# Jozu vs. M3



## trance (Sep 11, 2013)

Location: MarineFord

Intel: Full for M3, none for Jozu

Distance: 10m

Mindset: IC


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## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

M3 win 

10char


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## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Jozu wins. I'm not downplaying the M3 but they're not beating the world's strongest slash (though it wasn't at point blank and Jozu actually had to try to block it) They won't get past his diamond defence.


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## Goomoonryong (Sep 11, 2013)

If Luffy does beat Dofla this arc he could give Jozu a hard fight by himself maybe even win. But this hasn't happened yet so going by feats ill give it to the M3 extreme difficulty.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 11, 2013)

Zoro + Luffy duo this


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## Great Potato (Sep 11, 2013)

Teamwork isn't going to do much good if they can't get past his defenses.


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## barreltheif (Sep 11, 2013)

I think any two of the M3 will be enough.


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## Marcο (Sep 11, 2013)

Jozu wins.


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## Imagine (Sep 11, 2013)

Jozu pummels them.


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## Sablés (Sep 11, 2013)

M3 win mid-diff


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## Sanji (Sep 11, 2013)

Jozu high diff.


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## Language of Life (Sep 11, 2013)

We really need to see the M3 go all out. People seem to be divided on how strong they really are.

By now i would think that all 3 should be able to beat him. But then i don't know if anything they have shown can break the defense that was capable of leaving Jozu unscathed after a direct confrontation with Mihawks slash.


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## DeathPony (Sep 12, 2013)

Jozu High Diff 

They're not breakingthrough his defense...get real. Most of his trouble will be catching the M3 who are just as or even faster than him. Sanji gets his legs broken, Marimo gets his swords cracked and Luffy gets thrown into a river.


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## Freechoice (Sep 12, 2013)

Diamonds are flammable. 

Hell's Memories.


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

as this is a thread based on assumption.

any of the 2 M3 member is enough to beat Jozu


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## Shanks (Sep 12, 2013)

I personally don't think DD is at Jozo level... 

Jozo is a very bad match for Luffy and Sanji, though Zoro might be able to hurt him. I say M3 combine attack high diff.


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## TheShadowGekkoMoriah (Sep 12, 2013)

well if ice was able to go through the diamond i dont see why fire shouldent


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## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

The idea that the M3 together over the course of an entire fight couldn't inflict as much damage as a single air slash from Mihawk is ridiculous. There is no single attack that's stronger than what the M3 can use over the course of a fight, let alone a mere air slash.


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## Dunno (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm thinking M3 mid-diff, but we'll see when/if Luffy defeats Doflamingo.


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## RF (Sep 12, 2013)

Jozu.

Doflamingo is already taking a dump on Law, and Jozu is probably stronger than him. Considering that, and the fact that he has a near inpenetrable diamond defense, I can't see how the Monster Trio is supposed to win this.


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Jozu.
> 
> *Doflamingo is already taking a dump on Law*, and Jozu is probably stronger than him. Considering that, and the fact that he has a near inpenetrable diamond defense, I can't see how the Monster Trio is supposed to win this.



i just love how u completely ignore the fact that a fucking admiral was there helping doflamingo


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## NO (Sep 12, 2013)

M3 low-diffs. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji spamming their strongest move with haki equipped while Jozu can not react offensively shows the clear outcome of this fight. If that wasn't enough, an admiral level fighter and a near-admiral level fighter not being able to kill a Luffy-level fighter is more evidence that Jozu has no idea what he's in for.


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## RF (Sep 12, 2013)

> i just love how u completely ignore the fact that a fucking admiral was there helping doflamingo



No he wasn't. Fujitora was attacking alone at first. Now Doflamingo is attacking alone, and Law can't do a damn thing against it.


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## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

Mixed opinions on this.

Everything from M3 low diffs and extreme diffs to Jozu low diffs and high diffs.


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## Vengeance (Sep 12, 2013)

If all of the M3 can't take on Jozu now, then I would be really disappointed.
How the hell could Luffy beat DD then.


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## Soca (Sep 12, 2013)

Nothing suggests either of them can break through his defences. Zoro can't cut diamond, Sanji cracked a bone fighting Vergo and Luffy hasn't shown an attack that can do damage to someone on Jozus level. Elephant gattling could probably put a hurt on him but that's a long shot since it takes prep and Jozu would likely have finished with them after a good while. So Jozu mid difficulty.


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## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

Jozu High-Diff


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 12, 2013)

Of course Jozu wins, even though with mid-high to high diff.


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> *No he wasn't*. Fujitora was attacking alone at first. Now Doflamingo is attacking alone, and Law can't do a damn thing against it.



so an admiral attacking and make Law bleed first did not _help_ doflamingo at all ?


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## Lawliet (Sep 12, 2013)

If the M3 combined cannot beat Jozu, then wtf are they going to do up against a yonkou. There is no way they would jump from " weaker than Jozu combined to match a yonkou crew " not even in three arcs.

True, we don't know how they are going to beat a yonkou or when is it happening, but put all this aside for now.. If the M3 cannot beat Jozu in a teamwork effort, then fuck, they might as well go their separate ways lol


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## Soca (Sep 12, 2013)

I think you're underestimating just how great Jozus defence is. On top of just being a diamond man he also has coa, what feats have the M3 shown that can break through such a force?


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Marcelle.B said:


> I think you're underestimating just how great Jozus defence is. On top of just being a diamond man he also has coa, *what feats have the M3 shown* that can break through such a force?



thats the thing. M3 did not show how strong they r/can be.i am just choosing common sense over feats.
If the whole M3(in other word whole SH) cant beat a guy who is equal to Doflamingo(give or take) then they should leave dressrosa now and start training few years more.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

We're not comparing ki levels here. Jozu and Doflamingo are two different people. Where Jozu's power lies in his brutal strength and being nearly impossible to damage, Doflamingo's lies in being utterly lethal and having the ability to deal a decisive blow at the slightest opening or misstep. It's not as dangerous to take a hit from Jozu. But on the flipside, when you land a hit on Doflamingo he actually gets damaged. Just because the M. Trio may be able to beat Doflamingo doesn't automatically mean they would beat Jozu because it's about overcoming two different kinds of powers. Beating Jozu factually requires outputting sheer power/defense breaking attacks well above Mihawk testing Whitebeard.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

^So I guess this means marco can't beat jozu because he doesn't have enough strength or the right type of power to beat him


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

Marco has more than proven that he has the physical power to beat Jozu.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

So marco is physically stronger then jozu? That's a new one. I don't remember any such feats.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

Sending Admirals flying shows enough physical power to damage Jozu.

Not that it even matters. Marco is Whitebeard's 1st and Jozu is the 2nd. Him not being able to beat Jozu is impossible.


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## Bitty (Sep 12, 2013)

Marco has shown the physical strength & haki to break through an admiral's guard & send them flying.
He has the portrayal of being White beard's first mate, clashing with all 3 admirals no problem, & the hype of being compared to the other yonkou even with a crippled crew. 

Even if it's just outlasting Jozu......Marco would win.

The M3 has no where near this type of leverage.


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> We're not comparing ki levels here. Jozu and Doflamingo are two different people. Where Jozu's power lies in his brutal strength and being nearly impossible to damage, Doflamingo's lies in being utterly lethal and having the ability to deal a decisive blow at the slightest opening or misstep. It's not as dangerous to take a hit from Jozu. But on the flipside, when you land a hit on Doflamingo he actually gets damaged. Just because the M. Trio may be able to beat Doflamingo doesn't automatically mean they would beat Jozu because it's about overcoming two different kinds of powers. Beating Jozu factually requires outputting sheer power/defense breaking attacks well above Mihawk testing Whitebeard.



i was just using Doflamingo as an example as its related to storyline at this moment
I will not be surprised at all if Zoro is able to cut Diamond now or/and M3 CoA is strong enough to hurt Jozu or/and M3 teamwork is good enough to catch Jozu off guard.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

You're free to think Luffy, Zoro and Sanji outputs more power than Mihawk's slash on Whitebeard intended to test the strength of the world's strongest man.

Just don't expect much agreement.


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## Extravlad (Sep 12, 2013)

Fujitora is taking a dump on Law, not Doflamingo.
Luffy will beats DD alone.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> Marco is Whitebeard's 1st and Jozu is the 2nd. Him not being able to beat Jozu is impossible.





			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> We're not comparing ki levels here



Self contradiction?


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

No :/ Say something serious if you want a serious response.


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> You're free to think Luffy, Zoro and Sanji outputs more power than Mihawk's slash on Whitebeard intended to test the strength of the world's strongest man.
> 
> Just don't expect much agreement.



Mihawk's air slash.
If u remember correctly even daz bone stopped one of those air slash (weaker version) but in close range Mihawk just cut him up casually.

i am not expecting other people to agree with me. majority is not always right


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

I am serious. 

First you say "we can't compare ki levels. They have different types of powers." 

Then you say marco is > then jozu simply because of higher rank.

That's a blatant self contradiction.

Secondly marco didn't kick the admirals to the moon. How does that portray him physically stronger then jozu? Jozu made aokiji bleed.

Keep in mind that I do believe marco can beat jozu. But I'm using your logic according to which marco shouldn't be able to beat jozu.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> Mihawk's air slash.



Yes, you're also free to think that Mihawk used a relatively weak slash to test the power of the world's strongest man. Just don't expect agreement on that either (because it's completely illogical, but doesn't that bother you?).



> Keep in mind that I do believe marco can beat jozu. But I'm using your logic according to which marco shouldn't be able to beat jozu.



No, it's just you who apparently don't understand what you read.

The first mate can beat the third mate. This is a near universal truth. It's all we need to say Marco > Jozu and Marco can beat Jozu. His feats also support it, but they're really secondary. Fighting styles don't come into it here. Why? Because we know what both of their fighting styles are and they give us no reason to think it might affect Marco's ability to win over Jozu.

With Doflamingo and Jozu their fighting styles do exactly that. For a weaker character to beat Doffy the big issue is evading his strings. To beat Jozu the big issue is getting through his defense. Being able to do one does not equate to being able to do the other. Jozu/Dof being on roughly similar overall level of power doesn't automatically mean the M3 being able to beat one means they can the other if fighting styles differ in meaningful ways.

If you had read properly from the start this repetitive clarification would have been wholly unnecessary.


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## Shinthia (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Yes, you're also free to think that Mihawk used a relatively weak slash to test the power of the world's strongest man. Just don't expect agreement on that either (because it's completely illogical, but doesn't that bother you?).



So, what r Mihawk's other option besides using his strongest air slash ?

run thousand mile ,get close to WB and then unleash his strongest attack ?


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## U mad bro (Sep 12, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> No he wasn't. Fujitora was attacking alone at first. Now Doflamingo is attacking alone, and Law can't do a damn thing against it.



Yeah Law not being dead while both go at him tells you all you need to know about how strong he is. One is an admiral and the other is seen breaking and blocking admiral attacks. Yeah they seem stronger than him. But apparently not to the point they can stomp him. Otherwise like I said he would be dead.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> The first mate can beat the third mate. This is a near universal truth. It's all we need to say Marco > Jozu and Marco can beat Jozu



Say one thing or the other. Don't use double standards. You're the first person on this thread to say "we can't use ki levels here."

I agree that marco is stronger then jozu by virtue of being the right hand man of WB. But you need to take back your post about "ki levels" otherwise you are contradicting yourself and are in self denial.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> With Doflamingo and Jozu their fighting styles do exactly that. For a weaker character to beat Doffy the big issue is evading his strings



1. No we don't know yet how doflamingo can be dealt with. 
2. So what you're saying is that someone like chopper or bepo can beat doffy by simply evading his strings? :sanji



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> To beat Jozu the big issue is getting through his defense. Being able to do one does not equate to being able to do the other. Jozu/Dof being on roughly similar overall level of power doesn't automatically mean the M3 being able to beat one means they can the other if fighting styles differ in meaningful ways.



M3 are physical fighters. If jozu is same level as DD. and M3 can prove that they are same level as doffy. Then it's safe to believe that they can break their defences. Because then their physical prowess especially luffy's has to be on the same level as jozu.'


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> Say one thing or the other. Don't use double standards. You're the first person on this thread to say "we can't use ki levels here."



Are you seriously this dense? I'm not saying Marco beats Jozu cause he's overall stronger ("ki levels"). I'm saying he beats him because he's the 1st mate while Jozu isn't and that makes for a practically universal truth in the OP verse.



> 1. No we don't know yet how doflamingo can be dealt with.
> 2. So what you're saying is that someone like chopper or bepo can beat doffy by simply evading his strings?



So you don't think "don't get sliced or caught by his strings" is a good enough educated guess or what?



> If jozu is same level as DD. and M3 can prove that they are same level as doffy. Then it's safe to believe that they can break their defences.



Since when were we talking about Luffy/Zoro/Sanji being as strong as Joker individually? Of course that is an entirely different story. Them beating him _together_ by triple teaming thus making it that much harder to catch or attack them at once and hitting him with attacks that he doesn't have a special defense for unlike Jozu, is what does not automatically mean they could also beat Jozu.


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## RF (Sep 12, 2013)

This is fairly simple, people just always love to overcomplicate the matter...

Sanji's bone cracked when he exchanged blows with Vergo. Jozu's diamond body is not only much harder than Vergo's defense by itself, but it can also be assumed that when enhanced with haki, which should by powerscaling be significantly superior to Vergo's, Sanji has no actual shot at damaging him, bar perhaps DJ and Hell Memories.

Zoro can not cut diamond. His teacher couldn't do it with an air slash which was used to test the Worlds strongest man. It's an event foreshadowed to happen in the future, not over the timeskip. 

In Luffy's arsenal, nothing short of Red Hawk will do much here. G3 techs are way to slow for the man that kept up with Aokiji in combat, and when we take a look at what it takes for him to dispatch them, which is a couple of blows at best, there's no way they're winning.

And no, "they gun fight Yonko's" is not a legitimate argument here.


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## Etherborn (Sep 12, 2013)

sparklingwater said:


> I personally don't think DD is at Jozo level...
> 
> Jozo is a very bad match for Luffy and Sanji, though Zoro might be able to hurt him. I say M3 combine attack high diff.



Zoro is actually the worst matchup for Jozu out of the M3. Diamond is much more durable against cleavage than it is against impacts and flames, which Luffy and Sanji are both proficient at. Diamond can be shattered more easily than it can be cut, and if it gets hot enough, it burns and turns into carbon dioxide. 

There is also his haki barrier that they need to worry about, but three mid tiers should be able to take out a high tier.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> Are you seriously this dense? I'm not saying Marco beats Jozu cause he's overall stronger ("ki levels"). I'm saying he beats him because he's the 1st mate while Jozu isn't and that makes for a practically universal truth in the OP verse.



Maybe I'm dense or maybe I was dropped on my head. But you're making no sense at all to me. How can marco beat jozu without being overall stronger?



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> So you don't think "don't get sliced or caught by his strings" is a good enough educated guess or what?



No it's not as simple as that. We don't know how to he uses his powers specifically. We haven't seen anyone counter his powers. So this is only a vague assumption.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> Since when were we talking about Luffy/Zoro/Sanji being as strong as Joker individually? Of course that is an entirely different story. Them beating him together by triple teaming thus making it that much harder to catch or attack them at once and hitting him with attacks that he doesn't have a special defense for unlike Jozu, is what does not automatically mean they could also beat Jozu.



I don't know why you haven't realised this but most of the people posting in favor of M3 were basing their opinions off luffy beating doffy 1 on one. Luffy being a physical fighter on the level of doffy warrants him penetrating Jozu's defense.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> you're making no sense at all to me. How can marco beat jozu without being overall stronger?



Read more carefully then. Marco is overall stronger. Being overall stronger doesn't necessarily mean that he wins, although it is supportive of it. What means that he wins is the fact that he is Whitebeard's 1st mate and clearly best crewmember, because it is virtually universal that the 1st > the 2nd in a fight, and we have no reason to believe Oda deviates from this with Marco and Jozu, nor can we infer that there is such a deviation based on their fighting styles.



> No it's not as simple as that. We don't know how to he uses his powers specifically. We haven't seen anyone counter his powers. So this is only a vague assumption.



Why does any of that mean that "don't get your head sliced of" or "don't get controlled like a marionette" _isn't a part of dealing with him_? It doesn't matter HOW it's done. But obviously people that can beat DD has a way of doing the above or else they would not be able to beat him. 



> I don't know why you haven't realised this but most of the people posting in favor of M3 were basing their opinions off luffy beating doffy 1 on one.



You literally said "the whole M3" and I responded specifically to that. But I'm the one who have failed to understand what's going on? No.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> Read more carefully then. Marco is overall stronger. Being overall stronger doesn't necessarily mean that he wins, although it is supportive of it. What means that he wins is the fact that he is Whitebeard's 1st mate and clearly best crewmember, because it is virtually universal that the 1st > the 2nd in a fight, and we have no reason to believe Oda deviates from this with Marco and Jozu, nor can we infer that there is such a deviation based on their fighting styles.



So you're assuming that marco can "somehow" beat jozu just by the virtue of having a superior rank. Even though jozu was established as a better physical powerhouse.

But you can't bring yourself to believe that M3 can "somehow" beat jozu even though its very likely that during this arc it will be established that DD ~ Luffy ~ Zoro ~ Sanji.

That's why I was saying you are self contradicting.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> Why does any of that mean that "don't get your head sliced of" or "don't get controlled like a marionette" isn't a part of dealing with him? It doesn't matter HOW it's done. But obviously people that can beat DD has a way of doing the above or else they would not be able to beat him.



Ofcourse DD can be beaten. All I'm saying is that the way to beat him isn't necessarily jumping around or evading his strings. We don't know yet.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> You literally said "the whole M3" and I responded specifically to that. But I'm the one who have failed to understand what's going on? No.



Not only me but the op also states that we're using M3. But that doesn't change the fact that many people including me are assuming luffy to be individually equal to doffy.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> So you're assuming that marco can "somehow" beat jozu just by the virtue of having a superior rank. Even though jozu was established as a better physical powerhouse.
> 
> But you can't bring yourself to believe that M3 can "somehow" beat jozu even though its very likely that during this arc it will be established that DD ~ Luffy ~ Zoro ~ Sanji.
> 
> That's why I was saying you are self contradicting.



The thing is.

I don't agree that it's "likely" to be established Luffy~Doffy~Zoro~Sanji.

Disagreement and contradiction are two completely different things.



> But that doesn't change the fact that many people including me are assuming luffy to be individually equal to doffy.



I'm not addressing that. I'm addressing the argument "if they can beat Doffy 3v1, they must be able to beat Jozu as well".


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> I don't agree that it's "likely" to be established Luffy~Doffy~Zoro~Sanji.
> 
> Disagreement and contradiction are two completely different things.



Well we can agree to disagree then. 

You didn't make yourself clear enough especially when it was obvious most people were basing their opinions off DD~ Luffy ~ Zoro ~ Sanji. The difference increasing as we go lower. Originally your argument was based on difference in type of fighting style.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> I'm not addressing that. I'm addressing the argument "if they can beat Doffy 3v1, they must be able to beat Jozu as well".



I'm not asking you to adress it, neither is the op. But the 1v1 relation affects the 3v1 relation. You should be able to infer that much.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

The hell I didn't. There was nothing ambiguous about anything I said from the start. You just did a very bad job of reading as you apparently both misunderstood and somehow read more into it than was put there.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Oh For fuck's sake, it was obvious you were basing your argument in terms of difference in fighting style



> We're not comparing ki levels here. Jozu and Doflamingo are two different people. Where Jozu's power lies in his brutal strength and being nearly impossible to damage, Doflamingo's lies in being utterly lethal and having the ability to deal a decisive blow at the slightest opening or misstep



It's only now you've made clear that you believe DD > Luffy,sanji,Zoro


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## Quuon (Sep 12, 2013)

Jozu wins, unfortunately.

High-Diff.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> Oh For fuck's sake, it was obvious you were basing your argument in terms of difference in fighting style
> 
> It's only now you've made clear that you believe DD > Luffy,sanji,Zoro



Get your reading comprehension a major check-up. I haven't even said what I believe yet. All I've done from the start is present a specific argument and all you've done is completely fail to understand any of it and run off on pointless tangents. So that's enough bickering. I'm always open to a reasoned argument but this is not that.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 12, 2013)

Marco would probably just out last Jozu, as his attacks are doing shit all. 

Anyway on-topic Jozu wins.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Get your reading comprehension a major check-up. I haven't even said what I believe yet. All I've done from the start is present a specific argument and all you've done is completely fail to understand any of it and run off on pointless tangents. So that's enough bickering. I'm always open to a reasoned argument but this is not that.



Then what does "I don't agree that it's "likely" to be established Luffy~Doffy~Zoro~Sanji." Mean?


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Marco would probably just out last Jozu, as his attacks are doing shit all.
> 
> Anyway on-topic Jozu wins.



It was as simple as this. I completely understand what you're trying to say.

But "Mr logical argument" here believes that M3 can't penetrate his defences whereas Marco somehow magically can.


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## Lord Melkor (Sep 12, 2013)

I am not sure, I quess that it could go either way.


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## Rob (Sep 12, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Zoro + Luffy duo this



What about Sanji?! :amazed


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> Then what does "I don't agree that it's "likely" to be established Luffy~Doffy~Zoro~Sanji." Mean?



Exactly. what. it. says. Is that really a sentence whose deeper meaning needs to be further explored?


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## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation, I think you've missed his point.
The dialectic is as follows. You guys agree that Marco should beat Jozu. The indication of this is Marco's superior rank. (This isn't *why* Marco wins, but it's a reason to believe that he will win.)
You're also suggesting that the M3 would be unable to beat Jozu because they would be unable to damage him. However, the M3 combined should have more offensive power than Marco (you may disagree with this-I'm just presenting the argument). Therefore, if you're right that the M3 should lose because they can't inflict enough damage, then Marco should lose for the same reason.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> if you're right that the M3 should lose because they can't inflict enough damage, then Marco should lose for the same reason.



"Marco has more than proven that he has the physical power to beat Jozu."

This was my second post, in immediate response to the exact issue you just voiced. It is a crystal clear statement of what I believe on the issue.

No, I'm not missing any points. You guys are just deciding not to actually read and comprehend the words in the posts for some strange reason =/


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

barreltheif said:


> Coruscation, I think you've missed his point.
> The dialectic is as follows. You guys agree that Marco should beat Jozu. The indication of this is Marco's superior rank. (This isn't *why* Marco wins, but it's a reason to believe that he will win.)
> You're also suggesting that the M3 would be unable to beat Jozu because they would be unable to damage him. However, the M3 combined should have more offensive power than Marco (you may disagree with this-I'm just presenting the argument). Therefore, if you're right that the M3 should lose because they can't inflict enough damage, then Marco should lose for the same reason.



This.

And I don't think he missed the point. I think he was purposely trying to deny what I was saying and spouting things that weren't making sense at all.

And no. Marco hasn't proven that he has the physical power to beat jozu.


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## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> "Marco has more than proven that he has the physical power to beat Jozu."
> This was my second post, in immediate response to the exact issue you just voiced. It is a crystal clear statement of what I believe on the issue.
> No, I'm not missing any points. You guys are just deciding not to actually read and comprehend the words in the posts for some strange reason =/




I saw that you posted that. However, that's not the same as saying that Marco has greater offensive power than the M3 combined, which is the position you need to take to make your views consistent.

Furthermore, you devoted much more text to arguing that Marco>Jozu because he is the first mate etc.
For instance,


> The first mate can beat the third mate. This is a near universal truth. It's all we need to say Marco > Jozu and Marco can beat Jozu.



These comments made no sense in the dialectic, since everyone agrees that Marco>Jozu, and the argument was that your beliefs about Jozu's defense would conflict with the agreed position that Marco>Jozu. The fact that you bothered to continued to try to argue that Marco>Jozu made it quite natural to think that you were thoroughly confused about the structure of the dialectic.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Not only that but there were three people who used DD as a reference in this thread.



			
				Goomoonryong said:
			
		

> If Luffy does beat Dofla this arc he could give Jozu a hard fight by himself maybe even win





			
				Dawn said:
			
		

> If all of the M3 can't take on Jozu now, then I would be really disappointed.
> How the hell could Luffy beat DD then.





			
				Dunno said:
			
		

> I'm thinking M3 mid-diff, but we'll see when/if Luffy defeats Doflamingo.



When corus first posted on this thread, it was obvious he was trying to reply to these people. What he doesn't notice is how all three of them have put emphasis on "if luffy beats doffy 1 on 1".

Yet this is what corus asks me.


			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> Since when were we talking about Luffy/Zoro/Sanji being as strong as Joker individually



This shows either he was confused about what his original arguments were or wasn't reading carefully what people were posting on this thread.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> When corus first posted on this thread, it was obvious he was trying to reply to these people.



No you completely daft person. I was replying to you. The post right above me. If you had used your brain you would have been able to tell because the things I wrote about were directly addressing the things you said. 



> that's not the same as saying that Marco has greater offensive power than the M3 combined, which is the position you need to take to make your views consistent.



Well, that's a different issue and would require going into the mechanics of a single powerful attack vs. three less powerful attacks ("the M3 combined" is not a fusion) in terms of effectiveness in breaking an extremely solid defense. Also a slew of other issues such as actually landing hits, or what happens if the hits are countered, and perhaps more. I could have done that if my opponents in opinion cared to have a reasoned debate. But I don't need to out and out take that view. Saying that Marco has sufficient power to get the job done is all I need.



> These comments made no sense in the dialectic, since everyone agrees that Marco>Jozu, and the argument was that your beliefs about Jozu's defense would conflict with the agreed position that Marco>Jozu.



No, they make perfect sense. The not so smartass was trying to tell me that according to "my logic" Marco wouldn't be able to beat Jozu. That is completely wrong because Marco > Jozu is deduced according to a different logic. Which is what I stated and you quoted. The objection he raised made no sense because we already know Marco > Jozu. And what he originally brought up was my ki levels note in comparison with stating that Marco will beat Jozu due to 1st/2nd mate, which were completely irrelevant to each other. Obviously because he completely misinterpreted what I was saying. I don't see you calling him out on that, though. Perhaps you have an agenda?


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## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

Marco beats Jozu by mostly outlasting him in combat.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> No you completely daft person. I was replying to you. The post right above me. If you had used your brain you would have been able to tell because the things I wrote about were directly addressing the things you said.



If you haven't noticed I have no posts directly above your first post. Seems like you're still confused. You're first post was a reply to the group of people that I mentioned.

Maybe if you weren't constantly commenting on my reading comprehension and how dense I was, you would have realised that your posts were making no sense at all and were self contradictory.

And my replies were all based on your posts and continued on them.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> I could have done that if my opponents in opinion cared to have a reasoned debate. But I don't need to out and out take that view



You weren't trying to have a reasonable debate.

You had no  argument for how Marco was able penetrate Jozu's defences. You were just constantly rambling about how 1st mate > 2nd mate. Which I agree with but it contradicts your "different fighting style" and "Jozu's impenetrable defence" theories.

Instead you tried to cop out by telling me I can't read properly etc.. When you weren't making sense at all.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> That is completely wrong because Marco > Jozu is deduced according to a different logic



You can't use different logic and double standards. If marco can beat jozu, it can mean two things.

1. Marco is physically stronger. Which is not true based on feats and what their powers are.
Or
2. Jozu's defence isn't as impenetrable as you were making it out to be. Therefore M3 can penetrate his defence as well.


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## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

Marco doesn't really need to be physically stronger than Jozu. But he has shown than he can at least keep up with an Admiral @ a better rate than Jozu can.

Nothing the M3 has shown can really put them @ level which can penetrate Jaw's body. Jozu is among the toughest guy in the world. Remember in the war, he didn't take a pinch of damage until Aokiji freezes him. Aokiji's offensive power is vastly superior to M3.


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## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:


> Well, that's a different issue and would require going into the mechanics of a single powerful attack vs. three less powerful attacks ("the M3 combined" is not a fusion) in terms of effectiveness in breaking an extremely solid defense. Also a slew of other issues such as actually landing hits, or what happens if the hits are countered, and perhaps more. I could have done that if my opponents in opinion cared to have a reasoned debate. But I don't need to out and out take that view. Saying that Marco has sufficient power to get the job done is all I need.
> No, they make perfect sense. The not so smartass was trying to tell me that according to "my logic" Marco wouldn't be able to beat Jozu. That is completely wrong because Marco > Jozu is deduced according to a different logic. Which is what I stated and you quoted. The objection he raised made no sense because we already know Marco > Jozu. And what he originally brought up was my ki levels note in comparison with stating that Marco will beat Jozu due to 1st/2nd mate, which were completely irrelevant to each other. Obviously because he completely misinterpreted what I was saying. I don't see you calling him out on that, though. Perhaps you have an agenda?




I'm not trying to call you out, I'm trying to set you straight, since from what I've seen you're usually good at structuring a debate, but here I think you're still a bit confused. I have no interest at all in trying to make you look bad, or in trying to call out the other guy.

Now, let me quote this again:


> The not so smartass was trying to tell me that according to "my logic" Marco wouldn't be able to beat Jozu. That is completely wrong because Marco > Jozu is deduced according to a different logic. Which is what I stated and you quoted. The objection he raised made no sense because we already know Marco > Jozu.



This is where you are getting confused. Marco>Jozu is deduced using a different logic, that's right. This isn't something that you need to keep bringing up. If you continue to argue for Marco>Jozu, you're going to confuse yourself and other people.

Now, since you already believe that Marco>Jozu, you need to make sure that you don't have any beliefs that are inconsistent with Marco>Jozu. The worry is that you do. (1)-(3) are inconsistent.

(1) Marco has enough offensive power to put down Jozu. (You already believe this, and it's quite plausible.)
(2) The M3 together do not have enough offensive power to put down Jozu. (I take it that you already believe this.)
(3) The M3 together have more offensive power than Marco. (You haven't endorsed this, but it's extremely plausible.)

Now, since (1)-(3) are inconsistent, this serves as an argument against (2).


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> If you haven't noticed I have no posts directly above your first post. Seems like you're still confused. You're first post was a reply to the group of people that I mentioned.



That's true, sorry. I was replying to the person whose name also starts with an L, said similar things and kept responding to me after that so I got you confused. But are you with 100% sincerity sitting there and telling me who I wrote a post in reply to? I don't even have an insult for that.



> You had no argument for how Marco was able penetrate Jozu's defences. You were just constantly rambling about how 1st mate > 2nd mate. Which I agree with but it contradicts your "different fighting style" and "Jozu's impenetrable" theories.



No... no it DOESN'T. I said, immediately, that Marco has shown enough power. Which was to send Admirals flying. Now I don't give half a shit if you agree with that or not. But it's a completely legitimate argument. There are no contradictions. It doesn't have anything to DO with fighting styles and the precise details of the fight. That's all just one big delusion you got yourself lost in because you thought you had found something you could call me out on.



> You can't use different logic and double standards.



What the hell are you talking about? There are no double standards. But of course I can use different logics. The logic of 1st mate beats 2nd mate is one, it makes perfect sense and it's *all I need as far as that goes*. It's completely independent from a slightly more complex look at the ability to penetrate defense and what doing so would take. It goes completely without saying that I believe, for reasons made clear, that Marco can indeed damage Jozu through his defense. How that relates to the M. Trio? Well that's solely a matter of opinion. I don't think they're as strong/close to Marco as you think they are and that's why we don't share the same opinion on what it means. It doesn't have diddly-dick to do with any contradictions or double standards in my reasoning.



> This is where you are getting confused.



I'm not getting confused. He told me that according to "my logic" Marco would lose against Jozu. There is simply no truth in that because I don't need that logic to deduce Marco > Jozu. Even the inconsistency you think you've found is unrelated to it. If it were one, which it isn't, it wouldn't mean that Marco < Jozu, it would only mean that M. Trio > Jozu.



> (1) Marco has enough offensive power to put down Jozu. (You already believe this, and it's quite plausible.)
> (2) The M3 together do not have enough offensive power to put down Jozu. (I take it that you already believe this.)
> (3) The M3 together have more offensive power than Marco. (You haven't endorsed this, but it's extremely plausible.)



I already told you what this is about. It was in the big paragraph you quoted first? That you didn't address the actual substantive points in? I really don't see why I should have to repeat myself when it's right there and outlines nice and clear how there are no contradictions.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Battousai said:
			
		

> Marco doesn't really need to be physically stronger than Jozu. But he has shown than he can at least keep up with an Admiral @ a better rate than Jozu can.



I completely agree with this. I never said otherwise. It was corus who said that the only way of beating jozu is being able to output attacks higher then mihawk's strongest slashes.



> Beating Jozu factually requires outputting sheer power/defense breaking attacks well above Mihawk testing Whitebeard



I don't think marco's fighting style which is based on regeneration puts his hitting ability above mihawk's slashes.



			
				battousai said:
			
		

> Nothing the M3 has shown can really put them @ level which can penetrate Jaw's body. Jozu is among the toughest guy in the world. Remember in the war, he didn't take a pinch of damage until Aokiji freezes him. Aokiji's offensive power is vastly superior to M3.



I don't agree with you here but I think your opinion is valid. Because I'm assuming M3 have enough firepower but you don't. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.


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## Slenderman (Sep 12, 2013)

Luffee If you agree with Marco is stronger then Jozu what is your point? Edit: I belive that Marco is stronger then Jozu because Marco is first mate and Jozu is not. I don't know what's so hard to belive about this.


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## Coruscation (Sep 12, 2013)

> It was corus who said that the only way of beating jozu is being able to output attacks higher then mihawk's strongest slashes.



So you missed the "defense breaking" part? It didn't occur to you that I put that there for a reason? I can tell you the reason although of course there is no actual need as there was no contradiction to begin with. Slashing attacks are typically bad at piercing defenses of extreme hardness. Of course Mihawk's slash also had a great deal of physical force behind but not enough to blunt force trauma Jozu. Marco's kicks are not more damaging than a giant Mihawk slash but they have extreme power behind them and effectively inflict blunt force trauma. This would be able to break Jozu's defense and thus damage him.

You also seemed to have... er... missed something else because you're talking about Mihawk's "strongest" slashes. I'm confident I never said that so the question becomes why you are claiming that I said something I didn't? Are you out of legitimate arguments?


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> That's true, sorry. I was replying to the person whose name also starts with an L, said similar things and kept responding to me after that so I got you confused. But are you with 100% sincerity sitting there and telling me who I wrote a post in reply to? I don't even have an insult for that.



Ok, I take back what I said about you replying to those three people. You were infact replying to the person above you. 

But I'll admit I messed this one up. But the rest of my argument stands



			
				Slenderman said:
			
		

> Luffee If you agree with Marco is stronger then Jozu what is your point? Edit: I belive that Marco is stronger then Jozu because Marco is first mate and Jozu is not. I don't know what's so hard to belive about this.



Bro, It's obvious you haven't read my posts.


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## Slenderman (Sep 12, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Ok, I take back what I said about you replying to those three people. You were infact replying to the person above you.
> 
> But I'll admit I messed this one up. But the rest of my argument stands
> 
> ...



I've been at this thread for hours I would be blind to not see the shitsstorm between you and Corus.


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## barreltheif (Sep 12, 2013)

> I'm not getting confused. He told me that according to "my logic" Marco would lose against Jozu. There is simply no truth in that because I don't need that logic to deduce Marco > Jozu. Even the inconsistency you think you've found is unrelated to it. If it were one, which it isn't, it wouldn't mean that Marco < Jozu, it would only mean that M. Trio > Jozu.




Ugh you're really being dense. He was saying that your reasoning leads to Jozu>Marco. You aren't vindicated by having a completely unrelated reason for thinking that Marco>Jozu. The fact that you have a separate reason for thinking that Marco>Jozu would only make things *worse* for you since that would mean that you are committed to the inconsistent position that Jozu>Marco and Marco>Jozu, rather than the merely implausible position that Jozu>Marco.

If someone says that you're committed to an implausible position, you can't respond that you're in the clear because you're *also* committed to the opposite positions. Things are even worse for you if you're committed to both. Instead, you need to explain why you're not committed to the implausible position in the first place.
You follow me?

What you need to do is explain why Marco would have enough firepower to put down Jozu even though the M3 do not. That is the corner that you've backed yourself into. You touched on this issue in your previous post, but you need to actually give some sort of argument, not merely entertain giving an argument.


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Coruscation said:
			
		

> Slashing attacks are typically bad at piercing defenses of extreme hardness



True. But then why were you expecting mihawk's slashes to be compared to M3's punches and kicks(especially luffy's)? It's as if you were expecting luffy to have the same impact as mihawk which as you yourself said right now is not required. Again this is an example of double standards.



			
				Coruscation said:
			
		

> You also seemed to have... er... missed something else because you're talking about Mihawk's "strongest" slashes. I'm confident I never said that so the question becomes why you are claiming that I said something I didn't? Are you out of legitimate arguments?



Ok. Not strongest. Slashes meant for WB. I don't see any difference. Unless mihawk was trolling WB.



			
				Slenderman said:
			
		

> I've been at this thread for hours I would be blind to not see the shitsstorm between you and Coros.



I'll explain it to you in a bit.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 12, 2013)

Luffee said:


> It was as simple as this. I completely understand what you're trying to say.
> 
> But "Mr logical argument" here believes that M3 can't penetrate his defences whereas Marco somehow magically can.



Marco>>Any M3 Member. So just cause someones of the opnion that Marco can break Jozu defense does not translate to the M3.

Unless you think the M3 are on the same level as Marco, or that the M3 attacks will stack together and make some super attack that is strong enough to hurt Jozu. 

My position is simple. The M3 can't hurt Jozu enough to take him out before his attacks take them out, the only chance they have would be to work together and knock him into the water, and well good luck with that.


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## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

Luffee, stop starting shitstorms in my threads. 

I want a nice quiet evening of simple debating for once.


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## jNdee~ (Sep 12, 2013)

Lewl, Jozu would choke-slam them one by one


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## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:
			
		

> Luffee, stop starting shitstorms in my threads.
> 
> I want a nice quiet evening of simple debating for once.



I don't see how I'm causing shitstorms compared to corus or anyone else. 

But if you don't want me to post simply for "not posting on your thread" then I won't post.


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## trance (Sep 12, 2013)

Luffee said:


> But if you don't want me to post simply for "not posting on your thread" then I won't.



Glad you get the idea.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Sep 13, 2013)

M3 probably cant beat Vista, how are they defeating Jozu?


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## Roronoa-zoro (Sep 13, 2013)

Zoro is practically useless against Jozu's diamond and near top-tier level COA defence. Sanji is not as useless as Zoro here, especially with HM and SKW which if he keeps his distance could work well in distracting Jozu giving Luffy a chance to get a few hits in. but eventually I see Sanji going down as well.

Which leaves us with Luffy and Jozu. Now I rate Luffy as an near low top-tier, but I still don't see him giving any real trouble to one of the toughest physical fighters (this will pretty much be Lucci 2.0 for Luffy, but much, much harder) in the manga.

So, I'm giving this to Jozu mid diff. at worst.


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## 2Broken (Sep 13, 2013)

Man I must be going crazy, because I don't see how the M3 could possibly lose this if they are fighting together with full knowledge on Jozu. It just doesn't make sense, based on feats and/or portrayal.



Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> M3 probably cant beat Vista, how are they defeating Jozu?



^


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## Coruscation (Sep 13, 2013)

> He was saying that your reasoning leads to Jozu>Marco.



And he is wrong, like you are. It *doesn't do that*. His whole idea is that I reasoned the M. Trio might/would have trouble due to lacking the power output, and that, according to him, also Marco doesn't have enough physical power to do the job and therefore he couldn't according to "my logic". But my reasoning doesn't lead to that. Certainly not because he makes the claim that it does, which he barely did anyway because most of it was an incoherent mess. The only argument claiming that that has been presented with any sort of clarity is what you said a post or two ago, although that's still wrong.



> You aren't vindicated by having a completely unrelated reason for thinking that Marco>Jozu.



They're not "completely" unrelated. Every reason to think something is relevant, it all needs to be taken into account. My reasoning for Jozu/M. Trio may not be what is used to infer Marco > Jozu but it doesn't need to be. They just need to be consistent, as in, if a certain set of conditions need to be fulfilled for M3 to win then they also have to be fulfilled for Marco, which they are. Of course you tried to simplify this into "offensive power" but it is more complex. Offensive power is a highly important but not the sole part, and when gauging offensive power it is not as simple as "the M. Trio combined" as if they were some kind of fusion. But again I've already addressed this.



> What you need to do is explain why Marco would have enough firepower to put down Jozu even though the M3 do not. That is the corner that you've backed yourself into.



I've "backed myself" into absolutely nothing. I simply believe that Marco has enough firepower _to win_ and the M. Trio don't. It has been elaborated somewhat in previous posts as well although lacking elaboration is not the same thing as being contradictory. Keep in mind this is NOT the same thing as saying that if Jozu stood still and let them wail on him endlessly he would last forever which is kind of the perspective your objection seemed to come from. We're talking about a fight with moving, living entities.


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## Vengeance (Sep 13, 2013)

I still believe the M3 could take out Jozu:

Jozu is/can not stay in diamond form the whole time.
Diamond can be shattered with blunt force.
CoA: We don't know if Jozu is actually that superior in Coa to Luffy, he made an admiral bleed with a free shot and almost took out Croc, that's it.
Where is it confirmed that Zoro can't cut diamond? Dude was cutting through steel like it was butter already pre ts. Mihawk's slash doesn't confirm anything, as it was just a slash and not meant for Jozu. Not saying that he can cut him, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Also, believing that Marco (the guy whose main power is his defense) could take down Jozu but not the M3 is a bit contradicting here imo.


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## Teach (Sep 13, 2013)

M3 beat him. Jozu is upper high-tier. M3 are all high-tiers. Jozu lacks offense to get rid off them quickly enough, he's also fighting 3 guys pretty close to his overall power at the same time, which is a huge advantage to M3.


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## tanman (Sep 14, 2013)

To be honest: I don't know.
What we're talking about here is how the Strawhats would fare against people considered "top tiers."

That's kind of what the current arc is about. Law and Smoker have both been unable to hurt the likes of Doflamingo despite ample motivation to do so. However, many anticipate a victory for Luffy at the end of this arc. Reconciling these two ideas is difficult, but we do have previous cases where Luffy was able to overcome someone traditionally considered a "tier" above him. Crocodile was a particularly similar situation, in which Crocodile demonstrated flawless victories against Luffy and people in Luffy's league. Yet Luffy was able to overcome him. If this were a situation like that, we can expect Luffy's gradual entrance to that level well after the fight actually occurs. The alternative is that Luffy was strong enough to take him down all along. That really does a number on Smoker and Law's roles in the story, though. The alternative alternative is that Luffy doesn't actually beat Dofla that soon or possibly even at all.

I mean this is what we're really talking about, right? Jozu is just a scapegoat.


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## Freechoice (Sep 15, 2013)

*Diamond is not the toughest material.*

It's such a ridiculously common misconception. Diamonds have the highest scratch hardness. Meaning it has the highest resistance to scratching. 

That's it. 

A Diamond's toughness is fair at best. The toughness of a material is the maximum amount of energy it can absorb before fracturing. 

A diamond can easily be shattered with a hammer. 

All in all, diamonds are hard, not tough. Big difference.

Mihawk slash [cutting], diamonds are nigh immune to.

Blunt force, not so much. They shatter.



> "Hardness" of a substance means its resistance to scratching. So, when we say that diamond is the hardest substance, then it means that it can?t be scratched by any material except another diamond.
> 
> On the other hand, "Toughness" of a substance means its ability to resist fracture or breakage when it is stressed or impacted.
> 
> ...



Not saying Jozu would lose to the M3, just clearing some shit up.

Of course, all of this is assuming that Oda himself knows the difference between toughness and hardness.


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## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 15, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> M3 probably cant beat Vista, how are they defeating Jozu?



Vista > Jozu, because Vista can give Mihawk who is stronger than admirals difficulty, but Jozu gets trolled by Doflamingo and one shotted by Aokiji.


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## RF (Sep 15, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Vista > Jozu, because Vista can give Mihawk who is stronger than admirals difficulty, but Jozu gets trolled by Doflamingo and one shotted by Aokiji.



I completely agree man. I mean, we know for a fact that Vista and Mihawk are equal (canon), and we also know that Mihawk is stronger than Shanks, a Yonko. (WSS). That makes me believe that Vista might be the only exception to the rule and was a Yonko level subordinate under a Yonko himself, whereas Jozu is nothing but a measly third seat.


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