# NBD General Consensus on Jiraiya or Itachi



## Shazam (Feb 14, 2019)

Same as WS thread

Here we will use these two at their physical living peaks


Jiraiya starts in SM with all available summons out
Itachi is living and healthy with MS
Full intel for both


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## Ishmael (Feb 14, 2019)

I only see jiraiya competing with itachi with SM honestly. Even then I see him falling giving mid diff at most.

I will add and say that I can see jiraiya pulling out a win, If he's able to get into SM. He only falls imo due to him needing prep to get into the form needed for fighting itachi.


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## Maverick04 (Feb 14, 2019)

Itachi for the win here..Sick Itachi vs SM Jiraiya could go either way

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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2019)

General consensus here is that SM Jiraiya, but this is the same community in which majority believe SM Jiraiya is equal to DSM Kabuto and by extension, SM Minato simply because he's a Sage and thus, all Sages must inherit all other Sages feats. Very ironic considering people are unwilling to translate Madara and Obito's feats to Itachi despite the fact that he has a Sharingan and their speed and reflexes are attributed to the Sharingan, so Itachi would literally have speeds that can befuddle SM Naruto and Tobirama and reactions that can effectively dodge and parry a Juubi Jin reactive EMS Sasuke.

 On that note, Itachi would most likely win. His performance against Nagato vastly exceeds SM Jiraiya's performance against a vastly inferior Pain. Before people throw out some bullshit on a whim such as Nagato being preoccupied with Bee and KCM Naruto, let me assure you that SM Naruto is a far superior Sage who had the assistance of two Perfect Sages and the top three strongest Toads in existence who can physically wrestle with a Bijuu. In spite of the similarities, SM Naruto's feat is weighed and valued higher than Itachi's in spite of similar circumstances in which Itachi literally circumvented the Rinnegan far more quickly than Naruto could with no advantages such as crucial intel that Itachi had to discover for himself in the midst of a chapter or so.

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## Shazam (Feb 14, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> General consensus here is that SM Jiraiya, but this is the same community in which majority believe SM Jiraiya is equal to DSM Kabuto and by extension, SM Minato simply because he's a Sage and thus, all Sages must inherit all other Sages feats. Very ironic considering people are unwilling to translate Madara and Obito's feats to Itachi despite the fact that he has a Sharingan and their speed and reflexes are attributed to the Sharingan, so Itachi would literally have speeds that can befuddle SM Naruto and Tobirama and reactions that can effectively dodge and parry a Juubi Jin reactive EMS Sasuke.
> 
> On that note, Itachi would most likely win. His performance against Nagato vastly exceeds SM Jiraiya's performance against a vastly inferior Pain. Before people throw out some bullshit on a whim such as Nagato being preoccupied with Bee and KCM Naruto, let me assure you that SM Naruto is a far superior Sage who had the assistance of two Perfect Sages and the top three strongest Toads in existence who can physically wrestle with a Bijuu. In spite of the similarities, SM Naruto's feat is weighed and valued higher than Itachi's in spite of similar circumstances in which Itachi literally circumvented the Rinnegan far more quickly than Naruto could with no advantages such as crucial intel that Itachi had to discover for himself in the midst of a chapter or so.



There is no reason to compare Itachi to Obito, Minato and certainly not fucking Madara of all people. 

Whether or not the consensus has Itachi higher than Jiraiya really isnt the point so much as it should be believed that they are relativistic, while Itachi and minato are not, and that Jiraiya and Minato are not either.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2019)

Shazam said:


> There is no reason to compare Itachi to Obito, Minato and certainly not fucking Madara of all people.
> 
> Whether or not the consensus has Itachi higher than Jiraiya really isnt the point so much as it should be believed that they are *relativistic*, while Itachi and minato are not, and that Jiraiya and Minato are not either.



 You clearly did not read my post. Please try again. I'm simply exposing the shitty logic that has been circulating here.

 Though do explain to me what this word is. I haven't debated in a year, so my vocabulary is rusty.


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## Bookworm (Feb 14, 2019)

Shazam said:


> There is no reason to compare Itachi to Obito, Minato and certainly not fucking Madara of all people.
> 
> Whether or not the consensus has Itachi higher than Jiraiya really isnt the point so much as it should be believed that they are relativistic, while Itachi and minato are not, and that Jiraiya and Minato are not either.


Itachi can compete with Minato, as for Jiraiya vs Itachi, Jiraiya can win if he is given enough advantages.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 14, 2019)

Feats goes to Itachi.

Portrayal, (which means Character "x" statements = the author) :

*Link Removed*

This is usually avoided by Jiraiya's camp.

But when it's addressed, the responses are... far from adequate to say the least.

As above. Kisame is not asking why Itachi didn't _fight and die_ along with Jiraiya. He already knows Itachi errs on the side of caution amidst _any_ possible dangers - see Itachi warning Kisame about both Kakashi and Gai. Already knows that itachi would rather tackle a problem _without_ fighting at all. Such as hypnotising a sexy distraction to remove Jiraiya from Naruto. And Kisame knows that he's a flighty person in general. He's also not trying to establish Itachi's limitations with the MS. Kisame already stated the dangers of "overusing that eye" twice before this question above. Unless he's wondering why Itachi didn't fire off said Amaterasu at Jiraiya himself instead of wall. So based off the context and relationship between these characters, Kisame thinks a clean victory without much eye straining or grave danger is probable for Itachi. The feats support this notion. See 13 yr old Itachi vs Orochimaru.

Furthermore we can reconsider Itachi's "we'd both die if we fought each other" regarding the above and that fact Jiraiya is being discussed within the context of being "one of the legendary sannin" as oppose to his individual accolades. Which garuntees Itachi's statement is a lie. That a liar, who's lied to Kisame before..._ lied. _

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## Eliyua23 (Feb 14, 2019)

This debate has been going on for decades my general consensus is that Jiraiya was comparable to Itachi fighting illness that  couldn’t use MS to its fullest extent like we saw against Hebi Sasuke , using Susanoo for a short duration was enough to kill him , hence why he says at best we would draw meaning the best outcome would be to seal Jiraiya like he did Orochimaru whole dying on the process and that’s the best he could hope for seeing as how Jiriaya was stronger than Orochimaru at that time .

Now Edo Itachi is supposed to be Kishi’s way of showing is what a normal healthy Itachi could do that wasn’t fighting illness and able to take advantage of the MS , that Itachi is on another tier than Jiraiya his physical speed/reaction CQC ability is superior as we see him dodging Bee and keeping up with Naruto , he’s able to pretty much spam Susanoo which gives him greater odds against Jiriaya’s SM And we see he can get Totsuka and keep it moving like he did against Nagato , plus his tactical mind superior .

Jiriaya >\= Sick Itachi 

Healthy Itachi > Jiriaya

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## Sapherosth (Feb 14, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> This debate has been going on for decades my general consensus is that Jiraiya was comparable to Itachi fighting illness that  couldn’t use MS to its fullest extent like we saw against Hebi Sasuke , using Susanoo for a short duration was enough to kill him , hence why he says at best we would draw meaning the best outcome would be to seal Jiraiya like he did Orochimaru whole dying on the process and that’s the best he could hope for seeing as how Jiriaya was stronger than Orochimaru at that time .
> 
> Now Edo Itachi is supposed to be Kishi’s way of showing is what a normal healthy Itachi could do that wasn’t fighting illness and able to take advantage of the MS , that Itachi is on another tier than Jiraiya his physical speed/reaction CQC ability is superior as we see him dodging Bee and keeping up with Naruto , he’s able to pretty much spam Susanoo which gives him greater odds against Jiriaya’s SM And we see he can get Totsuka and keep it moving like he did against Nagato , plus his tactical mind superior .
> 
> ...




Why do you think Itachi couldn't use MS to the fullest? 

As far as I know, a dying Itachi manifested V4 Susano for a while whereas a fully HEALTHY MS Sasuke couldn't even use V4 Susano until he was completely strained and depleted. It was also for a second too, far less than Itachi. 

Now based on this, how could you realistically say that Itachi cannot use MS to the fullest? 


Susano only killed Itachi because of what Itachi did BEFORE using Susano. People seem to completely ignore that. Remove all the clones, tsukuyomi and amateratsu I am sure Itachi can use Susano long enough to kill J man

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## MaruUchiha (Feb 14, 2019)

Not this again.. Itachi can solo the Sanin get over it Jiraiya cult!


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## oiety (Feb 14, 2019)

As has been said, I find myself of the belief that while the Itachi we got that fought Sasuke could go heads or tails against SM Jiraiya (though, it must be said, I favor Itachi 6/10 in that scenario) a healthier one is probably taking a flat majority, something more like 8, or 9. More usages of MS, more potential Susano'o time, and more clone feinting capability lead me solidly to Itachi's victory.


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## Kai (Feb 14, 2019)

Itachi > Orochimaru >/= Jman as an old rule of thumb IMO.

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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2019)

Kai said:


> Itachi > Orochimaru >/= Jman as an old rule of thumb IMO.



 Woah Kai, that is very offensive. You apologize to the Jiraiya fans right now.


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## Tri (Feb 14, 2019)

I generally have Itachi as the superior of the two and he should also win a majority of the time against Jiraiya here.

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## Bonly (Feb 14, 2019)

Jiraiya is gonna get overwhelmed and killed by the MS jutsu once Itachi gets real serious


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## Phenomenon (Feb 15, 2019)

Itachi wins.

Can't evade Amaterasu, Can't break Tsukuyomi if he manages to catch him through Bunshin feinting, Can't do anything to breach Susanoo without getting sealed eventually.

Itachi>Jiraiya

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## Cad Bane (Feb 15, 2019)

Itachi wins. Jiraiya would probably stand a better chance than Minato though because of Frog Song.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> Itachi wins. Jiraiya would probably stand a better chance than Minato though because of Frog Song.



I really don't understand this opinion. Minato actually has a very good chance of winning. Jiraiya doesn't considering his best option is Frog Song which requires fleeing the battlefield which someone as fast as Itachi with an attack that V2 Raikage could barely dodge isn't going to allow this to happen.


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## Cad Bane (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I really don't understand this opinion. Minato actually has a very good chance of winning. Jiraiya doesn't considering his best option is Frog Song which requires fleeing the battlefield which someone as fast as Itachi with an attack that V2 Raikage could barely dodge isn't going to allow this to happen.


Toad summons can buy him time for that.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

DoctorDoom6789 said:


> Toad summons can buy him time for that.



Not really. They'd be defeated quite swiftly with genjutsu or Susanoo.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 15, 2019)

Voted for Itachi, but Jiraiya starting in Sage Mode with full knowledge does skew things heavily in his favour.


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## Ghost Of The Uchiha (Feb 15, 2019)

Itachi is clearly superior for me;

-- V3 with Yata walls all Jman's higher leveled attacks (COR and the likes)

-- Jman's elemental attacks get blocked by the ribcage which doesn't strain his eyes much

-- Susanoo blades which strike much faster than the user himself can tag Jman and turn him to paste if used with a higher leveled version

-- Amaterasu which nearly tagged  V2 A4 who was using shunshin incinerates him

-- in close quarters Itachi could fight on par with KCM Naruto and he blitzed Base Bee so he should have the advantage over Jiraiya, he also landed genjutsu on far faster people like reflecting the crow on kcm Naruto thus Tsukuyomi should be a viable path of victory here as well.


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## JayK (Feb 15, 2019)

Amaterasu, Totsuka (which can also take care of toads) and Tsukuyomi are all viable oneshot options while Jiraiya's only hope is Frog Song which he won't get off to begin with considering how hard pressed he's going to be against Itachi from the get go (and I am not even sure if it works at all considering Itachi is known to us as THE Genjutsu user).

Early Part 1 *statements* hold literally 0 value too as Kishi himself had no clue back then where he intended to go with the story. Additionally Sick Itachi literally oneshotted Orochimaru. What makes anyone believe that someone who is arguably weaker than Orochimaru got a realistic chance at beating Itachi?


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

itachi is gonna get overwhelmed and killed by the SM jutsu once Jiraiya gets real serious

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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

@Shazam

Shamelessly jacked my idea 

Although your stips are different than what Id have used so the results of this thread wont be accounted for when/if I do this thread in my format.

Itachi wins btw

Jiraiya gets blitzed by Amaterasu and cant do shit to Susanoo

Every one of Jiraiyas summons are enslaved via Genjutsu, if Jman isnt careful, he may find himself getting tounge fucked in the ear canal by a Genjutsud Ma tbh

Intel straight up doesnt matter when everything you KNOW about your opponent is that...

"Oh shit he fucks me with that"

"Oh damn he fucks me with that too"

"Damn thats WAY too fast for me"

"Literally cant break that no matter how hard I try"


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 15, 2019)

There's no way that Itachi is beating Jiraiya under these conditions no matter if he's healthy or not. Normally though, I see them as more or less equal like they were portrayed.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> equal like they were portrayed.


 



Itachi

>Guts Jiraiyas peer if not superior at age 13
> Gets said peer if not superior to still cuck to him a decade later
> Effortlessly guts said peer if not superior a second time while blind and dying of cancer
> "equals"

Kay

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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Itachi
> 
> >Guts Jiraiyas peer if not superior at age 13
> > Gets said peer if not superior to still cuck to him a decade later
> ...


Trash arguments as always... how about you focus on direct comparisons between Jiraiya and Itachi instead of using stupid A > B > C logic? When we compare them directly we have:

Itachi stating they're equal back in P1 (ib4 "Itachi is a liar! He lied about only Jiraiya's strength but no one else's!").
Jiraiya has SM and Itachi has MS, two power-ups that made Naruto and Sasuke (their successors) equal.
The theme of SM users either being portrayed as stronger than or at the very least equal to MS users on the same level as them.
Jiraiya having SM sensing which counters Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (ib4 "Kabuto didn't sense it so Jiraiya can't!" Even though it was never directed at Kabuto to begin with and his sensing is good enough to fight completely blind but can't detect Amaterasu )


Jiraiya having sound-based jutsu (Frog Call & Frog Song) that we know shuts down and bypasses Susanoo and affects MS users.
But nah, let's focus on some dumb arguments that revolve around Orochimaru's "indisputable" superior portrayal over Jiraiya. Even though in P2 it was established that Orochimaru is too weak to use SM while Jiraiya can (ib4 another piss poor argument about how Jiraiya's SM not being perfectly balanced is just as bad as Orochimaru not being able to use it at all).

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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Not to be a dick...But Im beginning to realize that Jiraiya fans lowkey dont know what a "bigger number" is 


Regarding Jiraiya vs Itachi? They take one statement of a draw if the two had fought WAY back in part 1 thats questioned by Kisame AND made suspect when we learn of Itachis double agent story, over several events placing Itachi ABOVE Orochimaru who is ABOVE Jiraiya in a  theme consistent with THE REST OF THE MANGA
Regarding Jiraiya vs Pain? They take one statement of Pain saying jiraiya MIGHT be capable of beating him with knowledge over the DOZNES of pieces of evidence placing Naruto above Jiraiya, placing Narutos situation above Jiraiyas, and placing Pain at a disadvantage against Naruto and Pain STILL won 
Its either they cant recognise the bigger number...Or they just using selective reasoning

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## Serene Grace (Feb 15, 2019)

Inb4 shit storm

In stips like this I can see Jiraiya slipping away a win, under normal circumstances it can go either way


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Regarding Jiraiya vs Itachi? They take one statement of a draw if the two had fought WAY back in part 1 thats questioned by Kisame AND made suspect when we learn of Itachis double agent story, over several events placing Itachi ABOVE Orochimaru who is ABOVE Jiraiya in a theme consistent with THE REST OF THE MANGA


We have seen itachi being a bitch against SM. Itachi's fans are just salty... 

we have seen proven facts
Sound moves > Susanoo (which Jman has Frog Call & Frog Song) 
underground attack > Susanoo ( Which Jman has, via the swamp) 
Sensing abilities dodging  Uchiha fodders attacks 

U_U


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

Blu-ray said:


> Voted for Itachi, but Jiraiya starting in Sage Mode with full knowledge does skew things heavily in his favour.



It's the only way he has a chance, I've said it from the beginning. Itachi will always win under neutral circumstances because he has a quicker means to his stronger techs.

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## hbcaptain (Feb 15, 2019)

Itachi is a tier above Jiraya.

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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Itachi is a tier above Jiraya.



U_U

Originally Posted by Ch144, p8
Kisame:
「アナタならどうにかこうにかやれる相手でも私じゃあ 分かりませんよ…」
「次元が違う」
"You might be able to somehow defeat him, but me, well I don't know..."
"Our levels are too far apart"

Itachi:
「ああ…やり合えは二人共殺されるか良くて相打ちというところ」
「…たとえ人数を増やしたとしても変わらないだろう」
"Yeah... If we fought him, we might both be killed. If it goes well, we might take him with us."
"Even if the number of people were to increase, this probably wouldn't change"

Kisame
「ラーメン屋で やっと見付けたはいいが…お守りが あの゛伝説の三忍゛とは」
「彼が相手では゛木ノ葉のうちは一族゛も゛霧の忍刀七人衆゛の名もかすんでしまう」
"It was good we finally found them by the ramen store, but... his guardian is of those 'Legendary Three Ninja' "
"He, as an opponent, makes 'Konoha's Uchiha clan' and the 'Seven Shinobi Swordmen of the Mist' seem like nothing."

Itachi:
「ああ…しかし……」
「どんな強者にも弱点というのがあるものだ……」
"Yes... However......"
"No matter how strong a person is, he is bound to have a weakness..."


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Not to be a dick...But Im beginning to realize that Jiraiya fans lowkey dont know what a "bigger number" is
> 
> 
> Regarding Jiraiya vs Itachi? They take one statement of a draw if the two had fought WAY back in part 1 thats questioned by Kisame AND made suspect when we learn of Itachis double agent story, over several events placing Itachi ABOVE Orochimaru who is ABOVE Jiraiya in a  theme consistent with THE REST OF THE MANGA
> ...



It's as if the manga didn't go on from part 1.

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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> It's as if the manga didn't go on from part 1.


it did. But itachi's fans are as blind as itachi. 




-------



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*Not so much, but whatever *



------------------

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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

If it's one thing I love about Hussain he's always packing the scans lmao.


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## Zero890 (Feb 15, 2019)

Jman wins, Itachi agrees with me.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Isaiah is one salty triggered little girl right now 

Twisted panties dont change the polls son

Nor do they change manga feats or statements 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Trash arguments as always


Says the kid blatantly arguing with headcanon over author intent and manga statements and feats 


Isaiah13000 said:


> how about you focus on direct comparisons between Jiraiya and Itachi


Kay

Sure why not

Still gonna embarrass you either way


Isaiah13000 said:


> instead of using stupid A > B > C logic


Its called portrayal actually

You used a portrayal based argument, So I used one in turn to shit down your neck with it to prove that you dont have a point there

You dont like that you were proven wrong, and now your defaulting to a more headcanon based feat "analysis" that you NORMALLy put BENEATH a portryala analysis

Cuz youre flip flopping to save face for Jiraiya

Anywho, lets get into it



Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi stating they're equal back in P1


Which is questioned IMMEDIATELY by Kisame after watching them fight


Isaiah13000 said:


> (ib4 "Itachi is a liar! He lied about only Jiraiya's strength but no one else's!")


Have your salty "inb4" 

Kisame still doesnt think Itachi would have lost had they continued to fight when beforehand he DID WAYYY back in Part 1

Kisames analysis after gaining MORE INFORMATION on Jiraiyas ability, was completely different of it beforehand

Still makes the statement questionable at best

And thats ignoring matchup 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya has SM and Itachi has MS, two power-ups that made Naruto and Sasuke (their successors) equal.


Just gonna CASUALLY omit the fact Jiraiya NEVER MASTERED that power whereas Naruto, Sasuke and Itachi all DID

So which is it genius 

Is it SM = MS?

Or is it unmastered SM = Mastered SM = MS 

Go on tell us 


Isaiah13000 said:


> The theme of SM users either being portrayed as stronger than or at the very least equal to MS users on the same level as them.


Straight up untrue

Naruto and Sasuke are the only Sages and MS users portrayed anywhere near the same level

BASE Hashi exceeded fucking *E*MS Madaras capabilities

BASE Minato exceeded MS Obitos

BASE Tobirama beat MS Izuna

Not a point for SM...Its a point for FTG and Mokuton being > MS and EMS respectively



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya having SM sensing


Where 

Fucking where 

Go find me that panel of an imperfect Sage sensing ANYTHING EVER and Ill concede

Promise


Isaiah13000 said:


> which counters Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu


No it doesnt 


Isaiah13000 said:


> (ib4 "Kabuto didn't sense it so Jiraiya can't!"


Yeah youre nopt getting away with this one

Kabuto is a better Sage than Jiraiya OR Ma OR Pa and he straight up didnt sense Amaterasu despite it being used MULTIPLE TIMES against him

So this argument can eat shit


Isaiah13000 said:


> Even though it was never directed at Kabuto to begin with


WHat the fuck does that matter 

What a struggle ass argument

Kiddo...SM sensors have a range that covers AT BARE FUCKING MINUMUM an ENTIRE HIDDEN VILLAGE

And youre gonna sit there and suggest that because Amaterasu "wasnt directed" at Kabuto, THATS why he couldnt sense it?

What the fuck 

I almost coughed up my spleen 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya having sound-based jutsu


Which needs prep


Isaiah13000 said:


> *Frog Call* & Frog Song) that we know shuts down and bypasses Susanoo and affects MS users.


Frog call doesnt

Frog call lasts legit 3 seconds and would simply make the MS users stand still with their Susanoo still activated...Doesnt disrupt their ability to control chakra liek White Rage is SPECIFICALLY stated to do

Frog song would as its not just sound paralytic but is also hypnotic and Genjutsu does actively disturb chakra, but it needs prep


Isaiah13000 said:


> nah, let's focus on some dumb arguments


Well I mean I wasnt gonna say thats what you did outright...

But it kinda is yeah I agree 


Isaiah13000 said:


> revolve around Orochimaru's "indisputable" superior portrayal over Jiraiya


Orochimarus PORTRAYAL above Jiraiya IS indisputable kiddo

Its the FEATS where they differ

That was my entire fucking point

Jiraiya and Itachi are (literally ONCE) portaryed ona  similar level, but Itachis FEATS far exceed Jiraiyas

Tho I can see it effectively whoosed you...Cant say Im surprised


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> We have seen itachi being a bitch against SM


No weve seen Itachi fight a BETTER SAGE than Jiraiya that he WASNT ALLOWED TO KILL

And Itachi does beat him in the end 

Again...This stupid headcanon that each Sage is somehow equal or something

Then again youre the same delusional child who actually thinks Jiraiya > Kabuto...Something other Jiraiya fanatics dont even buy...

So im not surprised youre using this trash logic


Hussain said:


> underground attack > Susanoo


Precog > underground attack

Also

Must be why Meis Lava doesnt enter it even when Susanoo is entirely submerged

YN does literally zero damage ;mjlol

Even if Itachi doesnt see it coming and gets tagged by it, he still can attack Jiraiya while immobile with Amaterasu or Genjutsu and after killing Jiraiya or forcing him to release the tech, YN would become undone


Hussain said:


> Sound moves > Susanoo


No

KABUTOS sound based attack did 

And even then not really as Itachi does use Susanoo anyway

Jiraiyas sound based genjutsu is also prep heavy...And his other one doesnt disrupt chakra flow like White Rage does...

Meaning yeah Itachis Susanoo stands still, but its still THERE...Itachi could also still use Amaterasu or Genjutsu while paralyzed for the 3 ENTIRE SECONDS hes gonna be paralyzed


Hussain said:


> Sensing abilities dodging Uchiha fodders attacks


Tell that to Kabuto whos bette rthan jiriaya in actually every way and didnt sense it 


Hussain said:


> Itachi's fans are just salty


Says teh kid making stuff up using false equivalence and calling it "proven facts" 


Hussain said:


> we have seen proven facts


This is just adorable


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## JayK (Feb 15, 2019)

@WorldsStrongest maybe nice to add would be the fact that Jiraiya got shit on by Asura Path jumping on him from below the water without realising it. There is just no way that would've happened if anyone of them had SM sensing. Saying Jiraiya has it when he's never shown to have it is fanfic.


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## Zero890 (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Orochimarus PORTRAYAL above Jiraiya IS indisputable kiddo



No, that is not indisputable, in fact it is wrong. When the Sage Mode appeared Jman clearly got a much better potrayal. If you want to make comparisons, Orochimaru couldn't even face Itachi while Jman literally faced his boss in his territory and without an arm.

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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Orochimarus PORTRAYAL above Jiraiya IS indisputable kiddo


Oro is also stronger than itachi tho...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No weve seen Itachi fight a BETTER SAGE than Jiraiya that he WASNT ALLOWED TO KILL
> 
> And Itachi does beat him in the end
> 
> ...



Trash logic. 

Kabuto trashed itachi and he only survived because ET cannot be killed.







WorldsStrongest said:


> Precog > underground attack
> 
> Also
> 
> ...



- Had it been so, Gaara wouldn't have caught Asspulldara. So, no, it's not.  
Asspulldara did not see Onoki raising the ground under him coming either. 

YN is not an underground attack tho. 
and Asspulldara was not standing, he was falling on his back, and Susanoo cover that area. 

- Amaterasu is a clone-range jutsu. 
Also, Jman can dodge it thanks to sensing
he can get rid of his clothes
and he can seal it. 
and can use superstition jutsu. 

YN sink the target, itachi won't be seeing Jman from under the ground in the first place. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> KABUTOS sound based attack did
> 
> ...



Frog song is stronger than Kabuto's sound move. 

and frog call does paralyze the target as we have seen. if you will start saying dumb shit as "Well, it did not paralyze ITACHI"
then bring us feat of Amaterasu burning JIRAIYA  


- prep heavy, and yet he did against Pain who is stronger than itachi.  



WorldsStrongest said:


> Tell that to Kabuto whos bette rthan jiriaya in actually every way and didnt sense it



I don't know what you are trying to say here tbh...


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Oro is also stronger than itachi tho...


No 

Orochimaru + 3 people stronger than Orochimaru OR ITACHI are stronger than Itachi 

Cute argument tho



Zero890 said:


> No, that is not indisputable, in fact it is wrong.


No its really not


Zero890 said:


> When the Sage Mode appeared Jman clearly got a much better potrayal


No he really didn’t 

Pain literally brought them all to the same level again by saying “each Sannin has unique and powerful abilities” 

And SM or not Jiraiya literally cannot kill Orochimaru


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> Orochimaru + 3 people stronger than Orochimaru OR ITACHI are stronger than Itachi
> 
> Cute argument tho


the 4 Hokage is his jutsu, and he can summon them and use them if he wants. 
which means, at full power, he IS stronger than itachi. whether you like it or not, it is what it is...


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the 4 Hokage is his jutsu, and he can summon them and use them if he wants.


He cant use Hashirama 

Its hella unlikely he can make Minato do whatever he wants either as Minato is Hashis peer 

We also dont know if he can force Tobirama to do anything he doesn’t want to we just know he can paralyze him 





Hussain said:


> which means, at full power, he IS stronger than itachi. whether you like it or not, it is what it is...


No im pretty sure what I said earlier still holds

Oro with Demi God tier Backup > Itachi > Oro

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Feb 15, 2019)

Voted for Itachi. Overall they are are comparable but I think Itachi would win high diff in a fight.
-Itachi has been constantly schooling Jiraya’s peer aka Orochimaru. Orochi said he was weaker than Itachi even in Part 1, when he had Edo Kage, so there is quite a gap
-Itachi can blink and access his MS Jutsu with little effort. Jiraya needs more time to compete with Itachi. This is why under neutral circumstances Itachi’d win even more comfortably
-Even when in SM, Jiraya’s best bet to beat him is Frog Song. Other than that: Itachi can Tsukuyomi Jiraya, or use a Genjutsu on one of the two toads to make them break SM. Jiraya’s statements and DB score imply he hasn’t got much knowledge about Genjutsu, and cannot fight effect lay without looking at Itachi’s eyes, as someone like Gai would do for instance.
-Jiraya doesn’t have the physical strength or the destructive power to Braak Susanoo. He isn’t also much of a speedster, so the chances he’s going to get impaled by Totsuka are high
-Amaterasu can be used to tag one of the toads and interrupt SM (likely permanently). Or it can be used directly on Jiraya. 
-Not gonna discuss about hype because Itachi has been hyped by everyone in that manga from Obito to Kabuto and Jiraya would end up being humiliated.
To sum up: Itachi has 3 techs to put Jiraya down or out of SM, while SM has 1. Furthermore, Itachi’s techs only a blink to work, Jiraya’s needs a little more effort

Itachi wins more times than not

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No its really not



Yes its wrong. Feats and portrayal goes to SM Jman.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No he really didn’t
> 
> Pain literally brought them all to the same level again by saying “each Sannin has unique and powerful abilities”



And Pain himself claims that Jiraiya could defeat him, whether you believe it is false or not is a canonical statement that is far from Oro's portrayal (being Itachi's bitch).



WorldsStrongest said:


> And SM or not Jiraiya literally cannot kill Orochimaru



Nope, he can


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Zero890 said:


> Yes its wrong.





Zero890 said:


> Feats and portrayal goes to SM Jman.


Nope

Just feats

Not portrayal

Really nice to see Jiraiya fans blatantly flip flopping all over themselves tho

Usually all you guys do is “portrayal gg” yet here you all are arguing against it


Zero890 said:


> And Pain himself claims that Jiraiya could defeat him


And Jiraiya himself disagrees

And Naruto disagrees

And Pain later disagrees

And KN6 disagrees

Again, a Jiraiya fan who doesn’t know what a bigger number is


Zero890 said:


> whether you believe it is false or not is a canonical statement that is far from Oro's portrayal (being Itachi's bitch).


Orochimaru got praised by Hashirama if we are going ths route 

Youre still short bro 

Not even TOUCHING on the fact that your boy @Hussain is in here arguing that ET counts as Oros own feats and portrayal

And if you believe that than Jiraiya is FUCKED 


Zero890 said:


> Nope, he can


With what

With fucking what genius 

Oro regens anything and everything Jiraiya can do 10 times over

SM or not


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## Serene Grace (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Jiraiya gets blitzed by Amaterasu


I disagree. With full knowledge the build up of Amaterasu can be anticipated via sage mode sensing. Even if you don't believe Jiraiya can sense, Ma sensed on panel and Pa is equal to her in mastery so they will be able to sense it.

Once its sensed, they can blind Itachi with a dust cloud or Jiraiya could block it with a large rasengan then deform it before it spreads to him.



WorldsStrongest said:


> cant do shit to Susanoo


He can paralyze it with frog call, then sink it with Yomi Numa



WorldsStrongest said:


> Every one of Jiraiyas summons are enslaved via Genjutsu, if Jman isnt careful, he may find himself getting tounge fucked in the ear canal by a Genjutsud Ma tbh


They have full knowledge, they wouldn't mindlessly look in Itachi's eyes. Not to mention stuff like boss summoning sized dust clouds, SM sensing and multiple bodies on the floor makes genjutsu gg



WorldsStrongest said:


> Oro regens anything and everything Jiraiya can do 10 times over


Oro can only regen to what he can tank. COR plows through him, frog song traps him, etc

@JayK you fucked up when you missed the panel of Ma recognizing Pein through the dust via sensing their chakra signatures 

All 3 of them can sense, you saying they can't and especially ma/pa makes me question your knowledge of the manga


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He cant use Hashirama
> 
> Its hella unlikely he can make Minato do whatever he wants either as Minato is Hashis peer
> 
> We also dont know if he can force Tobirama to do anything he doesn’t want to we just know he can paralyze him



He can.
Oro said Hashi could break free IF he let his guard down. Furthermore, that was WITHOUT using Kunais to suppress their personalities.
Oro could use the Kunais in their heads and does not go through this...  

I don't know about Minato since Kurama is not affected by ET control, and he might challenge Oro's control. 
But who knows... 

Anyway, with the Kunais his control will be much stronger...

and he does not need all 4 Hokages to destroy itachi anyway. He can summon 1 and that will be enough. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> No im pretty sure what I said earlier still holds
> 
> Oro with Demi God tier Backup > Itachi > Oro




does not matter. As I said, ET is his jutsu. Which means, he is stronger than itachi.


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## Zero890 (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nope
> 
> Just feats
> 
> ...



Portrayal GG in this case too. Jman's portrayal is better.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And Jiraiya himself disagrees
> 
> And Naruto disagrees
> 
> ...



Pain agrees because he said it. And it shows that even in bad conditions Jman is still able to defend himself against the six Paths.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Orochimaru got praised by Hashirama if we are going ths route
> 
> Youre still short bro
> 
> ...



Yeah, war arc Oro has better portrayal. And as @Hussain says ET is the Oro's power and with that he can humillate Itachi and Jiraiya at the same time. Before that he was the Itachi's bitch far from what Jiraiya was portrayed.



WorldsStrongest said:


> With what
> 
> With fucking what genius
> 
> ...



COR says hello


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I disagree


Sincerely unsurprised nor do I care


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> With full knowledge the build up of Amaterasu can be anticipated via sage mode sensing


Kabuto says no to all of this


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Even if you don't believe Jiraiya can sense, Ma sensed on panel


Kabuto still says no

And even if you think Ma would detect it, theyd still need to tell Jiraiya whats coming, hed still need to process what to do, then PHYSICALLY DO IT all fast enough to shame V2 A...So no to all of this

Its not just about Jiraiyas inability, the flow of information and the simple fact better sages than any of them failed


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> He can paralyze it with frog call,


And do no damage

Itachi can still retaliate while paralyzed too


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> then sink it with Yomi Numa


And do no damage

Itachi can still retaliate while trapped as well


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> They have full knowledge,


So did Orochimaru, Naruto, Deidara, C, Danzo, Killer Bee, Kurama and any other Biju ever

All of em still got caught


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Oro can only regen to what he can tank.


And nothing Odama has ever done suggests he cant tank it

Oro took a CES hit from Tsunade without any need to regen...He also walked off a V2 TBB explosion AND laughed off being cut in half


The Death & The Strawberry said:


> frog song traps him


And does no damage


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Isaiah is one salty triggered little girl right now
> 
> Twisted panties dont change the polls son
> 
> Nor do they change manga feats or statements


 Not really, I was just stating basic facts lmao.



> Says the kid blatantly arguing with headcanon over author intent and manga statements and feats
> 
> Kay
> 
> ...


 Can you tell me when exactly I did this in this thread? I used both hype and feats in conjunction with each other in my posts, I never put feats above hype in my posts.


> Which is questioned IMMEDIATELY by Kisame after watching them fight
> 
> Have your salty "inb4"
> 
> ...


 No it wasn't, what Kisame said afterwards only reinforces what was said previously. He believed that Itachi could take on Jiraiya, so he questioned the retreat. Which aligns with Itachi saying a fight between them would end in a draw.


> Just gonna CASUALLY omit the fact Jiraiya NEVER MASTERED that power whereas Naruto, Sasuke and Itachi all DID
> 
> So which is it genius
> 
> ...


 Typical response... I don't know how many times I have to say this but whatever. This enormous distinction that you and others keep making between Jiraiya's SM and Naruto's SM is baseless and stupid. Yes Naruto's is superior but he does not have a whole other level of SM, the only difference is his is perfectly balanced and Jiraiya's isn't. 

For all intents and purposes based on the true definition of a Sage and Perfect Sage (according to Kabuto), Jiraiya is a Perfect Sage because he can use SM. So really it's more like "SM (Unbalanced)" and "SM (Balanced)" but the unbalanced version still gives all of the same power-ups that the balanced version does, just to a lesser extent. So Jiraiya has mastered SM itself, his inability to balance the energies doesn't mean his is "unmastered": Fukasaku even said Jiraiya was one of the best at it. These type of arguments are just used to try to exclude Jiraiya from parallels and portrayal that he has to make him out to be weaker than he actually is.


> Go on tell us
> 
> Straight up untrue
> 
> ...



Untrue, SM Hashirama and EMS Madara fought evenly off-panel and Hashirama only won with a slight edge.
Not including Minato or Tobirama since they don't use or have SM.
My main point is SM Hashirama > EMS Madara, SM Naruto = MS Sasuke, SM Kabuto > MS Itachi & EMS Sasuke (Kabuto Fight), and by the end of the manga SPSM Naruto > Rinnegan Sasuke was established too. So really those with some form of SM are always either equal to or stronger than their dojutsu counterparts.


> Where
> 
> Fucking where
> 
> ...


 SM didn't even have sensory perception in general when it was introduced and Kishimoto's idea of how effective sensing was at the time was different compared to the War Arc. This can be proven by Fukasaku nor Shima being stated or showing any form of SM sensing in the fight against Pain with Jiraiya, hell, Shima had to use her tongue to detect and attack the chameleon. They also didn't detect the other incoming Pains that snuck up on them.  

Additionally, Jiraiya stated that even if the Pains could sense they wouldn't be able to fight as effectively as they did. Jiraiya wouldn't say this if he or Fukasaku and Shima had SM sensing that has been shown to be able to allow you to fight blind later on. This means that SM didn't have any sensory powers at the time and sensing in general wasn't that strong yet. DB3 also doesn't mention anything whatsoever about sensing in Fukasaku, Shima, or Jiraiya's case.



> No it doesnt


 Nagato, who has ordinary sensing could detect Amaterasu and Kabuto could fight blind to avoid Tsukuyomi.


> Yeah youre nopt getting away with this one
> 
> Kabuto is a better Sage than Jiraiya OR Ma OR Pa and he straight up didnt sense Amaterasu despite it being used MULTIPLE TIMES against him
> 
> So this argument can eat shit


 Kabuto is stronger than they are overall, but that doesn't mean that his sensory powers are any better than theirs (we don't even know if Kabuto is balanced or unbalanced). Also, when was Amaterasu ever directed at Kabuto?



> WHat the fuck does that matter
> 
> What a struggle ass argument
> 
> ...


Kabuto not saying or being shown that he could sense Amaterasu doesn't mean he can't. There was no reason for that to happen since it was never aimed at him.


> Which needs prep
> 
> Frog call doesnt
> 
> ...


 What the fuck? Why do you think White Rage disrupted their ability to control chakra?! Because they were paralyzed by the powerful sound waves resonating through their bodies! Frog Call literally does the same thing minus the blinding effect that White Rage has. It lasting for only a few seconds is all that is needed for Jiraiya to exploit that opening and kill Itachi anyway.


> Well I mean I wasnt gonna say thats what you did outright...
> 
> But it kinda is yeah I agree
> 
> ...


 Hype and feats *both* make-up a character's overall portrayal and standing in the series. Going based on that, Jiraiya's overall portrayal above Orochimaru's is superior. Feats and portrayal are not two different things, it's so odd how people think that, what a character does and what is said about them both factor into how they are depicted in the series which is the same as portrayal. Itachi's feats far exceeding Jiraiya's is also pretty subjective, as I strongly disagree with that.


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

Oh my a what? 1v4 debate, I wonder who will come out victorious lads.. things are very interesting


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## Azula (Feb 15, 2019)

MS by itself is also not a "mastered" power because the user is half dead using it. 

MS+Hashirama cells and MS+MS=EMS and MS+Rikudo chakra are the stable/mastered powers, apart from their difference in strength levels of course.

And Jiraiya is close to perfection in his own skillset. Not perfect but close. His position is better than Itachi this way.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> U_U
> 
> Originally Posted by Ch144, p8
> Kisame:
> ...


Konoha spy/Akatsuki fooler Itachi talking to a loyal Akatsuki member about Jiraya and how they can't capture the Kyubi's Jin with him being there.
Seems legit.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> Konoha spy/Akatsuki fooler Itachi talking to a loyal Akatsuki member about Jiraya and how they can't capture the Kyubi's Jin with him being there.
> Seems legit.



Jiraiya is also a spy. He was actually the one who made itachi escape in the hotel. 


a frog mouth that eats fire and has never been escaped before, and now a fire burn it down and itachi escapes 

sounds legit.


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## Grinningfox (Feb 15, 2019)

Voted Itachi

I think Itachi > = Jiraiya


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

Welp at least itachi didn't get dogged in this poll. When will @Shazam decide that enough is enough though is the question I mean with it currently being  26 to 8 I don't think a fourth quarter comeback is in making


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## Azula (Feb 15, 2019)

Also using Orochimaru as a middle guy is desperate. Orochimaru gets beat by Jiraiya as well.

Hard worker>Born Genius, this theme is literally hammered in our heads. Genius character is hyped in his early life, has the initial lead, but gets surpassed because hard work and perseverance and all that jazz.

Orochimaru, poor guy, literally got kicked out of the Sage training and had to make do with a poor man's version with Juugo's DNA. While the one supposedly inferior to him went on the actually become a Sage. Sage Power is the highest power of both Toad and Snake summons. 

The Sannins have their character intimately tied to their respective animal summon. In such a case not being able to achieve the highest power of their summons sets Orochimaru back.

Jiraiya>Orochimaru
Itachi>=Orochimaru

Orochimaru with Edo Hokages>Both


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## Omote (Feb 15, 2019)

The Sannin cult is smaller than I thought

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya is also a spy. He was actually the one who made itachi escape in the hotel.
> 
> 
> a frog mouth that eats fire and has never been escaped before, and now a fire burn it down and itachi escapes
> ...


The Difference is that Jiraya is Konoha spy who works for Konoha and not fooling anyone when up against criminal organizations like Akatsuki whilst Itachi is Konoha spy who both works for and fools the Akatsuki.

He never intended to capture Naruto as mentionned in the Databook and hinted in the manga.


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> The Sannin cult is smaller than I thought



Nah this just jiraiya half my guy...


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

hbcaptain said:


> The Difference is that Jiraya is Konoha spy who works for Konoha and not fooling anyone when up against criminal organizations like Akatsuki whilst Itachi is Konoha spy who both works for and fools the Akatsuki.
> 
> He never intended to capture Naruto as mentionned in the Databook and hinted in the manga.



How did he fool the Akatsuki when he helped them get the Bijuus and seal them?
if anything, he was fooling Konoha because he did nothing for the village.  


if you can tell us how did Konoha benefit from itachi with anything please do 





> He never intended to capture Naruto as mentionned in the Databook and hinted in the manga.



then why did he get Jiriaya away from Naruto? 


what would have happened had Jiraiya not come back in your opinion?


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2019)

Healthy Itachi > Jiraiya >= Sick Itachi


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Healthy Itachi > Jiraiya >= Sick Itachi


how would Prime Jiraiya be compared to healthy itachi?

(I am assuming that you are referring to healthy itachi > old Jiraiya )


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## Turrin (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> how would Prime Jiraiya be compared to healthy itachi?
> 
> (I am assuming that you are referring to healthy itachi > old Jiraiya )


Prime Jiraiya is the same Jiraiya we saw in the manga


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Prime Jiraiya is the same Jiraiya we saw in the manga


Jiraiya we saw is 54 something, which means he is "old" Jiraiya, no?  

But what's the difference between "sick" and "healthy" itachi btw? 
and can you back your position with manga panels? U_U 

like can you explain to us how will Jiriaya be able to deal with "sick" itachi's jutsu
but he won't be able to deal with "healthy" itachi's jutsu even though they are the exact same jutsu?


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## JayK (Feb 15, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> you fucked up when you missed the panel of Ma recognizing Pein through the dust via sensing their chakra signatures
> 
> All 3 of them can sense, you saying they can't and especially ma/pa makes me question your knowledge of the manga


That's nice I guess? 
So how does that change the fact that none of them were able to sense Asura Path plugging right into their faces?


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## BlackHeartedImp (Feb 15, 2019)

Itachi due to Jiraiya's self-disclosed bad genjutsu defense and no way to dodge his OHKOs consistently.  The frogs would be able to snap him out of it, but with them sitting right on his shoulders, they're prime targets for amaterasu to spawn on, then all of them die since Jiraiya wasn't even familiar with amaterasu to begin with (he could only deduce that it was a fire style, which is an observation anyone could have made imo).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Jiraiya we saw is 54 something, which means he is "old" Jiraiya, no?
> 
> But what's the difference between "sick" and "healthy" itachi btw?
> and can you back your position with manga panels? U_U
> ...


I know you are just being bitchy as usual for the sake of being bitchy, but I’m still replying to you since I think a serious answer may be useful to clear your doubts. “Healthy” Itachi is likely part 1 Itachi, sick Itachi is part 2/Sasuke Fight Itachi. You with me now? Good (hopefully). These two “Itachi’s” have vastly different performances. For instance, part 1 Itachi was able to use Tsukuyomi twice, and he even used Amaterasu right after the second one. And after all this, all he said is that he needed some rest. Now, in Part 2 Itachi used a TSukuyomi on Sasuke, and after using it he was panting, bleeding and kneeling to the floor. Clearly in Part 2 using Tsukuyomi needed much effort by Itachi than in Part 1, when Itachi could even afford to waste one on Sasuke just for the lulz. Moreover, during the Sasuke fight we have Zetsu’s commentary on how Itachi was performing worse than usual, as further evidence of what we can already deduce on our own. Add to this that we later know by Obito that the Uchiha was sick with some deadly disease which was not curable, so it’s not your random flu, so it is logical to assume that a terminally ill Itachi would overall have worse stats than in Part 1. So we know that Healthy Itachi has better stamina (much better stamina) and likely better reflexes (as he was unable to dodge a shuriken). Healthy Itachi has also better sight, as Sick Itachi was fighting almost blind, making his reaction overall much better. So Healthy Itachi will be able to use more MS Jutsu, for a longer period of time, and also will be more reflexive. Whether the disease affected his speed too is debatable: Healthy Itachi dodges a Blind side from Bee, while Sick Ita couldn’t dodge a blindside from Hebi’s shuriken. Prime Jiraya doesn’t exist for the following reasons:
1) Never was it implied or said that Jiraya as a young man was much stronger than sick (as instead we know about Itachi). Being old (if 54 can be defined as old for a ninja) doesn’t automatically mean he got weaker, as Onoki reached his prime during the WA, and even the likes of A3/Gengetsu didn’t exactly look young, but still died in their primes
2) The only feats from young Jiraya have him lose against Hanzo with Tsunade’s and Orochi’s support. We also have that flashback where he was wounded and Tsunade/Orochi were arguing over his body while being sorrounded by fodder. Few evidences we have indicate he grew more powerful compared to his younger years.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> “Healthy” Itachi is likely part 1 Itachi


the comparison was made between Jman and part 1 itachi. From where you people made it so it was between
Jman and "sick" itachi? 



Gianfi said:


> Add to this that we later know by Obito that the Uchiha was sick with some deadly disease which was not curable


Obito said a lot of lies/wrong stuff. For example
1- he claimed Kurama was a natural disaster
2- his story on Haguromo was all wrong
3- he claimed he is Asspulldara and the owner of the Rinnegan 
4- eyes who have Susanoo is rare 
5- Izanagi require both Senju & uchiha power 

...etc

itachi was coughing blood because of Susanoo as we have seen with Sasuke. Something Obito wouldn't know about
since A) he has never seen the Susanoo before B) he never "felt" what Susanoo does to the user. 

Obito was likely making shit up in that regard to convince Sasuke. Unless we are going to assume Sasuke was also "sick Sasuke"
because of the pain, he felt when he was using Susanoo and the blood he was coughing...


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## Shazam (Feb 15, 2019)

Omote said:


> The Sannin cult is smaller than I thought



Because there never has been a cult. Just something thought up by ass-hurt uchiha fans honestly. Those people get upset even when I suggest that Itachi and Jman are virtual equals, but then have the audacity to say Itachi goes 50/50 with BM Minato, Nagato and beats Obito etc

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

31 to 8.... unfortunate for jiraiya fans but it is what it is. Numbers don't lie

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shazam (Feb 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> 31 to 8.... unfortunate for jiraiya fans but it is what it is. Numbers don't lie



Yeah except for the 6 saying they are equal.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Yeah except for the 6 saying they are equal.



You honestly shouldn't given a "=" option, and left it up to ultimatum. Everyone is gonna side one way or another.


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## BlackHeartedImp (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the comparison was made between Jman and part 1 itachi. From where you people made it so it was between
> Jman and "sick" itachi?
> 
> 
> ...


Itachi was pretty clearly sick. Obito has lied about a lot of stuff, but that's not grounds to discount literally anything he says. Doubt is definitely warranted, but there's actual evidence that supports Itachi being ill anyway. He was most definitely telling the truth about how much Itachi loved Sasuke, and how he was a double agent.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

BlackHeartedImp said:


> Itachi was pretty clearly sick.


can you show us an example? 
I honestly can't remember any example of itachi showing any sign of illness throughout the series. 

and no one even mentioned it either besides that time IIRC.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Pretty cute how Hussain is now vying that Itachi _wasn't actually_ sick because Obito lied about some stuff, despite being one of the remaining morons few clinging on to a part one statement regarding Jiraiya from another known liar.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

And yes, Zetsu cleary alludes to something being "off" with Itachi, regarding his speed and stamina. And no, he's not talking about the usual Ms drawbacks. He's talking about the illness we find out about.

The other thing is that Obito doesn't really have a reason to lie about Itachi being sick to sasuke. While he does so in masking his identity, and Kyubi attack.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Sasuke: " All my cells hurt...so this is the Susanoo's SIDE EFFECT."

Sasuke" So much pain and I haven't even achieved complete possession form yet. HOW BAD WAS IT FOR ITACHI"


Sasuke directly linked the pain from Susanoo to itachi.




Sasuke started bleeding from his mouth



Sasuke coughing blood




Sasuke coughing more blood.


Keep in mind, the Susanoo-level Sasuke is using is below the one itachi was using...

So, @BlackHeartedImp

if you could show us where itachi was showing to actually being sick, that would be lovely.

Here is the one itachi was showing to be coughing blood, when he was using Susanoo..



we know he used Susanoo there to protect him from Kirin


as he stated here

he is showing pain and coughing blood here while he is using Susanoo just like how Sasuke was

*Spoiler*: _4_ 









all this while using Susanoo. Which we already know its effect. Its effect is more severe because it's at a higher level than
the one sasuke used. Just like how Sasuke was not coughing blood when he was only using the ribcage, but he was coughing blood
when he was using the skeleton Susanoo and the higher one.  (Which itachi's Susanoo is the next level of that as well)

even the "illness" panel Obito was using was when itachi was using Susanoo


it's too much of a coincidence if you ask me.  

had this alleged "illness" that itachi had was of a different panel (perhaps when itachi was going around with the Akatsuki)
then, sure. It would have been a stronger proof.

But it's literally of itachi using Susanoo. It just shows that Obito was ignorant of Susanoo and its effect
and was making shit up to convince Sasuke...  



"at the same time, *it can consume the caster as well*" 


yeah, all evidence leads to the fact that Obito did not know what he was talking about. Just like with many other things... 


if I am forgetting something, please do tell me...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

And as a counter to all the above, you literally just need a panel of part one Itachi using Tsukyomi vs Part two.
One is huffy for a couple of seconds despite using it twice, the other collapses to the ground.
Zetsu was wondering why Itachi was slower despite the MS drawbacks being clearly established as a plot point before hand
Obito then claims Itachi was prolonging his life with medication, with no specific reason to lie or have that detail wrong - unlike for instance - Haragomo's story, the Kyubi's attack ect.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

...

I leave the thread alone for a few hours and we are GENUINELY discussing whether or not Itachi was sick???

Whats next? Was Minato not ever really the Hokage?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gianfi (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> ...
> 
> I leave the thread alone for a few hours and we are GENUINELY discussing whether or not Itachi was sick???
> 
> Whats next? Was Minato not ever really the Hokage?


Show me a panel clearly stating Minato was an Hokage? Because as far as I’m concerned everyone who said that was just lying to make Naruto feel better about his parents


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Trash arguments as always... how about you focus on direct comparisons between Jiraiya and Itachi instead of using stupid A > B > C logic? When we compare them directly we have:
> 
> Itachi stating they're equal back in P1 (ib4 "Itachi is a liar! He lied about only Jiraiya's strength but no one else's!").



Believe me, your stupid A = B, so C = D nonsense isn't any better. At least his makes concrete comparisons based on how both were viewed whereas you are making an invalid argument using premises that literally don't make sense logically. And for the record, A > B > C logic has consistently been used by Kishimoto to emphasize the power of those such as Minato, so that it is easier to comprehend just how powerful they actually are.

On that note no, it's the fact that Kishimoto clearly had no idea how powerful Itachi was nor did he know exactly how powerful Kisame was at the time. This is explicitly shown by the superior feats they've garnered against much more powerful opponents including how Kishi made it explicitly clear that Itachi should've been much stronger, so that he can adjust his power if need be. Even after Itachi's death, Obito admitted that he would've died and literally gave into Itachi's ultimatum.

 If you want to take into consideration of portrayal, Minato was treated as Naruto's benchmark at the time. Likewise, Itachi was treated as Sasuke's benchmark at the time.



> 2. Jiraiya has SM and Itachi has MS, two power-ups that made Naruto and Sasuke (their successors) equal.
> 3. The theme of SM users either being portrayed as stronger than or at the very least equal to MS users on the same level as them.



   Literally unbelievable. So A = B, then C = D is your only argument? This is a ridiculous assertion because Sage Mode and MS clearly varies in power dependent on the user. MS Itachi is clearly above MS Sasuke and SM Naruto is clearly above SM Jiraiya, so how in the world did you conclude that MS Itachi = SM Jiraiya from this?



> Jiraiya having SM sensing which counters Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (ib4 "Kabuto didn't sense it so Jiraiya can't!" Even though it was never directed at Kabuto to begin with and his sensing is good enough to fight completely blind but can't detect Amaterasu )
> 
> 
> Jiraiya having sound-based jutsu (Frog Call & Frog Song) that we know shuts down and bypasses Susanoo and affects MS users.




 So Jiraiya is literally reacting at a speed far higher than V2 Raikage. Bruh, if a Sage was forced to blind themselves to escape Sharingan Genjutsu and MS Genjutsu, what makes you think that another Sage will? Oh let me guess, you're going to pull some shit out of your ass about how these Sages are different yet equal at the same time. 

 Yes because Jiraiya is going to get away before he gets Amaterasu'd or a Totsuka lodged up his ass. Gotcha.



> But nah, let's focus on some dumb arguments that revolve around Orochimaru's "indisputable" superior portrayal over Jiraiya. Even though in P2 it was established that Orochimaru is too weak to use SM while Jiraiya can (ib4 another piss poor argument about how Jiraiya's SM not being perfectly balanced is just as bad as Orochimaru not being able to use it at all).



 But wait, wasn't Gai too weak to use ninjutsu yet he almost killed a Juubi Jin? 

 While you're at it, might as well put Hiruzen above Minato because he could master all of the elements meanwhile, Minato could only master three. This is a hilariously bad argument because clearly each shinobi has their own strengths and weaknesses.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Gianfi said:


> Show me a panel clearly stating Minato was an Hokage? Because as far as I’m concerned everyone who said that was just lying to make Naruto feel better about his parents


Seems legit man

Damn

I concede

Itachi was never sick, Minato was never Hokage, Naruto isnt blonde, Rasengan isnt round


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> But wait, wasn't Gai too weak to use ninjutsu yet he almost killed a Juubi Jin?
> 
> While you're at it, might as well put Hiruzen above Minato because he could master all of the elements meanwhile, Minato could only master three. This is a hilariously bad argument because clearly each shinobi has their own strengths and weaknesses.


Nagato mastered all 5 basic elements and Yang release at age 10...

BSM Naruto only knew Fuuton...

10 year old Nagato > BSM Naruto confirmed

Seems legit


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Nagato mastered all 5 basic elements and Yang release at age 10...
> 
> BSM Naruto only knew Fuuton...
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's a hilariously bad argument.

 Minato couldn't learn FRS, Naruto could yet Minato still exceeds SM Naruto let alone IA Base Naruto lol.



 I expected better from you @Isaiah13000.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I expected better from you @Isaiah13000.


I didnt 

Orochimaru achieved a level of LEGITIMATE IMMORTALITY

Jiraiya got literally training wheel SM...


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> If you want to take into consideration of portrayal, Minato was treated as Naruto's benchmark at the time. Likewise, Itachi was treated as Sasuke's benchmark at the time.


what about the "new sannin" chapter during the war arc? 
(don't remember the exact name. When Team 7 summoned the trio and were compared to the Sannin"


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what about the "new sannin" chapter during the war arc?
> (don't remember the exact name. When Team 7 summoned the trio and were compared to the Sannin"



What comparison? You mean the one where they were reminded of the Sannin simply because they could replicate one iconic scene? That's not using them as a benchmark, that's simply the trio reminding their elders of the Sannin trio. 

 Didn't Kakashi say that Sasuke reminded him of himself? Or that Naruto reminded Jiraiya and Tsunade of Minato even though he clearly was not at that level?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what about the "new sannin" chapter during the war arc?
> (don't remember the exact name. When Team 7 summoned the trio and were compared to the Sannin"



Clearly Byakugo Sakura, EMS Sasuke, and KCM post Kurama coop Naruto only JUST surpassed or equaled their teachers

Its clearly not just a writing parallel with no other implications

Good find hussain


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain proved one thing. Susanoo is a taxing move regardless of whether the user is in good health.
That is a far cry from proving Itachi wasn't actually sick, despite all indicators to the contrary.\


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> What comparison? You mean the one where they were reminded of the Sannin simply because they could replicate one iconic scene? That's not using them as a benchmark, that's simply the trio reminding their elders of the Sannin trio.
> 
> Didn't Kakashi say that Sasuke reminded him of himself? Or that Naruto reminded Jiraiya and Tsunade of Minato even though he clearly was not at that level?



So, the title of the chapter is called
"a new three-way deadlock" or "the new three"




this means nothing.

But sasuke saying "how bad was it for itachi"
means everything? Sounds legit...


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> So, the title of the chapter is called
> "a new three-way deadlock" or "the new three"
> 
> 
> ...



 Bruh, what do you mean? Sasuke's statement implies that Itachi mastered the MS, which Sasuke questioned how he managed to do it which he treated as a benchmark for himself. It couldn't be more clear.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Hussain proved one thing. Susanoo is a taxing move regardless of whether the user is in good health.
> That is a far cry from proving Itachi wasn't actually sick, despite all indicators to the contrary.\



what all indicators?

all I am seeing is people acting idioitc. No one of them has yet to bring ONE incident where itachi was NOT using Susanoo
and felt sick.

For example, we have actually seeing Kimmimaro on the bed and being treated. Which proves that he was indeed sick.
we have NO example of itachi outside of using Susanoo showing to be sick.

And we know Obito had agenda in his convo to be met. And we know he had lied/being ignorant regarding a lot of things
1- Hago story
2- Kurama's attack
3- Izanagi requirement
4- Being Asspulldara
5- Given Nagato the Rinnegan
6- the fact behind Rin's death

...etc

no one actually bothered to say "no you are wrong because we have seen itachi being sick at X, Y, and Z" and it was noted by other characters and whatnot...etc

they are just acting like foolish kids. Where I did provide examples to why I think the way I do


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what all indicators?
> 
> all I am seeing is people acting idioitc. No one of them has yet to bring ONE incident where itachi was NOT using Susanoo
> and felt sick.
> ...



For Christ sake, Kishi literally hinted at Itachi being gravely ill before the battle even started. Your baseless assumptions are irrelevant here.


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## Gianfi (Feb 15, 2019)

Itachi’s genjutsu is so powerful that he was able to put Hussain in an illusion world where he is not sick and after so many years the illusion is still active someone use partner method on him c’mon


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Bruh, what do you mean? Sasuke's statement implies that Itachi mastered the MS, which Sasuke questioned how he managed to do it which he treated as a benchmark for himself. It couldn't be more clear.


ok, and what was that chapter title was meant for? And Minato/Hiruzen's reaction to it?


UchihaX28 said:


> For Christ sake, Kishi literally hinted at Itachi being gravely ill before the battle even started. Your baseless assumptions are irrelevant here.


Then post those pages and stop wasting my time.


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## Shazam (Feb 15, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> You honestly shouldn't given a "=" option, and left it up to ultimatum. Everyone is gonna side one way or another.



I had too because I'm one of those who actually believe that Kishi portrayed them to be equals. So why leave out an option that is legitimate? Otherwise those 6 people would be forced to either not vote (which isnt fair) or choose a side that they dont believe in (which also isnt fair)


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

So, since you rated my post funny
I am assuming you found those pages already, @UchihaX28 ? 

or do you need more time to search for them...


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

of course, the rest of itachi's fanbase are welcome to provide any incident where
itachi was showing to be ill, was showing in a hospital, in a flashback...etc etc

 besides when he was only using Susanoo....

I guess they could provide a useful help for you @UchihaX28 

damn, I am so nice...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

It not up to us to show a panel of him in a hospital. 

It would be akin to asking for a panel of Sasuke's birth to prove he wasn't adopted.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> It not up to us to show a panel of him in a hospital.
> 
> It would be akin to asking for a panel of Sasuke's birth to prove he wasn't adopted.


the hospital was just an example. I am asking to provide *ANYTHING *

to show that itachi was actually sick. The *ONLY* thing we have is him coughing blood* when he was using Susanoo*. Which we *KNOW* is a side-effect of the jutsu. That's like me saying "Well, we have sick Minato who was severely weakened and dying as well. The proof? Well, he died after using SF "

at least that's as far as my memory goes. I SINCERELY don't remember ANY incident where itachi was actually shown to be sick. And that's why I am asking for those pages that show otherwise. The fact that no one (until now at least) posted anything further proves my point.

Which is the fact that it was simply the Susanoo's effect the same way it happened with Sasuke. Unless we are trying to say Sasuke is diagnosed with the same illness as well..


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## JayK (Feb 15, 2019)

Is there seriously a debate going on about Itachi actually being ill? This is some KMC level shit.


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

Like I said before nothing is more entertaining than seeing Hussain performing at his best  

Sadly the posters above probably won't agree.


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## Bookworm (Feb 15, 2019)

Something that might show Itachi was sick:


Itachi was also grabbing his heart.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

it's been more than an hour, @UchihaX28 
have you found something yet?


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> This is some KMC level shit.



Reveal yourself now.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's been more than an hour, @UchihaX28
> have you found something yet?



 Bruh, I got university homework too you know.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Bruh, I got university homework too you know.


Well, since you said " Kishi literally hinted at Itachi being gravely ill before the battle even started"  I assumed
you knew what you were talking about and would remember the chapter or at least remember the event itself... I guess I was wrong. 


welp, let's hope your Uchiha brothers would have something then...


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Gonna be honest.

Didn't think the polls would favour Itachi as high as they did. I knew the majority thought Itachi was stronger, but I didn't think it were such a large one.  The last poll on this subject was closer. I'm guessing this has to do with the recent slew of arguments from Jiraiya's fanbase turning off sane people. Funnily enough, the same dolts people seem to be doing their level best to make sure Jiraiya is never respected to such a degree again.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

itachi's fans have always been more than Jman's fans tho. 
and I don't think I have seen anyone on the poll who think Jman is stronger than itachi
voted for itachi now.

They are the exact same itachi's fans voting for him again...

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

So like...

The fact its STATED By Obito that Itachi had cancer isnt enough to prove he had cancer?

What do we need?

A panel of him getting chemotherapy or bust???

> “Prove that Itachi was sick”
> “No not that way tho”

Wow 

This is like looking at the panel in the manga where its stated that Jiraiya named Naruto, then asking for a second panel stating the exact same information to validate the first instance...

Guys...This series isnt that fucking complicated...Its intended for 12 year olds 

The fact some people dont JUST want their hands held, but ALSO want you to read a picture book to them is pretty damn sad


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> itachi's fans have always been more than Jman's fans tho.
> and I don't think I have seen anyone on the poll who think Jman is stronger than itachi
> voted for itachi now.
> 
> They are the exact same itachi's fans voting for him again...



Correction.... The Itachi camp has gained support while the Jiriaya camp has stayed the same in both size and ignorance.

The last poll on the subject by @Orochimaruwantsyourbody had users vote when asked 

16 people believed Jiraiya was > or = to Itachi
9 People thought either notion was crazy
8 people thought Jiraiya being > Itachi was crazy, but they just disagreed they're equals
8 people thought neither idea was crazy but disagreed

The poll options aren't worded the best tbh, but in the end, despite @Shazam @JuicyG's stifled approach to the English language, it meant that 16 people erred towards Jiriaya while 25 supported Itachi. He gained 9 extra votes here despite this pole only being up for a day. Don't know where they came from. But I'm guessing their hand was forced when Jiraiya's camp started asking for pictures of him in hospital and medical records to prove he was ill in part 2.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Oh, so the fact that Obito STATED that Haguromo was the one who fought the Juubi on his own



did not actually fight the Juubi on his own? 



the tablet that was written by Hago


was  written by Zetsu? 



Kurama attack that Obito TOTALLY did not have anything to do with


he might have been the one who did it



Surely the man can't be questioned for his credibility.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Correction.... The Itachi camp has gained support while the Jiriaya camp has stayed the same in both size and ignorance.
> 
> The last poll on the subject by @Orochimaruwantsyourbody had users vote when asked
> 
> ...



that poll has more options (and fewer voters). Obviously, the rating would be more wide-spread. 

this poll does not have the same options. Even if someone think itachi is only slightly stronger than Jman, they would still vote
for itachi.


also, I can't see the voters on the other thread, so it's not like it's necessarily the same voters

what's with people not comprehending shit. And here I thought it's Turrin...


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 15, 2019)

So because you can find things that X character said that were incorrect fucking every word theyeve ever said is wrong?  

Pull your head out of your troll taint @Hussain 

Youre drunk 

Stupid fucking arguments start to finish


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Oh, so the fact that Obito STATED that Haguromo was the one who fought the Juubi on his own
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So your logic is that once someone is wrong, they're wrong all the time, so they must be interrogated to prove that what they said is correct? That would be terrible logic to apply in real life. Consider this, every statement in the manga has intrinsic value because they're explicit statements constructed by the author. We have no reason to not believe them unless there are explicit contradictions that are made in the story. Obito's understanding of the Six Paths was contradicted because it ties into the story behind Black Zetsu and how he manipulated both Obito and Madara to instigate Kaguya's resurrection. On the contrary, there is no reason to discount both Obito and Zetsu's remarks of Itachi being deathly ill, especially when it's shoved in our face multiple times and never once contradicted. Actually, it's reinforced by later feats.

 Now stop grasping at straws Hussain boi. 

Can you provide statements where characters claim that Itachi was not ill and Zetsu and Obito were talking out of there asses? No? I didn't think so.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

WorldsStrongest said:


> So because you can find things that X character said that were incorrect fucking every word theyeve ever said is wrong?
> 
> Pull your head out of your troll taint @Hussain
> 
> ...



no, you bring your head out of your ass. 


we have seen itachi being in pain when HE WAS USING SUSANOO.
SAME shit happened to SASUKE!!

that's the ONLY time EVER was itachi showing in such a state. Which means, it's Susanoo effect.

you said ".Its intended for 12 year olds "

Well, I guess you are younger than 12 years old then...  



anyway. I know itachi's fans have nothing (otherwise they would have posted already) so I would leave it at that.

Thank you.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> that poll has more options (and fewer voters). Obviously, the rating would be more wide-sperate.



Don't know what the fuck _wide separate_ is_, _but it's important to note that the poll differential increased over time. The percentage of support for Itachi (which is what counts) grew, compared to the percentage for Jiriaya. 



Hussain said:


> this poll does not have the same options. Even if someone think itachi is only slightly stronger than Jman, they would still vote
> for itachi.



This same is true for the old poll I linked. It had an option - when asked whether people thought Jiraiya being > or = Itachi was crazy - that neither was crazy, even if they disagreed.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> So your logic is that once someone is wrong, they're wrong all the time, so they must be interrogated to prove that what they said is correct? That would be terrible logic to apply in real life. Consider this, every statement in the manga has intrinsic value because they're explicit statements constructed by the author. We have no reason to not believe them unless there are explicit contradictions that are made in the story. Obito's understanding of the Six Paths was contradicted because it ties into the story behind Black Zetsu and how he manipulated both Obito and Madara to instigate Kaguya's resurrection.
> 
> Now stop grasping at straws Hussain boi.





1- a person is known for being a liar/ignorant
2- a person is known for having an agenda.
3- info on the side effect of a specific jutsu (Susanoo)
4- we have seen those side effects of Susanoo applied to Sasuke
5- itachi was coughing blood while using Susanoo (a side effect that WE KNOW of said jutsu)

> oh God, what a horrible idea to suggest the possibility that those things may be related.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> 1- a person is known for being a lier/ignorant
> 2- a person is known for having an agenda.



 Not a proper rebuttal.

Not to mention that what Obito told Sasuke about the Uchiha coup wasn't fabricated, so he's clearly not lying unless noted otherwise. Simply being a liar doesn't constitute lying all the time.



> 3- info on the side effect of a specific jutsu (Susanoo)
> 4- we have seen those side effects of Susanoo applied to Sasuke
> 5- itachi was coughing blood while using Susanoo (a side effect that WE KNOW of said jutsu)
> 
> > oh God, what a horrible idea to suggest the possibility that those things may be related.



 Except Sasuke never clutched his heart while in Susano'o. Itachi did.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Not a proper rebuttal.
> 
> Not to mention that what Obito told Sasuke about the Uchiha coup wasn't fabricated, so he's clearly not lying unless noted otherwise. Simply being a liar doesn't constitute lying all the time.
> 
> ...



- a good liar will say half the truth. you might be a bit naive to think a liar will not put some truth in his statement to make his story
more believable. 

and we know someone with agenda will do to fulfill his agenda. Please, do consider getting more into politics. U_U

- as for "noted otherwise" it was noted otherwise. We have seen Susanoo's effect on Sasuke who did
the same thing as itachi. What more do you want? 


by your logic, we can't conclude that he was lying about Kurama or Haguromo and whatnot. Because Kishi did not physically came and say  "Dear UchihaX28 - chan please do note that Obito was lying about Kurama's attack being natural disaster...etc" 




> Except Sasuke never clutched his heart while in Susano'o. Itachi did




1- itachi used a higher level of Susanoo. I.E the pain will be greater
2- someone who is in pain does not have to do the EXACT same shit as someone else.

what kind of dumb shit is this? 

Sasuke did not touch any place in his body, I guess he was never "really" in pain? 



Anyway, I give up.


I can't take more of those posts. 
each one is worst than the last.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain, just because Obito was ignorant of events altered in the history books and he wasn't alive for - Haragomo vs Juubi, doesn't mean he's wrong about Itachi's progressive illness. Just like you might not be fully privy to all of the historical question marks regarding Henry VIII's exploits, but will certainly know whether your work colleague is dying of cancer.

He also has a good reason to lie about the nine tails attack to Sasuke, seen as it may have caused the Uhciha's downwards spiral in the first instance. Obito being responsible for that, might choose to alter the facts himself. However, he doesn't really gain much from lying about Itachi being ill, and seen as it's never contradicted in the manga, is supported his easier handing of the MS in part one (not falling on his knees after one tsukyomi) and Zetsu's curiosity about his speed in part 2, means we have no reason to believe it's a lie.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Hussain, just because Obito was ignorant of events altered in the history books and he wasn't alive for - Haragomo vs Juubi doesn't mean he's wrong about Itachi's progressive illness. Just like you might not be fully privy to all of the historical question marks regarding Henry VIII's exploits, but will certainly know whether your work colleague is dying of cancer.
> 
> He also has a good reason to lie about the nine tails attack to Sasuke, seen as it may have caused the Uhciha's downwards spiral in the first instance. Obito being responsible for that, might choose to alter the facts himself. However, he doesn't really gain much from lying about Itachi being ill, and seen as it's never contradicted in the manga, and is supported  his easier handing of the MS in part one and Zetsu's curiosity in part 2, means we have no reason to believe it's a lie.



Did obito see or use Susanoo before? 
how would he know about what its effect is?  


if we were to give him the benefit of the doubt, at best he was guessing based on seeing itachi's coughing (via Zetsu)


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 15, 2019)

I like how majority of Hussain's arguments involve skipping our argument entirely just to say one thing that we've already refuted.

It is a good change of pace from the shitty arguments you guys have been dishing out lately.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> I like how majority of Hussain's arguments involve skipping our argument entirely just to say one thing that we've already refuted.
> 
> It is a good change of pace from the shitty arguments you guys have been dishing out lately.


What argument? you don't have any. 

"oh look Itachi touched his heart" he must have a disease. 

"oh look Sasuke did NOT touch his body" he must have been the best he ever was.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

oh look, Naruto's heartbeat is getting weaker




Totally not because Kurama was pulled out.

Naruto must have the same disease as itachi. 




disgusting...


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## King1 (Feb 15, 2019)

> Be me
> Bumps into the thread and take a look at the poll and the topic
> Sees the disparity of those who are of the opinion that itachi > jiraiya which is the correct decision approve by King himself

Threads like this give me hope that the dark days of the NBD and the end of the jiraiya wanking is near

OT: Itachi beats jiraiya. He is portrayed as equal to MS Sasuke who is equal to SM Naruto who is superior to jiraiya. He has too much hax for jiraiya to deal with

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Is the point in question : some people can die from battle without having a disease.

If so, that's true.

Does it contradict Itachi having a disease himself? No.


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## Ishmael (Feb 15, 2019)

You boys arguing with Hussain for the Lols right? You don't all think he's serious right now.... right?


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> You boys arguing with Hussain for the Lols right? You don't all think he's serious right now.... right?


I am actually serious. U_U

itachi was never shown to have any disease. And all evidence leads to the fact that it was
Susanoo's effect the same way it happened with Sasuke. U_U


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> You boys arguing with Hussain for the Lols right? You don't all think he's serious right now.... right?



Poes law. 

Perhaps the next poll should be titled _NBD General Consensus on Hussain. Just a Troll or Legitimately Insane ?_


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> Poes law.
> 
> Perhaps the next poll should be titled _NBD General Consensus on Hussain. Just a Troll or Legitimately Insane ?_


I think you are anti-semitic.


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## King1 (Feb 15, 2019)

@Hussain is on a roll right now, his boy dominated itachi in the last thread but sadly jiraiya cannot replicate minato's feats.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I think you are anti-semitic.



Your intuition serves you well.


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

King1 said:


> @Hussain is on a roll right now, his boy dominated itachi in the last thread but sadly jiraiya cannot replicate minato's feats.


frankly, did not think Minato will get more votes than itachi. 
NBD has always been ruled by itachi's fans... 


the good old days when I was spammed with negs by them... 

oh well... U_U


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## King1 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> frankly, did not think Minato will get more votes than itachi.
> NBD has always been ruled by itachi's fans...
> 
> 
> ...


Hence why I said the dark days of the NBD is coming to an end

I suggest you stick to supporting minato and naruto bro, they are the only ones that can give you wins and happiness. Jiraiya will only embarrass you and bring you sadness and disappointment


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## Trojan (Feb 15, 2019)

King1 said:


> Hence why I said the dark days of the NBD is coming to an end
> 
> I suggest you stick to supporting minato and naruto bro, they are the only ones that can give you wins and happiness. Jiraiya will only embarrass you and bring you sadness and disappointment



Being a Shia, Imam Ali said
"Don't find the path of truth desolate, although its followers are but few" 
or
"Don't find the path of truth desolate due to the paucity of its followers"

whatever the translation more fitting is... 


So, don't worry about me in that regard...


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## King1 (Feb 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Being a Shia, Imam Ali said
> "Don't find the path of truth desolate, although its followers are but few"
> or
> "Don't find the path of truth desolate due to the paucity of its followers"
> ...


Ah nice bro, didn't know you were shia well I didn't wanna assume 

Am sunni but we are all brothers


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## Shazam (Feb 15, 2019)

Yeah luckily I havent been on the computer (rather than the phone) to actual hold a debate here. Under these stips Itachi, healthy or not, is extremely hard pressed, win or lose


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## Braiyan (Feb 15, 2019)

Never thought a conspiracy theory on Itachi not being sick would go on for 4+ pages. I guess that's one way to spend the time.

Anyways Itachi would win. Jiraiya doesn't have a reliable way to deal with genjutsu + his MS techs even with things skewed this much in his favour.


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## Tri (Feb 15, 2019)

Obito's word on Itachi's condition isn't the only indication of Itachi's sickness though. Every instance of Zetsu questioning what the hell was up with Itachi also backs the notion that Itachi is sick. Obito's words literally just confirm what was implied a few chapters before.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ziggy Stardust (Feb 16, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I had too because I'm one of those who actually believe that Kishi portrayed them to be equals. So why leave out an option that is legitimate? Otherwise those 6 people would be forced to either not vote (which isnt fair) or choose a side that they dont believe in (which also isnt fair)



Becuase the notion of exact equals isn't realistic. And being _rough equals_ wouldn't preclude one from being slightly stronger than the other. Those who voted equal would have gone either way, while still being true to their choice. 

The way you've done it makes it look like Jiraiya has even less support, whereas if it came down two choices only, he would have probably netted another 5 votes.


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## Hi no Ishi (Feb 16, 2019)

Jiraiya wanker vs Jiraiya hater threads are always some of the most fun to read.
Everyone else is just caught in the cross fire lol.

To me these two were always parallel to each other. They were called suggested to be on the same level by both Kisame and Itachi in part one, and Jiraiya considered just driving them off to be a high effort situation.
They were the hill Naruto and Sasuke had to climb and path they had to follow to get to their MS and SM versions where they are once again considered about even again.
I put both on the lower end of high Kage


Anywho, short lol list!

1. Lol at people thinking not sensing Pain means you aren't a sensor. Naruto, Ino, Inoichi, Ma and Pa all got snuck up on by him as well as 2 ANBU even when some of them were in a defensive formation.
Are you saying the Sensing Division Captain isn't a sensor too?

2. Lol at people thinking Jiraiya can just sense Amaterasu and react in time. Will he notice the Mangekyo and bleeding eye like others have and react in time? Sure.
But just because SM gives you sensing doesnt mean your an expert with it, and Jiraiya did not sound like he thought sensing was his strong point either.
Still has it though.

3. Lol at everyone who thinks blocking Amaterasu is a v2 A level feat and that it has no buildup time that people can react to and block even though base and BM B, exhausted base Naruto, Nagato, Hebi Sasuke etc have all reacted to it's user getting one off. Or that an entire room of people saw Sasuke change to the Mangegyo before it got off. 
I think Itachi can beat Jiraiya but some OOC ass instant Amaterasu isn't going to do anything than get Jiraiya's burning hair tossed at you.
Never mind that starting off with Amaterasu is as IC as Jiraiya taking over your shadow and controlling you or turning someone into a frog. 
Except the last two actually happened.

4. Lol at anyone saying shit like "Itachi was lying about being even with Jiraiya, because he is a known liar. Obito was telling the truth about Itachi though, becaise he is a known liar. Sounds Legit"
No double standards here!


5. Lol at people thinking Itachi is a parallel to Itachi when the two are never remotely mentioned together, and Minato flomped the dude Itachi said he was trying to catch up to and thought was Madara. 

I still love y'all though.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Whackshot (Feb 18, 2019)

Definitely Itachi. Sure there's an outdated pre-shippuden statement hyping them as equals, but we're past that now. Oro being portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin, and Itachi slaughtering him in a blitz on his deathbed really show you large the gap is between Itachi and the Sannin.

Itachi can neg all 3 at once, let alone 1v1


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## Whackshot (Feb 18, 2019)

What @Hussain


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## Trojan (Feb 18, 2019)

Whackshot said:


> What @Hussain


nothing. Don't mind me...


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## Sacred Sentinel (Feb 16, 2020)

Azula said:


> Also using Orochimaru as a middle guy is desperate. Orochimaru gets beat by Jiraiya as well.
> 
> Hard worker>Born Genius, this theme is literally hammered in our heads. Genius character is hyped in his early life, has the initial lead, but gets surpassed because hard work and perseverance and all that jazz.
> 
> ...



Trying to argue Jiraiya > Orochimaru because Hard worker > Born Genius is hilarious. The guy with a hedonistic lifestyle of whoring, drinking and writing books works harder than the guy always grinding jutsu and experiments?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Feb 16, 2020)

Itachi surely is stomping


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## Jackalinthebox (Feb 16, 2020)

Poor Jiraiya


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## Quipchaque (Feb 16, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> ...
> 
> I leave the thread alone for a few hours and we are GENUINELY discussing whether or not Itachi was sick???
> 
> Whats next? Was Minato not ever really the Hokage?



We are talking about the two same guys that use Boruto nonsense and even filler episodes to put Jiraiya above Itachi, try to convince people that Akatsuki are all jounin level and that ignore statements like Itachi saying with Tsukuyomi he can't lose and Zetsu and Kisame clearly contradicting Jiraiya's hype... What did you expect?


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## Quipchaque (Feb 16, 2020)

Hussain said:


> frankly, did not think Minato will get more votes than itachi.
> NBD has always been ruled by itachi's fans...
> 
> 
> ...



Don't worry keep it up and you will get some more... Just need to wait until my 6 user cooldown is used up.


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## Symmetry (Feb 16, 2020)

I don’t think Itachi is so much stronger that Jiriaya can never win, but I don’t think Jiriaya is equal to Itachi. Itachi takes it 8 out of ten times imo. Maybe 7 out of ten if I stretch it. 


Itachi is by no means mid diffing tho, nothing but high diff or extreme.


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## Symmetry (Feb 16, 2020)

Minato = Healthy Itachi > sick Itachi => SM Jman = Orochimaru IMHO


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## Symmetry (Feb 16, 2020)

Also hilarious at those saying Orochimaru is STRONGER then Jiriaya to try and say Jman doesn’t win.

you have to do some mental gymnastics to say that Orochimaru without Edo tensei is stronger then Jiriaya. This idea is neither supported by feats nor is it supported by portrayal and hype.


Neither Orochimaru or Jiriaya really have feats that put them above each other, if anything Jman has more feats then Orochimaru does, he just also happens to have more anti feats as a result.


No where was it portrayed that Orochimaru is stronger then Jman either. Sure it was portrayed he is way stronger then Jman IN BASE, that doesn’t equate to sage mode at all. Show me the statement or implication that Orochimaru is stronger then Jman.


I shall wait.


If you want to argue Itachi is stronger because Orochimaru is equal to Jman then okay, but to try and say Orochimaru is stronger then Jman as a way to cement Jman as always losing is honestly laughable


I’m the Orochimaru stan and even I’m not going to say he’s stronger then Jman without ET.


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## Symmetry (Feb 16, 2020)

Whackshot said:


> Oro being portrayed as the strongest of the Sannin,






JayK said:


> that someone who is arguably weaker than Orochimaru



How


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## Illusory (Feb 16, 2020)

Where’s the option for Sharingan-less Itachi being superior?


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 16, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> I don’t think Itachi is so much stronger that Jiriaya can never win, but I don’t think Jiriaya is equal to Itachi. Itachi takes it 8 out of ten times imo. Maybe 7 out of ten if I stretch it.
> 
> 
> Itachi is by no means mid diffing tho, nothing but high diff or extreme.


Yet...


Orochimaru op said:


> Healthy Itachi > sick Itachi => SM Jman


You acknowledge a dead on his feet Itachi as still superior to an advantaged Jiraiya who STARTS in SM...

Huh...

Seems like youd agree that a mid diff at worst happens in neutral settings that dont heavily favor Jman


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## Alita (Feb 16, 2020)

Wow I have never seen such a lopsided poll result. 50 votes for itachi vs 8 votes for sm jiraiya. Even if you combine votes for jiraiya and them being equals it's not even half of itachi's votes.

Hopefully after this people will finally stop doing these done to death itachi vs jiraiya threads.  

.............



Yeah right who am I kidding?


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## Symmetry (Feb 16, 2020)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Yet...
> 
> You acknowledge a dead on his feet Itachi as still superior to an advantaged Jiraiya who STARTS in SM...
> 
> ...




In a neutral setting I see Jman entering SM everytime anyways. And healthy Itachi can still lose to Jiriaya, there’s just an even less chance. Not a mid diff though.


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## Sufex (Feb 17, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> In a neutral setting I see Jman entering SM everytime anyways. And healthy Itachi can still lose to Jiriaya, there’s just an even less chance. Not a mid diff though.


Yeah because someone as fast as itachi will let Jiraiya run away for an entire chapter with his hand clapped when he can 1 panel his summons with genjutsu and and shot Jiraiya SM or not with amaterasu.


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## Sufex (Feb 17, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Wow I have never seen such a lopsided poll result. 50 votes for itachi vs 8 votes for sm jiraiya. Even if you combine votes for jiraiya and them being equals it's not even half of itachi's votes.
> 
> Hopefully after this people will finally stop doing these done to death itachi vs jiraiya threads.
> 
> ...


You will still need to convince @Shazam and what other dupe he is running around on these days


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## Symmetry (Feb 17, 2020)

Sufex said:


> Yeah because someone as fast as itachi will let Jiraiya run away for an entire chapter with his hand clapped when he can 1 panel his summons with genjutsu and and shot Jiraiya SM or not with amaterasu.




Jiriaya could easily escape into a hiding in a toad which masks chakra.


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## Sufex (Feb 17, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Jiriaya could easily escape into a hiding in a toad which masks chakra.


What does Itachi do during this time period. Watch him with his precognitive sharigan yet do absolute nothing?


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## blk (Feb 17, 2020)

Is it wank if i say that Base Itachi feints him into decapitation? 

I mean he feinted a Perfect Sage with triple sensing and an EMS user... While the toad fodder got blindsided no diff by a clumsy robot...


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## Symmetry (Feb 17, 2020)

Sufex said:


> What does Itachi do during this time period. Watch him with his precognitive sharigan yet do absolute nothing?



The point of the toad is to escape. Unless you wish to argue that it’s harder to escape from Itachi then it is to escape from six paths of pain with shared vision (which Jman did before dragging one into a toad) I’m pretty sure this is a very likely outcome.


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## Hayumi (Feb 17, 2020)

The difference in the votes tells it all tbh.


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## Sufex (Feb 17, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> The point of the toad is to escape. *Unless you wish to argue that it’s harder to escape from Itachi then it is to escape from six paths of pain with shared vision (which Jman did before dragging one into a toad)* I’m pretty sure this is a very likely outcome.


*He was already in SM,* Base Jman escaped from animal summons in the advantageous location of tunnels.

unless you are yo argue animal path >> Itachi in speed and perceptiveness


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## Symmetry (Feb 17, 2020)

Sufex said:


> *He was already in SM,* Base Jman escaped from animal summons in the advantageous location of tunnels.
> 
> unless you are yo argue animal path >> Itachi in speed and perceptiveness




Even if we are to assume that one armed SM Jman is _*double *_the power of base Jman, this would still mean Jman could do it to three paths, not to mention we already now the sharingan has issues with Los (see Kakashi vs mist)


It isn’t about how fast Itachi is, it’s about if Jman can break Los.


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## Sufex (Feb 17, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> Even if we are to assume that one armed SM Jman is _*double *_the power of base Jman, this would still mean Jman could do it to three paths, not to mention we already now the sharingan has issues with Los (see Kakashi vs mist)


even in this scenario,

MS Itachi >>> 3 paths only relying on taijutsu and shared vision


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## Symmetry (Feb 17, 2020)

Sufex said:


> even in this scenario,
> 
> MS Itachi >>> 3 paths only relying on taijutsu and shared vision




In terms of combat prowess sure. In terms of breaking Los no. Shared vision from three seperate entities is harder then doing so to one, especially since the rinnegan seems to have better locating abilities then the sharingan (Kakashi can’t see through mist yet animal path sees through a smoke bomb)


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## Sufex (Feb 18, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> In terms of combat prowess sure. In terms of breaking Los no. Shared vision from three seperate entities is harder then doing so to one, especially since the rinnegan seems to have better locating abilities then the sharingan (Kakashi can’t see through mist yet animal path sees through a smoke bomb)


Itachi is not those characters, he can easily employ crows to watch or even genjutsu Jman themselves, crow clones to keep watch and as we saw with him curving his kunbai against nagato, its bot like LoSgg is a viable argument when he himself used this same tech in combination with lethal jutsus  like he did against killer bee. this is disregarding the point getting into SM matters not anyways As susanoo decimates Jman, frog song being the only thing that can bypass it, Itachi displayed reactions both ahagainst sound jtusu in kabutos flute jutsu and as frog song is prepped, which takes time to synchronize as stated he can ama snipe, genjustsu or shushin dash to them. Not even considering the fact IC jman doesn't know the jutsu and only uses it as a last restort and he toads HATE doing it. I'll leave it here because I dont see us getting anywhere with this.


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## Quipchaque (Feb 18, 2020)

Alita54 said:


> Wow I have never seen such a lopsided poll result. 50 votes for itachi vs 8 votes for sm jiraiya. Even if you combine votes for jiraiya and them being equals it's not even half of itachi's votes.
> 
> Hopefully after this people will finally stop doing these done to death itachi vs jiraiya threads.
> 
> ...



We are all just Itachi fanboys... Didn't you know?


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