# Is Hebi Sasuke a Kage Level Fighter



## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Do you think Hebi Sasuke is a Kage Level Ninja if so why?


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 2, 2014)

No

In my opinion Hebi Sasuke is one of the most overrated characters


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## J★J♥ (Jan 2, 2014)

What do you consider Hebi Sasuke ? The one with orochimaru inside him or post TS Sasuke who fought Yamato ? 
Anyway neither of them is Kage level. And before you bring up Deidara that fight was confirmed bullshit when Blast Element was revealed


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## JiraiyaForever (Jan 2, 2014)

No

In my opinion Hebi Sasuke is one of the most overrated characters


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## Itachі (Jan 2, 2014)

Nope, Jonin level for sure though.

His mastery of Raiton and tactics with use of the CS was very effective.


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## Kyu (Jan 2, 2014)

-CS
-CS2
-Kirin(w/ prep)

On top of being a speedster in her own right, Hebi Sauce was Kage lvl.


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## αce (Jan 2, 2014)

He beat Deidara. And even if you don't accept the outcome of that fight, you still have to accept the fact that Deidara had to suicide to have to fight go even. Unless someone in here is going to tell me that Deidara isn't a kage level fighter then this is pretty obvious. And this is besides the fact that his base sharingan is already strong enough to one shot jounin like shii, who is a kage body guard _and_ a genjutsu specialist. 

There is a giant disparity in strength between the strongest kage's and the weakest, so he'd definitely be on the weak end, but he's still there. Although I don't like the term kage level anyways, since jounin like Gai and Kakashi are kage level too.


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## Dominus (Jan 2, 2014)

Yeah, if people like Hiruzen are Kage-level, then why wouldn't Sasuke be?


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## fior fior (Jan 2, 2014)

> Kakashi



Well, he was chosen for Hokage.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 2, 2014)

Absolutely, especially if people consider Old Hiruzen Kage level (which I do, albeit the very bottom of the barrel). Hebi Sasuke was very fast, very dangerous with Ninjutsu (Chidori Variants, Great Fire Dragons, etc), Snake summons, Genjutsu and strong tactics (which is what made Sasuke vs Deidara such a great fight). On top of that, he had CS and CS2.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Old Hiruzen was stronger than Onoki as stated by the author was able to hold his own against Orochimaru w edo tensei  and was able to save the village, Old Hiruzen  is severely underrated on the forums


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## RedChidori (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes, he beat Deidara, who was seen as a threat by Oonoki, a Kage. Deidara beat Gaara who was a Kage. And Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara, who was obviously a Kage level shinobi. Also, Hebi Sasuke managed to bring Itachi to his limit, albeit it was planned, and he won. So in conclusion, Hebi Sasuke is Kage level, but probably at least low to mid Kage level .


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Old Hiruzen was stronger than Onoki as stated by the author was able to hold his own against Orochimaru w edo tensei  and was able to save the village, Old Hiruzen  is severely underrated on the forums



No. Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the 5 Kages by Kabuto. Not Kishimoto. You should learn the difference between an author's statement and a character statement. A non-serious Orochimaru and two very very weakened edo Kages were still beating the crap out of him and forced him to use Shiki Fujin in order to tie and he still lost that fight. 

Old Hiruzen is much weaker than Hebi Sasuke.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 2, 2014)

If we consider Mei to be the minimum baseline for Kage-level, or even Hiruzen, I'd say Hebi Sasuke is very easily Kage-level. His usage of genjutsu, mastery of Cursed Seal, and incredible destructive power in Kirin (albeit its extensively long prep-time requirement) puts him over the above two, making Sasuke at the very least low-tier in the spectrum of Kage.

I mean, are we really going to call a guy who damn near blitzed Deidara (who kept up with the entirety of Team Gai armless several months previously) *Jonin*-level?


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## fior fior (Jan 2, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If we consider Mei to be the minimum baseline for Kage-level, or even Hiruzen, I'd say Hebi Sasuke is very easily Kage-level. His usage of genjutsu, mastery of Cursed Seal, and incredible destructive power in Kirin (albeit its extensively long prep-time requirement) puts him over the above two, making Sasuke at the very least low-tier in the spectrum of Kage.
> 
> I mean, are we really going to call a guy who damn near blitzed Deidara (who kept up with the entirety of Team Gai armless several months previously) *Jonin*-level?



I concur. Hebi Sasuke is the only character in the series to have ever harmed Itachi, after all.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 2, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is capable of slaughtering a prime Itachi without Susanoo. That could warrant him being Kage level. Though maybe he's on the higher end of Jonin level/lower end of Kage level. When he obtained the MS, he was comfortably on the Kage tier.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> No. Hiruzen was stated to be the strongest of the 5 Kages by Kabuto. Not Kishimoto. You should learn the difference between an author's statement and a character statement. A non-serious Orochimaru and two very very weakened edo Kages were still beating the crap out of him and forced him to use Shiki Fujin in order to tie and he still lost that fight.
> 
> Old Hiruzen is much weaker than Hebi Sasuke.



Thats not how you look at it the authors word is the word of GOD, Kabuto speaks for Kishimoto and his intention was to state Hiruzen is stronger than Onoki, Ei, Gaara/4th Kazekage, Yagura/Mei,

By simply saying Hiruzen was weaker than Orochimaru shouldn't be a knock on him because most shinobi in the narutoverse could defeat Orochimaru w edo tensei matter of fact Hiruzen felt Minato was the only person he felt even stood a chance and shika fujin saved the village something Hebi Sasuke wouldn't be able to achieve in said scenario


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hebi Sasuke is capable of slaughtering a prime Itachi without Susanoo. That could warrant him being Kage level. Though maybe he's on the higher end of Jonin level/lower end of Kage level. When he obtained the MS, he was comfortably on the Kage tier.



Hebi Sasuke won a fight that was being metagamed for a Sick Itachi to lose


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Thats not how you look at it the authors word is the word of GOD, Kabuto speaks for Kishimoto and his intention was to state Hiruzen is stronger than Onoki, Ei, Gaara/4th Kazekage, Yagura/Mei,



Are you Kishimoto? If not, then how can you claim that Kabuto speaks for him? The problem is that there are tons of character statements, but they're not always true. 

And Kabuto didn't even say it confidently as his own statement. He said "It is said that..."

It's worthless hype without feats.



> By simply saying Hiruzen was weaker than Orochimaru shouldn't be a knock on him because most shinobi in the narutoverse could defeat Orochimaru w edo tensei matter of fact Hiruzen felt Minato was the only person he felt even stood a chance and shika fujin saved the village something Hebi Sasuke wouldn't be able to achieve in said scenario



Hebi Sasuke would have won that battle, simply because he has Orochimaru's power too (technically a paradox, but we'll ignore that for the moment). With Hashi and Tobi weakened, a Genjutsu'd Manda would fare much better than Enma and Chidori Variants would pressure Orochimaru much harder than anything Hiruzen had.


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## Cord (Jan 2, 2014)

Easily. Didn't think this would even be up to debate I mean, really? 

Let's have a rundown of his arsenal:


Powerful Sharingan Genjutsu
Jutsu and range versatility (Katons and Raitons)
Ten no Juin
Kuchiyose
Oral rebirth (which he inherited from Orochimaru)
Kirin

That's on top of the enhanced reflexes naturally provided by the Sharingan, speed and stamina. If those still don't make him Kage level, I don't know what does.

He defeated a dangerous Akatsuki member who's comfortably a kage level himself and that's Sasuke without using his most powerful jutsu which was Kirin. And being able to match Itachi in battle (albeit being the weaker of the two) definitely secures him a place in that level.


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## Thunder (Jan 2, 2014)

Obviously, seeing how Kishimoto pitted Hebi Sasuke against established Kage class shinobi (Deidara / sick Itachi) and had him perform well against both of them. 

He's just on the lower end of the scale compared to some others.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Obviously, seeing how Kishimoto pitted Hebi Sasuke against established Kage class shinobi (Deidara / sick Itachi) and had him perform well against both of them.
> 
> He's just on the lower end of the scale compared to some others.



Deidara isn't Kage Level by any stretch of the imagination, and he was thoroughly outclassed by Itachi, Itachi mete gamed the fight for Sasuke to win so judging his skills based upon that fight is point less because we don't know in which instances Itachi was holding back , its just safe to say Itachi on his deathbed was on another tier than Hebi Sauce.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hebi Sasuke won a fight that was being metagamed for a Sick Itachi to lose



Itachi hit him with everything he had, going all out. This is why Itachi didn't use Susanoo. Sickness isn't that significant as it _slightly_ reduced Itachi's speed and didn't impact any aspect of the fight where Sasuke was fighting what he could handle (i.e. it only affected Susanoo performance).

Ergo if you believe Itachi without Susanoo is Kage level, then you should acknowledge Hebi Sasuke as Kage level. Though how high, it depends. Bearing in mind it wasn't till the MS where Sasuke was being pitted against Kage level foes.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

> Are you Kishimoto? If not, then how can you claim that Kabuto speaks for him? The problem is that there are tons of character statements, but they're not always true.
> 
> And Kabuto didn't even say it confidently as his own statement. He said "It is said that..."
> 
> It's worthless hype without feats.



Hype is more important than feats in a story, hype is coming straight from the authors mouth about how strong he's telling the reader a certain character is, feats are many used to substantiate the hype given to said character, for example Rikudo Sennin doesn't have feats but he's the strongest character in the history of the manga , same with characters like Sakumo, Shisui Uchiha , Mito Uzumaki they are powerhouses many because of their hype.




> Hebi Sasuke would have won that battle, simply because he has Orochimaru's power too (technically a paradox, but we'll ignore that for the moment). With Hashi and Tobi weakened, a Genjutsu'd Manda would fare much better than Enma and Chidori Variants would pressure Orochimaru much harder than anything Hiruzen had.



Hebi Sasuke has nothing that could seal the tensei or kill Orochimaru, remember outside of Kirin he's using all of Orochimaru's techniques in which he has significant  knowledge on , we saw how chider variants held up against a weakened Orochimaru on his death bed it didn't do shit to him.


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## richard lewis (Jan 2, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If we consider Mei to be the minimum baseline for Kage-level, or even Hiruzen, I'd say Hebi Sasuke is very easily Kage-level. His usage of genjutsu, mastery of Cursed Seal, and incredible destructive power in Kirin (albeit its extensively long prep-time requirement) puts him over the above two, making Sasuke at the very least low-tier in the spectrum of Kage.
> 
> I mean, are we really going to call a guy who damn near blitzed Deidara (who kept up with the entirety of Team Gai armless several months previously) *Jonin*-level?



I'm not quite convinced hebi sauce could beat Mei, her hidden mist prevents LoS for genjutsu and sasuke can get close to her with acid mist which leave him only with ranged jutsu and his katons are < by suitons. Even against hiruzen I think it would end in a draw more times than not due to shiki fujin and like you said mei and hiruzen are at the bottom of the barrel and sasuke would still struggle against these guys. as for sasuke blitzing deidara if I recall correctly sai pulled off a similar feat against him  so it isn't all that impressive, team gai would have caught up to him eventually hence why he used his suicide jutsu to make them think he was dead.

Any solid kage lvl ninja such as Ei, kakashi, gai, onoki, gaara, trollkage, ect. would absolutely dominate hebi sauce. So to me it depends on how whether he can use karin w/o prep, it appeared as though he was going to use it against team yamato, so if he can then that bumps him up to solid kage lvl if not then he is more so elite jounin lvl *MAYBE* low kage lvl.


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## Dominus (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara isn't Kage Level by any stretch of the imagination, and he was thoroughly outclassed by Itachi, Itachi mete gamed the fight for Sasuke to win so judging his skills based upon that fight is point less because we don't know in which instances Itachi was holding back , its just safe to say Itachi on his deathbed was on another tier than Hebi Sauce.



He beat the Kaze*kage* in the desert, without trying to kill him and while being unprepared.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 2, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> If we consider Mei to be the minimum baseline for Kage-level, or even Hiruzen, I'd say Hebi Sasuke is very easily Kage-level. His usage of genjutsu, mastery of Cursed Seal, and incredible destructive power in Kirin (albeit its extensively long prep-time requirement) puts him over the above two, making Sasuke at the very least low-tier in the spectrum of Kage.
> 
> I mean, are we really going to call a guy who damn near blitzed Deidara (who kept up with the entirety of Team Gai armless several months previously) *Jonin*-level?



A tasty Muffin post I agree with?

This, this, this, this....

Mei is a Kage, and Hebi Sasuke would SHIT on Mei.

The better question is why wouldn't HEBI SASUKE be considered Kage Level? Given his many similarities to current Kakashi. Sasuke established the RAITON VARIANT fighting style. The same fighting style in which Kakashi has adopted.(Wasn't there a thread recently about Raiton variant Sasuke vs. Kakashi?)

In if one were to exactly examine Hebi Sasuke, they gather that current Sasuke is merely an enhanced variation of that Sasuke.(But current Sasuke is also much stronger than Kage level)


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi hit him with everything he had, going all out. This is why Itachi didn't use Susanoo. Sickness isn't that significant as it _slightly_ reduced Itachi's speed and didn't impact any aspect of the fight where Sasuke was fighting what he could handle (i.e. it only affected Susanoo performance).
> 
> Ergo if you believe Itachi without Susanoo is Kage level, then you should acknowledge Hebi Sasuke as Kage level. Though how high, it depends. Bearing in mind it wasn't till the MS where Sasuke was being pitted against Kage level foes.



Sickness was apart of his poor performance but the main factor is that he intended to lose the fight , sure he had to go all out as part of his act, but its quite clear the Itachi we saw as an Edo Tensei fighting like he did against KCM Naruto and Killer Bee and Kabuto would've wiped the floor with Hebi Sasuke, Edo Itachi was dodging Killer Bee's seven sword stance and fighting CQC with KCM Naruto and your telling me he gets hit with a shrunken 

Itachi would be defeated by most Kage level ninja in the manga w/o susanoo, and Sasuke wasn't able to survive against Kage Level foe without using Susanoo.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He beat the Kaze*kage* in the desert, without trying to kill him and while being unprepared.



He also would've been killed by said Kazekage if he opted to crush deidara and not save the village , also Gaara was around the same level as Naruto and Sasuke who weren't Kage level, Gaara was made Kage because of political reasons he wasn't kage level in strength at the time.


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## richard lewis (Jan 2, 2014)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> A tasty Muffin post I agree with?
> 
> This, this, this, this....
> 
> ...



how do you figure this? mei can use hidden mist to break up LoS thus preventing genjutsu and close combat is rendered useless due to acid mist and his ranged katon are beat by her suitons I'd say the two of them are pretty close it would all depend on whether or not sasuke can use kirin w/o obscene amounts of prep.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Sickness was apart of his poor performance but the main factor is that he intended to lose the fight , sure he had to go all out as part of his act, but its quite clear the Itachi we saw as an Edo Tensei fighting like he did against KCM Naruto and Killer Bee and Kabuto would've wiped the floor with Hebi Sasuke, Edo Itachi was dodging Killer Bee's seven sword stance and fighting CQC with KCM Naruto and your telling me he gets hit with a shrunken



That's fine, but the facts are being misrepresented. Yes, sickness was a poor part, but it was minute in the parts Sasuke was being assessed in. Yes, he planned to lose the fight, but he hit Sasuke with what Sasuke could handle and held back what Sasuke couldn't handle. 

Itachi _did_ fight the way he did against Hebi Sasuke when he clashed with Bee and Naruto. The only difference is he probably had the slight speed he lost against Hebi Sasuke. If Itachi dodged the shuriken, the outcome of the fight wouldn't be different. 

Itachi never dodged Bee's seven swords style, he was running away. He wasn't fighting on par with Naruto; Naruto and he were talking whilst clashing. That doesn't indicate a serious fight; we've seen Naruto blitz faster foes than Itachi. Not to mention foes who specialise in CQC. There was a reason Kabuto kept Itachi away from Naruto and had his second strongest Edo take Naruto.



> Itachi would be defeated by most Kage level ninja in the manga w/o susanoo, and Sasuke wasn't able to survive against Kage Level foe without using Susanoo.



That's untrue. As demonstrated, Sasuke beat Deidara without much difficulty- Kage level. Sasuke also managed to wipe the floor with an Itachi variant above the one that fought Kakashi (as he had Amaterasu); that would indicate Kage level.

That would indicate that without Susanoo, Itachi is beneath Hebi Sasuke.


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## Dominus (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> He also would've been killed by said Kazekage if he opted to crush deidara and not save the village , also Gaara was around the same level as Naruto and Sasuke who weren't Kage level, Gaara was made Kage because of political reasons he wasn't kage level in strength at the time.



Saying that a shinobi who became the Kazekage isn't Kage-level. 

I've already explained that Gaara wasn't the only one with a disadvantage, Deidara attacked the village because he didn't want anyone else involved in the fight, he had already planted his exploding clay in Gaara's sand when Gaara smashed his arm before he even attacked the village. Deidara is Kage-level.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Wait a second, how come it's the Itachi haters claiming Hebi Sasuke is Jounin level? Hang on I smell a connection. 

Kirin Sasuke, a weaker Sasuke trashed Team 7 (a team comprising of 3 Jounin fighters and 1 Elite Jounin). The fact that Naruto/Sakura were injured is mitigated by the fact that Sasuke didn't use CS and was toying with them the entire fight. Kakashi and Jiraiya both stated that Kirin Sasuke was very dangerous, may I mention these two were Kage level? Then he gained a boss summon, Orochimaru's regen and a great deal of his power on-top of even greater mastery of his Sharingan.

Then he went on to defeat Deidara who is a solid Kage level and gain praise from Itachi himself. We know he was pretty good speed in base as evidenced by his near blitzing of Deidara, someone who managed to fend off Team Gai without arms (both were weakened), further augmented by CS. Manda and Kirin give him Kage level firepower. Sharingan makes CQC extremely dangerous for most Kage level opponents. He's extremely tactical, has a get out of jail free card with Oral Rebirth and if you really push him to his limits you have to fight a weakened Orochimaru.

Hebi Sasuke is mid-Kage level, he can defeat the likes of Deidara as per canon. Mei , Hiruzen and the 4th Kazekage will lose to him. Even Tsunade who is likely mid-Kage level would lose to him more times then not. I'd say he was a fair chance against the 2nd Mizukage as well.


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## Thunder (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara isn't Kage Level by any stretch of the imagination, and he was thoroughly outclassed by Itachi, Itachi mete gamed the fight for Sasuke to win so judging his skills based upon that fight is point less because we don't know in which instances Itachi was holding back , its just safe to say Itachi on his deathbed was on another tier than Hebi Sauce.



Deidara "defeated" the _Kazekage_ on his home turf. Of course he is. And before you say that incarnation of Gaara isn't a true Kage-level: it's the Kage themselves who determine what Kage-level is. 

And yes, Itachi could've ended the fight sooner if he had relied on the Mangekyō more than he did. But that only gives further credence to my point, as you shouldn't need your _trump card_ to defeat one lesser foe.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> Saying that a shinobi who became the Kazekage isn't Kage-level.
> 
> I've already explained that Gaara wasn't the only one with a disadvantage, Deidara attacked the village because he didn't want anyone else involved in the fight, he had already planted his exploding clay in Gaara's sand when Gaara smashed his arm before he even attacked the village. Deidara is Kage-level.



Baki stated why Gaara was chosen to be Kazekage because the elders could keep an eye on him , 

they were both equally disadvantaged but Gaara couldn't use his greatest advantage which was his terrain , if Gaara was Kage level at the beginning of pt 2 then what is he now that his performance has improved dramatically since then.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2014)

αce said:


> He beat Deidara. And even if you don't accept the outcome of that fight, you still have to accept the fact that Deidara had to suicide to have to fight go even. Unless someone in here is going to tell me that Deidara isn't a kage level fighter then this is pretty obvious. And this is besides the fact that his base sharingan is already strong enough to one shot jounin like shii, who is a kage body guard _and_ a genjutsu specialist.
> 
> There is a giant disparity in strength between the strongest kage's and the weakest, so he'd definitely be on the weak end, but he's still there. Although I don't like the term kage level anyways, since jounin like Gai and Kakashi are kage level too.



I agree with this.  Hebi Sasuke is clearly above most Jonin with CS2, and beat a kage class fighter who also kind of beat an actual kage, but below pretty much all of the kage, as evidenced when 4/5 kage stomped his EMS enhanced version, and Hebi Sasuke vs Rusty Tsunade still garners debate.  So he's on the lowest end of the kage scale.


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## Rocky (Jan 2, 2014)

The Kazekage not being Kage level is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Kages are Kage level by default.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> but below pretty much all of the kage, as evidenced when 4/5 kage stomped his EMS enhanced version, and Hebi Sasuke vs Rusty Tsunade still garners debate.  So he's on the lowest end of the kage scale.




I assume you meant that 3 out of 5 Kage beat up on novice Mangekyou Sasuke, not the EMS version...

And that's being super super _super_ generous to the Kage. The Raikage didn't stomp, but rather nearly lost all of his limbs to Enton. Gaara didn't even fight him, and Mei got matched up against a very worn Sauce. Had he been fresh, she would've been grabbed and crushed; she was way too close to Susano'o to escape its formation. 

Pretty much all of the Kage, except possibly Onoki, would fall to MS Sasuke, and Onoki doesn't have good chances.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I agree with this.  Hebi Sasuke is clearly above most Jonin with CS2, and beat a kage class fighter who also kind of beat an actual kage, but below pretty much all of the kage, as evidenced when *4/5 kage stomped his EMS enhanced version*, and Hebi Sasuke vs Rusty Tsunade still garners debate.  So he's on the lowest end of the kage scale.


Eh, this doesn't sit well with me.

Mei stomped a running on fumes Sasuke, much weaker then Hebi Sasuke.

Onoki stomped a running on fumes Sasuke, much weaker then Hebi Sasuke.

Ei was the only one who took on MS Sasuke and this one didn't have anything but Amaterasu, granted Ei would defeat Hebi Sasuke.

Gaara is debatable I feel.

Hebi and Tsunade is also debatable.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hype is more important than feats in a story, hype is coming straight from the authors mouth about how strong he's telling the reader a certain character is, feats are many used to substantiate the hype given to said character, for example Rikudo Sennin doesn't have feats but he's the strongest character in the history of the manga , same with characters like Sakumo, Shisui Uchiha , Mito Uzumaki they are powerhouses many because of their hype.



You're off your rocker if you think hype is more important than feats here. Character statements are only as reliable as the person saying them. 

Hagoromo, Sakumo, Shisui and Mito are also featless and we have nothing contradicting said statements except Shisui failing to Koto Danzo. 

Hiruzen, on the other hand, has feats that directly contradict that hype. Based on how powerful Oonoki is, if Hiruzen lived up to that hype he would have completely fodderized Orochimaru. And the Databook (Kishi's actual statements) showcases the fact that Hiruzen was skilled, but physically weak and short-winded. So much so that Hiruzen held off on using Shadow Clones until he was certain he was going to die with Shiki Fujin. 

You can't substantiate Hiruzen>Oonoki by a rumor that Hiruzen was the most powerful of them just because he was the Hokage (That's the statement). 



> Hebi Sasuke has nothing that could seal the tensei or kill Orochimaru, remember outside of Kirin he's using all of Orochimaru's techniques in which he has significant  knowledge on , we saw how chider variants held up against a weakened Orochimaru on his death bed it didn't do shit to him.



Didn't do shit to him? More like it forced him to use the white snake poison. Orochimaru can't fight him in Kenjutsu because of Chidori Katana. He can't get close because of Chidori Nagashi. He can't look Sasuke in the eyes because of Shackling Stakes. 

He doesn't have to seal the edos, you know. Only destroy the talismans. Or better yet, not even give him the time to summon them in the first place. Katon the coffins as they come up and burn them


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Kazekage not being Kage level is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Kages are Kage level by default.



It's not as dumb as you think, Kazekage is actually a translation error.  Gaara was only ever called the Kaze in the original Japanese version, but Gaara fandom translations added the "kage", part to the end to make him seem cooler.  The robes and hat are similarly photoshopped off Baki, the true Kazekage, who was replaced by generics found in other chapters.  That's the real reason we haven't seen Baki around since the Sasori Arc.


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## richard lewis (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Wait a second, how come it's the Itachi haters claiming Hebi Sasuke is Jounin level? Hang on I smell a connection.
> 
> Kirin Sasuke, a weaker Sasuke trashed Team 7 (a team comprising of 3 Jounin fighters and 1 Elite Jounin). The fact that Naruto/Sakura were injured is mitigated by the fact that Sasuke didn't use CS and was toying with them the entire fight. Kakashi and Jiraiya both stated that Kirin Sasuke was very dangerous, may I mention these two were Kage level? Then he gained a boss summon, Orochimaru's regen and a great deal of his power on-top of even greater mastery of his Sharingan.
> 
> ...



team yamato consists of 3 jounin lvl fighters:rofl naruto was at best low jounin lvl probably more like high chounin though, sakura was fodder and sai was around the same lvl as naruto. The only jounin lvl ninja there was yamato who btw wasn't in the least bit threatened by sasuke and even he wan't "elite jounin lvl" more so mid lvl jounin.

If you count oro as a part of hebi sasuke's abilities then sure he's kage lvl, but going by sasuke's own abilities he's elite jounin lvl maybe low kage.


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## RedChidori (Jan 2, 2014)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> A tasty Muffin post I agree with?
> 
> This, this, this, this....
> 
> ...



Lol yeah I made that thread "Raiton Variant Duel: Sasuke vs Kakashi" actually. Check it out if you want !


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is extremely overrated on this forum. People saying he can beat any member of the Gokage bar Mei is annoying to me 

Anyway, he's mid-Kage no doubt.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 2, 2014)

> Wait a second, how come it's the Itachi haters claiming Hebi Sasuke is Jounin level? Hang on I smell a connection.
> 
> Kirin Sasuke, a weaker Sasuke trashed Team 7 (a team comprising of 3 Jounin fighters and 1 Elite Jounin). The fact that Naruto/Sakura were injured is mitigated by the fact that Sasuke didn't use CS and was toying with them the entire fight. Kakashi and Jiraiya both stated that Kirin Sasuke was very dangerous, may I mention these two were Kage level? Then he gained a boss summon, Orochimaru's regen and a great deal of his power on-top of even greater mastery of his Sharingan.
> 
> ...


This basically sums up my thoughts on the matter.
(Hebi) Sasuke's  katons and raitons are  partially sage-boosted due to the cursed seal so they're going to beat out elemental ninjutsu of similar scale or level.

His speed is noteworthy and if you are actually going to hit him he can summon a snake to meat shield or activate chidori nagashi. 

If those options are exhausted, he can still straight tank things with cursed seal durability (he outright tanked Itachi's katon, and only had one wing blown off by Deidara's huge C2 attack[1][2]). 

If he does actually take a hit that's fatal, he has one oral rebirth revival.

His staying power is greater than most kages, and it doubles as an offense as the longer he stays alive the greater the chance he nukes you at the end.

@Likes Boss 
If he refrains from direct battle with superior opponents and preps Kirin, I think he has a chance of beating many of the Gokage. Sauce's whole strat against Itachi from the beginning was nuking him with Kirin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I assume you meant that 3 out of 5 Kage beat up on novice Mangekyou Sasuke, not the EMS version...
> 
> And that's being super super _super_ generous to the Kage. The Raikage didn't stomp, but rather nearly lost all of his limbs to Enton. Gaara didn't even fight him, and Mei got matched up against a very worn Sauce. Had he been fresh, she would've been grabbed and crushed; she was way too close to Susano'o to escape its formation.
> 
> Pretty much all of the Kage, except possibly Onoki, would fall to MS Sasuke, and Onoki doesn't have good chances.



Err, yes. Though Sasuke sort of got healed between rounds.

But pretty much all of the kage save Ei are terribly nerfed by an indoor location.  Gaara isn't going to grind of the Samurai's house, Mei has to be really careful with her fuuton, and Onoki has to not delete the house and can't fly around.  

But I pretty much always thought the purpose of that arc was to hype the other kage by showing them beat up fanfavorite Sasuke, and establish his place among the strongest of the strong, with lots of authorial help to keep him from dying against opponents he can barely fight.  But the fact that he fought them at all still puts him at kage class.  'Course I also think Hebi is better overall than Taka until EMS.  He lost stat boosters, psuedo-flight, durability, and oral rebirth regeneration for more lethality, and with chidori, chidori-gatana, and his instant 15 meter+ eiso he really didn't need black fire to kill anyone.



Kyokan said:


> Eh, this doesn't sit well with me.
> 
> Mei stomped a running on fumes Sasuke, much weaker then Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> ...



If you have to debate how many wins/losses someone has against a set ranked class of fighters, they're in that tier, so I'm not mussed.  No one debates P1 Naruto vs Kakashi, for example.  Well, Stategos might, but that's Strategos.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

> That's fine, but the facts are being misrepresented. Yes, sickness was a poor part, but it was minute in the parts Sasuke was being assessed in. Yes, he planned to lose the fight, but he hit Sasuke with what Sasuke could handle and held back what Sasuke couldn't handle.



Just using a jutsu and using a jutsu with killer intent are two totally entirely different things , Obit states this to Sasuke that if Itachi had used his jutsu with intention of killing him he would be dead not that Sasuke was surviving the battle until Itachi died , its the same as sparring you tend to pull your punches to a certain degree





> Itachi _did_ fight the way he did against Hebi Sasuke when he clashed with Bee and Naruto. The only difference is he probably had the slight speed he lost against Hebi Sasuke. If Itachi dodged the shuriken, the outcome of the fight wouldn't be different.



Yeah but it indicated how poorly he was performing going from being hit with a shuriken to being able to duel and hold your own with two of the best CQQ fighters in the manga 



> Itachi never dodged Bee's seven swords style, he was running away. He wasn't fighting on par with Naruto; Naruto and he were talking whilst clashing. That doesn't indicate a serious fight; we've seen Naruto blitz faster foes than Itachi. Not to mention foes who specialise in CQC. There was a reason Kabuto kept Itachi away from Naruto and had his second strongest Edo take Naruto.



He still showed enough speed to be able not to get caught by Bee's seven sword stance, that wasn't a sparring match Itachi and Nagato were trying to capture Naruto, 

How was he keeping Itachi away from Naruto when he specifically states he will use Itachi and Nagato to capture Naruto, and he sends Itachi right to where Naruto is at, if he wanted to keep Itachi away from Naruto he would've sent him to another battlefield 




> That's untrue. As demonstrated, Sasuke beat Deidara without much difficulty- Kage level. Sasuke also managed to wipe the floor with an Itachi variant above the one that fought Kakashi (as he had Amaterasu); that would indicate Kage level.
> 
> That would indicate that without Susanoo, Itachi is beneath Hebi Sasuke.



Deidara isn't Kage Level

Sasuke has never wiped the floor with Itachi

without Susanoo neither Itachi or Sasuke are Kage level


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Who the hell said Sasuke beat Deidar without much difficulty? That's was like the most extreme battle in is life. If it wasn't for him being absolutely lucky and having a raiton advantage, or Manda casually strolling by at the time(such bullshit) then Sasuke would have died a horrible death.


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## Kyu (Jan 2, 2014)

> Hebi Sasuke is extremely overrated on this forum.



Agreed with this.


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## Dominus (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Baki stated why Gaara was chosen to be Kazekage because the elders could keep an eye on him



I don't remember him saying that, but that doesn't mean it was the only reason.



> they were both equally disadvantaged but Gaara couldn't use his greatest advantage which was his terrain



I've already showed you the panel of him using the sand from the desert.



> if Gaara was Kage level at the beginning of pt 2 then what is he now that his performance has improved dramatically since then.



So you're saying that the Kage can't improve during his reign? For example, if Naruto became the Hokage after he defeated Pain, when he gained KCM and BM he became stronger, but he was still Kage-level.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

> You're off your rocker if you think hype is more important than feats here. Character statements are only as reliable as the person saying them.
> 
> Hagoromo, Sakumo, Shisui and Mito are also featless and we have nothing contradicting said statements except Shisui failing to Koto Danzo.
> 
> ...




a statement is more powerful because its coming from the author mouth it is a stamp of approval, feats are often left up to interpretation at times by bias fanboys 

How did his feats contradict his hype , Mei, Onoki,Gaara,Tsunade,Yagura,Ei would be utterly destroyed by pt 1 Orochimaru 

Yeah you mean the datebook that have him a 34.5 only behind Orochimaru,Jiraiya , and Itachi, that gave him a 5 in all categories besides physical stats , he was dehyped only when compared to his Prime incarnation which was stated to be able to wipe the floor with the strongest ninja in pt 1 , his greatest crime isn't being on par with Prime Hiruzen and Orochimaru in pt 1 when most shinobi other than the upper tiers aren't on par with them 



> Didn't do shit to him? More like it forced him to use the white snake poison. Orochimaru can't fight him in Kenjutsu because of Chidori Katana. He can't get close because of Chidori Nagashi. He can't look Sasuke in the eyes because of Shackling Stakes.
> 
> He doesn't have to seal the edos, you know. Only destroy the talismans. Or better yet, not even give him the time to summon them in the first place. Katon the coffins as they come up and burn them



Did chidori variant prove useful in killing Orochimaru, was Sasuke still defeated in the physical battle with usage of chider variants, he's not stopping them from being summoned even Obito wasn't capable of that.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 2, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Kazekage not being Kage level is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Kages are Kage level by default.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So if Konohamaru were made Hokage at his current level would he be Kage level, Kage level is really defined by us the fans , its not about just holding the position its about showing the prerequisite power that makes you one of the stronger characters in the manga , Sasuke and Naruto reached that level when they mastered SM/MS respectively thats when they were considered to be in the upper tier before with Hebi/FRS they showed tremendous potential but weren't quite on that level yet.


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## Doge (Jan 2, 2014)

Deidara is irrelevant as Raiton was shown to completely nullify every single one of his attacks.


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## Raiken (Jan 2, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is Low Kage Tier.
People who are also in that Tier: Kakashi, Gai, Mei; there are probably a lot of others.

Then there's Kage Tier.

Then the people that are beyond Kage Level.


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## Krippy (Jan 2, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is a Mid kage level fighter. Anybody who disagrees is a hater or has a terrible understanding of power levels in nardo.

IMO anyone who can defeat Tsunade 5.5/10 is at the very least low kage level.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Krippy said:


> Hebi Sasuke is a Mid kage level fighter. Anybody who disagrees is a hater or has a terrible understanding of power levels in nardo.
> 
> IMO anyone who can defeat Tsunade 5.5/10 is at the very least low kage level.



What? Tsunade is mid Kage level.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What? Tsunade is mid Kage level.


She is and Hebi Sasuke should beat her more times then not.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> She is and Hebi Sasuke should beat her more times then not.


Yeah I disagree. She can beat Hebi Sasuke more then he can beat her. Same with all the Gokage except Mei.

He's still Mid-Kage though.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2014)

αce said:


> He beat Deidara. And even if you don't accept the outcome of that fight, you still have to accept the fact that Deidara had to suicide to have to fight go even. Unless someone in here is going to tell me that Deidara isn't a kage level fighter then this is pretty obvious. And this is besides the fact that his base sharingan is already strong enough to one shot jounin like shii, who is a kage body guard _and_ a genjutsu specialist.
> 
> There is a giant disparity in strength between the strongest kage's and the weakest, so he'd definitely be on the weak end, but he's still there. Although I don't like the term kage level anyways, since jounin like Gai and Kakashi are kage level too.


And if it wasn't for Sasuke pulling a space time jutsu out of his ass he would've been toast.

Both fights that Sasuke had while hebi he used 2 jutsu he has yet to replicate using again.

I don't think you are kage level just because you are able to beat a kage level opponent, some people are others kryptonite. Deidara was centered around doton so if Sasuke would nullify that with electricity then he would be a less disadvantage. Deidara should have wiped the floor with Sasuke and we all know it.

Hebi Sasuke is high Jounin, he has a good skill set, but to me seems like he is to much based around raiton jutsu's, but raitons weakness is fuuton and fuuton's weakness is katon so he is kinda set on his 2nd affinity being able to deal with the other's weakness.

Hebi Sasuke is very intelligent and devious. He looks for a weakness in the opponent and capitalizes on it.


Like I said I believe he is high jouning but he just doesn't have the versatility that other kage level people do like Deidara, Base Jiraiya, Orochimaru, early p2 Kakashi.


His MS gives him destructive capacity and a defensive technique. That is what puts him Kage level.


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 2, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> He beat the Kaze*kage* in the desert, without trying to kill him and while being unprepared.


there was a statement Chiyo made near the beginning of P2 where she basically says all of their Kazekage were defeated fairly easy. It doesn't take a Kage lvl fighter to beat Kazekge as Sasori and Deidara have already proven.



Authoritah said:


> Saying that a shinobi who became the Kazekage isn't Kage-level.


this is basically saying anyone with the title of Jonin has that lvl of ability. And as what was shown too many times, such is not the case. Itachi's last official rank was Chunin and he made Kurenai look like a complete joke. And she held a superior rank at the time. A constant theme in Naruto is that a rank only measures one's standing within their military personnel, it doesn't always equate to a person having that lvl of fighting ability.



> I've already explained that Gaara wasn't the only one with a disadvantage, Deidara attacked the village because he didn't want anyone else involved in the fight, he had already planted his exploding clay in Gaara's sand when Gaara smashed his arm before he even attacked the village. Deidara is Kage-level.


at best, Deidara is at the Elite Jonin lvl. If he was Kage lvl, his skills would've been more comparable to Onoki's.



Likes boss said:


> Hebi Sasuke is extremely overrated on this forum. People saying he can beat any member of the Gokage bar Mei is annoying to me
> 
> Anyway, he's mid-Kage no doubt.


actually there is doubt. Ei would undoubtedly stomp Hebi Sasuke into the ground; Oro or no Oro. And Ei _is_ Kage lvl.

Much like Deidara, Hebi Sasuke was at best sitting at the Elite Jonin lvl. If he was Kage lvl, he wouldn't have had the amount of trouble surviving either Deidara or Itachi. The both of them matched him move for move and at times had him dead to rights with a certain maneuver or technique.


Authoritah said:


> I don't remember him saying that, but that doesn't mean it was the only reason.


the Suna council member pretty much said they're suspicion of Gaara, aside from the recent need for a Kazekage, is the only reason why he was made Kazekage. I'm sure he worked hard, but none of that ultimately had anything to do with him being handed that rank.


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## Krippy (Jan 2, 2014)

@Likes boss

Nah, Tsunade can only bet Hebi Sasuke under very advantageous circumstances. 

She's at the top of the low kage levels/the bottom of the mid kage levels.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah I disagree. She can beat Hebi Sasuke more then he can beat her. Same with all the Gokage except Mei.
> 
> He's still Mid-Kage though.



Mei wreck Hebi Sasuke and quite easily. She uses hiding in the Mist technique then changes the ph level to the most acidic she can.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah I disagree. She can beat Hebi Sasuke more then he can beat her. Same with all the Gokage except Mei.
> 
> He's still Mid-Kage though.


I think out of the Gokage, Tsunade is the worst fit to fight Hebi Sasuke despite her not being the weakest. He simply hard counters her, Manda for Katsuyu, CQC is not great for her as superior speed, CS1, Sharingan and Raiton variants make life difficult. And since Hebi Sasuke fights intelligently, playing dead feint isn't going to cut it. There's always Kirin if she proves too hard to kill. Genjutsu is also a problem.


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## Cord (Jan 2, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> So if Konohamaru were made Hokage at his current level would he be Kage level, Kage level is really defined by us the fans , its not about just holding the position its about showing the prerequisite power that makes you one of the stronger characters in the manga , Sasuke and Naruto reached that level when they mastered SM/MS respectively thats when they were considered to be in the upper tier before with Hebi/FRS they showed tremendous potential but weren't quite on that level yet.



I'm pretty sure that no one in their right mind will make Konohamaru a Kage in the first place. 

Either you define a Kage level fighter subjectively or objectively. The subjective way points toward how you evaluate the characters' strengths and how they can be compared with others, yes. Like Hebi Sasuke for example who doesn't have any established rank in the manga (being a rogue ninja and all). It boils down to how powerful you perceive him to be. In simpler words, your own opinion.

The objective way of defining it is the simplest (and probably the most accurate) approach, as you only need to look at the manga to determine that. Albeit pretty limited, since there are only a few named characters  who hold that title. Nonetheless, anyone who has a -Kage title attached his/her name is automatically considered Kage level since the author had already given his standards on who qualifies for that level.

While the former may not always be right - trust that the latter is, since that's already been established in the manga.


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## Thunder (Jan 2, 2014)

Doge said:


> Deidara is irrelevant as Raiton was shown to completely nullify every single one of his attacks.



I wouldn't say Deidara is an "irrelevant" factor when attempting to figure out Hebi Sasuke's rank on the power scale. Because merely possessing a Raiton affinity isn't enough to net you a win verses Deidara. In order to accomplish what Hebi Sasuke did there, _above average_ manipulation of the element is required. Along with additional skills. 

Sasuke didn't just rely on his Raiton techs in that fight.


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> I think out of the Gokage, Tsunade is the worst fit to fight Hebi Sasuke despite her not being the weakest. He simply hard counters her, Manda for Katsuyu, CQC is not great for her as superior speed, CS1, Sharingan and Raiton variants make life difficult. And since Hebi Sasuke fights intelligently, playing dead feint isn't going to cut it. There's always Kirin if she proves too hard to kill. Genjutsu is also a problem.


w/o the sufficient amount of heat necessary to create the storm clouds, there's no Kirin. W/o Kirin, Hebi Sasuke doesn't have much of a prayer against someone who can heal from stab wounds. Short of cutting her head off, he has no means whatsoever to stop her ability to regen. The Chidori variants are nice and everything, but they will just produce dmg that will be tantamount to harmless scratches she can shrug off really. They really won't do jack to her long term. 

As for the genjutsu, Hebi Sasuke hasn't done a lot with it seeing as though using it was a bit out of his league. And seeing as though she knows enough about Sharingan to be wary of the genjutsu, i don't see it mattering much.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> I think out of the Gokage, Tsunade is the worst fit to fight Hebi Sasuke despite her not being the weakest. He simply hard counters her, Manda for Katsuyu, CQC is not great for her as superior speed, CS1, Sharingan and Raiton variants make life difficult. And since Hebi Sasuke fights intelligently, playing dead feint isn't going to cut it. There's always Kirin if she proves too hard to kill. Genjutsu is also a problem.



Tsunade can one panel Manda, while Sasuke was absolutely no solution for Katsuyu. After that, the slug can split to from as distractions, spit acid, and latch on to Tsunade to form as extra defense.

With Katsuyu + Byakugo, Sasuke is basically fucked. He has nothing to bypass her defense, and a single hit will either scramble his nervous or blow open his chest and immediately end his life.

Genjustu isn't a problem considering Tsunade has a 5 in intelligence, and it's just a matter if not looking into his eyes. Sasuke won't have the chance to use Karin, considering Katsuyu and Tsunade will be pressuring him constantly.


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## Punished Pathos (Jan 2, 2014)

Pre Hebi Sasuke that fought yamato was kage level so of course Hebi Sasuke is Kage level


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## Punished Pathos (Jan 2, 2014)

Bitches don't know about dat Sick Kimimaro being Kage level tho


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## Nikushimi (Jan 2, 2014)

He beat Deidara who beat Gaara, and he would absolutely murderstomp Mei and Hiruzen, so yes. Hebi Sasuke is Kage-level.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 2, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Mei wreck Hebi Sasuke and quite easily. She uses hiding in the Mist technique then changes the ph level to the most acidic she can.



She won't have a chance to do that before Sasuke blitzes and shoves Chidori Eisou through her belly.


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## Kanki (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke really has one chance to beat Mei and that's in the initial stage - and that depends on the distance. Most fights don't just put 2 people randomly 10 feet away from each other unless one is ambushing another, and if it's Mei that's ambushing she won't get that close anyway.

Too many things have to go for Sasuke for anyone to say he'll beat Mei with any sort of ease. 

The word "blitz" is still used far too casually


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## Nikushimi (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke has a big ass Raiton sword and Mei has nothing she can defend with.

Sasuke is also much faster than her and has Sharingan to read her moves, so he can run up to her, swinging that giant lightning saber around, and cut her to pieces.

If it's not a blitz, then you tell me what to call it.

Changing the distance wouldn't change the outcome; if Mei's outside of blitzing range, she's also too far away to hit Sasuke with anything. Saturating the area around herself with mist (even if it's acidic) doesn't help as long as Sasuke doesn't go anywhere near it.

Let's not forget that snakes can detect targets by their heat signature and their scent, either. Sasuke can just stay at a comfy distance and take pot-shots with throwing weapons at the direction of Aoda or one of his other summons.


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## Kanki (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke had plenty of chakra left to use Susano'o and against Mei but never even thought of using his sword or 'blitzing' anyone. That's why blitzing is so overrated - in this series it seems like 99% of the time characters avoid getting blitzed and there's no reason to think it won't happen here unless we just disregard what happens in the manga.

Mei uses Mist and Sasuke has a problem, especially when that mist is combined with her acid/lava, and suiton's. The area's going to be hot as hell anyway the second any lava jutsu comes out so snake-senses are nullified completely.

Sasuke will enter the mist because he'll want to attack Mei.

One area where Sasuke will reap the benefits is if he can fly out of range. 

And as much as anything, Mei has been portrayed to be on the same level if not higher than Hebi Sasuke. Yes the latter beat Deidara, but he had a lot of advantages in that fight stylistically, as well as Deidara essentially losing his mind due to the whole Itachi situation. 

I can't remember exactly because I haven't bothered to keep up with the BD, but can't Mei alter the PH of her mist without the opponent realising until too late? If not then forget this obviously. 

Mei can stay within blitzing range when the mist is up - limiting Sasuke's speed advantage. Mei's reaction time is also very good as she showed vs Madara.

It seems like as ever, because a character hasn't shown any 'blitz speed', they get vastly underrated.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 2, 2014)

Kanki Is God said:


> Sasuke had plenty of chakra left to use Susano'o and against Mei but never even thought of using his sword or 'blitzing' anyone.



I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the condition he was in probably had something to do with it.

He was tired, injured, and Susano'o had started causing him to go through a fit of intense pain.



> That's why blitzing is so overrated - in this series it seems like 99% of the time characters avoid getting blitzed and there's no reason to think it won't happen here unless we just disregard what happens in the manga.



There are plenty of examples of blitzes that were almost successful and only failed due to plot/intervention.



> Mei uses Mist and Sasuke has a problem, especially when that mist is combined with her acid/lava, and suiton's. The area's going to be hot as hell anyway the second any lava jutsu comes out so snake-senses are nullified completely.



Mei won't get a chance to hide in her mist unless she uses it at long range, and then Sasuke isn't obligated to go anywhere near it.

If she tries that shit at close range, he can just jump her with a Raiton blade and start cutting off limbs.



> Sasuke will enter the mist because he'll want to attack Mei.



He's under no obligation to actively seek her out--no more-so than she is to exit the mist to attack _him_.



> One area where Sasuke will reap the benefits is if he can fly out of range.



Sasuke has not proven that he can fly. Directed gliding is one thing, but flight is another.



> And as much as anything, Mei has been portrayed to be on the same level if not higher than Hebi Sasuke. Yes the latter beat Deidara, but he had a lot of advantages in that fight stylistically, as well as Deidara essentially losing his mind due to the whole Itachi situation.



I don't see how any of that puts Mei within spitting-distance of Sasuke's level, let alone above it. 



> I can't remember exactly because I haven't bothered to keep up with the BD, but can't Mei alter the PH of her mist without the opponent realising until too late? If not then forget this obviously.



She can, but mist doesn't really provide any defense against a blitz.

Mei is lacking in the defense department and in speed as swell, which makes her an easy target for someone with great offensive power and speed like Sasuke.



> Mei can stay within blitzing range when the mist is up - limiting Sasuke's speed advantage.



The mist is not going to physically stop Sasuke, and it's not going to obscure Mei in time to throw off his attack.



> Mei's reaction time is also very good as she showed vs Madara.



Madara was primarily occupied with the other Kage, particularly the Raikage and Hokage at close range. Mei stayed at a comfortable distance and spat lava or water dragons when it was convenient.



> It seems like as ever, because a character hasn't shown any 'blitz speed', they get vastly underrated.



Just being realistic, here.

Sasuke is faster and has Sharingan. He also has a great handheld attack with a lot of power and excellent reach. Mei has nothing to defend with but her bare hands and unremarkable physical stats. The only reasonable outcome to expect is a blitz. Even if they were physically comparable in every way, the addition of Sasuke's Sharingan and Raiton variants gives him a distinct advantage.


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## Bonly (Jan 2, 2014)

As I said in the Mei vs B thread you made before, yes he is easily Kage Level.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hebi Sasuke is capable of slaughtering a prime Itachi without Susanoo. That could warrant him being Kage level. Though maybe he's on the higher end of Jonin level/lower end of Kage level. When he obtained the MS, he was comfortably on the Kage tier.


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## richard lewis (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke is wanked way too hard in the BD, I've seen people make posts claiming that sasuke can WTF blitz onoki................................. Really Guys? Please post 1 scan of sasuke successfuly blitzing a elite jounin lvl ninja or above, I'd love to see one! "btw by successful I mean he actually critically wounds or kills his opponent". No way in hell is sasuke blitzing mei, she spits some lava at him b4 he can close the gap forcing him to dodge and giving her time to set up mist or some other protective measure. I just don't see how sasuke can beat Mei unless either a) orochimaru comes out of his body and uses yamata no orochi which im assuming isn't considered a part of hebi sasuke's power or b) he is able to set up kirin which is debatable given the amount of prep it requires.


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## ZE (Jan 2, 2014)

Low kage level maybe. 
He certainly isn’t stronger than the third Raikage, Ei, Muu, Onoki etc.

But he should be stronger than the other low kages like Gaara’s dad, Mei, Sick and armless Oro, Kakuzu, Deidara etc.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> Sasuke is wanked way too hard in the BD, I've seen people make posts claiming that sasuke can WTF blitz onoki................................. Really Guys? Please post 1 scan of sasuke successfuly blitzing a elite jounin lvl ninja or above, I'd love to see one! "btw by successful I mean he actually critically wounds or kills his opponent". No way in hell is sasuke blitzing mei, she spits some lava at him b4 he can close the gap forcing him to dodge and giving her time to set up mist or some other protective measure. I just don't see how sasuke can beat Mei unless either a) orochimaru comes out of his body and uses yamata no orochi which im assuming isn't considered a part of hebi sasuke's power or b) he is able to set up kirin which is debatable given the amount of prep it requires.




It's a legitimate blitz, even worse because Tobi warned him. Deidara has 4.5 in speed, fended up a weakened Team Gai without arms while weakened himself. So stop calling wank and argue maturely.


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## ZE (Jan 2, 2014)

Deidara was looking at Tobi, not Sasuke.
He didn't see the moment Sasuke left his position. 

If you look to the left and an opponent sneaks on you while you're distracted, that's not a blitz.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

ZE said:


> Deidara was looking at Tobi, not Sasuke.
> He didn't see the moment Sasuke left his position.
> 
> If you look to the left and an opponent sneaks on you while you're distracted, that's not a blitz.


He got a warning, that mitigates the small distraction.

And what if he used CS1 there?


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## IchLiebe (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> He got a warning, that mitigates the small distraction.
> 
> And what if he used CS1 there?



You can't blitz someone by an ambush. A blitz is moving so fast the opponent can't react to them. Deidara reacted to Sasuke's head on charge so we know Sasuke can not blitz Deidara, that's a fact. Him getting behind him can't even be considered a try at a blitz but it failed anyways.

CS1 isn't going to give him the boost he needs. Deidara wasn't even ready and was in the middle of talking.


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## Jagger (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke didn't blitz Deidara. He was close to it, but Deidara reacted just fine to his attack with no injuries. However, that implies Sasuke's speed without even using CS1 is pretty dangerous and deadly. If Sasuke had activated the seal's chakra, maybe Deidara would have gotten injured or maybe not.

Either way, Sasuke is a Kage-level fighter. If people consider Hiruzen as one Kage-level shinobi, why not Hebi Sasuke?


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## richard lewis (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> It's a legitimate blitz, even worse because Tobi warned him. Deidara has 4.5 in speed, fended up a weakened Team Gai without arms while weakened himself. So stop calling wank and argue maturely.



I'll say it again please post a scan of where sasuke has ever *SUCCESSFULLY* "ie. wounded or killed" blitzed someone..... It's never happened! Deidara was able to counter sasuke's attack and Mei can do the same. Deidara made his clone commit suicide to trick team gai into thinking he was dead b/c he couldn't escape them.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Jan 3, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> I'll say it again please post a scan of where sasuke has ever *SUCCESSFULLY* "ie. wounded or killed" blitzed someone..... It's never happened! Deidara was able to counter sasuke's attack and Mei can do the same. Deidara made his clone commit suicide to trick team gai into thinking he was dead b/c he couldn't escape them.



It's never happened? You sure about that?

If you were to extract the wounded or killed clause, HE'D HAVE MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more examples of DAT speed.

Mei can do the same, A? Yeah Mei isn't even in the same league as Deidara, mate.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> She won't have a chance to do that before Sasuke blitzes and shoves Chidori Eisou through her belly.



He might be too busy getting slammed by Susano lifting suitons.  Her hand-seal speed is incredible, and while she doesn't have speed in the sense of mobility, she has to have upper tier reactions with her jutsu in order to sync attacks with the Raikage well enough to take away Madara's breathing room, and re-actively cast suitons against his katons.  This isn't uncommon.  Danzo was old and has no notable foot speed, but he was able to trade blows with Sasuke, and hold him off with ranged ninjutsu that's much less all encompassing than Mei's. Unless you stack knowledge in favor of Sasuke and put starting distance inside of eiso, in which case he beats a lot of people.

Then again I see playful Madara as beyond even the higher end of the kage spectrum, and anyone who can fight him and not be dead within the first minute has to be beyond low kage.  So I pretty much think everyone in that fight was mid-kage or higher.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

The better question is what Jōnin level stands a chance against Hebi Sasuke?



Jagger said:


> Sasuke didn't blitz Deidara. He was close to it, but Deidara reacted just fine to his attack with no injuries. However, that implies Sasuke's speed without even using CS1 is pretty dangerous and deadly. If Sasuke had activated the seal's chakra, maybe Deidara would have gotten injured or maybe not.



Without Obito's warning it would have been a blitz.


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> The better question is what Jōnin level stands a chance against Hebi Sasuke?



Gai and Kakashi


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> Gai and Kakashi



Kakashi and Gai are only Jōnin levels if you're talking about Wave Arc Kakashi (who Manda alone pretty much trumps) and Gai without Gates. But you know that, you beautiful green champion.​


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## BroKage (Jan 3, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is at least low Kage lvl.

He has Sharingan genjutsu, flight, above average regen, a respectable arsenal of ninjutsu, and a GG jutsu that isn't that hard to prep.


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## Ersa (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't see why Jiraiya and Kakashi would consider Sasuke extremely dangerous if he was Jounin level. We know the difference between Jounin and Kage.

And this was Kirin Sasuke.


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## fior fior (Jan 3, 2014)

Of course he is. What the fuck kind of question is this?


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## Alex Payne (Jan 3, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke by definition is Sasuke+Orochimaru. How can someone who could unleash confirmed Kage/legendary shinobi not be Kage-lvl? Sasuke was a pseudo Jinchuriki(with pseudo Sage Mode) at that point. And was freely using Orochimaru's abilities after he reversed Fushi Tensei.

Now on Sasuke himself:

Base Ninjutsu Arsenal - Top Jonin/Borderline Kage(2 mastered elements, several A-rank Raitons, Kuchiyose and variants)
Ninjutsu Trump Cards - Kage(Kirin, Manda, possibly Aoda, Oral Rebirth)
Genjutsu - Kage(suppressed Kyubi, mindfucked Manda, overpowered Oro)
Taijutsu - Jonin
Speed - Kage(blitzed Deidara in base, dodged Killer B V2 while weakened, dodged Raikage)
Strength - Jonin
Stamina - Kage(freely uses Chidori that is very draining, Cursed Seal boosts, White Snake powers)
Intelligence - Kage(Deidara and Itachi fights)

Throw in durability enhanced by CS2, built-in-by-Oro poison resistance, advanced shuriken and weaponry skills.

Hebi Sasuke is one of the most well-rounded shinobi shown. Even when manga is close to its ending. And solid Mid-Kage even without Orochimaru coming out and raping people. He beats most of Akatsuki and either beats or fights evenly with like half of shown Kages(with feats) imo.


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## Dominus (Jan 3, 2014)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> there was a statement Chiyo made near the beginning of P2 where she basically says all of their Kazekage were defeated fairly easy. It doesn't take a Kage lvl fighter to beat Kazekge as Sasori and Deidara have already proven.



Only the Third and the Fourth Kazekage died in a battle, that we know of, Sasori said that it was difficult. Both of them were killed by Kage-level shinobi, Orochimaru and Sasori. 
I seriously don't know what you're trying to say when like others have already said, the Kage themselves are those who show what Kage-level is.



> this is basically saying anyone with the title of Jonin has that lvl of ability. And as what was shown too many times, such is not the case. Itachi's last official rank was Chunin and he made Kurenai look like a complete joke. And she held a superior rank at the time. A constant theme in Naruto is that a rank only measures one's standing within their military personnel, it doesn't always equate to a person having that lvl of fighting ability.



Terrible example. Itachi became a chuunin when he was 10 years old and then he was in ANBU. After his mission he joined Akatsuki and was in it for 10 years, when was he supposed to become a jounin? That's also a terrible example because it shows a ninja who deserves a higher rank but is ranked lower, but there is never a case of someone for example being jounin but deserving to be a chuunin.



> at best, Deidara is at the Elite Jonin lvl. If he was Kage lvl, his skills would've been more comparable to Onoki's.



What makes you think they're so far away, I do consider the Tsuchikage stronger, but the difference in power isn't large. When they fought one-on-one all we saw was this [1], [2], [3] and I don't see how any of that proves that Onoki is _*way*_ stronger than him.
And why are you comparing him to Onoki when he is the strongest of the Gokage? 



> the Suna council member pretty much said they're suspicion of Gaara, aside from the recent need for a Kazekage, is the only reason why he was made Kazekage. I'm sure he worked hard, but none of that ultimately had anything to do with him being handed that rank.



And how does any of that prove that he's not really Kage-level? Compare him, Deidara and Sasuke to Hiruzen who they would win against in a fair fight and you'll see that they are Kage-level.


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## Antos (Jan 3, 2014)

What you are experiencing is what I like to call the Itachi fact - anyone defeated buy Itachi is automatically seen as as a genin rank.  I know blows your mind right.


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## Jagger (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Without Obito's warning it would have been a blitz.


Depends. On which moment are we talking about? The first one where Deidara clearly escaped from the reach of Sasuke's sword (though, he was aiming to Obito)? Or the second time when Sasuke appeared behind Deidara?


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## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Depends. On which moment are we talking about? The first one where Deidara clearly escaped from the reach of Sasuke's sword (though, he was aiming to Obito)? Or the second time when Sasuke appeared behind Deidara?



It doesn't depend, neither where a blitz and can't be considered that way. Even if we take away Obito's warning, it wasn't a blitz.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 3, 2014)

Um...Could someone name a Jōnin level fighter he couldn't beat? I also don't understand how Hebi Sauce isn't Kage level, but Old Hiruzen is. I dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure Sasuke would wreck Old Hiruzen.

Hebi Sasuke is without a doubt Kage level. I honestly don't see how that's debatable. Whether he's low or mid Kage, however, is.


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## SuperSaqer (Jan 3, 2014)

Pre-Skip CS2 Sasuke was Jonin to Elite Jonin level. 

It's implied that Base Sasuke > CS2 Sasuke, so I think at the very least, Base Sasuke is elite jonin+ level. I'd consider him Kage level mostly. 

With the CS, Snake abilities, Snake summon, and lightning techniques, Sasuke is without a doubt kage level.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 3, 2014)

He defeated Deidara a Kage level shinobi. Of course he is. Solid Mid-Kage level if you ask me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 3, 2014)

Easily.

He is the definition of Mid Kage which is : mid tier akatsuki, sannin etc, given he is around their level of power.

When Kirin is taken into account, he might even be borderline High Kage.


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 3, 2014)

BroKage said:


> Hebi Sasuke is at least low Kage lvl.
> 
> He has Sharingan genjutsu, flight, above average regen, a respectable arsenal of ninjutsu, and a GG jutsu that isn't that hard to prep.


he's not Kage lvl in the least. Maybe by Suna-nin standards, but compared to others who are legitimately at that lvl, he'd get wrecked or destroyed before a fight even reaches moderate difficulty.



alex payne said:


> Hebi Sasuke by definition is Sasuke+Orochimaru.


no, he is Sasuke + some of Oro's abilities. There's a difference. 


> How can someone who could unleash confirmed Kage/legendary shinobi not be Kage-lvl? Sasuke was a pseudo Jinchuriki(with pseudo Sage Mode) at that point. And was freely using Orochimaru's abilities after he reversed Fushi Tensei.


Hebi Sasuke hasn't been shown or mentioned to be able to perform the Rashomon or some of the more arcane jutsu in Oro's arsenal. Being able to perform some of the basic snake jutsu and have a poor man's version of his recovering abilities doesn't make Hebi Sasuke a combination of Sasuke + Oro by a long shot. Nor does it put him on Kage lvl for that matter.



> Now on Sasuke himself:
> 
> Base Ninjutsu Arsenal - Top Jonin/Borderline Kage(2 mastered elements, several A-rank Raitons, Kuchiyose and variants)
> Ninjutsu Trump Cards - Kage(Kirin, Manda, possibly Aoda, Oral Rebirth)
> ...


MS Sasuke barely survived Ei, and the latter is at Kage lvl. Hebi Sasuke < MS Sasuke even given how well rounded a fighter he was so that tells you how well Hebi Sasuke matched against someone who is definitely on that lvl. SM Naruto has more of a case to be Kage lvl than Hebi Sasuke, and the former is definitely superior.



I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Um...Could someone name a Jōnin level fighter he couldn't beat? I also don't understand how Hebi Sauce isn't Kage level, but Old Hiruzen is. I dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure Sasuke would wreck Old Hiruzen.


i know for damn sure Hebi Sasuke isn't beating Bee. Dude would get eaten up and spat out before he knew it happened.



> Hebi Sasuke is without a doubt Kage level. I honestly don't see how that's debatable. Whether he's low or mid Kage, however, is.


it's debatable because he barely survived 2 guys at the Elite Jonin lvl. That's how it's debatable. If he was Kage lvl, the difficulty in which he actually defeated those 2 would've been much lower and he wouldn't have ran on E trying to pull it off.


> Authoritah said:
> 
> 
> > Only the Third and the Fourth Kazekage died in a battle, that we know of, Sasori said that it was difficult. Both of them were killed by Kage-level shinobi, Orochimaru and Sasori.
> ...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

Yes, obviously? This shouldn't even need to be debated lol.​​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 3, 2014)

Kage level by technicality (being on or above the level of at least one of the Gokage), then yes.

Though it could also depend on how you define Kage level. Being able to beat Itachi's full power could be considered Kage level, in which case no he didn't reach Kage level till he got the MS.
Or if you consider Deidara a Kage level ninja, then yes. 

Though I'd say seeing as he had Orochimaru's powers (who is Kage level), I'd say yes. Makes you wonder, did he have access to *all* Orochimaru's powers, or just an armless Orochimaru's powers?


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Being Kage level means your at the level or stronger then the weakest Kage. Which is Hirzuen. So yes Hebi Sasuke is mid- Kage level


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 3, 2014)

Gaara improved since part 1. So should we readily say Hebi Sasuke was superior to Gaara? To add perspective, Gaara was giving MS Sasuke some trouble, who is stronger than Hebi Sasuke.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Gaara improved since part 1. So should we readily say Hebi Sasuke was superior to Gaara? To add perspective, Gaara was giving MS Sasuke some trouble, who is stronger than Hebi Sasuke.



I don't get what your saying lol?

But MS Sasuke is only stronger then Hebi Sasuke as he has Sussano and Amasterasu, and the later was instantly countered by Gaara.


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## ZE (Jan 3, 2014)

High kage: Hashirama, Minato, Madara, Naruto, current Sasuke, Obito
He doesn't fit here. 

Mid kage: Tobirama, Muu, Onoki, Pain, Ei, third Raikage, SM Jiraiya, Bee, Kisame, current Kakashi
Doesn't fit here either. Or if he does, he barely fits and is the weakest one in the group. 

Low kage: Mei, Hiruzen, Gaara, Gaara's dad, Deidara, Kakuzu, Gai
He fits here. Personally, I think he could be as strong as Gaara.


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## Jagger (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't really think Hebi Sasuke is as strong as the Gaara we all know. I think we might be overestimating Sasuke's abilities back then or just underestimating the sand boy, but he's obviously capable of giving MS Sasuke some problems, Hebi Sasuke would pose a fight, but not for too long.

Most of his attacks were close-ranged and lacks powerful defensive/offensive jutsu such as Amaterasu or Susano'O back then except for the chidori variants and even then, they wouldn't get through Gaara's defense.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2014)

Hiruzen whips Sasuke's ass for the record. 

Sasuke would struggle in taijutsu, and that's without Enma on the field. If Enma's on the field Sasuke wouldn't stand a chance. Speed wouldn't be shit really when Hiruzne has kept up with Hashirama and Tobirama and won their taijutsu exhange (even though they were weaker, it doesn't mean they were slower or less skilled). 

Ninjutsu is the only thing Sasuke has going for him and it's going to amount to shit against Hiruzen. No one has feats of analyzing jutsu like Hiruzen and it's not a stretch to say he can counter some lightning jutsu. 

Genjutsu ain't happening.

Intelligence easily goes to Hiruzen due to experience and feats. 

People overrate Sasuke and underrate Hiruzen.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

Old Hiruzen (3.0 speed) was blitzed by Orochimaru 

Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 and Sharingan owns him badly. Anyway. Does the author think Hebi Sasuke was Kage level? Hmm.



> But before long, his ambition crumbles to pieces on account of that vessel's flawlessness. The noble blood flowing through him gifts him with a power that exceeds Orochimaru's imagination. Sasuke swallows up the abilities of the white snake, together with the fangs that longed for that blood.






> (balloons: "My wounds have been healing faster since I absorbed Orochimaru.")
> The power of the white snake also granted Sasuke a miraculously fast recovery speed.






> {page 044-045}
> Studied fighting skills! His power surpasses even Akatsuki. (Deidara)






> When that godlike speed is supported by Sharingan's reflexes, anyone standing before Sasuke is unworthy of existence. In a blink he's in front of his opponent, then a flash of sword...!! Before his speed, even Akatsuki members hold their breath in awe.






> Sasuke's excellent resourcefulness as a shinobi is particularly evident in his battle sense and tactical skills. During fights he observes his opponent and accurately sees through his abilities without losing his calm, then he correctly chooses the most effective means and ninjutsu to counter him among the rich variety of items he has in stock. Moreover, at times his resoluteness enables him to pick painful strategies in which he needs to get hurt in order to win against the enemy. All these characteristics make Sasuke a remarkable shinobi.






> He deduces a jutsu's elemental property from the seals performed by its user, then he is able to determine at once the attack range from the color of the chakra. So far, the images of his defeated opponents have always been reflected in his eyes... any plan the enemy might think of or any trick he might use are fruitless in front of Sasuke.





> The main reason why the "Sharingan" was feared by everyone, including the inhabitants of the village, is the power hidden in those eyes, able to subdue even "bijuu". Sasuke, who is rapidly mastering his skills as an Uchiha, is also gradually awakening to that cursed power.
> (balloons: "Those eyes... How did you dare... control me... with those eyes...!")
> The ultimate power of the "Sharingan", that once could tame even the "Kyuubi". A portion of it is visible in Sasuke when he is able to control Manda.






> (balloons: "Now I can see it... So this was your mysterious power....")
> Sasuke's eye power is even able to seize the Kyuubi that dwells in Naruto's body!! Looking at that ominous strength, the Kyuubi is reminded of Madara Uchiha...






> Both of them use countless genjutsu while at the same time throwing daggers and other weapons at each other. Calling this fight breathtaking is an understatement.




Yes. Kishimoto thinks Hebi Sasuke was Kage level. If anything "Mid Kage" is a vast understatement for Kishimoto's descriptions about Hebi Sasuke.

And yes. Hebi Sasuke is just Itachi Light.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Hiruzen whips Sasuke's ass for the record.
> 
> Sasuke would struggle in taijutsu, and that's without Enma on the field. If Enma's on the field Sasuke wouldn't stand a chance. Speed wouldn't be shit really when Hiruzne has kept up with Hashirama and Tobirama and won their taijutsu exhange (even though they were weaker, it doesn't mean they were slower or less skilled).
> 
> ...



You have got to be kidding yourself if you think Hashirama and Tobirama weren't slower. 

Tobirama is known for his legendary shunshin, and could react faster to Juubtos orb then KCM Minato.

Hashirama could completing outpace a TBB that crossed an ocean in a moment, and is known for reacting to alive Madara who could blitz SM Naruto.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Hiruzen (3.0 speed) was blitzed by Orochimaru's 4.5 shunsin speed.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke with 4.5 and Sharingan owns him badly.



Blitz someone not prepared, and while their in a smoke screen? No. He wasn't blitzed by anything. We also don't know if there was a struggle or what.

Hiruzen kept up with all of them latter on, even when in bringer of darkness.



Likes boss said:


> You have got to be kidding yourself if you think Hashirama and Tobirama weren't slower.
> 
> Tobirama is known for his legendary shunshin, and could react faster to Juubtos orb then KCM Minato.



I don't remember him reacting to it faster than Minato, scan. Tobirama isn't known for his shunsin either, he's known for a number of things and speed ain't one. Space-time ninjutsu is.



> Hashirama could completing outpace a TBB that crossed an ocean in a moment, and is known for reacting to alive Madara who could blitz SM Naruto.



He didn't outpace it, he used a ninjutsu to block it. He was also at a considerable distance which helps tremendously.

Hiruzen also arrived with Tobirama and Hashirama at the battlefield at the same time. Aka kept up with them.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

He "kept up" because Orochimaru was toying with him and the Edo Hokage were at like 30% power at best.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> He "kept up" because Orochimaru was toying with him and the Edo Hokage were at like 30% power at best.



When have edo's ever been shown to lose speed or skill? Never. Itachi and Kisame's 30% clones were still as fast and had the same reflexes. Had the Hokage been alive then, Hiruzen would have won relatively quickly as their legs were blown off. He would have then beat Orochimaru down.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Blitz someone not prepared, and while their in a smoke screen? No. He wasn't blitzed by anything. We also don't know if there was a struggle or what.
> 
> Hiruzen kept up with all of them latter on, even when in bringer of darkness.
> 
> ...



He reacted way faster. He was at a farther distance and had to shunshin there before Minato simply moved his arm like an inch; [3]

also Tobirama noted that KCM Minato had a shunshin even faster then his, carrying the nothin, that Tobirama has an insanely fast shunshin.

And here again Kishi supports the speed of Tobiramas speed ; [3]


No he didn't ? He outspeed the TBB, then had time to completely turnaround and then summon the gates ; [3]

You also instantly crossed a mountain range; [3]

Also he causally reacts to alive Madara who could blitz SM Naruto.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He reacted way faster. He was at a farther distance and had to shunshin there before Minato simply moved his arm like an inch; [3]



You mean how Tobirama has a hiraishin seal on Minato and that's not a shunsin.



> also Tobirama noted that KCM Minato had a shunshin even faster then his, carrying the nothin, that Tobirama has an insanely fast shunshin.



Regular Minato and someone saying someone's faster... I don't even know what to say.



> And here again Kishi supports the speed of Tobiramas speed ; [3]



He was talking about hiraishin. They call shunshin and hiraishin the same or something, I've seen it talked by the takl guy before. And a regular shunshin wouldn't make since as he's using a chakra connection and regular shunsin don't work that way.



> No he didn't ? He outspeed the TBB, then had time to completely turnaround and then summon the gates ; [3]
> 
> You also instantly crossed a mountain range; [3]
> 
> Also he causally reacts to alive Madara who could blitz SM Naruto.



2nd scan wasn't shit. 1st is almost exactly like I said. He didn't outrun it, he blocked it. 

Hiruzen reacted to Juubito. Are you going to tell me Hebi Sasuke is faster than Juubito? The same one that blitzed Hashirama and Tobirama, who reacts to Madara, who blitzes SM Naruto meaning Hiruzen has top tier reflexes and reaction and check-motherfucking-mate.

EDIT: Also in you head, edo's are slower than the real living form making him even faster. It would be wise to just stop saying Hiruzen won't keep up with Sasuke.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Hiruzen whips Sasuke's ass for the record.
> 
> Sasuke would struggle in taijutsu, and that's without Enma on the field. If Enma's on the field Sasuke wouldn't stand a chance. Speed wouldn't be shit really when Hiruzne has kept up with Hashirama and Tobirama and won their taijutsu exhange (even though they were weaker, it doesn't mean they were slower or less skilled).
> 
> ...



Seriously? How would he struggle with Taijutsu? Sasuke with an undeveloped Sharingan could keep up with speeds faster than him in Part I. In Part II, how would he struggle against someone significantly slower than him with Chidori Nagashi and snake defenses as his fail safes?

What analytical feats does Hiruzen have that surpass Sasuke analyzing Deidara's Kinjutsu? 

Let's be real. There is no way Hiruzen could ever beat Sasuke. Enma is not enough to beat him. He has every advantage against Hiruzen except Taijutsu, but even there that is nullified by Sharingan, snakes and Chidori Nagashi.



IchLiebe said:


> When have edo's ever been shown to lose speed or skill? Never. Itachi and Kisame's 30% clones were still as fast and had the same reflexes. Had the Hokage been alive then, Hiruzen would have won relatively quickly as their legs were blown off. He would have then beat Orochimaru down.



Madara is a clear example. He blitzed SM Naruto and Sai as soon as he came back to life.

Hashirama and Tobirama were way slower. Hashirama was able to outrun Perfect Susano'o's destruction, moving through a mountain range effortlessly. And then he moved equal to the Bijuu-Shuriken that Madara threw. That thing moved so fast that it crossed that entire body of water before the water displaced could go back to its initial spot.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 3, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Seriously? How would he struggle with Taijutsu? Sasuke with an undeveloped Sharingan could keep up with speeds faster than him in Part I. In Part II, how would he struggle against someone significantly slower than him with Chidori Nagashi and snake defenses as his fail safes?



What speeds did he react to that were that fast? And note, I'm not saying Hiruzen is blitzing Sasuke, just keeping up and beating him in taijutsu.

Nagashi would do some good but not enough. Snake defenses are not tougher than the god tree.



> What analytical feats does Hiruzen have that surpass Sasuke analyzing Deidara's Kinjutsu?



From barely seeing it, he knew everything about it.



> Let's be real. There is no way Hiruzen could ever beat Sasuke. Enma is not enough to beat him. He has every advantage against Hiruzen except Taijutsu, but even there that is nullified by Sharingan, snakes and Chidori Nagashi.



Sasuke isn't good in taijutsu, overrated. And he's better in ninjutsu but Hiruzen's knowledge and analyzing ability makes me go with him everytime.



> Madara is a clear example. He blitzed SM Naruto and Sai as soon as he came back to life.
> 
> Hashirama and Tobirama were way slower. Hashirama was able to outrun Perfect Susano'o's destruction, moving through a mountain range effortlessly. And then he moved equal to the Bijuu-Shuriken that Madara threw. That thing moved so fast that it crossed that entire body of water before the water displaced could go back to its initial spot.



When did Madara ever try to before? It's pointless. And read my above post about Hiruzen's reactions.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 3, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> What speeds did he react to that were that fast? And note, I'm not saying Hiruzen is blitzing Sasuke, just keeping up and beating him in taijutsu.
> 
> Nagashi would do some good but not enough. Snake defenses are not tougher than the god tree.



In Part I, he reacted to 0TK Naruto who was blitzing 2 Tomoe Sharingan Sasuke. And then he could even react to 1TK Naruto once he got his 3rd Tomoe. His reflexes and speed have increased drastically since then. 

So you think that branch he cut was durable enough that Deidara's explosives wouldn't be able to get through? Sasuke was able to resist the guided missiles with CS2 and then of course the snake summon in the beginning (I forget what C it was). 



> From barely seeing it, he knew everything about it.



Well, not everything he said was totally confirmed. But regardless, that was pretty good. 



> Sasuke isn't good in taijutsu, overrated. And he's better in ninjutsu but Hiruzen's knowledge and analyzing ability makes me go with him everytime.



He's average at Taijutsu. But his Sharingan, speed and close range Ninjutsu make up for all of that. Sasuke's analyzing ability isn't bad either. He was able to analyze Danzo as well. 



> When did Madara ever try to before? It's pointless. And read my above post about Hiruzen's reactions.



Hiruzen only reacted to the black staff. He got blitzed just after. That just tells you that his Shunshin is much faster than the Jutsu's shape extension. 

Hashirama noted that Madara had regained his full powers even though he hadn't used a single MS technique yet. It's quite obvious that his speed had taken an increase. The best he did as an Edo was react to A in V1.


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## Tapion (Jan 3, 2014)

ABC

gotta love my A>B>C 

A>B>C logic. 

deidara is kage level but sasuke beating him doesn't make him kage level...not with the advantage he had. 

its like saying batman is planetary level because he beat superman with a kryptonite. 

he's high jonin to low kage level overall.

Sasuke is high kage level by sand village standards

low/mid by leaf standards

low by cloud standards

low by rock standards

mid by water standards


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## Shariwin (Jan 4, 2014)

DatScizor said:


> ABC
> 
> gotta love my A>B>C
> 
> ...


I don't agree with these 'standards', but everything else is good.

Hebi Sasuke might have defeated Deidara who was at Kage level, but that doesn't make him Kage level.  It was merely a very favorable fight for him!

We saw what happened when he fought a Kage level opponent, without the handicaps, Bee.  What happened?  He got repeatedly fucked up!

He is high jounin level, maybe low Kage.  

Which is irrefutable proof why sickly Itachi is at best Low Kage.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> You mean how Tobirama has a hiraishin seal on Minato and that's not a shunsin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tobirama didn't have a seal on Minato at that point, it was after that he tagged Minato. He used a shunshin to get there, as that's the fastest way other then FTG.

It's a hint that Tobirama has a fast shunshin? Ya think ? Ay saying KCM Naruto is faster then him doesn't mean Ay's slow. If anything, it's an indication that both of them have great speed yet Naruto is more impressive. >>> Doesn't matter anyway, as we have already seen the proficiency at which Tobirama can shunshin.

 Why would they call shunshin and FTG the same thing? Your gonna have to post a scan, or your post is invalid.

No it's not? Hashirama clearly outpaced, considering he had time to turn all the way fucking around and summon gates. He did so to not get caught in the AoE of the BD. The same BD that crossed that entire ocean in a second. That's faster then anythingggggg Hirzuen can muster. 


Show me exactly where Hirzuen reacts to Juubito. I remember him just getting his ass handed to him unlike everyone else that could atleast capitalize  on Juubitos attacks. 

It would also be wise to realize that I never said Hiruzen couldn't react to Sasuke. Only that is obvious that the EDO Hokage when pitted against Hirzuen were far slower.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 4, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> In Part I, he reacted to 0TK Naruto who was blitzing 2 Tomoe Sharingan Sasuke. And then he could even react to 1TK Naruto once he got his 3rd Tomoe. His reflexes and speed have increased drastically since then.



0tk Naruto was not blitzing Sasuke by any means. Sasuke reacted but Naruto's strength tossed him around. Sasuke has got faster by a good amount but not what you're making it out to be. He fast but any jounin is reacting to him.




> So you think that branch he cut was durable enough that Deidara's explosives wouldn't be able to get through? Sasuke was able to resist the guided missiles with CS2 and then of course the snake summon in the beginning (I forget what C it was).



A snake is going to get smacked around by Enma no matter how you look at it. He broke Hashirama's wood, and the god tree. Sasuke's snakes and cs2 aren't that strong.



> Well, not everything he said was totally confirmed. But regardless, that was pretty good.



It was never contradicted or had anything hinting it was wrong.



> He's average at Taijutsu. But his Sharingan, speed and close range Ninjutsu make up for all of that. Sasuke's analyzing ability isn't bad either. He was able to analyze Danzo as well.



Hiruzen is good enough to fight against a sharingan. His reflexes are good, and his taijutsu skill is above Sasuke's. Sasuke's speed isn't going to be much good here. He ain't blitzing, and once he gets in close it's going to be a lot less effective. Once he's in taijutsu, it's going to be reflexes and skill. Sasuke had help analyzing Danzo through Karin.



> Hiruzen only reacted to the black staff. He got blitzed just after. That just tells you that his Shunshin is much faster than the Jutsu's shape extension.



Like what happened to Hashi and Tobirama. He reacted to Juubito who faster than Sasuke so there's nothing to argue here. If you think Hiruzen, a kage for 40+ years never fought someone of Hebi Sasuke's speed and gets blitzed than you're crazy and heavily bias'd.



> Hashirama noted that Madara had regained his full powers even though he hadn't used a single MS technique yet. It's quite obvious that his speed had taken an increase. The best he did as an Edo was react to A in V1.



He didn't say that until Madara used jutsu. Had he said it after the blitz you would have something.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tobirama didn't have a seal on Minato at that point, it was after that he tagged Minato. He used a shunshin to get there, as that's the fastest way other then FTG.



Seems so. But it's not a feat as we don't know where Tobirama was or when he started moving. He could've been going to Naruto and Sasuke and reacted when Minato teleported. To much to speculate. 



> It's a hint that Tobirama has a fast shunshin? Ya think ? Ay saying KCM Naruto is faster then him doesn't mean Ay's slow. If anything, it's an indication that both of them have great speed yet Naruto is more impressive. >>> Doesn't matter anyway, as we have already seen the proficiency at which Tobirama can shunshin.



But we know Ei's the fastest man alive so it's different. Tobirama has never been praised for his speed nor is he renown for it.



> Why would they call shunshin and FTG the same thing? Your gonna have to post a scan, or your post is invalid.



 Scan and what he said.



> No it's not? Hashirama clearly outpaced, considering he had time to turn all the way fucking around and summon gates. He did so to not get caught in the AoE of the BD. The same BD that crossed that entire ocean in a second. That's faster then anythingggggg Hirzuen can muster.



We didn't see him cross any distance. We saw him in the air, then hit the ground, and then summon gates. I'm not calling Hiruzen fast, I'm saying he has good reactions.



> Show me exactly where Hirzuen reacts to Juubito. I remember him just getting his ass handed to him unlike everyone else that could atleast capitalize  on Juubitos attacks.



Right here. He got tagged, but Juubito is still way faster than Hebi Sasuke.



> It would also be wise to realize that I never said Hiruzen couldn't react to Sasuke. Only that is obvious that the EDO Hokage when pitted against Hirzuen were far slower.



Hiruzen reacting to Sasuke is the main thing I'm arguing .


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Seems so. But it's not a feat as we don't know where Tobirama was or when he started moving. He could've been going to Naruto and Sasuke and reacted when Minato teleported. To much to speculate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We know for a fact he want in the area as it's in the scan. Tobirama was nowhere to be seen when Minato's hand was literally inches from the orb ; here.
The he appeared literally a panel later. That's insane.

I'm gonna go directly from the name in the manga, rather the speculation of a poster I don't even know. He even directly said "I'm guessing ." So yeah, I'm gonna with what I said. Tobirama used his shunshin.

Oh my lord. Yes we DO! This is Hashirama crossing the mountain range running away from Madara; here.

Then we specifically see Hashirama running away from the shiruken BD as it's fired. Then we see Madara talk some shit. Then we see Hashirama slide, Completely turn around, bite his lip, and hit the ground before the BD was even close to him ;  here.

And we know Hashirama was a good deal ahead of the BD, as the gate had to be summoned and placed a good amount ahead of Hashirama, and in the next panel the BD hasn't even hit the gates yet; here.

First that isn't even close to a Juubito shunshin( his fastest move) that's his black orb which is much slower. Secondly, nobody should he proud of what Hirzuen just did. He got his shoulder completely blown off by a casual Juubito, them his head ripped off in the next panel. You also have to consider the distance Hirzuen managed to move like an inch lol.

Oh then yeah. Hiruzen can react to Sasuke just fine. Winning is different however. I'm just under the impression that Tobirama is far faster currently then when summoned to fight Hirzuen


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## Rain (Jan 4, 2014)

Kage level became nothing special when it started consisting of Mei, Tsunade, Gaara and the rest of mid tier fighters.

Hebi Sasuke is easily above any of those three, thus a Kage-level fighter.


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## Shariwin (Jan 4, 2014)

Rain said:


> Kage level became nothing special when it started consisting of Mei, Tsunade, Gaara and the rest of mid tier fighters.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke is easily above any of those three, thus a Kage-level fighter.



ROFL!
Someone has a boner for the uchiha!

Nonsense, utter nonsense!

Gaara is high tier Kage, maybe even stronger than stone.
Mei and Tsunade are mid tier Kage.

Hebi Sasuke was low tier at best, and that is exaggerating.


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## Ghost (Jan 4, 2014)

Easily. He has the physical stats of a kage level fighter and powerful ninjutsu + some genjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 4, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> I don't agree with these 'standards', but everything else is good.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke might have defeated Deidara who was at Kage level, but that doesn't make him Kage level.  It was merely a very favorable fight for him!



Sasuke stated he had a back-up plan in case defusing Deidara's bombs with Raiton didn't work. Speculation in hindsight dictates that it was probably Kirin, but it could've been anything (even that flying hawk summon he pulled out of his ass when he fought Danzou).

Whatever the case, Kishimoto made it clear that Sasuke's victory was by no means only because of his element type.



> We saw what happened when he fought a Kage level opponent, without the handicaps, Bee.  What happened?  He got repeatedly fucked up!



Sasuke was injured, had to take B alive, and still hadn't mastered the Mangekyou Sharingan yet; Hebi Sasuke is a hell of a lot stronger than an injured Sasuke who can only use a single Amaterasu in desperate circumstances. In addition, Killer B is pretty strong even by Kage standards; plenty of Kage would fall before him.



> He is high jounin level, maybe low Kage.
> 
> Which is irrefutable proof why sickly Itachi is at best Low Kage.



That is...indefensibly stupid. We saw Itachi beat Orochimaru like he was blowing his nose. Sasuke would not need to train three years with a Kage-killing Sannin just to beat someone who is "high Jonin or low Kage level"; Itachi was built up as way more than that, and for good reason considering how crucial he was to Sasuke's entire subplot.

And yet again, you're capping sick Itachi's power at Hebi Sasuke's level, despite Obito stating explicitly that Itachi could've wasted him if he had been serious about it.

I have to assume you're trolling or just deliberately going against common sense, because this isn't just a conclusion a person can reach normally; it flies in the face of everything we were ever told and shown about Itachi.

I suspect that you're probably trolling, because Itachi was not even a part of this thread; you just brought him up completely out of the blue. Either way, you're completely out of touch with reality.


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## Ersa (Jan 4, 2014)

I compare Sick Itachi vs Hebi Sasuke to Madara vs The Gokage. The Gokage can push Madara (to a certain extent) like Hebi Sasuke could push Itachi. That being said both Madara and Itachi had a surefire way to instantly win off the bat (Perfect Susanoo / Susanoo) and could've won if they hadn't been dicking around/holding back with their regular techniques. I mean if Madara hadn't decided to sit around while his clones fought the Kages then he would've won earlier.  Drop a couple of meteors while the clones fight and maybe send another Flower World their way. Tobi alluded Itachi could do the same.

So yeah the fact that Sick Itachi could do that to someone as capable as Hebi Sasuke is a testament to Itachi's intelligence and strength while sick, dying and holding back.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 4, 2014)

Whether or not Hebi Sasuke is even stronger than sick Itachi without Susano'o is debatable.

With Susano'o in the picture, Itachi's superiority isn't in question at all.


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## Ersa (Jan 4, 2014)

I agree, there is a case for Hebi Sasuke to defeat sick Itachi without Susanoo however I think Itachi still has a solid chance with Amaterasu. He was doing okay in general until he took the Tsukiyomi backlash which may have been a weaker version (just a theory but there was no time manipulation nor the moon & black white color scheme in the background which put Kakashi/Sasuke in a coma). Coupled with Tobi's comment that Itachi held back overall and not just with Susanoo and I think there is more then a solid case for Itachi winning. Honestly the biggest problem for this Itachi is he's simply running on sheer willpower and medicine, the longer he fights the worse his chances become.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 4, 2014)

It's funny that Konoha would send four high Jonin-levels (two of them arguably Kage-level) and five high Chuunin-levels to capture a single high Jonin-level/low Kage-level target.

I can't wait to see Shariwin a.k.a. asstonine a.k.a. johnsuewey explain that one.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 4, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> It's funny that Konoha would send four high Jonin-levels (two of them arguably Kage-level) and five high Chuunin-levels to capture a single high Jonin-level/low Kage-level target.
> 
> I can't wait to see Shariwin a.k.a. asstonine a.k.a. johnsuewey explain that one.


They knew that Akatsuki travel in pairs. They needed more people to deal with biju-lvl Kisame


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## Dominus (Jan 4, 2014)

And succeeded.

I completely proved you wrong.
You said "all of their Kazekage were defeated fairly easy" and I proved you wrong because it was only the Third and the Fourth Kazekage and it was difficult.
You said "It doesn't take a Kage lvl fighter to beat Kazekge", what are the Kazekage if they are not Kage-level? They define what is Kage-level. 
So how did I not prove you wrong? 



> it isn't a terrible example, it's something you have a hard time swallowing because it destroys the notion you're trying to hold on to. It's been demonstrated time and time again why someone's rank doesn't equate it to being their skill lvl. Naruto is a genin and he even though he currently has no bijuu juice he's still stronger than a lot of ppl with a superior rank. But i suppose you're still going to say "terrible example". It is what it is. Deal with it.



I like how you "unintentionally" missed this which is my main point - It's a terrible example because it shows a ninja who deserves a higher rank but is ranked lower, but there is never a case of someone for example being jounin but deserving to be a chuunin.



> "isn't that large"?
> 
> You don't consider this "a huge gap"?
> 
> ...



That isn't the correct translation about him being able to blow up the *whole* island.





I guess you forgot what Deidara can do. 








*Spoiler*: __ 










> to end this ridiculous notion of Hebi Sasuke being Kage lvl when any reasonable person can see otherwise.because it shows that contrary to forum myth, the alleged lvl of Gaara's fighting abilities weren't why he was handed the position



I like how you also "unintentionally" missed this which is my main point - Compare Gaara, Deidara and Sasuke to Hiruzen who they would win against in a fair fight and you'll see that they are Kage-level.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> 0tk Naruto was not blitzing Sasuke by any means. Sasuke reacted but Naruto's strength tossed him around. Sasuke has got faster by a good amount but not what you're making it out to be. He fast but any jounin is reacting to him.







> A snake is going to get smacked around by Enma no matter how you look at it. He broke Hashirama's wood, and the god tree. Sasuke's snakes and cs2 aren't that strong.



You didn't exactly attack my argument. Even if a snake is going to get smacked around by Enma, does that mean that it won't protect Sasuke like it did against Deidara's explosive? No. Deidara's explosive was able to kill it, but left Sasuke unscathed. 



> It was never contradicted or had anything hinting it was wrong.



Shikaku hyped Itachi to be able to control Ninja with Genjutsu. Since it was never contradicted or had anything hinting it was wrong, it must be true. 



> Hiruzen is good enough to fight against a sharingan. His reflexes are good, and his taijutsu skill is above Sasuke's. Sasuke's speed isn't going to be much good here. He ain't blitzing, and once he gets in close it's going to be a lot less effective. Once he's in taijutsu, it's going to be reflexes and skill. Sasuke had help analyzing Danzo through Karin.



So you're putting his reflexes better than Deidara's, whom it took till Sasuke was getting dangerously close to him to react to his Shunshin from far away? The databook contradicts that and once again we haven't seen him react to a Shunshin as fast as Sasuke's. And Sasuke analyzed Izanagi without Karin's help. They were both able to do it, but didn't intel share during that fight about Izanagi.



> Like what happened to Hashi and Tobirama. He reacted to Juubito who faster than Sasuke so there's nothing to argue here. If you think Hiruzen, a kage for 40+ years never fought someone of Hebi Sasuke's speed and gets blitzed than you're crazy and heavily bias'd.



Can you prove that the Jutsu he reacted to is faster than Sasuke's Shunshin? If you can't, then your assertion means nothing. Hashirama could fight Madara (Who blitzed SM Naruto) in Taijutsu without getting blitzed when he was alive. Edo Hashi's clone and Edo Tobirama got blitzed by Juubito, yes. But that doesn't put their reflexes as equal because they all got blitzed by the same thing lol. That only places a ceiling for their reflexes (as edos anyway). Hiruzen's ceiling is that Jutsu that he could react to but not fully dodge. That Jutsu has not shown to blitz Hashirama or Tobirama. 

And by the way, I have nothing against Hiruzen. I find that Hiruzen's character is too likable and extremely hard to hate. I don't see many Hiruzen haters around and there shouldn't be. He was a great father to all the villagers while he was Hokage, and that's exactly the type of person I would want to be in his situation. And as for Sasuke, my opinion of him flip flops depending on the arc. I liked him in Part I up until the Retrieval Arc. I liked his fighting style in Part II but never enjoyed his character too much until the War Arc. Unlike you who has gone to great lengths to openly hate on the Uchiha bros. So don't accuse me of bias when you are guilty of a much higher bias than I. 



> He didn't say that until Madara used jutsu. Had he said it after the blitz you would have something.



So you're saying the Katon that did virtually no damage was more indicative of his regaining full powers than his speed? Edo Madara's power was shown to be much higher than that Katon (Perfect Susano'o, Meteors lol).


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 4, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> And succeeded.


succeeded at what exactly?



> I completely proved you wrong.
> You said "all of their Kazekage were defeated fairly easy" and I proved you wrong because it was only the Third and the Fourth Kazekage and it was difficult.[/QU0TE]i said it's what she *basically* said, not what she literally said. You do know the difference between "basically" and "literally" right? God help me......
> 
> 
> ...


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 4, 2014)

Sasuke stated he had a back-up plan in case defusing Deidara's bombs with Raiton didn't work. Speculation in hindsight dictates that it was probably Kirin, but it could've been anything (even that flying hawk summon he pulled out of his ass when he fought Danzou).



> Whatever the case, Kishimoto made it clear that Sasuke's victory was by no means only because of his element type.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Who are these Kages that Killer Bee can defeat because maybe other than Tsunade a primarily support ninja and Ei who relies to much on CQC I see most Kage defeating him


2. You mean  if using your strongest technique at the cost of your own life against an enemy who cant use jutsu is blowing your nose then yeah, 

3. Itachi was definitely a  mid-high Kage level fighter mainly due to Susanoo but he couldn't sustain Susanoo long enough due to his illness, he's similar to Pain Arc Naruto who with SM was high Kage but because of the 4 time limit he couldn't sustain that level for long

4. SIck Itachi was at least a tier stronger than Hebi Sasuke, most people say its just due to Susanoo but we don't know where Itachi was holding back or going all out , we were told he was pulling his punches the whole fight 


Hebi Sauce , Deidara were both significantly weaker than Sick Itachi 


As for comparing Hebi Sauce to MS Sasuke , MS Sasuke didn't become Kage level until he was able to use Susanoo and fight on par with a Kage (Ei) before that he was probably on par or slightly weaker than his Hebi form


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## egressmadara (Jan 4, 2014)

He can contend with fighters like Mei, Gaara, and Tsunade, but will lose out to them without Kirin or any advanced genjutsu.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 4, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> We know for a fact he want in the area as it's in the scan. Tobirama was nowhere to be seen when Minato's hand was literally inches from the orb ;  And the numbers were massive.
> The he appeared literally a panel later. That's insane.



But where did he start from? We have no idea. He could've been 10 feet away and shunshin'd there. We don't know.



> I'm gonna go directly from the name in the manga, rather the speculation of a poster I don't even know. He even directly said "I'm guessing ." So yeah, I'm gonna with what I said. Tobirama used his shunshin.



You didn't even read it. He translated this page as Tobirama saying Minato used shunshin with a kage bunshin. Then Tobirama asked if he had alreadly marked him. We know everything about that situation, Minato hiraishin'd to Obito using the tag from when Naruto was born. So Tobirama called hiraishin, shunshin. 

And Takl is pretty well known translator. I believe he's even Japanese, or lives in Japan.



> Oh my lord. Yes we DO! This is Hashirama crossing the mountain range running away from Madara; this



Nothing to go on. He wasn't running from a bijuu dama then. He was just running.



> Then we specifically see Hashirama running away from the shiruken BD as it's fired. Then we see Madara talk some shit. Then we see Hashirama slide, Completely turn around, bite his lip, and hit the ground before the BD was even close to him ;  this



Pretty good but it still ain't a speed Hiruzen can't handle.



> And we know Hashirama was a good deal ahead of the BD, as the gate had to be summoned and placed a good amount ahead of Hashirama, and in the next panel the BD hasn't even hit the gates yet; this



Ok.



> First that isn't even close to a Juubito shunshin( his fastest move) that's his black orb which is much slower. Secondly, nobody should he proud of what Hirzuen just did. He got his shoulder completely blown off by a casual Juubito, them his head ripped off in the next panel. You also have to consider the distance Hirzuen managed to move like an inch lol.



Juubito's black orbs protected him from his bomb that Tobirama hiraishin'd. They are not slow by any means. Juubito is miles above Sasuke in speed. An inch on Juubito, is a foot on Sasuke.



> Oh then yeah. Hiruzen can react to Sasuke just fine. Winning is different however. I'm just under the impression that Tobirama is far faster currently then when summoned to fight Hirzuen



Ok.


Ain't nothing as Sasuke was just beaten down before hand. Get ran over by a car, and you're going to move slower.



> You didn't exactly attack my argument. Even if a snake is going to get smacked around by Enma, does that mean that it won't protect Sasuke like it did against Deidara's explosive? No. Deidara's explosive was able to kill it, but left Sasuke unscathed.



An explosion ends, Hiruzen can attack 1000 times in a row while Deidara can't. So it may block one or two hits, but it won't keep it up.



> Shikaku hyped Itachi to be able to control Ninja with Genjutsu. Since it was never contradicted or had anything hinting it was wrong, it must be true.



Nonsense. We saw Itachi fight multiple opponents, multiple times and never did that. That's the contradiction. Everything we saw of Juubito followed what Hiruzen said.



> So you're putting his reflexes better than Deidara's, whom it took till Sasuke was getting dangerously close to him to react to his Shunshin from far away? The databook contradicts that and once again we haven't seen him react to a Shunshin as fast as Sasuke's. And Sasuke analyzed Izanagi without Karin's help. They were both able to do it, but didn't intel share during that fight about Izanagi.



Yeah. Deidara's a long range fighter so his reflexes aren't going to be as good in CQC. 

Asuma's speed stat 4.5. Asuma's taijutsu stat 4.5.
Hidan's speed stat 3.5. Hidan't taijutsu stat 4.5.
We all know what happened there.

Hiruzen's speed stat 3.  Hiruzen's taijutsu stat 5.  Hiruzen's genjutsu stat 5. Hiruzen's intelligence stat 5. Hiruzen's hand seal stat 5.
Sasuke's speed stat 4.5. Sasuke's taijutsu stat 3.5. Sasuke's Genjutsu stat 4.  Sasuke's intelligence stat 3.5. Sasuke's hand seal stat 4.

Total stats- Hiruzen 34. Sasuke 31.5




> Can you prove that the Jutsu he reacted to is faster than Sasuke's Shunshin? If you can't, then your assertion means nothing. Hashirama could fight Madara (Who blitzed SM Naruto) in Taijutsu without getting blitzed when he was alive. Edo Hashi's clone and Edo Tobirama got blitzed by Juubito, yes. But that doesn't put their reflexes as equal because they all got blitzed by the same thing lol. That only places a ceiling for their reflexes (as edos anyway). Hiruzen's ceiling is that Jutsu that he could react to but not fully dodge. That Jutsu has not shown to blitz Hashirama or Tobirama.



That jutsu reacted to Tobirama's hiraishin.



> And by the way, I have nothing against Hiruzen. I find that Hiruzen's character is too likable and extremely hard to hate. I don't see many Hiruzen haters around and there shouldn't be. He was a great father to all the villagers while he was Hokage, and that's exactly the type of person I would want to be in his situation. And as for Sasuke, my opinion of him flip flops depending on the arc. I liked him in Part I up until the Retrieval Arc. I liked his fighting style in Part II but never enjoyed his character too much until the War Arc. Unlike you who has gone to great lengths to openly hate on the Uchiha bros. So don't accuse me of bias when you are guilty of a much higher bias than I.



I didn't know I hated on Sasuke. I don't overestimate him like others. There's no bias coming from my side. If you think Sasuke is so much faster that Hiruzen can't react to him then you're bias. That's a ridiculous thing to state, I don't care who you are.



> So you're saying the Katon that did virtually no damage was more indicative of his regaining full powers than his speed? Edo Madara's power was shown to be much higher than that Katon (Perfect Susano'o, Meteors lol).



I'm saying Hashi didn't say that seeing only his taijutsu. There were other factors.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> But where did he start from? We have no idea. He could've been 10 feet away and shunshin'd there. We don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But we know he was still farther then Minato right ? That's still mean his shunshin is incredibly fast for him to get there before KCM Minato could move his arm. 


Ehh I guess I'll agree with that. Sounds pretty solid. Doesn't mater anyway, as we've seen his shunshin being a million times faster then what it was against Hiruzen. 

He was able to tag Obito twice( I don't think anyone bar Naruto and Sasuke were able to do that) ; jutsu 

And he was praised by KCM Minato like next panel to be quick to act; jutsu 

And not only did he place the seals, but he managed to tag Obito with a seal without him even noticing ; jutsu 
 There is no way this is the same Tobirama that was caught by Hirzuen in the freaking dark.


That's him crossing an entire mountain range in one panel.  And why would Hirzuen be able to react to a blast that can cross oceans in moments ? I mean I don't remember him having any amazing sped or reaction feats. Other then dying by the hand of Juubito.

The Juubito that blocked Tobiramas blast was faster then the Juubito that manhandled Hirzuen. You also have to take into consideration the distance. That orb would have to form, then extend through all the shiruken, and all Hirzuen was able to do was slightly move to the left. I mean really ? He still got his shoulder completely torn out.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2014)

Sasuke was capable of blitzing Itachi, with the latter's Sharingan active, in a cave pretty easily. That's among the best measures of Sasuke's speed we have.

That would suggest he could be above Hiruzen in speed. However we've got to also bear in mind that it could simply be Sasuke's Shunshin mastery. Anyone else who mastered that mainstream Ninjutsu (such as Shisui or Nagato) could probably do what Sasuke did with Shunshin; it is the same jutsu. Though Sasuke's -- and by extension Shisui's -- Sharingan might help him with it similarly to how it helps with Chidori.

Though if we're going by stats then bear in mind we've got two things which define "speed". Movement speed and reflexes. Sasuke probably surpasses an old Hiruzen on both these regards given the latter's advanced age and lack of fighting for a long time. 
I said an old Hiruzen as I'm presuming that a prime Hiruzen would be among the few who would have perfect databook scores.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 4, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Ain't nothing as Sasuke was just beaten down before hand. Get ran over by a car, and you're going to move slower.



Nope, getting hit did not make his Sharingan any less effective. And getting run over by a car is a big extreme, especially in a case of Ninjas. I've had my car totaled by another in an accident and that's not the same as being hit into water by Naruto.




> An explosion ends, Hiruzen can attack 1000 times in a row while Deidara can't. So it may block one or two hits, but it won't keep it up.



And Sasuke doesn't have to just stand there and take it. He can take one hit and then go on the offense if he wants.



> Nonsense. We saw Itachi fight multiple opponents, multiple times and never did that. That's the contradiction. Everything we saw of Juubito followed what Hiruzen said.



That was a joke, but yeah, I understand your point here.



> Yeah. Deidara's a long range fighter so his reflexes aren't going to be as good in CQC.



Doesn't matter. His stat is 4.5. The speed stat covers swiftness of movement and reactions. That means between his speed and reactions, he was considered to be in the same range as Sasuke. 



> Asuma's speed stat 4.5. Asuma's taijutsu stat 4.5.
> Hidan's speed stat 3.5. Hidan't taijutsu stat 4.5.
> We all know what happened there.



He got a scratch on his face based on the weapon Hidan was using. It's not like he knew Hidan only needed a scratch.



> Hiruzen's speed stat 3.  Hiruzen's taijutsu stat 5.  Hiruzen's genjutsu stat 5. Hiruzen's intelligence stat 5. Hiruzen's hand seal stat 5.
> Sasuke's speed stat 4.5. Sasuke's taijutsu stat 3.5. Sasuke's Genjutsu stat 4.  Sasuke's intelligence stat 3.5. Sasuke's hand seal stat 4.
> 
> Total stats- Hiruzen 34. Sasuke 31.5



The databook never added up the stats into a total. That is only Naruto wiki's doing. Not that it matters, because Kakuzu was able to pressure Kakashi to a point where he needed Team 10's help with a lower total. Kisame has a lower total than people such as Sasori and we know that he is much stronger than his total suggests. The databook never takes into account match ups and synergy of one's abilities. And it doesn't take into account summons. 



> That jutsu reacted to Tobirama's hiraishin.



To create a shield around him, yes. Tobirama had the time to say "I have a gift for you" and then it exploded not long after that. So where exactly did he extend the Jutsu into a mid ranged attack that Tobirama and Hashirama couldn't react to? 



> I didn't know I hated on Sasuke. I don't overestimate him like others. There's no bias coming from my side. If you think Sasuke is so much faster that Hiruzen can't react to him then you're bias. That's a ridiculous thing to state, I don't care who you are.



It sure seems like it. But if you don't, then I apologize.

I didn't say that actually, about Hiruzen not being able to react. However, I don't believe Hiruzen can keep up with him for long.



> I'm saying Hashi didn't say that seeing only his taijutsu. There were other factors.



Sure, but the most impressive thing he showed of his own power was his speed, yes?


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## Turrin (Jan 5, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is close to Kage level, but he is not quite there yet imo. Hebi Sasuke would more accurately be placed around the level of Top Jonin like Kakuzu, Deidara, and Kitsuchi. People using the example of Old Hiruzen to say that Sasuke is Kage level is kind of faulty. Hebi Sasuke on paper may seem more powerful on average than Old Hiruzen, but he Old Hiruzen has Shiki Fuujin. If for no other reason than Shiki Fuujin Old Hiruzen is better than Hebi Sasuke as Shiki Fuujin is so hax and nigh unavoidable that Hiruzen can beat or at least pushi many enemies further w/ Shiki Fuujin than Hebi Sasuke could not. For examples Hebi Sasuke would stand no chance against Part I Orochimaru that Old Hiruzen fought, but Old Hiruzen was able to do enough damage to Orochimaru w/ Shiki Fuujin that he was able to force Orochimaru to retreat saving the village. Many people ignore Shiki Fuujin because it simply results in a tie due to it's double edge sword nature, but that really doesn't matter when it comes to the title of Kage as a Kage is all about protecting the village and the villagers, so as long as that's accomplished really doesn't matter if the user dies. 

I also see people saying Deidara is Kage level, but he's not. Deidara is also just a Top Jonin. He has Kage Level skills, hell his Jutsu are ridiculously OP, but despite this his stupidity makes him use these skills poorly and causes him to underperform drastically to what level he should rightfully be at; thus he isn't quite Kage level. For example yes he beat Gaara who was Kazekage, but he would have lost if not for him being lucky that Gaara choose to save the village, so in any other scenario he is dead. The reasponse to this then is well Deidara also had handicaps, but Deidara did not have handicaps, he just made a choice to not properly prepare himself for the fight, which is his own dam fault. So that is a really bad excuse for the fact that Deidara would have been raped by the only Kage he went up against (who really got the position mostly due to politics), if not for getting insanely lucky. Kakashi was also raping him due to his stupidity of trying to fight so ill prepared and Sasuke nearly one-shotted him due to his stupidty of choosing to land quite close to him. Finally even as an Edo he was defeated fairly effortlessly by Sai, Kankuro, and Omoi, while you see the actual Kages going off and fighting more powerful enemies. 

Plus people act like hey you beat a Kage and you must be Kage level, but I disagree. I think Top Jonin can beat Kages, if the circumstances are correct or they are the perfect type match up for that Kage. Both of these factors aligned perfectly for Deidara against Gaara and is the only reason he wasn't massacred by Gaara. Just saying.


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## Rocky (Jan 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Both of these factors aligned perfectly for Deidara against Gaara and is the only reason he wasn't massacred by Gaara. Just saying.




_What?_

First off, the circumstances were favorable for Gaara, considering the fight location. Gaara was on his home turf and thus had the luxury of throwing around an entire desert at Deidara. Deidara used C3 to _negate that advantage_. If the fight starts in a neutral location, there's no need for that. As it stands, Deidara turned what was a disadvantage for himself into a burden for Gaara, which speaks of good intelligence anyway.

Regarding the match up, Gaara is a terrible match up for Deidara. _Terrible._ Gaara can fly and has a freaking auto shield to protect him from explosives.


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## Ersa (Jan 5, 2014)

Deidara defeated Gaara under unfavourable conditions and without his full stock of clay. A weaker Deidara was held in high esteem by the Akatsuki, whom possessed people like Pain and Itachi who are far above your regular Kage. The dude managed to outmaneuver Team Gai without arms and weakened (granted Team Gai was tired) and he's pretty smart (his tactics against Gaara, trying to lure Kakashi away from Naruto, training himself to counter Sharingan). He shits on any Jounin. Edo Deidara is weaker then living Deidara, getting completely blitzed by Sai is pathetic. Living Deidara only almost got blitzed by someone who is not only vastly faster but possesses a far superior Shunshin from closer distance.

Deidara is Kage level.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

Deidara beat Gaara the Kazekage and is an S-class criminal. He is clearly Kage level and Sasuke beat him. Kakashi in part 1 was shown to be the Elite Jounin. And Hebi Sasuke is signficantly beyond that. He is on par with Tsunade, a kage. He would beat Mei. He could do well against Gaara and maybe win.

Kishimoto made very clear what the level of Kage is. And if Mei, Tsunade, and Gaara are all kage level as is Pre Pain arc Kakashi which mean Post Fuuton training Base Naruto then anyone on that level or better is kage level.


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## Shariwin (Jan 5, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Deidara beat Gaara the Kazekage and is an S-class criminal. He is clearly Kage level and Sasuke beat him. Kakashi in part 1 was shown to be the Elite Jounin. And Hebi Sasuke is signficantly beyond that. He is on par with Tsunade, a kage. He would beat Mei. He could do well against Gaara and maybe win.
> 
> Kishimoto made very clear what the level of Kage is. And if Mei, Tsunade, and Gaara are all kage level as is Pre Pain arc Kakashi which mean Post Fuuton training Base Naruto then anyone on that level or better is kage level.



Ur dreaming dude.

Just because the Aktasuki had set up the perfect plan to beat Gaara, doesn't make Deidare > Gaara.  Also, just because Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara, in no way implies Sasuke > Gaara.   Sasuke was the worst possible matchup for Deidara!!!

This logic is completely flawed.

Deidara is Kage level, Hebi Sasuke is only Elite jounin.


Just recall what happened when Deidara went up against a Kage level opponent, in which he didn't have favorable circumstances. 
Bee pwned him, repeatedly!


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## Cromer (Jan 5, 2014)

Glad to see the Konoha Library is maintaining its shitpost/goodpost ratio


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## Dominus (Jan 5, 2014)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> succeeded at what exactly?
> 
> i said it's what she *basically* said, not what she literally said. You do know the difference between "basically" and "literally" right? God help me......
> 
> ...



What does it matter whether you said basically or literally, you were completely wrong. 
I seriously don't know who do you consider Kage-level when you don't think that the people who are the Kage are Kage-level.



> omg, the manga is chock full of them when you account for Jonin fodder, who again, doesn't have the fighting abilities of their rank. Dude, wow....smh



Give me an example of someone with feats, and why would someone let a ninja be a jounin or a chuunin if they don't deserve it?



> dude, the point still stands about how large a nuke Onoki can fire off. None of that changes what Onoki was capable of doing to that thing
> 
> i didn't forget what Deidara could do. As it just so happens, i happen to be a huge Deidara fan and i'm still of the opinion that he is not Kage lvl. I already posted the differences between him and Onoki.



And what is the difference? They have the same speed, both have large nukes and from the panels I've posted, I don't see the large difference between their attacks you're talking about.



> here's a bulletin for you:i intentionally missed it because idrgaff about it. When you are trying to base an argument like this off of fandom or reaching to make cases like how you've been doing, 9/10 i may not care to reply to it because i don't see the point in acknowledging drivel; especially when it's going to go nowhere.



I'm comparing him to the most likely weakest Kage-level shinobi, you're doing the same thing with Onoki who is the strongest of the current Gokage. 
Hiruzen who is Kage-level is weaker than Sasuke, Deidara and Gaara.


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## Shariwin (Jan 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke was capable of blitzing Itachi, with the latter's Sharingan active, in a cave pretty easily. That's among the best measures of Sasuke's speed we have.
> 
> That would suggest he could be above Hiruzen in speed. However we've got to also bear in mind that it could simply be Sasuke's Shunshin mastery. Anyone else who mastered that mainstream Ninjutsu (such as Shisui or Nagato) could probably do what Sasuke did with Shunshin; it is the same jutsu. Though Sasuke's -- and by extension Shisui's -- Sharingan might help him with it similarly to how it helps with Chidori.
> 
> ...



Hint:  That means sickly itachi is much weaker than you think, not that Sasuke is kage level.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> Hint:  That means sickly itachi is much weaker than you think, not that Sasuke is kage level.



According to Zetsu, sickness only affected Itachi's speed _slightly_ and made him cough blood (the latter didn't impact the fight prior Susanoo). So unless you believe Itachi without Susanoo *isn't* Kage level, then Hebi Sasuke is Kage level for being able to slaughter said Itachi.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> Just because the Aktasuki had set up the perfect plan to beat Gaara, doesn't make Deidare > Gaara.  Also, just because Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara, in no way implies Sasuke > Gaara.   Sasuke was the worst possible matchup for Deidara!!!
> 
> This logic is completely flawed.
> 
> ...


Perfect plan? You mean the plan where Deidara didn't bring much clay and had to fight Gaara on his home turf? Yes I would say Hebi Sasuke would beat beginning of Shippuden Gaara. But as you said ABC logic can be faulty. Deidara was a long range fighter while Sasuke is more of CQC combatant. Deidara had a hell of an advantage in his own right. Sasuke just had raiton an elemental advantage. Both sides had advantages and disadvantages.

Not really. Hebi Sasuke could beat Mid Kages like Tsunade and Gaara. He did beat Mid Kage level Deidara. He is stronger than Low Kage levels Post Fuuton Base Naruto, Immortals Arc Kakashi, and Mei.

You mean when Sasuke went up against a Kage level opponent? Cause Sasuke fought Bee. That was actually a weakened Base Sasuke that lost to Killer Bee. Not the full health Hebi Sasuke we are talking about here. So calm down.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Perfect plan? You mean the plan where Deidara didn't bring much clay and had to fight Gaara on his home turf? Yes I would say Hebi Sasuke would beat beginning of Shippuden Gaara. But as you said ABC logic can be faulty. Deidara was a long range fighter while Sasuke is more of CQC combatant. Deidara had a hell of an advantage in his own right. Sasuke just had raiton an elemental advantage. Both sides had advantages and disadvantages.


Well true, but the S/T jutsu is what saved Sasuke...and we never even got an explanation.





> Not really. Hebi Sasuke could beat Mid Kages like Tsunade and Gaara. He did beat Mid Kage level Deidara. He is stronger than Low Kage levels Post Fuuton Base Naruto, Immortals Arc Kakashi, and Mei.


Mei>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hebi Sasuke and everyone knows it. Sasuke has no counters for lava style(which causes smoke, obscures vision), Hidden mist, acid mist, and high level 1 handseal Suiton.





> You mean when Sasuke went up against a Kage level opponent? Cause Sasuke fought Bee. That was actually a weakened Base Sasuke that lost to Killer Bee. Not the full health Hebi Sasuke we are talking about here. So calm down.



And Sasuke and his team got wrecked the entire time  and Bee wasn't even trying most the time.not to mention he just got done completing an intense training regiment.

I highly doubt that Sasuke was below 90% given Karins healing abiliites aswell as Juugo's.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 5, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke could probably clear Mei's hidden mist in one shunshin, and all his ninjutsu in CS1+ is senjutsu-boosted. 

None of Mei's ninjutsu have speed feats to suggest they're hitting Sasuke accurately enough to deal serious damage either( if you don't hit him directly, he can easily tank it with his insane durability mind you).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hebi Sasuke could probably clear Mei's hidden mist in one shunshin, and all his ninjutsu in CS1+ is senjutsu-boosted.



How could he "clear" the hidden mist? 



> None of Mei's ninjutsu have speed feats to suggest they're hitting Sasuke accurately enough to deal serious damage either( if you don't hit him directly, he can easily tank it with his insane durability mind you).



Acid mist...


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## Ghost (Jan 5, 2014)

Acid mist is easily blown away with Katon: Gouryuuka.


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## Turrin (Jan 5, 2014)

Rocky said:


> _What?_
> First off, the circumstances were favorable for Gaara, considering the fight location. Gaara was on his home turf and thus had the luxury of throwing around an entire desert at Deidara. Deidara used C3 to _negate that advantage_. If the fight starts in a neutral location, there's no need for that. As it stands, Deidara turned what was a disadvantage for himself into a burden for Gaara, which speaks of good intelligence anyway.
> .


This makes no sense. Your arguing the turf was an advantage for Gaara and than proceed to talk about how it was turned into a burden for Gaara. Obviously if the location became burden than the advantages it alloted were outweighed by the disadvantages. So Gaara was disadvantage by the location.

And no I don't count this as a intelligence feat for Deidara, rather it was more a feat born of extreme luck. We have to remember that Deidara thought it was extremely unlikely that Gaara would act the way he did given his experience with prior Jinchuuriki. So Deidara basically made a desperation ploy that even he thought had little chance of working and just lucked into the fact that it did work. All of which could have very likely been avoided if Deidara simply prepared himself better before going to attack Gaara in the first place, which was due to his own stupidity.



> Regarding the match up, Gaara is a terrible match up for Deidara. Terrible. Gaara can fly and has a freaking auto shield to protect him from explosives.


No dude Deidara is a terrible match up for Gaara, especially in the desert. Why because Gaara's main fighting style is battlefield control and creating (or using) a desert underneath his enemies to ensnare them in attacks. This is why most people consider Gaara in the desert nigh unbeatable as he controls the entire ground that someone walks on and can cause massive Tsunami's to cover the entire ground -- etc... Deidara circumvents all of this through his high speed flight. Additionally Gaara's second greatest attribute is his ultimate defense, Deidara is one of the few fighters in the Naruto world with attacks powerful enough to push Gaara's defenses so extensively as Deidara happens to be a raw power beast. You combine these two factors and Deidara can push Gaara a-lot further than someone of Deidara's level conventionally could.

On the flip side of this Gaara being able to fly only means he has a method of attacking Deidara (despite Deidara's flight), something that pretty much all Kages possess. If Gaara didn't have this the advantages of Deidara would just be even more extreme.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Well true, but the S/T jutsu is what saved Sasuke...and we never even got an explanation.
> 
> Mei>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hebi Sasuke and everyone knows it. Sasuke has no counters for lava style(which causes smoke, obscures vision), Hidden mist, acid mist, and high level 1 handseal Suiton.
> 
> ...


True. But the point I mean is that the fight was at the very least a draw. A draw with a Mid Kage level would make someone on that level in my eyes.

You're high. I see a Post Fuuton Naruto or an Immortals Arc Kakashi taking down Mei. Hebi Sasuke should too. He can just avoid it like Karin and Madara showed to be able to do. With his speed and sharingan he should be able to avoid all of that. Of course, he will have to fight against it but I can see him pulling it off if he can fight superior shinobi like Deidara.

I mean yeah I  understand that. But Killer Bee is a HIGH kage level. And that was a weakened Sasuke with a MS genjutsu. That is not Hebi Sasuke. And Since Killer Bee is so far up on the scale of Kage level losing him doesn't mean anything in this context of being kage level.

No idea. But the main point is that we are talking about Hebi Sasuke not Base Sasuke. The weakened part is just supplementary to the my main argument. Base Sasuke at the time was likely Elite Jounin level. But Hebi Sasuke is quite a bit stronger than that.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 5, 2014)

^ Killer Bee really isn't  a  kage with his abilities. Killer Bee can fight multiple kage at the same time imo pending on who they are.



> How could he "clear" the hidden mist?


shunshin out of it.

If Mei camps inside of it Sasuke preps Kirin and oneshots Mei's vicinity. 

If she comes out of it Sasuke dismantles her head-to-head.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Acid mist is easily blown away with Katon: Gouryuuka.



Katon's do not blow the mist away. We saw explosions don't affect the mist. Katon's won't do anything different.



Rosencrantz said:


> True. But the point I mean is that the fight was at the very least a draw. A draw with a Mid Kage level would make someone on that level in my eyes.



But it doesn't mean anything. Naruto isn't an A>B>C manga. You have to account for abilities and weaknesses. Sasuke was the perfect matchup for Deidara. Do you think Sasuke would have that kind of fight against Kakuza? Kakuza would destroy him because Sasuke isn't tailor-made for fighting Kakuza.



> You're high. I see a Post Fuuton Naruto or an Immortals Arc Kakashi taking down Mei. Hebi Sasuke should too. He can just avoid it like Karin and Madara showed to be able to do. With his speed and sharingan he should be able to avoid all of that. Of course, he will have to fight against it but I can see him pulling it off if he can fight superior shinobi like Deidara.



Her AoE is huge. She casually did a suiton to block MADARA'S katon, and then one right off the bat the bigger than his susanoo and tossed him. He has nothing to live through lava style. Acid mist would easily kill him.



> I mean yeah I  understand that. But Killer Bee is a HIGH kage level. And that was a weakened Sasuke with a MS genjutsu. That is not Hebi Sasuke. And Since Killer Bee is so far up on the scale of Kage level losing him doesn't mean anything in this context of being kage level.



Sasuke had a whole team backing him up and he was still nothing. He was still as fast as Hebi Sasuke and as skilled in taijutsu. He only lost oral rebirth, snake jutsu, and cs. Do you think any of those would have made a difference?



> No idea. But the main point is that we are talking about Hebi Sasuke not Base Sasuke. The weakened part is just supplementary to the my main argument. Base Sasuke at the time was likely Elite Jounin level. But Hebi Sasuke is quite a bit stronger than that.



LOL. The Sasuke that started against Bee wouldn't stand a chance against Asuma, Kankuro, nor Zabuza. Those are high jounin in my book.



Lawrence777 said:


> ^ Killer Bee really isn't  a  kage with his abilities. Killer Bee can fight multiple kage at the same time imo pending on who they are.



I hope you not calling Hebi Sasuke kage level and saying Bee isn't.



> shunshin out of it.
> 
> If Mei camps inside of it Sasuke preps Kirin and oneshots Mei's vicinity.
> 
> If she comes out of it Sasuke dismantles her head-to-head.



Shunsin out of it? Like Mei will let him. It's a huge AoE and with her suitons, he ain't going anywhere.

Sasuke needed a forest on fire with amaterasu.

She blows acid mist, or lava and Sasuke's dead.


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## Tapion (Jan 5, 2014)

Deidara is a solid kage level, what the fuck are you people smoking?


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> But it doesn't mean anything. Naruto isn't an A>B>C manga. You have to account for abilities and weaknesses. Sasuke was the perfect matchup for Deidara. Do you think Sasuke would have that kind of fight against Kakuza? Kakuza would destroy him because Sasuke isn't tailor-made for fighting Kakuza.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It does mean something. An Elite Jounin level isn't taking down Mid Kage levels in this manga. Deidara had the advantage in long range combat and huge explosions to nullify his speed advantage. Deidara had the advantage of Tobi putting down his mines. Sasuke had an elemental advantage. Deidara had other advantages of his own. Chidori eisou splitting into 5 different parts could be deadly to his hearts. And Hebi Sasuke would likely beat Kakuzu.

Doesn't mean he can not dodge attacks with large AoE. Combined with CS2 durability. Sasuke was extremely fast even in base. He can dodge and potentially tank suitons. He can avoid the yonton. As he could the mist which isn't as effective outdoors as most fights take place.

CS enhances speed though cause its pseudo-SM. Yes. Hebi Sasuke is far superior to weakened Base Sasuke with a MS genjutsu. If you are asking me whether I think that Sasuke is inferior to Hebi Sasuke then the answer is yes.

Base Sasuke with MS genjutsu would defeat all of those people. Make the thread if you'd like.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> It does mean something. An Elite Jounin level isn't taking down Mid Kage levels in this manga. Deidara had the advantage in long range combat and huge explosions to nullify his speed advantage. Deidara had the advantage of Tobi putting down his mines. Sasuke had an elemental advantage. Deidara had other advantages of his own. Chidori eisou splitting into 5 different parts could be deadly to his hearts. And Hebi Sasuke would likely beat Kakuzu.



He was specifically built to fight Deidara. Everything about him was a counter to Deidara. Like if you put Zabuza against an Tsunade. He's not kage level by any means yet he would look great in that fight because he's a complete counter to her. 
You're assuming Sasuke would know about the 5 hearts, which he wouldn't. Don't forget about Kakuzu's abilities in cqc either, he's a monster.



> Doesn't mean he can not dodge attacks with large AoE. Combined with CS2 durability. Sasuke was extremely fast even in base. He can dodge and potentially tank suitons. He can avoid the yonton. As he could the mist which isn't as effective outdoors as most fights take place.



Not fast enough to get out of the mist while dodging Mei's casual suitons that are bigger than susanoo. It's hard to dodge something you can't see.



> CS enhances speed though cause its pseudo-SM. Yes. Hebi Sasuke is far superior to weakened Base Sasuke with a MS genjutsu. If you are asking me whether I think that Sasuke is inferior to Hebi Sasuke then the answer is yes.



CS slows the person down.



> Base Sasuke with MS genjutsu would defeat all of those people. Make the thread if you'd like.



No he wouldn't. Asuma would have his head cut off way before he got the chance. Mist counters MS. Kankuro's puppets would keep him at a safe distance and wreck Sasuke.


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## Ersa (Jan 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> CS slows the person down.


Only Kimimaro's CS2 slows him down (which you noted), his CS1 enhanced his speed to the point where he could casually react to a Drunk Lee that was previously catching him off guard. Likewise Sasuke's CS1 sped him up to blitz a Soundnin who could previously tag Lee who was faster then non-CS Sasuke and his CS2 was never stated to have the same drawback as Kimimaro's. So I don't get this CS slows you down theory personally.

Sasuke compared the pre-cognition boost he got as being similar to a CS1-boost in reflexes.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2014)

Kimimaro's CS2 slowing him down was also stated to because he hadn't adapted to the transformed body.

Sasuke was stated to have mastered the Curse Seal, so his CS2 would logically be faster than his CS1.

The same is presumably true for Jūgo as well.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 5, 2014)

DatScizor said:


> Deidara is a solid kage level, what the fuck are you people smoking?



I know, right?

Cancer posts in the Cancerdome.



Turrin said:


> Hebi Sasuke is close to Kage level, but he is not quite there yet imo.



What the fuck? 

No, Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara and went after Itachi *alone*. Orochimaru said he was much stronger than three-tailed Naruto before he even stole Orochimaru's powers. Yamato's entire squad was helpless against him. He was definitely Kage-level.



> Hebi Sasuke would more accurately be placed around the level of Top Jonin like Kakuzu, Deidara, and Kitsuchi.



Deidara is stronger than both Kakuzu and Kitsuchi combined; he's a solid mid tier Kage-level, stronger than Tsunade, Gaara, and Oonoki.



> People using the example of Old Hiruzen to say that Sasuke is Kage level is kind of faulty. *Hebi Sasuke on paper may seem more powerful on average than Old Hiruzen*,



That's because he is.



> but he Old Hiruzen has Shiki Fuujin. If for no other reason than Shiki Fuujin Old Hiruzen is better than Hebi Sasuke as Shiki Fuujin is so hax and nigh unavoidable that Hiruzen can beat or at least pushi many enemies further w/ Shiki Fuujin than Hebi Sasuke could not.
> 
> For examples Hebi Sasuke would stand no chance against Part I Orochimaru that Old Hiruzen fought, but Old Hiruzen was able to do enough damage to Orochimaru w/ Shiki Fuujin that he was able to force Orochimaru to retreat saving the village.



Hebi Sasuke would beat part 1 Orochimaru; Sauce has superior physical stats with the Juin, he has Sharingan, and he has Raiton to cut through everything Orochimaru throws at him. If Sasuke can set up Kirin on his own, that's a definite game over.



> Many people ignore Shiki Fuujin because it simply results in a tie due to it's double edge sword nature, but that really doesn't matter when it comes to the title of Kage as a Kage is all about protecting the village and the villagers, so as long as that's accomplished really doesn't matter if the user dies.



Shiki Fujin would be useless against Sasuke nine times out of ten due to Sasuke's superior speed, Sharingan, and ability to just bisect Hiruzen with a Raiton lance. And Hiruzen failed to defeat Orochimaru with it, anyway.



> I also see people saying Deidara is Kage level, but he's not. Deidara is also just a Top Jonin. He has Kage Level skills, hell his Jutsu are ridiculously OP, but despite this his stupidity makes him use these skills poorly and causes him to underperform drastically to what level he should rightfully be at; thus he isn't quite Kage level.



That's PIS/CIS.

Deidara himself, because of his abilities, is Kage-level.

You also seem to be looking at Deidara's recent performances rather than his early ones. He handled himself rather brilliantly against Gaara and against Gai's and Kakashi's teams; he managed to get out of a situation with the latter that most Kage-level shinobi would've been killed in, and he nearly took out an entire squad in the process.

It's true that Deidara's competence is variable, but only based on Kishi's whims, and that goes for every character in this series. If you're going to say Deidara isn't Kage-level for that reasoning, then you might as well say that Naruto isn't Kage-level, either.



> For example yes he beat Gaara who was Kazekage, but he would have lost if not for him being lucky that Gaara choose to save the village, so in any other scenario he is dead.



You're ignoring the terrain advantage Gaara had by fighting in the village; the only reason Deidara attacked Sunagakure was to divert Gaara's extra sand and force him to defend with the Absolute Defense sand, which had been laced with C1.

Deidara won that fight fair and square by strategically eliminating his opponent's advantage, and he did it with only a fraction of his true capabilities.



> The reasponse to this then is well Deidara also had handicaps, but Deidara did not have handicaps, he just made a choice to not properly prepare himself for the fight, which is his own dam fault.



That IS a handicap; it doesn't matter if it was his fault. He came without his full power available, which implicitly means he has more power to bring to a fight if he prepares correctly. He proved this against Sasuke.

Even so, and underprepared Deidara is STILL Kage-level; he can beat someone like Gaara with just C1, and C3 can wipe out an entire village if someone with a big-ass Jutsu doesn't stop it.



> So that is a really bad excuse for the fact that Deidara would have been raped by the only Kage he went up against



Actually, Deidara would've beaten Gaara if they hadn't fought in the desert.

With only a conservative supply of C1.



> (who really got the position mostly due to politics),



What a bullshit cop-out.

Gaara stopped his village from getting nuked, which is something a good number of Kage could not do. He has every material right to be called "Kage-level," and the fact that he is a Kage implicitly extends the meaning of that range to encompass him.

Kage-level is defined as anything from the weakest Kage to the strongest Kage, which means it is _relative_. You don't just get to pick and choose which Kage qualify, as that defeats the point of judging the level by the rank.

Gaara's not even the weakest Kage, though; some misguided individuals actually think he stands a chance against Itachi, of all people. Mei and old Hiruzen are the weakest.

This is just a transparent attempt on your part to downplay Deidara by transference.



> if not for getting insanely lucky.



Luck had nothing to do with it; Deidara got injured by Gaara's sand and used the opportunity to set up a trap. He won the fight by skill.



> Kakashi was also raping him due to his stupidity of trying to fight so ill prepared



Kakashi couldn't even touch him without Kamui.



> and Sasuke nearly one-shotted him due to his stupidty of choosing to land quite close to him.



Sasuke failed to one-shot him.



> Finally even as an Edo he was defeated fairly effortlessly by Sai, Kankuro, and Omoi, while you see the actual Kages going off and fighting more powerful enemies.



Every single person who read that fight knows it was plot induced stupidity. Deidara could've wiped out that entire squad by himself if he hadn't been so needlessly arrogant; that same bomb he used to flip the island turtle would've glassed the whole battlefield.



> Plus people act like hey you beat a Kage and you must be Kage level, but I disagree. I think Top Jonin can beat Kages, if the circumstances are correct or they are the perfect type match up for that Kage. Both of these factors aligned perfectly for Deidara against Gaara and is the only reason he wasn't massacred by Gaara. Just saying.



You just said Gaara was Kage-level because of politics. Contradicting yourself now?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> According to Zetsu, sickness only affected Itachi's speed _slightly_ and made him cough blood (the latter didn't impact the fight prior Susanoo). So unless you believe Itachi without Susanoo *isn't* Kage level, then Hebi Sasuke is Kage level for being able to slaughter said Itachi.



Zetsu didn't say "slightly"; he said Itachi must have been "severely" injured. If the difference is between dodging an attack and not dodging an attack, that doesn't indicate anything slight.



Eliyua23 said:


> 1. Who are these Kages that Killer Bee can defeat because maybe other than Tsunade a primarily support ninja and Ei who relies to much on CQC I see most Kage defeating him



Mei, Hiruzen, Oonoki, Gaara, Gaara's dad, Tsunade, Tobirama, Muu, 2nd Mizukage, Danzou, possibly the 4th Raikage.

Pretty much any Kage other than Hashirama loses to Killer B's Bijuu Mode. Tobirama _might_ be able to beat it, but he doesn't have the feats to back that up. Minato would have to use Shiki Fujin, which makes it a draw. 3rd Raikage was proven to stalemate the Hachibi, so at best he stalemates B; Samehada could give B the edge against the 3rd.

Killer B is stronger than the vast majority of Kage, with the exception of an elite few.



> 2. You mean  if using your strongest technique at the cost of your own life against an enemy who cant use jutsu is blowing your nose then yeah,



Yeah, Itachi did it completely effortlessly; what killed him was the chakra he had already spent fighting Sasuke and the continuous drain imposed by Susano'o, whereas Orochimaru gave him no resistance to speak of. If you take away the entire fight that happened before Orochimaru showed up, Itachi would've basically wasted him in a matter of panels and gone about his business like nothing happened. Just like the previous time.



> 3. Itachi was definitely a  mid-high Kage level fighter mainly due to Susanoo but he couldn't sustain Susanoo long enough due to his illness, he's similar to Pain Arc Naruto who with SM was high Kage but because of the 4 time limit he couldn't sustain that level for long



Itachi is high Kage-level; he doesn't need to maintain Susano'o for a long time because that's not his only dangerous Jutsu. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are enough to make him Kage-level. Hell, even his basic Genjutsu is strong enough to make him Kage-level; Jonin-level Genjutsu specialists like Kurenai and Kabuto fall utterly short in comparison--and, unlike them, Itachi actually has the Taijutsu and Ninjutsu skill of a Kage-level to complement his Genjutsu specialty.



> 4. SIck Itachi was at least a tier stronger than Hebi Sasuke, most people say its just due to Susanoo but we don't know where Itachi was holding back or going all out , we were told he was pulling his punches the whole fight



I agree.

That said, Hebi Sasuke still did a lot better than Orochimaru or Kakashi.



> Hebi Sauce , Deidara were both significantly weaker than Sick Itachi



I agree. They are also both mid tier Kage-level.



> As for comparing Hebi Sauce to MS Sasuke , MS Sasuke didn't become Kage level until he was able to use Susanoo and fight on par with a Kage (Ei) before that he was probably on par or slightly weaker than his Hebi form



MS Sasuke was far weaker than Hebi Sasuke until he awakened Susano'o.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Zetsu didn't say "slightly"; he said Itachi must have been "severely" injured. If the difference is between dodging an attack and not dodging an attack, that doesn't indicate anything slight.



He said Itachi was "severely" injured *only* because he started coughing blood everywhere. As for the movement, he based it on how Itachi dodged a rigged shuriken; only a slight difference in Itachi's condition would've made a difference.


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## Ersa (Jan 5, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is low Kage level on stats alone. 

Please name me a Jounin that can fight Killer B in CQC *while weakened* and then move fast enough to dodge said character with a V1 shroud? Then augment that said character with a Sage boost that allowed him to blitz an opponent who tagged an opponent who blitzed him without the said Sage boost. He also boasts Chidori variants that even the Raikage finds impressive, a mountain-busting attack, 2 boss summons, a brain and genjutsu prowess that one-shot genjutsu specialists. 

I'm sure Asuma can achieve these feats


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## Bonly (Jan 5, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is low Kage level on stats alone.

Please name me a Jounin that can fight Killer B in CQC while weakened and then move fast enough to dodge said character with a V1 shroud? Then augment that said character with a Sage boost that allowed him to blitz an opponent who tagged an opponent who blitzed him without the said Sage boost. He also boasts Chidori variants that even the Raikage finds impressive, a mountain-busting attack, 2 boss summons, a brain and genjutsu prowess that one-shot genjutsu specialists.

I'm sure Asuma can achieve these feats


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## Turrin (Jan 5, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> No, Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara and went after Itachi *alone*. Orochimaru said he was much stronger than three-tailed Naruto before he even stole Orochimaru's powers. Yamato's entire squad was helpless against him. He was definitely Kage-level.


- Deidara isn't Kage level, he's too stupid.
- Sasuke thought he could take Itachi; he was horribly wrong. This shows nothing, but Sasuke overestimating himself as he is one to do.
- Orochimaru's boasts are legitimate measures of power now lol. Plus I doubt a start of Part II Naruto, even if allowed to go KN3 is beating any Kage anyway.
- Yamato's Squad Kage level 



> Deidara is stronger than both Kakuzu and Kitsuchi combined;


Yeah the guy who at his strongest and had back up got fodderized by Kankuro, Omoi, and Sai is beating Kakuzu + Kitsuchi 



> he's a solid mid tier Kage-level


Yeah the guy who at his strongest and had back up got fodderized by Kankuro, Omoi, and Sai is mid tier Kage-level 



> stronger than Tsunade, Gaara, and Oonoki.


While Gaara, Tsunade, and Onoki were off fighting legendary Kages and Uchiha Madara; Deidara was getting his ass handed to him by Kankuro, Omoi, and Sai. I wounder who Kishimoto considers the better Ninja 



> Hebi Sasuke would beat part 1 Orochimaru; Sauce has superior physical stats with the Juin, he has Sharingan, and he has Raiton to cut through everything Orochimaru throws at him. If Sasuke can set up Kirin on his own, that's a definite game over.


Even Hebi Sasuke and his teammates know he's weaker than Orochimaru:
slows
slows

Now your saying he'd beat an Orochimaru who is in total control over the battlefield and has Edo Tensei prepped  

Sasuke tried cutting up Orochimaru before and even a heavily weakened Orochimaru laughed it off:
slows
slows

Kirin wouldn't even work as S4 Barrier is in the way and Hebi Sasuke has no way to even defeat Edo Tensei. Expecting Hebi Sasuke to do better than Hiruzen in that scenario is a pipe dream.



> Shiki Fujin would be useless against Sasuke nine times out of ten due to Sasuke's superior speed.


Hiruzen managed to catch Orochimaru in Shiki Fuujin quite easily despite Orochimaru having the same speed stat as Sasuke in the DB and having the benefit of seeing Hiruzen's KB use Shiki Fuujin previously against the Edo Hokages. Not to mention Hiruzen's speed has clearly been retecon'd by Kishimoto anyway to fit Part II standards, as now we see Hiruzen reacting to Juubobito's attack and keeping pace w/ Tobirama/Hashirama (& Sasuke) when they were racing to the Alliance battle (only out paced by Minato who was the fastest). So Kishi made him even faster now. Not to mention Hiruzen has KB (that don't disperse when hit) who can be used to tag Sasuke or aid in tagging Sasuke as he won't have to sacrifice them on sealing the Edo Hokages as he did in the Orochimaru duel; and he has Enma to also aid in this regard



> Sharingan


. 
If it's that much of a problem Hiruzen can do to Sasuke what J-man did to Pain. He can have a KB use a large Katon against Sasuke blocking his LOS, while he, enma, and potentially another KB flank him:
slows
slows



> and ability to just bisect Hiruzen with a Raiton lance.


If an extending sword could take Hiruzen down so easily Orochimaru would have instantly killed him w/ Ksunagi. Enma would block it as he blocked the Ksunagi Sword. Tho you'll probably say some shit like Chidori Eisou is hyped to have better cutting power than Ksunagi, but I'd like to see where it's hype as being able to cut Diamonds like Ksunagi sword is or where it's hyped as being able to cut through adamantium like Enma's staff is suppose to be as durable as. 



> And Hiruzen failed to defeat Orochimaru with it, anyway.


He succeeded in weakening Orochimaru to the point where he needed to retreat thus saving the village, which is the Kages Job and all that matters as Hiruzen being the Kage. We also must acknowledge that Kishimoto said Hiruzen and Orochimaru were equally matched in the fanbook, anyway, so Hiruzen's loss and Orochimaru pseudo victory, is clearly supoose to be seen as a product of circumstances favoring Orochimaru anyway:




> That's PIS/CIS.
> 
> Deidara himself, because of his abilities, is Kage-level.
> 
> You also seem to be looking at Deidara's recent performances rather than his early ones.


I agree it is PIS/CIS, but if Kishi keeps PIS/CIS Deidara so he looses that should tell you Kishi doesn't want him to be considered above a certain level, hence he PIS/CIS so he looses despite his abilities being better than that. Hence he's not Kage level due to Kishi making him so stupid (or arrogant to the point of stupidity) all the time. Remember i'm speaking about Deidara's level in relation to the manga cannon; not fan fiction land where Deidara uses his abilities to peak efficiency.



> s. He handled himself rather brilliantly against Gaara


Yes going in w/o enough clay despite Sasori telling him not and than just getting extremely lucky that Gaara choose to save the village instead of fodderizing him. Yes how brilliant of him. 



> and against Gai's and Kakashi's teams; he managed to get out of a situation with the latter that most Kage-level shinobi would've been killed in, and he nearly took out an entire squad in the process.


Yes Deidara trying to fight w/o almost any clay and missing an arm the nine-tails Jin and him getting lucky that Kakashi was around to stop Naruto from rampaging, as otherwise he would have been fodderized by KN4. Yes how brilliant of him 



> It's true that Deidara's competence is variable, but only based on Kishi's whims, and that goes for every character in this series. If you're going to say Deidara isn't Kage-level for that reasoning, then you might as well say that Naruto isn't Kage-level, either.


Naruto (w/ back up) at his strongest point in the series wasn't fodderized by Sai, Omoi, and Kankuro due to his stupidty. 



> You're ignoring the terrain advantage Gaara had by fighting in the village; the only reason Deidara attacked Sunagakure was to divert Gaara's extra sand and force him to defend with the Absolute Defense sand, which had been laced with C1.


Terrian gave Gaara some advantages, but in the end it was more of an disadvantage than an advantage. It's that simple.



> Deidara won that fight fair and square by strategically eliminating his opponent's advantage, and he did it with only a fraction of his true capabilities.


Yeah holding a village hostage, that's really fair and square 



> That IS a handicap; it doesn't matter if it was his fault. He came without his full power available, which implicitly means he has more power to bring to a fight if he prepares correctly. He proved this against Sasuke.


Yeah It makes total sense that if a Ninja is too stupid to procure certain resources he fights w/ to than turn around and try to pass that off as a him being handicapped 

Plus it's not like Gaara had prep-time to go off and prep for the battle, his village was just straight up ambushed in the dead of night. So why is Deidara not having the advantage of prior prep even treated like handicap?


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## Turrin (Jan 5, 2014)

> Even so, and underprepared Deidara is STILL Kage-level; he can beat someone like Gaara with just C1, and C3 can wipe out an entire village if someone with a big-ass Jutsu doesn't stop it.


Kages at their absolute strongest w/ back up don't get fodderized by Sai, Omoi, and Kankuro. 

Plus I'd like to know where in Kishi's manga it says beating a Kage through sheer dumb luck and type match up makes you Kage level :rofl

Not to mention Gaara was mostly a figurehead at the time, so who knows if he really was Kage level.



> Actually, Deidara would've beaten Gaara if they hadn't fought in the desert.
> 
> With only a conservative supply of C1.


Deidara had no way to get past Gaara's ultimate defense, which was shown easily blocking his C1, he only was able to expose that opening due to dropping C3 on the village. What's more Deidara was down to a single C1 attack at that time, meaning he was on the verge of being easily outlasted by Gaara's ultimate defense, if not for that final gambit:
slows



> What a bullshit cop-out..


No the bullshit cop-out is saying anyone who holds the position is Kage level, even if they didn't get the position due to their own merits as a ninja. That's like saying if Konohamaru inherited a billion dollars from Hiruzen and than bribed everyone to be elected Hokage, that all of suddenly people would only need to be Konohamaru level, to qualify as Kage level. It's a comp[letely disingenuous way to look at things.




> Gaara's not even the weakest Kage, though; some misguided individuals actually think he stands a chance against Itachi, of all people. Mei and old Hiruzen are the weakest.
> 
> This is just a transparent attempt on your part to downplay Deidara by transference.


Current Gaara is not the weakest Kage. Who knows how strong Part II Gaara was outside the desert. 



> Luck had nothing to do with it; Deidara got injured by Gaara's sand and used the opportunity to set up a trap. He won the fight by skill.


It wasn't luck that Gaara choose to save the village, when if he choose not to Deidara would be dead, even though Deidara later acknowledged that he didn't expect a Jinchuuriki to act that way. It wasn't luck that Deidara just so happened to have the single C1 attack left needed to set up his plan after putting his clay in Gaara's gourd sand. 



> Kakashi couldn't even touch him without Kamui.


Kakashi clearly indicated that there were two ways he could deal w/ Deidara; w/ Long Range Jutsu or Shikka style tactics. He possessed both and simply choose to use Long range Jutsu, which he raped Deidara w/:
Link removed
Link removed



> Sasuke failed to one-shot him.


Because Obito saved Deidara's ass.



> Every single person who read that fight knows it was plot induced stupidity. Deidara could've wiped out that entire squad by himself if he hadn't been so needlessly arrogant; that same bomb he used to flip the island turtle would've glassed the whole battlefield.


If Kishi is making him that stupid enough where he can be fodderized by those guys, that tells you Kishi does not consider the guy up there w/ Kages.



> You just said Gaara was Kage-level because of politics. Contradicting yourself now?


I said politics gave him the position whether he was Kage level or not is debatable, because we never got to see much from him in early part II and nothing from outside the desert. The fact that he was nominated due to politics however easily opens the door for him to not be Kage level despite possessing the title. 

Ether way you are clearly trying to proactively ignore the point that there is nothing that says an incredibly skilled Jonin like a Kitsuchi, Kakuzu, or a Deidara couldn't defeat a Kage under the right circumstances without being Kage level themselves; not a dam thing.


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 5, 2014)

Any of the current Kages except Gaara would wreck Hebi Sasuke 1-1


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## IchLiebe (Jan 5, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Any of the current Kages except Gaara would wreck Hebi Sasuke 1-1



Gaara would ABSOLUTELY FUCKING RAPE Hebi Sasuke. The stomp would be too horrid to even watch.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke would defeat Tsunade, Gaara, Ōnoki, or Mei in normal circumstances. (Go ahead, guys. Make these threads. I'll debate you.)

A is just a good match-up because his durability, speed, and piercing punches check Hebi Sasuke's strengths.

Manda or Aoda, Oral Rebirth, superior tactical intelligence, and the Curse Seal amping his reflexes would help a lot though, so A would have to work a bit.

~

Turrin, wtf? Deidara was *much* smarter and more tactical than *any* of the Gokage in both of his battles. 

He outsmarted Gaara with trickery, and was extremely careful and prepared against Sasuke (clones, distance calculations, etc.)

A is dumb as a rock and Tsunade spends most of her matches raging, and I don't see you claiming that they're not Kage level.

Obito called Deidara's jutsu "terrifying," and Kabuto respected Deidara's ability to use it above his own.

In terms of being a skilled and intelligent individual, he's easily above any of the Gokage (barring perhaps Ōnoki,) as is Hebi Sasuke.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> He was specifically built to fight Deidara. Everything about him was a counter to Deidara. Like if you put Zabuza against an Tsunade. He's not kage level by any means yet he would look great in that fight because he's a complete counter to her.
> You're assuming Sasuke would know about the 5 hearts, which he wouldn't. Don't forget about Kakuzu's abilities in cqc either, he's a monster.
> 
> 
> ...


Just the raiton aspect to help nullify his bombs and sharingan to see C4. As I said Deidara had advantages of his own. It would be a good fight against Kakuzu just saying I think Hebi Sasuke would win more times than not. Let's not go off on that tangent ha.

Don't see why not. One of the faster characters in the manga. I do not know if she has silent killing ability i.e. make the mist so thick you can't see and then go for the kill. Worse comes to worse he can summon. And it is not like he will sit there and do nothing.

CS1 speeds them up. Kimmimaro's CS2 specifically slows him down. CS1 speeding them up comes into play because of CS1 Sasuke's ability to seemingly blitz a Base Naruto while Base Sasuke could not. VotE.

Again make the thread if you want but Base Sasuke even back then is taking down Asuma, Kankurou, and Zabuza individually. For Asuma alone dealing with genjutsu will be problematic. Kankurou may be able to stay away but Sasuke's genjutsu range is long. Zabuza can counter genjutsu. Yet Sasuke can summon a snake who can sense around them without their sight. And then bind him and finish with chidori.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke would defeat Tsunade, Gaara, Ōnoki, or Mei in normal circumstances. (Go ahead, guys. Make these threads. I'll debate you.)


Ok calm down. He would beat Mei. He would definitely lose to Oonoki. Tsunade/Gaara could go either way.

A is a bad match up as you already said.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 5, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Gaara would ABSOLUTELY FUCKING RAPE Hebi Sasuke. The stomp would be too horrid to even watch.



Gaara has almost no chance of beating Hebi Sasuke, who can penetrate his sand with Raiton.



Gilgamesh said:


> Any of the current Kages except Gaara would wreck Hebi Sasuke 1-1



Mei would get destroyed by Hebi Sasuke.

Oonoki and Tsunade are pretty debatable, as well.



Turrin said:


> Kages at their absolute strongest w/ back up don't get fodderized by Sai, Omoi, and Kankuro.



Neither does Deidara, "at his absolute strongest."



> Plus I'd like to know where in Kishi's manga it says beating a Kage through sheer dumb luck and type match up makes you Kage level :rofl



Deidara beat Gaara through superior skill and strategy.



> Not to mention Gaara was mostly a figurehead at the time, so who knows if he really was Kage level.



That is ridiculous. Gaara was a Kage, therefore he was Kage-level; the term "Kage-level" reflects the strength of everyone who is or ever has been a Kage.

I'll also point out that Mei and Gaara's dad are both weaker than Gaara, yet also Kage. The latter was able to subdue a Bijuu, and Gaara himself stopped C3 from wiping out his whole village. They are deserving of their titles, but evidently you don't care about that because you don't want to acknowledge that Deidara is Kage-level, which is probably rooted in your refusal to acknowledge that Hebi Sasuke is Kage-level. I don't know what your reasoning for that is, but I don't particularly care, either; it's abundantly clear that Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, and pre-extraction Gaara were all Kage-level--chiefly because Gaara was, in fact, a Kage.



> Deidara had no way to get past Gaara's ultimate defense, which was shown easily blocking his C1, he only was able to expose that opening due to dropping C3 on the village.



You're mistaken.

C3 was to divert the extra desert sand. That way, Gaara would have to defend with the Absolute Defense, which Deidara concealed his C1 inside.

Take away Sunagakure and Deidara no longer has any reason to drop C3, and Gaara no longer has a desert to weaponize or a village to protect. The end result is still Gaara getting blown the fuck up with C1 when he defends with his gourd sand.



> What's more Deidara was down to a single C1 attack at that time, meaning he was on the verge of being easily outlasted by Gaara's ultimate defense, if not for that final gambit:
> slows



Deidara's trick of hiding C1 in Gaara's Absolute Defense was a fair tactic, so I don't see why that should be held against him. Gaara COULD have outlasted Deidara...but he *didn't*.



> No the bullshit cop-out is saying anyone who holds the position is Kage level, even if they didn't get the position due to their own merits as a ninja.



You're the only one saying Gaara didn't get the position due to his own merits as a ninja. The manga never says that, and you are only saying it to suit your own interests, which is dishonest as hell.



> That's like saying if Konohamaru inherited a billion dollars from Hiruzen and than bribed everyone to be elected Hokage, that all of suddenly people would only need to be Konohamaru level, to qualify as Kage level.



If Konohamaru became a Kage, then "Kage-level" would extend to include Konohamaru as well. He would be an extreme outlier and he would cheapen the title, however, he would technically be a Kage, so we would say that anyone as strong as or stronger than him would be Kage-level. That's what it means to be Kage-level.

However, there's a crucial problem with this hypothetical scenario: It would never happen. You don't become Kage that way; you become Kage by being one of the strongest, most experienced, and most competent ninja in the village. The reason "Kage-level" means something is because only people truly deserving of the title get to bear it; it isn't something they just hand out to anyone.



> It's a comp[letely disingenuous way to look at things.



1. You evidently don't know what "disingenuous" means, because you're misusing it.

2. It's ironic that you would use the word in that sentence when you yourself are, in fact, being incredibly disingenuous.



> Current Gaara is not the weakest Kage.



Neither was pre-extraction Gaara.



> Who knows how strong Part II Gaara was outside the desert.



Evidently strong enough to injure and then lose to an underprepared Deidara using only C1.



> It wasn't luck that Gaara choose to save the village, when if he choose not to Deidara would be dead, even though Deidara later acknowledged that he didn't expect a Jinchuuriki to act that way.



It wasn't luck; Deidara attacked the village precisely so Gaara would defend it with the desert sand. Take away the village, and Gaara doesn't have a desert. Take away the desert, and Deidara doesn't need to use C3 while Gaara still loses to the same C1 trick.



> It wasn't luck that Deidara just so happened to have the single C1 attack left needed to set up his plan after putting his clay in Gaara's gourd sand.



It was pure skill; the fact that it came down to the wire and the fact that Deidara would've been SOL if it failed doesn't change that. Gaara didn't know there were bombs in his sand and Deidara successfully forced Gaara to bring it in close to protect himself. It was a close fight, but not due to luck.



> Kakashi clearly indicated that there were two ways he could deal w/ Deidara; w/ Long Range Jutsu or Shikka style tactics. He possessed both and simply choose to use Long range Jutsu, which he raped Deidara w/:
> slows
> slows



That's funny, 'cause Kakashi failed to beat Deidara; he injured him, then missed, then had to use his last remaining Kamui on Deidara's Jibaku Bunshin.



> Because Obito saved Deidara's ass.



Obito distracted him in the first place.

Deidara reacted to Sasuke's first blitz no sweat, and he reacted to Obito's warning when Sasuke was within striking range already.



> If Kishi is making him that stupid enough where he can be fodderized by those guys, that tells you Kishi does not consider the guy up there w/ Kages.



No, that tells me that YOU do not consider the guy Kage-level. Kishimoto having him capture a Kage and almost wipe out an entire village tells me he is very comfortably Kage-level.

_You_ are the one sitting here and telling me with a straight face that a Kage isn't Kage-level, in spite of the fact that the guy stopped an attack which could've wiped out his entire village.



> I said politics gave him the position



Evidence? Last I checked, Sungakure didn't like its Jinchuuriki.



> whether he was Kage level or not is debatable,



No, it is not debatable. You are debating it because it doesn't fit with your own ideas, not because there is actually anything that needs to be discussed.

Gaara is a Kage. Therefore, he is Kage-level.



> because we never got to see much from him in early part II and nothing from outside the desert.



Don't use absence of evidence as your crutch.

Gaara showed plenty. His Absolute Defense was fast enough to catch Deidara and he can manipulate a small desert's worth of extra sand; we also know from before the timeskip that he can gather extra sand from the environment, regardless of where he is. Using the most sand he can control, he can block attacks like C3--which possesses an explosive yield in the Kiloton range--pretty comfortably. That's a solid Kage-level shinobi; decent speed, decent offense, and among the best defenses in the world of ninja.



> The fact that he was nominated due to politics however easily opens the door for him to not be Kage level despite possessing the title.



No, it doesn't, because being a Kage automatically means you're Kage-level no matter how strong you are. As I keep pointing out to you, Gaara was no weakling, either.



> Ether way you are clearly trying to proactively ignore the point that there is nothing that says an incredibly skilled Jonin like a Kitsuchi, Kakuzu, or a Deidara couldn't defeat a Kage under the right circumstances without being Kage level themselves; not a dam thing.



Deidara is Kage-level himself, so of course he could defeat a Kage-level shinobi. Kakuzu is also Kage level.

Deidara>>>>>>>>>Kakuzu>Kitsuchi.

Generally, though, you're correct that weaker shinobi can beat stronger shinobi through typing and circumstance. The issue I take with your argument is that you are using inappropriate examples (like Deidara). Deidara is strong, even compared to Kage.


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## Turrin (Jan 5, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Turrin, wtf? Deidara was *much* smarter and more tactical than *any* of the Gokage in both of his battles.
> 
> He outsmarted Gaara with trickery, and was extremely careful and prepared against Sasuke (clones, distance calculations, etc.)
> 
> ...


Yes Deidara who at his strongest as an Edo according to the author was more dangerous than any Tensei on the field and still managed to be fodderized by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro due to his stupidity is clearly smarter than the Gokage 

Kishi literally made Deidara the dumbest character in the manga, because he realized Deidara was too OP for his intended level, I.E. the level where he can be casually raped by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro; a level clearly beneath that of the Gokage. I mean Kishimoto makes it clear as day to people that Deidara doesn't belong anywhere near level of the Gokage in the war arc, by showing the vastly different portrayal of the Gokage and Deidara. Gokage were off fighting other Kages, Madara, or KCM Naruto/B, while Deidara was being fodderized w/ back up by characters who were in-turn fodderized by a rusty Hanzo. Kishimoto basically shat all over the idea that Deidara is anywhere near the Gokage in that arc, yet people decide to ignore it. Don't get me wrong it's shit writing, but we need to live w/ it because that's what Kishimoto is giving us and anything else is denial of cannon. 



> Hebi Sasuke would defeat Tsunade, Gaara, Ōnoki, or Mei in normal circumstances.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2014)

The Edo Tensei were not at their strongest... besides, your argument defeats itself because Sasori was standing there too.

Sasori being the guy that beat one of the most hyped Kage (and countries, evidently) and then added that Kage's power to his own. (And had other human puppets too.)

He was blitzed by an, at best, sub-Elite Jōnin.

~

Sasuke would, Rosen. Raiton and giant snakes are a great counter for Gaara's defenses, and the Sharingan and Chidori Eisō let him handle Tsunade safely.

Hebi Sasuke was also exceptionally intelligent and tactical, so you can expect him to handle them as well.

I don't see how Ōnoki would beat him either. The elderly Kage gets beat in close or mid range or evaded at long range because of Sasuke's shunshin mastery.

Hell, if Ōnoki retreats to long range, Sasuke could very easily set up Kirin by "missing" with the katons shot into the air.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 5, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yes Deidara who at his strongest as an Edo according to the author was more dangerous than any Tensei on the field and still managed to be fodderized by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro due to his stupidity is clearly smarter than the Gokage
> 
> Kishi literally made Deidara the dumbest character in the manga, because he realized Deidara was too OP for his intended level, I.E. the level where he can be casually raped by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro; a level clearly beneath that of the Gokage.



Or Deidara was just the victim of Plot no Jutsu, which is nothing new.



> I mean Kishimoto makes it clear as day to people that Deidara doesn't belong anywhere near level of the Gokage in the war arc, by showing the vastly different portrayal of the Gokage and Deidara. Gokage were off fighting other Kages, Madara, or KCM Naruto/B, while Deidara was being fodderized w/ back up by characters who were in-turn fodderized by a rusty Hanzo. Kishimoto basically shat all over the idea that Deidara is anywhere near the Gokage in that arc, yet people decide to ignore it. Don't get me wrong it's shit writing, but we need to live w/ it because that's what Kishimoto is giving us and anything else is denial of cannon.



Losing/winning doesn't prove who's stronger. Didn't you JUST get done saying weaker ninja can beat ninja above their level if the circumstances are right and/or if they have the right abilities? That's exactly what happened, mixed with a generous dose of (in your words) bad writing.

That doesn't indicate that Deidara is weaker than the five Kage. Feats prove that isn't the case, but you only seem to want to look at the ones that reflect poorly on characters when it suits your interests.



>



Strat is correct; Deidara would defeat any of the five Kage except the Raikage, under normal circumstances.

C4 takes care of them with pretty much no debate.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

He isn't necessarily beating Tsunade, Gaara, or Oonoki either. Oonoki with jinton and flight as well as bunshin feint. Gaara to protect with sand over whole body and Tsunade's byakugou all could counter C4.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 5, 2014)

Gaara would never see c4 coming though. Otherwise he probably could trap air in a sphere.

I don't think Ōnoki has knowledge either (c4 was invented for Itachi, after Deidara left the village.)

Tsunade's regeneration _might_ counter c4, but I doubt she'd be able to fight. The disintegration process of the nanobombs was pretty much instantaneous.

A's again just a very good match-up for these guys 

~

Another thing to note about Deidara is that he's talented with dotons as well as clone feints, so he can potentially fight somewhat like Kakashi, just with c4 clones.

Against someone like Ōnoki, who he now knows can keep up with aerially (which didn't used to be the case, mind you) he might try that tactic.

Because Deidara, after all, was very tactical-minded against Sasuke and Gaara.

He's a High Kage. Hebi Sasuke isn't even a High Kage, he's just a smart fighter with flight and raiton jutsu that countered Deidara well.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 6, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Oonoki with jinton and flight as well as bunshin feint.



In the manga, it was the other way around; Deidara got Oonoki with a Bunshin feint.

He can use those and C1, while keeping his distance, to avoid Jinton.



> Gaara to protect with sand over whole body



Gaara still needs to breathe, and a spherical sand shield would be a massive drain on his chakra. More importantly, he has no way to detect C4; he might curl up in a sand ball if he thinks the giant Deidara model is going to explode, but then Deidara just has to wait until Gaara brings his shield down before he detonates the microscopic bombs.

Of course, Gaara can keep up his Absolute Defense sand all day, but he can't put a scratch on Deidara without using it offensively, and he'll eventually run out of chakra. So either he goes on the offensive and dies to C4, or he stays turtled-up in his shell until he's exhausted. Deidara wins either way.



> and Tsunade's byakugou all could counter C4.



Byakugou countering a technique as devastating as C4 is a leap of faith, to put it gently. The bombs pass through the entire cardiovascular system, and Tsunade's not shown the ability to regenerate such rapid and extensive damage to her entire body.

Even if it works, Tsunade still has no way to reach Deidara, and must constantly fend off pot-shots from his C1 and C2 until one of them runs out of chakra (which, after regenerating from C4, is probably going to be Tsunade).

Whether or not she faces Deidara with the knowledge that she will need to activate Byakugou could also prove damning, because she's dead if she takes C4 without it.


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## Turrin (Jan 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Neither does Deidara, "at his absolute strongest."


Oh I forgot Deidara was weakened by becoming an immortal zombie who can now effortless spam his strongest Jutsu; CO, which before was a suicide Jutsu 



> Deidara beat Gaara through superior skill and strategy.


Maybe in your fanfiction, but were talking about the manga cannon 



> That is ridiculous. Gaara was a Kage, therefore he was Kage-level; the term "Kage-level" reflects the strength of everyone who is or ever has been a Kage.


Yes Kishi obviously threw Gaara's election being rigged into the manga to assure readers that Gaara was unquestionably Kage level 



> I'll also point out that Mei and Gaara's dad are both weaker than Gaara, yet also Kage. The latter was able to subdue a Bijuu, and Gaara himself stopped C3 from wiping out his whole village. They are deserving of their titles, but evidently you don't care about that because you don't want to acknowledge that Deidara is Kage-level, which is probably rooted in your refusal to acknowledge that Hebi Sasuke is Kage-level. I don't know what your reasoning for that is, but I don't particularly care, either; it's abundantly clear that Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, and pre-extraction Gaara were all Kage-level--chiefly because Gaara was, in fact, a Kage.


There are so many misconceptions here it's ridiculous. 

- I don't know how you can prove Mei and Yondaime Kazekage are weaker than early Part II Gaara w/ the scant amount of feats we have from Gaara being all from the desert during that time period.

- How does Gaara saving the village prove he is Kage level? Naruto in Part I saved the village by stopping Gaara before the Shukaku rampaged out of control, yet he is not Kage level.

- I never said whether or not Gaara deserves his title, I said Kishi including that scene telling us Gaara's election was in essence rigged creates reasonable doubt and we don't have enough feats to verify it one way or another. 

- I'm not saying Gaara isn't Kage level because Deidara beat him, I'm saying it because I don't know what Kishi was thinking in that instance and am not willing to say anyone who holds the title of Kage, is Kage level even if they weren't elected for their own skills as a Ninja. I mean if that's the case their is not merit to the Kage level title in the first place and it becomes meaningless whether Deidara is kage level or not, because apparently any joe smoe who has the right connections can become Kage level, despite their strength. Beyond that there are plenty of other reasons to not consider Deidara defeating Gaara making him de-facto kage level, besides this

- The idea that you think my unwillingness to place Deidara on Kage level is rooted in my belief that Hebi Sasuke is not Kage level, couldn't be more wrong. I am way more willing to consider arguments for Hebi Sasuke being kage level than I am Deidara. I can see where people are coming from w/ Hebi Sasuke being Kage level way more than I can w/ Deidara. The reason I don't think Deidara is kage level is because he's the dumbest character in the manga cannon as evident by him managing to get raped by Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro despite being even stronger than when alive and having back up.



> You're mistaken.
> 
> C3 was to divert the extra desert sand. That way, Gaara would have to defend with the Absolute Defense, which Deidara concealed his C1 inside.
> 
> Take away Sunagakure and Deidara no longer has any reason to drop C3, and Gaara no longer has a desert to weaponize or a village to protect. The end result is still Gaara getting blown the fuck up with C1 when he defends with his gourd sand.


Yeah because Gaara can't grind additional sand outside the desert ;sarc



> Deidara's trick of hiding C1 in Gaara's Absolute Defense was a fair tactic, so I don't see why that should be held against him. Gaara COULD have outlasted Deidara...but he didn't.


A tactic that relied on luck. Deidara got lucky, accept it and move on.



> You're the only one saying Gaara didn't get the position due to his own merits as a ninja. The manga never says that, and you are only saying it to suit your own interests, which is dishonest as hell.


No the manga does say that. It literally says that Gaara was given the Kazekage position as a means of controlling the Shukaku, not his merits as a Ninja.



> If Konohamaru became a Kage, then "Kage-level"


So Kage level holds no meaning, okay i'm cool w/ that. So long as it's clear every kage (but Start of Part II Gaara under extremely beneficial and down right lucky circumstance) would rape the living hell out of Deidara.



> Neither was pre-extraction Gaara.


Based on what. a few pages of feats in the desert? Yeah that's definitely enough to judge 



> It wasn't luck; Deidara attacked the village precisely so Gaara would defend it with the desert sand. Take away the village, and Gaara doesn't have a desert. Take away the desert, and Deidara doesn't need to use C3 while Gaara still loses to the same C1 trick.


Deidara attacked the village hoping that Gaara would act differently than the other Jinchuuriki he ran up against and defend it. He got lucky that Gaara was different than the other Jinchuuriki and even expresses later on how shocked he was by Gaara's actions.



> It was pure skill; the fact that it came down to the wire and the fact that Deidara would've been SOL if it failed doesn't change that. Gaara didn't know there were bombs in his sand and Deidara successfully forced Gaara to bring it in close to protect himself. It was a close fight, but not due to luck.


It demonstrates the battle could have very easily gone a different way, if Deidara was not lucky enough to make contact w/ Gaara's Gourd sand at that exact moment before using up all of his C1.


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## Turrin (Jan 6, 2014)

> That's funny, 'cause Kakashi failed to beat Deidara; he injured him, then missed, then had to use his last remaining Kamui on Deidara's Jibaku Bunshin.


Yeah because maiming the enemy and than the enemy running the hell away, doesn't count as beating them 



> Obito distracted him in the first place.
> Deidara reacted to Sasuke's first blitz no sweat, and he reacted to Obito's warning when Sasuke was within striking range already.


So Deidara is an idiot for getting distracted to the point of nearly being fodderized in the heat of battle. That sounds a-lot better 



> No, that tells me that YOU do not consider the guy Kage-level. Kishimoto having him capture a Kage and almost wipe out an entire village tells me he is very comfortably Kage-level.
> 
> You are the one sitting here and telling me with a straight face that a Kage isn't Kage-level, in spite of the fact that the guy stopped an attack which could've wiped out his entire village


Apparently to you Kage level is meaningless as anyone w/ big enough political pull can become Kage regardless of their strength, so let's change it to if Deidara is getting raped by Kankuro, Sai, and Omoi at his strongest and w/ back up, Kishi is clearly telling you that every Kage (but Start of Part II Gaara under extremely beneficial and down right lucky circumstance) would rape the hell out of Deidara 

Though i'm curious to know where Kishi stated that whoever beats a Kage (no matter the scenario) is qualified to be a Kage. 



> No, it is not debatable. You are debating it because it doesn't fit with your own ideas, not because there is actually anything that needs to be discussed.
> 
> Gaara is a Kage. Therefore, he is Kage-level


No you are focusing on on this one aspect and ignore the fact that I have stated many times that there are other reasons why Deidara beating Gaara, even if he was Kage level, does not prove Deidara is qualified to be Kage level himself. Your just choosing to ignore all of those things and focusing in on this one thing, which was literally thee most minor point of my entire reasoning for Deidara not being Kage level and making it out to be my entire argument. So this is nothing, but a misrepresentation of my thoughts on the matter. 

Yes I think it's debatable whether Gaara was Kage level or if Shukaku was the reason he was elected. No I don't think that is even close to the most important reason why Deidara isn't kage level. For the sake of argument though you can assume Gaara was Kage level, if this will allow you to move past this point and demonstrate how many shits I give whether Gaara is considered Kage level or not for the purpose of Deidara's placement. Also hell like i said if any idiot can politics his way into kage level we can move past the entire term as it becomes pointless and therefore sure if Deidara had a big enough wallet dude could become Kage whatever... However every Kage we've seen (but Gaara under extremely beneficial circumstances) rapes the every loving hell out of Deidara.



> Don't use absence of evidence as your crutch.
> 
> Gaara showed plenty. His Absolute Defense was fast enough to catch Deidara and he can manipulate a small desert's worth of extra sand; we also know from before the timeskip that he can gather extra sand from the environment, regardless of where he is. Using the most sand he can control, he can block attacks like C3--which possesses an explosive yield in the Kiloton range--pretty comfortably. That's a solid Kage-level shinobi; decent speed, decent offense, and among the best defenses in the world of ninja.


Crutch for what. I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying we don't know. 

It's funny to me though that suddenly you remember Gaara can grind sand here, but conveniently forget it when discussing other points. 



> No, it doesn't, because being a Kage automatically means you're Kage-level no matter how strong you are. As I keep pointing out to you, Gaara was no weakling, either.


So Fodder man can be Kage, if so title means shit and no body cares. Let's move on to how every Kage (But start of Part II Gaara when Deidara gets excessively lucky) rapes the shit out of Deidara.



> Deidara is Kage-level himself, so of course he could defeat a Kage-level shinobi. Kakuzu is also Kage level.


The fact that Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro fodderized the shit out of him says he only stands any chance against Part II Gaara w/ extreme luck on his side.



> Deidara>>>>>>>>>Kakuzu>Kitsuchi.


This is so far removed from reality it's laughable. Kishi shows Deidara getting fodderized at his strongest and w/ back up by Sai, Omoi, and Kankuro. Niku concludes Deidara is FAR FAR above even other shinobi he considers already Kage level. 



> Generally, though, you're correct that weaker shinobi can beat stronger shinobi through typing and circumstance. The issue I take with your argument is that you are using inappropriate examples (like Deidara).


Yeah because Deidara was not a good type match up for facing Gaara in the Desert around Sungakuru - no way that's possible. I mean his flight only allows him to circumvent much of Gaara's battlefield control style and his massive AOE bombs only allowed him to exploit the village as a weakness. But no surely he's not a bad a match up in those circumstances. He must just geniunely be way stronger than Gaara, Kitsuchi, and Kakuzu and obviously the power scale the author wants us to walk away from w/ here is:

Kankuro/Sai/Omoi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Deidara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakuzu > Kitsuchi

And where ever the hell Gaara gets place in your nonsensical mess of a power scale.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> In the manga, it was the other way around; Deidara got Oonoki with a Bunshin feint.
> 
> He can use those and C1, while keeping his distance, to avoid Jinton.
> 
> ...



Oonoki got him with a bunshin feint as well. I am talking about countering C4 specifically by using a huge one all around him or potentially using a bunshin feint. And flight helps because he can stay near Deidara knowing that if he is near Deidara he should avoid the bombs. Gaara can take him down considering at this point Deidara should be low on chakra and pretty exhausted.

C4 appears to be a last resort ordinarily that uses a lot of chakra. Huddling up in a sand sphere with an eye to see his opponent while breathing with the air available to him would work to counter the jutsu and finish off an exhausted Tsunade.

I said could implying it was possible. Obviously not definite as that would be healing on a level we have not seen. But that doesn't mean it can't considering how immortal she appears to be with byakugou active.

In active fights she apparently does this. She was rusty and may not have completed the technique pre times skip but against an Akatsuki I do not see why she would not.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 6, 2014)

I don't see how a guy who can level a village in one attack is anything but Kage-level. Have we ever seen any Elite Jōnin (i.e. Part 1 Kakashi, Asuma, Darui, etc.) have the level of destructive capacity that Deidara has? He's a member of the Akatsuki, canonically defeated Gaara, the Kazekage, when the latter had a huge advantage due to the location, was able to avoid Team Gai, a CQC specialist squad, without much injury, has a Jutsu that allows him to destroy at a cellular level, as well as an absolutely monstrous suicide technique. That's a pretty impressive resume, and I honestly can't make sense of him being Elite Jōnin.


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## Turrin (Jan 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Losing/winning doesn't prove who's stronger. Didn't you JUST get done saying weaker ninja can beat ninja above their level if the circumstances are right and/or if they have the right abilities? That's exactly what happened, mixed with a generous dose of (in your words) bad writing.
> 
> That doesn't indicate that Deidara is weaker than the five Kage. Feats prove that isn't the case, but you only seem to want to look at the ones that reflect poorly on characters when it suits your interests.


It's bad writing, but doesn't change what Kishimoto is clearly demonstrating; that Deidara is fodder when compared to a fighting force of Omoi, Sai, and Kankuro. I'd also like to know how they have the right abilities to bridge the absolutely massive gap your posts have indicated exist, where Deidara is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kakuzu > Kitsuchi and even stronger than Shinobi like Onoki. You'll probably say oh Omoi had Raiton or some shit like that, but if Deidara can be so hard countered by someone who expressively states he only knows a little raiton and showed thee most basic raiton ability, that is weakness is way too ridiculous for you to be sitting here and claiming Deidara is even close to the level you place him on. 

Yes I said stronger ninja can loose to Ninja weaker than them, due to type match up & circumstance.  Circumstance favored Deidara there as he was sueped up unimaginably by becoming an Edo Tensei, not Team Kankuro. As for type match up all Team Kankuro had on him was Omoi knowing the most basic Raitons and again if that's enough to totally shut Deidara down to the point where he gets so easily fodderized, there is no way in hell he has any ability to act as Kage, because the first time he goes up against anyone w/ crap raiton skills his village is fucked; which is why no kage has such a ridiculous weakness like that. And if he's not that weak to raiton than there is no case to be made that there is such a staggering type advantage at play that it justifies anyone whose even remotely close to average level of the Kages we've seen being fodderized so easily. And that's another thing I said someone can win w/ the right type advantage and circumstance, but I never said they'd fodderize a person that is supposidly according to you VASTLY above them; so on that basis alone my words in no way support that madness of your placement of Deidara.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Kabuto didn't reinforce Edo Tensei with Anko's Chakra by the time Deidara got blitzed iirc.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

I've always concluded in the manga you are WHO YOU FIGHT why must fanboys result to fan fiction instead of just resorting to the manga where the is an abundance of evidence to show you hw strong a character is , Deidara is an awesome character great design and from a common sense perspective OP ninjutsu but look at who he fought and the outcome of said  battle

Gaara beginning of pt 2 , think about it not one time in the entire manga even from the chunnin exams Gaara has not at one point been much stronger than Naruto and Sasuke , he was slightly stronger than Sasuke for a while but then Sasuke caught up and eventually surpassed him by the end of pt 1 , he's never been stronger than Naruto cannon, so I don't see how people can come to the conclusion the Gaara was tiers above Sasuke and Naruto beginning  of pt 2 when there hasn't been a time before that or after that he was a tier stronger to be honest he's always been the 3rd wheel of the 3 , 3 things also hurt Deidara here

1. Gaara was fighting in his terrain where kishi specifies Suna Kazakage are made stronger in their terrain why put this stipulation on placed upon Gaara and not any other Kage in the manga , kishi wants to give you a definitive reason as for why Gaara is fighting on this level, kishi wants to drive home to the reader Gaara isnt a cage level fighter unless conditions favor him tremendously 

2. Why would kishi even have Baki tell the reader that Gaara was only made Kazekage only due to political reasons , why throw that tidbit in there if you didn't intend to dehype Gaara and deidara , its because he wants to drive home to the reader that Gaara isn't much stronger than Naruto and Sasuke and that Deidara isn't much of a threat to more powerful opponents another dehype to Gaara and Dedidara

3. Deidara having his ass handed to him by Naruto(3 tails), and Hebi Sasuke both of whom were inferior to a sick armless Orochimaru , that right there was kishi once again dehiring deidara and pt 2 Gaara 

you have to use logic if Gaara was Kage level then then what is he now is feats blow that version of Gaara's out of the water , if he was Kage level then , now he is beyond kage level and on par with shinobi like Minato and Hashirama cant have it both ways 


overall look at who he fought and the outcome 

pt 2 Gaara who power level is shaky at best 


completely outclassed by Hebi Sasuke who was weaker than Sick Itachi by at least a tier and weaker than armless Orochimaru by his own admission 

then he is outclassed by Omio, Sai, Kankuro 

look at what every Kage level fighter has faced 


Tsunade 

Orochimaru(wins)

Pain(saves the villagers)

Rinnegan Madara(saves Gokage)

even when she struggled with Kabuto kishi set in a stipulation telling the reader why she isn't stomping this elite jounin

thats what kishi does for his Kage level fighters 

Raikage 

Sasuke

KCM Naruto

Killer Bee

Minato


3rd Raikage 

KCM Naruto


Nagato

Jiraiya 

Naruto(Sm KCM)

Itachi 


Kabuto

Itachi

Sasuke(EMS)


Minato

Obito

Juubito


he could've easily had kage or shinobi much stronger than omio , sai , kanurko being necessary in taking him down but he chose not to for some reason 


thats the problem I have with people overhyping killer bee he lost to kisame and won against a Sasuke w/o Susanoo


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> I've always concluded in the manga you are WHO YOU FIGHT why must fanboys result to fan fiction instead of just resorting to the manga where the is an abundance of evidence to show you hw strong a character is , Deidara is an awesome character great design and from a common sense perspective OP ninjutsu but look at who he fought and the outcome of said  battle
> 
> Gaara beginning of pt 2 , think about it not one time in the entire manga even from the chunnin exams Gaara has not at one point been much stronger than Naruto and Sasuke , he was slightly stronger than Sasuke for a while but then Sasuke caught up and eventually surpassed him by the end of pt 1 , he's never been stronger than Naruto cannon, so I don't see how people can come to the conclusion the Gaara was tiers above Sasuke and Naruto beginning  of pt 2 when there hasn't been a time before that or after that he was a tier stronger to be honest he's always been the 3rd wheel of the 3 , 3 things also hurt Deidara here


Wait, you want to avoid fanfiction, but don't see how Gaara is superior?

First off, Gaara was clearly superior to naruto, right up until they fought.
Secondly, just because Gaara was beaten by Sasuke and part 1 naruto doesn't mean he can't surpass them in part 2.  His only weaknesses was his lack of mobility and insanity, which he remedied by part 2.  




Eliyua23 said:


> I
> you have to use logic if Gaara was Kage level then then what is he now is feats blow that version of Gaara's out of the water , if he was Kage level then , now he is beyond kage level and on par with shinobi like Minato and Hashirama cant have it both ways


You should probably never use the word logic again....

You ASSUME there is no gray area between a regular Kage, and Hashirama, but that is ridiculous!

Gaara was clearly Kage level at part2.  
Right now Gaara is a high tier kage!


Sounds like someone else is into fanfiction.




Eliyua23 said:


> I
> he could've easily had kage or shinobi much stronger than omio , sai , kanurko being necessary in taking him down but he chose not to for some reason
> 
> 
> thats the problem I have with people overhyping killer bee he lost to kisame and won against a Sasuke w/o Susanoo



Maybe you should try reading the series, so you can understand the context!?

HINT:  A>B>C doesn't work most of the time.  
Some Ninja, like in the fights above, have huge advantages over their opponents!


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 6, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke > Deidara >= Orochimaru  > Gaara > Kakuzu > Tsunade > Mei > = Hiruzen

Canon says he is kage level. Unless you believe the ones listed above aren't Kage level.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

> Wait, you want to avoid fanfiction, but don't see how Gaara is superior?
> 
> First off, Gaara was clearly superior to naruto, right up until they fought.
> Secondly, just because Gaara was beaten by Sasuke and part 1 naruto doesn't mean he can't surpass them in part 2.  His only weaknesses was his lack of mobility and insanity, which he remedied by part 2.



Gaara was never really stronger than Naruto, it's just that Naruto couldn't tap into Kurama's power until he started training with Jiraiya he also had problems controlling his powers but they power he wielded was that above Gaara's therefore he's grown at a higher rate , and even if Gaara at a time at the beginning of the CE was stronger than Naruto he has never one time in the manga been on another tier than Naruto, as for Sasuke he really didn't show much in pt 2 and Naruto didn't want to tap into Kurama's power , also we were even given a stipulation where Kishi made it so that Gaara can become stronger when fighting in his own terrain , then we have Kishi saying Gaara is there for political purposes , the. we have Naruto and Sasuke basically pummeling Deidara later on in a neutral setting , Kishi did everything in his power to make sure Gaara wasn't on another tier than Sasuke or NAruto 




> You should probably never use the word logic again....
> 
> You ASSUME there is no gray area between a regular Kage, and Hashirama, but that is ridiculous!
> 
> ...



High Kage Tier is reserved for people like Minato, Hashirama, Kabuto, current Naruto,

think about it like this , Gaara fought a close battle with 4th Kazekage who is considered lower on the Kage scale , 4th Kazekage would destroy the Gaara we saw fight Deidara,






> Maybe you should try reading the series, so you can understand the context!?
> 
> HINT:  A>B>C doesn't work most of the time.
> Some Ninja, like in the fights above, have huge advantages over their opponents!



there's a difference between using A>B>C logic and coming to a conclusion based upon circumstances the author creates that allows said character to consistently under perform or of they do perform well like Killer Bee and Deidara did against Sasuke and Gaara , the author puts in a stipulation that dehypes their victory , they tell you Gaara might not be Kage level, they tell you that Gaara. only lost because he saved the village , ect. I don't care what level of the alphabet it is there isn't a Kage in this manga that's losing to Omio, Sai, Kankuro


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hebi Sasuke > Deidara >= Orochimaru  > Gaara > Kakuzu > Tsunade > Mei > = Hiruzen
> 
> Canon says he is kage level. Unless you believe the ones listed above aren't Kage level.



No this is all wrong , Hebi Sasuke admitted inferiority to Orochimaru , Kakuzu he wasn't even worth Tsunade's time she sent Jounin's and Chunnin to go fight him and Hidan , Lol at Hiruzen being stated by Kishi to be stronger than Onoki yet by your perception he's listed as being weaker than Mei lol

show me scans of Deidara being confirmed as being Kage Level 

Orochimaru>Old Hiruzen>/= Gaara~Tsunade>Mei>Hebi Sasuke>Kakuzu~Deidara


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> No this is all wrong , Hebi Sasuke admitted inferiority to Orochimaru , Kakuzu he wasn't even worth Tsunade's time she sent Jounin's and Chunnin to go fight him and Hidan , Lol at Hiruzen being stated by Kishi to be stronger than Onoki yet by your perception he's listed as being weaker than Mei lol
> 
> show me scans of Deidara being confirmed as being Kage Level
> 
> Orochimaru>Old Hiruzen>/= Gaara~Tsunade>Mei>Hebi Sasuke>Kakuzu~Deidara



What ass pulling are you doing again?  

Kakauzu not worth Tsunade's time?  Da fuq?!  She is the Kage, they don't just leave the village.  Kakuzu was clealry at Kage level!  He was kicking Kakashi's ass all up and down the place.  He fought to 1st Hokage, and lived to tell the tale.

Hiruzen got old!  

Deidara is Kage level.



Eliyua23 said:


> Gaara was never really stronger than Naruto, it's just that Naruto couldn't tap into Kurama's power until he started training with Jiraiya he also had problems controlling his powers but they power he wielded was that above Gaara's therefore he's grown at a higher rate , and even if Gaara at a time at the beginning of the CE was stronger than Naruto he has never one time in the manga been on another tier than Naruto, as for Sasuke he really didn't show much in pt 2 and Naruto didn't want to tap into Kurama's power , also we were even given a stipulation where Kishi made it so that Gaara can become stronger when fighting in his own terrain , then we have Kishi saying Gaara is there for political purposes , the. we have Naruto and Sasuke basically pummeling Deidara later on in a neutral setting , Kishi did everything in his power to make sure Gaara wasn't on another tier than Sasuke or NAruto
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If he didn't have the ability to tap into Kurama's power, then he was still weaker.


High tier Kage is still kage tier, just on the top of the spectrum.

The people you listed are ABOVE Kage level. Sages, Perfect Jinchuriki, and people directly connected to the sage of six paths. 
To them a Kage is like a chunin to a jounin.  It's fodder!


The circumstances were that shinobi have worst possible matchups, and we saw two of them.  
You can't extrapolate anything from that!


Bee is a Kage level opponent, and he RAPED Sasuke several times.
That is what happens when a Kage fights an Elite jounin.

Gaara has already defeated 2 past Kages, back to back!
Then he had to fight Madara, and has been holding his own.  Hell, probably doing the best.  In fact, without the Rinnegan, Naruto + Gaara would have killed him long ago!  Then tie that in with recent feats, and it's clear that Gaara is top tier Kage level.

I mean, who amongst the Kage could even handle Gaara right now?  Maybe Onoki, and even that is doubtful!


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 6, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> No this is all wrong ,


Good way to start a conversation 




> Hebi Sasuke admitted inferiority to Orochimaru


,
Scans ? Evidence ? 




> Kakuzu he wasn't even worth Tsunade's time she sent Jounin's and Chunnin to go fight him and Hidan


Since when does Tsunade leave the village and attend missions herself ? 
Yeah right.

Kakuzu pretty much raped Kakashi + team shika on his own btw. I guess Tsunade's decision wasn't on point 




> , Lol at Hiruzen being stated by Kishi to be stronger than Onoki yet by your perception he's listed as being weaker than Mei lol



Blame Kishi and the ridicilious power inflation if  you must.
But please don't say shit like "Hiruzen > Onoki" it hurts my eyes and brain.

And yes, going by feats Mei is stronger than Hiruzen.



> show me scans of Deidara being confirmed as being Kage Level


You might just want to read the beginning of part 2. 
I'll just briefly summarize it for you if you are too lazy to do so.

Deidara waltzes in sand village unprepared and casually abducts their kage. So yes, he is easily mid Kage level, considering that Gaara is a low Kage.




> Orochimaru>Old Hiruzen>/= Gaara~Tsunade>Mei>Hebi Sasuke>Kakuzu~Deidara



Oh man. 

Please read the manga.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 6, 2014)

I'd say:

Orochimaru > Hebi Sasuke  > Deidara > Tsunade > Gaara > Kakuzu > Mei > Hiruzen 

I'd put Orochimaru as a high kage assuming he's not sick or holding back as he so frequently is depicted.

Hebi sasuke to kakuzu are all middle-ish kage level. Mei and Hiruzen low kage .


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## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2014)

"Gaara wasn't Kage level (like Old Hiruzen) when he fought Deidara." - Eliyua







			
				Eliyua said:
			
		

> 3. Deidara having his ass handed to him by Naruto(3 tails), and Hebi Sasuke both of whom were inferior to a sick armless Orochimaru , that right there was kishi once again dehiring deidara and pt 2 Gaara




*Armless* Deidara clone-feinted KN3, and nearly soloed Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Neji, Lee, Sakura, Tenten, etc. if not for a giant, instant Kamui feat.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Hebi Sasuke admitted inferiority to Orochimaru




He went to fight an opponent he knew was much stronger than Orochimaru, so that's untrue.



Eliyua23 said:


> Kakuzu he wasn't even worth Tsunade's time she sent Jounin's and Chunnin to go fight him and Hidan




She sent a similar team to capture Itachi (who rolls with Kisame.) _I guess they're not worth Tsunade's time either, hurr._. 




Eliyua23 said:


> Lol at Hiruzen being stated by Kishi to be stronger than Onoki yet by your perception he's listed as being weaker than Mei lol




In his youth, he was, but he certainly wasn't by the time he died. Ōnoki got faster with age. (Stated by Deidara.)




Eliyua23 said:


> show me scans of Deidara being confirmed as being Kage Level




Soloing tailed beasts, capturing the Kazekage in his own village, nearly defeating Team Kakashi and Team Gai without arms, having village-destoying jutsu...


----------



## fior fior (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, Deidara _did_ get fucked by an early Pt. 2 Kakashi, who himself was weaker than a 30% sick Itachi clone.

It's arguable just how fast (early Pt. 2) Gaara's sand is, as well as how strong Deidara's explosions are. Sure, they can blow apart rocks and buildings, but the value of such feats is pretty much moot - it's all relative. For example, Pt. 1 Sasuke's Katon jutsu can flatten trees and decimate the landscape, but I strongly doubt that it would kill somebody of Kakashi's caliber with one shot (despite the fact that wood and rock is definitely tougher than human flesh).

Early Pt. 2 Gaara can definitely cough up a load of sand, but whether or not it's worthy of Kage-level (despite the fact that he _is_ a Kage himself, whether he deserves it or not is another matter: the others are, arguably, so much stronger that he can't be called a Kage by his own right) is questionable.

If anyone could give me feats, that'd be great. As of now, though, I'd have to say that Deidara is not Kage level, making the 'Sasuke beat Deidara so he's automatically Kage level' arguments moot.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

fior fior said:


> Well, Deidara _did_ get fucked by an early Pt. 2 Kakashi, who himself was weaker than a 30% sick Itachi clone..


Evidence for this?  Ohh you just pulled it out of your ass!



fior fior said:


> It's arguable just how fast (early Pt. 2) Gaara's sand is, as well as how strong Deidara's explosions are. Sure, they can blow apart rocks and buildings, but the value of such feats is pretty much moot - it's all relative. For example, Pt. 1 Sasuke's Katon jutsu can flatten trees and decimate the landscape, but I strongly doubt that it would kill somebody of Kakashi's caliber with one shot (despite the fact that wood and rock is definitely tougher than human flesh).
> 
> Early Pt. 2 Gaara can definitely cough up a load of sand, but whether or not it's worthy of Kage-level (despite the fact that he _is_ a Kage himself, whether he deserves it or not is another matter: the others are, arguably, so much stronger that he can't be called a Kage by his own right) is questionable.
> 
> If anyone could give me feats, that'd be great. As of now, though, I'd have to say that Deidara is not Kage level, making the 'Sasuke beat Deidara so he's automatically Kage level' arguments moot.



Shinobi are pretty much just ordinary people.
No Gaara's rank as Kage is not a matter for discussion.

That argument was moot anyways, because of the A>B>C fallacy.


----------



## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hebi Sasuke > Deidara >= Orochimaru  > Gaara > Kakuzu > Tsunade > Mei > = Hiruzen
> 
> Canon says he is kage level. Unless you believe the ones listed above aren't Kage level.



Uh, Sasuke himself admitted he was weaker than Orochimaru and Deidara ain't stronger than him either. the fuck are you smoking?

And I love how Niku thinks anyone who gets granted the title of kage is automatically kage-level in strength, as if it works that way. Like if they gave part 1 Konohamaru the title that suddenly makes him kage tier.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Shinobi are far above ordinary people.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Shinobi are far above ordinary people.



You stab them, and they die, unless they have specific armor protection.  The only place this really doesn't hold true is against fire ninjutsu.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke never said he was weaker to Orochimaru.

Get your timeline straight, people. He obviously believed he was superior to Orochimaru _after absorbing him_.

Given that he was hunting the guy that Orochimaru was too afraid to approach.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> He went to fight an opponent he knew was much stronger than Orochimaru, so that's untrue.
> .


Untrue?  It's a fucking fact, in black and white!



Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke never said he was weaker to Orochimaru.
> 
> Get your timeline straight, people. He obviously believed he was superior to Orochimaru _after absorbing him_.
> 
> Given that he was hunting the guy that Orochimaru was too afraid to approach.




He went to attack him as a fucking genin too... I guess he was stronger then as well!?  
ROFL, your logic is pure shit!

Orochimaru wasn't afraid of Itachi either, Itachi was merely superior to him in genjutsu.
Orochimaru had no reason to merely go after him, if he couldn't take his body.

Furthermore, there isn't even any indication Sasuke gained any strength from sealing orochimaru inside himself.


Sasuke went after Itachi with a plan.
This was explained clearly in the series!


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 6, 2014)

It's super obvious the implication was:

Hebi Sasuke (a *fusion*) > Orochimaru > Pre-Hebi Sasuke


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> It's super obvious the implication was:
> 
> Hebi Sasuke (a *fusion*) > Orochimaru > Pre-Hebi Sasuke



There is nothing to support your argument, sorry.  It's just what you want to believe, rather than what is actually there.


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Barring Edo Tensei, Hebi Sasuke was definitely portrayed as stronger than Orochimaru with arms. The main reason is because he had pretty much all of Orochimaru's defenses but with a much stronger offensive arsenal than him. And of course, a stronger Genjutsu arsenal and a hree tomoe Sharingan to make up for any differences.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Barring Edo Tensei, Hebi Sasuke was definitely portrayed as stronger than Orochimaru with arms. The main reason is because he had pretty much all of Orochimaru's defenses but with a much stronger offensive arsenal than him. And of course, a stronger Genjutsu arsenal and a hree tomoe Sharingan to make up for any differences.



HE CLEARLY ADMITTED INFERIORITY TO A SICKLY OROCHIMARU!

FFS!!! HE CLEARLY SAID IT!

IT WAS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE!

WTF MORE DO YOU WANT!?


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> HE CLEARLY ADMITTED INFERIORITY TO A SICKLY OROCHIMARU!
> 
> FFS!!! HE CLEARLY SAID IT!
> 
> ...



Nope. Your interpretation of canon material and what actually was said is the difference between black and white. 

Sasuke's statement about sickly Orochimaru

BASE SASUKE'S comparison to Orochimaru

If you want to understand what is black and white, Sasuke clearly believed himself above sick Orochimaru. While he made a fair statement about his win over Orochimaru. He never admitted inferiority (unless the Viz scans state otherwise), only implied that the fight may have gone differently if he wasn't sick and had his arms.


----------



## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Sasuke's statement about sickly Orochimaru



Yes. Weakened Orochimaru, lacking the use of his arms and unable to perform ninjutsu. I would hope a competent Sasuke would be stronger.



> BASE SASUKE'S comparison to Orochimaru
> 
> If you want to understand what is black and white, Sasuke clearly believed himself above sick Orochimaru. While he made a fair statement about his win over Orochimaru. He never admitted inferiority (unless the Viz scans state otherwise), only implied that the fight may have gone differently if he wasn't sick and had his arms.







> Orochimaru was already weakened. That's all it was.



Pretty decisive if you ask me.


----------



## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke never said he was weaker to Orochimaru.
> 
> Get your timeline straight, people. He obviously believed he was superior to Orochimaru _after absorbing him_.
> 
> Given that he was hunting the guy that Orochimaru was too afraid to approach.



Sure he was, he clearly said it.

And Sasuke went into the fight with a strategy in mind. Survive long enough to force Itachi to use Amaterasu then respond with Kirin. Susanoo got in the way of that, but that was his plan.


----------



## Ghost (Jan 6, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> There is nothing to support your argument, sorry.  It's just what you want to believe, rather than what is actually there.



are you retarded?

why isn't this guy banned yet?


----------



## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

saikyou said:


> are you retarded?
> 
> why isn't this guy banned yet?



Since Sasuke himself admitted he was weaker, then no he's not.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

saikyou said:


> are you retarded?
> 
> why isn't this guy banned yet?



I guess you can't read...



Vice said:


> Sure he was, he clearly said it.
> 
> And Sasuke went into the fight with a strategy in mind. Survive long enough to force Itachi to use Amaterasu then respond with Kirin. Susanoo got in the way of that, but that was his plan.




Exactly!  These people are delusional!


----------



## Krippy (Jan 6, 2014)

Why is this still going on? Hebi Sasuke was >= Kakashi when he fought Itachi

Are there people here who think Kakashi was not Kage level at that point in time?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Uh, Sasuke himself admitted he was weaker than Orochimaru and Deidara ain't stronger than him either. the fuck are you smoking?


He never said so, I have no idea what you guys are referring to.

But he went after the guy whom he said neither he nor Orochimaru could defeat unless they merged bodies, but that was before he even know about Susano'o.

So no, Hebi Sasuke thought he was stronger than Orochimaru and guess what he, actually was.



> And I love how Niku thinks anyone who gets granted the title of kage is automatically kage-level in strength, as if it works that way. Like if they gave part 1 Konohamaru the title that suddenly makes him kage tier.



Guess what ? They don't grant that  title to those who aren't Kage tier 

You almost got us with dat logic tho


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He never said so, I have no idea what you guys are referring to.
> 
> But he went after the guy whom he said neither he nor Orochimaru could defeat unless they merged bodies, but that was before he didn't even know about Susano'o.
> 
> ...




The guy who said Naruto is a chunin without Kurama is speaking here folks.

Better take this shit serious!!!


----------



## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He never said so, I have no idea what you guys are referring to.







> But he went after the guy whom he said neither he nor Orochimaru could defeat unless they merged bodies, but that was before he even know about Susano'o.



He went in with a plan, I've already explained this.



> So no, Hebi Sasuke thought he was stronger than Orochimaru and guess what he, actually was.







> Guess what ? They don't grant that  title to those who aren't Kage tier



Clearly, but that wasn't the argument being made. What was said that anybody granted the title of kage is automatically kage-level no matter what. Clearly that's not true.



> You almost got us with dat logic tho


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Yes. Weakened Orochimaru, lacking the use of his arms and unable to perform ninjutsu. I would hope a competent Sasuke would be stronger.



Yep, but it was his argument that Sasuke said that he was weaker than a sick Orochimaru, which is untrue.



> Pretty decisive if you ask me.



In the context of Sasuke having trouble fighting Deidara, it really doesn't mean he admits inferiority, although I believe that pre-Hebi Sasuke was weaker than Orochimaru. But that doesn't say anything about after he absorbed Orochimaru.The statement is only relevant to pre-Hebi Sasuke, not Hebi Sasuke. That's what Strat and I are pointing out here.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

I don't know why you're still replying.

"that's all there is to it" = that's all there is to it and that's all there is to it.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> But that doesn't say anything about after he absorbed Orochimaru.The statement is only relevant to pre-Hebi Sasuke, not Hebi Sasuke. That's what Strat and I are pointing out here.



Oh, by the way, Orochimaru's chakra didn't come into play until after Sasuke had already used up his own and it didn't even end up helping him as Orochimaru merely took over his body and acted on his own. Sasuke was actually trying to suppress Orochimaru's chakra and then his chakra was extracted from Sasuke when he got sealed. So really, fusing with Orochimaru absolutely did nothing to benefit Sasuke at all.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> I don't know why you're still replying.
> 
> "that's all there is to it" = that's all there is to it and that's all there is to it.



Yeah. "Orochimaru was weakened". That's all there is to it. That's a "to be fair" statement, not an inferiority statement. But I'm willing to drop it because you already know my opinion on the power difference.



Vice said:


> Oh, by the way, Orochimaru's chakra didn't come into play until after Sasuke had already used up his own and it didn't even end up helping him as Orochimaru merely took over his body and acted on his own. Sasuke was actually trying to suppress Orochimaru's chakra then his chakra was extracted from Sasuke when he got sealed. So really, fusing with Orochimaru absolutely did nothing to benefit Sasuke at all.



Absorbing Orochimaru gave him some passive abilities. He mentions "abilities" in that page, which indicate that the snake abilities he got were from absorbing Orochimaru. He has a snake summon and CS on his own, but everything else snake related was directly from absorbing Orochimaru, or at least is implied that way.


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## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Oh, by the way, Orochimaru's chakra didn't come into play until after Sasuke had already used up his own and it didn't even end up helping him as Orochimaru merely took over his body and acted on his own. Sasuke was actually trying to suppress Orochimaru's chakra and then his chakra was extracted from Sasuke when he got sealed. So really, fusing with Orochimaru absolutely did nothing to benefit Sasuke at all.



Yup, they have concocted their own version of the story, which is completely different from that of the authors.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

> ]What ass pulling are you doing again?
> 
> Kakauzu not worth Tsunade's time?  Da fuq?!  She is the Kage, they don't just leave the village.  Kakuzu was clealry at Kage level!  He was kicking Kakashi's ass all up and down the place.  He fought to 1st Hokage, and lived to tell the tale.



Where is your proof that Kages do not leave the village or that cant under normal circumstances , no they just don't leave to take care of people of Kakuzu's caliber , but as we saw when Raikage and Tsunade left the HQ ,they would if they deem the threat as being absolutely necessary, Sasuke in pt 1 fought Orochimaru and lived to tell the tale , Kurenai and Asuma fought Itachi and lived to tell the tale , living to tell the tale doesn't really tell us that much about the battle



> Hiruzen got old!
> 
> Deidara is Kage level.



Even in his old age Kabuto who has a vast knowledge of the shinobi world,  stated Hiruzen was the strongest 

Deidara isn't elite jounin level



> If he didn't have the ability to tap into Kurama's power, then he was still weaker.



No it doesn't because once he tapped into Kurama's power he was able to summon Gambuta which proved to be able to defeat Gaara, therefore he had access to a power greater than Gaara, he just didn't know how to utilize it, he was born with Uzumaki Chakra, and Kurama's chakra that alone makes him a stronger shinobi than Gaara




> High tier Kage is still kage tier, just on the top of the spectrum.
> 
> The people you listed are ABOVE Kage level. Sages, Perfect Jinchuriki, and people directly connected to the sage of six paths.
> To them a Kage is like a chunin to a jounin.  It's fodder!




The only shinobi that have been stated to be above Kage Level are Juubito and Rikudo Sennin no one else has that distinction 




> The circumstances were that shinobi have worst possible matchups, and we saw two of them.
> You can't extrapolate anything from that!



Kishi the author of the manga sets up the stipulations , if he intends such as such shinobi to be stronger or to be portrayed in a different light he wouldn't put him in scenario's where his oppents always have his number 





> Bee is a Kage level opponent, and he RAPED Sasuke several times.
> That is what happens when a Kage fights an Elite jounin.



Bee is Kage level true but he isn't on the tier most place him in he's a low kage caliber ninja case in pt he had to defeat a Sasuke with no susanoo who was injured from his previous fight with Sasuke and he lost to Kisame 




> Gaara has already defeated 2 past Kages, back to back!
> Then he had to fight Madara, and has been holding his own.  Hell, probably doing the best.  In fact, without the Rinnegan, Naruto + Gaara would have killed him long ago!  Then tie that in with recent feats, and it's clear that Gaara is top tier Kage level.
> 
> I mean, who amongst the Kage could even handle Gaara right now?  Maybe Onoki, and even that is doubtful!



Gaara defeated trollkage with aid from an entire division and Onoki he didn't prove he could defeat Trollkage mano e mano and think about it Trollkage is considered on the forums to be a mid -high cage caliber ninja , against the 4th Kazekage that was a close fight where Gaara was having been acknowledged as just surpassing his father at that point in time ,

Think about this 4th Kazekage is considered one of the weakest Kage's on the forums and Gaara still had trouble with him and had just surpassed his power, so if thats the case how would a fight between pt 2 Gaara and 4th kazekage go , he would get utterly destroyed by a low Kage tier ninja , yes Gaara is probably high kage tier based upon recent chapters but its getting towards the end of the manga , and he still isn't on par with Minato, Hashirama, Naruto, Sasuke, Madara who are the pinnacle of Kage tier ninja.


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## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Bee lost to Kisame's sword... That's it dude.  Stop exaggerating.

Bee is clearly Kage level, and clearly beat the ever living shit out of Sasuke.
The thread is about Hebi sasuke, so no MS.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

> Good way to start a conversation





 ,


> Scans ? Evidence ?



Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison




> Since when does Tsunade leave the village and attend missions herself ?
> Yeah right.


 
She contemplated leaving with Jiraiya to go face Pain, in most cases missions don't require Kage level ninjas , we've seen in the war kage level ninja would leave their post when said threat is deemed necessary or in instances where there is a world threat like Madara Uchiha 







> Kakuzu pretty much raped Kakashi + team shika on his own btw. I guess Tsunade's decision wasn't on point



what fight were you watching , Kakashi was fighting on par with Kazkuzu I would say they were evenly matched shit Kakashi said he would've been able to defeat Kazkuzu with Kamui




> Blame Kishi and the ridicilious power inflation if  you must.
> But please don't say shit like "Hiruzen > Onoki" it hurts my eyes and brain.





> I didn't say it Kishi said it
> And yes, going by feats Mei is stronger than Hiruzen.



even with power scaling Mei has nothing on par with Shika Fujin 



> You might just want to read the beginning of part 2.
> I'll just briefly summarize it for you if you are too lazy to do so.



I read it I just don't see Deidara as being Kage level



> Deidara waltzes in sand village unprepared and casually abducts their kage. So yes, he is easily mid Kage level, considering that Gaara is a low Kage.



How is that so, a stronger Gaara in the war fought a close fight with 4th Kazekage who is considered low kage by many on the forums , so how can Gaara in pt 2 who would be utterly destroyed by 4th kazekage be low kage level if the forums consider 4th Kazekage to be the weakest Kage in the manga 



Oh man. 

Please read the manga.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2014)

_*Itachi with all his MS powers>Hebi Sasuke>>>Itachi without Susanoo.*_

It would say Itachi with/without Susanoo could give some Kage level ninja (even some of the Gokage like Mei and Gaara) a good fight. He can fight on their level. 
With the ranking I've given Hebi Sasuke, even though he's beneath full power Itachi (aka Susanoo Itachi) and above Itachi (minus Susanoo), it should be reasonable enough to say he can fight with Kage level shinobi. 

Kakashi prior MS was always just a little bit below Kage level (when Sharingan drained him a lot). Post time skip, it would be safe to say he is on the Kage level at least. Base Itachi could fight on base Kakashi's level (though showed not to be on Kakashi's battle intelligence level). Regardless of whose stronger than whom, it is safe to say that base Itachi and Kakashi would be able to take on Yamato, Sai and Naruto (pre FRS arc) and do okay, not do too smoothly (base Itachi, for example), yet not take them too lightly (Kakashi base)... yet Sasuke took these guys whilst taking them lightly. 
This was prior Hebi, we could say: _*base Sasuke>base Itachi (as shown by their fight) and base Sasuke>base Kakashi (part 2)>base Kakashi (part 1).*_

Already we could say, *only in base form*, Sasuke was closer to Kage level than two very powerful shinobi (whom some would rank as Kage). Throw in the extra powers he didn't use in, and we could say Sasuke just makes it on Kage level, or at least is very, very slightly below it*. Hebi powers cement Sasuke into Kage level, especially when you consider he also had access to an armless Orochimaru's abilities. 

*He defo makes it if you consider his hawk summons and snake summons (example: Aoda and Manda).

So, you could say that Hebi Sasuke was mid Kage level. Story wise it makes sense, Naruto hadn't grown up and for that reason Sasuke was always noticeably ahead of Naruto.
Whilst Naruto made it to low Kage level (post FRS arc), Sasuke made it to mid (edging to high) Kage level. 

Bear in mind being saying he's on par with a current Gokage shinobi isn't a particularly good measure. For instance, with the Hebi arc, you could say Sasuke was defo Kage level because of shinobi like Gaara and Mei (both debatable). Yet put him in Hiruzen's prime time and he would defo not be Kage level (due to the likes of prime Hiruzen, Sandaime Raikage, Oonoki and Sandaime Kazekage). Let alone the era of the Yondaime Kages... lets not even consider the Shodai/Nidaime eras.

That is an era dependent Kage tier ranking which would always be subject to change. Rather than make a desperate attempt to put him on Kage level (via era dependency), it'd better to use one/two characters, whom represent Kage level (lowest bracket, for example base Kakashi/base Itachi) as a measure and see how Sasuke compares. Rather than possibly underestimate Gokage members such as Gaara and Mei*.

*Both of whom did decently against a Sasuke who was stronger than Hebi Sasuke.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

> He went to fight an opponent he knew was much stronger than Orochimaru, so that's untrue.



Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison






> She sent a similar team to capture Itachi (who rolls with Kisame.) _I guess they're not worth Tsunade's time either, hurr._.



she sent 8 shinobi all of whom have skillsets that could track and give Itachi and many keg level ninja trouble , hey you said it not me 





> In his youth, he was, but he certainly wasn't by the time he died. Ōnoki got faster with age. (Stated by Deidara.)



last time I checked Ononki was still old when Old Hiruzen fought Orochimaru







> Soloing tailed beasts, capturing the Kazekage in his own village, nearly defeating Team Kakashi and Team Gai without arms, having village-destoying jutsu...



he captured a Gaara that was stated to only be Kazkekage due to political reasons and was much weaker than 4th Kazekage who is considered the weakest kage on the forums , no Kakashi, Naruto were handing deidara his ass and he retreated , he was also defeated by Omio, Sai, Kankuro


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## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your high as shit dude.  
Gaara stands at the top of the kage!

As the trollkage said, he is the golden child.

1v1 the only current Kage who could stand a chance against him is Onoki, and I even have doubts about that.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> Your high as shit dude.
> Gaara stands at the top of the kage!
> 
> As the trollkage said, he is the golden child.
> ...



Golden Child meant h would eventually be the strongest , as in most potential , i do agree though as  of now he's probably the strongest , but look how far along we are in the manga , he was weaker than 4th Kazekage at the start of pt 2


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 6, 2014)

That event took place before Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru. 

And consdering that it wasn't even a real fight, yeah you may say that Oro's miserable performance could be attributed to his weakened state.




> He went in with a plan, I've already explained this.


So this guy thinks himself & Orochimaru can't defeat Itachi,  after absorbing Orochimaru though he is condifent enough to challenge him and your saying this he is weaker than Orochimaru ? But that makes no sense 


I adressed this above. 
Pre Oro absorbtion Sasuke was obviously weaker than the post version. 

The whole point of  this conversation was to emphasize that : Rashoumon




> Clearly, but that wasn't the argument being made. What was said that anybody granted the title of kage is automatically kage-level no matter what. Clearly that's not true.



Well, that is why I said they don't grant that title to anyone. It is something that you have to earn.




Eliyua23 said:


> Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison



I adressed it on Vice's post. 




> She contemplated leaving with Jiraiya to go face Pain, in most cases missions don't require Kage level ninjas , we've seen in the war kage level ninja would leave their post when said threat is deemed necessary or in instances where there is a world threat like Madara Uchiha


Yes, both Pain and Madara are special cases even among the Kage Tier.
You'd agree that a hokage leaving his post would be an extreme circumstance.You don't come by guys like Pain or Madara very often.




> what fight were you watching , Kakashi was fighting on par with Kazkuzu


The one where Kakashi got almost killed twice and had to be saved by team mates.

Not taking Kakuzu's first kick into account ofc, had Kakuzu decided to ambush Kakashi with something more dramatic, the fight would be over @ that point.




> I would say they were evenly matched


How were they evenly matched when Kakashi was barely keeping up even with support from other people  and would end up dead otherwise ? 




> shit Kakashi said he would've been able to defeat Kazkuzu with Kamui


He impled he had more tricks up his sleeve, referring to Kamui but he never said he'd be able to defeat Kakuzu with it.
There is no way Kakashi could know it would grant him victory. 



> even with power scaling Mei has nothing on par with Shika Fujin


Why ? Is that a criteria ?

Not many people have things on par with Shiki Fujin, that doesn't mean they aren't stronger than Hiruzen, or they can't shitstomp him.

Shiki Fuuin is a suicide tech, I wouldn't say that it reflects someones power anyway.



> I read it I just don't see Deidara as being Kage level


Well then you are certainly in denial. And no, I am not talking about the Nile in Egypt 






> How is that so, a stronger Gaara in the war fought a close fight with 4th Kazekage who is considered low kage by many on the forums , so how can Gaara in pt 2 who would be utterly destroyed by 4th kazekage be low kage level if the forums consider 4th Kazekage to be the weakest Kage in the manga


The fuck with what the forum think.

Jinchuuriki Gaara in desert environment wasn't any less impressive than the current Gaara. Did you see the amount of sand he casually moved around ?

And I wouldn't say it was a close battle with the 4th, Gaara half chaptered that shit.

Current Gaara is borderline mid kage, but still weaker than Deidara.




> Oh man.
> 
> Please read the manga.



Which part of what I described wasn't in the manga ? 




Shariwin said:


> The guy who said Naruto is a chunin without Kurama is speaking here folks.
> 
> Better take this shit serious!!!



You better


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

[





> I]*Itachi with all his MS powers>Hebi Sasuke>>>Itachi without Susanoo.*[/I]



Obito indicated something totally differently he said Itachi was just overall the stronger shinobi, think about it Itachi had superior knowledge , he knew everything Sasuke was going to do besides Kirin, so you could say Kirin could've killed Itachi w/o Susanoo but we don't know when in that battle could Itachi had finished him if he wanted to , anytime your metagaming a fight in your favor you have to be significantly stronger than the opponent.



> It would say Itachi with/without Susanoo could give some Kage level ninja (even some of the Gokage like Mei and Gaara) a good fight. He can fight on their level.
> With the ranking I've given Hebi Sasuke, even though he's beneath full power Itachi (aka Susanoo Itachi) and above Itachi (minus Susanoo), it should be reasonable enough to say he can fight with Kage level shinobi.



To be honest I don't think he can compete with any Kage in the manga w/o Susanoo, Mei and 4th Kazekage are considered to be on the lower tier and they have shown abilities that would utterly destroy him if he cant defend himself with Susanoo, and another thing is that Itachi was suffering from illness and going blind 



> Kakashi prior MS was always just a little bit below Kage level (when Sharingan drained him a lot). Post time skip, it would be safe to say he is on the Kage level at least. Base Itachi could fight on base Kakashi's level (though showed not to be on Kakashi's battle intelligence level). Regardless of whose stronger than whom, it is safe to say that base Itachi and Kakashi would be able to take on Yamato, Sai and Naruto (pre FRS arc) and do okay, not do too smoothly (base Itachi, for example), yet not take them too lightly (Kakashi base)... yet Sasuke took these guys whilst taking them lightly.
> This was prior Hebi, we could say: _*base Sasuke>base Itachi (as shown by their fight) and base Sasuke>base Kakashi (part 2)>base Kakashi (part 1).*_



Kakashi w/o MS was shaking in his boots at fighting a Sannin and wasn't even considered for being 5th Hokage after Hiruzen's death, thats why they had to go get Tsunade, shit even before the Pain Arc Jiraiya didn't think kakashi was ready , to be honest he didn't really get consideration until after tha Pain Arc and tsunade was comatose , and at that point he was the bare minim strength needed to be Kage ''think about it like this lets say a ninja needed to have 100 pts to be Hokage 

kakashi w/o MS = 75

Kakashi before Pain Arc=90

Kakashi after Pain Arc=100

Sasuke was fighting a Naruto that was tired from just fighting orochimaru and unwilling to tap into KN4, Naruto goes KN4 would utterly destroy Sasuke, Sai and Yammato, Kakashi or Itachi would take them in base form as well




> Already we could say, *only in base form*, Sasuke was closer to Kage level than two very powerful shinobi (whom some would rank as Kage). Throw in the extra powers he didn't use in, and we could say Sasuke just makes it on Kage level, or at least is very, very slightly below it*. Hebi powers cement Sasuke into Kage level, especially when you consider he also had access to an armless Orochimaru's abilities.



he problem with that is Sasuke had already admitted to being weaker than Armless Orochimaru, in his Hebi form he did not have access to all of Orochimaru's jutsu not even close he never took his Hebi powers to the max like Kabuto did , 

Sasuke didn't start to perform at a Kage level until he awakened Susanoo, Susanoo was stated time and time again shit even know to be the caveat of Itachi,Sasuke, Madara's sharingan prowess, 

He was getting destroyed by Bee and Raikage two Kage class fighters until Susanoo came into the picture then from there he was Kage level, same with Naruto and Sage Mode, only when he achieved Sage Mode was he able to fight on par with Kage Level ninjas as shown throughout the war,

FRS Naruto and Hebi Sasuke were shown to be much weaker than Sick Itachi , not even in the ball park, shit Itachi tells Sasuke that he needed MS just to fight him, so that tells me that MS made up the difference between them two , now if Sasuke had taken his Hebi powers to Kabuto's heights then maybe we could have a discussion of him being on par with Kage level ninja 





> So, you could say that Hebi Sasuke was mid Kage level. Story wise it makes sense, Naruto hadn't grown up and for that reason Sasuke was always noticeably ahead of Naruto.
> Whilst Naruto made it to low Kage level (post FRS arc), Sasuke made it to mid (edging to high) Kage level.



Sasuke was only stronger than Naruto because he refused to use Kurama's power with Kurama's power he was stronger than Sasuke probably since the rooftop,from a story perspective it doesn't add up with what has been shown 

Naruto and Sasuke didn't take on Kage level opponents and hold their own until MS and SM, thats not to say Sasuke couldn't have reached that level with Hebi its just he didn't use the power to its max potential as it was taken away too soon, think about it it would be like saying once Sasuke got MS he was Kage level Nooo, he had to train MS to reach kage level , same thing applies to Naruto with SM and Kurama 



> Bear in mind being saying he's on par with a current Gokage shinobi isn't a particularly good measure. For instance, with the Hebi arc, you could say Sasuke was defo Kage level because of shinobi like Gaara and Mei (both debatable). Yet put him in Hiruzen's prime time and he would defo not be Kage level (due to the likes of prime Hiruzen, Sandaime Raikage, Oonoki and Sandaime Kazekage). Let alone the era of the Yondaime Kages... lets not even consider the Shodai/Nidaime eras.



Both Gaara and Mei would defeat Sasuke based upon what they have shown but I do agree it would be a close fight but I would lead more towards Gokage 




> That is an era dependent Kage tier ranking which would always be subject to change. Rather than make a desperate attempt to put him on Kage level (via era dependency), it'd better to use one/two characters, whom represent Kage level (lowest bracket, for example base Kakashi/base Itachi) as a measure and see how Sasuke compares. Rather than possibly underestimate Gokage members such as Gaara and Mei*.
> 
> *Both of whom did decently against a Sasuke who was stronger than Hebi Sasuke.



Base Itachi nor Base Kakashi are Kage level, kakashi wasn't even considered for the kage seat until after the Pain Arc


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## Shariwin (Jan 6, 2014)

Kakashi wasn't considered for the Kage seat, because he is inferior to the sannin.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That event took place before Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru.



lol wut.



> And consdering that it wasn't even a real fight, yeah you may say that Oro's miserable performance could be attributed to his weakened state.



This is, you know, the whole point.



> So this guy thinks himself & Orochimaru can't defeat Itachi,  after absorbing Orochimaru though he is condifent enough to challenge him



Because he had a plan. 



> and your saying this he is weaker than Orochimaru ?



I didn't say it, Sasuke himself said it.



> But that makes no sense



Don't really care, it's what happened.



> I adressed this above.
> Pre Oro absorbtion Sasuke was obviously weaker than the post version.



Pre Oro absorption Sasuke and post absorption Sasuke are basically the same thing, as I have again already explained. 

Orochimaru's chakra didn't come into play until after Sasuke had used all of his and by then the battle was over.



> The whole point of  this conversation was to emphasize that : Rashoumon



Quotes from beginning of part 2 Sasuke concerning Itachi has nothing to do with Hebi Sasuke and where he ranks compared to Orochimaru.

Sasuke and Orochimaru being weaker than Itachi suggests nothing concerning Sasuke being stronger than Orochimaru.


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## Jagger (Jan 6, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That event took place before Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru.


Actually, that was after.

Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru after he defeated him, which happened before Sasuke's fight with Deidara.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 6, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Kimimaro's CS2 slowing him down was also stated to because he hadn't adapted to the transformed body.
> 
> Sasuke was stated to have mastered the Curse Seal, so his CS2 would logically be faster than his CS1.
> 
> The same is presumably true for Jūgo as well.



A little late but Sasuke and Kimmi were the same with CS.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 6, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke only defeated orochimaru due to his weakend state . Sasuke admitted to the fact this was the only reason then it ws implied by  suigetsu upon orochimarus return

Some people seriously think hebi sasuke can defete the gokages? Raikage, gaara, and onoki would fodderize hebi sasuke rather easily 

Current Gaara would brutally destroy Deidara with ease


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

I'm sure most in here only feel the way that they do because they're Itachi fans and are using this as a vehicle to further wank him.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Pre Oro absorption Sasuke and post absorption Sasuke are basically the same thing, as I have again already explained.
> 
> Orochimaru's chakra didn't come into play until after Sasuke had used all of his and by then the battle was over.





Master Sephiroth said:


> Absorbing Orochimaru gave him some passive abilities. He mentions "abilities" in that page, which indicate that the snake abilities he got were from absorbing Orochimaru. He has a snake summon and CS on his own, but everything else snake related was directly from absorbing Orochimaru, or at least is implied that way.



Hope you didn't ignore that earlier.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> I'm sure most in here only feel the way that they do because they're Itachi fans and are using this as a vehicle to further wank him.



Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Kisame are all highly touted by the Itachi fans on the board , its an insecure ploy because you don't see Minato fans wanking  Ei or Obito , you don't see Naruto fans wanking Kakuzu or Sasuke fans wanking Deidara , because Sasuke, Naruto, Minato fans have actual feats in the manga that make them secure in their favorite characters standing within the manga, where Itachi's feats in the actual manga don't speak for themselves they have to wank other characters to propel him.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Hope you didn't ignore that earlier.



There's nothing suggesting that Sasuke couldn't use those techniques before. He has the Sharingan, none of those techniques are bloodline limits.

And again, Orochimaru's chakra didn't become a factor until he had used up all of his own. That was after the fight was already over.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> There's nothing suggesting that Sasuke couldn't use those techniques before. He has the Sharingan, none of those techniques are bloodline limits.
> 
> And again, Orochimaru's chakra didn't become a factor until he had used up all of his own. That was after the fight was already over.



Why have we not seen any snake techniques from Sasuke ever again since Hebi? The curse seal didn't arbitrarily grant him snake powers, so that's out of the question. 

And Sasuke stated that he absorbed Orochimaru's "abilities". Three different sites say the same thing.

Absorbing Orochimaru gave him some passive abilities.
Absorbing Orochimaru gave him some passive abilities.
Absorbing Orochimaru gave him some passive abilities.

Unless someone has a Viz scan that says otherwise, Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru's abilities.


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## Vice (Jan 6, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Why have we not seen any snake techniques from Sasuke ever again since Hebi? The curse seal didn't arbitrarily grant him snake powers, so that's out of the question.



Because he got Susanoo to sit inside of and Amaterasu to spam shortly after that fight and didn't need them anymore.



> And Sasuke stated that he absorbed Orochimaru's "abilities". Three different sites say the same thing.
> 
> Unless someone has a Viz scan that says otherwise, Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru's abilities.



And specifically sites an improved healing factor, the one ability of Orochimaru's that the Sharingan wouldn't be able to replicate.

Again, nothing suggests he couldn't replicate the snake feats on his own.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> [Obito indicated something totally differently he said Itachi was just overall the stronger shinobi, think about it Itachi had superior knowledge , he knew everything Sasuke was going to do besides Kirin, so you could say Kirin could've killed Itachi w/o Susanoo but we don't know when in that battle could Itachi had finished him if he wanted to , anytime your metagaming a fight in your favor you have to be significantly stronger than the opponent.



Knowledge didn't help him, it only helped him to realise he would have to hold back Susanoo. 
I said Itachi overall was stronger note the "Susanoo Itachi>Hebi Sasuke" part.



> To be honest I don't think he can compete with any Kage in the manga w/o Susanoo, Mei and 4th Kazekage are considered to be on the lower tier and they have shown abilities that would utterly destroy him if he cant defend himself with Susanoo, and another thing is that Itachi was suffering from illness and going blind



He may be able to hold his own for a while, but obviously his chances of winning reduce without Susanoo. However the point was he could hold his own for a while. 



> Kakashi w/o MS was shaking in his boots at fighting a Sannin and wasn't even considered for being 5th Hokage after Hiruzen's death, thats why they had to go get Tsunade, shit even before the Pain Arc Jiraiya didn't think kakashi was ready , to be honest he didn't really get consideration until after tha Pain Arc and tsunade was comatose , and at that point he was the bare minim strength needed to be Kage ''think about it like this lets say a ninja needed to have 100 pts to be Hokage
> 
> kakashi w/o MS = 75
> 
> ...



Read the post carefully. I said Kakashi w/o MS was close to Kage level, not comfortably there.
Jiraiya thought Kakashi was a good choice.

Before Pain arc, you could still say Kakashi was on the level he was post-Pain arc. Unless you're talking about a Naruto augmented Kakashi with the tricks he picked up.

Be honest with yourself, do you think Naruto would have made *any* difference? Sasuke would suppress KN4 easily. I was considering that scenario; your discussing another one altogether.



> he problem with that is Sasuke had already admitted to being weaker than Armless Orochimaru, in his Hebi form he did not have access to all of Orochimaru's jutsu not even close he never took his Hebi powers to the max like Kabuto did ,
> 
> Sasuke didn't start to perform at a Kage level until he awakened Susanoo, Susanoo was stated time and time again shit even know to be the caveat of Itachi,Sasuke, Madara's sharingan prowess,
> 
> ...



So? It changes pre-Hebi Sasuke's level *not* Hebi Sasuke's level. 
Sasuke had an armless Orochimaru's powers, as Zetsu implied; obviously this means he'd lack jutsu which require Orochimaru's arms. Kabuto had data/knowledge on what to improve and what not to improve. Plus his time with Orochimaru gave him time to know what Hebi powers to improve.

You're wrong: Sasuke didn't attain _high_ Kage level till his Mangekyou came into play. With Hebi, he was mid level at most. Naruto is a different ball park altogether; prior SM arc, he was never close to Sasuke's power.

Hebi Sasuke was never shown to be weaker than sick Itachi. Sick Itachi who lacks Susanoo and only has slight differences from his prime self; a sickness which didn't influence the parts Sasuke was being assessed in. Kakashi was low Kage at most (consider MS), if Naruto surpassed him, it automatically puts him there too.

If Sasuke took the Hebi skills to Kabuto's level, then he'd not be mid Kage like he was... he'd be looking at exceeding Kage level, which Kabuto did.



> Sasuke was only stronger than Naruto because he refused to use Kurama's power with Kurama's power he was stronger than Sasuke probably since the rooftop,from a story perspective it doesn't add up with what has been shown
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke didn't take on Kage level opponents and hold their own until MS and SM, thats not to say Sasuke couldn't have reached that level with Hebi its just he didn't use the power to its max potential as it was taken away too soon, think about it it would be like saying once Sasuke got MS he was Kage level Nooo, he had to train MS to reach kage level , same thing applies to Naruto with SM and Kurama



It adds up. Naruto's power could always be suppressed, no matter how you look at it. The only exception is when Naruto willingly uses *and controls* the power. If the Bijuu controls it, Sasuke's eyes (which control it) could suppress it. 
The roof top stuff is ancient history, even Naruto admits he wasn't strong enough to do anything about Sasuke.

Naruto had a Kage level foe: Kakuzu. Sasuke had Kage level foes: Deidara and a Susanoo-less Itachi.
Akatsuki members can be considered Kage level; the level Sasuke faced probably low to mid. Still Kage, however.



> Both Gaara and Mei would defeat Sasuke based upon what they have shown but I do agree it would be a close fight but I would lead more towards Gokage



The here fact it would be a close fight implies Sasuke would be considered Kage level.
Also as I suggested, I'm not a fan of going by the "weakest Kage by era" standard. It implies that Kage level degrades as the timelime progresses.



> Base Itachi nor Base Kakashi are Kage level, kakashi wasn't even considered for the kage seat until after the Pain Arc



Kage level doesn't depend on your seat; that's a rank. Shinobi can still fight on Kage level without being considered official Kage. 

See the link I provided earlier before the Pain arc he was considered. Base Itachi with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (both top tier jutsu) would obviously be considered Kage level. So they are both adequate measures to determine if Hebi Sasuke is on the Kage level.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 6, 2014)

Vice said:


> Because he got Susanoo to sit inside of and Amaterasu to spam shortly after that fight and didn't need them anymore.



And before he used Susano'o, i.e against Bee? Not a single snake technique used. 



> And specifically sites an improved healing factor, the one ability of Orochimaru's that the Sharingan wouldn't be able to replicate.
> 
> Again, nothing suggests he couldn't replicate the snake feats on his own.



Nothing ever suggests he ever had the snake feats prior to absorbing Orochimaru. And he said abilities, not ability. The evidence is all there, telling you that Sasuke gained Orochimaru's abilities by absorbing him. Unless you have any proof of him using snake abilities prior to Hebi and after, your assertion is baseless. Even if he could have learned snake abilities over the time skip, there's nothing suggesting that he actually _did_ learn them.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 6, 2014)

> Knowledge didn't help him, it only helped him to realise he would have to hold back Susanoo.
> I said Itachi overall was stronger note the "Susanoo Itachi>Hebi Sasuke" part.



How didn't knowledge help him he knew Sasuke and Orochimaru were fused , he fought the entire fight to draw Orochimaru out , like I said Obito did not specify in which instances he held back.




> He may be able to hold his own for a while, but obviously his chances of winning reduce without Susanoo. However the point was he could hold his own for a while.



I agree with this but nevertheless he would be defeated 





> Read the post carefully. I said Kakashi w/o MS was close to Kage level, not comfortably there.
> Jiraiya thought Kakashi was a good choice.



Kakashi was a good

Jiraiya specifies Kakashi would be a good selection in the future but he still believed Tsunade was the best for the job, Kakashi didn't become a viable actual candidate until post Pain Arc ,

Kakashi w/o MS has no feats that would make him Kage level or his name would've been mentioned after Hiruzen's death 





> Before Pain arc, you could still say Kakashi was on the level he was post-Pain arc. Unless you're talking about a Naruto augmented Kakashi with the tricks he picked up.



Kakashi power is increasing along with his students obviously not at the same rate but he is steady improving , his feats in the Pain Arc were superior to that of his feats in the immortals arc , thats what I was talking about , he became stronger than FRS Naruto whom he said surpassed him, just like in this war his usage of Kamui puts him on the level of the Sannin .




> Be honest with yourself, do you think Naruto would have made *any* difference? Sasuke would suppress KN4 easily. I was considering that scenario; your discussing another one altogether.



If you wanna say Sasuke being able to defeat a Naruto w/o Kurama who honestly hadn't even shown much outside of Kyuubi hen fine but unless KN4 comes into play that victory isn't all that impressive, also Yammato was obviously holding back at first and warned Naruto and Sakura that he would harm Sasuke , if Sasuke had continued to fight there would've been a chance he would've been killed 




> So? It changes pre-Hebi Sasuke's level *not* Hebi Sasuke's level.
> Sasuke had an armless Orochimaru's powers, as Zetsu implied; obviously this means he'd lack jutsu which require Orochimaru's arms. Kabuto had data/knowledge on what to improve and what not to improve. Plus his time with Orochimaru gave him time to know what Hebi powers to improve.



he could only utilize Orochimaru's jutsu when he was out of chakra so technically its Orochimaru taking over , Sasuke couldn't use the level of what Orochimaru showed in pt 2 , he couldn't willingly use 8th branch techniques or the other techniques Orochimaru showed vs KN4, 

Thats my point Kabuto took Hebi powers to the highest heights Sasuke was simply a novice with them , name one power where the person receives it where they don't have to train with it to improve upon it , Sasuke never trained or improved with his Hebi powers the fore he was still a novice with them.





> You're wrong: Sasuke didn't attain _high_ Kage level till his Mangekyou came into play. With Hebi, he was mid level at most. Naruto is a different ball park altogether; prior SM arc, he was never close to Sasuke's power.



High Kage Level he didn't reach that level until the Danzo fight and maybe the war , Minato, Hashirama, Edo Itachi those are high kage level shinobi, the only characters above Kage level are Rikudo Sennin and Juubito , he wasn't able to fight on par with a single Kage level fighter until he activated Susanoo against Raikage , before that he was stomped by Itachi,Bee, and Raikage , but once he activated Susanoo his showings from then on out improved , 

Danzo is probably high Kage he wouldn't be able to face Danzo w/o Susanoo 



> Hebi Sasuke was never shown to be weaker than sick Itachi. Sick Itachi who lacks Susanoo and only has slight differences from his prime self; a sickness which didn't influence the parts Sasuke was being assessed in. Kakashi was low Kage at most (consider MS), if Naruto surpassed him, it automatically puts him there too.



WHAT Obito flat out said Itachi was stronger than him , he didn't specify whether is was due to Susanoo , if Itachi can mete game a fight against Hebi Sasuke its safe to say he's on another level comfortably ,

Kakashi wasn't a viable Kage candidate until after tha Pain Arc and so was Naruto , their performance against Pain put them both in the Kage level, before that not so much , think about it the scan you showed me , had Jiraiya say Naruto was far away but after Pain Arc many people considered him to be a viable candidate 



> If Sasuke took the Hebi skills to Kabuto's level, then he'd not be mid Kage like he was... he'd be looking at exceeding Kage level, which Kabuto did.



Kabuto wasn't just made up of Hebi though he injected himself with Suigestu, Uzumaki, Juugo DNA so Kabuto was Hebi+Uzumaki+suigestu+Juugo thats what put him that high , but even with all that he still wasn't as strong as someone like Hashirama who as strong as he was wasn't above Kage level, 

like I said above only Rikudo Sennin and Juubito reached a level above Kages





> It adds up. Naruto's power could always be suppressed, no matter how you look at it. The only exception is when Naruto willingly uses *and controls* the power. If the Bijuu controls it, Sasuke's eyes (which control it) could suppress it.
> The roof top stuff is ancient history, even Naruto admits he wasn't strong enough to do anything about Sasuke.



the only reason Sasuke was able to surpass it because Naruto wasn't willingly ready to tap into its power , and no the roof top incident clearly shows Naruto was stronger, against Sasuke at VOTE he didn't summon gambuta , in pt 2 he wouldn't touch Kurama's power 




> Naruto had a Kage level foe: Kakuzu. Sasuke had Kage level foes: Deidara and a Susanoo-less Itachi.
> Akatsuki members can be considered Kage level; the level Sasuke faced probably low to mid. Still Kage, however.



Kakuzu and Deidara are elite jounin fighters 

Pain and Danzo represented the Kage level foes 

Raikage+Bee and Toad Mountain were their training sessions leading up to their Kage level fights and its fitting seeing as how Sasuke became a Kage level fighter in the arc he's fighting KAGE





> The here fact it would be a close fight implies Sasuke would be considered Kage level.
> Also as I suggested, I'm not a fan of going by the "weakest Kage by era" standard. It implies that Kage level degrades as the timelime progresses.



I don't think the fact it was close means much because Mei hasn't really shown much thats why she gets underrated , same with 4th Kazekage , and many shinobi can fight with shinobi that are stronger than them if the stipulations were right , Kabuto who was elite jounin level was able to fight on par with Tsunade ect




> Kage level doesn't depend on your seat; that's a rank. Shinobi can still fight on Kage level without being considered official Kage.



what feats have they shown in base that indicates their cage level, even with MS Jiraiya still didn't think Kakashi was ready



> See the link I provided earlier before the Pain arc he was considered. Base Itachi with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (both top tier jutsu) would obviously be considered Kage level. So they are both adequate measures to determine if Hebi Sasuke is on the Kage level.



the MS isn't the same thing as base Itachi is you add in MS techs minus Susanoo there can be a debate but there is nothing in the manga that indicates Itachi w/o MS is  Kage level ninja , to be honest his base form is kind of underwhelming 

I saw the scan , it also said Jirairya didn't think he was quite ready


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## Ghost (Jan 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Kisame are all highly touted by the Itachi fans on the board , its an insecure ploy because you don't see Minato fans wanking  Ei or Obito , you don't see Naruto fans wanking Kakuzu or Sasuke fans wanking Deidara , because Sasuke, Naruto, Minato fans have actual feats in the manga that make them secure in their favorite characters standing within the manga, where Itachi's feats in the actual manga don't speak for themselves they have to wank other characters to propel him.



This cancer exceeds even SSM12's. 

YOU ARE THE SITH LORD WE'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR?!


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## Vice (Jan 7, 2014)

Uh, that's exactly how it is.


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## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Kisame are all highly touted by the Itachi fans on the board , its an insecure ploy because you don't see Minato fans wanking  Ei or Obito , you don't see Naruto fans wanking Kakuzu or Sasuke fans wanking Deidara , because Sasuke, Naruto, Minato fans have actual feats in the manga that make them secure in their favorite characters standing within the manga, where Itachi's feats in the actual manga don't speak for themselves they have to wank other characters to propel him.



We might disagree on some stuff, but this right here is 100% fact.
It's quite annoying too.  They have distorted the ENTIRE series to make their fantasy fanboy delusions seem plausible.




Master Sephiroth said:


> And before he used Susano'o, i.e against Bee? Not a single snake technique used.
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing ever suggests he ever had the snake feats prior to absorbing Orochimaru. And he said abilities, not ability. The evidence is all there, telling you that Sasuke gained Orochimaru's abilities by absorbing him. Unless you have any proof of him using snake abilities prior to Hebi and after, your assertion is baseless. Even if he could have learned snake abilities over the time skip, there's nothing suggesting that he actually _did_ learn them.



What is this BS!?  Orochimaru TRAINED him for 3 years!  What do you think they trained?  Origami? Orochimaru was training him in his techniques!  At the start of part 2, we saw Sasuke tell Orochimaru that he was supposed to teach him a new technique today.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Kisame are all highly touted by the Itachi fans on the board.




Deidara _captured_ Gaara _in the desert_ and Kisame _captured_ _Killer Bee_ then _noted how easy it was to do_. 

Both Gaara in the desert and Killer Bee are obviously on the upper end of the Kage spectrum, as they can defeat multiple weaker Kage at once.

Several Kage would be unable to capture Gaara in the desert or Killer Bee.

Itachi fans just aren't retarded, so they don't argue that Deidara and Kisame are sub-Kage level. (And Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara while holding back.)

Also, A-rank canonically means Jōnin/Kage level, so S-rank means Kage level. Akatsuki was stated to be all S-rank ninja.

Yes, even Hidan (Kishimoto had planned to show more of Hidan's jutsu but was unable to because of his editors or something.) 

~

You call it an insecure ploy, but it's just another instance of non-fans of Itachi being laughably wrong.

This thread's topic isn't even debatable.

So if you take a rest with the tiresome conspiracy theories, you can see that even neutral parties like Kai, Alex Payne, etc. know the answer is obvious.

It's anti-fans (although you aren't one, you're just really wrong in this instance) are making up the bulk of the opposition.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> As opposed to saying they're _not Kage level_?
> 
> You have to be retarded to think they wouldn't beat old Hiruzen, Mei, etc.



A>B>C logic doesn't work in Naruto. Beating Hiruzen doesn't just grant you kage level.


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## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara captured Gaara _in the desert_ and Kisame captured _Killer Bee_.
> 
> Both individuals are obviously on the upper end of the Kage spectrum.
> 
> ...



Deidara went in with a perfect plan to exploit his surroundings, and bypass Gaara's defense.
Kisame's sword defeated Bee, not Kisame.

 A>B>C is a fallacy!  It's not that simple!


Sasuke was holding back now?!  ROFL!!!
Sort of like when Itachi was holding back, but died of exhaustion, lol!
Okay, sure, Sasuke was holding back so much that he was barely able to walk at the end of the fight.  
It was basically a fucking draw, until Deidara committed suicide.

Stop making shit up!

You see?  You kids have to distort the entire series to make your delusions make sense!


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## Ghost (Jan 7, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> You see?  You kids have to distort the entire series to make your delusions make sense!



>is 14 **


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## Baroxio (Jan 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> >is 14 **


Suddenly it all makes sense.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> A>B>C logic doesn't work in Naruto. Beating Hiruzen doesn't just grant you kage level.





Shariwin said:


> A>B>C is a fallacy!  It's not that simple!




Guys. Come on.

There is no C. This is:

"A (level being debated) > B (Kage level)" in the manga, so "A's combat level is therefore at least Kage level."  

"A > B > C" would be saying that "Itachi paneled Orochimaru, who Jiraiya is about equal to, so Itachi panels Jiraiya." This is not that. 




Shariwin said:


> Sasuke was holding back now?!  ROFL!!!




It was stated that he wasn't using his best option/plan because he wanted info on Itachi (and therefore wasn't trying to kill Deidara.)


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## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Sorry, but you can't use that logic, especially when we absolutely know they had HUGE advantages in those fights.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Kisame are all highly touted by the Itachi fans on the board , its an insecure ploy because you don't see Minato fans wanking  Ei or Obito , you don't see Naruto fans wanking Kakuzu or Sasuke fans wanking Deidara , because Sasuke, Naruto, Minato fans have actual feats in the manga that make them secure in their favorite characters standing within the manga, where Itachi's feats in the actual manga don't speak for themselves they have to wank other characters to propel him.





saikyou said:


> This cancer exceeds even SSM12's.
> 
> YOU ARE THE SITH LORD WE'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR?!





Vice said:


> Uh, that's exactly how it is.



Lawl. It is actually some true shit. Itachi fans tend to try and hype up Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Orochimaru, etc in the efforts to make their favorite character look better. But they are not the only fans guilty of doing that though so its kind of harsh to single them out.

Funny though. In this thread the people that are usually wrong on a majority of what they say like Kyokan, Selim, etc I find agreeable while the people I usual agree with and know what they are talking about like Ichlieb, Vice, etc. I disagree with here.

I thought Hebi Sasuke being Kage level was common sense. Kakashi was Kage level at immortals arc and Post Fuuton Base Naruto was on par or better than him. While Hebi Sasuke was better than both of them. Someone who can hang with Itachi and barely best Deidara should logically be Kage level.


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## Baroxio (Jan 7, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Lawl. It is actually some true shit. Itachi fans tend to try and hype up Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Orochimaru, etc in the efforts to make their favorite character look better. But they are not the only fans guilty of doing that though so its kind of harsh to single them out.
> 
> Funny though. In this thread the people that are usually wrong on a majority of what they say like Kyokan, Selim, etc I find agreeable while the people I usual agree with and know what they are talking about like Ichlieb, Vice, etc. I disagree with here.
> 
> I thought Hebi Sasuke being Kage level was common sense. Kakashi was Kage level at immortals arc and Post Fuuton Base Naruto was on par or better than him. While Hebi Sasuke was better than both of them. Someone who can hang with Itachi and barely best Deidara should logically be Kage level.


^ /thread.


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## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Lawl. It is actually some true shit. Itachi fans tend to try and hype up Deidara, Hebi Sasuke, Orochimaru, etc in the efforts to make their favorite character look better. But they are not the only fans guilty of doing that though so its kind of harsh to single them out.
> 
> Funny though. In this thread the people that are usually wrong on a majority of what they say like Kyokan, Selim, etc I find agreeable while the people I usual agree with and know what they are talking about like Ichlieb, Vice, etc. I disagree with here.
> 
> I thought Hebi Sasuke being Kage level was common sense. Kakashi was Kage level at immortals arc and Post Fuuton Base Naruto was on par or better than him. While Hebi Sasuke was better than both of them. Someone who can hang with Itachi and barely best Deidara should logically be Kage level.



That's like Faux News calling out other channels for being biased as well.  Equivalence fallacy!

Hebi sasuke being an elite jonin is common sense.
Hebi Sasuke being low Kage is stretching.


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## The World (Jan 7, 2014)

Hebi Sauce is high jounin/lowest of the low tier Kage


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

> [QUDeidara _captured_ Gaara _in the desert_ and Kisame _captured_ _Killer Bee_ then _noted how easy it was to do_.



Deidara captured a Gaara who was made Kage for political reasons , and also was unable to use said topological advantage to his advantage because he didnt want to harm the village

Deidara also was weaker than Hebi Sasuke , Hebi Sasuke said he could've defeated Deidara with more ease had he not wanted to interrogate him

Deidara also lost to the likes of Omio, Sai, kankuro and overall had the most embarrassing display by any of the edo tensei despite kishimoto saying he could exploit edo tensei body the most .


Kisame also was defeated by Gai and Jiraiya with ease , even despite Kisame losing to Jiraiya and admitting inferiority out of his own mouth some(Itachi Fans) still think he's stronger than the Sannin  




> Both Gaara in the desert and Killer Bee are obviously on the upper end of the Kage spectrum, as they can defeat multiple weaker Kage at once.



Gaara in the dessert is weaker than 4th Kazekage who is on the weaker end of the Kage spectrum, Gaara was so powerful yet Suna received the lowest rating in military strength in the manga, shit Gaara who was much stronger and has shown better feats than he did against Deidara still fought a close battle with his father who is thought of to be the weakest of all Kages shown in the manga 

Gaara at best was maybe Elite Jounin level in the dessert , but guess what he couldn't even use the dessert to his advantage against deidara in the first place , so with that handicap he was fighting a a jounin level.


what has Killer Bee shown that indicates he's high kage level , he's around low kage tier like Gai and Kisame , those 3 are all on the same level ,

I see Gai as being a better matchup against Kisame because he doesn't really use ninjutsu 

I see Kisame being a better matchup against Bee because he has Samehada, which is perfect for hunting tailed beast \

I see Killer Bee being a better matchup against Gai because he dominates in Gai's best area Taijutsu and has more variety being able to rely on Hachibi

Killer Bee's feats aren't overly impressive to me 

He beat a weakened injured Sasuke w/o Susanoo and once Sasuke's MS came into play the battle started to lean more in Sasuke's favor 

He lost to Kisame , and sure Kisame was a bad matchup I just didn't see enough outside of Hachibi that indicates he's on a higher caliber, if your ninjutsu is so easily countered and thats all you have to rely on thats kishi telling me you aren't that strong 

His performance against Nagato was abysmal , Kakashi and Jiraiya did much better against Pain on their first go around facing the Rinnegan, he perfumed on the same level as KCM Naruto who had an excuse by having his clones dispersed throughout the battlefield so he had an excuse Killer Bee did not 

He's really done nothing the past 50 chapters and has been reduced to just a sideline player just totally out shined by Kakashi, Gaara, Onoki, Naruto, Hokages




> Several Kage would be unable to capture Gaara in the desert or Killer Bee.



Many Kage would be able to capture Bee anytime, anyplace 

where do I start 

Minato just tags him and keeps hitting him with Rasengans 

Hashirama subdues him with Mokuton

Tobirama wins it with FTG

Danzo wins with koto

Mei just melts hachibi as we saw in his fight against the edo jins he can be harmed by lava 

Jiraiya wins with frog song 

Orochimaru summons Hashirama 

Onoki destroys with jinton 

Gaara gets sand in his bloodstream and seals him 

Raikage could win with the amber sealing pot 

ect.

The only Kage that would have a hard time with Bee is Tsunade because she doesn't really have any long range techs or have the speed to defend herself , but guess what Tsunade is noted for her medical support ninjutsu thats her bread and better and in that regard she is superior to Bee 

so if you wanna say Kisame has a better chance at defeating Bee in combat then be my guess but guess what that aint proving much 


Gaara in the dessert that fought deidara , because he wouldn't be able to use the sand at his disposal 

most of the people I listed above would defeat him in a similar fashion ,

with that Gaara you could even throw 4th Kazekage , Sasori , Kisame , Kakuzu , Gai , shit I would give Rock Lee with improved gates  an outside chance to defeat Gaara in the dessert.






> Itachi fans just aren't retarded, so they don't argue that Deidara and Kisame are sub-Kage level. (And Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara while holding back.)



Itachi fans constantly ignore manga evidence and the authors own words that would tell you otherwise 



> Also, A-rank canonically means Jōnin/Kage level, so S-rank means Kage level. Akatsuki was stated to be all S-rank ninja.



No S-Rank are based upon the crimes they've committed in the Naruto World it has nothing to do with power or unless you think Hidan is as strong as Nagato seeing as how their both S-Rank criminals 



> Yes, even Hidan (Kishimoto had planned to show more of Hidan's jutsu but was unable to because of his editors or something.)



Well I guess you do lol




> You call it an insecure ploy, but it's just another instance of non-fans of Itachi being laughably wrong.



No its an insecure ploy , why cant you get one Minato fan to rank Ei, why cant you get one Naruto fan to say kakuzu is high kage tier, why cant you get any of the Sasuke fans to say Deidara is high kage level, why do only Itachi fans overrate the characters that he has shown to be stronger than , why won't Madara fans overrated the 5 Gokage , ask any fan of Madara where they would rank any of the Kage and I bet they won't overrate them, thats because their secure in their favorite characters showing , their feats stand by their own merit and don't need to be skewed to propel their favorite in a different tier , this just tells me , that Itachi fans don't feel secure in Itachi's feats because to be honest THEY AINT THAT IMPRESSIVE, but most of us give Itachi the benefit of the doubt because of various hype statements , and his role within the manga warrants respect of the forums , but I anti Itachi fans were really jackasses and our hands were forces we could make arguments for many on the kage level beating him , especially his living incarnation.




> So if you take a rest with the tiresome conspiracy theories, you can see that even neutral parties like Kai, Alex Payne, etc. know the answer is obvious.



I mean I respect their opinion just like everyone else's but what makes their opinion on the matter more credible than mines or others who think like me , I could say their are neutral parties that agree with me , some maybe that don't even post on Naruto Forums.



> , you're just really wrong in this instance



Take this write it on a piece of paper , hold it in the mirror , and read it out loud


----------



## Vice (Jan 7, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Funny though. In this thread the people that are usually wrong on a majority of what they say like Kyokan, Selim, etc I find agreeable while the people I usual agree with and know what they are talking about like Ichlieb, Vice, etc. I disagree with here.



The only thing I argued was whether he was stronger than a healthy Orochimaru, which he admitted he wasn't.

Disagree all you want, that's how it is.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Gaara and Killer Bee are both high tier Kage opponents, you can't argue that pnj matchups, in which they had very unfavorable conditions change that.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Jan 7, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> That's like Faux News calling out other channels for being biased as well.  Equivalence fallacy!
> 
> Hebi sasuke being an elite jonin is common sense.
> Hebi Sasuke being low Kage is stretching.


Only character I am really biased about is Naruto because he is my favorite. Not sure what you mean here cause he is not part of the discussion.

Well that just simply doesn't make sense. Part 1 Kakashi was Elite Jounin level. Kakashi in part 2 gained greater mastery over the sharingan since it seemed to drain less chakra from him, greater chakra seemingly since his limit was 4 raikiris a day and he used 6 against Kakuzu with some to spare, gained the method of avoiding eye contact while fighting, and of course gained the Mangekyou. Part 2 Kakashi was low kage level (Immortals Arc). Same level as Post Fuuton Base Naruto. Hebi Sasuke is stronger than these certified kage levels.



The World said:


> Hebi Sauce is high jounin/lowest of the low tier Kage


Part 1 Kakashi was high jounin. Yamato is high jounin. Hebi Sasuke is quite a bit superior to them making him easily kage level.



Vice said:


> The only thing I argued was whether he was stronger than a healthy Orochimaru, which he admitted he wasn't.
> 
> Disagree all you want, that's how it is.


Ah fair enough. Orochimaru is indeed stronger than pre-Hebi Sasuke. Misinterpreted the situation. My mistake.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> Gaara and Killer Bee are both high tier Kage opponents, you can't argue that pnj matchups, in which they had very unfavorable conditions change that.



Gaara is a high kage tier now, but not when he fought Deidara 

Killer Bee, I just don't see it based upon feats and portrayal 

  Kisame>Bee>Gai>Kisame


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## Ghost (Jan 7, 2014)

Eliyua23 said:


> Killer Bee, I just don't see it based upon feats and portrayal


Maybe because you are biased as fuck?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> A>B>C logic doesn't work in Naruto. Beating Hiruzen doesn't just grant you kage level.



Depends if that is one's measure of Kage level, personally, I think that would be flawed measuring Kage level.

If all the Shodai Gokage, or prime Sandaime Gokage were in place then guys like Sasuke, even weaker people than him such as Itachi and Kakuzu wouldn't ever be considered Kage level. 

If we go by Kage level, as a strength level we should compare Hebi Sasuke to those who would be considered above Jonin level. Not someone who happens to hold the rank of Kage, for instance old Hiruzen is obviously a bad measure. Well, a good measure if you subdivide Kage level into low/mid/high.


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## Vice (Jan 7, 2014)

Naruto is about match-ups, not power levels unless we're talking extremes like Hashirama and Madara.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Depends if that is one's measure of Kage level, personally, I think that would be flawed measuring Kage level.
> 
> If all the Shodai Gokage, or prime Sandaime Gokage were in place then guys like Sasuke, even weaker people than him such as Itachi and Kakuzu wouldn't ever be considered Kage level.
> 
> If we go by Kage level, as a strength level we should compare Hebi Sasuke to those who would be considered above Jonin level. Not someone who happens to hold the rank of Kage, for instance old Hiruzen is obviously a bad measure. Well, a good measure if you subdivide Kage level into low/mid/high.



A kages job is to protect their village. All the current kages can protect their villages. Tsunade already did against Pain (she didn't beat him, but protected the people and saved them), Oonoki could, Gaara did against Deidara, Mei could with huge suitons and mist, Ei can with pure speed. Hebi Sasuke would never be able to protect a village.


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## Ghost (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> A kages job is to protect their village. All the current kages can protect their villages. Tsunade already did against Pain (she didn't beat him, but protected the people and saved them), Oonoki could, Gaara did against Deidara, Mei could with huge suitons and mist, Ei can with pure speed. Hebi Sasuke would never be able to protect a village.



Lmao. None of the other Gokage could've done a better job against Nagato than Tsunade did.


Mei's Suiton > Chou Shinra Tensei

-IchLiebe


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Lmao. None of the other Gokage could've done a better job against Nagato than Tsunade did.
> 
> 
> Mei's Suiton > Chou Shinra Tensei
> ...



Where the fuck did I say that? I said she could protect her village. Did I say from CST? No.


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## ZE (Jan 7, 2014)

Talking about hypocrisy. 

“We shouldn’t take into consideration Deidara’s performance against the ambush team because that was Kishi’s stupidity”.

“Oh, but do you know that stuff about Hachibi tanking his own bijuu dama… that’s usable and should not be overlooked. Susanoo>Bijuu dama, Kakashi’s doton wall>Bijuu dama, Shinra Tensei>Kakashi’s wall, thus Shinra Tensei>bijuu dama, Susanoo>Bijuu dama, thus Kirin>Bijuu dama, and so on.”

That makes total sense. 
But Deidara being a low kage at best when he’s clearly inferior to mid kages like Itachi and Pain, oh no, that’s madness.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> Naruto is about match-ups, not power levels unless we're talking extremes like Hashirama and Madara.



This thread in-itself is about power levels, so to speak. ITT we're talking about if Sasuke, at a particular point in time, was deemed "Kage level".



IchLiebe said:


> A kages job is to protect their village. All the current kages can protect their villages. Tsunade already did against Pain (she didn't beat him, but protected the people and saved them), Oonoki could, Gaara did against Deidara, Mei could with huge suitons and mist, Ei can with pure speed. Hebi Sasuke would never be able to protect a village.



That's evaluating them as a Kage. In which case, not even Sage Naruto or KCM Naruto should be considered Kage. Seeing as BM Naruto onwards is the one capable of protecting others _whilst_ fighting a foe.

ITT we're talking about whether or not Sasuke could fight on the level that "Kage level" shinobi should be able to fight at. Not necessarily how he'd do in any of the Gokage's shoes.

By a technicality, Sasuke could be Kage level. Then again, if we go by the fact he could do okay against one of the five Kage, then it suggests to us that the standard of Kage level did diminish since the era of the Shodai Gokage passed.


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## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> This thread in-itself is about power levels, so to speak. ITT we're talking about if Sasuke, at a particular point in time, was deemed "Kage level".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sage Naruto transcends Kage obviously, and he did defend his village already!


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> Sage Naruto transcends Kage obviously, and he did defend his village already!



Could he do it in Gaara's situation?


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 7, 2014)

I do think Sasuke and Naruto reached a level where they could protect the village when they acquired , SM and MS, the only problem is they were handicapped by limitations that caused them not to be able to sustain that level, Naruto with not being able to fuse with Ma and Pa, and Sasuke going blind from using the MS, but when they were able to use their powers they showed they could fight at a Kage level, ''

While Naruto has had Sage Mode activated in battle he has 

Defeated Pain, Defeated Kurama, Defeated Sandaime Raikage , 

While Sasuke has achieved MS in battle he has 

defeated Danzo, fought evenly with Ei, fought evenly with Gaara,


The only problem was they both had limitations placed on them where they couldn't sustain said power 


Hebi Sasuke FRS Naruto would have no way to protect the village , Sasuke was taken to school by Itachi and Jiraiya told  Tsunade that Naruto after defeating Kakuzu was far away from even being considered for Hokage


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## Mercurial (Jan 7, 2014)

Kage level doesn't even exist to begin with. It can't be called a power ranking, when are kage the likes of Hashirama, Minato and Tobirama... and also of Tsunade or Mei. You can talk about S-ranked ninjas, who are people like the people who hold the title of kage, exceptionally strong nukenin like the Akatsuki members or exceptionally strong jonin like Kakashi and Gai, or people like the jinchuriki etc.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kage level doesn't even exist to begin with. It can't be called a power ranking, when are kage the likes of Hashirama, Minato and Tobirama... and also of Tsunade or Mei. You can talk about S-ranked ninjas, who are people like the people who hold the title of kage, exceptionally strong nukenin like the Akatsuki members or exceptionally strong jonin like Kakashi and Gai, or people like the jinchuriki etc.



Sure it exists, but there is a level above that too.  
Those people belong to a level above Kage.  They are sages, perfect jin, and people directly connected to the sage of 6 paths.


All you have to do is ask yourself if Hebi Sasuke can beat Kage level opponents.
The answer is maybe, which makes him elite jonin, borderline low Kage.


Bee wiped the floor with him, several times.
The Raikage would have floored him if not for his newly acquired MS (Not Hebi).
Could he beat Gaara?  Not a chance.
Could he beat Onoki?  Not likely.
Could he beat Tsunade?  Maybe
Could he beat Mei?  Maybe

That is clearly elite jonin, borderline entry to Kage.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That's evaluating them as a Kage. In which case, not even Sage Naruto or KCM Naruto should be considered Kage. Seeing as BM Naruto onwards is the one capable of protecting others _whilst_ fighting a foe.



Kages are strong enough to protect the village. That's what Kages do. If you can't do that then obviously you're not kage level. SM Naruto protected the village by beating Pain and then went even further to the point where Nagato revived the dead. If he was there with SM from the beginning, Konoha would not have been destroyed.



> ITT we're talking about whether or not Sasuke could fight on the level that "Kage level" shinobi should be able to fight at. Not necessarily how he'd do in any of the Gokage's shoes.
> 
> By a technicality, Sasuke could be Kage level. Then again, if we go by the fact he could do okay against one of the five Kage, then it suggests to us that the standard of Kage level did diminish since the era of the Shodai Gokage passed.



Fighting on that level doesn't make you that level though. One example is Sasuke in chunnin exams. They straight told him he was a chunnin level and Naruto wasn't, yet Naruto was stronger.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Could he do it in Gaara's situation?



SM Naruto could. He would wreck Deidara.


----------



## Vice (Jan 7, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Could he do it in Gaara's situation?



Maybe I'm not understanding the question because Sage Mode Naruto would wipe his ass with Deidara.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

ZE said:


> But Deidara being a low kage at best when he’s clearly inferior to *mid kages like Itachi and Pain*, oh no, that’s madness.




Itachi and Pain are high Kage (like Mū and Minato,) as they're stronger than most of Kage. (Mid Kage would only be stronger than about 50% of Kage)


----------



## Vice (Jan 7, 2014)

Yeah, Pain isn't mid-kage tier.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

Come on, Vice. Itachi too haha. I remember your tier list.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Itachi high kage? LOLOLOLOLOLOL He got beat by jounnin Sasuke.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi high kage? LOLOLOLOLOLOL He got beat by jounnin Sasuke.




Sure, whatever, but he still beat Orochimaru while in extraordinarily bad shape.

Does that make Orochimaru chūnin level?


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Sure, whatever, but he still beat Orochimaru while in extraordinarily bad shape.
> 
> Does that make Orochimaru chūnin level?



Still using A>B>C logic. That don't work in Naruto.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi and Pain are high Kage (like Mū and Minato,) as they're stronger than most of Kage. (Mid Kage would only be stronger than about 50% of Kage)



Pain is above above the Kage tier.
Itachi is low Kage bro, sorry!


----------



## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Still using A>B>C logic. That don't work in Naruto.




I'm asking which Jōnin level ninja can beat the legendary Sannin Orochimaru's ultimate technique while blind and coughing up blood.

Kurenai, maybe?


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## The World (Jan 7, 2014)

ZE said:


> Talking about hypocrisy.
> 
> ?We shouldn?t take into consideration Deidara?s performance against the ambush team because that was Kishi?s stupidity?.
> 
> ...



Itachi and Pain mid kages? Are you out of your mind?

Deidara is a mid kage


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> I'm asking which Jōnin level ninja can beat the legendary Sannin Orochimaru's ultimate technique while blind and coughing up blood.
> 
> Kurenai, maybe?



Who did I say was Jounin level? Again using A>B>C logic. Just because I said Jounin Sasuke beat Itachi doesn't mean I think Itachi is jounin level.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Who did I say was Jounin level? Again using A>B>C logic. Just because I said Jounin Sasuke beat Itachi doesn't mean I think Itachi is jounin level.



Itachi was hokage material when he was 13. 

Owned the "Hokage Candidate" Orochimaru in 2 panels @13, had the wisdom of a hokage @ 7, was/is a better ninja than Hashirama.

So anyone who thinks Itachi isn't kage level should be penetrated by black rods for 72 hours inside Tsukiyomi(black rods being Sandaime Raikage's dick).


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi was hokage material when he was 13.
> 
> Owned the "Hokage Candidate" Orochimaru in 2 panels @13, had the wisdom of a hokage @ 7, was/is a better ninja than Hashirama.
> 
> So anyone who thinks Itachi isn't kage level should be penetrated by black rods for 72 hours inside Tsukiyomi(black rods being Sandaime Raikage's dick).



You never disappoint. 

Itachi thought like a kage when he was 13, not kage material. 

A>B>C logic does not work in this manga. Being a better ninja means shit, Zabuza's the greatest ninja in the manga and he's not kage level.

Itachi is kage level at the time of his death, just low kage.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> You never disappoint.
> 
> Itachi thought like a kage when he was 13, not kage material.
> 
> ...



He thought like a kage when he was 7 not 13.

And you need the thought process and wisdom of a Kage to be able to become one. That is one of the virtues you need, that is t he reason why Naruto was never considered for the job so far.

Where is the A B C logic in this ? Itachi basically raped someone who was a Hokage Candidate. Hiruzen thought Orochimaru was competent enough to become a Kage. 

Show me an instance where a weak character defeats a stronger one with absolute ease and I'll believe you.

Itachi @ the time of his deaht was still stronger than most kage we've seen so far(including the edo ones) so unless you think most kage are low level kages then you are just wrong. 


People have raised the Kage bar up too high after seeing guys like Hashirama or Madara but they are just anomalies. Outside the norm.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Jan 7, 2014)

ZE said:


> But Deidara being a low kage at best when he?s clearly inferior to mid kages like Itachi and Pain, oh no, that?s madness.


What kind of tier list do you have? In general mine is (order is irrelevant)

God level:
Hashirama
Madara
Full powered Naruto
Full powered Sasuke

Legendary:
Minato
Pain
KCM Naruto
EMS Sasuke pre-PS

High Kage level:
Muu
Oonoki
SM Naruto
MS Sasuke
Itachi
Tobirama
Pre-Rinnengan Obito

Mid-High Kage level:
HM Jiraiya 
Orochimaru
Kisame
Sick Itachi
A
Sandaime Raikage
Sasori

Mid Kage level:
Deidara
Tsunade
Hebi Sasuke
Current Kakashi
Maito Gai
Current Base Naruto
Gaara


Low-Mid Kage level:
Base Jiraiya
Base Sasuke
Kakuzu

Low Kage level:
Post Fuuton Base Naruto
Immortals Arc Kakashi
Base Itachi
Konan
Mei
Mifune
Gaara's father

Elite Jounin-Low Kage:
Hidan
Darui


Elite Jounin:
Part 1 Kakashi
Pre-Oro Absorption Kabuto
Asuma
Kankurou
Zabuza
Yamato
Sai

Wow that was really fun.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He thought like a kage when he was 7 not 13.



So he got dumber? I figured as much .



> And you need the thought process and wisdom of a Kage to be able to become one. That is one of the virtues you need, that is t he reason why Naruto was never considered for the job so far.



Thought process and strength. Prove to me Itachi had amaterasu and susanoo when he was 13. Please use feats. Not he had MS so he had it. Sasuke had MS and didn't automatically have susanoo.



> Where is the A B C logic in this ? Itachi basically raped someone who was a Hokage Candidate. Hiruzen thought Orochimaru was competent enough to become a Kage.



Itachi beat Orochimaru so he must be as strong as Orochimaru. That's using A>B>C logic. This isn't a powerlevel manga, it's a manga with varying abilities and Itachi had Orochimaru's kyptonite. One example used earlier was Batman beat Superman in a fight using kyptonite yet Batman's no where near as strong as Superman. Hiruzen WANTED Orochimaru to be hokage but knew he wasn't hokage material and picked Minato.



> Show me an instance where a weak character defeats a stronger one with absolute ease and I'll believe you.



Kabuto vs Tsunade. Kabuto won using Tsunade's weakness yet was not as strong as her.



> Itachi @ the time of his deaht was still stronger than most kage we've seen so far(including the edo ones) so unless you think most kage are low level kages then you are just wrong.



No.



> People have raised the Kage bar up too high after seeing guys like Hashirama or Madara but they are just anomalies. Outside the norm.



I haven't raised the bar.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke is mid Kage because he slaughtered a Susanoo-less Itachi, who is mid Kage. Susanoo, Itachi would around SM Jiraiya's level; probably just edging the lowest bracket of the high Kage tier. 

Unsure about putting Pain Rikudou in _any_ tiers seeing as Pain Rikudou is a jutsu. It would make more sense to tier the users (Nagato & Obito), rather than the jutsu.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2014)

Bar Ei and Oonoki, Hebi Sasuke is comfortably superior to any of the current Gokage. 

I'd say he can defeat Akatsuki members like Kakuzu and Sasori, too.


----------



## Vice (Jan 7, 2014)

If he hadn't fought Itachi he wouldn't be nearly this wanked.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Bar Ei and Oonoki, Hebi Sasuke is comfortably superior to any of the current Gokage.
> 
> I'd say he can defeat Akatsuki members like Kakuzu and Sasori, too.



LOL Gaara fucking tortures Hebi Sasuke.

EDIT: I'm surpised this thread got 300 replies. Been a while since a threads been this active.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> LOL Gaara fucking tortures Hebi Sasuke.
> 
> EDIT: I'm surpised this thread got 300 replies. Been a while since a threads been this active.



Sasuke merely dances around Gaara's sand, killing him with Kirin for shits and giggles. 

Gaara only stands a chance in the desert.


----------



## ZE (Jan 7, 2014)

Pain and Itachi can?t be higher than mid kages because the strength difference that separates them and the other mid kages such as Onoki, Ei or the third Raikage isn?t larger than the gap that exists between Hashirama/or anyone on the high kage tier and Pain and Itachi. 

While Pain and Itachi are stronger than all of the contenders in the mid kage tier, they fit there better than being on the same tier as Hashirama, Madara, BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito, Kabuto with edos. 

To makes things clear:

High kage tier: Hashirama, Madara, Obito, Naruto, Minato, Kabuto, possibly Sasuke

Mid kage: Itachi, Pain, Kakashi, Onoki (Madara considered him a threat), Muu, third Raikage, Ei, SM Naruto, base Minato, healthy Oro, SM Jiraiya, possibly Kisame, Killerbee, puppet Sasori with the third kazekage puppet,

Low kage: Deidara, Kakuzu, human Sasori, Mei, second Mizukage, Gai, Gaara, Tsunade


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## Mithos (Jan 7, 2014)

I guess Hebi Sasuke could be classified as "Kage level" -- but he's not beating any of the current Gokage.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 7, 2014)

The manga made it clear that even 3 tailed naruto would decisively lose to pre-hebi sasuke.  Deidara defeated gaara who's quite above the kage-level cut off, yet Sasuke defeated Deidara, survived his suicide, and had a trick up his sleeve, defeated orochimaru, and forced itachi to use the MS.

If the requirement to be kage level is simply to give the weakest kage-level shinobi an very high diff fight, I'm pretty sure that puts sasuke at kage level.


----------



## Krippy (Jan 7, 2014)

ZE said:


> Pain and Itachi can?t be higher than mid kages because the strength difference that separates them and the other mid kages such as Onoki, Ei or the third Raikage isn?t larger than the gap that exists between Hashirama/or anyone on the high kage tier and Pain and Itachi.
> 
> While Pain and Itachi are stronger than all of the contenders in the mid kage tier, they fit there better than being on the same tier as Hashirama, Madara, BM Minato, BM Naruto, Rinnegan Obito, Kabuto with edos.
> 
> ...



Why are you grouping everybody into 3 tiers? Hashirama and Madara shitstomp anybody else on the "high kage" tier, and lol @ Kakashi being a whole tier above Gai.

There is _at least_ 6 or 7 tiers in which to divide the verse.


----------



## Shariwin (Jan 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> The manga made it clear that even 3 tailed naruto would decisively lose to pre-hebi sasuke.  Deidara defeated gaara who's quite above the kage-level cut off, yet Sasuke defeated Deidara, survived his suicide, and had a trick up his sleeve, defeated orochimaru, and forced itachi to use the MS.
> 
> If the requirement to be kage level is simply to give the weakest kage-level shinobi an very high diff fight, I'm pretty sure that puts sasuke at kage level.



What?  No it didn't....  Context!  Orochimaru was just trying to piss Naruto off!


Both Kage level opponents he fought, he had a huge handicap though.
He would be entry kage at best, which is really still elite jounin.



Matto-sama said:


> I guess Hebi Sasuke could be classified as "Kage level" -- but he's not beating any of the current Gokage.



Exactly, which means he isn't a real Kage.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 7, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> What?  No it didn't....  Context!  Orochimaru was just trying to piss Naruto off!



Sasuke _did_ show the ability to suppress Kurama though. An ability that seemed to work because Naruto couldn't tame Kurama's power; something that stopped being the case during the training with Killer B.


----------



## Baroxio (Jan 7, 2014)

Matto-sama said:


> I guess Hebi Sasuke could be classified as "Kage level" -- but he's not beating any of the current Gokage.



hebi Sasuke has a decent chance against every one of the current Kage with the sole exception of Onoki when starting fresh in a 1-v-1.

Vs Raikage, Sasuke was already capable of reacting to and dodging V1 Raikage, and his Chidori penetrated Raikage's Raiton no Yoroi. With a Partial Senjutsu boost from the Curse Seal, not only will Sasuke's reactions and speed increase (aiding his ability to react to V2 Raikage if it comes up), but his Chidori can be upgraded to the more powerful Black Chidori he used against Naruto, which should logically penetrate all the way through the Raikage's heart.

Vs Tsunade, Sauske is faster than her, has better reactions with Sharingan, has a massive range advantage with 15+ meter CS2 Chidori Eiso, and can even counter her slug summoning with snake summons. He pretty much hard counters her. 

Vs non-Dessert Gaara, basically the same thing happens that happened in the Chunin Exams, where Sasuke's Raiton offenses trump Gaara's sand defenses, except now he can do it from 15 meters away, and has his own limited flight capabilities with CS2 wings to keep up with Gaara in the air.  Considering his CS2 jump + Eiso combo caught Deidara, the man who was able to dodge all of Dessert Gaara's ridiculous attacks, unaware, it should similarily catch Gaara as well. Worst comes to worst and Sasuke can use Manda or Kirin to smash through anything Gaara has.

Vs Mei, her suitons counter his Katons and outranges his Raitons, plus her mist makes things difficult if she's able to cast it without being blitzed, but again, Kirin and large snake summons like Manda completely wreck her. On another note, snakes can detect their opponent without sight, negating the advantage of regular mist.

Even Onoki would be hard pressed to avoid Sasuke if they start off close enough, since Onoki should have equivalent speed to Deidara, who was pressured by Base Sasuke's speed. But obviously if Onoki flies out of range then Sasuke gets nuked by Jinton.

...So yeah, it's not like Sasuke isn't Kage level.

Hell, _*Konohamaru *_with Manda and Kirin alone would be freaking Kage level!


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Vs non-Dessert Gaara, basically the same thing happens that happened in the Chunin Exams, where Sasuke's Raiton offenses trump Gaara's sand defenses, except now he can do it from 15 meters away, and has his own limited flight capabilities with CS2 wings to keep up with Gaara in the air.  Considering his CS2 jump + Eiso combo caught Deidara, the man who was able to dodge all of Dessert Gaara's ridiculous attacks, unaware, it should similarily catch Gaara as well. Worst comes to worst and Sasuke can use Manda or Kirin to smash through anything Gaara has.



It's 5m. He's not getting through Gaara's sand defenses. Gaara is a beast. He grinds some sand and it's done. Literally nothing he can do is getting to Gaara once sand gets grinded and Gaara can live that long. Sasuke also caught the huge ass dragon which is slower than the clay bird against Gaara. Kirin won't get set up.



> Vs Mei, her suitons counter his Katons and outranges his Raitons, plus her mist makes things difficult if she's able to cast it without being blitzed, but again, Kirin and large snake summons like Manda completely wreck her. On another note, snakes can detect their opponent without sight, negating the advantage of regular mist.



Kirin's not getting set up. Lava style kills manda.



> Even Onoki would be hard pressed to avoid Sasuke if they start off close enough, since Onoki should have equivalent speed to Deidara, who was pressured by Base Sasuke's speed. But obviously if Onoki flies out of range then Sasuke gets nuked by Jinton.



Oonoki rapes Sasuke.



> ...So yeah, it's not like Sasuke isn't Kage level.
> 
> Hell, _*Konohamaru *_with Manda and Kirin alone would be freaking Kage level!



No he wouldn't. Are you going to tell me Naruto in part 1 is jounin level because he had Gamabunta and rasengan? And that's a whole different thing. Sasuke has to set up Kirin and it took a forest fire of amaterasu to happen. Manda doesn't even listen to Sasuke and he has to genjutsu him, if someone breaks that genjutsu GG.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> So he got dumber? I figured as much .



Still smarter than your fave 



> Thought process and strength. Prove to me Itachi had amaterasu and susanoo when he was 13. Please use feats. Not he had MS so he had it. Sasuke had MS and didn't automatically have susanoo.


Why would Itachi need Susano'o to be kage level ? 
He raped Oro without it.
Itachi's stats alone(which are higher than Kakashi's) would put him on that level.

And as for the information requested, enjoy : * this susanoo*





> Itachi beat Orochimaru so he must be as strong as Orochimaru. That's using A>B>C logic. This isn't a powerlevel manga, it's a manga with varying abilities and Itachi had Orochimaru's kyptonite. One example used earlier was Batman beat Superman in a fight using kyptonite yet Batman's no where near as strong as Superman. Hiruzen WANTED Orochimaru to be hokage but knew he wasn't hokage material and picked Minato.


Shittiest analogy ever. 

Did Itachi have an ability that made Orochimaru weaker ? An ability that works only on Orochimaru ? 




> Kabuto vs Tsunade. Kabuto won using Tsunade's weakness yet was not as strong as her.


What weakness ? 

Before he resorted to blood phobia(which Itachi doesn't have such advantage over Orochimaru), Kabuto put her down fair and square. Then he got cocky, underestimated her and Tsunade took that advantage.
So the gap between rusted Tsunade and Kabuto wasn't that big in the first place, considering he was able to put her down and was praised by Tsunade for it.





> No.


Yes.




> I haven't raised the bar.


Then who do you compare sick Itachi to to deduce he is low kage ?




ZE said:


> Pain and Itachi can’t be higher than mid kages because the strength difference that separates them and the other mid kages such as Onoki, Ei or the third Raikage isn’t larger than the gap that exists between Hashirama/or anyone on the high kage tier and Pain and Itachi.



Wow.

The gap between Hashirama/Madara and any other kage is massive.
If those 2 are "high kage" then no one else is.

These guys are obviously outside the norm and require a classification of their own.



Baroxio said:


> Hell, _*Konohamaru *_with Manda and Kirin alone would be freaking Kage level!



If he was capable of using them, yes.
But then, the capability of using them would make him kage level, not the jutsus themselves.

If Konohomaru was magically granted massive chakra and he magically became proficient enough t o summon manda(remember how hard Naruto trained for it), right after he summoned manda, manda would eat him.

Thats what people are overlooking.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Still smarter than your fave



Kakashi was chunnin at age 6. That retard Itachi couldn't do it till he was 8. We all know who's the kage material of those two, and it ain't bitch Itachi.



> Why would Itachi need Susano'o to be kage level ?
> He raped Oro without it.
> Itachi's stats alone(which are higher than Kakashi's) would put him on that level.
> 
> And as for the information requested, enjoy : instant



Because without susanoo he isn't kage level. Especially without amaterasu too. And stats mean shit. They're not something to base an whole argument on.

He said that it awoke in his eyes on that day. That's true. Once you get MS you get the ability to use susanoo, however he didn't automatically use it. Sasuke had to go through quite a bit to get his and that's with knowledge of it.



> Shittiest analogy ever.
> 
> Did Itachi have an ability that made Orochimaru weaker ? An ability that works only on Orochimaru ?



He had his weakness, genjutsu. 



> What weakness ?
> 
> Before he resorted to blood phobia(which Itachi doesn't have such advantage over Orochimaru), Kabuto put her down fair and square. Then he got cocky, underestimated her and Tsunade took that advantage.
> So the gap between rusted Tsunade and Kabuto wasn't that big in the first place, considering he was able to put her down and was praised by Tsunade for it.



He ran till she was tired, took a soldier pill and started winning. She turned the tables and he went for the blood phobia.




> Yes.



No.



> Then who do you compare sick Itachi to to deduce he is low kage ?



It's one shot jutsu's. But they only take you so far. Kage's have shown that they would deal with Itachi. Amaterasu is beaten by most kages. Tsukiyomi is good but again, only so far. Almost all kages can combat susanoo.


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## Trojan (Jan 7, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke was at Kakashi' level at that time (Not current kakashi), more or less.


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2014)

Elia said:


> Hebi Sasuke was at Kakashi' level at that time (Not current kakashi), more or less.


Eh, Hebi Sasuke was stronger then Immortals Arc Kakashi. Hebi Sasuke would defeat Wind Arc Naruto who Kakashi admitted to being weaker to.

Disregarding character statements. Their speed in base is similar, Kakashi never actually semi-blitzed someone of Deidara's caliber (4.5 in speed) so there's a strong argument for Sasuke being faster. Then add on CS1 and Sasuke is easily the faster and stronger (CS boosts strength) opponent. Kakashi didn't have Raiton clone or Chain back then so in terms of Raiton they were pretty similar. MS is useless here as his Kamui aim is still awful. Genjutsu is a non-factor for either. So it comes down to CQC and other jutsu. Sasuke can abuse Aoda and Manda to weaken Kakashi. In CQC with CS2 he has the edge and in terms of stamina Kakashi is a non-Uchiha and will drain out quickly if he's abusing Raiton on the snakes and Sharingan to keep Sasuke back.

Jiraiya considered Sasuke a serious threat when Sasuke had yet to absorb Orochimaru, that speaks volumes of Hebi Sasuke's power.


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## IchLiebe (Jan 7, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Eh, Hebi Sasuke was stronger then Immortals Arc Kakashi. Hebi Sasuke would defeat Wind Arc Naruto who Kakashi admitted to being weaker to.



In a way of speaking. Jiraiya later stated Kakashi would be a good Hokage while Naruto wasn't an option.


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## Ersa (Jan 7, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> In a way of speaking. Jiraiya later stated Kakashi would be a good Hokage while Naruto wasn't an option.


True, but I'm talking a combination of feats and portrayal suggests to me Hebi Sasuke is stronger then Immortals Arc Kakashi. Current Kakashi is comfortably superior however.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

Vice said:


> If he hadn't fought Itachi he wouldn't be nearly this wanked.




Is saying he's Kage level wanking him to you?


----------



## Veracity (Jan 7, 2014)

@baroxio 

Just no. Not even close lol. Ay would absolutely murder stomp Hebi Sasuke little to no difficulty. MS Sasuke has MS. That enhances his pre-cog. Hebi Sasuke should be able to react to V1 by barely and it will be a pain in the ass, and even that version of Ay will best him. 

You saying his Curse seal allows him to react to freaking V2 AY is behind my comprehension. V2 AY would blitz Sasuke at any distance his shunshin can extend to period. He would absolutely mop the floor with him 0 difficulty. Hebi Sasuke was pressured by a near death Itachi who was comfortably below the speed of V1 Ay. The speed difference between V1 Ay and V2 Ay is ridiculously large.'


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## Sadgoob (Jan 7, 2014)

MS was never stated or shown to enhance precog.

Hebi Sasuke fought much more intelligently than early MS Sasuke, which may make all the difference against A.


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## Veracity (Jan 7, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> MS was never stated or shown to enhance precog.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke fought much more intelligently than early MS Sasuke, which may make all the difference against A.



I'm not going to start this with you. Sharingan has been shown to increase pre cog through each level. 

Sharingan ---> MS ---> EMS.

Sharingan Sasuke could track around the level of Sick Itachi and Deidara.

MS Sasuke could track speedsters like V1 Bee and V1 Ay. 

EMS Sasuke when close to the development of his PS( mastered) could react to Juubito.

There probably is a pattern just saying.
And Hebi Sasuke fighting smarter does nothing when he can't react. It's like Shikamaru vs Minato. Also Hebi Sasuke has shown to fight smarter then Novice MS Sasuke( vs Bee) not MS Sasuke against Ay.


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## Ersa (Jan 8, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not going to start this with you. Sharingan has been shown to increase pre cog through each level.
> 
> Sharingan ---> MS ---> EMS.
> 
> ...


This is wrong I'm sorry.

Sasuke tracked V1 Ei with 3 tomoe, same for V1 B. EMS Sasuke was outperformed by Edo Itachi (latter reacted earlier to Muki Tensei). MS doesn't increase precognition, nothing in the manga suggests this nor was any difference ever shown between the two.

Sasuke couldn't track V2 Ei with 3 tomoe nor MS. Never has their been an instance where 3 tomoe couldn't track something and MS could. Itachi opted for 3 tomoe against KCM Naruto despite knowing the latter's large increase in power. EMS is no different, Sasuke tracking Juubito is simply chalked down to his base reflexes increasing and greater mastery over his new eyes. 

VOTE Sasuke noted CS1 was comparable the 3 tomoe Sharingan boost so it's definitely within the realm of possibility CS1 Hebi Sasuke had better reactions than Taka.

EMS Sasuke (Juubito) > EMS Sasuke (Kabuto) >> CS1 Hebi Sasuke > Taka Sasuke > Hebi Sasuke.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi was chunnin at age 6. That retard Itachi couldn't do it till he was 8. We all know who's the kage material of those two, and it ain't bitch Itachi.


Thats cute, so Kakashi had chuunin wisdom @ 6.
Itachi had kage wisdom @ 7. 

Its not hard to guess who wins in that department 

Itachi > your fave. Accept it.



> Because without susanoo he isn't kage level. Especially without amaterasu too. And stats mean shit. They're not something to base an whole argument on.


Of course, stats don't determine alone the level of an individual.
But they are a good indicator of their skill level.
Itachi having the higest number of 5's in DB, is a very good indicator that he was exceptional among other shinobi.

And Itachi is kage level without Susano'o, even Amaterasu, as he sent Orochimaru(a kage level individual) running tail between legs.




> He said that it awoke in his eyes on that day. That's true. Once you get MS you get the ability to use susanoo, however he didn't automatically use it. Sasuke had to go through quite a bit to get his and that's with knowledge of it.


Now you've started speculating without any basis to your claims, as there is no way for us to know when Itachi mastered his Susano'o or started using his Susano'o.

But Sasuke in a short amount of time(a couple of weeks) came to the point that he was able to use all of his MS techniques effectively.

So It is only fair to assume that within a month or so, Itachi was fully capable with his MS.




> He had his weakness, genjutsu.



Genjutsu isn't a specific weakness to Orochimaru.
Unless you are a dojutsu user or a perfect jin, you are susceptible to genjutsu. And even in those cases, there are ways to get around those resistances.

Itachi has managed to cast genjutsu on everyone he fought so far, including dojutsu users(kakashi, Sasuke), people who know how to avoid eye contact(Naruto, Kakashi) even the ones who are fully immune to it(Kabuto).

Just because Itachi is an excellent genjutsu user doesn't mean he has an unfair advantage against Orochimaru. He has that advantage over everyone, except a few exceptional individuals.




> He ran till she was tired, took a soldier pill and started winning. She turned the tables and he went for the blood phobia.



Doesn't change the fact that Kabuto was able to go toe to toe with her before he resorted to blood phobia.
And blood phobia is not Kabuto's ability nor it is something he can use on other people.

It has nothing to do with Itachi raping Orochimaru with genjutsu.



> No.


I forgot what this was about but.. Yes.



> It's one shot jutsu's. But they only take you so far. Kage's have shown that they would deal with Itachi. Amaterasu is beaten by most kages. Tsukiyomi is good but again, only so far. Almost all kages can combat susanoo.



There are some Kage's that can deal with some MS techniques. But Itachi has the capability to deal with them as well. 

And I can't think of a single individual who is a mid or a low kage who can deal with all of Itachi's MS techniques at once, nor an individual who can kill Itachi before Itachi can use any of his tecniques.

Itachi has the wisdom of a Kage. He is exceptionally intelligent and talented and has a very high tier hax arsenal. Not many kage can boast about such qualities.


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## Shariwin (Jan 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats cute, so Kakashi had chuunin wisdom @ 6.
> Itachi had kage wisdom @ 7.
> 
> Its not hard to guess who wins in that department
> ...



When did this forum devolve into a dick sucking contest?
Itachi, slurp slurp slurp....  Ohh yah.  He is the best!
Therefore, Sasuke is good too, slurp slurp slurp.  Ohh yah.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2014)

Shariwin said:


> When did this forum devolve into a dick sucking contest?
> Itachi, slurp slurp slurp....  Ohh yah.  He is the best!
> Therefore, Sasuke is good too, slurp slurp slurp.  Ohh yah.



You proved that no one can compete with you in that area, I give you that


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke is most certainly a Kage level fighter. He beat deidara. But he's not more than mid kage. Probably lower tier of the mid kage, and around but probably below kakuzu


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## Empathy (Feb 13, 2016)

Why's he below Kakuzu?


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

I said probably so I'm open to putting him above. But in terms of battle experience and overall prowess I'd say Kakuzu has the edge. Sasuke has some good feats but I just can't see him competing with Kakuzu. His 5 hearts make him a pain in the ass to kill. Sasuke can get his Raiton countered, and he also has to deal with incredible AOE Attacks from Kakuzu.


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

He beat Diedra with a perfect elemental advantage and some serious PIS.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 13, 2016)

Is there any actual Kage in your low kage level tier?


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 13, 2016)

<snip> Lol at people actually trying to debate about whether or not early PT2 Gaara or Deidara are Kage-level. Gaara was the Kazekage, he was powerful enough to contend with Deidara and prove to be more difficult than Deidara thought, he was manipulating freaking living tsunamis of sand in the air while simultaneously protecting himself with a gigantic dome and he was able to protect his entire village from Deidara's C3. Yet he's not Kage-level. 

: 

Deidara, while at even more of disadvantage beat Gaara, defeated Isobu with C3, nearly destroyed Sunagakure with C3, would have killed Sasuke (who at the time was an Elite Jonin-level) had it not been for Sasuke conveniently being a perfect counter to him, even after being reincarnated Deidara was dropping bombs so powerful that they flipped over an island-sized turtle,trained his eyes to resist Sharingan genjutsu, has a bomb that incinerates the opponent on a cellular level through inhaling, and has a bomb so powerful that it's explosion covers 10 kilometers and towers over entire cities, forests, and mountains. Yet somehow he is not Kage-level because "he's too stupid". 



Sometimes I really wonder man.... Anyway, Sasuke was Elite Jonin-level. He beat Orochimaru because he was severely weakened and his arms were still sealed, and yet he still was pushed to his limit and Orochimaru was focused on possessing him instead of just flat-out killing him. Against Deidara, he had perfect counters and had to resort to Manda at the end to survive getting nuked. Itachi could have easily killed him if he so desired at the very beginning of the battle if he wanted too but as stated Itachi was sickly and planned most of the fight. Not to mention Sasuke was incapable of defeating any of the Gokage at that point by himself without assistance, and none of them (except A) were able to go all-out either due to the confines of the building and the circumstances. Hebi and Taka Sasuke are way too overrated. P.S: Anyone who is a Kage or member of the Akatsuki is S-rank which is Kage-level. It doesn't matter why or how, they're Kage-level in some area which is why they have the recognition and the status that they do.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 13, 2016)

The databook stayted that Hebi Sasuke is even stronger than Akatsuki member , basically he is above the likes of Deidara , Kakuzu . He is fast , high level acccuracy and Sharingan precog , two  affinities , Kawrimi , High level genjutsu and CS1/2 to enhance all his stats .


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## LostSelf (Feb 13, 2016)

I never thought it was under Shen-Long's capabilities to revive a two year old thread.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke can beat Tsunade comfortably. He is Kage-level by a solid margin.

And *L O L* at the notion of Kakuzu beating him. Sasuke summons Manda, who proceeds to rip apart all of Kakuzu's hearts under Sasuke's genjutsu influence. The Uchiha then rushes Kakuzu and as Doton: Domu activates, Sasuke tears through him with a Chidori.


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## Itachі (Feb 13, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke is Kage level. He's fast, he's reflexive, Genjutsu, Katon, Raiton variants, CS enhanced Ninjutsu, CS enhanced speed + durability, Shurikenjutsu, etc. Hebi Sasuke has a solid arsenal and he's smart too.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 13, 2016)

J★J♥ said:


> What do you consider Hebi Sasuke ? The one with orochimaru inside him or post TS Sasuke who fought Yamato ?
> Anyway neither of them is Kage level. And before you bring up Deidara that fight was confirmed bullshit when Blast Element was revealed



This. 

Kishi made it Bakuton so that earth could play a part and Earth is weaker than Lightning.  Before that it was just Iwagakure Kinjutsu like how Kakuzu uses Takigakure Kinjutsu and Orochimaru has a few Konoha ones.

Like I say in Orochimaru vs Itachi and pretty much any Uchiha debate. The plot was always bent to their favour.  Situations always worked out for them.  Remember Madara's tanking feats and Sasukes Great Snake Escape? Or Orochimaru forgetting he could control bearers of his CS? Or Sasuke reflecting Fushi Tensei even though it isn't a Genjutsu? Or Eyeless Susano'o usage?

It's just silly and was one of the few things that ruined this manga.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 13, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Hebi Sasuke can beat Tsunade comfortably. He is Kage-level by a solid margin.



No he cannot.

- He can't do jack to Katsuyu
- Byakugou tanks Kirn
- Hebi Sasuke admitted inferocity to Oro (healthy) and you know he isn't beating JMan 

but keep up the misogyny anyway Ragga Muffin


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## Itachі (Feb 13, 2016)

^ Kirin busted a mountain...


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2016)

Depends how were using the term "Kage-level". If were simply asking can Hebi-Sasuke beat a Kage or two, than yeah he has okay chances of beating the weaker Kages given the right conditions like SPII-Gaara, Rasa, & maybe Mei. However he'd still loose to most of the known Kages though.

However imo to be Kage level requires someone to have the skills to protect a village. Sasuke's is not strong enough to protect a Hidden Village. Now you might say how can he beat certain Kages, but not be strong enough to protect a village. But the thing is if you look at those weaker Kages they are environmental fighters, and Sasuke is probably not beating them on their home turf. For example Gaara in the desert has the topographic advantage of the desert to enhance his powers and given Rasa's display in the desert it seems like the desert topography is good for drawing out Gold Dust as well (which kinda off makes sense environmentally speaking) given his massive Gold Dust Tsunami. Mei hails from Hidden Mist, which while we haven't seen alot of it's topography we can pretty safely assume has massive water sources for Mei to draw from an enhance her Suitons and utilize them more freely, as well as the fact that there is likely a-lot of Mist that fills battlefields and heavily advantages Mei in that she is skilled in fighting within the mist and can easily mix in her own demonic and acidic mists to cover the battlefield. So Hebi-Sasuke probably is not beat Mei, Rasa, or SPII-Gaara on their home turf.

So personally I do not think he is Kage-level, at least based on the Kages we've seen, however I do think he can beat some Kages under various circumstance (though not on their home turf).


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## Rocky (Feb 13, 2016)

He can beat Old Hiruzen, EoS Kakashi, and Part 1 Tsunade on their home turf. They're Kage level.


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## Zuhaitz (Feb 13, 2016)

Itachі said:


> ^ Kirin busted a mountain...



And?

Hebi Sasuke > MS Sasuke (the one the Kages fodderized).

But I don't know if he could be considered low kage... The same goes to Deidara...

Maybe they are in the limit of the low Kage level.



Rocky said:


> He can beat Old Hiruzen, EoS Kakashi, and Part 1 Tsunade. They're Kage level.




Old Hiruzen.... maybe.
EoS Kakashi.... doubt it.
Part I Tsunade, if you mean the one with problems with blood yeah. If It's Tsunade as Hokage, no way.


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Hebi Sasuke can beat Tsunade comfortably. He is Kage-level by a solid margin.


Hebi-Sasuke most likely would pierce Tsunade w/ a Chidori Variant through the chest, turn his back on Tsunade thinking he's won (as he did w/ B), and than get pasted by an Okasho surprise attack from behind. 



> And L O L at the notion of Kakuzu beating him. Sasuke summons Manda, who proceeds to rip apart all of Kakuzu's hearts under Sasuke's genjutsu influence. The Uchiha then rushes Kakuzu and as Doton: Domu activates, Sasuke tears through him with a Chidori.


Kakuzu has fine chances of beating Hebi-Sasuke. His Fuuton Atsugi would hard counter Sasuke's Raitons (sans Kirin) and his Katon+Fuuton Combo overwhelms Sasuke's Katons. Heck the fact that Kakashi who has superior CQC skill and exp to Sasuke, and similar level of Raiton mastery as well as a much more diverse arsenal overall was being overwhelmed by Kakuzu, should tell you in and off itself that Sasuke will also likely get overwhelmed, and the match will probably come down to Kirin as it seemed like it was going to come down to Kamui w/ Kakashi. 

So Hebi-Sasuke ether wins w/ Kirin or is killed before he pulls Kirin out; basically he's around Kakuzu's level, not well above it, as Kakuzu is essentially Naruto's equivalent of Deidara, and Sasuke would have also needed Kirin against Deidara if not for the elemental advantage.


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## Rocky (Feb 13, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke has the Curse Seal and Orochimaru's snakes, neither of which Kakashi has.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasuke clearly stated that he has another option , Raiton advantage wasn't really a factor , change all Sasuke's Raiton with Futon (Futon Chidori and variants) and the result stay the same . The databook learly stated he is above the likes of Deidara , he doesn't need Kirin to beat him .


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He can beat Old Hiruzen, EoS Kakashi, and Part 1 Tsunade on their home turf. They're Kage level.


1)Old Hiruzen is subject to early part I power-scaling and getting little panel time in PII, by statements (and i'm not even referring to the PI potentially retecon'd ones, but DBIV ones), Hebi-Sasuke's chances against him are slim to non-existant.   

2) I see no evidence that Kakashi was made Hokage right after the war ended. In-fact the only evidence we have when it comes for timing of when Kakashi become Hokage are the Naruto Hiden novels, which cite that even 1 Year after the war Kakashi left Tsunade as acting Hokage not deeming himself worthy yet, and only takes up the mantel officially at the end of the Kakashi hiden novel. So it would seem Kakashi likely had 1 Year to improve his skills. But even assuming he didn't, we have no clue what Kakashi's level was at w/o the Sharingan. The loss of Sharingan could have enhanced his abilities in some ways, by granting him more stamina for all we know. So to say Hebi-Sasuke can beat Hokage-Kakashi, is certainly pure out your ass speculation, but it's irrelevant anyway to my statement since I said and I quote, "based on the Kages we've seen". Have we seen Hokage-Kakashi fight, nope 

3) Yeah basing it on Tsunade's performance when she was Rusty and Blood phobic is intellectually dishonest and you know it. We never saw P1-Hokage Tsunade fight. Also subject to PI powerscale.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke is Kage level.

I think people get hung up too much on portrayal with Hebi Sasuke and don't look enough at his actual feats... He literally absorbed a Sannin Majin Buu-style and created a move that obliterated V1 Susano'o. On top of that, he's also fast, has Sharingan Genjutsu, and has the powers of the Curse Seal, which essentially gives a boost to all of his offensive and defensive stats. Not to mention he has a boss summon under his belt. 

I also think that Hebi Sasuke could beat Tsunade.

At the same time, I don't think it'd be as easy as people often make it out to be. For example, people argue that Hebi Sasuke could blitz Tsunade and slice her into bits... But Tsunade's not some scrub who can't follow quick movement (like start of Part 2 Sakura), and I don't think that there's enough evidence to suggest that Sasuke is _so_ fast that he can blitz her before she could do anything. It's not like the kid is Minato or anything. The argument that Kirin can mess Tsunade up is solid, but I can't see Hebi Sasuke ever blitzing any of the Sannin and killing them before they can do anything. Do note that Tsunade was about to interfere when A came at KCM Naruto with lethal intent in the War. Now, obviously Tsunade isn't fast enough to intercept A's attack, but that to me suggests that Tsunade could fight A without Lariat taking her head off before she can blink.

People always bring Sasuke's fights with Team Seven and Deidara up. The latter is far more relevant to discussions of speed than the former.



*Spoiler*: __ 










No two ways about it, Sasuke's Body Flicker is incredibly fast. But I see people stating that Sasuke can blitz Jiraiya and Tsunade all the time. Well, for one, Jiraiya has a 4.5 in speed in the Databook just like Deidara, and Jiraiya's also far more experienced than Deidara, so to say that Hebi Sasuke would be able to blitz Jiraiya when he failed to do so against Deidara is absurd. Jiraiya can also fight from long range just the same as Deidara with summons and long-range ninjutsu. Tsunade, on the other hand, may or may not be able to dodge an attacked backed by Sasuke's full-speed Body Flicker (feats actually suggest that she cannot, IMO). However, she wouldn't necessarily have to. Tsunade can merely smash the ground as she did against Kabuto when he tried approach her [1]. Notice that Kabuto backed the fuck up when Tsunade punched the ground, and the force she put into that attack seemed relatively small compared to what she could do with her full strength. If Tsunade sees that she's at a speed disadvantage (like Deidara did), she'll obviously be able to adapt to the situation with stronger ground pounds. Tsunade's not dumber than Deidara.

Anyway, I feel like people underrate Hebi Sasuke and overrate him at the same time. Just my 2 cents.


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## Rocky (Feb 13, 2016)

Kakashi did fight in his novel. He has force lightning now. But no he isn't beating Sasuke. He's legit outclassed in every aspect of combat. Old Hiruzen also has no shot. Sasuke can see through all of his genjutsu, read his Taijutsu with the Sharingan, overpower him with the curse seal's senjutsu, outright obliterate him with Kirin, and I haven't even got to Orochimaru's White Snake power yet. As for Tsunade, I was talking about after she overcame her phobia. She was rusty, but Konoha still made her Hokage.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke's a top Mid Kage, or bottom High Kage. The only Kage I'd put firmly ahead of him are Hashirama, Minato, and Tobirama.

A would beat him in a duel, but I don't think A is overall superior. Sasuke is tactically genius, has more destructive potential with Kirin, support ninjutsu with giant snakes, more versatile ninjutsu, genjutsu, Sharingan insight, flight, regeneration..

I don't believe AAA has the v2 flicker, so Sasuke would be able to avoid him, and probably put him in genjutsu and trick him into hurting himself. Hebi Sasuke was _extremely_ smart, which people forget due to him losing his shit for awhile after fighting Itachi.

He beat Deidara (who prepped immunity to genjtusu) while holding back the entire time, and when Obito set up a land mine field around him. Deidara being someone who captured Gaara _in the desert_ in _his own village_. Gaara in those circumstances was a High Kage.

Moreover, if you give Hebi Sasuke 3 minutes of environmental prep, he can beat almost any Kage with his best jutsu, Kirin. That can't be said for most Kage, who 3 minutes prep doesn't change much. And I'm pretty sure he can stay alive w/o prep for 3 minutes.

Basically, the Deidara and Hebi Sasuke thing comes down to the "Itachi Polarity." People overplay or underplay their strength because of how the forum is divided on the tangential issue of Itachi. Their best abilities: explosive/c4 clones, Kirin, & genjutsu are underplayed.​


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

An accurate way of placing Sasuke would be looking where he was prior to the power up and how high he jumped up. Keeping in mind that we are trying to determine if Sasuke with Orochimaru's powers is able to contend with Kage-level characters. 

Prior to his power up, Sasuke was easily stronger than most of the jounins in Konoha, so much so that aside from Kakashi and Gai, I don't see anyone else, whether it be Hiashi, Yamanaka, Shikaku, Chouza, Kurenai, Dan, Kotestu, Asuma and etc. being able to beat him in an actual combat scenario. So with that in mind, this is prior to his power, he's already stronger than most of Konoha jounins. He can already use multiple elemental techniques, has a couple of summons and can rely on the sharingan when he needs to. At this point, I'd say he was inferior to Kakashi but well on the way to catching up to him.

After his power up, we should start comparing him to the shinobi world leaders, where he would definitely be able to fight against any of the kage and put up a decent fight, in some cases be victorious. The gains he acquired from Orochimaru's jutsu and further augmenting his CS2, he can easily challenge any of the kage and be able to push them truly far. The only one he definitely loses to is 4th Raikage but he can beat the others conditions permitting. I can't see Sasuke winning against Raikage without some form solid defense.

In terms of combat, I'd say he's about as effective as Pain Arc Kakashi, prior to relying on his MS, he was well on his way to be as diversified as Kakashi was with elements, overall taijutsu and genjutsu.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Hiruzen (Old)
A (Sandaime Raikage)
Kisame
Sasori
Gengetsu/Muu
Danzo (w/o Kotoamatsukami)

I don't see Hebi Sasuke beating any of those people bar Sasori and Gengetsu, and I don't think any of those people are "high Kage," personally.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

He could beat Old Hiruzen and Kisame, but that's about it and yeah Sasori gets beat on the daily.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Eh, my perspective:
> 
> *Wins*
> Mifune
> ...




That's interesting. I agree with the majority of both of these lists, but Ōnoki and Mū are out of Hebi Sasuke's league IMO. I just don't see what Hebi Sasuke has in his arsenal to stop Jinton or prep Kirin, I have doubts that his Sharingan can see Mū, and I certainly don't think that Sasuke had hype or portrayal comparable to Ōnoki (who, IMO, was portrayed as the strongest of the Gokage in the War Arc). I disagree that Danzo is high-Kage without Kotoamatsukami. By his own words, he could never catch up to Hiruzen (who I don't think is high Kage), and I think that every high Kage can deal with Izanagi if they have knowledge (and some of them even without knowledge).


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> That's interesting. I agree with the majority of both of these lists, but Ōnoki and Mū are out of Hebi Sasuke's league IMO. I just don't see what Hebi Sasuke has in his arsenal to stop Jinton or prep Kirin.



His Sharingan can IMO see Mu (it saw invisible nanobombs in his bloodstream,) and he has the speed to evade Jinton. This will allow him to get them in genjutsu, set up Kirin, or peg them with shuriken tricks.

And really, if you don't think Hebi Sasuke can avoid Jinton, then you would have to believe Jinton OHKOs Itachi and everybody slower, as I don't believe Susano'o can hold up against Jinton. Evasion's the only way.



Saru said:


> I have doubts that his Sharingan can see Mū, and I certainly don't think that Sasuke had hype or portrayal comparable to Ōnoki (who, IMO, was portrayed as the strongest of the Gokage in the War Arc).



Hebi Sasuke had a great deal of hype in the databook and manga, and was put on a higher level than Orochimaru after adding Orochimaru's power to his own. I don't believe Onoki is much higher than Orochimaru.

Onoki and Sasuke have a direct link in the form of Deidara, who they had both fought before. Onoki couldn't believe Sasuke had done it, and later expressed to Edo Deidara that he was finally fast enough to catch him.

This also supports my first view that Jinton is very evadable. I consider Hebi Sasuke's shunshin to be a much faster than an aerial Deidara, who Onoki stated he had great frustration in catching before.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> His Sharingan can IMO see Mu (it saw invisible nanobombs in his bloodstream,) and he has the speed to evade Jinton. This will allow him to get them in genjutsu, set up Kirin, or peg them with shuriken tricks.




The only reason Sasuke wouldn't have been able to see Deidara's bombs are due to size. The mechanics of Mū's invisibility have nothing to do with size, and Mū also has been shown to erase his presence from even sensors. I think one could make a convincing argument for or against the Sharingan being able to see Mū, but the fact that Sasuke's ability to deal with Mū's invisibility alone is called into question tells me that Mū is probably not a good match up for Sasuke.




> And really, if you don't think Hebi Sasuke can avoid Jinton, then you would have to believe Jinton OHKOs Itachi and everybody slower, as I don't believe Susano'o can hold up against Jinton. Evasion's the only way.




For one, I think that Itachi is significantly faster than Hebi Sasuke. Not a tiers-wide gap, but significantly faster. Itachi also has Kage Bunshin and Karasu Bunshin, and in tandem with genjutsu, that lowers his chances of being hit to almost zero IMO. I do think that Sasuke can avoid Jinton, but Ōnoki has Iwa Bunshin and Doton techniques he can use on top of that, which would lower Sasuke's chances of evasion considerably. I think Ōnoki does quite well against a majority of characters in the manga, actually, so I do see Ōnoki doing quite well and even beating people who I consider high Kage such as Jiraiya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade.

Ōnoki didn't use Jinton against Deidara, and the latter even called Ōnoki fast. If Ōnoki had trouble catching Deidara in his younger days, he certainly wouldn't have had them in the War Arc.






> Hebi Sasuke had a great deal of hype in the databook and manga, and was put on a higher level than Orochimaru after adding Orochimaru's power to his own. I don't believe Onoki is much higher than Orochimaru.




Hebi Sasuke was stated multiple times to have defeated Orochimaru because the latter was in a weakened state, and Sasuke himself told Suigetsu not to underestimate Orochimaru's ability. I don't believe that Ōnoki is higher than Orochimaru at all, personally. In fact, I put them right next to each other terms of overall battle power.

Ōnoki fought Madara and lived. _Twice_. Sasuke and Ōnoki don't even compare in terms of hype and portrayal, IMO. Databook hype should also be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Turrin (Feb 13, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi did fight in his novel. He has force lightning now. But no he isn't beating Sasuke. *He's legit outclassed in every aspect of combat*


A) This is straight false, as we know from DBIII stats that he's empirically better than Sasuke in several areas.

B) We never saw Hokage-Kakashi fight, so we don't know how strong he is. Idk know about the fight Kakashi had in the novel as I never read it, but Kishi was only an adivisor on the novels if I understand correctly, so even if Kakashi was weaker than Hebi-Sasuke in the novels, which you've not at all proved, I still wouldn't put much stock into Kakashi's feats in the novel.



> Old Hiruzen also has no shot. Sasuke can see through all of his genjutsu,[


According to DBIV Hiruzen can use every Genjutsu in the entire leaf village. To say Sasuke can see through every single one of those illusions before he gave Hiruzen an opening, is absolute speculation on your part when said illusions may include non ocular based Genjutsu, like sound, touch, etc... based illusions or ones cast on the battlefield; and so on. Especially since a more develop in his Sharingan capabilities MS-Sasuke was still blindsided by C's illusion for a certain period of time, create an opening for Ei and Darui to get right up close and launch their attacks before Sasuke could break free and even hope to respond (may or may not have had Suigetsu and Juugo not intercepted).



> read his Taijutsu with the Sharingan, .


Hiruzen is better in Taijutsu than Hebi-Sasuke, and due to his utilization of Enma his Taijutsu is tricky and hard to read in the same way Three-Tome had trouble reading KN1 Naruto's movements due to the chakra shroud's unpredictable nature or B's 7 Swords. So no I don't think he's reading through Hiruzen's Taijutsu easily w/ Sharingan. 



> overpower him with the curse seal's senjutsu


Hirusen's counter balanced Buddha's elemental attacks, pretty sure a bit of add Senjutsu isn't do anything to overpower Hiruzen's elemental Jutsu, especially considering his vastly greater versatility (mastered all Ninjutsu in the leaf village, which means tons of elemental Ninjutsu in each element), superior command of the elemental wheel meaning he can counter Sasuke's Raiton's w/ Fuuton and Katon's w/ Suitons, and his ability to use KB to utilize multiple blasts at once or combine elements together to increase their effectiveness. Sasuke is the one that's going to get overpowered and outmatched, not the other way around.



> outright obliterate him with Kirin,


If he manages to survive long enough to pull it out, prep it, and his Katons don't get shut down by Hiruzen's Suitons.



> nd I haven't even got to Orochimaru's White Snake power yet.


Which essentially amount to one Jutsu worth note, Oral Rebirth, which Sasuke can only use a scant amount of times before exhausting himself, and isn't changing anything here.

--------

Hiruzen also has Shiki Fuujin which allows him to defend the village in ways that Sasuke can't, as it enables him to have a decent chance of defeating enemies that Sasuke can't, since it's an extremely OP Triumph Card. 



> As for Tsunade, I was talking about after she overcame her phobia. She was rusty, but Konoha still made her Hokage.



A) Elders and Konoha Jonin didn't know she was Rusty when they sent Jiriaya to get her
B) If you want to argue semantics with me, Tsunade probably was not officially coronated Hokage until several weeks, if not a month after her fight w/ Kabuto, because she and Jiraiya/Naruto needed to recover and than travel back to Konoha, and than her actually selection and coronation needed to take place. Considering that within a few weeks or at most month of being in a coma in Part II, she was able to get into the fighting shape she was in during the Madara duel in that time, I expect the same is true of her ability to get back into fighting shape by the time she was coronated in Part I


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> The only reason Sasuke wouldn't have been able to see Deidara's bombs are due to size. The mechanics of Mū's invisibility have nothing to do with size, and Mū also has been shown to erase his presence from even sensors. I think one could make a convincing argument for or against the Sharingan being able to see Mū, but the fact that Sasuke's ability to deal with Mū's invisibility alone is called into question tells me that Mū is probably not a good match up for Sasuke.



I'm aware the argument can go either way, but the fact that Sasuke can _arguably_ counter the invisibility whereas almost all other Kage can't is not something I hold against Sasuke, but something that raises him up to me. His perception feats in terms of tiny details are really only second to top Byakugans.



Saru said:


> I do think that Sasuke can avoid Jinton, but Ōnoki has Iwa Bunshin and Doton techniques he can use on top of that, which would lower Sasuke's chances of evasion considerably.



If Sasuke can avoid the Jinton at a distance, then he's golden. Because I don't think anybody would disagree that Sasuke's faster in general and has an advantage in close quarters, primarily because he can unload Chidori Nagashi on Onoki the moment he comes close, paralyzing him.



Saru said:


> Hebi Sasuke was stated multiple times to have defeated Orochimaru because the latter was in a weakened state



Big point of correction here because everybody makes this mistake. That was *pre*-Hebi Sasuke. Pre-Hebi Sasuke didn't think he had a chance against Itachi, and only trumped Orochimaru because of Orochimaru's condition. The White Snake was portrayed as a big power-up though.

Hebi Sasuke was portrayed as above Orochimaru, and a rival for Itachi. That was the whole shtick with their powers combined and hunting Itachi. He just underestimated the extent to which Itachi was above Orochimaru (the revived Orochimaru was swiftly beaten by a blind, sick, exhausted, wounded Itachi.)


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

^ Oonoki was faster due to his lightening jutsu, otherwise he's still incredibly slow


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'm aware the argument can go either way, but the fact that Sasuke can _arguably_ counter the invisibility whereas almost all other Kage can't is not something I hold against Sasuke, but something that raises him up to me. His perception feats in terms of tiny details are really only second to top Byakugans.




That's a fair point.




> If Sasuke can avoid the Jinton at a distance, then he's golden. Because I don't think anybody would disagree that Sasuke's faster in general and has an advantage in close quarters, primarily because he can unload Chidori Nagashi on Onoki the moment he comes close, paralyzing him.




I don't think Sasuke's speed is a significant enough to prevent him from ever being tagged by Ōnoki. Ōnoki can make Iwa Bunshin to cover a greater range and attack from multiple angles to make evasion more difficult. He was also able to keep up with Deidara on his bird, and was able to quickly fly a considerable distance and tag Mū after being hit by Naruto's Rasengan [1] [2]. With a lack of defenses against Jinton, and a lack of feint tactics (i.e. Bunshin), I don't see Sasuke loldodging Ōnoki's Jinton the entire match. Ōnoki was fighting Mū with Jinton off-panel for some time too, so it's not like Ōnoki can only use Jinton a couple of times before he's tired. Chidori Nagashi is a solid counter to Ōnoki's Rock Fist, though.




> Big point of correction here because everybody makes this mistake. That was *pre*-Hebi Sasuke. Pre-Hebi Sasuke didn't think he had a chance against Itachi, and only trumped Orochimaru because of Orochimaru's condition. The White Snake was portrayed as a big power-up though.




I don't remember Hebi Sasuke getting a huge amount of hype. Even in the Databook, Orochimaru's ability to quickly heal is what's emphasized. That wouldn't help against Jinton.




> Hebi Sasuke was portrayed as above Orochimaru, and a rival for Itachi. That was the whole shtick with their powers combined and hunting Itachi. He just underestimated the extent to which Itachi was above Orochimaru (the revived Orochimaru was swiftly beaten by a blind, sick, exhausted, wounded Itachi.)




When was Orochisuke portrayed as superior to non-gimped Orochimaru? Hebi Sasuke certainly wasn't a rival for Itachi considering that Itachi checkmated Sasuke multiple times in that fight... On his deathbed.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> When was Orochisuke portrayed as superior to non-gimped Orochimaru?



He knew it was . Same for Orochimaru. After absorbing Orochimaru, he believed he could beat Itachi. Hence the portrayal of the fusion surpassing Orochimaru.

Deidara was also , and was then beaten by Hebi Sasuke when Sasuke was holding back, Deidara had prepped genjutsu immunity, and Obito set up mines.

And even then, I question how solid the argument for Orochimaru being above pre-Hebi Sasuke is. Sasuke merely told Karen that Orochimaru was wekened when he beat him because she was under the impression it was a fair fight. That doesn't necessarily mean he thought he was certainly inferior. It didn't seem so here.​


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

So Hebi Sasuke is Sasuke with Cursed Seal and no MS right? So Sasuke during Itachi Fight right?

In that case hmmm certainly debatable.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> It didn't seem so here[/url] or .[/indent]



Consider the context of which Sasuke stated that in the first scan. Orochimaru's bedridden _coughing his guts out_. Of course he's weaker than Sasuke. If a bodybuilder broke both his legs and I visited him in the hospital, yeah he'd be actually be weaker than me.

Second scan has more to do with latent potential, not strength as of current. And we've seen Sasuke has a ton of that, he was predicted to surpass Madara even prior to attaining Rinnegan.

When Sasuke made the justification as to why Orochimaru lost, it was in response to Karin's very simple statement lacking any sort of superlatives whatsoever: _You're the man who beat Orochimaru._

Not, '_you beat Orochimaru easily_' or '_you kicked his as_s'. And Sasuke still made an excuse as for why he won. His follow-up '_that's all there is to it_' implies the entire reason he managed to overpower the Sannin was because of the fact that Orochimaru was bedridden and handicapped.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 13, 2016)

Fair point, but recall earlier when Kabuto implored Sasuke to spare the Konoha team to increase his odds against Itachi by 1%. Sasuke also earlier told Naruto he'd sacrifice his life and afterlife to Orochimaru if it would kill Itachi.

Because of this, I don't believe Sasuke would betray Orochimaru if he genuinely believed the end result would leave him with less chance to defeat Itachi. He believed Sasuke in control of the joint body > Orochimaru in control of the body.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

He's absolutely Kage level but he's not better than mid kage. Saying he's high end mid kage is a joke because MS Sasuke and SM Naruto were the highest of the mid kage borderline high kage. Hebi is comfortably in the middle of that mid kage rank. He certainly is not above the sannin


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Fair point, but recall earlier when Kabuto implored Sasuke to spare the Konoha team to increase his odds against Itachi by 1%. Sasuke also earlier told Naruto he'd sacrifice his life and afterlife to Orochimaru if it would kill Itachi.
> 
> Because of this, I don't believe Sasuke would betray Orochimaru if he genuinely believed the end result would leave him with less chance to defeat Itachi. He believed Sasuke in control of the joint body > Orochimaru in control of the body.



What does that have to do with comparing each other in their forms prior to the joint body?

Sasuke believing he has more capability using Orochimaru's power than Orochimaru using Sasuke's powers can be interpreted as Sasuke thinking Orochimaru wouldn't make proper use of the Sharingan.  Comparing their selves prior to merging is an entirely different story, and one that Sasuke conceded as being the inferior in.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He knew it was . Same for Orochimaru. After absorbing Orochimaru, he believed he could beat Itachi. Hence the portrayal of the fusion surpassing Orochimaru.




Sasuke believed that neither him _nor_ Orochimaru could defeat Itachi (on their own) [1]. Nothing about that statement implies Sasuke's superiority. The fact that Sasuke thought he could defeat Itachi after absorbing Orochimaru only means that he thought that the two of them could defeat Itachi together. Orochimaru had no intention of taking down Itachi alongside Sasuke; Orochimaru's goal was Sasuke's body.




> Deidara was also , and was then beaten by Hebi Sasuke when Sasuke was holding back, Deidara had prepped genjutsu immunity, and Obito set up mines.




Just because Hebi Sasuke was able to defeat Deidara doesn't mean that Orochimaru wouldn't have been able to. If you think that Hebi Sasuke was holding back in that fight, then that much should be obvious to you. Itachi and Kisame were sent to retrieve Naruto, but did they succeed? No. Kakuzu and Hidan were sent to retrieve Naruto, but did they succeed? No, they failed miserably. Deidara being assigned to do something doesn't imply automatic success.



> And even then, I question how solid the argument for Orochimaru being above pre-Hebi Sasuke is. Sasuke merely told Karen that Orochimaru was wekened when he beat him because she was under the impression it was a fair fight. That doesn't necessarily mean he thought he was certainly inferior. It didn't seem so here.




It was stated numerous times in various forms that Sasuke beat Orochimaru only because *a)* Orochimaru was in a weakened state, *b)* Sasuke had done research on Orochimaru, and *c)* Orochimaru could not make use of his arms for jutsu.



*Spoiler*: __ 







***​


			
				Third Databook said:
			
		

> Sasuke Uchiha
> 
> With my hatred... I'll turn the illusion into reality!
> [Rebellion]
> For the sake of revenge Sasuke, willing to go as far as to stain his reputation becoming a "nukenin", has run to Orochimaru's lair. But even though he abandoned his village, it doesn't mean that he lost his pride as a member of the strongest clan...! He does accept Orochimaru's instruction, but meanwhile he rejects his evil beliefs and *waits for the opportunity to rebel*. When the Serpent misjudges Sasuke's growth, the *"perfect chance"* comes!








Sasuke himself denied his victory against Orochimaru in the context of _strength_. 

***​
*Karin:* _"*Weakling*! You're even the man that beat Orochimaru!"_

*Sasuke:*_ "Orochimaru was already *weak*."_

***​
That's a pretty clear indication of who's stronger. There shouldn't be doubt as to who's stronger between Orochimaru and _pre_-Hebi Sasuke. I believe that, like Sasuke said to Suigetsu, "you're underestimating Orochimaru far too much."

I'll summon Izaya if I have to. ​


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

Saru knowing full well he can't win a debate and now resorting to the equivalent of pulling a plug out the socket when your friend is winning


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 13, 2016)

How is he doing that, exactly?


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

I agree with Saru, Sasuke himself stated it. 

I'm just baffled that people think he is that highly ranked. He barely beat deidara with a huge advantage. Literally the biggest advantage anyone has had in the series, arguably.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> I agree with Saru, Sasuke himself stated it.
> 
> I'm just baffled that people think he is that highly ranked. He barely beat deidara with a huge advantage. *Literally the biggest advantage anyone has had in the series, arguably.*



You forgot about the time Sasori fought Sakura, he had the biggest advantage ever and lost.





ATastyMuffin said:


> How is he doing that, exactly?




Saru said:


> I'll summon Izaya if I have to.


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You forgot about the time Sasori fought Sakura, he had the biggest advantage ever and lost.




Never in fiction, to my knowledge, has a character been able to breach a plot shield.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You forgot about the time Sasori fought Sakura, he had the biggest advantage ever and lost.
> ​



Stop that


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## Dr. White (Feb 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> You forgot about the time Sasori fought Sakura, he had the biggest advantage ever and lost.
> ​



You mean the advantage where his Master Puppeteer Grandma with master knowledge on him, and a moveset perfectly fit to counter his if given a Tank to fight with who herself was a healer with antidote and evasive specialist


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 13, 2016)

All 3 of you culeros need to just slam your heads against the wall. I love how everyone misconstrues my subtle underhanded jabs at Suckura to some weird bullshit.

Sasoir's biggest advantage was Sakura on the other team


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## Saru (Feb 13, 2016)

Sasori was the only Akatsuki to lose to Sakura's plot shield; someone's gotta stand up for him.


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## Matty (Feb 13, 2016)

Meh he killed her twice, good enough for me.

I personally like ballsackura though, besides her annoying love of sasuke


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## Skaddix (Feb 13, 2016)

When u lose to Sakura u dont get respect in this manga.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 14, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> He barely beat deidara with a huge advantage.



Deidara was the one with the huge advantage. First, Obito saved him from  with a warning. Then Obito set up a mine field around Sasuke, stopping his movement.

Then we learned that Deidara had prepped a counter specifically for Sharingan genjutsu, a huge piece of Sasuke's power, because Itachi had used it to smoke Deidara a few years earlier.

Then we learned that Sasuke had a trump jutsu he never used, and we were constantly reminded Sasuke was in fact never trying to kill Deidara because he wanted information on Itachi's whereabouts.

In contrast, saying Sasuke's "huge" advantage was his Sharingan insight and raiton element is ridiculous. Those are just his powers. He didn't have inside knowledge. He didn't have Obito helping.​


Saru said:


> Just because Hebi Sasuke was able to defeat Deidara doesn't mean that Orochimaru wouldn't have been able to.



Orochimaru would not have been able to detect or counter c4 nor would I agree that he could swiftly kill Deidara before Deidara used it. Deidara is stronger than Orochimaru in my opinion.​


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## Icegaze (Feb 14, 2016)

@sadgoob

I believe the deidara > orochimaru is really just your opinion thing 

Being blitz by sai kind of makes it hard for me or anyone to believe that orochimaru can't pull off the same thing 

Deidara would get dispatched long before he uses C4

Then again on sight of a giant bomb . Chances are oro would already be trying to run so far away he may already be out of C4 AoE 

But let's not get into a deidara vs oro on this thread


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## Saru (Feb 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> ]Orochimaru would not have been able to detect or counter c4 nor would I agree that he could swiftly kill Deidara before Deidara used it. Deidara is stronger than Orochimaru in my opinion.




While it's true that Deidara's C4 is incredibly small and invisible to the naked eye, the cloud of C4 itself is massive, and Sasuke described the cloud as "large."


*Spoiler*: __ 









Now, Orochimaru's use of snakes is far more liberal than Hebi Sasuke's, so it stands to reason that Orochimaru would have at least one snake on the field when fighting Deidara if not thousands [1]. I think there would be a decent chance of Orochimaru detecting C4 through his snakes' senses. Snakes can sense things through temperature or smell. 



Orochimaru could also use Kage Bunshin to feint destruction and observe the effects of C4, then move far outside of the initial emission radius. _Fūton: Daitoppa_ may be able to blow the cloud of explosives away if Orochimaru uses enough chakra. C4 is not impossible to avoid with competent tactics. Honestly, I don't think Deidara would bring out C4 on Orochimaru before he's killed. Orochimaru tends to play with his victims, but as he displayed in his battle with KN4, he can get serious when he has to. A considerable portion of Deidara's offensive arsenal is something that Orochimaru probably could not afford to tank, so I see no reason for him to play around. Deidara, on the other hand, used C4 as a next-to-last resort against Sasuke, so he certainly wouldn't use C4 against Orochimaru immediately.​


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