# Who was portrayed as stronger, A3 or Jiraiya?



## Soldierofficial (Nov 12, 2018)

Who was portrayed as stronger, A3 or Jiraiya?


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## Marvel (Nov 12, 2018)

Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mithos (Nov 12, 2018)

Jiraiya.


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## Sapherosth (Nov 12, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?



Can you see the skills Pain used on Jiraiya having any effect on A3?   Chances are, A3 would've pushed Pain further than Jiraiya ever would.


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2018)

Jiraiya.



Sapherosth said:


> Can you see the skills Pain used on Jiraiya having any effect on A3?



Preta absorbs his RCM and all his chakra based attack, Human path soul rips him or they both stab him with chakra receiver and kill him.

Pain low diff kills him with only 2 paths.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 12, 2018)

Jiraiya.

Although A3 would probably rip him apart. His speed, durability and black lighting wouldn't give Jman a chance to go into SM where his only choice is frog song.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 12, 2018)

Jiraiya. Being equal to Itachi, giving Pain a hard time, and being able to defeat Pain if he knew his secret is more impressive than stalemating Gyuki or fighting an army imho.


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## Sapherosth (Nov 12, 2018)

Azula said:


> Jiraiya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A3's physical durability outside of the shroud is still far stronger. Who's to say they will catch A3 when A3 himself is faster than Jiraiya anyway?

A3 managed to dodge multiple times against KCM Naruto..who's to say he can't dodge the paths?

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## Kai (Nov 12, 2018)

They're on the same general level but Jiraiya is more "special" due to having a more unique power as one of the prodigal three ninja imo.

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## Azula (Nov 12, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> A3's physical durability outside of the shroud is still far stronger.



That wouldn't matter against Human path soul rip or chakra receiver.



Sapherosth said:


> Who's to say they will catch A3 when A3 himself is faster than Jiraiya anyway?



They will react to him if he charges and Preta path grabs him.



Sapherosth said:


> who's to say he can't dodge the paths?



He can't dodge attacks if his RCM gets sapped by Preta.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?


No. Can I see Jiraiya doing it when a superior Naruto couldn't? No.



Azula said:


> Preta absorbs his RCM and all his chakra based attack, Human path soul rips him or they both stab him with chakra receiver and kill him.
> 
> Pain low diff kills him with only 2 paths.


Preta hard counters A3. How is it a low diff if he's using that Path?

Human Path is nowhere near fast enough to rip his soul out before he rips its face off if it couldn't even compete with SM Jiraiya's speed. Not to mention, Chakra Rods can't pierce through RCM.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya. Being equal to Itachi


No.



Isaiah13000 said:


> and being able to defeat Pain if he knew his secret


And no.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Portrayed on the same level.


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Preta hard counters A3. How is it a low diff if he's using that Path?



If only 1 path shuts down almost everything A3 can do then it's a low diff fight.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Human Path is nowhere near fast enough to rip his soul out before he rips its face off



I meant it as in Preta and Human fighting together. Shared vision counters blindside or blitz attempt.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> it couldn't even compete with SM Jiraiya's speed.



It did later on when he reacted to his blindside attempt.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Not to mention, Chakra Rods can't pierce through RCM



Chakra rods aren't your average weapon, they will pierce through A3.


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## Kisame (Nov 12, 2018)

Azula said:


> Chakra rods aren't your average weapon, they will pierce through A3.


Based on?


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 12, 2018)

Jiraiya

-Can defeat people like Konan, Kisame, and Base Itachi easily while in Base. Compare that to the amount of effort A3 had to use against relative fodder (Temari, Dodai) while in his strongest known form (Raiton Armor).

-Has Itachi and Kisame uncertain about their ability to beat him.

-Pein thought Jiraiya could beat him.

-A SM Naruto Clone was able to defeat A3 after being told of his weakness, while a full powered SM Naruto was only comparable to SM Jiraiya.



The only potential arguments in favor of A3 are that...

-He stalemated the Hachibi while Base Jiraiya barely beat Kn4, but that was just Base Jiraiya and Jiraiya actually won. We have no way of really scaling Kn4 to the Hachibi and didn’t see either fight, so which is more impressive is subjective.

-A3 has had the Amber Sealing Pot, which is incredibly hax and gives him the ability to beat anyone without knowledge.



I’d say Jiraiya is definitely portrayed as above A3 without the pot, but with it they are on the same general level.

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## The Great One (Nov 12, 2018)

A3.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Nov 12, 2018)

Jiraiya. He was portrayed on peer with Juubito. That puts him above anything A3 had been acknowledged for.


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## hbcaptain (Nov 12, 2018)

They're more or less comparable, A3 tied with wild Hachibi, this is more than enough as a feat to rank him on par wtih another Sannin. However, I still think Jiraya is slightly stronger than him.


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## strongestrinneganuser (Nov 12, 2018)

Third Raikage of course. Jiraiya could not beat Pain, even in sage mode. He was absolutely no match for four-tailed Kurama. So obviously he cannot beat Gyuki. A beat Gyuki very easily. He is even close to Edo Madara and sage mode Hashirama.


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## Kisame (Nov 12, 2018)

strongestrinneganuser said:


> Third Raikage of course. Jiraiya could not beat Pain, even in sage mode. He was absolutely no match for four-tailed Kurama. So obviously he cannot beat Gyuki. A beat Gyuki very easily. He is even close to Edo Madara and safe mode Hashirama.


Every single statement here is wrong.


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## strongestrinneganuser (Nov 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> Every single statement here is wrong.


How is it wrong? They are all correct. You think Jiraiya can beat 10, 000 joinins and chunins. Think of it. A was used by Kabuto before Madara. This means that he is the closest to Madara out of all the re-animations. Blind Madara beat all the tailed beasts together. He should be able to do that too even if it would have been much harder for him. Didn't you hear how easily he beat eight tails?


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> Based on?



The fact that they stopped EMS Sasuke's enton arrow and were still jammed inside Bijuus bodies after transformation.

Normally it wouldn't be possible to hit SM Naruto either because in SM he can fall on large spikes without a scratch.


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## Kisame (Nov 12, 2018)

Azula said:


> The fact that they stopped EMS Sasuke's enton arrow and were still jammed inside Bijuus bodies after transformation.
> 
> Normally it wouldn't be possible to hit SM Naruto either because in SM he can fall on large spikes without a scratch.


Didn't Pain's rods break on contact with SM Naruto?


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## Ayala (Nov 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> Didn't Pain's rods break on contact with SM Naruto?


It looked more like Naruto broke it by counterattacking imo. It makes sense since later SM Naruto could easily pierce himself with a black rod .

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## Kisame (Nov 12, 2018)

Limbo said:


> It looked more like Naruto broke it by counterattacking imo. It makes sense since later SM Naruto could easily pierce himself with a black rod .


I see.

I still don't see the rods piercing A3 when FRS was portrayed as inefficient against him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Nov 12, 2018)

Shark said:


> I see.
> 
> I still don't see the rods piercing A3 when FRS was portrayed as inefficient against him.



Sure, simply gave my two cents on the SM Naruto part


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## Buuhan (Nov 12, 2018)

strongestrinneganuser said:


> Third Raikage of course. Jiraiya could not beat Pain, even in sage mode. He was absolutely no match for four-tailed Kurama. So obviously he cannot beat Gyuki. A beat Gyuki very easily. He is even close to Edo Madara and sage mode Hashirama.



In an_ open and unrestricted_ location Jiraiya would lose to Pain even if he started in Sage Mode. Within Amegakure however Pain didn't use his large scale jutsu such as _Cho Shinra Tensei_ and _Chibaku Tensei_ due to their destructive power. If Jiraiya had been granted full intel on the number of paths as well as their respective abilities/secret(Nagato), he could've devised a plan to take them out utilizing guerrilla tactics. Deva himself admits to this . 
Jiraiya's fight with kn4 was completely off panel and you have to take into consideration the fact held back in order to prevent harm from befalling Naruto. His goal was to take Naruto out of the form, not kill him. That should give us insight into the handicap Jiraiya had in that scenario. 
A3 is nowhere near Edo Madara or SM Hashi. Both of them would send his ass into oblivion.

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## JiraiyaFlash (Nov 12, 2018)

Definitely Jiraiya (as all other Sannin)

And ı already made a case for that -> ()


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> No.
> 
> 
> And no.


Denying canonical statements doesn't make your argument, if you can even call this an argument, any stronger ya know.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2018)

The one who stalemated a full biju on his own?

Or the one who damn near died to a fraction of a bijus power?

Gee i wonder

Biju level portrayal is something Jiraiya cant even fucking dream about.


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## Marvel (Nov 12, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Can you see the skills Pain used on Jiraiya having any effect on A3?   Chances are, A3 would've pushed Pain further than Jiraiya ever would.


Yes I can actually. Preta Path could absorb A3's Cloak and Multiple Summons could pressure him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?



Tell me you think Jiraiya beats Pain Rikudou in a straight up battle with full knowledge. I want to know how Nagato's existence is going to help Jiraiya there. The funniest part is Deva Path wasn't even used on Jiraiya. 



Azula said:


> Preta absorbs his RCM and all his chakra based attack, Human path soul rips him or they both stab him with chakra receiver and kill him.
> 
> Pain low diff kills him with only 2 paths.



This is so funny because these things can use to end Jiraiya, but you'd protest it. 

2 Paths... which Paths are you thinking of? 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya. Being equal to Itachi, giving Pain a hard time, and being able to defeat Pain if he knew his secret is more impressive than stalemating Gyuki or fighting an army imho.



Its just a shame 3 of those facts are made up while you chose to undermine fighting an army and *a full Bijuu*. This is the second thread where you've undermined the power of a Bijuu when Jiraiya is involved. 

1. Jiraiya was not equal to Itachi. That comment was made on the back of the Sannin reputation compared to the Uchiha clan's... Itachi neglected to mention he defeated the strongest Sannin. 

2. Pain did not have a hard time, Jiraiya did. This is why he ran away praying that Pain would underestimate his Genjutsu.

3. So Jiraiya knowing the secret (Nagato's existence) and exploiting that by using the Genjutsu on Nagato instead of the Pain bodies gives Jiraiya props here? A secret which would be useful in a very precise context? 

Now you're saying fighting probably the *second strongest Bijuu *and fighting an entire army *alone *with no summons or assistance is something minor based on the made up facts you cited. 



Sapherosth said:


> A3's physical durability outside of the shroud is still far stronger. Who's to say they will catch A3 when A3 himself is faster than Jiraiya anyway?
> 
> A3 managed to dodge multiple times against KCM Naruto..who's to say he can't dodge the paths?



KCM Naruto didn't fare super well against Obito's shared vision... in fact, he didn't overwhelm Nagato with his speed either. Though, I agree with your premise about these Jiraiya fans thinking a comment about Jiraiya's power in a very precise context means he's above A3. 



Kai said:


> They're on the same general level but Jiraiya is more "special" due to having a more unique power as one of the prodigal three ninja imo.



I'd agree with Jiraiya being special for the reason you cited. However, we can't forget that A3 did stalemate with a a full Bijuu. Jiraiya almost died fighting 4 tailed Naruto. Granted it was base Jiraiya, but then with Sage Mode, I don't think anyone's saying he can take a 6 tailed form which is still inferior to a full Bijuu. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Denying canonical statements doesn't make your argument, if you can even call this an argument, any stronger ya know.



Its almost as bad as denying what we see in the manga because we like what the databook suggests.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?


Kiddo, Jman doesnt beat pain with knowledge either 

We saw that statement ACTIVELY DEBUNKED IN CANON when SM Naruto, Jmans STATED and SHOWN superior, HAD KNOWLEDGE and STILL LOST to a fucking NERFED and KI-Less Pain no less

Jman has no fucking shot unless you look at just the statement and ignore every other piece of evidence we have regarding pains abilities...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kiddo, Jman doesnt beat pain with knowledge either
> 
> We saw that statement ACTIVELY DEBUNKED IN CANON when SM Naruto, Jmans STATED and SHOWN superior, HAD KNOWLEDGE and STILL LOST to a fucking NERFED and KI-Less Pain no less
> 
> Jman has no fucking shot unless you look at just the statement and ignore every other piece of evidence we have regarding pains abilities...



> Pain confirms that Nagato's existence was the secret... Jiraiya fans think "this secret will help him win". They deny the secret is what Pain confirmed the secret to be. 

> SM Naruto surpassed Jiraiya to battle Pain. Jiraiya fans say that Naruto's Senjutsu isn't better and Jiraiya can outperform Naruto.

> Jiraiya wasn't worthy enough for Nagato to use Deva's powers on him; this is why Kakashi died to deliver knowledge of Deva's powers. According to Jiraiya fans, it doesn't matter the secret can help him win.

I got a Sannin ninja in another thread saying he ignores Oro almost owning Jiraiya in the Sannin deadlock (before Tsunade saved him) because the databook says the Sannin are equal.


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## Azula (Nov 12, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is so funny because these things can use to end Jiraiya, but you'd protest it.



This scenario is actually based on Jiraiya's fight when Preta is absorbing his jutsu and Human path tries to attack him but fails because Jiraiya uses smoke bomb and reverses that.

Unlike A3 Jiraiya is not limited to pure ninjutsu and as per canon a single clone with ninjutsu deals with Preta while Jiraiya leisurely minces Human path to his heart's desire with anything he likes.

You are not as smart as you like to think and it's your own biasness, that you like you accuse others of virtually every single thread, that makes you post like this.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2018)

Azula said:


> This scenario is actually based on Jiraiya's fight when Preta is absorbing his jutsu and Human path tries to attack him but fails because Jiraiya uses smoke bomb and reverses that.
> 
> Unlike A3 Jiraiya is not limited to pure ninjutsu and as per canon a single clone with ninjutsu deals with Preta while Jiraiya leisurely minces Human path to his heart's desire with anything he likes.
> 
> You are not as smart as you like to think and it's your own biasness, that you like you accuse others of virtually every single thread, that makes you post like this.



Oh, so you used a scenario where Shima had to shout out loud which led to *Fuksaku *throwing a smoke bomb. Yeah, I'm sure if the Raikage had two 800+ year old toads on his shoulders, he could do that too. Jiraiya used a smoke bomb, she says. 

A3 isn't limited to pure Ninjutsu.  Or have you chosen to forget how fast and physically powerful that the Raikage tend to be? Jiraiya leisurely minces Human Path... you mean like the punch which Human Realm casually blocked.  
Human Realm wouldn't be able to block A3's punch as easily. 

Did I hurt your feelings, Azula? 
Well, you and another Sannin fan just had horrible arguments with even more horrid support for said argument. Pro-tip: choosing to distort context and fudge the details (Fukasaku Jiraiya throwing a smoke bomb) doesn't look good for you in this instance. Especially when you're actively missing details due to your own Jiraiya bias while accusing someone else of bias. 

@WorldsStrongest You have to see this, they aren't self-aware with their bias. I think imma have to take it back and agree with you about this Jiraiya cult that the board's got going on now.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Azula said:


> If only 1 path shuts down almost everything A3 can do then it's a low diff fight.


You're using the argument that Jiraiya is portrayed stronger than Pain and that it would only take 2 Paths to defeat A3. But even if we say Jiraiya is truly stronger than Pain, this doesn't work because A3 is hard countered by one of the Paths you mentioned. That's like mentioning Kisame vs Bee in a fight between Kisame vs Jiraiya. And even then, it's debatable if Preta can absorb his Chakra before A3 slices it open with Nukite considering that A3 doesn't use Lariat, a technique which gives Preta a lot of time to absorb Chakra.



Azula said:


> I meant it as in Preta and Human fighting together. Shared vision counters blindside or blitz attempt.


How does this help with Human Path ripping his soul out quicker than he can kill it?



Azula said:


> It did later on when he reacted to his blindside attempt.


Because Pain wasn't aware of Jiraiya's speed at that time, nor will he be aware of A3's speed at first glance either. A3 will blitz, just like Jiraiya. Except A3 will finish the job here because of Nukite.



Azula said:


> Chakra rods aren't your average weapon, they will pierce through A3.


Based on what?


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Denying canonical statements doesn't make your argument, if you can even call this an argument, any stronger ya know.


I'm sorry while I try to "deny" canonical statements from back in Part 1 which legitimately imply base Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + more backup Akatsuki as well as ignore a statement from Pain which is contradicted by SM Naruto, SM Jiraiya's superior, failing to defeat Pain in the same exact circumstances Pain stated Jiraiya would defeat him in.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 12, 2018)

I'd say Jiraiya

Pein and Obito said he lived up to his reputation as the toad sage, and proved to be a formidable opponent even after having to confront 6 paths with just 1 arm.

While fighting on par with Gyuki is a good feat, iirc it was stated the pentrative capabilities of his Nintaijutsu was what allowed to keep up


Itachiisinvincible said:


> failing to defeat Pain in the *same exact circumstances *Pain stated Jiraiya would defeat him in.


Interested in this claim


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Interested in this claim


Narutos circumstances were actually BETTER than Jmans hypothetical "we may not have won" scenario and Naruto still failed 

Naruto > Jman

Narutos situation vs Pain > Jmans Hypothetical situation against Pain > Jmans actual situation against Pain

But nah im sure Jman can beat Pain 

Why not...Not like we have dozens of chapters of evidence to the contrary


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## King1 (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> While fighting on par with Gyuki is a good feat


Are you saying jiraiya can replicate said feat?


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Interested in this claim


My apologies. I was wrong, because Naruto's circumstances were even better. Tendo Pain couldn't fight for the first part of the fight, and Tendo Pain had CT and CST be restricted from him in the fight against Jiraiya due to fighting in his own village.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I'd say Jiraiya
> 
> Pein and Obito said he lived up to his reputation as the toad sage, and proved to be a formidable opponent even after having to confront 6 paths with just 1 arm.
> 
> ...



The Nintaijutsu is what makes our durable dude the Raikage. That's like saying Jiraiya could only fight Animal Path due to Senjutsu... even though Senjutsu is part of Jiraiya's arsenal. 

Jiraiya wasn't a formidable foe with 1 arm, that's why Fukasaku didn't want Jiraiya to go back out after they tricked Animal Path. 

Fighting Gyuuki is a good enough claim, which tbh, blows everything Jiraiya did out of the water. Considering how the Bijuu, in general, have been portrayed it is fair to say A3 is probably portrayed as being stronger than Jiraiya. A3 fought an entire Bijuu while Jiraiya couldn't beat a 4 tailed Naruto. That's worth a lot. 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Narutos circumstances were actually BETTER than Jmans hypothetical "we may not have won" scenario and Naruto still failed
> 
> Naruto > Jman
> 
> ...



Don't forget, Cho Oodama Rasengan is comparable to Bijuudama when Jiraiya uses it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> My apologies. I was wrong, because Naruto's circumstances were even better. Tendo Pain couldn't fight for the first part of the fight, and Tendo Pain had CT and CST be restricted from him in the fight against Jiraiya due to fighting in his own village.



Compared to Tendo not even using his abilities against Jiraiya.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 12, 2018)

Naruto fought Pein in the open with Pein having knowledge of the Frog Song.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya couldn't beat a 4 tailed Naruto.


He did this in canon tho.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Naruto fought Pein in the open with Pein having knowledge of the Frog Song.


Location makes it even harder, as I said. Pain can use CT and CST hypothetically here. 

Frog Song is worth noting, but I don't see Jiraiya getting that off before Pain uses BT on either Ma or Pa.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 12, 2018)

King1 said:


> Are you saying jiraiya can replicate said feat?


He can't last with him for as long as A3 did, but he can fight him for an extended period of time



Itachiisinvincible said:


> My apologies. I was wrong, because Naruto's circumstances were even better. Tendo Pain couldn't fight for the first part of the fight, and Tendo Pain had CT and CST be restricted from him in the fight against Jiraiya due to fighting in his own village.


Glad we agree

Naruto came into that fight with prep i.e the entire toad army, clone batterys and starting SM, had knowledge, fought a pein that didn't want to kill him




Itachiisinvincible said:


> Frog Song is worth noting, but I don't see Jiraiya getting that off before Pain uses BT on either Ma or Pa



Unlike with Naruto Ma and Pa are literally fused into Jiraiya's body

It would be like saying Deva could BT a arm or a body part off



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Nintaijutsu is what makes our durable dude the Raikage. That's like saying Jiraiya could only fight Animal Path due to Senjutsu... even though Senjutsu is part of Jiraiya's arsenal.


The pentrative capabilities of his nintaijutsu allowed him to consistently slice parts of the Habichi. The Habichi is weak to pentrative attacks hence why Minato cleanly sliced through his tentacle and Obitos shurkiens cut off a tentacle

He was simply a good matchup, no different than Kisame and Bee, or the sharingan and the Bjuii



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya wasn't a formidable foe with 1 arm, that's why Fukasaku didn't want Jiraiya to go back out after they tricked Animal Path


The fact that he managed to snag Animal Path, despite all 6 being present and actively trying to catch him is proof that he was formidable

If you wanna ignore this pein conceded that if Jiraiya was aware of his secret he wouldn't have won. I'd be disgenious for someone to claim Pein didn't think of him as a formidable opponent taking that into consideration imo



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Fighting Gyuuki is a good enough claim, which tbh, blows everything Jiraiya did out of the water.


Which was more so a matchup thing if anything else. Would you say an Uchiha defeating a bjuii with the sharingan would mean they magically climb tiers or surpass those above him? Nope of course not. They're simply better suited to fighting them.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya couldn't beat a 4 tailed Naruto.


Jiraiya was likely in base, not to mention he wasn't actually trying to kill Naruto, more so restraining him


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Glad we agree
> 
> Naruto came into that fight with prep i.e the entire toad army, clone batterys and starting SM, had knowledge, fought a pein that didn't want to kill him


Pain defeated him even though he wasn't trying to kill Naruto. 

Exactly, Naruto's circumstances were even easier for Naruto to defeat Pain because he had all this extra stuff which Jiraiya didn't, yet he still lost.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Unlike with Naruto Ma and Pa are literally fused into Jiraiya's body
> 
> It would be like saying Deva could BT a arm or a body part off


Fusing is just moving onto Jiraiya's shoulder. There's no reason for him to not be able to BT.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> The pentrative capabilities of his nintaijutsu allowed him to consistently slice parts of the Habichi. The Habichi is weak to pentrative attacks hence why Minato cleanly sliced through his tentacle and Obitos shurkiens cut off a tentacle
> 
> He was simply a good matchup, no different than Kisame and Bee, or the sharingan and the Bjuii



He still had to be able to keep up with the Bijuu to battle, and Bijuu aren't super slow. This isn't like the Sharingan where there's an auto win. Also Kisame didn't fight a full Bijuu form. 



> The fact that he managed to snag Animal Path, despite all 6 being present and actively trying to catch him is proof that he was formidable
> 
> If you wanna ignore this pein conceded that if Jiraiya was aware of his secret he wouldn't have won. I'd be disgenious for someone to claim Pein didn't think of him as a formidable opponent taking that into consideration imo



The Animal Path thing was implied to be when Pain's guard was down hence Fukasaku saying the trick won't work again. 

The secret is simply that there is a real Pain behind the scenes. What that means is if Jiraiya used the Genjutsu on him instead of the bodies, Jiraiya would have won. It didn't mean Jiraiya can take all the 6 bodies in a straight up fight, that's why Naruto surpassed Jiraiya to fight Pain; Deva wasn't even used on Jiraiya. 

Formidable is what Naruto was seeing as he pushed Pain beyond any limit and Jiraiya relied on Pain underestimating him to get anywhere.



> Jiraiya was likely in base, not to mention he wasn't actually trying to kill Naruto, more so restraining him



He could have been going all out in base and still almost died. It wouldn't be the first time Naruto using Kurama's power forced someone (Obito) to go for the kill when they wanted to capture him.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 12, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Narutos circumstances were actually BETTER than Jmans hypothetical "we may not have won" scenario and Naruto still failed
> 
> Naruto > Jman
> 
> ...


I was trying to say Naruto had better circumstances 



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Exactly, Naruto's circumstances were even easier for Naruto to defeat Pain because he had all this extra stuff which Jiraiya didn't, yet he still lost.


Ok nvm



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Pain defeated him even though he wasn't trying to kill Naruto.
> 
> Exactly, Naruto's circumstances were even easier for Naruto to defeat Pain because he had all this extra stuff which Jiraiya didn't, yet he still lost.
> 
> ...


They're literally attached to his shoulders, hence the fusion

He can't BT body parts off


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> They're literally attached to his shoulders, hence the fusion
> 
> He can't BT body parts off


Give me proof they *literally *are attached to Jiraiya.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> I'm sorry while I try to "deny" canonical statements from back in Part 1 which legitimately imply base Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + more backup Akatsuki


 It doesn't imply that whatsoever though, this is just bullshit people make up to try to deny the facts. The fact that base Jiraiya almost one-shotted Kisame and forced Itachi to use the MS to survive one of his jutsu combined with that statement makes it clear that Kishimoto's intent was Jiraiya = Itachi. As for the "back up" part the Akatsuki had different members at that point and whoever Itachi was referring to must've been weak in comparison because he did not believe they could make a difference. It's as simple as that, the fact that Jiraiya also has SM and Itachi has MS which have been portrayed as equal power-ups in Naruto and Sasuke's case (their successors) should make that even more clear. 





> as well as ignore a statement from Pain which is contradicted by SM Naruto, SM Jiraiya's superior, failing to defeat Pain in the same exact circumstances Pain stated Jiraiya would defeat him in.


SM Naruto didn't contradict shit, Pain wasn't referring to Jiraiya taking on all six but rather defeating Nagato himself who would've been left defenseless. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Its just a shame 3 of those facts are made up while you chose to undermine fighting an army and *a full Bijuu*. This is the second thread where you've undermined the power of a Bijuu when Jiraiya is involved.


 You should really stop accusing people of making up facts when you do that all the time yourself, it's hypocritical. 



> 1. Jiraiya was not equal to Itachi. That comment was made on the back of the Sannin reputation compared to the Uchiha clan's... Itachi neglected to mention he defeated the strongest Sannin.


 You're missing the point here, Kishimoto doesn't have his characters purposely spread false information for no reason when it comes to how strong they are. So why would he do so here? Especially when he never did so before? There would be no benefit to it whatsoever, and it already aligns with what happened on-panel when base Jiraiya forced Itachi to use the MS to deal with one of his jutsu. Then the fact that Jiraiya has SM and Itachi has MS, and these power-ups are what made their successors (Naruto and Sasuke) equal should only further make it clear that they are equal too. 


> 2. Pain did not have a hard time, Jiraiya did. This is why he ran away praying that Pain would underestimate his Genjutsu.


 Not interested in having a drawn-out debate with you about this so I'll shut this down quick. Obito stated that  to which Pain says "But we took care of him" which means "Yeah I had a hard time, but he's dead now so we can move on". So my point is proven here. 


> 3. So Jiraiya knowing the secret (Nagato's existence) and exploiting that by using the Genjutsu on Nagato instead of the Pain bodies gives Jiraiya props here? A secret which would be useful in a very precise context?


  So yes it does, it is something that should be praised and held in high regard. 


> Now you're saying fighting probably the *second strongest Bijuu *and fighting an entire army *alone *with no summons or assistance is something minor based on the made up facts you cited.


Gyuki being the second strongest is debatable, and I never said fighting an entire army is minor. I just said it's not as good in comparison.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 12, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Naruto using Kurama's power forced someone (Obito) to go for the kill when they wanted to capture him.


KCM Naruto is not comparable to KN4 my man 

Naruto also had help whilst he was fighting him

Not that it matters since I concede Obito>>>>>Jiriaya. Furthurmore Obito was trying to capture Naruto, Jiriaya was simply trying to restrain him



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He could have been going all out in base and still almost died.


Not being allowed to hurt him, or simply trying to restrain him means he can't use his abilities to its fullest capabilties. Even if we conclude Base Jiraiya would still almost die, we're still ignoring and leaving out his crux being SM.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He still had to be able to keep up with the Bijuu to battle, and Bijuu aren't super slow.


Bjuii's arent super slow but they aren't super fast. We saw Bunta keeping decent pace with shukaku, and that same Bunta had trouble landing hits on the paths. Its a lot harder to hit something thats much smaller than you.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also Kisame didn't fight a full Bijuu form.


I'm not saying that he did but Kisame defeating V2 Bee is something a lot of people in his respective tier would struggle to do, as opposed to Kisame who didn't really have much of a problem



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This isn't like the Sharingan where there's an auto win


Well exactly sharingan users are well suited to fight the bjuii, it doesn't really say much of their overall.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Animal Path thing was implied to be when Pain's guard was down hence Fukasaku saying the trick won't work again


I'd be hard for me to believe the paths were off guard given sharred vision is a thing, but even then this isn't DBZ where sneak attacks are restricted in battles.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The secret is simply that there is a real Pain behind the scenes. What that means is if Jiraiya used the Genjutsu on him instead of the bodies, Jiraiya would have won. It didn't mean Jiraiya can take all the 6 bodies in a straight up fight


I agree with this assessment, though I disagree that this puts Jiraiya in a negative light. Defeating the paths whether its through via defeating Nagato himself is still an amazing feat and hype from the third rikudo

Whether me, you, or Donald Trump thinks the feat is trash, Pein himself thinks its a good one, hence why he praised Jiraiya. Obito the repsective Akatsuki leader furthur reinforces this praise.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Give me proof they *literally *are attached to Jiraiya.


Dude I'm gonna have to ask you to search the word fused/fusion up. Not to mention Jiraiya asked Ma and Pa to unfuse from him so he could learn more about the paths secrets.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Formidable is what Naruto was seeing as he pushed Pain beyond any limit and Jiraiya relied on Pain underestimating him to get anywhere.


To be fair its arguable that Naruto's circumstances, prior knowledge, prep and advantages lead to him pushing Pein furthur

But I'm just gonna have to agree to disagree with you here

Not like it matters, as Naruto doing good against Pein *doesn't mean* that Jiriaya didn't do good against him


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It doesn't imply that whatsoever though, this is just bullshit people make up to try to deny the facts. The fact that base Jiraiya almost one-shotted Kisame and forced Itachi to use the MS to survive one of his jutsu combined with that statement makes it clear that Kishimoto's intent was Jiraiya = Itachi.


Kisame could have broken out easily with his sharks.

What stopped Itachi from putting Jiraiya in a Genjutsu the moment they made eye contact?



Isaiah13000 said:


> As for the "back up" part the Akatsuki had different members at that point and whoever Itachi was referring to must've been weak in comparison because he did not believe they could make a difference.


Why would Itachi be referring to a weak member? Why would he mention a weak member if his intent was to defeat Jiraiya? His statement implies that he + Kisame + more Akatsuki would only *stalemate *Jiraiya. Do you really not see the problem with this?



Isaiah13000 said:


> It's as simple as that, the fact that Jiraiya also has SM and Itachi has MS which have been portrayed as equal power-ups in Naruto and Sasuke's case (their successors) should make that even more clear.


Except Jiraiya's SM is not perfect and takes forever for him to get to, while Itachi can instantly get to MS. Certainly, Kishimoto would not draw Itachi dealing with Orochimaru with a mere Paralysis Genjutsu if his intent was to make Itachi Jiraiya's peer. The "match up" argument doesn't prove anything either as, if we're going by Part 1 (which you are perfectly fine with using for your arguments), Jiraiya stared Itachi right in the eye and gave him an opportunity to use Tsukuyomi. And Jiraiya has *nothing *that makes him better at dealing with Genjutsu over Orochimaru.



Isaiah13000 said:


> SM Naruto didn't contradict shit, Pain wasn't referring to Jiraiya taking on all six but rather defeating Nagato himself who would've been left defenseless.


This is interesting. Surely taking on a defenseless immobile Nagato is not a better feat than stalemating Gyuki.



Isaiah13000 said:


> being able to defeat Pain if he knew his secret is more impressive than stalemating Gyuki or fighting an army imho.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Dude I'm gonna have to ask you to search the word fused/fusion up. Not to mention Jiraiya asked Ma and Pa to unfuse from him so he could learn more about the paths secrets.


"Defuse" is just to 

There is really nothing stopping Pain from using BT on them. Not that any of this matters anyway because he can merely ST the sound away as  And there is the fact Jiraiya has to run away in order to prepare this technique.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> "Defuse" is just to


So by detach do you think he means they're simply standing on his shoulder?

If so we didn't he just tell them to hop off his shoulder instead? Makes no sense if you think about it. The word "detach" is what you would say about something thats physically connected to you

Anyways you didn't provide the definition of the word fusion yet


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> So by detach do you think he means they're simply standing on his shoulder?
> 
> If so we didn't he just tell them to hop off his shoulder instead? Makes no sense if you think about it. The word "detach" is what you would say about something thats physically connected to you
> 
> Anyways you didn't provide the definition of the word fusion yet


Not really. Detach can just mean to separate. And if we're talking about what he literally said, all he did was say they should free themselves.

Fusion is to become one, although that isn't what Ma and Pa are doing considering we can see 3 separate entities.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Kisame could have broken out easily with his sharks.


 Why didn't he then?


> What stopped Itachi from putting Jiraiya in a Genjutsu the moment they made eye contact?


 How do you know Jiraiya made eye contact? Why would Jiraiya even make eye contact after just freeing a woman from it and being knowledgeable on it?


> Why would Itachi be referring to a weak member? Why would he mention a weak member if his intent was to defeat Jiraiya? His statement implies that he + Kisame + more Akatsuki would only *stalemate *Jiraiya. Do you really not see the problem with this?


 This statement is not much different than Shikaku stating that now that Naruto has learned senjutsu everyone else would only get in his way if they were to go help him against Pain. We know Kishimoto thought of Jiraiya's SM and Itachi's MS at this time, and he already portrayed Kisame as fodder compared to base Jiraiya, so why is it hard to believe that people of Kisame's level would be unable to make a difference in a fight on the scale of SM Jiraiya vs MS Itachi?


> Except Jiraiya's SM is not perfect and takes forever for him to get to, while Itachi can instantly get to MS. Certainly, Kishimoto would not draw Itachi dealing with Orochimaru with a mere Paralysis Genjutsu if his intent was to make Itachi Jiraiya's peer. The "match up" argument doesn't prove anything either as, if we're going by Part 1 (which you are perfectly fine with using for your arguments), Jiraiya stared Itachi right in the eye and gave him an opportunity to use Tsukuyomi. And Jiraiya has *nothing *that makes him better at dealing with Genjutsu over Orochimaru.


 It doesn't matter that his isn't perfect because that was never portrayed as being a big deal or mattering much in the series at all. It doesn't take him forever to get into it either, he did it in one chapter, and it's OOC for Itachi to immediately resort to MS. Even if he did, Jiraiya has ways of stalling Itachi until he can get into SM. Also, how Kishi draws Itachi dealing with Orochimaru is irrelevant when SM Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru is anyway,


> This is interesting. Surely taking on a defenseless immobile Nagato is not a better feat than stalemating Gyuki.


It's the fact that he fought all of the Pains, figured out their secret, and then managed to evade them to take out a defenseless Nagato is what makes it impressive.


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## Mawt (Nov 12, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Why didn't he then?


Either because of Part 1 or because Itachi did it for him.



Isaiah13000 said:


> How do you know Jiraiya made eye contact? Why would Jiraiya even make eye contact after just freeing a woman from it and being knowledgeable on it




Jiraiya wouldn't know everything about Itachi's Genjutsu skill based on just him placing a fodder in a Genjutsu.



Isaiah13000 said:


> This statement is not much different than Shikaku stating that now that Naruto has learned senjutsu everyone else would only get in his way if they were to go help him against Pain. We know Kishimoto thought of Jiraiya's SM and Itachi's MS at this time, and he already portrayed Kisame as fodder compared to base Jiraiya, so why is it hard to believe that people of Kisame's level would be unable to make a difference in a fight on the scale of SM Jiraiya vs MS Itachi?


No, because Naruto actually WAS in a different league.

How do we know Kishimoto knew of SM at that time? He didn't even have a MS pattern down.



Isaiah13000 said:


> It doesn't matter that his isn't perfect because that was never portrayed as being a big deal or mattering much in the series at all. It doesn't take him forever to get into it either, he did it in one chapter, and it's OOC for Itachi to immediately resort to MS. Even if he did, Jiraiya has ways of stalling Itachi until he can get into SM. Also, how Kishi draws Itachi dealing with Orochimaru is irrelevant when SM Jiraiya is stronger than Orochimaru is anyway,


Yes, it does matter because it's literally stated that SM Naruto, who was on par with MS Sasuke, surpassed Jiraiya in SM. And it's later proven by feats as well. 

Yes, one chapter. While Itachi can switch to MS in one panel.

It's also OOC of Jiraiya to use SM against somebody who isn't a Rinnegan bearer.

Yes, it is relevant mentioning Oro because his fight with Itachi proves base Jiraiya is susceptible to Genjutsu.



Isaiah13000 said:


> It's the fact that he fought all of the Pains, figured out their secret, and then managed to evade them to take out a defenseless Nagato is what makes it impressive.


Fought all Paths off screen and had to run away.

Figuring out their secret was largely due to him fighting all of them back when they were alive.

Managing to evade them has nothing to do with a battle. That shows he's stealthy.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 12, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Either because of Part 1 or because Itachi did it for him.


 Kisame had the same abilities in Part 1 as he did in Part 2, so I doubt that's the reason, it makes more sense that Itachi's stronger jutsu was required. 


> Jiraiya wouldn't know everything about Itachi's Genjutsu skill based on just him placing a fodder in a Genjutsu.


That doesn't mean he is looking directly into Itachi's eyes especially since he is facing Kisame in those panels. Also Jiraiya doesn't need to know about Itachi's specific skills, he knows about Sharingan genjutsu and that is enough to tell him not to look into his eyes. 


> No, because Naruto actually WAS in a different league.


 Jiraiya is actually in a different league compared to Kisame too, so I don't get your point. 


> How do we know Kishimoto knew of SM at that time? He didn't even have a MS pattern down.


In either DB1 or DB2 there is concept art of SM Jiraiya meaning even in Part 1 Kishimoto had thought of it. Furthermore, Jiraiya was also called the "Toad Sage" back then. 


> Yes, it does matter because it's literally stated that SM Naruto, who was on par with MS Sasuke, surpassed Jiraiya in SM. And it's later proven by feats as well.


 You're missing my point, I meant it doesn't matter in the sense that it doesn't lessen the SM-MS comparisons and parallels. 


> Yes, one chapter. While Itachi can switch to MS in one panel.


Itachi still needs to charge up any of his Mangekyo jutsu before he can use them, which gives Jiraiya enough time to react and do something in the meantime. 


> It's also OOC of Jiraiya to use SM against somebody who isn't a Rinnegan bearer.


 What is this based on? Him only using it against a Rinnegan user doesn't mean it's only IC for him to use it against them, Jiraiya has had all of two fights. 


> Yes, it is relevant mentioning Oro because his fight with Itachi proves base Jiraiya is susceptible to Genjutsu.


 How so? Jiraiya and Orochimaru have different arsenals and fighting styles. 


> Fought all Paths off screen and had to run away.


 He fought them all off-panel with one arm and managed to defeat one of them and temporarily escape. 


> Figuring out their secret was largely due to him fighting all of them back when they were alive.
> 
> Managing to evade them has nothing to do with a battle. That shows he's stealthy.


It's the fact that he managed to evade them while all of them were pursuing him and he only had one arm. What he did was noteworthy, as Pain, Zetsu, and Obito all acknowledged his strength due to that battle.


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## goombanthime (Nov 12, 2018)

A3, he could tank a FRS from KCM Naruto, which is much above anything SM jiraya can do, matched a full bijuu and stood his ground against 10 000 ninja for 3 day.


Limbo said:


> It looked more like Naruto broke it by counterattacking imo. It makes sense since later SM Naruto could easily pierce himself with a black rod .


It's because SM Naruto is stronger physically than pain

You can argue that Jman *might *be able to somehow pull a win, but A3 was most definitely portrayed as far faster, stronger, durable and had better stamina

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mawt (Nov 13, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kisame had the same abilities in Part 1 as he did in Part 2, so I doubt that's the reason, it makes more sense that Itachi's stronger jutsu was required.


There are feats that hint towards a retcon. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> That doesn't mean he is looking directly into Itachi's eyes especially since he is facing Kisame in those panels. Also Jiraiya doesn't need to know about Itachi's specific skills, he knows about Sharingan genjutsu and that is enough to tell him not to look into his eyes.


The way the panel is drawn, it's implied greatly that they were looking eye to eye. Jiraiya looked at Kisame next panel, not during that panel.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya is actually in a different league compared to Kisame too, so I don't get your point.


If we're talking about Part 1 Kisame, sure. But you're telling me Jiraiya > Pain? Because Pain counts as "back up". So does Obito. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> In either DB1 or DB2 there is concept art of SM Jiraiya meaning even in Part 1 Kishimoto had thought of it. Furthermore, Jiraiya was also called the "Toad Sage" back then.


Proof?

Toad Sage was his title. Has nothing to do with the actual form.



Isaiah13000 said:


> You're missing my point, I meant it doesn't matter in the sense that it doesn't lessen the SM-MS comparisons and parallels.


It does. Why else would Kishi go out of his way to establish his SM is weaker?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi still needs to charge up any of his Mangekyo jutsu before he can use them, which gives Jiraiya enough time to react and do something in the meantime.


Nope, only Ama.



Isaiah13000 said:


> What is this based on? Him only using it against a Rinnegan user doesn't mean it's only IC for him to use it against them, Jiraiya has had all of two fights.


Because it's explicitly stated he hates the form and used it against Pain because he had the Rinnegan.



Isaiah13000 said:


> How so? Jiraiya and Orochimaru have different arsenals and fighting styles.


This is irrelevant. We're talking about Genjutsu resistance.



Isaiah13000 said:


> He fought them all off-panel with one arm and managed to defeat one of them and temporarily escape.


Temporarily escape THEN defeat one.*



Isaiah13000 said:


> It's the fact that he managed to evade them while all of them were pursuing him and he only had one arm. What he did was noteworthy, as Pain, Zetsu, and Obito all acknowledged his strength due to that battle.


Agreed. But you clearly said in one of your posts Jiraiya can defeat Pain if he has knowledge on him. So you've changed points, factually.


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## Azula (Nov 13, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> You're using the argument that Jiraiya is portrayed stronger than Pain and that it would only take 2 Paths to defeat A3. But even if we say Jiraiya is truly stronger than Pain, this doesn't work because A3 is hard countered by one of the Paths you mentioned. That's like mentioning Kisame vs Bee in a fight between Kisame vs Jiraiya



This _*is* _portrayal.

If a character is too limited and gets dispatched so easily then he is portrayed lower. Preta hard counters all chakra based ninjutsu. Preta hard counters Kisame, hard counters Kakuzu, hard counters Mei. All of them go down the portrayal.

Preta also hard counters all of Jiraiya's ninjutsu but he can still get past it.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> it's debatable if Preta can absorb his Chakra before A3 slices it open with Nukite



Nukite isn't making past the barrier or his actual body like FRS. Speed isn't an issue for Preta path otherwise he would gotten injured when he got slammed by Senpo COR or Senpo FRS. He should have been shredded by Rasengan or cut by FRS according to your logic but he doesn't.

Ninjutsu on Preta is fail.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> How does this help with Human Path ripping his soul out quicker than he can kill it?



Once RCM gets sapped by Preta Human path has free reign on him.

Without RCM A3 won't be a threat to Human path. 1v1 Human would lose but not 2v1, not with backing of a path like Preta.



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Because Pain wasn't aware of Jiraiya's speed at that time, nor will he be aware of A3's speed at first glance either. A3 will blitz, just like Jiraiya. Except A3 will finish the job here because of Nukite



Jiraiya stood on his spot and was simply quicker in CQC and hit him with his kick. A3 was also out-done by a SM Naruto clone in CQC.

Blitz would be dealt with by Rinnegan and as far as CQC is concerned SM users>=Rinnegan shared vision>A3.

Preta is always sent first according to Pain's fighting style since most ninjas use ninjutsu first, and he will simply destroy RCM and Nukite.

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## Serene Grace (Nov 13, 2018)

@Itachiisinvincible 

"*Fusion of a Sage Toad and a part of the (user’s) body*; a jutsu that maintains combat-readiness. Dividing the roles of gathering Natural Energy “Stillness” and performing in combat “Motion”, using Sage Mode to its maximum practical use."

^^^databook entry for Senpou: Ryousei no Jutsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 13, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> There are feats that hint towards a retcon.


 Such as? If they're any of his feats when he was bolstered by Gyuki's chakra then that isn't proof of a retcon whatsoever. 


> The way the panel is drawn, it's implied greatly that they were looking eye to eye. Jiraiya looked at Kisame next panel, not during that panel.


 It doesn't make any logical sense for Jiraiya to look him in the eye though, so either he didn't, or Kishimoto simply didn't think about it at the time. I mean by this logic we might as well say Obito, Sasuke, and Madara all one-shot Minato, Naruto, and Hashirama cause they were seemingly looking each other directly in the eye during their confrontations. It's probably something Kishimoto simply didn't think about at the time. So I'm not going to hold it against Jiraiya or any other character. 


> If we're talking about Part 1 Kisame, sure. But you're telling me Jiraiya > Pain? Because Pain counts as "back up". So does Obito.


 From an in-universe perspective, that makes no sense whatsoever, why would Itachi be including Pain in his statement? He doesn't even know anything about Pain and Obito wasn't even apart of the Akatsuki as "Tobi" yet, rather he manipulated it from behind the scenes and didn't get directly involved in anything. His statement obviously didn't include Pain and Obito, he was referring to the other regular members of the group. But more importantly, from an out-of-universe one, that obviously couldn't have been the case because we know Pain and Obito alone are above Jiraiya. 


> Proof?
> 
> Toad Sage was his title. Has nothing to do with the actual form.


 I don't have the image nor do I know where to find it, but I've seen it before so it exists. Also yes it does, why would he be called the Toad Sage if he wasn't actually a Sage? Not to mention that but we know that Itachi knows of SM based on his discussion with Kabuto, so he likely suspected that Jiraiya had SM when he made the statement as well. 


> t does. Why else would Kishi go out of his way to establish his SM is weaker?


No it doesn't, his being weaker was never made a big deal at all at any point in the series. Kishimoto pointing out his is weaker was done to portray SM Naruto as Jiraiya's superior, not to say SM Jiraiya isn't on par with any MS user. 


> Nope, only Ama.


 Whenever Itachi went to initially use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, he closed his eye, it bled, and then he used it. That is called charging it, and they're of equal power in Itachi's case, so it makes no sense that one would need to be charged but not the other. 


> Because it's explicitly stated he hates the form and used it against Pain because he had the Rinnegan.


Jiraiya never had a chance or need to use it against anything else though, you're basically saying Jiraiya will let himself die rather than use SM even if he knows he needs it and that makes no sense. 


> This is irrelevant. We're talking about Genjutsu resistance.


Jiraiya doesn't need any actual resistance to it as he has other ways of dealing it such as blocking LoS. 


> Temporarily escape THEN defeat one.*


You know what I meant. 


> Agreed. But you clearly said in one of your posts Jiraiya can defeat Pain if he has knowledge on him. So you've changed points, factually.


One of my recent posts? Or older posts? Cause in all of my recent ones I never meant in a direct fight.


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## goombanthime (Nov 13, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Such as? If they're any of his feats when he was bolstered by Gyuki's chakra then that isn't proof of a retcon whatsoever.


He effortlessly overpowered base Guy at 30% and tank a heasdbutt from base B in part 2, when he struggled against Asuma in part 1


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## Blu-ray (Nov 13, 2018)

I don't think there's any portrayal that puts Jiraiya above A3. Going mano a mano with the second strongest Bijuu, forcing a stalemate, and even dealing significant damage to that Bijuu, all while _taking no damage from that Bijuu at all, _isn't something Jiraiya has anything on, especially when his closest comparison is almost dying to KN4.

Then there's his walling KCM Naruto. Jiraiya's best piece of portrayal was Pain's praise, but Naruto _surpassed that _in the Pain arc, and only improved significantly since then. Even his KCM clone was cleanly above Jiraiya. Yet it came up short against A3, and Naruto had to resort to using his own attack against him. Giving KCM Naruto that much difficulty, to the point he's stumped at not knowing how to beat you, is not something Jiraiya could ever claim to be capable of doing.

The fact that he fought the likes of Gyuuki and KCM Naruto in addition to all his other battles and the only thing to ever damage him was his own attack, is itself a notch in his_ superior portrayal _to Jiraiya belt.

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## Mawt (Nov 13, 2018)

Azula said:


> This _*is* _portrayal.
> 
> If a character is too limited and gets dispatched so easily then he is portrayed lower. Preta hard counters all chakra based ninjutsu. Preta hard counters Kisame, hard counters Kakuzu, hard counters Mei. All of them go down the portrayal.
> 
> Preta also hard counters all of Jiraiya's ninjutsu but he can still get past it.


No, they all go down to match up.



Azula said:


> Nukite isn't making past the barrier or his actual body like FRS. Speed isn't an issue for Preta path otherwise he would gotten injured when he got slammed by Senpo COR or Senpo FRS. He should have been shredded by Rasengan or cut by FRS according to your logic but he doesn't.
> 
> Ninjutsu on Preta is fail.


No, my point is Nukite could be too fast for Preta to react to. Neither of these techniques were too fast, and they were literally massive globs of Chakra being thrown at Preta. Nothing like Nukite.



Azula said:


> Once RCM gets sapped by Preta Human path has free reign on him.
> 
> Without RCM A3 won't be a threat to Human path. 1v1 Human would lose but not 2v1, not with backing of a path like Preta.


All assuming Preta absorbs A3 as easily as you think and A3 doesn't just blitz Human.



Azula said:


> Jiraiya stood on his spot and was simply quicker in CQC and hit him with his kick. A3 was also out-done by a SM Naruto clone in CQC.
> 
> Blitz would be dealt with by Rinnegan and as far as CQC is concerned SM users>=Rinnegan shared vision>A3.
> 
> Preta is always sent first according to Pain's fighting style since most ninjas use ninjutsu first, and he will simply destroy RCM and Nukite.


Jiraiya was quicker. So will be A3. SM Naruto Clone used reaction speed to deal with A3. Has nothing to do with who is faster.

Nope. Nukite is a one-shot. And A3 has ultra durability. SM Jiraiya's not superior in CQC, and how is he superior to Rinnegan shared vision which countered him in canon?  Rinnegan shared vision is also unquantifiable, btw.


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## Mawt (Nov 13, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Such as? If they're any of his feats when he was bolstered by Gyuki's chakra then that isn't proof of a retcon whatsoever.


His 30% Clone taking on all of Team Guy at once. Him dodging a blindside Chakra enhanced weapon in the fight against Bee (Samehada should have absorbed the wind blade's Chakra).



Isaiah13000 said:


> It doesn't make any logical sense for Jiraiya to look him in the eye though, so either he didn't, or Kishimoto simply didn't think about it at the time. I mean by this logic we might as well say Obito, Sasuke, and Madara all one-shot Minato, Naruto, and Hashirama cause they were seemingly looking each other directly in the eye during their confrontations. It's probably something Kishimoto simply didn't think about at the time. So I'm not going to hold it against Jiraiya or any other character.


Again, Jiraiya didn't know anything about Itachi's real Genjutsu capabilities. And there's the fact he actually thought he could take on both Kisame and Itachi while in bad conditions of him needing to protect Naruto and Sasuke both at once, so it could just be overconfidence on his part. Show me scans of these people all looking each other directly in the eye. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> From an in-universe perspective, that makes no sense whatsoever, why would Itachi be including Pain in his statement? He doesn't even know anything about Pain and Obito wasn't even apart of the Akatsuki as "Tobi" yet, rather he manipulated it from behind the scenes and didn't get directly involved in anything. His statement obviously didn't include Pain and Obito, he was referring to the other regular members of the group. But more importantly, from an out-of-universe one, that obviously couldn't have been the case because we know Pain and Obito alone are above Jiraiya.


From an in-universe perspective is what I'm referring to. And you have to give me proof Itachi was referring to lower members, because you haven't given any thus far. To me, it sounds like you're just trying to justify the statement. Itachi's goal in Part 1 was to capture the Kyuubi. Itachi was well aware of how powerful Pain and Obito were, yet he stated no amount of back up would change the outcome. 

And the argument that "Pain is the leader" doesn't make sense as Pain being leader did not stop him from fighting himself. As shown by how he literally was the second to take the role of capturing Kyuubi after Itachi's death..



Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't have the image nor do I know where to find it, but I've seen it before so it exists. Also yes it does, why would he be called the Toad Sage if he wasn't actually a Sage? Not to mention that but we know that Itachi knows of SM based on his discussion with Kabuto, so he likely suspected that Jiraiya had SM when he made the statement as well.


Can you describe to me what the page says?

Toad Sage is brief title that can mean anything. It does not mean it was referring to Sage Mode. How would it if his own student didn't know he had Sage Mode?

Itachi knows of SM. Doesn't mean he thought Jiraiya could use SM. That's never stated.



Isaiah13000 said:


> No it doesn't, his being weaker was never made a big deal at all at any point in the series. Kishimoto pointing out his is weaker was done to portray SM Naruto as Jiraiya's superior, not to say SM Jiraiya isn't on par with any MS user.


You're mentioning SM-MS parallels as reasoning for Jiraiya = Itachi. Again, Jiraiya's SM is established as weaker. That doesn't work. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Whenever Itachi went to initially use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, he closed his eye, it bled, and then he used it. That is called charging it, and they're of equal power in Itachi's case, so it makes no sense that one would need to be charged but not the other.


Itachi vs Kakashi? Itachi vs (kid) Sasuke? Tsukuyomi's "charge" time is either nonexistent or is very short.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya never had a chance or need to use it against anything else though, you're basically saying Jiraiya will let himself die rather than use SM even if he knows he needs it and that makes no sense.


I'm not. You're the one who first made the character argument.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Jiraiya doesn't need any actual resistance to it as he has other ways of dealing it such as blocking LoS.


Sure, if it's Shippuden.



Isaiah13000 said:


> One of my recent posts? Or older posts? Cause in all of my recent ones I never meant in a direct fight.


First post ITT.


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## Mawt (Nov 13, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @Itachiisinvincible
> 
> "*Fusion of a Sage Toad and a part of the (user’s) body*; a jutsu that maintains combat-readiness. Dividing the roles of gathering Natural Energy “Stillness” and performing in combat “Motion”, using Sage Mode to its maximum practical use."
> 
> ^^^databook entry for Senpou: Ryousei no Jutsu


Thank you for giving me proof. Now counter my ST argument.


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## Crow (Nov 13, 2018)

I say that A3's feats are more solid than Jiraiya's tbh. A3 fought Gyuki on multiple occasions to a standstill and Jiraiya was scarred from fighting a 4 tailed Naruto. Although he had no killing intent I think A3's feats of fighting a whole entire tailed beast is better than Jiraiya's feat of subduing a 4 tailed Naruto. A3's offensive and defensive feats by themselves should prove to you that he's Jiraiya's superior. He was able to tank an FRS from a KCM Naruto, and he could only be harmed by his own jutsu. His offensive feats of being able to cut anything including Gyuki's tails with his Hell thrust is a crazy feat in itself. The man fought thousands of ninja for 3 days and nights before even dying, I don't see Jiraiya replicating that feat. 

Jiraiya is an exceptional shinobi and he is very gifted, but I don't see him replicating A3's feats of fighting a fully unleashed tailed beast or the pure durability that A3 exhibited so I say that A3's portrayal is stronger.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 13, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Thank you for giving me proof. Now counter my ST argument.


I was merely refuting the BT'ing Pa argument to rid Jiraiya of his SM


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## Mawt (Nov 13, 2018)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I was merely refuting the BT'ing Pa argument to rid Jiraiya of his SM


So you agree with me?


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## Sapherosth (Nov 13, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kisame had the same abilities in Part 1 as he did in Part 2, so I doubt that's the reason, it makes more sense that Itachi's stronger jutsu was required.
> That doesn't mean he is looking directly into Itachi's eyes especially since he is facing Kisame in those panels. *Also Jiraiya doesn't need to know about Itachi's specific skills, he knows about Sharingan genjutsu and that is enough to tell him not to look into his eyes*.



This is an absolute trash of an argument. 

"He knows about sharingan genjutsu, that's enough to avoid it." What the actual fuck? Chiyo knows about it and so does every shinobi out there knows about Sharingan genjutsu. THEY couldn't avoid it hence the "If you're alone, run" moniker. 

But yeah, it's Jiraiya. Fuck logic. 

Guess what, we see Gaara who's also highly intelligent, knows about Sharingan genjutsu AND MS yet he STILL looks at fucking Madara of all people in the eyes and told others about it. Orochimaru also knows about it but got caught. Deidara knows about it but got caught. Naruto knows about it and got caught too. Cee knows about it and is a genjutsu user/sensor but got caught. 

These are people who knows about it but got caught. Jiraiya isn't going to be any different.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 13, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> This is an absolute trash of an argument.
> 
> "He knows about sharingan genjutsu, that's enough to avoid it." What the actual fuck? Chiyo knows about it and so does every shinobi out there knows about Sharingan genjutsu. THEY couldn't avoid it hence the "If you're alone, run" moniker.
> 
> But yeah, it's Jiraiya. Fuck logic.


 Lol, I'm not sure if I said something misleading or if you're simply going off on a tangent for no reason based on a misunderstanding. Either way, I never argued that knowing about it is enough to avoid it, my point was since he knew about it he wouldn't stare him in the eyes on purpose like a moron. 


> Guess what, we see Gaara who's also highly intelligent, knows about Sharingan genjutsu AND MS yet he STILL looks at fucking Madara of all people in the eyes and told others about it. Orochimaru also knows about it but got caught. Deidara knows about it but got caught. Naruto knows about it and got caught too. Cee knows about it and is a genjutsu user/sensor but got caught.


 Very disingenuous argument here, the only reason Gaara said look at his eyes is because it was to point out that he was Edo Tensei. 


> These are people who knows about it but got caught. Jiraiya isn't going to be any different.


You don't say?


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## Sapherosth (Nov 13, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Lol, I'm not sure if I said something misleading or if you're simply going off on a tangent for no reason based on a misunderstanding. Either way, I never argued that knowing about it is enough to avoid it, my point was since he knew about it he wouldn't stare him in the eyes on purpose like a moron.
> Very disingenuous argument here, the only reason Gaara said look at his eyes is because it was to point out that he was Edo Tensei.
> You don't say?




Lol, you said Jiraiya would simply not look at the sharingan just because he knows about it. I already showed you it's false logic. Gaara looking at it is exactly the normal reaction someone would have when facing a new enemy. It would have made zero difference if he was Edo or not. The fact is he looked.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 13, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol, you said Jiraiya would simply not look at the sharingan just because he knows about it. I already showed you it's false logic. Gaara looking at it is exactly the normal reaction someone would have when facing a new enemy. It would have made zero difference if he was Edo or not. The fact is he looked.


 Not really, like I said, Gaara only looked because he wanted to point out he was Edo Tensei. Why the fuck would Jiraiya look Itachi into his eyes on purpose right after freeing a woman from a genjutsu he knows Itachi can place people in via eye contact? Literally not logical at all.

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## Sapherosth (Nov 14, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Not really, like I said, *Gaara only looked because he wanted to point out he was Edo Tensei*. Why the fuck would Jiraiya look Itachi into his eyes on purpose right after freeing a woman from a genjutsu he knows Itachi can place people in via eye contact? Literally not logical at all.





What you said makes zero sense. He looks at the sharingan JUST to point out that Madara was Edo tensei? No...He looked at it first and THEN noticed that it was edo tensei. The part about edo tensei is irrelevant because if it had been an alive Madara, Gaara would have looked at it all the same. 


Also, how does Jiraiya know it was a sharingan genjutsu? It could have been any other type. Visual genjutsu's aren't the only ones available.

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## King Ramirez (Nov 14, 2018)

Lol at Jiraiya being stronger than A3. Lol again.
This guy fought and stalemated Gyuki, fought 10,000 shinobi for 3 days and nights. Sorry but A3 is portrayed stronger and also has better feats.

WA SM Naruto only beat A3 because of the intel he got from Gyuki. Without knowledge;
A3 > WA SM Naruto >>> SM Jiraiya

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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 14, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> What you said makes zero sense. He looks at the sharingan JUST to point out that Madara was Edo tensei? No...He looked at it first and THEN noticed that it was edo tensei. The part about edo tensei is irrelevant because if it had been an alive Madara, Gaara would have looked at it all the same.


 Then the only reason Gaara did that is because an actual fight hadn't begun between them yet, in a real fight, it makes no sense for Gaara to have done that either. You can't use a plot critical moment that was done to point out that he was the real Madara and the other was a fake to suggest that Gaara would just look right into an Uchiha's eyes on purpose and be one-shotted normally. Especially when he was warned by Onoki to not look into his eyes a moment later. If you believe he'd still be caught in a fight that's one thing, but acting like it's logical or normal for anyone to purposely stare them in the eyes is ridiculous. 


> Also, how does Jiraiya know it was a sharingan genjutsu? It could have been any other type. Visual genjutsu's aren't the only ones available.


  "Saimingan" means "Eye of Hypnotism" or "Hypnotic Eye" as seen here: 
  So Jiraiya is clearly aware of the Sharingan's genjutsu abilities. Doesn't mean he has resistance or immunity to it, but it does mean he wouldn't look into their eyes on purpose.

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## LostSelf (Nov 14, 2018)

It depends. While I can't see A3 beating Pain, I can't see Jiraiya beating Hachibi or stalemating it. Even though A3 stalemated the Bijuu without a special location that allowed him to do so and without ambiguous "secret" that might not mean besting Pain either and other things. So A3 holds more ground against Hachibi than Jiraiya's hype vs Pain. Both would be wasted by Pain in a neutral setting. 

That said, I think they're generally on the same level.


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## Bonly (Nov 14, 2018)

Jiraiya is portrayed better just like the other Sannin are. Most of the Sandaime's portrayal comes his tough body and fighting Gyuki whereas the Sannin are constantly portrayed as being highly respected and well known ninja that can change the tide of a war and win a war. Jiraiya being a constant threat to the Akatsuki, learning lots of info about the Akatsuki and passing it along, being able to beat the figure head leader in a situation with knowledge, etc. is above fighting a Bijuu and having a tough body


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## Grinningfox (Nov 14, 2018)

I’m backing the guy who stalemated a Biju


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## Turrin (Nov 14, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> I don't think there's any portrayal that puts Jiraiya above A3. Going mano a mano with the second strongest Bijuu, forcing a stalemate, and even dealing significant damage to that Bijuu, all while _taking no damage from that Bijuu at all, _isn't something Jiraiya has anything on, especially when his closest comparison is almost dying to KN4.
> 
> Then there's his walling KCM Naruto. Jiraiya's best piece of portrayal was Pain's praise, but Naruto _surpassed that _in the Pain arc, and only improved significantly since then. Even his KCM clone was cleanly above Jiraiya. Yet it came up short against A3, and Naruto had to resort to using his own attack against him. Giving KCM Naruto that much difficulty, to the point he's stumped at not knowing how to beat you, is not something Jiraiya could ever claim to be capable of doing.
> 
> The fact that he fought the likes of Gyuuki and KCM Naruto in addition to all his other battles and the only thing to ever damage him was his own attack, is itself a notch in his_ superior portrayal _to Jiraiya belt.


You really believe Jiraiya couldn’t give a single Kcm clone high difficulty. Come on now that’s absurd.

As Sandaimes hype goes he force a draw with Hachibi when he at the very least had the intel advantage if not back up from other individuals in the village. Jiraiya under beneficial circumstance can take down Pain who is cleanly above Hachibi as an opponen. Taking 10,000 shinobi on is great but let’s be honest once you get to the level of Jiraiya that isn’t surprising. Sasori was able to solo a country and he didn’t die; and Orochimaru Jiraiyas rival was stated able to take down a country too. And an entire hidden village was considered basically useless backup to a Sage and Jiraiya even remarks that maybe the entire village of suna might be able to stop him from capturing its kazekage. Jiraiya is on that level of fodder control too. 

Jiraiyas hype is better then Sandaimes by at least a little bit because he has statement made in relation to major plot relevant powerful characters like being able to rival Orochi, Itachi, etc... while Sandaime took on a single clone of Naruto. Come on you know this is different.

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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 14, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> His 30% Clone taking on all of Team Guy at once. Him dodging a blindside Chakra enhanced weapon in the fight against Bee (Samehada should have absorbed the wind blade's Chakra).


 How is that a retcon? He never even went all-out in Part 1 to properly gauge his power.


> Again, Jiraiya didn't know anything about Itachi's real Genjutsu capabilities. And there's the fact he actually thought he could take on both Kisame and Itachi while in bad conditions of him needing to protect Naruto and Sasuke both at once, so it could just be overconfidence on his part. Show me scans of these people all looking each other directly in the eye.


 
As you can see, Jiraiya is not the only character who seemingly looked an Uchiha in the eyes during a fight with them. So like I said, either they didn't really make eye contact or Kishimoto didn't care about it/think about it at the time. But I'm not going to single out Jiraiya only and use that against him when others have done it as well. Are we to say that they all get one-shotted at the start of a fight with an Uchiha too?


> From an in-universe perspective is what I'm referring to. And you have to give me proof Itachi was referring to lower members, because you haven't given any thus far. To me, it sounds like you're just trying to justify the statement. Itachi's goal in Part 1 was to capture the Kyuubi. Itachi was well aware of how powerful Pain and Obito were, yet he stated no amount of back up would change the outcome.
> 
> And the argument that "Pain is the leader" doesn't make sense as Pain being leader did not stop him from fighting himself. As shown by how he literally was the second to take the role of capturing Kyuubi after Itachi's death..


 From an in-universe perspective, where is the proof that Itachi knew about Pain's abilities? Also like I said, Obito wasn't even an official member of it at that point so why would he be included? Also, do you accept Itachi's other statements about Kakashi and Guy's strength to be true? If so, why theirs and not Jiraiya's?


> Can you describe to me what the page says?


 It's just a drawing of Jiraiya with two toads on his shoulders using a fire jutsu.


> Toad Sage is brief title that can mean anything. It does not mean it was referring to Sage Mode. How would it if his own student didn't know he had Sage Mode?


 Which student are you referring to? Naruto didn't know it existed and Minato knew about it. Nagato must not have known because Jiraiya never told him he could and Nagato might not have known about Sages in general.


> Itachi knows of SM. Doesn't mean he thought Jiraiya could use SM. That's never stated.


I'm just saying it's implied he suspected it. Jiraiya's title is the "Toad Sage", there is concept art of SM Jiraiya in the databooks, and Itachi knows about SM and where it comes from. All you have to do is put two and two together.


> You're mentioning SM-MS parallels as reasoning for Jiraiya = Itachi. Again, Jiraiya's SM is established as weaker. That doesn't work.


 Itachi's MS is also weaker than Sasuke's MS, as Sasuke has superior eyes and his has the "Straight Tomoe" and Itachi's doesn't. So you see, SM Naruto surpassed SM Jiraiya in senjutsu, and MS Sasuke surpassed MS Itachi in dojutsu. So the parallel still fits.


> Itachi vs Kakashi? Itachi vs (kid) Sasuke? Tsukuyomi's "charge" time is either nonexistent or is very short.


 It exists, it's simply not that long.


> I'm not. You're the one who first made the character argument.


 The difference is I didn't say Itachi wouldn't use it all, I said he wouldn't use it immediately which he wouldn't, just like how Jiraiya wouldn't immediately use SM.


> Sure, if it's Shippuden.


 Jiraiya has the same abilities in Part 1 as he did in Part 2.


> First post ITT.


I never meant in a direct fight, you just misinterpreted what I meant. I clarified that earlier.

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## Speedyamell (Nov 14, 2018)

Portrayal: sannin > hiruzen > other kage of his time..including A3..

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## Kisame (Nov 14, 2018)

Speedyamell said:


> Portrayal: sannin > hiruzen > other kage of his time..including A3..


Wasn't A4 the Raikage during Hiruzen's time, and not A3?


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## Speedyamell (Nov 14, 2018)

Shark said:


> Wasn't A4 the Raikage during Hiruzen's time, and not A3?


 Thats correct.
But i think the point still stands as A3~A4(roughly the same)

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 14, 2018)

Jiraiya has summons that can put up a good fight against Bijuu solo. People like Rasa, Kakazu/Hidan, and Deidara have wins over Bijuu. The 50% Kyuubi can handle four by itself without much trouble.

I don’t think that stalemating a wild Bijuu is that big of a feat or that the wild Bijuu are much if any stronger than 50% Kn4. Kn4 has closely matched fights with Base Jiraiya and armless Base Orochimaru, which is better than losing to Rasa or losing to Hidan/Kakuzu. 

If the Hachibi is stronger than thenBijuu with less tails then the wild Hachibi might be as strong as Kn6, but overall nothing places Bijuu 1-8 at some kind of obscene level. The general depiction in the series is that Kage level Ninja almost always beat Bijuu below the Kyuubi.

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## Blu-ray (Nov 14, 2018)

Turrin said:


> You really believe Jiraiya couldn’t give a single Kcm clone high difficulty.


No, I don't. At least, not to point Naruto would be stumped at how to defeat him and have KCM fail at getting the job done altogether. I don't think Jiraiya would come close to that.



> Come on now that’s absurd.


Hardly. I can't even see MS Sasuke doing much more than stall and he's someone I hold even above Jiraiya.


> As Sandaimes hype goes he force a draw with Hachibi when he at the very least had the intel advantage


You're reaching. He was never stated to have any advantage over the beast, knowledge would have went both ways since Gyuuki would be aware of his abilities from his previous rampages, and knowledge is hardly relevant against Gyuuki when his only trick is only usable with a Jinchuriki.



> if not back up from other individuals in the village.


It went on a rampage several times. The battle where he stalemated it and got his scar was explicitly stated to be one where he fought it .



> Taking 10,000 shinobi on is great but let’s be honest once you get to the level of Jiraiya that isn’t surprising. Sasori was able to solo a country and he didn’t die; and Orochimaru Jiraiyas rival was stated able to take down a country too.


Taking down a country is too vague to be compared to the Third. 10,000 ninja is concrete. Countries on the other hand range from being as strong as the Land of Fire, to being as weak as the Land of Waves which doesn't even have ninja, and wasn't close to being unique in that regard.

The fact that all 5 of the Great Shinobi Nations in addition to the Land of Iron's Samurai could only muster a combined force 80,000 should show you how significant the 3rds feat of taking on 10,000 is. He was practically fighting a major village on his for three days straight and not one of them actually managed to put him down.



> And an entire hidden village was considered basically useless backup to a Sage and Jiraiya even remarks that maybe the entire village of suna might be able to stop him from capturing its kazekage. Jiraiya is on that level of fodder control too.


That turned out to be bullshit when one of those villages who was practically called useless to his face went and supported a stronger Naruto against a far stronger enemy.



> Jiraiyas hype is better then Sandaimes by at least a little bit because he has statement made in relation to major plot relevant powerful characters like being able to rival Orochi, Itachi, etc...while Sandaime took on a single clone of Naruto. Come on you know this is different.


Plot relevance doesn't suddenly make his hype better than it actually is, and being a clone doesn't negate the level the clone is actually on.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 14, 2018)

Chiyo, Kimimaro, and Black Zetsu could hold their own against KCM clones. A3 being the only Edo to get taken out by a KCM clone (that isn’t backed by Kage) is an anti-feat, not a feat for A3.


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## goombanthime (Nov 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Chiyo, Kimimaro, and Black Zetsu could hold their own against KCM clones. A3 being the only Edo to get taken out by a KCM clone (that isn’t backed by Kage) is an anti-feat, not a feat for A3.


Yea let's just ignore he tanked Naruto's strongest attack (which is miles above anything Jman can do) with had an elemental advantage and that he was only taken out by his own attack


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 14, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> Yea let's just ignore he tanked Naruto's strongest attack (which is miles above anything Jman can do) with had an elemental advantage and that he was only taken out by his own attack


Did he really tank it, or did he merely survive because he’s an ET?

Regardless, last I checked Ninja don’t win fights by surviving other Ninja’s attacks, they do it by killing other ninja with their own attacks. He lost to a KCM clone with Dodai and fodder backup whether he actually tanked FRS or not, while substantially weaker characters were shown holding their own against KCM clones backed up by fodder.


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## goombanthime (Nov 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Did he really tank it, or did he merely survive because he’s an ET?


You were one of the one defending portrays over feat, no?
Douai literally made a comment on how durable he was right afterward, which mean the author meant to show how durable he was with that feat


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Regardless, last I checked Ninja don’t win fights by surviving other Ninja’s attacks, they do it by killing other ninja with their own attacks


Actually, most fight involve either avoiding or negating on another justu, outright tanking it is usually reserve to show the superiority. ex:KN0 against Sasuke before he used cm2


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> while substantially weaker characters were shown holding their own against KCM clones backed up by fodder.


Are you saying KCM Naruto clones are low kage or something? he could dodge attacks from A3 who he stayed to be about as fast as A4, so we know he is about as fast.


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> they do it by killing other ninja with their own attacks.


I love how everything is about matchup when Jman is involved but when it's somebody else, the fight is completely ignored in favour of the conclusion. Which means kid Naruto > Kabuto, pain arc base Naruto > deva path, kid Konnohamaru > Naraka path, Kiba and his mom = pretha path. I guess Jman feat against pain is not impressive considering all the fodder that could keep up with him.

Edit:since you also mention intel in you're post, I think it would be appropriate to remind you that naruto only won because of intel he got on A3 by Bee


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## Blu-ray (Nov 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> A3 being the only Edo to get taken out by a KCM clone (that isn’t backed by Kage) is an anti-feat, not a feat for A3.





Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I don’t think that stalemating a wild Bijuu is that big of a feat


You've got a genuine knack for downplay. I didn't think anyone else could so masterfully make taking on a Bijuu and walling KCM Naruto seem so utterly unimpressive. It's like the battledome equivalent of a parent with overly high expectations, where a report card with an A minus means you didn't try hard enough.

But sorry lad, that just won't cut it. A3 wasn't Gyuki's natural counter like Rasa was to Shukaku. He wasn't fighting a weak imitation like Gaara's and Yugito's transformations, and summons being able to "fight" Bijuu, is not even remotely comparable to actually being able to _stalemate_ one. 

Furthermore, when two of the guys revived beside you get taken down by Gaara, losing to KCM Naruto (not even that. The mode flat out didn't cut it) is not an anti feat.

Finally, there's no need to downplay each and every thing that's used as a talking point that's not in favour of Jiraiya. It's why people constantly go, in @Hi no Ishi words, _"b-but Jiraiya!!"_ in damn near every thread.

If bringing Gyuuki to a stalemate while taking no damage from it in return, and pushing KCM to his wits end and only losing because you were literally mindless is unimpressive, what does that make Jiraiya damn near dying to KN4? Fighting Gyuuki to a stalemate is _not_ something Jiraiya can do. Taking on that KCM clone and giving him so much difficulty that he doesn't know how to beat you is _not_ something Jiraiya can do. Making those out to be unimpressive only does the opposite of elevating Jiraiya.


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## Mawt (Nov 14, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> How is that a retcon? He never even went all-out in Part 1 to properly gauge his power.


Because they are better feats. How did his 30% Clone overpower Guy in close quarters combat when he got scratched by Asuma in Shippuden? Are you telling me Asuma is superior to Guy in close quarters?

How didn't Samehada absorb the Chakra from his Chakra Blade?



Isaiah13000 said:


> *Spoiler*:
> As you can see, Jiraiya is not the only character who seemingly looked an Uchiha in the eyes during a fight with them. So like I said, either they didn't really make eye contact or Kishimoto didn't care about it/think about it at the time. But I'm not going to single out Jiraiya only and use that against him when others have done it as well. Are we to say that they all get one-shotted at the start of a fight with an Uchiha too?


I concede, although I still do see Genjutsu being a crucial factor in this fight.



Isaiah13000 said:


> From an in-universe perspective, where is the proof that Itachi knew about Pain's abilities? Also like I said, Obito wasn't even an official member of it at that point so why would he be included? Also, do you accept Itachi's other statements about Kakashi and Guy's strength to be true? If so, why theirs and not Jiraiya's?


Itachi knew Nagato possessed the Rinnegan, and it is implied he knew of the immense power of the Rinnegan as well because he states they could do anything with the power of Nagato's Rinnegan and his Mangekyou Sharingan. Obito would be included because Itachi knew about him, and he still counts as back up.

If Itachi was including the Gates when he was talking about Guy, then I agree because it is confirmed by later feats. However, base Guy being a threat to Kisame is a joke.

I don't remember Itachi acknowledging Kakashi of being much.

I do not accept what he said about Jiraiya because I find it laughably false. You are telling me Jiraiya can casually one-shot Mid Kage level fighters in base?



Isaiah13000 said:


> It's just a drawing of Jiraiya with two toads on his shoulders using a fire jutsu.


That does not prove anything about Sage Mode though.

For all we know, his Sage Mode design could be the one which is inspired by that drawing, and not the other way around.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Which student are you referring to? Naruto didn't know it existed and Minato knew about it. Nagato must not have known because Jiraiya never told him he could and Nagato might not have known about Sages in general.


I am referring to Naruto and Nagato.

Minato knew about Sage Mode because he actually learned it.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm just saying it's implied he suspected it. Jiraiya's title is the "Toad Sage", there is concept art of SM Jiraiya in the databooks, and Itachi knows about SM and where it comes from. All you have to do is put two and two together.


Itachi also knew Kabuto was a Sage, but he did not run away like a coward while claiming he and the rest of the Akatsuki can't hope to accomplish anything.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi's MS is also weaker than Sasuke's MS, as Sasuke has superior eyes and his has the "Straight Tomoe" and Itachi's doesn't. So you see, SM Naruto surpassed SM Jiraiya in senjutsu, and MS Sasuke surpassed MS Itachi in dojutsu. So the parallel still fits.


What? Please tell me why it would be stated that Sasuke's visual prowess surpassed Itachi after he awakened Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan then instead of Mangekyou Sharingan?

The parallel argument does not even work. How does them bestowing powers to people mean anything about how powerful they are? Or are you telling me Obito and Kabuto are also equal?



Isaiah13000 said:


> It exists, it's simply not that long.


Then the only one worth mentioning is Amaterasu, and it is common knowledge that Amaterasu takes a while to fire.



Isaiah13000 said:


> The difference is I didn't say Itachi wouldn't use it all, I said he wouldn't use it immediately which he wouldn't, just like how Jiraiya wouldn't immediately use SM.


I am sorry if it sounded like I said Jiraiya would never use Sage Mode, but my point was he only used Sage Mode against Pain because he had the Rinnegan. So the chances of him immediately using it against the guy who is his "equal" (while Itachi has back up and while Jiraiya has to protect 2 kids) right off the bat aren't huge. That is why it is a big factor.

The difference between immediately using Sage Mode and immediately using the Mangekyou Sharingan is that one of them can be accomplished in one page while the other takes an entire chapter. Not to mention, base Jiraiya has already pushed Itachi into using the Mangekyou Sharingan with a single technique according to you, so there is that.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I never meant in a direct fight, you just misinterpreted what I meant. I clarified that earlier.


There is quite a big difference between saying Jiraiya can defeat Pain with knowledge and saying he can defeat a crippled and emaciated Nagato (you also claimed this feat falls under the category of feats Jiraiya has accomplished that are superior to the Third Raikage's)


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 14, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> Are you saying KCM Naruto clones are low kage or something?


I don’t consider them low Kage. They typically struggle with opponents like Chiyo, Kimi, or Black Zetsu. I would consider them Entry Level Kage.



> he could dodge attacks from A3 who he stayed to be about as fast as A4, so we know he is about as fast.



They move at speeds that Suigetsu, Dodai, and Jugo can react to. It’s not that great.



> I love how everything is about matchup when Jman is involved but when it's somebody else, the fight is completely ignored in favour of the conclusion. Which means kid Naruto > Kabuto, pain arc base Naruto > deva path, kid Konnohamaru > Naraka path, Kiba and his mom = pretha path. I guess Jman feat against pain is not impressive considering all the fodder that could keep up with him.



I think you should read the manga.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 14, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> You've got a genuine knack for downplay. I didn't think anyone else could so masterfully make taking on a Bijuu and walling KCM Naruto seem so utterly unimpressive. It's like the battledome equivalent of a parent with overly high expectations, where a report card with an A minus means you didn't try hard enough.



Sure enough, while saying this you managed to say something you know isn’t true in order to poison the well.



> I didn't think anyone else could so masterfully make taking on a Bijuu and *walling KCM Naruto *seem so utterly unimpressive.



This never happened and you know it. AAA fought KCM Naruto’s Clone. The same clones who struggle with people like Black Zetsu, Chiyo, and Kimi. If AAA fought KCM Naruto he would have been quickly overwhelmed.



> But sorry lad, that just won't cut it. A3 wasn't Gyuki's natural counter like Rasa was to Shukaku.



Rasa also hard countered Gaara but lost quickly, albeit with Gaara having some advantage of his own to help. Rasa initially thought Gaara must have been Shukaku. It doesn’t sound like Shukaku is even as strong as WA Gaara.



> He wasn't fighting a weak imitation like Gaara's and Yugito's transformations,



Why are they so weak? Are they slower? Less durable? We saw the scale of Shukaku and Gamabunta hurling giant attacks and saw Two Tails destroyed a village.



> and summons being able to "fight" Bijuu,



You can remove the scare quotes. Gamabunta really fought Shukaku and held him off long enough for Gaara to be disabled.



> is not even remotely comparable to actually being able to _stalemate_ one.



If the Hachibi’s statement about the number of Tails not determining the strength of the Bijuu than those feats are more impressive than AAA stalemating a Bijuu. If Hachibi is wrong, than those feats still aren’t significantly worse.



> Furthermore, when two of the guys revived beside you get taken down by Gaara, losing to KCM Naruto (not even that. The mode flat out didn't cut it) is not an anti feat.



No, not even that, it wasn’t KCM Naruto, it was his clone.



> Finally, there's no need to downplay each and every thing that's used as a talking point that's not in favour of Jiraiya. It's why people constantly go, in @Hi no Ishi words, _"b-but Jiraiya!!"_ in damn near every thread.



I’m not the one who holds absurd views, like the Sannin getting solo’d by Killer Bee.



> If bringing Gyuuki to a stalemate while taking no damage from it in return, and pushing KCM to his wits end



This never happened. AAA fought KCM Naruto’s clone, who was shown struggling with Chiyo/Kimi/Zetsu. If AAA fought the real Naruto he would be destroyed quickly.



> what does that make Jiraiya damn near dying to KN4?



There’s no way to scale them as we don’t know how strong Kn4 is compared to Hachibi. We know that the 50% Kyuubi is roughly 4 times stronger than normal Bijuu, so it’s hard to say.

But given that Jiraiya was in base and unlike AAA he actually won, Jiraiya’s feat is potentially better.




> Fighting Gyuuki to a stalemate is _not_ something Jiraiya can do.



Right, because Jiraiya would defeat it. Just as every Kage and Akatsuki seem to defeat Bijuu 1-8 when they encounter each other.



> Taking on that KCM clone and giving him so much difficulty that he doesn't know how to beat you is _not_ something Jiraiya can do.



Once again, you’re right. Given the trouble far weaker characters like Kimimaro/Chiyo/Zetsu gave him, Base Jiraiya would likely overwhelm a clone quickly while SM Jiraiya would certainly take out a KCM clone quickly.

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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> No, I don't. At least, not to point Naruto would be stumped at how to defeat him and have KCM fail at getting the job done altogether. I don't think Jiraiya would come close to that.
> 
> 
> Hardly. I can't even see MS Sasuke doing much more than stall and he's someone I hold even above Jiraiya.
> ...



1. We saw Kimmimaro and Bz give Kcm Naruto clones a hard time. You are vastly overrating them.

2. The time when we saw Sandaime fight Hachibi on panel he had a huge amount of back up. Your just assuming that somehow it was a 1v1 that time. And knowledge always matters. Ether way Jiraiya has the portrayal of being able to go up against characters like Orochimaru, Pain, and Itachi which is better then drawing with Hachibi under unknown circumstances

3. 10k ninja isn’t concrete as ninja range from garbage fodder level where Sasuke can take 1k without even a single scratch despite being weaker then Jiraiya to an elite unit like the Kinkaku force. Both taking down a country / village, and taking on 10k are suppose to be similar hype indicating that these ninja are so strong numbers are nearly meaningless. 

4. Your talking about Gai, using 8th gate? That really doesn’t change the sentiment of the statement that a sage is so far above the level of the average leaf Jonin that even on mass they can’t do anything to assist him. 

5.Being one of like 13 other clones certainly lowers that clones level because Narutos chakra is split between them and it only requiring one hit to take down the clone. That’s why we see the clones requiring back up against any high level enemy even Kimi and BZ

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## LostSelf (Nov 15, 2018)

No Naruto clone showed as much power and proficiency as the clone that fought Madara.

Or are we going to say Muu would lose to Kimimaro? Because that'd be extremely absurd. We can't compare "Datclone" with the other clones to downplay a single character while ignoring the repercussions it would have on others.

Datclone is datclone, and those feats are the ones we have to take in consideration. And by no means losing to Datclone invalidates his feat of stalemating Hachibi or the 10,000 shinobis. The clone took down Kage levels, or landed significant hits on them. Jiraiya on the Sandaime's place there wouldn't have make it past the part Naruto has to find an especific and lucky shot to be defeated.

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## goombanthime (Nov 15, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I don’t consider them low Kage. They typically struggle with opponents like Chiyo, Kimi, or Black Zetsu. I would consider them Entry Level Kage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


KCM Naruto clone keeping up with A3 mean he was similar speed to the original which mean they have comparable stat, which mean he can easily tank anything Jman has. 

(if you want speed feat, I could bring up how he moved his intern body out of the way of out a point blank FRS while pain could barely dodge it on two separate occasion on much larger distance, the human path, which effortlessly blocked a punch from Jiraya at close range got half of his body disintegrated)

Senpo: cho odama rasengan is arguably Jman strongest attack yet it is inferior to SM Naruto version, which is much weaker than SM Naruto FRS, which weaker than the KCM version of the attack.
You're the kind that goes off on author intent, yet ignore the actual thing Kishi showed in favour of off screen fight

I was bringing up fodder keeping up with pain to show that "fodder help" doesn't mean that they are low kage or something, that the conclusion is not everything in a fight and that in two of the example I gave they're is  a much weaker character beating a stronger free with a rasengan, which goes to show how far above KCM Naruto A3 was.

A3 vs Naruto was clearly meant as a David vs Goliath kind of deal, with Naruto using his strongest attack and falling do do any real damage before using his opponent own strength against him. It also served to show that Naruto was still not Bijuu level and still had a way to go, with him not being able to do a TBB and falling to do any damage to A3, which is later shown against the bijuu were he could barely keep Son hand and mouth open and that B told him to stay back before he achieved BM.

You seem incapable to admit that there is power inflation in this shonen manga or that statement can be retconned


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## Blu-ray (Nov 15, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Sure enough, while saying this you managed to say something you know isn’t true in order to poison the well.
> 
> 
> 
> This never happened and you know it. AAA fought KCM Naruto’s Clone. The same clones who struggle with people like Black Zetsu, Chiyo, and Kimi. If AAA fought KCM Naruto he would have been quickly overwhelmed.


I'm pretty sure that I didn't say he fought the original, and I'm also sure I pointed out it was a clone in all of my posts itt, including the one your replying to right now. Address my actual points instead off reflecting on nonsense that doesn't need to be constantly said.

As for its performance against those three, we didn't see how anything transpired between the clone and Chiyo's and Kimmaro, and I'm pretty sure even the original isn't above being tripped. 



> Rasa also hard countered Gaara but lost quickly, albeit with Gaara having some advantage of his own to help.


He lost to someone he hard countered and quickly at that, but at least he didn't lose to a KCM clone.



> Rasa initially thought Gaara must have been Shukaku. It doesn’t sound like Shukaku is even as strong as WA Gaara.


Not sure how you concluded that. Gaara controlling as much sand as Shukaku doesn't imp!y Shukaku is weaker.



> Why are they so weak? Are they slower? Less durable? We saw the scale of Shukaku and Gamabunta hurling giant attacks and saw Two Tails destroyed a village.


We're flat out told that only perfect Jinchuriki can access Bijuumode and bring out the full power of their Bijuu, and we're also told that neither Gaara or Yugito are that. I'm gonna go with that instead equating what A3 did to what a 12 year old Naruto did.



> You can remove the scare quotes. Gamabunta really fought Shukaku and held him off long enough for Gaara to be disabled.


He fought an imitation Gaara made of sand that could be defeated by waking Gaara. 



> If the Hachibi’s statement about the number of Tails not determining the strength of the Bijuu than those feats are more impressive than AAA stalemating a Bijuu. If Hachibi is wrong, than those feats still aren’t significantly worse.


Rasa had a natural counter and neither Gaara or Yugito could bring out their Bijuu's full power.



> No, not even that, it wasn’t KCM Naruto, it was his clone.


His clone using KCM.



> I’m not the one who holds absurd views, like the Sannin getting solo’d by Killer Bee


Nah, you just think he can take down the Hachibi and beat KCM Naruto's clone in base. Perfectly sane compared to thinking that people who can't survive a nuke and have nothing that can put that nuke dropper down could actually lose.

I should just be reasonable like the other guy who called my views absurd and argue the sannin could even beat BM Naruto.



> This never happened. AAA fought KCM Naruto’s clone, who was shown struggling with Chiyo/Kimi/Zetsu.


Yeah I got that.



> If AAA fought the real Naruto he would be destroyed quickly.


I never claimed anything about how he'd perform against the original, because that isn't the minimum requirement for being portrayed as above Jiraiya. That said however, this claim is based on nothing.



> There’s no way to scale them as we don’t know how strong Kn4 is compared to Hachibi. We know that the 50% Kyuubi is roughly 4 times stronger than normal Bijuu, so it’s hard to say.


Notice how it was Bijuumode Naruto who was smacking those Bijuu around, and not a four tailed version 2. Safe to say a full Bijuu with twice as many tails is significantly stronger.



> But given that Jiraiya was in base and unlike AAA he actually won, Jiraiya’s feat is potentially better.


Winning and by such a slim margin does him no favours seeing as it's weaker than the full Hachibi, and I sincerely doubt Sage Mode was even an option in that situation.



> Right, because Jiraiya would defeat it.


Based on what? Because getting his guts spilled by a 4 tailed version two doesn't tell me much about how he'd go about outperforming a man who took on the full thing, and didn't even take a single scratch from it.



> Just as every Kage and Akatsuki seem to defeat Bijuu 1-8 when they encounter each other.


There's disregarding context to push a narrative, and then there's flat out lying. You're coming close to the latter. Each and every one of those Bijuu save for the roaming three tails, were sealed into a host that could not (or would not in the case of Bee) bring forth the actual Bijuu and/or it's full power. They dealt with Jinchuriki, not Bijuu.



> Given the trouble far weaker characters like Kimimaro/Chiyo/Zetsu gave him, Base Jiraiya would likely overwhelm a clone quickly while SM Jiraiya would certainly take out a KCM clone quickly.


Do we go around arguing that Hashirama can fuck over Adult Naruto because the far weaker Shin gave him trouble? An off panel fight and an instance of him being tripped, which would have also happened to the original as clones don't have their intelligence or awareness reduced, does not mean Jiraiya is going to actually beat him.

Then again what the fuck do I know. The man's base can take down Juubito and the entirety of Akatsuki. A mere KCM clone is fodder to that.

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## Blu-ray (Nov 15, 2018)

Turrin said:


> 1. We saw Kimmimaro and Bz give Kcm Naruto clones a hard time. You are vastly overrating them.


Nah, I'm just not relegating every last point of argumentation used against Jiraiya to the status of fodder. We didn't see Kimmaro do anything to make any conclusions as to how that encounter went down, and Black Zetsu did something he could replicate against the original.



> 2. The time when we saw Sandaime fight Hachibi on panel he had a huge amount of back up. Your just assuming that somehow it was a 1v1 that time. And knowledge always matters. Ether way Jiraiya has the portrayal of being able to go up against characters like Orochimaru, Pain, and Itachi which is better then drawing with Hachibi under unknown circumstances


Did you not read the post you replied to? Dodai said he fought it _*alone*_. Motoi also said that the beast rampaged several times. The instance you're referring to is not the same, as A3 already had his scar on that occasion and ended the fight with the Amber Purifying Pot.



> 3. 10k ninja isn’t concrete as ninja range from garbage fodder level where Sasuke can take 1k without even a single scratch despite being weaker then Jiraiya to an elite unit like the Kinkaku force. Both taking down a country / village, and taking on 10k are suppose to be similar hype indicating that these ninja are so strong numbers are nearly meaningless.


True. But that's still _one eighth _the manpower of the entire Allied Shinobi nations, and _ten times greater_ than the 1000 Sasuke faced, and this being the 3rd great Shinobi war, would've been a major villages fighting force, not run of the mill Otogakure fodder.

I also pointed out why taking on a nation is too vague to be compared to it. There are countries like the land of waves that don't even have hidden villages, and they're common despite their irrelevancy. Orochimaru who could destroy a nation according to you, took on a village yet lost with the backing of two.



> 4. Your talking about Gai, using 8th gate? That really doesn’t change the sentiment of the statement that a sage is so far above the level of the average leaf Jonin that even on mass they can’t do anything to assist him.


I'm not talking about 8th gate guy, because he didn't provide support to anyone. I'm talking about Gai when he held his own as support against Obito, his Bijuu, and even fucking Madara of all people while winded. It wasn't some general statement. He was told to his face that he'd be in the way against Pain. Clearly, that was bullshit.



> 5.Being one of like 13 other clones certainly lowers that clones level because Narutos chakra is split between them and it only requiring one hit to take down the clone. That’s why we see the clones requiring back up against any high level enemy even Kimi and BZ


I know that. I wasn't saying the clone was on par with the original, only that it wasn't fodder just because it was a clone.


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## Turrin (Nov 15, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> Nah, I'm just not relegating every last point of argumentation used against Jiraiya to the status of fodder. We didn't see Kimmaro do anything to make any conclusions as to how that encounter went down, and Black Zetsu did something he could replicate against the original.
> 
> 
> Did you not read the post you replied to? Dodai said he fought it _*alone*_. Motoi also said that the beast rampaged several times. The instance you're referring to is not the same, as A3 already had his scar on that occasion and ended the fight with the Amber Purifying Pot.
> ...



1. We don’t need to know specifics. We know Kimi and Bz took on the clones for a significant period of time. No way that’s happening if the clones were anywhere near as strong as your saying they are. Basically if Kimi can stall out a clone I have no doubt Jiraiya can

2.  I missed that to be honest but even still the fact that Hachibi rampaged frequently shows that Sandaime went in with full knowledge. To me drawing with one of the stronger Bijuu going in with full knowledge and experience, isn’t beyond rivaling Orochimaru, Itachi, and Pain

3. Yeah and a country is bigger then a village so I just don’t find that more impressive even if the fodder was of a slightly higher quality. And characters like the Sannin were clearly considered threats to hidden villages anyway so yeah, don’t see this as anything abnormal for a Shannon.

4. Orochimaru took on the strongest of the hidden villages with the strongest kage. And barely lost. That’s a lot different then taking on 10k fodder and loosing, remember sandaime also lost infacr I would take orochimarus feat of essentially winning against the strongest kage over sandaimes feat any day portrayal wise. 

5. Different enemies Gai would be useless against Pain because he has no way to deal with ST

6. It’s not fodder but it’s not on a higher level then Jiraiya or ms Sasuke

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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 15, 2018)

Blu-ray said:


> I'm pretty sure that I didn't say he fought the original, and I'm also sure I pointed out it was a clone in all of my posts itt, including the one your replying to right now.



You’ll mention that he’s fighting a clone once in the post and then proceed to claim that AAA fought “KCM Naruto” five or six times.

That’s not remotely honest.



> Address my actual points instead off reflecting on nonsense that doesn't need to be constantly said.



Until you actually refer to KCM Naruto’s clones as his clones instead of KCM Naruto I’m not going to stop, because your entire post is built around the falsehoods of equating KCM Naruto’s Clone with Naruto and the Hachibi with the Kyuubi.



> As for its performance against those three, we didn't see how anything transpired between the clone and Chiyo's and Kimmaro, and I'm pretty sure even the original isn't above being tripped.



We know they fought for an extended period of time and were not sealed. This is already puts their performance seemingly ahead of AAA.



> Not sure how you concluded that. Gaara controlling as much sand as Shukaku doesn't imp!y Shukaku is weaker.



Because Gaara won and Shukaku lost when they fought with the same fighting style disadvantage.



> We're flat out told that only perfect Jinchuriki can access Bijuumode and bring out the full power of their Bijuu, and we're also told that neither Gaara or Yugito are that. I'm gonna go with that instead equating what A3 did to what a 12 year old Naruto did



We aren’t comparing them to a perfect Jinchuriki. We’re comparing them to the rampaging Hachibi.



> He fought an imitation Gaara made of sand that could be defeated by waking Gaara.



He fought a full sized Bijuu that had high level regeneration and spammed attacks the size of Gamabunta. That’s fighting a Bijuu. It might not be a perfect Jin, but neither was the Hachibi when A3fought it.



> His clone using KCM.



But it’s just a clone. The real Naruto can make 12 of them, join himself, and back them up with an army of summons. AAA lost to less than a 13th of KCM Naruto’s strength.



> Nah, you just think he can take down the Hachibi and beat KCM Naruto's clone in base. Perfectly sane compared to thinking that people who can't survive a nuke and have nothing that can put that nuke dropper down could actually lose.



Jiraiya has fought an opponent with nukes before and won, Jiraiya can immobilize it with Frog Song, and Jiraiya has summons capable of pinning down the 100% Kyuubi, who is comparable to all the other Bijuu combined.



> I never claimed anything about how he'd perform against the original, because that isn't the minimum requirement for being portrayed as above Jiraiya. That said however, this claim is based on nothing.



It’s not based on nothing. It’s based on one clone almost immediately knocking A3 on his ass and arguably giving him a serious injury. With all of his clones Naruto kills or disables AAA by hitting him with several FRS.

*AAA was given injuries that would have likely been fatal if he was alive by Temari.* He is not enduring repeated hits by KCM Naruto’s Clone/Rasenshuriken barrage.



> Notice how it was Bijuumode Naruto who was smacking those Bijuu around, and not a four tailed version 2. Safe to say a full Bijuu with twice as many tails is significantly stronger.



That’s not clear. Kn4 has four tails while Shukaku only has one, but I’m doubting you consider Kn4stronger. The 50% Kyuubi has the same number of tails as the 100% Kyuubi while being weaker. The Kyuubi has fewer tails than the combined number of tails of the Bijuu it dominated. 50% Kn4 could very well comparable to the Hachibi without a host.



> Winning and by such a slim margin does him no favours seeing as it's weaker than the full Hachibi, and I sincerely doubt Sage Mode was even an option in that situation.



We don’t know if it was an option or not, but whether or not Sage Mode was an option in a highly specific situation doesn’t make Jiraiya less powerful or change the fact that Jiraiya was nowhere near his full strength in that fight.



> Based on what? Because getting his guts spilled by a 4 tailed version two doesn't tell me much about how he'd go about outperforming a man who took on the full thing, and didn't even take a single scratch from it.



AAA didn’t take on the full thing. He fought a different Bijuu that is fodder to the full 50% Kyuubi,



> and didn't even take a single scratch from it.



He was physically scarred for life from the fight which ended in a stalemate.




> There's disregarding context to push a narrative, and then there's flat out lying. You're coming close to the latter. Each and every one of those Bijuu save for the roaming three tails, were sealed into a host that could not (or would not in the case of Bee) bring forth the actual Bijuu and/or it's full power. They dealt with Jinchuriki, not Bijuu.



Biju cooperative Bijuu with hosts are stronger than wild Bijuu, and AAA fought one without a host. We saw Yugito release the two tails and neither Hidan or Kakuzu thought it was a big deal. You don’t need to be a perfect Jinchuriki to release your Bijuu for a rampage, as we saw Yugito release the two tails and Naruto was going to release the Kyuubi against Pein. We don’t know whether Biju 4-7 released their Bijuu and to what degree, or if fighting full wild Bijuu is even more difficult than fighting the actual Jin fueled by partial transformations.

The actual narrative in the series is that AAA was shamed by failing to solo the Hachibi, while Rasa stopped Shukaku, and all of the other Bijuu and Jins were hunted down by small units of Akatsuki who were never defeated by the Jin besides Naruto. The idea of the Bijuu being indestructible High Kage is fanon.



> Do we go around arguing that Hashirama can fuck over Adult Naruto because the far weaker Shin gave him trouble?



Not relevant. KCM Naruto’s benchmark was Minato. Minato and KCM Naruto have nowhere near the implied gap that exists between Naruto and Hashirama, who are separated by at least three or four tiers by the end of the war.

Rather you have this backwards. Naruto’s clones were shown consistently struggling with ETs besides AAA, who was outperformed by virtually every other character any KCM clone fought.



> An off panel fight and an instance of him being tripped, which would have also happened to the original as clones don't have their intelligence or awareness reduced, does not mean Jiraiya is going to actually beat him.



No, it wouldn’t happen. Naruto would completely overwhelm him with clones and summons and destroy these opponents.


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 15, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya has summons that can put up a good fight against Bijuu solo. People like Rasa, Kakazu/Hidan, and Deidara have wins over Bijuu. The 50% Kyuubi can handle four by itself without much trouble.
> 
> I don’t think that stalemating a wild Bijuu is that big of a feat or that the wild Bijuu are much if any stronger than 50% Kn4. Kn4 has closely matched fights with Base Jiraiya and armless Base Orochimaru, which is better than losing to Rasa or losing to Hidan/Kakuzu.
> 
> If the Hachibi is stronger than thenBijuu with less tails then the wild Hachibi might be as strong as Kn6, but overall nothing places Bijuu 1-8 at some kind of obscene level. The general depiction in the series is that Kage level Ninja almost always beat Bijuu below the Kyuubi.


I was gonna reply to this...Frankly...For lack of a better word right now...utter fucking mess of a post..


Blu-ray said:


> You've got a genuine knack for downplay. I didn't think anyone else could so masterfully make taking on a Bijuu and walling KCM Naruto seem so utterly unimpressive. It's like the battledome equivalent of a parent with overly high expectations, where a report card with an A minus means you didn't try hard enough.
> 
> But sorry lad, that just won't cut it. A3 wasn't Gyuki's natural counter like Rasa was to Shukaku. He wasn't fighting a weak imitation like Gaara's and Yugito's transformations, and summons being able to "fight" Bijuu, is not even remotely comparable to actually being able to _stalemate_ one.
> 
> ...


But Blu pretty much buried that shit

So ill just take the shit that REALLY stuck out to me


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Jiraiya has summons that can put up a good fight against Bijuu solo


No

No he doesnt

Bunta matched up against a SAND CONSTRUCT that was being CONTROLLED by THE WEAKEST BIJU that had ITS STRONGEST TECHNIQUE RESTRICTED and he outright fucking stated he would be lucky to survive  FEW OF ITS HITS.

The Shukaku we saw in part 1 wasnt full shukaku... as the damn construct doesnt even go back inside Gaaras body...Ya know...Like every other Biju does?

"Jiriaya has summons that can fight Biju"

...Only by ignoring ALL the context can you make that statement.

Must be why the Gama TRIO...Let alone fucking ONE OF THEM, couldnt take Cerberus down

Cerberus Biju + level confirmed? 


Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I don’t think that stalemating a wild Bijuu is that big of a feat or that the wild Bijuu are much if any stronger than 50% Kn4.


...

You dont think the full power of the 8 tailed Biju is more impressive than a piss poor fraction of Yang Kuramas chakra thats actively being suppressed by the Eight Signed Seal AND the Shodais necklace?

So what? Is part 1 Sasukes feat of dicking down KN1 equivalent to him beating full Kokuo (5 tails) now 

Dude...


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## Azula (Nov 15, 2018)

Absolutely useless mentioning that A3 fought Gyuki as a hype argument for A3.

That fight is remarkable only because A3 is fighting using nothing but nin-taijutsu, but then again he and A4 have no other jutsus and that is what their character is based on. *It's A3's unique fighting style that's being hyped not the feat of trolling a Bijuu because that's not unique.*

Trolling a Bijuu is something expected of Kages and even mid-tier Akatsuki goons, especially when TBB doesn't really come into play. Their jutsus are powerful enough for that and every Kage has some unique jutsus.

-Deidara can put 3 tails on it's back.
-Rasa the great jobber (to a Sannin no less) can put a stop to Shukaku's rampage.

FCD can do the same trolling to Gyuki as it has already trolled much much stronger Bijuu but some posters would rather forget it happened.

Reactions: Like 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 15, 2018)

Turrin said:


> 1. We saw Kimmimaro and Bz give Kcm Naruto clones a hard time. You are vastly overrating them.


We didnt see them do shit...The fights were off panel

And also...Even IF you took that shit seriously, thatd be a low end, friend

Unless you think Kimimaro is Raikage level 

Cuz we VERY CLEARLY saw the level that Narutos KCM clones can operate at in PEAK condition. And it wasnt something fucking Part 1 Gaara could draw with I can tell you that.

One of em also kinda slapped Mu...The Tsuchikage whom Tsunade, Jmans PEER, outright says she couldnt fight.

Dude the downplay in this thread is inane


Turrin said:


> 2. The time when we saw Sandaime fight Hachibi on panel he had a huge amount of back up


No he didnt


Turrin said:


> Your just assuming that somehow it was a 1v1 that time


It was a 1v1 



Im sorry...I just cant with these kids in here genuinely trying to argue that "B...but facing a Biju isnt impressive mister!" just cuz they know full goddamn well Jiraiya cant fucking come close to doing it 

Im outta here...Threads straight up disgusting


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 15, 2018)

Azula said:


> Absolutely useless mentioning that A3 fought Gyuki as a hype argument for A3.


Bruh 


Azula said:


> It's A3's unique fighting style that's being hyped not the feat of trolling a Bijuu because that's not unique.





Azula said:


> Trolling a Bijuu is something expected of Kages


No it fucking isnt 

Mei or Tsunade or Hiruzen or Gaara or Tobirama, several others including EVEN Minato cant do shit to a Biju to outright defeat it...And NONE of these kids can TRADE with a Biju...Like A3 is specified to have done.

Not without harsh consequences...minato is BY FAR the best of the bunch and he couldnt do shit to Kurama without KILLING HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS.

The fact there are actually people in here trying to argue that Biju level feats and hype arent impressive 

What the fuck is the NBD on tonight man


Azula said:


> mid-tier Akatsuki goons


The akatsuki fought JINCHURIKI without control over their beasts up until Killer Bee...Who by the way was restricted from using his full power when he faced Kisame

Again man...Miss me with this "Biju level aint shit" nonsense


Azula said:


> -Deidara can put 3 tails on it's back.


Deidara is a MASSIVE Kage level outlier who actually has raw destructive power above that of most HIGH TIERS ffs.

Hardly applicable to Jiraiya 

Even LESS applicable to THE ENTIRE KAGE BRACKET


Azula said:


> -Rasa the great jobber (to a Sannin no less) can put a stop to Shukaku's rampage.


No he can put a stop to Shukakus rampage when Shukaku is hella nerfed by being nothing but a sand construct that it takes control of

Just went over that actually

He also has the benefit of being the things perfect counter


Azula said:


> FCD can do the same trolling to Gyuki as it has already trolled much much stronger Bijuu but some posters would rather forget it happened.


Azula has the worst memory I swear 

"FCD can troll Gyuki cuz it trolled Kurama"





Oh wait...


WorldsStrongest said:


> ...
> 
> So please, be more dishonest and tell my why FCD is so useful without Minato here to facilitate it


Thread just went from "trash" to "flaming bag of dog shit" real quick


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## Azula (Nov 16, 2018)

The very page it is written there that "_...only person to take on a Bijuu unarmored and unarmed..._" *Not that *"_...only person that can take on a Bijuu..._"

Clearly referring to the *manner of fighting Bijuu* not the feat of fighting a Bijuu itself.

Learn to read or comprehend.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Deidara is a MASSIVE Kage level outlier who actually has raw destructive power



Raw Power is not only thing that works in this manga.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Mei or Tsunade or Hiruzen or Gaara or Tobirama, several others including EVEN Minato cant do shit to a Biju to outright defeat it..





WorldsStrongest said:


> And NONE of these kids can TRADE with a Biju...



Gaara would do the same to Shukaku as Rasa, they were matched in War Arc.

And Tsunade would spend the time punching out any Bijuu.

Tobirama would blow up any Bijuu using Gojou Kibaku Fuda and that would deal decent damage to the Bijuu seeing as it destroyed Hashirama's gates, and he would do it again and again as his Edo Tensei summon reforms
And he would also not take any damage himself as he can dodge most attacks by Hirashin.

If Mei who is there more for fanservice and marriage jokes and old Hiruzen are your only arguments then...  BTW old Hiruzen threw Kurama out of Konoha so I guess you don't even have an argument there.



WorldsStrongest said:


> The akatsuki fought JINCHURIKI without control over their beasts up until Killer Bee...



Kakuzu took a hit from a fully transformed Yugito. Yugito would be below Bee since she couldn't use TBB.

Again it seems most Kage levels can take care of Bijuu physically.



WorldsStrongest said:


> he couldnt do shit to Kurama without KILLING HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS



A3 couldn't do shit to Gykui either if you are referring to sealing, he failed to seal it by himself, your memory seems selective.

Minato on the other casually trashed TBB and made Kurama eat dirt by slamming onto him onto the ground.

*Minato also doesn't need to kill himself to seal Bijuu, that is only needed for RDS, splitting it into two since Naruto's newborn body is too small to handle full Kurama*. Hakke Fuin the other sealing jutsu that actually seals it into JInchuriki or any other object doesn't need life sacrifice. Nobody was sacrificed when full Kurama was sealed into kid Kushina or adult Mito.

Really get your manga facts straight before act like a smartass, you post so many wrong things.



WorldsStrongest said:


> No he can put a stop to Shukakus rampage when Shukaku is hella nerfed by being nothing but a sand construct



"Sand construct"  That's his actual body. He has come out of the seal.

And A3 merely fought with a Gyuki that didn't get around to using TBB until... it passed out and didn't use it.

So A3's feat is nothing better than Rasa.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Guess no one told Azula that if it wasnt for Minatos last second intervention with top level FTG hax that Buntas ass was grass huh?



There is no FTG tag hanging above Kurama's head in the middle of the air. If it is point it out to us. He shunshin'ed from the Hokage mountain, only because he was late and chose ti arrive there. Both factors not relevant in a neutral fight.

 and , so you shouldn't have a problem.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Guess no one ALSO told Azula that Bunta himself outright states he cant do shit to a Biju for longer than a few seconds?



*What is it with you adding words to characters mouth?* Gamabunta doesn't say he can only hold Kurama for few seconds.

Minato wanted to get rid of TBB and that's why he took it away quickly. There is even a close up with Hiruzen and TBB. The TBB was about to explode and therefore it was necessary to get rid of it quickly.

Kurama is also a dozen times stronger than Gyuki so clearly Gamabunta will have a very easy time anyway.

Interesting that you will be the first to regurgitate that full Kurama is stronger than other bijuus in other threads but are just glossing over in this thread. Could it be that you have some agenda?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Nov 16, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> We didnt see them do shit...The fights were off panel
> 
> And also...Even IF you took that shit seriously, thatd be a low end, friend
> 
> ...



Edo Kimi was healthy so he was likely stronger then when he faced garaa. He also had some back up too. But yeah the kcm clones are overrated. 

Against Mu kcm clone had back up, knowledge, and mu like every edo was jobbing. And he still didn’t defeat Mu.

Against Sandaime he had backup of dodai and huge portion of the long range division, plus knowledge, and again Sandaime jobbing. 

In both cases it was clear that the clone stood no chance alone and would have lost several times without heavy aid from circumstances.


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## goombanthime (Nov 16, 2018)

Azula said:


> Absolutely useless mentioning that A3 fought Gyuki as a hype argument for A3.
> 
> That fight is remarkable only because A3 is fighting using nothing but nin-taijutsu, but then again he and A4 have no other jutsus and that is what their character is based on. *It's A3's unique fighting style that's being hyped not the feat of trolling a Bijuu because that's not unique.*
> 
> ...


The difference is that Rasa and Deidara can't dodge and tank a FRS from KCM Naruto. Also keep ignoring how KCM Naruto faired against the 4-tail (barely ablate keep his mount or hand open) and how Madara's PS and bijuu were paralleled.

I know that the WA is pretty bad, but if you want to discuss character from it, I suggest you go past the pain arc


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## Azula (Nov 16, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> The difference is that Rasa and Deidara can't dodge and tank a FRS from KCM Naruto



They will give trouble to KCM Naruto clone in other ways like grabbing him with gold dust or nuking him or stopping FRS with gold dust/bombs. Not a portrayal argument, just his unique abilities.

This doesn't put A3 above others, A3 can't do what they can.


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## goombanthime (Nov 16, 2018)

Azula said:


> They will give trouble to KCM Naruto clone in other ways like grabbing him with gold dust or nuking him or stopping FRS with gold dust/bombs. Not a portrayal argument, just his unique abilities.
> 
> This doesn't put A3 above others, A3 can't do what they can.


A3 is portrayed as much faster(almost a blitz comparing how he reacted to FRS compared to the human path, who could block a punch from Jman), stronger(one shot territory), more durable(like being able to easily tank an attack who's much above anything Jman has). 

I don't know for you, but that to me it seems he has better portayl than Jman


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 16, 2018)

About even in some ways, both were portrayed as exceptional shinobi that were legendary.

A3 being able to take on a Tailed Beast is a good feat especially because the Tailed Beast were affected by the same power inflation as everyone else it seems. 

Jiraiya pushing pain to high diff is also an exceptional feat for reasons discussed ad nauseam.

I think of them both as low end High Kage


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2018)

Azula said:


> Absolutely useless mentioning that A3 fought Gyuki as a hype argument for A3.
> 
> That fight is remarkable only because A3 is fighting using nothing but nin-taijutsu, but then again he and A4 have no other jutsus and that is what their character is based on. *It's A3's unique fighting style that's being hyped not the feat of trolling a Bijuu because that's not unique.*
> 
> ...



1. A3 fighting a Bijuu _*is *_hype. I know it is difficult when A3 supporters can use an actual hype as opposed to Jiraiya supporters who rely on misinterpreted panels.

2. The fact he fought and stalemated a full Bijuu is still *massive*. Are you downplaying this because Jiraiya almost died to a 4 tailed Naruto?

3. Trolling Bijuu *is not something you generally expect from Kage*. Minato _died _to take the 9 tails. Tobirama never fought a Bijuu and Hiruzen had backup but still needed saving in the end. Hashirama had special abilities to handle it. Iwa's first 3 Kage had literal nuke jutsu. 

3. Deidara had a Kekkei Genkai and a Kinjutsu... not some average ability. 

4. Rasa canonically had a counter to Shukaku.

"FCD can do the same trolling to Gyuuki"... because you really think that finishes Gyuuki off. It didn't even finish off Kurama. 

At least try to pretend you're not bias.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> About even in some ways, both were portrayed as exceptional shinobi that were legendary.
> 
> A3 being able to take on a Tailed Beast is a good feat especially because the Tailed Beast were affected by the same power inflation as everyone else it seems.
> 
> ...



What do you consider to be high diff. You mean that time Pain used all his powers, including Deva's, to fight Jiraiya at full force?


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 18, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Because they are better feats. How did his 30% Clone overpower Guy in close quarters combat when he got scratched by Asuma in Shippuden? Are you telling me Asuma is superior to Guy in close quarters?
> 
> How didn't Samehada absorb the Chakra from his Chakra Blade?


 The only reason he got scratched by Asuma is because he couldn't see the extension of chakra on Asuma's blades. That's even noted to be one of the advantages of the Flying Swallow (Asuma's jutsu) in DB2. It has nothing to do with Asuma being superior to Guy in close quarters, he simply had an advantage that Guy didn't have against Kisame. The blade wasn't even close to Samehada when Asuma used it to scratch Kisame's face either. But we know Samehada could still absorb chakra back then, as he did it against Naruto. Lemme show you a few scans of Kisame's abilities in Part 1:
    So as you can see Kisame even in Part 1 still had his monstrous strength, Water Release ninjutsu, and Samehada which could still absorb chakra. So there isn't much evidence that Kisame's portrayal and general standing in the series changed from Part 1 to Part 2, he had the exact same abilities. The only thing you could maybe argue is that Kishimoto changed his mind about was Kisame having tailed beast level chakra reserves because he didn't seem to have thought out the whole tailed beast and jinchuriki thing back in Part 1. But even then that doesn't change much, as he apparently had trouble off-panel against characters like Roshi and only beat a heavily restricted Killer B due to being the perfect counter. Not to mention he still lost to Guy twice, like what was implied to happen back in Part 1. 


> I concede, although I still do see Genjutsu being a crucial factor in this fight.


 We agree here then.


> Itachi knew Nagato possessed the Rinnegan, and it is implied he knew of the immense power of the Rinnegan as well because he states they could do anything with the power of Nagato's Rinnegan and his Mangekyou Sharingan. Obito would be included because Itachi knew about him, and he still counts as back up.


 Yeah, but how do we know Itachi didn't learn more about it due to talking to Nagato after they were both reincarnated? No one in the Akatsuki seemed to know Pain's true identity nor the extent of his power, so I don't see why or how Itachi would know. As for Obito, if Obito was included that'd mean he'd have to fight alongside other Akatsuki against Jiraiya, and when that happens they'd see how powerful Obito was and that'd blow his cover. Which is why he never did much and acted a fool as "Tobi" when with Deidara.


> If Itachi was including the Gates when he was talking about Guy, then I agree because it is confirmed by later feats. However, base Guy being a threat to Kisame is a joke.


 He was obviously referencing the Gates, we see this later on when Gated Guy decimates Kisame multiple times.


> I don't remember Itachi acknowledging Kakashi of being much.


       Itachi praised Kakashi by warning Kisame about him, telling him if he fought Kakashi he would suffer injuries. As well as acknowledging his perception and analytical ability, and his ability to master the Sharingan.


> I do not accept what he said about Jiraiya because I find it laughably false. You are telling me Jiraiya can casually one-shot Mid Kage level fighters in base?


 Statements like Itachi's (as well as others) is why I think it's best to view things from an out-of-universe perspective when it comes to them. What sense does it make for Kishimoto to have Itachi tell the truth about Kakashi and Guy's strength, but not Jiraiya's? Why purposely mislead his readers for no reason, and specifically only about Jiraiya? You can say "Oh well Itachi might've been lying" but that cannot be proven, nor does it make any sense for him to lie about Jiraiya but not the others. Kisame believed that Itachi could take on Jiraiya, meaning he definitely could've taken on Guy and Kakashi. Yet, when he told them to retreat against Guy and the incoming reinforcements Kisame didn't get suspicious, even though he knew Itachi could beat them. So even if Itachi said "Oh well I can defeat Jiraiya, but right now I think it's best we wait" Kisame wouldn't have gotten suspicious then either.

Ultimately, I think at the time that statement was made Kishimoto truly did intend for it to mean Jiraiya = Itachi, and that Kisame and the backup were too weak to make a difference. The fact that he even had Itachi and Kisame run away from him and use Amaterasu to survive one of base Jiraiya's jutsu should reinforce that. However, now that he's developed all of the other Akatsuki members and we see how strong they are it's impossible to envision Jiraiya even stalemating Itachi and Kisame, let alone any other members joining in the fray. So if anything, the whole "Backup wouldn't change the outcome" thing was probably retconned, but the main point of that statement anyway was to indicate Jiraiya = Itachi not Jiraiya > a bunch of Akatsuki members based on what Itachi said. Then in Part 2 we see how strong Jiraiya and Itachi really are, and as I've said before, they were given power-ups that were portrayed as equal in their successors case, and many parallels were made between them in the manga at around the same time. So even if Kishimoto changed his mind about the whole Jiraiya beating Itachi with backup thing, there's nothing that indicates he changed his mind about Jiraiya = Itachi.


> That does not prove anything about Sage Mode though.
> 
> For all we know, his Sage Mode design could be the one which is inspired by that drawing, and not the other way around.


 So you're saying that Kishimoto randomly drew that without any plans of Sage Mode, and then came up with Sage Mode later and used that drawing for it? That seems like a pretty big stretch to me to be honest.


> I am referring to Naruto and Nagato.
> 
> Minato knew about Sage Mode because he actually learned it.


 I still don't see how Naruto and Nagato not knowing about it is an indicator of anything significant like you're suggesting.


> Itachi also knew Kabuto was a Sage, but he did not run away like a coward while claiming he and the rest of the Akatsuki can't hope to accomplish anything.


 Edo Itachi is stronger than living Itachi, and Edo Itachi was backed up by EMS Sasuke. So he had no reason to worry that much, and even then he still showed clear concern over SM Kabuto's power and needed Sasuke's help to overcome it. But SM Kabuto is also a much stronger Sage than Jiraiya is, so the situations can't really be compared. But my main point is, Itachi showed concern over SM, and SM showed it can counter MS users in that fight, and SM Jiraiya possesses the same counters to MS users that SM Kabuto has.


> What? Please tell me why it would be stated that Sasuke's visual prowess surpassed Itachi after he awakened Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan then instead of Mangekyou Sharingan?


 
The statement in DB4 wasn't even "Now that Sasuke has the EMS, he has finally surpassed Itachi in dojutsu and ninjutsu" it just mentioned his surpasses Itachi's with the EMS: It doesn't mean it couldn't have before. The fact the manga states that his regular Sharingan is stronger, and then DB3 states his eyes boast the same power as Itachi's, and DB4 says his MS has the "Straight Tomoe" that Itachi's lacks should make it clear that Sasuke's MS is better. 


> The parallel argument does not even work. How does them bestowing powers to people mean anything about how powerful they are? Or are you telling me Obito and Kabuto are also equal?


This is completely different, Hagoromo is the one who actually gave them their powers, not Obito and Kabuto. They also didn't inherit anything from Obito and Kabuto whatsoever, so this doesn't work. It's the fact that they inherited the same powers Jiraiya and Itachi had, and were stated to be equal, but I don't think I can convince you about Jiraiya's SM though so I know you won't agree with this.


> Then the only one worth mentioning is Amaterasu, and it is common knowledge that Amaterasu takes a while to fire.


 Alright, I'll concede here on that.


> I am sorry if it sounded like I said Jiraiya would never use Sage Mode, but my point was he only used Sage Mode against Pain because he had the Rinnegan. So the chances of him immediately using it against the guy who is his "equal" (while Itachi has back up and while Jiraiya has to protect 2 kids) right off the bat aren't huge. That is why it is a big factor.
> 
> The difference between immediately using Sage Mode and immediately using the Mangekyou Sharingan is that one of them can be accomplished in one page while the other takes an entire chapter. Not to mention, base Jiraiya has already pushed Itachi into using the Mangekyou Sharingan with a single technique according to you, so there is that.


 I don't think Jiraiya would immediately use it anyway, he would only use it as a last resort when he sees he needs to use it. He didn't have a need to use it when he faced Itachi and Kisame then, so there was no reason for him too. Also it's true that Itachi can bring out the Mangekyo faster than Jiraiya can bring out SM, but he has ways to stall until he can get into SM.


> There is quite a big difference between saying Jiraiya can defeat Pain with knowledge and saying he can defeat a crippled and emaciated Nagato (you also claimed this feat falls under the category of feats Jiraiya has accomplished that are superior to the Third Raikage's)


 I should've clarified then, but regardless, doing the latter is still impressive because it was acknowledged as such in the manga itself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 18, 2018)

On one hand, team Jiraiya rely on misinterpreted claims and omit anything canonical which exposes their points. On the other hand, team Raikage rely on what the material tells us without needing to leave anything out or misinterpret anything.

It is obvious that the Raikage arguments hold more weight for that reason.


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## Azula (Nov 18, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya almost died to a 4 tailed Naruto?



It has been pointed out hundreds of times the circumstances under which this occurred and Jiraiya's relationship to Naruto. Take you own advice:



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> rely on misinterpreted claims



Using your own special logic, A3 died to a bunch of fodders so he is still below Jiraiya.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tobirama never fought a Bijuu



That's irrelevant because we know what Gojouu Kibaku fuda and Hirashin can do. Gojouu broke Sage Mokuton Gates and Hirashin has been used on Bijuus several times by Minato and Tobirama in War Arc.

This just seems like you are trying to avoid discussion.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hiruzen had backup



Which one of the fodders helped Hiruzen push out Kurama, point it out to us and tell us what jutsu they used. They must be the strongest fodders ever to appear in manga if they can troll Kurama like this.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato _died _to take the 9 tails



Minato died to use RDS to split Kurama into two and seal one half into Naruto. How is this relevant to Battledome scenarios.

Minato doesn't die when using S/T barrier, FCD or any other Uzumaki techniques like Hakke Fuin to seal Kurama or Barrier jutsus to contain Kurama.

Complete idiocy from you. Do you know that RDS and Hakke Fuin are two separate jutsus with specific purposes?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Iwa's first 3 Kage had literal nuke jutsu.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Deidara had a Kekkei Genkai and a Kinjutsu... not some average ability





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Rasa canonically had a counter to Shukaku.



So? Every Kage has unique jutsu, this is not new.

You claim Kage trolling Bijuu is not common then go on to list 4 Kages who can troll Bijuus. Complete lack of self-awareness.

The same goes for A3. His unique skills will run into trouble when they face their own weakness.

A3's Raiton armour has a weakness to Fuuton element and Shukaku's forest destroying multiple Wind Bullets will strip off his RCM so A3 can't easily repeat his feat of Gyuki against Shukaku.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The fact he fought and stalemated a full Bijuu is still *massive*.



Deidara put a complete stop to 3 tails without a single scrtach on him and Rasa put a stop to Shukaku completely without a sweat.
But somehow A3 collapsing and sustaining an injury is still a better feat and puts him above others?

The only thing this hypes is how strong he is physically and stamin wise. His actual feat regarding to fighting Bijuu is nothing special.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> "FCD can do the same trolling to Gyuuki"... because you really think that finishes Gyuuki off.



A3 can't finish off Gyuki so why are you pointing this out as if it's a positive for A3.

Using FCD to put a stop to Gyuki and restraining without injury would be better feat than getting injured and collapsing out of consciousness and still only stalemating.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> At least try to pretend you're not bias.





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> On one hand, team Jiraiya rely on misinterpreted claims and omit anything canonical which exposes their points. On the other hand, team Raikage rely on what the material tells us without needing to leave anything out or misinterpret anything.



I think at some point in the past you suffered a severe traumatic experience regarding Jiraiya and probably WorldsStrongest too and are still suffering it's effects till now. And so you enter every thread with a conspiracy mindset and think everyone is motivated by bias but it's just you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Nov 18, 2018)

Azula said:


> severe traumatic experience regarding Jiraiya



Obviously, it's because Manga says that Jiraiya can defeat Pain and @Munboy Dracule O'Brian refuses to accept it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Muah (Nov 18, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?


yes


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## Muah (Nov 18, 2018)

i think it assumed the black guys were the strongest afterthe senju and Uchiha. Aeing as they were the main rivals of konoha.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 18, 2018)

Azula said:


> It has been pointed out hundreds of times the circumstances under which this occurred and Jiraiya's relationship to Naruto. Take you own advice:
> 
> Using your own special logic, A3 died to a bunch of fodders so he is still below Jiraiya.



This is the most poorly structured reply I have ever seen. However, I'll bite. 

Ohhhh, you mean the circumstances you and a couple of other posters made up! Let me guess, Tobirama is below Jiraiya because he lost to the Kinkaku squad, right? 



> That's irrelevant because we know what Gojouu Kibaku fuda and Hirashin can do. Gojouu broke Sage Mokuton Gates and Hirashin has been used on Bijuus several times by Minato and Tobirama in War Arc.
> 
> This just seems like you are trying to avoid discussion.



You're just being intellectually dishonest. You tried to diminish the feat of A3 taking a full Bijuu while Jiraiya couldn't handle a 4 tailed Naruto. Then you have forgotten that Hiraishin with Minato led to Minato's death in the end with Minato's best feats coming from him being an Edo Tensei Jinchuriki. Also you failed to understand the point because Minato and Tobirama using Hiraishin on a Bijuu doesn't mean they could troll it outright defeat Bijuu. 

Being a Kage doesn't mean you can automatically troll Bijuu otherwise we'd see Tsunade and Mei smacking down some Bijuu.



> Which one of the fodders helped Hiruzen push out Kurama, point it out to us and tell us what jutsu they used. They must be the strongest fodders ever to appear in manga if they can troll Kurama like this.



So this Kage didn't just troll a Bijuu, right? 



> Minato died to use RDS to split Kurama into two and seal one half into Naruto. How is this relevant to Battledome scenarios.
> 
> Minato doesn't die when using S/T barrier, FCD or any other Uzumaki techniques like Hakke Fuin to seal Kurama or Barrier jutsus to contain Kurama.
> 
> Complete idiocy from you. Do you know that RDS and Hakke Fuin are two separate jutsus with specific purposes?



I thought Minato should casually be able to troll the Bijuu since he was a Kage. It almost sounds like "Kage can troll Bijuu" was something you pilled out of your ass. 




> So? Every Kage has unique jutsu, this is not new.
> 
> You claim Kage trolling Bijuu is not common then go on to list 4 Kages who can troll Bijuus. Complete lack of self-awareness.
> 
> The same goes for A3. His unique skills will run into trouble when they face their own weakness.



>Claims Kage can troll Bijuu
>Ignores her own examples of that not being the case

Are you for real? 



> A3's Raiton armour has a weakness to Fuuton element and Shukaku's forest destroying multiple Wind Bullets will strip off his RCM so A3 can't easily repeat his feat of Gyuki against Shukaku.



That's nice, but he still took a full Bijuu and Jiraiya didn't. To do this he had to be fast enough to fight the Bijuu. You think every non-Jiraiya character will stand there and take a Wind Bullet shower?



> Deidara put a complete stop to 3 tails without a single scrtach on him and Rasa put a stop to Shukaku completely without a sweat.
> But somehow A3 collapsing and sustaining an injury is still a better feat and puts him above others?
> 
> The only thing this hypes is how strong he is physically and stamin wise. His actual feat regarding to fighting Bijuu is nothing special.



You have forgotten how powerful Gyuuki is, obviously. Also, @WorldsStrongest  you need to see this. This gal claims fighting a Bijuu is nothing special yet ignores what this point means for Jiraiya who almost died to a Bijuu not using its full power. 



> A3 can't finish off Gyuki so why are you pointing this out as if it's a positive for A3.
> 
> Using FCD to put a stop to Gyuki and restraining without injury would be better feat than getting injured and collapsing out of consciousness and still only stalemating.



He still fought a full Bijuu which outclassed Jiraiya's inability to take a 4 tailed Naruto. 

FCD to destroy Gyuuki, yeah, perhaps you should read the previous post when I asked you to try to pretend you'r enot bias.



> I think at some point in the past you suffered a severe traumatic experience regarding Jiraiya and probably WorldsStrongest too and are still suffering it's effects till now. And so you enter every thread with a conspiracy mindset and think everyone is motivated by bias but it's just you.



Aww, how cute. The reality is though you're just biased. Look at this post, you made points which can easily be used to diminish the arguments you made for Jiraiya yet you were unaware of it. You also wrapped up thinking a simple toad jutsu would defeat an entire Bijuu while Jiraiya couldn't handle a Bijuu's full power. 

You can keep pushing this point, but you needn't act triggered when you're called out on your clear bias.


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## Azula (Nov 18, 2018)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This is the most poorly structured reply I have ever seen



I picked out every single argument you made against every Kage you made in your post and also addressed the downplay you had against FCD.

You don't really do anything except parrot the same thing every single thread refusing to see the factors at play.

And I have seen you struggle to give a straight answer when confronted with overwhelming evidence against your pet theories and instead invent an entire ridiculous fan-fiction line like Shisui having Hashirama dna at the time of activating his Mangekyo. 

If I was as petty as you I would create a thread asking people what they thought of *that*.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So this Kage didn't just troll a Bijuu, right?



That was a rhetorical question which you failed to pick up.

Fodders cannot do much against Kurama much less possess so much destructive power they throw it out of the village. They were getting slaughtered.

If you have evidence or any logical response post away and tell us how fodders threw Kurama out of the village.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 18, 2018)

Azula said:


> I picked out every single argument you made against every Kage you made in your post and also addressed the downplay you had against FCD.
> 
> You don't really do anything except parrot the same thing every single thread refusing to see the factors at play.
> 
> ...



You didn't pick any argument. You made arguments which contradicted yourself without realising you did. 

>Says FCD can solo a Bijuu
>Says I downplay FCD

Again, are you serious? 

Well you asserted that FCD can take a Bijuu, go argue it. Unless it is something you made up so you wouldn't need to admit A3>Jiraiya. 



> That was a rhetorical question which you failed to pick up.
> 
> Fodders cannot do much against Kurama much less possess so much destructive power they throw it out of the village. They were getting slaughtered.
> 
> If you have evidence or any logical response post away and tell us how fodders threw Kurama out of the village.



"Rhetorical question", yeah right. 

But as you said, Kage always troll Bijuu. Unless... only certain Kage then, but then that goes against the point you tried to push.


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## Mawt (Nov 18, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The only reason he got scratched by Asuma is because he couldn't see the extension of chakra on Asuma's blades. That's even noted to be one of the advantages of the Flying Swallow (Asuma's jutsu) in DB2. It has nothing to do with Asuma being superior to Guy in close quarters, he simply had an advantage that Guy didn't have against Kisame. The blade wasn't even close to Samehada when Asuma used it to scratch Kisame's face either. But we know Samehada could still absorb chakra back then, as he did it against Naruto. Lemme show you a few scans of Kisame's abilities in Part 1:
> *Spoiler*:    So as you can see Kisame even in Part 1 still had his monstrous strength, Water Release ninjutsu, and Samehada which could still absorb chakra. So there isn't much evidence that Kisame's portrayal and general standing in the series changed from Part 1 to Part 2, he had the exact same abilities. The only thing you could maybe argue is that Kishimoto changed his mind about was Kisame having tailed beast level chakra reserves because he didn't seem to have thought out the whole tailed beast and jinchuriki thing back in Part 1. But even then that doesn't change much, as he apparently had trouble off-panel against characters like Roshi and only beat a heavily restricted Killer B due to being the perfect counter. Not to mention he still lost to Guy twice, like what was implied to happen back in Part 1.


What I'm arguing isn't Kisame's abilities themselves, but rather their scale. For example, his Suiton in Part 1 was copied by Kakashi's, yet we see in Shippuden his Suiton feats are clearly on a far greater scale. Even if we ignore this and say this was only because Kisame was restricted due to "not wanting to start a war", there are other examples:

Kisame's monstrous strength: Why was he restricted to only using the tip of Samehada against Asuma? He should have easily been able to get in a position to crush Asuma as his 30% Clone did to Guy. Not to mention, Part 1 Kisame is having trouble pushing through nameless toads while Shippuden Kisame could push back a giant raccoon.

Another thing is Kisame's Chakra absorption. It was shown in Shippuden that he could absorb Chakra from his skin. Why couldn't he do that against Asuma's Wind Blade? We see later on in the series that Naruto could see the Chakra from his Wind Blade, so this seems to be an inconsistency with the databook.

He was having trouble with Roshi, obviously, because he was a Jinchuriki. And even so, it seemed to be a mid diff win at best considering he had no noticeable injuries whatsoever. Guy was his perfect counter and used the Gates on him.

Going back on topic, there was really no reason for Kisame to have not just flooded the entire stomach and summon sharks to break out. That's my argument. Any other mid Akatsuki could also break out: Deidara via bombs, Kakuzu via elemental masks, Sasori via Third Kazekage. So it was either plot, Part 1 being weaker than Shippuden, not wanting to start a war, or something along those lines.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Yeah, but how do we know Itachi didn't learn more about it due to talking to Nagato after they were both reincarnated? No one in the Akatsuki seemed to know Pain's true identity nor the extent of his power, so I don't see why or how Itachi would know. As for Obito, if Obito was included that'd mean he'd have to fight alongside other Akatsuki against Jiraiya, and when that happens they'd see how powerful Obito was and that'd blow his cover. Which is why he never did much and acted a fool as "Tobi" when with Deidara.


Well, Itachi has read the Uchiha Stone Tablet and should know about the Rinnegan. They can even see the Rinnegan when they meet in the Akatsuki hideout as holograms. Anyway, Itachi would know at least that Pain would be ridiculously strong to be the leader of a powerful organization. And if we go by the logic Itachi didn't know about his power, he didn't know about the powers of the other Akatsuki either, now did he?

The problem with the Tobi example is that "no amount of back up will change the outcome" implies that *any combination *he takes from the Akatsuki won't amount to anything different. So even a combination of Tobi and Pain, or either one of them alone, can't change the outcome. Another thing is it was stated either in Part 1 or somewhere in Early Shippuden (I forgot) that the Akatsuki didn't go after Naruto because Jiraiya was his guardian. But it was later explained that they didn't go after the Nine Tails because the Nine Tails would disrupt the balance of the Mazo unless it was sealed last. So maybe this is the reason why Itachi didn't want to fight (although it seems to be a plot hole considering Itachi never should have been assigned to capture the Nine Tails if this was the case), or maybe just because he was a spy.



Isaiah13000 said:


> He was obviously referencing the Gates, we see this later on when Gated Guy decimates Kisame multiple times.


Then I agree, because there are feats to support it.



Isaiah13000 said:


> *Spoiler*:     Itachi praised Kakashi by warning Kisame about him, telling him if he fought Kakashi he would suffer injuries. As well as acknowledging his perception and analytical ability, and his ability to master the Sharingan.


I agree with what he said about his perception and analytical ability, as well as the fact he mastered the Sharingan. However, I don't view him as being too much of a threat to Kisame (at least not at this time) considering his battle against Zabuza was a 50-50, and Zabuza was a kid compared to Kisame.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Statements like Itachi's (as well as others) is why I think it's best to view things from an out-of-universe perspective when it comes to them. What sense does it make for Kishimoto to have Itachi tell the truth about Kakashi and Guy's strength, but not Jiraiya's? Why purposely mislead his readers for no reason, and specifically only about Jiraiya? You can say "Oh well Itachi might've been lying" but that cannot be proven, nor does it make any sense for him to lie about Jiraiya but not the others. Kisame believed that Itachi could take on Jiraiya, meaning he definitely could've taken on Guy and Kakashi. Yet, when he told them to retreat against Guy and the incoming reinforcements Kisame didn't get suspicious, even though he knew Itachi could beat them. So even if Itachi said "Oh well I can defeat Jiraiya, but right now I think it's best we wait" Kisame wouldn't have gotten suspicious then either.
> 
> Ultimately, I think at the time that statement was made Kishimoto truly did intend for it to mean Jiraiya = Itachi, and that Kisame and the backup were too weak to make a difference. The fact that he even had Itachi and Kisame run away from him and use Amaterasu to survive one of base Jiraiya's jutsu should reinforce that. However, now that he's developed all of the other Akatsuki members and we see how strong they are it's impossible to envision Jiraiya even stalemating Itachi and Kisame, let alone any other members joining in the fray. So if anything, the whole "Backup wouldn't change the outcome" thing was probably retconned, but the main point of that statement anyway was to indicate Jiraiya = Itachi not Jiraiya > a bunch of Akatsuki members based on what Itachi said. Then in Part 2 we see how strong Jiraiya and Itachi really are, and as I've said before, they were given power-ups that were portrayed as equal in their successors case, and many parallels were made between them in the manga at around the same time. So even if Kishimoto changed his mind about the whole Jiraiya beating Itachi with backup thing, there's nothing that indicates he changed his mind about Jiraiya = Itachi.


He's "misleading" his readers so that he can keep Itachi's truth a secret, and so that he can portray him as a monster who only cares about power. What he said about Guy and Kakashi are true because they're backed up by feats and canonical events. Do I think Jiraiya, base OR Sage Mode, fighting Itachi and the rest of the Akatsuki to a stalemate makes sense? No.

It *does *make sense for him to lie about Jiraiya because he was trying to convince Kisame that Jiraiya was powerful, and that the risks weren't worth it.

Itachi and Kisame's goal was to capture the Nine Tails, not fight against random Shinobi from Konoha who weren't a part of their plans. Kisame *would *get suspicious if Itachi ran away from Jiraiya saying he can take him and that he should wait. Kisame even got suspicious in *canon *where Itachi said a fight between him + Akatsuki and Jiraiya can go either way, which is why he asked him why he retreated.

Anyway, I agree generally that Jiraiya would give Itachi a good match if he's in SM, but I don't think they're equals.



Isaiah13000 said:


> So you're saying that Kishimoto randomly drew that without any plans of Sage Mode, and then came up with Sage Mode later and used that drawing for it? That seems like a pretty big stretch to me to be honest.


Eh, I think we could drop this argument. I haven't even seen the scan, so I can't really make a good call. Sorry if I come across as biased here.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I still don't see how Naruto and Nagato not knowing about it is an indicator of anything significant like you're suggesting.


You're saying his Toad Sage reputation is an indication of SM. How would that be the case of Naruto and Nagato didn't know about his SM, despite being his own students?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Edo Itachi is stronger than living Itachi, and Edo Itachi was backed up by EMS Sasuke. So he had no reason to worry that much, and even then he still showed clear concern over SM Kabuto's power and needed Sasuke's help to overcome it. But SM Kabuto is also a much stronger Sage than Jiraiya is, so the situations can't really be compared. But my main point is, Itachi showed concern over SM, and SM showed it can counter MS users in that fight, and SM Jiraiya possesses the same counters to MS users that SM Kabuto has.


True.



Isaiah13000 said:


> *Spoiler*:
> The statement in DB4 wasn't even "Now that Sasuke has the EMS, he has finally surpassed Itachi in dojutsu and ninjutsu" it just mentioned his surpasses Itachi's with the EMS: It doesn't mean it couldn't have before. The fact the manga states that his regular Sharingan is stronger, and then DB3 states his eyes boast the same power as Itachi's, and DB4 says his MS has the "Straight Tomoe" that Itachi's lacks should make it clear that Sasuke's MS is better.


Orochimaru was talking about his regular Sharingan's potential. There's no way 2T Sasuke is > MS Itachi.

Obito was also foreshadowing Sasuke's visual prowess becoming stronger than Itachi's eventually.

The DB says he has "the power of his brother in his eyes". Not that their eyes are equal in power. It's referring to them both having MS.

Yes, it doesn't say that, but it does imply that he surpasses him once he obtains the EMS.

IIRC, it's never really explained what Choku Tomoe is. Madara also says that only he and Sasuke have obtained it, so it's possible it's an EMS thing.



Isaiah13000 said:


> This is completely different, Hagoromo is the one who actually gave them their powers, not Obito and Kabuto. They also didn't inherit anything from Obito and Kabuto whatsoever, so this doesn't work. It's the fact that they inherited the same powers Jiraiya and Itachi had, and were stated to be equal, but I don't think I can convince you about Jiraiya's SM though so I know you won't agree with this.


Jiraiya didn't give Naruto any powers though. Nor did Itachi, actually. I still don't see how there are any parallels other than one having MS and one having SM.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't think Jiraiya would immediately use it anyway, he would only use it as a last resort when he sees he needs to use it. He didn't have a need to use it when he faced Itachi and Kisame then, so there was no reason for him too. Also it's true that Itachi can bring out the Mangekyo faster than Jiraiya can bring out SM, but he has ways to stall until he can get into SM.


But even then, this gives Itachi a clear advantage over Jiraiya.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I should've clarified then, but regardless, doing the latter is still impressive because it was acknowledged as such in the manga itself.


True.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 19, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> What I'm arguing isn't Kisame's abilities themselves, but rather their scale. For example, his Suiton in Part 1 was copied by Kakashi's, yet we see in Shippuden his Suiton feats are clearly on a far greater scale. Even if we ignore this and say this was only because Kisame was restricted due to "not wanting to start a war", there are other examples:
> 
> Kisame's monstrous strength: Why was he restricted to only using the tip of Samehada against Asuma? He should have easily been able to get in a position to crush Asuma as his 30% Clone did to Guy. Not to mention, Part 1 Kisame is having trouble pushing through nameless toads while Shippuden Kisame could push back a giant raccoon.
> 
> ...



The scale of Kisame's jutsu being greater is probably a combination of the Part 2 power scale changing and retconning the "Only the Second Hokage can use source-less Water Release ninjutsu" and him suddenly being known as the "Tailed Beast Without a Tail". So he probably was retconned a little bit overall, both directly and indirectly.
I don't think it's that he couldn't against Asuma's Flying Swallow, it's rather that he didn't notice it because Asuma didn't use chakra through it until the last second when attacking Kisame. That's why Kisame didn't see it, cause the blade was past his face when Asuma used it, we even see that it's visible right after Asuma retracts the blade.
He's obviously much stronger than Roshi, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying him having trouble with Roshi is still indicate that his standing hasn't changed significantly from Part to Part 2.
Based on Part 2, I don't think Kisame would be defeated by that specific jutsu anymore either. But his overall standing in comparison to everyone else still hasn't seemed to have changed in Part 2 despite whatever little retcons he may have received. 



> Well, Itachi has read the Uchiha Stone Tablet and should know about the Rinnegan. They can even see the Rinnegan when they meet in the Akatsuki hideout as holograms. Anyway, Itachi would know at least that Pain would be ridiculously strong to be the leader of a powerful organization. And if we go by the logic Itachi didn't know about his power, he didn't know about the powers of the other Akatsuki either, now did he?


 Well we don't know how much of the tablet Itachi can even decipher, so we can't go based on that. Anyhow, Itachi does know about the power of Kisame and Deidara at least. But you're right, he has no way of knowing about the others.


> The problem with the Tobi example is that "no amount of back up will change the outcome" implies that *any combination *he takes from the Akatsuki won't amount to anything different. So even a combination of Tobi and Pain, or either one of them alone, can't change the outcome. Another thing is it was stated either in Part 1 or somewhere in Early Shippuden (I forgot) that the Akatsuki didn't go after Naruto because Jiraiya was his guardian. But it was later explained that they didn't go after the Nine Tails because the Nine Tails would disrupt the balance of the Mazo unless it was sealed last. So maybe this is the reason why Itachi didn't want to fight (although it seems to be a plot hole considering Itachi never should have been assigned to capture the Nine Tails if this was the case), or maybe just because he was a spy.


 I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree here, I don't think Itachi saying "Even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome" implies any combination nor members such as Obito or Pain, because Itachi said that the outcome would be a tie between them. Which tells me the main point of that statement was to indicate Jiraiya = Itachi, not Jiraiya > All of the Akatsuki, meaning whatever members he was referring to must've been too weak (at least in Kishi's mind at the time) to affect the outcome of the battle.


> Then I agree, because there are feats to support it.


 Alright.


> I agree with what he said about his perception and analytical ability, as well as the fact he mastered the Sharingan. However, I don't view him as being too much of a threat to Kisame (at least not at this time) considering his battle against Zabuza was a 50-50, and Zabuza was a kid compared to Kisame.


 I mean if you're comparing Part 1 Kakashi to Part 2 Kisame then of course not, but there's no reason to assume Part 1 Kakashi vs Part 1 Kisame wouldn't result in Kisame being seriously wounded. Part 1 Kisame didn't appear all that strong at time. Now while it's true Part 2 Kisame probably got slightly retconned, Part 2 Kakashi also got stronger than Part 1 Kakashi. Point is, 3T Kakashi can challenge Kisame.


> He's "misleading" his readers so that he can keep Itachi's truth a secret, and so that he can portray him as a monster who only cares about power. What he said about Guy and Kakashi are true because they're backed up by feats and canonical events. Do I think Jiraiya, base OR Sage Mode, fighting Itachi and the rest of the Akatsuki to a stalemate makes sense? No.


 But like I said before, even if we both disagree about the whole "backup" thing. That statement still revolves around Jiraiya and Itachi being the primary fighters, and the fight ending in a draw. The fact that Kisame believes he doesn't matter either supports this. It was not meant to say Jiraiya > whole Akatsuki, it was meant to say Jiraiya = Itachi. Now whether you agree or disagree with it is up to you, but that is still what the statement is saying.


> It *does *make sense for him to lie about Jiraiya because he was trying to convince Kisame that Jiraiya was powerful, and that the risks weren't worth it.
> 
> Itachi and Kisame's goal was to capture the Nine Tails, not fight against random Shinobi from Konoha who weren't a part of their plans. Kisame *would *get suspicious if Itachi ran away from Jiraiya saying he can take him and that he should wait. Kisame even got suspicious in *canon *where Itachi said a fight between him + Akatsuki and Jiraiya can go either way, which is why he asked him why he retreated.
> 
> Anyway, I agree generally that Jiraiya would give Itachi a good match if he's in SM, but I don't think they're equals.


 I meant suspicious in the sense that he'd question Itachi's loyalties and where they lie, which, despite what transpired thus far, never happened. If anything, Kisame getting suspicious in that instance doesn't help you, because despite his suspicions he still listened to what Itachi said and didn't do anything despite believing that with his power Itachi could take on Jiraiya. So Itachi telling Kisame the "truth" that he was stronger than Jiraiya and could beat him would change nothing, as even when Kisame believed he could take Jiraiya, and Itachi said there was no need to rush and that he needed to rest, Kisame still did nothing.


> Eh, I think we could drop this argument. I haven't even seen the scan, so I can't really make a good call. Sorry if I come across as biased here.


 Very well.


> You're saying his Toad Sage reputation is an indication of SM. How would that be the case of Naruto and Nagato didn't know about his SM, despite being his own students?


 Because being a "Sage" means nothing to those who don't know what a Sage is or even know about Sage Mode's existence. To Naruto and Nagato it means nothing, because they know nothing about that, but in Itachi's case it is meaningful and indicative of something to him because he actually knows about the three unexplored Sage regions.


> True.
> 
> Orochimaru was talking about his regular Sharingan's potential. There's no way 2T Sasuke is > MS Itachi.
> 
> ...



I agree, Orochimaru was obviously talking about Sasuke's regular Sharingan being superior to Itachi's once fully developed.
Yeah Obito was, and that was implied to have happened when he got MS.
Sasuke's regular Sharingan is already above Itachi's regular Sharingan based on both hype and feats though, so at the bare minimum him having the MS as well should at least put his eyes on par with his brother's if not above.
The "Straight Tomoe" grants the user enhanced fluidity when fighting according to Madara, and Madara implied it had to do with em both being Indra reincarnates rather than having anything to do with the EMS when he said "He not only has the Rinnegan, but he also bears the Straight Tomoe that I have... there must be a connection between us deeper than blood" or something along those lines.



> Jiraiya didn't give Naruto any powers though. Nor did Itachi, actually. I still don't see how there are any parallels other than one having MS and one having SM.



Itachi states he and Jiraiya are equal in Part 1 (We're still debating this, but I'll use it anyway).
Itachi has MS, Jiraiya has SM, Naruto and Sasuke have the same (albeit a superior version) of Jiraiya's SM and Itachi's MS and are said to be equal with them.
Jiraiya dies and Naruto gets SM, Itachi dies and Sasuke gets MS, Jiraiya and Itachi die at about the same time in the manga.
Jiraiya dies and Pain states if Jiraiya had more knowledge he'd have beat him (albeit indirectly). Itachi dies and Obito states if Itachi had more knowledge he'd have beat him (albeit more indirectly).
Jiraiya dies and uses a seal to assist Naruto against the enemy that is pursuing him after his death (Pain). Itachi dies and uses a seal to assist Sasuke against the enemy that is pursuing him after his death (Obito).
Jiraiya and Itachi are both portrayed as the strongest good guys in the manga at the time and the only ones who could stand up to the Akatsuki's strongest leaders at the time. Now that they're both gone, Pain is free to go after Naruto and Obito is free to go after Sasuke.
Now while having a parallel with someone doesn't automatically indicate equality, it does when the parallels involved refer to the strength of a character (Such as SM Naruto and MS Sasuke being equal). Ultimately, it makes no sense for Jiraiya to be a special case among SM users and to be way below Naruto, and for Itachi to be a special case among MS users and to be way above MS Sasuke. When both of their successors, are portrayed as equal after having the same power-ups that their predecessors did. Especially when we know that both of theirs are just weaker versions of what Naruto and Sasuke have. 


> But even then, this gives Itachi a clear advantage over Jiraiya.


Sure, but this doesn't make him stronger. MS Sasuke has the advantage of being able to use the Mangekyo quicker than Naruto can go into SM, yet it was stated if they both fought it would end in a tie and them both dying. Just like what Itachi said about him and Jiraiya.


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## goombanthime (Nov 19, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> He's obviously much stronger than Roshi, I'm not arguing that, I'm just saying him having trouble with Roshi is still indicate that his standing hasn't changed significantly from Part to Part 2.


As a small caveat I would say that Roshi lava could even burn KCM Naruto, so Kisame having trouble with him is no anti-feat


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## Mawt (Nov 19, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The scale of Kisame's jutsu being greater is probably a combination of the Part 2 power scale changing and retconning the "Only the Second Hokage can use source-less Water Release ninjutsu" and him suddenly being known as the "Tailed Beast Without a Tail". So he probably was retconned a little bit overall, both directly and indirectly.
> 
> I don't think it's that he couldn't against Asuma's Flying Swallow, it's rather that he didn't notice it because Asuma didn't use chakra through it until the last second when attacking Kisame. That's why Kisame didn't see it, cause the blade was past his face when Asuma used it, we even see that it's visible right after Asuma retracts the blade.
> 
> ...


1. Agreed.
2. Even so, I don't see how Asuma would ever get in a position to use his Flying Swallow against a guy who could overpower Guy in CQC with just a clone.
3. How though?
4. That's the point. Jiraiya can't one-shot Mid Akatsuki members with that Jutsu.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Well we don't know how much of the tablet Itachi can even decipher, so we can't go based on that. Anyhow, Itachi does know about the power of Kisame and Deidara at least. But you're right, he has no way of knowing about the others.


He didn't know about Deidara's C4. Also, Deidara had plenty of time to improve from their fight up until Part 1.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree here, I don't think Itachi saying "Even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome" implies any combination nor members such as Obito or Pain, because Itachi said that the outcome would be a tie between them. Which tells me the main point of that statement was to indicate Jiraiya = Itachi, not Jiraiya > All of the Akatsuki, meaning whatever members he was referring to must've been too weak (at least in Kishi's mind at the time) to affect the outcome of the battle.


In that case, we'd have to deny a part of the statement. I see what you mean about it establishing Itachi and Jiraiya as equals, but it still doesn't make sense if Itachi is talking about weak members when the point was to capture the Nine Tails at any cost.

But anyway, we can agree to disagree.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I mean if you're comparing Part 1 Kakashi to Part 2 Kisame then of course not, but there's no reason to assume Part 1 Kakashi vs Part 1 Kisame wouldn't result in Kisame being seriously wounded. Part 1 Kisame didn't appear all that strong at time. Now while it's true Part 2 Kisame probably got slightly retconned, Part 2 Kakashi also got stronger than Part 1 Kakashi. Point is, 3T Kakashi can challenge Kisame.


Agreed.



Isaiah13000 said:


> But like I said before, even if we both disagree about the whole "backup" thing. That statement still revolves around Jiraiya and Itachi being the primary fighters, and the fight ending in a draw. The fact that Kisame believes he doesn't matter either supports this. It was not meant to say Jiraiya > whole Akatsuki, it was meant to say Jiraiya = Itachi. Now whether you agree or disagree with it is up to you, but that is still what the statement is saying.


In that case, it means Jiraiya = Itachi + fodder by Part 1 standards. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> I meant suspicious in the sense that he'd question Itachi's loyalties and where they lie, which, despite what transpired thus far, never happened. If anything, Kisame getting suspicious in that instance doesn't help you, because despite his suspicions he still listened to what Itachi said and didn't do anything despite believing that with his power Itachi could take on Jiraiya. So Itachi telling Kisame the "truth" that he was stronger than Jiraiya and could beat him would change nothing, as even when Kisame believed he could take Jiraiya, and Itachi said there was no need to rush and that he needed to rest, Kisame still did nothing.


But it would have made him more suspicious. Why would Itachi, who is perfectly capable of taking Jiraiya on, not fight for no reason?

Meanwhile, Itachi himself says that a fight between him and Jiraiya would end in a draw. With that, Kisame might get suspicious, but there would at least be a little room for doubt. Not to mention, Kisame's suspicion in canon was only that Itachi could take him, not necessarily win. So it doesn't really contradict with anything about what Itachi himself said.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Because being a "Sage" means nothing to those who don't know what a Sage is or even know about Sage Mode's existence. To Naruto and Nagato it means nothing, because they know nothing about that, but in Itachi's case it is meaningful and indicative of something to him because he actually knows about the three unexplored Sage regions.


We can just end this argument. We're no longer debating whether Jiraiya had SM in Part 1.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I agree, Orochimaru was obviously talking about Sasuke's regular Sharingan being superior to Itachi's once fully developed.
> 
> Yeah Obito was, and that was implied to have happened when he got MS.
> 
> ...


1. Agreed.
2. I'm not so sure about his regular Sharingan being above Itachi's by *feats. *Remember Orochimaru's treatment? 
3. But then there is a skill factor. Itachi has shown to use his MS more skillfully and with more care. Remember how he advanced all the way to V4 Susano'o and was still able to keep going while blind, while Sasuke wasn't able to do so?
4. Then that'd be an Indra reincarnation thing. But it was never really brought to attention up until the final battle. It may be possible that it's something which only awakens in the user once they obtain the EMS, otherwise I think there would be instances where Sasuke's fluidity would be noted. Unless you can provide some scans of that?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Itachi states he and Jiraiya are equal in Part 1 (We're still debating this, but I'll use it anyway).
> Itachi has MS, Jiraiya has SM, Naruto and Sasuke have the same (albeit a superior version) of Jiraiya's SM and Itachi's MS and are said to be equal with them.
> Jiraiya dies and Naruto gets SM, Itachi dies and Sasuke gets MS, Jiraiya and Itachi die at about the same time in the manga.
> Jiraiya dies and Pain states if Jiraiya had more knowledge he'd have beat him (albeit indirectly). Itachi dies and Obito states if Itachi had more knowledge he'd have beat him (albeit more indirectly).
> ...


1. Sure, but that means they're equal by Part 1 standards.
2. This has more to do with Naruto and Sasuke. Their enemies (Danzo and Pain) weren't equal in strength.
3. I would argue this is less of a power parallel than "a person close to me died" parallel.
4. Most people don't take either of these statements seriously, but even if we do, Pain was Obito's inferior (meaning Jiraiya would beat somebody inferior to who Itachi beat) going by Manga portrayal. 
5. What seal did Jiraiya use? And Obito wasn't Sasuke's enemy. 
6. Them being the strongest of the good guys doesn't mean they're equal. Hence why "second most powerful" exists.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Sure, but this doesn't make him stronger. MS Sasuke has the advantage of being able to use the Mangekyo quicker than Naruto can go into SM, yet it was stated if they both fought it would end in a tie and them both dying. Just like what Itachi said about him and Jiraiya.


Naruto and Sasuke were always iffy in those forms. It's stated by Zetsu Naruto is most likely stronger than Sasuke. Then it's stated that they'd both die. Then it's stated Naruto needs the Kyuubi's help to take down Sasuke. 

But anyway, I wasn't using this as proof Itachi was stronger definitely. It was just mentioning an advantage Itachi has.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 19, 2018)

Jiraiya is.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 21, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> 1. Agreed.
> 2. Even so, I don't see how Asuma would ever get in a position to use his Flying Swallow against a guy who could overpower Guy in CQC with just a clone.
> 3. How though?
> 4. That's the point. Jiraiya can't one-shot Mid Akatsuki members with that Jutsu.



Alright.
Because like I said before, Asuma has the element of surprise on his side, Guy doesn't. The clone was also physically equal to Kisame anyway, the only difference was the amount of chakra.
Because in the end of the day Roshi is still an irrelevant Jonin-level character with no noteworthy hype or feats.
Agreed.



> He didn't know about Deidara's C4. Also, Deidara had plenty of time to improve from their fight up until Part 1.


 True.


> In that case, we'd have to deny a part of the statement. I see what you mean about it establishing Itachi and Jiraiya as equals, but it still doesn't make sense if Itachi is talking about weak members when the point was to capture the Nine Tails at any cost.
> 
> But anyway, we can agree to disagree.


 Well, was it really at any cost though? The Akatsuki couldn't have done anything with Kurama until after capturing the rest of them which they hadn't even done yet so there'd be no point in capturing Naruto to begin with.


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> In that case, it means Jiraiya = Itachi + fodder by Part 1 standards.


 Yeah, well, fodder in comparison to the two of them at least who can't change the outcome either way.


> But it would have made him more suspicious. Why would Itachi, who is perfectly capable of taking Jiraiya on, not fight for no reason?
> 
> Meanwhile, Itachi himself says that a fight between him and Jiraiya would end in a draw. With that, Kisame might get suspicious, but there would at least be a little room for doubt. *Not to mention, Kisame's suspicion in canon was only that Itachi could take him, not necessarily win. So it doesn't really contradict with anything about what Itachi himself said*.


 You do make a point here, if anything, that just reinforces what was said earlier.


> We can just end this argument. We're no longer debating whether Jiraiya had SM in Part 1.


 Alright.


> 1. Agreed.
> 2. I'm not so sure about his regular Sharingan being above Itachi's by *feats. *Remember Orochimaru's treatment?
> 3. But then there is a skill factor. Itachi has shown to use his MS more skillfully and with more care. Remember how he advanced all the way to V4 Susano'o and was still able to keep going while blind, while Sasuke wasn't able to do so?
> 4. Then that'd be an Indra reincarnation thing. But it was never really brought to attention up until the final battle. It may be possible that it's something which only awakens in the user once they obtain the EMS, otherwise I think there would be instances where Sasuke's fluidity would be noted. Unless you can provide some scans of that?



Okay.
If anything that has to do with Itachi's superior genjutsu skill, not his regular Sharingan being stronger. Based on feats, Sasuke's regular Sharingan can apparently see things down to a microscopic level. Itachi's has shown no such feat.
Itachi uses his with more care yes, but I wouldn't say his usage is more skillful. Both MS Sasuke and MS Itachi have shown V4 Susanoo, and while it's true that Itachi used his V4 Susanoo for longer than Sasuke used his, it was said by Naruto that if he and Sasuke were to fight in the future it would end in a draw. This means that MS Sasuke at least has enough fight left in him to fight again using his V4 Susanoo before total blindness. So he should be able to last at least as long as Itachi, if not longer, if he was given a chance to rest and fight again later on.
It was said in DB4 that Sasuke's MS had the Straight Tomoe, and why would it be mentioned beforehand when no one but Madara had it and could recognize it? Madara wasn't there.



> 1. Sure, but that means they're equal by Part 1 standards.
> 2. This has more to do with Naruto and Sasuke. Their enemies (Danzo and Pain) weren't equal in strength.
> 3. I would argue this is less of a power parallel than "a person close to me died" parallel.
> 4. Most people don't take either of these statements seriously, but even if we do, Pain was Obito's inferior (meaning Jiraiya would beat somebody inferior to who Itachi beat) going by Manga portrayal.
> ...



Agreed.
Yeah it does, but it can't just be coincidence that they were said to be equal with em and Jiraiya and Itachi both have em, and were said to be equal too.
Okay.
Yeah, but unlike Itachi's situation with Obito, Pain was referring to an actual fight against Jiraiya. Obito was referring to Itachi laying a trap for him.
He used the "Finger Carving Seal" as it's called, and Obito was Itachi's enemy though. Obito even notes that Itachi laid the trap to protect Sasuke from Obito, cause he obviously didn't trust him.
By itself it doesn't, but when you take everything else into account, it can imply that. Not to mention in general it should tell you they're on a comparable level at least.



> Naruto and Sasuke were always iffy in those forms. It's stated by Zetsu Naruto is most likely stronger than Sasuke. Then it's stated that they'd both die. Then it's stated Naruto needs the Kyuubi's help to take down Sasuke.
> 
> But anyway, I wasn't using this as proof Itachi was stronger definitely. It was just mentioning an advantage Itachi has.


Zetsu stated that before Sasuke mastered his MS, after he masters it against Danzo and Kakashi, it is stated they would both die making them equal. Naruto says he needs Kurama's power to take down Sasuke because without it'd they both just die, just like how Sasuke says he needs Itachi's eyes to beat Naruto. Then we see in the War Arc that NTCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke (prior to CBS) are portrayed as equal again.


----------



## Mawt (Nov 21, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Alright.
> 
> Because like I said before, Asuma has the element of surprise on his side, Guy doesn't. The clone was also physically equal to Kisame anyway, the only difference was the amount of chakra.
> 
> ...


1. Element surprise as in? Kisame's clone is implied to be physically weaker. Kisame stated that his Ninjutsu and strength were both weakened.
2. I consider any Jinchuriki as an adult at least Low Kage (Akatsuki being = to Jinchuriki, almost all Akatsuki being Kage level at least), and Roshi also had a feat of hurting KCM Naruto with his lava. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Well, was it really at any cost though? The Akatsuki couldn't have done anything with Kurama until after capturing the rest of them which they hadn't even done yet so there'd be no point in capturing Naruto to begin with.


This seems to be a Shippuden retcon. It doesn't really make any sense Pain would send Itachi after the Nine Tails when it had to be captured last. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> You do make a point here, if anything, that just reinforces what was said earlier.


How so?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Okay.
> 
> If anything that has to do with Itachi's superior genjutsu skill, not his regular Sharingan being stronger. Based on feats, Sasuke's regular Sharingan can apparently see things down to a microscopic level. Itachi's has shown no such feat.
> 
> ...


1. Orochimaru complimented Itachi's visual prowess for the feat though. Didn't Sasuke use the Sharingan to see Chakra color in the fight against Deidara?
2. You've got me lost here. Itachi was implied to have his V4 Susano'o from before the battle against Sasuke ever began. Sasuke went blind and was physically unable to use his V4 after it awakened. Naruto saying him and Sasuke drawing was most likely referring to their composite forms and not blind MS specifically, since he knew both him and Sasuke would become stronger later on when they would meet. It doesn't make sense he could use V4. Itachi's resilience is also noteworthy as he could use Susano'o while he was blind and out of Chakra. 
3. Conceded. So that would mean Sasuke's MS > Itachi's MS, but the thing about this fight is it's still a debatable fight whereas SM Naruto and SM Jiraiya really isn't.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Yeah it does, but it can't just be coincidence that they were said to be equal with em and Jiraiya and Itachi both have em, and were said to be equal too.
> 
> ...


1. I guess, but it's not enough proof for me.
2. Well, Obito also did think Itachi would be a nuisance for him to deal with and didn't attack the Leaf until Itachi died. But same could be said for Jiraiya and Pain. Anyway, I still do think taking down Obito would be a superior feat by portrayal, or giving Obito trouble would be a superior feat by portrayal.
3. Well, he gave Naruto (and the Leaf) knowledge about Pain. It's quite different from what Itachi did though. He was Itachi's enemy, but not Sasuke's. Sasuke and Obito had a mutual relationship.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Zetsu stated that before Sasuke mastered his MS, after he masters it against Danzo and Kakashi, it is stated they would both die making them equal. Naruto says he needs Kurama's power to take down Sasuke because without it'd they both just die, just like how Sasuke says he needs Itachi's eyes to beat Naruto. Then we see in the War Arc that NTCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke (prior to CBS) are portrayed as equal again.


If we go by specifics, it makes no sense SM Naruto = blind and out of Chakra MS Sasuke. As I said earlier, it could just be foreshadowing to them becoming equals later on.


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 24, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> 1. Element surprise as in? Kisame's clone is implied to be physically weaker. Kisame stated that his Ninjutsu and strength were both weakened.
> 2. I consider any Jinchuriki as an adult at least Low Kage (Akatsuki being = to Jinchuriki, almost all Akatsuki being Kage level at least), and Roshi also had a feat of hurting KCM Naruto with his lava.



 This could simply mean that they're weaker overall due to having less chakra and can therefore use less jutsu. It doesn't have to mean their physical capabilities are lower. Also like I said before, Asuma's element of surprise was being able to adjust the chakra in his blade at will. Kisame didn't know Asuma could do that, so when Asuma suddenly did it it caught Kisame off-guard and slightly cut him.
There's nothing that implies every jinchuriki is Kage level at all though to begin with. "S-rank" doesn't necessarily mean Kage level either last time I checked. Also Roshi hurting a weakened NTCM Naruto with his lava still isn't enough to declare him as Kage level imo.



> This seems to be a Shippuden retcon. It doesn't really make any sense Pain would send Itachi after the Nine Tails when it had to be captured last.


 Yeah it's odd.


> How so?


 I mean you said it yourself, when Kisame says "With your power you could-" it just reinforces the statement earlier that Itachi could take Jiraiya on, but not necessarily win and stalemate instead.


> 1. Orochimaru complimented Itachi's visual prowess for the feat though. Didn't Sasuke use the Sharingan to see Chakra color in the fight against Deidara?
> 2. You've got me lost here. Itachi was implied to have his V4 Susano'o from before the battle against Sasuke ever began. Sasuke went blind and was physically unable to use his V4 after it awakened. Naruto saying him and Sasuke drawing was most likely referring to their composite forms and not blind MS specifically, since he knew both him and Sasuke would become stronger later on when they would meet. It doesn't make sense he could use V4. Itachi's resilience is also noteworthy as he could use Susano'o while he was blind and out of Chakra.
> 3. Conceded. So that would mean Sasuke's MS > Itachi's MS, but the thing about this fight is it's still a debatable fight whereas SM Naruto and SM Jiraiya really isn't.



He complimented Itachi's visual prowess for Sasuke's ability to counter his Living Corpse Reincarnation as well I believe. Also, yes Sasuke did use it to see chakra as colors against Deidara and he also used it to see the microscopic bombs inside of himself. In-fact, it was right after this fight that Obito said Sasuke's Sharingan was at full power and would soon surpass Itachi's. So this should imply his is stronger than Itachi's and can do things his can't.
I feel like you're missing the fact that yes Itachi did use V4 Susanoo longer than Sasuke did, but Itachi ultimately died due to overusing it. If Sasuke had time to rest there's no reason he couldn't have used it longer as well just like Itachi managed to do while in worse condition than Sasuke. As for the Naruto thing, I don't think the implication was that they'd only be equal with their next power-ups. It seemed to be if they were to fight as they are now, they would both die, and thus Sasuke believed he needed the EMS to beat Naruto and Naruto believed he needed NTCM to beat Sasuke. Even then, when they both get those powers, they're portrayed as equal once again.
The only reason the fight is debatable is because there is no direct statement saying that MS Sasuke surpassed MS Itachi, but as we've discussed thus far, there is a good amount of evidence that seems to suggest that.



> 1. I guess, but it's not enough proof for me.
> 2. Well, Obito also did think Itachi would be a nuisance for him to deal with and didn't attack the Leaf until Itachi died. But same could be said for Jiraiya and Pain. Anyway, I still do think taking down Obito would be a superior feat by portrayal, or giving Obito trouble would be a superior feat by portrayal.
> 3. Well, he gave Naruto (and the Leaf) knowledge about Pain. It's quite different from what Itachi did though. He was Itachi's enemy, but not Sasuke's. Sasuke and Obito had a mutual relationship.



Well I can't change your mind on that, so I'll leave it at that.
I don't think taking down Obito without actually fighting him is more impressive than taking down Pain in actual fight. But we can agree to disagree.
Itachi didn't give anyone knowledge that's true, I just meant they both went out of their way to protect Naruto and Sasuke from their pursuers. As for Sasuke and Obito, Sasuke and Obito's "mutual relationship" was only temporary, Obito was still using Sasuke and even became his enemy again later on. He was still technically always Sasuke's enemy in a way when you think about it.



> If we go by specifics, it makes no sense SM Naruto = blind and out of Chakra MS Sasuke. As I said earlier, it could just be foreshadowing to them becoming equals later on.


It does make sense though if Naruto was referring to him fighting MS Sasuke in the future with them having the same powers they currently had.


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## Mawt (Nov 25, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> This could simply mean that they're weaker overall due to having less chakra and can therefore use less jutsu. It doesn't have to mean their physical capabilities are lower. Also like I said before, Asuma's element of surprise was being able to adjust the chakra in his blade at will. Kisame didn't know Asuma could do that, so when Asuma suddenly did it it caught Kisame off-guard and slightly cut him.
> 
> There's nothing that implies every jinchuriki is Kage level at all though to begin with. "S-rank" doesn't necessarily mean Kage level either last time I checked. Also Roshi hurting a weakened NTCM Naruto with his lava still isn't enough to declare him as Kage level imo.


1. As explained in Part 1 by Ebisu, you start off with stamina and use that for Taijutsu. You convert stamina into Chakra to use Ninjutsu and Genjutsu (rarely Taijutsu as well). If their clones have 30% of their Chakra, they also only have 30% of their stamina, which regardless means their Taijutsu is worse. I know Asuma can adjust the Chakra, but the point was he never should have gotten in the position to do that in the first place. Fight should have just been Kisame blitzing and one-shotting, just like any Mid Kage vs a mere Jonin.

2. We agree all Akatsuki (bar Hidan) are Kage level, no? Zetsu, the weakest of them, could fight against the Mizukage + platoon of fodder + Chojuro at the same time, and managed to escape alive. If the Jinchuriki are = to the Akatsuki, they should be Kage level. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> I mean you said it yourself, when Kisame says "With your power you could-" it just reinforces the statement earlier that Itachi could take Jiraiya on, but not necessarily win and stalemate instead.


Yeah, and the point is Itachi was misleading Kisame with the statement.



Isaiah13000 said:


> He complimented Itachi's visual prowess for Sasuke's ability to counter his Living Corpse Reincarnation as well I believe. Also, yes Sasuke did use it to see chakra as colors against Deidara and he also used it to see the microscopic bombs inside of himself. In-fact, it was right after this fight that Obito said Sasuke's Sharingan was at full power and would soon surpass Itachi's. So this should imply his is stronger than Itachi's and can do things his can't.
> 
> I feel like you're missing the fact that yes Itachi did use V4 Susanoo longer than Sasuke did, but Itachi ultimately died due to overusing it. If Sasuke had time to rest there's no reason he couldn't have used it longer as well just like Itachi managed to do while in worse condition than Sasuke. As for the Naruto thing, I don't think the implication was that they'd only be equal with their next power-ups. It seemed to be if they were to fight as they are now, they would both die, and thus Sasuke believed he needed the EMS to beat Naruto and Naruto believed he needed NTCM to beat Sasuke. Even then, when they both get those powers, they're portrayed as equal once again.
> 
> The only reason the fight is debatable is because there is no direct statement saying that MS Sasuke surpassed MS Itachi, but as we've discussed thus far, there is a good amount of evidence that seems to suggest that.


1. Yes, but Itachi's feat was better. Young Itachi beating a Sannin to the point they had to refrain from fighting him just because he was so strong against Sasuke, who defeated a deathbed Orochimaru with his CS2.

Also, there's no proof seeing microscopic things is something unique to Sasuke's Sharingan. We already agreed Obito was foreshadowing sasuke's later forms when talking about him surpassing Itachi.

2. But the point is Itachi used it while in the worst condition possible. He used it on his deathbed while ill and blind and out of Chakra. Sasuke getting rest is besides the point. He died in the end, yes. But at least he could actually use the ability for longer than Sasuke.

Again, it makes no sense SM Naruto = blind MS Sasuke.

3. Yes,  there is none. And even if Sasuke's visual prowess is greater, Itachi is a skillful Shinobi who always finds ways to fight with his opponent. At the very least, it'd be a close match. Closer than Naruto vs Jiraiya imo.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't think taking down Obito without actually fighting him is more impressive than taking down Pain in actual fight. But we can agree to disagree.
> 
> Itachi didn't give anyone knowledge that's true, I just meant they both went out of their way to protect Naruto and Sasuke from their pursuers. As for Sasuke and Obito, Sasuke and Obito's "mutual relationship" was only temporary, Obito was still using Sasuke and even became his enemy again later on. He was still technically always Sasuke's enemy in a way when you think about it.


1. Well, some people do interpret that feat as Itachi fighting Obito. YOu also forgot to address that Obito called Itachi a nuisance, implying he'd give a difficult fight.
2. Yes, Sasuke became Obito's enemy later on. At his MS stage, they were using each other. Regardless, they weren't "enemies" at that point.



Isaiah13000 said:


> It does make sense though if Naruto was referring to him fighting MS Sasuke in the future with them having the same powers they currently had.


Why would he think Sasuke would recover from his MS blindness?


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 29, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> 1. As explained in Part 1 by Ebisu, you start off with stamina and use that for Taijutsu. You convert stamina into Chakra to use Ninjutsu and Genjutsu (rarely Taijutsu as well). If their clones have 30% of their Chakra, they also only have 30% of their stamina, which regardless means their Taijutsu is worse. I know Asuma can adjust the Chakra, but the point was he never should have gotten in the position to do that in the first place. *Fight should have just been Kisame blitzing and one-shotting, just like any Mid Kage vs a mere Jonin*.


 That doesn't even make sense. By this logic anyone who has less stamina than someone else automatically has worse taijutsu and physical stats which is obviously not true. As for the bold, I disagree with that. I don't think Kisame is two tiers above Asuma, only one, and being a tier or more above doesn't automatically mean you can blitz and one-shot using physical ability alone. 


> 2. We agree all Akatsuki (bar Hidan) are Kage level, no? Zetsu, the weakest of them, could fight against the Mizukage + platoon of fodder + Chojuro at the same time, and managed to escape alive. If the Jinchuriki are = to the Akatsuki, they should be Kage level.


 That feat of Zetsu's makes no sense whatsoever and was simply done to give Chojuro a moment to shine. There is no way Zetsu could fight against NTCM Naruto, Mei, Chojuro, and that platoon all at once. It's best not to take that feat too seriously. 


> Yeah, and the point is Itachi was misleading Kisame with the statement.


 Agree to disagree. 


> 1. Yes, but Itachi's feat was better. Young Itachi beating a Sannin to the point they had to refrain from fighting him just because he was so strong against Sasuke, who defeated a deathbed Orochimaru with his CS2.
> 
> Also, there's no proof seeing microscopic things is something unique to Sasuke's Sharingan. We already agreed Obito was foreshadowing sasuke's later forms when talking about him surpassing Itachi.
> 
> ...



Sure, but both Itachi and Sasuke need to have the MS in order to actually defeat Orochimaru. Orochimaru was beaten mentally in that fight, not physically. Also, it may not be unique to Sasuke's Sharingan, that's true, but what Orochimaru and Obito said still implies that Sasuke's current Sharingan is at least superior to Itachi's own.
Itachi had time to master his MS and rest in between uses, MS Sasuke did not have that luxury, so obviously he couldn't maintain it as long. Which is why I'm saying if he did get rest, he should be able to use it for at least as long as Itachi if not longer because he has more chakra to spare. Sasuke also wasn't entirely blind yet, he could still see to some extent. 
We disagree here. 



> 1. Well, some people do interpret that feat as Itachi fighting Obito. You also forgot to address that Obito called Itachi a nuisance, implying he'd give a difficult fight.
> 2. Yes, Sasuke became Obito's enemy later on. At his MS stage, they were using each other. Regardless, they weren't "enemies" at that point.



Well unless those people believe that Itachi can put up more of a fight against Obito than NTCM Naruto, MS Kakashi, and Guy all working together could it's obvious that he was referring to Itachi laying a trap like he had done prior. If anything, Itachi only stood in Obito's way due to having knowledge on him. Other than that, it simply makes no sense whatsoever for Itachi to be a problem for Obito, especially when the rest of the Akatsuki were around. 
You're being too technical imo, my main point is, Jiraiya and Itachi both did what they could on their deathbed to assist Naruto and Sasuke against their enemy. 



> Why would he think Sasuke would recover from his MS blindness?


 Sasuke wasn't completely blind yet, and I don't think Naruto even knows about it?


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## Mawt (Nov 29, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That doesn't even make sense. By this logic anyone who has less stamina than someone else automatically has worse *taijutsu* and physical stats which is obviously not true.


No, because skill is a factor.

And there's the fact Kisame has already stated that both his Jutsu and strength were weakened. What else could strength refer to? Having less Chakra and therefore less Jutsu makes no sense because that is already covered by Kisame saying his Jutsu were at 30%. Strength is then only boiled down to one thing, physical.



Isaiah13000 said:


> As for the bold, I disagree with that. I don't think Kisame is two tiers above Asuma, only one, and being a tier or more above doesn't automatically mean you can blitz and one-shot using physical ability alone.


Asuma = Jonin

Kisame = Mid Kage

Jonin -> Elite Jonin -> Low Kage -> Mid Kage

Solid 3 tiers.



Isaiah13000 said:


> That feat of Zetsu's makes no sense whatsoever and was simply done to give Chojuro a moment to shine. There is no way Zetsu could fight against NTCM Naruto, Mei, Chojuro, and that platoon all at once. It's best not to take that feat too seriously.


No, because there's nothing that proves he can't. KCM Naruto's Clones feats against the Revived Kage is the outlier here. If his Clones were all Kage level, the would have sweeped in every battle area.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Agree to disagree.


Sure.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Sure, but both Itachi and Sasuke need to have the MS in order to actually defeat Orochimaru. Orochimaru was beaten mentally in that fight, not physically. Also, it may not be unique to Sasuke's Sharingan, that's true, but what Orochimaru and Obito said still implies that Sasuke's current Sharingan is at least superior to Itachi's own.
> 
> Itachi had time to master his MS and rest in between uses, MS Sasuke did not have that luxury, so obviously he couldn't maintain it as long. Which is why I'm saying if he did get rest, he should be able to use it for at least as long as Itachi if not longer because he has more chakra to spare. Sasuke also wasn't entirely blind yet, he could still see to some extent.
> 
> We disagree here.


1. Mentally? He got his arm ripped off. What Orochimaru and Obito said implies Sasuke would eventually surpass Itachi, not that his own Sharingan > Itachi's.
2. This boils down to the skill argument. Itachi uses his MS with care and skill while Sasuke spams it. Sasuke not reaching Itachi's level in Susano'o is only because of this fact. 

And Sasuke did have plenty of time for breaks. After Bee, he had time to rest. He was healed from his battle against the Five Kage to Danzo. He had time to rest before Sakura came to him. 

Sasuke was blind, which is why he couldn't use Susano'o. 
3. Sure.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Well unless those people believe that Itachi can put up more of a fight against Obito than NTCM Naruto, MS Kakashi, and Guy all working together could it's obvious that he was referring to Itachi laying a trap like he had done prior. If anything, Itachi only stood in Obito's way due to having knowledge on him. Other than that, it simply makes no sense whatsoever for Itachi to be a problem for Obito, especially when the rest of the Akatsuki were around.
> 
> You're being too technical imo, my main point is, Jiraiya and Itachi both did what they could on their deathbed to assist Naruto and Sasuke against their enemy.


1. That was Rinnegan Obito's feat. Itachi having knowledge on him is the reason why he was trouble. Akatsuki were around, yes. Were the Akatsuki around when Itachi said no amount of backup could change the outcome of their fight? Yes.
2. No, i'm trying to say th eparralel isn't there because MS Sasuke's enemy was never Obito. It was Danzo.

And Itachi never assisted him in any way there.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Sasuke wasn't completely blind yet, and I don't think Naruto even knows about it?


Then why would Naruto say they're equals?


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## Nuttynutdude (Dec 1, 2018)

Soldierofficial said:


> Who was portrayed as stronger, A3 or Jiraiya?


SM Jiraiya>A3>base Jiraiya


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## Isaiah13000 (Dec 5, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> No, because skill is a factor.
> 
> And there's the fact Kisame has already stated that both his Jutsu and strength were weakened. What else could strength refer to? Having less Chakra and therefore less Jutsu makes no sense because that is already covered by Kisame saying his Jutsu were at 30%. Strength is then only boiled down to one thing, physical.


 I suppose you're right, but I don't think that implies there was any kind of large retcon on Kisame's part. 


> Asuma = Jonin
> 
> Kisame = Mid Kage
> 
> ...


 For me Asuma is an elite Jonin, and Kisame is low Kage, so there is only a tier difference between them for me. 


> No, because there's nothing that proves he can't. KCM Naruto's Clones feats against the Revived Kage is the outlier here. If his Clones were all Kage level, the would have sweeped in every battle area.


 How are they outliers? The fights against the other Kage were emphasized and focused on far more than the fights against anyone else. Those fights should be used to judge the clone's power, not one instance against Zetsu. Additionally, the fact that Obito told Zetsu not to take on Naruto when he only had SM at the time should make it clear that Zetsu is certainly no match for NTCM Naruto. So obviously that entire scenario is an outlier. 


> Sure.
> 
> 
> 1. Mentally? He got his arm ripped off. What Orochimaru and Obito said implies Sasuke would eventually surpass Itachi, not that his own Sharingan > Itachi's.
> ...



An arm being ripped off does nothing to Orochimaru, which is why I said the defeat is more mental than physical. Also, if Sasuke's Sharingan being at "full power" makes Obito believe that his eyes will soon surpass Itachi's, it only makes sense that his standard Sharingan is superior to Itachi's at the moment. 
Sasuke hadn't unlocked V4 Susanoo yet though and had time to rest is my point. Itachi did, so Itachi's ability to use V4 Susanoo doesn't make him a more skilled MS user than Sasuke because he had more time to fully master his and take breaks. Itachi was even more blind than Sasuke was in their final fight, yet Itachi was still using Susanoo. You can tell based on the coloration of both of their eyes. Which is why it only makes sense that if Sasuke had time to rest he could've used it again before going completely blind. 



> 1. That was Rinnegan Obito's feat. Itachi having knowledge on him is the reason why he was trouble. Akatsuki were around, yes. Were the Akatsuki around when Itachi said no amount of backup could change the outcome of their fight? Yes.
> 2. No, i'm trying to say th eparralel isn't there because MS Sasuke's enemy was never Obito. It was Danzo.
> 
> And Itachi never assisted him in any way there.



It was 90% due to the MS and Kamui that Obito pulled that off, he barely even used the Rinnegan so it still applies. Kakashi and the others figured out the secret behind Obito's Kamui, hell, they figured out even more about it than Itachi did and yet they still needed Kakashi to counter it despite him facing off against NTCM Naruto, Guy, and TBM B. Obito was clearly referring to a trap, not an actual fight.
Jiraiya died assisting Naruto against Jiraiya's own enemy, and Itachi died assisting Sasuke against Itachi's own enemy. That is the point I am making, even if you want to argue that Obito wasn't Sasuke's enemy at the time.



> Then why would Naruto say they're equals?


Cause that is what Kishimoto is trying to portray. Realistically, Naruto should not know about the MS or any of it's capabilities at all. But despite that, Naruto says that if and Sasuke fight they both die. Then afterwards, Naruto says he needs NTCM to fight Sasuke and Sasuke says he needs EMS to fight Naruto. This would mean they are equal currently which is why they both think they need another power-up to face the other so that they don't die. But nonetheless, they're portrayed equal again when they both get those power-ups anyway.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 5, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> It *does *make sense for him to lie about Jiraiya because he was trying to convince Kisame that Jiraiya was powerful, and that the risks weren't worth it.
> 
> Itachi and Kisame's goal was to capture the Nine Tails, not fight against random Shinobi from Konoha who weren't a part of their plans. Kisame *would *get suspicious if Itachi ran away from Jiraiya saying he can take him and that he should wait. Kisame even got suspicious in *canon *where Itachi said a fight between him + Akatsuki and Jiraiya can go either way, which is why he asked him why he retreated.



This scene only exists to establish Jiraiya's powerlevel. If the scene of Itachi and Kisame about Jiraiya didn't exist, nothing following that scene would need to change.

Nothing.

Itachi's goto excuse of Naruto not being ready would still apply regardless of Jiraiya's powerlevel.

If Naruto isn't ready it wouldn't matter if Jiraiya was a gennin, a Sannin, or god himself, because refusing to capture Naruto based on his readiness has no relevance to Jiraiya's powerlevel.


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## Mawt (Dec 5, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I suppose you're right, but I don't think that implies there was any kind of large retcon on Kisame's part.


My point here is his original body >> 30% Clone in strength.



Isaiah13000 said:


> For me Asuma is an elite Jonin, and Kisame is low Kage, so there is only a tier difference between them for me.


An Elite Jonin would be Kakashi and Guy.

And Kisame is definitely stronger than Chiyo or Darui imo, so I'd put him at Mid Kage.

But it doesn't matter. For the sake of this debate, even being two tiers above Asuma is more than enough to blitz him instead of having an actual fight with him which seemed to be at least mid diff.



Isaiah13000 said:


> How are they outliers? The fights against the other Kage were emphasized and focused on far more than the fights against anyone else. Those fights should be used to judge the clone's power, not one instance against Zetsu. Additionally, the fact that Obito told Zetsu not to take on Naruto when he only had SM at the time should make it clear that Zetsu is certainly no match for NTCM Naruto. So obviously that entire scenario is an outlier.


The thought of KCM Naruto being able to make 12 Shadow Clones, all at Kage level, makes no sense. Just saying. Are you telling me he's more than twice as strong as the Gokage? And there are a lot more occasions of his Shadow Clones not being Kage level than them being Kage level (all of them except for the one in the Revived Kage fight were not Kage level, otherwise they would have sweeped the battlefield). 

A clone is supposed to be far weaker than the original. You can't compare a KCM clone (if it's not in the Revived Kage fight at least) to a KCM original.

And KCM Naruto being there is irrelevant. Zetsu fighting Mei, a platoon of fodder, and Chojuro all at the same time is still a feat. And it's Kage level no matter what you say. KCM and his clones are a different story altogether, as they weren't my point to begin with.



Isaiah13000 said:


> An arm being ripped off does nothing to Orochimaru, which is why I said the defeat is more mental than physical. Also, if Sasuke's Sharingan being at "full power" makes Obito believe that his eyes will soon surpass Itachi's, it only makes sense that his standard Sharingan is superior to Itachi's at the moment.
> 
> Sasuke hadn't unlocked V4 Susanoo yet though and had time to rest is my point. Itachi did, so Itachi's ability to use V4 Susanoo doesn't make him a more skilled MS user than Sasuke because he had more time to fully master his and take breaks. Itachi was even more blind than Sasuke was in their final fight, yet Itachi was still using Susanoo. You can tell based on the coloration of both of their eyes. Which is why it only makes sense that if Sasuke had time to rest he could've used it again before going completely blind.


1. It clearly did at that time. Either the fight went on for longer and still had the outcome be the same (Itachi defeating him), or that was it and Orochimaru retreated. Either way, that battle alone was enough for Orochimaru to say Itachi was stronger than him. His eye being at "full" power is a vague statement, and no, his eyes soon surpassing Itachi's with a brand new ability  (Choku Tomoe) does not at all mean his base 3T is > Itachi's base 3T. We even saw a deathbed Itachi overpowering 3T Sasuke with Orochimaru absorbed in their battle.
2. There is no evidence that Sasuke being given time to rest would allow him to use Susano'o again. From how the event is portrayed, Sasuke simply went blind without being able to use V4.



Isaiah13000 said:


> It was 90% due to the MS and Kamui that Obito pulled that off, he barely even used the Rinnegan so it still applies. Kakashi and the others figured out the secret behind Obito's Kamui, hell, they figured out even more about it than Itachi did and yet they still needed Kakashi to counter it despite him facing off against NTCM Naruto, Guy, and TBM B. Obito was clearly referring to a trap, not an actual fight.
> 
> Jiraiya died assisting Naruto against Jiraiya's own enemy, and Itachi died assisting Sasuke against Itachi's own enemy. That is the point I am making, even if you want to argue that Obito wasn't Sasuke's enemy at the time.


1. The Rinnegan still contained Six Paths Chakra which gave Obito an amp. I already agreed Obito was referring to a trap. But the point is Obito still thought Itachi was a threat to his operation.
2. Why would their own enemies matter if the entire point is them giving Naruto/Sasuke powers to take down *their own *enemies?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Cause that is what Kishimoto is trying to portray. Realistically, Naruto should not know about the MS or any of it's capabilities at all. But despite that, Naruto says that if and Sasuke fight they both die. Then afterwards, Naruto says he needs NTCM to fight Sasuke and Sasuke says he needs EMS to fight Naruto. This would mean they are equal currently which is why they both think they need another power-up to face the other so that they don't die. But nonetheless, they're portrayed equal again when they both get those power-ups anyway.


Doesn't take away from the fact there is no way MS Sasuke while blind is on par with SM Naruto. 

As I said, the composite argument makes a lot more sense. And that's what they were foreshadowing with them saying they need KCM and EMS respectively to fight each other.


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## Mawt (Dec 5, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> This scene only exists to establish Jiraiya's powerlevel.


His powerlevel put up against two guys who are downplaying each other (one of them implied to be an ordinary Uchiha and the other implied to be an ordinary SOTM).

The reasoning they even use for Jiraiya being a threat is he's a Sannin, which makes no sense as Itachi has already dealt with a Sannin in canon. ABC logic argument doesn't work because Itachi didn't know Jiraiya's abilities and they were comparing reputation. His Toad Sage reputation which I was talking with Isaiah about is something there is no proof Itachi knew about him having SM if his own students didn't know, and he didn't even know how strong SM was at that point in comparison to his own powers. If SM was the main deal, it wouldn't have been his reputation as Sannin but rather his reputation as Toad Sage which would be mentioned.



ShinAkuma said:


> If the scene of Itachi and Kisame about Jiraiya didn't exist, nothing following that scene would need to change.
> 
> Nothing.


Wdym?



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi's goto excuse of Naruto not being ready would still apply regardless of Jiraiya's powerlevel.
> 
> If Naruto isn't ready it wouldn't matter if Jiraiya was a gennin, a Sannin, or god himself, because refusing to capture Naruto based on his readiness has no relevance to Jiraiya's powerlevel.


It has to do with Kisame's suspicion. Kisame would get suspicious if Itachi blatantly states that he can take on Jiraiya, but doesn't want to.

There is no "readiness" factor. Itachi refusing to take Naruto because he doesn't want to is a clear sign of treason. 

Unless you're referring to the Nine Tails needing to be extracted last into the Gedo Mazo, which is a clear retcon since Itachi and Kisame would have never been sent if it had to be extracted last. And they would have mentioned that as their reasoning for not finishing the job.


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> His powerlevel put up against two guys who are downplaying each other (one of them implied to be an ordinary Uchiha and the other implied to be an ordinary SOTM).



What???



> The reasoning they even use for Jiraiya being a threat is he's a Sannin, which makes no sense as Itachi has already dealt with a Sannin in canon.



Are all hokages the same? No. Just because Itachi has dealt with a Sannin doesn't mean he considers them all the same. In fact this scene is evidence of the opposite.



> ABC logic argument doesn't work because Itachi didn't know Jiraiya's abilities and they were comparing reputation. His Toad Sage reputation which I was talking with Isaiah about is something there is no proof Itachi knew about him having SM if his own students didn't know, and he didn't even know how strong SM was at that point in comparison to his own powers. If SM was the main deal, it wouldn't have been his reputation as Sannin but rather his reputation as Toad Sage which would be mentioned.



If there is no evidence one way or another you can't say what he knew. All you can say is we the reader don't know what Itachi know beyond feeling Jiraiya would be a match for him.



> Wdym?



The excuse for not capturing Naruto is that Naruto isn't ready. That excuse remains valid even if Jiraiya didn't exist. Therefore the reason the leave Naruto (A "lie" about Jiraiya's powerlevel) is not valid.



> It has to do with Kisame's suspicion. Kisame would get suspicious if Itachi blatantly states that he can take on Jiraiya, but doesn't want to.



That is irrelevant. The reason for not capturing Naruto is he is not ready to have the Kyuubi extracted. That is why they left Naruto. Jiraiya could be fodder or godlike and that reason would remain. Therefore there is no reason to lie about Jiraiya's power.



> There is no "readiness" factor. Itachi refusing to take Naruto because he doesn't want to is a clear sign of treason.



→ sauce



> Unless you're referring to the Nine Tails needing to be extracted last into the Gedo Mazo,



Yes.



> which is a clear retcon since Itachi and Kisame would have never been sent if it had to be extracted last.



It's not a retcon, they mentioned it in this chapter.



> And they would have mentioned that as their reasoning for not finishing the job.



They did.


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## Mawt (Dec 6, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> What???


 
"With him as our enemy, even the titles of Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison." 

                                                                              ^
                                   This implies they're both ordinary members of their respective groups.



ShinAkuma said:


> Are all hokages the same? No. Just because Itachi has dealt with a Sannin doesn't mean he considers them all the same. In fact this scene is evidence of the opposite.


Okay, but that's not the point. Why would Itachi go from standing up to a Sannin to then running away from another, claiming the title of Sannin is in another league? Especially when he has Kisame here as back up now? And if this Sannin has to protect a kid?

Moreover, he implies that *even with more backup from the Akatsuki*, the result would remain the same. How does that make any sense?



ShinAkuma said:


> If there is no evidence one way or another you can't say what he knew. All you can say is we the reader don't know what Itachi know beyond feeling Jiraiya would be a match for him.


How would Itachi have knowledge on anything about Jiraiya other than the fact he's a Sannin? His abilities aren't exactly public knowledge, and Itachi has never exactly been close to him.



ShinAkuma said:


> → sauce


This scan says something else. 



It's vague and just says "no need to be impatient."

And you didn't address why Itachi and Kisame would be sent to capture the Nine Tails if they already knew it had to be extracted last.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 6, 2018)

Yeah, it's pretty clear to anyone with a brain cell (something Jiraiya's cult is lacking) that Itachi was lying. And it was, even back in part one, portrayed as a lie.

- Itachi claims he stalemates Jiriaya one the basis of him being a Sannin - we all know that's not all true
- We can not assume that Itachi could accurately isolate Jiraya's personal power from him being Sannin either
- Kisame's statement adds dubious uncertainty to the Idea that he needs to run (i.e - that if they fought, they wouldn't just kill each other, that Itachi would win)

And the final nail in the coffin comes from Obito revelling the true Itachi's true alignment.

It's somewhat acceptable if you clung to the notion in part 1 before the expanded story unraveled, but down right embarrassing if you did considering part two's addition to the lore.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 6, 2018)

From a technical perspective of course, Jiraya did look square at Itachi in the face while confronting, and then changing taunts with him. He didn't tell Naruto to avoid Itachi's eyes either. So the Oro, treatment genjutsu followed by cutting his hand off is perfectly probable.


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## Ziggy Stardust (Dec 6, 2018)

Oh yeah, and A3 is obviously stronger. No way someone who nearly dies agains 4 tails Naruto clad in the V2 cloak, with the sealing key to that power can compete with someone who had a legitimate mano-e-mano fight with the 8 tails and stalemated him.


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 6, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> "With him as our enemy, even the titles of Konoha's Uchiha Clan and Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison."
> 
> ^
> This implies they're both ordinary members of their respective groups.



At this point the Uchiha are the most legendary clan ever and the SNSOTM were also legendary. There is nothing "ordinary" about having a title from either of those groups.

That's just straight nonsense.



> Okay, but that's not the point. Why would Itachi go from standing up to a Sannin to then running away from another, claiming the title of Sannin is in another league? Especially when he has Kisame here as back up now? And if this Sannin has to protect a kid?



Because he considers Jiraiya to be his peer. (Kisame considers Jiraiya to be in another league) Also the situation calls for Jiraiya to protect Naruto at all costs, a situation that Itachi recognizes as dangerous to himself.

Itachi's encounter with Oro wasn't all that serious. Plus Itachi said "before these eyes all your jutsus become useless". Well Jiraiya has a very different jutsu set than Oro. Just because Itachi considers Oro's to be useless doesn't mean he would automatically consider Jiraiya as the same. (I would bet that Itachi was not aware of Edo Tensei as one of Oro's jutsus, but that's neither here nor there)

Just to illustrate the point - Itachi disabled Oro with a basic sharingan paralysis genjutsu. Compare that to Jiraiya where Itachi had to use one of his most powerful MS techniques to escape one of Jiraiya's summons.

Of course the scenario's are different, but the fact Jiraiya forced Itachi to use amaterasu says something about Jiraiya abilities.



> Moreover, he implies that *even with more backup from the Akatsuki*, the result would remain the same. How does that make any sense?



It is not clear who the backup is Itachi is referring to. Considering Akatsuki don't actually backup each other then whoever Itachi is considering is obviously not significant.



> How would Itachi have knowledge on anything about Jiraiya other than the fact he's a Sannin?



He was an ANBU squad leader under Danzo who is hyper paranoid? Pretty sure ANBU kept tabs on everybody.



> His abilities aren't exactly public knowledge, and Itachi has never exactly been close to him.



Ok wait, he's legendary enough to dwarf the rep of Uchiha's and swordmens but nobody actually know what he can do?

That definitely doesn't make sense.



> This scan says something else.
> 
> 
> 
> It's vague and just says "no need to be impatient."



Sure, but it gets expanded upon later in Part 2 when Chiyo makes it clear that Naruto cannot be sealed early, hence why the Akatsuki left him.



> And you didn't address why Itachi and Kisame would be sent to capture the Nine Tails if they already knew it had to be extracted last.



Couldn't say, but possibly if it would have been an easy capture they would have held onto him until they could extract Kyuubi? Unfortunately Jman showed up and they decided it was better to run.


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## Mawt (Dec 6, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> At this point the Uchiha are the most legendary clan ever and the SNSOTM were also legendary. There is nothing "ordinary" about having a title from either of those groups.
> 
> That's just straight nonsense.


It isn't nonsense though. Yes, they were legendary groups. Kage is a legendary title. Hashirama saying to Juubito "He's got the same power as the Sage of Six Paths and I'm just a Kage" is similar to what's going on here. Hashirama is a Kage, but far greater than any normal Kage.

Itachi is not just any random fodder 3T ninja (which would be a normal Uchiha). He literally murdered a good portion of his clan, and was a prodigy among the clan.

Kisame is not any normal SOTM. He has far greater showings, is hyped up to be really strong even without his sword. Makes sense going by his feat on Turtle Island, requiring 7th Gate Guy to defeat him while Zabuza was peer to 3T Kakashi (Zabuza being somebody Kisame referred to as a kid).



ShinAkuma said:


> Because he considers Jiraiya to be his peer. (Kisame considers Jiraiya to be in another league) Also the situation calls for Jiraiya to protect Naruto at all costs, a situation that Itachi recognizes as dangerous to himself.
> 
> Itachi's encounter with Oro wasn't all that serious. Plus Itachi said "before these eyes all your jutsus become useless". Well Jiraiya has a very different jutsu set than Oro. Just because Itachi considers Oro's to be useless doesn't mean he would automatically consider Jiraiya as the same. (I would bet that Itachi was not aware of Edo Tensei as one of Oro's jutsus, but that's neither here nor there)
> 
> ...


How would Jiraiya wanting to protect Naruto at all costs be dangerous for Itachi rather than Jiraiya? 

Orochimaru wasn't even able to cast ET against Itachi. He sliced his arm off before he got to it. And his ET was borderline fodder level at that time (likely weaker than his Part 1 ET due to being like 7 years earlier than that, which were still Elite Jonin level at best). Itachi would need to use Susano'o, although only to seal the ET. I also never made the point of Itachi saying all Orochimaru's Jutsu are useless.

I've seen the "Jiraiya forced Itachi into using Amaterasu" argument before, but I was just meaning to ask what stops Itachi from doing the same thing with an Exploding Shadow Clone? I really don't see what forced him into using Amaterasu. Same with using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi.



ShinAkuma said:


> It is not clear who the backup is Itachi is referring to. Considering Akatsuki don't actually backup each other then whoever Itachi is considering is obviously not significant.


No. Itachi's goal is to capture the Nine Tails. He would not cite insignificant back up. He's flat out looking at the situation and saying back up from the Akatsuki can't help, implying higher members of the Akatsuki can't change a thing.

He wouldn't just refer to, say, Hidan and say he can't help. His goal here is to find a way to win. That's leaving out a lot of opportunities for back up.

And we've already seen instances where Akatsuki have broken their 2-man team formations (Kisame, Zetsu, and Pain). Doesn't seem out there that they can do it here as well.



ShinAkuma said:


> He was an ANBU squad leader under Danzo who is hyper paranoid? Pretty sure ANBU kept tabs on everybody.


He was not under Danzo. He was under Hiruzen.

And the Legendary Sannin were all split up at this point. Jiraiya was chasing after Orochimaru. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Ok wait, he's legendary enough to dwarf the rep of Uchiha's and swordmens but nobody actually know what he can do?
> 
> That definitely doesn't make sense.


I'm talking about his specific abilities, not his overall power or reputation.



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure, but it gets expanded upon later in Part 2 when Chiyo makes it clear that Naruto cannot be sealed early, hence why the Akatsuki left him.


Scan?



ShinAkuma said:


> Couldn't say, but possibly if it would have been an easy capture they would have held onto him until they could extract Kyuubi? Unfortunately Jman showed up and they decided it was better to run.


How would they hold him captive for so long if it took them 2 and a half years just to start hunting the Jinchuriki. Doubt they could do that. Best option is Obito, who nobody knew about at that time.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 7, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> It isn't nonsense though. Yes, they were legendary groups.



You understand that legendary cannot mean ordinary?



> Kage is a legendary title. Hashirama saying to Juubito "He's got the same power as the Sage of Six Paths and I'm just a Kage" is similar to what's going on here. Hashirama is a Kage, but far greater than any normal Kage.



No it's not. They are simply indicating that Jiraiya's rep is above theirs.

That's not a downplay, it's just a fact.



> Itachi is not just any random fodder 3T ninja (which would be a normal Uchiha). He literally murdered a good portion of his clan, and was a prodigy among the clan.



Yes he was.

Kisame never indicated Itachi was a fodder Uchiha. That is just you projecting that idea that isn't indicated anywhere.



> Kisame is not any normal SOTM. He has far greater showings, is hyped up to be really strong even without his sword. Makes sense going by his feat on Turtle Island, requiring 7th Gate Guy to defeat him while Zabuza was peer to 3T Kakashi (Zabuza being somebody Kisame referred to as a kid).



There is alway going to be different levels to groups. Not everybody in a group is all the same. The Sannin aren't all the same, the Kages aren't all the same and the Uchiha aren't all the same, but they are all Legendary.



> How would Jiraiya wanting to protect Naruto at all costs be dangerous for Itachi rather than Jiraiya?



Because he would be willing to do whatever it takes.



> Orochimaru wasn't even able to cast ET against Itachi.



He wasn't trying.



> He sliced his arm off before he got to it.



No, he sliced his hand off before he could kai.



> And his ET was borderline fodder level at that time (likely weaker than his Part 1 ET due to being like 7 years earlier than that, which were still Elite Jonin level at best). Itachi would need to use Susano'o, although only to seal the ET.



Sure...I guess.



> I also never made the point of Itachi saying all Orochimaru's Jutsu are useless.



I did. Oro and Jiraiya have different jutsus. As such one cannot say that Jiraiya is the same as Oro vs Itachi.



> I've seen the "Jiraiya forced Itachi into using Amaterasu" argument before, but I was just meaning to ask what stops Itachi from doing the same thing with an Exploding Shadow Clone?



Exploding shadow clone is not powerful enough?



> I really don't see what forced him into using Amaterasu.



He was on the clock and they couldn't afford to dick around for fear of death.



> Same with using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi.



He had to use Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. They were in Konoha and the fight was taking too long. Itachi had to end the fight ASAP. The fastest way to do that without drawing attention is a genjutsu that takes 1 second.



> No. Itachi's goal is to capture the Nine Tails. He would not cite insignificant back up. He's flat out looking at the situation and saying back up from the Akatsuki can't help, implying higher members of the Akatsuki can't change a thing.



Again you are projecting. Itachi did not say Akatsuki. We know teams do not "back each other up" by interfering in others fights.

Sasori? Dead, no backup.

Deidara? Dead, no backup.

Hidan and Kakuzu? Dead, no backup.

Nagato? Dead, no backup.

Kisame? Dead, no backup.

There is no backup in this form. Every single member legit died with no backup.



> He wouldn't just refer to, say, Hidan and say he can't help. His goal here is to find a way to win. That's leaving out a lot of opportunities for back up.



We have gone through the entire manga and backup never happened like this, yet people would still rather believe a no limits fallacy that Itachi was talking about absolutely everybody.

Hey man, do your thing.



> And we've already seen instances where Akatsuki have broken their 2-man team formations (Kisame, Zetsu, and Pain). Doesn't seem out there that they can do it here as well.



A solo mission is the OPPOSITE of backup.



> He was not under Danzo. He was under Hiruzen.



You are correct. Itachi collected secrets about the village to blackmail Danzo. My mistake.



> And the Legendary Sannin were all split up at this point. Jiraiya was chasing after Orochimaru.



That's the point. Jiraiya left the village. Konoha intel would have been keeping tabs on him.



> I'm talking about his specific abilities, not his overall power or reputation.



Itachi was part of ANBU, collected secrets on Konoha and reported to Jiraiya's teacher. He had every opportunity to learn.



> Scan?



→ sauce

They basically confirm both things Itachi said - Jiraiya too stronk and Naruto can wait.



> How would they hold him captive for so long



Genjutsu? Pein can implant mind controlling genjutsus, not to mention Itachi can as well.


----------



## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 7, 2018)

Shark said:


> Wasn't A4 the Raikage during Hiruzen's time, and not A3?


A4, was probably during his second stint...


----------



## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> A4, was probably during his second stint...



Minato was still alive when A was still actively fighting in wars. 

This means that A3 was still alive and well when Hiruzen was still the Hokage.


----------



## Leaf Hurricane (Dec 7, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Minato was still alive when A was still actively fighting in wars.
> 
> This means that A3 was still alive and well when Hiruzen was still the Hokage.


That's what I meant. . A3 was Raikage during Hiruzen's first run as Hokage. 
A4 could have been the Raikage after Hiruzen reprised his role after Minato.


----------



## Mawt (Dec 7, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> You understand that legendary cannot mean ordinary?


You understand there are different levels of legendary?



ShinAkuma said:


> That's not a downplay, it's just a fact.


It is downplay.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes he was.
> 
> Kisame never indicated Itachi was a fodder Uchiha. That is just you projecting that idea that isn't indicated anywhere.


According to Kisame, the reputation of the Uchiha is less than that of the Sannin. Unless you think an MS user is weaker than a Sannin, it's bright as day he's downplaying Itachi.



ShinAkuma said:


> There is alway going to be different levels to groups. Not everybody in a group is all the same. The Sannin aren't all the same, the Kages aren't all the same and the Uchiha aren't all the same, but they are all Legendary.


Yes, that's the point. Kisame forgot to distinguish himself and Itachi from the rest of their respective groups.



ShinAkuma said:


> Because he would be willing to do whatever it takes.


That makes no sense.



ShinAkuma said:


> He wasn't trying.


Yes, he was.



ShinAkuma said:


> No, he sliced his hand off before he could kai.


And slicing his hand off prevented him from using Edo Tensei.



ShinAkuma said:


> I did. Oro and Jiraiya have different jutsus. As such one cannot say that Jiraiya is the same as Oro vs Itachi.


Then address this to somebody else who thinks the fight would go that way, because that's not me.



ShinAkuma said:


> Exploding shadow clone is not powerful enough?


Then he could aim Amaterasu at Jiraiya.



ShinAkuma said:


> Again you are projecting. Itachi did not say Akatsuki. We know teams do not "back each other up" by interfering in others fights.
> 
> Sasori? Dead, no backup.
> 
> ...


Say what you will, but it's obvious Itachi was referring to the Akatsuki as backup. He had no other choices of backup.



ShinAkuma said:


> We have gone through the entire manga and backup never happened like this, yet people would still rather believe a no limits fallacy that Itachi was talking about absolutely everybody.
> 
> Hey man, do your thing.


Do you not know what a hypothetical situation is??



ShinAkuma said:


> A solo mission is the OPPOSITE of backup.


When did I say otherwise? Did you forget to look at the context, or did you purposely ignore the fact this point was used as proof the Akatsuki have no problem with breaking two-man squad formation?



ShinAkuma said:


> That's the point. Jiraiya left the village. Konoha intel would have been keeping tabs on him.


No they wouldn't have. Not being in the Leaf would mean his whereabouts are unknown, just like Tsunade's.



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi was part of ANBU, collected secrets on Konoha and reported to Jiraiya's teacher. He had every opportunity to learn.


No, he didn't. Hiruzen and Jiraiya had no affiliation by the time Hiruzen was Hokage. They were stuck to their own businesses.



ShinAkuma said:


> → sauce
> 
> They basically confirm both things Itachi said - Jiraiya too stronk and Naruto can wait.


Did you even read the scan? That has nothing to do with the Nine Tails having to be sealed last. That's generalizing the fact that the Sealing Process is long, which is common knowledge to you and I.

And this scan literally only reinforces my point. The Akatsuki as a whole, even with Pain, isn't going after Naruto because of Jiraiya.



ShinAkuma said:


> Genjutsu? Pein can implant mind controlling genjutsus, not to mention Itachi can as well.


Itachi has never controlled anybody worth mentioning with Genjutsu.

Pain has never used Genjutsu. He's put mind blockers on people though.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 7, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> You understand there are different levels of legendary?



I do....none of those levels qualify as ordinary.



> It is downplay.



No.



> According to Kisame, the reputation of the Uchiha is less than that of the Sannin. Unless you think an MS user is weaker than a Sannin, it's bright as day he's downplaying Itachi.



Or Jiraiya's rep was off the charts at this time.

For example, Lebron James has big time rep currently, but many still consider Michael Jordan to be superior.



> Yes, that's the point. Kisame forgot to distinguish himself and Itachi from the rest of their respective groups.



I'm not sure If *I* can take him, but *you*.

Look, he did no such thing. he is talking about himself and Itachi and clearly feels they are special.



> That makes no sense.



What the fuck?

It makes perfect sense. You don't just get to say random things and expect it to be a coherent argument. lol



> Yes, he was.



Let me make this clear to you - Oro was not trying to perform Edo. That is nothing but fanfiction on your part.

Move along.



> Then address this to somebody else who thinks the fight would go that way, because that's not me.



So you agree that Jiraiya can defeat or stalemate Itachi?




> Then he could aim Amaterasu at Jiraiya.



He could, but if it turns out to be a kage bunshin, they are guaranteed dead.

itachi is not as dumb as you seem to think he is.



> Say what you will, but it's obvious Itachi was referring to the Akatsuki as backup. He had no other choices of backup.



That jounin bum from the sand, Yuuri, was an Akatsuki wannabe. Even hosted Itachi's shoten.

There is no Akatsuki backup. Fanfiction, nothing more.



> Do you not know what a hypothetical situation is??



Yes.

Hypothetically does not equal probably or even logical. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it could ever actually happen.



> When did I say otherwise? Did you forget to look at the context, or did you purposely ignore the fact this point was used as proof the Akatsuki have no problem with breaking formation?



You are attempting to prove the other teams will swoop in and save the day. The manga have proven this is not the case. Breaking formation will not change what the manga has proven.



> No they wouldn't have. Not being in the Leaf would mean his whereabouts are unknown, just like Tsunade's.



Intel is generally considered a secret.



> No, he didn't.



Look, Itachi is part of ANBU. Hiruzen was Jiraiya's teacher, who Itachi reported to. The Uchiha were the villages police force. Akatsuki were gathering intel on the villages. Oro was in the Akatsuki.

Itachi had every opportunity to gather intel on Jiraiya from multiple sources. You don't get to say he knew nothing when it is far more logical that he knew something. The best you get is that we don't know what he knows.

But then you must defer to what we are told on panel. In this case Iatchi believed Jiraiya was dangerous enough to pose a serious problem.

It doesn't matter what you like.



> Did you even read the scan? That has nothing to do with the Nine Tails having to be sealed last. That's generalizing the fact that the Sealing Process is long, which is common knowledge to you and I.



Look you can use logic or you can accept what the scan tell us, I don't care which.

If you want to defer to the scans only Itachi admitted he would die against Jiraiya. End of story. You got nothing.

And don't try and bullshit me with "all the Akatsuki" because - *Did you even read the scan? That has nothing to do with all the Akatsuki as backup. That's generalizing the fact that they have random bums working for them, which is common knowledge to you and I.*

I can play this game too.



> And this scan literally only reinforces my point. The Akatsuki as a whole, even with Pain, isn't going after Naruto because of Jiraiya.



The scan indicates exactly what I said it does - they waited on Naruto because of the sealing ritual and because Jiraiya was with him.



> Itachi has never controlled anybody worth mentioning with Genjutsu.



He controlled the woman in the bar to distract Jiraiya. I don't care if you think she's worth mentioning, it is a feat he performed.



> Pain has never used Genjutsu. He's put mind blockers on people though.



Dude....seriously....did you even read the manga?

→ sauce


----------



## Mawt (Dec 8, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> I do....none of those levels qualify as ordinary.


Can you not read?



ShinAkuma said:


> No.


Yes.



ShinAkuma said:


> Or Jiraiya's rep was off the charts at this time.


So is an MS user's.



ShinAkuma said:


> I'm not sure If *I* can take him, but *you*.
> 
> Look, he did no such thing. he is talking about himself and Itachi and clearly feels they are special.


And he's saying Itachi is an Uchiha and he's a member of the SOTM as his argument. Then Itachi says they'd stalemate at best, referring to Kisame's reputation analysis.



ShinAkuma said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> It makes perfect sense. You don't just get to say random things and expect it to be a coherent argument. lol


Jiraiya protecting Naruto at all costs will hinder him, not Itachi.



ShinAkuma said:


> Let me make this clear to you - Oro was not trying to perform Edo. That is nothing but fanfiction on your part.
> 
> Move along.


Whether he was going to use it or not is entirely irrelevant. He wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place because he got his arm sliced off in the first minute of the battle. And even if he got it off, Itachi would have stomped him regardless because his Edo was fodder tier at that time. Nothing, at all, contradicts with Itachi saying none of Orochimaru's Jutsu would work on him. And I'm not sure why you brought this point up in the first place, as it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.



ShinAkuma said:


> So you agree that Jiraiya can defeat or stalemate Itachi?


Again, can you read? Me saying Itachi doesn't stomp Jiraiya doesn't mean I think Jiraiya can defeat or stalemate him.

As for my answer, I do think Jiraiya would give Itachi a good fight (depending on the circumstances), but I see Itachi winning in the end.



ShinAkuma said:


> He could, but if it turns out to be a kage bunshin, they are guaranteed dead.
> 
> itachi is not as dumb as you seem to think he is.


1. Susano'o.
2. Itachi can turn his head to make Amaterasu spread the other way if Jiraiya turned out to be a Shadow Clone.
3. Jiraiya has never used Shadow Clones in intense combat with a plan prepared for it (he isn't a Kakashi-Itachi type fighter who uses them as feints as a norm). Nor did Itachi know he could use Shadow Clones.



ShinAkuma said:


> That jounin bum from the sand, Yuuri, was an Akatsuki wannabe. Even hosted Itachi's shoten.
> 
> There is no Akatsuki backup. Fanfiction, nothing more.


Even a Shoten could have changed the outcome, assuming Jiraiya would extreme diff Itachi and Kisame.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.
> 
> Hypothetically does not equal probably or even logical. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it could ever actually happen.


Itachi is referring to the Akatsuki in a hypothetical situation here where they help. That's what's written in the Manga.



ShinAkuma said:


> You are attempting to prove the other teams will swoop in and save the day. The manga have proven this is not the case. Breaking formation will not change what the manga has proven.


None of the other teams were close to each other to swoop in and save the day. Itachi is assuming they're here in this scenario. I seriously don't get how it's so hard to understand this.



ShinAkuma said:


> Intel is generally considered a secret.


You're telling me the ANBU wouldn't tell the Konoha Elders about Tsunade's whereabouts?



ShinAkuma said:


> Look, Itachi is part of ANBU. Hiruzen was Jiraiya's teacher, who Itachi reported to.


Instead of repeating the same things, try to address my point.



ShinAkuma said:


> The Uchiha were the villages police force. Akatsuki were gathering intel on the villages. Oro was in the Akatsuki.


The Akatsuki were after the Jinchuriki, they were not getting intel on the villages, nor did they have any reason to get intel on Jiraiya, somebody who was no longer even in the Leaf Village (lost, just like Tsunade) and somebody none of them cared to mention at all. Orochimaru was important because he was a traitor to the Akatsuki.

Even Pain, who was the leader of the organization and was Jiraiya's past student, didn't know about his Sage Mode.



ShinAkuma said:


> But then you must defer to what we are told on panel. In this case Iatchi believed Jiraiya was dangerous enough to pose a serious problem.


Yes, and his reasoning was already given. He was a Sannin.



ShinAkuma said:


> Look you can use logic or you can accept what the scan tell us, I don't care which.


How about address my point, where I prove the scan has nothing to do with what you're talking about?



ShinAkuma said:


> If you want to defer to the scans only Itachi admitted he would die against Jiraiya. End of story. You got nothing.


You're only running in circles here. I've already debunked a million times why Itachi's word makes no sense.



ShinAkuma said:


> And don't try and bullshit me with "all the Akatsuki" because - *Did you even read the scan? That has nothing to do with all the Akatsuki as backup. That's generalizing the fact that they have random bums working for them, which is common knowledge to you and I.*


That has nothing to do with the scan. Chiyo didn't even know they had random people working for them.



ShinAkuma said:


> The scan indicates exactly what I said it does - they waited on Naruto because of the sealing ritual and because Jiraiya was with him.


Your dishonesty isn't helping you here. You changed your point from Kurama having to be extracted last to the Sealing Ritual taking time, which is something that happens with every Bijuu.



ShinAkuma said:


> He controlled the woman in the bar to distract Jiraiya.


He controlled a fodder with no Genjutsu resistance.



ShinAkuma said:


> I don't care if you think she's worth mentioning, it is a feat he performed.


That's an NLF.



ShinAkuma said:


> Dude....seriously....did you even read the manga?


Did you read my post or the scan?



Itachiisinvincible said:


> Pain has never used Genjutsu. He's put *mind blockers* on people though.


----------



## 1yesman9 (Dec 8, 2018)

Gifted said:


> Can you see A3 beating Pain w/ knowledge?



Jiraya beats pain with knowledge because he can rush past the paths and reach Nagato before they do. Meaningless statement.


----------



## A Optimistic (Dec 8, 2018)

Jiraiya is portrayed as stronger, though A3 is very close to him in strength. Pein is just a very bad matchup for A3 in all honesty.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 8, 2018)

Jiraiya fans, your only hope is Kashin Koji = Jiraiya.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 8, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Can you not read?



Yes.

Let me be clear - Ordinary cannot = Legendary.

Ever.



> Yes.



Fanfiction.

They were never downplaying each other. No translation or translator ever interpreted this.

You're simply making things up due to lack of facts.




> So is an MS user's.



I know. That's exactly why it's impressive for Jiraiya.



> And he's saying Itachi is an Uchiha and he's a member of the SOTM as his argument. Then Itachi says they'd stalemate at best, referring to Kisame's reputation analysis.



Itachi is a genius level ninja. He would never make a battle analysis based on reputation alone.



> Jiraiya protecting Naruto at all costs will hinder him, not Itachi.



No.

Motivation to push all out is dangerous to Itachi who doesn't want to die at this point in the manga.



> Whether he was going to use it or not is entirely irrelevant.



Of course it's relevant. It indicates his mindset. Oro was not looking to kill Itachi.



> He wouldn't have been able to do it in the first place because he got his arm sliced off in the first minute of the battle.



Edo can be prepped ahead of time if Oro wants to kill.



> And even if he got it off, Itachi would have stomped him regardless because his Edo was fodder tier at that time.



Itachi would require some form of sealing technique, sword of totsuka perhaps, even to defeat weaker Edo due to their regen.

Forcing Itachi into Sasunoo would be terrible for Itachi because he has low stamina.



> Nothing, at all, contradicts with Itachi saying none of Orochimaru's Jutsu would work on him.



Edo would work against Itachi. It's a no limits fallacy to think otherwise.



> And I'm not sure why you brought this point up in the first place, as it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.



Because you attempted to compare Oro to Jiraiya in relation to Itachi.



> Again, can you read? Me saying Itachi doesn't stomp Jiraiya doesn't mean I think Jiraiya can defeat or stalemate him.



Which is why I asked.

You're not exactly good at making sense.



> As for my answer, I do think Jiraiya would give Itachi a good fight (depending on the circumstances), but I see Itachi winning in the end.



Fair enough, but Itachi disagrees.



> 3. Jiraiya has never used Shadow Clones in intense combat with a plan prepared for it (he isn't a Kakashi-Itachi type fighter who uses them as feints as a norm).



He literally used a shadow clone for a sneak attack in his fight against Pein.

→ sauce



> Nor did Itachi know he could use Shadow Clones.



This is just desperation nonsense. Why would Itachi think a ninja of Jiraiya's caliber couldn't use a shadow clone when virtually every high level ninja can use a clone.

Pure nonsense.



> Even a Shoten could have changed the outcome, assuming Jiraiya would extreme diff Itachi and Kisame.



Not the point. There is other options for "backup" that isn't the main Akatsuki.



> Itachi is referring to the Akatsuki in a hypothetical situation here where they help.



Where does Itachi mention the Akatsuki as backup?

When has the Akatsuki ever provided backup in a fight?

Fanfiction.



> That's what's written in the Manga.



It's literally not.



> None of the other teams were close to each other to swoop in and save the day. Itachi is assuming they're here in this scenario. I seriously don't get how it's so hard to understand this.



Because it's something you are making up. It's not actually an option as per canon.



> You're telling me the ANBU wouldn't tell the Konoha Elders about Tsunade's whereabouts?



Intel is on a need to know basis. The same reason the FBI doesn't tell the president every secret.



> Instead of repeating the same things, try to address my point.



Your "point" is fanfiction. There is nothing to address.

You don't get to make shit up randomly and expect it to be given credibility.



> The Akatsuki were after the Jinchuriki, they were not getting intel on the villages,



I'm not sure if your just trolling or simply this ridiculous.

Why would the Akatsuki go after jin's completely blind? They wouldn't. Obviously they would have intel.



> nor did they have any reason to get intel on Jiraiya, somebody who was no longer even in the Leaf Village (lost, just like Tsunade) and somebody none of them cared to mention at all. Orochimaru was important because he was a traitor to the Akatsuki.



I'm sure the Akatsuki made themselves aware of any potential threats considering they were populated with 2 leaf ninjas and Jiraiya's former student.

But I don't expect you to accept logic.



> Even Pain, who was the leader of the organization and was Jiraiya's past student, didn't know about his Sage Mode.



Why would they need to know about sage mode? It is you who thinks Jiraiya is only powerful due to sage mode. The manga listed him as a powerful and legendary ninja *without* sage mode. His reputation for being very powerful does not require sage mode.



> Yes, and his reasoning was already given. He was a Sannin.



Itachi estimated that Jiraiya was powerful enough to kill him. He also happens to be a sannin.



> How about address my point, where I prove the scan has nothing to do with what you're talking about?



Look you can fanfiction your way through the manga if you like. If it's not obvious to you what Chiyo is talking about then you can insert any nnsensical reason you want. I don't care.



> You're only running in circles here. I've already debunked a million times why Itachi's word makes no sense.



You have offered a version of you fanfiction and ran with it. I'm sorry I don't care about your made up things.



> That has nothing to do with the scan. Chiyo didn't even know they had random people working for them.



It wasn't Chiyo who was talking about backup.

Try to keep up.



> Your dishonesty isn't helping you here. You changed your point from Kurama having to be extracted last to the Sealing Ritual taking time, which is something that happens with every Bijuu.



The extraction of the bijuu is accomplished via the sealing ritual. They are interconnected.




> He controlled a fodder with no Genjutsu resistance.



Yes, hence my point.



> Did you read my post or the scan?



It's a shield made from genjutsu...?

Do you even know what you're reading?


----------



## Mawt (Dec 9, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.
> 
> Let me be clear - Ordinary cannot = Legendary.
> 
> Ever.


I already said that the groups are legendary, but Itachi and Kisame are ordinary even among them. It's just like Hashirama using the fact he's a Kage as reasoning for him being weaker than Obito.



ShinAkuma said:


> I know. That's exactly why it's impressive for Jiraiya.


Are you implying the reputation of the Sannin is greater than that of a Mangekyou Sharingan wielder?



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi is a genius level ninja. He would never make a battle analysis based on reputation alone.


True, but reputation was the key factor here.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> Motivation to push all out is dangerous to Itachi who doesn't want to die at this point in the manga.


Having to protect a little kid is easily the bigger disadvantage.



ShinAkuma said:


> Of course it's relevant. It indicates his mindset. Oro was not looking to kill Itachi.


Yes, but he was trying to subdue him.



ShinAkuma said:


> Edo can be prepped ahead of time if Oro wants to kill.


What if Itachi is a step ahead? If he has intent to kill, he can go for a blitz.



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi would require some form of sealing technique, sword of totsuka perhaps, even to defeat weaker Edo due to their regen.
> 
> Forcing Itachi into Sasunoo would be terrible for Itachi because he has low stamina.


Even when he was on his deathbed, Itachi could use Susano'o for long enough to seal Orochimaru's Hydra, then walk up to Sasuke. The amount of time he'd need to keep Susano'o activated would be very small, and it's possible he'd be able to finish the battle before Orochimaru summons the coffins assuming he goes for a blitz. It'd still be a low difficulty win.



ShinAkuma said:


> Edo would work against Itachi. It's a no limits fallacy to think otherwise.


How is it a no limits fallacy?



ShinAkuma said:


> Because you attempted to compare Oro to Jiraiya in relation to Itachi.


What I said about Orochimaru had nothing to do with whether he used Edo Tensei or not. The point was Itachi stood up to a Sannin, so there's no reason for him to run away from another one. It has more to do with reputation than ability.



ShinAkuma said:


> Fair enough, but Itachi disagrees.


And how do you know Itachi wasn't lying? Itachi went to the Leaf Village with his own purpose, to pay respects to Hiruzen and see if Sasuke was okay. It was only natural to not attack a comrade. That being said, it is very possible that he wanted to convince Kisame that Jiraiya was stronger than him as an excuse to not have to fight him.

And even if he truly meant that, we've seen time and time again in the Manga that just because a character has too much confidence/a lack of confidence in what they can do doesn't necessarily speak as a judge of what they really can do. For example, Kisame thought he could take on Guy, but he lost. Kid Sasuke thought he could take Itachi on, but he couldn't. Asuma thought he could take Itachi and Kisame down, but he couldn't.



ShinAkuma said:


> He literally used a shadow clone for a sneak attack in his fight against Pein.
> 
> → sauce


I'm aware of that, but my point was he doesn't use it in the middle of combat like Kakashi or Itachi. He prefers to use it when he has a large-scale plan set up.



ShinAkuma said:


> This is just desperation nonsense. Why would Itachi think a ninja of Jiraiya's caliber couldn't use a shadow clone when virtually every high level ninja can use a clone.
> 
> Pure nonsense.


We've seen high level Shinobi who can't use Shadow Clones. Tsunade, Sasuke, and Obito are such examples.

But even if Itachi did assume he could use Shadow Clones, he could have merely swung his eyes to the side to set the toad stomach on fire either way. We've already seen he can set large areas on fire with Amaterasu in the fight against Sasuke. If he truly had killing intent, I don't see why he wouldn't do this.



ShinAkuma said:


> Not the point. There is other options for "backup" that isn't the main Akatsuki.


Any examples? You'd think that any Kage, or even Elite Jonin level Shinobi, would be able to change the outcome of a battle between Itachi, Kisame, and Jiraiya.



ShinAkuma said:


> Where does Itachi mention the Akatsuki as backup?


Nowhere. It was my, as well as numerous other people's, interpretation of the quote. However, it's reinforced by what Chiyo said later on.



ShinAkuma said:


> When has the Akatsuki ever provided backup in a fight?


Nowhere, but we've seen they're fine with breaking formation. We've seen Hidan and Kakuzu fight together (meaning they're fine with fighting together), and we've seen solo missions as well. This coupled with what Itachi said about backup, I really don't see it as a stretch that he was referring to the Akatsuki. And even a single member could have changed the outcome of the battle, as I believe you would agree with.



ShinAkuma said:


> Intel is on a need to know basis. The same reason the FBI doesn't tell the president every secret.


True, and the elders needed to know Tsunade's whereabouts. They had to elect a new Hokage as soon as possible. Otherwise, neighboring villages would take advantage of the Leaf's time of weakness.



ShinAkuma said:


> Your "point" is fanfiction. There is nothing to address.
> 
> You don't get to make shit up randomly and expect it to be given credibility.


I'm pretty sure you agree that Jiraiya and Hiruzen weren't closely linked when Hiruzen was Hokage for the second time.



ShinAkuma said:


> I'm not sure if your just trolling or simply this ridiculous.
> 
> Why would the Akatsuki go after jin's completely blind? They wouldn't. Obviously they would have intel.


I'll concede here.

But I don't expect the Akatsuki to have much knowledge on Jiraiya if Pain didn't know about his Sage Mode.



ShinAkuma said:


> Why would they need to know about sage mode? It is you who thinks Jiraiya is only powerful due to sage mode. The manga listed him as a powerful and legendary ninja *without* sage mode. His reputation for being very powerful does not require sage mode.


That's not the point. The point is that the Akatsuki did not have full knowledge on Jiraiya if his own student, who happens to be the leader of the organization, was unaware of Sage Mode.

And speaking of this, do you believe Jiraiya can take on Itachi and Kisame at the same time in base?



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi estimated that Jiraiya was powerful enough to kill him. He also happens to be a sannin.


He used his reputation as Sannin as reasoning for Jiraiya giving him trouble.



ShinAkuma said:


> Look you can fanfiction your way through the manga if you like. If it's not obvious to you what Chiyo is talking about then you can insert any nnsensical reason you want. I don't care.


Your point: Kurama needs to be extracted last, which is Itachi's reason for retreating.
What Chiyo said: Tailed Beast extraction takes a lot of time.

They're two completely different things.



ShinAkuma said:


> It wasn't Chiyo who was talking about backup.
> 
> Try to keep up.


My bad, it was Kakashi who said that. But Kakashi hadn't fought Itachi's 30% Clone at that time, so he was as limited as Chiyo when it came to knowledge on the Akatsuki.



ShinAkuma said:


> The extraction of the bijuu is accomplished via the sealing ritual. They are interconnected.


They are, but they're still two separate things. Chiyo was referring to the Sealing Process taking long, not the Nine Tails having to be sealed last.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, hence my point.


How does that translate to him being able to control a ninja who has a chance of running loose with the Nine Tails, though?

And surely the Leaf Village would take action by that time? Remember the Akatsuki didn't start hunting the rest of the Tailed Beasts until 2 and a half years later.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's a shield made from genjutsu...?
> 
> Do you even know what you're reading?


A shield that blocks Genjutsu/mind reading (which is what Inoichi did). Vastly different from casting Genjutsu on somebody, which is what you said Pain would do.


Also, sorry about being rude earlier. I was having a bad day. I hope we can continue this debate with peace.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Dec 9, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> I already said that the groups are legendary, but Itachi and Kisame are ordinary even among them. It's just like Hashirama using the fact he's a Kage as reasoning for him being weaker than Obito.



Ok look, there is nothing indicating they were downplaying each other or that Itachi was basing his opinion on reputation alone. Itachi even considered how the fight would end and never said "according to his rep we would kill each other". That is simply not the case.



> Are you implying the reputation of the Sannin is greater than that of a Mangekyou Sharingan wielder?



Maybe, but there is another option. It is likely that Itachi's MS was not widely known? Look how surprised Kakashi was when Itachi unveiled it.



> True, but reputation was the key factor here.



It may be a factor but the point is Itachi would never rely on reputation to size up his opponent.



> Having to protect a little kid is easily the bigger disadvantage.



Not really. Jiraiya has a huge amount of toad summons that could grab Naruto while they battle.



> Yes, but he was trying to subdue him.



Yes he was, that the *point*. In a situation of capture I agree that Oro's jutsus would get neutralized. However in a situation with killing intent there is no reason why Oro could not kill Itachi.



> What if Itachi is a step ahead? If he has intent to kill, he can go for a blitz.



No, I mean if Oro wants to kill he can literally show up to the fight with Edo's in tow. He doesn't need to wait until the fight to initiate the jutsu.



> Even when he was on his deathbed, Itachi could use Susano'o for long enough to seal Orochimaru's Hydra, then walk up to Sasuke. The amount of time he'd need to keep Susano'o activated would be very small, and it's possible he'd be able to finish the battle before Orochimaru summons the coffins assuming he goes for a blitz. It'd still be a low difficulty win.



Not if the Edo's are already summoned.



> How is it a no limits fallacy?



Accepting the idea that any technique Oro performs is worthless to Itachi requires a no limits fallacy to accept at face value. It implies that there is no scenario in which Oro could be successful, which we know can't be true.



> What I said about Orochimaru had nothing to do with whether he used Edo Tensei or not. The point was Itachi stood up to a Sannin, so there's no reason for him to run away from another one.



There is no reason for Itachi to run from a Sannin based on *reputation alone*. That implies that Itachi made his judgement based on something other than reputation.



> It has more to do with reputation than ability.



You're contradicting yourself. If Itachi knows he can beat a Sannin he would not be worried about a Sannin based on rep. Ergo he wasn't basing his assessment on rep alone.



> And how do you know Itachi wasn't lying?



We don't know if he was lying. Honestly you can't  know if any characters exposition is truth o a lie. However considering that nothing about the capture attempt would change if Itachi said he could defeat Jiraiya implies there was no reason to lie.

Itachi has already avoided killing leaf ninjas less powerful than him in Konoha. (Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai) He could avoid killing Jiraiya as well if he wanted to. He also had another excuse ready to go to leave the scene. (Naruto is not ready)

So saying Jiraiya is too strong doesn't assist with avoiding killing him because he can avoid killing an enemy regardless of their level. Having the excuse that Naruto is not ready eliminates requiring an excuse of a foe who is too strong.  The implication with this knowledge is that this scene is strictly to establish Itachi and Jiraiya as peers as it serves no other purpose.



> Itachi went to the Leaf Village with his own purpose, to pay respects to Hiruzen and see if Sasuke was okay. It was only natural to not attack a comrade. That being said, it is very possible that he wanted to convince Kisame that Jiraiya was stronger than him as an excuse to not have to fight him.



Already covered this. Itachi does not need to give an excuse not to fight when he has other excuses ready, like Naruto lack of progress and the fact that he is tired.



> And even if he truly meant that, we've seen time and time again in the Manga that just because a character has too much confidence/a lack of confidence in what they can do doesn't necessarily speak as a judge of what they really can do. For example, Kisame thought he could take on Guy, but he lost. Kid Sasuke thought he could take Itachi on, but he couldn't. Asuma thought he could take Itachi and Kisame down, but he couldn't.



Overconfidence is usually treated differently than under-confidence. Pretty much 100% of the time when a character praises another for being similar or equal they are correct. When a character claims superiority they are usually proven wrong.



> I'm aware of that, but my point was he doesn't use it in the middle of combat like Kakashi or Itachi. He prefers to use it when he has a large-scale plan set up.



The point is he can use it and has. It is neither difficult or unusual for him to use them so to assume he cannot or wouldn't make little sense. Plus we have only seen Jiraiya unrestricted in one actual fight, so to say how he would or wouldn't use them is just guesswork.



> We've seen high level Shinobi who can't use Shadow Clones. Tsunade, Sasuke, and Obito are such examples.



To be fair we have seen Sasuke use a shadowclone (part 1) he just chooses not to.

Regardless since we have seen Jiraiya use shadowclones this point is invalid.



> But even if Itachi did assume he could use Shadow Clones, he could have merely swung his eyes to the side to set the toad stomach on fire either way. We've already seen he can set large areas on fire with Amaterasu in the fight against Sasuke. If he truly had killing intent, I don't see why he wouldn't do this.



Itavchi does not have the same control over amaterasu that Sauce has. He can't just pinpoint things regardless of the situation. He is also in a confined space with his partner. It would be stupid for him to start setting shit on fire with an unstoppable fire jutsu so close to himself, Naruto and his own partner. He is too smart to risk killing everybody like that. Itachi did exactly what he should have done.



> Any examples?



Yes, Yuuri, who would make zero difference.



> Nowhere.



Ok, so if Itachi doesn't specifically say Akatsuki, and we know that the Akatsuki don't swoop in and help each other, why would you continue to believe that is what he meant?

Again, to interpret Itachi meaning Akatsuki is just another no limits fallacy in order to discredit what Itachi was saying. Plus characters say and do things that make little sense all the time.



> Nowhere,



Exactly.

They do not bail each other out.



> but we've seen they're fine with breaking formation.



To perform solo missions sure, but not to join another group.



> We've seen Hidan and Kakuzu fight together (meaning they're fine with fighting together), and we've seen solo missions as well. This coupled with what Itachi said about backup, I really don't see it as a stretch that he was referring to the Akatsuki. And even a single member could have changed the outcome of the battle, as I believe you would agree with.



Every single member of the Akatsuki died with nobody coming to save them.

EVERY SINGLE MEMBER

But for some reason, in spite of this fact, this is the only time in the entire manga that more members would join up.

It simply does not make sense to assume that and is inconsistent with what the manga has shown us.

You can believe whatever you like, it simply doesn't make sense.



> True, and the elders needed to know Tsunade's whereabouts. They had to elect a new Hokage as soon as possible. Otherwise, neighboring villages would take advantage of the Leaf's time of weakness.



They sure did, but none of that forces the black ops groups to submit such info. At least not at that point since Jiraiya was off to find her on behalf of the elders.



> I'm pretty sure you agree that Jiraiya and Hiruzen weren't closely linked when Hiruzen was Hokage for the second time.



I'm pretty sure they were always close. Just because they weren't hanging out doesn't mean that Jiraiya cut ties. Obviously he did not cut ties because he was still willing to assist with Oro's invasion and find Tsunade for Konoha.



> That's not the point. The point is that the Akatsuki did not have full knowledge on Jiraiya if his own student, who happens to be the leader of the organization, was unaware of Sage Mode.



They don't need full knowldge to know he is dangerous. It is only you who thinks others must be aware of sage mode in order to consider Jiraiya dangerous.

The manga portrayed as a powerful and legendary ninja long before sage mode was revealed. You are simply projecting your own bias against Jiraiya here.



> And speaking of this, do you believe Jiraiya can take on Itachi and Kisame at the same time in base?



It depends how you interpret Itachi's words.

*Itachi*: Yeah... If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least, we'd hurt each other badly...And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome.

Itachi is saying that he would end up dead or badly injured. He doesn't actually say Jiraiya would kill both him and Kisame.



> He used his reputation as Sannin as reasoning for Jiraiya giving him trouble.



Your interpretation. However Itachi doesn't actually say "because Jiraiya is a Sannin".



> Your point: Kurama needs to be extracted last, which is Itachi's reason for retreating.
> What Chiyo said: Tailed Beast extraction takes a lot of time.
> 
> They're two completely different things.



We know now that Kurama must be extracted last, so we know that is what they are talking about.

However let's assume we don't know that. Itachi said; "If it's true about Naruto there's no need to be hasty"

He can be referring to anything there, including the preparation required to extract Kurama. There is no contradiction from what Itachi said and Chiyo.



> My bad, it was Kakashi who said that. But Kakashi hadn't fought Itachi's 30% Clone at that time, so he was as limited as Chiyo when it came to knowledge on the Akatsuki.



Yes he was limited, which is why 2 reasons are given for Naruto not being moved on during the time skip. Both are valid.



> They are, but they're still two separate things. Chiyo was referring to the Sealing Process taking long, not the Nine Tails having to be sealed last.



Actually she was referring to the preparation involved.

Regardless I have addressed this above.



> How does that translate to him being able to control a ninja who has a chance of running loose with the Nine Tails, though?



Samehada prevents Naruto from using Kurama chakra. Itachi can genjutsu him and keep him subdued indefinitely because Naruto is hot garbage at everything at that point, especially breaking genjutsu.



> And surely the Leaf Village would take action by that time? Remember the Akatsuki didn't start hunting the rest of the Tailed Beasts until 2 and a half years later.



I'm sure they would have. That doesn't mean they could ever find them.



> A shield that blocks Genjutsu/mind reading (which is what Inoichi did). Vastly different from casting Genjutsu on somebody, which is what you said Pain would do.



The shield is a Genjutsu that protects his subordinates mind, used by Nagato. There is no reason to think he couldn't do it to others especially if they are incapacitated somehow.

If you don't think it's a possibility I am not going to try and convince you.



> Also, sorry about being rude earlier. I was having a bad day. I hope we can continue this debate with peace.



No problem. Everybody has bad days.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Dec 9, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> My point here is his original body >> 30% Clone in strength.


 Alright, I'll concede on this argument. 


> An Elite Jonin would be Kakashi and Guy.
> 
> And Kisame is definitely stronger than Chiyo or Darui imo, so I'd put him at Mid Kage.
> 
> But it doesn't matter. For the sake of this debate, even being two tiers above Asuma is more than enough to blitz him instead of having an actual fight with him which seemed to be at least mid diff.


 Kakashi and Guy are Kage level though, so how can they be elite Jonin? 

Being two tiers or even three tiers above someone doesn't automatically mean you can blitz them though. That doesn't even make sense, unless Kisame is tiers ahead of Asuma in terms of speed (which he isn't) then he cannot blitz him just because he is much stronger overall. 


> The thought of KCM Naruto being able to make 12 Shadow Clones, all at Kage level, makes no sense. Just saying. Are you telling me he's more than twice as strong as the Gokage? And there are a lot more occasions of his Shadow Clones not being Kage level than them being Kage level (all of them except for the one in the Revived Kage fight were not Kage level, otherwise they would have sweeped the battlefield).


 Their chakra is evenly split between all of the Shadow Clones, so one being Kage level and the rest not being Kage level doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't think that makes him stronger than the Five Kage at all, as all of his clones are weaker than all of the Five Kage. 


> A clone is supposed to be far weaker than the original. You can't compare a KCM clone (if it's not in the Revived Kage fight at least) to a KCM original.


 IIRC Shadow Clones are equal to the user in all areas except for how much chakra they have and how many hits they can endure. That's the whole purpose of the jutsu, if the clones were significantly weaker than the original there'd be little point in creating the clones aside from using them for feints. We've seen that they can use jutsu identical in power to the original too. 


> And KCM Naruto being there is irrelevant. Zetsu fighting Mei, a platoon of fodder, and Chojuro all at the same time is still a feat. And it's Kage level no matter what you say. KCM and his clones are a different story altogether, as they weren't my point to begin with.


 Zetsu was defeated by Chojuro by himself, so unless you think Chojuro is Kage level, Zetsu is not kage level. 


> 1. It clearly did at that time. Either the fight went on for longer and still had the outcome be the same (Itachi defeating him), or that was it and Orochimaru retreated. Either way, that battle alone was enough for Orochimaru to say Itachi was stronger than him. His eye being at "full" power is a vague statement, and no, his eyes soon surpassing Itachi's with a brand new ability  (Choku Tomoe) does not at all mean his base 3T is > Itachi's base 3T. We even saw a deathbed Itachi overpowering 3T Sasuke with Orochimaru absorbed in their battle.
> 2. There is no evidence that Sasuke being given time to rest would allow him to use Susano'o again. From how the event is portrayed, Sasuke simply went blind without being able to use V4.



I'm not saying the fight wasn't physical at all, I'm just saying it was more mental than physical. As for Sasuke, all I'm trying to say is his dojutsu has better hype and feats than Itachi's does even in it's standard form. 
Naruto's statement indicates SM Naruto = MS Sasuke, so logically MS Sasuke is capable of fighting again if he had rest. Itachi whilst in a worse state and even more blind than Sasuke could use V4, so there's no reason why Sasuke wouldn't be able to as well. But we don't agree on this, so agree to disagree. 



> 1. The Rinnegan still contained Six Paths Chakra which gave Obito an amp. I already agreed Obito was referring to a trap. But the point is Obito still thought Itachi was a threat to his operation.
> 2. Why would their own enemies matter if the entire point is them giving Naruto/Sasuke powers to take down *their own *enemies?



The Rinnegan doesn't give amps like that, it doesn't contain enough Six Paths Chakra to do that. It has never been stated nor shown to give the user a boost in physical stats or in any of their jutsu. Obito's ability to contest NTCM Naruto, MS Kakashi, Guy, and TBM Killer B was primarily due to Kamui. So there's no way Itachi can beat him alone, it simply doesn't make any sense. I agree that Itachi was a threat to his operation too, but beating Obito via a trap is still worse than beating Pain in an actual fight. 
I'll just drop this point.



> Doesn't take away from the fact there is no way MS Sasuke while blind is on par with SM Naruto.
> 
> As I said, the composite argument makes a lot more sense. And that's what they were foreshadowing with them saying they need KCM and EMS respectively to fight each other.


Look at what I said earlier.


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## Arles Celes (Dec 9, 2018)

A3 is superior when it comes down to a taijutsu clash due to his crazy durability, speed and Nukite.

But Jiraiya is more versatile and show to be a cunning fighter. And while I do not like the Frog Song gg argument I believe that A3 isn't smart enough(no genius intelligence hype for him) to prevent it or resist it sans knowledge about it. Nor I am sure how he would escape from the Frog Stomach. Amaterasu could burn it down but could Nukite pierce it?

More than that the story seems to hype Jiraiya more than A3 who was a rather minor character despite his power.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mawt (Dec 9, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok look, there is nothing indicating they were downplaying each other or that Itachi was basing his opinion on reputation alone. Itachi even considered how the fight would end and never said "according to his rep we would kill each other". That is simply not the case.


All I'm saying here is that their reputation doesn't speak of their true power, because they are special even among their groups.



ShinAkuma said:


> Maybe, but there is another option. It is likely that Itachi's MS was not widely known? Look how surprised Kakashi was when Itachi unveiled it.


Itachi's reputation as murdering his clan was widely known, however. 



ShinAkuma said:


> It may be a factor but the point is Itachi would never rely on reputation to size up his opponent.


True.



ShinAkuma said:


> Not really. Jiraiya has a huge amount of toad summons that could grab Naruto while they battle.


Itachi can control those boss summons.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes he was, that the *point*. In a situation of capture I agree that Oro's jutsus would get neutralized. However in a situation with killing intent there is no reason why Oro could not kill Itachi.


Itachi is stronger than him, as he said. Edo Tensei wouldn't change the outcome because of the Totsuka Blade.



ShinAkuma said:


> Not if the Edo's are already summoned.


Totsuka Blade would still shut them down.



ShinAkuma said:


> Accepting the idea that any technique Oro performs is worthless to Itachi requires a no limits fallacy to accept at face value. It implies that there is no scenario in which Oro could be successful, which we know can't be true.


I agree.



ShinAkuma said:


> There is no reason for Itachi to run from a Sannin based on *reputation alone*. That implies that Itachi made his judgement based on something other than reputation.


Yes, but reputation was the main factor.

Even if his knowledge on the opponent was a bigger factor, it wouldn't have mattered anyway because the maximum Itachi would have known about Jiraiya would be the full extent of his base arsenal (based on Pain not knowing about Sage Mode), which would still get defeated low diff at max if Itachi and Kisame are fighting against him together. It's statements vs feats, where the latter wins.



ShinAkuma said:


> We don't know if he was lying. Honestly you can't know if any characters exposition is truth o a lie. However considering that nothing about the capture attempt would change if Itachi said he could defeat Jiraiya implies there was no reason to lie.


If Kisame got suspicious in canon where Itachi said Jiraiya was his equal, you'd assume he'd get more suspicious if Itachi would openly state he can defeat Jiraiya.



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi has already avoided killing leaf ninjas less powerful than him in Konoha. (Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai) He could avoid killing Jiraiya as well if he wanted to. He also had another excuse ready to go to leave the scene. (Naruto is not ready)


Exactly.



ShinAkuma said:


> So saying Jiraiya is too strong doesn't assist with avoiding killing him because he can avoid killing an enemy regardless of their level. Having the excuse that Naruto is not ready eliminates requiring an excuse of a foe who is too strong. The implication with this knowledge is that this scene is strictly to establish Itachi and Jiraiya as peers as it serves no other purpose.


But why would Kisame not get suspicious? If Itachi could easily take Naruto without a tough battle, Kisame would likely urge him to defeat Jiraiya and capture Naruto regardless. There would be nothing to lose.



ShinAkuma said:


> Overconfidence is usually treated differently than under-confidence. Pretty much 100% of the time when a character praises another for being similar or equal they are correct. When a character claims superiority they are usually proven wrong.


Can you provide examples?

Naturally, over-confidence would be far more common in a story with a theme of never giving up. The only example of under confidence which is proven wrong that I can think of is Chojuro. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Itavchi does not have the same control over amaterasu that Sauce has. He can't just pinpoint things regardless of the situation. He is also in a confined space with his partner. It would be stupid for him to start setting shit on fire with an unstoppable fire jutsu so close to himself, Naruto and his own partner. He is too smart to risk killing everybody like that. Itachi did exactly what he should have done.


He had enough control over the flames to extinguish them, and he had the ability to set things on fire 360 degrees. Naturally, he could have looked to the other side right after setting Jiraiya on fire.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, Yuuri, who would make zero difference.


He could have been used as a 30% Clone.



ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, so if Itachi doesn't specifically say Akatsuki, and we know that the Akatsuki don't swoop in and help each other, why would you continue to believe that is what he meant?
> 
> Again, to interpret Itachi meaning Akatsuki is just another no limits fallacy in order to discredit what Itachi was saying. Plus characters say and do things that make little sense all the time.


I've been thinking about this lately, and I remembered that when Deidara was recruited into the Akatsuki, there were actually three people there. What are your thoughts on this?



ShinAkuma said:


> They sure did, but none of that forces the black ops groups to submit such info. At least not at that point since Jiraiya was off to find her on behalf of the elders.


Why would they keep crucial information away from the elders? 

And it would have been much easier to get information instead of having Jiraiya search for her.



ShinAkuma said:


> I'm pretty sure they were always close. Just because they weren't hanging out doesn't mean that Jiraiya cut ties. Obviously he did not cut ties because he was still willing to assist with Oro's invasion and find Tsunade for Konoha.


I didn't say they cut ties. I said they weren't as close as they used to be. Which would mean that just because Itachi reported to Hiruzen wouldn't mean he knew much about Jiraiya.



ShinAkuma said:


> They don't need full knowldge to know he is dangerous. It is only you who thinks others must be aware of sage mode in order to consider Jiraiya dangerous.
> 
> The manga portrayed as a powerful and legendary ninja long before sage mode was revealed. You are simply projecting your own bias against Jiraiya here.


I'm not saying Jiraiya isn't dangerous. I'm saying that his base form alone isn't enough to take on two Akatsuki members at the same time, let alone with back up, however small that back up may be.

And I'm not biased against Jiraiya. If I was, I'd be here claiming he'd get one-shotted like Orochimaru. And I have him listed as one of my favorite characters.



ShinAkuma said:


> It depends how you interpret Itachi's words.
> 
> *Itachi*: Yeah... If we faced off, we might end up killing each other. At the very least, we'd hurt each other badly...And even if I had more backup, it probably wouldn't change the outcome.
> 
> Itachi is saying that he would end up dead or badly injured. He doesn't actually say Jiraiya would kill both him and Kisame.


Hurting each other badly or killing each other both mean they're near equal.



ShinAkuma said:


> We know now that Kurama must be extracted last, so we know that is what they are talking about.
> 
> However let's assume we don't know that. Itachi said; "If it's true about Naruto there's no need to be hasty"
> 
> He can be referring to anything there, including the preparation required to extract Kurama. There is no contradiction from what Itachi said and Chiyo.


The contradiction isn't what Chiyo and Itachi (at least in the translation you brought up) said. The contradiction is you switched points. 

Anyway, I don't think the sealing process for the Jinchuriki was a big deal. Pain was a strict leader who forced the Akatsuki to seal the Bijuu, even when they were reluctant (recalled Hidan and Kakuzu, in the middle of a battle).



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes he was limited, which is why 2 reasons are given for Naruto not being moved on during the time skip. Both are valid.


Which are the Sealing Process, something the Akatsuki really has no choice upon.

And Jiraiya, who I still don't understand how the Akatsuki would have a big problem with him. Kakashi's statement even directly implies what I was talking about with the Akatsuki as back up, considering he wasn't even aware of other forms of back up such as Yura. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Actually she was referring to the preparation involved.


The preparation is merely summoning the Gedo Mazo and having the Akatsuki join in as holograms. 



ShinAkuma said:


> The shield is a Genjutsu that protects his subordinates mind, used by Nagato. There is no reason to think he couldn't do it to others especially if they are incapacitated somehow.
> 
> If you don't think it's a possibility I am not going to try and convince you.


No, I'm asking how a Genjutsu shield would mean he can cast Genjutsu, which was your original argument.


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## Mawt (Dec 9, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi and Guy are Kage level though, so how can they be elite Jonin?
> 
> Being two tiers or even three tiers above someone doesn't automatically mean you can blitz them though. That doesn't even make sense, unless Kisame is tiers ahead of Asuma in terms of speed (which he isn't) then he cannot blitz him just because he is much stronger overall.


They weren't Kage level at this point. Even Wind Arc Kakashi supposedly wasn't Kage level, at least according to Jiraiya. 

If Kisame's 30% Chakra Clone alone was able to subdue Team Guy and defeat base Guy in close quarters, I still really doubt Asuma would fare much better. I see no reason for him to ever be capable of using his ability before getting incapacitated. It's just like saying Kakashi would be able to use Kamui on Nagato before getting killed.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Their chakra is evenly split between all of the Shadow Clones, so one being Kage level and the rest not being Kage level doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't think that makes him stronger than the Five Kage at all, as all of his clones are weaker than all of the Five Kage.


That's a contradiction, though. One clone was powerful enough to use both KCM and SM, as well as defeat the Third Raikage (with knowledge) and assist in defeating Muu, yet that clone isn't stronger than even Mei? 

And there are twelve of these clones.



Isaiah13000 said:


> IIRC Shadow Clones are equal to the user in all areas except for how much chakra they have and how many hits they can endure. That's the whole purpose of the jutsu, if the clones were significantly weaker than the original there'd be little point in creating the clones aside from using them for feints. We've seen that they can use jutsu identical in power to the original too.


This argument is identical to what we talked about with Kisame's 30% Chakra Clone.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Zetsu was defeated by Chojuro by himself, so unless you think Chojuro is Kage level, Zetsu is not kage level.


Chojuro was at least Elite Jonin level, and that was Zetsu straight after fighting against Muu and a platoon of other Shinobi. Even Zetsu being Elite Jonin level would prove my point. That would only mean that Zetsu is an Elite Jonin level fighter, and Zetsu is weaker than the rest of the Akatsuki. The rest of the Akatsuki are all Jinchuriki level, so they'd be above Elite Jonin level (most of them are Kage level). Kisame defeated a Jinchuriki who could harm KCM Naruto with little trouble. What he said about his Lava Style being a pain to deal with was likely an exaggeration, considering he had no noticeable injuries at all and wasn't fatigued.



Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm not saying the fight wasn't physical at all, I'm just saying it was more mental than physical. As for Sasuke, all I'm trying to say is his dojutsu has better hype and feats than Itachi's does even in it's standard form.
> 
> Naruto's statement indicates SM Naruto = MS Sasuke, so logically MS Sasuke is capable of fighting again if he had rest. Itachi whilst in a worse state and even more blind than Sasuke could use V4, so there's no reason why Sasuke wouldn't be able to as well. But we don't agree on this, so agree to disagree.


1. How? And even we say for the sake of the argument that Sasuke's Sharingan is stronger than Itachi's, they're still comparable. 
2. Alright. It's probably just a Manga contradiction, or the composite argument takes place here.



Isaiah13000 said:


> The Rinnegan doesn't give amps like that, it doesn't contain enough Six Paths Chakra to do that. It has never been stated nor shown to give the user a boost in physical stats or in any of their jutsu. Obito's ability to contest NTCM Naruto, MS Kakashi, Guy, and TBM Killer B was primarily due to Kamui. So there's no way Itachi can beat him alone, it simply doesn't make any sense. I agree that Itachi was a threat to his operation too, but beating Obito via a trap is still worse than beating Pain in an actual fight.


We've seen that eye transplants also transplant the user's Chakra, so it should give a physical amp. And while Obito used Kamui, he still needed an amp to physically compete with them. Otherwise, Rinnegan Obito and MS Obito would be the exact same thing (bar a hypothetical usage of the Six Paths Technique, and obviously Obito's Jinchuriki). 

And since we're going by feats here, how would Jiraiya defeat Pain? Pain defeated a stronger Sage who also had knowledge on his abilities.


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 9, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> All I'm saying here is that their reputation doesn't speak of their true power, because they are special even among their groups.



Yes but so is Jiraiya.

With that in mind nothing changes.



> Itachi's reputation as murdering his clan was widely known, however.



And so is Jiraiya's reputation as a war hero.



> Itachi can control those boss summons.



Yes but not all of them and not without risk. Remember Itachi has a low chakra pool, he needs to pick his shots.



> Itachi is stronger than him, as he said. Edo Tensei wouldn't change the outcome because of the Totsuka Blade.



Again, using Susanoo drains Itachi significantly. Itachi is capable of sealing Edo, but it costs a great deal to do it. Oro could take Itachi down via attrition by forcing Itachi to use too much MS jutsu.




> Totsuka Blade would still shut them down.



It would, but would also cost 30% of his chakra to do it.

Itachi is not Madara, he cannot spam MS techs.,



> I agree.



Fair enough.



> Yes, but reputation was the main factor.



That's simply your interpretation.

The truth is we don't know how much of a factor reputation was, because Itachi never indicated it.



> Even if his knowledge on the opponent was a bigger factor, it wouldn't have mattered anyway because the maximum Itachi would have known about Jiraiya would be the full extent of his base arsenal (based on Pain not knowing about Sage Mode), which would still get defeated low diff at max if Itachi and Kisame are fighting against him together. It's statements vs feats, where the latter wins.



Jiraiya has a vast array of summons that would be a problem. Also Itachi never said Kisame would die, only himself.

In your opinion Jiraiya could not compete without sage mode, but that isn't a fact, nor is it something that Itachi would necessarily consider.



> If Kisame got suspicious in canon where Itachi said Jiraiya was his equal, you'd assume he'd get more suspicious if Itachi would openly state he can defeat Jiraiya.



Itachi's excuse to not capturing Naruto has nothing to do with the power of his opponent. He could leave Naruto there even if he could destroy Jiraiya.

That's the point.

Jiraiya's power was never the excuse to leave Naruto. Mentioning how powerful Jiraiya is serves no purpose other than to establish how he compares to Itachi.



> But why would Kisame not get suspicious?



Because the excuse if Naruto isn't ready. No need to rush.



> If Itachi could easily take Naruto without a tough battle, Kisame would likely urge him to defeat Jiraiya and capture Naruto regardless. There would be nothing to lose.



They don't need to capture Naruto. Even if Itachi said he was more powerful, Jiraiya summon toad stomach, Itachi uses amaterasu to escape and he is out of gas. At that point he couldn't even try to keep fighting.




> Can you provide examples?



The entire manga is littered with people underestimating Naruto. Do you really need examples?



> He had enough control over the flames to extinguish them,



But not move them. Itachi cannot control the flames like Sauce can. He can ignite them or choose to put them out. He cannot relocate them.



> He could have been used as a 30% Clone.



Shoten is not Itachi or Kisame ability. It's not really an option.




> I've been thinking about this lately, and I remembered that when Deidara was recruited into the Akatsuki, there were actually three people there. What are your thoughts on this?



They are recruiting. It's not a mission.




> Why would they keep crucial information away from the elders?



Why does Danzo? Secrets are secretive for a reason. Politically a leader can't know everything.



> And it would have been much easier to get information instead of having Jiraiya search for her.



Using Jiraiya served multiples purposes. As a comrade he can convince her, plus Jiraiya had no problem finding her.



> I didn't say they cut ties. I said they weren't as close as they used to be.



That's just an assumption. We have no idea how close they were or weren't. Nothing in the manga suggests one way or the other.



> Which would mean that just because Itachi reported to Hiruzen wouldn't mean he knew much about Jiraiya.



He could be aware of pretty much everything except sage mode via Hiruzen.



> I'm not saying Jiraiya isn't dangerous. I'm saying that his base form alone isn't enough to take on two Akatsuki members at the same time, let alone with back up, however small that back up may be.



That's fine, but Itachi disagrees.

Look just because a character says something that might not be 100% true doesn't mean they are lying. They can believe it completely and still be incorrect.

Kisame said he would capture Bee. Sasuke said he would capture Bee. Sasuke said he would kill Naruto. They all believed what they said 100% even though it wasn't _true_.



> And I'm not biased against Jiraiya. If I was, I'd be here claiming he'd get one-shotted like Orochimaru. And I have him listed as one of my favorite characters.



There must be some bias.

Look you can believe what Itachi said was sincere and still think he is wrong.




> Hurting each other badly or killing each other both mean they're near equal.



I think they are.



> The contradiction isn't what Chiyo and Itachi (at least in the translation you brought up) said. The contradiction is you switched points.



It's not a contradiction because I am offering this info as a reader. I am aware of things the characters could not be aware at that time in the story.

From a canon perspective accurate to the time frames involved there is no contradiction from what was said, therefore the point is valid.



> And Jiraiya, who I still don't understand how the Akatsuki would have a big problem with him. Kakashi's statement even directly implies what I was talking about with the Akatsuki as back up, considering he wasn't even aware of other forms of back up such as Yura.



We as the reader do not need to understand all exposition the writer offers us. If Kishi was sincere in what he wrote, we could not force him to be wrong because he can write a fight between the two to go anyway he likes.

I understand that you don't get how it could be, but you not accepting what was told to us does not prevent it from being *true*.



> The preparation is merely summoning the Gedo Mazo and having the Akatsuki join in as holograms.



Post time skip, yes. We do not know if that is all that was required pre-timeskip.



> No, I'm asking how a Genjutsu shield would mean he can cast Genjutsu, which was your original argument.



It's a shield in the guys mind made from a genjutsu. How else would you implant something into a mind if not via genjutsu? Gemjutsu is literally the only way for an outside source to interact with another's mind.[/quote]

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mawt (Dec 10, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes but so is Jiraiya.
> 
> With that in mind nothing changes.


There's nothing that makes Jiraiya stand out from the other Sannin. He has Sage Mode, Tsunade has Byakugou, and Orochimaru has his Hydra. They're all on a similar level of power.



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes but not all of them and not without risk. Remember Itachi has a low chakra pool, he needs to pick his shots.


The Mangekyou Sharingan is hyped to be able to control the Nine Tails, and the only toad Itachi needs to control is the one holding Naruto.



ShinAkuma said:


> Again, using Susanoo drains Itachi significantly. Itachi is capable of sealing Edo, but it costs a great deal to do it. Oro could take Itachi down via attrition by forcing Itachi to use too much MS jutsu.


Itachi, while on his deathbed, could still use Susano'o for a long enough to seal Orochimaru in his Hydra Form and walk up to Sasuke. While it would drain Itachi, it shouldn't be life threatening, and Orochimaru should not be able to outlast him.



ShinAkuma said:


> That's simply your interpretation.
> 
> The truth is we don't know how much of a factor reputation was, because Itachi never indicated it.


Itachi didn't, but Kisame did. And while Kisame likely didn't know about Itachi's true power, he ought to have had a general idea of his power with the Mangekyou Sharingan. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Jiraiya has a vast array of summons that would be a problem. Also Itachi never said Kisame would die, only himself.
> 
> In your opinion Jiraiya could not compete without sage mode, but that isn't a fact, nor is it something that Itachi would necessarily consider.


He does have summons, which Itachi can control.

What Itachi said implies the battle wouldn't be easy, and could only be won with extreme difficulty. Kisame would definitely be injured greatly by the end of the fight, going by what Itachi said. 

If we go by shown feats, Jiraiya not being able to compete with Itachi and Kisame at the same time in base is a fact. By statements, it depends on how you interpret what was said about him by Itachi, as you said.



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi's excuse to not capturing Naruto has nothing to do with the power of his opponent. He could leave Naruto there even if he could destroy Jiraiya.
> 
> That's the point.
> 
> Jiraiya's power was never the excuse to leave Naruto. Mentioning how powerful Jiraiya is serves no purpose other than to establish how he compares to Itachi.


It does serve a purpose. What matters isn't the excuse itself, but the legitimacy it holds to Kisame. If Kisame became suspicious in canon, he would only be even more suspicious if Itachi left saying he can defeat Jiraiya. 



ShinAkuma said:


> They don't need to capture Naruto. Even if Itachi said he was more powerful, Jiraiya summon toad stomach, Itachi uses amaterasu to escape and he is out of gas. At that point he couldn't even try to keep fighting.


He could, going by later feats performed by Itachi on his deathbed.



ShinAkuma said:


> The entire manga is littered with people underestimating Naruto. Do you really need examples?


I'm asking for people underestimating themselves, not their opponents. Underestimating their opponents is practically the same as overestimating themselves.

And besides, the people who underestimated Naruto were proven wrong in the end. 



ShinAkuma said:


> But not move them. Itachi cannot control the flames like Sauce can. He can ignite them or choose to put them out. He cannot relocate them.


I'm not saying he'd control them. I'm saying he'd move his head and set a new place on fire. Over , he did just that.



ShinAkuma said:


> Shoten is not Itachi or Kisame ability. It's not really an option.


It counts as backup, does it not?



ShinAkuma said:


> They are recruiting. It's not a mission.


They had to fight in order to recruit Deidara.



ShinAkuma said:


> Why does Danzo? Secrets are secretive for a reason. Politically a leader can't know everything.


Yes, but there is no harm in telling the elders about Tsunade's position, especially in a time of need. Danzo kept secrets because he planned to overthrow the village, become Hokage, and obtain peace in his own way. The other elders had no such plan in mind.



ShinAkuma said:


> Using Jiraiya served multiples purposes. As a comrade he can convince her, plus Jiraiya had no problem finding her.


They could easily do both. Tell Jiraiya about her location, and send him there to convince her.



ShinAkuma said:


> That's just an assumption. We have no idea how close they were or weren't. Nothing in the manga suggests one way or the other.


In that case, you can't use it as an argument for Itachi knowing much about Jiraiya. 



ShinAkuma said:


> He could be aware of pretty much everything except sage mode via Hiruzen.


Sure, he could be. There's no point in debating this any further, as I've already given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed Itachi knew everything about Jiraiya bar Sage Mode.



ShinAkuma said:


> That's fine, but Itachi disagrees.
> 
> Look just because a character says something that might not be 100% true doesn't mean they are lying. They can believe it completely and still be incorrect.
> 
> Kisame said he would capture Bee. Sasuke said he would capture Bee. Sasuke said he would kill Naruto. They all believed what they said 100% even though it wasn't _true_.


We don't know whether Itachi is lying, is being truthful, or what. That's the entire point of this debate, to see which one is more likely and why. 

But if this debate is even a thing, it would prove the statement isn't credible enough to be used as concrete evidence for Jiraiya being superior or equal to Itachi, although I'm sure you have other arguments for that.



ShinAkuma said:


> There must be some bias.
> 
> Look you can believe what Itachi said was sincere and still think he is wrong.


Well, you're objectively wrong here. I don't have any bias against Jiraiya. I'd gladly accept he's stronger than or equal to Itachi if you were to prove it to me. I'm open to change my mind.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's not a contradiction because I am offering this info as a reader. I am aware of things the characters could not be aware at that time in the story.
> 
> From a canon perspective accurate to the time frames involved there is no contradiction from what was said, therefore the point is valid.


Your original point was that what Chiyo said reinforces what Itachi said about the Nine Tails. I'm merely correcting that.

Yes, you can offer info as a reader, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Chiyo's statement reinforcing Itachi's is still wrong. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Post time skip, yes. We do not know if that is all that was required pre-timeskip.


What else could it be?

The preparation for sealing the Tailed Beasts could simply be referring to the Sealing Process, as it's still preparation regardless. And that's the only thing that makes sense. If there was some large preparation to do beforehand, it would have been mentioned somewhere along the line.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's a shield in the guys mind made from a genjutsu. How else would you implant something into a mind if not via genjutsu? Gemjutsu is literally the only way for an outside source to interact with another's mind.


[/QUOTE]
The Yamanaka Clan's Mind Transfer Jutsu is classified as Ninjutsu, and so is Genjutsu Protect. I can't find a scan, but it's stated in the wiki, which is most likely accurate here.


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2018)

King Ramirez said:


> A3 > WA SM Naruto >>> SM Jiraiya


How did you come to the conclusion that A3 is stronger than WA SM Naruto
when he lost to SM Naruto (a clone)? 

---------

OT:
imo Jiraiya is stronger than all the Kages except for Naruto, Minato, and Hashirama. 
He defeats any other Kage.


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## Mawt (Dec 10, 2018)

Hussain said:


> How did you come to the conclusion that A3 is stronger than WA SM Naruto
> when he lost to SM Naruto (a clone)?
> 
> ---------
> ...


Jiraiya = Tobirama > Hashirama


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## Trojan (Dec 10, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Jiraiya = Tobirama > Hashirama


Not sure what is this supposed to mean, but ok...


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## Sapherosth (Dec 11, 2018)

ShinAkuma said:


> → sauce
> 
> They basically confirm both things Itachi said - Jiraiya too stronk and Naruto can wait.




On the EXACT same page, Chiyo contradicted Kakashi.....

Furthermore, there's a scan of Itachi TELLING Kisame the reason why they're not capturing Naruto now. It literally had nothing to do with Jiraiya.


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 11, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> There's nothing that makes Jiraiya stand out from the other Sannin. He has Sage Mode, Tsunade has Byakugou, and Orochimaru has his Hydra. They're all on a similar level of power.



No, I mean the Jiraiya is special among his group (to find the child of destiny) as well and his rep doesn't speak of his true power as well.



> The Mangekyou Sharingan is hyped to be able to control the Nine Tails, and the only toad Itachi needs to control is the one holding Naruto.



Sure, but control isn't free and he is fighting Jiraiya during this time. Itachi doesn't get to do whatever he wants. There is no easy or certain answer to stop Jiraiya from summoning toads and protecting Naruto with them, which is the point.




> Itachi, while on his deathbed,



Due to overuse of MS techniques.

Do you understand what attrition is?



> Itachi didn't, but Kisame did. And while Kisame likely didn't know about Itachi's true power, he ought to have had a general idea of his power with the Mangekyou Sharingan.



Maybe.



> He does have summons, which Itachi can control.



Not for free though.



> What Itachi said implies the battle wouldn't be easy, and could only be won with extreme difficulty. Kisame would definitely be injured greatly by the end of the fight, going by what Itachi said.



This is not relevant to the point.

We do not know how much of Itachi's estimation was based on reputation. You can speculate, but it is only speculation.



> If we go by shown feats, Jiraiya not being able to compete with Itachi and Kisame at the same time in base is a fact. By statements, it depends on how you interpret what was said about him by Itachi, as you said.



Jiraiya used one technique that forced them to retreat and Itachi to us Amaterasu to escape. That itself seems like a feat to me.



> It does serve a purpose. What matters isn't the excuse itself, but the legitimacy it holds to Kisame.



Obviously Naruto being unready holds all the legitimacy with Kisame because they didn't come back for Naruto for over 2 years.



> If Kisame became suspicious in canon, he would only be even more suspicious if Itachi left saying he can defeat Jiraiya.



Jiraiya's power level was never the reason to leave Naruto, so how could it cause *any* suspicion? It wouldn't. If they killed Jiraiya Naruto would still *not be ready*.

Jiraiya's power level has nothing to do with Itachi's excuse to leave Naruto for over 2 years. There is nothing for Kisame to be "suspicious" about because they aren't taking Naruto anyway.




> He could, going by later feats performed by Itachi on his deathbed.



Itachi said that he and Jiraiya would die in a battle. You say you don't believe it. When I point out that Itachi couldn't continue fighting you counter by saying Itachi could if he is WILLING TO DIE.

Your own argument confirms what Itachi said about dying against Jiraiya.



> I'm asking for people underestimating themselves, not their opponents.



Sure, Hashirama and JJ Obito.



> Underestimating their opponents is practically the same as overestimating themselves.



There are the same, but it's not what is being discussed.



> And besides, the people who underestimated Naruto were proven wrong in the end.



I know, that was the *POINT*

I'm not even sure you understand the debate at this point. Your original point conflated lack of confidence and overconfidence as the same thing, which they are not. Overconfidence is almost universally incorrect in this manga which is proven via Naruto.



> I'm not saying he'd control them. I'm saying he'd move his head and set a new place on fire. Over , he did just that.



That's a straight line dude.



> It counts as backup, does it not?



Sure, but neither Itachi or Kisame can initiate the shoten jutsu, so likely not an option.



> They had to fight in order to recruit Deidara.



They did, but it wasn't a mission.

Again you conflate the idea that the Akatsuki can gather together as being the same as them backing each other up. They are not the same thing considering we have never seen Akatsuki members back each other up during battle even when death was likely.



> Yes, but there is no harm in telling the elders about Tsunade's position, especially in a time of need. Danzo kept secrets because he planned to overthrow the village, become Hokage, and obtain peace in his own way. The other elders had no such plan in mind.



They already has a plan via Jiraiya. They don't need to do more at that time.



> They could easily do both. Tell Jiraiya about her location, and send him there to convince her.



Jiraiya had no problem finding her.



> In that case, you can't use it as an argument for Itachi knowing much about Jiraiya.



I know, that's the *point*. You can't argue it *either way* invalidating your original argument.



> Sure, he could be. There's no point in debating this any further, as I've already given you the benefit of the doubt and assumed Itachi knew everything about Jiraiya bar Sage Mode.



Ok.



> We don't know whether Itachi is lying, is being truthful, or what. That's the entire point of this debate, to see which one is more likely and why.
> 
> But if this debate is even a thing, it would prove the statement isn't credible enough to be used as concrete evidence for Jiraiya being superior or equal to Itachi, although I'm sure you have other arguments for that.



It's not credible enough to _you._

This is a manga about Naruto. Kishi cannot always show us exactly everything he tells us via exposition about non main characters. Because of this people can find lack of credibility in virtually anything said or shown, but it doesn't make it *untrue*.



> Well, you're objectively wrong here. I don't have any bias against Jiraiya. I'd gladly accept he's stronger than or equal to Itachi if you were to prove it to me. I'm open to change my mind.



I suppose, but if the author tells you they are equal and you don't buy it, I don't think there is much else that could shift your opinion.



> Your original point was that what Chiyo said reinforces what Itachi said about the Nine Tails. I'm merely correcting that.



There is no contradiction between Chiyo's and Itachi's statement.



> What else could it be?



Who knows? Alot of time has passed.



> The Yamanaka Clan's Mind Transfer Jutsu is classified as Ninjutsu, and so is Genjutsu Protect. I can't find a scan, but it's stated in the wiki, which is most likely accurate here.



Genjutsu protect has not been classified in manga or data book yet. However this wiki page classifies it as genjutsu.

often possess only a scant understanding of how the technology they're questioning actually works



Sapherosth said:


> On the EXACT same page, Chiyo contradicted Kakashi.....



I mentioned that Chiyo thought it was the sealing ritual. It is the point - it reinforces what was said by Itachi in part 1.



> Furthermore, there's a scan of Itachi TELLING Kisame the reason why they're not capturing Naruto now. It literally had nothing to do with Jiraiya.



I know, that's the point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 11, 2018)

I seriously doubt Jiraiya can defeat A3 in a battle. He's got A4's speed (V1, not V2), he has the Nuke and a super tank body which was able to tank FRS without any issues. FRS obliterates and it only gave him the equivalent of minor scratches. 

What can Jiraiya do? 

On one hand, Jiraiya almost died to KN4, not even Kurama's full strength. On the other hand, A3 stalemated Gyuuki who was using his full power. Bear in mind that a Naruto that surpassed Jiraiya is the one that defeated A3 using SM mastery which exceeds that of Jiraiya's. 

People will make up thinks like Gyuuki can't use his own powers or that we know for a fact base Jiraiya held back everything so it isn't a big deal that he almost died. The fact is this, going by everything we have, without any biases interfering: A3 would defeat Jiraiya in combat. 



Hussain said:


> Not sure what is this supposed to mean, but ok...



You know, Hussain. You know.


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## Mawt (Dec 31, 2018)

Sorry for late reply.



ShinAkuma said:


> No, I mean the Jiraiya is special among his group (to find the child of destiny) as well and his rep doesn't speak of his true power as well.


Finding the Child of Prophecy doesn't have to do with power. 

As far as power goes, they're on a similar level. You agree with me.

If all the Sannin are at the same level, then the Sannin reputation does speak of their true power. The only exception is Orochimaru with the addition of Edo Tensei.



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure, but control isn't free and he is fighting Jiraiya during this time. Itachi doesn't get to do whatever he wants. There is no easy or certain answer to stop Jiraiya from summoning toads and protecting Naruto with them, which is the point.


Itachi can let Kisame stall Jiraiya while controlling the toad. And Itachi is easily capable of multitasking as well, especially using Clone Feints. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Due to overuse of MS techniques.
> 
> Do you understand what attrition is?


No, due to sickness. 





ShinAkuma said:


> Not for free though.


Elaborate.



ShinAkuma said:


> This is not relevant to the point.
> 
> We do not know how much of Itachi's estimation was based on reputation. You can speculate, but it is only speculation.


You said that, based on Itachi's statement, only he would die (not Kisame). I merely elaborated on that. No speculation here.



ShinAkuma said:


> Jiraiya used one technique that forced them to retreat and Itachi to us Amaterasu to escape. That itself seems like a feat to me.


You yourself have stated that the retreat had nothing to do with Jiraiya. 

Forcing Itachi to use Amaterasu once doesn't mean he can compete or win in base. The duo have an answer for everything Jiraiya has, as well as the benefit of not having to protect kids.



ShinAkuma said:


> Obviously Naruto being unready holds all the legitimacy with Kisame because they didn't come back for Naruto for over 2 years.


Then Jiraiya isn't a factor in their retreat.



ShinAkuma said:


> Jiraiya's power level was never the reason to leave Naruto, so how could it cause any suspicion? It wouldn't. If they killed Jiraiya Naruto would still not be ready.
> 
> *Jiraiya's power level has nothing to do with Itachi's excuse to leave Naruto for over 2 years.* There is nothing for Kisame to be "suspicious" about because they aren't taking Naruto anyway.





ShinAkuma said:


> *Jiraiya used one technique that forced them to retreat*


How do these two work together?



ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi said that he and Jiraiya would die in a battle. You say you don't believe it. When I point out that Itachi couldn't continue fighting you counter by saying Itachi could if he is WILLING TO DIE.
> 
> Your own argument confirms what Itachi said about dying against Jiraiya.


It doesn't, because we have differing opinions on what forces Itachi into his deathbed. It's a battle of stamina, where we have different views. 

All of this is ignoring Kisame and the fact that Samehada can transfer Kisame's Chakra into Itachi, by the way.



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure, Hashirama and JJ Obito.


Yes, an example of underestimation which is proven true. I know those exist, but it doesn't mean all of them are true.

Examples of ones that are false include Naruto saying that he would stalemate blind Sasuke, or Obito saying he had no power, or Pain saying Jiraiya could defeat him with full knowledge.



ShinAkuma said:


> I know, that was the *POINT*
> 
> I'm not even sure you understand the debate at this point. Your original point conflated lack of confidence and overconfidence as the same thing, which they are not. Overconfidence is almost universally incorrect in this manga which is proven via Naruto.


Yes, that's the point. I originally asked for cases of people underestimating themselves. You responded with people overestimating themselves/underestimating another (Naruto).



ShinAkuma said:


> That's a straight line dude.


Then he produces more flames and moves them horizontally onto Sasuke. 

If Itachi were to use Amaterasu on Jiraiya and find out he was a clone all along, he could have moved his head to the other direction to set the stomach on fire.



ShinAkuma said:


> They did, but it wasn't a mission.
> 
> Again you conflate the idea that the Akatsuki can gather together as being the same as them backing each other up. They are not the same thing considering we have never seen Akatsuki members back each other up during battle even when death was likely.


Kakuzu and Hidan fought together. 

And the fact that three Akatsuki members were there still proves my points. They were together in a situation they were fighting an opponent. 

Obviously the Manga has no instances where multiple Akatsuki members have fought somebody in a mission, because it's not something they can do. In order for Itachi's statement to work, the formation would have to be broken. Either that, or he could be referring to some other person like that Jonin from the Sand Village. But in that case, why would Itachi be looking for insufficient backup if he wanted to defeat Jiraiya? Wouldn't he only naturally think of another Akatsuki?



ShinAkuma said:


> They already has a plan via Jiraiya. They don't need to do more at that time.





ShinAkuma said:


> Jiraiya had no problem finding her.


The elders had no clue how difficult it would be to find Tsunade. Common sense would dictate to give him the location if it was available.



ShinAkuma said:


> I know, that's the *point*. You can't argue it *either way* invalidating your original argument.


Agreed.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's not credible enough to _you._
> 
> This is a manga about Naruto. Kishi cannot always show us exactly everything he tells us via exposition about non main characters. Because of this people can find lack of credibility in virtually anything said or shown, but it doesn't make it *untrue*.


It's not credible to be used as an argument for either side if this debate exists. Itachi can be truthful and be correct, truthful and be wrong, lying and be correct, and lying and be wrong. 

It's down to subjectivity, with the rest of the Manga (feats, statements, and hype) as evidence. 



ShinAkuma said:


> I suppose, but if the author tells you they are equal and you don't buy it, I don't think there is much else that could shift your opinion.


If the author were to say it, I'd agree. 

But since the one saying it here is Itachi himself, who's an in-universe character who possesses limited knowledge and could very well be untruthful here due to his job as a spy, that would mean I take the statement with a grain of salt. And going by what I've seen in the rest of the Manga, I've come to the conclusion Itachi wins.



ShinAkuma said:


> There is no contradiction between Chiyo's and Itachi's statement.


All of it depends on how you interpret Itachi's statement. He implies it has to do with the Nine Tails being sealed last, but Chiyo seems to be talking about general Tailed Beast sealing.



ShinAkuma said:


> Genjutsu protect has not been classified in manga or data book yet. However this wiki page classifies it as genjutsu.
> 
> often possess only a scant understanding of how the technology they're questioning actually works


The wiki classifies it as Ninjutsu. It likely has gotten its information from the databook, which further supports it by not having Nagato listed as a Yin Release user.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Dec 31, 2018)

Still Jiraiya


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## Esano (Dec 31, 2018)

Wait. So you guys think Chakra Rods and Sage Jiraya Rasengan are Bjuu dama level?


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## ShinAkuma (Dec 31, 2018)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Sorry for late reply.
> 
> 
> Finding the Child of Prophecy doesn't have to do with power.
> ...



The rep does not indicate his true power because his sage mode was not commonly known. Your premise is that Itachi and Kisame are more powerful than their rep would indicate. So is Jiraiya. In that regard he matches them.

Also it was Kisame and Itachi who felt Jiraiya's rep was above own and they are both aware of what they have to offer beyond their rep. In their own estimation Jiraiya's rep exceeded their abilities.




> Itachi can let Kisame stall Jiraiya while controlling the toad. And Itachi is easily capable of multitasking as well, especially using Clone Feints.



He obviously couldn't stall him if he couldn't deal with toad stomach.

Jiraiya uses summons more than most ninjas, he is suited well to fight sharingan because he can always increase his numbers.



> No, due to sickness.



Let me be clear - Itachi can only use 3 maybe 4 MS techs per encounter before he is out of gas. This was true in part 1, this is not unique to Itachi being on his deathbed.




> Elaborate.



Toads are smarter than most summons and have ninjas abilities. They would most likely defend against genjutsu better than mindless summons. Plus Jiraiya would have numbers on his side. Itachi cannot simply genjutsu everything in sight with no consequence.



> You said that, based on Itachi's statement, only he would die (not Kisame). I merely elaborated on that. No speculation here.



Sure, but still not relevant.



> You yourself have stated that the retreat had nothing to do with Jiraiya.



No.

Leaving Naruto for a future capture had nothing to do with Jiraiya. Obviously Jiraiya's toad stomach forced the retreat.



> Forcing Itachi to use Amaterasu once doesn't mean he can compete or win in base. The duo have an answer for everything Jiraiya has, as well as the benefit of not having to protect kids.



It's a feat, that's the point.

It's Jiraiya's array of abilities that allows him to compete.




> Then Jiraiya isn't a factor in their retreat.



No. How do you conflate the two.

They were forced to retreat due to Jiraiya. They didn't return due to Naruto not being ready.

Those are two completely different things.



> How do these two work together?



Leaving Naruto for a future capture is due to Naruto's "readiness". That means no matter how things played out, Itachi could always leave Naruto for a future capture. Even if Iruka was Naruto's guardian at this time, Itachi could still pass on capturing Naruto due to this excuse.

Itachi does not need Jiraiya to be more powerful than him in order to leave Naruto. Therefore there is no reason for Itachi to lie about his power level.



> It doesn't, because we have differing opinions on what forces Itachi into his deathbed. It's a battle of stamina, where we have different views.



Itahi's stamina was shit in part 1. It doesn't matter what you think about his deathbed scene, his stamina was always garbage.



> All of this is ignoring Kisame and the fact that Samehada can transfer Kisame's Chakra into Itachi, by the way.



Scans?

Do not conflate transferring chakra to it's wielder as transferring chakra to a 3rd party.

Itachi has never shown the ability to wield Samehada.




> Yes, an example of underestimation which is proven true. I know those exist, but it doesn't mean all of them are true.



You asked for an example and I gave you one. Don't backtrack now.



> Yes, that's the point. I originally asked for cases of people underestimating themselves. You responded with people overestimating themselves/underestimating another (Naruto).



Well you have Hashirama and JJ Obito.



> Then he produces more flames and moves them horizontally onto Sasuke.



It's the same flame, he keeps focusing forward.

here



> If Itachi were to use Amaterasu on Jiraiya and find out he was a clone all along, he could have moved his head to the other direction to set the stomach on fire.



He could possibly do that if he just kept focusing forward. The point is he can't just move the flames where ever he wants post use. Otherwise he would have in that Sasuke fight where the flame kept burning or against Nagato after he pushed the flames away. It looks like once he plants amaterasu he can't move it afterwards. If he expects a clone he could still maintain focus. If he expects the real Jiraiya it is unlikely he could move them afterwards.



> Kakuzu and Hidan fought together.



Well yes, they are a team.

Again, conflating the point.

Other Akatsuki teams don't swoop in to save a team that is in trouble. Otherwise we would have seen it happen. Instead what we got was every single member dying without help from others.



> And the fact that three Akatsuki members were there still proves my points.



No it doesn't.

They can gather and talk, but once in teams they don't fight each others battles. A team can fight with each other, but *another team* will not come and save them. They all died in this manner with no team *EVER* saving another member of the group.

You don't have a point.



> Obviously the Manga has no instances where multiple Akatsuki members have fought somebody in a mission, because it's not something they can do. In order for Itachi's statement to work, the formation would have to be broken. Either that, or he could be referring to some other person like that Jonin from the Sand Village. But in that case, why would Itachi be looking for insufficient backup if he wanted to defeat Jiraiya? Wouldn't he only naturally think of another Akatsuki?



This is just an inversion of a no limits fallacy.

In order to discredit what Itachi said you are willing to believe the most extreme version of what his words *could mean*. Because Itachi wasn't specific he must actually mean the entire Akatsuki. Maybe he was even thinking of Obito and Madara? Why not just throw god in there?

You're making the most nonsensical argument possible.

You claim he means everybody possible by "backup" while simultaneously claiming his lie must also be believable as to not arose Kisame's suspicion? How the fuck would Kisame not be suspicious immediately if Itachi really meant that Jiraiya could defeat every single ninja in the known universe simultaneously?

Obviously the context of what he said did not include the Akatsuki, otherwise Kisame would have been like "WTF, we have 3 immortal guys and the Rinnegan on this team!"

Your argument loses on multiple fronts. Either Itachi was completely lying and meant everybody and Kisame is simply a drooling idiot who will believe anything Itachi tells him. IF THAT IS THE CASE then Itachi would not have to make a believable lie to avoid suspicion because Kisame will accept anything he says, therefore he DOES NOT HAVE TO LIE about what kind of backup he means.



> The elders had no clue how difficult it would be to find Tsunade. Common sense would dictate to give him the location if it was available.



If they have no clue they don't know if it would be easy or hard. They would not need to tip their hand until it was needed.



> It's not credible to be used as an argument for either side if this debate exists. Itachi can be truthful and be correct, truthful and be wrong, lying and be correct, and lying and be wrong.
> 
> It's down to subjectivity, with the rest of the Manga (feats, statements, and hype) as evidence.



The debate exists because you are unwilling to accept what the manga has *told you*. Just because it's unbelievable to you doesn't make it incorrect. And this manga is no stranger to telling us something that is *TRUE* even if the reader logically would not agree. (Itachi is a hero for example)



> If the author were to say it, I'd agree.



He did. This is how the author speaks to the reader.

It is no different than Itachi being labelled a hero. In the Narutoverse Itachi is a hero even though he killed innocent men, women and children.



> But since the one saying it here is Itachi himself, who's an in-universe character who possesses limited knowledge and could very well be untruthful here due to his job as a spy, that would mean I take the statement with a grain of salt. And going by what I've seen in the rest of the Manga, I've come to the conclusion Itachi wins.



Ok, sure. I can accept that you are going to use your discretion when evaluating what the manga has told us.

So my question now is, do you consider a person who murdered innocent men, women and children to be a hero?

Do you apply discretion to that as well?



> All of it depends on how you interpret Itachi's statement. He implies it has to do with the Nine Tails being sealed last, but Chiyo seems to be talking about general Tailed Beast sealing.



It's ambiguous enough on both parts to possibly mean the same thing.



> The wiki classifies it as Ninjutsu. It likely has gotten its information from the databook, which further supports it by not having Nagato listed as a Yin Release user.



I just provided a wiki link that classifies it as genjutsu. So now you have 2 conflicting sources. There is no databook entry for it yet. Repeating yourself doesn't change anything.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jan 1, 2019)

When has Akatsuki ever used fodders for backup? When has Akatsuki ever sent fodders on a S rank mission to capture jinchuriki? When do they even attack in anything but two man teams? Oh, but when they do use fodders, they actually transform them into thirty percent clones, as per canon. You do realize that It was *Nagato* who sent Itachi and Kisame to a weakened Konoha to capture naruto, right? This was even confirmed in Part 2 when Konan asked Pain how Itachi and Kisame were able to infiltrate the village before, meaning they clearly knew they were there. Itachi himself says that it was the upper echelons of Akatsuki (cough cough NAGATO) who sent them and Kisame didn't disagree.  Nagato just didn't know about Itachi's dealings with Obito /his true reason for joining Akatsuki ,as indicated in Chapter 549.  Obito knew the real reason Itachi agreed to the mission.

 As per canon, Pain is the only backup they need to beat Jiraiya. Kisame didn't know how powerful Jiraiya was, because if he did, then he would know that he himself is enough to beat Jiraiya. He thought Jiraiya was some God tier just based on his namesake as a Sannin, so what Itachi said was believable, until Kisame himself saw Jiraiya in action and then asked why a retreat was necessary for Itachi lol. Kisame almost saw through it, until Itachi gave a credible excuse (no rush to capture naruto, he is low on stamina from MS, etc). Itachi's statement of inferiority is debunked, because he has kotoamatsukami in the back that was set to recharge at some point, and he clearly said MORE BACKUP wouldn't change the outcome to any likely degree, which is false since Koto changes the outcome with 100 percent certainty. If you cannot ascertain what Itachi meant by more backup, then you cannot use that as a unfallible, credible statement for Jiraiya's portrayal because depending on where your bias may lie, you can claim that he was talking about the whole Akatsuki or was talking about 1-2 random fodders. The statement clearly has more than one valid interpretation, but some of those interpretations are more valid than others. Paying attention to the context (they are in the middle of Konoha and Jiraiya is the last obstacle they would need to overcome to get naruto), and Itachi is telling Kisame that Itachi cannot take on Jiraiya even if he had more backup, and then that was immediately followed by saying Jiraiya had a weakness, which they then used to lure Jiraiya away so they could get to naruto unimpeded. 

Lmao, I guess that all clearly means that Itachi was so SCARED of Jiraiya that he had no choice but to avoid a direct confrontation if he could; Itachi felt that no amount of backup in addition to Kisame , in the past, present, or future, could close the gap between him and Jiraiya as it would best end in Itachi and Jiraiya both losing their lives (Kisame +Akatsuki+ 1000 fodders dying in the crossfire) as seen when Jiraiya nearly one shotted Itachi (and Kisame who fared much worse) with a basic technique, forcing him to use the amaterasu as purely a defensive measure (sarcasm). Itachi was very clearly lying, his genjutsu, combined with clone feinting which is untraceable to an EMS user and SM Kabuto, alone is enough to one shot Jiraiya. Jiraiya coming back when he did was perfect, as he had a legit reason that exact moment not to capture naruto anymore and he already established that Jiraiya >Itachi+Kisame+ backup. There are two possiblities, Itachi had a backup plan if Jiraiya didn't come back, Itachi predicted Jiraiya would come back. At the end of the day, he cared about protecting Konoha , even if some of the ninja died. Obito's deal was in effect until the day Itachi died. Once he died, Konoha was burned to the ground anyway. It couldn't be avoided forever. Itachi already resolved to die by Sasuke's hand and didn't want to be remembered as a hero by anyone in the first place, he sacrificed everything for the Konoha government and he didn't really owe them anything else. He had Koto yet still reserved it to Sasuke instead of using it on Tobi, and had amaterasu trap for Tobi, but koto was always an option. But Itachi never tried to kill any other Akatsuki members, that wasn't his goal, he entrusted that to Konoha and naruto after stalling for time. 

Therefore, since we know that Pain would solo Part one Jiraiya, Itachi's part one statement loses all credibility, as he clearly was misinforming Kisame.  The fact that Kisame didn't question what Itachi meant by "more backup"  to clarify means he clearly knew who Itachi was referring to and likely agreed with Itachi, but yet he didn't suggest that perhaps they should run away, request backup from Pain, then come back lol. The only logical conclusion of the identity of this  "backup" has to  be other Akatsuki members, as that is their organization lol. You would have to do the grandmother of all kinds of reaching to claim otherwise. 

I mean, the mangaka couldn't be more clear. In his Kobayashi interview, he clearly stated he planned on Itachi being a good guy for the leaf the moment he was introduced. It's obvious. Kurenai couldn't even percieve his speed and neither could the other Jonin. He could have one shot Kurenai with the exploding clone at any time, but instead waited for kakashi to save her and blew up a few seconds late. Kakashi clearly asked why Itachi didn't kill him with Tsykuyomi. Itachi only ordered their deaths when Kakashi revealed intel that no one was supposed to know, as Akatsuki was still laying low about their true missions at the time, that's not something that would fly by Kisame easily. Luckily Guy saved the day, giving Itachi an excuse to retreat. He lured Jiraiya away to protect him and made it seem like he was actively trying to capture naruto to keep up the act, but he more than likely had a backup plan. He got his message across to the elders and reinforced Sasuke's hatred, all while gearing Konoha to be aware of Akatsuki all at the same time. This guy already has shown the ability to plan multiple steps ahead and he knows everything there is to know about Konoha. If Itachi wanted Jiraiya dead, Jiraiya would have been dead. Jiraiya was literally the last line of protection for naruto, and we are talking about a Konoha weakened by Oro's invasion. Nagato sent them at that time for a reason lmao. Catching 12 yr old inexperienced naruto would have been a piece of cake, but Obito and Itachi did not allow for Konoha to be burned to the ground by Pain yet, and Itachi made sure that only he was the one allowed to go and capture naruto with Kisame. And with that in place, Itachi can job  each and every time and intentionally fail to capture the kyuubi and Nagato would be none the wiser. But it didn't come to that, because the nine tails needed to be sealed last anyways so Akatsuki just focused on the other bijuu.


A3 wouldn't last a millisecond against all 6 paths of Pain, but that is purely due to matchup. His limited arsenal is easily countered. Bansho Tenin (which lifts him off the ground, nullifying his speed)+Preta+ soul rip stomps. Chibaku Tensei also stomps.  We have the dude who fought Gyuki to a stalemate and the dude who was regarded a Sannin. I think A3 has better portrayal given his incredible power and hax durability and also amazing speed, and that he would beat Jiraiya more times than not. Jiraiya wouldn't last long against Gyuki imo.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Jan 1, 2019)

They are portrayed differently.
The Sannin were pretty well known, and Jiraiya is pretty much the decider of the fate of the world. If you are talking about strength itself A3's feat of actually dealing damage to a Bijuu is more impressive than anything that Jiraiya did, but the prophecy is more significant overall.
With that out of the way:

Neither have a realistic shot vs Pain, feat-wise. It's just ridiculous to think that. Naruto needed help twice (Hinata, Minato) + Deva nerfed to win it and he seems to be at least on par with Jiraiya. That isn't happening here.
A3 has his hype as well, but we didn't see that fight from what I recall. Has been a while so if I am wrong please let me know to go back to it. Hard to give him that credit in a one on one fight. It would be like Sasori actually conquering a country by himself.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Oh, so you used a scenario where Shima had to shout out loud which led to *Fuksaku *throwing a smoke bomb. Yeah, I'm sure if the Raikage had two 800+ year old toads on his shoulders, he could do that too. Jiraiya used a smoke bomb, she says.
> 
> A3 isn't limited to pure Ninjutsu.  Or have you chosen to forget how fast and physically powerful that the Raikage tend to be? Jiraiya leisurely minces Human Path... you mean like the punch which Human Realm casually blocked.
> Human Realm wouldn't be able to block A3's punch as easily.
> ...



Ah, I see you are still alive and well Munboy. It's been too long.
Someone biased accusing a poster of that same issue is baffling, by the way. You haven't changed much.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2019)

Soul said:


> They are portrayed differently.
> The Sannin were pretty well known, and Jiraiya is pretty much the decider of the fate of the world. If you are talking about strength itself A3's feat of actually dealing damage to a Bijuu is more impressive than anything that Jiraiya did, but the prophecy is more significant overall.
> With that out of the way:
> 
> ...



Few things you're overlooking:
- The prophecy says nothing about Jiraiya's strength. This is the Raikage's battle power vs Jiraiya's.

- The whole point of the Sage training was that Naruto was above Jiraiya, not on par. 

- We've seen/been told of his abilities during the war.: that gives us some picture. If you want to disregard off-panel fights, you can, but just be aware you're choosing to ignore information in the manga to suit a stance that matches your preferences.



> Ah, I see you are still alive and well Munboy. It's been too long.
> Someone biased accusing a poster of that same issue is baffling, by the way. You haven't changed much.



I see you still fail to spot bias and still retain questionable stances.


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## Soul (Jan 3, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Few things you're overlooking:
> - The prophecy says nothing about Jiraiya's strength. This is the Raikage's battle power vs Jiraiya's.



Not overlooking that. I am merely making a comment on it because it's disregarded all the time.



> - The whole point of the Sage training was that Naruto was above Jiraiya, not on par.



So Pain should have even less trouble defeating Jiraiya, right? That's what I was going for.



> - We've seen/been told of his abilities during the war.: that gives us some picture. If you want to disregard off-panel fights, you can, but just be aware you're choosing to ignore information in the manga to suit a stance that matches your preferences.



In that same post you quoted you can see written "we have no actual feats from what I recall". Maybe I need to reread that part.
If A3 does have feats of withstanding an attack from a Bijuu and damaging one, though, I can't see how you believe Jiraiya is stronger.

Sasori conquered a country, why isn't he considered one of the most powerful shinobis alive? Because there is no evidence of what he did. In the Battledome we always go by feats, it's the way it has been for over a decade.



> I see you still fail to spot bias and still retain questionable stances.



Rarely agreed with what you said, but never disliked you.
It's almost nice to see you around.


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## baski (Jan 3, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Gyuki being the second strongest is debatable, and I never said fighting an entire army is minor. I just said it's not as good in comparison.



Why is it debatable? Was it alluded to somewhere?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 3, 2019)

Soul said:


> Not overlooking that. I am merely making a comment on it because it's disregarded all the time.



However, what is the meaningfulness in terms of comparing Jiraiya and the Raikage's strength?



> So Pain should have even less trouble defeating Jiraiya, right? That's what I was going for.



I see. 



> In that same post you quoted you can see written "we have no actual feats from what I recall". Maybe I need to reread that part.
> If A3 does have feats of withstanding an attack from a Bijuu and damaging one, though, I can't see how you believe Jiraiya is stronger.
> 
> Sasori conquered a country, why isn't he considered one of the most powerful shinobis alive? Because there is no evidence of what he did. In the Battledome we always go by feats, it's the way it has been for over a decade.



We know A3 did fight Gyuuki to a draw, that's worth a lot IMO. The only thing is that the fight was off-panel. 

It depends on the country; Jiraiya felt he could take Suna, potentially. And that's a big country. Oro took over the grass country to create the sound IIRC. 

That's sort of changed, re the battledome, mainly since the manga ended. Normally we used feats only with the presumption that the series would show more. With the series ending, we tend to slip portrayal as it necessary to have a complete picture. Though, as with "feats only", you get posters that take a lot of liberties. 



> Rarely agreed with what you said, but never disliked you.
> It's almost nice to see you around.



You too. You missed a lot, we've had super Kisame fans, racist Itachi fans etc.


----------



## Kisame (Jan 4, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Jiraiya felt he could take Suna, potentially.


When was this?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2019)

Soul said:


> A3 has his hype as well, but we didn't see that fight from what I recall. Has been a while so if I am wrong please let me know to go back to it. Hard to give him that credit in a one on one fight. It would be like Sasori actually conquering a country by himself.


He fights KCM Naruto and the kid accomplishes nothing against him


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Jan 4, 2019)

I think the Sandaime Raikage had stronger portrayal thanks to the power inflation the series experienced during the War arc, but if Kishimoto were to have compared the two side by side in the manga, Jiraiya would have been written as the superior of the two.


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## Kagutsutchi (Jan 4, 2019)

Sandaime raikage. Fighting a bijuu to a stalemate, fighting 10,000 ninjas for three whole days, fighting KCM(who was only nerfed in durability), tanking the equivalent of a kryptonite nuke(FRS), being so durable, it's implied he can eat bijuudama's is way better portrayal than whatever jiraiya has.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2019)

Shark said:


> When was this?



Chapter 247. It was more Jiraiya talking about Suna's abilities to stop someone like him entering the village.


----------



## kayz (Jan 4, 2019)

3rd Raikage is portrayed higher in strength and power.

I'm not sure who would win in a fight. Tho the Raikage is more powerful, Jiraiya is a bag of skills and tricks.


----------



## Soul (Jan 4, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> However, what is the meaningfulness in terms of comparing Jiraiya and the Raikage's strength?



It's not, I am just getting old.



> It depends on the country; Jiraiya felt he could take Suna, potentially.



Sasori or Gaara alone could potentially kill Jiraiya, though



> Oro took over the grass country to create the sound IIRC



I guess you are right, maybe the country did put up a lot of resistance.



> That's sort of changed, re the battledome, mainly since the manga ended. Normally we used feats only with the presumption that the series would show more.



How would that make sense? You are discussing fights with what you saw.



> With the series ending, we tend to slip portrayal as it necessary to have a complete picture. Though, as with "feats only", you get posters that take a lot of liberties



The complete picture is everything with saw in the manga.
Not sure how posters would take liberties when everything is on panel. If anything, the hype, off-panel and comments of the characters helps you "take liberties", as you put it.



> You missed a lot, we've had super Kisame fans, racist Itachi fans etc.



Weren't Itachi fans always racists?



WorldsStrongest said:


> He fights KCM Naruto and the kid accomplishes nothing against him



Huh you are right. They why is this a thread? Featwise Jiraiya can't compete with that.
If you want to go by comments and off-panel fights he _might _get close, but even then it's a stretch.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2019)

Soul said:


> Huh you are right. They why is this a thread? Featwise Jiraiya can't compete with that.


"Featwise" isnt an argument most modern Jiraiya fans like to entertain

Especially when the man is a complete "lack thereof" in that category 


Soul said:


> If you want to go by comments and off-panel fights he _might _get close, but even then it's a stretch.


QUITE a stretch...

Its outright stated that A3 faced off against the Gyuki alone and stalemated him...And in that entire fight...Gyuki couldnt even HURT A3, A3 only hurt himself.

Jiraiya overcoming that is sheer fantasy, especially when he got punked by a mere quarter power (at best) V2 Jin


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2019)

Soul said:


> Sasori or Gaara alone could potentially kill Jiraiya, though



After reviewing the content again, Jiraiya was talking about whether the country would be able to stop him from entering undetected. You're right on that, though, if Suna fought Jiraiya as a unit without Gaara, could they kill Jiraiya? Sasori wouldn't be part of Suna in this case. 

Though, be careful, nowadays what you say could be fighting words in a forum where the notion is Jiriaya can stomp the 8 tails with FCD. 



> How would that make sense? You are discussing fights with what you saw.



Yes, but we also use statements to get a better feel for what the power of a jutsu is or what the capabilities of a character is. Its all we can do when some characters haven't been fleshed out enough



> The complete picture is everything with saw in the manga.
> Not sure how posters would take liberties when everything is on panel. If anything, the hype, off-panel and comments of the characters helps you "take liberties", as you put it.



The complete picture is everything we see and read in the manga. You've had posters using on-panel feats to claim things like Kisame having the reflexes of Juubidara (Troyse).



> Weren't Itachi fans always racists?



You haven't heard of Ziggy yet, have you? @The Death & The Strawberry and @Shark


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## Soul (Jan 5, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though, be careful, nowadays what you say could be fighting words in a forum where the notion is Jiriaya can stomp the 8 tails with FCD.



So I did leave at the right time.
Good to know



> Yes, but we also use statements to get a better feel for what the power of a jutsu is or what the capabilities of a character is. Its all we can do when some characters haven't been fleshed out enough



What we do (what I always did) is just say "there are not enough feats for this guy to be fighting in the Battledome", or something among those lines. If he doesn't have enough feats how can he win?



> The complete picture is everything we see and read in the manga. You've had posters using on-panel feats to claim things like Kisame having the reflexes of Juubidara (Troyse).



Well yeah, but ridiculing those posters into oblivion is fairly simple.
This has been a "problem" since the day I joined. We used to deal with it with logic and they usually went away for a while. Things have truly changed around here.



> You haven't heard of Ziggy yet, have you? @The Death & The Strawberry and @Shark



I only know a Shark, might not be the same one.


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## Kisame (Jan 5, 2019)

Soul said:


> I only know a Shark, might not be the same one.


 He's not saying me or @The Death & The Strawberry are racists, he is just tagging us because all three of us find Ziggy hilarious.


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## Soul (Jan 5, 2019)

Who knows man? You could be racist.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2019)

Soul said:


> What we do (what I always did) is just say "there are not enough feats for this guy to be fighting in the Battledome", or something among those lines. If he doesn't have enough feats how can he win?



The implication was that we'd learn more. Though, with the manga being over, no-one wants to exclude a bunch of characters for that reason alone.



> Well yeah, but ridiculing those posters into oblivion is fairly simple.
> This has been a "problem" since the day I joined. We used to deal with it with logic and they usually went away for a while. Things have truly changed around here.



The main change is the manga ended and "feats only" means we ignore a lot of information for characters who will never show capabilities the manga said they had. 



Shark said:


> He's not saying me or @The Death & The Strawberry are racists, he is just tagging us because all three of us find Ziggy hilarious.





Soul said:


> Who knows man? You could be racist.



Nah, you need to see Ziggy. Shark, TD&TS and myself have all bonded over Ziggy.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2019)

Soul said:


> What we do (what I always did) is just say "there are not enough feats for this guy to be fighting in the Battledome", or something among those lines. If he doesn't have enough feats how can he win?



The implication was that we'd learn more. Though, with the manga being over, no-one wants to exclude a bunch of characters for that reason alone.



> Well yeah, but ridiculing those posters into oblivion is fairly simple.
> This has been a "problem" since the day I joined. We used to deal with it with logic and they usually went away for a while. Things have truly changed around here.



The main change is the manga ended and "feats only" means we ignore a lot of information for characters who will never show capabilities the manga said they had. 



Shark said:


> He's not saying me or @The Death & The Strawberry are racists, he is just tagging us because all three of us find Ziggy hilarious.





Soul said:


> Who knows man? You could be racist.



Nah, you need to see Ziggy. Shark, TD&TS and myself have all bonded over Ziggy.


----------



## Mawt (Jan 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> The rep does not indicate his true power because his sage mode was not commonly known.


Nobody knew a majority of the Sannin's powers.

It doesn't stop all the Sannin from being on a similar plane of power, which was my point since the Sannin reputation does speak for the whole group's power accurately. Nobody thinks SM Jiraiya is ahead of Sannin level. The honly outlier here is Oro with Part 2 Edo.



ShinAkuma said:


> Your premise is that Itachi and Kisame are more powerful than their rep would indicate. So is Jiraiya. In that regard he matches them.


My premise uses completely different reasoning from you.



ShinAkuma said:


> Also it was Kisame and Itachi who felt Jiraiya's rep was above own and they are both aware of what they have to offer beyond their rep. In their own estimation Jiraiya's rep exceeded their abilities.


Kisame was directly comparing reputations on panel. Makes no sense for a comparison of abilities and rep to be made. by that same logic, Tsunade would have also been above their abilities due to rep. It's either ability to ability or rep to rep, not a mix



ShinAkuma said:


> He obviously couldn't stall him if he couldn't deal with toad stomach.
> 
> Jiraiya uses summons more than most ninjas, he is suited well to fight sharingan because he can always increase his numbers.


Numbers are irrelevant against overwhelming power. Any summon falls prey to Sharingan Genjutsu.

And he can definitely stall him using Part 2 feats. He could have broken out of the toad stomach using sharks.



ShinAkuma said:


> Let me be clear - Itachi can only use 3 maybe 4 MS techs per encounter before he is out of gas. This was true in part 1, this is not unique to Itachi being on his deathbed.


He wasn't "out of gas" at all. He was panting and sweating, which signifies that the MS strains him, which we know. Not like he was grasping on his knees struggling to breathe lmao.

But if deathbed Itachi could literally use 6 or 7 MS abilities before dying, then Part 1 Itachi isn't capping at 3 or 4. That makes no sense, and there's no evidence.



ShinAkuma said:


> Toads are smarter than most summons and have ninjas abilities. They would most likely defend against genjutsu better than mindless summons. Plus Jiraiya would have numbers on his side. Itachi cannot simply genjutsu everything in sight with no consequence.


Nine Tails also has brains, yet it fell to Genjutsu. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever for Toad Summons to do better against the MS, which could control Kurama.

And going by logic, Itachi can control all toad summons in the battlefield looking at how the MS is hyped to be able to control Kurama. Three boss summons aren't better than that, and we've seen repeatedly it isn't hard to make eye contact with TBs/boss summons.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> Leaving Naruto for a future capture had nothing to do with Jiraiya. Obviously Jiraiya's toad stomach forced the retreat.


Kisame literally says they had no reason to retreat. 



ShinAkuma said:


> It's a feat, that's the point.
> 
> It's Jiraiya's array of abilities that allows him to compete.


He's..not competing with an MS user and Kisame at the same time while protecting two kids lol. 

Even the notion that he "forced" Itachi into using Amaterasu is highly questionable considering Kisame can summon 1000 fucking sharks, but Jiraiya is not competing with Kisame/Itachi at the same time in base. This is universally agreed on... Tell me how he does anything.



ShinAkuma said:


> No. How do you conflate the two.
> 
> They were forced to retreat due to Jiraiya. They didn't return due to Naruto not being ready.
> 
> Those are two completely different things.


Well, they evidently weren't forced. 

And according to the scan that you brought up, Jiraiya was a "reason" for the Akatsuki not going after Naruto. Not being ready wasn't the only one.



ShinAkuma said:


> Itahi's stamina was shit in part 1. It doesn't matter what you think about his deathbed scene, his stamina was always garbage.


Lol it obviously wasn't. I don't know about you, but using the spamming the MS while on your deathbed is pretty damn impressive.



ShinAkuma said:


> Scans?
> 
> Do not conflate transferring chakra to it's wielder as transferring chakra to a 3rd party.
> 
> Itachi has never shown the ability to wield Samehada.




Samehada can pretty much serve exactly like Byakugou. Take Chakra from Kisame, give it to another person.



ShinAkuma said:


> Well you have Hashirama and JJ Obito.


Okay? And I admit there are obviously ones which are proven true.



ShinAkuma said:


> It's the same flame, he keeps focusing forward.
> 
> thing


It's not the same flame. Explain half the forest being on. 



ShinAkuma said:


> He could possibly do that if he just kept focusing forward. The point is he can't just move the flames where ever he wants post use. Otherwise he would have in that Sasuke fight where the flame kept burning or against Nagato after he pushed the flames away. It looks like once he plants amaterasu he can't move it afterwards. If he expects a clone he could still maintain focus. If he expects the real Jiraiya it is unlikely he could move them afterwards.


My point isn't that he moves Amaterasu after it plants. My point is he produces more flames by moving his head.



ShinAkuma said:


> Well yes, they are a team.
> 
> Again, conflating the point.
> 
> Other Akatsuki teams don't swoop in to save a team that is in trouble. Otherwise we would have seen it happen. Instead what we got was every single member dying without help from others.


Because they're across the world... You think the Akatsuki doesn't care about comrades dying?



ShinAkuma said:


> No it doesn't.
> 
> They can gather and talk, but once in teams they don't fight each others battles. A team can fight with each other, but *another team* will not come and save them. They all died in this manner with no team *EVER* saving another member of the group.
> 
> You don't have a point.


But Sasori was literally there right next to Itachi and Kisame when they recruited Deidara. Itachi's talking about a situation where they DO have backup. Now tell me why the actual fuck would he be referring to fodder Hidden Sand Village when he's in a mindset that says to DEFEAT JIRAIYA. 

It being a recruiting mission doesn't affect anything either. They're still fighting. Together. At the same place.

All of this is, by the way, ignoring the fact that with your logic I could make the same exact argument that we've never seen the Hidden Sand fight alongside the Akatsuki.

Quite frankly, the notion that the Akatsuki won't help each other when given a situation to is completely ridiculous and makes no sense. If Itachi and Kisame need back up, they get it..



ShinAkuma said:


> This is just an inversion of a no limits fallacy.
> 
> In order to discredit what Itachi said you are willing to believe the most extreme version of what his words *could mean*.


Let me make this simple for you:

"Even with backup, the result would not change." 

Tell me honestly, why would Itachi be referring to the most fodder of backup if he's coming in a mindset of defeating Jiraiya? This entire debate, you've been avoiding this question.

And no, it's not an NLF. I'm literally just looking at the statement from Itachi's point of view and expanding on it, because the notion Itachi is referring to a fodder is just ridiculous and you know it. 



ShinAkuma said:


> You're making the most nonsensical argument possible.


Lol no. I'm going by a logical interpretation of the quote and explaining why everything Itachi said is nonsense.



ShinAkuma said:


> You claim he means everybody possible by "backup" while simultaneously claiming his lie must also be believable as to not arose Kisame's suspicion? How the fuck would Kisame not be suspicious immediately if Itachi really meant that Jiraiya could defeat every single ninja in the known universe simultaneously?


Which is my entire point. The statement makes no sense.

Going by your same logic, why the fuck wouldn't Kisame be suspicious if Itachi was referring to bringing fodder to a fight against Jiraiya?



ShinAkuma said:


> If they have no clue they don't know if it would be easy or hard. They would not need to tip their hand until it was needed.


The fuck? Why would they go through needless complications when they can easily give this info right away? Why the hell would they even need to hide information about a Sannin from another Sannin? And they were in a shitty situation as well. They needed a new Hokage ASAP, so your point doesn't add up at all.



ShinAkuma said:


> The debate exists because you are unwilling to accept what the manga has *told you*. Just because it's unbelievable to you doesn't make it incorrect. And this manga is no stranger to telling us something that is *TRUE* even if the reader logically would not agree. (Itachi is a hero for example)


The Manga doesn't tell me shit in an objective tone. It's giving a possibility of Itachi being weaker than Jiraiya, by a statement made by Itachi's limited POV character who is working as a spy. How the fuck this gets to you as "the Manga is clearly portraying them as equals/Jiraya slightly stronger" is beyond me. 



ShinAkuma said:


> He did. This is how the author speaks to the reader.
> 
> It is no different than Itachi being labelled a hero. In the Narutoverse Itachi is a hero even though he killed innocent men, women and children.


The author does not speak from a self admitted lying spy who is only a character in his story. 

Itachi being a hero is literally spoonfed to the reader by every character who knew of the background, it's not a shady Part 1 scan of a liar saying they're weaker than someone. This is a false equivalence.



ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, sure. I can accept that you are going to use your discretion when evaluating what the manga has told us.
> 
> So my question now is, do you consider a person who murdered innocent men, women and children to be a hero?
> 
> Do you apply discretion to that as well?


I do, because that's bright as day shit from the author himself. 

Completely different from the latter. Don't think such a big debate would even be around if the answer was obvious.



ShinAkuma said:


> I just provided a wiki link that classifies it as genjutsu. So now you have 2 conflicting sources. There is no databook entry for it yet. Repeating yourself doesn't change anything.


Your post has no links. Quickly go the wiki's page of "Genjutsu Protect." It's classified as a Ninjutsu.

I mentioned the DB as supporting evidence, and it does its job as it doesn't have Nagato listed as a Yin user.


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## ShinAkuma (Jan 15, 2019)

Itachiisinvincible said:


> Nobody knew a majority of the Sannin's powers.



Says who?

They were war heroes. Pretty sure their abilities are well documented.



> It doesn't stop all the Sannin from being on a similar plane of power, which was my point since the Sannin reputation does speak for the whole group's power accurately. Nobody thinks SM Jiraiya is ahead of Sannin level. The honly outlier here is Oro with Part 2 Edo.



The sannin are on a similar power level, but their abilities differ.



> My premise uses completely different reasoning from you.



This doesn't disprove the point.



> Kisame was directly comparing reputations on panel. Makes no sense for a comparison of abilities and rep to be made. by that same logic, Tsunade would have also been above their abilities due to rep. It's either ability to ability or rep to rep, not a mix



Kisame actually said Jiraiya was out of his league before commenting on his rep. Besides reputation is driven by ability. It's a ninjas abilities that create the reputation. (Minato - Yellow Flash, Sharingan- need more than one person, etc)



> Numbers are irrelevant against overwhelming power. Any summon falls prey to Sharingan Genjutsu.



Itachi's power is not overwhelming and multiple opponents is the goto method to fight sharingan.



> And he can definitely stall him using Part 2 feats. He could have broken out of the toad stomach using sharks.



Fanfiction. There's no evidence that sharks could get them out in a reasonable amount of time.



> He wasn't "out of gas" at all.



He admitted he required rest. Out of gas.

V4 bow resemble more a shield



> But if deathbed Itachi could literally use 6 or 7 MS abilities before dying, then Part 1 Itachi isn't capping at 3 or 4. That makes no sense, and there's no evidence.



Itachi used 3 ms jutsus vs Sasuke. If you consider dropping koto off with Naruto that makes 4 and he died.



> Nine Tails also has brains, yet it fell to Genjutsu. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever for Toad Summons to do better against the MS, which could control Kurama.



Tailed beasts aren't ninjas, toads are.

Besides the ability to summon and control 9 tails isn't just genjutsu and something very specific to 9 tails/bijuu.



> And going by logic, Itachi can control all toad summons in the battlefield looking at how the MS is hyped to be able to control Kurama. Three boss summons aren't better than that, and we've seen repeatedly it isn't hard to make eye contact with TBs/boss summons.



Uhh fanfiction. When has Itachi even controlled more than one being?



> Kisame literally says they had no reason to retreat



Of course not, he can fight Jiraiya to the death, as he said.

Itachi didn't say he would lose, just that it would cost him his life.



> He's..not competing with an MS user and Kisame at the same time while protecting two kids lol.



Toad stomach already protected the kids and neutralized Kisame. Your interpretation is contrary to the manga.



> Even the notion that he "forced" Itachi into using Amaterasu is highly questionable



Obviously not since Itachi actually used amaterasu to escape.



> considering Kisame can summon 1000 fucking sharks, but Jiraiya is not competing with Kisame/Itachi at the same time in base. This is universally agreed on... Tell me how he does anything.



I'm sure he could summon 1000 sharks and drown Itachi.



> Well, they evidently weren't forced.



I don't think you understand what "evidently"? means.

Evidence suggests they were forced to retreat.

V4 bow resemble more a shield



> And according to the scan that you brought up, Jiraiya was a "reason" for the Akatsuki not going after Naruto. Not being ready wasn't the only one.



They were both reasons.



> Lol it obviously wasn't. I don't know about you, but using the spamming the MS while on your deathbed is pretty damn impressive.



You level of being impressed doesn't change the fact his stamina was still shitty.




> Samehada can pretty much serve exactly like Byakugou. Take Chakra from Kisame, give it to another person.



I debunked this with my original request.

*Do not conflate transferring chakra to it's wielder as transferring chakra to a 3rd party.*

Samehada was transferring chakra to it's new master. Itachi has never shown the ability to wield Samehada.

Pure fanfiction on your part.



> Okay? And I admit there are obviously ones which are proven true.



Moving along then.



> It's not the same flame. Explain half the forest being on.



Sasuke retreated past flammable trees. Trees caught on fire.



> My point isn't that he moves Amaterasu after it plants. My point is he produces more flames by moving his head.



That's not a thing though. His eye isn't a flamethrower. He casts the jutsu with his eye and the flames go where his eye is focused. He just maintained focus on Sasuke.



> Because they're across the world... You think the Akatsuki doesn't care about comrades dying?



No they don't. They're criminals, not comrades. They aren't a village, they are a team of evil motherfuckers.

I'm not sure how you came up with the idea these guys actually cared about each other beyond their immediate partner.



> But Sasori was literally there right next to Itachi and Kisame when they recruited Deidara.



It's a recruitment mission, not a capture jins or kill enemies mission.



> Itachi's talking about a situation where they DO have backup. Now tell me why the actual fuck would he be referring to fodder Hidden Sand Village when he's in a mindset that says to DEFEAT JIRAIYA.



How many Akatsuki died with no backup even though they could have used it?

Oh yeah, basically fucking ALL OF THEM.

I don't care about your fanfiction version of them being a team of buddies ready to help out at a moments notice. It never happened even once and they had TONS OF OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO.



> All of this is, by the way, ignoring the fact that with your logic I could make the same exact argument that we've never seen the Hidden Sand fight alongside the Akatsuki.



You sure could. The difference is I don't have a problem admitting we can't know what Itachi meant. You NEED him to mean all of the Akatsuki.

Let's go with we don't know and move along.



> Quite frankly, the notion that the Akatsuki won't help each other when given a situation to is completely ridiculous and makes no sense. If Itachi and Kisame need back up, they get it..



Bring it up with Kishi. He let every one of those guys die with no help.



> Let me make this simple for you:
> 
> "Even with backup, the result would not change."
> 
> Tell me honestly, why would Itachi be referring to the most fodder of backup if he's coming in a mindset of defeating Jiraiya? This entire debate, you've been avoiding this question.



I don't know what he means by it.

Unlike you I have no issue accepting that.



> And no, it's not an NLF.



Sure it is. You are simply choosing your unknown quantity to equal all the Akatsuki, but it literally could mean God and the hosts of heaven.



> I'm literally just looking at the statement from Itachi's point of view and expanding on it, because the notion Itachi is referring to a fodder is just ridiculous and you know it.



Probably less ridiculous that him referring to all the Akatsuki while trying to convince Kisame lol



> Lol no. I'm going by a logical interpretation of the quote and explaining why everything Itachi said is nonsense.



It's only nonsense if you take it to literally mean another 10 kage level ninjas.



> Which is my entire point. The statement makes no sense.



Only if you go out of your way to interpret it as no limits.



> Going by your same logic, why the fuck wouldn't Kisame be suspicious if Itachi was referring to bringing fodder to a fight against Jiraiya?



Obviously Itachi telling Kisame that Jiraiya is the most powerful friend of all time and that everybody they know would die fighting him is way fucking more suspicious than bringing random bums to die with him.



> The fuck? Why would they go through needless complications when they can easily give this info right away? Why the hell would they even need to hide information about a Sannin from another Sannin? And they were in a shitty situation as well. They needed a new Hokage ASAP, so your point doesn't add up at all.



Who knows. Intelligence keeps secrets for any reason. I don't really care one way or the other. We don't know for sure, so I'm fine with that.



> The Manga doesn't tell me shit in an objective tone. It's giving a possibility of Itachi being weaker than Jiraiya, by a statement made by Itachi's limited POV character who is working as a spy. How the fuck this gets to you as "the Manga is clearly portraying them as equals/Jiraya slightly stronger" is beyond me.



And here's the problem.

When you are more worried about adding your subjective interpretation over what the manga is spelling out to you, you get stuff like the manga says this but I SAY THIS.

If Itachi was lying about Jiraiya Kishi has another 300 chapters to recant it. He never did. In fact he maintained them as parallel benchmarks and even killed them at the same time.



> The author does not speak from a self admitted lying spy who is only a character in his story.



He speaks through all characters.



> Itachi being a hero is literally spoonfed to the reader by every character who knew of the background, it's not a shady Part 1 scan of a liar saying they're weaker than someone. This is a false equivalence.



What a coincidence that something you agree with is "spoonfed" but something you disagree with is "The author does not speak from a self admitted lying spy who is only a character in his story."

Just a classic double standard.



> I do, because that's bright as day shit from the author himself.



I accept Itachi as a hero because that is what we are told despite it's lack of logic.



> Completely different from the latter. Don't think such a big debate would even be around if the answer was obvious.



Pretty sure a majority consider Itachi and Jiraiya to be on the same tier, just as a majority consider Itachi to be a hero.



> Your post has no links.







> I mentioned the DB as supporting evidence, and it does its job as it doesn't have Nagato listed as a Yin user.



There is no DB entry for it yet unfortunately. This point doesn't  really matter, so until further evidence I will consider it a ninjutsu.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jan 15, 2019)

Two months later it’s still Jiraiya

Reactions: Like 4


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## StarWanderer (Jan 15, 2019)

A3. With or without feats as a part of portrayal.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2019)

Jiraiya 
--As a combatant he is superior and defeats more .shinobi than A3 does 
--In a war he is more valuable asset than the third 
--His intel , ability to infiltrate village, threaten the leader of akatsuki in hos turf f(who himself was said to be powerful enough to keep thugs thart were capturing bijjus under control) 

A3 is just superior because he tanked bijjudama is just hilarious because we have seen those been dealt with even simplest of earth style and second from what i understood gyuki himself wasnot even sure he had fired bijjudama


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## StarWanderer (Jan 16, 2019)

The_Conqueror said:


> Jiraiya
> --As a combatant he is superior and defeats more .shinobi than A3 does
> --In a war he is more valuable asset than the third
> --His intel , ability to infiltrate village, threaten the leader of akatsuki in hos turf f(who himself was said to be powerful enough to keep thugs thart were capturing bijjus under control)
> ...



One of the very few shinobi who could fight a Bijuu head on.

Fought Gyuki to a draw.

Fought a 10k strong shinobi army for 3 days.

Was praised for his jutsus and inhuman physicality more than once. 

I mean, seriously. The Cuck-man has never been portrayed to be *that* powerful. The only thing Cuck-man has on him is Gamarinsho and that jutsu requires time, preperation, and Frogs working together.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 16, 2019)

The_Conqueror said:


> A3 is just superior because he tanked bijjudama is just hilarious because we have seen those been dealt with even simplest of earth style and second from what i understood gyuki himself wasnot even sure he had fired bijjudama



When you have to pretend Gyuuki didn't use his full power or pretend he can't, then it says a lot about the Jiraiya side ITT.


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## Skaddix (Jan 16, 2019)

Wait what what when the fuck has a Bijuudama been dealt with with a simple Earth Jutsu? The things delete mountains so thoroughly there isn't even dust left. A Bijuudama is a nuke with no radioactive fallout.


Also saying Jiriaya did more in fights is kinda disingenuous seeing as A3 had way less panel time then Jiriaya. Two of those conflicts were flashback where we saw snippets or heard about it and the other was against Naruto.


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