# Itachi vs SM Jiraiya



## Matty (May 29, 2016)

Area: Pein vs Jiraiya
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50 Meters
Restrictions: Yata, YN

All are healthy


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## UchihaX28 (May 29, 2016)

This has been done before and Itachi likely wins. I'll only elaborate further if someone call mes out on this.

Reactions: Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Android (May 29, 2016)

Jiraiya wins , high diff 
he has the hype and the feats of being stronger than itachi 
he has more chakra and more stamina 
better physical states , speed , strengh 
better taijutsu and frog kata 
sensing + sensing barrier means clone feints and surprizing attacks won't happen
Audio attack + underworld swamp > susanoo
more elements and ninjutsu for coverage 
more hype , more experience , and the manga already gave us an answer who's stronger 


@Equilibrium139 , i believe this is the right place , let's settle this , i'm waiting

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## hbcaptain (May 29, 2016)

Itachi and SM Jiraya are both the same tier , however Itachi is still one cut above him , MS is just too much , I can't see Jiraya handling Amaterasu as well as Susano'o , an eventual Genjutsu combined with extreme intelligence (even if Jiraya , Fukasaku and Shima are pretty smart too) .

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2016)

This is done to death. Itachi stomps.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 6


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## Android (May 29, 2016)

no one is stomping a shit here , that's pure nonsense , if anything , it's gonna be a high diff win for either

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 2 | Dislike 2


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## KiNGPiN (May 29, 2016)

Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya doesn't have any super potent jutsu which can break through V1 Susano'o. On the other hand, apart from Amaterasu, Itachi doesn't have anything to touch Jiraiya either, as in CQC he gets destroyed by Frog Kata. J-Man's got better stamina and chakra reserves, though, so I'm gonna have to go with the Sage on this one.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sadgoob (May 29, 2016)

Itachi's own physicality (without Susano'o) appeared to be sufficient to counter clashes with KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto and Killer Bee, all of whom are superior to Human Path that countered SM Jiraiya. Jiraiya's just out of his league here, in speed, brains, jutsu, etc. and his lone strength advantage is far from overwhelming (and completely absent when considering Susano'o.)

Jiraiya's only shot is to have full knowledge to prevent genjutsu (Ma & Pa are vulnerable too, and can kill Jiraiya if controlled/tricked) and a large amount of starting distance to prevent being overwhelmed by Susano'o.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 4


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## Icegaze (May 29, 2016)

Boring thread 
Mid diff win for itachi 
Perhaps high diff 
Depends how it plays

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 3


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## Android (May 29, 2016)

KiNGPiN said:


> Jiraiya doesn't any super potent jutsu which can break through V1 Susano'o



Audio genjutsu
frog call
frog song
underworld swamp
cho odama rasengan

Reactions: Like 2


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## StarWanderer (May 29, 2016)

Well, judging from manga statements, made by Kishimoto himself, Jiraya > Itachi. Judging from feats, it's quite the opposite.

I'll go with Jiraya on this one.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (May 29, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Well, judging from manga statements, made by Kishimoto himself, Jiraya > Itachi. Judging from feats, it's quite the opposite.
> 
> I'll go with Jiraya on this one.


you were '' this '' close 
you continue to prove yourself a great poster
rep + for you fighter


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## Equilibrium139 (May 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Jiraiya wins , high diff
> he has the hype and the feats of being stronger than itachi
> he has more chakra and more stamina
> better physical states , speed , strengh
> ...


OK, so first off about what Itachi said about Jiraiya. Let's look at the context it was said. This was Part 1 Itachi who was still evidently sick from his unknown disease that decreases his chakra levels, and makes the usage of his MS abilities a lot less efficient. This was also after he had already used two Tsukuyomis and an Amaterasu, which we already know how taxing these are to him. Despite all this, Itachi states that if him and Jiraiya were to fight 1v1, then they would both die or suffer major injuries. After all this, explain to me how that panel proves Itachi was stating inferiority to Jiraiya. 
Now onto the other panel where Pain acknowledges Jiraiya's strength. Let's look at the context. Pain is in his own village. You could possibly say that he had more knowledge of the land and such, but compared to giving Jiraiya so many hiding places and sewers and whatnot to prepare his SM, this clearly was not an advantage for Pain, but for Jiraiya. Add on top of that the fact that this location restricts Pain greatly; he can't use any of his best abilities. After the fight, Pain states that if Jiraiya had full knowledge, he would have won. First off, I think you're really underestimating how much of an advantage full knowledge is against anyone. But I won't be going into that too much, I'm just gonna say that what Pain's statement means is that with full knowledge, Jiraiya would've won against Pain in Pain's own village, meaning without CT, ST, or CST. That's what that statement means. There's really no other way you can cut it out to mean. Not to mention the fact that it still doesn't put Jiraiya on top of Itachi regardless of how you interpret it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Icegaze (May 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Audio genjutsu
> frog call
> frog song
> underworld swamp
> cho odama rasengan



Audio genjutsu is frog song though 

Swamp is mostly featless 

Cho Odama is countered hard by V3 as per canon

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Android (May 29, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> OK, so first off about what Itachi said about Jiraiya. Let's look at the context it was said. This was Part 1 Itachi who was still evidently sick from his unknown disease that decreases his chakra levels, and makes the usage of his MS abilities a lot less efficient. This was also after he had already used two Tsukuyomis and an Amaterasu, which we already know how taxing these are to him. Despite all this, Itachi states that if him and Jiraiya were to fight 1v1, then they would both die or suffer major injuries. After all this, explain to me how that panel proves Itachi was stating inferiority to Jiraiya.
> Now onto the other panel where Pain acknowledges Jiraiya's strength. Let's look at the context. Pain is in his own village. You could possibly say that he had more knowledge of the land and such, but compared to giving Jiraiya so many hiding places and sewers and whatnot to prepare his SM, this clearly was not an advantage for Pain, but for Jiraiya. Add on top of that the fact that this location restricts Pain greatly; he can't use any of his best abilities. After the fight, Pain states that if Jiraiya had full knowledge, he would have won. First off, I think you're really underestimating how much of an advantage full knowledge is against anyone. But I won't be going into that too much, I'm just gonna say that what Pain's statement means is that with full knowledge, Jiraiya would've won against Pain in Pain's own village, meaning without CT, ST, or CST. That's what that statement means. There's really no other way you can cut it out to mean. Not to mention the fact that it still doesn't put Jiraiya on top of Itachi regardless of how you interpret it.


First of all , love the sig .....
that said , i am positive that itachi at that time didn't know about jiraiya sage mode , only reputation knowledge , which was enuff for him to make that statement , actually i see the second part of his statement as more valid
the whole itachi kisame/jiraiya , encounter was made to hype j-man even more ,and shows that even someone like itachi knew very well that jiraiya can take him out
jiraiya w/o even going all out and only using summons , push itachi to using his second strongest jutsu to escap , which '' amaterasu ''
jiraiya : '' you are not taking naruto ''
itachi : '' and why not ? ''
jiraiya : '' because right here , right now , you two will die by my hands ''
i'm not using this to implay jiraiya can take them both with ease
but all this , plus the fact that kisame merely acknowledged his inferiority in front of jiraiya : '' our levels are far too apart ''
plus the fact that itachi merely stated that even having a back up (i think he means kisame himself) will not change the outcomes of the battle 
all of this gives a slight advantage to jiraiya over itachi 
and the plot developement did not cancel this advantage in part 2
as jiraiya was taking on pain rikudou , someone who's stronger than itachi , and has a higher standing in akatsuki than itachi , whith a better doujutsu and a better arsenal ....etc etc etc
regardless of those secrets that pain was able to hide from jiraiya , it does not change the fact that it would've gave the win to jiraiya 
just like how Obito was able to hide his secrets from itachi , which was '' according to him '' the soul reason why he was still alive 
full knowledge is a factor in putting some characters above other characters in the manga 
plus i really don't think that pain not being able to use chibaku tensei or massive shinra tensei a big deal
do you think it would take a freaking chibaku tensei to beat jiraiya ???
do you think it would take a village destroyer shinra tensei to kill jiraiya ???
i think not , and with all due respect i still see pain without thses two moves stronger than knowledge-less jiraiya ,and sick itach
maybe the location gave jiraiya a better chance but the lack of knowledge about :
- pain's techniques 
- pain's paths 
- who's pain to begin with 
- what are his abilities
- how does those paths function 
- are they even human beings 
- who's controlling them 
- etc etc etc 
put jiraiya at a huge disadvantage , and even then he did very well , and killed 4 paths , and delivered NINGENDO's body , and a few more useful informations to konohagakure

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Equilibrium139 (May 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> i am positive that itachi at that time didn't know about jiraiya sage mode , only reputation knowledge , which was enuff for him to make that statement


His nickname was the "Toad Sage" in Part 1, and he was widely known. I doubt his sage mode was unknown to Itachi. Also, Itachi had knowledge of sage mode in the fight against Kabuto. And besides, this works both ways as Susanoo was introduced later on in the series so both characters developed.


cctr9 said:


> actually i see the second part of his statement as more valid
> the whole itachi kisame/jiraiya , encounter was made to hype j-man even more ,and shows that even someone like itachi knew very well that jiraiya can take him out
> jiraiya w/o even going all out and only using summons


With all due respect, I think you went a little too far. Using summons against Itachi is futile when he has Amaterasu, and Jiraiya has no chance against Itachi if he doesn't go all out. That's just an insult to ltachi. 


cctr9 said:


> jiraiya : '' you are not taking naruto ''
> itachi : '' and why not ? ''
> jiraiya : '' because right here , right now , you two will die by my hands ''
> i'm not using this to implay jiraiya can take them both with ease
> ...


Jiraiya stating that he would kill Itachi and Kisame is nothing solid to base an argument upon. Countless characters have said things along these lines and ultimately failed. 

Yes, Itachi stated that having a backup would not change the outcome after saying that a fight between him and Jiraiya would essentially end in a tie. Brilliant writing isn't it? No clarification from the writer whatsoever. How can a 1v1 fight end in a tie, but a 2v1 fight with the same people in that previously mentioned 1v1 have the same result? I get that he's trying to hype up Jiraiya but seriously, it should at least make a little sense.

On the contrary, I think the plot development in part 2 hyped Itachi up to god-like levels (relative to the time, I'm not saying he could beat fucking Kaguya or that he's god tier). First off, he plans out his entire fight against Sasuke, and it couldn't have gone any better. Honestly, I see that fight as a masterpiece. He's on his deathbed, he's blind, and not even his strongest genjutsu will work against his brother. Despite all of this, he is able to make his brother completely run out of chakra, make Orochimaru come out in his strongest form with his strongest jutsu, and beat him in as much time as it took him in part 1, all while using his most taxing jutsu for multiple minutes, and being hyped by Zetsu to be invincible. And to top it all off both Zetsu and Obito say that he was off and he usually fights a lot better than he did on that day. 



cctr9 said:


> as jiraiya was taking on pain rikudou , someone who's stronger than itachi , and has a higher standing in akatsuki than itachi , whith a better doujutsu and a better arsenal ....etc etc etc


Restricted Pain is not stronger than Itachi. Everytime there's a Pain v Itachi thread, it's always CT gg or ST gg or something like that. There's nothing like that here.


cctr9 said:


> regardless of those secrets that pain was able to hide from jiraiya , it does not change the fact that it would've gave the win to jiraiya


Yes, with full knowledge Jiraiya would have beaten a restricted Pain.


cctr9 said:


> just like how Obito was able to hide his secrets from itachi , which was '' according to him '' the soul reason why he was still alive


By secrets he was not referring to ability, rather to his intentions, true identity and how truly fucked up he was. If Itachi knew these things he would not have hesitated to confront him. This is nothing like the Jiraiya vs Pain situation, where the lack of knowledge is regarding ability, and where Jiraiya would've confronted him regardless.



cctr9 said:


> maybe the location gave jiraiya a better chance but the lack of knowledge about :
> - pain's techniques
> - pain's paths
> - who's pain to begin with
> ...



Yes, I agree that lack of knowledge was obviously a disadvantage for Jiraiya, but he's the one who chose to mosey on up Pain's village and expect to learn his abilities on the fly and ultimately beat him. Maybe his main intention going there was to gain more knowledge on him, but his mistake was to think that he could take them all out on the fly without any knowledge. I'm not trying to take anything away from his feat of killing 4 of the paths and delivering one of them to Konoha, but knowing his limits is part of being a smart fighter and was something he didn't display in that fight.


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## UltimateDeadpool (May 29, 2016)

Jiraiya = Itachi. Canon.

The fight could go either way.



KiNGPiN said:


> Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya doesn't have any super potent jutsu which can break through V1 Susano'o. On the other hand, apart from Amaterasu, Itachi doesn't have anything to touch Jiraiya either, as in CQC he gets destroyed by Frog Kata. J-Man's got better stamina and chakra reserves, though, so I'm gonna have to go with the Sage on this one.



Jiraiya has Sage-powered Chou Oodama Rasengan. That should be able to break through Susanoo, a Sage-powered Giant Waterfall from Kabuto completely destroyed Susanoo and slammed Sasuke against a wall.

How strong is a Sage compared to Tsunade or Ei? Both of which were capable of breaking Susanoo with their bare hands.

Jiraiya and the Ni Dai Senning probably have other jutsus that can damage and ultimately break through Susanoo.



Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's own physicality (without Susano'o) appeared to be sufficient to counter clashes with KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto and Killer Bee, all of whom are superior to Human Path that countered SM Jiraiya. Jiraiya's just out of his league here, in speed, brains, jutsu, etc. and his lone strength advantage is far from overwhelming (and completely absent when considering Susano'o.)
> 
> Jiraiya's only shot is to have full knowledge to prevent genjutsu (Ma & Pa are vulnerable too, and can kill Jiraiya if controlled/tricked) and a large amount of starting distance to prevent being overwhelmed by Susano'o.



KCM Naruto doesn't have any real speed feats besides his enhanced Body Flicker, SSJ1 Ei was still running circles around him. Itachi gained no advantage against Bee in CQC and eventually retreated. Kabuto did a number to Itachi aside from that one time Itachi blocked his Chakra Scalpel with Sasuke's sword.

The same Human Path that tried to blitz Jiraiya and got his face smashed it? The same one that tried to blitz Jiraiya from behind and still failed?

Everyone knows about Sharingan genjutsu. Itachi is also vulnerable to both of the Ni Dai Sennin's regular genjutsu. The three also have a perpetual partner method going on if they can't resist or break Itachi's genjutsu themselves, assuming they even get caught.

Why would Jiraiya be overwhelmed by Susanoo?? Danzo dodged Susanoo a few times and even managed to tear open a hole in it's back. Hell, 25 Susanoos couldn't even beat 5 Kages.

Itachi's powerful, but you simply overestimate him.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Android (May 29, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> His nickname was the "Toad Sage" in Part 1, and he was widely known. I doubt his sage mode was unknown to Itachi. Also, Itachi had knowledge of sage mode in the fight against Kabuto. And besides, this works both ways as Susanoo was introduced later on in the series so both characters developed.


sage does not always mean a sage mode user , it could mean someone knowledgeable , or someone wise , or someone with a high standing , not that itachi knew a lot about sage mode ; and even that doesn't mean he knew jiraiya possesses it anyway , but like you said it works both ways 


Equilibrium139 said:


> With all due respect, I think you went a little too far. Using summons against Itachi is futile when he has Amaterasu, and Jiraiya has no chance against Itachi if he doesn't go all out. That's just an insult to ltachi.


woo woo woo , hold on , where did i even implayed such a thing ??
I said , with just using summons , jiraiya was able to push itachi to use his mangekyo , and his second strongest jutsu 


Equilibrium139 said:


> Jiraiya stating that he would kill Itachi and Kisame is nothing solid to base an argument upon. Countless characters have said things along these lines and ultimately failed.
> 
> Yes, Itachi stated that having a backup would not change the outcome after saying that a fight between him and Jiraiya would essentially end in a tie. Brilliant writing isn't it? No clarification from the writer whatsoever. How can a 1v1 fight end in a tie, but a 2v1 fight with the same people in that previously mentioned 1v1 have the same result? I get that he's trying to hype up Jiraiya but seriously, it should at least make a little sense.
> 
> On the contrary, I think the plot development in part 2 hyped Itachi up to god-like levels (relative to the time, I'm not saying he could beat fucking Kaguya or that he's god tier). First off, he plans out his entire fight against Sasuke, and it couldn't have gone any better. Honestly, I see that fight as a masterpiece. He's on his deathbed, he's blind, and not even his strongest genjutsu will work against his brother. Despite all of this, he is able to make his brother completely run out of chakra, make Orochimaru come out in his strongest form with his strongest jutsu, and beat him in as much time as it took him in part 1, all while using his most taxing jutsu for multiple minutes, and being hyped by Zetsu to be invincible. And to top it all off both Zetsu and Obito say that he was off and he usually fights a lot better than he did on that day.


again , not what i was implaying , but the whole encounter between jiraiya/kisame/itachi , itachi praising jiraiya , kisame praising jiraiya , jiraiya standing up to them both , the toad stomach trap , every thing , i believe that's the manga telling us j-man is not less than equal to itachi with a slight advantage , as proven by the second part of itachi's statement , which is the part i believe is more valide , however there is some bad writing in this 
they both were heavely hyped during part 2 , jiraiya was taking on Pain rikudou , the strongest member in the akatsuki by that time , while itachi was confronting hebi sasuke 
jiraiya died fighting pain , while itachi lost his life against hebi sasuke
jiraiya got praised by Pain and Obito and BZ , the same thing can be said about itachi
jiraiya and itachi's death made a big influence on both naruto and sasuke 
naruto vowed to defeat Pain , and went to MM to learn sage mode 
while learning the truth obout itachi from '' madara/obito '' made sasuke awakening his mangekyo sharingan and vow to destroy konohagakure
naruto faught pain with his new power and was said to surpass jiraiya in term of controlling senjutsu , he did very good against Pain and become a hero and very knoweledgable shinobi among the five nations 
and was said to be stronger than sasuke by BZ 
while sasuke was taking on the kages , and was said to surpass itachi in termof amaterasu usage , and became known as an international criminal 
and then the turtle island arc came and naruto learned how to control the kyuubi's chakra thanks to jiraiya's help ,while sasuke got itachi's eyes
so yeah , they both had a very big influence on their brats 
and they both received the hype they deserved 
zetsu : '' with these legendary weapons , he is almost invincible "
hashirama : " you have a great brother sasuke , someone that puts a shinobi like me to shame "
Pain : " honestly , if we haven't kept our secrets , the outcomes of this fight would've been different ''
zetsu : " the fight took so long , his opponet was jiraiya after all "
juubi jinchuuriki Obito " well , i guess you could say i was defeated by jiraiya sensei "
plus the whole encounters with kabuto , and edo nagato , to praise both of them 


Equilibrium139 said:


> Restricted Pain is not stronger than Itachi. Everytime there's a Pain v Itachi thread, it's always CT gg or ST gg or something like that. There's nothing like that here


this is where we disagree , i belive Pain is stronger than itachi even without chibaku tensei , or a city destroyer shinra tensei 


Equilibrium139 said:


> Yes, with full knowledge Jiraiya would have beaten a restricted Pain.


good


Equilibrium139 said:


> By secrets he was not referring to ability, rather to his intentions, true identity and how truly fucked up he was. If Itachi knew these things he would not have hesitated to confront him. This is nothing like the Jiraiya vs Pain situation, where the lack of knowledge is regarding ability, and where Jiraiya would've confronted him regardless.


I don't think Tobi/Obito/Madara , was referring to such a thing , after all , itachi worked for the akatsuki for 10 years , he knew very well about the organization's goals and intentions , that's why he was working as a double agent , there wasn't a single time where we saw an encounter between the two of them where itachi was threatening obito or warning him or something
he never did anything to stop or dely his plans , and let's not kid ourselves ,konhagakure was not off limits when itachi was alive 
so , i don't think Obito ws referring to his intention , rather than something really secret like his Kamui or his Izanagi usage 


Equilibrium139 said:


> Yes, I agree that lack of knowledge was obviously a disadvantage for Jiraiya, but he's the one who chose to mosey on up Pain's village and expect to learn his abilities on the fly and ultimately beat him. Maybe his main intention going there was to gain more knowledge on him, but his mistake was to think that he could take them all out on the fly without any knowledge. I'm not trying to take anything away from his feat of killing 4 of the paths and delivering one of them to Konoha, but knowing his limits is part of being a smart fighter and was something he didn't display in that fight.


the same could be said about many shinobi , itachi thought he could stop kabuto by himself , and if it wasn't for sasuke's help , kabuto would've ended up taking back his control over itachi 
or like how naruto thought he could solo the war by himself without kurama's help , or how madara's plan of entrusting his eyes and plan to children was a stupid move that almost ruined everything for him
sometimes , it's just can't be helped , jiraiya was the most suited shinobi at that time in konohagakure to confront pain , and don't forget that at some point in that fight he was able to escap and get back to konohagakure , yet he chosed to stay and fight more


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## GayItachi (May 29, 2016)

Lord Itachi low diffs.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Icegaze (May 29, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Jiraiya = Itachi. Canon.
> 
> The fight could go either way.
> 
> ...



Cho Odama rasengan got shat on by V3 
I don't see how the addition of sage chakra would allow it to breach V4

However Jiriaya got sound techniques so he doesn't need to breach it

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## Ghoztly (May 29, 2016)

Itachi stomps him as if he were an academy student

Reactions: Creative 1 | Dislike 4


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## Trojan (May 29, 2016)

This thread again? 

It's canon that Jiraiya is stronger than him, why can't people move on? 
Jiraiya trashes that kid.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Kaiser (May 29, 2016)

I think they were portrayed to be around the same level due to their encounter in part1 and their comparison against Pain, but starting directly in SM with Pa and Ma as support gives Jiraya the edge here. Could maybe go either way though


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 29, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This is done to death. Itachi stomps.





Icegaze said:


> Boring thread
> Mid diff win for itachi
> Perhaps high diff


Y'all right these two combatants going at it is boring at this point and i would agree with itachi winning if he was starting out against base jiraiya or if jiraiya(or SM jiraiya for that matter) had no knowledge. 

But in this thread where they don't start off in close range, jiraiya starts in SM and the location is perfect for hiding to use ma/pa illusion itachi just can't low-mid diff. The OP stipulations favor him to much c'mon now.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## UltimateDeadpool (May 29, 2016)

KiNGPiN said:


> Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya doesn't have any super potent jutsu which can break through V1 Susano'o. On the other hand, apart from Amaterasu, Itachi doesn't have anything to touch Jiraiya either, as in CQC he gets destroyed by Frog Kata. J-Man's got better stamina and chakra reserves, though, so I'm gonna have to go with the Sage on this one.



Jiraiya has Sage-powered Chou Oodama Rasengan. That should be able to break through Susanoo, a Sage-powered Giant Waterfall from Kabuto completely destroyed Susanoo and slammed Sasuke against a wall.

How strong is a Sage compared to Tsunade or Ei, both of which were capable of breaking Susanoo with their bare hands?

Jiraiya and the Ni Dai Senning probably have other jutsus that can damage and ultimately break through Susanoo.



Sadgoob said:


> Itachi's own physicality (without Susano'o) appeared to be sufficient to counter clashes with KCM Naruto and Sage Kabuto and Killer Bee, all of whom are superior to Human Path that countered SM Jiraiya. Jiraiya's just out of his league here, in speed, brains, jutsu, etc. and his lone strength advantage is far from overwhelming (and completely absent when considering Susano'o.)
> 
> Jiraiya's only shot is to have full knowledge to prevent genjutsu (Ma & Pa are vulnerable too, and can kill Jiraiya if controlled/tricked) and a large amount of starting distance to prevent being overwhelmed by Susano'o.



KCM Naruto doesn't have any real speed feats besides his enhanced Body Flicker, SSJ1 Ei was running circles around him. Itachi gained no advantage against Bee in CQC and eventually retreated. Kabuto did a number to Itachi aside from that one time Itachi blocked his Chakra Scalpel with Sasuke's sword.

The same Human Path that tried to blitz Jiraiya and got his face smashed it? The same one that tried to blitz Jiraiya from behind and still failed?

Everyone knows about Sharingan genjutsu. Itachi is also vulnerable to both of the Ni Dai Sennin's genjutsu. They also have the partner method going on.
Why would Jiraiya be overwhelmed by Susanoo?? 25 Susanoos couldn't even beat 5 Kages.


Icegaze said:


> Cho Odama rasengan got shat on by V3
> I don't see how the addition of sage chakra would allow it to breach V4
> 
> However Jiriaya got sound techniques so he doesn't need to breach it



It doesn't help that Susanoo is quite notorious for being as inconsistent as hell, with weaker attacks sometimes working but sometimes stronger attacks not working. 
Still though, Sage chakra supercharges jutsus, with the databook saying that Jiraiya's Sage-powered Chou Oodama Rasengan could hollow a mountain if it were to explode. 
I wonder if a Sage-powered Wild Lion's Mane would break Susanoo? A normal Wild Lion's Made tore a gigantic lobster apart and smashed steel. 

Good point. Jiraiya has options.


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## Icegaze (May 29, 2016)

@UltimateDeadpool 
I doubt any of those things would break susanoo based on feats 
However he does have options 
Best to stick with those vs making baseless assumptions 

Allows for better arguments

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 29, 2016)

To be honest, could SM Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan bust through Itachi's Susano'o? Itachi's V2 Susano'o withstood the brunt of Kirin which its hype easily places it above FRS considering Zetsu even admitted that no level of nature manipulation could even match up to Kirin considering it uses natural lightning. That alone places it above FRS which is significantly above SM Naruto's Oodama Rasengan, so I have my doubts that SM Jiraiya can penetrate through Itachi's Susano'o.

Sure, Tsunade and Raikage could, but Raikage uses high levels of speed accompanied by Bijuu's Level Chakra along with Onoki's Weight Alteration in order to accomplish this and Tsunade, while Rusty and Chakra Depleted in Part 1 could easily toss Gamabunta's Sword. She easily had Sage Level Physical Strength since Part 1 yet even with improvements and Byakugou, she could only cause decent damage to a RibCage Susano'o. It's not really guaranteed that Sages can bust through Susano'o given how powerful those two actually are.

Itachi's Susano'o should at least be able to withstand the force of SM Jiraiya's Oodama Rasengan and push him away before it explodes much like how Madara did against Naruto.

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## UltimateDeadpool (May 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @UltimateDeadpool
> I doubt any of those things would break susanoo based on feats
> However he does have options
> Best to stick with those vs making baseless assumptions
> ...



Lol.

Have you seen Susanoo defend against a Sage-powered attack?


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## Trojan (May 29, 2016)

Why would Jiraiya use Rassengan anyway?

Frog Call will shut down itachi and his Susanoo in their track. 
The swamp will do the same thing as well.

Jiraiya does not need to use firepower to trash the Susanoo.


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## Equilibrium139 (May 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> this is where we disagree , i belive Pain is stronger than itachi even without chibaku tensei , or a city destroyer shinra tensei


And off what are you basing this? 


cctr9 said:


> I don't think Tobi/Obito/Madara , was referring to such a thing , after all , itachi worked for the akatsuki for 10 years , he knew very well about the organization's goals and intentions , that's why he was working as a double agent , there wasn't a single time where we saw an encounter between the two of them where itachi was threatening obito or warning him or something
> he never did anything to stop or dely his plans , and let's not kid ourselves ,konhagakure was not off limits when itachi was alive
> so , i don't think Obito ws referring to his intention , rather than something really secret like his Kamui or his Izanagi usage


There was no mention of anyone knowing Obito's intention other than Nagato. Even so, their ideologies differed and they both wanted different outcomes from the Akatsuki. The rest of the members were told very vaguely something along the lines of "Capture the bijuu and collect their power so we can have world peace through whatever methods we employ later on". 

And if Konoha was not off limits when Itachi was alive, then why would Obito state this? You can't argue the validity of a statement made by a character who has no reason to lie whatsoever. Unless you want to contradict the author that is.

When Obito says he was able to keep a few secrets from Itachi, I have a hard time seeing how he could be referring to secret abilities. Think of it this way. What's more likely:
A. Itachi not killing Obito because he didn't know of some secret ability.
B. Itachi not killing Obito because he didn't know that Obito knew the truth about Itachi, and that he would spill it to Sasuke once he died. 
Also, consider the context in which Obito said this. Right after Itachi's death! Itachi also implants Amaterasu in Sasuke's eyes in case Obito tells the truth about Itachi. The clues are all there, and they indicate that option B is the correct one. 



cctr9 said:


> the same could be said about many shinobi , itachi thought he could stop kabuto by himself , and if it wasn't for sasuke's help , kabuto would've ended up taking back his control over itachi
> or like how naruto thought he could solo the war by himself without kurama's help , or how madara's plan of entrusting his eyes and plan to children was a stupid move that almost ruined everything for him
> sometimes , it's just can't be helped , jiraiya was the most suited shinobi at that time in konohagakure to confront pain , and don't forget that at some point in that fight he was able to escap and get back to konohagakure , yet he chosed to stay and fight more


Good point, except for the last sentence. That's what I was talking about when I said he should know his limits. Even though he had a chance to escape, he chose instead to stay at the expense of his life.


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## Sapherosth (May 29, 2016)

How does Jiraiya deal with Amateratsu?


He has no speed feats to dodge it, nor does he have any defence that can block it in time. Sealing doesn't work because he has to pull of a scroll and write it all up and perform the jutsu. He'll be burning in flames. 

-We have MANGA fact that Jiraiya DOES NOT know about Amateratsu and how it works. He was shitting himself from seeing it. Therefore, it would be ridiculous to say that Jiraiya with Manga intel will effectively avoid or defend against Amateratsu. Not that he has the capabilities in the first place, since he lacks both.

-How does Jiraiya avoid Tsukuyomi?  Jiraiya is predominantly a CQC fighter, and he has no feats of extraordinary sensing abilities that suggests that he'll be able to fight effectively while avoiding eye contact. Ma & Pa ALSO has to do the same thing as well, since the partner method doesn't work against Tsukuyomi. We don't know the limits of the sensing barrier or how good it is as well. One cannot simply use the sensing barrier and ignore their natural instincts when fighting (that is looking at your opponent's eye) without prior training or experience. Additionally, if he uses the movement sensing barrier, he will be susceptible to an Amateratsu which he won't see coming. 

-MA & PA also likes to argue and causes a scene, which creates an opening for Itachi. Jiraiya also likes to let his guard down by doing ridiculous poses and Ma & Pa hits him for it.  Unlike Pain, Itachi will take advantage of that. Itachi is the type to never let openings go by.

-Summons gets wrecked by Genjutsu. Either commit suicide or surprise attack Jiraiya. Using them to surprise attack Jiraiya would be more likely.

- Itachi will find Jiraiya's weaknesses and exploit it much faster than Jiraiya learning about Itachi's jutsu's and weaknesses. We've already seen their intellect and analytical abilities comparison from their encounter with the 6 path's abilities. 
Itachi figured out how Pain's jutsu's work MANY times faster than Jiraiya did....and even then, Jiraiya also needed Ma & Pa to help him work it out as well and it was STILL slower than Itachi who saw it once. 


Before we even get to Susano, how does Jiraiya even survive either one of these 2 jutsu's? 


Part 1 statement doesn't even help when we know for a fact that Itachi was on Konoha's side the whole time and the fact that Itachi's statements has been inconsistent throughout his life (living years). The only statements that Itachi made which could be taken with no ulterior motive would be his Edo.

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## UltimateDeadpool (May 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> How does Jiraiya deal with Amateratsu?
> 
> 
> He has no speed feats to dodge it, nor does he have any defence that can block it in time. Sealing doesn't work because he has to pull of a scroll and write it all up and perform the jutsu. He'll be burning in flames.
> ...



Avoid it. Now what does Itachi do about Underworld Swamp or Flattened Silhouette Manipulation?

In base he has a 4.5 in speed, same as Sasuke who avoided it, and here he starts in Sage Mode where he can blitz a football field before his sandal that he takes off touches the ground. In fact, Jiraiya ran past Pein so fast he was in shock.

Lol @ shitting himself. He knows about it now, and we know about it so we're arguing it. Besides, you see a black fireball coming at you, it's instinctual to get out of the way or defend yourself, like with a Kawarimi like Bee did who also didn't arguably know about Amaterasu. Besides, Amaterasu burns slow enough, Jiraiya could seal it.

Do you know what Jiraiya's previous experience is that says he can't fight a Sharingan user? The detection barrier detects the slightest movements, and Jiraiya still has Sage sensing which is like precognition, as well as Frog Katas. Also, using Amaterasu creates a lot of chakra pressure which can be detected. The Ni Dai Sennin also have Sage sensing and Frog Katas and can very well just keep their eyes shut, like Jiraiya. This is also all assuming Tsukiyomi would infact work on Jiraiya. Now, what does Itachi do against two genjutsu masters using genjutsu on him? I'm not even talking about Frog Song either, that's just their strongest genjutsu.

Yeah, that opening didn't work for Pein either, Jiraiya's alert and quick.

If they make eye contact and/or don't use the partner method, maybe.

Two completely difference scenarios, for one thing Jiraiya was under duress while Itachi was hiding and watching Naruto and Bee do all the fighting. Besides, guess who's here? The Ni Dai Sennin. Jiraiya is a smart cookie, and it's not hard to figure out Itachi's abilities.

LMFAO. Itachi had no reason to lie, don't even bring that bullshit excuse up.

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## Icegaze (May 29, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Lol.
> 
> Have you seen Susanoo defend against a Sage-powered attack?



Have you seen a sage powered attack breach susanoo ?
Doubt that so silly question 

All we know is V3 shat on Odama rasengan 

V4 is at least twice the size with a full layer of armour sage enhancement would have to be quite significantly more than what was shown to breach

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## Icegaze (May 29, 2016)

@UltimateDeadpool 
Itachi avoids swamp and whatever else technique 
Seeing that they are easier to avoid by hype and feats 

If Jiriaya can avoid Amaterasu 

Itachi shits whole heartedly on YN

Seeing that it's slower

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## Equilibrium139 (May 29, 2016)

Itachi reacted to lightning, pathetic jutsu like those have no bearing against an opponent of this caliber. Besides, that shit is restricted for some reason.

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## Sapherosth (May 29, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Avoid it. Now what does Itachi do about Underworld Swamp or Flattened Silhouette Manipulation?
> 
> In base he has a 4.5 in speed, same as Sasuke who avoided it, and here he starts in Sage Mode where he can blitz a football field before his sandal that he takes off touches the ground. In fact, Jiraiya ran past Pein so fast he was in shock.
> 
> ...




Itachi can just flat out dodge it? He can see the jutsu signs that Jiraiya uses so he will be able to react quickly. He jumps up, use Katon to make the mud hard and land. I find it hilarious to say that a swamp can take out Itachi.

Flattened Silhouette Manipulation ?   What's that gonna do to Itachi? lmao

Sasuke never avoided it when Itachi was never planning to kill him from the start nor was Itachi aiming to hit Sasuke directly. You can clearly see that Itachi was aiming specifically on Sasuke's wings which should be much harder than just aiming at the large body. Additionally, Jiraiya's SM didn't improve his speed that much at all when we compare it to other speedsters like Bee V2 where his only speed was moving in linear movement, which got countered easily by 3 tomoe sharingan. Jiraiya was no different.


Jiraiya doesn't "know about it now"..... he only saw the aftermath...He was even saying "How on earth did he do this" ? Suggesting that even he himself has no idea what was going on. In a fight to the death situation, that lack of knowledge is fatal. Amateratsu doesn't burn slow....*I can't believe that you've just said Jiraiya will tank Amateratsu long enough to seal it. 
*
How do you know that Jiraiya has sage sensing when he hasn't shown it? Not that it matters because sage sensing doesn't really help against Amateratsu anyway. Just look at Kabuto's SM sensing...Didn't stop Sasuke from forming an entire circle of Amateratsu before Kabuto managed to stop. 

Why are you assuming that Tsukuyomi won't work on Jiraiya? Lol.... the 2 sages aren't genjutsu masters either, they only have notable genjutsu that they HAVE to use together, while Itachi has many genjutsu's which he can use solo and much easier to execute as well.


The two scenario's isn't that different at all.....they both saw the techniques, and one was able to figure out its weaknesses much at first glance and countered it, while the other was struggling to find out how it works and form strategies. Jiraiya is not a "smart cookie" compared with Itachi....and by the time Jiraiya figures out Itachi's jutsu, it would be when he's dying, just like against Pain.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Itachi reacted to lightning, pathetic jutsu like those have no bearing against an opponent of this caliber. Besides, that shit is restricted for some reason.


He did not "react" to it, he saw it coming from the sky and activated the Susanoo before Sasuke strikes.  Meanwhile, itachi couldn't react to Kabuto cutting him in half, now did he?

Or was Kabuto faster than the lightning?

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## Sapherosth (May 29, 2016)

Hussain said:


> He did not "react" to it, he was it coming from the sky and activated the Susanoo before Sasuke strikes.
> Meanwhile, itachi couldn't react to Kabuto cutting him in half, now did he?
> 
> Or was Kabuto faster than the lightning?




You just said Itachi didn't react to it, but then you said Itachi activated Susano as the lightning was coming from the sky?

That's called reacting, my friend.....

In Kabuto's case, it was clear baiting from Itachi's part. You and I both know that Izanami was not ready at the time, but why did Itachi say he will activate Izanami and turned off his Susano while leaving himself vulnerable next to Kabuto's mouth?  The only possible conclusions are:

1. Itachi is retarded.
2. Itachi was baiting.

Now, the since the first one is not true, it would be a safer assumption to say that the 2nd one is more likely to be the case.


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## Trojan (May 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You just said Itachi didn't react to it, but then you said Itachi activated Susano as the lightning was coming from the sky?
> 
> That's called reacting, my friend.....
> 
> ...



Itachi knew that Sasuke will attack him with Kirin because he was seeing it in front of him. He activated the Susanoo BEFORE the attack start. So, that does not have to do with his speed.

For example. If A wants to attack Gaara, but Gaara know that A is fast, so he turtles himself up in his sand BEFORE A start using his speed. That does not mean that Gaara has a reaction faster than A, it's just he was prepared before that happens.

- Lol, how it a clear biat? You are only making excuses for itachi. Izanami does not have anything to do with getting cut in half, now does it?

But I agree that itachi is retarded. All of his previous actions/plans lead to this conclusion


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## Sapherosth (May 29, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Itachi knew that Sasuke will attack him with Kirin because he was seeing it in front of him. He activated the Susanoo BEFORE the attack start. So, that does not have to do with his speed.
> 
> For example. If A wants to attack Gaara, but Gaara know that A is fast, so he turtles himself up in his sand BEFORE A start using his speed. That does not mean that Gaara has a reaction faster than A, it's just he was prepared before that happens.
> 
> ...



Cool story bro...Now show me a panel of Susano being activated before Sasuke used Kirin...better yet, show any sign of Susano before Kirin.

I hardly call it as an excuse considering the fact that Izanami was NOT ready at the time, and Itachi said he will now activate Iznami? When we know that it wasn't how you activate Izanami in the first place. It's an obvious bait.

All of his plans did indeed lead to this conclusion...albeit with interference from outside sources (Obito/Madara). At the end of the day, Itachi played a huge role on how Naruto and Sasuke turned out this way.

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## Trojan (May 29, 2016)

- The moment the focus was on his eyes, the Susanoo was being used. The same way like how even tho the Raikage smashed Sasuke into the ground and no Susanoo was shown at that moment, it appeared after that and was shown to be the thing that took the damage.
I guess you could it's just a usual mean an anime/manga to make things look more dangerous/entertaining. 

- Again, getting cut in half does not have anything to do with the Izanami, nor was it even to lead Kabuto to attack him in the same way either. Had Kabuto attacked him with the sword to close the loop, I would have agreed with you, but it simply was not.

The only way to say it's a "bait" is if you want to stretch the hell out of it and claim that
1- Itachi knew that Kabuto will come and attack him
2- Itachi knew FOR SURE that Sasuke will throw his sword toward Kabuto
3- itacho also knew FOR SURE that Sasuke WILL use his fire ball, and Kabuto will defeat it with his water style
4- Itachi knew for sure that Kabuto will use the sword that Sasuke threw at him to stab him in the EXACT SAME WAY he did before.

Too much of a stretch to take it seriously.

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## Sapherosth (May 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> - The moment the focus was on his eyes, the Susanoo was being used. The same way like how even tho the Raikage smashed Sasuke into the ground and no Susanoo was shown at that moment, it appeared after that and was shown to be the thing that took the damage.
> I guess you could it's just a usual mean an anime/manga to make things look more dangerous/entertaining.
> 
> - Again, getting cut in half does not have anything to do with the Izanami, nor was it even to lead Kabuto to attack him in the same way either. Had Kabuto attacked him with the sword to close the loop, I would have agreed with you, but it simply was not.
> ...





1. Itachi has shown the ability to read Kabuto's intentions at the start of their battle.....This is just a follow up, or an emphasis on Itachi's abilities to read people.

2. Sasuke was right next to him....It's logical for Sasuke to help him and it further emphasize on the point of Itachi starting to "trust in other's strengths" and not try to do everything alone.

3. Doesn't matter because all that was needed was for Kabuto to stab Itachi's clone.. Fireball or not, it was Itachi's chance to get Kabuto to get into CQC again. Before that, Kabuto was using jutsu's from a distance.

4. It was planned, just like I mentioned before.

In addition to how Itachi has already pre-planned his fight with Sasuke, it would be entirely possible for Itachi to do so again here, albeit to a lesser extent. This just shows Itachi's ability to plan fights.
It's not really a stretch at all when Kishi has already made some emphasis on Itachi's ability to read people and use it during battle.
The fact that Itachi deactivated his Susano, leaving himself vulnerable and saying he will activate Izanami (When he and us KNOW that it doesn't work like that) does not make any logical sense unless it was to bait. Which worked immediately afterwards, by the way.....

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## Sadgoob (May 30, 2016)

KiNGPiN said:


> Unlike Naruto, Jiraiya doesn't have any super potent jutsu which can break through V1 Susano'o.



Not only that, Itachi can likely evade anything Jiraiya tries to dish out as Itachi's much faster.



KiNGPiN said:


> On the other hand, apart from Amaterasu, Itachi doesn't have anything to touch Jiraiya either



Susano'o hand-grabs and genjutsu would both work as well. Particularly the tricky genjutsu that Itachi used on Deidara. If he lands that on just one of the three (Jiriaya, Shima, or Fukasaku,) then he basically sinks the entire ship. They also have no knowledge of Itachi's alternate ways of casting genjutsu.



KiNGPiN said:


> as in CQC he gets destroyed by Frog Kata.



Jiraiya does not use Frog Katas. Human Path caught his punch. Itachi, in contrast, has been shown to tangle with KCM Naruto, Killer Bee, and Sage Kabuto. Even without Susano'o, Itachi would be fine in CQC.

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## Icegaze (May 30, 2016)

Itachi does have jutsu advantages as does Jiriaya I think both parties need to realise this 

Jiriaya jutsu advantages 

- frog call 
- frog song 

Itachi jutsu advantages 
- tskuyomi 
- Amaterasu
- susanoo 

For me the one with the more jutsu advantages is more likely to win 

The techniques mentioned above are the ones both parties would have difficulties with 

I simply don't believe other tools in their Arsenal would present a problem

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## IzayaOrihara (May 30, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Jiraiya wins , high diff
> he has the hype and the feats of being stronger than itachi
> he has more chakra and more stamina
> better physical states , speed , strengh
> ...


I can't have said it any better.
Yomi Numa may be restricted, but Gamarinsho bypasses Susanoo. Jiraiya is from Konoha, and is a Shinobi of legend, so dont think he would know how to fight against Genjutsu if Chiyo and gai can. Plus he has sensing, which may mean he can evade Amaterasu. he's got huge oil katons to block his line of sight anyway. And who says he needs to waste time prepping Gamarinsho?


> *Senpou: Kawazu Naki*
> After focusing  chakra to their throats, both Fukasaku and Shima croak together in unison, releasing large, loud and immensely powerful sound waves that effectively annoy, distract and temporarily paralyse any afflicted targets completely.



*Spoiler*: __ 




A senjutsu-enhanced Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan.

When in Sage Mode, the user can perform a senjutsu-enhanced version known as Sage Art: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan (仙法・超大玉螺旋丸, Senpō: Chō Ōdama Rasengan).[3] Although it has not been successfully used in the series, it is said that _its destructive power_ – were it to explode – *would easily carve away an entire mountain*.
[/QUOTE]
Surely, Susano'o isn't tanking that. No, Susano'o is definitely not tanking that. Hey, who said Jiraiya will even wait for Susano'o to be up. Shima and Fukasaku can use Kawazu Naki before MS is even relevant.

There is just nothing Itachi, nor his fans can come up with to counter jiraiya. Itachi is extremely powerful, and he is cool and i know people like him, but the manga already dictated on two occasions that Jiraiya was stronger than Itachi, just with hype/portrayal alone. His feats/abilities are good too. You have to restrict Yomi numa, yet restrict Yata, which wouldn't have been relevant in this battle anyway.

Jiriaya wins High Difficulty, just like Prime, not Nerfed, but Prime Orochimaru wins against Itachi High Difficulty.

I can just see so many responses in this debate, which i didn't even bother to read. I don't get why Itachi fans are so desperate and reaching, just like the arguments they spawn.

Everything Itachi has < what Jiraiya has shown in the manga. Even restrict Gamarinsho and Jiraiya still wins this. He puts Itachi to sleep with Kawazu Naki, and then busts Itachi and/or his Susano'o with Senpō: Chō Ōdama Rasengan. He has SM sensing so doesn't need to make eye contact to fight. He will sense Amaterasu as the chakra is building up and either spam Kebari Senbon, or just start running around really fast so Itachi cannot follow his movements enough to be able to hit him with Amaterasu. Susano'o is countered by what I said earlier.

_So please, anyone, tell me how Itachi is winning this? Because even if in some fanfic manga he did have better feats that Jiraiya, *Kishimoto still doesn't agree with you*:_


*Spoiler*: __ 



 BASE JIRIAYA =/> (more likely >) ITACHI





*Spoiler*: __ 



SAGE MODE JIRAIYA (roughly) = RESTRICTED PAIN >>> (any canon/human form of) ITACHI

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## Icegaze (May 30, 2016)

V3 shat on cho Odama 
The addition of senjutsu chakra ain't going to be breaching V4 which is twice the size 

When cho Odama didn't even put the slightest crack in it

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## Clowe (May 30, 2016)

Stop posting that scan of Pain, he never used Deva in that fight, why? Because Kishi needed J-Man to look good before his death on his final fight, if Deva had fought from the beginning, he would have utterly shat on Jiraiya.

I'm sure you have heard this meany times before, but I'll tell you again.

A>B>C=A>C Logic has no place here in the BD, it just doesn't, stop using that kind of logic here.

As for this fight, Itachi wins high diff.

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## Sapherosth (May 30, 2016)

Clowe said:


> Stop posting that scan of Pain, he never used Deva in that fight, why? Because Kishi needed J-Man to look good before his death on his final fight, if Deva had fought from the beginning, he would have utterly shat on Jiraiya.
> 
> I'm sure you have heard this meany times before, but I'll tell you again.
> 
> ...




Ignore that tard. He's been posting shit for a while now.

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## Android (May 30, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> And off what are you basing this?


Based on feats :
itachi's ninjutsu is useless against GAKIDO and TENDO , the paths with shared vision and reflexes and black receivers beat him in CQC or gets his soul ripped off , he has no sort of method to detecte SHIKUCHUDO's chameleon , he can't outlast them , and he can't take a battle for too long , to stand a chance against pain he needs to abuse his mangekyo sharingan , and we all know he will itachi look like after a shot or two of amateras , a boss size shinra tensei or any attack from SHURADO and he gets killed when he's worn out 
and with JIGUKUDO on stand by , he needs to kill the paths at least twice 
so yeah , itachi still loses to pain even without massive shinra tensei or chibaku tensei 


Equilibrium139 said:


> There was no mention of anyone knowing Obito's intention other than Nagato. Even so, their ideologies differed and they both wanted different outcomes from the Akatsuki. The rest of the members were told very vaguely something along the lines of "Capture the bijuu and collect their power so we can have world peace through whatever methods we employ later on".
> 
> And if Konoha was not off limits when Itachi was alive, then why would Obito state this? You can't argue the validity of a statement made by a character who has no reason to lie whatsoever. Unless you want to contradict the author that is.
> 
> ...


There's no way that a smart guy like itachi , that worked for the akatsuki for 10 years , did not know about the organization's intention , the mere fact that he was working as a spy in the akatsuki , pretty much tells you that he had an idea about the akatsuki's hustle intentions towards the shinobi world 
or are you gonna say Itachi though that he's working for a community service company ???  


Clowe said:


> Stop posting that scan of Pain, he never used Deva in that fight, why? Because Kishi needed J-Man to look good before his death on his final fight, if Deva had fought from the beginning, he would have utterly shat on Jiraiya.
> 
> I'm sure you have heard this meany times before, but I'll tell you again.
> 
> ...


And this is what happens when people ignore manga facts , to justify their bias


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## Trojan (May 30, 2016)

Clowe said:


> Stop posting that scan of Pain, he never used Deva in that fight, why? Because Kishi needed J-Man to look good before his death on his final fight, if Deva had fought from the beginning, he would have utterly shat on Jiraiya.
> 
> I'm sure you have heard this meany times before, but I'll tell you again.
> 
> ...


Except Nagato used all of his Paths against Jiraiya when he was in base and with 1 arm, and even then, Jiraiya managed to kill 1 more. 



> A>B>C=A>C Logic has no place here in the BD, it just doesn't stop using that kind of logic here.


Funny how Itachi's fans are the biggest users of this logic whenever it suits them.

"Itachi defeated Oro, therefore, he defeats Jiraiya"

Their entire argument is based on this logic, and ignoring manga canon. 
It's not A>B>C = A>C
We know for a FACT that Jiraiya > Itachi DIRECTLY FROM ITACHI'S MOUTH.

Same fans will completely ignore this logic when it comes against him like saying for example
Tobirama/Minato defeated Izuna/Obito, therefore, they will defeat Itachi as easily/fast as they did to the other Uchiha.

Then, they will say Itachi fights differently, even tho Itachi has more in common with his clan's members than Oro has with Jiraiya. lol

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## Equilibrium139 (May 30, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> itachi's ninjutsu is useless against GAKIDO and TENDO


Yea, but there's four other Paths. And Amaterasu can work on all of them except for Tendo, and there's nothing to suggest the others are fast enough to dodge it.


cctr9 said:


> the paths with shared vision and reflexes and black receivers beat him in CQC or gets his soul ripped off


Shared vision won't be a problem with someone as smart as Itachi. He has plenty of LOS blockers and his clone feints are fast enough that neither Sharingan users nor sage mode users can read. He was even able to exploit the weakness in shared vision once, and he can do it again. Itachi was doing fine against Bee's swordsmanship, the rods won't be a problem.


cctr9 said:


> he has no sort of method to detecte SHIKUCHUDO's chameleon


Sharingan can see chakra.


cctr9 said:


> he can't outlast them , and he can't take a battle for too long , to stand a chance against pain he needs to abuse his mangekyo sharingan , and we all know he will itachi look like after a shot or two of amateras ,


Sick Itachi used a Tsukuyomi, multiple genjutsus, 2 Amaterasus, one which was enough to circle the entire mountain, two Katons, and Susanoo for multiple minutes. He still outlasted his brother and then some. MS Sasuke on the day of the kage summit used Susanoo for god knows how long,  and spammed the fuck out of Amaterasu. If Sasuke can last for that long, and his brother outlasted him before, what's different now? Did Sasuke magically increase his Chakra levels? This leads me to think that healthy Itachi could also last as long as MS Sasuke, and probably a bit more. And with knowledge no chakra will be wasted on experimenting and testing what works and what doesn't.


cctr9 said:


> a boss size shinra tensei or any attack from SHURADO and he gets killed when he's worn out
> and with JIGUKUDO on stand by , he needs to kill the paths at least twice


No way Itachi doesn't dispose of the bodies through sealing, or get rid of Jigukodo first with clone feints like Naruto, or hell, even Konohamaru did. And why would Pain use that type of ST that is also harmful to the village. Anyways, Naruto was holding his ground against ST with _clones. _I have a good feeling that Itachi could hold his ground with Susanoo, as well as the Yata Mirror, and capitalize on the 5-second time frame with Totsuka. ST is a chakra based attack that can also possibly be reflected by the mirror, or at least negated.


cctr9 said:


> There's no way that a smart guy like itachi , that worked for the akatsuki for 10 years , did not know about the organization's intention , the mere fact that he was working as a spy in the akatsuki , pretty much tells you that he had an idea about the akatsuki's hustle intentions towards the shinobi world
> or are you gonna say Itachi though that he's working for a community service company ???


That my friend is called a plot hole, and Naruto is riddled with them. If he really knew their intentions and was supposedly a spy, then why didn't he kill Obito? Plus, there's no evidence that Obito was talking about an ability, unless you have something I wasn't aware about. Actually, this isn't even about the Akatsuki's intentions and their goals. This is about Itachi not knowing  that Obito's intentions were to tell Sasuke the truth about Itachi and to manipulate him after Itachi's death so that he wouldn't go back to Konoha. All the evidence points to that, and nothing shows otherwise.


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## Clowe (May 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Funny how Itachi's fans are the biggest users of this logic whenever it suits them.
> 
> "Itachi defeated Oro, therefore, he defeats Jiraiya"
> 
> ...


 
And did Nagato ever use ST, BT or CT agaisnt Jiraiya? that was my point, obviously Deva was there at the end, but if he didn't use any of his abilities then it doesn't mean anything.

In any case my A>B>C=A>C wasn't referring to the topic of Jiraiya vs Itachi at all, i was merely pointing out Izaya's habit of stating that since Orochimaru > Jiraiya (which in itself is arguable) then that automatically means Orochimaru can defeat anyone Jiraiya can by default.

THAT is faulty logic wouldn't you agree?


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## Trojan (May 30, 2016)

Clowe said:


> And did Nagato ever use ST, BT or CT agaisnt Jiraiya? that was my point, obviously Deva was there at the end, but if he didn't use any of his abilities then it doesn't mean anything.
> 
> In any case my A>B>C=A>C wasn't referring to the topic of Jiraiya vs Itachi at all, i was merely pointing out Izaya's habit of stating that since Orochimaru > Jiraiya (which in itself is arguable) then that automatically means Orochimaru can defeat anyone Jiraiya can by default.
> 
> THAT is faulty logic wouldn't you agree?


- I don't know what he used as it was off-panel, but who cares? Are you suggesting that when X character fight Y, X must use every jutsu
that he has, or Y should wait for him to use every jutsu he has? 

- Well, you don't know if he used his abilities, or not. The point stands that Jiraiya took on all 6 of them with 1 arm, and still managed to kill one.

- I guess Izaya uses itachi's fans arguments against them. 
But I am not sure, since I don't read his walls. 

- Yes, I agree. That's my main problem with itachi's fanboys in the first place. lol


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## Platypus (May 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Except Nagato used all of his Paths against Jiraiya when he was in base and with 1 arm, and even then, Jiraiya managed to kill 1 more.


In base? [1] [2]


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## UchihaX28 (May 30, 2016)

Clowe said:


> And did Nagato ever use ST, BT or CT agaisnt Jiraiya? that was my point, obviously Deva was there at the end, but if he didn't use any of his abilities then it doesn't mean anything.
> 
> In any case my A>B>C=A>C wasn't referring to the topic of Jiraiya vs Itachi at all, i was merely pointing out Izaya's habit of stating that since Orochimaru > Jiraiya (which in itself is arguable) then that automatically means Orochimaru can defeat anyone Jiraiya can by default.
> 
> THAT is faulty logic wouldn't you agree?



 It absolutely is faulty logic and you just reassured me how hypocritical Izaya can be.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2016)

Platypus said:


> In base? [1] [2]


oh well, my mistake I guess. 

Still taking on pain with 1 arm is more than enough to deal with the much weaker opponent, itachi.


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## Sapherosth (May 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> oh well, my mistake I guess.
> 
> Still taking on pain with 1 arm is more than enough to deal with the much weaker opponent, itachi.





Does Pain have Amateratsu or Tsukuyomi, or even Susano? Does he have Itachi's analytical abilities and insight?

If not, then they cannot be compared.

Likewise, I can easily say Itachi took out Orochimaru (Jiraiya's rival) with his strongest technique while Itachi was out of chakra, blind and coughing up blood. 

Your logic fails, yet again.


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## Trojan (May 30, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Does Pain have Amateratsu or Tsukuyomi, or even Susano? Does he have Itachi's analytical abilities and insight?
> 
> If not, then they cannot be compared.
> 
> ...


Why dies that matter to an itachi's fans tho? 
Jiraiya and Oro does not have anything to do with each others in term jutsu as well. Did not stop them from taking itachi's win over
Oro as a proof to their advantage, no? 



> Likewise, I can easily say Itachi took out Orochimaru (Jiraiya's rival) with his strongest technique while Itachi was out of chakra, blind and coughing up blood.


That's what his fans do all the time to begin with. 
What proof do they have to say itachi is stronger than Jiraiya otherwise? lol

Literally, their entire argument is based on this whole itachi Vs Oro.


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## UchihaX28 (May 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> oh well, my mistake I guess.
> 
> Still taking on pain with 1 arm is more than enough to deal with the much weaker opponent, itachi.



Seems as if Jiraiya can accomplish more with one arm than Minato ever could with both his arms. 

 Interesting how Jiraiya and his pupil both having something in common: They both are incapable of preserving their arms. I wonder why that is?

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (May 30, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Why dies that matter to an itachi's fans tho?
> Jiraiya and Oro does not have anything to do with each others in term jutsu as well. Did not stop them from taking itachi's win over
> Oro as a proof to their advantage, no?
> 
> ...




Exactly, Orochimaru isn't Jiraiya. Their jutsu's are completely different and they're both suited for different opponents. That's really all there is to it.

The proof that Itachi fans have that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya is that Itachi's jutsu's are instantaneous. It requires no seal, no prep and it is extremely hard to avoid unless you have prior knowledge. He also has one of the best analytical minds in the manga, coupled with a lot of 1 hit kill techniques. It's not really surprising that people feel that Itachi has an edge over Jiraiya. Jiraiya on the other hand relies on a combination of techniques which aren't as fast 

The people who solely use Itachi vs Oro as an argument that Itachi also > Jiraiya is arguably retarded and shouldn't be taken seriously. The only time you should use it is in conjunction with other points as well such as technique, intellect, feats, portrayal and manga.

Of course, *sometimes *this logic can be used if there's considerable gap between them or there's direct statement by characters themselves (*Remember state of mind, plot relevance and reason why they would say it*). 

Ones like Itachi's statement about Jiraiya has many other factors into considerable such as (Itachi was a spy. Itachi was with Kisame (arguable dangerous by himself), no reason to fight his ally (jiraiya), and was only there to warn danzo and he was a pacifist at heart. He also has to keep face to his partner (Kisame) and deter him from engaging. He also lies quite a lot, as stated by himself and others. 

All of these points play a factor in influencing that statement and it really takes away its credibility.



Another example where the statement can be taken literally - 

Hashirama stating that Juubito was stronger than himself. Firstly, Hashirama had no reason to lie, he had no ulterior motive and Hiruzen (his former student and professor) acknowledges and agrees with Hashirama's statement. 

That's the only time this sort of statement can be taken literally.


Just remember to not take statements at face value if there are other factors to consider.


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## Matty (May 31, 2016)

Pein shouldn't even be brought up.

Idk why this is always such a shitshow but to me it is 50/50 leaning towards Itachi a bit because of hax. By no means is this even a mid did fight for either. Whoever wins is gonna go through some shit


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

IMO there's a clear gap. Itachi's more equivalent to War Arc Sasge Naruto.

I mean really guys, Jiraiya couldn't take Human, Animal, and Preta head on. He said he'd die.

War Arc Sage Naruto would neg-diff those guys with Frog Katas and Sage sensing (Jiraiya showed neither.)

Itachi would low-diff them with a quick Susano'o hand-grab, shuriken, genjutsu, etc.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Icegaze (May 31, 2016)

@Sadgoob 
I strongly doubt Jiriaya would neg diff them 

Susanoo first off would be useless so long as preta is there 

I assume Itachi would use his Crimson flower Jutsu which preta can't absorb 

However animal can counter 

Curve Kunai in blindspot is I believe what itachi will be aiming to do in order to move undetected Jiriaya also tried to blind side them 

He then used his fastest SM technique and it still wasn't fast enough . So I think reaction wise the paths Aren't bad

I can't see itachi having such a hard time as Jiriaya did simply because he has a better Arsenal 

Oro would also have an easier time. 

However not about u here specifically but it's rather weak posting when people keep bringing up pain 

Any idiot could then reply itachi neg diff oro someone Jiriaya didn't beat and we just keep going in circles from there 

Best to ignore any weak poster who brings up such pointless points

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (May 31, 2016)

Matty said:


> Pein shouldn't even be brought up.
> 
> Idk why this is always such a shitshow but to me it is 50/50 leaning towards Itachi a bit because of hax. By no means is this even a mid did fight for either. Whoever wins is gonna go through some shit


If itachi believe that he can barely take on Base Jiraiya, chances are there is a rather big gap between him and SM Jiraiya.
Heck, even Habi Sasuke drove itachi to his limits.


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## Trojan (May 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> IMO there's a clear gap. Itachi's more equivalent to War Arc Sasge Naruto.
> 
> I mean really guys, Jiraiya couldn't take Human, Animal, and Preta head on. He said he'd die.
> 
> ...



Genjutsu will not affect the Rinnegan which is 2 stages above itachi's MS. There goes 90% of his power.
Susanoo is useless against Preta.

It's debatable if itachi can even take on the Animal path by himself to be honest.


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Sadgoob
> 
> Susanoo first off would be useless so long as preta is there



That's only if Preta could *intercept* between Itachi and whatever non-Preta Path he's targeting. I don't think he can..

i.e. Naruto killed Asura with Rasengan when Preta was alive, because Preta couldn't intercept. Itachi's definitely one of the fast characters, and the Susano'o hand-grab is insanely fast in itself. Preta can save himself from that move, but not other Paths IMO.


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Genjutsu will not affect the Rinnegan which is 2 stages above itachi's MS. There goes 90% of his power.



Nagato has the only pair of Rinnegan. His summons don't. And his Pain bodies don't. They're just being controlled.

Nagato also isn't a true Rinnegan user, he can only access a small portion of Madara's eyes' power.



Hussain said:


> Susanoo is useless against Preta.



We actually don't know whether the legendary items Itachi has are made of chakra and can be absorbed. Unlikely IMO.



Hussain said:


> It's debatable if itachi can even take on the Animal path by himself to be honest.



Is it really? Itachi can evade all summons easily if he evaded Bee and Naruto.

And he can put kunai in their eyes, with or without using a clone feint to get in their blindspots.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (May 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> That's only if Preta could *intercept* between Itachi and whatever non-Preta Path he's targeting. I don't think he can..
> 
> i.e. Naruto killed Asura with Rasengan when Preta was alive, because Preta couldn't intercept. Itachi's definitely one of the fast characters, and the Susano'o hand-grab is insanely fast in itself. Preta can save himself from that move, but not other Paths IMO.



That was also a surprise attack from naruto something you seem to ignore 

I don't believe preta can save other paths from hand grab 

But they can save themselves 
A simple summon is enough to prevent the hand grab though

Don't you think ?

Surely the path can if it can easily and I mean easily react to Jiriaya fastest attack 

Just my thoughts though
Truth be told this fight is boring


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> That was also a surprise attack from naruto something you seem to ignore



There are plenty of other times Preta isn't there to defend. Itachi's Susano'o pimp-hand would work any time here:

[2]
[2]
[2]
[2]
[2]

And when Pain did use Preta, he sent him out alone:

[2]

Do you _*really*_ think Itachi couldn't destroy Preta 1v1?

[2]

Hell, Naruto used a tiny _*RASENGAN *t_o killer Naraka_ *WHEN BOTH PRETA AND DEVA are 1 yard away!*_

So do you really think Itachi couldn't do this to ANY Path because Preta would always be there to stop it?


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

Itachi's so fast and tactical (clone feints and otherwise,) and that instant Susano'o hand-grab is so deadly (I don't think Itachi could evade Sasuke's, he had to use his own to deflect) it just seems insane to me that you think Preta could stop the jutsu from working on any other Path when we saw Jiraiya and Naruto get Paths by themselves pretty easily.

Saying "Susano'o won't work because of Preta" is just wrong. Susano'o worked on Nagato himself. When Itachi rescued Bee and Naruto, he had Susano'o chop off Nagato crybernetic arms and his real arm too (regenerated by Edo.) He also caught Nagato with the Totsuka in the end by using a dust cloud to slow down his reaction ability.

The only difference between Nagato and Preta is that Nagato was stated to have much faster reflexes by KCM Naruto. So if Itachi caught Nagato (a much faster version of Preta) off guard and effectively cut him apart with Susano'o, then why would you consider it impossible he do it to Preta, let alone other Paths Preta can't always be next to?

Why would throwing up a dust cloud or attacking after a clone feint and then using Susano'o to cut up Preta before Preta reacts with the bubble not work if it worked twice on Nagato himself (a much faster Preta?)

Nah man, I'm pretty sure Itachi would absolutely wreck Human, Animal, and Preta if he used those Susano'o hands. I don't even think they'd be necessary for him to win though. Naruto was destroying Paths left and right with clone feints and taijutsu and tiny Rasengan. Itachi doing the same with clone feints and weapons seems about right.

Against the 3 Path Jiraiya ran from... both SM Naruto (_*especially*_ War Arc SM Naruto) and Itachi would devastate them. There's a level difference between them, and SM Jiraiya is a level below IMO.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 31, 2016)

> [="Sapherosth, post: 55676818, member: 251808"]Exactly, Orochimaru isn't Jiraiya. Their jutsu's are completely different and they're both suited for different opponents. That's really all there is to it.


The only way to compare the two in this situation is simply by bringing up other fights. Itachi's fans refuse to follow the manga under any circumstances when people bring up proofs in favor of other characters. I.E itachi's statement about Jiraiya.

Because of their denial for obvious facts, the only other way is simply by comparing by other indirect means. Of course, it's obvious that it won't work since they deny a clear-like-a-sun proof, which makes this topic which shouldn't be debatable in the first place drag on for too long, and for as many years as it did.  Even tho Kishi ended the debate years ago.



> The proof that Itachi fans have that Itachi is stronger than Jiraiya is that Itachi's jutsu's are instantaneous. It requires no seal, no prep and it is extremely hard to avoid unless you have prior knowledge. He also has one of the best analytical minds in the manga, coupled with a lot of 1 hit kill techniques. It's not really surprising that people feel that Itachi has an edge over Jiraiya. Jiraiya on the other hand relies on a combination of techniques which aren't as fast


None of itachi's moves are instantaneous to begin with. THEY want them to be like this. And even then, we have characters that are faster than itachi, and actually do have instantaneous moves, but no one claim them to be the strongest. Take Tobirama for example, he has FTG which is faster than anything itachi could ever have. However, he still lost to Kin/Gin who are not nearly as fast. So, this is not really an argument.

Additionally, even when it comes to his moves, itachi's fans will ignore anything that says something against their beliefs, and will always try to make excuses to make it seems like there is absolutely noway to deal with his moves, which is an obvious nonsense. For example,

His moves are clarified by the Databook as a short-range jutsu. They will refuse it, to make his jutsu can be used from anywhere and has 100% accuracy!

The same with how they refuse the fact that Tsunade heald the effect of his most powerful Genjutsu with no terrible whatsoever. How can you debate someone if no matter what statements or feats you bring to him, they will ALWAYS make excuses! And then they start saying he was lying this time, but he was not lying this other time!

For example:
Itachi's statement about Jiraiya? LIES!!!! OMG! CAN'T BE TRUE, EVER!!!
Itachi's statement about Tsukiyomi? 100% no one can take it! 

And this bring me to your point


> He also has one of the best analytical minds in the manga,


Here, itachi's fans ALWAYS bring up "He is a spy, he MUST have been lying"  when it comes to his power in comparesion to others.
However, when it comes to his "analytical" feats supposedly, they always seem to forget that argument of theirs!
Like with this one here






> The people who solely use Itachi vs Oro as an argument that Itachi also > Jiraiya is arguably retarded and shouldn't be taken seriously. The only time you should use it is in conjunction with other points as well such as technique, intellect, feats, portrayal and manga.


I agree. Frankly tho, if they will rely on this as well, Jiraiya will be now MUCH stronger than itachi as well
as Oro obtained ET and he is far stronger than itachi as well. lol

So, even this argument does not work anymore either way.



> Of course, *sometimes *this logic can be used if there's considerable gap between them or there's direct statement by characters themselves (*Remember state of mind, plot relevance and reason why they would say it*).


I agree here as well.




> Ones like Itachi's statement about Jiraiya has many other factors into considerable such as (Itachi was a spy. Itachi was with Kisame (arguably dangerous by himself), no reason to fight his ally (jiraiya), and was only there to warn danzo and he was a pacifist at heart. He also has to keep face to his partner (Kisame) and deter him from engaging. He also lies quite a lot, as stated by himself and others.


Frankly I see no reason for him to lie in the first place as he did not mind fighting Konoha's jonin earlier, nor did he mind even tourtring his own brother whom he supposedly care for deeply, but he will care about Jiraiya or even Naruto? The same Narudo whom itachi was telling Sasuke to kill? (His best friend?))

And second, how can you possibly lie to someone who already know fully aware of your power?
This is not a rational thought. Kisame already know that itachi has the MS, and he is aware of Amatersu and Tsukiyomi and their effect and function. Those same 2 moves that itachi's fans alwas bring up in this debate, so how can he lie?

Kisame was with him for like what, 7 years at least at that point? You seriously think that he can lie (regarding his power) to someone
who was with him this long? Had Kisame been new to the Akatsuki and was completely unaware of itachi's power, I would have agreed with you, but this is not the case.

In top of that, at no point in the entire manga was that event brought up and stated that itachi was lying, so we have no reason to believe he was. Especially we later down the road Kishi had Jiraiya fighting itachi's boss no less. Had Kishi had Jiraiya getting killed by the lower
tier Akatsuki like say Hidan for example, then sure. But he put him against the boss himself with even stronger eye than itachi's.


> All of these points play a factor in influencing that statement and it really takes away its credibility.


It really does not for the points I stated above. In fact, everything came after that statement made it more crediable.

1- We got that SM is pretty much the counterpart (and superior actually) power
as we have seen with
SM Hashirama > EMS Madara
Jiraiya > itachi
SM Narudo > MS Sasuke
SM Kabuto > itachi or EMS Sasuke

The story kept showing us this relationship in that regard up until the last chapter.

2- Both Naruto and Sasuke took those jutsu passed down to them. Yet zetsu stated that Naruto is stronger than Sasuke.
So, the jutsu he got passed down to him was the superior power up obviously.

3- The main problem in the past that I saw in this debate was the Susanoo to be honest.

However, Kishi showed us how sensing, sound, and attacks from under the ground work against MS/Susanoo users. All of which
Jiraiya has, and it made a perfect sense to why Jiraiya is stronger than itachi.


> Another example where the statement can be taken literally -
> 
> Hashirama stating that Juubito was stronger than himself. Firstly, Hashirama had no reason to lie, he had no ulterior motive and Hiruzen (his former student and professor) acknowledges and agrees with Hashirama's statement.
> 
> That's the only time this sort of statement can be taken literally.



No. Knowledge plays a big factor as well.
For example, Kabuto stating that no one alive is as strong as Hashirama. He obviously was not correct because Gai was tiers stronger than Hashirama, and he was alive.

Here, itachi is aware of his own ability (Just like Hashirama), and Kisame is ALSO aware of itachi's ability (just like how Hiruzen to Hashirama). So, how can we say that Hiruzen's statement proves Hashirama's point, but not Kisame's?

Itcchi's fans are focusing all their attention on "He is a spy" but completely ignoring that Kisame is his partner and know about his power.
He might not know about his intentions of joining the Akatsuki, but that does NOT affect his knowledge of itachi's power, now does it?



> Just remember to not take statements at face value if there are other factors to consider.


Which I do not.

Same thing happened back when the Hokage came back to life, Hashirama's dick riders all went nuts because of his statement
"This guy is stronger tham I am" and took it as a proof that Hashirama is the strongest character there.

I was the only one who refused their interpretations because of Hashirama's lack of knowledge on anyone in the field. They kept riding on his dick, until Gai needed to slap their faces to wake them up.

However, the same can't be said here because Kisame is aware of itachi's power. It's that simple.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 31, 2016)

> [="Sadgoob, post: 55677177, member: 164017"]Nagato has the only pair of Rinnegan. His summons don't. And his Pain bodies don't. They're just being controlled.


And that affects what exactly? They still get the benefits of those eyes as they clearly share the vision.
And we have also seen Yogito benefiting from the Sharingan as B said. 


> Nagato also isn't a true Rinnegan user, he can only access a small portion of Madara's eyes' power.


I don't know from where you came with that, but I hope you don't say this "small portion" does not include the Genjutsu conveniently! 

As
1- We know for a fact that Nagato has something that blocks Genjutsu


2- Kakashi isn't the real owner of Obito's sharingan either, and yet he can stop his Genjutsu as we have seen. 


> We actually don't know whether the legendary items Itachi has are made of chakra and can be absorbed. Unlikely IMO.


They seem like they are made of Chakra as they behave the same way as the Susanoo so to speak. 
I don't think they can absorb the sword if it hits tho. 



> Is it really? Itachi can evade all summons easily if he evaded Bee and Naruto.


Naruto was not really "fighting" itachi, he was simply stopping his attacks. Additionally, he can't dodge forever, and with his not so impressive chakra, even IF he was able to put all the summons down, he will lose a rather big amount of his chakra. 



> And he can put kunai in their eyes, with or without using a clone feint to get in their blindspots.


1- Itachi had knowledge of the Rinnegan and Nagato's power before he fought him, unlike Jiraiya. This a huge advantage.
2- None of Nagato's summons were targeting itachi (or even moving for that matter) as we have also seen Mu and the Misukage can't fight each others because of the ET. 
3- Kabuto forgot that itachi was even there when he was focusing on capturing Naruto and B. 

all of those were a huge advantages to itachi. On the other hand, Jiraiya did not have any help nor did he have any knowledge.
Heck, Pain was able to stop many of his attacks because he was already aware of them since Jiraiya is his master.


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

Itachi was able to hit all their eyes from their blindspots. I don't see why a sight-blocker and clone feint wouldn't allow him to do the same thing again. Sage Naruto was able to easily use clone feints to hit Paths (harder than summons.)

And like I said, if he was able to evade Killer Bee (a very fast ninja) attacking him from behind while KCM Naruto was grappling him, I can't see any of those summons ever hitting him.

I think the argument that Itachi would need to use a large amount of chakra on Animal Path is wrong for these reasons. His speed and shuriken would be enough, maybe a clone feint for good measure.


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## Bonly (May 31, 2016)

I'd say it could go either way which depends on how the battle plays out. It'll prolly be a good back and forth match with counters and feints and good plans but whoever lands one of their trump jutsu(MS or Frog Song) first is gonna come out on top imo


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## Icegaze (May 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> There are plenty of other times Preta isn't there to defend. Itachi's Susano'o pimp-hand would work any time here:
> 
> [2]
> [2]
> ...



In those situations bar the kebari senbon I agree 

Susanoo arm would work very well there . 

though unless susanoo arm grabs and crushes them they would just get up . Smacking them away the way he smacked sasuke susanoo arm won't be enough


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## Icegaze (May 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Itachi was able to hit all their eyes from their blindspots. I don't see why a sight-blocker and clone feint wouldn't allow him to do the same thing again. Sage Naruto was able to easily use clone feints to hit Paths (harder than summons.)
> 
> And like I said, if he was able to evade Killer Bee (a very fast ninja) attacking him from behind while KCM Naruto was grappling him, I can't see any of those summons ever hitting him.
> 
> I think the argument that Itachi would need to use a large amount of chakra on Animal Path is wrong for these reasons. His speed and shuriken would be enough, maybe a clone feint for good measure.



Also Remeber Jiriaya had some of his abilities restricted so naruto could show them
Mainly frog katas and frog call

Would have allowed him to beat those 3 paths without running away I feel 
Don't you ?


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

I don't think Jiraiya has sage sensing or Frog Katas.

If he gets those abilities in a retcon then he should neg-diff the 3 Paths like Naruto would.

But he didn't and didn't think he could... so barring a retcon, he's a level beneath Itachi or SM Naruto IMO.


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## Icegaze (May 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I don't think Jiraiya has sage sensing or Frog Katas.
> 
> If he gets those abilities in a retcon then he should neg-diff the 3 Paths like Naruto would.
> 
> But he didn't and didn't think he could... so barring a retcon, he's a level beneath Itachi or SM Naruto IMO.



But he has those abilities as per DB4 retcon 

Yes he hasn't shown them am well aware , seems those were after thoughts 

Baring retcon he is beneath itachi 

However seeing that we can't bar the retcon as it did happen we gotta take that into account 

Kishi tends to not think things on intro 

Minato getting SM is also quite the retcon


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## Mercurial (May 31, 2016)

Itachi wins this mid diff, high diff at worst.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sadgoob (May 31, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But he has those abilities as per DB4 retcon
> 
> Yes he hasn't shown them am well aware , seems those were after thoughts
> 
> ...



Yeah, but without Jiraiya showing them, we can just assume he has them but doesn't IC use them, y'know?


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## Icegaze (May 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Yeah, but without Jiraiya showing them, we can just assume he has them but doesn't IC use them, y'know?



But that's off one battle though
Would be like saying it's not IC for itachi to use YM or lower forms of susanoo till he dies and comes back as an ET


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## StarWanderer (May 31, 2016)

Hussain said:


> No. Knowledge plays a big factor as well.
> For example, Kabuto stating that no one alive is as strong as Hashirama. He obviously was not correct because Gai was tiers stronger than Hashirama, and he was alive.



Hashirama kills Gai before he activates 7th, or 8th Gate. Even if Gai activates 7th gate, it gets countered by Hashirama's Sage Mode durability and regeneration. Kabuto was right about Hashirama.

Also, we should take into account the fact that Gai used 8th gate and Hirudora without fully activating 7th gate few chapters *AFTER* Kabuto said that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Itachi san88 (May 31, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Hashirama kills Gai before he activates 7th, or 8th Gate. Even if Gai activates 7th gate, it gets countered by Hashirama's Sage Mode durability and regeneration. Kabuto was right about Hashirama.
> 
> Also, we should take into account the fact that Gai used 8th gate and Hirudora without fully activating 7th gate few chapters *AFTER* Kabuto said that.


I agree, since even against Juubi Madara Gai started to fight with 7 gates and is alive only thanks to Lee. What Kabuto said is not false just because 8 gates, a suicide jutsu, exists.

Is completely different from Jiraiya and Itachi situation. Itachi had many reasons to lie.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Hashirama kills Gai before he activates 7th, or 8th Gate. Even if Gai activates 7th gate, it gets countered by Hashirama's Sage Mode durability and regeneration. Kabuto was right about Hashirama.
> 
> Also, we should take into account the fact that Gai used 8th gate and Hirudora without fully activating 7th gate few chapters *AFTER* Kabuto said that.


Don't be stupid. Even Asspulldara couldn't pull that off, but the MUCH weaker fodderama, will do? 

And no, Kabuto was not right. Whether you like it or not, Gai is stronger than Hashirama.


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## StarWanderer (Jun 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Don't be stupid. Even Asspulldara couldn't pull that off, but the MUCH weaker fodderama, will do?
> 
> And no, Kabuto was not right. Whether you like it or not, Gai is stronger than Hashirama.



Edo Madara made him bleed.

And Juubidara let him use the Gates, although he could simply speedblitz the sh*t out of him before he activates The Gates.

8th Gate takes too long to activate, Hirudora gets countered by Hashirama's mokuton, durable enough to stop Bijuudama, fully activated 7th Gate wont do sh*t to Hashirama after he activates Sage Mode. 

FTW says hello. 

Myojinmon says hello. 

And, finally, Bringer of Darkness (a long-ranged genjutsu, by the way, which seems to not require eye-to-eye contact) says hello. Gai cant counter it, he gets blinded by it and than Hashirama proceeds to stomp. 

Kabuto was right about him. The statement is canon.

By the way, it's amusing how someone who hates "feat-whores", as you call that type of debaters, someone who loves to use statements in both manga and Databook as proofs, even those which contradict manga feats, suddenly sh*ts on manga statement which contradicts his fanboyism and, seemingly for him (and probably *only* for him), manga feats.

Reactions: Winner 2 | Dislike 1


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2016)

I won't bother with reading your nonsense, star. 
Gai is stronger, end of discussion.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## StarWanderer (Jun 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I won't bother with reading your nonsense, star.
> Gai is stronger, end of discussion.



Gai is weaker than Hashirama, end of discussion.


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## Trojan (Jun 1, 2016)

Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But that's off one battle though
> Would be like saying it's not IC for itachi to use YM or lower forms of susanoo till he dies and comes back as an ET



We basically agree. If you retroactively give Jiraiya Frog Katas and Sage Sensing (big reflex boost,) then he's much more on Itachi's level. I would agree with that. I just think it's important to note that the Jiraiya that fought Pain was much weaker than that and that the "retconned Jiraiya" is a character that never existed _until he was already dead in the manga._


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## StarWanderer (Jun 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night.



I'll sleep good, realy good, knowing that i made you concede again.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> We basically agree. If you retroactively give Jiraiya Frog Katas and Sage Sensing (big reflex boost,) then he's much more on Itachi's level. I would agree with that. I just think it's important to note that the Jiraiya that fought Pain was much weaker than that and that the "retconned Jiraiya" is a character that never existed _until he was already dead in the manga._



Yes we agree retcon Jiriaya can essentially be classed as this healthy or ET itachi we saw who performed much better than he did in life

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yes we agree retcon Jiriaya can essentially be classed as this healthy or ET itachi we saw who performed much better than he did in life




But isn't it strange that he was "retcon" immediately afterwards?  It's not like Naruto's SM appeared years after Jiraiya's death or that Kishi had a change of mind about SM's powers in such short time. I find that highly unlikely.

Itachi's "healthy" state is an entirely different matter because we received an explicit statement by 2 different characters who has seen Itachi perform. Jiraiya did not receive such statement from any other characters about his SM, except that Naruto had "surpassed" Jiraiya in SM. If Jiraiya does indeed have all the powers that Naruto has with his SM, then it would make no sense for Naruto to surpass Jiraiya at all, when Jiraiya wasn't called a perfect sage.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> But isn't it strange that he was "retcon" immediately afterwards?  It's not like Naruto's SM appeared years after Jiraiya's death or that Kishi had a change of mind about SM's powers in such short time. I find that highly unlikely.
> 
> Itachi's "healthy" state is an entirely different matter because we received an explicit statement by 2 different characters who has seen Itachi perform. Jiraiya did not receive such statement from any other characters about his SM, except that Naruto had "surpassed" Jiraiya in SM. If Jiraiya does indeed have all the powers that Naruto has with his SM, then it would make no sense for Naruto to surpass Jiraiya at all, when Jiraiya wasn't called a perfect sage.



The only person that saw Jiriaya fight was nagato who had no knowledge of SM

Can't comment on the expected abilities of a Jutsu you don't know 

As for comments nagato did say Jiriaya could have won 

If he had knowledge .


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 2, 2016)

Itachi is faster, but not enough to blitz. Jiraiya has a 4.5 in speed, and sensing through his barrier. Itachi can't catch him off guard. And Jiraiya's taijutsu is just as good as Itachi's is, plus he has ninjutsu like Hari Jizo to back him up in CQC.

Plus, Jiraiya can use Bunshin, so Itachi's Bunshin can't provide him with any effective distractions either.

But by Jiraiya's own admission, genjutsu was never his strong point. He would likely struggle to see through all of Itachi's illusions. Knowing that, though, he'd surely summon Fukasaku and Shima to break him out of illusions when it appears as though he's been caught. And those two are sensors, so they should be able to discern the change in his chakra levels even if Jiraiya himself can't. 

The problem is that all Jiraiya can really do is take defensive measures, and offensively he's very limited on what he can do to Itachi. He isn't fast enough to land hits without being caught in a genjutsu first, and he can't get past Susano'o in one hit, even if he did reach Sage Mode.

If Itachi catches Jiraiya in a Tsukuyomi its all over. He isn't capable of recovering from the damage. Jiraiya also dies if he's hit by Amaterasu, which in my opinion, he will be. He does have a Fire Sealing technique, but it takes too long, and Itachi can Totsuka seal him before he could finish.

Itachi can also Totsuka seal Bunta, Gamahiro, or any other toads Jiraiya summons. If Yomi Numa could be used, this might not be a problem, as Jiraiya could sink Susano'o, but it's banned. 

Anyway, MS abilities are too much for Jiraiya, so he dies.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Jun 2, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Itachi is faster, but not enough to blitz. Jiraiya has a 4.5 in speed, and sensing through his barrier. Itachi can't catch him off guard. And Jiraiya's taijutsu is just as good as Itachi's is, plus he has ninjutsu like Hari Jizo to back him up in CQC.
> 
> Plus, Jiraiya can use Bunshin, so Itachi's Bunshin can't provide him with any effective distractions either.
> 
> ...




Yomi Numa gets countered by Katon.   Fire + Mud = Hard piece of dirt.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ishmael (Jun 2, 2016)

Matty said:


> Pein shouldn't even be brought up.
> 
> Idk why this is always such a shitshow but to me it is 50/50 leaning towards Itachi a bit because of hax. By no means is this even a mid did fight for either. Whoever wins is gonna go through some shit



I'm just looking in this thread and I see that nagato is being brought up a lot


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 2, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Yomi Numa gets countered by Katon.   Fire + Mud = Hard piece of dirt.



Jiraiya uses a Suiton. GG.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Jiraiya uses a Suiton. GG.



To be honest, Itachi has the ability to preempt his seals and read his intentions as Kabuto has stated. What stops him from preempting Yomi Numa and simply jumping away? Highly doubt one jutsu would be enough to subdue Itachi when he could effortlessly handle Nagato's jutsu and react to all of Kabuto's techniques.


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## Ishmael (Jun 2, 2016)

Effortlessly handle....hmm


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Have you seen a sage powered attack breach susanoo ?
> Doubt that so silly question
> 
> All we know is V3 shat on Odama rasengan
> ...



So you have no proof that a Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan wouldn't break through Susanoo? Naruto's Oodama Rasengan looked like it was getting through Madara's Susanoo. 

V4 is not twice as big, nor does not have armor.



Icegaze said:


> @UltimateDeadpool
> Itachi avoids swamp and whatever else technique
> Seeing that they are easier to avoid by hype and feats
> 
> ...



How does Itachi avoid the ground beneath his feat?



Equilibrium139 said:


> Itachi reacted to lightning, pathetic jutsu like those have no bearing against an opponent of this caliber. Besides, that shit is restricted for some reason.



Yet Itachi wasn't faster than Naruto, Bee, or Kabuto. Everyone must be faster than lightning 



Icegaze said:


> V3 shat on cho Odama
> The addition of senjutsu chakra ain't going to be breaching V4 which is twice the size
> 
> When cho Odama didn't even put the slightest crack in it



Do you have more proof besides your opinion?



Icegaze said:


> Itachi does have jutsu advantages as does Jiriaya I think both parties need to realise this
> 
> Jiriaya jutsu advantages
> 
> ...



For Jiraiya, you forgot:

- Underworld Swamp
- Flattened Silhouette Manipulation
- Food Cart Destroyer
- Frog Conversion
- Toad Gourd Prison
- Wild Lion's Mane
- Chou Oodama Rasengan
- Deep Fryer
- War of Words Decapitation
- War of Words Binding


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## Saru (Jun 2, 2016)

Godaime laid things out really well IMO. Itachi would most likely win, but it would by no means by a walk in the park. Jiraiya has no hard counter for Amaterasu, and his only way of dealing with Tsukuyomi is by fighting at long-range and avoiding eye contact, which limits Jiraiya's options. I don't think Itachi would be able to nail Jiraiya with Totsuka in CQC, personally, although I don't believe the sword is slow as some claim. Susano'o is only needed for defensive purposes here anyway, and Itachi can likely block anything coming his way with lower forms of Susano'o. Kage Bunshin alone is simply not a good enough counter to Itachi's abilities IMO, so Itachi should win with moderate to high difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> So you have no proof that a Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan wouldn't break through Susanoo? Naruto's Oodama Rasengan looked like it was getting through Madara's Susanoo.
> 
> V4 is not twice as big, nor does not have armor.
> 
> ...



and you have no proof it can so essentially baseless claim. figures

yet madara Susanoo didn't have the slightest crack on it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2016)

Naruto's Oodama Rasengan never detonated so Madara's Susano'o never had to receive the brunt force of the attack, but I have no doubt that Itachi's Susano'o can tank it or deflect Jiraiya away before the Rasengan detonates.


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Naruto's Oodama Rasengan never detonated so Madara's Susano'o never had to receive the brunt force of the attack, but I have no doubt that Itachi's Susano'o can tank it or deflect Jiraiya away before the Rasengan detonates.



odama rasengan aint doing shit. it doesn't have the feats for it at all.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 2, 2016)

@UltimateDeadpool 
 V4 Susanoo has armour and is certainly twice the size at the least. feel free to read the chapter itachi totsuka nagato. compare that Susanoo i.e V4, to the one who threw YM the chapter before


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> odama rasengan aint doing shit. it doesn't have the feats for it at all.



 I agree. Susano'o still tanks regardless of whether it explodes or not.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 2, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Yet Itachi wasn't faster than Naruto, Bee, or Kabuto. Everyone must be faster than lightning


Reacting to lightning doesn't mean that you're faster than it. It simply means that he was able to react to it mentally and activate his Susanoo in time. Therefore, reacting to a much weaker, slower jutsu when he's healthy will be too easy.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 2, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> and you have no proof it can so essentially baseless claim. figures
> 
> yet madara Susanoo didn't have the slightest crack on it.



I do have a basis; Kabuto's Sage-powered Giant Waterfall completely destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo and slammed Sasuke against the cave wall.

Susanoo also isn't invincible and can be damaged by attacks weaker than Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan. Danzo sliced a hole in it's back with his Seral Vacuum Wave, Mei melted it with her Skilled Mist, Ei broke it with brute force and he's weaker than a Sage, Tsunade cut Susanoo's sword with her Chakra Scalpel, etc.

You have no proof that it tanks a Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan. In fact, Madara's Susanoo does look like it was getting shredded by Naruto's normal Chou Oodama Rasengan based on that energy flickering away:





Icegaze said:


> @UltimateDeadpool
> V4 Susanoo has armour and is certainly twice the size at the least. feel free to read the chapter itachi totsuka nagato. compare that Susanoo i.e V4, to the one who threw YM the chapter before



That "armor" looks like bandages. It's all made out of chakra anyway; the bones, skin, weapons, etc.

It's certainly not twice the size. Just look at Susanoo's head in these pics, it's always about as big as Itachi's entire body:


*Spoiler*: __ 









Susanoo doesn't get bigger... unless it's Perfect Susanoo...



Equilibrium139 said:


> Reacting to lightning doesn't mean that you're faster than it. It simply means that he was able to react to it mentally and activate his Susanoo in time. Therefore, reacting to a much weaker, slower jutsu when he's healthy will be too easy.



Because being handicap makes your mind feeble?

It also helped that Kirin just loomed there while Sasuke yapped away, waiting to strike.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 2, 2016)

LoL at the tards thinking that Jiraiya or Itachi would beat the other with ease. Who ever wins is going to do with extreme difficulty 

But in my opinion Itachi > = Jiraiya
60/40 ?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 2, 2016)

Complete_Ownage said:


> LoL at the tards thinking that Jiraiya or Itachi would beat the other with ease.



All it take is one good opportunity to use a jutsu to make it look easy. Itachi's pretty good at using his devastating jutsu with good opportunities e.g. landing Totsuka through a dust cloud when it might not have landed otherwise. SM Jiraiya is more at risk against sneaky controlling genjutsu than most characters because of his fusion with two super-strong entities with their own sets of eyeballs.

The only time Itachi's used his OHKO techniques ineffectively was when he was _trying_ to use them ineffectively against Sasuke. I don't think he'd be wasting shots of Amaterasu on Jiraiya like people seem to think he would. Given that Itachi is portrayed as more perceptive and clever than Jiraiya, I'd bet on him landing those jutsu effectively (controlling genjutsu, Amaterasu, Totsuka) rather than the counterargument of Jiraiya repeatedly evading these techniques and wearing Itachi down.

We also see from his fights with Nagato and Kabuto that he doesn't maintain Susano'o and allow it to drain him. He stops using it when he doesn't have an immediate need for it, and pulls it up for short periods of time when he does. He'd be much harder to tire out than I think a lot of people give him credit for. I can't see any ninja, let alone Jiraiya, repeatedly tricking Itachi into wasting uses of taxing MS jutsu. The ninja that beat Itachi in my opinion are the ones that can straight overpower him, because repeatedly outsmarting him in that way just doesn't seem realistic given his battle intellect hype.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Jun 2, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> So you have no proof that a Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan wouldn't break through Susanoo? Naruto's Oodama Rasengan looked like it was getting through Madara's Susanoo.
> 
> V4 is not twice as big, nor does not have armor.
> 
> ...





It was shedding through a little bit....Then it got wrecked.


V4 is much bigger and it has armour.

Itachi can jump to a different ground? 

Itachi doesn't have to be faster than those people....these guys are top-tiers anyway. Itachi just has to be able to react and feint them. That's enough.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I do have a basis; Kabuto's Sage-powered Giant Waterfall completely destroyed Sasuke's Susanoo and slammed Sasuke against the cave wall.
> 
> Susanoo also isn't invincible and can be damaged by attacks weaker than Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan. Danzo sliced a hole in it's back with his Seral Vacuum Wave, Mei melted it with her Skilled Mist, Ei broke it with brute force and he's weaker than a Sage, Tsunade cut Susanoo's sword with her Chakra Scalpel, etc.
> 
> ...



Kabuto Jutsu breached V1 susanoo
We are discussing V4 here
Your comparison is as foolish as me comparing rasengan to cho odama rasengan quite literally

Danzo punched a hole in V3 . The same V3 tanked cho odama rasengan on panel already . What's your point ?

Again we discussing V4



Your an idiot ! We discussing V4 none of the things you mentioned have anything to do with V4. Those feats are from V1 or V3




Ypu think those susanoo are the same size as this ???

Kakashi needed some time

Seriously!!! Compare itachi in that scan to his susanoo then do the same for the scans you provided 

I give up . Then again I am arguing with someone who doesn't know there are different levels of susanoo


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Notice here V3 shits on cho odama

Kakashi needed some time
That's the scan right after odama hits rib cage , I.e V1 susanoo the lowest form of susanoo

Yet somehow clowns thinking adding senjutsu will
Enable it to breach 3 levels above


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 3, 2016)

Another thing to keep in mind is that Jiraiya almost completely abandoned not only ninjsutsu because one of the paths could absorb it, but also taijutsu because of their shared vision. Already, against only three Paths he is limited to only a third of this arsenal, which in reality is alot less than a third because he has literally no genjutsu. For Itachi on the other hand, shared vision was not a big problem as we saw against Nagato, a much superior version of the 6 paths combined. This shows that his Taijutsu isn't completely useless, and by using his smarts he can exploit a lot of the Path's weaknesses just like Naruto did with clones or LOS blockers. Also, Ninjutsu remains an option for Itachi as well, as he was also able to use Susanoo as well as Amaterasu against Nagato. It will work on all Paths except for Deva as that was also shown in Itachi v Nagato. And on top of all that, he still has Genjutsu which no one comes close to his level in that regard. In conclusion, Itachi is a better suited fighter against Pain than Jiraiya is. Jiraiya can beat restricted Pain, but that doesn't put him above Itachi in any way. Itachi can do just the same, but even more efficiently.


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## Equilibrium139 (Jun 3, 2016)

Also, did Kabuto turn off Nagato's sensing the whole fight or just after CT?


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 3, 2016)

QUOTE="Icegaze, post: 55686942, member: 83862"]Kabuto Jutsu breached V1 susanoo
We are discussing V4 here
Your comparison is as foolish as me comparing rasengan to cho odama rasengan quite literally

Danzo punched a hole in V3 . The same V3 tanked cho odama rasengan on panel already . What's your point ?

Again we discussing V4



Your an idiot ! We discussing V4 none of the things you mentioned have anything to do with V4. Those feats are from V1 or V3




Ypu think those susanoo are the same size as this ???

Kakashi needed some time

Seriously!!! Compare itachi in that scan to his susanoo then do the same for the scans you provided

I give up . Then again I am arguing with someone who doesn't know there are different levels of susanoo[/QUOTE]

Madara used Susanoo ribcage to block Chou Oodama Rasengan, it never hit V3 Susanoo.

You are comparing Chou Oodama Rasengan to Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan, so you may as well be comparing it to Rasengan.

I am pointing out the inconsistencies. As I said, weaker attacks have busted through other stages of Susanoo. 

Your argument also seems to be that, since we never saw V4 hit, it cannot be damaged?

V4 Susanoo doesn't shrink when it dissipates, so V4's wrappings seem to be fluff.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Keep insulting me, I'm sure it makes you look better


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> QUOTE="Icegaze, post: 55686942, member: 83862"]Kabuto Jutsu breached V1 susanoo
> We are discussing V4 here
> Your comparison is as foolish as me comparing rasengan to cho odama rasengan quite literally
> 
> ...



Madara used Susanoo ribcage to block Chou Oodama Rasengan, it never hit V3 Susanoo.

You are comparing Chou Oodama Rasengan to Sage Chou Oodama Rasengan, so you may as well be comparing it to Rasengan.

I am pointing out the inconsistencies. As I said, weaker attacks have busted through other stages of Susanoo.

Your argument also seems to be that, since we never saw V4 hit, it cannot be damaged?

V4 Susanoo doesn't shrink when it dissipates, so V4's wrappings seem to be fluff.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Keep insulting me, I'm sure it makes you look better [/QUOTE]


Madara went V3 after cho odama hit his rib cage in order to utterly troll the attack
Or what do you think happened to the rasengan 



Susanoo can be damaged but saying an attack damaged rib cage therefore Senjutsu cho odama can damage V4 on that basis is pure stupidity 

I never said it can't be smashed 

I said cho odama has zero fears to suggest it can do any harm to V4. 

Attempt understanding that first before replying . I haven't insulted you at all . Calling you an idiot based on your post is justified 

Water damaged rib cage susanoo therefore rasengan would damage V4 . 


So what feats does this senpo cho odama have to breach V4 again ?

I'll wait


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 3, 2016)

@Icegaze

Yeah, Madara went V3 after Naruto hit him with Chou Oodama Rasengan. Thank you for agreeing with me.

What feats does V4 have that makes you think that it can tank a Sage-powered Chou Oodama Rasengan? I'll wait.

P.S. Calling someone an idiot is an insult and your opinion doesn't make it a fact.


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## Icegaze (Jun 3, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> Yeah, Madara went V3 after Naruto hit him with Chou Oodama Rasengan. Thank you for agreeing with me.
> 
> ...



.  therefore V3 would have come in contact with it. or did the rasengan just disappear. that makes ur argument worse just so you know. am saying V3 was required to troll it.

what your saying is rib cage was enough to do that. if u think V3 magically came after rasegan had exploded and been tanked by V1.

lol rib cage its lowest version tanked Cho odama rasengan already. so canon on my side here, weakest Susanoo can tank cho odama . good luck getting anyone to believe adding senjutus is going to allow it to breach 3 levels above it.

your argument is weak

rib cage already on panel was enough to stop cho odama.  seriously how would adding senjutsu allow it to breach 3 levels up

or are u saying Susanoo is just as durable and the level it is at does not matter?

I need to get your confusion here


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