# Rank the Narutoverse transcendants



## Ersa (Jan 30, 2015)

Let's have some fun ranking this clusterfuck of stupidly powerful characters that Kishimoto threw at us.

So these characters
- Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
- Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
- Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
- Obito Uchiha (Juubi)
- Gai
- Rikudo Kakashi
- Rikudo Naruto
- Healthy Itachi Uchiha
- Rikudo Sasuke
- Toneri Ōtsutsuki

Have fun.

ck


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## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Kaguya teleports most of them to the acid dimension then kills the rest assuming they dont team up against her kakashi goes intangible and watches the clusterfuck while eating popcorn


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## Deer Lord (Jan 30, 2015)

lol healthy itachi

IMO its about like this:

Prime Kaguya
JJ Hagoromo
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Prime Juubi
Hagoromo/Hamura
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3-Eyed madz/Bijuu-Sussano sasuke/Ashura naruto
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RSM nardo
1-Eyed Madz
Rinnegan sauce
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DMS kakashi
8th gate gai
Juubito



haven't seen the movie so no idea where to place toneri


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## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

1- Kaguya
2- Hago
3- Naruto
4- Madara
5- Sasuke
6- Toneri
7- Obito
8- Gai.
9- Kakashi
10- itachi.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 30, 2015)

Itachi

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Madara
Naruto\Sasuke(Kaguya-fight)
Kakashi\Gai\Obito

No idea about Toneri


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## Raiken (Jan 30, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Let's have some fun ranking this clusterfuck of stupidly powerful characters that Kishimoto threw at us.
> 
> So these characters
> - Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
> ...


1: Kaguya Otsutsuki
2: Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
3: Hagoromo Otsutsuki
4: Rikudou Naruto
5: Obito Uchiha (Juubi)
6: Rikudou Sasuke
7: Gai
8: Rikudou Kakashi
9: Tonerei Otsutsuki


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## Altair21 (Jan 30, 2015)

1. Kaguya
2. Hagoromo
3. Madara
4. Naruto
5. Sasuke
6. Tonrei
7. Gai
8. Kakashi
9. Obito


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## Mercurial (Jan 30, 2015)

0)  Healthy Itachi Uchiha

- gap -

1) Kaguya Otsutsuki
2) Hagoromo Otsutsuki
3) DMS Rikudo Kakashi
4) Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
5) Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto
6) Rikudo Sasuke
7) 8th Gate Gai
8) Obito Uchiha (Juubi)
9) Toneri Otsutsuki
10) Hamura
11) Ashura
12) Indra


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## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

I believe DMS Kakashi is actually stronger than Kaguya.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 30, 2015)

As immensely powerful as Healthy Itachi clearly is, I think Iruka deserves 1st place with Prime Hiruzen as a close 2nd. 

So why are they missing in said list? Unless of course it is so obvious that they are beyond mere transcendants^^


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## Mercurial (Jan 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I believe DMS Kakashi is actually stronger than Kaguya.



You have a point.


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## Altair21 (Jan 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> 0)  Healthy Itachi Uchiha
> 
> - gap -
> 
> ...







Arles Celes said:


> As immensely powerful as Healthy Itachi clearly is, I think Iruka deserves 1st place with Prime Hiruzen as a close 2nd.
> 
> So why are they missing in said list? Unless of course it is so obvious that they are beyond mere transcendants^^



Iruka is the true king.


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## Bonly (Jan 30, 2015)

Itachi 

Kaguya

Sage

Madara

Naruto/Sasuke

Obito

Kakashi\Gai

Itachi


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## ARGUS (Jan 30, 2015)

0. Healthy Itachi 


1. Kaguya 

2. Hagoromo 

3. Hamura 
4. Madara
5. Naruto 
6. Sasuke 

7. Toneri 
8. Ashura 
9. Indra
10. DMS Kakashi 
11. Juubito 
12. 8th gate guy


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## Garcher (Jan 30, 2015)

0. Itachi








1. Madara
2. Rest

Itachi strongest by far, second is Madara because he is the most experienced fighter. Brats like Naruto and Sasuke and tree loving monks like Hagoromo can't keep up with him


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## Trojan (Jan 30, 2015)

Minato solos all of them except his child.


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## sabre320 (Jan 30, 2015)

Kaguya
 Hago
 Hamura
 Naruto
 Madara-Sasuke- Kakashi
 Obito
 Gai.
 itachi. lol

Dont know about toneri havent watched the movie but if dudes a moon buster then damn...


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## Ghost (Jan 30, 2015)

Itachi

Kaguya

Hagoromo
JJ Madz
VotE 2.0 Naruto
VotE 2.0 Sasuke

JJ Obito
Guy
Kakashi


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## Hachibi (Jan 30, 2015)

0)Itachi
1)Kaguya
2/3)Naruto/Sasuke
4)Hagoromo
5)Juudara with two eyes
6)DMS Kakashi
7)Toneri
8)Gai
9)Juubito

6 and 7 are interchangable, so are 8 and 9.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 30, 2015)

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Madara
Hamura
Naruto/Sasuke
Toneri
Obito
Kakashi
Gai
Indra/Ashura

Have to admit I don't know how to accurately rank Toneri.


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## Kai (Jan 30, 2015)

Kaguya Otsutsuki
Hagoromo Otsutsuki
Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
Rikudo Naruto
Rikudo Sasuke
Toneri Otsutsuki
Obito Uchiha (Juubi)
Rikudo Kakashi
Gai
Healthy Itachi


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## Hachibi (Jan 30, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Kaguya
> Hagoromo
> Madara
> Hamura
> ...



That's because dude got beaten by a punch form base Naruto when before he could fight equally with 100% BSM Naruto.

That consistency.


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## Zuhaitz (Jan 30, 2015)

Kaguya Ootsuki 

Hogoromo Ootsuki (as jinchuuriki)
Hamura Ootsuki (as jinchuuriki)
Madara Uchiha (as jinchuuriki with 3 eyes)

Obito Uchiha (as jinchuuriki)
Toneri Ootsuki (Tenseigan)
Sasuke Uchiha (with chakra of all the Bijuus)
Naruto Uzumaki (with all the natural energy on earth)

Kakashi Hatake (with rikudo chakra and 2 MSs)
Gai (8 gates)
Indra 
Ashura


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## Blu-ray (Jan 30, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> That's because dude got beaten by a punch form base Naruto when before he could fight equally with 100% BSM Naruto.
> 
> That consistency.



Didn't Naruto channel all of his chakra into his fist? His hand was glowing yellow and he went right back into BSM after the punch. Did the same thing when the deflected the laser beam.


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## Hachibi (Jan 30, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Didn't Naruto channel all of his chakra into his fist? His hand was glowing yellow and he went right back into BSM after the punch. Did the same thing when the deflected the laser beam.



Even then, the fist's power should have dropped after destroying the laser beam.


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## Rindaman (Jan 31, 2015)

Why the hell are people putting Juubidara over Naruto and Sauce when they thrashed him?


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Kaguya
> Hagoromo
> Madara
> Hamura
> ...


Indra and Ashura are basically a slightly weaker version of RSM naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke, 
they would clown the likes of Obito, Kakashi and Guy 

Hamura should be above Madara here, 


> Have to admit I don't know how to accurately rank Toneri.


You have rated him correctly, 



Hachibi said:


> 0)Itachi
> 1)Kaguya
> *2/3)Naruto/Sasuke*
> 4)Hagoromo
> ...


Why the hell are naruto and sasuke above hagoromo, when they each recieved only half of his power, 
and that hagoromo was non jin, 
so a prime jin hagoromo turns them into a smear on the ground 



Raikiri19 said:


> 0)  Healthy Itachi Uchiha
> 
> - gap -
> 
> ...



Hamura = Non Jin Hagoromo, 
he would absolutely clown over half of the people that you have put above him, and that obviously includes DMS Kakashi as well, 

Kakashi needs to move atleast 4 numbers doown, you are overrating him severely



			
				Kai said:
			
		

> Kaguya Otsutsuki
> Hagoromo Otsutsuki
> Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
> Rikudo Naruto
> ...


DMS Kakashi > Juubito 
apart from that, theres nothing wroong with your list


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 31, 2015)

I can honestly see RSM Naruto matching Rikudou Sennin considering RSM Naruto matched Sasuke using all of the Bijuu which reminded Yang Kurama of Rikudou Sennin's power.

 If that means anything at all ....


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *I can honestly see RSM Naruto matching Rikudou Sennin* considering RSM Naruto matched Sasuke using all of the Bijuu which reminded Yang Kurama of Rikudou Sennin's power.
> 
> If that means anything at all ....



No, he gets clowned by hagoromo, 
non jin hagoromos yang half = RSM naruto 
him matching the bijuu is nothing special when BM naruto alone smacked around the bijuu, 
and RT madara took them out within a matter of minutes which includdded BM Naruto himself

add the extra nature energy and he would be lucky to even beat non jin hagoromo, 
though that is still very unlikely when it still doesnt compensate for the gap in power that the rinnegan and hagoromos yin half could offer  

give hagoromo the juubi, and he turns naruto into a smear on the ground


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> No, he gets clowned by hagoromo,
> non jin hagoromos yang half = RSM naruto
> him matching the bijuu is nothing special when BM naruto alone smacked around the bijuu,
> and RT madara took them out within a matter of minutes which includdded BM Naruto himself
> ...



 Link removed

 Which Naruto matched. But again, that at least explains that Naruto can gather enough energy to rival Hagoromo. In an actual match, I'll admit, Naruto definitely loses.


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## Deer Lord (Jan 31, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> Why the hell are people putting Juubidara over Naruto and Sauce when they thrashed him?


Because they thrashed him as a team and not individually...?



ARGUS said:


> Indra and Ashura are basically a slightly weaker version of RSM naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke,
> they would clown the likes of Obito, Kakashi and Guy


We don't actually know anything about indra and ashura's power.
We had like, 1 panel of them fighting and thats it.

They could be anywhere from VOTE Madara/Hashirama level to Post Rikudo Nardo/Sauce level.


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## Hachibi (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Why the hell are naruto and sasuke above hagoromo, when they each recieved only half of his power,
> and that hagoromo was non jin,
> so a prime jin hagoromo turns them into a smear on the ground



Because Sasuke was stated to be Rikudo Sennin Level by Yin Kurama and Naruto stalemated him?

Also they rpogressed by the time of the Epilogue.

And lol'd at Hagoromo not being a jin anymore when he could float and had Gudodama. He still had Juubi chakra.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jan 31, 2015)

I don't think Sasuke is above the Sage as well, not only he misses half of Yang chakra but he lacks a full pair of Rinnegan.


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> We don't actually know anything about indra and ashura's power.
> We had like, 1 panel of them fighting and thats it.
> 
> *They could be anywhere from VOTE Madara/Hashirama level to Post Rikudo Nardo/Sauce leve*l.


What we do know is that they inherited some portion of hagoromos power, 
indra had rikudo PS, and was the first user of the EMS, whilst ashura had six path senjutsu, as shown how he has TSB, and the avatar to match rikudo PS, 

they are basically a slightly weaker version of Rikudo naruto and sasuke,
VOTE madara and hashirama are nothing, and are atleast 4 tiers below them
unless you think that devolved ancestors > sons who inherited power directly from the man 

thats why they'll clown the likes of Guy, and DMS Kakashi 



Hachibi said:


> Because Sasuke was stated to be Rikudo Sennin Level by Yin Kurama and Naruto stalemated him?


Lol death bed hagoromo created the fkn moon, sasuke has nothing in his arsenal to combat that so he dies 

and No, he was only stated to be rikudos level based on how he was using the bijuu, 
do you seriously think that Yin Sasuke w/Bijuu > Hagoromo, 
where the latter has the full yang half, has a much stronger rinnegan, much stronger and larger reserves of chakra, and to top it off, the fkn juubi, 


> Also they rpogressed by the time of the Epilogue.


They still get raped by him, even if they fight him together, 



> And lol'd at Hagoromo not being a jin anymore when he could float and had Gudodama. He still had Juubi chakra.



No, you need six paths senjutsu to awaken TSB, which was what enabled him to fly  
non jin hagoromo already had that, heck even Ashura and Hamura had that, both oof whom he didnt have the  juubi or any kind of bijuu, 

so non jin hagoromo gave naruto and sasuke his powers, 
him being in his exact state when he died, as well as the fact that the juubi was already within madara when he was around is a clear indication that it was non jin hagoromo,

so in conclusion, 
non Jin hagoromo > naruto and sasuke combined, if they lack ashura avatar and bijuu respectively,

jin hagoromo >>> non jin hagoromo > naruto w/ashura avatar 
jin hagoromo >>> non jin hagoromo > saasuke w/bijuu


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Link removed
> 
> Which Naruto matched. But again, that at least explains that Naruto can gather enough energy to rival Hagoromo. In an actual match, I'll admit, Naruto definitely loses.



that was a mis translation, 
viz scan actually states that kurama was actuallly referring to hagoromos usage of the bijuu
no way in hell coould sasuke even match someone who has twice as much power as him, and his yin half is much better and stronger than his 

hell whats worse is that kurama never even saw hagoromo in combat, 
so that alone contradicts the translation


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## Hachibi (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol death bed hagoromo created the fkn moon, sasuke has nothing in his arsenal to combat that so he dies



Which Toneri cutted in half, the same guy Naruto defeated and Sasuke isn't far off Naruto.



> and No, he was only stated to be rikudos level based on how he was using the bijuu,
> do you seriously think that Yin Sasuke w/Bijuu > Hagoromo,
> where the latter has the full yang half, has a much stronger rinnegan, much stronger and larger reserves of chakra, and to top it off, the fkn juubi,



Because that somehow helped Madara.



> They still get raped by him, even if they fight him together,



You clearly didn't see The Last then.



> No, you need six paths senjutsu to awaken TSB, which was what enabled him to fly
> non jin hagoromo already had that, heck even Ashura and Hamura had that, both oof whom he didnt have the  juubi or any kind of bijuu,



How do you know they weren't related to any Bijuus? Hell, do you know if Asura's Black Ball are in fact TSB?



> so non jin hagoromo gave naruto and sasuke his powers,
> him being in his exact state when he died, as well as the fact that the juubi was already within madara when he was around is a clear indication that it was non jin hagoromo,



And Naruto had part of the 9 Bijuus when Madara was near-full JJ.



> so in conclusion,
> non Jin hagoromo > naruto and sasuke combined, if they lack ashura avatar and bijuu respectively,



Considering the former blitzed Kaguya without Avatar, lolno.



> jin hagoromo >>> non jin hagoromo > naruto w/ashura avatar
> jin hagoromo >>> non jin hagoromo > saasuke w/bijuu



Naruto can use the Planet to power himself, which Sasuke stalemated with Indra's Arrow.


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## Patrick (Jan 31, 2015)

1. Kaguya
2. Sharinnegan Madara
3. EoS Naruto
4. EoS Sasuke
5. DMS Kakashi
6. 8th Gate Gai
7. Juubito
8. Itachi

Only ranking characters we've actually seen fighting in the manga. So no Hagoromo, Hamura, Indra, Ashura or Toneri but they would definitely all be placed between 2-7


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## LostSelf (Jan 31, 2015)

1-Gai

I've never seen the rest.


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## Altair21 (Jan 31, 2015)

Rindaman said:


> Why the hell are people putting Juubidara over Naruto and Sauce when they thrashed him?



It depends on which version of Juubi Madara you're talking about. It was made pretty clear that both of them were above the version that fought Guy. Even after he absorbed the tree I'd say both were still individually above him. Now after he got back his 2nd rinnegan it was clear both Naruto and Sasuke were going to be needed to take him down. That became even more apparent after he cast Infinite Tsukuyomi and got his 3rd rinnegan.


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## Kai (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> DMS Kakashi > Juubito
> apart from that, theres nothing wroong with your list


Only if Kakashi received Obito's full power of the Six Paths would he be stronger. Not his eyes and leftovers of Six Paths chakra on a timer.

I also don't doubt Juubito added to the team of Naruto and Sasuke would land a hit on Kaguya considering Obito was syncing with her Amenominaka portals and intercepting her ash bones.


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Which Toneri cutted in half, the same guy Naruto defeated and Sasuke isn't far off Naruto.


Cutting the moon =/= making it 



> Because that somehow helped Madara.


Concession accepted. Because you have literally not outdrew anything nor have you even replied to what I said 



> You clearly didn't see The Last then.


Yeah I haven't seen it 
No one needs to see the last to come to a conclusion that hagoromo > his halves 



> How do you know they weren't related to any Bijuus? Hell, do you know if Asura's Black Ball are in fact TSB?


Because data book stated that you need six paths senjutsu to have TSB 
NOT the juubi. This also explains how Hamura has the TSB as well
Ashura didn't have any bijuu. His avatar didn't resemble any bijuu. Nor was it ever stated that he had bijuu. His avatar was just a a result of his chakra blooming 




> And Naruto had part of the 9 Bijuus when Madara was near-full JJ.


Already addressed 
Naruto and madara had TSB thanks to both having Rikudo senjutsu not the juubi

Becoming a Jin automatically grants you Rikudo senjutsu hence why the Jins have TSB 



> Considering the former blitzed Kaguya without Avatar, lolno.


Except hagoromo would have the same thing, the only difference is that it'll be much better 



> Naruto can use the Planet to power himself, which Sasuke stalemated with Indra's Arrow.


Nowhere was it stated that naruto absorbed the entire planets nature energy 
Hell naruto couldn't even measure juubis nature energy and even that is nowhere near a planets 

This whole planet thing was made up by sasuke fanboys to make him sound much stronger 
It's nothing but a mere fallacy 

Kurama only absorbed all the an ature bereft that was available to him. Doesn't mean that it was all there was, Big Dfference 

Naruto and sasuke each got only half of Hagoromos power 
Yet you have the nerve to say that half of Hagoromos power > all of it


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## ARGUS (Jan 31, 2015)

Kai said:


> Only if Kakashi received Obito's full power of the Six Paths would he be stronger. Not his eyes and leftovers of Six Paths chakra on a timer.
> 
> I also don't doubt Juubito added to the team of Naruto and Sasuke would land a hit on Kaguya considering Obito was syncing with her Amenominaka portals and intercepting her ash bones.



Except kakashis having less chakra doesn't meat that he's weaker. 
Kakashi is individually above juubito and his performance against kaguya puts him above overal as well, 

And obito was only syncing with her portals thanks to kamui. Assuming if juubito could even use these portals only then it's viable otherwise it's not happening


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## Kai (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Except kakashis having less chakra doesn't meat that he's weaker.
> Kakashi is individually above juubito and his performance against kaguya puts him above overal as well,


In no way does Kakashi's performance against Kaguya put him above god tiers that didn't have a performance against Kaguya. What kind of logic is that? If either Juubi Obito or Madara participated in the fight against Kaguya alongside Naruto and Sasuke, what denies them the possibility of landing a hit on Kaguya? 

To use our common ground as an example. You and I agree that Kakashi isn't even close to Madara's level, yet Kakashi landed a hit on someone who was out of Madara's league. The logic you use would put Kakashi above Madara's level despite the fact that a) Kakashi isn't as strong as any of these guys and b) it doesn't take guys above said level to land a hit on Kaguya. B is what is especially ignored by many here, and planting a single hit is a far cry from having an extended battle let alone going for a full course defeat.

Kakashi's final power comes directly from Obito and one must consider when Obito's power was at its greatest. Only if Kakashi received Obito's full Six Path power would he be above Obito at the height of his power, and even then it's short lived. We're relating power that comes from one and the same source.


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## Hachibi (Jan 31, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Cutting the moon =/= making it



That wasn't my point. Your point was that Hagoromo can make the moon, I replied by saying Sasuke can destroy it, or at least heavily damage it.



> Concession accepted. Because you have literally not outdrew anything nor have you even replied to what I said



I replied by that because Madara _had the exact same thing_.



> Yeah I haven't seen it
> No one needs to see the last to come to a conclusion that hagoromo > his halves



DMS Kakashi only had part of Obito's Rikudo Chakra yet he's > Juubito. You're thinking Sasuke and Naruto only have Hagoromo's power in their arsenal.



> Because data book stated that you need six paths senjutsu to have TSB
> NOT the juubi. This also explains how Hamura has the TSB as well
> Ashura didn't have any bijuu. His avatar didn't resemble any bijuu. Nor was it ever stated that he had bijuu. His avatar was just a a result of his chakra blooming



I conceed the first part but the Ashura's part didn't respond to me at all. I asked how do you know if Asura's ball are Gudodama.



> Already addressed
> Naruto and madara had TSB thanks to both having Rikudo senjutsu not the juubi
> Becoming a Jin automatically grants you Rikudo senjutsu hence why the Jins have TSB



Conceed.



> Except hagoromo would have the same thing, the only difference is that it'll be much better



How do you know that Hagoromo's forte is speed? Beside, Hagoromo admitted that Kaguya is his superior.



> Nowhere was it stated that naruto absorbed the entire planets nature energy
> Hell naruto couldn't even measure juubis nature energy and even that is nowhere near a planets



>Comparing Pre-Rikudo SM Naruto to Rikudo Naruto.



> This whole planet thing was made up by sasuke fanboys to make him sound much stronger
> It's nothing but a mere fallacy
> 
> Kurama only absorbed all the an ature bereft that was available to him. Doesn't mean that it was all there was, Big Dfference





That would have to be far more than just the nature around him.



> Naruto and sasuke each got only half of Hagoromos power
> Yet you have the nerve to say that half of Hagoromos power > all of it



Already adressed with DMS Kakashi


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## Blu-ray (Jan 31, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Even then, the fist's power should have dropped after destroying the laser beam.



Didn't destroy the beam though, just deflect it. If Naruto could tank it the first time, then using all power concentrated to deflect it doesn't seem so out there to me.



ARGUS said:


> Indra and Ashura are basically a slightly weaker version of RSM naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke,
> they would clown the likes of Obito, Kakashi and Guy
> 
> Hamura should be above Madara here,
> ...



Hamura and Hagoromo were equal at best pre Jin no? Madara with the Juubi was closer to Hagoromo, so him being above Hamura seems logical to me.

Indra and Asura are impossible to rank proper for me, especially when Juubi Jin's and 8 gates Gai have so much hype and feats going for them. Just but there there to be safe.



NarutoX28 said:


> I can honestly see RSM Naruto matching Rikudou Sennin considering RSM Naruto matched Sasuke using all of the Bijuu which reminded Yang Kurama of Rikudou Sennin's power.
> 
> If that means anything at all ....





NarutoX28 said:


> This is CS lvl 1 Sasuke
> 
> Which Naruto matched. But again, that at least explains that Naruto can gather enough energy to rival Hagoromo. In an actual match, I'll admit, Naruto definitely loses.



Yeah no. That was an unfortunate mistranslation. Sasuke's skill in manipulating the Bijuu's chakra is equal to Hagoromo's. He didn't become equal to Hagoromo by doing so.



Hachibi said:


> Because Sasuke was stated to be Rikudo Sennin Level by Yin Kurama and Naruto stalemated him?



That was a mistrasnlation unfortunately.



takL said:


> Kulama: he's freaking fusing those dispersed chakras into one. and neatly as hell, at that?.as if on a line (=par) with our Rikudoh geezer?
> There ain't any Gedomazo here but he made the susanoO a hellva container (for the biju chakras instead of gedomazo).
> Outrageous stuff will come out! Keep your damn guard up, Naruto!



Kurama was speaking of Sasuke's impeccable job of fusing their chakra. Had nothing to do with his power, just skill.



> Also they rpogressed by the time of the Epilogue.
> 
> And lol'd at Hagoromo not being a jin anymore when he could float and had Gudodama. He still had Juubi chakra.



Actually, Hagoromo had Godudama before the Jinchuriki business. So did Hamura and he was never given Juubi chakra.



ARGUS said:


> Lol death bed hagoromo created the fkn moon, sasuke has nothing in his arsenal to combat that so he dies



Actually, that was retconned out. It was created when Hamura and Hagoromo used the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei on Kaguya. Databook confirms it, and the The Last makes it shows Hamura was on it his young form. That wouldn't be possible if his Hagormo made it in old age.



ARGUS said:


> Nowhere was it stated that naruto absorbed the entire planets nature energy
> Hell naruto couldn't even measure juubis nature energy and even that is nowhere near a planets
> 
> This whole planet thing was made up by sasuke fanboys to make him sound much stronger
> ...



The translated raw...



takL said:


> Sasuke: You have too little chakras of bijus to compete with me right now.
> 
> Naruto in his mind: Not yet!? Kulama!!
> 
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 31, 2015)

@VolatileSoul

 Thanks for that. 

 @Argus

 Not that I disagree now, but Naruto is 50% BSM + 9 Bijuu Chakra + 1/2 Hagoromo's Chakra, but other than that, I agree.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 31, 2015)

0. Healthy Itachi Uchiha
1. Toneri Ōtsutsuki/Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
2. Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
3. Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
4. Obito Uchiha (Juubi)/Gai
5. Rikudo Naruto/Rikudo Sasuke
6. Double-MS Kakashi


I've not seen the new Naruto movie, so I don't know anything about Toneri other than the apparent fact that he cut the moon in half. But that's enough for me.


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## Veracity (Jan 31, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> 0. Healthy Itachi Uchiha
> 1. Toneri Ōtsutsuki/Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
> 2. Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
> 3. Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
> ...



What?? You think Juubito or Red Aura Gai can beat Riduko Naruto or sasuke. Specifically Naruto who can spam casual TBB: Rasen shiruken and blitz Kaguya?


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## ARGUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> That wasn't my point. Your point was that Hagoromo can make the moon, I replied by saying Sasuke can destroy it, or at least heavily damage it.


In no way shape or form is sasuke a moon buster, 
the strongest thing he could dish out was the indras arrow, and when it collided with narutos strongest attack, it was continent level at the very best, 
so a direct moon level CT one shots sasuke 



> I replied by that because Madara _had the exact same thing_.


Madara had six path senjutsu just like naruto, which is why both had TSB 
however naruto brought it one step ahead and has RSM,  
so NO its not the same thing 



> DMS Kakashi only had part of Obito's Rikudo Chakra yet he's > Juubito. You're thinking Sasuke and Naruto only have Hagoromo's power in their arsenal.


DMS kakashi is above him due to the rikudo chakra giving him a massive boost on PS, as well as teh versatility of Kamui 

as for Naruto and sasuke lets see:
 -- Hagoromos rinnegan mastery and usage is well above what sasuke has shown us, as well as teh fact that his chakra is much larger and stronger than sasukes, so in terms of Yin alone hagoromo is above him 

-- Hagoromo has more chakra than naruto, has everything that naruto has, only better, and has a much stronger bijuu (juubi) under his full control, so his yang also takes a dump on narutos power 

combine the Yin and Yang together, and individually he clowns them with utmost ease, 



> I conceed the first part but the Ashura's part didn't respond to me at all. I asked how do you know if Asura's ball are Gudodama.


the balls in his avatar look alot llike TSB not to mention that he had six path senjutsu and inherited hagoromos body, so he most certainly has the means to have TSB 
he doesnt have any bijuu either, so it has to be TSB 



> Conceed


.
 



> How do you know that Hagoromo's forte is speed? Beside, Hagoromo admitted that Kaguya is his superior.


Kaguya is superior to him overall, definitely 
but that doesnt mean that hagoromo is slower than her, 
RSM naruto is faster than kaguya, yet he still stands no chance against her at all 




> >Comparing Pre-Rikudo SM Naruto to Rikudo Naruto.


No, measuring something is completely different from using it or controlling it 
fodders can measure the chakra quantity of bijuu, 
doesnt make them have bijuu level reserves 


Yeah, but doesnt mean that its the entire nature energy in the  planet, 
not even the juubi has that much nature energy, 
yet kurama somehow has the means to have energy more than that? 

not to mention that senjutsu chakra is  composed of the balance between nature energy and the users own chakra, 
naruto still only has his own + hagoromos yang and 50% kuramas chakra, 

no way in hell is that the entire chakra of the planet 



> That would have to be far more than just the nature around him.


nature around him, sure, but the whole planet? No 




> Already adressed with DMS Kakashi


Not really, 
naruto and sasuke are compeltely reliant on the hagoromos chakra that he has given them, 
and its all because off that chakra that they are this strong, 

kakashi and juubito are completely different,


----------



## Hachibi (Feb 1, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> In no way shape or form is sasuke a moon buster,
> the strongest thing he could dish out was the indras arrow, and when it collided with narutos strongest attack, it was continent level at the very best,
> so a direct moon level CT one shots sasuke



I wasn't necessary talking about VOTE Sasuke (which btw, his Indra's Arrow clashing with Naruto's attacks could be feel for a country away) and btw, Moon-Level CT was retcon'd by Kishi when he added Hamura to the feat.



> Madara had six path senjutsu just like naruto, which is why both had TSB
> however naruto brought it one step ahead and has RSM,
> so NO its not the same thing



I wasn't comparing Naruto and Madara, but Madara and Hagoromo.



> DMS kakashi is above him due to the rikudo chakra giving him a massive boost on PS, as well as teh versatility of Kamui



Which is kinda the same thing for Sasuke (both having a massive boost in PS and having hax (Amenojikara)).



> as for Naruto and sasuke lets see:
> -- Hagoromos rinnegan mastery and usage is well above what sasuke has shown us, as well as teh fact that his chakra is much larger and stronger than sasukes, so in terms of Yin alone hagoromo is above him



We don't know about Hagoromo's Rinnegan Mastery (considering he only show CT, which Sasuke did). Also, chakra quantity and quality don't really matter (see Team 7 + Obito vs Kaguya).



> -- Hagoromo has more chakra than naruto, has everything that naruto has, only better, and has a much stronger bijuu (juubi) under his full control, so his yang also takes a dump on narutos power



Hagoromo doesn't have everything Naruto has:
-He doesn't have clone
-He doesn't have RS
-He doesn't have Avatar.



> combine the Yin and Yang together, and individually he clowns them with utmost ease,



Considering The Last Naruto is Moon-Level and The Last Sasuke can be scaled to him (tho debatable), no he doesn't clown them.



> the balls in his avatar look alot llike TSB not to mention that he had six path senjutsu and inherited hagoromos body, so he most certainly has the means to have TSB
> he doesnt have any bijuu either, so it has to be TSB



Just because he is Hagoromo's son doesn't mean he has Six Path Senjutsu. I mean, Indra is his son too and he didn't show Rinnegan. 




> Kaguya is superior to him overall, definitely
> but that doesnt mean that hagoromo is slower than her,
> RSM naruto is faster than kaguya, yet he still stands no chance against her at all



A part of it is because she's immortal, tho I agree.



> No, measuring something is completely different from using it or controlling it
> fodders can measure the chakra quantity of bijuu,
> doesnt make them have bijuu level reserves



The gap between fodder and Bijuu reserve and RSM Naruto (who got the chakra of all nine Bijuus) and the Juubi reserve aren't comparable since Naruto clowned One-Eyed Juudara.



> Yeah, but doesnt mean that its the entire nature energy in the  planet,
> not even the juubi has that much nature energy,
> yet kurama somehow has the means to have energy more than that?



Actually, Kurama compared the Juubi to the Planet in term of natural energy




> not to mention that senjutsu chakra is  composed of the balance between nature energy and the users own chakra,
> naruto still only has his own + hagoromos yang and 50% kuramas chakra,



Plus the fact that he was already in SM.



> no way in hell is that the entire chakra of the planet



VolatileSoul posted takL's translation so it should be accurate.



> nature around him, sure, but the whole planet? No



See above.



> Not really,
> naruto and sasuke are compeltely reliant on the hagoromos chakra that he has given them,
> and its all because off that chakra that they are this strong,



Naruto and Sasuke aren't reliant on Rikudo's Chakra, they're reliant on Bijuu chakra and the Rinnegan respectively (tho, it's what make them this strong in the first place.)



> kakashi and juubito are completely different,



Not that different actually.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> What?? You think Juubito or Red Aura Gai can beat Riduko Naruto or sasuke. Specifically Naruto who can spam casual TBB: Rasen shiruken and blitz Kaguya?



Yes.

Juubito has Gedoudama and Quad Rape Everything Juubidama, plus he's immune to any non-Senjutsu. Gai would simply break Nardo and Sauce in half with raw speed and power.

"Blitz" is also a really strong word to use with Kaguya.


----------



## Hachibi (Feb 1, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Juubito has Gedoudama



Useless considering they both can touch it.



> and Quad Rape Everything Juubidama,



Useless since they will destroy the tree before they fire off.



> plus he's immune to any non-Senjutsu



Too bad they can both harm him.



> Gai would simply break Nardo and Sauce in half with raw speed and power.



Yes, because bar Night Gai, he has something to break Nardo and Sauce's Avatar



> "Blitz" is also a really strong word to use with Kaguya.



How so?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Feb 1, 2015)

I don't even think a night guy would smash their avatars let alone kill them if it did. It took a six paths sage mode senjutsu bijuudama and a six paths chakra powered susanoo chidori collision to slightly mess up their avatars(even sasuke scoffed at the level of attack).

It's out of the question for guy to break naruto's triple headed fox avatar fusion powered by all of earth's natural energy or sasuke's PS jacked on the tailed beast chakra. I doubt night guy is stronger than the damage from a indra arrow and cho odama rasenshuriken + tailed beast ball rasenshuriken clash.


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## ARGUS (Feb 1, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I wasn't necessary talking about VOTE Sasuke (which btw, his Indra's Arrow clashing with Naruto's attacks could be feel for a country away) and btw, Moon-Level CT was retcon'd by Kishi when he added Hamura to the feat.


Still doesnt make him moon level, nor does anything suggest that he could form or even cut the moon, when the clash of Narutos and Sasukes strongest attacks is nothing in comparison to what hagoromo did
not to mention that it was  the clash, so sasukes attack would be half  of that at best 
and nothing was retconned, 



> I wasn't comparing Naruto and Madara, but Madara and Hagoromo.


Hagoromo >>> Madara, Hagoromo >>> Naruto 



> Which is kinda the same thing for Sasuke (both having a massive boost in PS and having hax (Amenojikara)).


Rikudo senjutsu attacks, immense deva path techniques, and sword of nunoboku would plow through his PS like a balloon, 
hagormooo most certainly also has amenotejikara seeing how he was stated to have every ability of the rinnegan, so its not doing shit, especially when he has juubi jin level, and RSM sensing to aidd his reflexes even more 



> We don't know about Hagoromo's Rinnegan Mastery (considering he only show CT, which Sasuke did).


Umm he was  stated to have unlocked  the full potential of the rinnegan and was stated to have been able to use all of its techniques, 
added with his superior reserves, juubi boost, and RSM, means that he rapes anyone bar kaguya 



> Also, chakra quantity and quality don't really matter (see Team 7 + Obito vs Kaguya).


yes they do, they matter severely 
the whole reason kaguya was sealed was because naruto and sasuke had the seals to seal her in one touch, 
kaguyas chakra quality and quantity takes a dump on either of them, hence why she would rape any of them within a matter oof minutes 



> Hagoromo doesn't have everything Naruto has:
> -He doesn't have clone


And in what way is this even a factor 


> -He doesn't have RS


its garbage to him 


> -He doesn't have Avatar.


You mean the kurama avatar? and how is that even a factor against him, when the main reason it was soo powerful was due to the rikudo senjutsu boost, which hagoromoo himself gave to naruto, 
not to mention that hagoromo has the juubi on top of the same boost with superior quanittiy and quality, so he turns naruto into a smear on the ground 




> Considering The Last Naruto is Moon-Level and The Last Sasuke can be scaled to him (tho debatable), no he doesn't clown them.


yes he does, seeing how  they received only half of his non jins powers, and their growth is lucky to put them near non jin hagoromo, though they will still lose, 

make hagoromo the jin and they get clowned 




> Just because he is Hagoromo's son doesn't mean he has Six Path Senjutsu. I mean, Indra is his son too and he didn't show Rinnegan.


Indra had a devolved version of the rinnegan which was most likely the EMS, since he obviously didnt inherit all of hagoromos yin, 
ashura inherited  the yang half, had an avatar that was a devolved version of what naruto had, 
except he wast a jin, so the only thing that leads to him having TSB is that he had rikudo senjutsuu, whichh he most likely diid 



> A part of it is because she's immortal, tho I agree.
> 
> The gap between fodder and Bijuu reserve and RSM Naruto (who got the chakra of all nine Bijuus) and the Juubi reserve aren't comparable since Naruto clowned One-Eyed Juudara.


Naruto clowned juudara, because he had half of hagoromos power, and his own RSM 
whilst madara clearly didnt have that, nor was his rinnegan anywhre near as good as rikudos

hagoromo has the same boosts as narutos except they are greater in quantity and quality, on top of the fact that he has a fully mastered rinnegan, and a juubi which is boosted by the same things that boosted narutos kurama, 

so in conclusion naruto gets pasted 




> Actually, Kurama compared the Juubi to the Planet in term of natural energy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except kurama doesnt have the chakra greater than the juubi, 
so it cant take on natural energy from the entire planett,, 
thats fanfic, 
takls translation doesnt make sense here, and i would prefer to see the viz scan, because the whole planet thing sounds fanfic at its finest 




> See above.
> 
> 
> *Naruto and Sasuke aren't reliant on Rikudo's Chakra,* they're reliant on Bijuu chakra and the Rinnegan respectively (tho, it's what make them this strong in the first place.)


Uhh what? yes they are, 
without the rikudo chakra, sasukes PS would be the same as  his EMS state, meaning that itll be garbbage to any god tier shinobi,, 
and without the rikudo chakra, narutos avatar would be the same as his BSM state, meaning that itll also be garbage to any god tier 

rinnegan itself was only awakened due to sasuke recieving all of hagoromos yin chakra, 
and without the rikudo boost, sasukes reflexes would be the same as his EMS state, which is clearly not enough to make amenotejikara a factor against god tier shinobi 

and as for narutos bijuu chakkra, he ran out of it at VOTE, so he was still only relying on kurama, not to mention that rikudo chakra >>>>>> bijuu chakra, so NO, narutor still relied on hagoromos power 



> Not that different actually.


one relies on kamui an S/T jutsu, whilst the other relies on the juubi, yeah they are very different


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes.
> 
> Juubito has Gedoudama and Quad Rape Everything Juubidama, plus he's immune to any non-Senjutsu. Gai would simply break Nardo and Sauce in half with raw speed and power.
> 
> "Blitz" is also a really strong word to use with Kaguya.



 Juubidara >>> Juubito.

 Juubidara was scared of Sasuke's Rinnegan and had to use a feint to get outside of his range.

 I don't see how Juubito can beat Sasuke. Gai is debatable I suppose.


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## Zef (Feb 1, 2015)

> People putting Kakashi, Gai, Obito, and Toneri above Naruto & Sasuke

> People saying Naruto using the world's natural energy is fanfic as if talK (A Naruto fan) has anything to gain by making that up.

1)Toneri is a filler villain who got defeated by BSM Naruto; nuff said.

2)Gai is in no way above Naruto and/or Sasuke as they are capable of flight, and can just rain down attacks on Gai. Not that they need to take flight though, I'm just mentioning it because that capability makes it impossible for Gai to land any hits on them.It took Gai going into 8th gates with the assistance of Lee, Gaara, and Kakashi just to do damage to JJ Madara. 

This is what Naruto did alone to Madara:


This is what Sasuke did alone to a superior Madara:


Naruto, and Sasuke neg diff Gai.

3)Kakashi's only threat to Naruto, and Sasuke is Kamui. Which can be avoided by them staying at a distance (Gaara needed to bring Kakashi closer to Madara during the latter's fight with Gai).This is of course under the assumption that Naruto, and Sasuke don't just speedblitz Kakashi.

4)Obito in his strongest form got defeated by a Naruto, and Sasuke pre Rikudou power-up. Don't know why he's being put above them.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 1, 2015)

^ People are just going to argue that Madara didn't have Godoudama there .


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## Veracity (Feb 1, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes.
> 
> Juubito has Gedoudama and Quad Rape Everything Juubidama, plus he's immune to any non-Senjutsu. Gai would simply break Nardo and Sauce in half with raw speed and power.
> 
> "Blitz" is also a really strong word to use with Kaguya.



& Naruto doesn't have them also?

Quad BjuiiDama? Lol Naruto blocks them via Geoduama + Bjuii cloak while Sasuke can simply warp outside the barrier.

Too bad Naruto can throw 9 different types of Riduko amplified Rasen Shiruken enhanced by Senjustu, and Sasuke just naturally has Senjustu running through his body. Naruto slams a TBB Rasen shiruken through Juubitos eye lids the same way he blitzed someone two tiers stronger then Juubito. Sasuke blitzes Juuibto with a Chidori flowed katana, the same way he casually split Madara in half who is a tier above Juubito.

Nothing in Gai's aresenal bar night Gai is capable of blizting Naruto or Sasuke. He was having trouble blizting one eyed Madara and Riduko Naruto + Sasuke have reactions superior to that . Gai also wasn't even able to put down Juubidaras  actual body while Sasuke( with a non Raiton flowed sword) was able to cut Madara in half like butter. A PS sword isn't able to breach Riduko Naruto cloak and Naruto + Sasuke survive point blank Bjuiidama without breaching their megazoids. Night Gai wouldn't breach PS or a BM cloak.


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## Gilgamesh (Feb 2, 2015)

Well Hamura had Tenseigan and we saw what Toneri could do with it


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## trance (Feb 2, 2015)

> Rank the Narutoverse *transcendants*



Technically speaking, no one in the Nardoverse is anywhere close to being classified as a Transcendent. 

But anyway...

Prime Itachi
Kishi with all of his trolling feats
Kaguya
Hagoromo/Rikudou Nardo/Rikudou Sauce
Juudara
Red Gate Gai
Juubito
Rikudou Kakashi
The rest


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## KyuubiFan (Feb 2, 2015)

1) Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
1.5) Ultimate Madara (3 eyes)
2) Hamura and Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
3) Toneri Ōtsutsuki
4) Rikudo Fagruto and Sauce
5) DMS Kakashi and 8th Gate Gai
6) Juubito


I ranked Madara higher than H&H because according to Hagoromo he "obtained a power close to mine" without the Shinju and the 3rd eye. After that he became similar to Kaguya.


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## Kyu (Feb 2, 2015)

1. Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
2. Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
3. 3 eyed Madara Uchiha 
4. Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo Sage Mode)
5. Sasuke Uchiha (Sharinnegan)
6.  Kakashi Hatake (DMS)
7. Red Aura Gai
8. Juubito


100% BSM Nardo and Toneri fall somewhere in between 3 eyed Madara and RSM Naruto/Rikudo Sasuke.


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## SSMG (Feb 2, 2015)

1.Kaguya
2. 3 eyed juubiadara.
3.Hagorama
4.DMS Kakashi.
5&6 Sasuke and Naruto.
7. 8th gate guy.
8. Juubito.

I didn't place toneri because I haven't seen the movie and am trying my darnest to avoid any spoilers.

And healthy itachi is not in this tier at all he'd be a few entire tiers below anyone on this list so he didnt get ranked.


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## ARGUS (Feb 2, 2015)

SSMG said:


> 1.Kaguya
> 2. 3 eyed juubiadara.
> 3.Hagorama*
> 4.DMS Kakashi.*
> ...



DMS kakashi gets turned into a smear on the ground by either naruto and sasuke, 
especiallly naruto,


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## SSMG (Feb 2, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> DMS kakashi gets turned into a smear on the ground by either naruto and sasuke,
> especiallly naruto,



If that is your opinion.


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## Prinz Porno (Feb 2, 2015)

1. Kaguya
2. Haorama 
3. Madara
4. Naruto
5. Kakashi
6. Sasuke
7. Gai
8. Obito


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## Zef (Feb 2, 2015)

Can someone please explain to me how Naruto, and Sasuke don't obliterate DMS Kakashi?  

The guy conjured PS once, used a couple of Kamui shuriken, and lastly did a regular Kamui. After that he was done. His stamina doesn't compare to Sasuke's let alone Naruto's


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 2, 2015)

^ I personally believe DMS Kakashi is superior to Sasuke, but loses mainly due to lower stamina. Naruto himself stated that Kakashi's Susanoo was more impressive than Sasuke's and Sasuke never denied it.


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## Kaiser (Feb 3, 2015)

1. Kaguya Ōtsutsuki
2. Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki
3. 3 eyed Madara Uchiha 
4. Naruto Uzumaki (Rikudo Sage Mode)
5. Sasuke Uchiha (Sharinnegan)
6. Kakashi Hatake (DMS)
7. Red Aura Gai
8. Juubito
9. Itachi


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## Zef (Feb 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ I personally believe DMS Kakashi is superior to Sasuke, but loses mainly due to lower stamina. Naruto himself stated that Kakashi's Susanoo was more impressive than Sasuke's and Sasuke never denied it.


> Using a comedic moment as proof that Kakashi has a superior Susano'o 

The reason Sasuke didn't deny it is because unlike Naruto he focuses on the task at hand.i.e, Kaguya

So I assume you believe DMS Kakashi is also above Naruto, after all Sasuke's PS was stalemating with Naruto's Kurama Avatar. 

Nevermind the fact a Kaguya's ash bone decimated Kakashi's PS:

While Sasuke's tanked the combined collision of this:

Kakashi's also only has one sword:


So yeah....Not seeing how DMS Kakashi is being put above Sasuke.


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## SSMG (Feb 3, 2015)

I base DMS kakashi being where he is because he can bypass the avatar cloak around both naruto and sasuke and cone in with a kamui raikiri to the face.


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## Stan Lee (Feb 3, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> 1: Kaguya Otsutsuki
> 2: Madara Uchiha (Juubi / 3 eyes)
> 3: Hagoromo Otsutsuki
> 4: Rikudou Naruto
> ...





Raikiri19 said:


> 0)  Healthy Itachi Uchiha
> 
> - gap -
> 
> ...



Lol Gai is that high? Madara wasn't even really fighting back and he dies soon after using the gate. He is overall Top tier.


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## Altair21 (Feb 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ I personally believe DMS Kakashi is superior to Sasuke, but loses mainly due to lower stamina. Naruto himself stated that Kakashi's Susanoo was more impressive than Sasuke's and Sasuke never denied it.



Cooler does not mean stronger or more impressive.


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## Mercurial (Feb 3, 2015)

Zero Requiem said:


> Lol Gai is that high? Madara wasn't even really fighting back and he dies soon after using the gate. He is overall Top tier.



He couldn't fight back because Gai was too fast and too powerful, hence he was blitzing and ragdolling him around. Yeah he dies after but that's his absolute peak.



Zef said:


> Can someone please explain to me how Naruto, and Sasuke don't obliterate DMS Kakashi?
> 
> The guy conjured PS once, used a couple of Kamui shuriken, and lastly did a regular Kamui. After that he was done. His stamina doesn't compare to Sasuke's let alone Naruto's



From a story purpose vision, Naruto and Sasuke should have surpassed their master Kakashi. But based on feats and even portrayal, they don't: they fought Kaguya for quite a while without real good results, while Kakashi alone literally changed the battle against a stronger version of Kaguya, with his actions and his strategy; he could stop her giant form thanks to Perfect Susanoo and Kamui Shuriken, dodge her thanks to Kamui phasing, hit her directly thanks to Kamui Raikiri hax + Rikudo enhanced speed and outperform her S/T jutsu thanks to long range Kamui. Sasuke couldn't do anything to stop Kaguya's S/T and couldn't hit her with a surprise attack with Rinnegan S/T followed by Chidori, his Perfect Susanoo was also helpless in the fight: Kakashi shitted on Kaguya's S/T with his reflexes and his perfect execution on Kamui (also saving Naruto's life and making the sealing combo possible), could hit her with a quick thrust thanks to more hax and more speed, effectively damaging her in a 1 vs 1, and his Perfect Susanoo was really useful, countering Kaguya's giant form and helping with mobility, and even launching Sakura from above to hit Kaguya. Naruto did decently well but all of his raw power is useless against Kamui.

Basically Naruto and Sasuke have far more raw power but Kakashi has too more hax with all Kamui powers amped by Rikudo chakra, and also is a genius fighter, while their intellect, even if good, can't compare; all their power is useless if they can't hit him, due to top notch reflexes + Kamui phasing and Kamui teleporting (at maximizes speed, having both eyes) and can't defend from him (long range Kamui's execution has feats to be faster than Naruto's speed and faster than Kaguya's S/T that already blitzed Sasuke; Kamui Raikiri couldn't be dodged by Kaguya herself while she could dodge Sasuke's Rinnegan S/T + Chidori in a weaker version). Stamina doesn't mean much when the fight can be ended quickly; also, Kakashi's DMS + Rikudo chakra vanished only because the fight was over and world saved, so it wasn't needed anymore.


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## Kai (Feb 3, 2015)

Kakashi can't end any god tier quickly. Any god tier can dance with Kakashi for a few minutes. He, like Gai, temporarily possesses god tier power and the notion they can end any of the final villains this war arc that quickly before their power expires is nothing but fantasy.


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## Santoryu (Feb 3, 2015)

There aren't many characters that can beat Kakashi at the zenith of his powers. The likes of Kaguya and Naruto are unequivocally superior, yes, but considering Kakashi did this:



his efficiency in dealing with high-level opponents is more feasible than a "fantasy".


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## Alex Payne (Feb 3, 2015)

The thing about god tiers is Kishi's godawful tendency to hype the next one and throw around massive powerups. 

You have Mindless Obito. Hyped to be above Hashirama. Then Obito. Then One Eye Madara. Hyped above Obito already. Then Shinju absorption. Then 2nd Rinnegan(crazy hype again). Then 3rd eye. Kaguya appears. Instantly gets placed above last version of Madara. Afterwards she absorbs some stuff I don't remember and gets even stronger than that.

And Kakashi was able to outperform that latest version of Kaguya. It wasn't one-on-one yeah. But if you consider the crazy chain of hype and power ups - it looks extremely impressive. But the problem is - it doesn't make much sense. I love seeing Kakashi owning the closest thing to God but if we look at previous feats... First iteration of Madara was above Obito. He got Shinju boost but was still fucked up by Sasuke's new S/T jutsu. Pre-boost Kaguya brushed said jutsu off. Kakashi's overall stats should at the very best be on controlled Jin Obito level(and even that barely makes sense) yet he went and Raikiri'd the shit out of strongest Kaguya. Who could laugh at Sauce's teleports all day. You see where I am going? Defensive Kamui hax isn't _that_ good to make up for crazy stats difference.


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## Hachibi (Feb 3, 2015)

Zef said:


> > Using a comedic moment as proof that Kakashi has a superior Susano'o
> 
> The reason Sasuke didn't deny it is because unlike Naruto he focuses on the task at hand.i.e, Kaguya
> 
> ...



You forget that Sasuke's PS didn't instantly die form Kaguya's fists.


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## Zef (Feb 3, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> You forget that Sasuke's PS didn't instantly die form Kaguya's fists.


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## SSMG (Feb 3, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> You forget that Sasuke's PS didn't instantly die form Kaguya's fists.



That really doesn't tell us much of anything considering kakashis PS never got attacked by kaguyas fists in the first place.


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## Hachibi (Feb 3, 2015)

SSMG said:


> That really doesn't tell us much of anything considering kakashis PS never got attacked by kaguyas fists in the first place.



But it got break by something much weaker in term of DC (albeit,much more letal on organic things (which PS isn't)).


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## SSMG (Feb 3, 2015)

How do we know that? Bone ash seems to be like a gudodama orb and bone jutsu mixed. Its not like sasukes PS tanked bone ash or anything so we really don't know how it would handle it.


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## Hachibi (Feb 3, 2015)

SSMG said:


> How do we know that? Bone ash seems to be like a gudodama orb and bone jutsu mixed. Its not like sasukes PS tanked bone ash or anything so we really don't know how it would handle it.



A Gudodama doesn't insta-kill you, so no. Plus, Sasuke's PS stalemated Naruto's Avatar,so it would handle it fine.


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## SSMG (Feb 3, 2015)

The ash bones dont install kill either.

But for that example of stalemating naruto kurama avatar.. That's another thing that wasn't hit by ash bones so we still don't know how the PS would handle ash bones.


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## Stan Lee (Feb 3, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He couldn't fight back because Gai was too fast and too powerful, hence he was blitzing and ragdolling him around. Yeah he dies after but that's his absolute peak.



Uh, he could fight back. He just choose not to. Gai had no defense against limbo.


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## SSMG (Feb 3, 2015)

"He just choose not too."

By choosing not you.. you mean wasn't able to because Guy rushed in on him with a blitz on every single encounter they had, right?

Limbo is only good on what madara can hit. As we seen madara could barely react to guys movements let alone intercept him with limbo.


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## Raiken (Feb 3, 2015)

To go in more detail, this is my scaling:
If the text is in red, we never seen that version of the Character, but was possible.

*God Tier*
Kaguya = Rinne Sharingan/Dual Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Madara "w/ Shinju Absorbed"
>
Dual Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Madara "w/ Shinju Absorbed"
>
1 Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Madara "w/ Shinju Absorbed"

*Demi-God Tier*
Dual Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Hagoromo = Dual Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Madara
>
1 Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Madara = 9BJ RSM Naruto "w/ Hagoromo's Yang Chakra" = EMS/Tomoe-Rinnegan Sasuke "w/Hashirama's Chakra, Hagaromo's Yin Chakra & 9-Bijuu Chakra"
>>
"Controlled" Imperfect JJ RSM Obito = EMS/Tomoe-Rinnegan Sasuke "w/Hashirama's Chakra & Hagaromo's Yin Chakra" = 100% KJ BSM Naruto "w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra"
>
Tenseigan CM Toneri = 50% KJ BSM Naruto "w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra"

*Ascended Tier*
50% KJ BM Naruto "w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra" = 9BJ Naruto "w/ Hagaromo's Yang Chakra" = EMS Sasuke "w/ Hashirama's Chakra & Hagaromo's Yin Chakra"
>
Dual Rinnegan SM Madara "w/ Hashirama's DNA"
>
DMS Kakashi "w/ Obito's RSM Chakra" = 8th Gate Gai = 1 Rinnegan SM Madara "w/ Hashirama's DNA" = "Uncontrolled" Imperfect JJ RSM Obito.
>
Dual Rinnegan Madara "w/ Hashirama's DNA" = SM Madara "w/ Hashirama's DNA" = SM Hashirama = KJ BSM Naruto = KJ BM Minato
>
EMS Madara = Base Hashirama = KJ BM Naruto = Dual Rinnegan Nagato "Healthy / Not Crippled"


I'm a bit unsure in the Ascended Tier, but the rest I mostly believe in.

"Also, I I know there are more powerful or equal to 1 Rinnegan Perfect JJ RSM Madara "w/ Shinju Absorbed" in the Demi God Tier. But the fact he has the Shinju absorbed makes him immortal, which I feel is a pre-requisite to being in God Tier.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

SSMG said:


> "He just choose not too."
> 
> By choosing not you.. you mean wasn't able to because Guy rushed in on him with a blitz on every single encounter they had, right?
> 
> Limbo is only good on what madara can hit. As we seen madara could barely react to guys movements let alone intercept him with limbo.



 That is a very good point. I honestly can't believe I overlooked that detail.

 You should bring that up in the Nagato vs. 7th Gate Gai thread.


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## ARGUS (Feb 4, 2015)

any list that puts madara above hagoromo, and any list that puts dms kakashi above the likes of rikudo naruto and sasuke shouldnt even be worth reading,


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## Prinz Porno (Feb 4, 2015)

DMS Kakashi is above Sasuke, Naruto is debatable though. There is a reason why Kakashi had the sharingan like for only 2 chapters or so, he was broken beyond belief.


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## Mercurial (Feb 4, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kakashi can't end any god tier quickly. Any god tier can dance with Kakashi for a few minutes. He, like Gai, temporarily possesses god tier power and the notion they can end any of the final villains this war arc that quickly before their power expires is nothing but fantasy.


Kaguya could dodge Sasuke's Rinnegan S/T + Chidori like it was nothing, a stronger and faster version of Kaguya couldn't do shit against Kakashi's dash with Kamui Raikiri. Kakashi's long range Kamui was faster than Kaguya's S/T that Sasuke couldn't defend from in time to not be captured. Kakashi's defense with phasing is flawless and his offense is the best hax possibile with long range Kamui, Kamui self teleporting and Kamui Raikiri. He is powered by Rikudo chakra, is godly fast and maybe the smartest character in the manga. He directly outperformed the main character against the same opponent, actually in a stronger version. I can't believe it myself, but his feats are over the roof.



Prinz Porno said:


> DMS Kakashi is above Sasuke, Naruto is debatable though. There is a reason why Kakashi had the sharingan like for only 2 chapters or so, he was broken beyond belief.



Yeah. Kishimoto wouldn't have had any problem to let him remain with that power up, the manga was ending and a final power up for a main character it's not that crazy in a shonen. But he had to take it back, otherwise Kakashi would have schooled Sasuke when he tried the "revolution". Comparing Kakashi's and Sasuke's feats against Kaguya (with Kakashi fighting a stronger version of Kaguya) is shameful for Sasuke's part. Kakashi's Susanoo outperformed his, Kakashi hit the opponent that dodged Sasuke's attacks with ease, Kakashi reacted and negged the same S/T that blitzed Sasuke and would have ended him if not for Obito and Sakura's rescue.



Zero Requiem said:


> Uh, he could fight back. He just choose not to. Gai had no defense against limbo.



Proof, or it's only fanfiction. After the off panel fighing before Gai's ougi, Madara managed do damage him heavily (1). Also his defense is blitzing Madara's ass, as he did more than once. No better defense than attack.


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## Kai (Feb 4, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kaguya could dodge Sasuke's Rinnegan S/T + Chidori like it was nothing, a stronger and faster version of Kaguya couldn't do shit against Kakashi's dash with Kamui Raikiri. Kakashi's long range Kamui was faster than Kaguya's S/T that Sasuke couldn't defend from in time to not be captured. Kakashi's defense with phasing is flawless and his offense is the best hax possibile with long range Kamui, Kamui self teleporting and Kamui Raikiri. He is powered by Rikudo chakra, is godly fast and maybe the smartest character in the manga. He directly outperformed the main character against the same opponent, actually in a stronger version. I can't believe it myself, but his feats are over the roof.


Kamui wasn't faster than Amenominaka; it was faster than the ash bone being projected out of Kaguya's portal. As you acknowledged before, Kaguya's heavenly space-time could react instantly to Sasuke's Amenojikara on more than one occasion and had intense chakra reserves where she could do so casually.

Kaguya was likely caught utterly off guard by Kamui's phasing power. Speed wasn't the focus there, and it wasn't a battle of space-time or else Kakashi would surely lose.

Remember, a half dead Obito phased through Madara's physical attack and extracted some bijuu chakra from him. Madara was also surprised by the ability.


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## Zef (Feb 4, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> any list that puts madara above hagoromo, and any list that puts dms kakashi above the likes of rikudo naruto and sasuke shouldnt even be worth reading,



THIS!!!!!! 


Rinnegan Genjutsu fodderizes Kakashi, and no one can prove otherwise.


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## ARGUS (Feb 4, 2015)

Prinz Porno said:


> DMS Kakashi is above Sasuke, Naruto is debatable though. There is a reason why Kakashi had the sharingan like for only 2 chapters or so, he was broken beyond belief.



No he's not, Sasuke comfortably Beats him whilst naruto utterly clowns him 

 -- Sasukes PS has an output that's far above kakashis, susanoos power orginates from the quality of the users chakra, and all of Hagoromos yin chakra >>>>>>>>> portion of Rikudo chakra from pseudo Jin obito, so repeated slashes from sasukes PS obliterate kakashis with ease 

 -- kamui shurikens are countered by Enton projectiles, which will make the shuriken warp away, so they are not doing shit 

 -- outside of PS, kakashi isn't doing much. When the instant he's within the range of amenotejkikara, he gets a sword shoved through his chest just like madara only this time he dies. 

 -- kakashi can't counter rinnegan genjutsu either, his eyes are inferior and this will be just the same case tsukuyomi (MS) vs kakashis 3T, as once he gets caught, he dies 

 -- sasuke with bijuus clowns him within a matter of minutes 

As for naruto. Lol. BDRS and TBB obliterate PS, followe by multiple clones gang banging him and slamming him down with a rasengan


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 4, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> No he's not, Sasuke comfortably Beats him whilst naruto utterly clowns him
> 
> -- Sasukes PS has an output that's far above kakashis, susanoos power orginates from the quality of the users chakra, and all of Hagoromos yin chakra >>>>>>>>> portion of Rikudo chakra from pseudo Jin obito, so repeated slashes from sasukes PS obliterate kakashis with ease
> 
> ...



 Well, Naruto himself implies Kakashi's Susanoo was more amazing than Sasuke's which Sasuke never denied and actually responded back more aggressively. I personally do think it implies Kakashi's Susanoo (esp. with Kamui) > Sasuke's Susanoo.

 I get what you're saying, but if that portion of Rikudou chakra wasn't significant, Kakashi wouldn't have risen to the point of being able to hit a stronger and faster Kaguya where as Sasuke's Amenotejkikara (stupid name) using Chidori could not. There's also the fact that Obito has god-like chakra, so that may have enhanced the quality of his chakra quite a bit. 

 Those Kamui Shurikens can also counter Kaguya's chakra arms that pushed Sasuke's PS back, so you're severely underestimating the power of his Kamui Shurikens here.

 I do agree though, Sasuke w/ Bijuu clowns Kakashi's Susanoo. RSM Naruto also does clown Kakashi due to being a better match up over all.


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## Alita (Feb 5, 2015)

1.Kaguya
2.Hagomoro
3.Hamura
3.5.Prime Juubi
4.Indra
5.Ashura
6.EOS Naruto/EOS Sasuke/Full Power Juudara
7.Toneri
8.8th Gate Gai
9.Juubito
10.DMS Kakashi
11.Itachi



Zuhaitz said:


> Kaguya Ootsuki
> 
> Hogoromo Ootsuki (as jinchuuriki)
> Hamura Ootsuki (as jinchuuriki)
> ...



Why do you have obito and toneri above naruto and sasuke?


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## ARGUS (Feb 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well, Naruto himself implies Kakashi's Susanoo was more amazing than Sasuke's which Sasuke never denied and actually responded back more aggressively. I personally do think it implies Kakashi's Susanoo (esp. with Kamui) > Sasuke's Susanoo.


No he said that its cooler than sasukes, 
cooler does NOT mean that its stronger, 



> I get what you're saying, but if that portion of Rikudou chakra wasn't significant,


All of rikudos yin directly from the man >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some rikudo chakra from pseudo jin obito, 
so when it comes to susanoo, sasukes is well above kakashis 



> Kakashi wouldn't have risen to the point of being able to hit a stronger and faster Kaguya where as Sasuke's Amenotejkikara (stupid name) using Chidori could not.


kamui raikiri blitzing kaguya is the biggest misconceptions these days, 
*seeing how kaguya clearly saw him coming which means that she reacted, *
yet for some odd reason doesnt decide to evade it, or just use yomutsu hirasaka 
when she had the speed to evade sasukes S/T on foot, 
amenominaka couldve instantly be used to evade it, so this is CIS at its finest, 

then there is the fact that kamui is not even instant unlike amenotejikara, and was comparable to madaras TSB in terms of speed,meaning that its much much much slower 

inb4, rikudo boost, NO, 
rikudo chakra makes the jutsu more powerful due to the stronger chakra however the properties of the jutsu would still be the same, in which case the speed of kamui is still much slower than amenotejikara, 



> There's also the fact that Obito has god-like chakra, so that may have enhanced the quality of his chakra quite a bit.


Except Hagoromos chakra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Obitos
and sasuke got not some but ALL of his YIN chakra, whilst obito only a portion of his chakra 
so sasukes PS >>>>>> Kakashis 

then theres also the fact that kakashi also cant counter rinnegan genjutsu, nor could he react to amenotejikara instantly warping a sword on kakashis chest 



> Those Kamui Shurikens can also counter Kaguya's chakra arms that pushed Sasuke's PS back, so you're severely underestimating the power of his Kamui Shurikens here.


Enton hits the kamui shurikens, the shurikens warp them away, 
therefore the shurikens are getting coutnered, and are not doing shit, 
YM can also be used, and so can a PS blade 
PS swinging its blade, would also cause the shurikens to be blown away, and then warp themselves 




> I do agree though, Sasuke w/ Bijuu clowns Kakashi's Susanoo. RSM Naruto also does clown Kakashi due to being a better match up over all.


yeah, glad to hear, although this should be clear to any clown who read the manga


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## Mercurial (Feb 5, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kamui wasn't faster than Amenominaka; it was faster than the ash bone being projected out of Kaguya's portal. As you acknowledged before, Kaguya's heavenly space-time could react instantly to Sasuke's Amenojikara on more than one occasion and had intense chakra reserves where she could do so casually.
> 
> Kaguya was likely caught utterly off guard by Kamui's phasing power. Speed wasn't the focus there, and it wasn't a battle of space-time or else Kakashi would surely lose.
> 
> Remember, a half dead Obito phased through Madara's physical attack and extracted some bijuu chakra from him. Madara was also surprised by the ability.


DMS Kakashi's long range Kamui was directly compared by Sasuke's instant swap with Amenotejikara. When MS Kakashi's long range Kamui could warp an head sized object in the same time that Obito needed to instantly phase a part of his body, or a giant arm of the Gedo Mazo in the same time Madara summoned it to him with S/T and with KCM Minato not being able to register what happened, and to warp a human body making Naruto's jump and a point blank Kamui-propelled stake look like they weren't moving at all, it's just logical that a powered up version would gain a similar godly feat.

Kamui warp starts, Kamui warp ends; Amenotejikara ready, Amenotejikara executed.



Kaguya's S/T Yomotsu Hirasaka works by creating portals. A portal is opened at the starting place, a portal is opened to the arriving place, and the teleporting is completed when the arriving portal closed. The portal is that black hole; mind that in the images Kaguya's teleporting may seem slow, but that's because everything is showed with the rallenty, actually the events are in a very very fast succession, as the speed of these characters and of their jutsu is out of the world; this is the same teleporting that the first time blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke, then blitzed Sasuke (when used with a frontal beginning, so not even a surprise attack) and was dodged just in time by Naruto. The Kaguya that DMS Kakashi fought is said to be far stronger and faster than before because of all the chakra she absorbed from the Mugen Tsukuyomi victims, so is possible that her jutsu were powered up too, so the S/T Kaguya used and Kakashi negged was at the very least as fast as the one that Sasuke couldn't defend from and Naruto could barely dodge, if not definitely faster. But anyway, what happened. Kaguya opens a hole in front of the real Naruto, and a hole (a S/T portal) is already sending the bone projectile from her arm. You can clearly see the black hole of the S/T portal. 



Then the portal is finishing to open sending the bone right on Naruto's face, but Kakashi reacts to it and uses long range Kamui to warp the attack before Naruto is hit: not only he warps the bone projectile, but it warps the S/T portal too, as the black hole of the portal you could clearly see before, an instant after is no more. So DMS Kakashi's long range Kamui outspeeded Kaguya's S/T, warping away it before it could even complete itself, the same S/T that outspeeded Sasuke's reactions as Sasuke wasn't able to dodge or to defend in time. I think it is clear as day.



Also, as far as I know _Amenominaka_ can be as fast as DMS long range Kamui, so basically totally instant, it basically changes the world at the user will, as Kamui warps in another dimension whatever the user gazes on. With Kaguya's S/T there I was referring to  as I already addressed.

Kaguya just witnessed Kakashi's Kamui's phasing power (1) so she has no excuses to "being caught off guard". If she could perfectly react to Sasuke's Chidori post instant Rinnegan teleporting, her reflexes are fool proof. It's just that Kakashi's speed was too fast to physically dodge or someway counter, and the phasing effect negged every possible counter attack for her. She doesn't even reacts with "!" until he pierced her, when she then screams out in pain (2).

First thing, Kakashi uses Kamui to phase through Kaguya's attack, hence dodging it by slipping through. Zetsu is surprised by this, and so is Kaguya (1 - 2). Then Kakashi, who has focused a Black (Rikudo enhanced) Raikiri in his hand, dashes on Kaguya (3).



Kakashi thrusts through Kaguya wounding her right arm/shoulder. He phases through her and only materializes his hand at the right moment to pierce with Raikiri. Kaguya doesn't show a reaction until he pierces her.



Madara was just surprised about the fact that Obito was still able to defend from him, when he thought Obito was to the point to be no more and that Zetsu was in control of him. Not because of Kamui phasing that he already knew well.



ARGUS said:


> kamui raikiri blitzing kaguya is the biggest misconceptions these days,
> *seeing how kaguya clearly saw him coming which means that she reacted, *
> yet for some odd reason doesnt decide to evade it, or just use yomutsu hirasaka
> when she had the speed to evade sasukes S/T on foot,
> ...


Don't try to downplay if you're just pulling things out of your ass, pal. Kaguya's "!!" are for the fact that Kakashi just dodged his attack by letting it slip through him, phasing through unscated. Then Kakashi dashes against her from the Susanoo and she doesn't react until she screams for the pain of the wound Kakashi just inflicted to her, Zetsu too doesn't react until Kakashi already ended his thrust. Kaguya doesn't even makes "!", she just directly screams in pain. Zetsu, who could react to both Sasuke and Naruto when they tried to attack Madara who was changing in Kaguya, couldn't react until he ended his thrust.

You mean Obito's self teleporting Kamui, that was stated to be less faster than his object teleporting, that was clearly shown to be less faster than phasing, that was shown to be equaled in speed by Kakashi's long range Kamui on a smal object (3). Rikudo DMS Kakashi is a lot faster than even his MS version that is already faster than Obito's.

Sasuke can't react to long range Kamui, can't hit due to Kamui phasing and can't counter Kamui Raikiri (as Kaguya couldn't and she has faster reactions and body speed than he does). 

If Kaguya could react to it and Naruto could react to it, Kakashi with comparable reactions/reflexes can dodge it with ease with Kamui phasing. Or just troll Sasuke with a Kage Bunshin swap. "Human" Kakashi could fool Pain even with his Rinnegan, and that was when his chakra didn't let him spam clones. With enough chakra to sustain Perfect Susanoo, Kakashi casually spams them and his skill is trickery on an absolute level. And if he fooled the Rinnegan when not a trascendent being, as a trascendent being he can fool a trascendent Rinnegan.

Either Kamui Shuriken creates a Kamui warp as big as a Perfect Susanoo, and Kakashi can spam at least four Kamui Shuriken together in a single row () (open the image and zoom on hit and you'll see if you aren't blind). If you then think that Sasuke's Enton Magatama are as big as a Perfect Susanoo, please tell me so I can rotfl before I buy you a pair of medical glasses.

Watch you face in the mirror before you call other people a clown. You should see that big red nose, that green hair right on your face.


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## sabre320 (Feb 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> No he said that its cooler than sasukes,
> cooler does NOT mean that its stronger,
> 
> 
> ...



Chakra amount is not a measure of power juubito has much greater chakra amount then sasuke yet sasuke out performs him rikudo kakashis feats are insane no point downplaying them kaguya casually reacted to sasukes space time tech yet could not react to kamui raikiri blitz to claim she decided not to do anything is laughable it was because she couldnt react madara saw  night gai coming but he could not react..and kakashi neautralized her space time technique with such speed and accuracy its amazing sasuke could not react to the same technique from a weaker kaguya same attack blitzed narutos clone..


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## Arles Celes (Feb 5, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Chakra amount is not a measure of power juubito has much greater chakra amount then sasuke yet sasuke out performs him rikudo kakashis feats are insane no point doenplaying them kaguya casually reacted to sasukes space time tech yet could not react to kamui raikiri blitz to claim she decided not to do anything is laughable it was because she couldnt react madara saw  night gai coming but he could not react..and kakashi neautralized her space time technique with such speed and accuracy its amazing sasuke could not react to the same technique from a weaker kaguya same attack blitzed narutos clone..



Eh, to be honest Kaguya needed her own s/t each time Sasuke used his own.

And during VoTE, Sasuke was able to smack RSM Naruto with Chidori thanks to Amenotejikara(granted he did not visibly hurt him but still hit him). Also I heard that its possible that Sasuke used his s/t when he blitzed Naruto's one of Naruto's RSM Kurama avatars: 
seeing how kaguya clearly saw him coming which means that she reacted, 
seeing how kaguya clearly saw him coming which means that she reacted, 

The same Naruto who reacted and dodged Kaguya's s/t attack and blitzed her once.

Its likely Sasuke did get better with it as he stated to have improved with his Rinnegan abilities AFTER his fight with Kaguya.

As for DMS Kakashi Vs Rinnegan Sasuke I guess it depends. Both their PS are most likely equally strong and fast(though maybe Sasuke is somewhat superior due to receiving half of RS chakra while Kakashi got only leftovers that Obito stole from Madara). Sasuke's PS chidori is better at close range while Kamui shuriken is better at long range. Kakashi cannot make his PS intangible though as Kaguya's bones damaged it. He can only make himself intangible.

If Sasuke can actually use his s/t with PS then he may attack Kakashi from behind and since Kakashi is not hyped as a sensor he may get killed if his PS is directly hit by Sasuke's chidori PS.

Kamui is quite versatile but I'm not sure if he can decapitate Sasuke with it, especially once he is experienced with Rinnegan.

Well, Sasuke with full mastery of Rinnegan and able to use Shinra Tensei, use Preta while attacking and use his own s/t to its fullest is probably to much for Kakashi.

Sasuke with Rinnegan mastery from Kaguya's fight may actually lose though unless Kakashi gets tired too soon.


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## ARGUS (Feb 6, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Don't try to downplay if you're just pulling things out of your ass, pal*.


Not an argument nor does it have any relevance to the topic, 
there is no downplaying at all, you being upset over it, doesnt mean that im overlooking the manga,



> *Kaguya's "!!" are for the fact that Kakashi just dodged his attack by letting it slip through him, phasing through unscated.*


The exclamation mark was due to the surprise that kakashi phased through her attack after it literally drilled through the susanoo, and even went through kakashi, 

and phasing through an attack =/= dodging, 
infact its a clear representation that the user was too slow to physically evade the attack hence why he used intangibility 



> Then Kakashi dashes against her from the Susanoo *and she doesn't react until she screams for the pain of the wound Kakashi just inflicted to her*,


except, *Kaguya saw him coming the second he attempted to use kamui raikiri* 
Seeing = Reacting,, 
so in no way shape or form is it a blitz, i dont see why its soo hard to grasp 



> *Zetsu too doesn't react until Kakashi already ended his thrust.* *Kaguya doesn't even makes "!", she just directly screams in pain*


*Helll even Zetsu sees kakashi coming once he phases through the susanoo, *
and as for the exclamation marks, both zetsu and kaguya had them 
i suggest you to read this scan very properly, because it seems that you are just ignoring everything that happened the page before kamui raikir landed 
*Spoiler*: __ 










> . Zetsu, who could react to both Sasuke and Naruto when they tried to attack Madara who was changing in Kaguya, couldn't react until he ended his thrust.


Except neither of them didnt eve use their shunshin, and zetsu saw kaguya coming, 
in no way is zetsu reacting to RSM narutos shunshin when even kaguya was blitzed by it, 
and in no way does zetsu have reactions above JJ madara, so he gets blited amenotejikara as well

and I think you need to understand that being unable to physically evade something doesnt mean that you are blitzed, 



> You mean Obito's self teleporting Kamui, that was stated to be less faster than his object teleporting, that was clearly shown to be less faster than phasing, that was shown to be equaled in speed by Kakashi's long range Kamui on a smal object (3).


Long Range Kamui and Short Range kamui are exactly the same in warping speed, it all depended on who had the timing right, in which case kakashi got it correct, 

their kamui movements were stated to be slower than madaras attacks by madara and obito, themselves, so ill take their word for it, and say that TSB >> Single Kamui intterms of speed  


and 

yet this same  let alone RSM naruto whose speed and reflexes are on an entirely different tier, 

and sasukes shunshin alone was too fast for madara to physically evade, whilst amenotejikara outright blitzed him with no reaction whatsoever, 
indicating that the speed of kamui is nothing for sasuke  based on scaling 
he reacts and evades with utmost ease, and the instant kakashi is within his range, he gets a sword shoved through his chest and dies 

so in conclusion, in terms of speed we have, 
RSM naruto > Amenotejikara > Limbo > Double Kamui > TSB > Single Kamui, 



> Rikudo DMS Kakashi is a lot faster than even his MS version that is already faster than Obito's.


No its not, and youre going to need to prove this 
DMS kamui from rikudo kakashi would still have the same warping speed as kamui used from a non rikudo DMS Obito  
rikduo chakra is just a boost like kurama chakra, albeit a much better boost, 
yet the same kurama chakra didnt seem to increase the speed of kakashis kamui, only the scale and power of the jutsu, 
the rikudo boost doesnt change the properties of the jutsu, only its power and scale, so rikudos chakra or  not, the speed of the kamui would stil be the same 



> *Sasuke can't react to long range Kamui,*


THe same kamuis speed which was reacted and shat on by even Base Minato,? 
Sasukkes reflexes > even JJ Madaras >>>>>  Base Minatos, 
so he reacts and evades with easiest of difficulties 



> can't hit due to Kamui phasing


the instant kakashi solidifies to attack is when he gets stabbed in by a sword, 
Sasuukes reflexes and speed > Kakashis 
Amenotejikara >> Kamui, 
so hes definitely getting hit 



> and can't counter Kamui Raikiri (as Kaguya couldn't and she has faster reactions and body speed than he does).


Databook has already stated that kamui raikiri warps what it pierces, 
so Sasuke uses preta to absorb the raikiri and completley negates the jutsus itself, 
i have already addressed the misconception that you have regarding kaguya 



> If Kaguya could react to it and Naruto could react to it, *Kakashi with comparable reactions/reflexes can dodge it with ease with Kamui phasing*.


Proof? 
nothing suggests that kakashi has reflexes comparable to RSM naruto, 
hell what reaction feats does he even have in his DMS  form? 
apart from kamui raikiri which is an attacking feat not a reflexive feat 



> Or just troll Sasuke with a Kage Bunshin swap.


Annd what good is that doing to kakashi, 
how is sasukes even getting tricked? 



> "Human" Kakashi could fool Pain even with his Rinnegan, and that was when his chakra didn't let him spam clones.


the only one who can see through shadow clones is madara, no one else, 
so anyone with KB can fool a dojutsu user 



> With enough chakra to sustain Perfect Susanoo, *Kakashi casually spams them and his skill is trickery on an absolute level. *


He was down on his knees within a matter of minutes of DMS, 
he is not spamming clones, using PS, and doing any of that casuallly, 
if he uses PS then there is only going to be one of them



> And if he fooled the Rinnegan when not a trascendent being, as a trascendent being he can fool a trascendent Rinnegan.


what is a clone even doing here? 



> Either Kamui Shuriken creates a Kamui warp as big as a Perfect Susanoo, and Kakashi can spam at least four Kamui Shuriken together in a single row ()


Umm, Kamui shuriken are a least of sasukes worries, 
enton projectiles counter them just fine, 
they hit the shuriken and the shurriken warp away, problem solved, 

Yasaka Magatama  can be used as  well, so can a PS sword, or a PS  can just swing its blade, blow away the shuriken and make them vanish 

hell the PS could even just evade them,  



> *open the image and zoom on hit and you'll see if you aren't blind).*


you resorting to insults, leads me to believe that you have ran out of your  arguments 




> If you then think that Sasuke's Enton Magatama are as big as a Perfect Susanoo, please tell me *so I can rotfl before I buy you a pair of medical glasses*.


They dont have to be as big as a PS, 
the flames hit the shuriken, and the shuriken warp the flames and themselves away, thats how they operate,, 



> *Watch you face in the mirror before you call other people a clown. You should see that big red nose, that green hair right on your face*.


Kakashi gets clowned  by either naruto or sasuke individually, 
i didnt call anyone a clown, you being that  butthurt over fictional characters is just sad, 

after looking at your placement of  DMS kakashi being above everyone but kaguya and hagoromo, leads me to believe that maybe you really are a clown  



sabre320 said:


> Chakra amount is not a measure of power juubito has much greater chakra amount then sasuke yet sasuke out performs him


When it comes to susanoo, the chakra amount and quality are  the exact measure of power, seeing how susanoos power originates form the power of the users chakra, 
and sasukes chakra >>> kakashis,, 

your exammple of juubito is completely wrong and irrelevant



> rikudo kakashis feats are insane no point downplaying them


Im not downplaying them, 
he is just below the likes of rikudo naruto and sasuke, 
itss not that hard to grasp that, 



> kaguya casually reacted to sasukes space time tech yet could not react to kamui raikiri blitz to claim she decided not to do anything is laughable it was because she couldnt react


Except it was CIS/PIS at its finest, 
*she saw him coming which = a reaction, * meaning that she wasnt bltized 
she couldve instantly teleported  away the moment she saw him coming, but didnt,  despite the fact that she reacted, 
hell she couldve even evaded kakashi ON FOOT, just how she evaded sasuke, the moment she saw him coming, 



> madara saw  night gai coming but he could not react..


Umm madara seeing night guy meansa that he reacted, 
he was just physically unable to evade him, 
one can react  to speeds well above his own, and this was exactly the case for madara as he lacked the means to evade his attacks thats all there is to it  



> and kakashi neautralized her space time technique with such speed and accuracy its amazing


Kakashi warped away the ash bones before they do any harm to naruto and sasuke, 
in no way shape  or form does that mean that he neutralised them 



> sasuke could not react to the same technique from a weaker kaguya same attack blitzed narutos clone..


naruto was never blitzed, 
sasuke reacted to kaguya as welll, the only thing was that he was unable to evade it, due to his instant S/T being on a cooldown, and the fact  that yomutsu hirasaka is much faster than his shunshin


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## heartsutra (Feb 6, 2015)

Kaguya
Hagoromo
Rikudo Naruto
Rikudo Sasuke
Madara/Obito/Itachi
Toneri
Kakashi/Gai

Not sure about Itachi & Toneri.


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 11, 2015)

You know what? How can we really state how strong JJ 3 eyed Madara was compared to what Naruto showed as well as Sasuke? I honestly believe either of the VOTE 2.0 versions of Naruto and Sasuke could have slaughtered JJ 3-eyed  Madara.


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## Zef (Feb 11, 2015)

Already explained why VOTE Naruto, and Sasuke beat 3 eyed JJ Madara. 



Only people above Naruto, and Sasuke are Hagoromo, and Kaguya . Even Hagoromo is debatable if we consider how much stronger Naruto, and Sasuke are in 700 to their 17 year old counterparts . Sasuke had Rinnegan for a few hours, and was already showing Hagoromo level feats . Sasuke with full Rinnegan mastery......


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## TheGreen1 (Feb 11, 2015)

Zef said:


> Already explained why VOTE Naruto, and Sasuke beat 3 eyed JJ Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> Only people above Naruto, and Sasuke are Hagoromo, and Kaguya . Even Hagoromo is debatable if we consider how much stronger Naruto, and Sasuke are in 700 to their 17 year old counterparts . Sasuke had Rinnegan for a few hours, and was already showing Hagoromo level feats . Sasuke with full Rinnegan mastery......



I must agree with you here. I'm pretty sure that either Ch 700 Sasuke or Naruto could have soloed JJ Madz, if not even Kaguya assuming they had the sealing abilities to do so.


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## Zef (Feb 11, 2015)

Kaguya is a stretch due to her dimension switching powers, and what not. Take that away, Naruto & Sasuke stomp her. She can also use a giant Goudama to erase dimensions, but I think Infinite Tsukuyomi is required for that.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 11, 2015)

> Remember, a half dead Obito phased through Madara's physical attack and extracted some bijuu chakra from him. Madara was also surprised by the ability.



Except Obito used that Tailed Beasts chakra and senjutsu chakra to dodge Juubidara's physical attack.


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## ARGUS (Feb 11, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> I must agree with you here. I'm pretty sure that either Ch 700 Sasuke or Naruto could have soloed JJ Madz,* if not even Kaguya assuming they had the sealing abilities to do so*.



Uhh, No, Kaguya clowns them individually, 
gigantic TSB alone would turn them to dust 



Zef said:


> Only people above Naruto, and Sasuke are Hagoromo, and Kaguya . *Even Hagoromo is debatable if we consider how much stronger Naruto, and Sasuke are in 700 to their 17 year old counterparts* . Sasuke had Rinnegan for a few hours, *and was already showing Hagoromo level feats .* Sasuke with full Rinnegan mastery......



Nope, hagoromo is not debatable at all,, 
and in no way shape or form was sasuke showing hagoromo level feats, 
the only thing that was hagoromo level was how he was utilising the bijuu chakra, 

his rinnegan feats are were damn primitive seeing how he couldnt even use kagutsuchi and preta at the same time, thats inferior to even nagato 

it was Non Jin hagoromo who gave naruto and sasukee their powerups, 
so if we add their extra boosts such as BPS and Ashura avatar, then at the absolute max, they get to non jin hagoromos level, 

prime jin hagoromo clowns them, be it their adult forms or their vote forms 



Zef said:


> Kaguya is a stretch due to her dimension switching powers, and what not. Take that away, Naruto & Sasuke stomp her. She can also use a giant Goudama to erase dimensions, but I think Infinite Tsukuyomi is required for that.



Nah, IT is not needed for Giant TSB,,  why would it be? 
her rinne sharingan allows her to cast it rather quickly anyways 

kaguya doesnnt necessarily need amenominaka to take out sasuke either, 
saying that he sstomps her is way too far fetched


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## Ersa (Feb 11, 2015)

Considering how fucking strong Naruto and Sasuke got between chapter 699 and The Last I'd bank on EoS Sasuke/Naruto clowning the fuck out of Hagoromo and losing to Kaguya. Naruto's Bijuu Sage Mode went from getting tossed around by Juubito to matching someone who cut the moon in half. Yeah look if he had used Rikudo Mode in the movie then fuck.


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## Zef (Feb 11, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Considering how fucking strong Naruto and Sasuke got between chapter 699 and The Last I'd bank on EoS Sasuke/Naruto clowning the fuck out of Hagoromo and losing to Kaguya. Naruto's Bijuu Sage Mode went from getting tossed around by Juubito to matching someone who cut the moon in half. Yeah look if he had used Rikudo Mode in the movie then fuck.


Yup, the hype is real.


ARGUS said:


> Uhh, No, Kaguya clowns them individually,


Individually Naruto tore her arm off, and she was forced to switch dimensions less she got a Chidori to the head. 


> gigantic TSB alone would turn them to dust


Is this not what I implied in my post, or did you skip over that?
Yes, if IT is active, then she uses that Goudama to erase Naruto, and Sasuke. 



> Nope, hagoromo is not debatable at all,,



When Hagoromo is showing surprise to powers he supposedly gave Naruto, and Sasuke I'm inclined to disagree.



> and in no way shape or form was sasuke showing hagoromo level feats,
> the only thing that was hagoromo level was how he was utilising the bijuu chakra,


> Says Sasuke didn't show Hagoromo level feats
> Goes on to admit the utilization of Bijuu chakra was on Hagaromo's level. 

Thanks for agreeing with me.



> His rinnegan feats are were damn primitive seeing how he couldnt even use kagutsuchi and preta at the same time, thats inferior to even nagato


Yet this put Hagoromo in awe.

*Spoiler*: __ 









And Nagato couldn't muster a feat like this.

To an inferior version of Kurama. Or any other Bijuu if he had the chance. 

But go on, do tell me more.Your posts contradicts itself......or rather Kishi does. Sasuke can mix Bijuu chakra on Hagaromo's level with Rinnegan yet because he can't absorb, and attack at once his use of it is "primitive".



> It was Non Jin hagoromo who gave naruto and sasukee their powerups,


Because non jinchūriki have Goudama, and can float right?



> So if we add their extra boosts such as BPS and Ashura avatar, then at the absolute max, they get to non jin hagoromos level,


Already addressed the flaw in this above. 



> prime jin hagoromo clowns them, be it their adult forms or their vote forms


Same as above. 



> Nah, IT is not needed for Giant TSB,,  why would it be?
> her rinne sharingan allows her to cast it rather quickly anyways


..............Wow



Seriously......




> kaguya doesnnt necessarily need amenominaka to take out sasuke either,
> saying that he sstomps her is way too far fetched


Nah, it's all in the realm of possibility with Kishi's power inflation.


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## Empathy (Feb 12, 2015)

Kaguya
Hagoromo (Juubi jinchuuriki)
Madara (three-eyes)
Naruto
Sasuke
Madara (one-eye)
Gai
Obito
Kakashi
Itachi
I don't really know who Toneri is. Hagoromo stated that 699 Sasuke (and Naruto by transitive extension) reached his and Madara's (at his zenith) level. It's unclear if Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Hagoromo and Madara (they might've, being the main characters and all), or if Hagoromo was referring to himself as a Juubi jinchuuriki or not. I don't think Hagoromo meant himself as the Juubi's jinchuuriki though, as he wasn't that at the present juncture he was speaking in. Hagoromo, Hamura, Indra, and Asura are nebulous and all difficult to gauge. If I had to guess, I'd peg Hamura to be slightly underneath 699 Naruto and Sasuke, Hagoromo, and three-eyed Madara, but still in the same tier. 

He's got their same standing, but not the portrayal. Indra and Asura could be slightly weaker than Naruto and Sasuke during their Kaguya fight, or marginally inferior to their 699 incarnations (I'd hazard a guess toward the former, but it's speculative). I'm also unsure if _Shimon_ Gai is slightly weaker or slightly stronger than Juubi jinchuuriki Obito. If Kakashi and Gai aren't at the zenith of their powers, then I guess I could put them under Itachi. It's hard to rank everyone as definitively stronger or weaker than each other, but much easier to separate them into distinct tiers with no real particular order within tiers:


*Tier I*​
Kaguya
Hagoromo (Juubi jinchuuriki)

*Tier II*​
Hagoromo
Madara (three-eyes)
699 Naruto
699 Sasuke
Hamura

*Tier III*​
Madara (one-eye)
Gai
Obito
Kakashi

Kakashi could be in a fourth tier of his own, but I could see him giving Gai or Obito a close fight due to hax and him not being too far behind in terms of transcendence. Naruto and Sasuke packaged together like during the Kaguya fight, would be in tier III. Maybe I could add a 3.5 tier and put those two there individually along with Indra and Asura, if I conjecture their place there. If I included Itachi, I'd have to make another tier, and then another tier for normal Kakashi and Gai.


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## ARGUS (Feb 12, 2015)

Zef said:


> Is this not what I implied in my post, or did you skip over that?
> Yes, if IT is active, then she uses that Goudama to erase Naruto, and Sasuke.


except constructs are meaningless to kaguya, when in ffront oof things like ash bones and 80 gods vacuum attack, so even this is not needed to bust their constructs and take them out 
as for the TSB, not seeing what IT has to do with it, 
read the next panel, on the scan that you have provided 



> When Hagoromo is showing surprise to powers he supposedly gave Naruto, and Sasuke I'm inclined to disagree.


yeah but surprise has got nothing to  do with admitting inferiority,  
kcm naruto and ems sasuke were surpprised at sakuras power 
now does that make them inferior to her?  No it doesnt 

sasuke has no chance against hagoromo at all  due to the reasoons speciifed 



> > Says Sasuke didn't show Hagoromo level feats
> > Goes on to admit the utilization of Bijuu chakra was on Hagaromo's level.


yeah,doesnt mean that he is just as powerful as hagoromo, so try again 
utilising chakra in a similar way is not an indication of having the same power as someone else



> Yet this put Hagoromo in awe.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


In awe?, he was surprised, in no way shape or form does that mean that hes admitting inferiority, 
whats even a bigger fail is that youre showwing sasukes feat of taking out the bijuu as a way of stating that hes superior to hagoromo, yeah thats really dumb 

seeing how even rinnegan tobi and RT madara were able to take the bijuu captive and utilise them, hagoromo being surprised of that as  welll, should never mean that he is weaker 

how on earth can someone be stronger than someone who has all of his of power as well as six path senjutsu,, and the other yang half, as well as the juubi, ? 



> And Nagato couldn't muster a feat like this.
> 
> To an inferior version of Kurama. Or any other Bijuu if he had the chance.


Nagato still had CT, him not having stronger eyes or stronger chakra doesnt mean that his usage is inferior 
the scale of the technique is obviously on sasukes favor, but unlike him, nagato wasnt the original owner nor did he have half of hagoromos chakkra to amp all of his techniques 



> But go on, do tell me more.Your posts contradicts itself......or rather Kishi does. Sasuke can mix Bijuu chakra on Hagaromo's level with Rinnegan yet because he can't absorb, and attack at once his use of it is "primitive".


Except he was alreadyy stated to be unable to use kagutsuchi and preta at the same time 
nagato on the other hand was using animal path, ningendo and preta path at the same time, against kcm naruto



> Because non jinchūriki have Goudama, and can float right?


You do know that the main requirment  for TSB is the six path senjutsu, the databook has already established that, 
being the juubi jin just automatically grants you the ten tails coffin seal which has six path senjutsu 

TSB has got nothing to do with being a jin, because even hamura had them,  and so did hagoromo, hell even Ashura most likely had  them 

and yes it was non jin hagoromo, because he was at his form when he died, which was the non jin self, and the juubi itself was within madara at  that stage, so how on earth could hagoromo have the extra juubi within him? 

his Yang self gave naruto the six path senjutsu, whilst his Yin self gave sasuke the rinnegan 
the juubi had nothing to do with that 



> Already addressed the flaw in this above.


You havnt  addressed anything at all, nice try though 



> ..............Wow
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously......


Did you even read the scan that you have just posted? 
BZ specifically states that kaguya managed to absorb enough chakra from the first dimension to form a TSB this large, it had nothing to do with IT itself 

combining all the chakra natures as well as Yiin and Yanng allowed her  to take out her TSB 




> Nah, it's all in the realm of possibility with Kishi's power inflation.


No its not, 

Sasukes chakra itself can develop and his usage of the rinnegan can develop more, 
but he cann never gain the extra Yang half, nor could he learn the Six path senjutsu, 
nor could his chakra be as powerful and as large as Full Hagoromos, 
nor could his rinnegan be as powerful as hagoromos when he was stated to have been able to use ALL of its techniques, the scale of them would also be much higher than sasukes and madaras ofcourse, 

now add the immense juubi boost to all of hagoromos techniques and the firepower of the juubi and he gets clowned 



Ersatz said:


> Considering how fucking strong Naruto and Sasuke got between chapter 699 and *The Last I'd bank on EoS Sasuke/Naruto clowning the fuck out of Hagoromo *and losing to Kaguya.


Even if naruto and sasuke collaborate its extremely far fetched to say that they would clown Hagoromo, 
and if you mean individually then i am just curious to see what your reasoning would be, because whatever it is, i doubt its correct  

non jin hagoromo > naruto ,    non jin hagoromo > sasuke 
jin hagoromo >>> naruto, jin hagoromo >>>> Sasuke 



> Naruto's Bijuu Sage Mode went from getting tossed around by Juubito to matching someone who cut the moon in half. Yeah look if he had used Rikudo Mode in the movie then fuck.


Except nnaruto was still utilising the rikudo chakra iin his BSM which allowed him to be that powerful 
he was flying around, and doing things that are impossible to do without any rikudo boost, so at the end of the day it isnnt just your normal BSM


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## Kai (Feb 13, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Except Obito used that Tailed Beasts chakra and senjutsu chakra to dodge Juubidara's physical attack.


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