# Most Overrated Character



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 2, 2016)

Opposite to


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## hbcaptain (Feb 2, 2016)

I think Pain and Nagato .


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## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi, Minato & Jiraiya. I don't think that one really stands out from the others, I wouldn't say that there are a lot of wankers here anymore but I don't necessarily agree with many views of aforementioned characters.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 2, 2016)

War Kakashi is also a little overrated , he isn't at Minato/Tobirama's level .


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## Kai (Feb 2, 2016)

Minato for the most part.


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## Saru (Feb 2, 2016)

Let me tell you how I really feel. 

Jiraiya. The fact that some people think he can take on some of the characters shown after his death (and _win_) is frankly unwarranted and laughable. In order to justify this, one essentially has to dumb down the strength of a good portion of the manga (in order bring people _down_ to Jiraiya's level) in order to come across as reasonable and not get outright laughed at. It's frustrating, because Jiraiya is already stronger than a vast majority of characters anyway, but people push it over the top. Minato is not overrated. At least his strength is warranted by feats and hype. Nagato, Pain, and Itachi are not overrated. All have the hype and feats to back up an argument being made in their favor in most reasonable situations (i.e. not something silly like Minato vs. Madara or Itachi vs. Hashirama) against most characters, period.

Minato's and Itachi's fanbases may be annoying, but that's likely because they're significantly larger than Jiraiya's, so their presence is constant. But one of the reasons that these character have large fanbases is that they're significantly stronger than Jiraiya is. Strength attracts more fans; go figure. It's not exactly a coincidence some of the strongest characters in the manga are also the most well-liked, generally speaking.

*@Below*: Don't get me started.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 2, 2016)

Sound 5


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## Bringer (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi. 
Itachi.
Itachi.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2016)

Which character is most often overrated and which character is overrated to the greatest extent would probably be different.

But either way just about every character has been overrated, and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 2, 2016)

Madara and Hashirama are both a little overrated as well because both of them are the last non-god tier legends .


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## t0xeus (Feb 2, 2016)

Ay, Tsunade and Kakuzu are overrated as fuck, but not by many users fortunatelly.

Also I have nothing against you personally (actually I like&respect you) Izaya, but you overrate Orochimaru and Jiraiya so much.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Sound 5

Itachi 

Hebi Sasuke 

Jiraiya 

Underrated : minato , kakuzu , orochimaru


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## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.



What do you mean by this?


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi - typical genjutsu gg bullshit
Minato - listen he can not beat everyone. Hashirama destroys
Hebi sasuke - never understood this one. Mid tier kage at best
Ei - omg he's fast bltiz gg bullshit


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## Saru (Feb 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> *Underrated : minato* , kakuzu , orochimaru







Maybe by his haters, but that shouldn't count.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 2, 2016)

Tobirama's reaction speed is also overrated as hell , to think some are putting his speed above Juubito's while he admitted himself he can't last one fragment of second if he fought him ....


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## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Itachi - typical genjutsu gg bullshit



In all honesty I think that Genjutsu is underrated. You can argue that Itachi won't land Genjutsu but there are some people who rank 3 Tomoe Genjutsu as completely useless. I don't understand this since even 3 seconds of an opponent caught unawares is enough for Itachi to swoop in and kill them. Then there are those that say the partner method is an amazing counter to Genjutsu when it still takes a vital few seconds to break out of. Genjutsu can be a game changer and decide the victor of the battle, a lot of people don't like to acknowledge that.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Lol @saru
Yup

so many people go on like without hirashin the guy could not even pressure the likes of asuma with pure speed 

Or make it sound like he simply isn't up there in speed when he clearly must be considering his technique is also very based on him being very fast 

Cant spread marks quickly enough means he will die to Ay. Yet outclassed him so bad Ay considered him legendary 

bee shivered !!

If it was so easy to counter Kunai or if he was as slow as some think without them then there would be nothing legendary about that 

A should eat him alive , if the gap in physical speed was large at all

Eg: asuma with hirashin would still die to Ay, every time


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi ~ He has the largest fan base on this entire forum even more than the titular character and his rival , so naturally everything about him is overrated and everyone else who is tied to him is overrated as well 

Kakashi~Kamui GG


Ei~ He trolled Sharingan's with his speed so he must be uber strong right ?


Deidara~ Trolled by Itachi's genjutsu so he must be high cage tier right , and he plays to the OOC feat whores who think he's going to fly on his bird and drop bombs that would make the whole world explode 


Hebi Sasuke~ Was proven to be weaker than Itachi so he must be high kage right ?



Kimmimaro~ He has no ties to Itachi so I'm confused as to why he's overrated , maybe his untapped potential leaves the fans wanting more from him


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## Duhul10 (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi is probably the most overrated and then you have War arc 1MS Kakashi.
A is also overrated .. way too overrated.
LoL'd at someone saying Itachi is not overrated.
LeL at Jiraiya being overrated, when people actually believe hebi Sasuke is faster, stronger, more physically reactive, better overall compared to Jiraiya.
Would you like to know why Itachi is the most overrated ? Because his fans are the most subjective of all.
This hing has been proven to me many times, but as the latest example I could give, well that would be the
KCM Naruto vs Edo Itachi thread, where people ( of course the obvious Itachi fans with Itachi avatars or uchiha avatars or even without them) actually believed that it is a very though match-up and that it would go either way, because Itachi has the totsuka shit who canonically blitzed speedsters or was implied to do so, amaterasu which is so fast that someone faster than A can't dodge. Some even stated that Itachi would hang with a serious unrestricted kcm Naruto in cqc, when he got painfully trolled by base Killer B.
   Another reason why Itachi is the most overrated character in the entire manga, is represented by the fact that he always gets a '' feats transfer''. His edo self, gives it's feats to his weak alive state, where he could not avoid a shuriken nor a lame fireball and his amaterasu was not even catching up with hebi sasuke until he almost got blinded.
    I do not see why Minato is overrated. I've barely seen Minato fans stating stupid things, but maybe I am wrong :?


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## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> LeL at Jiraiya being overrated, when people actually believe hebi Sasuke is faster, stronger, more physically reactive, better overall compared to Jiraiya



Hebi Sasuke is faster and more reflexive than Jiraiya, or at least his feats/hype in speed are better than Jiraiya's.

Hebi Sasuke also is more durable than Jiraiya when he accesses CS, but I don't know about strength.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Which character is most often overrated and which character is overrated to the greatest extent would probably be different.
> 
> But either way just about every character has been overrated, and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.


This is a good post actually. I don't really mind when people overrate/underrate characters(in my opinion). It's how they do it. Some simply state their opinion and try to change yours. While others aren't that nice and polite.


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## Deer Lord (Feb 2, 2016)

Hebi Sauce, Itachi, Kakashi, Kimimaro


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## Duhul10 (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Hebi Sasuke is faster and more reflexive than Jiraiya, or at least his feats/hype in speed are better than Jiraiya's.
> 
> Hebi Sasuke also is more durable than Jiraiya when he accesses CS, but I don't know about strength.



hope you are referring to base Jiraiya. otherwise you would be overrating an overrated character in a thread about overrating characters. XD


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## Drake (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> In all honesty I think that Genjutsu is underrated.



Itachi's genjutsu and Tsukoyomi are actually extremely good against most non-Uchiha characters. It seems to me that people just don't want to accept that someone can defeat someone else with a "regular" ability. After all, you don't see too many battledome threads where somebody wins with a "regular" skill like taijutsu or ninjutsu, and it's usually a special ability like Mangekyou or Sage Mode that people focus on.


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## Saru (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Which character is most often overrated and which character is overrated to the greatest extent would probably be different.
> 
> But either way just about every character has been overrated, and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.





Alex Payne said:


> This is a good post actually. I don't really mind when people overrate/underrate characters(in my opinion). It's how they do it. Some simply state their opinion and try to change yours. While others aren't that nice and polite.




And I would have to agree with this for the most part. I personally don't care about etiquette in discussion (although being polite is obviously a positive thing), but one should at least make their posts substantive rather than use one-liners, insults, or smilies to augment their argument... But that's another problem altogether.


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## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

Drake said:


> Itachi's genjutsu and Tsukoyomi are actually extremely good against most non-Uchiha characters. It seems to me that people just don't want to accept that someone can defeat someone else with a "regular" ability. After all, you don't see too many battledome threads where somebody wins with a "regular" skill like taijutsu or ninjutsu, and it's usually a special ability like Mangekyou or Sage Mode that people focus on.



Well, I think the problem is that people think it's too easy or that it's low level. For example, many people would have difficulty believing that a Kage level would fall to Genjutsu even when there's no implication that they are especially resistant to Genjutsu. It seems that Genjutsu is perceived as some sort of Genin technique that everyone and their mother can counter with the utmost ease. Even Danzo (with Sharingan himself) fell to subtle 3 Tomoe Genjutsu. 



Duhul10 said:


> hope you are referring to base Jiraiya.



Obviously, Jiraiya doesn't magically start in SM. Jiraiya's main form is base, his amped form is Sage Mode.


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## t0xeus (Feb 2, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> I do not see why Minato is overrated. I've barely seen Minato fans stating stupid things, but maybe I am wrong :?



Just few examples.
Whenever you have matchup with no knowledge and Minato is IC, people start claiming that Minato throws kunai and kills thanks to FTG the opponent, no matter how strong he is.
People claiming he can FTG EMS' users PS away, or that he can use the S/T barrier to teleport attacks like PS on them.

While it's not really impossible, it just feels OOC and just unreal abusery of his FTG.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.


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## hbcaptain (Feb 2, 2016)

One FTG user already teleported one Full Kurama's BD low diff according to feats , I don't see how PS sword is more dangerous than this


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## Duhul10 (Feb 2, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Just few examples.
> Whenever you have matchup with no knowledge and Minato is IC, people start claiming that Minato throws kunai and kills thanks to FTG the opponent, no matter how strong he is.
> People claiming he can FTG EMS' users PS away, or that he can use the S/T barrier to teleport attacks like PS on them.
> 
> While it's not really impossible, it just feels OOC and just unreal abusery of his FTG.



Okay.
Well, those things did not happen lately as I recall.
 The first thing could happen for sure even to some kage levels. Though I certainly do not see Minato blitzing anything past low mid's maybe, in one ftg attempt.   Example young B.
Still, thing which makes Minato an unbelievable opponent, is the fact that after spreading his kunais, he could quickly blindside an opponent multiple times and not only that but in cqc an enemy can be marked himself.


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## t0xeus (Feb 2, 2016)

@hbcaptain Read my last paragraph, I know it's possible but I just can't imagine Minato actually doing something like that in a real battle. It costs too much chakra and is just too risky to do when you don't even know if it's enough to destroy enemy's PS.

It feels too OOC for him to do something like that, he only ever used S/T barrier to defend himself&his allies/village.


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## Matty (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi is one of my favorite characters in anything. It pains me to see how much he is wanked, he's bottom to mid tier of the high Kage fighters.

Minato is almost simultaneously overrated and underrated.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Omg can't believe I forgot 

Katsuyu by a long long mile


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## hbcaptain (Feb 2, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> @hbcaptain Read my last paragraph, I know it's possible but I just can't imagine Minato actually doing something like that in a real battle. It costs too much chakra and is just too risky to do when you don't even know if it's enough to destroy enemy's PS.
> 
> It feels too OOC for him to do something like that, he only ever used S/T barrier to defend himself&his allies/village.


Well when you see "EMS Madara's PS one shot *KCM *Minato in one slash" (don't tell me KCM Minato is lacking chakra) or "Minato will see PS's sword coming at him and he won't have time to launch a Kunai to teleport or teleport PS's sword instead of PS itself" , so yeah he is underrated .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Minato. 
Hard to believe after the war arc, but yeah he still tops the list somehow.

Followed closely by SM Naruto.

Can someone make the most overrated jutsu thread too ?


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## t0xeus (Feb 2, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well when you see "EMS Madara's PS one shot *KCM *Minato in one slash" (don't tell me KCM Minato is lacking chakra) or "Minato will see PS's sword coming at him and he won't have time to launch a Kunai to teleport or teleport PS's sword instead of PS itself" , so yeah he is underrated .



Ok, fair enough, I just found it stupid when people say it repeatedly but if they use it like in the examples you mentioned then I don't have any problems with it. I just wanted to show to Duhul10 in what examples Minato is sometimes overrated.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato.
> Hard to believe after the war arc, but yeah he still tops the list somehow.
> 
> Followed closely by SM Naruto.
> ...



Surprised you think war arc made him look bad 

Certainly did a lot better than A who u have no issues overhyping

Not like anyone being mentioned here bar gai could have had the slightest possible chance of doing better than Minato did against the juubi jin's 

All mentioned so far would be sooooo horribly out of place it would be hilarious 

Namely itachi . Plug out minato put itachi in , he couldn't possibly do anytning against either Jin or even contribute


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Surprised you think war arc made him look bad
> 
> Certainly did a lot better than A who u have no issues overhyping
> 
> ...



A almost lost to Sasuke before war arc. He didn't lose that much in the war arc.
As you know the higher you are, the harder you fall. A was never that high.

In Minato's case, War arc destroyed his invinciblity aura. We saw that he wasn't perfect.,

edit : 
Itachi'd defeat Obito with help from Tobirama. We know that Naruto landed a blow on Obito with hirashin. Itachi'd do the same, but with totsuka and seal him.
We know that it doesn't bode well for characters who rant in front of Itachi.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Which character is most often overrated and which character is overrated to the greatest extent would probably be different.
> 
> But either way just about every character has been overrated, and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.


Yeah, can't be quoted enough I agree with this. It's a debate forum so opinions are supposed to be different otherwise place would die.

Only time I think characters are overrated or underrated is when they start getting compared to people I feel are many times more powerful such as Madara or Hashirama. So I guess for me its mads and hashi are underrated. They get compared to characters that wouldn't even give them a proper warm up half the time .

There was thread about Hashi vs Tsukiyomi awhile ago and Niku said something that basically  summed up my thoughts on the matter pretty comedicly.



Nikushimi said:


> Well, really only one of two things can happen:
> 
> 1. Hashirama is knocked out, like any other scrub without a Doujutsu.
> 
> ...


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## Itachi san88 (Feb 2, 2016)

Minato


Gai 8 gates some times
Itachi 
Kakashi/Obito (kamui, mostly)
Naruto/Sasuke some times
Jiraiya


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> A almost lost to Sasuke before war arc. He didn't lose that much in the war arc.
> As you know the higher you are, the harder you fall. A was never that high.
> 
> In Minato's case, War arc destroyed his invinciblity aura. We saw that he wasn't perfect.,
> ...



you mean outside the 1 battle he had during war arc where he needed saving? 

yes by your statement of the higher you are the harder you fall doesn't that mean you place minato above A? so how is he overrated

 he lost to 10 tail jin's. What did you expect exactly? not like others can replicate said feat of trolling him. 2 10 tail jins exist that's it

please explain itachi defeating juubito with help from tobirama when neither can use senjutsu 

love your imagination. ps: you  are plugging itachi in for Naruto not minato which is what I was arguing. unless ur argument is minato couldn't have struck obito if tobirama decided to jump with him

also totsuka lacks senjutsu last I checked. any evidence it can seal him?

1) itachi in minato situation in the war means, they would have died to juubi dama off the bat. As he can nothing but die against juubidama. *Minato in base saved them*
2) cant save the alliance from obito quad BD.* Minato in base with Naruto help could have done that btw. *
3) cant even buy the slightest of split second in a battle against juudara or even get in his face. *Done in SM something he had while alive*
4) could not possibly assist in getting the kages in position for the barrier used to contain juubi

In no situation can anyone mentioned here have actually been more useful to the alliance than minato was. except of course gai who well with 8 gates had been hyped since part 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Are you saying that Totsuka can't pierce Juubito ? 
When Sasuke's butt naked katana can pierce Juudara ?

Also black Zetsu trolled Minato too. Stole Kyuubi from him and then escaped before Minato could hit him.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you saying that Totsuka can't pierce Juubito ?
> When Sasuke's butt naked katana can pierce Juudara ?
> 
> Also black Zetsu trolled Minato too. Stole Kyuubi from him and then escaped before Minato could hit him.



Am saying before juubito is sealed he can lol negate the blade going through his gut. 

Lol . Black zetsu trolled Judara . What's your point again ?


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## Vice (Feb 2, 2016)

Itachi
Anyone remotely associated with Itachi just so that he looks better, IE: Hebi Sasuke, Kisame, Deidara, etc.
Sound 5
Hidan


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## Amol (Feb 2, 2016)

Sound Fodders. All 5.
The Worlds most wanked irrelevant side side side side side side side characters.
They frankly makes some kind of record.


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## Pompey magnus (Feb 2, 2016)

Saru said:


> Let me tell you how I really feel.
> 
> Jiraiya. The fact that some people think he can take on some of the characters shown after his death (and _win_) is frankly unwarranted and laughable. In order to justify this, one essentially has to dumb down the strength of a good portion of the manga (in order bring people _down_ to Jiraiya's level) in order to come across as reasonable and not get outright laughed at. It's frustrating, because Jiraiya is already stronger than a vast majority of characters anyway, but people push it over the top. Minato is not overrated. At least his strength is warranted by feats and hype. Nagato, Pain, and Itachi are not overrated. All have the hype and feats to back up an argument being made in their favor in most reasonable situations (i.e. not something silly like Minato vs. Madara or Itachi vs. Hashirama) against most characters, period.
> 
> ...



This soo much. I mean i am relatively new and mostly just hang around doing nothing but the amount of "gueralla tactics gg" I have seen in favour of Jiraiya is simply too much. Itachi and Minato at least deserve some of the hype they get. Come on guys.


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## Bringer (Feb 2, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya is _not_ stealthy. He's got what, two to three jutsu suited for stealth?



To be fair, isn't that more stealth jutsu's than most characters.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

@rocky his fighting style can be used for guerilla tactics though but yes people took it way overboard 

Jiriaya is known for his infiltration abilities mind you 

So while some push it too far it's not nearly as ridiculous as you think 

And yes Jiriaya can't fight like kidomaru because kidomaru style is more suited to it . That's about it 

But you can't ignore 

- being able to hide his entire body in a tiny ass toad 
- toad flatness tech
- motion barrier which means he could really target you even if you are out of his LOS
- toad stomach , means he can lead you to an enclosed space to use it 
- toad gourd prison which can drag you into a barrier in a field of his choosing . where any number of traps may or may not have been set 

His techniques can work in a decent tactical manner which it did against pain 

I think what vexes you is everyone auto thinks he will fight like that 

But mind you , Jiriaya had 1 fight in the manga and that's how he fought


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## Alex Payne (Feb 2, 2016)

Only one with an actual Spy Network
Spied on one of the most illusive character in the manga for years, learned about Akatsuki.
Showed most out of stealth-based move than any other character.

Jiraiya is quite overrated imo. But not in that area.


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## Trojan (Feb 2, 2016)

1- DMS Kakashi.

The guy got a little fraction of warned out Obito, and yet people believe he is on Kaguya, RSM Narudo, Rinnegan Sasuke...etc level 

2- Madara/Hashirama

Overrated as fuck. Madara (even before the Juubi) is supposedly able to defeat JJ Obito, 8th Gate Gai, his PS
is stronger than Toneri's sword...etc etc

Hashirama, just speak and no one would blame you. 
"Cuz he is Hashirama", or any of his threads will turn to be "Madara did this and that" just try to use this logic
with anyone else 

Like saying, Narudo is one of the most powerful Genjutsu user because his rival is Sasuke who is extremely powerful with Genjutsu

Or Hashirama defeats Adult Narudo and Adult Sasuke because they used Kurama&PS to defeat Momoshiki.
And Hashirama defeated that combo with Madara, therefore he is stronger than them and stronger than Momoshiki

Yeah, you wouldn't find any worst logic in the world than it is with madara and hashirama.

3- itachi

Self-explanatory 

4- Tobirama.

Like, no, we will not accept that he was defeated by X and Y because it does not suit us.
His statements are wrong because we haven't seen it, I mean you wouldn't happen to believe someone who 
claim that air exist when you can't see it, that is crazy! 

5- Hebi Sasuke

What a total joke lol. The MS is meant to be a superior power-up, and we have seen him barely keeping up
with the characters of the Kage-level, and yet people think his Hebi self can almost defeat any Kage/Sannin 

6- MS Obito

some times, it depends


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## $Kakashi$ (Feb 2, 2016)

DMS Kakashi is pretty overrated, hitting a distracted Kaguya is impressive, but there's a limit.

Momoshiki from the Boruto movie is also overrated, wow he gave a rusty Sasuke and Naruto a fight, That isn't very impressive imo, especially when even the 5 Kage's were able to keep up with him.


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Prime Hanzo

The guy is featless and simply didn't even slightly live up to his hype 

His only jutsu is dissapointing at best .


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## Trojan (Feb 2, 2016)

Nothing implied that they were rusty in the movie to be honest. 

he even crushed their PS/Kurama with elements jutsu. 
And then he counterattacked Sasuke's S/T jutsu and smashed him...etc


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Am saying before juubito is sealed he can lol negate the blade going through his gut.


Thats debatable.The sealing starts working pretty much instantly as Kabuto's control over Nagato was overriden the moment he was stabbed.



> Lol . Black zetsu trolled Judara . What's your point again ?



The difference is, Zetsu and Madara were allies.

Against Minato he simply came from underground and then escaped like whack a mole. And Minato was genuinely mad.


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## Matty (Feb 2, 2016)

Forgot about hebi and prime hanzo. I think most people would say sound 5 is just what they are. So I wouldn't say they're overrated. Noone is putting them against mid Kages and expecting a win. They are a Kage level force when together but they still are shit compared to any competent opponent


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## Trojan (Feb 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats debatable.The sealing starts working pretty much instantly as Kabuto's control over Nagato was overriden the moment he was stabbed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He trolled Rinnegan Sasuke 2. 



> Against Minato he simply came from underground and then escaped like whack a mole. And Minato was genuinely mad



I bet Madara was madder lol


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## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya is _not_ stealthy.



Jiraiya actually runs a spy network and uses his own ability to slip into and out of places as a benchmark for top security (telling Kakashi _“hopefully *even I* shouldn’t be able to ride in undetected”_). He can enter a person’s shadow, have his clones do the same (and would have been the one who improved Naruto’s Kage-Bunshin usage over the timeskip), has laid Yomi Numa as a trap, uses toads as distractions alongside smoke bombs, can summon a toad that according to the databook can avoid sensors, uses a Katon which according to the databook is intended to catch the target off guard, and can change the battlefield into toad in a way that the databook states is not always so easily noticed depending on the location. At the same time he doesn't always need to maintain line-of-sight himself thanks to Sage Mode and a movement-detecting barrier.

Jiraiya _is_ one of the most stealth-oriented characters, it’s simply that part of the way he takes advantage of that is by using techniques that fill up entire spaces _because that makes them even harder to avoid_.


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## Rocky (Feb 2, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Showed most out of stealth-based move than any other character.



Please do share them, because Jiraiya's fighting style involves summoning toads the size of mansions. Off the top of my head, Minato, Itachi, Kakashi, Tobirama, Kabuto, Mū, and Gengetsu all have abilities better suited towards a hit & run style of fighting, a.k.a. "guerilla tactics."


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## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats debatable.The sealing starts working pretty much instantly as Kabuto's control over Nagato was overriden the moment he was stabbed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



fact is that same character trolled juudara allies or not. and juudara hair follicles are above itachi

sealing nagato who is inifintely inferior to juubito or juudara =/= at all

considering all sealing jutsu in Naruto a world of chakra is based on specifically that chakra. 

would take a lot longer to seal all the bijuu within juubito than it would simple nagato. nice try though


----------



## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

I wouldn't say that Jiraiya's arsenal is stealth-centred, however he does have an arsenal which is suitable for infiltration specifically.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2016)

I would also add that even as a 6 year old Jiraiya developed a technique for the purpose of slipping around unnoticed by others.


Slippery fella.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> I would also add that even as a 6 year old Jiraiya developed a technique for the purpose of slipping around unnoticed by others.



Wasn't it for spying on naked chicas?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2016)

It still counts.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> fact is that same character trolled juudara allies or not. and juudara hair follicles are above itachi



These are all empty words.
Minato got trolled, that invincible aura gone down the drain. Thats my point.




> sealing nagato who is inifintely inferior to juubito or juudara =/= at all
> 
> considering all sealing jutsu in Naruto a world of chakra is based on specifically that chakra.
> 
> would take a lot longer to seal all the bijuu within juubito than it would simple nagato. nice try though



Maybe, maybe not. 
Chances of Itachi doing damage to Juubito is much higher than Minato, whose strongest technique is rasengan.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 2, 2016)

The Rassengan that opened a whole in Obito's back that is 

None of itachi attack will do any damage. He has no SM


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> These are all empty words.
> Minato got trolled, that invincible aura gone down the drain. Thats my point.
> 
> 
> ...



down the drain when faced with juubi jin

itachi never had an invincible aura though 

so how can u say minato is overrated? when he actually managed to get one

and if u think itachi did, his performance against kabuto who is a fly to juubi jins wasn't great


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Which character is most often overrated and which character is overrated to the greatest extent would probably be different.
> 
> But either way just about every character has been overrated, and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.



Are you implying Gai is overrated, Flammey? .

OT: I used to think it was Itachi. But heck, Sound 4 and EMS Madara/Hashirama really does wonders .


----------



## Trojan (Feb 2, 2016)

The only one of the sounds that is extremely overrated is Kimmimaro.
Do people even talk about the rest? lol

(Besides when they try to justify their jutsu when Kabuto used them or itachi failed to deal with them)


----------



## Vice (Feb 2, 2016)

$Kakashi$ said:


> DMS Kakashi is pretty overrated, hitting a distracted Kaguya is impressive, but there's a limit.



Kaguya wasn't distracted. She aimed straight at Kakashi with bone ash and he used Kamui and blitzed.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> down the drain when faced with juubi jin
> 
> itachi never had an invincible aura though



I know. Itachi was more underrated before war arc. He pretty much exceeded everyone's expectations during it mostly because people used his fight against Sasuke to gauge his strength. A fight where he was fatally ill and holding back.




> so how can u say minato is overrated? when he actually managed to get one


How can you say he isn't ?



> and if u think itachi did, his performance against kabuto who is a fly to juubi jins wasn't great



Itachi ended up defeating Kabuto and did all the heavy lifting, while Minato didn't defeat shit and for the most time was pretty insignificant.

Minato didn't look terrible except a few times, but he didn't look good either.
Itachi looked pretty good through out the war arc.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 2, 2016)

Kk Grimm I get where you coming from 

Though you can't call someone overrated if they had an aura of invincibility about that and that gets trumped by 2 characters in the top 5 strongest ever in 700 chapters of manga 

Itachi was significant against Kabuto a fly to a juubi Jin. though so the comparison stinks of childish bias


----------



## Trojan (Feb 2, 2016)

> while Minato didn't defeat shit and for the most time was pretty insignificant.





He did the most  out of all the Hokages.
from the Juubi (saving the world from its TBB), to Obito (saving the world from his 4 TBBs), to madara (taking his Gedu-damas away allowing Gai to smash him) besides the other things 

Heck, some of his feats still make a lot of people asshurt about it...
When was the last time you did not see someone butthurt about this gif for example?


Since he did it till now people do not was to admit that he did this feat, is this because it was not impressive?


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Feb 2, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Which character is most often overrated and which character is overrated to the greatest extent would probably be different.
> 
> But either way just about every character has been overrated, and yet many of the greatest posts in the battledome are ones that, as far as I'm concerned, overrate particular characters.



*Often*
Itachi
Nagato
Minato

*
To The Greatest Extent*
Itachi
The Raikages
Different forms of Kakashi


----------



## Rocky (Feb 2, 2016)

Minato probably did have the best performance out of the Hokage. He did save the alliance twice.

Tobirama was seemingly Minato's biggest fan, and he got his butt kicked by a weaker version of the Madara that kicked Minato's butt.

Hashirama was fighting Madara the entire time, doing largely nothing up until Madara was revived. Then he served as Madara's power source. He's established as the strongest anyway though. 

Hiruzen got one-paneled by Jesusbito and proceeded to regenrate for the entire fight. That alone disqualifies Hiruzen.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Kk Grimm I get where you coming from
> 
> Though you can't call someone overrated if they had an aura of invincibility about that and that gets trumped by 2 characters in the top 5 strongest ever in 700 chapters of manga
> 
> Itachi was significant against Kabuto a fly to a juubi Jin. though so the comparison stinks of childish bias



What I am saying is, before the war arc, Minato was established as the GOAT. And we didn't know his limits because he didn't have much panel time. War Arc did the opposite of hyping him. 

Thats why it surprises me that Minato is still overrated as ever. Like people assume he can just run up to people and smash a rasengan into their face. I find it odd especially considering he never done anything like it.


----------



## $Kakashi$ (Feb 2, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Nothing implied that they were rusty in the movie to be honest.



Naruto didn't even have time to go to his daughter's birthday party in person. 

No way he had enough time to train. 

I'll give you Sasuke though, since he was always on missions.


----------



## LightningForce (Feb 2, 2016)

"Prime Nagato" is overrated as hell. I don't understand what people mean when they claim that* even as a cripple*, he could still keep up with Bee and KCM Naruto.  like wtf? Contradictory statement at its finest. He kept up with no one. He was being controlled by Kabuto all that time, and he was doing things that were clearly outside of his physical capabilities; we've seen "Prime Nagato" before, and he lost his legs to Hanzo. "Prime Nagato" got trashed by a Totsuka blitz, and rightfully so.


----------



## Saru (Feb 2, 2016)

I would have to say I think Nagato is a bit overrated as well. People seem to think characters like Minato, Kakashi, Itachi, etc... Would get destroyed by him, and I don't think that's the case. His shared vision got negated by Itachi. He got blitzed by Totsuka. Even if he could move in the latter scenario--Itachi's sword can move too. Also, what stopped Nagato from using Shinra Tensei? These are all things that make Nagato look bad... Granted, I still think Nagato would probably beat most of the aforementioned characters most of the time, but he's not stomping them.

... And Madara's _clearly_ out of his league.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Feb 2, 2016)

-Nagato. The many Nagato vs. EMS Madara threads made over the years tell you enough.
-Minato.  His fans consistently make excuses for the moments where he under performs.
-Naruto and Sasuke at the Manga's end along with any and all villains they have ever clashed against bar Shin. So Toneri, Momoshiki, Kinshiki, etc.

Oh yes, can't forget how people love to argue about this God Level Gai even though Gai can't even kill Madara after the only offensive jutsu he bothered to use the entire match was stripped from him by outside help.


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 2, 2016)

1. Kamui users - easily one of the most wanked abilities and wanked characters 
2. Minato - self explanatory 
3. Adult Naruto and sasuke - I can't even begin to fathom how much they're wanked 
4. Madara - from his EMS form, to his Juubi Jin form, the guy has always been overrated 
5. Orochimaru - people still think he can hang with people on Itachis level


----------



## Turrin (Feb 2, 2016)

Deidara is the most overrated character, followed by Itachi & Kisame, than Ei, cause Rocky is a thing.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Are you implying Gai is overrated, Flammey? .



Mayhaps.


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 2, 2016)

Damn, Turrin compared Rocky to the whole Itachi fan base  not sure if burn, satire, or compliment.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 2, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> 5. Orochimaru - people still think he can hang with people on Itachis level



Didn't you argue in favor of him against Minato a while ago? 

How strong do you think Itachi is?


----------



## gaaaaaaaara (Feb 2, 2016)

orochimaru is so not underrated lmao


----------



## gaaaaaaaara (Feb 2, 2016)

gaara and itachi are wayyy over rated like if you can break through gaaras sand hes basically dead and way too many people have??? also itachi and his gengutsu can be defeated easily if you have partners with you #boo


----------



## Drake (Feb 2, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> 3. Adult Naruto and sasuke - I can't even begin to fathom how much they're wanked



Their wank may actually be justified, though. They're overpowered as hell.


----------



## Saru (Feb 2, 2016)

A is sometimes overrated, though. Like, he's not the strongest of the Gokage, IMO. Tsunade is probably more overrated than A. 

In terms of strength in battle strength in the Gokage I think it would probably be like:

Onoki
*A
Tsunade*
--
Gaara
Mei

You could make a case for Tsunade being a bigger threat than A, but strength in battle doesn't take into account Tsunade's other niche aside from beating her opponents to death: support. Her abilities are based around her supporting her allies. She was never designed to be a top-tier offensive threat like Jiraiya and Orochimaru are. That's why she loses to people Jiraiya and Orochimaru probably wouldn't lose to, like Kisame.

The Sannin being equal does not mean equal in all facets.





Also, I disagree that Jiraiya isn't stealthy. Jiraiya's potentially stealthy af. What boggles my mind is that people say "guerrilla tactics, gg" to counter anything Jiraiya doesn't have solid answers for.


----------



## Jad (Feb 2, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Do it Jad, i've got your back.



If the thread doesn't get locked by the time I get home.


----------



## LightningForce (Feb 2, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> 1. Kamui users - easily one of the most wanked abilities and wanked characters



Well, Kamui is extremely hax. Literally unbeatable one-on-one without S/T jutsu.



> 3. Adult Naruto and sasuke - I can't even begin to fathom how much they're wanked



You mean one dude who has 100% Kurama + Six Paths Power within him, and another dude who has the Rinnegan + Six Paths Power within him? They deserve their wank considering no one bar God-tiers can match them at their full power.



> 4. Madara - from his EMS form, to his Juubi Jin form, the guy has always been overrated



Madara and Hashirama are above everybody else bar God-tiers. So they can't be overrated unless they fighting against numbers.



> 5. Orochimaru - people still think he can hang with people on Itachis level



To be fair, he's developed a 5 in genjutsu since the third databook, so he might be less vulnerable to genjutsu just like how Deidara also improved. But Totsuka was perfectly made to counter regenerators (Tsunade, ET) like him.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 2, 2016)

Saru said:


> A is sometimes overrated, though. Like, he's not the strongest of the Gokage, IMO. Tsunade is probably more overrated than A.



"Strongest" & "most powerful" became too ambiguous for me to use on a regular basis. Currently, I'm separating power (of chakra) & hax. When doing that, A is undoubtedly the strongest of them, being the only one comparable to a bijū. However, he is the least haxed. 

Power

A
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei
Ōnoki

Hax

Ōnoki
Mei
Gaara
Tsunade
A

I've been back & forth, but I've decided to count Jinton as hax. Even though it has similar characteristics to a nuke, it's a result of three elements mixing together, not Ōnoki's beastly chakra levels. Also, writing it out like that is the first time I'm noticing that it's a complete flip-flop. The power list is the hax list in reverse, and vice versa lol. That on its own demonstrates the balance between the five Kage.

Anyway, if the question is "which Kage is the best," it would depend on the circumstances. If I need to defend an asset, give me Gaara or Tsunade. They have the best abilities for that obvs, and they're still strong enough to dispatch any troublesome fodder. If I need to mow down a large group of enemies quickly & efficiently, give me Ōnoki or Mei. Mei because mist hax blinds & melts everyone in the general vicinity except Mei. Ōnoki 'cause Jinton and canon. 

If I need to deal with high-level enemies (S-Class elites), you better believe I want A. Unless I know those enemies have abilities that other Kage can directly check (ie. if the guy uses fire & only fire, I'd want Mei instead), Raikage is my best bet in combat. Generally speaking, super stats on the level of A are nearly impossible to overcome without comparable power (the Mangekyō's Susanoo) or legendary hax (Minato's Hiraishin & Obito's Kamui).


----------



## Dr. White (Feb 2, 2016)

The only thing thing Ei has comparable to a Bjuu is his chakra level in the same vein as Kisame. Nothing else about him was Bjuu level. He is not his dad.
as for Gokage
Onooki (Jinton, Flight, Huge Golems, clam busting golem fist, Light/Weight technique potential for two other elements since it seems KKT isn't genetic rather mastered.)
(Gaara in desert)
Ei (Speed  Power + Raiton)
Tsunade (Byakugo + Hulk strength)
Mei ( Two KKG, Hidden Mist, and Top Tier Suiton w/out source)
Gourd Gaara
but match conditions can heavily affect matchups within this hierarchy.


----------



## shade0180 (Feb 2, 2016)

Lets be serious here.  

the most overrated is EMS Madara and his PS 

that's literally the only reason most Naruto based forum is still active to this day.. because the bullshit the wankers can come up with what PS is capable of doing even without the support of both the manga and anime

just to name a few bullshit we have seen
EMS Madara PS:
vs Juubi Jin
vs 8th gate
vs Kaguya
vs Moon slash
vs Vote 2 Nardo Avatar
vs Rinne Sauce PS
vs Momoshiki


----------



## Bringer (Feb 2, 2016)

Saru said:


> A is sometimes overrated, though. Like, he's not the strongest of the Gokage, IMO. Tsunade is probably more overrated than A.
> 
> In terms of strength in battle strength in the Gokage I think it would probably be like:
> 
> ...



I would definitely put Onoki at the top, but honestly it all really depends.

I think Onoki can beat Tsunade due to flight, terrain manipulation, and jinton to one shot her. His jinton isn't fast, but he could use doton to create an opening to land jinton on her. If Katsuyu the forbidden one were to come out, I don't think Onoki could defeat the slug... He'd die of exhaustion before erasing all of Katsuyu, but he could just use earth moving core to send Katsuyu 100 meters underground or something. 

On the other end I think Ei could beat Onoki through attrition. Even with terrain manipulation I can't see Onoki ever landing Jinton on Ei. 

Then I see Tsunade beating Ei more times than not. Tsunade can dish out AOE punches that makes speed irrelevant. Hashi said that Tsunade's punch might be weaker than Sakura's, meaning their around the same ballpark. She wouldn't even have to hit him, she could miss by like 30 meters and hit the ground and he'd still be launched in the air.  While he's in the air  speed is pretty much irrelevant, then spear kick him mid air like she did to Susanoo. Plus there's godsuyu who Ei has literally no answers for. However, I still think Ei has a shot... He could just light saber chop Tsunade's head off, seeing how he was strong enough to cut off his own arm, and Ei's durability>>>Tsunade's durability.  

I think Mei is weaker than Ei, but can beat him due to being a bad match up. Hidden mist + boil release is gg Ei. 

Gaara in a desert could sink Ei and Tsunade like he did Kimmi... And Katsuyu too. Crushing and grabbing wouldn't work on strength monsters like them who could probably flex their way out of his hold, so he'd definitely have to sink them. In fact I don't know why Gaara didn't just sink the Five Susanoo's hundreds of meters into the desert ground. However if he isn't in a desert than Tsunade and Ei beat him. I think Onoki beats him in the desert. Mei loses in desert, and has a 50/50 chance outside of desert. 

So yeah, decides Onoki being the top dog, it's hard to list which Gokage is stronger after.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Jad said:


> Resiliency though? If that means the ability to fight with injuries, Gai has that in the bag.





Gai has pain tolerance, definitely. Using the 8th Gate is probably the best feat of that in the story. Resilience is tricky. The Third Raikage is known as "an incredibly tough and resilient man." That's the word most commonly used to describe him in the Viz, but here in the BD we think of him as "durable." A resilient man is one who sustains damage but keeps trudging on. Whether that be because the damage is too minor or the man is a beast who ignores pain, it's resilience. Toss up, I guess. 



Jad said:


> Strength? I still believe he has that in the bag.



Lol? Why, boulder-busting? Tossing B around and shitting all over Jūgo beat that out. If you're talking Gated Gai, I don't know what his strength is supposed to be in those forms tbh. That said, Hirudora is less useful than Judo Chop no Jutsu because Kishimoto is funny with cutting damage like that. 



Jad said:


> Speed? Raikage busts out flicker very few times as it requires massive amounts of chakra he doesn't exactly throw around.



Shunshin is a myth. What you mean is that A doesn't fight at full power all that often. That I disagree with. 


Against Minato, he fought at full strength. 
Against Naruto, he used his full strength when he got serious. 
Against Madara, his full power was useless because it wasn't enough to breach Susanoo, so my theory is that he fought under his full power in order to conserve energy. 
Against Sasuke, you had your typical progressional-fight jobbing (ie. B fighting Taka in base first, Pain fighting Jiraiya with only the Animal Path, Edo Itachi fighting B without MS, etc.), but A amped himself to max power half-way through anyway.

A's speed in Raiton Chakra Mode is above Gai's in every gate until the 8th, which would not have been counted in A's WFM hype because the character (8th Gate Gai) did not exist yet. Granted, the 7th Gate is probably comparable, and I don't think the other guy's speed would be an issue for either of them if they were to fight each other. 



Jad said:


> What do you mean Gai fucks around in base? His instantly opened Gates several times....



It's a result of that progressional-fight jobbing I mentioned earlier. Unfortunately for the viewers, Gai had like three opponents in the entire series (fuck you Kishi). One of those opponent's was Shōten Kisame, a man with no counter to super speed. 

Kishimoto cannot have Gai hoping into gates right away or else it would be anticlimactic. Thus, he had Gai fuck around in base, pretended Gai was in danger of losing, and finally had Gai open a few of those bad boys and beat the ever loving shit out of Kisame with no difficulty whatsoever.  

Super speed was useless against the intangible man, Gai's second opponent, so it was actually smart of him to fuck around in base. Gai's final opponent was  Jesusdara of course, who one-shots base Gai. So, Kishi could just have him jump right into the 7th and eventually 8th Gate for Gai's final dance. 

Because of that stupid IC rule, IC Gai will adopt the mindset he had against Clone Kisame against everybody he doesn't have knowledge on, and he'll fuck around in base. If he has knowledge that he'd get pwned in base, I agree with you that he'd hop right into gates. That's canon. See Gai's final fight.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> She was never designed to be a top-tier offensive threat like Jiraiya and Orochimaru are.



Otherwise has been , .

She was designed to be a peer to them in the context of combat prowess.


----------



## Jad (Feb 3, 2016)

I was talking about Gated Gai when it comes to strength, i just believe his above A completely. Especially after losing to Base Bee in lariat. As for Gai not going gates off the bat. Sure, if it's no knowledge he may very well not,  unless it's a move he can't dodge or defend in base. But if he can see, even without fighting the opponent, that he might not be able to do anything in base, I don't see why he wouldn't hit gates instantly.

For your information though  - He went insta-Gates against Kisame round 2, saving Naruto against Obito, 6 paths Jinchuuriki, most likely Gedomazo, Madara (he and Lee hit 5 Gates with an army), and obviously against Madara (Juubi jinchuuriki edition). Hell, Lee hit 6 Gates to throw a kunai.


----------



## Matty (Feb 3, 2016)

I think Tsunade is vastly underrated man. Her and Gaara are both shit on constantly


----------



## Ersa (Feb 3, 2016)

Hashirama probably.

Used to think it was justified since he was just that strong but now he gets one-shot by base Sasuke and people still place him on Momoshiki's level. What the fuck.


----------



## Zef (Feb 3, 2016)

-3-Eyed JJ Madara 

-DMS Kakashi 

-8th Gate Gai 

In that order.

None of them is top 5 material, but I see people acting like they're top 3.


----------



## Saru (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> "Strongest" & "most powerful" became too ambiguous for me to use on a regular basis. Currently, I'm separating power (of chakra) & hax. When doing that, A is undoubtedly the strongest of them, being the only one comparable to a bijū. However, he is the least haxed.
> 
> Power
> 
> ...




I wouldn't break things up based on hax. Unless that hax has significant hype like Jinton, or doujutsu, or S/T ninjutsu, etc. Otherwise I don't think it's as useful for determining where someone stands. Although clearly you're not using hax as the only factor. I also kinda disagree with A being less hax than the others. And with Onoki being the least powerful. I would probably put Onoki at the top of both categories. But then again, the defintion of powerful is objective.




BringerOfChaos said:


> I would definitely put Onoki at the top, but honestly it all really depends.
> 
> I think Onoki can beat Tsunade due to flight, terrain manipulation, and jinton to one shot her. His jinton isn't fast, but he could use doton to create an opening to land jinton on her. If Katsuyu the forbidden one were to come out, I don't think Onoki could defeat the slug... He'd die of exhaustion before erasing all of Katsuyu, but he could just use earth moving core to send Katsuyu 100 meters underground or something.
> 
> ...




I agree with your analysis for the most part. I always have trouble deciding whether to have A over Tsunade or Tsunade over A, but I have to lean back on the strength argument and say that I think A has the strength to be more effective in most situations. I do like Tsunade's chances against A himself, though. Especially with some distance. But even among the Kage, match ups are a thing. Hence why Kisame can beat Tsunade despite being below her general level (IMO). Or A blitzing most characters (and even some who I see as generally above him, like Jiraiya).




FlamingRain said:


> Otherwise has been , .
> 
> She was designed to be a peer to them in the context of combat prowess.




True, true, she's one of the Sannin; there's no denying that.

What I'm saying is that she lacks the raw offensive power that Jiraiya and Orochimaru have to overwhelm their opponent.

Orohimaru has Edo Tensei (Kage of your choice) + Thousands of snakes + Manda (who was able to take on Katsuyu and Bunta at the same time) + Yamata no Jutsu + Kusanagi which can pierce nearly anything.

Jiraiya has Rasengan, Big Rasengan, Even Bigger Rasengan, Yomi Numa, FCD, his toad army, Gamayu Endan, Senbon, Goemon, Sage Mode strength, etc.

Tsunade has chakra enhanced strength, Katsuyu, Katsuyu's acid................. *cricket*

And that's pretty much it in terms of overwhelming moves and lethality. She's not an offensive powerhouse. Of course she can take on the other Sannin, but that doesn't mean that she's as strong as them offensively.


----------



## copydog123 (Feb 3, 2016)

Obito.

As if this wasn't obvious.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> The only thing thing Ei has comparable to a Bjuu is his chakra level in the same vein as Kisame.



"Chakra levels" are why the tailed beasts are powerful. 

Kisame is a shaky comparison, btw. His power was comparable to a bijū _with his sword._ His sword steals power and transfers it to Kisame. When he stole power from B, he could construct an obnoxiously huge dome of water on wheels that could be seen from miles away.

The dome was as fast as he was, and he was fast enough to outpace v2 B in the water because of the fusion he performed with his blade. He also inherited Samehada's hax, more specifically its ability to syphon chakra through physical contact. Oh, and he could sense chakra.

Btdubs, Kisame without Samehada's help is still more "powerful" (by my definition) than mostly everything in the Narutoverse under the top tier. He made a tidal wave of sharks. He can Kamehameha a shark the size of Hirudora that eats chakra. 

Kisame is pretty damn close to the tailed beasts in chakra power without his hax sword, and with it, he's definitely right there with them. Power tiers (imo) with tailed beasts & humans:

Kaguya
---
The Sage of the Six Paths.
The Jūbi & its hosts.
Naruto & Sasuke (EoS)
Gai (Hachimon Tonkō no Jin)
---
The Kyūbi & its hosts (excluding Jesusruto). 
Hashirama
Madara (EMS)
---
The Tailed Beasts & their hosts (excluding the Kyūbi).
Nagato
Gai (Kyōmon and likely Keimon)
A
Papa A
Kisamehada
Naruto (Sage Mode)
Jiraiya (Sage Mode)

Chakra levels. Straight power. That doesn't factor in hax, so it isn't a combat tier list.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> I also kinda disagree with A being less hax than the others.



I got here and had to stop. What's your definition of hax? We clearly differ there, because in my book A has no hax whatsoever.


----------



## Matty (Feb 3, 2016)

copydog123 said:


> Obito.
> 
> As if this wasn't obvious.



It wasn't. How is he overrated?


----------



## Ersa (Feb 3, 2016)

EMS Sasuke has way more chakra then A, lol.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Nah, he's probably around the not-Kurama bijū. So is A.


----------



## Saru (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I got here and had to stop. What's your definition of hax? We clearly differ there, because in my book A has no hax whatsoever.




For a technique to qualify as hax, it would need to be disproportionately high-benefit and low-cost, have incredible utility (think Bungee Gum), or be incredibly powerful (offensively or defensively).

Jinton fits that description (incredibly powerful).

A's RnY fits that description. It's high-benefit, low cost; it has great defensive utility (excellent defense in the form of evasion) and is reasonably powerful.

Byakugou has incredible utility; high-benefit for moderate cost; time to build the seal. Telomere shortening side effects or whatever aren't relevant because of Tsunade's ancestry.

Gaara and Mei don't even have hax to match up. I guess that's why they're low Kage. 

Even RnY and Byakugou are a stretch on that list.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What I am saying is, before the war arc, Minato was established as the GOAT. And we didn't know his limits because he didn't have much panel time. War Arc did the opposite of hyping him.
> 
> Thats why it surprises me that Minato is still overrated as ever. Like people assume he can just run up to people and smash a rasengan into their face. I find it odd especially considering he never done anything like it.



Anytning like it to juubi Jin 

Do you see many threads about juubi Jin? Considering most characters if not all are shit tier to juubi Jin 

I don't see how that's the opposite of hyping him

Unless u saying if Judara can react so can itachi , and everyone else which would be hilarious at best


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## shade0180 (Feb 3, 2016)

> For a technique to qualify as hax, it would need to be disproportionately high-benefit and low-cost, have incredible utility (think Bungee Gum), or be incredibly powerful (offensively or defensively).



Or totally ignore every possible law of physics. 

Jinton
A RnY
and Tsunade's seal 

those aren't really hax though.. 

Jinton is by most people consider to be hax because it is basically a localize energetic attack that is concentrated to hit at molecular level..

that's basically the only reason why people had a misconception of it being hax.. but it isn't really hax per se... any powerful energetic explosion do the same shit.. Atomic bombs everyone.. it isn't just as localized as jinton.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Furthermore Grimm
War arc emphasised things some didn't believe

Minato can use hirashin through clones 

He can use SM 

Please note plug in minato for KCM naruto and obito would have eaten a rasengan the second he solidified to slap away naruto clone with his fan after he phased through it 

Obito has no way to know he can do that 

I think in war arc kishi went Ape with hirashin , if anything war arc gave minato a better standing


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## Saru (Feb 3, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Or totally ignore every possible law of physics.
> 
> Jinton
> A RnY
> ...




TBH, I think Jinton is less hax than Hiraishin, Amaterasu, Kamui, etc. But in the scope of the manga, it's up there.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

My definition of power would be the volume and quality of chakra inside of a person or their techniques. My definition of hax follows from that. 

Hax: _A technique that possesses an abnormal amount of offensive or defensive utility relative to its power._

Ōnoki is old and past his prime. He doesn't have beastly chakra levels. His experience and hax makes up for it, though. His weight manipulation is obviously hax as it has virtually no chakra cost. Jinton does require bit of juice, but the resulting lightsaber beam is way, _way_ more potent than anything you'd get if you used the same power in a different element, making Jinton hax.

On the flip side, you have somebody like A, who is virtually all power. The strength of the lightning armor is entirely dependant on the level of A's chakra at any given time, so it isn't hax. Outside of that, he's all taijutsu, which I use the actual dictionary definition of power for because it contains no chakra. Hand to hand combat isn't hax lol.

Generally, I think it's pretty simple if you keep the definition in mind. For example, Daikodan is a rather powerful technique, but I classify it as hax. Why? Well, let's assume that Naruto's Rasenshuriken has as much power as Kisame's Daikodan. If those two were to throw their techniques at each other, they _should_ cancel out since the elemental wheel doesn't come into play here. 

However, Daikodan has this hax ability that allows it to eat FRS and increase in size because reasons. It's uses as much chakra (power) as Rasenshuriken does, but it deals with Rasenshuriken effortlessly (abnormal defensive utility) because of its ability to absorb chakra. Thus, it fits the bill for being hax.

Here's a more visual way of looking at it using totally arbitrary numbers (pp = "power points"):

FRS has 75pp
Daikodan has 75pp
Jinton has 50pp

If FRS & Daikodan clash, they should cancel (think Hiruzen vs. Buddha). But instead, Daikodan beats FRS and jumps to 150pp in the process. Daikodan is hax.

If FRS & Jinton clash, FRS should win as it contains more power (Ōnoki can't pump out as much chakra as SM Naruto or Kisame can for their techniques). However, Jinton would disintegrate Rasenshuriken no diff. 

Let's also say that Madara's Susanoo has the durability to tank attacks up to 100pp. It should have no problem with Jinton...but it loses. Abnormal offensive & defensive utility relative to its 50pp. Jinton is hax.

This numbers method can also demonstrate just how hax S/T techniques are.  Minato would need a good deal of chakra to teleport something the size of the Jūbidama, so that might lead somebody to say that his ability isn't hax. That is wrong. Let's say Minato needs 200pp of chakra to teleport a Jūbidama. 

Mega-Hiraishin has 200pp
...but a Super Bijūdama from Venusaur Jūbi would have like 1,000,000,000pp

Hiraishin should lose millions of time over, but it wins, which is why I consider Hiraishin (and Kamui) to be among the most defensively hax techniques in the story.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

The Jūbi wishes it was Venusaur.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> True, true, she's one of the Sannin; there's no denying that.
> 
> What I'm saying is that she lacks the raw offensive power that Jiraiya and Orochimaru have to overwhelm their opponent.



Okay...I know what _you're_ saying, what _I'm_ saying is that it's been suggested otherwise.

_"Tsunade is the *strongest* Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru"_- i.e. Tsunade's strength is identical to Jiraiya and Orochimaru's. The second half of the statement is a gauge of the first half. _"She's the strongest kunoichi; to clarify, she's *this* strong of a kunoichi."_


I don't actually agree with the rest of what you said either, by the way. _I'm_ actually satisfied with Tsunade's known skills to the point that I don't see an issue with rating her as a peer to the other two Sannin as a combatant, even while being a larger Jiraiya fan than Tsunade fan.

Though I don't particularly care to bother going through that.

Testimonials, general presence, and such like are simpler to go over in the sort of manga _Naruto_ is imo.


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## Saru (Feb 3, 2016)

Venusaur Juubi is a new fan-term now.



Rocky said:


> On the flip side, you have somebody like A, who is virtually all power. The strength of the lightning armor is entirely dependant on the level of A's chakra at any given time, so it isn't hax. Outside of that, he's all taijutsu, which I use the actual dictionary definition of power for because it contains no chakra. Hand to hand combat isn't hax lol.




I see. That makes more sense if you define power as one's quantity of chakra. I would probably define power in a much more literal sense and define what you define as power as stamina.




> Jinton has 50pp




What if I use a PP Up? 



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Okay...I know what you're saying, what I'm saying is that it's been suggested otherwise.
> 
> "Tsunade is the strongest Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru"- i.e. Tsunade's strength is identical to Jiraiya and Orochimaru's. The second half of the statement is a gauge of the first half. "She's the strongest kunoichi; to clarify, she's this strong of a kunoichi."
> 
> ...




Strong is about as generic a statement as you can get. I mean, I get that they're roughly equal, but match ups are still a thing--there are characters that can beat Gai that can't beat Kakashi and vice-versa, for example. "Match for = can match up against."  That interpretation makes more sense based on what we've seen IMO.  I'm not saying that she's not in the same league as them, just that her offensive skillset is inferior, which I think is true by feats alone. Hype alone doesn't usually win matches in the NBD, at least.


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## Duhul10 (Feb 3, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Okay...I know what _you're_ saying, what _I'm_ saying is that it's been suggested otherwise.
> 
> _"Tsunade is the *strongest* Kunoichi in Konoha history, every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru"_- i.e. Tsunade's strength is identical to Jiraiya and Orochimaru's. The second half of the statement is a gauge of the first half. _"She's the strongest kunoichi; to clarify, she's *this* strong of a kunoichi."_
> 
> ...



While I agree that they are on The same tier as ninjas, you can't deny The fact that Jiraiya simply threatened Tsunade and told her he would kill her and she got really scared and started to deny everything. The day after, Jiraiya Said it to himself as well, that he might actually have to kill Tsunade, Even though he knew about her overwhelming phisycal prowess


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## Ersa (Feb 3, 2016)

If the Sannin are equal, then SM Jiraiya is weaker then Base Itachi.

I'm absolutely cool with that.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> I get that they're roughly equal, but match ups are still a thing. Hype alone doesn't win matches in the NBD, at least.



It's like you're admitting _A_, then trying to say _not A_ at the same time.

I don't argue that Tsunade wins matches on hype alone in the BD anyway.

Or Jiraiya.

Or Orochimaru.


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## TobiramaSS (Feb 3, 2016)

Lord Itachi - His fanboys are like the cancer of NF.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> While I agree that they are on The same tier as ninjas, you can't deny The fact that Jiraiya simply threatened Tsunade and told her he would kill her



Then Tsunade threatened Orochimaru, who hid behind Kabuto, despite having no issue leaping straight into a fight with Jiraiya, who seemingly would have opted to take out Tsunade first.

I don't need to deny it. It looks like what goes around comes around.



> and she got really scared



Er...when?


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Yes they were like every clone is . However minato can instantly get to them . So naruto 2 prung attack would have worked if minato tried the same thing 

Clone runs at obito , he phases through and swats it . The instant he touches it , he eats a rasengan as minato can wrap to his clone if he has marked it or if it's carrying a Kunai 

His SM was better than jiraiya though . He didn't need support to achieve said mode 


Top tiers you call God tiers top tiers ? Really . 

Tobirama looked better for one simple reason he marked juubito . Minato mark was magically removed . Tobirama could do fuck all without marking juubito . 

Hirashin hype is minato hype by proxy

Grimm obito said his shushin speed was impressive enough to stay true to his monicker


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## Duhul10 (Feb 3, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Then Tsunade threatened Orochimaru, who hid behind Kabuto, despite having no issue leaping straight into a fight with Jiraiya, who seemingly would have opted to take out Tsunade first.



Oro ran from cqc against Tsunade , though against a handicapped Jiraiya cqc was way easier.
Of course Jiraiya would have opted for Tsunade first as he can take her out faster and easier if you ask me.

So you have it this way:

Jiraiya threatens Tsunade... She is afraid of him
Tsunade threatens Oro... Oro is afraid of her ( at least it seemed like it )
Then Jiraiya clearly stated only he can take Orochimaru for like two times with the latter being next to him. He said nothing.

hmmm... who should be the victor in the threatening category ?


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## Bringer (Feb 3, 2016)

*@Duhul*

Can we have a scan when Tsunade was "afraid" of Jiraiya?


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## Duhul10 (Feb 3, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Duhul*
> 
> Can we have a scan when Tsunade was "afraid" of Jiraiya?



Fucked up Juubidara

That '' It has nothing to do with me '' shows her fear. Plus you have the sweat effect. She denies for her own sake after Jiraiya threatens her with death.
Plus there is no: '' Let me see you do that '' or '' We shall see '' or shit like that. Guess you understood my point.

Then, Jiraiya states he might actually have to kill Tsunade and the way he said it made it look that they are not that close actually. He was probably thinking about involving sm too .


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## Senjuclan (Feb 3, 2016)

Gai has overtaken Itachi as the most overrated character. Top 3 most overrated for me are:

*1. Gai:* people forget that 8 gates means death and seventh gate won't cut against most top level. He is not a sensor, so it is easy to blind him to counter his speed even in the 8th gate (Gengetsu, Hashirama, Zabuza, etc.)

*2. Itachi:* Do I even have to explain this one?

*3. Ei*: Sure he is fast, super fast even but unless he goes V2 from the get go, even Juugo can block him. Furthermore, his speed relies on an elemental jutsu, use fuuton and you can cut it. A lot of the top level ninjas can do this with a feint


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Whether a character is overrated or underrated comes down to poster expectation versus how the character actually performed or was stated capable of performing in the manga. Given this every character gets overrated or underrated in the NBD, but there are certainly characters that are repeatedly overrated or underrated; or at least the  perception is that they are.

I've never really agreed with the idea that Jiriaya is overrated, because most of the complaints of Jiriaya being "overrated' have to do with his ability to put up a good fight against characters like Itachi and Minato. To me Jiraiya's performance and stated performance matches this though. Jiraiya put up a good fight against Pain, and was stated to be capable of winning w/ more knowledge (which he has against Itachi and Minato). Itachi also directly stated that Jiraiya could at least pull off a draw against him. And Jiriaya commands one of the greatest abilities among high tiers (Sennin Modo). Etc...  Rather it's underrating Jiraiya, to say he doesn't stand a chance of defeating these characters, especially under certain circumstances.

As oppose to this, we can look at a character like Itachi. Itachi is commonly overrated, because he is consistently argued capable of shit like soloing multiple High-Tiers at once or taking on character outside his weight class, despite never actually performing anywhere close to those standards in the Manga (or being stated capable of such). A quick search of the NBD for Itachi threads, immediately shows on such common claim on the first page, Itachi vs all 3 Sannin. Itachi in the actual manage has never defeated 2 High Tiers at once, let alone 3 of the stronger High Tiers; and certainly was never stated capable of defeating multiple. 

Deidara and Ei are overrated, because again poster expectation is much higher than their actual performances in the manga. Ei's best performance was fighting Beginner MS-Sasuke to a draw and Deidara's best stated performance would have been forcing Hebi-Sasuke to use Kirin to beat him (if Raiton didn't hard counter him). But again if we simply search Deidara or Ei in NBD, we will see many threads pitting them against opponents much stronger than Hebi-Sasuke or Beginner-MS Sasuke. Kisame is slightly trickier case, as he actually does have accomplishments that reflect his overrated status, but the problem is said accomplishments are only after he absorbed tons of chakra, and people ignore this.

Most of the time overrating characters happens due to overrating their Jutsu or feats. The prime example of this being MS Techs, which people often cite as being able to One-Shot High Tiers w/ ease despite never accomplishing anything even remotely close to that in the manga. For example Kakashi is overrated due to poster expectation far exceeding what Kamui actually accomplished in the manga. 

-------
As far as underrating goes. The main characters that are the ones that lack feats or a large portion of their feats are not 1v1 combat centric. This is due to how the NBD is set up to primarily discuss character's abilities in a 1v1 combat setting. So a-lot of times poster expectations of a character like this are much lower than how they actually perform in the manga.

For example many posters place Tsunade as one of the weakest high-tiers, but in the actual mange she actually performs as one of the best. Managing to save an entire Village from CST and the Gokage from Madara. 

Another issue is characters that lack feats are often underrated, this is usually due to characters ether not having a chance to fight many battles, or only fighting battles when otherwise under special circumstance. For example someone like Konan, who never got a full battle under neutral conditions. Or Prime-Hiruzen as we never saw Hiruzen fight un effected by age.

Certain characters fall under both cross-sections, like Chiyo. Not only does a large part of her style focus on support, but we only saw her fight when she was super Old; so she is honestly probably one of thee most underrated characters in the verse. Like wise I'd say Shizune is also super underrated, as she primarily focus on support and didn't have hardly any screen time to accumulate feats.

-----

So to me the most overrated characters are ones w/ Jutsu/Abilities Which Posters believe should perform better than they actually do, have a-lot of screen time, and/or are geared for 1v1; Itachi, Kakashi, Ei, Deidara, etc...

Underrated characters are ones geared towards Team Battles, Support, and Mission type settings and/or don't have a-lot of screen time to accumulate feats; Tsunade, Konan, Chiyo, Shizune, etc...


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok, so what do people base that on?



They're probably just power scaling from other characters with less hype, like Hebi Sasuke or Kakashi. Personally, I wouldn't find it all that odd if Minato ran up to slower Kage like Hiruzen or Hidan, slipped through their guard, and slammed a Rasengan into their face.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> They're probably just power scaling from other characters with less hype, like Hebi Sasuke or Kakashi. Personally, I wouldn't find it all that odd if Minato ran up to slower Kage like Hiruzen or Hidan, slipped through their guard, and slammed a Rasengan into their face.



I highly doubt it. 

Kakashi's base speed shouldn't be much lower than Minato with 3 tomoe taken into account and yet Hidan matched him just fine. 

Hiruzen has tier 5 taijutsu and he was able to partialy defend against Juubito, arguably a faster character than Minato with a faster attack.

I can buy into Minato overwhelming them with consecutive shots or distractions but his skillset outside Hirashin is too limited to be able to do that.


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## Dr. White (Feb 3, 2016)

If that were the case Shisui would have been top tier. Shushin + slip through guard into eye contact = GG. Having a beast shushin clearly makes you dangerous but not to the extent that you are just blitzing kage level ninja reactions with the slightest of ease.

Not that I don't think Minato can't do that to Hiruzen though


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Deidara and Ei are overrated, because again poster expectation is much higher than their actual performances in the manga. Ei's best performance was fighting Beginner MS-Sasuke to a draw and Deidara's best stated performance would have been forcing Hebi-Sasuke to use Kirin to beat him.



I find it comical that you're only looking at outcome. Under that logic, Jiraiya's best performance is getting mid diffed by jobbing Pain.



Turrin said:


> Most of the time overrating characters happens due to overrating their Jutsu or feats. The prime example of this being MS Techs, which people often cite as being able to One-Shot High Tiers w/ ease despite never accomplishing anything even remotely close to that in the manga.





Not only is that troll logic, it's flat out incorrect. Tsukuyomi destroyed Kakashi, and Itachi dealt with both Orochimaru & Deidara with his regular Sharingan. Itachi one-paneled Orochimaru yet again with Susanoo later on. 

Regardless, who gives a flying fuck about the number of high tiers that got paneled by the Mangekyō? How many high tiers have been paneled by Gamarinshō? Jinton? _Bijūdama?_ Zero, zero, annnnnd zero. You going to argue they can't one-shot anything?


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Whether a character is overrated or underrated comes down to poster expectation versus how the character actually performed or was stated capable of performing in the manga. Given this every character gets overrated or underrated in the NBD, but there are certainly characters that are repeatedly overrated or underrated; or at least the  perception is that they are.
> 
> I've never really agreed with the idea that Jiriaya is overrated, because most of the complaints of Jiriaya being "overrated' have to do with his ability to put up a good fight against characters like Itachi and Minato. To me Jiraiya's performance and stated performance matches this though. Jiraiya put up a good fight against Pain, and was stated to be capable of winning w/ more knowledge (which he has against Itachi and Minato). Itachi also directly stated that Jiraiya could at least pull off a draw against him. And Jiriaya commands one of the greatest abilities among high tiers (Sennin Modo). Etc...  Rather it's underrating Jiraiya, to say he doesn't stand a chance of defeating these characters, especially under certain circumstances.
> 
> ...



This from someone who made a thread about FCD being a 1 shotter despite it never been implied as such , shown as such or hyped as such in the manga 

The hypocrisy is too real , it ain't funny


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> This from someone who made a thread about FCD being a 1 shotter despite it never been implied as such , shown as such or hyped as such in the manga
> 
> The hypocrisy is too real , it ain't funny


Apparently the fact that that FCD thread was a critique on the very subject of expectations versus actual performance in the NBD, completely escaped you.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I can buy into Minato overwhelming them with consecutive shots or distractions but his skillset outside Hirashin is too limited to be able to do that.



Let me ask you this: How do you see Mei responding to a Minato blitz? Hiruzen? Hidan? Minato's just running at them with a Kunai. Do you think they dodge him? Do you think they block him? Do you think they weave seals and blast him in the face with ninjutsu? Personally, I would go with option #2. What about you?


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## Dr. White (Feb 3, 2016)

They'd do about as well as they would vs Itachi with a kunai, and Base Gai with nunchucks.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Apparently the fact that that FCD thread was a critique on the very subject of expectations versus actual performance in the NBD, completely escaped you.



Back peddling you are 

You overrated a technique from a character you like 

Horribly so . And I pointed it out


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I find it comical that you're only looking at outcome. Under that logic, Jiraiya's best performance is getting mid diffed by jobbing Pain.


I said performances and stated performances. Jiriaya put up a good fight against Pain under difficult circumstance; and could have won under better circumstances. Jiraiya was also stated capable of drawing w/ Itachi and having a chance at defeating the other Sannin. Therefore I believe Jiraiya can win or loose against upper high tiers based on circumstance and is an upper high tier himself. I think that's fair.



> Not only is that troll logic, it's flat out incorrect. Tsukuyomi destroyed Kakashi, and Itachi dealt with both Orochimaru & Deidara with his regular Sharingan. Itachi one-paneled Orochimaru yet again with Susanoo later on.


First off I didn't mean all MS-Techs, just in general most are overrated. Anyway, if you think Part I-Kakashi is high tier alongside Kages and shit, we have bigger problems. Like wise I'd say the same thing about Flashback-Deidara (Current Deidara directly countered 3T Gen). 

Orochimaru wouldn't have lost to just 3T Gen, he would have needed to be sealed by the Totsuka Sword or Izanami Loop, due to his tenacity. 



> Regardless, who gives a flying fuck about the number of high tiers that got paneled by the Mangekyō? How many high tiers have been paneled by Gamarinshō? Jinton? Bijūdama? Zero, zero, annnnnd zero. You going to argue they can't one-shot anything?


I consider 3 Pain Realms High-Tier, so Gamarinsho did one-shot them.

TBB one-shotted the entire alliance HQ, and i'd consider the sum total of Shinobi there equal to a at least a High Tier. Jinton 1 shot 25 Madara clones, which I'd consider equal to at least a high tier.

In both case it was done by forces way stronger than a single High tier though; Juubi and Onoki Boosted by Tsunade.

So in general I don't find it likely that 1 High Tier is going to 1 Shot another High Tier, usually one-shots only happen in the manga when there is a huge gap in strength or, when there are special conditions on a specific Jutsu. For example the Jutsu being a massive double edged sword technique like Gates, Shiki Fuujin, Semi Perfect Susano'o (w/ MS), or require steep conditions to activate, like Gamamrinsho's prep.

PS- Troll logic, is hey this Jutsu has never successfully one-shoted a high tier, but i'm going to assume it one-shots every high tier, that it didn't go up against


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Back peddling you are
> 
> You overrated a technique from a character you like
> 
> Horribly so . And I pointed it out



From like My second or third post in that thread: 
"I mean ultimately I agree it's not very likely to happen IC in the manga at least from what we've seen so far, but nether are like all these other One-Shot claims. So if people are going to disregard that shit when it comes to Kamui, Amaterasu, etc... it seems like a double standard to disregard that when it comes to FCD."

But Meh, it's back to my ignore list w/ you anyway, so whatever.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> From like My second or third post in that thread:
> "I mean ultimately I agree it's not very likely to happen IC in the manga at least from what we've seen so far, but nether are like all these other One-Shot claims. So if people are going to disregard that shit when it comes to Kamui, Amaterasu, etc... it seems like a double standard to disregard that when it comes to FCD."
> 
> But Meh, it's back to my ignore list w/ you anyway, so whatever.



Butt hurt is butt hurt you hypocritical child


----------



## Trojan (Feb 3, 2016)

Madara only survived because he is an ET tho. Otherwise, he lost half of his body. Had it not been for ET, he would have been killed right there.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Let me ask you this: How do you see Mei responding to a Minato blitz? Hiruzen? Hidan? Minato's just running at them with a Kunai. Do you think they dodge him? Do you think they block him? Do you think they weave seals and blast him in the face with ninjutsu? Personally, I would go with option #2. What about you?



Depending on the distance, they'd either use a jutsu that they would normally use to stop any charging foe, or if its closer then they'd either attempt to block or dodge.

But again, grandpa Hiruzen partially dodged a charging attack from Juubito, I don't find Minato's odds of straight up blitzing any kage level very likely, even if they are at the bottom of the barrel like Mei or Hiruzen.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But again, grandpa Hiruzen partially dodged a charging attack from Juubito, I don't find Minato's odds of straight up blitzing any kage level very likely, even if they are at the bottom of the barrel like Mei or Hiruzen.



It wouldn't be a blitz, though. 


If Mei was facing Asuma at a shortish distance, and Asuma charged her, she'd be all like _"Suiton will repel him"_ in her head, then she'd weave seals, then she'd blast him away. 


If Mei was facing Minato at a shortish distance, and Minato charged her, she'd be all like _"Fast! No time for seals"_ in her head, then she'd prepare to block his attack.


If Mei was facing v2 Raikage at a shortish distance, and Raikage charged her, she'd be all like _"WHAT TH–"_ in her head, then she'd get punched in the face.

The first instance is Mei comfortably reacting to Asuma. He's quick, but not quick enough to stop here seals with raw speed. The second instance is Mei reacting to Minato, but he's fast enough to interrupt her seals and make her block him. A rather large problem arises when she goes to do that, though, because Minato can activate Rasengan instantly on the fly, and Rasengan cannot be blocked. 

This isn't so much as "Minato2fast2furious" as his speed working well with his personal jutsu Rasengan, a handheld mini-nuke that requires no seals. Maybe I can use an analogy. Say Joe & Bob are fighting. Joe goes to throw a strike and Bob goes to block it, but suddenly, Wolverine claws pop out of Joe's knuckles at the last second. How fucked do you think Bob is?

Anyway, the third & final instance is my definition of a blitz. Mei wasn't fast enough to react to Raikage at all. By the time she got over her surprise of A's speed, he had already closed the distance and ripped her head off. I do not think Minato is fast enough to do this to any high tier without Hiraishin.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Depending on the distance, they'd either use a jutsu that they would normally use to stop any charging foe, or if its closer then they'd either attempt to block or dodge.
> 
> But again, grandpa Hiruzen partially dodged a charging attack from Juubito, I don't find Minato's odds of straight up blitzing any kage level very likely, even if they are at the bottom of the barrel like Mei or Hiruzen.



How about itachi odds of blitzing those rocky mentioned despite him having less speed feats ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> Oro ran from cqc against Tsunade , though against a handicapped Jiraiya cqc was way easier.
> Of course Jiraiya would have opted for Tsunade first as he can take her out faster and easier if you ask me.
> 
> So you have it this way:
> ...



The entire point of Tsunade slipping Jiraiya that powder was so that she could take him on in order to use him to prepare Edo Tensei.

Jiraiya said only he could take on Orochimaru because Orochimaru was one of the Sannin like himself. Tsunade was out of that particular consideration due to Kabuto's blood landing on her and freaking her, and to be fair the Kabuto that had just fought Tsunade also expressed that he would've liked to fight Jiraiya when they saw that Tsunade did something to him.

Jiraiya was less wary of Tsunade, Tsunade was less wary of Orochimaru, and Orochimaru was less wary of Tsunade, but if they thought they had to Jiraiya would still fight Orochimaru, Tsunade would still fight Jiraiya, and Orochimaru would still fight Tsunade.

So...they would tie.

This _"are the only ones who can fight against the Sannin the Sannin themselves"_ thing is there because they're designed to be peers to each other in combat.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> For example when you argue Ei Lol Max Speed Blitz's someone's head off, it's not because of conditions. Because even if the match is at Long-Range w/ no knowledge, you'll still argue Ei Flash Blitz's across that distance w/ his max speed and Karate Chop's X's head off, I.E. it's you ignoring the IC rule.



No lie I laughed.  

I'm gonna try something. 

I don't think A would insta-blitz a character from a hundred meters out lol. But if there wasn't any knowledge, then the fight would probably begin with a close quarters/taijutsu exchange _like most fights in the story._ Like, even the aerial bomber Deidara came down to the ground to fuck around with Sasuke first. 

Actually, I think _every_ fight in the story has involved a close combat exchange or five at some point. So even if there was full knowledge and somebody knew about A's speed, chances are A would be able to get the fight back into close combat where he can speed-blitz, _especially_ since he's so hard to kill with his speed, resilience, durability, stamina, and lightning armor.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't think A would insta-blitz a character from a hundred meters out lol.


You've certainly suggested such in the past. 



> But if there wasn't any knowledge, then the fight would probably begin with a close quarters/taijutsu exchange _like most fights in the story._


It's really impossible to comment on the likelihood of this w/o an exact scenario and knowing who Ei's up against. But if your making a broad sweeping statement that no matter the starting distance, location, and opponent, the person Ei's up against will always casually stroll over to Ei and enter CQC, than no that isn't happening.



> Like, even the aerial bomber Deidara came down to the ground to fuck around with Sasuke first.


Deidara is a moron, so let's not even go there.



> Actually, I think every fight in the story has involved a close combat exchange or five at some point. So even if there was full knowledge and somebody knew about A's speed, chances are A would be able to get the fight back into close combat where he can speed-blitz, .


I would agree that most fights will involve CQC at some point, and thus Ei will have a chance to shine there. However I think that by the time that does occur most Shinobi will have some counter measures in place to survive CQC w/ Ei. 



> especially since he's so hard to kill with his speed, resilience, durability, stamina, and lightning armor


To me he's really not that hard to kill. His durability isn't that great relative to most high-tiers triumph cards, and speed only goes so far when most high tiers have massive AOE or Hax that prevents speed alone being a viable defense.

As i've said many times before, to me Ei's problem is that he's too limited off a fighter, and therefore while he can be very effective in 1v1 matches the start at short w/ clear LOS, against high tiers. I feel like he looses to most High Tiers, if the match is at Mid/Long, More complicated terrain, a team battle (of course this depends on teammates a bit, but overall), and is overall the less useful Ninja. Another issue is that Ei isn't even the best at that one thing, as other High Tiers like Minato, Tobirama, KCM-Naruto, and Gai, exceed Ei in speed.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I would agree that most fights will involve CQC at some point, and thus Ei will have a chance to shine there. However I think that by the time that does occur most Shinobi will have some counter measures in place to survive CQC w/ Ei.



I guess we'll just have to disagree, because I don't see most Shinobi possessing the tools to survive close combat with A. Most shinobi lack _both_ the reflexes of Sasuke, Minato, Naruto, & Madara _and_ their instant defenses like Susanoo and Hirashin. Even Sage Jūgo, a CQC-focused character, got raped by Raikage.



Turrin said:


> To me he's really not that hard to kill. His durability isn't that great relative to most high-tiers triumph cards, and speed only goes so far when most high tiers have massive AOE or Hax that prevents speed alone being a viable defense.



Lol, if Raikage is immune to 95% of his opponent's techniques and can dodge the other 5%, he's hard to kill. Kishimoto had him go up against a plethora of different techniques and be fine. Chidorigatana? Did nothing? Direct Chidori? Scratch. "Unavoidable" Amaterasu? Dodged it. Fifteen-cannon giant laser beam from point blank range? Dodged it. Mabui's shredder technique that rips people to pieces? No-sold in base.

You're kidding yourself if you think Kishi didn't want him to be hard to kill.



Turrin said:


> I feel like he looses to most High Tiers, if the match is at Mid/Long, More complicated terrain



I know what your opinion is. I just don't know where it comes from. It's not like Kishi showed A getting rolled at mid/long ranges before he could get back to CQC. When he fought in a "more complicated terrain" (forest), Minato still needed Ftg to deal with his speed. Kishi would not have the commander of the allied forces as one of the weakest high tiers.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Feb 3, 2016)

Jiraiya was highly overrated at one time however the fandom has not been as bad the last couple of years. Itachi on the other hand had his fandom/tards doubled/tripled over the years. You still can't have a debate without someone bringing Itachi into the thread


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It wouldn't be a blitz, though.
> 
> 
> If Mei was facing Asuma at a shortish distance, and Asuma charged her, she'd be all like _"Suiton will repel him"_ in her head, then she'd weave seals, then she'd blast him away.
> ...



I am not sure what your point is.
We both agree that Minato isn't straight up blitzing or overwhelming anyone with sheer speed.




Icegaze said:


> How about itachi odds of blitzing those rocky mentioned despite him having less speed feats ?



Itachi's base speed feats are better than Minato because Minato doesn't have any proper speed feats without Hirashin. And in before you whip out some interception feats, don't bother, they are interception feats.

The thing is, Itachi is a quick guy. Quick as in he strings jutsus and actions one after another rapidly. Thats why he can overwhelm certain opponents with his speed. 

With that said, he can't just run up to a kage level and punch them in the face before they can react. Neither can Minato, or anyone who isn't 6-7 gated Gai or A.



Complete_Ownage said:


> Jiraiya was highly overrated at one time however the fandom has not been as bad the last couple of years. Itachi on the other hand had his fandom/tards doubled/tripled over the years. You still can't have a debate without someone bringing Itachi into the thread



I actually don't recall Jiraiya being overrated except by a very few people.

People usually lowball his opponents, and thats mostly Itachi, to bring them down to his level.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 3, 2016)

Most overrated character? Who do you think? Itachi.

To be fair to the wankers he is equal in power to SM Jiraiya but NO MORE.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I count defeating clones and summons, as those are also enemies; it's just that not many clones or summons are packing high-tier power. If you don't that's fine, as it only further strengthens my position that One-Shots are unlikely.
> 
> 
> Here's the difference Rocky people don't point to conditions as to why an unlikely one-shot, would actually occur in that specific NBD battle. People ether A) Argue the One-Shot happens regardless of conditions (in some cases under conditions that are much more difficult to pull of said one-shot, than the conditions of various manga matches, where said one shot didn't happen) or B) by ignoring the IC rule.
> ...


Well Pein's "Secret" allowed him to counter. That does not change the fact Gamarinshō is a one shot technique. Tell me how you think Hashirama would counter, assuming Jiraiya managed to land Gamarinshō on him.


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## Trojan (Feb 3, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Jiraiya was highly overrated at one time however the fandom has not been as bad the last couple of years. Itachi on the other hand had *his fandom/tards doubled/tripled over the years.* You still can't have a debate without someone bringing Itachi into the thread



It's mind boggling. 

Even tho he is not grossly overrated as madara/Hashirama anymore.  
Aside of the obvious troll/jokes his fans say, the most his wankers say is like him soloing the Sannin or the 5 Kages or some rubbish like that, but they
at least stop at that level of wank.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> To be fair to the wankers he is equal in power to SM Jiraiya but NO MORE.



Thanks for your unbiased input, in the name of all wankers.

That was the post we've been waiting for years to settle that debate once and for all.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 3, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Most overrated character? Who do you think? Itachi.
> 
> To be fair to the wankers he is equal in power to SM Jiraiya but NO MORE.



How is that being fair when there is a panel that says Itachi + Kisame < Base Jiraiya (which is believable due to Yomi Numa, Gamaguchi Shibari, Food Cart Destroyer etc)

@Grimjow thats probably THE most biased post i've ever seen. It doesn't settle anything because Kishi's drawings disagree with @Transcendent's fanfictions.


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## Itachі (Feb 3, 2016)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Most overrated character? Who do you think? Itachi.
> 
> To be fair to the wankers he is equal in power to SM Jiraiya but NO MORE.


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## Itachi san88 (Feb 3, 2016)

Itachi san88 said:


> Minato
> 
> 
> Gai 8 gates some times
> ...


I forgot to say Naruto BM/BSM, Sasuke EMS and Nagato


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> [*]If Mei was facing Minato at a shortish distance, and Minato charged her, she'd be all like _"Fast! No time for seals"_ in her head, then she'd prepare to block his attack.



What do you mean by _"shortish"_?


I think that considering the scale of the Suitons Mei was shown using during the fight with Madara, she could probably afford to forgo the hand-signs and still produce one large enough to ward off a straight up blitz.

Raikage could do it anyway because he'd plow through any of her Jutsu (it looks to me like that's how the Mokubunshin overwhelmed her), but Minato isn't Susano'o or Raikage durable.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

@grimm
What speed feats does itachi have ? Getting behind bee ?

How's is that better than intercepting naruto before obito could stab him ??

Am confused

What's weird is you think A can blitz high level characters right yet I have seen you argue minato can't pull that off even with hirashin despite him being faster than A 

Eg : you will say they simply block the Kunai 

Yet if it were that simple minato won't be faster to attack than A which he is


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

Around the distance A started from against Minato. Five to ten meters I guess. And I don't think hand seals work like that. If you need a seal, you can't just forgo the seal and use a lesser version of the jutsu. That doesn't even make sense. The seal is for the nature transformation iirc. She can't use a "less water" water wall. 

If the Yellow Flash were to run at her at his top speed, I do not see a character with virtually no reaction time praise whatsoever cockblocking him with a giant dragon before he gets there. Worst comes to worst, he can see her seals. If he can realize that he isn't going to make it in time, he can just slow down and prepare to circle her as soon as she uses suiton, taking advantage of the water wall obstructing her vision.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> What speed feats does itachi have ? Getting behind bee ?
> 
> How's is that better than intercepting naruto before obito could stab him ??
> ...



Hirashin makes Minato faster than A once it is set. Not before.
Minato is only faster than A when he is moving between marks.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Around the distance A started from against Minato. Five to ten meters I guess. And I don't think hand seals work like that. If you need a seal, you can't just forgo the seal and use a lesser version of the jutsu. That doesn't even make sense. The seal is for the nature transformation iirc. She can't use a "less water" water wall.



Hand-signs help with Chakra production and direction. In Part 1, Tobirama was able to whip out Suitons on-land without requiring nearly as many hand-signs as Kakashi and Zabuza did when they met for the first time. Tsunade went through a sequence of hand-signs in order to heal where Kabuto had cut her intercostal muscles, but for an injury like Naruto's hand she didn't need to go through that.

According to the databook the volume of water produced by Suitons on land is proportionate to the skill of the ninja casting the Jutsu, and Mei's are huge, so I think it's likely that she can use a water technique still sizable enough to put space between herself and another ninja even without hand-signs.


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## Ghoztly (Feb 3, 2016)

Minato easily. The most overrated character. He literally doesn't have shit outside of Hiraishin and some nice sealing jutsu. Oh, and a normal rasengan. He's good, top tier for sure, but the overrating is immense.

Pain is overrated as fuck too, not Nagato but the six paths, way too overrated. They would have got molested by Jiraiya if he had full intel. Hell even Kakashi pain arc would be a threat to Pain on full intel.

Most underrated is Sasori. Lost his match due to a bad matchup, not many people can counter his poison or defend against his style like that. He fought a fellow puppeteer with tons of experience and a good medic ninja. Bad matchup galore. He's right after Kisame on my akatsuki tier list.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hirashin makes Minato faster than A once it is set. Not before.
> Minato is only faster than A when he is moving between marks.



Feel free to prove that 

So A based his entire statement on minato having set marks and not on his ability to actually set them 

You know how dumb that is right

If that were the case then A would have said minato is faster than me so long as he has marks


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Hand-signs help with Chakra production and direction. In Part 1, Tobirama was able to whip out Suitons on-land without requiring nearly as many hand-signs as Kakashi and Zabuza did when they met for the first time. Tsunade went through a sequence of hand-signs in order to heal where Kabuto had cut her intercostal muscles, but for an injury like Naruto's hand she didn't need to go through that.
> 
> According to the databook the volume of water produced by Suitons on land is proportionate to the skill of the ninja casting the Jutsu, and Mei's are huge, so I think it's likely that she can use a water technique still sizable enough to put space between herself and another ninja even without hand-signs.



I'm aware that seals only assist in manipulating the chakra and are not _technically_ necessary...but it isn't as if the ninja can just disregard them to use a watered-down version of a jutsu. If Mei didn't weave the seal for Suiryūdan, she probably won't be able to change the nature of her chakra to water to use for the dragon.

If we speculate, it's _possible_ that she has practiced it and could throw some prototype out there to disrupt Minato, but I'd say she should have done that against Madara's Katon then. I also think Minato could hop out of the way of any attack and go on to flank her unless he's already started to swing before she fires the dragon. But if he got close enough to be swinging at her, his rather sizable Rasengan would probably just tear through this improvised Suiryūdan, and then tear into Mei's cheek, and then explode in her face.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

If Jiraiya can spit Endan while half-merged with a shadow, Mei can probably change the nature type of Chakra she builds without a hand-sign.


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## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

...but like, Jiraiya isn't Mei...? I guess you're arguing that every elite who uses elemental ninjutsu should be able to change their chakra nature with no sign. I can give her the benefit of the doubt with her having an affinity for water, but that doesn't mean she can go on to shape the chakra into a projectile dragon. Signs are kind of important. Like...Orochimaru. It was "no ninjutsu for you," not "weaker ninjutsu for you."


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Feel free to prove that
> 
> So A based his entire statement on minato having set marks and not on his ability to actually set them
> 
> ...



I don't have to prove anything. Thats how Hirashin works. Any sensible person is aware of that. Except you I guess.


----------



## Vice (Feb 3, 2016)

Minato has to physically react to perform Hirashin though. It's not something flipped like a switch and it's activated permanently like the Sharingan.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> ...but like, Jiraiya isn't Mei...?



It was just to show that it's possible to do it without hand-signs. I thought you were implying that a hand-sign was a necessity to switch Chakra natures.

She can use the waterspout instead of the dragon, if need be. Then she would probably have the time to use signs and shape it into a dragon.



> Signs are kind of important. Like...Orochimaru. It was "no ninjutsu for you," not "weaker ninjutsu for you."



He needed hand-signs for techniques he wasn't so skilled in as to use otherwise, like Edo Tensei, but he could still use other Jutsu. Before transferring to a new body he may not have been able to flow Chakra through his arms and hands at all, but going by the Kn4 encounter transferring to a new body alleviated some of the effect Shiki Fūjin was supposed to have, to the point that he could. _Those_ techniques might've been even more impressive if Orochimaru had been able to sift through signs to use them.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't have to prove anything. Thats how Hirashin works. Any sensible person is aware of that. Except you I guess.



 

so A was unable to beat minato at every try because minato was always able to set up marks before A could attack. 

so what u are saying is every fight they had happened like what was shown in canon. A never changed strategies 

i.e let minato be the one to attack 

now if the dumbness of what you are implying were true then minato would be able to attack A a lot slower than A would be able to attack minato

in which case how the fuck is minato stated by A himself to be faster

you are saying A drew that conclusion on something as circumstantial as minato having marked a target 

so let me get this straight once more, 

if A waits for minato to attack you are effectively saying minato attack speed is slower than A's 

so why doesn't A just move from the kunai and well kill minato casually

odd to admit being slower than someone on that basis

but I guess only you can dream up such Bullshit


----------



## Rocky (Feb 3, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> I thought you were implying that a hand-sign was a necessity to switch Chakra natures.



I'm a Raikage fan. 



FlamingRain said:


> She can use the waterspout instead of the dragon, if need be. Then she would probably have the time to use signs and shape it into a dragon.



As I said earlier, this may have been something for her to try against Madara instead of being too slow, but even if we grant her the ability to forgo seals, I don't think it's going to save her from being hit. Minato would just go around the suiton and attack Mei from an advantageous position. If he's already swinging at her _before_ she vomits her jutsu, he just activates Rasengan and continues with his strike, tearing through both the projectile and Mei.


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Maybe am slow but can someone help me please

A tree is 30m away from minato and A 

both have to attack the tree. who hits it first?

my assumption is since A claimed minato is faster he would hit the tree first

grimmjaw impression seems to be he wont. unless that tree is already marked

isn't that too circumstantial for A to claim flat out minato is faster than me?

in that situation he might as well claim bunta is faster than him since bunta summoned from frog land to any battle field would get there quicker than A would to any battle field if he started said race at frog land

seems to circumstantial for it to be the case.


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## Saru (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Maybe am slow but can someone help me please
> 
> A tree is 30m away from minato and A
> 
> ...




Pretty sure Grimm is right; A would hit the tree first.

If Minato could move with Shunshin no Jutsu as fast A did with RnY, there would be no need for him to use Hiraishin to avoid A's punch in the first place. Minato was clearly able to react in plenty enough time considering he threw a kunai in the air above A's head at point blank range. His hand speed seems to be greater than A's movement speed, but I doubt his Body Flicker is. I think from the context of the chapter it's pretty obvious A was referring to Minato's use of Hiraishin to avoid his full speed punch.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

^
What he said.

A would hit the tree first.

If Minato had a mark on the tree. He would get there first, which is essentialy what Hirashin does for him.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> Pretty sure Grimm is right; A would hit the tree first.
> 
> If Minato could move with Shunshin no Jutsu as fast A did with RnY, there would be no need for him to use Hiraishin to avoid A's punch in the first place. Minato was clearly able to react in plenty enough time considering he threw a kunai in the air above A's head at point blank range. His hand speed seems to be greater than A's movement speed, but I doubt his Body Flicker is. I think from the context of the chapter it's pretty obvious A was referring to Minato's use of Hiraishin to avoid his full speed punch.



I am talking about minato being able to throw a kunai close to the tree and attack the tree before A can shunshin there. Therefore making him faster moving from point A to B where the tree is. 

if what u are saying is true and everyone believes that 

I am utterly shocked

as it means minato is simply not faster than A and kishi doesn't know his own manga

I did not claim minato shunshin is quicker and what confuses me about you and grimm is ignoring the fact that any skilled ninja in weapon usage can throw a weapon quicker than they themselves can move from A to B

eg: I can throw a knive quicker than usain bolt can run


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I am talking about minato being able to throw a kunai close to the tree and attack the tree before A can shunshin there. Therefore making him faster moving from point A to B where the tree is.
> 
> if what u are saying is true and everyone believes that
> 
> ...



What you are saying here is, if Minato was to fight himself, like a mirror match, he would actually oneshot himself with a kunai because avoided A's punch by the skin of his teeth and anything faster than A would connect with him.



> eg: I can throw a knive quicker than usain bolt can run



That doesn't fly because the speed at which A can move isn't proportional to the strength of Minato's arm, scaled from Usain bolt and you.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What you are saying here is, if Minato was to fight himself, like a mirror match, he would actually oneshot himself with a kunai because avoided A's punch by the skin of his teeth and anything faster than A would connect with him.
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't fly because the speed at which A can move isn't proportional to the strength of Minato's arm, scaled from Usain bolt and you.



a kunai can be avoided a lot easier than A though. tilt of the neck and the kunai wizzes past you. A however cant just be avoided by titling your neck. hence the difference even if the kunai moves faster 

well I find it foolish for A to make such a statement based on how circumstantial it is for minato to have a mark at a specific location in all situations 

I mean obito can cross distances way way quicker than A can yet A doesn't consider himself slower than obito 

despite obito being able to easily go from 1 village to the other horrendously quicker than A can 

however it doesn't mean at 10m obito will strike an enemy quicker than A can if you get what I mean

I honestly don't think the author would have let A make such a statement for something that circumstantial nor would he have believed minato was so far above if all A has to do is play on the counter

and minato who u think is physically so much slower should get crushed since by your account 

minato ability to get to A is a lot slower than A ability to get to minato

I am going on abit here. but if you were A wont you just slap minato about on the counter?

if so why couldn't A do that at all


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## Icegaze (Feb 3, 2016)

simple explanation

A cheetah can catch a gazelle soley based on the fact that it can run quicker than said gazelle. Considering it runs it down in open ground, hardly any tall grass to use for ambush 

minato cant be considered faster than A if minato lacks the ability to catch A should an unmarked A decide to run. think about it. Considering he never marked A, how on earth did he constantly outpace him. A cant be so stupid that he always attacked minato in the exact same manner as he did in canon 

how can minato be faster, if A can simply turn around and run. or shusnhin out of any battle field with kunai already there. it really doesn't make sense to me


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> a kunai can be avoided a lot easier than A though. tilt of the neck and the kunai wizzes past you. A however cant just be avoided by titling your neck. hence the difference even if the kunai moves faster
> 
> well I find it foolish for A to make such a statement based on how circumstantial it is for minato to have a mark at a specific location in all situations
> 
> ...



There is nothing circumstantial about it. Minato while using Hirashin can move from one point to another instantly. Nothing is faster than that. In other words, Minato has the capability of moving between points alot faster than A can.

A didn't know who Obito was, nor Obito's warping is similar to Hiraishin. Obito's warp is good for traveling but not good to use during combat. If Obito could warp from one point to another instantly like Minato does with hirashin, then it would be his main means of offense to position himself in the battlefield.



Icegaze said:


> simple explanation
> 
> A cheetah can catch a gazelle soley based on the fact that it can run quicker than said gazelle. Considering it runs it down in open ground, hardly any tall grass to use for ambush
> 
> ...



We saw how it played out when they fought each other. Minato teleported out of A's reach and came back in and blindsided him before A could react and reposition himself, gaining the upperhand and proving himself to be faster.

Teleportation >> movement. 

Kunai = movement, thus not the essential part of the speed Hirashin grants Minato.

Its very simple.


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## Saru (Feb 3, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> simple explanation
> 
> A cheetah can catch a gazelle soley based on the fact that it can run quicker than said gazelle. Considering it runs it down in open ground, hardly any tall grass to use for ambush
> 
> ...




Notice how Minato places his kunai before the battle starts always? And kunai can be thrown more than one at a time. And in different directions. If you think about it, it'd still be hard for A to hit Minato if Minato's juggling kunai in the air and has them all over the battlefield. A cannot predict where Minato is gonna go, since the Hiraishin user can warp anywhere 360 degrees around that kunai, and Minato has the reflexes to react to A's fist in face at point blank. So yeah, A would probably keep getting outplayed the way he fights.

*Link Removed*

It's not hard to imagine Minato throwing FTG kunai in more than one direction.


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## Bringer (Feb 3, 2016)

I'm of the personal opinion that when Ei said Minato was faster than him, he didn't mean flying thunder god. Just like when Madara called Tobirama the fastest one from their era, I'm sure Madara meant pure speed and not flying thunder god. 

Who takes into account teleportation when hyping someone's speed? Raikage saw Obito teleport during the Kage summit, who would've called himself the second fastest man in the world since he already saw Obito teleporting. Or Zetsu would be called the fastest in the world because the mayfly technique allows him to travel from location A to location B extremely fucking fast. Don't get me started on summoning jutsu. Teleportation isn't speed. Raikage didn't mean teleportation.


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## Kai (Feb 3, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I'm of the personal opinion that when Ei said Minato was faster than him, he didn't mean flying thunder god. Just like when Madara called Tobirama the fastest one from their era, I'm sure Madara meant pure speed and not flying thunder god.
> 
> Who takes into account teleportation when hyping someone's speed?


Normally one wouldn't, but the manga includes space-time ninjutsu under its terminology for "speed."



Knowing fully well the masked man used space-time ninjutsu greater than his.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 3, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I'm of the personal opinion that when Ei said Minato was faster than him, he didn't mean flying thunder god. Just like when Madara called Tobirama the fastest one from their era, I'm sure Madara meant pure speed and not flying thunder god.
> 
> Who takes into account teleportation when hyping someone's speed? Raikage saw Obito teleport during the Kage summit, who would've called himself the second fastest man in the world since he already saw Obito teleporting. Or Zetsu would be called the fastest in the world because the mayfly technique allows him to travel from location A to location B extremely fucking fast. Don't get me started on summoning jutsu. Teleportation isn't speed. Raikage didn't mean teleportation.



What ? 

Hirashin is main means of mobility for Minato on the battlefield.
He uses it to position himself to attack or defend, it obviously factors in his combat speed. 

Thats like saying when people talk about Gai's taijutsu skill, they don't factor in Gates or some other meaningless shit along those lines.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Who takes into account teleportation when hyping someone's speed?



Kishi.


*Spoiler*: _Databook 2 - Hiraishin no Jutsu_ 




Hiraishin no Jutsu

User(s): Yondaime Hokage
Rank: S
TNG: Ninjutsu
Range: Close, Mid, Far
Type: Supplementary

Description:
"Flight across space and time completed in a flash-like instant!!"
"Swiftness that surpasses Shunshin!"
*Yondaime Hokage's jutsu, the reason for his alias "Yellow Flash"! His high-speed movement over long distances...it is really "space-time movement"*. To activate the jutsu, he needs a "jutsu-shiki" to mark the destination. Yondaime applies a "jutsu-shiki" to weapons such as kunai in advance. It is alsopossible to leave it in a touched area, and when it is engraved on an enemy's body, it becomes a curse seal with a sentence of death!

Picture text:
Top: He saves Kakashi and at the same time leaves a "jutsu-shiki" on the enemy's
leg.
Bottom: *It is not comparable to the movement speed of Shunshin. The principle is similar to that of Kuchiyose.*


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## Bringer (Feb 3, 2016)

Kai said:


> Normally one wouldn't, but the manga includes space-time ninjutsu under its terminology for "speed."
> 
> 
> 
> Knowing fully well the masked man used space-time ninjutsu greater than his.



But that wasn't talking about movement speed. Minato meant who ever connects first when the masked man materializes, so basically whoever strikes first when kamui intangibility is deactivated. So yes, space time goes to jutsu activation/deactivation speed, not movement speed. An example for jutsu activation is Susanoo users. They can activate Susanoo waaay faster than they can move.

edit: 
*@Saru/Flamingrain*

Never saw that databook entry... Okay, I'm wrong. I'll concede. 

I still think Minato's shunshin speed is at least faster than Itachi's though


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## FlamingRain (Feb 3, 2016)

Hiraishin is counted because Minato uses it to get from point A to point B.

Though the way it writes _"his high-speed movement over long distances..."_, reminds me of a point I made about the primary reason Raikage's speed is so respected (distance-crossing/gap-closing).


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## Turrin (Feb 3, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I guess we'll just have to disagree, because I don't see most Shinobi possessing the tools to survive close combat with A. Most shinobi lack _both_ the reflexes of Sasuke, Minato, Naruto, & Madara _and_ their instant defenses like Susanoo and Hirashin. Even Sage Jūgo, a CQC-focused character, got raped by Raikage.


Sage-Jugo only has speed and strength, and then went up against someone in Ei whose superior to him in both those regards, it's therefore not surprising that Juugo couldn't do much against Ei in CQC. However most high-tiers have other skills outside speed and strength that allow them to defend themselves in CQC. Feinting or deception techniques, like Battle-Field Genjutsu, Bushin, Invisibility, LOS Blockers, etc... And the only time an instant defense is necessary is when Ei uses his max speed, otherwise characters like Juugo, Suigetsu, and Sasuke showed the ability to cast Jutsu and react to Ei, before being completely overwhelmed, which let's us know that most high-tiers will get the chance to use Jutsu in CQC before Ei overwhelms them. 

To just quickly go through some high-tiers.


Mei has Demonic Mist and Futton to survive CQC w/ Ei
Gaara, Rasa, and Sasori have Dust, Iron-Sand, and Sand Defenses
Kakashi has Feints via Doton, Bushin, and Genjutsu trickery 
Gai can straight keep up w/ Gates
Kisame has Samehada to troll RNY
Jiraiya has Feints via Doton, Bushin, and LOS Blockers; as well as Hari Jizo for Defense; and Sennin Modo
Sandaime can no sell anything Ei has
Mu has invisibility, Flight, and Feint's Via Division
Gengetsu can no sell anything Ei has w/ Suika no Jutsu and has Mirage for Feints
Orochimaru can no sell anything Ei has
Tsunade will be tough as hell to take down between Byakugo and Katsuya defenses
MS/EMS Sasuke and Itachi have Susano'o
B can keep up w/ V1/V2, Troll w/ Samehada, and largely Tank w/ Hachibi
Minato and Tobirama have Hiraishin
Hiruzen has Enma Cage, Feints via Bushin and Doton (Probably LOS Blockers)
Danzo has Izanagi
Onoki has Feint via Doton, Iwabushin, Flight
Kakuzu has multiple hearts
etc...

No of course some of these strategies won't last for the entire match or for even that long at all, but they don't need to, they just need to enable the Shinobi in question to survive long enough to escape outside of CQC or land their own finisher on Ei or disable Ei's speed. I think most High-Tiers at least have a chance to do that. 



> Lol, if Raikage is immune to 95% of his opponent's techniques and can dodge the other 5%, he's hard to kill. Kishimoto had him go up against a plethora of different techniques and be fine. Chidorigatana? Did nothing? Direct Chidori? Scratch. "Unavoidable" Amaterasu? Dodged it. Fifteen-cannon giant laser beam from point blank range? Dodged it. Mabui's shredder technique that rips people to pieces? No-sold in base.
> 
> You're kidding yourself if you think Kishi didn't want him to be hard to kill.


I'm sorry, but that's just really not that impressive to me. Every High Tier has survived Amaterasu that's gone up against it. And Chidori (which is the best of those other Jutsu) isn't really anywhere near as powerful as most high-tier character's triumph cards. 

Anyway, Ei is hard to kill for most of the Shinobi world, but when were talking high-tiers, almost everyone of them have jutsu that bypass his speed and durability. I'd say Mei is like thee only high tier lacking such a technique (maybe Mifune too, if he's considered a high tier).

Ei's best bet is defeating his enemy early on before they pull their triumph cards, which I don't see happening in the case of most high tiers, outside off special circumstances.



> know what your opinion is. I just don't know where it comes from. It's not like Kishi showed A getting rolled at mid/long ranges before he could get back to CQC. When he fought in a "more complicated terrain" (forest), Minato still needed Ftg to deal with his speed. Kishi would not have the commander of the allied forces as one of the weakest high tiers.


As I said it's not a matter of Ei getting rolled in Mid/Long Ranges or complicated terrain before he gets into CQC, it's that other characters will have time to prepare themselves so they do not get rolled in CQC by Ei; and as long as they can avoid that, pretty much all high tiers dominate Ei in every other Shinobi art, and will likely win the match.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Interesting Grimm and saru seems I was wrong 


I would call myself faster if I could get to an object before you regardless of the situation . Not only in a situation where I have a mark there already 

Would you consider yourself slower than me . When my speed requires prep at location B before the race so to speak starts ?


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Saru said:


> Notice how Minato places his kunai before the battle starts always? And kunai can be thrown more than one at a time. And in different directions. If you think about it, it'd still be hard for A to hit Minato if Minato's juggling kunai in the air and has them all over the battlefield. A cannot predict where Minato is gonna go, since the Hiraishin user can warp anywhere 360 degrees around that kunai, and Minato has the reflexes to react to A's fist in face at point blank. So yeah, A would probably keep getting outplayed the way he fights.
> 
> *Link Removed*
> 
> It's not hard to imagine Minato throwing FTG kunai in more than one direction.



But isn't his ability to place those marks at the location he wants to go quicker than A ability to move from A to B ?

So what you are in effect implying is say minato and A hat to attack an unmarked hebi Sasuke at the start of battle, your claim is A can shushin to hebi before minato can get a mark close to him 

But then doesn't that mean A is faster ? I mean am confused here can't get my head around it. Minato ability to get a mark where he wants must also be taken into account 

Not like every battle field in the manga got marked enemies from the bat or has Kunai everywhere 

Minato was still effectively in canon able to get his marks to all the locations he wanted before A could even move to attack him . I honestly don't think A waited for him as that can't make sense at all to wait for your enemy to do such or do every time u ever met

I guess I must concede though : even a fodder avoided minato throwing a weapon at him . Just remembered . Really weird statement which makes no sense from A


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## Saru (Feb 4, 2016)

I would probably say you're a lousy cheater. 

But Minato can easily throw his FTG kunai everywhere at the start of the battle or in the midst of battle. So A could beat Minato to the tree the first time.... But every time after that, A will lose because Minato rigged the tree. So who's slower depends on the circumstances.

I don't think Minato's kunai move faster than A does. He just gets from point A to B faster because he already has point B marked (usually, since he spreads kunai everywhere). And all of those teleportation markers can stack over time and don't have any limit to them.


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Most high-tiers have other skills outside speed and strength that allow them to defend themselves in CQC [...] The only time an instant defense is necessary is when Ei uses his max speed



Turrin, look at Raikage's goddamn fights:

Vs. High-Tiers

Sasuke, who has flight via Hawk summon, MS genjutsu, and LOS blockers via Katon needed to rely on an instant shield (Susanoo) to survive against v1 A in CQC.
Kisame, who has Bunshin, Suiton, Doton, etc. got decapitated by Double Lariat in CQC before he could finish his seals.
Minato, who has feints via Bunshin & LOS blockers needed greater speed to survive against A in CQC, albeit A was at top speed.
Naruto, who has Bunshin feints for dayz, multiple LOS blockers, and Sage Mode needed B to save his life against v1 A in CQC. Later, Naruto needed greater speed against v2.
Madara, who has like every justu, needed Susanoo to stop A's chop in CQC.

Vs. Low-Tiers

Base A blitzed Zetsu and broke his fucking neck.
V1 A punched a hole in Jūgo and then ragdolled him with Elbow.

Yeah...I have no idea what you're talking about. Raikage has fought way more than most high-tiers in the manga have, and every time he faced somebody they needed an instant shield, greater speed, or they lost. Yet, most high-tiers can defend Raikage's close combat without those abilities... 

Raikage was a WFM. If you don't have comparable speed & strength, you need an instant shield or regeneration lol. And yes, an instant shield is necessary. I included the "v1 & v2" in the list above to show that Raikage didn't need his max speed to overwhelm most people in CQC.



Turrin said:


> They just need to enable the Shinobi in question to survive long enough to escape outside of CQC or land their own finisher on Ei or disable Ei's speed.



Unless the Shinobi has comparable stats or an instant shield so that they can avoid being overwhelmed before they can fight back, then they're kinda screwed in CQC with Raikage.


Dies
*Mei*: Can't keep up & has no instant shield. 
*Kakashi:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield.
*Kisame:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield. 
*Jiraiya:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield. 
*Hiruzen:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield. 
*Danzō:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield. 
*Ōnoki:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield.
*Mū:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield. 
*Kakuzu:* Can't keep up. Instant shield is weak to Raiton. 
*Gaara & Rasa:* Their sand can't keep up. Gaara's instant shield is too weak.   
*Gengetsu*: Can't keep up & has no instant shield. Can regenerate from damage, but Sukia Jutsu is trolled by Raiton. 

Survives
*MS/EMS Sasuke and Itachi:* Have an instant shield. 
*Minato & Tobirama:* Can keep up. 
*Gai:* Can keep up.
*Sandaime:* Has an instant shield, can somewhat keep up.
*B:* Has an instant shield, can somewhat keep up. 
*Sasori:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield, but can regenerate from beatings. 
*Orochimaru:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield, but can regenerate from beatings. 
*Tsunade:* Can't keep up & has no instant shield, but can regenerate from beatings. 

The characters that die...die. Even if they could _somehow_ prevent themselves from being overwhelmed temporarily, that probably won't be able to escape CQC. A was able to keep KCM Naruto & B from getting by him long enough to land plenty of blows, and I highly doubt there are many high-tiers that can escape CQC more easily than they can.

The characters that survive aren't necessarily in the clear either. They still have to go about landing a fatal blow on the incredibly-hard-to-kill Raikage, and they have to do so before he overcomes their own defenses. That said, the ones in the "survive" list are the ones I think have the best shot against A, and I think some of them win comfortably. 



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just really not that impressive to me. Every High Tier has survived Amaterasu that's gone up against it. And Chidori (which is the best of those other Jutsu) isn't really anywhere near as powerful as most high-tier character's triumph cards.



Er, that just means that all the people that have survived Amaterasu are pretty hard to kill too. I hear that Gyūki, Danzō, Jūbi Jins, Jesusruto, and Kaguya are pretty tough characters to put down. 

The only one who isn't that hard to kill is Hebi Sasuke, but he used a move straight from Orochimaru's (who is _really_ hard to kill) repertoire, and Itachi was never trying to kill him anyway. Speaking of Sasuke, I disagree about Chidori. 

Kisame was durable enough to swallow Hirudora, which is easily as powerful as most high-tier trump cards. In addition, Kisame said himself that he would have a hole punched in him if he got hit by a Raiton pencil. Since Chidori > Raiton Pencil, Kisame definitely cannot survive a Chidori to the heart like A did.

So if A is way more durable than a character that can survive Hirudora and still break out of Mokuton restraints (albeit after some rest) _and_ has the speed to avoid "unavoidable" attacks like Amateraus and AoE like Jūgo's lasers, then most high-tiers aren't going to be able to kill him. 



Turrin said:


> As I said it's not a matter of Ei getting rolled in Mid/Long Ranges or complicated terrain before he gets into CQC, it's that other characters will have time to prepare themselves so they do not get rolled in CQC by Ei



Tbh, I cannot think of an example in the story where a large starting distance makes a difference in whether or not a character gets rolled in CQC. Regardless, a character can only prepare themselves if they have detailed knowledge on A. 

If there's knowledge, A can also prepare himself to counter his opponent. Obito could deal with Minato's speed using Kamui, but Minato made a plan to circumvent it. Likewise, Minato could deal with A's speed, so A made a plan to counter Hiraishin.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kisame, who has Bunshin, Suiton, Doton, etc. got decapitated by Double Lariat in CQC before he could finish his seals.


It was Zetsu


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Arguing like Turrin is more amusing than I thought it was going to be. 



Alex Payne said:


> It was Zetsu



With all of Kisame's chakra and abilities.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Saru said:


> I would probably say you're a lousy cheater.
> 
> But Minato can easily throw his FTG kunai everywhere at the start of the battle or in the midst of battle. So A could beat Minato to the tree the first time.... But every time after that, A will lose because Minato rigged the tree. So who's slower depends on the circumstances.
> 
> I don't think Minato's kunai move faster than A does. He just gets from point A to B faster because he already has point B marked (usually, since he spreads kunai everywhere). And all of those teleportation markers can stack over time and don't have any limit to them.



Fair enough 

Grimm, saru my I bow 

So how fast do u think minato first attack is then . Compared to V2 A when the location starts unmarked and he must mark where he is going 

Cuz what I also find is people making it sound like blocking his Kunai is a piece of cake but again if your entire speed is based on Kunai and you are famous for it . Wouldn't everyone just block the Kunai and get on with it ?


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## Veracity (Feb 4, 2016)

Going by that offensive attack latter ; Resengan =Chidori> Raiton pencil> AT.

How strong does that make Tsunades punch


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You don't really believe that was going to kill him, do you.





Naruto's toughness & resilience in KCM is too inconsistent for me to ignore such a blatant indication that Naruto was going to die. Is it _possible_ that everybody there just underestimated Naruto? Sure. Naruto survives, and Raikage proceeds to Guillotine Drop his unconscious body in the face. _Now_ Naruto is dead.


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## Saru (Feb 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Grimm, saru my I bow
> 
> ...




Well his kunai aren't slow. If Minato can move his hands at speeds faster than V2 A, then that means he can probably litter the battlefield with kunai against anyone who's not A with ease. I mean, if he can move his hands that fast, he can probably get a few kunai launched or in the air before A gets to him (like in that .GIF I posted). I would imagine that's what he would do against a faster opponent who already has knowledge of his kunai spread tactics, anyway.

And I doubt that anyone could block or avoid his kunai but characters with huge AoE attacks, extremely quick defenses, or equally fast hand and/or movement speed (the only person that comes to mind besides A is Itachi with shuriken/kunai; B is also fast but he can't deflect FTG kunai with his swords without risking the blitz). Minato's also too fast for people to just worry about blocking kunai. You block the kunai and next thing you know he's behind you throwing more kunai. This would especially be the case if he has kunai around the battlefield like he normally does. It can essentially make it seem like Minato's attacking you from ten different angles all at the same time. So saying that an opponent can simply block Minato's kunai is kind of weak since he can throw them from every which way.

Minato was going to show off his long-ass name tech against Obito, and he probably would've showcased how crazy FTG can really be when the opponent is surrounded by kunai.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

He did litter the battle field with Kunai with extreme ease against A though


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## Saru (Feb 4, 2016)

A had to build up chakra for the Body Flicker. It still doesn't take much time though.


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Naruto's toughness & resilience in KCM is too inconsistent for me to ignore such a blatant indication that Naruto was going to die. Is it _possible_ that everybody there just underestimated Naruto? Sure. Naruto survives, and Raikage proceeds to Guillotine Drop his unconscious body in the face. _Now_ Naruto is dead.



His statement is something and reality is something else tho. 

Han has arguably a stronger taijutsu attack (or at least on the same level)than the Raikage, and he hit Narudo directly to the face
save his life
and the most he got is a little pain.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Saru said:


> A had to build up chakra for the Body Flicker. It still doesn't take much time though.



So A build up of chakra is slower than minato ability to throw a Kunai from A to B

If so why is it that in the first example I gave with the tree you believed A would get there first?

did u assume I started him in V2? Doesn't he have to power up for that ?


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Resengan = Chidori



Piercing Force > Blunt Force. Generally.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> With all of Kisame's chakra and abilities.


It was _Zetsu_. With faked appearance and chakra. He doesn't copy abilities.


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Han has arguably a stronger taijutsu attack (or at least on the same level) than the Raikage



What the fuck? 



A > Han. 

Like, if A is implied to be capable of killing Naruto with a punch, and Han does fuck all to Naruto with a direct Steamnamic Entry kick to the face, then how the _hell_ did you come to the conclusion that Han is on A's level?


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## Saru (Feb 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So A build up of chakra is slower than minato ability to throw a Kunai from A to B
> 
> If so why is it that in the first example I gave with the tree you believed A would get there first?
> 
> did u assume I started him in V2? Doesn't he have to power up for that ?




Yeah, I was assuming A was already charged up for his full speed punch since that's the fastest form of A. Just like in an actual race, when the contestants prepare themselves before bursting forward. The amount of distance between Minato/A and the tree would also be (ambiguously) relevant.


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## fyhb (Feb 4, 2016)

Naruto himself stated that if he took direct Hit/Punch from A V V1  it would be really bad,not to mention if he got few direct hits I mean without Block  and even Tsunade and B were sure that Raikage MAX  could kill Naruto back then,only his sudden miracle speed boost saved him!


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## Trojan (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What the fuck?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Han kicked Narudo and sent him flying WITH B.

A is the one who was sent flying when he was against B. 

I guess.


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Zetsu clones have nothing like that. They copy appearance and chakra type. They can't copy abilities and physical stats.



>can't copy abilities
>can fuse with Samehada

Also, what the heck does "chakra type" mean?



Alex Payne said:


> Copying memories?


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## Alex Payne (Feb 4, 2016)

...Zetsu was present and saw the whole fight. And he switched with Kisame after Waterdome.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 4, 2016)

If he copied abilities Black Zetsu wouldn't have been talking about how smoothly Zetsu managed to pull of the switch in spite of being weak.


That panel doesn't really suggest that Zetsu copies memories when you consider that the substitution was planned, meaning Zetsu could have already been present when Bee threw that pencil and simply not swapped yet.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Saru said:


> Yeah, I was assuming A was already charged up for his full speed punch since that's the fastest form of A. Just like in an actual race, when the contestants prepare themselves before bursting forward. The amount of distance between Minato/A and the tree would also be (ambiguously) relevant.



But why would A be powered up and in V2 but minato won't have a mark already there 

I only brought up that example because the likes of Grimm would claim A blitzes person X . Despite A never starting s match in BD in V2. Unless specified by OP which is quite rare 

But with minato it's person X blocks Kunai or won't get blitz as easily 

Which is why I brought up the minato comparison thing 

Since I believe in and all cases minato should get to an enemy before A does and that's what makes him faster 

If A starts in base and powers up to V2 then shunshin, my claim is he is slower than minato ability to get to his weapon pouch , throw a Kunai and appear at location 

Hence if A can blitz sasori , minato does so with more ease . If sasori can bring up iron sand or react in time to do so against A then he should have less time against minato


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> ...Zetsu was present and saw the whole fight. And he switched with Kisame after Waterdome.



Look at your scan. He swapped places _during_ the battle inside of the water prison, so Zetsu would have needed to copy Kisame's ability to fuse with Samehada. Regardless, you have a Zetsu with Kisame's appearance & chakra levels. Why would he not have Kisame's reflexes & strength too?



FlamingRain said:


> If he copied abilities Black Zetsu wouldn't have been talking about how smoothly Zetsu managed to pull of the switch in spite of being weak.



Hm?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Fair enough
> 
> Cuz what I also find is people making it sound like blocking his Kunai is a piece of cake but again if your entire speed is based on Kunai and you are famous for it . Wouldn't everyone just block the Kunai and get on with it ?



Its not that easy.

Most people would instinctively dodge the kunai in the midst of the battle  : was jobbing
Mid left panel, deva would be dead if it was Minato's kunai.

Or block them  : 

was jobbing

Each of these instances would allow Minato to teleport in his opponents vicinity with a rasengan in his hand.

And like Saru pointed out, Minato can throw a dozen kunai and mark the battlefield, it seems like thats his IC way to start battles.

With that said, if his opponent has knowledge of Hirashin and has means to stay away out of the kunai reach, then Minato isn't dispatching him/her so soon.
There is a reason why Minato and A fought many times on the battlefield and Minato was never able to mark A. Which means he wasn't able to touch A.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its not that easy.
> 
> Most people would instinctively dodge the kunai in the midst of the battle  : was jobbing
> Mid left panel, deva would be dead if it was Minato's kunai.
> ...



I like this post I'll rep you . Quite happy with how you put things . To the point I gotta apologise to you and will try to post in the same manner hence forth 

I agree with the points you made in both instances 

however most can't deflect that many Kunai far enough from themselves . Which is the problem 

I mean imagine someone like deva couldn't even deflect Kunai far enough from himself despite having an extremely OP tech and that was against Kakashi throwing a few 

that's the reason I always found it weird you would claim sasori can use iron sand with his puppet quicker than minato can get a Kunai close to said puppet 

still well done


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## Itachі (Feb 4, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Butt hurt is butt hurt you hypocritical child



turrin's right though, he doesn't actually believe that fcd is a viable one-shot technique. though i disagree with his opinion on amaterasu, kamui and the like.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

Itachі said:


> turrin's right though, he doesn't actually believe that fcd is a viable one-shot technique. though i disagree with his opinion on amaterasu, kamui and the like.



The kid could have said that himself 

Thanks for letting me know though . Think it's the wrong thread however .


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Turrin, look at Raikage's goddamn fights:


Alright let's look at Ei's matches Rocky.

Sasuke vs Ei:  Sasuke still has enough time to cast several techniques, Chidorikatana, Chidori, 3T-Gen, etc... before using Rib-Cage Susano'o to defend. Therefore Sasuke did not need an instant defense, he simply did not use a defensive technique before that point, probably because he knew he had Rib-Cage Susano'o to fall back on. Put literally one of the weakest high tiers like Mei, in Sasuke's shoes and she still has more than enough time to cast Demonic Mist of Futton. And this battle happens at like 3m w/ clear LOS, which is Ei's ideal set up, not what were talking about which is Mid/Long or w/o LOS.

Naruto vs Ei: The battle shouldn't be used as representative of anything, when nether Ei nor Naruto were fighting as they normally would as they were allies and were just playing tag. And again that battle started at like 3m w/ clear LOS.

Madara vs Ei: Mei had time to cast her Youton, before Ei's blitz was complete against Madara. If Mei could cast a Jutsu in that time, than most if not all High Tiers can do the same, and therefore do not need and instant defense. Madara only needed one because he decided to stand their arrogantly w/ his hands crossed. Also this is yet another match that starts at like 5m w/ clear LOS.

Minato vs Ei: Is the only time that an instant defense or high speed would be necessary, but again the match starts at 3m w/ clear LOS, and w/ Ei going max speed form the jump.

---------

All of your examples are of matches that happen at Short w/ Clear LOS. Even than unless Ei goes Max-Speed from the jump most high tiers are probably going to have a chance to cast a technique or 3 before Ei starts to really dominate them. And again I was talking about Mid/Long, Team battle, or w/o clear LOS originally, which none of these examples apply to (except Taka vs kumo, but there  there was plenty of time).



> The characters that die...die. Even if they could somehow prevent themselves from being overwhelmed temporarily, that probably won't be able to escape CQC. A was able to keep KCM Naruto & B from getting by him long enough to land plenty of blows, and I highly doubt there are many high-tiers that can escape CQC more easily than they can.


KCM-Naruto was just playing tag w/ Ei, because they were technically allies. So yeah if someone relies purely on speed they are going to have a tough time escaping CQC w/ Ei, but they aren't going to do so.



> So if A is way more durable than a character that can survive Hirudora and still break out of Mokuton restraints (albeit after some rest) and has the speed to avoid "unavoidable" attacks like Amateraus and AoE like Jūgo's lasers, then most high-tiers aren't going to be able to kill him.


They are different kinds of damage Rocky. Raiton Pencil is piercing damage, while Hirodora is blunt damage, not to mention part of Hirodora's damage was soaked up by Daikodan, and the fact that Gai was never intending to kill in the first place.

Anyway as I said most of the high tiers have triumph cards that can deal w/ Ei


Tsunade's: Super Punch's, Reverse Shosen, Zeshi Nendan, Possible Poison
Orochimaru: Poison
Gaara; Fuuinjutsu
Mu: Jinton
Onoki: Jinton
Itachi: Tsukuyomi, Izanami, Totsuka
Sasuke: Enton, Susano'o
Gengetsu: Repeated Joki Boi Usages
Jiraiya: Senpo Techs, especially Senpo-Fuutons; Frog-Song; Toad Gourd Barrier Seal
Sandaime-Raikage: Hell Bringer
etc....

It's basically only the weaker High-Tiers that could struggle w/ Ei durability. Like Mei's would need to trap Ei in an area he can't escape so Futton could slowly melt him, which would be highly difficult on most battlefields. Hiruzen would need to utilize some very powerful Fuuton combo on Ei, which would be difficult to pull off consistently w/ his chakra reserves; though he has Shiki Fuujin to fall back on for the draw. Deidara would have a tough time due to Raiton weakness. 

But for the most part durability on Ei's level is not an issue for High Tiers. The main issue is Ei's speed, but most of these character have ways to land blows on Ei, as they are more versatile, more intelligent, and/or Ei simply lacks the necessary skills to detect their abilities



> Tbh, I cannot think of an example in the story where a large starting distance makes a difference in whether or not a character gets rolled in CQC. Regardless, a character can only prepare themselves if they have detailed knowledge on A.


Or they have knowledge of RNY. Or they have knowledge of Raikages in General. Or they see hercules and are like probably should prep something. Or they are naturally predisposed to prep something.

As far as examples go, there are plenty of examples. Just to pull one out, right now, the starting distance prevented Mahiro from getting rolled by Kakashi w/ Chidori, in Kakashi Gaiden, as it allowed him to have Bushin on the field before Kakashi started his Chidori attack. The starting distance in FOD, allowed Team Oboro to set up illusions at Long-range, which helped prevent them from being fodder fucked by Team 7 in CQC. And than there are examples where characters avoid it entirely, like Temari who used the starting distance in the Chunin Exam finales to calculate how far Shikkamaru's shadow could reach and than stayed outside that distance while utilizing long range attacks. And so on.



> If there's knowledge, A can also prepare himself to counter his opponent. Obito could deal with Minato's speed using Kamui, but Minato made a plan to circumvent it. Likewise, Minato could deal with A's speed, so A made a plan to counter Hiraishin.


And then the battle comes down to whether Ei's counter strategy would work, not Ei rolling someone in CQC.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Hm?



This is what I was talking about _(1)_.

Though on the page before there's also this _(2)_.

It's not another Kisame.

Zetsu has the ability to attach himself to others already. The point at which he separated from Samehada could have simply been the point at which he separated from Kisame, who was still merged with Samehada at the time, while imitating his appearance.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2016)

In some regards rocky I think A is a lot easier to deal with than most think

For the simple reason that he hardly ever starts out at full speed 

For example : I don't see why the likes of Muu, Gaara or onoki should struggle to beat him 

Even if one is to assume he is going to power up to V2 off the bat it takes him a long enough amount of time for minato to throw 30+ Kunai 

In that time frame , Muu goes invisible , onoki uses a bunch of clones or simply hides underground . Gaara uses enough sand amour to soak the damage if needed

Turrin is oddly enough right . Ay is overrated to shits


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## Rocky (Feb 4, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke still has enough time to cast several techniques



Indeed, and despite him having many varied abilities such as flight, genjutsu, Katon, etc., he was still overwhelmed in CQC and needed to fall back on his taxing instant shield, Susanoo.



Turrin said:


> And this battle happens at like 3m w/ clear LOS, which is Ei's ideal set up, not what were talking about which is Mid/Long or w/o LOS.



Sasuke had plenty of time to increase the distance or set up while A was fighting Jūgo. 



Turrin said:


> KCM-Naruto was just playing tag w/ Ei, because they were technically allies.





Naruto was trying to get past Raikage and go join the war (not playing tag with Raikage ), and despite Naruto having access to Bunshin for distractions & feints, smoke bombs & Rasengan dust clouds to block LOS, toads, etc., he could not escape CQC and was overwhelmed, needing B's assistance. Later, he only got past Raikage because he used Minato-level speeds. 



Turrin said:


> Madara only needed one because he decided to stand their arrogantly w/ his hands crossed.



If you want to say Madara was jobbing against the five Kage and whatever, then I'm okay with that. Raikage's other five fights illustrate my point. 



Turrin said:


> Minato vs Ei: Is the only time that an instant defense or high speed would be necessary, but again the match starts at 3m w/ clear LOS, and w/ Ei going max speed form the jump.



I wouldn't say the match started from 3m. Minato is a sensor and both A & B have huge chakras, so Minato was likely aware of their presence _way_ before he got to within 3m. Actually, same goes for KCM Naruto above. Naruto is a sensor, so he would have sensed Raikage coming before he got to within 3m. 



Turrin said:


> Most of the high tiers have triumph cards that can deal w/ Ei





Turrin said:


> For the most part durability on Ei's level is not an issue for High Tiers. The main issue is Ei's speed, but most of these character have ways to land blows on Ei, as they are more versatile, more intelligent, and/or Ei simply lacks the necessary skills to detect their abilities



Most characters have a technique or two that can actually do something to A, but when he probably has the speed to evade that technique (like the "unavoidable" Amaterasu from point-blank distance) _and_ he's still durable to tank the other 95% of their arsenal, then my _point_ (A being hard to kill) still stands.

I'm not saying that most high-tiers have a 0% chance of ever killing A, or have no chance of _eventually_ creating a plan that could ever work on A ever. I'm saying that they are most likely not going to be able to kill him _before he gets into close quarters combat_, which is where he can overwhelm mostly everyone. 



Turrin said:


> Mahiru [...] Oboro [...] Temari



I said "I cannot think of an example in the story where a large starting distance makes a difference in _*whether or not a character gets rolled in CQC.*_"

Mahiru had a large distance and prep, but Kakashi still got into CQC with him and would have rolled him if Chidori wasn't an incomplete jutsu without the Sharingan. Temari is a pretty good example of Kishi focusing on distance, but even then Shikamaru still got her into his Shadow (and didn't you say Kishi wanted Shika to win the exams?). I need a link for Oboro if that' cool 'cause I can't find the chapter.




FlamingRain said:


> This is what I was talking about _(1)_.
> 
> Though on the page before there's also this _(2)_.



Oh wow, never even knew about those scans. I'll concede that point.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 4, 2016)

Han and Roshi attack Naruto in the face and he is fine
Does anyone honsetly think Raikage can kill KCM Naruto
The guy cant even land hits on bleeding eyes Sasuke for christ sake
His best killing feat is snapping Zetsu's soft gooey neck
Hes not scratching KCM Naruto stop wanking
If it was Tsunade (who is > Raikage) people will say she cant kill KCM Naruto


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## Turrin (Feb 4, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Indeed, and despite him having many varied abilities such as flight, genjutsu, Katon, etc., he was still overwhelmed in CQC and needed to fall back on his taxing instant shield, Susanoo.
> Sasuke had plenty of time to increase the distance or set up while A was fighting Jūgo.


Sasuke didn't take other defensive measures because he could fall back on Susano'o.

Other characters in Sasuke's position would & could have taken other defensive measures.



> I wouldn't say the match started from 3m. Minato is a sensor and both A & B have huge chakras, so Minato was likely aware of their presence way before he got to within 3m. Actually, same goes for KCM Naruto above. Naruto is a sensor, so he would have sensed Raikage coming before he got to within 3m.


In Naruto's case he didn't know Ei was an enemy that would proactively try to stop him to the extent that he did. In Minato's case he obviously did not need to take any other defensive measures, because he had Hiraishin. 



> If you want to say Madara was jobbing against the five Kage and whatever, then I'm okay with that. Raikage's other five fights illustrate my point.


It proactively demonstrates the opposite. Since Mei had time to use a Jutsu, than many High-Tiers will also have time.



> Most characters have a technique or two that can actually do something to A, but when he probably has the speed to evade that technique (like the "unavoidable" Amaterasu from point-blank distance) and he's still durable to tank the other 95% of their arsenal, then my point (A being hard to kill) still stands.
> 
> I'm not saying that most high-tiers have a 0% chance of ever killing A, or have no chance of eventually creating a plan that could ever work on A ever. I'm saying that they are most likely not going to be able to kill him before he gets into close quarters combat, which is where he can overwhelm mostly everyone.


I don't think he has the speed to consistently evade many of these techniques though, especially when he lacks any sensory abilities whatsoever, to deal with feints, ambushes, or attacks from outside his LOS. It's extremely easy for a high-tier to blind-side or trick Ei.



> Mahiru had a large distance and prep, but Kakashi still got into CQC with him and would have rolled him if Chidori wasn't an incomplete jutsu without the Sharingan.


Would have is a coup out on your par and you know it. Mahiro beating Kakashi is fits exactly the definition you asked for.



> . Temari is a pretty good example of Kishi focusing on distance, but even then Shikamaru still got her into his Shadow (and didn't you say Kishi wanted Shika to win the exams?).


By using intelligence and extending the range of his shadow into Mid/Long Range, not through CQC.



> I need a link for Oboro if that' cool 'cause I can't find the chapter.


_Satetsu Shigure_

------

Let me put this another way. Naruto in KCM has access to higher speed than Ei and the physical strength to block Ei's blows. But how much did that really make a difference for KCM-Naruto in the manga? Mu still side stepped his attack easily, and he needed Gaara's assistance to get at Mu (in-fact right there is a good example of Long-Range mattering as well). Against Sandaime-Raikage, his speed and strength didn't do shit, it was SM's timing and strategy that won the match. BZ just tripped his ass w/ a root. Itachi was countering his ass in CQC and so were all the Edo-Jinchuuriki. Literally no high-tier that went up against KCM-Naruto was rolled in CQC due to KCM-Naruto's speed or strength alone.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 6, 2016)

Everyone seems to have different definitions of what is overrated, it seems like some people are confusing "overrated" with "overpowered" if you ask me. An overrated character, is an character who is repeatedly hyped up by the fanbase and said to be capable of doing outright insane and ridiculous things that have no basis, evidence, and sometimes are even disproven by the Manga itself or blown completely out of proportion. For example, the most overrated character in the entire fanbase (based on what I've seen personally) is Itachi. Literally, Itachi has been put up against so many characters (and said to be capable of one-shotting or wrecking) that the Manga has made clear are on a similar or higher level to the point that it is nuts. Just look at the other threads in the Battledome, look at youtube, check the Naruto wiki, it's pretty crazy. I feel like it's self-explanatory. 

So the reason Itachi is overrated is because he is put on a level that he is very clearly not on going based on what the Manga has shown us. Characters such as Hashirama and Madara aren't overrated, they're overpowered, because they actually are on a top-tier level and are the pinnacle of the shinobi world. The only characters above them are Naruto and Sasuke after they got their powerups, and the Ootsutsuki characters who aren't even shinobi anyway. Other than that, they have enough canon material to support the notion that they actually are on an inhuman level. So they would be called overpowered, not overrated, because there is nothing overhyped about them. They're flat-out the strongest shinobi in the series and the only ones to transcend them are Naruto and Sasuke who needed the help of a nigh-godly being to do it.


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## Turrin (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> You didn't understand my point. You need to be at or close to full strength to use your full speed (fastest shunshin). Generally, the lower your energy gets, the slower you can go. If you run too low on chakra, you don't even have the energy to stand, let alone run.
> Clones adopt this principle. The less chakra they have, the weaker they are overall, speed included. This is why the novice Rain children could tag one of the Sannin. The real Jiraiya would have blitz-spanked them like Asuma blitz-spanked those Sound ninja chasing Shikamaru. You also see this in play with Minato & Tobirama's Flying Raijin being too slow with clones, and with Madara sitting on his ass stabbing Hashirama clones no diff.


Rocky I understand how clones work, and the only argument you could possible make here is it costs Naruto more chakra to use the Shunshin he employed against Ei, than each clone had at their disposal. And if it takes that much chakra to use high grade Shunshin's like Ei's and Naruto's, than that just means Ei can't use his Max speed all that much in battle, and only makes me believe Ei is even weaker.

Outside of Shunshin you don't really have an argument, because Naruto's Clones still had enough chakra to use KCM, and therefore should be as fast as at least R1-Raikage, and basically proved as much when KCM-Naruto-Clone kept up w/ Sandaime-Raikage who should be of similar speed to his R1-Son.

So what we end up w/ is still most High-Tiers can handle R1-Ei's Strength/Speed in CQC, and while Max-Speed may be dangerous, Ei can only use it a handful of times due to how chakra intensive it is. Again that makes Ei seem weaker to me, not better.



> Sasuke & Naruto did need to take them. Sasuke nearly got his face flattened by Raikage's heel drop


That wasn't an issue of underestimating Ei's speed, it was an issue of underestimating Ei's willingness to sacrifice literally an arm and leg to defeat him. If Ei was in any other mind-set than bloodlust due to the loss of his brother, that defense would have stopped Ei in his tracks, and allowed Sasuke to survive CQC.



> Naruto would have been killed early on if B hadn't jumped in and blocked A's attack with Hachibi Fist no Jutsu.


Oh please, we literally saw Naruto block Ei's attack just fine immediately prior to that and than ultimately Naruto flash blitz'd past Ei. Your reaching.



> According to you, if Naruto or Sasuke had used a simple smoke bomb, they could have ran past or killed him respectively with like no effort. That just isn't what we've seen.


I said that Blocking Ei's LOS would allow them to land blows on him despite his speed, not allow them to immediately escape him or certainly kill Ei.

So let's play out your smoke bomb scenario.  Naruto drops a smoke bomb and goes to attack Ei, oh wait he can't because Ei is the leader of the Shinobi alliance.

Sasuke drops a smoke bomb (assuming he even carriers them) and goes to attack Ei, oh wait, Ei already showed he can tank Chidori, which is Sasuke's best move outside of Dojutsu techs that require LOS. 

And I never once said dropping a smoke bomb would allow any Shinobi to flee from Ei, that is an absolute straw man on your part.



> He's already dealt with AoE. Raikage was at the epicenter of a rather large energy sphere.


Dude Juugo's AOE there is horrendously small, and has no baring on what i'm talking about. I'm talking about techniques the size of Kisame's 1,000 Sharks, Gaara's Sand Tsunami, Jiraiya's Gama Yu Endan, Ibusei's Poison Gas Cloud, and so on, which all make Juugo's blast look pathetic in scale.



> As for attacks he doesn't sense at all, of course he won't be able to dodge them. That applies to everybody, including chakra sensors. Have you forgotten how Nagato trolled Jiraiya?


In Jiriaya's case it required him believing that his enemy was dead, and highly specialized circumstances. Normally Shinobi w/ extrasensory skills, their own Bushin, etc.. are much more protect than Ei is.



> Thing is, little to no shinobi have attacks that A wouldn't be able to hear coming at the last second (and thus dodge),


Neji and Kimi examples both show, that avoiding attacks through hearing doesn't work so well. So pretty much Ei is rely on sight and that's it. And I'm not saying that there are tons of techniques that can defeat Ei this way, but there are a decent amount among high tiers, and the high tiers that can't beat Ei this way, can likely beat him through the AOE method:


Rasa - Through AOE (Gold Dust Tsunami) and attacks from outside LOS w/ Dust (see Gaara vs Kimi)

Gaara - Same Deal except insert Sand for Dust

Sasori - Same deal, but w/ Satetsu and can trick Ei into thinking he's dead, and only needs a scratch

Hiruzen - Fuutons

Jiraiya - Through AOE (Gama Yu Endan, Drilling Water Bullets, Frog Song, etc...) and attacks outside LOS ( Senpo Techs)

Hanzo - Through AOE (Ibusei's Gas) and Attacks outside LOS (Poison Breath)

Naruto - Similar to Jiraiya

Orochimaru - Attacks outside LOS (Poison)

Tsunade - Okasho Outside LOS

Onoki/Mu - Jinton outside LOS

Gengetsu - Joki Boi Outside LOS (Via Clam Gen)

Kakashi - Kamui outside LOS

Gai- Through AOE (AT and MP)

Itachi - Totsuka

Sasuke - Susano'o Arrows, Later Enton when he becomes more advanced w/ it

Danzo - Fuutons 

Kakuzu - Fuutons


The only high tiers I can think off that may have an issue is Deidara, but that's due to elemental disadvantage countering C4, otherwise that would be perfect.

Ei's best chance is to defeat the enemy before they pull out their big guns


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## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2016)

Minato is the most overrated character, followed by Itachi.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 8, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Everyone seems to have different definitions of what is overrated, it seems like some people are confusing "overrated" with "overpowered" if you ask me. An overrated character, is an character who is repeatedly hyped up by the fanbase and said to be capable of doing outright insane and ridiculous things that have no basis, evidence, and sometimes are even disproven by the Manga itself or blown completely out of proportion. For example, the most overrated character in the entire fanbase (based on what I've seen personally) is Itachi. Literally, Itachi has been put up against so many characters (and said to be capable of one-shotting or wrecking) that the Manga has made clear are on a similar or higher level to the point that it is nuts. Just look at the other threads in the Battledome, look at youtube, check the Naruto wiki, it's pretty crazy. I feel like it's self-explanatory.
> 
> So the reason Itachi is overrated is because he is put on a level that he is very clearly not on going based on what the Manga has shown us. Characters such as Hashirama and Madara aren't overrated, they're overpowered, because they actually are on a top-tier level and are the pinnacle of the shinobi world. The only characters above them are Naruto and Sasuke after they got their powerups, and the Ootsutsuki characters who aren't even shinobi anyway. Other than that, they have enough canon material to support the notion that they actually are on an inhuman level. So they would be called overpowered, not overrated, because there is nothing overhyped about them. They're flat-out the strongest shinobi in the series and the only ones to transcend them are Naruto and Sasuke who needed the help of a nigh-godly being to do it.



This.
And @Turrin, please remind me what LOS stands for.


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## LostSelf (Feb 8, 2016)

Line of sight.


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