# Tsunade vs Hebi Sasuke



## Cord (Jan 2, 2014)

One of the earliest thread match-ups that I created in the Battledome. Would like to see how the folks' opinions changed since then.

*Distance:* 30 meters

*Knowledge:* Manga

*Location:* Open field

*Mindset:* In character

*Restrictions:* *None*​


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

You must have saw me and Kyokan.

Any Itachi fan would almost immediately side with Hebi Sasuke.

I'm gonna go with Tsunade with superior defense via Katsuyu and better taijustu skill.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 2, 2014)

I'm going to almost immediately side with Hebi Sasuke because I am an Itachi fan.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> I'm going to almost immediately side with Hebi Sasuke because I am an Itachi fan.



Okay jackass. Let me change that to Itachi wanker.  You aren't an Itachi wanker


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke wins, he's basically a hard counter to Tsunade. Base Sasuke is already be faster than Tsunade, he has both a higher DB score, managed to tango with Itachi (despite the latter holding back) and fought a speedster like B in a *weakened state*. Also considering his Shunshin has been praised by a few characters I'm inclined to believe he's faster. Add on CS2 (which is similar to a KN1 boost) and Sharingan and flight; he can comfortably outmaneuver her all day. Even if she lands a hit, unlikely as it is he can use Oral Rebirth to escape. She won't want to come near anyways as Raiton variants will slice her up, Nagashi can paralyze her and Sharingan genjutsu is always there as a threat.

If he catches her in Sharingan genjutsu early on and she doesn't have her regeneration then Chidori katana to her neck wins this. I doubt it'd be that easy, with regeneration Sauce will figure out regular Raiton/Katon won't cut it so he'll Shunshin away, fly up and fire off a couple of Katon to light up the atmosphere then bring down Kirin. Itachi who is faster than Tsunade couldn't dodge and I have my doubts regeneration will allow her to survive a mountain-buster being guided through her skull.

If Katsuyu comes out, Manda can handle her long enough for Sasuke to beat Tsunade in my opinion. Although not as versatile, in pure combat Manda has been shown to be superior and I have a hard time believing something that took the brunt of C0 will die easily to acid. And Tsunade isn't one-shotting Manda, Sasuke is there as well. He's chop off her hand with Chidori Eisou before she has a chance to punch Manda. And I'm going off a limb here and saying Hachibi limbs are more durable then human flesh. B wasn't comfortable taking flaming shruikens but the Hachibi's limbs were. Playing dead won't do anything either, this Sasuke is too smart for that.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke has the advantage due to his range with Chidori Eisou; unlike a Susano'o blade, Tsunade can't just grab it.

Byakugou makes her immune to most of his Jutsu, but she still doesn't have the feats to support the idea that she can persevere through decapitation and/or having her severed head roasted with a Katon.

Katsuyu provides some protection, but her lack of speed is ultimately damning against Sasuke.

With Juin-enhanced durability and Orochimaru's healing factor, Sasuke doesn't need to worry about taking a hit or two, either; Orochimaru took one to the jaw. Sauce has big, leathery wings he can meatshield with, and his durability in the second Juin state should at least be above Madara's (who was able to withstand Tsunade's attacks by blocking). Unless it's Tsunade's best shot with Byakugou activated, she has no hope of putting him down just by landing a blow, which will be difficult enough with his superior speed, superior range, and Sharingan.

This is all just assuming that Genjutsu plays a minimal role.

Factor in the possibility of Kirin, and I have to side with Hebi Sasuke here.


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## Cord (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> You must have saw me and Kyokan.



I did see it. And it's been a while since I've seen this discussion come out, so might as well put it in a thread. The popular opinion back then was that Hebi Sasuke would beat Tsunade more often than not and I'm interested how much the consensus has changed considering that new feats have been introduced (particularly from Katsuyu).



> Any Itachi fan would almost immediately side with Hebi Sasuke.



And how does that relate?


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## Shinryu (Jan 2, 2014)

Who is faster than who and explain how they are faster.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke was blitzing someone an entire tier more reflexive than Tsunade in the databooks. Tsunade's going to lose her head pretty quickly via Chidori blade, with or without genjutsu playing a role.


​


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> I did see it. And it's been a while since I've seen this discussion come out, so might as well put it in a thread. The popular opinion back then was that Hebi Sasuke would beat Tsunade more often than not and I'm interested how much the consensus has changed considering that new feats have been introduced (particularly from Katsuyu).
> 
> 
> 
> And how does that relate?



I guarantee you every Itachi wanker sides with Sasuke.

Hebi Sasuke was able to pressure Itachi. They give him the speed advantage, and with Sharingan pre cog and Chidori variants, they for see a good beheading.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I guarantee you every Itachi wanker sides with Sasuke. Hebi Sasuke was able to pressure Itachi. They give him the speed advantage, and with Sharingan pre cog and Chidori variants, they for see a good beheading.



That doesn't have so much to do with liking Itachi as it does with being able to see the difference between numbers like 3.5 and 4.5 in the reflex category (and Deidara's vastly superior evasion feats.)

Itachi fans are just more likely to be able to see that rather obvious difference. After all, if _you_ could see the writing on the wall, then you would be an Itachi fan and not an Itachi hater.

​


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> That doesn't have so much to do with liking Itachi as it does with being able to see the difference between numbers like 3.5 and 4.5 in the reflex category (and Deidara's vastly superior evasion feats.)
> 
> Itachi fans are just more likely to be able to see that rather obvious difference. After all, if _you_ could see the writing on the wall, then you would be an Itachi fan and not an Itachi hater.
> 
> ​



3.5 reflexes back to very beginning part 2 Tsunade. This is war arc Tsunade that actually received battle feats. 3.5 is basically from part 1.

Furthermore Shizune has a 4, and she was blitzed way back in part 1 by a rusty Tsunade. This version of Tsunade is ATLEAST a 4.5, and you very well know it.

I'm inclined to say Hebi Sasuke would not be so overrated if it wasn't for his battle with Itachi. You Itachi wankers tend to over exaggerate Itachis speed likewise.


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## Rocky (Jan 2, 2014)

4.5 is the same as Deidara, who got blitzed. ^


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## αce (Jan 2, 2014)

Isn't it pretty much confirmed that Hashirama sage mode level regeneration can't regenerate limbs? Or at least not fast if they can. If Sasuke cuts something off, it's going to take Tsunade a long time to regenerate - which is why the "tsunade tanks sasuke's attacks" argument was pointless in the first place.

He cripples her, uses his sharingan pre-cog to dodge any counter attacks (which is why Sasuke was given chidori in the first place, since the sharingan is specifically good at avoiding counter attacks when moving at high speed) and then goes back and finishes her off when shes crippled.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Furthermore Shizune has a 4, and she was blitzed way back in part 1 by a rusty Tsunade.



Ambushing a loyal friend isn't really a feat of speed so much as it is proof of Tsunade being unworthy of the Hokage title.​


Likes boss said:


> This version of Tsunade is ATLEAST a 4.5, and you very well know it.



Oh, _at least?_ Besides, 4.5 isn't enough, as Deidara showed. So unless you're arguing Tsunade is as fast as Gai...​


Likes boss said:


> I'm inclined to say Hebi Sasuke would not be so overrated if it wasn't for his battle with Itachi.



Sasuke beating Deidara (with Obito's help) while holding back was just as impressive, and beyond Tsunade's capability.​


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Ambushing a loyal friend isn't really a feat of speed so much as it is proof of Tsunade being unworthy of the Hokage title.​
> 
> 
> Oh, _at least?_ Besides, 4.5 isn't enough, as Deidara showed. So unless you're arguing Tsunade is as fast as Gai...​
> ...



Shizune  knows how reckless and unpredictable that stage of Tsunade was. She was preparing for her to attack, and she even said so. Just her even with a 4 in speed stat was unable to react to Rusty Tsunade who had a 3.5. I already told you I hate DB stats, but you insist.

If 20 years out of practice Tsunade was able to blitz a 4 speed stat, then current Tsunade is easily a 4.5

I admit that was impressive. But Sasuke is a main character. Plot is his bitch. He should have died many times through out that battle, and Deidara got Completley bullshitted.  

Tsunade also isn't pitted to fight Deidara despite her being overall superior to him.

Thanks for editing your post Completley after. Btw, this is 30m, and Tsunade can afford to take a hit which would end Sasukes life.


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## Bonly (Jan 2, 2014)

The good ol Hebi Sasuke vs Tsunade thread. I'd favor Tsunade to lose more times then not and to put it simply put, Sasuke is just better suited to this fight with his arsenal.

CQC? Sasuke has the advantage here. He's faster then her, he has better reflexes via Sharingan, he has genjutsu, his sword which can be helpful via Chidori blade, Chidori Nagashi and Chidori Eisō can easily help him against Tsunade. He'll be constantly hurting and being able to dodge her attacks and now we can also throw in CS1+CS2 to further boost his speed and jutsu power and things aren't looking to good for Tsunade to actually land a hit. Mid-Long range? Do I even need to talk about how outclassed she is?

As always Tsunade's only real chances of winning is if she summons Battle Dome Katsuyu or Sasuke attacks her and thinks she's dead and she manages to land a blow on him. I usually see almost everyone agree on this bar Tsunade fans and usually there is about three that will post such, one of whom is already here. Expect to see Godaime Tsunade,FlamingRain, and Matto-Sama to be the ones to make a good case for Tsunade winnings aka the other three horseman


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Like boss, you do realize Sasuke blitzed someone with 4.5 in speed (plus good speed feats as well) without CS1? Now apply a CS1 boost and someone who is at best on par with Deidara won't fare any better. And Byakogou or not, Chidori Eisou spikes through her head is not going to go down well.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

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Kyokan said:


> Like boss, you do realize Sasuke blitzed someone with 4.5 in speed (plus good speed feats as well) without CS1? Now apply a CS1 boost and someone who is at best on par with Deidara won't fare any better. And Byakogou or not, Chidori Eisou spikes through her head is not going to go down well.



You do realize Sasuke doesn't bring out Cs1 at the start of a fight ?

You do realize this is 30m right?

You do realize that by the time Cs1 comes out, Katsuyu is summoned as a meat shield?


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## Bonly (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ```
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> ```
> 
> You do realize Sasuke doesn't bring out Cs1 at the start of a fight ?



He never said Sasuke would bring it out at the start of a fight, he just mentioned it.



> You do realize this is 30m right?



He never said anything to say he didn't.



> You do realize that by the time Cs1 comes out, Katsuyu is summoned as a meat shield?



Did you really bring out how Sasuke doesn't do something(talking about that CS1) and then go on to say this when Tsunade has never used Katsuyu for a meat shield when she can tank things herself?


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

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Bonly said:


> He never said Sasuke would bring it out at the start of a fight, he just mentioned it.
> 
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> ...



Will he not need it bring it out before she summons Katsuyu?

He said he blitzed someone with the same speed stat as her. Nevermind the fact that he was a lot closer then 30m

Disregarding the fact that she used Katsuyu to protect people from ST . Not had she been given the chance to anyway considering she has less manga time then Hebi Sasuke. Against Oro, she did not need to use Katsuyu and was suffering from her phobia. And she didn't even summon it against Madara .


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


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Do you realize Tsunade doesn't bring out Katsuyu at the start of a fight? Also Tsunade's reactions aren't better (I'd say they're equal or worse) then Deidara's so he may not even need CS1 to have a blitzing chance. 

Sasuke can close the distance (one or two quick Shunshin will be enough) and Tsunade likes CQC so she'll go for that. Manda can handle Katsuyu too, Sasuke stops Tsunade from manhandling Manda.


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## ZE (Jan 2, 2014)

Healing ninjas are said to have very good predictability skills. That and the fact that Hebi Sasuke?s blitz attempt on Deidara was a result of Deidara?s distraction makes me believe Sasuke wouldn?t be capable of blitzing anyone here. 

I?m a firm believer that the only character in this manga that can end a fight against kage level opponents with a simple blitz is Minato, and that?s only because he has blitzed at least 5 kage level nins before. And in some cases he even needs spacetime ninjutsu.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Do you realize Tsunade doesn't bring out Katsuyu at the start of a fight? Also Tsunade's reactions aren't better (I'd say they're equal or worse) then Deidara's so he may not even need CS1 to have a blitzing chance.
> 
> Sasuke can close the distance (one or two quick Shunshin will be enough) and Tsunade likes CQC so she'll go for that. Manda can handle Katsuyu too, Sasuke stops Tsunade from manhandling Manda.



Tsunade has summoned Katsuyu once in battle and Kishi was building that moment up for all the Sannin to triple summon. In a situation like this, Tsunade is sure to summon early.


Id say there reactions are equal considering she could blitz someone with a 4 speed stat while she was Completley rusty. Also, closing 30m, gives Tsunade a perfect chance to activate Byakago and summon.

OR. Katusyu spilts up and distracts Sasuke, and Tsunade breaks Manda's jaw.

ALSO DB doesn't consider the speed increase Byakago gives. So her 4.5 should be higher with her regen tech on.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Tsunade has summoned Katsuyu once in battle and Kishi was building that moment up for all the Sannin to triple summon. In a situation like this, Tsunade is sure to summon early.
> 
> 
> Id say there reactions are equal considering she could blitz someone with a 4 speed stat while she was Completley rusty. Also, closing 30m, gives Tsunade a perfect chance to activate Byakago and summon.
> ...


So what? Her first move isn't to instantly summon, she goes in more often then not because she's a tank and can survive most attacks.

Irrelevant, Shizune was not prepared. Even if we say her reactions are equal, Deidara was blitzed at close range. The same could happen here.

Um, CS2 Sasuke can dodge acid all day. Katsuyu isn't faster then Tsunade and Tsunade isn't as fast as Sasuke let alone CS2 Sasuke. He'll probably opt for flight to dodge Katsuyu and if Tsunade goes for Manda he'll slice her arms off with senjutsu-boosted Chidori Eisou.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> So what? Her first move isn't to instantly summon, she goes in more often then not because she's a tank and can survive most attacks.
> 
> Irrelevant, Shizune was not prepared. Even if we say her reactions are equal, Deidara was blitzed at close range. The same could happen here.
> 
> Um, CS2 Sasuke can dodge acid all day. Katsuyu isn't faster then Tsunade and Tsunade isn't as fast as Sasuke let alone CS2 Sasuke. He'll probably opt for flight to dodge Katsuyu and if Tsunade goes for Manda he'll slice her arms off with senjutsu-boosted Chidori Eisou.



It's also not IC for Sasuke to use Chidori variants to start with. It's also IC For him to behead anyone. So he stabs her through her gut, and she ends the right right there ? Lol is that what happens? This isn't a manga battle. Plot doesn't change anything.

Shizune was just as prepared as Deidara was. Difference is, A RUSTY Tsunade without Byakaguo actually landed the blitz, as Hebi Sasuke did not.

The moment Sasuke opts for flight( not IC) is the moment Tsunade opts for Slug meatshield( also not IC). She can use Katusyu slugs to guard her as she manhandles Manda, and Katsuyu and regen stop Chidori variants.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> It's also not IC for Sasuke to use Chidori variants to start with. It's also IC For him to behead anyone. So he stabs her through her gut, and she ends the right right there ? Lol is that what happens? This isn't a manga battle. Plot doesn't change anything.
> 
> Shizune was just as prepared as Deidara was. Difference is, A RUSTY Tsunade without Byakaguo actually landed the blitz, as Hebi Sasuke did not.
> 
> The moment Sasuke opts for flight( not IC) is the moment Tsunade opts for Slug meatshield( also not IC). She can use Katusyu slugs to guard her as she manhandles Manda, and Katsuyu and regen stop Chidori variants.


Um, yes it is. What did he use against Deidara? Karasu Itachi? Orochimaru? It was Chidori. Um, he rarely goes Chidori to the gut, Chidori Eisou to the gut is more likely followed by the Chidori Eisou spikes.

Tsunade blitzed her at less then 5m, Deidara was much further then that.

Senjutsu-enhanced Katon Dragons or Chidori Eisou rip through Katsuyu like butter and you think Manda is going to sit there and wait for Tsunade to punt his ass? He's pretty fucking fast if you forgot and can shed skin to avoid damage.


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## Bonly (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> 
> Will he not need it bring it out before she summons Katsuyu?



Are you suggesting Tsunade would do that at the start of the fight to come to the conclusion that he said Sasuke would use CS1 at the start when he didn't say that?



> He said he blitzed someone with the same speed stat as her. Nevermind the fact that he was a lot closer then 30m



And? couldn't he simply refer to when they eventually met in CQC which they would?



> Disregarding the fact that she used Katsuyu to protect people from ST



Assuming you correctly read what I said then you'll realize that this doesn't help you.



> Not had she been given the chance to anyway considering she has less manga time then Hebi Sasuke.



No she's been given the chance, she just chose to not do it.



> Against Oro, she did not need to use Katsuyu and was suffering from her phobia.



Sorry but this doesn't help you any more. We already seen that people can use summoning jutsu without actually drawing blood.



> And she didn't even summon it against Madara .



Indeed she didn't, doesn't mean she couldn't.


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## Trojan (Jan 2, 2014)

Tsunade wins.

She fought a superior uchiha a MUCH stronger one (or 5?) actually and she was able to keep up with that
challenge, I don't see her losing against Hibe Sasuke.


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## Krippy (Jan 2, 2014)

lelcordelia 

Nothing's changed. The only people who would side with Tsunade here are the same people who have side with her in the past: her fans.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Um, yes it is. What did he use against Deidara? Karasu Itachi? Orochimaru? It was Chidori. Um, he rarely goes Chidori to the gut, Chidori Eisou to the gut is more likely followed by the Chidori Eisou spikes.
> 
> Tsunade blitzed her at less then 5m, Deidara was much further then that.
> 
> Senjutsu-enhanced Katon Dragons or Chidori Eisou rip through Katsuyu like butter and you think Manda is going to sit there and wait for Tsunade to punt his ass? He's pretty fucking fast if you forgot and can shed skin to avoid damage.



He never starts with Chidori variants, does he ? Where else does he chidori then? I don't recall him ever even attempting to behead anyone. 

That was also a rusty non Byakago Tsunade that actually managed to blitz her unlike Sasuke.

Katusyu could survive The Kurama cloak that absolutely Tore Oro to shreds. It also survived ST with no injures. That coupled with Tsunades durabilty( Yasaka tank) and her regeneration, should have Tsunade perfectly fine.

Tsunade outpaced him back in part 1 while carrying a skyscraper sized sword. She runs circles around Manda.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Are you suggesting Tsunade would do that at the start of the fight to come to the conclusion that he said Sasuke would use CS1 at the start when he didn't say that?
> 
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Yes I am.

Yes after the slug is already summoned.

Meaning she would use it on herself is she needed too? 

She didn't need to.

Did Tsunade use blood or not ?

Plot.


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 2, 2014)

Sasuke can close the distance against Tsunade and his attack is unblockable. If Tsunade does block she loses a limb.

edit: I'll say she can win if she manages to scramble Sasuke's nervous system though and make him unable to move properly. I see Sasuke swinging and Tsunade not having anything to defend though. He may not blitz, but he can close the distance, and Tsunade simply can't block chidori.


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## Ersa (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> He never starts with Chidori variants, does he ? Where else does he chidori then? I don't recall him ever even attempting to behead anyone.
> 
> That was also a rusty non Byakago Tsunade that actually managed to blitz her unlike Sasuke.
> 
> ...


I just gave you three examples. Give me an example of Tsunade starting off with Katsuyu.  She'll enter CQC first and Sauce has his blitzing opportunity then.

Byakugo doesn't boost speed, Madara didn't comment on any speed boost nor was it stated. Rusty Tsunade blitzing someone who is not as fast as Deidara, from close range and not an enemy. Hardly applicable to a real fight.

So Katsuyu is as durable as Naruto's book?  Senjutsu boosted Chidori variants would also tear Orochimaru to shreds too. Katsuyu isn't tanking a stronger version of an attack that sliced off Hachibi limbs 

Tsunade came from above while the latter was distracted, if Manda is focussed on her she isn't doing shit, especially if Sasuke is there.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> I just gave you three examples. Give me an example of Tsunade starting off with Katsuyu.  She'll enter CQC first and Sauce has his blitzing opportunity then.
> 
> Byakugo doesn't boost speed, Madara didn't comment on any speed boost nor was it stated. Rusty Tsunade blitzing someone who is not as fast as Deidara, from close range and not an enemy. Hardly applicable to a real fight.
> 
> ...



- Didn't Start with Chidori against Deidara
 - I'll give you Itachi, however 30m is way to far for Tsunade not to capitalize on.

It heavily boosted Sakuras speed, and Tsunade performs better and after with the seal activated. RUSTY TSUNADE without Byakago activated blitzed someone who was .5 slower then Deidara. A current Tsunade with Byakago activated is much much faster. It doesn't matter if it was her enemy or not. Shizune had here guard up and said she wouldn't let Tsunade past. Then got blitzed. That's all.


Don't pull that item bullshit on me. Katusyu is a living thing, not an object. Shall we bring clothes into this discussion ?

It would tear Oro to shreds, but Katsuyu survived something that tore him to shreds with no viable injuries. Now add Tsunades durabilty and regeneration, and you my sir have yourself a good ole fashioned tank.

 Minato's Kunai and Obitos shiruken sliced through bee no problem also.

Re-read those chapters. I know them accurately by now. Jumping in the air is an added task Tsunade would have to do anyway.  In the same panel as Jirayis Katon, the sword wasn't even in sight and Tsunade was in front of Katsuyu. Then in the very next panel, she appears above Manda. She would have to shunshin to wherever the sword was, then double back around, then jump higher then Manda before Manda simply dashed at Gambunta.  She did this while RUSTY and carrying something that heavily slowed her speed.


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## Bonly (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yes I am.



So in other words you're bringing up thing she hasn't been shown to do. In that case why bother to mention that Sasuke doesn't use CS1 at the start and try to hold it against others when you're doing the same.



> Meaning she would use it on herself is she needed too?



Glad you agree she didn't use Katsuyu as a meat shield herself. 



> She didn't need to.



Proof?



> Did Tsunade use blood or not ?



Does Tsunade need to use blood or not?



> Plot.



Everything that happens is plot.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Bonly said:


> So in other words you're bringing up thing she hasn't been shown to do. In that case why bother to mention that Sasuke doesn't use CS1 at the start and try to hold it against others when you're doing the same.
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If Sasuke uses CS1 then Tsunade summons the slug. Simple as that.

In pretty sure she is capable of that Antdog. It's like saying Sasuke can only use Kirin at the Uchiha shrine.

She could use her body against Oro considering she has plenty of knowledge on him.

She's been shown too need blood.

Yes, but plot restricts people sometime. Like Sasuke survive C0 was absolute plot. Sasuke surviving Ay was plot. Sasuke getting revived twice against KB was plot. Sasuke has a lot of plot on his side. He completely bullshits battles all the time.


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## Bonly (Jan 2, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If Sasuke uses CS1 then Tsunade summons the slug. Simple as that.



. Not even gonna touch the above anymore



> In pretty sure she is capable of that Antdog. It's like saying Sasuke can only use Kirin at the Uchiha shrine.



I'm pretty sure you missed the point like a boss. 



> She could use her body against Oro considering she has plenty of knowledge on him.



How is that proof that she didn't need to use it? Was she not capable of using her body against Orochi when she started to summon Katsuyu after she got over her fear of blood? Yet she summoned Katsuyu didn't she? So like I said, she had the chance to, she just didn't use it. 



> She's been shown too need blood.



Not really. Everyone just goes with that method bar a few, nothing suggest she needs to unless you think she's behind her fellow Sannin members who can summoning without bringing blood.



> Yes, but plot restricts people sometime. Like Sasuke survive C0 was absolute plot. Sasuke surviving Ay was plot. Sasuke getting revived twice against KB was plot. Sasuke has a lot of plot on his side. He completely bullshits battles all the time.



Exactly, everything that happens is due to plot and that restricts certain people at different times. You can't cry and say "plot" to try and blow something off. Tsunade had chances to summon Katsuyu but chose not to and you can't simple blow that off due to "plot" or else we could all say Tsunade only uses Byakugo due to "plot" thus she won't here and gets her head cut off. But i'm pretty sure you won't blow that off.


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## Veracity (Jan 2, 2014)

Bonly said:


> . Not even gonna touch the above anymore
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Huh? She summoned Katsuyu because he summoned Manda. It was the entire damn point of the manga chapter of the 3 way deadlock. That's the entire point. 

If she's behind them, I don't really care, as using blood doesn't change much. She also didn't summon in earlier as Kishi wanted a 3 way summoning regardless.

But the Madara point is obviously because if plot and you know this. She is revered as the "Slug Princess" meaning she uses the slug a damn lot. Yet she only decided to summon it after she was fucked by Madara. She had SEVERAL times to summon it , but Kishi did not want her too. Furthermore, summoning such has no backfire unlike curse seal. She had no reason not to summon it. 

There's a difference between plot and character induced stupidity.  The latter is Tsunade not summoning Katsuyu, the Edo Kage playing with Hiruzen. While things like Hebi Sasuke pressuring Itachi and SM Naruto soloing Sandaime Raikage are actually believable feats. Then there is plot induced stupidity like Sasuke surviving C0.


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## Bonly (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Huh? She summoned Katsuyu because *he summoned Manda.* It was the entire damn point of the manga chapter of the 3 way deadlock. That's the entire point.



False. Here she punches Orochi away and he only manages to stand up as she tells him what her new jutsu(to Orochi) does. As you can see here Tsunade is taking her blood and getting ready to summon Katsuyu then the other two goes to use summoning.



> If she's behind them, I don't really care, as using blood doesn't change much. She also didn't summon in earlier as Kishi wanted a 3 way summoning regardless.







> But the Madara point is obviously because if plot and you know this. *She is revered as the "Slug Princess" meaning she uses the slug a damn lot.*Yet she only decided to summon it after she was fucked by Madara. She had SEVERAL times to summon it , but Kishi did not want her too. Furthermore, summoning such has no backfire unlike curse seal. She had no reason not to summon it.



And here is the problem with you. If you actually read the manga then you'll see how Katsuyu has been used by Kishi. Katsuyu has been used for defense and healing purposes only with one time being summoned for fighting. Don't sit here and assume that bold means or implies that Tsunade actually summons Katsuyu for battle alot. 

Look at when Pain attacked the village. Katsuyu was used for defense to protect people. Look at the end of the Kage fight.  Katsuyu was used to heal the Kages. Look at when Sasuke and the Edo Hokages got to the battle field. Sakura used Katsuyu to heal people. Look at when Tsunade and the other four Kages got back to the battle field with Orochi. Sakura+Tsunade used Katsuyu for healing. 

So how do you know that Tsunade got the name for using it in battle instead of healing or defense for most of the time like the manga implies? It seems to me that you wish to cry "plot" for why she didn't summon Katsuyu based on her title she is known but it appears you didn't actually think of what situations Tsunade may have summoned Katsuyu to get that title. You seem to just appear it to all situations and say it's plot. But I have a question for you. If Tsunade mainly summoned Katsuyu outside of battle and people happen to see her bring out the slug for healing and protecting, then why is it "plot"(look at it in a bad sense) that kept her from doing it? Couldn't it simply be in her character to not do it? Couldn't it be simply that she didn't want to Summon Katsuyu because she thought Katsuyu wouldn't have done much(think of canon Katsuyu, not BD Katsuyu)?





> There's a difference between plot and character induced stupidity.  The latter is Tsunade not summoning Katsuyu, the Edo Kage playing with Hiruzen. While things like Hebi Sasuke pressuring Itachi and SM Naruto soloing Sandaime Raikage are actually believable feats. Then there is plot induced stupidity like Sasuke surviving C0.



As said before, everything is plot. Do you think Tsunade is a living breathing person with a mind of her own? No, she is nothing more then a made up character and her thoughts and her actions are done by Kishi. The actions she do is the actions Kishi wants her to do that he thought would be good for the series which is part of the plot. CIS? No that would be PIS as the people in this manga do what Kishi wants them to do which is part of the plot thus if you think something is "character induced stupidity", then it's really "plot induced stupidity".


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## Kai (Jan 3, 2014)

Tsunade has more than a fair shot at winning this. Kirin would push the favorable edge towards Sasuke in a fight against someone that would completely exhaust his reserves.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> False. Here she punches Orochi away and he only manages to stand up as she tells him what her new jutsu(to Orochi) does. As you can see here Tsunade is taking her blood and getting ready to summon Katsuyu then the other two goes to use summoning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet you failed to read the part where Kishi wished for them to have a triple summoning. It doesn't matter when or who summoned first, as they all summoned basically at the same time ; the other two
That's the point of the concept. Same with Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura. They each could have summoned at anytime, but Kishi wished for them to summon simultaneously; the other two
Surely even you could figure that out.

What does what you said have to do with the bolded? Being known as slug Princess means she summons the slug a lot. Saying Katsuyu has been summoned only for defensive properties is extremely invalid considering the situation she was in when she summoned such. Using Katsuyu as a defensive aid for pain would get her know where would it not ? Tsunade has enough common sense to know that pain was comfortably an over her fighting level that summoning Katusyu would make no difference. You also have to take to take into consideration the circumstance the village was in when Tsunade summoned the slug. It had been leveled by a gigantic ST, and Tsunades ( being a medic especially when she is needed the most) most reasonable choice  would be to use Katsuyu to heal and shield everyone, rather using Katusyu to defend only herself and fight someone a good deal superior to her. The Madara situation was a little different however. You have to understand that Tsunade had 5 Kage level ninja as back up and after awhile the need for Katusyu became fruitless. Don't ya think if all those powerful ninja couldn't even phase Madara, that summoning Katusyu would make any difference? Not only that, but the situation she was in that the specific moment is Completley different to her from her fighting Hebi Sasuke alone. The reason to her not summoning Katsuyu could have been a number of things quite frankly. But it's completely illogical to assume her train of throught will be the same battling one ninja rather battle in fine ninja with 4 Kage backup.

The thing you don't understand is that I don't assume Katsuyu is always summoned for battle purposes, rather she is summoned frequently. That would lead to her title. Especially sense both Jirayia and Oro use their summoning techniques quite often, and Tsunade is presumed to not only be a medical ninja but a battle ninja like wise.

- Pain situation is rather useless, based on the power difference between Tsunade and Pain. Summoning Katsuyu for offense would have been utterly illogical considering she would have lost her life, and the citizens she swore to protect would have listed their lives.

- Again, summoning Katsuyu against Madara Uchiha, the same Uchiha who defeated the Kage together would have been fruitless. The least she could do was keep them alive.

-  Sakura heals people because she is absolutely outclasses by her other teamates. Tsunade isn't even close to the same. The Sannin were stated to be equal, and both Oro and Jirayia admitted that they might fall in battle if they fought Tsunade. Sakura is just a joke. She could not fight on the level of Sasuke and Naruto, and was better as simply a medical ninja. You know yourself, that Tsunade and Sakura have very very different personalities and battle strategies. 

- When they got back to the battlefield they were fighting Madara Uchiha and Juubito. No one other then absolute top tiers had any place in that battle. Not to mention ninja were dying by the handful so, it comes naturally to Tsunade to heal them before taking to fight. Even Oro stayed back and simply destroyed tree branches. He wasn't on the level of Top
Tiers, neither was Sakura or Tsunade.

Tsuande simply got the name for summoning the slug frequently. That's my opinion atleast. How she choses to use it, depends on the situation( if she has teamates, if people are dying, or if she is by herself.) Did you ever stop to think yourself what situation Tsunade was in when she summoned Katusyu? She summoned it the first time due to the introduction of the Sannin relationship and 3-way deadlock. Summoned during pain invasion due to thousands dying & failed to summon it during the Madara battle, because it would have changed little. The only reason it's plot to keep Tsunade from not summoning Katsuyu is because it has 0 drawbacks. She gains nothing from not summoning Katsuyu, and summoning her brings so much help. It would honestly be an act if stupidity to not summon Katsuyu onto the battlefield at all times.  Her not thinking Katsuyu would do much depends on the situation Antdog. If you are fighting One ninja with 4 fucking Kage ninja as backup, summoning Katsuyu quickly becomes less important then by herself in a dangerous position.


Her reasons to summon Katusyu vary from situation. In this specific situation, Tsunade has no reason not to summon Katsuyu. She is alone, and in a very dangerous situation against a ninja she knows had the power to kill her Sannin equal. She will not hold back. I also personally think Tsunade has the intelligence to use Katusyu as a means of defense. After all, she has a 5 in intelligence.'


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## Bonly (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yet you failed to read the part where Kishi wished for them to have a triple summoning. It doesn't matter when or who summoned first, as they all summoned basically at the same time ; the other two
> That's the point of the concept. Same with Sasuke, Naruto, and Sakura. They each could have summoned at anytime, but Kishi wished for them to summon simultaneously; the other two
> Surely even you could figure that out.



>Says Tsunade summoned after Orochi tried to bring out Manda
>Gets shown that Tsunade is the one to start it
>Is now shown that what he said is false
>Dare say I failed to read anything when you're reading comprehension isn't showing to be so bright as you missed yet another point

 



> What does what you said have to do with the bolded? Being known as slug Princess means she summons the slug a lot.



That alone is false. Being known as that doesn't actually mean she does it alot. She could be known for it because she's the only(at the time) one who uses a slug and only used it a few times.



> Saying Katsuyu has been summoned only for defensive properties is extremely invalid considering the situation she was in when she summoned such.



I said she has been used for defense+healing bar one time. If you want to say that my claim is invalid then please show me where Katsuyu hasn't been used in such a fashion.



> Using Katsuyu as a defensive aid for pain would get her know where would it not ? Tsunade has enough common sense to know that pain was comfortably an over her fighting level that summoning Katusyu would make no difference. You also have to take to take into consideration the circumstance the village was in when Tsunade summoned the slug. It had been leveled by a gigantic ST, and Tsunades ( being a medic especially when she is needed the most) most reasonable choice  would be to use Katsuyu to heal and shield everyone, rather using Katusyu to defend only herself and fight someone a good deal superior to her.



Sadly what you said doesn't really matter. My point is that Kishi goes out his way to show that Katsuyu is best suited for defense and healing rather then attacking. You're helping my point.



> The Madara situation was a little different however. You have to understand that Tsunade had 5 Kage level ninja as back up and after awhile the need for Katusyu became fruitless. Don't ya think if all those powerful ninja couldn't even phase Madara, that summoning Katusyu would make any difference? Not only that, but the situation she was in that the specific moment is Completley different to her from her fighting Hebi Sasuke alone.



Yet again proving my previous points. 



> The reason to her not summoning Katsuyu could have been a number of things quite frankly. But it's completely illogical to assume her train of throught will be the same battling one ninja rather battle in fine ninja with 4 Kage backup.



I never said she wouldn't summon Katsuyu, please actually read and understand everything I say 



> The thing you don't understand is that I don't assume Katsuyu is always summoned for battle purposes, rather she is summoned frequently. That would lead to her title. Especially sense both Jirayia and Oro use their summoning techniques quite often, and Tsunade is presumed to not only be a medical ninja but a battle ninja like wise.



I understand that you think that as I have seen you post about Katsuyu but this is BD and in every Tsunade thread you bring her up(even when Tsunade has back up from high kage level ninja which is funny as you say that is a reason why she didn't summon Katsuyu against Madara which means you contradicted you're self) and always talk about her in an offensive manning 90 percent of the time.  



> - Pain situation is rather useless, based on the power difference between Tsunade and Pain. Summoning Katsuyu for offense would have been utterly illogical considering she would have lost her life, and the citizens she swore to protect would have listed their lives.



And proving my point some more.



> - Again, summoning Katsuyu against Madara Uchiha, the same Uchiha who defeated the Kage together would have been fruitless. The least she could do was keep them alive.



Again proving my point.



> -  Sakura heals people because she is absolutely outclasses by her other teamates. Tsunade isn't even close to the same. The Sannin were stated to be equal, and both Oro and Jirayia admitted that they might fall in battle if they fought Tsunade. Sakura is just a joke. She could not fight on the level of Sasuke and Naruto, and was better as simply a medical ninja. You know yourself, that Tsunade and Sakura have very very different personalities and battle strategies.



Sakura heals people because she's a fucking medical ninja, not because she is simply outclassed, thats her role. And again you're proving my point.



> - When they got back to the battlefield they were fighting Madara Uchiha and Juubito. No one other then absolute top tiers had any place in that battle. Not to mention ninja were dying by the handful so, it comes naturally to Tsunade to heal them before taking to fight. Even Oro stayed back and simply destroyed tree branches. He wasn't on the level of Top
> Tiers, neither was Sakura or Tsunade.



You're not really good at this.



> Tsuande simply got the name for summoning the slug frequently. That's *my opinion* atleast.



Now that's better.



> How she choses to use it, depends on the situation( if she has teamates, if people are dying, or if she is by herself.) Did you ever stop to think yourself what situation Tsunade was in when she summoned Katusyu? She summoned it the first time due to the introduction of the Sannin relationship and 3-way deadlock. Summoned during pain invasion due to thousands dying & failed to summon it during the Madara battle, because it would have changed little.



No fucking shit sherlock, of course I looked at the situations which is how I came to tell you that based on *WHAT HAS BEEN SHOWN*, Katsuyu is mainly used healing and defense bar the one time. Do you even read and understand my post?



> The only reason it's plot



Everything is plot.



> Her reasons to summon Katusyu vary from situation. In this specific situation, Tsunade has no reason not to summon Katsuyu. She is alone, and in a very dangerous situation against a ninja she knows had the power to kill her Sannin equal. She will not hold back. I also personally think Tsunade has the intelligence to use Katusyu as a means of defense. After all, she has a 5 in intelligence.'



You really do don't read my post


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## Csdabest (Jan 3, 2014)

Sasuke wins with ease. He can easily disable Tsunads movements with Chidori Senbon. Rendering her stunned long enough for the death blow


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## Thunder (Jan 3, 2014)

Classic fight right here. Anyway, to those arguing about when Tsunade would bring out Katsuyu: I wouldn't be surprised if Tsunade _did_ summon early for two main reasons:1. Tsunade was informed about Sasuke's victory over her old teammate and fellow Sannin, Orochimaru. Given this knowledge it would be foolish to think Tsunade would underestimate Sasuke here. ​2. When facing Uchiha it's advisable to bring a partner along for the purpose of dispelling illusions. Katsuyu is the only one who can fulfill this role. And  will definitely come in handy for buying some time if necessary.​Thus, I don't see genjutsu playing a major role here. Even if Sasuke tries subjugating Katsuyu in a Manda-esque fashion there's no reason why Tsunade couldn't release the slug, provided she's in close proximity. They maintain a telepathic connection with each other so if something's amiss Tsunade will sense it immediately. 

Dealing with Sasuke's lethality / versatility in short-mid range combat is going to be Tsunade's biggest problem here, I think. Katon are dealt with easily enough; Raiton variants such as    and    will successfully pressure her, though. Especially the latter if you now believe Tsunade can't regrow limbs. A recent chapter gives more validity to those who suggested this in the past, despite what we were previously told about mitotic regeneration. Perhaps someone who's more knowledge about Tsunade can clear this up.

Moving on to Sasuke's defensive measures. Plain old Sharingan perception will aid him greatly against the Sannin with perfect databook scores in both strength and taijutsu. Even a glancing blow will prove fatal if he isn't careful, so he'll do well to avoid her strikes. Oral Rebirth should grant Sasuke a second chance, but the jutsu is very chakra intensive so it can't be abused. When facing an Uzumaki / Senju depleting your chakra reserves too quickly is not the best strategy. But if Sasuke is pushed far enough he'll resort to the mighty Kirin. 

In short, both have the tools to win. It will be an interesting bout for sure.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> >Says Tsunade summoned after Orochi tried to bring out Manda
> >Gets shown that Tsunade is the one to start it
> >Is now shown that what he said is false
> >Dare say I failed to read anything when you're reading comprehension isn't showing to be so bright as you missed yet another point
> ...



Yeah, I admit that was my fault. Still doesn't change that fact that the only reason the summonings were brought out was because of the Sannin relationship and how they all were all experts at that summonings technique. You cannot say Tsunade will not summon the slug early on because she didn't summon it immediately against Oro. Even though Kishi was specifically hyping that moment up . That situation is completely different then her fighting Sasuke( who killed oro) alone. 

The Sannin are stated to be experts at the summoning technique, and each and everyone of the Sannin members use their summonings very often in battle. Jirayia and Oro summon practically every time they battle. Especially against someone as dangerous as Sasuke.

Katsuyu was used to attack Manda. Was ready to attack Oro, and was used as a meatshield to protect people from ST. Tsuande has enough common sense to use Katsuyu as a shield, especially considering she knows the mechanics of raiton variants.  

Katsuyu doesn't even have to attack in this battle rather BE a distraction, or literally he a defense for Tsunade. So I don't understand what you started arguing for in the first place. 


No but your under the impression she summons her very late or something.

Because in almost every circumstance Katsuyu CAN be effective. Madara is literally a TOP TIER ninja. Everything Katusyu can be used for is useless against Madara Uchiha. Against most ninja she is effective however. You won't ever see me argue Katusyu effective against Edo Minato, Hashirama, Madara, EMS Sasuke, and Naruto because it isn't helpful.

Then why the fuck did you even start with me ? This isn't a situation that Tsunade is common with is it not ? They have never showed Tsunade battle anyone 1 vs 1 yet, so why is it so unbelievable that Tsunade will instantly summon Katsuyu?  Especially against someone that killed her equal .


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

You're such a fence sitter Thunder  Good points though.


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## Thunder (Jan 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> You're such a fence sitter Thunder  Good points though.



Thanks Jad.

I used to side with Tsunade in this match, but she might not be able to regrow limbs like we thought.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

I don't understand how an arm is any different then all of your fatal organs? I understand the doubt about beheading, but she should easily be able to regrow limbs. Just because Madara Uchiha( should be exclusive to literally everything) cannot regrow limbs, why cannot Tsunade? They don't even posses the same healing technique, just similar. Even if she couldn't do so, she could easily grab her arm and re-attach it, even though it would he extremely inconvenient.


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## Bonly (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah, I admit that was my fault. Still doesn't change that fact that the only reason the summonings were brought out was because of the Sannin relationship and how they all were all experts at that summonings technique.



Never hinted otherwise, just pointing out the flaw.



> You cannot say Tsunade will not summon the slug early on because she didn't summon it immediately against Oro. Even though Kishi was specifically hyping that moment up . That situation is completely different then her fighting Sasuke( who killed oro) alone.



I never said Tsunade wouldn't summon Katsuyu early, I just made fun of how you talked about how Sasuke doesn't use CS1 at the start of fights, as if you were trying to say that because he didn't in his fights he won't here. Yet Tsunade hasn't been shown to summon early in a fight yet you ignore . 



> *The Sannin are stated to be experts at the summoning technique, and each and everyone of the Sannin members use their summonings very often in battle.* Jirayia and Oro summon practically every time they battle. Especially against someone as dangerous as Sasuke.



Can you show me where the bold is stated?



> Katsuyu was used to attack Manda.



Yeah, the one time like I said.



> Was ready to attack Oro,



She was ready to attack yet she was summoned for healing like I said.



> and was used as a meatshield to protect people from ST.



Which helps my point.



> Tsuande has enough common sense to use Katsuyu as a shield, especially considering she knows the mechanics of raiton variants.



Which she hasn't done. In case you couldn't catch on, I'm still just laughing at how ignore how Tsunade hasn't done such in the manga and suggest she would do it here yet when it comes to Sasuke(aka someone not named Tsunade) you was quick to point out how he doesn't use something at the start of a fight  



> Katsuyu doesn't even have to attack in this battle rather BE a distraction, or literally he a defense for Tsunade. So I don't understand what you started arguing for in the first place.




I was simply correcting you on something, you're the one who kept changing your points. I mention how Kyokan never said Sasuke would use CS1(which you said he did) and instead of ending the point there and realizing you was wrong, you went to say "if Sasuke goes CS1 then Katsuyu comes out. period". Lol just look at the first point where I simply corrected you when you said Tsunade summoned Katsuyu because Orochi tried to bring out Manda. You basically missed the point and went on with their portrayal. We wouldn't even be this far if you didn't constantly change the point when we are on another one and miss my point.




> No but your under the impression she summons her very late or something.



Not at all, you just seem to not comprehend my points sometimes 



> Because in almost every circumstance Katsuyu CAN be effective. Madara is literally a TOP TIER ninja. Everything Katusyu can be used for is useless against Madara Uchiha. Against most ninja she is effective however. You won't ever see me argue Katusyu effective against Edo Minato, Hashirama, Madara, EMS Sasuke, and Naruto because it isn't helpful.



Don't really care but it's nice that you're helping proving my point.



> Then why the fuck did you even start with me ?



You said hinted that Kyokan said Sasuke would use CS1 at the start of the fight and I should you he didn't.

You said asked if he realized about the distance and I told you that nothing in his post said otherwise.

Then I pointed out how you are, yet again being biased. Quick to point out something for a character(such as the CS1 thing) yet go on to ignore how Tsunade doesn't do something at the start yet you seem to be ok with it.

We could've ended there if your next post just agreed,agreed, and said noted about it but you kept it going and kept changing the points and not understanding some of my clear points(read top of post for some examples)



> This isn't a situation that Tsunade is common with is it not ? They have never showed Tsunade battle anyone 1 vs 1 yet, so why is it so unbelievable that Tsunade will instantly summon Katsuyu?  Especially against someone that killed her equal .



Never said it was unbelievable that she would do such.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Never hinted otherwise, just pointing out the flaw.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The difference is that Sasuke has had plenty of 1 vs 1 matches. Also he is less inclined to use curse seal as it has drawbacks unlike Katsuyu. That's why I think Katsuyu will be brought out early unlike Curse seal.  Tsunade hasn't been put in the situation were she immediately has the chance of death yet. With Sasuke that chance will be presented.

You know they are experts of the summoning technique. And both Jirayia and Oro are basically animals at this point in time. It's obvious that Tsunade is very familiar with her slug and uses it frequently. Id rather not waste my time fetching a scan for a such a useless point anyway.

What was she to attack? Madara was dead gone. Even if he wasn't gone your acting like the slug is going to solo Madara.

BECAUSE TSUNADE HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN THEN CHANCE TO DO SO. Against Oro they summoned at the same time, so summonings basically fought summonings. Tsunade had knowledge of Oros abilities, and knew she could handle him herself. We've already talked about the Madara situation.

Sasuke won't be quick to use Curse mark because it has drawbacks, Katusyu does not.

Typical of you to sit there and hate on my posts and not even understand them yourself.  Kyokan said that because Sasuke could blitz Deidara without Cs1 he should be able to blitz Tsunade with it. We previously had a disscussion in a different thread regarding Tsunade being able to tank his attacks with Katusyu. He's basically saying he can blitz her before she can summon.


I MENTIONED THE DISTANCE because Kyokan stated that because I thought Tsunade had a 4.5 in speed( just like Deidara) that Sasuke could Blitz her to start with. Or atleast that's what I thought he said. And he seemed to agree with it, as his next post didn't even brush what I said as incorrect.


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## fior fior (Jan 3, 2014)

Hebi Sasuke takes this relatively easily.

Snake summons deal with, or at least delay, Katsuyu; in the meantime, Sasuke can cut Tsunade down using Raiton variants. His Chidori Senbon and 'Sharp Spear', not to mention large-scale Katon jutsu, make it easy for him to put Tsunade down before he is in her effective range. Tsunade's regeneration takes time; Sasuke will use the time she is immobilized to decapitate her.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Thunder (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> I don't understand how an arm is any different then all of your fatal organs? I understand the doubt about beheading, but she should easily be able to regrow limbs. Just because Madara Uchiha( should be exclusive to literally everything) cannot regrow limbs, why cannot Tsunade? They don't even posses the same healing technique, just similar. Even if she couldn't do so, she could easily grab her arm and re-attach it, even though it would he extremely inconvenient.



Tsunade's healing factor was implied (read: implied) to the same one Hashirama used, except her's requires a seal. Current Madara has the same healing ability his old rival possessed, but still opted to steal poor Zetsu's arm (man this guy never gets break) instead of merely regrowing it. And I'm pretty sure Madara also sustained some serious internal injuries too. He got smacked around by the bijū.

Maybe Tsunade's healing is better than Hashirama's? Or perhaps Madara doesn't have the same skill in that particular area as Hashirama? 

Neither explanation sits right with me to be honest, so I'm waiting for other opinions.


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## fior fior (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:
			
		

> your acting like the slug is going to solo Madara.


Well, of course. Why would this not be feasible?


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## Ersa (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> - Didn't Start with Chidori against Deidara
> - I'll give you Itachi, however 30m is way to far for Tsunade not to capitalize on.
> 
> It heavily boosted Sakuras speed, and Tsunade performs better and after with the seal activated. RUSTY TSUNADE without Byakago activated blitzed someone who was .5 slower then Deidara. A current Tsunade with Byakago activated is much much faster. It doesn't matter if it was her enemy or not. Shizune had here guard up and said she wouldn't let Tsunade past. Then got blitzed. That's all.
> ...


He more or less did, once sword slash was his opening move followed by Chidori Senbon.

I severely doubt Tsunade's first move is to summon Katsuyu, she might bring it out early but it'll most likely be after a CQC bout which could end badly. She was willing to engage Madara Uchiha in CQC, why the hell should his weaker counterpart be any different?

It boosted Sakura's strength, as we saw her punch with and without her Yin Seal. Kishi's method of showing us the difference. Her speed is simply her own speed. Tsunade didn't get any faster from her Seal either. She got blitzed from a short distance, you do realize distance can make all the difference yeah? And Deidara >> Shizune.

Or Kishi forgot about the book just like he forgot about Katsuyu. You're grasping at straws. We can agree to disagree on her durability, I don't think Sasuke will ever let Tsunade summon Katsuyu and cloak herself in slugs. It's not only a completely OOC move but she'll never get the chance.

Obito's shruiken would wreck Tsunade if it hit her, she's not impervious to blades. And Kamui makes them go pretty damn fast.

And so? Manda wasn't concentrated on her and she didn't have someone vastly superior to her in speed chasing her down.

*Also for your response to Bonly*;
Stop twisting my words please, I'm suggesting Sasuke can near-blitz her in CQC and she will enter CQC because it's her damn forte and she did against Madara who is eons stronger then Sasuke so the "Sasuke is too dangerous, must summon my slug" argument is bullshit. She's not instantly going to go for Katsuyu, she might after the first CQC bout but that could end her.

Chidori Eisou will slice her limbs off and as Thunder pointed out, new evidence might suggest she can't regenerate limbs considering Madara has Hashirama's healing powers which was stated to be the same as Byakogou. And it takes a while to regenerate a head too 

If Sasuke slices off her head, he can use the time it will take for her to regen to slice off other parts of her body or have Manda eat her.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Tsunade's healing factor was implied (read: implied) to the same one Hashirama used, except her's requires a seal. Current Madara has the same healing ability his old rival possessed, but still opted to steal poor Zetsu's arm (man this guy never gets break) instead of merely regrowing it. And I'm pretty sure Madara also sustained some serious internal injuries too. He got smacked around by the bijū.
> 
> Maybe Tsunade's healing is better than Hashirama's? Or perhaps Madara doesn't have the same skill in that particular area as Hashirama?
> 
> Neither explanation sits right with me to be honest, so I'm waiting for other opinions.



Plus I've been saying for years that accelerated cell growth wouldn't heal amputated limbs (common sense.) She won't bleed out, but she won't be getting more than a stump back either.​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Plus I've been saying for years that accelerated cell growth wouldn't heal amputated limbs (common sense.) She won't bleed out, but she won't be getting more than a stump back either.​



Madara has Sage Chakara to boot as well. And in this instance, in this scene, in this chapter, in this particular time, Kishimoto showed the healed injuries of Madara by ALSO showing the blood disappearing, as well as the aura [1][2]. NOT only was there no aura on Madara's head, the blood did not disappear on his forehead, like all the other places Madara healed in that instance. This is topped off by the fact Kishimoto decided to show Madara covering his head with his arms [3]. Kishimoto has had a plethora of moments where he could have shown the head being healed, but he has continuously avoided it. Don't you guys think if healing the head is as easy as you guys make it out to be, he'd have shown it by now? Hell it looks like he covered Hashirama's head also.​


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## Bonly (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> The difference is that Sasuke has had plenty of 1 vs 1 matches. Also he is less inclined to use curse seal as it has drawbacks unlike Katsuyu. That's why I think Katsuyu will be brought out early unlike Curse seal.  *Tsunade hasn't been put in the situation were she immediately has the chance of death yet*. With Sasuke that chance will be presented.



Yeah I'm just going to leave this alone.



> You know they are experts of the summoning technique. And both Jirayia and Oro are basically animals at this point in time. It's obvious that Tsunade is very familiar with her slug and uses it frequently. Id rather not waste my time fetching a scan for a such a useless point anyway.



Concession accepted.



> What was she to attack? Madara was dead gone. Even if he wasn't gone your acting like the slug is going to solo Madara.



Since you still never multi quote(after god knows how long you've been on at least two different forums) I don't know what you're referring to as you skipped some parts.



> BECAUSE TSUNADE HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN THEN CHANCE TO DO SO. Against Oro they summoned at the same time, so summonings basically fought summonings. Tsunade had knowledge of Oros abilities, and knew she could handle him herself. We've already talked about the Madara situation.



Tsunade has had a chance to do such, she just have never done it like Sasuke with CS1. He could have done it in his fights from the start but he didn't.



> Sasuke won't be quick to use Curse mark because it has drawbacks, Katusyu does not.



As soon as Jugo attacked Sasuke he went to use his Curse seal quick even though he knew the draw back. So he might.



> Typical of you to sit there and hate on my posts and not even understand them yourself.



Sadly I understand you're post not matter how bad they are and I never hate, I'm just happy to point out how you're quick to point out flaws with every character yet look the other way for Tsunade. Do I even need to bring up how you talked about Asuma being perfectly fine when he got blitz by Kakuzu when in fact he was injuried badly? . But don't worry, I do this with the other horseman(as well as certain other posters) when they slip up as well 



> Kyokan said that because Sasuke could blitz Deidara without Cs1 he should be able to blitz Tsunade with it. We previously had a disscussion in a different thread regarding Tsunade being able to tank his attacks with Katusyu. He's basically saying he can blitz her before she can summon.



What thread is this because if it's the Hebi Sasuke being Kage level thread I'm not seeing it although it appears that you aren't playing fair here.



> I MENTIONED THE DISTANCE because Kyokan stated that because I thought Tsunade had a 4.5 in speed( just like Deidara) that Sasuke could Blitz her to start with. Or atleast that's what I thought he said. And he seemed to agree with it, as his next post didn't even brush what I said as incorrect.



No he just said that he could blitz her, I don't recall him saying at the start (or any time in the match).


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> He more or less did, once sword slash was his opening move followed by Chidori Senbon.
> 
> I severely doubt Tsunade's first move is to summon Katsuyu, she might bring it out early but it'll most likely be after a CQC bout which could end badly. She was willing to engage Madara Uchiha in CQC, why the hell should his weaker counterpart be any different?
> 
> ...



If his opening move against Tsunade is a sword slash, then he already considering himself a goner.

Thunder pointed out some great points on too why she summons Katsuyu immediately.
 - She has knowledge that Sasuke solod someone who is her equal.
 - Katsuyu is the only method to break Genjustu, so it should be brought out immediately.

She we willing to engage Madara CQC with backup from 4 Kage. She has knowledge on the mechanics of his Chidori variants and how deadly they can be, she opts for Katsuyu right off the bat.

We both know Sakura was absolute shit speed before she pulled that seal out. Once it was out, she was able to catch up with a Juubi clone she flung at high speeds ; Curse seal
Not to mention Tsunades speed increases  every single time she takes that seal out. By feats, yes by feats

Sasuke was fairly close to deidara nonetheless. You know what else can make the difference ? Tsunade being rusty, not using Byakago, and actually succeeding I'm blitzing Shizune unlike Sasuke. True dat, but only by .5.

OR Kishi remembered them both, and decided to make Katsuyu survive that. I mean, Katsuyu survives everything else. It's even in the damn wiki bro.  If we want to go by actual factual evidence, then I'm Completley fine with the book having massive durabilty. Doesn't Change a damn thing in this thread. 

He won't have the chance to stop here at 30 damn meters. 

We have evidence of this where? Seems to me like everything can easily slice through Gyukis tails.

Don't kid yourself. Manda tried to dash at Bunta as fast as he could. Tsunade covered almost double the distance while carrying something that is hundreds of times her own body weight. And did this while rusty. She's far faster then Manda. End of disscussion.


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## Thunder (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Plus I've been saying for years that accelerated cell growth wouldn't heal amputated limbs (common sense.) She won't bleed out, but she won't be getting more than a stump back either.​



I do remember you making that argument before, yes. Well, you get props from me.


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## LostSelf (Jan 3, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke was blitzing someone an entire tier more reflexive than Tsunade in the databooks. Tsunade's going to lose her head pretty quickly via Chidori blade, with or without genjutsu playing a role.
> 
> 
> ​



That wasn't a blitz. That's Deidara distracted because Tobi said not to deactivate the bombs near him. 

That's Deidara still reacting to Sasuke's attack even taking advantage of Deidara's distraction.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> That wasn't a blitz. That's Deidara distracted because Tobi said not to deactivate the bombs near him.
> 
> That's Deidara still reacting to Sasuke's attack even taking advantage of Deidara's distraction.



Yeah I noticed that. I dunno why everyone says it's a blitz.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> That wasn't a blitz. That's Deidara distracted because Tobi said not to deactivate the bombs near him.
> 
> That's Deidara still reacting to Sasuke's attack even taking advantage of Deidara's distraction.



That's Deidara reacting after Obito gave him a warning. The argument that Deidara was focused on Tobi is speculative, because there's nothing clearly showing that. 

Regardless, it's rendered moot by Sasuke and Obito being in the same line of sight, and Deidara thereafter stating that Sasuke was way too fast and that he needed to retreat to the air immediately.​


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## Ersa (Jan 3, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> If his opening move against Tsunade is a sword slash, then he already considering himself a goner.
> 
> Thunder pointed out some great points on too why she summons Katsuyu immediately.
> - She has knowledge that Sasuke solod someone who is her equal.
> ...


He knows of Tsunade's medical ability, I doubt he isn't going to try Chidori Eisou or something more powerful then a sword slash. Also he wanted Deidara, alive. 

Tsunade engages in CQC every time she fights, it's her forte. She'll no doubt bring out Katsuyu early but it's OOC for her to bring it out as soon as a match starts.

Not really, she was slower then EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto movement speed but not to a great extent. It's likely she started using some more amped Shunshin after the Yin Seal, at best I'll say Tsunade's Shunshin improves with her Yin Seal.

Sasuke was not almost in Deidara's face. Um, you do realize not all 4's are equal? Shizune could very well be at the lower end of people classified as having 4 speed. And judging by her average speed feats I'd say she's close to 3.5. Deidara has that 0.5 advantage on top of better feats. So almost blitzing Deidara at close-medium distance is far more impressive then blitzing Shizune at extremely close range.

Wiki is trash and you know this. It says Base Jiraiya is stronger then the Akatsuki.

He'll close the distance, she'll go for a short bout of CQC to test the waters I feel as it's pretty IC. Every attack that cut the Hachibi's limbs would also decimate Tsunade. Chidori Eisou, Kamui shruiken, Nukite are not attacks Tsunade wants to tank.

Manda was distracted. He also didn't have a Kage level opponent watching his back.


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## Mercurial (Jan 3, 2014)

Sasuke's speed + Sharingan precog and good CQC skill pretty much ensure that Tsunde won't lay a hit on him with her smashy smashy style, Sasuke will cut her head off with Raiton kenjutsu.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

I usually favor Hebi with knowledge on her regeration, because he can hang back and lop off limbs with eiso, and he's smart enough to do that.

I favor Tsunade without knowledge, or manga knowledge, because he's pre-disposed to stab people in the chest with eiso and chidori and call it a day, and the former gets him ambushed like Madara was, while the latter gets him countered like Ei did when Sasuke stabbed him in the chest with chidori.  The third thing he likes to do is sword rush, and if Danzo without sharingan can make that a mutual blow, I'm sure War feats Tsunade can.  She might need Katsuya to retrieve some parts of her, but this is also where the "head lopping,", camp will call it mutual death.

In summons, slug is supposed to counter snake, so I give it to her in a war of bosses.  But if you think there's enough of him left to Oral Rebirth after a shot from her, then he might regenerate from her hit and then play defencive, where he can win as long as he doesn't tucker out.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> I just gave you three examples. Give me an example of Tsunade starting off with Katsuyu.  She'll enter CQC first and Sauce has his blitzing opportunity then.
> 
> Byakugo doesn't boost speed, Madara didn't comment on any speed boost nor was it stated. Rusty Tsunade blitzing someone who is not as fast as Deidara, from close range and not an enemy. Hardly applicable to a real fight.
> 
> ...



She summoned Katsuya as soon as she found out Pain was in the village, and she summoned Katsuya as soon as she began fighting Orochimaru in proper, and lost her blood phobia.  She also summoned Katsuya immediately upon arriving at Alliance vs Madara and Tobi and told Sakura to do the same.  Not that I think she starts all her battles by summoning, but there you go.


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## genii96 (Jan 3, 2014)

Tsunade was able to land a blow on ems madara,and move to block his fireball so quickly that mei couldnt even form handsigns,she took on 5 v3 susanoos at once ad smashed one to the ground with a punch. Hebi sasuke gets beaten.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Expect to see Godaime Tsunade, FlamingRain, and Matto-Sama to be the ones to make a good case for Tsunade winnings aka the other three horseman



Damn straight 

-------


There will no blitzing going on in this match. Even if Hebi Sasuke was able to out-speed _Deidara_, I don't understand why that should equate to him being able to blitz Tsunade, who is canonically and statistically a lot better than him in CQC. The Godaime is swift enough to attack in unison with Base Ei, to intercept Manda with a giant-sword while he's mid-bite, and to successfully react to and block Madara's katon before any of her Kage peers could do so. Furthermore, she has a 5 in taijutsu in the databook - she's a full _1.5_ ahead of Deidara, so there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to fare better than him if Sasuke rushes into CQC.

I should add, Tsunade has _registered the movements_ of a V1 Ei and KCM Naruto while they competed in battle before - she even went as far as to attempt to _intercept_ the Raikage before he could touch Naruto. Evidently, it's not like Sasuke is going to be moving so fast that Tsunade can't even see his movements. Tsunade will have more difficulty landing hits than she will defending against Sasuke's.

The idea of Sasuke effortlessly chopping off Tsunade's limbs is pretty ridiculous. There will probably be instances where she needs to block to protect her head or she fails to fully evade attacks and gets stabbed or grazed with a sword as a result, but she would have to be truly careless to have a limb removed. Though, Sasuke isn't as skilled as Tsunade is in CQC. Actually, at this point there was a 1.5 gap between the two as far as taijutsu skill goes, so there will likewise probably be instances where Sasuke is forced to block or jump into the air. Granted the sharingan will certainly help to alleviate the skill difference, but evasion isn't always going to be an option against her higher proficiency in CQC. If he jumps into the air or tries to block, he's as good as dead. His regeneration is pitiful when compared to Orochimaru's, it won't save him.

With only IC knowledge on Tsunade, Hebi Sasuke knows little of her abilities. He's aware that she's a great healer, but he has never seen her fight and doesn't know the specifics on any of her jutsu. On the other hand, Tsunade knows the powers that the sharingan possesses, she knows of his raiton-based jutsu, his curse-mark seal and snake summons. Furthermore, she has ninja files on him to keep her well-informed on any other miscellaneous abilities he has, like taijutsu, stamina etc.

I highly doubt the Princess will be caught in eye genjutsu, she battled Madara for hours on end without being caught. Even whenever she landed strikes on him in CQC, she didn't appear to be looking anywhere near his eyes [1] Even if she is caught, she has sufficient intelligence and chakra control to break herself out. I don't recall this Sasuke having any particular mastery over illusions.

Sasuke's katon attacks are ineffective too so long as Tsunade can evade, and her resilience and Byakugou allows her to push through any damage she receives. 

Katsuyu may play a great role as well. Besides utterly dwarfing any summons Sasuke has in size (and power), the connection she has to Tsunade's Byakugou seal allows chakra to be effortlessly channelled through her. If Tsunade happens to be trapped in an illusion, Katsuyu can quickly break her free of its effects (assuming Tsunade can't just break out herself). We should also factor in _Daibunretsu_, which if used by a large Katsuyu eg. one tenth of her full body, could swarm and overwhelm Sasuke. Even if her attacks are too slow or inaccurate to hit Sasuke, they serve as excellent distractions to lead him into a position where it would be impossible to evade Tsunade's attacks.

However, what I feel ultimately sways this match in Sasuke's favour is the curse mark. Tsunade is going to struggle in CQC as it is: Sasuke has greater speed, and a sharingan to predict her strikes. She must rely on her limited evasive skills, regeneration, and super strength to outclass him - which is feasible. However, when Sasuke gets a _further_ speed increase from his curse seal, I think things will become too much for Tsunade to handle. CQC will simply not be an option if this happens, and landing hits just wont be possible.

_However_, given Sasuke's lack of knowledge on Tsunade, I highly doubt he will activate the curse seal from the outset of the match. Furthermore, Sasuke's lack of knowledge on Tsunade's super strength spells trouble for him at the match's starting point. The minute Sasuke rushes into close combat with a shunshin Tsunade's anticipatory skills should give her ample time to tear the earth in two and leave him _defenceless_. One strike and he's dead. 

Also, there is a possibility that Tsunade will conjure up a pretty large Katsuyu. For some reason she usually just sticks to a regular boss sized version (which is about 1/20th of her full size), but if she finds herself on the verge of death and has enough chakra remaining, there is no logical reason why she wouldn't pull out a huge Katsuyu as a last resort. Massive acid blasts would be tough to dodge, especially if Sasuke has used up a lot of chakra by that point in the match.

This match would be a close one no doubt, but with a much more powerful boss summon the match goes in favour of Tsunade. To reiterate what I said before, even if Sasuke activates CS2, has his three tomoe sharingan activated, and seriously injures Tsunade, she requires only _a tap_ to bring out Katsuyu, and with enough chakra the slug can reach enormous heights. 

Tsunade wins (and sorry for the thesis ).​​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Just wanted to point this out, but there is not score in the databook for Kenjutsu, only Taijutsu. So while Tsunade is better then Sasuke in Taijutsu, he has that area under wraps with better speed, Sharingan, and I have to say, better Kenjutsu skill then Tsunade's Taijutsu that has been shown in the manga. Considering  he has two ninjutsu techniques that play off his Katana; Chidori Eiso and Nagashi. 

I mean Sasuke was able to block an attack from Mifune, who is known for his quick draw technique and fast speeds. Not only that, but Sasuke was for a bit, was blocking and keeping eye on Bee's seven swords technique due to his Sharingan. I have a hard time seeing Tsunade pressuring him in Taijutsu with these feats of his.

Also anyone forgetting his Shuriken spray technique? Seems like an excellent technique to create a gap in close quarters with Tsunade if he feels pressured [1].

Also Godaime Tsunade, Sasuke was able to trick Danzou with his illusions, not once, but twice. One with Itachi appearing, and the other tricking him into thinking he had an extra Sharingan eye to use Izanagi. So I doubt she can _just break out of it_ with 5 intelligence. A medic and genjutsu user, C, was genjutsu'd also. Didn't he have a genjutsu battle with Itachi? Seems pretty impressive resume in Genjutsu.



> Even if her attacks are too slow or inaccurate to hit Sasuke, they serve as excellent distractions to lead him into a position where it would be impossible to evade Tsunade's attacks.



So pretty much Katsuya can always put Sasuke in position were Tsunade can always beat Sasuke? Seems like a really bold statement, even for you, don't you think?



> Tsunade's anticipatory skills



Against higher levels of opponents (at least around Hebi Sasuke), can you reference me something similar to her anticipating attacks? Perhaps one were she seems to counter in the same scene?



> but if she finds herself on the verge of death and has enough chakra remaining, there is no logical reason why she wouldn't pull out a huge Katsuyu as a last resort.



I'm guessing if Tsunade is on the verge of death, she didn't have enough to regenerate. So what makes you think she will pull out a giant summon like your stating?

Tsunade needed the help of a *Kyuubi* powered Sakura to summon 1/10th of Katsuya by the way.



> Sasuke's katon attacks are ineffective too so long as Tsunade can evade, and her resilience and Byakugou allows her to push through any damage she receives.



If Hebu Sasuke hit Tsunade with flames, and she just "push through" it,  she would be ash according to the databooks. At least take into the account that she will be on fire. If she is on fire, she can't see because of the bright roaring flames around her entire body (face), meaning Hebi Sasuke can capitalize.

Also like I said in my previous post:


Jad said:


> Madara has Sage Chakara to boot as well. And in this instance, in this scene, in this chapter, in this particular time, Kishimoto showed the healed injuries of Madara by ALSO showing the blood disappearing, as well as the aura [1][2]. NOT only was there no aura on Madara's head, the blood did not disappear on his forehead, like all the other places Madara healed in that instance. This is topped off by the fact Kishimoto decided to show Madara covering his head with his arms [3]. Kishimoto has had a plethora of moments where he could have shown the head being healed, but he has continuously avoided it. Don't you guys think if healing the head is as easy as you guys make it out to be, he'd have shown it by now? Hell it looks like he covered Hashirama's head also.​



​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> Thanks Jad.
> 
> I used to side with Tsunade in this match, but she might not be able to regrow limbs like we thought.



I think that regeneration at least allows you to stick you arm back on your socket and have it instantly re-attach.  Madara did that, and you could say that was because it was a Zetsu limb, but Tsunade managed to put her torso back on her legs with just regular medical jutsu and seems okay, so she could probably pull a Madara.  If you think Katsuya is out, she can always divide up and ferry limbs back to her master, but that seems more like something Orochimaru would do.  Bonus points to her if she rips off Sasuke's arm as a replacement and uses his Uchiha dna to awaken new powers.


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 3, 2014)

Any form of Sasuke from Hebi on is a very bad match up for Tsunade. Chidori Nagashi, Sharingan and Kenjutsu basically nullify any Taijutsu advantage. No matter how much people try to sugar coat her speed, it's not even close to being on the same level as Deidara. 

Oh, and so much for intercepting the Raikage.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> Just wanted to point this out, but there is not score in the databook for Kenjutsu, only Taijutsu. So while Tsunade is better then Sasuke in Taijutsu, he has that area under wraps with better speed, Sharingan, and I have to say, better Kenjutsu skill then Tsunade's Taijutsu that has been shown in the manga. Considering  he has two ninjutsu techniques that play off his Katana; Chidori Eiso and Nagashi.



Given that the manga considers other sword/weapon-based physical strikes to be variants of taijutsu - such as Gamabunta's _Gamadosuzan_ Kimimaro's _Tsubaki no Mai_  (and in fact any of Kimimaro's jutsu - they're all considered taijutsu) why should Sasuke be exempt? 



> Also anyone forgetting his Shuriken spray technique? Seems like an excellent technique to create a gap in close quarters with Tsunade if he feels pressured [1].



_Shuriken_? _Shuriken_ are going to slow Tsunade down? Elaborate. Sasuke was standing still when he threw all those weapons too, its a lot harder to have such aim and fluency in throwing speed whenever you're being chased around by an S Rank opponent. No gap is going to be created with such a low level technique, Sasuke would be wasting his time if he tried that.



> Also Godaime Tsunade, Sasuke was able to trick Danzou with his illusions, not once, but twice. One with Itachi appearing, and the other tricking him into thinking he had an extra Sharingan eye to use Izanagi. So I doubt she can _just break out of it_ with 5 intelligence. A medic and genjutsu user, C, was genjutsu'd also. Didn't he have a genjutsu battle with Itachi? Seems pretty impressive resume in Genjutsu.



Yes, but we aren't talking about that Sasuke, who was a lot stronger than the one we're discussing in this debate. Prior to his fight with Danzou/the Gokage I don't recall Sasuke showing any great prowess with genjutsu. He spent his entire fight with Itachi trying to break out of illusions, not put Itachi into them (iirc).



> So pretty much Katsuya can always put Sasuke in position were Tsunade can always beat Sasuke? Seems like a really bold statement, even for you, don't you think?



Nope.



> Against higher levels of opponents (at least around Hebi Sasuke), can you reference me something similar to her anticipating attacks? Perhaps one were she seems to counter in the same scene?



Sakura did it against Sasori. Tsunade is a better version of Sakura. Tsunade should thus have a solid ability to predict attacks. If Sasuke attacks with a linear shunshin and sword slash its not a high level taijutsu manoeuvre, so its perfectly within Tsunade's margin of predictability.   

And no, I don't have any examples. Fortunately, I can read between the lines.




> I'm guessing if Tsunade is on the verge of death, she didn't have enough to regenerate. So what makes you think she will pull out a giant summon like your stating?



Or maybe she just knows her regeneration alone won't be enough to sustain her? In that case, she would have to make last resorts or else she runs out of chakra and faints.



> Tsunade needed the help of a *Kyuubi* powered Sakura to summon 1/10th of Katsuya by the way.



Tsunade needed Sakura's help to _transmit chakra_ through 1/10th of Katsuyu. Sakura may have aided her with the summoning itself but that's no reason to assert that Tsunade is incapable of doing it alone. She has massive chakra reserves, and summoning regular boss-sized summons, who are about half the size of that which she summoned with Sakura, costs her barely any chakra at all.



> If Hebu Sasuke hit Tsunade with flames, and she just "push through" it,  she would be ash according to the databooks. At least take into the account that she will be on fire. If she is on fire, she can't see because of the bright roaring flames around her entire body (face), meaning Hebi Sasuke can capitalize.



Yeah, sorry but I can't be bothered arguing with the Tsunade can't recover from flames argument with you today. She can dodge his katon techniques - that is enough.


Also, this is the third time in just over a month you've raised this " Madara's head still has blood on " argument with me. I'm getting bored, Jad. Copying and pasting what I said the last time:



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> I've had this argument with you before. Regeneration heals wounds, it doesn't magically make blood from wounds that have already been bleeding disappear. When Tsunade regenerates blood doesn't always disappear [1] Maybe it does sometimes, but its just an insignificant art inconsistency. You're reading way too much into this. Madara could obviously heal a flesh wound on his head, its just under-rating him to say otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Godaime - read the underlined part in my post when it came to healing. I underlined it for a reason. I tried to emphasis that point for a reason. It makes what you are trying to point out meaningless. I will get to the rest of your post after, I am tired.



Jad said:


> Madara has Sage Chakara to boot as well. And in this instance, in this scene, in this chapter, in this particular time, Kishimoto showed the healed injuries of Madara by ALSO showing the blood disappearing, as well as the aura [1][2]. NOT only was there no aura on Madara's head, the blood did not disappear on his forehead, like all the other places Madara healed in that instance. This is topped off by the fact Kishimoto decided to show Madara covering his head with his arms [3]. Kishimoto has had a plethora of moments where he could have shown the head being healed, but he has continuously avoided it. Don't you guys think if healing the head is as easy as you guys make it out to be, he'd have shown it by now? Hell it looks like he covered Hashirama's head also.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

Why would we focus on one particular instance, and ignore every other instance? That doesn't make your argument any more valid.​​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 3, 2014)

Fighting unrestricted Hebi Sasuke means fighting Sasuke and then fighting Orochimaru if Sasuke was beaten. An argument can be made for Tsunade beating that Sasuke(mainly due to lack of confirmed knowledge in my opinion). But Tsunade ain't beating Sasuke _and_ Orochimaru.

I consider Sasuke by himself to be slightly above Tsunade combat-wise if Manda or Aoda are available. But Sauce also is a bad matchup for her due to very potent ranged offense and ability to easily escape CQC/dodge Tsunade's attacks. Sasuke dodged V2 B(while weakened) and later A without Cursed Seal boosts. If he doesn't let his guard down and/or plays it smart he wouldn't be hit here.


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Why would we focus on one particular instance, and ignore every other instance? That doesn't make your argument any more valid.​​



Think about it. Kishimoto puts pen to paper on the day he draws Madara in that panel. The same day he draws the aura around Madara. The same day Kishimoto erases the existence of blood on Madara. The same day Kishimoto leaves the pool of blood on Madara's forhead. The same day he showed Madara's healed with blood disappeared, is the same day he showed blood not disappeared on his forehead. 

What does that say? Art inconsistency because he magically forgot to erase the blood on his forehead like he did with all his other body parts? The same day he drew those panels in that chapter.

Kishimoto on that day, pen to paper, showed blood not on his body, and blood on his head, when he drew Madara being healed. Same page, same day, same pen, same ink, same mindset.

Do you get why your points are meaningless in the face of this chapter (revelation)?​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> Think about it. Kishimoto puts pen to paper on the day he draws Madara in that panel. The same day he draws the aura around Madara. The same day Kishimoto erases the existence of blood on Madara. The same day Kishimoto leaves the pool of blood on Madara's forhead. The same day he showed Madara's healed with blood disappeared, is the same day he showed blood not disappeared on his forehead.
> 
> What does that say? Art inconsistency because he magically forgot to erase the blood on his forehead like he did with all his other body parts? The same day he drew those panels in that chapter.
> 
> ...



No such revelation has happened as of yet, but 'll be _sure_ to let you know when it does

For now, I maintain that this is just an art inconsistency. In the same way that there's sometimes blood on Tsunade's tits but not on her mouth, or that there's blood on her cheek one minute and none on it the next. There is logically _no feasible reason_ why Madara could not regenerate a _flesh wound_, no matter where it is. You're trying to make something out of nothing.​​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Art inconsistency? Great, seems like the go-to statement for most posters. Art inconsistency because the blood did not disappear on his forehead, or because the blood disappeared from his body?

Because Kishimoto continued to show blood on his forehead and blood not on his body through out the chapter, and the next chapter after that. Seems like one drawn out art inconsistency...Is that what your sticking with...​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

]

Jad said:


> Art inconsistency? Great, seems like the go-to statement for most posters. Art inconsistency because the blood did not disappear on his forehead, or because the blood disappeared from his body?
> 
> Because Kishimoto continued to show blood on his forehead and blood not on his body through out the chapter, and the next chapter after that. Seems like one drawn out art inconsistency...Is that what your sticking with...​



Yes, that is what I'm sticking with.​​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yes, that is what I'm sticking with.​​



So everything that breaks your argument is an art inconsistency? This isn't the first time you've thrown art inconsistency in my face before...

You know what? You got me with the Genjutsu part of your post. I was wrong, he had EMS at that time when he was up against Danzou and C.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

You're trying to argue that Madara can't heal a flesh wound, you can't blame me for being unreasonable ​​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> You're trying to argue that Madara can't heal a flesh wound, you can't blame me for being unreasonable ​​



Then that just means the area of the head is vulnerable, because it doesn't seem that the _regenerative technique_ works there. As I have provided evidence. You can throw all the emotocons you want at me, doesn't change what I showed you. You can try and make it seems like the most dumbest point, doesn't change what I showed you.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

When you can apply logic to what you're showing me, maybe then I'll consider it as anything more than an inconsistency. The skin on the head is just skin, the same as anywhere else. If he can regenerate a bone or an organ, then its canon that he can regen a cut.

Introducing something you don't understand to a debate and using it as the crux of your argument isn't exactly a sure fire way to win people over, Jad. Actually, it just looks like you're clutching at straws.​​


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jan 3, 2014)

Cordelia said:


> One of the earliest thread match-ups that I created in the Battledome. Would like to see how the folks' opinions changed since then.*Distance:* 30 meters
> 
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> 
> ...



Tsunade should win.

People should stop using the Databook statistics so heavily - they don't give an accurate picture of what a fighter can really do in ocombat. For example, Hebi Sasuke and Deidara both had a shared speed stat of 4.5, yet Sasuke nearly blitzed Deidara not once but twice, even forcing the latter to use explosives to create distance between the two and remarking that the Uchiha's movements were 'too fast' to handle. According to the Databooks, Current Tsunade should have a speed stat of 3.5, which is above-average or so, and should leave her a tier below Hebi Sasuke and Deidara in terms of speed. A rusty Tsunade, as in Part I, should obviously be slower, much slower even.

Of course, that didn't stop her from blitzing Shizune and knocking the girl out with one touch. Shizune has a 4 or so in speed, which only puts her half-a-tier below Hebi Sasuke and Deidara in speed (numerically, at least) and therefore not far slower than either of them. Of course, that didn't stop Tsunade from blitzing not just Shizune, but even her fellow Sannin Orochimaru - who, by the way, also has a 4.5 in terms of speed - just like Sasuke and Deidara. And she did all this in a rusty state, I may add.

Current Tsunade was perfectly capable of launching attacks in tandem with all of the other Kage (including a flying, lightened full speed Yondaime Raikage), even seemingly being able to outspeed Mei's Suitons when it came to intercepting and blocking Madara's Katon: Ryuka no Jutsu, and that's some Mifune-level shit right there. Tsunade even managed to launch a counterattack against Madara's Susano'o clones, the same clones that overwhelmed both Gaara and Mei in CQC, and were pinning Ei down, too.

Tsunade also outsped Jiraiya and Gamabunta when it came to reacting to and countering Manda's assault, in spite of coming from a greater distance, and Jiraiya too has a 4.5 in terms of speed, just like Hebi Sasuke and Deidara do. So it's pretty obvious that Tsunade's speed score in the Databook is not a representation of her actual combat speed, and like many other Databook scores, is dubious at best. So let's not take the Databook scores at face value, okay? They really don't make all that much sense.

In any case, Sasuke isn't blitzing Tsunade any time soon, and can't evade her attacks forever either. Sasuke might be faster than Tsunade, but not by much, if her performance against Madara, Orochimaru and even Shizune (who, according to the Databooks that the Uchiha fans so love, isn't much slower than this Sasuke or Deidara) are any indication. The fact that Tsunade's strength has an enormous reach doesn't help either. It can definitely cut into Sasuke's speed advantage a great deal, if used properly.

Even if Tsunade has problems hitting Sasuke, she can simply create mini-earthquakes by relying on the sheer power and impact of her chakra-enhanced blows to the floor, either knocking Sasuke away or forcing him into the air, where his speed advantage over Tsunade completely disappears and the Hokage can exploit this new disadvantage by leaping right at him in the air and landing a powerful blow he won't be blocking without dying in the process. I'm sorry, but Sasuke's durability really isn't all that great.

CS2 Sasuke may have survived Deidara's C2, but C2 is absolutely nowhere near Tsunade's immensely powerful chakra-enhanced strikes in terms of might. Keep in mind that Juugo, also using the CS2 form, was swiftly knocked out by one of Ei's super-speed punches, and that Ei still required Onoki making his fist much heavier and his body much lighter (and thus making his punch far, far more powerful than normal) just in order to match Tsunade's demonstrated level of strength against Madara's Susano'o. 

Oh, and Ei also amped his Raiton no Yoroi to biju levels even beforehand, so the amount of strength he needed just to match Tsunade's own was clearly far, far superior to that necessary to one-shot a CS2 user. If Tsunade can break Madara's Susano'o with her immense strength, even breaking one of its weapons at one point, there is no way in hell that Sasuke will be able to take a single hit from her and still be alive (let alone conscious), even with his Juin-enhanced wings and durability backing him up.

Sasuke also lacks Orochimaru's natural durability, something that clearly assisted Orochimaru in taking hits from Tsunade, and something that still didn't prevent the guy from almost getting OHKOed by one of Tsunade's punches, even retreating from battle soon after being hit by said attack. Oral Rebirth can save Sasuke from death, but he can't exactly spam it, can he now? Whereas the Hokage can spam her super strength and regenerative techniques just fine, as evinced during her fight against Madara.

Tsunade can easily regenerate from pretty much each and every one of Sasuke's attacks, be it his Katons, his weaponry, his snake-related jutsu or even his Chidori variants. If Tsunade can deal with the Katons of Madara Uchiha comfortably enough, even a CS2 Sasuke's Katons shouldn't be giving her any trouble whatsoever. Thanks to Byakugou, she also managed to regenerate from horrible injuries, ranging from Madara impaling her with Susano'o weapons to outright bifurcating her with a Susano'o sword.

Just because SM Madara cannot regenerate limbs doesn't mean Hashirama or Tsunade cannot, as there is no reason to believe that Madara's mastery over regeneration techniques is on par with that of Hashirama or Tsunade yet. Also, Hashirama's medical techniques were great because he could do them without handseals, but never once have they been described as being capable of regenerating limbs, unlike Tsunade's Sozo Saisei. Unless, of course, you believe she was lying. I think otherwise.

If Tsunade can survive and regenerate from bifurcation, there is absolutely nothing stopping her from regenerating a lost limb in a matter of seconds. It's not like Sasuke to bifurcate or decapitate opponents from the get-go, anyway, and even in his most bloodthirsty moments is seemingly satisfied with just firing a Chidori Eiso right through their bodies. So Tsunade clearly isn't dying to any Chidori variant, Katon or weapon trick. Sasuke, on the other hand, can easily die if he takes a direct hit from the lady Hokage.

Sasuke's snake summons, including Manda, all die to Tsunade's immense strength - absolutely none of them should be anywhere as durable as Susano'o, something that even protected Madara from Onoki's forest-busting Jinton: Genkai Hakuri, something that also functions as a disintegration beam of sorts. Susano'o also protected Sasuke from the attacks of several Kages in its ribcage form alone, and that was a MS Susano'o, as opposed to the EMS one that Tsunade casually broke with her punches.

Katsuyu can also keep Manda busy, using her splitting technique to escape any of Manda's attempts to rip her into pieces, transform into much smaller slugs that retain the original's immense durability and are capable of raining down acid blasts strong enough to one-shot even 'immortals' like Orochimaru that shrugged off the venomous chakra ominpresent in v2 Naruto's chakra shroud and chakra arms, chakra that was strong enough to damage a steel bridge and disintegrate smaller snakes.

There's also the fact that even a rusty Tsunade was capable of summoning a Katsuyu equal in size to both Manda and Gamabunta. Current Tsunade, drawing on her Byakugou chakra reserves, should be able to summon an even bigger Katsuyu, one that could really put the pressure on Manda (and Sasuke) for sure. For that matter, Sasuke has no way to kill the huge slug either. She's just too big and durable for him to kill easily. Genjutsu may not work on her either, as she seems to lack eyes.

Sasuke's shuriken spray won't do shit to Tsunade, thanks to her immense durability (that enabled her to tank Mabui's Tenso no Jutsu with only superficial wounds, even before activating Sozo Saisei) and regenerative powers, and he isn't putting her under a Genjutsu if five Susano'o-clad clones of Madara Uchiha, strong enough to take out two Kages, seemingly weren't capable of doing so. I doubt it.  Sasuke's only way to kill Tsunade is through Kirin, but he'll need a large amount of time in order to prep that, and Tsunade can easily kill him long before that happens. He's strong, but without the Mangekyo Sharingan, he's just not cut out for fighting Kages. And neither is Deidara.


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> When you can apply logic to what you're showing me, maybe then I'll consider it as anything more than an inconsistency. The skin on the head is just skin, the same as anywhere else. If he can regenerate a bone or an organ, then its canon that he can regen a cut.
> 
> Introducing something you don't understand to a debate and using it as the crux of your argument isn't exactly a sure fire way to win people over, Jad. Actually, it just looks like you're clutching at straws.​​



You can say all the things you want about how I am clutching at straws, or how I am not debating good. I am doing two easy things here:

I'm posting an image from the manga, and then I'm telling you wants happening in that image. No fancy tricks here. I didn't draw it mind you, just want to get that out of the way. I can't draw.

The fact that Kishimoto, the creator if you forgot, shows how the body is healed (wounds closing up, blood disappearing), and then you see the area of the head is not touched. You should pretty much know, no healing went on there. It makes sense also, Madara covering his head, Kishimoto continually not showing the head being healed. And it isn't like he showed in the next panel the blood on his torso and arm is as is visible as he drew it before the regeneration - in the same chapter. That last sentence was directed mainly at your _art inconsistency_ statement.

Doesn't really help your case at all...makes your case look like a wet paper bag.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 3, 2014)

You haven't said anything you haven't said already, so I'll safely assume you have nothing more to add?

Showing me the same panels over and over doesn't add any explanation behind why Madara's can't heal a cut.​​


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

How come Madara's eyes did not automatically regenerate?

I know he can't regenerate his brother Izuna's eyes (the pair of Rinnegans), but he should have had his normal eyes regenerated back. But instead, Madara's eyes stayed closed.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

Jad said:


> Then that just means the area of the head is vulnerable, because it doesn't seem that the _regenerative technique_ works there. As I have provided evidence. You can throw all the emotocons you want at me, doesn't change what I showed you. You can try and make it seems like the most dumbest point, doesn't change what I showed you.​



Tsunade kept the blood stain on her torso after she was stabbed by Madara and shot with magetama, though she was shown on panel to have regenerated those wounds.  Does her sash thing keeping bloodstains for several chapters mean the stomach is a vulnerable point too?  

Dude probably just didn't wipe off his forehead when he cleaned of his beach bod.


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

Pirate, read this post, it counters exactly what you said (I kept pointing it out, when Kishimoto showed how Madara healed his injuries, in that chapter, all the blood on his torso and arm disappeared, but the forehead still had that distinct blood visibly showing. Unlike how Kishimoto in that Chapter showed how the body was healed - by not showing the blood that was so visible before the regeneration):



Also ontop of Madara not being able to regenerate his own original Uchiha eyes.

So now you have:


 Madara covering his head with his arms in the face of Gaara's attack.
 Madara's forehead not regenerating because their was no aura nor did the blood disappear
 Madara's original eyes not regenerating
 Kishimoto continually not showing the head being healed through the regeneration technique - even though he has had so many chances to.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

Madara got pounded into a crater by 9 bijuu so hard they annihilated Susano and blew off his arm.  Do you expect people to believe his face took no real damage during that? 

Reference

Plus he still has the scratchy marks from blood and dirt on his body post healing.  I'm going to have to go with unconvinced.


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## Jad (Jan 3, 2014)

'Scratchy' stuff on torso and arm compared to dark black 'blood' on forehead doesn't break my point because they arent the same. Otherwise the forehead would be 'scratchy' stuff. Also Madaras original eyes did not regenerated as well.


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## Thunder (Jan 3, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I think that regeneration at least allows you to stick you arm back on your socket and have it instantly re-attach.  Madara did that, and you could say that was because it was a Zetsu limb, but Tsunade managed to put her torso back on her legs with just regular medical jutsu and seems okay, so she could probably pull a Madara.  If you think Katsuya is out, she can always divide up and ferry limbs back to her master, but that seems more like something Orochimaru would do.  Bonus points to her if she rips off Sasuke's arm as a replacement and uses his Uchiha dna to awaken new powers.



I would definitely buy that. I guess my only gripe with such a plan is how Tsunade would accomplish this during the heat of battle. If we're operating under the assumption Hebi Sasuke is skilled enough to chop off some her limbs, performing this procedure could prove to quite difficult if he's consistently applying pressure. 

Katsuyu could always engulf Tsunade and heal up her injuries. If it goes down like that Sasuke doesn't have much choice but to set up Kirin and pray to the Shintō gods that it works.

I do believe it's possible Tsunade is above Hebi Sasuke at this point, as Orochimaru was more or less on his last leg when Sasuke "defeated" him. Her portrayal in the war arc seems to suggest this. Hebi Sasuke may have absorbed Orochimaru, but he doesn't have access to _all_ of his abilities, like Edo Tensei. Same with Yamata if you don't believe Orochimaru will make an appearance here. 

I don't know anymore. And this skin hurts my eyes.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> He knows of Tsunade's medical ability, I doubt he isn't going to try Chidori Eisou or something more powerful then a sword slash. Also he wanted Deidara, alive.
> 
> Tsunade engages in CQC every time she fights, it's her forte. She'll no doubt bring out Katsuyu early but it's OOC for her to bring it out as soon as a match starts.
> 
> ...



Exactly. He knows of Tsunades medical ability, he knows of his Sharingan and Chidori variants. She summons Katsuyu right away, and he starts with Chidori.
Those are logical ways to start Kyokan.

You don't understand the circumstances of when she does so. Against Oro she could not summon Katsuyu early, because Kishi was building that specific moment up for the Sannin triple summon. They we're all to summon at the same time, that's the ENTIRE POINT of the chapter. Also, she might not be able to summon Katsuyu without blood. Against Madara she was backed up by 4 Kage level ninja, and Katsuyu was already being used for other things. Honestly just look at the circumstance at hand Kyokan. She is fighting an Uchiha that's specializes in Genjustu and Chidori techniques. She knows that the only way to not get paralyzed by said techniques, is too use Katusyu as a meat shield. She also knows the safest way to break out if a Genjustu, is the partner method. She ALSO knows that this ninja made quick work( to her understanding) if her former teammate that was equal in strentgh to her. It's inly logical at this this specific moment to summon Katusyu early. Why would she not ? She still can spar in CQC, and Katsuyu brings no drawbacks, only help.

So you agree Byakago amps her shunshin? That's what I was trying to say, as more chakra what amplify speed.

I agree that what Sasuke did was obviosuly more impressive, but you have to take into consideration the shape Tsunade was in. She was exhausted from smashing the ground for hours. She was an entire 20 years out of practice(as a taijustu specialist, which is even worse) and she didn't use Byakago  AND she actually got the blitz off unlike Sasuke. I would not put it past Tsunade to be easily on Deidara's level, especially considering she was blitzing 4's( Shizune) and 4.5's(Oro) way back when she was rusty and not using Byakago.

Lol that shit is trash, had me all confused on that fucking sage resengan he used on Madara. But Katsuyu is known for it's durabilty and defensive properties. Considering it could survive a large scale ST, without taking any damage what's so ever, leads me to believe it can survive a damn Kurama cloak. It doesn't matter anyway, as it did canonically. If you want to argue for the book, that's fine. That just means the book is extremely durable. I'm fine with that.


How would you know? EVERYTHING guys through the Habachi's tentacles. We only feats for Chidori varients, so his Kamui technique literally cannot be used in this disscussion, as it only he been used to butcher Bee. I'm not saying Tsunade wants to walk through that technique, but with Katsuyu + her regeneration and durabilty, she practically can.

 Why don't you understand this? It doesn't matter if he was distracted or not Kyokan, Manda tried getting to Bunta as fast as he could, and Tsunade had to cover double that distance with an object that slowed her down. This was also an already slow Tsunade to begin with. Current Tsuande is much faster, so her speed advantage becomes unfair. I mean honestly? Do you want me to bring out scans to chop this down for you?


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## DeK3iDE (Jan 3, 2014)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Any form of Sasuke from Hebi on is a very bad match up for Tsunade. Chidori Nagashi, Sharingan and Kenjutsu basically nullify any Taijutsu advantage. No matter how much people try to sugar coat her speed, it's not even close to being on the same level as Deidara.
> 
> Oh, and so much for intercepting the Raikage.


numbing her movements doesn't do him any good when the only probably means he has of killing her means putting himself at risk for a strike from Tsunade. And because of the regen, numbing her is probably hella moot anyway. Nobody gets points for simply being able to stop their opponent from moving. This is a battle _to the death_


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## Master Sephiroth (Jan 3, 2014)

Big Bad Wolf said:


> numbing her movements doesn't do him any good when the only probably means he has of killing her means putting himself at risk for a strike from Tsunade. And because of the regen, numbing her is probably hella moot anyway. Nobody gets points for simply being able to stop their opponent from moving. This is a battle _to the death_



If she gets stunned by Chidori Nagashi, Sasuke would just put a deeper wound on her. After seeing that she regenerates from it, he knows he has to decapitate or bisect.


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## Veracity (Jan 3, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Yeah I'm just going to leave this alone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's more difficult to on an iphone. You said Tsunade summoned Katusyu to heal the Kage rather attack.

When was this chance ? 

If he uses it, then Tsunade already has Katsuyu summoned regardless. High usage of CS1 could lead to Sasukes downfall anyway.

 Yeah you are that type of person. The Asuma point was Completley useless, and wasn't worth my time to even reply too. Asuma was in a far better condition then Tsunade who couldn't move at all. I over exaggerated his conditions, but he still could fight fine.

You should look better. And how is that not fair ? It's not like my post was even pointed toward you to begin with. It simply had nothing to do with you .


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## Sadgoob (Jan 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Also, Deidara reacted to a faster and skilled opponent than Sasuke in CqC ,in a much closer distance [3],




Gai isn't faster than Hebi Sasuke. He's more reflexive than Sasuke _without his Sharingan_, but Sauske's boosts put him above Gai in movement speed.

Sasuke's also better at molding chakra (ninjutsu, seals) so his shunshin and chakra enhanced movement is better anyway.

And in your own scan, Deidara says Sasuke's movements are "definitely too fast" i.e. he's unable to keep up with his speed.

And Deidara's faster than Tsunade, but Tsunade can't go aerial like Deidara and doesn't have Obito to plant bombs for her to limit Sasuke's movement.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 3, 2014)

Thunder said:


> I would definitely buy that. I guess my only gripe with such a plan is how Tsunade would accomplish this during the heat of battle. If we're operating under the assumption Hebi Sasuke is skilled enough to chop off some her limbs, performing this procedure could prove to quite difficult if he's consistently applying pressure.
> 
> Katsuyu could always engulf Tsunade and heal up her injuries. If it goes down like that Sasuke doesn't have much choice but to set up Kirin and pray to the Shintō gods that it works.
> 
> ...



I totally forgot.  

If Katsuya's out, the power to melt over the battlefield and both ensnare or acid enemies while healing Tsunade completely negates the speed factor.  It could also reverse shosen anyone caught inside and knock them out.  That kind of field control is a really good compliment to her close combat.  I suppose Sasuke might summon Manda as a response, but Tsunade could just punch him.   

This skin really is painful.  I miss my glaring orange.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Tsunade needed Sakura's help to transmit chakra through 1/10th of Katsuyu. Sakura may have aided her with the summoning itself but that's no reason to assert that Tsunade is incapable of doing it alone. She has massive chakra reserves, and summoning regular boss-sized summons, who are about half the size of that which she summoned with Sakura, costs her barely any chakra at all.



She has massive chakra reserves, but her language made it sound like what she did with Sakura was only possible because Sakura was there. This is Sakura who had Naruto's chakra too. Note how she felt the need to mention *two* Byakugou users were important to what they were going to do. That doesn't sound like something only one Byakugou user can accomplish.



Jad said:


> [justifyThe fact that Kishimoto, the creator if you forgot, shows how the body is healed (wounds closing up, blood disappearing), and then you see the area of the head is not touched. You should pretty much know, no healing went on there. It makes sense also, Madara covering his head, Kishimoto continually not showing the head being healed. And it isn't like he showed in the next panel the blood on his torso and arm is as is visible as he drew it before the regeneration - in the same chapter. That last sentence was directed mainly at your _art inconsistency_ statement..[/justify]



Madara covering his head doesn't say that regeneration doesn't heal there. I don't think many would love to feel the sand on their face, even if they can regenerate. 

We've never seen Tsunade/Hashirama sustain any head injures that needed healing. Though the only thing you may have a point on is the limb regeneration which is supported by Tsunade not regenerating when Madara split her in half*. 

*He felt the need to ensure that the parts he cut were divided by wood though; it could mean something.


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## Veracity (Jan 4, 2014)

^ the only reason she couldn't regenerate when in half was because she was chakra exhausted


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 4, 2014)

Sasuke has the capacity to beat Tsunade, but you've got to bear in mind that this is essentially CS2 Sasuke with access to an armless Orochimaru's abilities. Orochimaru's abilities will be used quite a bit here.

Though it is really hard to say how each character will approach. Sasuke knows nothing about Tsunade's abilities apart from she's a healer*. Tsunade has intel on Sasuke based on team 7's reports, I would imagine she knows Orochimaru's abilities. Whether or not she thinks Orochimaru's powers are within Sasuke won't matter much because the moment Sasuke starts using snakes, she'll expect Orochimaru's jutsu. Obviously she won't know of jutsu Sasuke didn't use on team 7 such as Kirin.

So that leaves Sasuke in a situation where he'll need to learn through the fight about Tsunade's abilities. Whilst Tsunade can tailor her approach base on the knowledge she has. 

If Sasuke can cut her in half and split her body, I can certainly see him winning. Though he'll probably take the time to learn how she fights. Sasuke should deduce that she has knowledge on his abilities as she's receive reports from the Konoha ninja he faced.
So Sasuke would probably be more liberal with the jutsu he uses, saving Kirin for a moment he might need it. 

Tsunade will probably wind up using Katsuyu, and I don't honestly see what Sasuke can do about it. I don't think Kirin will even end Kasuyu. 

She'll have to be pushed more quite a bit (especially as CQC with Sasuke will be hard to achieve), but with Katsuyu, she'll doubtlessly win. Seeing as Katsuyu will pressure Sasuke into using more chakra draining moves, whilst Tsunade will always be healing.



Likes boss said:


> ^ the only reason she couldn't regenerate when in half was because she was chakra exhausted



Madara *knows* the nature of her regeneration and seemingly made the conscious decision to split her in half. That could imply a limitation to her healing. One that Katsuyu seems to be able to get around going by Katsuyu's offer to heal Tsunade.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 4, 2014)

I think that Byakugō can keep Tsunade's head alive, but it's way too much of a stretch for me to say she can grow a new one altogether. Similar to Madara needing a new arm to reattach, if Tsunade could get her head reattached, she could survive the ordeal.

But if an opponent is already strong enough to completely detach her head, then her odds were bad from the get-go.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 4, 2014)

For me this depends on how the initial stages of the fight play out; I see Tsunade winning 7.365 times out of 10 by virtue of an IC Sasuke's propensity to get right up in his enemy's face and Tsunade being skillful, hardy and heavy handed enough to surprise him there or blindside and one-shot him from behind.

Closing the distance strikes me as the "Hebi Sasuke thing to do" so to speak, and the more distance between himself and Tsunade the more time she has to avoid his incoming assaults, so with manga knowledge he'd do best to actually close into short to mid range, and Katsuyu's perpetual splitting and melting can help encourage him to try to close in and get rid of Tsunade (with or without his own boss summon aiding him).

He might catch her with _Chidori Eisō_, but the IC Slug Princess has shown that she isn't above playing possum and she caught Kabuto and nearly caught Madara with that tactic. If he's going in with his actual blade I don't believe the Sharingan's insight can negate a significant discrepancy in pure close-combat skill and experience given Sasuke taking the first hit against both Danzō and Kakashi when they had their Sharingan eyes concealed, with Kakashi at least being half a tier _less_ skilled than Tsunade herself in Taijutsu but remaining a full tier _more_ skilled than Sasuke himself.

The Hokage's durability, resilience, strength and regeneration swing a close-quarters skirmish even further into her favor because even in the instance that she is hit by any of Sasuke's attacks she can still capitalize on his forced proximity to deliver a retaliatory blow carrying the strength of a hundred men not too dissimilar to how both Naruto and Ay got Sasuke, which cuts off Sasuke's opportunity to back off after feeling pressured as he'll already be dead at that point.

His best chance would be _Kirin_, but I don't think it's very likely that he'll resort to that before trying close-quarters.



Thunder said:


> Tsunade's healing factor was implied (read: implied) to the same one Hashirama used, except her's requires a seal. Current Madara has the same healing ability his old rival possessed, but still opted to steal poor Zetsu's arm (man this guy never gets break) instead of merely regrowing it. And I'm pretty sure Madara also sustained some serious internal injuries too. He got smacked around by the bijū.
> 
> Maybe Tsunade's healing is better than Hashirama's? Or perhaps Madara doesn't have the same skill in that particular area as Hashirama?
> 
> Neither explanation sits right with me to be honest, so I'm waiting for other opinions.



Madara compared Hashirama's recovery ability to Tsunade's standard  and concluded that the First's was superior on the grounds that he could forgo the use of hand seals. He then witnesses Tsunade's _Byakugō no Jutsu_ hastily patch up a grievous wound _without a hand seal this time_ and likens it to Hashirama's ability _after specifically noting that the feat required no hand seals_.

In my honest opinion, the implication is that Tsunade and Hashirama's techniques are only the same in the sense that they don't require hand seals and not in the sense of the level of restoration they afford, which means that Hashirama's abilities should still be restricted by the typical impossibilities of medical ninjutsu whilst Tsunade's should still surpass that _as they have been explicitly stated to_ by both Tsunade herself and the guidebooks, as Madara simply had no way of knowing just how extensive Tsunade's regenerative technique was at that point in the fight.

What Madara did with Zetsu's arm isn't any better than what Tsunade/Katsuyu did with her upper and lower halves _without her regeneration active_, and yet Tsunade's activated _Sōzō Saisei_ and _Byakugō no Jutsu_ are canonically at a level of reconstruction beyond _Shōsen_.

To be quite honest I think it would be somewhat silly the "ultimate medical ninjutsus" are in actuality nothing more than normal medical ninjutsus without hand seals and be so costly in comparison, but above all I'd like to think that it's simply consistent with Tsunade being hailed as the ultimate medic as opposed to Hashirama when Hashirama's abilities were seemingly no secret to at least Konoha's higher ups.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

Well if they were the same as normal medical jutsu's without handseals, then Kabuto's seal-less shosen regeneration would be in the same tier, and it's not.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Well if they were the same as normal medical jutsu's without handseals, then Kabuto's seal-less shosen regeneration would be in the same tier, and it's not.



I think Kabuto's _In'yu Shōmetsu_ is supposed to be above normal medical ninjutsu as well even if it isn't up to par with Tsunade's considering that it was the entire reason Orochimaru valued him so highly as opposed to something like his prowess with _Shikon no Jutsu_ that made Kakashi think to himself that even he would be obsolete soon.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 4, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I think Kabuto's _In'yu Shōmetsu_ is supposed to be above normal medical ninjutsu as well even if it isn't up to par with Tsunade's considering that it was the entire reason Orochimaru valued him so highly as opposed to something like his prowess with _Shikon no Jutsu_ that made Kakashi think to himself that even he would be obsolete soon.



He also valued him that highly because something about a secret lab that got built for him in a flashback.  ... right?

I was too busy trying to figure out how he purchased and moved to materials and resources to an island in the middle of nowhere without anyone noticing to may attention to the sentences, and then I got started on how he had it constructed without help.  

I settled on shadow clones and sealing scrolls if you wondered the same thing.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 4, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He also valued him that highly because something about a secret lab that got built for him in a flashback.  ... right?



_It seems like Orochimaru prepared the laboratory because of Kabuto's talent for medical ninjutsu_.



> I was too busy trying to figure out how he purchased and moved to materials and resources to an island in the middle of nowhere without anyone noticing to may attention to the sentences, and then I got started on how he had it constructed without help.
> 
> I settled on shadow clones and sealing scrolls if you wondered the same thing.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

Two Mid Kage levels going at it.... should be a good match. Could honestly go either way from what I see.

Sasuke has a variety of powerful katons however she has the speed and reflexes to avoid them like Sakura avoided Itachi's katon. With Byakugou active she can deflect his katons as well. Sharingan genjutsu is impressive however a shoulder mini Katsuya should nullify that. With only a tier difference in speed, that should not play a significant role in the battle. Chidori senbons and throwing weapons should be able to be avoided. Shuriken/kunai batted away as well.

In CQC, Tsunade has the skill advantage by over a whole tier. She has the strength to break his sword especially since Sasuke comes into battle without his raiton running through it many times at least initially. However his sharingan should allow him to make up for the skill advantage at least to some degree. However, combined with the use of his unblockable chidori sword (assuming she doesn't break it early on) and other chidori variants like chidori eisou, nagashi, and basic chidori, he should be able to definitely force her into activating byakugou and keep her on her toes in CQC. Tsunade can avoid chidori eisou or tank it. Same for nagashi and chidori. 

The issue is that he will need these variants to keep up and continuously pressure this immortal woman. However, this will drain his chakra immensely. At this stage he will need CS1/CS2 to make it more competitive. He will need more chakra and more speed from CS1 to make sure to avoid Tsunade. Oral rebirth can help later when she does land a hit so he can keep going. His CS2 wings help as well to block a vicious punch or two from her. These techniques allows Sasuke to take a few hits and it not be the end of the battle. Something that would have eventually screwed him if he stayed in base. Tsunade's huge stamina combined with nigh perfect chakra control and byakugou's length gives credence to Tsunade outlasting Sasuke.

Snake summons counter Katsuya. The fight could really go either way as Sasuke would have to outlast her or obliterate her with Kirin. Beheading could work but if it is her only weakness then she will protect it will. It could go either way but just to add fuel to the fire, I'll say Tsunade edges it out with extreme difficulty more times than not.


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## Ersa (Jan 5, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> For me this depends on how the initial stages of the fight play out; I see Tsunade winning 7.365 times out of 10 by virtue of an IC Sasuke's propensity to get right up in his enemy's face and Tsunade being skillful, hardy and heavy handed enough to surprise him there or blindside and one-shot him from behind.
> 
> Closing the distance strikes me as the "Hebi Sasuke thing to do" so to speak, and the more distance between himself and Tsunade the more time she has to avoid his incoming assaults, so with manga knowledge he'd do best to actually close into short to mid range, and Katsuyu's perpetual splitting and melting can help encourage him to try to close in and get rid of Tsunade (with or without his own boss summon aiding him).
> 
> ...


Tsunade can't one-shot Sasuke, he can Oral Rebirth if she manages to land a good finishing blow on him. If he enters CS2, nothing short of a direct hit or a couple of grazes will put him down. And although the Slug Queen is better at pure taijutsu, Sasuke makes up for it with greater speed, CS1, Sharingan and Chidori Nagashi to keep her away. Sasuke is no rookie (managing to hold off* Killer B while weakened and without the Cursed Seal boost*), something which I think a weakened Tsunade would also struggle with considering B forces even speedsters like Itachi & CQC monsters like Kisame back.

Tsunade almost caught Madara with possum because the latter is an arrogant prick and so is Kabuto. Hebi Sasuke is not anywhere near as cocky as those two, he is one of most tactical fighters in the series, he analyses and deducts things before rushing in. And with his knowledge of Tsunade as a medical ninja, he isn't going to turn his back after he lands Eiso. He'll make sure she's dead by beheading, something she may or may not be able to regenerate with recent manga evidence.

Sasuke can stun her with Chidori Nagashi if she grabs him. She won't be knocked out like Naruto but she won't be able to finish her blow. If Sasuke gets wrecked in CQC, he can Oral Rebirth, send Manda or Aoda in, enter CS2 and prep Kirin. I'm iffy on how much Katsuyu can tank a penetrating attack like Kirin, she's good against blunt force damage but Kirin may be enough.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Snake summons counter Katsuya. The fight could really go either way as Sasuke would have to outlast her or obliterate her with Kirin. Beheading could work but if it is her only weakness then she will protect it will. It could go either way but just to add fuel to the fire, I'll say Tsunade edges it out with extreme difficulty more times than not.



With Byakugou, how is Kirin going to obliterate Tsunade? 

Also how do snake summons counter Katsuyu? They can't even bind her successfully. I doubt many snakes are going to be as fast as Manda; Sasuke doesn't have access to Manda II. Though Aoda is still arguable.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> With Byakugou, how is Kirin going to obliterate Tsunade?
> 
> Also how do snake summons counter Katsuyu? They can't even bind her successfully. I doubt many snakes are going to be as fast as Manda; Sasuke doesn't have access to Manda II. Though Aoda is still arguable.


I always took it as byakugou could work as long as you are not completely obliterated. Meaning attacks like Jinton, perhaps FRS/amaterasu, Kirin, Bjuu dama, etc that can completely destroy someone could potentially bypass byakugou.

My thoughts were Aoda plus a couple of fodder snakes to keep her busy.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> I always took it as byakugou could work as long as you are not completely obliterated. Meaning attacks like Jinton, perhaps FRS/amaterasu, Kirin, Bjuu dama, etc that can completely destroy someone could potentially bypass byakugou.
> 
> My thoughts were Aoda plus a couple of fodder snakes to keep her busy.



Though can we readily say Kirin's obliteration capabilities are on par with Bijuu-Dama/Amaterasu/FRS/Jinton type jutsu? Would one giant lighting bolt really obliterate someone whose constantly healing compared to something that destroys on a molecular level?

But Katsuyu would keep dividing, that was troublesome for even Manda. Manda had more capabilities than all other snakes shown - except for Manda 2 (unsure about Aoda though).


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though can we readily say Kirin's obliteration capabilities are on par with Bijuu-Dama/Amaterasu/FRS/Jinton type jutsu? Would one giant lighting bolt really obliterate someone whose constantly healing compared to something that destroys on a molecular level?
> 
> But Katsuyu would keep dividing, that was troublesome for even Manda. Manda had more capabilities than all other snakes shown - except for Manda 2 (unsure about Aoda though).


I was pretty impressed by that mountain destruction. Called it visual stimulation if you will. That lightning bolt was freaking huge. Surprised you picked on that part though. I usually don't consider Kirin practical because its only feat had amaterasu fueling it meaning more katons would be needed to get it to that level of power. However wasting that much chakra against Tsunade will get him killed.

Don't know if she fights like that. Being basically 2 huge slugs. I suppose it would be possible.


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## Joakim3 (Jan 5, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though can we readily say Kirin's obliteration capabilities are on par with Bijuu-Dama/Amaterasu/FRS/Jinton type jutsu? Would one giant lighting bolt really obliterate someone whose constantly healing compared to something that destroys on a molecular level?



_Kirin_ is closer to things like Bijudama/FRS/Jinton than it is to things like _Shinra Tensei_ as all do their damage via concentrated explosions or penetration rather than BFT. Kirin vaporized a km+ tall mountain, something that is substantially more dupable than Katsuya, who being soft doesn't do good against piercing attacks something Kirin is the epitome off. 

Katsuya right along with Tsunade would get completely vaporized


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## Thunder (Jan 5, 2014)

*@FlamingRain;*

Looking at this from an author's stand point, I believe Kishimoto used Hashirama to hype up Tsunade, not the other way around. Tsunade's regenerative ability was already shown and emphasized in the past as you noted, so there was no reason to bring it up again. Instead, Kishimoto focused on the one thing that would definitively place Tsunade on Hashirama's level (medical ninjutsu wise) in our eyes: seal-less healing. 

Hashirama was said to be in class by himself in every jutsu, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that his self-healing is on par with Tsunade's. Until we know more I'm going to assume they are equals in that respect. Maybe when Hashirama's own databook profile is updated we'll find out more


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## Jad (Jan 5, 2014)

You know I was thinking. If Hashirama/Tsunade regeneration technique could regrow limbs, wouldn't Madara's arm regenerate back even if he stuck a Zetsu arm on there? It's not like the Zetsu arm is part of Madara's anatomy in the sense that it is 'his'. You'd think Madara's arm regenerating back would just push the Zetsu arm out.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 5, 2014)

No, because it's only going to regenerate until it attaches all the connections to the new arm, and then quit, because there's no more damage.


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## Rosencrantz (Jan 5, 2014)

^^Could be that he has control over it. Also worth noting he might not have the same mastery that Hashirama had. And the worse the injury, the more chakra it takes. So taking the arm could simply have been a way to conserve chakra.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 6, 2014)

Joakim3 said:


> _Kirin_ is closer to things like Bijudama/FRS/Jinton than it is to things like _Shinra Tensei_ as all do their damage via concentrated explosions or penetration rather than BFT. Kirin vaporized a km+ tall mountain, something that is substantially more dupable than Katsuya, who being soft doesn't do good against piercing attacks something Kirin is the epitome off.



Compared to other jutsu, it is closer to things like Bijuudama/FRS/Jinton. In actuality, it has the same instant kill effect it would have to normal shinobi, but it is not an obliteration jutsu which wipes the foe out of existence.

Jinton/FRS/Bijuu-Dama jutsu completely obliterate their target; Jinton jutsu; FRS jutsu*; Bijuu Dama**.
*The parts Ningendo touched; he wasn't in the centre of the jutsu.
**Consider the quality of Rashoumon. 

Katsuyu is a constant healer, we've seen a constant healer stabbed a few times and still going through battle. Lighting won't stop the healing process. 
Kirin just has a Shinra Tensei like effect, the only difference being it has a piercing effect. That is radically different from outright obliteration. 



> Katsuya right along with Tsunade would get completely vaporized



If, and only if, Kirin suddenly obtains the quality obliteration capabilities that Jinton/FRS/Bijuu Dama have. Something it lacks as of now.



Jad said:


> You know I was thinking. If Hashirama/Tsunade regeneration technique could regrow limbs, wouldn't Madara's arm regenerate back even if he stuck a Zetsu arm on there? It's not like the Zetsu arm is part of Madara's anatomy in the sense that it is 'his'. You'd think Madara's arm regenerating back would just push the Zetsu arm out.



This is a point worth noting. 

Though I always thought Madara/Hashirama regeneration (of limbs) would use Mokuton. Seeing as Mokuton uses the cells and life force of the user, they could literally regrow the arm. 

However as you've pointed out, Madara's conscious decision to take a Zetsu limb rather than regenerate leans towards the regeneration of limbs not being possible. Though the regeneration of organs seems possible if we consider the stabs Tsunade received and just healed automatically.


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## Mithos (Jan 7, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Sasuke can close the distance against Tsunade and his attack is unblockable. If Tsunade does block she loses a limb.
> 
> edit: I'll say she can win if she manages to scramble Sasuke's nervous system though and make him unable to move properly. I see Sasuke swinging and Tsunade not having anything to defend though. He may not blitz, but he can close the distance, and Tsunade simply can't block chidori.



She doesn't have to. She can opt to trade blows: Sasuke will die and she can regenerate.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 8, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Tsunade can't one-shot Sasuke, he can Oral Rebirth if she manages to land a good finishing blow on him.



Sasuke has to be conscious to use Oral Rebirth and he wouldn't be after a hit from Tsunade, so she can and he can't.



> Sasuke is no rookie (managing to hold off* Killer B while weakened and without the Cursed Seal boost*)



Playful Bee picked up a weapon he was unfamiliar with and swung at Sasuke two times, then decided he was in the mood to murk Sasuke, pulled out his own weapons and did just that, after which Sasuke required interference from the remainder of Taka to avoid dying horribly.

Sasuke didn't hold off anything.



> Tsunade almost caught Madara with possum because the latter is an arrogant prick and so is Kabuto.



Arrogance played no part in any of that.

Madara arrived at the logical conclusion that delivering a fatal wound would be fatal before he turned his back on her, and Kabuto did nothing more than make the logical assumption that an already out of breath small woman wouldn't be able to keep moving around with a subcostal injury that anyone else would have been rendered immobile by as they sat there in excruciating pain.



> Hebi Sasuke is not anywhere near as cocky as those two, he is one of most tactical fighters in the series, he analyses and deducts things before rushing in.



So I take it this explains why he immediately rushed an Akatsuki pair he had no knowledge on, failed to notice that his sword met no resistance when Tobi phased through it, and turned his attention elsewhere, right?



> And with his knowledge of Tsunade as a medical ninja, he isn't going to turn his back after he lands Eiso.



Repairing damaged organs is typically beyond the reach of medical ninjutsus , and Sasuke has no knowledge of _Byakugō no Jutsu_ being the exception to that rule. _Chidori Eisō_ can inflict a wound that'd normally be fatal regardless of treatment just like Sasori's sword could even once an antidote had been administered when he struck a vital (forcing Chiyo to resort to a raw life energy transfer technique that wasn't even a medical ninjutsu).

Sasuke'd be every bit as prone to falling for Tsunade playing up her injury as Kabuto and Madara were.



> Sasuke can stun her with Chidori Nagashi if she grabs him. She won't be knocked out like Naruto but she won't be able to finish her blow.



Why won't she? Tsunade's strength, durability, and resilience are far beyond anyone in that squad Sasuke used _Chidori Nagashi_ on, and the body naturally recovers from the technique's paralysis effects after a moment, meaning that with _Byakugō_ speeding through years-worth of work in seconds it should be ineffective.


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## Ersa (Jan 8, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke has to be conscious to use Oral Rebirth and he wouldn't be after a hit from Tsunade, so she can and he can't.


Depending on where she hits him and if he's in CS2 then he'll still be conscious. A full on punch to the head should be the only thing that can instantly knock his lights out (obviously as he won't have a head). But she'll never land that, he can predict her moves on top of being faster and Nagashi to protect himself.



> Playful Bee picked up a weapon he was unfamiliar with and swung at Sasuke two times, then decided he was in the mood to murk Sasuke, pulled out his own weapons and did just that, after which Sasuke required interference from the remainder of Taka to avoid dying horribly.
> 
> Sasuke didn't hold off anything.


Actually there was a brief skirmish where Sasuke did manage to partially hold his ground then got kicked back, relatively uninjured. He only got murked because he ran in with a Raiton sword (not expecting B to be able to counter it). It matters not because I feel without pre-cognition and while weakened, Tsunade would fare worse . 



> Arrogance played no part in any of that.
> 
> Madara arrived at the logical conclusion that delivering a fatal wound would be fatal before he turned his back on her, and Kabuto did nothing more than make the logical assumption that an already out of breath small woman wouldn't be able to keep moving around with a subcostal injury that anyone else would have been rendered immobile by as they sat there in excruciating pain.


Both Kabuto and Madara are exceedingly cocky opponents who love toying with opponents they deem weaker or incapacitated. Sasuke will not stab her in the stomach and walk away, it's more likely he'll go for the head after. I mean he stabbed Itachi's clone with Eisou then split Eisou into six beams just so he could make sure he was dead. If he stabs Tsunade in the stomach then does the same, it'll hit her heart, lungs and stomach. She won't be regenerating that quickly by any means. 



> So I take it this explains why he immediately rushed an Akatsuki pair he had no knowledge on, failed to notice that his sword met no resistance when Tobi phased through it, and turned his attention elsewhere, right?


Yet his deductions almost always prove to be right, he's careful which is why he waited for the right moment to absorb Orochimaru and how he deducted the mechanics of C4 and Deidara's explosives. He knew Deidara probably liked distance as the latter bombed him earlier so rushing Deidara is a good move. 



> Repairing damaged organs is typically beyond the reach of medical ninjutsus , and Sasuke has no knowledge of _Byakugō no Jutsu_ being the exception to that rule. _Chidori Eisō_ can inflict a wound that'd normally be fatal regardless of treatment just like Sasori's sword could even once an antidote had been administered when he struck a vital (forcing Chiyo to resort to a raw life energy transfer technique that wasn't even a medical ninjutsu). Sasuke'd be every bit as prone to falling for Tsunade playing up her injury as Kabuto and Madara were.


If he hits her in the head with Eisou before Byakogou comes into play then she'd done anyway. Anyways even if she plays dead she isn't tagging Sasuke from 5-10m away (Eisou's range), Tsunade has to actually get up from playing possum, Shunshin and tag him. Sasuke doesn't let down his guard anywhere near as easily as Madara and Kabuto does and unfortunately he is not only faster, possesses a better Shunshin (far more hype and feats) and can see her coming moments before she gets there. Possum won't cut it for Sasuke anymore then it'd cut it for Kakashi or Itachi. 



> Why won't she? Tsunade's strength, durability, and resilience are far beyond anyone in that squad Sasuke used _Chidori Nagashi_ on, and the body naturally recovers from the technique's paralysis effects after a moment, meaning that with _Byakugō_ speeding through years-worth of work in seconds it should be ineffective.


You do remember Naruto has natural Kyuubi regeneration right? I'm not saying she'll be blown back and knocked out like Sai and Naruto, I'm proposing it'll paralyze her and buy Sasuke a second to get out of there. She'll shrug it off no doubt but a faster ninja in Sasuke can use the brief moment to escape. And I doubt you believe Tsunade can cleanly waltz through Nagashi without any drawback. She doesn't have the feats for that. Sasuke can also amp Nagashi with senjutsu if he needs (CS2 will most likely come into play) and I severely have my doubts Tsunade will like senjutsu-amped Chidori Nagashi.

Regular Chidori barely puts dents in rocks, Senjutsu Chidori colliding with KN1 Rasengan created a blast that was comparable to the VOTE statues.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 8, 2014)

Second time trying to post this reply since I lost all of it earlier. 



Kyokan said:


> Depending on where she hits him and if he's in CS2 then he'll still be conscious.



She doesn't need to hit him directly in the head; if she hits him anywhere her fist will obliterate such a large chunk of him that he will die immediately.



> Actually there was a brief skirmish where Sasuke did manage to partially hold his ground then got kicked back, relatively uninjured.



It was all a part of a single skirmish. There is no such thing as only "partially" holding your own, you either hold your own or you fail to do so. Sasuke was hastily knocked back and disarmed by Bee and following that was immediately outmaneuvered once he clashed with him.

The reality is that he failed to hold his own.



> Both Kabuto and Madara are exceedingly cocky opponents who love toying with opponents they deem weaker or incapacitated.



Kabuto and Madara did what any logical person would do. You're just reiterating previous statements without providing any reasoning as to why their actions could be considered arrogant.



> Sasuke will not stab her in the stomach and walk away, it's more likely he'll go for the head after.



And you continue to assert this, among other things, without substantiating it in the least.



> I mean he stabbed Itachi's clone with Eisou then split Eisou into six beams just so he could make sure he was dead.



He split it because he was _enraged_ at the presence of the man who killed his entire family, not as a cautionary act.



> If he stabs Tsunade in the stomach then does the same, it'll hit her heart, lungs and stomach. She won't be regenerating that quickly by any means.



Pretty sure she will with a technique that goes fast enough while in its imperfect form for the databook to call instantaneous even if it is hyperbolic.



> Yet his deductions almost always prove to be right, he's careful which is why he waited for the right moment to absorb Orochimaru and how he deducted the mechanics of C4 and Deidara's explosives. He knew Deidara probably liked distance as the latter bombed him earlier so rushing Deidara is a good move.



Except that absorbing Orochimaru was not his intention when he entered that room, nor did it have anything to do with him believing Orochimaru was finished and de-activating his Curse Mark. Deducing the mechanics of C4 is not complicated when you can _see the bombs_ and he only concluded that Deidara was a ranged fighter after he attempted melee twice and Deidara fled both times before taking to the skies- anyone with half a brain would have figured it out at that point, and that's a point well after his initial attempt at blitzing.

This also doesn't explain him failing to notice his blade meet no resistance and thinking he had killed Tobi.



> If he hits her in the head with Eisou before Byakogou comes into play then she'd done anyway.



Which he never would considering that he not only lacks any incentive whatsoever to aim there in the first place, the staring distance is a lengthy 30 meters and Tsunade has made a rule out of pre-emptively activating _Byakugō_ before engaging an enemy, which is only going to be reinforced by her knowledge of Sasuke having killed her contemporary in Orochimaru.



> Tsunade has to actually get up from playing possum, Shunshin and tag him. Sasuke doesn't let down his guard anywhere near as easily as Madara and Kabuto does



Tsunade can do all that in the same motion, and everybody's guard is down when their opponent is believed to be dead. Sasuke has pre-maturely lowered his guard against numerous enemies in Orochimaru, Tobi, Bee, and Danzō, whilst boasting a databook intelligence rating that ranks below people like Kabuto, Sasori, Deidara, and Jiraiya, and being far less experienced than them in addition to people like Madara, all of whom have lowered their guards because they believed their opponents to be finished.

And just a reminder, playing possum _did_ cut it for Kakashi against Kakuzu and Asura; nevermind that Sasuke isn't as smart as Kakashi in the first place (or Itachi). And it looks like you're confusing the Sharingan for the Byakugan; he can be blindsided like anyone else.



> You do remember Naruto has natural Kyuubi regeneration right?



Yes, and you ought to be embarrassed for bringing it up like it means anything concerning Tsunade's regeneration.

Naruto couldn't heal from the injury he inflicted on his hand and Kakashi had to tend to it, he couldn't heal from the cuts left by many of Haku's senbon needles, he couldn't heal his abrasions from his match with Kiba until after the added influence of Hinata's medicine, he couldn't heal from the abrasions he suffered in his battles with Neji or Gaara, he couldn't heal from his broken leg or severed muscles and required Tsunade to heal his hand during the Sannin showdown, he remained bruised by Fukasaku hitting him and remained in horrible shape for a long time after Karui beat up on him.

It _sucks_ when he's not in Kn0, and to make matters worse: earlier that very day Sakura explicitly noted that Naruto's healing factor was much slower, and considering that he was still suffering from the ramifications of having entered Kn4 when the team infiltrated the base it's a safe assumption that the typical healing effect was even weaker than it already was.



> I'm not saying she'll be blown back and knocked out like Sai and Naruto, I'm proposing it'll paralyze her and buy Sasuke a second to get out of there.



I understand what you're saying and I completely disagree with it. Its paralysis effects have a laughably short duration when put next to the years'-worth of work her regeneration speeds through in mere seconds and she's far more of a physical beast Sai and Naruto combined to begin with.



> She'll shrug it off no doubt but a faster ninja in Sasuke can use the brief moment to escape.



Unless there is no brief moment.



> And I doubt you believe Tsunade can cleanly waltz through Nagashi without any drawback.



Well you shouldn't, _cu~z_ I do.



> She doesn't have the feats for that.



More like _Chidori Nagashi_ doesn't have the feats to suggest it can prevent someone like her from doing that.



> Sasuke can also amp Nagashi with senjutsu if he needs (CS2 will most likely come into play) and I severely have my doubts Tsunade will like senjutsu-amped Chidori Nagashi.



And he won't possibly know that he'll need to until it's far too late considering how close she'll already be when he activates it and that CS2 takes a couple seconds to invoke.



> Regular Chidori barely puts dents in rocks, Senjutsu Chidori colliding with KN1 Rasengan created a blast that was comparable to the VOTE statues.



"Barely puts dents in rocks"? I think you mean blasts holes taller than Sasuke and deeper than Choji is fat into rocks _(1)_.

And that blast was not at all comparable to the statues at the Valley of the End.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 8, 2014)

> She doesn't have the feats for that.



Yamato will-powered out an attack with chidori being flowed through his veins.  Do you really think mid-ranged stealth and espionage Yamato is more suited to such things than the village tank?  



> Actually there was a brief skirmish where Sasuke did manage to partially hold his ground then got kicked back, relatively uninjured.



That sounds a lot like Sasuke just getting beat up.  

I believe that's the point where Bee was beating up Suigetsu, and then Sasuke stepped in and did a couple of moves to save Suigetsu  and attack Bee, while Bee fended them both off, and then kicked Sasuke away.

Sasuke did have some cool moves, but for the most part he lost every exchange within a couple of moves, and a lot of those were with Juugo and or Suigetsu helping him.  When it comes to 7 swords, Bee's specialty, forget it.  Even Itachi couldn't get a word in edgewise against that move.  Though the faster and more experienced Itachi didn't flop away from it like Sasuke did, even though he was using a basic kunai instead of a raiton-flowed legendary sword.



> Sasuke doesn't let down his guard anywhere near as easily as Madara and Kabuto does



Madara never lets down his guard.  He always has complete control of the situation even when he's playing around.  The only times he was ever genuinely surprised were when Tsunade punched him, (and even then he left a clone just in case) and when she played dead and almost chopped him with his own sword.  Even the giant jinton cube didn't surprise him.  The last thing that ever made him !!! was when the alliance created a giant energy bird chanting the song of Neji, and gated cloaked Lee flew out of it to kick him half.  That's understandable . . . for a lot of reasons.


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## PAWS (Jan 8, 2014)

Tsunade mid dif.

Hebi sasuke has absolutely nothing to kill Tsunade with. She has more chakra than him and outlasts him.


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## Ersa (Jan 8, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> She doesn't need to hit him directly in the head; if she hits him anywhere her fist will obliterate such a large chunk of him that he will die immediately.


Chest and head really, shoulder/legs/arms will kill him over time perhaps but he can Oral Rebirth from that. I don't think she'll get the chance to land a straight up hit though.



> It was all a part of a single skirmish. There is no such thing as only "partially" holding your own, you either hold your own or you fail to do so. Sasuke was hastily knocked back and disarmed by Bee and following that was immediately outmaneuvered once he clashed with him.
> 
> The reality is that he failed to hold his own.


Partially holding off would imply you can defend against his onslaught initially but get beaten if you stay in, Edo Itachi fended off B but opted to retreat because he'd lose. It's different then rushing in and getting murked after 1-2 blows.

Sasuke fended off most of his attacks initially then got kicked back. I don't see a weakened Tsunade doing any better, for one she has no way to read the blades as Sharingan couldn't even keep up. With regeneration? She'd do better but in terms of pure CQC skill, she'd fare far worse.



> Kabuto and Madara did what any logical person would do. You're just reiterating previous statements without providing any reasoning as to why their actions could be considered arrogant.


Kabuto basically gloated over an "incapacitated" Tsunade, Madara had Tsunade skewered like meat on a skewer yet he opted to belittle the Kages instead of throwing her corpse away. Sasuke never gloats, he explained how he beat C4 to Deidara but that was because he literally couldn't move or use Sharingan nor could Deidara. He didn't have the capacity to finish Deidara off, something Kabuto and Madara should have had (Kabuto is debatable but his gloating resulted in him getting short-circuited). 



> And you continue to assert this, among other things, without substantiating it in the least.


He's a careful, tactical fighter, not quite on par with Kakashi and Itachi as he does occasionally rush in but he doesn't mess around or take too many risks (the risks he did take paid off).



> He split it because he was _enraged_ at the presence of the man who killed his entire family, not as a cautionary act.


Couldn't you say it was both? He couldn't do the same against Orochimaru because it hit the latter's arm. No reason to suggest he wouldn't do it.



> Pretty sure she will with a technique that goes fast enough while in its imperfect form for the databook to call instantaneous even if it is hyperbolic.


The Susanoo sword slash took time to close up, I'd imagine healing a punctured lung, heart and stomach would take longer. Enough time for Sasuke to capatalise and tank as she is, no shinobi can really walk around with severely crippled internal organs. Obito (Senju DNA) is a good example, he's not Tsunade but he's still somewhat of a tank.



> Except that absorbing Orochimaru was not his intention when he entered that room, nor did it have anything to do with him believing Orochimaru was finished and de-activating his Curse Mark. Deducing the mechanics of C4 is not complicated when you can _see the bombs_ and he only concluded that Deidara was a ranged fighter after he attempted melee twice and Deidara fled both times before taking to the skies- anyone with half a brain would have figured it out at that point, and that's a point well after his initial attempt at blitzing.
> 
> This also doesn't explain him failing to notice his blade meet no resistance and thinking he had killed Tobi.


Hm, he did want to kill him but chose the more tactical option in the end. Yes he thought Orochimaru was finished but he kept his Sharingan on and didn't let down his guard. CS2 damages him over time so that was a wise move.

He made the conclusion after testing it out via CQC, yes I agree. He might have suspected Deidara was a range fighter after getting bombed from long range and used the rushing in to test it out.

He was more interested in Deidara, as far as he was concerned Tobi was a crony that didn't matter, something he won't think of a Sannin member. Granted, it's one of his worse intelligence feats but mitigated by his much better ones.



> Which he never would considering that he not only lacks any incentive whatsoever to aim there in the first place, the staring distance is a lengthy 30 meters and Tsunade has made a rule out of pre-emptively activating _Byakugō_ before engaging an enemy, which is only going to be reinforced by her knowledge of Sasuke having killed her contemporary in Orochimaru.


Sasuke isn't stupid, he knows Tsunade is possibly the most skilled medic-nin to ever live. There could be some knowledge passed on from Orochimaru over the 3 years (doubtful but possible). He'll know regular wounds won't cut it and despite the fact medical ninjutsu can't repair organs he knows her reputation. He'll scout with his superior speed and Eisou, once he realizes what Byakugō does then he'll go for headshots. And even if she can regenerate her head it leaves an opening for him to further slice her up or have his snakes rip her to shreds.



> Tsunade can do all that in the same motion, and everybody's guard is down when their opponent is believed to be dead. Sasuke has pre-maturely lowered his guard against numerous enemies in Orochimaru, Tobi, Bee, and Danzō, whilst boasting a databook intelligence rating that ranks below people like Kabuto, Sasori, Deidara, and Jiraiya, and being far less experienced than them in addition to people like Madara, all of whom have lowered their guards because they believed their opponents to be finished.


Sasuke's tactical feats are superior to Deidara, Jiraiya and Kabuto. 

He only got out of CS2 against Orochimaru, Tobi is addressed and I'll concede this but it was 2v1, it won't be here. B is irrevelant honestly as if he'd hit anyone else bar a dojutsu user or a Perfect Jinn they would have been done.

Danzo was against Taka, in terms of mindset and tactics. Hebi >>> Taka.



> And just a reminder, playing possum _did_ cut it for Kakashi against Kakuzu and Asura; nevermind that Sasuke isn't as smart as Kakashi in the first place (or Itachi). And it looks like you're confusing the Sharingan for the Byakugan; he can be blindsided like anyone else.


Only if he turns his back, which he likely won't do. He didn't against Orochimaru, Tobi was still in his field of vision, Sasuke only stopped looking at B due to MS backlash, something that has no impact here. As for Danzo, Taka Sasuke is cocky, arrogant and doesn't think.

So yeah even with the element of surprise, blitzing and tagging someone who is faster (could potentially be vastly faster via CS1), can see you coming before you get there and has instant jutsu to stop you (Chidori Nagashi, snake meat shield)



> Yes, and you ought to be embarrassed for bringing it up like it means anything concerning Tsunade's regeneration.
> 
> Naruto couldn't heal from the injury he inflicted on his hand and Kakashi had to tend to it, he couldn't heal from the cuts left by many of Haku's senbon needles, he couldn't heal his abrasions from his match with Kiba until after the added influence of Hinata's medicine, he couldn't heal from the abrasions he suffered in his battles with Neji or Gaara, he couldn't heal from his broken leg or severed muscles and required Tsunade to heal his hand during the Sannin showdown, he remained bruised by Fukasaku hitting him and remained in horrible shape for a long time after Karui beat up on him.


I never said it was equal to Byakugō.

Kakashi noted his hand was healing quicker due to Kurama's power. It's still something. All I'm saying is a Jounin level fighter with pretty basic regeneration was paralyzed, knocked back and out by Nagashi. I don't think it's farfetched to suggest a Kage who is a tank might be very briefly paralyzed by it.



> It _sucks_ when he's not in Kn0, and to make matters worse: earlier that very day Sakura explicitly noted that Naruto's healing factor was much slower, and considering that he was still suffering from the ramifications of having entered Kn4 when the team infiltrated the base it's a safe assumption that the typical healing effect was even weaker than it already was.


True but remember he entered KN0 right after being hit by Nagashi? The same KN0 who regenerated a punctured lung?



> I understand what you're saying and I completely disagree with it. Its paralysis effects have a laughably short duration when put next to the years'-worth of work her regeneration speeds through in mere seconds and she's far more of a physical beast Sai and Naruto combined to begin with.


Yes, which is why I propose that the effect is brief and she doesn't get knocked back at all. I'm being very fair, some people would say it would do the same to her as it did to Sai.



> Unless there is no brief moment.


There should be, regeneration helps with paralyzing attacks I feel but it's different from waltzing through a simple sword attack.



> Well you shouldn't, _cu~z_ I do.






> More like _Chidori Nagashi_ doesn't have the feats to suggest it can prevent someone like her from doing that.


Paralyzing and knocking out a low Jounin class fighter and a mid-Jounin class fighter with basic regeneration is enough for me to suggest it temporarily halts Tsunade. She's never really waltzed through anything like Nagashi.



> And he won't possibly know that he'll need to until it's far too late considering how close she'll already be when he activates it and that CS2 takes a couple seconds to invoke.


He can easily get distance with his speed. He'll keep his distance if he sees her strength once (likely as Tsunade likes destroying the terrain to gain an advantage) He is quite a lot faster then Tsunade, better movement speed on top of a more hyped Shunshin which better feats.



> "Barely puts dents in rocks"? I think you mean blasts holes taller than Sasuke and deeper than Choji is fat into rocks _(1)_.
> 
> And that blast was not at all comparable to the statues at the Valley of the End.


Hm, I recalled them being smaller.

Well we can agree it was multitudes bigger then regular Chidori no?

(1)

Even if we attribute 50% or 25% or even 10% to Sasuke's Chidori, that is a pretty damn big difference.


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## Santoryu (Jan 9, 2014)

Sasuke.

His already impressive speed combined with the Sharingan's precognition would allow him to see through any of Tsunade's linear attacks with great clarity; Katsuyu can be manipulated just like Manda was, and even if Sasuke doesn't resort to that, it's slow compared to Sasuke. Tsunade can't do much from mid-range aside from summon Katsuyu, and CQC, the area she's strongest in from a combat point of view, is a bad idea against Sasuke due to reasons mentioned above, combine that with his Chodiri-variants, there's not a lot to debate. Unlike Madara, Sasuke isn't going to spare her after she gets sliced in half.


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## A Optimistic (Jan 12, 2014)

Can Tsunade even tough Sasuke? I recall Kabuto dodging all her punches.


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## Ersa (Jan 12, 2014)

Current Tsunade is faster then Rusty Tsunade.

That being said comparing Hebi Sasuke to Part I Kabuto is like comparing a cheetah to a slug.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 13, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> Shoulder/legs/arms will kill him over time perhaps but he can Oral Rebirth from that.



The main body is the easiest part to hit, and he'd die immediately after taking something like this _(1)_. There would be no Oral Rebirthing from anything.



> Partially holding off would imply you can defend against his onslaught initially but get beaten if you stay in



Getting beaten up is what you call it when someone gets disarmed and knocked through the air before all their friends have to jump in to save them.

Sasuke could not defend against the onslaught of Bee using his own weapons and not one Suigetsu had _just dropped a second ago_.



> Sasuke fended off most of his attacks initially then got kicked back.



If someone fought the olympic gold medalist and said because he didn't knock them out with the first two punches they "partially held him off", how stupid would that sound?

You can't just isolate the very first attacks and say "initially he fended off _most_", because the initial ones don't comprise the majority and these aren't two different fights.

In terms of pure close-quarters-combat _skill_ tier 5 out of 5 Tsunade is supposed to fare far worse than tier 3.5 out of 5 Sasuke who is in the same tier of skill as _Part 1 Kabuto_? Nonsensical.



> Kabuto basically gloated over an "incapacitated" Tsunade, Madara had Tsunade skewered like meat on a skewer yet he opted to belittle the Kages instead of throwing her corpse away.



Kabuto stating that Tsunade wouldn't be able to move isn't gloating. On the other hand, Sasuke telling everybody about the power of the Uchiha is blatant gloating.

Madara throwing the corpse away first would have been unnecessary, so it's no example of arrogance. Though I'd say Sasuke was living up to Deidara's rants about his arrogance when he willingly de-activated his Sharingan before believing his opponent dead despite still having the Chakra to bring forth something as colossal as Manda, which by the way effectively invalidates the notion that Sasuke didn't have the capacity to finish off Deidara.



> He's a careful, tactical fighter



One that rushed in against Team 7, Deidara and Tobi, Tobi again even after he had seen him survive a surprise _Amaterasu_, Bee, Ay and his bodyguards, Kakashi, etc.

That's almost everyone.



> He couldn't do the same against Orochimaru



Hitting Orochimaru's arms didn't stop him from blossoming the spear. His arms were _right next to his actual body_, and thus he would have still gotten hit if Sasuke had blossomed _Eisō_.

So yes he could, and there goes your reason to suggest he wouldn't do it.



> I'd imagine healing a punctured lung, heart and stomach would take longer.



Madara's _Susano'o_ blade is a whole lot thicker than _Eisō_ and it pierced Tsunade's stomach, pancreas, intestines, and spine; _Byakugō_ had already made the wound thinner than said branches of _Eisō_ would be by the time she crash-landed, and the data-book apparently considers it to be stupidly fast.

As such, I maintain that she'll be healing it that fast.



> no shinobi can really walk around with severely crippled internal organs.



And Tsunade seemingly just _leaps around unhindered and clocking Susano'os with severely crippled internal organs and a spinal cord_.



> Hm, he did want to kill him but chose the more tactical option in the end.



Sasuke didn't "choose" anything; he didn't have any other option once Orochimaru initiated the ritual. De-activating his Curse Mark when he thought Orochimaru was dead and re-activating it after finding out he was still planning a ritual is telling enough that Sasuke let down his guard.

Given that he de-activated his Sharingan after Orochimaru had been sealed he was likely about to de-activate his Sharingan when he thought he was dead but was affected by the neurotoxins before he actually got around to it.



> as far as he was concerned Tobi was a crony that didn't matter, something he won't think of a Sannin member.



Being interested in Deidara doesn't excuse his failure to notice his own blade meet no resistance and assume his other S-Rank opponent is down for the count. Given his sentiments about Orochimaru I don't think he cares that Tsunade is one of the Sannin and he won't care about her any more than he did Tobi since she wouldn't know where Itachi was, which is the only reason he cared any more about the talkative Deidara.



> Sasuke isn't stupid, he knows Tsunade is possibly the most skilled medic-nin to ever live. He'll know regular wounds won't cut it and despite the fact medical ninjutsu can't repair organs he knows her reputation.



I didn't say he is, but I will say he's less intelligent than all those other ninja I just named off, most notably gifted medic specialist Kabuto who had far more respect for the Sannin.

And I can see you didn't bother to actually click on the link in my previous post about repairing organs. It doesn't matter if he knows Tsunade is the most skilled medic ninja to ever live because the issue of medical ninjutsu being unable to repair organs _applies even to her_ as far as he knows and there is nothing to keep his eyes on her after she falls down pretending to be dead.



> Sasuke's tactical feats are superior to Deidara, Jiraiya and Kabuto.



Sasuke's tactical feats don't eclipse Kabuto's escape from Kakashi in the hospital and his intelligence rating in the data-book is lower. His tactics also don't eclipse Jiraiya's plan for capturing Preta, Human and Animal, and once again his intelligence rating in the data-book is lower.

Similar is true of Deidara, who walked into Sunagakure and turned its Kage's advantage into a disadvantage and later tricked Sasuke just like Sasuke tricked him, with Sasuke only ever managing to survive Deidara's tricks by virtue of lucking out in the elemental advantage draw. Plus, Deidara has a higher intelligence rating in the data-book.



> B is irrevelant honestly as if he'd hit anyone else bar a dojutsu user or a Perfect Jinn they would have been done.



It being two on one is inconsequential because it isn't like he's going to sit down and watch a dead body with no inclination to do so.

Bee doesn't become irrelevant because he was an exception to a general rule because Tsunade is as well. If Sasuke hit anyone without regeneration with his piercing/penetrative attacks they would be done as well.



> He didn't against Orochimaru, Tobi was still in his field of vision, Sasuke only stopped looking at B due to MS backlash, something that has no impact here.



He didn't turn his back against Orochimaru because he fell to his knees due to paralytic vapors; I'm pretty sure Sasuke simply heard the noise Tobi apparently made when he got up because the angle Sasuke was standing at wouldn't have left Tobi in his peripheral vision.

If he figured Tsunade was dead he'd gain nothing from sticking around, so naturally he'd turn his attention away from her and start on his way, at which point he'd succumb to a blindside.



> As for Danzo, Taka Sasuke is cocky, arrogant and doesn't think.



I think that's enough of overplaying this cocky excuse as if Hebi Sasuke didn't provoke someone to go on a rant about how cocky he was.



> I never said it was equal to Byakugō.



And I only said that you ought to feel bad for even bringing it up as if it means anything.

Only with the stimulation of Hinata's medicine, and not when Naruto's healing had been stated to have diminished. Compared to _Byakugō_, it may as well be _nothing_, especially _when it is explicitly noted to be even slower than it already was_. Additionally, Tsunade's physicality dwarfs base Naruto's to begin with, so add that all up and yes it seems far fetched to suggest _this Kage_ would be briefly paralyzed by it.



> True but remember he entered KN0 right after being hit by Nagashi? The same KN0 who regenerated a punctured lung?



No, because I'm pretty sure that's a different Kn0 by virtue of Naruto canonically already being weakened at the time and resisting Kurama's assistance on top of that.



> Paralyzing and knocking out a low Jounin class fighter and a mid-Jounin class fighter with basic regeneration is enough for me to suggest it temporarily halts Tsunade.



Except the basic regeneration is practically non-existent in the first place and was even worse off on that particular day upon which Naruto had been weakened by transforming into Kn4 and was resisting Kurama's assistance after that. Getting shot at lightspeed, which would have reduced either of those two to ribbons and paste, didn't temporarily halt Tsunade and prevent her from kicking Madara back into his Mokuton, so why should _Nagashi_, which isn't likely to paralyze her considering that she wasn't paralyzed by having her spinal cord run through on multiple occasions by Madara, prevent her from finishing her blow?

_Nagashi_ has never prevented anything like Tsunade from waltzing right through it.



> He can easily get distance with his speed.



I'm not about to support the notion that Sasuke, already in melee-range, will activate Nagashi, witness it fail, and then still have the time to escape from close-proximity for invoking his Curse Mark afterwards.



> that is a pretty damn big difference.



Did you consider that Sasuke's _Chidori_ is normally extremely concentrated and that it was being thinned out in that instance?


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## Shenanigans (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke was blitzing someone an entire tier more reflexive than Tsunade in the databooks. Tsunade's going to lose her head pretty quickly via Chidori blade, with or without genjutsu playing a role.
> 
> 
> ​



Deidara easily dodge Sasuke at every turn in that fight.


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## Ersa (Jan 13, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> The main body is the easiest part to hit, and he'd die immediately after taking something like this _(1)_. There would be no Oral Rebirthing from anything.


The main body is indeed the biggest target however on a faster opponent, with precognition? He may move so you hit his shoulder, arm rather then take a direct hit.



> Getting beaten up is what you call it when someone gets disarmed and knocked through the air before all their friends have to jump in to save them.
> 
> Sasuke could not defend against the onslaught of Bee using his own weapons and not one Suigetsu had _just dropped a second ago_.


Actually he stopped Suigetsu's sword with his own katana and kicked B in the chest. That's not getting your ass handed to you, granted his kick did little damage. 

This is indeed holding your own, blocking then anticipating and stopping his next move.



> If someone fought the olympic gold medalist and said because he didn't knock them out with the first two punches they "partially held him off", how stupid would that sound?
> 
> You can't just isolate the very first attacks and say "initially he fended off _most_", because the initial ones don't comprise the majority and these aren't two different fights.
> 
> In terms of pure close-quarters-combat _skill_ tier 5 out of 5 Tsunade is supposed to fare far worse than tier 3.5 out of 5 Sasuke who is in the same tier of skill as _Part 1 Kabuto_? Nonsensical.


If I blocked his first two punches then continued to block a few more but eventually he knocked him out because I took a risk then yes I'd say I held my own. It would actually take skill to anticipate and block someone more skilled then me.

Sasuke is clearly dodging and blocking his moves.

Then he gets knocked back but if I could dodge and block someone for 15+ blows then yeah I'd say I held my own briefly. And he did this while injured.

Yes Tsunade has more skill, but she doesn't have his speed nor his pre-cognition? And the only time she went into a fight handicapped (rusty) her performance was pretty poor (for someone hyped to be equal to Orochimaru who made Kakashi shit bricks) until she got her resolve post-Naruto.



> > Kabuto stating that Tsunade wouldn't be able to move isn't gloating. On the other hand, Sasuke telling everybody about the power of the Uchiha is blatant gloating.
> >
> > Madara throwing the corpse away first would have been unnecessary, so it's no example of arrogance. Though I'd say Sasuke was living up to Deidara's rants about his arrogance when he willingly de-activated his Sharingan before believing his opponent dead despite still having the Chakra to bring forth something as colossal as Manda, which by the way effectively invalidates the notion that Sasuke didn't have the capacity to finish off Deidara.
> 
> ...


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## Ersa (Jan 13, 2014)

> No, because I'm pretty sure that's a different Kn0 by virtue of Naruto canonically already being weakened at the time and resisting Kurama's assistance on top of that.


KN0 is KN0, even weakened KN0 should have a decent measure of regeneration if KN0 can regenerate a punctured lung.




> Except the basic regeneration is practically non-existent in the first place and was even worse off on that particular day upon which Naruto had been weakened by transforming into Kn4 and was resisting Kurama's assistance after that. Getting shot at lightspeed, which would have reduced either of those two to ribbons and paste, didn't temporarily halt Tsunade and prevent her from kicking Madara back into his Mokuton, so why should _Nagashi_, which isn't likely to paralyze her considering that she wasn't paralyzed by having her spinal cord run through on multiple occasions by Madara, prevent her from finishing her blow?
> 
> _Nagashi_ has never prevented anything like Tsunade from waltzing right through it.


With KN0, it's still there and a factor to be considered.



> Kishi's description of Nagashi.
> 
> This ninjutsu makes practical use of the "Chidori" by extending its attack range, in order to make use of the Lightning nature's special characteristic of "temporarily making the muscles of the touched person go stiff," and attempt to enfold multiple enemies. By releasing the "Chidori" in every direction, an electrical discharge flows from one's entire body. This allows one to attack everyone within a specific range. Also, when using this attack on a great number of enemies at once, it also effectively doubles as an instant defence.



If makes your muscles do go temporarily stiff, which should buy Sasuke a second to escape. I like to think Tsunade can't walk through a A-rank defensive jutsu cast by a fellow Kage level despite her tanky stats. 



> I'm not about to support the notion that Sasuke, already in melee-range, will activate Nagashi, witness it fail, and then still have the time to escape from close-proximity for invoking his Curse Mark afterwards.


But Nagashi won't fail, it'll give him just enough time to get away. It just won't blow her away like it did to others.



> Did you consider that Sasuke's _Chidori_ is normally extremely concentrated and that it was being thinned out in that instance?


Regular Chidori vs. Rasengan created a explosion that was tiny in comparison.


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