# Dr. Manhattan vs Beerus



## killfox (Apr 7, 2017)

Saw this fight on instagram andsaw 2 sides. One side said that Manhattanwins because Beerus cant destroy him, the other said hakai wins this for Beerus.

I personally believe hakai should give Beerus the win as well as it doesn't destroy it "erases" and i cant see Manhattan doing anything without a consciousness. 

Thoughts?


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## SSBMonado (Apr 7, 2017)

There was some talk about Manhattan having created the entire multiverse a while back, but I don't recall whether that was accepted. If it was, then that obviously makes this a stomp in his favor.
If not, then it depends on which of them is faster, and whether Manhattan has feats to suggest he can resist Hakai


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## killfox (Apr 7, 2017)

I heard something about that but haven't seen any evidence. Also wouldnt that be stupid as he was born a human and the multiverse already existed.

Also hakai destroyed a ghost. Manhattan should be able to survive any blast Beerus can dish out but hakai should be too much.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Apr 7, 2017)

Manhattan is involved in some way with the current superarc happening in DC, until that resolves itself then it's probably not going to be very clear how strong Manhattan is or is not.

Within the context of the original Watchmen he gets absolutely demolished, not sure about "before watchmen" though, I heard there was some stuff in that that upgraded him?


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## Cain1234 (Apr 7, 2017)

Manhatten removed 10 years from all the DC characters in the DC timeline.

He is Multiverses to the degree of the universe for 10 lightyears. Assuming the DC universe is moving at the speed of light.

Beerus's hakai create a multiversal timeline where Zamasu didn't get Hakai and created the Black timeline complete with a probally untouched Zeno.

Yo decide which is more impressive.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 7, 2017)

Mxy has described Manhattan(or implies him) as more powerful than him.


"Something way worse than me is gonna notice"
"Before the real trouble goes down"

BTW for the scan in question the above feat of Jon hurting Mxy with Superman and Lois' power is 99% likely PIS or not(he is more powerful than Superman as per Batman and Supes considers him faster than himself in a prior comic so perhaps he's like Franklin Richards or let's use the DBZ comparison of Gohan).

Anyway Nu 52 Lois and Clark merge with their Pre Flashpoint selves(two halves of a whole) which leads to a meh and cheesy power of love moment that has an effect


"Could repair what was broken"
"He didn't think Superman could do it either"
"Considering what has been set in motion"
"Him"

Focus on Mars which is Manhattan related.

Still best to wait. If he is stronger than Mxy he could blink Beerus and Super as a whole including Zeno out of existence. For now still need more.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Cain1234 (Apr 7, 2017)

Not really Myx didn't specify Manhatten was the one he was talking about. Though Abra Kababra, said something about Manhatten.

But Manhatten hasn't really shown what that level of feats. Also I take what ever myx to do to be an elaborate childish fake out. Lets just stick to his Watch Man incarnation.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## killfox (Apr 7, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Manhatten removed 10 years from all the DC characters in the DC timeline.
> 
> He is Multiverses to the degree of the universe for 10 lightyears. Assuming the DC universe is moving at the speed of light.
> 
> ...


The only reason hakai didnt destroy Zamasu in the other timeline was due to the time ring. Otherwise the Zamasu of trunkstimeline would have been destroyed as well.


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## Cain1234 (Apr 7, 2017)

killfox said:


> The only reason hakai didnt destroy Zamasu in the other timeline was due to the time ring. Otherwise the Zamasu of trunkstimeline would have been destroyed as well.


Or if Beerus wasn't an incompetent Hakaioshin. All he had to do was take 30 seconds to Hakai Zamasu in the Black timeline. Then do a do over to prevent Zamasu from killing Gowasu.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 7, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> *Not really Myx didn't specify Manhatten was the one he was talking abou*t. Though Abra Kababra, said something about Manhatten.
> 
> But Manhatten hasn't really shown what that level of feats. Also I take what ever myx to do to be an elaborate childish fake out. Lets just stick to his Watch Man incarnation.



Read my post again


> Mxy has described Manhattan(*or implies*) as more powerful than him



As I said he only implies it since Oz makes it clear Manhattan separated Clark and Lois into halves, joining them undoes a reality warp which Oz notes will make Manhattan notice, Mxy runs because he makes it clear someone will notice the result and the comic shows Mars while Oz referencing "him", Mxy is refering to the same person Oz is which is Manhattan. The Watchmen version of him was made irrelevant in power level when the prequel version beefed him up but I assume you mean his prequel and original Watchmen self. Mxy is not playing in that comic anymore, not the way he usually does. He gave up being a fun trickster and wanted to straight up spite Superman, his offer to leave was also to Jon not Superman. Some writer could handwave this as him lying but for now he is a more sadistic serious trickster. 

I did say best wait for more. If he is more powerful than Mxy, this becomes hilariously onesided in his favor but for now it is too early to make threads with this version of Manhattan.


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## Xhominid (Apr 7, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Or if Beerus wasn't an incompetent Hakaioshin. All he had to do was take 30 seconds to Hakai Zamasu in the Black timeline. Then do a do over to prevent Zamasu from killing Gowasu.



That's not how that works in DBZ. No matter what Beerus would have done, he just would have created another alternate timeline, just like he did when he killed Zamasu.
The only thing that would have happened is Beerus would have violated the rules two times rather than once.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 8, 2017)

Manhattan also killed Pandora who is Multiversal to Megaversal depending on your interpretation. He solos hard.


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 8, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> not sure about "before watchmen" though, I heard there was some stuff in that that upgraded him?



Gets around by moving the universe. Teleporting is for amoral tools who are ok with destroying people.
*
DM:* "No. That would constitute the destruction of the body. I warp space around me so that I don't move, space moves.
*Ozy: "*So you find it easier to move the universe... than to move yourself."
*DM:* "Not necessarily easier. Less destructive, let's say, At least to you."



>



"In using my power to bend reality, I ensured that my choices - my will, would form new pocket realities with every whim."

"I tell him about my travels through space and time...about accidentally becoming a quantum observer capable of creating new universes with even the most casual act."

"I tell him about destroying the very alternate universes I created"


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## jasongtrturbo (Apr 9, 2017)

Beerus wreck

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Apr 9, 2017)

Dr manhattan stomps . He killed pandora who merged three Multiverses and her aspects destroyed the multiverse million times over .

Pandora is also the force created by old gods who she unleashed evil in to the world which includes powerful interdimensional demons like Trigon and others etc


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## Amol (Apr 9, 2017)

DM changed entire DC Multiverse.
He should win.


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## TobiSan (Apr 9, 2017)

Amol said:


> DM changed entire DC Multiverse.
> He should win.



Speculation, it had never been shown to be Manhattan.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Toratorn (Apr 10, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Speculation, it had never been shown to be Manhattan.


It was heavily implied tho, including by writers thmsselves.


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 10, 2017)

The guy creates universes by accident, and can move whatever universe he is in several light-years in a couple seconds.

He doesn't need the Nu52/Rebirth feats to roll stomp Beerus.

As the quantum observer, just closing his eyes would create several several (nigh-infinite) quantum probabilities. One where Beerus attacks, one where he doesn't. One where he attacks from a distance, another from up close. In one he banters, in another he is silent.

DM can just pick the best probability and make it the only one. Most likely a reality where Beerus leaves a fatal opening. DM just has to exploit that opening and literally throw whole universes at Beerus. GG

EDIT
Oh. DM also exists simultaneously in his past present and future, and can see all three from any point in time.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 10, 2017)

Also he busted Pandora's ass. The same Pandora who is the fusion of the 7 Sins, each of which is capable of destroying the multiverse and has done so numerous times.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Apr 10, 2017)

from the scans it seems that he creates universes on accident the same way Beerus creates entire timelines on accident.

Meh idk. Beerus at full power could probably no sell universes being thrown at him honestly. Him using 1% of power was destroying the universe as collateral damage when he fought Goku.

Idk enough about Manhattan to really argue if he'd lose though.

If manhattan buff is this great then we should wait till Beerus let's loose at full power and displays more exotic abilities like hakai before we can determine a victor


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 10, 2017)

Manhattan killing Pandora:


It's obviously him. She blows up the same way all the people Manhattan kill in Watchmen do.

Shit Pandora can do:







If this refers to only the local Multiverse, which I doubt, but it is still a possibility, then each sin can destroy 52 universes. 52*7 = 364 universes, and all the sins are still only part of Pandora.

If this refers to the complete multiverse of the Bleed, highly likely, then this means that each sin can destroy infinite universes. Adding it up all together means that Pandora is a Megaversal character.

And Doctor Manhattan stomped Pandora.

Manhattan solos all of Dragon Ball so hard it's not even funny.

Reactions: Like 2


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## YoungChief (Apr 10, 2017)

Possibly a red herring, there's no confirmation that its Manhattan.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 10, 2017)

Please, it's obviously him. Doctor Manhattan has been implied so fucking much ever since Rebirth started that it's not even a mystery at this point.

Why else would they be throwing numerous Watchmen references all over like direct quotes from Watchmen, the Comedian's Smiley, Mr.Oz, etc. And represent both Metron and Pandora dying in explosions identical to Manhattan's, and show a godly blue hand eerily similar to Manhattan's warping the multiverse. Not to mention all the DC writers alluding to it.


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Apr 10, 2017)

how did manhattan become so powerful


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## Dr. White (Apr 10, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> how did manhattan become so powerful

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 10, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> how did manhattan become so powerful


The canonical answer to that, based on the prequels, is quantum physics. As the quantum observer, Manhattan's perception dictates reality and manifests the other quantum probabilities into a seperate reality. 

In terms of raw power, he _technically_ isn't any stronger than he was in the original comic or even the movie. He is shown "teleporting" himself and others as far away as Mars. Since no other explanation is given, the retcon from the prequels means he moved the universe to accomplish this; as he has already stated that this is how transports humans.


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## kluang (Apr 10, 2017)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> Manhattan killing Pandora:
> 
> 
> It's obviously him. She blows up the same way all the people Manhattan kill in Watchmen do.
> ...



We should pit Manhattan against Silver Surfer or whatever Marvel can dish out before crossing the Pacific and see what the best Japanese manga and anime can dish out.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 10, 2017)

>Multiversal to Megaversal character
>Against Silver Surfer

is this a joke?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## kluang (Apr 10, 2017)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> >Multiversal to Megaversal character
> >Against Silver Surfer
> 
> is this a joke?



I'm just saying pit him against whatever on his lvl Marvel have before hitting him with Seiyaverse or SMT


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## TobiSan (Apr 11, 2017)

ITT: Manhattan getting feats he has never shown, heavy speculation are not feats. It has been heavily implied and stated multiple times that Yahweh and Elaine are Omnipotents yet they aren't.

Also why am I seeing "Before Watchmen" scans here when the comic book is not even canon?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fang (Apr 11, 2017)

So is there definitive defined and explicitly shown proof said feats are Dr. M's or is it all just speculah and theorycrafting?


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## SSBMonado (Apr 11, 2017)

If it's so bloody obvious that those feats are Manhattan's, then exactly what's the point of keeping it a secret? Sounds like a setup for a switcheroo to me. Watch them take a cue from the Watchman movie and have another character attempt to frame Manhattan by blowing shit up in ways that are indicative of him.


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## Cain1234 (Apr 11, 2017)

Is manhatten really a bad guy? A dick true but a bad guy.


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 11, 2017)

TobiSan said:


> Also why am I seeing "Before Watchmen" scans here when the


Because I was unaware of this.

I assumed it was a direct prequel to the original graphic novel, my bad.

Edit

Did a quick Google:



> I didn’t have a lot of input in it. To me anything to do with the movies – as far as I’m concerned, what Alan and I did was the Watchmen graphic novel and a couple of illustrations that came out at the same time. *Everything else – the movie, the game, the [laugh] prequels – are really not canon. *They’re subsidiary. They’re not really Watchmen. They’re just something different.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 11, 2017)

Alan Moore no longer controls the rights to the character so what he says doesn't really matter.

Anyway this is a stomp, you could make it every Hakaishin, Angel, plus both Omni-Kings and it would make no difference.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 11, 2017)

Before Watchmen is canon, Alan Moore has no say in Watchmen anymore.

Even without the Pandora feat, Manhattan solos easily due to the Prequel feats that were posted here.


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## YoungChief (Apr 12, 2017)

I might be misunderstanding his powers here but, wouldn't the time ring protect from manhattans powers?


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## Adamant soul (Apr 12, 2017)

YoungChief said:


> I might be misunderstanding his powers here but, wouldn't the time ring protect from manhattans powers?



Beerus doesn't have a time ring, you're thinking of Goku Black. Besides that I doubt it could ward off the powers of someone like Manhattan.


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## Cain1234 (Apr 12, 2017)

Not if Dragon Ball Universe's law of time works by. In which the law of Causality is ignored and any changes will produce Multiverses of a similar probability (one where Beerus is dead  but Zamasu is alive"Future Trunks timeline") and also producing an opposing probability(One where Beerus never used Hakai, and Zamasu got a timering).



I think the Multiverses are produced from choice or observation naturally it's is not really measurable feat. Both He and Beerus may create a universe by the act of choice and both have to face the consequences of  their choice. 


So I vote they both a choose to create a timeline where neither fight and go back to their respective trademarks.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Apr 12, 2017)

Has anyone actually seen Beerus use a significant amount of effort to accomplish anything? Jesus F Christ, folks!

So this thread is basically Dr.Manhatten-In All His Glory vs Beerus-Hogtied? What is the obsession with the virtually unknown Super characters? What's next, the Zeno from 4th timeline? YES! That's a great recipe for a fight!

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Dislike 3


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## Juub (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Has anyone actually seen Beerus use a significant amount of effort to accomplish anything? Jesus F Christ, folks!
> 
> So this thread is basically Dr.Manhatten-In All His Glory vs Beerus-Hogtied? What is the obsession with the virtually unknown Super characters? What's next, the Zeno from 4th timeline? YES! That's a great recipe for a fight!


A clash between Beerus and Champa would have destroyed two universes. Beerus even at full power is likely Universal+.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Apr 12, 2017)

Juub said:


> A clash between Beerus and Champa would have destroyed two universes. . .


As collateral, between 2 characters with incomprehensible ki control. You just told me they will destroy 2 universes without trying, which brings us back to the current dilemma.


Juub said:


> Beerus even at full power is likely Universal+.


WTF does "Universal+" even mean?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Keollyn (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Has anyone actually seen Beerus use a significant amount of effort to accomplish anything? Jesus F Christ, folks!
> 
> So this thread is basically Dr.Manhatten-In All His Glory vs Beerus-Hogtied? What is the obsession with the virtually unknown Super characters? What's next, the Zeno from 4th timeline? YES! That's a great recipe for a fight!



This is such a tired retort. I recommend you just sig this cause it starting to become one-liner level for you.

Who cares if Beerus didn't use MAXIMUM EFFORT, he still did a significant amount of stuff to be usable in a vs. fight. You don't exclude characters with feats because "they dun try mucho"

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Clutch (Apr 12, 2017)

It also doesn't help that the brothers don't actually despise each other, so any fight they'd have wouldn't be to the death or even all that serious. 

Add that to all the insane goal post repositioning  and you have a set of horrible characters for hypothetical battles.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Perpetrator Rex (Apr 12, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> This is such a tired retort. I recommend you just sig this cause it starting to become one-liner level for you.
> 
> Who cares if Beerus didn't use MAXIMUM EFFORT, he still did a significant amount of stuff to be usable in a vs. fight. You don't exclude characters with feats because "they dun try mucho"


Dude, WTF are you even talking about? I never said anyone had to use max effort.

Do you watch DBS? Do you even know who Beerus is? He uses so little effort, it is *clearly* an issue.

Reactions: Dislike 6


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## Esano (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> As collateral, between 2 characters with incomprehensible ki control. You just told me they will destroy 2 universes without trying, which brings us back to the current dilemma.
> 
> WTF does "Universal+" even mean?




It means the amount of energy needed to destroy a universe _plus _an unquantifiable amount.

Maybe 10x Universal since
Half-Universal Base < ssj1 < ssj2 < ssj3 < Ssb < Ssb kaioken (10x higher)<FP Beerus
But basically the plus is for all the extra arrows.
Low Balling we got casual Universal Beerus- Zeno 16 Universe+ level

But still, with Dr. M's feats in watchmen, the prequels, and DC proper, he should be well above Universal and be Multi-Universal to a higher degree than beerus with much better hax , should easily take him out tbh.
A straight fight idk, I'm not sure how many universes in raw power M has.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Gordo solos (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Dude, WTF are you even talking about? I never said anyone had to use max effort.
> 
> Do you watch DBS? Do you even know who Beerus is? He uses so little effort, it is *clearly* an issue.


This is like complaining about using Saitama in vs debates


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## Perpetrator Rex (Apr 12, 2017)

Do you people actually try and seriously debate Saitama battles, too? Holy fucking shit.

I would love to see how  that "debate" goes down. Lol


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## Esano (Apr 12, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> This is like complaining about using Saitama in vs debates


Maybe not the best example/way to say it is ok.
Since Saitama debates often turn into shit about not using his full power, or how he is a gag character etc.


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## Dr. White (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Dude, WTF are you even talking about? I never said anyone had to use max effort.
> 
> Do you watch DBS? Do you even know who Beerus is? He uses so little effort, it is *clearly* an issue.


No it's not a problem. We've seen Beerus be more than absolutely casual, and you only go off of what is shown. If you don't like it don't read vs threads with him in it until he gets more feats. Quite simple.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Apr 12, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> No it's not a problem. We've seen Beerus be more than absolutely casual .



No you haven't. Guy's 30+ times more powerful than the one guy he had an extended battle with. Idk why people just can't wait until something meaningful happens. You know it's coming.



Dr. White said:


> you only go off of what is shown. If you don't like it don't read vs threads with him in it until he gets more feats. Quite simple.



Sounds goofy af, but your rules. So fair enough.


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## Dr. White (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> No you haven't. Guy's 30+ times more powerful than the one guy he had an extended battle with.


Casual Beerus was him during the movie where he was beating people up with chopsticks. The whole universal feat comes from Beerus being slightly pushed so yes that is > casual. No matter what powercreep or revelations come to light.




> Sounds goofy af, but your rules. So fair enough.


It's not goofy it's logical. Burden of proof and all that jazz. Dealing with ambiguities is goofy. We don't know how much stronger it would make beerus, what his limits are, etc. So you can easily just accept NLF. Same thing with Saitama. Which is why there are labeled as "X level+" and we usually give them some leeway with people who are close to said stats. In this case Beerus is just outclassed if those feats are legit for the Dr.


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## Perpetrator Rex (Apr 12, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Casual Beerus was him during the movie where he was beating people up with chopsticks. The whole universal feat comes from Beerus being slightly pushed so yes that is > casual. No matter what powercreep or revelations come to light.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not goofy it's logical. Burden of proof and all that jazz. Dealing with ambiguities is goofy. We don't know how much stronger it would make beerus, what his limits are, etc. So you can easily just accept NLF. Same thing with Saitama. Which is why there are labeled as "X level+" and we usually give them some leeway with people who are close to said stats. In this case Beerus is just outclassed if those feats are legit for the Dr.


I disagree, Everything Beerus has done is casual. From chopsticks to trading with Goku.

Also, I'm not insisting on Beerus being uber powerful. Just pointing out how silly it is that he's in debates, at all. The logic being used is painfully thin.


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## Keollyn (Apr 12, 2017)

You feel it's silly to debate a character that has feats that are casual? Why not feel silly debating fictional characters at all?

Because really, if you're gonna see something as simple as comparing two fictional opponents from what we've *currently* observed as silly, might as well just go the whole nine yards and see the whole thing as silly.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Not if Dragon Ball Universe's law of time works by. In which the law of Causality is ignored and any changes will produce Multiverses of a similar probability (one where Beerus is dead  but Zamasu is alive"Future Trunks timeline") and also producing an opposing probability(One where Beerus never used Hakai, and Zamasu got a timering).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The difference is that in DB, anyone can create a new timeline by going back in time and changing something, or influencing someone to change something. The timeline only split because Trunks traveled back and influenced Beerus to kill Zamasu.

Dr. Manhattan can create and destroy new timelines at will, and cause them to happen any way he wants. He can literally take any possibility from any timeline and switch it with the current one, then destroy the old timeline so it never existed. That's hardly comparable at all. He could have undone all of the damage Zamasu did, and made it so there was only one timeline where Zamasu was never even born. Even the Omni-King can't affect timelines like that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Gordo solos (Apr 12, 2017)

Perpetrator Rex said:


> Do you people actually try and seriously debate Saitama battles, too? Holy fucking shit.
> 
> I would love to see how  that "debate" goes down. Lol


There's a shit ton of people in fiction who haven't shown their true limits yet but it doesn't stop people from putting them in battles. Neither Beerus or Saitama is getting a pass



Esano said:


> Maybe not the best example/way to say it is ok.
> Since Saitama debates often turn into shit about not using his full power, or how he is a gag character etc.


Saitama's obsessed fanboys are fucking retarded

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 5


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## Juub (Apr 12, 2017)

I kinda agree it's dumb to use a character who hasn't shown his full power in debates as it defeats the purpose but if we only take in account the highest feats they've displayed it's alright I guess.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Endless Mike (Apr 12, 2017)

Juub said:


> I kinda agree it's dumb to use a character who hasn't shown his full power in debates as it defeats the purpose but if we only take in account the highest feats they've displayed it's alright I guess.



You should have been around in the old days, when all we knew of Mihawk was his brief appearance in the Don Krieg arc.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Juub (Apr 12, 2017)

Endless Mike said:


> You should have been around in the old days, when all we knew of Mihawk was his brief appearance in the Don Krieg arc.


Oh I was. Some people at the time thought Doflamingo was as strong as a Yonko. We all know how that turned out.


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## jasongtrturbo (Apr 13, 2017)

Beerus stomp

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Apr 13, 2017)

so is manhattan a reality warper? like what is his actual power and why can he causally destroy multiversals? what is the source of all that infinite amount of power?

This seems like an entirely different person than the guy from the actual movie


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## Crimson Dragoon (Apr 13, 2017)

>movie

nice meme

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Apr 13, 2017)

cool. can I get my question answered now?


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 13, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> cool. can I get my question answered now?


Bro....

Comics, fam. Where else did you expect to get feats for a *comic book* character. Scans have been posted already.


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## killfox (Apr 13, 2017)

So i see a lot of speculation. Is anything stated eno8gh to assume Manhattan can survive hakai? Hes never dealt with an attack that could erase his consciousness before


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Apr 13, 2017)

Sloth said:


> Bro....
> 
> Comics, fam. Where else did you expect to get feats for a *comic book* character. Scans have been posted already.



From what I'm gathering he can simply choose the reality he wants based on understanding the universe or some shit.

It's vague enough for some one who doesn't read the comic to get more context of his powerset from readers who do


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## Amae (Apr 13, 2017)

Wow, you're obnoxious.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 13, 2017)

Being fair Manhattan is also like billions of times more powerful now. Under Moore he had limits and was overpowered within range of his pseudo real life Earth. Then Before Watchmen where Manhattan can break one universe into multiple timelines/universes then rearrange them back to give free choice and I recall he made multiple universes on Mars near the end where he kept them in craters?Been a while. Now in DC Geoff Johns made him interfere with Barry's time travel in Flashpoint, supposedly behind DC getting darker since Identity Crisis, split Lois and Clark into 2 halves each which lead to some altered timeline for them that recently got undone upon merging, killed off Pandora, scare Mxy etc.

Featwise he did something during the interval when Barry was trying to undo Flashpoint, killed Metron the New god, killed Pandor, split Lois and Clark into halves and is written to take blame for DC's decades of bad writing. I'm not sure if those along with his Before Watchmen stuff is enough for this. Hypewise he seems above Mxy now but comics and hype rarely end well when actual feats come.

He gets his Before Watchmen stuff and some of his DC feats but anything else is open for debate, his biggest feat on what he did during Barry's interim of undoing Flashpoint is unknown and whether he needed Barry to do so or not to do it himself.  He is atleast universal at bare minimum but is implied to be Multiversal on the scale of the whole DC Multiverse which is 52 to Infinite depending on writer.

Fanfic Manhattan vs Fanfic Dragonball should be left alone for a while till he does more.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 2


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 13, 2017)

@Tranquil Fury 

Considering he killed the Megaversal Pandora, he is above Mxy.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 13, 2017)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> @Tranquil Fury
> 
> Considering he killed the Megaversal Pandora, he is above Mxy.



What makes Pandora megaversal?


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm curious about that myself.


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 13, 2017)

I explained in my previous post. Pandora is the combined form of the seven sins, with each sin being an aspect of herself. As was shown and stated in the storyline, each sin is capable of destroying the entire multiverse by themselves.

The Multiverse in the New 52 is repeatedly stated to hold Infinite Universes, only the local Multiverse has 52 universes.

So 1/7 of Pandora can destroy infinite universes. Adding up all seven sins together makes up Megaversal Pandora.

Though if want to lowball things, she is Multiversal+

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Edward Nygma (Apr 13, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> It's vague enough for some one who doesn't read the comic to get more context of his powerset from readers who do


There are exactly 4 issues of Manhattan's BWM story. The scans I posted should be the entirety of the explanation given. 

. Makes a good read before bed.


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## Fang (Apr 13, 2017)

Yeah that would be multiversal to a higher degree, not megaversal though.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Neutral 1


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 13, 2017)

At least Multiversal+ then, since Multiversal+ is busting infinite universes and 1/7th of Pandora can do that.


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## DoomTM (Apr 13, 2017)

Doctor Manhattan's recently been confirmed and implied to be Stronger than Mister Mxyzptlk, And It's good treatment for a character from an industry defining title regardless of how Alan Moore feels about it while writing erotica now


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## YoungChief (Apr 13, 2017)

Where is the confirmation? If it turns out its NOT Manhattan you all are going to look really silly

Also what the fuck does that scan have to do with anything? It's not Manhattan talking to Supes its some kryptonian tech


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## DoomTM (Apr 13, 2017)




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## SSBMonado (Apr 13, 2017)

So is THAT reference confirmed to be about Manhattan?


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## YoungChief (Apr 13, 2017)

Nope. If you want to read the comic yourself 



Have at it


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## Keollyn (Apr 13, 2017)

Juub said:


> I kinda agree it's dumb to use a character who hasn't shown his full power in debates as it defeats the purpose but if we only take in account the highest feats they've displayed it's alright I guess.



But it isn't dumb. It's only dumb to use characters that have little to no feats (as pointed out with the Mihawk example), but there is no problem using characters with substantial amount of feats.

Fei from Xenogears, for all his power, never used his full power. Does it make sense to not use him because of that?

Basically, people are confusing characters not using their full power, with those who own minuscule amount of feats. The latter is understandably silly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Juub (Apr 13, 2017)

Keollyn said:


> But it isn't dumb. It's only dumb to use characters that have little to no feats (as pointed out with the Mihawk example), but there is no problem using characters with substantial amount of feats.
> 
> Fei from Xenogears, for all his power, never used his full power. Does it make sense to not use him because of that?
> 
> Basically, people are confusing characters not using their full power, with those who own minuscule amount of feats. The latter is understandably silly.


Some argue Beerus still never used anything close to his full power and Saitama mostly has casual feats. You could argue the amount of power they used was too small to be uses in debates but meh. Doesn't really matter to me as long as we agree to the same rules.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (Apr 13, 2017)

Megaverse  is a nonsense fodder term used by marvel wankers to hype their characters. It's no different than a multiverse. Dr manhattan is not only stronger then mxy who created multiverse sized structure within infinite planet in rebirth but he also stomped pandora who merged three multiversal timelines during flashpoint with Barry . He solos all of dbs combined.

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Dislike 1


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 13, 2017)

MatthewSchroeder said:


> I explained in my previous post. Pandora is the combined form of the seven sins, with each sin being an aspect of herself. As was shown and stated in the storyline, each sin is capable of destroying the entire multiverse by themselves.
> 
> The Multiverse in the New 52 is repeatedly stated to hold Infinite Universes, only the local Multiverse has 52 universes.
> 
> ...



Where was this shown?Why did she need Barry to do Flashpoint?It has been years since I read Flashpoint unless this is from Trinity of Sin which I never read. I'd like to see scans of Multiversal sins for future reference/knowledge in dealing with them, also helpful for other users. If she is Multiversal to megaversal then Manhattan nuking her means he stomps this easily.

Atleast name and/or issue number for me to check out when I have time?


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## MatthewSchroeder (Apr 13, 2017)

I already showed it.



MatthewSchroeder said:


> Manhattan killing Pandora:
> 
> 
> It's obviously him. She blows up the same way all the people Manhattan kill in Watchmen do.
> ...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 13, 2017)

My bad, fair enough.


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## Worldbreaker (Apr 13, 2017)

Pandora being multiversal is really iffy to me, I recently read Trinity of Sin: Pandora, and I find it weird that a character that is multiversal needs guns and has trouble fighting vampires, Vandal Savage and Giganta

From what I read the Sins are not multiversal, they are just spirits that can influence people and caused their destruction (Saw this in Trinity and the Shazam), they never one-shot destroy the universe 

And even when Pandora "merged" the universe she needed assistance from Flash and what is speculated to be Manhattan 

I personally believe we should wait for it to be revealed who is doing all of this (even though is likely going to be Manhattan), who knows maybe DC will pull a last second twist

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blade (Apr 13, 2017)

@Nevermind


Big Koumei Pump wants to have a chat with Doctor Mancuntttan, once again

what do you think?


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## Endless Mike (Apr 14, 2017)

killfox said:


> So i see a lot of speculation. Is anything stated eno8gh to assume Manhattan can survive hakai? Hes never dealt with an attack that could erase his consciousness before



FFS. The only two things he's ever killed with that are a guy way weaker than him, and a ghost. Dr. Manhattan is neither of those. Using the NLF against someone who makes the Omni-King look like a gnat in comparison is retarded.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Apr 14, 2017)

So how powerful is Dr. Manhattan now..universal?


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## Dreams of Tommorow (Apr 14, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Pandora being multiversal is really iffy to me, I recently read Trinity of Sin: Pandora, and I find it weird that a character that is multiversal needs guns and has trouble fighting vampires, Vandal Savage and Giganta
> 
> From what I read the Sins are not multiversal, they are just spirits that can influence people and caused their destruction (Saw this in Trinity and the Shazam), they never one-shot destroy the universe
> 
> ...



@Endless Mike could you provide some context for this?


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## Cain1234 (Apr 14, 2017)

What defines of universal+ level durability. Is having or creating, sustaining and destroying a universe equal to universal level durability/resistance.

What defines of Multiversal level durability. Is having or creating, sustaining and destroying  potentially infinite number of universes equal to multiversal level durability/resistance.

Why is a Multiverse set born from causality change and destruction (beerus) not equal to a universe(an Earth) created from quantum observations (Dr Manhatten).

Neither can do anything, though if Manhatten is able to kill Shin. Then he wins, Beerus HAS a weakness. It is a dirty one but still a weakness.

The only weakness for Dr Manhatten I can see is you force a time paradox on him, by which I mean have Whis go back in time to save Dr Manhatten so that he never became Dr Manhatten.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nevermind (Apr 14, 2017)

Blade said:


> @Nevermind
> 
> 
> Big Koumei Pump wants to have a chat with Doctor Mancuntttan, once again
> ...



DOCTOR MANCUNTTAN, LISTEN UP YOU BLUE TRASH. YOU DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES TO GO ONE ON ONE WITH THE GENETIC FLOWER. YOU DON'T HAVE THE SIZE, THE STRENGTH, OR THE SMARTS TO BATTLE ME. AND YOU ADD THAT THING ON YOUR HEAD MAHAMAGANDHI WHATEVER IT IS? YOU, THE CHANCES OF WINNIN' DRASTIC GO DOWN.

YOU SEE? AT BACKLASH, I'M GONNA TEACH YOU AND THE WHOLE WORLD THAT SIZE DOES MATTER, BITCH.

SO THIS GOES TO ALL MY FREAKS OUT THERE, HOLLA IF YOU HEAR ME!

Reactions: Funny 5 | Winner 1


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## Endless Mike (Apr 15, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> What defines of universal+ level durability. Is having or creating, sustaining and destroying a universe equal to universal level durability/resistance.
> 
> What defines of Multiversal level durability. Is having or creating, sustaining and destroying  potentially infinite number of universes equal to multiversal level durability/resistance.
> 
> ...



WTF are you talking about? Beerus didn't create anything. All he did was cause a timeline to split which could be done by anyone with knowledge of the future, based on how time works in DB. Trunks did the same thing when he traveled back in time and warned everyone about the androids.

Hell, Bulma could have done it instead, by taking the time machine back and changing the past. Are you going to say that Bulma can beat Dr. Manhattan now?

Dr. Manhattan can create and control infinite timelines and warp them to his will. He could make Beerus simply cease to exist with a thought, along with the entire DB multiverse and all of its timelines.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Endless Mike (Apr 15, 2017)

Dreams of Tommorow said:


> @Endless Mike could you provide some context for this?



I haven't actually read that stuff and am arguing mostly based on the prequel feats.


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## YoungChief (Apr 15, 2017)

Endless Mike said:


> I haven't actually read that stuff and am arguing mostly based on the prequel feats.


Do you think a time ring like the one Zamasu has could protect against Manhattans shenanigans


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## Endless Mike (Apr 15, 2017)

YoungChief said:


> Do you think a time ring like the one Zamasu has could protect against Manhattans shenanigans



Of course not. All it does is prevent something that would normally change one timeline from doing so and instead cause it to split off into multiple timelines, but Dr. M can merge and destroy timelines at will. Not to mention he can simply disintegrate the wearer in the here and now.


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## YoungChief (Apr 15, 2017)

I remember him as being the guy that couldn't even stop all of Russia's nukes, and thought air turning into gold would be amazing.

Those newer comics beefed him the fuck up I guess, geez. Thanks for answering my question though


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## DoomTM (Apr 19, 2017)

Whats pandora's durability feats like?


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## DoomTM (Apr 19, 2017)

Doesn't really matter what her offensive capabilities are. Durability =\= DC.


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## Ultra Instinct Vegito (Apr 19, 2017)

Manhattan's profile needs to be updated then since it said he lost to  silver surfer.


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## Endless Mike (Apr 23, 2017)

bmos89 said:


> Manhattan's profile needs to be updated then since it said he lost to  silver surfer.



That was like 10 years ago before the prequel comics came out.


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## LoveLessNHK (Apr 23, 2017)

killfox said:


> I heard something about that but haven't seen any evidence. Also wouldn't that be stupid as he was born a human and the multiverse already existed.



I wish that's how logic worked in comics, but sadly, it is not. I cannot make claims as to whether or not Dr. Manhattan did or did not create the multiverse, but in DC Comics (Which feels redundant, doesn't DC stand for Detective Comics? So saying DC Comics is like saying Detective Comics Comics? Idk.) Barry Allen's interaction with the Particle Accelerator explosion turned him into the Flash as well as created the Speed Force (through time and space, meaning that at that point, it was created, and was created through all time, meaning it then existed before it was created, because lol time).

So, would it be stupid? Yes. But could it be true? I've read weirder things, is all I'll say.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## 1337RedGlitchFox (Apr 23, 2017)

Beerus has a set (ignoring that hes forever above Goku until the story says so) power in the fact that hes below whis. 
Of course, that's another guy who hasnt shown much, but go up the ladder where you see Zeno being the be all end all and youll see the technical limit of the angels and gods of destruction.

Considering Beerus gets all shocked about 6 universes getting vaped by Zeno, it's safe(ish) to assume that beerus isnt going too high above universal or below 6 universes.

Pretty sure someone else has something to say about that, but I just wanted to say that Beerus while Beerus has never shown his full power, it's not like his limits haven't been constantly shown and thrown into the story. Including killing Shin.


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## Huey Freeman (Apr 24, 2017)

This thread is exactly how I'd picture it.


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## TheManWhoLaughs (May 4, 2017)

Dr manhattan stomps :


Interview confirmation that pandora merged DC, wildstorm and vertigo:



The speed force encompasses all the creation
this thread


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## Gordo solos (May 4, 2017)

TheManWhoLaughs said:


> Dr manhattan stomps :
> 
> 
> Interview confirmation that pandora merged DC, wildstorm and vertigo:
> ...


Still gets a Dragon Fist through the chest by GT Goku


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## Gordo solos (May 4, 2017)

@MusubiKazesaru and on that note, I think this thread is done here


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## Dreams of Tommorow (May 5, 2017)

Worldbreaker said:


> Pandora being multiversal is really iffy to me, I recently read Trinity of Sin: Pandora, and I find it weird that a character that is multiversal needs guns and has trouble fighting vampires, Vandal Savage and Giganta
> 
> From what I read the Sins are not multiversal, they are just spirits that can influence people and caused their destruction (Saw this in Trinity and the Shazam), they never one-shot destroy the universe
> 
> ...



Is anyone going to provide some context for this?


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