
> Distance : 20M
> State of mind : IC
> ...



Minato has no counter to WD, he loses either by running way or exhaustion


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## Midknight Crow (Jul 18, 2020)

Minato blitzes


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## Charmed (Jul 19, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Well arent Kunai light tho? I dont think they are heavy enough to not be atleast moved by water.


Sure! Water can move, but they'll sink.


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## Siskebabas (Jul 19, 2020)

Kisame being at or above pain is impossible, Kisame himself would heavily disagree


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 19, 2020)

Kisame flies into the sky where Minato can't catch him and takes him out with Water Style: Giant Shark Bomb.

Even if Kisame stays on land, he can win. Kisame kept up with V1/V2 Bee, Base Bee reacted to Minato.

Kisame stomps.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

Siskebabas said:


> Kisame being at or above pain is impossible, Kisame himself would heavily disagree



Not at all. Kisame>Bee>>>>>>Pain by portrayal

Reactions: Like 1


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## Siskebabas (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Not at all. Kisame>Bee>>>>>>Pain by portrayal


Such portrayal does not exist, pain would low diff Kisame and even then pokemeon logic does not apply here


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## Gianfi (Jul 19, 2020)

Actually Kisame May edge it out high diff. He can hardcounter minato’s Kunai with his water jutsu. Minato also lacks firepower to put him down quickly

Reactions: Like 2


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## Djomla (Jul 19, 2020)

Minato.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

Siskebabas said:


> Such portrayal does not exist, pain would low diff Kisame and even then pokemeon logic does not apply here



Idk what pokemeon logic is but Kisames portrayal is blatantly>Bee who's>Pain


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## BlueMeteor (Jul 19, 2020)

Minato drowns


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## uchihakil (Jul 19, 2020)

Kisame outlasts, minato can't really kill him, and he has to constantly be avoiding kisame's ninjutsu.


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 19, 2020)

Thoughts my fellow ninja
@dergeist

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> Kisame outlasts, minato can't really kill him, and he has to constantly be avoiding kisame's ninjutsu.



This

Like what exactly does Minato do to hurt Kisame?

Tanks are not someone Minato can beat


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## Goku Black (Jul 19, 2020)

Kisame gets blitzed and marked just like how initial KCM Naruto blitzed him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

uchihakil said:


> minato can't really kill him





Troyse22 said:


> Like what exactly does Minato do to hurt Kisame?


Rasengan?
Kunai slash that can slice Hachibi's tentacle?


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Rasengan?
> Kunai slash that can slice Hachibi's tentacle?



Rasengan that he could absorb or tank 

Who cares about the Kunai slash? A Hachibi tentacle is far less durable than Kisame don't be stupid


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

King789 said:


> Thoughts my fellow ninja
> @dergeist



Kisame negs, he absorbs chakra and jutsu. Asspullnato marks him with Asspulled mark, he absorbs it since mark is chakra, and Asspullnato dies of chakra fatigue. The ninja has nothing on Hachibi reserves one suction from Kisame and it's GG. Asspullnato has no way to put Kisame down, without getting negged, wand with low effort on Kisame's part at that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Rasengan that he could absorb or tank
> 
> Who cares about the Kunai slash? A Hachibi tentacle is far less durable than Kisame don't be stupid


Question was about tanking, he can absorb the rasengan but that's situational since he can't absorb a blindside, now you're telling me he can tank it vs me telling it can't doesn't go anywere, so ok

Kisame isn't immune to swords, that kunai attack is better than your regular sword, and your regular sword *Link Removed* Kisame, so that kunai slash damages him


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Kisame negs, he absorbs chakra and jutsu. Asspullnato marks him with Asspulled mark, he absorbs it since mark is chakra, and Asspullnato dies of chakra fatigue. The ninja has nothing on Hachibi reserves one suction from Kisame and it's GG. Asspullnato has no way to put Kisame down, without getting negged, with low effort on Kisame's part


JJ Obito couldn't aborb/nullify the FTG mark even with his juubi powers and regular absorption counters it?


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> JJ Obito couldn't aborb/nullify the FTG mark even with his juubi powers and regular absorption counters it?



What are you talking about?! Obito nullified Asspullnato's and left Tobirama's for plot purposes. Imagine using a plot nerfed Obito as an example to excuse Foddernato's mark. If we accept that argument then I guess that means Asspullnato's mark is of far inferior quality to Tobirama's. I guess it shows Asspullnato is far inferior to Tobirama, even in marks


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Question was about tanking, he can absorb the rasengan but that's situational since he can't absorb a blindside, now you're telling me he can tank it vs me telling it can't doesn't go anywere, so ok



All I'm saying is it doesn't matter either way. And being merged gives him absorption passively



trocollo said:


> Kisame isn't immune to swords, that kunai attack is better than your regular sword, and your regular sword *Link Removed* Kisame, so that kunai slash damages him



A Chidori can pierce A4 through his cloak but he can tank WAAAAAY heavier shit than that.

The sword was also thrown by Bee who's FAR physically stronger than Minato.

And it didn't even pierce deeply.

Show me Hachibi tentacle durability feats that lead me to believe it's more durable than Kisame please


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> What are you talking about?! Obito nullified Asspullnato's and left Tobirama's for plot purposes. Imagine using a plot nerfed Obito as an example to excuse Foddernato's mark. If we accept that argument then I guess that means Asspullnato's mark is of far inferior quality to Tobirama's. I guess it shows Asspullnato is far inferior to Tobirama, even in marks


That's not what happened, the mark disappeared when Obito trasformed, he wasn't even conscious when that happened
And no, just beacause it's a jutsu doesn't mean that it's plot bullshit, absorpion doesn't match well with seals, they can prevent whole tailed beasts to be absorbed/extracted



Troyse22 said:


> All I'm saying is it doesn't matter either way. And being merged gives him absorption passively


Why wouldn't matter? Even if you think the damage isn't lethat it esily become such by hitting a more weak spot, take Bee with his pens, he always aimed at the head, not at legs: *Link Removed* , *Link Removed*   If Kisame didn't dodge them he'd be dead
Who either isn't good as the non merged one or it's not passive but conscious, cause this: *Link Removed* , *Link Removed* , *Link Removed*



Troyse22 said:


> A Chidori can pierce A4 through his cloak but he can tank WAAAAAY heavier shit than that.
> 
> The sword was also thrown by Bee who's FAR physically stronger than Minato.
> 
> ...


Depends what you mean, chidori being the same element follows the rule of nullification, so a different tecnique who doesn't have the same adantage will have to be stronger, tho don't know whay this matters here

It's still trown tho, and tecnically if it's trown it doesn't depend on the physical strenght of the trower but on the speed the trower put into it, a non trown one would do a lot more

It's cool it just had to pierce it's not like there was force behind it, just wanted to say that Kisame's skin isn't an armor

Pretty sure there aren't but what's this Kisame durability level that must be reached? Cause as above swords pierce him, it's not like he's on another tier of durability


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## Draco Bolton (Jul 19, 2020)

Hosikage win.


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> That's not what happened, the mark disappeared when Obito trasformed, he wasn't even conscious when that happened
> And no, just beacause it's a jutsu doesn't mean that it's plot bullshit, absorpion doesn't match well with seals, they can prevent whole tailed beasts to be absorbed/extracted



Actually no, the mark never disappears (Asspullnato confirmed this about his ass pull mark). Obito made it disappear, those are the facts. It didn't just decide to disappear of it's own volitions. Absorbtion absorbs chakra, seals are composed of chakra, therefore they get absorbed. Also, it's not classed or referred to as a seal, so that point itself is mute.

You're defence of Asspullnato here is pretty flimsy, tbh.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Actually no, the mark never disappears (Asspullnato confirmed this about his ass pull mark). Obito made it disappear, those are the facts. It didn't just decide to disappear of it's own volitions. Absorbtion absorbs chakra, seals are composed of chakra, therefore they get absorbed. Also, it's not classed or referred to as a seal, so that point itself is mute.
> 
> You're defence of Asspullnato here is pretty flimsy, tbh.


The mark not disappearing on his own doesn't mean that there could be way to destroy it, as example when Minato incorpoartes it in the 4T sealing jutsu it gets broken along the sealing formula if the sealing formula is broken
No already explained, we have the whole shippuden where the akatsuki takes weeks to extract a tailed bests from a seal with a rinnegan jutsu and the help of everyone

Does that mean that you found my defence of Minato good in onther threads? Oh this is good, I'll take it


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## t0xeus (Jul 19, 2020)

Full knowledge for Kisame means instant Waterdome followed by 1k Sharks IMO.

Minato can't really do much about that either. Even if he counters the 1k Sharks attack, by that time he will be running out of air in lungs already and Kisame's next attack will be the last.
Minato needs FTG-marks outside of the battlefield to win, which you didn't give him.

Kisame takes this most of the times.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jul 19, 2020)

Minato>Jiraiya≥Itachi+kisame>Itachi>Kisame

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> The mark not disappearing on his own doesn't mean that there could be way to destroy it, as example when Minato incorpoartes it in the 4T sealing jutsu it gets broken along the sealing formula if the sealing formula is broken
> No already explained, we have the whole shippuden where the akatsuki takes weeks to extract a tailed bests from a seal with a rinnegan jutsu and the help of everyone
> 
> Does that mean that you found my defence of Minato good in onther threads? Oh this is good, I'll take it



Nice fanfic, Obito negged it no difficulty, the only way he would've done that would be via absorbtion. And that too since he doesn't have omnyodon yet. Also an actual sealing formula, can seal chakra, he sealed a bit of his and Kushina's in it. That point is kind of mute, so..

Please, the Akatsuki were using projections, we've seen how fast a Rinnegan user extracts a tailed besst from it's seal. He literally yanks it out of you and seals it in about 5-10 seconds. Anyway, they were using a different technique to seal the tailed beasts, and against the sands fuinn jutsu, so.. Even an Uchiha can pull it out in mere moments with the Sharingan power. My guess is Obito was holding back during the ceremony to not give away who he is, considering how he dealt with Kushina's seal neg difficulty. And that includes her sealing chains that were pinning Kurama down.

Sometimes (5% of the time) your defence is acceptable


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## Lyren (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Minato has no counter to WD, he loses either by running way or exhaustion


What do you think about my Samehada point ?


Lyren said:


> Well since B reacted to Minato and even managed to put a counter attack to him, i dont see why Kisame can't. Not only that marked kunais are non factor due to Kisame water AOE, but if Minato marks Samehada he is done for since it dodged B attack and will pierce Minato the moment he appears there while unaware of the blade spikes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Rasengan?
> Kunai slash that can slice Hachibi's tentacle?



Kisame absorbs it, or regenerates from it.


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## Lyren (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Asspullnato marks him with Asspulled mark, he absorbs it since mark is chakra,


Do you think sensors can sense the mark then since it's basically outside chakra in your body ? Because Kisamehada is a sensor too and he will have an easier time at detecting them

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Do you think sensors can sense the mark then since it's basically outside chakra in your body ? Because Kisamehada is a sensor too and he will have an easier time at detecting them



I don't see why not, although that depends on the sensor and their abilities. Samehada has by far one of the best sensing abilties, it can even track people down just like Karin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Nice fanfic, Obito negged it no difficulty, the only way he would've done that would be via absorbtion. And that too since he doesn't have omnyodon yet. Also an actual sealing formula, can seal chakra, he sealed a bit of his and Kushina's in it. That point is kind of mute, so..
> 
> Please, the Akatsuki were using projections, we've seen how fast a Rinnegan user extracts a tailed besst from it's seal. He literally yanks it out of you and seals it in about 5-10 seconds. Anyway, they were using a different technique to seal the tailed beasts, and against the sands fuinn jutsu, so.. Even an Uchiha can pull it out in mere moments with the Sharingan power. My guess is Obito was holding back during the ceremony to not give away who he is, considering how he dealt with Kushina's seal neg difficulty. And that includes her sealing chains that were pinning Kurama down.
> 
> Sometimes (5% of the time) your defence is acceptable


No again Obito wasn't conscious

It's not about chakra of the caster, but of them 
What? What's the special deal of the sand seal?
No Uchiha can pull it off in mere moments, Obito holding back? In what? You think he could've got Kurama anytime but he decided he wanted to try only when the seal opens?

Eh still something I guess 



uchihakil said:


> Kisame absorbs it, or regenerates from it.


What if it just hits the head/throat?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 19, 2020)

Minato wins before Kisame can cast the first seal to use any water technique
He already got blitz by KCM naruto and right after getting blitz Kishi made it clear Minato is faster than that 

guaranteed kisame don’t even see his death coming 

we have seen hirashin blitz MS users , juubi jins, A 

there is little reason to believe Kisame with no impressive reaction feats can avoid being blitz 

when a mere 6 gates gai straight up blitz him
And no 1/3 of chakra don’t suddenly affect his reactions when he has no jutsu that affect said reactions


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## Lyren (Jul 19, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Kisame with no impressive reaction feats


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 19, 2020)

Lyren said:


>




Love that face 
How do you do it ?
But seriously what has kisame reacted to that was impressive ?


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## Lyren (Jul 19, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Love that face
> How do you do it ?
> But seriously what has kisame reacted to that was impressive ?


: fusain (without space between : and F) btw you have an icone for all smileys where you type a message next to the pics insertion one.
Kisame displayed insane reaction feats against B, like the whole fight

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> No again Obito wasn't conscious
> 
> It's not about chakra of the caster, but of them
> What? What's the special deal of the sand seal?
> ...



Irrelevant, Obito was conscious when he was stabbed and Asspullnato informed him of the mark. He dealt with it while becoming the JJ. Now we know he didn't have omnyodon at that point, yet still the mark was gone, so (absorbtion GG)..

 The sand seal, the 2 tails all took 3 days. Obito was the one who could've done it instantly or within a few hours if we wanna be generous, yet chose not too (talking about when they're sealing tailed beasts). As for Obito waiting for the seal to weaken that doesn't matter, since he ripped out the 9 tails and even broke the Uzumaki sealing chains to do it. Even then Kushina had more than enough power to suppress and bind the 9 tails while being on the deathbed let alone when Obito ripped out the 9 tails breaking both the seal and the chains in the process. Obito could've taken the 9 tails at anytime, even after Naruto became the Jin, yet chose not too. Obito did rip it out in mere moments considering we know Asspullnato wouldn't be playing around and would get there asap.

Obito holding back was during the phantom dragons sealing considering he can pull tailed beasts out fo their hosts neg difficulty (ask Kushina). It could be argued it takes longer to seal them in the Husk, although Madara did it neg difficulty even ripping Kurama out of Naruto

Anyway, you're off topic won't be entertained, the point is your Asspulled FTG mark that never disappears was negged by Obito. Also, it is made of chakra, absorbtion techs absorb chakra, therefore abosrbtion jutsu absorb the mark.

I've no more time for flimsy arguments


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## 僕がキラだ (Jul 19, 2020)

Toilet-diff. Minato >=< KCM Naruto > Kisame

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jul 19, 2020)

Minato curbfodderstomps, neg-diff. 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed* 
*Link Removed* 




only this time he is losing his head faster than when he lost it to A&B


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 19, 2020)

Lyren said:


> : fusain (without space between : and F) btw you have an icone for all smileys where you type a message next to the pics insertion one.
> Kisame displayed insane reaction feats against B, like the whole fight



but bee is slower than A who is slower than Minato 
So I don’t see how that helps kisame here 
Like at all

it’s no different from saying reacting to Kakashi means something when dealing with Minato 

i confused

Reactions: Like 3


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Irrelevant, Obito was conscious when he was stabbed and Asspullnato informed him of the mark. He dealt with it while becoming the JJ. Now we know he didn't have omnyodon at that point, yet still the mark was gone, so (absorbtion GG)..


"While?" Exactly when? Not before cause he wasn't a JJ, not after cause he wasn't conscious



dergeist said:


> The sand seal, the 2 tails all took 3 days. Obito was the one who could've done it instantly or within a few hours if we wanna be generous, yet chose not too (talking about when they're sealing tailed beasts). As for Obito waiting for the seal to weaken that doesn't matter, since he ripped out the 9 tails and even broke the Uzumaki seali g chains to do it. Even then Kushina had more than enough power to suppress and bind the 9 tails while being o the deathbed let alone when Obito ripped out the 9 tails breaking both the seal and the chains in the process. Obito couldve taken the 9 tails at anytime, even after Naruto became the Jin, yet chose not too. Obito did rip it out in mere moments co suffering wr know Asspullnato wouldn't be playing around and would get there asap.
> 
> Obito holding back was during the phantom dragons sealing considering he can pull tailed beasts out fo their hosts neg difficulty (ask Kushina). It could be argued it takes longer to seal them in the Husk, although Madara did it neg difficulty even ripping Kurama out of Naruto


The 2 tails took a week, not 3 days and was of kumo not of the sand, the sand only has Shukaku
But again what's the problem with the sand seal?

You're going aganist the manga here, Obito can't rip out Kurama if the seal is intact, this much is clear
Kurama broke the chains but what about it? The seal wasn't closed
Holding back as? You expected Obito and the other members to sweat pulling bijuu out for a week? Basically you're asking that everyone dies in the attempt to extract a bijuu?
Lol nope, Madara took Kurama with the seal open, he couldn't have done it like that if Kurama wasn't out



dergeist said:


> Anyway, you're off topic won't be entertained, the point is your Asspulled FTG mark that never disappears was negged by Obito. Also, it is made of chakra, absorbtion techs absorb chakra, therefore abosrbtion jutsu absorb the mark.
> 
> I've no more time for flimsy arguments


If you don't want reply say just so, no need to actually reply and then say that you don't wanna do it
Why is my off topic? You brought in the mark being absorbed and we're discussing if it can, it's on topic
Repeating your op doesn't make it true, those point were addressed


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> "While?" Exactly when? Not before cause he wasn't a JJ, not after cause he wasn't conscious



Obviously before since the mark was gone, and he was conscious when he became JJ. Only after the fact he lost consciousness.




> The 2 tails took a week, not 3 days and was of kumo not of the sand, the sand only has Shukaku
> But again what's the problem with the sand seal?



Nah itnqas 3 days, the same as Gaara's not that that that's relevant.



> You're going aganist the manga here, Obito can't rip out Kurama if the seal is intact, this much is clear
> Kurama broke the chains but what about it? The seal wasn't closed



The seal was intact you see it being broken by Obito using his Sharingan. Other than that is fanfic.



> Holding back as? You expected Obito and the other members to sweat pulling bijuu out for a week? Basically you're asking that everyone dies in the attempt to extract a bijuu?



Not a week 3 days, and yes. Obito was holding back. The same reason he didn't sweep in kinda all the Jins, even Naruto and extract the 9 tails. You wanna tell us why, outside of holding back (plot nerf). 



> Lol nope, Madara took Kurama with the seal open, he couldn't have done it like that if Kurama wasn't out



The seal is always shut, Naruto just merged with Kurama. There's a reason he still has the pattern on his belly.




> If you don't want reply say just so, no need to actually reply and then say that you don't wanna do it
> Why is my off topic? You brought in the mark being absorbed and we're discussing if it can, it's on topic
> Repeating your op doesn't make it true, those point were addressed



You took it to fuinn jutsu, not me. That is the off topic, if you want to go back OT, that's fine. 

It's true, though. Is the mark that never disappears (asspull) made of chakra, yes. Chakra absorbtion jutsu absorb chakra, yea. Therefore they absorb the mark. Denial of this doesn't negate it, so..

Anyway, had to slap the fanfic around somemore I'm done now, bye


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Obviously before since the mark was gone, and he was conscious when he became JJ. Only after the fact he lost consciousness.


He was conscious before becoming a JJ, not when he became a JJ; you can't mix the two things up



dergeist said:


> Nah itnqas 3 days, the same as Gaara's not that that that's relevant.


*Link Removed*, Pain gives a week of time



dergeist said:


> The seal was intact you see it being broken by Obito using his Sharingan. Other than that is fanfic.


*Link Removed*, the seal needed Minato there to contain Kurama



dergeist said:


> Not a week 3 days, and yes. Obito was holding back. The same reason he didn't sweep in kinda all the Jins, even Naruto and extract the 9 tails. You wanna tell us why, outside of holding back (plot nerf).


No, no one sweeped, Hidan didn't sweep, it's just something that you don't do even it it was 24 hours you can't go all out for 24 hours



dergeist said:


> The seal is always shut, Naruto just merged with Kurama. There's a reason he still has the pattern on his belly.


*Link Removed*, Kurama was out and couldn't be brought back in, the seal was opened *Link Removed*, and not getting the logic of Naruto going BM with the seal closed



dergeist said:


> You took it to fuinn jutsu, not me. That is the off topic, if you want to go back OT, that's fine.
> 
> It's true, though. Is the mark that never disappears (asspull) made of chakra, yes. Chakra absorbtion jutsu absorb chakra, yea. Therefore they absorb the mark. Denial of this doesn't negate it, so..
> 
> Anyway, had to slap the fanfic around somemore I'm done now, bye


It's agai not off topic since it decides the on topic argument, so it's an on topic argument

Yeah same as chakra absorpion absorbs bijuu cause they are made of chakra, but wait no, they need a load of time to do that...

Same here tho, I legit think the "Obito could take Kurama anytime" argument is 100% fanfic


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## dergeist (Jul 19, 2020)

trocollo said:


> He was conscious before becoming a JJ, not when he became a JJ; you can't mix the two things up



Nope, he was conscious up until he became the JJ, plenty of time to remove the mark considering Asspullnato was fapping about the asspulled mark. And the only jutsu he had that could do the jobs was absorbtion, considering it's chakra, so..




> *Link Removed*, Pain gives a week of time



In fanfic land maybe, he gave six days for two tailed beasts which is 3 days per beast. Not only did he not give a week, he mentioned 6 days to seal 2, so wanna try again. Might as well take your L while you're at it



> *Link Removed*, the seal needed Minato there to contain Kurama



Actually no it didn't, since Kurama was still sealed away until Obito released it. Clearly the seal was intact, even when Obito took her away. He broke the seal and released the 9 tails, nice try with the fanfic though.




> No, no one sweeped, Hidan didn't sweep, it's just something that you don't do even it it was 24 hours you can't go all out for 24 hours



Wtf is Hidan to do with any of this? We're discussing Obito, talk about trying to add another deflection. Clearly somebody is in damage control mode.




> *Link Removed*, Kurama was out and couldn't be brought back in, the seal was opened *Link Removed*, and not getting the logic of Naruto going BM with the seal closed



You're totally dishonest, releasing a mode doesn't mean Kurama isn't sealed. And if you think the second scan backs you're argument, you wanna tell us why the seal still remained on Naruto's belly




> It's agai not off topic since it decides the on topic argument, so it's an on topic argument



It's not on topic since it's not related to the mark. The mark is our topic, everything else is you trying to deflect from the discussion on the mark.

[QUOTEPYeah same as chakra absorpion absorbs bijuu cause they are made of chakra, but wait no, they need a load of time to do that...[/QUOTE]

You're argument is flawed af, they are given life with omnyodon. Imagine trying to compare a chakra mark to tailed beasts Although, Madara sealed them into the Mezo in a few moments, so..



> Same here tho, I legit think the "Obito could take Kurama anytime" argument is 100% fanfic



Because there was somebody who could stop Obito


Anyway, done with the off topic, if you want to get back on topic and to the mark being absorbed we can. If not consider this the last post. Btw, you didn't disappoint, you proved some Asspullnato fans are intellectually dishonest

Since you've been handed your ass, I'm getting back to more important things, see yah


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## trocollo (Jul 19, 2020)

dergeist said:


> Nope he was conscious up until he became the JJ, plenty of time to remove the mark considering Asspullnato was fapping about the asspulled mark. And the only jutsu he had that could do the jobs was absorbtion, considering it's chakra, so..


"Up until" so he did it before becoming a JJ?



dergeist said:


> In fanfic land maybe, he gave six days for two tailed beasts which is 3 days per beast. Not only did he not give a week, he mentioned 6 days to seal 2, so wanna try again.


He said after they're done with 3 tails
Tho the sentences are actually separated so maybe you're right, umh guess I'll have to go with both, so worse case scenario is 3 days, but that still doesn't change my point



dergeist said:


> Actually no it didn't, since Kurama was still sealed away until Obito released it. Clearly the seal was intact, even when Obito took her away. He broke the seal and released the 9 tails, nice try with the fanfic.


Kurama was *Link Removed*, you think Minato was repressing it for nothing? Obito even *Link Removed*



dergeist said:


> Wtf is Hidan to do with any of this? We're discussing Obito, talk about trying to add another deflection. Clearly somebody is in damage control mode.


Your point is that Obito didn't go all out to extract the bijuu? Hidan also didn't; trying to explain that you can't go all out for long periods of time



dergeist said:


> You're totally dishonest, releasing a mode doesn't mean Kurama isn't sealed. And if you think the second scan backs you're argument, you wanna tell us why the seal still remained on Naruto's belly


You know seals can be opened without breaking them right?



dergeist said:


> It's not on topic since it's not related to the mark. The mark is our topic, everything else is you trying to deflect from the discussion on the mark.
> 
> You're argument is flawed af, they are given life with omnyodon. Imagine trying to compare a chakra mark to tailed beasts Although, Madara sealed them into the Mezo in a few moments, so..


Then you're ok even without an explanation on why the mark doesn't get absorbed? Cause we're discussing this

Beacause I'm comparing sealing, you can't get chakra from inside a seal, you can't even see it with dojutsu

Already responded above, Madara took them from opened seals



dergeist said:


> Because there was somebody who could stop Obito


No beacause he can't get it out of the seal *Link Removed*



dergeist said:


> Anyway, done with the off topic, if you want to get back on topic and to the mark being absorbed we can. If not consider this the last post. Anyway you didn't disappoint, you proved some Asspullnato fans are intellectually dishonest


But this is about the mark being absorbed, you just go "it's chakra so gets absorbed" I'm saying it's a seal formula so you can't just absorb it like that, not that I need to tho, since it didn't get aborbed in canon by JJ Obito


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## Crow (Jul 19, 2020)

Minato blitzes Kisame and kills him. All the people who're arguing that Minato can't damage Kisame, who tf y'all think he is, Tsunade? He's a bit durable, but his skin isn't made of steel. A kunai slash to the neck is taking him out.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

Crow said:


> Minato blitzes Kisame and kills him. All the people who're arguing that Minato can't damage Kisame, who tf y'all think he is, Tsunade? He's a bit durable, but his skin isn't made of steel. A kunai slash to the neck is taking him out.



Kisame has tanked FAR more deadly attacks than Tsunade can or has.

She regens a lot, but she's not much more durable than ur average kage level.

Kisame stands out as one of the tankiest people in the kage level bracket


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## Crow (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame has tanked FAR more deadly attacks than Tsunade can or has.



Kisame survived Asakujaku from Gai with no killing intent, if Gai wanted to kill him, he'd be dead. Meanwhile Tsunade survived being bisected with hardly any chakra and still healing the other Kage at the time, she's tougher than Kisame.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

Crow said:


> Kisame survived Asakujaku from Gai with no killing intent, if Gai wanted to kill him, he'd be dead.



Baseless, it was Gais largest Hirudora ever displayed in manga, he was not holding back.



Crow said:


> Tsunade survived being bisected with hardly any chakra and still healing the other Kage at the time, she's tougher than Kisame.



That's not a durability feat, that just shows she's tenacious.

Kisame is more tenacious based on his feats which I can list off if u want, I can also list durability feats unlike u genius


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## Crow (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Baseless, it was Gais largest Hirudora ever displayed in manga, he was not holding back.



Gai was in it for the info, that's why he didn't kill Kisame when he stood above him. If he had any killing intent, he would've killed him on the spot. 


Troyse22 said:


> That's not a durability feat, that just shows she's tenacious.
> 
> Kisame is more tenacious based on his feats which I can list off if u want, I can also list durability feats unlike u genius



Please tell me how Kisame is more tenacious than the woman who almost can't die in battle unless her head's chopped off! Kisame not taking a kunai slash to the neck. Show me a feet of his skin being hard enough to stop kunai in their tracks. Naruto blitzed Kisame and caught him off guard before he could react, Minato will do the same and slit his throat.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 19, 2020)

Crow said:


> Gai was in it for the info, that's why he didn't kill Kisame when he stood above him. If he had any killing intent, he would've killed him on the spot.



Kisame was still in some kind of fighting shape evidenced by Gai having to hit him AGAIN after hitting him with a Hirudora more powerful than the one that busted Madaras fucking legged V3

Tsunade can't survive any attack at that level, Kisame at least survived it.

You cant use the most powerful version of your technique AND be holding back, they cannot coexist.



Crow said:


> Please tell me how Kisame is more tenacious than the woman who almost can't die in battle unless her head's chopped off!



Or vaporized.

And he was still conscious and talking after missing entire fucking midsection.

While under mind molestation AND unconscious he revived himself with will power, broke the Mokuton that casually restrained fucking KN4 Naruto, used jutsu, AND got the Intel away from a bunch of powerhouses on turtle Island.

Kisames tenacity and will exceeds Tsunades by far 



Crow said:


> Show me a feet of his skin being hard enough to stop kunai in their tracks



Show me Tsunades.

He had a sword whipped at him by someone legit stronger than the Raikage who's>>>>Minato in strength and it only lightly pierced his shoulder. The idea that Minato can do anything besides a paper cut is baseless and outright stupid



Crow said:


> Naruto blitzed Kisame and caught him off guard before he could react, Minato will do the same and slit his throat.
> 
> *Spoiler*:



Outlier as Kisame as reacted to and countered attacks far faster both before AND after that showing.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 19, 2020)

Crow said:


> Kisame survived Asakujaku from Gai with no killing intent, if Gai wanted to kill him, he'd be dead



Kisame's 30% clone was spitting blood from a single 6G KICK. 

Even if you increase that clone's durability like 3x over (there's no proof the 30% clone is less durable btw, Kisame says they have the same bodies), Morning Peacock would destroy Kisame.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 19, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> This
> 
> Like what exactly does Minato do to hurt Kisame?



Kunai to the neck? Seal his chakra away like he did against Kurama? Rasengan to the head? Food Cart Destroyer?

Kunai to the eyes? Reaper Death Seal (okay, that's excessive)? Trick Kisame into absorbing natural energy and becoming stone?

How does Minato get hurt BY Kisame is the only question that matters.


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## Zembie (Jul 19, 2020)

FTG LVL2 ends the fight as soon as Minato throws a kunai. Kisame eats shit before he can vomit the water in his intestines.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

As far as I'm  aware, Minato is not faster than V1 Ei(4)

Samehada alone has KCM speed reactions
Kisame contended with V1 Bee who himself beat Ei(4) in base

On his own, either Kisame or Samehada can win.

With summons, Minato wins. 
WD is turned to stone
FTG dodges all else and FCD is eventually landed


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> WD is turned to stone


What


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> What


NE streaming


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> NE streaming


Minato cant even dream of producing enough quantity of Natural energy to bypass 30% of Kisame reserves


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Minato cant even dream of producing enough quantity of Natural energy to bypass 30% of Kisame reserves


Gamabunta, Gamaken, Gamahiro, Fukasaku, Shima, other roads

Altogether . . . .


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> Gamabunta, Gamaken, Gamahiro, Fukasaku, Shima, other roads
> 
> Altogether . . . .


So you think one jutsu of each one of of them here is worth 5% reserves of a biju ? Impossible


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> So you think one jutsu of each one of of them here is worth 5% reserves of a biju ? Impossible


Why? Why not?

They live off of NE, practically. They're already literal beasts.


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Also remember that they don't have to mix it in with their own chakra (assuming they use it,perhaps their energy technique is entirely different).

They just have to take in pure NE and release it onto the WD, without mixing it in with their own chakra


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> Also remember that they don't have to mix it in with their own chakra (assuming they use it,perhaps their energy technique is entirely different).
> 
> They just have to take in pure NE and release it onto the WD, without mixing it in with their own chakra


Is that thing even possible?


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Is that thing even possible?


Isn't that how it normally works?

Naruto vs Preta was visuallised as though pure NE was travelling through Naruto.

Also, Jiraiya didn't note any chakra drain in casting Toad on those Ame guys


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> Isn't that how it normally works?
> 
> Naruto vs Preta was visuallised as though pure NE was travelling through Naruto.
> 
> Also, Jiraiya didn't note any chakra drain in casting Toad on those Ame guys


But they cant spill natural energy outside of their body like a missile. Natural energy is present in the nature and yet WD isnt turned to stone when sages arent nearby 
Jiraiya never ever complained about chakra drain or loss throughout the whole Pain fight so moot point


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> But they cant spill natural energy outside of their body like a missile. Natural energy is present in the nature and yet WD isnt turned to stone when sages arent nearby
> Jiraiya never ever complained about chakra drain or loss throughout the whole Pain fight so moot point


Not like a.missile, but they can release it.

Well, they're not contantly chanelling it, that's why.

He turned an ENTIRE PERSON into a different species


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> Not like a.missile, but they can release it.
> 
> Well, they're not contantly chanelling it, that's why.


Waterdome doesnt absorb natural energy ALONE. It absorbs it just in case it is mixed with chakra as i proved to you by the dome not turning to stone against B while natural energy was there in the nature. Senjutsus are mixed with NE to increase their potency, but a single jutsu from toads contains nowhere near 5% of biju reserves.


Naemlis Orez said:


> He turned an ENTIRE PERSON into a different species


The metamorpho' jutsu was never said to be chakra taxing for Jiraiya, specially on someone with a "weak" chakra


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Waterdome doesnt absorb natural energy ALONE. It absorbs it just in case it is mixed with chakra as i proved to you by the dome not turning to stone against B while natural energy was there in the nature. Senjutsus are mixed with NE to increase their potency, but a single jutsu from toads contains nowhere near 5% of biju reserves.


WD doesn't  normally absorb NE at all. It absorbs chakra from opponents 

B isn't a sage, he wasn't specifically channelling his chakra into the environment.

Senjutsu is made up of NE + normal chakra 

Thus isn't a single jutsu, its a method. Continuously passing concentrated NE out into the immediately vicinity. 




Lyren said:


> Waterdome doesnt absorb natural energy ALONE. It absorbs it just in case it is mixed with chakra as i proved to you by the dome not turning to stone against B while natural energy was there in the nature. Senjutsus are mixed with NE to increase their potency, but a single jutsu from toads contains nowhere near 5% of biju reserves.
> 
> The metamorpho' jutsu was never said to be chakra taxing for Jiraiya, specially on someone with a "weak" chakra


It takes a lot of energy to convert a body, with its own life force, to be completely converted into something else.

Consider: 
Naruto used a few seconds worth of NE to convert Preta Path into stone. How much chakra would.it take to normally overwhelm Preta Path/Nagato? That's how much Naruto spit out in seconds. Only makes sense if he wasn't channeling his own energy, considering that he was already drained.


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> WD doesn't normally absorb NE at all. It absorbs chakra from opponents
> 
> B isn't a sage, he wasn't specifically channelling his chakra into the environment.
> 
> ...


I never ever said B is a sage, i claimed the the total opposite : Kisame not turning to stone when NE is always present in the nature, meaning that releasing random natural energy is the WD is the equivalent of it being present in the nature.

Yeah, and the senjutsu NE quantity Kisame will absorb isnt close to 30% of his reserves at all. Mind you that it is 50% chakra 50% NE, so the total of natural energy is even lower.


Naemlis Orez said:


> It takes a lot of energy to convert a body, with its own life force, to be completely converted into something else


Not when your opponents are canon fodder and low class shinobi.


Naemlis Orez said:


> Naruto used a few seconds worth of NE to convert Preta Path into stone. How much chakra would.it take to normally overwhelm Preta Path/Nagato? That's how much Naruto spit out in seconds. Only makes sense if he wasn't channeling his own energy, considering that he was already drained.


You cant just compare Preta, a path bearing rinnegan power to a random shinobi who doesnt even know how to perform a jutsu
Also Jiraiya barely gathers NE even in SM, you're telling me that he can use it comfortably in base while not showing the slightest sign of weakness?


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## Stonaem (Jul 20, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Also Jiraiya barely gathers NE even in SM, you're telling me that he can use it comfortably in base while not showing the slightest sign of weakness?


This proves my point.

Base Jiraiya isn't processing sage chakra (that's literally SM), so his NE streaming has to be pure NE, not NE mixed with his own chakra.




Lyren said:


> I never ever said B is a sage, i claimed the the total opposite : Kisame not turning to stone when NE is always present in the nature, meaning that releasing random natural energy is the WD is the equivalent of it being present in the nature.


That's because WD  isn't  naturally absorbing all energy, but only chakra.

Remember Hinata vs Deva? If these techniques naturally absorbed all energy, then either Hinata herself would've turned to stone or Deva had nothing to worry about because the absorption is slow as laces.




Lyren said:


> Not when your opponents are canon fodder and low class shinobi.


Why not? 

What does being a strong shinobi have to do with the constituion of your body?


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

Kisame doesn’t know how FTG works so extremely likely he gets blitz’d easily like Ei4. Given his hype / portrayal a relative to Minato’s this makes it even more likely how the match would go down; especially when Naruto using similar speed to Minato Caught Kisame off guard with a blitz as well. Combine all of these factors and Minato almost certainly low diffs this way. 

If it doesn’t end like that people keep asserting water is an issue as it will sink the Kunai, but Minato can teleport to Kunai mid flight with LV2 FTG before they sink, use Clones, or Mark Toad Summons. This isn’t an issue; and nether are Kisame large Suitons which gets cast side by FTG Barrier or evaded. Kisame absorbing Minato chakra is also countered by Minato taking in natural energy and turning Kisame or Samehada to stone. 

At the end of the day a marking will get near Kisame and he will get hit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lyren (Jul 20, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> This proves my point.
> 
> Base Jiraiya isn't processing sage chakra (that's literally SM), so his NE streaming has to be pure NE, not NE mixed with his own chakra.


Well this is wrong so it doesnt prove much. To even "gather" natural energy we saw how complicated it was against Animal path. Molding it with chakra is the boss toads job MOSTLY.


Naemlis Orez said:


> That's because WD isn't naturally absorbing all energy, but only chakra


And you re the one telling me it will absorb pure NE spilled by toads. You're contradicting yourself here.


Naemlis Orez said:


> Remember Hinata vs Deva? If these techniques naturally absorbed all energy, then either Hinata herself would've turned to stone or Deva had nothing to worry about because the absorption is slow as laces.


What techniques? Since when Deva have absorption ability ? I dont get your point here.


Naemlis Orez said:


> Why not?
> 
> What does being a strong shinobi have to do with the constituion of your body?


Body constitution is non factor relative to a jutsu that works with chakra. Preta turned to stone because Natural energy(mixed with chakra) surpassed 30% of his reserves, his body consitution didnt play anynpzrt here but just his reserves.
Same goes for the random who prolly cant even mold chakera


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

I really never thought I would see the day when 3 people disagree with a post and another rates it funny that Minato beats Kisame. Really NF


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I really never thought I would see the day when 3 people disagree with a post and another rates it funny that Minato beats Kisame. Really NF


You don't even know where I rank Minato


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

King789 said:


> You don't even know where I rank Minato


So....this effects my point how


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## Trojan (Jul 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I really never thought I would see the day when 3 people disagree with a post and another rates it funny that Minato beats Kisame. Really NF


yeah, this thread is a disgrace.

But then again, Minato has always been underrated


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

Hussain said:


> yeah, this thread is a disgrace.
> 
> But then again, Minato has always been underrated


Minato has historically be overrated the fact that Kisame is now eclipsing that is the troubling thing


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> The same people saying Kisame is overrated here are the same fucking clowns who think Jiraiya can beat or equal Minato


Jiriaya > Kisame; and has detailed knowledge on Minato’s fighting style that Kisame doesn’t have; also conditions matter, as in if the OP allows Jiriaya to start in Sage Mode or the battlefield in conducive to him reaching Sage Mode, Jiriaya gets an immense power up, which Kisame also doesn’t have (No Kisamahada is nowhere near the power boost of Sage Mode).


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## Troyse22 (Jul 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Jiriaya > Kisame; and has detailed knowledge on Minato’s fighting style that Kisame doesn’t have; also conditions matter, as in if the OP allows Jiriaya to start in Sage Mode or the battlefield in conducive to him reaching Sage Mode, Jiriaya gets an immense power up, which Kisame also doesn’t have (No Kisamahada is nowhere near the power boost of Sage Mode).



Kisame is portrayed>Killer Bee who's portrayed>6POP

He is the one sent to capture Killer Bee after Taka failed. If Obito thought Kisame was incapable of handling his Bijuu mode he would do it himself or at least back him up.

In addition to this he's stated to be capable of "taking on two perfect Jinchuuriki and a Mokuton user" with extreme difficulty referring to Bee, KCM Naruto and Yamato.

Jiraiya is not portrayed even NEARLY that strong because his portrayal is<<<<6POP


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is portrayed>Killer Bee who's portrayed>6POP
> 
> He is the one sent to capture Killer Bee after Taka failed. If Obito thought Kisame was incapable of handling his Bijuu mode he would do it himself or at least back him up.
> 
> ...


1- Kisame only beat V2-B. If Kisame could beat BM B, Kishimoto wouldn’t have contrived a reason to restrict it. Saying well Obito sent Kisame, doesn’t mean much, as Obito / Nagato consistently sent Akatsuki members on missions that ended in their failures and deaths.

2- I’m not even going to get into Kisame statements with you, as Kisame consistently places himself beneath Itachi / Jiriaya / Sannin / etc... by his own statements, which you ignore. So why should I take Kisame’s statements seriously when you clearly don’t? 

3- Pain is above Jiriaya, Minato, and Kisame; so using Pain as a benchmark is irrelevant here. Albeit if you want to do so, Jiriaya could at least beat Pain given the right conditions, while Kisame definitely can’t by feats of Portrayal.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Kisame only beat V2-B.



I never said he beat BM Bee.



Turrin said:


> Saying well Obito sent Kisame, doesn’t mean much, as Obito / Nagato consistently sent Akatsuki members on missions that ended in their failures and deaths.



Obito even tells Pain that failure will not be tolerated. He will not waste time unnecessarily, and certainly not send Akatsuki on blatant suicide missions and have them fail for no reason. He sent Kisame because he thought he could take Bee, he had no way to know Bee would be restricted. 



Turrin said:


> I’m not even going to get into Kisame statements with you, as Kisame consistently places himself beneath Itachi / Jiriaya / Sannin / etc... by his own statements



He has multiple statements of equality involving Itachi. He threatens to kill him after knowing (or thinking since he possibly didn't know about Obitos involvement, it's never indicated that he did) that Itachi took down the entire Uchiha clan. He says he hopes they don't end up as each others final opponents, that is a blatant goddamn equality statement, it's further solidified by Yamatos statement after that.

His statement was retconned and based entirely off of hype, even by P1 power levels he's>Kakashi, and Kakashi is at least going to be a factor in a Sannin fight. Even in P1 Kisame can give a Sannin a run for their money Sannin>Kisame>Kakashi/Kabuto and Kabuto held his own against Tsunade

In P2 he just completely blows them out of the water (pun intended  )



Turrin said:


> So why should I take Kisame’s statements seriously when you clearly don’t?



You do take Kisame's statements seriously, the problem is you only take outdated low end statements and ignore the later higher end ones. 

Grow up



Turrin said:


> Pain is above *Jiriaya,* Minato, and Kisame



I only agree with bolded. Minato would just hax Pain to death. Linking to one links him to all. Kisame just overwhelms with power, or if he gets stabbed by a chakra rod (which would never happen) he wouldn't cuck out like Jiraiya, he'd be pulling chakra directly out of Nagato himself.

And what's more Kisame would be able to track Nagato down since he's a sensor while merged, unlike Jiraiya who's not a sensor based on all canon information (excluding his actually pretty impressive barrier jutsu)



Turrin said:


> Albeit if you want to do so, Jiriaya could at least beat Pain given the right conditions, while Kisame definitely can’t by feats of Portrayal.



Jiraiya can beat Pain in his village where deva is restricted and he has knowledge that the paths are being controlled. I agree he'd be able to hunt Nagato himself and kill him while he's emaciated and weak and not wanting to nuke or do massive damage to his own village.

Kisame can outright face down a deva wielding 6POP in NEUTRAL conditions.


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## Turrin (Jul 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> I never said he beat BM Bee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1- Troy Kisame mission wasn’t even to necessarily beat B, it was to get Intel. That was the whole plan with switching out with Zetsu

2- Kisame threatens Itachi before he even knows how powerful he is. After spending time as Itachi’s partner he outright states inferiority. But you ignore that because “retcon”, so again I’m not taking Kisame statements seriously if you don’t.

3- I think Kisame is weaker then Jiriaya based on  statements, feat, and potrayal; not just one, like I just don’t think it’s fair for me to have to counter points about statements when you won’t take other statement seriously yourself.

4- Pain literally has an upgraded Rinnegan version of Kisame’s main ability (chakra absorption) on top of many abilities that exceed Kisame’s pay grade; and the overall utility of the Paths. And no sensing can’t find Nagato, as he prevents this as stated by Inoichi. Jiriaya also had sensing, even if you disregard the DBs, he has Ma/Pa on his shoulders to sense

5- How would Jiriaya hunt down Nagato with the 6 Path and Konan tracking and hunting him.

And how would Kisame take on Pain?


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## Serene Grace (Jul 20, 2020)

Minato blitzes

Reactions: Like 4


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## Troyse22 (Jul 20, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Troy Kisame mission wasn’t even to necessarily beat B, it was to get Intel. That was the whole plan with switching out with Zetsu



If he was legit one shot material for even Sannin level opponents who are<<<<<<<Bee then he wouldn't even be able to accomplish that.

No counter for the portrayal though from Obito I see 



Turrin said:


> 2- Kisame threatens Itachi before he even knows how powerful he is. After spending time as Itachi’s partner he outright states inferiority. But you ignore that because “retcon”, so again I’m not taking Kisame statements seriously if you don’t.



I take his statements seriously, I just always prefer to take later statements that contradict old ones

Yknow

Common sense stuff.

Also, Kisame was under the impression that Itachi was strong enough to take on the fucking Uchiha clan, it's one of the first things he talks about with Itachi. The entire Uchiha clan definitely has>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jiraiya level portrayal.



Turrin said:


> not just one



Oh but it is just one

Literally one statement u guys wank to hell, and ignore ALL of his other LATER statements.



Turrin said:


> like I just don’t think it’s fair for me to have to counter points about statements when you won’t take other statement seriously yourself.



Prove that the statement from P1 remains true into P2 when he gets insanely better feats hype and portrayal.



Turrin said:


> 4- Pain literally has an upgraded Rinnegan version of Kisame’s main ability (chakra absorption) on top of many abilities that exceed Kisame’s pay grade; and the overall utility of the Paths. And no sensing can’t find Nagato, as he prevents this as stated by Inoichi. Jiriaya also had sensing, even if you disregard the DBs, he has Ma/Pa on his shoulders to sense



Uh no, cause Naruto could track Nagato directly. All that's stated is that Nagato changes the chakra frequency consistently. Inoichi isn't even a comparable sensor to sages or Nagato/Kisame



Turrin said:


> 5- How would Jiriaya hunt down Nagato with the 6 Path and Konan tracking and hunting him.



Run like hell like he did the entire Pain fight


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 20, 2020)

Can’t react at all to KCM naruto yet somehow doesn’t get dicked by Minato 
Loving the thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jul 20, 2020)

imagine getting so triggered because your fav gets blitzed by FTG.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 20, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> imagine getting triggered because your fav gets blitzed by FTG.


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## Troyse22 (Jul 20, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> imagine getting so triggered because your fav gets blitzed by FTG.



Photoshopped, I would never!


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## Troyse22 (Jul 20, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Can’t react at all to KCM naruto yet somehow doesn’t get dicked by Minato
> Loving the thread



Because it's outlier. Has superior reactionary feats both before and after that.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Because it's outlier. Has superior reactionary feats both before and after that.



lol this is simply false
No one he ever faced is close in speed to KCM naruto
Bee is slower
6th gate gai is slower and kisame got blitz by gai
So it doesn’t look good for him either way

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 20, 2020)

Would be fun if this had a poll


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## Troyse22 (Jul 20, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> lol this is simply false
> No one he ever faced is close in speed to KCM naruto
> Bee is slower
> 6th gate gai is slower and kisame got blitz by gai
> So it doesn’t look good for him either way



V2 Bee>KCM Naruto in speed by feats.
Hirudora>KCM Naruto in speed by feats.

Kisame has reacted to both, even going so far as to counter Hirudora with his own Ninjutsu and wrestling with V2 Bee.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 20, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> V2 Bee>KCM Naruto in speed by feats.
> Hirudora>KCM Naruto in speed by feats.
> 
> Kisame has reacted to both, even going so far as to counter Hirudora with his own Ninjutsu and wrestling with V2 Bee.




The author disagrees with you
A4 is faster than Bee by both their admission
KCM naruto is faster than A
Thus bee is slower than naruto
The author in naruto which we are discussing makes that clear
When A to bee hearing says I am the fastest alive and bee doesn’t debate it

anything else is head canon which is sad
You are old enough to read
The author has clearly stated A4> bee in speed
Also clearly stated Minato > A4 in speed
Then clearly showed KCM naruto > A4 in speed

I don’t know what else needs to be said here

best of all after facing killer bee and seeing his speed it’s only after kisame gets shit blitz by KCM naruto that he says naruto is impossibly fast 
Kisame made no reference at all to bee speed meaning there was ENTIRELY nothing impressive about bee speed


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## Euraj (Jul 20, 2020)

I'm surprised this is still going. Even in this strangely skewed scenario, Minato defeats Kisame. 

Also what's the popularity of this idea that Kisame is actually stronger than man he took marching orders from?

Reactions: Like 3


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 20, 2020)

Euraj said:


> I'm surprised this is still going. Even in this strangely skewed scenario, Minato defeats Kisame.
> 
> Also what's the popularity of this idea that Kisame is actually stronger than man he took marching orders from?




People read a different manga only explanation
I keep looking online for it


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jul 20, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> People read a different manga only explanation
> I keep looking online for it


I just realized your avatar isnt the default one, is it


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> If he was legit one shot material for even Sannin level opponents who are<<<<<<<Bee then he wouldn't even be able to accomplish that.
> 
> No counter for the portrayal though from Obito I see
> 
> ...


1- And the Sannin are one-shot material for B based on what exactly? As for Obito I already told you he didn’t expect Kisame to even necessarily succeed, he only expected him to infiltrate the enemy. 

2- Nah Troy you don’t take even newer statements about Kisame strength seriously. Such as Kisame having a tough time with Roshi (a Jonin level threat), Kisame being stated to be submissive to Itachi in the DB3, Kisame believing Deidara is extremely strong, being shocked the zombie due could be killed, it being stated that Zabuza gen of the swordsman is stronger then Kisame’s, it being stated that Kisame beat Fuguki because he let his guard down, etc... tons of statements in P2 that would place Kisame much lower then you have him, which you ignore. So I think it’s fair to avoid statements in any conversation with you.

3- P1 Kakashi was also under the impression Itachi solo’d the Clan, and he thought he could take Itachi. Kisame thinking he can do something, and then clearly changing his mind after learning more of Itachi’s abilities, pretty much fits the way everyone else approached Itachi underestimating him and then being put in their place.

4- You say it’s one statement, but it’s literally 4 different statements from P1 / DB2 that place Kisame well beneath where you have him placed. However you keep complaining about other people using statement, but I’ve said let’s avoid them in this discussion and your the one that keeps bringing it back to statements so....

5- Kisame gets better feats but then so does Jiriaya and Itachi. Getting better feats doesn’t invalidate prior statements. Rather Kisame would need to do something objectively that invalidates the statement such as beating Jiriaya / Itachi; or beating someone that in-turn beat them. Instead Jiriaya and Itachi got far more powerful abilities in P2 then Kisame with Sage Mode and Susanoo; and fought much stronger enemies then Kisame did. Had better DB stats, and had much better hype statements made about them in P2. But again I don’t care if you believe the P1 statements are not, they aren’t necessary to even argue Kisame is not at the level you place him at.

6- Where is Kisame’s sensing ever hyped to be beyond Inoichi’s who is the clan head of a clan that specializes in sensing? Beyond that Naruto had Sage Sensing the best sensing in the verse and still had to jam a black rod into himself to find Nagato. Kisame wouldn’t even know to do this as he wouldn’t know Nagato even exists. 

7- Run like hell doesn’t explain how he would find Nagato; or how he would fight his way through Pain and Konan to get at Nagato; as well as fight Nagato who could still use Jutsu despite being crippled


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Euraj said:


> Also what's the popularity of this idea that Kisame is actually stronger than man he took marching orders from?


He have better feats than Itachi and is a straight counter to Pain with overwhelming power against his fightning style


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> He have better feats than Itachi and is a straight counter to Pain with overwhelming power against his fightning style


Come on Lyren; a *single body* of Pain has a better version of Kisame’s main ability. You must know Kishimoto doesn’t intend for Kisame to be anywhere near Pain.


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Come on Lyren; a *single body* of Pain has a better version of Kisame’s main ability. You must know Kishimoto doesn’t intend for Kisame to be anywhere near Pain.


Yes but Preta is just a single path of Pain with only one ability and Kisame doesnt have only absorption up his sleeve so he can take him down with other means such as physical hits.
My main issue in that fight is that if Pain uses black rodes on Kisame, he is fucked because Kisame will suck his whole chakra like he did to Aoba through his absorption projectiles. And Kisame have more chakra than Nagato as per some statement the latter himself said.
Boss summon sized creatures like Ponta are one shot material for Kisame, and Animal path's summons are not close to those of sannin individually minus Cerberus so Kisame defeating them with ease is fair. Cerberus is countered by getting his whole chakra sucked. Kisamehada is a sensor and will find the Cameleon.
Preta path missiles are slowed down by suitons or directly absorbed by Daikodan.
Human path is a problem but we saw that he cant achieve much against some with monstruous strength (something Kisame have) and overwhelming speed (something Kisame or at least samehada also have).
Shinra tensei is outright useless against someone with involvement of bodily contact or activity on par with perfect v2 jins by feats and even biju by his alias of tailess biju, so Kisame can resist it like Kn6 did

So yeah, Kisame is definitely a match to Pain who is basically seperate bodies with one ability to each of them. Although he is definitely weaker than Nagato.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Yes but Preta is just a single path of Pain with only one ability and Kisame doesnt have only absorption up his sleeve so he can take him down with other means such as physical hits.
> My main issue in that fight is that if Pain uses black rodes on Kisame, he is fucked because Kisame will suck his whole chakra like he did to Aoba through his absorption projectiles. And Kisame have more chakra than Nagato as per some statement the latter himself said.
> Boss summon sized creatures like Ponta are one shot material for Kisame, and Animal path's summons are not close to those of sannin individually minus Cerberus so Kisame defeating them with ease is fair. Cerberus is countered by getting his whole chakra sucked. Kisamehada is a sensor and will find the Cameleon.
> Preta path missiles are slowed down by suitons or directly absorbed by Daikodan.
> ...


Kisame’s only other ability outside of Absorption is Suitons which are eclipsed by the Paths offensively. 

Kisame absorbing Pain chakra through the black rods because he was able to do so to AoBa is an incredible no limits fallacy; especially what the black rods disturb a person’s chakra and ability to use any Jutsu, so it’s highly unlikely Kisame can do this. 

The rest of this seems like your having Kisame square off 1v1 against Paths, when in reality he will be attacked by multiple at a single time. For example while Kisame can use Suiton to deflect missiles this wouldn’t work as HG realm would absorb his Suitons. While he could avoid Human Realm in CQC this wouldn’t work because Deva can use BT to draw him into Soul Rip. And so on, 

This says nothing about CT/CST which completely obliterated Kisame


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> I have both of these two handily above Itachi and maybe Pain


Kisame too ? 


----------------------

About the topic Minato mostly shit to low diffs.

Higher mobility, better cqc finishing oppprtunities. Kisame lacks so many feats against non chakra-shroud opponents. 

IF Restricted Gai's speed and agility were a bit much for him per canon constantly .THen unrestricted Minato gonna made him dizzy.

Boss Summons, Sensory Chakra and FTG turn Kisame's all trap or area contron options useless. 

And even if he can fuse with Samehada or perform Water Dome and Daikodan w/o absorbing huge chakras. (cuz he aint have any base feats about his biggest jutsus) .. Even he can perform all of this at base.. Daikodan cant absorb and get bigger against a boss summon, cant negg FTG, Cant track his foot speed. And it useless against a rasengan that landing from his back. Minato can even BFR samehada out when he get the connection between.

Minato has every tool for dealing with Kisame. I didnt even mentioned, Senjutsu or Sealing Jutsus. They're aint even necessary.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gianfi (Jul 21, 2020)

JiraiyaFlash said:


> Kisame too ?
> 
> 
> ----------------------
> ...


While I agree that overall Minato is the most impressive shinobi, I think Kisame kind of hardcounters him. And if Minato is going to win, it’s certainly not low diff. Kisame should be able to get rid of Minato’s kunai with his suitons, also I think he has enough durability to tank Minato’s jutsu. He also fought and defeated Bee, who was capable of reacting/predicting Minato’s moves, so Kisame isn’t slow either. Imo WD is the game changer here that will give Kisame an hard-fought win


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Kisame only beat V2-B. If Kisame could beat BM B, Kishimoto wouldn’t have contrived a reason to restrict it. Saying well Obito sent Kisame, doesn’t mean much, as Obito / Nagato consistently sent Akatsuki members on missions that ended in their failures and deaths.


yeah, his point reminds me of @Speedyamell 's aweful argument on how Obito sending Sasuke to the Kages means Sasuke is stronger than him...


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jul 21, 2020)

Gianfi said:


> Kisame should be able to get rid of Minato’s kunai with his suitons


He throwed multiple kunais in the almost 100 meter diameter location circularly that even A4 cant keep up which kunai goes to where ?

How Kisame gonna blocks it. Even if try to attempt that. Minato can teleport before he blocks it and from that location he can send another projectile .. ANd when Kisame decide to react that . He can pop up and readjust another one ? 

No end for this ? Plus even he can block his kunais. Minato's foot speed & Reactions also way greater than Kisame. With SM its even more. And Minato can mark everything. ground, trees, kisame's clothes, samehada, kisame's himslef. 

Even Jiraiya able to summon a toad before Kisame land his blow on Naruto. Even Base Gai able to intercept him before he reaches to Asuma and Kurenai. Even on turtle island he aint able to run from Gai on foot (Bee were drained he couldnt run) thats why he procjectiles himself and go thru air. 

He aint a speedster. But he is facing against a one even w/o his FTG. with FTG and SM his mobility beyond Kisame's imagination.


He aint hard counters him at all. Actualy Minato death-counters Kisame.




Gianfi said:


> He also fought and defeated Bee


Cuz his speciality is this. And he take advantages of that. Plus Bee were restricted cuz he was still in recovery from his earlier Taka fight and cuz of civilians Bee aint all go out which is stated by Bee's himself. 

Kisame not a superior char than Bee in Narutoverse but Kisame is one of the most suited build for wrestling with jincs . Thats also stated. Minato's case different. Same Kisame always had troubles against non-jinc or non-chakra shroud combatants. 

Gai always dealt with him.
Asuma able to hurt him. 
Itachi seriously warn about Kakashi
ANd Jiraiya one paneled. 

So his Bee fight is a great showcase for "How good was Kisame at his job" .Its not a showcase about "Kisame is at Bee's tier in general scalings" No no no.

Plus Minato above Bee.



Gianfi said:


> who was capable of reacting/predicting Minato’s moves


Reacting and prediction is 2 very different thing. Plus that aint relevant about Kisame.


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Kisame’s only other ability outside of Absorption is Suitons which are eclipsed by the Paths offensively.


What about his physical strength ? Multiple punchs from v2 jins tier beasts are deadly to anyone without special durability, and Preta isnt like Asura so... We also saw Konohamaru putting down a path with his rasengan too lol


Turrin said:


> Kisame absorbing Pain chakra through the black rods because he was able to do so to AoBa is an incredible no limits fallacy; especially what the black rods disturb a person’s chakra and ability to use any Jutsu, so it’s highly unlikely Kisame can do this.


Pain rods and Aoba jutsu have exactly the same mechanics. The commune point that matters between the two is that just how the receiver can absorb the victim chakra, the victim also pull the receiver chakra if she has absorption.
Aoba intended to paralyze Kisame and suck his chakra but failed and thats basically what Nagato does.


Turrin said:


> The rest of this seems like your having Kisame square off 1v1 against Paths, when in reality he will be attacked by multiple at a single time. For example while Kisame can use Suiton to deflect missiles this wouldn’t work as HG realm would absorb his Suitons. While he could avoid Human Realm in CQC this wouldn’t work because Deva can use BT to draw him into Soul Rip. And so on,


Kisame can do multiple tasks at the same time as seen when B tried to figure out his reaction patern with the raiton pencil and sword attack simultaneously; which was somethig Kisame perfectly responded to.
Deva path interception doesnt matter here as Kisame is physically strong enough to whistand his pulls/pushs so it may distract Kisame for a second at most to get a hold of himself.
Preta path absorption isnt instantaneous so the unabsorbed water still slows down the missiles especially given how large Kisame AOE is, and he can accordingly respond to any other simultaneous attempt with Samehada spikes + Absorption while he casts suiton
I knew you were just giving examples out of conext but still, they arent that much valid.


Turrin said:


> This says nothing about CT


This is the only jutsu that i believe will be sucessful against Kisame as long as Daikodan isnt aimed at the cor.


Turrin said:


> CST which completely obliterated Kisame


It didnt oblirate Tsunade who didnt receive Katsuyu protection, and Kisame is at the very least as durable as Tsunade so i dont see why he will have more than minor scartches or deep cavity in his chest at worst that Samehada will heal.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 21, 2020)

Kisame couldn't handle or retaliate 6G Gai when we went offensive on him. And the Shoten has the same body as the original but only limited by chakra. No way he is reacting to Minato or any of his blitzes. Even though Kisame survived the Hirudora, it was because he was supposed to. And even with his insane durability, Kisame can't hurt Minato here. Minato's first shunshin will mark him and from then on he'll be harassed with FTG and Rasengans. 
Minato is a league above the likes of Kisame and Itachi and there is no logical way Kisame can win against someone he can't tag.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> What about his physical strength ? Multiple punchs from v2 jins tier beasts are deadly to anyone without special durability, and Preta isnt like Asura so... We also saw Konohamaru putting down a path with his rasengan too lol
> 
> Pain rods and Aoba jutsu have exactly the same mechanics. The commune point that matters between the two is that just how the receiver can absorb the victim chakra, the victim also pull the receiver chakra if she has absorption.
> Aoba intended to paralyze Kisame and suck his chakra but failed and thats basically what Nagato does.
> ...


1- His physical strength is meaningless against Pain. We saw Human Realm one hand block an attack from Sage Jiriaya. 

2- The chakra rods are used to disturb chakra not absorb it. So no they don’t have the same mechanic, but even if they did it would be a no limit fallacy to say Kisame can do what he did to Aoba to a character far stronger then Aoba

3- Kisame has not shown the physical strength to resist Deva Path when Sages and Giant Boss Summons couldn’t. HG doesn’t absorb instantly but all HG needs to do is step in-front and start absorbing which would prevent Kisame from blocking a volly of missiles form behind. Like wise is Kisame going to be casting Jutsu while being blown back by ST. There are simply too many attacks to deal with here 

4- So glad we agree Kisame looses to CT, so why are you saying Kisame is above the Akatsuki leader then?

5- Tsunade had Creation Rebirth, so literally every bone in her body could have been broken and she would have recovered. So sure I can see Kisame living through it with every bone in his body broken; and in no condition to fight


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- His physical strength is meaningless against Pain. We saw Human Realm one hand block an attack from Sage Jiriaya.


Kisame strength is far above that of sages, his physicality is compared to perfect V2 jins since he traded blows on a physically equal basis with B and thats above an imperfect sage strength like Jiraiya paygrade.
Strength wise : Tsunade>Kisame=v2 jins>Sage
I also believe that Human path feat of blocking Jiraiyas punch is just an outlier, as Jman totally overwhelmed and merked him with the first kick.


Turrin said:


> 2- The chakra rods are used to disturb chakra not absorb it. So no they don’t have the same mechanic, but even if they did it would be a no limit fallacy to say Kisame can do what he did to Aoba to a character far stronger then Aoba


Chakra rods are also chakra receivers as they receive chakra from Nagato.
Why not ? You're suggesting something like if Preta path can absorb P1 Naruto rasengan, it cant absorb Jiraiyas because the later is much stronger than Naruto. (I'm taking an out of context ex, i precise)


Turrin said:


> 3- Kisame has not shown the physical strength to resist Deva Path when Sages and Giant Boss Summons couldn’t


I adressed this argument above


Turrin said:


> HG doesn’t absorb instantly but all HG needs to do is step in-front and start absorbing which would prevent Kisame from blocking a volly of missiles form behind


Your initial point was if Asura fired missiles and Kisame countered them with Suiton from an opposite direction to slow them, Preta will step in to absorb it. How is asura moving behind Kisame and launching another laser beam from there in this short amount of time ?  


Turrin said:


> Like wise is Kisame going to be casting Jutsu while being blown back by ST.


It isnt blowing him back in the first place.
We saw Kn6 completely ignoring Tendos ST whereas sages failed at it, it is clear that Kisame can outmuscle it


Turrin said:


> 4- So glad we agree Kisame looses to CT, so why are you saying Kisame is above the Akatsuki leader then?


Because hes portrayed as stronger than B whose stronger than Pain and i believe he can beat him before the ooc CT comes into play.


Turrin said:


> 5- Tsunade had Creation Rebirth, so literally every bone in her body could have been broken and she would have recovered. So sure I can see Kisame living through it with every bone in his body broken; and in no condition to fight


No, Tsunade gave all her chakra to the villagers as pointed out by the Anbu, there is no reason to assume she wasted on hell of a portion for herself.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Kisame strength is far above that of sages, his physicality is compared to perfect V2 jins since he traded blows on a physically equal basis with B and thats above an imperfect sage strength like Jiraiya paygrade.
> Strength wise : Tsunade>Kisame=v2 jins>Sage
> I also believe that Human path feat of blocking Jiraiyas punch is just an outlier, as Jman totally overwhelmed and merked him with the first kick.
> 
> ...


1- Kisame never traded blows with V2 B; the only time V2 B attacked him he blew his chest away. Kisame only really ever blocked Base B attacks as his Shroud was absorbed before he even land his blow on Kisame 

2- Because absorption is a different mechanic then feeding chakra to something; also as I said the Rods disrupt the chakra of whoever they pierce do the idea that Kisame could even use this ability while under the influence of the rods is Dubious 

3- I said Asura can fire a volley behind HG realm who is absorbing Kisame Jutsu; not behind Kisame 

4- Kisame doesn’t have tails to anchor himself not strength anywhere near KN6

5- She gave it to the villagers and herself. We literally saw a smaller ST decimate the boss toads; there is no reason to assume base Tsunade can tank this


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Kisame never traded blows with V2 B; the only time V2 B attacked him he blew his chest away. Kisame only really ever blocked Base B attacks as his Shroud was absorbed before he even land his blow on Kisam


V2 B lariat took Kisame off guard, thats why he never used it again when Kisame would expect it coming and prepare a block. Basically what Gyuki told him to do.


Turrin said:


> 2- Because absorption is a different mechanic then feeding chakra to something; also as I said the Rods disrupt the chakra of whoever they pierce do the idea that Kisame could even use this ability while under the influence of the rods is Dubious


What does that have to do with Nagato rods being chakra transporters and receivers ?
Well also Aoba was supposed to paralyze Kisame by disrupting his chakra and absorbing it yet he failed, again ?


Turrin said:


> 3- I said Asura can fire a volley behind HG realm who is absorbing Kisame Jutsu; not behind Kisame


Samehada grows bigger and will shield him. She can also absorb the lasers chakra on conact, rendering them useless


Turrin said:


> 4- Kisame doesn’t have tails to anchor himself not strength anywhere near KN6


You may have a point concerning the first claim but not the second.


Turrin said:


> 5- She gave it to the villagers and herself. We literally saw a smaller ST decimate the boss toads; there is no reason to assume base Tsunade can tank this


The anbu said that she gave all her chakra to Katsuyu and Katsuyu wasnt with her, deducing she tanked it on her own is simple when we consider these two infos we got.
Tsunade tanked Mini magatama aimed at her chest without sustaining deep injuries so her durabolity is pretty good
(The apparent stab was the one the sword left.)


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 21, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> I just realized your avatar isnt the default one, is it



 cba to put anything up


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> V2 B lariat took Kisame off guard, thats why he never used it again when Kisame would expect it coming and prepare a block. Basically what Gyuki told him to do.
> 
> What does that have to do with Nagato rods being chakra transporters and receivers ?
> Well also Aoba was supposed to paralyze Kisame by disrupting his chakra and absorbing it yet he failed, again ?
> ...


1- So when did he ever match V2 B in strength or even V1 B?

2-  It has to do with them being a different mechanic then Aoba’s Jutsu, so it’s unlikely Kisame could absorb chakra through them; especially with his own chakra disturbed 

3- Samehada can’t absorb physical attacks like missiles or grow big enough to shield him

4- She gave all her Remaining chakra to the village and herself, but hey if you don’t agree it doesn’t matter as that is Tsunade’s feat not Kisame’s; and we have no reason to believe Kisame can tank an attack that is massively more powerful then one which decimated boss summons


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## Kisame (Jul 21, 2020)

Minato wins low-diff with much superior speed, clones, summons and much superior portrayal.


Turrin said:


> I really never thought I would see the day when 3 people disagree with a post and another rates it funny that Minato beats Kisame. Really NF


Well two of them are trolls/trolling, one is a dupe and the last one has a lot of 'unpopular opinions'.

So they don't count.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Shark said:


> Minato wins low-diff with much superior speed, clones, summons and much superior portrayal.
> 
> Well two of them are trolls/trolling, one is a dupe and the last one has a lot of 'unpopular opinions'.
> 
> So they don't count.


I hope i'm not the dupe


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## Kisame (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> I hope i'm not the dupe


Nah you're the troll.


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Shark said:


> Nah you're the troll.


Well i wouldnt call it trolling since i argued my stance as to why Kisame is both superior to Minato, Pain or Itachi with feats but still better than a dupe


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2020)

Shark said:


> Minato wins low-diff with much superior speed, clones, summons and much superior portrayal.
> 
> Well two of them are trolls/trolling, one is a dupe and the last one has a lot of 'unpopular opinions'.
> 
> So they don't count.


I guess but still


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- So when did he ever match V2 B in strength or even V1 B?


The Gyuki statement is pretty clear about it, because through this exact statement it is aluded that Kisame vulnerability to the V2 lariat was solely because of him being off guard not because he was physically slacking
Kinda like the Human path example if you want to make sense out of it.


Turrin said:


> 2- It has to do with them being a different mechanic then Aoba’s Jutsu, so it’s unlikely Kisame could absorb chakra through them; especially with his own chakra disturbed


But Kisame was supposed to be paralyzed once hit by Aoba projectiles ? And paralysis comes after getting your chakra going berserk like it happened to Jman, so what is the source of aoba projectiles paralysis effect if it didnt also disrupt chakra?


Turrin said:


> 3- Samehada can’t absorb physical attacks like missiles or grow big enough to shield him


She can borrow Kisame biju reseves and grow as big as she wants to do her task.


Turrin said:


> 4- She gave all her Remaining chakra to the village and herself, but hey if you don’t agree it doesn’t matter as that is Tsunade’s feat not Kisame’s; and we have no reason to believe Kisame can tank an attack that is massively more powerful then one which decimated boss summons


1- I have Kisame on par with tsunade durability wise
2 - Kisame legit physically overwhelmed a boss summon sized creature, why are you assuming that he is physically weaker than them?


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## Speedyamell (Jul 21, 2020)

Hussain said:


> yeah, his point reminds me of @Speedyamell 's aweful argument on how Obito sending Sasuke to the Kages means Sasuke is stronger than him...


It's not an argument.. it's a fact.
Obito was basically asked why he sent sasuke there instead of going in himself and he responded with "I have little strength." "I am weak."
It doesn't take much brain power to put two and two together


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jul 21, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> It's not an argument.. it's a fact.
> Obito was basically asked why he sent sasuke there instead of going in himself and he responded with "I have little strength." "I am weak."
> It doesn't take much brain power to put two and two together


He also said he was madara and his battle with hashirama weakened him.. that must be soo true.


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## Lyren (Jul 21, 2020)

Stop going off topic


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 21, 2020)

Minato wins high diff but I could see Kisame winning extreme diff in an scenario favoring him with mostly knowledge and perhaps location since he can just always spawn a lake. 

Kisame's psuitons basically negates Hiraishin Kunais and ground markings, which is a huge hit to Minato's usual blindside MO.

Kisame's AoE will keep Minato on his toes and he can create clones for diversión while he himself goes underwater, fuses with Samehada and prepares Daikodan.

In fact, once Kisame is underwater and fused, Minato would have a hard time killing him since going underwater would be suicidal but with summon help he might

Reactions: Like 1


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## Euraj (Jul 21, 2020)

Lyren said:


> He have better feats than Itachi and is a straight counter to Pain with overwhelming power against his fightning style


He's better at creating mass destruction than Itachi, but overall, Itachi is a more dangerous opponent. You can disagree with that. I don't really care. Itachi doesn't have to do with topic and Pain was the person I mentioned giving him marching orders.

I'm not seeing how he would hard counter Pain. His best technique, Suiro Sameodori, can be blown apart by a single Shinra Tensei. He can't pressure with clones because Pain can stretch his numbers from six and up using summons. Kisame's taijutsu is undermined by shared vision, and since he fancies using his own chakra as a water source,  a share of his ninjutsu can be drunken by Preta Path. He doesn't have genjutsu, so he doesn't even have that ace in the hole that Jiraiya could use against him.

To the topic; give me a summation on how you expect him to beat Minato. Scanning through, I'm just seeing a mess of off-topic bickering and arguing over non-issue particulars.


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## Itachi of the Leaf (Jul 22, 2020)

This isn't a fair matchup.
Minato obliterates kisame


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## Troyse22 (Jul 22, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- His physical strength is meaningless against Pain. We saw Human Realm one hand block an attack from Sage Jiriaya.
> 
> 2- The chakra rods are used to disturb chakra not absorb it. So no they don’t have the same mechanic, but even if they did it would be a no limit fallacy to say Kisame can do what he did to Aoba to a character far stronger then Aoba
> 
> ...



If sage Jiraiya doesn't have the strength then neither does Kisame even though sage Jiraiyas best strength feat is kicking animal into a wall and cratering it while Kisames is wrestling with V2 Bee

300iq


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## Perfect Susano (Jul 22, 2020)

Waterdome isn't an adequate counter since Minato could just teleport the dome itself away from the battlefield. 1000 sharks are probably avoided or destroyed by Sprialling Flash Stage 3. With the hype of Minato being able to wipe out armies with Hiraishin, I don't really think the jutsu is a problem. Minato is simply on a higher level than Kisame.


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## Grinningfox (Jul 22, 2020)

Minato shanks Kisame


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jul 22, 2020)

Minato wins.

Minato spiritually warped a Jūubidama, so chakra quantities should be irrelevant as it pertains to the battle simulation. The author consistently illustrated that Curse Seals, and associated jūin-jutsu can't be physically sapped of it's chakras, due to the fact that it's largely unexplored territory, it's literally a type of seal signifier that's carved on a square of paper, or steel, as it pertains to steel knife associated tools, hence it could be exemplified that Samehada, and Kisame's own physical chakra absorption is significantly unlikely to succeed in this battle simulation.

Physically Kisame can explicitly cognate, and subsequently contest Minato, and this would be a gargantuan issue if Minato doesn't make counteractive tactics preemptively, as Kisame or Samehada, can physically drain his gargantuan chakra reserves from a distance, like exemplified by Killer Bee's lighting pencil being explicitly stripped of it's chakras prior to the tree lighting enhanced tool penetrated his skull, he physically reacted to V2 Killer Bee, was faster than him on water contrasted with when Minato couldn't even physically anticipate an inexperienced default Killer Bee, who physically blitzed or killed Minato at 2 differential points in that battle simulation that transpires 14 years prior to the manifestation of the series, supplemented by an inexperienced default Killer Bee significantly amplifying all types of battle associated facets, and capabilities, and tangentially Eī like physically illustrated on panel (ie., explicitly incremented musculature (Eī, & Killer Bee), apparently transfigured to a Perfect Jinchūriki, and perfected V2 Humanoid Chakūra Cloak Mode, and other associated battle traits.)

Hence FTG CQC is a literal night-mare for Minato sans NTCM Kyūbi Chakūra, and BSM Mode by extension.

It's a toss-up, if this is indeed the case, although from an extended distance, employing guerrilla & flick warp tactics, Minato likely eventually wins.


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## Lyren (Jul 22, 2020)

Euraj said:


> He's better at creating mass destruction than Itachi, but overall, Itachi is a more dangerous opponent. You can disagree with that. I don't really care. Itachi doesn't have to do with topic and Pain was the person I mentioned giving him marching orders.
> 
> I'm not seeing how he would hard counter Pain. His best technique, Suiro Sameodori, can be blown apart by a single Shinra Tensei. He can't pressure with clones because Pain can stretch his numbers from six and up using summons. Kisame's taijutsu is undermined by shared vision, and since he fancies using his own chakra as a water source,  a share of his ninjutsu can be drunken by Preta Path. He doesn't have genjutsu, so he doesn't even have that ace in the hole that Jiraiya could use against him.
> 
> To the topic; give me a summation on how you expect him to beat Minato. Scanning through, I'm just seeing a mess of off-topic bickering and arguing over non-issue particulars.


I argued my stance on Kisame superiority to Pain in my exchange with Turrin so if you dont agree with any of those points, i can make Kisame vs Pain thread for discussion 

Refer to the first and second pages concerning Kisame vs Minato, most of the remaining pages are off topic


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## Goku Black (Jul 22, 2020)

Minato wins with moderate difficulty.

Stop this circus.


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## JayK (Jul 22, 2020)

Minato plants a seal in Kisame's tight asshole and then FTG's a tree into it

no diff

Reactions: Like 2


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## Euraj (Jul 22, 2020)

Lyren said:


> I argued my stance on Kisame superiority to Pain in my exchange with Turrin so if you dont agree with any of those points, i can make Kisame vs Pain thread for discussion
> 
> Refer to the first and second pages concerning Kisame vs Minato, most of the remaining pages are off topic


You don't have any posts on the second page, and your first page posts are only about washing away kunai with jutsu shiki, which doesn't give Kisame a way to actually defeat Minato, nor does it solve the problem of him simply being ran over. By the way, Killer B didn't _react_ to Minato. He anticipated his course of action. Minato can do more things than appearing behind one with a kunai up. Given what he did to A, we know he doesn't have to choose the exact area where he placed his jutsu shiki to appear (he dropped it beside A toward the ground, but appeared in the air behind him). He also can teleport with a large attack already in action or send objects at the location without sending himself.

Before it goes off topic, all this talk otherwise is about Minato espacing Suiro Sameodori which is less a question of if he can, but "does he think of it?" 

I don't see anything in your response to Turrin that address what I posted. In fact, most of what I'm seeing is what I mentioned as bickering over "non-issue particulars," on top of you making unsubstantiated claims about Kisame's body strength that Turrin points out pretty adequately are unsubstantiated.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 22, 2020)

Kisame never wrestled with bee in strength
V2 blew his chest open after samehada has taken the brunt of the damage and absorbed his chakra 

he also didn’t tank any V1 hits since as well samehada absorbed the V1 cloak before impact 

Kisame only impressive strength feat is over powering base gai 

what sort of BS is being spouted here

do note he considered KCM naruto impossibly fast guess who is regarded even faster than that 


Kisame gets steam rolled here 
Not even debatable 

I mean since we got High end and low end feats In DB as a thing 
Using hirashin twice before 8 gate gai can move 
Puts Minato reactions so far above Kisame 
I don’t think kisame would process he is in a fight before he is killed


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## Mithos (Jul 22, 2020)

Minato wins no/low difficulty. He admitted the Legendary Sannin were out of his league before almost getting killed by a mid-level attack by Jiraiya a chapter later. Minato has portrayal above the Sannin by a significant margin. We also know that Kisame couldn't defend himself against KCM Naruto's _Shunshin_, which was compared to Minato's and seen as a Yellow Flash. 

The portrayal here is abundantly clear.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 22, 2020)

Kisame can react to 7G Gai while JJ Madara can’t, and people think Kisame can’t react to Minato.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2020)

Lyren said:


> The Gyuki statement is pretty clear about it, because through this exact statement it is aluded that Kisame vulnerability to the V2 lariat was solely because of him being off guard not because he was physically slacking
> Kinda like the Human path example if you want to make sense out of it.
> 
> But Kisame was supposed to be paralyzed once hit by Aoba projectiles ? And paralysis comes after getting your chakra going berserk like it happened to Jman, so what is the source of aoba projectiles paralysis effect if it didnt also disrupt chakra?
> ...


1- That doesn’t mean physical equality it just means Kisame could have defended better with Suitons if he wa son guard such as casting water wave  

2- Whether it disrupted chakra or not you are again applying a no limits fallacy that if Kisame can overcome Aoba he can overcome Nagato of all people. Plus if chakra can be absorbed from this link of the black rods; all that would happen is Nagato would use HG realm and absorb Kisame’s chakra since HG realm absorption is > Kisame/Samehada’s absorption given their performance against V2 B

3- No where is it stated that Samehada can grow as big as it wants; another no limit fallacy 

4- I don’t care where you have Kisame; you have no proof he is on Tsunade’s level, considering if your assuming he she ranked CST, she has a fat great feat

5- Ponta is not Boss Sized at all; or hyped to be at Boss level; and CST >>>> ST that blew away the boss summons; so Kisame would need to be FAR FAR stronger then a Boss Summon to rank CST, and he doesn’t have any feats to suggest this.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Kisame can react to 7G Gai while JJ Madara can’t, and people think Kisame can’t react to Minato.



but kisame cant react to KCM naruto 
While jj Madara can 

what’s your point 

oh and keep In mind hirashin twice before 8G gai could move 
Which puts Minato reactions so far above kisame it’s sad


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Question to people can kisame react and avoid Kamui ?


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## Troyse22 (Jul 23, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Question to people can kisame react and avoid Kamui ?



Bee can react to and counter Hiraishin and Kisame scales higher than Bee

He can react to Kamui provided he's not occupied with a powerful opponent


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Bee can react to and counter Hiraishin and Kisame scales higher than Bee
> 
> He can react to Kamui provided he's not occupied with a powerful opponent



Kisame scales higher than bee based on what he never out paced bee and in fact could only stand and hope not to die against V2
Only when in water dome was he faster because bee was limited by his swim speed


Sure thing Kisame with no reaction feats can react to kamui
The thing that ripped gedo mazo arm off before it could be summoned away sure thing
Let me guess next he can side step kirin while smoking a joint

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Jul 23, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Kisame scales higher than bee based on what he never out paced bee and in fact could only stand and hope not to die against V2
> Only when in water dome was he faster because bee was limited by his swim speed



Hachibi cites the reason for another lariat not working underwater to be Kisames guard being raised, not Bees speed being reduced.

He scales higher than Base Bee who reacted to Hiraishin because he scales higher than V2 Bee who scales higher than Base Bee


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Ps: where was kisame reaction when he got blitz by KCm naruto ?
 
Curious as he didn’t imply its because I wasn’t paying attention 
My guy made it simple shit I got blitz 

So erm how does he not get blitz here 

if we want to call that a low end feat 
NotE Minato high end
1.  is throwing a Kunai and appearing with rasengan before Kakashi could do kamui 
2. Using hirahsin twice before 8G gai could move 

Kisame has nothing remotely close to those type of speed feats and has entirely zero speed hype on land 

he has never been noted for his speed yet Kishi has always made a point to drop a comment if he wants the reader to know the opponent Is fast 

from Haku all the way to rinnegan sasuke he has been consistent with his speed hype 

where is kisame hype regarding his reactions or speed ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Hachibi cites the reason for another lariat not working underwater to be Kisames guard being raised, not Bees speed being reduced.
> 
> He scales higher than Base Bee who reacted to Hiraishin because he scales higher than V2 Bee who scales higher than Base Bee



lariat already failed 
Why do the same thing again when samehada is fused when the reason kisame didn’t die the first time was because of samehada ? 

we also know kisame got faster underwater so nice mental gymnastics there 

it not working the second time has no baring on kisame land speed 


So you usinf Minato Low end feat 
How about using hirashin twice before 8G gai can move ?

ignoring that means I can ignore kisame feat 
Since we know 6G gai blitz the shit out of him 
And nothing was stated in regards to the clones having slower reactions or movement speed 

so either take all feats into account or none of them 
Can’t cherry pick bee feat to suit 
When bee several years later makes it clear he could barely see KCM naruto move who was still said to be slower than Minato in the next panel


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## Lyren (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- That doesn’t mean physical equality it just means Kisame could have defended better with Suitons if he wa son guard such as casting water wave


As far as the fight within the WD went, Kisame always attacked with his own body and closed the distance to do so. Using suiton in the waterdome is a useless move lol. So Gyuki clearly expected Kisame to physically block the lariat once on guard and we also have Kisame dominating the fight against V2 B underwater in close quarters


Turrin said:


> 2- Whether it disrupted chakra or not you are again applying a no limits fallacy that if Kisame can overcome Aoba he can overcome Nagato of all people. Plus if chakra can be absorbed from this link of the black rods; all that would happen is Nagato would use HG realm and absorb Kisame’s chakra since HG realm absorption is > Kisame/Samehada’s absorption given their performance against V2 B


Implying Nagato will be in a good condition enough to use Preta path while Kisame unexpectedly absorbed a greal deal of chakra from him. He can also remove the rods once he got more than enough chakra to weaken Nagato before the later even notices what happened.


Turrin said:


> 3- No where is it stated that Samehada can grow as big as it wants; another no limit fallacy


It grows big when it absorbs chakra.
Kisame have Biju level reserves.
Samehada can directly absorb chakra out of Kisame to grow bigger.
Where is the NLF ?


Turrin said:


> 4- I don’t care where you have Kisame; you have no proof he is on Tsunade’s level, considering if your assuming he she ranked CST, she has a fat great feat


Kisame tanked an Island wide Hirudora without any critical injuries and this attack held back V3 for an instant.
By not criticial i mean something Samehada can heal
His skin was tough enough to destroy  mokuton restrains absorbing his chakra while he was at a weakened state
If those are not very great durability feats idk what it is. His high durability+ samehada regen make him nearly impossible to kill


Turrin said:


> 5- Ponta is not Boss Sized at all; or hyped to be at Boss level


Ponta is not considerably smaller than Bunta, he is like 60% of his height.
He still have a good physical strength considering his huge size.


Turrin said:


> CST >>>> ST that blew away the boss summons; so Kisame would need to be FAR FAR stronger then a Boss Summon to rank CST, and he doesn’t have any feats to suggest this.


Having the same hype as Bijus and tangoing with V2 B is more than enough to put Kisame above boss summons strength wise


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Kisame tanked hirudora 
My guy could barely move a finger and was down for the count 
Interesting definition of tanking


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## Troyse22 (Jul 23, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> Kisame tanked hirudora
> My guy could barely move a finger and was down for the count
> Interesting definition of tanking



He didn't tank it but he was still capable of at least attempting to retreat which Gai stopped. He was hurt, that's undeniable


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> As far as the fight within the WD went, Kisame always attacked with his own body and closed the distance to do so. Using suiton in the waterdome is a useless move lol. So Gyuki clearly expected Kisame to physically block the lariat once on guard and we also have Kisame dominating the fight against V2 B underwater in close quarters
> 
> Implying Nagato will be in a good condition enough to use Preta path while Kisame unexpectedly absorbed a greal deal of chakra from him. He can also remove the rods once he got more than enough chakra to weaken Nagato before the later even notices what happened.
> 
> ...


1- I looked this up, and all Hachibi says is Kisame raised his guard against the Octopus legs, not V2. So I don’t even see the comment about V2 your referring to

2- Why would it be unexpected, Nagato is completely aware of Kisame’s abilities, so if what you say is possible he’d instantly know what Kisame was going for, and simply use HG path to suck Kisame dry.

3- It grows bigger but not much bigger; even after absorbing V1/V2 Hachibi chakra it didn’t grow that big, so yes this is a NLF to say it can grow massively bigger

4- He was also damaged by a mere punch from Gai and KCM Naruto; and pierced by a single sword from B. So he’s not that durable; AT was ether dampened by Daikodan or it’s simply not that strong despite it’s size due to it just being wind pressure. Boss summons have tanked Bijuu attacks and even partially ranked CO. They simply have better feats; and CST is Far beyond the ST in level that fodderized them.

5- No dude Ponta is massively smaller then Gamabunta; he isn’t even as tall as trees around Kisame and B; which aren’t even that tall. You need to re-read the chapter.

6- He was hyped as a Bijuu for his chakra and he never tangoed with V2 B, so yeah....


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## Stonaem (Jul 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Well this is wrong so it doesnt prove much. To even "gather" natural energy we saw how complicated it was against Animal path. Molding it with chakra is the boss toads job MOSTLY.


How is it wrong?

Jiraiya literally pushed NE into someone without going into SM himself. Unless you say it wasn't NE that turned that guy into a frog? Perhaps a weird henge like what Tsunade does? Still . . .




Lyren said:


> And you re the one telling me it will absorb pure NE spilled by toads. You're contradicting yourself here


No, I'm saying it will be forced. 

But you could argue that WD being a chakra construct will be devoid of NE.




Lyren said:


> What techniques? Since when Deva have absorption ability ? I dont get your point here.


Chakra absorption techniques.

They only absorb chakra (generally) and not all forms of energy in the environment.




Lyren said:


> Body constitution is non factor relative to a jutsu that works with chakra. Preta turned to stone because Natural energy(mixed with chakra) surpassed 30% of his reserves, his body consitution didnt play anynpzrt here but just his reserves.
> Same goes for the random who prolly cant even mold chakera


NE mixed with chakra at 1:2 ratio would mean that Naruto needs to feed Preta a full dosage of Pretas own reserves in order to reach 30% of his NE tolerance ability.

So with Naruto having already being drained to the point of almost fainting, its highly unlikely he tossed a full dosage of Preta reserves at him.


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## Lyren (Jul 23, 2020)

Naemlis Orez said:


> How is it wrong?
> 
> Jiraiya literally pushed NE into someone without going into SM himself. Unless you say it wasn't NE that turned that guy into a frog? Perhaps a weird henge like what Tsunade does? Still . . .


Once he has his target effectively subdued, if they refused to cooperated and tell him what he wants to know, he uses his  to tranform them into a frog by placing his hand on their head and forming a mental image of one.

Natural energy isnt mentioned here, he only uses chakra.


Naemlis Orez said:


> No, I'm saying it will be forced.
> 
> But you could argue that WD being a chakra construct will be devoid of N


Exactly. Why would WD absorb pure NE or be forced to doing so since it wont harm Kisame


Naemlis Orez said:


> Chakra absorption techniques.
> 
> They only absorb chakra (generally) and not all forms of energy in the environment.


Yeah which is also my point as to why Kisame wont absorb pure NE since he can only absorb chakra


Naemlis Orez said:


> NE mixed with chakra at 1:2 ratio would mean that Naruto needs to feed Preta a full dosage of Pretas own reserves in order to reach 30% of his NE tolerance ability.
> 
> So with Naruto having already being drained to the point of almost fainting, its highly unlikely he tossed a full dosage of Preta reserves at him.


Why not ? Naruto is an Uzumaki chakra monster outside of Kurama interference. Preta is a single path which means he prolly can bear 1/6 of nagato reserves at most.
Also it would mean that naruto gave 60% of preta reserves chakra rathee than a full dosage


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## Lyren (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- I looked this up, and all Hachibi says is Kisam


When B suggested that Lariat is his only option, Gyuki prohibited him from using it because Kisame will see it coming and isnt off guard anymore


Turrin said:


> 2- Why would it be unexpected, Nagato is completely aware of Kisame’s abilities, so if what you say is possible he’d instantly know what Kisame was going for, and simply use HG path to suck Kisame dry.


Why do you give full knowledge to Nagato on Kisame abilities ? They never fought alongside each others. All e knos about Kisame is his biju reserves exceeding his own and Samehada absorption not Kisames
Also do you mean Nagato will use HG through his real body or Preta corpse? Can he do that if its the former?
Removing the rods will also be an option as Kisame wont try stalemating a rinnegan ability superior to his obviously


Turrin said:


> - It grows bigger but not much bigger; even after absorbing V1/V2 Hachibi chakra it didn’t grow that big, so yes this is a NLF to say it can grow massively bigger


I meant for it to grow big enough to shield Kisame back at least which is not massively big if you want but the wordin doesnt matter as long as the blade serves its purpose


Turrin said:


> 4- He was also damaged by a mere punch from Gai and KCM Naruto; and pierced by a single sword from B. So he’s not that durable; AT was ether dampened by Daikodan or it’s simply not that strong despite it’s size due to it just being wind pressure. Boss summons have tanked Bijuu attacks and even partially ranked CO. They simply have better feats; and CST is Far beyond the ST in level that fodderized them.


What instance are you referring to abt Gai mere punch?
KCM Naruto is a physical monster tho, and Kisame body was too weak in that exact moment.
But didnt Hirudora bust susano after all ? I dont believe it did and if you dont either : - I dont think Daikodan is strong on its own, it gets stronger after absorbing ninjutsu iirc so how much it weakened Hirudora if it did at all is not measurable.
Kisame is also compared to a full Biju and if you think it was solely based on his volume of chakra, A4 also have biju tier chakra but isnt hyped with a tailess beast epithete nor compared to them 
You also dont factor Kisame regeneration at all, samehada can heal him from CST damage with his own chakra


Turrin said:


> No dude Ponta is massively smaller then Gamabunta; he isn’t even as tall as trees around Kisame and B; which aren’t even that tall. You need to re-read the chapter.


I just checked rn. He is defo smaller than P1 Bunta yeah, but in the Pain vs Naruto battle Bunta looked like an ant too so idk which calc to take..


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## Lyren (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 6- He was hyped as a Bijuu for his chakra and he never tangoed with V2 B, so yeah....


He overwhelmed him in CQC underwater. After all Gyuki is an octopus why would water massively weaken B 
He even blitzed him left and right when merged with Samehada


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> He didn't tank it but he was still capable of at least attempting to retreat which Gai stopped. He was hurt, that's undeniable


He didn’t thank it 
The end


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 23, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> but kisame cant react to KCM naruto
> While jj Madara can
> 
> what’s your point
> ...


Kisame was not looking at Naruto when KCM blitzed him. Hitting someone off guard isn’t impressive.


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> When B suggested that Lariat is his only option, Gyuki prohibited him from using it because Kisame will see it coming and isnt off guard anymore
> 
> Why do you give full knowledge to Nagato on Kisame abilities ? They never fought alongside each others. All e knos about Kisame is his biju reserves exceeding his own and Samehada absorption not Kisames
> Also do you mean Nagato will use HG through his real body or Preta corpse? Can he do that if its the former?
> ...


1- I found it he said it was because he couldn’t match his speed underwater....which implies Kisame would evade it, not overpower it

2- Kisame literally worked for Nagato for years, it’s more unfair tho assume he doesn’t have knowledge enough to know chakra absorption could be a threat; plus Kisame would literally need to absorb all of Nagato’s chakra quicker then he realizes what is going on and used HG Path, because the moment he does he wins. I don’t see this as likely; and even if it was you’d be arguing something that would be an extreme match up situation, rather then Kisame actually being better then Nagato, as Nagato literally has a better chakra absorption ability then this, so I don’t find this point relevant at all.

3-  Shielding Kisame back is not going to protect him from explosions

4- KCM Naruto punch is not even close to CST force though, so that alone should tell you your scaling is off. Daikodan as a large Suiton has to stop some of AT force; Kisame also absorbed Bijuu Chakra prior to that from B, so that may have also provided him some healing that helped him resist the attack; or it’s simply an outlier. It doesn’t matter to me as Kisame is shown being hurt by far less things then CST, and he didn’t directly tank AT (Nor does At even have the same scaling as CST)

5- Samehada needs to absorb chakra to heal Kisame; and if Kisame’s dead, which he will be it’s not healing him. 

6- Even in the Pain fight Bunta is massive largely then Ponta who isn’t even the size of a large tree 

7- He didn’t overwhelm him though; he absorbed his chakra there is a difference


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## Trojan (Jul 23, 2020)

Speedyamell said:


> It's not an argument.. it's a fact.
> Obito was basically asked why he sent sasuke there instead of going in himself and he responded with "I have little strength." "I am weak."
> It doesn't take much brain power to put two and two together


So, we are in 2020, and you still think Obito fought Hashirama and lost his power because of that battle?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Kisame was not looking at Naruto when KCM blitzed him. Hitting someone off guard isn’t impressive.



so why was it that kisame did not imply such and said naruto is impossibly fast 
Not omg he blind sided me 

also we have seen killer bee not look at Minato and anticipate correctly 
We have seen Itachi do it on several occasions 

simply put kisame could not react


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## Lyren (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- I found it he said it was because he couldn’t match his speed underwater....which implies Kisame would evade it, not overpower it


Or that Kisamehada underwater is fast enough to block it unlike when they are separated and on ground with Kisame off guard. Kisame was even close to B when Gyuki said that as far as i remember.


Turrin said:


> Kisame literally worked for Nagato for years, it’s more unfair tho assume he doesn’t have knowledge enough to know chakra absorption could be a threat


Samehada's chakra absorption yes but not every single technique up Kisame sleeve. Even Itachi who is Kisame's partener didn't witness his fight with Roshi, how the hell is Nagato supposed to know every single thing about Kisame minus what he listed himself


Turrin said:


> plus Kisame would literally need to absorb all of Nagato’s chakra quicker then he realizes what is going on and used HG Path, because the moment he does he wins.


Exactly. And even if Nagato will see what's going on, an enough replenished Kisame with a decent amount of chakra will simply remove the rods so Nagato won't set a counter mesure with HG. 
Although Kisame absorption against Aoba was near instantaneous so i doubt that he will take much time actually, Nagato will be thinking that he defeated Kisame and then his chakra is draining out of the blue, Kisame will have his chances meanwhile Nagato figures things out IMO.


Turrin said:


> I don’t see this as likely; and even if it was you’d be arguing something that would be an extreme match up situation, rather then Kisame actually being better then Nagato, as Nagato literally has a better chakra absorption ability then this, so I don’t find this point relevant at all.


Yeah that's simply a match up advantage, like how Yumi numa counters non legged susano despite being way below Susano realm in battle


Turrin said:


> 3- Shielding Kisame back is not going to protect him from explosions


Well if you have any proof that Asura mere explosions are more potent than V2 B lariat to bypass Samehada, sure.


Turrin said:


> 5- Samehada needs to absorb chakra to heal Kisame; and if Kisame’s dead, which he will be it’s not healing him.


Kisame is injured* no dead. Samehada will absorb Kisames own reserves to heal him, there is no difference if its Kisames or his enemy chakra for the blade to heal him.


Turrin said:


> 6- Even in the Pain fight Bunta is massive largely then Ponta who isn’t even the size of a large tree


Isn't "massively" a bit of stretch ? Bunta was really not that big in Pain fight


Turrin said:


> 7- He didn’t overwhelm him though; he absorbed his chakra there is a difference


By hitting him left and right


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Or that Kisamehada underwater is fast enough to block it unlike when they are separated and on ground with Kisame off guard. Kisame was even close to B when Gyuki said that as far as i remember.
> 
> Samehada's chakra absorption yes but not every single technique up Kisame sleeve. Even Itachi who is Kisame's partener didn't witness his fight with Roshi, how the hell is Nagato supposed to know every single thing about Kisame minus what he listed himself
> 
> ...



how on earth was kisame off guard 
They had already started fighting 
What did he go for a smoke break ?
He simply couldn’t avoid bee lariat or thought he could absorb it 
He wasn’t entirely wrong 
However to say he was off guard is a lie


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Or that Kisamehada underwater is fast enough to block it unlike when they are separated and on ground with Kisame off guard. Kisame was even close to B when Gyuki said that as far as i remember.
> 
> Samehada's chakra absorption yes but not every single technique up Kisame sleeve. Even Itachi who is Kisame's partener didn't witness his fight with Roshi, how the hell is Nagato supposed to know every single thing about Kisame minus what he listed himself
> 
> ...


1-He blocked it on land too; it just overpowered him, it wasn’t an issue of speed on land; this is why Hachibi is obviously talking about evasion here.

2-4. Okay so if it’s a match advantage is irrelevant glad we can drop this point as it has nothing to do with strength

5. Again Samehada can’t block 360 degree explosions so that’s pointless comparison as Samehada Will not be blocking the full attack as it did for Lariate


6. Ponta isn’t even bigger then a tree; it’s not a stretch; it’s a stretch that your comparing a fetless racoon with a hyped boss summon who have tanked Bijuu attacks and partial CO tho

7- You mean an exhausted Base B lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 23, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> so why was it that kisame did not imply such and said naruto is impossibly fast
> Not omg he blind sided me
> 
> also we have seen killer bee not look at Minato and anticipate correctly
> ...


Post Retcon Kisame was literally said by his creator that

 Rinnegan Obito>=Post Retcon Kisame>Nagato>=BSM Naruto

Are you saying the creator of Post Retcon Kisame was wrong?

Post Retcon Kisame looked at two perfect Jins and a Mokuton user and just said “Hmmm that would be a tough fight” meaning that Kisame was someone who could take on the two strongest perfect Jins and a Mokuton user.

How can anyone think Minato can take on someone like that?


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Post Retcon Kisame was literally said by his creator that
> 
> Rinnegan Obito>=Post Retcon Kisame>Nagato>=BSM Naruto
> 
> ...



The same kisame who didn’t know what a bijuu looked like 
It could simply be he overestimated himself 
That’s hardly an indication of strength considering 
He tried to flee then got blitz by a noob KCM naruto


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 23, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> The same kisame who didn’t know what a bijuu looked like
> It could simply be he overestimated himself
> That’s hardly an indication of strength considering
> He tried to flee then got blitz by a noob KCM naruto


Kisame has consistently been shown to be one of the most analytical characters. Sincerely doubt he was under estimating an opponent like that.


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## Lyren (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1-He blocked it on land too; it just overpowered him, it wasn’t an issue of speed on land; this is why Hachibi is obviously talking about evasion here.


Ironic that you interpret it this way while you were the one bringing out Human Path blocking SM Jiraiya punch. At first glance, HP was careless and didn't expect such speed and strength from Jman, hence why Jiraiya kick completely overpowered him but once he RAISED his guard he was easily able to block a punch from Jman which means that despite Jiraiya kicking him, it doesn't mean that Human path was physically sclacking but just off guard. (Although by feats Jiraiya should logically oblirate his hand but he didn't  )
This is the same with Kisame here, once he was ready for such level of strength from B, he will get a hold of himself and block it with all his force from the start


Turrin said:


> 2-4. Okay so if it’s a match advantage is irrelevant glad we can drop this point as it has nothing to do with strength


Fine


Turrin said:


> 5. Again Samehada can’t block 360 degree explosions so that’s pointless comparison as Samehada Will not be blocking the full attack as it did for Lariate


Isn't Samehada absorption omnidirectional ? not sure about it tho.
Anyway Asura missiles will be fired at pointblank range to hit Kisame back but Samehada will intercept them getting to Kisame so they'll explose without Kisame getting hit, the missiles wont reach kisame in the first place let alone the explosions


Turrin said:


> 6. Ponta isn’t even bigger then a tree; it’s not a stretch; it’s a stretch that your comparing a fetless racoon with a hyped boss summon who have tanked Bijuu attacks and partial CO tho


Well i agree that Ponta looks like an ant to P1 Bunta tho


Turrin said:


> 7- You mean an exhausted Base B lol


Well who caused him the exhaustion in the first place ? Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Kisame has consistently been shown to be one of the most analytical characters. Sincerely doubt he was under estimating an opponent like that.



and yet he showed he couldn’t react to KCM naruto 
Showed he had to get his chest blown to bits against V2 bee 

nothing at all he showed remotely implies if he fought all 3 of them he wouldn’t instantly have died


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Ironic that you interpret it this way while you were the one bringing out Human Path blocking SM Jiraiya punch. At first glance, HP was careless and didn't expect such speed and strength from Jman, hence why Jiraiya kick completely overpowered him but once he RAISED his guard he was easily able to block a punch from Jman which means that despite Jiraiya kicking him, it doesn't mean that Human path was physically sclacking but just off guard. (Although by feats Jiraiya should logically oblirate his hand but he didn't shurg )
> This is the same with Kisame here, once he was ready for such level of strength from B, he will get a hold of himself and block it with all his force from the start
> 
> Fine
> ...


1- If it was a matter of being prepared Hachibi wouldn’t have mentioned his speed underwater; it’s clearly about evasion here. Ether way you have nothing that proves your interpretation over mine.

2- Samehada is not intercepting at least 10 Missiles at the same time; while also deal with attacks from other Paths and Summons

3- Yeah Kisame exhausted him with chakra absorption not matching him in physical strength.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- If it was a matter of being prepared Hachibi wouldn’t have mentioned his speed underwater; it’s clearly about evasion here. Ether way you have nothing that proves your interpretation over mine.
> 
> 2- Samehada is not intercepting at least 10 Missiles at the same time; while also deal with attacks from other Paths and Summons
> 
> 3- Yeah Kisame exhausted him with chakra absorption not matching him in physical strength.


Why don’t you buy into Troy’s version of Kisame?


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Why don’t you buy into Troy’s version of Kisame?


What aspect of it?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What aspect of it?


That he is stronger than BSM Naruto


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> That he is stronger than BSM Naruto


I don’t even understand the journey to get there....

Like I kind of understand where he gets Kisame = Itachi from, as Kisame challenges Itachi in the flashback; this of course in the time-line happens before Kisame learns Itachi’s abilities, and after this in the time-line once Kisame Learns more about Itachi’s abilities he constantly Cucks to Itachi, but Troy ignores all those statements and reiterations by the DB; and only takes thee most recent one. Though even still this shouldn’t hold anymore weight then Kurunai challenging Itachi, but I can see where he’s coming from following the flimsiest of film flam logic, but I have no clue where the BSM Stuff comes from at all

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## Trojan (Jul 23, 2020)

Turrin said:


> but I have no clue where the BSM Stuff comes from at all


If I am not mistaken, it's how 7th Gates Gai pressured JJ Asspulldara.
where Kisame was able to fight him, and use his Jutsu against him just fine...


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## Turrin (Jul 23, 2020)

Hussain said:


> If I am not mistaken, it's how 7th Gates Gai pressured JJ Asspulldara.
> where Kisame was able to fight him, and use his Jutsu against him just fine...


If so I just can’t even with that


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 23, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Why don’t you buy into Troy’s version of Kisame?



 
I only got after reading twice that you were toying with me 
Troy is an angry little boy 

I prefer Kishi version of kisame

Reactions: Like 1


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## Stonaem (Jul 27, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Once he has his target effectively subdued, if they refused to cooperated and tell him what he wants to know, he uses his  to tranform them into a frog by placing his hand on their head and forming a mental image of one.
> 
> Natural energy isnt mentioned here, he only uses chakra.


Your link talks about chakra in general, it doesn't even mention Jiraiya in passing

Anyway. How is SM achieved? The person moves NE into their body, then mixes it with their own energies and balances it out.

The first part of that requires NE to be moved around before SM is achieved. So why can't it be moved in and out of their body in concentrated form?

Your Henge explanation fails because Henge requires chakra to maintain. The process you explained is unsubstantiated.





Lyren said:


> Exactly. Why would WD absorb pure NE or be forced to doing so since it wont harm Kisame


It wouldn't 'absorb' it, it would be force-fed it. It would be channeled into it.




Lyren said:


> Yeah which is also my point as to why Kisame wont absorb pure NE since he can only absorb chakra


Covered above



Lyren said:


> Why not ? Naruto is an Uzumaki chakra monster outside of Kurama interference. Preta is a single path which means he prolly can bear 1/6 of nagato reserves at most.
> Also it would mean that naruto gave 60% of preta reserves chakra rathee than a full dosage


Because he'd already been drained to the point  of almost fainting, so it was very little that he had left. In order for your theory to work out, Naruto would have to still have over 3× the chakra of a single path (which in this case, is about 1/3 of Nagato, since he himself was only focussing on 2/3 paths.

And I don't think Naruto has even half the chakra of Nagato, without Kurama assisting him

(Past: I see it now. It's beautiful)


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 27, 2020)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> That he is stronger than BSM Naruto



he is also stronger than adult Naruto and sasuke combined 
Seeing that he has limitless chakra absorption


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t even understand the journey to get there....
> 
> Like I kind of understand where he gets Kisame = Itachi from, as Kisame challenges Itachi in the flashback; this of course in the time-line happens before Kisame learns Itachi’s abilities, and after this in the time-line once Kisame Learns more about Itachi’s abilities he constantly Cucks to Itachi, but Troy ignores all those statements and reiterations by the DB; and only takes thee most recent one. Though even still this shouldn’t hold anymore weight then Kurunai challenging Itachi, but I can see where he’s coming from following the flimsiest of film flam logic, but I have no clue where the BSM Stuff comes from at all



It's not flim flam logic, the difference is in how we view the timeline.

What that scene says to me is "This is further evidence of a retcon from his P1 statement since this occurs technically before then"

What that scene says to you, at least to my understanding is "Kisame doesn't know what he's talking about"

Now, that would be a good debate to have as both have some credibility, HOWEVER, Kisame was under the impression that Itachi beat the Uchiha clan 1vX, even Sannin level portrayal doesn't touch that of the entire Uchiha clan. Because of that, your argument falls flat on its face. Kisame views both himself and Itachi>Uchiha clan who are>Any single Sannin

This means that my interpretation is right, and even if you argue it isn't, it means yours is wrong 

GG friendo


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## Troyse22 (Jul 27, 2020)

Jfc even the strongest Sannin was salivating at the idea of capturing little Uchiha boys, let alone taking on the entire clan


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It's not flim flam logic, the difference is in how we view the timeline.
> 
> What that scene says to me is "This is further evidence of a retcon from his P1 statement since this occurs technically before then"
> 
> ...


It is flim flam logic because even if we ignore the time-line stuff & DB, Kisame challenging Itachi is no different then Kurunai and Kakashi challenging Itachi, before they were aware of his abilities; both of which were under the impression that Itachi beat the Uchiha Clan too

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It is flim flam logic because even if we ignore the time-line stuff & DB, Kisame challenging Itachi is no different then Kurunai and Kakashi challenging Itachi, before they were aware of his abilities; both of which were under the impression that Itachi beat the Uchiha Clan too



yup


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It is flim flam logic because even if we ignore the time-line stuff & DB, Kisame challenging Itachi is no different then Kurunai and Kakashi challenging Itachi, before they were aware of his abilities; both of which were under the impression that Itachi beat the Uchiha Clan too



Except Itachi didn't take Asuma and Kurenai nearly as seriously as he took Kisame. For one, Itachi immediately ramps to MS against Kisame, and two, he talks down to them, saying it isn't his desire to kill them, as if he could at any time.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Except Itachi didn't take Asuma and Kurenai nearly as seriously as he took Kisame. For one, Itachi immediately ramps to MS against Kisame, and two, he talks down to them, saying it isn't his desire to kill them, as if he could at any time.



And once he changed to MS did kisame not back down ?
You make it sound like they full on had a fight and kisame bestest Itachi or something


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Except Itachi didn't take Asuma and Kurenai nearly as seriously as he took Kisame. For one, Itachi immediately ramps to MS against Kisame, and two, he talks down to them, saying it isn't his desire to kill them, as if he could at any time.


He ramped to MS against Kakashi. Guess P1 Kakashi = Itachi

And he also talks down to Kisame lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Then again this is kisame who hyped himself to think 2 bijuu might be abit too much for him then gets blitz by a noob KCM naruto 
Not really sure how what kisame thinks of himself in any reflection of anything factual in the manga


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> And once he changed to MS did kisame not back down ?
> You make it sound like they full on had a fight and kisame bestest Itachi or something



Not at all, i'm saying they're equals by portrayal. 



Turrin said:


> He ramped to MS against Kakashi. Guess P1 Kakashi = Itachi
> 
> And he also talks down to Kisame lol



He didn't do it immediately which is my point.

The second Kisame threatened him he went straight to MS.

He also never talked down to Kisame by saying he could essentially kill him whenever he wants


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Not at all, i'm saying they're equals by portrayal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So he considers Kisame who had his sword to his throat a marginally greater threat then P1-Kakashi; still doesn’t prove equality


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Not at all, i'm saying they're equals by portrayal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I get what your saying on this point thus far we agree kisame is certainly above part 1 Kakashi 

however kisame being equal to Kishi golden boy sorry Kishi didn’t make that leap

Itachi showing MS and kisame not continuing to prod is all we have 

that does not show equality at all 

especially when in part 1 he said we got you Itachi we don’t need to run
That’s the only time he directly compared himself to Itachi and it wasn’t in a good light


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So he considers Kisame who had his sword to his throat a marginally greater threat then P1-Kakashi; still doesn’t prove equality



It does though, because Itachi would tell Kisame that he could essentially kill him at any time. He also doesn't contradict Kisames statement, merely saying that nobody who raises their hand to their comrades dies a decent death.

Again I'm not arguing for Kisames superiority by portrayal, merely that they're equals as indicated in that scene.

And the notion that Itachi can casually be rid of Kisame with 3t is debunked, and I know that's an opinion you stupidly subscribe to


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## Troyse22 (Jul 28, 2020)

MHA massive fan said:


> I get what your saying on this point thus far we agree kisame is certainly above part 1 Kakashi
> 
> however kisame being equal to Kishi golden boy sorry Kishi didn’t make that leap
> 
> ...



Because Kisame wasn't there with the intent of killing Itachi, merely greeting him initially and then warning him against betrayal, otherwise he'd do something about it.

Either way, both evidently view a battle between them going either way.  

You're also drawing a conclusion from P1 and ignoring the P2 retcon regarding Kisames power in relation to Itachi and the Sannin.

That scene indicates a retcon from his P1 statement as that statement technically occured before P1.


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> Because Kisame wasn't there with the intent of killing Itachi, merely greeting him initially and then warning him against betrayal, otherwise he'd do something about it.
> 
> Either way, both evidently view a battle between them going either way.
> 
> ...



then what statement puts kisame and Itachi on the same level in part 2
Warning him against betrayal is all you got ?
Because that’s no different form shikamaru thinking his little team could take on hidan and kakuzu

where is the statement that puts them as an equal pair
Because the only statement the author produced has kisame admitting inferiority
So if that was retconned like you claim where is the author direct statement which contradicts this

if not stated or shown then simply in Kishi manga the conclusion can’t be drawn thats how discussions should be

else I can say Minato can use super cho Odama rasengan because why not he created the rasengan technique and its only using more chakra for bigger versions

yet no one would claim that in BD. Point you can’t just extrapolate when it’s not stated or shown

because if we go the head canon route kisame must be well below the likes of itschi seeing Kishi gave him a mirror that can reflect all elemental attacks and a sealing sword . The hype alone surrounding Itachi techniques put 99% of the verse to shame

However we don’t apply NLF to Itachi so why apply it to kisame ?

look it at from the author own words and how he describes the characters it’s clear who he views as superior


authors words in describing the technique he created. Showcased by trolling orochimaru someone kisame called so powerful 

now please present anything the author has said that puts kisame technique on the level of a God because that’s what kishi refers to itschi technique as . An exaggeration no doubt but when has Kishi exaggerated kisame to this point ?


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## Turrin (Jul 28, 2020)

Troyse22 said:


> It does though, because Itachi would tell Kisame that he could essentially kill him at any time. He also doesn't contradict Kisames statement, merely saying that nobody who raises their hand to their comrades dies a decent death.
> 
> Again I'm not arguing for Kisames superiority by portrayal, merely that they're equals as indicated in that scene.
> 
> And the notion that Itachi can casually be rid of Kisame with 3t is debunked, and I know that's an opinion you stupidly subscribe to


Yes and again someone challenging someone else’s doesn’t indicate equality; at best you can argue Itachi deemed Kisame enough of a threat to use Mangekyo; but this can even be put into a dubious light considering Kisame had the superior position with his sword to Itachi’s throat and Itachi didn’t know Kisame own power-level at the time ether, and could have been expecting him to be stronger then he actually was.

So really that scene tells us nothing definitive. Though if you want to say Kisame can push Itachi to Mangekyo based on this scene that would be way more defensible premise then saying Kisame is equal to Itachi based on this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MHA massive fan (Jul 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes and again someone challenging someone else’s doesn’t indicate equality; at best you can argue Itachi deemed Kisame enough of a threat to use Mangekyo; but this can even be put into a dubious light considering Kisame had the superior position with his sword to Itachi’s throat and Itachi didn’t know Kisame own power-level at the time ether, and could have been expecting him to be stronger then he actually was.
> 
> So really that scene tells us nothing definitive. Though if you want to say Kisame can push Itachi to Mangekyo based on this scene that would be way more defensible premise then saying Kisame is equal to Itachi based on this.



fair point 
This is also not much different from part 1 Kakashi challenging orochimaru 
Challenging an enemy has never implied equality


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