# Itachi without Susano'o vs. Jiraiya & Tsunade



## Rocky (Feb 23, 2014)

*Location:* _Tunnels of Amegakure_
*Distance:* _25m_
*Knowledge*: 
_Scenario 1- Manga
Scenario 2- Full_
*Mindset:* _IC_
*Restrictions: *_Susano'o. Itachi is alive, but isn't sick._


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## obese (Feb 23, 2014)

Huh?  

Itachi:  "Jiraiya would wipe the floor with me!"
He engages anyways, Jiraiya wipes the floor with both of them.

Now, you want to nerf Itachi, and give jman a partner, and it's Tsunade to boot?  lol


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2014)

Oh god, not this Itachi can't beat Jiraiya argument again. Hide people....it's a STAMPEDE!

Well, I for one would like to know what the Sannins counter are to Ametarsu. Although, It hasn't exactly had a good showing of hitting people in the face, rather their torso. So if that happens, I guess removing the shirt or whatever as soon as possible could be a viable option.


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## Vice (Feb 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Oh god, not this Itachi can't beat Jiraiya argument again. Hide people....it's a STAMPEDE!
> 
> Well, I for one would like to know what the Sannins counter are to Ametarsu. Although, It hasn't exactly had a good showing of hitting people in the face, rather their torso. So if that happens, I guess removing the shirt or whatever as soon as possible could be a viable option.



Frog Song + Yomi Numa.


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## obese (Feb 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Oh god, not this Itachi can't beat Jiraiya argument again. Hide people....it's a STAMPEDE!
> 
> Well, I for one would like to know what the Sannins counter are to Ametarsu. Although, It hasn't exactly had a good showing of hitting people in the face, rather their torso. So if that happens, I guess removing the shirt or whatever as soon as possible could be a viable option.



Manga facts bro.... Itachi is way below Jiraiya.
It was said by Itachi.
It was demonstrated by the author.
Everything thus far justifies it is true.


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## eyeknockout (Feb 23, 2014)

if jiraiya started in SM then they'd probably win, but without jiraiya starting in SM, itachi disposes of them once he activate MS which will probably be quick since he already knows of jiraiya's reputation.


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## Trojan (Feb 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> Oh god, not this Itachi can't beat Jiraiya argument again. Hide people....it's a STAMPEDE!
> 
> Well, I for one would like to know what the Sannins counter are to Ametarsu. Although, It hasn't exactly had a good showing of hitting people in the face, rather their torso. So if that happens, I guess removing the shirt or whatever as soon as possible could be a viable option.



it's silly to think the Amatersu will end a sannin when it could defeat even fodders. Amatersu counter itself, that's how pathetic that jutsu is. 

Also, if you're so willing to go with "what can X do to Y jutsu" then what can itachi do against
Katsuyu, Yomi Numa, Frog Song, Frog call...etc

by your logic (and his fans) then itachi is weaker than Tayuya since he can't save himself from her genjutsu. (=


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2014)

New Folder said:


> Also, if you're so willing to go with "what can X do to Y jutsu" then what can itachi do against
> Katsuyu, Yomi Numa, Frog Song, Frog call...etc
> 
> by your logic (and his fans) then itachi is weaker than Tayuya since he can't save himself from her genjutsu. (=



It's not that, it's just that I believe Ameratsu is going to be the first technique played on the field at get go, since it's 2 on 1, and it's the fastest move. Hence I am asking, what techniques do they have that can counter it from the get go. So far I have gotten "It's shit" and "Frog Song + Yomi Numa", which have yet to justify my questions.


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## Trojan (Feb 23, 2014)

Jad said:


> It's not that, it's just that I believe Ameratsu is going to be the first technique played on the field at get go, since it's 2 on 1, and it's the fastest move. Hence I am asking, what techniques do they have that can counter it from the get go. So far I have gotten "It's shit" and "Frog Song + Yomi Numa", which have yet to justify my questions.



1- Jiraiya can seal it.
2- they can take their clothes off (lol).
3- Tsunade can redirect the fire jutsus as we saw against madara.
4- Katsuyu.
5- Jiraiya can use his barrier to know about anything.
6- they can keep their distance. 
7- block its way with another jutsu.
8- clones. 
9- kawarimi (not sure if I spelled that right!)
10- dust bombs

,,,etc


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## Jad (Feb 23, 2014)

New Folder said:


> 1-* Jiraiya can seal it.*



The first one is all you had to say. The other points are just you trying to create an unrealistic list, that I am sure someone else will refute. Jiraiya can seal the fires on them while Tsunade stands in front. That I can agree on.


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## Turrin (Feb 24, 2014)

Given the location and starting distance J-man solos and most likely w/o much difficulty considering how Itachi is handicapped here.

25m will give J-man enough time to pop a smokescreen and fall back into the tunnels of Amegakure to enter SM, and I have zero doubts that he'll enter SM right away given how much respect he showed for Itachi's powers after their Part I meeting.  From there SM J-man would dominates the match. Almost any offensive Jutsu J-man, Fusaku, or Shima use in SM Itachi will need Susano'o to defend against, which he doesn't have here. Heck Itachi would be lucky if he survived SM J-man utilizing his super strength leap + kicks, if he goes to try and block like he did against Kabuto he's dead as SM J-man kicks pack a much greater punch than Kabuto, and he doesn't have a magic Ksunagi sword here. So Itachi probably goes down fairly quickly. 

On Itachi's end of things. His Basic Ninjutsu won't even phase SM J-man and his Basic Genjutsu will be casually broken by the Ni-Dai-Sennin. The Ni-Dai-Sennin will sense when Itachi goes to use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu and warn J-man, allowing him to block LOS or disrupt Itachi w/ an attack that due to lack of Susano'o will be fatal [though the Ni-Dai-Sennin can also do so themselves]. 

If you want a handicapped Itachi to stand any chance against Jiraiya, you need to make the conditions, so J-man would have a very difficult time reaching SM, because once J-man reaches SM it's over for a Susano'o-less Itachi. And Itachi stands no chance against 2 Sannin, period.


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## Rawri (Feb 24, 2014)

Don't think Itachi can pull this off.  With such a restriction Itachi would only win if they had no knowledge on him.

Scenario 1 is not going to end well for Itachi. The only info they do not have about Itachi are his Totsuka Blade and Yata's Mirror, but Susano'o is banned. On the other hand, Itachi doesn't know much about either Jiraiya nor Tsunade.
Scenario 2 might go a little better for Itachi, but the outcome is the same imo.

edit: Forgot Izanami. Maybe he has a shot in scenario 1. Probably not though.


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## obese (Feb 24, 2014)

eyeknockout said:


> if jiraiya started in SM then they'd probably win, but without jiraiya starting in SM, itachi disposes of them once he activate MS which will probably be quick since he already knows of jiraiya's reputation.



Troll????  Tell me you are trolling!

Jiraiya High kage tier
Itachi - Healthy, might be mid Kage at best.  With susanoo restricted, Healthy Itachi is Low Kage at best.


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## Trojan (Feb 24, 2014)

Jad said:


> The first one is all you had to say. The other points are just you trying to create an unrealistic list, that I am sure someone else will refute. Jiraiya can seal the fires on them while Tsunade stands in front. That I can agree on.



 says  unrealistic 

2- they can take their clothes off (lol). Example of that is madara and the samurai 


3- Tsunade can redirect the fire jutsus as we saw against madara. Reread the managa and what she did to madaras dragons 

4- Katsuyu. She can use the same thing that the juubi did 

5- Jiraiya can use his barrier to know about anything. See obito and kabuto and how they dodged the Amaterasu when they sensed it coming 

6- they can keep their distance. Read the databook 
7- block its way with another jutsu. See what Gaara and obito did 
8- clones. How the hell is that unrealistic?? Itachi won't be able to know which one is real deal 

9- kawarimi (not sure if I spelled that right!) simple, I don't see what so hard about it ?? 
see Sasuke Vs itachi, he did that to get ride of the Amatersu

10- dust bombs. It works like the mist, if itachi can't see his target how is he going to hit him??
,,,etc

Long story short, you itachi fan can believe in whatever you want, but in reality 
Jman > itachi


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## Turrin (Feb 24, 2014)

Jad said:


> It's not that, it's just that I believe Ameratsu is going to be the first technique played on the field at get go, since it's 2 on 1, and it's the fastest move. Hence I am asking, what techniques do they have that can counter it from the get go. So far I have gotten "It's shit" and "Frog Song + Yomi Numa", which have yet to justify my questions.


At 25m LOS is going to be blocked in the tunnels of Amegakuru, as there is not a single Tunnel that was ever illustrated to be even close to that length, let alone in a straight shot. So basically Itachi would be in one Tunnel, while the Sannin would start in another Tunnel. But heck Amaterasu itself has never even been demonstrated to be used at 25m, in the DB it's list as a short-range Jutsu, and while some have speculated it can exceed that range in the form of a fireball that keeps traveling forward till it hits the target, that gives the Sannin more than enough time to make a move to block the incoming fireball. Or if we go by the other theory that Amaterasu's range can be expanded the more chakra that's put into it, than maybe one could argue it extending double the distance (10m), but 5x the normal distance (25m), is really stretching the limits of reality. No way is Amaterasu doing anything at the start of the match given the conditions. 

If the match started at 5m (maybe 10m) in a clear LOS battlefield than we could talk. Though even than Amaterasu requires an activation of MS & build up of chakra that takes enough time where the Sannin could make a move (Naruto warned B, B threw a sword, Nagato used ST, etc... before it went off). The Sannin's openings moves could easily disrupt this process or block LOS, depending on what Jutsu they used. Jiraiya has canonically started matches w/ Katon (would block LOS), Yomi Numa (would disrupt the casting), & Boss summon (would lift J-man/Tsunade out of LOS), etc...


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## LostSelf (Feb 24, 2014)

Itachi's Amaterasu shots were shown to be much bigger than Jiraiya and Tsunade combined. However, the size of cerberus could've helped in some way since he was looking at it and if he focuses only on the body of the enemies then he might not get to use a big shot here.

But that's some twisted speculation, if we ignore that, he can ignite both completely in one shot, but that's his only chance, if the sannins summon and gets to get around the jutsu, then i do not see how he wins here.

And come on with the scan of Itachi + Kisame + rest of Akatsuki losing to base Jiraiya, it was fun, but it's time to move on .


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 24, 2014)

Lostself, he burned through a katon with Amaterasu. 

They are larger than human size. 

No one is countering Amaterasu by removing clothing. That is fucking comical.


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## Krippy (Feb 24, 2014)

Itachi blazes these jokers. Anyone who thinks Jiraiya is gonna be able to summon the toad sages and enter SM while Itachi stands there and does nothing is full of shit. they might be able to pull it off with full knowledge but it will be with nothing less than high diff.


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## Ersa (Feb 24, 2014)

Itachi rushes in and sets Jiraiya on fire with Amaterasu nigh instantly, his Shunshin was so fast Base B couldn't react to it and he's tussled with perfect Sages capable of dodging arrows Kakashi couldn't avoid. Base Jiraiya lacks speed feats to suggest he can dodge Amaterasu and Tsunade is more or less around his speed, perhaps slower if we take DB into account. Unfortunately Jiraiya lacks the durability of the Hachibi nor the regeneration of Cerberus which Amaterasu killed anyway so he dies. Then it's a slightly tired Itachi with no Susanoo versus Tsunade and he wins by setting her on fire with Amaterasu and dodging her until she dies. Which won't be long as her regeneration isn't much if any better then Cerberus as she never tanked a FRS.

Start Jiraiya in SM and the duo may edge this out but they still lose to Edo Itachi.


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## LostSelf (Feb 24, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lostself, he burned through a katon with Amaterasu.
> 
> They are larger than human size.
> 
> No one is countering Amaterasu by removing clothing. That is fucking comical.



It's much bigger than that, though. Look at the size of the flames compared with Naruto's. And they were two shots too fucking big.

I don't know if he did it because he was aiming at such a big target like the Cerberus, but he did it. In my opinion is something to take in mind.


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## Ersa (Feb 24, 2014)

Shinobi can alter the size of their techniques.

So yeah if he wanted to he could simply increase the size of the shot of Amaterasu. The size matters little honestly, if he tags Jman with Amaterasu the latter dies. He can't seal while being burnt to death and removing clothing is pointless especially if the flames hit in the face. And before certain people pull out the borderline retarded notion that Amaterasu can't burn through clothes I invite you to look at fireproof toad stomach, Nagato's cloak, Bijuudama-tanking Hachibi and FRS-tanking Cerberus.

They are more durable then cloth.


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## ARGUS (Feb 24, 2014)

Itachi still wins this 

Theres literally no way that Jiraiya or Tsunade can counter amaterasu,, the attack is simply too fast and if theyre hit,,, then they would be completely incinerated,,, 
The starting distance here also makes it extremely difficult for the sannin to evade amaterasu,,, 
with manga/full knowledge i can see Itachi one shotting tsunade with amaterasu since the attack will keep on burning her,, thus rendering her byakugou useless,,, 

as for Jiraiya,, i really dnt see how he counters amaterasu as well,,while Jiraiya in SM is superior to Itachi in terms of CQC,, it is still an extremely stupid move since amaterasu would end up burning him,,,, or itachi can have a chance of putting jiraiya under a genjutsu
even if jiraiya manages to immobilise itachi it would still be in itachis favour since he can infact put jiraiya under a genjutsu,, not to mention tsukuyomi considering it can practically mind fk jiraiya in mere seconds,,,


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## Alex Payne (Feb 24, 2014)

If Jiraiya starts in SM his team should win with difficulties. In normal conditions though... Both Ama and Tsukuyomi are still OHKO when connected even with Sannins having soft counters. Healthy Itachi should be able to use both bunshins and MS more freely so even 1 vs 2 I see him performing well. 

Dealbreaker here is Jiraiya's willingness to use SM early. If he start with SM-prep right away while Tsunade fights Itachi I see Itachi killing Tsunade but wasting enough time for J-Man to enter SM. SM Jiraiya vs semi-tired restricted Itachi goes to Jiraiya more often than not. If Jiraiya tries to battle Itachi in Base together with Tsunade - then Itachi given his knowledge about Sage Mode and intelligence is likely to target him first and kill him. And then finish off Tsunade.

With manga knowledge I don't think that Jiraiya decides on SM. He has another Sannin as a back up and that Sannin is a woman he has feelings for(and he specifically stated that he disliked SM because it made him ugly). With full knowledge though... He'd know how dangerous and deadly Itachi so he _might _decide to not risk Tsunade's and his own life. 

Everything depend on Jiraiya's IC actions. And I personally don't think about them highly considering his tendency to fuck around and general confidence in his abilities. Going with Itachi winning this barely.


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## Rocky (Feb 24, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Start Jiraiya in SM and the duo may edge this out but they still lose to Edo Itachi.




Based on that analysis (Amaterasu soloes), what would starting in Sage Mode accomplish.


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## Ersa (Feb 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Based on that analysis (Amaterasu soloes), what would starting in Sage Mode accomplish.


Sage Mode reflexes boost allowed someone like Base Naruto who isn't particularly fast to outmaneuver and plant a Rasengan on someone comparable to V1 Ei in speed. Jiraiya is likely equal or faster then Naruto in base at that point I feel so he'll be far better equipped to deal with Shunshin + Amaterasu. He may opt for a clone or _Senpō: Kebari Senbon_.

So the increased reflexes gives him the time he needs to avoid the initial Amaterasu blaze I feel. He can't dodge Amaterasu but he can try abuse clones to avoid it or try pressure Itachi. Basically they win by exhausting him. And they can only do that if Jiraiya can somehow avoid the initial Amaterasu blaze which he can't do in base but potentially can do in Sage Mode.

At least that's how I see it.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 24, 2014)

obese said:


> Manga facts bro.... Itachi is way below Jiraiya.
> It was said by Itachi.
> It was demonstrated by the author.
> Everything thus far justifies it is true.



How many dupe accounts are you going to make, asstonine?



New Folder said:


> it's silly to think the Amatersu will end a sannin when it could defeat even fodders. Amatersu counter itself, that's how pathetic that jutsu is.



So pathetic it erases Bijuu off the face of the planet.



> Also, if you're so willing to go with "what can X do to Y jutsu" then what can itachi do against
> Katsuyu,



Avoid/incinerate.



> Yomi Numa,



Jump/chakra to the feet.



> Frog Song,



Preempt it.



> Frog call...



Susano'o, just like when he faced Kabuto's Hakugeki.



> etc



Genjutsu+kunai.



> by your logic (and his fans) then itachi is weaker than Tayuya since he can't save himself from her genjutsu. (=



That was Sage Kabuto's Genjutsu, not Tayuya's.



EDIT: All that aside, Itachi is at a big disadvantage here with Susano'o restricted. He might be able to take one of them out, but there's hardly any chance for him to defeat both.


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## Almondsand (Feb 24, 2014)

Alive Itachi is a misnomer unless you mean Sick Itachi.

Summons are useless against Itachi. He defeated/killed Cerberus. One move. Figured him out easy. J-Man not so smart didn't know how to kill it. Itachi used Kunai to eyeballs kill the other Rinnegan Summon.. Katsyu similar to Cerberus will take a Ama and be out of commission.. Boss Frog is also a big target. So J-man have to use SM.. but that takes a lot of time and no use of the hands. So Tsunade have to buy him time.. but Itachi will notice that J-man needs time and is much faster than Tsunade. He will more than likely feint a charging Tsunade.. Explode Kage Bunshin.. Shunshin feint to Jaraiya who might use that hair spike technique due to lack of hands and find himself hit with a Katon... and then exploding kunai hit the blind spot in the top of his head... Blown brains. 

Tsunade will most likely survive the impact of the feint by summoning her all healing technique.. Which will simply be met with Amaterasu and she will burn and keep healing.. Straight torture until she runs out of chakra.. and Itachi can just evade without doing much after.


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## Almondsand (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasuke use with AMA couldn't beat fodders. Itachi use with Amatarasu blown up a fire breathing frog stomach. He killed cerberus(whom no one can kill and can only get rid of if they kill the summoner) and if Nagato wasn't a edo, killed him too. This is why I argue that people use author portrayal and feats of characters.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 24, 2014)

It depends on how they initiate this. 

If they attack Itachi inside the tunnels, I'd say Itachi fries them with Amaterasu. The likehood of landing Amaterasu on both of them in such confined space is pretty damn high.

If they use smoke screen and back off, they might have a shot @ taking this by feinting Itachi to use Amaterasu on a clone or something, and later on blindside him. As hard as it may sound, it is within the realm of possibility.

This can go eitherway depending on how the initial stage plays out.


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## LostSelf (Feb 24, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Based on that analysis (Amaterasu soloes), what would starting in Sage Mode accomplish.



Sensing allowed Nagato to warn his team with enough time that Killer Bee was able to throw a sword at Itachi and Nagato had to protect him. If Jiraiya does the same, then the team should be able to put up a decent defense/ofense to avoid this. 

However, this would need adequate knowledge.


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## Jagger (Feb 24, 2014)

Okay Elia. Let's face facts here.

It's obvious Itachi was trying to cover his facade from Kisame explaining why they would need to retreat. Not to mention they were in enemy territory and, thus, they will eventually get swarmed by enemies attacking everywhere including a Sannin among them. They were at disadvantage.

Now, I want you to answer without using that one scan. How can Jiraiya beat both Itachi and Kisame at the same time? No, I want you to use real arguments based on facts.

If you don't, you'd also be admiting SM Madara > Juubito since the former said he could handle the latter.


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## Mithos (Feb 24, 2014)

With knowledge of Amaterasu, the Sannin can block LoS to counter Amaterasu. Jiraiya has canonically blocked LoS with Katon jutsus; he can also block it with his hair jutsu that extended extremely far away from him when he fought Pain, and if he has to he can seal the fire before it travels through his hair to his body; he can summon a Toad in front of him; or he can use a Kagebunshin. Tsunade can smash the ground and block LoS with the rubble, use a Kagebunshin, or summon Katsuyu who is a good counter to it because she can divide and avoid having most of her body burned. 

Itachi's genjutsu is countered by the partner method and summons to distract or protect them; mini-Katsuyus can ride on their shoulders and break them out if needed as well. They know not to make eye contact and both Sannin have fought Uchiha without falling to Sharingan genjutsu. 

Itachi's elemental jutsu aren't much of a problem. They can be countered by summons (toad water cannonballs, Katsuyu) or tanked and healed (Byakugou, Katsuyu remote healing). 

Itachi doesn't stand a chance here. The Sannin have numerous ways they can counter his MS jutsu if they work together, and without Susano'o he lacks the defense to not get overwhelmed by their superior numbers and synergy with each other and summons. The fact the location is a network of tunnels just makes it worse for him because he's suscepitble to Frog Song with very little chance of being able to prevent it.


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## Vice (Feb 24, 2014)

Frog song + Yomi Numa takes care of Itachi and Kisame's easily dealt with afterwords.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 24, 2014)

Vice said:


> Frog song + Yomi Numa takes care of Itachi and Kisame's easily dealt with afterwords.



3-Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu + kunai, GG Jiraiya.


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## Bonly (Feb 24, 2014)

Jiraiya+Tsunade should win more times then not. Without Susanoo Itachi lacks a good defense here so while he can take on+take out Tsunade, Itachi likely won't be able to take out Jiraiya, the fight might go on for a while but in the end Jiraiya would win unless Itachi got in a lucky Ama.


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## Trojan (Feb 24, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Okay Elia. Let's face facts here.
> 
> It's obvious Itachi was trying to cover his facade from Kisame explaining why they would need to retreat. Not to mention they were in enemy territory and, thus, they will eventually get swarmed by enemies attacking everywhere including a Sannin among them. They were at disadvantage.
> 
> ...



First of all they were not in the enemy territory as that was in another town. Second of all, my first post was based on fact which is the manga itself, I did not even wrote any word from myself. 

Also, although jman may or may not be able to defeat both of them, but
1- that's only a scenario from the fans, kishi is not bound about what the fans think
Would you have thought that sasori and deidara can be defeated by sai? Yeah, I did not think so as well. 

2- in the manga the SM users are portrayed to be superior to the MS users. 

3- itachi fans were/are thinking that itachi is portrayed to be with minato, so when naruto surpassed jman, Sasuke surpassed oro rather than itachi. However, the last chapter shat in that completely. 

Kishi portrayed jman and itachi to be around the same level with jman being the superior one. Hence, SM & MS were given to naruto and Sasuke around the same time when the former two died. 
And since SM is superior to MS, Naruto also was superior to Sasuke at that time. 

I don't buy itachis fans fanfiction scenario, hell. By their way itachi can defeat hashi, minato, naruto...etc but things do not go this way in the manga. 

Finally, I really do not care whether you want itachi to be superior or not, that's your own opinion, but surely he is not in the manga.


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## Jagger (Feb 24, 2014)

Vice said:


> Frog song + Yomi Numa takes care of Itachi and Kisame's easily dealt with afterwords.


So Jiraiya can automatically prepare Frong Song out of nowhere despite he still needed time to gather and balance enough NE to create Senjutsu? And not to mention the Toad Chant takes time as well.

Also, I feel like Kisame and Itachi are just white walls standing there while Jiraiya prepares his jutsu, which isn't really going to happen.


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## Jagger (Feb 24, 2014)

New Folder said:


> First of all they were not in the enemy territory as that was in another town. Second of all, my first post was based on fact which is the manga itself, I did not even wrote any word from myself.


>Implying the battle won't attract unwanted attention and that will just put them in a disadvantageous scenario once more. Not to mention Gai was on his way as well.



> Also, although jman may or may not be able to defeat both of them, but
> 1- that's only a scenario from the fans, kishi is not bound about what the fans think
> Would you have thought that sasori and deidara can be defeated by sai? Yeah, I did not think so as well.


Zetsu never thought Pain could lose to Naruto. Look what happened. Konan thought was unbeatable. Madara thought he could beat Juubito when feats tell us otherwise. 

Zetsu also considered Obito worthless trash and now he trolled them both. Just because a character states something doesn't mean it's automatically truth. They have an objective point of view and we all know very well how Itachi was trying to protect his secret mission from the eyes of the other members of Akatsuki.

Obito said he was Madara at some point. Does that mean there's a plot hole because of what he said was automatically a undeniable statement?



> 2- in the manga the SM users are portrayed to be superior to the MS users.


So you're telling me Jiraiya can beat Obito? Or Sasuke? Also, the Rinnegan user Pain was defeated by the Sage Naruto. Does that mean Jiraiya > Pain?

I mean, that's what you're implying to me through this weird power-scaling.



> 3- itachi fans were/are thinking that itachi is portrayed to be with minato, so when naruto surpassed jman, Sasuke surpassed oro rather than itachi. However, the last chapter shat in that completely.


Everyone with a brain knows Minato became superior than Itachi with the additon of the Kyuubi chakra (and, specially, when he activated Bijuu Mode). 

Also, you can make a reasonable case for Minato instead of "LOL PORTRAYAL EVERYWHERE". This is not what you're applying here.



> Kishi portrayed jman and itachi to be around the same level with jman being the superior one. Hence, SM & MS were given to naruto and Sasuke around the same time when the former two died.
> And since SM is superior to MS, Naruto also was superior to Sasuke at that time.


Portrayal, portrayal, Elia. This is not what I asked in my earlier post.



> I don't buy itachis fans fanfiction scenario, hell. By their way itachi can defeat hashi, minato, naruto...etc but things do not go this way in the manga.


I'm not even close to a fan of Itachi and I believe he's quite overrated in some aspects, but here you see me, defending him in this particular match (Kisame and Itachi vs Jiraiya, not Itachi vs Jiraiya).



> Finally, I really do not care whether you want itachi to be superior or not, that's your own opinion, but surely he is not in the manga.


Elia, where are you getting this?

I never said Itachi was superior than Jiraiya or viceversa. I'm just asking you how would Jiraiya win in a 2v1 match against two of the most powerful members of Akatsuki. That's all I'm saying.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 24, 2014)

Can't believe some of the fuckery going on in this thread.

 Honestly not understanding what keeps Itachi from sinking right off the bat. 

Anyone arguing for Itachi... come on now.... be reasonable....


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## Vice (Feb 24, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Can't believe some of the fuckery going on in this thread.
> 
> Anyone arguing for Itachi... come on now.... be reasonable....



Yep.

Not going to read through this whole thread, but I hope people aren't forgetting that both Sannin have boss and other summonings to rely on too.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 24, 2014)

Considering the fact that base jiraiya was willing to actively engage with both kisame and itachi, i don't see him retreating and attempting to go into sage mode off the bat, or even using smoke bombs and disappearing into tunnels.

  he will likely try to engage offensively with his fellow Sannin, and will be grilled to a crisp with amatarasu.


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## Veracity (Feb 24, 2014)

Itachi loses very badly if he doesn't immediately( and I mean IMMEDIATELY) blast either Tsunade or Jirayia in the face with AMA at the very start.

If Tsunade or Jirayia manage to summon basically anything , then Itachi gets absolutely ass raped.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 24, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Itachi loses very badly if he doesn't immediately( and I mean IMMEDIATELY) blast either Tsunade or Jirayia in the face with AMA at the very start.
> 
> If Tsunade or Jirayia manage to summon basically anything , then Itachi gets absolutely ass raped.



Maybe in scenerio 2, if full knowledge counts for the summons as well.


in scenerio 1 tsunade and jiraiya are casually blazed when attempting to summon, or the summons themselves are controlled and turned against them, which i consider possible due to hebi sasuke controlling manda without much difficult, itachi is the genjutsu king and that shouldn't be to hard at all.


All honesty tho jiraiya is very arrogant and probably wouldn't summon off the bat, after all he was willing to fight both itachi and kisame, with just itachi and tsunade backing him up, i really don't see him summoning anything at the start.


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## Ersa (Feb 24, 2014)

Base Jiraiya and Tsunade aren't on Itachi's tier. Suggesting that Itachi can win this is no different from suggesting a Jounin can defeat two Chunin. Especially since a main portion of Jiraiya's power is not available from the getgo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 24, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Can't believe some of the fuckery going on in this thread.
> 
> Honestly not understanding what keeps Itachi from sinking right off the bat.
> 
> Anyone arguing for Itachi... come on now.... be reasonable....



Nice bait, young padawan.


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## Veracity (Feb 25, 2014)

Bkprince33 said:


> Maybe in scenerio 2, if full knowledge counts for the summons as well.
> 
> 
> in scenerio 1 tsunade and jiraiya are casually blazed when attempting to summon, or the summons themselves are controlled and turned against them, which i consider possible due to hebi sasuke controlling manda without much difficult, itachi is the genjutsu king and that shouldn't be to hard at all.
> ...



Blazed or blitzed ? Blazed is a no because Itachi had never once started off with Amaterasu, because it very quickly ends to him being blind.

Blitzed is even worse to be honest lol. Someone who couldn't blitz base bee is not blitzing a Sannin member. v1 bee was pretty causally dodged by a airborne MS Sasuke who isn't even known for great physical speed, and was also reacted to by Kisame who also isn't very fast.

Itachi may be able to Genjustu a toad( not taking into account partner method), but Katsuyu due to it's hive brain mind+ partner method is most certainly never getting caught in Genjustu.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 25, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nice bait, young padawan.



Your counter to Yomi Numa was flawless. 

Itachi one shots with Amaterasu: Duuuur, he's the king, tat attk is 2 unavoidable. Literally, the ultimate technique. GG. Nice Itachin' bro 

Jiraiya one shots with Yomi Numa: Obvious wanker is obvious. Ban him for baiting..... This can't one shot Itachi because Itachi is Itachi. #mylogicistooserious, and furthermore Itachi solo's.


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## Ersa (Feb 25, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Your counter to Yomi Numa was flawless.
> 
> Itachi one shots with Amaterasu: Duuuur, he's the king, tat attk is 2 unavoidable. Literally, the ultimate technique. GG. Nice Itachin' bro
> 
> Jiraiya one shots with Yomi Numa: Obvious wanker is obvious. Ban him for baiting..... This can't one shot Itachi because Itachi is Itachi. #mylogicistooserious, and furthermore Itachi solo's.


Ad hominem is bad. Calling the other debater a wanker also makes your argument weaker.

Base Jiraiya will not opt for Yomi Numa off the bat, he has no reason to because he'll be overconfident. He was confident taking on the Kisame and Itachi by himself and now he's taking on Itachi alone with a fellow Sannin. Itachi's Shunshin + Amaterasu will come out a lot faster then Yomi Numa and if it lands then the Sannin lose.

Jiraiya literally has nothing to dodge it with considering the speed gap and he can't do anything when it hits. Tsunade basically falls in the same category except regeneration delays her death. Although not by much, ask Cerberus.


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## Mercurial (Feb 25, 2014)

The speed gap is astonishing, Itachi nearly blitzed base Bee. Jiraiya has no speed feats except for being foddered by armless Orochimaru (at that point he was no more hindered by drugs, because he could summon Gamabunta) and no speed hype for sure, Tsunade well it's not exactly fast and unpredictable. And Itachi has Sharingan. Genjutsu, blitzes and Amaterasu seal the deal.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 25, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Ad hominem is bad. Calling the other debater a wanker also makes your argument weaker.



Actually, I never called anyone a bad debater. 

I'll be back to respond to the rest, later.


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## Legendary Itachi (Feb 25, 2014)

Saying Yomi Numa solos is simply ignoring why Itachi can't one-shot that old man with Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu when Sharingan sees what seals he's forming. It'd be even worse if all it sinks is a Crow Bunshin.

But I forget this is Base Jiraiya, so I guess his Base Art can solo everything. :ignoramus


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## FlamingRain (Feb 25, 2014)

Jiraiya has already witnessed the effects of both _Tsukuyomi_ and _Amaterasu_ in person, and as the Hokage Tsunade would have already been debriefing her ninja for whatever information they retrieved during their missions on the workings of Itachi's Jutsu because he (like the remainder of Akatsuki) was a pressing enough potential encounter until his death. This information should have been shared with Jiraiya if he didn't already have enough of a grasp on Itachi's other basic abilities thanks to his spy organization looking into Akatsuki's business.

Not precluding this, Itachi shouldn't have a whole lot of information on either of them like he does Orochimaru.

Now, we've seen how Jiraiya behaves when pitted against a legendary Dōjutsu, which is retreat and bide for Sage Mode for optimal engagement, and even then he learned not to try and overpower it upfront, so I really don't expect the Sannin to willingly open with direct combat against the Uchiha when they have the chance to take the appropriate precautions with their comparatively safer expansive collection of espionage, interference, and supplementary abilities to play defensive pressure from a positional advantage.

_Amaterasu's_ invocation following the activation of the Mangekyō is not nearly as fast as the actual appearance of the flames themselves, so I see the hall being cut off with a quick _Katon: Endan_ before either of the Sannin get lit on black fire, providing them the cover to initially disappear. After that, Itachi's faced with the disadvantage of wandering into what would effectively be their domain, with a detection barrier feeling his activities and extra sets of miniature slug eyes observing his actions.

The halls are prone to randomly filling with Katons, being outright exploded and/or collapsed with herculean strength, turned into incredibly adhesive suctional puddles of Doton, becoming host to pools of acid, directly turning into pools of stomach acid, etc., and the Sharingan can't prevent Itachi from being thrown off by either fleeting or charging _Kage Bunshins_ of either Sannin. Because there is so much could go wrong even scouting with a clone won't be very beneficial, especially considering that the Sannin have far superior Chakra reserves; so even though Itachi's intelligent enough to recognize his predicament there isn't much he could do besides wait.

So considering that, Jiraiya will in all likelihood manage to gain the break he needs to successfully enter his heightened form, in which he could make even a one-on-one confrontation an uphill battle for an unrestricted Itachi Uchiha, and the Slug Princess, whose regeneration won't be overwhelmed by anything short of _Amaterasu_ to her main body, being there just makes everything worse for Itachi, who's likely to wind up trying to deal with multiple and unseeable attacks from each direction in _Fūton: Sunabokori_ without the protection of _Susano'o_, which can conceivably be circumvented itself.



Ersatz said:


> Itachi rushes in and sets Jiraiya on fire with Amaterasu nigh instantly, his Shunshin was so fast Base B couldn't react to it



If Bee couldn't react to Itachi's _Shunshin_ then warning him would have been meaningless because it was already being utilized at that point at which he was warned.

Itachi _snuck up behind_ Bee with the distraction provided by Nagato summoning those giant animals and obscuring the Jinchūrikis' sight. That is a _stealth_ feat, not a _speed_ feat, and Bee was able to make use of the warning, which was given only because Itachi was attacking from a blindspot, because it _wasn't_ so fast that he couldn't react to it. Needless to say that there is no such distraction for Itachi to capitalize on at the start of this fight.



> and he's tussled with perfect Sages capable of dodging arrows Kakashi couldn't avoid.



Kabuto dodged by a measly few inches and none of those exchanges were reflective of their movement speeds in relation to each other.



> Which won't be long as her regeneration isn't much if any better then Cerberus as she never tanked a FRS.



Ever considered that Tsunade's never tanked an _FRS_ largely because she's never faced one to begin with...?

Besides, the huge dent _FRS_ put in Cerberus's back was still there when Itachi lit it on fire despite all that happened between the attacks, and the thing hadn't even managed to get back on its feet either, so whatever regeneration it may have has nothing on _Byakugō_ to begin with because it didn't help it recover from _FRS_.



> Start Jiraiya in SM and the duo may edge this out but they still lose to Edo Itachi.



Sounds like a weak attempt at ad hominem to me.



> Base Jiraiya will not opt for Yomi Numa off the bat, he has no reason to because he'll be overconfident.



There is a difference between being laid back and actually being overconfident, but you're seriously misconstruing what being overconfident means in the first place. It doesn't by any stretch mean Jiraiya won't opt for _Yomi Numa_, because that isn't some reserved ultra secret technique or one that's difficult to cast for any reason.

Jiraiya being confident in taking on Itachi and Kisame doesn't diminish the chances of him opening with _Yomi Numa_, and he has more knowledge on Itachi now than he did when he first encountered him alongside Kisame, who would have had an antagonistic effect on Itachi's performance by virtue of the large difference in power similar to how Team Gai would have gotten in Sage Naruto's way against Pein, anyway.

And at the same time you're ignoring that Itachi himself admitted to being so overconfident that he believed there was nothing he couldn't do while he was alive; so why aren't you saying he won't open with _Amaterasu_ when he didn't start off with it against the other Sannin and it's actually a costly Jutsu _unlike Yomi Numa_, because he'll be overconfident?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 25, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Your counter to Yomi Numa was flawless.
> 
> Itachi one shots with Amaterasu: Duuuur, he's the king, tat attk is 2 unavoidable. Literally, the ultimate technique. GG. Nice Itachin' bro
> 
> Jiraiya one shots with Yomi Numa: Obvious wanker is obvious. Ban him for baiting..... This can't one shot Itachi because Itachi is Itachi. #mylogicistooserious, and furthermore Itachi solo's.



But young padawan, Amaterasu is executed faster than Yomi Numa. What makes you think Jiraiya can hit Itachi with Yomi Numa before Itachi can hit him with Amaterasu ? Especially when you consider that you only need a slight jump to counter one and as for the other... well lets say jumping won't help.


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## The World (Feb 25, 2014)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjYrxqfJ52w[/YOUTUBE]


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 25, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Blazed or blitzed ? Blazed is a no because Itachi had never once started off with Amaterasu, because it very quickly ends to him being blind.
> 
> Blitzed is even worse to be honest lol. Someone who couldn't blitz base bee is not blitzing a Sannin member. v1 bee was pretty causally dodged by a airborne MS Sasuke who isn't even known for great physical speed, and was also reacted to by Kisame who also isn't very fast.
> 
> Itachi may be able to Genjustu a toad( not taking into account partner method), but Katsuyu due to it's hive brain mind+ partner method is most certainly never getting caught in Genjustu.



Blazed, and its quite plausible considering he immediately used amatarasu on nagato, when he retained control of himself.


with both sannin's present and susano restricted i don't see why itachi wouldn't feel pressured enough to set one of them on fire.


i wouldn't compare either sanin to bee in terms of taijutsu skill, bee would manhandle base jiraiya in cqc. 

Not only that but itachi pressured bee threw out there skirmish and bee couldn't hit him.

Bee eventually forced him back with his sword dance but then again who wouldn't had been force back?


So its quite possible itachi can blitz or at very least pressure "base" jiraiya in a cqc exchange, tho i doubt he would take such a approach with tsunade present.



Tsunade very rarely uses katsuya in combat, and with jiraiya as back up and no knowledge, i doubt she would just whip out katsuya for the heck of it. i see jiraiya using smaller toads possibly but i don't see boss summons coming into play.

partner method is possible to dispel the toads but it won't be easy, I'm sure its harder to make physical contact with one of jiraiyas summons, then it is a regular person, also while he's doing this whats to stop itachi from capitalizing?


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## Ersa (Feb 25, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya has already witnessed the effects of both _Tsukuyomi_ and _Amaterasu_ in person, and as the Hokage Tsunade would have already been debriefing her ninja for whatever information they retrieved during their missions on the workings of Itachi's Jutsu because he (like the remainder of Akatsuki) was a pressing enough potential encounter until his death. This information should have been shared with Jiraiya if he didn't already have enough of a grasp on Itachi's other basic abilities thanks to his spy organization looking into Akatsuki's business.
> 
> Not precluding this, Itachi shouldn't have a whole lot of information on either of them like he does Orochimaru.


Which matters little honestly as base Jiraiya has shown no counter whatsoever to either and neither has Tsunade. And Itachi will go all-out from the beginning knowing he is facing two Sannin so a knowledge deficent on his part is not crucial. If he doesn't off Jiraiya or Tsunade off the bat then he probably loses. Either way knowledge is not the biggest factor here. It's the first few moments.



> Now, we've seen how Jiraiya behaves when pitted against a legendary Dōjutsu, which is retreat and bide for Sage Mode for optimal engagement, and even then he learned not to try and overpower it upfront, so I really don't expect the Sannin to willingly open with direct combat against the Uchiha when they have the chance to take the appropriate precautions with their comparatively safer expansive collection of espionage, interference, and supplementary abilities to play defensive pressure from a positional advantage.


Jiraiya behaves when alone, not when in a team.

Now he has someone he deems as equal he will probably opt for some form of duo combination attack given he has fought with Tsunade many times before and he hates SM's look.



> _Amaterasu's_ invocation following the activation of the Mangekyō is not nearly as fast as the actual appearance of the flames themselves, so I see the hall being cut off with a quick _Katon: Endan_ before either of the Sannin get lit on black fire, providing them the cover to initially disappear. After that, Itachi's faced with the disadvantage of wandering into what would effectively be their domain, with a detection barrier feeling his activities and extra sets of miniature slug eyes observing his actions.


Itachi managed to do all that before the toad stomach capable of catching Kisame managed to grab them. Amaterasu's charge time is overexaggerated. It should be faster then a Katon which requires seals. 



> If Bee couldn't react to Itachi's _Shunshin_ then warning him would have been meaningless because it was already being utilized at that point at which he was warned.


Eh not really, Itachi warned before attacking so B was given extra time to react. And we have to take into account author intent here, a warning clearly serves a purpose.



> Itachi _snuck up behind_ Bee with the distraction provided by Nagato summoning those giant animals and obscuring the Jinchūrikis' sight. That is a _stealth_ feat, not a _speed_ feat, and Bee was able to make use of the warning, which was given only because Itachi was attacking from a blindspot, because it _wasn't_ so fast that he couldn't react to it. Needless to say that there is no such distraction for Itachi to capitalize on at the start of this fight.


KCM Naruto could react to Itachi, Base B couldn't.

Also blind-siding someone is a nigh-blitz I feel. There are always distractions in fights, blitzes have still been countered despite that. Suigetsu countered Ei's blitz attempt despite the genjutsu at the Kage Summit. 



> Kabuto dodged by a measly few inches and none of those exchanges were reflective of their movement speeds in relation to each other.


That's still a speed feat, you have to have both the reflexes and speed to dodge it which Kakashi lacked. And Kakashi is faster then base Jiraiya and Tsunade. Itachi clone-feinted him and traded several times with him in CQC. At the very least the speed gap between them isn't big.



> Ever considered that Tsunade's never tanked an _FRS_ largely because she's never faced one to begin with...?
> 
> Besides, the huge dent _FRS_ put in Cerberus's back was still there when Itachi lit it on fire despite all that happened between the attacks, and the thing hadn't even managed to get back on its feet either, so whatever regeneration it may have has nothing on _Byakugō_ to begin with because it didn't help it recover from _FRS_.


Tsunade admitted an incomplete FRS was beyond her healing capabilities.

Now take that FRS, complete it and amp it with senjutsu/Kurama chakra. I don't think her claim is wrong. It destroys chakra cells which Byakogou probably requires.

It was still kicking after FRS and Nagato said not to attack it. It was not that damaged then Itachi put it down with Amaterasu.



> Sounds like a weak attempt at ad hominem to me.


Not attacking anyone. 

I don't think even an unrestricted sick Itachi can take SM Jiraiya and Tsunade. Start Jiraiya in base however and I think his chances are much higher even without Susanoo. SM is a big portion of his power. 



> There is a difference between being laid back and actually being overconfident, but you're seriously misconstruing what being overconfident means in the first place. It doesn't by any stretch mean Jiraiya won't opt for _Yomi Numa_, because that isn't some reserved ultra secret technique or one that's difficult to cast for any reason.


More confidence makes it less likely for him to use Yomi Numa and try some form of combination attack with Tsunade.



> Jiraiya being confident in taking on Itachi and Kisame doesn't diminish the chances of him opening with _Yomi Numa_, and he has more knowledge on Itachi now than he did when he first encountered him alongside Kisame, who would have had an antagonistic effect on Itachi's performance by virtue of the large difference in power similar to how Team Gai would have gotten in Sage Naruto's way against Pein, anyway.


Someone who can take on B and has Bijuu level chakra being useless against Jiraiya? Very doubtful. Kisame would lose to Jiraiya but put up a good fight. He thinks he over-estimated Jiraiya after he actually sees the latter in action. Having Kage level support is never bad unless you're facing someone like Madara.

And 7th Gated Gai and SM Naruto can defeat the weakened Pein Rikudo I feel.



> And at the same time you're ignoring that Itachi himself admitted to being so overconfident that he believed there was nothing he couldn't do while he was alive; so why aren't you saying he won't open with _Amaterasu_ when he didn't start off with it against the other Sannin and it's actually a costly Jutsu _unlike Yomi Numa_, because he'll be overconfident?


Itachi was overconfident in his ability to control and get things done. Like with Sasuke. In terms of fighting he was actually fairly modest, praising Gai and Kakashi despite being quite a bit stronger and never really being cocky like Jiraiya claiming to take both Akatsuki members out.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 25, 2014)

I don't find this to be much of a conversation. Itachi in base is weaker than Tsunade even with just mini Katsuya to break her out of genjutsu. Base Jiraiya is also stronger than Base Itachi. So individually these combatants are forcing Itachi to use the Mangekyou. Let's just look at Tsunade at first.

Tsunade with byakugou can heal from any damage so tsukiyomi is very well healed from as it is still damage just mental. That basically leaves Itachi with amaterasu to put her down after realizing his other methods all failed. And to be honest, this is not guaranteed to work. If she blocks with an arm or something like Hachibi did with a tentacle she might be able to rip off an arm or potentially continuously heal through it. Itachi in his weakened state from amaterasu and tsukiyomi usage will potentially be slowed enough for Tsunade to simply chase him down and end him. A little Katsuya added in just makes getting him easier. And this is assuming he does not have to use amaterasu to just defend himself from the acid from Katsuya as well.

Itachi can still win but Tsunade definitely can as well and that's what's key. The very fact that Itachi's victory comes down to the effectiveness of one jutsu that is not even guaranteed to put her down basically means that both parties could win. However, this is not Tsunade vs Itachi. Jiraiya is here too and believe it or not, he is stronger than Tsunade. If Tsunade can potentially solo then Jiraiay definitely can. On the same team, the victors are obvious.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Base Jiraiya and Tsunade aren't on Itachi's tier. Suggesting that Itachi can win this is no different from suggesting a Jounin can defeat two Chunin. Especially since a main portion of Jiraiya's power is not available from the getgo.



Not really accurate. Itachi at full power is more or less high kage level on a similar level to SM Naruto, MS Sasuke, etc. Tsunade at full power is more or less mid kage level while I would peg Jiraiya as being more so low-mid kage level in base and with HM more like mid-high kage level moreso leaning towards high kage level.

So it would be more like 1 low-mid kage level and a mid kage level fighting against a high kage level which is not ridiculous at all. Like Base Sasuke and Gaara vs SM Naruto.

But even that is inaccurate because Itachi is restricted to being more along the line of a mid kage level without Susano putting him on a similar level with Tsunade and also inferior to HM Jiraiya.

So it would be a low-mid kage level and a mid kage level vs a mid kage level. Oh and the low-mid kage level is for some reason holding back becoming a high kage level by going HM. 

Tsunade can potentially win this on her own. Jiraiya makes this a rape. Honestly restrict byakugou as well as HM for Jiraiya and give Itachi Susano. Then its a fight.


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## Rocky (Feb 26, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> Tsunade can potentially win this on her own.




Tsunade's entire fighting style revolves around evading or barreling through her opponent's techniques. Her game is an unbeatable defense, supplemented by her godslug. 

Amaterasu is a technique that doesn't care about most defenses, Tsunade's included. She cannot "tank & heal" from undying fire, nor can she continue to fight effectively once it has landed. 

Since Tsunade isn't big on speed (she doesn't need it), Itachi can simply fall back through the use of trickery (clones, illusions, etc.) and pick the opportune moment to use Amaterasu. She can't evade it, and once she's hit, she'll lose the ability to wear Itachi down by attrition with the Byakugo, which is how she would ultimately catch and smash him (if he couldn't use Amaterasu or the Totsuka sword). 




> Jiraiya makes this a rape. Honestly restrict byakugou as well as HM for Jiraiya and give Itachi Susano. Then its a fight.




How would (Manga) Base Jiraiya & Tsunade actually beat Itachi then? They lack the defense needed to deal with Susano'o. They may hold it off temporarily, but they won't outlast him before he pins them and kills them with a Dojutsu of his choice.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 26, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Amaterasu is a technique that doesn't care about most defenses, Tsunade's included. She cannot "tank & heal" from undying fire, nor can she continue to fight effectively once it has landed.
> 
> Since Tsunade isn't big on speed (she doesn't need it), Itachi can simply fall back through the use of trickery (clones, illusions, etc.) and pick the opportune moment to use Amaterasu. She can't evade it, and once she's hit, she'll lose the ability to wear Itachi down by attrition with the Byakugo, which is how she would ultimately catch and smash him (if he couldn't use Amaterasu or the Totsuka sword).
> 
> ...



Considering A had it on his arm and did not even flinch, the Queen of Resiliency should be okay to still move around and such while in pain. And A does not have byakugou. And as I particularly said if she puts her arm in front of her like Hachibi did against Sasuke's amaterasu she may be able to tear off an arm you know like Hachibi did, A did, etc to avoid the brunt of Amaterasu. And Hachibi can regrow limbs as can Tsunade due to her healing. 

That's fine if he tries to hit her with it but the genjutsu, taijutsu, katons, clones, etc will wear him down alone. Hell he may even attempt a tsukiyomi. He can potentially kill his chakra just testing the limits of her durability and then use an amaterasu. Assuming she doesn't tear off a limb or something and heal, she can still potentially catch him due to his subsequent exhaustion from all of the chakra usage as well as Katsuya. Her catching him is still indeed a possibility.

Would be interesting for sure. Probably require frog song and ample distraction.


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2014)

Itachi can ignite her body completely, not only an arm. Also, Amaterasu has never been reacted before unless it has been sensed, though.


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## Wolfstein (Feb 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But young padawan, Amaterasu is executed faster than Yomi Numa



Are you sure, master? If he decides to use Amaterasu, shouldn't Tsunade reach him by time his interaction with Jiraiya is done? He afford to take a full punch from Tsunade, trying to hit Jiraiya. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What makes you think Jiraiya can hit Itachi with Yomi Numa before Itachi can hit him with Amaterasu?



Nothing, master. Actually I'm not sure who hits who first. Depends on their individual IC actions, I guess (since Yomi Numa is fairly quick as well) Quite frankly, I've never seen Itachi start out with Amaterasu, or for that matter MS in general (bar the time he was an edo)




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Especially when you consider that you only need a slight jump to counter one and as for the other... well lets say jumping won't help.



But master, you can only counter Yomi Numa with a jump when you have full knowledge on it, otherwise you'd have to randomly anticipate it.


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## FlamingRain (Feb 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Which matters little honestly as base Jiraiya has shown no counter whatsoever to either and neither has Tsunade.



You seem to have missed my point. It is because they have no solid counter (specifically to _Amaterasu_) that I don't see them attempting direct combat when they have other ways to go about this fight.



> And Itachi will go all-out from the beginning knowing he is facing two Sannin so a knowledge deficent on his part is not crucial.



It is crucial, as running into the territory of two living legends without knowledge on what may happen is exceedingly dangerous, especially without _Susano'o_.



> Now he has someone he deems as equal he will probably opt for some form of duo combination attack given he has fought with Tsunade many times before



Not considering that Tsunade herself has no reliable defensive measure against _Amaterasu_ either. If neither teammate has an immediate solution to the problem they won't both go charging in, that'd just result in two defeats instead of one. What they want to do is retreat and think up a better strategy.



> and he hates SM's look.



Tsunade already knows about it, though. He can't blow his image in her eyes any more than he already has unless he wants to add "could get us killed because he can't swallow his pride" to the list, so this is inconsequential.



> It should be faster then a Katon which requires seals.



Jiraiya's hands were still shadows on separate sides of his body the first time he casted the technique, and apparently still separated the second time when his clone used it, so it doesn't matter whether it'd be faster than a hand-seal requiring Katon because this isn't one.

It's a spitting motion cutting off a hallway (as opposed to trying to actually catch a fleeting Itachi like _Gamaguchi Shibari_) versus activating the Mangekyō, charging _Amaterasu_, and _Amaterasu_ traversing the remainder of the distance to actually reach its targets.



> Eh not really, Itachi warned before attacking so B was given extra time to react. And we have to take into account author intent here, a warning clearly serves a purpose.



Itachi had already moved before giving the warning, therefore Itachi's _Shunshin_ couldn't have been so fast that Bee was unable to react, because if it were he wouldn't even register the warning until it was too late.

I've already told you what the true purpose of that warning was; tipping off Bee to someone trying to attack from a blind spot. Nothing suggests the author's intent is opposed to what I've stated.



> KCM Naruto could react to Itachi, Base B couldn't.



The Katon broke line of sight momentarily, during which Itachi swapped with a clone, that's another _stealth_ feat. Naruto reacted because he could sense, unlike Bee.

If a Katon breaks line of sight here the Sannin are just going to take that opportunity to escape while Itachi can't see them either (since he can't leap over it while in the tunnels).



> Also blind-siding someone is a nigh-blitz I feel.



Sneaking up on someone without being seen or otherwise detected in the first place isn't synonymous with possessing the sheer speed sufficient to escape from their field of vision when attentive, which is the only way you could have possibly used that particular statement to justify what you suggested earlier.



> Suigetsu countered Ei's blitz attempt despite the genjutsu at the Kage Summit.



Since when was Suigetsu even subjected to the Genjutsu?



> That's still a speed feat,



For Kabuto.



> you have to have both the reflexes and speed to dodge it which Kakashi lacked.



Kakashi had the reflexes, which is why he was able to _Kamui_ the arrow, he simply lacked the raw movement speed to get out of the way.



> Itachi clone-feinted him and traded several times with him in CQC. At the very least the speed gap between them isn't big.



"Traded several times"? He failed to capitalize on the surprise factor initially provided by his clone, blocked a scalpel charge, and got bisected.

A much slower character can contend in close quarters if they're reflexive enough, though Itachi could hardly be said to be contending since his attacks were evaded while not once did he ever evade anything in return; so.....yeah....that's not translating into a direct movement comparison there, and I'm inclined to disagree with you.



> Tsunade admitted an incomplete FRS was beyond her healing capabilities.



Tsunade also explicitly distinguished "healing" and "regeneration" with the introduction of _Sōzō Saisei_, a technique which is improved upon in _Byakugō no Jutsu_. Much of the the fuel for Tsunade's regenerative techniques would be exiting the _Byakugō no In_ as opposed to free-flowing, so that could be drawn on regardless of the severing of the Chakra tubes in Tsunade's body as it would progressively regenerate said tubes as it began flowing outside of the seal.



> It was still kicking after FRS and Nagato said not to attack it. It was not that damaged then Itachi put it down with Amaterasu.



It was lying on the ground in pain, Nagato said not to attack it again because another FRS likely would have split it in half, and as we've seen previously splitting/piercing techniques cause it to multiply outwards from the point of penetration.

How damaged it was would be attributed to its durability; nothing ever actually regenerated.



> Not attacking anyone.



There is more than one type of ad hominem.



> More confidence makes it less likely for him to use Yomi Numa and try some form of combination attack with Tsunade.



It doesn't make a lick of sense that more confidence in his abilities would make him more likely to depend on someone else's skills over a casually casted Jutsu, and assuming they went for direct combat whatever form of combination attack they have in mind can involve _Yomi Numa_.

It is not some sort of last resort technique.



> Someone who can take on B and has Bijuu level chakra being useless against Jiraiya?



Yes. Did you miss Kisame wide eyed and panic sweating before requiring Itachi's skills to escape Jiraiya's opening offense?

Kisame gets stronger the more Chakra he takes in and Bee throws around copious amounts of raw Chakra like nobody's business, very _dis_similar to the esophagus that canonically struck fear in Kisame. The swordsman only managed to take on Bee by virtue of being a nightmarish specific match-up for him/Jinchūriki; Bee was effectively digging his own grave.

So yes I still think the combined effect of Kisame and Itachi's respective presences would have been more detrimental than the additive effect beneficial, when dealing with Jiraiya at least.



> And 7th Gated Gai and SM Naruto can defeat the weakened Pein Rikudo I feel.



And this is just the subjective opposite of what was implied in the manga.



> Itachi was overconfident in his ability to control and get things done. Like with Sasuke. In terms of fighting he was actually fairly modest, praising Gai and Kakashi despite being quite a bit stronger.



That was never specified, and being overconfident doesn't preclude praising your opponent; it just reflects on how much _more highly_ you rate your own abilities in general.


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## LostSelf (Feb 26, 2014)

Do you think that SM Naruto + Team Gai cannot take on weakened Deva Path? Because if Katsuyu implied that, i don't know who takes the price on the less brilliant summon, if Manda for trying to eat her, or Katsuyu for this kind of comment, though.


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## Almondsand (Feb 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It depends on how they initiate this.
> 
> If they attack Itachi inside the tunnels, I'd say Itachi fries them with Amaterasu. The likehood of landing Amaterasu on both of them in such confined space is pretty damn high.
> 
> ...



Do not give characters clone feints if they never used it in the manga, especially as a staple in battle. Itachi feints people that feints him. Itachi always feints especially if he is taking the initiative to move from his post forward. It's never Itachi the first time around.

For the people arguing for the Summons, once again Itachi killed Cerberus and kunai'ed eyes of other Rinnegan summons, how are inferior summons Boss Toad and Katsuyu going to avoid an Ama and automatic death. If Jaraiya takes the time to try to save Boss Frog and Katsuya life by trying to solve it he will have to take much time and will be hit too by an Itachi seeing an opening. Tsunade is a non factor as she is too slow to hit Itach, and he will feint her with a DAMA clone or Genjutsu clone and then kill Jaraiya.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 26, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Itachi can ignite her body completely, not only an arm. Also, Amaterasu has never been reacted before unless it has been sensed, though.



Hachibi with the tentacle and Sasuke with the CS wing. Neither are sensors and both somehow blocked it. If Tsunade can put up an arm or two she may be able to block it and remove her limb. 

But as I said, even if not due to her resiliency and Itachi being low on chakra and exhausted she may still be able to chase him down and tag him especially with help from Katsuya.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 26, 2014)

Wolfstein said:


> Are you sure, master? If he decides to use Amaterasu, shouldn't Tsunade reach him by time his interaction with Jiraiya is done? He afford to take a full punch from Tsunade, trying to hit Jiraiya.



Yes I'm sure young padawan. Tsunade may try to do that, but Itachi can casually dodge Tsunade with sharingan precog.




> Nothing, master. Actually I'm not sure who hits who first. Depends on their individual IC actions, I guess (since Yomi Numa is fairly quick as well) Quite frankly, I've never seen Itachi start out with Amaterasu, or for that matter MS in general (bar the time he was an edo)



But young padawan, Itachi only fought people much weaker than him when he was alive, none of which he seriously tried to kill.

Itachi is the kind of person who opts for quick results. He didn't hesitate to use Amaterasu against Jiraiya'S toad stomach, he didn't stop and thought to himself "well may be I should start shooting fireballs first."

And I am not saying that he will start with Amaterasu as soon as the match starts. It was a scenario I entertained had the fight broke within the tunnels. 



> But master, you can only counter Yomi Numa with a jump when you have full knowledge on it, otherwise you'd have to randomly anticipate it.



Or, my dear young padawan, Itachi sees Jiraiya forming seals with sharingan(which will allow him to know a doton jutsu is about to be formed) and simply jump when chakra starts allocating beneath his feet ? Sharingan can see chakra and allow the user to see through nin/tai/genjutsu.



Rosencrantz said:


> Hachibi with the tentacle and Sasuke with the CS wing. Neither are sensors and both somehow blocked it. If Tsunade can put up an arm or two she may be able to block it and remove her limb.
> 
> But as I said, even if not due to her resiliency and Itachi being low on chakra and exhausted she may still be able to chase him down and tag him especially with help from Katsuya.



Sasuke didn't block it with his wing. Itachi hit the wing and then stopped it when 3/4 of Sasuke's body was eradicated, which happened in a matter of seconds.

I am not sure about Hachibee but it might be that Sasuke wasn't able to from the flames just on top of Hachibee because of the distance.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes I'm sure young padawan. Tsunade may try to do that, but Itachi can casually dodge Tsunade with sharingan precog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While focusing on amaterasu? Precog only works on what Itachi is looking at. Tsunade sprinting to his rear or to his side while he is focused on Jiraiya means he gets his head knocked. Cute that you think Itachi can simeltaneously focus on an amaterasu for Jiraiya and react to Tsunade with precog. Calm down with the obsession.

Sasuke blocked with his wing. He saw it coming towards him and had it his wing so he would have time to use oral rebirth. Lawl Itachi "hit his wing." Gotta love how these fanboys just know Itachi can do no wrong. Its still pathetic after all of these years.

Can try to make a contrived excuse all you want to. Hachibi reacted and put up a tentacle. Tsunade can do the same with her arm.


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## The Undying (Feb 26, 2014)

Amaterasu isn't nearly as fast or as immediate as people think. Jiraiya has enough time to launch an LoS-blocking technique and Tsunade can just use Katsuyu for both offensive and defensive purposes. Itachi won't go down easily and he's way too careful to start recklessly attacking one of the Sannin while giving another one an opening, but I feel like the slug princess and her froggy friend would eventually overwhelm him.

This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but I think a 1 vs. 1 match is potentially more interesting. The Sannin are incredibly underrated here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 26, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> While focusing on amaterasu? Precog only works on what Itachi is looking at. Tsunade sprinting to his rear or to his side while he is focused on Jiraiya means he gets his head knocked. Cute that you think Itachi can simeltaneously focus on an amaterasu for Jiraiya and react to Tsunade with precog. Calm down with the obsession.



They are inside a tunnel, how is Tsunade escaping Itachi's vision and getting behind him ? Itachi can drag Amaterasu freely with his eyes, once he hits Jiraiya, he is certainly capable of turning his gaze on Tsunde.



> Sasuke blocked with his wing. He saw it coming towards him and had it his wing so he would have time to use oral rebirth. Lawl Itachi "hit his wing." Gotta love how these fanboys just know Itachi can do no wrong. Its still pathetic after all of these years.



Itachi didn't form the flames on Sasuke. Sasuke started running first and the flames formed on air and were chasing Sasuke from behind.
Its not like Sasuke anticipated it and formed or moved his wing to block it while it was forming. 

Itachi was also not trying to kill Sasuke and lets say you are tard in denial and think he was geniunely trying to kill him, then you'd have to admit that even as villain he was trying to delicately save Sasuke's  head so he could harvest the eyes at least.



> Can try to make a contrived excuse all you want to. Hachibi reacted and put up a tentacle. Tsunade can do the same with her arm.


Its not an excuse. But lets say Hachibee was able to react it and block it with his tentacle, which puts him on Raikage's reaction tier. 
Tsunade was stated to be slower than Raikage, so we can't attribute such feat to her anyway. Especially when other people like Nagato or Danzo weren't able to physically react to the flames. 

And a big target like Hachibe was literally engulfed in flames  within a few seconds, despite blocking it with the tentacle first. 

Gets hit here : 5

His head is on fire here : 5

Tsuande can't block Amaterasu with her arm, even if you believe she has the reaction speed to do so(which she doesn't btw). She'd get engulfed in a second and burn for 7 days straight, if she can regenrate for that long, or If Itachi lets Jiraiya prepare a sealing scroll before she dies.



The Undying said:


> Amaterasu isn't nearly as fast or as immediate as people think. Jiraiya has enough time to launch an LoS-blocking technique and Tsunade can just use Katsuyu for both offensive and defensive purposes. Itachi won't go down easily and he's way too careful to start recklessly attacking one of the Sannin while giving another one an opening, but I feel like the slug princess and her froggy friend would eventually overwhelm him.
> 
> This likely won't be a very popular opinion, but I think a 1 vs. 1 match is potentially more interesting. The Sannin are incredibly underrated here.



Regardless it is still faster than Jiraiya can form seals, or move his body.

Jiraiya doesn't have any speed feats suggesting he can react to Amaterasu either.


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## The Undying (Feb 26, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Jiraiya doesn't have any speed feats suggesting he can react to Amaterasu either.




I beg to differ. His movement speed in SM combined with the reflexes Jiraiya has shown would suggest he's more than capable of circumventing Amaterasu or at least preparing an LoS-blocking counter if he's a considerable distance away. Even if he can't dodge it altogether, I would assume he's fast enough to keep it from reaching his vital points, in which case he can just seal it up since Amaterasu doesn't seem to burn too fast for him to pull out a scroll. As long as Itachi is required to simultaneously focus on Jiraiya and build up his chakra pressure (which obviously creates a time delay), it's highly debatable that Jiraiya would even be within its trajectory the moment the flames are invoked. He's ridiculously mobile here.

Granted, this is all in Sage Mode and I'll admit it's hard to determine if Jiraiya will ever have an opportunity to enter that state. Gauging the exact speed of Amaterasu is still tricky though.


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## Jagger (Feb 26, 2014)

Pointing out something: A cut off his own arm to prevent the fire to spread all through his body.

So if Tsunade is intelligent enough, she would do that. And cutting his own arm means his Taijutsu skills drastically fall.


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## Vice (Feb 26, 2014)

The Undying said:


> Granted, this is all in Sage Mode and I'll admit it's hard to determine if Jiraiya will ever have an opportunity to enter that state. Gauging the exact speed of Amaterasu is still tricky though.



With frog summons and Tsunade throwing at Itachi whatever she can, he's got quite a decent opening.


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## Fiiction (Feb 27, 2014)

Is it me or is itachi being wanked here?
You take away susanoo while going against two Sannin and he still has a chance??
What's worst itachi fanboys or madara fanboys?


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> They are inside a tunnel, how is Tsunade escaping Itachi's vision and getting behind him ? Itachi can drag Amaterasu freely with his eyes, once he hits Jiraiya, he is certainly capable of turning his gaze on Tsunde.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that's your problem. Dickriding the jutsu too much. Let's pretend for shits and giggles that Itachi acts as OOC as you say to begin with and starts with an amaterasu. Let's pretend. And let's pretend he aims it at Jiraiya. For one, there is a charge time. So Jiraiya can do a variety of things. He can shoot a katon at him. In such a confined space with no room to dodge in a tunnel, he could leap over it just to meet a frog summon, Kage Bunshin, Tsunade, etc. Or he uses his amaterasu to get rid of the flames then uses another amaterasu on Jiraiya. Oh shit, in the confusion, Jiraiya and Tsunade slipped off and replaced themselves with bunshin. Itachi is now two amaterasu down and exhausted and Tsunade and Jiraiya have not done anything. To sum up, amaterasu has a charge time and Jiraiya and Tsunade are not stationary targets. Also using it at the start is also OOC. Get it? Got it? Good. Also he needs separate amaterasu for separate targets as he has shown in every usage amaterasu to date.

Sasuke clearly saw the amaterasu going towards him. We have a close up on his eye looking at it. Then uses the wing to cover himself. 

As was explained before, sometimes one has to use deadly force to beat someone without killing them and push them to their limits. Think Suigetsu said something to that effect.

False sir. Your intial premise is faulty. Why would we assume Hachibi is on Yondaime Raikage's reaction tier? He dodged it. Hachibi blocked it. That is a huge difference. Blocking something is much easier to do than outright dodge someone. Other wise Suigetsu and Juugo have similar speed/reactions to Sasuke right? Because after all Sasuke dodged Raikage and Suigetsu/Juugo blocked him. Its fun tearing apart people's logic sometimes. And I am pretty sure Danzou put up an arm trying to defend against it so he reacted to it as well. But he was in mid air and put up one arm.

Okay and other targets have shown to get hit by the flames and they are not engulfed in seconds. Hachibi also took time to try and wash it out. Tsunade will not have a giant water source near her and also knows better. She just discards the arm.

Or she does not get engulfed in a second you know like the Samurai, Raikage, Madara, Karin, etc. And she will not take the time to wash her body off. So it hits her arm and she tears it off. 

As I said even if she can't do that, Itachi will be exhausted from Jiraiya just spectating after clones, katons, amaterasu, tsukiyomi, etc on Tsunade that he will be slowed enough that she can just chase him down while on fire especially with Katsuya in tow.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 27, 2014)

I don't think Tsunade can block Itachi's Amaterasu with her arm because of it's size

itachi is also able to sustain amaterasu and change it's direction by moving his head. Controlling the flame in this manner makes amaterasu slower, but it was still fast enough to catch a Cs1 senjutsu-boosted hebi sauce. Hebi Sauce w/ CS1 is faster than base jiraiya and Tsunade, so if Itachi can catch Hebi Sauce then he can also catch them imo.

I think Tsunade will have a hard time approaching Itachi since she can be caught by the black flames if ever within his los. She doesn't have the speed to evade it nor has she demonstrated bushin jutsu or any counter really.

Jiraiya has kage bushin but he's rarely used the technique in a feinting manner. 
That being said though I can see him doing it even if OOC w/ knowledge of Amaterasu in the stipulation. It's a temporary solution though and once Itachi is knowledgeable of clones being used I think he has superior intelligence feats to suggest he'd be the one outsmarting Jiraiya. He'd also have enough stamina remaining.

That being said though with Susanoo restricted Itachi doesn't have a good counter to Yomi Numa. He'd have to preempt it with the sharingan's insight. Tbh though I think Amaterasu is harder to evade for Jiraiya than Yomi Numa is hard to evade for Itachi. 

One requires handseals while the other doesn't, so there's a disparity in the amount of time one has to react. Additionally, Itachi can actively look out for the handseals of Jiraiya about to use it/see the chakra manipulation occurring, whereas Jiraiya can't look out for Amaterasu's blood tear due to possibilities of being genjutsu'd.

I don't think Itachi'll use Amaterasu right away, but when he does start using it they don't really have a viable counter. For them to win they'd basically have to never be in Itachi's LoS. Even if he misses the tech he can just move it over them. If he's focusing on one, and the other comes at him, he has enough speed to  tilt his head and catch them in the amaterasu.


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## The Undying (Feb 27, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think Tsunade can block Itachi's Amaterasu with her arm because of it's size




I don't recall Amaterasu ever being that large when it activates. To quote the correct translation(s) of Zetsu's description (Hexa posted these ), the flames initially appear at a focal point and spread out from there; the panel you're showing is what Amaterasu looked like _after_ the flames had been spreading for a brief time period. A few panels prior to that in the previous chapter clearly show them converging in a smaller space. In general, Amaterasu seems to have a dynamic AoE that starts at a much smaller focal point (roughly around human size) and increases over time. If Tsunade can react quickly enough, extending her arm in front of her to block it shouldn't be all that difficult.

Also, I haven't seen any solid indication that the CS actually boosts Sasuke's speed to any significant degree in Part II. Against Deidara, it didn't seem to be any more of an inconvenience than his base speed already was, and he has only used those transformations for flying or blocking with his wings after the timeskip. According to Kakashi it just draws out potential, but there's no reason to believe it draws out as much as in Part I since he's already increased his natural abilities.


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## Rosencrantz (Feb 27, 2014)

The amaterasu would obviously human size just like every amaterasu used on a human is.

Well for one Sasuke was low on chakra and somewhat exhausted means that he is very well slower than a Base Jiraiya. But that is neither here nor there. This implies that the only way to avoid amaterasu is to run from it. Also implies that hitting Tsunade with amaterasu would end her which does not appear to be the case.

Sure Itachi goes OOC and uses amaterasu from the start. Okay? Tsunade tanks the amaterasu and keeps on trucking. He uses another and she keeps going. So he kills all of his chakra trying to down the immortal woman unti she catches him and punches his head off thanks to byakugou. Then Jiraiya seals up the flames.

Amaterasu is not Itachi's only jutsu. With other jutsu being used, he will only be able to use it like 2-3 times. One amaterasu aimed at a clone on accident, one amaterasu used for defense to prevent himself from getting killed, and potentially another to hit Tsunade and Itachi is too exhausted. And this is ASSUMING he gets to use all of these before he is killed.

Tsunade alone can potentially solo. Jiraiya definitely can. Together is just a rape.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 27, 2014)

@ Undying
Amaterasu is the same as all other jutsu in that the dimensions and properties of the technique vary depending on the Chakra/Energy Source the user puts into it. Itachi's Amaterasu are that size because that's the amount of chakra he usually elects to put into the technique IC. He has used small ones the size of a crow's head, and one that fit on Obito's shoulder, but in general his in-battle Amaterasu are the size I linked above.

If Itachi is staring at a sky scraper for instance, it doesn't mean his Amaterasu will be the size of a sky scraper. He expends chakra to manifest the flames, and can only conjure an amount of flames proportionate to his chakra expenditure. 

CS1 was implicitly stated to enhance Sasuke's physique during the VotE battle against Naruto. It was compared to sharingan IIRC. His exact words are something along the lines of "_My body is as it was while[forgot the rest_!!". Actually, even the context of when they were comparing cursed seal had to do specifically with sasuke's speed and new found ability to react to and handle Naruto. There's no precedent for CS changing over the timeskip and no longer enhancing his speed.

@Rosencrantz
Itachi doesn't used human sized Amaterasu IC.

I don't think Base Jiraiya's faster than CS1 Hebi Sauce, who's had his speed hyped both in the manga and databook at that point. Sasuke wasn't that tired either. The bulk of his chakra consumption took place after using Oral Rebirth and 3 Large-Scale CS2-Amped Katons. All the jutsu used before that point were much smaller in scale and by extension chakra expenditure. Sasuke failed to dodge Amaterasu first before using up all his chakra.


I'm not sure you have an appreciation for how badly being on fire would be for her  between burning/asphyxiating/being blinded/being in pain. She wouldn't be in a good state of mind and may actually become vulnerable to genjutsu due to opening her eyes and not being able to think straight. I don't think she's going to be in a situation conducive to fighting, let alone hitting the physically faster Itachi who's further boosted by sharingan precog. 

Additionally, she'd want to break LoS. If Itachi sustains his Amaterasu on her instead of ending it, it may burn clear through her like the fire toad's esophagus.

Concerning Itachi's stamina, he should have enough to last the fight. Not having Susanoo means he has leftover whatever chakra would of gone into using it. 

Susanoo is probably the most taxing of all MS jutsu, since the user is basically generating a 1-2 story building size chakra construct off their own reserves, and then continuously paying a perpetuation/maintenance cost after constructing it.

Itachi even with Susanoo used 1 tsukiyomi and 3 amaterasu, 2 of the amaterasu being of large enough scale to blot out LoS and the other being small enough to fit on Obito's shoulder.. He also used a karasu bushin before those ms jutsu. Factoring in susanoo being restricted probably counts for 2 ms techs, and assuming he doesn't land tsukiyomi, I wouldn't be surprised if he could pump out 5-6 amaterasu if he devoted all his Mangekyou jutsu chakra to only amaterasu. He has the same chakra but will ultimately allocate it differently depending on how the battle progresses, unless of course he's killed before all his chakra is used.


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## The Undying (Feb 28, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> Amaterasu is the same as all other jutsu in that the dimensions and properties of the technique vary depending on the Chakra/Energy Source the user puts into it. Itachi's Amaterasu are that size because that's the amount of chakra he usually elects to put into the technique IC.




No canonical source, manga or otherwise, has said that Amaterasu's size (the size it starts at, not the size it spreads to) is based on the amount of chakra expended. This isn't a basic Ninjutsu, it's a vision-based one. Every single official description of it characterizes it as a step-by-step process of its user focusing on an object or person until the flames spring forth and grow from that focal point. Even if its initial size _did_ depend on the amount of chakra put into it, your argument would just presuppose Itachi needing to wait longer to use a bigger version. That's because the whole technique implicitly requires a corresponding chakra pressure build-up. By virtue of its own mechanics, Amaterasu's prep speed should vary as well by that logic.

So either way, it's ridiculous to presume that the flames would engulf Tsunade's entire body at several times her size the _moment_ it is invoked. This hasn't even happened to any specific character in the manga. Why on earth would it do so now?



> He has used small ones the size of a crow's head, and one that fit on Obito's shoulder, but in general his in-battle Amaterasu are the size I linked above.




Not from what I can recall. Again, what you linked above was what his flames had become AFTER they'd spread over Sasuke's Katon. The panel previous to that one already demonstrates the beginning stages of that Amaterasu quite clearly, and it was nowhere nearly as big to start with. I can't find an instance where a character is capable of creating an Amaterasu as large as the panel you've shown _at its initial size_.



> There's no precedent for CS changing over the timeskip and no longer enhancing his speed.




There is clearly a precedent. CS is described in the manga and databooks as a technique that enhances its recipient's abilities by manifesting some of the hidden potential within. Given that Sasuke's _latent potential_ after the timeskip is naturally less than his potential beforehand, it's only logical that there wouldn't be a boost for his movement speed. He seems to have reached his peak in speed as of the beginning of Part II, which was already pretty damn quick. There simply isn't any potential to draw from there. This seems to be supported by the actual manga, as there hasn't been an indication of any gap in his abilities after transforming into CS or CS2 at all in Part II. Beyond flying and wing guarding? Nothing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2014)

Rosencrantz said:


> And that's your problem. Dickriding the jutsu too much. Let's pretend for shits and giggles that Itachi acts as OOC as you say to begin with and starts with an amaterasu. Let's pretend. And let's pretend he aims it at Jiraiya. For one, there is a charge time. So Jiraiya can do a variety of things. He can shoot a katon at him. In such a confined space with no room to dodge in a tunnel, he could leap over it just to meet a frog summon, Kage Bunshin, Tsunade, etc. Or he uses his amaterasu to get rid of the flames then uses another amaterasu on Jiraiya. Oh shit, in the confusion, Jiraiya and Tsunade slipped off and replaced themselves with bunshin. Itachi is now two amaterasu down and exhausted and Tsunade and Jiraiya have not done anything. To sum up, amaterasu has a charge time and Jiraiya and Tsunade are not stationary targets. Also using it at the start is also OOC. Get it? Got it? Good. Also he needs separate amaterasu for separate targets as he has shown in every usage amaterasu to date.



Jiraiya launches a Katon, Itachi engulfs the katon with Amaterasu, but doesn't shut his eye close this time and  keeps on focusing it instead. 7
It is pretty much this scenario, with intent to kill on Itachi's part. 

Amaterasu of this size will burn both of them to crisp in a heartbeat : 7

Also, both Tsunade and Jiraiya would need to be faster than Itachi to be able to pull all those bunshin feints before Itachi could realize them. When you consider that they aren't even close in terms of speed, they won't be able to dance around him. It will be the quite opposite.




> Sasuke clearly saw the amaterasu going towards him. We have a close up on his eye looking at it. Then uses the wing to cover himself.


What ? Amaterasu doesn't go towards the target, it appears on it. 

Sasuke starts to Shunshin towards to his side here : 7 then on the next panel Itachi uses Amaterasu. 
As you can see in that page, Sasuke starts 'movement'* and then Itachi opens his eye. Things happen in that order. There is no wing or anything.




> As was explained before, sometimes one has to use deadly force to beat someone without killing them and push them to their limits. Think Suigetsu said something to that effect.


Or you pretend to do so, like Tobi said. 




> False sir. Your intial premise is faulty. Why would we assume Hachibi is on Yondaime Raikage's reaction tier? He dodged it. Hachibi blocked it. That is a huge difference. Blocking something is much easier to do than outright dodge someone. Other wise Suigetsu and Juugo have similar speed/reactions to Sasuke right? Because after all Sasuke dodged Raikage and Suigetsu/Juugo blocked him. Its fun tearing apart people's logic sometimes. And I am pretty sure Danzou put up an arm trying to defend against it so he reacted to it as well. But he was in mid air and put up one arm.


Reaction wise, they are the same.
I never suggested that Hachibe could move as fast as Raikage but to able to react to Amaterasu Hachibee needs to be on Raikage's reaction tier, other wise he wouldn't be able to* react *in the first place.



> Okay and other targets have shown to get hit by the flames and they are not engulfed in seconds. Hachibi also took time to try and wash it out. Tsunade will not have a giant water source near her and also knows better. She just discards the arm.


Most targets who got directly hit by Amaterasu were engulfed and eaten away within seconds, no matter how big or durable they are. You might refer to Cerebrus, a FRS tanking beast of sheer size. 




> Or she does not get engulfed in a second you know like the Samurai, Raikage, Madara, Karin, etc. And she will not take the time to wash her body off. So it hits her arm and she tears it off.


Karin wasn't hit directly by Amaterasu, the flames on Hachibee's tentacle came in brief contact with her. Same goes for Raikage.
Madara absorbed it. 
Sasuke stopped using Amaterasu after it hit Samurai. You might say that the armor might have provided a defense against Amaterasu and admit that it made the samurai more durable  than Sasuke's CS2 wing, Cerebrus, Jiraiya's toad stomach, Danzo etc. Or admit that it is an outlier, both of them are fine by me.



> As I said even if she can't do that, Itachi will be exhausted from Jiraiya just spectating after clones, katons, amaterasu, tsukiyomi, etc on Tsunade that he will be slowed enough that she can just chase him down while on fire especially with Katsuya in tow.



She can't do that period. Even if we assume that flames start out as small as the ones appeared on Obito 7, we know how rapidly they spread 7

These are all asuming baseless bits as :

Tsunade is fast enough to react to Amaterasu
Tsuande is fast enough to lift his arm to block it
Itachi won't aim somewhere else
Itachi won't keep sustaining Amaterasu and allow it to spread to other body parts
Tsunade will be composed enough to rip her own arm off before allowing the flames to spread to her other body parts(her other hand for instance that might come in contact with the arm).


There are too many shaky bits, some of them are even beyond stretch of imagination.

Once a wise man said "If my grandma had balls, she'd be my granddad."

IF Tsunade can meet lots of conditions that she normally can't, then yeah, she might be able to do something about Amaterasu.


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## Raiken (Feb 28, 2014)

Alive Itachi W/ Susano'o = SM Jiraiya. "To our knowledge Itachi wasn't at all, or wasn't as sick, in Part 1."
So why would a nerfed Itachi be able to beat an Unrestricted Jiraiya and Tsunade?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 28, 2014)

Cryorex said:


> Alive Itachi W/ Susano'o = SM Jiraiya. "To our knowledge Itachi wasn't at all, or wasn't as sick, in Part 1."
> So why would a nerfed Itachi be able to beat an Unrestricted Jiraiya and Tsunade?



Lol wrong !

Base Jiraiya > Alive Non sick prime Itachi + Akatsuki


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