# War: Georgia-South Ossetia's ceasefire is broken



## Toby (Aug 8, 2008)

* Georgia surrounds rebel capital*

*Georgian jets attack separatists in South Ossetia*

Georgian troops are nearing the capital of the separatist region of South Ossetia after a night of heavy shelling and air strikes on rebel positions.

Fighting around Tskhinvali resumed just hours after both sides agreed to a ceasefire and Russian-mediated talks.

Georgia says its aim is to finish "a criminal regime" and restore order.

An emergency meeting of the UN Security Council failed to agree on a Russian statement calling on both sides to renounce the use of force.

At least 15 people are reported to have been killed and three Russian peacekeepers are among the wounded. Both sides blame each other for breaking the ceasefire.

Georgia's Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze told reporters on Friday the military operations would continue until there was "a durable peace".

"As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations," he told reporters.

South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity told Interfax news agency his forces were still in control of the city, but Georgia claims to have Tskhinvali surrounded.

Russian fighters

The Russian envoy to the UN, Vitaliy Churkin, described Georgia's actions as "treacherous".


SOUTH OSSETIA
Population: About 70,000
Capital: Tskhinvali
Major languages: Ossetian, Georgian, Russian
Major religion: Orthodox Christianity
Currency: Russian rouble, Georgian lari

"The situation in the conflict zone has reached a dramatic line," he told the emergency session, according to Russian Vesti TV news.

"Civilians, old people and children are under massive artillery shelling from Grad rocket systems, guns and large-calibre mortars."

Moscow, which supports the separatists, called on the international community to jointly work "to avert massive bloodshed and new victims".

At the UN emergency session Georgia's ambassador accused Russia of producing a one-sided document.

He also repeated claims that Russia was aiding South Ossetian forces and trying to escalate the conflict to the point where it can intervene.

Despite failing to agree a text, many council members did call on the parties to pull back.

China, where the Olympic Games opens on Friday, called for worldwide truce during the sporting event.

*Russian interests*

Hundreds of fighters from Russia and Georgia's other breakaway region of Abkhazia are reportedly heading to aid the separatist troops.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev is considering emergency measures and has summoned his national security council

Georgia accuses Russia of arming the South Ossetian authorities - who have been trying to break away since the civil war in the 1990s. Moscow denies the claim.

The BBC's James Rodgers in Moscow says Russia has always said it supports the territorial integrity of Georgia but has also said it would defend its citizens. Many South Ossetians hold Russian passports.

Russia is hostile to Georgia's ambition to join Nato and has accused Georgia of building up its forces around the breakaway regions, where Russian peacekeeping troops are deployed. 



---

They had reached a ceasefire-deal the other day, but according to Georgian sources the South Ossetian forces opened fire on Georgia, triggering open war.

You may remember last year that the Georgians claimed a Russian jet dropped a bomb on Georgian soil. This conflict has been going on since the devolution of the Soviet Union, and is likely to spark movement in NATO. Already yesterday the Security Council was called into an emergency session by Russian President Medvedev, yet it was President Putin who made the official address to the Russian people. More news will come out over the day.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Let's all hope this gets settled quickly, because the Olympics are gonna start and the world does not need another conflict right now, and innocent people are gonna die if this war gets out of control from all sides.


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## Purgatory (Aug 8, 2008)

...Why do I think another attack is going to happen? Jesus, I hope I'm wrong...


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

i predict that Russia will send ''peace keeping troops'' there and install a puppet government


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> i predict that Russia will send ''peace keeping troops'' there and install a puppet government



Is it me or has this already been tried before?


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## Surreal (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> Is it me or has this already been tried before?



Perhaps this time "peace keeping troops" will try to establish that peace trough some "aggressive negotiations" with the Georgian military.


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## Jin-E (Aug 8, 2008)

I've read somewhere that 90% of the population in South Ossetia has Russian passports. So its hardly suprising that Moscow wants to throw in their weight here. 

Wasnt it 48 hours ago or so since the Georgian president urged peacetalks between the governement and the seperatists? Was that simply a diversion?


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

thats because Russia is handing them over there freely.. they are not Russian themselfs.. what Russia is doing atm is really a divide and conquer thing


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## Toby (Aug 8, 2008)

Russia does not need a puppet government, an unrecognised one is already acting as if South Ossetia was separate from Georgian rule. The Ossetians are upset that they were not unified with Russia after the devolution of the Soviet Union, and Georgia won't let them.

Now that the hostilities have got war written all over them, one does not have bright hopes for Georgia's future either as a NATO member. The EU and Russia should act quickly here, and settle the territorial dispute once and for all.



Jin-E said:


> I've read somewhere that 90% of the population in South Ossetia has Russian passports. So its hardly suprising that Moscow wants to throw in their weight here.
> 
> Wasnt it 48 hours ago or so since the Georgian president urged peacetalks between the governement and the seperatists? Was that simply a diversion?



One wonders. The ceasefire was agreed upon, but Georgia claims that the Ossetians broke it first yesterday evening.


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

> one does not have bright hopes for Georgia's future either as a NATO member.



thats what excactly Russia wants


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## Nemesis (Aug 8, 2008)

Toby_Christ said:


> One wonders. The ceasefire was agreed upon, but Georgia claims that the Ossetians broke it first yesterday evening.



And the Ossetians say Georgia broke it first.  Neither side has any credibility any more in this conflict.  But North Ossetia and Abkhazia have both poised to get involved if it gets too big.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

*Russian tanks enter South Ossetia*



> Russian tanks are moving towards the capital of Georgia's separatist region of South Ossetia, which has been under heavy bombardment from Georgian forces.
> 
> Georgian President Mikhail Saakasvili said 150 Russian tanks and other vehicles had entered South Ossetia.
> 
> ...


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## Toby (Aug 8, 2008)

*Merged for simplicity and on-topic*

Could the attacks have been motivated to get publicity and attention from the world during the Olympics?


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Toby_Christ said:


> *Merged for simplicity and on-topic*
> 
> Could the attacks have been motivated to get publicity and attention from the world during the Olympics?



I want to say no but this is Russia and Eastern Europe we're talking about.  It'd be like China doing something brash if the Olympics were in Moscow...all about attention.

Ironically the US is trying not to get attention, albeit it's hard not to.


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## Megaharrison (Aug 8, 2008)

Weird thing about all this is just a number of days ago Russia convinced Israel to not deliver some advanced anti-tank missiles and UAV's to the Georgian military.

In any regard the whole "Russian peacekeeping force" rolling into a territory with its obsolete tanks (from the pictures I've seen on the news they're just T-72's) does nothing but remind me of Afghanistan. Russia's using this to try and install a puppet regime in South Ossetia so it can eventually wage proxy war against Georgia.


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## Vom Osten (Aug 8, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> thats what excactly Russia wants



South Ossetia or Georgia?


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## Toby (Aug 8, 2008)

^ Ragnarok: I think he meant that Russia doesn't want Georgia as a NATO-member, so it is making them choose right now what it is going to be.

Russia has wanted South Ossetia for a long time too, though, since it noticed that they want to be part of Russia. The "accident" of an empty bomb being dropped on Georgian soil last year was proof of this, and the Russian navy has been active in the area as well. Megaharisson is probably right about a proxy war, but we should see how the response turns out.

So far the Security Council adjourned without making any progress.


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Toby_Christ said:


> *So far the Security Council adjourned without making any progress*.



SHOCKER!!!


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## Mek Blaze (Aug 8, 2008)

*War: Russia attacks Georgia*

TSKHINVALI, Georgia - Russia sent forces into Georgia on Friday to repel a Georgian assault on the breakaway South Ossetia region. Georgia?s pro-Western president said the two countries were at war, while the Bush administration urged both sides to reach a truce and said it was sending an envoy to the region.

Source: 

WW3 anyone?


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Mek Blaze said:


> TSKHINVALI, Georgia - Russia sent forces into Georgia on Friday to repel a Georgian assault on the breakaway South Ossetia region. Georgia’s pro-Western president said the two countries were at war, while the Bush administration urged both sides to reach a truce and said it was sending an envoy to the region.
> 
> Source:
> 
> WW3 anyone?



Nope.  China and US aren't involved and it's more a territorial dispute.  China's too busy with Olympics.  This is just a cry for attention.  Don't jump the gun.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

And this thread kinda covers it.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Russia's been telling these two to stop. Also, Georgia is hardly an innocent bystander in all of this. They've been attacking S.Ossetian civilians over the past week or so, I'll go find the article. 

Also, Ukraine has given them weapons. They decided to deliberately start trouble with Russia, in hopes NATO would let them in. 


I say Russia should kick both of their asses, they're stupid enough to want war, give it to them.


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

WalkingMaelstrom said:


> SHOCKER!!!



 **


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## Mullet_Power (Aug 8, 2008)

CNN speaking to president of Georgia. Interesting stuff. He claims that they did not initiate an attack, which would make sense because as he put it, it's "suicidal" at this point.


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## Toby (Aug 8, 2008)

*Please check if anyone has posted the article you want to post before you make a thread about it.*


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## Darklyre (Aug 8, 2008)

Yup, it's a full-on war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia


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## Megaharrison (Aug 8, 2008)

Some new updates on this situation (I haven't checked the entire thread though):

1.) Russia is reporting 10 of its troops have been killed by the Georgian Army.

2.) Russian jet aircraft (likely SU-24's, though this is just my opinion) have bombed a Georgian airfield, killing 3 Georgian soldiers. Georgia apparently responded with a bombing raid on a Russian airfield.

Sources:  and American news TV.

Now that its evolved into open war the Russians may overrun Georgia. Putin's government has seemed rather eager to flex its muscle lately. That being said it could turn into a quagmire for the Russian Army, which is still suffering from multiple problems.

What's most worrying is that Georgia has become a _major_ U.S. ally.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

^One thing Russia always had advantage of was numbers on par with the PLA, so as Megaharrison stated, Georgia will most likely be overrun by sheer numbers if Russia can not score tactical victories


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Megaharrison said:


> Some new updates on this situation (I haven't checked the entire thread though):
> 
> 1.) Russia is reporting 10 of its troops have been killed by the Georgian Army.
> 
> ...



Wow.  How ironic that the day that was supposed to be China's has now become Russia's with this Georgia debacle.  So much for 8/8/08 the "luckiest day" according to Beijing.  I'm sure they are less than pleased with this.

I'll give Putin/Medvedev one thing.  They know how to steal a show and then some.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Imagine China invading Russia for messing up the games, and destroying their final chance at redemption and improving their image to the world. Walking was right, this was supposed to be China's day and the one time of the year where the world can unite before going back into chaos. If China gets really mad, i would not be surprised if they want to make russia pay for destroying their festivities.


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> Imagine China invading Russia for messing up the games, and destroying their final chance at redemption and improving their image to the world.



But I will say...that certainly makes things interesting for US/China and US/Russia relations.  It's like picking the lesser of two evils, like Tau and Eldar (Dice you knew it was coming sooner or later ), or just letting them take swings at each other.

I think China knows how bad that would be for them no matter how pissed I'm sure they're getting at Russia.


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## cacophony (Aug 8, 2008)

finally, some entertainment


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## Rikudou (Aug 8, 2008)

Russia can't be trusted in this scenario. 
Peacekeeping force should come from Turkey or EU.
Someone neither party would object to.


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## T4R0K (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't like Russians. I just can't. 

But damn ! I DO want to see them steamroll Georgia, 1945-style !!!! They are like, insane as space-marines on rampage trip !!! 

WalkingMaelstrom, don't you agree a Russian soldier with a chainsword looks badass ?

...

ah...

COUGH-HUM !!!

War's bad, mkay... ?

Serious comment : Well, things have been escalating for a while, since Georgia's nearing with the NATO and we all know how Russians don't liek the NATO...

And isn't Ossetia really small ?


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## zornedge (Aug 8, 2008)

I just read about this from reddit.  Kind of a shock, because Russia and USA has always upheld the peace treaty - but I admit I'm behind with Putin's regime.  Hell, I hear there's a new replacement for him.  

Reddit Headline:  Putin confirms Russia is at war....world distracted by Olympics
Source:  

Of course, it says nothing about the Olympics, but the very fact that Russia is invading will capture many eyes, but with the Olympics coming up, who knows if this crisis will be focused on at the immediate moment.


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

^Once again, Russia dun gone an' stole China's thundah!



T4R0K said:


> I don't like Russians. I just can't.
> 
> But damn ! I DO want to see them steamroll Georgia, 1945-style !!!! They are like, insane as space-marines on rampage trip !!!
> 
> WalkingMaelstrom, don't you agree a Russian soldier with a chainsword looks badass ?



I'd rather see an American soldier with a chainsword.   I'd more rather see an American soldier taking a chainsword to L's and Sasuke's faces.


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## T4R0K (Aug 8, 2008)

WalkingMaelstrom said:


> I'd rather see an American soldier with a chainsword.   I'd more rather see an American soldier taking a chainsword to L's and Sasuke's faces.



But... but... American soldiers in imagery are not as scary, insane and bloodthirsty for no reason, and they are not full of vodka and English isn't as terrifying as a rain of swears in a slavic language ! Like... 

I SEE ! Let's say Russians are Chaos ! 

*derailing the thread with WH40K*


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## impersonal (Aug 8, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> And isn't Ossetia really small ?



Yeah, it has got about 70,000 inhabitants.


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

i wonder how this fits in the ''great middle east project''


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Also, apparently according to some sources (not completely confirmed yet, if it is I'll post an article) 1,000 Ossetians have already died, out of a population of 75,000. If that's true, this could be very devastating to S. Ossetia, even if they do win independence/go back to Russia.


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## Toby (Aug 8, 2008)

Megaharrison said:


> ...
> What's most worrying is that Georgia has become a _major_ U.S. ally.



It has been known for ages. The US is the country which has trained the Georgian army and helped them maintain a decent force, probably because they border on Russia and because of the threat of devolution. Georgia has been entirely dependent on the Americans in this regard, so if the US does not respond soon the Russians might go overboard.

Personally, I can't believe this is happening. I always knew Russia had it in for Georgia, but this is almost pointless. the South Ossetians should have done this by a legal pursuit.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Though right now, the US is still in no shape to take any drastic measures, because unlike Iraq, Russia will not just idly stand by and do nothing.


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> But... but... American soldiers in imagery are not as scary, insane and bloodthirsty for no reason, and they are not full of vodka and English isn't as terrifying as a rain of swears in a slavic language ! Like...
> 
> I SEE ! Let's say Russians are Chaos !
> 
> *derailing the thread with WH40K*



MAIM! KILL! BURN! MAIM! KILL! BURN!

Seriously...nothing good is going to come from this and quite honestly all sides are stupid for escalating this so quickly and so highly.  What worries me more is how the US and China are going to react to this.  Either China will press on with its Olympics and do its best to preserve their thunder with a smile, or someone's going to be very grumpy at the next Security Council meeting.  The US...well I saw the candidates' responses to it on CNN, but they're not the POTUS yet and right now we've got enough on our plate.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Actually, Georgia claims that S. Ossetia shelled them. Yeah, like we haven't heard that before an invasion before. *As an interesting tidbit, Stalin used the same excuse to invade Finland*


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Actually, Georgia claims that S. Ossetia shelled them. Yeah, like we haven't heard that before an invasion before. *As an interesting tidbit, Stalin used the same excuse to invade Finland*



And Finland put up one hell of a fight until the armistices were signed.  Of course the Continuation War ended with a Soviet victory but at that time they were pushing back Germany as well so everyone sorta saw it coming.  Kinda strange how coincidental it could be.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

China is gonna tell everybody to STFU, or get invaded, if they mess with the games.


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## impersonal (Aug 8, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Also, apparently according to some sources (not completely confirmed yet, if it is I'll post an article) 1,000 Ossetians have already died, out of a population of 75,000. If that's true, *this could be very devastating to S. Ossetia*, even if they do win independence/go back to Russia.



I couldn't help but find it funny. "It's going to be very devastating for the 3 guys and 2 cows living there !". They're really fighting over nothing... And then motherf*cking Russia gets involved. It's like having a bear getting in the ring of one of those japanese bug fights.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

I really hope the US gets involved, even in our limited capacity we could still pwn any forces that are invading Georgia. Though I would prefer covert rather than overt assistance. The USA MUST defend its allies.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> I really hope the US gets involved, even in our limited capacity we could still pwn any forces that are invading Georgia. Though I would prefer covert rather than overt assistance. The USA MUST defend its allies.



The US can not always intervene to save its allies,all the time, that would be impossible.

This is not some 3rd world army, this is an army with nukes and the largest military in the world with equipment and planes nearly on par with the US, Russia is involved in this and they are no pushovers, plus this could be a pretty nasty scenario if Russia sees the US as impeding what should be between the countries involved. If anything US intervention will make things just a whole lot worse for everyone. Especially for Georgia if Russia overruns Georgia and thinks they requested assistance from the US, repercussions could be harsh, and also it is a declaration of war if US Soldiers actually killed Russian soldiers, which would cause a backlash, and going to war with Russia will seriously almost be signing off a death warrant, since we can not possible go to war against Russia in our current state.

Covert operations would be even more worse if in the worst case scenario, they get caught and fail the mission the political scandal and problems may be enormous.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> I really hope the US gets involved, even in our limited capacity we could still pwn any forces that are invading Georgia. Though I would prefer covert rather than overt assistance. The USA MUST defend its allies.



And go into war with Russia?


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> I really hope the US gets involved, even in our limited capacity we could still pwn any forces that are invading Georgia. Though I would prefer covert rather than overt assistance. The USA MUST defend its allies.



I appreciate your dedication...I seriously do, but right now we're in a bad geopolitical spot and while it's good to defend an ally, it is way too early to jump the gun and get involved.

al-Qaeda and the Taliban are one thing.  The Russian Army is a whole other beast not worth tackling, especially at this time.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

WalkingMaelstrom said:


> And Finland put up one hell of a fight until the armistices were signed.  Of course the Continuation War ended with a Soviet victory but at that time they were pushing back Germany as well so everyone sorta saw it coming.  Kinda strange how coincidental it could be.


Yeah. It's also funny that from the few Finns I've talked to, they aren't as opposed to this war as you'd imagine, probably because it strikes a nerve at their past. This war will be what the Winter War would have been if Churchill and Roosevelt didn't just sit around saying Finland is showing what a democracy can do and helped. I'm going to go shoot darts at a Churchill and Roosevelt picture now.


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## impersonal (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> I really hope the US gets involved, even in our limited capacity we could still pwn any forces that are invading Georgia. Though I would prefer covert rather than overt assistance. The USA MUST defend its allies.



Have you seen where Georgia is ? How will the US intervene there? Teleportation ?


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> I really hope the US gets involved, even in our limited capacity we could still pwn any forces that are invading Georgia. Though I would prefer covert rather than overt assistance. The USA MUST defend its allies.



Dude go back two pages and read the second link I posted, Georgia is purposely trying to piss of Russia so NATO will accept them. THEY started this war; they should be ready for the consequences. The US should stay out of this; or else it will fuel the accusations that NATO will accept anyone but Russia, even criminals. See 2004? acceptance of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia into NATO.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Well Russia lost in Afghhanistan why would not not be feasible for the USA and allies to make Georgia another "Vietnam" for Russia? I think its utter bullshit that a country puts its trust in us and wants to join our alliance and then not do _anything_

This is looking very bad for Georgia, we may have a new Russian province soon if the world does nothing.

Though I will add I doubt Russia will resort to nuclear weapon use iin this conflict.

As for how we would intervine air and missile strikes with Navy seals and Delta forces rendering covert assistance to Georgian forces. Also if we wanted to we could fly in a rapid reaction force....

I am sure our 688I subs would have no issues slipping through a blockade undetected to launch cruise missiles at Russian targets and then withdraw safely.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Well Russia lost in Afghhanistan why would not not be feasible for the USA and allies to make Georgia another "Vietnam" for Russia? I think its utter bullshit that a country puts its trust in us and wants to join our alliance and then not do _anything_
> 
> This is looking very bad for Georgia, we may have a new Russian province soon if the world does nothing.
> 
> Though I will add I doubt Russia will resort to nuclear weapon use iin this conflict.



You forget one thing, what will Russia do if the US intervenes for Georgia and kills Russian Troops? You think Russia is gonna stand for that? Hell no, this would finally give them the opportunity to start killing US soldiers, and right now the US must not get involved as we are in no shape to help out another country, bogged down in Iraq/Afghanistan, and also going to war with Russia will be almost suicide and just plain stupid. This however is not the US's or NATO's fight, this is between Georgia and Russia and any intervention will just make things worse, and i do not want to see war break out between the US and Russia.

Yeah we try and pull that shit WWIII will not be far away, and you do not think Russia has subs or planes? They have the largest Navy and Air Force and compared to the Taliban and Al-Qaida who were easy, Russia will be a giant beast. One thing Russia has is that it is not stupidly spending its money on the middle east allowing full concentration of Georgia, if the US stupidly pulls that kind of shit against Russia then it is signing a death warrant.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Something close to a timeline


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Well Russia lost in Afghhanistan why would not not be feasible for the USA and allies to make Georgia another "Vietnam" for Russia? I think its utter bullshit that a country puts its trust in us and wants to join our alliance and then not do _anything_
> 
> This is looking very bad for Georgia, we may have a new Russian province soon if the world does nothing.
> 
> ...



Ok this is not Ghost Recon and this is not Call of Duty 4.  It just cannot happen like that and expect no outlying consequences.  Afghanistan was something different because it was a conventional army (Russia) against unconventional mujahedeen (sp?).  Georgia's army is not a guerrilla army and once again given the geopolitical situation...pissing off Russia is the last thing we want to do.  If China starts having beef with Russia as well, then maybe the time for rapid reaction would be nice, but as for now?  Well we've still got those two big scenarios called Iraq and Afghanistan.

Could the US Army counter the Russian Army?  I think so.  Should they right now?  No.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> You forget one thing, what will Russia do if the US intervenes for Georgia and kills Russian Troops? You think Russia is gonna stand for that? Hell no, this would finally give them the opportunity to start killing US soldiers, and right now the US must not get involved as we are in no shape to help out another country, bogged down in Iraq/Afghanistan, and also going to war with Russia will be almost suicide and just plain stupid. This however is not the US's or NATO's fight, this is between Georgia and Russia and any intervention will just make things worse, and i do not want to see war break out between the US and Russia.
> 
> Yeah we try and pull that shit WWIII will not be far away, and you do not think Russia has subs or planes? They have the largest Navy and Air Force and compared to the Taliban and Al-Qaida who were easy, Russia will be a giant beast. One thing Russia has is that it is not stupidly spending its money on the middle east allowing full concentration of Georgia, if the US stupidly pulls that kind of shit against Russia then it is signing a death warrant.




You are OVERESTIMATING Russias capabilities... Look what a bunch of peasants in Afghanistan did to the "vaunted" russian military there is NO reason why the USA cannot repeat that preformance, especially if all we do is supply weapons and military advisors just like in Afghanistan. And Russia knew about that as well.

Never the less we must not let our "ally" be overrun by a wannabe superpower.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> *Well Russia lost in Afghhanistan why would not not be feasible for the USA and allies to make Georgia another "Vietnam" for Russia? I think its utter bullshit that a country puts its trust in us and wants to join our alliance and then not do anythingAs for how we would intervine air and missile strikes with Navy seals and Delta forces rendering covert assistance to Georgian forces. Also if we wanted to we could fly in a rapid reaction force....
> *
> *I am sure our 688I subs would have no issues slipping through a blockade undetected to launch cruise missiles at Russian targets and then withdraw safely.*



That was back in the 1980s times have changed dramatically especially in military since then to now.

Doing that shit = Declaration of War = Screwed US = WWIII=Millions will die, all because the US had to get involved in something that it should never have done, since it is not in the best shape to do that. Seriously even the US is not that stupid to take military action against Russia just to protect a small country, the price for that is something the US may not be able to pay in its current state.

That was back in the 1980's it has been a good 20+  years since then, you realize Russia has improved its technology? You realize only the Bering straight separates us from Russia. If you want the US to defend Georgia, then enlist as a mercenary or something, because i do not want the US to get involved and screw itself over. Please go to Georgia and fight for them if you feel the need to protect them, however don't expect the rest of the US to want to be involved in a war against Russia.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> You are OVERESTIMATING Russias capabilities... Look what a *bunch of peasants* in Afghanistan did to the "vaunted" russian military there is NO reason why the USA cannot repeat that preformance, especially if all we do is supply weapons and military advisors just like in Afghanistan. And Russia knew about that as well.



Peasants supplied with(pretty much) top US weaponry?


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Yea thats what I am saying. Thats what we should do in this case as well.


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## impersonal (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> You are OVERESTIMATING Russias capabilities... Look what a bunch of peasants in Afghanistan did to the "vaunted" russian military there is NO reason why the USA cannot repeat that preformance, especially if all we do is supply weapons and military advisors just like in Afghanistan. And Russia knew about that as well.
> 
> Never the less we must not let our "ally" be overrun by a wannabe superpower.


You live in a goddamn video game.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Hugo_Pratt said:


> You live in a goddamn video game.



Old videogames,in some of the new ones you have to think about consequences


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Seriously i can not believe someone here is actually advocating war with Russia. Over this small incident that needs to be faced by the parties involved and that has nothing to do with the US, who needs to back the fuck off and stand down as it neither concerns us in anyway, we can not always go be the hero and save our allies every time that is impossible.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

If our miltary even in its weakened state cannot handle this conflict here then the USA has no right to call itself a superpower...

I am not advocating knocking out the entire Russian war machine but we should easily be able to handle what they are sending into Georgia Besides I highly doubt even with USA intervention that it woiuld erupt into a massive WW3 senario. Again look at Afghanistan.

The one thing I am advocating is defending an ally that put its trust in us to keep Russia away. That does not mean war with Russia, though there maybe localised conflict I doubt it would spead, Russia is not that stupid. At the very least we will get to see if Russia's military is all that its cracked up to be.


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Hugo_Pratt said:


> You live in a goddamn video game.





Diceman said:


> Old videogames,in some of the new ones you have to think about consequences



Why do you think I'm responding saying that this is not Ghost Recon or Call of Duty 4? 

It's not.

Ok can the Naruto speech talk about helping friends and stuff like that.  He says that sort of crap in a fictional manga.  This is Planet Earth...the real world.  They don't have nuclear weaponry, submarines, and fucking missiles in the Naruverse but they God damn do here!


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> If our miltary even in its weakened state cannot handle this conflict here then the USA has no right to call itself a superpower...



Handle Russia in its weakened state?Ok,answer this
Explain what weakened state is.

You are grossly OVERESTIMATING the US' military power



WalkingMaelstrom said:


> Why do you think I responding saying that this is not Ghost Recon or Call of Duty 4?
> 
> It's not.


Comeo on,Tom Clancy games do teach a thing or two about consequences,when you arent shooting someone


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> If our miltary even in its weakened state cannot handle this conflict here then the USA has no right to call itself a superpower...



So basically just because you disagree with this conflict, that justfies US soldiers being killed in something that we should not get involved in? Seriously please go fight in Georgia yourself if you want to defend so freaking bad, though don't expect the US to just waltz in to help Georgia, if Georgia *indeed* started this war, then it must face the consequences of its decisions, they should have known how Russia might react.

Go to Georgia yourself to fight against Russia for all i care, however i will not stand by and watch the US waste manpower and resources on this small conflict that has nothing to do with us. They started it and they need to finish it, please get your head back to reality.

Superpower or not, the US can not just spend away money like nothing, part of being a world super power is knowing where you are needed and also where you should stay the fuck away and not get involved, the US has more important things to take care of at the mainland, knowing to stay out of other people's business.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

With Russia's record I bet _they_ started it.

Again Afghanistan is a case point the USA and Britian intervened and there was no major war. Why cant the USA and NATO do the same here?


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> With Russia's record I bet _they_ started it.


Ahhh the neocon omniscient viewpoint


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> With Russia's record I bet _they_ started it.
> 
> Again Afghanistan is a case point the USA and Britian intervened and there was no major war. Why cant the USA and NATO do the same here?



Different fight.  We were and still are fighting the Taliban who are still being a royal pain in the ass.  The Georgian Army is a standing army.  There was also no major war because the UN gave it the go ahead and not even China or Russia opposed it.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> With Russia's record I bet _they_ started it.
> 
> Again Afghanistan is a case point the USA and Britian intervened and there was no major war. Why cant the USA and NATO do the same here?


*
This is not the fucking Taliban or Al-Qaida with splintered military units and factions and civil fighting. *

There is a whole damn difference in scope/scale.

This is going against one of the biggest, highly equipped armies in the modern world. While Russia may not be considered a Superpower, compared to the Taliban, Russia is on a whole different level. Seriously Afghanistan could not even compare if war broke out between the US and Russia over a stupid conflict that the US neither has any attachment too, or need to intervene those parties need to sort it out themselves, and remember NATO is not stupid enough to wage war against Russia right now.'

FYI, Georgia is not even an official member of NATO so they really should not expect help from members who do not want war with Russia.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

So your saying that A fragmented Georgian military could not do the same thing? The Soviet Militray back then was MUCH bigger than it is now.

BTW I supposed I should clarify when I am talking about Afghanistan I am talking about the Soviet invasion of it. I should have been more clear. I was not reffering to the USA invasion which as you have stated IS a completely different scope and scale.

Basically what I am saying is that I think the USA And maybe England could replicate what they did in Afghanistan in the 1970s and 1980s in present day Georgia


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> So your saying that A fragmented Georgian military could not do the same thing? The Soviet Militray back then was MUCH bigger than it is now.
> 
> BTW I supposed I should clarify when I am talking about Afghanistan I am talking about the Soviet invasion of it. I should have been more clear.



You realize the soviet military also had pretty shitty weaponry as well. And the resistance was supplied with the latest US weapons and Intelligence.

That was back in the 80's seriously, times have fucking changed, the USSR is no more, and Russia knows it needs to modernize its equipment.

If the modern Russian Federation went to war with the former USSR, the USSR would get its ass royally kicked from here to the US by the more powerful modernized russian military.

*If you really feel the need to do something go enlist in a foreign army become a mercenary hell buy a gun and fly to Georgia, *though just because you disagree with it, does not give the US a right to intervene in a political and military matter that has nothing to do with it.

*Georgia is not even a part of NATO,* and they started this shit on their own and they need to finish it on their own. Seriously the US does not have to intervene they are not even our allies compared to europe.

*NATO and the US have no obligation to help bail Georgia out of the shit it created itself.*


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Afghanistan never erupted into WW3 because the US hid it's ass for the most part, and used underhanded deals to supply the Afghan rebels. Not very easy to do here, since we currently have 130 troops over there training their army, very easy to trace.

Also, Russia didn't start this war. Georgia killed 10 Russian peacekeepers when they invaded the area, prompting Russia to invade in return to turn back the Georgians. They have no intention of conquering Georgia either, they want S. Ossetia given back to them. If the US gets involved, it will not be good for us. This is a regional conflict that should be left to it's own accords.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

So your saying that the T-72 and other shitty weaponry they are sending in now has somehow changed? I have not seen any T-80s or T-90s roling into Georgia 

@Sexta That was a good responce...

Someone let me know when they start sending in the Mi-24HindE's and Mi-28s _those_ are more high end military equipments.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> So your saying that the T-72 and other shitty weaponry they are sending in now has somehow changed? I have not seen any T-80s or T-90s roling into Georgia
> 
> @Sexta That was a good responce...



There /thread, i am basically now just stating what Sexta already posted seriously, the sheer stupidity of the idea of starting a war with Russia while the US is bogged down with other crap is astounding. 



Now Russia is getting serious with this, with mechanized brigades now.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Why would you assume if the US did anything that a full blown war would start? Especially if the USA hid itself well. Though as Sexta stated this currently is not possible since the Russians know that we have troops there already.

If Georgia started this war then I would agree that they need to finish it but I HIGHLY doubt Georgia would deliberatly start a war with Russia. If they did then they are dumbfucks.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Actually the T-72 stock of Russia has been updated to the T-90 standard. So basically, Russia's using the T-72s because they need to show that they're serious, however that they're not as serious as to say invade other parts of Georgia as well.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> *Why would you assume if the US did anything that a full blown war would start?* Especially if the USA hid itself well. Though as Sexta stated this currently is not possible since the Russians know that we have troops there already.
> 
> *If Georgia started this war then I would agree that they need to finish it but I HIGHLY doubt Georgia would deliberatly start a war with Russia. If they did then they are dumbfucks*.


Killing another countries soldiers = Declaration of War, you think Russia would just stand idly by twidling its thumbs?

Either way this shit they need to sort out on their own, without the help of anyone else.

Please tell me what the US has to gain by getting involved in another useless conflict?


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Well what we would gain: We would gain a new ally. (we killed Russian troops in Afghanistan and Russia just sat their as well) Though their military is modernized I would predict the same result.

We would also put Russia in its place. They keep acting like a superpower even though they lost the cold war, this would just reinforce that. Especially if they lost to a much smaller country.

Also you say that they need to sort this out on their own? Then Russia needs to withdraw its troops as well.

Also why do you think that just supplying weapons would cause Russia to go to war with us? We would not be killing anyone, just supplying the materials to the combating party. Likme in Africa, Afghanistan and I am sure other places as well.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Well what we would gain:* We would gain a new ally. *(we killed Russian troops in Afghanistan and Russia just sat their as well) Though their military is modernized I would predict the same result.
> 
> We would also put Russia in its place. They keep acting like a superpower even though they lost the cold war, this would just reinforce that. Especially if they lost to a much smaller country.
> 
> Also you say that they need to sort this out on their own? *Then Russia needs to withdraw its troops as well.*




, why the hell would the US want an ally that can't finish the shit it starts out on its own? Georgia has nothing to offer us, their military is sub-standard, their country has nothing of value. The trade off for intervening is just fallacy, the US could care less about gaining Georgia as an ally.

Honestly the US was okay without Georgia and this time is not different.

Georgia started this on their own and Russia is ending it themselves to Russia has no obligation to withdraw its troops when Georgia spilled first blood.

I bet your also one of those Americans who supported the war in Iraq.

Stop posting strawmans please, you are just wasting our time, living in a fantasy world that will never happen. 

Yeah we waste money and manpower and in exchange we get a ruined country that can't handle its own shit. Oh yeah very good trade off.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Yes I support Iraq and we are winning there as well.

@Sexta You mean the Russian are only entering the seperatist regions? Not an all out invasion? If so that thats much different.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, Georgia invaded S. Ossetia after a "shelling" and then killed 10 Russian peacekeepers, and in response Russia went into the separatist regions. They haven't invaded Georgia proper yet.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> *Yes I support Iraq and we are winning there as well.*
> 
> @Sexta You mean the Russian are only entering the seperatist regions? Not an all out invasion? If so that thats much different.



 oh yes we are winning and yet this shit is still happening.

GO join the army and go to Iraq, if you still support it and believe we are wining. Go to Georgia and help Georgia fight against Russia. Seriously this is one thing that US should and will not get involved with.


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## Surreal (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Well what we would gain: We would gain a new ally. (we killed Russian troops in Afghanistan and Russia just sat their as well) Though their military is modernized I would predict the same result.
> 
> We would also put Russia in its place. They keep acting like a superpower even though they lost the cold war, this would just reinforce that. Especially if they lost to a much smaller country.
> 
> ...



Nothing like a global war to put Russia in it's place and lets not forget Georgia is obviously a vital country considering it's resources, highly trained and powerful military and her economical value. Obviously a place well worth defending in this REGIONAL conflict.

You have either played way too much video games or live in a fantasy world where actions don't have consequences. In the last few years Russia has been flexing it's muscles trying to show they are powerful again and that they won't take shit from anyone or anything. 

But now they are supposed to stand idly as US troops intervene on opposite side in a regional conflict? Killing their soldiers? 

Stop mentioning something that ended 20 years ago. Different time, different governments, different presidents, different geopolitical structure, different armies, different location, the very definition of the conflict is vastly different. You could have pull another example....like...something from the 16th century. Would be just as relevant to this situation as your Afghanistan example. 

Go play some more Ghost Recon, go read some more Tom Clancy novels and stay in your fantasy world where everything is nice, clean, simple and completely unrealistic.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

LOL fine we will just let Russia do what _it_ wants fine. Way to tshow the world that the USA can be trusted.

So you are all saying that no one should do anthing and let Russia invade its neighbors country? It seems like the Soviet Union will be reborn after all. So much for defending democracy...


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> LOL fine we will just let Russia do what _it_ wants fine. Way to tshow the world that the USA can be trusted.



That Russian territory, and Russia business USA has no right to intervene on a sovereign nation.

 no one trusts us right now, nearly every country hates us. Or are you dense to that reality as well?

Please GTFO cafe and play your damn video games because your unrealistic fallacy argument just prove the stereotype that all americans are dumb warmongering selfish assholes.

Congrats on becoming the typical american.

"defending democracy?"  this is just a fight between 2 stupid nations over a territory smaller than Oklahoma.


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## Surreal (Aug 8, 2008)

> LOL fine we will just let Russia do what _it_ wants fine. Way to tshow the world that the USA can be trusted.
> 
> So you are all saying that no one should do anthing and let Russia invade its neighbors country? It seems like the Soviet Union will be reborn after all.


LOL fine we will just let US do what _it _wants fine. Way to show the world we are not waging wars out of interest. 

So you are all saying that no one should do anything and let US invade countries over seas?

Edit; 

In case you are too dense; stop being a god damn hypocrite. America is invading foreign territories to protect their interest and Russia is sending her army to intervene in a region inhabited mostly with Russian citizens that WANT TO JOIN RUSSIA ON THEIR OWN FOR EVER 15 YEARS ALREADY. And they didn't even attack first.

By your logic China and Russia should intervene if US ever decides to attack Iran, since they defending them in the UN as it is. By your logic, thats perfectly justifiable.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> LOL fine we will just let Russia do what _it_ wants fine. Way to tshow the world that the USA can be trusted.
> 
> So you are all saying that no one should do anthing and let Russia invade its neighbors country? It seems like the Soviet Union will be reborn after all. So much for defending democracy...


USA is the world police now?
Seriously,this is between Georgia and Russia.Get off the kool-aid will ya


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Iraq had it coming along with Afghanistan. Georgia didnot have it coming unless it truly fired the first shot. And then Russia should have stayed out since this was an internal affair.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> What ever I am expressing my opion that the USA should do something. I gave examples of successfull instances in the past where we have gotten involved.



The Technology, Political, Military, and economic, presidential policies are the same 20 years ago as today. 

Your strawmans are made of fail.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> The Technology, Political, Military, and economic, presidential policies are the same 20 years ago as today.
> 
> Your *strawmans* are made of fail.



Its not technically a strawman,more of a red herring really.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

??? excuse me Russia is a lot _weaker_ than it was 20 years ago. They have not modernized their entire military but are making progress, they are still 10 years behind the west.

Presidential polices remain the same LOL just look at Bush.  Something never change

As it stands all of you will get your wish the USa and NATO will do nothing *Not even supplying weapons* a decomcratic country will be back under Russia's jackboots....


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## T4R0K (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> Please GTFO cafe and play your damn video games because your unrealistic fallacy argument just prove the stereotype that all americans are dumb warmongering selfish assholes.
> 
> Congrats on becoming the typical american.
> 
> "defending democracy?"  this is just a fight between 2 stupid nations over a territory smaller than Oklahoma.



He's so persistant, I think he wants to look stereotypically stupid on purpose. I mean, anyone having cognitive capabilities would rethink their positions after exchanging ideas in a forum, but he doesn't budge.

Yeah, Russia is playing bully on a smaller state, but fuck, did he look at the whole picture ?! 

WE ALL GUNNA DIE IF A SINGLE US BULLET TAKES OUT A RUSSIAN ! 

You like nuclear exchanges over small stuff ? DID YOU EVER TRY TO READ OR UNDERSTAND GEOPOILITICS AND CONSEQUENCES ? ARE JUST A CHILD LIVING IN A "LALA-HAPPY LAND" WORLD ? 

FUCK ! Makes me wanna see a Canadian Province try to split up to join the US and read you advocating US invasion of Canada, so some Russian would come and say "OMG !! RUSSIA MUST HELP CANADA AGAINST THE US !!!"

*THAT'S JUST AT THAT LEVEL OF STUPID !!!*

AND YES ! IT WAS AD HOMINEM ! I DON'T CARE ????????!!!!!!


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> *Iraq had it coming along with Afghanistan. *Georgia didnot have it coming unless it truly fired the first shot. And then Russia should have stayed out since this was an internal affair.



Please...tell me you are joking 

As everyone has stated this is something between *Georgia and Russia and no one else.*

yeah, you are entitled to your opinion however, your opinion ignores reality and only makes sense in a fantasy world where you do something and the repercussions are non-existent.

@T4ROK - You aim that at me or him?


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## Surreal (Aug 8, 2008)

> FUCK ! Makes me wanna see a Canadian Province try to split up to join the US and read you advocating US invasion of Canada, so some Russian would come and say "OMG !! RUSSIA MUST HELP CANADA AGAINST THE US !!!"


This is actually not such a bad of an example. Would be kinda hilarious tho, a part of Canada wants to join the US, Canada launches the attack on it, US defends it and in comes the drunken Russians to defend the Canadians 

CANADA IS OUR ALLY, LAY OFF BITCHES

Ridiculous, isn't it Tleilaxu? ;]


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

OK then what will Russia do then Altron?

@Surreal that IS funny though I doubt the USA would so anything in that instance either 

Actually this matter is between the legitiment government of Georgia and the seperatists Russia has NO RIGHT to be there.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Ignoring BI's twin sister....
According to some sources,Ukraine is urging Russia to pull back.This not yet confirmed though.


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## T4R0K (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> @T4ROK - You aim that at me or him?



The will of the Machine-God makes my aim target him. *stuck in 40K world because of too much wine. Well, only 1 glass. I'm a weak drinker*


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> OK then what will Russia do then Altron?



Take care of its own damn business, like any other self respecting nation would do and not let the intentional killing of its own soldiers go un punished.

This is between Georgia and Russia and no one else, 2 countries who need to solve this on their own or else they should not be called countries.


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## Surreal (Aug 8, 2008)

> @Surreal that IS funny though I doubt the USA would so anything in that instance either



US wouldn't defend it's citizens? Interesting

You know, they ARE Russian citizens, 90% of people in South Ossetia. I'm done with you^^


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Ok then answer this one how would GIVING weapons to one side constitute the inernational killing of their troops? Its not like a USA troop was pulling the trigger.



> FUCK ! Makes me wanna see a Canadian Province try to split up to join the US and read you advocating US invasion of Canada, so some Russian would come and say "OMG !! RUSSIA MUST HELP CANADA AGAINST THE US !!!"





> US wouldn't defend it's citizens? Interesting
> 
> You know, they ARE Russian citizens, 90% of people in South Ossetia. I'm done with you^^



How does this ivolve defending American citizens Surreal? So your saying that if a bunch off USA citizens lived in a part of Canada want to cede and jion the USA this would be allowed? The world does not work that way. If they want to be part of their home country then they need to move back to the USA not bring the USA to them.

Yes their ARE Russian citizens living in Georgia does this justfy taking a chunk out of that country because another countries citizens are living there?


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> *Ok then answer this one how would GIVING weapons to one side constitute the inernational killing of their troops? Its not like a USA troop was pulling the trigger.*



Why the must the USA get involved into something that does not even concern it in any way shape or form? Why the hell must the US waste more money, manpower to intervene in a small regional conflict where it has no business in the 1st place, what will the US gain besides more US soldiers dying and pissing off Russia and basically becoming the world police everyone accuses the US of? The Trade off is something no person with a brain would do.


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## Mael (Aug 8, 2008)

Diceman said:


> Ignoring BI's twin sister....
> According to some sources,Ukraine is urging Russia to pull back.This not yet confirmed though.



Wait a second...the same Ukraine that has been under almost extortion-level pressure (which includes oil/gas pipelines and supplying) from Russia to not even consider the EU/NATO?  The same Ukraine which had it's pro-Western Viktor Yushchenko possibly poisoned by the Russians during the Orange Revolution?

I don't know how effective they'll be with a country that likes to strong-arm them whenever they get the chance.


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## Trov (Aug 8, 2008)

I've been hearing this all day, so I've been wondering what many of the Europeans here thought of this. I'm more likely to side with the Republic here. But since I don't know as much about the situation, My mind is open to changes.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

> Why the must the USA get involved into something that does not even concern it in any way shape or form? Why the hell must the US waste more money, manpower to intervene in a small regional conflict where it has no business in the 1st place, what will the US gain besides more US soldiers dying and pissing off Russia and basically becoming the world police everyone accuses the US of? The Trade off is something no person with a brain would do.



We did this in Afghanistan. Yes the times HAVE changed as you pointed out, the main reason if I recall correctly was to cause Russia a major pain in the ass like they did to us in Vietnam.

Supplying weapons does not require troops on the ground. 

Why not do it again to further keep Russia in its place? It is clearly trying to spread its influnce firther and further. Ukraine is a prime example of Russia trying to further its influnce.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> We did this in Afghanistan. Yes the times HAVE changed as you pointed out, the main reason if I recall correctly was to cause Russia a major pain in the ass like they did to us in Vietnam.
> 
> Supplying weapons does not require *troops on the ground. *
> 
> Why not do it again to further keep Russia in its place? *It is clearly trying to spread its influnce firther and further*. Ukraine is a prime example of Russia trying to further its influnce.



You have troops on the ground though.130 US troops to be more exact.

As is the US,every country has a right to do that.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> We did this in Afghanistan. Yes the times HAVE changed as you pointed out, the main reason if I recall correctly was to cause Russia a major pain in the ass like they did to us in Vietnam.
> 
> Supplying weapons does not require troops on the ground.
> 
> *Why not do it again to further keep Russia in its place? *It is clearly trying to spread its influnce firther and further. Ukraine is a prime example of Russia trying to further its influnce.



Last time i checked Russia did not bomb or kill any US troops. Why should the US intervene when nothing was done in the first place, why should we waste money, for some regional conflict that neither involves us or anyone else besides Russia and Georgia? Russia so far has only proven to avenge the wrongful deaths of its soldiers and protect its sovereignty which every country is entitled too and the US has no right to violate that right and do anything to cause WWIII.


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## CrazyMoronX (Aug 8, 2008)

Georgia is a redneck state. I think we should let Russia have it.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Yes they are their to train the Military its likely they will be removed shortly.



> *Last time i checked Russia did not bomb or kill any US troops.*




Their weapons did. Russia routinely sold thew NVA and Viet cong weapons.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

You are the prime example why everyone hates the arrogant USA, and all its citizens. Seriously stop living a damn fantasy world. 

They need to do this shit on their own and if they destroy each other then it is no ones fault but theirs, however Russia has a right to punish Georgia if it started the conflict.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

What do you mean? I am stating a fact that Russia supplied the NVA with weapons and the USA did likewise in afghanistan.

Now Russia is invading a country on the pretext of defending its citizens...

If Georgia started this conflict then *you would be correct* in the fact that Russia has the right to punish Georgia, every nation has the right to defend itself, however I do not believe for one bit that Georgia fired the first shot.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Their weapons did. Russia routinely sold thew NVA and Viet cong weapons.


And US routinely sold the Mujadeen weapons.Turnabout,you cant be that blind.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

China gave the NVA weapons too, so let's start some crap with them too.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

> What do you mean? I am stating a fact that Russia supplied the NVA with weapons *and the USA did likewise in afghanistan*.



I believe I said that...

@Sexta you are correct and I bet we may start some crap if they invade Taiwan.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Why would they invade Taiwan? They have enough protesters against them, the last thing they need is to bring that up again.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Yes they are their to train the Military its likely they will be removed shortly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was nearly 40+ years ago, stop living in the fucking past. It has no meaning right now. And we sold weapons to South Vietnam



Tleilaxu said:


> What do you mean? I am stating a fact that Russia supplied the NVA with weapons and the USA did likewise in afghanistan.
> 
> Now Russia is invading a country on the pretext of defending its citizens...
> 
> If Georgia started this conflict then *you would be correct* in the fact that Russia has the right to punish Georgia, every nation has the right to defend itself, however I do not believe for one bit that Georgia fired the first shot.



Georgia spilled first blood, they bombed South Ossetia and killed russian peacekeepers, that is fact, Russia has the right to avenge those wrongful deaths. 

I am sick of talking to someone who refuses to ignore reality and chooses to live in a damn fantasy world.

Hint: Give the past a fucking rest, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, Soviet-Afghan war has no precedence or relevance here, and stop posting off topic and strawmans.

@Diceman - yep that is true as well.

@Tleilaxu -Now you want to start shit with China too?


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> Hint: Give the past a fucking rest, Vietnam, Korea, WWII, Soviet-Afghan war has no precedence or relevance here, and stop posting off topic and strawmans.
> 
> @Diceman - yep that is true as well.



Given the fact that the only Russian vs US encounters were through proxy wars,Russia as much of a right to invade as the US.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Politics do NOT change. Stuff like this and covert actions aginst other nations always will contiune the past examples I have given can equally be applied in the present time.

Time will tell if Russia is justifed in the action.



> Given the fact that the only Russian vs US encounters were through proxy wars,Russia as much of a right to invade as the US.



So your saying Georgia is part of Russia?


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Diceman said:


> Given the fact that the only Russian vs US encounters were through proxy wars,Russia as much of a right to invade as the US.



that was not aimed at you And yes i agree with you.

@Tleilaxu - Different time period = different presidents = different politics.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

I know I know,bad quoting,my bad.Was aimed at Tleilaxu.


Oh,and:In b4 BI


----------



## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Diceman said:


> I know I know,bad quoting,my bad.Was aimed at Tleilaxu.
> 
> 
> Oh,and:In b4 BI



Now Tleilaxu wants to start shit with China too apparently, refer to the post about 2-3 above mine


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Altron said:


> that was not aimed at you And yes i agree with you.
> 
> @Tleilaxu - Different time period = different presidents = different politics.



Ah yes because politics really have changed over time you know looking out for your countries insterests is really a new thing.... Unless I am quite mistaken countries have been looking out for their interestes diplomatically or otherwise since the dawn of time.


----------



## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Ah yes because politics really have changed over time you know looking out for your countries insterests is really a new thing.... *Unless I am quite mistaken countries have been looking out for their interestes diplomatically or otherwise since the dawn of time.*



 you just killed your own argument right now. 

Russia is looking to protect its interest namely avenging the wrongful death of its troops. Russia and Georgia are countries though Russia has a right to protect its interests and they need to sort it out themselves.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

No I did not I said politics do not change. What you quoted was my justification of that remark.

My argument was that the USA should do something since I believe that its in OUR interests to keep Russia checked.

Just how many troops were killed? I believe the USA lost a lot of Troops in Lebenon and we did not go to war with them.... (Yea its the past I know)


----------



## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> No I did not I said politics do not change. What you quoted was my justification of that remark.
> 
> *My argument was that the USA should do something since I believe that its in OUR interests to keep Russia checked.*



Your arguments suck and your beliefs and opinion ignore reality. The fact that you still justify the Iraq war, proves your credibility is worthless.

Russia is its own country why should we check up on it? It has a right to take care of its own affairs.
*
What country is next on your vendetta list? China? Korea? Japan? Italy? France? UK? Germany?Finland? Poland?Israel?Czech Republic?Canada?Mexico?Chile?Peru? Come on don't keep us in suspense.*

I am done talking to an idiot and wasting my time.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Then by your argument we have the right to be in Iraq and Afghanistan since we are defending our interests. Does the USA not have the right to take care of its affairs?

As for those other countries most are our ally so I have no issues with them LOL

We are getting off topic whats happened now?


----------



## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> *Then by your argument we have the right to be in Iraq and Afghanistan since we are defending our interests. *Does the USA not have the right to take care of its affairs?
> 
> As for those other countries most are our ally so I have no issues with them LOL
> 
> We are getting off topic whats happened now?





Tleilaxu said:


> *Yes I support Iraq and we are winning there as well.*


  , I never said we had the right to be in iraq you said that yourself 

Yeah we have a right to take care of our affairs, however that does not include violating other countries territorial rights and meddling in their affairs. In fact i won't be surprised if Russia tells the USA to "STFU and Fuck Off" about the Russian-Georgian Conflict.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

> Yeah we have a right to take care of our affairs, however that does not include violating other countries territorial rights and meddling in their affairs.



And just what exactly is Russia doing now?  This is an internal affair between Georgia and the seperatists Russia just decided to butt in. I believe you just shot yourself in the foot this time 

Russia is most certainly violating Gerogia's territorial rights. AND meddling in their affairs.


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> And just what exactly is Russia doing now  This is an internal affair between Georgia and the seperatists Russia just decided to butt in. I believe you just shot yourself in the foot this time



Georgia shelled Ossetia, killed Russian Peacekeepers. Are you that stupid? oh yeah another country killing your soldiers, and it is not your business? Russian troops are dead, so it became Russia's affair and no Georgia is gonna pay for the consequences of its actions.

The moment another country kills foreign troops, the country that sent those troops are now involved.

Or does your fantasy land, say otherwise, while ignoring reality.

You still fail now GTFO of the cafe.

The moment Georgia killed foreign soldiers, is the moment they gave up their rights, and justifies Russian action against them.


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## UtahCrip (Aug 8, 2008)

fucc russia. i'd like to see em try that shit with utah. we dont play dat bullshit.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

LOL we had peacekeeprs in Lebenon and we did not go to war with them. Having those "peackeepers" is also meddling in an a countries affair as well.  so your point is voided. 

Edit: Well if the UN aprroved the peackeepers than I must retract part of that above statement.(which I just deleted)

So what if 10 people died its not enough to start a war over. If I recall correctly 84 peacekeepers died in Lebenon. So by your logic we had the right to invade them.


----------



## Nemesis (Aug 8, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Actually, Georgia claims that S. Ossetia shelled them. Yeah, like we haven't heard that before an invasion before. *As an interesting tidbit, Stalin used the same excuse to invade Finland*



Ironically Stalin WAS Georgian lol



			
				Tleilaxu said:
			
		

> Actually this matter is between the legitiment government of Georgia and the seperatists Russia has NO RIGHT to be there.



Well *UN* backed Russian peace keepers were allowed in there.  BUT they were *ATTACKED* by the Georgian Military giving Russia a Green light to go in full force.  Georgia Declared war on Russia NOT the other way around and basically have brought this all on themselves.

This is Georgia's mess.  They started it and it looks like they are going to get their asses handed to them by Russia, south Ossetia with north Ossetia (Same people as the south Ossetians but is within Russia) and Abkhazia (another area of Georgia which is desperate to get out) sending volunteers to help out.  

Hell Abkhazia has said if Georgia goes too far it will activate it's mutual defense alliance with SO and attack Georgia to become Independent.  For Georgia gamble Failed.


----------



## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Nemesis said:


> Ironically Stalin WAS Georgian lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn, i wish i could rep you for that.

Someone can take over, proving Tleilaxu is nothing more than a warmongering idiot. I am tired of talking to the stupidest brick wall in existence.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

Looks like Georgia is strengthening their forces at th Abkhazian border


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## Altron (Aug 8, 2008)

Diceman said:


> Looks like Georgia is strengthening their forces at th Abkhazian border



Fighting on multiple fronts?


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

This will be interesting. Fighting on multiple fronts is not a smart tactic....

From Interfax



> 21:27 TV says Russian warplanes have bombed Georgian port


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

Bush says mission accomplished


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## Coteaz (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm truly apathetic to the situation. From all accounts I've read, Georgia started the conflict, so...yeah. Their mess.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

21:42 	S. Ossetia says all Georgian forces driven out of Tskhinvali

22:00  	Strategic, govt facilities being evacuated from Tbilisi


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

LOL Georgia anti doing so well....


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

Nemesis said:


> Ironically Stalin WAS Georgian lol


I was gonna say it must be a Georgian trait to accuse a nation of shelling them and then invading, but I decided it wouldn't be as funny because there's no Georgians on the board, so it wouldn't piss anyone off


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## AbnormallyNormal (Aug 8, 2008)

poor georgia

all they wanted to do was get control of their own country but the big bully russia wont let them do it for some reason, choosing olympics to avoid international condemnation


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## Nemesis (Aug 8, 2008)

Considering it was Georgia that attacked Russian UN Authorized peace keepers it should be Georgia that needs to be condemned not Russia in this case.   Also killing of Russian Citizens don't help either.


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

An Su-25 Frogfoot bombs Georgian targets.

Apparently fighting is now spreading acroos Georgia.


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## Raiden (Aug 8, 2008)

Anyone know the death toll so far?


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)

Both sides claim high casualities but that typical of such situations.

I believe there are confirmed 13 dead Peacekeepers and three Georians but that was SEVERAL hours ago.


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## Purgatory (Aug 8, 2008)

This is Georgia's problem, no one else's. The US has no right to stick their nose up any other country's ass to intervene, especially since we're in no position to assist such a minute country. We've already become a part of a present unjustifiable conflict with Iraq (Hope to God Iran isn't next, even with the douchebag of a president Iran has). Our economy couldn't be any worse, we're already loathed by other countries, and to provoke ever increasing tensions with Russia is just asking for Part 2 of the Cuban Missile Crisis. If anyone thinks we're liable to get into another war, they need to get a lobotomy. The LAST thing we need is a pissed off Russia pointing its anger towards America.


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## niyesuH (Aug 8, 2008)

Nemesis said:


> Considering it was Georgia that attacked Russian UN Authorized peace keepers it should be Georgia that needs to be condemned not Russia in this case.   Also killing of Russian Citizens don't help either.



Russia supporting the independence of Ossetia and at the same time condemning Kosovo shows who is the one playing politics here.. Georgia is just protecting its national sovereignty


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## Jin-E (Aug 8, 2008)

Diceman said:


> 21:42 	S. Ossetia says all Georgian forces driven out of Tskhinvali
> 
> 22:00  	Strategic, govt facilities being evacuated from Tbilisi



Stalin would roll in his grave


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

But Kosovo is Serbian land, or at least it was in the past. S. Ossetia, for those of you who don't know, was part of Russia till Khrushchev decided to give it to Georgia. So it's perfectly reasonable to support giving S. Ossetia back to Russia (while everybody seems to say independence, from what I can gather the real plan is to give it back to Russia. Technically, I guess that needs independence first, because you can't decide what to do with another country's land like that, but I digress). Also, Kosovo Independence is rooted in Muslim extremism, so that's another reason not to support it. See Greater Albania and the KLA.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> Russia supporting the independence of Ossetia and at the same time condemning Kosovo shows who is the one playing politics here.. Georgia is just protecting its national sovereignty



They should've thought of that when they attacked UN sactioned Russian peacekeepers.They forced Russia's hand and now they're paying for it.


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## Xion (Aug 8, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> I was gonna say it must be a Georgian trait to accuse a nation of shelling them and then invading, but I decided it wouldn't be as funny because there's no Georgians on the board, so it wouldn't piss anyone off



Unlike you I am only a quarter Russian, but I don't feel much sympathy towards Russia. 

They are basically doing an Israel right now against Lebanon Georgia.

I had heard "Georgia started it" but South Ossetia is pretty much internationally recognized as part of Georgia is it not? 

Too bad the beautiful Caucasus is one of the most dangerous places in the world between Chechnya, Abkhazia, North and South Ossetia, and Dagestan.


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

The Killing blow:
23:56  	Russian envoy: Georgia should apologize for civilian deaths


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## AbnormallyNormal (Aug 8, 2008)

is there even much combat going on? fromm what i heard on USA television, it was more propaganda and stuff than real fighting. just a few bombs that didnt really kill anybody


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## Tleilaxu (Aug 8, 2008)




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## Purgatory (Aug 8, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> is there even much combat going on? fromm what i heard on USA television, it was more propaganda and stuff than real fighting. just a few bombs that didnt really kill anybody



Don't watch mainstream media, they're full of shit and trying to veil what is really happening.


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## Rikudou (Aug 8, 2008)

Painkiller said:


> This is Georgia's problem, no one else's. The US has no right to stick their nose up any other country's ass to intervene, especially since we're in no position to assist such a minute country. We've already become a part of a present unjustifiable conflict with Iraq (Hope to God Iran isn't next, even with the douchebag of a president Iran has). Our economy couldn't be any worse, we're already loathed by other countries, and to provoke ever increasing tensions with Russia is just asking for Part 2 of the Cuban Missile Crisis. If anyone thinks we're liable to get into another war, they need to get a lobotomy. The LAST thing we need is a pissed off Russia pointing its anger towards America.



Actually they would be loved again if they helped the Georgians.
You wouldn't understand. You're American. You don't have any clue as to what causes people to like you or dislike you. Ask the European guy! 
No one likes Russians. Only Russian women are liked. VERY much... 

Yeaaaahhhhhh.... I like Russian women... VERY much...


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 8, 2008)

Rikudou said:


> Actually they would be loved again if they helped the Georgians.
> You wouldn't understand. You're American. You don't have any clue as to what causes people to like you or dislike you. Ask the European guy!
> No one likes Russians. Only Russian women are liked. VERY much...
> 
> Yeaaaahhhhhh.... I like Russian women... VERY much...



Have you forgotten what we're doing? We're killing innocent bystanders, claiming them as "terrorists". I wouldn't be surprised if the entire God Damned Middle East wanted to blow us to smithereens.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> Unlike you I am only a quarter Russian, but I don't feel much sympathy towards Russia.


Actually I'm only a quarter Russian too, the Finnish side of me would normally dictate that Russia=bad, but in this case Finland isn't involved, so the Russian side takes over 


But really, being Russian has nothing to do with the fact that Russia has moral standing in this war.


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## Simulacrum (Aug 8, 2008)

I've waited a while before commenting on this, but I still can't find reliable proof as to who is the instigating party here. Both sides accuse the other, which is hardly proof of anything. All I have is what I can make out of this fog. 

Despite that, this whole situation smacks of USSR to me. Russian tanks began rolling out only hours after the conflict started. That armor moved too fast for them to not have been ready and waiting for this to happen. I have my doubts that Georgia would start this, at least not at this time when their biggest supporter - the USA - is spending its military power elsewhere, and they want to become part of NATO and being caught up in this conflict will be another roadblock for them to that end, while Russia doesn't want them to join NATO and they've been long supporters of the separatists. 

If there's any time for Russia to force Georgia into open war then right now would be the perfect time for it, because the Iraq war is coming to a rapid close and Georgia's big ally is about to start recovering its spent power in the next year or two.


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## Rikudou (Aug 8, 2008)

Painkiller said:


> Have you forgotten what we're doing? We're killing innocent bystanders, claiming them as "terrorists". I wouldn't be surprised if the entire God Damned Middle East wanted to blow us to smithereens.



You'd be surprised as to how short nations' memories can get. 
All it has always taken is simply a new president in a new term.

There was a very funny South Park episode on this which implied that Democrats were merely a Republican conspiracy to make up for all their fuck-ups.

First they win the election to fuck up the world to get what they want, then they 'elect' a democrat to make the world forgive them and love them again.

There is some truth in this, considering that, were Obama chosen, many Europeans would want to cooperate with the US again.

It's all about proggressivity. Europeans are more progressive than Republicans, while Democrats are like Europeans. They see the bigger picture in the world.

Trust me, I live here and talk to the people. Everybody is entousiastic as fuck when the topic is Obama.


----------



## batanga (Aug 8, 2008)

Is it just me or does this war sound pointless to you guys?


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## Tomoya (Aug 8, 2008)

I can't believe they're doing this with the Olympics ongoing. They're just disrupting world peace, I hope this gets settled soon.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 8, 2008)

And Georgia pulls its 2000 troops from Iraq right before this isn't enough of a "I'm gonna start a war" sign. Russian military units have probably been on alert since Russia first told Georgia to cut it out last week.


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## Rikudou (Aug 8, 2008)

Itsuki said:


> I can't believe they're doing this with the Olympics ongoing. They're just disrupting world peace, I hope this gets settled soon.



Dude... Are you fucking serious?

WHAT THE FUCK WORLD-PEACE ARE WE TALKIN ABOUT? WHERE?!

World-peace is a legend a myth.
THIS IS PLANET EARTH!!! 

Holding the Olympics in China was one of the most hypocritical, but above all, by far the most Ironic event imaginable...


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 8, 2008)

batanga said:


> Is it just me or does this war sound pointless to you guys?



meh,at least this time we have the olympics to keep us occupied


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## Tomoya (Aug 8, 2008)

Okay, I'll put it this way. They're destroying what the Olympics is intended to do.


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## Purgatory (Aug 8, 2008)

batanga said:


> Is it just me or does this war sound pointless to you guys?



About as pointless was the Iraq War.


----------



## Xion (Aug 9, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Actually I'm only a quarter Russian too, the Finnish side of me would normally dictate that Russia=bad, but in this case Finland isn't involved, so the Russian side takes over



I have no hate towards Russia just the way it is turning out. It seems to be in a state of regression under Putin and his puppet leader.

I would love to visit Russia and especially the Caucasus, but going there now is hardly a good idea unless I want to be killed. Especially if I reveal I am a quarter Russian in Chechyna. 

I would be cut into quarters. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> But really, being Russian has nothing to do with the fact that Russia has moral standing in this war.




"Russia" and "moral" should never be in the same sentence.

While I admit that the former Soviet state relations issue is very complex, I cannot help but see Russia as the big bully in the region wishing to exert its prior influence on its former states. 

Russia loves the South Ossetians and they love Russia, but South Ossetia is part of Georgia and the "readiness" of Russia comes as no surprise considering they hate Tbilisi's guts and have been looking for any excuse to butt slam them.

I don't claim to be a political expert in the region, but I know enough to know that Russia is about as honest and trustworthy as China (not that Georgia is an innocent victim) which is to say not very much.

How I long for democracy there...


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## Raiden (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm reading another article about this and it looks like the situation is very bad. Someone reported seeing dead bodies in the streets and there were other reports that hundreds of civilians were killed. Also, it looks like a pipeline was bombed as well.


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 9, 2008)

Hum... Seems like the shit escalated all-out... Georgia seems like it's going to be really invaded and fucked in the ass by the Reds (damn, "Reds" is actually a cool term for the Russian Army ! It's better than "Ivan" !)

As a bloodsucker for war stuff, I require more footage and strategic reports (and tactical movement diagrams. I love driagrams)



> Also, it looks like a pipeline was bombed as well.



Aaaahhh... FINALLY, someone mentioning it ! I was waiting for someone to bring the oleoduc in this story. See, there's a whole pipeline going from the Caspian and avoiding any Russian-Friendly territory in Georgia up to the Black Sea. Basically, Russians don't control it as much as they'd like to, and Western oil corporates benefit from it for the moment. If Russia invades Georgia completely, that ressource goes back to Russia, allowing them more stuff for energy deals.

That's an other fact rarely mentioned, because the focus is always on "LOL ITSA OUR LAND !!" and "I WANNA BE INDEPENDENT §!!!!". And also "IMMAH BEING OPPRESSED !!" (by both sides : Ossetians say the Georgians bully them, the Georgians say Russia bullies them. And russia is saying "STFU !!! Both of you, but Georgia more !")


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## niyesuH (Aug 9, 2008)

i wonder how this will effect the US elections


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

I saw that's it's also a pro EU country that's want to be member of the EU. We must back them. But we must prove to the russiand that the russian community is safe in Georgia.


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## Dionysus (Aug 9, 2008)

Itsuki said:


> Okay, I'll put it this way. They're destroying what the Olympics is intended to do.


Foster Nationalism?


----------



## Surreal (Aug 9, 2008)

Le Male said:


> I saw that's it's also a pro EU country that's want to be member of the EU. We must back them. But we must prove to the russiand that the russian community is safe in Georgia.



Back up a nation that started a war? As a worthy candidate for EU? Cease fire was in effect when the Georgian troops entered S. Ossetia and marched towards the capital. They killed 15 Russian soldiers, piecekeepers that were there to ensure cease fire is obliged. 

When Russia responded Georgians tried to look for US for protection, with their retarded president saying "We are defending American values, US should help us", a statement which is beyond retarded. 

There was a meeting between Bush and Putin in Beijing right after Georgian troops broke the cease fire where Putin warned Bush that action will be taken if they don't stop. Few hours later Russian tanks crossed the border.

I kinda doubt EU supports warmongering states that attack when cease fire is in effect and then try to goad US to protect them with a a pathetic sentimental speech that holds no real value. 

This time line and sequence of events is all over the Croatian newspapers (Croatia holds no big love for Russia at all, so no bias here, especially since we are pro EU and pro US) and I saw it in a few foreign ones as well. 

I have no idea what Georgia was trying to do, but if they were expecting to break cease fire, attack first and then beg for help, expecting a large nation will wage war on their side they have another thing coming.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

I didn't heard about the 15 Russian soldiers killed, i heard about the suspission of russian that's think georgian kill russian civilians. That's why i think the EU should do something to keep the russian safe in Georgia. We shouldn't be against a pro Western and pro EU country that's try to become democratic. Russia become less and less an allies to the western.


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## Rikudou (Aug 9, 2008)

Holy shit, what would have happened if Georgia was ALREADY a member of Nato?
All other members would have been obliged to help them...


----------



## kayanathera (Aug 9, 2008)

CrazyMoronX said:


> Georgia is a redneck state. I think we should let Russia have it.



through georgia passes the few remaining independant oil pipes from caspian sea.if russia gets a grip on them europe will choke to death.this like any other war has nothing to do with principles or citizen or any other shit.it has to do with money, wealth stop being so ignorant.us didnt entered ww1 untill it feared that it will not get back its loans to france an uk and in ww2 because japan was idiot enough to attack them.


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## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Aug 9, 2008)

Isn't South Ossetia part of Goergia?? If it is the solution is simple: The russian their should choose between leaving Ossetia and going to Russia or to live in Georgia under the "Georgian Rule" of course with equity with the rest. This should have been the position of Georgia ...


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## Dionysus (Aug 9, 2008)

Rikudou said:


> Holy shit, what would have happened if Georgia was ALREADY a member of Nato?
> All other members would have been obliged to help them...



You are assuming it would all have unfolded in the same way.


----------



## Surreal (Aug 9, 2008)

Le Male said:


> I didn't heard about the 15 Russian soldiers killed, i heard about the suspission of russian that's think georgian kill russian civilians. That's why i think the EU should do something to keep the russian safe in Georgia. We shouldn't be against a pro Western and pro EU country that's try to become democratic. Russia become less and less an allies to the western.




Countries that try to become democratic don't instigate wars. By that logic, EU should backup any country that wants to join, regardless of what they do? I don't think there should be "oh, they want to be like us, lets help them regardless of what they did". 

There should be "did they start this? did they fuck up? was it their fault?"

And yes, Russian peacekeepers, soldiers that were there on a mission to preserve the cease fire treaty were killed when Georgia BROKE the cease fire and ATTACKED S.Ossetia. 

Even if they weren't killed, Georgia fucked up royally and now they are whining and begging for help, hoping for some sympathy. In a war they started.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

Surreal said:


> Countries that try to become democratic don't instigate wars. By that logic, EU should backup any country that wants to join, regardless of what they do? I don't think there should be "oh, they want to be like us, lets help them regardless of what they did".
> 
> There should be "did they start this? did they fuck up? was it their fault?"
> 
> ...



I saw that 3 russians soldiers were killed. Their target was not the soldiers but the independentists. Their attack was on their land, it's not like if they attacked Russian in Russia. 
Do you think we should say nothing ? If we say and do nothing then Russia we'll feel free to invade S.Ossetia and then why not Georgia.


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 9, 2008)

Surreal said:


> Back up a nation that started a war? As a worthy candidate for EU? Cease fire was in effect when the Georgian troops entered S. Ossetia and marched towards the capital. They killed 15 Russian soldiers, piecekeepers that were there to ensure cease fire is obliged.
> 
> When Russia responded Georgians tried to look for US for protection, with their retarded president saying "We are defending American values, US should help us", a statement which is beyond retarded.
> 
> ...




cut the crap.. these so called ''peace keepers'' were arming and training rebel fighters..


----------



## Surreal (Aug 9, 2008)

> I saw that 3 russians soldiers were killed. Their target was not the soldiers but the independentists. Their attack was on their land, it's not like if they attacked Russian in Russia.
> Do you think we should say nothing ? If we say and do nothing then Russia we'll feel free to invade S.Ossetia and then why not Georgia.


"Sorry, we weren't aiming for them" doesn't really cut it.

Their attack was on a territory that has a majority of Russian citizens that want to break of from Georgia anyway. In the process of their attack on the Russian citizens they managed to kill Russian soldiers.

What should be done is to try to stop the conflict, stop the innocent people from dying and try to prevent the war from escalating. 

What shouldn't be done is openly siding with a country that started a war by backstabbing a cease fire treaty. Stupid and wrong.




> cut the crap.. these so called ''peace keepers'' were arming and training rebel fighters..



You mean like American soldiers training Georgia troops? Russian troops have been there for 18 years and have every right to be considering it's RUSSIAN CITIZENS.


----------



## amael (Aug 9, 2008)

Watched Georgia's president on CNN yesterday and it was unbelievable. He somehow tried to prove that he ordered attack on South Ossetia *after* Russia moved in its tanks. He also tried very hard to downplay his action against Ossetia and actively cultivated image of a big evil Russia bulling little innocent Georgia. And also he somehow *personally* seen russian jets bombing Georgia (without any proofs, of course, and without mentioning that Georgia has some  aircraft of the same model in its military) All in all it was quite pathetic.
Some saying that Ossetia first opened fire and that it was Ossetia behind provocations of the last few days but, in the end, the ones who will loose more than anyone else in this war are the Ossetians, so i find it hard to believe in this.


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 9, 2008)

ah yes.. that would make sense.. Georgian jets bombing their own airfield and harbors


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## amael (Aug 9, 2008)

As for the peace keepers training rebels, that may be true or not, but either way it does not justify attack on them.
I am sayng that it is very easy to make _proofs_ for Georgia(about bombings i mean)


----------



## Raiden (Aug 9, 2008)

Rikudou said:


> Holy shit, what would have happened if Georgia was ALREADY a member of Nato?
> All other members would have been obliged to help them...



You do know that would mean an all out war with Russia. That's what the United States and I suppose other countries are trying to avoid, and their current stance is to push for a ceasefire. Getting involved in the situation in that manner will only make things worse.


----------



## Henxt (Aug 9, 2008)

How can some of you be so blind? Georgia troops doubled in the past years thanks to the US. 5 smaller citys in Ossetia were already bombed and now Russia tries to stop this genocide. 
This is no different from what happened in Yugoslawia. If you dont see the parallels between Georgia and Serbia then i cant help you.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

Surreal said:


> "Sorry, we weren't aiming for them" doesn't really cut it.
> 
> Their attack was on a territory that has a majority of Russian citizens that want to break of from Georgia anyway. In the process of their attack on the Russian citizens they managed to kill Russian soldiers.
> 
> ...



I disagree on the fact that, they started a war, It was on their territory, not russian territory. Their attack was in their land, Russia attacked South Ossetia and other part of Georgia.


----------



## Darklyre (Aug 9, 2008)

Henxt said:


> How can some of you be so blind? Georgia troops doubled in the past years thanks to the US. 5 smaller citys in Ossetia were already bombed and now Russia tries to stop this genocide.
> This is no different from what happened in Yugoslawia. If you dont see the parallels between Georgia and Serbia then i cant help you.



Last I checked, this was a territorial conflict, not one of ethnic cleansing.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

hmm lets see the Georgians have several oil piplines that are backed by the US They are at a crossroads between Rusdia and the middle east, in otherwords a strategic position.



> georgia passes the few remaining independant oil pipes from caspian sea.if russia gets a grip on them europe will choke to death.



The US does have a lot at stake here lets hope they settle it quickly.


----------



## Henxt (Aug 9, 2008)

Le Male said:


> I disagree on the fact that, they started a war, It was on their territory, not russian territory. Their attack was in their land, Russia attacked South Ossetia and other part of Georgia.



So russia should stand by and watch how its citizens get killed?  Yeaah every country would do that..
Russia protects South Ossetia, not attacking them.



Darklyre said:


> Last I checked, this was a territorial conflict, not one of ethnic cleansing.



Maybe u should switch channel. (I'm so glad german news are less biased than in america. At least one thing we learned from our past)


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

Darklyre said:


> Last I checked, this was a territorial conflict, not one of ethnic cleansing.



They're there for the citizens who have russian citizenship.



Henxt said:


> So russia should stand by and watch how its citizens get killed?  Yeaah every country would do that..
> Russia protects South Ossetia, not attacking them.



Protect ? Conquest would be a better word. The russian said. We "liberate" Tskhinvali. The lithuania foreign affairs minister who is in Georgia said the russian cross all red lines. 

You talk about a genocide ? How many russian were killed to talk about gebocide ? 

I don't understand you can still have trust in Russia after what they did to Viktor Iouchtchenko and Alexander Litvinenko in London.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 9, 2008)

Le Male said:


> You talk about a genocide ? How many russian were killed to talk about gebocide ?
> 
> I don't understand you can still have trust in Russia after what they did to Viktor Iouchtchenko and Alexander Litvinenko in London.


Reports say that at least 1000 Ossetians were killed.
Believe it or not,Russia has the moral standing and the support of the Ossetians.


----------



## |)/-\\/\/|\| (Aug 9, 2008)

Well let Russia evacuate their citizens then, I think Georgia won't mind.


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 9, 2008)

Diceman said:


> Reports say that at least 1000 Ossetians were killed.
> Believe it or not,Russia has the moral standing and the support of the Ossetians.



they said Ossetians or people? dont mix stuff up.. Russia is the one blindly dropping bombs..


you wanna tell me this is military building?


----------



## Henxt (Aug 9, 2008)

Le Male said:


> The lithuania foreign affairs minister who is in Georgia said the russian cross all red lines.


Lithuania isnt neutral, so i cant care less what they say. They have even memorials for german soldiers who died in ww2 just to provocate russia...



Le Male said:


> I don't understand you can still have trust in Russia after what they did to Viktor Iouchtchenko and Alexander Litvinenko in London.


Did they? If so, then Milosevic was poisened in den haag by the free world 

I just hope this war ends soon


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 9, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> they said Ossetians or people? dont mix stuff up.. Russia is the one blindly dropping bombs..
> 
> 
> you wanna tell me this is military building?



Ossetians.



> Georgia says 60 people died in Gori when the *bombs hit residential buildings as well as military targets.*


Russia isnt know for their accuracy with bombs.Colletaral damage is inavoidable in this sort of conflicts.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

Henxt said:


> Lithuania isnt neutral, so i cant care less what they say. They have even memorials for german soldiers who died in ww2 just to provocate russia...
> 
> 
> Did they? If so, then Milosevic was poisened in den haag by the free world
> ...



Ok, well the president of the United States also disaprove that russian army invade Georgia. 

and about Milisevic it was proved that's he wasn't poisened. 



But it come free world new so maybe it's not prove for you.


----------



## narutosushi (Aug 9, 2008)

Even if Georgia broke the cease-fire, Russia invaded there territory I don't think anyone  would want there country invaded by someone else.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> I have no hate towards Russia just the way it is turning out. It seems to be in a state of regression under Putin and his puppet leader.
> 
> I would love to visit Russia and especially the Caucasus, but going there now is hardly a good idea unless I want to be killed. Especially if I reveal I am a quarter Russian in Chechyna.
> 
> I would be cut into quarters.


But it has more billionaires than the US. The economy is improving, and the population declining is declining. This is the best state it's been in since it USSR.

Also just tell them you're American, the terrorists there are weird and they like Americans despite the rest of their brood hates Americans. Hell, a couple of them even had passports from America.






> "Russia" and "moral" should never be in the same sentence.
> 
> While I admit that the former Soviet state relations issue is very complex, I cannot help but see Russia as the big bully in the region wishing to exert its prior influence on its former states.
> 
> ...


But this land was Russia until Khrushchev decided to be a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and give S. Ossetia (why couldn't he just leave it alone? But no, he has to go and separate them)  and Krim to Ukraine. This was back in the 60's, maybe 50's. 

Also, Georgia has been provoking them for quite a while now- well they wanted war, now they get it.


----------



## batanga (Aug 9, 2008)

Raiden said:


> I'm reading another article about this and it looks like the situation is very bad. *Someone reported seeing dead bodies in the streets*


Well, duh. Come on now...

Also, anyone here from Georgia or that South Ossetia?


----------



## Hatifnatten (Aug 9, 2008)

You're all usa propaganda fooled idiots 

My brother right now in Ossetia, you want to know what happened? georgia promessed not to attack and to negotiate yeasterday evening, and late night, when everybody were sleeping georgia attacked, killing women and children. 12 hours later Russia, obviously, sent their forced to protect Osetia, but thanx to perfect plan to blame Russia in everything, now Russian "started war"... ARE YOU PEOPLE SANE? Georgian president talk to his people IN ENGLISH! Isn't this a bit not right to you? Stop blaming other countries, and look what yours feed you. America on yet another course to take the world in it's hands. You want another cold war - sure, here it is. Thanx america, thanx bush


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Aug 9, 2008)

Oooh.  Modern warfare.  Wonder how this will turn out


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

> You want another cold war - sure, here it is. Thanx america, thanx bush



As if Russia is in a position to be in another cold war LOL It will be interesting to see how well the Russians preform here.


----------



## FrostXian (Aug 9, 2008)

If this is, as it usually is, America's doing, you should remember Bush is too retarded to plot this stuff.
Just blame the government overall, next time.


----------



## Megaharrison (Aug 9, 2008)

The Russians killed the same number of Georgians in 2 days then we did Lebanese in 2 months. Now _that's_ carpet bombing.

I'm surprised there's so little international outrage. We can't even kill 6 Pali's without the world getting up our asses. The world isn't fair 

More on topic: Georgia's most advanced air defense system seems to be the 1970's era SA-6 Gainful, and they have extremely small amounts of even those. It doesn't come as a surprise they're unable to shoot down Russian jets. The Russians even whipped out Tu-160's today.

Though in all seriousness, considering that most of the people of South Ossetia themselves seem to want to become part of Russia I don't see a problem with them joining the Russian Federation. Georgia should withdraw its forces, on the pretense that South Ossetia never lifts a finger against them again. This is quickly escalating into a dangerous Cold War-esque conflict and needs to be ended as quickly as possible.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

Dont the Georgians have the ZSU-23 Shika? Are they not effective?


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 9, 2008)

Hatifnatten said:


> You're all usa propaganda fooled idiots
> 
> My brother right now in Ossetia, you want to know what happened? georgia promessed not to attack and to negotiate yeasterday evening, and late night, when everybody were sleeping georgia attacked, killing women and children. 12 hours later Russia, obviously, sent their forced to protect Osetia, but thanx to perfect plan to blame Russia in everything, now Russian "started war"... ARE YOU PEOPLE SANE? Georgian president talk to his people IN ENGLISH! Isn't this a bit not right to you? Stop blaming other countries, and look what yours feed you. America on yet another course to take the world in it's hands. You want another cold war - sure, here it is. Thanx america, thanx bush


Oh yeah!?  Well my brother in Ossetia says the exact opposite. 

I'm sure the Russians are innocent in all this.  It's not like Russia to be subversive and aggressive.

You know, I think it's time for China to get the blame for things.  Blame China for at least 50% of all the Earth's problems from now on.  It's the new standard.



Megaharrison said:


> Though in all seriousness, considering that most of the people of South Ossetia themselves seem to want to become part of Russia I don't see a problem with them joining the Russian Federation.


Didn't Russia handing those citizenships out seem a little odd?

Well, at least they can't complain about Kosovo now.  Though, if I were other states with Russian-speaking populations, I'd look out for the stink of the Kremlin.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

> The Russians even whipped out Tu-160's today.



For comparison that would be like Israel whipping out b-52 on the Gaza strip.  and those in the know "know" that the Tu-160 is not really a precision weapons platform....

On the up side this is an intelligence windfall for the US and co as we get to observe Russian military equipment and doctirne first hand. And devise more appropriate counters.


----------



## TatsuBon (Aug 9, 2008)

that story is big on english news
'tis not nice >.<
the BBC are always so negative!


----------



## Megaharrison (Aug 9, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> Dont the Georgians have the ZSU-23 Shika? Are they not effective?



ZSU's can bring down helicopters but it's very unlikely anyone could bring down a modern fighter jet with those things these days. The Iraqi's had plenty of them in both Gulf Wars and never even struck Coalition fighters for instance.

The Russians are striking with capable strike fighters like the SU-24 and MIG-29's equipped from bombing missions as well as advanced strategic bombers like the Tu-160. A ZSU wouldn't stand much of a chance against those.


----------



## Altron (Aug 9, 2008)

I say China invade both countries, telling both sides to STFU And GTFO, while they are holding the Olympics.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

Well Georgia is officially screwed since they have already lost control of the air, too bad. 



> I say China invade both countries, telling both sides to STFU And GTFO, while they are holding the Olympics.



I was pondering saying that same thing LOL


----------



## Dionysus (Aug 9, 2008)

Give the outrage time.  Reports are just coming in that Russia is bombing Georgian civilians.  Most people are probably tuned in to some shitty Olympic event while all this is happening.


----------



## batanga (Aug 9, 2008)

Well, I at least am following this, don't give a shit about the olympics.


----------



## Xion (Aug 9, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> But it has more billionaires than the US. The economy is improving, and the population declining is declining. This is the best state it's been in since it USSR.



It has less billionaires than the U.S. actually. Just take a look at Wikipedia or Forbes.

The economy is improving but it is still considered a developing nation and is not even in the same "developing" category as China, Brazil, and India.

I would say it was better under Gorbachev.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Also just tell them you're American, the terrorists there are weird and they like Americans despite the rest of their brood hates Americans. Hell, a couple of them even had passports from America.



It's a trap. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> But this land was Russia until Khrushchev decided to be a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) and give S. Ossetia (why couldn't he just leave it alone? But no, he has to go and separate them)  and Krim to Ukraine. This was back in the 60's, maybe 50's.



By that logic Mexico should invade the U.S. and take back the Southwest. Hate Khrushchev not Georgia. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Also, Georgia has been provoking them for quite a while now- well they wanted war, now they get it.



You have to be a little more specific than that, especially with both sides blaming the other.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

Hatifnatten said:


> You're all usa propaganda fooled idiots
> 
> My brother right now in Ossetia, you want to know what happened? georgia promessed not to attack and to negotiate yeasterday evening, and late night, when everybody were sleeping georgia attacked, killing women and children. 12 hours later Russia, obviously, sent their forced to protect Osetia, but thanx to perfect plan to blame Russia in everything, now Russian "started war"... ARE YOU PEOPLE SANE? Georgian president talk to his people IN ENGLISH! Isn't this a bit not right to you? Stop blaming other countries, and look what yours feed you. America on yet another course to take the world in it's hands. You want another cold war - sure, here it is. Thanx america, thanx bush



In your story, Russia, are the good guys and western are evil. Who trust ? Our media.........or your brother.


----------



## Henxt (Aug 9, 2008)

Wikipedia has the most neutral view on events i found .

Btw in german Tv u can only see georgian victims. I wonder why they dont show South Ossetias Capital 
The Information-war already begun



Le Male said:


> In your story, Russia, are the good guys and western are evil. Who trust ? Our media.........or your brother.


You know pictures can heavily influence peoples opinions. I've yet to see South Ossetians being interviewd on CNN... why arent they shown?


----------



## Altron (Aug 9, 2008)

Henxt said:


> *Wikipedia has the most neutral view on events i found* .
> 
> Btw in german Tv u can only see georgian victims. I wonder why they dont show South Ossetias Capital
> The Information-war already begun
> ...



.........................


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 9, 2008)

..It's STILL going on? Jesus.


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 9, 2008)

Why Russia bomb the Poti's harbour ?


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> It has less billionaires than the U.S. actually. Just take a look at Wikipedia or Forbes.


I blame my sleepiness when I wake up. Russia has the second highest amount, and the highest number in Mosocw of any city.



> The economy is improving but it is still considered a developing nation and is not even in the same "developing" category as China, Brazil, and India.
> 
> I would say it was better under Gorbachev.


China's growth is completely dependent on Russia's growth, as Russia's output of oil determines how much China gets. It's funny that all of the nations listed are part of the BRIC organization. Also, check out these maps: 






On basically all of them, Russia outperforms the other three. So if anything, Russia'd be on a higher scale. 





> It's a trap.


No, it's a secret plan by NATO to destroy Russia 





> By that logic Mexico should invade the U.S. and take back the Southwest. Hate Khrushchev not Georgia.


They are, but in a different way. Not to mention the war for Mexico was already fought, the treaties signed, all that good stuff. And Mexico never had the land as long as Russia did Ossetia (it was one before Khrushchev's movements"





> You have to be a little more specific than that, especially with both sides blaming the other.


What do you want? Attempts to join NATO, the whole UAV scandal, inviting the US on to their soil (for us we don't care, but to Russia it's like Rick Rubin working with Metallica: a slap in the face). They've tempted Russia, but when they finally gather up the balls to make good on their threats, they don't like the consequences.


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 9, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> What do you want? Attempts to join NATO, the whole UAV scandal, inviting the US on to their soil (for us we don't care, but to Russia it's like Bob Rock working with Metallica: a slap in the face). They've tempted Russia, but when they finally gather up the balls to make good on their threats, they don't like the consequences.



Fixed for truthiness.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

I was referring to KFK's feelings about Rick working with Metallica, but your idea works too


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 9, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> I was referring to KFK's feelings about Rick working with Metallica, but your idea works too



Oh..well..still. He produced fucking amazing Slayer albums. Perhaps he can raise 'Tallica from the dead. Speaking of raising the dead, it's gonna suck that no one can revive those civilians in Georgia.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

Painkiller said:


> Oh..well..still. He produced fucking amazing Slayer albums. Perhaps he can raise 'Tallica from the dead. Speaking of raising the dead, it's gonna suck that no one can revive those civilians in Georgia.



That doesn't change the fact that Kerry isn't happy about it. And I'd have to say it has more to do with the band than the producer, regarding the quality of albums. People have said Death Magnetic will be better, but I'm not holding my breath. But if it is awesome then hallelujah.


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 9, 2008)

I wonder when the mass graves will show up... I see both sides screaming "GENOCIDE !!!" And toying with numbers. 2,000 dead Ossetian civilians ? Since the whole period of tension that started in the late 90s (Then OK, maybe it's mostly elders that died because of age or natural causes) ? Or in just 4 days (wow ! Georgians sure are super efficient for mass killing, with their super-awesome weaponery they don't have) ?

2,000 dead overall, Georgians, Ossetians and Russians, OK, would make sense, but since the Russian medias that release this number NEVER mention the nationalities of the dead...

Fuck if it JUST ends with 2,000 overall, it would actually be a least bad death toll. I mean, it could easily be 10,000 if they (all sides) don't stop fucking around soon.


----------



## Jin-E (Aug 9, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> I wonder when the mass graves will show up... I see both sides screaming "GENOCIDE !!!" And toying with numbers. 2,000 dead Ossetian civilians ? Since the whole period of tension that started in the late 90s (Then OK, maybe it's mostly elders that died because of age or natural causes) ? Or in just 4 days (wow ! Georgians sure are super efficient for mass killing, with their super-awesome weaponery they don't have)



In the Rwanda genocide, 800 000 was killed in a few months by simple guns and Machetes.

Weapons can be lowtech and yet still very lethal.


----------



## Megaharrison (Aug 9, 2008)

Seems the Georgians are actually fighting back. The Russians have admitted to losing an SU-25 ground attack Fighter and a Tu-22M strategic bomber. The latter especially is actually rather significant, those things aren't cheap. One of the pilots from the downed Russian jets has also been captured by the Georgian military.

Georgia itself has claimed it has shot down as many as 10 Russian aircraft, but the Russians thus far have admitted (or confirmed) to 2.


----------



## Xion (Aug 9, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> I blame my sleepiness when I wake up. Russia has the second highest amount, and the highest number in Mosocw of any city.



They don't have the second or third highest either (India and Germany have more). 

But you are right about Moscow.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> China's growth is completely dependent on Russia's growth, as Russia's output of oil determines how much China gets. It's funny that all of the nations listed are part of the BRIC organization. Also, check out these maps:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't say China is "dependent" on Russia. But they certainly use their oil it appears (also Sudan's ).

Based on economic developments and the embracing of capitalism I make the assessment that Russia is behind China, India, and Brazil. But since it is a BRIC nation it is not too far behind them.

I don't really want to get into a statistical argument with you since statistics are really boring in a war article so I will agree with you in that they are no Kenya and their economy is right up there with India and China. However, I do not think that it is nearly as strong (especially looking into the future) as those other, rapidly globalizing nations.

In terms of military strength and power though they are right next to the United States.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> They are, but in a different way. Not to mention the war for Mexico was already fought, the treaties signed, all that good stuff. And Mexico never had the land as long as Russia did Ossetia (it was one before Khrushchev's movements"



Did Khrushchev just hand over the land or what? If it was government sanctioned it is pretty much the same thing though, is it not?

Alaska was gotten without a war. We even paid them for it. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> What do you want? Attempts to join NATO, the whole UAV scandal, inviting the US on to their soil (for us we don't care, but to Russia it's like Rick Rubin working with Metallica: a slap in the face). They've tempted Russia, but when they finally gather up the balls to make good on their threats, they don't like the consequences.



So buddying up to the U.S. and the West is a cause for invasion?

I thought it was for the peacekeepers? 

I know the two countries do not like each other, but this is ridiculous.

Now we will have a new Lebanon in the region thanks to Israel Russia. 

Russia is practically the Israel of the Caucasus not counting the Georgia-hating areas like Abkhazia and Ossetia.


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 9, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> That doesn't change the fact that Kerry isn't happy about it. And I'd have to say it has more to do with the band than the producer, regarding the quality of albums. People have said Death Magnetic will be better, but I'm not holding my breath. But if it is awesome then hallelujah.



Did he say he was pissed off because Rick did it? And did you hear to some of the riffs that were leaked?


----------



## Xion (Aug 9, 2008)

You guys have to see Russia for what it really is.

Paranoid of the West.

It is their only real reason for supporting the Separatist states in Georgia and waging war against Tbilisi.

They despise Georgia for being in bed with the West and trying to join NATO and do not want to b "encircled" by the West.

So they cling to their guns...


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 9, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> I wonder when the mass graves will show up... I see both sides screaming "GENOCIDE !!!" And toying with numbers. 2,000 dead Ossetian civilians ? Since the whole period of tension that started in the late 90s (Then OK, maybe it's mostly elders that died because of age or natural causes) ? Or in just 4 days (wow ! Georgians sure are super efficient for mass killing, with their super-awesome weaponery they don't have) ?
> 
> 2,000 dead overall, Georgians, Ossetians and Russians, OK, would make sense, but since the Russian medias that release this number NEVER mention the nationalities of the dead...
> 
> Fuck if it JUST ends with 2,000 overall, it would actually be a least bad death toll. I mean, it could easily be 10,000 if they (all sides) don't stop fucking around soon.



i think the Russian bombings caused the most killing.. Georgia was quick to declare a cease fire after the troops entered the Ossetian capital



II Xion II said:


> You guys have to see Russia for what it really is.
> 
> Paranoid of the West.
> 
> ...



you explained it well.. except for the paranoid part


----------



## Xion (Aug 9, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> i think the Russian bombings caused the most killing.. Georgia was quick to declare a cease fire after the troops entered the Ossetian capital
> 
> you explained it well.. except for the paranoid part



They are paranoid.

Same for the missile shield in Eastern Europe. They see the West as ready to take them on and think backwardly like that.

Everything is a war game (or just a war) to them.

Scary to think that the vast nuclear, biological, and chemical arsenal of Russia is so undocumented and can be potentially easily misplaced.


----------



## rldragon (Aug 9, 2008)

Of course they are paranoid/wary of the West, especially the US. As far as I see, Russia is trying to reclaim their position of one of the super/greater powers. How much succeesful they are I don't know, but one thing is certain. They are noticeably stronger than 15 or so years ago, and US is currently weaker than several years ago. It wouldn't suprise me if Russia simply annexed S.Ossetia.


----------



## Teach (Aug 9, 2008)

I'm from Finland and oddly I support Russia, that's quite odd.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 9, 2008)

Tskhinvali has been wiped out. 



> "The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists. There is nothing left. It was wiped out by the Georgian military," the Russian news agency Interfax said, quoting the Russian ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko.


----------



## Altron (Aug 9, 2008)

Raiden said:


> Tskhinvali has been wiped out.



It seems this time Russia is really serious now and is gonna go all out to obliterate Georgia.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> They don't have the second or third highest either (India and Germany have more).
> 
> But you are right about Moscow.








> I wouldn't say China is "dependent" on Russia. But they certainly use their oil it appears (also Sudan's ).
> 
> Based on economic developments and the embracing of capitalism I make the assessment that Russia is behind China, India, and Brazil. But since it is a BRIC nation it is not too far behind them.
> 
> I don't really want to get into a statistical argument with you since statistics are really boring in a war article so I will agree with you in that they are no Kenya and their economy is right up there with India and China. However, I do not think that it is nearly as strong (especially looking into the future) as those other, rapidly globalizing nations.


Oh thank god. I hate numbers outside anything military related. Partly because I never really read them so I can get lost sometimes, but w/e.



> In terms of military strength and power though they are right next to the United States.


Well, being a superpower doesn't go away after 10 years, especially when there's still growth. 





> Did Khrushchev just hand over the land or what? If it was government sanctioned it is pretty much the same thing though, is it not?


I can't find anything about it on wiki, which worries me as a I heard it from a Russian, so now I think he may have lied to me, which is unusual as he's normally right. I'll get back to you on it, I'll search some other places.




> Alaska was gotten without a war. We even paid them for it.


I think that's why Russia doesn't care, they have plenty of land just like Alaska and they just boght themselves a crapload of vodka...or did when we bought it





> So buddying up to the U.S. and the West is a cause for invasion?


Russia sees the Caucus as its backyard, and is mad that NATO seems to be trying to surround it, so in their eyes yes.



> I thought it was for the peacekeepers?
> 
> I know the two countries do not like each other, but this is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


What can I say? Ethnic and religious fights are a bitch.

@Painkiller: Yeah, it's here: Page One

And no I haven't heard them, I don't want Lars to have his period again and sue me later on


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

So Russia uses ballistic missiles and stratigic bombers and wipes out Georgia capital and no one is complaining? The world really is not fair, imagine if the Israelis did that to Gaza...

Or was it the seperatist capital that got destoryed by both sides?


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

Where'd you hear that? I really doubt the West would let Russia get away with that.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 9, 2008)

I saw it quoted in this thread and the latest CNN article mention ballistic missile use (non nuclear)

here:



> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Russia's use of strategic bombers and ballistic missiles against Georgia's civilians outside of the South Ossetian conflict is "far disproportionate" to Georgia's alleged attack on Russian peacekeepers, a senior U.S. official said Saturday.


----------



## Xion (Aug 9, 2008)

I admit. You're right.

I was looking at the Wikipedia page for it which lists info from Forbes 2007.

The 2008 study raised it to Number 2.

But number of billionaires isn't a great economic measure nonetheless since countries very economically-developed countries like France and the U.K. are nowhere near India and Russia. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Oh thank god. I hate numbers outside anything military related. Partly because I never really read them so I can get lost sometimes, but w/e.



Yay we can agree. 

Let's get some vodka now. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Russia sees the Caucus as its backyard, and is mad that NATO seems to be trying to surround it, so in their eyes yes.



Then that raises the question of whether that is a justifiable reason. From Russia's point of view it might seem so, but do you honestly think so?

We have Cuba right up our ass but we haven't tried to invade them (ignoring a certain missile crisis and early American history), just assassinate their leaders.  Bad example.

Georgia might be a pain but using their pain-assedness as a reason to go Israel on their ass might be a little over-the-line.



			
				Teach said:
			
		

> I'm from Finland and oddly I support Russia, that's quite odd.



Two things:

a.) Conspiracy. Between you and Sexta Espada, that makes two Finns supporting Russia. Finland must be a former Soviet state. 

b.) A non-American One Piece fan. I don't believe it...


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

There's still very little clear, and I really doubt Russia used ballistic missiles. Also, CNN is not exactly on Russia's side, so they're bound to exaggerate a little...I wouldn't be surprised if by ballistic missile they meant guided arty, but use the word that gets everybody jumpy.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 9, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> I admit. You're right.
> 
> I was looking at the Wikipedia page for it which lists info from Forbes 2007.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but they still got bragging rights. Now, watch as throughout the rest of 2008 and 2009, the US billionaires are all die off of "natural" causes  





> Yay we can agree.
> 
> Let's get some vodka now.


And wimmenz 





> Then that raises the question of whether that is a justifiable reason. From Russia's point of view it might seem so, but do you honestly think so?


From that POV, no. But the fact that Georgia killed 10 soldiers first can, so while some of Russia's reasons are wrong, others a right. But either way, it's a shithole war that's useless in terms of everything except politically scaring NATO to stop expansion or giving NATO the balls to expand.



> We have Cuba right up our ass but we haven't tried to invade them (ignoring a certain missile crisis and early American history), just assassinate their leaders.  Bad example.
> 
> Georgia might be a pain but using their pain-assedness as a reason to go Israel on their ass might be a little over-the-line.


I concur 





> Two things:
> 
> a.) Conspiracy. Between you and Sexta Espada, that makes two Finns supporting Russia. Finland must be a former Soviet state.
> 
> b.) A non-American One Piece fan. I don't believe it...


I'd be laughing if I hadn't heard that one from somebody before, his reasons being Finland elected the same president for 25 years and the basic issue Finnish rifle is based on the AK47, because it's not like Russia didn't have half a mind to invade and it's not a good decision to be able to use captured ammo.  

When I pointed out to him he had contact with the West that Warsaw Pact states never had and that US elected FDR in for 16 years, he ignored them and continued to say Finland was a USSR puppet because it had social welfare policies. At this point I left the conversation, which quickly deteriorated into a discussion about one guy's criminal record.


----------



## hcheng02 (Aug 9, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> So Russia uses ballistic missiles and stratigic bombers and wipes out Georgia capital and no one is complaining? The world really is not fair, imagine if the Israelis did that to Gaza...
> 
> Or was it the seperatist capital that got destoryed by both sides?



The reason why noone is complaining is because its Russia doing it. The Europeans, who do most of the complaining, don't want to offend their nearby oil and gas depot.


----------



## Altron (Aug 10, 2008)

Georgia pulls out of South ossetia


----------



## MrCinos (Aug 10, 2008)

> I see both sides screaming "GENOCIDE !!!" And toying with numbers. 2,000 dead Ossetian civilians ? Since the whole period of tension that started in the late 90s (Then OK, maybe it's mostly elders that died because of age or natural causes) ? Or in just 4 days (wow ! Georgians sure are super efficient for mass killing, with their super-awesome weaponery they don't have) ?


~1500-2000 were killed in one night.

All I hope that the president of Georgia along with those idiots who thought their "plan" would die horrible death >_>


----------



## BeyonderZ (Aug 10, 2008)

We need to mind our own business and let them kill each other. 

Try to save some of the starving and homeless children here before we spend billions of dollars trying to rebuild that shit hole.


----------



## vered (Aug 10, 2008)

Altron said:


> Georgia pulls out of South ossetia



yea.it seems the russians took complete control over south ossetia.that was expected.the russians are also attacking to take control of the second region abkhazia.


----------



## impersonal (Aug 10, 2008)

> Tskhinvali has been wiped out.





Tleilaxu said:


> So Russia uses ballistic missiles and stratigic bombers and wipes out Georgia capital and no one is complaining? The world really is not fair, imagine if the Israelis did that to Gaza...
> 
> Or was it the seperatist capital that got destoryed by both sides?



Tskhinvali is the South Ossetian capital. It was wiped out by Georgian forces (according to Russia). Almost all South Ossetians want to become Russians, so if it was destroyed it would make sense that Georgia did it (although admittedly Russia is not known for its delicacy or precision).


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 10, 2008)

Altron said:


> Georgia pulls out of South ossetia



Russia said that if that happened the attack would also stop.. lets see if they were honest


----------



## impersonal (Aug 10, 2008)

hcheng02 said:


> The reason why noone is complaining is because its Russia doing it. The Europeans, who do most of the complaining, don't want to offend their nearby oil and gas depot.



The Europeans are complaining, and the Americans too.


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 10, 2008)

i dont think Russia is gonna pull out.. they will prolly open another front from Ahbazya


----------



## King (Aug 10, 2008)

Wow. More war. Doesn't surprise me and shouldn't surprise anyone in this day and age.


----------



## Gary (Aug 10, 2008)

Lets hope this is finished quick of alot of things could go wrong


----------



## Deaf Ninja Reaper (Aug 10, 2008)

Russia is going to fuck up Georgia, no doubts.


----------



## Teach (Aug 10, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> a.) Conspiracy. Between you and Sexta Espada, that makes two Finns supporting Russia. Finland must be a former Soviet state.
> 
> b.) A non-American One Piece fan. I don't believe it...


It's probably because I find Putin GAR. 

putin is pretty cool guy eh cusses all the world, and doesn't afraid of anything.

(medvedev lol)

He plays hard and it benefits his country I guess.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 10, 2008)

Just another update.

Georgia now calls for a ceasefire:


----------



## Altron (Aug 10, 2008)

Now we need to see if Russia will accept this and keep its word.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 10, 2008)

Russia is now making incursions into Georgian territory and has sunk some Georgian ships.


----------



## Rikudou (Aug 10, 2008)

Heh Russia wants to inflict as much damage as they can to Georgia before they join Nato. Once Georgia joins Nato, Russia cannot attack.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 10, 2008)

NATO is a Cold War dinosaur, it's just as stupid as this conflict and should go, and probably will if the EU defence force plans grow and take root. Hell, even this is a Cold War thing, Georgia had autonomous republics in it's territory and withdrew without letting the autonomous republics choose their fate. So technically this whole war is a left over of the Cold War and is largely the fault of Georgian leadership.


----------



## Jin-E (Aug 10, 2008)

It almost seems to me that Moscow is now trying its best to humiliate Georgia as much as possible


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 10, 2008)

Jin-E said:


> It almost seems to me that Moscow is now trying its best to humiliate Georgia as much as possible



That's Russians for you : not only do they not forgive, they even destroy anything around you and only leave a few witness to spread the word "Do not piss them off"...


----------



## Nemesis (Aug 10, 2008)

Well the moment Georgia fully declared war on Russia it did actually invite the Russian military to stop fighting with one hand tied behind it's back.

Man the Georgian leader is either the biggest idiot world leader in the world (even more so than bush) Thinking that attacking Russian troops that were legally there would not have this kind of response or some NATO countries gave him subtle hints that Georgia would be backed up militarily.

Also Georgia says it wants to negotiate a cease fire.  Why would anyone trust them, the fact they broke the last cease fire only an hour after they called it makes their words dubious at least.  Also BEFORE Russia even fired back it went to the UN calling for a resolution telling both Georgia and South Ossetia to stop the fighting and guess what that got Vetoed by both USA and UK which means they have abosutely no room to talk in this either.

Now since Georgia has declared war on Russia, the Russians are doing what any other nation would.  Pummel their military into total submission.


----------



## Altron (Aug 10, 2008)

Russia is seriously taking no prisoners right now.

Seems they will not rest till Georgia is a pile of rubble.


----------



## Jin-E (Aug 10, 2008)

According to a Norwegian website, The Russians have sent massive amounts of artilery and bombers towards the city of Gori, which lies inside Georgia


----------



## Rikudou (Aug 10, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> NATO is a Cold War dinosaur, it's just as stupid as this conflict and should go, and probably will if the EU defence force plans grow and take root. Hell, even this is a Cold War thing, Georgia had autonomous republics in it's territory and withdrew without letting the autonomous republics choose their fate. So technically this whole war is a left over of the Cold War and is largely the fault of Georgian leadership.



Irrelevant.
Nato - US= EU Defence.

Georgia was likely to join it anyway. Either way, Russia can't attack ANY Nato or EU country. Within a few years it can't attack Georgia neither.

There's a reason they fear being isolated. That's what the see happening. Their "Sphere of Influence" is dissapearing.


----------



## Toby (Aug 10, 2008)

Sexta: Yes, NATO is outdated, but it still needs to be in place. The problem is that in this case you can't act with it, since no NATO nation is under threat. Russia knows this, and is painfully taking advantage of it. 

It annoys me also that the Ossetians think that the Russians will treat them well. All ethnic groups are marginalised in Russia, because the centre-periphery relations of the country's political structure has absorbed all central authority into the federal executive positions.

If anyone saw the interview with Putin, you'd see that Medvedev was acting like a reporter, and Putin was being the "know-it-all". No doubt where the power sits any more. This conflict just proves the git couldn't give it up. I hope he doesn't order troops beyond Abkhazia and South Ossetia, for his sake.


----------



## Megaharrison (Aug 10, 2008)

Jin-E said:


> It almost seems to me that Moscow is now trying its best to humiliate Georgia as much as possible



Well actually given Russia's overwhelming superiority they're not doing as well as I would of thought. The problems that plagued them in Chechnya are still there, albeit far less glaringly. Georgia has shot down as many as 10 Russian aircraft (including a highly expensive strategic bomber) and today apparently repelled a Russian armored assault. The Georgians are desperately short of any decent SAM's or ATGM's so that came as a surprise to at least me.

Keep in mind that the Georgian's forces in S. Ossetia consisted of only 1 battalion. A full invasion of Georgia would most likely be a bloodier affair for the Russian army.

Though Russia winning really shouldn't come as a surprise here:

Russian Military:
Troops: 1 million
Tanks: 22,000 (though most are poor quality T-54/55's, T-62's, and T-72's)
APC/AIFV's: 18,000
Artillery/MLRS: 10,000
Combat Aircraft: 1,700
Ships: 170 capital ships and fast attack craft

Georgian Military:
Troops: 26,000
Tanks: 400 (all poor quality T-54/55's or T-72's)
APC/AIFV's: 500 (all low quality Soviet stuff save about 100 Turkish made IFV)
Artillery/MLRS: 140
Combat Aircraft: 15 (all SU-25 ground attack fighters or SU-24's)
Ships: 15-20 fast attack craft

The only way Georgia could hold out here is with asymmetric warfare, which they've never trained in. I think after this experience that Georgia's military is going to become more irregular and focus on hurting the enemy to the point of abandoning its assault rather then outright defeating them conventionally, in a manner similar to what the Iranian military is today. 

Though that being said, how effective that would be against Russia is questionable as they don't have the same type of media and society that freaks out over 7 casualties. Israel is _still_ investigating an incident where 1 CH-53 transport helicopter got shot down over Lebanon 2 years ago, Russia has blown off the loss of one of its strategic bomber aircraft.


----------



## scottlw (Aug 10, 2008)

this is crazy still cant believe its going on...


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Aug 10, 2008)

Asymmetric warfare probably won't work against the Russians like it did in Afghanistan.  There are ways of dealing with guerilla fighters now, and if the Russians have the South Ossetians on their side like the US had the Northern Alliance against the Taliban, Georgia is boned.  And if the culture won't respond to it, then terrorism as a tactic is dead.

Anyhow those bombers have probably amortized themselves off the military's balance sheet a long time ago.  Russia vs. Georgia = The World's Most One Sided Fistfight Caught on Tape.


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 10, 2008)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080810/wl_mideast_afp/georgiarussiaunrestiraqmilitary

Oh my, how could we NOT have seen THIS coming? [/sarcasm]


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 10, 2008)

Rikudou said:
			
		

> Irrelevant.
> Nato - US= EU Defence.


Except NATO includes some non-EU countries and the EU has some non-NATO countries, not to mention real European defence can't be tied to the politics of the US.



> Georgia was likely to join it anyway. Either way, Russia can't attack ANY Nato or EU country. Within a few years it can't attack Georgia neither.


But NATO isn't some forums where anybody can just join. They have to be approved, and after accepting Latvia into NATO, that's probably as far low as NATO will go. They have to keep an air of capability to keep the peace, and having nations with an air force that can be counted on your hands, not to mention no offensive capability, doesn't really give that.



> There's a reason they fear being isolated. That's what the see happening. Their "Sphere of Influence" is dissapearing.


I think the fact that they're almost completely surrounded by hostile nations (China's not to friendly with them, and there's problems with immigration and mass importation in Siberia. Think of it like America's problems, but all from China) might be their bigger worry. 



			
				Toby_Christ said:
			
		

> Sexta: Yes, NATO is outdated, but it still needs to be in place. The problem is that in this case you can't act with it, since no NATO nation is under threat. Russia knows this, and is painfully taking advantage of it.


That's a good thing. I don't like NATO, it's become America's way of trying to control Europe.

EDIT: Also, Xion, if Toby_Christ is right, then I believe Khrushchev gave S. Ossetia to Georgia by splitting it in half rather than just giving it to Georgia.


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Aug 11, 2008)

Speaking of those Georgian troops, I read somewhere that the US was flying them home.   Doesn't that make US planes legit military targets for the Russians?  

To the Georgians credit they now have veterans returning from an assymetric war.  And who better to fight like a Guerilla then one who has fought them?


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

It seems that many people on this forum seem to believe that Russia will destroy Georgia or something close to that.  I seriously doubt that this conflict between Russia and Georgia will become any worse than this.  In my opinion this is only a show put on by Russia to show its military might.  Russia just wants to flex its military power to let the rest of the world see that Russia's military power is legit.  It wants to get back on the world stage military.

But Russia is not stupid.  It knows who the real Military Power is (US).  Russia would dare not to make this a full blown war.  It knows that the West (EU and US - United Nations) would not allow Russia to invade Georgia.  The West will defend a Democracy country.  As we all know the West has been growing weary of Putin-Russia.  They are worry that the return of the Soviet Union.  They don't want the Soviet Union to come back.  Russia understands that and would dare not giving the West a chance to attack Russia.  

If Russia makes this minor incursion into a full scale war, it will not only have to face Georgian's army but the world (US, EU - Nato).  If that happens, Russia will be set back a couple hundred years.  It will strip of its military (like Japan).  Its economy will falter as well.  And that will put Russia out of the global politics.  

So to sum it up, Russia is only trying to save face after Georgia attacked Russia's "humanitarian army".  A dictator country like Russia will want to save face by attacking back and at the same time flexing its military power to say to the world that Russia is here.  And the reason Russia is still dragging this because it also wants to save face because it doesn't want to withdraw immediately after Georgia and the rest of the world ask for a cease fire.  It knows that it has to but it wants to leave under its own term.  So it is all a big international political show.


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

The Space Cowboy said:


> Speaking of those Georgian troops, I read somewhere that the US was flying them home.   Doesn't that make US planes legit military targets for the Russians?
> 
> To the Georgians credit they now have veterans returning from an assymetric war.  And who better to fight like a Guerilla then one who has fought them?



The US is only flying US embassy's residents home.


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Aug 11, 2008)

No I believe they were flying Georgian troops home


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

Muishot, you're off. The US is in no position to respond- if they take troops out of Afghanistan/Iraq, then they're understrength there and any progress made could be lost. If they take the troops they have at home, that'd mean a full deployment of all troops, which would require a direct declaration of war, which Congress wouldn't allow. We'd have the troops deployed until the wars are over with the way troop levels are. That probably violates the contracts signed by some soldiers, and also wears out our military-who's going to sign up to be deployed to a war that may never end? That may lead to a draft.

NATO won't respond without US backing- the US has formed the backbone of every NATO action in forever. The only countries who might go would be Poland, and the Baltic states- they would get their asses handed to them handily, since only Poland has a viable airforce. The EU can't respond militarily, since there is no EU-wide military. The UN only deploys peacekeepers. So indeed, Georgia is by itself militarily. Now, politically there is more action that can be taken, but how effective will that be? Sanctions won't matter, Russia produces most of it's arms and oil, and sanctions would deplete Europe of it's oil supplier- something that won't happen. It's a very tricky situation for the West.


----------



## AbnormallyNormal (Aug 11, 2008)

i dont like how the US newsmedia presents this in such a biased and one sided way.... its all russia's fault and georgia is a perfect saint. thats what i get on TV news in USA all the time now. it pisses me off


----------



## Saufsoldat (Aug 11, 2008)

Russian troops advance from Abkhaz into Georgia 



> Russian troops have advanced from the breakaway region of Abkhazia into the town of Senaki, well inside Georgia.
> 
> 
> By Damien McElroy in Senaki, Georgia, and Jon Swaine
> ...



Now it's about more than just South Ossetia. Russia clearly doesn't want this to end just yet.


----------



## Nemesis (Aug 11, 2008)

Good for Russia, only a fool would stop at the borders and let Georgia regroup within firing distance of the regions.  Georgia is untrustworthy when it comes to cease fire agreements too. The nation made a ceasefire back before it kicked off big time then decided to use it to attack in full force including attacking Russian troops that are there under the UN.

NATO did not just stop their attacks in Kosovo.  They struck at everything that was in Serbia and Montenegro (Yugoslavia).  I know that there was no NATO ground troops during the campaign but that was political reasons not military and no doubt they would have gone after everything in Yugoslavia during the war too.



Sexta Espada said:


> EDIT: Also, Xion, if Haruka is right, then I believe Khrushchev gave S. Ossetia to Georgia by splitting it in half rather than just giving it to Georgia.



Yes Krushchev did split up Ossetia between Russia and Georgia SSRs when they were in the USSR.  It made the Ossetians completely pissed off by it too.  It was one of his many stupid decisions that actually made the Russian FSR a little weaker.  His other stupid mistake was to give Ukraine the Crimea from Russia which is almost 100% ethnically Russian.  (which gives tension to the Crimeans, Ukraine and Russia and at one point was likely to bring armed conflict in the future)


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

Good, that's what I thought but I didn't have any other source stating that.


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Muishot, you're off. The US is in no position to respond- if they take troops out of Afghanistan/Iraq, then they're understrength there and any progress made could be lost. If they take the troops they have at home, that'd mean a full deployment of all troops, which would require a direct declaration of war, which Congress wouldn't allow. We'd have the troops deployed until the wars are over with the way troop levels are. That probably violates the contracts signed by some soldiers, and also wears out our military-who's going to sign up to be deployed to a war that may never end? That may lead to a draft.
> 
> NATO won't respond without US backing- the US has formed the backbone of every NATO action in forever. The only countries who might go would be Poland, and the Baltic states- they would get their asses handed to them handily, since only Poland has a viable airforce. The EU can't respond militarily, since there is no EU-wide military. The UN only deploys peacekeepers. So indeed, Georgia is by itself militarily. Now, politically there is more action that can be taken, but how effective will that be? Sanctions won't matter, Russia produces most of it's arms and oil, and sanctions would deplete Europe of it's oil supplier- something that won't happen. It's a very tricky situation for the West.



You may be right.  Georgia might be by itself militarily at the moment since it is not really a war yet.  Russia hasn't really declare war on Georgia.  That is why I am saying Russia wants to push Georgia as much as it can but still making sure that it is not an outright invasion.  The West won't stand for it.  If its become a full scale war, the West would not stand for it.  Right now as it stands is just a minor incursion between neighbor countries.  And the West namely EU and US are asking for a political solution.  But as I said, Russia will not just withdraw immediately.  To protect its status or face, it needs to drag this on a little longer and withdraw in its own term.  It is like "I am Russia, Hear me Roar.  I can't be tell by others what to do kind of things."  

Obviously, you are much more inform than me about this.  I am just saying that this minor conflict between neighboring countries will not become a full blown war as many on this forum seem to indicate.  Similar to Palestinian and Isreal.  So in the end, it will be solve politically.


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 11, 2008)

meh.. as i predicted.. US is accusing Russia of trying to install a puppet leader.. and there u have Russia acusing US of orange revolution how ironic


----------



## vered (Aug 11, 2008)

have you heared the latest news??watch sky news.


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 11, 2008)

enlighten me


----------



## vered (Aug 11, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> enlighten me



it seems that Gori is lost,and the georgian army retreated to defend Tebilisi
also at least by what  Saakashvili says,russia has occupied most of georgia.
georgia is in true danger of total occupation,especially if the russians will arrive till Tibilisi.


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 11, 2008)

vered said:


> it seems that Gori is lost,and the georgian army retreated to defend Tebilisi
> also at least by what  Saakashvili says,russia has occupied most of georgia.
> georgia is in true danger of total occupation,especially if the russians will arrive till Tibilisi.



Well... Seems like the Kremlin really is reclaiming the Father of the People's homeland (Stalin)... Is it to make them pay for ever bringing him to life ?
That's some serious news. Georgia will either become a satellite state again or be left on the ground like a rape victim.


----------



## Surreal (Aug 11, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> Well... Seems like the Kremlin really is reclaiming the Father of the People's homeland (Stalin)... Is it to make them pay for ever bringing him to life ?
> That's some serious news. Georgia will either become a satellite state again or be left on the ground like a rape victim.



They can thank their government for a series of brilliant moves, such as breaking cease fire just hours after it was signed (....seriously.), killing Russian troops on their glorious march towards S.Ossetia capital and so on. They gave Russians all the pretext they needed. 

They have been annoying Putin for a while and now there is a great danger of Russia not stopping until Georgia is reduced to a pile of rubble. Russians were just waiting for an opportunity like this, to spit in NATO's face and to try and show everyone they are big bad meanies that should be respected and feared. 

And lol at people thinking NATO will actually go to war with Russia over this.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

muishot said:


> You may be right.  Georgia might be by itself militarily at the moment since it is not really a war yet.  Russia hasn't really declare war on Georgia.  That is why I am saying Russia wants to push Georgia as much as it can but still making sure that it is not an outright invasion.  The West won't stand for it.  If its become a full scale war, the West would not stand for it.  Right now as it stands is just a minor incursion between neighbor countries.  And the West namely EU and US are asking for a political solution.  But as I said, Russia will not just withdraw immediately.  To protect its status or face, it needs to drag this on a little longer and withdraw in its own term.  It is like "I am Russia, Hear me Roar.  I can't be tell by others what to do kind of things."
> 
> Obviously, you are much more inform than me about this.  I am just saying that this minor conflict between neighboring countries will not become a full blown war as many on this forum seem to indicate.  Similar to Palestinian and Isreal.  So in the end, it will be solve politically.


This is pretty much spot on-it's basically a move by Russia to tell the West to stay out of its remaining turf.


----------



## tinhamodic (Aug 11, 2008)

All this is just to confirm Putin wanting to put Russia back on the world power map.


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

Surreal said:


> They can thank their government for a series of brilliant moves, such as breaking cease fire just hours after it was signed (....seriously.), killing Russian troops on their glorious march towards S.Ossetia capital and so on. They gave Russians all the pretext they needed.
> 
> They have been annoying Putin for a while and now there is a great danger of Russia not stopping until Georgia is reduced to a pile of rubble. Russians were just waiting for an opportunity like this, to spit in NATO's face and to try and show everyone they are big bad meanies that should be respected and feared.
> 
> And lol at people thinking NATO will actually go to war with Russia over this.



Russia will be destroy if it does turn this into an outright invasion.  As I have said it above, Russia is treading the fine line between showing its military might and war.  America, not just Bush will not stand for this.  This time the President will have the will of the American people.  And if anything, if Russia cross the line, this could help America particularly the Bush Administration regain its standing that had been lost due to the Iraq war and the violation of the Geneva convention.  

If Russia makes this mistake, this will become a blessing for the Administration to go out with a bang and make everyone forget about Iraq and Guantanamo.  But Russia is not stupid.


----------



## Surreal (Aug 11, 2008)

Yes, I'm quite sure America, who is already stretched thin and has a billion of it's own problem will go in open war with a nuclear power. Over a regional conflict. For Georgia. That began this shit in the first place. It's quite convincing and very possible. 

Will of the American people? What is this, the 70ties? American people that has been fed with quite a big amount of bullshit about war on terror can barely tolerate wars against their enemies that "threaten them directly." I'm sure that American people will rise up to start a fight with worlds second most powerful nation that has nuclear capabilities for a country that most of them can't even find on a map.

"Hey, lets start a World War III over Georgia, where no one can actually win without horrible losses and catastrophic consequences." 

"Lulz, lets."


----------



## Rikudou (Aug 11, 2008)

tinhamodic said:


> All this is just to confirm Putin wanting to put Russia back on the world power map.



This is a short rise before an inevitable fall.
Russia's entire economy is based on production of oil and natural resources, which are all running out. When they run out they're fucked. Their whole economic growth is not based on production.
There are no famous Russian companies other than Gazprom. Their civil AND military technology is decades older than their rivals US and China and there's no way they are going to climb up to their level.

If it weren't for their nukes and gazillion outdated tanks and airplanes, they'd be getting raped by their neighbours, but they DO have immense amount of those old crappy things. So many that you'd still think twice about attacking them...


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

If they're so outdated, why the hell is the Western world and China still afraid of them? 

Also I do hope you realize all of China's growth has been fueled by buying Russian technology. China actually uses more Russian scientists than Russia itself.


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

Surreal said:


> Yes, I'm quite sure America, who is already stretched thin and has a billion of it's own problem will go in open war with a nuclear power. Over a regional conflict. For Georgia. That began this shit in the first place. It's quite convincing and very possible.
> 
> Will of the American people? What is this, the 70ties? American people that has been fed with quite a big amount of bullshit about war on terror can barely tolerate wars against their enemies that "threaten them directly." I'm sure that American people will rise up to start a fight with worlds second most powerful nation that has nuclear capabilities for a country that most of them can't even find on a map.
> 
> ...



Well see, my prediction is that Russia will stop before it gets any worse.  Russia knows it better than anyone.  And you make it sound like people will just use Nuclear bombs like a normal bombs.  If it really true, then the Soviet Union would have use it a long time ago.  Nuclear bombs as we all know are there for show.  And speaking of which, America has more nuclear bombs and our bombs are far more powerful than Russia's outdated bombs.  

The reason we didn't support the Iraq war because we were lie to.  You know the rest.  We supported invading Afghanistan.  Last time I check, America had never lost a war when the People support the President.  

And don't forget, to the West - US and EU, this is more than just a conflict between two neighbor countries.  This is a conflict between a Neo-Communist or Imperialist State (Russia) and a Sovereign, free, and Democratic state (Georgia).  And don't be fool by the fact that the US has lost some of its standing with other Western countries because of the Administration.  Eventhough there are disagreement between other Western countries (eu) and the US.  And it seems that other Western countries have been alienated by the US (all thanks to the Administration), but let not forget that they would still support the US.  

Between Russia and the US, who do you think the EU is more in line with?  Who do you think the EU will support?  The relation between EU and the US is like the relation between the Democrats and teh Republican.  Yes, there is bickering but they will unite once they are threaten by outside forces.  

And let point out the fact that Russia has been marginalize by the West.  The West had already wage propaganda war against Russia.  This will only give the West more ammunition.


----------



## Altron (Aug 11, 2008)

muishot said:


> *Well see, my prediction is that Russia will stop before it gets any worse.*  Russia knows it better than anyone.  And you make it sound like people will just use Nuclear bombs like a normal bombs.  If it really true, then the Soviet Union would have use it a long time ago.  Nuclear bombs as we all know are there for show.  And speaking of which, America has more nuclear bombs and our bombs are far more powerful than Russia's outdated bombs.
> 
> The reason we didn't support the Iraq war because we were lie to.  You know the rest.  We supported invading Afghanistan.  Last time I check, America had never lost a war when the People support the President.
> 
> ...






http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080810/wl_mideast_afp/georgiarussiaunrestiraqmilitary


Oh yeah Russia is gonna stop,


----------



## Surreal (Aug 11, 2008)

> And you make it sound like people will just use Nuclear bombs like a normal bombs. If it really true, then the Soviet Union would have use it a long time ago. Nuclear bombs as we all know are there for show. And speaking of which, America has more nuclear bombs and our bombs are far more powerful than Russia's outdated bombs.


You do realize that a conflict of that magnitude doesn't have t involve nukes at all to be devastating to the entire world? I'm not talking about nukes. I'm talking about war. 

And btw lol at "we have bigger and stronger bombs." You really think that matters in a nuclear conflict? It's enough for one to go off and set of a chain reaction and then you can wave the planet bai bai. 

"Our nukes are better then your nukes". Seriously, wtf?



> Last time I check, America had never lost a war when the People support the President.


Well obviously Bush is at a high point of his popularity so you need not worry. Not to mention the US nation is simply thrilled with the current war and can't wait for another one that is even more nonsensical then the current one.

(...?)



> Between Russia and the US, who do you think the EU is more in line with?  Who do you think the EU will support?



The one that supplies them with a damn near entirety of oil and gas. 

^______________________^

They will condemn the Russian actions but will not get involved. And whatever the EU does in this situation they will get screwed one way or another.

They won't side with anyone. 



> And let point out the fact that Russia has been marginalize by the West. The West had already wage propaganda war against Russia. This will only give the West more ammunition.


A rather disgusting propaganda that blames Russia for the exact same thing America does all the time. And a lot of the Western media conveniently leave out that it was Georgia that attacked Ossetia in the first place, breaking cease fire hours it was signed. They also leave out majority of Ossetians are Russian citizens. They also tend to leave out the past of this very long and bloody conflict.

Give me a break.


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

Altron said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080810/wl_mideast_afp/georgiarussiaunrestiraqmilitary
> 
> 
> Oh yeah Russia is gonna stop,



Apparently you didn't read my posts.  You are only reiterating what the Journalists reports.  They are reporting current events as they happen.  I take it a step further in my posts.  My posts involve an analysis of what will happen base on my understanding of the international politics and a prediction of what is going to come down.  

I don't believe the West will have to commit militarily as I don't think Russia will go that far.


----------



## Altron (Aug 11, 2008)

muishot said:


> Apparently you didn't read my posts.  You are only reiterating what the Journalists reports.  They are reporting current events as they happen.  I take it a step further in my posts.  My posts involve an analysis of what will happen base on my understanding of the international politics and a prediction of what is going to come down.
> 
> I don't believe the West will have to commit militarily as I don't think Russia will go that far.



Until you prove otherwise of Russia's halt of military operation and total withdrawal, you really can say otherwise. If you think the US should get involved rather than letting Russia and Georgia taking care of it themselves then your analysis fail. This is between Russia and Georgia and no one else, the US will not violate the territorial rights of both sides.

Stop watching western propaganda and fox news. 

*FYI Surreal read and destroyed your post not me.*


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

Surreal said:


> You do realize that a conflict of that magnitude doesn't have t involve nukes at all to be devastating to the entire world? I'm not talking about nukes. I'm talking about war.
> 
> And btw lol at "we have bigger and stronger bombs." You really think that matters in a nuclear conflict? It's enough for one to go off and set of a chain reaction and then you can wave the planet bai bai.
> 
> ...



First, let put it to rest.  I don't think it is going to get that far.  This will resolve politically and not militarily.  I don't understand why people keep focus on one particular point that I made and not taking it into the context of my other points.  

As for nuclear bombs, that is why I said no one is using nuclear bombs.  

And you believe that the EU will stay out of it because Russia is providing them with oil and gas?  The EU as well as anyone don't want another cold war.  You know what that means, the EU and the US won't just stand by and watch Russia reverting back to the old USSR.  They will join together for a Common Good.  Why is that?  The EU and America has common ideology.  Their view of the world are the same.  And that ties them together.  Therefore, if this does break out into a war, the EU will automatically be on the US side.  Gas and Oil will be the last thing they worry about.  Don't get into a false sense that oil and gas will protect Russia.  

That is why I compare the relationship between the EU and the US to be similar to the Democrats and the Republicans.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 11, 2008)

As much as I would LOVE for the US and EU to get involved they wont, they are going to sit on their asses and Georgia will be no more. Of course this will only encourage Russia to attack other baltic states as well.


----------



## muishot (Aug 11, 2008)

Altron said:


> Until you prove otherwise of Russia's halt of military operation and total withdrawal, you really can say otherwise. If you think the US should get involved rather than letting Russia and Georgia taking care of it themselves then your analysis fail. This is between Russia and Georgia and no one else, the US will not violate the territorial rights of both sides.
> 
> Stop watching western propaganda and fox news.
> 
> *FYI Surreal read and destroyed your post not me.*



For the record, I don't watch Fox news.  At the moment the US is letting Russia and Georgia resolve their conflict.  Right now the US and the EU are only acting as mediators.  In my posts, I made it clear that it will stop here.  And I say the reason Russia is still prolonging this because it wants to leave on its own term.  I don't think Russia will make this an outright war because the US and the EU will step in and Russia will stand to loose.  

What do we know as of right now, Russia is still not officially declare war on Georgia yet.  Why is that?  SO basically, this is a just a show of military power by Russia to tell the world that Russia is strong.  That it is here.  That it is now back on the world stage once again.  That is all.

And I forgot, whether you like it or not, Western propaganda against Russia is there.  Why is that?  And what does it means?


----------



## Altron (Aug 11, 2008)

muishot said:


> First, let put it to rest.  I don't think it is going to get that far.  This will resolve politically and not militarily.  I don't understand why people keep focus on one particular point that I made and not taking it into the context of my other points.
> 
> As for nuclear bombs, that is why I said no one is using nuclear bombs.
> 
> ...



why the hell do you keep thinking the US is gonna get involved? Seriously your analysis is pure bullshit. "Oh i am sure it will not escalate further, i am sure Russia is gonna stop soon, I am sure politically Russia is gonna stop", FYI if you have not checked the news, Russia has isolated the capital of Georgia and will probably bomb it into submission. So until you provide evidence of Russia starting to slow down its operation or withdraw automatically, your "analysis and prediction" are just random guessing *at best*. If anyone else will get involved in this it will be the EU, since they are geographically close to the conflict zone, and the US has too much shit right now to intervene in this, the US Can not intervene in every single damn conflict that pops up on the world just because it is just stupidity. Seriously Georgia is not even part of NATO yet and they are expecting NATO member nations to help them? *You realize what Russia is doing to Georgia is the same damn shit the US did to Iraq and Afghanistan, and also what people are condemning Israel for against Palestinians and Gaza. You realize the EU and most of the world is against Iraq and the US for still being there.*

Georgia started this crap, and needs to finish it. Seriously Georgia was stupid to think the US would back them up, against "Big bad Russia". They invited this conflict when they spilled first blood (Russian blood at that). If be some random act of bullshit that the US and EU get involved, and if a russian soldier dies from the bullet of an american of EU soldier then that is basically a declaration of war.

This shit is between Europe and should only be handled by those in Europe. The US has no right to interfere and it has nothing to do with the US, which is bogged down in other places and can not stretch its lines to thin. The US is busy with its own shit and Georgia needs to accept the consequences for what it did.



> For the record, I don't watch Fox news. At the moment the US is letting Russia and Georgia resolve their conflict. Right now the US and the EU are only acting as mediators. In my posts, I made it clear that it will stop here. And I say the reason Russia is still prolonging this because it wants to leave on its own term. I don't think Russia will make this an outright war because the US and the EU will step in and Russia will stand to loose.
> 
> What do we know as of right now*, Russia is still not officially declare war on Georgia yet*. Why is that? SO basically, this is a just a show of military power by Russia to tell the world that Russia is strong. That it is here. That it is now back on the world stage once again. That is all.



Russia right now is in perfect position to obliterate the Georgian Capital





> Reports say that Russian troops now control many key bridges and roads across Georgia, leaving the capital, Tbilisi, isolated.


----------



## Altron (Aug 11, 2008)

Link:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080811/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia



> Russian tanks roared deep into Georgia on Monday, launching a new western front in the conflict, and Russian planes staged air raids that sent people screaming and fleeing for cover in some towns.
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> The escalating warfare brought sharp words from President Bush, who pressed Moscow to accept an immediate cease-fire and pull its troops out to avert a "dramatic and brutal escalation" of violence in the former Soviet republic.
> ...


----------



## Nemesis (Aug 11, 2008)

Altron said:


> why the hell do you keep thinking the US is gonna get involved? Seriously your analysis is pure bullshit. "Oh i am sure it will not escalate further, i am sure Russia is gonna stop soon, I am sure politically Russia is gonna stop", FYI if you have not checked the news, Russia has isolated the capital of Georgia and will probably bomb it into submission. So until you provide evidence of Russia starting to slow down its operation or withdraw automatically, your "analysis and prediction" are just random guessing *at best*. If anyone else will get involved in this it will be the EU, since they are geographically close to the conflict zone, and the US has too much shit right now to intervene in this, the US Can not intervene in every single damn conflict that pops up on the world just because it is just stupidity. Seriously Georgia is not even part of NATO yet and they are expecting NATO member nations to help them? *You realize what Russia is doing to Georgia is the same damn shit the US did to Iraq and Afghanistan, and also what people are condemning Israel for against Palestinians and Gaza. You realize the EU and most of the world is against Iraq and the US for still being there.*
> 
> Georgia started this crap, and needs to finish it. Seriously Georgia was stupid to think the US would back them up, against "Big bad Russia". They invited this conflict when they spilled first blood (Russian blood at that). If be some random act of bullshit that the US and EU get involved, and if a russian soldier dies from the bullet of an american of EU soldier then that is basically a declaration of war.
> 
> ...



damn this post needs reps.

It actually seems that Russia have Vuluntarily (SP) pulled back from a base they took a few hours ago.  Right now the BBC is actually interviewing the Georgian president and he looks like shit right no.  No suprising as he is solely to blame for the state his country is in by attacking Russian peacekeepers under a UN mandate.

Also Georgia have blocked Russian channels and Russian journalists in the nation are being harrsed and beaten, with their own equipment being taken from them.  

Bush also has some nerve blaming this on russia when he on day 1 admitted it was Georgia that started this and the US vetoing Russias resolution for a cease fire BEFORE it got involved.

Also when this is over the Georgian president needs to be charged with war crimes after Georgia deliberately burned down many villages, war of agressio, Bombarding the Ossetian capital and killing upto 1400 Ossetian civilians including women & children (wow he could be karadic)


----------



## Xion (Aug 11, 2008)

Surreal said:


> Yes, I'm quite sure America, who is already stretched thin and has a billion of it's own problem will go in open war with a nuclear power. Over a regional conflict. For Georgia. That began this shit in the first place. It's quite convincing and very possible.
> 
> Will of the American people? What is this, the 70ties? American people that has been fed with quite a big amount of bullshit about war on terror can barely tolerate wars against their enemies that "threaten them directly." I'm sure that American people will rise up to start a fight with worlds second most powerful nation that has nuclear capabilities for a country that most of them can't even find on a map.
> 
> ...



Well it would be nice if Europe got off their pathetic asses and actually did something but they are just proving to the Caucasus and the rest of the developing nations that they are bullshit talk and no action.

And yet they have the gall to call us names when we are the ones that always have to do something to their WWII-era thinking. Let Russia take this, let them take that. Let's tone down our words for Russia since we are so reliant on them.

Grow a fucking pair Europe!


----------



## Surreal (Aug 11, 2008)

EU doesn't really hold any real military power by itself. And Russia has them by the balls when it comes to energy supply. EU isn't going to wage war ever again except someone openly attacks one of it's members. NATO interventions don't really count. 

They can say harsh words, call for cease fire and other pointless actions, but EU really doesn't have anything to back it up.


----------



## Xion (Aug 11, 2008)

Surreal said:


> EU doesn't really hold any real military power by itself. And Russia has them by the balls when it comes to energy supply. EU isn't going to wage war ever again except someone openly attacks one of it's members. NATO interventions don't really count.
> 
> They can say harsh words, call for cease fire and other pointless actions, but EU really doesn't have anything to back it up.



They want to "water down" their harsh words.

If they want the developing world to take them seriously and to no lose any credibility they should unite and isolate Russia.

Russia cannot stand opposed to the world forever...I think.


----------



## Nemesis (Aug 11, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> Well it would be nice if Europe got off their pathetic asses and actually did something but they are just proving to the Caucasus and the rest of the developing nations that they are bullshit talk and no action.
> 
> And yet they have the gall to call us names when we are the ones that always have to do something to their WWII-era thinking. Let Russia take this, let them take that. Let's tone down our words for Russia since we are so reliant on them.
> 
> Grow a fucking pair Europe!



Why the fuck should we help Georgia for the shit they started.  You don't punch the strongest kid in the park and then go crying to your friends when he beats the shit out of you.  Especially if they try to peacefully settle it first.


----------



## Surreal (Aug 11, 2008)

> They want to "water down" their harsh words.
> 
> If they want the developing world to take them seriously and to no lose any credibility they should unite and isolate Russia.


Actually, this isolation would harm them both and EU would probably suffer more. Europe gets most of it's oil and gas from Russia...sanctioning each other would would hurt EU immensely and cause a huge amount of problems. 



> Russia cannot stand opposed to the world forever...I think.


They can't, no. But as it is now, any kind of serious move against Russia...be it armed conflict or attack on their economy would cause damage to ALL sides involved. Georgia simply isn't worth it and Russia knows it.

They have been steamrolling Georgia going deeper and deeper into their territory and whats the reaction coming from the West? 

"This is bad! Bad, bad Russia! You better stop or we will...we will...stop! Bad Russians! Not good! Big meanies, no bully Georgia!"

Russia;

"Ye, okay." *sends another air raid*

Edit:

Nemesis is right. I have no idea what possessed Georgia to react the way they did. I guess their moronic government actually believed NATO will spring into action....or perhaps they hoped Russians will be full of understanding or merciful? What the fuck was going trough their minds?

This is like a 10 year old kid with one eye, one arm, one leg and severe case of asthma spits in the face of a deranged 20year old bully that spends most of his time in the gym when he isn't beating up people.


----------



## Xion (Aug 11, 2008)

Nemesis said:


> Why the fuck should we help Georgia for the shit they started.  You don't punch the strongest kid in the park and then go crying to your friends when he beats the shit out of you.  Especially if they try to peacefully settle it first.



Great job ignoring any common sense at all.

Yes, Georgia started it but there is ample evidence that Russia has been waiting for this moment, that they have executed a far disproportionate response, and that they DO NOT want a "peace treaty" of any sorts.

Besides South Ossetia is Georgian territory and now Russia is not just securing that region, they are in all probability heading even deeper inside Georgia.

So basically it is equivalent to a bully, bullying his younger brother a bit and then being shot in the head and anally raped by an older kid who liked the younger brother.


----------



## Surreal (Aug 11, 2008)

> Besides South Ossetia is Georgian territory and now Russia is not just securing that region



Mmmmm...unfortunately, it isn't that simple. Aside from the fact that most of its citizens are actually RUSSIANS and that they want to join Russia for decades....S.Ossetia has a history (look up on it, you will see what I'm talking about) that actually GIVES Russia the right to get involved. However, they obviously decided to kick it up a notch and tear entire Georgia apart.


----------



## Phoenix Wright (Aug 11, 2008)

Georgia wins the silver, Russia the gold.


----------



## Nemesis (Aug 11, 2008)

South Ossetia is in Georgia de jure but the Georgian gov has NEVER been in control of the region and no one who lives there wants anything to do with Georgia they want to be joined with Russia and more importantly North Ossetia.

Also when NATO went after Serbia did they just bomb Kosovo or all over Yugoslavia.  Why should Russia stop at the border which could leave it troops underthreat from Georgian fire.


----------



## Xion (Aug 11, 2008)

Surreal said:


> Mmmmm...unfortunately, it isn't that simple. Aside from the fact that most of its citizens are actually RUSSIANS and that they want to join Russia for decades....S.Ossetia has a history (look up on it, you will see what I'm talking about) that actually GIVES Russia the right to get involved. However, they obviously decided to kick it up a notch and tear entire Georgia apart.



I know it isn't that simple but if every separatist state had its way the world map would be very different. There are at the least dozens and at the most hundreds of these separatist areas. Not all of them can get their way. Kosovo can though. 

Besides...Russia doesn't give a darn about Ossetia. They just don't want a "Western satellite" in their sphere of influence.

Russia should inspire the U.S. to capture Cuba. I hear they have great beaches.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> Great job ignoring any common sense at all.
> 
> Yes, Georgia started it but there is ample evidence that Russia has been waiting for this moment, that they have executed a far disproportionate response, and that they DO NOT want a "peace treaty" of any sorts.


So wait a minute, since Finland has been waiting for a war with Russia for 60 years, if they responded to a Russian attack, they'd be just as guilty? 

Also there's something called rapid mobilization of troops, we have that here in the US as well. They wanted a peace treaty last week, but Georgia told them to fuck off so why should they listen now? 



> Besides South Ossetia is Georgian territory and now Russia is not just securing that region, they are in all probability heading even deeper inside Georgia.


And we did the same thing in Iraq. The difference here is that Russia was provoked; I'd bet a fair amount of money that what they do is secure their pipeline and kick some Georgian ass and then leave. They've dealt with insurgency before, and Russia learns its lessons fast and remembers them. 



> So basically it is equivalent to a bully, bullying his younger brother a bit and then being shot in the head and anally raped by an older kid who liked the younger brother.


Altron's idea made much more sense; the little kid, who thinks the group is behind kicks the biggest kid, and then cries when the rest of his "friends" don't help him.

As far as separatism goes:


----------



## Bender (Aug 11, 2008)

Seriously, just leave Georgia and Russia alone 

It's their business not ours


----------



## Xion (Aug 11, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> So wait a minute, since Finland has been waiting for a war with Russia for 60 years, if they responded to a Russian attack, they'd be just as guilty?



Has Finland been lining up for war with Russia for all these years? 

Have they advanced into Russia and refused to accept a peace treaty? 

Have they stated they demand a change in the Russian government?  



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Also there's something called rapid mobilization of troops, we have that here in the US as well. They wanted a peace treaty last week, but Georgia told them to fuck off so why should they listen now?





You're so biased this is not funny.

If what you said was the law of the land no wars would EVER end.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> And we did the same thing in Iraq. The difference here is that Russia was provoked; I'd bet a fair amount of money that what they do is secure their pipeline and kick some Georgian ass and then leave. They've dealt with insurgency before, and Russia learns its lessons fast and remembers them.



You really buy into the Russian propaganda machine don't you?

They don't even have a free press and you are willing to support their "reasons" over most of the West. Like the China-defenders. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Altron's idea made much more sense; the little kid, who thinks the group is behind kicks the biggest kid, and then cries when the rest of his "friends" don't help him.



So if someone picks on me I have a right to shoot them, rape their family, and salt their Earth? 

Are you a Creationist?


----------



## Gecka (Aug 11, 2008)

This won't end well


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> Has Finland been lining up for war with Russia for all these years?


Well the whole defence policy is geared towards Russia. However, Georgia has been taunting Russia for a while.



> Have they advanced into Russia and refused to accept a peace treaty?


Dude Georgia went in first. They killed first.



> Have they stated they demand a change in the Russian government?


Actually Finland would probably like there to be no Russian gov't, but that's a different story.

Also, where has Russia said this about Georgia? First time I've ever heard it.





> You're so biased this is not funny.
> 
> If what you said was the law of the land no wars would EVER end.



Rapid mobilization is exactly what it sounds like, ready for war one moment after being completely relaxed the minute before. Every military has some unit with such capability, and there's also something called intelligence. Seriously this stuff is nothing new and the US uses it alot. Should we kick ourselves for using it? Then why kick others.



> You really buy into the Russian propaganda machine don't you?
> 
> They don't even have a free press and you are willing to support their "reasons" over most of the West. Like the China-defenders.


Free press =/= correct press, although state run isn't accurate either. 

Also, the Western media has basically painted this as "ZOMG Ruskies invade little neighbor, their poor little innocent angels and we don't do shit." Also, most of the Western official response has been equally harsh in both sides, only extremely biased nations like Poland and the Baltics have outright condemned Russia and supported Georgia.



> So if someone picks on me I have a right to shoot them, rape their family, and salt their Earth?


You have the right to tell them to fuck off. If they hit you, well then go ahead hit them back.



> Are you a Creationist?


You wish don't you, Mr. Conservative


----------



## zabuza666 (Aug 11, 2008)

Gecka said:


> This won't end well



Either way I'm doing world order for legal studies and my final exams are coming up, the Russians couldn't have picked a better time to invade


----------



## dummy plug (Aug 11, 2008)

oh i saw this on the news last night, i heard the Georgian Army indeed attacked the Russian forces but now i think theyre asking for a truce in which the Russians obviously rejected...they're pretty bold to clash with the Russian Bear head on


----------



## raisin-gun (Aug 11, 2008)

guys are you serious? this is not for "attention" or "publicity" it's about The US' pressure on Georgia to join NATO and missile defense system against Russia for nuclear primacy.


----------



## Altron (Aug 11, 2008)

raisin-gun said:


> *guys are you serious? this is not for "attention" or "publicity" it's about The US' pressure on Georgia to join NATO and missile defense system against Russia for nuclear primacy.*


*
*

And another idiot enters the fray.


----------



## Xion (Aug 11, 2008)

Gecka said:
			
		

> This won't end well.



Post Count +1 



Sexta Espada said:


> Well the whole defence policy is geared towards Russia. However, Georgia has been taunting Russia for a while.



And this gives the (very) paranoid Russians a cause to decimate a country why?

Would you support the U.S. laying Venezuela or Iran to ruins? They have been taunting us for a while. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Dude Georgia went in first. They killed first.



First of all, the circumstances that led up to this are uncertain at best with both sides blaming the other. Second, even if they did, it was their own country, and Russia's response is enormously disproportionate and bellicose. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Actually Finland would probably like there to be no Russian gov't, but that's a different story.



Well I won't touch that one with a ten foot pole.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Also, where has Russia said this about Georgia? First time I've ever heard it.



Doesn't get any more unbiased than Canada: 

ONE SOURCE



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Rapid mobilization is exactly what it sounds like, ready for war one moment after being completely relaxed the minute before. Every military has some unit with such capability, and there's also something called intelligence. Seriously this stuff is nothing new and the US uses it alot. Should we kick ourselves for using it? Then why kick others.



I am talking about a pretext for war (*cough*...Chechnya...*cough*).

One source puts it nicely: 

But much of what I heard regarding the preparations was either on television or on sites earlier in the day. If I can come up with more details I will bring them to the table. But the pretext for war does not need conclusive evidence, just a simple understanding of the Soviet mindset and their verity when it comes to causes for war (Russian peacekeepers my ass...do you really believe that initial excuse? And now they are doing it for the separatists? Come on, they hate 99% of separatists.).



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Free press =/= correct press, although state run isn't accurate either.



So you think that a censored press is bound to be more correct and tell the truth? Please elaborate.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Also, the Western media has basically painted this as "ZOMG Ruskies invade little neighbor, their poor little innocent angels and we don't do shit." Also, most of the Western official response has been equally harsh in both sides, only extremely biased nations like Poland and the Baltics have outright condemned Russia and supported Georgia.



I know that that is the case with Western media so I am not going to defend Georgia outright, but Russia has gone far and beyond what they claimed to come in for. They have even rejected a peace treaty proposed by the French. They are in this to destroy Georgia's chances of joining NATO or being an ally of the West...nothing more, nothing less.

If anything, the South Ossetians are the victims here (although I vehemently hate separatists who have a call to arms) between Georgia and Russia which is using them as an excuse to invade Georgia.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> You have the right to tell them to fuck off. If they hit you, well then go ahead hit them back.



This is much more than a basic hit back.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> You wish don't you, Mr. Conservative



Such blasphemy. Don't use the C-word in this thread. 

Mr. Communist.


----------



## Bender (Aug 11, 2008)

raisin-gun said:


> guys are you serious? this is not for "attention" or "publicity" it's about The US' pressure on Georgia to join NATO and missile defense system against Russia for nuclear primacy.


----------



## The Space Cowboy (Aug 11, 2008)

It's rather difficult to take the Russian side of things.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 11, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> And this gives the (very) paranoid Russians a cause to decimate a country why?


Taunting alone doesn't give any reason to attack, however an attack by the other side does.



> Would you support the U.S. laying Venezuela or Iran to ruins? They have been taunting us for a while.


Well if they attack us first and, if we had the troops available then yes. Plus, we don't have to stay behind afterwards to rebuild them, so Iraq situations can be avoided. Win-win, for us anyway 





> First of all, the circumstances that led up to this are uncertain at best with both sides blaming the other. Second, even if they did, it was their own country, and Russia's response is enormously disproportionate and bellicose.


De facto independence. Not to mention, S. Ossetia had been autonomous since the USSR's times, so it was never really Georgian territory beyond being there on the map. 





> Doesn't get any more unbiased than Canada:
> 
> ONE SOURCE


Oh ok then. Those Canucks are onto the Ruskies- this can't be good..for them 

The awful things they must have in their minds





> I am talking about a pretext for war (*cough*...Chechnya...*cough*).
> 
> One source puts it nicely:
> 
> But much of what I heard regarding the preparations was either on television or on sites earlier in the day. If I can come up with more details I will bring them to the table. But the pretext for war does not need conclusive evidence, just a simple understanding of the Soviet mindset and their verity when it comes to causes for war (Russian peacekeepers my ass...do you really believe that initial excuse? And now they are doing it for the separatists? Come on, they hate 99% of separatists.).


But the separatists are Russian too- are you trying to incite ryssa on ryssa violence 

But still, the Russians are too drunk on vodka to come up with all these complicated schemes. The only person not drunk at any time in the country is the leader, and Putin doesn't care enough about the Georgians to take such measures. Why isn't 10 dead Russians believable to the West?





> So you think that a censored press is bound to be more correct and tell the truth? Please elaborate.


No, what I meant was the just because a country has free press doesn't mean everything its press says will be true- don't get me wrong, I like free press, but that means every bozo that can write and get someone to host his stuff on the net or print it can put out his version of events, no matter how distorted.





> I know that that is the case with Western media so I am not going to defend Georgia outright, but Russia has gone far and beyond what they claimed to come in for. They have even rejected a peace treaty proposed by the French. They are in this to destroy Georgia's chances of joining NATO or being an ally of the West...nothing more, nothing less.


Maybe that's a good thing, we don't have to give more of our tax dollars to some shithole nation and we can spend it on fixing ourselves.



> If anything, the South Ossetians are the victims here (although I vehemently hate separatists who have a call to arms) between Georgia and Russia which is using them as an excuse to invade Georgia.


Yeah, they're the ones who will be the most pissed off at the end of this.





> This is much more than a basic hit back.


I never said it had to be only one hit-a couple extra a kick will teach them their lesson 





> Such blasphemy. Don't use the C-word in this thread.
> 
> Mr. Communist.


That's Mr. Commie to you, Mr. Connie


----------



## Xion (Aug 12, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Taunting alone doesn't give any reason to attack, however an attack by the other side does.



First, please cite me an official source that says that Georgia deliberately attacked Russia.

Second, even if it were so it is still a disproportionate response.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Well if they attack us first and, if we had the troops available then yes. Plus, we don't have to stay behind afterwards to rebuild them, so Iraq situations can be avoided. Win-win, for us anyway



We try that and Europe would be the first to condemn us. Worst than Russia now by far. 

Oh the hypocrisy!



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> De facto independence. Not to mention, S. Ossetia had been autonomous since the USSR's times, so it was never really Georgian territory beyond being there on the map.



De jure a part of Georgia. Russia should mind its fucking business. It is just sympathetic to separatists against its antagonists and brutally suppresses all others.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> But still, the Russians are too drunk on vodka to come up with all these complicated schemes. The only person not drunk at any time in the country is the leader, and Putin doesn't care enough about the Georgians to take such measures. Why isn't 10 dead Russians believable to the West?



Wait did you just call Putin the leader?



I guess Puppetedev is not the leader after all.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> No, what I meant was the just because a country has free press doesn't mean everything its press says will be true- don't get me wrong, I like free press, but that means every bozo that can write and get someone to host his stuff on the net or print it can put out his version of events, no matter how distorted.



That is true of everything though. My point was that a free press that can actually check its sources is a lot better than one that is essentially government-controlled.

Sure there is bias and there can be errors, but the difference between a free press and a controlled one is enormous. You should know since your country has one of the freest presses in the world.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> That's Mr. Commie to you, Mr. Connie


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 12, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> First, please cite me an official source that says that Georgia deliberately attacked Russia.
> 
> Second, even if it were so it is still a disproportionate response.


They didn't attack Russia itself, but they killed 10 soldiers-even wiki says it, and the admins are really bitchy about this kind of thing, so go look there 





> We try that and Europe would be the first to condemn us. Worst than Russia now by far.
> 
> Oh the hypocrisy!


What hypocrisy? Defending your nation ain't hypocrisy. Unless you're talking about sumin else.





> De jure a part of Georgia. Russia should mind its fucking business. It is just sympathetic to separatists against its antagonists and brutally suppresses all others.


Technically, S. Ossetia should be put back with N. Ossetia to help heal some old Cold War wounds left by the USSR. Wouldn't you agree?




> Wait did you just call Putin the leader?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess Puppetedev is not the leader after all.


Na that guy's drunk too, but he's Putin's friend so he gets to do it in the Kremlin 





> That is true of everything though. My point was that a free press that can actually check its sources is a lot better than one that is essentially government-controlled.
> 
> Sure there is bias and there can be errors, but the difference between a free press and a controlled one is enormous. You should know since your country has one of the freest presses in the world.


Finland has free everything, except immigration they go to the really backwards areas to keep them away from harming any important Finns spread their culture 

But yeah, free press is superior to state controlled but it still has to be inspected to ensure maximum truthiness.



Yeah I related conservatives to communists, but if this anything like the thing with your mother this will simply end up with me being a happy fool and you being a seething loaf of political jargon


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 12, 2008)

vered said:


> it seems that Gori is lost,and the georgian army retreated to defend Tebilisi
> also at least by what  Saakashvili says,russia has occupied most of georgia.
> georgia is in true danger of total occupation,especially if the russians will arrive till Tibilisi.



Russia is trying to make saakashvili look bad.. which is working perfectly.. i guess the people will be forced to choose a pro Russian president now.. afterall they wont sit at the table with any pro US


----------



## Raiden (Aug 12, 2008)

^Yeah, an experienced US analyst said on CNN that it looks like Russia wants to overthrow Georgia's government and place a puppet there to control the Republic (not that it takes an analyst to realize that this is possible).


----------



## Surreal (Aug 12, 2008)

Perhaps they are ready to stop~


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

Better than nothing at least


----------



## Surreal (Aug 12, 2008)

> TBLISI, Georgia - Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered an end to the military operation in Georgia on Tuesday, the Kremlin said. Medvedev said the military has punished Georgia and restored security for civilians and Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia.
> But he ordered the military Tuesday to defend itself and quash any aggressive action and armed resistance from Georgian forces.



We will see how much this holds today.


----------



## MrCinos (Aug 12, 2008)

The only force which attacking Georgia now is Abkhazia's.
I don't even want to read what west press writing about this situation. Russia completely innocence in this war. And there were no actions toward harming georgians civilians in Russia or Georgia (when russians in Georgia in a very dangerous position and can't leave the country).
What I also don't like is that there are US's instructors in Georgia's army who still helping georgia's troops (there were seen black people among georgian's army, the whole deployment of Georgia's troops by US, etc). Basically it's a help to murderer/terrorist/etc (Georgian's president). I hope it wouldn't escalate to something bigger.



			
				Tleilaxu said:
			
		

> Of course this will only encourage Russia to attack other baltic states as well.


I lol'd. That would be the case if only those other baltic states attack and kill helpless russian citizens, then yes. 
Russia will avoid any unnecessary war conflicts since our economic state isn't that good. And money should be spended on other, much more important issues.


P.S. Sorry for terrible english.


----------



## Soulbadguy (Aug 12, 2008)

Still very confused all about can some one help me out.

There press about has really low for a war for some reason(i think alot of people still think it's the state.)

1.Can Georgia can stand up to Russia(or is it one sided)
2.What is the USA doing in/about this.


----------



## MrCinos (Aug 12, 2008)

*Soulbadguy*:  - it's not the only one of USA's involment.



> 11/08/2008 - 14:37:00
> Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin today accused the United States of adding to the chaos in Georgia by airlifting home its troops serving in Iraq.
> 
> Mr Putin said the US move would hamper efforts to solve the conflict over South Ossetia.
> ...



Also, 





> I’ve expressed my grave concern about the disproportionate response of Russia and that we strongly condemn the *bombing outside of South Ossetia*,” Bush said in an interview with NBC Sports.


 So, bombing russians *inside* of South Ossetia is alright. And the answer to mass murdering civilians by Georgia is somehow "disproportionate" from Russia's side. Can't see logic here.

I didn't expect that Bush would help people similiar to Saddam Husein =\


----------



## Raiden (Aug 12, 2008)

Unfortunately, the fighting has not stopped despite the Russian President's orders:


----------



## MrCinos (Aug 12, 2008)

"Russian officials denied Georgia's claims." 
So it isn't a fact. You cannot trust Georgia since they are lied already in that conflict, and several times: like saying that russians first attacked and when they killed russians after cease-fire agreement.

None of the Russian military force attacking Georgia now, only Abkhazia decided to attack and of course, civilians wouldn't be targeted (when they surrounded 2000-3000 georgians soldiers they even leaved them an exit for retreat if they wanted to retreat - that was the last I heard about current situation).

Also, lol at photo in that article. Seems like completely irrelevant.

How I hate all of that anti-Russia propaganda


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

MrCinos said:


> "Russian officials denied Georgia's claims."
> So it isn't a fact. You cannot trust Georgia since they are lied already in that conflict, and several times: like saying that russians first attacked and when they killed russians after cease-fire agreement.
> 
> None of the Russian military force attacking Georgia now, only Abkhazia decided to attack and of course, civilians wouldn't be targeted (when they surrounded 2000-3000 georgians soldiers they even leaved them an exit for retreat if they wanted to retreat - that was the last I heard about current situation).
> ...



Whether you like it or not, as long as Russia is not a truly democratic state, there will always be anti-Russia propaganda by the West.  And Russia knows this real well.  This is why I said from my previous posts that all this is just a show of force by Russia to show the world that Russia is back.  And it will drags this conflict on a little while longer so that it can withdrew in its own terms.  It doesn't want to leave the impression that Russia is weak by cease fire and withdrew immediately after the international communities call for it.  

Russia doesn't want to face the West that is why it still hasn't officially declare war against Georgia.  And it denied all these accusations by Georgian's President.  I acknowledged that the Georgian's President exaggerate a lot of things.  He said that Russia had occupied Gori but US military intelligence with its satellite and drone plan that can literally capture video in any particular part of the world saw no indication of that.  The whole point is that Russia knows the West is biased towards it and it is treading a fine line between showing its military might and an all out war.  

P.S. *Altron*, I am still waiting for all this to be over with and by then I will said "I told you so."  You called my analysis and prediction "bullshit or wild guess at best" but it will turn out to be 100 percent correct.  This debate just reveals the difference between you and I.


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 12, 2008)

Tleilaxu said:


> As much as I would LOVE for the US and EU to get involved they wont, they are going to sit on their asses and Georgia will be no more. Of course this will only encourage Russia to attack *other baltic states as well*.



LOL, no you're wrong here. Georgia, as MANY people said, will only get a formal support but no military help because they went and started shit. I mean, they kinda looked for it. After almost a century spent with Russia, one would think they'd know about not fucking with them, heh. They're not in the EU, and not in the NATO.

Baltic States. They are in the EU, well on their way to the NATO. Just being in the EU means that other members are obliged to help them against an invasion. That's in the contract. Sure, we'll (EU) be fucked by Russia, but attack on a EU member leads to military obligations from the other members.

BUT, in the case they'd start a war with Russia, I think the other members don't have to go. Its a clause about defense only. 

I think I should go dig for material from the Commission (I hate it... tons of documentation to look for, argh...), I got curious now...


----------



## Princess Mahi (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm guessing that this isn't going to end as "peacefully" as planned.


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

muishot said:


> P.S. *Altron*, *I am still waiting for all this to be over with and by then I will said "I told you so."  You called my analysis and prediction "bullshit or wild guess at best" but it will turn out to be 100 percent correct.  This debate just reveals the difference between you and I*.



The difference between you and I is that like Tleilaxu live in a fantasy world, where consequences don't happen and you always believe every conflcit the US must get involved and that other countries especially Russia are not gonna do a thing about.. I suggest you both get your head out of your ass and back into reality.

And you never even bothered to *give me a reply to that post*, either you know you are wrong or you like Tleilaxu and Chill_Bro are just plain stupid.

Either way until we see otherwise and "Proof" of your analysis, have a nice hot cup of STFU.

Even after Russia's president ordered them to stop they are still going 
Oh and if Georgia's capitol is in ruins or most or part of Georgia are destroyed, even when the Russian *hopefully* stops, your analysis is still wrong. Because you said it would stop before it escalates further though if we hear that Georgia has been ransacked and pretty beaten up you still lose.  So you still can't say i told you so.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 12, 2008)

Baltics are in NATO, however the response from NATO could be doubtful- would Germany and France send their troops to fight for someone else's land? Would Denmark, or the Netherlands? Poland would respond, but otherwise NATO may not be serious about defending the Baltic states.


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Baltics are in NATO, however the response from NATO could be doubtful- would Germany and France send their troops to fight for someone else's land? Would Denmark, or the Netherlands? Poland would respond, but otherwise NATO may not be serious about defending the Baltic states.



Actually Italy stated it was ready to deploy troops if necessary. I think it is one of the links, i posted or someone else, though Italy has stated it has troops prepared.


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 12, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Baltics are in NATO, however the response from NATO could be doubtful- would Germany and France send their troops to fight for someone else's land? Would Denmark, or the Netherlands? Poland would respond, but otherwise NATO may not be serious about defending the Baltic states.



I know it's wiki material, so it can't be taken for granted, but it should not be dismissed, since it can give hints on further search (I was lazy, OK)

The Baltic States are part of "Battle Groups" : 

They can be consisting of one nation, or several, and a One-Nation battle group can also be part of a larger battle group (meh...) 

Fuck ! Even Norway is in one of them !??? 

Basically, they'd still get more help than Georgia ever would. But a point they have : they have very little reason to mess with Russia (however, Russia has reasons to try to fuck them, now they're EU and NATO members, so the bear won't try to smash those bees too fast)


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 12, 2008)

Italy isn't much of a major power, but Italy and Poland together might make a Russian army group turn back, but if the initial army is reinforced then it's not gonna do much good, and air superiority will depend on how much Russia puts in to conquering the Baltics.

T4R0K, those battle groups aren't a guaranteed thing either. The article doesn't mention it, but as I understand it the participating nations must approve of the mission before the troops can be deployed- believe the EU constitution fixed that, but since it's not in place yet, those battlegroups are still up in the air regarding actual deployment.


----------



## T4R0K (Aug 12, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> T4R0K, those battle groups aren't a guaranteed thing either. The article doesn't mention it, but as I understand it the participating nations must approve of the mission before the troops can be deployed- believe the EU constitution fixed that, but since it's not in place yet, those battlegroups are still up in the air regarding actual deployment.



Better than nothing.

And if EU members think only about their asses while the Reds are marching over Eastern Europe en route for the atlantic, they may just as well suicide like the ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) they are (the EU politicians). And I don't think they're ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".), so their would be still a decent fight for time and survival.

...

Fuck, why are we even projecting a possible war with Russia ? What idiot would it take to have a war start with them ? Thinking about learning cyrillics and praising Putin gives me a headache.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 12, 2008)

True.


Although Cyrillic isn't that bad.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 12, 2008)

Looks like its coming to a close


----------



## Mael (Aug 12, 2008)

Diceman said:


> Looks like its coming to a close



Thank God.  I hope this comes into effect since Russia is already hard to trust and the rest of the region is already a figurative powder keg.  I hope this serves as some sort of lesson next time this happens, which I pray to God doesn't happen.

Makes me wonder how the US/EU will respond to another possible scenario like this.  I can see how Kosovo/South Ossetia is almost an equal deal, but then again Russia is a little less subtle than NATO seems to be.  Props to Medvedev for not following the Putin wagon and calling for an end to aggression.  Hopefully he won't end up being Putin's puppet like so many think he's going to be.


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

Diceman said:


> Looks like its coming to a close




Finally some good news. It could not have come at a better time, as Russia seemed it was ready to stomp on the capital of Georgia, since it already launched air attacks at Tbilisi. Though Georgia is still hit pretty hard by the Russian Army.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> Finally some good news. It could not have come at a better time, as Russia seemed it was ready to stomp on the capital of Georgia, since it already launched air attacks at Tbilisi. Though Georgia is still hit pretty hard by the Russian Army.



They gave their message.''Use us as an *excuse* to get close to NATO or EU,we will curbstomp you''


----------



## Xion (Aug 12, 2008)

MrCinos said:


> I don't even want to read what west press writing about this situation. Russia completely innocence in this war.



Oh you incredibly biased Russian sheep.

Your press is not free and your country is not free so don't pretend it is. I can back that up with respected international indices.

And just so you know, I am part Russian (it's where I get some of my good looks from ). I also tend towards impartiality however and despise totalitarianism. That is why I saw the Russian response and reasoning as grossly disproportionate.



			
				MrCinos said:
			
		

> And there were no actions toward harming georgians civilians in Russia or Georgia (when russians in Georgia in a very dangerous position and can't leave the country).



Yes. That youth camp Russia bombed was such a military target. 



			
				MrCinos said:
			
		

> What I also don't like is that there are US's instructors in Georgia's army who still helping georgia's troops (there were seen black people among georgian's army, the whole deployment of Georgia's troops by US, etc). Basically it's a help to murderer/terrorist/etc (Georgian's president). I hope it wouldn't escalate to something bigger.



Go back to Fairy Vearth.

Unlike the rest of Europe, we actually wanted to help Georgia in a meaningful way to the best of our ability.



Sexta Espada said:


> They didn't attack Russia itself, but they killed 10 soldiers-even wiki says it, and the admins are really bitchy about this kind of thing, so go look there



No comment on the disproportionate-ness though. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> What hypocrisy? Defending your nation ain't hypocrisy. Unless you're talking about sumin else.



No it isn't, but if we invaded Cuba because a soldier from Cuba shot at a U.S. ship then yes it would be. 

Because then Europe would say very bad things about us. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Technically, S. Ossetia should be put back with N. Ossetia to help heal some old Cold War wounds left by the USSR. Wouldn't you agree?



One nation of Ossetia would be cool.

Unfortunately Russia and Georgia would not like that. 

They would actually find agreement there. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Na that guy's drunk too, but he's Putin's friend so he gets to do it in the Kremlin



Like Bush and Cheney, only Cheney is really in control. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Finland has free everything, except immigration they go to the really backwards areas to keep them away from harming any important Finns spread their culture
> 
> But yeah, free press is superior to state controlled but it still has to be inspected to ensure maximum truthiness.



I can't argue with a tautology.



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> Yeah I related conservatives to communists, but if this anything like the thing with your mother this will simply end up with me being a happy fool and you being a seething loaf of political jargon



Don' u be talkin' 'bout my momma. 

P.S. Russia has "stopped" the war. They got what they came for. Showing the world how big their dick is.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> The difference between you and I is that like Tleilaxu live in a fantasy world, where consequences don't happen and you always believe every conflcit the US must get involved and that other countries especially Russia are not gonna do a thing about.. I suggest you both get your head out of your ass and back into reality.
> 
> And you never even bothered to *give me a reply to that post*, either you know you are wrong or you like Tleilaxu and Chill_Bro are just plain stupid.
> 
> ...



You said that Russia is destroying most of Georgia based on those accusations by Georgian's President.  But why in the world is Russia denying most of those?  Why doesn't Russia officially declared war against Georgia and doing those outrageous things that Russia had been known of doing?  Russia knows real well that it doesn't want the US to get involve.  Cause Once the US got into the matter, Russia is screw.  

The reality is the US is still the Police of the World.  We have lost that edge a little all thanks to Bush but we still are the dominant force.  We can unilaterally invade other country but Russia can't just invade Georgia.  The reason we let Russia have its way with Georgia because Georgia attacked first.  If its the other way around, you can bet your ass, America is already there.  

I admit that Iraq has become our Achilles Heel and that is the US has not yet get involve in this.  And this is one of the reason why I don't like Bush.  He cost us our moral high ground.  That is why we are waiting for Russia to cause more damage such as civilian casualties.  But as I predict, it is not going to happen.  SO far Russia only bomb a few military bases and houses.  

You want to talk tough.  Let talk about why if the US gets involve militarily Russia will be screw.   There is no way in the world Russia can attack the US or hope to reach US's soil.  We are protected by 2 vast oceans.  We have the most advance military and the most powerful Navy in the world.  No one can compete with us militarily especially on the open sea.  

We however, can march into Moscow anytime we want.  We have troops station around Russia and can attack Russia on notice.  We have USS Carriers and Nuclear subs ready to annihilate Russia.  You know as well as I do that Russia is not strong compare to the US.  It can bully Russia's neighboring countries but it can't even hope to mess with the US.  Russia knows that we already have troops station in all those strategic areas around Russia and can attack anytime.  *Russia is like an animal that is cornered.  * We want to put the icing on the cake by including Georgia into Nato and the EU.  If we succeed, Russia is like in prison.  

If Russia want to use Nuclear Bombs.  We don't want it to get that far but if Nuclear bomb showdown is inevitable, we will not hesitate to wipe Russia off the face of the Earth.  Nuclear Bombs will affect us all but to lessen the damage we will attack first.  All it take is a few bombs to destroy Russia before it can drop its bombs on our Allies because it can't drop it on the US.  But even if it can drop a few bombs on neighboring countries, we can just say that those countries are the greatest of heroes and they made the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good.  Because of their sacrifices, we are able to defeat the Russian Empire.  Yes, we are a Fox.  We are very sly and cunning.  

We are an advance and civilize Nation and that is why we want to conduct ourselves civilly.  We don't want to cause undue damage to other countries but if we have to, we can be as bad as any other brutal dictators or even worse.  Think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  That is how brutal we can be.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> Translation: _I am a typical warmongering American, who does not give a damn about the world. I think George W. Bush is the god of the world, and the USA has the right to violate other countries and police the world. Let's also not forget i want to see Russia destroyed because they are bad and USA are good and i want to see World War III become a Reality. I love giving George W. Bush a blowjob._
> 
> Please get your head out of your ass, and stop sucking George Bush's Dick.



You don't have a clue how much I hate Bush.  But that is the way it is.  I am just telling you the reality.  You may not like it, but it is the reality.  Until someone take over (maybe China but not anytime soon).  Right now, we are the Dominant Power and other countries have to answer to us.  You can despise it as much as you want, but you have to face it.  

That is why my prediction and analysis are 100 percent correct.  Unlike you, I include all the factors into my analysis.  Whereas, you only take the situation between Russia and Georgia in isolation and ignore all the other factors involve.  That is why what you said is neither wrong nor right.  It is correct because it is current event.  You are basically reporting what is happening.  As for myself, I am making a prediction and analysis of what is going to happen.


----------



## Mael (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> Translation: *I am a typical warmongering American, who does not give a damn about the world. I think George W. Bush is the god of the world, and the USA has the right to violate other countries and police the world. Let's also not forget i want to see Russia destroyed because they are bad and USA are good and i want to see World War III become a Reality. I love giving George W. Bush a blowjob.*
> 
> Please get your head out of your ass, and stop sucking George Bush's Dick.



Please understand that this is not the attitude of *all* Americans.  Sure I loevs mah Speez Mareenz but they are the personification of awesome, not American policies.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

WalkingMaelstrom said:


> Please understand that this is not the attitude of *all* Americans.  Sure I loevs mah Speez Mareenz but they are the personification of awesome, not American policies.



Why do you apologize to him?  He has an attitude toward us too.  He likes to talk tough, we have to talk tough back otherwise he thinks we are weak.


----------



## Surreal (Aug 12, 2008)

I just love how you put dominant power in capital letters. It's...it's...simply wonderful.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> , yeah "They have to listen to us", that goes in line with Iran telling USA to "Fuck off, and go to hell".  I am sure Iran is gonna listen to us.
> 
> 
> *I am an american as well, *so don't worry . I just hate the stupid things americans post here, and give us americans a bad image.
> ...



You are an American too huh?  I somehow doubt that because of how you passionately defend Russia as if you are Russian yourself.  If you are what you claim to be, a neutral spectator who doesn't want to give into American's bias toward Russia, you shouldn't be so bias toward Georgia.  You are as bias as well.  You defend Russia while belittling Georgia.  And since you take Russia side instead of being a neutral party giving voice to both sides or taking America side, and you claim to be an American, doesn't that make you a traitor?

Don't worry, Iran will give in.  It is just that Bush is not doing a good job at it but Iran will give in eventually during the next Administration.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> , yeah "They have to listen to us", that goes in line with Iran telling USA to "Fuck off, and go to hell".  I am sure Iran is gonna listen to us.
> 
> 
> *I am an american as well, *so don't worry . I just hate the stupid things americans post here, and give us americans a bad image.
> ...



You are an American too huh?  I somehow doubt that because of how you passionately defend Russia as if you are Russian yourself.  If you are what you claim to be, a neutral spectator who doesn't want to give into American's bias toward Russia, you shouldn't be so bias toward Georgia.  You are as bias as well.  You defend Russia while belittling Georgia.  And since you take Russia side instead of being a neutral party giving voice to both sides or taking America side, and you claim to be an American, doesn't that make you a traitor?

Don't worry, Iran will give in.  It is just that Bush is not doing a good job at it but Iran will give in eventually during the next Administration.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm sensing a ''No True Scotsman'' coming


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

Diceman said:


> I'm sensing a ''No True Scotsman'' coming



Guess All american citizens that don't follow muishot's defintion of an American citizen and wants World Wars is a traitor.


----------



## Xion (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> at calling me a traitor because i call the US for what it really is right now *"A country as bad as Russia, with a government that stomps on our constitution and rights, that violates another country, and thinks it is invicible".*



That = proof that you apparently completely ignorant to international indices and quantitative measures of democratic tendencies.

Congrats Troll of the Cafe.


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> That = proof that you apparently completely ignorant to international indices and quantitative measures of democratic tendencies.
> 
> Congrats Troll of the Cafe.



Why Thank You, I will take that name to heart. 

Though i can't match Believe It's level.


----------



## Xion (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> Why Thank You, I will take that name to heart.
> 
> Though i can't match Believe It's level.



Dammit. In meaning to insult you I only encouraged your trolldom.


----------



## Elim Rawne (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> Why Thank You, I will take that name to heart.
> 
> Though i can't match Believe It's level.



He is kinda right.Venezuella is much more of a better comparison than Russia


----------



## Xion (Aug 12, 2008)

Diceman said:


> He is kinda right.Venezuella is much more of a better comparison than Russia



Where's the "lol wut" pic when you need it?


----------



## Mael (Aug 12, 2008)

Ok...now I think I'm going to stay out of this one.  More a problem with which side to take rather than saying something that'll piss a ton of people off.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 12, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> No comment on the disproportionate-ness though.


Disproportionate should be a synonym for Russian. 





> No it isn't, but if we invaded Cuba because a soldier from Cuba shot at a U.S. ship then yes it would be.
> 
> Because then Europe would say very bad things about us.


Oh well, that's them and not me, stop trying to lump me in with those grabasses. 



> One nation of Ossetia would be cool.


Well if it gets it's independence, it'd be more likely, as I recalled N, Ossetia being autonomous, so a decision like that would be it's own decision, although Russia would probably let it in if it's not.



> Unfortunately Russia and Georgia would not like that.
> 
> They would actually find agreement there.


So we put some Russophobic in office there and then put it through 

The other solution is getting rid of both Ossetias altogether 





> Like Bush and Cheney, only Cheney is really in control.


ZOMG I knew it. So all those people making fun of my tin hat WERE wrong 





> I can't argue with a tautology.


Are you making fun of me 





> Don' u be talkin' 'bout my momma.


She's not yours anymoar 



> P.S. Russia has "stopped" the war. They got what they came for. Showing the world how big their dick is.


I was expecting a penis joke relating to the pipeline. You've disappointed me good sir.


----------



## Altron (Aug 12, 2008)

Diceman said:


> He is kinda right.Venezuella is much more of a better comparison than Russia



Meh...whatever...the fact that Russia did not obliterate Georgia is a miracle in itself.


----------



## Xion (Aug 12, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> Are you making fun of me



If I was disagreeing with you I would have called it a contradiction and not a tautology. 

Perhaps a contingent sentence. 



			
				Sexta Espada said:
			
		

> I was expecting a penis joke relating to the pipeline. You've disappointed me good sir.



I can't nail it over and over again every time.


----------



## warp drive (Aug 12, 2008)

muishot said:


> You said that Russia is destroying most of Georgia based on those accusations by Georgian's President.  But why in the world is Russia denying most of those?  Why doesn't Russia officially declared war against Georgia and doing those outrageous things that Russia had been known of doing?  Russia knows real well that it doesn't want the US to get involve.  Cause Once the US got into the matter, Russia is screw.
> 
> The reality is the US is still the Police of the World.  We have lost that edge a little all thanks to Bush but we still are the dominant force.  We can unilaterally invade other country but Russia can't just invade Georgia.  The reason we let Russia have its way with Georgia because Georgia attacked first.  If its the other way around, you can bet your ass, America is already there.
> 
> ...



I'm still debating whether to cry or laugh at your post.   ?  ? (cry from sorrow or laugh at you stupidity lack of evidence)

True, America is the leading nation that, _most _ (hey no human is subject to perfection) of the time, stands for what's righteous and prestigious. In fact, has it not been for us South Korea wouldn't be different than what North Korea _is _right now. Nevertheless, it's also a fact that terrorism has become _more _than a reality of invade-and-win but an excruciating outcome of invade-search-and...wait. In the mean time, our soldiers with no much of a progress to capture a few simple mortals - that by humanitarian law must be put to death - died along with them. The war in Iraq has cost us - I'm don't even know if I'm spelling it right - *thrillions*, in addition to the energy ($$) crisis; we simply cannot afford a war with Russia, politacally and economically speaking - as in right now! Russia is *not* a push-over country, we face a strong nation with the capacity not far from us, which we are utterly misjudging!

Before you speak, you should recall or perhaps research a brief history on the Vietnam War.


Also, I would like to point out that the main reason Russia is backing up isn't due to the magnitude of military power of the United States, but rather the magnitude of influenical power that this nation has to persaude others nations to bring Russia down - as a whole, as a bunch of countries put together for the purposely destruction of Russia.


----------



## Sexta Espada (Aug 12, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> If I was disagreeing with you I would have called it a contradiction and not a tautology.
> 
> Perhaps a contingent sentence.


I can use big words too: Tyrannosaurus 





> I can't nail it over and over again every time.


That's what she said


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 12, 2008)

Is this God Damned conflict over yet?


----------



## warp drive (Aug 12, 2008)

Painkiller said:


> Is this God Damned conflict over yet?



It seems to be coming to a conclusion.


----------



## Harley (Aug 12, 2008)

A conclusion darn it was just starting to get interesting.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

SasukeTheAlmighty said:


> I'm still debating whether to cry or laugh at your post.   ?  ? (cry from sorrow or laugh at you stupidity lack of evidence)
> 
> True, America is the leading nation that, _most _ (hey no human is subject to perfection) of the time, stands for what's righteous and prestigious. In fact, has it not been for us South Korea wouldn't be different than what North Korea _is _right now. Nevertheless, it's also a fact that terrorism has become _more _than a reality of invade-and-win but an excruciating outcome of invade-search-and...wait. In the mean time, our soldiers with no much of a progress to capture a few simple mortals - that by humanitarian law must be put to death - died along with them. The war in Iraq has cost us - I'm don't even know if I'm spelling it right - *thrillions*, in addition to the energy ($$) crisis; we simply cannot afford a war with Russia, politacally and economically speaking - as in right now! Russia is *not* a push-over country, we face a strong nation with the capacity not far from us, which we are utterly misjudging!
> 
> ...



Oh very smart.  Go and read all my posts and find out for yourself the context of what I am saying.


----------



## muishot (Aug 12, 2008)

Altron said:


> Congrats on becoming the stupidest american ever here on NF
> 
> at calling me a traitor because *i call the US for what it really is right now "A country as bad as Russia, with a government that stomps on our constitution and rights, that violates another country, and thinks it is invicible".*
> 
> Hey smartass, i did not know thinking that the USA is not all that great is considered treason.



Let me educate you a little bit Traitor.  But before that, I want to paraphrase what I said in my first post.  Basically I was analyzing and predicting what will happen.  Many on this forum seemed to indicate that the conflict between Georgia and Russia is going to become an all out war and Russia is going to destroy it including yourself.  You yourself in particular is taking this conflict in isolation and said what you said.  I myself am taking this conflict and include it in a grand scheme of international politics and analyze it and predicting of what will happen.  I said that this will not become an all out war and Russia is not going to destroy Georgia.  I am right on that.  I am saying that this will resolve politically.  And it seems I am going to be right on this too.  And I said that Russia is trying to show the world its military might and that it is back on the world stage and that it is the dominant power in that Region of the world.  You want proof of that?  Today, the Russian President held a press conference with the French President and he said *"Georgia has been Punish enough"*.  Why do you think he use the word punish?  It is basically to say to the world that Russia is back.  And that it has the power to punish another countries, and to send a message to the former soviet blocs to not taking side with America because Russia has the power to Punish you.  I was right on that too.  I wasn't taking side or fault Russia or Georgia.  I was only pointing out to the mere fact of the International politics.

Then all of a sudden you come into Russia's defense, saying how it is all Georgia's fault and Russia is completely innocent in this.  How Georgia deserves it and Russia is going to destroy Georgia.  You are defending Russia this whole time.  You are being bias as well.  You never once try to look at the conflict from the perspective of America.  *This is where I will be educating you and question your patriotism.*

You said that America has no business in this conflict between Russia and Georgia and so the US should butt out of it.  This is why you are so simple minded thinking that this is an isolated problem between Russia and Georgia and no one else.  Nothing is as simple as it appears in International politics.  You are unable to see the big picture.  

Why do you think the US has to get involve in this border conflict between Georgia and Russia?  Assuming that you get your wish - Russia is destroying Georgia and the US stay silent and do nothing, what kind of message that will send to the world?  That Russia is strong and the US is weak.  Apparently, many of you on this forum fall for that because you all saying that we can't take on Russia and we should be afraid of it.  

Think of what we have been doing all this time.  We have been spending a lot of money and efforts trying to get those former Soviet Blocs into the EU and NATO, and for what?  The reason we are doing it because we want to secure our National Interests.  We want to make us stronger and make our National Security stronger.  If we are silent on this and don't do anything and let Russia destroy Georgia, what does that say to the rest of the former Soviet Union?  Those countries will no longer trust us to protect them from the wrath of Russia because clearly they can't compete with Russia.  The reasons they are defiance against Russia because of the US.  If we can't protect them, they would likely have to join Russia again and that would make Russia stronger.  As we all know, Putin wants to revert Russia back to the former Soviet Union.  He wants Russia to to be able to rival us in term of global dominant.  That is going to severely damage our national interests and our national security and by then the chance of Russia attacking us is great.  

And here you are as an American (or so you claim to be) defending Russia and basically against the US.  You talk shit about the US and protecting Russia.  You have the audacity to call yourself an American.  Maybe calling you a traitor is a little harsh but you are not patriotic.  Fucking Idiot.  So simple minded that you are unable to see the big picture.

And if you get involve in other debate about the US you will know that I talk shit about the US too because I don't like where it is heading.  Xion Should know because I use to debate against him and talk trash about the Administration and where the country is heading.  Just like you, I don't like what is happening under this Administration.  But unlike you, when it comes to picking side, I put my country first and will fight to defend America against outsiders.


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 13, 2008)

Will you two shut the FUCK up? Here's an idea: America should NOT intervene in another fucking war. We did that with WWII and look where it got us. A better idea is to go back into an isolationist nation and work on ourselves before we help others.


----------



## MrCinos (Aug 13, 2008)

II Xion II said:
			
		

> Oh you incredibly biased Russian sheep.


I wouldn't say that. I actually really hate our government and our "mighty" military force too. More then US's for instance (much more) and I also want to leave Russia in future. But in this case it's hard to hate Russia for me, when all we did - protected civilians. Russia didn't bombed any of the civilians target in Georgia. If that really was the case USA would say that since they have satellite in space which could confirm this easily, but no, only Georgia said this with no proof at all.



			
				II Xion II said:
			
		

> I also tend towards impartiality however and despise totalitarianism. That is why I saw the Russian response and reasoning as grossly disproportionate.


So, if, for example in Georgia were 1500 americans (tourists) and they would be killed by Georgians soldiers - USA shouldn't answer to Georgia? And if USA responded  - that would be grossly disproportionate? Maybe it is you, who are biased -_- Or using double standarts.



> Yes. That youth camp Russia bombed was such a military target.


What youth camp? And who reported it? If Georgians then it's a bullshit since they lied several times already. Like when they said that Russia bombed one of their town (Gori).



			
				II Xion II said:
			
		

> Go back to Fairy Vearth.
> 
> Unlike the rest of Europe, we actually wanted to help Georgia in a meaningful way to the best of our ability.


Well, you should helped Saddam Husein then instead of capturing him. Since Saakashvili and him are the same in nature. Why USA want to help people, who started this war and purposedly killed more than thousand civilians?


----------



## Xion (Aug 13, 2008)

MrCinos said:


> I wouldn't say that. I actually really hate our government and our "mighty" military force too. More then US's for instance (much more). But in this case it's hard to do this, when all we did - protected civilians. Russia didn't bombed any of civilians target in Georgia. If that really was the case USA would say that since they have satellite in space which could confirm this easily, but no, only Georgia said this with no proof at all.



So the bombs that fell on Georgian apartments were Georgian?



			
				MrCinos said:
			
		

> So, if, for example in Georgia were 1500 americans (tourists) and they would be killed by Georgians soldiers - USA shouldn't answer to Georgia? And if it answer with force - USA would be guilty in this incident? Maybe it is you, who are biased -_-



Oh please...

Russia has been waiting for this opportunity to test the international community and flex their military muscle as they are getting paranoid of Western influence in their "bloc" (which is such an archaic mentality, even worse under Putin and the puppet president).

Yes, Georgia may have started it, but the exact circumstances are unclear and Russia's response devastated the entire country (only comparable to Israel's bombing of Lebanon). It was highly disproportionate.



			
				MrCinos said:
			
		

> What youth camp? And who reported it? If Georgians then it's a bullshit since they lied several times already. Like when they said that Russia bombed one of their town (Gori).



So now you believe the (heavily censored) Russian government on all accounts? I am surprised you can even access this site.

Are you denying that Russia bombed anything besides military targets in Georgia? Did the Georgians bomb it themselves? 



			
				MrCinos said:
			
		

> Well, you should helped Saddam Husein then instead of capturing him. Since Saakashvili and him are the same in nature. Why USA want to help people, who started this war and purposedly killed more than thousand civilians?



When you have some neutral international sources confirming this I will tend to believe you more.


----------



## muishot (Aug 13, 2008)

MrCinos said:


> I wouldn't say that. I actually really hate our government and our "mighty" military force too. More then US's for instance (much more) and I also want to leave Russia in future. But in this case it's hard to hate Russia for me, when all we did - protected civilians. Russia didn't bombed any of the civilians target in Georgia. If that really was the case USA would say that since they have satellite in space which could confirm this easily, but no, only Georgia said this with no proof at all.
> 
> So, if, for example in Georgia were 1500 americans (tourists) and they would be killed by Georgians soldiers - USA shouldn't answer to Georgia? And if USA responded  - that would be grossly disproportionate? Maybe it is you, who are biased -_- Or using double standarts.
> 
> ...



YOu see, I have no problem with because you are Russian and you should be defending Russia.


----------



## Altron (Aug 13, 2008)

muishot said:


> *YOu see, I have no problem with because you are Russian and you should be defending Russia*.



, the hypocrisy. Good going idiot, now we know what a baised moron you are.


----------



## muishot (Aug 13, 2008)

Altron said:


> , so just because i don't support Georgia and proved why Russian intervention was justified that makes me a traitor?  Who are you to define what patriotism and treason is? Fact of the matter is i can say whatever i want as protected by the 1st Amendment. I am sorry if i hurt your feelings, though the fact that you make the USA to be the perfect saint, and godly nation is just stupid.
> 
> *If the USA is so good, why is our dollar becoming crap against the pound, euro, and even the damn chinese Yuan? Why is there a recession? Why are we stuck in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why are we trillions of dollars into debt? Why is unemployment and housing falling down? Why do many countries want to see us destroyed? Why does Iran (according to you should go down soon) still defy the US/UN/EU?Why are american soldiers dying everyday in an unjust uncalled for war?Why are we spending billions everyday?Why can't americans learn to use credit properly without screwing themselves? *
> 
> ...



I am not saying America is a saint.  But compare to Russia we are much better.  Apparently you just like to talk trash because that is what you are really good at.  But in this post as well as your other posts, you are taking Russia's side and against the US and that would make you unpatriotic.  

It doesn't matter what you said, you know that I am right about this situation.  You just don't want to admit it.


----------



## Purgatory (Aug 13, 2008)

Altron said:


> , the hypocrisy. Good going idiot, now we know what a baised moron you are.



He's just a "Freedom Fighter" as Bush calls it. You know..if Firefighters fight fires, then..what do Freedom Fighters fight?


----------



## Yakushi Kabuto (Aug 13, 2008)

Dropping by to say please keep this on-topic and knock it off with the insults and such, as Altron has deleted his later posts I trust that those who who are going back and forth him him will follow and cease the baiting and so on. Thank you.


----------



## muishot (Aug 13, 2008)

Painkiller said:


> Will you two shut the FUCK up? Here's an idea: America should NOT intervene in another fucking war. *We did that with WWII and look where it got us. *A better idea is to go back into an isolationist nation and work on ourselves before we help others.



I hope that you are being sarcastic.  If not, I am not even going to bother debating you because you should know where that got us.


----------



## Raiden (Aug 13, 2008)

I've been following this story on CNN for about an hour or so. There was controversy over the fact that Russian troops began moving towards Georgia's capital and during this movement, Georgia's President got on CNN and said that Georgia's troops and civilians will defend Georgia until the very last drop of blood. He seems very frustrated and bent on the idea that Russia actually intends to take over Georgia. The troops later turned off the road to Tsiblisi. At this point, their  intentions are unclear.

I just wanted to address recent headlines that are bound to mislead many. MSN has an article that states that Georgia's President said that there is no ceasefire. He was speaking in terms of Russia, as what he believes to be  an attempt to over the country. *This does not mean that Georgia troops will launch an offensive against them regardless of the ceasefire that was agreed upon.*



Chill Bro said:


> A conclusion darn it was just starting to get interesting.



It is interesting but I would prefer to be bored rather than having to think about the 2,000 lives that were lost as a result of this very short war and the suffering that is bound to come.



Painkiller said:


> Will you two shut the FUCK up? Here's an idea: America should NOT intervene in another fucking war. We did that with WWII and look where it got us. A better idea is to go back into an isolationist nation and work on ourselves before we help others.



Don't worry, it's not going to happen. The State Department has already confirmed that they will seek a diplomatic way of punishing Russia, and there are very options for that punishment (one of which is kicking Russia out of the G-8).


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 13, 2008)

> So now you believe the (heavily censored) Russian government on all accounts? I am surprised you can even access this site.



 **


----------



## MrCinos (Aug 13, 2008)

> Don't worry, it's not going to happen. The State Department has already confirmed that they will seek a diplomatic way of punishing Russia, and there are very options for that punishment (one of which is kicking Russia out of the G-8).


After seeing today news and hearing our president's speech, there would be no punishment for Russia. If someone would be punished, it would be only Saakashvili. Medvedev also stated that there were some "people' (obviously someone from US) who tried to negotiate that matter "peacefuly" so that Saakashivili (who is pretty much USA's puppet) wouldn't be to blame. 
USA's government currently using double standarts to that matter.



> So now you believe the (heavily censored) Russian government on all accounts? I am surprised you can even access this site.


I wouldn't surprise if you think that in siberian towns there are wild bears and many drunking russians walking in the street.


----------



## rldragon (Aug 13, 2008)

There are two things I want so say about this situation concerning Georgia.

1. Common sense is not so common ... 
2. Ko drugom jamu kopa sam u nju upada


----------



## niyesuH (Aug 13, 2008)

MrCinos said:


> I wouldn't surprise if you think that in siberian towns there are wild bears and many drunking russians walking in the street.



watch out for the arms selling Turks


----------



## Saufsoldat (Aug 13, 2008)

Just read in the news that eye-witnesses are saying the Russian troops start plundering in Georgia


----------



## Le Mâle-Pensant (Aug 13, 2008)

Why russian troops are in Gori ??????????????


----------



## Xion (Aug 13, 2008)

MrCinos said:


> After seeing today news and hearing our president's speech, there would be no punishment for Russia. If someone would be punished, it would be only Saakashvili. Medvedev also stated that there were some "people' (obviously someone from US) who tried to negotiate that matter "peacefuly" so that Saakashivili (who is pretty much USA's puppet) wouldn't be to blame.
> USA's government currently using double standarts to that matter.



Here's an idea.

Why doesn't your country start doing some good in this world instead being nostalgic over its lost former glory (a.k.a. mass murder)?

They are stubbornly paranoid, corruption is rampant, the economy is much-underdeveloped compared with its resources, censorship and human rights abuse is widespread, and it has no moral qualms about brutally suppressing separatists of its own.



			
				MrCinos said:
			
		

> I wouldn't surprise if you think that in siberian towns there are wild bears and many drunking russians walking in the street.



The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.


----------



## Tleilaxu (Aug 13, 2008)

Apparently the USA is sending in supplies, lets hope some high tech weaponry is hidden in with them  Especially with the 2000 war hardened troops returning home.


----------



## Megaharrison (Aug 13, 2008)

Le Male said:


> Why russian troops are in Gori ??????????????



The Russians are likely going to make a buffer zone of control into Georgia itself to make any future Georgian ventures into South Ossetia and perhaps Abkhazia unlikely.

Gori itself is a central hub of Georgia. It holds the countries only East-West highway. If they continue to occupy Gori, the Russians have the ability to split the country in half. With a western sector along the coast (blockaded by the Russian navy) controlled by Russian troops operating out of Abkhazia and an eastern sector centered around the Georgian capital of Tblisi with Russian troops operating out of South Ossetia. 

The Russians are in Gori because they still want to control movement in Georgia itself. This is likely because of the establishment of a buffer zone


----------



## Watchman (Aug 13, 2008)

II Xion II said:


> Great words. Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Zedong, etc. would agree.
> 
> Run the country the "way they want."



Wasn't that also a key tenet of American foreign policy up until and even during the Cold War? Self-determination, for a country to govern itself as it wishes to without the interference of others?


----------



## Xion (Aug 13, 2008)

Vindicare said:


> Wasn't that also a key tenet of American foreign policy up until and even during the Cold War? Self-determination, for a country to govern itself as it wishes to without the interference of others?



It's a key tenet of all countries which is why it is so awful.

It is so broad that is can apply to dictatorships or democracies. But using it to defend authoritarian regimes is so very outlandish.

How is it a good argument to argue that "someone should do something because they want to and that is the way it has been done?"

Using that line of reasoning makes slavery, murder, and mass starvation perfectly acceptable.


----------



## rldragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Murder can be, but in most cases isn't acceptable. As for slavery... I have a couple of professors who believe that capitalism is a form of neo-slavery. Another thing, who would starve their own people? When I said each country's business is their own, I meant nations not governments. Governments change each several years, and the majority of nation chooses the next one. I am not defending African dictators ( if there is any left). So for the record, my country is a democracy and has free press. 
As to why defending certain regimes with "someone should do something because they want to and that is the way it has been done" is bad? Double standards. Example: Westerners are outraged if China 'converts' an another country to communism or socialism but don't think anything of forcing Cuba to become a capitalist republic. _*In theory*_, socialism is way better than capitalism. Too bad that such a thing is an utopia and not possible in the real world. And for example, what's wrong with the Scandinavian countries? They are almost socialist countries and are in fact one of the counties with best living-standards in the world.
One more thing, correct if I am wrong, but aren't Russian presidents and prime ministers elected? People choose who they want, pure democracy 
As for the cold in Siberia, I am going to have to take your word for it


----------



## tinhamodic (Aug 14, 2008)

I was reading something about Russia accusing Georgia of ethnic cleansing. Of what? Russians?!!


----------



## AbnormallyNormal (Aug 14, 2008)

i actually dont see the big deal - russia is just trying to help out some regions within georgia that want to be independent/in russia. no big deal. its only hypocritices within USA and ignoranmuses who have a prob with what russia did/is doing. and you guys should know the connections between john mccain campaign and georgian leadership... they are out there, money and personnel linkages. it just makes USA upset that they cant completely encircle russia with all pro-USA NATO "nations" - when russia tries to resist just a little bit, and take over like two tiny provinces of a small "nation". USA gets really mad and acts like russia is invading the entire world. its total BS and you guys are just letting the neo con american empire cotinue its reign by buying into it


----------



## rldragon (Aug 14, 2008)

.... ^ *reps*


----------



## Raiden (Aug 14, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> i actually dont see the big deal - russia is just trying to help out some regions within georgia that want to be independent/in russia. no big deal. its only hypocritices within USA and ignoranmuses who have a prob with what russia did/is doing. and you guys should know the connections between john mccain campaign and georgian leadership... they are out there, money and personnel linkages. it just makes USA upset that they cant completely encircle russia with all pro-USA NATO "nations" - when russia tries to resist just a little bit, and take over like two tiny provinces of a small "nation". USA gets really mad and acts like russia is invading the entire world. its total BS and you guys are just letting the neo con american empire cotinue its reign by buying into it



You've got a very good point there. I just want to you keep in mind that the US didn't support Georgia's invasion of South Ossetia though, as a matter of fact the State Department warned Georgia's President that doing this would give Russia reason to invade the country. When he did it anyway and Russia actually did invade, he asked for forgiveness. 

Here's how I see it: the US is supporting Georgia for three reasons. 1. We are very close allies. 2. Russia had almost not reason to get involved in the situation. 3. Ofcourse, officials realize that demise in Georgias means a demise of US influence and control in the region, a region where the US has very little control.


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## muishot (Aug 14, 2008)

Raiden said:


> You've got a very good point there. I just want to you keep in mind that the US didn't support Georgia's invasion of South Ossetia though, as a matter of fact the State Department warned Georgia's President that doing this would give Russia reason to invade the country. When he did it anyway and Russia actually did invade, he asked for forgiveness.
> 
> Here's how I see it: the US is supporting Georgia for three reasons. 1. We are very close allies. 2. Russia had almost not reason to get involved in the situation. 3. *Ofcourse, officials realize that demise in Georgias means a demise of US influence and control in the region, a region where the US has very little control.*



I agree.  Let me remind those Americans who support Russia in this matter that the real reason we are doing this is not because we want to protect Georgia.  We are doing this because it helps serve our best interests.  It helps make us stronger by having our presence and influence and having more allies in that region.  It will ultimately enhance our national security.  

So far Russia hasn't given the US a reason to get involve other than humanitarian aid and try to find ways to punish Russia diplomatically.  Unfortunately, I don't trust this Administration to be able to outmaneuver Russia in Diplomacy.  And also this Administration's past foreign policies has weaken us and cost us that moral high ground.  Now is not the time to blame teh Administration but I just want to point that out so that we (voters) can make better judgment the next time we vote for Congress person (Senate and Congress) and ultimately President.


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## niyesuH (Aug 14, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> i actually dont see the big deal - russia is just trying to help out some regions within georgia that want to be independent/in russia. no big deal. its only hypocritices within USA and ignoranmuses who have a prob with what russia did/is doing. and you guys should know the connections between john mccain campaign and georgian leadership... they are out there, money and personnel linkages. it just makes USA upset that they cant completely encircle russia with all pro-USA NATO "nations" - when russia tries to resist just a little bit, and take over like two tiny provinces of a small "nation". USA gets really mad and acts like russia is invading the entire world. its total BS and you guys are just letting the neo con american empire cotinue its reign by buying into it



Russia is the same though..


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## AbnormallyNormal (Aug 14, 2008)

the real question is why did georgia decide to do this to south ossetia right as olympics started? is georgian leaders really stupid enough not to figure out russia will attack back immediately? surely they had been warned before by russia about it. the way i see it, georgia got its just deserts... its always a shame when innocents are harmed of course, but what do you expect russia to do? just sit back and keep taking it, as a "USA ally" continues oppressing russians?


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## niyesuH (Aug 14, 2008)

you really think Russia cares? you know well as i do that the real reason is something else


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## kayanathera (Aug 15, 2008)

the situation is a clear exemple of why eastern europe countries are cursing the fact that they are neighbours with russia and why so many suported germans in ww2.


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## Ryuji Yamazaki (Aug 15, 2008)

They should let South Ossetia go to the Russians?

Georgia cannot let this happen /without ceasing to fucking exist/. We cannot emphasize this enough.

BTW, no, 'letting it be independent' or 'letting it reunite with North Ossetia' (which is part of Russia) are not viable options. Georgia lets South Ossetia go anywhere except be part of Georgia, it'll be Russian territory in a day.

This is a naked territorial landgrab on the part of Russia, and has no moral justification /whatsoever/.


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## T4R0K (Aug 15, 2008)

Hum... Interesting. Latest developement in the news have it the Georgians cooperate more in order to restore the cease-fire than the Russians. Currently, no one knows what happens in Gori and the answers from a Russian soldier is freezing : "Liek you need to know hehehe..." (he was grinning !) 

The situation is blocked off, one can only fear for the civilians, for the Russian army is less than "polite" (if you want to call Georgians monsters if you side with Russia, you may not know that Russians are 10x worse). They're not even caring for the Kremlin's order that sounded like "Hey guys, maybe you should stop firing ?", "Nah, dun wanna." , "OK, fu fu fu..."

Also, a Georgian reporter got sniped live in the arm, maybe to get the fuck away with her cameras and stuff. Them not want no witness. It was weird, she just stopped, looked at her arm like some insect bit her and was taken to cover by her crew, while she seemed to not feel the pain. Already seen that, not feeling the pain at first...

Meanwhile, Poland signs the missile shield treaty with the USA and Canada cancelled an army exercice with Russians. 

What wonderful times to be on the verge of destruction...


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## Chi (Aug 15, 2008)

Ok. Where all this info about Russians being "monsters" came from? Western media?
Link removed
And what's with this "They don't care", "they do that", like you actually was there and saw this. You just got fed with lies and blindly believe it. Right now nobody will tell you the truth. Not Russians, not USA.
And I really can't understand why USA is so outraged, when they did basically the same thing in Iraq. I mean, at least Georgia attacked Russian citizens giving them a good reason..


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 15, 2008)

Goddamnit I was gonna post that vid Chi


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## niyesuH (Aug 15, 2008)

Chi said:


> Ok. Where all this info about Russians being "monsters" came from? Western media?
> Watch One Piece (Streaming)
> And what's with this "They don't care", "they do that", like you actually was there and saw this. You just got fed with lies and blindly believe it. Right now nobody will tell you the truth. Not Russians, not USA.
> And I really can't understand why USA is so outraged, when they did basically the same thing in Iraq. I mean, at least Georgia attacked Russian citizens giving them a good reason..



you go ahead and believe a random girl that appears on tv


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## Chi (Aug 15, 2008)

niyesuH said:


> you go ahead and believe a random girl that appears on tv



I didn't say that I believe her, it's just an exampler of how media tries to push their versions.
I myself is half georgian and am living in baltic country (Latvia) and really, the rate at which people "eat" all this bullshit is just scary.


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## MrCinos (Aug 15, 2008)

> you go ahead and believe a random girl that appears on tv


There are thousands (30+k) Ossetians who fled to Russia and they all telling almost the same thing. I don't know why there were little of interviews with Ossetians in western press. Here is some footage from S. Ossetia:


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## Goofy Titan (Aug 15, 2008)

Chi said:


> I didn't say that I believe her, it's just an exampler of how media tries to push their versions.
> I myself is half georgian and am living in baltic country (Latvia) and really, the rate at which people "eat" all this bullshit is just scary.



Trust me, the people who believe Fox News don't deserve the honor of breeding. Let alone, breathing.

It's also a hefty large reason I don't follow large news syndicates. Always a fixed angle, and generally fucking depressing.


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## warp drive (Aug 15, 2008)

Quite frankly, I disbelieve this would go any further. It is good for everyone - including Russia. I've come the conclusion that most of you and underestimate the power of Russia. Listen to what secretery of defence, Robert Gates, said recently; we are at the moment "preoccupied" in Iraq and in Afganistan needless to say the energy crisis. It is not wise for either the U.S or Russia to clash. I recently saw a report on CNN, the report included the high possibilities of a Russia's missiles reaching the U.S through Iran. It would be fool for the U.S to take this "drastic" decision that everyone is carelessly waiting. When we declared war to Iraq almost everyone was for it; that is, until, we started seeing the reality of war. It is good for both sides to do bussines and settle down.

Honestly, don't you guys find it more than common for Russia to attack a sovereign country at times where the U.S. is in no positon to declare war to someone as powerful as Russia. Clearly they're not stupid. This was, of course, organize, and the message was heard world wide and felt physically by Georgians. The U.S is in no position to act, we shouldn't act for the benefit of our people. The Georgian's president, to my concern, is over-reacting - to the degree that he can't reason right any more. Russia would not reach Georgia's capital if they know what's good for them. They lack support, and they certainly cannot take the world. They know it, we know it. It's just a matter of time before this come to a conclusion.

The human kind, at times, can be truly disgusting. Settle down people.


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## Bolt Crank (Aug 15, 2008)

T4R0K said:


> What wonderful times to be on the verge of destruction...



For those of us who missed the cold war the first time around, I guess...


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## Ryuji Yamazaki (Aug 16, 2008)

Bolt Crank said:


> For those of us who missed the cold war the first time around, I guess...



New Cold War? Sweet!


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## kayanathera (Aug 16, 2008)

Hwoarang said:


> New Cold War? Sweet!



yes and in the first round west-ussr 1-0


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## Bolt Crank (Aug 16, 2008)

Hwoarang said:


> New Cold War? Sweet!



Because the first one was such a great idea, too.

Isn't it a bit of a coincidence that this is all happening right when the new "Watchmen" movie is about to come out? Aha, I'm onto them.


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 18, 2008)

What's even more ironic is that there was a Tom Clancy game (the first Ghost Recon I think, came out in 2001) that had Russia invading S. Ossetia in 2008


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 18, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> What's even more ironic is that there was a Tom Clancy game (the first Ghost Recon I think, came out in 2001) that had Russia invading S. Ossetia in 2008



Wasnt that in 07(gamewise).Appearantly I fought against S.Ossetians in that game
Clancy has a knack for this


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## Sexta Espada (Aug 18, 2008)

No I think it was in '08, it like backtracked for a bit for backstory and then got to a 2008 invasion


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## Elim Rawne (Aug 18, 2008)

You're probably right.It's been sometime since I played it.
Then again,Clancy kinda predicted 9/11.If Kazakhstan falls into turmoil in 2012,he's a goddamn prophet


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## T4R0K (Aug 19, 2008)

Sexta Espada said:


> What's even more ironic is that there was a Tom Clancy game (the first Ghost Recon I think, came out in 2001) that had Russia invading S. Ossetia in 2008



Fuck ! That guy is either a fucking real former CIA analyst or he's a prophet of doom !!! I mean, I don't wanna see the scenario from Rainbow Six 1 happen !!!


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## Raiden (Aug 19, 2008)

^Oh wow 

Last thing I heard was that the situation isn't getting any better. Russia hasn't begun withdrawing it's men, and there have actually been reports of Russian soldiers moving launch pads into certain regions. Ontop of all of this, Russian soldiers were recorded on camera moving about with US army vehicles.


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## Purgatory (Aug 19, 2008)

Hwoarang said:


> New Cold War? Sweet!



It ain't a Cold War without a Cuban Missile Crisis.


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## T4R0K (Aug 19, 2008)

Raiden said:


> Ontop of all of this, Russian soldiers were recorded on camera moving about with US army vehicles.



Wut ? Humwees they bought from General Motors ? More details please.


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## Trov (Aug 19, 2008)

> Russian soldiers took about 20 Georgian troops prisoner at a key Black Sea port in western Georgia on Tuesday, blindfolding them and holding them at gunpoint, and commandeered American Humvees awaiting shipment back to the United States.


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## Xion (Aug 19, 2008)

Let's hope that something actually gets done now that NATO has a firmer grasp on everything...something...anything?


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