# Jiraiya vs Kisame.



## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Set:Forest.
Distance:50m.
Mindset:IC+KI.
Restrictions:None.
Round 1. Jiraiya starts in base.
Round 2. Kisame can't transform and Jiraiya can't use SM.
Round 3. Kisame starts in shark form and Jiraiya starts in SM.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 31, 2018)

Jiraiya wins all rounds. 
Kisame himself thought he was of no use in battle between Itachi and jiraiya.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 4 | Winner 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 31, 2018)

jiraiya wins all three

#3 would be the easiest for jiraiya, using sm powered  swamps/walls, rasengans, enchanted stone swords & hair stuffs against an empowered but unarmed kisame


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## Troyse22 (Mar 31, 2018)

Normally I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, but seeing as how garbage like this 


The_Conqueror said:


> Kisame himself thought he was of no use in battle between Itachi and jiraiya.



Is still being spewed, I think I gotta educate NBD'ers yet again.



Polandfan said:


> Set:Forest.
> Distance:50m.
> Mindset:IC+KI.
> Restrictions:None.
> Round 1. Jiraiya starts in base.



Well.

Kisame already destroyed base Gai
Gai negged base Jiraiya with a single kick



Polandfan said:


> Round 2. Kisame can't transform and Jiraiya can't use SM.



Kisame still wins. 

Suiton to dillute Yomi Numa, or he just absorbs it.
Incaps boss summons in a single hit, as he did to Ponta.
Jiraiya will attempt CQC if his Ninjutsu doesn't work
Kisame>>>>>Jiraiya in CQC by a vast margin, one hit and Jiraiya dies, he was incapped by Oro who wasn't even paying any real attention to him lmao



Polandfan said:


> Round 3. Kisame starts in shark form and Jiraiya starts in SM.



So I assume if he starts in the merge, they start underwater right?

Again he absorbs everything Jiraiya throws at him
Can't use frog song underwater.
Boss summons get destroyed underwater
Jiraiya isn't V2 Killer Bee, if Kisame hits into Jiraiya once or twice, Jiraiya is not just KO'd, he's straight up dead.

Come P2 the gap between Jiraiya and Kisame not only closed, Kisame pulled tiers ahead.

Deidara dies to the man who killed the strongest of the Sannin, Kisame sarcastically notes "Huh, and I thought he was one of the stronger ones..."

Kisame then not only straight up challenges the man who killed said Sannin, but said man has an entire team as backup. His part 1 statement is dragged through the mud, and was retconned from this moment on. (was retconned when Kisame negged base Gai, whom Jiraiya lost to but w/e) (Kisame was also only at 30% of his original power)

Kisame dumpster diffs any canon version of Jiraiya, the gap is too large.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Normally I wouldn't touch this thread with a 10 foot pole, but seeing as how garbage like this
> 
> 
> What are you trying to imply?


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## Serene Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

Ah my favourite match up

Jiraiya boy wins every time

*Spoiler*: __ 




Jiraiya can block Kisames Suikodan projectiles with Hari jizo.

Waterdome gets busted by Gamabunta, or at the least Gamabunta restricts Kisame's manoeuvrability in the dome ultimately forcing him to bust it.

Gamayudan gives Jiraiya openings to attack Kisame as it was stated in the databook, and outright shown to have a paralytic effect(I know I didn't know at first but I does), once Kisame is paralyzed or stuck together by oil this allows Jiraiya to either plow him with a rasengan, or use Lions mane that was , to either choke him out, or simply dispatch Samehada away from ultimately taking away his absorption.


1000 sharks can get avoided completely via hiding in a toad underwater thanks to Gamagakure no Jutsu allowing him to avoid it completely, then emerge behind Kisame or stalemate with his bjuii dwarfing katon, in similar fashion that guy did with the flames from asajaku

Getting into SM wouldn't be a problem when Jiraiya has summonings that can jump extremely high heights, water bullets that were able to stalemate bjuii powered air bullets, Toad Oil to restrain or slow down Kisame to an extent and a sword that was able to cut off Shukaku's arm. Thanks to that Gamabunta should be able to avoid or counteract most if not all of Kisame's techs, thus allowing Jiraiya to go to SM...of which.Kisame...gets..destroyed.

In CQC I give the edge to Jiraiya more times than not. In a direct confrontation, Jiraiya would likely break a few of his teeth if he hits him as he's shown ridiculous strength in SM()() .The sheer ,  pressure kisame or even sqewer him as well. He should be faster than kisame in SM, by a good deal. In SM, He was blitzing shared vision, creating a crater from his jump alone, hitting animal path before it could make hand seals to summon - (mind you that same animal path was able to react and make handseals for summoning before Jiraiya's _fastest wide range _jutsu could reach him)and touching Preta path with rasengan before he was able to manifest his spiritual barrier(mind you he was able to erect said barrier before FRS was able to reach him).

His ability to set up distractions via s, or a dust cloud()() lets him set up a dangerous techniques like  that would stab him in mutliple places(likely vital spots), Zessenzan()(), and a  which ends Kisame's life or the likely game ender Kekkai:  which can be utilized perfectly if Kisame decides to spit a lake up

Jiraiya wins mid diff




unless we give kisame fanfic bjuii strength, and top tier reactions of course 

Kisame, canon feats and potrayal agree with this


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## Maverick04 (Mar 31, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> Set:Forest


Well atleast he wouldnt be trapped inside the toad's belly.



Polandfan said:


> Round 1. Jiraiya starts in base.


This round could either way..Depend on Kisame really if he goes OOC and starts with a Daikodan or dai bakusui shoha from the get go then he can pull off a win here..But if Jiraiya gets into sage mode then he gets shit on



Polandfan said:


> Round 2. Kisame can't transform and Jiraiya can't use SM.


Jiraiya has the advantage with summons and bigass jutsus like Yomi Numa and Gamayu endan..Kisame is pretty limited here..Thousand feeding sharks is featless..Daikodan seems like the only viable option for Kisame in this scenario..But I don't think Kisame can beat base Jiraiya without merging with Samehada



Polandfan said:


> Round 3. Kisame starts in shark form and Jiraiya starts in SM.


Inside the waterdome?? If so then Jiraiya can use his summon to get out of the water..Kawazu Naki + Tongue blade jutsu can be used to behead Kisame..But it won't be easy..I'm gonna say a mid to high diff win for Jiraiya here


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## Troyse22 (Mar 31, 2018)

That statements like those are garbage.

Wasn't an implication, I outright quoted and stated what I thought was garbage.


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> That statements like those are garbage.
> 
> Wasn't an implication, I outright quoted and stated what I thought was garbage.


Do you mean part 1 statement(Jiraiya>Itachi+Kisame)?


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## Maverick04 (Mar 31, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Ah my favourite match up
> 
> Jiraiya boy wins every time
> 
> ...


Do you copy paste these tldr comments or did you just write it now?


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 31, 2018)

According to part 1 Itachi; Jiraiya >= Itachi

But in Orochimaru's eyes, it's; 3T Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya

Who's word holds more weight? The guy who was an undercover agent & had likely never seen Jiraiya fight in person? Or the person who knew Jiraiya's level of strength better than anyone bar the sage toads?

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Do you copy paste these tldr comments or did you just write it now?


sometimes I copy and paste, or other times I just make it on the spot with a few edits


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2018)

Jman destroys him. low to mid difficulty at worst.


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## Azula (Mar 31, 2018)

Well if Jiraiya is in a particularly vindictive mood, he could have Gamabunta summoned and crush/bisect Kisame+Samehada with his sword.



 A midget frog stopped Kisame and Samehada in the hallway because he had metal armor. 

Gambunta's sword cut off Shukaku's arm, pinned Manda, killed Animal path summons. That would work pretty nicely against Kisame whose bread and butter is absorbing chakra. Can't absorb metal. Even in the ultimate Kisamehada form he dies. 

Actually any other Boss summon would also do, probably overkill.


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## Mithos (Mar 31, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> Jiraiya starts in SM



Why would you do to this to Kisame lol. The battle would end so quickly it wouldn't be funny.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 31, 2018)

Mithos said:


> Why would you do to this to Kisame lol. The battle would end so quickly it wouldn't be funny.



Yeah it's kind of unfair, Jiraiya dies in a single hit.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2018)

Jiraiya should win eventually. Kisame can't absorb his toad based abilities and if Jiraiya summons Bunta then Jiraiya can match if not overpower Kisame's range jutsu with his combos with Bunta and Jiraiya has Dotons to help him counter Kisame's Suitons as well. Be it CQC or the range game Jiraiya has the upperhand and it's just a matter of time before he overwhelms Kisame. Sage Mode would be the final nail in the coffin but I doubt Jiraiya would need it more times then not

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Mar 31, 2018)

Absorbing sage Chakra will result in  toad petrification for Kisame. Jiraiya has the necessary jutsus and abilities. He can use frog call in water dome to get Kisame. Sound travels better in water or something like that in Naruto verse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 31, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Absorbing sage Chakra will result in toad petrification for Kisame



For that to work, 33% of Jiraiya's reserves would have to be nearly 2x as large as Kisame's.

Wouldn't be crazy to see a Sannin wanker make that claim though.



PradyumnaR said:


> Jiraiya has the necessary jutsus and abilities



No he doesn't.



PradyumnaR said:


> He can use frog call in water dome to get Kisame



Try singing under water

But we make an exception because Jiraiya is Jiraiya right?



PradyumnaR said:


> Sound travels better in water or something like that in Naruto verse



Doesn't matter if it travels better, the pitch would be off, and it would be garbled as fuck.

But again, we'll ignore that because Jiraiya is a Sannin.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 31, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> But in Orochimaru's eyes, it's; 3T Itachi > Orochimaru > Jiraiya



Orochimaru never at any point said that 3T Itachi is stronger than he is.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Mithos said:


> Why would you do to this to Kisame lol. The battle would end so quickly it wouldn't be funny.


I only wanted justice. It wouldn't be fair if ones starts transformed and other not.


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah it's kind of unfair, Jiraiya dies in a single hit.


You've killed me

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> .....
> 
> Fukasaku outright explains this.
> 
> ...


Why did you dislike. I didn't mean anything bad


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## Troyse22 (Mar 31, 2018)

Polandfan said:


> Nice to see that you are still fighting Troy. Come on, show him what costs underestimating Shark Sage



Nah, done with the shitposting Sannin wankers, citing goddamn non-canon sources as the backbone of their argument, it's disgusting.

The DB often times *DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS WHAT'S STATED OR SHOWN IN THE MANGA.
*
I've now concluded Serene is a Turrin level poster, nothing but shitposting Sannin wanking BS.

Manga "Jiraiya doesn't have ghost punches, sensing and inferior physical strength"

Non canon sources- "HE DOES HE DOES"

Sannin wankers- "LETS FOLLOW THE NON CANON SOURCES, FUCK THE MANGA IF IT CONTRADICTS MY POINT OF VIEW"
*


*


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Nah, done with the shitposting Sannin wankers, citing goddamn non-canon sources as the backbone of their argument, it's disgusting.
> 
> The DB often times *DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS WHAT'S STATED OR SHOWN IN THE MANGA.
> *
> ...


If you think that he/she is wanker, give this person dislike/disagree, but don't punish loyal Kisame's fan.


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## narut0ninjafan (Mar 31, 2018)

Kisame challenging Sasuke supposedly being an indication of his strength 

He's canonically known overrate his own power (as demonstrated when he tried to step to Gai and got immediately cucked), yet he was *still* shitting himself at the thought of having to face Jiraiya

Jman wins every scenario


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## Serene Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> And Jiraiya describes that toad summon as "everything he had"


No, he didn't. He was referring to Gama Shirabchi, it would be stupid to say that was all he had when has superior summonings to that one exist



Troyse22 said:


> ust to get the 2 to back off.
> 
> Even then, when toad stomach came up, Kisame didn't care


 It didn't seem that way when his ass was sweating until Itachi came to his rescue 



Troyse22 said:


> Itachi put Kisame in a bad position, and this was pre-retcon Kisame.


>Blaming Itachi

You mean the same dude who saved his ass with amaterasu



Troyse22 said:


> Don't bother responding, you're done.


For some strange reason, you think I give a darn

I don't 

stay salty because yah boy got shutdown by a midget toad in cqc, and was getting pressured by Gama shirbachi



Troyse22 said:


> The graph shows what happens *WHEN YOU TAKE IN SO MUCH NE THAT IT EXCEEDS YOUR NORMAL RESERVES*


I have the scan right here


*Spoiler*: __ 








> Pa says all energies have to be balanced perfectly.
> He then says that if you take too much NE you'll turn into a frog and if you take too little you won't be able to make Sage chakra, thats all.




Troyse22 said:


> Not doing the boss summon argument.
> 
> Already explained why Bunta is only MAYBE 2-3x the size of Ponta.
> 
> ...


concession accepted

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 31, 2018)

This guy negged me 

like the 8th time



Troyse22 said:


> Sannin wankers- "LETS FOLLOW THE NON CANON SOURCES, FUCK THE MANGA IF IT CONTRADICTS MY POINT OF VIEW"


calls me the wanker when this guy thinks Kisame can beat fucking Hashirama, EMS Madara and BSM Naruto and also believes Kisame has superior reactions to Juudara

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Orochimaru never at any point said that 3T Itachi is stronger than he is.


He got bitchslapped by 3T Itachi. With how hard he got trolled by basic Sharingan Genjutsu, he probably thought it was Tsukuyomi. And he obviously had no clue about Susano'o


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 31, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He got bitchslapped by 3T Itachi. With how hard he got trolled by basic Sharingan Genjutsu, he probably thought it was Tsukuyomi. And he obviously had no clue about Susano'o


Itachi has absolutely nothing in his base arsenal that can threaten Orochimaru. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that Orochimaru has no knowledge of Itachi’s MS.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Itachi has absolutely nothing in his base arsenal that can threaten Orochimaru. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that Orochimaru has no knowledge of Itachi’s MS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zero890 (Mar 31, 2018)

It makes sense what  @Orochimaruwantsyourbody  says ... The guy lost the whole arm and just laughed ... hand cut off> arm cut off?


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Itachi has absolutely nothing in his base arsenal that can threaten Orochimaru. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that Orochimaru has no knowledge of Itachi’s MS.


Except for Sharingan Genjutsu which Orochimaru canonically has no answer for 

Did forget that Sasuke knew about Amaterasu, though, so Orochimaru had to of known about it too. But he still didn't know about Susano'o, while Orochi already had his 8 Branches tech at the time of their first fight


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## Marvel (Mar 31, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> This guy negged me
> 
> like the 8th time
> 
> ...



Yeah he has a tendency to do that.

Just compliment Avalon and get a 14k rep from him.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Hi no Ishi (Mar 31, 2018)

Jiraiya every time.

In base he wrecks because water does not really put out oil fires well, 
Boss Summon shredding hair, dimension hopping and frog transformation makes CQC untenable, and the sharks have already lost to fire already, a thing Jiraiya excells at.
Daikodan is his only resort, and that can be FCD'd or walled with a toad.
Adding water to a swamp makes a bigger swamp so Yomi Numa is an issue as well, but I don't think that's enough to kill Kisame 

Great water colliding wave has Jiraiya jump away on a frog and fill the thing with oil. If for some reason he just stands there and lets himsrlf gey trapprd in the dome he just hides inside a frog or leaves, if he doesn't want to fight or he drags Kisame into the stomach acid realm, or turns him into a frog with a touch.

SM makes is way worse.
Sound travels better underwater, meaning frog call makes openings whenever, and frog song ends it.
Needles perforate Kisame and Samehada from range, and if Kisame does finally catch him Jiraiya and Co.  can just fill the guy with senjutsu and turn him to stone.

Jiraiya has to work for it though, and isn't low diffing shit.


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## Marvel (Mar 31, 2018)

Jirayia wins this...Kisame’s large scale Suigins like Waterdome or the one his clone used against Team Gai can be easily by The Boss Toads who could simply float on top of the water or swim while underwater and have Jirayia in their mouth stopping him from getting his chakra absorbed or drowning.

To get out of these Large Suitons the Toads can Jump high enough to be hundreds of feet in the air and land outside of the dome.
On top of that Kisame’s offensive Suitins can be countered with Toad Oil Enhanced Katon which are very large.

It’s aslo unlike Jirayia too engage in CQC right off the bat like Kisame does so he most likely wouldnt engage and stay on the defensive.

And if worst comes to worse he’ll have a rasengan ready for Kisame which would act like a LoS blocker for him to back out.

Eventually he’ll enter SM and dominate Kisame with a Chou Odama Rasengan or just make it easy and end it with Frog Song.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 31, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Except for Sharingan Genjutsu which Orochimaru canonically has no answer for


This isn’t true for starters, as Orochimaru has clones, summoning partners, LoS breakers, can try to avoid eye contact, and can try to make a Kai to escape.

Even if it was true so what? Base Itachi still can’t kill Orochimaru even if he catches him in Genjutsu. 

Meanwhile, even excluding ET, Base Itachi has no method of dealing with Yamata, White Snake, or Manda/Orochimaru working together. Itachi needs Totsuka or Tsukuyomi to put Orochimaru down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> This isn’t true for starters, as Orochimaru has clones, summoning partners, LoS breakers, can try to avoid eye contact, and can try to make a Kai to escape.
> 
> Even if it was true so what? Base Itachi still can’t kill Orochimaru even if he catches him in Genjutsu.
> 
> Meanwhile, even excluding ET, Base Itachi has no method of dealing with Yamata, White Snake, or Manda/Orochimaru working together. Itachi needs Totsuka or Tsukuyomi to put Orochimaru down.


If all that were the case, why would Orochimaru have admitted complete inferiority to a midteen Itachi without even taking Susano'o into account? And you don't have to kill someone to defeat them 

Seems like you have far more confidence in his ability to avoid Genjutsu than Orochimaru himself does


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 31, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> If all that were the case, why would Orochimaru have admitted complete inferiority to a midteen Itachi without even taking Susano'o into account?



We don’t know if Orochimaru knew about Susano or not. We don’t know how far developed Itachi’s abilities were at that point or how long Orochimaru worked with him. 

All we know is that Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Itachi as a whole and never stated the extent of his inferiority, or if the lose of his arms contributed to Orochimaru admitting inferiority. He never said that if he is healthy that he couldn’t defeat base Itachi. We don’t even know how their original fight went beyond the Genjutsu.



> And you don't have to kill someone to defeat them



I agree, but if you can’t kill them, can’t seal them, and can’t outlast them, you can’t win a head to head fight. We don’t know how long the original fight lasted or when Orochimaru decided to retreat.



> Seems like you have far more confidence in his ability to avoid Genjutsu than Orochimaru himself does



Orochimaru never said he could not defeat Itachi because of base Genjutsu. In their final fight Orochimaru seemed confident he could finish Itachi even knowing about all of Itachi’s abilities outside of Totsuka and Izanami.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Mar 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> We don’t know if Orochimaru knew about Susano or not. We don’t know how far developed Itachi’s abilities were at that point or how long Orochimaru worked with him.
> 
> All we know is that Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Itachi as a whole and never stated the extent of his inferiority, or if the lose of his arms contributed to Orochimaru admitting inferiority. He never said that if he is healthy that he couldn’t defeat base Itachi. We don’t even know how their original fight went beyond the Genjutsu.
> 
> ...


Not even the Zetsu duo knew about Itachi's Susano'o. If they didn't know, Orochi sure as hell didn't. Not to mention, If he knew about Susano'o, he would've told Sasuke about it 

Orochimaru said Itachi being stronger than him is why he left the Akatsuki. So he was weaker even when he still had his arms 

He was confident because Itachi was literally at death's door & 100% blind. Funnily enough, even a blind, exhausted & injured Itachi was a tier above Orochimaru none the less


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## Gohara (Mar 31, 2018)

Jiraiya wins with around high difficulty in my opinion, his portrayal is on par with the Paths version of Nagato who is superior to Kisame.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 31, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> We don’t know if Orochimaru knew about Susano or not. We don’t know how far developed Itachi’s abilities were at that point or how long Orochimaru worked with him.
> 
> All we know is that Orochimaru admitted inferiority to Itachi as a whole and never stated the extent of his inferiority, or if the lose of his arms contributed to Orochimaru admitting inferiority. He never said that if he is healthy that he couldn’t defeat base Itachi. We don’t even know how their original fight went beyond the Genjutsu.
> 
> ...



Say it with me

1
2
3
hypocrisy


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 31, 2018)

1
2
3
hypocrisy

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 6


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## A Optimistic (Mar 31, 2018)

Kisame outright told Itachi that he is no match for Jiraya.

Then when confronted by Jiraya, he immediately ran away, and was shown to be unable to deal with a simple jutsu from base Jiraya. If Itachi wasn't there, then Kisame would have died.

Base Jiraya is in a completely different league than Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Kisame outright told Itachi that he is no match for Jiraya.
> 
> Then when confronted by Jiraya, he immediately ran away, and was shown to be unable to deal with a simple jutsu from base Jiraya. If Itachi wasn't there, then Kisame would have died.
> 
> Base Jiraya is in a completely different league than Kisame.



Yet later (Shippuden) we see Kisame challenge the man who killed the strongest of the Sannin. Would he do this if he felt himself inferior to the Sannin?

In P1 Kisame was merely a side character with little backstory and nothing impressive to show. When Kishi decided the Akatsuki ought to be more relevant and have them actually the main villains in the story for most of Shippuden, we saw him gain more power, with better portrayal, hype and feats.

If you think his P1 statement transfers over to P2 even when he directly shits all over his P1 statement, idk what to say besides you're being willfully ignorant and stupid because you're in denial.

Honestly, i'm growing to detest these forums and the people participating in them. It's far too much bias and not only ignorance, but blatant stupidity on the part of a lot of posters here as they ignore manga facts if they don't like them.

P2 Kisame>P2 Jiraiya>P1 Jiraiya>P1 Kisame based on feats hype and portrayal.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Yet later (Shippuden) we see Kisame challenge the man who killed the strongest of the Sannin. Would he do this if he felt himself inferior to the Sannin?



Can you elaborate more?



Troyse22 said:


> In P1 Kisame was merely a side character with little backstory and nothing impressive to show. When Kishi decided the Akatsuki ought to be more relevant and have them actually the main villains in the story for most of Shippuden, we saw him gain more power, with better portrayal, hype and feats.
> 
> If you think his P1 statement transfers over to P2 even when he directly shits all over his P1 statement, idk what to say besides you're being willfully ignorant and stupid because you're in denial.



So you're going to deny canon manga statements and feats just because you don't like them?






Troyse22 said:


> Honestly, i'm growing to detest these forums and the people participating in them. It's far too much bias and not only ignorance, but blatant stupidity on the part of a lot of posters here as they ignore manga facts if they don't like them.



If you are experecing issues with the forum, then feel free to make a thread in the  section. I'm sure @Easter Wolf and @Easter Platypus  will be happy to attend to any issues or concerns that you have.





Troyse22 said:


> P2 Kisame>P2 Jiraiya>P1 Jiraiya>P1 Kisame based on feats hype and portrayal.




Base Jiraiya > Kisame

Kisame himself admitted this and Base Jiraya defeated him effortlessly, simple as that.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Can you elaborate more?




Can't dig for the scan rn, but Kisame says something along the lines of

"Only Sasuke alone may go past me, the rest of you can wait right here with me"
"I have no interest in fighting you, but if you insist on going together i'll show no mercy"

Then we have Kisame competing against people like Killer Bee and Might Gai, who are individually vastly superior to Base Jiraiya 



Avalon said:


> So you're going to deny canon manga statements and feats just because you don't like them?



When later feats/hype/portrayal are shown contradicting old information, you ALWAYS go with the new information. ALWAYS. Believe it or not writers can change their minds down the line. And too many people refuse to accept that and dig their heels in and defend outdated information, like you're doing right now.



Avalon said:


> If you are experecing issues with the forum, then feel free to make a thread in the  section. I'm sure @Easter Wolf and @Easter Platypus will be happy to attend to any issues or concerns that you have.



The problem is honestly too big for mods to do anything about, and what said hypothetical posters are doing isn't ACTUALLY against rules. They're being incredibly stupid, trolly and ignorant of manga facts shoved in their faces.

But being stupid isn't against the rules

If it was at least half the NBD would be banned



Avalon said:


> Base Jiraiya > Kisame
> 
> Kisame himself admitted this and Base Jiraya defeated him effortlessly, simple as that.



True enough in P1.

But lets also look at what lead Kisame to make the statement and actions he did like logical, rational thinking human beings, which I hope you are.

Kisame didn't seem panicked or scared when Jiraiya used toad stomach, blatantly true, whether you like it or not.
ITACHI then orders the retreat, which actually put Kisame in a horrible position.
Yes it's true in P1 only, Itachi saved Kisame, but Itachi is also the reason Kisame was in that position.

If this were P2 Kisame with superhuman+ strength (Gai's words, not mine) don't you think it stands to reason he'd simply smash the wall from the side and break out, or shred the stomach with Samehada, or use shark based Ninjutsu to counter the flesh coming at him etc.

Base Jiraiya>P1 Kisame is indisputable

Current (P2) Kisame>Base Jiraiya is also just as indisputable.

I'm not gonna bother laying out why Kisame would absolutely destroy SM Jiraiya, but instead i'll focus on base Jiraiya. It's fascinating to me that you don't appear to be a troll, yet genuinely think base Jiraiya poses any realistic threat to Kisame

Uh-oh...do we have another Turrin/Serene Grace here


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Can't dig for the scan rn, but Kisame says something along the lines of
> 
> "Only Sasuke alone may go past me, the rest of you can wait right here with me"
> "I have no interest in fighting you, but if you insist on going together i'll show no mercy"
> ...



Your attempts at deflecting and moving the goal post won't work on me.

Either you explain how Kisame counters this jutsu, or concede and accept that Kisame is fodder to Base Jiraiya.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> For that to work, 33% of Jiraiya's reserves would have to be nearly 2x as large as Kisame's.
> 
> Wouldn't be crazy to see a Sannin wanker make that claim though.
> 
> ...


OH for gods sake... Made you feel better instantly calling me sannin wanker didn't it. Keep it up dude.

Jiraiya doesn't have to sing the frogs will. And you are worried about pitch getting garbled in a world Where a  shark looking dude can fuse with his sword and toads can talk. Smh.. We don't know if ma and PA  can sing underwater.
You half half the time worry about Jiraiya being Jiraiya but never took in the toad sages factor. Sad.
There is debating and then there is this where someone desperately brands some one as a fan wanker even though they have two shits worth of info about that guy. Great.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Your attempts at deflecting and moving the goal post won't work on me.
> 
> Either you explain how Kisame counters this jutsu, or concede and accept that Kisame is fodder to Base Jiraiya.



....I gave 3 possibilities in that post. Now you're deflecting. Address the rest of my post or concede.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> OH for gods sake... Made you feel better instantly calling me sannin wanker didn't it. Keep it up dude.
> 
> Jiraiya doesn't have to sing the frogs will. And you are worried about pitch getting garbled in a world Where a  shark looking dude can fuse with his sword and toads can talk. Smh.. We don't know if ma and PA  can sing underwater.
> You half half the time worry about Jiraiya being Jiraiya but never took in the toad sages factor. Sad.
> There is debating and then there is this where someone desperately brands some one as a fan wanker even though they have two shits worth of info about that guy. Great.




Basically it works because you want it to despite logic contradicting you.

Concession accepted.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> ....I gave 3 possibilities in that post. Now you're deflecting. Address the rest of my post or concede.


Kisame admitting he's fodder to Jiraiya, and then sweating and running away from Jiraiya and having to rely on Itachi to save his life proves that Base Jiraiya > Kisame.

All of this is supported by the manga.



Convenient that you don't have any manga panels to support your "3 possibilities". I guess Kishimoto doesn't agree with you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Kisame admitting he's fodder to Jiraiya, and then sweating and running away from Jiraiya and having to rely on Itachi to save his life proves that Base Jiraiya > Kisame.
> 
> All of this is supported by the manga.
> 
> ...




Meh I'm done.

Already refuted anything and I can reasonably conclude you cannot be reasoned with.

Gonna call upon a frenemy of mine to see it he wants to take over this Base Jiraiya vs Kisame discussion.

Normally I'd never tag you, but even you have to admit Kisame>Base Jiraiya is something you can debate seriously, as I've seen you state Kisame pushes SM Jiraiya hard

@WorldsStrongest let's put aside our differences and maybe debate something we both agree on


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Meh I'm done.



Concession accepted.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> @WorldsStrongest let's put aside our differences and maybe debate something we both agree on






Troyse22 said:


> Gonna call upon a frenemy of mine to see it he wants to take over this Base Jiraiya vs Kisame discussion.
> 
> Normally I'd never tag you, but even you have to admit Kisame>Base Jiraiya is something you can debate seriously, as I've seen you state Kisame pushes SM Jiraiya hard
> 
> @WorldsStrongest


Ive said Kisame gives Base Sannin a fight...Not SM Jman...

Ive said you could argue that a Jman who starts in base can also be argued to be challenged by Kisam


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Basically it works because you want it to despite logic contradicting you.
> 
> Concession accepted.



Yeah.. It does work in spite your unstoppable and uncontrolled love towards Kisame. Sound travels better underwater and MA and PA maybe able to sing underwater.. But wait against Kisame.. Noo.... Physics or anything doesn't apply to Kisame.. His armor of fan fiction biju Chakra negates all of it. Kisame.. who shit himself when  he saw jiraiya and said he was an another level, who got stopped by Gama San when he attacked Naruto and hot footed it like a black day sale when toad King mouth trap was used. Yeah that guy. Lol
Your ignorance is understandable and even though I don't have a choice, is accepted.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

@Troyse22 


Here is a manga panel of Base Jiraiya defeating Kisame.





Please link me a panel of Kisame defeating Base Jiraya and I will gladly concede. All I'm asking for is one simple panel, that shouldn't be too hard, right?


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> @Troyse22
> 
> 
> Here is a manga panel of Base Jiraiya defeating Kisame.
> ...


Ava...Im assuming you havent lurked here much before you decided to start posting here

But im just going to inform you that you are wasting your time if you actually want to convince troy of anything in this manga

He has his mind made up about it all, and cant be told otherwise

ESPECIALLY when itcomes to Kisame

As im sure youve already gathered, Troys a big fan of him

Take this for example


Serene Grace said:


> this guy thinks Kisame can beat fucking Hashirama, EMS Madara and BSM Naruto and also believes Kisame has superior reactions to Juudara


These are all legit claims troy has made in the past

Just giving you fair warning what youre getting into

If you wanna "debate" with him after this, thats up to u

Reactions: Funny 2


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Ava...Im assuming you havent lurked here much before you decided to start posting here
> 
> But im just going to inform you that you are wasting your time if you actually want to convince troy of anything in this manga
> 
> ...



I have actually never heard of Troy until he quoted me today. He's the first person who's negged me in a really long time.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 2


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## Marvel (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I have actually never heard of Troy until he quoted me today. He's the first person who's negged me in a really long time.


Get his ass back it’ll serve him right.

And pu crackhead in the neg message and see the salt


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## Marvel (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I have actually never heard of Troy until he quoted me today. He's the first person who's negged me in a really long time.


Get his ass back it’ll survive him right.

And put crackhead in the neg message and see the salt


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## FlamingRain (Apr 1, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Get his ass back it’ll survive him right.
> 
> And put crackhead in the neg message and see the salt



_Stop_ with this already.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Marvel (Apr 1, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> _Stop_ with this already.


I’m sorry.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Then we have Kisame competing against people Might Gai



I would like to address this claim. Perhaps we have different definitions of the word "compete"? English isn't my first language after all so I could be wrong, but this is what I recall happening when Kisame and Gai met on the battlefield multiple times.


*Spoiler*: __ 












Kisame can sure "compete" with Might Gai.

Reactions: Like 6


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 1, 2018)

Kisame's punch couldn't even do any lasting damage to Gai yet he's suddenly going to be busting out of toad mouth bind by smashing through it?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Kisame's punch couldn't even do any lasting damage to Gai yet he's suddenly going to be busting out of toad mouth bind by smashing through it?


Ikr.. If he could have busted out... He would have and not high tail it out of there when Jiraiya used it.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 1, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Ikr.. If he could have busted out... He would have and not high tail it out of there when Jiraiya used it.




Kisame only ran because Itachi told him to. Think about it, if Kisame were to use his large scale jutsu's inside that stomach, what did you think was gonna happen to everyone there?

Plus as far as I recall, Jiraiya has to be crouching down to control the stomach, so Kisame only needs to send a powerful attack at Jiraiya to stop it. Worst case scenario is he summons dozens of sharks and they start eating the stomach away as well as flood the entire stomach and drown Jiraiya, Naruto and Sasuke.


Only a retard would think Kisame would have been defeated by that technique despite all that we've seen from him.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2018)

First update of new chapter is out 
Tell me what you guys think please 
As I am baffled we still arguing a thread that has been done 1000 times always with the same popular opinion jiraiya wins
Meyer’s stepson


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Kisame only ran because Itachi told him to. Think about it, if Kisame were to use his large scale jutsu's inside that stomach, what did you think was gonna happen to everyone there?
> 
> Plus as far as I recall, Jiraiya has to be crouching down to control the stomach, so Kisame only needs to send a powerful attack at Jiraiya to stop it. Worst case scenario is he summons dozens of sharks and they start eating the stomach away as well as flood the entire stomach and drown Jiraiya, Naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Then why didn't Itachi ask Kisame to bust it instead of risking an Amaterasu. He knew he shouldn't do it often. Yet he did instead of letting Kisame handle it. 
Only an equally retarded person would think Kisame wasn't worried and would easily get out of it. You shoot down speculation from other posts but fill your own with it to the brim. Kisame could send a powerful attack but he did not. He stood like an oaf until Itachi told him to hot foot. So no clear indication that it would work ( real shame if you thought Jiraiya would sit by waiting for Kisame to use his jutsu). 
Even with all this they had to distract Jiraiya but were okay with fighting Kakashi even though it would be at a cost. SMH.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 1, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Then why didn't Itachi ask Kisame to bust it instead of risking an Amaterasu. He knew he shouldn't do it often. Yet he did instead of letting Kisame handle it.
> Only an equally retarded person would think Kisame wasn't worried and would easily get out of it. You shoot down speculation from other posts but fill your own with it to the brim. Kisame could send a powerful attack but he did not. He stood like an oaf until Itachi told him to hot foot. So no clear indication that it would work ( real shame if you thought Jiraiya would sit by waiting for Kisame to use his jutsu).
> Even with all this they had to distract Jiraiya but were okay with fighting Kakashi even though it would be at a cost. SMH.



noobs these days.... 


How else was Kishi supposed to hype Itachi if he made Kisame bust them out of there? If Kishi made Kisame do such a thing, you tards would start saying "Jiraiya solos Itachi with one move"!!!

The other alternative would be both Itachi AND Kisame worked together to bust out. Then you guys will be saying it requires TWO Akatsuki members to bust out of that technique and if it's only one of them they would die. 



It was explicitly stated that Itachi could have killed Kakashi. Why didn't he do it? Answer me that. 

Same reason why they'd rather avoid Jiraiya. Kisame even asked Itachi why they needed to retreat..Lmao.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> noobs these days....
> 
> 
> How else was Kishi supposed to hype Itachi if he made Kisame bust them out of there? If Kishi made Kisame do such a thing, you tards would start saying "Jiraiya solos Itachi with one move"!!!
> ...


OH learned high exalted ( sarcastic BTW.. Might take time for you) 
LMFAO... Seriously bro... To hype Itachi when itachi and Kisame themselves said Jiraiya is next level. 
But you being the kage level Kisame tard have already eclipsed all " jiraiya tards" via your speculation no jutsu. Congratulations.
That whole sequence was to hype jiraiya and not Itachi. His hype was during the Kakashi fight. 
And you say Kisame did not do It for itachi hype when he was busy with a midget toad.. Gtfo.. 

If Kisame would Solo jiraiya why not send him to fight jiraiya while Itachi can kidnap Naruto ? ... Wait.. For hype. Right. Jesus.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Just compliment Avalon and get a 14k rep from him.


This had me laughing...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Kisame only ran because Itachi told him to. Think about it, if Kisame were to use his large scale jutsu's inside that stomach, what did you think was gonna happen to everyone there?
> 
> Plus as far as I recall, Jiraiya has to be crouching down to control the stomach, so Kisame only needs to send a powerful attack at Jiraiya to stop it. Worst case scenario is he summons dozens of sharks and they start eating the stomach away as well as flood the entire stomach and drown Jiraiya, Naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> ...


Jiraiya controls the *shape and size* of the jutsu, flooding it with large-scale techniques would do nothing. How many times do I have to sit you down and explain this to you?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 1, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Jiraiya controls the *shape and size* of the jutsu, flooding it with large-scale techniques would do nothing. How many times do I have to sit you down and explain this to you?




Ahh, so the no-limit fallacy is OK with Jiraiya's techniques, right? Apparently he can make it SO LARGE that it can contain huge quantities of water. Right.


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## Azula (Apr 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Ahh, so the no-limit fallacy is OK with Jiraiya's techniques, right? Apparently he can make it SO LARGE that it can contain huge quantities of water. Right.



With Toad Stomach the issue is that is is vastly bigger than Kisame's sharks and would out-muscle them and beat them. Puny summons don't stand a chance against Giant summons. Then there is the fact that the walls were closing in on Itachi and Kisame fast. Samehada was stuck and Kisame had difficulty getting it out.

The Toad Stomach would get Kisame before he is able to get a meaningful defense, they had to run fast just to get out. Staying put would get them in trouble.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 1, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> With Toad Stomach the issue is that is is vastly bigger than Kisame's sharks and would out-muscle them and beat them. Puny summons don't stand a chance against Giant summons. Then there is the fact that the walls were closing in on Itachi and Kisame fast. Samehada was stuck and Kisame had difficulty getting it out.
> 
> The Toad Stomach would get Kisame before he is able to get a meaningful defense, they had to run fast just to get out. Staying put would get them in trouble.




Not sure how you can say “vastly bigger” when the technique only covered the corridor. Kisame’s 1000 sharks would fill it 10 times over. 

The strongest defends is a good offense. He won’t  be trying rob “defend” it. He will be attacking it. 

If what you say is true, you might as we’ll say ANYONE who doesn’t have Amateratsu or space-time jutsu gets oneshot by it, which is absurd.


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## Keishin (Apr 1, 2018)

Kisame has piss poor feats. J-man takes it.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Zero890 (Apr 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure how you can say “vastly bigger” when the technique only covered the corridor. Kisame’s 1000 sharks would fill it 10 times over.
> 
> The strongest defends is a good offense. He won’t  be trying rob “defend” it. He will be attacking it.
> 
> If what you say is true, you might as we’ll say ANYONE who doesn’t have Amateratsu or space-time jutsu gets oneshot by it, which is absurd.



The Jutsu literally summons the stomach of the biggest toad of Myoubokuzan ... small is not. Also everything that Kisame throws will simply be swallowed by the stomach, just like Kisame.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 1, 2018)

Gamaguchi Shibari doesn't need to be able to contain all of Bakusui Shōha, it just needs to be able to catch Kisame before it pops.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2018)

Happened in the manga. Jiraiya one shots.


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## Azula (Apr 1, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure how you can say “vastly bigger” when the technique only covered the corridor.



That's bigger than the sharks who are merely human and sometimes less than human size.



Sapherosth said:


> Kisame’s 1000 sharks would fill it 10 times over.



100 sharks was done beefed on Hachibi chakra and location advantage, without those Kisame will be down on the number of sharks.

And again the issue is time, he can't stay still much less do anything else. He will be captured by Toad Stomach before he can spew enough water and summon sharks.

Whatever water and shark he can summon lose to Toad Stomach.



Sapherosth said:


> If what you say is true, you might as we’ll say ANYONE who doesn’t have Amateratsu or space-time jutsu gets oneshot by it, which is absurd.



Others can use powerful jutsus to get out but Toad Stomach is still beating a lot of people.

Is Konan getting out? Hardly, she gets grabbed and beaten.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Get his ass back it’ll survive him right.
> 
> And put crackhead in the neg message and see the salt



Revenge negging is against the rules. He would just report me to a mod and I would get rep sealed for a few days.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

@Sapherosth don't bother.

I gave up not because I can't refute their points, it's that this will end in "agree to disagree" because they're so intellectually stubborn that even if proven wrong, they'll dig their heels in, put their fingers in their ears and yell lalalalalalala

You're only going to irritate yourself. We've gotten to the point where were questioning a mid-high tier Akatsuki members ability to break one of base Jiraiyas basic jutsu.

I'm aware of what happened.
But one can't genuinely believe Kisame can't break that jutsu GIVEN HIS LATER FEATS. Anyone who thinks that is either trolling, or retarded.

This will be my last post for a long time, I'm taking a break from the NBD simply because im tired of debating with people who cannot be reasoned with in any way, even if you outright prove them wrong.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 1, 2018)

Homie's taking this stuff too seriously

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> I have actually never heard of Troy until he quoted me today. He's the first person who's negged me in a really long time.


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

You shouldn't leave a section you love just because people don't share the same opinion as you about a fictional blue shark. In fact, this section would be extremely boring if everyone had the same opinion on everything. What makes this section fun is the large quantity of different opinions and interpretations on events.

You're one of the most well known and famous members of the Naruto Battledome, and it would be a shame if you left it Troyse22.

You should continue to stay and be active in the Naruto Battledome.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> @Sapherosth don't bother.
> 
> I gave up not because I can't refute their points, it's that this will end in "agree to disagree" because they're so intellectually stubborn that even if proven wrong, they'll dig their heels in, put their fingers in their ears and yell lalalalalalala
> 
> ...


The salt here is too much 
Have a happy time away.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> You shouldn't leave a section you love just because people don't share the same opinion as you about a fictional blue shark. In fact, this section would be extremely boring if everyone had the same opinion on everything. What makes this section fun is the large quantity different opinoins and interpretations on things.
> 
> You're one of the most well known and famous members of the Naruto Battledome, and it would be a shame if you left it Troyse22.
> 
> You should continue to stay and be active in the Naruto Battledome.



I have little issue with people disagreeing with me.
I wouldn't have stuck around for as long as I have if I did.

The problem is blatant stupidity and ignorance of posters as of late. You can give them all the facts in the world that support your argument and refute theirs, and they'll quote you saying "nice deflecting prove me wrong" or some autistic, window licking drivel like that even though you just came from proving them wrong.

That is a problem with some new posters coming in the NBD. People like @SakuraLover16 @Charmed have adapted well to the NBD, and can be reasoned with despite being new posters. But some of the people i've been arguing with lately are just outright stupid, and there's no nice way to put it.

It's not Kisame related topics, it's all topics in general. Once they have their mind made up on something, they cannot be changed even if proven wrong. That in my opinion does not make any kind of respectable debater. A debater has to be willing to open their mind up to the other person's opinion, and if they're proven wrong they have to admit it, plain and simple.

Even though I said 


Troyse22 said:


> This will be my last post for a long time,



I feel with this post, it clarifies why i'm taking a break rather than leave people with guesses. I'm aware i'm one of the most well known and influential debaters in the NBD, but a few bad eggs have spoiled this section for me. Frankly when I return it will be once the activity of these users have stopped, or have slowed considerably.

I genuinely hope you guys see the stupidity of your ways, and actually educate yourselves in some matters, bye.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> I have little issue with people disagreeing with me.
> I wouldn't have stuck around for as long as I have if I did.
> 
> The problem is blatant stupidity and ignorance of posters as of late. You can give them all the facts in the world that support your argument and refute theirs, and they'll quote you saying "nice deflecting prove me wrong" or some autistic, window licking drivel like that even though you just came from proving them wrong.
> ...


BTW... Try to get some proof to backup you claims on this thread when you come back. 
Bye


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## Ashi (Apr 1, 2018)

It should be closer than everyone else is making it out to be...

Kisame held his own against a V2 Jim, J man might actually have a run for his money this time

Reactions: Agree 2


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

You're overreacting, Troy.

Take a day or two to cool down, and then hopefully return to the Naruto Battledome again once more.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 1, 2018)

Ohs...... I am open to new ideas and I can be wrong most of the time. I agree with Avalon frustration is the bane of a poster's existence take a few days and recuperate I look forward to debating with you again XD.


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## Zero890 (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse negged me


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Troyse negged me


lol

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Troyse negged me


He negged me also.


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## Zero890 (Apr 1, 2018)

Thanks @Avalon

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 1, 2018)

Zero890 said:


> Thanks @Avalon


Avalon is so sweet XD

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> lol


Thanks... That guy took 1448 x 2 just because he didn't like someone refuting him. 
Thanks again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Avalon is so sweet XD





Zero890 said:


> Thanks @Avalon



No problem.

I think I got everyone that Troy negged.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> No problem.
> 
> I think I got everyone that Troy negged.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> No problem.
> 
> I think I got everyone that Troy negged.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## A Optimistic (Apr 1, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


>



Bad luck. 



Remind me in a few hours.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Azula (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Once they have their mind made up on something, they cannot be changed even if proven wrong.



This happens for almost any topic.

We need activity here so continue posting here and relax.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 1, 2018)

Avalon said:


> No problem.
> 
> I think I got everyone that Troy negged.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 1, 2018)

Close battle, Jiraiya ain't low or mid diffing shit around here.

If and when Kisame takes control of the battlefield by flooding it, Jiraiya won't have an easy time dealing with all the big scale techniques Kisame can effortlessly muster up with the surrounding water.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 1, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kisame can effortlessly muster up with the surrounding water.


throwing large-scale water that take over the battlefield would actually help Jiraiya though

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 1, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> throwing large-scale water that take over the battlefield would actually help Jiraiya though



It would help if you could clarify how Jiraiya would take advantage of this lol.

Jiraiya is quite crafty so I'm curious as to what you could be thinking of.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 1, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> It would help if you could clarify how Jiraiya would take advantage of this lol.
> 
> Jiraiya is quite crafty so I'm curious as to what you could be thinking of.


He can utilize his barriers such as Gama Hydrou(toad gourd summoning), and Gama no mise(toad house summoning) underwater


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## Mithos (Apr 1, 2018)

Or just turn the water into a sea of burning oil to roast Kisame...

He can also just evaporate all of Kisame's self-made lake with _Fire Release: Toad Oil Flamethrower_.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 1, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> He can utilize his barriers such as Gama Hydrou(toad gourd summoning), and Gama no mise(toad house summoning) underwater



Not sure why this would help Jiraiya much considering that he can probably summon them in land as well and I don't see Kisame or his hundreds of sharks going into a Sage convenience store to shop for gifts or letting a small toad summon drag them inside his stomach lmao.

Better suited for stealth environments imo.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 1, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Not sure why this would help Jiraiya much considering that he can probably summon them in land as well


The toads are underwater, if he fights Jiraiya in the same way he did guy where he was above the surface, the toad could suck up and surprise Kisame while he's occupied with Jiraiya



Crimson Flam3s said:


> letting a small toad summon drag them inside his stomach lmao.


The toad(toad gourd summoning I'm referring to) sucks the opponent up into the barrier. If Jiraiya gets a good enough distraction Kisame along with his sharks can be sucked into the barrier into the acid.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Sage convenience store to shop for gifts


Lel meant this summoning(), where he hides in the tiny toad. Toad allowed him to enter Ame without being detected. Surely he can use it to surprise Kisame



Crimson Flam3s said:


> Better suited for stealth environments imo.


Didn't Jiraiya enter Amekagure undetected in an environment with a large body of water? Water ain't no restriction for J-man's stealth

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> @Sapherosth don't bother.
> 
> I gave up not because I can't refute their points, it's that this will end in "agree to disagree" because they're so intellectually stubborn that even if proven wrong, they'll dig their heels in, put their fingers in their ears and yell lalalalalalala
> 
> ...



Tbh while I have always thought jiraiya wins 
I would never think something as stupid as kisame looses to one of jiraiya base jutsu 

Nor do I somehow think kisame can’t absorb sage jutsu 
When preta path did so just fine

What confuses me though is why you get frustrated so much 

Honestly I am baffled

Reactions: Agree 1 | Neutral 1


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## narut0ninjafan (Apr 1, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> @Sapherosth don't bother.
> 
> I gave up not because I can't refute their points, it's that this will end in "agree to disagree" because they're so intellectually stubborn that even if proven wrong, they'll dig their heels in, put their fingers in their ears and yell lalalalalalala
> 
> ...



Concession accepted

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ashi (Apr 1, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Avalon is so sweet XD



He gets it from me, he and I are best friends on here.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 1, 2018)

Ashi said:


> He gets it from me, he and I are best friends on here.


Awww friendship XD


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## Ashi (Apr 1, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Awww friendship XD

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 1, 2018)

Kirby is bae

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ashi (Apr 1, 2018)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Kirby is bae



Kirbae

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Sapherosth (Apr 2, 2018)

-Azula- said:


> That's bigger than the sharks who are merely human and sometimes less than human size.



Kisame has summoned sharks that are bigger than humans. Don't downplay. 





> 100 sharks was done beefed on Hachibi chakra and location advantage, without those Kisame will be down on the number of sharks.



Kisame himself has Bijuu level chakra. To say he can't achieve something like that is ridiculous. Location advantage isn't a problem when Kisame can produce the water sources himself. 




> And again the issue is time, he can't stay still much less do anything else. He will be captured by Toad Stomach before he can spew enough water and summon sharks.



So basically Jiraiya's toad stomach is so fast that Kisame can't even weave handsigns? Impossible. Why can't he use it while running? Standing still isn't a requirement for someone to use jutsu's. 




> Whatever water and shark he can summon lose to Toad Stomach.



Except the toad stomach itself is still a stomach of a living being. Living beings have chakra. Kisame absorbs chakra. There's nothing stopping Kisame from fusing with Samehada and then absorbing the toad's chakra and killing it from the inside.  Kisame has already absorbed bijuu level chakra extremely fast, so the toad should be easy.



> Others can use powerful jutsus to get out but Toad Stomach is still beating a lot of people.
> 
> Is Konan getting out? Hardly, she gets grabbed and beaten.




Konan will just explode the entire thing inside out. She loses to Jiraiya's oil techs, but the toad tech isn't something she loses to.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 2, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Except the toad stomach itself is still a stomach of a living being. Living beings have chakra. Kisame absorbs chakra. There's nothing stopping Kisame from fusing with Samehada and then absorbing the toad's chakra and killing it from the inside. Kisame has already absorbed bijuu level chakra extremely fast, so the toad should be easy.



Itachi used Amaterasu on the toad from inside... And yet jiraiya didn't seem to be overly concerned about the toad's well being.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 2, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Itachi used Amaterasu on the toad from inside... And yet jiraiya didn't seem to be overly concerned about the toad's well being.



Not sure how it relates to the toad stomach itself being immune to damages or other types of counter attacks. Only reason this is even a debate was because it was only used once and never used again so the amount of counters that we can see used against it is limited unlike many other techniques.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 2, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure how it relates to the toad stomach itself being immune to damages or other types of counter attacks. Only reason this is even a debate was because it was only used once and never used again so the amount of counters that we can see used against it is limited unlike many other techniques.


You said Kisame could kill the toad. My point was to refute that if anything would kill it.. Jiraiya would undo a jutsu. Remember when he asked Gama Ken to leave when he was taking hits against pains summons, safe to assume jiraiya doesn't want to cause great harm to his summons. And amaterasu blew a hole in the stomach and jiraiya was unfazed and more worried about the technique that could do it. 
You already proved why both our statements don't have much weight. The jutsu was only used once and just like how we don't know its damage tanking capabilities, we also don't know if any offense from  Kisame would actually do anything to it or the toad.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 2, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> You said Kisame could kill the toad. My point was to refute that if anything would kill it.. Jiraiya would undo a jutsu. Remember when he asked Gama Ken to leave when he was taking hits against pains summons, safe to assume jiraiya doesn't want to cause great harm to his summons. And amaterasu blew a hole in the stomach and jiraiya was unfazed and more worried about the technique that could do it.
> You already proved why both our statements don't have much weight. The jutsu was only used once and just like how we don't know its damage tanking capabilities, we also don't know if any offense from  Kisame would actually do anything to it or the toad.



Since the technique was only used once, why the hell would the no knowledge about the technique work AGAINST Kisame?

To say that it works against Kisame because we haven't seen enough of the technique's capabilities and limits is ridiculous considering the fact that we've seen Kisame dealt with much stronger techniques.


If Jiraiya undoes the toad mouth trap jutsu then Kisame just succeeds in escaping from it, which is my entire point. Kisame won't lose from that jutsu alone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Apr 2, 2018)

did jiraiya win yet?

Reactions: Like 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 2, 2018)

Don't feel bad guys @Troyse22 is the only person who has negg me on this site as well. 
It's just the cost of having your own opinion I guess.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Kisame has summoned sharks that are bigger than humans. Don't downplay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Still amazing people believed that single jutsu is something that can defeat an akatsuki bar hidan 
Not even neutralisé but defeat

It’s hilarious 
Ps: please check my sig

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Don't feel bad guys @Troyse22 is the only person who has negg me on this site as well.
> It's just the cost of having your own opinion I guess.


And to prove me wrong he neggs me again and adds a dislike.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 2, 2018)

Hi no Ishi said:


> And to prove me wrong he neggs me again and adds a dislike.


He's like a 9 year old...he'll neg me for this too.

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 2, 2018)

Kisame can honestly one-shot in close range. He ragdolled V1 Killer B and absorbed six tails' worth of chakra in one go.
Jiraiya has significantly less chakra than that, so he won't last too long. The same thing goes for his summons, who would also get destroyed with little difficulty.

A ranged game makes no difference. Kisame's scale would overwhelm Jiraiya.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 2, 2018)

@walpurgis Burgoo


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## Hi no Ishi (Apr 2, 2018)

Thanks for the rep back guys!

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Revenge negging is against the rules


I did not know this 

If i had, id have lost considerably less rep over the years


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