# Strongest to Weakest Akatsuki Member?



## Brandon1144 (Mar 26, 2014)

My opinion, it goes like this:

1. Tobi/Obito
2. Nagato/Pein
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru
5. Konan
6. Deidara
7. Sasori
8. Kisame
9. Kakuzu
10. Hidan
11. Zetsu

Whats your opinion? Are they different then mine or pretty similar?


----------



## Punished Pathos (Mar 26, 2014)

Kisame should be top 5.


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 26, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> 1.Itachi
> 2.Rest


Itachi may be really cool, but he could never beat Obito, not after absorbing the Jubbi.


----------



## Super Chief (Mar 26, 2014)

1. Obito
2. Nagato
3. Itachi
4. Konan
5. Deidara
6. Kisame
7. Kakuzu
8. Sasori
9. Hidan
10. Zetsu

Yes, Deidara > Kisame. Low to mid difficulty.



Aikuro said:


> 1.Itachi
> 2.Rest




Nagato and Obito are easily superior to Itachi.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 26, 2014)

Obito

Nagato

Itachi

Konan/Kisame/Zetsu

Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu

Hidan


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Mar 26, 2014)

01 Nagato
02 Orochimaru
03 Sasori
04 Itachi
05 Dende w/ kami'guru
06 Dodoria
07 Zetsu
08 Konan
O9 Kakuzu
00 Zarban

or...


Nagato


Itachi/sasori/Oro


mid-tiers


Hidan


----------



## Itachі (Mar 26, 2014)

Brandon1144 said:


> My opinion, it goes like this:
> 
> 1. Tobi/Obito
> 2. Nagato/Pein
> ...


1. Orochimaru
2. Obito
3. Nagato
4. Itachi
5. Konan
6. Deidara
7. Sasori
8. Kakuzu
9. Kisame
10. Zetsu
11. Hidan

The reason I put Orochimaru above everybody is because of Edo Tensei.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 26, 2014)

1. Uchiha Obito
2. Uzumaki Nagato
3. Hoshigaki Kisame
4. Orochimaru
5. Sasori
6. Deidera
7. Uchiha Itachi
8. Kakazu
9. Hidan
10. Konan
11. Zetsu


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 26, 2014)

--  Obito (Rinnegan + Edo Jinchuuriki) 
-- Edo Itachi/Edo Nagato
1. Itachi/Pain
-- Kabuto
2. Obito (pre-Rinnegan)
-- MS Sasuke
3. Sasori
4. Deidara
-- Orochimaru
5. Kisame
6. Kakuzu
7. Konan
-- Karin
8. Hidan
-- Suigetsu
-- Jugo
9. Zetsu


The ones without numbers are affiliates, former members, or people who just weren't cool enough to be proper members (i.e., Team Taka).


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 26, 2014)

Weapon said:


> 1. Uchiha Obito
> 2. Uzumaki Nagato
> 3. Hoshigaki Kisame
> 4. Orochimaru
> ...



What the actual fuck.

Orochimaru admitted Itachi was stronger than him and we've seen Oro get his ass kicked by Itachi twice.

Kisame basically also admitted that Itachi was stronger than himself and Itachi suggested it too.

Deidara developed C4 specifically to kill Itachi, and it failed against Sasuke.

Sasori's the only one you put above Itachi who isn't expressly inferior to him, yet I think most people would agree he has nothing to compete with Susano'o.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 26, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> What the actual fuck.
> 
> Orochimaru admitted Itachi was stronger than him and we've seen Oro get his ass kicked by Itachi twice.
> 
> ...



What are you talking about, you're taking my list and basing them off One on One stipulations, I'm basing them off raw true ability that _we saw_ and from what was demonstrated by them. 

For your information, that little 5 second spar they had when in Akatsuki[8 years ago when Orochimaru was probably weaker and less developed] and Itachi destroying a weak close to non existent copy of Orochimaru from Sasuke doesn't come close to the conclusion of "Getting his ass kicked"

What? Kisame never mentioned or said that.

Sasori, out sustains Itachi long before he can even have the chance to destroy Sasori's core. You think Sasori's stupid in a bloodlust fight? 

But like I said, no point putting them in one on one stipulations to determine the list. It's stupid.


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 26, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> What the actual fuck.
> 
> Orochimaru admitted Itachi was stronger than him and we've seen Oro get his ass kicked by Itachi twice.
> 
> ...


Yea I would have to agree on all the things he said.


----------



## Violence (Mar 26, 2014)

Itachi
Obito
Pein
Sasori
Konan
Kisame
Deidara
Zetzu
Kakuzu
Hidan


----------



## Sasuke (Mar 26, 2014)

Obito
Itachi
Nagato
Kisame
Orochimaru
Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Zetsu
Hidan


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 27, 2014)

Weapon said:


> What are you talking about, you're taking my list and basing them off One on One stipulations, I'm basing them off raw true ability that _we saw_ and from what was demonstrated by them.



I don't see a difference.



> For your information, that little 5 second spar they had when in Akatsuki[8 years ago when Orochimaru was probably weaker and less developed]



Itachi was 12 or 13, so let's not split hairs on each others' head canon over who was or wasn't as developed at the time. Kishi never made a special point of it so whatever differences existed apparently weren't worth communicating to the readers.



> and Itachi destroying a weak close to non existent copy of Orochimaru from Sasuke doesn't come close to the conclusion of "Getting his ass kicked"



Itachi stabbed Orochimaru with the Totsuka Blade before he could react and sealed him.

And aside from both of these demonstrations, you also have Orochimaru himself openly admitting that Itachi is stronger. Before Fushi Tensei, Sasuke went as far as to say that it wasn't even possible for himself or Orochimaru to beat Itachi.



> What? Kisame never mentioned or said that.



Kisame said he wasn't sure of his own ability to beat Jiraiya, but that Itachi could probably do it. Itachi also said that Kisame would take time to defeat Kakashi and probably come away from it injured, while taking care of Kakashi himself wouldn't take any time. That seems to indicate they both understood Itachi was the stronger man (and it's not like this isn't stupidly obvious anyway).



> Sasori, out sustains Itachi long before he can even have the chance to destroy Sasori's core. You think Sasori's stupid in a bloodlust fight?



Sasori gets smashed like a fly in a bloodlusted fight; Itachi doesn't even let him out of Hiruko before pulverizing him with a Susano'o hand out of nowhere.

Getting at the core is hardly a problem for someone with magic eyes that can see chakra. Susano'o lets him muscle his way to it through any puppet resistance and superior speed lets him strike Sasori down with pin-point accuracy that he can't evade.



> But like I said, no point putting them in one on one stipulations to determine the list. It's stupid.



What's stupid is putting guys like Kisame, Sasori, Deidara, and Orochimaru over someone very obviously much stronger, like Itachi. There is absolutely no rationale that can justify that.


----------



## Arcana (Mar 27, 2014)

Obito
Pein
Itachi
Sasori/Deidara/Kisame
Konan
Kakuzu
Zetsu
Hidan


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Mar 27, 2014)

Nagato
Pain / Obito
Itachi
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kisame
Deidara
Konan
Kakuzu
Zetsu

Itachi isn't weaker than Deidara, that's beyond stupid. Hebi Sasuke is slightly better than  Deidara while Itachi is clearly superior than Hebi Sasuke by miles, that alone tells you all.


----------



## Cord (Mar 27, 2014)

Placing Itachi underneath three people who outright admitted (or implied) inferiority to him is laughable as it severely trashes how the power level amongst those characters are portrayed. I don't think explaining how he'd battle each one of them are even necessary to prove that he's going to overcome them, individually. 

Anyway, I think this has always been how I ranked the Akatsuki members from strongest to weakest:

1. Obito
2. Nagato
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru (without Edo Tensei)
5. Sasori
6. Deidara 
7. Kisame
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10. Hidan
11. Zetsu


----------



## Hokage (Mar 27, 2014)

1. Nagato
2. Obito (without Rinnegan)
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru (with Edo tensei)
5. Kisame
6. Deidara
7. Sasori
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10.Hidan
11. Zetsu


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 27, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> Placing Itachi underneath three people who outright admitted (or implied) inferiority to him is laughable as it severely trashes how the power level amongst those characters are portrayed. I don't think explaining how he'd battle each one of them are even necessary to prove that he's going to overcome them, individually.
> 
> Anyway, I think this has always been how I ranked the Akatsuki members from strongest to weakest:
> 
> ...


Yea i agree, very good list!


----------



## Bontakun (Mar 27, 2014)

Then again, basing Orochimaru's strength on which Uchihas he can or cannot beat is misleading because every time he fought Uchihas he was in greedy mode, trying to preserve their bodies and overcome them mentally. Uchihas (or his own greed) are his special weakness you can say.

I'd still put him lower than healthy Itachi anyway.

1. Nagato
2. Itachi
3. Obito
4. Orochimaru
5. Sasori
6. Kisame
7. Kakuzu
8. Deidara
9. Konan
10. Zetsu
11. Hidan

Explanations:
1. Nagato - was not very smart, but he was very powerful, and could beat any of these other guys in a sudden fight.

2. Itachi - he was so damn powerful, Kishimoto had to gimp him with a disease. Tsukuyomi, Susano'o, and Amaterasu make a perfect combination of control, defense, and offense. But his real strength lies in his information. He knows everybody's weakness. Yes, even YOURS!

3. Obito - despite main villain status, he's mostly defense and planning, not raw power, so he's less than Nagato, and less than Itachi. (Also, if he was above Itachi, and Minato was above him, then that would put Minato above Itachi by translation, which is impossible )

4. Orochimaru - Definitely the most exciting one to watch in a fight. He'd tank all your hits like a boss, and get all in your face with real snakes and blades like a real man. And if you manage to damage him enough he turns into freaky snake things that spout more freaky snake things. But I digress. Orochimaru is like Itachi without as much offensive power. Which he can often make up for by goading the opponent into a rage, or summoning Edo Tensei's. With his toughness he can outlast most, and with his huge collection of jutsu, he can find a way to kill eventually.

5. Sasori - Hard to hit the actual vital target. Lots of offensive capability. You have to have island busting power to destroy his army, which puts him above the remainders on the list. This is probably where I would put Kage level.

------------------
6. Kisame - Such a polite man . But seriously, he can change the battlefield to his favor and render your powerful jutsus useless by absorbing all your chakra. If you notice too late, you're dead.

7. Kakuzu - Basic elemental and medium range melee guy. Oh and he has four lives. And can attack with detached bodyparts. Not bad.

8. Deidara - Explosions. And he can perform fellatio on himself. What were we talking about again?

9. Konan - I wish she'd use colored paper for making bouquets and stuff. So anyway, flight, range, deception. Good weapons for a ninja but nothing to make her legendary level.

10. Zetsu - Has many surprises up his cellulose-made sleeve. Would be difficult for even an elite ninja to fight.

11. Hidan - His ability is too slow and awkward. At best he'd win the first fight in a row of ten, and lose the nine remaining. Unfortunately for him, most of the elite ninjas either have strangely modified bodies or are too quick for him to even land a hit.


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 27, 2014)

Bontakun said:


> Then again, basing Orochimaru's strength on which Uchihas he can or cannot beat is misleading because every time he fought Uchihas he was in greedy mode, trying to preserve their bodies and overcome them mentally. Uchihas (or his own greed) are his special weakness you can say.
> 
> I'd still put him lower than healthy Itachi anyway.
> 
> ...


Like your reasons why, good explanations.


----------



## SharkBomb 4 (Mar 27, 2014)

1. Obito
2. Nagato
3. Itachi
4.Kisame
5. Kakuzu
6. Sasori
7. Deidara
8. Orochimaru
9. Konan
10. Hidan


----------



## Weapon (Mar 27, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't see a difference.
> 
> 
> Itachi was 12 or 13, so let's not split hairs on each others' head canon over who was or wasn't as developed at the time. Kishi never made a special point of it so whatever differences existed apparently weren't worth communicating to the readers.
> ...




Saying that you don't understand a difference just shows I shouldn't really respond to the rest of what you're saying. You're just being one-eyed about this whole thing so there's no point. 

See, you're basing a comparison of Kisame and Itachi off of a battle between Jiraiya. Itachi is the worst match up for Jiraiya unless he starts SM w/ MaPa and Kisame is a more suitable match-up and that's fact based on features. Of course Itachi beats Jiraiya and is the better match-up [Far more convincingly than Kisame] doesn't mean he's better than Kisame though.

You're underestimating one of Sunagakure's only notably strong Shinobi whilst overestimating Itachi's one shot potential.   

*Kisame*: 100% Capacity Samehada Stomp 
*Sasori*: Bloodlust Stomp
*Deidera*: Huge potential shown to take out a lot of high class from what we saw, but being young and letting anger get to him causing him to suicide is what stops him. 

See the problem is, you failed to read my post when I stated from what we saw when they were in Akatsuki. I ranked them, putting Sick Living Itachi in there, I didn't put Edo's or Jin's in because they're technically not classified as Akatsuki anymore. We saw close to zero of what Itachi could do pre sickness and he was definitely sick post - Kakashi / Asuma / Kurenai.

You just need to stop jumping the gun and getting all defensive.






Cordelia said:


> Placing Itachi underneath three people who outright admitted (or implied) inferiority to him is laughable as it severely trashes how the power level amongst those characters are portrayed. I don't think explaining how he'd battle each one of them are even necessary to prove that he's going to overcome them, individually.



It's a bit of a no brainer really to tell that this was targeted at me, could you please answer this: Is this thread a personal rating thread or a critique and compare thread? 

Three people based that on what they heard, not what was actually shown up front for them. Uchiha Obito was the only one to know about his sickness, even though he still considered him a threat he just left Uchiha Itachi to Uchiha Sasuke since it meant he wouldn't have to do anything and it would play out in his favour. Any other members [That I listed], could of contested and killed Itachi if they had that knowledge especially at the time of the Sasuke fight because they all have the ability of holding out 20 minutes.

This isn't a debate, it's a personal rating so stop having a cry about how I rate them. I could go on for ages if that was the case but I'm not going to waste the time to do so especially at the fact that everyone here severely underestimates Kisame for who knows what actual reason. 


--------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Dominus (Mar 27, 2014)

*1*. Obito
*2.* Nagato
*3.* Itachi
*4.* Orochimaru
*5.* Kisame
*6.* Sasori
*7.* Deidara
*8.* Kakuzu
*9.* Konan
*10.* Hidan


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 27, 2014)

1. Obito 
2. Nagato 
3. Itachi
4. Kisame 
5. Kakuzu
6. Konan 
7. Sasori 
8. Deidara
9. Hidan 

Based on OVERALL skills


----------



## Rocky (Mar 27, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Any other members [That I listed], could of contested and killed Itachi if they had that knowledge especially at the time of the Sasuke fight because they all have the ability of holding out 20 minutes.




None of the Akatsuki outside of Obito and Pain can hold up twenty minutes against a serious, unrestricted Itachi. _None._



> This isn't a debate, it's a personal rating so stop having a cry about how I rate them. I could go on for ages if that was the case but I'm not going to waste the time to do so especially at the fact that everyone here severely underestimates Kisame for who knows what actual reason.




Oh boo hoo. We should all be prepared to defend how we rate characters. We should also be open to changing out minds if different arguments make more sense than our own, which is bound to happen with anyone at some point. Stop complaining about it.

Very few underestimate Kisame. He's one of the most fairly rated characters by the majority, and then we have a few people that actually overrate him. Saying he's stronger Itachi is overrating him _HORRIBLY._

Kisame referred to Jiraiya as "on another level." He didn't really have any specific information on him; Kisame's gauge of Jiraiya's power was based solely off the general level of the Legendary Sannin. He then went on to infer that Itachi was on that very level, above his own. It has nothing to do with match-ups or skill sets, and it isn't like Itachi wouldn't kill Kisame by feats anyway.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 27, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Saying that you don't understand a difference just shows I shouldn't really respond to the rest of what you're saying. You're just being one-eyed about this whole thing so there's no point.



Isn't that all the more reason to explain to me what you mean?

If you don't care, then fine.



> See, you're basing a comparison of Kisame and Itachi off of a battle between Jiraiya. Itachi is the worst match up for Jiraiya unless he starts SM w/ MaPa and Kisame is a more suitable match-up and that's fact based on features. Of course Itachi beats Jiraiya and is the better match-up [Far more convincingly than Kisame] doesn't mean he's better than Kisame though.



Itachi isn't a special anti-Jiraiya shinobi; he was better-able to deal with Kakashi, too. That's reason enough to consider him stronger than Kisame, as if it weren't obvious enough already from their abilities (and from all the other people in this thread telling you that it's obvious).



> You're underestimating one of Sunagakure's only notably strong Shinobi whilst overestimating Itachi's one shot potential.



You're not really explaining how.

Question: Itachi activates Susano'o and tries to smash Sasori with it, what happens?

Answer: Sasori dies because Itachi can see his core with Sharingan and is faster than him.

Where's the disconnect?



> *Kisame*: 100% Capacity Samehada Stomp



Yeah, that doesn't really protect him from Mangekyou Sharingan. He has to close his eyes to avoid Tsukuyomi, which leaves him no way to react to Amaterasu or Susano'o. He can't absorb throwing weapons, either.



> *Sasori*: Bloodlust Stomp



Bloodlusted Itachi flattens bloodlusted Sasori like a cockroach.



> *Deidera*: Huge potential shown to take out a lot of high class from what we saw, but being young and letting anger get to him causing him to suicide is what stops him.



Itachi can reach him with crow clones and the Magatama, or Amaterasu if he's close enough. Susano'o deals with any bombs and Sharingan can see C4. That just leaves CO and it's highly doubtful that would breach Susano'o and kill Itachi (Itachi might also be able to seal him before he can detonate).



> See the problem is, you failed to read my post when I stated from what we saw when they were in Akatsuki. I ranked them, putting Sick Living Itachi in there, I didn't put Edo's or Jin's in because they're technically not classified as Akatsuki anymore. We saw close to zero of what Itachi could do pre sickness and he was definitely sick post - Kakashi / Asuma / Kurenai.



Even sick Itachi would ragdoll anybody in Akatsuki not named "Nagato" or "Obito."



> You just need to stop jumping the gun and getting all defensive.



Who's defensive? I'm pressing you to justify your placement.



Rocky said:


> None of the Akatsuki outside of Obito and Pain can hold up twenty minutes against a serious, unrestricted Itachi. _None._



20 minutes?

None of them would last two minutes against Itachi if he were serious about killing them, assuming neutral conditions of engagement.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 27, 2014)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Kisame
Kakazu
Sasori
Diedera
Oro (as he was in Akatuski, presumably with no ET)
Konan
Zetsu 
Hidan


----------



## The Undying (Mar 27, 2014)

Based on overall abilities:

1. Obito Uchiha
2. Pain
3. Itachi Uchiha
4. Orochimaru (without Edo Tensei)
5. Sasori
6. Kisame Hoshigaki
7. Kakuzu
8. Deidara
9. Konan
10. Hidan
11. Zetsu

I like Bontakun's list, even though it's a little different from mine.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 27, 2014)

It's pretty sad, because this was in HoU a casual sub-forum used for casual discussions and personal opinion / rankings then got moved to Konoha Library then here for god knows what reason making me need to go in-depth and justify my list based on what I personally think. 

Anyways

*Nikushimi*, you're not pressing me to justify my rankings you just can't bare the idea that I don't rate Sick Itachi highly. 

My List Is: Demonstrated Overall Ability Based   Not: 1v1 Stipulations [Which is what you're trying to make me correct my list on]

I'll say it one last time, my list is based of Overall Ability and what was shown / demonstrated[When officially classified as Akatsuki]. I didn't count Edo / Jin or else my list or it would be revamped to something that would probably satisfy you but keen in mind:

If "Sick" okay, "Sick Itachi" fought 1-5 on my list and the knowledge was there then he would of been pushed harder and died faster because of the challenge in comparison to Hebi Sasuke. He toyed and mucked around with Sasuke until he could feel he was about to die. Now keep in mind, 1-5 could of pushed him a lot harder and would of been a harder challenge that's just common sense when it comes to comparing 1-5 to Hebi Sasuke. 

Healthy Itachi Potential / Edo IS completely different story. [Which will be added into a re-evaluated list]

Please, Sick Itachi doesn't rag-doll 70% of Akatsuki. You're overblowing his one shot potential / acting like everyone will just instantly fall for MS.

Since this thread is in the Battledome now, I'll re-evaluate my list and add in all other forms of the Akatsuki members[So probably 20 spots] and have an explanation put in for each going into detail.


----------



## Cord (Mar 28, 2014)

Weapon said:


> It's a bit of a no brainer really to tell that this was targeted at me, could you please answer this: Is this thread a personal rating thread or a critique and compare thread?



It doesn't matter what it is, almost anything that's posted in this forum is based on opinions - opinions that others will either agree or disagree with. Whether or not they opt to express their own, is up to them and they have every right to do so. Especially in a thread like this where analysis is necessary.

You can always say: _"This is my personal rating, I do not wish it to be criticized, so fuck off"_ to make it clear that you do not want to start any arguments, but trust me, only few would pay attention to that. Why? Because a thread's purpose is to initiate discussions to begin with and the posts that come after that fill that purpose.



> Three people based that on what they heard, not what was actually shown up front for them.



No.

1. Orochimaru was defeated by Itachi after a failed attempt on stealing his body. He even outright mentioned that Itachi's stronger than him to Kabuto after their failed attempt on invading Konoha.

2. Deidara got one-paneled by Itachi's Genjutsu during their very first encounter. After that, he innovated a method on combating Genjutsu but he still wasn't able to overcome a lesser version of Itachi - Hebi Sasuke and had to use his suicide jutsu in attempt to kill him. . . Which again, accomplished nothing.

3. Kisame, like I said, already acknowledges how his partner is stronger than him based on his statement. Why would we say that? Because he's knowledgeable of the other's abilities considering that they've worked together for quite a while.

They know better as they've seen Itachi's strength with their eyes.



> Any other members [That I listed], could of contested and killed Itachi if they had that knowledge especially at the time of the Sasuke fight because they all have the ability of holding out 20 minutes.



1. Sasori can't kill Itachi with or without knowledge. Granted that he has counters to both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, he doesn't have anything against Susanoo. He basically lacks the offensive power to breach it and lacks the defensive maneuver to elude Itachi's fastest and strongest attacks - namely Yasaka Magatama. The Totsuka isn't even needed here.

2. Either Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu defeats Deidara. His method of combating Genjutsu is futile given that it barely worked on Sasuke's whereas Tsukuyomi is a much superior Genjutsu, one of the ultimate forms of that, even. And he's not evading Amaterasu that would incinerate him nigh instantaneously. He also can't keep on stalling Itachi with Nendo Bunshins as he won't be able to accomplish anything. More so that stalling isn't exactly how Deidara fights.

3. Kisame may be able to counter Amaterasu with Samehada, but he's still susceptible to Tsukuyomi. His Daikodan is truly formidable, but it's not something Susanoo can't defend against.

4. Orochimaru was sealed by the Totsuka as per canon. 



> This isn't a debate, it's a personal rating so stop having a cry about how I rate them. I could go on for ages if that was the case but I'm not going to waste the time to do so especially at the fact that everyone here severely underestimates Kisame for who knows what actual reason.



No one's underestimating Kisame here. You're the one who's overrating him by placing him a tier higher than Itachi when canon speaks otherwise.



Weapon said:


> It's pretty sad, because this was in HoU a casual sub-forum used for casual discussions and personal opinion / rankings then got moved to Konoha Library then here for god knows what reason making me need to go in-depth and justify my list based on what I personally think.



This thread or anything that pretty much discusses how power level works in Naruto belongs in the Naruto Battledome to begin with. This is where this thread should have been posted from the very start. 



> My List Is: Demonstrated Overall Ability Based   Not: 1v1 Stipulations [Which is what you're trying to make me correct my list on]
> 
> I'll say it one last time, my list is based of Overall Ability and what was shown / demonstrated[When officially classified as Akatsuki]. I didn't count Edo / Jin or else my list or it would be revamped to something that would probably satisfy you but keen in mind:



And it doesn't make sense. Because both factors go hand in hand. How is their overall ability not related on their performance in a battle? How we're evaluating a hypothetical match have always been and will always be based on their demonstrated potentials and abilities as dictated by feats and portrayal.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 28, 2014)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Oro|Kisame| MS Sasuke 
Deidara 
Kakuzu 
Sasori 
Konan 
Jugo|Suigestu| Karin( chakra chains)
Hidan
Zetsu


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Konan, Orochimaru, and Zetsu are difficult to rank. 

Konan - Her portrayal against Jiriaya was lack luster, but it was Jiriaya & he did have both knowledge of her weaknesses as well as the perfect means to exploit. Outside of this her portrayal has been very good. Her paper clone alone was able to lay siege to Konoha alongside the Pain paths and even duel with the Abarumes. Her portrayal against Obito was a ridiculously favorable one, even counting the fact that she had prior preparation; in-fact Obito of all people seemed to acknowledge her to a certain extent in that battle as well. Than it is implied she put that Genjutsu on the amefodder. She could really be anywhere from weakest to the strongest; really hard to call, since Kishi didn't spend enough time on explaining her capabilities.

Zetsu - is tough because we never got to see him fight and there aren't many statements referencing his strength ether. All that we have is that he held his own against the Daimyo guards off panel until the addition of the Naruto clone, which could suggest he is quite capable, or could suggest very little if he was just running away the whole time. Again could be anywhere from the weakest to one of the strongest.

Orochimaru is tough because it's hard to know how the author wants us to see Edo-Tensei, is it something like Paper-Ocean that is more situational or is it part of Orochimaru's consistent power. Than there is the question of how much has he benefited from increased intel and Hashi DNA. Really could range anywhere from bellow Itachi, to only second to Juubito.

Excluding those 3, the rest are fairly easy to rank by their portrayal:

1. Obito
2. Nagato
3. Itachi
4. Kisame
5. Sasori
6. Kakuzu
7. Deidara
8. Hidan

Hopefully coming events or at least DB IV will help clear up any confusion with Orochimaru, Zetsu, and Konan.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Hopefully coming events or at least DB IV will help clear up any confusion with Orochimaru, Zetsu, and Konan.



Similar problem with me, in my original list where I ranked them when they were actually classified as Akatsuki I put Orochimaru up there but now in the new list I'm composing, since we haven't seen what he's actually become now I have no idea where to put Orochimaru [Revived]. I think given what we know, the capabilities of his newly acquired power ups and his knowledge then he can pretty much be close to the top.

The thing is with Konan, all we saw her do was be on par with a non-bloodlust / serious Tobi then pretty much use a suicide move [Chakra Draining] made specifically for him. Now, if all that power wasn't countered by Izanagi and was distributed evenly in a proper battle against someone else how would she fair. It's too hard to call. She did close to nothing against Jiraiya also since Pain was ready to step in and take over.

I hope we see a new DB, I bet they will release one after the series.


----------



## animeboy1 (Mar 28, 2014)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Orochimaru without edos
Kisame
Sasori
Kakuzu
Deidara
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


----------



## Ersa (Mar 28, 2014)

*Akatsuki God Tier*
Juubito/Rinnegan Tobi with Neo Pein

*Akatsuki Top Tier*
Nagato
Edo Itachi
Pre-Rinnegan Tobi

*Akatsuki High Tier*
Sick Itachi
Taka Sasuke
Orochimaru

*Akatsuki Mid Tier*
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Konan

*Akatsuki Low Tier*
Kakuzu
Hidan
Zetsu


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Similar problem with me, in my original list where I ranked them when they were actually classified as Akatsuki I put Orochimaru up there but now in the new list I'm composing, since we haven't seen what he's actually become now I have no idea where to put Orochimaru [Revived]. I think given what we know, the capabilities of his newly acquired power ups and his knowledge then he can pretty much be close to the top.
> 
> The thing is with Konan, all we saw her do was be on par with a non-bloodlust / serious Tobi then pretty much use a suicide move [Chakra Draining] made specifically for him. Now, if all that power wasn't countered by Izanagi and was distributed evenly in a proper battle against someone else how would she fair. It's too hard to call. She did close to nothing against Jiraiya also since Pain was ready to step in and take over.
> 
> I hope we see a new DB, I bet they will release one after the series.


Agreed about Orochimaru obviously 

When it comes to Konan, I see where your coming from, but on one hand we have your perspective on the other we have Konan's paper clone being able to fight multiple Jonin at once and Obito seemingly hyping her.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

1. Obito
2. Nagato
3. Pain
4. Itachi
5. Orochimaru
6. Sasori
7. Deidara
8. Kisame
9. Kakuzu
10. Hidan
11. Konan
12. Zetsu


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

They are hard to rank super well since they have different strengths.
So, I'll put "High End" and "Low End".. the difference between best showing and their bad hair days.


Orochimaru (High End)
Obito (High End)
White Zetsu (High End)
Nagato (High End)
Konan (High End)
Deidara (High End) 
Itachi
Kisame
Nagato (Low End)
Kakuzu (High End)
Orochimaru (Low End)
Sasori 
Black Zetsu
Obito (Low End)
Kakuzu (Low End)
Konan (Low End)
Hidan (High End)
Deidara (Low End) 
Hidan (Low End)
White Zetsu (Low End)

Explaination:
Note that I use "consistent" to mean primarily their performance consistency, not necassarily "lol Kishi can't decide!" Some may have a weakness that offsets them, or a strength that is an outlier.

Orochimaru, Obito, Nagato, Konan and Deidara all have better high end showings than Itachi, but all lost to Itachi on a bad day (except Konan, whose A-game lost to Obito's A-game.) All of them thus, have a Low End below Itachi.

Itachi didn't have any humiliating defeats. Kisame was pretty consistent too.(I was tempted to give him a High End above Itachi and a Low end below.)

Kakuzu can accomplish alot, but his lose gives him a pretty low low-end Ranking. His best showing isn't beating Itachi or Kisame still. 

Sasori was mildly inconsistent, but High End is still under Oro Low End and Sasori Low End is still better than. I'm not counting "Puppetless Edo Sasori" in Low End, but that would be below Hidan Low End if I did.

Deidara and Hidan probably have the dumbest loses. Hidan, however, barely makes up for it. The most he can do is pressure Immortals Arc Kakashi, tank and his ritual. 
1. Kakashi in that Arc could be pressured by any Akatsuki member.
2. He can be decapitated. If not for Kakuzu, Asuma, Shikamaru, Izumo and Kotetsu would have easily defeated him. His tanking has limited application.
3. The ritual can't kill many that Sasori's poison can't, and Sasori's poison is much easier to use and hit with.


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 28, 2014)

Reznor said:


> They are hard to rank super well since they have different strengths.
> So, I'll put "High End" and "Low End".. the difference between best showing and their bad hair days.
> 
> 
> ...


Really like the high end, low end type of answer, nice.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 28, 2014)

Current Orochimaru w/ Edo Tensei





Immobile Nagato w/ GM and Pein Rikudou
Sick Itachi

MS Obito


Kisame

Sasori
Deidara
Kakuzu/Konan


Hidan
Zetsu


----------



## Super Chief (Mar 28, 2014)

lol @ anyone putting Konan near the end of their list. Utter horse shit. She could stomp Itachi, get real people. Same goes for Deidara.

Also, it's clear as fuck Obito and Nagato > Itachi. That includes pre jinchūriki status for Obito.


----------



## Bontakun (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Isn't that all the more reason to explain to me what you mean?
> 
> If you don't care, then fine.
> 
> ...





Cordelia said:


> It doesn't matter what it is, almost anything that's posted in this forum is based on opinions - opinions that others will either agree or disagree with. Whether or not they opt to express their own, is up to them and they have every right to do so. Especially in a thread like this where analysis is necessary.
> 
> You can always say: _"This is my personal rating, I do not wish it to be criticized, so fuck off"_ to make it clear that you do not want to start any arguments, but trust me, only few would pay attention to that. Why? Because a thread's purpose is to initiate discussions to begin with and the posts that come after that fill that purpose.
> 
> ...



I think you guys are underestimating Sasori in a match against Itachi.

Sasori has a very non-standard body that he can keep far from the action zone, so raw offense Magatama wouldn't work.

As for sharingan being able to detect his true body, there's no evidence of this. He could probably thread his chakra strings through a chain of puppets, making it harder to trace back to him.

He has a Kage-level human puppet. That's enough to defend against cheap tricks like Susano'o smash.

And Sasori doesn't have eyes and ears to be put under genjutsu.

It will be a long fight. With a small possibility that Itachi gets stabbed by a stray puppet. One stab is all it takes.









Reznor said:


> They are hard to rank super well since they have different strengths.
> So, I'll put "High End" and "Low End".. the difference between best showing and their bad hair days.
> 
> 
> ...



That's a useful and creative way to rank these guys. I like it!

What's white zetsu's high end doing so high up though


----------



## Krippy (Mar 28, 2014)

Cordelia has the best list I'd say.


Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Orochimaru/Sasori
Kisame
Konan
Kakuzu
Deidara
Hidan
Zetsu



Super Chief said:


> lol @ anyone putting Konan near the end of their list. Utter horse shit. She could stomp Itachi, get real people. Same goes for Deidara.
> 
> Also, it's clear as fuck Obito and Nagato > Itachi. That includes pre jinchūriki status for Obito.



I wouldn't go that far. She's at best Mid-kage level and at worst an elite jonin level depending on how strong you think she is. Itachi is out of her league but she's definitely stronger than deidara. 

But yeah, obito and nagato are clearly superior to itachi.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 28, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> lol @ anyone putting Konan near the end of their list. Utter horse shit. She could stomp Itachi, get real people. Same goes for Deidara.




lol No. Itachi messes around in base for a bit, and if by some miracle Konan avoids all of Itachi's different illusion casting methods, he activates the Mangekyou Sharingan and lights her skull on fire.

Deidara likewise looses to Amaterasu, while Susano'o provides any necessary defense.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 28, 2014)

Krippy said:


> but she's definitely stronger than deidara.




How? Even if his standard bombs don't kill her, C4 definitely will.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2014)

1. Tobi
2. Nagato
3. Itachi
4. Kisame
5. Sasori
6. Orochimaru
7. Kakuzu
8. Deidara
9. Zetsu
10.Konan
11. Hidan


----------



## J★J♥ (Mar 28, 2014)

Hidan is probably most dangerous guy in Akatsuki why are you ranking him so low ?
If he was in current war he would probably oneshot Juubidara through all the blood guy made him bleed.


----------



## Senjuclan (Mar 28, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Hidan is probably most dangerous guy in Akatsuki why are you ranking him so low ?
> If he was in current war he would probably oneshot Juubidara through all the blood guy made him bleed.



I rank him low because he is a one trick pony with poor defense. Is his ability broken? Yes but less so than the abilities of other akatsuki members. Even Konan would school him. That says it all


----------



## Jagger (Mar 28, 2014)

1. Rinnegan Obito plus the Six Jinchuuriki.
2. Nagato.
3. Itachi.
4. Kisame.
5. Sasori/Kakuzu.
6. Deidara.
7. Konan.
8. Zetsu (not the Spiral One).
9. Hidan.

I honestly don't know where to place Orochimaru, but I'd say he's around Kisame's level of power without Edo Tensei, With it, he's easily among the power of the strongest such as Obito or Nagato.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Mar 28, 2014)

1.Obito
2.Orochimaru
3.Pain/Itachi
4.Konan/Zetsu 
5.Kisame/Sasori
6.Kakuzu
7.Deidara
8.Hidan


----------



## Jagger (Mar 28, 2014)

With Zetsu, you most likely refer to the Spiral One, right?


----------



## Krippy (Mar 28, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How? Even if his standard bombs don't kill her, C4 definitely will.



Konan can kill him long before C4 gets prepped. Neutral knowledge means she swarms him with paper and stabs him in the neck. Deidara's strength lies with mid-long range. Get him with a strong attack in close quarters and he gets wrek'd.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 28, 2014)

Super Chief said:


> lol @ anyone putting Konan near the end of their list. Utter horse shit. She could stomp Itachi, get real people. Same goes for Deidara.
> 
> Also, it's clear as fuck Obito and Nagato > Itachi. That includes pre jinchūriki status for Obito.



I'd be more than willing to put Konan higher up but as others have said her only two real showing are opposite sides of the spectrum (i.e., getting fodderized against Jiraiya on one side and being hyped against Obito on the other). 

My main problem with ranking her higher tho is in her by far best showing against MS Obito she needed massive prep and needed to lure Obito to a change of scenery to have a chance. In what other situations is she going to be this lethal?

And sorry but Itachi is easiy top 3 in Akatsuki after Obito and Nagato/Pain; unless you count Oro with improved ET (then Itachi moves down to 4th) but I wouldn't since that's not who he was when he actually was in Akatsuiki


----------



## fior fior (Mar 28, 2014)

Juubito








Oorochimaru (Edo Tensei Hokage)

Obito (Rinnegan)



Nagato





Itachi

Obito (MS)



Oorochimaru
Kisame

Kakuzu

Konan
Deidara
Sasori

Hidan
Zetsu

The distance between the names is proportional to the difference in strength.


----------



## Cord (Mar 28, 2014)

Bontakun said:


> I think you guys are underestimating Sasori in a match against Itachi.



Not really. I already conceded that Sasori's got effective counters to both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. 

Though for Amaterasu, Sasori can't keep on switching bodies forever if all of his puppets get incinerated. So there's still a chance that Amaterasu can kill him or at least, render him ineffective.



> Sasori has a very non-standard body that he can keep far from the action zone, so raw offense Magatama wouldn't work.



Yasaka Magatama is Itachi's strongest long range attack and has reached as far as this. Sasori hasn't fought nor kept any of his enemies at bay farther than that. 



> As for sharingan being able to detect his true body, there's no evidence of this. He could probably thread his chakra strings through a chain of puppets, making it harder to trace back to him.



Not contesting this. That said, if there are no more puppets left for Sasori to inhabit, then he'd be close to useless.



> He has a Kage-level human puppet. That's enough to defend against cheap tricks like Susano'o smash.



Susanoo smash is never a cheap trick. Satetsu may be a potent defense and offense but it's still controlled by a puppet that is still vulnerable to anything with a considerable amount of offensive power. Even a generic Katon should suffice in destroying the Sandaime Kazekage puppet. While Susanoo defends from those kinds of attacks. Or Itachi could just constantly elude them himself, given that he's got the perceptive ability and speed to do so.



> It will be a long fight. With a small possibility that Itachi gets stabbed by a stray puppet. One stab is all it takes.



Let's not forget that it took a while for Sasori to put a scratch on both Chiyo and Sakura. Someone with a superior speed, reflexes, defense and offense than both of those aforementioned characters would fair much better against Sasori.


----------



## Tarot (Mar 28, 2014)

1.Obito
2.Nagato
3.Itachi/MS Obito
4.Orochimaru
5-7.Kisame/Deidara/Sasori
8.Kakuzu
9.Konan
10.Hidan

I won't count zetsu since his strength is vague and he usually doesn't fight


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

> What's white zetsu's high end doing so high up though


Being 100,000 Zetsu, fast long distance travel, bypassing many modes of detection.
Think about how few Akatsuchi could stand up to 10s of thousands of ninja.

Of course, a single zetsu in combat is chumptastic, so its got the lowest low end.


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

I suppose I could have put Madara, Juubito, Juudara, Sasuke, Kabuto, Juugo, Karin, Suigetsu, Yahiko and Sasori's spies on the list


----------



## Tarot (Mar 28, 2014)

Reznor said:


> I suppose I could have put Madara, Juubito, Juudara, Sasuke, Kabuto, Juugo, Karin, Suigetsu, Yahiko and Sasori's spies on the list


what about Spiral Y̶a̶m̶a̶t̶o̶ Zetsu?


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 28, 2014)

Death Arcana said:


> 1.Obito
> 2.Nagato
> 3.Itachi/MS Obito
> 4.Orochimaru
> ...


Nice list, totally agree.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 28, 2014)

In overall power as in how they would fare against the majority of other naruto characters that are worth mentioning i would probably put it something like this. 

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Orochimaru with some decent Edos. 
Kisame
Regular Orochimaru.
Deidara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Hidan
Zetsu.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

If by decent edos you mean the current edo hokage, then that places him far above all the rest.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 28, 2014)

1 - Itachi
2 - Pain
3 - Obito (pre war arc)
4 - Deidara
5 - Orochimaru
6 - Kisame
7 - Sasori
8 - Kakuzu
9 - Hidan
10 - Konan
11 - Zetsu


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Disregarding Obito, Pain would mop the floor with Itachi easily.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 28, 2014)

From the original line up:

1. Nagato (flat out stated to be the strongest of Akatsuki and Obito himself called him invincible)
2. Uchiha Obito (Kamui + Mokuton + Izanagi)
3. Uchiha Itachi (Mastery of the Sharingan, best genjutsu outside of Nagato and Obito, and access to Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o)
4. Sasori (Took down the strongest Kazekage until Gaara came into his own and weaponized him, deadly poison, genjutsu immunity, and puppet mastery to the point he wields 100 puppets at once)
5. Hoshigaki Kisame (Can fight out of his weight class, best Suiton user since Tobirama, Samehada can absorb visible chakra and make him stronger)
6. Deidara (Flight as well as the ability to literally disintegrate whoever doesn't have a dojutsu AND Raiton with C4 which is breathed in microbombs, can destroy cities with C3 or flip island-sized turtles with it, and took down Kazekage Jinchuriki Gaara and Isobu)
7. Kakuzu (Five Elements at the same time, impressive taijutsu and speed)
8. Konan (Higher with Prep, virtually immune to most damage while in her paper form)
9. Hidan (Immortal, good taijutsu, lacks other options)
10. Zetsu (Self explanatory, he was Akatsuki's spy not frontline fighter)


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 28, 2014)

Vice said:


> Disregarding Obito, Pain would mop the floor with Itachi easily.



Yeah sure... Just like Nagato did.. oh wait.


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

Edo Itachi defeated Nagato.

That's why I said nagato high end > itachi > low end Nagato


----------



## Trojan (Mar 28, 2014)

1- Nagato. 

He has the most raw power out of them, and figuring out his jutsus is not necessarily going to make him lose
or put him in a disadvantage. 

2- Obito.

His Kamui probably will help him with more cases than Nagato, but figuring out how his Kamui work is not that hard. Although dealing with it is indeed that hard. 

3- Itachi.

his MS, and other stuff should make him more powerful that the others.

4- Kisame. 

He has huge jutsus, his 1000 shark shouldn't have problems to destroy Sasori's 100 puppets. However, he will lose against Deidara since the later use his earth jutsus, and can send them under water to fight as well.

5- Kakuzu.

He has all 5 elements, and they have such a great AOE, not to mention he can harden his skin, so Sasori's swords and puppets shouldn't be that hard to destroy, or to protect himself from them. He also has his lightning jutsus to deal with Deidara's earth jutsus.

6- Sasori.

Well, Deidara already admitted that Sasori is stronger than him, so that's that. 

7- Deidara.

His long rang jutsus- and the jutsus that has a great AOE shouldn give him the edge against the others. 

8- Konan.

Although her strongest jutsu may very much put her in the 3rd place, but she need to prepare it first. Other than that, she did not really show all that much for me to put her higher. 

9- Hidan.

Has only one jutsu, and he admitted to be the slowest out of them. Not to mention he is not a long-rank fighter, so that's that.

10- Zetsu

nuff said.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Edo Itachi defeated Nagato.
> 
> That's why I said nagato high end > itachi > low end Nagato


Edo Itachi + B  + Naruto defeated Nagato. Itachi's high end would be being called stronger than Orochimaru; he's done nothing else greater than that on his own.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah sure... Just like Nagato did.. oh wait.



Nagato couldn't walk, was being used like a puppet and was against three high tiers, one of which (Itachi) wasnt even a target.

Please learn to read the manga properly thanks.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 28, 2014)

Vice said:


> Nagato couldn't walk, was being used like a puppet and was against three high tiers, one of which (Itachi) wasnt even a target.
> 
> Please learn to read the manga properly thanks.



+ his fake Rinnegan as well. U_U


----------



## Crow (Mar 28, 2014)

It goes like this

Obito
Itachi
Nagato
Kisame
Konan with Prep
Kazuku
Deidera
Hidan 
Zetzu


----------



## joshhookway (Mar 28, 2014)

1. Tobi/Obito
2. Nagato/Pein
3. Deidara
4. Itachi
5. Orochimaru without edo
6. Kisame
7. Kakuzu
8. Konan
9. Sasori
10. Zetsu
11. Hidan


----------



## Crow (Mar 28, 2014)

zetsu over hidan why


----------



## joshhookway (Mar 28, 2014)

Zetsu beats Hidan in a fight.


----------



## Brandon1144 (Mar 28, 2014)

Knight of Chaos said:


> zetsu over hidan why


Yea Hidan would beat Zetsu any day lol


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Brandon1144 said:


> Yea Hidan would beat Zetsu any day lol


This is completely baseless. By portrayal White-Zetsu sporing the Kages and Black Zetsu holding his own against the Daimyo guards, even if he was just being a sneaking sob, are still much better portrayal than Hidan got, who would have been finished off instantly by Shikkamaru if not for Kakuzu being there. Not to mention Zetsu was able to defend himself against KCM-Naruto's FRS and was even able to be cut in half without issue, demonstrating Hidan's ritual wouldn't even work on him. Really don't see any way one can believe Hidan is better than Zetsu or would beat Zetsu.

Edit: Actually Zetsu doesn't even bleed


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

Turrin: that's true, although they were both Edo, which throws off the results as well.

I do think Nagato would win in a fight, but I could see Nagato being caught off guard and losing.
Low end Nagato may be better than I gave him credit for, as even on a bad day, he's still got Preta and Deva skills to counter almost everything Itachi does. Genjutsu could do it though, and I could see Nagato making a mistake and losing. I give it to Nagato 8/10 at least, but I dont see Itachi with his pants down as far off as Nagato. Just about any situation I see Itachi in, he'll throw up Susanoo and give Nags a fight.
I just think Itachi is most consistent and doesn't get screwed over with bad showings.


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

Knight of Chaos said:


> It goes like this
> 
> Obito
> Itachi
> ...



How are Itachi and Kisame surviving 600 billion exploding tags?


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

Vice said:


> Disregarding Obito, Pain would mop the floor with Itachi easily.



Pain didn't even mop the floor with Jiraiya or Naruto easily; Itachi would give him a fight, regardless of who would win.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 3. Uchiha Itachi (Mastery of the Sharingan, best genjutsu outside of Nagato and Obito, and access to Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and Susano'o)



Obito doesn't have any Genjutsu as good as Itachi's and lol @ Nagato even being considered competition; the guy has no feats unless you count the mental trap Inoichi ran into, which we still don't know for sure was Nagato's.

Itachi speculated that his own Genjutsu was the one Kabuto was planning to make use of at the right moment:

this

Nagato later asked why Itachi's Genjutsu wasn't being made use of:

this

Nagato's own Genjutsu wasn't even mentioned by either of them. He's not even in the same league as Itachi.



Turrin said:


> Edo Itachi + B  + Naruto defeated Nagato. Itachi's high end would be being called stronger than Orochimaru; he's done nothing else greater than that on his own.



Naruto and B didn't do anything except help destroy Chibaku Tensei, which Edo Nagato got a chance to use while Itachi had to rescue them.



Bontakun said:


> I think you guys are underestimating Sasori in a match against Itachi.
> 
> Sasori has a very non-standard body that he can keep far from the action zone, so raw offense Magatama wouldn't work.
> 
> As for sharingan being able to detect his true body, there's no evidence of this. He could probably thread his chakra strings through a chain of puppets, making it harder to trace back to him.



Chakra strings won't conceal the chakra in Sasori's actual core.



> He has a Kage-level human puppet. That's enough to defend against cheap tricks like Susano'o smash.



It's not really a cheap trick so much as brute force that is totally out of Sasori's weight class.



> And Sasori doesn't have eyes and ears to be put under genjutsu.
> 
> It will be a long fight. With a small possibility that Itachi gets stabbed by a stray puppet. One stab is all it takes.



With proper intel, there would be effectively zero risk of Itachi getting poisoned. Susano'o protects him from everything and spells instant death for Sasori upon contact.



Rocky said:


> lol No. Itachi messes around in base for a bit, and if by some miracle Konan avoids all of Itachi's different illusion casting methods, he activates the Mangekyou Sharingan and lights her skull on fire.



The world feels like it's made of sunshine when you imagine that. 



Legendary Itachi said:


> Konan or Deidara can stomp Itachi.
> 
> Itachi is severly underestimated nowadays.



Someone really should've posted that in the overrated/underrated thread before it got locked. Would've made all those people saying Itachi never gets underrated look pretty bad. 



Weapon said:


> It's pretty sad, because this was in HoU a casual sub-forum used for casual discussions and personal opinion / rankings then got moved to Konoha Library then here for god knows what reason making me need to go in-depth and justify my list based on what I personally think.



Again, you don't have to if you don't want to.

But strength rankings aren't really a matter of opinion since your opinion wouldn't objectively change who is stronger than who... It's up to people to synthesize evidence the best they can and come to a reasonable conclusion, but that's not what opinions are. An opinion would be, like..."I think Deidara's a shitty character."



> Anyways
> 
> *Nikushimi*, you're not pressing me to justify my rankings you just can't bare the idea that I don't rate Sick Itachi highly.



I can bear it very easily. I'm just calling on you to justify your assessment because it's ridiculous and I can prove it objectively wrong very easily. 



> My List Is: Demonstrated Overall Ability Based   Not: 1v1 Stipulations [Which is what you're trying to make me correct my list on]



First you'll have to explain what "overall ability based" means, because I'm pretty sure going by 1v1 feats is not exclusive to overall ability unless there are special advantages/disadvantages that determine the outcome. Which there really aren't, in the case of Jiraiya and Kakashi.

Go by portrayal. Go by other feats. The result is still that Itachi grossly outclasses Kisame.



> I'll say it one last time, my list is based of Overall Ability and what was shown / demonstrated[When officially classified as Akatsuki]. I didn't count Edo / Jin or else my list or it would be revamped to something that would probably satisfy you but keen in mind:
> 
> If "Sick" okay, "Sick Itachi" fought 1-5 on my list and the knowledge was there then he would of been pushed harder and died faster because of the challenge in comparison to Hebi Sasuke. He toyed and mucked around with Sasuke until he could feel he was about to die. Now keep in mind, 1-5 could of pushed him a lot harder and would of been a harder challenge that's just common sense when it comes to comparing 1-5 to Hebi Sasuke.



Itachi was trying to lose to Hebi Sasuke; Obito made it clear that he would have won if he had really intended to. Itachi would have no reason to lose to any of the Akatsuki.

Incidentally, Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara, who you placed over Itachi.



> Please, Sick Itachi doesn't rag-doll 70% of Akatsuki. You're overblowing his one shot potential / acting like everyone will just instantly fall for MS.



You still haven't explained how Sasori is supposed to deal with Susano'o, or how Deidara deals with Amaterasu or crow clones, or how Kisame and Orochimaru avoid getting summarily mind-raped or impaled (which is pretty much exactly what happened to Orochimaru on two separate occasions, in that order).


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

Reznor said:


> I dont see Itachi with his pants down as far off as Nagato. Just about any situation I see Itachi in, he'll throw up Susanoo and give Nags a fight.
> I just think Itachi is most consistent and doesn't get screwed over with bad showings.



I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees and appreciates this.

Itachi's performance has definitely been more consistently good, with no significant screw-ups to speak of.

Of course, Edo Nagato was being controlled by Jobbuto...



Reznor said:


> How are Itachi and Kisame surviving 600 billion exploding tags?



Itachi could cast Amaterasu and burn any of the tags in his immediate area, while using Susano'o to protect himself if he needs to.

Kisame could probably just spit out a large volume of water to wash them away from himself so they detonate elsewhere, or he could even blow them away with Daikoudan assuming that a body of water is already present (which it would be if Konan's paper bomb trench is available).


EDIT: And in regards to Hidan vs. Zetsu, Hidan probably wins due to actually having a big-ass weapon and probably being physically superior to Zetsu.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 28, 2014)

Wait people are actually putting _Itachi_ over Nagato? Are Itachi fans' really this desperate to show 'SEE OUR CHARACTER IS DA STRONGEST IN AKATSUKI!'?


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

I don't agree with putting Itachi over Nagato, but it's not exactly happening a lot either.

You have more people putting Deidara over Itachi. And that's pretty bad.

I put Itachi and Pain on the same level, just like I did for Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato. 

EDIT: And in Reznor's case, he was talking about low end showings versus high end showings. Since not everyone can fight at 100% efficiency with absolute consistency, and since Nagato seems more prone to a poor performance than Itachi...both of which I agree with. So, like...if I understand him correctly, he was saying Itachi can beat Nagato on a really good day (or a really bad day I guess, in Nagato's case).


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Turrin: that's true, although they were both Edo, which throws off the results as well.


I don't see how it throws things off. Nagato was weaker as an Edo; Itachi was stronger as an Edo. Even still Itachi needed help to prevail. The portrayal couldn't get any clearer.



> I do think Nagato would win in a fight, but I could see Nagato being caught off guard and losing.


How is some one who has detailed knowledge of Itachi's capabilities going to be caught off guard?



> Low end Nagato may be better than I gave him credit for, as even on a bad day, he's still got Preta and Deva skills to counter almost everything Itachi does. Genjutsu could do it though, and I could see Nagato making a mistake and losing. I give it to Nagato 8/10 at least, but I dont see Itachi with his pants down as far off as Nagato. Just about any situation I see Itachi in, he'll throw up Susanoo and give Nags a fight.


Itachi went up against Nagato and Genjutsu was a non-factor, that combined with Kishi very clearly portraying Nagato as superior to Itachi, should tell us that Itachi isn't defeating Nagato with Genjutsu.

If Susano'o could protect Itachi from Nagato's Jutsu, he wouldn't have needed Killer B and Naruto's help to bust CT. Again that should tell us Nagato can handle Susano'o.



> I just think Itachi is most consistent and


Nagato's displays have consistently been better than Itachi's. I mean what display from Nagato is beneath a display of Itachi's? 



> doesn't get screwed over with bad showings.


You'd have to define a bad showing for me, as that is pretty subjective.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> EDIT: And in Reznor's case, he was talking about low end showings versus high end showings. Since not everyone can fight at 100% efficiency with absolute consistency, and since Nagato seems more prone to a poor performance than Itachi...both of which I agree with. So, like...if I understand him correctly, he was saying Itachi can beat Nagato on a really good day (or a really bad day I guess, in Nagato's case).



Except that Itachi's best day against Nagato required the assistance of two other high tiers against an immobile puppet with a restricted Rinnegan who also had the additional advantage of not even being targeted, allowing him free reign to do whatever while others took all the heat. This isn't even including the extra buffs Itachi had as an edo that he couldn't possibly have while alive.

It's ludicrous to believe that Itachi on his own could defeat Nagato, even at his worst.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how it throws things off. Nagato was weaker as an Edo; Itachi was stronger as an Edo.



Nagato was stronger as an Edo Tensei, just like Itachi and everyone else. He even absorbed Killer B's chakra and was restored to his "prime."



> Even still Itachi needed help to prevail. The portrayal couldn't get any clearer.



You may as well look at the whole picture instead of just a piece of it... Naruto and B only helped destroy Chibaku Tensei while it was Itachi who took care of Kabuto's incompetence and did the actual sealing. Furthermore, this all transpired in like one chapter, so Nagato got outclassed and stomped pretty badly.



> How is some one who has detailed knowledge of Itachi's capabilities going to be caught off guard?



Having knowledge of what Itachi can do doesn't mean Nagato can read minds or anticipate his actions.



> Itachi went up against Nagato and Genjutsu was a non-factor,



Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto...

And he still ended up losing, so Genjutsu wasn't even necessary.



> that combined with Kishi very clearly portraying Nagato as superior to Itachi, should tell us that Itachi isn't defeating Nagato with Genjutsu.



Defeating Nagato with pure Genjutsu is a pretty big stretch, but using Genjutsu to get the upperhand against Nagato and exploit an opportunity to land a decisive hit is pretty reasonable.



> If Susano'o could protect Itachi from Nagato's Jutsu, he wouldn't have needed Killer B and Naruto's help to bust CT. Again that should tell us Nagato can handle Susano'o.



What? Chibaku Tensei wouldn't have done anything to Itachi except trap him until the Jutsu ended or Kabuto ended Edo Tensei, with or without Susano'o; he was immortal, just like Nagato.



> Nagato's displays have consistently been better than Itachi's.



...Really? I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Itachi has consistently had good performances where he was in control of the situation, even when he lost to Sasuke; Naruto simply outsmarted Pain at every turn and Kabuto was totally incompetent at controlling Edo Nagato.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

Vice said:


> Except that Itachi's best day against Nagato required the assistance of two other high tiers against an immobile puppet with a restricted Rinnegan who also had the additional advantage of not even being targeted, allowing him free reign to do whatever while others took all the heat.
> 
> It's ludicrous to believe that Itachi on his own could defeat Nagato, even at his worst.



You only say that because you're refusing to imagine the circumstances where Itachi can win.

He had already defeated Nagato with Amaterasu the instant he was freed from Edo Tensei; if he had sealed him then instead of turning his back on him, it would've been over. But Itachi evidently didn't know about Shinra Tensei or at least its ability to disperse Amaterasu, which allowed Nagato to make a comeback while Itachi was distracted.

And lol @ being taken hostage counting as "assistance."


----------



## Ersa (Mar 28, 2014)

Nagato was not weaker as an Edo. Seriously what is wrong with NBD?

Kishimoto confirmed that weakened KCM Naruto is much stronger then *Pain* Arc SM Naruto. Guess who manhandled a superior version of Naruto with Killer B backing him up? Edo Nagato.

Not to mention he's mobile enough to chase down Killer B, has regeneration on top of being an Uzumaki tank and regenerating chakra.

Prime Nagato >= Edo Nagato >> Six Paths of Pain >= Wheelchair Nagato.

Prime Nagato doesn't exist in the context of this manga as when he was young his Rinnegan mastery was worse. Canonically speaking, Edo Nagato is by far the strongest Nagato.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Pain didn't even mop the floor with Jiraiya or Naruto easily;



Sure he did. Once all six targeted Jiraiya, he was fodderized pretty quickly. And Naruto was forced into using his six-tailed form against Deva Path alone.



> Itachi would give him a fight, regardless of who would win.



Pain would win.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

^What Ersatz said.

Adding onto that, Naruto explicitly stated that the speed and power of Nagato's Jutsu were on a completely different level from Pain's.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> You only say that because you're refusing to imagine the circumstances where Itachi can win.



I'm not required to because he can't.



> He had already defeated Nagato with Amaterasu the instant he was freed from Edo Tensei; if he had sealed him then instead of turning his back on him, it would've been over. But Itachi evidently didn't know about Shinra Tensei or at least its ability to disperse Amaterasu, which allowed Nagato to make a comeback while Itachi was distracted.



He could either use Shinra Tensei, like he did, or simply absorb it like Madara did. Nagato was also incapable of attacking Itachi based on edo programming.



> And lol @ being taken hostage counting as "assistance."



Taking the brunt of 100% of Nagato's attention assisted Itachi.

Helping to destroy Chibaku Tensei assisted Itachi.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Nagato was not weaker as an Edo. Seriously what is wrong with NBD?
> 
> Kishimoto confirmed that weakened KCM Naruto is much stronger then *Pain* Arc SM Naruto. Guess who manhandled a superior version of Naruto with Killer B backing him up? Edo Nagato.
> 
> ...



Except that the manga specifically stated that the Rinnegan is weaker when used by an edo.

It's still a weaker version of Nagato vs. a stronger version of Itachi.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 28, 2014)

To confirm anything, Nagato's mobility wasn't good enough. Not trying to get in the middle of an uncoming Itachi vs Nagato debate, but even Kabuto complained about Nagato's lack of mobility and we never saw him making any kind of impressive movement.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 28, 2014)

Nagato
Itachi/Obito(MS)

Orochimaru/Kisame/Deidara
Sasori/Kakuzu

Konan
Zetsu/Hidan


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 28, 2014)

Jagger said:


> To confirm anything, Nagato's mobility wasn't good enough. Not trying to get in the middle of an uncoming Itachi vs Nagato debate, but even Kabuto complained about Nagato's lack of mobility and we never saw him making any kind of impressive movement.


Other than outright blitzing Bee after launching him with a Shinra Tensei?


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

Vice said:


> Sure he did. Once all six targeted Jiraiya, he was fodderized pretty quickly.



*One-armed Jiraiya who ended up losing Sage Mode...

And he was able to fight with Pain for a while off-panel and succeeded in disabling one of them.



> And Naruto was forced into using his six-tailed form against Deva Path alone.



He wasn't forced; Pain killed Hinata and Naruto completely lost himself.



> Pain would win.



That would depend on the circumstances.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> *One-armed Jiraiya who ended up losing Sage Mode...



Okay? Pain caused all that. Are you really detracting from the strength of Pain *because of* the damage he caused?



> And he was able to fight with Pain for a while off-panel and succeeded in disabling one of them.



Well, there's six of them. And boss summons. 



> He wasn't forced; Pain killed Hinata and Naruto completely lost himself.



And why did all this happen? Because Deva had Naruto pinned down and defeated?



> That would depend on the circumstances.



Yeah, if Kishi's boner was writing a fanfic version of this fight throwing out all logic and common sense.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Other than outright blitzing Bee after launching him with a Shinra Tensei?



Yet he couldn't dodge that Totsuka. 



Vice said:


> I'm not required to because he can't.



He can and did.



> He could either use Shinra Tensei, like he did, or simply absorb it like Madara did.



Nagato wasn't able to Shinra Tensei until Kabuto took over and Madara never absorbed the Totsuka (also, absorption wasn't an option on Kabuto's list when Nagato actually got stabbed with it).



> Nagato was also incapable of attacking Itachi based on edo programming.



Kabuto-controlled Nagato didn't have that problem.



> Taking the brunt of 100% of Nagato's attention assisted Itachi.



That was Kabuto being careless, not Naruto or B doing anything useful.



> Helping to destroy Chibaku Tensei assisted Itachi.



Chibaku Tensei was never a threat to Itachi, since he was an Edo Tensei.

Also, Nagato used that Jutsu when Itachi had his chakra hands full with his useless teammates after saving them. Plus Itachi had no intel on it. Go figure.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 28, 2014)

Vice said:


> Okay? Pain caused all that. Are you really detracting from the strength of Pain *because of* the damage he caused?



Of course not, but the fact remains that Jiraiya could still put up a fight even after being grievously injured.



> Well, there's six of them. And boss summons.



Lol @ summons even being a threat to any competent Jonin.



> And why did all this happen? Because Deva had Naruto pinned down and defeated?



Itachi>Pain Arc Sage Naruto. 



> Yeah, if Kishi's boner was writing a fanfic version of this fight throwing out all logic and common sense.



So you admit it.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Nagato was stronger as an Edo Tensei, just like Itachi and everyone else.
> .


- Controlled by a man who wasn't familiar with all of his capabilities ✓
- Greatest attribute [Rinnegan] was hampered as an Edo-Tensei ✓
- Lacked one of his strongest Jutsu [Pain Rikudo] ✓



> He even absorbed Killer B's chakra and was restored to his "prime."


Some of B's chakra vs 7-Bijuu inside of GM 



> You may as well look at the whole picture instead of just a piece of it... Naruto and B only helped destroy Chibaku Tensei while it was Itachi who took care of Kabuto's incompetence and did the actual sealing


- Whole picture Itachi + B + Naruto defeated Nagato
- Just a piece of it, Itachi countering duel vision

Whose looking at piece of the picture, again?



> Furthermore, this all transpired in like one chapter, so Nagato got outclassed and stomped pretty badly.


Team Naruto used their strongest Jutsu to beat Nagato, logical conclusion, he wasn't stomped. 



> Having knowledge of what Itachi can do doesn't mean Nagato can read minds or anticipate his actions.


*How* is some one who has detailed knowledge of Itachi's capabilities going to be caught off guard*?*

If that was too subtle for you; I was asking Renzor a question, so he'd expand on his point.



> Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto...


Are you saying Genjutsu doesn't work on Tensei?



> And he still ended up losing, so Genjutsu wasn't even necessary.


I'm sure Itachi decided to use all of his higher end shit, when he could have defeated Nagato much easier with Genjutsu 



> Defeating Nagato with pure Genjutsu is a pretty big stretch, but using Genjutsu to get the upperhand against Nagato and exploit an opportunity to land a decisive hit is pretty reasonable.


Itachi defeating a character whose been portrayed as much stronger than him, in a fair battle, is unreasonable, period.



> What? Chibaku Tensei wouldn't have done anything to Itachi except trap him until the Jutsu ended or Kabuto ended Edo Tensei, with or without Susano'o; he was immortal, just like Nagato.


Itachi trapped and defenseless against Nagato. I'm sure you can figure it out from there.



> ...Really? I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Itachi has consistently had good performances where he was in control of the situation, even when he lost to Sasuke; Naruto simply outsmarted Pain at every turn and Kabuto was totally incompetent at controlling Edo Nagato


Nagato defeated Jiriaya, without too much difficulty. Nagato solo'd a hidden village and would have defeated Naruto, even despite Naruto's considerable help, had it not been for having a change of heart. Nagato weakened as an Edo defeated both B and Naruto easily.

Itachi's best portray is Orochimaru admitting his inferiority. If not that, than its Itachi stating he could force a draw with Jiraiya. However the Orochimaru statement is open to interpretation considering that Orochimaru lost his arms  to Shiki Fuujin prior to making the statement; and the Jiriaya statement is also open to interpretation of whether it includes Kisame and the fact that Itachi says he'd be *lucky* if it ended in a draw. In all other cases he had help or was up against characters that are completely irrelevant to a discussion centered around characters as powerful as Itachi or Nagato.

So really interpreting Itachi's portrayal in the best light he is stronger than Orochimaru and equal to Jiriaya. While interpreting Itachi's portrayal in the worst light he is only stronger than an armless Orochimaru and weaker than Jiraiya. That's the range for Itachi's portrayal [maybe a bit better an an Edo] and in no way does it even approach Nagato's.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> He can and did.*



You forgot about that asterisk concerning context there buddy. 

It was 3 vs. 1 with literally *everything* falling Itachi's way.



> Nagato wasn't able to Shinra Tensei until Kabuto took over and Madara never absorbed the Totsuka (also, absorption wasn't an option on Kabuto's list when Nagato actually got stabbed with it).



Cute. Except in a hypothetical match up here, all of Nagato's attention is on Itachi and there are no partners here to help him. There is no dust cloud or shitty puppeteering or any of the dominoes that had to fall Itachi's way to make the outcome possible there.



> Kabuto-controlled Nagato didn't have that problem.



Was Kabuto controlling Nagato when he got Amaterasu'd? 



> That was Kabuto being careless, not Naruto or B doing anything useful.



It was still useful for Itachi, yes? It still created an opening for Itachi, yes? He doesn't have these openings on his own, yes?



> Chibaku Tensei was never a threat to Itachi, since he was an Edo Tensei.



Irrelevant. We're talking about Itachi on his own being incapable of stopping it either way.



> Also, Nagato used that Jutsu when Itachi had his chakra hands full with his useless teammates after saving them. Plus Itachi had no intel on it. Go figure.



Yes, Naruto and Bee got beaten over the head with the stupidity stick so that Itachi could mary sue his way through the chapter.

Itachi's on his own here.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 28, 2014)

Itachi was portrayed a ways superior to Orochimaru. 

In their final encounter Kishi wrote that Itachi's Susanoo defeated him with "a flick of it's wrist" 1 . This maybe worth considering in terms of how the two were meant to be portrayed.


----------



## Vice (Mar 28, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Of course not, but the fact remains that Jiraiya could still put up a fight even after being grievously injured.



Kay. But he got beaten, right? Which means he's still weaker than the sum of Pain's parts, right?

Itachi "putting up a fight" against Pain doesn't mean he's as strong or stronger than him.



> Lol @ summons even being a threat to any competent Jonin.



14 vs. 1 is terrible odds for anyone. Especially for one with shitty stamina and whose strongest techniques literally kill him.



> Itachi>Pain Arc Sage Naruto.



And Pain > Itachi.



> So you admit it.



Wouldn't be the first time Kishi granted ridiculous asspulls to his favorite little mary sue.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Itachi was portrayed a ways superior to Orochimaru.
> 
> In their final encounter Kishi wrote that Itachi's Susanoo defeated him with "a flick of it's wrist" 1 . This maybe worth considering in terms of how the two were meant to be portrayed.


Kishimoto doesn't write the sidetext


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 28, 2014)

I still believe the side text is representative of manga and what the author wants people to read. I don't believe they put stuff in the side text the author would disagree with.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 28, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I still believe the side text is representative of manga and what the author wants people to read. I don't believe they put stuff in the side text the author would disagree with.


I'm guessing that you don't usually read the side-text or put much thought into it. Because the Side-Text is horribly inaccurate and I seriously doubt Kishimoto even reads it, let alone approves of it [there is a reason why the side-text is completely omitted in the volume releases]. I mean did you know that according to the side-text Minato is the strongest in the Naruto-world, than another side-text calls Karin the strongest in the Naruto-world. The side-text is full of bullshit exaggerations. This is not to mention things like the side-text flat out lying, like saying Obito is going to go after Naruto, and than next chapter Kabuto does. Or it saying Naruto stumbled on Itachi by coincidence, even though Itachi clearly is revealed to have tracked Naruto down to put Koto-Crow inside of him, later in the manga. 

And you know what the real kicker is, if we go by the side-text we can end this Itachi/Nagato shit right now, because the side text outright states Nagato is stronger than Itachi by calling him the strongest in Akatsuki:
1


----------



## Lawrence777 (Mar 28, 2014)

Nagato is stronger than Itachi.
I'm referring to how Itachi was portrayed with regard to Orochimaru.

I've never not read the side text as I go about reading the manga. I just read everything. In addition, many parts of the manga hold exaggerations including the side text. Exaggerations aren't exclusive to the sidetext so there isn't much point in bringing that up. I don't see a reason to just summarily ignore text in the reading material that's been put there to be read.


----------



## Reznor (Mar 28, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how it throws things off. Nagato was weaker as an Edo; Itachi was stronger as an Edo. Even still Itachi needed help to prevail. The portrayal couldn't get any clearer.


 How was Nagato weaker? He fought KCM Naruto and absorbing Bee's power restored him.

Edo Tensei came with a tangible advantage and a vague nerf. 
Ameratsu could have killed Nagato early in the fight, after all.


> How is some one who has detailed knowledge of Itachi's capabilities going to be caught off guard?
> ...
> Nagato's displays have consistently been better than Itachi's. I mean  what display from Nagato is beneath a display of Itachi's?
> 
> ...


For one thing, it was a ranking, not an individual match up against each person above and below them.

Against a 3rd party I can imagine plently of opponents that could pull off a victory on Nagato that could not pull off a victory on Itachi. Some dust cloud isn't going to cost Itachi the fight. Itachi has a more consistent showing. I'm not saying "Itachi consistently performs better than Nagato" I'm saying that Itachi is an 8, and Nagato is a 7-10.

A "duel" scenario is not where they would always be put. We are basing our analysis off of situations that happened, not "fair fights". 
A fair fight would go to Nagato with some difficultly.
If Nagato catches Itachi off guard - for whatever reason - the fight would go about the same as a fair fight. It's hard to get Itachi at a disadvantage.  
If Itachi catches Nagato off guard, Itachi might win.
A more unpredictable situation where they both are caught off guard? I could see Itachi winning this as well.

Here's high-end vs low-end.
"Konan gave Obito a run for his money with Red Sea, but was fodderized by Jiraiya."
means
Konan (High End) = Red Sea
Konan (Low End) = Fodderized by Jiraiya



> Itachi went up against Nagato and Genjutsu was a non-factor, that combined with Kishi very clearly portraying Nagato as superior to Itachi, should tell us that Itachi isn't defeating Nagato with Genjutsu.


 I don't follow this.



> If Susano'o could protect Itachi from Nagato's Jutsu, he wouldn't have needed Killer B and Naruto's help to bust CT. Again that should tell us Nagato can handle Susano'o.


 If Nagato starts with this, it could be a victory. But, Nagato might not start with it and/or Itachi might Ameratsu him during this.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 28, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Other than outright blitzing Bee after launching him with a Shinra Tensei?


Nagato never blitzed Bee. 

Bee was thrown back by the impact of Nagato's sudden Shinra Tensei as we all saw it, he wasn't using his normal speed or anything, he was just being thrown around when Nagato appeared from behind (he most likely reached the place using the chamaleon), Bee used V2 and Nagato absorbed his chakra (he took the attack most likely due his Edo Tensei condition).

Even Nagato could appear behind BM Naruto if the latter were to be falling to the ground.

Also, didn't Naruto say that Madara couldn't use the fullest potential of his Rinnegan due his Edo Tensei state? I know it's just an assumption, but it is not to crazy to believe the same applied to Nagato. After all, we had no base to judge on about Nagato's abilities without the usage of corpses.


----------



## NarutoFan122134 (Mar 29, 2014)

Obito
Nagato/Itachi
Orochimaru/Sasori
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


----------



## Turrin (Mar 29, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Nagato is stronger than Itachi.
> I'm referring to how Itachi was portrayed with regard to Orochimaru.
> 
> I've never not read the side text as I go about reading the manga. I just read everything. In addition, many parts of the manga hold exaggerations including the side text. Exaggerations aren't exclusive to the sidetext so there isn't much point in bringing that up. I don't see a reason to just summarily ignore text in the reading material that's been put there to be read.



Many of the exaggerations in the manga are coming true, like 8th-Gate. With that aside the Side-text exaggerates to stupid extent; Karin the strongest lolz. And as I pointed out directly lies to readers. That combined with the fact that the author doesn't write them, is more than enough where side-text should be taken with a major grain of salt.



Reznor said:


> How was Nagato weaker? He fought KCM Naruto and absorbing Bee's power restored him.


- Controlled by a man who wasn't familiar with all of his capabilities ✓
- Greatest attribute [Rinnegan] was hampered as an Edo-Tensei ✓
- Lacked one of his strongest Jutsu [Pain Rikudo] ✓



> Edo Tensei came with a tangible advantage and a vague nerf.


The nerfs are case, by case basis. Sasori was extremely nerfed; Itachi was enhanced. Nagato is one Tensei that suffered a-lot of nerfs.



> Ameratsu could have killed Nagato early in the fight, after all.


He countered it with ST and only was caught of guard due to his ally randomly turning against him in the first place [Koto-Crow]; not a very applicable scenario.



> For one thing, it was a ranking, not an individual match up against each person above and below them.
> 
> Against a 3rd party I can imagine plently of opponents that could pull off a victory on Nagato that could not pull off a victory on Itachi


Name one character whose indicated to be >= Nagato, but inferior to Itachi.



> Some dust cloud isn't going to cost Itachi the fight. Itachi has a more consistent showing.


Itachi looses 10/10 times, worse than Nagato mind you, if he's up against Edo version of himself, Naruto, and B. I'm sorry, but there is no other way to say that.



> I'm not saying "Itachi consistently performs better than Nagato" I'm saying that Itachi is an 8, and Nagato is a 7-10.


I know what your saying, but I fail to see where Nagato has performed bellow Itachi's standards. Every single performance from him is well above Itachi's standards.



> A "duel" scenario is not where they would always be put. We are basing our analysis off of situations that happened, not "fair fights".
> A fair fight would go to Nagato with some difficultly.
> If Nagato catches Itachi off guard - for whatever reason - the fight would go about the same as a fair fight. It's hard to get Itachi at a disadvantage.
> If Itachi catches Nagato off guard, Itachi might win.
> A more unpredictable situation where they both are caught off guard? I could see Itachi winning this as well.


I'm sorry, but there is no random chance in the manga, it is designed by one person, Kishimoto. If he feels one character is stronger than another there isn't going to be random chance, he'll ether nerf the stronger character so the weaker one can win, or the stronger one will win.



> Here's high-end vs low-end.
> "Konan gave Obito a run for his money with Red Sea, but was fodderized by Jiraiya."
> means
> Konan (High End) = Red Sea
> Konan (Low End) = Fodderized by Jiraiya


Again I understand your method, but it doesn't translate well to this example as Itachi has no high end that is equivalent to Nagato's low end, from what i've seen in the manga. If there is an instance i'm forgetting where Nagato's demonstrates a low end within the range of Itachi's high end, please point it out to me.



> I don't follow this.


What don't you follow?



> If Nagato starts with this, it could be a victory. But, Nagato might not start with it and/or Itachi might Ameratsu him during this.


If Itachi could have Amaterasu'd him to stop CT he would have done so. 

I'm not saying Nagato is going to use CT from the jump, i'm saying it was clearly portrayed in the manga that Nagato could deal with Susano'o if it were to be pulled out.

Edit: Basically to trim the fat here so to speak and get to the point, you got to show an example from the manga defining Itachi's high end, than show an example from the manga defining Nagato's low end, and than demonstrate how in comparison Itachi's high end example >= Nagato's low end example. Otherwise I can't see where your coming from. The rest of this is ancillary crap, and really this is all that matters


----------



## Bonly (Mar 29, 2014)

If I was to include all Akatsuki members after Yahiko death:

Obito

Nagato

Itachi

Sasuke/Konan/Kisame/Zetsu/Orochi

Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu

Jugo/Suigetsu/Hidan

Karin


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Mar 29, 2014)

*If Shino was to include...*


Nagato~Kamen no Ninja


Itachi/sasori/Oro/sasuke


kisame-kakuzu-deidara-zetsu


Juugo\suigetsu\Hidan\Karin


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 29, 2014)

Vice said:


> Nagato couldn't walk, was being used like a puppet and was against three high tiers, one of which (Itachi) wasnt even a target.




Nagato could walk. He is also stronger than Pain. Naruto & B were non factors most of the time and Itachi not being a target is fanmade horse shit. 



> Please learn to read the manga properly thanks.


The irony.



Reznor said:


> Edo Itachi defeated Nagato.
> 
> That's why I said nagato high end > itachi > low end Nagato



Edo Itachi used a couple of shots of Amaterasu and brief Susano'o on Nagato. Nothing his living counterpart couldn't accomplish.


----------



## The End (Mar 29, 2014)

Hidan (cant die GG)

-massive gap-

Orochimaru (Snakes and he can touch his eyeball GG)
Nagato (no legs still solod Konoha)
Obito (half his body is made of tree goo)

-massive gap-

Kisame (Sharks)
Deidara (Clay and bombs are cool)
Sasori (Puppets are cool)
Kazuku (more than 1 heart)
Konan (flame resistant paper gg)

-Largest gap so far-

Zetsu (swims through rocks)

-Difference between start of series Konohamaru and prime 6 paths sage-

Itachi (solod by disease, see a doctor)


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> - Controlled by a man who wasn't familiar with all of his capabilities ✓


But was familiar with all the strong and relevant ones. So its irrelevant.



> - Greatest attribute [Rinnegan] was hampered as an Edo-Tensei ✓


In what way  ?



> - Lacked one of his strongest Jutsu [Pain Rikudo] ✓


Nagato is stronger than Pain Rikodou, stated by Naruto.



> Some of B's chakra vs 7-Bijuu inside of GM


7 Bijuu in GM are a part of Nagato's power now  ? 

In case you say yes, I'll say no. Those Bijuu were caught by the collaboration of all Akatsuki members over the years.




> - Whole picture Itachi + B + Naruto defeated Nagato
> - Just a piece of it, Itachi countering duel vision



More like Naruto & B only helped in destruction of Edo Tensei.

Whole Picture : Itachi OHKO'D Nagato & His  summons with Amaterasu, karatechopped him with Susano'o as he saved lives of B & Naruto, and right after CT was destroyed, he totsuka blitzed Nagato and sealed him.

Thats like 4 instances and in only 1 of them B & Naruto played a major role. 




> Whose looking at piece of the picture, again?


You.



> Team Naruto used their strongest Jutsu to beat Nagato, logical conclusion, he wasn't stomped.


It took 8 pages to dispatch him without any harm being done to Team Itachi. Conclusion : He was stomped badly.




> *How* is some one who has detailed knowledge of Itachi's capabilities going to be caught off guard*?*


Kabuto had detailed knowledge on Itachi's abilities, so did Nagato.



> Are you saying Genjutsu doesn't work on Tensei?


Logically. The only genjutsu we know which is powerful enough to override the control of ET is Koto Amatsukami.




> I'm sure Itachi decided to use all of his higher end shit, when he could have defeated Nagato much easier with Genjutsu


I love this argument. X didn't use Y that means Z is immune to Y.





> Itachi defeating a character whose been portrayed as much stronger than him, in a fair battle, is unreasonable, period.


Nagato & Itachi were portrayed on a similar level. 
Reaction of Zetsu to both of them losing a battle, their dialogues and respect to each other in the war arc cleary show they were in the same tier in terms of portrayal. 



> Nagato defeated Jiriaya, without too much difficulty. Nagato solo'd a hidden village and would have defeated Naruto, even despite Naruto's considerable help, had it not been for having a change of heart. Nagato weakened as an Edo defeated both B and Naruto easily.


Itachi defeated Orochimaru alot easier than Nagato defeated Jiraiya.

Nagato was stronger as an ET btw. Living Nagato was bound to a wheelchair.




> Itachi's best portray is Orochimaru admitting his inferiority. If not that, than its Itachi stating he could force a draw with Jiraiya. However the Orochimaru statement is open to interpretation considering that Orochimaru lost his arms  to Shiki Fuujin prior to making the statement; and the Jiriaya statement is also open to interpretation of whether it includes Kisame and the fact that Itachi says he'd be *lucky* if it ended in a draw. In all other cases he had help or was up against characters that are completely irrelevant to a discussion centered around characters as powerful as Itachi or Nagato.



Orochimaru's statement isn't open to interpretation. 
Orochimaru wasn't talking about "now" as in "this exact moment". Because Orochimaru went after Sasuke before he lost his arms. Getting Itachi was already a dream before Konoha invasion.




> So really interpreting Itachi's portrayal in the best light he is stronger than Orochimaru and equal to Jiriaya. While interpreting Itachi's portrayal in the worst light he is only stronger than an armless Orochimaru and weaker than Jiraiya. That's the range for Itachi's portrayal [maybe a bit better an an Edo] and in no way does it even approach Nagato's.



That'd be true if you look @ one instance. 
But when you look @ the entire manga, you'd see that Itachi keeps getting praise and hype.

On the other hand, Jiraiya has literally has no relevant hype. I remember Pain praising him after stomping him. And Tobi saying that Jiraiya lived up to his reputation for delaying pain.


Also Orochimaru by statements and hype >= Jiraiya

That makes Itachi > Jiraiya by default.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 29, 2014)

_Updated Supa Ultra Fxqwit List_:

*1.*Uchiha Obito [Juubi Jinchurikee]
*2.*Uchiha Obito [Rin + Sharingan] = Uchiha Itachi [Edo / Zero Restrictions]
*3.*Uzumaki Nagato [Edo + Bloodlust + No Kabuto Control + No Rinne Debuffs]
*4.*Uchiha Sasuke[Current]  = Uchiha Itachi [Healthy]
*5.*Uzumaki Nagato
*6.*Orochimaru [Revived] = Sprial Zetsu [Yamato Vessel]
*7.*Uchiha Obito [Pre-Rinnegan]
*8.*Hoshigaki Kisame
*9.*Sasori [Bloodlust] = Orochimaru [Part 2 Healthy]
*10.*Deidera 
*11.*Uchiha Sasuke [Hebi]
*12.*Uchiha Itachi [Sick]
*13.*Orochimaru [Akatsuki] = Konan [Potential]
*14.*Kakazu [Strictly 1on1]
*15.*Karin [Konoha / Broken Uzumaki Chains]
*16.*Jugo [Bloodlust]
*17.*Hiden
*18.*Konan
*19.*Suigetsu
*20.*Deidera [Edo]
*21.*Kakazu [Edo]
*22.*Yahiko
*23*.Zetsu
*24.*Karin = Akatsuki Fodder [Hanzo Battle]
*25.*Sasori [Kishimoto's AFK / Nerfed Edo]


----------



## Dominus (Mar 29, 2014)

Weapon said:


> _Updated Supa Ultra Fxqwit List_:
> 
> *1.*Uchiha Obito [Juubi Jinchurikee]
> *2.*Uchiha Obito [Rin + Sharingan] = Uchiha Itachi [Edo / Zero Restrictions]
> ...



Sasuke and Nagato are stronger than Itachi, especially the alive version of Itachi.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 29, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Sasuke and Nagato are stronger than Itachi, especially the alive version of Itachi.



Edo Itachi with no restrictions, definitely not. I don't see in a logically played out fight how Non Mobile Nagato even w/ Six Paths can be beaten by listed *4*.

Edo Nagato with listed specs does stomp. 

Sasuke hasn't surpassed Itachi [Healthy + My Feat Stipulations] in my honest opinion and is still equal to him, but he obviously will soon.


----------



## Vice (Mar 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato could walk.



No he couldn't, at the very least it was limited. Kabuto specifically refered to this as to why Nagato was defeated.



> He is also stronger than Pain.



And Pain is stronger than itachi too.



> Naruto & B were non factors most of the time



They were factors enough to have all of nagato's attention so that itachi could sit back and do his thing. They were also instrumental in stopping CT despite the best efforts of you fanboys in twisting it in whatever way fits your fanboy agenda.



> and Itachi not being a target is fanmade horse shit.



Or manga canon. Fanmade horse shit would be about 95% of what comes out of an itachi stan's mouth. 



> The irony.



I'll continue to encourage you to reread the manga without your fanboy glasses on and understand that context exists and isn't just reserved for itachi to explain away his poor showings.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 29, 2014)

Weapon said:


> _Updated Supa Ultra Fxqwit List_:
> 
> *1.*Uchiha Obito [Juubi Jinchurikee]
> *2.*Uchiha Obito [Rin + Sharingan] = Uchiha Itachi [Edo / Zero Restrictions]
> ...


Couple of issue I have with this weapon.

- Kakuzu and Deidara weren't weaker as Edos, they were stronger. If you think their performance was lacking as Edos you should probably lower their position in general.

- Sick Itachi was stronger than Hebi Sasuke, he defeated him and than defeated armless Orochimaru, afterwards

- Edo Nagato is weaker than living Nagato. No way does B's chakra make up for losing GM & Pain Rikudo; on top of however else Fake-Rinnegan held Nagato back.


----------



## Dominus (Mar 29, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Edo Itachi with no restrictions, definitely not. I don't see in a logically played out fight how Non Mobile Nagato even w/ Six Paths can be beaten by listed *4*.
> 
> Edo Nagato with listed specs does stomp.



Itachi is only superior when it comes to intelligence and genjutsu, that certainly won't be enough to defeat Nagato especially if he has his Six Paths of Pain with him.



> Sasuke hasn't surpassed Itachi [Healthy + My Feat Stipulations] in my honest opinion and is still equal to him, but he obviously will soon.



He was already ahead of Itachi when    and now he's even .


----------



## Weapon (Mar 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Couple of issue I have with this weapon.
> 
> - Kakuzu and Deidara weren't weaker as Edos, they were stronger. If you think their performance was lacking as Edos you should probably lower their position in general.
> 
> ...





- I think their Edo performances were lack luster[Especially Kakazu] on the actual battlefield, only positive was Deidera's ability to spam more but we didn't see him do what he was when alive. In general I don't like rating Edo's high because of the body restrictions[Stated by Madara, which made me think lower of Edo's] outside of Chakra / Regen.

- I was actually going to make them the same to be honest, but I just left it like that I don't really think the difference was that big a deal. 

- I was literally going to put like four different Nagato's on my list, but the Edo Spec one I honestly see beating the living Nagato I placed because of Minor Regen [Since Chakra isn't an issue for living really] + Mobility + Almost same features.


----------



## Vice (Mar 29, 2014)

Sasuke has perfect susanoo. He far outclassed itachi a long time ago.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 29, 2014)

Weapon said:


> - I think their Edo performances were lack luster[Especially Kakazu] on the actual battlefield, only positive was Deidera's ability to spam more but we didn't see him do what he was when alive. In general I don't like rating Edo's high because of the body restrictions[Stated by Madara, which made me think lower of Edo's] outside of Chakra / Regen.
> 
> - I was actually going to make them the same to be honest, but I just left it like that I don't really think the difference was that big a deal.
> 
> - I was literally going to put like four different Nagato's on my list, but the Edo Spec one I honestly see beating the living Nagato I placed because of Minor Regen [Since Chakra isn't an issue for living really] + Mobility + Almost same features.


Whether there performance was lack luster or not doesn't mean they were weaker. They both had the same strength as Edo is as when they were alive, but than had Edo perks . Madara is a special case, he was weakened due to Edo Tensei not playing nice with Rinnegan and him liking to feel the battle.

But Sick Itachi defeated him and than another shinobi

But he lacked major things GM/Pain Rikudo


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 29, 2014)

It's for reasons like this why Itachi is overrated and Nagato is underrated. Kishi consciously put Edo Itachi, Naruto, and Bee against a mind-controlled Nagato. Kabuto being familiar with the Rinnegan's abilities--even the best ones--does not mean he knows the best way to utilize them. Someone should make a thread with Itachi versus Nagato where Itachi is mind-controlled by Kabuto and I'm almost certain it would be completely disregarded because of the stipulation and, reasonably so, laughed at as far as having any real bearing on a fair outcome.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 29, 2014)

Vice said:


> No he couldn't, at the very least it was limited. Kabuto specifically refered to this as to why Nagato was defeated.



Kabuto didn't say anything of that nature. Kabuto only said that the set up he had with the extra pair of eyes to compansate Nagato's lack of mobility didn't work because of Itachi's kunai skills.
That was a compliment for Itachi more than anything else.



> And Pain is stronger than itachi too.


Could be. But Itachi took down the stronger version of Pain, so I rightfully question your statement of Pain* easily *mopping the floor with Itachi.



> They were factors enough to have all of nagato's attention so that itachi could sit back and do his thing. They were also instrumental in stopping CT despite the best efforts of you fanboys in twisting it in whatever way fits your fanboy agenda.


Thats cute but it doesn't change the fact that Itachi doing most of the work. And its not like Nagato was able to put up a fight. He used his strongest moves and still got stomped in a couple of pages.



> Or manga canon. Fanmade horse shit would be about 95% of what comes out of an itachi stan's mouth.


Please, show me where in the manga it is stated or shown that Itachi wasn't a target.




> I'll continue to encourage you to reread the manga without your fanboy glasses on and understand that context exists and isn't just reserved for itachi to explain away his poor showings.



And I'll just sit here in silence and enjoy the irony, like I am doing right now.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 29, 2014)

Grimmjow, it would have been impossible for Itachi to defeat Chibaku Tensei alone. Magatama was not enough. Nagato would defeat Naruto, B, and Itachi individually. You need to make sure you understand the concept of a team effort. 

Goku couldn't beat Buu without Hercule. No matter how you think the workload was divided, it still stands true that it took a team to actually _stop_ Nagato.


----------



## Vice (Mar 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto didn't say anything of that nature. Kabuto only said that the set up he had with the extra pair of eyes to compansate Nagato's lack of mobility didn't work because of Itachi's kunai skills.



Seriously? He didn't blame anything on Nagato's lack of mobility he just explicitly blamed his lack of mobility? That's pretty much the gist of this sentence.



> That was a compliment for Itachi more than anything else.



I'm not at all surprised that you believe this.



> Could be. But Itachi took down the stronger version of Pain



See, there you go again. Itachi, Naruto and Bee took down the stronger version of Pain. It was a team effort, it was the whole point of his stupid little speech about carrying burdens on your own.



> so I rightfully question your statement of Pain* easily *mopping the floor with Itachi.



Because Itachi's not going to have two other high tiers next to him completely diverting his attention away from him.

I rightfully question how you believe a guy with shitty stamina and techniques that literally kill him can come out of a 14 on 1 match with a victory.



> Thats cute but it doesn't change the fact that Itachi doing most of the work.



And? He had quite the opening to do all this work thanks to Naruto and Bee diverting ALL of Nagato's attention away.



> And its not like Nagato was able to put up a fight. He used his strongest moves and still got stomped in a couple of pages.



Nagato who was being controlled like a puppet and lacked mobility. There goes more of that context shit that you ignore.



> Please, show me where in the manga it is stated or shown that Itachi wasn't a target.



Not a single panel exists where Itachi was individually targeted before Kabuto took control or after. Not a one.



> And I'll just sit here in silence and enjoy the irony, like I am doing right now.



Good for you. Your fanwank still isn't canon, by the way.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2014)

Kabuto explicitly said he forgot Itachi was even there, having his attention solely on Naruto and Bee.


----------



## Kai (Mar 29, 2014)

I will always defend this point regarding MS Obito - that, as a teenager, he was in possession of the Kyuubi for one instance, just like Madara was. Therefore, Kurama is a part of Obito's "MS" power unless removed from discussion by OP. Therefore, Obito's firepower is indeed the greatest in Akatsuki.

However, I'd put Nagato (Prime) above MS Obito. Obito is above Nagato (crippled) and Pain imo.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2014)

Kai said:


> I will always defend this point regarding MS Obito - that, as a teenager, he was in possession of the Kyuubi for one instance, just like Madara was. Therefore, Kurama is a part of Obito's "MS" power unless removed from discussion by OP. Therefore, Obito's firepower is indeed the greatest in Akatsuki.
> 
> However, I'd put Nagato (Prime) above MS Obito. Obito is above Nagato (crippled) and Pain imo.


I wouldn't put Kurama in MS Obito's arsenal. That power was _explicitly_ taken away from him by Minato's Contract Seal. Not only that, Obito himself said Nagato (crippled) was invincible and was the strongest member of Akatsuki.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 29, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Grimmjow, it would have been impossible for Itachi to defeat Chibaku Tensei alone.


Speculation.



> Magatama was not enough


.
At that stage I agree.



> Nagato would defeat Naruto, B, and Itachi individually.


Speculative. You are probably right about B & Naruto though.



> You need to make sure you understand the concept of a team effort.



I do.
But you have to understand that Sasuke didn't defeat Zabuza, Kakashi did.




> Goku couldn't beat Buu without Hercule. No matter how you think the workload was divided, it still stands true that it took a team to actually _stop_ Nagato.



I have 0 knowledge on dragon ball.


----------



## Vice (Mar 29, 2014)

You need to look up what speculation means and realize what a giant hypocrite you're being here.


----------



## Kai (Mar 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I wouldn't put Kurama in MS Obito's arsenal. That power was _explicitly_ taken away from him by Minato's Contract Seal. Not only that, Obito himself said Nagato (crippled) was invincible and was the strongest member of Akatsuki.


Kurama as a power was taken away from Madara by Mito's Uzumaki Fuuinjutsu, and was never to be seen or used again by him for over 80 years.

Madara and Obito both used Kyuubi for destruction _one time._

It's just as much as part of "MS" Obito's arsenal that should be manually restricted.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 29, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Speculation.




It isn't. It took Bijudama, Rasenshuriken, and Magatama to destroy the core. That's what was shown. 




> Speculative. You are probably right about B & Naruto though.




^



> But you have to understand that Sasuke didn't defeat Zabuza, Kakashi did.




The first time, Kakashi lost. He was trapped in water prison, which at least looked to be "gg bro." 

The second time, he did win, but Sasuke didn't help Kakashi overcome a technique he couldn't beat by himself. 



> I have 0 knowledge on dragon ball.




Wtf


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 29, 2014)

1. Nagato
2. Tobi
3. Sasori
4. Deidara
5. Konan
6. Kisame
7. Kakazu
8. Itachi
9. Hidan
10. Zetsu



Grimjow- You say speculation, but what he is saying is actually outcomes and your speculating that something will occur at the right time the right way and the mechanics will work a certain way at that time. You are speculating, he is logically determining an outcome that makes sense.

How can Itachi defeat Nagato? You "think" that because its labelled a spiritual weapon(chakra is spiritual) that preta wouldn't be able to absorb it, when in all reality if Nagato has preta active he can absorb any type of chakra, even chakra that is meant to sabotage his chakra network a.k.a. genjutsu which also includes Tsukuyomi. Then you must factor in that Nagato's power mainly came from his puppets a.k.a. the Six Paths of Pain. Then his ST dispels everything, unless its forced through Itachi isn't physically strong enough, nor is his Susanoo. Asura makes his body mechanical and very versatile, then add in Summons(Konan is included, she is his summon and has been summoned by him in the manga). And if he makes any physical contact he is sealing you. Nagato easily takes the top spot.

Tobi can give Nagato a good run for his money any day, but it requires him playing it just right and Nagato making mistakes which are rare.

Sasori and Diedara are vastly under rated- Sasori is a powerhouse and Deidara is a wildcard that likes to blow shit up.

Konan- very powerful in her own right, Kisame fused with Samehada could beat her, but I don't see him taking her that serious to begin with.

Kakuzu- EXTREMELY VERSATILE AND POWERFUL. Vastly under rated. Every fight with him is going to be long and drawn out, his combos are good.

Itachi- Good for certain situations and against alot of Shinobi but akatsuki members are all high tier and experienced. Also not sure how his Totsuka's mechanics will work against Konan and Kakuzu.

Hidan- Extremely durable, great support.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 29, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> 1. Nagato
> 2. Tobi
> 3. Sasori
> 4. Deidara
> ...



So accurate that it brings tears to my eyes  

One thing I don't get, how the fuck did Itachi make it above Zetsu and Hidan


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2014)

Kai said:


> Kurama as a power was taken away from Madara by Mito's Uzumaki Fuuinjutsu, and was never to be seen or used again by him for over 80 years.
> 
> Madara and Obito both used Kyuubi for destruction _one time._
> 
> It's just as much as part of "MS" Obito's arsenal that should be manually restricted.


Wrong. Minato explicitly took Obito's control over Kurama away using Contract Seal. We even see the Sharingan disappear from Kurama's eyes. Kurama is no longer in Obito's arsenal.


----------



## Reznor (Mar 29, 2014)

Who cares if it "counts" or not?...

Just say who Obito can beat with the Kyuubi and who he can beat without the Kyuubi.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 29, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Who cares if it "counts" or not?...
> 
> Just say who Obito can beat with the Kyuubi and who he can beat without the Kyuubi.


Since its clearly not in Obito's arsenal at all. He used it _one time_ and permanently _lost it._ Madara has Kurama in his arsenal since he used him for years and was one of his signature abilities.


----------



## Jagger (Mar 29, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since its clearly not in Obito's arsenal at all. He used it _one time_ and permanently _lost it._ Madara has Kurama in his arsenal since he used him for years and was one of his signature abilities.


Wait, what? It seems you've been assuming some kind of things there.

First, where has been shown or stated that Madara constantly used Kurama in his fights? A statement from someone or Madara himself? Or are you coming with that conclusion given the fact Madara armored Kurama with his Susano'O, because that's rather talent than anything else, just like we saw Sasuke using Juugo's Cursed Seal to completely cover his Susano'O.

And one of his signature abilities?


----------



## Weapon (Mar 29, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Madara is a special case, he was weakened due to Edo Tensei not playing nice with Rinnegan and him liking to feel the battle.



Yeah you see the thing with Madara is, he still had a strong arsenal outside of the Rinnegan and was still huge. Yet, Kabuto only made the modifications / "power ups" to his body as opposed to the others which makes me hate Edo __ in general. Even though it was stated not good, he still made Madara feel more accustomed to his vessel in comparison to the others I'm sure. 

But I'll take that. I accept and agree with the rest of what you said namely Nagato's changed features.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 30, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Yeah you see the thing with Madara is, he still had a strong arsenal outside of the Rinnegan and was still huge. Yet, Kabuto only made the modifications / "power ups" to his body as opposed to the others which makes me hate Edo __ in general. Even though it was stated not good, he still made Madara feel more accustomed to his vessel in comparison to the others I'm sure.
> 
> But I'll take that. I accept and agree with the rest of what you said namely Nagato's changed features.


Yeah it doesn't make much sense that Kabuto didn't upgrade all the Tensei with Hashi DNA. Only explanations I can think off, is that he was afraid he wouldn't be able to control as many Tensei that way or he didn't have enough time to do so before the war.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah it doesn't make much sense that Kabuto didn't upgrade all the Tensei with Hashi DNA. Only explanations I can think off, is that he was afraid he wouldn't be able to control as many Tensei that way or he didn't have enough time to do so before the war.



I'm curious as to how the actual control method comes into play in regards to Chakra / The Jutsu with ET with the whole board and everything, did Kabuto create this himself?


That could be the case, I mean it could come down to two things:

- Body Modifications took a long time to do prior to their summon, which made him short on time or else he obviously would of done it to logically have sweeped the war.
- Like you said, he might not be able to control them all at once and since they're stronger and if they have the knowledge they could break the control and become enemies


----------



## Reznor (Mar 30, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since its clearly not in Obito's arsenal at all. He used it _one time_ and permanently _lost it._ Madara has Kurama in his arsenal since he used him for years and was one of his signature abilities.


I don't care to define his arsenal so specifically.

Obito w/ Kyuubi > ? > Obito w/out Kyubbi

Who falls in the camp that MS Obito can beat, but only with the Kyuubi?


----------



## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Turrin get back here, let's discuss the fundamentals and control design behind Edo Tensei.
Specifically Kabuto's methods and whether they were invented by him or not.


----------



## Rain (Mar 30, 2014)

1. Uchiha Itachi (alive, perfect health+eyesight, Kotoamatsukami)/ Obito Uchiha (Juubi Jinchuriki/No Kamui)
2. Nagato Uzumaki (healthy + Six paths)/ Obito Uchiha (6 paths + Rinnegan)/ Uchiha Itachi (Edo)
3. Six Paths of Pain/Uchiha Itachi (sick, bad eyesight)

3. Orochimaru (Yamato No Jutsu + ET + hype)

4. Obito Uchiha (Kamui)
5. Kisame Hoshigaki

6. Sasori (hype)
7. Deidara

8. Kakuzu
9. Konan (without paper ocean)
10. Hidan


11. Zetsu (single)


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 30, 2014)

Obito Uchiha
Nagato (Pein)
Itachi Uchiha
Deidara
Kisame Hoshigake
Orochimaru (sans ET)
Konan
Kakuzu
Sasori
Hidan
Zetsu​​


----------



## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Obito Uchiha
> Nagato (Pein)
> Itachi Uchiha
> Deidara
> ...




Hoshigaki* 

OT: Here, Turrin turrin turrin turrin turrin.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 30, 2014)

@Weapon

I'm really not sure, hence no response lol


----------



## Weapon (Mar 30, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Weapon
> 
> I'm really not sure, hence no response lol



Yeah, it's a bit of a thinker isn't it. I actually don't know where to start on such a open / un-clarified topic.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Yeah, it's a bit of a thinker isn't it. I actually don't know where to start on such a open / un-clarified topic.



The only thing I can think of is that it works like Genjutsu, where the Edo-Tensei users takes control over the person's cranial nerve with their chakra and controls them. Also if we theorize that Genjutsu and Edo Tensei the casters chakra has to be more potent than the person's they are controlling otherwise the person can break free. Than perhaps it makes sense. Giving all the Tensei Hashi DNA would make their chakra more potent and thus more difficult to control on such a large scale


----------



## Tarot (Mar 31, 2014)

Rain said:


> 1. *Uchiha Itachi (alive, perfect health+eyesight, Kotoamatsukami*)/ Obito Uchiha (Juubi Jinchuriki/No Kamui)
> 2. Nagato Uzumaki (healthy + Six paths)/ Obito Uchiha (6 paths + Rinnegan)/ Uchiha Itachi (Edo)
> 3. Six Paths of Pain/*Uchiha Itachi (sick, bad eyesight)*
> 
> ...


You can't be serious 
Itachi never had access to Koto, neither alive nor an Edo, so that's purely a fanfic character.
War arc Obito>>>Edo Itachi. He's gonna get completely stomped fighting that many V2 jinchuriki. Nagato>Edo Itachi already needed Naruto and Bee to beat Nagato to beat him.
Pain>>Itachi I have no idea why you even consider these in the same league. He's not gonna stand a chance in hell against a guy who could solo an entire village with his low stamina.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 31, 2014)

Death Arcana said:


> You can't be serious
> Itachi never had access to Koto, neither alive nor an Edo, so that's purely a fanfic character.
> War arc Obito>>>Edo Itachi. He's gonna get completely stomped fighting that many V2 jinchuriki. Nagato>Edo Itachi already needed Naruto and Bee to beat Nagato to beat him.
> Pain>>Itachi I have no idea why you even consider these in the same league. He's not gonna stand a chance in hell against a guy who could solo an entire village with his low stamina.


Rain is one of Itachi's biggest fans. You'll be hard pressed to convince him that he isn't the strongest.


----------



## Rain (Mar 31, 2014)

Death Arcana said:


> You can't be serious



Who are you to tell me?



> Itachi never had access to Koto, neither alive nor an Edo, so that's purely a fanfic character.



What you are saying is fanfiction. Shisui gave Itachi the eye and told him to protect the village with it. Itachi also programmed it.



> War arc Obito>>>Edo Itachi. He's gonna get completely stomped fighting that many V2 jinchuriki.



Susano'o/Yata Mirror tanks everything including Bijuudama and seals them all with Totsuka. Madara's Susano'o without Yata Mirror >>>> Kurama's 100% Bijuudama >>> 50% Kurama Bijuudama > 5 Bijuu Bijuudama 
Yata Mirror >>>>> Ordinary Susano'o  which brings as to the conclusion that Yata Mirror >>>>>>>>>> 5 BIjuu Bijuudama



> Nagato>Edo Itachi already needed Naruto and Bee to beat Nagato to beat him.




Fanfiction again. Itachi didn't need Naruto and Bee. He could've destroyed the black orb immediately if he didn't take time explaining it to Naruto and Bee giving it time to pull a lot of rocks. He also technicaly killed Nagato twice before CT.



> Pain>>Itachi I have no idea why you even consider these in the same league. He's not gonna stand a chance in hell against a guy who could solo an entire village with his low stamina.



Totsuka/Amaterasu seals/kills all paths, kunai/crows deal with the summons. Tsukuyomi might work as well since Nagato's optic nerves are still linked to the paths. Nagato on the other hand can't get through Susano'o. CST gets deflected, CT gets destroyed as soon as Deva launches 
the black orb or Deva never gets the chance to use it.


Please don't bother responding if you are going to use fanmade "facts".



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Rain is one of Itachi's biggest fans. You'll be hard pressed to convince him that he isn't the strongest.



That has nothing to do with my posts which are backed up by manga/databook facts.

It just speaks of my superior taste.


----------



## RedChidori (Mar 31, 2014)

1.Obito
2.Nagato/Pein
3.Itachi
4.Kisame
5.Deidara
6.Sasori
7.Konan
8.Kakuzu
9.Hidan
10.Zetsu


----------



## Edo Madara (Mar 31, 2014)

Kai said:


> I will always defend this point regarding MS Obito - that, as a teenager, he was in possession of the Kyuubi for one instance, just like Madara was. Therefore, Kurama is a part of Obito's "MS" power unless removed from discussion by OP. Therefore, Obito's firepower is indeed the greatest in Akatsuki.



This is fanboy mentality, they will always tried to put their characters at the top despite the conditions.

Kyuubi and ET will always be external powers for characters who used them, with Jinchuriki being exception. You can put ems Madara and ms Obito without involving Kyuubi but some fanboys are obviously ignorant.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

So apparently DB Stat-Totals do constitute as Rankings:


Weapon "True / Overall ability: (As it relates to the 8 points being scored) The Shinobi's ability according to 8 factors. Each evaluated separately and then summed up through combining the evaluations of each into one overall score."

Gottheim, "Total Ability: An average notation. Take all 8 of the parameter scores (Nin; Tai; Gen...), make a total and divide to obtain a notation out of 5."

That means we can easily tell some of the rankings of Akatsuki members:


- Itachi - 35.5
- Orochimaru - 35
- Sasori - 34.5
- Kisame - 32.5*
- Kakuzu - 32.5
- Deidara - 32
- Hidan - 31.5*

*Kisame may have increased in skill since DBIII; also DB wouldn't count Samehada/Kisamehada. So he might now be closer to Sasori than Kakuzu.
*DB probably doesn't count Hidan's magic scythe ether, so he might be a bit better, I.E. a bit closer to Deidara.

That should stabilize some of the rankings.


----------



## Vice (Mar 31, 2014)

Rain telling someone not to use "fanmade facts" when his entire argument consists of exactly that is hilarious.


----------



## Reznor (Mar 31, 2014)

> So apparently DB Stat-Totals do constitute as Rankings:
> 
> 
> Weapon "True / Overall ability: (As it relates to the 8 points being scored) The Shinobi's ability according to 8 factors. Each evaluated separately and then summed up through combining the evaluations of each into one overall score."
> ...


 Not everything about a ninja is represented by one of the 8 stats.
Also a "5" in a stat can mean alot of different things.

Two ninja with otherwise the same stats except Str: 3 Nin: 3 and Str:1 Nin:5, where the latter has a 5 ninjutsu because of some world altering ninjutsu we would not consider even.


----------



## Kai (Mar 31, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since its clearly not in Obito's arsenal at all. He used it _one time_ and permanently _lost it._ Madara has Kurama in his arsenal since he used him for years and was one of his signature abilities.


Madara using Kurama for years is an outright falsehood. Kurama was Madara's golden opportunity in hopes of finally exceeding Hashirama in their fight at VOTE.

A signature ability is precisely what it's not, and Madara no less lost the 9 tails out to fuuinjutsu. 

However, if we are discussing "EMS" Madara and "MS" Obito, who both used Kurama once in the manga, it's only appropriate to automatically include or manually remove him from their repertoire in threads.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 31, 2014)

Kai said:


> However, if we are discussing "EMS" Madara and "MS" Obito, who both used Kurama once in the manga, it is only appropriate to automatically include or manually remove him from their repertoire.




"MS Obito" usually refers to Akatsuki-cloak Tobi, who cannot actually summon Kurama anymore. EMS Madara typically means Madara back at the VotE, who could summon it..

If it was the Masked Man from the Kyubi Attack flashback, he would have the Kyubi just like EMS Madara (at least he should).


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Reznor said:


> Not everything about a ninja is represented by one of the 8 stats.
> Also a "5" in a stat can mean alot of different things.
> 
> Two ninja with otherwise the same stats except Str: 3 Nin: 3 and Str:1 Nin:5, where the latter has a 5 ninjutsu because of some world altering ninjutsu we would not consider even.


Considering that Kishimoto wants readers to consider Stat-Totals as representative of a certain characters Overall or Total ability, he very clearly is designing the stats so the totals reflect who Kishi considers the better shinobi. 

Some things are not accounted for in the stats like higher-forms [CS, Sennin Modo, etc...] achieved through Ninjutsu or external power sources like summons/Biju/magic-weapons. But this still gives us sense of how Kishi ranks their "base-forms". 

In the case of Akatsuki, luckily for us their "base-forms" are all that really matters in most cases.

Hidan's Magic-Scythe might raise him up a bit, but it's not raising him up beyond Deidara-level
Deidara has no ascended mode
Kakuzu's Jingo Mode might raise him up a bit, but it's not going to raise him beyond what Samehada, Kisamehada, and 3-Arcs more time to gain strength would raise Kisame. It's also probably not raising him up to Sasori's "level" considering the gap between them and the fact that Jingo mode was never portrayed as such a large increase in Kakuzu's overall ability; this is assuming of course Jingo Mode doesn't just count towards his Ninjutsu-Stat.
Orochimaru's Yamata no Orochi Mode isn't pushing him above Itachi, as we directly saw Itachi put down that mode with his own higher-form Susano'o. Whether Orochimaru's summons, namely the Edos, put him above Itachi, is an on going discussion and debatable, but I think we might as well just leave off Edo-Tensei.

So thee only DB-Ranking I find debatable is Kisame's, but that is simply because Kisame was still around gaining power/exp after DBIII was released.

Edit: The only way the others might raise up a bit is via exp/knowledge gained in the war, if we count their post-mortem shit, but even than thee only one who might raise up even a half tier in [intelligence] from that is Kakuzu, since he observed many highly skilled shinobi fighting in his placement in the war. Still unlikely enough to put him with Kisame or Sasori.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Considering that Kishimoto* wants readers to consider Stat-Totals as representative of a certain characters Overall or Total ability*, he very clearly is designing the stats so the totals reflect who Kishi considers the better shinobi.




No.

No no no.

Zabuza- 30.5
Shizune- 29.5
Kazekage Gaara- 29.

Iruka- 24
Haku- 21

Wave Arc Kakashi, no Sharingan- 33
Kisame- 32.5
Kakuzu- 32.5
Deidara- 32

Those are just some examples as  of why stat totals should be disregarded.


----------



## Kai (Mar 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> "MS Obito" usually refers to Akatsuki-cloak Tobi, who cannot actually summon Kurama anymore. EMS Madara typically means Madara back at the VotE, who could summon it..
> 
> If it was the Masked Man from the Kyubi Attack flashback, he would have the Kyubi just like EMS Madara (at least he should).


Honestly feel this is a reader's perception of things rather than what the manga has portrayed Kyuubi to be for Madara and Obito.

Madara lived the following 60+ years of his lifetime without any interaction or relationship with Kurama whatsoever. The reader's perception comes into play here, because an illustration of Madara's life during this time is mostly in the dark. You can bet that the more Madara's post-VOTE life is revealed, the greater the separation of Kurama as Madara's "signature ability" will be familiarized.


----------



## ardahanpolat (Mar 31, 2014)

1. Tobi/
2. Nagato/Pein
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru
5. Konan
6. Deidara
7. Kisame
8. Sasori
9. Hidan
10.Kakuzu
11.Zetsu


İn my opinion


----------



## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> No no no.
> 
> ...



I think Irukas states is 26, just like naruto and Sakura.@@


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

The DB stats IMO are too inconsistent and too often contradict what we actually see happening in the manga to be taken seriously. I also still question how involved Kishi actually is in their publication.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Rocky said:


> No.
> 
> No no no.
> 
> ...


Rocky explain why these examples are faulty. I bet it's based on feats, rather than anything really substantial. I would also bet that it is due to not considering the stats in context with the manga-cannon. 

For example: Shizune may very well be a better Ninja than Gaara, but she is support oriented so it's extremely unlikely that shed ever be able to beat him in a direct fight. Also in terms of Gaara in general, he had lost the Shukaku in the first arc of Part II, we only got to see him fight again fully in the War-Arc; 5-arcs later. DB III goes up to Uchiha-Bros Arc. What Gaara's power was like between loosing Shukaku to the War-Arc is a complete mystery to us. It's very possible that Gaara had to train his ass off to make up for the loss of Shukaku during that time, which he finally did by the war-arc. So it is possible that there was a time-period between Gaara loosing Shukaku and Gaara training to cope with that, where Zabuza was indeed superior to him. Especially if we take away the fact that Gaara is always conveniently given the topographic advantage in most of his fights. Zabuza is not chop liver himself.

In the case of Iruka and Haku, yeah Iruka is better, the manga makes that extremely clear, when Naruto only considers himself, maybe better than Iruka after the time-skip, and even than Iruka doesn't completely agree. Like-wise Iruka being a Chuunin, when Haku was having a tough time with Wave-Arc Naruto/Sasuke who didn't reach Chuunin-level to the Chuunin Exams Finals. Not to mention Iruka even causing minor difficulties to current Naruto with his binding seal, blows anything Haku demonstrated out of the water. Again the only reason to think it's crazy is if we go off feats, which Iruka has very few off; or if were going off Chapter 1, without considering that chapter 1 was more of a prototype than anything that should be taken seriously.

As for the Kakashi stuff, first off DBI is not Wave-Arc Kakashi, that would be Kakashi Stats after him training a bit to get back into shape. Secondly the major thing that should be considered there is that Kishimoto for whatever reasons counts Sharingan into someone's DB-Stats. Problem is contextually we know Kakashi gets drained heavily by Sharingan and therefore can't consistently use it until Part II, when he increases his proficiency with it. So Kakashi's Ranking is only going to reflect him at his best with Sharingan activated, but he won't be able to maintain that level for long against Shinobi of the caliber your citing in Part I. Hence why at his best he'd be slight* better than their "base-forms", but not consistently. Than we bring in things like Jingo-Form and Samehada/Kisamehada, and it's plain to see how everything falls in line with the stats.



The Format said:


> The DB stats IMO are too inconsistent and too often contradict what we actually see happening in the manga to be taken seriously. I also still question how involved Kishi actually is in their publication.


I've yet to see one inconsistency. The problem is that people want to look at just the number and than not consider anything else, when there are things that expand beyond the base number itself when taken into context with the manga. The number is more of a base-reading, than there are other things that matter outside of it; magic weapons, ascended forms, etc.... Besides that another issue is that people on these forums only give credit, to shinobi's ability in terms of how they perform in a 1v1 fight, when not all shinobi specialize in combat, but have skills in other areas that will excel them beyond combat fighters when looked at holistically. 

For example Shizune would probably get her ass kicked by Base-DBIII Naruto most of the time, despite having a better stat total than him. However she is not combat oriented. But it's very reasonable to see the chick that followed around and trained with a Legendary Sannin for many years being holistically a better shinobi than Base-DBIII Naruto, as she can do crazy shit, like brew poisons that can be applied to weapons where even if the person merely touches them [not even scratched] they are done, perform complex medical procedures, etc....Same thing applies to someone like Ibiki who has a better stat total than Base-DBIII Naruto, again probably would get his ass kicked in a fight, but holistically he can easily be seen as the better shinobi, given his expertise in other areas.


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 31, 2014)

Stat-totals are fan-made. They are not present in Databooks.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 31, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Stat-totals are fan-made. They are not present in Databooks.



Says who?!


----------



## Kai (Mar 31, 2014)

If examples are presented to us where shinobi with better stats (greater shinobi) can't defeat shinobi with lesser stats in a direct fight, then stat totals are not meant to be taken for direct fight consideration.

DB Stat totals are an evaluation of individual ability; they are not meant to be 'totaled' or compared, let alone compared in a full fight providing multiple dimensions that are unable to be simplified by DB stats.


----------



## Rocky (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> For example: Shizune may very well be a better Ninja than Gaara, but she is support oriented so it's extremely unlikely that shed ever be able to beat him in a direct fight.




Shizune and Hidan are not better shinobi than Kazekage Gaara. You actually think Kishimoto would vouch for that? 



> Also in terms of Gaara in general, he had lost the Shukaku in the first arc of Part II, we only got to see him fight again fully in the War-Arc; 5-arcs later. DB III goes up to Uchiha-Bros Arc. What Gaara's power was like between loosing Shukaku to the War-Arc is a complete mystery to us. It's very possible that Gaara had to train his ass off to make up for the loss of Shukaku during that time, which he finally did by the war-arc. So it is possible that there was a time-period between Gaara loosing Shukaku and Gaara training to cope with that.




Plausible, but you need to prove that.



> In the case of Iruka and Haku, yeah Iruka is better, the manga makes that extremely clear, when Naruto only considers himself, maybe better than Iruka after the time-skip, and even than Iruka doesn't completely agree. Like-wise Iruka being a Chuunin, when Haku was having a tough time with Wave-Arc Naruto/Sasuke who didn't reach Chuunin-level to the Chuunin Exams Finals. Not to mention Iruka even causing minor difficulties to current Naruto with his binding seal, blows anything Haku demonstrated out of the water. Again the only reason to think it's crazy is if we go off feats, which Iruka has very few off; or if were going off Chapter 1, without considering that chapter 1 was more of a prototype than anything that should be taken seriously.




Chapter 1 Naruto beat a Chunin on Iruka's level. Any form of Part 2 Naruto stomps mercilessly. It wasn't a prototype, it was canon. Just as canon as any other chapter...

Also, Haku didn't have a tough time with the kids. He was hesitant to kill them, which allowed them to stay in it. Haku only struggled with Kyubi Naruto, who isn't Genin level. It's also worth it to note that Zabuza thought Haku had a chance to beat Kakashi.



> As for the Kakashi stuff, first off DBI is not Wave-Arc Kakashi, that would be Kakashi Stats after him training a bit to get back into shape. Secondly the major thing that should be considered there is that Kishimoto for whatever reasons counts Sharingan into someone's DB-Stats. Problem is contextually we know Kakashi gets drained heavily by Sharingan and therefore can't consistently use it until Part II, when he increases his proficiency with it. So Kakashi's Ranking is only going to reflect him at his best with Sharingan activated, but he won't be able to maintain that level for long against Shinobi of the caliber your sighting in Part I. Hence why at his best he'd be slight* better than their "base-forms", but not consistently. Than we bring in things like Jingo-Form and Samehada/Kisamehada, and it's plain to see how everything falls in line with the stats.




Kakashi, even at his best in Part 1, would be slaughtered by the Akatsuki I listed, even in their "base" forms. He could barley hang with them in Part 2....


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 31, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Says who?!


Says me. I saw scans of every available Databook. You can check them yourself. Stat Diagram is present in every character profile. That's all. First Databook had gauges Total Ability, Latent Potential and Luck but they weren't tied to stats.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Kai said:


> If examples are presented to us where shinobi with better stats (greater shinobi) can't defeat shinobi with lesser stats in a direct fight, then stat totals are not meant to be taken for direct fight consideration.
> .


It depends on the Shinobi. Your trying to make this an all or nothing sort of thing, but in reality all it takes is looking at the stats in context with the manga cannon. If your brining a support oriented Shinobi's stats to the table and than saying look Shizune wouldn't beat Gaara, so the stats are flawed, your already going about it in the wrong way.



alex payne said:


> Says me. I saw scans of every available Databook. You can check them yourself. Stat Diagram is present in every character profile. That's all. First Databook had gauges Total Ability, Latent Potential and Luck but they weren't tied to stats.





> DB Stat totals are an evaluation of individual ability; they are not meant to be 'totaled' or compared, let alone compared in a full fight providing multiple dimensions that are unable to be simplified by DB stats.


I literally just quoted the author, who says differently. This isn't even up for discussion.



Rocky said:


> Shizune and Hidan are not better shinobi than Kazekage Gaara. You actually think Kishimoto would vouch for that?
> .


The Kazekage Gaara we saw was the one with Shukaku sealed in him [and fighting with the topographic advantage]. DBIII Gaara, is Gaara post Shukaku extraction and 3-Arcs prior to the war; might be even a bit more than that depending on when Kishi wrote the DB versus when it was officially released. So your opinion on Gaara's abilities during the time-period holds absolutely zero merit, considering you have nothing to base Gaara's abilities off of, but the DB-Stats which you are rejecting.

As for the actual question, considering that Kishimoto specifically did vouch for that in the DB, the only answer one can give to that question is yes. Again does that mean Kishi is vouching for Shizune beating Gaara in a fight; of course not, because Shizune is a support specialist, while Gaara is combat specialist.  Your trying to put a world renowned doctor in a fight with famous boxer; even if that doctor is ranked 5th in the world while that boxer is ranked 12th, what do you think is going to happen if the two fought?



> Plausible, but you need to prove that.


Prove what exactly? That we don't know Gaara's strength between losing Shukaku and the War-arc? Because that is straight up fact; unless of course we look at the DB. 

Edit: Heck we don't even know Gaara's strength pre-Shukaku extraction when not fighting with the topographic advantage.



> Chapter 1 Naruto beat a Chunin on Iruka's level.


Again why are we taking Ch1 seriously when it very clearly was a simple prototype designed to get the series picked up. Even than Mizuki never proves his superiority over Iruka in ch1 anyway.



> Any form of Part 2 Naruto stomps mercilessly


Part 2 Naruto would also stomp Haku, so how does this in anyway help your case. 



> Also, Haku didn't have a tough time with the kids. He was hesitant to kill them, which allowed them to stay in it. Haku only struggled with Kyubi Naruto, who isn't Genin level. It's also worth it to note that Zabuza thought Haku had a chance to beat Kakashi.


Zabuza thought Haku could beat Kakashi after Kakashi had exhausted himself fighting Zabuza.

Haku did struggle with 2-Tome Sasuke and KN0 completely dominated Haku. 

Also again let's consider something here, Iruka does not appear to be combat specialist, he appears to be a teach/tutor/etc... specialist, in the same vein as Ebizu. That too may be part of the reason why he hasn't gotten much focus combat-wise, but is still considered holistically a shinobi comparable to the likes of Part 2-Base Naruto. Again it's like putting a top rated berkley professor into the ring with a semi famous boxer.



> Kakashi, even at his best in Part 1, would be slaughtered by the Akatsuki I listed, even in their "base" forms. He could barley hang with them in Part 2....


Again what is this based on; feats? Which are extremely irrelevant in Kakashi's case because we never will see even fraction of Kakashi's entire arsenal of Jutsu? Part I Kakashi was keeping up with Three-Tome Itachi, the only thing giving Itachi the edge was Kakashi's inability to keep Sharingan activated. Thee-Tome Itachi is easily comparable if not better than Shinobi like Deidara and Kakuzu w/o Jingo-Mode. Or to look at it another way, Part I Kakashi is virtually the same as Part II Kakashi, except Sharingan mastery. Part II Kakashi was keeping up with both Hidan and Kakuzu at the same time, as well as protecting Ino-Choji; he eventually got overwhelmed when Kakuzu used Jingo mode, and than he was about to use Mangekyo-Sharingan, but really nothing reflects that Three-Tome Kakashi couldn't hang with these guys; except the stamina issues with Sharingan, that Part I Kakashi had.


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I literally just quoted the author, who says differently. This isn't even up for discussion.


I have DB3 raw before me. There is nothing about stat totals. Can you give me page number or scanlataion?


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

alex payne said:


> I have DB3 raw before me. There is nothing about stat totals. Can you give me page number or scanlataion?


It's from DBI I believe. You'd have to ask Undying for a page number he provided the scan, which was then translated by Gottheim and Weapon.

Edit: Weapon might also know the page number, so you could ask him/her, as well


----------



## Alex Payne (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> It's from DBI I believe. You'd have to ask Undying for a page number he provided the scan, which was then translated by Gottheim and Weapon.
> 
> Edit: Weapon might also know the page number, so you could ask him/her, as well


Just as I thought. Like I've said - DB1 also had Potential and Luck. And all 3 of those gauges were missing in DB2 and DB3. For a reason I think.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Mar 31, 2014)

I have always firmly believe that Databook stat totals reflect where kishi wants us to see certain characters 

for example Jiraiya and Itachi were top dogs throughout most of the manga up until Minato , Nagato entered the picture and I can almost guarantee Minato and Nagato will have stat totals that are higher than 35.5, just like we can conclude the Rikudo's will probably have 40 or close to 40 


as for Naruto,Sakura,Gaara you have to understand they were born with more latent potential than someone like Iruka or Shizune but the they are still growing while Iruka is a finished product , he has more experience and has overall mastered more ninja skills overall at that point in time of the manga but compare them now and I'm pretty sure Naruto, Sakura, Gaara are higher than Iruka , the datebook is a simple system that is basically designed to tell you how you should view certain characters 

what people have to understand about the manga is FEATS ARE OVERRATED they will always come second to the authors own words


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Just as I thought. Like I've said - DB1 also had Potential and Luck. And all 3 of those gauges were missing in DB2 and DB3. For a reason I think.


Well there was no reason to guess, it refers specifically to the Total ability thing, which was not present in DBIII [don't think DBII ether, but not sure].

With that said, Implying he excluded total potential, because he no longer wanted people to look at stat totals, I do not think is accurate at all. Total-potential was most likely excluded because it relies on a needless equation and is simply another time-consuming thing Kishi would have to do for an already time consuming book. Once people were already made aware of how to do this in DBI, there is no reason to waste time doing it for them in consecutive DB; so let's save time and leave it out. Still very clearly demonstrates that stat-totals were considered by the author as a measure of each shinobi's ability and that designed them with that in mind; and I think that is very much evident if one looks at the stat totals from the DB's. It's high unlikely to me that Jiriaya and Itachi respectively end up with the highest and same stat totals by chance; or Tsunade and Orochimaru arriving at the same stat totals by chance.

As for why Luck and Potential are excluded IDK, without seeing the translation of how those parameters are derived I can't possibly even speculate.


----------



## StickaStick (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> I've yet to see one inconsistency. The problem is that people want to look at just the number and than not consider anything else, when there are things that expand beyond the base number itself when taken into context with the manga. The number is more of a base-reading, than there are other things that matter outside of it; magic weapons, ascended forms, etc.... Besides that another issue is that people on these forums only give credit, to shinobi's ability in terms of how they perform in a 1v1 fight, when not all shinobi specialize in combat, but have skills in other areas that will excel them beyond combat fighters when looked at holistically.
> 
> For example Shizune would probably get her ass kicked by Base-DBIII Naruto most of the time, despite having a better stat total than him. However she is not combat oriented. But it's very reasonable to see the chick that followed around and trained with a Legendary Sannin for many years being holistically a better shinobi than Base-DBIII Naruto, as she can do crazy shit, like brew poisons that can be applied to weapons where even if the person merely touches them [not even scratched] they are done, perform complex medical procedures, etc....Same thing applies to someone like Ibiki who has a better stat total than Base-DBIII Naruto, again probably would get his ass kicked in a fight, but holistically he can easily be seen as the better shinobi, given his expertise in other areas.



Maybe I'm missing something with the whole stat-totaling concept, but this doesn't make sense to me. You seem to be inferring that that stat-totals on a relative basis can be used to rank different ninja in comparison to each other. Shizune totals-out with a respectable 29.5, which you seem to be attributing to her abilities as a medical ninja. So basically in her realm of specialty she's earned that 29.5. However, broken-down, that 29.5 is comprised of: ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjustsu, intelligence, strength, speed, stamina, and hand seals. Out of these it would seem only intelligence and hand seals would relate to medical abilities. Everything else appears to be stat-padding, so to speak, which would seem to inflate her total.

I also have a problem with awarding equal weight to, for instance, medical abilities as would be awarded to straight up  combat ability. If we go by stat totals then Shizune would appear to posse a more valuable skill-set as opposed to some other predominately combat oriented ninja. There's no doubt that a medical ninja is a very valuable asset, but to say that her expertise in the medical arena (and thus justifying her stat total, I guess) would put her above ninja's who posse a more valueless skill set (i.e., combat specialty) seems off to me.

I guess the problem I have here it with how it's being weighted.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

The Format said:


> Maybe I'm missing something with the whole stat-totaling concept, but this doesn't make sense to me. You seem to be inferring that that stat-totals on a relative basis can be used to rank different ninja in comparison to each other. Shizune totals-out with a respectable 29.5, which you seem to be attributing to her abilities as a medical ninja. So basically in her realm of specialty she's earned that 29.5. However, broken-down, that 29.5 is comprised of: ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjustsu, intelligence, strength, speed, stamina, and hand seals. Out of these it would seem only intelligence and hand seals would relate to medical abilities. Everything else appears to be stat-padding, so to speak, which would seem to inflate her total.


It's not just Hand-Seals and Knowledge. 

Her Ninjutsu stat would also be effected by her knowledge and skill with Medical-Ninjutsu.

Additionally considering that Tai, Nin, and Gen stats are not just proficiency in these areas, but also knowledge of these areas, these stats may also reflect her expertise as a medic. After all as a medic it is probably prudent to know the effects of as many Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and Genjutsu attacks as possible, in-order to determine which treatment is most suitable; the same way a doctor studies symptoms of various illnesses, etc....

Of course knowing more about many Jutsu will also help in combat, but if the primary focus is how to treat them as a medical Ninja, it's not like Shizune is going to be developing ways to counter these Jutsu if she fought them in battle, but simply ways to counter-act their effects with medical ninjutsu.

Finally Shizune's speed is most likely developed for evasion purposes, as typically the medics role in battle is to keep their distance so they can support their team-mates. Again this will be good for playing keep away while her allies engage the enemy, but without any real combat expertise Shizune is not going to be in the thick of it, and that is exactly what her stats reflect, with her getting a high speed score, but low Taijutsu score.

Take all of Shizune's skills she developed in relation to medical Jutsu away and Shizune is not nearly going to get the total that she has in the DB.



> I also have a problem with awarding equal weight to, for instance, medical abilities as would be awarded to straight up combat ability. If we go by stat totals then Shizune would appear to posse a more valuable skill-set as opposed to some other predominately combat oriented ninja. There's no doubt that a medical ninja is a very valuable asset, but to say that her expertise in the medical arena (and thus justifying her stat total, I guess) would put her above ninja's who posse a more valueless skill set (i.e., combat specialty) seems off to me.


I think the issue your having relates to a bit of underestimation of Shizune. Shizune is not just some medic or even some elite medic, she is one of the best medical ninja in the entire Naruto world, having studied under Tsunade for such a great degree of time. Really the only shinobi we've seen excel her in medical ninjutsu are Tsunade, Sakura, and Kabuto; other than them Shizune so far stands at 4th best, maybe 5th best if we consider Chiyo's life giving Jutsu medical ninjutsu [but we shouldn't because it was directly stated to not be a medical ninjutsu lol].


----------



## Weapon (Mar 31, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Just as I thought. Like I've said - DB1 also had Potential and Luck. And all 3 of those gauges were missing in DB2 and DB3. For a reason I think.



It's pretty simple to speculate why Potential and Luck were disregarded:

*Potential*: Constantly changing, too diverse and hard to actually judge. This statistic too was only official for some characters who had the foreshadow. Everyone else it was just random pretty much to decide it.
*Luck*: Self explanatory, luck is like a coin toss. Shouldn't be apart of a statistic equation. Luck pretty much falls into the negatives of ones Mind and Intelligence for making a miscalculation in battle.

This True Ability calculation can be considered as carrying over, I don't see the point of it needing to be stated every book especially since a majority of the statistics and content were just reprinted. You can say it's not exactly warning, read this first before continuing. It's just common sense. 

They now serve as fanbase *Evidence C* really. 

Also, @ Turrin 

When it comes to ranking the Akatsuki officially for that time, then that is pretty much correct from what we saw from them. If they make a new one though, expect a massive jump from Kisame in my honest opinion. He has two fight scenarios that solidify this:

- Bee Fight
- Gai Fight

I see Kisame moving, I don't see Hidan moving regardless of his tools. Even if everything is added into the equation then I don't see how that would help him out. Then again who knows, I'm honestly still rooting for an entire shift post series of statistics and average balance.

With the original page number too; *NDB: Hiden Rin no Sho Pg. 14*

Also for everyone else, I explained to Turrin how they should be used especially for the the time it was released. Turrin for his own clarification and understanding then reworded it with an actual example, so everyone should read this [Most appropriate ranking source, not necessarily evident material for a battle]:


Statistic-Totals basically ranks a person as an overall Shinobi, but certain Shinobi specialize in different areas. So just a hypothetical example, Shinobi A might have a higher statistics-Total than Shinobi B, but Shinobi A's statistics might be higher because he scored 5s in Intelligence and Hand-Seals, while Shinobi B's scored better statistics in combat oriented areas like Genjutsu/Ninjutsu/Taijutsu; Shinobi B might very well still win because he is more suited for 1v1 combat than Shinobi A. Though many other areas Shinobi A would excel Shinobi B, since Shinobi A is still holistically a better Shinobi. For example something like Ibiki vs Naruto, Naruto would probably win, because his statistics are more combat oriented than Ibiki, despite Ibiki having the better overall statistic total.

Someone should make a Battledome thread or something for discussion on this topic, I think it's getting too off topic in here but it's actually an interesting topic to discuss as a group.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

@Weapon

Yeah I completely agree with you about Kisame jumping higher in DBIV. His total was 32.5. I expect his total will probably be 33-34.5 in DBIV. I could easily see him getting a .5 or 1 Tier Increase in speed, .5 increase in intelligence, and .5 increase in taijutsu. Granted I could be overrating Kisame's improvements.

And on the Hidan thing, I don't think he'll increase, I was just saying his stat total doesn't fully demonstrate all of his power as his scythe's magic abilities aren't accounted for in the stats, so he might be a bit better than 31.5; hard to say though as Kishi never showed use what his scythe could really do; I mean supposedly it could duplicate, but what would that even look like exactly.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> And on the Hidan thing, I don't think he'll increase, I was just saying his stat total doesn't fully demonstrate all of his power as his scythe's magic abilities aren't accounted for in the stats, so he might be a bit better than 31.5; hard to say though as Kishi never showed use what his scythe could really do; I mean supposedly it could duplicate, but what would that even look like exactly.



My bad, I completely misread what you wrote previously. 

Anyways, My DB4 Kisame Predictions:

*DB3*:

4:5 | 4.5 | 2.5 | 3.5 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 3.5 | 32.5

*DB4*:

5 | 4.5 | 2 | 4.5 | 5 | 4.5 | 5 | 3.5 | 34

Ninjutsu obviously increasing
I see his Taijutsu staying the same. 
Genjutsu dropping from what little we saw of it, compensating and going into boosting his Intelligence and Speed. 
Stamina and Strength still a perfect 5.
Hand seals untouched / No credible change.


----------



## The Undying (Mar 31, 2014)

The thing about stat totals is that Kishi explicitly said he regards them as a character's "true ability". Including a gauge for them would have been pointless in DB2 and DB3 because the way it was structured, everyone would have had full guages.

And obviously potential and luck don't just cease to exist just because they didn't have meters for them included in later databooks. There's no reason to assume total ability stopped existing either.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Weapon said:


> My bad, I completely misread what you wrote previously.
> 
> Anyways, My DB4 Kisame Predictions:
> 
> ...


Agree with your total, but don't see Kishi having someone drop in any stats, unless they were to get sick or something.


----------



## Weapon (Mar 31, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Agree with your total, but don't see Kishi having someone drop in any stats, unless they were to get sick or something.



I mean, we saw close to nothing Genjutsu wise for him. Unless you think he should have the 34.5. I also have a another idea how they might theory craft the new book whilst still taking account previous stats and not altering them too much. 

@ Undying, the point should be understand by now by people in BD.
It's for sole ranking purposes but not evidence for a battle scenario.

I addressed earlier my reasoning behind why Potential and Luck, especially after the events of DB3 shouldn't matter now:



> It's pretty simple to speculate why Potential and Luck were disregarded:
> 
> Potential: Constantly changing, too diverse and hard to actually judge. This statistic too was only official for some characters who had the foreshadow. Everyone else it was just random pretty much to decide it.
> Luck: Self explanatory, luck is like a coin toss. Shouldn't be apart of a statistic equation. Luck pretty much falls into the negatives of ones Mind and Intelligence for making a miscalculation in battle.
> ...


----------



## The Undying (Mar 31, 2014)

Weapon said:


> @ Undying, the point should be understand by now by people in BD.
> It's for sole ranking purposes but not evidence for a battle scenario.



I agree with that. It's just that for the longest time, people acted like no databook ever mentioned anything about adding stats up. This seems to have been an overlooked detail, especially for those having no familiarity with Rin no Sho.


----------



## Turrin (Mar 31, 2014)

Weapon said:


> I mean, we saw close to nothing Genjutsu wise for him. Unless you think he should have the 34.5. I also have a another idea how they might theory craft the new book whilst still taking account previous stats and not altering them too much.
> 
> @ Undying, the point should be understand by now by people in BD.
> It's for sole ranking purposes but not evidence for a battle scenario.
> ...


I'd like to hear your thoughts on it, but we should probably transfer this to VMs, since talking about how DBIV will play out is pretty off topic.

Also by the by, maybe i'm pessimistic, but I honestly believe Kishi and the staff working on the DB, probably didn't include Total Ability, Potential, and Luck anymore because they didn't want extra work. I feel like they had little content in DBI, so they had to fill out space and therefore went into as much detail as possible, but for DBII and DIII, they had tons of stuff to get into, so didn't bother going into that much detail for each character. I mean maybe someone can confirm this or not, but didn't they also record shit in DBI like favorite food, which they didn't list for DBII [or was it DBIII]. Honestly this is why I think DBIV, if it's ever released at all, will have even less detailed information, considering the massive amount of stuff they now have to record.


----------



## Cognitios (Mar 31, 2014)

> Agree with your total, but don't see Kishi having someone drop in any stats, unless they were to get sick or something.


I feel like Choji had his drop from the second to the 3rd. or something like that.


----------



## Weapon (Apr 1, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Also by the by, maybe i'm pessimistic, but I honestly believe Kishi and the staff working on the DB, probably didn't include Total Ability, Potential, and Luck anymore because they didn't want extra work. I feel like they had little content in DBI, so they had to fill out space and therefore went into as much detail as possible, but for DBII and DIII, they had tons of stuff to get into, so didn't bother going into that much detail for each character. I mean maybe someone can confirm this or not, but didn't they also record shit in DBI like favorite food, which they didn't list for DBII [or was it DBIII]. Honestly this is why I think DBIV, if it's ever released at all, will have even less detailed information, considering the massive amount of stuff they now have to record.



Total Ability isn't something that needs to be reinforced every book or be warned about before reading on. As for Potential and Luck, it would of required extra work because it's stupid and you can't really decide on it properly for ever character. I mean, if they do something wrong they can screw up the whole outlook of a character and deceive the fanbase. 

Say a character we haven't seen before or take character 1 for example, they have mediocre stats lets say 2 - 3.5 across the proper 8 factors. Now let's give them a 5 for Potential and Luck. Does this mean, someone who maxes out  charts but has a 1 in Luck and 1 in intelligence loses to this guy? I see those two factors unnecessary not lazy to be incorporated because they would have to be done carefully and properly especially potential. 

Are you aware of the Hyrule Historia, would you be satisfied if after the series Kishimoto releases something similar; a whole bunch of information about everything and in-depth character profiles and statistics?


----------



## The Undying (Apr 1, 2014)

Weapon said:


> Total Ability isn't something that needs to be reinforced every book or be warned about before reading on. As for Potential and Luck, it would of required extra work because it's stupid and you can't really decide on it properly for ever character. I mean, if they do something wrong they can screw up the whole outlook of a character and deceive the fanbase.




There's also the glaring problem that Total Ability, Potential, and Luck was measured by a 5-point system. Every stat total that was at least a 30 was good enough to fill up the Total Ability meter with all five points. If that same limited system was applied to DB2 and DB3, there would be no way to differentiate between the overall standing of sooo many characters because of the obvious power increase towards the timeskip; everyone with a 30 or more would have filled up Total Ability meters.

I like your point about the incongruity of Potential and Luck, but I think these were ultimately excluded because Kishi realized how limited his guage systems were. I believe he just didn't bother to alter them.


----------



## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

TBH it would probably go like this...

Healthy Itachi/Nagato
MS Obito
Sick Itachi/Pein
--
Sasori
Kisame
--
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
--
Hidan
Zetsu


----------

