# Kingdom      - Part 6



## Saishin (May 2, 2014)

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is *Here*

*KINGDOM*
​


> Millions of years have passed since the times of legends, when the worlds of man and gods were still the same. In these times it was the desires of man that moved the world. It is the era of the 500 year war: The warring states period. Kingdom is the story of a young boy named Xin who grew into a great general and all the trials and bloodshed that lead him there.



Story and Art by: Yasuhisa Hara

Genre: Historic/Action/War

Published by: Shueisha in 2006 (on going)

Magazine: Weekly Young Jump

Volumes: on going

Reading Online

Excellent manga with a historical set,the story is thrilling and the characters are well defined.The drawings are very good and realistic.


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I think all of the states understand the threat of Qin and how important it is for Wei to hold them back.
> If Qi were to attack Wei in the back now, it's very likely that Han, Zhao or Yan would step in and help Wei out.



True. I suppose Qi will be more concerned with Yan/Chu as well. 

The one fight that he's been hyped to happen is Tou vs Reiou, so I can definitely see Tou killing him. But then, will Qin go on from there to win this? 

Someone's going to have to back down. Qin really need this territory to do as they say and 'cripple' Wei, but I just don't see how it's possible and I hope Hara doesn't make an unrealistic victory. And Tou losing this would not help any potential promotion prospects I'd imagine. 

Maybe Qin will call in another elite General after all. Or perhaps Mouten/Heki? Though I'm not sure even that is enough.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 2, 2014)

Part 6 it is, the part where we finally catch up with the raws.

I want them to call Mouten for back up, we can't just see how Ouhon and Shin have progressed during the past 2 years without showing how Mouten has done as well.


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

I wouldn't mind not seeing Mouten, actually. Just because we won't always assume "Z has joined Shin, so Y will follow soon enough".

Ouhon didn't really have much development since before the Coalition arc.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 2, 2014)

First page of the new thread.


And Kanki,
the only development Ouhon needs, is an arrow through his head.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 2, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> First page of the new thread.
> 
> 
> And Kanki,
> the only development Ouhon needs, is an arrow through his head.



Get out, Ouhon is an awesome character.


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

First poll needs to be "Who will win this war", by the way.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 2, 2014)

I want Ousen to give Ouhon a beating for stealing his possible achievement in this war.

I still really want to see a fist fight in Kingdom.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 2, 2014)

Moe said:


> Get out, Ouhon is an awesome character.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 2, 2014)




----------



## Patrick (May 2, 2014)

Yeah Part 6!

When was the last time a manga thread got to 6 threads? Or are we the first?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 2, 2014)

Moe said:


> *Spoiler*: __


----------



## Veggie (May 2, 2014)

Ouhon could turn out to be a great strategist, and a great general. But right now I still want Shin lad to kick his stuck up ass


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 2, 2014)

Holy shit Ousen has the exact same expression in every panel


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

Only time Ousen had a different expression was when he looked up at Renpa. 

Ousen be mad 

I was so hyped back when I first read this. Then Ousen turned and ran


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 2, 2014)

Renpa cockblocked Ousen from recruiting Kyouen after all. No wonder he was mad.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 2, 2014)

Well Ousen can't bear the presence of a TRUE General of the Heavens. Can't blame him.


----------



## Veggie (May 2, 2014)

Just read chapter 383, damn what a cliff hanger. I'm so excited to see Shin's duel on Sunday


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 2, 2014)

Edward Newgate said:


> Well Ousen can't bear the presence of a TRUE General of the Heavens. Can't blame him.


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

Vegetto Leonhart said:


> Just read chapter 383, damn what a cliff hanger. I'm so excited to see Shin's duel on Sunday



Might be tomorrow with mangajoy.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 2, 2014)

I've caught up on the latest chapters...Kyoukai looks sexier than ever...Shin is using the glaive to excellent effect (especially against the general)...but shockingly...the author made me sad about Seikyou dying. I hated that twerp when we first saw him, he killed off that commoner just because he rose so high on his own. But how he died, to protect his wife, and giving Shin his blessings and allies...I couldn't help but mourn his passing. This author probably loves breaking his/her (can't remember) audiences' hearts.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 2, 2014)

New thread. That means Ousen won the poll. ( since the final vote is my power  )
Also being on mobile I can't post the meme's for the new thread damn, will post them tomorrow.

New poll need's to happen since this one is closed.
I think we should make an exception for the current list and make like KIG said.

Who will win the current war ? ( poll )

Wei
Qin
Its a tie between them


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

Now that Wei have 4 elite Generals, I'm thinking Zhao will currently have 3, and Futei will make it 4.

The current Great General who isn't apart from of the Heavens, won't be trusted enough to be a Heaven. Like perhaps he's a traitor from another state.

Or.... I still believe Zhao may use the assassins. There's no way Kyoukai's story with the tribes is over and yet she isn't leaving the HSU any time soon (or rather, the Qin army). In other words, they will come to her and Zhao might give one of them the rank of General, and she'll have assassins with her.

As things stand Zhao only have 2 elite Generals, and only 1 of whom stays in the state, so they must have more.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 2, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Now that Wei have 4 elite Generals, I'm thinking Zhao will currently have 3, and Futei will make it 4.
> 
> The current Great General who isn't apart from of the Heavens, won't be trusted enough to be a Heaven. Like perhaps he's a traitor from another state.
> 
> ...


How are the other states doing? Do you think we'll see of any of them try to make a move this arc? I agree that the tribes may come for Kyoukai, there's no way they can keep Shiyuu's death a secret forever.


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> How are the other states doing? Do you think we'll see of any of them try to make a move this arc? I agree that the tribes may come for Kyoukai, there's no way they can keep Shiyuu's death a secret forever.



There's no reason why the other states can't have a war now tbh. Qin are, after all. I don't think we'll see anyone invade Qin, possibly bar Chu. Zhao could, I suppose.

We'll have to see more of HakuRei/Kouyoku at some stage. Perhaps Chu will invade Qi? Or if Hara wanted to introduce us to Yan, they could invade Zhao as revenge for Gekishin.

Doubt it'd be for a while though. But I'd love it if we see some panels of future characters. How about Qi's general defeating a Chu one, then sounding the retreat once they're aware that Chu have summoned Kouen. Good way of hyping up a Qi General, and Kouen at the same time.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 2, 2014)

Kanki, I see your desperately trying to cling to your Great heaven assassin general theory, even after the shiyuu reveal.


----------



## Kanki (May 2, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Kanki, I see your desperately trying to cling to your Great heaven assassin general theory, even after the shiyuu reveal.



It's happening. Swear allegiance to my theory or I'll neg you and 3 people on your friends list


----------



## auem (May 3, 2014)

i thought Ouhon's plan was to pick 3 points which were most vulnerable and least likely to get backup support...next thing i am seeing is they are fighting normal battles with enemy numbers manifold...


----------



## J★J♥ (May 3, 2014)

I bet next time we see Mouten he will be huge like his father


----------



## Zeit (May 3, 2014)

Part six already? It'll be interesting to see what happens when we finally catch up with the raws at the end of next week. 

Where do people reckon Gaimou ranks size wise with people we've seen so far? Around Moubu/Kanmei or even taller?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Actually we will be caught up tomorrow if all goes well. Or sometime next week if Kingdom isn't on a break this week like every other manga.


----------



## Zeit (May 3, 2014)

Yeah you're right actually, if MJ get 384 translated today and 385 tomorrow then we'll be caught up, was thinking there was a bit more left in the raws. What day does Kingdom actually come out?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Hmmmmmm, I think I heard that it comes out on Thursdays in Japan. But, I've noticed that the Chinese raws come out on Saturdays usually and the Japanese ones like on Tuesday. 

So I'm not quite sure, someone else probably knows better.


----------



## Zeit (May 3, 2014)

Guess we'll find out next week.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 3, 2014)

Moe separating himself from the test as _the_ ultimate Ousen fan 

Part 6


----------



## Veggie (May 3, 2014)

Chapter 384 out yet? I want to see Shin's duel badly


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> I bet next time we see Mouten he will be huge like his father



Mouten should peak at Tou-size, at best. He'd look a bit ridiculous if he ended up as a monster.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 3, 2014)

Who the fuck is rating this thread with 1 star ?


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

TF have released 378: Ch.157

They're only releasing two tomorrow, due to work (who works on a Sunday?).


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Could be that they want to do 5 chapters next week and catch up like that. Or 6 now that 386 seems to be out.


----------



## J★J♥ (May 3, 2014)

I don't get it why would someone hate kingdom so much that every time new thread is made he rates it with one star.
It's probably because he is too stupid for me to understand him, someone explain his motives.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

384 is out: Link removed


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Woah, you must of been waiting for this one, usually I'm the first one who notices the new chapter.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

Totally figured his second in command would be a great strategist. 
He pretty much crippled the Hi Shin unit in a single move.

 The only thing I don't understand is, why he didn't kill her on the spot.
Hopefully it isn't for the usual reason, that women shouldn't be captured by the enemy soldiers alive.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Capturing an enemy strategist for intelligence is pretty important you know. And I'm sure Gaimou would enjoy a gift like this...


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Gaimou 
Damn he's strong then. Shin did well, but he was hanging on and would have been killed. I guess we can put Gaimou in the top 6 combat fighters then, with Houken, Moubu, Kanmei, Ouki and Renpa.

Ten 
Well.....


----------



## Zeit (May 3, 2014)

Nice to see both Gaimou and Shin get hype, like I figured Shin's a bit held back with the glaive for the time being. 

Ten getting kidnapped was unexpected but then again not guarding her has been a bit of a weakness for the Hi Shin Unit excusable only by the fact they've probably not ever been put in a position where she was in danger.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Capturing an enemy strategist for intelligence is pretty important you know. And I'm sure Gaimou would enjoy a gift like this...




True, but she isn't high ranking enough for the enemy to consider her that important or informed on the big picture, even if we readers know otherwise.
Considering the advantage Wei has in this battle, it hardly seems worth the effort, imo.

The Gaimou thing, would go under the reason I don't want to consider. 
Shin doesn't need to be NTR'd by him.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Let's just come out and say it. Ten is gonna bleed.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> True, but she isn't high ranking enough for the enemy to consider her that important or informed on the big picture, even if we readers know otherwise.
> Considering the advantage Wei has in this battle, it hardly seems worth the effort, imo.
> 
> The Gaimou thing, would go under the reason I don't want to consider.
> Shin doesn't need to be NTR'd by him.



But she managed to restore order on her side of the battlefield and push them back. He knew if he took Ten, Qin would lose far more than their momentum.

Also, are there pages missing?

First its 15 pages, then it looks like something was skipped between pages 3-7?

Yep, there is a page missing, between 4 and 5. Just checked the raw.


----------



## Veggie (May 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> 384 is out: Link removed



Tha nd for the link bro, great chapter. Shin did great with the Glaive.


Oh poor Ten


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

He would have killed Ten if she was a guy. But he's cocky/arrogant and probably thinks he's taken her out of the picture + provided Gaimou with a gift.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

I honestly thought Gaimou would wreck Shin's shit.

Shin held on for far too long, IMO.

This is the guy hyped to have said could end Renpa or Ouki.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Hmm, I wonder will Hara go there. I really don't see it happening, but I dunno maybe it will.

Well Gaimou is quite skilled so I don't think Ten has that much to worry... I really didn't see this one coming.

I wonder how will Shin deal with possibly losing Ten or will they recapture her before shes taken away.
I don't think its going to be pretty.

Hype from ally soldiers doesn't count for shit tho, Shin did pretty well against Gaimou, but was clearly outclassed badly.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

Kyoukai might considering she's flanked them.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Moe said:


> I honestly thought Gaimou would wreck Shin's shit.
> 
> Shin held on for far too long, IMO.
> 
> This is the guy hyped to have said could end Renpa or Ouki.



To be fair it was one sided dominance for the most part. Actually quite similar to Tou vs Rinbukun. There was quite a few clashes, Shin pushed Gaimou back slightly once (Rinbukun did the same to Tou I think). 

Then someone commented on the many clashes, saying Rinbukun/Shin were hanging on. And unlike Rinbukun, Shin actually got thrown straight off his horse.

If anything, Gaimou beat Shin on points, more than Tou beat Rinbukun. Difference being obviously Tou landed the 'KO' blow.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

I think there was 2 clear indications of Gaimou being still quite a bit superior to Shin, firstly Shin wasn't able to handle a full power clash with him without being thrown away and then we see Shin being completely exhausted where as Gaimou hasn't even broken a sweat yet.

Now I really need to see Shihaku vs Ouhon. 
It isn't looking to good for the Hi Shin unit, commander losing a duel, Sosui got taken out and now they lost Ten too. Don't think they are winning this one.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Moe said:


> Kyoukai might considering she's flanked them.



If Kyoukai can sneak in and somehow clash with Gaimou, we might see him compare Shin/Kyoukai to Ouki/Kyou.


----------



## Sphyer (May 3, 2014)

Ten really needs to stop getting herself captured. Second time this has happened 

Gaimou clashing with shin reminded me of when Tou clashed with Kouyoku too. Guess the new generation can at least hold their own for a brief while.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Looks like this arc might just be what I hoped - a Qin ass kicking. It's a perfect way to set up the later Wei arc. 
Damn the arc is about to hot up and we go down to 1 chapter a week 

I just can't see how Qin can get out of this without reinforcements.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

Well, to me the hype seems as legit as they come.

The guy is being portrayed as an intelligent observer and he has been at Gaimou's side when he was up against Renpa or Ouki.
He was also shown openly mocking Gaimou's stupidity, so I doubt his assessment can be dismissed as  boasting about his generals strength.
To top it all of you have Shin comparing him to his experience with Renpa and stating Gaimou is the real deal.

The only way for it to have more credibility is if Renpa confirmed it or Hara put it in one of those Author comment boxes, imo.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

I don't think Gaimou ever fought Ouki or Renpa since it was said in the chapter that Shin was actually the guy who put up the most fight like ever against him. Which would mean that Ouki never fought the guy since Ouki is still easily above Shin.

But yeah, Gaimou could be around Renpa's level of strength.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Well, to me the hype seems as legit as they come.
> 
> The guy is being portrayed as an intelligent observer and he has been at Gaimou's side when he was up against Renpa or Ouki.
> He was also shown openly mocking Gaimou's stupidity, so I doubt his assessment can be dismissed as  boasting about his generals strength.
> ...



I think Gaimou's portrayal has been more of a top-level fighter, but someone with very little intelligence/instinct/leadership qualities. His lieutenant is obviously a strategist, but I wouldn't say anything amazing. Not on the level of a Fuuki or Chousou, for eg. Just your typical General-strategist. 

We haven't yet seen anything to suggest Gaimou is up there with the likes of Moubu as an overall General, yet.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 3, 2014)

I got the impression that while he did not fight Ouki or Renpa in a duel, their armies did clash each other.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

Edward Newgate said:


> I got the impression that while he did not fight Ouki or Renpa in a duel, their armies did clash each other.



Basically this. The strategist basically implied that if they had dueled, Gaimou would have come out on top.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Moe said:


> Basically this. The strategist basically implied that if they had dueled, Gaimou would have come out on top.



Which I wouldn't use as gospel. Every state is bias to their own. All we can really guarantee is that Gaimou is on their combat-levels. 

It'll be interesting to see the levels of Rihabakun, Reiou and Shihaku. And even Gohoumei, because I don't think we really know what he's capable of. Though we may have to wait for that.


----------



## Quuon (May 3, 2014)

Props to Shin for holding on as long as he did.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

The Strategist pretty much out right stated that Ouki+Renpa+others avoided fighting him. So first off thats confirmation they never fought(at least not more then once), and of course implying that Ouki+Renpa actively avoided him.  

I say implied as its not confirmed they ever went to war with each other, but chances are Renpa or Ouki given all the wars im sure they had would of clashed with him at least once.(Not 1v1 but as gene reals of opposing armys)



Kanki Is God said:


> Which I wouldn't use as gospel. Every state is bias to their own. All we can really guarantee is that Gaimou is on their combat-levels.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see the levels of Rihabakun, Reiou and Shihaku. And even *Gohoumei*, because I don't think we really know what he's capable of. Though we may have to wait for that.



On that topic. His teacher wants to kill Tou, so Gohou may be more of a fighter then we first thought.

First impressions being he is not a fighter as far as i was concerned.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Reiou is a strategist that was confirmed in chapter 382. But he still wants to kill Tou, I take it that hes going to use Ranbihaku for this or at least try.

Shihaku still hasn't even said anything in the manga, I really hope we get to him soon.


----------



## Coruscation (May 3, 2014)

It was great to see some recognition for Shin from a true top class fighter. Kouyoku got it in a melee mixed with some single combat against Tou and his army back in the coalition war arc and this is a two years later Shin. He has more than earned it by this point. Gaimou is clearly the real deal but I certainly don't put my full faith in the idea that he would have beaten Ouki or Renpa if they had ever dueled. I rather think that Gaimou is just more famous for being a single combat general-killer than the more well-rounded Ouki or Renpa and thus may have been thought of as a stronger warrior. But as we know even Houken who is utterly single-mindedly focused on personal strength was not able to beat Ouki. 

It is a bit hard to wrap one's mind around seeing Shin fighting like this against someone who is quite possibly stronger than Duke Hyou or Tou. It means he's really ready to start competing against the true elite of people even greater than Rinko's caliber. I don't think it's too early at all considering he is the frontline warrior type of commander and he needs that level of strength if he is to support Sei as a trusted general very shortly from now. But it's still so unusual. It's one of the things I love most about Kingdom, the constant sense of progression and growth. It doesn't have the same ups-and-downs feel that a manga like One Piece does for its main characters, where they often go from looking like crap to suddenly whooping their enemies. It plays its concepts straight all the way through and doesn't deceive the reader. It's so much more satisfying to read.

It's from a few chapters back now but I wonder how strong that Ranbihaku guy is. Probably not stronger than Tou I would assume but the hype about giving Ouki trouble should be legit since it came from Tou himself. Strange thing being that Kyou could hardly give Ouki trouble and yet Ranbihaku supposedly gave it to both of them. I assume he's talking combat wise and not army vs army. Maybe it happened when Ouki wasn't quite as strong as how we know him. If Gaimou is stronger than Tou and that spear-wielder is also extremely strong, it's absolutely insane how strong Wei are this time. Two Tou/Duke Hyou level fighters, two elite level strategists and one unknown that may be a mixture of both. People like Ouki's army commanders even being present feels like throwing tennis balls against a ten feet wall of steel with this kind of opposition, so much do they pale against the hype of the enemies. If there was ever a time to wonder how Qin stands the slightest chance at winning it is now.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

Yup. I agree with walrus on that issue.
Also Gaimou's armies definitely clashed with Ouki's and Renpa's.
 Otherwise the whole avoidance comment makes zero sense.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> On that topic. His teacher wants to kill Tou, so Gohou may be more of a fighter then we first thought.
> 
> First impressions being he is not a fighter as far as i was concerned.



I'm not sure about that. Don't forget Wei have a long way to go yet. I can see Reiou dying in this arc against Tou, but Qin still retreat. And then when Qin go to invade Wei they'll be against Gohoumei, Rihabakun (similar to Riboku/Houken), Shihaku and Gaimou.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Yea Shin is a beast.

Although his growth will slow down a lot very soon. Otherwise EoS he could solo Ouki+Renpa with one arm.



Kanki Is God said:


> I'm not sure about that. Don't forget Wei have a long way to go yet. I can see Reiou dying in this arc against Tou, but Qin still retreat. And then when Qin go to invade Wei they'll be against Gohoumei, Rihabakun (similar to Riboku/Houken), Shihaku and Gaimou.



I am on the Qin will lose band wagon, and even if they don't it will be because Wei retreats cause of reinforcements from like Ousen or somebody. 

So i don't expect any Wei general to die(The Main ones at least), but Gaimou now has his hands on ten so that increases his chances of getting the Axe. 

The Spear guy, Gohoumei are the ones i think are the safest. 

His Teacher and Ranbi might get killed by Tou but i highly doubt it, maybe tou will kill Ranbii and thats it. *But who knows Qin might win this and kill everyone da hell if i know. *


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Shin should reach his physical prime when hes like 25-30. After that it's only going to be about experience.

I wonder will we ever see a scene where Shin gets up from bed and talks about how much his back aches in the cold and how he misses his youth.
Don't think I ever seen a main character that goes from being a kid to a full grown adult during the series, that's why I'm very interested in Shin as a character.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Shin should reach his physical prime when hes like 25-30. After that it's only going to be about experience.
> 
> I wonder will we ever see a scene where Shin gets up from bed and talks about how much his back aches in the cold and how he misses his youth.
> *Don't think I ever seen a main character that goes from being a kid to a full grown adult during the series, that's why I'm very interested in Shin as a character*.



Goku?

Although he was always a kid at heart.

But yea not many of those. Most Protagonist don't start off as kids and if they do they get time-skipped to being adults pretty fast. 

Only off the top of my head Goku, Gohan/Trunks(Include Anime), Wu Geng, Is Naruto and Sasuke considered men now how old are those two ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Well yeah, I forgot Goku, but he doesn't really change like that. Naruto and Sasuke are like 16 lol.

Shin will be like...at least in his late thirties at the end of Kingdom. I'm pretty sure he will change quite a bit.
Shin just kind of has to grow up, there's so much shit that's going to happen in his life. Probably something really dramatic and heartbreaking as well.

I wonder will it eventually be worth it, to become a great general of the heavens considering the people he lost to get there.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Reason I think Qin will lose (unless Qin won in the Shiji) is because Hara won't want to make it seem too easy. Atm it's basically 1 Great General against 4. Even if there's reinforcements, 2 great generals beating 4 makes even more obvious who's going to win once Qin invade Wei with 2-4 Generals + a much bigger army.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Reason I think Qin will win (unless Qin won in the Shiji) is because Hara won't want to make it seem too easy. Atm it's basically 1 Great General against 4. Even if there's reinforcements, 2 great generals beating 4 makes even more obvious who's going to win once Qin invade Wei with 2-4 Generals + a much bigger army.


IIRC This campaign wasn't mentioned in the Shiji, but in some other account. There was no mention of who won, as far as I remember. So... Hara has some room for creativity here.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well yeah, I forgot Goku, but he doesn't really change like that. Naruto and Sasuke are like 16 lol.
> 
> Shin will be like...at least in his late thirties at the end of Kingdom. I'm pretty sure he will change quite a bit.
> Shin just kind of has to grow up, there's so much shit that's going to happen in his life. Probably something really dramatic and heartbreaking as well.
> ...



Of course it will be worth it how dare you even say something like that.


*Spoiler*: __ 



It probably won't be lol, but i doubt Shin will regret the path as a whole he took. 




On the topic of Qin losing this war i think its about time they lose another battle. 

They just got a real hard fought won again the coalition which is great, but this war should not let their confidence get to high. They fought back all the other nations besides Qi, but that does not mean they now get a free pass to all of china. 

Besides the last lose was when ouki died, so time for another one.


----------



## sadino (May 3, 2014)

Gaimou's lieutenant looked pretty bad news way back from when we saw him on top of that rock.

Hell if Kyoukai wasn't there the HSU would've been defeated just like that.


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 3, 2014)

Haven't seen people post this, so I'll do: the rough translations of 385 and 386 are here: Link removed


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

lol... those translations seem to be pretty awful. Checked the first 2 pages of both chapters.
385 hasn't even been cleaned and 386 has been translated pretty poorly.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> lol... those translations seem to be pretty awful. Checked the first 2 pages of both chapters.
> 385 hasn't even been cleaned and 386 has been translated pretty poorly.



Thanks, now I don't need to even check them out.
Mangajoy is as low as I will go, when it comes to kingdom and that is mostly, so I can keep up with the discussions.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> . I rather think that Gaimou is just more famous for being a single combat general-killer than the more well-rounded Ouki or Renpa and thus may have been thought of as a stronger warrior. But as we know even Houken who is utterly single-mindedly focused on personal strength was not able to beat Ouki.



To be fair just because his own lieutenant thought he was stronger in combat, doesn't make it true. Chu thought Kanmei was superior to Moubu.



> It's from a few chapters back now but I wonder how strong that Ranbihaku guy is. Probably not stronger than Tou I would assume but the hype about giving Ouki trouble should be legit since it came from Tou himself. Strange thing being that Kyou could hardly give Ouki trouble and yet Ranbihaku supposedly gave it to both of them. I assume he's talking combat wise and not army vs army.



It's also possible that Ranbihaku gave them trouble when they were caught in the same situation Tou was in. That appears to me a common tactic from Reiou - he attacks from one side, and Ranbihaku surprise attacks from the side. 

Remember Rinko once managed to hurt Ouki, though granted his infiltration skills were pretty strong, but Ouki would still dominate him. I'd be surprised if Ranbihaku and Ouki/Kyou had gladiator-esque 1 on 1 fights. Well he might have Kyou I guess. 

But yeah I'm looking forward to seeing more of him.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> To be fair just because his own lieutenant thought he was stronger in combat, doesn't make it true.* Chu thought Kanmei was superior to Moubu.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Although true.

To be completely fair it was not arrogance on the side of Kanmeis supporters or anything. As Shouheikun said himself, one could argue that Kanmei was indeed the strongest man in all of china. So of course they would state he would win, just like Oukis supporters probably said he would win 1v1 against pretty much anyone. Cause they have seen him first hand take care of business. 

aka i agree with what you said its just hype, but at the same time we should not auto discredit the possibility either. We of course just wait and see what more he shows us, or wait for perhaps Tou or one of Oukis other vassals to possibly weigh in as well.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Shin compared the strength of Gaimou's blow to Renpa's. I'd say that's the most accurate and reliable confirmation of Gaimou's strength right now.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

I forgot to mention it was funny to see Shin get sent flying. 

For a second i thought they were about to have a even clash(which i thought would be bull shit if the hype was to be taken even a little serious), but then the next panel  

Not that i have anything against Shin i love him, but seeing him get a little ass beating never hurts.


----------



## Rob (May 3, 2014)

Poll was a total spoiler


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

I wonder, if Mougou and Shin clashed, would Shin also be under that pressure? Strength and skill are two different things remember as we saw with Kanmei/Moubu. Though perhaps Shin was talking about overall fighting ability and not just physical power when comparing the two. 

Still speculation at this point, but I'd put Gaimou at the bottom end of 'top level'. So a bit below Houken, Ouki, Moubu and Kanmei who I consider the top 4. I tend to imagine Renpa to be bottom of the old 5. 

It's still debatable as to whether Tou is in that bracket. He could be. Though gun to head I'd predict Houken > Ouki > Moubu > Kanmei > Renpa > Gaimou > Tou > Duke. As far as the elites go....



RobLucciRapes said:


> Poll was a total spoiler



I did tell you not to come here until TF are caught up. Why not read the latest TF chapter + then go to Mangajoy?
See the epic characters


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

^Well Mougou does not have any weight vs Shin unlike he had with Renpa.

So they would probably had even clashes with Mougou probably pushing him back every now and again. He won't be sending him flying off his horse thats for sure.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Mougou has the strength, but he can't keep up otherwise. Shin would probably outpace him and Shin likely has endurance on his side as well considering Mougou's advanced age.

Moubu vs Shin would be awesome, Shin would die in 2 hits, 3 if hes lucky.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

All dem weight.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Mougou has the strength, but he can't keep up otherwise. Shin would probably outpace him and Shin likely has endurance on his side as well considering Mougou's advanced age.
> 
> Moubu vs Shin would be awesome, Shin would die in 2 hits, 3 if hes lucky.



That is too quick, bro. I would imagine their fight to be similar to that of Gaimou and Shin. Moubu would end him quicker though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Nah, first hit breaks Shin's glaive and the second one kills him. I think Moubu is that strong.

Shin will need 4 more years and Ouki's glaive if he wants to live against Moubu.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Nah, first hit breaks Shin's glaive and the second one kills him. I think Moubu is that strong.
> 
> Shin will need 4 more years and Ouki's glaive if he wants to live against Moubu.



So what do you think would happen against Gaimou?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

They would exchange blows for a while since Gaimou wouldn't lose that badly in strength, but eventually Moubu would break him. Maybe high difficulty for Moubu, but not extreme difficulty like he had against Kanmei.

I just really don't see Shin being able to do anything against someone like Moubu or Kanmei, maybe it's the mace.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Moubu is a level above Gaimou. He's probably stronger and has more skill. 
In my own little world if I did stats for combat skills, they'd be something like:

Houken: 100
Moubu: 98
Ouki: 97
Kanmei: 97
Renpa: 94
Gaimou: 93
Tou: 92

I'd have Duke as a 89. Shin around 87 right now. Kyoukai about 92 at her absolute deepest breath like against Yuuren.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Yea Moubu would break Shins glaive in two clashes at best.

One armed, massively injured Moubu smashed through Kanmeis giant sword and the left side of his body along with it. Moubu has also probably gotten stronger not only from his fight with Kanmei but being on the front lines against Chu+whatever else he has been doing the last two years.

and of course Shin is not taking a hit from Moubus mace either so of course he dies once he gets smacked.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

In the hands of the right wielder (the glaive), I don't see a mace breaking a glaive. However, this depends on the glaive. Shin's glaive would most likely break, but Ouki's glaive would remain intact. Of course this doesn't sound logical, but I'm from speaking their world.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

I feel like speaking some heresy here. 

I think 1v1 on the ground(not on horse back)(manga plot aside) Kyoukai could kill pretty much anyone currently alive. When she goes in her deep dance i think she is just going to blitz even some of the top guys.

BUt of course what im i talking about this is a manga its just the way the author portrays her speed. I just have a hard time seeing even someone like Kanmei actually hitting her with his mace before she shunpos behind him and thrusts her blade in his neck.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (May 3, 2014)

I wonder what prime Ouki, Renpa stats would look. Would they be any different? You can say they have weight and experience to compensate but I imagine their strength must've been at least a point or two higher.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

I don't think Ouki was really past his prime when he fought Houken, he seemed to be in top shape tbh.
Don't think Ouki was even 50 years old.

Renpa tho, hes in his sixties so I guess he was actually stronger in his prime.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

^Renpa is like in his 60s now right? 

So yea his physical stats should be increased significantly in his prime. The question is does it outweigh the experience/Weight gain?

Probably would depend on the opponent.

Edit:Well Lazor has spoken renpa is a old man lol.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

I doubt Ouki's strength had declined. He didn't seem old, really. And he trained. This is manga where we have 65 year olds fighting on horse back lol.

Someone like Choutou definitely wasn't in his physical prime. Though probably was in his 'General-prime'.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

I don't think age affects anyone until they reach like Genpou or Saitaku tier and neither were fighters to begin with.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

I really want to see Kanki fight 1v1 one. I wonder what hidden tricks he has to humiliate his opponent.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

Well Mougou did say that Renpa was still in top physical condition so I don't think age had affected him that much. 

In his prime he was probably like 1 stat point higher in strength, doubt it's anything more than that.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

If Moubu's Mace should smash through Kanmei's with all his strength, then Shin's glaive gets decimated. He doesn't yet have the skill to make up for it like Houken probably could.

I would like to see more contrasting weapon-fights. Tou vs Rinbukun was sword vs glaive and the sword's skill won out. But glaive or sword vs mace would be pretty interesting. Going by Kanmei's statement for eg, Tou wouldn't last 5 seconds in a 1 on 1 fight vs Moubu. The second the weapons clash, the sword is in pieces.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 3, 2014)

A sword is a bad match up on horseback against a glaive or a mace. Tou would probably run into some problems if he didn't outclass his opponent as much as he did against Rinbukun.

Mace is really the killer weapon out there, no blade will have a good time going against a mace, especially if someone like Moubu is using it.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2014)

Does anyone want to see more of Ten's clan (forget if she is the only left or not)? I feel like she's just a prop nowadays, Shin and Kyoukai have their own agenda and goals, Ten is just the strategist mascot. Having a few members of her clan show up may fix that.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

Then again Rihabakun had a glaive and that seemed to be a tie, and that was without any warning that he was under attack.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Does anyone want to see more of Ten's clan (forget if she is the only left or not)? I feel like she's just a prop nowadays, Shin and Kyoukai have their own agenda and goals, Ten is just the strategist mascot. Having a few members of her clan show up may fix that.



Ten's mountain tribe was wiped out by Yotanwa. She is the sole survivor.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

I'm not that keen on Ten. She's alright - nothing wrong with her, she just doesn't interest me that much. I think she gets a good amount of attention. I'm sure she'll get more too, as she steps out on her own a bit more and becomes a General under Shin.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2014)

Moe said:


> Ten's mountain tribe was wiped out by Yotanwa. She is the sole survivor.


Thank you.


Kanki Is God said:


> I'm not that keen on Ten. She's alright - nothing wrong with her, she just doesn't interest me that much. I think she gets a good amount of attention. I'm sure she'll get more too, as she steps out on her own a bit more and becomes a General under Shin.


I can't really see her getting into anything mind-blowing, as you said, she'll probably focus on her career a bit more, maybe help in a few key strategies at best. Thankfully we have generals like Kanki and Ousen to make up for that.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

So is a certain very thirsty General going to ravage Ten or will the Author not go that route? 

More importantly how would you feel about that? I'm with Kanki in that im pretty neutral when it comes to Ten, but i don't think we need to go that route with tens character and her relationship with Shin that would happen later. 

Would be funny if Ten mentions it, and Gaimou just rejects the thought cause Ten is not his type.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

I don't think she'll be raped. This Gaimou fella might surprise us by not actually being a bastard. Granted he did kill his comrades, but he doesn't seem pure evil really. Plus, Hara has never been Berserk-crazy before.

I'd like Kyoukai to save her. If you look at the M3, Kyokai/Shin and Ten/Shin have a big bond, but there's not much of one between Kyoukai + Ten - the most they've ever done together is when Kyoukai wrote a letter to allow her entry into the strategy school. If Kyoukai can maybe sneak in and save Ten we might see their relationship have a bit more depth to it.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> So is a certain very thirsty General going to ravage Ten or will the Author not go that route?
> 
> More importantly how would you feel about that? I'm with Kanki in that im pretty neutral when it comes to Ten, but i don't think we need to go that route with tens character and her relationship with Shin that would happen later.
> 
> Would be funny if Ten mentions it, and Gaimou just rejects the thought cause Ten is not his type.


Doubt she'll get ravished, that guy doesn't seem like he'd want someone like Ten.
And I ordinarily don't ship, but I'd rather have Shin and Kyoukai hook up, Shin and Ten just seems too awkward.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I don't think she'll be raped. This Gaimou fella might surprise us by not actually being a bastard. Granted he did kill his comrades, but he doesn't seem pure evil really. Plus, Hara has never been Berserk-crazy before.
> 
> I'd like Kyoukai to save her. If you look at the M3, Kyokai/Shin and Ten/Shin have a big bond, but there's not much of one between Kyoukai + Ten - the most they've ever done together is when Kyoukai wrote a letter to allow her entry into the strategy school. *If Kyoukai can maybe sneak in and save Ten we might see their relationship have a bit more depth to it*.



Yea their relationship development would be nice. 

I wonder when Kyoukai will tell Ten to step away from her man(Shin) or vice versa.



Issho D Tea said:


> Doubt she'll get ravished, that guy doesn't seem like he'd want someone like Ten.
> And I ordinarily don't ship, *but I'd rather have Shin and Kyoukai hook up,* Shin and Ten just seems too awkward.



Agreed. 

Also their kid would be a War God that makes Houken look like a chump.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Also their kid would be a War God that makes Houken look like a chump.


I love how Kyoukai thought children were made, that was funny as hell when she asked Shin to have his kid, like it was an every day chore. 
Speaking of, don't think Houken will show up here, we have a good set of new opponents for Shin and co to fight, let's give some other antagonists a chance to shine.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> I love how Kyoukai thought children were made, that was funny as hell when she asked Shin to have his kid, like it was an every day chore.
> Speaking of, don't think Houken will show up here, we have a good set of new opponents for Shin and co to fight, let's give some other antagonists a chance to shine.



Dude Houken is already on his way to the battlefield. 

Shin, Tou, Ouhon, Kyoukai, Three of the fire dragons, and that other guy forgot his name the one who attacked Tou. 

We got 8 people who i am sure Houkens inner demon wants gone. The real question is when shall Houken show up.


----------



## Coruscation (May 3, 2014)

> I think 1v1 on the ground(not on horse back)(manga plot aside) Kyoukai could kill pretty much anyone currently alive. When she goes in her deep dance i think she is just going to blitz even some of the top guys.



I don't think that's too far from the truth. Kyoukai gave Houken a measure of trouble waaay back in the Zhao war arc. A small measure and Houken was not going all out but one nonetheless. Houken said he felt the sensation of dancing with death for the briefest of moments (or some such) when she was assaulting him with her deepest dance at the time. The Shiyuu later flat out beat her in that same dance if not an even stronger one depending on if she trained and grew stronger since the encounter with Houken. Then, with her new ultimate dance, she outright destroyed the Shiyuu. Even though she IIRC promised never to use it again I am sure that Kyoukai in that state would be a dangerous adversary for absolutely anyone. Not enough to beat the triple A guys since it would just be kind of silly but someone like say Duke Hyou or Tou would be in for a terrifying fight that they may not emerge alive from.

We have to remember that Kyoukai's weakness is endurance, it's the complete opposite of Shin who has practically endless endurance. She tries to beat the enemy in like 1 minute of relentless attacking and if that fails she's done. Thus she could very well be on par with Ouki, Moubu, Kanmei, Houken or Renpa in speed, strength and skill when drawing most deeply but they could outlast her even if her dance was three times as long.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Dude Houken is already on his way to the battlefield.
> 
> Shin, Tou, Ouhon, Kyoukai, Three of the fire dragons, and that other guy forgot his name the one who attacked Tou.
> 
> We got 8 people who i am sure Houkens inner demon wants gone. The real question is when shall Houken show up.


We have so many chapters and characters show up all at once. Hopefully it's not too cramped.
Any idea how Shin will fare against Houken this time? It would be nice to see Kyoukai have another clash against Houken as well.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I don't think that's too far from the truth. Kyoukai gave Houken a measure of trouble waaay back in the Zhao war arc. A small measure and Houken was not going all out but one nonetheless. Houken said he felt the sensation of dancing with death for the briefest of moments (or some such) when she was assaulting him with her deepest dance at the time. The Shiyuu later flat out beat her in that same dance if not an even stronger one depending on if she trained and grew stronger since the encounter with Houken. Then, with her new ultimate dance, she outright destroyed the Shiyuu. Even though she IIRC promised never to use it again I am sure that Kyoukai in that state would be a dangerous adversary for absolutely anyone. Not enough to beat the triple A guys since it would just be kind of silly but someone like say Duke Hyou or Tou would be in for a terrifying fight that they may not emerge alive from.
> 
> *We have to remember that Kyoukai's weakness is endurance, it's the complete opposite of Shin who has practically endless endurance. She tries to beat the enemy in like 1 minute of relentless attacking and if that fails she's done. Thus she could very well be on par with Ouki, Moubu, Kanmei, Houken or Renpa in speed, strength and skill when drawing most deeply but they could outlast her even if her dance was three times as long*.



Yea thats her main weakness although at this point its probably no where near as bad as it use to be, as long as she does not go all the way into her dance. She may in the future become like the Shiyuu in her own way, so the dance does not even drain her that much because shes more in a constant low level state of it perhaps kind of like Goku/Gohan with Super Saiyain during the cell arc. Regardless She is kind of like Ran from ToG. 

Ran can power-up for about 5 minutes to a really high level, but if the opponent can outlast him he is 100 percent screwed. 

So the question is with people around Kyoukais general level(just like with Ran) can the Top guys really block Kyoukai going all out blitz mode. Cause its not like they know she has a time limit. They might just try to fight like normal you know trading blows and getting a feel of the opponents fighting style/habits, but instead they get well a sword in their chest.  Edit: Although i guess that goes with most people in manga, if Luffy goes balls to the walls against most people from the start(Gear Stacking and the like) he could end the fights pretty quickly. 

On a horse i can see Kanmei dealing with Kyoukais sword slashes just fine, but on the ground im not so confident he can actually react and probably turn around to block kyoukai quickly dashing behind him. At least in a out of manga sitting.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 3, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Thus she could very well be on par with Ouki, Moubu, Kanmei, Houken or Renpa in speed, strength and skill when drawing most deeply but they could outlast her even if her dance was three times as long.



I don't see how she could match them in strength and I'd say she'd prolly outdo them in speed.


----------



## Kanki (May 3, 2014)

A bad enemy for Kyoukai would probably be Tou. His offensive speed is probably the best of all generals we've seen, and he's arguably the most skillful too.


----------



## Coruscation (May 3, 2014)

> I don't see how she could match them in strength and I'd say she'd prolly outdo them in speed.



Well, not strength exactly, but the force behind her blows (with speed meaning how quickly she moves around rather than how fast her weapon moves when she strikes). When in the dance her strikes hit with far more force due to the sheer velocity (like Gear Second). Although most likely Moubu or Kanmei with their giants' strength would be able to receive her blows without giving any ground, perhaps Ouki or Renpa would be more affected, stagger or be pushed back a bit, that sort of thing, thus being matched in striking force. They'd be faster in speed than Moubu/Kanmei to make up for it.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> We have so many chapters and characters show up all at once. Hopefully it's not too cramped.
> Any idea how Shin will fare against Houken this time? It would be nice to see Kyoukai have another clash against Houken as well.



A kyoukai+Shin tag team would be nice at some point in the near future, and of course this time shin will pull his weight and more some. 

The reason for said tag team would be to drive houken off cause Shin(hopefully) would be modest enough to know he cant beat him solo, or kyou knowing shin is a stubborn idot jumps in despite his objections. Although kyoukai seems to be giving little fucks lately and just eats she might just watch shin get a beating from houken lol.

As for your question I think it will be simliar to this chapter but due to shins weight he probably wont be sent flying off his horse. Houkens superior skill with his weapon would become obvious from the get go, shin might even decide to use his sword either way he will get overwhelmed but wont get tossed aside like in the past.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> A bad enemy for Kyoukai would probably be Tou. His offensive speed is probably the best of all generals we've seen, and he's arguably the most skillful too.


Speed, defense, and stamina are the best tools against her imo. Have we seen how she'd fare against armored opponents?


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> A kyoukai+Shin tag team would be nice at some point in the near future, and of course this time shin will pull his weight and more some.
> 
> The reason for said tag team would be to drive houken off cause Shin(hopefully) would be modest enough to know he cant beat him solo, or kyou knowing shin is a stubborn idot jumps in despite his objections. Although kyoukai seems to be giving little fucks lately and just eats she might just watch shin get a beating from houken lol.


I think Shin has gained some level-headedness (not much though), so he wouldn't charge into fights against opponents who he knows are well above him...hopefully. Does Houken have his arm working again or did Hyou take it to the grave with him?


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> As for your question I think it will be simliar to this chapter but due to shins weight he probably wont be sent flying off his horse. Houkens superior skill with his weapon would become obvious from the get go, shin might even decide to use his sword either way he will get overwhelmed but wont get tossed aside like in the past.


I like how the characters' strength is built up over years of experience, not in a two hour or month long training, Shin has had to work hard in order to get where he is now. It's a nice change of pace from some other manga.


----------



## Mystic Ballad (May 3, 2014)

Ten is an idiot in her own way. Shin should have some special bodyguard (archer unit perhaps) for her if she want to be on frontline. Come on, how come a pure strategist like Ten went too near to frontline like that? If that keeps hapening, Ten will be the first HSU letnant to die.


----------



## conorgenov (May 4, 2014)

OH SHIT if shin finds out he's going to flip the table


----------



## Patrick (May 4, 2014)

Yes, very smart. Kidnap the person closest to the main character. That will not cause the guy you already aknowledged as strong to go into full rage and turn into the monster who could fight off Houken, the strongest fighter alive at the current point in the story. This all while you could finish this guy off now before he becomes a problem, eradicating one of the most important people of the offensive, turning the tides of battle heavily in your favor. 

I hope shagging Ten is worth it because Gaimou might very well lose his life for it.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

patrick4life said:


> Yes, very smart. Kidnap the person closest to the main character. That will not cause the guy you already aknowledged as strong to go into full rage and turn into the monster who could fight off Houken, the strongest fighter alive at the current point in the story. This all while you could finish this guy off now before he becomes a problem, eradicating one of the most important people of the offensive, turning the tides of battle heavily in your favor.
> 
> I hope shagging Ten is worth it because Gaimou might very well lose his life for it.



It would be horrible for this to happen. Fortunately I don't think it will.


----------



## Patrick (May 4, 2014)

Probably not gonna happen, but just to show how awfully retarded kidnapping Ten is.


----------



## J★J♥ (May 4, 2014)

Next 50 chapters should be hantai of this Dragon Guy raping ten.


----------



## Morglay (May 4, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Next 50 chapters should be hantai of this Dragon Guy raping ten.


----------



## Zeit (May 4, 2014)

patrick4life said:


> Yes, very smart. Kidnap the person closest to the main character. That will not cause the guy you already aknowledged as strong to go into full rage and turn into the monster who could fight off Houken, the strongest fighter alive at the current point in the story. This all while you could finish this guy off now before he becomes a problem, eradicating one of the most important people of the offensive, turning the tides of battle heavily in your favor.
> 
> I hope shagging Ten is worth it because Gaimou might very well lose his life for it.



"Might very well"

He'd be facing Shin and Kyoukai at the same time, might doesn't come into it. There's only how painful they can make that death.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Its quite smart to kidnap the enemy strategist since he/she usually has the best information of the battle plan.

I wonder what will Gaimou do to Ten, I don't see her getting raped. 

What if Ten dies? That would be interesting.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

Gaimou will use the shocker on Ten.

Like KIG has been saying its nice to see the HSU be humbled, however I'm having a hard time taking Gaimou seriously... except for how badass his glaive is.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

I dunno, Gaimou doesn't feel like hes really evil or anything. Seems like a nice dude who likes his women.

He wont rape Ten, but he will use his skills to make her enjoy it.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

We used to joke about having a Subforum before, but the volume and frequency of posters and new folk is increasing exponentially.

There's so many topics to discuss now and it'd prevent the same debates from happening every time 3-4 new folk catch up. 

Might be time to propose a serious request


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

I wonder how will the activity change once we catch up. Will it increase or decrease?


----------



## Bungee Gum (May 4, 2014)

Why would it increase? That's a dumb question


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Hmm? Because the people who read the raws would join the discussion? There's a bunch of people who haven't been talking here because they read the raws.

I don't think its a dumb question at all.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

Goova said:


> Why would it increase? That's a dumb question



^ Found a one-star voter 

Nice bait LW


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 4, 2014)

Im back 
Reading TF i see 1 year remains until the end conflict of ryo fui and sei will happen  can't wait for that.

On mangajoy latest chapter...

Shin is very powerful indeed but that  Gaimou is also strong as fuck !!!

Shin is a tiger ? Could this be a foreshadow of tiger of chu vs tiger of qin ?
Who the fucks are this so called tigers of China ?

Ten should be saved or Gaimou will rape her


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Tiger and dragon are fairly generic nicknames for famous people in China, so that's hardly a foreshadowing.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

By young tiger he just meant that Shin is a fierce young warrior just like a tiger. Don't think there's any meaning to that.

Tho Shin could use a legendary nickname like that. What would be a good name for Shin...


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Tiger and dragon are fairly generic nicknames for famous people in China, so that's hardly a foreshadowing.





lazorwalrus said:


> By young tiger he just meant that Shin is a fierce young warrior just like a tiger. Don't think there's any meaning to that.
> 
> Tho Shin could use a legendary nickname like that.





I thought they where mostly gone ( they the tigers )
But it seems a new tiger has appeared ( something rare )


Someone in the past or more then just 1 was a tiger and this guy saw in Shin the same thing that he found in another place ( a different tiger )


I think its obivous....


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

I don't think it counts as much that he called Shin a tiger.

Pretty sure he just means that a new promising fighter has appeared.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

By 'tiger' he just means a promising soldier who's on or has the potential to be on a great level.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

I love how Gaimou commented on Shin's weight.

Shin's blows are always heavier then anyone expects.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Shin said:


> I thought they where mostly gone ( they the tigers )
> But it seems a new tiger has appeared ( something rare )
> 
> 
> ...




Seems to me he thought China was boring, now that the Qin's six and the old great heavens were gone.
Now he is excited, since a new interesting opponent has appeared on the battlefield.
Its more of a metaphor for the changing of the guard, than a title for an existing group, if you ask me.

P.S 
Seems Ten will loose her virginity before Shin does.
Actually Shin is pretty behind on that department, considering his age and time period.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

Why does every time . .Every time Ten's Location gets discovered. . she gets captured . . 

this is probably the 3rd time it has happened


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

I can't actually remember the last time Ten was captured


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

Pretty sure Kaine almost captured her too.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

I guess it's Ten being too naive, her place is not in the front lines but yet she goes there.
Then again Shin had to duel Gaimou so Shin couldn't exactly lead the men himself.

The Hi Shin unit needs to rethink their shit, this can't always happen that Ten has to risk her life since the other guys are too busy to command. They need someone else to take the lead while Shin is occupied so they don't have to use Ten like that.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Its because ten doesn't know her place is in the tent, making plans and sandwiches for the others.
So she goes to places, where she is helpless and her guards are mere fodder, since I don't think we even know their  names.

Walrus, she can be on the battlefield like that, but Shin needs to assign noteworthy bodyguards to her.
We have already seen, that's how the purely strategic generals roll in the manga.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 4, 2014)

Ten needs to be either in shins back pocket or someone should buy that bitch a telescope


All this getting captured is embarrassing


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

Stick Denyu and Ryuusen with her. They look the bodyguard-type.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

if they had enough blood lust . .Ten could have been Dead already. . 
she is lucky enough that the Enemy slightly valued her life and tried to capture her instead

Hi Shin Unit has never realize how vulnerable and defenseless they're strategist is . . 
putting the Big boys like Duke Hyou army in her shoulders would be better. .or at least it'll make her safer


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

*Fodder*: Shin, sir. Its. . . the lieutenant... she ...was..

*Shin*: What?!?!? Did something happen to Kyoukai?

*Fodder*: No, sir. Its -
*Shin*: Sosui?!?!? Were his wounds. . .

*Fodder*: Captain,  it was Ten. She was captured by the enemy!!!.

*Shin*: Oooh, must be Thursday.


----------



## Lezu (May 4, 2014)

All of you wanted to see Shin using his instincts in battle. Well, I think we're close in seeing it now.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

Now that i think about it . . .this is also partially Shin's fault 

for answering the challenge . . letting they're guard down ( as always ) 
and Ten payed the price :ho


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Shin had to duel Gaimou tho, do you think they would of been better off if they just let a monster like Gaimou destroy their units? No, they would of gotten destroyed and if Shin had defeated Gaimou there, the chances of winning the entire battle would have increased a lot.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

They could Strategically Raided him . .Shin had Ten . . 

there was no reason for answering the challenge of Duel .. 
but i guess it was Inevitable . . because of Shin's Desire of wanting to get a step at the top. . killing a Great General in a Duel was a Stepping Stone . . so it was Inevitable indeed

but if they just raided Gaimou's 5,000 army . .or was it 1,000 . .they could have won that . . I was pretty sure they were surrounded too. . if it comes down to it . .
have Kyoukai + Shin vs Gaimou and Gang battle on it . . like what they did to Houken before


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

I don't think Gaimou would of dueled Shin and Kyoukai by himself, he would of had help from the people around him.

Gaimou is a monster, you can't have someone who can cut down entire squads just running around.
Shin had to stop him right there or they would of lost much more than Sosui.
The Wei army also had people close by and the Hi Shin unit is outnumbered by like 5000 men, killing Gaimou would of been the best possible outcome tbh.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I don't think Gaimou would of dueled Shin and Kyoukai by himself, he would of had help from the people around him.
> 
> Gaimou is a monster, you can't have someone who can cut down entire squads just running around.
> Shin had to stop him right there or they would of lost much more than Sosui.
> The Wei army also had people close by and the Hi Shin unit is outnumbered by like 5000 men, killing Gaimou would of been the best possible outcome tbh.



Pretty much this. Shin didn't have much a choice, even Sosui only lasted 1 swing of the glaive


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Shin had to duel Gaimou tho, do you think they would of been better off if they just let a monster like Gaimou destroy their units? No, they would of gotten destroyed and if Shin had defeated Gaimou there, the chances of winning the entire battle would have increased a lot.



They could have retreated. If Ouki himself didn't challenge Gaimou, there's no reason why Shin had to.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

But in the end Shin only stalled him . . since Gaimou is about to retreat anyway bringing Ten with him


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Shin didn't know anything about Gaimou, only that hes the enemy general and why would they retreat when the enemy general rides out with only a 100 men in the middle of their own guys.

And they actually need to win this battle while being outnumbered, retreating wouldn't get them anywhere.

Sure it was the wrong choice looking back now, but Shin doesn't have magical foresight like that. Hes not Ousen.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

You shouldn't believe hype anyway, especially when it comes from a bias source like his own lieutenant.

Hes strong alright, but no way in hell would Renpa or Ouki lose to him, it would be a tough fight for sure, but they aren't weaker than Gaimou.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

I thought those Hype weren't completely true


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Turnipfarmers version of 379 and 380 is out, should be on Batoto soon.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

There is nothing wrong about not accepting challenges, when you have nothing to gain from them or there is a high chance of losing.
So for guys who like strategy like Ouki, I can easily see them avoiding Gaimou.
The battle against Houken really made people seem to think, that style of battle was Ouki usual modus operandi for some reason.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

Ouki hunted down Shoumou because it was an opportune time to take out a commander.

If Gaimou rode with 100 into Ouki's army, Ouki would go and chop off his fucking head too.

Sure Ouki enjoyed strategy, but he wasn't a strategist, he was a great general under the heavens in every god damn aspect 

It was an opportunity for Shin - he just wasn't strong enough to capitalize on it.


----------



## Sphyer (May 4, 2014)

Looks like in the Turnip version, Tou really was not referred to as a great general but just the commander of the army.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

From TF's translation, I actually think Qin will win this war. By the sounds of it, Qin can't begin the unification until this location is captured, so you know it will be. Hopefully it'll be because of Ousen and not those currently there.

Oh and Tou wasn't called a 'Great General' after all.


----------



## Patrick (May 4, 2014)

If it wants to end before 1000 chapters it might be a good idea to let Qin actually make progress instead of long arcs where nothing happens.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Ouki hunted down Shoumou because it was an opportune time to take out a commander.
> 
> If Gaimou rode with 100 into Ouki's army, Ouki would go and chop off his fucking head too.
> 
> ...



Shoumou was a fodder to Ouki, though.
So there was no risk involved here, to be a valid comparison.


Turnips translations are showing again how crappy mangajoy is , if they miss such a huge detail.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

Ouki didn't set out to kill Shoumou. They just crossed paths. Ouki's intention was to reach Moubu, wasn't it?

Do you guys agree with Rukuomi that Kanou is more destructive than Ouhon/Shin?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Well, his personality definitely could make him more geared at causing the enemy units more mayhem.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Ouki saw the trap that Shoumou laid out and then decided to ride out and take him out. They didn't just cross paths.

I'd say that Rokuomi and Kanou are more destructive than Shin and Ouhon, while they might not be individually as strong, their units are made up of Ouki's veterans that are used to doing these powerful charges at the enemy and breaking them down.

The Hi Shin unit still kind of lacks that, but I guess Shin could use Duke Hyou's men for a charge like that.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

Actually, Tou must now be considered a Great General since it seems Rukuomi/Ryuukoku/Kanou have gone from commander to General?

@Lazor

What plan did Shoumou have?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Shoumou used the Qin flag to fool the survivors of Mangoku's assault. Like the Hi Shin unit thought they were going to be saved, but it was actually Shoumou's army.

Read chapter 150 page 4.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Shoumou used the Qin flag to fool the survivors of Mangoku's assault. Like the Hi Shin unit thought they were going to be saved, but it was actually Shoumou's army.
> 
> Read chapter 150 page 4.



You knew that off by heart, didn't you?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

I did have to check the page lol.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

God I dunno what to say about Shoumou. He was pretty dominant over everyone and then suffered the worst raping of any General we've seen. Zhao seem to have more 'strong' Generals than virtually every other state, though few elites.

Fuuki, Chousou, Shoumou, Mangoku, Rihaku, Kyosonruu, Keisha, Gika, 

I like how all of those have had ample time to show their personalities + traits. Bar Kyosonruu I guess.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 4, 2014)

Hmm, I think Mangajoy might be taking a break for Sunday, didn't they do it last week too?


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Hmm, I think Mangajoy might be taking a break for Sunday, didn't they do it last week too?



the raw is at 386 so meh soon will be there. 

1 chapter per week holy shit...


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Shoumou was a fodder to Ouki, though.
> So there was no risk involved here, to be a valid comparison.
> .



He was fodder after Ouki raped him.  Before that....



Kanki Is God said:


> Ouki didn't set out to kill Shoumou. They just crossed paths. Ouki's intention was to reach Moubu, wasn't it?





lazorwalrus said:


> Ouki saw the trap that Shoumou laid out and then decided to ride out and take him out. They didn't just cross paths.



Indeed



Kanki Is God said:


> God I dunno what to say about Shoumou. He was pretty dominant over everyone and then suffered the worst raping of any General we've seen. Zhao seem to have more 'strong' Generals than virtually every other state, though few elites.
> 
> Fuuki, Chousou, Shoumou, Mangoku, Rihaku, Kyosonruu, Keisha, Gika,
> 
> I like how all of those have had ample time to show their personalities + traits. Bar Kyosonruu I guess.



Agreed. I love how fleshed out those generals were. Hopefully the fire dragons get the same treatment and then some.

I would love a flashback of Gaimou observing Ouki


----------



## Akatora (May 4, 2014)

and mangabird has reached the raw now.
looking forward to turnip farmer getting there


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 4, 2014)

We have arrived at the RAW .

I guess we know who is Shin's sister and who is the wife 
The Exchange should work if Gaimou values that commander.

I like this Gaimou guy. He has charisma hope he survives the war.


*PS*. Damn Kyoukai is fast.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

So...thanks for spoiling me, again, Shin 

Spoiler tag that. Most people only read Mangajoy/TF. Not everyone looks at Mangabird.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

*Mangabird 386*


*Spoiler*: __ 




Horrible translation, however; really excellent and rare moment of Shin expressing his feelings outside of ambition. I loved how Kyoukai was drawn this chapter too. She's starting to resemble the monster that was Kyou. We'll see how this exchange goes down... It would be absolutely mind blowing if this is where Ten falls.  

To see how the HSU moves on after that would be tear jerking.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

[youtube]rRJFWXHOdkk[/youtube]
I always see myself stupidly getting irritated when I watch these types of vids 

No Gohoumei/Seikai/Rukuomi/Choutou/Gembou/Rinbukun/Kyoukai. Rinko above Kyouen/Kaishibou/Gekishin/Ordo.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 4, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> *Mangabird 386*
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



After reading your spoiler, I just had to read 386. I kinda just browsed 385. VERY nice chapter. I really enjoy that Hara made their relationship more clear to us, explained what how Shin saw Ten, and what she meant to him. I'm also really digging Gaimou - I find him to be highly entertaining and easy to connect with. Nice day for dem Kingdom shippers.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

Moe has ventured over to the raw side so close to the end???

Son I am well beyond disappoint


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 4, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Moe has ventured over to the raw side so close to the end???
> 
> Son I am well beyond disappoint



Raw?

385 has translations on top, and 386 had translations within the speech bubbles.

It looks like it was done using paint by a poor translator (actually they are pretty garbage), but it was understandable.

I don't see the point of spoiling yourself with raws.


----------



## Kanki (May 4, 2014)

Mangabird is so bad, though. And you only had 2 days to wait until we're level!

Jesus. Once a week. Thank god for HxH. I'm gonna have to complete SnK/Berserk + start Toriko, Magi and FT () to make up for not having 7 Kingdom chapters.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 4, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Mangabird is so bad, though. And you only had 2 days to wait until we're level!
> 
> Jesus. Once a week. Thank god for HxH. I'm gonna have to complete SnK/Berserk + start Toriko, Magi and FT () to make up for not having 7 Kingdom chapters.



While I'd agree with your first statement, nothing much really happens in 385 and 386, so I don't really see it much as a loss considering I never intended to bother with MJ either; however, Ousen comes first. Either way, I haven't read TF yet either. I plan to do that once we've caught up so I can get clear picture.

Dude, I told you. STAY. THE. FUCK. AWAY. FROM. FT.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 4, 2014)

Thinking about pulling an LW and re-reading from chap 1 to finish for the first time


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 4, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Thinking about pulling an LW and re-reading from chap 1 to finish for the first time



I've been planning to do that once TF catches up.


----------



## Katou (May 4, 2014)

That will be good for some reminiscing :ho


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

Caught up with the Mangabird translations, thank god I'm used to bad English so 386 wasn't that hard to understand.


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 5, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Caught up with the Mangabird translations, thank god I'm used to bad English so 386 wasn't that hard to understand.



I'd rather read bad English than Chinese or Japanese


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 5, 2014)

Well abandoning the thread until at least mangajoy catches up, seems like a good choice to avoid spoilers.


----------



## Veggie (May 5, 2014)

I've not read the last couple pages so question. When is 385 released?


----------



## Katou (May 5, 2014)

So no more Published Raws for those Translator to work with. . 

*Sigh. . i took that everyday update for granted


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

Mangajoy will probably do 385 today. I read 385 and 386 on Mangabird, but they aren't done too well.
385 isn't even cleaned and the 386 translation is simply put bad.

Gotta wait a few days till we talk about them I guess.


----------



## Zeit (May 5, 2014)

Awful translations by MangaBird. 

Hopefully when TF have caught up with the raws they'll be able to get their release out the same time as everyone else and get back any share they lost.


----------



## Katou (May 5, 2014)

How many raws are published already? 
whats the latest chapter in Japan right now?
where can i get that information


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

386 is the last raw out, we are basically caught up. Mangajoy will be caught up in like 2 days and turnipfarmers probably next Sunday.


----------



## Katou (May 5, 2014)

so it ends at there . . oh well . . weekly waiting ain't as bad as Monthly waiting


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 5, 2014)

Wallachia said:


> so it ends at there . . oh well . . weekly waiting ain't as bad as Monthly waiting



Berserk please


----------



## Katou (May 5, 2014)

Ahh~ Speaking of Berserk. . 

 I need to catch up already


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 5, 2014)

Lots of new chapters to read?


----------



## Katou (May 5, 2014)

I might start back to chapter 1 since
 i totally forgot about it ( i was in chpter 50+ i think )  

I'm gonna get busy this week


----------



## sadino (May 5, 2014)

So, according to TF history says that Heki died during Hokaku's rebellion.

Heki is officially above death by this point.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

Well it could of also meant that a general died within the walls. I guess Hara just didn't want to kill Heki like that, its not exactly wrong lol.

Now he could die at any given moment.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

He escaped death. Hara really denied  history 
There is one more event that would shock the readers but Hara must decide.


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

Maybe spoiler tag that stuff guys...


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

Why? Turnipfarmers literally said it in the chapter, everyone should know it by now if they read the TF versions.

And now absolutely no one, but Hara himself knows when Heki could die of if he even dies.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

So is there anyone here who like gaimou ?
I like his personality  fucking pimp.

I wish to see Gaimou to be an example for Shin. Hell even explain that tiger stuff
( yeah I still think the tiger stuff has more meaning. )


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

Gaimou is cool, I like the fact that hes not the usual arrogant asshole type of guy.

I really, really hope he wont be killed off in this arc. I might even cry if he is.


----------



## Roman (May 5, 2014)

And to top things off I have to ask how in the blue f*** does a guy do three girls simultaneously like he seemed to do


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

Me to. I want him to live.
If it were up to me he looks like a great teacher for Shin.
And his a master at glaive.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

Freedan said:


> And to top things off I have to ask how in the blue f*** does a guy do three girls simultaneously like he seemed to do



When you have an elephant in your pants everything looks easy :rofl


----------



## Roman (May 5, 2014)

Shin said:


> When you have an elephant in your pants everything looks easy :rofl



Or perhaps three of them :rofl


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

His an awesome guy. I have the feeling he will be the only Wei dragon I like.
The strategist look's ugly and the spear guy is arrogant.


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Why? Turnipfarmers literally said it in the chapter, everyone should know it by now if they read the TF versions.
> 
> And now absolutely no one, but Hara himself knows when Heki could die of if he even dies.



They did? Must of missed it. Ignore me then.


----------



## sadino (May 5, 2014)

I was trying to joke about many times Heki escaped death's clutches already, it kinda became his own gag.

Now he even escapes real history death.Totally expecting if he dies in the manga turns out it was actually a fake report or something.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

I expect him to die once Shin becomes a general and Sei is on the throne.
Maybe doing something against Ryo Fui.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 5, 2014)

I like Gaimou as well, but I don't think he's going to make it out of this arc.  I actually don't think it's going to be Shin that kills him either.

My bet is that either Tou, Kanki, or Moubu are going to be the ones to take him out.  If it's Kanki in brutal fashion, Shin will learn more about the cost to both sides required to unite all of China.

Dat potential growth


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

Don't really know how would Kanki be able to take out someone like Gaimou, don't think Kanki has the combat ability to do that.
He could like cut his throat in his sleep I guess.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

But Kanki and Moubu are not in this war...

The only potential general that would appear is Ousen...


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

I hope that Gaimou wont die in this arc.

But anyway by the looks of it hes being built as a rival for Shin so I'm pretty sure Shin will eventually defeat him.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 5, 2014)

Shin said:


> But Kanki and Moubu are not in this war...
> 
> The only potential general that would appear is Ousen...



And I doubt he would show up considering they dedicated like half a chapter as to why he shouldn't. 

I dunno, he might just show up on his own volition, but I'm sure that that is a crime.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 5, 2014)

Shin said:


> But Kanki and Moubu are not in this war...
> 
> The only potential general that would appear is Ousen...



Ouhon explained how Ousen can't show up for a reason.  Like I said in a previous post I'm predicting Kanyou receives word the fire dragons have emerged and respond with a general.  Last we heard Kanki was on the move and not stationed anywhere.

Edit: @LW

I don't think he's being built as a rival, but rather a tool for us to measure Shin's ability at this point. He wasn't even close to being equal to Gaimou, however received praise to reaffirm his potential.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

Moe said:


> And I doubt he would show up considering they dedicated like half a chapter as to why he shouldn't.
> 
> I dunno, he might just show up on his own volition, but I'm sure that that is a crime.



I expect him to come and save Ouhon ass. That relation needs something and he had a look in the eye when the talked about Ouhon.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

I really doubt Ousen cares that much, if hes going to come there, its not because he wants to save Ouhon its because he wants to boost his own status


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

385 is on Mangajoy.

Seems like every horse Shin has is destined to die lol.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 5, 2014)

This is good development for the unit as a whole. If something happens to Ten now, things wont go back to normal. Actually even if nothing happens to Ten some shit has to change.

First time Shin has been in a position like this. At first I was a little disappointed with his reaction, but then I thought about it more and found it to be quite realistic. Shin just got beat by Gaimou and now Ten who Shin pretty much considers as his sister is kidnapped and god knows whats happening to her. And Shin is completely helpless to do anything about it.

His frustration must be immense and its no surprise that he takes it out on Kyoukai like that.
It was the first time we see Shin actually act like that towards Kyoukai.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 5, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Rinko above Kyouen/Kaishibou/Gekishin/Ordo.



Because he is


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

I don't think anything will happen to her. Hara won't go down that route. But it'll be a lesson to Shin that they're nowhere near as invincible as they thought. 

I dunno how they can get her out though. A simple hostage swap sounds a bit too simple. Perhaps they might try it, but I can see some master plan by Kyoukai saving her.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 5, 2014)

You mean giving up her delicious body to Gaimou?

I mean, someone's getting banged... But who


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

Who wants to see Ten being raped ?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 5, 2014)

Well, something has to happen to her, otherwise I'm calling bullshit.
An army wouldn't wait to interrogate an enemy strategist, while the enemy is still a threat.


----------



## Morglay (May 5, 2014)

Shin said:


> Who wants to see Ten being raped ?



*Slowly raises hand.* For plot purposes only...


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

It depends on whether Gaimou actually wants to rape her. He might not be that kind of person. Or he could find out his lieutenant is also a hostage.

Loving that front cover of Rukuomi, Shin and Ouhon, btw. Rukuomi is one of my favorite characters. This panel would have made an amazing front cover, btw:



For some reason people don't like him, but damn Kanmei was a boss.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

I like kanmei his bragging was very funny.
He was the good type of asshole.

Hope you guys like my new set


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

Moubu vs Kanmei was awesome.

I do prefer it usually when characters aren't mere 'arc villains'. I like them to be introduced, maybe referenced, and not seen again for a while.

For eg I'm hyped to see Kouen and I have no idea what type of General he is. Next time Karin appears, I'll be excited. Same with Houken, Gohoumei and so on.

It's much harder to like characters when they're here one minute, gone the next. Sometimes it works - I really liked Choutou, Seikai and so on, but I'd much prefer it for eg if all of Wei's Dragons are fleshed out in this arc, so we know their abilities + personalities as well as potentially seeing a rivalry blossom, and then they can go away for a while.

Then once we return to Wei, these guys will have a much bigger impact. If Gaimou dies tomorrow, no one will care, really. If he's portrayed really well, is fleshed out and his personality expanded upon, then I'll care a LOT when he inevitably falls, which hopefully won't be until the Wei invasion.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

I feel the same. Gaimou need to live...

I also want to see Ordo again. Mountain people and other new tricks.
I'm sure this time he will be more dangerous.


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

Ordo vs Ousen round 2 is another of my theories. Ordo received such an ass kicking that even Yan officials are questioning him. He's probably planning his revenge as we speak.

Wouldn't surprise me if Ordo pushes Ousen the furthest of anyone (up to that point) only for Ousen to pull out a god-tier move. It'll be when we realize that Ousen isn't just great, he's damn near invincible. 

I like the fact that Chu will have a huge bounty on Moubu's head. Seeing as it's the final state to go down (IMO), Shin might take Kouen, but if he takes on Kouyoku instead then Kouen vs Moubu is on. 

Basically Hara should lay as many seeds as possible.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 5, 2014)

Shin said:


> Who wants to see Ten being raped ?



I do. God wills it


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 5, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> I do. God wills it



Ten has alot of supporters on this journey.



Kanki Is God said:


> Ordo vs Ousen round 2 is another of my theories. Ordo received such an ass kicking that even Yan officials are questioning him. He's probably planning his revenge as we speak.
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me if Ordo pushes Ousen the furthest of anyone (up to that point) only for Ousen to pull out a god-tier move. It'll be when we realize that Ousen isn't just great, he's damn near invincible.
> 
> ...



I doubt that Ordo will go for Ousen again... I don't see him the revenge type but anything its possible.
The tiger stuff that I did see from gaimou makes me belive that shin will defeat the tiger of Chu.
Moubu could go for Karin or the other general's 

Its up to Hara to suprise us. Cuz damn he can ignore history.



Morglay said:


> *Slowly raises hand.* For plot purposes only...



For the boner


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

Moubu vs Karin would be a bit...random. I can see her taking on Ousen/Kanki/Kyoukai/Tou/Mouten though.
Think you're looking too far into Gaimou's 'tiger' quote lol

Ordo will definitely hold a grudge. Not saying he'll be sitting biting his lip in rage for the next 5-10 years, but he'll be prepared to right the wrong.


----------



## sadino (May 5, 2014)

Less than 20 pages and you guys make me remember why this section weirds out some people.

I think Kyoukai captured Gaimou's lieutenant so both "armies" don't have strategists right now.


----------



## Goobalith (May 5, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> For some reason people don't like him, but damn Kanmei was a boss.



Its the hair dude. For whatever reason, all the generals of Chu have a terrible sense for hairstyles.


----------



## Kanki (May 5, 2014)

Rinbou


----------



## sadino (May 5, 2014)

That remembers me of the coolest General under Mougou. He kinda showed some empathy towards Shin during the Renpa battle and ended dying a little after, it seems that liking Shin is this series deathflag.

Eibi-sama T,T

RInko in that one campaign killed more officials than Shin probably did in his entire career till now. lawl


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 6, 2014)

So there's a lot of talk about the fire dragons surviving this war, but no one stepping up and predicting how that would be possible.

Looking at the vote the majority believes Qin will win, and apparently by not defeating a single General.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 6, 2014)

One of them might die, but at least 2 of them should live. Wei can lose without everyone dying.

Or Wei could win the war or it could end in a draw.


----------



## Patrick (May 6, 2014)

They won't suddenly appear to make Wei a force to be reckoned with to all jsut die on the spot.

Shihaku has had no development yet, he will msot likely live. It's looking grim for Reiou and Gaimou though.


----------



## Kanki (May 6, 2014)

I think Reiou could die here. He's the strategist meaning Wei now have two of them. He dies, which leaves Gohoumei, Gaimou and Shihaku left. 3 Great Generals. 

Tbh though I'm not sure even Ousen can change this war. Ousen/Tou vs 4 Great Generals? Something major has to happen for Qin to win.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 6, 2014)

I can't see this arc being too long given how Sei vs Ryo is supposed to happen pretty soon. 

But I still don't really have any idea as to how this war could end. I don't think the Tou army has what it takes to defeat Wei and I'm not sure can they afford to send anyone to help, but at the same time Qin almost has to win this war.

Maybe Qi could attack Wei in the back and force Wei to retreat.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 6, 2014)

Well that theory of Ten getting captured came true...but my favorite part of the chapter was probably Shin getting sent flying straight off his horse. 


JiraiyaForever said:


> You mean giving up her delicious body to Gaimou?


Kyoukai >>>>>> Ten.


Shin said:


> Who wants to see Ten being raped ?


 No...we might get brutal interrogation, but I'd rather avoid rape.


Kanki Is God said:


> Moubu vs Kanmei was awesome.


That fight was brutal, one of the best in the series.


Kanki Is God said:


> I do prefer it usually when characters aren't mere 'arc villains'. I like them to be introduced, maybe referenced, and not seen again for a while.
> 
> For eg I'm hyped to see Kouen and I have no idea what type of General he is. Next time Karin appears, I'll be excited. Same with Houken, Gohoumei and so on.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it bugs me when some of the other antagonists that seem interesting (ie that poison general) don't get fleshed out that much, but sometimes it's a necessary evil, as it would take too much time.


----------



## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

I'm having a really hard time believing that Gaimou and Shihaku are still in peak physical and fighting condition after spending all that time in prison. Personally I believe this will be the reason Shin and Ouhon are able to defeat or combat Gaimou and Shihaku (them being rusty) and how Qin is going to win this battle.

If i'm wrong and they haven't lost any of their edge, than that's really shitty writing on Hara's part to offer no explanation for how they are still in peak condition.


----------



## Pliskin (May 6, 2014)

He can always make QIN "See a light in the Darkness" and get the fairytale Nakama powerup.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 6, 2014)

Well I guess its only natural to assume that they aren't in their top condition, but it would seem that they were well fed and had at least some form of practice while they were in prison.

Rusty and not used to fighting properly probably, but physically they seem to be doing ok.

But I don't think Shin has what it takes to take down Gaimou at this point. Gaimou and at least 1 other fire dragon should be saved for later, there's no reason to kill them now.


----------



## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well I guess its only natural to assume that they aren't in their top condition, but it would seem that they were well fed and had at least some form of practice while they were in prison.
> 
> Rusty and not used to fighting properly probably, but physically they seem to be doing ok.
> .


Perhaps, but being rusty should still hurt there performance.



> But I don't think Shin has what it takes to take down Gaimou at this point. Gaimou and at least 1 other fire dragon should be saved for later, there's no reason to kill them now.


Honestly I don't see why Gaimou is so hyped. The fact that it was stated Gaimou never fought the Qin Great Generals 1v1, should tell us that he is not on their level -- despite the BS about the Qin Great Generals not wanting to fight him. I'm sure Gaimou is strong, but as things stand I have no problem seeing Shin beat him.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I'm having a really hard time believing that Gaimou and Shihaku are still in peak physical and fighting condition after spending all that time in prison. Personally I believe this will be the reason Shin and Ouhon are able to defeat or combat Gaimou and Shihaku (them being rusty) and how Qin is going to win this battle.
> 
> If i'm wrong and they haven't lost any of their edge, than that's really shitty writing on Hara's part to offer no explanation for how they are still in peak condition.



Wait what ?

Its not like they just got out and send to war... they got out they clean themself up and then go to war. We have no timeline on when they got free.

Gaimou should be rusty... this is why even Shin could hold his shit that guy is a fucking giant clearly his not at peak if shin can do a blow to blow.
The strategist should not have any problems.
The spear guy should be rusty to.

Still a legendary soldier with some rust... still does have experience and alot of power.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 6, 2014)

Shin was clearly behind Gaimou in their fight, Shin would of died had it went on.

I don't think he can overcome that gap during this war, Shin still needs a few more years to be on that level.

Only way I see Gaimou dying is if Ten dies or will die unless Shin beats Gaimou, but I'm not sure how would I like that. I just want Gaimou to live for a bit longer than just this arc.


----------



## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

Shin said:


> Wait what ?
> 
> Its not like they just got out and send to war... they got out they clean themself up and then go to war. We have no timeline on when they got free.
> 
> ...


I don't see how this is any different than what I said.



lazorwalrus said:


> Shin was clearly behind Gaimou in their fight, Shin would of died had it went on.


Shin was the underdog, we've seen that many times though and Shin still pulls out a win; whether that is in martial combat or doing enough where it allows his unit as a collective to be successful. 



> I don't think he can overcome that gap during this war, Shin still needs a few more years to be on that level.


When I say Shin defeats Gaimou, I mean as a commander of his unit. I don't necessarily think Shin has to beat him in martial combat. The manga has already established Gaimou as some one who rushes into a fight, without paying much heed to tactics. As things stand Shin is of similar mind-set, but now that the Hi Shin Unit has temporarily lost Ten, we can assume that Shin will be forced to take on more strategical role as commander of the Hi Shin Unit. Like wise it was also established that the Qin Great Generals dealt with Gaimou by avoiding his invitations for 1v1 combat and attacking him with numbers. Given both these facts, I find it extremely likely that we will see Shin exploit Gaimou's attempts to duel with him and than use numbers to defeat Gaimou tactically. Such as Kyokai or top Duke Hyou soldiers joining Shin in combat against Gaimou. Utilizing a similar strategy as the Qin Great Generals for dealing with Gaimou combined with Gaimou being rusty should allow Shin to defeat Gaimou in this battle.



> nly way I see Gaimou dying is if Ten dies or will die unless Shin beats Gaimou, but I'm not sure how would I like that. I just want Gaimou to live for a bit longer than just this arc.


Hara would be a pretty shitty writer to have Gaimou kill off Ten. If Ten is ever killed it would have to be a much bigger antagonist than Gaimou; Houken or Riboku are the only ones currently in the story I can see killing Ten. 

I do see Shin beating Gaimou, by out strategizing Gaimou like the Qin Great Generals did in the past . Now whether Gaimou dies or is simply defeated I'm not certain, however from a story telling perspective I would think that it's more likely that Gaimou dies here (or at least is taken out of action). Why? Because Qin has to start unifying the territories at some point or the story is going to drag on too long, and that won't be good given Shin's growth rate. So personally I'd think this war with Wei should be where Qin deals them a crippling blow that they never quite recover from. That way when they are pacified Hara doesn't need to spend so much time on it dealing with the defeat of all these new Great Generals. That's why I think the those 3 Fire's are more likely than not going to die, be taken out of combat, or potentially defect from Wei by the end of this battle,


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 6, 2014)

I didn't mean that Gaimou would personally kill Ten, he doesn't seem like the type that would kill a little girl.

But rather Ten might die while shes being rescued, something goes wrong and Ten dies. 
Then again I feel like there would be more development for it if it was going to happen and we have already lost Seikyou and Mougou in like the past 20 chapters so I doubt Ten will die. 

Yeah, Shin could beat Gaimou by actually doing something smart, all they really need to do is break through the same time as Rokuomi and Ouhon do to win the war. But I do see Gaimou staying with Wei so the eventual final Qin vs Wei war wont be a stomp.


----------



## Kanki (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Honestly I don't see why Gaimou is so hyped. The fact that it was stated Gaimou never fought the Qin Great Generals 1v1, should tell us that he is not on their level -- despite the BS about the Qin Great Generals not wanting to fight him. I'm sure Gaimou is strong, but as things stand I have no problem seeing Shin beat him.



I think context is crucial here. As you say there's many ways for a General to win a war, but Gaimou's only hype is in direct combat. In that regard, he's most definitely on the level of the elites. Shin said as much. The hype of Ouki + Renpa avoiding him is just that - hype, and we know how bias each army is anyway. Everyone thinks their General is the best.

But whether Gaimou is stronger or weaker than Renpa and co doesn't really matter because we can safely assume he's on their level, purely in combat. As for overall General-abilities, then without doubt Renpa + Ouki are far above Gaimou because they've mastered every field (instincts, strategy, leadership and so on). 

It's still guess work at this stage, but I'd consider Gaimou to be a weaker General overall to Zhao-War Moubu. But for pure combat, I think it's safe to say Gaimou is in the bracket of Houken, Ouki, Moubu, Kanmei, Tou, Renpa etc. Though perhaps near the bottom of that list.

One thing I do disagree with is the generalization of Qin's Great Generals. We know they're a mixed bunch. It's not too different to the rank of Jounin, Kage, Yonkou - essentially there's no set 'level'. Duke was strong enough to be in the 6GG and yet he was inferior to Ouki. Oukotsu was a member of the 6 with highly regarded physical strength and yet was squashed by Kanmei who lost to Moubu.

I think in some ways, Qin's 6 are slightly overrated. Remember they were 'just' Great Generals. The reason they became members of the specific type of GG ('6') was based on trust. There's no reason why all of Qin's 6 Great Generals should be stronger than the strongest Generals from the other states. Overall they were for sure, and it's clear that Hakuki/Ouki were pretty much god tier, but not all of them were.

Gokei was equal to Duke who was strong enough to make the 6. Therefore Gokei could have potentially been in that group had he lived in Qin. If Gaimou was said to be an elite General on Gokei's level, he's therefore around the level of at least one and perhaps more, of Qin's 6.

When Qin ultimately invade Wei, I definitely like your idea of Shin defeating Gaimou with tactics, rather than in combat. Shin doesn't have to crush every opponent in a fight. He's already got those future fights sorted with Houken, Kouyoku and so on. I never really thought of it your way, but it would be great writing IMO. Let his instinct settle the fight and perhaps kill Gaimou with teamwork. There's 6 states to invade - in other words at least 6 powerful Generals for Shin to overcome. It'll be cool to see different ways of countering each.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 6, 2014)

Ousen, Kanki and Moubu have all been stated to have been strong enough to be part of the 6 so we can somewhat guess where exactly the former 6GG were at in terms of strength if we compare them to the new generation. I don't think they were really stronger than the new generation at all, maybe Ouki and Hakuki were, but the rest probably not.

Guess we overrate the previous generation and especially the 6GG because Ouki and Renpa are the only examples we have of their strength. 

Maybe in a few years we could do a match up of the previous 6GG vs the new ones, if we get more info about the previous one and assuming that the system will be recreated.


----------



## Pliskin (May 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I
> I think in some ways, Qin's 6 are slightly overrated. Remember they were 'just' Great Generals.



This.SO.SO.Much.

Somehow, everyone assumes they are all Ouki+ level, when we know two of them got squashed by people possibly below 'Ouki fight'-Houken level.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 6, 2014)

I'm on chpter 120!

Shin's special mission!


----------



## Kanki (May 6, 2014)

Gokei
Gohoumei
Gaimou
Karin
Kanmei
Gekishin


All great enough to be considered worthy of being in Qin's 6 + Zhao's 3 as well, just to add to the Duke/Kanki/Ousen/Moubu/Tou. Reiou, Shihaku are probably there too. Maybe the other 3 at the same time. Obviously Kouen. 

I'm sure even Han have or had at least 1 General who's great enough to considered in that bracket. It'd be pretty horrible if their elite General was someone like Rinbukun.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 6, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> I'm on chpter 120!
> 
> Shin's special mission!


Congrats on getting started on the series. Trust me, it gets better. Much MUCH better.


----------



## Turrin (May 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I think context is crucial here. As you say there's many ways for a General to win a war, but Gaimou's only hype is in direct combat. In that regard, he's most definitely on the level of the elites. Shin said as much. The hype of Ouki + Renpa avoiding him is just that - hype, and we know how bias each army is anyway. Everyone thinks their General is the best.
> 
> But whether Gaimou is stronger or weaker than Renpa and co doesn't really matter because we can safely assume he's on their level, purely in combat. As for overall General-abilities, then without doubt Renpa + Ouki are far above Gaimou because they've mastered every field (instincts, strategy, leadership and so on).


Here's the thing when an author goes out of his way to put an addendum like, but he never actually fought 1v1 against one of them, it becomes obvious that the character is not quite as stronger as them. Gaimou's legend proceeds him, that is what i'm getting from the manga. Shin comparing Gaimou's blow to one that probably wasn't nearly Renpa's best, really doesn't do anything to prove otherwise to me. That's not to say Gaimou is some chump, but I doubt he is quite as strong as any of them.

Ouki and Renpa avoiding fighting him 1v1 is just strategy. I doubt experienced generals like them engaged any strong enemy 1v1 if they had the option to face him with numbers. 



> One thing I do disagree with is the generalization of Qin's Great Generals. We know they're a mixed bunch. It's not too different to the rank of Jounin, Kage, Yonkou - essentially there's no set 'level'. Duke was strong enough to be in the 6GG and yet he was inferior to Ouki. Oukotsu was a member of the 6 with highly regarded physical strength and yet was squashed by Kanmei who lost to Moubu.


I don't see them all as the same "level" Hakuki & Ouki are likely the best or most complete, in the sense that they have the highest overall mastery of the traits that make a good general. However I do think we will see them all excel at different areas, and in their respective area I see them being superior to Gaimou.



> I think in some ways, Qin's 6 are slightly overrated. Remember they were 'just' Great Generals. The reason they became members of the specific type of GG ('6') was based on trust. There's no reason why all of Qin's 6 Great Generals should be stronger than the strongest Generals from the other states. Overall they were for sure, and it's clear that Hakuki/Ouki were pretty much god tier, but not all of them were.


I actually think it's the reverse and that the Qin's 6 are underestimated, because they are compared to the standard "level" of any other Great General. I'm sure other Great-Generals compare to them in some regards, but they excel beyond them in their speciality. The very fact that Tou is a Great-General, and he was merely one of the 6's second in command should demonstrate the difference. 



> Gokei was equal to Duke who was strong enough to make the 6. Therefore Gokei could have potentially been in that group had he lived in Qin. If Gaimou was said to be an elite General on Gokei's level, he's therefore around the level of at least one and perhaps more, of Qin's 6.


Where is Gokei equal to the duke coming from? The Duke defeated Goki, and that was with an overwhelming disadvantage in military might.

Edit: From what I can recall Gokei rivaled the Duke in one area, instinct, everywhere else he was outclassed.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I actually think it's the reverse and that the Qin's 6 are underestimated, because they are compared to the standard "level" of any other Great General. I'm sure other Great-Generals compare to them in some regards, but they excel beyond them in their speciality. The very fact that Tou is a Great-General, and he was merely one of the 6's second in command should demonstrate the difference.



Ouki literally said "I don't know why you followed me all these years you are just as good as I am" to Tou


----------



## convict (May 6, 2014)

> Edit: From what I can recall Gokei rivaled the Duke in one area, instinct, everywhere else he was outclassed.



Reread the first Wei war.

That is all I can say after reading this.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 6, 2014)

Shin slayed Fuuki!!!!!!!


----------



## Kanki (May 6, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's the thing when an author goes out of his way to put an addendum like, but he never actually fought 1v1 against one of them, it becomes obvious that the character is not quite as stronger as them. Gaimou's legend proceeds him, that is what i'm getting from the manga. Shin comparing Gaimou's blow to one that probably wasn't nearly Renpa's best, really doesn't do anything to prove otherwise to me. That's not to say Gaimou is some chump, but I doubt he is quite as strong as any of them.



I'm not really getting that at all from the manga. The way I interpreted that statement was that Gaimou was Wei's elite combat fighter, a total monster, who never fought with Ouki/Renpa. Wei seem to think he was superior to Ouki/Renpa in combat, but I'm sure Qin/Zhao felt their General was superior.

Don't forget as well that Gaimou was never under any threat here. He's perfectly fine, so he possibly wasn't his best either.

For me Hara was just putting Gaimou in the elite ball park, nothing more or less, and it's up for us to decide who's stronger or weaker. I actually think Ouki and Renpa would defeat him in a combat fight (especially Ouki), but it's be close. I see Gaimou being Tou's combat level, though a different style of course.



> Ouki and Renpa avoiding fighting him 1v1 is just strategy. I doubt experienced generals like them engaged any strong enemy 1v1 if they had the option to face him with numbers.



I thought this too, until Lazorwalrus told me about the Zhao war where Ouki went out of his way to clash with Shoumou (the fat pig General) because he was dominating the Qin soldiers. 

But you are right, though you're actually just repeating what the Wei strategist said. It was strategy for them to avoid Gaimou. They obviously considered him a huge threat in a 1 on 1, if nothing else.



> I don't see them all as the same "level" Hakuki & Ouki are likely the best or most complete, in the sense that they have the highest overall mastery of the traits that make a good general. However I do think we will see them all excel at different areas, and in their respective area I see them being superior to Gaimou.



I'll wait until we see a bit more of him until I pass judgement.



> I actually think it's the reverse and that the Qin's 6 are underestimated, because they are compared to the standard "level" of any other Great General. I'm sure other Great-Generals compare to them in some regards, but they excel beyond them in their speciality. The very fact that Tou is a Great-General, and he was merely one of the 6's second in command should demonstrate the difference.



But you know as well as I do that Tou is the 'Zoro' of Kingdom. Ouki said himself that Tou is on the same level. Tou is therefore also strong enough to be a member of the Qin 6. He chose to stay loyal to Ouki. Ouki's words *"It's not like you were ever beneath me"*.

I think your argument falls flat on that score. Tou is unique. Remember, the '6 Great Generals' were 'only' Great Generals. They became members of the 6 due to trust. 

Tou is easily as powerful as Duke. Gohoumei (a genius) believes Tou to being the greatest General in Qin - and yet we know that Moubu, Kanki and Ousen are all powerful enough to be in the 6.

Oukotsu was in the 6, and he got destroyed by Kanmei. 



> Where is Gokei equal to the duke coming from? The Duke defeated Goki, and that was with an overwhelming disadvantage in military might.



Nope, Duke and Gokei started with the same amount of forces. At the climax, Wei had more survivors, but Duke had  the General's head to end the war.. 


> Edit: From what I can recall Gokei rivaled the Duke in one area, instinct, everywhere else he was outclassed.



Completely wrong. I think you should re-read the arc. I actually did so the other day (as I mentioned a few pages ago).

Gokei vs Duke was strategy vs instinct in it's purest form. Gokei personified strategy like a chess board, whilst Duke was the lion using instinct. Ouki referenced this a bunch of times. Hara used this war to introduce us into the two concepts.

Gokei's army was at a disadvantage because Ouki appeared from the side, and Ouki himself stated they'll remain there because it prevents Haku Kisai's army (anything from 20k to 40k I'd guess) from moving. 

Furthermore Gokei had the option to retreat - naturally he couldn't compete with Duke in actual combat. He should have retreated and re-formed his soldiers, due to the numbers advantage. But because of his past and history, he refused out of pride. Remember his family/village was crushed by invaders so he swore never to retreat from future invaders again.

Gokei vs Duke was even with no clear favorite, with the deciding factors being Gokei's pride and Ouki's presence which occupied Wei's second largest army under Haku Kisai.

Who knows what would have happened had Gokei had access to the second main Wei unit, and didn't have the mental fragility of stubbornness.

The two were equal up to that point. No one knew who the stronger man was. Ouki, who knew Duke's level, had no idea either.

You should re-read it. You'll actually find the more you re-read past arcs, the more things you find. Even now when I go back and read wars, there's new, subtle things I find.


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 7, 2014)

Ernie on a roll again!

[YOUTUBE]63O_Yff25ZM[/YOUTUBE]

Perhaps I should warn you for mature language?


----------



## Katou (May 7, 2014)

She can't help it . .Ten is too Popular to the guys + Kaine 
not her fault she's cute


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 7, 2014)

this is 2 second time ten gets captured it better be something that makes us care cuz rescue again withou no rape or something would be bad...


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 7, 2014)

-Ziltoid- said:


> Ernie on a roll again!
> 
> [YOUTUBE]63O_Yff25ZM[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Perhaps I should warn you for mature language?




Ernie:



> First of all Ten is only seventeen and that is not the right age to get raped,.... Wait, that sounded wreird



LooooooooooooooL


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 7, 2014)

The Ernie chronicles


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 7, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Ernie:
> 
> 
> 
> LooooooooooooooL



I warned you about mature language


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 7, 2014)

Doesn't look like the Japanese raw of 386 is out yet so we might have to wait for a proper translation of 386...

The Chinese raw and its translation is out already, but its really bad. 

I'm already starting to miss 5 chapters every week. I never knew that a week could feel this damn long.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 7, 2014)

Bitou died 

Volume 15!


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 7, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Doesn't look like the Japanese raw of 386 is out yet so we might have to wait for a proper translation of 386...
> 
> The Chinese raw and its translation is out already, but its really bad.
> 
> I'm already starting to miss 5 chapters every week. I never knew that a week could feel this damn long.



Its okay for 1 chapter a week, we can brainstorms new idea.

If only we could have a battledoom  



B Rabbit said:


> Bitou died
> 
> Volume 15!



that reminds me of the next poll... after this it should be the emotional moments poll


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 7, 2014)

Kingdom battledome would be incredible .


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 7, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Kingdom battledome would be incredible .



True, but it would be absurdly hard to find a winner, unless it was obvious from the get go.

Like how would you even begin, with let say Mangoku vs Shoumou?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 7, 2014)

Shoumou would beat Mangoku, at least in a fight.

Kingdom battledome would be awesome, I'd spend all day there.
But it doesn't look like its going to happen at this rate.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 7, 2014)

The Death of General Ouki.


----------



## Shiroyasha (May 7, 2014)

Read 381 - 384.

Dat Shin. 

Gaimou's going to split little Ten.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 7, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Shoumou would beat Mangoku, at least in a fight.
> 
> Kingdom battledome would be awesome, I'd spend all day there.
> But it doesn't look like its going to happen at this rate.



One day...



ClandestineSchemer said:


> True, but it would be absurdly hard to find a winner, unless it was obvious from the get go.
> 
> Like how would you even begin, with let say Mangoku vs Shoumou?



Choose an army, get a map of the field 1 move eatch turn, at 3 post the move that is made can be revealed.

The unseen moves can be used to attack the HQ, make traps, fortresses.
You can suprise the enemy. 

PS. The map must be edited when you post.


----------



## Kanki (May 7, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> The Death of General Ouki.



Absolute fucking tragic. When you catch up I'll give you the episode to it. OMG. 

I often thing whether I should change to 'Ouki Is God'. Those lips deserve a religion on their own.




JiraiyaForever said:


> Kingdom battledome would be incredible .



It really would. And you know what, because Kingdom is such a unique series, I would often go out of my way to argue for 'the other side'. It's really interesting. If a BD conversation comes up with 'Kanki vs Ousen' - and even though I believe Ousen to be superior, I would LOVE to debate with a guy like Moe with me taking Kanki's side. There is evidence to suggest Kanki could be superior after all.

I'd love it. I think as well that it would encourage a lot of top posts. None of this "Ouki GG" nonsense you get from other sections. It's really not that hard to make someone like Duke sound like he could defeat Tou, for eg. And vice versa of course.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 7, 2014)

Shiroyasha said:


> Gaimou's going to split little Ten.



Like the red sea


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 7, 2014)

Exactly KIG. 

The idea of a battledome was made for a manga like Kingdom.

So many factors, layouts, team setup, scenarios it's intimidating to even begin. Kingdom is also so balanced with not only generals but their commanders.

I mean we could even debate for days how this current war with Wei could turn out.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 8, 2014)

Shin becoming 1000 commander!

Kanki is cool.

Let's go Shin!!!


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 8, 2014)

Turnipfarmers versions of 381 and 382 are out Chapter 78-84 , kinda figured it was old fashioned and not old fashion.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

Once again TF's translation is just so superior.


----------



## Katou (May 8, 2014)

Gaimou's Lips reminds me of Ouki


----------



## convict (May 8, 2014)

So Tou is, even by this translation, highlighted as the most dangerous general in all of Qin. As a fan of his I'm liking this hype. I recall we were all wondering why he was getting shafted previously.


----------



## Pesky Bug (May 8, 2014)

Is it just me or is Ouhon a bit more annoying than usual? His interactions with Shin were funny, but now he's coming off just as a compete and total dick.

And I think someone had fun making this cover 


And Gaimou quenching his thirst.  He just made my fave characters list just for that.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 8, 2014)

Ehh, I don't think Ouhon was more annoying than usual, well I don't find him annoying in the first place anyway.
Its just normal Ouhon.

Just realized Ten's duckface in that cover....I wonder if that's their real height difference, Kyoukai looks pretty damn tall compared to Ten.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

There was a few improvements. Reiou actually said Tou hadn't lost a step whereas Mangajoy claimed he had, Shihaku is actually the GOAT Wei spear user and not just the current best. But I wonder what Kanki's weakness is? I'd guess perhaps combat? Looking forward to seeing how they translate Gaimou vs Shin. 

Ranbihaku looks so cool, by the way. He really does remind of Duke with his design/physique. He even has the same body posture when attacking. It's like Hara just cloned Duke and made a few alterations.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 8, 2014)

Maybe its Duke's zombie with a mask. 

Kanki's weakness is pretty obvious imo, his tactics don't really work against superior fighters that well. He can't just sneak into Moubu's HQ and take him out since Moubu would crush him easily if he tried.

And I have no idea how Kanki does on a flat terrain with a large army, you can't really win everything with sneaky tactics.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

I like how experience is hyped up here too. It's good for guys like Choutou. I guess he's another one who has no real weakness, though obviously lacks the special abilities of others.

It adds a new dimension when comparing characters.


----------



## Coruscation (May 8, 2014)

The quality of these translations is really so much higher. First, the discussion about Tou made a lot more sense. They didn't say that he was "heads and shoulders" above the other elite Qin Generals, or even that he was better than them, but only that he was the only one without a weakness. Second, I always wondered about that line that Tou has lost his edge without Ouki. I took it to mean that maybe Reiou sending Ranbihaku and making Tou retreat was exactly what he wanted to happen and Tou couldn't see through it, but this is obviously the exact opposite. Third, they really didn't say that Kanou has "greater destructive strength" than the Hi Shin Unit which was quite a confounding statement, but that he has more ability to break through enemy lines, not quite the same thing. Plus additional clarity on that Tou taking one of the spots would make their plan too easy to read.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 8, 2014)

Well yeah experience counts, but it also depends on what kind of experience they have.
For Tou its such a big thing because he was Ouki's second in command and thus has experienced all kinds of battles against various top tier enemies in various places.

We don't really know that much about Choutou, sure he has experience, but given his lower tier abilities compared to the 6GG and even Mougou, it's unlikely that he saw the most action as a general, at least any major campaigns since they were naturally given to the most talented generals.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 8, 2014)

Turnip farmers has a much better translation. 
The mangajoy version Ouhon almost felt out of character, when he gave a compliment to Ten and Kyoukai, saying they took care of the units folly.
The Turnip version, on the other hand, acknowledges an improvement, but is still mocking them all.

Plus Reiou's comment on Tou, did a 180 as well.


----------



## convict (May 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> The quality of these translations is really so much higher. First, the discussion about Tou made a lot more sense. They didn't say that he was "heads and shoulders" above the other elite Qin Generals, or even that he was better than them, but only that he was the only one without a weakness. Second, I always wondered about that line that Tou has lost his edge without Ouki. I took it to mean that maybe Reiou sending Ranbihaku and making Tou retreat was exactly what he wanted to happen and Tou couldn't see through it, but this is obviously the exact opposite. *Third, they really didn't say that Kanou has "greater destructive strength" than the Hi Shin Unit which was quite a confounding statement, but that he has more ability to break through enemy lines,* not quite the same thing. Plus additional clarity on that Tou taking one of the spots would make their plan too easy to read.



I honestly completely disagree with that (from what we have seen of them) as well but it is definitely an improvement over the previous line.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

I think Ouhon did actually mean that Kanou is greater at breaking through defenses, because he also questioned Kanou's versatility. Kanou is a simple General - he just loves to fight in deathly battles. If you don't think he has greater destructive strength and yet he's better at breaking through enemy lines, that implies he's able to use some clever tactics to achieve that, which goes against his character somewhat.

It's a fine opinion - remember just because Shin might be superior in combat, it doesn't mean he's as good at leading a unit to cut through enemy lines. Duke was better at breaking through enemy forces than virtually anyone, for example.


----------



## Coruscation (May 8, 2014)

Kanou has got to have that piercing power from tactics though. It can hardly be due to strength as there's simply no way he comes anywhere near the HSU with Shin plus Kyoukai and their other monsters in that respect, and Shin's got good instincts to boot. The only way I see this makes sense is if he always specialized in it and we just don't know it yet, or that alternatively, he has grown stronger. But if he's just a brute I have to agree with convict that it's mighty hard to see how he supposedly has better ability to break through enemy lines.



> I honestly completely disagree with that (from what we have seen of them) as well but it is definitely an improvement over the previous line.



Well I don't really remember any particular cases allowing for a solid comparison between the two. It may simply be the author now telling us what Kanou's specialty is. You could say it is still a little hard to buy given Shin's vastly superior strength not to mention the presence of Kyoukai, but cutting through strong defensive lines does have to do with more than destructive power.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 8, 2014)

Also Kanou's army is probably more used to making these destructive charges given that they are Ouki's veterans.

Kanou managed to get close to Fuuki once despite being massively outnumbered.


----------



## Russel (May 8, 2014)

Lol. I stop reading mangajoy's version. It is so crappy and confusing compared to turntip farmer's translation. 

As for the firedragons.... They are dead meat. Ouhon will take on the spearuser, Shin that big guy. Tou the strategist.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 8, 2014)

There is also the fact, that Kanou has less apprehensions about sacrificing his fodder for his goal, than Ten does.
So obviously he is better at penetrating defensive lines, since Ten would probably take her time to minimize said casualties as much as possible.


----------



## Pesky Bug (May 8, 2014)

Yeah, though I'm usually more of a lurker than a poster, I stopped coming here altogether these past days so I don't see any talk about mangajoy, though I wasn't even sure they were still doing their thing. What chapter are the RAWs at, anyway?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 8, 2014)

The raws are at 386. So turnipfarmers should be caught up this Sunday if they do 1 extra chapter.

Then again the Japanese version of 386 doesn't seem to be out yet so that might delay 386 translations for a while.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Kanou has got to have that piercing power from tactics though. It can hardly be due to strength as there's simply no way he comes anywhere near the HSU with Shin plus Kyoukai and their other monsters in that respect, and Shin's got good instincts to boot. The only way I see this makes sense is if he always specialized in it and we just don't know it yet, or that alternatively, he has grown stronger. But if he's just a brute I have to agree with convict that it's mighty hard to see how he supposedly has better ability to break through enemy lines.
> 
> .



He's spent years if not decades in Ouki's army, and he's a guy who supposedly has survived far more deathly situations than your average General. As we now know experience plays a huge part and he has more than Shin, Ouhon and Kyoukai combined. I think there's a difference between 1 on 1 combat ability and the ability to break through enemy lines as well. 

He's not really a brute because he isn't actually amazing in combat - he couldn't defeat Mangoku for eg (they appeared to stalemate before the distraction). For a guy who couldn't defeat Mangoku to survive the harshest conditions of any Ouki-commander (probably), he must have a lot of other things going for him.


----------



## Coruscation (May 8, 2014)

"Experience" is a bit too intangible for me to really accept in a series that usually explains itself clearly. Tou's experience was explained to be such a huge boon because he has seen so much and knows war so well he doesn't have a true weakness. Kanou on the other hand was actually said to be inflexible in this chapter. That typically means one is good at one thing but can't be relied upon to adapt if the situation changes and quick reactions are necessary. If it's not good tactics, not strong instinct nor brute power that lets him be so good then what is it? It doesn't really add up. I only question this because the series is usually clear and concise on points like these yet here it's not apparent at all. That's why the best explanation in my eyes is that his specialization in tactics is piercing defenses well, not unlike how Rihaku really specializes in building and holding them, even if he only really excels at that particular thing.

Kanou being more willing to sacrifice whatever it takes is something I can buy. But I'm not sure that's what Rokoumi would have been referring to. He might know that Shin is uncharacteristically unwilling to leave comrades to die intentionally, but Ouhon is very strict and serious.


----------



## Patrick (May 8, 2014)

Experience might actually be a valid explanation here. If you have more experience with something you are usually better at it. Practice makes perfect.

He has without a doubt done way more of these charges than Shin or Ouhon.


----------



## convict (May 8, 2014)

> Well I don't really remember any particular cases allowing for a solid comparison between the two. It may simply be the author now telling us what Kanou's specialty is. You could say it is still a little hard to buy given Shin's vastly superior strength not to mention the presence of Kyoukai, but cutting through strong defensive lines does have to do with more than destructive power.



There is one instance by which we can make a comparison and that is when Kanou was cutting through Fuuki's lines. While he certainly did a good job, and was successful, that was largely also due to a young Shin's ingenuity and tenacity. I find it difficult to believe he is as proficient as Shin, who not only has the strength befitting a great general, but has an extremely tight and well strategized unit with monsters such as the Duke troops, Kyoukai and the like. Breaking in to enemy lines has actually been Shin's forte, even since he was very young seeing the missions he has been sent on and accomplished. During his very first war in fact, when he was a kid he opened up a breach that no one surrounding him could have, which allowed for progression. Even though this instance overlooks so many things like large scale tactics it has always highlighted how good Shin was in piercing through enemy lines.


----------



## Coruscation (May 8, 2014)

> Experience might actually be a valid explanation here. If you have more experience with something you are usually better at it. Practice makes perfect.
> 
> He has without a doubt done way more of these charges than Shin or Ouhon.



Experience is a huge factor but it's just that it's not the experience itself that helps you. It's the skill you attain from having done it so many times. To break enemy lines well should require at least one out of great tactics, instincts (Duke Hyou) or brute force (Moubu). If Kanou doesn't specialize in either of these I wonder just what it is that makes him supposedly better than Shin.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> "Experience" is a bit too intangible for me to really accept in a series that usually explains itself clearly. Tou's experience was explained to be such a huge boon because he has seen so much and knows war so well he doesn't have a true weakness. Kanou on the other hand was actually said to be inflexible in this chapter. That typically means one is good at one thing but can't be relied upon to adapt if the situation changes and quick reactions are necessary. If it's not good tactics, not strong instinct nor brute power that lets him be so good then what is it? It doesn't really add up. I only question this because the series is usually clear and concise on points like these yet here it's not apparent at all. That's why the best explanation in my eyes is that his specialization in tactics is piercing defenses well, not unlike how Rihaku really specializes in building and holding them, even if he only really excels at that particular thing.
> 
> Kanou being more willing to sacrifice whatever it takes is something I can buy. But I'm not sure that's what Rokoumi would have been referring to. He might know that Shin is uncharacteristically unwilling to leave comrades to die intentionally, but Ouhon is very strict and serious.



Remember what Kanou said - he excels in bloody situations. Ouki put him on the most important battlefield on the first day, Tou felt he (and Rukuomi) could survive being lost amongst the Chu. Experience can be helpful in different ways - Tou has seen virtually every scenario, whilst Kanou is probably the opposite - he's probably always been put in the same, volatile position where a lot of blood is shed. So he's almost an expert in situations where he's required to break through enemy lines, yet has never really been put in other situations, hence his inflexibility. 

Kanou actually managed to break through Fuuki's defence, who's tactics were meant to be of the highest class in mid-range to long range. And yet we later saw that he was about equal to Mangoku. 

There's something intangible about Kanou's abilities - he just excels in bloody battles despite not being what you'd call an elite in actual combat. I don't know whether that's instinct, experience or whatever, but the facts are the facts. My guess is Kanou is simply great at leading charges and breaking through defenses, but is one dimensional. If he's against a strong enemy he doesn't have the ability to change tactics and perhaps be a bit more conservative, think on his feet to change tactics etc.  

Hopefully we'll see more of him in this arc. It is also possible that we're underestimating his combat ability. If I remember rightly he was clashing evenly with Mangoku whilst also thinking about Houken who had invaded the camp, which led to the distraction. Maybe if he hadn't been distracted he'd have won convincingly like Shin did?

Rukuomi doesn't seem that bright, to be honest.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

Actually I just re-read the Mangoku vs Kanou and Shin fights.

Mangoku + Kanou had 5 of those 'clash' images, with it being fairly even and neither fan had advantage, whilst Kanou was thinking about Shin + Houken (at one point even looking away).

Shin vs Mangoku had 9 of those 'clash' signs in a much more serious/graphic fight where both had picked up injuries, before Shin landed his signature move. I actually never realized that Mangoku definitely wasn't foddered. In actual skill + strength it was close until the final move. 

So perhaps we're all underestimating Kanou's fighting ability (though his stat is only 86 for strength). It could be a case that Kanou is better at leading charges whilst Rukuomi is better in 1 on 1 combat fights. The two have been paired together several times so they obviously work well.

Kanou might just be a really good fighter who's great at leading charges and breaking through defenses.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 8, 2014)

I never quite understood how Gaimou never heard of Duke Hyou. If he was good enough to be in the G6 (Despite the group's foremost emphasis on trust, the members would have to be quite capable), then I'd have figured that any general worth his rank would have heard about him.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

I suppose Moubu had never heard of Kanmei who was pretty famous. Duke either didn't have huge achievements, or was stationed at Chu which is the furthest from Wei.

But yeah I did think about that earlier.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 8, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I suppose Moubu had never heard of Kanmei who was pretty famous. Duke either didn't have huge achievements, or was stationed at Chu which is the furthest from Wei.
> 
> But yeah I did think about that earlier.



He's been warring for most of his life. I figured that he would have encountered Zhao and Wei several times.


----------



## Kanki (May 8, 2014)

Moe said:


> He's been warring for most of his life. I figured that he would have encountered Zhao and Wei several times.



Kanmei has only had 1 war against Qin though. Plus Gaimou simply may never have fought with him. He clashed with Renpa/Ouki but he might have spent most his time against Qi, Han and Chu.

It's probably just Hara making a mistake, though I'm just saying it is plausible. Especially as I doubt Gaimou spends time researching other Generals who he isn't facing.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 9, 2014)

Moe said:


> I never quite understood how Gaimou never heard of Duke Hyou. If he was good enough to be in the G6 (Despite the group's foremost emphasis on trust, the members would have to be quite capable), then I'd have figured that any general worth his rank would have heard about him.



this was a suprise for me also....


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 9, 2014)

Gaimou doesn't strike me as a guy who cares about people, that he hasn't personally faced in battle.
He didn't give a crap about Houken nor Shin, until he saw Shin in person.

So he probably didn't care about other generals, unless he has seen, that they could get his blood pumping in excitement.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 9, 2014)

Well we don't know that Duke Hyou has spent his entire career against Wei, its possible that he spent his younger years fighting against Chu for example, Shunshinkun at least seemed to know Duke Hyou quite well.

Gaimou doesn't seem like a guy who pays much attention anyway if hes never faced Duke Hyou he probably doesn't remember him even if he was mentioned in some conversation.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 9, 2014)

When the Lieutenant mentioned Houken's resume, I was like...

Strongest in all of China.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 9, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I suppose Moubu had never heard of Kanmei who was pretty famous. Duke either didn't have huge achievements, or was stationed at Chu which is the furthest from Wei.
> 
> But yeah I did think about that earlier.



I don't recall Hara or Moubu ever mentioning that. I don't think it ever came up. I have a hard time believing someone like Duke wasn't raking in the achievements considering who he is, alongside the fact he was good enough to be a G6.



ClandestineSchemer said:


> Gaimou doesn't strike me as a guy who cares about people, that he hasn't personally faced in battle.
> He didn't give a crap about Houken nor Shin, until he saw Shin in person.
> 
> So he probably didn't care about other generals, unless he has seen, that they could get his blood pumping in excitement.





lazorwalrus said:


> Well we don't know that Duke Hyou has spent his entire career against Wei, its possible that he spent his younger years fighting against Chu for example, Shunshinkun at least seemed to know Duke Hyou quite well.
> 
> Gaimou doesn't seem like a guy who pays much attention anyway if hes never faced Duke Hyou he probably doesn't remember him even if he was mentioned in some conversation.



I find that hard to believe. Heki - I could believe that, but not for Duke. Considering Duke and the amount of damage his suicidal charges do, I HIGHLY doubt Gaimou would forget Duke after a battle.

@All - But yea, it could just be that Gaimou doesn't give a shit or remember anyone unless he has fought them to a certain intensity.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 9, 2014)

I mean Gaimou forgot the shit that was told to him like few moments ago when he thought that Shin was the one that killed Ouki and Kyou, this dude obviously doesn't pay much attention.

Gaimou has been 14 years in prison, it could very well be that before that the 6GG especially Ouki and Kyou were the generals in charge of the Wei area and Duke Hyou was posted at somewhere else thus Gaimou and Duke never met.

Its also not impossible that Duke really got his time to shine after the 6GG or at least few of them were gone, these 6 must of been the focus of everyone's attention back when they were in their prime.
I have hard time believing that Qin once had 7-8 people at Great general status at the same time, it just seems too much. 

So I think that Duke while he had the talent to become one of the 6, he never became a great general while the 6GG were alive and active. He was a talented general, but only got his time to shine after at least some of the 6GG were gone.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 9, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I mean Gaimou forgot the shit that was told to him like few moments ago when he thought that Shin was the one that killed Ouki and Kyou, this dude obviously doesn't pay much attention.
> 
> Gaimou has been 14 years in prison, it could very well be that before that the 6GG especially Ouki and Kyou were the generals in charge of the Wei area and Duke Hyou was posted at somewhere else thus Gaimou and Duke never met.



Yes, that is one possibility.



> Its also not impossible that Duke really got his time to shine after the 6GG or at least few of them were gone, these 6 must of been the focus of everyone's attention back when they were in their prime.



Do you believe this?



> I have hard time believing that Qin once had 7-8 people at Great general status at the same time, it just seems too much.



Remember that the G6 member list was founded on trust. The possibility that all of Qin's GG just so happen to be a GG and trustworthy seems a bit ridiculous. 9-10, yea, I doubt it, but the possibility that there wasn't another or two (pushing it with two) GG not trustworthy enough to be in the G6 is a bit farfetch'd. 




> So I think that Duke while he had the talent to become one of the 6, he never became a great general while the 6GG were alive and active. He was a talented general, but only got his time to shine after at least some of the 6GG were gone.



But why do you believe that? After that Duke's fight against Riboku, his abilities shot up in my book, so much so that I'd go as far as to say that I'd think he's soundly mid-tier G6 material. Duke looks to be an old man, old enough for me NOT to believe that his skills rose by a significantly worthy enough of a amount in 14 years. The fact that he was invited must also mean that his achievements were enough to rival some of the members, meaning it should have kicked enough of a storm that his name should have been known enough alongside the G6.


----------



## Saishin (May 9, 2014)

patrick4life said:


> Yeah Part 6!
> 
> When was the last time a manga thread got to 6 threads? Or are we the first?




I think we are the first ones  
anyway better I read tha last chapters since I have to read chap 377 and on


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 9, 2014)

Yeah, Duke is extremely talented, probably even stronger than some of the 6, but the fact that he never answered King Sho's summons just makes me think he never really became a great general while most of the 6 were alive.

Look at it from King Sho's point of view, he has 6 guys who are loyal, trustworthy and extremely talented, but then you have a guy like Duke Hyou who is talented sure, but doesn't really go by the book and is a bit unpredictable and he even ignored the King's summons which probably isn't something that the King likes.



> Remember that the G6 member list was founded on trust. The possibility that all of Qin's GG just so happen to be a GG and trustworthy seems a bit ridiculous. 9-10, yea, I doubt it, but the possibility that there wasn't another or two (pushing it with two) GG not trustworthy enough to be in the G6 is a bit farfetch'd.



Qin must of been already spreading the forces thin with the 6GG to have more than that seems pointless. Duke and Mougou were probably promoted after 2 or 3 of the 6 died.

So I believe that while Duke was easily talented enough to become a great general even while the 6GG were alive, he simply didn't become one as he wasn't really that needed and not the most trusted guy as he didn't even want to join the group.

But after some of the 6 died or retired, Duke was more needed as a GG who could lead larger campaigns. Its not that he gained more skill or achievements necessarily, but that he was more needed than ever to fill up the blanks after monsters like Hakuki, Kyou and Oukotsu were gone or the 2 other guys who might of died before them.


----------



## Akatora (May 9, 2014)

Shin said:


> this was a suprise for me also....



years of imprisonment = years of develoupment of the outside world, there's also the option of him forgetting.
Duke might have had a lower rank back before Gaimou was imprissoned(still should have a relatively high rank, got a hard time imagining Duke having been less than a 1000 k commander at the time)


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 9, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Yeah, Duke is extremely talented, probably even stronger than some of the 6, but the fact that he never answered King Sho's summons just makes me think he never really became a great general while most of the 6 were alive.



This begs the question. Did you have to be a GG to be considered for the G6? I'd say so considering they led 100k+ men. Unless he was planning to promote him on the spot to be considered for G6, which I doubt.




> Qin must of been already spreading the forces thin with the 6GG to have more than that seems pointless. Duke and Mougou were probably promoted after 2 or 3 of the 6 died.
> 
> So I believe that while Duke was easily talented enough to become a great general even while the 6GG were alive, he simply didn't become one as he wasn't really that needed and not the most trusted guy as he didn't even want to join the group.
> 
> But after some of the 6 died or retired, Duke was more needed as a GG who could lead larger campaigns. Its not that he gained more skill or achievements necessarily, but that he was more needed than ever to fill up the blanks after monsters like Hakuki, Kyou and Oukotsu were gone or the 2 other guys who might of died before them.



Here is the thing though. The scenario I doubt is:

Qin just happen to have ALL of its GG's capable and trustworthy enough to be in his little clique. The reason why I said ALL and not 6 is that the number doesn't really have any significance because it could have easily been the G5, G3, etc. If that is so, then King Sho was playing favourites by selecting just his trustworthy generals to be GG. I don't think King Sho would do that. The possibility that the G6 consisted of ALL of the GG at the time is pretty low in my book or else King Sho had to be playing favourites. I doubt the coincidence. IMO, there must have been one or another GG (one of them being Duke). I don't see Duke being invited to the G6 without being a GG himself... or being promoted just for the sake of being able to join the G6. Also remember, not every campaign consisted of 100k+ men.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Well the system is called six GREAT generals of Qin, would make sense that they were all great generals.

Well maybe he was playing favorites or there were just 6GG level guys who joined his group, trustworthy or not. At least most of them were trustworthy as no one ever had the balls to rebel.

But when he asked Duke to join the group and Duke just ignored him, that's not a very good thing for Duke.
I have hard time believing that a King would promote someone who ignores him to a GG, especially when he already has 6.

I still think he was promoted after the 6GG started losing their members. Duke has probably been a GG for like 20 years at best. I'd say he was like 50-55 years old when he died.


----------



## Katou (May 10, 2014)

I thought they were called 6GG because they were the top 6 Great General 

so Duke wasn't GG back when the system was still alive?


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 10, 2014)

At the very least, we could be certain that Duke was a general for over 12 years, since that's the time when King Shō died. He had to be a general for the king to summon him numerous times.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

The system of 6GG was based on trust not on strength. Sure all of the 6 were strong, but guys like Ousen, Duke, Moubu and Kanki are all good enough to have been part of the 6 had they been born a little earlier or in Duke's case had he cared about joining.

You can't have 6GG with independent armies making war as they please if they are not very trustworthy.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well the system is called six GREAT generals of Qin, would make sense that they were all great generals.



Well, we don't that. Based on what I've written, he could have promoted some of his generals for the sake of making them members of the G6. I doubt they were all GG and coincidentally the ONLY 6 GG TRUSTWORTHY at the same for for King Sho to enlist them. But you could be right as well, at this point we are just swingin' 'n' missing with all this speculation.



> But when he asked Duke to join the group and Duke just ignored him, that's not a very good thing for Duke.
> I have hard time believing that a King would promote someone who ignores him to a GG, especially when he already has 6



No, I said that in order to try to distinction whether you HAD to be a GG before being asked to join G6 or whether King Sho would just promote people.



> I still think he was promoted after the 6GG started losing their members. Duke has probably been a GG for like 20 years at best. I'd say he was like 50-55 years old when he died.



Sorry, I don't keep up with the timelines, but wasn't the invite to G6 within the 20 years you speak of? Were you not of the believe he was just a G at the time of the invite?



Wallachia said:


> I thought they were called 6GG because they were the top 6 Great General
> 
> so Duke wasn't GG back when the system was still alive?



They were called G6 because there just happened 6 GG trustworthy enough to be in the G6. It could have easily been G3, G4, G5 etc.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Moe said:


> Sorry, I don't keep up with the timelines, but wasn't the invite to G6 within the 20 years you speak of? Were you not of the believe he was just a G at the time of the invite?
> .



Well, given Duke Hyou's age its likely that he was asked to join the 6 before Kyou, but he never joined. Kyou became one of the 6 like....14-20 years ago. 

Don't really know how long Duke had been GG before he died, but something like 15-20 years seems very likely. But it could even be less than that.
I really doubt he was a GG while the 6GG were in their prime, I see no reason for King Sho to trust a man like Duke Hyou while he already had 6GG under him. 
So yeah, I believe Duke Hyou was a general when he was invited to join the 6, but since he didn't accept the invitation he stayed as a general till the 6GG started losing members and Qin really needed more great generals.

Anyway all of the 6 were great generals, its stated in the Kyou/Ouki flashback that all of them were great generals. And it seems that Kyou was promoted to a GG when she finally joined the other 5.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well, given Duke Hyou's age its likely that he was asked to join the 6 before Kyou, but he never joined. Kyou became one of the 6 like....14-20 years ago.



Very legit point. 



lazorwalrus said:


> Anyway all of the 6 were great generals, its stated in the Kyou/Ouki flashback that all of them were great generals. And it seems that Kyou was promoted to a GG when she finally joined the other 5.




Do you think she was promoted to join the other 5 (favouritism - his daughter) or she joined the other 5 after being promoted?

Do you remember which chapter this is? I'd like to read it again.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

She was promoted after multiple achievements as a general. 

Its chapter 164.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

Aaahhh, what a lovely chapter.

I really have to schedule my time so I can reread Kingdom again from scratch and maybe also write some mini-essays on topics anyone here would be interested in.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

You haven't reread it even once??? I thought it was normal to reread it like at least 3 times.

Anyway, I'm interested, I guess I'll reread it too.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> You haven't reread it even once??? I thought it was normal to reread it like at least 3 times.
> 
> Anyway, I'm interested, I guess I'll reread it too.



Actually I've started reading from the anime.

I've been meaning to reread it from scratch for a while. I just never got any time. I was planning to do it as soon as TF catches up and write on some topics. The only topic I have in mind is:

Weight
Analysis on each of the Qin generals (Those with decent exposure).


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

TF will be caught up with the Japanese raws this Sunday. I got no idea as to why there are Chinese raws up to 387, but Japanese only up to 385.

You actually haven't read the first arcs of the manga? Only seen the anime? The fuck? Did you at least read the parts that the anime skipped? Did you even read the Zhao war in the manga? If you haven't, you have missed out on a lot all this time.

Rereading is pretty important imo, in a manga like Kingdom especially where there are a bunch of little things that you might miss if you only read it once.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> TF will be caught up with the Japanese raws this Sunday. I got no idea as to why there are Chinese raws up to 387, but Japanese only up to 385.
> 
> You actually haven't read the first arcs of the manga? Only seen the anime? The fuck? Did you at least read the parts that the anime skipped? Did you even read the Zhao war in the manga? If you haven't, you have missed out on a lot all this time.
> 
> Rereading is pretty important imo, in a manga like Kingdom especially where there are a bunch of little things that you might miss if you only read it once.



No to everything. I haven't done any of that. I've been meaning to, I swear, but Kingdom isn't like some bleach chapter. 

I'M SORRY. 

I take like 30 secs to go through a bleach chapter. It takes me like 5 minutes to go through a Kingdom chapter. I've been meaning to start it during the summer since I just finished with school like 10 days ago.

I also like writing about Kingdom, so I had to do it during at a time where I had a lot more free time so I could write without being distracted.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

WHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTT. 

All this time and you haven't even read the assassination arc???? You haven't seen the manliness that was Ouki vs Houken in the manga? You haven't seen Ryofui's sex scene? I am shocked, just shocked.

The manga is massively superior to the anime and you haven't even read the entire manga.
All of that great art and bloody scenes and all you know about it is some 3D CGI mess!?

Go read the manga now pls.


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

Moe....wow. Son I am well beyond disappoint 

You missed the assassin arc with Kyoukai!
And the Zhao war is a great re-read because you find out so many things that the anime never really made apparently. Just little, subtle things.

Re-read from the end of the Duke/Gokei arc to the end of Zhao vs Qin. Now. Do it. GO


----------



## Muk (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> TF will be caught up with the Japanese raws this Sunday. I got no idea as to why there are Chinese raws up to 387, but Japanese only up to 385.
> 
> You actually haven't read the first arcs of the manga? Only seen the anime? The fuck? Did you at least read the parts that the anime skipped? Did you even read the Zhao war in the manga? If you haven't, you have missed out on a lot all this time.
> 
> Rereading is pretty important imo, in a manga like Kingdom especially where there are a bunch of little things that you might miss if you only read it once.


link to 387? i am only finding 386 on baidu


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

I will start right now.


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

Why exactly does a Japanese manga series have Chinese raws before Japanese?

I never understood the concept behind this Japanese/Chinese. Which does Hara use? And does 'Li Mu' in Chinese actually sound like 'Riboku'?


----------



## Saishin (May 10, 2014)

Poor Seikyou,he was a asshole but in the end he changed and helped Sei


----------



## Zeit (May 10, 2014)

Muk said:


> link to 387? i am only finding 386 on baidu



136 trans


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 10, 2014)

Muk said:


> link to 387? i am only finding 386 on baidu


136 trans


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

Moe, if you re-read and want to do it a little quicker, use Kissmanga. It has every page in one (just scroll down), so you don't have to keep clicking onto the next page.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Why exactly does a Japanese manga series have Chinese raws before Japanese?
> 
> I never understood the concept behind this Japanese/Chinese. Which does Hara use? And does 'Li Mu' in Chinese actually sound like 'Riboku'?



No clue as to why Japanese raws come after the Chinese ones. 

Anyway, Li Mu in Japanese sounds like Riboku ( I think ). 
Turnipfarmers use the Japanese names of the characters, but the Chinese names for the states.


----------



## Saishin (May 10, 2014)

Glad to see again Gohoumei,he was one of my fav character in the Kankoku Pass battle


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 10, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Moe, if you re-read and want to do it a little quicker, use Kissmanga. It has every page in one (just scroll down), so you don't have to keep clicking onto the next page.



Dude, I use kissmanga for EVERYTHING.

Same with Kissanime.


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> No clue as to why Japanese raws come after the Chinese ones.
> 
> Anyway, Li Mu in Japanese sounds like Riboku ( I think ).
> Turnipfarmers use the Japanese names of the characters, but the Chinese names for the states.



Do we know which one Hara actually uses?

The Chinese have a messed up language. Some of those names sound nothing like how they're spelled at all lol.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Well Hara just does it in Japanese I assume. He writes down everything in Japanese. So the state names for the Japanese guys sound differently than to us. Like Yan is En in Japanese.

I watched the anime to hear how the names sound in Japanese.

Turnipfarmers decided to use Chinese state names and the Japanese character names, but they translate from the Japanese raws.


----------



## Saishin (May 10, 2014)

Other cool generals


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

I'm still a little surprised Wei had SEVEN Great Generals. I wonder how high Gokei ranked with those 7, since we have a good idea of his level. It's just a bit weird seeing as Zhao only had 3. I can only assume that Gokei must have been one of, if not the strongest Wei General. 

One minor mistake from Hara is that if people had been lead to believe that Renpa had killed one of their 7, why was Renpa allowed to join Wei, and how come no one bothered to ask Renpa if it were true? Can you imagine the people of Qin's reaction to Riboku or Houken joining their state?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Wei was getting raped by Qin, someone like Renpa wanting to join the state was like a blessing.

I doubt they would care about Renpa killing some dude that rebelled anyway or started fighting against his own country men.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Wei was getting raped by Qin, someone like Renpa wanting to join the state was like a blessing.
> 
> I doubt they would care about Renpa killing some dude that rebelled anyway or started fighting against his own country men.



Now that you mention it, isn't it strange they didn't release those guys sooner?
Considering Wei's standing they would have helped tremendously and we know the current king has no grudge with them.


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Wei was getting raped by Qin, someone like Renpa wanting to join the state was like a blessing.
> 
> I doubt they would care about Renpa killing some dude that rebelled anyway or started fighting against his own country men.



Was it public knowledge that they were fighting?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Does it really matter? I'm sure everyone who mattered actually knew about it. Renpa is Renpa, this dude is a legendary general, I'm sure any king would be more than glad to invite him to their court, especially if they were losing battles at the time. 

Renpa lived on his own private estate anyway which seemed to be away from any city as Ouki was able to go there with his army without being stopped. Its not like Renpa spent a lot time with the common folk in Wei.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 10, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Was it public knowledge that they were fighting?



Probably.
Assuming they used their armies, it would be hard to conceal a battle between 6 great generals.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 10, 2014)

Moe's revelation is more shocking then the last month of kingdom.

What a blessing to be able to have a whole arc waiting for you on top of the beyond epicness that is the Zhao war.

387 translated yet ?


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

I know that historically Mougou was not a Great General whilst Hakuki was alive. As Mougou was ranked as Qin's number 1 General, I have a hard time believing Duke was a Great General during the times of King Sho. My theory is that he was just a really powerful General.

We don't really know if you could be a Great General without being in the 6 either. 6 is a large number, and Mougou's example suggests not.

I see it as you had the 9 Generals and at different points, 6 of them became King Sho's GG's (Hakuki being first, Kyou being last), with Duke, Choutou and Mougou never reaching the rank. 

The only thing that suggests I could be wrong is that Zhao had Great Generals without being a Heaven (GakuJoe), but then there's not been anything to suggest the 3 + 6 + 7 were in the same situation of trying to unify China, being trusted by the King etc. The 3 + 7 might 'just' have been elite Generals from their states, no more or less.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 10, 2014)

Well at the point when GakuJoe went against Renpa, the other 2 great heavens were already dead.
Zhao needed new great generals to replace the dead great heavens as well. So its likely that the young Gakujoe only became a great general after the great heavens were gone. Like Renpa said that he was the last one left of the 6GG or the 3GH.

So I don't think that your wrong KIG, your probably right with all that you just said.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 10, 2014)

Let me just add in a reminder as there appears to be a constant stream of de-hyping for the Qin's 6GG.


*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 








In the words of General Ouki, It seems you've all slightly misunderstood the six great generals.

They weren't the 6 because they were trustworthy to King Sho, that was probably the last requirement.  They were the 6 GG because they had the ability to back it up


----------



## Kanki (May 10, 2014)

It's not that anyone underestimates them - everyone knows how great they were, but they weren't all on Ouki's level. Remember we're talking about SIX elites here. 2 of whom were definitely 'top tier', with 4 being really powerful themselves. Re-read the whole chapter from those images (106). I get the impression there were still only 6 Great Generals in that  time frame from Qin. Makes sense, as even pre-coalition arc, Qin had just 4.

Then again Ouki is factually incorrect as we know Duke was asked to be a member of the 6 but refused. Qin's 6 was the single strongest group of Generals that we've seen in the manga, but that doesn't mean other states don't have several Generals themselves capable of being that in that group. But collectively, no other state had that much power.

One sports team might have 2 or 3 players who're good enough to be in the opposing team, but that doesn't mean collectively both teams have  to be equal.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

Turnipfarmers release of 383 and 384 is out. Ch.14

Anyway their schedule is now a bit weird since the raws are limited and they want the best quality possible.
So they will be releasing 385 this Thursday and 386 + 387 on Sunday, but there are no Japanese raws out of 386 and 387 so we might not get both of them this week. 
No clue as to why the Japanese raws are behind the Chinese ones.


----------



## Katou (May 11, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



God Damn. . didn't Expect the Wiki will give me this much Spoiler  . .

Unless Hara is going to do it differently


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

Wallachia said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's based on history. Why wouldn't it contain spoilers?


----------



## Katou (May 11, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> It's based on history. Why wouldn't it contain spoilers?



I Didn't think the Major Events would match up Directly .. 
Plus the Names there were different. . but i could tell it was them according of what they did in the wiki

I thought Hara was just using the Chinese 200bc. Setting . .and doing his Magic. . 
It didn't cross my mind that it was based on true story *smacks myself


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

Yeah...Hara doesn't add those historical notes for no reason lol... 

I was unfortunate enough to have read into this before I even started Kingdom.


----------



## Katou (May 11, 2014)

I thought he made those Notes up . . .

 . . and was using it in Past tense like he was writing a story


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

This chapter confirmed to me that the strategists statement about Ouki/Renpa knowing Gaimou was superior in combat, was just Wei-General bias.

Supposedly the Wei soldiers had never been seen fighting so well against Gaimou, and we know Ouki + Renpa are still superior to Shin in combat. If Shin is the strongest Gaimou has ever fought, then it makes the Renpa/Ouki comment seem irrelevant.

I'm sticking by my original theory of Gaimou being on the low end of the elite bracket, in combat.


----------



## Turrin (May 11, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> This chapter confirmed to me that the strategists statement about Ouki/Renpa knowing Gaimou was superior in combat, was just Wei-General bias.
> 
> Supposedly the Wei soldiers had never been seen fighting so well against Gaimou, and we know Ouki + Renpa are still superior to Shin in combat. If Shin is the strongest Gaimou has ever fought, then it makes the Renpa/Ouki comment seem irrelevant.
> 
> I'm sticking by my original theory of Gaimou being on the low end of the elite bracket, in combat.


I told you Kanki


----------



## Muk (May 11, 2014)

Gaimou still could give renpa and ouki a run for his money though; just like how duke could give them a run for his money

i think he's similar to duke in strength and style; 

and it shows that shin has very little experience with the glaive; guess him using his sword may be better for him in a straight up battle xD


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

No, using a sword would mean certain death vs a glaive on horseback. Especially a master with the glaive like Gaimou would slaughter Shin if he was using his sword.

Shin is no Tou.

I'm hoping for a scene where Shin loses his glaive in a fight and finishes off his opponent with the good old jump attack.


----------



## convict (May 11, 2014)

In regards to the Gaimou strength discussion...lets be clear here. He has distinctly been portrayed to be above Ranbihaku. Ranbihaku is a subordinate of Reiou while Gaimou is Fire Dragon himself who is known purely for his combat strength. Being a subordinate of a Fire Dragon doesn't mean he is weaker (for example Tou is likely individually stronger than a few of the 6 generals) but Gaimou is only known for his combat power. That is his forte. I highly doubt his colleague, who is a strategist, trumps him in having more muscle than him alongside the smarts. If Ranbihaku could give Ouki trouble (as was mentioned) then Gaimou should at least be able to give him a good match. I am personally sticking with Gaimou fitting snugly in between Tou and Ouki (not a huge gap but a gap nonetheless).


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

I'd like to see Hara show some differences in weapon styles. For eg a mace user struggle against the speed of a sword user. Based on what we've seen I can't see how Tou would last more than 5 seconds against Moubu, for instance. 

I would probably say that Tou is the most skillful fighter we've seen so far.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 11, 2014)

You just defeated Rinbokun, Ouhon's fighting Kyokou, Kanki shot the fire arrow. Maybe In has an chance!


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

I hope we see some reaction from other states regarding the Dragon's returning. Always like that kind of thing. Good way of foreshadowing other characters too, like when Gekishin commented on Ouki's death. 

Maybe have a conversation in the King palace between an official and a powerful General or something...



convict said:


> In regards to the Gaimou strength discussion...lets be clear here. He has distinctly been portrayed to be above Ranbihaku. Ranbihaku is a subordinate of Reiou while Gaimou is Fire Dragon himself who is known purely for his combat strength. Being a subordinate of a Fire Dragon doesn't mean he is weaker (for example Tou is likely individually stronger than a few of the 6 generals) but Gaimou is only known for his combat power. That is his forte. I highly doubt his colleague, who is a strategist, trumps him in having more muscle than him alongside the smarts. If Ranbihaku could give Ouki trouble (as was mentioned) then Gaimou should at least be able to give him a good match. I am personally sticking with Gaimou fitting snugly in between Tou and Ouki (not a huge gap but a gap nonetheless).



Yeah Gaimou is definitely on their level.

Completely useless point, but I can see Gaimou's stats being something like 96 for strength (equal to Tou, one below Renpa), 70 for intelligence, 85 for leadership.

I'd like to see Tou go all out against an elite combat General one day. Can't see it happening because Moubu + Shin are or will be in the way.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

We should get some reactions from other states depending on the out come of this war if Qin wins it pretty much means everyone needs to start preparing for in coming Qin invasion of their lands.

And we should definitely get some reaction after Sei vs Ryo is over. Which is a pretty weird thing right now, I wonder how long will this arc take and will Ryo and Sei go at it without Shin being there.

Ryo has to make his move pretty soon and Shin is still occupied in Wei and then there's the whole after invasion part if they win where they have to spend months securing the areas and establishing borders like with Sanyou.

I really don't think that Shin wont be a part of the final Sei vs Ryo clash, but it would be kinda interesting if he wasn't.


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> You just defeated Rinbokun, Ouhon's fighting Kyokou, Kanki shot the fire arrow. Maybe In has an chance!



How the hell are you reading so fast, btw? Like 3 days ago you were approaching Ouki's death


----------



## convict (May 11, 2014)

I'm going to go with a 97-98 strength stat for Gaimou.


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> We should get some reactions from other states depending on the out come of this war if Qin wins it pretty much means everyone needs to start preparing for in coming Qin invasion of their lands.



I was going to talk about this the other day actually, but I have a theory which I hope isn't true. If Qin are to unify with Han > Wei > Zhao > Yan > Qi > Chu, I can actually see Qi just bending over and giving up straight away. 

Qi aren't exactly a power house and if Qin are at one time, the size of Qin+Wei+Han+Yan+Zhao combined, then Qi would have to be idiots to think they could prevent a take over. Plus as the two states are allies it seems, I don't think Qin will be blood lusted enough to actually want to kick their ass.

It'll be interesting to see how Hara can create suspense later on in the series. Once we know Qin have defeated a bunch of states, how exactly can he make us feel like Qi and even Yan can potentially beat Qin in a war?



> And we should definitely get some reaction after Sei vs Ryo is over. Which is a pretty weird thing right now, I wonder how long will this arc take and will Ryo and Sei go at it without Shin being there.
> 
> Ryo has to make his move pretty soon and Shin is still occupied in Wei and then there's the whole after invasion part if they win where they have to spend months securing the areas and establishing borders like with Sanyou.
> 
> I really don't think that Shin wont be a part of the final Sei vs Ryo clash, but it would be kinda interesting if he wasn't.



I don't see how Shin can fit tbh. Unless he fights off against some assassins. Maybe Hara could bring back the whole Kyoukai-Shiyu sub plot if Ryofui tries to hire them, and they find Kyoukai alive and well?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

I was thinking about Shin's promise to Sei that he would become a general once Sei is crowned which is now 1 year away. He needs a big achievement for that and I currently see only 3 things.

Shin kills Gaimou and the war is won.

Shin plays a major role in defeating Ryofui.

Shin plays a major role in winning the war against Wei, but doesn't kill Gaimou. This would mean that he plays a really MAJOR role in defeating Wei.


I'm sure Hara can make suspense as the arcs go by. Like when you think about it, Qin is the military super power, but yet we have them being outnumbered in like every single war. 
Qin has to spread their forces thin in order to invade the other states and even after the states are conquered Qin will need to have quite a lot of men to stay behind and make sure that there are no rebellions and such.


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I was thinking about Shin's promise to Sei that he would become a general once Sei is crowned which is now 1 year away. He needs a big achievement for that and I currently see only 3 things.
> 
> Shin kills Gaimou and the war is won.
> 
> ...



I don't like option A + C. Especially A. 

Hopefully he helps Sei somehow. I'm sure Ryofui will try dirty tactics so Sei will need protection. It seems so soon for Shin....wow. Probably would feel different if I hadn't just read about 5 years of Kingdom in a few months lol.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

Yup, we've read 8 years worth of chapters in just 1 or in most cases in like 6-8 months. And funnily enough that's like 8 years of the manga timeline as well. 

And yeah, I really hope Gaimou doesn't die or the other fire dragons for that matter. Reiou can die, but if 2 of them die or all of them die, I see no point even showing the future Wei invasion tbh. 
These guys need to stay in order for there to be a fight in the future and this arc is perfect for setting up their characters and the future match ups with Shin and Ouhon.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Yup, we've read 8 years worth of chapters in just 1 or in most cases in like 6-8 months. And funnily enough that's like 8 years of the manga timeline as well.
> 
> And yeah, I really hope Gaimou doesn't die or the other fire dragons for that matter. Reiou can die, but if 2 of them die or all of them die, I see no point even showing the future Wei invasion tbh.
> These guys need to stay in order for there to be a fight in the future and this arc is perfect for setting up their characters and the future match ups with Shin and Ouhon.



I get what you're saying, but you weren't saying the Wei invasion was pointless long before we knew the fire dragons existed.

This could also be the alarming moment for all of China as Wei loses the decisive war.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 11, 2014)

No, not really. I always thought that Hara would introduce someone or some people that would make Wei a greater threat. Gohoumei alone wouldn't of been enough.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 11, 2014)

Caught up to Kingdom!


----------



## B Rabbit (May 11, 2014)

Well I must say I'm breathless, this manga top ten easily for me. To many characters I like, the art is nice. The plot is mzing.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 11, 2014)

Shin
Ouki
Kanki
Kyokai
Moubu
Tou
Ten 
Bajifou
Yontawa
Rinbonku

My faves.


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

Rinbinko is a new one 
I don't know if you mean Riboku, Rinbukun or Ranbihaku 



B Rabbit said:


> Well I must say I'm breathless, this manga top ten easily for me. To many characters I like, the art is nice. The plot is mzing.



Favorite characters?
Favorite moments?
Best fight?
Favorite arc?
Saddest moment?
Expectations of the current arc?

We need more from you Bunny boi.

edit:

A few different sites are up to different chapters. What have you been reading from?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 11, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Shin
> Ouki
> Kanki
> Kyokai
> ...



Few more names and you'd have listed the entire cast.

And who the hell is Bajifou and Rinbonky? You mean that dual-wielding, mountain tribe soldier, Bajio?


----------



## Kanki (May 11, 2014)

That's what happens when you read it all in about a week. 

Moe, read the Zhao arc? Or the assassin mini arc? Or even the one shots??


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 11, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> That's what happens when you read it all in about a week.
> 
> Moe, read the Zhao arc? Or the assassin mini arc? Or even the one shots??



No. I started so no worries. I'll keep you updated. I was thinking of making notes and and writing a couple mini-essays but I'll leave that for the next time I reread considering you two would prolly want me to get through it withina reasonable amount of time.. Also, I forgot about the oneshots. I am sure Walrus told me which one to read and and how far into it. So how many one shots are there and how far do I read into them.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 11, 2014)

Spelling of names tke me a while.


----------



## Lord Genome (May 11, 2014)

When do chapters get released


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 12, 2014)

Moe, you should read the Li Mu one shot about Riboku, but don't read the other one shot at all, its full of spoilers even from the very start.

And I have no clue when the next chapters will come out, Chinese raws come out on Saturdays and the Japanese ones I don't know about, its been 2 weeks since I've seen a new Japanese raw.

Turnipfarmers should do up to chapter 387 by this Sunday if everything goes right tho.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 12, 2014)

Well no chapter yet. Im so bussy all the time now..

TF are looking for scans ( japanease scans for a high quality )
Mangajoy i have no idea if they do something anymore


----------



## Katou (May 12, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Caught up to Kingdom!



You are incredibly Fast . . :amazed
took me months to catch up


----------



## rajin (May 12, 2014)

*Kingdom 386 Raw*

*Chapter 57*


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 12, 2014)

Yeah, I know that, but those are the Chinese raws. Turnipfarmers and such prefer to translate from the Japanese ones.


----------



## Katou (May 12, 2014)

How does one get Japanese Raw ? 
does someone in Japan buys the Volume . .Scans it . .then Sends them (via Internet)? 

Does is it work that way? or my Imagination is off


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 12, 2014)

Your imagination is probably correct, at least that's how I see it happening.

Turnipfarmers said something about not wanting to translate the Chinese raws as they have less details and are filtered somehow. 

Chapter 386 translation should be out by tomorrow (probably).


----------



## Katou (May 12, 2014)

They probably don't like Translating Chinese Raw because they have less knowledge on the language

They Translate Japanese Raw because they studied the language right? 
or do they have other unknown schemes to translate it  

and to think they're doing this for free. . ( only people with time Donates )


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 12, 2014)

Nah, they said that they can translate Chinese as well, but the Chinese raws have some alterations to the text so it would miss a bunch of details from the original Japanese ones.


----------



## Kanki (May 12, 2014)

Maggot Brain said:


> [
> *
> Edit: But to say something negative*... I do believe that Shin was too strong in the beginning... Defeating Sanji already (who was even acknowledged by Ouki and Tou).



My only gripe too. A first-war rookie shouldn't be beating one of the bows of China or a Great Genera's security guard...type person.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 12, 2014)

Keep in mind that Saji was hit twice by Heki and those were pretty deep wounds. Shin even said that he felt as if Saji lost half of his strength and speed after those 2 hits.

Don't think Shin would of won him if Heki never hit him.


----------



## Kanki (May 12, 2014)

Shame we never got to see more more Kaishibou and Kyouen. I never know how to rank them as far as other generals go. How do they compare to Rinbukun, Rukuomi, Keisha etc.

Kyouen had a pretty epic design. Even better in the anime as well.

/RandomPost.


----------



## rajin (May 12, 2014)

there exist no chinese raws >> only chinese scans >> chinese translations
JAPANESE RAW >> original source. getting raw provider difficult job.

overall i will start and read it in 1 go in june if everything goes right. good knowledgeable series must read.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 12, 2014)

Rajin is the first sentient bot. 
He detects all new raws and discussions about raws, to contribute with the manga world takeover.

*Spoiler*: __ 




This was top secret info, if you are reading this, it means the Shiyu has already been dispatched to eliminate you.
Have a pleasant life, however short it may be.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 12, 2014)

By Chinese raws I think people simply mean the Chinese scans/translations, which for some reason seem to appear online before the Japanese translations/scans.


----------



## Kanki (May 12, 2014)

Maggot Brain said:


> Mangabird always do the Chinese scans/translations. They are the fastest.



Hi Bitou


----------



## Turrin (May 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Favorite characters?
> Favorite moments?
> Best fight?
> Favorite arc?
> Saddest moment?



FC - Kyoukai
FM - Kyoukai vs her sisters
Best Fight - Kyoukai vs her sisters
FA - Kyoukai vs her sisters mini-arc
SM - Kyoukai vs her sisters

Thought I'd answer this because it would be funny, as those are all my honest answers.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 12, 2014)

Someones a kyokai fanboy.


----------



## Kanki (May 12, 2014)

Kyoukai-tard.
Haku-set.



Turrin's girlfriend is probably a he.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 12, 2014)

FC - Shin
Favorite moment - Slaying Fuuki
Favorite fight - Shin vs Rinko
Favorite arc - Coalition army vs. Qin
SM- Duke hYou death


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 12, 2014)

Meh i hope we get the trans for the last 2 chapters.


----------



## Sasuke (May 12, 2014)

reading the coalition war arc currently

I think Berserk may have been topped in my personal favorite mango list

Tou


----------



## Punk Zebra (May 12, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> reading the coalition war arc currently
> 
> I think Berserk may have been topped in my personal favorite mango list
> 
> Tou



Thats only because Berserk takes months to come out right?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 12, 2014)

Punk Zebra said:


> Thats only because Berserk takes months to come out right?



In my case, Kingdom knocked down Berserk of its pedestal as well.


----------



## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Kyoukai-tard.
> Haku-set.
> 
> 
> ...


Are you calling Kyoukai a guy 




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Someones a kyokai fanboy.


Everyone should be a Kyoukai fanboy, one of the best written characters i've seen in a while. Besides some of the Beyond the Boundary characters



Punk Zebra said:


> Thats only because Berserk takes months to come out right?


So true.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 13, 2014)

Punk Zebra said:


> Thats only because Berserk takes months to come out right?



No the fucking sea god shit sucked


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 13, 2014)

Turrin, 
you cant deny you seem to have a thing for cross dressers, though


----------



## Beckman (May 13, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> reading the coalition war arc currently
> 
> I think Berserk may have been topped in my personal favorite mango list
> 
> Tou



Tou Is God


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 13, 2014)

Don't think Ousen will come unless hes ordered to. Hes not allowed to take part in battles that he isn't told to go.
He has a job to hold back Zhao, he can't just leave that alone.


----------



## sadino (May 13, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> No the fucking sea god shit sucked



THIS.

What a terrible arc.


----------



## -Ziltoid- (May 13, 2014)

^ Well, Seagod arc just didn't make much sense. No real progress to the plot either. Can't say the arc itself was that bad, but in the given context it was just useless..



Maggot Brain said:


> *A question in the meantime: **Do people believe Ousen will come for help? Tou may be the best Qin general right now, but still... the Wei are with way too much.*



No, and Ouhon explained why. Though I could see him send some smaller detachment.


----------



## Kanki (May 13, 2014)

Because I was negged I feel the urge to say a big hello to Bitou 

I know who you are


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Because I was negged I feel the urge to say a big hello to Bitou
> 
> I know who you are



Yea, if he negged you, that basically confirmed it. What an idiot...

I'M STILL READING!!!


----------



## Kanki (May 13, 2014)

Moe said:


> Yea, if he negged you, that basically confirmed it. What an idiot...
> 
> I'M STILL READING!!!



He pm'd me with one account, and then negged me with another. He has two accounts, though I shall not divulge his whereabouts. 

Unless I change my mind.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> He pm'd me with one account, and then negged me with another. He has two accounts, though I shall not divulge his whereabouts.
> 
> Unless I change my mind.



Dat dedication...


----------



## Turrin (May 13, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Turrin,
> you cant deny you seem to have a thing for cross dressers, though


I think i'm simply a victim of statistics. After all 1 out every 2 manga/anime characters are cross dressers.


----------



## Kanki (May 13, 2014)

Message from Bitou: 

How could I?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 13, 2014)

[vocaroo]s0ZomIZy6stH[/vocaroo]

He send me one as well...


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Message from Bitou:
> 
> How could I?



Truly, how could you?



Moe said:


> [vocaroo]s0ZomIZy6stH[/vocaroo]
> 
> He send me one as well...



Moe, why do you betray him, even if he raped Sei's girl?



I really am starting to love this guys style. The comments plus videos are hilarious to me.
So why do you guys think of him as a persona non grata in the first place?


----------



## Kanki (May 13, 2014)

He was alright until he started spamming a bit. Plus I know a lot of people used to mock the Kingdom thread because of him and other "Naruto tards", so meh....

I like his YT vids though!


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 13, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Truly, how could you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all, this is an American forum, so speak english. None of this mexican shit.

But seriously, it is because he keeps making dupes, posting here pretending like he is a new/old Kingdom fan that wants to be part of the community, deceiving people, to get banned like day later, and then he repeats the process over again, constantly trying to pretend he's someone new. It has gotten so bad that we assume every new poster here (recent join date and/or low post count) is automatically Modderfakker/Bitou/Maggot Brain/SageNaruto21/etc.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 13, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Truly, how could you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Kanki Is God said:


> He was alright until he started spamming a bit. Plus I know a lot of people used to mock the Kingdom thread because of him and other "Naruto tards", so meh....
> 
> I like his YT vids though!





Moe said:


> First of all, this is an American forum, so speak english. None of this mexican shit.
> 
> But seriously, it is because he keeps making dupes, posting here pretending like he is a new/old Kingdom fan that wants to be part of the community, deceiving people, to get banned like day later, and then he repeats the process over again, constantly trying to pretend he's someone new. It has gotten so bad that we assume every new poster here (recent join date and/or low post count) is automatically Modderfakker/Bitou/Maggot Brain/SageNaruto21/etc.





 !!!!


----------



## B Rabbit (May 13, 2014)

Berserk still better than Kingdom for me.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 13, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Berserk still better than Kingdom for me.



GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!!


**


----------



## Kanki (May 13, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> Berserk still better than Kingdom for me.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 13, 2014)

I'm a huge fan of Berserk!

It's not even close to Kingdom.


----------



## Kanki (May 13, 2014)

I think the Golden Age was. Amazing writing.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I think the Golden Age was. Amazing writing.



The biggest reason we all still rank Berserk in top 3


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 13, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> The biggest reason we all still rank Berserk in top 3



Numbah 2 fo' me! I promised myself I was done with Berserk, but when the latest chapter was released, I caved in within seconds.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 13, 2014)

Moe said:


> Numbah 2 fo' me! I promised myself I was done with Berserk, but when the latest chapter was released, I caved in within seconds.



I read it instantly out of shock and curiosity. Dat artwork.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 14, 2014)

Braveheart gets me every time


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

Its been like 2 weeks since I read a new Kingdom chapter....this is like the worst thing since the turnipfarmers xmas break. 

Where are muh Kingdoms??? How are you guys dealing with this???


----------



## Kanki (May 14, 2014)

Lucky for me (or unlucky) all my attention is on my uni work atm. Last 2 weeks now with loads of assignments to take the edge off.

I've seen the latest raw. I caved 
spoiler:

*Spoiler*: __ 



About to see Shihaku. Can't wait.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 14, 2014)

It sucks because it's hard to know where everyone is currently with the translations pending which website.

Hopefully when TF catches up we'll all be on the same page.

@KIG: dat new chap


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

Fuck that then, I read the raw as well or the shitty translation of it (my god even google translator does a better job).

*Spoiler*: __ 




Now I wonder what was the real point behind Ten being captured, this is seemingly going to lead to some development sooner or later. Kyoukai looked pretty miserable even though her actions saved Ten's life, is this the friendzone? Something will happen with the girls and Shin, am sure of it.

Gotta say I like the Chinese name for this guy, Zibo sounds pretty badass imo.




At least we got something to talk about now.


----------



## Kanki (May 14, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Is it me or do Ten + Shin see each other in different ways? Shin was quite clear in that he sees her as a sister, but Ten sounds as if she might have feelings for him.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Is it me or do Ten + Shin see each other in different ways? Shin was quite clear in that he sees her as a sister, but Ten sounds as if she might have feelings for him.




*Spoiler*: __ 



It would seem to be that way, the translation was complete ass, but that's what I got from it.
Shin sees Ten as a younger sister, but Ten seems to feel something more than that.

But what I'm really interested in is where Kyoukai stands, Hara made several panels of Kyoukai's face while Shin was talking about Ten and when Ten came back and she looked quite sad and surprised. 
This could be what leads to a break up between Shin and Kyoukai or this could be what leads to some real romance between them, as Kyoukai seems to also have feelings towards Shin.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 14, 2014)

So its raw reading now.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

Well its translated....kinda.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 14, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well its translated....kinda.


----------



## Canuckgirl (May 14, 2014)

So, who wants to bet that Ouhon is going to have a very hard time with that Wei spear guy?  His advance on the Wei Army is far too easy, right now, so I look forward to his duel with that Wei Dragon


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 14, 2014)

Canuckgirl said:


> So, who wants to bet that Ouhon is going to have a very hard time with that Wei spear guy?  His advance on the Wei Army is far too easy, right now, so I look forward to his duel with that Wei Dragon



Hard to argue that.

I'm hoping Ouhon gets humbled.  Shin already ruined the spanking Rinko was going to give him


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

I wanna see some awesome shit from Shihaku, some new top tier spear moves.

I can't imagine Hara letting Ouhon outshine Shin so badly that Ouhon would actually beat Shihaku.

Rokuomi vs Ranbihaku is going to be interesting as Rokuomi might actually die....


----------



## Kanki (May 14, 2014)

Currently having what could be (for him) a life and death argument regarding the character designs in Kingdom.

Any panels I should use to shut this fool up?


----------



## eluna (May 14, 2014)

Where is my Kingdom fuck danmit? Is better they translate 4 or 5 chapters at once


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

Hmm? I mean what do you even need to say. Character designs are mostly unique in Kingdom and every major character has their own look. The art is great and there's very little to complain about.

You can show him Kanki, Renpa, Tou, Ouki...heck just about any character lol. If someone thinks that the character designs are bad in Kingdom and has actually read the series for more than the first arc he is probably just trolling you. Or he really wants to dislike the series for whatever reason.

You probably don't want to waste your time arguing with anyone that thinks that Kingdom has bad art.


----------



## Canuckgirl (May 14, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I wanna see some awesome shit from Shihaku, some new top tier spear moves.
> 
> I can't imagine Hara letting Ouhon outshine Shin so badly that Ouhon would actually beat Shihaku.
> 
> Rokuomi vs Ranbihaku is going to be interesting as Rokuomi might actually die....


 Yes, that would be ridiculous for Ouhon to succeed when Shin was badly beaten by GaiMou



JiraiyaForever said:


> Hard to argue that.
> 
> I'm hoping Ouhon gets humbled.  Shin already ruined the spanking Rinko was going to give him


 It would be about time for that arrogant hot bish to have his pride hurt



lazorwalrus said:


> Hmm? I mean what do you even need to say. Character designs are mostly unique in Kingdom and every major character has their own look. The art is great and there's very little to complain about.
> 
> You can show him Kanki, Renpa, Tou, Ouki...heck just about any character lol. If someone thinks that the character designs are bad in Kingdom and has actually read the series for more than the first arc he is probably just trolling you. Or he really wants to dislike the series for whatever reason.
> 
> You probably don't want to waste your time arguing with anyone that thinks that Kingdom has bad art.


  I love the layout in Kingdom the most.  Truly helps with the pacing and conveying the emotions


----------



## Kanki (May 14, 2014)

Shihaku....I can see him schooling Ouhon. At least I hope so. I wonder what type of character this guy is? 

Arrogant snob vs arrogant snob? Or might Hara surprise us and turn him into a proper troll?



lazorwalrus said:


> Hmm? I mean what do you even need to say. Character designs are mostly unique in Kingdom and every major character has their own look. The art is great and there's very little to complain about.
> 
> You can show him Kanki, Renpa, Tou, Ouki...heck just about any character lol. If someone thinks that the character designs are bad in Kingdom and has actually read the series for more than the first arc he is probably just trolling you. Or he really wants to dislike the series for whatever reason.
> 
> You probably don't want to waste your time arguing with anyone that thinks that Kingdom has bad art.



It's alright. I took his ass down a peg or two.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 14, 2014)

Hmm, based on his appearance Shihaku seems to be a calm and collected. Doesn't seem like a character that has much emotions.

Maybe Ouhon can have a fight without having to shit talk his opponent now, I really hope Hara gives us a proper duel between the two. I so want to see Ouhon in an all out duel with a skilled opponent.

Shihaku might be the first spear user who's top tier in terms of strength that we have seen.
I can't see him being clearly weaker than Gaimou, maybe slightly weaker, but he should be at least low top tier.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 15, 2014)

Sorry for the double post, but Turnipfarmers just released chapter 385 Chapter 33


----------



## Katou (May 15, 2014)

Ouuuuh! its here :33


----------



## Katou (May 15, 2014)

Chances of her Being Raped by Hundreds of Lecherous men are low . .so probably . . someone will step in before they do and demands to solo Ten which will at least buy some time before she gets violated


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 15, 2014)

Gaimou had a smirk, when he heard about the gift, so she still isn't safe.
We all know about his stamina, so good luck Ten.

Though her being in a cage and not tortured for information seems strange to me.
You'd think it would be an ASAP kind of thing for their side, since they are on the defensive and need all the advantages they could get.


----------



## Katou (May 15, 2014)

If Gaimou really likes the gift . .he would personally request Ten to his Private Room  
which will avoid the Hundred Dog Attack . . which is better . .although that stamina that you mentioned tho 

Then Suddenly behind the scenes . .Shin and Kyokkai was already sneak attacking which will suddenly pop up in their minds while in their dispute


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 15, 2014)

Chapter is out. Did anyone else want Kyoukai to sock Shin in the face for losing his cool like that, or is it just me?


----------



## Katou (May 15, 2014)

No. . I also want to . .

although I imagined it differently


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 15, 2014)

Nah, Kyoukai would of been a fool to do that. Shin was overcome with frustration and he let off some steam if Kyoukai pushed it further it would of been even worse.


----------



## Katou (May 15, 2014)

It was partially Kyokai's Fault for not noticing Earlier . . 
and did i saw it correctly. . did she really sliced that squinty eye Guy's Throat?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Nah, Kyoukai would of been a fool to do that. Shin was overcome with frustration and he let off some steam if Kyoukai pushed it further it would of been even worse.




Not to mention the fact, that Shin massively out ranks her and it would be a violation of martial law.
Sure, Shin wouldn't press charges, but its still not good for moral.



Wallachia said:


> It was partially Kyokai's Fault for not noticing Earlier . .
> and did i saw it correctly. . did she really sliced that squinty eye Guy's Throat?




Kyoukai was busy fighting on her own front. Besides I don't think Kyoukai needs to guard Ten, which isn't even a part of her own unit.
Remember Kyoukai might be listening to Shin, because of his rank and friendship, but she isn't his subordinate anymore.

It was said that Shin has his 4000 men and Kyoukai her 1000. So they are separate units now.
Otherwise Shin would have to be a 5000th men commander.

Regarding the throat scene. I don't think she killed him.
I bet he was captured and will be used for a hostage exchange.


----------



## sadino (May 15, 2014)

If anything Kyoukai saved Ten's ass.

Can't think of anyone who could pull that stunt(she kinda used her deepest dance mode there?her leg has those  huge ass veins showing).


----------



## eluna (May 15, 2014)

I just pray for Ten escape alive and well I can't stand to see someone torturing or rape her


----------



## Katou (May 15, 2014)

I'm calling it . .without looking at the raw chapters 

Shin and company will raid at night . . ( Silently ) :ho


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 15, 2014)

Why is it taking so long for TF to catch up? Hasn't the raw for 386 been out for a while? Or is it just the Chinese translation?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 15, 2014)

They ran out of raws I guess. They want to translate the higher quality Japanese raws, but yeah 386 has been out for a while now. Don't really know why TF didn't translate it as well today.

I guess they want to catch up Sunday by doing 2 chapters at once, but by Sunday 388 is probably out.


----------



## Hamtaro (May 15, 2014)

I am finally caught with kingdom after many months reading on and off!


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> They ran out of raws I guess. They want to translate the higher quality Japanese raws, but yeah 386 has been out for a while now. Don't really know why TF didn't translate it as well today.
> 
> I guess they want to catch up Sunday by doing 2 chapters at once, but by Sunday 388 is probably out.



So when do they release the Kingdom chapters in Japan?

I guess they need a dedicated raw purchaser. I haven't been posting here because I already know what happens in 386, I was hoping they'd release that today...


----------



## Kanki (May 15, 2014)

Let me just warn you guys....I'm moving house and won't have internet connection until the 5th of June 

Keep this thread alive fellas 

3 weeks....we should be at Part 7, or near there, when I come back. If we aren't I shall hold you all responsible 

Take care


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Let me just warn you guys....I'm moving house and won't have internet connection until the 5th of June
> 
> Keep this thread alive fellas
> 
> ...



This transitionary phase to weekly chapters is taking a lot longer than I had anticipated. Many of us aren't even on the same page and this thread has quieted down, I HOPE, as a result of it.


----------



## Kanki (May 15, 2014)

Moe said:


> This transitionary phase to weekly chapters is taking a lot longer than I had anticipated. Many of us aren't even on the same page and this thread has quieted down, I HOPE, as a result of it.



I leave this thread in your hands, Moe. Any success or failure will be on your back and I shall respond accordingly.

Watch out for Lazorwalrus though


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Let me just warn you guys....I'm moving house and won't have internet connection until the 5th of June
> 
> Keep this thread alive fellas
> 
> ...


We'll miss you man...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I leave this thread in your hands, Moe. Any success or failure will be on your back and I shall respond accordingly.
> 
> Watch out for Lazorwalrus though



I do. I don't trust him. I heard he's from 'Finland', ugh!


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Part 7 in 3 weeks without KIG? Yeeeaah...no. Unless Moe finally catches up with Kingdom and posts the essays he said he would.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

Good bye, Kanki.

New chapter out on mangajoy.
So i was right about the exchange. 
Though it was sorta confirmed, when I got repped with the message if I read it on mangabird.

Love the guy from the Duke troops.
 For a moment I thought nobody would even question the stupidity of Shin's plan.
Gaimou is still awesome.
Also its hard to blame the Wei guys, since it was Qin that kept attacking them.
Ten does have a lot of blood on her hands, after all.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 16, 2014)

Yep mangajoy confirmed it to.

Ten is Shin's sister.
That means Kyoukai x Shin will happen.


----------



## Katou (May 16, 2014)

Shin said:


> Yep mangajoy confirmed it to.
> 
> Ten is Shin's sister.
> That means Kyoukai x Shin will happen.




Wait waaa? 

then that means Mikasa and Levi are siblings too. .( wrong manga )


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Part 7 in 3 weeks without KIG? Yeeeaah...no. Unless Moe finally catches up with Kingdom and posts the essays he said he would.



I'll do that on my second reread or else this reread will take forever and I know you two want me to catch up as fast as I can.



Shin said:


> Yep mangajoy confirmed it to.
> 
> Ten is Shin's sister.
> That means Kyoukai x Shin will happen.



No, Shin views her as a sister. You also forget that this manga is Japanese so shit might change up in the future and Ten or Shin might develop feelings for one or the other.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Shin said that Ten is like a sister to him, not that they are actually siblings.

Anyway, now we need to know where exactly Kyoukai stands in Shin's book. Is she like a sister as well or perhaps something more? And how does Kyoukai feel about Shin, she seemed pretty miserable after Shin raged at her.

Its kinda weird how Shin really gave no thought to Kyoukai even after he got mad at her, like hes entirely focused on Ten which is understandable, but you'd think he would at least say sorry to Kyoukai.


----------



## Katou (May 16, 2014)

They already Kissed. .so Ten is one step ahead of Kyokai :ho


----------



## Typhon (May 16, 2014)

Wallachia said:


> They already Kissed. .so Ten is one step ahead of Kyokai :ho



Not just that. Shin has also groped Ten in their sleep. Ten is a few steps ahead of Kyokai. lol

Shin x Kyoukai is still gonna happen or atleast they'll have a child.


----------



## Katou (May 16, 2014)

I god fcking knew it that they were going to plan on raiding at night . .although probably not .. they'll probably go with the Prisoner Exchange




Typhon said:


> Not just that. Shin has also groped Ten in their sleep. Ten is a few steps ahead of Kyokai. lol
> 
> Shin x Kyoukai is still gonna happen or atleast they'll have a child.



at least they'll be 5 steps ahead in one try  

go Kyokai go!


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 16, 2014)

Ten bout to get that dragon dick

May the force be with you young ten


----------



## Katou (May 16, 2014)

Gaimou : Now let us start~ 
Ten : Errr~ 
*Then Suddenly . . 

* Curtain Swings open wide . . 3 men coming in 

Fodder Soldiers : General~! The Hi-Shin Unit Offer us a Equivalent Exchange!

Gaimou : Naniii!!?!?!? Can't you see I'm Horny already! Shut the Curtains !

Fodder Soldier : B-b-but! guaahh!

*Sliced his head off 

Gaimou : My Dragon Dick Fell asleep thanks to you ! Lets go!

Fodder Soldier -1 : Ouuuh!


----------



## Lezu (May 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Shin said that Ten is like a sister to him, not that they are actually siblings.
> 
> Anyway, now we need to know where exactly Kyoukai stands in Shin's book. Is she like a sister as well or perhaps something more? And how does Kyoukai feel about Shin, she seemed pretty miserable after Shin raged at her.
> 
> Its kinda weird how Shin really gave no thought to Kyoukai even after he got mad at her, like hes entirely focused on Ten which is understandable, but you'd think he would at least say sorry to Kyoukai.



Kyoukai wouldn't want to have Shin's child if she though of him as a brother, would she ?  Actually, it's a little bit hard to talk about this whole 'love' subject while those two are involved. Kyoukai was raised as an assassin since she was born, so she probably doesn't know the meaning of love. Though they do share a special bond between each other and you probably already seen that countless of times, right ?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Well, you don't exactly have to know what love is to feel it.

But I feel like this whole thing with Ten being kidnapped will be for the sake of developing the relationships between Ten, Shin and Kyoukai. 

Hara gave us a lot of panels of just Kyoukai's face and how she looked when Shin was talking about Ten, I wouldn't say she looked jealous or anything, but something was going on in her head.
Shin and Kyoukai really need to have a talk once this is all over, this whole thing could lead to Kyoukai leaving the unit to do her own thing or that Kyoukai and Shin start getting more closer to each other.


----------



## Lezu (May 16, 2014)

She was an assassin, a person who shouldn't show emotions. She got used to the idea of having comrades  and all this shit, in my opinion she has yet to understand the new feelings for her, called love.

I think this whole thing is a good opportunity for Hara to develop relationship between Ten and Kyoukai. Heck, maybe this is also a good opportunity to use Shin's instincts ? You know, if a battle breaks in before getting Ten back, Shin would need to use his whole 'instinct' thingie or just believe in Kyoukai's strategies.

She was interesting in hearing this whole thing as well. Maybe she was thinking that his answer will decide everything, does she has any chances with Shin or doesn't she because Ten is already his girlfriend. /something like that.

Somehow I think Kyoukai will leave Hi Shin Unit once this war ends. Let's pretend Qin won this battle, an award ceremony would probably be held, right ? Maybe Shin would be promoted to 5k unit commander, while Kyoukai would become 2k commander. I think her unit would be sent elsewhere if that happens.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Well Kyoukai did love her sister and her sister loved her so I'm sure she has some idea of the feelings she has towards to the people close to her. But like anything sexual she has no idea about.

Hope we get to see the instincts in action soon, Shin really needs to start showing some leadership abilities on the battlefield soon.

And yeah, I'm getting the feeling that Kyoukai might just leave the unit after this war if Shin gets promoted or even if he doesn't.
If she wants to become a great general she can't stay under Shin forever.
But then again Kyoukai did say that the Hi Shin unit is the only place she could call her home so I don't think she wants to leave them at all. She might be ordered to leave or this Ten kidnapping thing will lead into some sort of a break up between her and Shin.

I don't think things can just go back normal after what happened. Something has to change in the relationships in the unit and the way the do things as a whole.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

Wallachia said:


> They already Kissed. .so Ten is one step ahead of Kyokai :ho





Typhon said:


> Not just that. Shin has also groped Ten in their sleep. Ten is a few steps ahead of Kyokai. lol
> .




None of it matters, since Shin didn't even react to that. To him it was nothing.
So Ten is deep within the sisterzone.

But with Kyoukai he couldn't even sleep in the same tent, when he found out she was a woman.
He definitely sees her as a woman. Plus he liked the idea of having kids with her.

So for now the only possible pairing is either with Kyoukai or that girl he rescued in that city.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 16, 2014)

Maybe shin has no problems banging his sister

He was raised as a slave and an only child after all


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 16, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> None of it matters, since Shin didn't even react to that. To him it was nothing.
> So Ten is deep within the sisterzone.
> 
> But with Kyoukai he couldn't even sleep in the same tent, when he found out she was a woman.
> ...



I think he was far more interested in the method...


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

Moe said:


> I think he was far more interested in the method...




Still implies he sees her as a potential mate.
You don't do that with your sister now do you, Moe?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 16, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Still implies he sees her as a potential mate.
> You don't do that with your sister now do you, Moe?



Usually she's unconscious when I do it.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Guys....its not i*c*st unless they are related by blood ok?.

Anyway, I think there is room for their relationship to grow. Shin might grow to see Ten in a different way and we can't be too sure just what exactly does Ten feel towards Shin.

If they would just 3some it there would be no problems.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Guys....its not i*c*st unless they are related by blood ok?.
> 
> Anyway, I think there is room for their relationship to grow. Shin might grow to see Ten in a different way and we can't be too sure just what exactly does Ten feel towards Shin.
> 
> If they would just 3some it there would be no problems.



i*c*st would imply he sees her as a woman, when she is his sister.
This is the opposite. Instead of a woman, he sees a sister.

The future is in the wind, so that approach doesn't help walrus.
For all we know, she falls for Gaimou's dragon and Shin gets a brother in law.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 16, 2014)

I'm glad there are so few possible shipping pairs in Kingdom.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

Moe said:


> I'm glad there are so few possible shipping pairs in Kingdom.



Don't dare people to start thinking ones up!

In fact, we should probably stop, before a crack pairing forms or god forbid the yaoifanatics start sniffing out the potential implications.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Well at least we don't have any crazy yaoi fangirls. Kingdom has scary potential for them...

I'm not sure which one I would prefer ShinxTen or ShinxKyoukai.... 

If Shin goes with Kyoukai, Ten will end up with Mouki.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

I'm not sure about Mouki.
He seems more like a comedy relief crush. Just like hekixYotanwa


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Mouki comedic relief? Really? I never found him funny in any way. I thought he was there to help Ten and give us information about various things like the 3 great heavens.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Mouki comedic relief? Really? I never found him funny in any way. I thought he was there to help Ten and give us information about various things like the 3 great heavens.



Not in that sense.
Just his romantic advances.
Think how he was mocked by his master and imagine it as a pattern.


----------



## Sasuke (May 16, 2014)

Finally caught up. What day do new chapters get released usually?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 16, 2014)

Well the raw comes usually Saturday's at earliest, but we still don't really know when exactly will the chapters come once we are fully caught up with the raws, which should be this week or the next.

The next 2 chapters should be released this Sunday.


----------



## Typhon (May 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> If they would just 3some it there would be no problems.



Yes! This is the time where a man can multiple wives after all. It's funny though. I actually think both Ten and Kyoukai are giving up on being with Shin because one sees Shin getting with the other.


----------



## Zeno (May 16, 2014)

I can finally start lurking this thread.


While I'm here, does anyone find the Wei Fire Dragons a bit of a deus ex machina?


----------



## Butcher (May 16, 2014)

On chapter 192 brothas. REALLY liking this manga now during and after the Zhao war.

Though I really want to get back to Sei's political story . It was so good.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 17, 2014)

Kingdom 388

3


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

Kil'jaeden said:


> I can finally start lurking this thread.
> 
> 
> While I'm here, does anyone find the Wei Fire Dragons a bit of a deus ex machina?



Hmm, well yeah they kind of came out of nowhere, but at the same time it was quite predictable that Hara would introduce characters like this to make the other states more of a threat than they were. And he did give at least an acceptable explanation of them and why they weren't too well known these days.

Well, I think its a pretty good thing regardless, the other states need characters like these so they wont just be stomped a few chapters after the war starts.


----------



## Zeno (May 17, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Hmm, well yeah they kind of came out of nowhere, but at the same time it was quite predictable that Hara would introduce characters like this to make the other states more of a threat than they were. And he did give at least an acceptable explanation of them and why they weren't too well known these days.
> 
> Well, I think its a pretty good thing regardless, the other states need characters like these so they wont just be stomped a few chapters after the war starts.



I don't know it feels like the whole bankai thing all over again. Qin has these unique generals who everyone feared and respected and- oh wait, Zhao has some of those, and now Wei, and probably Chu and Yan.

Sorry for the nitpickyness.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

Well all of the Zhao and Qin guys were famous generals in history so they kind of had to be in the story.

It kind of makes sense that  the states had their own great generals, I mean if Qin had 6, their neighbor states naturally had their own guys so they weren't completely wiped out before the story of Kingdom even started.

There has been constant wars for the past 500 years at least, there are generals from every generation so you really should expect for there to be older and younger generals in each state.
Doubt Hara will create any more of these groups tho, it would get a bit too repetitive if every single state had their own generals group. 

Anyway, this kind of stuff happens in so many series, that I don't really pay attention to it at all.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well all of the Zhao and Qin guys were famous generals in history so they kind of had to be in the story.
> 
> It kind of makes sense that  the states had their own great generals, I mean if Qin had 6, their neighbor states naturally had their own guys so they weren't completely wiped out before the story of Kingdom even started.
> 
> ...



What do you mean? It will happen... it has to considering there are no reputable Generals for Han and Yan (lel @ Ordo).


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

I mean that there will of course be a bunch of new characters introduced in the other states as we go forward, but I doubt Hara would create any more groups like the Wei fire dragons or such.

If such groups existed we should of heard about them by now.

Anyway, we know that Yan at least had Gekishin and Gakuki in the past and now they got....Ordo (lol), there will be at least a few generals in Yan that we do not know about yet and so will in the other states as well.
I doubt that Wei will get anymore generals tho.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Edward Newgate said:


> Kingdom 388
> 
> 3



Is this in Chinese or Japanese?


I hope TF catches up by tomorrow.



> Release Status
> These are best-case estimates.
> 
> Thursday 15 May - c385
> ...


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 17, 2014)

There will probably be new groups of generals, that  gained their fame over the timeskips.
It wouldn't make sense otherwise. After all, Shin will need worthy opponents to keep the tension going.


----------



## maupp (May 17, 2014)

Well seems like Ten has been sister zoned. The Shin x Ten ship has sunk. Now we can all stick to Shin x Kyouka, after all they still haven't had that baby .


----------



## maupp (May 17, 2014)

By the way was I the only one who didn't like Gaimou spanking of Shin . I know Hara wanted to crush Shin and show a moment of humiliation but he went overboard with their duel. I'm all for Gaimou owning Shin but not in that maner. I thought we were past the point where Shin could just be sent flying like some fodder. 

I mean he held his own against beast of opponents and with the TS boost he shouldn't be getting thrown around like some rag doll. It felt like Houken sending 14 or 15 year old shin flying(the first time they fought). Shin at this level shouldn't be overpowered to the point he get sent flying off his horse and to the crowd like his 14 year old self. Owning him was fine by me but fodderizing him annoyed me a bit. 

I wish Hara could have handled that exchange a lot differently but that's that. Though I wonder if I was the only one a bit bothered by that.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

What? Shin did quite well considering this guy is probably around Renpa's level of strength.
Obviously he wasn't going to win, but Shin didn't do that bad. Imagine Shin fighting Renpa like that and it makes his performance look a lot more impressive.

Shin isn't there yet, hes not in his prime. Give him a few more years to get to his physical prime and learn the glaive properly and he will win.


----------



## Freechoice (May 17, 2014)

You actually haven't read the first arcs of the manga? Only seen the anime? The fuck? Did you at least read the parts that the anime skipped? Did you even read the Zhao war in the manga? If you haven't, you have missed out on a lot all this time.

Rereading is pretty important imo, in a manga like Kingdom especially where there are a bunch of little things that you might miss if you only read it once.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

What said:


> You actually haven't read the first arcs of the manga? Only seen the anime? The fuck? Did you at least read the parts that the anime skipped? Did you even read the Zhao war in the manga? If you haven't, you have missed out on a lot all this time.
> 
> Rereading is pretty important imo, in a manga like Kingdom especially where there are a bunch of little things that you might miss if you only read it once.



Are you talkin' to me?


----------



## Freechoice (May 17, 2014)

I'm talking about you.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

I think I said that same exact thing....like 10 pages back? Kinda confused over that post.


----------



## Freechoice (May 17, 2014)

I said that same exact thing about 15 or so pages back lol


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

What said:


> I'm talking about you.



My plan, originally, was to reread everything once TF caught up (and summer came along).



lazorwalrus said:


> I think I said that same exact thing....like 10 pages back? Kinda confused over that post.



Same.


----------



## maupp (May 17, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> What? Shin did quite well considering this guy is probably around Renpa's level of strength.
> Obviously he wasn't going to win, but Shin didn't do that bad. Imagine Shin fighting Renpa like that and it makes his performance look a lot more impressive.
> 
> Shin isn't there yet, hes not in his prime. Give him a few more years to get to his physical prime and learn the glaive properly and he will win.


No Shin did poorly. In fact he was beyond pathetic in his display. Shin with a torn body and exhausted managed to push fecking Houken a bit. Granted Houken was only using one hand but Shin was extremely exhausted and was almost fighting on will power alone. 

Now a time skip after such feat and Shin get sent flying in the crowd off his horse . Houken is like THE ultimate beast in Kingdom and an exhausted Shin did a lot better than a fresh TS Shin did against Gaimou, that part was ridiculous to me. 

As I said owning Shin wasn't an issue for me, after all we stronger and stronger opponent but him getting sent flying like the way Houken did to a 14 year old Shin is downright ridiculous.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

The difference was that after this time when Shin got blown away, he was hardly even hurt. He got back up instantly and managed to push Gaimou to some extent. First time Houken knocked him out for like 10mins and the second time Houken broke his ribs and Shin had hard time getting up. 
The next step is for him not being blown away like that.

He was physically weaker and that led to him being blown away, but overall he didn't do that bad.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

Shin doing what he did was just plot and for the most part should be ignored.

If Shin and Houken fought right now houken would spank his ass.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

@maupp & Doflamingo - Have you forgotten about Shin's weight (the weight he holds against Houken)?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

You mean the Power of Feelings yea natsu reminds of that every week I recall it well.

Shin should not of been standing up let alone fighting one of the strongest dudes in the manga and significantly hurting him. Regardless of his weight Plot is plot. Imagine a heavily injured Zoro who has been fighting for days, duking it out with shanks and almost plunging a sword through his back. So yea plot.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> You mean the Power of Feelings yea natsu reminds of that every week I recall it well.
> 
> Shin should not of been standing up let alone fighting one of the strongest dudes in the manga and significantly hurting him. Regardless of his weight Plot is plot. Imagine a heavily injured Zoro who has been fighting for days, duking it out with shanks and almost plunging a sword through his back. So yea plot.



You clearly do not understand the meaning of weight if you make such remarks (I hope it was just a joke...).

Oh, I actually agree with you on that. I wrote many posts about that. But Shin will never get spanked. He'll always push Houken because of the weight he holds against him. I disagreed with the amount of damage Shin managed to dish out on Houken AND the fact he was about to repel Houken's glaive with just his sword. Shin, without the weight he holds on Houken, would have lost a lot faster and harder.


----------



## maupp (May 17, 2014)

@DD: Shin did get stronger and Hara had that all fight set up. Houken was handicapped since he couldn't used one hand and Shin did get really stronger(yes some plot power kicked in too but his performance was understandable). Shin fought countless battle and was able to take on the likes of Gin(I mean Rinko ) and blocked Renpai strike while extremely exhausted. He grew to the point where he could take advantage of an handicapped Houken and look good after taking him on. Which is why the fight with Gaimou pisses me off because it put Shin several steps back. 

@Walrus: that sending Shin flying moment, that's what get into me. Shin at this point shouldn't be sent flying in the crowd even if he didn't eat dirt for 10 after being sent flying. After all he showed before the TS, it's hard to accept that he is back to being sent flying like his 14 year old self.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

Moe said:


> You clearly do not understand the meaning of weight if you make such remarks (I hope it was just a joke...).
> 
> Oh, I actually agree with you on that. I wrote many posts about that. But Shin will never get spanked. He'll always push Houken because of the weight he holds against him. I disagreed with the amount of damage Shin managed to dish out on Houken AND the fact he was about to repel Houken's glaive with just his sword. Shin, without the weight he holds on Houken, would have lost a lot faster and harder.



Weight is basicailly Power of feelings just better executed then fairy fail. Main difference being save for certain individuals its a constant thing shins weight is of course constantly increaseing just gets a extra boost agasint houken.

But i never said weight was because of plot, weight to be clear as far as im concerned is irrelevant thats not what i got a problem with. Shin should of got the living shit beat out of him in his condition even if Houken just cut tens head off in front of him. When I say beat the shit out of him I mean houken should of two shot him at best and never got a scratch on him.

Regardless of anyones feelings on weight\plot using shins feats against houken in that situation and extrapolating things from it is a awful idea. That will just cause problems.


----------



## maupp (May 17, 2014)

^Now you just downright exaggerating. You can only 2 shot a fodder and Shin wasn't one regardless of him being fresh or exhausted .


----------



## maupp (May 17, 2014)

^That's why the Gaimou fight was ridiculous. He shouldn't be able to send Shin flying after all the feats he displayed pre skip. Shin performance against Houken has a semblance of backing because it was consistent with how Shin was growing stronger throughout the story up to that point. 

Shin didn't just suddenly strong enough to give an handicapped Houken some trouble. His strength was built over time and him getting to the point he could give an handicapped Houken something to think about was logical. 

Shin growth was showm from fighting Mangolu, Rinko and being able to defeat him. Blocking Renpai strong strike with an exhausted body and so forth. Shin was growing in power, he was climbing up level after level. He even had that monologue while fighting Rinko about a warrior surpassing his limit and such. From there Hara kept Shin growth even more consistent and he could even bloke a strike from a Great general like Renpai with his body torn to shred. 

If you look carefully at how he grew, you'd understand his performance against Houken. His sudden growth didn't come out of nowhere but instead was built throughout many arc. 

What is random and BS like is a TS Shin getting sent flying like nothing . It just came out of nowhere. Completely erase Shin growth throughout pre skip. Shin suddenly becoming so weak that even his pre skip version looks far far better and stronger than the current one is a joke. Which is why the whole confrontation with Gaimou is utter bullshit to me. I'm fine with Shin getting owned, but being send flying, Jesus wept . 

Oh well it's done.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Weight is basicailly Power of feelings just better executed then fairy fail. Main difference being save for certain individuals its a constant thing shins weight is of course constantly increaseing just gets a extra boost agasint houken.



Oh, man, you've got it so wrong


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

Pre skip Shin would of passed out from Gaimou's blow and been sent flying to the distance.

He has gotten stronger and more durable as he wasn't really even fazed after the whole thing.
Next step will be actually not being blown away and then finally comes the time when he blows people away.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

maupp said:


> ^That's why the Gaimou fight was ridiculous. He shouldn't be able to send Shin flying after all the feats he displayed pre skip. Shin performance against Houken has a semblance of backing because it was consistent with how Shin was growing stronger throughout the story up to that point.
> 
> Shin didn't just suddenly strong enough to give an handicapped Houken some trouble. His strength was built over time and him getting to the point he could give an handicapped Houken something to think about was logical.



Well we will have to agree to disagrree cause as you know at this point I find shins performance agasint Houken ubsurd.



> Shin growth was showm from fighting Mangolu, Rinko and being able to defeat him. Blocking Renpai strong strike with an exhausted body and so forth. Shin was growing in power, he was climbing up level after level. He even had that monologue while fighting Rinko about a warrior surpassing his limit and such. From there Hara kept Shin growth even more consistent and he could even bloke a strike from a Great general like Renpai with his body torn to shred.



Yes shin has grown but not that much. Even then I dont think you understand how strong houken is he is basically the prime roger of this manga. Do you recall Geshiki he was a very famous, experienced General who was not only hyped for his tactics that he copied but his strength....Houken one shot his ass with utmost ease.

Also renpa is just plot bro. Can a half dead Zoro block a full force swing from Mihawk? I dont think so not without plot shield anyway.



> if you look carefully at how he grew, you'd understand his performance against Houken. His sudden growth didn't come out of nowhere but instead was built throughout many arc.



Even if I agreed with you on shins growth it does not change the fact shin should of been in no condition to fight mangoku let alone Houken. Even with weight factored in shin should of been having a hard time swinging his blade let alone blocking swings from a man who can cut down giant trees.



> What is random and BS like is a TS Shin getting sent flying like nothing . It just came out of nowhere. Completely erase Shin growth throughout pre skip. Shin suddenly becoming so weak that even his pre skip version looks far far better and stronger than the current one is a joke. Which is why the whole confrontation with Gaimou is utter bullshit to me. I'm fine with Shin getting owned, but being send flying, Jesus wept .
> 
> Oh well it's done.



I agree that shin being sent flying was to much but lets take that away shall we.

We still have shin being significantly overpowered by Gaimou and when it was all said and done shin was close to defeated and Gaimou still looked in top condition.  So based on that hara seems to be portraying gaimou can defeat shin with like mid or lower end high diff. Which would mean Pre-skip Shin would get his ass beat low diff by gaimou if even that.

So again the main factor here imo is shins state of body in that state he should most definitely of been weaker then mangoku and most assuredly Gishiki both of whom houken can one shot with one arm. But ok lets say im underestimating shins weight vs houken. Him fighting on equal grounds is one thing but shin gave him a few good wounds to say the least.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 17, 2014)

Why should Shin have been weaker than Mangoku? Mangoku was never portrayed as a strong fighter and Shin is pretty much a natural genius when it comes to fighting with immense potential to reach Ouki like strength.

Shin beating Mangoku after he already managed to beat Rinko was pretty damn expected.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 17, 2014)

True.

Rinko was a badass, that needed to be heavily nerfed and Shin still only won, because Sosui distracted him.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

Moe said:


> Oh, man, you've got it so wrong



I think Ouki explains what weight is quite clearly and based off the manga I have read it is very simliar to power of feelings to which every manga has their own version for the most part. Although in the case of fairy tail it is literally called power of feelings(which i find hilarious ftw).

Anyway we shall agree to disagree as I already mentioned weight is irrelevant to my feelings on the houken vs shin matter.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Why should Shin have been weaker than Mangoku? Mangoku was never portrayed as a strong fighter and Shin is pretty much a natural genius when it comes to fighting with immense potential to reach Ouki like strength.
> 
> Shin beating Mangoku after he already managed to beat Rinko was pretty damn expected.



I agree. 

I was referring to shin as he was in his fight with houken the one that was fighting for 7 days nonstop and suffered many wounds along the way. That shin had no business fighting that retard from kankis squad let alone the Big man in charge houken was my point.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I think Ouki explains what weight is quite clearly and based off the manga I have read it is very simliar to power of feelings to which every manga has their own version for the most part. Although in the case of fairy tail it is literally called power of feelings(which i find hilarious ftw).
> 
> Anyway we shall agree to disagree as I already mentioned weight is irrelevant to my feelings on the houken vs shin matter.



Sorry, I was trying to find some of the discussions we've had on weight to give you an idea of what I and some others thought weight was. I think we have like two factions here.

How is weight irrelevant to your feelings on the HoukenxShin matter? It justifies, to a degree, what happened to that fight, but as I've said before, I didn't agree then, nor not now, with how much damage Shin managed to do to Houken.

I started to explain why I think otherwise, but then I remembered presenting the same arguments to when some of the other posters here said that they believed 'weight' was more of a 'motivator', as in their feelings gave them strength, which is basically power of feelings. When you said FT, it just completely threw me off considering FT's POF was the most unquantifiable, abstract, irrational, illogical, random concept/power-up I've ever encountered.

I still have a different definition of what weight is, but yea, we can agree to disagree.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

When I say irrelevant I dont mean weight was not a factor in the encounter. I mean it has no bearing in my feelings on that matter. The core issue I have is shins injurys which imo if not for plot would of been him incabale of fighting a top tier opponent even with weight boost. 

I understand and accept fully that shin has a lot of weight against houken, but that to me is no where near good enough. I would be fine if he was fighting someone on Kyoukais level at the time or perhaps a step above but not houken. Shin was way to injured for that which of course you agree to a certain extent.

Weight imo is not a good enough excuse hence I think Plot played a factor in allowing shin to use his weight enhanced strength in the first place. Now if shin was 100 percent I would be pretty much ok with that fight but of course thats not the case.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> When I say irrelevant I dont mean weight was not a factor in the encounter. I mean it has no bearing in my feelings on that matter.



Ohh, ok.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I understand and accept fully that shin has a lot of weight against houken, but that to me is no where near good enough. I would be fine if he was fighting someone on Kyoukais level at the time or perhaps a step above but not houken. Shin was way to injured for that which of course you agree to a certain extent.
> 
> Weight imo is not a good enough excuse hence I think Plot played a factor in allowing shin to use his weight enhanced strength in the first place.



Yea, I've said the exact same thing before. We are in full agreement here.


----------



## Zeno (May 17, 2014)

Hara went to great lengths to explain why generals who experienced the burden of warfare extensively have a power that certain fucksticks who cut trees down in the woods will never have.


----------



## Coruscation (May 17, 2014)

re: Shin getting sent flying by Gaimou - why is this so controversial? Even in duels between Great Generals we've seen them send each other reeling with powerful blows. Duke Hyou did it to Houken, as well as vice versa, and IIRC it happened between Ouki and Houken as well. If that can happen you can be damn sure someone like Shin can get sent flying to an even greater extent by an implied Renpa class monster. If that's a problem there should have been a topic-wide uproar when Ouhon knocked back Shin's swing with one hand. I for one was astounded at how well Shin did against Gaimou considering the difference in stature between them. Even his own soldiers thought no one had managed to fight so well against Gaimou before.

As for vs Houken, you have to think Houken underestimated Shin. It's been said that Houken never starts out a fight using his full power and in that case he had double the reason not to from his own PoV. If the fight had continued Shin would have been wrecked in short order with Houken fully taking him seriously. And yeah, sure, Kingdom has resolve induced strength for its MC like most manga. Being able to pull out a few last full power blows even when nearly fainting is just a protagonist's prerogative.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

^^Yea I know thay kilj but not having Renpa level weight\means to get to that level, and having virtually little to no weight at all are two massively different things.

Unless I have gotten the wrong impression and Houken does have a decent amount of weight. I did speed read kingdom so I could of missed it lol.


----------



## Zeno (May 17, 2014)

Sorry I'm not sure what you're talking about. I was responding to your FT comparison. I probably should've made that clear.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

Oh ok.

Im just expressing my distaste for how hara portrays houken as a man with little to no weight. I think thats being a little unreasonable he should have a decent amount of weight. I mean him having no weight is pretty much the equivalent of your shit in the eyes of the big boys in this manga, and although I have no love for houken thethings he has done in his life and went through should amount to more then shit, him walking his own path should amount to something even if its small compared to someone like renpa.

Just my random thoughts lol


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

Is the Author of kingdom a female or male im not confident as i never looked it up myself i believe I read someone state as much, and I dont bother questioning those type of things lo

Anyway I agree with you 100 percent which is why im not stating houken has a lot of weight or anything the manga makes it clear he does not and for the reasons you laid out quite nicely ftw.

This is just purely my personal feelings on the matter its not my manga the author sets up things how he\she wants.

You are correct houken fights for himself\trains for himself\and has fought for himself. The thing is I think that should amount to something(not a whole lot but something). Houken having pride in his hard work and the many opponents he has overcome, his drive to become the best ect I think should amount to something but of course the author disagrees. But houken is a bitch  so its not a big deal to me its just something I dont fully agree with.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Hara is all about friends/comrades/brothers-in-arms.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 17, 2014)

As long as Hara does not use that friendship to power a defensive shield where time stands still for 7 years for no given reason then im good.

That actually happend in fairy tail if your lucky enough to have not read that far.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 17, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> As long as Hara does not use that friendship to power a defensive shield where time stands still for 7 years for no given reason then im good.
> 
> That actually happend in fairy tail if your lucky enough to have not read that far.



Unfortunately, I've been with FT from very early on.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Coruscation: Houken, nor Duke or any other general never been sent flying off theri horses and to the crowd, never. What happened between them is that the horses get push back and such which makes sense given it's all on the horses strength. 

Even in the Duke fight against that strategist general he first fought(forgot his name), the guy was never sent flying into the crowd and the difference between Duke and the dud was immense. Duke was casually owning that guy but he was never sent flying into the crowd off his horse. We hust had the typical horse being pushed back. 

In Shin's case he flew off his horse like and off to the crowd like a fodder aka 14 year old Shin vs Houken style. 

And the Ouhon thing was another ridiculous thing after the TS. Thanks for reminding me about that. I was going to point out that part. Since the TS Shin performance have been rather lame. I mean Ouhon overpowered him, come on now . I rather forgot that exchange than remember. Hara seem to like putting down Shin for Ouhon sakes sometimes. Ouhen with enough strength to overpower Shin just doesn't look right at all. 

And on the weight thing. Like "DD", it's basically PoF in some way. Every manga call them differently. 
In Bleach they call it Resolve, in FT it's called PoF, in Kingdom it's called weight. I don't remember OP using feelings powers(that really isn't Oda style, people have to win legit). Or maybe in the future when CoC comes into play much we'll have spirit come into play a lot and it'll be some sort of weight, resolve, PoF and such. 

And Naruto don't use PoF much. I can't remember when to be honest. They usually wins via legit techniques and strategies. Though Kishi asspull a lot.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

Oh just remembered Sasuke power of Hatred that helped him bust full Susanoo and rid himself of Danzou seal . 

Now that I think about it, Uchiha are walking power of feelings. The more butthurt and emo they are, the more powerful they get with new OP eyes techniques. Yet Kishi aslo has PoF .


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (May 18, 2014)

People need to take notice that Shin changed his weapon. He was training in using a sword since he was a kid and he's been fighting with a glaive for what? a year or two?

He only is getting used to using his glaive. People should find it impressive that he even  exchanged blows with a guy like Gaimou and did not die.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

The funny thing is that Hara is now busy portraying Gaimou as some sort of Renpai tiered opponent, yet he's gonna have Shin defeat him in this very same arc. How is that for weight(PoF)power .


----------



## Lezu (May 18, 2014)

maupp said:


> @Coruscation: Houken, nor Duke or any other general never been sent flying off theri horses and to the crowd, never. What happened between them is that the horses get push back and such which makes sense given it's all on the horses strength.
> 
> Even in the Duke fight against that strategist general he first fought(forgot his name), the guy was never sent flying into the crowd and the difference between Duke and the dud was immense. Duke was casually owning that guy but he was never sent flying into the crowd off his horse. We hust had the typical horse being pushed back.
> 
> ...



Jesus Christ... Have you actually seen Ouki/Duke/or whatever fighting generals of this level when they were the same age as Shin ? You only seen them fighting in their prime and when they have gathered shitloads of fighting experience. Shin still has a long way to go, otherwise he would already be a general, wouldn't he ? You're talking like Shin is the strongest person in the whole manga and can't be beaten by an experienced general who was avoided by the likes of Renpa. Heck, don't forget that Shin is still novice in wielding a glaive.

You're just a typical shounen reader, who hates if the main guy looses to someone else. Ouhon is still stronger than Shin, don't forget that Ouhon has been training since he was only a little kid (and possibly had a lot of good teachers), while Shin was sparring only with his friend for so many years. 

One Piece has the power of friendship. Power of friendship and talk no jutsu is the main engine in Naruto. I have no idea what were you reading if you haven't seen such a thing in both, One Piece and Naruto.


----------



## Coruscation (May 18, 2014)

> Houken, nor Duke or any other general never been sent flying off theri horses and to the crowd, never.


 
And Shin isn't Houken, Duke or Ouki. The argument made was that if even they can be sent reeling, Shin getting sent off his horse makes perfect sense because Shin's a lot weaker than them. But why are you focusing only on that scene? Doesn't the entire rest of the fight where he actually bloodied Gaimou, greatly impressed the man himself and had his subordinates comment that they've never seen anyone stand up to him that way mean anything to you? The fact that he could clash the way he did at all with an implied Renpa-tier opponent at his age and level of experience is almost unbelievably impressive.

While Hara does make Shin ostensibly look bad sometimes to hype up other parties, I personally find him an author that treats his main character with great respect. I don't recall a single time Shin has failed when it truly mattered, cases aside where he was meant to have no chance in the first place such as the 1st meeting Houken. He's also explained it _explicitly_ to the reader over the series why this is. We have, at least, the concepts of weight; that all people are able to become that stronger the stronger their opponent is, but some read Shin exceptionally so; and that an important reason that people like Ouki are so strong is that they've been through countless battles where they have been able to evolve and improve themselves in mid-combat. For a series like One Piece these things are at best implied and the reader has to headcanon them as the reason Luffy sometimes looks like shit and seems to jump wildly in power. It may stretch their magnitude a little bit every now and then, but Kingdom makes sure to elegantly explain them. Hara should be commended for that.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 18, 2014)

Turnipfarmers versions of 386 and 387 are out, aka the last release with multiple chapters. We are pretty much caught up now, 1 chapter per week from here on out. this


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> And Shin isn't Houken, Duke or Ouki. The argument made was that if even they can be sent reeling, Shin getting sent off his horse makes perfect sense because Shin's a lot weaker than them. But why are you focusing only on that scene? Doesn't the entire rest of the fight where he actually bloodied Gaimou, greatly impressed the man himself and had his subordinates comment that they've never seen anyone stand up to him that way mean anything to you? The fact that he could clash the way he did at all with an implied Renpa-tier opponent at his age and level of experience is almost unbelievably impressive.
> 
> While Hara does make Shin ostensibly look bad sometimes to hype up other parties, I personally find him an author that treats his main character with great respect. I don't recall a single time Shin has failed when it truly mattered, cases aside where he was meant to have no chance in the first place such as the 1st meeting Houken. He's also explained it _explicitly_ to the reader over the series why this is. We have, at least, the concepts of weight; that all people are able to become that stronger the stronger their opponent is, but some read Shin exceptionally so; and that an important reason that people like Ouki are so strong is that they've been through countless battles where they have been able to evolve and improve themselves in mid-combat. For a series like One Piece these things are at best implied and the reader has to headcanon them as the reason Luffy sometimes looks like shit and seems to jump wildly in power. It may stretch their magnitude a little bit every now and then, but Kingdom makes sure to elegantly explain them. Hara should be commended for that.


Ok first of all, don't get me wrong. I'm one of the many who've commanded Hara for what he does with the manga and I personally believe Kingdom is one of the best manga currently. Both in story, characters and such. And very few match these qualities. So this isn't about not commanding what Hara has done with Kingdom, I love it the way it is. 

Though despite being one of the best doesn't mean there aren't those rare moments in the manga that irk me a bit and don't like much. 

And the reason I brought Duke, Ouken and all those is because you brought them into the conversation and tried to use them to support your point which was about being sent flying off their Horses. And I replied saying they've never been sent flying off horses. So it was never about Shin being them or not. 

And my point was that at this point in the game Shin shouldn't have been sent flying off the horse like a non factor opponent. Sure Shin came back into the game and did decently but that sending off horse moment was ridiculous already. 

And one of the reason I brought the Duke vs the strategist general as an example is that Hara actually portrayed Duke far far above the guy. Duke literally fodderized him, the difference between Duke and him was even bigger than how Gaimou and Shin later got portrayed(after that ridiculous throw) yet the guy was never sent flying off his horse. 

I don't have any problem with Shin being beaten by Gaimou, and in fact he later did better. But the trowing off horse into the crowd moment left me wondering. 

And don't worry I know all about weight in Kingdom. 

@Lazio or whatever your name mate: Just feck off withyour childlike accusations and pretending to be some elitist. Don't bother replying to people if you're only gonna spout a bunch of nonsense about them instead of addressing the post in question .


----------



## Coruscation (May 18, 2014)

> And the reason I brought Duke, Ouken and all those is because you brought them into the conversation and tried to use them to support your point which was about being sent flying off their Horses. And I replied saying they've never been sent flying off horses. So it was never about Shin being them or not.



You're missing the point of me bringing them up. Shin is still weaker than those guys. If even they can be sent flying given the right circumstances, what is wrong with Shin being sent off his horse? It seems to be something you've decided arbitrarily. I never thought twice of it. They clashed with full power with neither intending to give and since Gaimou's ultimately a lot stronger than Shin, the result was Shin being sent flying. I just don't really see what's wrong with Gaimou being so strong and having so much weight that Shin is unable to stay on his horse if he tries to meet him in a direct full power clash.



> Duke literally fodderized him, the difference between Duke and him was even bigger than how Gaimou and Shin later got portrayed(after that ridiculous throw) yet the guy was never sent flying off his horse.



But how can you be so sure that Duke Hyou couldn't have sent him off his horse if he wanted to? You remember that Duke Hyou was holding back for most of that fight, right? He wanted to understand Gokei by clashing with him. He held back to let Gokei attack him with all he had. Once that was all done, he ended it the moment he wanted to end it. The circumstances of the duel at that time were altogether different from Shin vs Gaimou.


----------



## Zeit (May 18, 2014)

Grumpy Zoro said:


> People need to take notice that Shin changed his weapon. He was training in using a sword since he was a kid and he's been fighting with a glaive for what? a year or two?
> 
> He only is getting used to using his glaive. People should find it impressive that he even  exchanged blows with a guy like Gaimou and did not die.



Indeed, in as much Gaimou compliments Shin's skill with the glaive he also specifically highlights the fact Shin isn't a veteran with the weapon yet as he was with his sword. Add in that he was on horseback as opposed to on foot where he is shown to be more comfortable duelling equal or stronger opponents, and the difference in size not only between Shin and Gaimou but their horses and him getting knocked off isn't that big a demerit for Shin.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

Just finished reading 377 on MF. And this chapter really had me on the edge. Hara almost made me eat my nails while reading that exchange. For a moment I thought Gaimou was going to pull something out and attack the HSU. That exchange was tense. 

And it seems the whole Ten plot has been solved pretty quickly. And it seems like Hara created this mini Ten plot in order to explore both characters(Shin and Ten( and how they stand, means to, for each other. 

And it looks like the Shin x Ten ship hasn't completely sunk, Ten revived it and it finally confirmed that she loves Shin and want to achieve happiness together with Shin. Next on the list should be Kyoukai, we need to know her feelings as well . 

And finally Ouhen vs Shihaku is around the corner. I wonder if Ouhon will get the Shin treatment and get owned. Though he kind of deserve a bit of owning for that ego to get bumped a bit. 

And Gaimou was again badass in this chapter. Dude own people left and right then has his women to pleasure him. You can't beat that as a cool life on the battlefield. He get to taste both the thrill and adrenaline of fighting in the war and pleasure +exitement by banging his chicks. Dude has everything set .


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 18, 2014)

Don't forget Kyoukai, these chapters were also about her. Her face when Shin mentions that Ten is like her one and ONLY sister was surprising, oh man I wonder how did she take that.

And she looked pretty damn miserable even when Ten got back safe thanks to her. Something will have to happen between Shin and Kyoukai now.


----------



## Hibari Kyoya (May 18, 2014)

If Tou dies, I will quit this manga...


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Walrus: yeah it's was about Kyoukai too. Hara has been close capturing her face whenever something involving Shin thought of Ten were involved. Like you said we had that Sister comment and this chapter she looked intensely when Shin grabbed Ten hand. There is definitely something there. 

Though she should be happy Shin mentioned Ten as sister material, that means Ten has been sister zoned and now she has much better odds to have that baby with Shin .


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 18, 2014)

She looked like she was surprised and doesn't understand just what exactly does Shin think about her.

This can lead to 2 things, either Kyoukai will leave the unit or Kyoukai x Shin might become true.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Hibari kyoya: prepare yourself, Kingdom is the Game of Thrones of mangas .  Favorite characters dies left and right. I'm still crying about Ned Stark death just as much as I'm still crying about Duke and Ouki's death, shit happens .


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 18, 2014)

Read the latest chapter. For some reason I really like how Gaimou interacts with his lieutenant, especially when he got him back from the hostage exchange.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Walrus: I doubt Kyouka is leaving the Unit anytime soon. She'll eventually leave since she has her own dream now but not for a long time. Things will develop between them(Shin and Kyouka) first. I don't see Hara making Kyouka leave now after all that speech about her only home to return being the HSU. 

Those thoughts are still pretty much fresh in readers mind, don't see why Hara would suddenly separate her from the HSU. They'll probably separate when they become General or close to it. I'm sure Hara will somehow still keep their respective Unit together for a long time.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 18, 2014)

Gaimou is awesome. 
He also made Ten sound really pathetic with her goals.

There was no tension in the exchange for me, since Gaimou was presented as a pretty straightforward guy.


----------



## Magic (May 18, 2014)

So will Ten lose her chasity?


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Clandestine: The tension came from the fact that we didn't know whether Ten had pissed him off or not(given him a solid answer). And not to mention everyone was questioning and thinking that the whole thing was too easy. I thought Hara was going to do something and have Gaimou men betray Shin and start a fight. 

And I personally didn't find Ten goal pathetic. Thinking about it, Ten has always been mostly alone and met Shin and Sei. After the event that happen next she started leaving with Shin and she was pretty much set. Her life became much better than her previous one where she had to hustle a lot to get by day by day. Now she had a home together with Shin. 

Initially she went into strategy to not be a burden to Shin and make a life for herself which is what she basically told Gaimou. She wants happiness together with Shin since for her the semblance of an ideal life she had was with Shin in that small hut. And of course there is also the reason that she loves Shin too. 

So naturally she want to help Shin in his goal and also want to make a life of herself in the battlefield. Not really pathetic if you think where Ten is coming from and how Shin impacted her and her life.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 18, 2014)

RemChu said:


> So will Ten lose her chasity?



Gaimou already took it.
He just made Ten willing, so Shin couldn't tell.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 18, 2014)

I liked how Gaimou felt like a grown up talking to a child. Even though Gaimou might be dumber than Ten is his experience puts him above her in the conversation they had.

Now we will see Shihaku next, I'm really looking towards to seeing him fighting against Ouhon.
If Shihaku is around the same tier as Gaimou is, we should be in for a good fight.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

Nah Gaimou didn't touch her. Had he done so, she'd have been ripped apart. I don't think she is at that stage where she can handle Gaimou D . She has to start low tier first, maybe Shin to ease her in the game .


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Walrus: If Shihaku is anywhere around Gaimou level then Ouhon should eat dirt too. Beside Ouhon need a beating for that ego of his to take a bit of a dive.


----------



## Sasuke (May 18, 2014)

This man. I like him.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

No, Ouhon's ego reflects his skill. In a 1 on 1, 5k battle, Ouhon would COMPLETELY floor the current Shin and that is the truth. It is time for Hara to fully awaken Shin's instinctive abilities.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 18, 2014)

maupp said:


> @Clandestine: The tension came from the fact that we didn't know whether Ten had pissed him off or not(given him a solid answer). And not to mention everyone was questioning and thinking that the whole thing was too easy. I thought Hara was going to do something and have Gaimou men betray Shin and start a fight.
> 
> And I personally didn't find Ten goal pathetic. Thinking about it, Ten has always been mostly alone and met Shin and Sei. After the event that happen next she started leaving with Shin and she was pretty much set. Her life became much better than her previous one where she had to hustle a lot to get by day by day. Now she had a home together with Shin.
> 
> ...




Nah, Ten had strong plot armor and Hara was making Gaimou far too likable to have him kill Ten off the battlefield.

Sure Shin means a lot to her, but the goal is still making Shin happy. Which is the generic desire to live for her man and being happy for it .
The way she chose to put it into practice and all is badass, but the motivation is pretty shitty.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Clandestine: Well of course we all knew Ten was never going to die. 

And her goal isn't much of a problem. You have to remember her goal is just as much to help Shin get his dream realized as herself making a life for herself in the battlefield. I don't know why you're omitting that part. She said it pretty clearly in this chapter when Gaimou told her her goal was the typical Girl doing everything for the guy they love. 

Her trying to help Shin get his goal is understandable given what Shin done for her and her being in love with him. And she also aims on finding her feets on the battlefield and define a life of her own. Basically her dream is also to make it in the battlefield. Pretty good ambition and dream if you ask me. 

But I guess this is all a matter of opinions and how we each view things. I personally don't find her goal pathetic. Beside what's wrong with someone helping the person they love.


----------



## Hamtaro (May 18, 2014)

Moe said:


> No, Ouhon's ego reflects his skill. In a 1 on 1, 5k battle, Ouhon would COMPLETELY floor the current Shin and that is the truth. It is time for Hara to fully awaken Shin's instinctive abilities.



Even though Ouhon could beat the Hi Shin unit, I think he is undercutting their ability. Shin is more capable than he gives him credit for.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

I didn't like Ten's reasoning. I was hoping for some epic mini-speech that reflected her resolve. 

The second part I didn't mind, that she sought for her own happiness, but not through love... I didn't think she actually loved Shin that much.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 18, 2014)

We need more love in Kingdom, I wonder how far will Hara take the possible romance between the characters.

I actually don't really care if Shin ends up with Kyoukai or Ten, both are fine options imo.
Shin needs to start seeing Ten in a different way tho and we can't really say what does Shin feel towards Kyoukai.

I wonder if Kyoukai has been comrade zoned.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

HamSloth said:


> Even though Ouhon could beat the Hi Shin unit, I think he is undercutting their ability. Shin is more capable than he gives him credit for.



He recognizes Ten and Kyoukai abilities (in his own way). He doesn't recognize Shin though (for good reasons) as he isn't really capable of leading men without Ten and Kyoukai.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

Ten has always been hinted to love Shin. There have always been subtle moments that shows that she had feelings for Shin. There is these moment when she get Jealous when a chick is close to Shin(well beside Kyouka. There is that princess girl or something). 

And to do something for a friend doesn't necessarily require one to be in love with them. Ten already created and forge a strong bond with Shin to the point she could put herself at risk to help him realize his dreams. Falling in love was just icing on the cake.    

Though people should have seen this coming. I mean wasn't it obvious that Ten had feelings for Shin .


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

There is a difference between loving someone and having feelings for them.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 18, 2014)

Shin is a great warrior, but a terrible commander.

He has instincts, but from the level we have seen, he would get utterly destroyed by Ouhon.
Don't forget, even if it was a while ago, that Mouten said he only needed 300 men to slaughter Shins 1000.
And Mouten is the one who has Shin in high regard.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Shin is a great warrior, but a terrible commander.
> 
> He has instincts, but from the level we have seen, he would get utterly destroyed by Ouhon.
> Don't forget, even if it was a while ago, that Mouten said he only needed 300 men to slaughter Shins 1000.
> And Mouten is the one who has Shin in high regard.



Hara is such a tease. RELEASE THE SHIN!!!


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 18, 2014)

Shin really needs to start showing some individual leading abilities, the man who wants to be greatest general under the heavens shouldn't have to rely so completely on 2 girls lol.

Since Gaimou probably wont be beaten by Shin in physical combat during this arc, I think it would be a great time to show Shin winning the battle by leading his men with his instinctual abilities.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Walrus: I think at this point Kyouka is comrade zoned by Shin. He's pretty much all about fighting and doesn't see any chick in a romantic way or something. Now that we have Ten feelings confirmed, I wonder if Hara will start developing things on Kyouka side. There is the baby thing, though Kyouka brought it up unknowingly of how it happens but she at least knew that it takes someone you trust and close to have a baby with. 

And I agree some romance wouldn't hurt. I'm not usually an hardcore romance fan in manga but I would like Kingdom to have it and keep it the way they have so far. I want a bit of romance in Kingdom because I like the manga to keep realistic. It's good Hara explore his characters feeling and other sides of them beside fighting, politics, their dreams and such. Adding that bit of romance keeps it realistic and it well managed.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Shin really needs to start showing some individual leading abilities, the man who wants to be greatest general under the heavens shouldn't have to rely so completely on 2 girls lol.
> 
> Since Gaimou probably wont be beaten by Shin in physical combat during this arc, I think it would be a great time to show Shin winning the battle by leading his men with his instinctual abilities.



The great thing is that he doesn't have to ease us into it. We haven't seen Shin in 2 years (???), nor have we seen him command any troops yet. While using her tactics, Hara could easily show us how far his instinctive abilities have progressed.


----------



## Magic (May 18, 2014)

maupp said:


> Nah Gaimou didn't touch her. Had he done so, she'd have been ripped apart. I don't think she is at that stage where she can handle Gaimou D . She has to start low tier first, maybe Shin to ease her in the game .



His D probably has the same weight as her.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

Why are some of you stating speculations and assumptions as facts anyway. Do some of you seriously believe that Mouten could have beaten Shin 1000 men with his 300 men . And what are these claims of Ouhon being able to completely floor Shin and being stated as some absolute truth. 

It's fine to state an opinions and all but some of us here state our opinions as facts and undeniable truth which make this conversation and argument some some are trying to bring as an absolute joke.


----------



## maupp (May 18, 2014)

@Remchu : .


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 18, 2014)

maupp said:


> Why are some of you stating speculations and assumptions as facts anyway. Do some of you seriously believe that Mouten could have beaten Shin 1000 men with his 300 men ..



Yes, yes I do.
Shin was losing battles against fodders, with  his elite unite back then.
And Mouten is an genius strategist commanding his own elite unit.

I find it easy to believe, that Mouten outsmarts Shin and annihilates him.
There where battles in history, which were won with worse odds than that.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 18, 2014)

Heki could beat Shin with lower numbers...


----------



## Hamtaro (May 18, 2014)

Moe said:


> He recognizes Ten and Kyoukai abilities (in his own way). He doesn't recognize Shin though (for good reasons) as he isn't really capable of leading men without Ten and Kyoukai.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Your right about Shin, his instincts haven't really developed yet, it will be a while before he can lead on his own. I still think he is selling them short a bit as a whole, even I it is just him being an ass, I mean he does have a good bit of the Duke's forces now.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 18, 2014)

HamSloth said:


> Your right about Shin, his instincts haven't really developed yet, it will be a while before he can lead on his own. I still think he is selling them short a bit as a whole, even I it is just him being an ass,* I mean he does have a good bit of the Duke's forces now*.




They are strong, but like always Shin gets the muscle heads.
Garo is the new Sosui and the rest are mostly brawn like Sousi's previous unit.

That strength is meaningless, if its not utilized properly and Ouhon knows it.
Now stop making me defend that prick .


----------



## Hamtaro (May 18, 2014)

Sosui was just in charge of logistics, isn't  Garo a 1000 man commander?  And if not Kyokai's strategies seem to complement burly forces, an she wasn't around when Sosui showed up.
I'm not trying to defend Shin or say the Hi Shin unit is better, realy I just don't like how Ouhon treats them like trash, even if he is better.


----------



## hehey (May 18, 2014)

Chap 388 is out on Mangabird (shitty quality). That new 1,000 Comander in the Gyuku Hou Unit *is the same guy who Karin sent to assassinate Moubu during his duel with Kanmei*, the guy Mouten could not do shit to.

.........a spy!!!!!

*EDIT:* looked at those chaps, never mind i am completely wrong he isnt remotely similar to that guy........

i was wrong,

could have sworn i saw that guy in Karins Army back in the Coalition arc.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 18, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> This man. I like him.



Words of wisdom


----------



## sadino (May 18, 2014)

hehey said:


> Chap 388 is out on Mangabird (shitty quality). That new 1,000 Comander in the Gyuku Hou Unit *is the same guy who Karin sent to assassinate Moubu during his duel with Kanmei*, the guy Mouten could not do shit to.
> 
> .........a spy!!!!!



Nope, but he looks a little creepy.Like an unmasked Ousen.

Maybe it's a twin?Ouhon bastard's brother\uncle?

Oh and that Spearman Wei Dragon is totally bad news, Hara even made a different effect on his attacks,just to show the difference.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 19, 2014)

About 388.

*Spoiler*: __ 




Interesting that Ousen seems to have sent his right hand man to Ouhon's unit, I wonder what kind of a role will he play and what is his purpose to be in the unit.

And Shihaku is a monster its like he has an anti tank rifle or something. But this new guy seems to be the one who's going to fight him and he seems pretty confident.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 19, 2014)

^Hopefully he wont be used as a hype man.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 19, 2014)

Spoilers.


----------



## Stannis (May 19, 2014)

RemChu said:


> His D probably has the same weight as her.



dat great general weight


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 19, 2014)

The Japanese version of 388 doesn't seem to be out yet and turnipfarmers want to use that for their translations so I guess they might always be a little behind the raws.


----------



## Shiroyasha (May 19, 2014)

There's a part of me that wants Ten to get abused just so I can see Shin's inevitable rage that ensues. Berserk style.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 19, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> About 388.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Badass Chapter, Sorry for inactivity been busy as shit.

I wonder what "Second Self" of Ousen means.  I highly doubt it's his right hand man but more or less someone that resembled a young Ousen.  Either way we'll see his worth soon.

I'm hoping it ends up being a 2 v 1 against Shihaku as there's no fucking way Ouhon can hang with that monster.

I don't know, things to continue to look grim for Qin.  Let's see what Tou can come up with to change the tides.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 20, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I wouldn't look too much into the translations yet, its pretty low quality.  Its probably going to be very different once turnipfarmers does the chapter.

And yeah, I think Hara made it pretty clear that Shihaku is stronger than Ouhon. I mean if Ouhon's spear is like a rifle then Shihaku's is a anti tank rifle.

Really looking forward to seeing the new guy doing something, it seemed as if he was almost getting things faster done than Ouhon himself.


----------



## Katou (May 20, 2014)

So Gaimou was actually a Noble Son of a Bishh . . 

" I want to find Happiness together with Shin " 
it's like a Confession already


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 20, 2014)

Gaimou is even more badass then i tought. Holy shin.


----------



## Katou (May 20, 2014)

The Guy has a Good Side


----------



## Beckman (May 20, 2014)

Boshi said:


> dat great general weight



So that's why Houken seems so pissed all the time.


----------



## Sasuke (May 20, 2014)

since I'm new to the thread 

I need to determine which members are good and which are terrible 

top 5 generals/characters?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 20, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> since I'm new to the thread
> 
> I need to determine which members are good and which are terrible
> 
> top 6 generals/characters?



1. Ousen (by a long shot)
2. Shin
3. Kanki
4. Ouki
5. Moubu
6. Houken


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 20, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> since I'm new to the thread
> 
> I need to determine which members are good *and which are terrible*




User name Sasuke.





Sasuke said:


> top 5 generals/characters?




I guess, I'm in your terrible list by now, but here it is:

 Ouki
 Kanki
 Mouten
 Kyoukai
 Riboku


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 20, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> User name Sasuke.



I figured I'd atleast break him in before mentioning it.

CS confirmed to be a cruel monster.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 20, 2014)

Moe said:


> I figured I'd atleast break him in before mentioning it.
> 
> CS confirmed to be a cruel monster.



Well, i am a schemer.
You have yet to grasp the depth of my cruelty.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 20, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> since I'm new to the thread
> 
> I need to determine which members are good and which are terrible
> 
> top 5 generals/characters?


Did you just start Kingdom or did you just decide to talk on the thread about Kingdom? In any case, welcome to the thread, and as for your question...

1.) OUKI 
2.) Kyoukai pek
3.) Kanki
4.) Tou
5.) Sei


----------



## Sasuke (May 20, 2014)

I'm used to the Sasuke jokes 

Issho, I marathoned it last week. Kingdom is GOAT.

I guess mine would be

Ouki
Tou
Moubu
Rinko
Duke

fuck Houken


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 20, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> since I'm new to the thread
> 
> I need to determine which members are good and which are terrible
> 
> top 5 generals/characters?



Rinko
Renpa
Ousen
Moubu
Bajio


----------



## Beckman (May 20, 2014)

Touki
Ouki/Tou
Duke Hyou
Renpa
Bajio


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 20, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> Issho, I marathoned it last week. Kingdom is GOAT.
> 
> I guess mine would be
> 
> ...


I know, a friend of mine got me on it, and once I got started, I couldn't stop. And when we got to the invasion...damn. It's easily one of the best manga I've ever read.
Btw, is there anyone here who *doesn't* like Ouki?


----------



## Sasuke (May 20, 2014)

Moubu vs Kanmei is the best fight in the mango. Manly as fuck.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 20, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> since I'm new to the thread
> 
> I need to determine which members are good and which are terrible
> 
> top 5 generals/characters?



Shin
Gaimou
Kanki
Ousen
Moubu


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 20, 2014)

i know you from resort.... you're not that bad.


----------



## Sphyer (May 20, 2014)

Tou
Ouki
Renpa
Moubu
Ousen


----------



## Veggie (May 20, 2014)

Duke
Kanki
Moubu
Ouki 
Tou

I think those my favorite Generals


----------



## OS (May 20, 2014)

Caught up with this series. Really fun.


Kyoukai will win the shin-bowl

I also kinda wish shin had that Gutts mentality where he would often go berserk. But I like watching the way he does things just fine the way it is.


----------



## Butcher (May 20, 2014)

Chapter 200


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 20, 2014)

New blood 

Ouki
Bajio
Yotanwa
Tou
Duke


----------



## Sasuke (May 20, 2014)

Shin said:


> Shin
> Gaimou
> Kanki
> Ousen
> Moubu



> no ouki

it seems my first impression of you was spot on :ignoramus


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (May 20, 2014)

Butcher said:


> Chapter 200





OS said:


> Caught up with this series. Really fun.
> 
> 
> Kyoukai will win the shin-bowl
> ...


Glad you guys picked up the series as well. Wait til you get to the Invasion...it is going to blow your mind. 


Shin said:


> Shin
> Gaimou
> Kanki
> Ousen
> Moubu


No Ouki...why Shin, why?


----------



## OS (May 20, 2014)

This was probably in my top 2 in this series


----------



## Zeno (May 21, 2014)

Sasuke said:


> since I'm new to the thread
> 
> I need to determine which members are good and which are terrible
> 
> top 5 generals/characters?



1. Ouki
2. Ouki
3. Ouki
4. Ouki
5. Yup you guessed it 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Moubu


----------



## Katou (May 21, 2014)

OS said:


> This was probably in my top 2 in this series



They're a Funny Bunch


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 21, 2014)

My top 5 characters are.....

Ouki
Tou
Mouten
Shin (sometimes)
Sei

But I like most of the characters anyway and my top 5 is constantly changing.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 21, 2014)

Moe, you read those missing arcs breh?


----------



## maupp (May 21, 2014)

This place has gotten a lot slower since the time of chapters flood. Now that we get 1 chap every week, this thread doesn't feel right anymore


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 21, 2014)

Its been damaged by the division in translation.
Since there are three groups now, those who rely on turnips version, have chosen to avoid the thread in fear of spoilers.
So the thread was effectively fractured and robbed of its momentum.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 21, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Its been damaged by the division in translation.
> Since there are three groups now, those who rely on turnips version, have chosen to avoid the thread in fear of spoilers.
> So the thread was effectively fractured and robbed of its momentum.



We just need turnips or another team with similar quality to catch up and become a consistent/stable release.

Then we'll get back on track


----------



## Shiroyasha (May 21, 2014)

Ouki
Tou
Shin
Renpa
Duke Hyou
Moubu 

No order except for Ouki at the top.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 21, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Moe, you read those missing arcs breh?



Yes, still reading.



JiraiyaForever said:


> We just need turnips or another team with similar quality to catch up and become a consistent/stable release.
> 
> Then we'll get back on track



Well, TF will be releasing on a weekly, starting with 388 next Saturday or Sunday.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 21, 2014)

Yeah, that will help greatly.

Mangajoy really did a divide and conquer on this thread. Slowly but surely the momentum crept to a snails pace. 
Plenty of  posts were ignored to avoid spoilers. So no real discussion could even take off, since it got snuffed out by new comments on a chapter, that some read a while ago.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 21, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Yeah, that will help greatly.
> 
> Mangajoy really did a divide and conquer on this thread. Slowly but surely the momentum crept to a snails pace.
> Plenty of  posts were ignored to avoid spoilers. So no real discussion could even take off, since it got snuffed out by new comments on a chapter, that some read a while ago.



We'll also always be a few days to a week behind the raw every week unless TF can find a dedicated raw provider.


----------



## Zeno (May 21, 2014)

Yeah I'm just going to keep reading this on Batoto. This is one manga I want to experience in its fullest quality.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 22, 2014)

Could use a new poll soon, this one is pretty old. Is Shin (poster) still around?

Anyway have people read 388 yet? Or waiting for turnipfarmers?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 22, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Could use a new poll soon, this one is pretty old. Is Shin (poster) still around?
> 
> Anyway have people read 388 yet? Or waiting for turnipfarmers?



I think they are waiting for TF.
Dunno if we are going to do this every week...


----------



## B Rabbit (May 22, 2014)

I always wait for Turnip farmers.


----------



## Tempproxy (May 23, 2014)

B Rabbit said:


> I always wait for Turnip farmers.



Yes better to read a chapter that is coherent than struggle to understand what the fuck has been said.


----------



## Sphyer (May 23, 2014)

Personally for me, I just read whatever is already out and then eventually go to turnip farmers for better quality.


----------



## maupp (May 23, 2014)

This is so disrupting. I mean how are we meant to discuss weekly chapter if some read before on other side and can talk about it for fear of spoiling other. Apparently some have already read chap 388 but can't talk about it because other posters(including myself) are waiting for better translations or sire to release the chapter. 

I hope they fix this and just find normal site of translation weekly like they do with other mangas. This is all messed up . 

And MS should pick up Kingdom already, what are they waiting for anyways .


----------



## Sphyer (May 23, 2014)

This all goes back to how unfortunately, it seems that the Japanese raws for Kingdom come out much later than the Chinese scans for Kingdom and mostly why most other scan groups like TF and Mangajoy are generally still going to be around a week behind each chapter because of that. Mangabird does release crappy translated/scanned versions based off the Chinese version but yeah, honestly it's kind of a shame that it seems obtaining the original japanese raw for a manga is more of a hassle than getting a scanned version of it in a different language.

Not much that can be done though.

If people want to discuss the true latest chapter, just use spoiler tags and those who saw can just speak through that.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 23, 2014)

KIG is going to be so mad at me...


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 23, 2014)

So Moe, did you like the assassination arc? Assuming that you have gotten to that part in the past 2 weeks?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 23, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> So Moe, did you like the assassination arc? Assuming that you have gotten to that part in the past 2 weeks?



*cough* Ummmm, I really liked how Kyouka fought and stuff. *cough*

I'm not there yet. Kinda busy with work and a research project, but I should have a lot more free time next week to go through a chunk of it.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 23, 2014)

I'm kinda surprised that you managed to watch the anime without knowing the manga. I would of honestly dropped it after 5 mins and would have never looked back.

When exactly did you start reading the manga anyway? At the end of season 1? Or midway season 2?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 23, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I'm kinda surprised that you managed to watch the anime without knowing the manga. I would of honestly dropped it after 5 mins and would have never looked back.
> 
> When exactly did you start reading the manga anyway? At the end of season 1? Or midway season 2?



I'm very anti-manga. The only manga I like in its form are Kingdom and Berserk (as in I'd rather read the manga than watch the anime). Every other manga, I usually prefer the anime adaptation to it.

Just from my , most of those manga I picked up after watching the anime.

Berserk - picked up after watching the show. Started from where the show ended. Then reread the entire thing from scratch (the only manga I've done that for).
Magi - picked up after watching the S1, started from where S1 left off.
D-Grayman - ditto - pref the anime
FT - ditto - pref the anime
Highschool of the Dead - ditto - DEFINITELY prefer the anime
Hunter x hunter - ditto - DEFINITELY prefer the anime
Kingdom - ditto, was planning to reread it when the manga caught up.
Naruto - ditto - shipuuden was just a torture to watch
Shingeki no Kyojin - ditto - prefer the anime 
Bleach - found the anime appalling, so I turned to the manga.
One Piece - I watched like 640 episode beofre I started on the manga.

I found the anime adaptation to be ugly, but the story was too fucking awesome. I then asked you guys if the anime followed the manga, which many of you said it did. When I started to read it, which was from early part of S2 onwards (beginning of Wei Arc), I then realized what a huge mistake it was. Honestly, I had no idea there was a Kingdom thread. I was browsing the main page when I saw it from there and then I made my first post on page 34 of the first Kingdom thread. I wanted to be a part of the discussions, so I decided to reread the entire thing once we caught up.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 23, 2014)

Im the opposite lol.

Although its not because I dislike the animes for the most part anyway, cause quite a few animes do indeed suck ass and the manga does not. Cough toriko cough.

Anyway its mostly for time reasons....no way in hell I can watch anime for all the manga I read it just cant happen lol.

Only anime I watch right now is HxH and sometimes one piece episodes if I hear one is actually good.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 23, 2014)

Moe is an anime heathen

LYNCH HIM!


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 23, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> Moe is an anime heathen
> 
> LYNCH HIM!





Come get me. YOU KNOW WHERE TO FIND ME!!!

*sits on the very top of his fortress...waiting...*


----------



## rajin (May 23, 2014)

*Kingdom 388 Raw*

*Ch.159*


----------



## maupp (May 24, 2014)

I myself prefer the manga but I do watch some anime. Though I'm not the biggest fan of anime due to hoe they just sometimes change content from the manga and do whatever the hell they like. 

I read kingdom and always been manga first. I tried to watch the anime, but boy that shit was completely terrible. Even some fan made anime looked better than Kingdom anime. 

I couldn't even finish one episode. Everything anime wise was crap to me even the opening song. I quickly waved goodbye to the anime and never tried to watch it again. It was horrific .


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

I only watch the anime if I feel like its good enough and in Kingdom's case it was pretty damn far from being good enough for me. 

I still watched the whole anime, but that was only after I had read the manga. The anime just felt so wrong, horrible quality, censorship and the whole mood of the series felt completely different.


----------



## Sphyer (May 24, 2014)

The only real thing the anime was good for me was it's soundtrack (which is was uploaded online already...).

That and a few moments still felt emotional and done well (like Ouki's death).

Anyway...

388 is out now from TF

Link removed

Meanwhile

Chinese scan of 389 is out for those who wish to check it out. General English summary of the chapter is on the last page

New chapter out on Mangajoy.

Shihaku is awesome


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 24, 2014)

So it seems Ouhons unit got an overpowered addition during the time skip.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 24, 2014)

Damn, Shihaku is a pretty fearsome fighter. 

Kanjou looks good as well. Hopefully he remains under Ouhoun rather than go back to Ousen.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

This chapter has painted Ouhon's unit to be comfortably above Shin's unit. 

What I did find funny is that Ouhon's army ACTUALLY came out unscathed:



Seeing how he hasn't lost any men (he began with 5k men). Silly Hara. Does he expect us to believe Ouhon went through a 10k army unscathed? He is fighting the reserves now, as he had already broken through the first defense line (which was the original 10k army).

Also, this goes against my first analysis of that lengthy post detailing their number count. I was under the impression Shin could use the cover and lack poor comunication to waltz straight through to the HQ, but it seems that isn't possible:



Seems that they'll have to actually fight the reserve army.

SO AGAIN, how the hell will Qin even win this war. Is hHara just going to slay every general left and right?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Well I doubt they got through literally unscathed, they must of had some losses, but just so little that it hardly even counts. Gyoku Hou are elites within elites and they didn't face against anyone strong before Shihaku.

I guess the fact that they will do the final attack on the 3rd day means that they will spend the first 2 days clearing the way and making it easier for a final push. If they are capable of breaking through to the Wei base and take out Gohoumei, they should win the war. 

I really don't see Shihaku or Gaimou dying, both of them are clearly monsters still comfortably above Ouhon and Shin. Maybe Qin might lose this war, it seems so unlikely that they could win this one.

Looking forward to seeing just what is Kanjou after and how strong he is.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well I doubt they got through literally unscathed, they must of had some losses, but just so little that it hardly even counts. Gyoku Hou are elites within elites and they didn't face against anyone strong before Shihaku.
> 
> I guess the fact that they will do the final attack on the 3rd day means that they will spend the first 2 days clearing the way and making it easier for a final push. If they are capable of breaking through to the Wei base and take out Gohoumei, they should win the war.
> 
> ...



Yea, but I find it silly they've had so little casualties after battling the first defense line that had twice as many soldiers as his. 

Honestly, I'm kinda dissapointed with this arc because of how ridiculously improbable a lot of these situations are.

First of all, Wei should have like 10 times the number of Qin soldiers
Ouhon blasted through a 10k army with his 5k army, and managed to come out unscathed? How? did he kill their general? That could possibly make sense, but at the same time what happened to the soldiers. Did Ouhon split them like Moses and the Red Sea? I doubt they'd just stop fighting and move aside. Their losses are just so fucking improbable that it sounds like PIS. He will then have to face another 10k reserve army led by Shihaku, if he doesn't lose half his men, I'd be hella surprised. Then you have the monster Gohoumei waiting for them at the HQ. I can't possibly fathom how Qin can win this war. The only way I can see this happen is some FT-level PIS.


----------



## Katou (May 24, 2014)

I have a feeling that Kanjou is a spy  
a Tummy feeling . .

that or a he's a Plot Food for Shikaku to make Gyoku Hou Unit cower in fear

since Kanjou had a small Hype.. but putting Ousen's name on him was suffice enough to make him seem threatening


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Well imagine it like...Duke Hyou's army blasting through some fodder, they probably wont lose much people at all with their momentum. The whole Gyouky Hou unit is of cavarly and the Wei front army seems to be mostly infantry.
They probably just couldn't keep up with the Gyoku Hou and suffered heavy losses and decided to retreat. It doesn't seem too impossible to me. Its not like they fought in a huge melee 5k vs 10k and killed them all, they just blasted through them with sheer momentum.

The point of the final assault is to attack Gohoumei with the Hi Shin unit, Gyuoku Hou and Rokuomi's unit at the same time from 3 directions. Gohoumei would have to pull some god tier shit to get himself out of that one without retreating.

But them winning this war at this point will take some major bullshit to happen. I wont accept it unless its like Ousen comes to help them with at least 50k strong army.

Or Hara could use Tou and have him and Rokuomi win the middle battlefield and pressure the Wei basecamp and thus forcing the sides to retreat. 

Anyway, I'll be seriously fucking mad if Shin or Ouhon beat Shihaku and Gaimou in combat.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 24, 2014)

This is our first arc where we don't get 5+ chapters a week.

I think it's harder on us all then we imagined


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well imagine it like...Duke Hyou's army blasting through some fodder, they probably wont lose much people at all with their momentum. The whole Gyouky Hou unit is of cavarly and the Wei front army seems to be mostly infantry.



They actually have infantry, and there seems to be quite a bit of them:







> They probably just couldn't keep up with the Gyoku Hou and suffered heavy losses and decided to retreat. It doesn't seem too impossible for me. Its not like they fought in a huge melee 5k vs 10k and killed them all, they just blasted through them with sheer momentum.



I know that it prolly wasn't a full on brawl, but still, the casualties seem really low on Ouhon's side. I'd be hella worried of an attack from behind.



> The point of the final assault is to attack Gohoumei with the Hi Shin unit, Gyuoku Hou and Rokuomi's unit at the same time from 3 directions. Gohoumei would have to pull some god tier shit to get himself out of that one without retreating.



He doesn't have to. He has 30k men and PROLLY 2 Wei Dragons at the very least. Even if he doesn't have any Wei Dragons. He still has prolly 1.5-2.5 times as many men.



> But them winning this war at this point will take some major bullshit to happen. I wont accept it unless its like Ousen comes to help them with at least 50k strong army.
> 
> Or Hara could use Tou and have him and Rokuomi win the middle battlefield and pressure the Wei basecamp and thus forcing the sides to retreat.



This is probably the most likely outcome, that Tou will be the winning factor in this war. This should be the PERFECT setup to hype up Tou with, yes, omg, ACTUAL FEATS. I hope the fight doesn't get off-panelled.  



> Anyway, I'll be seriously fucking mad if Shin or Ouhon beat Shihaku and Gaimou in combat.



Definitely.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Oh wow, I didn't even notice the infantry. They didn't like get to fight at all. And it does say that they managed to defeat enemy reserve army's first wave. I guess they did wipe out them with 5k men.

*Spoiler*: __ 







It says that they won the first day pretty much unscathed, but there's no comment on the second days losses, they must of lost some people.

Gyoku Hou must of gotten pretty damn strong, they might be around the same strength as other top tier army units at this point. 

Shin really feels like hes far behind tbh, even with Kyoukai and Ten. He really needs to show something impressive in this war when it comes to leading his own army.



> He doesn't have to. He has 30k men and PROLLY 2 Wei Dragons at the very least. Even if he doesn't have any Wei Dragons. He still has prolly 1.5-2.5 times as many men.



True, but if they are being attacked from 3 sides at once and somehow the fire dragons will be late for the party, Gohoumei will have a hard time fighting against an attack from 3 sides.

But even so, I feel like it should by all means be impossible for Qin to win this war with what they got right now. Unless Tou pulls out something magical or they get help from someone else.

There's no way any of the units can break through with all their 5k men and then proceed to go through another 10-30k men in the basecamp. 
This arc is pretty weird, I have no idea on how it could end at this point.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> This arc is pretty weird, I have no idea on how it could end at this point.



It ends through him:


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Hmm, funny now that Kanjou is here....He might be here to investigate the battlefield and send some reports to Ousen and have him come in and save the day.

Ousen expected to be called for help so he must of prepared some kind of a plan already, this could be a good way to hype up Ousen as well in this arc. 
But he can't just leave his position at the Zhao border...but I guess he could leave some men behind so its possible for him to come.

The more I think about it, the more possible it seems that Ousen will come help, Ouhon was so against it so it would almost be ironic that Ousen would come and save the day anyway.
The moment when Ouhon wants to prove what a big man he is gets ruined by his father and Ouhon will always seemingly stay in his shadow. 

In fact I actually do hope that Ousen comes to save the day, I really want to see him and Ouhon interact, that is probably in like top 3 things that I look forward to the most right now in Kingdom.


----------



## Butcher (May 24, 2014)

Halfway through chapter 212.

This Kanki fellow .


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 24, 2014)

Ou Sen seems more and more shady. I like it. Maybe he will become a potential new thread to Sei after Ryo Fui has been dealt with?


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Ousen has no real political power tho, hes kinda unknown since hes always been in the shadows. I don't see him being a political threat tbh, but I can see him eventually turning on Qin. He needs to do some serious recruiting if he wants to challenge an entire super state like Qin tho.

There is potential villain in him. I see no reason for Hara to build him up with these shady ambitions for him  never to act on them later on. 

Really hope we get more from him soon.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

Is it Ou sen or Ousen?


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 24, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Ousen has no real political power tho, hes kinda unknown since hes always been in the shadows. I don't see him being a political threat tbh, but I can see him eventually turning on Qin. He needs to do some serious recruiting if he wants to challenge an entire super state like Qin tho.
> 
> There is potential villain in him. I see no reason for Hara to build him up with these shady ambitions for him  never to act on them later on.
> 
> Really hope we get more from him soon.



I think his plan is something along the lines of getting the most possible number of people on his side and spread the ones he trusts in other armies. So he can eventually do a copu d'etat.

Certainly one of the characters whose actions in the futere I look the most forward to.



Moe said:


> Is it Ou sen or Ousen?



I think translating it both ways is probably correct.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Its Ou Sen actually, but I don't think it really matters. When they introduce a character they put it like Ou Sen or Kan Jou, but then they will just put it Ousen and Kanjou when talking about the characters otherwise.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 24, 2014)

Moe said:


> Is it Ou sen or Ousen?



His name is Sen, ou is his family name. This was explained in the manga 

Shouldnt expect more out of an anime heathen I suppose


----------



## Sphyer (May 24, 2014)

Moe said:


> Is it Ou sen or Ousen?



It's Wang Jian


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

And never ever google his name or you will be majorly spoiled. I wonder how many poor guys googled Kingdom names without knowing that its based on real history and spoiled themselves.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> His name is Sen, ou is his family name. This was explained in the manga



I know that (like I'm offended here), but when you type it, do you write it as Ou Sen or Ousen. You see it as both ways in the manga. So which is the correct way to write it.



Zhen Chan said:


> Shouldnt expect more out of an anime heathen I suppose





Sphyer said:


> It's Wang Jian



Ouch... 

Felt the burn on that one.


----------



## Stannis (May 24, 2014)

so we're finally caught up eh

I have always dreaded this day 





MightiestRooster said:


> Ou Sen seems more and more shady. I like it. Maybe he will become a potential new thread to Sei after Ryo Fui has been dealt with?



one day he'll face sei and he'll realize how small his dream is next to sei's and then he'll help him in the unification. sei can promise him to rule one of the kingdoms qin gonna  conquer in his name as well.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 24, 2014)

Boshi said:


> one day he'll face sei and he'll realize how small his dream is next to sei's and then he'll help him in the unification. sei can promise him to rule one of the kingdoms qin gonna  conquer in his name as well.



Dunno about it, that sounds really out of character for someone like OuSen. Than again, Hara went with out of character quite significantly with SeiKyou, so at this stage, everything is possible.


----------



## Sphyer (May 24, 2014)

Boshi said:


> so we're finally caught up eh



Technically no since we're still a chap behind and it'll remain that way until those at Nippon start releasing japanese raws faster.

It's almost kind of funny thinking that there was so much hype about catching up to the raws and now it's almost like we will never technically catch up because we'll always be exactly one chapter behind


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Seikyou was still a child when he did his shit, I don't think hes really comparable to Ousen.

Seikyou lived his entire life thinking hes superior and that he would become king, but then Sei who's mother is a whore from Zhao comes in and becomes the king. He was mad and for at least  a somewhat decent reason. Sure he did fucked up shit, but that could mostly be blamed on the people and ideas he grew up with.

But Seikyou was locked up for a few years and had some time to think. And Sei really inspired him with his own actions and made him see the ''light''. It was almost an 180 for his character, but it didn't feel like complete bs.

Don't think that shit will work on Ousen who's probably spent the better part of his life dreaming about becoming a king and is in his 40's.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 24, 2014)

That would've make some sense, but for that SeiKyou would have to become a completely different person. But that wasn't the case. He still had the same attitude, same character, same arrogance towards every one who isn't pure blooded. But than suddenly we have a mention of him, like you said doing a 180. Out of the blue. No character change, no change of attitude no nothing. That's what I meant by saying it was out of character.


----------



## Stannis (May 24, 2014)

MightiestRooster said:


> Dunno about it, that sounds really out of character for someone like OuSen. Than again, Hara went with out of character quite significantly with SeiKyou, so at this stage, everything is possible.



b-but history mang.. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



oooor he can swap ousen's story with   another certain character's  






Sphyer said:


> Technically no since we're still a chap behind and it'll remain that way until those at Nippon start releasing japanese raws faster.
> 
> It's almost kind of funny thinking that there was so much hype about catching up to the raws and now it's almost like we will never technically catch up because we'll always be exactly one chapter behind



technicalities m8 

the sad truth remains we're only getting one chapter a week..


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

He started to change due to Sei giving him inspiration and him actually growing up as a person. He was still a cunt, but he was softening up. 
We saw the flashback at the start of the Seikyou arc, where Sei told him his goals and the reasoning as to why hes going to Sai and fight for his people. That would be what triggered the real change within Seikyou and that was 2 years before Seikyou died so he did have quite some time to think about things and change as a person.

I don't think it really was too out of character, at least to a point where it was hard to swallow. Maybe I'm bias, but it didn't bother me at all.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 24, 2014)

A guy who is all about how a king has to be of pure blood and every one who is not of pure blood is basically trash to him goes and decides to be loyal to a guy who is exactly that kind of thrash and whom he hated quite a lot of years exactly because of that and does that without any major change in his behaviour.

Sound pretty out of character to me. But maybe it's like that just because there was complete lack of foreshadowing until it was actually revealed by the mangaka himself.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 24, 2014)

Loyal? What do you mean by loyal? All that was really said was that Seikyou wanted to get rid off Ryofui and then come after Sei. There were some hints that he had already given up on even that, but nothing was confirmed.

There was also slight foreshadowing when Sei originally left to defend Sai and actually left his throne for Seikyou after they talked, which is a pretty big sign of trust that he had on Seikyou. He saw Sei doing something that a real king would do and took some inspiration from that, that's what triggered the change and allowed him to grow up as a person rather than be the same little kid with a narrow mindset.


----------



## convict (May 24, 2014)

I agree that Kingdom is usually great at not gagging us with completely improbable situations and doing so occasionally to elevate the tension. Ouhon and company just casually blasting through twice as many men with no issues and being ready to face thousands more seems out of the blue and weird.


----------



## corsair (May 24, 2014)

We kinda caught up. I always feared this time would come.

But I'll wear my Ousen ava again.



MightiestRooster said:


> Dunno about it, that sounds really out of character for someone like OuSen. Than again, Hara went with out of character quite significantly with SeiKyou, so at this stage, everything is possible.



There can also be a thing called character development. Not like Ousen has much of a character so far. Besides staring and wanting to be king.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 24, 2014)

He'll get his development sooner or later.


----------



## Mystic Ballad (May 24, 2014)

Ousen sent Kanjou to try recruiting firedragons lol. And Ouhon should learn a move or two from Shihaku.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 25, 2014)

We are now at weakly release.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 25, 2014)

So I'm setting up the new poll and this time it will be, "Which Kingdom weapon would you use in battle?"

Bow & Arrow
Glaive
Spear
Sword
Dual Swords
Saber
Dual Sabers
Poison
Mace
Boulder Mace
Shield + Sword
Shield + Glaive
Shield + Saber
Axe


What else am I missing?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 25, 2014)

Moe said:


> So I'm setting up the new poll and this time it will be, "Which Kingdom weapon would you use in battle?"
> 
> Bow & Arrow
> Glaive
> ...



That is too vague. You can use poison on most of those weapons.
So its a cheat in a way.

Your missing Ten's blowgun.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 25, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> That is too vague. You can use poison on most of those weapons.
> So its a cheat in a way.
> 
> Your missing Ten's blowgun.



Ten's blowgun would fall under the category of poison.

The emphasis is on the use of poison, not the weapon. Either way, poison on swords or spears are not practical considering that most of the poison would get diluted after several swings.

 That leaves projectiles considering they are all, for the most part, single use weapons. So I'll change it to poison projectiles (i.e Ten's blowgun, poison spear bomb, etc).


----------



## Snoozles (May 25, 2014)

Sword and shield

And technically there's a difference between a jian (sword) and a dao (saber). Xin has a jian and Rinko had dual daos.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 25, 2014)

389 is translated by Mangajoy, its actually pretty decent quality. At least readable.


----------



## Sphyer (May 25, 2014)

Moe said:


> So I'm setting up the new poll and this time it will be, "Which Kingdom weapon would you use in battle?"
> 
> Bow & Arrow
> Glaive
> ...



Well even though we haven't really seen it in action as much, Oukotsu used an Axe for a weapon and I don't recall anybody using such aside from him.




Though if I had to choose, I probably would go with either a Glaive or Spear (after seeing what Shihaku can do with it). Glaive would be my first choice at least


----------



## Beckman (May 26, 2014)

I'm really not a fan of Ouhons plan... 3 separate 5k armys shall somehow smash through  armies four times as big and still come out in a shape where they can take on the enemys base camp. They also only have 3 days to do so. That's something someone like Duke Hyou would have problem to succed with. Doeesn't make it better that two of the three armies will face off against some of the best Wei generals of the era.

Most of the wars in Kingdom so far have had a realistic feeling about it, but this time it's really pushing it. Sucks cuz I really wanna like this arc with Tou beeing the lead general an all.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 26, 2014)

Benn Beckman said:


> I'm really not a fan of Ouhons plan... 3 separate 5k armys shall somehow smash through  armies four times as big and still come out in a shape where they can take on the enemys base camp. They also only have 3 days to do so. That's something someone like Duke Hyou would have problem to succed with. Doeesn't make it better that two of the three armies will face off against some of the best Wei generals of the era.
> 
> *Most of the wars in Kingdom so far have had a realistic feeling about it, but this time it's really pushing it.* Sucks cuz I really wanna like this arc with Tou beeing the lead general an all.



Well not really. In the first war we had a bunch of guys who were complete novices break through lines of enemies making it to the summit. In the second war, we had a newly formed 100 men unit break through a couple of thousand soldiers and murdering the general who was in the centre, still leaving half of them alive. And than in the coalition war, we had 2000 men breaking through 30 000. 

Now you have the same unit who did all this numbering 5000 with much more individual strength and experience, not to mention that they were fighting together for two years like this. 

So from that point of view, for that 5000 men unit to be able to to all this is not that far-fetched. Or rather, they were doing far-fetched things this whole time already and they were presumably much weaker than.

P.S.: I was too lazy to check the actual numbers, so some are probably wrong, but you get the picture.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 26, 2014)

Fodder only counts for so much in Kingdom. An elite unit with a strong commander will be able to win against huge odds. 

I mean heck, Duke Hyou managed to fight Wei soldiers with just 10k men against 100k. He probably wouldn't of won, but he could already do quite a bit with his elite troops and himself in the lead.

What Ouhon did is pretty standard in Kingdom.


----------



## Katou (May 26, 2014)

But he manage to pull it off without losing anyone


----------



## Beckman (May 26, 2014)

MightiestRooster said:


> Well not really. In the first war we had a bunch of guys who were complete novices break through lines of enemies making it to the summit. In the second war, we had a newly formed 100 men unit break through a couple of thousand soldiers and murdering the general who was in the centre, still leaving half of them alive. And than in the coalition war, we had 2000 men breaking through 30 000.
> 
> Now you have the same unit who did all this numbering 5000 with much more individual strength and experience, not to mention that they were fighting together for two years like this.
> 
> ...





lazorwalrus said:


> Fodder only counts for so much in Kingdom. An elite unit with a strong commander will be able to win against huge odds.
> 
> I mean heck, Duke Hyou managed to fight Wei soldiers with just 10k men against 100k. He probably wouldn't of won, but he could already do quite a bit with his elite troops and himself in the lead.
> 
> What Ouhon did is pretty standard in Kingdom.



Neighter of these really had the objective to destroy the opposing army tho. They merley needed to get through to reach another objective, such as a generals head. 

In this battle they'll first need to destroy the opposing reserve armies or they'll be hit in the rear while attacking the base camp, which is the main objective.

To do this with a much smaller army, on a tight time schedule while maintaining enough strengh to take down the Wei main camp, that is what I have a problem with.


----------



## B Rabbit (May 26, 2014)

I think this war is to just show Ouhon, and Shin as future generals and how with small nu,bers overcome much bigger numbers. However I agree, kinda weirded out. by this strategy.


----------



## Katou (May 26, 2014)

So Hara started to name attacks now


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 26, 2014)

It never said that they need to obliterate the opposing armies. Numerous times it has been stated how 100k armies go into complete disarray when the great general falls. Their goal is Gouhoumei.

I completely agree with LW that elite units can take on armies 5-10x larger, because no war in kingdom has ever been about annihilating every farmer/mason with a sword in the opposing army... It's about taking objectives.

I think you're all jumping on Ouhon's plan too quick as well. Tou probably just agreed with Ouhon because he saw how he could use the situation to his advantage.  This isn't Ouhon's war, it's Tou's; and we haven't seen anything yet.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 26, 2014)

Benn Beckman said:


> Neighter of these really had the objective to destroy the opposing army tho. They merley needed to get through to reach another objective, such as a generals head.
> 
> In this battle they'll first need to totally destroy the opposing reserve armies or they'll be hit in the rear while attacking the base camp, which is the main objective.
> 
> To do this with a much smaller army, on a tight time schedule while maintaining enough strengh to take down the Wei main camp, that is what I have a problem with.



I agree with you and you're completely right about it, it's just that if you take into consideration what they did in the past, how they supposedly grew from the past, that they are a fully established unit now and that there was a two year timeskip, adding all this factors together, it's not that far fetched to do what they are doing now as 5000 men units. Sure it's completely unrealistic, but my point is, the achievements they've got in the past were already quite unrealistic to begin with. 

So if you add the development to it, you should get something even much more unrealistic, which is pretty much what they are doing now. 

Sure the plan seems completely stupid because it's relaying only on unrealistic strength of these two units (leaving the third one aside for now), but hadn't Ouki done something similar, with how he believed a 100 men newly formed Hi Shin will be able to break through couple of  thousand soldiers? 

But yeah, I completely agree with the fact, that for Goyku Hou Unit to be able to break through unscratched is pushing it.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 26, 2014)

MightiestRooster said:


> I agree with you and you're completely right about it, it's just that if you take into consideration what they did in the past, how they supposedly grew from the past, that they are a fully established unit now and that there was a two year timeskip, adding all this factors together, it's not that far fetched to do what they are doing now as 5000 men units. Sure it's completely unrealistic, but my point is, the achievements they've got in the past were already quite unrealistic to begin with.
> 
> So if you add the development to it, you should get something even much more unrealistic, which is pretty much what they are doing now.
> 
> ...



Ouki used the entirety of his left army to create a diversion for the hi shin unit, which had Fuuki's attention all the way until he could literally see Shin.

You know what was unrealistic? Expecting Riboku's army to lose at Sai because they ran out of supplies after 8 days.

GG


----------



## Beckman (May 26, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> It never said that they need to obliterate the opposing armies. Numerous times it has been stated how 100k armies go into complete disarray when the great general falls. Their goal is Gouhoumei.
> 
> I completely agree with LW that elite units can take on armies 5-10x larger, because no war in kingdom has ever been about annihilating every farmer/mason with a sword in the opposing army... It's about taking objectives.
> 
> I think you're all jumping on Ouhon's plan too quick as well. Tou probably just agreed with Ouhon because he saw how he could use the situation to his advantage.  This isn't Ouhon's war, it's Tou's; and we haven't seen anything yet.



True, they don't have to completely annialte every single person, but they have to hit them hard enough to make sure they can't regroup as soon as a chance is given, and that should take both time and lives.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 26, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Ouki used the entirety of his left army to create a diversion for the hi shin unit, which had Fuuki's attention all the way until he could literally see Shin.
> 
> You know what was unrealistic? Expecting Riboku's army to lose at Sai because they ran out of supplies after 8 days.
> 
> GG



-Yes and there were still couple of thousand soldiers guarding Fuuki after that diversion. Although if you think that in real life, a newly formed 100 men unit could take blaze through couple of thousands under these circumstances, than there is no point in continuing this discussion. 

- That depends on whether they had means of resupplying. If not, running out of supplies in 8 days is completely realistic under the circumstances they were in. You are underestimating how much more the supply consumption increases when you are fighting almost non stop.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 26, 2014)

MightiestRooster said:


> -Yes and there were still couple of thousand soldiers guarding Fuuki after that diversion. Although if you think that in real life, a newly formed 100 men unit could take blaze through couple of thousands under these circumstances, than there is no point in continuing this discussion.
> 
> - That depends on whether they had means of resupplying. If not, running out of supplies in 8 days is completely realistic under the circumstances they were in. You are underestimating how much more the supply consumption increases when you are fighting almost non stop.



They didn't blaze through 2,000. They blazed through the mid section of one of four walls that consisted of 500. They could've easily wiped out the HSU but Fuuki didn't give a shit about them due to Ouki's diversion.  It was a gamble and it paid off.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 26, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> They didn't blaze through 2,000. They blazed through the mid section of one of four walls that consisted of 500. They could've easily wiped out the HSU but Fuuki didn't give a shit about them due to Ouki's diversion.  It was a gamble and it paid off.



When I said couple of thousand I didn't mean it literary. I said couple because I wasn't sure of the exact number. As it turns out, there were in fact 5000 soldiers, defending Fuuki:



Which means 1250 per one wall. And besides that you have a strategist in the manga stating that it's reckless. So what you are saying is, that even though a manga character says it's reckless and even though it was 100 soldiers against 1250 soldiers (And that was only in one wall, they received reinforcements from other walls later on), it's still a realistic situation and a good plan to go with in real life. 
In real life, it wouldn't matter if Fuuki gave shit about them or not. In fact, there would be no point to give a shit about them. It's a newly formed 100 men unit against 1250 fully equipped soldiers for christ sake's. 

P.S.: Just to make sure that people understand this, I'm not saying it wasn't a good plan. It was a great plan. But in manga. Because it's clear that in this manga just as in other mangas, things which wouldn't be possible in real life are possible in manga world. But no, there is no way that this could be considered a good plan in real life, so yeah, it was unrealistic.

-Btw I like how you brought back a 1000 post old topic and than didn't respond to it. There was so much point in doing that.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 26, 2014)

Sorry couldn't resist bringing up the supply theory.

Again, they didn't fight and kill a force of 1250.  They wedged through a wall consisting of 1250 and then had the aid of the left army commander after breaking through the line. I hope you understand the difference.

Also small special units breaking through massive enemy lines have been used throughout history and still used today.  Since you persist on bringing up real life with your vast knowledge and experience of it.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 26, 2014)

Poison ftw.

I would put it on my arrows and be an archer.
Though, I wouldn't use the kind that turns me into a freak.

No way will I willingly get close to those generals and die.
I rather take the ten bow of China route and kill them off with a headshot from a safe distance.


----------



## MightiestRooster (May 26, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Sorry couldn't resist bringing up the supply theory.




- Why? Or are you seriously so arrogant you believe there was not way you could've been wrong about that? 




JiraiyaForever said:


> Again, they didn't fight and kill a force of 1250.  They wedged through a  wall consisting of 1250 and then had the aid of the left army commander  after breaking through the line. I hope you understand the difference.
> 
> Also small special units breaking through massive enemy lines have been  used throughout history and still used today.  Since you persist on  bringing up real life with your vast knowledge and experience of  it.



Sure I understand it, but let's turn it around. It wasn't like there were only fighting the soldiers directly on their way to Fuuki, while the other soldiers in that wall were just standing there not giving a care about it. 

-link/source? Because if you can get me a source for a situation like this happening, than I will have no problem in admitting I was wrong.
But if you can't, why bring it up? If you at least said that you once read that in a book which name you don't remember, it would be still more meaningful than just bluntly stating it like this. 

And I persist in bringing real life because you argued with me that this situation is actually *real*istic.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 26, 2014)

I gotta roll with the two swords, Rinko style 

Edit: If you're American, read any revolutionary war history book. Acting like a special unit breaking through enemy lines to take a commander's head is an idea created by mangakas.  Nothing else to say.


----------



## Beckman (May 26, 2014)

Gotta pick the glaive. The manga wouldn't be the same without it. A glaive should probably be used dual wielded to be effective, but wouldn't hurt to have an emergency shield with you to deal with volleys of arrows.


----------



## Typhon (May 26, 2014)

Moe said:


> So I'm setting up the new poll and this time it will be, "Which Kingdom weapon would you use in battle?"
> 
> Bow & Arrow
> Glaive
> ...


Gauntlets/Greaves of which I would use.


----------



## Rob (May 26, 2014)

Hey guys, what's up. 

Haven't posted here in a while, actually. 

Can someone link me to the Turnip Farmer Translations? I'm a few chapters behind. (The last thing I saw was the big guy from the Fire Dragons (Goumou?) retreat, after clashing with Shin)


----------



## Akatora (May 26, 2014)

myself, I'd pick bow and arrows, but fictional self would pick the glaive.




RobLucciRapes said:


> Hey guys, what's up.
> 
> Haven't posted here in a while, actually.
> 
> Can someone link me to the Turnip Farmer Translations? I'm a few chapters behind. (The last thing I saw was the big guy from the Fire Dragons (Goumou?) retreat, after clashing with Shin)




google turnip farmer...


----------



## Rob (May 26, 2014)

Eh 

I can't find the correct link. 

My buddy KIG (You know that ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".)?) always gives me a good link with all the chapters. TF translations. I'm thinking Botato 

Edit: Ah, found it, found it.


----------



## Zeit (May 26, 2014)

The strongest Generals all use glaives, there really shouldn't be any other choice. Well at least until they introduce someone wielding a two-handed sword like Gutt's Dragonslayer.


----------



## Rob (May 26, 2014)

On 387 right now. 

I like the pale-faced guy that Kyoukai captured. 

I always read manga with anime-voices (Like... in my head) 

I read Kyoukai as Kurapika from HxH, Shin as Ichigo from Bleach (since I know that one for sure) and Illumi from HxH for the Pale-faced guy. It fits so well


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 26, 2014)

389 is out on Mangajoy at least, the quality was actually pretty decent.


----------



## Akatora (May 26, 2014)

Zeit said:


> The strongest Generals all use glaives, there really shouldn't be any other choice. Well at least until they introduce someone wielding a two-handed sword like Gutt's Dragonslayer.



How often have we seen Gutt's use the dragonslayer mounted?

To be on the front lines on foot really limit your options in Kingdom(Unless you're Hougen)


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 26, 2014)

Zeit said:


> The strongest Generals all use glaives, there really shouldn't be any other choice. Well at least until they introduce someone wielding a two-handed sword like Gutt's Dragonslayer.



I'd turn your general into a porcupine before he knew what hit him.
Or just a plain headshot.


----------



## Muk (May 26, 2014)

Akatora said:


> How often have we seen Gutt's use the dragonslayer mounted?
> 
> To be on the front lines on foot really limit your options in Kingdom(Unless you're Hougen)



Guts sword is too heavy and unwieldy to be used in historic combat


----------



## Ether (May 26, 2014)

*Finally Caught Up with Kingdom*

Finally, I caught up with the latest translated chapters of Kingdom
So the Gyoku Hou unit pretty much massacred the first enemy wave during the first day.

And today, they're finally getting competition from Shihaku. I can't wait to see this guy getting angry.

Kanjou is a pretty experienced soldier to anticipate an attack by Shihaku and circle around to counter him.



To be on the front lines on foot really limit your options in Kingdom(Unless you're Hougen)
Quote:

How often have we seen Gutt's use the dragonslayer mounted?
To be on the front lines on foot really limit your options in Kingdom(Unless you're Hougen)

Answer: Guts wouldn't even need a horse. He can be his own 1000 man commander since he packs way more firepower than heavy infantry. He can pretty much speedblitz
(super sonic reaction and lightning timing feats)any Kingdom character and slice any of them to bits. It would be even more of a stomp with the Berserker armor. 
His additional arsenal(arrows, cannon, mini-explosives, throwing knives) would also help in a 
tightly enclosed fight. But yeah, the sword is impractical for combat since it's just too heavy for the horse to handle.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 26, 2014)

I picked the spear.

Always been a fan of it since I first saw Ouhon use it.


----------



## The End (May 27, 2014)

I didn't see an option for dual glaives on the list so I just went with glaive+shield.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (May 27, 2014)

Also Ouhon said he will take him out with three strikes.
Even if I'm generous and count only the special techniques, he already used two.
Ouhon confirmed for arrogant bullshiter.


----------



## Katou (May 27, 2014)

Does a Bow and Swords exist. . 

of course the Swords are the Arrows


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 28, 2014)

I think Kingdom is on break this week.

Just when we caught up we get a break


----------



## Morglay (May 28, 2014)

Axe. There is no other option that would look anywhere near as gangsta.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 28, 2014)

Axe becuase i can handle an axe and i can throw it and it will kill you.


----------



## The Faceless Man (May 28, 2014)

Ouhon is amzing yo.  Hope to see more shit.


----------



## Kanki (May 28, 2014)

I'm back in a week folks!

Lots of new faces. Good to see. Though....the pace needs to quicken the hell up here!


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 28, 2014)

Hurry back KIG


----------



## Kanki (May 29, 2014)

Just read two chapters - dayumm, Shihaku looks a beast!

The new guy in Ouhon's unit seems interesting. Looks like the Ousen/Ouhon relationship will be pretty important.

Great last chapter anyway. Hopefully Shihaku does well.


----------



## Saishin (May 29, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 











Well all of us knew that  but what are Kyokai's feelings toward Shin? I want to know! this is gonna be a love triangle


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 29, 2014)

Is KIG back or not?

Anyway there won't be Kingdom chapter this week. I wonder does Hara take breaks often, I hope not.


----------



## Lord Genome (May 29, 2014)

Im pretty sure these wait by the week will be death by a thousand needles kinda thing


----------



## B Rabbit (May 29, 2014)

Yeah pretty much, we're spoiled by 300+ chapters out.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 29, 2014)

Apparently the two Zhao officials we're introduced to during Seikyo's 2nd rebellion are actual historical figures who play an important part. The same goes for the old Qi official.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 30, 2014)

1 of them was Shoubunkun's spy, guess he will come useful in the future when Qin needs inside information from Zhao.

I really wish we could see more of Ouhon vs Shihaku this week, I really wonder how well will Ouhon do against him.


----------



## Edward Newgate (May 31, 2014)

And pedo.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 31, 2014)

I didn't notice it until I read the TF chapter, but it looks like Shihaku summoned all of his reserves:



Each unit looks like a 5k unit (making it 20k in total). Let's assume, best-case scenario for Ouhon, that each unit is 2.5k, making it 10k total, 5k reserves from each reserve outpost - that means Ouhon might be outmatched 3-4 fold. If this doesn't paint Shihaku death flags, than I don't know what else possibly could. The only other scenario I could imagine is Ouhon fleeing midway with massive casualties.


----------



## Sphyer (May 31, 2014)

Oh cool, now we actually are caught up to the raws


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 31, 2014)

Sphyer said:


> Oh cool, now we actually are caught up to the raws



First of all, Sphyer, your set - HELLA DISTRACTING!!!

Nah, we'll always be a week behind because TF lacks a dedicated raw provider. We might not even get a TF chapter next week.

Now that we've caught up, I'm completely done with MJ. I don't mind being a week behind, but this doesn't fare well for this section considering we'll be divided into MJ, TF, and raw readers. I know some people are voiding this section because of those who read MJ.

*shrugs*


----------



## JiraiyaForever (May 31, 2014)

Moe said:


> First of all, Sphyer, your set - HELLA DISTRACTING!!!
> 
> Nah, we'll always be a week behind because TF lacks a dedicated raw provider. We might not even get a TF chapter next week.
> 
> ...



I'm off the MJ train as well. TF just changes the world


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 31, 2014)

I wonder what will it take to make Ouhon retreat, hes way too proud to just leave it like that and do what Kanjou originally suggested. 

There's no way Ouhon should be able to win this one and Kanjou already retreated, I really wish we would of gotten answers this week.


----------



## Sphyer (May 31, 2014)

Moe said:


> First of all, Sphyer, your set - HELLA DISTRACTING!!!
> 
> Nah, we'll always be a week behind because TF lacks a dedicated raw provider. We might not even get a TF chapter next week.
> 
> ...



The cherries are mesmerizing for you I see 

As for then being a week behind still, I dunno. I just assumed so since I'd figure the japanese raw for the next chapter would come out next saturday since the manga was on break this week but who knows, perhaps not 

As for me, I'll read the raws then read whatever scans comes out until TF comes to get the best reading experience. I mean, it's one a one chapter difference so it shouldn't really harm discussion much.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 31, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I wonder what will it take to make Ouhon retreat, hes way too proud to just leave it like that and do what Kanjou originally suggested.
> 
> There's no way Ouhon should be able to win this one and Kanjou already retreated, I really wish we would of gotten answers this week.



I don't think Ouhon would ever let his pride get the best of him.


----------



## lazorwalrus (May 31, 2014)

Dunno, its more his personal feelings that might come out to play. 

Kanjou said that they should retreat and that's what his father would do, but Ouhon pretty much said ''Fuck that, I can do this''. It felt like he wants to prove so badly that he can do things that his father wouldn't. 
If he is forced to retreat it will hurt his ego quite badly.


----------



## Zhen Chan (May 31, 2014)

Time for ou hon to get his dick shoved in the dirt


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (May 31, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> Time for ou hon to get his dick shoved in the dirt



You just make this up...lol


----------



## Kanki (Jun 1, 2014)

@Lazor
Nah I'm back on Thursday. Just at my nans atm.

Ouhon's going to be put in his place, IMO. I'm thinking more and more this will be a total defeat for Qin, with the future matches set up for the later Wei invasion.

Wei's defense looks pretty good here - shame Qin don't have Kanki. He'd be the best general in this scenario, IMO.


----------



## Katou (Jun 1, 2014)

Picked Axe. . .Axes are cool  

why no Dual axe?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 1, 2014)

Wallachia said:


> Picked Axe. . .Axes are cool
> 
> why no Dual axe?



Cuz we haven't seen its use yet.


----------



## Katou (Jun 1, 2014)

Moe said:


> Cuz we haven't seen its use yet.



2~handed Axe would be cool too


----------



## Ether (Jun 1, 2014)

So we're completely caught up with the raws?

Ah well, anyway the latest chapter showed Ouhon's arrogance. 

I still wonder though how will he manage to pull through with his plan at this rate? Reserve armies are on all flanks of his whole army and Kanjou has pulled out. If he fails in killing Shihaku, the plan is terminated that's for sure. 

Let's see who's the better spear holder.


----------



## Katou (Jun 1, 2014)

How would someone like him beat a Veteran  

he's Praising himself too much 
He'll probably end up getting almost killed and getting saved by his people for him to escape


----------



## Ether (Jun 1, 2014)

Ouhon would most likely lose the encounter unless P.I.S. takes over the fight(very very unlikely).
Who knows he might end up dead 
But he probably will be defeated and his men will save his butt and get him out of there. He'll probably lose the majority of his army though


----------



## Butcher (Jun 1, 2014)

On chapter 239 now.

Mugou might be my favorite character of the series now.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 2, 2014)

I wonder will Hara ever give us match ups where the opponents do not have the same weapon, would be cool to see two people from around the same skill level fighting each other, but with different kind of weapons.

Tou did it vs Rinbukun, but Rinbukun was so much weaker than him that it wasn't really that interesting.
Something like Tou vs Gaimou could be beast. Or Moubu vs Houken.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 2, 2014)

I'm interested as to how a spear would fare against the glaive and mace. We've seen Shihaku blow holes in people and at a speed I would find someone like Moubu would have a hard time keeping up.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 2, 2014)

Spear is the new hotness


----------



## Orca (Jun 3, 2014)

Finally caught up. Took me two weeks. At this point Kingdom is easily my favourite manga that I've read(Not that I've read that many).

My favourite fights would have to be
1. Moubu vs Kanmei: Manliest fight ever. I don't know what it is about this fight. But my manliness was having orgasms all over the place.
2. Ouki vs Houken
3. Shin vs Rinko

Favourite Characters(This is extremely hard since I like almost every character lol)

1. Ouki and Moubu(Can't decide between the two. Lips of wisdom and biceps of manliness)

I tried to make a list but cant decide after the first two 

If I had one complaint about Kingdom, it'd have to be the main character Shin. I don't dislike shin but I think the story would have been a lot more engaging and exciting if we had a more mature and manly main character. Kinda like Guts.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

I agree with you on Shin, he has his moments, but sometimes when the author just tries to portray him stupid and childish for comedic reasons it kinda pisses me off. 

But Shin still has room to grow, I would be surprised if he didn't change quite a bit as the story goes even further forward.


----------



## Orca (Jun 3, 2014)

Yeah stupid and childish stunts should be left for side characters like bihei for example. Kingdom has so many great characters that'd you'd assume that the mangaka would put more thought into the Main character. But shin is so simple, straightforward and idiotic that he instantly gets overshadowed by other characters like Ouki.

Though I agree Shin has gotten a lot better now. I can only hope he gets even better.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 3, 2014)

Moe said:


> I'm interested as to how a spear would fare against the glaive and mace. We've seen Shihaku blow holes in people and at a speed I would find someone like Moubu would have a hard time keeping up.



Interesting point, actually. Perhaps not Moubu because I think he's pretty damn skillful with the mace. But someone like Kanmei who was actually physically stronger than Moubu could definitely lose to someone like Shihaku, if his hype is justified.

I agree with whoever wanted contrasting fights. It would be epic if Hara made it clear that certain weapons held avantages over each other.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I agree with you on Shin, he has his moments, but sometimes when the author just tries to portray him stupid and childish for comedic reasons it kinda pisses me off.
> 
> But Shin still has room to grow, I would be surprised if he didn't change quite a bit as the story goes even further forward.



I could handle it for comedic reasons but when he started heavily blaming Kyoukai for Ten's kidnapping that was utterly disappointing for me.  I get it, it was a situation when his emotions got the better of him but still.. He is soon to be general damn it. He can't just randomly start putting all the blame on his lietant for something which was clearly not her fault. You are the captain, if something gets fucked up, take responsibility.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 3, 2014)

Don't understand this immature Shin stuff. After Guts he's the most mature MC of the series I read.

Plus, it might take a crushing defeat for him to grow up properly. He's still like, what 21?


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

Let Shin give a rest . . . 
he's too young anyway. . 
already an impressive feat to match Powerhouse generals already


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

MightiestRooster said:


> I could handle it for comedic reasons but when he started heavily blaming Kyoukai for Ten's kidnapping that was utterly disappointing for me.  I get it, it was a situation when his emotions got the better of him but still.. He is soon to be general damn it. He can't just randomly start putting all the blame on his lietant for something which was clearly not her fault. You are the captain, if something gets fucked up, take responsibility.



Agreed, Shin still has to grow up a lot. Hes acting completely based on his emotions most of the time and lets them get the better of him. 

He can't afford to be this childish anymore. I mean even his unit by all means should kind of question their leader at this point. Sure hes strong and all, but hes still not really shown any capabilities of a good commander. 
Most of the people in the Hi Shin unit are adults and how will they react when they see their captain throwing a fit out of frustration like he did to Kyoukai.
Sure Shin isn't exactly immature in the way that most shonen MC's are, but in Kingdom you can just compare him to everyone else in his age group and see how different he is.

Ouhon and Mouten are honestly miles ahead of Shin in everything but strength.


----------



## Orca (Jun 3, 2014)

Which characters do you guys think Karin would do if she is impressed by their capabilities as a general,politician or strategist etc


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

I'd say she'll try to fuck Shin . .


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

Pretty sure Karin would do it with just about anyone. I mean she was willing to give it to Kouyoku as long as Kouyoku did good on the battlefield.


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

Shin will surely impress her  . .
due to his surprising feats despite being Young


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

I'd say Kanki and Ousen have the best chances of impressing her. Karin likes the smart dudes not the brutes.

Shin doesn't have that much chances with Karin tbh.


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

she already gave me the impression that she's a Cougar 
but i guess Kanki will probably make her drop her pantsu just by witnessing his brilliance


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2014)

Karin seems pretty desperate to me.
She looks like she is just seeking an excuse to reward someone.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

Well she showed most interest towards Riboku and his master plans. And she seemingly disliked Rinbukun and Kanmei heavily for being such brutes.

When Shin grows up hes probably not going to be her type.


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

then someone like Gouhoumei would do her . . 
and Ten's Colleague . . i forgot his name


----------



## Orca (Jun 3, 2014)

Yeah I think she likes the intelligent types. She'd probably be all over Kanki and Shoheikun. Not sure if she'd like Ousen's warfare style though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

Ousen might piss her off actually. Karin is all about diversions and traps, but Ousen would just see through them and frustrate her to no end.


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

so She's like : 

Strategical >>>> Instinctual


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 3, 2014)

So many new people.

Cant wait to see how strong is Ouhon now against that wei dragon.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2014)

Either way, Ouhon's prediction off killing him within three strikes, will be completely demolished.


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

Why is he so confident that he's above Legendary Generals . . 
to be honest I'm starting to dislike his Cocky~ness


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 3, 2014)

Yeah, its annoying.
He even treats a legendary idol to all spear users, like a complete fodder.
You would think he would at least show some respect for a master in his own combat style.
But nope, three strikes hurr durr.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

I think Hara made the difference between Ouhon's and Shihaku's skills pretty clear when he showed the difference in the damage that they are able to cause. 

Or its just their difference in strength and they might not actually be that far apart in fighting skills. 
Shihaku should defeat Ouhon with mid difficulty.


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

three strikes my ass . .
overconfidence. . 
just because he was training day and night doesn't mean he's going to get the Experience enough to be a true General 

he's 100 battles too early for him to be overconfident


----------



## Katou (Jun 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I think Hara made the difference between Ouhon's and Shihaku's skills pretty clear when he showed the difference in the damage that they are able to cause.
> 
> Or its just their difference in strength and they might not actually be that far apart in fighting skills.
> Shihaku should defeat Ouhon with mid difficulty.



Ouhon may have grazed him in the last attack . .but it was probably just Shihaku testing his Spear skills


----------



## convict (Jun 3, 2014)

Remember how Shin seemed to be doing well at the end of the chapter in which he began his fight with the big man? I expect a similar result overall.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 3, 2014)

Luffee said:


> If I had one complaint about Kingdom, it'd have to be the main character Shin. I don't dislike shin but I think the story would have been a lot more engaging and exciting if we had a more mature and manly main character. Kinda like Guts.





lazorwalrus said:


> I agree with you on Shin, he has his moments, but sometimes when the author just tries to portray him stupid and childish for comedic reasons it kinda pisses me off.
> 
> But Shin still has room to grow, I would be surprised if he didn't change quite a bit as the story goes even further forward.





Luffee said:


> Yeah stupid and childish stunts should be left for side characters like bihei for example. Kingdom has so many great characters that'd you'd assume that the mangaka would put more thought into the Main character. But shin is so simple, straightforward and idiotic that he instantly gets overshadowed by other characters like Ouki.
> 
> Though I agree Shin has gotten a lot better now. I can only hope he gets even better.



I completely disagree. First of all, 95% of the cast is like Guts - the mature, serious, driven type. Before the TS, it was just Ten, Shin, Mouten, Bihei, Tou, and Ouki that provided humour and silliness. Now it is just Tou and Bihei. Ouki has died, we haven't seen Mouten, Ten got serious, and Shin has become quite mature and serious. Shin served as an obvious contrast. The humour and siliness was to allow us to feel more emphatic and relate to Shin considering he is around our age. Almost everyone in Kingdom has a serious face, so to see Shin in a different mood was a welcoming change. His stupidity, having argued against it as well, was meant to show us his growth, but Hara has kinda been a little slow with the progression. Now I don't know what TS Shin is capable of. I am willing to excuse his stupidity before if Hara shows us some legit gains he's made. We don't really know how TS Shin has matured so far. From what I've seen, he's become quite serious and less distracting (which is a good thing because it means he has matured, but to have him like Ouhon from the get-go would have been boring to watch. 



Kanki Is God said:


> Interesting point, actually. Perhaps not Moubu because I think he's pretty damn skillful with the mace. But someone like Kanmei who was actually physically stronger than Moubu could definitely lose to someone like Shihaku, if his hype is justified.
> 
> I agree with whoever wanted contrasting fights. It would be epic if Hara made it clear that certain weapons held avantages over each other.



Welcome back, KIG!!! Yea, we've seen the spear reflect a full swing from Shin and a sword block a mace.



MightiestRooster said:


> I could handle it for comedic reasons but when he started heavily blaming Kyoukai for Ten's kidnapping that was utterly disappointing for me.  I get it, it was a situation when his emotions got the better of him but still.. He is soon to be general damn it. He can't just randomly start putting all the blame on his lietant for something which was clearly not her fault. You are the captain, if something gets fucked up, take responsibility.






lazorwalrus said:


> Agreed, Shin still has to grow up a lot. Hes acting completely based on his emotions most of the time and lets them get the better of him.
> 
> He can't afford to be this childish anymore. I mean even his unit by all means should kind of question their leader at this point. Sure hes strong and all, but hes still not really shown any capabilities of a good commander.
> Most of the people in the Hi Shin unit are adults and how will they react when they see their captain throwing a fit out of frustration like he did to Kyoukai.
> ...




You have to excuse him for it because this was the first experience with it. He's never had to deal with it before. 

I'm just waiting for Shin to take charge against Gaimou. I hope Hara uses this moment to close the gap.

I actually enjoy Ouhon's cockiness, it is kinda refreshing...


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 3, 2014)

I just really dislike the way Shin's stupidity and incompetency is often played as comedic. I have nothing against him doing something comedic, but I just get frustrated to see Hara make Shin's stupidity as something to laugh at when its really not that funny.

Like when they were losing battles due to Shin failing to come up with plans and that was seemingly supposed to be funny, but I personally thought that was probably the worst moment of the series. Or lately when Shin was in the war council and was completely and utterly clueless and that was obviously supposed to be comedic, but I certainly wasn't laughing.

There needs to be a sense of seriousness when its related to their battles and war councils etc, the GREATEST general under the heavens cannot be a clown while everyone else around him is actually being quite serious. 

Luckily there is still plenty of time for Shin to develop in this aspect, but I'll be seriously disappointed if he stays like he is now for the rest of the series. I really liked his serious talk with Shoubunkun in the siege of Sai and in the preparations for it and I wish Shin would be like that more.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I just really dislike the way Shin's stupidity and incompetency is often played as comedic. I have nothing against him doing something comedic, but I just get frustrated to see Hara make Shin's stupidity as something to laugh at when its really not that funny.
> 
> Like when they were losing battles due to Shin failing to come up with plans and that was seemingly supposed to be funny, but I personally thought that was probably the worst moment of the series. Or lately when Shin was in the war council and was completely and utterly clueless and that was obviously supposed to be comedic, but I certainly wasn't laughing.
> 
> ...



This, I am on the same page  as you. I like the new Shin's maturity and more mellow and serious personality - now we just have to see his instinctive abilities in action against Gaimou. let's hope Hara delivers.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 3, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I just really dislike the way Shin's stupidity and incompetency is often played as comedic. I have nothing against him doing something comedic, but I just get frustrated to see Hara make Shin's stupidity as something to laugh at when its really not that funny.
> 
> Like when they were losing battles due to Shin failing to come up with plans and that was seemingly supposed to be funny, but I personally thought that was probably the worst moment of the series. Or lately when Shin was in the war council and was completely and utterly clueless and that was obviously supposed to be comedic, but I certainly wasn't laughing.
> 
> ...



Doesn't get much better then this. +1


----------



## Shitbitch (Jun 3, 2014)

Shin 10/10 char. Past and present. He was the reason I kept reading during the first Arc. I am very happy because of that.


You folks are too harsh. But oh well, that's something I see people doing with EVERY main character. Even with Guts form Berserk. 
IF you people want to complain about something, then it should be the fact that Shin was way too over-powered in the first Arc, like how he defeated Sanji for example... Or how he was the only one who could climb that wall while all the other Mountain Warriors couldn't... Still, it didn't bothered me. I was even cheering for the lad.


To be honest, from all the manga I've read so far, Shin is one of those characters that I care the most for. Together with Naruto, but that's pure of nostalgia.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 3, 2014)

What do you guys think Ousen's right hand man's purpose is? What do you think Ousen sent him to do? I have a few ideas.


----------



## Goobalith (Jun 3, 2014)

I'd say Ousens using him to keep tabs on his son, thus ensuring that Ouhon will always be the unwitting pawn in his schemes and master plan.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 3, 2014)

I hope Ousen doesn't think Ouhon will want anything to do with him. I'd doubt he'd ever serve him willingly.


----------



## Goobalith (Jun 3, 2014)

Moe said:


> I hope Ousen doesn't think Ouhon will want anything to do with him. I'd doubt he'd ever serve him willingly.



Yes if anything, Ouhon would want to do the opposite of Ousen's wishes just to spite his dad. Not that Ousen cares of course, he's far too cold-hearted and driven by his ambitions. If anything, Ousen will just come up with a way to use Ouhon's spite and disdain in a way that suits his own plans.


----------



## Orca (Jun 4, 2014)

Has anyone used a War Hammer in Kingdom so far?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Has anyone used a War Hammer in Kingdom so far?



Nope. I don't know if they used war hammers during those times.


----------



## Orca (Jun 4, 2014)

It'd be cool to see one anyway. Would fit perfectly with Gaimo actually.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 4, 2014)

Moe said:


> What do you guys think Ousen's right hand man's purpose is? What do you think Ousen sent him to do? I have a few ideas.


If I had to guess, maybe to keep an eye on his son? The two of them might come into conflict later on if Ousen is planning something like a coup. What do you think?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 4, 2014)

Ousen just lacks the popularity and the fame to become anything really big in Qin tbh. Hes not even that well known as a general, to the public hes pretty much in the shadows.

If hes going to make his own kingdom, I highly doubt it will be Qin. More likely he will recruit himself a large army of his own and try to create his own separate kingdom with his own people.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Ousen just lacks the popularity and the fame to become anything really big in Qin tbh. Hes not even that well known as a general, to the public hes pretty much in the shadows.
> 
> If hes going to make his own kingdom, I highly doubt it will be Qin. More likely he will recruit himself a large army of his own and try to create his own separate kingdom with his own people.



The thing is the people don't actually care who their King is (most don't even know who it is). Remember that scene where Ryo and Sei were trying to do things, like build dams for flood control, to win the favour and support of the region or family. As long as people are content, then the individual who is King has no bearing. 

What Ousen does have working for him is:

1. His family name. The Ou name carries massive weight in Qin considering two of them were a G6.
2. The massive wealth he has access to as the head of the family.
3. His _personal_ army.

Ousen seems to be a very efficient, practical, intelligent, and resourceful. If he were to take over from Sei, he could easily fulfill all of Sei and Ryo's roles. The citizens of Qin wouldn't even notice. In the event they did find out the Ou family, their reaction might depend on certain things, such as whether the Ou family usurped the throne or whether they are told it was abdicated. Ousen could easily manipulate the information as to make it seen as if Sei abdicated the throne or he had to take it with force because of Sei's negligence and/or abuse, because of his name, he can actually get away with it. Now the issue would be the what to do with the officials. Some would run straight towards Ousen's faction, but what about the rest? What about the people in Sei's faction or Ryo's faction? 

This is where Ousen's personal army comes into play. There is a reason why the G6 existed, why they all had an army at their disposal. It was because they were trusted. Most of these generals seem to have their own, small, personal army that consists of soldiers they've fought with and the state basically assigns them soldiers. Duke had a few thousand. Ouki prolly has the 2nd largest personal army, for obvious reasons, but even then, it prolly wasn't that large. The difference here is that Ousen is building his own personal army. An army that answers to no one but him, irrespective of what state they fought with before. This doesn't include the men he can buy, or the men who live on his land. The only individual with an established PERSONAL army, at this point (and by far the largest) would be Ryo. In warfare, Sei would prolly be defeated by the resources of Ryo. Then you have to consider that his army (those both loyal to the families that serve him or those who he has bought) is led by Moubu as the sword and shield and Shouheikun as the helmet. Both monsters that Ousen would give immense trouble. Now, I don't know how large Ousen's army is. He's been a shadow. Hara has been real hush hush about Ousen. We have no idea how large his personal army is. He could very well be able to take Ryo and Sei (but I highly doubt that), but if he were to do that, he would lose the support of the citizens because it was clearly an usurpation. So clearly Ousen is looking to establish enough power to completely crush Ryo and Sei without even a fight. I'd think it would be silly for a man so driven by ambition to just want to carve out a piece of state for himself and declare himself King. I'd be disappointed if he didn't want Qin.

My two cents.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 4, 2014)

Its not that simple, you can't just overthrow the king like that. Why do you think Ryofui has spent all this time planning and scheming? He has to get himself the support of the people and make himself look like the savior of the kingdom. Not every common guy knows who the king is, but the several thousand people who live in the palace and the other possibly hundreds of thousands of people who live in the capital do know who the king is. So you can't just declare yourself the king, you need the mob and the court on your side.

I mean Ousen is really unknown, not even Ryofui really knew about him. He has absolutely no one backing him up in Qin, expect his own family that we don't even know that much about. Ousen is not even a political figure, he has no faction in the court. And the Ou family are a noble family, they still don't hold a candle to the ROYAL family. And the Ou family is not the only powerful noble family out there in Qin.

To take over Qin, he needs a MASSIVE personal army that he would need to hide from the state itself, I highly doubt that Ryo or Sei would allow a single general to get himself a huge army that could possibly threaten the state itself. 
Sei will soon be an adult and assume the full power that being a king grants him, but before that Ryo has to make his move or he loses. Ousen is too late for this party, he will not go against Ryo.

And to challenge Sei when he literally has everything in Qin on his side will be extremely hard.

I don't see how could Ousen possibly take over Qin at this point, making his own Kingdom entirely seems more likely.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Its not that simple, you can't just overthrow the king like that. Why do you think Ryofui has spent all this time planning and scheming? He has to get himself the support of the people and make himself look like the savior of the kingdom. Not every common guy knows who the king is, but the several thousand people who live in the palace and the other possibly hundreds of thousands of people who live in the capital do know who the king is. So you can't just declare yourself the king, you need the mob and the court on your side.



What do you define as the "people". The citizens of Qin or the officials and their family? I know that he can't just overthrow the King like that, but the point I was making is that the people don't give a shit or don't know enough to give shit, and that is the majority of Qin. The only that matter in this instance are the officials and their family. Ryo doesn't need to get the support of the people, just the officials. With the officials, come the support of the people. Also, the usurper has to do, what every usurper usually does, and that is kill off everyone important and replace them with his family members and supporters. The only way he can do that is with his own army.



> To take over Qin, he needs a MASSIVE personal army that he would need to hide from the state itself, I highly doubt that Ryo or Sei would allow a single general to get himself a huge army that could possibly threaten the state itself.
> Sei will soon be an adult and assume the full power that being a king grants him, but before that Ryo has to make his move or he loses. Ousen is too late for this party, he will not go against Ryo.



Which is something I am assuming he is trying to build at the moment.



> I don't see how could Ousen possibly take over Qin at this point, making his own Kingdom entirely seems more likely.



That would be too boring.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 4, 2014)

The people is the noble families and the people who live in and close to the capital, that is probably around at least a million people, possibly more. The big families like the Ou family and several other families are very important to have on your side. 

I guess if someone wanted to they could wipe out everyone that's against them, but that's very likely to unite everyone against the usurper which probably wouldn't work out well for the usurper and if other states sensed a weakness like this they would instantly attack.

When it comes to building large personal armies, I highly doubt that Ousen will be allowed to do it. 
There has to be a limit to how much a single person can have his own personal troops that are loyal to him only or else we would have a bunch of feudal lords with their own armies fighting against each other within states. No general in the series has had a huge personal army thus far, I'm pretty sure there is a clear limit, something like 10k seems likely.

I'm sure Ousen can do something in secret, but to recruit an army to himself that could challenge Sei when hes the KING has to be really damn big and impossible to keep a secret. Sei wont just let a general under him create himself a 300k strong army, especially if this general is rumored to have ambitions to become king.

I think Ousen might betray Qin and use help from someone else to destroy Qin and create his own kingdom or he will somehow manage to keep his own huge army a secret and get enough loyal men to challenge Sei.
And it wouldn't be boring if he wanted to create his own kingdom anyway, Sei would never let that happen and they would have to clash anyway.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> The people is the noble families and the people who live in and close to the capital, that is probably around _at least a million people, possibly more._ The big families like the Ou family and several other families are very important to have on your side.



I'd have guessed a few 100k. 



> I guess if someone wanted to they could wipe out everyone that's against them, but that's very likely to unite everyone against the usurper which probably wouldn't work out well for the usurper and if other states sensed a weakness like this they would instantly attack.



Depends. You can have many of them jump factions. Also, how many of them, in the Kingdomverse would have enough of soldiers or notable generals to contribute to a resistance.



> When it comes to building large personal armies, I highly doubt that Ousen will be allowed to do it.



They'd have to be crazy.



> There has to be a limit to how much a single person can have his own personal troops that are loyal to him only or else we would have a bunch of feudal lords with their own armies fighting against each other within states. No general in the series has had a huge personal army thus far, I'm pretty sure there is a clear limit, something like 10k seems likely.
> 
> I'm sure Ousen can do something in secret, but to recruit an army to himself that could challenge Sei when hes the KING has to be really damn big and impossible to keep a secret. Sei wont just let a general under him create himself a 300k strong army, especially if this general is rumored to have ambitions to become king.



Yea, so it will be really interesting to see how all of this would unfold in Kingdom. I cannot wait.



> I think Ousen might betray Qin and use help from someone else to destroy Qin and create his own kingdom or he will somehow manage to keep his own huge army a secret and get enough loyal men to challenge Sei.
> And it wouldn't be boring if he wanted to create his own kingdom anyway, Sei would never let that happen and they would have to clash anyway.



It's like cutting yourself a small corner in a room. I want Hara to go big or go home in this instance. I would find it to be very anti-climatic if I found out Ousen just carved himself a piece of land form Chu and made himself a chair with a make belief crown.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 4, 2014)

This is China, there's a lot of people around. If I remember correctly the population was something like around 50 million people in China as a whole back then. The capital + largest families of the second largest state should have around 1 million people at least living there and the close regions. 
The large families own their own large pieces of land and have their own cities too



> It's like cutting yourself a small corner in a room. I want Hara to go big or go home in this instance. I would find it to be very anti-climatic if I found out Ousen just carved himself a piece of land form Chu and made himself a chair with a make belief crown.



Yeah, that seems unlikely. Sei wouldn't let it happen anyway so Ousen would have to fight anyway.
I can see him allying himself with some other state to wipe out Qin and then make his own kingdom.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> This is China, there's a lot of people around. If I remember correctly the population was something like around 50 million people in China as a whole back then. The capital + largest families of the second largest state should have around 1 million people at least living there and the close regions.
> The large families own their own large pieces of land and have their own cities too
> 
> 
> ...



WOW. I'd have pegged the population to be A LOT less. I unno, I find the dynamics between Ryo and Sei to be a lot of fun to watch. I hope it will be just as interesting when Ousen gets involved.

After this war, I'm guessing we'll go back to the political strife. Do you believe Shouheikun will jump ship before or after Ryo is defeated?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 4, 2014)

I think Shouheikun is already at a point where he wont bother helping Ryo, he already betrayed him in a way.
Ryo can't trust Shouheikun at all anymore. 

He might even already be on Sei's side in a way, what Sei did at Sai seemingly impressed Shouheikun a lot and Shouheikun even sent his own men to help Sei out. 

I hope this Wei arc wont drag and that we'll get the Sei vs Ryo arc that I hope to be at least 40 chapters.

200 mil eh? Not sure where you get that number from lol. Maybe the entire world population was around that big.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

I am not a ^ (use bro) said:


> Know your history. During that time China was even bigger in size then now, with a population of almost 200 million.



Why would/should I know about Chinese history, Ernie?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I think Shouheikun is already at a point where he wont bother helping Ryo, he already betrayed him in a way.
> Ryo can't trust Shouheikun at all anymore.
> 
> He might even already be on Sei's side in a way, what Sei did at Sai seemingly impressed Shouheikun a lot and Shouheikun even sent his own men to help Sei out.
> ...



I don't know if that was enough for Ryo to fully stop trusting Shou. How do you think Shou will go about this? My guess is that when the fighting begins, Shou won't lead Ryo's army (and I hope to God there is an actual battle). With Shou, I can imagine Moubu following. As I've said before, Moubu's best bet at reviving the G6 will be under Sei, not Ryo. War was prolly bad for business back then.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 4, 2014)

Well....I don't know how Hara will handle it, but this is one of the topics that I can't really discuss further as I already know some key details.
Think you might need to wait for KIG to talk about this one.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 4, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well....I don't know how Hara will handle it, but this is one of the topics that I can't really discuss further as I already know some key details.
> Think you might need to wait for KIG to talk about this one.



I forget that sometimes...


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Shihaku seems pretty awesome. I so hope he'll beat Ouhon. It's early days, but I do prefer him to Gaimou right now. I really don't see how Gaimou/Shihaku were on the same side 14 years ago, though. They're just so different.

Kanjou is really interesting too. Pretty cool how Ouhon now has a 'special' commander in his ranks a la Kyoukai. Wonder how strong he really is? The fact that Ouhon now seems to have 2 clearly identifiable commanders makes me think Mouten might gain a new one too (possibly his brother?).

Can't wait until the next chapter. Ousen's interference kind of makes Ouhon's character, for me. Before then I only really saw him as a typical manga-rival, but now he has his own sub plot with Ousen/Kanjou, I've become MUCH more interested. 

So what day is actual manga day on Mangajoy and TF? I just read a bunch on TF, so I'll just stick to that if there's only a day or two between the two releases, unless everyone else sticks to MJ I guess.

I never really gave my thoughts on the hostage exchange...tbh I didn't care that much for it. I was hoping to see some epic stuff from Kyoukai in a rescue attempt, but ah well.

Can't wait for the next chapters.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh the joy of having internet at my house again <3.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

MJ releases a week earlier than TF does, so I'm probably gonna read MJ if they keep it up. 

TF wont release a chapter this week since Kingdom was on break last week.

Welcome back KIG.

Don't think Mouten needs his brother in his unit tbh, hes already a very capable strategist on his own. Mouki is more likely to join Moubu like he said back in the Zhao war.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 5, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Don't think Mouten needs his brother in his unit tbh, hes already a very capable strategist on his own. Mouki is more likely to join Moubu like he said back in the Zhao war.




Moubu already ignores all strategists, unless its Shouheikun.
Mouki is in for a lot of suffering, if he thinks Moubu will listen to him.
Especially since its his youngest son, trying to tell him what to do in battle.


----------



## Orca (Jun 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Moubu already ignores all strategists, unless its Shouheikun.
> Mouki is in for a lot of suffering, if he thinks Moubu will listen to him.
> Especially since its his youngest son, trying to tell him what to do in battle.



That's the point. There wouldn't be much story or character progression if mouki just said "Hey I want to join you dad" and Moubu said "Ok". It'll be part of Mouki's character progression to prove himself worthy to his father.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

Moubu too has grown as a character, I'm sure by now he understands that strength isn't the only way to do things.
He does kind of need someone like Mouki to be there with him. Without Shouheikun and the strategies he told Moubu to use, Moubu would have lost to Kanmei.

If Mouki is going to join some unit, its going to be his fathers. Mouten might work under him as well.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Moubu would definitely listen to Mouki, as long as it was understood that all tactics must be aimed at setting up a 1 on 1 fight for Moubu. He wouldn't accept any other form of strategy.

Those two working together would be great for Moubu's growth. Especially if at some point he could have a decision to make - adopt Mouki's strategy, or go with his own idea, fight the opposing General and leave Mouki exposed. 

I'm convinced one of Moubu, Mouki and Mouten will die. In fact 2 or maybe even all of them might. Mouki could be used purely to develop the other 2, Mouten's death would be tragic in itself as well as giving development for Moubu, and there's no end of things that could happen with Moubu's character. I'm still unsure how Shin and prime Moubu can co-exist, seeing as Moubu likes to fight the strongest combatants, which you'd assume will be lined up for Shin later on.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jun 5, 2014)

Welcome back KIG.  How does it feel to have internet again?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Issho D Tea said:


> Welcome back KIG.  How does it feel to have internet again?



I feel like the strongest man in China


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

*I HAVE FOUND OST's!!!*

But it's on a Japanese site. I dunno if you guys have the same, but on my browser it gives me the option of translating everything, so it's ok for me.



The bit where it says "codec/price" (for those who can't turn it to English), click the bar and change each one to MP3. Then you can hear them.

A couple of them aren't there though, but the vast majority are.
Keeping this link safe in case they get a YT version:


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

I never found the anime OST's to be anything special, really none of them stayed in my mind.

I wonder when will season 3 start and will it start. They skipped the entire part with the Chu so I wonder how will they do that in the anime. Would be a bit weird if Kouyoku doesn't even know Shin before the war starts.

Speaking of the anime, has Moe caught up with the manga yet??


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 5, 2014)

Eh, for a moment I was really hyped but it's only the preview for each of the soundtrack and not the full ones.

tut

The wait still continues for an actual release online.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

They are actually available, but someone has to buy them and work their magic on to YT.

Listening to them now - a few are epic IMO. Just listening to 'Imperator' atm. The tune when Riboku arrives at Kanyou.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 5, 2014)

Yeah, it's been a couple of months now but seems no one cares enough to do so and I can't find it anywhere else.

Anime must have really been unpopular or something for it to not be out by now.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Can't really vote in this poll. There's no weapon I prefer over the others, it's more the characters behind the weapon. For instance Tou's use of the sword is miles better than any other sword users, with Kyoukai perhaps coming second. Ouki's use of the glaive was pretty epic, Moubu vs Kanmei with those two mace's hitting each other like repeated train crashes etc. I thought Kyouen looked pretty badass with the bow too. We don't really see much use from the shields in direct combat tbh. Spear is sick too, especially if Shihaku can show us some new moves.

So I don't have a favorite, though the sword becomes number 1 when it's in Tou's hands.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

I voted for dual swords, I always found dual wielding to be so cool. I hope Futei will be a beast like Rinko with the dual sword.

I wish we get to see someone using a battleaxe now that we know that they did exist. I wonder how does a huge battleaxe work against a mace or a glaive. 
Really hope we get a proper duel where both of the guys fighting have a different weapon.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Yeah different styles makes it much cooler. 
How many fights have we seen with different weapons?

Tou (sword) vs Rinbukun (glaive)
Mouten (sword) vs Hakurei (arrow)

Any others? I said it before but I'd love for Hara to show the advantages with weapons. A spear looks like the best counter to a mace. Fights that are determined stylistically would be great. I always like it when the so called stronger character in any series actually loses (or doesn't win) because he's at a disadvantage.

Mace > Sword
Spear > Mace

If Shihaku is currently on a level above Ouhon, I can see him being someone who could cause Moubu and in particular Kanmei a lot of trouble.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

I wouldn't call Mouten vs Hakurei a fight really, it was more like Hakurei running away and trying to get a hit on Tou while Mouten just chased him. Kouyoku vs Ouhon was more of a fight than that, but that too was mostly off panel. And Ouhon vs Rinko as well, where Ouhon was doing pretty well at keeping Rinko back, but couldn't really get anything done to him.

Problem with the Tou vs Rinbukun fight was that Tou was so clearly above Rinbukun in strength that it didn't properly show any of the advantages of the weapon.

I don't know how does the mace match up against a spear on horseback, I have a hard time believing that a spear could deflect a blow from Moubu's mace.
Guess we need to see a fight like this before we can properly judge things.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

True, but a spear is quite a bit longer than a mace isn't it? And it's still thick so won't get smashed to pieces straight away like a sword. Thicker than a glaive as well.

A mace has to have some weakness. 
Mace Moubu vs Glaive Houken would be pretty sick.

I actually think Moubu might be slightly physically stronger if the two were to clash head on, but I think Houken is more skilled. He out-maneuvered Duke without too much trouble.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

He would have to avoid directly clashing with Moubu's mace or the blade in his glaive would not be feeling too good. Kanmei had a huge sword and Moubu pretty much oneshot it with just 1 arm.

Moubu is so damn strong, whenever I try to imagine him fighting anyone else in Kingdom he always wins.


----------



## Akatora (Jun 5, 2014)

WEll googling took me to a thread on another forum where someone mentioned 1 handed maces would weight around 15 kg and 2 handed around 40 kg.

the "Kuondao" or however you spell the Glaive type in Kingdom could weight up to 26/40 kg(depending on the translation and this wasa the weight of the blade alone)

So the "Glaives" are not really that weak compared to maces imo


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> He would have to avoid directly clashing with Moubu's mace or the blade in his glaive would not be feeling too good. Kanmei had a huge sword and Moubu pretty much oneshot it with just 1 arm.
> 
> Moubu is so damn strong, whenever I try to imagine him fighting anyone else in Kingdom he always wins.



How do you do that, though? The two weapons are going to clash at some point.

Kanmei's even stronger (physically) than Moubu too. Maybe we're underestimating how strong a glaive is? Have we ever seen one smashed up? 

I wonder if Moubu ever dreams of fighting Houken? It's weird really because Houken isn't as famous as his strength should suggest. The dude has killed Kyou, Ouki and Duke - he should pretty much be number 1 on every bingo book in China lol. 

I can't really get over how easy Moubu shit on Kanmei's sword. I often think of Tou vs Moubu (because of the old debate with Urouge). It's a nightmare fight for Tou, tbh.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Akatora said:


> WEll googling took me to a thread on another forum where someone mentioned 1 handed maces would weight around 15 kg and 2 handed around 40 kg.
> 
> the "Kuondao" or however you spell the Glaive type in Kingdom could weight up to 26/40 kg(depending on the translation and this wasa the weight of the blade alone)
> 
> So the "Glaives" are not really that weak compared to maces imo



Begs the question though, how could Tou's sword clash with Rinbukun's glaive, and yet Moubu's mace obliterated Kanmei's sword? 

I'm sure there must be some history section on here. I might look around to see if there's any weapon-geniuses.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

Rinbukun was just that much weaker. And it also probably depends on the angle in which the weapon is hit. 
Moubu hit Kanmei's sword directly from above, but Tou and Rinbukun more like clashed their weapons.


----------



## Akatora (Jun 5, 2014)

Well again mentioned up to.
Looking at youtube I noticed the video i linked to in the past has been removed.
So after looking at a random guy with a Kwan-dao he mentioned the weight of the one he had.
15 pounds so around 7.5 kg which is pretty light compared to the most extreme ones.


The old video mentioned a chinease story of a great warrior using his kwandao/daodao(listing the later because my untrained ears think it sounded like that at first) to take 3 heads with 1 swing of his weapon.
The 3 heads were: 1) The head of the opponents weapon, 2) THe head of his horse and 3) the head of his enemy.


However imagine the power a glaive swing on horseback could potentially have.

40 kg blade so atleast 50 kg weapon, + 50-60 km/h horse charge, + Swing.... One things for sure I don't think a shield offer much protection...



Anyway here's what it say at wikipedia:



> According to legend, the guandao was invented by the famous general Guan Yu during the early 3rd century AD, hence the name. It is said that he specified its form and size to be made by a smithy, and was uniquely able to wield such an imposing weapon due to his large stature and legendary strength. Guan Yu's guandao was called "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" (青龍偃月刀, Qīngl?ng yǎnyu?dāo) which weighed 82 Chinese jin (estimated either at* 18.263 kg* or *48.38 kg*—a Han Dynasty jin was 222.72 grams in the metric system, while the jin used in the Ming Dynasty—during which the Romance of the Three Kingdoms was written—was about 590 grams).




Well after a second look I see a possible issue here, since Kingdom takes place ~ 400-500 years before Guan Yu.


----------



## Orca (Jun 5, 2014)

> Begs the question though, how could Tou's sword clash with Rinbukun's glaive, and yet Moubu's mace obliterated Kanmei's sword?



Glaives are supposed to cut whereas Mace is supposed to smash and crush. Swords are easily crushed I guess.



> I can't really get over how easy Moubu shit on Kanmei's sword. I often think of Tou vs Moubu (because of the old debate with Urouge). It's a nightmare fight for Tou, tbh.



I was reading the arguments about  Moubu vs Tou while lurking some older pages. I don't think this should be even debatable. Moubu has been portrayed as the stronger guy now matter how we look at it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 5, 2014)

I think what it is is that there are two things that matter the most here.

One is the wielder of the weapon and the second is the actual weapon.

Instance of both effects being in play - Shin vs Renpa. Even Renpa was surprised as to how the sword remained unscathed. Something like Tou's sword could very well keep up with Moubu's mace and never break, while at the same time, it could easily shatter had the sword not been his primary weapon or his original weapon.


----------



## Orca (Jun 5, 2014)

Wait... Rinbukun had a mace too didn't he? Ah I see the issue now. One explanation I can come up with is that Kanmei's sword was longer and spread over a larger area. Therefore it should be easier to break I guess?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

Also the angle in which it was hit was different and Kanmei's strength wouldn't give away at all so the sword had to bear the full force of Moubu's blow.

But yeah, there seems to be some special swords in Kingdom that can tank way more damage than some.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 5, 2014)

I think you should just chalk it to plot purposes.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

Just realised we're probably destined to see Shin vs Kouyoku in future which will mean glaive vs sword.


----------



## Typhon (Jun 5, 2014)

I...I need my fix! How... how long has it been?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 5, 2014)

With luck we get the raw tomorrow and maybe a translation in 2 days. But....if we get unlucky we might have to wait an entire week to get a new translated chapter.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 5, 2014)

We'll obviously see some more clashes between Ouhon/Shihaku. I really don't want Ouhon to win or even draw here.

Hopefully Shihaku will defeat Ouhon 1 on 1, and then Kanjou will swoop in and assist the unit in retreating.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 5, 2014)

I wish I read the series in one go.

The wait kills the mood for any weekly series.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 5, 2014)

Um... did Ernie make 7 dupes just to vote for axe?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Probably


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Its been 2 weeks since I last read a new Kingdom chapter and it was only 15 pages.

Hope Hara doesn't have breaks too often and maybe a few more pages...15 is kinda not much.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

lol I've been saying that for ages. Even Bleach has more pages, though nowhere near the content obviously. 

An extra page or two would make a huge difference. OP always has 21 pages.


----------



## Katou (Jun 6, 2014)

No Chapter this week?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

Looks like I'm not the only spear user anymore.

Hi-five, Steven1990!


----------



## Vieltewarm (Jun 6, 2014)

*@Moe:* 8         .


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Fear the spear 

Pretty hyped to see Shihaku. Wish we could have seen or at least find out how Reiou/Shihaku/Gaimou killed the others. I.e was it a trap, was it three different 1 on 1's, who took charge etc. 

I'd also like to see the relationship between the existing 3. They seem so different.


----------



## Lezu (Jun 6, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]BV7ac8QP7n8[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

Vieltewarm said:


> *@Moe:* 8         .








Kanki Is God said:


> Fear the spear
> 
> Pretty hyped to see Shihaku. Wish we could have seen or at least find out how Reiou/Shihaku/Gaimou killed the others. I.e was it a trap, was it three different 1 on 1's, who took charge etc.
> 
> I'd also like to see the relationship between the existing 3. They seem so different.



I find the Wei Dragons interesting in that I liked all three of them immediately from release. Most non-Qin groups or characters, I had to warm up to.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Can you imagine how well a great anime would have portrayed the deaths of Bitou, Ouki, Duke, Choutou, Mougou, Mangoku, Kanmei, Hyou, the woman in Sei's flashback etc. 

The potential sickens me.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 6, 2014)

Despite how turrible the animu is, I thought they handled Ouki's death really great actually.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Moe said:


> I find the Wei Dragons interesting in that I liked all three of them immediately from release. Most non-Qin groups or characters, I had to warm up to.



I can't think of a major character that I didn't like straight away tbh. It took me a while to really give a toss about Ouhon but now I definitely do.

I suppose Ten + Sei's wife are the only characters I just don't care for which is probably worse than actually disliking. At least with rebellion arc Seikyou I was excited to seeing him get a beating. 

Hakurei and Fuuki still have a way to go before I begin to care for them I suppose.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

I actually don't care for Renpa and Rinko, but to my surprise, both have a huge fanbase here.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Moe said:


> I actually don't care for Renpa and Rinko, but to my surprise, both have a huge fanbase here.





Renpa is in my top 3. Rinko I like, though not as much as others. Wouldn't make my top 20.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Renpa is in my top 3. Rinko I like, though not as much as others. Wouldn't make my top 20.



The way I rate characters are based off of how much I enjoy watching them or how excited I get when there is a hint they are getting involved.

Ousen is like way up top with Kanki, Shin, Ouki, Moubu, and Houken following. I found Renpa and Tou to be pretty boring.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

So Moe have you caught up with the manga yet?

Renpa and Tou boring? The fuck. That has to be the first time I ever heard anyone say that. Tou and Renpa are usually at least in peoples top 10 if not top 5.
I found Renpa to be great and Tou is easily the funniest character in Kingdom.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Moe said:


> The way I rate characters are based off of how much I enjoy watching them or how excited I get when there is a hint they are getting involved.
> 
> Ousen is like way up top with Kanki, Shin, Ouki, Moubu, and Houken following. I found Renpa and Tou to be pretty boring.



Have a moement and reflect upon what you've just said 

But yeah, some people just never get into certain characters. I'm not that fond of Sei but most seem to be. Shin is also wayyy down my list of favorites.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> So Moe have you caught up with the manga yet?
> 
> Renpa and Tou boring? The fuck. That has to be the first time I ever heard anyone say that. Tou and Renpa are usually at least in peoples top 10 if not top 5.
> I found Renpa to be great and Tou is easily the funniest character in Kingdom.



No, I'm like 1/4 caught up and almost caught up to where I picked up the manga. Yea, I just don't care for them. Tou is actually funny, but I've never been drawn to him.



Kanki Is God said:


> Have a moement and reflect upon what you've just said
> 
> But yeah, some people just never get into certain characters. I'm not that fond of Sei but most seem to be. Shin is also wayyy down my list of favorites.



What...the fuck? Really?

Sei is in my top 10, and Shin is well... like 2nd or 3d with Kanki.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

I always thought you liked Renpa since you were defending him in our Moubu vs Renpa topics.

And how can you not like Sei? I can understand not liking Shin, but Sei is pretty boss.

I'm kinda shocked guys. What's next? Someone comes here and says that they dislike Kanki?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I always thought you liked Renpa since you were defending him in our Moubu vs Renpa topics.
> 
> And how can you not like Sei? I can understand not liking Shin, but Sei is pretty boss.
> 
> I'm kinda shocked guys. What's next? Someone comes here and says that they dislike Kanki?



Um, no. I'm pretty impartial. I'm not going to defend Renpa because I like him, but the fact that he can actually walk the walk. I like Moubu 100x more than Renpa.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

I'm trying not to like Tou so much because I don't want to just follow the crowd, but there's so much about him that's epic.

- Design
- Humor
- Back-story
- Fighting style
- Personality 



Moe said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I like Sei, but it's just there's so many characters that I like so much more. My strangest 'like' is Choutou. Epic


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I'm trying not to like Tou so much because I don't want to just follow the crowd, but there's so much about him that's epic.
> 
> - Design
> - Humor
> ...



Actually, that would make you a hipster if you avoided Tou over that. So go fangasm over Tou.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

My strangest like is probably Rankai. 

I think Tou is cool and funny, but I feel like there hasn't been enough from him to be in my clear top 5 atm.

Ouki is still easily my most favorite character in the series and hes been dead for over 200 chapters now.
Is that a bad thing?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> My strangest like is probably Rankai.
> 
> I think Tou is cool and funny, but I feel like there hasn't been enough from him to be in my clear top 5 atm.
> 
> ...



No, lolllll. Why would it? If Ousen died, I'd doubt I would replace him as my top character.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Idk, I just feel like there should be a character that surpasses Ouki, but there really hasn't been anyone yet.
Altho, Ousen, Shin, Mouten, Ouhon, Sei and Kyoukai have the potential to surpass him imo.

I honestly want to put Ousen highly on my list, but I just can't yet. I need to see more from him, how much I really will like him depends on his eventual interaction with Ouhon that I have been waiting for.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

The thing about Tou is that he's epic and yet he still has so much more to grow. In fact that's the great thing about all the Qin Generals. They've all showed a good amount but there's a load of room for development. Tou still needs to step out of Ouki's shadow, Kanki can begin to show some deep caring for Qin, Ousen has his family + ambition, Moubu has his ambition + family.

The one character who may not change, develop or grow much is Kanki. Hara might just decide to keep him as he is. Not all characters need development. Though I wonder if I/we'll ever get bored of him?

I'm desperate to see Ousen being pushed into a corner against a top enemy. I have a feeling he'll be untouchable all series though. Ordo could get close in a rematch a la Mougou/Renpa.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

The only thing that needs to be done with Kanki is make his dreams and ambitions more clear and dark.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

I don't see why Kanki should really care for Qin that much tbh, he really has no real ties to the country at all, especially now that Mougou is gone.

Only thing he really gets from Qin is the status as a general that gives him lands and wealth. Not sure if he even has any ambitions or dreams outside of just fighting and enjoying his life.

Sure he might grow boring if he just keeps doing the same stuff over and over again, but I highly doubt Hara would do that. Eventually all the characters should run into some kind of a situation that they are not able to overcome and have the face some sort of loss.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Judging by Kanki's interactions with Choutou, I think he's more likely to show a more positive side where Qin is concerned, than a darker one. I think that's what the whole dynamic was - two contrasting characters, but ultimately Kanki showed some compassion + respect. Add Choutou's last words to that and it makes sense. To me anyways...

I'd actually prefer it if he became a darker character.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

But why would you think that? You think Kanki really cares for something like that? As far as we know he has no real friends in Qin, its not even his home country. I'm not sure if Kanki truly cares about what Choutou said to him.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I don't see why Kanki should really care for Qin that much tbh, he really has no real ties to the country at all, especially now that Mougou is gone.
> 
> Only thing he really gets from Qin is the status as a general that gives him lands and wealth. Not sure if he even has any ambitions or dreams outside of just fighting and enjoying his life.
> 
> Sure he might grow boring if he just keeps doing the same stuff over and over again, but I highly doubt Hara would do that. Eventually all the characters should run into some kind of a situation that they are not able to overcome and have the face some sort of loss.



It would kinda get boring if he carried the same mentality and demeanor 'till the end. We don't know why he is doing what he does, or why he is so cruel. It would make it more interesting if Hara tied a reason or end-goal to Kanki and his actions.



Kanki Is God said:


> Judging by Kanki's interactions with Choutou, I think he's more likely to show a more positive side where Qin is concerned, than a darker one. I think that's what the whole dynamic was - two contrasting characters, but ultimately Kanki showed some compassion + respect. Add Choutou's last words to that and it makes sense. To me anyways...
> 
> I'd actually prefer it if he became a darker character.



I'd prefer it as well. Kanki serves as a great contrast to the rest of the Qin Generals and... let's keep it that way.



Canuckgirl said:


> Yeah, from what I gathered in Mangafox Kingdom forum, he will play a huge role in the fall of a certain someone



Can you not do that (more like can you stop doing that)... We aren't clueless. We can surmise the individual you are referring to.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah the two people that he kind of seemed to care about are now gone, Kanki to me doesn't look like a character who would live by what someone that he kind of looked down upon told him.

I can see Kanki having some problems with Shin later on given their different styles. Shin promised that he would never let something like Chouhei happen again and we all know that Kanki doesn't really give a darn and will likely do something like that if he gets the chance.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Who're the most famous Generals in China right now? At a guess I'd suggest:

1. Renpa
2. Kouen
3. Riboku
4. Moubu

Can't really think of anyone else who's of legendary fame right now. Kanki, Ousen, Tou are still becoming famous in their own right, Ordo doesn't seem to be that elite, Karin has been a mystery to many. Maybe Houken? But then I don't know how famous he is outside Qin/Zhao. Riboku seems to get all the credit.



lazorwalrus said:


> Yeah the two people that he kind of seemed to care about are now gone, Kanki to me doesn't look like a character who would live by what someone that he kind of looked down upon told him.
> 
> I can see Kanki having some problems with Shin later on given their different styles. Shin promised that he would never let something like Chouhei happen again and we all know that Kanki doesn't really give a darn and will likely do something like that if he gets the chance.



He even tried to kill the commander who allowed his soldiers to rape victims. I don't think Shin would take too kind to the human sacrifices or human forests 

But I don't think Kanki will live to the end any way. It's weird, but Kingdom kind of makes me want to see my favorite characters die. Or at least it wouldn't bother me. They all have great endings + their effect is pretty huge on the manga. Duke's actions + words mean more to the story now than him winning another war through instincts would.

Plus, I REALLY want the other states to have some god like Generals tool. There's no reason why each state can't have a General that's actually stronger than Kanki, for instance.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

Senseless chaos and destruction becomes boring to watch unless there is an underlying reason. I hope for Kanki there is. If Kanki is still doing it for fun, then I dunno. Almost every General, but Kanki, seems to have some sort of goal here.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Kanki has never been about senseless chaos lol, there's always a point to what he does. Calling what he does senseless is like calling Moubu's speeches senseless, its just a way of messing with morale.

Sure he enjoys it, but there is a good reason for what he does.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah Kanki is very controlled at all times. It would actually be interesting to see him up against it, i.e boxed in up against someone like Houken. 

But I would like to know what Kanki's goal is. Maybe it's simple and he just does it because he enjoys it?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah, I wanna see the characters put into situations that they cannot control and can't really stay cool in.

We still haven't seen Ousen or Kanki face any real trouble and how they react to it. Moubu on the other hand has faced this and thus grew a lot as a person.

I wonder how would Kanki or Ousen deal with a loss on the battlefield. Would they be men enough to admit it like Moubu or just ignore it and put the blame on others.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Ousen wouldn't care. He's so cold that anyone else's opinion is irrelevant to him. Kanki....well I don't think he will either. Neither man is prideful or wants to show that they're better than everyone else, so the blaming game wouldn't be the same as with Moubu. I would like to see Ousen and Kanki in direct combat. I reckon Ousen's not to shabby.


----------



## Orca (Jun 6, 2014)

> Who're the most famous Generals in China right now? At a guess I'd suggest:
> 
> 1. Renpa
> 2. Kouen
> ...



The two generals that the Qi king was sending to face the Coalition army. They could be a pretty big deal too.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Houken is probably more famous than Moubu, Riboku has made him the commander multiple times now so hes gotten quite a bit of fame. On top of that he killed 3 legends of the previous era, he is probably more known than Kouen tbh.

Well don't really know anything about Kouen yet so I guess its not fair to rank him in anyway yet.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

Luffee said:


> The two generals that the Qi king was sending to face the Coalition army. They could be a pretty big deal too.



Well we know they have 3 Generals - the one who was the Commander in Chief vs Qin and the two sent to stop the coalition. But then Choutou was sent to stop Chu and he's far from legendary.

I think you caught up after I did some research into what happened in China before the Kingdom series began, so let me just tell you that there's a chance Qi might still have a god like General around Gekishin's age. One whom even Gakuki couldn't overcome. He fought around the time when Qi were invaded by the coalition, and as Gekishin is still old enough to fight there's no reason why this guy can't be alive, especially as there's no historical record of his death that I could find.


----------



## Orca (Jun 6, 2014)

It seems very likely that Kouen is Chu's number 1 general. Since Karin was made 2nd in command of Chu army, who else could be her superior other than Kouen?


----------



## Orca (Jun 6, 2014)

> Well we know they have 3 Generals - the one who was the Commander in Chief vs Qin and the two sent to stop the coalition. But then Choutou was sent to stop Chu and he's far from legendary.



As far as I remember Choutou was stationed at Chu borderline just as precaution. Though I have a very vague memory of it. 

Yeah I like the idea of  a great Qi general. I haven't read into the history but do all states fall one by one to Qin?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Well we know they have 3 Generals - the one who was the Commander in Chief vs Qin and the two sent to stop the coalition. But then Choutou was sent to stop Chu and he's far from legendary.
> 
> I think you caught up after I did some research into what happened in China before the Kingdom series began, so let me just tell you that there's a chance Qi might still have a god like General around Gekishin's age. One whom even Gakuki couldn't overcome. He fought around the time when Qi were invaded by the coalition, and as Gekishin is still old enough to fight there's no reason why this guy can't be alive, especially as there's no historical record of his death that I could find.



About Tian Dan, 
*Spoiler*: __ 



even if hes alive hes not going to be with Qi, the last records of him say that he moved to Zhao. He should be older than Renpa so I don't see him playing that much of a role unless hes like Genbou and does strategy only.




Well you probably don't want to read the history, it will spoil the entire story for you. A few of us(me at least) here have done it and its really something I regret doing lol.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Houken is probably more famous than Moubu, Riboku has made him the commander multiple times now so hes gotten quite a bit of fame. On top of that he killed 3 legends of the previous era, he is probably more known than Kouen tbh.
> 
> Well don't really know anything about Kouen yet so I guess its not fair to rank him in anyway yet.



Well, remember Qin don't know that much about Chu. Kouen might strike fear into the other states. Riboku seems to be the one who gets the credit for killing Ouki and even Gekishin too. Houken is still somewhat of a mystery to the other states it seems.

Moubu is now the symbol of Qin, arguably the most hated state in China right now. If you said Riboku was more famous than Moubu I'd agree, but Houken I'm not so sure.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Well when Gaimou was being told about Shin, they mentioned Houken who killed Duke Hyou, Ouki and Kyou.
Pretty sure Houken and Riboku go pretty much together anyway, when the Zhao war ended people were asking about Riboku and Houken. 
No way Houken is unknown to anyone at this point. Riboku places him as the leader of the army so that it would strike fear into those that they attack.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> About Tian Dan,
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



His method of fighting certainly points to a more strategic type General, albeit an unconventional one.


*Spoiler*: __ 



What you said regarding Zhao kind of kills my theory though, assuming Qi go after Zhao which is likely. Hara could potentially re-write history there I guess, though he did move Renpa to Chu.

Damn I wanted to see flaming cows


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> His method of fighting certainly points to a more strategic type General, albeit an unconventional one.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Hara might just do it anyway, but have it be someone else. Hara probably looks into these old battles and takes inspiration out of them.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well when Gaimou was being told about Shin, they mentioned Houken who killed Duke Hyou, Ouki and Kyou.
> Pretty sure Houken and Riboku go pretty much together anyway, when the Zhao war ended people were asking about Riboku and Houken.
> No way Houken is unknown to anyone at this point. Riboku places him as the leader of the army so that it would strike fear into those that they attack.



Jesus christ...Houken's victim list is insane. Kyou, Ouki, Gekishin, Duke. EVEN BITOU! 
Wouldn't surprise me if he adds another to that list either. 

But yeah, Houken will still be known, but whether he's famous enough to be above the symbol of Qin, is another matter. Houken is still a bit mysterious to other states, IMO.

I think Wei, Chu, Qi, Han and Yan would be more likely to crap their pants at Moubu than Houken at this stage.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah, Moubu became a true monster after the coalition war, not only did he crush Kanmei, he also chased the coalition and forced them to disband. Your probably right that hes more known than Houken, hes like what Houken is to Qin to the other states.

Houken does indeed have the biggest list of big achievements out of all the generals we know right now.
Wonder when will Shin finally get himself a very big achievement.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Yeah, Moubu became a true monster after the coalition war, not only did he crush Kanmei, he also chased the coalition and forced them to disband. Your probably right that hes more known than Houken, hes like what Houken is to Qin to the other states.
> 
> Houken does indeed have the biggest list of big achievements out of all the generals we know right now.
> Wonder when will Shin finally get himself a very big achievement.



He'll almost certainly kill a General in each of the unification wars, but I can see Gaimou being the first big-name achievement. 

I wonder which state will see Shin take a back seat. Hara can't really have Shin take the biggest head of the young Generation in all the wars. Ouhon/Mouten must do something. So far it's almost like their units are getting bigger collective achievements whilst Shin is taking the bigger heads.

My crystal ball tells me it'll either be Qi or Yan. Han could be Shin's first war as a General under Sei's order so he won't disappoint there. And he'll take huge names vs Wei, Zhao and Chu. That leaves only Qi and Yan for him to take more of a back seat.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

My crystal ball already kind of knows how things will go....

But Gaimou...him I don't know anything about. I hope he lives through this war along with Shihaku, but I'm kinda worried that Gaimou will be the achievement for Shin to become a general which would mean that Gaimou might die now.
It just seems so unlikely given how strong they seem compared to Shin and Ouhon.

Wonder how Rokuomi and Tou are doing against Reiou and Ranbihaku, don't think Rokuomi has what it takes to beat Ranbihaku so I'm kinda worried that he might die.


----------



## Orca (Jun 6, 2014)

Would you guys like for kingdom to continue after unification of china? If we could get to see China vs Japan, China vs India or even china vs the west. 

Sounds cool but not practical.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

If Gaimou or Shihaku die in this arc, it'll be the first time I'll have gone "" when reading Kingdom.

I'm hopeful this is a set up arc, to lay the seeds for future fights. Shin can go up 2 ranks no problem if he manages to play a major part in the Ryo vs Sei battle. Plus, if Gaimou is to lose in this arc, you'd think this arc would be a major one and will go on for another 40 weeks at least, but normally those arcs are hyped up a bit. 

With this arc, we just kind of got thrown right into it. You'd have thought there would be a pre-war moment where Hara makes it clear how important this location is. I think it would also be shoddy writing to suddenly create these 'revived' legends, and straight away throw them in a huge arc and have them killed. Hara would have been better off using characters who already existed in the series.

I can see Gaimou being the one before Houken, if that makes sense? Where does Shin go after defeating someone who's on the level of Ouki and co? We're years away (both in panel time and real life time) from Shin vs Houken. 

It would be like a boxer defeating one legendary opponent, then fighting 5 fodder before going up against the ultimate legend. Usually the legend would go just before the ultimate legend, if that makes any sense?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

Well after the unification wont come China vs Japan lol. Hara already said that he will finish the manga with the end of the unification. And knowing what happens after, I think its a really good thing, it wouldn't really go well with the story so far. And once again do NOT read about what happens after unless you want to be spoiled.

If Hara does anything after Kingdom, I hope it will be side stories about the time when Ouki and Renpa were young and their own adventures.


----------



## Orca (Jun 6, 2014)

Yeah I guess Sei's goal of ending war by uniting China would be for nothing then.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 6, 2014)

That image of Moubu standing over Ouki makes me appreciate how big Kanmei is. I assume Hara has re-sized them slightly so Ouki doesn't seem so small. Ouki himself was a bit of a physical monster.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 6, 2014)

I really wish that Shin still has some physical growth left, it just feels wrong to see him fighting against these big guys with his small size. He should at least be the same size as Duke Hyou when he reaches his prime.

I wonder has Mouten grown massive in the past 2 years.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 6, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Kanki has never been about senseless chaos lol, there's always a point to what he does. Calling what he does senseless is like calling Moubu's speeches senseless, its just a way of messing with morale.
> 
> Sure he enjoys it, but there is a good reason for what he does.



I was reffering to general chaos and destruction. Have you seen the Transformers movie? 60% of the movie consists of running (chaos) and explosions (destruction). You can argue that it isn't senseless because it is a battlefield, but there should be no reason as to why 60% of the movie is dedicated to senseless destruction that doesn't seem to end, nor progresses anywhere. Kanki does what he does to decrease morale, but I'm starting to think he does it because he enjoys it, more so than reducing morale. He is "Kanki the Beheader". What sense is there to decrease morale for an enemy that has already lost it all. Even if Kanki was winning with his eyes closed, he'd most likely burn each enemy he comes across for the hell of it. That I find to be senseless; therefore, I hope that Hara gives us a reason as to why he does that, as in some goal, that somewhat adds weight to his cruelness. Not because he feels like it... 



Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah Kanki is very controlled at all times. It would actually be interesting to see him up against it, i.e boxed in up against someone like Houken.
> 
> But I would like to know what Kanki's goal is. Maybe it's simple and he just does it because he enjoys it?



I would find that to be dull. I'm not asking for some intricate goal like that of Sei, but something plausible and understandable. 



lazorwalrus said:


> I really wish that Shin still has some physical growth left, it just feels wrong to see him fighting against these big guys with his small size. He should at least be the same size as Duke Hyou when he reaches his prime.
> 
> I wonder has Mouten grown massive in the past 2 years.





Sorry, what were you saying?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2014)

The raw chapter is out: New chapter's out!

Not gonna read it unless everyone else does.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 7, 2014)

Lets hope it gets translated soon, TF is probably gonna wait for the Japanese scan so Mangajoy is probably our best bet for a quick translation.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 7, 2014)

I never read it until spectrum nexus puts it up.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2014)

So....I'm yet to hear of any hopes/expectations from this chapter. Just looked on MJ and apparently they'll release it tomorrow. 

I've already said my expectations (also my hope) - Shihaku is too strong for Ouhon, and Kanjou comes in and saves him allowing for the retreat.

edit:

TF's next release is on the 14th of June. 
Are they a week behind constantly?

My 3 week 'break' has killed my senses lol.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 7, 2014)

Yup, TF will always be a week behind, but MJ seems to put it out a day later and their quality was pretty decent at least the last time. I'm gonna be reading whatever translations come out tbh, don't wanna wait a week for a chapter.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

I'm hoping that Ouhon experiences the same setback as Shin's unit. Shihaku should completely stomp Ouhon, resulting in his unit sacrificing their lives to help him escape, essentially negating the progress he's made. 

I'mma wait for TF's chapter to come out.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'm hoping that Ouhon experiences the same setback as Shin's unit. Shihaku should completely stomp Ouhon, resulting in his unit sacrificing their lives to help him escape, essentially negating the progress he's made.
> 
> I'mma wait for TF's chapter to come out.



Even though you'd always be a week behind???


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Even though you'd always be a week behind???



Yep. I only want to read its best version. If it's a week behind, it's a week behind. What can you do? 


Depends though. I know there might be some people who avoid this thread because they do not want to get spoiled by MJ readers. I think for discussion's sake, it'd be easier if we all just waited for TF, but that is on you - your choice.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 7, 2014)

I don't think I can wait for a week if the MJ version is at least decent quality. Last time it wasn't even that bad, if they keep that quality up I'm definitely reading the MJ version.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2014)

In theory, waiting for TF would be beneficial. But I don't have the willpower. If there's another translated chapter around, I'm going to read it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

I don't really see it as waiting an extra week. The actual chapter might be a week behind, but the fact that we are following a weekly release pattern kinda makes up for it.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2014)

Yeah but how will you cope a chapter has a god like cliff hanger and you know MJ already have the following chapter?

I did notice that a lot of people still aren't posting - Urouge, Boshi, Beckham, GZoro, Kizaru to name a few...


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 7, 2014)

Some old people that used to post aren't really posting either lol.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah but how will you cope a chapter has a god like cliff hanger and you know MJ already have the following chapter?
> 
> I did notice that a lot of people still aren't posting - Urouge, Boshi, Beckham, GZoro, Kizaru to name a few...



I can wait. The wait makes the chapter ever so more delicious.



lazorwalrus said:


> Some old people that used to post aren't really posting either lol.



What can you do, ehh? Guess us three and a couple other dedicated posters will have to keep the Kingdom section alive.

Also kinda of kills any momentum we had for out own subsection. It looks like we'll have to start from scratch again and rebuild fanbase of dedicated posters. The Kingdom threads are my main threads, the place where I spend most of my time and post most often in, so I'm not going anywhere. Actually, without this thread, I'd prolly have stopped browsing NF.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 7, 2014)

Kingdom gets a lot of mentions in the various convo threads, just not in here 

Even J4Ever seems to have gone. And CSchemer.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 7, 2014)

If you ask me, a fandom being split over translations seems kind of silly (if this is legitimately killing discussion). I'd understand if they were ultra low quality translations. To me, Mangajoy is good enough to at least get an understanding of whats going on and TF is basically just higher quality for more precise translations. To me, reading the MJ chapter first isn't going to ruin my enjoyment of the chapter and odds are, it'll just enhance my experience when I read TF (because it'll be like almost reading the chapter fresh again with much better quality and translations). It's literally a win/win for me.


Now my thoughts about the latest raw~


*Spoiler*: _Raw Spoiler_ 



Shihaku is much more of a monster than I expected.

Instigated the split with the Wei Fire dragons himself and personally killed all 3 of them for vengeance for his sisters death. Ouhon logically was overpowered by him and forced to retreat which makes me satisfied. I didn't really want to see him stand decently against him so soon sort of like how Shin was doing so against Gaimou thanks to his "guts". 

Wonder how Ouhon will fare while his group retreats.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

Sphyer said:


> If you ask me, a fandom being split over translations seems kind of silly (if this is legitimately killing discussion). I'd understand if they were ultra low quality translations. To me, Mangajoy is good enough to at least get an understanding of whats going on and TF is basically just higher quality for more precise translations. To me, reading the MJ chapter first isn't going to ruin my enjoyment of the chapter and odds are, it'll just enhance my experience when I read TF (because it'll be like almost reading the chapter fresh again with much better quality and translations). It's literally a win/win for me.



It's just not how I do things. I prefer enjoying something at its best form; HOWEVER, for the sake of discussion, I'll read MJ if the quality remains DECENT. Discussions here are pretty much at a standstill compared to what we've had before. Even with two chapters released we use to have pretty long discussions. I don't want to make it worse avoiding this thread every week and dump the responsibility on Lazor and KIG. See what I do for you guys ? If it degrades in quality to the point where we have to have a discussion about the validity of things said, then i'm going back to reading TF - no doubt about that.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 7, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> It's just not how I do things. I prefer enjoying something at its best form; HOWEVER, for the sake of discussion, I'll read MJ if the quality remains DECENT. Discussions here are pretty much at a standstill compared to what we've had before. Even with two chapters released we use to have pretty long discussions. I don't want to make it worse avoiding this thread every week and dump the responsibility on Lazor and KIG. See what I do for you guys ? If it degrades in quality to the point where we have to have a discussion about the validity of things said, then i'm going back to reading TF - no doubt about that.



In some aspects, I can understand waiting for better things though it usually depends on the product. Manga is generally not one of them for me unless I think the pay off for patience is fundamentally worth it.

I caught up right during the Renpa Arc and there were tons of chapters I could have checked in raws and summaries but I didn't do so since TF was releasing bundles of chapters weekly which is more satisfying than spoiling myself from the jump start (and also people here had a similar mindset so discussion was more interesting).

Just an example of my own personal exception though.

Though, people can do as they please, it's kind of a shame when discussion takes a blow for a series because of that when really, discussion should be more prominent as we progress.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

All for the sake of discussion, I guess. We all have to do our part.


----------



## Lezu (Jun 7, 2014)

I'm pretty sure more people would post here if turnip farmers would be releasing the chapter on the same day as mangajoy.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 7, 2014)

Lezu said:


> I'm pretty sure more people would post here if turnip farmers would be releasing the chapter on the same day as mangajoy.



Dat be the truth!


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Mangajoy chapter to be released in about an hour.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

I really hope its at least decent quality like the last one.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

New chapter's out!

chapter out


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

The quality is good enough imo.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 8, 2014)

Now for spectrum nexus to release it.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 8, 2014)

Shihaku is definitely my first new favorite character in a while and if this keeps up, he'll continue to rise for me 

Definitely my most favorite of the Wei Fire Dragons too. His history/skill/design is very appealing to me as well as his personality.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

About chapter 390, dunno if everyone will read it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Shihaku is depicted REALLY well in combat imo. His spear assault comes off as much more frightening to me than the destructive wide swings from glaives or maces that we're used to seeing. One of the reasons he destroyed Ouhon so easily could be that he doesn't screw around even a tiny bit. He appears to be 100% dead serious right off the bat more so other strong fighters we've seen, like Rinko or more recently Gaimou. I like seeing that the only reason the Gyoku Hou were performing so much better than the HSU is that their Fire Dragon waited longer to come out.

What's the thing at the end? Is it implying the one who really killed his sister was Reiou? He was implied to be exceptionally cruel.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 8, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I don't quite get the beginning. That man was clearly trying to get Shihaku killed, but at the same time, judging from the fact that the soldiers kept calling him Young Master, it seems that he is somehow related to whoever was leading the troops. He even said not to call Shihaku that, and that they weren't related. So why?

Interesting chapter, and major hype for Shihaku. I don't see how Ouhon can really beat him tbh. It looks like Shihaku has several years over him. No way in hell should Ouhon beat him in their next encounter.

Also DAT LAST PANEL!!! I hope to God Reio is somehow involved in that.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Damn Shihaku is a beast 

Definitely the most impressive FD so far. By the sounds of it he was the leader of the 3 as well. But there's gonna be a twist next week - someone else probably killed his sister. My guess is a spy from another state secretly killed her and framed one of the Fire Dragons to ensure a civil war. 

A bit worried about the 'tomorrow' line. I hope this doesn't mean Ouhon and Shin will defeat their enemies tomorrow.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Daamn, this chapter was good. Shihaku is a complete monster, probably even better in combat than Gaimou. And Ouhon is in serious trouble now and I guess this chapter confirmed that Shihaku wont be dying in this arc, no way Ouhon can beat him.

Hmm, Reiou maybe killed his sister, but no way he would ever tell that. Or maybe it was someone else and Reoi put the blame on the other 3.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> About chapter 390, dunno if everyone will read it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It definitely implied that things weren't as they seemed. But, I highly doubt it was Reiou. Why would he openly admit it was he who killed Shihaku's sister, when Shihaku is still around? 

As I said above, it wouldn't surprise me if someone from another state did and framed the other Dragon, perhaps with the help of Reiou?


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 8, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Damn Shihaku is a beast
> 
> Definitely the most impressive FD so far. By the sounds of it he was the leader of the 3 as well. But there's gonna be a twist next week - someone else probably killed his sister. My guess is a spy from another state secretly killed her and framed one of the Fire Dragons to ensure a civil war.
> 
> A bit worried about the 'tomorrow' line. I hope this doesn't mean Ouhon and Shin will defeat their enemies tomorrow.



I dunno about leader but he sure is the most fearsome of them. I think that Reiou may be implied to have actually killed his sister though. We don't really know enough about them though to say why he might have done it.

Personally, I think that Reiou still may be very dangerous himself because he seems to be of a similar mindset with Gouhoumei except in my opinion, he gives off a more cunning personality that makes me more wary of him than even Shihaku.


Also Shihaku's useage of spears are really awesome. I honestly thought the way Ouhon used them were sort of ok but this guy makes them look epic as fuck


----------



## Orca (Jun 8, 2014)

Great chapter.

> It seems that the other three Dragons were created just to hype these three. There designs are too simple.

> Last panel was intriguing. Was it reiou who killed Shihaku's sister? Judging by the fact that there are currently three Wei fire dragons in this battle + Gohomei(Wei's no.1 general right now), it would be underwhelming if Tou and company are able to defeat them. I think some kind of internal conflict has to happen in the Wei army. Maybe Shihaku learns the truth about his sister and turns on Reiou? Assuming reiou was involved.


----------



## Mihawk (Jun 8, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet
but the backstory of him and his sister, plus the fact that he's a spears master, reminds me of oberyn martell  

as far as his fight with ouhon is concerned, his relentlessness(as corus said) is as impressive, as it is frightening. 

just as how he blasted holes and craters through the qin soldiers' faces and armour so quickly they don't even sense or see it coming, the way he's dismantling ouhon is very relentless as well. It's like facing a rapid barrage of enormously sharp bullets that's incredibly hard to keep up with. 

one misstep or moment of loss of focus, and you're finished.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Sphyer said:


> I dunno about leader but he sure is the most fearsome of them. I think that Reiou may be implied to have actually killed his sister though. We don't really know enough about them though to say why he might have done it.
> 
> Personally, I think that Reiou still may be very dangerous himself because he seems to be of a similar mindset with Gouhoumei except in my opinion, he gives off a more cunning personality that makes me more wary of him than even Shihaku.
> 
> ...



To be honest I thought Reiou would be the strongest from the start. Either that, or he's dead. Just because of the fact that Wei have two strategists, and he's up against Tou whilst the others are against the younger Generation.

I guess we'll switch to Tou next week, or the week after. For the close of day 1. Hopefully Tou will also lose and he'll decide to pull back and forfeit the war. Ouhon's 'tomorrow' line does worry me a bit. I don't want Qin to win.


----------



## Canuckgirl (Jun 8, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Dat be the truth!





Sphyer said:


> Shihaku is definitely my first new favorite character in a while and if this keeps up, he'll continue to rise for me
> 
> Definitely my most favorite of the Wei Fire Dragons too. His history/skill/design is very appealing to me as well as his personality.





Coruscation said:


> About chapter 390, dunno if everyone will read it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...





Kanki Is God said:


> Damn Shihaku is a beast
> 
> Definitely the most impressive FD so far. By the sounds of it he was the leader of the 3 as well. But there's gonna be a twist next week - someone else probably killed his sister. My guess is a spy from another state secretly killed her and framed one of the Fire Dragons to ensure a civil war.
> 
> A bit worried about the 'tomorrow' line. I hope this doesn't mean Ouhon and Shin will defeat their enemies tomorrow.





Luffee said:


> Great chapter.
> 
> > It seems that the other three Dragons were created just to hype these three. There designs are too simple.
> 
> > Last panel was intriguing. Was it reiou who killed Shihaku's sister? Judging by the fact that there are currently three Wei fire dragons in this battle + Gohomei(Wei's no.1 general right now), it would be underwhelming if Tou and company are able to defeat them. I think some kind of internal conflict has to happen in the Wei army. Maybe Shihaku learns the truth about his sister and turns on Reiou? Assuming reiou was involved.



I have to say this arc is turning out to be quite interesting and a remarkable test for our young heroes (too bad Mouten is not involved).  This will help push Ouhon and Shin so when they embark in conquering China, they will be bad asses.  Currently, they are meeting truly difficult enemies to deal with.  Imagine if those Fire Dragons had been involved in the previous (Wei) war!!!! Also, I like that Ou hon is being taken down a notch.  He needs it!  And yes, Shihaku is amazing; I never thought you could do this with a spear!


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Heh, I thought Shin used to be a bit too strong when he was like 15, but Shihaku is on a whole new tier.

I wonder were the current very top tier guys this strong as well when they were young.

Doesn't look like Ouhon will win this one, he can analyze Shihaku all he wants, but there's no way he can beat him in a fight.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 8, 2014)

What I'm interested in mostly is how this war ends. I'm completely baffled. Who's going to die? How can Qin win/lose this? Will we get to see Shin finally lead?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

I hope not. Maybe it's because I've got OP/Naruto/Bleach/HxH stuck in my mind, but I always worry that the good guys will pull of a ridiculous victory after getting raped the day before.

This Shihaku is my favourite Wei character already. Damn these guys will be amazing benchmarks for Shin/Ouhon to go past.

Shihaku already seems much more impressive than Gaimou. As an overall General, I'd rank Gaimou firmly behind Zhao-war Moubu. Shihaku could well be the strongest Wei General we've seen. Early days though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Reiou so far seems the most useless out of the 3. Hes a strategist, but Wei already has Gohoumei so I think Reiou is the only one of the 3 that's likely to die.

Oh man would I be pissed if they are going to pull some ''We analyzed your tricks, you can't beat us now'' bullshit.
Qin with what they have now should NOT win this war.

Shihaku is probably the best general out of the 3, but I assume he lacks leadership abilities due to his personality.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

I have an extremely hard time seeing Qin win this war. It's a pity for Tou to lose in his first solo commander in chief position but the opposition is just astonishingly strong this time around. Someone mentioned it before but this war also felt like it came much more out of nowhere than other major arcs. It gives me the feeling that it's going to be more of a mid-length one, where we're introduced to these powerful new opponents, where Shin and Ouhon push themselves to the limit yet still only manage damage control, and it sets up confrontations with Gaimou and Shihaku respectively in the future. They're perfect opponents for Shin and Ouhon respectively. Gaimou and Shin are similar, both being powerful commanders who lead from the front and leave the strategy part to trusted subordinates. Shihaku and Ouhon are even more similar, to the point of almost being identical in their qualities as commanders; skilled enough in both combat and strategy to be a match even for people who specialize in either. There's no way in hell Ouhon beats Shihaku right now so he's a perfect future opponent for what I'm guessing will be the last war with Wei. Gaimou will be a great test of martial might for Shin as well as he's really up there with the best of them but probably not quite on the level of a Moubu or Houken at the peak of peaks.



> As an overall General, I'd rank Gaimou firmly behind Zhao-war Moubu.



I really don't know about that. Moubu is probably stronger in a fight, but he was arrogant to the extreme at that point of his career. He refused to heed any advice, went as far as to disobey direct orders and believed that everything could be overcome by attacking it head-on. Gaimou seems to value his right-hand man and probably listens much more to him than Moubu listened to anyone, even freaking Ouki, at that point. Gaimou is getting a little underrated right now imo. Shin said he felt the same overbearing weight from him as with Renpa and wonders why he's not just as famous as him, that's no small amount of praise.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

The only way Qin can possibly win this without it being BS, would be for Ousen to come and help. But even then, it would probably need Shin and Ouhon to defeat Gaimou and Shihaku.

I'm excited to see how Hara differentiates Reiou from Gohoumei. The latter is kind of your typical strategist, whilst Reiou seems much more manipulative and evil. Hara is quite good at making his strategists different. 

I'm probably well off, but first impressions I can see some stats of:

Gaimou:
Strength: 97
Leadership: 90
Strategy: 70

Shihaku:
Strength: 96
Leadership: 75
Strategy: 94

Perhaps all these Fire Dragons will have one clear weakness each. Reiou's being strength obviously. Not that stats mean anything, but I like them anyway.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

Gohoumei stood out a bit by being an exceptional engineer didn't he? What with those siege weapons he crafted for the coalition war. Reiou might devise strategies heavily involving sacrifice (of his own men) and deceit. Maybe some Kanki-esque terror tactics too.

Agreed with those stats, about what I would have guessed too. I still think Gaimou is stronger in a fight than Shihaku when it really comes down it, he would be underwhelming as a general to me otherwise since the three fire dragons in this arc seem to be designed to be pure strength -- strength and strategy -- pure strategy. It does make me wonder where Ranbihaku fits in. A strength of 95 maybe? Should be enough to give Ouki at least a little trouble if we consider that that's what Duke Hyou was assigned.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Gaimou will be a great test of martial might for Shin as well as he's really up there with the best of them but probably not quite on the level of a Moubu or Houken at the peak of peaks.



Yeah, Gaimou is the perfect opponent just before Houken. The dialogue regarding Shin's lack of skill  also makes you think Gaimou is the final obstacle before Houken too. Shin might have the power to clash with the big guns, but he lacks the skill. Even Duke was defeated with skill so Shin has a lot to learn.




> I really don't know about that. Moubu is probably stronger in a fight, but he was arrogant to the extreme at that point of his career. He refused to heed any advice, went as far as to disobey direct orders and believed that everything could be overcome by attacking it head-on. Gaimou seems to value his right-hand man and probably listens much more to him than Moubu listened to anyone, even freaking Ouki, at that point. Gaimou is getting a little underrated right now imo. Shin said he felt the same overbearing weight from him as with Renpa and wonders why he's not just as famous as him, that's no small amount of praise.



Yeah there's no doubting Gaimou's physical power - I'd put him in the top 6 of who we've seen for sure (Houken, Ouki, Moubu, Renpa, Gaimou, Tou).

Moubu might be arrogant with regards to others, but he does have some intelligence - he was able to increase the overall morale of his unit on the first day by being a bit more defensive to avoid losing too many men. The next day due to the increase in morale he + his unit were able to steamroll Rihaku, who was said to be very hard to break through.

Part of Moubu's problem was his resentment of Ouki. He probably wouldn't have been quite as stubborn if Mougou or Duke was the commander in chief. Moubu also has great 'feats' at charging through enemies. I could be wrong but we've not seen that from Gaimou to anywhere near the extent. He is 'just' a fighter in the purest sense of the word. I suppose at least Gaimou knows his limitations so listens to his strategist though. 

You do make me question my opinion. They're certainly close.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Ranbihaku is probably like a tier above Rinbukun, maybe close to Duke even. These 3 make Wei pretty damn strong, I guess the only thing they lack now is the numbers to match the bigger states.

Imo Qin would need like Tou, Moubu and then Shin and Ouhon to win this fight. This is really the first time Shin and Ouhon are alone fighting against adults.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

I can see Ranbihaku being in the 93 range. Remember just because he caused problems for Ouki and Kyou, doesn't mean it was in 1 on 1 clashes. It seems like there's a clear tactic of Ranbihaku coming from one side and Reiou's tactics coming from the other, rather than Ranbihaku going straight in solo.

It is hard to say though. Rinbukun was defeated swiftly by Tou and was only 3 behind in points (only 2 behind Duke). So I can actually see the stat being 93-ish, obviously with average at best leadership and strategy. I tend to give stats that I would use, as Hara is a little inconsistent. Rankai is 99 for a start.


----------



## Canuckgirl (Jun 8, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> What I'm interested in mostly is how this war ends. I'm completely baffled. Who's going to die? How can Qin win/lose this? Will we get to see Shin finally lead?



I foresee a loss, since it was not recorded in the Annals/Shi Ji, but I could be wrong


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> . So I can actually see the stat being 93-ish, obviously with average at best leadership and strategy. I tend to give stats that I would use, as Hara is a little inconsistent. Rankai is 99 for a start.



Rankai is easily top tier, no idea what your talking about. Just you wait, someday Rankai will do something great.

Ranbihaku seems like a mindless brute even more so than Gaimou. Hes there to compensate for Reiou's own lack of physical abilities I assume.
Reiou and Ranbihaku are like a weaker version of Houken + Riboku, but Ranbihaku actually joins in the attacks instead of just dueling people.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Well Gaimou is a guy who stands and trades, if that makes sense. Ranbihaku seems like one of those who charges in from the side and goes through enemies at a burst.



Canuckgirl said:


> I foresee a loss, since it was not recorded in the Annals/Shi Ji, but I could be wrong



Thank god. Otherwise you'd come on here and say "This arc will be great, I won't spoil anything but the way Qin win this is truly epic. I love how Ouhon showed who's boss in the end".


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 8, 2014)

Canuckgirl said:


> I foresee a loss, since it was not recorded in the Annals/Shi Ji, but I could be wrong



I think the better question is what they were thinking they were going to do with a force 1/10th the size of Wei's.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

> I can see Ranbihaku being in the 93 range. Remember just because he caused problems for Ouki and Kyou, doesn't mean it was in 1 on 1 clashes



Ehh. We've seen what happens when a 93 range dude tries to take on Ouki. You could argue that perhaps the same could be said about Rinko, but Rinko was a clever commander in his own right while Ranbihaku just seems to come charging in. Plus the short exchange with Tou had them both grace each other equally. I would feel a little disappointed if Hara used "he used to give Ouki trouble" as hype only for him to barely even be a half-decent match for Tou. But then again he did do the thing with Kanmei and Oukotsu (sp?).



> Moubu might be arrogant with regards to others, but he does have some intelligence - he was able to increase the overall morale of his unit on the first day by being a bit more defensive to avoid losing too many men. The next day due to the increase in morale he + his unit were able to steamroll Rihaku, who was said to be very hard to break through.
> 
> Part of Moubu's problem was his resentment of Ouki.



Indeed he did not lack for offensive power or understanding of war but he still refused any other actual approach to battle than barging in and trying to crush everything with raw might. Gaimou may be a little stupid himself but I think him more similar to Shin in that regard, letting his strategist handle the overall approach while doing what's needed of him. Sort of like what Moubu finally accepted with Shouheikun's plan for the Chu.

I feel like things like running into the boulder trap would have happened regardless (unless Shouheikun was personally there to advice him otherwise). As I see it Moubu at that time wasn't quite mature enough as a commander despite his natural talent.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Yeah they put Tou in a crappy situation here. You would have thought a message would go back to Kanyou informing them of the Fire Dragons' revival.

Said it earlier but the best General for this situation is Kanki. He'd find a way of sneaking into the enemy HQ and probably wipe out Reiou/Gohoumei in one go. He loves a sitting target. Though I kind of want to avoid Kanki and Moubu for a while. 

Poor Tou, though. Ousen, Kanki and Moubu are raking in the achievements whilst he's given the impossible job. If there was a race to join Moubu as a Great General, Tou is firmly stuck in 3rd place right now.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Ehh. We've seen what happens when a 93 range dude tries to take on Ouki. You could argue that perhaps the same could be said about Rinko, but Rinko was a clever commander in his own right while Ranbihaku just seems to come charging in. Plus the short exchange with Tou had them both grace each other equally. I would feel a little disappointed if Hara used "he used to give Ouki trouble" as hype only for him to barely even be a half-decent match for Tou. But then again he did do the thing with Kanmei and Oukotsu (sp?).



Remember Rinbukun was also a 93, and he was able to do some damage to Tou. He definitely was problematic to deal with in any case. Plus, context is everything. If we compare Shoumou to Rinbukun for a second (both 93), Rinbukun was confident but not overly so. Shoumou charged in and seemingly went straight for an arrogant one shot attack. Obviously he lost and got stomped. Kind of like in boxing - if you try too hard for the knock out punch, you do leave yourself open. That was casual Ouki too. I don't think Ouki casually stomps someone who could give serious Tou a challenge, though. 

Also Kaishibou was only 91, and this was a guy who apparently could rival Renpa in combat. What probably makes Ranbihaku isn't his ability to stand and trade 1 on 1, it's probably the timing of his charges which are used in conjunction with Reiou's attack from the other side. 

There's plenty of ways to give people trouble, and strange as it sounds I think there's plenty of ways to cause trouble via combat. Ranbihaku seems like a crazy animal, not someone who stands like a gladiator and prepares to fight 1 on 1.



> I feel like things like running into the boulder trap would have happened regardless (unless Shouheikun was personally there to advice him otherwise). As I see it Moubu at that time wasn't quite mature enough as a commander despite his natural talent.



I definitely think Moubu was a capable commander - in fact we know he was from the admissions of other Generals + officials, but he wasn't the right man for that war. In fact it's clear that officials regarded Duke + Mougou as being more appropriate. 

Obviously different wars + circumstances suit different Generals, and Moubu was absolutely not the right man to lead the quickly assembled army against Zhao.

The difference between the then Moubu and Gaimou is that Moubu is probably more of a war winner or loser. Gaimou relies on others, whereas Moubu will take action which either wins the war or loses it. In a war between the two I'd definitely fancy Zhao-Moubu just because you know the two will likely call each other out and fight to the death, but as an overall General you've made me retreat to the fence a bit.

It's also true that we haven't seen all that much of Gaimou. I'm sure he'll have another trick up his sleeve or two.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

It was said that Kaishibou could rival Renpa in his destructive power which is not the same as direct combat.
It just means that in a charge Kaishibou could do simular damage as Renpa.

It would seem that the fire dragons are all quite strong in some areas, but lacking in 1 key area. Gaimou in strategy, Reiou in strength and Shihaku in leadership. They kind of need each other to get work done.

I wonder will Gokei be mentioned in the next few chapters or in this arc again, there seems to be more to the fire dragons story than what we know right now.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

> Rinbukun was also a 93, and he was able to do some damage to Tou. He definitely was problematic to deal with in any case. Plus, context is everything.



Context being everything is why Ranbihaku being that comparatively weak sounds wrong. He just charges in and attacks and is dangerous because of his personal strength. Plus again the exchange with Tou was portrayed as equal which in this case wasn't a true battle but just a hint about his strength. Tou could without a doubt have killed him quite swiftly if he was on the general level of previous 93s but IIRC what he said was that there's no doubt they will get caught in a trap trying to fight him if they don't immediately retreat, which implies it would not be an encounter he could end quickly but quite the opposite. Tou should of course have greater weight so between all these things the guy being a 93 sounds a little too low in my eyes.



> Kaishibou was only 91, and this was a guy who apparently could rival Renpa in combat.



It was said that he compares to Renpa in destructive power. I take that to mean he was simply a very physically strong man just like Ryuusen in the HSU. Ryuusen could never rival Shin in actual combat as we know and Rinko was definitively the best fighter of Renpa's retainers.



> The difference between the then Moubu and Gaimou is that Moubu is probably more of a war winner or loser. Gaimou relies on others, whereas Moubu will take action which either wins the war or loses it. In a war between the two I'd definitely fancy Zhao-Moubu just because you know the two will likely call each other out and fight to the death



Yes that's how I'd put it. Gaimou is more mature and versatile and won't make crippling and outright embarassing mistakes like Moubu did at the time. But in raw offensive power or a war between the two, Moubu is likely the greater one.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 8, 2014)

Thought about waiting for turnips, but Kanki manged to lure me back into the fray.

Well, Shikaku is definitely impressive. Even his young version would probably demolish Ouhon.
He was definitely a monster, even at a young age. Though with his back story it at least makes more sense than Shin's situation.
I wonder why the head of the Shi family disliked him. He even tried to kill him off several times.

It definitely seems Reiou was involved with the death of Shikaku's sister, imo. The smile he had, is a dead give away.
Right now, Qin doesn't stand a chance of winning this battle. Two of three assault groups are badly outmatched both in skill and numbers, so I wonder how they plan on turning the tide.
But I voted for Qin's loss on that poll, so I hope they lose this time, anyway.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 8, 2014)

Gaimou would probably beat Moubou in battle, more times than he would lose.
Even though Moubou matured a bit, he still doesn't appreciate the value of strategy enough.
That would really hurt him against Gaimou, who values his subordinates strategies.
They both have the same weakness, but Gaimou at least found a way to make up for it.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Gaimou also is an idiot who charges to the battlefield and challenges the enemy commander just like that.

Moubu would beat Gaimou in a 1vs1.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 8, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Gaimou also is an idiot who charges to the battlefield and challenges the enemy commander just like that.
> 
> Moubu would beat Gaimou in a 1vs1.



Gaimou would lose the battle, but he would win the war.
Don't underestimate his right hand man. 
I can totally see him crippling Moubu's army, while those two are off dueling.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

I don't know, Moubu is such a monster that I don't see how he could even lose the war. Even after beating Kanmei who is above Gaimou, Moubu was still able to fight and crush the enemy. 

After Gaimou would be dead his men would be the next that Moubu comes after and no one could stop him.

There's not much to estimate given how we don't even know how good his right hand man is, he managed to kidnap Ten, but that just isn't enough to put him really anywhere yet. 
Moubu has his own right hand men anyway and probably Mouten with him.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 8, 2014)

Moubu only beat Kanmei, because of the adrenaline rush from seeing Mouten getting slashed.
The fighting afterward isn't as impressive for me, since I got used to Shin's absurd recovery time.


----------



## convict (Jun 8, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> *Moubu only beat Kanmei, because of the adrenaline rush from seeing Mouten getting slashed.*
> The fighting afterward isn't as impressive for me, since I got used to Shin's absurd recovery time.



Multiple people have stated as such and it is really perplexing. Read the fight again. Moubu had that fight in the bag regardless of his son.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 8, 2014)

Moubu defeated Kanmei and then he was able to force the Chu army to retreat and a few days later he was able to chase down the coalition and force them to disband. 

Hes not losing to Gaimou in any way.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

What stats are you expecting Yuuren to get? I'm thinking if she can stomp the Kyoukai who was already up in the 90's, her combat ability must be about 94 minimum.

Also, I did notice that in Tou's stats, his special 'line' underneath his stats says he specialises in 'parrying'. That could explain why he can skilfully parry weapons that should be far too powerful, i.e a sword or a glaive.



Coruscation said:


> Context being everything is why Ranbihaku being that comparatively weak sounds wrong. He just charges in and attacks and is dangerous because of his personal strength. Plus again the exchange with Tou was portrayed as equal which in this case wasn't a true battle but just a hint about his strength. Tou could without a doubt have killed him quite swiftly if he was on the general level of previous 93s but IIRC what he said was that there's no doubt they will get caught in a trap trying to fight him if they don't immediately retreat, which implies it would not be an encounter he could end quickly but quite the opposite. Tou should of course have greater weight so between all these things the guy being a 93 sounds a little too low in my eyes.



I guess you're right - I just re-read Tou vs Rinbukun and Tou is quite clearly just a cut above and whenever he was serious, Rinbukun couldn't deal with his skill. I would say 94 or 95 would be fair. I'd assume with low strategy and leadership stats alongside that.

Although, I'm not sure if Tou would have killed Rinbukun so easily and been able to fend of Reiou. Yes he was a level above, but the fight did take time and that's what Tou couldn't have with Reiou's unit approaching. 

Here's Tou approaching Rinbukun for eg: 
 Candice Lilotto just lnds on her feet and steps on her face like a boss
 Candice Lilotto just lnds on her feet and steps on her face like a boss

I think Tou would have retreated vs Rinbukun also. Though as I said I do agree now that Ranbihaku will be a cut above Rinbukun.



> It was said that he compares to Renpa in destructive power. I take that to mean he was simply a very physically strong man just like Ryuusen in the HSU. Ryuusen could never rival Shin in actual combat as we know and Rinko was definitively the best fighter of Renpa's retainers.



I think comparing Kaishibou to Ryuusen is harsh. Remember Kaishibou was the leader of the heavenly kings. He was the 2nd in command. He clearly had little tactical ability as he struggled against Kanki, and whenever he was in combat no one got near him, so I think he could have been stronger than 91 suggests. 

Rinko was used more for penetrating defences than for 1 on 1 fights. Sure he may have been more skilful, but as for whether he was a better fighter overall than Kaishibou, I have my doubts. He may well have been, though. It's just we never really saw him do much, and the hype of being equal to Renpa in destruction, plus the fact that he destroyed Kanki's HQ, suggests he was much greater than we may think.

Hopefully we may get to see him + Kyouen again at some point at any rate.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 8, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Moubu only beat Kanmei, because of the adrenaline rush from seeing Mouten getting slashed.
> The fighting afterward isn't as impressive for me, since I got used to Shin's absurd recovery time.





convict said:


> Multiple people have stated as such and it is really perplexing. Read the fight again. Moubu had that fight in the bag regardless of his son.



He basically won at this point (which was before Mouten got slashed by Kanmei):


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Moubu had just smashed Kanmei's mace before Mouten and Karin's brother entered the scene. That one moment settled their fight. 

Knowing the types of characters that they are, if the two fought now in an even war, Moubu won win without much trouble in actual fact because they'd both be aware of each others reputation. Moubu will realise he's up against a guy who clashed with Ouki, Gaimou will realise he's up against the man who's probably regarded as the most dominant in China right now...

In fact I can picture Moubu shouting, then Gaimou responding by saying 'forget the war, me vs you, winner takes all'. The two clash, Moubu wins with very high difficulty. Qin win.

Thinking about it, Moubu is probably Gaimou's worst nightmare right now. God help Gaimou if he ends up telling Moubu that Ouki was actually scared of him 

Newsflash; Never talk of Qin's 6 in front of Moubu!


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

> What stats are you expecting Yuuren to get? I'm thinking if she can stomp the Kyoukai who was already up in the 90's, her combat ability must be about 94 minimum.



As I remember Zhao War Kyoukai had 94 _without_ her dance. Yuuren absolutely has to be somewhere in the higher end of the 90s if we are to assign a value to her based on objective evidence. That may sound high but theoretically there's actually nothing that goes against scaling Yuuren and by extension Kyoukai this high. It may be a gut feeling for several of us that it's too high but in truth Kyoukai was always a special case when it comes to power.



> I think comparing Kaishibou to Ryuusen is harsh. Remember Kaishibou was the leader of the heavenly kings. He was the 2nd in command. He clearly had little tactical ability as he struggled against Kanki



Why do you think it is harsh? The purpose of the comparison is simply to show that a man can very well have physical strength on par with or greater than individuals with much higher overall martial ability. He was presumably the leader because he had the best leadership (stats=tied with Kyouen) or overall ability (he does have the highest total stats of the 4). I don't see how struggling against _Kanki_ means he has "little tactical ability" either. He simply was a bad match-up for a General who is so devious and unorthodox.

If we look at the stats of the 4HK, Kaishibou is said to be better than Rinko in leadership and intelligence (strategy). Rinko is only superior to Kaishibou in strength. Clearly that doesn't mean physical strength or destructiveness in this case so I interpret it as overall martial ability. Rinko was definitely an extremely skillful fighter from what we saw. Why in your opinion would Hara give them stats that are the complete opposite of their actual abilities? I know not everyone values these author-given stats to the same degree and they aren't absolute, but in this case he would have created the 4HK as a group and assigned them different strengths and weaknesses, and it would be plain silly if he assigned them values that are completely and utterly inaccurate.


----------



## Veggie (Jun 8, 2014)

So chapter 390 out yet?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 8, 2014)

People obsess over the stat numbers a bit too much for my liking.
Sure they are a great indication, but they should still be taken with a grain of salt.

And you are right about the Moubu fight. Its been too long.
I thought he smashed Kanmei's weapon after the Mouten scene.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 8, 2014)

Vegetto Leonhart said:


> So chapter 390 out yet?



 



Kanki Is God said:


> New chapter's out!
> chapter out


----------



## Kanki (Jun 8, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> As I remember Zhao War Kyoukai had 94 _without_ her dance. Yuuren absolutely has to be somewhere in the higher end of the 90s if we are to assign a value to her based on objective evidence. That may sound high but theoretically there's actually nothing that goes against scaling Yuuren and by extension Kyoukai this high. It may be a gut feeling for several of us that it's too high but in truth Kyoukai was always a special case when it comes to power.



I'm thinking she'll probably get 94 for strength, 92 for strategy, no clue about leadership.



> Why do you think it is harsh? The purpose of the comparison is simply to show that a man can very well have physical strength on par with or greater than individuals with much higher overall martial ability. He was presumably the leader because he had the best leadership (stats=tied with Kyouen) or overall ability (he does have the highest total stats of the 4). I don't see how struggling against _Kanki_ means he has "little tactical ability" either. He simply was a bad match-up for a General who is so devious and unorthodox.



He never really showed any tactical ability. He was essentially halted by Kanki, and Genbou said he was weak against peculiar people like Kanki. Kanki is basically someone who plays mind games - in it's purest form, he uses crazy tactics, but they are still just that - tactics. 

I find it difficult to believe that a man who's destructive abilities are close to Renpa's, would be weaker than Rinko. I understand your comparison of Yuusen, but Yuusen's destructive power has never been likened to Shin's, for eg. Normally those who excel in destruction are pretty good at fighting themselves. 

Not just that, but Rinko isn't just a specialist fighter. His specialty is actually breaking through defences on his own. All of the Pillars seem to have a specialty - penetrating defences, destruction, tactics and a bowman. I would argue that Rinko was 3rd of the 4 Heavens behind Kaishibou + Kyouen so I don't see how he can be the best fighter as well.  



> If we look at the stats of the 4HK, Kaishibou is said to be better than Rinko in leadership and intelligence (strategy). Rinko is only superior to Kaishibou in strength. Clearly that doesn't mean physical strength or destructiveness in this case so I interpret it as overall martial ability. Rinko was definitely an extremely skillful fighter from what we saw. Why in your opinion would Hara give them stats that are the complete opposite of their actual abilities?
> 
> I know not everyone values these author-given stats to the same degree and they aren't absolute, but in this case he would have created the 4HK as a group and assigned them different strengths and weaknesses, and it would be plain silly if he assigned them values that are completely and utterly inaccurate.



The stats are the main obstacle tbh. You always make me change my mind ffs. Perhaps I'm underestimating Rinko, because I can't really use the "stats are BS" line, as Hara will have created Kaishibou and Rinko's stats at the same time and knowingly had Rinko above. 

I suppose now that I re-read it, I am underestimating Rinko just because he lost to Shin. In actual fact he should have beaten Shin if it wasn't for a distraction.

It does still seem weird to me though, having the most destructive member of the 4H, bot being the strongest in combat. The rule tends to me the opposite - see Moubu, Kanmei and so on.



Coruscation said:


> Agreed with those stats, about what I would have guessed too. I still think Gaimou is stronger in a fight than Shihaku when it really comes down it, he would be underwhelming as a general to me otherwise .



Probably true, though a few people suggested that Shihaku would actually be the worst enemy for someone like Moubu or Kanmei, purely because of the speed of his attacks. Everyone has to have a strength and weakness. 

Meant to respond to this earlier on.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2014)

> He never really showed any tactical ability.



What did Rinko show beyond piercing enemy defenses exceptionally well then? Which, as I recall, you have suggested before is a quality that doesn't really have to have anything to do with tactics at all.



> Kanki is basically someone who plays mind games - in it's purest form, he uses crazy tactics, but they are still just that - tactics.



But they are of an exceptionally high level. It's completely unfair to Kaishibou to imply that having trouble with him suggests he's bad at strategy and tactics. It's quite likely that any of the 4HK would have struggled to handle Kanki. Genbou, by far the best tactician among them, certainly did.



> I understand your comparison of Yuusen, but Yuusen's destructive power has never been likened to Shin's, for eg.



But he has been said to be physically stronger than him. I don't really understand why such a big deal is being made about this. Destructive power has a lot to do with physical strength. Kaishibou would clearly overwhelm Rinko in a contest of raw strength, but Rinko's speed and skill would overwhelm Kaishibou in turn.



> I would argue that Rinko was 3rd of the 4 Heavens behind Kaishibou + Kyouen so I don't see how he can be the best fighter as well.



That seems completely contradictory to me. If you think he was only ranked 3 out of 4 overall why doesn't it make sense for him to be the best fighter? He's worse at strategy and tactics than both of these two according to the only source that tells us who is better at it among the 4HK. He's worse at leadership than both according to the same, which would also be logical to surmise that he is worse than Kaishibou at even without the stats since Kaishibou was the leader of them. Rinko's most exceptional quality was that he was absolutely devastating when he led his army from the front and charged right into enemy defenses. That goes along well with exceptional personal strength. He was also the one sent out by Renpa to assassinate enemy commanders. That's a role that would be logical to give to your strongest fighter, who is most likely to succeed overall and most likely to get away should he be discovered.



> It does still seem weird to me though, having the most destructive member of the 4H, bot being the strongest in combat. The rule tends to me the opposite - see Moubu, Kanmei and so on.



I don't think it's weird in the least. Kyoukai definitely does not excel in destructiveness but she is a monster due to speed and skill. Fighting ability is comprised of so many factors and destructiveness or sheer physical might is only one. Kaishibou may be very destructive but it's plausible that he would struggle with a fast and nimble opponent such as Rinko.



> Probably true, though a few people suggested that Shihaku would actually be the worst enemy for someone like Moubu or Kanmei, purely because of the speed of his attacks. Everyone has to have a strength and weakness.



I can see him possibly giving Moubu and Kanmei more trouble than a glaive or sword user of comparable level would. I don't think they would lose though. Kanmei could just use his sword instead to have a bit better attack speed, and he certainly didn't seem to be slow considering how easily he defeated Oukotsu. I think Moubu and Kanmei are just too complete to have a _major_ weakness in terms of fighting ability even though they primarily excel in sheer strength and destructiveness. Especially in the case of Kanmei who carried two weapons with different attributes for different situations.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 9, 2014)

Holy fucknuts I was going to wait for TF release but this chap just went super saiyan. MJ is doing a pretty good job to honest. So hyped for this war. It's been fantastic seeing the development of the HSU and GHU, but I'm still waiting to see what Tou has planned. Surely he's not really going to leave this war up to Ouhon's plan?

Sorry it's been busy lately, hopefully back to contributing soon. Way to keep the thread rocking all - especially LW, KIG, Moe


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> What did Rinko show beyond piercing enemy defenses exceptionally well then? Which, as I recall, you have suggested before is a quality that doesn't really have to have anything to do with tactics at all.



He showed some pretty good tactical nous. He anaylysed that all wasn't as it seemed with Kanki's formation, and then he was able to navigate all his troops well on his battlefield.




> But he has been said to be physically stronger than him. I don't really understand why such a big deal is being made about this. Destructive power has a lot to do with physical strength. Kaishibou would clearly overwhelm Rinko in a contest of raw strength, but Rinko's speed and skill would overwhelm Kaishibou in turn.



It's not a big deal..
Obviously Rinko is more skillful and fast, I'm just talking overall, as in if the two fought tomorrow. Is Yuusen more destructive than Shin? He's physically stronger, but Shin will take more heads when charging into a group of people.



> That seems completely contradictory to me. If you think he was only ranked 3 out of 4 overall why doesn't it make sense for him to be the best fighter? He's worse at strategy and tactics than both of these two according to the only source that tells us who is better at it among the 4HK. He's worse at leadership than both according to the same, which would also be logical to surmise that he is worse than Kaishibou at even without the stats since Kaishibou was the leader of them. Rinko's most exceptional quality was that he was absolutely devastating when he led his army from the front and charged right into enemy defenses. That goes along well with exceptional personal strength. He was also the one sent out by Renpa to assassinate enemy commanders. That's a role that would be logical to give to your strongest fighter, who is most likely to succeed overall and most likely to get away should he be discovered.



Rinko was sent to take out the commanders because he was the best at sneaking through enemy lines. Kaishibou wouldn't have been able to perform such an assassination task whilst avoid getting caught. If Qin wanted to quietly eliminate enemy commanders in the night, who'd be the better choice; Kanki or Moubu?



> I don't think it's weird in the least. Kyoukai definitely does not excel in destructiveness but she is a monster due to speed and skill. Fighting ability is comprised of so many factors and destructiveness or sheer physical might is only one. Kaishibou may be very destructive but it's plausible that he would struggle with a fast and nimble opponent such as Rinko.



Yes but we're talking about an elite level destructive person. I'm not discrediting Rinko as much as I am praising Kaishibou. 91 is low-high tier stats, which doesn't fit with supposed top-level destructive ability. Destructiveness relies largely on combat ability, after all.



I can see him possibly giving Moubu and Kanmei more trouble than a glaive or sword user of comparable level would. I don't think they would lose though. Kanmei could just use his sword instead to have a bit better attack speed, and he certainly didn't seem to be slow considering how easily he defeated Oukotsu. I think Moubu and Kanmei are just too complete to have a _major_ weakness in terms of fighting ability even though they primarily excel in sheer strength and destructiveness. Especially in the case of Kanmei who carried two weapons with different attributes for different situations.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

Actually I have to concede the argument about Kaishibou vs Rinko. Just reading the current arc again and Kanou is supposedly more destructive and better at breaking through defenses than Shin/Ouhon, even though he's probably a weaker fighter.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 9, 2014)

So any theories how they plan on engaging Wei next time.
Because I cant see Ouhon nor Shin winning here.


----------



## Veggie (Jun 9, 2014)

Just read the latest chapter, hoy dayyuumm this Shi Haku guy is a monster. I don't see how Ouhon will beat him to be honest.


Good shit, can't wait for 391


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

Having re-read the arc today, I think Qin are winning. By the sounds of it, this area must be taken before Qin can begin the unification, so even if they lose they'd have to come back and try again, and unless it gets off paneled (possibly during the political war), I don't think Hara will show 2 separate wars for the same location. Both Ouhon and Shin are planning on defeating Gaimou/Shihaku 'tomorrow'. 

I'm thinking what will is happen is Tou will struggle against Reiou, Rukuomi might possibly die. Backup will arrive for Tou, and we'll see Qin defeat Wei. Who dies, who lives, I don't know. But I think Wei will retreat at some point. 

I'm struggling to picture it, but I don't see Qin losing the war.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

This is probably one of the most unpredictable arcs in the series so far, I've got no clue what's going to happen.
Qin shouldn't win the war, but at the same time it would seem that they might just do it.

I'm happy with whatever outcome as long as Shihaku and Gaimou aren't beaten by Shin and Ouhon in combat.


----------



## Orca (Jun 9, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Having re-read the arc today, I think Qin are winning. By the sounds of it, this area must be taken before Qin can begin the unification, so even if they lose they'd have to come back and try again, and unless it gets off paneled (possibly during the political war), I don't think Hara will show 2 separate wars for the same location. Both Ouhon and Shin are planning on defeating Gaimou/Shihaku 'tomorrow'.
> 
> I'm thinking what will is happen is Tou will struggle against Reiou, Rukuomi might possibly die. Backup will arrive for Tou, and we'll see Qin defeat Wei. Who dies, who lives, I don't know. But I think Wei will retreat at some point.
> 
> I'm struggling to picture it, but I don't see Qin losing the war.



Shihaku could turn on Rieou if it turns out he was involved in his sister's death.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

I also can't wait to see what Kanjou is actually capable of. 



lazorwalrus said:


> This is probably one of the most unpredictable arcs in the series so far, I've got no clue what's going to happen.
> Qin shouldn't win the war, but at the same time it would seem that they might just do it.
> 
> I'm happy with whatever outcome as long as Shihaku and Gaimou aren't beaten by Shin and Ouhon in combat.



My thoughts too. I don't even want there to be a tie. I forgot that Gaimou actually defeated serious Shin without too much trouble. Sure there were exchanges but Shin was sent flying twice, and the second one was one of those "right, I've had enough of this" moments from Gaimou, when he was told about Ten.

The gap is too big. I think Wei will need at least 3 elite Generals anyway for when the unification happens, so I have faith. Gaimou seemed a lot more impressive upon the re-read. 

The next month or so could be epic with Kanou, Rukuomi, Tou in action. 3 of my favorite's. Reiou and Ranbihaku seem cool too.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 9, 2014)

> He showed some pretty good tactical nous. He anaylysed that all wasn't as it seemed with Kanki's formation, and then he was able to navigate all his troops well on his battlefield.



The former isn't much to speak of for an experienced warrior. Kaishibou was said to have won a hundred battles as a commander in his own right, it is unthinkable to me he would not notice something being off. I don't recall this exact battlefield navigation but I would imagine it was part of his general defense piercing strategy.



> Rinko was sent to take out the commanders because he was the best at sneaking through enemy lines.



I was under the impression that it is actually because he was the strongest. Remember how Renpa explained that if Rinko says he only needs 300 men, he will get it done with 300 because he was once able to break through even Ouki's entire line of defense and land a hit on him. At that point, not to mention alongside seeing Rinko in action and Shin's comments on him, the reader was clearly being informed of his status as a true monster in combat. His specialty was piercing defenses, yes, but doing that on a battlefield is something entirely different than sneaking around quietly in the night.



> Yes but we're talking about an elite level destructive person. I'm not discrediting Rinko as much as I am praising Kaishibou. 91 is low-high tier stats, which doesn't fit with supposed top-level destructive ability.



Let's take a different example from the same person then. Kyoukai has genuine top tier speed but _very_ poor endurance. These stats disparities aren't half as crazy as you might think. Rankai is another example of strong but slow. You don't like the example of Ryuusen but imagine if Ryuusen was more talented as a commander and in the martial arts in his own right, while having the same physical strength. He could easily be more destructive than Shin (if he currently isn't) yet still inferior in overall combat.

Besides, I'm not certain that Renpa necessarily has top level destructiveness. Top level overall combat ability certainly (derived partially from weight, that Kaishibou wouldn't have the same level of) but I would have imagined that the highest level of destructiveness belongs to those who are at that level and also specialize in it, such as Moubu.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

I doubt Shihaku would turn on Reiou as Reiou couldn't possibly be stupid enough to reveal such critical information like his involvement with the whole thing with Shihaku's sister. 

Gohoumei and Reiou are smart enough to use a guy like Shihaku to their advantage and keep him in the dark.

Its not looking too good for Rokuomi tbh, but I think he will go out in a very epic way if he does go out. Kinda like Bakukoshin back in the day.


Renpa certainly has great destructive ability, he might not be on par with Moubu with it comes to just smashing things, but there's no way hes not top tier.
I mean he managed to crush his way up Mougou's fortress and broke that huge boulder that was coming at him.


----------



## Orca (Jun 9, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I doubt Shihaku would turn on Reiou as Reiou couldn't possibly be stupid enough to reveal such critical information like his involvement with the whole thing with Shihaku's sister.
> 
> Gohoumei and Reiou are smart enough to use a guy like Shihaku to their advantage and keep him in the dark.
> 
> Its not looking too good for Rokuomi tbh, but I think he will go out in a very epic way if he does go out. Kinda like Bakukoshin back in the day.



Ofcourse Rieou wouldn't directly tell Shihaku about that but Hara could make it happen by shihaku listening to a conversation between Rieou and someone else or a third party telling Shihaku the truth. 

Ofcourse if Rieou was indeed involved in the killing, there has to be a motive for why he did it. That could come into play as well.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

Just thought....Ouki probably wasn't efficient with his army as he could have been. With Ouki and Tou being together 90% of the time, they restrict themselves.

Imagine how much more successful the units under Doukin, Kanou or Rinbou have been if Tou led them? On the first day, Kanou in particular had major difficulty with Fuuki and Mangoku at different times. Shoumou also took out a lot of Rinbou's men.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

The commander should stay in the HQ and direct the battles. Not sure why Tou was always at Ouki's side, but I guess there was some reason to it.

But I guess it was only because the fight was the way it was, when Ouki and Tou fought against Chousou's army together, they pretty much would have stomped unless Houken was there. If Moubu wasn't there Tou would of probably led the vanguard.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

Ouki as lead General
Tou as defensive Vice General
Moubu as offensive Vice General

You'd struggle to create a better trio than that.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

Hakuki as lead general
Ouki leading the vanguard
Renpa leading the rest.

That would be about as god tier as you can get with a trio.

Given how all the big generals seem to have their vice generals and such, I wonder who did Hakuki have and will Shin get someone or who in the Hi Shin unit will be THE right hand man.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 9, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Ouki as lead General
> Tou as defensive Vice General
> Moubu as offensive Vice General
> 
> You'd struggle to create a better trio than that.



Chu:

Renpa as LG.
Karin as defensive VG.
Kanmei as offensive VG.



I'm not listing Kouen because we don't know jack shit about him.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 9, 2014)

I just hope Qin doesn't win, because of Wei infighting.
With the possibility of Reiou being involved with his sisters murder, I can easily see Shikaku turning on his comrades.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

Reiou would never reveal that and even if he did the word would never get to Shihaku. 

It would be absolutely retarded if Reiou just starts blabbering about it and somehow Shihaku manages to hear it and that's why Wei lose. That would be about as disappointing as Shin beating Gaimou.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 9, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Reiou would never reveal that and even if he did the word would never get to Shihaku.
> 
> It would be absolutely retarded if Reiou just starts blabbering about it and somehow Shihaku manages to hear it and that's why Wei lose. That would be about as disappointing as Shin beating Gaimou.



I can swallow Shin beating Gaimou far more then Ouhon killing Shihaku


----------



## Orca (Jun 9, 2014)

If Reiou was indeed involved in the killing, then Shihaku has to learn one way or another. Otherwise it would be an unecessary and unresolved plot point.

People are forgetting that we still don't know what Reiou's motives were. Hara can reveal the truth to Shihaku without Rieou randomly spouting out the truth. There are lots of ways he can do it.

I'm not saying I'm necessarily a fan of this theory. But it's definitely a possibility.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 9, 2014)

Exactly, Hara can make the reveal happen in a bunch of ways.
Like the cliche of having Reiou keep some item as a trophy.

Like I said, I hope this doesn't happen. But Hara introduced a bunch of things, that lead in this direction.
Hopefully they turn out to be red herrings, but for now the theory has enough to go on.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

I hope Hara will release new stats soon, even though the stats don't seem to be absolute, I still think its a pretty good way of keeping track of the progress that the characters make. 

I'd really wanna know where the 3 fire dragons stand and how much has the younger generation gone forward.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 9, 2014)

What I love about this arc is it tells us why the Qin 6 couldn't unify China, and how extreme of a task it truly is.  I mean Wei isn't going to be the only state with some hidden monsters.  

Just seems like such a lofty goal.  Shin truly is going to have to surpass Ouki, Renpa, Duke to even take over 1 state, let alone all of them


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> What I love about this arc is it tells us why the Qin 6 couldn't unify China, and how extreme of a task it truly is.  I mean Wei isn't going to be the only state with some hidden monsters.
> 
> Just seems like such a lofty goal.  Shin truly is going to have to surpass Ouki, Renpa, Duke to even take over 1 state, let alone all of them



Well to be fair, the Qin's 6 started from a way worse position than the current generation. They had to make Qin what it was before the series even started, they were the ones who made Qin a military superstate. 

Also they had to face people like the three great heavens and apparently these 7 fire dragons.
I'm pretty sure that if the Qin's 6 lived right now, they wouldn't have any more trouble uniting China than the current generation of Qin's military. In fact I'd say they would do it even better, at least untill Shin and the others grow up to truly be monsters like the giants of the past.


----------



## Orca (Jun 9, 2014)

How much of a strength would you guys predict for Gaimou?  97-99 seems to be the range for him.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

I doubt Gaimou is at 99, 97 seems more likely. If he truly is as strong as Moubu is, I'd say Shin wouldn't be standing right now.

Shihaku is probably equal to him in strength or maybe like a tiny bit below, but we saw that Shihaku is was actually dominating Ouhon harder than Gaimou dominated Shin. So I'd say Shihaku might even be the better fighter of the two.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 9, 2014)

I hope Moubu never faces Shikaku. 

This unification is already hard enough with who Qin has left


----------



## Orca (Jun 9, 2014)

> I doubt Gaimou is at 99, 97 seems more likely. If he truly is as strong as Moubu is, I'd say Shin wouldn't be standing right now.



Yeah I can agree with that. What about rinbihaku?  He seems pretty formidable. Probably a 95?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

Ranbihaku is probably somewhere in the 93-95 range, probably 94. I doubt Reiou would have someone with like Duke's level of strength as a mere sidekick so 95 seems kinda too much for a guy like him.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

To give some indication, Duke/Yotanway are 95, Kyou is 96, Renpa is 97, Ouki is 98, Moubu/Kanmei are 99 and Houken is 100+. 

Gaimou has been compared to both Renpa and Ouki, so I guess he'll either be 97 or 98.
Ranbihaku, I think will be 94.
Shihaku, probably 96. 

For what it's worth, Gokei and Gohoumei both have strategy of 97, so maybe that gives us an indication of the maximum stat a Fire Dragon will have. 

I'm not sure if we'll get stats for a while though. Hara gave all the coalition + completed some Qin commanders too (Ousen, Mougou) in the last one. Right now I guess we'd get:

Fuuki
Gaimou
Jyun Sou
Reiou
Ranbihaku
Shihaku
Kanjou
Yuuren

I'm not sure if that's enough characters. Perhaps he could add one or two of Duke's old army in the HSU, some Generals who fought in the rebellion and maybe some stats of characters we will get hints of. For eg he showed we first had Ousen's stats with only half mentioned IIRC.

Does anyone have a time scale of the 3 stats? Like which arc each was given?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

Kyou actually had 94 strength.

I think the last stats that we saw in the translations were before the Sanyou campaign started properly, but the latest stats in the databook are from before the coalition war started and it had the coalition generals.
Not sure why wasn't it in the translations. It might be that these stats only come with the volumes so we will never get them in a chapter so we'd have to wait for someone to put them online. 

I think we will get stats in like the next volume or two since that should be around the Seikyou arc and the beginning of this one. I hope I can find them somewhere if they do come.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 9, 2014)

IIRC Kyou was 94. Tou is 96.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 9, 2014)

Seriously, these numbers are only a step away from tier discussions.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Kyou actually had 94 strength.



So she did. Karin also has 94 FTR. It's a little surprising that Kyou doesn't have a bit more since she was largely a combatant. If she really was weaker than what Duke was, I guess Houken at the time of Kyou's death would have been about 96 or 97.

Do you guys consider 95 to be the bottom of the top, or the top of the group below the top? I always saw Duke's combat ability as being very high, but not quite elite. But then it was said that only a handful can match him in China so perhaps I should have 95 as my bottom number in the top bracket?



> I think the last stats that we saw in the translations were before the Sanyou campaign started properly, but the latest stats in the databook are from before the coalition war started and it had the coalition generals.
> Not sure why wasn't it in the translations. It might be that these stats only come with the volumes so we will never get them in a chapter so we'd have to wait for someone to put them online.
> 
> I think we will get stats in like the next volume or two since that should be around the Seikyou arc and the beginning of this one. I hope I can find them somewhere if they do come.



Well, hopefully we get them soon. Hara could totally tease us too - I think Hakuki had "Unknown/100/Unknown" as his stats, so we get get a tease at Kouen. We could also get Oukotsu as well. 

I never understand this chapter/volume business. So they release weekly in Japan, like 16 page magazines, whilst also releasing huge volumes of 'x' amount of chapters? Even with other series, no one has ever explained it to me. Apparently we get OP chapters before even Japanese readers get then for eg.

Just realised that technically, Kyouen has a combat ability of 97. Well his actual combat ability was 90, but his 'extra' grade was 'bow-97'. IMO, he's pretty damn underrated.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Kyou actually had 94 strength.



So she did. Karin also has 94 FTR. It's a little surprising that Kyou doesn't have a bit more since she was largely a combatant. If she really was weaker than what Duke was, I guess Houken at the time of Kyou's death would have been about 96 or 97.

Do you guys consider 95 to be the bottom of the top, or the top of the group below the top? I always saw Duke's combat ability as being very high, but not quite elite. But then it was said that only a handful can match him in China so perhaps I should have 95 as my bottom number in the top bracket?



> I think the last stats that we saw in the translations were before the Sanyou campaign started properly, but the latest stats in the databook are from before the coalition war started and it had the coalition generals.
> Not sure why wasn't it in the translations. It might be that these stats only come with the volumes so we will never get them in a chapter so we'd have to wait for someone to put them online.
> 
> I think we will get stats in like the next volume or two since that should be around the Seikyou arc and the beginning of this one. I hope I can find them somewhere if they do come.



Well, hopefully we get them soon. Hara could totally tease us too - I think Hakuki had "Unknown/100/Unknown" as his stats, so we get get a tease at Kouen. We could also get Oukotsu as well. 

I never understand this chapter/volume business. So they release weekly in Japan, like 16 page magazines, whilst also releasing huge volumes of 'x' amount of chapters? Even with other series, no one has ever explained it to me. Apparently we get OP chapters before even Japanese readers get then for eg.

Just realised that technically, Kyouen has a combat ability of 97. Well his actual combat ability was 90, but his 'extra' grade was 'bow-97'. IMO, he's pretty damn underrated.



ClandestineSchemer said:


> Seriously, these numbers are only a step away from tier discussions.



It's only for general interest. It's not like we spend every day talking about them. In fact stats rarely get used. I for one find them interesting though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 9, 2014)

> Do you guys consider 95 to be the bottom of the top, or the top of the group below the top? I always saw Duke's combat ability as being very high, but not quite elite. But then it was said that only a handful can match him in China so perhaps I should have 95 as my bottom number in the top bracket?



Yeah, 95 seems like the low top tier level.




> Well, hopefully we get them soon. Hara could totally tease us too - I think Hakuki had "Unknown/100/Unknown" as his stats, so we get get a tease at Kouen. We could also get Oukotsu as well.


Doubt we will see anything from Kouen since we haven't even seen his design. More stats from the 6GG would be nice tho.



> I never understand this chapter/volume business. So they release weekly in Japan, like 16 page magazines, whilst also releasing huge volumes of 'x' amount of chapters? Even with other series, no one has ever explained it to me. Apparently we get OP chapters before even Japanese readers get then for eg.



I think the volumes come out like every 3 months and each volume has 10 chapters + all the extra pages and such. So new volume should be out next month I think.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 9, 2014)

Remember the days when we'd get a new volume every other week? 

I don't think TF show volume covers now, which is a shame. Maybe MJ will.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 9, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Remember the days when we'd get a new volume every other week?
> 
> I don't think TF show volume covers now, which is a shame. Maybe MJ will.



Well, from what LW said, the covers were released with the digital edition. Right now we are using HQ scans. We'll get the cover eventually, unfortunately it won't be able to keep up with the HQ scans.

I'm waiting for a full Ousen color page.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 9, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Seriously, these numbers are only a step away from tier discussions.



I find the Kingdom stats to be as reliable as Shin's tactical abilities, but I don't see what's wrong with tier threads considering they are usually based on actual manga feats. Now for a series like FT, I'd understand why a tier thread would be troublesome, but Kingdom is quite stable/fair when it comes to power levels/abilities.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 9, 2014)

It's also a pretty big difference when the numbers come from the author himself than when fans sit around trying to capture the dynamic of a series in crude numbers. I do wonder what our perceptions of the characters would be like if we didn't know about them at all or they didn't exist. I personally can't zone them out because it just doesn't make any sense to me that Hara would sit around assigning numbers that are the complete opposite of what he actually intends (author intent being everything), though I can certainly understand the lack of consistency over time since it's a long running series and all.


----------



## Mystic Ballad (Jun 10, 2014)

It's good time for Ousen to recruit Shihaku


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

I think as time goes on, I am beginning to see that the stats may not be as misleading as I thought. The problem is there's only 3 (and occasionally a 4th) figures, so certain aspects aren't taken into account. For instance Kanou is only 86, and this is a person who's more destructive than Shin. It also doesn't take experience into account - Choutou's stats are bang average by any General's standards and yet he was definitely far above the likes of Rinbou, Domon and co. Versatility isn't either (which is important, as this arc showed). Likewise, aspects like Gouhoumei's engineering, Seikai's poison, Kanki's unique style and 'weight' aren't taken into account. 

So it's not as if the stats are completely irregular - like in Naruto for example where Hidan has the same Ninjutsu score as Itachi. It's just they don't tell the whole story. There's nothing wrong in using them, if they're in the right context. You can't base your rating of a character on the overall stat number, but you can base your opinion in a specific area, i.e combat strength, leadership and strategy, on their stat number.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

I think when they talk about destructive ability, they also count in the unit that's around the main guy. Like Duke Hyou had his own men to boost his own destructive abilities, Kaishibou had his really big own elite troops and Kanou has Ouki's veterans who have seen the toughest of battlefields.

Why would you say that Choutou was FAR above someone like Rinbou? You don't think Rinbou would have been able to do the same under similar circumstances? Choutou was by all means average in everything, I doubt he would of been able to beat someone like Rokuomi in single combat.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 10, 2014)

Martial Might update:

1. Houken
2. Ouki
3. Shihaku
4. Moubu
5. Renpa
6. Kanmei
7. Tou
8. Gaimou
9. Duke
10. Bajio


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Martial Might update:
> 
> 1. Houken
> 2. Ouki
> ...



Too soon to put Shihaku above the likes of Moubu, Kanmei or Renpa imo. I don't think Ouhon would be alive right now if he was fighting Kanmei or Moubu.

And Bajio is weaker than Yotanwa actually, at least Yotanwa beat him a few times.
I'd put someone like Yuuren at 10th or maybe Kyoukai if she can still utilize the deepest dance.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I think when they talk about destructive ability, they also count in the unit that's around the main guy. Like Duke Hyou had his own men to boost his own destructive abilities, Kaishibou had his really big own elite troops and Kanou has Ouki's veterans who have seen the toughest of battlefields.
> 
> Why would you say that Choutou was FAR above someone like Rinbou? You don't think Rinbou would have been able to do the same under similar circumstances? Choutou was by all means average in everything, I doubt he would of been able to beat someone like Rokuomi in single combat.



Being a Great General, Choutou can seemingly lead an army of 100k plus without much issue I assume. Someone like Rinbou might be able to lead his own army, but can he motivate and inspire people who've never actually met him to the same extent? 

Being experienced as he is, he'll have seen all kinds of warfare, meaning it'll be easier for him to recognise strategic moves. You could be smarter than I am, but if we're up against the same obstacle and I've faced it before whilst you haven't, I'll know how to adapt quicker than you will. 

Plus he seems to be pretty good at "deathly battles", which Hara went out of his way to praise Kanou for in the databook (as well as a quote from Kanou himself), and was able to break through Han's defence pretty well. He's probably quite well-rounded also. Rukuomi is 'just' a hot headed fighter that's never shown any ability in any other area.

Rukuomi, Kanou and co might go on to become as good as Choutou, but right now if it was Choutou + 100k vs Rukomi + 100k, I'd back Choutou every time. Though maybe 'by far' was an overstatement.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> And Bajio is weaker than Yotanwa actually, at least Yotanwa beat him a few times.
> I'd put someone like Yuuren at 10th or maybe Kyoukai if she can still utilize the deepest dance.



Agreed with Yotanwa, but I had to put my beloved Bajio in there. Surprised you didn't mention Rankai.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Martial Might update:
> 
> 1. Houken
> 2. Ouki
> ...



1. Houken
2. Ouki
3. Moubu
4. Kanmei
5. Renpa
6. Gaimou
7. Tou
8. Shihaku
9. Duke
10. Yuuren

Leaving out Yotanwa and Rankai (who's stat is probably the one I struggle to believe most). Kyoukai is hard to judge. The fact that in her deepest state she destroyed Yuuren, who had previously dominated normal-dance Kyoukai, suggests she could well be right up that list. Impossible to judge really. It would have made it easier if Kyoukai with the deepest state still had difficulty in killing Yuuren.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

I doubt really any general would be able to lead 100k by themselves. All of them have their lieutenants, vice generals and such. Choutou could probably motivate them more with this status as a great general, but that's a bit unfair of a comparison as Rinbou has always been a third tier commander under monsters like Ouki and Tou, it has never been his job to motivate people. 
Then again all of Ouki's commanders did quite well with the random militia they had when they fought against the Zhao army, I'm sure Rinbou and such are quite capable at motivating people themselves.

You shouldn't underestimate the experience that Ouki's commanders must have, following around the monstrous bird of Qin will more than likely put you into every kind of situations. Sure Choutou is far older than Ouki's commanders, but I have no doubt that when it comes to actual combat they have seen just as much, Ouki was known for randomly appearing on battlefields out of the blue after all, hes probably fought more than anyone expect for Duke. Only area where Choutou definitely has more experience is in actually being the commander in chief and calling the main shots, which would give him an advantage if these two were leading armies.

Yeah, Choutou would probably win if it came down to a battle with him as a commander against Rokuomi or Rinbou, but he definitely wouldn't have it easy. But if both of them were just vice generals in some army and leading 20k against each other, it would go both ways.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I doubt really any general would be able to lead 100k by themselves. All of them have their lieutenants, vice generals and such. Choutou could probably motivate them more with this status as a great general, but that's a bit unfair of a comparison as Rinbou has always been a third tier commander under monsters like Ouki and Tou, it has never been his job to motivate people.



I think all commanders must somehow motivate whoever's beneath them. Choutou's commanders seemed especially loyal to him as well - more so than the average General in any case. He appeared to command more respect than his ability suggests.



> Then again all of Ouki's commanders did quite well with the random militia they had when they fought against the Zhao army, I'm sure Rinbou and such are quite capable at motivating people themselves.



Most of them yeah. Though Rinbou + his army were getting dominated by Shoumou and Kanou's army was decimated by Fuuki (who's death meant that battle was a 'draw', according to Zhao's commanders). Most of Kanou's army was wiped out so he joined Rukuomi, IIRC.



> You shouldn't underestimate the experience that Ouki's commanders must have, following around the monstrous bird of Qin will more than likely put you into every kind of situations. Sure Choutou is far older than Ouki's commanders, but I have no doubt that when it comes to actual combat they have seen just as much, Ouki was known for randomly appearing on battlefields out of the blue after all, hes probably fought more than anyone expect for Duke. Only area where Choutou definitely has more experience is in actually being the commander in chief and calling the main shots, which would give him an advantage if these two were leading armies.



I mostly agree, though remember Ouki strategically places his commanders, so we don't know how much experience the likes of Rukuomi, Kanou have in areas that don't involve simple fighting. (Ryuukoku does though). As Ouhon said, Kanou struggles to adapt. He's one dimensional. Put Choutou and Kanou in a war, and Kanou will struggle in any situation that isn't an all out 'brawl'. 

Choutou will no doubt have experience in every field. He may not have more experience in combat than Rukuomi, but he'll definitely have experience in virtually every other field. In a way, you could say Choutou could be a General who will have every ability that the Ouki-commanders collectively have, though not to a particularly high level. He has no clear area of which to exploit.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

> I mostly agree, though remember Ouki strategically places his commanders, so we don't know how much experience the likes of Rukuomi, Kanou have in areas that don't involve simple fighting. (Ryuukoku does though)


Given that Ouki has been through all kinds of battles, I'm certain that his commanders have also seen just about everything. Like their defensive battles against Renpa and such, they should have experience in just about every kind of battle. They have seen Ouki in action, they must of picked quite a few tricks from him.
At least the top 3 of his commanders should be all around at least decent. Top 3 being Rokuomi, Rinbou and Ryuukoku.



> you could say Choutou could be a General who will have every ability that the Ouki-commanders have combined, though not to a particularly high level.



Pretty much this. If you'd put like Ryuukoku and Rokuomi vs Choutou, I wouldn't be surprised if Ryuukoku and Rokuomi won without Ryuukoku even having to fight himself. 
Rokuomi is quite strong and Ouhon had no trouble with him being one of the attackers so he should have some adaptability as well.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

Ranking  the alive strategic Generals is pretty hard. Riboku, Shouheikun, Ousen, Kanki, Karin, Renpa, Gohoumei, Tou, Reiou.

I attempted it, but kept disagreeing. So I'll let someone else have a go


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

1. Riboku
2.Ousen
3.Shouheikun
4.Renpa due to his experience, easily the most experienced general atm.
5.Gohoumei
6.Karin
7.Reiou
8.Kanki
9.Tou(?)
10.Rankai (boeeh)

I put Ousen above Shouheikun since we haven't seen Shouheikun on the battlefield yet. They are probably equal, but since Ousen has shown more feats I put him as number 2.


----------



## Tempproxy (Jun 10, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> 1. Houken
> 2. Ouki
> 3. Moubu
> 4. Kanmei
> ...



How is Houken superior to Ouki when he couldn't beat him?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

Tempproxy said:


> How is Houken superior to Ouki when he couldn't beat him?



Houken has improved since then, and Ouki had the additional weight of Kyou's death which enabled him to essentially reach beyond his level. Wouldn't surprise me if Ouki would still beat him in a fight though, for the same reason.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

I'd say Ousen and Shouheikun are on par in their overall ability but Shouheikun is more of a strategist who sits back and makes larger plans than an on-field commander. So as a General specifically, Ousen is better, but probably only by a slight amount even then.

Maybe my perception of the Army Commanders is off but I've never really imagined them to be at the caliber of someone like Choutou or Mougu (despite these two being the weakest Great Generals we've seen). Remember it was stated that Renpa's 4HK are "miles ahead" of Ouki's commanders and while the 4HK were real monsters, I don't feel that they would so easily outclass the likes of Choutou. A lesser General like Domon (or was it Eibi?) was dominated by Rinko but Choutou shouldn't be such easy prey. The old man may not have had much talent but he made up for it with experience.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 10, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> 1. Riboku
> 2.Ousen
> 3.Shouheikun
> 4.Renpa due to his experience, easily the most experienced general atm.
> ...



Nice list, but totally disagree with Renpa. How can Renpa be bellow Ousen, when Renpa was able to completely read him? And we all know how hard it is to read Ousen. Such a feat should definitely put him above no?


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

Ousen was actually the one who read Renpa and planned the furthest ahead. He prepared his mountain fort for the specific event that Renpa would show up. From the moment he seized the terrain that he did at the start of the battle he predicted that Renpa would predict everything that subsequently went down the way it did, what with holding back his strength initially, then contesting over the Wei Di, and planned in accordance with that by building a giant fortress that he knew Renpa would not be able to spend enough resources to take.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Ousen was actually the one who read Renpa and planned the furthest ahead. He prepared his mountain fort for the specific event that Renpa would show up. From the moment he seized the terrain that he did at the start of the battle he predicted that Renpa would predict everything that subsequently went down the way it did, what with holding back his strength initially, then contesting over the Wei Di, and planned in accordance with that by building a giant fortress that he knew Renpa would not be able to spend enough resources to take.



This and the fact that Ousen was the first one to take control over the strategic position even before the battle begun. Renpa is really damn good and has a lot of experience, but Ousen is specially focused on tactics more than anything and he too has gained experience so I'd say that Ousen is slightly above Renpa when it comes to strategy.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Ousen was actually the one who read Renpa and planned the furthest ahead. *He prepared his mountain fort for the specific event that Renpa would show up.* From the moment he seized the terrain that he did at the start of the battle he* predicted* that Renpa would predict everything that subsequently went down the way it did, what with holding back his strength initially, then contesting over the Wei Di, and planned in accordance with that by building a giant fortress *that he knew Renpa would not be able to spend enough resources to take.*



Absolutely nothing in the manga suggested that Ousen would even dream of Renpa showing up there. On the other hand, the whole situation, how Renpa compared him to Hakuki, his way of retreating and Ousen's inability to interfere on the battlefield from that point on, suggest that it was simply Ousen's back up plan in case something went wrong. Because Ousen is exactly that type of strategist. He has a back up plan even for his back up plan. In case his initial plan isn't going well he simply calmly retreats to his back up plan. 

And predicted? This is Ousen we are talking about. The man who only fights a battle he can surely win. If he did predict that Renpa will show up there, he would surely make the plan in a fashion, where he would fuck Renpa over.

And the last part is also untrue and very misleading. From Renpa's reaction, one could only see that it was definitely not a very bad situation for him. Actually he was about to try going for it. Only reason he stopped is, that he realized that from the whole battle point of view it's completely unnecessary. 

Of course, in the end, it was Ousen's position which made Wei retreat, but that was only because Kanki was able to destroy Wei's HQ. And it's clear that Ousen and Kanki aren't exactly individuals who would sit together before the battle and plan this things, agreeing on what the other one will do. 

If Kanki didn't take the Wei HQ, situation would actually be reversed and Qin would be the one in deep shit. Of course, Ousen would still be safe inside his fortress.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

MightiestRooster said:


> Absolutely nothing in the manga suggested that Ousen would even dream of Renpa showing up there



Ch.127

Checkmate? =/



> If he did predict that Renpa will show up there, he would surely make the plan in a fashion, where he would fuck Renpa over.



He didn't do that because he can never be sure of being able to beat Renpa, and he does not wish to fight a battle he can't be sure of winning. That's why he created a big-ass fortress to retreat to should Renpa show up. To make sure he saves his own ass, while still gaining the maximum strategic value to the overall battle that is congruent with not putting himself at too much of a risk.



> From Renpa's reaction, one could only see that it was definitely not a very bad situation for him.



Except it was pointed out twice that trying to slay Ousen within his mountain fort would be a difficult task. Not a task Renpa was likely to afford bogging himself down in. Ousen made a very calculated move to combine the safeguarding of his own life while still contributing to the battle as a whole. But when the enemy is Renpa you simply can't have the whole cake, even if you happen to be Ousen.



> If Kanki didn't take the Wei HQ, situation would actually be reversed and Qin would be the one in deep shit. Of course, *Ousen would still be safe inside his fortress.*



That's the point.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

Ousen definitely did dream about Renpa showing up since he had the fort already prepared. I guess he wasn't absolutely certain and thus went forward with the plan to destroy Kyouen, but he definitely was prepared for the fact that Renpa might just appear. 

Ousen cares first and foremost about his own life, that's his goal in the battles. Even winning the war doesn't matter to him unless hes safe. I guess he had some faith in Kanki since this guy can almost see the future, but yeah Ousen pretty much left the rest of the army to do the job for him.

But anyway, I think that Ousen at least by now has surpassed Renpa in strategy, he really impressed me during the coalition war. But the difference is very minimal if there really is any.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 10, 2014)

Unfortunately, I have to leave now, but I'll make sure to respond when I"ll come back.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

That's okay but do keep in mind I'm not arguing about whether Renpa is better than Ousen in strategy or not. It's simply a fact that in this particular scene Ousen had predicted that Renpa would show up. The manga itself states it.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

Looks like I've been relegated to 3rd place in the 'Kingdom Memory' league. 

I'd like to see where it was said that Renpa's 4HK are well beyond Ouki's commanders. I can't remember that, though it's something pretty much everyone has always thought anyway, Tou aside. There is a reason Ouki's commanders fought Mangoku and co whilst the 4HK clashed with Ousen and Kanki, Rinko aside.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

It was said here by Mouten, who tends to be pretty smart and well informed, and his statement is solidly backed up by other information regarding the Heavenly Kings I would say.

Ch.127


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

I always considered Ousen vs Renpa to be a tie, in that it was unfinished. Ousen was never going to be the aggressor and Renpa decided to leave the battle to challenge Mougou. Ousen's plan was influential in part due to other fortunes - namely the defeats of Genbou and Rinko, so I wouldn't say Ousen tactically out-fought Renpa. Ousen was never really Renpa's target. Had Ousen been the lead General, we might have seen a different attitude. Renpa did also say that the biggest problem in that war was Rinko's defeat - if that hadn't happened, Wei could have won the war.

Their strategies are different though. Ousen is obviously a defensive/counter punching god, whereas Renpa is everything. In fact whilst Ousen created plans specifically for Ousen, Renpa was thinking on the spot and took charge of the entire battlefield - it was he who made the order to swap Genbou with Kaishibou for e.g.. 



Coruscation said:


> Maybe my perception of the Army Commanders is off but I've never really imagined them to be at the caliber of someone like Choutou or Mougu (despite these two being the weakest Great Generals we've seen). Remember it was stated that Renpa's 4HK are "miles ahead" of Ouki's commanders and while the 4HK were real monsters, I don't feel that they would so easily outclass the likes of Choutou. A lesser General like Domon (or was it Eibi?) was dominated by Rinko but Choutou shouldn't be such easy prey. The old man may not have had much talent but he made up for it with experience.



Well I think the 4HK are pretty underrated themselves. Renpa said of Kyouen "Even I had my hands burnt numerous times when going up against him" (I assume Kyouen was in another state?). Kyouen also had battles against 4 of Qin's 6, and by the sounds of it was powerful enough to do some serious damage to Kyou's army whenever they faced.

I'd put all of the Heavenly Kings above the Zhao group of Generals - Rihaku, Fuuki, Shoumou, Chousou and so on. Plus, as I said before Ouki's commanders do seem quite one dimensional, and of the two weaker ones, Doukin was one shot by Rinbukun whilst Rinbou could barely defend against Shoumou. 

Doukin + Rinbou were probably around Domon/Eibi level. 
Rukuomi/Kanou/Ryuukoku are around the Zhao General -group level.

I'd probably put the 4HK even above the likes of Rinbukun and Keisha.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

I'd say Rinbukun and Keisha are around the 4HK tier. Even Riboku said that Keisha has actually beaten him in simulation battles and Rinbukun was no weakling, he oneshot Doukin.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

I feel Keisha > Rinbukun. Keisha was about to burn Duke Hyou's hands pretty good before Shin's suddenly awakening instincts saved the day and there's the thing with beating Riboku in simulations (even though Riboku knew he would never lose a real battle). Rinbukun on the other hand got totally demolished by Tou who is on a similar level as Duke Hyou.

I agree the 4HK are impressive as hell though. I can't stop rereading the 2nd Wei war arc because of how awesome the characters in that arc were. It's such a pity Renpa retired and took Kyouen/Kaishibou with him.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

Yes that would be comparable, as well as what we saw him accomplish against a man of 6GG caliber with our own eyes. I don't want to be too hard on Rinbukun but I don't quite feel that any of the pieces of hype surrounding him really measures up to that. If anything he seemed like a relatively average, strength-focused Chu General, but (just like he said) average Generals in Chu are exceptionally strong compared to other states because the standards are so high. It would still take more than an average one to match up to a 4HK or Keisha who is probably Zhao's second greatest General right now.

And yeah I wouldn't want to be a foot soldier trying to charge into an army led by Shouheikun. He'd probably make lesser commanders trip over their own feet.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

Shunshinkun also has quite the mind if he has 98 in intelligence, he was one of the 2 people who realized Shouheikun's plan when Qin took Sanyou. 

Too bad we didn't see him take command of Kanmei's army, he should be quite capable since hes the prime minister and the head of military affairs for Chu.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I feel Keisha > Rinbukun. Keisha was about to burn Duke Hyou's hands pretty good before Shin's suddenly awakening instincts saved the day and there's the thing with beating Riboku in simulations (even though Riboku knew he would never lose a real battle). Rinbukun on the other hand got totally demolished by Tou who is on a similar level as Duke Hyou.



To be fair, Keisha had 120k vs 40k. I wouldn't say Rinbukun was demolished - there was a proper fight there. If anything it was closer than what Duke vs Houken was.

I would put Keisha a little ahead, though.



> I agree the 4HK are impressive as hell though. I can't stop rereading the 2nd Wei war arc because of how awesome the characters in that arc were. It's such a pity Renpa retired and took Kyouen/Kaishibou with him.



It's the arc I find easiest to go back and re-read. I think it was the best written too. Fortunately there is nothing reported in history regarding what Renpa did whilst in Chu, and Renpa himself said he would never retire after his loss. Add those to Chu's king suggesting Renpa go out and fight, and there's every reason to suggest we might see Renpa and his HK's in action at some point. Possibly during the Chu vs Qin war?

It would be an easy way out for Hara too as we already know all about him, so he could have a lesser battle against one of Qin's Generals (assuming Shin vs Kouyoku is the main event). Chu will probably have about 6 top Generals in that war so it'll be hard for Hara to juggle all those characters, especially if they need introducing.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

Indeed but Duke held the fort against Gohoumei with even worse numbers, and Houmei is certainly no slouch either. I don't know, Tou vs Rinbukun might have seemed closer because it was less polarizing. Both seemed to go full force at once and Tou consciously chose to take all those mace swings head-on. It took a while for Duke Hyou to start coming at Houken with his full strength and he managed to leave a nice parting gift when he did.

Hmm yes Renpa did actually say that he'll never retire now that I think of it. But he also said that a Chu army is too proud for him to command, so I guess he'd have to use the troops under himself and Kyouen/Kaishibou, which wouldn't be very many at this point I assume. But it does raise the possibility of seeing them in action again.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

I think it's telling that Shunshinkun had a lot of respect for Kanmei and Karin, yet showed nothing towards Rinbukun. In fact he regularly insulted him, even to his face.

I want to know how many top Generals Chu have, as of this moment. They'll have Hakurei/Kouyoku in time, but aside from that they can't only have Kouen + Karin as mega-elites (not counting Renpa for a sec). At the same time though, there's only so much panel time for them to show off their Generals when the war happens. 

Perhaps the final war will be a little like Zhao vs Qin, on a larger scale. So instead of Kanou's army vs Fuuki's army, it'll be like Tou vs Karin. During the Zhao vs Qin war, most got panel time.

Chousou, Houken, Riboku, Fuuki all got a good amount of panel time.
Shoumou, Rihaku got a bit, but it was mostly hype.
Kyosonru got nothing lol.

I suppose if Qin vs Chu was say, 1.5x the size of that arc, there would be more than enough time to show us all the Chu Generals. There's enough for 6 elites anyway. I've literally talked myself 180 degrees around whilst posting this, and ended up arguing with myself but what the hell...


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

Seeing as we've lost Duke, Ouki, Choutou and Mougou and aren't half way through yet (didn't Hara say 40%?), there's no way Qin are going into a final war with 9 Great Generals. I say 9 because we have Moubu, Kanki, Ousen, Tou, Shouheikun Shin, Mouten, Ouhon and Kyoukai who will be at that rank, or at least that level.

Seeing as we have bloody wars against Han, Wei, Yan, Qi and Chu to go through, plus there's the inevitable return of Yotanwa at some point, I can't see how at least 3 or 4 of those 9 won't be dead by the time we kick start Chu vs Qin.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

Well the Chu king did talk about 'Kouen and such'' so I guess Kouen has his own guys and some other generals as well. I really wish Hara would just show this guy to us already. It was said that Karin was the number 2 general in Chu now that Kanmei is dead so I guess there are people who are below her.
Kanmei's commanders seemed to survive, tho they might have been executed later on.



> Seeing as we've lost Duke, Ouki, Choutou and Mougou and aren't half way through yet (didn't Hara say 40%?), there's no way Qin are going into a final war with 9 Great Generals. I say 9 because we have Moubu, Kanki, Ousen, Tou, Shouheikun Shin, Mouten, Ouhon and Kyoukai who will be at that rank, or at least that level.
> 
> Seeing as we have bloody wars against Han, Wei, Yan, Qi and Chu to go through, plus there's the inevitable return of Yotanwa at some point, I can't see how at least 3 or 4 of those 9 won't be dead by the time we kick start Chu vs Qin.



I honestly wish I could speculate on these things with you lol.


----------



## Orca (Jun 10, 2014)

Anyone think Seikyou should have lived? I don't know if he was killed to follow the actual history but I think he was a far more interesting character than his wife is.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 10, 2014)

Yeah, Seikyou was enjoyable and his progress would have been really interesting, but since he was destined to go out like that there's not much Hara could do. If he had him live, every scene around him would have been fictional and it would have been hard to tie him to the story later on as he wouldn't have been supposed to be there.


----------



## Orca (Jun 10, 2014)

I guess so.

I love when Seikyou trash talks Ryofui in contrast to Sei who until recently wasn't very verbal against Ryo.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

Seikyou died a good death. I don't think he was going to get any more interesting, so he'd have either stalled or become boring. He died before out-living his sell by date, which he would have done if he played a big part for a long time.


----------



## Orca (Jun 10, 2014)

When he was about to die, Hara gave us little tid bits of Seikyou's loyalty and that he too cared about certain people. But if his death wasn't imminent, we would have still been in the loop whether he was loyal or not and what was going through his mind. I think that would've kept the interest in his character.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 10, 2014)

> And just like it's Renpa's opinion that Ousen had the fort prepared in case of him appearing, it was also Kyouen's opinion that Renpa completely saw through Ousen's initial strategy



And these things are both true. Hara set up the entire sequence as a way of continually surprising the reader with these commanders' ability to predict future scenarios. First the reader was made to believe that Kyouen saw through Heki. Then we got to know that Ousen actually saw through Kyouen. Then it turned out Renpa actually had predicted that Ousen would see through Kyouen and try trap him in the Wei Di. But lastly, it turned out that Ousen had gone as far as to predict that Renpa would appear. All of these things are true because that's the way the story presented it and they were outright told to the reader.



> So from this, one can conclude that Ousen didn't actually expect Renpa's appearance, at least not that much.



Perhaps he was simply strongly affected by the appearance of a titan like Renpa like everyone else. Maybe Kyouen suddenly saying that when it seemed he had been defeated took him off-guard. Or he didn't expect Renpa to turn up that quickly. Ousen was definitely taken aback at that exact moment, but to say he had no expectation of it happening does not follow.



> But whether Ousen being prepared for Renpa's appearance proves that he saw through Renpa is questionable.



That is just a question of semantics in my eyes. What's fact is that Ousen definitely prepared a giant fuck-off fort solely for the appearance of Renpa. He accounted for the scenario very strongly and there is nothing suggesting he considered it an _improbable_ scenario. Perhaps he did not consider it the _most_ likely scenario, who knows, but his surprise lasted only for the briefest moments. The manga suggests with Renpa's wording "he predicted that I would turn up" that Ousen did most likely consider it a highly plausible scenario. If Renpa's interpretation of the events is not good enough evidence, what is? It seems odd to discredit Renpa's reading of Ousen's intentions when your main argument is how flawlessly Renpa was able to read Ousen's intentions.



> you originally stated that Renpa would not be able to take on the fort, and to that I reacted that nothing suggests it. Actually a "difficult task" means that it can be achieved but with great cost in return



No, I stated he would not be able to spend the resources to take it. Which is exactly what you wrote in your second sentence here: that it can be done, technically, but with great cost. A cost that it was clear from Kyouen's reactions they did not want to pay under those circumstances -- but nor did they need to, because of how Ousen locking himself up gave Renpa the the opportunity to simply ignore him and go for Mougou.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 10, 2014)

I don't think there's much intelligence involved in having a place to retreat to as soon as you're face to face with someone. I could create a hole in my fence for me to escape through should some scary dude knock on my door. Doesn't mean I'm a genius. It means I looked ahead, but that's not quite the same.

Creating the fort itself was genius, not the decision to retreat to it. Ousen showed tactical genius vs Kyouen, and then defensive + construction genius vs Renpa.

At least that's the way I saw it. I put Renpa as Ousen's equal at least in strategy, simply because he takes bolder moves. It's easier to run away than it is to unlock a defence.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 10, 2014)

An Ousen discussion and I wasn't even here to chime in... 

I knew I shouldn't have gone to my graduation (jks).


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

Congrats Moester.

Now tell us your view


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 11, 2014)

Ousen didn't want to take any chances, since he values himself above all else.
So he made that fort, just in case Renpa decided to show up.
Now, whether he predicted it or just covered all his bases, is up to interpretation.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 11, 2014)




----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

If Hara ever draws the generals as children, I'm sure we will see Ousen doing sand fortresses.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

Kanki shoves a knife up his sisters toy doll and then proceeds to chop its head off. Probably in front of her.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

Speaking of Kanki, I wish we get a flashback of him and get some more insight to his character and why exactly did he decide to join Qin. 

Wonder was he forced to join Qin by force or did he just accept some offer by Mougou.
Would be interesting if Mougou with Ousen were the ones who were supposed to deal with Kanki and his bandits, but instead of taking Kanki out they managed to recruit him.

Maybe Ousen tried to recruit Kanki for his kingdom.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

I always saw it as Kanki was causing trouble in Qin, which resulted in a lot of battles between the two sides as Qin couldn't capture Kanki whilst Kanki would lose some of his bandit-group. So Mougou approached him and said if Kanki loves warfare, he should join him and instead of causing small scale problems in Qin, he can do it on a much grander scale against other states - and get rewarded for it as well. 

I hope we actually manage to see Ousen recruit someone. He's 0/2 so far.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

Actually Ousen did recruit that 1 guy from the city he took in chapter 366.

Kanki would seem like the guy who wouldn't willingly accept to join the Qin. There might of been some force included, like Mougou and Ousen came to his doorstep with a huge army and told him that join us or its the end.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

I doubt Kanki would be like that. He did seem to respect Mougou after all. Perhaps Mougou did something for Kanki to make him swear allegiance or something, but I think Ousen and Mougou knocking on his door with a threat is the least likely outcome. Wouldn't surprise me if Ousen did try to recruit Kanki at one point though, and maybe Kanki was able to clash equally with him which gained Mougou's attention?

The guys that Ousen recruited from Wei seemed like your average fodder. We don't usually see powerful Generals begging for mercy like that. I wonder if the next time Ousen faces Wei, those recruited guys will just return to Wei's side when Ousen isn't looking? A lot of those men will have wives + kids in Wei after all.

Just imagine if Ousen was able to recruit Kyouen and Ordo. My guess is the next step would be going into some mountains and recruiting any Bajio-type commanders.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

Well Mougou probably did something to earn Kanki's respect. You'd think that Qin would get quite pissed off if their armies failed to capture 1 bandit and they would send a larger army to take him down. 

I can see Mougou giving him 2 options, come with us or fight and be destroyed. Given the fact that Kanki never lost to the Qin guys, it would make sense that he wouldn't just take up on some offer without there being some big reason as to why he had to accept it.

Pretty sure Ousen will just take the guys he recruited with him, he can't just leave them alone after all.

Ousen has a problem since most of the strong generals are quite prideful and would never accept such an offer. Don't think we have seen a single general who would take Ousen's offer.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

Yeah perhaps Mougou got hold of some information which said Qin had a huge bounty on Kanki's head or something, so offered to take him in. I'm not sure if Mougou would have threatened Kanki with his own men, just because I don't think Kanki would take kindly to any type of threat. But Mougou could have told him about plans involving other armies though. And he probably used to lure of huge wars for Kanki to take part in. There's no way it was a straight up threat. You can't force Kanki to do anything.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 11, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> What's fact is that Ousen definitely prepared a giant fuck-off fort * solely* for the appearance of Renpa. He accounted for the scenario very  strongly and there is nothing suggesting he considered it an _improbable_ scenario.



Not necessarily solely. It could be a plan prepared for multiple scenarios, like Koyuen seeing thorough the trap, Heki completely fucking up the whole thing, etc.. It's possible that it was simply his way out for different scenarios. 



Coruscation said:


> Perhaps he did not consider it the _most_  likely scenario, who knows, but his surprise lasted only for the  briefest moments. The manga suggests with Renpa's wording "he predicted  that I would turn up" that Ousen did most likely consider it a highly  plausible scenario. If Renpa's interpretation of the events is not good  enough evidence, what is? It seems odd to discredit Renpa's reading of  Ousen's intentions when your main argument is how flawlessly Renpa was  able to read Ousen's intentions.



But that doesn't make sense. If he did consider it a highly plausible scenario, why didn't he make a better plan for it, a plan which wouldn't lower his chance of achieving his secondary objective so much?
Renpa simply stated that he predicted it, but that could also be taken that he accounted for it, not necessary that he considered it a highly probably scenario. In the end, this is a translation. Since this is by TF, I trust the translation but to relying on the exact meaning of the word "to predict" in English would be pushing it, especially since the situation in manga suggest otherwise: Ousens surprised expression, the fact that he changed his plans, Kyouens statement. 



Coruscation said:


> No, I stated he would not be able to spend the resources to take it.  Which is exactly what you wrote in your second sentence here: that it  can be done, technically, but with great cost. A cost that it was clear  from Kyouen's reactions they did not want to pay under those  circumstances -- but nor did they need to, because of how Ousen locking  himself up gave Renpa the the opportunity to simply ignore him and go  for Mougou.



So it looks like we reached an agreement on this one. It was possible, but a very hard task for Renpa and Kyouen. Meaning the situation favoured Ousen, but Kingdom if a manga where strong generals are able to beat the odds thanks to experiences, weight, etc. and Renpa is definitely such general so who knows how that would turn out. 



Coruscation said:


> That is just a question of semantics in my eyes.


  From what I've read from your posts this seems to be the case. In the  end, our opinion on the situation seems to be the same, or at least very  similar. We just seem to have a different understanding in the phrase  "Saw through him".

In my vocabulary, seeing through someone means  that you guess someone will most probably do something. That is what  Renpa did. He predicted how Ousen will move and acted accordingly. 

What  I however don't consider seeing through someone is, when you guess  someone will most probably do something, but at the same time, you take  into account that he might do bunch of different things. That's just  being prepared. 
Of course, I do not belittle such a feat as being  prepared for scenarios which won't probably happen, quite the opposite,  it's the reason why I like Ousen so much and why I think he is so good  when it comes to strategy. 

However, Renpa seem to work  differently. His strength seems to be in being able to perfectly  analysing his opponents and acting accordingly. And he did it  splendidly, in other words, he saw through Ousens initial plan  perfectly. 

Good proof would be comparing it to the battle of  Ordo vs. Ousen. Odro just fallen for one of Ousen's traps, he was not  able to read Ousen at all, and Ousen didn't need to switch to a plan  which had lesser probability in terms of achieving his objectives, but  actually raised the chance of achieving even his secondary objective,  which was to defend the Kankoku pass. 
However, with Renpa, it was  different and Ousen needed to switch to a plan where the chance of  achieving his secondary objective was lower. 

So in terms of  strategy planning Ousen is more of the being prepared for each scenario  type and Renpa would be the more flexible type, who can switch his plans  according to the situation. In the end, because of this and because of  the fact that they had different primary objective, it is hard to  determine who is the better strategist, especially because of the fact  that it was Ousen's position which fucked Renpa in the end, but that was  an achievement made by both, Ousen and Kanki. 

I still believe Renpa to be better strategist, but after reading your posts, I now believe them to be closer than I initially thought. It is however really hard to compare them, because of their style. Renpa is more offensive while Ousen is more defensive, Renpa is more flexible while Ousen is more calculating.

If I have to say why I believe Renpa to be better, It would be because I can imagine Renpa somehow, with enormous effort and loses somehow fucking over Ousen, while I can't imagine Ousen fucking over Renpa even with giant effort and loses.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah perhaps Mougou got hold of some information which said Qin had a huge bounty on Kanki's head or something, so offered to take him in. I'm not sure if Mougou would have threatened Kanki with his own men, just because I don't think Kanki would take kindly to any type of threat. But Mougou could have told him about plans involving other armies though. And he probably used to lure of huge wars for Kanki to take part in. There's no way it was a straight up threat. You can't force Kanki to do anything.



Well they way I see it is that, Mougou with like a 100k army appears next to the whatever place Kanki and his group of bandits were holding and Mougou then offered him a place in his own group. He wouldn't need any verbal threats or anything like that, just the fact that a huge army would be enough to make Kanki kinda think on the offer. 
I'm sure Mougou offered him quite a bit and gave him enough reason to join Qin. Kanki is a guy who seems to enjoy what he does and under Mougou he would get the best possible chance to make war and get riches.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 11, 2014)

Wouldn't getting more money, booze, bitches and fun be sufficient for Kanki to stop being bandit and join Qin? After all, it's only profitable for him and his bandits when they can suddenly start to be soldiers...


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

Well as long as he could of been able to beat the Qin armies that came for him, I think he would of been just fine as a bandit leader, Kanki doesn't look like the guy who would like to take orders from anyone.

I'm sure there was something more to him joining Qin that just a simple offer, like join us or fight us kinda of a thing.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

It also gives him more licence to do what he wants in wars. When he was a bandit I doubt he was using his warfare skills against armies of tens of thousands, or taking on legendary Generals.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Kanki doesn't look like the guy who would like to take orders from anyone.


 
That is indeed true. So there should be some story behind it and it should be interesting. I really hope Hara will incorporate it in the manga in the future.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

One of the reasons Kanki will have liked working for Mougou is that he has freedom as well. It's not like some armies where the lead General instructs all those beneath him.

Mougou seems to just let them do what they want whilst he sits back and defends. If Mougou was hands on, I don't think Kanki will have accepted.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 11, 2014)

> Not necessarily solely. It could be a plan prepared for multiple scenarios, like Koyuen seeing thorough the trap, Heki completely fucking up the whole thing, etc.. It's possible that it was simply his way out for different scenarios.



Mm, but the manga specifically attempts to inform the reader that it was because he predicted Renpa would show up. Even if Ousen's plan to trap and recruit Kyouen had failed, that doesn't really mean Ousen would have to run and hide in a fort. He could beat Kyouen in the field. The fort was for Renpa. That's what we're told in explicit terms and I don't think we're supposed to question it anymore than how Renpa also predicted what Ousen would do.



> But that doesn't make sense. If he did consider it a highly plausible scenario, why didn't he make a better plan for it, a plan which wouldn't lower his chance of achieving his secondary objective so much?



It makes sense if you consider that Ousen simply can not make such a good plan when the opponent is Renpa. Renpa is too experienced and skillful, and engaging him in any kind of head-on clash is simply too risky for Ousen's taste (remember even Riboku said that no general alive can win over Renpa). That is also the overall impression that Renpa took from meeting Ousen: someone who values his own life above all else and is unwilling to face Renpa in an honest straight battle, which is why he lost interest in him.



> It was possible, but a very hard task for Renpa and Kyouen. Meaning the situation favoured Ousen, but Kingdom if a manga where strong generals are able to beat the odds thanks to experiences, weight, etc. and Renpa is definitely such general so who knows how that would turn out.



Yes, I never meant that it was impossible for Renpa to take the fort. If Renpa had actually dedicated his full efforts to it, it would eventually fall. But Ousen clearly felt comfortable in his prediction that that is something Renpa would not want to spend such an amount of resources on when there was a larger battle going on.



> From what I've read from your posts this seems to be the case. In the end, our opinion on the situation seems to be the same, or at least very similar. We just seem to have a different understanding in the phrase "Saw through him".



Well I haven't really used that particular phrase. I originally said that Ousen "read Renpa" which I still fully believe is true because Renpa himself surmised that Ousen had predicted the appearance of Renpa. It's not as if Renpa was open like a book to Ousen, but nor was the reverse true because Renpa hadn't predicted Ousen's retreat and fort construction at all. It was a very close match in that contest of predictions but I just took from it that Ousen managed to draw the slightly longer straw in that particular area.



> Renpa is more offensive while Ousen is more defensive, Renpa is more flexible while Ousen is more calculating.
> 
> If I have to say why I believe Renpa to be better, It would be because I can imagine Renpa somehow, with enormous effort and loses somehow fucking over Ousen, while I can't imagine Ousen fucking over Renpa even with giant effort and loses.



This is certainly true. Ousen is the ultimate defensive and calculating strategist. Renpa is the ultimate all-rounder general so far imo.

That is true as well but it's hard to separate that from Renpa being the overall superior General, not just in strategy/knowledge.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 11, 2014)

Ousen definitely anticipated bumping into Renpa. Whether he thought it happen at that moment, I don't know. I doubt it.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 11, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> Mm, but the manga specifically attempts to inform the reader that it was because he predicted Renpa would show up.


Again, you are placing too much weight on the exact meaning of the word "predict" in Renpa's statement: "Was this fortess prepared by him because him because he predicted I would turn up?" Predict could also mean that he predicted it among other predictions, in other words, he took such action into account in his many predictions. And the situation suggests the latter, since Ousen did show a surprised expression and he did change his initial plan.



Coruscation said:


> It makes sense if you consider that Ousen simply can not make such a  good plan when the opponent is Renpa. Renpa is too experienced and  skillful, and engaging him in any kind of head-on clash is simply too  risky for Ousen's taste (remember even Riboku said that no general alive  can win over Renpa). That is also the overall impression that Renpa  took from meeting Ousen: someone who values his own life above all else  and is unwilling to face Renpa in an honest straight battle, which is  why he lost interest in him.



That would be the case for a head on, honest straight battle. But if Ousen thought that Renpa appearing is a highly possible scenario, he would surely prepare another trap for such event and than, if that trap went wrong, he could still calmly retreat to his fort. 
However, the fact, that it did not happen and Ousen's surprised expression suggests that it was not the case and Ousen didn't consider Renpa's appearance a highly possible scenario. 



Coruscation said:


> Well I haven't really used that particular phrase. I originally said  that Ousen "read Renpa" which I still fully believe is true because  Renpa himself surmised that Ousen had predicted the appearance of Renpa.  It's not as if Renpa was open like a book to Ousen, but nor was the  reverse true because Renpa hadn't predicted Ousen's retreat and fort  construction at all. It was a very close match in that contest of  predictions but I just took from it that Ousen managed to draw the  slightly longer straw in that particular area.



I see... I thought you meant that Ousen managed to draw a significantly longer straw in that area, since my initial post was "Renpa was able to completely read Ousen" to which you replied "Ousen was actually the one who read Renpa".

But if it's like you stated now, than it's really just a question of which feat is bigger: Ousen being able to plan for pretty much every possible scenario or Renpa being able to completely see through Ousens brilliant plan (meaning the initial plan of Wei Di) based only on what he heard, without actually meeting Ousen beforehand.



Coruscation said:


> That is true as well but it's hard to separate that from Renpa being the  overall superior General, not just in strategy/knowledge.



Indeed and one also needs to take into consideration the fact that Renpa isn't afraid to take Ousen on in a situation where he is clearly at disadvantage, while Ousen would just calmly retreat to his back up plan. So it's hard to say how much would Renpa strategy/knowledge add to final result and how much it will be other things, like his individual strength etc..


----------



## Orca (Jun 11, 2014)

Anyone got a link to all the kingdom stats?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

You can find them on the Kingdom wiki for every character that has stats about them.

Last stats that we saw in the manga are in chapter 217 page 22-25.


----------



## Orca (Jun 11, 2014)

Ah kk. And how did we get Coaltion general stats if the latest were in 217?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

They were released in some databook that has no translation made out of it. Not quite sure where you can find it.


----------



## Orca (Jun 11, 2014)

I see. Thanks..


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 11, 2014)

> you are placing too much weight on the exact meaning of the word "predict" in Renpa's statement: "Was this fortess prepared by him because him because he predicted I would turn up?" Predict could also mean that he predicted it among other predictions, in other words, he took such action into account in his many predictions.



I don't quite follow. The term "will" is used here. Not "may" or a synonym. I don't feel I'm being overly semantic when there is in fact a difference between these things. Planning for an eventuality and planning for the expected scenario are different things, and Renpa's interpretation (which is the one the reader is left with) of Ousen's behavior is that he predicted that Renpa _would_ appear. This is of course what Ousen is best at: predictions. They are seldom wrong, and they weren't in this case either.



> That would be the case for a head on, honest straight battle. But if Ousen thought that Renpa appearing is a highly possible scenario, he would surely prepare another trap for such event and than, if that trap went wrong, he could still calmly retreat to his fort.



Not necessarily. That all depends on how Ousen weighed chance of success versus risk taken in trying to defeat Renpa outright in case the man appeared. I believe he simply did not believe it possible to do so without taking too much of a risk. Remember what Riboku said, that beating Renpa in the field is something no general alive can do. Riboku, a genius even beyond Ousen, had to prepare an incredibly elaborate trap that went beyond the strategies in the battlefield to end Ouki's life, and even when maximally ensnared he believed that Ouki could break out of the entire thing with the "slightest shift in the winds". Ousen can not possibly hope to be certain of being able to ensnare and defeat a man equal to Ouki's stature as a mere one third of a greater war with possible outside factors and unknowns, and he must have known as much.

We've talked a little about his surprised expression before. I simply don't think that it overrules Renpa's statement that comes chronologically later, or that it necessarily indicates he did not predict Renpa's appearance. Like I said earlier the fact that Kyouen seemed to be defeated, there were no signs of Renpa thus far at all and then Kyouen suddenly changes his tune and Renpa bursts onto the field is in my opinion surely enough to account for a widening of Ousen's eyes for the briefest of moments.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 11, 2014)

I see... But than why would Ousen go through the trouble of employing such a complicated and sophisticated plan as Wei Di? If we assume he indeed thought there is a high probability of Renpa appearing there that is like what.. 70% that he appears there and 30% that he won't appear? So are you saying he went with such a complicated method despite believing that there is a 70% chance if will be for nothing and he will have to retreat?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 11, 2014)

Well Ousen had to do something against Kyouen and the Wei Di is a very unique land type so why not use it if there's a chance it might work. It didn't really cost Ousen that much to try such a thing out.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 12, 2014)

^ especially, since he thought Heki and his men were completely expendable.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 12, 2014)

The Ousen/Renpa confrontation was arguably my favorite moment of that arc. So tense...

I wonder what a Kanki/Renpa confrontation would have been like?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 12, 2014)

I doubt Kanki would ever confront Renpa. He would just run away from him and try something dirty. 

Renpa might one of the hardest opponents for Kanki, not only is he strong hes also damn smart.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 12, 2014)

Re-read the Renpa arc. 

I'll be honest Ousen was one of the least interesting to me in this arc. Cool fort bro. Kanki on the other hand.. So damn cruel. What a powerhouse in that war. 

It was also nice to be reminded the level of the 6GOQ and 3ZH. 

Shin vs Rinko is obviously one of the best fights of Kingdom as a whole, but it made me wonder how different things would be without interference.

What if Ouki didn't get hit by an arrow?

What if Sosui didn't interfere with Rinko?

What if Mouten didn't interfere with Kanmei?

Such impactful moments...


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 12, 2014)

> What if Mouten didn't interfere with Kanmei?



Moubu would have defeated Kanmei even sooner and then Mouten and him together would of made the Chu retreat. Really Mouten being throw between them did nothing, but get Mouten injured. Moubu had already won the fight.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 12, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Moubu would have defeated Kanmei even sooner and then Mouten and him together would of made the Chu retreat. Really Mouten being throw between them did nothing, but get Mouten injured. Moubu had already won the fight.



Assuming Kanmei would sit there waiting to block Moubu's next attack instead of going offensive, and assuming watching his son cut down in front of him didn't add significant weight to Moubu's next attack allowing him to shatter Kanmei's sword.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 12, 2014)

Kanmei said before the fight even started that his sword would break if he were to fight Moubu with it, Moubu was already ready to attack when Mouten was shoved between them and Kanmei hadn't even drawn his sword. 

Moubu would of crushed him right then and there.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 12, 2014)

Guess it wouldn't have changed much. Moubu beasted.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 12, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Re-read the Renpa arc.
> 
> I'll be honest Ousen was one of the least interesting to me in this arc. Cool fort bro. Kanki on the other hand.. So damn cruel. What a powerhouse in that war.



Kanki definitely stole the show in that arc. I read the whole thing basically in a day, so much epic stuff happened. The plot itself was awesome, the introduction of the major characters was great, it had some epic moments...probably my favorite arc of the series. 

Though I still thought Ousen looked amazing. Hara always used to have cover pages of the two people who were about to fight, so when we had this it was probably the most excited I've ever been:


I even turned it into a sig: 


I love it when you have a big fight atmosphere. Ousen was exciting for me because this was a guy who was supposedly a hidden monster that was hyped up to be as strong as Qin's 6, yet he was hidden in mystery. His style + design was epic too. When you have two guys about to clash and you genuinely have no clue what the outcome will be, you have me hooked. We kind of saw what Kanki was all about, but Hara just teased us with Ousen, in a way. 

Ousen's portrayal has always been a notch higher than Kanki's, IMO. 



> It was also nice to be reminded the level of the 6GOQ and 3ZH.
> .


Remember Renpa and Ouki were incredible even by the 6G and 3H's standards.


----------



## Orca (Jun 12, 2014)

> Remember Renpa and Ouki were incredible even by the 6G and 3H's standards.



Was Renpa said to be the best out of the original three Heavens?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Was Renpa said to be the best out of the original three Heavens?



I don't think so, but by hype he was. Historically he was also Zhao's greatest General at that point as well.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 12, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Was Renpa said to be the best out of the original three Heavens?



Don't remember anyone saying that he was best, but Renpa himself did state that the fact that he managed to outlive the others means that he was the best.

But since we don't really know how strong the other 3GH were so we can't really say if Renpa was the best. But we do know that Hakuki, Ouki and Renpa were among the strongest of that generation.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 12, 2014)

Is there anyone alive currently that we can put in the Renpa/Ouki bracket? I guess Riboku + Ousen are the closest of those we've seen. Kouen is likely I guess. I can't really think of anyone else who's great in every area. There's Tou obviously but he's a little below Renpa and Ouki.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 12, 2014)

No, I don't think anyone is quite all around strong enough to be in their bracket. Moubu and Ousen might match them in 1 area, but lose in the other 2.

I think we might have to wait till the younger generation properly grows up to see monsters like Ouki and Renpa again.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 12, 2014)

Riboku seems to generally be considered a man on par with or above Ouki in the story. He is more adept in the position of a strategist than a general though, so it depends on how you frame the question. As a general specifically I don't think anyone currently alive, besides perhaps Kouen, is on par with Renpa and Ouki. That was even Riboku's own opinion on the matter.



> But than why would Ousen go through the trouble of employing such a complicated and sophisticated plan as Wei Di? If we assume he indeed thought there is a high probability of Renpa appearing there that is like what.. 70% that he appears there and 30% that he won't appear? So are you saying he went with such a complicated method despite believing that there is a 70% chance if will be for nothing and he will have to retreat?



Well it was simply a good battleplan in any event. As long as he was properly prepared for the appearance of Renpa and didn't do anything to truly jeopardize his safety, he's free to employ whatever method he devises to be most effective in taking on Kyouen. And even if those are the odds, it's still worth doing. If his prediction is wrong then he either 1) defeats Kyouen, which is great or 2) turns Kyouen over to his own side, which is even better. If his prediction that Renpa will likely appear at some point and foil that plan does come true, then he simply retreats to his fort, which on my view would be his preferred course of action if he comes face to face with Renpa in the field.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 12, 2014)

It also appears to be Ousen's default fighting style, to find or make a place to lure enemies in.
So in his mind, that fort would probably have a bunch of uses, even if Renpa never showed.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 12, 2014)

Only 2 more days till we get a new chapter. I honestly wonder how will Ouhon get out of this situation alive, I doubt he can fight off Shihaku in any meaningful way. Maybe Kanjou will come back and save him.

Anyway I think next chapter we will go back to Tou and Rokuomi and how they are doing.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 12, 2014)

We get the chapters on Sunday afternoon my time. It's 00:52 Friday (Thursday night) my time. Still ages 

I think Hara might just update us with a 'box' of text. Or maybe someone will report to Tou that Shin was defeated, as was Ouhon but both managed to withdraw and escape. 

I think we'll definitely be  on a different battlefield by the time we read the last page. Then after all 3 major battles have been done in a few weeks, we'll see all the major players come together and discuss plans.

The most unpredictable battle is definitely Rukuomi vs Ranbihaku, if that's how it goes. Would it really surprise anyone if they clash next week and Rukuomi ends up dead? At least we know Tou isn't going to die in the very near future - he'd die towards the climax if it were to happen. I can't wait for Tou, Reiou, Ranbihaku, Rukuomi and Kanou because it's only going to be epic. I don't mind what happens. On the other hand I'm still a little worried that Shin and Ouhon might end up beating their opponents soon so I don't want to get too hyped up for it. 

Just realised that these Fire Dragons must have lost to Qin quite a few times if we go by history. Wei has been Qin's bitch for like 4 decades at least now.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm hoping Hara is going to put in that Qi monster you talked about before KIG


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 13, 2014)

> Just realised that these Fire Dragons must have lost to Qin quite a few times if we go by history. Wei has been Qin's bitch for like 4 decades at least now.



Yup, its quite obvious that they weren't quite on par with the 6GG, but then again we don't know how much different things would be if they were never imprisoned. I think all 3 of them would have gotten destroyed by Ouki, Renpa and Hakuki + the other monsters who were still around back then.

I kinda hope Hara wont use the 6GG or the 3GH as hype tools anymore and that we don't get anymore of these general groups from each state. These fire dragons are already kinda pushing it for me.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 13, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I kinda hope Hara wont use the 6GG or the 3GH as hype tools anymore and that we don't get anymore of these general groups from each state. These fire dragons are already kinda pushing it for me.



Kind of unlikely to be honest. Hara does seem to enjoy coming up with group themes/names alot in this series. I wouldn't be surprised and at this point even expect the other states to have their own special group of generals. Perhaps not on part with the 6GC or 3GH but yeah, I kind of don't really wanna see them being used over and over as hype tools too.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 13, 2014)

I have no problem if he creates new groups as long as the groups are new and not some old legendary group of generals that for some reason we have never heard of before. And those groups that work under the bigger generals are cool as well.

Speaking of these groups like Renpa's for heavenly kings, I wonder will Shin, Ouhon and Mouten get their own groups. Shin has Ten at least since we don't know if Kyoukai will eventually leave them. No one else in the Hi Shin unit really stands out tho.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 13, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Yup, its quite obvious that they weren't quite on par with the 6GG, but then again we don't know how much different things would be if they were never imprisoned. I think all 3 of them would have gotten destroyed by Ouki, Renpa and Hakuki + the other monsters who were still around back then.
> 
> I kinda hope Hara wont use the 6GG or the 3GH as hype tools anymore and that we don't get anymore of these general groups from each state. These fire dragons are already kinda pushing it for me.



I was a little surprised Hara went with 7. A better idea might have been just to have 4 and have it so they plotted to kill the PM or something.

To have 7, it guarantees they're behind Qin's 6 overall as they achieved less with equal numbers (if we add Duke to the 6). At least Zhao can use the defence of having half Qin's amount.

It's clear that all these Dragons seem to excel in one area. As was hinted at, Ouki and Renpa could have defeated Gaimou by simply turning it into a strategic war. He's got a clear weakness for the elite's to exploit. 

I'm sure they were strong enough to be in Qin's 6 though, it's just they'd be on the lower end. And by the sounds of it, the current 3 (and Gokei) were stronger than the 3 that died. So if Qin's 6 and Zhao's 3 have a power range of 7-10, I guess you could say Wei's power range would be 5-8. 

Pure speculation, but it could be right.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 13, 2014)

Sphyer said:


> Kind of unlikely to be honest. Hara does seem to enjoy coming up with group themes/names alot in this series. I wouldn't be surprised and at this point even expect the other states to have their own special group of generals. Perhaps not on part with the 6GC or 3GH but yeah, I kind of don't really wanna see them being used over and over as hype tools too.



There's nothing wrong with 'groups' tbh. I think what Lazor means is he doesn't want 'hidden' groups to appear from nowhere.

The good thing is, Hara doesn't need to create anything from thin air because Kingdom is largely based from Qin's POV, and they admit themselves that they have limited knowledge of Yan, Chu and probably Qi.

Hara had to pull something from Wei because it was said they had no more elite Generals, and Wei have been the most common enemy during the series. Qi haven't been mentioned at all, really. 

What would be an ass pull is if Yan have some legendary group known all around China, because there'd be no excuse for Qin not to know all about it seeing as they knew of Gekishin.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 13, 2014)

> I kinda hope Hara wont use the 6GG or the 3GH as hype tools anymore and that we don't get anymore of these general groups from each state. These fire dragons are already kinda pushing it for me.



I have had similar thoughts as well.

I do think that it feels a little contradictory when on the one hand, the 6GG / 3GH are sometimes hyped up as these unparalleled monsters that we can't even really understand what they were like, but on the other "on the same level as the 6GG / 3GH" (or sometimes going even further, like Kanmei 1-shotting Oukotsu) is a pretty frequent hype tool. It makes me unsure of whether we're supposed to think that people like Ouki are a little blinded by nostalgia when looking back, or that the "same level" hype is wrong because it's made by people who didn't truly understand their greatness. Though that wouldn't work for the likes of Mougu talking about Kanki/Ousen who I do think we are supposed to consider genuinely 6GG level. But it makes that group and the hype for it feel a bit fake if there are so many commanders on the same level (there's got to be at least a dozen running around; in Qin alone there's seemingly four right now).

Ultimately it seems the 6GG and 3GH are probably carried in large part by their reputation. Even if others are on their level they'll still be viewed in this almost mythical light because their legend grew so large. We've been allowed to see arguably the greatest individuals from each group (Ouki and Renpa) which influences our perception of them and shows what the highest-set bar is.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 13, 2014)

Actually, I just read the timeline again (the one I used where I looked at the previous 200 years pre-Kingdom). I looked from 252BC to 280BC - with 252BC being the year the Fire Dragons finished. Wei didn't actually lose that much to Qin in this period. In fact I could only see 2 wars where they lost men, (one of them was vs Hakuki, surprise, surprise). Wei were Qin's bitch about 50 years ago, so before the Fire Dragons were around. 

All this is probably irrelevant anyway since Hara doesn't go 100% with history all the time, but he does usually. Just some interesting info anyway. 



Coruscation said:


> I have had similar thoughts as well.
> 
> I do think that it feels a little contradictory when on the one hand, the 6GG / 3GH are sometimes hyped up as these unparalleled monsters that we can't even really understand what they were like, but on the other "on the same level as the 6GG / 3GH" (or sometimes going even further, like Kanmei 1-shotting Oukotsu) is a pretty frequent hype tool. It makes me unsure of whether we're supposed to think that people like Ouki are a little blinded by nostalgia when looking back, or that the "same level" hype is wrong because it's made by people who didn't truly understand their greatness. Though that wouldn't work for the likes of Mougu talking about Kanki/Ousen who I do think we are supposed to consider genuinely 6GG level. But it makes that group and the hype for it feel a bit fake if there are so many commanders on the same level (there's got to be at least a dozen running around; in Qin alone there's seemingly four right now).
> 
> Ultimately it seems the 6GG and 3GH are probably carried in large part by their reputation. Even if others are on their level they'll still be viewed in this almost mythical light because their legend grew so large. We've been allowed to see arguably the greatest individuals from each group (Ouki and Renpa) which influences our perception of them and shows what the highest-set bar is.



A lot of it is probably collective strength, as well as individual. I think other states must have their own top Generals. If Qin had 6 of their own - 7 if you include Duke, then it's not surprising to see other states having their own. As long as they aren't as strong, collectively, as Qin's 6, then there's nothing wrong with it.

The only time the title of the 6 was cheapened was when Oukotsu lost so easily. I'd like to put that down to arrogance, particularly as he's from the Ou family. If Shin/Ouhon defeat Gaimou/Shihaku this arc, then I'll also add that as a cheap moment, but I'll wait to see if it actually happens.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 14, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> I have had similar thoughts as well.
> 
> I do think that it feels a little contradictory when on the one hand, the 6GG / 3GH are sometimes hyped up as these unparalleled monsters that we can't even really understand what they were like, but on the other "on the same level as the 6GG / 3GH" (or sometimes going even further, like Kanmei 1-shotting Oukotsu) is a pretty frequent hype tool. It makes me unsure of whether we're supposed to think that people like Ouki are a little blinded by nostalgia when looking back, or that the "same level" hype is wrong because it's made by people who didn't truly understand their greatness. Though that wouldn't work for the likes of Mougu talking about Kanki/Ousen who I do think we are supposed to consider genuinely 6GG level. But it makes that group and the hype for it feel a bit fake if there are so many commanders on the same level (there's got to be at least a dozen running around; in Qin alone there's seemingly four right now).
> 
> Ultimately it seems the 6GG and 3GH are probably carried in large part by their reputation. Even if others are on their level they'll still be viewed in this almost mythical light because their legend grew so large. We've been allowed to see arguably the greatest individuals from each group (Ouki and Renpa) which influences our perception of them and shows what the highest-set bar is.



Pretty much this. Only thing I would like to add is, that maybe it's got to do something with fame of Qin 6GG and Zhao 3GH. Which can work both ways. Either they weren't there were actually another beings of the same level, but just weren't that famous, because they had worse conditions for achieving such fame (like fighting many battles at disadvantage, not fighting that often, not interested like in Dukes case or being a genuinely dangerous individual to kingdom like Ousen), or the opposite, because of the fame of Qin 6GG and Zhao 3GH, any general who was able to fight evenly even one fight and for a short time against them was automatically hyped by his allies as being their equal. For example, Kanmeis case could be that he simply delivered a lucky hit to an exhausted Oukotsu. And booom, because of Kanmeis infinite idiocy, he thought that he actually one-shoted that man.

Notice how Wei Fire Dragons are hyped especially by Wei itself.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 14, 2014)

Question: Are RyoFui, RiShi and SaiTaku capable of functioning as generals/army commanders?


----------



## Snoozles (Jun 14, 2014)

^Probably not. They're from different fields: business, legalism, and diplomacy respectively. At most, Saitaku might be a good tactician (I think he was seen at Shouheikun's academy?).

---

Historically speaking, Lian Po (Renpa) and Bai Qi (Hakuki) were regarded as the best generals of their generation. I think most of the 6GG and 3GH are good enough not to lose too much against the best ones but that doesn't mean they're as good. The Fire Dragons are probably closer to the lower end of that spectrum and they've already been surpassed by the current generation (Riboku, Ousen, Moubu), which is why two of them are being matched against Shin and Ouhon.


----------



## MightiestRooster (Jun 14, 2014)

Snoozles said:


> At most, Saitaku might be a good tactician (I think he was seen at Shouheikun's academy?).



That and he has 92 in leadership in his stats.. Which hints at him being an actual commander in the past


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Congrats Moester.
> 
> Now tell us your view



Thanks, mate. This is my analysis of it, enjoy. 

Firstly I’ll discuss whether Ousen predicted that Renpa would show up at the time he did. IMO, he did not see Renpa coming.

The first question I have to ask is why did Renpa go after Ousen and not Kanki? Kanki already took out Genpou Ch. 212 and so far caused far more damage than Ousen.

From the very beginning, the only information Renpa had about Ousen and Kanki was what Ouki told him:


*Spoiler*: __ 









So what is so special about Ousen? Well, having lost both Genpou and ironically Kanki, he states that he'll have to make some _slight adjustments_. Slight? Why would he say slight adjustment? He just lost Genpou and Kanki disappeared. Because, for one, when Genpou died, Renpa entered the stage. But what about Kanki? I think it is because Renpa never had his eyes set on Kanki, he had it on Ousen from the get-go. Again, why? I think it was because of the panels below:


*Spoiler*: __ 








Both Renpa and Ousen went for the most strategic point in the area. Then a fair assumption to make would be that both individuals have an intimate knowledge of the area, and why wouldn't they considering they both have maps. I think this is when Ousen fucked up and Renpa got the better of him. Because Ousen picked the exact location Renpa had originally planned to use, Renpa was able to limit Ousen's movement to a certain area. From there, he predicted which route and part of the environment Ousen would take/use to put himself at a greater advantage. It has always been about the terrain advantage for Ousen, so the Mountain Man and Wei Di were logical choices to create an advantage against Renpa - which allowed Renpa to read him easier.


*Spoiler*: __ 








6th panel from the left - Ousen already predicted in advance that the battle would take place here.


*Spoiler*: __ 








5th panel from the left - again prediction and terrain advantage from Renpa.



Renpa outplaying Ousen cleanly.

Renpa let Kyouen loose on the second day of fighting (first time Ousen and Kyouen met), with the entire plan in hand. From early on, Renpa outplayed Ousen, as Kyouen had the plans from the get-go. Renpa says that Kyouen would normally be pushing through at a pace that would render the enemy helpless, but that is prolly not the case this time. 



In the above page, he was referring to Ousen, and the reason for this is because he knew Ousen would use the Wei Di to his advantage and ensnare Kyouen - giving him a hard time.


So why not Kanki? Because Kanki was prolly a lot harder to predict. Firstly, he positioned himself at Mount Ryuu. A place quite a distance a way from where they had originally predicted to be, then they give a accurate assessment of him -  that being that he is a strategist that uses shifting maneuvers. From there, it wouldn't be a farfetched that Renpa decided to target Ousen instead of Kanki.



So then, what the hell? What was the point in all of this? How does this convince anyone that Ousen did not predict Renpa's movement?

Because, I have a hard time believeing that:

Ousen chose the mountain so that ----> he could trick Renpa in believing that he predicted his (ousen's movements) ----> so that Renpa could force him back into his hideout ----> to do what?

Why would he predict Renpa's actions and force himself back to his own fort? I can't really think of a legitimate reason. 

More then anything else, if Ousen had predicted that far ahead, he'd have set up a trap for Renpa and finished him. Renpa would only get in the way of Ousen's ambitions. Neither do I see him predicting how much damage Kanki would have done otherwise. There are far too many factors at play here that would make predicting Kanki too difficult. If Ousen could, then this would just greatly de-hype Kanki.

It also, sure as hell, ain't because he saw the Qin's center army winning, because as y'all remember, Rinko lost to a anomaly called Shin. No one should have been able to predict that Rinko and the centre army would have lost their momentum to a nobody. Renpa didn't, neither should Ousen have considering he prolly didn't even realise Shin existed. I can't possibly fathom what Ousen would have benefitted from leading Renpa on like that. Best case scenario - Kanki defeats the right army and main HQ - center army holds out against Wei's center army. That would still leave Kyouen, meaning that he'd have to fight through Kyouen just to attack or help out the center army. No, no.

Ousen got outplayed by Renpa. The reason he picked Mountain Man was (in order):

1. The most strategical point he could safely return. Simply put, it was his backup plan, a place he could return to in case anything went wrong (which it did with Renpa's arrival). Ousen is only out for himself, he prolly doesn't care too much whether they'd win or lose.
2. A HQ base that could serve as a last line of defense.
3. So that Renpa couldn't
4. Some I forgot.

Other reasons why I believe he got outplayed:

His facial expressions:


*Spoiler*: __ 








His retreat:


*Spoiler*: __ 










Regarding this panel:




The question Renpa asked, "Was this fortress prepared by him because he predicted I would turn up?" is just that -  a question. A reasonable question to ask if Renpa did not understand the kind of man Ousen was. Something which he began to understand:


*Spoiler*: __ 










I don't think Renpa would have asked that question if he understood the kind of man Ousen was. No, he would have realized that Ousen did what he did to protect his ass because he values his life more so then anything else.

There needs to be a distinction made between strategy and tactics. Strategy is basically an all-encompassing plan that deals with how you plan to achieve  a goal, and tactics would be a real-time application of said procedure of the plan AND/Or methods of real-time adaptation to the chaotic and unpredictable elements of war.

So I'd say the best tactician would prolly be Duke and the best strategist Riboku. Renpa and Ouki are hybrids. So far, we've seen Ousen use mostly strategy. 

Strategy:

His fast capturing of cities.
Mountain Man
Trapping Kyouen in Wei Di.
Setting up an unit beforehand in dealing with Ordo
Going into Kankou Pass
Prediction that Tou would come to him.

Tactics:

His response to Renpa outplaying him - running to his fort.
Dealing with Karin's troops.

What Ousen did to Ordo was brilliant, but at the same time, Ordo didn't really seem to be much of a challenge. One could make the argument that Ousen moves according to his enemy, meaning had his enemy been Riboku, he would have moved accordingly and devised a strategy that would have made Riboku sweat. Not something that ensnared somelike like Ordo as easily. 

Now for Renpa.

Strategy:
Kept back Ouki and Hakuki
Bested Gakujou, the second best general at the time, with 1/6th the force.
Riboku himself stated that he could not best Renpa.
Outplayed Ousen and forced him to go back to his fort.
Devised a plan that was bested by an anomaly. Rinko should have pincered Mougou. It looked like Wei had it in the bag tbh.
Did this all with Wei soldiers.

Tactics:


Kanki Is God said:


> For tactics, I guess you could include the way Renpa went up the fort which Mougou built. From memory there was some Duke-esque instincts going on there.



From what we've seen so far, and what I've posted above. I fail to see how Ousen has surpassed Renpa in strategy nor do I see how Ousen predicted that Renpa would show up.

Now, let me be clear. Ousen prolly saw Renpa intervening at some point, but not then and there. Prolly when he did a significant amount of damage to the left army.

*Strategy:*
Riboku
Renpa (experience)
Ouki (experience)
Ousen
Shouheikun
Gohoumei
Karin
Gokei
Kanki


*Tactics:*
Duke
Ouki
Renpa
Kanki
Ousen
Keisha
Tou

*Martial Might:*
Houken
Ouki
Renpa
Moubu
Kanmei
Shihaku
Ganmei
Tou
Duke

(I know I'm forgetting some people in some of these lists, but I just wrote all of this up so forgive me for forgetting.)

TLDR:



ClandestineSchemer said:


> Ousen didn't want to take any chances, since he values himself above all else.
> So he made that fort, just in case Renpa decided to show up.
> Now, whether he predicted it or just covered all his bases, is up to interpretation.


----------



## Orca (Jun 14, 2014)

^Well damn!! How many times have you guys read kingdom lol? That was one thorough post.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

That was a moegical post. Reps +.

For tactics, I guess you could include the way Renpa went up the fort which Mougou built. From memory there was some Duke-esque instincts going on there. 

Slightly OT, but it wouldn't actually surprise me if Kanmei was superior to Ouki and Renpa in combat. Remember there was a huge amount of weight in Ouki's attacks. Plus, it's 98 in combat vs 99. Now if Kanmei had killed Kyou, then sure Ouki would be superior. 

The more I look at the stats, the more I think they are actually accurate. I can't think of many which I look at and think 'WTF?'.

edit:

I'm also not sure if Kanki is a strategic general. Remember that was just Renpa's impression of him. Looking at how Kanki seems to create ideas off the top of his head, I'd say he was more instinctual, in the Keisha mould.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 14, 2014)

I'm starting to get kind of worried... still no new raw out. Shouldn't it be out by now?  At least the TF version of 390 is out.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

I will not be happy if there's another break


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 14, 2014)

TF showing their superiority.
It actually tells us why the head of the Shi family wanted to kill Shikaku.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Luffee said:


> ^Well damn!! How many times have you guys read kingdom lol? That was one thorough post.



Thanks. I've read it just once. Most of it was from memory and going back to check. I usually take like 5 minutes to read a chapter, so I have an easier time remembering - unlike Naruto and Bleach, which I spend like 30 secs to go through.



Kanki Is God said:


> That was a moegical post. Reps +.



Thanks. I've been quite inactive here so I figured I'd catch up with one long ass post. Glad you guys read it.



> For tactics, I guess you could include the way Renpa went up the fort which Mougou built. From memory there was some Duke-esque instincts going on there.



Added.



Kanki Is God said:


> Slightly OT, but it wouldn't actually surprise me if Kanmei was superior to Ouki and Renpa in combat. Remember there was a huge amount of weight in Ouki's attacks. Plus, it's 98 in combat vs 99. Now if Kanmei had killed Kyou, then sure Ouki would be superior.



It isn't off-topic. Moubu and Kanmei... IMO, they are pretty much equal in martial might, same thing with Renpa and Ouki so I'll consider Moubu and Kanmei, and Renpa and Ouki as two distinct groups (Moubu and kanmei - group 1. Renpa and Ouki - group 2..

Honestly, I'm not 100% confident in placing Ouki and Renpa above Moubu and Kanmei. I consider all of them to be in the same tier, with Houken being a tier above. My reasoning as to why I place Ouki and Renpa above Moubu and Kanmei is simply because of two things:

1. Experience in martial fights.
2. Greater skill with the glaive, relative to their skill with the mace.

Shihahku's reveal with his spear, his technique, the speed, the deadliness involved made me confident again in placing Ouki and Renpa above Moubu and Kanmei. Potential-wise, I'd place Moubu and Kanmei above Ouki and Renpa.

This shit is epic - just realize the speed involved, the headshots, and the less energy needed to kill someone compared to swinging a mace:





> The more I look at the stats, the more I think they are actually accurate. I can't think of many which I look at and think 'WTF?'.



I don't bother with stats. I find discussions to be more organic when we don't start involving numbers. Also, I still have issue with the discrepancies in the stat differences relative to actual showing. Shin and Moubu's strength stat vary by how much? 5-10? Yet we knowing that Moubu could crush Shin's entire body with his hands.
edit:



> I'm also not sure if Kanki is a strategic general. Remember that was just Renpa's impression of him. Looking at how Kanki seems to create ideas off the top of his head, I'd say he was more instinctual, in the Keisha mould.



Yea, I don't see Kanki as really strategical either. That is why I placed him at the bottom of my strategical list and placed him like 4th on the tactician list. 




ClandestineSchemer said:


> TF showing their superiority.
> It actually tells us why the head of the Shi family wanted to kill Shikaku.




Yea...

Not only that, it tells us that Tairoji sought allies AFTER he found out Shihaku wanted him dead.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 14, 2014)

TF is superior indeed, but Mangajoy is still readable imo. Nothing too important was missed.

But seriously, where is 391 raw???


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

Why on 390, does it talk about the 2nd anime season? Surely that's finished?

Unless TF want to give me an early birthday present by telling me there's another 30 raws to go through...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Why on 390, does it talk about the 2nd anime season? Surely that's finished?
> 
> Unless TF want to give me an early birthday present by telling me there's another 30 raws to go through...



I believe it's re-reruns.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

God damn that Shihaku hype is just insane. Renpa and Kanmei aside, I can't think of anyone that's had equal hype. Hara has the possibility of really pissing me off for the first time in this arc. One thing I would like to hear of, is characters who killed the 6 or 3. So for example Reiou might have defeated and killed Zhao She or Shiba Saku. It's likely; Gaimou had the Renpa/Ouki hype, Ranbihaku caused Ouki/Kyou trouble, Shihaku defeated 3 of the Fire Dragons....there seems to be a pattern here.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Alright guys, time for a new poll. I'll need some help making the list (only notable duels).

Which duel in Kingdom is your favourite?

Shin & Bajio vs Rankai
Duke vs Gokei
Shin vs Kyoukai
Kyou vs Houken
Shin & Kyoukai vs Houken
Ouki vs Houken (Zhao-Qin war)
Shin vs Rinko
Renpa vs Mougou
Gekishin vs Houken
Tou vs Rinbukun
Kanmei vs Moubu
Shin vs Mangoku
Duke vs Houken
Shin vs Futei
Kyoukai vs Yuuren
Shin vs Ganmei
Ouhon vs Shihaku

What did I miss?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 14, 2014)

Well there's the Shin vs Kyoukai one from the assassination arc that I'm not sure if you have read yet.
Don't think any other significant duels are missing.

Oh and Renpa vs Mougou.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well there's the Shin vs Kyoukai one from the assassination arc that I'm not sure if you have read yet.
> Don't think any other significant duels are missing.
> 
> Oh and Renpa vs Mougou.



Forgot them both.

Any I can delete. I just listed all I could remember, but some are not notable enough IMO. Which would you delete? Originally, I was thinking of making it just duels ending with death.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 14, 2014)

I'd remove Tou vs Kouyoku since it was mostly off paneled. Rest are fine imo.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Alright, since there are some differing opinions regarding tiers. Let's discuss them next - top 10 (or however many we can legitimately list) in martial might, strategy, and tactics.

Martial Might (factor in only experience and General weight):

1. Houken
2. Ouki Moubu
3. Renpa Kanmei
4. Moubu Ouki
5. Kanmei Renpa
6. Shihaku
7. Gaimou
8. Tou
9. Duke
10. Ranbihaku

Strategical:
1. Riboku
2. Renpa
3. Ouki Ousen
4. Ousen Shouheikun
5. Shouheikun Ouki
6. Genbou
7. Gohoumei
8. Karin
9. Gokei
10. Mouten (filler)

Tactical/Instinctual:
1. Duke
2. Ouki
3. Renpa
4. Kanki
5. Tou
6. Gekishin
7. Keisha
8. Shin (filler)
9. Ouhon (filler)
10. Mouten (filler)

List people with actual feats. Flashbacks and stated achievements are fine, but do not factor in hype and speculation. State why you agree/disagree with my list and make modifications however way you see it.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 14, 2014)

Martial might
1. Houken
2. Ouki
3. Moubu
4. Kanmei
5. Renpa.
6. Shihaku
7. Gaimou
8. Tou
9. Duke
10.Rankai.

I just don't see how could Renpa match Moubu at this point, what he did against Kanmei just makes me doubt anyone but Houken could really beat him or Ouki if he has enough weight in the match.
Not only is he probably the strongest character in the series, hes also damn fast with his mace and his durability is seemingly among the highest that we have seen in the series.


Strategical:
1. Riboku
2. Renpa
3. Ousen
4. Shouheikun
5. Ouki
6. Genpou
7. Gohoumei
8. Karin
9. Gokei
10. Mouten (filler)

I don't think Ouki really showed that much strategical feats to put him above Ousen or Shouheikun. Shouheikun was able to come up with large scale plans that only Riboku and Shunshinkun were able to see through and Ousen just destroyed Ordo with such ease and saved the entire state. Granted Ouki is above them in tactics/instinct. Everything strategical that Ouki did in the Zhao war seems something that Ousen and Shouheikun would be able to do just as well if not even better.

Also I think Ousen might be even better than Renpa is, but will need to see some more feats from Ousen to put him there.

Tactical/Instinctual:
1. Duke
2. Ouki
3. Renpa
4. Kanki
5. Tou
6. Gekishin
7. Keisha
8. Shin (filler)
9. Ouhon (filler)
10. Mouten (filler)

Nothing to really add here.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> -snip-



You know what, Lazor, you are right. I clearly asked for people with actual feats, but I made that list with hype and speculation in mind as well. So I'll restructure my question and reorganize my list.

I still believe Ouki and Renpa are above Moubu and Kanmei simply due to hype, experience, and technique, but I have no manga feats to back it up with and we all know the manga is truth in these instances.

HOWEVER, with that same notion in mind, how do you place Ouki above Kanmei and Moubu? The only reason Ouki did so well against Houken was because of all that revenge weight adding weight to his blows. Had that been their first encounter, Houken would have defeated Ouki. With what we've seen in the manga so far, I don't see Ouki defeating the present Moubu or Kanmei.

I'll agree to placing Ouki below Shouheikun.

I just wrote an essay as to how Renpa outplayed Ousen. I went through all of that and I do not think Ousen has surpassed Renpa yet with what we've seen so far. I will say his potential is higher than Renpa.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

All of Moe's great posts have been eradicated due to his shambolic version of the name "Gaimou". 

Now I'll respond to the posts above...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> All of Moe's great posts have been eradicated due to his shambolic version of the name "Gaimou".
> 
> Now I'll respond to the posts above...



LOL. WHO THE HELL IS GANMEI?!?!


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

To be honest experience helps in areas of strategy, instinct, leadership....not so much combat ability. 

Combat:

*1. Houken*. 
I don't think much needs to be said here. If he was 'as strong' as his Zhao-war self, then you could make the argument for someone else being ahead, but as he's clearly improved, he is definitely number 1.

*2. Moubu*
It was hinted at that his offensive might was the greatest in Qin, during the Zhao war. His own combat ability will influence this - after all we know Duke's army was arguably the strongest in Qin, and he was an offensive fighter. So why was Moubu probably number 1? I also think the underestimation of Kanmei, negatively effects our views on Moubu. This is a one dimensional fighter who's well into 'Qin 6' level, and that ain't due to any strategic or instinctual abilities. He's pure combat. 

*3. Kanmei*
This one was tough, just because Ouki has a lot of reasons to be considered 2nd, let alone 4th. But Hara's 'battle for the strongest' sub plot was there for a reason. Perhaps even more than Moubu, Kanmei genuinely is just a brute. He has 3 strategists at his side, has never shown any ability tactically or instinctually. He lives for one reason - to crush others. Crushing Oukotsu so convincingly is telling too, even though circumstances may have played a part.

*4. Ouki. *
Looking at him pre-weight, this was a guy who one shot Shoumou (though it appeared like both guys went for a quick kill), and duelled evenly with Houken. Well no, from memory I believe Houken had the slight advantage until the weight of Kyou + his dream came into play. I can really easily put him 3rd - I will argue against anyone that Ouki is behind Moubu, but if someone wants to put him above Kanmei, I wouldn't put up much of a fight.

*5. Renpa*
Slightly below Ouki. Just slightly. The reason for this really is that Mougou managed to put up a fight, despite the weight there. I'd be lying if I said the stats didn't come into play here either (98 vs 97). 

*6. Gaimou*
This is where I'm putting him right now, but things can change obviously. He was hinted at, as being similar to Renpa. In fact one could make  the argument that making today's Shin, feel equally as inferior as Renpa did to the Shin of 3 or 4 years ago, puts Gaimou above Renpa. Time will tell though. If Gaimou loses to Shin now, then there's no chance he's at Renpa's level. 

*7 and 8: Tou/Shihaku.*

Honestly I wouldn't have a clue how to rate these. Shihaku has just been so, so beastly upon his debut. But my fear is that Ouhon will defeat him 'tomorrow', whilst Tou was able to fend off Kouyoku reasonably easily a year or two ago. Tou we know is an absolute beast in combat.

*9. Duke*

It's said that only a handful of people in China can take him on, one on one. I've named all the people who probably can, so I'll leave it there.

*10. Yuuren.*

I'm not counting Kyoukai because I don't think she can go to that state again for a long time, which leaves Yuuren, who could stomp the normal dance Kyoukai. I think that's enough feats, really. 


The hard ones to judge were 3 vs 4, 5 vs 6, 7 vs 8 and 9 vs 10.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

*Strategical:*

1. Riboku
2. Ousen
3. Renpa
4. Shouheikun
5. Karin
6. Gohoumei
7. Gokei
8. Gekishin
9. Ouki
10. Kanki
11. Tou.
12. Genbou

Reiou...I have no idea.

*Instinct:*

1. Duke
2. Ouki
3. Renpa
4. Kanki
5. Gekishin

No clue beyond that, really.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

KIG, have you never played sports? It is practise that helps you become better, playing teams/games - which is essentially experience for the latter. Experience plays a major role in combat ability, especially if you consider that age doesn't really seem to be a factor until you reach like stone age like Genpou and Ryo's politician.

Gaimou vs Shihaku. We really don't have much to work with here, but this dude did take down 3 other Wei Dragons. We can also consider how he vastly overpowered Ouhon compared to Gaimou and Shin, with Shin putting up a decent fight with a weapon he lacked experience with. You could also argue Gaimou wasn't going all-out.

Dude... you gotta explain your reasoning behind your strategical list.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

Ouki was in his 50's right? If you bring sports into it, show me sportsman in their 50's/60's who are better than they were in their 20's and 30's lol. Moubu is in his prime right now. He can improve his leadership/strategic attributes, but as a fighter he's at the highest peak he'll ever reach, IMO.

I put Gaimou ahead of Shihaku because if these two are of similar greatness, then it makes sense as Shihaku appears to be superior in most other fields.

Which names do you disagree with in my strategy list? Gekishin was the hardest one for me to rank.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Ouki was in his 50's right? If you bring sports into it, show me sportsman in their 50's/60's who are better than they were in their 20's and 30's lol. Moubu is in his prime right now. He can improve his leadership/strategic attributes, but as a fighter he's at the highest peak he'll ever reach, IMO.



Dude, I think Renpa is in his 60's and he still looks like he could take on half an army by himself. Age ain't a think in Kingdom or else Renpa would have had his back broken by just merely riding a horse. From what we've seen so far, all age has granted these people is experience and weight.



> I put Gaimou ahead of Shihaku because if these two are of similar greatness, then it makes sense as Shihaku appears to be superior in most other fields.



Fair enough.



> Which names do you disagree with in my strategy list? Gekishin was the hardest one for me to rank.



Genbou below Kanki and Tou in strategy?
Ouki at #9?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Dude, I think Renpa is in his 60's and he still looks like he could take on half an army by himself. Age ain't a think in Kingdom or else Renpa would have had his back broken by just merely riding a horse. From what we've seen so far, all age has granted these people is experience and weight.



Yeah the peaks may last longer, but where's the evidence to suggest Renpa at 60 was a better fighter than at 30? Forget weight obviouisly, I'm just talking straight up ability.

Even in sports - experienced players rarely become better technically, or faster/stronger (unless they weren't in peak shape before). They become better mentally - tactically, instinctually etc. They can't hit a ball further, or put more spin on a ball.



> Genbou below Kanki and Tou in strategy?
> Ouki at #9?



I put Genbou below them two because of his arrogance. Perhaps that has nothing to do with actual strategic ability, but I usually just treat the label of strategy as being how strong they are at handling out, and dealing with plans. Arrogance effects them. Plus Kanki is a damn genius himself. And Tou's defensive work vs Karin was amazing. Although on reflection, maybe I should have said Kanki > Genbou > Tou. 

Ouki was there simply because I think the others are ahead. Gekishin was the hard one, because his ability is based on reading an opponents strategy and then responding, so in a way it is a little instinctual-like. 

I don't see an issue other wise. Gokei for example was a legendary General 100% because of his strategic mind. Gohoumei the same, plus his engineering. Karin was just exceptional in that last war. Actually, I think Karin and Ouki have similar minds - they often think of little details. Ouki sent his flying arrow at Fuuki whilst Karin sent hers at the wall. And both use distractions. 

But again, Ouki trounces the likes of Gohoumei in instincts, combat, leadership. So if he was also superior in strategy, then there's a monster gap between them. Seeing as how Ouki acknowledged that Duke would cause him problems and Duke/Gokei/Gohoumei are around the same level, I don't believe any battle between the two would be easy.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah the peaks may last longer, but where's the evidence to suggest Renpa at 60 was a better fighter than at 30? Forget weight obviouisly, I'm just talking straight up ability.



There really is none, but at the same time, there really has been no evidence to indicate that any of these characters lost ANY of their abilities due to age.



> Even in sports - experienced players rarely become better technically, or faster/stronger (unless they weren't in peak shape before). They become better mentally - tactically, instinctually etc. They can't hit a ball further, or put more spin on a ball.



I disagree, I do think they can become better technically, but not faster/stronger. You usually become slower and weaker as you age.



> I put Genbou below them two because of his arrogance. Perhaps that has nothing to do with actual strategic ability, but I usually just treat the label of strategy as being how strong they are at handling out, and dealing with plans. Arrogance effects them. Plus Kanki is a damn genius himself. And Tou's defensive work vs Karin was amazing. Although on reflection, maybe I should have said Kanki > Genbou > Tou.



I'd consider what Tou and Kanki did to be tactical/instinctual. Actually, let's just go with instinctual since that is what the manga also refers to. Yea, I don't think Kanki or Tou planned what they did beforehand. What Ousen did to Ordo was premeditated as he had that ambush set before ordo even moved out.



> Ouki was there simply because I think the others are ahead. Gekishin was the hard one, because his ability is based on reading an opponents strategy and then responding, so in a way it is a little instinctual-like.
> 
> I don't see an issue other wise. Gokei for example was a legendary General 100% because of his strategic mind. Gohoumei the same, plus his engineering. Karin was just exceptional in that last war. Actually, I think Karin and Ouki have similar minds - they often think of little details. Ouki sent his flying arrow at Fuuki whilst Karin sent hers at the wall. And both use distractions.
> 
> But again, Ouki trounces the likes of Gohoumei in instincts, combat, leadership. So if he was also superior in strategy, then there's a monster gap between them. Seeing as how Ouki acknowledged that Duke would cause him problems and Duke/Gokei/Gohoumei are around the same level, I don't believe any battle between the two would be easy.



Fair enough.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 14, 2014)

Do you think Messi will be more skilful in 5 years time? I don't think so - with experience, he might be able to gain a better awareness of space, knowledge of where his teammates might be. Strategies/tactics, in other words. 

Likewise for Moubu - what's he going to improve on? The only way he could become a better fighter in theory is if at the age of 40 he suddenly starts to fight a new weapon for the first time. But I assume he'll have faced all the usual stuff, so I don't see how experience will help him in direct combat? 

I'm not sure if Tou's defence vs Karin was instinctual. He saw what she was doing and came up with a strategy to counter it. Though his inability to think of an idea better than Ouhon could come up with hurts him in this area.

What do you make of Gekishin? He was a legendary General after all, and pretty underrated it seems, but in actual fact guys like Kanki would have been equal fodder to Houken in that situation. He's definitely in the elite in one area.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Do you think Messi will be more skilful in 5 years time? I don't think so - with experience, he might be able to gain a better awareness of space, knowledge of where his teammates might be. Strategies/tactics, in other words.



Depends, if his body could keep up. KIG, he actually could if he was younger or his body magically could keep up, but most of the times the body can't. However, your latter point is basically what I kept referring to as experience.



> Likewise for Moubu - what's he going to improve on? The only way he could become a better fighter in theory is if at the age of 40 he suddenly starts to fight a new weapon for the first time. But I assume he'll have faced all the usual stuff, so I don't see how experience will help him in direct combat?



With experience, he'll become more actuely aware of his surroundings. This is something that keeps progressing. For example video games, have you ever plate skill-wise at a game you played continuously? I sure as hell haven't. With experience, your body will process information easier and faster, as well as retrieve memory faster. He'll be able to tell from the way the enemy swings or moves his body where the blade might end up before even swinging it. He'll be able to better understand what action would be best at that current situation. Just like how you start being able to tell whether the guy with the basketball will dunk or do a lay-up from the way he moves and the speed.



> I'm not sure if Tou's defence vs Karin was instinctual. He saw what she was doing and came up with a strategy to counter it. Though his inability to think of an idea better than Ouhon could come up with hurts him in this area.



I think we call that tactics, not strategy. What Riboku did during the Coalition war could prolly be considered strategy as he had all of that planned out from the get-go. He even had a contingency plan.



> What do you make of Gekishin? He was a legendary General after all, and pretty underrated it seems, but in actual fact guys like Kanki would have been equal fodder to Houken in that situation. He's definitely in the elite in one area.



Yea, the way he saw through Riboku was pretty impressive; hence why I gave him a pretty nice rank.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 14, 2014)

Just read 390. The spear


----------



## Russel (Jun 15, 2014)

Damn the spear guy receives a lot of hype. I hope the Hype of the firedragons isnt used to display how much Ouhon and Shin has grown. 
How can Qin win this battle against these monsters? Outnumbered and outmuscled. I guess we will see an epic move from Ousen who will save the day.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 15, 2014)

Thanks, ane.

New poll up guys. I figure it will be a stomp, but whatever.


----------



## Orca (Jun 15, 2014)

K. Just read the RAW.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 15, 2014)

> Ouki has also been mentioned several times as the gold standard of martial prowess, most recently with Gaimou.



No kidding Gaimou would mention Ouki since Gaimou has been imprisoned for 14 years and has never even seen Moubu. And no it is not without a question that Ouki is above Moubu or Kanmei. In fact I think Ouki would have a pretty hard time beating either one of them.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 15, 2014)

They'd be Shoumou 2.0

Link removed


----------



## Kanki (Jun 15, 2014)

I just re-read Ouji vs Houken on kiss manga. Definitely the best fight of the series.



Moe-058 said:


> With experience, he'll become more actuely aware of his surroundings. This is something that keeps progressing. For example video games, have you ever plate skill-wise at a game you played continuously? I sure as hell haven't. With experience, your body will process information easier and faster, as well as retrieve memory faster. He'll be able to tell from the way the enemy swings or moves his body where the blade might end up before even swinging it. He'll be able to better understand what action would be best at that current situation. Just like how you start being able to tell whether the guy with the basketball will dunk or do a lay-up from the way he moves and the speed.



I take your point,  but unless there's a new change in fighting styles, what can you learn after 1000 fights that you couldn't learn in 500 fights? There's only so many fighting styles, after all. Whereas there's a million different tactics, strategies etc., which is why I feel experience helps you there, and less so in direct combat once you reach a certain point. 




> I think we call that tactics, not strategy. What Riboku did during the Coalition war could prolly be considered strategy as he had all of that planned out from the get-go. He even had a contingency plan.



Fair enough.




JiraiyaForever said:


> The thing I find interesting is how much credit people give Ouki's weight against Houken.
> 
> Ouki was SLIGHTLY less in strength, speed, and skill against the symbol, pinnacle, ne plus ultra of martial might. It was his weight that gave him JUST ENOUGH to best this mountain three times.  Ouki has also been mentioned several times as the gold standard of martial prowess, most recently with Gaimou.



The pinnacle of martial might is just hype, as he's now even stronger than he was back then. 



> It is without question that Ouki is above Moubu, Kanmei, or Gaimou in martial might.  The category these three actually excel in, is strength.



I put him above Gaimou (as things stand) anyway, but Moubu doesn't just rely on strength. In fact Kanmei was physically stronger than Moubu yet Moubu won.



> I'll also add that Ouki doesn't become a great general under the heavens known throughout ALL of China by barely being in the top 10 of strategy lists, lol.  You could argue that he became known as the Monstrous bird of Qin that always showed up to battles at the most opportune time because of supreme tactics.. Or because it was his plan all along.



Top 3 or 4 in combat
Top 10 in strategy
Top 10 in leadership
Top 3 in instinctual ability
Great in attack
Great in defence

Moubu and Kanmei are genuine great Generals and yet are some way off that. Doesn't mean they can't be ahead of one of the areas though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 15, 2014)

Doesn't look like we are getting a new chapter today, was really hoping to get to see some conclusion to Ouhon vs Shihaku. Hopefully its out early tomorrow.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 15, 2014)

Shame. Ah well. 

I'm curious to see why Shihaku seems to be getting more attention than Gaimou. I would like it if Hara makes it clear that Shihaku was number 1 of the FD, just because it's rare a rival of the MC will take on someone stronger than the MC fights.

Hope we see some reaction from other states soon as well. They must all be pretty concerned at the rumours (which would have spread) regarding 3 of the Fire Dragons. Well, perhaps not Chu, but Zhao and Qi for sure.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 15, 2014)

> I'm curious to see why Shihaku seems to be getting more attention than Gaimou. I would like it if Hara makes it clear that Shihaku was number 1 of the FD, just because it's rare a rival of the MC will take on someone stronger than the MC fights.



Well Gaimou had the whole Ten kidnapping thing, but anyway I think Shihaku will get more attention due to him being in the center of the events that caused them being put to prison in the first place.

If Wei or Qin win this war we should get something from the other states, at the latest it would be after the whole Sei vs Ryo is over.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I believe that Ouki has the strength to keep up with Moubu to some extent and is more skillful and experienced.



Yea, I agree, but this is mere speculation so we shouldn't use this in tier discussions (not referring to you specifically).



lazorwalrus said:


> The reason why I think Renpa wouldn't beat Moubu is the fact that hes physically quite a bit behind. He was already having trouble with Mougou's strength, but Moubu is far above that now.



I honestly do not see Renpa being that physically behind Ouki. Firstly, we really cannot tell how much stronger Moubu is then Mougou - I don't know how you did. Because Mougou is Moubu's father, we can assume that he has absurd strength as stated in the manga:



Then you couple it with the weight he holds against Renpa:


Last left panel. ^


First right panel. ^


Panel 3 and 7 from the left. ^

Brute strength alone, he might be stronger than Renpa:



So what do we have here?

Let's assume that Mougou base strength is around that of Renpa? Why? Because in the above, we see one of the soldiers says, "In brute strength alone, Mougou-sama might even be above Renpa", that basically implies their respective strength must be relatively close to another for one to be uncertain which one is stronger during a contest. Like an arm wrestling match that goes back and forth. Then you factor in the heavy weight Mougou has against Renpa and you see the difference it made. How? Exactly the same way a fatigued Shin was able to repel Houken's blow because of the weight he held against thim.

So you have:
Mougou (base strength) = Renpa (base strength)
Mougou (base strength + weight) > Renpa (base strength)

But what does this tell us? Quite frankly nothing, lol. It doesn't tell us how Renpa would fare against Moubu's strength and it would be unfair to say so. We don't know how strong Moubu strength is, and I can confidently assume that his strength is not greater than Mougou + base strength + weight. No way could Moubu blow someone like Renpa away like that continuously. We don't know the difference between Moubu's base strength and Mougou base strength. Moubu could be a 10, 20, even 30% stronger. I fail to see, from this fight, how we can tell how Renpa would fare against Moubu or Renpa's relative strength to Ouki because we don't know Moubu's strength relative to Mougou.

What this did bring up (as evident in the manga) was technique vs power, which I think would prevail in a Renpa vs Moubu fight.

We also don't have any indication as to what Ouki's strength looks like because we've only had one individual he's fought to compare to.



JiraiyaForever said:


> The thing I find interesting is how much credit people give Ouki's weight against Houken.
> 
> Ouki was SLIGHTLY less in strength, speed, and skill against the symbol, pinnacle, ne plus ultra of martial might. It was his weight that gave him JUST ENOUGH to best this mountain three times.  Ouki has also been mentioned several times as the gold standard of martial prowess, most recently with Gaimou.



You forget how an exhausted Shin's weight was enough for him to repel Houken.



JiraiyaForever said:


> It is without question that Ouki is above Moubu, Kanmei, or Gaimou in martial might.  The category these three actually excel in, is strength.



No, it isn't. There is nothing to indicate such confidence.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 15, 2014)

An acutely injured Houken* 

Impressive none the less, but clarification required.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 15, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> An acutely injured Houken*
> 
> Impressive none the less, but clarification required.



Acknowledged, but acutely might be too strong of a word.

He just couldn't use one of his arm's at full strength.



And when you factor in Shin's utter exhaustion... well, it still sounds ridiculous. All this does is support further recognition of the game-changing effects weight has in the Kingdomverse.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 15, 2014)

Moubu's weight against Renpa might actually be pretty god like. He surprised us all against Kanmei - he was essentially a dead man himself. The challenge of being the strongest in China created that weight.

And the thing with Moubu is that he isn't just straight up power. He managed to defeat Kanmei with skill, as he was actually weaker physically. The same Kanmei who was supposedly undefeated and apparently defeated Oukotsu with speed (to show he isn't just a dumb brute).

Moubu is where he is - arguably at or near the top of China right now, mostly thanks to his combat strength + offensive might. Renpa beats him in strategy, tactics, leadership, instincts....if he also beats him in combat, then the gap between them must be pretty huge. I don't think that's the case. Moubu isn't as great overall as Renpa, but he's up there.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Moubu's weight against Renpa might actually be pretty god like. He surprised us all against Kanmei - he was essentially a dead man himself. The challenge of being the strongest in China created that weight.



Why would his weight against Renpa be Godlike? He has no revenge weight against Renpa and you forget, KIG, that desire to be the strongest doesn't contribute to weight considering Houken himself has close to no weight.





Kanki Is God said:


> And the thing with Moubu is that he isn't just straight up power. He managed to defeat Kanmei with skill, as he was actually weaker physically. The same Kanmei who was supposedly undefeated and apparently defeated Oukotsu with speed (to show he isn't just a dumb brute).



No, he managed to defeat Kanmei because his mace broke. Otherwise they were pretty equal, with Kanmei prolly having the advantage.



Kanki Is God said:


> Renpa beats him in strategy, tactics, leadership, instincts....if he also beats him in combat, then the gap between them must be pretty huge. I don't think that's the case. Moubu isn't as great overall as Renpa, but he's up there.



TBH, I think this is one of the best arguments for Moubu and Kanmei > Ouki and Renpa.

You've told me this a few times, KIG, but I didn't really acknowledge it because I figured Renpa experience weight accounted for the gap, but I see it's validity now.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 16, 2014)

We often say that the Houken that slaughtered Duke was much stronger then the Houken that fought Ouki.  But is that really the case? Looks like Houken had plenty of revenge weight.  

Here

@ Moe and KIG

I also think that's the most logical argument for Moubu > Ouki/Renpa in martial might, however I need to see Moubu fight someone other then his clone to see if he has the speed and skill required to have a chance at a healthy Houken.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> We often say that the Houken that slaughtered Duke was much stronger then the Houken that fought Ouki.  But is that really the case? Looks like Houken had plenty of revenge weight.
> 
> Here



You bring up an interesting point. Originally, I believed that weight was gained for the sake of others - revenge for someone else, servitude of others, weight of being a general, etc.

But then you have Mougou who had a lot of weight against Renpa. You can argue that it was for his own sake or that Mougou's weight was on behalf of all his men that Renpa sent to their graves.

In this instance, I don't think he had any revenge weight though.

But J4F, I don't get what you mean by it. Revenge weight should apply to their respective antagonist; therefore, Houken should not have any weight on Duke. But what does his revenge weight have to do with the past and present Houken.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

> Firstly, we really cannot tell how much stronger Moubu is then Mougou - I don't know how you did. Because Mougou is Moubu's father, we can assume that he has absurd strength as stated in the manga:



There's 3 things that make me think this. Firstly is this page where Mougou is implying that hes past his prime even though Renpa is still in top shape

Moubu on the other hand is still in his prime if not at his very peak.

Secondly, Moubu is even bigger of a man than his father is, actually quite a bit taller. That means that he has more mass and more muscles than his father does


And then there's the stats, Mougou is at 91 and Moubu is at 99. To me this clearly shows that not only is Moubu easily stonger than his father, hes also a better fighter. I mean Mougou probably wouldn't be considered mediocre if he was near Moubu's level in combat, but yet hes considered to be a mediocre a general.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Why would his weight against Renpa be Godlike? He has no revenge weight against Renpa and you forget, KIG, that desire to be the strongest doesn't contribute to weight considering Houken himself has close to no weight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Weight, determination...you can define it in many ways, but just like Ouki thinking of Kyou enabled him to turn the tables, Shouheukun's words to Moubu did the exact same. Read this + the following 2 or 3 pages: Here

Ask yourself, why did Kanmei's mace break? It's never been said that Moubu's mace was any better than Kanmei's, and it was clearly stated that Kanmei was physically the stronger of the two. So that means Moubu won on skill. The timing of his swings, technique or whatever...so clearly Moubu is an incredibly skilled person. When has Renpa showed that skill? 

Then obviously there is Hara's portrayal. I don't think he would have said up this 'battle of the strongest' if in fact, the winner was only 3rd strongest alive. You can accept Houken being stronger because he's a little different. The guy is hardly a General.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah, I think some people are too quick to assume that Moubu isn't incredibly skillful himself. He has dedicated his life to being the strongest man in China, he must of trained for countless of hours with his weapon.

Moubu is more than likely at the very top when it comes to using a mace.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

So...

Mace: Moubu
Sword: Tou
Glaive: Houken
Spear: Shihaku
Arrow: Kyouen

Though it wouldn't surprise me if there's a better bowman + sword user out there.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Chapter is out: Nam Juk-Sung


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

Doesn't look like Ouhon managed to find any weakness in Shihaku. Its quite nice to see Ouhon so shaken up.

But was it just me or was the flashback part kind of hard to understand? Gonna take a few rereads to get everything.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Well, 

- Shihaku and his sister wanted to marry

- The father wouldn't allow it, and apparently paid the 'wife killer' who was one of the FD  (up + left of Gokei)

- He was going to show her mercy if she left Shihaku, but she declined, so he killed her. 

- Shihaku rage commences.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Doesn't look like Ouhon managed to find any weakness in Shihaku. Its quite nice to see Ouhon so shaken up.
> 
> But was it just me or was the flashback part kind of hard to understand? Gonna take a few rereads to get everything.



I am quite confused by the relationships described in the flashbacks.

I think that Shihaku Shijige are stepsiblings. I think when they say tagging along, it means related to the original Shihahku by law. I originally thought that the current Shihaku and Shijige were halfsiblings, but one of the panels says that Shijige was brought in by a different woman - maybe one of his many wives.  But then one of the panel says "They lost their mother...", which makes so sense, TBH. I guess we'll have to wait for TF.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

They were adopted siblings, I though?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 16, 2014)

The power of Imouto should not be underestimated .


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> They were adopted siblings, I though?



Why would they adopt children at that time, ESPECIALLY a girl? I can understand Shihaku, but not Shijige. They could have, we'll see. 

And again they clearly show the difference in skill between Shihaku and Ouhon. Shihahku should not be killed by Ouhon...


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

From the summaries it would seem that Shihaku and Shijige weren't related by blood. 
So its not like Jaime and Cersei.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Shihaku further dominating Ouhon was awesome to see.

I might go back and read Rinko vs Ouhon and see which fight was harder for Ouhon.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

This fight is definitely harder for Ouhon, Ouhon doesn't seem to be able to get anything done, hes completely outclassed. In the fight with Rinko he managed to keep up with him quite well and got some attacks off as well.

Shihaku and Gaimou are both comfortably above Shin and Ouhon, there's no logical way that they would lose to them in this arc. Hara has made the difference so clear so I really doubt hes gonna pull any bullshit and have Shin and Ouhon win during the 3rd day.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

But Ouhon didn't really get a look in vs Rinko and Shin was outclassed twice I believe, before winning thanks to a distraction. I wouldn't say it's clear just yet.

The whole Shin vs Gaimou stuff lasted 5 and a half chapters long. Ouhon vs Shihaku has so far been 4 chapters.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

In their first fight Ouhon was actually keeping Rinko back quite well and wasn't completely being pushed.
but vs Shihaku Ouhon doesn't seem to be capable of doing anything, but run and block after the first scratch he managed to put on Shihaku.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 16, 2014)

Same father, Different mothers = Half siblings

We'll have to wait for TF tho it got sketchy.

Also, Shihaku was breaking into my top 5 before Hara described his spear as "ice cold".  Revenge guys with no ambition are always easy to kill off


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

> I don't see how that implies he's past his prime...


 I don't see why would Mougou say things like Renpa is still in top condition even though they both have become old unless hes implying that he himself is no longer in the same top condition.



> You forget that Mougou is a defensive general that sits patiently in his HQ. Coupled with the fact that his soldiers have only seen him fight once.



If he was somewhere around Moubu's level in combat, he wouldn't be a defensive general. That would make no sense if he truly had abilities nearly on par with Moubu, he would of made a name for himself smashing enemies.



> The question is then do you think Moubu is stronger than Mougou + revenge weight.


I don't think hes that much stronger than that, I'd say that Moubu in his base without any weight or such added is around that level of strength. 



> I've siad time and time again that the way Ouki and Renpa would defeat Moubu and Kanmei would be through their experience and technique.



The reason I have a problem with this is that it almost seems like your assuming that Kanmei or Moubu do not have technique and are simply brutes who just smack around. But like you said nothing points out Renpa being more skilled with his weapon than Moubu is with his mace, at least to an extent where it would make a difference.

And when it comes to combat experience, I'd say Moubu probably has it quite a bit. Hes so completely focused on combat that he definitely should have decent amount of experience. Where as Renpa is an all around general who has experience in all areas, sure he might have more experience in combat than Moubu, but we can't really say how much. Especially now after his fight with Kanmei has given Moubu great experience of fighting against someone who's possibly even stronger than he is.

You might say that the stats are useless, but I still think that they give us some idea where the characters stand. Now if Mougou is actually near Moubu's level of strength, but is still 8 points below him in combat, wouldn't that mean that Moubu has enough technique, speed and strength to put him that much above Mougou in Hara's mind?

Also Kyoukai is quite deadly, she managed not to be stomped by Houken where as Shin got oneshot. She wouldn't get smashed.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I don't see why would Mougou say things like Renpa is still in top condition even though they both have become old unless hes implying that he himself is no longer in the same top condition.



The way I see it, he mentions his old age, because he mentions that he thought he could retire without having to face the man that has complicated his career several times. Then to top if off, Renpa's skills hasn't waned, making the prospect of winning that much harder for him.



> If he was somewhere around Moubu's level in combat, he wouldn't be a defensive general. That would make no sense if he truly had abilities nearly on par with Moubu, he would of made a name for himself smashing enemies.



No, not level of combat, you missunderstood. Moubu's level of combat is much higher than Mougou. Mougou's skill was pretty much trumped by Renpa. So his skill obviously has to be a lot higher for him to stand toe-to-toe against Renpa. BUT, I do not believe that Moubu is that significantly stronger then base Mougou, nor do I think he is as strong as MOugou + weight.




> I don't think hes that much stronger than that, I'd say that Moubu in his base without any weight or such added is around that level of strength.



So you do realize that you are saying that Moubu would toss Renpa around like a ragdoll?




> The reason I have a problem with this is that it almost seems like your assuming that Kanmei or Moubu do not have technique and are simply brutes who just smack around. But like you said nothing points out Renpa being more skilled with his weapon than Moubu is with his mace, at least to an extent where it would make a difference.
> 
> And when it comes to combat experience, I'd say Moubu probably has it quite a bit. Hes so completely focused on combat that he definitely should have decent amount of experience. Where as Renpa is an all around general who has experience in all areas, sure he might have more experience in combat than Moubu, but we can't really say how much. Especially now after his fight with Kanmei has given Moubu great experience of fighting against someone who's possibly even stronger than he is.



No, Moubu and Kanmei are skilled, it's just that Renpa has like 20-30 years of experience on them. That is a lot of time where experience would hone his technique, coupled with the fact that he is STILL in his prime. That panel also basically destroys the Ouki and Renpa aging theory.



> You might say that the stats are useless, but I still think that they give us some idea where the characters stand.



Yea, so do I as stated, but when you bring up stats like that in an debate, they are useless, because I could structure an argument as to why Kyoukai could match Moubu's strength because of her 95 base stat + the strength that comes with the speed involved with her dance.



> Now if Mougou is actually near Moubu's level of strength, but is still 8 points below him in combat, wouldn't that mean that Moubu has enough technique, speed and strength to put him that much above Mougou in Hara's mind?



Lazor, sorry if I wasn't clear. Renpa stomped Mougou. Of course Moubu has to be quite above Mougou (in speed and technique, but not so much in strength. I'd say around 20-30% stronger than base Mougou) in order to be in the same tier as Renpa. Mougou's use of technique was pretty half-assed as Renpa himself stated so.



> Also Kyoukai is quite deadly, she managed not to be stomped by Houken where as Shin got oneshot. She wouldn't get smashed.



Smashed as in if she received tried to block Moubu's attack. I'd say that Renpa could block Moubu's maces for a bit before it starts being too much to bear, but I don't see Kyoukai being able to do that DESPITE having a whopping 95 stats in strength, hence why I find stats to be useless.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 16, 2014)

Strength stat is not pure physical strength(how much you bench press)


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

> So you do realize that you are saying that Moubu would toss Renpa around like a ragdoll?



If Moubu gets a proper swing at him with all of his strength, I think yeah, he would throw Renpa away. 
But no, not like a ragdoll, but Renpa would definitely have trouble standing his ground against Moubu.
Also you can see that Mougou was only blowing Renpa away when Renpa blocked him, I think there would be a different outcome if Renpa was attacking Mougou and going blow for blow.
Mougou was temporarily pushing Renpa back and not giving him any chance to strike back, but the moment Renpa decided to counter attack he sent Mougou flying from his horse.
But yeah, if Renpa tried to block Moubu's mace he would be thrown away considering that even Kanmei was blown away a few times.
When I look at how Moubu and Kanmei were throwing blows at each other, I just can't really imagine anyone else expect for Houken being able to stay alive at the receiving end of those blows.

We really need to see a glaive vs mace fight to get some idea as to how it would go tbh.


> Smashed as in if she received tried to block Moubu's attack. I'd say that Renpa could block Moubu's maces for a bit before it starts being too much to bear, but I don't see Kyoukai being able to do that DESPITE having a whopping 95 stats in strength, hence why I find stats to be useless.



Kyoukai is about speed and precise and deadly attacks, of course she wouldn't be blocking Moubu. She would dance around him just like she did with Houken. The stats are about overall combat ability not just physical strength. Altho Kyoukai is one of the cases where the stats do seem to be a bit too high.
Then again the breathing does give her some extra physical strength as well, but she wouldn't be blocking Moubu still.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Strength stat is not pure physical strength(how much you bench press)



I know, but I believe pure physical strength is the biggest determinant in that score. It would explain why Mouten has 88 in strength despite being quite skilled with a sword.

Despite that, Kyoukai's strength stats is too high IMO, while Moubu's strength stats is too low RELATIVE to the other characters.

Duke's strength stat is 95, yet we all would agree that Moubu is on a whole another tier in strength and technique compared to Duke - yet their scores differ by 4. WTH, man?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

> Duke's strength stat is 95, yet we all would agree that Moubu is on a whole another tier in strength and technique compared to Duke - yet their scores differ by 4. WTH, man?



Moubu is at 99 and Duke is at 95. That's a pretty big difference from what we have seen. I mean Ouki at 98 is completely capable of stomping someone at 93 with 1 blow. Only Houken has higher stats than Moubu in combat.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I was thinking that it was servitude weight. Hmm, so can weight be gained from selfish reasons? This doesn't explain why Houken as no weight... so explain that to me, KIG.



Weight can come in different ways - Moubu's weight in this point was effected by his own determination and trust from Shouheikun. Those words from his best friend somehow enabled him to find another level. Shouheikun had faith in him and Moubu remembered that just as he was seemingly about to lose. What else can you call that other than weight? 




> You aren't thinking this through, KIG. His skill didn't break Kanmei's mace, why would it? There are actual weapon styles that focus on breaking the enemies weapons, but there has been no implication that Moubu practises that style. His skill had nothing "special" to do with Kanmei's mace breaking. Why would the timing of his swings or technique have any effects on Kanmei breaking his mace, UNLESS it was intentional - essentially making it  a weapon technique that focuses on breaking weapons. Honestly, it was just chance that Moubu broke Kanmei's mace. It could have very well been Moubu's mace.



I'm not saying Moubu was tactically trying to break the mace, but if you have two sticks clashing, certain clashes will affect the weapon. If we're in a mace or sword fight there could be a moment where you're blocking so much that it damages your mace more than mine. 

We could be looking too far into this, but suggesting that this was just a chance victory and that there was an equal chance that Kanmei could have won, goes against what Hara was showing us. This was a fight where Moubu was just that little bit better. And he did that despite being physically weaker. 




> Here, it looks like he had his mace replaced. See how there are no cracks? ^


I can't really tell anything from that picture tbh, but I don't see the relevance anyway. Even if there was a slight crack, Moubu would be better off getting rid. A tennis player changes the racket when there's a crack regardless of how big or small.



> I know Moubu is skilled, I don't think I've ever said otherwise.



I think you are though, or rather you're overrated Renpa's skill. Your evidence is Renpa managing to skillfully defeat Mougou who may have been similar strength. My evidence is Moubu defeating Kanmei despite having lesser strength. 

I don't see how your evidence can even compare to mine. Kanmei is an absolute monster. A man who out-maneuvered Oukotsu. A man who was undefeated and clearly doesn't just rely on straight up power as his favored weapon appears to be a sword. Mougou has never, ever been shown to have more skill. I'm sure Rinko could have defeated in in combat despite being physically inferior. Does that mean Rinko can somehow beat Moubu with his skill?




> Remember the many debates we've had about Ouki and Renpa vs Moubu and Kanmei? I've siad time and time again that the way Ouki and Renpa would defeat Moubu and Kanmei would be through their experience and technique.
> 
> Renpa was clearly outmatched in strength, yet his technique allowed him to stomp Mougou.



But Kanmei and Moubu themselves have experience. Kanmei is probably about 45-50 years old himself and undefeated after winning 100 battles at least. He will have faced many, many enemies. Kanmei was skill full enough to defeat a Great General who was Qin's strongest physically. He's experienced as hell. 

What can Renpa have learnt more, physically, than Kanmei? Particularly as Renpa is as much strategic as he is a combatant. 



> Renpa walked away with almost no injuries compared to Mougou.
> Moubu's technique might be great, but Renpa technique is prolly even greater, but since this is running of hype and speculation, I can't place Renpa above Moubu because Renpa lacks proper fight panels.



What do you base this statement from? The fact that he outmaneuvered Mougou? You think Moubu couldn't have done that? Or Kanmei? If Moubu could outmaneuver Kanmei, who could outmaneuver Oukotsu, do you think he couldn't do the exact same to Mougou?

What hype does Renpa have to put him at the top of China? What speculation? He's never, ever been hypes as the strongest combatant. Moubu has. 




> Um, you've yourself stated that Hara wants us to look at Moubu as the next thing, the next beast that China has yet to see. I think that was clearly what Hara was trying to set up. That part of the arc was basically a setup for Moubu's future as possibly the most powerful man in China. Then you have to consider that Hara said that despite Houken being CLEARLY the most powerful person in Qin atm.



Hara doesn't want to show Moubu as being the 'next' big thing, he wants us to see him as the current big thing. It was the battle to see who IS the strongest, not who WILL be. Moubu is right now regarded as the number 1. Defeated Kanmei, is the symbol of Qin's army etc. He's at the top now. His fighting is set. The only way he can become stronger is mentally. After all it's exactly that which Hara focused on when comparing Moubu to his former self. Nowhere did it say Moubu was a better fighter now than he was 3 years ago. He improved in other areas.

Houken is a little different, because he walks a different path. He's on his own. Renpa, Kanmei, Moubu, Ouki - they're together. On the same path. Houken is a General in title only. He's also still a character shrouded in mystery to other states (less so, now). So Hara has less reason to include him in on-panel debates about rankings.


----------



## Orca (Jun 16, 2014)

According to the summary, Shihaku jr and Shi jige are siblings but not related by blood at all. Shihaku sr. married two women who already had children. 

Was Kanjou a bigwig in Ousen's army? 

Great chapter though.


----------



## Zhen Chan (Jun 16, 2014)

Ouhon literally cant even touch shihaku

Lmao. Shin 4 Ouhon 0


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Shin vs Shikaku and Ouhon vs Gaimou would have been interesting 

Maybe at one point we'll actually see something like that.



Luffee said:


> According to the summary, Shihaku jr and Shi jige are siblings but not related by blood at all. Shihaku sr. married two women who already had children.
> 
> Was Kanjou a bigwig in Ousen's army?
> 
> Great chapter though.



Only a 1k commander, but that doesn't mean much. Might be a special independent unit who did vital tasks or something.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Moubu is at 99 and Duke is at 95. That's a pretty big difference from what we have seen. I mean Ouki at 98 is completely capable of stomping someone at 93 with 1 blow. Only Houken has higher stats than Moubu in combat.



I think the stats would be more accurate if we subtracted all of the strength stats by 90...



Kanki Is God said:


> Weight can come in different ways - Moubu's weight in this point was effected by his own determination and trust from Shouheikun. Those words from his best friend somehow enabled him to find another level. Shouheikun had faith in him and Moubu remembered that just as he was seemingly about to lose. What else can you call that other than weight?



I'm trying to determine what fueled that weight. As we've seen with Houken, selfish desires do not fuel weight. Being the strongest IS a selfish desire, something that both Houken and Moubu share. If it worked for Moubu, then it should have worked for Houken, but it hasn't. We've seen time and time again the puzzlement on Houken's face as to what allowed Ouki, Duke, and Shin to give him as much trouble as they did. That is why I don't believe Moubu's weight came from him being the strongest, but rather in servitude to Shouheikun, his friend, and to Qin. If you believe otherwise, then I'd like to hear reasoning as to why weight hasn't helped Houken. I'm not saying you are wrong, you could very well be right, but from what we've seen so far. Weight has usually been fueled by a cause for someone else. Moubu's desire to be the strongest is not for anyone, but himself.




> I'm not saying Moubu was tactically trying to break the mace, but if you have two sticks clashing, certain clashes will affect the weapon. If we're in a mace or sword fight there could be a moment where you're blocking so much that it damages your mace more than mine.



Yea, but I don't think Moubu's skill allowed him to do that because then you'd be implying that breaking Kanmei's mace was intentional on Moubu's part and not a result of fate.

We could be looking too far into this, but suggesting that this was just a chance victory and that there was an equal chance that Kanmei could have won, goes against what Hara was showing us. This was a fight where Moubu was just that little bit better. And he did that despite being physically weaker. 

No, it was by chance that Kanmei's mace broke before MOubu's. Moubu's could have easily broken before Kanmei's. Both men are almost equal in strength and skill, they are mirror copies of eachother, but it was clear that Moubu was the better overall fighter by the end of it. Even if the mace had not broken, I would have still believed Moubu would have won because of his weight and determination, but to say that Moubu skill allowed him to break Kanmei's mace is a bit ludachris, IMO. 




> I can't really tell anything from that picture tbh, but I don't see the relevance anyway. Even if there was a slight crack, Moubu would be better off getting rid. A tennis player changes the racket when there's a crack regardless of how big or small.



It was to point out that BOTH maces were in terrible condition - meaning that either mace could have given out at any time.



> I think you are though, or rather you're overrated Renpa's skill. Your evidence is Renpa managing to skillfully defeat Mougou who may have been similar strength. My evidence is Moubu defeating Kanmei despite having lesser strength.



I might be overrating Renpa's skill, but this is just an opinion formed from his well-deserved hype and speculation, hence why I didn't factor it into my tier list after Lazor pointed it out.



> I don't see how your evidence can even compare to mine. Kanmei is an absolute monster. A man who out-maneuvered Oukotsu. A man who was undefeated and clearly doesn't just rely on straight up power as his favored weapon appears to be a sword.



Sorry, what?



> Mougou has never, ever been shown to have more skill.



???



> I'm sure Rinko could have defeated in in combat despite being physically inferior. Does that mean Rinko can somehow beat Moubu with his skill?



No, because Renpa is most likely vastly more skilled then Rinko. The analogy doesn't match. Despite Renpa being physically inferior, I do believe he could beat Moubu using his skill and 20-30 years of experience.



> But Kanmei and Moubu themselves have experience. Kanmei is probably about 45-50 years old himself and undefeated after winning 100 battles at least. He will have faced many, many enemies. Kanmei was skill full enough to defeat a Great General who was Qin's strongest physically. He's experienced as hell.
> 
> What can Renpa have learnt more, physically, than Kanmei? Particularly as Renpa is as much strategic as he is a combatant.



I'm not denying that either Moubu and Kanmei are skilled, I don't know what I said that makes you guys think this. These guys are utter monsters, both strength and skillwise. I just, simple, believe that because of the experience that Renpa has on them, which is many, many years, that what will give him the edge, skill and technique-wise to pull out a win.



> What do you base this statement from?


Hype and speculation. Hence why I've said from the get-go that it was just my opinion and I did not factor it in to my tier list.



> The fact that he outmaneuvered Mougou? You think Moubu couldn't have done that? Or Kanmei? If Moubu could outmaneuver Kanmei, who could outmaneuver Oukotsu, do you think he couldn't do the exact same to Mougou?



I'm not saying that. I never once said that. Renpa + 20-30 years of experience on Kanmei and Moubu = more skill and technique = Prolly enough to edge out w in. I can't say it any other way. Potential wise, Moubu and Kanmei > Renpa.



> What hype does Renpa have to put him at the top of China?



The fact that he is a freakin Deva? The last one at that? The last one living in generation of non-stop warfare against the likes of G6, 7D, Qi, God of War? They spent like half the manga on this. 



> What speculation? He's never, ever been hypes as the strongest combatant. Moubu has.



... yet Houken would defeat Moubu.




> Hara doesn't want to show Moubu as being the 'next' big thing, he wants us to see him as the current big thing. It was the battle to see who IS the strongest, not who WILL be. Moubu is right now regarded as the number 1. Defeated Kanmei, is the symbol of Qin's army etc. He's at the top now. His fighting is set. The only way he can become stronger is mentally. After all it's exactly that which Hara focused on when comparing Moubu to his former self. Nowhere did it say Moubu was a better fighter now than he was 3 years ago. He improved in other areas.



No, he became the next big thing when he cemented that position after defeating Kanmei. NOW he is the current big thing. Before facing Kanmei, he was POSSIBLY the next big thing, but after he did defeat possibly the 3rd most powerful man in China, be became the current big thing. I don't see Moubu progressing mentally, TBH.




Luffee said:


> According to the summary, Shihaku jr and Shi jige are siblings but not related by blood at all. Shihaku sr. married two women who already had children.
> 
> Was Kanjou a bigwig in Ousen's army?
> 
> Great chapter though.



Yea, I think they are stepsiblings as well. It'd make more sense this way. 

Kanjou might have been, but that begs the question. Was Kanjou a 1k general in Ousen's army as well?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 16, 2014)

The translation this time was pretty awkward.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'm trying to determine what fueled that weight. As we've seen with Houken, selfish desires do not fuel weight. Being the strongest IS a selfish desire, something that both Houken and Moubu share. If it worked for Moubu, then it should have worked for Houken, but it hasn't. We've seen time and time again the puzzlement on Houken's face as to what allowed Ouki, Duke, and Shin to give him as much trouble as they did. That is why I don't believe Moubu's weight came from him being the strongest, but rather in servitude to Shouheikun, his friend, and to Qin. If you believe otherwise, then I'd like to hear reasoning as to why weight hasn't helped Houken. I'm not saying you are wrong, you could very well be right, but from what we've seen so far. Weight has usually been fueled by a cause for someone else. Moubu's desire to be the strongest is not for anyone, but himself.



I also used the Shouheikun example so I wouldn't disagree lol. 



> Yea, but I don't think Moubu's skill allowed him to do that because then you'd be implying that breaking Kanmei's mace was intentional on Moubu's part and not a result of fate.



I'm not - Moubu may not have meant to break the mace, but his superior skill resulted in Kanmei's mace being more likely to smash. 




> No, it was by chance that Kanmei's mace broke before MOubu's. Moubu's could have easily broken before Kanmei's. Both men are almost equal in strength and skill, they are mirror copies of eachother, but it was clear that Moubu was the better overall fighter by the end of it. Even if the mace had not broken, I would have still believed Moubu would have won because of his weight and determination, but to say that Moubu skill allowed him to break Kanmei's mace is a bit ludachris, IMO.



Did Moubu even have a sword on him? If his mace breaks, Kanmei kills him. Moubu's mace was close to smashing because the two were so equal. But due to him being slightly superior, Moubu did the damage first. But that isn't by chance. Perhaps both were one big blow away from losing their weapon and Moubu was just that bit quicker to land the blow? But again, that's showing Moubu had the skill advantage.



> It was to point out that BOTH maces were in terrible condition - meaning that either mace could have given out at any time.



Yeah, but they didn't. Kanmei's smashed first because Moubu was slightly better.



> I might be overrating Renpa's skill, but this is just an opinion formed from his well-deserved hype and speculation, hence why I didn't factor it into my tier list after Lazor pointed it out.



Yeah Renpa's hype is justified - I put him in the top 5 in pure combat alone (and arguably number 1 overall). But we're talking specific combat ability. There's never been the combat-hype for Renpa as for Moubu.



> Sorry, what?



Kanmei said it has been 10 years since he had used his mace. His favored weapon was obviously a sword which is skill-based. 




> ???



I meant Moubu has never been shown to have much fighting skill. Your evidence is largely based around Renpa out-maneuvering Mougou. I use Kanmei out-maneuvering Oukotsu and Moubu out-maneuvering Kanmei as my primary evidence. 

I think there's an odd one out there.



> No, because Renpa is most likely vastly more skilled then Rinko. The analogy doesn't match. Despite Renpa being physically inferior, I do believe he could beat Moubu using his skill and 20-30 years of experience.



No you missed my point. I'm saying Rinko could have defeated Mougou as well. I was using it as an example to show how defeating Mougou with pure skill isn't a top-level feat. 



> I'm not denying that either Moubu and Kanmei are skilled, I don't know what I said that makes you guys think this. These guys are utter monsters, both strength and skill wise. I just, simple, believe that because of the experience that Renpa has on them, which is many, many years, that what will give him the edge, skill and technique-wise to pull out a win.



I guess it's coming back to this experience thing. There's more to skill than just experience. Experience doesn't necessarily make you quickler, or stronger, or more accurate. At least it doesn't when you're talking about two guys who have spent 30-50 years on the battlefield each.

In fact, this experience idea is flawed in a way because Renpa wasn't the fighter that Moubu was. He's a combination of everything. He avoided fighting Gaimou. Moubu would have been right in there for the fight. It's not actually that absurd to suggest Moubu and Kanmei could have had a similar amount of major 1 on 1 fights than Renpa because he's won his wars in a variety of ways. 



> Hype and speculation. Hence why I've said from the get-go that it was just my opinion and I did not factor it in to my tier list.



But what is this hype? Where has it ever been said or suggested that Renpa could be the best combatant? He's the best overall, sure. 



> I'm not saying that. I never once said that. Renpa + 20-30 years of experience on Kanmei and Moubu = more skill and technique = Prolly enough to edge out w in. I can't say it any other way. Potential wise, Moubu and Kanmei > Renpa.



I replied to this above...



> The fact that he is a freakin Deva? The last one at that? The last one living in generation of non-stop warfare against the likes of G6, 7D, Qi, God of War? They spent like half the manga on this.



This doesn't show in any way that Renpa is the strongest combatant in China. It proves he's arguably the strongest overall General, but we're talking about 1 specific attribute.



> ... yet Houken would defeat Moubu.



Houken is an anomaly. He's still hidden in mystery. He's not there, then he arrives, wins and leaves. A bit like Ousen. 



> No, he became the next big thing when he cemented that position after defeating Kanmei. NOW he is the current big thing. Before facing Kanmei, he was POSSIBLY the next big thing, but after he did defeat possibly the 3rd most powerful man in China, be became the current big thing. I don't see Moubu progressing mentally, TBH.



That's what I said. He's regarded as the current number 1. Why isn't Renpa regarded as the number 1 combatant? He's in Chu and is still an active General within the series.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I'm not - Moubu may not have meant to break the mace, but his superior skill resulted in Kanmei's mace being more likely to smash.
> 
> Did Moubu even have a sword on him? If his mace breaks, Kanmei kills him. Moubu's mace was close to smashing because the two were so equal. But due to him being slightly superior, Moubu did the damage first. But that isn't by chance. Perhaps both were one big blow away from losing their weapon and Moubu was just that bit quicker to land the blow? But again, that's showing Moubu had the skill advantage.Yeah, but they didn't. Kanmei's smashed first because Moubu was slightly better.



Okay, this I can agree with. I'll rescind my earlier statement that I thought it had more to do with chance then Moubu's skill; however, I do think that Moubu's mace could have also broken. I do not believe that out of 10 matches, that Moubu would keep breaking them over and over again. I'd give it 6 or 7/10 for Moubu. THAT is how close I saw the fight.



> No you missed my point. I'm saying Rinko could have defeated Mougou as well. I was using it as an example to show how defeating Mougou with pure skill isn't a top-level feat.



No, you missed my point as well. I never intended to highlight whether that was a top-level feat, but rather what strength vs technique would look like.



> I guess it's coming back to this experience thing. There's more to skill than just experience. Experience doesn't necessarily make you quickler, or stronger, or more accurate. At least it doesn't when you're talking about two guys who have spent 30-50 years on the battlefield each.



What more is there to skill than experience once you reach your peak physically?
Experience would make you more accurate. Your strength and speed would plateau depending on the kind of resistance your body is enduring. 



> Yeah Renpa's hype is justified - I put him in the top 5 in pure combat alone (and arguably number 1 overall). But we're talking specific combat ability. There's never been the combat-hype for Renpa as for Moubu.
> 
> In fact, this experience idea is flawed in a way because Renpa wasn't the fighter that Moubu was. He's a combination of everything. He avoided fighting Gaimou. Moubu would have been right in there for the fight. It's not actually that absurd to suggest Moubu and Kanmei could have had a similar amount of major 1 on 1 fights than Renpa because he's won his wars in a variety of ways.
> 
> ...



I am speculating that Renpa and Ouki are better fighters, both skill and technique-wise, than Moubu and Kanmei?

*Based on what?*

Based on their respective hype and flashbacks. Renpa has been warring for the majority of the Warring Generation. He's encountered the G6 countless times. Possibly even the 7D, and monsters from Qi, Yan, and Han. Monsters that, IMO, outshine the current generals. And I can confidently say he's been fighting monsters for the majority of his life. Renpa has roughly 20 years on Moubu and Kanmei. Last time I checked, 20 years is a long time to continuously improve your skill and technique, not so much your strength. Moubu and Kanmei may be physically stronger than Renpa, but I believe that Renpa's superior skill and technique granted from the years of experience he has over Moubu and kanmei would give him the edge.

This is merely my opinion, based on my gut, hype, and speculation. I can't back it up with manga feats AS WELL as I could for Moubu and Kanmei. That is why I have placed Moubu and Kanmei above Renpa, because this is just merely my opinion, based on hype and speculation, that I would NEVER use in a debate because I can not back it up. If I could, it would not be speculation. Again, why I placed Moubu and Kanmei above Renpa. I honestly cannot say anything more regarding the manner.



> That's what I said. He's regarded as the current number 1. Why isn't Renpa regarded as the number 1 combatant? He's in Chu and is still an active General within the series.



Because Hara is trying to redirect attention to Moubu. Also, Renpa would NEVER be regarded as the number 1 combatant.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

One of the bigger reasons as to why I don't want to put Renpa or Ouki above Moubu in combat is because that would make them too perfect. Not only are their very capable in every other area and they would also be superior fighters to the strongest of this current generation? That just seems too much for me.

Moubu was considered by Ouki himself to be talented enough to be part of the 6GG and we all know that Moubu is there because of his physical might and if someone like Renpa who could be part of the 6 with any of his traits really is superior to him in combat it just makes him look way too good and nearly impossible to surpass.

Generals like Moubu and Ousen are the current very top tier of Qin should be at least on par if not even superior in some aspects than the monsters of the old generation.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> One of the bigger reasons as to why I don't want to put Renpa or Ouki above Moubu in combat is because that would make them too perfect. Not only are their very capable in every other area and they would also be superior fighters to the strongest of this current generation? That just seems too much for me.



The way I see it, the way they presented Ouki and Renpa is just that, almost perfect, sitting at the apex of everything that Kingdom represents - seats that I believe Moubu and Ousen will soon share/overtake within a few years because, as I've said before, I believe their potential and rate of progression is higher.



> Moubu was considered by Ouki himself to be talented enough to be part of the 6GG and we all know that Moubu is there because of his physical might and if someone like Renpa who could be part of the 6 with any of his traits really is superior to him in combat it just makes him look way too good and nearly impossible to surpass.



Not really. I just don't think the pre-TS Moubu was ready yet for pre-TS Renpa. Post-TS Moubu could very well have surpassed him.



> Generals like Moubu and Ousen are the current very top tier of Qin, they should be at least on par if not even superior in some aspects than the monsters of the old generation.



Maybe some of the less reputable members.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Okay, this I can agree with. I'll rescind my earlier statement that I thought it had more to do with chance then Moubu's skill; however, I do think that Moubu's mace could have also broken. I do not believe that out of 10 matches, that Moubu would keep breaking them over and over again. I'd give it 6 or 7/10 for Moubu. THAT is how close I saw the fight.



Yeah that's fair enough. It was clearly an extreme difficulty match. Arguably the closest we've seen in the series so far.



> No, you missed my point as well. I never intended to highlight whether that was a top-level feat, but rather what strength vs technique would look like.



Not quite, because Mougou has never really been shown to have any skill. Renpa probably elite skill and very high strength. Mougou I would say average skill and high strength.

It's never really as simple as 'strength vs technique'. Someone who's slightly better technically would probably lose to someone much stronger physically. You have to weigh the two up. 



> What more is there to skill than experience once you reach your peak physically?
> Experience would make you more accurate. Your strength and speed would plateau depending on the kind of resistance your body is enduring.



But Moubu will have gained that experience already, as he has already had those fights. I think you're exaggerating the difference between say, 30 years of experience to 50 years of experience. The odds are, both will have faced virtually all combat scenario's. Fighting ability levels out. It's not like strategy or intuition which technically, you can improve continuously until your brain slows down. 

I'll go back to what I said before, but Moubu will have had 30 years of straight fighting. That's what he does. You'd probably be able to count on one hand the amount of times he's taken the strategic approach. Renpa on the other hand, will have done that a lot. 

Moubu could have 10 battles, with 9 of them involving a 1 on 1 fight.
Renpa could have had 20 battles, with 10 of them involving a 1 on 1 fight.

We saw this in the last arc - Renpa avoided Gaimou. Moubu has likely never, ever avoided anyone. 




> I am speculating that Renpa and Ouki are better fighters, both skill and technique-wise, than Moubu and Kanmei?
> 
> *Based on what?*
> 
> ...



Duke fought in that same era and was on the battlefield as much as anyone. He likely had MORE experience than even Renpa. Moubu would defeat him though. 

Oukotsu was a member of Qin's 6 Generals. He fought against Zhao's Heavens, Wei's Dragons, Han's fodder...and he also fought against Kanmei. And got crushed. 

Renpa definitely outshines Moubu and Kanmei as overall Generals and I don't think anyone would disagree, but just being in that era doesn't mean you're a better fighter than the number 1 or 2 fighter of the current era. 

How do we even know Renpa spent time fighting those top tier fighters anyway? Because we have some clear evidence that actually claims the opposite. He didn't want to fight Gaimou. Being a member of Zhao's 3 Heavens doesn't mean you're a better fighter than Kanmei or Moubu, or even that you fought many more elite opponents in combat - especially when you're also a strategic genius who can out-think 95% of China.



> . Also, Renpa would NEVER be regarded as the number 1 combatant.



Why not? I thought this was a person who fought all the legends in direct combat?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

> Not really. I just don't think the pre-TS Moubu was ready yet for pre-TS Renpa. Post-TS Moubu could very well have surpassed him.



I think Moubu showed us with the fight vs Kanmei that he truly stands at the very top of martial might with Houken.
I don't think hes going to get much stronger than he is now, he showcased us how he can overcome even a guy who's physically slightly stronger than he is and has way superior experience. I think Moubu as he is right now is at his very prime.

Only way he can improve now as a general is if he starts utilizing tactics more, like actually making use of his son who's been studying strategy just for the sake of helping his father. 

But like Renpa said its going to come down to what ifs and such since we will probably never see these old monsters going against the new ones again. I guess Houken and Riboku are good benchmarks still since we know how they rank up against guys like Ouki. 

I wonder what will Hara do with Renpa in the future, I doubt he would just forget about him. Maybe Renpa could do something still.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Not quite, because Mougou has never really been shown to have any skill. Renpa probably elite skill and very high strength. Mougou I would say average skill and high strength.
> 
> It's never really as simple as 'strength vs technique'. Someone who's slightly better technically would probably lose to someone much stronger physically. You have to weigh the two up.



I have, but what did we get from his match against Kanmei? It was mostly a show of strength, not skill.

Shin jumping to the side with his horse, or Mouten's use of parry is what I'd consider a proper skill showing. Even Shihaku vs Ouhon was, not  bunch of maces hitting each other over and over again.




> But Moubu will have gained that experience already, as he has already had those fights. I think you're exaggerating the difference between say, 30 years of experience to 50 years of experience. The odds are, both will have faced virtually all combat scenario's. Fighting ability levels out. It's not like strategy or intuition which technically, you can improve continuously until your brain slows down.
> 
> I'll go back to what I said before, but Moubu will have had 30 years of straight fighting. That's what he does. You'd probably be able to count on one hand the amount of times he's taken the strategic approach. Renpa on the other hand, will have done that a lot.
> 
> ...



I never implied this. Nor do we have any inclination that Gaimou's leuitenant wasn't shit-talking. 
We don't know for sure; hence the speculation. Let's just agree to dissagree. We aren't going anywhere with this and it is becoming a waste of time now. No use debatin' speculation.



> Duke fought in that same era and was on the battlefield as much as anyone. He likely had MORE experience than even Renpa. Moubu would defeat him though.
> 
> Oukotsu was a member of Qin's 6 Generals. He fought against Zhao's Heavens, Wei's Dragons, Han's fodder...and he also fought against Kanmei. And got crushed.



Potential and rate of progression, much?



> Renpa definitely outshines Moubu and Kanmei as overall Generals and I don't think anyone would disagree, but just being in that era doesn't mean you're a better fighter than the number 1 or 2 fighter of the current era.



I was speaking about experience. They've always had a flow of antagonists, we are still being introduced to a bunch of them as we speak.




> Why not? I thought this was a person who fought all the legends in direct combat?



Houken...? Ouki...? Are you like being snide now?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I wonder what will Hara do with Renpa in the future, I doubt he would just forget about him. Maybe Renpa could do something still.



I have so many creative ideas with Ousen. Most are probably crap but ah well. If we see a final Chu vs Qin war and Ousen is around, have him face Renpa. Kind of like a rematch. Renpa in his own mind is challenging Ousen to see if he really is worthy of being held in the same regard as Renpa and Ouki (which I think he will). It can finish again with a bit of a stalemate, or a situation where it's interrupted so up to us to determine who would have won. Or, have Renpa win. He acknowledges Ousen's strength but says Ousen isn't the one to surpass him/Ouki....Shin is.

I've said my other idea (and theory) about Ousen vs Ordo II a few times. 



Moe-058 said:


> I have, but what did we get from his match against Kanmei? It was mostly a show of strength, not skill.



It was strength and skill. Look at how they parried each others attacks. They were going full at it, attacking and blocking each other. That's why the fight was so incredible to those watching (only Houken/Ouki can compare). Two absolute monsters with immense skill going at it, blow for blow.



> Shin jumping to the side with his horse, or Mouten's use of parry is what I'd consider a proper skill showing. Even Shihaku vs Ouhon was, not  bunch of maces hitting each other over and over again.



If you look at chapter 311 and 312, there was also a lot of skillfull moves in there. Kanmei did that trick where he basically swung his mace in a circle, there was a LOT of blocking, which is skill and naturally the exchanges were skill full too. 

I think you're ignoring the skill involved, just because of the strength. What makes them so godly is that they have both. Kanmei was also too sharp and fast for Oukotsu, one of Qin's 6 Generals. I think you're focusing so much on how strong they are, that you're missign the skill.



> I never implied this. Nor do we have any inclination that Gaimou's leuitenant wasn't shit-talking.
> We don't know for sure; hence the speculation. Let's just agree to dissagree. We aren't going anywhere with this and it is becoming a waste of time now. No use debatin' speculation.



From the statements I think one fact that is clear, is that both Gaimou and Renpa's armies faced each other, yet neither of them clashed directly. Gaimou likes to call people out so I doubt he pussied out. 

Where the Wei bias came in was when he said Renpa/Ouki avoided the fight because they know they'd lose. I ignore that. But there's no reason for Hara to add the previous statements. The most logical way to interpret that whole scene was Ouki/Renpa knew what Shin said - that he's easier to beat strategically than in combat. 




> Potential and rate of progression, much?


I don't get this?



> I was speaking about experience. They've always had a flow of antagonists, we are still being introduced to a bunch of them as we speak.



Yeah then my point is Duke faced these guys, as did Oukotsu, Kyou - 3 Generals who love a fight that would lose to Moubu and Kanmei.




> Houken...? Ouki...? Are you like being snide now?



lol not my intention...


----------



## Veggie (Jun 16, 2014)

I take my hat off to you guys. You really get into them Kingdom discussions


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I've said my other idea (and theory) about Ousen vs Ordo II a few times.



I don't recall this.



> It was strength and skill. Look at how they parried each others attacks. They were going full at it, attacking and blocking each other. That's why the fight was so incredible to those watching (only Houken/Ouki can compare). Two absolute monsters with immense skill going at it, blow for blow.
> 
> If you look at chapter 311 and 312, there was also a lot of skillfull moves in there. Kanmei did that trick where he basically swung his mace in a circle, there was a LOT of blocking, which is skill and naturally the exchanges were skill full too.
> 
> I think you're ignoring the skill involved, just because of the strength. What makes them so godly is that they have both. Kanmei was also too sharp and fast for Oukotsu, one of Qin's 6 Generals. I think you're focusing so much on how strong they are, that you're missign the skill.



Fair enough.



> From the statements I think one fact that is clear, is that both Gaimou and Renpa's armies faced each other, yet neither of them clashed directly. Gaimou likes to call people out so I doubt he pussied out.
> 
> Where the Wei bias came in was when he said Renpa/Ouki avoided the fight because they know they'd lose. I ignore that. But there's no reason for Hara to add the previous statements. The most logical way to interpret that whole scene was Ouki/Renpa knew what Shin said - that he's easier to beat strategically than in combat.



I highly doubt Renpa would pussy out if encountered, but I already knew the latter.




> I don't get this?
> 
> Yeah then my point is Duke faced these guys, as did Oukotsu, Kyou - 3 Generals who love a fight that would lose to Moubu and Kanmei.



Meaning that Renpa's rate of progression and potential is much higher then Duke and Ouketsu despite them having the same amount of experience.



> lol not my intention...



My bad, sorry I'm a little irritated atm.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

All this talk just makes me think more about what kind of levels will Shin and the others reach.
I still can't quite imagine Shin leading an army of 100k and all the fodder being like ''holy fuckin shit its general Shin hes so cool''.

Shin is already 21 and that makes me wonder just how long will Hara have him develop physically and what age will he reach his prime in. I really hope Shin gets some more physical growth as well, I really wouldn't like him to be this small in comparison to the other generals.

So much stuff I want to see that's still in the future, at times like this I wish there were 300 more raws for TF to translate 5 chapters a week.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I don't recall this.



Quite simple really, but I think Ordo had his ass kicked so much that it'll cause him resentment. Apparently there were huge arguments in Yan about whether he was the right man for the job. That's probably spread to the soldiers + citizens. His reputation among other states has probably flattened too - Karin certainly didn't respect him. Maybe he even got stripped of his Great General rank.

Because of that, Ordo will despise Ousen and want revenge. He'll be angrier than the more laid back General we saw before. So he'll be planning revenge as we speak, to prepare for the chance to face Ousen again.

When Qin face Yan, Ousen vs Ordo will happen. We'll see Ordo do really well - for a start he was a stronger General than his performance would suggest, but he would also have all this prep time. He gets close, and Ousen actually gets pressured and even recognizes Ordo's ability, but ultimately Ousen wins again.

Unless Ordo dies to hype up someone else, he's going to be around when Qin invade Yan, and who else can take him on from a plot POV.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

I don't want a Mougou vs Renpa repeat though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 16, 2014)

Ordo could be a good match for Ousen when it comes to physical combat if Ordo wants revenge the best way for him to shame Ousen is to beat him in a duel. But he would need to force Ousen to do it somehow.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I don't want a Mougou vs Renpa repeat though.



Doesn't have to be though. The only similar thing is a rematch. The whole thing could be based around Ordo chasing Ousen around, and perhaps seeing through some traps due to his research.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 16, 2014)

Stylistically, who are you guys hoping is the Commander In Chief for Qin against Wei? As in who do you want to face Gohoumei?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 16, 2014)

Tou, of course. I want to see Tou in action.

Agaghsd, this Ghana vs US is driving me crazy.


----------



## conorgenov (Jun 16, 2014)

so what happened to make them slow down this much? translators lose staff?


----------



## StrawHatCrew (Jun 16, 2014)

conorgenov said:


> so what happened to make them slow down this much? translators lose staff?



My guess is that we caught up to the raws? I miss my 5-6 chapters a week.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 16, 2014)

Really looking forward to getting back to Tou and what he has up his sleeve.

Also hoping Shihaku spanks Ouhon for being an arrogant little bitch and proceeds to challenge Moubu so we can get an accurate assessment of his skill rather then just the "I'll run into valley of traps with my big stick" and "swing my big club at your big club and see which one goes boom" stuff we've got so far

Yea I'm hating lately, but think about it. Isn't Shihaku the first general we've seen close to the total package since the old generation ?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 17, 2014)

Yes, he is. Now we just have to wait and see what will happen to him once "tomorrow" comes around.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 17, 2014)

From the looks of it Ouhon didn't manage to find any weakness in Shihaku's spear, I don't see how tomorrow could change anything. Ouhon got injured as well, I really doubt they can get anything done tomorrow unless Kanjou is like really strong.

I think next we will jump to Tou and Rokuomi vs Reiou and Ranbihaku, but Reiou was with Gohoumei in the HQ so I wonder how will that even go. This arc feels so hard to predict...


----------



## Kanki (Jun 17, 2014)

I'm thinking Ranbihaku will cause Rukuomi/Kanou major problems, Tou will arrive which will turn the tables slightly, so Reiou will come to the battlefield/


----------



## Orca (Jun 17, 2014)

Isn't Ouki's leadership stat of 93 a bit low? From his portrayal in the manga, one would presume he is one of the best leaders. Either I don't fully understand the criteria for leadership or Hara has been trolling us lol.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 17, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Isn't Ouki's leadership stat of 93 a bit low? From his portrayal in the manga, one would presume he is one of the best leaders. Either I don't fully understand the criteria for leadership or Hara has been trolling us lol.



Hara is trolling us when it comes to stats.

In actuality, Ouki should prolly have the highest leadership stat. Hara might have done that to lower his overall stats, which I don't get because he would have been in the group with Riboku, Hakuki, Gakuki, and Renpa - the generals with the highest overall stats.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 17, 2014)

The leadership stat is the one I understand the least. Only way I can see how Ouki's somewhat low leadership stat makes any sense is that Ouki's leadership and morale raising abilities depended heavily on him being a legend rather than his actual abilities to motivate people. But that seems a bit far fetched.


----------



## Lezu (Jun 17, 2014)

Wow guys, there are only quality posts here nowadays. KIG wasn't lying when he said that terrible posters stopped coming here.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 17, 2014)

Lezu said:


> Wow guys, there are only quality posts here nowadays. KIG wasn't lying when he said that terrible posters stopped coming here.



We just need more active posters here.


----------



## Orca (Jun 17, 2014)

Moe-058 said:
			
		

> In actuality, Ouki should prolly have the highest leadership stat. Hara might have done that to lower his overall stats, which I don't get because he would have been in the group with Riboku, Hakuki, Gakuki, and Renpa - the generals with the highest overall stats.





			
				lazorwalrus said:
			
		

> The leadership stat is the one I understand the least. Only way I can see how Ouki's somewhat low leadership stat makes any sense is that Ouki's leadership and morale raising abilities depended heavily on him being a legend rather than his actual abilities to motivate people. But that seems a bit far fetched.



Even Shoheikun said that it would take someone like Ouki to rally up the people of Sai and he himself can't do it. Yet Shoheikun himself is two points above Ouki in leadership. It really makes you wonder, was it simply Ouki's title of 6GG that was going to rally up Sai's people and not his own leadership?

Moubu seems to rile up his army really well. I mean Moubu's army always seem to have very very high morale. Yet Moubu himself has just 90 leadership stat. Makes me think that leadership has less to do with morale.

In the Hi shin unit, I'd say Shin is the best at raising Morale. Yet Ten is 5 points higher than him. So leadership probably has to do with how well you coordinate your troops and stuff. But wouldn't that overlap with strategy?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 17, 2014)

> Even Shoheikun said that it would take someone like Ouki to rally up the people of Sai and he himself can't do it. Yet Shoheikun himself is two points above Ouki in leadership. It really makes you wonder, was it simply Ouki's title of 6GG that was going to rally up Sai's people and not his own leadership?



Shouheikun said that it would take a great general level of a commander to raise the morale of the people of Sai enough for them to be able to fight Riboku, he didn't mention Ouki as far as I remember.

Hmm, I really wonder just what exactly is counted in the leadership stat, wonder if there was some explanation somewhere. Sei has 98 in leadership and Riboku pointed out that not even Ouki could be able to do same that Sei did, but when you think about it, it was mostly the fact that Sei was the king that his speech had so much effect on the people. So in a way fame and status help with leadership. 

Riboku also has 98 in leadership, but we have never seen him really rally his troops and raise their morale.
Maybe the leadership stat has something to do with how well you can get people to follow you and support you, like Sei has people following him and even made Shouheikun help him rather than Ryo.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 17, 2014)

^Then Ouki should have a much higher score.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 17, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> ^Then Ouki should have a much higher score.



Indeed.

Ok now that I checked the very first stats, Hara says that the leadership stat means how well can one lead a squad or an army. That...is kinda vague, like Sei who has 98 in leadership isn't even a military person, but I guess he did lead the people of Sai quite well. 

Ouki at 93 still makes no sense, he should be 95 at least.


----------



## Snoozles (Jun 17, 2014)

Ouki probably has a low leadership stat (by portrayal it should be higher) because he's not supposed to be as good as Renpa. Historically, Renpa (Lian Po) and Hakuki (Bai Qi) were the gold standard of their generation. Hara probably wanted Ouki to be almost as but not quite as good and I guess leadership was the dump stat.

We've also never seen him lead an army that isn't completely loyal to him. (I guess Moubu, but he didn't really handle Moubu that well.) Riboku brought together the coalition and Renpa led the Wei army flawlessly despite being a Zhao general. Both are more impressive than anything Ouki has done. The rest that have higher scores don't really have a case over Ouki.

That being said leadership is probably the least consistent stat (or at least the one I disagree with the most). For instance, Sanyou Campaign Mouten should have had a clearly higher leadership score given that he was capable of coordinating a 3 1,000 man units, 2 of which were rivals that would almost never get along. Ouhon struggled to lead his newly formed 1,000 man unit. Yet somehow Ouhan had a higher leadership score.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 17, 2014)

I also can't entirely wrap my head around leadership. I think it probably has a lot to do with taking charge, pushing forward and remaining cool-headed and rational (e.g. Shouheikun compared to everyone else when the news of the approaching coalition army came in) under pressure. Sei fits all those to a T. He fits them despite being so young and relatively inexperienced, which speaks even more to the magnitude of his talent in the area. Being able to rally and raise morale does have an impact but the part that stems from titles, fame and "presence", for the lack of a better word, probably doesn't, or at least not wholly. What I'm thinking of when saying that is how legendary GGs like Ouki have such an imposing and inspiring aura surrounding them that barely even need to do anything to rally an army. Their mere presence does most of the job. Contrast that with Sei who had to rouse Sai with just the right words and tone despite having a lot for free thanks to being the king - being the king was merely the start - and succeeded brilliantly. It may be splitting hairs to some but I think there's a certain difference.

But still, it's surely the most difficult stat to quantify.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 17, 2014)

Probably an irrelevant point, but Renpa's 'aura' seemed to effect the battlefield much more than Ouki's. And Wei weren't even 'his' army either.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 17, 2014)

Snoozles said:


> We've also never seen him lead an army that isn't completely loyal to him. (I guess Moubu, but he didn't really handle Moubu that well.) Riboku brought together the coalition and Renpa led the Wei army flawlessly despite being a Zhao general. Both are more impressive than anything Ouki has done. The rest that have higher scores don't really have a case over Ouki.



Ouki convinced and lead 100,000 farmers to believe they could defeat an elite army of 100,000 Zhao soldiers led by 6 generals + Houken...

I mean didn't do anything impressive? ....

Also, it wasn't like Renpa led a Wei army on some conquest mission. He led an army that was going to fight anyway to defend their state.

I'll give you credit for Riboku though.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 17, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Probably an irrelevant point, but Renpa's 'aura' seemed to effect the battlefield much more than Ouki's. And Wei weren't even 'his' army either.



The thing about that was that the Wei were in a bad situation. They were surrounded on all sides and Ousen had Kyouen in his trap - to see Renpa come out of nowhere to save them gave them hope and ferocity. I think if Ouki stood where Renpa stood that he'd have the same effect. You also have to consider that it was already stated that Renpa/4P couldn't rile the Wei soldiers as well as they'd like; hence why they had a Chief Commander that was from Wei (correct me if I remembered this wrong). Also what J4F said.



JiraiyaForever said:


> Ouki convinced and lead 100,000 farmers to believe they could defeat an elite army of 100,000 Zhao soldiers led by 6 generals + Houken...
> 
> I mean didn't do anything impressive? ....


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

To be fair, I doubt Moubu would have listened to Renpa either. Though unlike Ouki, I'm not sure if Renpa would have stood and taken the abuse that Moubu gave. 



Lezu said:


> Wow guys, there are only quality posts here nowadays. KIG wasn't lying when he said that terrible posters stopped coming here.



Spread the word 

I liked that debate.



Moe-058 said:


> The thing about that was that the Wei were in a bad situation. They were surrounded on all sides and Ousen had Kyouen in his trap - to see Renpa come out of nowhere to save them gave them hope and ferocity. I think if Ouki stood where Renpa stood that he'd have the same effect. You also have to consider that it was already stated that Renpa/4P couldn't rile the Wei soldiers as well as they'd like; hence why they had a Chief Commander that was from Wei (correct me if I remembered this wrong). Also what J4F said.


True. I can see Renpa being a little better at motivating his troops because he's more hands on with his men - i.e hugs them, gives encouragement etc. Ouki is a little stand-off ish, if that makes sense.

I wonder who was regarded as number 1 out of Renpa/Ouki throughout China


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 18, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> True. I can see Renpa being a little better at motivating his troops because he's more hands on with his men - i.e hugs them, gives encouragement etc. Ouki is a little stand-off ish, if that makes sense.




Ouki stand-offish with his men?
Nothing can be further from the truth.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

> I wonder who was regarded as number 1 out of Renpa/Ouki throughout China



Historically Renpa was number 1 out of those 2, but it would seem that Hara is portraying them as nearly equals.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Spread the word
> 
> I liked that debate.



Same here. Next time let's debate something we can both back up with actual feats. 

Now we just need more people here.



Kanki Is God said:


> True. I can see Renpa being a little better at motivating his troops because he's more hands on with his men - i.e hugs them, gives encouragement etc. Ouki is a little stand-off ish, if that makes sense.



I can see this as well considering Renpa is a bit more silly and involved with his right-hand men, but at the same time, Ouki's men are always serious and brutish. I'd think his own right-hand men would punch Ouki if he hugged them - except for Tou of course. They are interact different is all.



Kanki Is God said:


> I wonder who was regarded as number 1 out of Renpa/Ouki throughout China



In history or the Kingdomverse? In the Kingdomverse, I'd prolly say they are equal.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'd think his own right-hand men would punch Ouki if he hugged them - except for Tou of course. They are interact different is all.



No one would punch Ouki in his own army. If the general wants to hug you, you take the bro hug like a man. Rokuomi might be a bit embarrassed, but I think rest of them wouldn't mind a little hug, Tou would even enjoy it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> No one would punch Ouki in his own army. If the general wants to hug you, you take the bro hug like a man. Rokuomi might be a bit embarrassed, but I think rest of them wouldn't mind a little hug, Tou would even enjoy it.



I was just kidding. It was meant to highlight how superior interact differently with their soldiers for the same effect.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

I meant in the Kingdom-verse.

Ouki hugging his men would probably freak them out lol. Kanou wouldn't stand for it.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 18, 2014)

Imagine if Ouki was leading this war right now


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Imagine if Ouki was leading this war right now



Riboku kinda made sure Ouki never could interfere.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Damn Riboku, imagine if Ouki was there to fight Renpa rather than Mougou? Or there to save Kankoku pass? 
Riboku removed the biggest threat to him from Qin and from Yan and then united 5 states to attack Qin.

I wish in the future Riboku will do something completely without Houken, it is kind of cheap for him to utilize such a monster. I really want to see just what hes capable of when he doesn't rely on Houken's overwhelming strength.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 18, 2014)

Damn, Riboku truly is/was the most dangerous man in China. I guess I always focused on present China and didn't see just how much of an impact that had on the future for Qin.

Ouki


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

There are so many what if questions....

What if Moubu hadn't charged forward?
What if Ouki, Duke or Moubu was against Renpa?
What if Ouki was in the coalition war?
What if Gokei faced Choutou/Mougou/Moubu?

Urghhhh just imagine if the current 3 Heavens were Riboku, Renpa and Houken


----------



## Lezu (Jun 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Damn Riboku, imagine if Ouki was there to fight Renpa rather than Mougou? Or there to save Kankoku pass?
> Riboku removed the biggest threat to him from Qin and from Yan and then united 5 states to attack Qin.
> 
> I wish in the future Riboku will do something completely without Houken, *it is kind of cheap for him to utilize such a monster*. I really want to see just what hes capable of when he doesn't rely on Houken's overwhelming strength.



Everyone in his place would use Houken as well. Don't tell me you'd rather choose not to use Houken ? That would be a completely dumb idea then, since you can use him in many ways and still benefit even if he manages to loose.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Lezu said:


> Everyone in his place would use Houken as well. Don't tell me you'd rather choose not to use Houken ? That would be a completely dumb idea then, since you can use him in many ways and still benefit even if he manages to loose.



Yeah, I understand that, but I still want to see what Riboku is capable on his own without using Houken. I wanna see what his 100 intelligence stat points can come up with on a battlefield against some other strategic genius without Houken being around.

And I wouldn't mind seeing a battle where Riboku is forced to draw his sword and fight someone in a duel or lead a charge.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

Yeah if you've got Houken, you use him.
Though I do think it would be great if Riboku showed some amazing feats of his own. I suppose he was able to to perform a difficult tactical maneuver on the ground, whereas Gohoumei had to do whilst watching from a higher position.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

> What if Moubu hadn't charged forward?



Ouki would have lived.



> What if Ouki, Duke or Moubu was against Renpa?



Ouki would have a 40% chance of winning, IMO. This is simply because Ouki's vassals don't compare to Renpa. The only vassal that has the ability to stand against Renpa's 4P's is Tou.

Moubu would have lost splendidly strategically, but I wouldn't put it past him to kill Rinko or the bald headed dude if they were stupid enough to approach him.

Duke would have put up an amazing fight and maybe even take out a pillar or two, but again, Renpa's 4P makes it seem like a 5 vs 1 General fight.



> What if Ouki was in the coalition war?



Honestly? I don't really see how much better it would have gone down for them if Ouki was involved.
The most I can imagine would be less casualties.

Ousen vs Ordo worked out splendidly for Qin. I don't see how Ouki could have done better.

Kankou Pass vs Gohoumei and Seikou - All Ouki could have done was reduce the casualties and prevent less of them from breaching the walls. It would have been more beneficial for Qin IF that meant he'd replace Mougou or Choutou, but the fact remains that Kanki would remain to be a far more critical component in the Kankou Pass defend then Ouki as it was thanks to him that Seikyou was taken care of. This would actually mean a loss for Qin if Ouki replaced Kanki.

Chu vs Moubou and Tou - Here is where I would imagine Ouki would have shined. Tou would have taken down Rinbukun and Ouki would have cornered Kanmei and taken him down (Yes I do believe this), but this time, I'd imagine he'd have done it with a lot less casualties on his end and more so on Chu's side. Remember how Chu lost 75k men, I could imagine it would have been a lot higher if Ouki was involved.

Ouki vs Zhao - same as the above. More casualties on Zhao's side, less on his. Maybe a few commanders and general while he is at it. I also could see Ouki noticing what Riboku was up to, but I don't imagine he could have held off Riboku any better then Duke.



> What if Gokei faced Choutou/Mougou/Moubu?



He would prolly defeat Choutou and Mougou because it doesn't seem like they'd approach him for a duel. Moubu would crash through his forces and Gokei might duel him, just as he had stupidly done against Duke, and die a horrible death.



> Urghhhh just imagine if the current 3 Heavens were Riboku, Renpa and Houken



That would make Zhao the most or 2nd most powerful state, IMO


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> That would make Zhao the most or 2nd most powerful state, IMO



You think Zhao with Renpa + 4HK, Riboku + Keisha and Houken would be weaker than current Qin? Keep in mind Qin lost Duke, Ouki, Choutou and Mougou. 
Moubu, Ousen, Kanki and Tou are all that Qin has left and I don't think they would win a war against those 3 and their vassals.

Or did you mean Chu or Wei?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> You think Zhao with Renpa + 4HK, Riboku + Keisha and Houken would be weaker than current Qin? Keep in mind Qin lost Duke, Ouki, Choutou and Mougou.
> Moubu, Ousen, Kanki and Tou are all that Qin has left for them.
> 
> Or did you mean Chu or Wei?



You mean Renpa and his 2HK.

I'm not completely sure because of we really aren't sure what Tou, Ousen, or Kanki are capable of. We've seen just glimpses and teases with them.

On Zhao's side (this is a hypothetical situation where Renpa is still in Zhao, but he has lost 2 of his HK. It would be unfair to say 4HK and then leave other dead Generals like Mougou and Duke):

Riboku
Houken
Renpa

Qin:

Moubu
Ousen
Kanki
Tou

Qin vs current Wei, Yan, Han, Qi, or Chu.

I can confidently say that Qin would defeat the states listed above.

So it is just between Zhao vs Qin.

Moubu vs Houken - 40/50, with Houken winning this.
Renpa + 2K - Ousen + Kanki - I'd give this to Qin - 40/60
Tou vs Riboku - Riboku, but I am unsure of the odds because we honestly don't know jackshit about Tou and what he is capable off. 

Zhao wins this.

This is just a General vs General fight with equal numbers, no prep before hand. And when I say no prep, I don't mean I'm not giving the strategists her enough time to set up their plans, but rather not at the scale that Riboku pulled. I don't know how long that must have taken Riboku to plan.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Well if Renpa never left Zhao he would of never fought Qin with Wei and thus Rinko and Genbou should be around.

I think Renpa could destroy Kanki tbh, hes too smart to fall for his traps and Kanki has no hope of fighting against him 1 on 1. Ousen could be held by 2HK while Renpa deals with Kanki. I'd say its more like 60/40 to Renpa. 

I think Zhao would win this one even with the 2HK being gone. Houken and Riboku would at least win and then they would proceed to help Renpa if Renpa needed help.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

The reason why I paired Ousen and Kanki against Renpa is that Ousen's strategical abilities and Kanki's tactical abilities would hold Renpa off.

Tou's instinctual and tactical abilities could interfere with Riboku prepped strategical plans.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well if Renpa never left Zhao he would of never fought Qin with Wei and thus Rinko and Genbou should be around.
> 
> I think Renpa could destroy Kanki tbh, hes too smart to fall for his traps and Kanki has no hope of fighting against him 1 on 1. Ousen could be held by 2HK while Renpa deals with Kanki. I'd say its more like 60/40 to Renpa.
> 
> I think Zhao would win this one even with the 2HK being gone. Houken and Riboku would at least win and then they would proceed to help Renpa if Renpa needed help.



And if Renpa was still in Zhao, Kanki, Ousen, Tou, Mougou, Choutou, and Moubu would prolly have died during the Coalition War and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Not really. Kanki could hold off Renpa while Ousen quickly deals with the 2HK. The dangerous members of the 4Hk were without a doubt Genpou and Rinko, with both of them dead, we have a brute who we have no evidence is capable of anything but charging, and then we have Kyouen. I honestly believe that Ousen could easily take care of the leader and then take out Kyouen with some effort, which would result in a Kanki and Ousen vs Renpa match. If there was an active cooperation between the two, I'd see them beating Renpa.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

Riboku
Houken
Renpa
Kyouen
Kaishibou
Keisha

vs

Kanki
Ousen
Moubu
Tou

Just comparing those two, I'd say Zhao win. But then there is the under current of Shin, Ouhon and Mouten who will make up for it. Though I think Chu is currently the number 1 state still. Kouen, Renpa, Karin...I'm going to assume they'll have another 2 or 3 top Generals too. Remember. If Qin are currently stronger than Chu, they should put a good bit of distance between them as Shin, Mouten, Ouhon and Kyoukai all become elite Generals in their own right.  Qin will probably lose some key commanders before then, but as things are they stand to gain 4 legends.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> And if Renpa was still in Zhao, Kanki, Ousen, Tou, Mougou, Choutou, and Moubu would prolly have died during the Coalition War and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> 
> Not really. Kanki could hold off Renpa while Ousen quickly deals with the 2HK. The dangerous members of the 4Hk were without a doubt Genpou and Rinko, with both of them dead, we have a brute who we have no evidence is capable of anything but charging, and then we have Kyouen. I honestly believe that Ousen could easily take care of the leader and then take out Kyouen with some effort, which would result in a Kanki and Ousen vs Renpa match. If there was an active cooperation between the two, I'd see them beating Renpa.



If we are to assume that Riboku, Keisha and Houken would win against Tou and Moubu, I think Zhao battle plan would have Renpa holding his ground and being defensive. Renpa managed to hold his own against Hakuki and Ouki for 2 years in the past, he should be able to defend against Kanki and Ousen. If Renpa can hold out till Houken or Riboku are victorious and can come help him out then Zhao would win. 

Also I don't really see how can Kanki really hold off someone like Renpa, Renpa has him beat in just about everything. Kanki could do nothing but run and try some underhanded tactics which Renpa would more than likely see through sooner rather than later. And Ousen definitely wouldn't want to directly attack Renpa and nor would Kanki. I have a feeling that Ousen would run away after Moubu or Tou are defeated

I feel like Zhao has time on their side, the longer the fight drags the better their chances are to knock off one of the important pieces for Qin. Moubu and Houken would just duel straight away which would in most cases result in Houken winning and this would leave Houken probably injured, but still capable of beating people like Rokuomi or Kanou with ease.

I don't see how Qin could really win unless Tou manages to beat Riboku.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Riboku
> Houken
> Renpa
> Kyouen
> ...



I totally forgot about Keisha. Yea, this would result in a Zhao win.

But this is just a General vs General fight for the time being. 
The thing is we have no idea what Kouen is capable of and we don't know if Renpa would fight for Chu.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

Renpa does strike me as just being too complete for Kanki. There's no openings there. It's weird but Kanki was able to kill Gaimou, cause Kaishibou problems and take Wei's HQ, yet Renpa seemed to disregard him almost. 

But Kanki can definitely play cat and mouse with him. Kanki has no chance of winning, but I can see Renpa struggling to pin him down. Half the time you don't even know where Kanki is. I think Renpa would probably switch with another General.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> If we are to assume that Riboku, Keisha and Houken would win against Tou and Moubu, I think Zhao battle plan would have Renpa holding his ground and being defensive. Renpa managed to hold his own against Hakuki and Ouki for 2 years in the past, he should be able to defend against Kanki and Ousen. If Renpa can hold out till Houken or Riboku are victorious and can come help him out then Zhao would win.
> 
> Also I don't really see how can Kanki really hold off someone like Renpa, Renpa has him beat in just about everything. Kanki could do nothing but run and try some underhanded tactics which Renpa would more than likely see through sooner rather than later. And Ousen definitely wouldn't want to directly attack Renpa and nor would Kanki. I have a feeling that Ousen would run away after Moubu or Tou are defeated



You mean Renpa right? I didn't factor in Keisha because I forgot about him.

No, I was working under the assumption these were three separated fights and Ousen could not flee or else we really can't have a decent Ousen discussion. 

You make a good point about Kanki. I'm still saying Zhao wins, but I'm not sure until I get to see what Kanki is REALLY capable off. Who knows? He might be a really capable fighter.

So you think Ousen and Kanki could not defeat Renpa?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

> So you think Ousen and Kanki could not defeat Renpa?



If Renpa has 2HK with him and defends, I think it would result in a endless stalemate. Ousen and Kanki lack the strength to really get Renpa and Renpa couldn't risk attacking Ousen and Kanki who are both quite hard to get your hands on. So I think it would be a stalemate till either side gives up or receives help. 

And I meant Keisha, I believe Riboku, Keisha and Houken would fight as 1 single army that's separated in 2 groups. Houken cannot lead on his own so he needs either Keisha or Riboku with him. 
So it would be like Chu vs Qin again, but this time with Zhao generals Houken, Riboku and Keisha vs Moubu and Tou.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I totally forgot about Keisha. Yea, this would result in a Zhao win.
> 
> But this is just a General vs General fight for the time being.
> The thing is we have no idea what Kouen is capable of and we don't know if Renpa would fight for Chu.


True, though I think it's almost a given that he'll be on the elite level. The only thing we can be sure is that he is on the level of a Karin - bare minimum. So even still, Renpa + Karinx2 is scary.

Re-reading past chapters, Renpa is definitely there to use as a General, though he wouldn't lead a huge army. So we can rule out Renpa being a Commander in Chief of Chu in a war of hundreds of thousands. I think they have too much pride to instill a 'fake' leader a la Haku Kisai as well.

I wonder if Shin will be Commander in Chief during the last war, and whether or not Kouyoku will be. I wouldn't really like it if Shin defeated both Kouyoku and Kouen in 1 arc, for example.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

Kanki + Ousen vs Renpa + Kyouen + Kaishibou could go either way, tbh. 

If it was on open land, Renpa could win. But if it's a unique scenery like mountains, Ousen + Kanki will have too many tricks up their sleeve. The bigger the war is, the more if favors Qin. The smaller, the war, the more it suits Renpa.

I say that because the trick will be to separate Kaishibou and Kyouen. We already know that Kanki can trick Kaishibou. Then it becomes 2 on 2.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 18, 2014)

Loved the last chapter. Full of emotion with the spear dragon of wei.
But i*c*st... wow. Could not guess that.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

It is time for Generals like Ousen and Kanki to come out into the limelight and the thing is Hara could easily do that because he hasn't shown us what Kanki and Ousen are truly capable off. Ousen was sidelined in the Wei Arc and then defeated ordo so fast that we didn't even get to learn what he is capable of. They also haven't explained why Ousen decided to go to kankou Pass.

Kanki, on the other hand, showed us what he is capable of in his terrain, but now I am interested to see how he would fare on open lands or how capable of a swordsman he is.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 18, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> Loved the last chapter. Full of emotion with the spear dragon of wei.
> But i*c*st... wow. Could not guess that.



They were most likely stepsiblings, so it wasn't i*c*st.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> They were most likely stepsiblings, so it wasn't i*c*st.



I see well it looked weird tho. But hot 
Nice to see the poll's are still going.

So much time has passed since i didnt post here. Life sucks alot of energy.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 18, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Kanki + Ousen vs Renpa + Kyouen + Kaishibou could go either way, tbh.
> 
> If it was on open land, Renpa could win. But if it's a unique scenery like mountains, Ousen + Kanki will have too many tricks up their sleeve. The bigger the war is, the more if favors Qin. The smaller, the war, the more it suits Renpa.
> 
> I say that because the trick will be to separate Kaishibou and Kyouen. We already know that Kanki can trick Kaishibou. Then it becomes 2 on 2.



I really doubt Renpa would let Kaishibou face off against Kanki again. 

Ousen has his fortresses and Kanki is an expert in causing trouble in forests. And Renpa is also an expert in defence so I really don't see either side really wanting to attack each other. Or the war would go to Renpa attacking Ousen's fortress while fending off Kanki's sneak attacks in his back. 

Kyouen and Kaishibou together could probably deal with Kanki and Renpa could deal with Ousen, but I really doubt they would directly fight each other.

Actually Renpa might even win this one as long as he keeps his men together and doesn't let Kanki utilize his small scale tactics. If he can overcome Ousen's fortress then he should be good to go.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 18, 2014)

3 of Qin's Generals still have a lot to show.

Tou needs to go up against an elite. He did go up against Karin tactically but that was more straight up attack vs defence. A fair war with even (ish) numbers against an elite would be great.

Kanki...I agree with Mou that it will be cool to see him where he has nowhere to hide. He's 93 in combat, so the same as Rinbukun, Rinko, Shoumou. So he should be quite good in combat. But seeing him under pressure would be great. 

Ousen - we've seen a good amount from him yet really, know nothing. I just want to see him do more.

Moubu - We've pretty much seen everything about him.

Tou is the one who I want to see challenged the most though. I want to see just how close he is to the Ouki and Renpa's.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 18, 2014)

Just read again how Ouki and Tou just decimated Chousou's base army lol.  

Man that would've been an easy war without Riboku's reinforcements... 





Anyway, very much looking forward to what Tou has to offer this war.  Also wouldn't mind seeing Kanki do some combat and Ousen do anything.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 19, 2014)

After reading some other series lately I really start to appreciate that we have already seen the top tier in Kingdom. All these powerlevels that constantly keep going up to a point where they get ridiculous wouldn't be good for Kingdom.

The lack of fantasy elements helps also, I really hope that the demonic Byakuya sword wont actually have some magic powers. Kyoukai's dance and Mangoku's hate aura are the only fantasy things that we have seen thus far. Kyoukai's dance is fine with me, but Mangoku's aura thingy was kinda meh, I didn't really even know if it was supposed to be symbolic or something tangible.

So a question, what would you guys think if Hara started creating new fantasy elements in Kingdom? I wouldn't like it at all.


----------



## Patrick (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm pretty positive it was meant to be symbolical. Same with Kyoukai's dance, it's been explained to not be some kind of superpower, but a state of mind where your body takes over and deletes unnecessary movements.

Both pretty weird things that aren't likely to happen in the real world, but still somewhat realistic.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 19, 2014)

patrick4life said:


> I'm pretty positive it was meant to be symbolical.



Yeah, that's what I thought too so I was like wtf when Shin seemed to actually react to the ghosts.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 19, 2014)

Fantasy elements would be stupid. If Kouen could make all of China shake with a swing of his sword, I would not be impressed.

But yeah....even this week where OP had a chapter which many thought was amazing, I still feel as if it was behind what was a routine Kingdom chapter. And I consider OP to be my second favorite series as things stand (unless HxH picks up).

Kingdom has had a negative impact on other series, for me. A 7/10 Kingdom chapter is probably equivalent to an 8.5/10 chapter from OP/HxH.

Obviously Bleach/Naruto never reach that level anyway, these days. Shame. P1 Naruto was actually on par with Kingdom, for me.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 20, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Fantasy elements would be stupid. If Kouen could make all of China shake with a swing of his sword, I would not be impressed.
> 
> But yeah....even this week where OP had a chapter which many thought was amazing, I still feel as if it was behind what was a routine Kingdom chapter. And I consider OP to be my second favorite series as things stand (unless HxH picks up).
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more KIG.

and a 7/10 kingdom chapter is rare in and of itself.

Do you guys think we savored and enjoyed 5-6 chapters a week to the fullest?  I think we did.  Unfortunately so many have caught up after the releases slowed down otherwise this section would've exploded.

Bijuu get banned by the way or something?


----------



## convict (Jun 20, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Fantasy elements would be stupid. If Kouen could make all of China shake with a swing of his sword, I would not be impressed.
> 
> *But yeah....even this week where OP had a chapter which many thought was amazing*, I still feel as if it was behind what was a routine Kingdom chapter. And I consider OP to be my second favorite series as things stand (unless HxH picks up).
> 
> ...



This doesn't affect your main point but widely regarded as amazing? This week's chapter elicited the most negative response from the fandom overall since that drowsy chapter revolving around the kid Mocha on Punk Hazard.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 20, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Do you guys think we savored and enjoyed 5-6 chapters a week to the fullest?  I think we did.  Unfortunately so many have caught up after the releases slowed down otherwise this section would've exploded.



Hmm, I think we did too. There was so much to talk about that we went through entire parts in like less than a month, but now of course things have slowed down. Guess it was too optimistic to think that some of the raw readers would start posting once we were caught up.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 20, 2014)

convict said:


> This doesn't affect your main point but widely regarded as amazing? This week's chapter elicited the most negative response from the fandom overall since that drowsy chapter revolving around the kid Mocha on Punk Hazard.



People were going crazy at Fujitora vs Sabo, weren't they?


----------



## convict (Jun 20, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> People were going crazy at Fujitora vs Sabo, weren't they?



There were a couple really strong and outspoken Sabo fans who couldn't contain their excitement which resulted in multiple threads popping up left and right but all in all the boredom pervading the middle chunk of the chapter as well as the lack of progression really put people off.

If we look at the weekly ratings One Piece is extremely top heavy but this time it was different:


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 20, 2014)

Kingdom going the supernatural route would be terrible.
Even Kyoukai was really pushing it for me in the fight against the Shiyu.

If Hara wanted to include a supernatural element, he should have done it from the beginning.

And OP was still good for me. People just lack patience and are obsessed with their favorites getting fighting feats.
Some of the action junkies want Oda to become the next Bay and just fill every page with fucking explosions.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 20, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Kingdom going the supernatural route would be terrible.
> Even Kyoukai was really pushing it for me in the fight against the Shiyu.
> 
> If Hara wanted to include a supernatural element, he should have done it from the beginning.
> ...



It's still good. Though the lack of Zoro (what has he done since the TS?), the clusterfuck of events, the overuse of gags and severe lack of tension really hurts it.  Much better than Naruto/Bleach though.


convict said:


> There were a couple really strong and outspoken Sabo fans who couldn't contain their excitement which resulted in multiple threads popping up left and right but all in all the boredom pervading the middle chunk of the chapter as well as the lack of progression really put people off.
> 
> If we look at the weekly ratings One Piece is extremely top heavy but this time it was different:



I see. Guess I was wrong....


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

I really don't like the concept of weight. I just find it superfluous and distracting. Let people fights with their own abilities and let us judge them accordingly. Half the time, the discussions here are more about the weight the individuals might have over eachother...

Now for the Bushins - I don't know if there is literally a "God of War" residing within Houken, but again, I hope it is merely symbolic.

I don't mind Kyouken's priestess dance, I ust don't like how much of a difference it makes. I find the bonus too be far too unrealistic and "fantasy-like". I don't mind a bit of both, but Kyoukai is like the Chinese Flash.

Mangoku - yea, I thought it was symbolic as well until I saw it affecting Shin... I thought to myself, why did Hara make it physically manifest?

What would you guys say to every state having their own Bushins that are somehow able to direct and manipulate events to cause further war to appease the "war Gods" within? And that Houken is merely an anomaly that fights to appease himself.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 20, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> What would you guys say to every state having their own Bushins that are somehow able to direct and manipulate events to cause further war to appease the "war Gods" within? And that Houken is merely an anomaly that fights to appease himself.



I wouldn't like it at all. It would be distracting from the mainplot and the less fantasy stuff that's in Kingdom the better imo.

Kingdom is a historical manga that follows the events that are recorded in the Shi Ji so it really would make no sense to add something like that and thanks to that its very unlikely that anything like that will happen in Kingdom.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 20, 2014)

Yeah this is the worst rated One Piece chapter in two years for One Piece. .


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I wouldn't like it at all. It would be distracting from the mainplot and the less fantasy stuff that's in Kingdom the better imo.
> 
> Kingdom is a historical manga that follows the events that are recorded in the Shi Ji so it really would make no sense to add something like that and thanks to that its very unlikely that anything like that will happen in Kingdom.



I asked because I find it funny that usually here is where a manga goes wrong, IMO.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 20, 2014)

Houken's demon god or whatever it is, isn't really tangible so it doesn't bother me. Mangoku's manifestation of hatred wasn't anything major - it's a fancy way of saying the hatred those guys had was insane. When people go batshit crazy with anger/hatred they do give off an aura, at times. I actually liked that.

The only thing that really bothers me is when main characters suddenly get huge power ups because they're angry. Shin has that - we see that with his stat. It's something like 91 with that icon next to it, which basically means he's a 91 but can increase it to whatever number the author wants at any given time if Shin is angry. That's BS because you know if Shin is close to dying, he'll be deadly serious and explode with 'weight'. So technically his stat should be a 95 or whatever number his 'alpha mode' is.

Weight is tricky. At times it can become a fancy word for 'nakama power', which I hate more than anything. It's great some times - like with Choutou. But when for eg someone can suddenly go from 2/10 to 8/10 due to weight, I call BS again.

Weight should be able to make a small difference at times, like just tip the scale to one side, but none of this nonsense of losing convincingly to suddenly winning.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 20, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> The only thing that really bothers me is when main characters suddenly get huge power ups because they're angry. Shin has that - we see that with his stat. It's something like 91 with that icon next to it, which basically means he's a 91 but can increase it to whatever number the author wants at any given time if Shin is angry. That's BS because you know if Shin is close to dying, he'll be deadly serious and explode with 'weight'. So technically his stat should be a 95 or whatever number his 'alpha mode' is.
> 
> Weight is tricky. At times it can become a fancy word for 'nakama power', which I hate more than anything. It's great some times - like with Choutou. But when for eg someone can suddenly go from 2/10 to 8/10 due to weight, I call BS again.
> 
> Weight should be able to make a small difference at times, like just tip the scale to one side, but none of this nonsense of losing convincingly to suddenly winning.



Yeah, its a bit of a problem when it makes a very real difference. This is also one of my worries that Shin will never actually reach the levels of Ouki, but he will always rely on his boost when against stronger opponents. Like if hes like 94+boost when hes all grown up, I might not like it.

I really wish Shin will just grow up to become really strong so there wont be any weight boosts required. But since weight is going to play a role for sure, I can only hope that it wont be like completely game changing.

The Ouki vs Houken fight kinda had that weight thing playing a big role, but it really didn't bother me in that fight. If Hara can do it like that in the future as well I'll be fine with it, as long as its not overused and playing a role in every fight that Shin has.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 20, 2014)

Yeah.
I too would prefer Shin naturally growing, than having nonsensical weight power ups, like the time he dueled houken.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 20, 2014)

Ouki vs. Houken, Moubu vs. Kanmei, and Kyoukai vs Yuuren are excellent examples of weight and how someone can overcome a small difference in martial might. You can pretty much correlate it to a son using more strength then normal to lift a heavy object off his mom to save her rather then when he's just lifting the same heavy object just to lift it. Weight is another way of removing self protection limiters to achieve something for a motivated purpose.

An example of weight coming up short is Mougou vs Renpa and Gokei vs Duke. Mougou had 40 years of anger, embarrassment, and shame built up against Renpa but the gap was simply too big. Weight has its limits, which is definitely a positive.

After watching 10, 100, or even 1000 close friends die with you and for you... You begin to have a higher purpose and in war - it manifests as heavier then normal blows

I see nothing wrong with the concept with weight, nor do I think it's a fantasy element.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

I'd rather have them win battles using the skills they've honed through countless years of training and experience.

Not something like weight. Houken should have lost because Ouki was the better fighter, not because Ouki had the feelz.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 20, 2014)

Kyoukai vs Yuuren was pushing it. Yuuren was winning with ease, and then Kyoukai suddenly turned the tables completely. There was a bit more to it, but it's about as extreme as I'd accept before complaining. 

I had no issue with Ouki/Houken, Kanmei/Moubu, Mougou or Choutou though. 

If Shin can somehow beat Gaimou this arc thanks to weight, I'll call BS.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 20, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'd rather have them win battles using the skills they've honed through countless years of training and experience.
> 
> Not something like weight. Houken should have lost because Ouki was the better fighter, not because Ouki had the feelz.



Ouki was the better fighter.  Ouki was the better fight because he lived a life that gave him weight in addition to the other elements of martial might.

I agree with you and others KIG. I don't think Shin's ability to "power-up" is due to his weight though. I think weight is giving him the ability to exchanges blows yes.  Otherwise, I think it's one of the only bs things in kingdom.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Ouki was the better fighter.  Ouki was the better fight because he walked a path that gave him weight in addition to the other elements of martial might.



No, Houken was the better fighter. The biggest reason Ouki won was because of the revenge weight he held over Houken. Had Houken not killed Kyou, Houken would have killed Ouki without any help.

We've seen how significant revenge weight is with Kyoukai vs Yuuren and Shin vs Houken. There is no one who trains harder than Houken, no one more focused on their martial skills. Then you also factor in his strength:



Even though it was post-Ouki, it puts his strength into perspective when you compare it to Moubu.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> After watching 10, 100, or even 1000 close friends die with you and for you... You begin to have a higher purpose and in war - it manifests as heavier then normal blows
> 
> I see nothing wrong with the concept with weight, nor do I think it's a fantasy element.



It is a fantasy element when you have someone like Mougou knocking Renpa around like a paddle ball. His base strength was roughly around Renpa's, yet weight allowed him to constantly knock Renpa back.

I find that to be too fantasy-like and makes something like weight too unquantifiable. 

It annoys me whenever we are trying to have a discussion on combat abilities, that we have to spend more time discussing how weight could factor into it before getting down to what really matters.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 20, 2014)

Houken is definitely the top of martial might, I've never swayed on that.  He's not leaps and bounds above Ouki, Moubu, Kanmei, or Renpa though.  

Ouki took his 98 against Houken's 100 and defeated him in an extremely close death match because his wounds were numb and his muscle protection limiters removed because Houken killed his bitch.

I just don't see how there's a problem with that.  If anything it's refreshing.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Houken is definitely the top of martial might, I've never swayed on that.  He's not leaps and bounds above Ouki, Moubu, Kanmei, or Renpa though.



I never implied that. I just don't believe that Ouki could ever defeat Houken with just his martial skills.



> Ouki took his 98 against Houken's 100 and defeated him in an extremely close death match because his wounds were numb and his muscle protection limiters removed because Houken killed his bitch.



Houken was also injured, and you shouldn't be making excuses like this. Also, am I the only one who believes that weight has nothing to do with motivation and pushing your body above and beyond?



> I just don't see how there's a problem with that.  If anything it's refreshing.



How would that be refreshing? Factors like these are in almost every manga we read. Some extrinsic, intangible factor that manipulates outcomes in the way of the unrealistic e.g POF, dreams, motivation, power of friends, luck, etc.

How about we have individuals win because they worked for it, not because they feel'd their way to a win...


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 20, 2014)

Well clearly you think the gap in martial might between Houken and Ouki is much bigger then I do. Also weight has been attempted to be decribed several times in the story and still there's room for interpretation, which is cool with me.

Kyoukai's fight with Yuuren showed Kyoukai's arteries bulging, muscles tearing, etc to push her martial might to its max potential.  Basically her revenge weight allowed her a boost in strength and numbness to pain at the cost of self inflicted body harm. I mean if you lift weights it's like that last rep that could screw your shit up or give you that max strength potential for a fleeting moment.

I think there's also a mental component to weight as well, but it's pretty fucked up to compare it to nakama gayness where a rubber dildo becomes the size of the Eiffel Tower because someone made his friend teary-eyed 

Good discussion though Moe


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 20, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Well clearly you think the gap in martial might between Houken and Ouki is much bigger then I do.



I'd give it to Houken 7/10 fights. When people talk about the apex of martial might, I don't think of Moubu - I think of Houken.



> Also weight has been attempted to be decribed several times in the story and still there's room for interpretation, which is cool with me.



No, I feel like the only one who believes that factors like experience or revenge add LITERAL weight to one's blow. I don't believe that weight motivates someone to move past their limits.



> I think there's also a mental component to weight as well, but it's pretty fucked up to compare it to nakama gayness where a rubber dildo becomes the size of the Eiffel Tower because someone made his friend teary-eyed



No, I wasn't comparing it, I ain't that crazy. I was just trying to highlight that there is nothing refreshing about 'weight" because we see it in almost every manga, but in differing degrees and forms.



> Good discussion though Moe


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> It is a fantasy element when you have someone like Mougou knocking Renpa around like a paddle ball. His base strength was roughly around Renpa's, yet weight allowed him to constantly knock Renpa back.
> 
> I find that to be too fantasy-like and makes something like weight too unquantifiable.
> 
> It annoys me whenever we are trying to have a discussion on combat abilities, that we have to spend more time discussing how weight could factor into it before getting down to what really matters.



To be fair that's an exaggeration:

First exchange came down to Renpa's speed being >> Mougou:

*Spoiler*: __ 








Second exchange was Renpa charging into a still-Mougou:

*Spoiler*: __ 








These two aren't contests of strength. 

Mougou then attacks Renpa who blocks, but is sent backwards:

*Spoiler*: __ 








Mougou on the attack again, proving his is stronger but slower + less skillful:



*Spoiler*: __ 







Both clash at the same time, Renpa out-manuevers Mougou:


So Renpa never actually threw Mougou around physically. Every time the two clashed (which was after the 'weight' kicked in), it became apparent that Mougou was stronger but was still far slower and much less skillful.

The weight never turned the tables - even when Mougou was having his best moment, he was just pushing Renpa away. Renpa was doing all the damage at all times, even when getting forced back.


----------



## Zhen Chan (Jun 21, 2014)

So we all agree if houken fought moubu he'd win right?

Moubu feels too slow imo


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

Yeah, Houken would beat Moubu. It'd be extreme diff though. Houken's skill is what wins it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> To be fair that's an exaggeration:
> 
> So Renpa never actually threw Mougou around physically. Every time the two clashed (which was after the 'weight' kicked in), it became apparent that Mougou was stronger but was still far slower and much less skillful.
> 
> The weight never turned the tables - even when Mougou was having his best moment, he was just pushing Renpa away. Renpa was doing all the damage at all times, even when getting forced back.



No, I said Mougou was throwing Renpa around. Weight doesn't make an individual more skilled - it just makes their blows heavier, essentially a strength stat increase. 

Despite Renpa being more technically skilled, Mougou knocked him back every time he managed to land a blow, and this was all due to the weight he holds over Renpa:


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 21, 2014)

I wouldn't say that Weight is simply a strength stat increase, its more like a thing that allows you to go past your limits and push even harder than you normally could. 

I think it could even be useful in strategies and such. Like when Shouheikun and Shoubunkun were doing their simulation battles in order to save Qin, they were pushing themselves quite hard. You'd think they would have some ''weight'' when its about saving your entire state.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I wouldn't say that Weight is simply a strength stat increase, its more like a thing that allows you to go past your limits and push even harder than you normally could.



I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree. I don't think weight has anything to do with limits - where in the manga has this ever been hinted at? I don't understand why Renpa would need to push himself beyond his limits just to strike at Shin. That makes absolutely no sense. When Gaimou was fighting Shin, it didn't look like Gaimou was exerting himself, let alone push himself past his limits - yet Shin was able to feel his weight. 

IMO, weight is an intangible, passive ability that adds mass to an individuals blow. Basically if you've ever seen the equation F=ma, I'd define weight as a mass (m) increase that proportionally increases the overall force (F) of blows. What accrues this mass? I'd say things like experience, the burden of being a General, revenge, etc.



> I think it could even be useful in strategies and such. Like when Shouheikun and Shoubunkun were doing their simulation battles in order to save Qin, they were pushing themselves quite hard. You'd think they would have some ''weight'' when its about saving your entire state.



I guess we can agree to disagree at this point because I can't possibly see this being plausible. We've never seen weight being applicable to anything but combat.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to completely disagree. I don't think weight has anything to do with limits - where in the manga has this ever been hinted at? I don't understand why Renpa would need to push himself beyond his limits just to strike at Shin. That makes absolutely no sense. When Gaimou was fighting Shin, it didn't look like Gaimou was exerting himself, let alone push himself past his limits - yet Shin was able to feel his weight.
> 
> IMO, weight is an intangible, passive ability that adds mass to an individuals blow. Basically if you've ever seen the equation F=ma, I'd define weight as a mass (m) increase that proportionally increases the overall force (F) of blows. What accrues this mass? I'd say things like experience, the burden of being a General, revenge, etc.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I guess we can agree to disagree. I just don't think weight is as simple as that. 
Dunno about Shin feeling Renpa's ''weight'', Renpa was the first one that strong to strike at him, what exactly does Shin even know about that? It was the first time for him so of course someone as strong as Renpa would leave an impression of great weight and Shin was talking crap when he was talking to Houken about his blows having no weight.

I really don't think you can feel someone's weight like that... if it simply adds strength, how would you know the difference between a really strong guy with no weight or a slightly weaker guy with great weight? 

I'm pretty sure that when the characters talk about weight of the hits they receive is simply meaning their physical strength. The real ''weight of a general'' is something different, I'm sure there's more to it than simple strength. Or at least that's what I hope is the case...


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> No, I said Mougou was throwing Renpa around. Weight doesn't make an individual more skilled - it just makes their blows heavier, essentially a strength stat increase.
> 
> Despite Renpa being more technically skilled, Mougou knocked him back every time he managed to land a blow, and this was all due to the weight he holds over Renpa:
> 
> ...



What I mean is, a few times you've said mentioned this 'base Mougou' and Mougou with the weight, but re-reading that fight I realised we never actually saw the two of them in a strength clash before Mougou mentioned his weight.

Mougou may or may not have been physically stronger than Renpa without all that weight.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

I don't think weight is apparent in strategy games.

What I'll never understand, is why weight meant that Mougou and Choutou were better at defending the wall than Ousen and Moubu. I can understand Ousen as he'd bail at the first sign of trouble, but I don't see what that has to do with weight.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 21, 2014)

I think Hara's idea with that was that those two were the longest serving Generals of Qin. The presence of the two of them like old solid statues that had stood through so many years of wear and tear in the kingdom's service would imbue the soldiers at the wall with the same confidence and determination. No other General would have the same amount of weight when it comes to defending the kingdom, and that weight transfers to their soldiers. It's basically the same thing as Moubu rousing his soldiers into a devastating offensive frenzy by virtue of being a pure offensive juggernaught himself.

The concept can be summed up in one sentence by saying: a blow with true determination behind it carries more weight. The same thing can be said for anything really, it doesn't need to be just combat. It's the same old theme seen in many mangas just wrapped in different colors and called something else. It *can* take the form of pushing past one's natural limitations, but it doesn't have to. The immense weight of Renpa's experience as a General is with him at all times and that's what Shin felt from him, as well as from Gaimou. The same is true for Ouki but in his fight with Houken, Ouki did have that extra bit that pushed him even further, much like Shin did against Houken. Mougu had extra weight against Renpa due to how strong his pent up hatred and desire to finally overcome the man was, but at Kankoku Pass, it was just his and Choutou's "standard" weight accrued from their long experience in loyal service to Qin.

The only problem I have with the idea is that sometimes it's taken a bit too far, with the ultimate example of course being Shin vs Houken. I still don't hate that scene but it does make it feel a little inconsistent, which is a problem in a manga that is otherwise usually very consistent.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Yeah, I guess we can agree to disagree. I just don't think weight is as simple as that.



There has been no indication otherwise, though. Except for this panel and that is stretching it with willpower:



Actually, your definition of it being a limit remover is a far simpler and easier argument.



> Dunno about Shin feeling Renpa's ''weight'', Renpa was the first one that strong to strike at him, what exactly does Shin even know about that? It was the first time for him so of course someone as strong as Renpa would leave an impression of great weight



That is a valid point to make had this been the first time Shin felt Renpa's weight, let alone weight, but after having gained experience, he was able to reflect on his encounter against Renpa and make a judgement we should all be able to agree is reliable. I am referring to the panels below, Shin clearly understands Renpa's weight:


*Spoiler*: __ 












> and Shin was talking crap when he was talking to Houken about his blows having no weight.



No, he wasn't. Houken has no noticeable weight. So far, almost every single instance application of weight has been for the sake of others. The ONLY instance where an argument could be made is Mougou. It seemed like his weight against Renpa was almost like it was fueled by a personal vendetta, but when you think about the countless men Mougou lost to Renpa, then it can be understandable that it might have been a combination of revenge and experience weight. Houken, on the other hand, has done absolutely nothing to accrue weight. For every event that helped an individual accrue weight, I can't possibly remember an instance in which that could have also been applied to Houken.

Even better, throughout this manga, Houken's inability to grasp weight has been a recurring theme.

- Houken's inability to grasp where Ouki power comes from.
-- Both the first time he fought, and the second time considering he went back to train because evidently, he figured that training must be the key.

- Duke's lecturing of Houken
-- Duke mentions that Houken gives of no hint about being a General, because he has no weight, but rather an intense martial aura a result of his intense training and skill. Also as to why like him who has no weight would show up at a battlefield. Weight is gained from the battlefield, just as Duke beautifully stated:


*Spoiler*: __ 










-His confusion at his battle against Shin. How he lost in strength and how the imposssible has just occured.


THEN, he replies with, "What in the world are you all?". He is prolly referring to both Ouki, Duke, and Shin. He doesn't seem to grasp that their strength stems from weight  - Houken doesn't grasp that.


- Then you have Riboku's mention of how Houken is currently standing at the end of his path. Why would he say that? The same reason why he agreed with Duke when he stated that Houken was a living contradiction. Riboku seems to understand what weight is and where you accrue it. He tells Houken he can find this in the battlefield, yet, despite that, Houken still hasn't grasped the concept, esentially forcing Riboku to tell him that he is standing at the end of his path. Why would someone who walks in darkness every hold weight for the sake of others?




> I really don't think you can feel someone's weight like that... if it simply adds strength, how would you know the difference between a really strong guy with no weight or a slightly weaker guy with great weight? I'm pretty sure that when the characters talk about weight of the hits they receive is simply meaning their physical strength. The real ''weight of a general'' is something different, I'm sure there's more to it than simple strength. Or at least that's what I hope is the case...



That is where the fantasy element comes into play. We've clearly seen Shin being able to distinguish weight from strength. Also, it isn't just added strength, I just simplified it so others could make the connection. It isn't strength. I'd define it as a passive increase in the force behind blows. The effect has an extrinsic effect, almost like pressure, that the individual is able to recognize as weight. Just like how Shin felt his bones rattle:





Kanki Is God said:


> What I mean is, a few times you've said mentioned this 'base Mougou' and Mougou with the weight, but re-reading that fight I realised we never actually saw the two of them in a strength clash before Mougou mentioned his weight.
> 
> Mougou may or may not have been physically stronger than Renpa without all that weight.



Mougou's base strength is around that of Renpa's:



I don't think they really comprehend weight, just like Houken. Why would they question that his strength "might" be greater then that of Renpa's when they are watching him knock Renpa back consistently. Most likely his base strength is near that of Renpa, and his weight is the added bonus he needed to further the gap. I actually wrote about this like a page or two back as well/


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 21, 2014)

> That is where the fantasy element comes into play. We've clearly seen Shin being able to distinguish weight from strength. Also, it isn't just added strength, I just simplified it so others could make the connection. It isn't strength. I'd define it as a passive increase in the force behind blows. The effect has an extrinsic effect, almost like pressure, that the individual is able to recognize as weight. Just like how Shin felt his bones rattle:



Meh...Your right, but I really wish this wasn't the case. Altho I still think weight might play some role in some other aspects than strength, but that's yet to be seen. 

I'm really starting to dislike this weight thing the more we talk about it. I'd rather it just be physical strength and skill rather than ''weight''.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Meh...Your right, but I really wish this wasn't the case. Altho I still think weight might play some role in some other aspects than strength, but that's yet to be seen.
> 
> I'm really starting to dislike this weight thing the more we talk about it. I'd rather it just be physical strength and skill rather than ''weight''.



I agree. Originally, weight didn't play much of  factor, but as the story has been progressing, it has become a prominent theme/factor in all of the major fights - so much so that we have to factor in the quantifiable elements of weight before we are able to discuss who is more skilled/stronger then who.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

Shin beating Houken in strength at that moment, was pure bullshit on reflection. It basically means Shin's power was over 100, if we go by stats. Meh. To be if that's as strong as Shin can become against Houken, then it should be that way vs anyone. And yet we saw Gaimou send him flying with ease. Thankfully we know Shin was one clash away from collapsing at that point which lessens the annoyance. With all that weight Shin could only just cut Houken. 

In every series, it's always the main characters who manage to piss me off the most. Shin, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, Gon....meh. 

And....forgive me brothers, for I have sinned. I 'read' the raw. If you're ever going to read a raw, this is the one to do it because I still have absolutely no clue what went on despite seeing the pictures. I just know I can't wait for the trans.

I'm VERY interested in the content. Sadly MJ don't usually translate on Sundays.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> And....forgive me brothers, for I have sinned. I 'read' the raw. If you're ever going to read a raw, this is the one to do it because I still have absolutely no clue what went on despite seeing the pictures. I just know I can't wait for the trans.
> 
> I'm VERY interested in the content. Sadly MJ don't usually translate on Sundays.



Well guess I'll check it out too.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Btw there's a summary on the last page that gives you some insight to the chapter.
Karin was looking good...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Shin beating Houken in strength at that moment, was pure bullshit on reflection. It basically means Shin's power was over 100, if we go by stats. Meh. To be if that's as strong as Shin can become against Houken, then it should be that way vs anyone. And yet we saw Gaimou send him flying with ease.



That was simply because Shin held so much more weight over Houken then Gaimou.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

@Moe...

Yeah, I know.



lazorwalrus said:


> Well guess I'll check it out too.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 




Was that Ordo in there? 
Shin wanting to show the rest of China how strong they are worries me. 
Tou regarding this as 'practice' for Shin/Ouhon is good though. It means he might retreat. 
Ouhon really did get his ass kicked. 

I can't wait to see the Ouki reference and if the Generals talk about each other.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 21, 2014)

Houken wasn't at full strength at the time so Shin overpowering him doesn't necessarily mean that Shin reached a strength over 100. Let's say Houken with one arm was a 96, Shin may then have reached a 97 with that one full-strength blow. That's still too steep I think most would agree. But it's better than 100+.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah, it looks like Ordo. 

Ouhon couldn't possibly be in shape tomorrow to take on Shihaku. Heck, not even a year would be enough for that.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

Ah yeah, I forgot about the broken arm....

raw:

*Spoiler*: __ 



That's why I think they might turn strategic. Shin might turn his battle around with instincts, Ouhon with strategy.

It's probably about time we stop underestimating Gohoumei. We talk of Kanki and co being on the level of Q6, but so is Gohoumei.


----------



## convict (Jun 21, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



Keep in mind that Gouhoumei has 3 Wei Fire Dragons under his command so it is really going to confuse me if people in universe tout Gouhoumei > Tou because of this war, just like people (and Ouki himself) started doing with Riboku and Ouki. Ouki was leading a riff-raff country hick squad against equivalent numbers of soldiers (because these were all the resources Qin could muster) when all of a sudden a huge new army that significantly elevated the opponent's numbers just suddenly came in near the later stages of the war. Give Ouki the same numerical advantage against Riboku and let us see if Riboku gets squashed like a bug or not.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

Wow, did everyone here read the raws?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

Doubt it. Most people don't. But then most people don't actually post anyway 

I don't normally. Don't know why I did today.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 21, 2014)

convict said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that Gouhoumei has 3 Wei Fire Dragons under his command so it is really going to confuse me if people in universe tout Gouhoumei > Tou because of this war, just like people (and Ouki himself) started doing with Riboku and Ouki. Ouki was leading a riff-raff country hick squad against equivalent numbers of soldiers (because these were all the resources Qin could muster) when all of a sudden a huge new army that significantly elevated the opponent's numbers just suddenly came in near the later stages of the war. Give Ouki the same numerical advantage against Riboku and let us see if Riboku gets squashed like a bug or not.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Yeah that's true. 
I hope when we see Riboku and Karin's dialogue, they talk about the Fire Dragons. I always like hearing other states' points of views. 




(non spoiler, just so others can get involved)

That being said, it really isn't outside the realms of possibility for Gohoumei to be considered by most to be greater than Tou anyway. He's Wei's number 1 Great General and is still young too. Plus, he had huge praise from Shunshinkun, Riboku and Mougou in the war. 

Tou isn't even a Great General and is still probably seen as just being 'Ouki's lieutenant'. Karin probably has a good idea of his level I suppose.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 21, 2014)

Tou reminds me of the other genins...


----------



## Canuckgirl (Jun 21, 2014)

GAH, waiting for that new chapter was a total nightmare!!!  Imma need to read three chapters in a row to satiate my hunger


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 22, 2014)

HxH, NNT, One Piece, Kingdom, Bleach, Naruto, Magi this week.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 22, 2014)

^ 10/10 post


----------



## Kanki (Jun 22, 2014)

Looks like no chapters today. Mangajoy never do Sunday's anyway and TF are still waiting for last weeks Japanese RAW's.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 22, 2014)

Bummer.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 22, 2014)

Can't wait to see, what their planning for the next assault.
Plus Ouhon getting trashed is always a good thing.


----------



## Orca (Jun 22, 2014)

How would you guys rank the Coalition army generals?

1. Riboku
2. Kanmei/Karin
3. Karin/Kanmei
4. Gohomei
5. Ordo/Keisha
6. Keisha/Ordo
7. Rinbukun
8. Seikai


----------



## Zhen Chan (Jun 22, 2014)

Ordo above sekai

What madness is this


----------



## Orca (Jun 22, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> Ordo above sekai
> 
> What madness is this



Elaborate. Why shouldn't he be?


----------



## Zhen Chan (Jun 22, 2014)

Because sekai was the most dangerous general. So much so he killed two of the opposing generals. Who else did that? Nobody. Closest was kanmei but ultimately his failure lead to the rout as the coalition was retreating


----------



## Orca (Jun 22, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> Because sekai was the most dangerous general. So much so he killed two of the opposing generals. Who else did that? Nobody. Closest was kanmei but ultimately his failure lead to the rout as the coalition was retreating



So are you saying Seikai was the best general coalition army had since he was able to kill an opposing general whereas none of the other generals could? Going by the same logic you might as well say shin was a better commander than Moubu since he was able to kill Fuuki during battle of Bayou whereas Moubu killed no one. 

As far as I remember, Seikai was responsible for killing only one of Qins generals. And even then if not for Gohoumei's crossbows, he wouldn't have been able to accomplish even that. 

Seikai was a pathetic fighter, average leader and even in terms of strategy he wasn't special. Ordo was a good fighter, great leader and just like how Seikai had the extra factor of poison, Ordo had the extra factor of terrain knowledge and mountain warfare.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 22, 2014)

But Ordo failed to accomplish anything, except hinder the entire coalition with his failure.
Seikai on the other hand, showed a tangible result for the coalition.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 22, 2014)

Had Seikai managed to kill Kanki, which he had a 1/3 chance of doing, he'd be regarded a lot higher. Mougou, Choutou and Kanki were pretty much at his mercy at that moment. They all had an equal chance. Kill Kanki and the wall probably gets taken (as Seikai would have survived).

He's incredible dangerous with sieges. Total fodder in close combat, but that shouldn't take away from his threat elsewhere. There's no way he should be behind Ribunkun. I'd argue Keisha too. Ordo is a little hard to judge because he was up against Godsen.

Riboku
Gouhoumei/Karin/Kanmei
Seikai/Keisha
Ribunkun/Ordo


----------



## Orca (Jun 22, 2014)

@Clandestine

But once again, one could say that Moubu was responsible for Ouki's death during battle of Bayou whereas shin was able to kill Fuuki who was considered the most important general for Zhao in that war. Shin also killed one of the ten crossbows during the same war. Does this mean shin is a better commander than Moubu? Ofcourse not.

Ordo's failure doesn't tell us of his incapability as much as it tells us how unlucky he was to be paired up with Ousen. Let's also not forget that if not for Gohoumei's siege towers and Crossbows, Seikai would have been completely useless during the battle of Kankoku pass.

Kanmei's failure was also very pivotal during the war. Does this mean Seikai is a better general than Kanmei as well?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 22, 2014)

Ordo being in an impossible situation doesn't mean he's fodder, but it's also total speculation to rank him higher than anyone else. The only thing we have to 'promote' him is hype - Yan Great General, able to unite mountain tribes etc. But that's all we have.

You can't put him ahead of Seikai, who we know is a legit threat to every General we've seen in the manga. Ordo might be one of those who isn't weak, but lacks the offensive might against the elites, a little like Rinbukun and Keisha.


----------



## haegar (Jun 22, 2014)

read through about 2/3ds of the weight debate before I suffered from tldr, till then good sport 

my 5cents: I always read it more psychological then physical as such. a characters weight, is, while it individually varries, usually something like the sum of experience, self-confidence, as well as the psychological relationship to the opponent in question.

in my eyes, no character has a *fixed* weight, rather, OTHERS attribute a character a certain weight in a certain situation. to me its more how another percieves an opponents psych aura if you so will. examples:

a) when Shin feels the exceptional weight of Renpa's blow, things that take part in it are i.e: Renpa being badass skilled &strong, and having been so for ages, and KNOWING it, fully expecting his blow to decapitate that little nuissance in front of him (thats the *spirit* Renpa put into it if you will) he lets lose that rageblow - and Shin feels that as *weight*. Shin also has a preconception/opinion about what a blow from Renpa *should* feel like, and that also goes into the weight he percieves, as does the fact that mere moments ago Renpa did a good one on Mogou's arm, and generally struts around that hilltop as if he had already won the battle, which he hasnt rly at that point. Simply put to Shin at that point point for various reasons both factual and psychological Renpa feels *overwhelming* and thus heavy as ****.

b) take Shin telling Houken he lacks weight. 
Well, first of all, hold your horses, this is SHIN blabbing mid-battle - why you all take him word by word lol?! He's half-dead already and challenging the strongest man he met so far, hell yea he gonna do some pep-talk to himself that also pisses of Houken, hence, he takes him, literally *lightly*

but well that wouldnt make a good example, so lets assume he was in earnest and Houken DOES lack weight compared to Renpa. So, how come? First, of all, it's not as if Houken is not giving off any *aura* as such, we have repeatedly seen his killing spirit or mere *aura or martial spirit* or what you wanna call it freezing people to fear of death. I would argue though that's not exactly the same thing as *weight*, - though these things could be a part of somebody's weight I guess. Regardless, in the case of Shin, while he acknowledges Houken's martial aura and skill, no weight. Well, maybe for Shin *weight* is somewhat bound do being a great general? No its not, he felt *weight* when he first encountered Ryou and his 4 pillars, even from the bureaucrats....

But yeah, all these people, they are pretty good at what they do, and they know it, and thus, from their side, they fullfill the requirements of giving of weight when facing the *weaker* kings faction, likewise, all in the room *expect* that they will feel like that, shin included.

Anyways, I digress into tldr, sry. as for Houken, well, it struck me that nearly all characters we see interacting with him outside the battlefield very quickly percieve him as psychologically suffering, or, more general, as a guy having issues, and it is his issues that drive him to go out and fight. His compelte self-understanding rests on his need to reaffirm his existence and right to exist through winning fights. that's an extremely brittle character foundation, and I thinnk Shin being the instinctual type, gets the vibe here. I mean it's the same for us readers, isnt it? Houken is deadly, and a raging calamity, but behind that, he is hollow, there is NOTHING in there. Picture Renpa on that hilltop in comparison, a guy 2 to 3 times the age of Houken, having all his success behind him and even now, while aging still searching for new challenges, and enjoying the battle. Houken btw, doesnt enjoy to fight, like i.e. the Duke does. Houken just acts on some urge he dont get himself. It actually makes him kinda pathetic considering how he is exploited by Riboku and Co lol. (btw, this guy will get development imho and come out of his onedimensonality at some point, cause otherwise he aint even worth the rematch for shin )

well, tldr, for me, its a psych thing stupid 

edit: oh right, raws:

*Spoiler*: __ 



concerning Tou, I read his remark on wanting the youth to shine and prove their worth as he is aware that currently things arent going so well, but trusts in the lads and is willing to tank this fight out the ugly way if need be, rather than him retreating and letting the kids do alone. I think we will see him helping them help themselves, somehow XD


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 22, 2014)

@ Luffee

Well, Shin and Moubu weren't the same rank.
So they can't really be compared, since the big shots weren't paying as much attention on Shins movements.
Kanmei has his hype with Oukatsu, to fallback on.

And Seikai brought his own ballistas to launch the poison, so I don't know why you give Gouhoumei credit for those.
We also don't know Seikais true skill, since Kanki caught him completely off guard.

He and Ordo are big unknowns, noted to be skilled in their niches.
Poison and mountain combat as their forte, but this doesn't really let us judge their true skills.
So we can only examine their accomplishments and Seikai trumps Ordo in that regard.

Now you say Ordo had the misfortune to face Ousen, but I can also say Seikai had the misfortune of dealing with Kanki.
If the both of them didn't have such a skilled opponent, I'm sure they would both accomplish much, much more.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 22, 2014)

Reading haegars post made me realize Houken has mental issues. I can't name which one it is, but it is on the tip of my tongue.


----------



## Orca (Jun 22, 2014)

> Well, Shin and Moubu weren't the same rank.
> So they can't really be compared, since the big shots weren't paying as much attention on Shins movements.
> Kanmei has his hype with Oukatsu, to fallback on.



You have a fair point with Moubu and Shin not having the same rank. Yet as you said Kanmei's hype tells us that he should be above Seikai even if Seikai had better achievements. Similarly even if Ordo doesn't have similar hype to Kanmei, we shouldn't class him below Seikai simply due to achievements. Getting achievements is completely situational. 



> And Seikai brought his own ballistas to launch the poison, so I don't know why you give Gouhoumei credit for those.
> We also don't know Seikais true skill, since Kanki caught him completely off guard.



I think I mixed up Wei's crossbows with Hans'. My bad.



> He and Ordo are big unknowns, noted to be skilled in their niches.
> Poison and mountain combat as their forte, but this doesn't really let us judge their true skills.
> So we can only examine their accomplishments and Seikai trumps Ordo in that regard.



While it is true that Seikai has the achievement of taking a Qin general's life. At the same time  he himself also died resulting in a loss of a general for the Coalition army. So that balances out the achievements I'd say.



> Now you say Ordo had the misfortune to face Ousen, but I can also say Seikai had the misfortune of dealing with Kanki.
> If the both of them didn't have such a skilled opponent, I'm sure they would both accomplish much, much more.



That's what I'm saying. Both Ordo and Seikai's achievements could have changed against different different opponents, terrains etc. Therefore I don't think achievements in one war are enough to Judge two generals since it is completely situational. 



			
				Kanki Is God said:
			
		

> Ordo being in an impossible situation doesn't mean he's fodder, but it's also total speculation to rank him higher than anyone else. The only thing we have to 'promote' him is hype - Yan Great General, able to unite mountain tribes etc. But that's all we have.
> 
> You can't put him ahead of Seikai, who we know is a legit threat to every General we've seen in the manga. Ordo might be one of those who isn't weak, but lacks the offensive might against the elites, a little like Rinbukun and Keisha.




The thing about Seikai is that he is extremely lethal. I mean with the right hit he could even kill a general like Kanki or Ousen. But is his lethality a measure of his calibre? I don't think so. What if he isn't able to locate enemy general like he did against Choutou?

On the other hand if we look at Ordo, he has the ability to read terrains and also has advantage in mountain warfare. So that should balance out Seikai's lethality. If we were to put aside Seikai's lethality and Ordo's terrain reading ability and look at other attributes, then we know Ordo is a far better combatant. If we replace Seikai with Ordo when he was attacked by Kanki and Choutou, can we say with 100% confident that they would have been able to kill Ordo? We know that they would had atleast a lot more trouble. Other then that, we also know that Ordo is a far better leader. The way I see it, the scale tips in Ordo's favour.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 22, 2014)

Luffee said:


> You have a fair point with Moubu and Shin not having the same rank. Yet as you said Kanmei's hype tells us that he should be above Seikai even if Seikai had better achievements. Similarly even if Ordo doesn't have similar hype to Kanmei, we shouldn't class him below Seikai simply due to achievements. Getting achievements is completely situational.



But Ordo has no real hype aside from being a Great General. If anything he has been de-hyped because we now know people in the Yan palace argued over whether or not he was the best person to go. 

The comparison with Kanmei isn't really appropriate because no one says Seikai is a greater General than Kanmei, and the latter has enormous feats himself. He was undefeated in combat, defeated Oukotsu, barely lost to Moubu - these are feats that match up to his hype.

What hype does Ordo have that can compare to Kanmei? In fact, what hype does he have that can match Seikai's feats? We don't know enough about him. It wouldn't surprise me if he is actually far above what Ousen reduced him to appearing as, but at this point it's pure speculation. 



> While it is true that Seikai has the achievement of taking a Qin general's life. At the same time  he himself also died resulting in a loss of a general for the Coalition army. So that balances out the achievements I'd say.



Seikai died thanks to being fooled by Kanki's plan, who I think we all agree is superior to Seikai. Sure he died in combat to Choutou, but lets face it  the exact same thing would have happened to Gohoumei if Choutou was charging directly at him as well.

Seikai won't be the first or the last General to fall victim to Kanki's tricks. A genius in Genbou fell for them equally as much. 



> That's what I'm saying. Both Ordo and Seikai's achievements could have changed against different different opponents, terrains etc. Therefore I don't think achievements in one war are enough to Judge two generals since it is completely situational.



So then what are you basing your assessment of Ordo on? We only have 3 things to go by; feats, hype and portrayal. 

Seikai's offence was deadly enough that he could have killed any of the 3 Generals on the wall. He happened to take out Choutou, but there was an equal possibility of him killing Kanki. I guarantee that it was Kanki poisoned and not Choutou, we aren't having this discussion. 



> The thing about Seikai is that he is extremely lethal. I mean with the right hit he could even kill a general like Kanki or Ousen. But is his lethality a measure of his calibre? I don't think so. What if he isn't able to locate enemy general like he did against Choutou?



Then Seikai is in trouble, obviously. But then it's not always hard to locate an enemy. Everything in this manga is effected by situation, but we can't just dismiss things because of that.

From this war we understood that Seikai was a lethal General who had an incredibly haxx offence, but one of the most haxx and dangerous offences in the series. 

We really didn't see enough of Ordo to gauge his abilities because he was so overwhelmingly crushed. I get that he's probably a good leader, good in combat and great in mountains, but what's he shown that could cause harm to an elite General in an average setting i.e on the plains? Nothing as of yet. You can't hide behind the fact that he was against Ousen to somehow increase his hype.

He's still a mystery. That's why I put him in the same bracket as a Keisha and Seikai. All 3 are completely different, but all have strengths. Seikai (and Keisha) might have a clear weakness, but you could also argue that Ordo's weakness is he hasn't showed anything to make us thing he'd be a threat to elites in a setting that isn't in mountains. 



> On the other hand if we look at Ordo, he has the ability to read terrains and also has advantage in mountain warfare. So that should balance out Seikai's lethality. If we were to put aside Seikai's lethality and Ordo's terrain reading ability and look at other attributes, then we know Ordo is a far better combatant.



I don't think Ordo's ability with terrains/mountains are equal to Seikai's lethality. Seikai can be lethal in any situation. Ordo on level land? Ordo in a seige? Ordo defending a castle? Seikai is useful in all of these. Ordo _might_ be. Might.



> If we replace Seikai with Ordo when he was attacked by Kanki and Choutou, can we say with 100% confident that they would have been able to kill Ordo? We know that they would had atleast a lot more trouble. Other then that, we also know that Ordo is a far better leader. The way I see it, the scale tips in Ordo's favour.



Kanki has managed to trick the likes of Kaishibou, Genbou, Seikai...there's nothing really to suggest Ordo could defend that. Can Ordo really defeat Kanki in any situation where he isn't in mountains? Seikai can defeat Kanki in any scenario where Kanki is stationary.

Although as it happens, Kanki is a bit of a nightmare for Seikai because he's so hard to pin down. 

We'll probably see Ordo later on where he'll show some more attributes, but right now I don't think he's above Seikai or Keisha at all. Not because I don't rate him, but because I think you're underestimating Seikai. That doesn't mean I see Seikai as an elite Great General, though. In fact I don't. If I was to rate every General with a number, he wouldn't be that high. Certainly nowhere near a Kanki or Kanmei, for instance.


----------



## rajin (Jun 23, 2014)

*Kingdom 391 Raw*

*And does anyone have an idea what this picture is to represent?*


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

Chapter should be out on Mangajoy in about 20 minutes from this post. 
Chapter 164


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)




----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Chapter should be out on Mangajoy in about 20 minutes from this post.
> Chapter 164



What kind of sick game are you playin'? Why don't you just tell us when it's released instead of having us just sit here waiting hungrily. You a sick person, KIG.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

eh? what's wrong with getting a headsup on some estimate some group posted? im generally thankful to people linking to raw or preEG _pre-turnip_ translation, saves me the time of searching myself if its already released. same case with a *should be up in X mins*, I wont have to check their page next half hour, including some margin of error being back in 40 mins itll prly work out. as it happens just now I can afford some leisurely procrastination so I post waiting gifs for the funs


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

I follow the path of my god


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

haegar said:


> eh? what's wrong with getting a headsup on some estimate some group posted? im generally thankful to people linking to raw or preEG translation, saves me the time of searching myself if its already released. same case with a *should be up in X mins*, I wont have to check their page next half hour, including some margin of error being back in 40 mins itll prly work out. as it happens just now I can procrastinate so I post waiting gifs for the funs



Would you shut up?

This is between me and KIG! You don't want in on this rage.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

*Spoiler*: _OT_ 





Moe-058 said:


> Would you shut up?
> 
> This is between me and KIG! You don't want in on this rage.



Wah,  a man on a mission!!!


well, knock yourself out, though I hear for some people buying a punching bag works too


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Chapter should be out on Mangajoy in about 20 minutes from this post.
> Chapter 164



30 minutes and counting...



haegar said:


> *Spoiler*: _OT_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Punching bag don't scream.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

*Spoiler*: _OT_ 



I dont picture kanki as the screaming type, so what exactly is the upgrade to the punching bag?
that being said, if they dont release at 40mins after kanki's post I agree it is ok to hold him solely responsible for any emotional trauma on your part that might have sprung from this sad situation 

anyways, this stinks obvious, you' just pretending some fake rage to pass the time till chapter


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

haegar said:


> *Spoiler*: _OT_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I unno, I get the impression he's a screamer.

Nah, I'm watching Spain vs Australia. Wanted to watch Australia stomp them...


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

while im all go aussie go I somehow dont see it happening. whats the score?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

haegar said:


> while im all go aussie go I somehow dont see it happening. whats the score?



Spain: 3-0.

Game ended.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

So.....which one of you guys just posted this on Mangajoy:



> *Anon3132: so I know this dude, who, totally trusting in you folks, about an hour ago, posted on some forum, that chap would be up in 20mins, BASED on your above msg 30mins up. Now the other posters are about getting rdy to lynch him. what you say to that?*


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

I couldnt possibly comment ...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Not me, I swear, but hahahah.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 23, 2014)

Still didn't read 391.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

Chapter 164 

there. observe kanki getting ninjaed below 

edit: or not. spoilsport


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

A confusing  and upsetting chapter, tbh...


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

confusing in how far? kinda transitional chapter building the hype for the 3rd day I guess? plus showing some good sides to Tou there. That'll have to be one hell of a trap by chibi to make good on 4k vs 10-20k troops. IF those numbers are right, not sure if 10-20k meant only the reserves or the whole army Shin's bunch gotta face?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

They didn't translate the last page.



Moe-058 said:


> A confusing  and upsetting chapter, tbh...



Why?

It's a shame that Tou doesn't want to prove himself here tbh.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

I dunno, if the kids prove themselves so does Tou? We'll have to see how that plays out. I like this pragamtic side about him though, and the fact he dont feel inclined to having to prove anything to anybody. I also like how in doing this he is honoring Ouki's last deeds, which were on a basic level pretty much to acknowledge Sei and root for his cause of unification. In promoting the next gen Tou is doing the best he can to build a foundation towards that goal.

 And I'm sure in terms of Qin Generals by now most of them that were supposed to die as part of the old gen did, and those that still stick around will go forward some more. Mouten/Ouhon/Shin on the one side and Kanki/Ousen/Tou on the other will eventually beceome the GreatGeneral lineup I would assume at this point. So I'm not worried about Tou getting the chance to shine eventually.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

I suppose it fits Tou's character. This is a guy who was more than powerful enough to be a legend in his own right and yet he chose to be a lieutenant. He's never really interested in making himself be known throughout China. His goal is simply to achieve Ouki's ambition. The opinions of other states probably doesn't matter to him.

I would like to see him be a bit more selfish and perhaps aim to step out of Ouki's shadow, but ah well.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> They didn't translate the last page.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?



Translation was pretty shitty.

Upset as to why Hara keeps Tou on the bench. Why? This was his time to shine - the perfect time to shine. It even said so in the manga, that all of China would be watching to see who is better between Tou and Gohoumei, but instead he is relegating that opportunity to Shin and Ouhon and for what? To help Qin get some GG's? To realize follow in Ouki's path? To realize Sei's dream? That is nice and all but can we get some freakin' Tou development? Jeez.

Confused as to:

Two of the greatest warriors at the time? What? Gohomei and karin? Get the fuck out. That was the first we heard of either of them. Despite them having great showings, there were far more dangerous Generals that I figured people would be watching for - most likely Riboku and Kanmei. I'mma chalk this one up to bad translation.

Again, as to why Hara doesn't give Tou any development.

Then we find out that the reserve troops have remain untouched, and that Shin's unit has 4k remaining. So how does Shin plan to face the main army? What is more surprising is how they managed to break through the first defense line against 10k men with just 1k casualties as a result.

Then you have Rokoumi make absolutely no progress and that he claims he'll break into the camp tomorrow.

Ouhon's army lost to Shihaku and he is injured.

Shin has been busy trying to regain some of his lost progression.

How is this plan going accordingly?

You know what is going to happen? They've mentioned that something is going to happen "tomorrow" several times. I know they are under the impression that somehow all three will break through to the main camp, but this seems to be far from realistic - almost bullshitplotnarutolevel.

The plan doesn't seem to be going accordingly, it looks like they are failing quite hard, yet they will manage to pull something out by "tomorrow". I am curious as to how hara plans to do this. It is quite obvious that Hara wants the focus entirely on shin and Ouhon, so I don't see why Ousen would come in to save them.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

Rukuomi made more progression than both Shin/Ouhon.

I'm thinking the translation was actually Karin + Gohoumei being 2 new superpowers, as opposed to the 2 greatest. All the other Generals were well known. Although how one can become Chu's 3rd greatest General without being known all over the country I don't know...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

It says here that he hasn't.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> It is quite obvious that Hara wants the focus entirely on shin and Ouhon



Actually I kinda expect success to come from a) Ten coming up with something rly rly good and b) and more importantly, MOUTEN, who so far was LEFT OUT suspiciously of the action, coming in and doing more then just his part. He's demonstrated before that of the three of them, he is the one with the broadest view accross the greater battlefield, and the one most likely to value overall success over personal achievement. Mouten is gonna pull something here me thinks, whatever it'll turn out to be.

Unless, hara is gonna troll us good with a fatal loss aka "whoops, sry they kids ain't rdy yet for the next step". 

edit: oh right, my 5cents on that likely translation clusterfuxck regarding karin/tou.

What I would expect him to say in that context is something like, "After all folks witnessed the very close, high level battle between Karin and Tou, NOW, everybody is watching Tou to see how he does against Gouhomei" ... or some such?


edit2: ad to the matter of things going according to plan or not: the strategy was a huge gamble to begin with, so it is actually not surprising, and should be considered in planning that even the act of reaching the starting point of the great ploy on day 3 will be COSTLY. however things are going according to plan still insofar as nobody has fucked up cardinally -YET - Granted, Ouhon is close to that having gotten himself injured to the point he did. However had he heeded his dubious watchdog's advice the plan would already have failed in day2, which it didnt cause he somehow managed to survive, if barely.

what I can see is Shin beating his General opponent, cause, well, he is Shin! Hopefully the asspull feels will be as low as possible. I can also see Ten managing the difference in numbers so that a duell between the 2 can happen in the first place.

I can also see Mouten being shown doing his part alright, and adding some more, most likely by somehow helping out Ouhon.
But even with that I dont see how Ouhon can manage, so yeah, Ouhon seems to be the weakest link atm, and Hara *might* introduce something unexpected via Rukuomi's side ....


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Well, I'd consider Ten to be a part of Shin. What was meant to be taken away from that statement was that this chapter pretty much solidified my fears that Tou would, for the most part, not be the focus of this arc, but instead it would be the next generation - which includes Kyoukai, Ten, and Mouten.

Maybe Tou will come riding on his unicorn just before thing's completely fail for Ouhon, Shin, and Rokoumi, and save the day.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

well its one thing for him to let them do their thing, and a totally different thing for him to just sit by idly and watch how things go bad. course he will do something at some point, he'd be retarded if he didnt. He does seem willing to wait till last moment though with that...


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Any new Kingdom art ?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

haegar said:


> what I can see is Shin beating his General opponent, .



no No *NO*!!!

I'm still holding on to hope that this won't happen.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

haegar, don't edit your posts, just post it. I'd have missed it if I didn't scroll up.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Gaimou will lose to Shin but I'm sure the fight will be a close one.
I could also see Gaimou somehow teaching Shin. Cuz they are so alike.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

No, I don't see how Shihaku or Gaimou could lose. I honestly cannot. It might happen, but... *shrugs*


----------



## Stevenh1990 (Jun 23, 2014)

I can see Gaimou losing if Shin and Kyokai double team him.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

However I cannot see Shin agreeing to double team this guy at all 

just to clarify, im not in favor of shin winning after having seen their first bout, but I think it cant hurt to get rdy for it regardless given its shin


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 23, 2014)

I liked the chapter. Tou gave us the reason as to why hes doing what hes doing and it makes sense. Qin needs Ouhon, Shin, Mouten and Kyoukai to step up and Tou has been paying attention to the young generation before.

Also seeing how badly Ouhon is injured, its now more or less impossible for him to beat Shihaku. And Ten is coming up with plans so I think they will go strategic. Also Hara also made it pretty clear that there are clear chances of this failing as well so I still can't really say if Qin got this or not.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Stevenh1990 said:


> I can see Gaimou losing if Shin and Kyokai double team him.



I doubt Shin would do that since he wants a duel.
Even more since he has respect.

Gaimiu giving Ten unharmed... its a very nice thing.
It might even make Shin not kill gaimou ( if he wins )



Moe-058 said:


> No, I don't see how Shihaku or Gaimou could lose. I honestly cannot. It might happen, but... *shrugs*



Losing those not mean necessary death. 
And I think at least 1 of the dragons will lose.

Ouhon is hyped so much... I can't see him failing.
Shin... hmmm its a toss of coin tho I really hope gaimou will join qin or somehow teach shin they are so much alike.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Also Moe how's the poll's going. ?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 23, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> Ouhon is hyped so much... I can't see him failing.
> Shin... hmmm its a toss of coin tho I really hope gaimou will join qin or somehow teach shin they are so much alike.



If he can somehow recover from that beating in a day and proceed to win Shihaku... No way, just can't see it happening. 

Kanjou might do something tho, hes still a mystery.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> Also Moe how's the poll's going. ?



I've taken to the role. This one has been up for a week or so.


----------



## Stevenh1990 (Jun 23, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> If he can somehow recover from that beating in a day and proceed to win Shihaku... No way, just can't see it happening.
> 
> Kanjou might do something tho, hes still a mystery.



The state that ouhon is in is the same as shin after his 2nd fight with rinko. After getting some rest he got up the next day went toe to toe with rinko and beat him. So it may not impossible with ouhon as well, I  don't believe he will win though.


----------



## haegar (Jun 23, 2014)

I wonder, back in the day, did Rinko feel to us readers as much stronger than Shin as the Wei dragons do now? Before Shin beat him that is ...


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 23, 2014)

Stevenh1990 said:


> The state that ouhon is in is the same as shin after his 2nd fight with rinko. After getting some rest he got up the next day went toe to toe with rinko and beat him. So it may not impossible with ouhon as well, I  don't believe he will win though.



There is a clear difference tho, Shin actually managed to push Rinko back in their first proper fight and take 2 of his fingers. Ouhon has been completely outclassed and only thing he managed to show us is that there should be no way for him to beat Shihaku.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

Rinko sent Shin flying in their first mini-clash. I'm sure he won the next one easily too, and that was with Ouhon fighting as well.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 23, 2014)

I don't see In losing this.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I've taken to the role. This one has been up for a week or so.



Nice 



lazorwalrus said:


> If he can somehow recover from that beating in a day and proceed to win Shihaku... No way, just can't see it happening.
> 
> Kanjou might do something tho, hes still a mystery.



Well Tou is trying to prove young generation >gohoumei
Somehow they will reach Gohoumei...

I don't know what Ouhon will do. But I think he could trap the Wei dragon.
Shin has some respect for Gaimou... I have a feeling Gaimou will test him.

I can't see the dragons dying  tho I feel Gohoumei might die.

All of china is looking so they must acomplish something at least.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

I just can't see the logic in having 2 of the strongest 4 antagonists defeated *before * the major invasion arc.
Remember, this is ultimately a set up arc.

At a push, I could understand a tie, but really that still makes no sense. Wei currently have 4 Great Generals, and it'll kill any and all tension if 2 lose now considering the army that Qin send over to take over Wei will likely be superior to the one we have now.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I just can't see the logic in having 2 of the strongest 4 antagonists defeated *before * the major invasion arc.
> Remember, this is ultimately a set up arc.
> 
> At a push, I could understand a tie, but really that still makes no sense. Wei currently have 4 Great Generals, and it'll kill any and all tension if 2 lose now considering the army that Qin send over to take over Wei will likely be superior to the one we have now.



But losing those not mean necessary death for them.
They could retreat or they get KO in a duel and their army takes them back and retreats.

I lm guessing this is a proving arc where qin does prove their power.
Maybe not winning ( tho I see gohoumei death ) but doing alot of damage and winning some reputation for defeating the dragons.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

The Faceless Man said:


> But losing those not mean necessary death for them.
> They could retreat or they get KO in a duel and their army takes them back and retreats.
> 
> I lm guessing this is a proving arc where qin does prove their power.
> Maybe not winning ( tho I see gohoumei death ) but doing alot of damage and winning some reputation for defeating the dragons.



But then why should we care about the big Wei war that is to come if Shin has already beaten Gaimou? It's illogical. I can't see Gohoumei dying. We's number 1 isn't dying until Wei themselves are taken over. 

Also, Shin defeating a legend so soon just doesn't sit well with me. We're a long way off the unification process and Shin is already killing a guy who's arguably in the top 3 or 4 combatants in China? Meh.

We're all probably worried for no reason though.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> But then why should we care about the big Wei war that is to come if Shin has already beaten Gaimou? It's illogical. I can't see Gohoumei dying. We's number 1 isn't dying until Wei themselves are taken over.
> 
> Also, Shin defeating a legend so soon just doesn't sit well with me. We're a long way off the unification process and Shin is already killing a guy who's arguably in the top 3 or 4 combatants in China? Meh.
> 
> We're all probably worried for no reason though.



Well maybe because they will get help to defeat them or they win by plot.

Ouhon does a trap like his father does and wins like that but not in a duel. Or he gets helped by Tou.
Gaimou has something for Shin... he could wish to test him and then let him go. Or better the Kyoukai team up tho it sounds absurd. 
It might happen tho since this is Kyoukai's first step to.

And maybe Tou dies and this is not in vain so we don't know what will happen in the invasion.
Who knows maybe Wei has its own young generation to.

There are many ways to make it believable and make justice to both Qin and Wei.
Like you said it could end in a draw somehow but Wei being really pushed.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> But then why should we care about the big Wei war that is to come if Shin has already beaten Gaimou? It's illogical. I can't see Gohoumei dying. We's number 1 isn't dying until Wei themselves are taken over.
> 
> Also, Shin defeating a legend so soon just doesn't sit well with me. We're a long way off the unification process and Shin is already killing a guy who's arguably in the top 3 or 4 combatants in China? Meh.
> 
> We're all probably worried for no reason though.



More like top 5 or 6.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 23, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> More like top 5 or 6.



No amount of 'experience' can sharpen Renpa's walking stick


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 23, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> No amount of 'experience' can sharpen Renpa's walking stick



I laughed so hard that I'm going to sig this.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 23, 2014)

I'll be honest, I'm not that impressed by Gaimou.  We're basically basing his strength off his butt sniffing right hand man and Shin feeling his weight.  I don't doubt that Shihaku annihilated the other 3 fire dragons, i don't doubt it one bit.  The only reason Gaimou is still around is because Shihaku thought his glaive looked cool.  Shin taking him down in some epic fight wouldn't stir me the wrong way at all.

Ouhon on the other hand, is he even going to fight "tomorrow" or is Daddy going to come save the day and get schooled by Shihaku too? That situation seems pretty hopeless at this point.  Tou may have a plan for that end.

As for Tou in general, I'm completely ok with this path Hara is taking with him.  It actually strengthens Ouki's dying words that Tou is indeed in the same class as him.  

This is Tou's character, he doesn't want to be recognized as an individual carrying Qin's flag.  He wants to be recognized as the man that carries the Great Ouki's legacy.  With that said, I have no doubt we're still going to see Tou tear some shit up before this arc ends.

Lastly, I don't buy this is a setup arc for a future Wei invasion arc.  In my opinion, this IS the final time we'll see Wei and their fire generals.  This IS the last time we'll see what Gohoumei is made of.  I would not be surprised if later on in the story there's just 2 or 3 pages showing a Qin army executing the Wei King and putting a Qin flag in the palace.  I mean, you don't have to kill an entire state's army to conquer it.  Qin still had almost every general at the pass and what seemed to be an entire state border patrol alive, yet, if Riboku killed Sei, Qin would've been erased off the map.  We may just see Shihaku go seek asylum in Qi after this war. 

Shit, who predicted Renpa's arc would end with him and two heavenly kings seeking asylum in Chu?

tl;dr 

This is the last Wei war.  Tou's time to shine will be against Zhao.  Shihaku will find another bitch.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 24, 2014)

I can't see Hara essentially 'of paneling' the major Wei war, to be honest.


----------



## haegar (Jun 24, 2014)

man im re-reading this stuff to often and too much all over the place and end up confusing things. to lazy to go back and edit but just ignore whatever I said about the not present Mouten in this battle lol. I'm still confused though, I *thought* he was there too, considering Tou used him and Ouhon before - where the frack did he end up? with all this *3 small armys* being in play I kinda just naturally assumed its the 3 youngsters...

as for the wei war, I think its too early for those predictions. We could see a long campaign with the Wei army on the defense falling back further and further after they lose this... or we could get some sort of stalemate in this battle and then like another time of rebuilding the offense before the next big battle, or whatever, to me this still can go any way and its not clear at all how Hara wants to handle it. 

Anyways, generally, dunno why Wei war should be cut short. Given 392's last page, IF this IS the first step to great general, I would expect it to be shown by Hara in sufficient detail.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jun 24, 2014)

If Hara wants to push the whole new generation, and this war is the big test. Don't be suprised if the young kids somehow pull off a win. 

Altough I'm afraid we're going completely shounen and if this guys are defeated, suddenly a new stronger group will pop up and so on.

This Shihaku dude seems like a good opponent for Ouhon to face in the future. Shin is gonna be the strongest ever so I don't mind that much if he wins. At least those guys are what 20 or something...not 15 year olds saving the world.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 24, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I can't see Hara essentially 'of paneling' the major Wei war, to be honest.



Just bringing in another perspective.  It would almost feel stagnant to have this war again, with the same fire dragons... And Gohoumei... And same matchups .... For another 50+ chapters for the "major" Wei arc...

Will there be "setup" arcs for Zhao, Chu, Yan, Han, and Qi too?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 24, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Just bringing in another perspective.  It would almost feel stagnant to have this war again, with the same fire dragons... And Gohoumei... And same matchups .... For another 50+ chapters for the "major" Wei arc...
> 
> Will there be "setup" arcs for Zhao, Chu, Yan, Han, and Qi too?



The Zhao war is largely set up, and we've seen a lot of Chu also. Han being the smallest/weakest state I don't think needs much of a build up because it's easy to write a plot there. 

If we see Qin completely out played here then it makes us more excited to see the rematch and will have more of an impact when Wei is later defeated.

I suppose your theory could happen though


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 24, 2014)

TF version of 391 is out, aw yes.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 24, 2014)

Figured they were stepsiblings.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 24, 2014)

TF fixing mangajoy's gibberish, yet again.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 24, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> TF fixing mangajoy's gibberish, yet again.



Wait 'till next chapter...


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 24, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> The Zhao war is largely set up, and we've seen a lot of Chu also. Han being the smallest/weakest state I don't think needs much of a build up because it's easy to write a plot there.
> 
> If we see Qin completely out played here then it makes us more excited to see the rematch and will have more of an impact when Wei is later defeated.
> 
> I suppose your theory could happen though



Still wouldn't mind some humble pie for Qin


----------



## Kanki (Jun 24, 2014)

TF completely dominated MJ this week.

I wish MJ didn't exist in a way. I'm so impatient that I won't be ignoring their translations, but it would be easier if we just has TF. Looking forward to next weeks trans.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 25, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Wait 'till next chapter...




Its out.
TF for the greatest general of the heavens.

Shin is deluded, if he thinks this is his first step to becoming a great general.
As much as I despise the prick, this is clearly Ouhon's moment of glory.
He needs to start showing his battle instincts and stop being helpless without Ten, for me to acknowledge him.

Unless of course, he wants to become the next Mougou.
Then he is on the right path.
In fact, he is the most similar great general to Shin we have seen in the series.  
He has his physical strength, with Ten and Kyoukai as his Ousen/Kanki combo.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 25, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Its out.
> TF for the greatest general of the heavens.
> 
> Shin is deluded, if he thinks this is his first step to becoming a great general.
> ...



Well it comes down to what exactly Shin can achieve in this war, if they manage to win and Shin plays a major role in that, then its definitely going to get him a promotion and be a step towards becoming a great general.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 25, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Its out.
> TF for the greatest general of the heavens.



I meant the translation for MJ 392.


So, guys, I have a bunch of questions that I want you to answer:

1. Do you think we'll get to see Shin's instinctual abilities in play here?
2. If not, why do you think Hara keeps delaying it?
3. Do you think Hara will continue to make Tou live in Ouki's shadow or that he'll let him step out of it and become the GG he can be?
4. Do you still think Qin can lose this?
5. Will Ouhon and Shin defeat Shihaku and Gaimou in combat?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 25, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well it comes down to what exactly Shin can achieve in this war, if they manage to win and Shin plays a major role in that, then its definitely going to get him a promotion and be a step towards becoming a great general.



Well, yeah.
But that was true for every single battle until now.
However Kyoukai made it sound, like this is a special moment to showcase his abilities as a future general.
For that, I actually expect Shin to do something worthy of being a general.
Ouhon did that by directing the entire battle plan for this war. 
Shin on the other hand, did nothing even remotely comparable.

Right now, he is an exceptionally strong fighter, but that is a far cry from being a general, let alone a great general.
He actually needs to display his leadership qualities.
Currently Shin is basically Houken and Ten is Riboku, pointing him in the direction she wants him to go.
Or like the guy under Reiou as another example.

Like I said, this is perfectly fine, if he wants to go the Mougou route.
Unfortunately, that isn't what he is going for.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 25, 2014)

I'd be surprised if Shin becomes a Great General in the first unification war. We'll probably be about 50-60% through the series then. If his path is to be General > Great General > Greatest General then you'd expect the GG part to be done when the series is closer to 75% finished.

I always assumed he'd reach that point when he defeats Houken, which will probably be the 3rd state to fall.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 25, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I meant the translation for MJ 392.



I know.
I'm saying chapter 392 is out.
Watch The Other Woman Movie Online


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 25, 2014)

Thanks, CS, I just got an email about it.

Wow, how the fuck did MJ fuck up this panel so badly.

Calling them two of the greatest warriors...what a butcher.


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Kanki (Jun 25, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I meant the translation for MJ 392.
> 
> 
> So, guys, I have a bunch of questions that I want you to answer:
> ...



I'm sure we will. In fact he has to, really. The only thing I'd say is that Gaimou isn't really the type of General who can bring that out of him. Perhaps Gohoumei could create some sort of trap to allow Shin to show it. 

I wouldn't say Hara's delaying it. We saw a good amount in the last arc. 



> 3. Do you think Hara will continue to make Tou live in Ouki's shadow or that he'll let him step out of it and become the GG he can be?



I think Tou's ambition is clear now. He doesn't care for personal titles. Hara's now given everyone a clear goal. Ousen wants his own kingdom, Moubu wants to be number 1, Kanki just loves warfare and Tou wants to see his masters dream realised.

Whether or not he'll stay in Ouki's shadow, I dunno. I don't think he'll ever be as famous as the other Qin Generals, but he'll definitely do some major stuff. Of course, the fact that he wants to try and be a 'bridge' for Shin and co to become Great Generals means that there's a decent chance he'll die. As in sacrificing himself for the next Generation or something.



> 4. Do you still think Qin can lose this?



I change my mind a lot. Right now, I'm thinking Qin will win, sadly.



> 5. Will Ouhon and Shin defeat Shihaku and Gaimou?



I think so.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 25, 2014)

In combat?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 25, 2014)

Yeah I think so. The one way I won't actually mind Shin winning however is if he defeats Wei's army via his instincts, forcing Gohoumei to retreat. But it needs to be made clear that in order to win, Shin had to avoid fighting Gaimou in straight up combat. It also mirrors the way in which Ouki used to fight him.

Then we can see them have an actual duel in a later Wei vs Qin war.


----------



## Lezu (Jun 25, 2014)

Please don't let Qin to win this war, I beg you.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 25, 2014)

Heh, I'd probably find it funny if Shin manages to beat Gaimou using Ten's plans which seems quite possible atm. I wont probably see Shin as a great general or even a general if he will always just do what Ten, Kyoukai or someone else comes up with. 

He really needs to show his instinctual abilities sooner rather than later, hopefully beat Gaimou and his lieutenant with it if Qin does win this.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 25, 2014)

Yeah defeating Gaimou's army isn't a problem for me. It seems like Gaimou isn't an evil person so he would probably retreat if his men were going to die. And we already know he's one dimensional. Plus, I think the point I made about the Ouki reference is important. Hara said that for a reason, and Shin needs to learn that you can't just rely on killing the enemy commander in a 1 on 1 duel to defeat an enemy. The only thing I'd find to be BS, would be for Shin to defeat Gaimou in combat. 

Winning due to instincts also allows Gaimou to keep his threat level high. We'll have it on our minds that Gaimou is > Shin in combat, so with a more determined Gaimou who knows not to underestimate Shin, we have a potential great rematch. 

Ouhon though...IDK how the hell he can beat Shihaku who it seems has no clear weakness to exploit.


----------



## Coruscation (Jun 25, 2014)

Shihaku's only possible weaknesss would be his total lack of emotion. A lot of the time, that's a strength, as he'll never get distracted and always focus coldly on the goal. But there may come a point where it ends up backfiring on him. It looked to me like Ouhon started to understand a bit more of Shihaku's character in the last moments of their duel:


*Spoiler*: __ 







If there's anything he may have gained and learned from staying behind, that would be it. I don't know how he would try to exploit something like that in a military sense. But say that, for example, Ouhon is able to put a measure of "irrational" faith in that his allies will succeed, despite terrible odds, and goes through with a plan that will only work if Shin also pulls through. Shihaku who is basically emotionally dead and doesn't have such things in his life anymore fails entirely to predict the possibility of this unlikely outcome for that reason.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 25, 2014)

That panel has me worried, that Shihaku would be one of those characters which are looking for death on the battlefield.
I just hope he won't allow himself to be killed at the end, just so he could reunite with his lover in death.


----------



## haegar (Jun 25, 2014)

while it might fit his backstory, if Ouhon wins due to Shihaku being depicted as suicidal I'll call asspull :/

to me it seems as if Shihaku is in a trance when fighting, and as long as he is in that mental state he's flawless. Maybe Ouhon will somehow manage to break his flow, but I got no clue whatsoever how...


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jun 26, 2014)

No way Ouhon wins like that. That would be awful. But to be honest I don't think there will be a scenario in which we will approve of Ouhon winning. He's just too weak right now. if he somehow surpasses Shihaku's spear....asspull...Shihaku has suicidal thoughts....asspull. 

I'm just starting to prepare myself for the typical shounen crap where the kids pull off a win somehow. Especially after Tou's and Shin's big speaches in the latest chapters.


----------



## Beckman (Jun 26, 2014)

Bout time there was a new nice Tou panel


----------



## Pesky Bug (Jun 26, 2014)

I haven't posted like... at all ever since TF caught up to the manga. Wanted to say I loved the characters discussing this topic between each other. Tou, even though has remained in Ouki's shadow is already willing to step aside and pave a path for the new generation. And Shin kinda sounded not like himself; for a second there he seemed to talk about Qin as a state showing off, rather than he himself showing off. But then Kyokai.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 26, 2014)

I hope it doesn't become a feature that Tou becomes underrated just because he doesn't hog the spotlight. I'd like to see him take on elites, rather than watching him defeat the 3rd or 4th strongest Generals from the other state without much difficulty.


----------



## haegar (Jun 26, 2014)

im not worried about tou at all and I still dont see him having brains concerned with the future of qin being equal to him being mistreated/underrated ...


----------



## Kanki (Jun 26, 2014)

haegar said:


> im not worried about tou at all and I still dont see him having brains concerned with the future of qin being equal to him being mistreated/underrated ...



Nah what I mean is, the less individual accomplishments he gains, the lower his rank will be, meaning he has less chance of taking on the elites from other states.

It's not a problem yet - he's going to challenge Gohoumei/Reiou which is fine anyway. But I wouldn't want him to be the one who always clashes with the the Rinbukun equivalent.

Plus, Tou being the bridge for the next generation means he's likely to die


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 26, 2014)

As long as he goes down epicly.


----------



## haegar (Jun 26, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Nah what I mean is, the less individual accomplishments he gains, the lower his rank will be, meaning he has less chance of taking on the elites from other states.



don't rly see the logic behind that, it would  be true if currently Qin had enough generals to be able to afford NOT making best use of Tou, but we aren't there yet by far.

I admit that the character development *could* end with self-sacrifice, but then again, if you look back, that isn't exactly Tou's style either, is it? I mean revisit the last big battle, he does totally know he IS greatgeneneral material, it just so happens he treats that fact differently from all other generals we've seen. And anyways, he is, first and foremost, a very pragmatic tactician. would he maybe die for Shin/Ouhon/Mouten if he was 100% sure that the unification endeavour will fail without them and succeed if they live? maybe, yes. BUT, again, we aren't even close to that yet, lets face it, Tou knows the kids are pretty darn good and have room to grow, but he also knows as clearly how much of an asset he is himself. He ain't stupid....


----------



## haegar (Jun 26, 2014)

forgot half the stuff I wanted to write but folks told me not to edit so pardon the douplepost...

as for the third battle day, I wonder if there is any chance of Tou being able to lead a small elite troup to where Ouhon is. Ouhon coming up with the winning plan, and Tou being the one to bring down Shihaku would sorta still work in terms of making the youth shine, at least if the endresult of ripping Gohoumei a new one works out.

Shin could  get props for martial skill if he wins his fight, Ouhon for tactics and Tou for wasting the most badass firedragon - everybody happy.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 26, 2014)

haegar said:


> don't rly see the logic behind that, it would  be true if currently Qin had enough generals to be able to afford NOT making best use of Tou, but we aren't there yet by far.



Yeah I know, but it seems like Kanki, Ousen and Tou are all fighting it out for recognition atm. Logically whoever is ranked higher has more chance of being commander in chief meaning he'd take on the higher ranked Generals of other states.



> I admit that the character development *could* end with self-sacrifice, but then again, if you look back, that isn't exactly Tou's style either, is it? I mean revisit the last big battle, he does totally know he IS greatgeneneral material, it just so happens he treats that fact differently from all other generals we've seen. And anyways, he is, first and foremost, a very pragmatic tactician. would he maybe die for Shin/Ouhon/Mouten if he was 100% sure that the unification endeavour will fail without them and succeed if they live? maybe, yes. BUT, again, we aren't even close to that yet, lets face it, Tou knows the kids are pretty darn good and have room to grow, but he also knows as clearly how much of an asset he is himself. He ain't stupid....



Tou


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 26, 2014)

haegar, you misunderstand. You can edit your post, I'd just prefer you NOT edit posts that are above half the posts on the page.


----------



## haegar (Jun 26, 2014)

I dont really see that infight either?! Ouki died, Mogou died Chotou died, lots of room for new upstarts. Also, by now, the generals should all be well aware of the kings ambition, and those that do think ahead in terms  of career should have realized that in such a kingdom there ought to be room for many generals to shine?

Though I do concede that it is noteworthy how Mogou, on his deathbed, urged the youngsters to work together. Guess it is conceivable that the way Kanki/Ousen/Mobou handle things could be made to stand in contrast to that?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 26, 2014)

I don't mean fighting in the literal sense. I just meant that there seems to be a race between Ousen, Moubu and Kanki. Moubu is number 1, but there is no number 2.


----------



## haegar (Jun 26, 2014)

I meant 'infighting' in the exact smae way as you do. We havent seen much of Ousen and Kanki in the late chapters in terms of them voicing the need to gain prominence, and Tou has just now denounced such ambitions for good I would think.

What we DO hear, is EVERYBODY ELSE expecting them to act in such a way. And we also had that phase after the coalition war where it was stated that it's an important chance for all military folks to rack up accomplishments. I'm not sure if that applies to people that already ARE generals though. look at it like this: None of the established guys has to do anything new, they just need to keep going as is and NOT fuck up, and unless the young generation overtakes them hell fast, people like Kanki, and even Ousen, will eventually become GG, because for the time being there is nobody else.

btw, much looking forward to Ousen's time, gonna be interesting to see what becomes of him and his ambitions. Knwoing Sei he's gonna try to enlist him at some point, if that is wise... we shall see...


----------



## Kanki (Jun 26, 2014)

But Kanki likes to be in on the action. He gets bored, and whether he wants to or not, taking the head of an enemy is great for your record. Kanki wouldn't step aside for Shin or Ouhon to succeed, so he'd get more acclaim than Tou. 

Ousen is trying to create a kingdom so is basically getting stronger and stronger, allowing him to win more wars and gain more credit.


----------



## Beckman (Jun 26, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Plus, Tou being the bridge for the next generation means he's likely to die



Kanki, when does a man die? When he is hit by an arrow? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!


----------



## Kanki (Jun 26, 2014)

Benn Beckman said:


> Kanki, when does a man die? When he is hit by an arrow? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!



Who're you talkin' about?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 28, 2014)

We are getting a raw today, right?

This might be the first time I've found Kingdom on the second page...


----------



## haegar (Jun 28, 2014)

are we, are we are we?!?!?! onegaishimasu!!! man I wouldnt have checked till tomorrow and now im all giddy for raw... there better rly be one


----------



## haegar (Jun 28, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



lol. page 1 does not bode well for those not in favor of nakama 




393 RAW

*reading*

well, looking at pictures I mean ...


----------



## haegar (Jun 28, 2014)

looks like a decent chapter but will have to wait for big action yet another week I guess


*Spoiler*: _RAW393_ 



 btw, sorta looks like the old fart is just leaning back and enjoying watching how Shin slashes his way through to him - wonder if that's gonna bite him in the ass eventually. His 2nd in command sure looks worried again - though then again he always looks like a fish/lobster crossover, kinda hard to gauge his expression


----------



## Russel (Jun 28, 2014)

I guess most ppl read the crappy translation from magajoy. 
It kinda sucks that a qualty manga like Kingdom cant be discussed in a proper way. Anyways enjoy the discussions. 
I was glad to read ch392, it shows Tao thinks about the big picture.


----------



## haegar (Jun 28, 2014)

I rly doubt that, would think most people read TF, those that read the raw or speed trans that I know of all also read TF laters cause quality...


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 28, 2014)

Russel said:


> I was glad to read ch392, it shows *Tao* thinks about the big picture.





Usually I ignore mistakes like that, since kingdom names can be annoying, but he is in your freakin avi.


----------



## Beckman (Jun 28, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Usually I ignore mistakes like that, since kingdom names can be annoying, but he is in your freakin avi.



Misspelling Tow should be a crime.


----------



## Sphyer (Jun 28, 2014)

Russel said:


> I guess most ppl read the crappy translation from magajoy.
> It kinda sucks that a qualty manga like Kingdom cant be discussed in a proper way. Anyways enjoy the discussions.
> I was glad to read ch392, it shows Tao thinks about the big picture.





Benn Beckman said:


> Misspelling Tow should be a crime.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 29, 2014)

Kingdom 393 is out on MJ


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 29, 2014)

Hmm, it certainly is looking like they are going to duel again...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 29, 2014)

This entire arc just makes no sense to me strategically. I'll have to do a final analysis (part 2) of this arc when it's finished, but I don't understand how any of this is even possible. 

-Gohoumei army should have 10x the soldiers.
-As far as I know, the reserve and Gohoumei's army remain untouched.
-Ouhon will blast through Shihaku and the reserve army by noon.
-Shin has already reached Gaimou and I don't know whether the reserve army has been breached already or not.
-Hara has usually been very descriptive, detailed, and reasonable when it came to strategy and its application, but this arc looks incredibly sloppy and filled with holes. smh


----------



## haegar (Jun 29, 2014)

have a moe moe kyun for that message, as im 24ed thats all ya get 

edit: the chap being out I mean that is ...

anyways, yeah looks like a duel but I sense a trap by Ten. I wonder if the plan is really to charge in at Gaimou frontally. At least the right flank under Kyokai should try to circle around and hit the elite guards from their flank to open up a path for shin? Unless the goal  here is to set him up as having a breaching power similar to Mobou, which at this point would be too soon imho.

That being said, thx to her capture Ten seems to have a grasp of both Gaimou and his 2nd, thus one might hope she takes into account not only Gaimou being like Shin, but also the 2nd in command being sorta to Gaimou like she is to Shin, adding tactics in order to protect the boss, thus the hope she has some ace up her sleave other than frontal charge...


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 29, 2014)

So Gaimou kills Shin, and Kyoukai becomes the main charcter right?


----------



## haegar (Jun 29, 2014)

if trolling not forcefull enough, if joking too weak. try again


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 29, 2014)

haegar said:


> if trolling not forcefull enough, if joking too weak. try again



Is their a problem with shin dieing besides lol main character and lol history.

pretty Sure most people like Kyoukai more.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 29, 2014)

I don't understand how Qin can win at all 

This whole arc seems so rushed and weird. Hopefully it'll come together at the end.


----------



## haegar (Jun 29, 2014)

which is why I say ten gotta pull something, rushing gaimou headon is just. well, shin can do it 1on1 cause meh, but for his whole army to do the same? 

and anyways, what's this "this is not only shins fight against gaimou but also mine against his lieutenant"

If this is Ten's battle to win and her tactic is "this time we do brute force" it'll be a pretty poor accomplishment for her.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 29, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Is their a problem with shin dieing besides lol main character and lol history.
> 
> pretty Sure most people like Kyoukai more.



Gave me an idea for the next poll.

Which Kingdom up-and-comer is your favourite?

Shin
Mouten
Ouhon
Ten
Kyoukai
Futei
Kouyoku
Hakurei
Kaine

Am I missing anyone? You guys want anyone removed from the list?


----------



## haegar (Jun 29, 2014)

Futei, he's a dick


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> This entire arc just makes no sense to me strategically. I'll have to do a final analysis (part 2) of this arc when it's finished, but I don't understand how any of this is even possible.
> 
> -Gohoumei army should have 10x the soldiers.
> -As far as I know, the reserve and Gohoumei's army remain untouched.
> ...



Kingdom is a very flawed but fun series. 
Just don't think about it very hard because if you try and bring up genuine faults with the manga then the fanbase (which is just made up of Naruto fans who want something edgier) will throw tantrums at you.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 29, 2014)

Rica_Patin said:


> Kingdom is a very flawed but fun series.
> Just don't think about it very hard because if you try and bring up genuine faults with the manga then the fanbase (which is just made up of Naruto fans who want something edgier) will throw tantrums at you.



It isn't flawed. Other than this instance, I'd like you to point out where (in the manga) you've seen instances Kingdom being flawed. If you can't, which is most likely the case, be quiet and return to dry humping HxH.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone know a tantrum here. Most of the posters here are quality posters. If you've bothered to read any of the debates held here, you'd have realized the amount of detail, rational, and analysis that goes into them. So the only thing I can assume is that you either didn't read any of them or you couldn't keep up - I'mma guess it's the latter.


----------



## haegar (Jun 29, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Is their a problem with shin dieing besides lol main character and lol history.
> 
> pretty Sure most people like Kyoukai more.





Moe-058 said:


> the amount of detail, rational, and analysis that goes into them



sry couldnt keep myself from having that stand next to each other 

regardless, usually nice discussion here which I enjoy to read.


----------



## Stevenh1990 (Jun 29, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Is their a problem with shin dieing besides lol main character and lol history.
> 
> pretty Sure most people like Kyoukai more.



We already had a poll on the the most like character with shin being in 2nd place, Ouki or Tou beng 1st and kyoukai being somewhere in the middle.


----------



## Beckman (Jun 29, 2014)

haegar said:


> which is why I say ten gotta pull something, rushing gaimou headon is just. well, shin can do it 1on1 cause meh, but for his whole army to do the same?
> 
> and anyways, what's this "this is not only shins fight against gaimou but also mine against his lieutenant"
> 
> If this is Ten's battle to win and her tactic is "this time we do brute force" it'll be a pretty poor accomplishment for her.



I think Ten will have read Weis trap and use it against them by making it seem like Shin is falling for it and by such throwing a bait of their own. This would put Shin in a dangerous situation, which is what caused the protests at the trategy meeting.



Stevenh1990 said:


> We already had a poll on the the most like character with shin being in 2nd place, Ouki or Tou beng 1st and kyoukai being somewhere in the middle.



That just shows more people have Shin as their favorite character, it doesn't mean that the majority prefer Shin over Kyokai.


----------



## haegar (Jun 29, 2014)

shin bait sounds legit. perfect job for him


----------



## Morglay (Jun 29, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Gave me an idea for the next poll.
> 
> Which Kingdom up-and-comer is your favourite?
> 
> ...



Remove everyone but Futei as that is the only correct answer.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 29, 2014)

Morglay said:


> Remove everyone but Futei as that is the only correct answer.



And I almost forgot to include him.


----------



## Rica_Patin (Jun 29, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> It isn't flawed. Other than this instance, I'd like you to point out where (in the manga) you've seen instances Kingdom being flawed. If you can't, which is most likely the case, be quiet and return to dry humping HxH.
> 
> I don't think I've ever seen anyone know a tantrum here. Most of the posters here are quality posters. If you've bothered to read any of the debates held here, you'd have realized the amount of detail, rational, and analysis that goes into them. So the only thing I can assume is that you either didn't read any of them or you couldn't keep up - I'mma guess it's the latter.



Immense repetition and zero character development for Shin.
If you don't want to see it then it's fine, but the flaws are there, and despite my enjoyment of the series, I can see them.


----------



## Lezu (Jun 29, 2014)

Not this fucking fool again.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 29, 2014)

Rica_Patin said:


> Immense repetition and zero character development for Shin.



Repetition? This is a manga about war. What exactly did you expect? Or are you referring to something else?

Shin's character development has slowed down quite a bit, but saying it is zero says a lot about how little you understand/know of this manga.

Also, are you saying that this is the reason why you believe Kingdom is flawed?



Rica_Patin said:


> If you don't want to see it then it's fine, but until you are at my level film-wise, don't even attempt to try and talk down to me.



At your level... film-wise? What the fuck does your knowledge about films and your implied "applicable analytical skills" have anything to do with this manga?

Also, until you are at my level Halo-wise, don't even attempt to try and talk down to me either. See, I can do it as well.

How do you plan for people to take this statement seriously:



Rica_Patin said:


> If you don't want to see it then it's fine, but until you are at my level film-wise, don't even attempt to try and talk down to me.



When you just said this:



Rica_Patin said:


> Immense repetition and zero character development for Shin.





Get out of here.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 29, 2014)

Rica if you continue to spout your nonsense I'll be forced to ensure you suffer another emotional meltdown.

Is that what you want?


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 29, 2014)

Don't talk about HiatusxHiatus.
It will only make him rave on and on.
This will reduce the quality and high standard of this thread.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 29, 2014)

Lezu said:


> Not this fucking fool again.



Wait until he bumps his threads filled with him talking to himself 

I think we're all jumping the gun.  I highly doubt it's going to be a duel between Shin and Gaimou again - as others have pointed out.  Honestly, considering the dangerous situation it appears Shin is going to be in, this is a perfect time for Hara to showcase some instincts.  It would be a bonus to see Ten reach a level on par with the strategist of a fire dragon.  

I'm actually pretty pumped for how this battle is going to play out.  The only thing I'm concerned about is how Ouhon is supposed to go through Shihaku.  I mean.. no fucking way.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jun 30, 2014)

Chapter is our on mangabird. Good translation... poor quality.

But yeah Gaimou vs Shin 
Ouhon is back in the game... ( guess his wounds are not a big deal )
Ten has her enemy to... strategy and tactis here we come.

No Kyoukai&Shin vs Gaimou....  so well wonder what will happen 



*PS. *Shin will battle Gaimou its no decoy ( Kyoukai said "Don't die Shin" )


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 30, 2014)

New poll


----------



## Muk (Jun 30, 2014)

Ten probably wants to bind Gaimon in a 1v1 battle vs Shin while Kyokai is the actual force that is going to wipe the rest of the Wei army.

At least that's what it sounds like. So front and center is to hold the center force of Gaimon while the left and right flank circle around to finish them off


----------



## haegar (Jun 30, 2014)

as for poll: voted *Shin* outa pure spite 

IF I had multiple choices I would sorta root equally for 
*1)Shin, Kyokai, Mouten* as first rank, and then next for 
*2) Kaine and Ten*  as second rank. If

*3) Heki-bro* gets less boring I *might* root for him, *a little bit*

as for people I dont root for,
unless *Ouhon *grows some manners and also has a falling out with his dad sooner rather than later, he can go sit on his own spear for all I care. 
*Futei* could be impaled further down on the spear Ouhon is sitting on, ideally 

btw Heki didnt make the list I notice, I kinda see him as young generation too? he's like shin's senior by 5-8 years maybe?


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

Muk said:


> Ten probably wants to bind Gaimon in a 1v1 battle vs Shin while Kyokai is the actual force that is going to wipe the rest of the Wei army.
> 
> At least that's what it sounds like. So front and center is to hold the center force of Gaimon while the left and right flank circle around to finish them off



That could work. As long as Gaimou doesn't physically lose a battle. Although the numbers still don't add up.

Isn't it 100k vs 20k?


----------



## haegar (Jun 30, 2014)

I thought it was like 20k vs 4k ?

which is the same odds actually lol


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

I mean overall. I think each of the Fire Dragons have 20k whilst Gohoumei has 40k.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jun 30, 2014)

Glory to the Turnip
This chapter

So I was right about Junyou being an incredible strategist.
There were some doubts about that before, when people were going crazy with the tier placements.

Not sure, if I like the direction this is going with Shin fighting Gaimou again.
Hopefully  nakama/weight power won't lead to some bullshit, where Shin beats him.


----------



## haegar (Jun 30, 2014)

I think overall 100k is acurate? but does Tou including the 3 smaller armies rly only number 20k?

Shin 5k (4k now)
Ouhon 5k (maybe only 3k now, was harsh?)
Rokuomi - dunno but should have 5k too prly? (still at 5k was lazying around)

so thats 15... Tou gotta have more than 5k with him right? 0.o


----------



## Snoozles (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't think the plan is for Shin to win. He just has to stall long enough for Kyoukai and Duke Hyou's units to break through and reach Gouhoumei. I bet Ouhon came up with a similar plan where Kanjou goes through.

If the plan was to blow through Gaimou's HQ than Duke Hyou's men would be with Xin because they have the most power in the Hi Xin Unit.

That's a lot better than the Wei Fire Dragons falling here, when they have 4x the numerical advantage.

This way both Shin and Kyoukai get to shine.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Glory to the Turnip
> This chapter
> 
> So I was right about Junyou being an incredible strategist.
> ...



'Incredible' might be an overstatement at this point. He's clearly very good, but he is 'only' up against Ten. He's also massively important to Gaimou's army because the latter isn't exactly intelligent, though importance doesn't equal incredible.

Interesting how both Reiou and Gaimou seem to have a lieutenant who cover their weakness, whilst Shihaku doesn't.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

I'd have to go back and look, but I thought it was:

Tou: 20k
Shin: 5k
Ouhon: 5k

No idea about Rukuomi or Kanou. 



Snoozles said:


> I don't think the plan is for Shin to win. He just has to stall long enough for Kyoukai and Duke Hyou's units to break through and reach Gouhoumei. I bet Ouhon came up with a similar plan where Kanjou goes through.
> 
> If the plan was to blow through Gaimou's HQ than Duke Hyou's men would be with Xin because they have the most power in the Hi Xin Unit.
> 
> ...



This is a pretty cool theory, actually. If Wei are to lose this war, this is the way I hope it's achieved. Though if Kyoukai + Duke's unit manage to get to Gohoumei, what happens then? I can't see him dying. 

I'm also convinced Kanou will do something. There's got to be a reason Hara has kept him completely off panel. He'll probably end up saving someone.


----------



## Muk (Jun 30, 2014)

if we go with the GO 'chess' board Ouhon is trying to surround the center with 3 pieces and threaten Gohoumei's HQ with a 3 way surround.

If Shin stalls Gaimou's army completely at this front and let's kyoukai with 1k slip into Gohoumei's HQ that would be enough of a threat if 3 armies were to surround them.

Rokuoumi probably is able to punch through with all 5k intact. Not sure how many Ouhon would be able to threat after getting passed his firedragon, but he'd probably also manage 1k troops.

With a 7k surround his HQ should be takeable/threatened for a retreat.


----------



## haegar (Jun 30, 2014)

the thing is, even if they were to kill gohoumei, any remaining fire dragon ought to be capable or ralying the remainder of the Wei forces if he so wished? so I rly think for a full win here we need to have em all beat or all draw back?

darn the more I think about this battle the less of a clue I have how it might go. maybe its gonna turn into something surprisingly awesome and awesomly surprising after all


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't think Ouhon is getting past Shihaku, if Shin doesn't get past Gaimou. I can see what others have said though. 

- Shin + Ouhon stalling Gaimou/Shihaku. The clashes are technically a draw, but the two youngsters are 'hanging on' just long enough. So we know they're still weaker than those two, but all of China will hear of these two youngsters holding the two Fire Dragons.

- Whilst that's happening, Tou manages to keep Reiou and Ranbihaku. 

- Kanjou, Kyoukai, Rukuomi break through and surround Gohoumei. They tell him he has two choices: call on Gaimou/Shihaku/Reiou to retreat and for Wei to concede the war, or they'll kill him. 

I'm not sure how in-character that is for Gohoumei though. Remember as well that Renpa was exiled from Wei for losing Sanyou, and Gohoumei seems like the type to put Wei winning the war above his life.


----------



## Russel (Jun 30, 2014)

It's hard to predict an outcome. I doubt Qin will lose due to the fact Tou stated that the new generation has to prove themselves this battle. 
But the numbers are seriously in their disadvantage as are the opponents muscles. Not sure if it is the 1 chapter a week thing or this arc is just weaker. Even with Tou leading this war, it isn't as good as the previous arcs.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 30, 2014)

Russel said:


> It's hard to predict an outcome. I doubt Qin will lose due to the fact Tou stated that the new generation has to prove themselves this battle.
> But the numbers are seriously in their disadvantage as are the opponents muscles. Not sure if it is the 1 chapter a week thing or this arc is just weaker. Even with Tou leading this war, it isn't as good as the previous arcs.



Its a shorter arc, I doubt it was meant to be on the level as some of the bigger arcs of before.


----------



## Russel (Jun 30, 2014)

I hope it is better when i reread the arc in 1 flow. I miss the goosebump moment, like their first war in the Duke's army. Damn I felt the tension of the rookies.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 30, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I mean overall. I think each of the Fire Dragons have 20k whilst Gohoumei has 40k.





haegar said:


> I think overall 100k is acurate? but does Tou including the 3 smaller armies rly only number 20k?
> 
> Shin 5k (4k now)
> Ouhon 5k (maybe only 3k now, was harsh?)
> ...






Kanki Is God said:


> I'd have to go back and look, but I thought it was:
> 
> Tou: 20k
> Shin: 5k
> ...



Qin has roughly 35K +/- 1.9k soldiers while Wei has roughly 140k +/- 7.5k soldiers.


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Okay so let's analyze this battlefield for a second because a lot of things are just off.
> 
> 60k in total from the three Wei Dragons.
> 
> ...








Kanki Is God said:


> - Kanjou, Kyoukai, Rukuomi break through and surround Gohoumei. They tell him he has two choices: call on Gaimou/Shihaku/Reiou to retreat and for Wei to concede the war, or they'll kill him.
> 
> I'm not sure how in-character that is for Gohoumei though. Remember as well that Renpa was exiled from Wei for losing Sanyou, and Gohoumei seems like the type to put Wei winning the war above his life.



The thing is Gohoumei soldiers would still vastly outnumber the soldiers that any of the three could muster up together.



Kanki Is God said:


> Interesting how both Reiou and Gaimou seem to have a lieutenant who cover their weakness, whilst Shihaku doesn't.



Shihaku is the full package. I wonder how old he is.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jun 30, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Shihaku is the full package. I wonder how old he is.




Probably in his mid or late thirties. He was 15 in the flashback when we saw him the first time and became a great general later on, but that looked like 5-10 years and the 14 years on top of that would make him something like 35-40.


----------



## B Rabbit (Jun 30, 2014)

I wonder if In is ever going to be the opposite side of the spectrum, and have a number advantage on someone.


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

Russel said:


> It's hard to predict an outcome. I doubt Qin will lose due to the fact Tou stated that the new generation has to prove themselves this battle.
> But the numbers are seriously in their disadvantage as are the opponents muscles. Not sure if it is the 1 chapter a week thing or this arc is just weaker. Even with Tou leading this war, it isn't as good as the previous arcs.



I think we can all agree that the standard of writing, in terms of arc layout, hasn't been as good as virtually every other arc. But we can't really judge until the end. If Qin get crushed, then there's nothing wrong with the writing, for example.

It's impossible to say whether this arc is as good or bad as 'x' or 'y' right now. It does feel rushed, but then if Shin/Ouhon get defeated, it isn't rushed at all. It's realistic.

So let's wait and see. Damn I wish we had 3 chapters this week lol. All our queries would be answered in no time.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 30, 2014)

Sometimes I wonder if it's a translation fail if the numbers truly come out to 35k vs 140k.  Reason I wonder is because not one character this arc has mentioned such a drastic difference in troops.  Tou and Ten seem to think its feasible to win.  I mean if the "each fire dragon brought 20k of their own troops" was actually "each fire dragon will lead 20k troops" then it would be a more reasonable 35k vs 80k.

Either way, Snobbles just brought the best strategy theory in the last 3 months

+1


----------



## Kanki (Jun 30, 2014)

I would love to email TF to get confirmation on the numbers, tbh.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 30, 2014)

I just don't see how Kanyou can be like "What's General Tou doing? He's not destroying Wei with 35k vs. 140k!?"

and I don't see Shouheikun being like "We'll just watch and wait." with those type of numbers.

Clarification would be nice.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jun 30, 2014)

Ughh, I had the images saved in my album, but I deleted them because I didn't figure I'd need them ever again.

The numbers nearly matched the amount of pieces in 2 separate panels. I don't see it being wrong. I can redo them if you want.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jun 30, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Ughh, I had the images saved in my album, but I deleted them because I didn't figure I'd need them ever again.
> 
> The numbers nearly matched the amount of pieces in 2 separate panels. I don't see it being wrong. I can redo them if you want.



Not doubting you at all Moe.

Doubting the translations though.  

Our only precedence to this kind of number disadvantage would be when Duke's 40k took on Zhao's 120k, but it was understood why there was such a mismatch.  In this case, I don't understand how such a difference would be allowed by Qin?

I don't know, I'd bet the numbers were translated wrong.  Or, this Arc is going to end with something super epic that makes it all feasible with such a number difference.


----------



## Muk (Jul 1, 2014)

if you look at the terrain, the number game doesn't matter as much as in open field combat.

if you think like 300 and how they held that one pass you can also think of it in this scenario. the battle field is not one single open plain

it is hills and many valleys and passes

a more mobile smaller army will have an easier time fighting in those passes vs a big large army

the only benefit a large army has is to be able to reinforce the lost numbers at a pass

another thing is 140k large army is spread thin as hell since gouhoumei is cover all four winds with his army

if it was a direct engagement of 35 vs 140k, then tou would probably have a lot of trouble, but he isn't. he's picking and choosing to engage smaller parts of the army from different angles, as such gouhoumei must keep his army spread out, else one of them could break through to him

as for fighting, gouhoumei is a strategist, not a fighting general. as such he'd run away with his tail behind his legs if someone were to actually be able to surround him


----------



## Kanki (Jul 1, 2014)

Do we have any indication of General age-ranges? 

50's:
Tou

40's:
Moubu
Ousen
Fire Dragons
Ouki-Renmants

30's:
Riboku
Houken
Kanki

20's:
Karin
Gohoumei
Heki


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 1, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Do we have any indication of General age-ranges?
> 
> 50's:
> Tou
> ...



Tou definitely doesn't look like hes in his fifties, more like early to mid 40's. Also I don't think Ouki was even that old, probably in his early 50's or late 40's. I think Renpa is like 10 years older than Ouki, maybe even 15. 

Also I think Shihaku at least is something like 35-40.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 1, 2014)

I put Tou in the 50's just because he was said to be there from the start with Ouki, who was probably about 20 years older than Kyou, who is probably around Moubu's age. I think the difference between Moubu and Ouki was well over a decade, too.

Wasn't Renpa like 60?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 1, 2014)

I think Ouki was like 15 years older than Kyou and Kyou was like 22-25 when she fought Houken and that was like 9 years before Ouki fought Houken in the Zhao war. So....looking at the flashback when Ouki is training with Kyou, Kyou looks like shes around 5-7 years old and Ouki is 16-20 then put 20+9 years on that so I'd assume that Ouki was like 48-52. Think Tou could be around Moubu's age.

And Renpa and Mougou are something like 60-65 and Moubu is Mougou's son so I'd assume there's at least 20-25 years between them. So Moubu would be like 10 years younger than Ouki and Ouki is around 10-15 years younger than Renpa and Mougou.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 1, 2014)

I hope he/she, whoever this anonymous raw provider is, keeps doing what he/she is doing. Hopefully we'll get TF scans that can keep up with MJ.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 1, 2014)

Re-read TF versions, sometimes I wonder why I didn't just wait in the first place.

The gold standard to say the least.


----------



## haegar (Jul 1, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Re-read TF versions, sometimes I wonder why I didn't just wait in the first place.
> 
> The gold standard to say the least.



right. seems more clear now that we are indeed looking at a baiting move from both sides. I'm thinking Shin is supposed to bind Gaimou as long as possible, the objective being survival not winning, and its likely Kyoukai will shave of some of their flank that turns out to be a feint as she will then NOT engage further but try to bypass them to reach Gohoumei

I can only hope that at least some part of her detachment, or the Duke Hyou folks, DO flank Gaimou's guards and hammer them from the side for real, rather than all of them feinting and then moving on to Wei HQ. If Shin is completely on his own, and the complete right wing force presses on he's looking at one interesting day there


----------



## Kanki (Jul 1, 2014)

Will we see some Tou vs Reiou next then? Or is this arc really going to be all about the next-gen?

I am/was really looking forward to seeing what Reiou and Ranbihaku can do. Plus Tou, obviously,


----------



## haegar (Jul 2, 2014)

I think next chapter will go to Ouhon and then maybe we also get to see what the blip is Rokuomi doing, cause so far we havent seen shit about that. I think Tou will come after that, and then we go back to the kids making progress...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 2, 2014)

Ouhon has really grown on me during this arc...like REALLY grown on me...


----------



## Muk (Jul 2, 2014)

which site usually does speed translation again?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 2, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Ouhon has really grown on me during this arc...like REALLY grown on me...



Should be the opposite really.

What has he done so far? 

1. Be a ass hole.
2. Come up with a suicide plan.
3. Proclaim his arrogance and ignorance(defeat shihaku in three moves lmao), while ignoring sound advice because he has daddy issues.
4. Got his ass kicked.

All that being said I dont dislike ouhon, just to me this arc he has just been the subject of my jokes so far.


----------



## Muk (Jul 2, 2014)

i am actually curious as to what Rokuomi would have proposed if had gotten the chance to.

Calling Ousen for reinforcement might have worked, but like Ouhon has pointed out, letting the Zhao back in would be nasty.

Now they are trying to beat them with Ouhon's plan and I wanna see how well this plan of his does xD


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 2, 2014)

Kokokoko....


----------



## Kanki (Jul 2, 2014)

Not sure what Ousen would have done tbh. How big is his army? Because unless it's well over 40k, the same tactics would probably be implemented and Ousen probably wouldn't risk being so outnumbered. 

Kanki would love this war though. It's begging for some guerrilla warfare.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 2, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Should be the opposite really.



Kind of a warped and self-serving way to look at it, DD.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> What has he done so far?
> 
> 1. Be a ass hole.



So what? What is the big deal if he's an asshole? It doesn't interfere with the storyline, or his or anyone else's character progression. We (SHOULD) have a breadth of different characters that fill different niches. Half the characters are broody, cool, look-into-the-sky-all-nonchalant-feel-to-them. As well, by far Ouhon has one of the more interesting backstories and relationship dynamics. He is a product of his relationship with his father. His assery is a by-product of his always serious and tense nature, most likely a result of his desire to distinguish and differentiate from his father. You can't expect him to have Mouten's carefree attitude or another shin copy...



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 2. Come up with a suicide plan.



You mean he was the ONLY individual to come up with a plan FEASIBLE enough to deal with their overwhelming disadvantage. It doesn't matter if it looks like a suicide plan, it was the best plan they had and it was Ouhon, not Tou or any of his vassals, Ten or Kyoukai, that came up with it. You can't expect them to pack up and go home to be court martialled. Don't turn this on Ouhon, blame Qin's War committee.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 3. Proclaim his arrogance and ignorance(defeat Shihaku in three moves lmao), while ignoring sound advice because he has daddy issues.



Yea, he was overconfident and fucked up, not like other characters haven't fucked up in this regard many times more. i.e Shin x100.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 4. Got his ass kicked.



So? When has "getting your ass kicked" speak against a character? Who hasn't had their ass kicked int his manga? He went against prolly the 6-7th most powerful martial fighter. Ouhon isn't even in the top ten, so what if he lost? He should have lost. If Shihaku would have lost, I'd honestly be worrying whether Hara has taken his first step into the shit-tier group with Naruto and the rest of them now that his manga has become more popular.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 2, 2014)

From chapter 292 it comes across as if Tou feels he could have created a great strategy himself, but chose to go with Ouhon rather than think some more.

Ouhon out-thinking Tou feels very strange to me at this stage.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 2, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> From chapter 292 it comes across as if Tou feels he could have created a great strategy himself, but chose to go with Ouhon rather than think some more.
> 
> Ouhon out-thinking Tou feels very strange to me at this stage.



I'm not saying that Ouhon out thought Tou. We all know Tou want's to give the the youngin's their time to shine, but the reason why I said that was so that people don't downplay his plan  once it works because of how they feel about him, like a sore loser. Not many people here hold any positive feelings for Ouhon because of his douchebaggery. The same reason why Minerva gets so much shitflak in the FT subsection.


----------



## Kaneda30 (Jul 2, 2014)

Im thinking Tou has something up his sleeve in the climax of this battle. Something that will either let Qin clinch the victory or at least a stalemate if things get ugly.


----------



## Ichigo (Jul 2, 2014)

I think Tou could have came up with his own plan, just purposely allowed the young guns to show him what they had.

When he had that conversation at night with Rukuomi that was the basically the premise.  He is trying to get this young guns to show all of China what they can do.  What better way then defeating Gou of the Wei?  The fact that each will have to defeat a Fire of the Wei will only enhance this showing.

I think this is the war that gets them finally promoted to General.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 3, 2014)

I shall read tomorrow, but as someone who is drunk let me just say....................



Kanki is mossing from this manga. shambolic. Goheimou could defeat all the other gens....bar maybe Ousen....but Kanki is his worst nightmare.

will respond to the trest tomorrow!!!


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I shall read tomorrow, but as someone who is drunk let me just say....................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 3, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I shall read tomorrow, but as someone who is drunk let me just say....................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## conorgenov (Jul 3, 2014)

KG yer drunk go home 

i'm not sure what kanki would do with this war, i'm sure it would be entertaining though


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 4, 2014)

Think will Ouhon have a similar set up chapter for his upcoming fight vs Shihaku. 

Its looking like this arc will be entirely focused on the younger generation since we hardly got anything from Tou and Rokuomi vs Reiou and Ranbihaku from the first 2 days.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 5, 2014)

Raw's out.
Hopefully that means a chapter tomorrow.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Jul 5, 2014)

Ch.22


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 5, 2014)

Its looking pretty....meh. Shihaku and Gaimou should by no means lose, there's no way that Shin and Ouhon got stronger in a single day. I really hope Hara doesn't pull some asspulls here.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 5, 2014)

Unfortunately, that is what it looks like will happen. I don't see why Hara would "re-setup" another duel if he has no intention of letting them defeat Gaimou and Shihaku respectively. 

uuggghhhh


----------



## Kanki (Jul 5, 2014)

I wouldn't say it's obvious just yet. Not that they're going to win, anyway. Remember Kyoukai and Rukuomi can do things to cause Wei to retreat. 

I love Rukuomi though.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 5, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I wouldn't say it's obvious just yet. Not that they're going to win, anyway. Remember Kyoukai and Rukuomi can do things to cause Wei to retreat.
> 
> I love Rukuomi though.



Win as in defeat Wei or win their respective duels? 

I can't see Hara making BOTH duels another lose or tie again. If he does make it a tie to show how far and fast they've progressed, I'd still call bullshit on that. But let's stop beating a dead horse - we'll get out conclusion within the next month or so.

The one thing I do miss is seeing the arc told from a rational, cohesive, strategical and tactical point. Like where is the focus on the landscapes, 3rd person point of view, progressions? From the way the Wei arc was told, I could draw the entire battlefield.


----------



## Quuon (Jul 5, 2014)

I don't think the plan is for Shin and Ouhon to win.

They're probably just supposed to keep their fire dragon opponents busy while the plan comes to life... I hope.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 5, 2014)

Massive bullshit, if they win.

Also Rokuomi is really being well developed into a badass char.
He will probably be the first to reach his goal.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Massive bullshit, if they win.
> 
> Also Rokuomi is really being well developed into a badass char.
> He will probably be the first to reach his goal.



Rokuomi has always been badass. Remember how he took down one of the elephants on his own? He might not be the strongest character, but he definitely has style.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 5, 2014)

True, but now he is actually being developed.
Before he was badass Ouki retainer number 2.
Now we actually get to see more of his mindset and even that turned out to be badass.

P.S 
I wouldn't mind, if Hara killed off Ouhon and have Kanjou take on the mantle.
He already has my interest, unlike a certain someone.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> True, but now he is actually being developed.
> Before he was badass Ouki retainer number 2.
> Now we actually get to see more of his mindset and even that turned out to be badass.
> 
> ...





I've never found any of Ouki's vassals to be interesting. I dunno, I wish some of them were uniquely individual like the 4HK.


----------



## Veggie (Jul 5, 2014)

I'm still on chapter 392, the new war seems good so far. Ouhon is having a shit time vs Shihaku, I can't believe I'm rooting for this asshole 

This panel though.
 Is time for Shin to cement his status as a future Great General of the Heavens


----------



## Butcher (Jul 5, 2014)

Three chapters away from 300.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 5, 2014)

All of Ouki's remnants are just boss. I wonder if we'll ever get development from Ryukoku? And perhaps more from Kanou. I like how Rukuomi and Tou have contrasting beliefs, which is totally opposite from Ouki/Tou.


----------



## Robin (Jul 5, 2014)

impossible odds 

really wanna see them beat dem fire dragons though


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 5, 2014)

Butcher said:


> Three chapters away from 300.


----------



## haegar (Jul 6, 2014)

right, we should have seen this coming, given THESE numbers, both shin and ouhon ought to win


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 6, 2014)

Turnip Farmers said:
			
		

> We mistranslated Earl Shi as Shihaku in earlier chapters. Makes a lot more sense since he’s called Shi Ei.



Earl Shi...? Shi Ei? May someone explain this to me.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 6, 2014)

Dunno, but  I guess Ei is a rank... Pretty confused now over all the translations. Shihaku seems like a better choice imo.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 6, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Earl Shi...? Shi Ei? May someone explain this to me.





lazorwalrus said:


> Dunno, but  I guess Ei is a rank... Pretty confused now over all the translations. Shihaku seems like a better choice imo.




Its pretty simple if you think about it really.
Shi is the name of the family. 
Haku would be the title. In this case an earl.
Ei must be his real name.

It makes sense, when you remember that his predecessor, that wanted him dead, was also called Shihaku. 
So he is earl Shi Ei of Wei.


----------



## haegar (Jul 6, 2014)

not being able to translate the names myself I got used to Shihaku so Earl Shi sounds weird, though it has some reminiscence of Duke Hyou badassery. For my part, had I first got to know him as Earl Shi, and now it would suddenly be Shihaku, the later would sound weird to me. I dont rly mind. It's nice to know he has a title, and the above explanation makes sense, but dont rly bother me much unless this fact turns out to be important in some way storywise...


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 6, 2014)

Dat Yotanwa.

 and easily kicked him back and was about to connect,

No wonder they fight to the death for her.


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 6, 2014)

TF scan of the latest chapter

 and easily kicked him back and was about to connect,

Seems like they mistranslated Shihaku's name and it's actually Earl Shi.

Well that's gonna take some getting used too.


----------



## haegar (Jul 6, 2014)

@ clandestine, lol, thank you, somehow I hadnt read that one yet, nice


----------



## Kanki (Jul 6, 2014)

What kind of name is Earl Shi?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 6, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> What kind of name is Earl Shi?



Pretty much the same as Duke Hyou.


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 6, 2014)

Yeah, it's just basically like Duke Hyou.

Random quote about it from a TF translator from their comment section.



			
				oshit said:
			
		

> Yes, Haku is Earl which is normally written as two characters 伯爵. Yasuhisa Hara takes a lot of liberties with translating Chinese names into readable Japanese with a large amount of the ruby text not actually making any sense for the pronunciation. In Kingdom, he only uses 伯.
> 
> Technically, Shoubunkun is meant to be Lord Shoubun and is Changwenjun or Lord Changwen in Chinese. Likewise for Shouheikun etc. as the kun/jun translates to Lord.
> 
> ...



His original name was Shi Ei before he took on his current position as the head of his family. I guess people could call him that if they don't fancy Earl Shi.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 7, 2014)

I got caught with a mini-historical *spoiler* the other day (regarding the outcome of a war):


*Spoiler*: __ 



Shin leads an army at one point and gets crushed




I'm actually glad I found it out though. I love it when that kind of thing happens. My money is on either:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Houken/Riboku or Kouen.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 7, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I got caught with a mini-historical *spoiler* the other day (regarding the outcome of a war):
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



dem mini spoilers 

This chapter was hopefully the final setup.  From here on out it's going to be 2 months of pure carnage  

Let's see what the new generation can do.


----------



## convict (Jul 7, 2014)

I really want to see Rokuomi go crazy. Just as much as the other two battles. Of course I am most excited to see Tou drop a deuce on Reiou (whenever you see this cocky little guy he has a nasty smirk on his face) and Ranbihaku, but that can wait. He'll get his time even though he wants to pave the way for the next generation.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 7, 2014)

So much historical stuff I'd like to talk about sometimes lol. I've spent quite a bit of time thinking how will Hara handle various events that are to come. The unification part of Kingdom should be really, really good...


----------



## Kanki (Jul 7, 2014)

I had a 'worst nightmare' situation that I envisaged could happen with the series as a whole - and Shin/Ouhon potentially defeating Gaimou/Earl Shi had got me thinking it could actually happen, so this has come as a major relief 

Yesterday a bunch of people in the OL were talking about reading the wiki for spoilers. I was half tempted to read it myself using the link I used a while ago, but decided not to. 

The 1 chapter a week really doesn't give me enough Kingdom.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 7, 2014)

What? Did you turn into canuckgirl? Stop that.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 7, 2014)

Newest chapter was awesome.

Will they both win their duel or just 1 of them ? 
I'm guessing both since we had alot if hype.

I can also see Tou dying and the strategy dragon will remain alive after this war.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 7, 2014)

convict said:


> I really want to see Rokuomi go crazy. Just as much as the other two battles. Of course I am most excited to see Tou drop a deuce on Reiou (whenever you see this cocky little guy he has a nasty smirk on his face) and Ranbihaku, but that can wait. He'll get his time even though he wants to pave the way for the next generation.



I'm also most excited about Rukuomi. The guy stinks of badass-ness. All the FD's + Ranbihaku excite me equally.

Only two I'm not so excited about is Shin + Ouhon lol.


----------



## haegar (Jul 7, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> The 1 chapter a week really doesn't give me enough Kingdom.



same here, after last one I thought I'd be smart and just re-read the whole thing over this week.

However... it's Monday and I'm already at the end of the coalition war. Somebody cut the week in half please ...


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 8, 2014)

I'm not handling weekend releases very well. 

I think it's time I do a complete read through from the very beginning 

Maybe pick up on clues and hidden messages this time around


----------



## haegar (Jul 8, 2014)

been there, done that  found no major clues. just miss ouki and hyou more, now that I spent time with them again 

p.s. even after re-reading, Futei still a dick


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 8, 2014)

You will definitely pick up things as you reread the manga. Like Shin's instinctual abilities being already hinted in like the first Wei arc.  

I've reread the entire series like 7-8 times now, I always try to find possible foreshadowing for future events and such.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 8, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> You will definitely pick up things as you reread the manga. Like Shin's instinctual abilities being already hinted in like the first Wei arc.
> 
> I've reread the entire series like 7-8 times now, I always try to find possible foreshadowing for future events and such.



LW - the gold standard for the kingdom fandom


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 8, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> You will definitely pick up things as you reread the manga. Like Shin's instinctual abilities being already hinted in like the first Wei arc.
> 
> I've reread the entire series like 7-8 times now, I always try to find possible foreshadowing for future events and such.



Dayum.

Just don't overdue it or you will suffer burn out.
Well, that or turn into an obsessive fan.
(Like rica patin with HxH)


----------



## Kanki (Jul 8, 2014)

It's hard to overrun Kingdom. I could literally read the Kanki/Ousen/Renpa arc a million times. It's just such a great arc.

anyways....can't wait for Rinbihaku to show all us doubters wrong. I'm confident that Hara won't go down the annoying route of Shin/Ouhon beating their rivals just like that.

Ye of little faith!!!!

I'm looking specifically at you, Mou


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 8, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I'm looking specifically at you, Moue



 **


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 9, 2014)

Hmm, I wonder have we had a poll about people's favorite arcs? I'm kinda interested to see just which arc do people think was the best.

My favorite arc is the Zhao war / Bayo arc.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 9, 2014)

Which arcs have we had?

Sanyou was my favorite arc. Introduction of Renpa, Kanki, Ousen, Mouten, Ouhon, Mougou...
So much hype, so many epic panels.

Bayou is probably 2nd. Followed by the Coalition arc.


----------



## Zhen Chan (Jul 9, 2014)

What was the bayo arc


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 9, 2014)

Zhen Chan said:


> What was the bayo arc



Its the Zhao war arc, chapters 107-173. Wiki calls it the battle of Bayou arc.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 9, 2014)

Favourite Kingdom Arc?

Sei Kyou's Rebellion Arc
Duke vs Gokei Campaign Arc
Sei's Escape from Zhao Arc
Kyoukai's Assassination Plot Arc
Shin's Training with Ouki Arc 
Zhao War Arc
Qin-Zhao Alliance Arc
Third Faction Arc
Qin vs Wei Sanyou Campaign Arc
Sanyou Aftermath Arc
Coalition Invasion Arc
Kyou Kai's Revenge Arc
Conspiracy in the Court Arc
Fire Dragons of Wei Arc

I've renamed some of these for simplicity and remembrance sake.

This is the list I'll be sending in. Any changes you guys would like me to do?


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 10, 2014)

Just reading names brings back so much nostalgia already.  Such a boss manga, without question my favorite currently and probably ever.  There is not a single subpar arc in that entire list.

Even this current arc may wrap up so well that we all talk about it possibly breaking into personal top 3s. The climax approaches.


----------



## Lezu (Jul 10, 2014)

Imo this is one of the worst arc's in Kingdom, I really don't see how it could become great, especially if Qin wins this war.


----------



## convict (Jul 10, 2014)

It is absolutely no coincidence that Kingdom has reached its weekly schedule and many people are calling it one of the worst arcs. I foresee no future arc living up to the standard of previous ones in many people's eyes because of having to wait weekly for the manga. And I realize this arc has its flaws (mainly the disbelief at how badly the good side is outnumbered/outgunned but still doing ok), but prematurely calling it the worst...this won't be the first time people do so from here on. I am personally hella excited for what's in store for this arc.


----------



## haegar (Jul 10, 2014)

ya me to. my biggest worry atm is how to make it from weekend to weekend. by the time we get the next chap im too happy to bitch even if it were to be terribru XD

well, I can see the flaws (or some of them) some described, but given where we come from I have trust in the author so far ...


----------



## Kanki (Jul 10, 2014)

convict said:


> It is absolutely no coincidence that Kingdom has reached its weekly schedule and many people are calling it one of the worst arcs. I foresee no future arc living up to the standard of previous ones in many people's eyes because of having to wait weekly for the manga. And I realize this arc has its flaws (mainly the disbelief at how badly the good side is outnumbered/outgunned but still doing ok), but prematurely calling it the worst...this won't be the first time people do so from here on. I am personally hella excited for what's in store for this arc.



Nah, the only issues are;

- The fact that Shin/Ouhon can go from getting raped to winning in a day.
- Hara is much less detailed about the surroundings
- Lack of build up.

If Shin/Ouhon don't win with some nakama moment, then I'll call it a good arc.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 10, 2014)

This arc definitely has potential to go both ways, can't really say yet. Its been one of the most unpredictable arcs thus far for me, I feel like Qin might just win this with some bullshit or some clever strategy, but at the same time I feel like there's no way Qin will win this one. 

I still don't see how possibly would Shin and Ouhon grow strong enough in a day to beat people that were obviously above them earlier. So I'm thinking if Qin will win this it will be with strategy, but even that seems somewhat unlikely.


----------



## haegar (Jul 10, 2014)

well, lack of buildup is something Id like to wait on a bit. we dont know yet how long till this battle reaches a conclusion and what else might happen on the way unexpectedly.


----------



## hehey (Jul 11, 2014)

Shin beating Gaimou would be ok as he he was holding his own against him in their first fight.

Ouhon on the other hand? He could not do shit to Shihaku there's no way in hell he could come back from that asswhoopin and somehow win. Ouhon busted out all of his best moves and Shihaku was like "lol no" and just massacred those guys.

I would be ok with Shin winning but Ouhon no way....


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 11, 2014)

Gaimou was playing around with Shin, enjoying the fight - which speaks quite a bit about the kind of individual he is. Their difference in strength was established when he knocked Shin into another state.

Shihaku is a super serious, get to the point, get it done kind of guy. He's emotionally dead, so unlike Gaimou, he does not wish to entertain the notion of having some fun after being locked up for 14 years.

I'm sure if Gaimou was serious, he too would have trashed Shin just as bad as Shihaku had trashed Ouhon.


----------



## hehey (Jul 11, 2014)

Eh, the fact that Shihaku supposedly wiped the floor with 3 other members of the Wei Fire Dragons singlehandedly implies to me taht hes much better than Gaimou *(if Shin ~ Ouhon and yet Shihaku > Gaimou the implication is that Shin would be closer to Gaimou than Ouhon is to Shihaku....)* Even if Gaimou was holding back, he was still impressed by Shin as shown by his thoughts. So it is still conceivable to bme that Shin could win. Shihaku and Ouhon on the other hand i simply cannot imagine Ouhon being able to do anything at all to him.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 11, 2014)

How does that imply he is much better? As I recall, Gaimou and Reoui sided with Shihaku, but there is no mention of either of them doing battle. Gaimou could have just as easily done the same, but we don't know considering Shihaku did all of the fighting.


----------



## Stannis (Jul 11, 2014)

Lezu said:


> Imo this is one of the worst arc's in Kingdom, I really don't see how it could become great, especially if Qin wins this war.



yeah it's not kingdom's best for sure. this whole wei dragons thing came out of nowhere and ghm is absolutely my least likeable character in kingdom 

ouhon coming up with the plan and tou following it and leaving the fame of this war to the new generation was bleh too 

gaimou is awesome. 
tou is tou. he'll save the arc when his fight comes.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jul 11, 2014)

Gaimou maybe wasn't 100% serious but it's not like Shin got badly hurt or anything and remember Shin has like 3 strength points at his disposal depending on the situation.

Shin beating a dude like Gaimou is perfectly fine. Gaimou is not a top tier in strength and Shin is an absolute monster for his age and a guy who will be the strongest one day. 

Ouhon beating the greatest spear user in history will be a little hard to swallow though.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 11, 2014)

Grumpy Zoro said:


> Gaimou maybe wasn't 100% serious but it's not like Shin got badly hurt or anything



If Gaimou was as serious as Shihaku, I'd imagine Gaimou would have him with life threatening injuries as well. From what I could see, Gaimou was, more or less, enjoying himself. Even then, he still left Shin in a pitiful state. 




> and remember Shin has like 3 strength points at his disposal depending on the situation.



What?



> Shin beating a dude like Gaimou is perfectly fine. Gaimou is not a top tier in strength and Shin is an absolute monster for his age and a guy who will be the strongest one day.



I can't possibly see how it is fine and Gaimou is top tier in strength.



> Ouhon beating the greatest spear user in history will be a little hard to swallow though.



He's Wei's greatest spear user.


----------



## Muk (Jul 11, 2014)

Gaimou only reason why he's survivng against Shin right now is, cause Shin is using a Glaive and hasn't had as much experience with it than with his sword.

Would Shin be able to lock Gaimou into a sword fight, the fight would be over. 

As far as Ouhon goes ... no idea how he'll deal with the dude xD


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jul 11, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> If Gaimou was as serious as Shihaku, I'd imagine Gaimou would have him with life threatening injuries as well. From what I could see, Gaimou was, more or less, enjoying himself. Even then, he still left Shin in a pitiful state.



Meh we've seen stuff like that. Shin will go all white eyes on him and somehow push him back



> What?



I'm talking stat wise. You know how Shin goes beyond the limit blahblah.
Like how he beat Rinko who was 92 if I remember right when he himself was only 89 at that time.



> I can't possibly see how it is fine and Gaimou is top tier in strength.



Alright, I'll give you that. From what we've seen he can be top tier. It's just my gut feeling this is temporary hype, and later it will be revealed that he's a notch or two below the best. 



> He's Wei's greatest spear user.



I see. I thought he was the greatest in all China or something.

I guess in the end I'm fine with Shin being so strong because he's so lacking in other departments and I hope Hara starts focusing on his leadership and tactical skills instead of letting everyone do all the work and Shin only being counted on to beat the strong dude on the opposing side.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 11, 2014)

Grumpy Zoro said:


> I guess in the end I'm fine with Shin being so strong because he's so lacking in other departments and I hope Hara starts focusing on his leadership and tactical skills instead of letting everyone do all the work and Shin only being counted on to beat the strong dude on the opposing side.



That would be my exact problem with Shin the guy who's going to become the greatest general under the heavens. He shouldn't be just muscle that's being directed by others. I really did not enjoy him being completely useless in the war council and leaving all the plans to Ten afterwards.

I'd rather see him not fight Gaimou and beat him through utilizing his instinctual abilities or something.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jul 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> That would be my exact problem with Shin the guy who's going to become the greatest general under the heavens. He shouldn't be just muscle that's being directed by others. I really did not enjoy him being completely useless in the war council and leaving all the plans to Ten afterwards.
> 
> I'd rather see him not fight Gaimou and beat him through utilizing his instinctual abilities or something.



I hope so too. Even if both Ouhon and Shin beat their opponents. In the end what so far impressed me the most is Ouhon coming up with a plan like that and a guy like Tou acknowledging it. I want Shin to also start having an impact like that, and I mean Shin, not Ten coming up with the whole plan and Shin just nodding his way.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 11, 2014)

Yeah, Shin doesn't feel like a general at all to me.
He is pretty much just like Houken. A strong warrior, who lets others do the actual leading.

Also Ouhon winning would be total bullshit.
He was raped on the first day. And now, a day later, he thinks he has a chance?
In fact, the injuries he sustained should make him an even easier opponent for Shi Ei.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 11, 2014)

Shin has shown leadership. Great instincts. Great motivation.



Muk said:


> Gaimou only reason why he's survivng against Shin right now is, cause Shin is using a Glaive and hasn't had as much experience with it than with his sword.
> 
> Would Shin be able to lock Gaimou into a sword fight, the fight would be over.
> 
> As far as Ouhon goes ... no idea how he'll deal with the dude xD



It's more than likely Shin right now is the strongest he's ever been. Doesn't really make sense for him to be weaker now than he was against Houken, for eg. 

Perhaps he peaked at sword-fighting.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 11, 2014)

Shin is a dumb man, so you guys are going have to deal with him being a moubu General cause thats what he is.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 11, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Shin is a dumb man, so you guys are going have to deal with him being a moubu General cause thats what he is.



Well....Shin right now isn't even that. Moubu is actually leading his men on his own and is quite capable as a leader.  

I'm hoping for Shin to become something like Duke Hyou, but right now it looks like hes Ten's own Houken...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well....Shin right now isn't even that. Moubu is actually leading his men on his own and is quite capable as a leader.
> 
> I'm hoping for Shin to become something like Duke Hyou, but right now it looks like hes Ten's own Houken...



Maybe, all along, Shin was nothing more then a setup character for Ten. 

He's Kingdom's Kamina.


----------



## haegar (Jul 11, 2014)

when will we get raw at the earliest? saturday?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 11, 2014)

Yeah the raw will be out tomorrow.


----------



## Saishin (Jul 11, 2014)

Read chap 391

Shiei & Shikika i*c*st love story  Tairoji how you could be so cruel  

About the Kingdom up-and-comer,obviously I root for Shin


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 11, 2014)

Any hope Hara shows us Shihaku revenge slay Tairoji?


----------



## Saishin (Jul 11, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well....Shin right now isn't even that. Moubu is actually leading his men on his own and is quite capable as a leader.
> 
> I'm hoping for Shin to become something like Duke Hyou, but right now it looks like hes *Ten's own Houken...*


Damn you Shin,you better make Ten your own Houken  

But after all Ten is the strategist it's normal that Shin now has to follow her orders  


Moe-058 said:


> Maybe, all along, Shin was nothing more then a setup character for Ten.
> 
> He's Kingdom's Kamina.


And what about Kyoukai


----------



## Saishin (Jul 11, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Any hope Hara shows us Shihaku revenge slay Tairoji?


He didn't show it already? oh well if so let's hope he shows that 

Btw how long the poll is on? because I want to do the next one


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 11, 2014)

Saishin said:


> But after all Ten is the strategist it's normal that Shin now has to follow her orders



Its normal for him to utilize her strategies, but its not normal for him to have like no input whatsoever when these plans are being made. And if he just follows Ten's strategies forever, he will never be acknowledged as the greatest general under the heavens.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 11, 2014)

Saishin said:


> He didn't show it already? oh well if so let's hope he shows that
> 
> Btw how long the poll is on? because I want to do the next one



If you have an idea for a poll, post it here so everyone has an input.


----------



## Zhen Chan (Jul 11, 2014)

Saishin said:


> And what about Kyoukai


You mean Kittan


----------



## Kanki (Jul 11, 2014)

Kingdom anime OST is out: 

It just needs someone to download them and put them on YT.

edit:

More links I think:


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 11, 2014)

Finally, the wait is over


----------



## Snoozles (Jul 12, 2014)

Moubu isn't an idiot. He is a meathead but the guy comes from a prestigious military family, i.e. he's been thoroughly educated in military tactics. I bet if he lost his arm he'd be capable of reinventing himself as a mediocre but serviceable great general like his father was.

Shin on the other hand... Kyoukai won't be with him forever and he'll be leading even bigger armies in the future so he'll have to round himself out eventually.


----------



## haegar (Jul 12, 2014)

dunno how can still call Moubu idiot after obvious post-ouki changes 

he dont go grow more brain mass outa nowhere, but he did start using it, clearly. if anything, good analogy for shin there 

edit: wait, you said he is NOT. ...just woke up, misread you there, my bad lol. ya. agreed


----------



## Saishin (Jul 12, 2014)

@Kanki is God is that you in the avatar?


----------



## Rai (Jul 12, 2014)

395 RAW:


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 12, 2014)

I'm waiting for TF this time idgaf


----------



## haegar (Jul 12, 2014)

im not, thank you


----------



## haegar (Jul 12, 2014)

*Spoiler*: _raw_ 



not so unexpected really, Ouhon getting his ass handed to him 16/18 pages, then it looks like he's doing some provocation/psycho banter at the end and goading shihaku into larger more aggressive movements - for those who were worried Ouhons gonna win by asspull I think him needing one chapter and about 2 liters of his own blood just to give shihaku one minor scratch on the arm shouldnt be too bad actually? 

I wonder if in the end Ouhon is gonna do something extremely unelegant and atypical for his arrogance: what if the plan actually was Ouhon merely try to weaken him, and then he has his squad just swarm him and take him down or somebody backstab him? ... the result of him analyzing shihaku might actually have been "fuck, i cant do it" but if the plan is to succeed that dude needs to be done in ...

that's actually somethin I could live with fairly well ... and I totally can see that dude Ousen sent having no qualms whatsoever to backstab the enemy general in the middle of an honorable duel


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

Saishin said:


> @Kanki is God is that you in the avatar?



lol no. I lost a bet to RobLucciRapes so he chose my set for a month.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

TF have changed again....Shihaku isn't Earl Shi, bit Shi Ei.


----------



## haegar (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> TF have changed again....Shihaku isn't Earl Shi, bit Shi Ei.





what's this back and forth?!


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> TF have changed again....Shihaku isn't Earl Shi, bit Shi Ei.



That's exactly the same as last time.
I don't get your confusion.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 12, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> That's exactly the same as last time.
> I don't get your confusion.



LOL. We've had this discussion already.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Finally caught up.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 12, 2014)

Ares said:


> Finally caught up.



Alright then. Here are the initiation questions:

List your top 5 fav chars?
Fav arc?
fav duel?
most emotional moment?
What stands out for you?
What don't you like about this manga?


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Alright then. Here are the initiation questions:
> 
> List your top 5 fav chars?
> Fav arc?
> ...



Oh nice, I like these kind of questions. 

My top 5 ATM are:

1.) Ou Ki
2.) Kyou Kai
3.) Mou Ten
4.) Tou
5.) Ri Boku or Shou Hei Kun

My favourite arc has to be either the Battle of Bayou because of Ou Ki or the Coalition Invasion because of how epic it was. 

My favourite duel is either Houken vs. Ou Ki or Mou Bu vs. Kan Mei.

The most emotional moment(s) for me (in no particular order) are:

1.) Ou Ki's death.
2.) Man Goku vs. Shin (more-so the whole story and plot surrounding it).
3.) When Mou Ten went to save Mou Bu, I almost cried when he got cut down. 
4.) Sei's flashback/Shika saving him then dying.
5.) When I thought Ten was going to get raped/defiled.
6.) Kyou Kai's story with Shou and her arc where she finally kills Yuu. 
7.) Sei Kyou's death in general. I felt as if his whole character development was SO well written that when he died talking to Rui and Shin... I couldn't help but get sad.
EDIT: 8.) Oh, Sei rallying the troops up in Sai... Holy fuck. That was so epic it's not even funny.

Hmm, the things that stand out for me are the characters, plot, and connections between said characters. I really love how much emphasis is put on the next generation and the fact that Tou is letting Ou Hon and Shin take the lead in the current arc is actually really cool. It's not often you get to see the current/old generation actually respect and revere the up and comers. 

Also, I love he internal conflict within Qin. I think those make for some of the best arcs and I can't wait for Ryo Fui to get what's coming to him. 

Another thing I find exceptional about Kingdom is it's pacing. Not only does it skip non-important shit (like when it gives a page or two worth of information then moves forward) but also after a huge Campaign how months pass. That's awesome. I wish more mangaka took a page from Hara's book and learned how to progress the story's timeline forward.

I actually can't think of anything that stands out that I dislike about the manga to be honest. I find it phenomenally written and Hara writes it in a way that I get heavily attached to his characters. If I was to say anything I guess it would be that it's battles though epic, aren't as flashy as other manga I read but I don't really care about that because Kingdom has some of the most GAR fights I've ever read in my life.

EDIT: Oh, one thing I fucking hate about Kingdom is the lack of fan art.  People need to be pumping out more fan art, I need to make some avis of Ou Ki, Mou Ten, and Kyou Kai.


----------



## Firo (Jul 12, 2014)

First time posting here..
Wont read the raws and I'll just wait for the translation. Which is weird since I like spoilers.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 12, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Ares said:


> Oh nice, I like these kind of questions.
> 
> My top 5 ATM are:
> 
> ...






Great read. 

@Ares &RH

Post more often here; we are in need of more active posters.



> EDIT: Oh, one thing I fucking hate about Kingdom is the lack of fan art.  People need to be pumping out more fan art, I need to make some avis of Ou Ki, Mou Ten, and Kyou Kai.



Yea, I've noticed that as well.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Great read. Post more often here; we are in need of more active posters.
> 
> Yea, I've noticed that as well.



Thanks. Don't worry about it, now that I've finished I'll be sticking around here. 

Sigh, I've found some stuff but ugh... Nothing high quality. I'm in the process of making a Mou Ten avi though.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 12, 2014)

For the new readers who might now know, keep in mind that Kingdom is a historical manga and its based on real events so be careful not to get spoiled. You can more or less spoil the entire story for yourself by just going to wikipedia.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Yeah, KIG was telling me about that when I first started reading so I've avoided all Chinese historical spoilers.


----------



## Firo (Jul 12, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> For the new readers who might now know, keep in mind that Kingdom is a historical manga and its based on real events so be careful not to get spoiled. You can more or less spoil the entire story for yourself by just going to wikipedia.



I've actually done that already.
Not all of it, but still I know who some characters are based off and whatnot.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

*@Ares*

I can't remember if you were in the convo with Sasuke/KJ the other day, where I mentioned Riboku's one shot. Have you read it? (There's also a Moubu/Shouheikun one shot, which has spoilers. Though you can read the first 20 pages as it's backstory to Moubu/Shouheikun's early friendship).


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

*@Ares/RH*

I can't remember if you were in the convo with Sasuke/KJ the other day, where I mentioned Riboku's one shot. Have you read it? (There's also a Moubu/Shouheikun one shot, which has spoilers. Though you can read the first 20 pages as it's backstory to Moubu/Shouheikun's early friendship).


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> *@Ares*
> 
> I can't remember if you were in the convo with Sasuke/KJ the other day, where I mentioned Riboku's one shot. Have you read it? (There's also a Moubu/Shouheikun one shot, which has spoilers. Though you can read the first 20 pages as it's backstory to Moubu/Shouheikun's early friendship).



Yeah, I saw you mention them but then Sauce went and read the Mou Bu one and said he got rekt with the spoilers so I'm hesitant to read them. 

So only Ri Boku's one-shot isn't a spoiler? If so, link it.


----------



## Firo (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> *@Ares*
> 
> I can't remember if you were in the convo with Sasuke/KJ the other day, where I mentioned Riboku's one shot. Have you read it? (There's also a Moubu/Shouheikun one shot, which has spoilers. Though you can read the first 20 pages as it's backstory to Moubu/Shouheikun's early friendship).



Nah I havent.. Can you link them?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> *@Ares/RH*
> 
> I can't remember if you were in the convo with Sasuke/KJ the other day, where I mentioned Riboku's one shot. Have you read it? (There's also a Moubu/Shouheikun one shot, which has spoilers. Though you can read the first 20 pages as it's backstory to Moubu/Shouheikun's early friendship).



Actually there are spoilers in the Moubu/Shouheikun one even in the first few pages. I wouldn't read it at all if I didn't want to be spoiled.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Actually there are spoilers in the Moubu/Shouheikun one even in the first few pages. I wouldn't read it at all if I didn't want to be spoiled.



I'm not going to touch it period. I just want to read the Ri Boku one.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 12, 2014)

The Riboku one is called Li Mu by Hara Yasuhisa.


----------



## Sasuke (Jul 12, 2014)

here's the riboku one

35.2v2 is up. 

actually made me like him a little as a character despite being a shit


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

Riboku one: No spoilers, so completely safe. Though it's translated with their chinese names, so Riboku = Li Mu. The anime also uses Chinese names, for the record.
35.2v2 is up. 

Moubu/Shouheikun:
Again, with Chinese names. Moubu = Meng Wu.
35.2v2 is up. 
SPOILERS START AFTER PAGE 22

There's one detail in there about Shouheikun which we haven't been told in the manga, so if you do comment on the first 22 pages, spoiler tag it. Obviously if you read the whole thing, then definitely spoiler tag it lol.

As Hara says, this one is separate from the manga, but the relationship between the two is cannon.

@edit

So I just wasted my time lol....


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Riboku one: No spoilers, so completely safe. Though it's translated with their chinese names, so Riboku = Li Mu. The anime also uses Chinese names, for the record.
> 35.2v2 is up.



Thanks.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 12, 2014)

Hmm, Looking at the events of that Riboku oneshot it would seem that even its kind of  a spoiler as its events take place in the future of Kingdom, but it would seem that Hara has changed the timeline with this. 

So I don't think its a spoiler at this point since Kaine has already been introduced and the Xiong Nu thing was done earlier in the Zhao arc with a few pages. Or we will see a changed version of the oneshot in the future and it has been a spoiler all along.

Also the very first pages of the Moubu / Shouheikun oneshot have a huge spoiler....I really wouldn't read it at all if I didn't want to be spoiled lol.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

I wonder if Kaine's friend in that one shot is Futei?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I wonder if Kaine's friend in that one shot is Futei?



Unlikely, Hara has kept the designs for Riboku and Kaine the same, but her friend looks nothing like Futei.


----------



## Saishin (Jul 12, 2014)

I love kidding Kyokai


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Saishin said:


> I love kidding Kyokai



Kyou Kai has become pretty funny since she's back from killing Yuu.


----------



## Firo (Jul 12, 2014)

Rereading the Coalition War Arc.. I'm liking  the State of Chu more and more. A few interesting characters. Kou Yoku's grown on me a bit. I think Ka Rin is one of the better generals and that archer has potential.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

Yeah they're all pretty cool.

Kouyoku and Hakurei are great as they are unique within the 'next gen' guys.
Kanmei was a straight up monster.
Karin is one of the most interesting generals in the series.
Rinbukun was cool for what he was - standard 'strong' General.
Shunshinkun is also interesting.
The Chu king looks badass.
Renpa is...well Renpa.

I love their whole attitude. Sure it's annoying with their arrogance, but I don't care. I like states to be unique.

Plus...there is this Kouen. I'm positive this man will be a monster. I suspect we'll be putting him in the Ouki/Renpa bracket.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

I found Kan Mei to be lack luster in terms of personality and character. Had he not fight Mou Bu or had a fight as epic as he did, I probably wouldn't have even remembered his name to be honest. 

Rinbukun was meh, he was pretty much a "strong" General like you said that is in every arc that's usually meant to hype Qin's opposition. 

Kou and Haku are pretty cool, the former is awesome. I feel as if Haku being an Archer makes him a bit lack luster because he doesn't get as many epic moments as the others who fight CQC do. 

Ka Rin is... She's something else to say the least. I find her attractive, she has her quirks, she's brilliant and I assume she'll be a physical powerhouse. She holds it down for women no doubt. 

Shun Shin Kun I find to be a more patriotic, less intimidating Ri Boku.

I like the Qi King waaay more than the Chu King. The Chu King is alright I guess. His dialogue with Renpa was okay. 

Renpa... Yeah. Renpa's redundant. I mean the dude's been one of the GOATs since he was introduced so no matter who he's allied with he'll be one of the best.

I think Chu is definitely unique in that they're extremely arrogant and nationalistic but some of the characters (like Kan Mei) take it to an extreme that I find distasteful.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

Karin is a 94 in strength, so she's definitely pretty damn good in close combat. She literally 'one-kicked' Kanmei's lieutenant to death for a start. 

I really like Hakurei, though. I love bowman. Kyouen is one of my favorites. The exchange between Mouten &  Hakurei was great. I like diversity, so we have a glaive (Shin), sword (Mouten/Kouyoku/Kyoukai), spear (Ouhon), double sword (Futei), bow (Hakurei).


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Yeah, she was fucking beasting it. I caaan't wait to see her fight. Wouldn't mind a sex scene either. 

Oh don't get me wrong, I do too, but I personally believe that Kou outshines him, especially in comparison to how Mou Ten, Shin, and Ou Hon kind of level each other out, Kou has a more boisterous personality than Haku. I do agree with the diversity though, that is pretty sweet.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 12, 2014)

Hakurei is similar to Mouten in that a large part of his arsenal is his strategy. Kouyoku is probably the most reckless and stupid of all the next generation, so I definitely wouldn't put Hakurei below him overall. 

I don't really know how to rank the new generation except for Kyoukai currently being number 1. Futei is probably at the bottom. The rest are lumped together, IMO. Archer's can be epic - Kyouen was able to do severe damage to Kyou's armies and even caused Renpa trouble before he joined him. HakuRei is said to be the 3rd best bowman in China, too. 

I'm hoping we'll see more of the '10 bows'. So far we've seen 4. I know well before Kingdom began, the state of (in spoiler) was said to have the best arrows, IIRC.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Han




No idea if that's still the case.


----------



## haegar (Jul 12, 2014)

somebody mentioned a summary page at end of current raw, on which reader is that again or was that under the link given above and I missed it?


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 12, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Hakurei is similar to Mouten in that a large part of his arsenal is his strategy. Kouyoku is probably the most reckless and stupid of all the next generation, so I definitely wouldn't put Hakurei below him overall.
> 
> I don't really know how to rank the new generation except for Kyoukai currently being number 1. Futei is probably at the bottom. The rest are lumped together, IMO. Archer's can be epic - Kyouen was able to do severe damage to Kyou's armies and even caused Renpa trouble before he joined him. HakuRei is said to be the 3rd best bowman in China, too.
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about in terms of fighting ability or prowess, I'm just saying that in general I personally view Kou to have the more entertaining personality and more fun to watch in combat. Obviously Haku is a genius, I mean his archery ability is phenomenal, but we haven't really seen him go toe-to-toe with anyone. 

Yeah, I mean you can tell that generally speaking, the M3 from Qin and Haku/Kou are relatively on the same level whereas I felt Fu Tei was bitchified by Shin once Shin calmed down and analyzed how to fight Fu Tei properly. 

Yeah same, I generally like archers more than warriors in most things, but there's just something about the GAR-on-GAR combat that I prefer in Kingdom.


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 13, 2014)

Has anyone read the raw chapter ? 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Cuz damn Ouhon is getting slaughter... he might take a hand or something but if he wins in this condition im calling BS since he does not have Shin stamina....


----------



## Kanki (Jul 13, 2014)

Seriously tempted to read up on all the history


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Seriously tempted to read up on all the history



Don't do that.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 13, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Seriously tempted to read up on all the history



I would recommend against it, buut I wouldn't mind more people to talk about the history with.

I can still enjoy the manga despite knowing all the future arcs and the most major stuff that happens in them, but I don't know if everyone can do that. Its definitely a different experience knowing everything that's to come than being surprised by everything. 

Like with the first 3 major arcs of Kingdom, I hardly knew anything about them so it was very different from what the current Kingdom feels to me. The further we get into Kingdom the more historical details there will be. The characters and their interaction is still totally new to me so that's cool, but its a bit...meh to know all the future plot points already.

But yeah, you probably don't want to spoil yourself. But if you really need to know something, you can always ask me so you don't have to worry about accidently spoiling yourself lol.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 13, 2014)

I suppose....I won't. Knowing the outcome of every war before hand wouldn't be good. 

Looking back I wish TF just released say, 3 chapters a week instead of 5 (and 7 before that). We'd still have multiple chapters each week.

7 a week was almost too good.


----------



## Lezu (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I suppose....I won't. Knowing the outcome of every war before hand wouldn't be good.
> 
> Looking back I wish TF just released say, 3 chapters a week instead of 5 (and 7 before that). We'd still have multiple chapters each week.
> 
> 7 a week was almost too good.



And yet you would have kept reading mangajoy until they catch up with raws, you wouldn't wait for TF to catch up with it.


----------



## haegar (Jul 14, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



finally found that shity summary on mangabird. meh. rly reads as if Ouhon is going full Shin style must overcome thus will overcome. funny how the chapter without text actually looks realistic. Sure hope there will be some twist and Ouhon not preform miracles... I rly would like it if for once there is no duel and they just gangbang him and hack him to pieces once Ouhon maybe very slightly weakened him. Skiahaku rly only seems to be an empty killing machine at this point, they should treat, fight and kill him as such.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 14, 2014)

Any word from TF ?


----------



## perman07 (Jul 14, 2014)

Ch.163


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 14, 2014)

Some nice fleshing out of Ouhon's motives. Really felt a Shin like atmosphere from him.

After this, I'm sure Ouhon will be defeating Shihaku now in a straight battle.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 14, 2014)

It really will be a bullshit victory, wont it?
I really disliked this chapter, because of it.

Also I greet my fellow princesses.
WTF are the mods smoking.


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 14, 2014)

I'm pretty much expecting something like Houken vs Shin where he'll be able to use his skill/potential and determination to overcome the odds. The only difference is that unlike Houken, Earl Shi isn't nerfed in this fight.

I was bothered by that actually happening in this fight at first but I really don't mind that much anymore as long as it's done well enough that it doesn't leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Ouhon's already a prodigy whose mastered the spear since a very young age so him learning how to overcome opponents after getting experience in fighting them isn't really that hard to swallow for me.  Especially when Earl Shi's fighting style is more destructive and overpowering on the surface but I'd expect Ouhon's accurate movements and strikes to be able to secure a victory when pushed at the absolute limit along with a few other factors. That's really how I see this boiling down (or at least how I'd be "satisfied" with the result".

Guess it's only a matter of time to see how Hara will deliver this.


----------



## haegar (Jul 14, 2014)

well fuck. ok im all with you on the *it'll turn into asspull* which would be retconning Ouhon's precision winning over Shihaku's strength in the end for instance.

I still hope we have somebody backstab him, but I cant see one of Ouhon's retainers doing this after that speech. fuckin do or die indeed eh :/


----------



## Edward Newgate (Jul 14, 2014)

Nice development on Ouhon's character.

But I would be disappointed if he wins in a not satisfying way.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 14, 2014)

I do like the art in this fight, but that's about it so far. I mean luck does happen and there are times when the weaker guy manages to get the right hit in, but Hara will have to portray this fight very well if he wants this to be a good fight.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 14, 2014)

This chapter names the Earl as potentially the best spear user in China. 
Even if Ouhon specializes in accuracy, it shouldn't effect the battle against a true grandmaster to a noticeable extent.
Or are we to believe Ouhon has become the strongest in China, when it comes to the spear?


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 14, 2014)

Considering the amount of spear users we've seen, it wouldn't be surprising if Ouhon was a top 10 spear user in China.  I mean Hakurei is the 3rd best bowman in China at basically the same age.

I think Hara understands what's on the line when it comes to Earl Shi vs. Ouhon.  Hara was the one who portrayed Earl Shi to be this basically unstoppable force after all.  Let's just see how this plays out.  

Earl Shi has nothing to live for anymore, which actually hurts him in a true fight to the death.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Tbh I don't think Ouhon is winning this, now.
It's going to be interrupted, either by Kanjou or maybe even Ousen. Ousen helping Ouhon without the latter wanting it will give Hara the chance to show more of the relationship.

Tbh this will actually be a great fight if Ouhon doesn't win.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 14, 2014)

Hara will have ascended beyond the heavens if Ouhon doesn't end up winning this fight


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

I'm going to first wait and see HOW Ouhon gets a win/loss before passing any further judgement. The art for this chapter was awesome.

Really glad Ouhon has gotten some development. It has been long overdue.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Tbh I don't think Ouhon is winning this, now.
> It's going to be interrupted, either by Kanjou or maybe even Ousen. Ousen helping Ouhon without the latter wanting it will give Hara the chance to show more of the relationship.
> 
> Tbh this will actually be a great fight if Ouhon doesn't win.


Agreed, Ouhon is in too poor a condition right now. He might score a few more good hits but nothing more. I have to admit, while I never liked Ouhon, I have to respect his resolve to keep fighting.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Tbh I don't think Ouhon is winning this, now.
> It's going to be interrupted, either by Kanjou or maybe even Ousen. Ousen helping Ouhon without the latter wanting it will give Hara the chance to show more of the relationship.
> 
> Tbh this will actually be a great fight if Ouhon doesn't win.



I disagree. 

Shin has pulled off several victories against his opponents while in a comparable state as Ou Hon. I don't think it's fair to write Ou Hon off simply because he has a lot of injuries. I at the very least expect Ou Hon to land a devastating blow on Shi that may not kill him, but leave him in a state comparable to Ou Hon. These guys need to do big things in campaigns like this and if he can't beat a General who specializes in spearmanship such as himself, he should just give up on trying to become a Great General of the Heavens. This arc to me feels like an arc that's mainly supposed to be focused on Ou Hon which I personally believe to be why he'll beat Shi, it wouldn't make sense to me if he didn't, even if he was removed from the rest of the campaign due to his injuries.

This whole campaign pretty much hinges on Shi getting taken down and if anyone but Ou hon does it I'll feel cheapened (unless it's Tou), plus Ou Hon has finally tagged Shi so I'm sure he'll get a second wind just like Shin has many times in the past.


----------



## Lord Genome (Jul 14, 2014)

inb4 ohoun just dies and thats it


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Ares said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Shin has pulled off several victories against his opponents while in a comparable state as Ou Hon. I don't think it's fair to write Ou Hon off simply because he has a lot of injuries. I at the very least expect Ou Hon to land a devastating blow on Shi that may not kill him, but leave him in a state comparable to Ou Hon. These guys need to do big things in campaigns like this and if he can't beat a General who specializes in spearmanship such as himself, he should just give up on trying to become a Great General of the Heavens. This arc to me feels like an arc that's mainly supposed to be focused on Ou Hon which I personally believe to be why he'll beat Shi, it wouldn't make sense to me if he didn't, even if he was removed from the rest of the campaign due to his injuries.
> 
> This whole campaign pretty much hinges on Shi getting taken down and if anyone but Ou hon does it I'll feel cheapened (unless it's Tou), plus Ou Hon has finally tagged Shi so I'm sure he'll get a second wind just like Shin has many times in the past.



Yeah, no doubt Ouhon and Shin need to do big things, but this might just be too big. The Fire Dragons are Wei's ultimate legends - defeating them will mean that Shin and Ouhon are almost legendary before the unification has even begun. 

Plus, when Shin has been in similar positions to this, the whole sub plot has been 100% concentrated on Shin's aim. With Ouhon, Hara has gone out of his way to continually make reference to the Ouhon/Ousen relationship. Having Ousen arrive and essentially 'steal' the victory from Ouhon allows Qin to win, the rest of China to learn of Ouhon fighting a legend, and the relationship between Ousen/Ouhon to be developed further.

The fact that Ouhon has already clashed with Eishi for a considerable amount of time and even managed to injure him is a huge achievement in itself. He'll be known as the spear user who was able to fight with Ei Shi. And then later on in the story, Ouhon can actually defeat Ei Shi and become the unofficial greatest spear user in China. 

My perfect scenario would be something like;

- Shin holds off Gaimou, Kyoukai goes in behind Gaimou, through to Gohoumei. 
- Ousen manages to arrive and forces EiShi to retreat. 
- Gohoumei surrenders.

I say this, just because I still see no purpose in Hara reviving these legendary Wei figures and killing them before we even get to see the Wei unification war. It seems illogical to me. 

We need to be a hell of a lot more positive than we are being lol. We're questioning the arc based on what we're worried might happen.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 14, 2014)

Brilliant character development for Ouhon this chap.  Was nice to see him lose his stoic expression and show his true feelings and describe the weight he's carrying.

Ouhon has been promoted 2 ranks in the favorite character list.

To be honest this chapter has me fired up for how this arc is going to play out.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah, no doubt Ouhon and Shin need to do big things, but this might just be too big. The Fire Dragons are Wei's ultimate legends - defeating them will mean that Shin and Ouhon are almost legendary before the unification has even begun.
> 
> Plus, when Shin has been in similar positions to this, the whole sub plot has been 100% concentrated on Shin's aim. With Ouhon, Hara has gone out of his way to continually make reference to the Ouhon/Ousen relationship. Having Ousen arrive and essentially 'steal' the victory from Ouhon allows Qin to win, the rest of China to learn of Ouhon fighting a legend, and the relationship between Ousen/Ouhon to be developed further.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that's all pretty true which is why at the very least like I said, I'd like Ou Hon to injure him a fair amount, especially now that he's finally tagged him. Maybe it could be something like with Hou Ken where he either leaves because of a higher-ups' command or some shit like that. I guess it's been somewhat foreshadowed that Ou Sen will save the day considering how much Ou Hon doesn't want him to leave his position but man, if Ou Hon doesn't beat Shi, I don't want anyone else to. I'd rather this arc be a tie and Wei heads back home to regroup and then they fight later on than someone kill Shi here and now.



JiraiyaForever said:


> Brilliant character development for Ouhon this chap.  Was nice to see him lose his stoic expression and show his true feelings and describe the weight he's carrying.
> 
> Ouhon has been promoted 2 ranks in the favorite character list.
> 
> To be honest this chapter has me fired up for how this arc is going to play out.



Same, I've always liked Ou Hon, but now that he's starting to get some development and is starting to shine, I'm liking him even more. He's not top 10 yet but I definitely consider him a solid top 15 now.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 14, 2014)

Yeah, if the Wei fire dragons are defeated now, I see no point even showing the future Wei invasion. And introducing more new Wei characters later would feel like BS imo. 

Also I don't think Shin and Ouhon should be on this level quite yet, give them a few more years and then its fine, but not quite yet. They shouldn't be beating legendary great generals when they aren't even generals themselves yet.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Unless J4E's theory of the Wei unification being largely off panelled (like Yan vs Zhao) turns out to be correct


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

See I don't even know about this Chinese history shit so I didn't know they were meant to do something in the future. 

Now that I know this I agree that it's probably a bad idea for them to win this arc. I really like Gai Mou and I definitely see him being a good opponent for Shin in the future, I even think Shin has a bit of respect for him too.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Ares said:


> See I don't even know about this Chinese history shit so I didn't know they were meant to do something in the future.
> 
> Now that I know this I agree that it's probably a bad idea for them to win this arc. I really like Gai Mou and I definitely see him being a good opponent for Shin in the future, I even think Shin has a bit of respect for him too.



lol you didn't realise that Qin are trying to unify China? That's the whole point of the story 

Remember what Riboku said when he posed as Shouheikun at Kanyou? If Qin want to unify China, they need to start with Han, but before doing so they must cripple Wei so they can't send aid to Han, whilst Zhao-Qin were in an alliance so Zhao wouldn't help either.

Kanki + Ousen already took a bunch of Wei Cities. Wouldn't surprise me if, after this arc, we here of Moubu/Kanki/Ousen taking some Zhao territory as well. 

I've always seen Gaimou as being the big fight before Houken.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> lol you didn't realise that Qin are trying to unify China? That's the whole point of the story
> 
> Remember what Riboku said when he posed as Shouheikun at Kanyou? If Qin want to unify China, they need to start with Han, but before doing so they must cripple Wei so they can't send aid to Han, whilst Zhao-Qin were in an alliance so Zhao wouldn't help either.
> 
> ...



Wait you said Wei unification.  I interpreted that as Wei was like rallying their troops and unifying them with someone else, nevermind then.

Yeah, I remember. I just thought you were talking about something else. So isn't Zhao technically no longer in an alliance with them though? 

I can see that. Do you think his first fight with Ou Ki's Glaive will be against Gai Mou or Hou Ken?


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Jul 14, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Yeah, if the Wei fire dragons are defeated now, I see no point even showing the future Wei invasion. And introducing more new Wei characters later would feel like BS imo.
> 
> Also I don't think Shin and Ouhon should be on this level quite yet, give them a few more years and then its fine, but not quite yet. They shouldn't be beating legendary great generals when they aren't even generals themselves yet.


Agreed. As I said before, Ouhon isn't even in the best condition. If he can land one or two more blows, that's fine, but if he is able to beat one of the Fire Dragons now, that would be a horrible move. Shin and Ouhon can always beat the Fire Dragons later on down the road.

@ KIG

Are there any characters that we know are going to die along the way? If so, when do you think they're going to get the ax?


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

KIG spoiler the answer to who's going to die, I don't want to know.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

I know nothing about who's gonna die or survive, thank god. I have theories though. Lazor is the history-man.



Ares said:


> Wait you said Wei unification.  I interpreted that as Wei was like rallying their troops and unifying them with someone else, nevermind then.
> 
> Yeah, I remember. I just thought you were talking about something else. So isn't Zhao technically no longer in an alliance with them though?
> 
> I can see that. Do you think his first fight with Ou Ki's Glaive will be against Gai Mou or Hou Ken?



Yeah, Zhao broke the alliance when they took part in the coalition. I can see Shin killing Houken with Ouki's glaive.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah, Zhao broke the alliance when they took part in the coalition. I can see Shin killing Houken with Ouki's glaive.



Yeah so theoretically while they're shitting on Wei, Ri Boku could plot an attack. I mean unless Mou Bu, Ou Sen, and Kan Ki go there before he strikes first at least.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Ares said:


> Yeah so theoretically while they're shitting on Wei, Ri Boku could plot an attack. I mean unless Mou Bu, Ou Sen, and Kan Ki go there before he strikes first at least.



Yeah, although Riboku has been punished for failing the war, remember. He's not got much say in anything atm.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah, although Riboku has been punished for failing the war, remember. He's not got much say in anything atm.



Yeah but he still has his own army and I'm sure he's plotting something at the very least. I mean Ri Boku isn't the type of guy to let people get away with shit, much less Qin who is pretty much his greatest opposition.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 14, 2014)

Ares said:


> Yeah but he still has his own army and I'm sure he's plotting something at the very least. I mean Ri Boku isn't the type of guy to let people get away with shit, much less Qin who is pretty much his greatest opposition.



Personal armies are 5k max, from what we've seen.

We'll see Riboku and Houken again, but I would bet it won't be until 2016 when they are actually involved.

At the earliest.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jul 14, 2014)

Damn...Don't you dare do it Hara. Ouhon better get not win this

It would be at least a little better if Ouhon wasn't form the same fuckin' state as Shin, because that would give SHin a great rival. Right now qin's side is begining to look a little too good. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/Kyokai...that's a pretty fuckin' scary line up already.

And can we please have a humbling experience for that stupid fucker? If he beats the best spear user in china because his daddy would spank him otherwise...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

I was just thinking of the types of generals. We know there are instinctual, strategical, and hybrids, but then I started to think about how much of a hybrid some of these generals are.

When I thought of Ouki, from what we saw, I'd have said 70/30 instinctual/strategical, while Renpa being again, 30/70 instinctual/strategical. Kyoukai - 70/30 instinctual/strategical, etc. Some of these could be 3:2 ratios (60/40). It seems that hybrids for the most part seem to lead heavily on one side, with the other being a sub ability. What do you guys think? Which ratio's would you set?


----------



## Ichigo (Jul 14, 2014)

Grumpy Zoro said:


> Right now qin's side is begining to look a little too good. Shin/Ouhon/Mouten/Kyokai...that's a pretty fuckin' scary line up already.



You do realize that they have to be that good in order to dominate every other province... so they can unite China... right?

I mean you do realize that is the purpose of this entire thing.  If they aren't strong, it wouldn't even be believable that they could end up conquering enough states to put them on Sei's control.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I was just thinking of the types of generals. We know there are instinctual, strategical, and hybrids, but then I started to think about how much of a hybrid some of these generals are.
> 
> When I thought of Ouki, from what we saw, I'd have said 70/30 instinctual/strategical, while Renpa being again, 30/70 instinctual/strategical. Kyoukai - 70/30 instinctual/strategical, etc. Some of these could be 3:2 ratios (60/40). It seems that hybrids for the most part seem to lead heavily on one side, with the other being a sub ability. What do you guys think? Which ratio's would you set?



I'd say Renpa and Ouki are more balanced than that, they showed both strategical and instinctual feats. More like 40/60 instinctual/strategical for Renpa. And Ouki would be more like 40/60 strategical/instinctual.

Haven't really seen enough from Kyoukai to talk about her instincts.


----------



## convict (Jul 14, 2014)

I would say Kyoukai is more strategical than instinctual. After all, she was the one who drew all the Hi Shin Unit's strategies before Ten, and without her strategies during that interim period they were all headless chickens.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

30-70 and 70-30 is a big difference - I think Renpa and Ouki are much closer to that. In both wars they appeared to adopt a similar approach.

Renpa only being 30% instinctual seems low seeing as he was able to instinctually navigate Mougou's traps, as well as see through (part of?) Ousen's plan. I'd have them both pretty close to 50-50, tbh.


----------



## Tangible (Jul 14, 2014)

Even though Ou Hon might win here, it is still going to seem so fucking ridiculous.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Ichigo said:


> You do realize that they have to be that good in order to dominate every other province... so they can unite China... right?
> 
> I mean you do realize that is the purpose of this entire thing.  If they aren't strong, it wouldn't even be believable that they could end up conquering enough states to put them on Sei's control.



Shin and Ouhon have like 6 huge arcs of growth to come. What's the point in having Shin/Ouhon being superior to Wei's greatest, when we're a good few arcs away from actually seeing the major Qin/Wei war.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Shin and Ouhon have like 6 huge arcs of growth to come. What's the point in having Shin/Ouhon being superior to Wei's greatest, when we're a good few arcs away from actually seeing the major Qin/Wei war.



Wouldn't say that they will have 6 huge arcs of growth, they will reach their prime much faster than that, at least their physical prime.  But yeah, they shouldn't be on the level of Gaimou and Shihaku yet, but somewhere around the time when they are 25 they should be able to win.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I'd say Renpa and Ouki are more balanced than that, they showed both strategical and instinctual feats. More like 40/60 instinctual/strategical for Renpa. And Ouki would be more like 40/60 strategical/instinctual.
> 
> Yea, can see this as well. So what kind of ratio would see a hybrid having? After a certain ratio (80/20), I can't really see that as being a hybrid.
> 
> Haven't really seen enough from Kyoukai to talk about her instincts.



We got to see some of it during the first and second Qin-Wei war.



convict said:


> I would say Kyoukai is more strategical than instinctual. After all, she was the one who drew all the Hi Shin Unit's strategies before Ten, and without her strategies during that interim period they were all headless chickens.



As correct as you are, I've seen more of a focus on Kyoukai's in-war instinctual and tactical feats.



Kanki Is God said:


> 30-70 and 70-30 is a big difference - I think Renpa and Ouki are much closer to that. In both wars they appeared to adopt a similar approach.
> 
> Renpa only being 30% instinctual seems low seeing as he was able to instinctually navigate Mougou's traps, as well as see through (part of?) Ousen's plan. I'd have them both pretty close to 50-50, tbh.



For the most part, the entire Wei's front moves were all strategical to begin with. Renpa's ability to navigate Mougou's trap also stems from the fact that Mougou himself said that Renpa was able to remember his entire layout and move accordingly. I wouldn't call that instinctual alone, more of a mix seeing how he must have  made a plan on how to move through the traps after having memorized them.



The reason why I believed Ouki was 70/30 was because actions in the Battle of Bayou seemed to be almost entirely tactical.

While Renpa's moves were, for the most part, mostly strategical as well. His encounter with Ousen, the way he memorized the layout of Mougou's hill, and the way Rinkou and him were supposed to sandwich Mougou.

To me, they seem mostly to be 70/30. In that Ouki has a general set up, and then moves tactically, while Renpa devics a more complicated  set up and tactically moves to accommodate any anomalies.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> For the most part, the entire Wei's front moves were all strategical to begin with. Renpa's ability to navigate Mougou's trap also stems from the fact that Mougou himself said that Renpa was able to remember his entire layout and move accordingly. I wouldn't call that instinctual alone, more of a mix seeing how he must have  made a plan on how to move through the traps after having memorized them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think both Ouki + Renpa set up their wars in the same way. Ouki also had a clear understanding of the terrain they were on, he specifically played his Generals in positions just like Renpa, he altered those formations later on, again just like Renpa. His strategy early on was to eliminate Zhao's long distance strategic General too. Chousou says he was out played remember.

And both appear to initially use strategy, sit back with the plan of physically engaging their enemy later on (unless it's a unique situation a la Gaimou).

I'm not really sure how I would rate either because it depends if we incorporate tactics within strategy, but they both showed that they're similar, stylistically. So having a swing of 80 either way (70-30 vs 30-70) seems way OTT.

I would say Renpa has the edge strategically. Instinctually, I I think they're about even. Ouki gets the nod in combat. 

I pay less attention than I used to with the whole strategy vs instincts because it can become complicated when tactics are involved. I can see Ouki being a bit more reliant on instinct than Renpa though, just because he seems more of a risk taker, whereas Renpa appears to analyse more.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I think both Ouki + Renpa set up their wars in the same way. Ouki also had a clear understanding of the terrain they were on, he specifically played his Generals in positions just like Renpa, he altered those formations later on, again just like Renpa. His strategy early on was to eliminate Zhao's long distance strategic General too. Chousou says he was out played remember.
> 
> And both appear to initially use strategy, sit back with the plan of physically engaging their enemy later on (unless it's a unique situation a la Gaimou).
> 
> ...



There isn't much to go on. I was planning to write something on it, but going back through the chapters, there really isn't much to support either stance.

However, I do see Ouki being the better man when it comes to tactics/instincts and Renpa the better strategist. Combat? Meh, I don't really know. I've always kinda saw them as equals.

But for now, I'll go with the more conservative 60/40.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Just imagining the reaction on here once Ousen arrives and survives the day 
Is there any other character who makes such epic arrivals?

I imagine he'll do some sort of trick which will make Zhao believe Ousen is still stationed there. One of these days Ousen will actually lose in a contest of mind games.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

Ousen lost pretty badly to Renpa.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Ousen lost pretty badly to Renpa.



Wouldn't say that. Ousen had planned an escape before hand. Mentally, he was prepared.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Wouldn't say that. Ousen had planned an escape before hand. Mentally, he was prepared.



But he always has an escape plan... He'd have an escape plan against Shin if he could.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> But he always has an escape plan... He'd have an escape plan against Shin if he could.



That's what I mean. One day, he won't be able to escape.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

I asked KIG this in private but I wanted to get your guys' opinion on the subject.

So obviously Shin's starting to use a Glaive now in preparation to eventually wield Ou Ki's. When do you guys think he will pick up Ou Ki's Glaive? Do you think he'll pick it up in the campaign following the Qin Political arc or how many arcs away/what time frame (both within the story and in real life) do you think it'll take him to be comfortable enough with his Glaive mastery to use it?

I'm thinking that for sure by the next time he fights Gai Mou he'll be using it but that could be awhile from now.

Obviously he's going to become a General before the next political arc takes place so that'll either require him to become one at the end of this Campaign or there will be another Campaign arc after it.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

He wouldn't need to become a General before the political war - remember RyoFui will try to kill Sei before the ceremony. 

Shin will become a General for the first war under Sei's official reign, so after the political war (assuming that's where the political stuff ends). Though I don't know whether that means Shin will be the lead General on a smaller scale war or a smaller General in a big war.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> He wouldn't need to become a General before the political war - remember RyoFui will try to kill Sei before the ceremony.
> 
> Shin will become a General for the first war under Sei's official reign. Though I don't know whether that means Shin will be the lead General on a smaller scale war or a smaller General in a big war.



Didn't Sei tell him to become a General before Sei's coming-of-age ceremony so that he would have enough power to assist Sei at all costs?

Pretty sure he said that either at the end of Sei Kyou's Rebellion arc or the Coalition arc and then Shin promised him he would or am I just lelmemoryfailuring?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

Ares said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I could see him using Ouki's glaive when:

He first becomes a general.
During the war between Sei and Ryo
The first war after the political war
Or when the unification starts



Kanki Is God said:


> He wouldn't need to become a General before the political war - remember RyoFui will try to kill Sei before the ceremony.
> 
> Shin will become a General for the first war under Sei's official reign, so after the political war (assuming that's where the political stuff ends). Though I don't know whether that means Shin will be the lead General on a smaller scale war or a smaller General in a big war.



Um, Shin has to become a General before Sei gets crowned. He'll need him to lead his troops against any opposition Ryo might throw at him.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Guess I miss-read then. I thought Shin had to become General for when Sei officially starts the unification.

Seeing as the political war is in a few months time, and Shin is only a 4k commander, we might as well prepare a gravestone for Gaimou


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I could see him using Ouki's glaive when:
> 
> He first becomes a general.
> During the war between Sei and Ryo
> ...



Yeah okay, you and I are on the same page then as those are the times I was thinking he would use it during as well. I mean the first two go hand-in-hand, the third one makes sense because he may not want to use it right away and the fourth one is DEFINITELY when he'll use it.



Moe-058 said:


> Um, Shin has to become a General before Sei gets crowned. He'll need him to lead his troops against any opposition Ryo might throw at him.



Yeah, that's what I thought.

Here are the panels too:



What Sei means by "Climb your way up to me." is become a General and back me up because he needs Shin's help to beat Ryo Fui and he can't do that with anything less than a General at his side.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Guess I miss-read then. I thought Shin had to become General for when Sei officially starts the unification.
> 
> Seeing as the political war is in a few months time, and Shin is only a 4k commander, we might as well prepare a gravestone for Gaimou



Nope, he needs to be a General by the time Sei's coming-of-age ceremony takes place because that's when Ryo Fui is going to strike. 

Well like I said, if he hits 5K after this arc then the next arc will be another Campaign where he becomes General and then the arc following that will be the political arc most likely.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

But reading those panels, Sei is saying he will:

- Do the ceremony
- Then get rid of Ruo Fui
- Then begin the unification

He wants Shin to be a General by the time Sei begins the unification.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> But reading those panels, Sei is saying he will:
> 
> - Do the ceremony
> - Then get rid of Ruo Fui
> ...



Eh, I had interpreted that as he wants Shin to be a General before all of the begins, though after you bring it to light I could see that being the case as well. I guess we'll see soon enough.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

I don't recall a direct mention of Shin needing to become a general to fend of Ryo, but you can put two-'n'-two together and see that it is the reason why as both Sei and Shin keep having this discussion about them both attaining greater levels of power for eachothers sake. They've had this discussion after: the first revolt, both Qin-Wei war, the coalition invasion, and after Seikyou's death. It has been a recurring discussion between them. So far, Sei only has Heki to rely on to lead his troops. From very early on, both Shoubunkun and Heki rose in ladder to support Sei. Shoubunkun would become a chancellor and Heki would become a general. The unification arc prolly won't start until an after the political war arc or the one after. Sei needs Shin well before that. He needs him to become a general when he is about to get crowned. No way in hell can Heki be relied on, but then this brings up an interesting point. 

Will Shin have to battle Moubu and Shouheikun?


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

I think it makes more sense - there's no way Shin won't do anything big in the political war. He's basically guaranteed a promotion. 

So this war he'll become 5k, then during the political war he'll become a General after saving Sei's life or something.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I think it makes more sense - there's no way Shin won't do anything big in the political war. He's basically guaranteed a promotion.
> 
> So this war he'll become 5k, then during the political war he'll become a General after saving Sei's life or something.



I don't know about that. I think we can all agree that the political war arc will most likely succeed this arc. Shin will have to jump straight to a general rank if he is to be able to fight against Ryo.

Or, as you said, Shin might become a general AFTER the poltiical war arc, but then this begs the question, who will be the Commander-in-Chief for Sei's faction?

Will Shin serve as a 5k unit for Heki?

How in Gods name is Heki meant to stand a chance against Moubu or Shouheikun? Will we even see Moubu or Shouheikun lead Ryo's troops? Or will they defect before that? Will we even get to see a war arc or will it just be purely a courtroom kinda of battle?

So many questions...


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Will Shin have to battle Moubu and Shouheikun?



I don't see that happening.

To be honest, Shou Hei Kun's loyalties to Ryo Fui are already visibly deteriorating. He seems to be associating himself less and less with Ryo Fui as time goes and and is becoming more autonomous. I think that by the time the shit hits the fan they will be teetering towards Sei's camp. I think Mou Bu will follow whatever Shou Hei Kun decides to do which IMO will be leaving Ryo Fui.



Kanki Is God said:


> I think it makes more sense - there's no way Shin won't do anything big in the political war. He's basically guaranteed a promotion.
> 
> So this war he'll become 5k, then during the political war he'll become a General after saving Sei's life or something.



Could be, I still reckon he'll be a General before though. Like Moe said, it's been exclaimed by both Sei and Shin that they both need to reach that level before his coming-of-age ceremony takes place.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I don't know about that. I think we can all agree that the political war arc will most likely succeed this arc. Shin will have to jump straight to a general rank if he is to be able to fight against Ryo.
> 
> Or, as you said, Shin might become a general AFTER the poltiical war arc, but then this begs the question, who will be the Commander-in-Chief for Sei's faction?
> 
> ...



Yeah the ranks business won't mean all that much if it isn't a war of thousands.

The main thing is what the pillars do. I think they're more than likely to switch alliances, because if Sei wins, then Rishi/Shouheikun are getting fired or killed. Anyone who has anything to do with the inner circle of RyoFui isn't going to be trusted for a long, long time. 

So many possibilities 

I can't wait to see just how dirty Ryofui is willing to fight, though. There's also Sei's mum to take into account.

I pity Lazor for knowing what will happen 

edit:

We'll get an early indication of what is going down when we see if Moubu is there or not. He isn't engaging in politics. If he's there, there's gonna be a badass fight. If he isn't there, it'll be more of a court room war with assassins, rather than a big war IMO.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah the ranks business won't mean all that much if it isn't a war of thousands.
> 
> The main thing is what the pillars do. I think they're more than likely to switch alliances, because if Sei wins, then Rishi/Shouheikun are getting fired or killed. Anyone who has anything to do with the inner circle of RyoFui isn't going to be trusted for a long, long time.
> 
> ...



The thing(s) I'm most hyped for in that arc are:

1.) What will Shou Hei Kun/Mou Bu do? 
2.) Ryo Fui, show me how dirty you can get bby.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 14, 2014)

Ares your response speed is ridiculous


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 14, 2014)

I get easily distracted when I read my mango.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Yeah the ranks business won't mean all that much if it isn't a war of thousands.
> 
> The main thing is what the pillars do. I think they're more than likely to switch alliances, because if Sei wins, then Rishi/Shouheikun are getting fired or killed. Anyone who has anything to do with the inner circle of RyoFui isn't going to be trusted for a long, long time.
> 
> ...



The thing is they'll have to switch sides BEFORE the political war ends in Sei's favour.

Shouheikun will most likely switch. I think this mostly stems from a rational an honourable thought sequence. Shouheikun prolly realizes that for Qin, Sei is the best King, not Ryo.

Moubu will realize that Ryo is a merchant. Qin has become a merchant state after King Sho's death and there is no reason why Ryo would change it otherwise. Moubu will most likely realize that only under Sei will he be able to fully manifest his potential.

Rishi will most likely die. He seems to be a somewhat loyal man to the state when he questioned Ryo as to whether he really did sleep with Sei's mom.

Saitaku will most likely also jump ship afterwards.


I hope Sei kills his mother though. As fucked up as it sounds, I cannot imagine any good would come form keeping her alive.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 14, 2014)

New poll up. Thanks, ane.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

I suck at making tactics, definitely more geared towards my instincts.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

Ares said:


> I suck at making tactics, definitely more geared towards my instincts.



Tactics and instincts are kinda the same in this manga.

You are prolly referring to strategy.

Also, people, read the poll title. It is what you could see yourself as being, not what you'd want to be. So be honest - I don't want to see everyone picking hybrids.

As for me?

I'd see myself as being mostly strategical.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 15, 2014)

Hybrid.

I'd enjoy the initial chess match. Id have no reservation devising strategies that use myself as an offensive weapon. I'll likely be a mobile general using instincts to find an opportunity on the fly.

S/C/I - 50/30/20


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

I guess its hard to completely just one, but I'm like 20/80 strategical/instinctual.

And yeah, I'm looking forward to the Ryo vs Sei arc, too bad its one of the more detailed arcs so there's very little that I can actually predict about it.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 15, 2014)

Damn LW, wish you didn't get spoiled :/


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 15, 2014)

I'd probably be very identical to Mougou as a general with even his unusual mannerisms.

Part of the reason I really loved the Sanyou arc alot was because I felt like I could relate to Mougou alot so seeing him deal with everything made it much more impactful than it normally would have.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Damn LW, wish you didn't get spoiled :/



Heh, I actually spoiled myself years ago by watching documentaries and getting really into Chinese history. Altho after getting into Kingdom I did do even more research on this period as I thought I couldn't spoil myself much more, I was kind of wrong lol. 

There's really not going to be too much that I can speculate on from here on out, unless Hara adds filler arcs. The unification part of the story has A LOT more historical details than what we have had so far.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 15, 2014)

Hara does deviate from history sometimes, so even Canuckgirl can't "predict" every arc coming up.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Hara does deviate from history sometimes, so even Canuckgirl can't "predict" every arc coming up.



Actually I'm pretty sure at this point that I can predict about 85% of the major events that are going to happen in Kingdom. At least I have a fairly good idea of just about every major future arc, unless its complete filler.

Like I said before, the events up till now in Kingdom have had less historical details written about them so Hara has had more freedom. While he can change things up in the future as well, I don't think he will change anything major.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Tactics and instincts are kinda the same in this manga.
> 
> You are prolly referring to strategy.
> 
> ...



That is indeed what I meant.

Yeah, I chose what I see myself being rather than what I'd want to be.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

Hara will change things because he'll make the series more Shin-orientated, I imagine.

Really there's no such thing as filler in Kingdom. It's based on history, but Hara can do whatever he wants. It's his world.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Hara will change things because he'll make the series more Shin-orientated, I imagine.
> 
> Really there's no such thing as filler in Kingdom. It's based on history, but Hara can do whatever he wants. It's his world.



Well the series so far hasn't really been that Shin focused, hes clearly the main character, but there's also plenty of spotlight on the other characters and I don't see any reason for that to change.

And what I mean by filler is arcs that aren't based on historical events. And Hara has said that Kingdom is a manga that follows the events of Shi Ji so I doubt he will just start changing shit up.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well the series so far hasn't really been that Shin focused, hes clearly the main character, but there's also plenty of spotlight on the other characters and I don't see any reason for that to change.
> 
> And what I mean by filler is arcs that aren't based on historical events. And Hara has said that Kingdom is a manga that follows the events of Shi Ji so I doubt he will just start changing shit up.



True, but I mean there could be a few historical wars where Ousen scored the biggest achievements whilst Shin did nothing, but Hara will give the achievements to Shin instead.

I would actually like it if we saw a war where Shin wasn't involved. This war is Shin/Ouhon, I imagine we'll see Shin/Mouten....just Mouten/Ouhon would be awesome. Though that type of thing rarely happens so I doubt it.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> True, but I mean there could be a few historical wars where Ousen scored the biggest achievements whilst Shin did nothing, but Hara will give the achievements to Shin instead.
> 
> I would actually like it if we saw a war where Shin wasn't involved. This war is Shin/Ouhon, I imagine we'll see Shin/Mouten....just Mouten/Ouhon would be awesome. Though that type of thing rarely happens so I doubt it.



I don't think he can just straight up move the achievements to someone else like that. Also any of these duels that we see happening the manga are not historical facts so Hara is free to do what he wants with them. 

Shin can still get his achievements in duels and such, but I doubt he would be given a commander in chief position which gets the highest reward unless he was actually the commander in chief.


----------



## Akatora (Jul 15, 2014)

Couldn't see myself as a General, I'd most likely be something along a messenger or part of an escort unit, perhaps part of a strategy council simply being part of the research and making suggestions to have the higher ups taking the final decissions.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I guess its hard to completely just one, but I'm like 20/80 strategical/instinctual.



No general is just completely one. Usuall when you hear instinctual or strategical, it usually means that they are mostly just that - so basically for strategical, I see it as 70/30 or 80/20 strategical/instinctual. I can't see Riboku as being 100% strategical.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> No general is just completely one. Usuall when you hear instinctual or strategical, it usually means that they are mostly just that - so basically for strategical, I see it as 70/30 or 80/20 strategical/instinctual. I can't see Riboku as being 100% strategical.



Duke Hyou and Riboku seem like the only people who are purely just one and also Houken is entirely combat based. Sure they might have basic understanding of instincts and strategy, but it doesn't seem like either one used the thing they didn't specialize in.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Duke Hyou and Riboku seem like the only people who are purely just one and also Houken is entirely combat based. Sure they might have basic understanding of instincts and strategy, but it doesn't seem like either one used the thing they didn't specialize in.



Houken is a special case since he is just a figurehead. 

In the battle for Keiyo castle, Duke Hyou was standing over one of those war boards. Of course, what we saw him doing was, for the most part, instinctual, the placement of all of the 6 armies, in front of their respective castles, had to have been managed by him accordingly. And you forget that despite all the major moves (e.g. the 4th, 1st, and 2nd cavalry storming Kyuugen's camp) having been done instinctually, the overall strategy was to throw the overall battle into disarray, forcing Gokei himself to come out of his camp - which actually worked (it actually should have never worked). That is strategy in my book. One can't be completely one type, it wouldn't make any sense because then Duke would never have placed those armies in front of their respective castles. He'd have just one large army and charge straight to where he though Gokei was hiding. What would happen if there was a fork in Riboku's plan? Just because he's mostly strategical, would he just crash because he completely lacks any instinctivel abilities?

What these ratios represent, for the most part, is the individuals specializations. Any other skillset would still exist, but they'd be vastly less capable than their main skillset.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Houken is a special case since he is just a figurehead.
> 
> In the battle for Keiyo castle, Duke Hyou was standing over one of those war boards. Of course, what we saw him doing was, for the most part, instinctual, the placement of all of the 6 armies, in front of their respective castles, had to have been managed by him accordingly. And you forget that despite all the major moves (e.g. the 4th, 1st, and 2nd cavalry storming Kyuugen's camp) having been done instinctually, the overall strategy was to throw the overall battle into disarray, forcing Gokei himself to come out of his camp - which actually worked (it actually should have never worked). That is strategy in my book. One can't be completely one type, it wouldn't make any sense because then Duke would never have placed those armies in front of their respective castles. He'd have just one large army and charge straight to where he though Gokei was hiding. What would happen if there was a fork in Riboku's plan? Just because he's mostly strategical, would he just crash because he completely lacks any instinctual abilities?



Well I guess if you count the initial battle plan as strategy, sure you could say that Duke Hyou has strategy, but who knows if that was simply his instinct as well. Duke Hyou has always been portrayed in the series as the epitome of a instinctual type, I think hes just purely instinctual based on what we have seen from him. 

And Riboku...I think hes good enough to come up with new plans and strategies on the spot, like we saw when Yotanwa arrived to help Sai. That was completely beyond Riboku's predictions, but yet he very quickly came up with a plan to get himself out of that. That wasn't instinct, that was strategy. So yeah I think Riboku and Duke Hyou are pretty much of only one type. And I don't think Riboku completely lacks instinctual abilities, but I don't think hes ever at a point where needs to use them. Any experienced general should have some instincts when it comes to warfare and some sense of strategy as well. 

But Duke Hyou and Riboku have been portrayed as the epitomes of the each type of general so just based on that I would say that they are just purely 1 type.


----------



## Typhon (Jul 15, 2014)

I would definitely be a instinct based General, but only because I want to survive long enough to see my grandchildren. Things that rely on instinct tend to live the longest. (Can't argue with evolution)


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well I guess if you count the initial battle plan as strategy, sure you could say that Duke Hyou has strategy,



I'm not counting it as strategy - it IS strategy. How is it not? 



> but who knows if that was simply his instinct as well.



How could that have been instinctual? How can his instincts be in play, before the battle has even begun?



> And Riboku...I think hes good enough to come up with new plans and strategies on the spot, like we saw when Yotanwa arrived to help Sai. That was completely beyond Riboku's predictions, but yet he very quickly came up with a plan to get himself out of that. That wasn't instinct, that was strategy. So yeah I think Riboku and Duke Hyou are pretty much of only one type.



That's called tactics, not strategy. And a lot of times, tactics and instincts are one and the same in this manga. 



> And I don't think Riboku completely lacks instinctual abilities, but I don't think hes ever at a point where needs to use them. Any experienced general should have some instincts when it comes to warfare and some sense of strategy as well.



Wait... so we are on the same page as well, but then your point below contradicts your point above. 



> But Duke Hyou and Riboku have been portrayed as the epitomes of the each type of general so just based on that I would say that they are just purely 1 type.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'm not counting it as strategy - it IS strategy. How is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's the difference between tactics and strategy again? I always thought of them as one and the same.  

Anyway, instincts could possibly come into play even without a battle around, as we have seen that Keisha and Riboku did simulation battles and Keisha is instinctual type. Give a board and the pieces to Duke Hyou and tell him from where the enemy is coming from, maybe his instincts will allow him to position his troops in some way and then move from there as the battle progresses. And we do know that Duke Hyou had a bunch of commanders with him so who knows maybe the battle preparation is made by them.

While I say that they are both purely strategical and instinctual, I do also think that they have the basic understand of strategy and instincts. I mean a general of Riboku's tier must have some instincts, but we haven't seen him put them into use at all and I doubt he needs to since its not his forte. And the opposite with Duke Hyou, his experience as a general must have given him the basic understandings of strategy, but he still rolls completely with his instincts, because that's the way he rolls.

What I mean by them being purely instinctual and strategical is that its the only thing they really utilize, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have any understanding of the opposite of their own style.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

You have to be insanely driven, motivated + head strong to be instinctual. 

I'd be more like a strategic General, just because I'd never have the confidence to just go out there and wing it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> What's the difference between tactics and strategy again? I always thought of them as one and the same.



I'll give you an objective definition from wiki:



> Military strategy is the planning and execution of the contest between groups of armed adversaries. Strategy, which is a subdiscipline of warfare and of foreign policy, is a principal tool to secure national interests. It is larger in perspective than military tactics, which involves the disposition and maneuver of units on a particular sea or battlefield,[7] but less broad than grand strategy otherwise called national strategy, which is the overarching strategy of the largest of organizations such as the nation state, confederation, or international alliance and involves using diplomatic, informational, military and economic resources. Military strategy involves using military resources such as people, equipment, and information against the opponent's resources to gain supremacy or reduce the opponent's will to fight, developed through the precepts of military science.



Now, if I was to translate that into Kingdom's terms. I'd say strategy is the overarching set of plans and moves to overcome the oppositions hypothetical set of scenarios and movements. An example would be how Ousen had an archer unit planted, in wait, for Ordo before he had even infiltrated Ousen's camp. Also Riboku and his plan to infiltrate Kankou Pass from its east mountain passage well before they failed to breach Kankou Pass.

I'd define tactics as the real-time response to the enemies in-war tactics (e.g Shin intercepting keisha's flanking unit), unforeseen events (e.g. Yotanwa saving Sai), and the said application to complete said strategy. In other words, Kingdom's instinctive abilities and tactics are one and the same. Most of these are either unforeseen or never planned beforehand - otherwise it would be called strategy.



> Anyway, instincts could possibly come into play even without a battle around, as we have seen that Keisha and Riboku did simulation battles and Keisha is instinctual type.



Yea, but that could have just been her instinctive opposition to Riboku's strategical moves. Strategy would allow her to give an educated guess as to how Riboku would move beforehand and her instinctive abilities would give her the advantage in actually reacting to the hypothetical scenarios. That is where instincts/tactics reign supreme, IMO - when it comes to handling hypothetical scenarios or dealing with unforeseen circumstances/events. Like Duke knew where and how to approach Riboku during his circling war move (whatever you call it).




> While I say that they are both purely strategical and instinctual, I do also think that they have the basic understand of strategy and instincts. I mean a general of Riboku's tier must have some instincts, but we haven't seen him put them into use at all and I doubt he needs to since its not his forte. And the opposite with Duke Hyou, his experience as a general must have given him the basic understandings of strategy, but he still rolls completely with his instincts, because that's the way he rolls.What I mean by them being purely instinctual and strategical is that its the only thing they really utilize, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have any understanding of the opposite of their own style.



So we are on the same page then. I figured when you said, "Purely 1 type", you meant like 100%.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'll give you an objective definition from wiki:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I'd think those 2 work in a similar way like... if your good with strategy you can still come up with quick plans when need be like we saw with Riboku. I guess there could be instinctual tactics and strategical tactics? Like Duke Hyou who just goes where he senses/feels he should go and in a similar situation Riboku would go to the place that he thinks is the best place to go and he quickly thinks of a plan to do it where as Duke Hyou just acts on the feels and rushes in.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 15, 2014)

Perfect time to post this scene, from one of the best mangas ever.



I perfectly agree with him.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Well I'd think those 2 work in a similar way like... if your good with strategy you can still come up with quick plans when need be like we saw with Riboku. I guess there could be instinctual tactics and strategical tactics? Like Duke Hyou who just goes where he senses/feels he should go and in a similar situation Riboku would go to the place that he thinks is the best place to go and he quickly thinks of a plan to do it where as Duke Hyou just acts on the feels and rushes in.



You are right. I've actually thought of that before but:

1. I can't recall a scenario of strategical tactics. Most have been either instinctual or have been performed by a instinctive person -  allowing me to assume that, for the most part, it seems to be related to instincts. Now, I'm saying this is JUST in Kingdom.
2. I think this Kingdom panel (Ch. 228) perfectly summarizes the difference between strategy and instincts/tactics:






ClandestineSchemer said:


> Perfect time to post this scene, from one of the best mangas ever.
> 
> 
> 
> I perfectly agree with him.



I don't get why you posted this? Do you disagree with something said? Or do you have another interpretation to it?


----------



## Robin (Jul 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> You have to be insanely driven, motivated + head strong to be instinctual.



this describes me perfectly.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> You are right. I've actually thought of that before but:
> 
> 1. I can't recall a scenario of strategical tactics. Most have been either instinctual or have been performed by a instinctive person -  allowing me to assume that, for the most part, it seems to be related to instincts. Now, I'm saying this is JUST in Kingdom.



I guess instincts are better when it comes to tactics as with instincts you need to spend less time thinking about your next move. I wonder if you could call Riboku's reaction to Yotanwa's arrival as tactics, he quickly thought about the situation and decided to retreat.

I guess Kanki could be a tactical general that doesn't utilize instincts that much, he uses smaller scale plans and exploits the weaknesses/openings in his enemy. Also Kanki came up with the idea to attack Genbou when he heard that he had replaced Kaishibou as a leader, but that definitely wasn't instincts.
To me it seems like there's too much thought behind Kanki's actions for it to be called instincts.


----------



## ClandestineSchemer (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I don't get why you posted this? Do you disagree with something said? Or do you have another interpretation to it?



It answers the poll question and further reinforces, that tactics=/=strategy, which many confuse.

In fact, Kingdom seems to show instinctual generals as primarily good  tacticians, while the use of strategy is mostly displayed by the strategic generals.

The last part is a no shit deduction, though.


----------



## Robin (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> You are right. I've actually thought of that before but:
> 
> 1. I can't recall a scenario of strategical tactics. Most have been either instinctual or have been performed by a instinctive person -  allowing me to assume that, for the most part, it seems to be related to instincts. Now, I'm saying this is JUST in Kingdom.
> 2. I think this Kingdom panel (Ch. 228) perfectly summarizes the difference between strategy and instincts/tactics:
> ...




tactics is maneuvering of military units, so anyone doing war is doing tactics, either instinctual type or strategical type. The only difference is that strategical type plan their tactics ahead of time and instinctual type come up with tactics right on the spot while being immersed in battle and feeling the flow of it.

A bright example of using excellent tactics as a result of carefully thought-out strategy is Karin.


----------



## Morglay (Jul 15, 2014)

Combat. For the love of God give me a stick and let me swing it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I guess instincts are better when it comes to tactics as with instincts you need to spend less time thinking about your next move. I wonder if you could call Riboku's reaction to Yotanwa's arrival as tactics, he quickly thought about the situation and decided to retreat.
> 
> I guess Kanki could be a tactical general that doesn't utilize instincts that much, he uses smaller scale plans and exploits the weaknesses/openings in his enemy. Also Kanki came up with the idea to attack Genbou when he heard that he had replaced Kaishibou as a leader, but that definitely wasn't instincts.
> To me it seems like there's too much thought behind Kanki's actions for it to be called instincts.



The thing is, I'd prefer it if they didn't call it instincts. Instincts give the idea that it's like an innate, intrinsic, spider-senses type of response. Something devoid of logic, but rather an unexplainable, unconscious natural response that is usually CORRECT.



 From what we've seen, it really isn't like that. Think about it, from almost every instance of instinctive responses, it looks far more tactical. 
Again, another perfect panel (and the actual chapter - 274)that shows that why it should be called tactics rather than instincts:



It says he is unable to sense a thing without any of the factors present. It says, "Duke is able to sense the overall flow of the battle just from taking... line of sight of the enemy soldiers". To me, that doesn't sounds instinctive at all, but rather tactical. Based on the information he has gleamed, he makes logical decision from said information. Same thing with what Kanki did and same thing Renpa did when he memorized the general layout of Mougou's hill. Had it been instinctive, Duke would have noticed something was off without any actual hint.

The only instance I can recall something instinctive (and as a result, not make any logical sense) are these panels:


*Spoiler*: __ 








^Here, he has been guided by just his instincts.



^Here, the Duke has surpassed his understanding - as in instincts are unpredictable or explainable.

I think what you'll find is that most instances of instinctive use has been merely tactical. I implore anyone here to prove otherwise. So I don't know why Hara has decided to divide Generals into instinctive and strategical. My guess is that Hara initially planned that both tactics are a subset of instincts and strategy:

1. Instincts --> tactics devised from spider-senses type instincts.
2. Strategy --> tactics devised from logical and sound deductions.

He's doing a poor job of #1, IMO.

From I've seen so far, I'd say it is more like this.

Tactical General - specializes in a local battlefield settings. Deals with things the strategy failed to see or take into account. Deals with unforeseen events. Specializes less on the grand scheme of the war.

Strategical General - specializes in drawing up a comprehensive, overarching plan that attempts to reach a goal by overcoming any hypothetical obstacles the General can come up with. Specializes less on local war events.

*shrugs*


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

I just think Strategy + Instinctual Generals were just the basics of warfare. Now we're deep into the story and realise things aren't as black or white. We may be looking more into this than Hara intended us to.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> I just think Strategy + Instinctual Generals were just the basics of warfare. Now we're deep into the story and realise things aren't as black or white. We may be looking more into this than Hara intended us to.



Go back to reading Naruto, pleb.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 15, 2014)

Love that set Moe


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Love that set Moe





Thanks, mang. Back at you.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

Am I the only one who wants an Ou Sen face reveal to see how ugly he truly is?


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

I am so using that Ousen image.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

Ares said:


> Am I the only one who wants an Ou Sen face reveal to see how ugly he truly is?


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

LOL, you wish he'll look as good as Jaime.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

Ares said:


> LOL, you wish he'll look as good as Jaime.



He's the older version of Mouten.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> He's the older version of Mouten.



You wish. He's the older version of that ugly ass Ou Hon.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 15, 2014)

Ares said:


> You wish. He's the older version of that ugly ass Ou Hon.



OH! HAHAHA!!!


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

We won't see Ousen's face until Ordo decapitates him after the rematch. He'll be unrecognizable.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> OH! HAHAHA!!!



Hahahaha, if only he was the son of Ou Sen, then you would have been able to pass that off.


----------



## Firo (Jul 15, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> He's the older version of Mouten.



Mouten is too pretty. Nothing about Ou Sen is feminine.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

Eishi has probably given Ouhon the Varys treatment tbf.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

Has anyone seen Kingdom's animu/is it worth watching (does it stick to the canon)?


----------



## Firo (Jul 15, 2014)

From what i've seen... The animations were horrible. That was only the first season though. Havent seen the second to know if it improved or not.
Edit: Well I saw a few gifs...It does look like it improved a bit.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

It's 100% cannon - but it misses out a few things. Kyoukai's assassin arc isn't there, Chu on the border of Qin isn't there, they did the Gekshin thing in about 2 minutes etc.

Some episodes are good. Season 1 had good pacing but terrible animation (3D). Season 2 had half decent animation but it's too squeezed.

It does have 3 amazing episodes - season 2, episode 1-3. Epic.
Ouki's death is also greatly done. Series 1, episode 26 and 27 I believe (the last two).

Bitou's death is also really well done 

But yeah, watch those 5 episodes. Basically the last 2 of S1 and the first 3 of S2. It covers the end of Houken vs Ouki through to the end of Riboku at Kanyou.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 15, 2014)

Eh fuck it. I might just watch those episodes but nothing else.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

You definitely should watch them.

Oh and episode 1 is actually good too. Hyou's death 

Tbh I liked all of S1. Depends how much emphasis you put on censoring + animation.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 15, 2014)

3D in the Ouki vs Houken duel


----------



## Kanki (Jul 15, 2014)

Actually it was episode 36 and 37. 

So.....

Episodes:

36
37
38
S2....
1
2
3

Watch these. Maybe watch episode 1, series 1, just for Hyou's death 
dat ost.


----------



## Beckman (Jul 16, 2014)

Can't stand Shin/Ichigos VA.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Benn Beckman said:


> Can't stand Shin/Ichigos VA.



Shin has the same seiyuu as Ichigo? 

You just guaranteed me not watching the Kingdom animu.


----------



## Akatora (Jul 16, 2014)

I find the VA job of the anime to be satisfying personally, could be so much worse.
Curious to see how a possible 3'rd season will look more than how it'll sound


THen again I recall how annoyed i was when Naruto's voice was used as Red's voice in pokemon. So out of the "big 3" main voices i'd say Ichigo's is the better for shin, Luffy's wouldn't work to high pitched and to a lesser degree Narutos.

Plenty of other potential VA's though, Sei is more noticeable than Shin regarding VA in Kingodm imo.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 16, 2014)

Ares said:


> Shin has the same seiyuu as Ichigo?
> 
> You just guaranteed me not watching the Kingdom animu.



But you haven't heard Ouki's voice actor 

At least watch season 2, episode 1-3.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> But you haven't heard Ouki's voice actor
> 
> At least watch season 2, episode 1-3.



But Ichigo's seiyuu is so annoying.


----------



## Akatora (Jul 16, 2014)

Agreed Ouki's voice acting is great



Ares said:


> But Ichigo's seiyuu is so annoying.



Well most annoying part imo is it's pretty much the same voice he did for Ichigo, a little sad he didn't try sounding a bit different, then again this is probably what the voice caster wanted since it's the voice used.
The scenes where he talk about hot girls i do find annoying personally(since the anime went a few steps further than the manga regarding him acting like an idiot)


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Akatora said:


> Well most annoying part imo is it's pretty much the same voice he did for Ichigo, a little sad he didn't try sounding a bit different, then again this is probably what the voice caster wanted since it's the voice used.
> The scenes where he talk about hot girls i do find annoying personally(since the anime went a few steps further than the manga regarding him acting like an idiot)



That's so damn annoying.  Ichigo had to have one of the most annoying voices ever, especially when he was depressed.  

Anyone got a clip of Ou Ki's voice?


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Akatora said:


> [YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKHPdJOGnJE [/YOUTUBE]



Yeah that's all I could find.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 16, 2014)

[youtube]SKHPdJOGnJE[/youtube]

That's literally all I can find lol.

Shin is hardly in series 2, episode 2 + 3. It's more Riboku, Ryofui, Moubu.

Ouki's death with Spanish subs is on YT somewhere.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Jayzus.

Do you know an ep he's in 'cause I have all of Kingdom on my hard drive.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Haha, Ri Boku is Enel. 

Eh, is that Starrk from Bleach?  I was expecting something better TBH.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 16, 2014)

The end of episode 15 is where Ouki/Sei talk right? 
Skip to the end of that Ares. The last 5 or so minutes, with Sei/Ouki + a flashback.

I loved that bit.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

I just watched him fight Hou Ken. I was disappointed TBH.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 16, 2014)

did you see the retreat + speech though? 

I'm convinced Kyoukai = Kurapika.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> did you see the retreat + speech though?
> 
> I'm convinced Kyoukai = Kurapika.



100% nope.

That is one voice I know completely. She's my favourite seiyuu of all time.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 16, 2014)

Moubu's voice actor is pretty badass tbh.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 16, 2014)

Switching the subject here, but I've been thinking about what Riboku told Houken about the end of his path and I think I might know what he was talking about. So basically I made up a theory.

I think that Shin is what Riboku meant by the end of Houken's path. Shin inherited Ouki's will and represents everything that Ouki did as well, weight and all that stuff. So now that Houken is no longer able to beat Ouki, the only one who can give him the satisfaction of proving Ouki wrong is Shin ( in his prime ). 
I think Riboku and Houken both understood that Shin has the potential to reach a level of strength that rivals even Ouki after he managed to repel Houken and that's what Houken is waiting for, to fight Shin when hes at his absolute peak to finally prove that his way was the right one.


----------



## Justice (Jul 16, 2014)

Got to get back to watching this badass manga.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk0OoXxDqOA&index=8&list=UUtgGNJD_1OkY25yOYAm7tnw[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Justice said:


> Got to get back to watching this badass manga.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk0OoXxDqOA&index=8&list=UUtgGNJD_1OkY25yOYAm7tnw[/YOUTUBE]



KoL makes me laugh when he gets hyped.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 16, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Switching the subject here, but I've been thinking about what Riboku told Houken about the end of his path and I think I might know what he was talking about. So basically I made up a theory.
> 
> I think that Shin is what Riboku meant by the end of Houken's path. Shin inherited Ouki's will and represents everything that Ouki did as well, weight and all that stuff. So now that Houken is no longer able to beat Ouki, the only one who can give him the satisfaction of proving Ouki wrong is Shin ( in his prime ).
> I think Riboku and Houken both understood that Shin has the potential to reach a level of strength that rivals even Ouki after he managed to repel Houken and that's what Houken is waiting for, to fight Shin when hes at his absolute peak to finally prove that his way was the right one.



I always thought it as Riboku telling him that it would be the end of his path because of his inability to understand the weight of a general.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I always thought it as Riboku telling him that it would be the end of his path because of his inability to understand the weight of a general.



That incorporated with Shin being the one to defeat him because of the reasons LW stated is how I interpreted it.

I see Hou Ken being one of Shin's last opponents and Shin will triumph because Hou Ken has no weight.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 16, 2014)

I think he said that irrespective of Shin's involvement. I don't necessarily think Riboku views Shin in such alight, not to such a degree where he believes that Shin will be Houken's biggest obstacle, I just don't. Nor do I think he cares whether he gets over Ouki's glaring supremacy over him. His fight against the Duke and the fact that he was repelled by a junior prolly prompted Riboku to remind him that he won't go anywhere if he keeps up this behaviour.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

No I'm not saying that Ri Boku thought that Shin specifically would be the one that Hou Ken would lose to, but that he would lose to someone like Shin because of the aforementioned reasons. They was pretty ambiguous and it probably wasn't specifically directed towards Shin (being the one to beat Hou Ken) but he definitely knew someone would one day, like Ou Ki, triumph over him because he knows not what Weight is or what it is to have something to fight for which is why someone like Ou Ki who may have been weaker than him in terms of actual strength was capable of defeating him. That's just how I interpreted his words though.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> That's what I mean. One day, he won't be able to escape.





Justice said:


> Got to get back to watching this badass manga.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk0OoXxDqOA&index=8&list=UUtgGNJD_1OkY25yOYAm7tnw[/YOUTUBE]



He's so right.

I used to call up a bud who got me into manga years ago and just shout "Uoooooooooooooooooooh!!!" For like 5 min after some solid arcs/chaps


----------



## Kanki (Jul 16, 2014)

Ares said:


> That incorporated with Shin being the one to defeat him because of the reasons LW stated is how I interpreted it.
> 
> I see Hou Ken being one of Shin's last opponents and Shin will triumph because Hou Ken has no weight.



Houken's placement will be interesting, actually. He's essentially the guy who's Shin's ultimate combat benchmark, and yet there's a good chance he'll be dead when there's still half the unification left, assuming Zhao are the 3rd state to go down. 

Unless there's actually someone out there who's above even Houken. Perhaps Kouen/EOS Kouyoku.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 16, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Houken's placement will be interesting, actually. He's essentially the guy who's Shin's ultimate combat benchmark, and yet there's a good chance he'll be dead when there's still half the unification left, assuming Zhao are the 3rd state to go down.
> 
> Unless there's actually someone out there who's above even Houken. Perhaps Kouen/EOS Kouyoku.



Yeah, I agree. Hou Ken is essentially what Shin needs to surpass to prove he's surpassed Ou Ki regardless of the fact that Hou Ken didn't truly "beat" Ou Ki. I don't think it really matters when he beats Hou Ken, it's not like he has to become the strongest in the last arc(s) of Kingdom, there will still be many more challenges to the upcoming wars that Shin won't be able to surpass via brute strength alone so I don't think it's necessary for Hou Ken to live until the end of the story.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 17, 2014)

Since chapters are coming out early this week, I think Kingdom chapter might already come tomorrow.

Wonder will we jump back to Shin or will we stay with Ouhon vs Shihaku. I hope we will just get the Ouhon vs Shihaku fight.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 17, 2014)

Chapters are out early? How come? We get chapters the day after the raw is released at best. As the raw isn't out yet, there's little chance of us getting it tomorrow. 

I think we'll skip back to Shin now. We'll see him under pressure. Next week we'll probably see him put up a better fight.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 17, 2014)

Ugh I want to see Shihaku vs Ouhon ... Like bad.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 17, 2014)

Same, I don't want it to change scenes next chap.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 17, 2014)

Ares said:


> Ou Hon is on the furthermost to the West, Shin is the furthermost to the East, Ou Sen is North West.
> 
> 
> The maps:
> ...



(pasted from the OL convo).

This might add more weight behind any potential Ousen-interference. He's closest to Ouhon.


----------



## convict (Jul 17, 2014)

If Ousen somehow manages to find a way to Chouyou while also making countermeasures against a Zhao backlash I am going to just go ahead and look at him as the best Qin general without a doubt.


----------



## Harard (Jul 17, 2014)

Akatora said:


> Yammy's endurance proved to be against



looooooooooooool


----------



## Kanki (Jul 17, 2014)

convict said:


> If Ousen somehow manages to find a way to Chouyou while also making countermeasures against a Zhao backlash I am going to just go ahead and look at him as the best Qin general without a doubt.



It's basically a repeat of what he did against Yan. As long as Zhao think he's there, they won't do anything.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 17, 2014)

convict said:


> If Ousen somehow manages to find a way to Chouyou while also making countermeasures against a Zhao backlash I am going to just go ahead and look at him as the best Qin general without a doubt.


----------



## convict (Jul 18, 2014)

It is a grander scale against different foes. Foes who know what he has done in the past. Additionally, if word of Ousen's arrival reaches Chouyou Zhao can make a move since the distance traveled is so much. I am not simply talking about a feint, but actually employing defenses against Zhao. If Ordo chose to attack it would have been over.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

convict said:


> It is a grander scale against different foes. Foes who know what he has done in the past. Additionally, if word of Ousen's arrival reaches Chouyou Zhao can make a move since the distance traveled is so much. I am not simply talking about a feint, but actually employing defenses against Zhao. If Ordo chose to attack it would have been over.



...What?

Oh noo, that was just a joke post - Ousen lookin' down at everyone while employing strategical maneuvers to cripple them.


----------



## Firo (Jul 18, 2014)

Ou Sen is already Qin's best general.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 18, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> Ou Sen is already Qin's best general.



Hmm, how would you guys rank the current Qin top 4 generals? 

I think its like
Ousen
Tou
Moubu
Kanki.


----------



## Firo (Jul 18, 2014)

I have it exactly like that tbh.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 18, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Hmm, how would you guys rank the current Qin top 4 generals?
> 
> I think its like
> Ousen
> ...



In terms of what?

I think I agree with that list regardless. I might put Kan Ki over Mou Bu though, Kan Ki is way more clutch.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

Honestly, my gut feeling is telling me we haven't seen jack from Kanki -t hat we have just scratched the surface of what he is capable of, both martially and tactically.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Honestly, my gut feeling is telling me we haven't seen jack from Kanki -t hat we have just scratched the surface of what he is capable of, both martially and tactically.



I agee.

I was having this discussion on Skype yesterday. But if Ou Sen and Kan Ki were to go at it, who do you think would win?

My money is on Kan Ki.

The reason why I give it to Kan Ki is because although Ou Sen specializes in his "flawless" defenses, Kan Ki seems to be *extremely* proficient at exploiting weaknesses.

I can't wait until Kan Ki gets more feats because I honestly wouldn't be surprised if his tactical prowess put him above Ou Sen but for now I'll settle with above Mou Bu.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 18, 2014)

Tou
Ousen
Moubu
Kanki

Tou is so overall sound as a great general he doesn't even mind letting a couple kids play war with his army


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 18, 2014)

Yeah but Kan Ki is overall pretty sound too. Why don't you have him also above Ou Sen and Mou Bu?


----------



## Firo (Jul 18, 2014)

Kanki's strategy revolves around him getting the jump on his opponents especially  through infiltration. Ou Sen's defenses for the most point are impregnable. He's the perfect counter for Kanki which is why he can't beat Ou Sen.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

Ares said:


> I agee.
> 
> I was having this discussion on Skype yesterday. But if Ou Sen and Kan Ki were to go at it, who do you think would win?
> 
> ...



I'd say Ousen would still win, but there are many unknown factors at play here. For the most part, Kanki would know that Ousen would prepare beforehand for his "infiltrations" and Ousen would also know how Kanki rolls.
then you have to consider how capable Kanki and Ousen are at combat. Both could be geniuses at their respective fighting styles. What good would Kanki's infiltration do if he can't even best Ousen in combat. Ousen could also challenge kanki on open plains with his HQ located on an open mountain, essentially rendering kanki's infiltrations moot. Or Kanki could be a genius at open plain battle as well.

*shrugs*


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> I'd say Ousen would still win, but there are many unknown factors at play here. For the most part, Kanki would know that Ousen would prepare beforehand for his "infiltrations" and Ousen would also know how Kanki rolls.
> then you have to consider how capable Kanki and Ousen are at combat. Both could be geniuses at their respective fighting styles. What good would Kanki's infiltration do if he can't even best Ousen in combat. Ousen could also challenge kanki on open plains with his HQ located on an open mountain, essentially rendering kanki's infiltrations moot. Or Kanki could be a genius at open plain battle as well.
> 
> *shrugs*



Yeah.

They're literally two of the most vaguely explored characters.

Both could be each other's Achilles' heel.


----------



## Firo (Jul 18, 2014)

I guess I didnt factor in intel and I was focused on if this were just a battle based on their skillsets.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

One of the things I love most about this manga is the amount of detail that goes into 3rd POV, strategy illustrations and how narrative, engaging, and accurate it is to the grand strategy.

Actually, this isn't as good a example, but this is the only one I had in my image album and I'm too lazy to look for a better one:


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 18, 2014)

General Hara


----------



## Hibari Kyoya (Jul 18, 2014)

Bitches please, Tou is clearly the strongest.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

Hibari Kyoya said:


> Bitches please, Tou is clearly the strongest.



Funny considering we've seen him do jack shit.

The only thing he has under his belt is the head of Rinbukun.

The first time he had a chance to shine, he relegated the task to Ouhon and Mouten and funny enough, he's done just that again with Ouhon and Shin this time.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 18, 2014)

Ares said:


> Yeah but Kan Ki is overall pretty sound too. Why don't you have him also above Ou Sen and Mou Bu?



Kanki is still shrouded in a mystery. We've really only seen his tactics at this point, which are excellent. Still no gauge on strategy or combat which leaves him on the lower end of most overall lists.

One of the biggest arguments against Kanki at the moment is so what if he infiltrates Moubu or Renpa's base camp if he has no martial might to do anything once he does. Many questions to be answered.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> Kanki is still shrouded in a mystery. We've really only seen his tactics at this point, which are excellent. Still no gauge on strategy or combat which leaves him on the lower end of most overall lists.
> 
> One of the biggest arguments against Kanki at the moment is so what if he infiltrates Moubu or Renpa's base camp if he has no martial might to do anything once he does. Many questions to be answered.



I'd like there to be more focus on speed and technique when it comes to martial fighters. Almost every General's martial prowess comes from a blend of super strength and technique. I'd like to see more Futei's and Kyoukai's at General level - as in I'd like to see Kanki move like Kyoukai in her fight against Shin in the Assassination Arc.

I'm not saying Futei or Kyoukai aren't physically strong, but their danger comes more so from their speed and movement, rather than their strength.


----------



## Firo (Jul 18, 2014)

Kanki is the wild card to Qin's progression. He does the things that needs to be done in order to gain the upper hand. I want to see how he handles himself when he's in a tight spot though. Im pretty sure he can  but Im just curious.


----------



## JiraiyaForever (Jul 18, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Funny considering we've seen him do jack shit.
> 
> The only thing he has under his belt is the head of Rinbukun.
> 
> The first time he had a chance to shine, he relegated the task to Ouhon and Mouten and funny enough, he's done just that again with Ouhon and Shin this time.



You could say Tou knew what needed to be done against Karin's assault and he had a quick, calm mind to make an educated guess that Ouhon and Mouten would be able to execute it without being told to do so. 

We also can't forget that arguably the strongest 6GG said that Tou was pretty close to his level.



Moe-058 said:


> I'd like there to be more focus on speed and technique when it comes to martial fighters. Almost every General's martial prowess comes from a blend of super strength and technique. I'd like to see more Futei's and Kyoukai's at General level - as in I'd like to see Kanki move like Kyoukai in her fight against Shin in the Assassination Arc.
> 
> I'm not saying Futei or Kyoukai aren't physically strong, but their danger comes more so from their speed and movement, rather than their strength.



I completely agree.  Speed kills even if it's achieved by sacrificing strength.  I think Futei is highly underrated because he severely underestimated shin and was sent flying.  I would absolutely LOVE if Kanki ended up being a combat fighter with near flawless technique and speed to execute it.

Quickly dodging a full force Ganmei level attack and countering with his sword through Ganmei's neck before he understands how it happened.  No heads flying, No head smashing. Simply swift lethal attacks... followed by trademark brutality  !


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 18, 2014)

JiraiyaForever said:


> You could say Tou knew what needed to be done against Karin's assault and he had a quick, calm mind to make an educated guess that Ouhon and Mouten would be able to execute it without being told to do so.
> 
> We also can't forget that arguably the strongest 6GG said that Tou was pretty close to his level.



None of these feats speak for him, unfortunately.


----------



## haegar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



well, fuckin hell, is all I got for now


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jul 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



And with this Shin's fight can be offpanelled because the result will be obvious. 

Damn, not gonna lie. I'm dissapointed as hell.

Doesn't help I find Ouhon so fucking obnoxious and annoying.


----------



## haegar (Jul 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 



I guess one might argue if Shin in the past could overcome such odds, why shoudnt others be able to, - it was stated by Renpa as requirement for becoming GG to survive such odds time and again, and none of us rly argue that Ouhon and Mouten are on as promising a road to future greatness as Shin. 

That being said,I feel Ouhon has thrice the brains of Shin, which is his road to GG, and I likewise feel fire dragons were set up as too big a step to overcome at this point.

 I guess Hara tried setting this up as Ouhon holding out a loosing battle until the point he can surprise his oponnent with a crucial hit that Shihaku at this point did not consider him capable of anymore with all the bloodloss. To me it still feels meh though but then again I never liked Ouhon too much, though I admit he is slowly, very slowly growing on me a bit with the devbelopment he's getting.

 Oh well, we'll see how this goes on, maybe actually we get a surprise and Shin does not beat Gaimou as one might take as a given after Ouhon succeeding but just holds him up for Kyukai to do her thing. Actually one might argue that for Shin, holding out in a hard battle for tactical reasons is the bigger development towards being a general than just *simply* brute forcing the enemy comander into submission - for him it'd be an achievement to fight such opponent with the mindset of not wanting to win as such


----------



## The Faceless Man (Jul 19, 2014)

My opinion on what should have happen. Its pretty long but fuck it....


*Spoiler*: __ 



If Hara would have said that Ouhon has the same stamina as Shin and really make him have some dumb luck... like throwing the spear or some crazy shit.... that would be more believable.
But the ammount of hits that he took without having Shin's stamina.... its impossible for him to even do this.

Then he could have always make Ouhon take just 1 hand or cripple Earl Shi somehow making him retreat....

Shin's taking blows with gaimou its more believable since we know how strong he is and how much stamina he has... the development on going against other strong people also helps make it be more okay.

But this shit you cant apply to Ouhon...

This also means we dont need to worry... Shin will win also. And only 1 dragon will remain... and i hope that Tou dies to make the war a little better cuz if this happens to be so one sided from Qin then well this would be just terrible.....


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 19, 2014)

Read the raw.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I feel like Hara tried to make Shihaku as Ouhon's ''Rinko'' and give him some much needed development and time to show as a character, but the the problem here is that Shihaku was made to be too strong.

Shin shouldn't win Gaimou, Ouhon winning Shihaku is almost bullshit even though Ouhon is a true master with the spear, but Shin is an amateur glaive user so he really shouldn't win his fight.


----------



## sadino (Jul 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 




Ouhon just did the Shin.


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Well that ended quicker than I thought.

Not sure how I feel until I read the scan though


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 19, 2014)

Is the translation out yet?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 19, 2014)

Ares said:


> Is the translation out yet?



Nope, probably will be tomorrow.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 19, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Nope, probably will be tomorrow.



Damn. So much for a day early.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 19, 2014)

The new volume coverpage is out


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 19, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> The new volume coverpage is out



Sei Kyou looks bawss. 

I can't wait for one of Mou Ten.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 19, 2014)

Ares said:


> Sei Kyou looks bawss.
> 
> I can't wait for one of Mou Ten.



Mouten was on volume 19 cover with Shin and Ouhon.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 19, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Mouten was on volume 19 cover with Shin and Ouhon.



No I mean just Mou Ten.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 19, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 





So then, Eishi is definitely not as strong as we thought. I had him down as a top level fighter, but he's probably no stronger in combat than Duke at best. 

I think it's BS that Ouhon won, but the comments at the end made it a lot better. My guess is, if Shin doesn't beat Gaimou, then Ouhon won't be in the Wei war. Who's there for him to defeat?




raw stuff...


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 19, 2014)

KIG and Lazor read the raws...?

Kinda surprised.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 19, 2014)

I just really needed to know how this fight continued lol.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 19, 2014)

I don't usually. Only the 2nd time I've done it.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 19, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I just really needed to know how this fight continued lol.



I'm going to go ahead and assume something big happened with all these raw posts and I'm afraid to even find out tomorrow.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 19, 2014)

Can't believe Hara killed Kyoukai


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 19, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Can't believe Hara killed Kyoukai



Did she fall off her horse and break her back or something?


----------



## Kanki (Jul 19, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> Did she fall off her horse and break her back or something?



oops...forgot to spoiler tag it!


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 19, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> oops...forgot to spoiler tag it!



Negged    .


----------



## haegar (Jul 19, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> Summary for 396 from mangafox.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 



I agree that these aspects make it more acceptable that I thought the text could make it but it's still sort of over the top. In hindsight, maybe the issue was rather that Hara gave Shi too much of a hype to begin with - or our mistake as readers for putting him up with Gaimou whose claim of being on par with Ouki and Renpa I still kinda buy into despite Shin not having died yet  

What I do like unequivocally is that little flashback with dad - that's pretty effective for 2 pages spent on it.








Kanki Is God said:


> oops...forgot to spoiler tag it!





Moe-058 said:


> Negged    .



*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Kanki (Jul 20, 2014)

No chapter today?


----------



## haegar (Jul 20, 2014)

crap, I thought ya posted cause it was out


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 20, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> No chapter today?





haegar said:


> crap, I thought ya posted cause it was out



NEGGED HIM AGAIN!!!


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 20, 2014)

Where da chap at doe?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 20, 2014)

Doesn't look like its coming today. Hopefully early tomorrow.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 20, 2014)

FML.

Only good thing that would have happened today would have been this chap.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm calling it.....

TF haven't gotten hold of a Japanese Raw. We need MJ to come through this week.



Moe-058 said:


> NEGGED HIM AGAIN!!!


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Are you almost Transcendant again yet?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 21, 2014)

Looks like TF will translate the chapter for tomorrow so doesn't look like we are getting a chapter today. Unless mangajoy does it.


----------



## haegar (Jul 21, 2014)

again I came by thinking somebody posted chapter link ...


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

haegar said:


> again I came by thinking somebody posted chapter link ...



Same.

What a let down.


----------



## Kanki (Jul 21, 2014)

Ares said:


> Are you almost Transcendant again yet?



If Halcyon continues to neg me I'll be there before the end of the week


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> If Halcyon continues to neg me I'll be there before the end of the week



How far are you away from Transcendant?


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 21, 2014)

The chapter is out on Mangajoy.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Link please.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 21, 2014)

Oh yeah, forgot lol. 46 NOT english


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Eat my shit KIG.


----------



## Sphyer (Jul 21, 2014)

I'm fine with this conclusion.

Now I wonder what's gonna happen with Gaimou.


----------



## Firo (Jul 21, 2014)

Dat Ouhon.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Ou Hon just climbed the ranks of my favourites list.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> (pasted from the OL convo).
> 
> This might add more weight behind any potential Ousen-interference. He's closest to Ouhon.



Negged for inaccuracy.


----------



## lazorwalrus (Jul 21, 2014)

I'm actually quite fine with this, it wasn't nakampower or anything like that. It made sense and Ouhon is a true master with a spear. 

But Shin who's an amateur with the glaive should not win his fight.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

lazorwalrus said:


> I'm actually quite fine with this, it wasn't nakampower or anything like that. It made sense and Ouhon is a true master with a spear.
> 
> But Shin who's an amateur with the glaive should not win his fight.



I agree with this 100%. 

See I can't see Shin winning without a contrived conclusion whereas with Ou Hon it makes sense that he won. There were several things going for him to win that fight but with Shin? He literally has nothing that puts him above Gai Mou.


----------



## Firo (Jul 21, 2014)

Ares said:


> Ou Hon just climbed the ranks of my favourites list.



He should've been there.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Red Hood said:


> He should've been there.



pls, my top 10 is too koalatea for Ou Hon. He hasn't reached those standards yet.


----------



## Grumpy Zoro (Jul 21, 2014)

Told ya' guys these fuckers are overhyped

The strongest spear in china huh? Seems Rinko level...maybe a little bit above.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Grumpy Zoro said:


> Told ya' guys these fuckers are overhyped
> 
> The strongest spear in china huh? Seems Rinko level...maybe a little bit above.



Shin beat Rinko way easier than Ou Hon did Ei Shi. I agree that they were over-hyped, but not as weak as Rinko.


----------



## haegar (Jul 21, 2014)

That final line of "get the fuck outa my way" was good, that helps a lot


----------



## Pliskin (Jul 21, 2014)

Gotta say, I am not happy with Ouhon's win.

Seemed ass-pullish, Hyped Earl Shi up way to much to ahve him basically like fodder. No last words, no change in strategy, no nothing.

Hope Shin does not follow suit, else I feel this would be the first time I feel this gives the vibe of a generic Shonen. You know, hype new villain ridiculously ('My Rinnegan thirsts for battle')--> have him lose without showing anything to support the hype--> rinse repeat.


----------



## Morglay (Jul 21, 2014)

Needs a theme song:


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 21, 2014)

Wow... hahahaa. I might as well write on it.


----------



## perman07 (Jul 21, 2014)

Ares said:


> I agree with this 100%.
> 
> See I can't see Shin winning without a contrived conclusion whereas with Ou Hon it makes sense that he won. *There were several things going for him to win that fight but with Shin? He literally has nothing that puts him above Gai Mou.*


Protagonistic fate-like talent of the heavens isn't enough? You demand things to make sense too?


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 21, 2014)

perman07 said:


> Protagonistic fate-like talent of the heavens isn't enough? You demand things to make sense too?



For the most part, everything in Kingdom has made sense. Most things has been fair and explainable.


----------



## perman07 (Jul 21, 2014)

Moe-058 said:


> For the most part, everything in Kingdom has made sense. Most things has been fair and explainable.


Well, it's internally consistent to a bigger degree than most manga, but it doesn't really make sense that strong individuals can fight their way through dozens of men in the immediate vicinity. In real life, a spear from behind to hamstring a horse or cut the dude on the horse would be all that's needed, in Kingdom it never happens for some reason. Strong men can't be beaten by fodder.

Kingdom makes more sense than most manga, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's not some hallmark of logic and common sense, it's just better than other manga while also awesome. I can look over all this because of the awesome-part.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 21, 2014)

perman07 said:


> Well, it's internally consistent to a bigger degree than most manga, but it doesn't really make sense that strong individuals can fight their way through dozens of men in the immediate vicinity. In real life, a spear from behind to hamstring a horse or cut the dude on the horse would be all that's needed, in Kingdom it never happens for some reason. Strong men can't be beaten by fodder.
> 
> Kingdom makes more sense than most manga, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking it's not some hallmark of logic and common sense, it's just better than other manga while also awesome. I can look over all this because of the awesome-part.



Haha. Dude, I didn't think I'd have to clarify that I was speaking in terms of the mangaverse. Renpa cleaved a boulder in HALF for god's sake.


----------



## perman07 (Jul 21, 2014)

Well, that actually can make sense from established rules, reading supernatural shit (which Kingdom definitely partly is) requires some suspension of disbelief. But nowhere has it been stated that being strong in Kingdom makes you impervious to spears from fodder. So unlike for instance Dragon Ball where in-manga mechanics means strong men crushing scores of fodder is natural, it doesn't really make sense from established mechanics in Kingdom.


----------



## dream (Jul 21, 2014)

Super important question time.

I haven't read this in months so could anyone tell me if anything has happened on the romance front for Shin?


----------



## Bungee Gum (Jul 21, 2014)

This chapter was great. Ouhon just climbed my ranks of favorites as well. The way he defeated him made sense, his skill with technique and mastery surpassed shihaku, but lacked strength and experience. This, along with the fact that Shihaku pretty much had no survival instict after his sisters death, means he died. Now if Shihaku was more like Ouhon, Ouhon would be dead. Super dead.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 21, 2014)

perman07 said:


> Well, that actually can make sense from established rules, reading supernatural shit (which Kingdom definitely partly is) requires some suspension of disbelief. But nowhere has it been stated that being strong in Kingdom makes you impervious to spears from fodder. So unlike for instance Dragon Ball where in-manga mechanics means strong men crushing scores of fodder is natural, it doesn't really make sense from established mechanics in Kingdom.



Well for one, it's like a trope that doesn't have to be explained or stated, but to be naturally assumed is a fundamental part of the story and characters.

Also, Riko once explained that it was akin to be chosen by the Heavens.




Dream said:


> Super important question time.
> 
> I haven't read this in months so could anyone tell me if anything has happened on the romance front for Shin?



In months... what the HELL! How is that even possible?

And no. Kyoukai did say she wanted to bear shin's children, but then Ten had to explain to her the process.


----------



## GIORNO (Jul 21, 2014)

Dream said:


> Super important question time.
> 
> I haven't read this in months so could anyone tell me if anything has happened on the romance front for Shin?



Moe is lying. Shin got da keesu with Ten.


----------



## Deleted member 234422 (Jul 21, 2014)

LOL. I forgot, haha.

Also Shin said he views Ten as a sister.


----------



## Reznor (Jul 21, 2014)

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread *Here*


----------

