# Tsunade vs Kisame



## oiety (Jul 21, 2016)

Location: Sannin Deadlock.
Mindset: IC.
Distance: 20 meters.
Knowledge: Manga.
Restrictions: Daikodan, Waterdome, Katsuyu. 

Round 2: Same, but bloodlusted with no restrictions.


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## Bonly (Jul 21, 2016)

Tsunade eventually punches him to death, she can heal from his attacks while she only needs a good handful to take him out and since he needs to get into CQC range in order to do any meaningful damage, he's gonna catch her hands sooner or later

Reactions: Like 4 | Disagree 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 21, 2016)

I agree with @Bonly 
Kisame will eventually have to get CQC with Tsunade where he will fail miserably due to a lack of knowledge. He's not aware of her regeneration nor the monster strength she keeps hidden so well. Im betting Tsunade lands a deadly blow before Kisame puts her down.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 21, 2016)

With Manga knowledge all Kisame knows is that Tsunade is one of the legendary Sannin and reputed as the greatest medical-nin alive, so once he engages her in CQC he's gonna get pummeled to death pretty quickly and she can survive any Suiton he dishes out.


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2016)

Kisame dies horribly. Water dome is literally the only reason he stands a chance Against Tsuande, and I do admit that he could win under Certain stipulations with that tech.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Kisame dies horribly. Water dome is literally the only reason he stands a chance Against Tsuande, and I do admit that he could win under Certain stipulations with that tech.


Stipulation being Katsuyu can't be summoned?

Reactions: Like 1


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## oiety (Jul 21, 2016)

Yeah, thats the result I was guessing for the first round. I'll admit I'm absolutely terrible with size scaling from manga with no real world reference, though, so how big is Katsuyu compared to the Water dome?


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## Equilibrium139 (Jul 21, 2016)

oiety said:


> Yeah, thats the result I was guessing for the first round. I'll admit I'm absolutely terrible with size scaling from manga with no real world reference, though, so how big is Katsuyu compared to the Water dome?



This is Waterdome compared to Gamabunta. Sorry I can't post pics on here, it's why I have to state the Chapter/Page rather than posting the scan.


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2016)

oiety said:


> Yeah, thats the result I was guessing for the first round. I'll admit I'm absolutely terrible with size scaling from manga with no real world reference, though, so how big is Katsuyu compared to the Water dome?



Well Tsunade can summon various amounts of Katsuyu depending on the situation.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jul 21, 2016)

Equilibrium139 said:


> Sorry I can't post pics on here, it's why I have to state the Chapter/Page rather than posting the scan.


 Katsuyu is as large as Gammabunta. Though I think the only reason Katsuyu can counter waterdome is her clones. If Tsunade hides in one of her hundreds of clones, she can safely escape while Kisame plays which slug has a human in it.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Jay2016 (Jul 21, 2016)

1- Tsunade 
2- Kisame


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## Mithos (Jul 22, 2016)

Tsunade wins in both scenarios.

Kisame needs to get close to her to do any real damage - steal her chakra, attempt to trap her in the Water-Dome, etc - but that is where Tsunade thrives. She will out-do Kisame in CQC and kill him, regenerating whatever damage she takes in the process.

At long-range she's at a disadvantage, but Kisame's water jutsu can't kill her or Katsuyu, and Tsunade will battle her way to close range sooner or later.

On top of that, I know I've said it a million times but: Kisame himself admitted that he is not on the same level as the Sannin, and therefore is out-classed by Tsunade.


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## LostSelf (Jul 22, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Katsuyu is as large as Gammabunta. Though I think the only reason Katsuyu can counter waterdome is her clones. If Tsunade hides in one of her hundreds of clones, she can safely escape while Kisame plays which slug has a human in it.



Look at the threes in Gamabunta's panel and look at the threes in Waterdome panel. The threes look taller compared to Bunta than how they look compared to the dome. Enough to assume the dome effectively dwarfs the frog.

I don't know also how big is the wall of Konoha compared to the normal mountains. However, the Hokage monument is the largest and is a mountain, and said monument dwarfs boss sized Katsuyu.  

-----

With waterdome unrestricted, Kisame loses.

With waterdome unrestricted, Kisame's insane chakra stealing will trump Tsunade. Any Katsuyu in the dome will be drained fast and it will only make Kisame stronger. The longer the battle, the worse it'll be. So, Kisame takes it.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 22, 2016)

With waterdome unrestricted, Tsunade pretends to have drowned in the dome, and then rips Kisame in half once he speeds up to her for a finishing blow.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Drake (Jul 22, 2016)

Kisame loses round one but wins round two. Kisame can create a up to a thousand sharks in his Water Dome, not counting himself. There is no way that Tsunade could avoid being swarmed by them while underwater.


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## Mithos (Jul 22, 2016)

Drake said:


> Kisame loses round one but wins round two. Kisame can create a up to a thousand sharks in his Water Dome, not counting himself. There is no way that Tsunade could avoid being swarmed by them while underwater.



Katsuyu can divide and out number the sharks, and she can spit acid into the water to prevent them from swarming. Or if Tsunade melds into a large Katsuyu, the sharks can't get her.

I don't see Tsunade getting trapped in the dome in the first place, though, to be honest. Kisame is likely to eat a haymaker or a foot before he opts for it. And even if she does get trapped, summoning a larger-than-normal piece of Katsuyu should push her towards the top of the dome, and from there, she can spring off of Katsuyu to escape.


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## Icegaze (Jul 23, 2016)

Tsunade gets drowned 
Mid diff only because she can heal 
Otherwise low diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Itachі (Jul 24, 2016)

Tsunade defeats him fairly easily, he'd have an extremely difficult time putting her down while she'd do so easily.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Empathy (Jul 24, 2016)

I don't think regeneration can counter drowning, so Kisame likely wins.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 24, 2016)

It's a cell reproduction technique.

Oxygen is meant to sustain cells and create new ones, it is the energy of the body.

You don't need oxygen to survive, you need active cells to survive, oxygen keeps the cells active.

Oxygen is not needed when your system is creating new ones at an unforseen pace. Out with the old (inactive), in with the new (active).

I wonder how she was breathing, let alone lowercutting a Susano, with two Susano Blades in her entire organ track (lunges obliterated, spinal cord obliterated- still leaped and landed a ferocious blow without the spinal cord intact to literally tell the legs to leap and stabilize the body)

0verall, what Tsunade has survived and has literally fought through- 0% chance lack of oxygen is her downfall. Science and particularly biology mean nothing when evaluting Tsunade Senju's capabilities.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2016)

Round 1: Tsunade
it's possible she could lose this scenario to, given that Kisame absorbs chakra like crazy with Samehada but I could see her disarming him. While I don't think he's stronger than her, I'd say he's in the top 5 strongest characters list for sure. 

Round 2: Kisame
She can't do anything in the waterdome, she just dies from chakra exhaustion.


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## Kisame (Jul 31, 2016)

I haven't posted in years (I think), it took a Kisame thread to do it. 


oiety said:


> Location: Sannin Deadlock.
> Mindset: IC.
> Distance: 20 meters.
> Knowledge: Manga.
> ...


Round 1 depends on whether Kisame decides to use Bakusui Shouha or engage in CQC, the former increasing his chances and the latter Tsunade's.

The second round is Kisame's for the taking, spitting out the lake initially will set the match on the right path for his win.


Isaiah13000 said:


> With Manga knowledge all Kisame knows is that Tsunade is one of the legendary Sannin and reputed as the greatest medical-nin alive, so once he engages her in CQC he's gonna get pummeled to death pretty quickly and she can survive any Suiton he dishes out.


Why are you assuming that the first action Kisame will take *has* to be to approach her in CQC? Kisame did use Suiton: Bakusui Shouha as his first initial move against Gai.

And why are you assuming that Kisame is simply going to get pummelled in a CQC bout? He is a very adept CQC fighter: has superhuman strength (refer to Gai's fight) that *will* deal damage to Tsunade if it lands. is faster than Tsunade and extremely durable. Why are we assuming that he will simply take a punch straight to the face and die? That didn't happen against Gai or Killer Bee (both CQC experts)? My point is the scenario could be different: if/when Tsunade lands a hit Kisame could block it with his sword and while it may send him meters away it won't kill him and it might actually be the turning point of the match where he decides to use Ninjutsu instead (which is an IC thing for him to do when he is threatened in CQC; during his fight with Asuma the moment his hidden blade scratched Kisame his first instinct was to opt for the Shark bullet).


Likes boss said:


> Well Tsunade can summon various amounts of Katsuyu depending on the situation.


Katsuyu divides to provide the excess in numbers; i.e the size of all Katsuyus is the same as the original.


Mithos said:


> Kisame needs to get close to her to do any real damage


Actually he doesn't, any of his Suitons or sharks will be very effective against Tsunade; as they are excess in number and can eat her (or attempt to), bypassing her regeneration.


> At long-range she's at a disadvantage, but Kisame's water jutsu can't kill her or Katsuyu, and Tsunade will battle her way to close range sooner or later.


Actually Kisame's sharks provide a good counter to Tsunade's regeneration as they attack by eating the opponent.

If Kisame has submerged the battlefield (which is likely since he will need a source for his Suitons) and does not wish to be caught up to, he won't. He is faster underwater and can create way more distractions.


> On top of that, I know I've said it a million times but: Kisame himself admitted that he is not on the same level as the Sannin, and therefore is out-classed by Tsunade.


He was speaking based on reputation, seeing as Orochimaru and Jiraiya are also Sannin. According to Kisame the Sannin's reputation dwarfs the seven swordsmen and the Uchiha's (an Uchiha like Itachi who he considers stronger than him) so it's understandable why he made that statement.


Godaime Tsunade said:


> With waterdome unrestricted, Tsunade pretends to have drowned in the dome, and then rips Kisame in half once he speeds up to her for a finishing blow.


You're assuming Kisame is inferior to Tsunade in an underwater setting, and you're also assuming that he won't utilize sharks instead.

Also, if Kisame fuses the match is over.

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## Jad (Jul 31, 2016)

Shark is back! Shit just got real.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Shark said:


> Why are you assuming that the first action Kisame will take *has* to be to approach her in CQC? Kisame did use Suiton: Bakusui Shouha as his first initial move against Gai.
> 
> And why are you assuming that Kisame is simply going to get pummelled in a CQC bout? He is a very adept CQC fighter: has superhuman strength (refer to Gai's fight) that *will* deal damage to Tsunade if it lands. is faster than Tsunade and extremely durable. Why are we assuming that he will simply take a punch straight to the face and die? That didn't happen against Gai or Killer Bee (both CQC experts)? My point is the scenario could be different: if/when Tsunade lands a hit Kisame could block it with his sword and while it may send him meters away it won't kill him and it might actually be the turning point of the match where he decides to use Ninjutsu instead (which is an IC thing for him to do when he is threatened in CQC; during his fight with Asuma the moment his hidden blade scratched Kisame his first instinct was to opt for the Shark bullet).


Because Tsunade is significantly stronger than Kisame, has demonstrated superior speed than Kisame, has far more durability (especially with Byakugo) than Kisame, and also has Katsuyu by her side. One punch from Tsunade will certainly kill Kisame, or did you forget how ridiculously strong she is? What does Guy and Killer B have to do with anything? If Kisame manages to block her initial punch then Samehada is destroyed and killed, considering V2 Killer B's Lariat busted Samehada right open. None of his ninjutsu can kill Tsunade when she's using Byakugo, he can do whatever he wants but he cannot kill Tsunade nor Katsuyu. Kisame is not on the Sannin's level, any of them could beat him mid diff at best.

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## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 31, 2016)

Shark said:


> You're assuming Kisame is inferior to Tsunade in an underwater setting, and you're also assuming that he won't utilize sharks instead.
> 
> Also, if Kisame fuses the match is over.



Kisame is inferior to Tsunade in general.

He is unlikely, in my opinion, to launch a bunch of sharks at an unconscious Tsunade when he can move super-fast and finish her off himself. He didn't seem inclined on using a lot of ninjutsu against Bee underwater, he favoured close range so that he could suck out his chakra, and Tsunade also possesses huge reserves.

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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2016)

Shark said:


> I haven't posted in years (I think), it took a Kisame thread to do it.
> 
> Round 1 depends on whether Kisame decides to use Bakusui Shouha or engage in CQC, the former increasing his chances and the latter Tsunade's.
> 
> ...



Where have you been, man? 

I actually agree with Kisame's sharks. Not sure how much of the sharks he used to rip his body apart he can use here, but these ones would be very good taking on any Katsuyu division.

Also, yeah. Kisamehada would drain Katsuyu to nothing worse than how he left a Bijuu and it's host with almost nothing, though. More Katsuyus summoned means more Super Saiyan transformation for Kisame, and that'd be worse.


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## Reznor (Jul 31, 2016)

R1 is Tsunade

R2 is interesting, but the biggest problem is that in the dome he's CQC. If Tsunade Katsuya's up, he's gotta to CQC Katsuya to get Tsunade out and that leaves him vulnerable. It's true he could attack Katsuya with a bunch of sharks, but those probably wouldn't be effect enough.
Futhermore, Katsuya spit in the water could be deadly to Kisame.

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## Veracity (Jul 31, 2016)

@Shark

The Katsuyu that Tsunade and Sakura summon is merely portions of a massive being in the forest; which is essentially like the size of the God Tree lol. Tsuande summons different portions of the creature depending on the cirucumstance or the amount of chakra she has, hence the difference in size between the Katsuyu she summoned during the Pain arc, the Katsuyu she summoned on her death bed, and the Katsuyu she summoned with Sakura.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

I don't understand this fascination with Kisame's Water Dome, Tsunade can simply summon Katsuyu and then have her split up and flood the entire thing with acid while she hides in one of Katsuyu's clones. Even without Katsuyu, in order to hurt her and drain her he has to touch her first and in order to do that he must engage in CQC, and she can simply grab onto him and punch him one time and he dies.


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## Veracity (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't understand this fascination with Kisame's Water Dome, Tsunade can simply summon Katsuyu and then have her split up and flood the entire thing with acid while she hides in one of Katsuyu's clones. Even without Katsuyu, in order to hurt her and drain her he has to touch her first and in order to do that he must engage in CQC, and she can simply grab onto him and punch him one time and he dies.



She could also summon a huge portion of Katsuyu and just outright bust the dome anyway.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't understand this fascination with Kisame's Water Dome, Tsunade can simply summon Katsuyu and then have her split up and flood the entire thing with acid while she hides in one of Katsuyu's clones. Even without Katsuyu, in order to hurt her and drain her he has to touch her first and in order to do that he must engage in CQC, and she can simply grab onto him and punch him one time and he dies.


Kisamehada chakra-rapes Katsuyu and then Tsunade


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> She could also summon a huge portion of Katsuyu and just outright bust the dome anyway.


 I don't think she can summon a portion of Katsuyu that big though, she needed Sakura's help to summon that gigantic 1/10th of her. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Kisamehada chakra-rapes Katsuyu and then Tsunade


 Tsunade can kill him while he's forming the dome, and even if he manages to do so no he can't. There's no proof that Katsuyu's acid is chakra-based, so he gets shrouded in acid and melts to death. Even if it is, he must suffer the effects of what he is absorbing first as seen by Samehada. Someone like Orochumaru and his summon Manda were either stated or implied to be able to be killed by her acid (which can melt through stone and the ground), so Kisame does nothing but quickly die when he comes into contact with it.


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## Veracity (Jul 31, 2016)

@Isaiah13000 

Consider the fact that Tsuande needed Sakura to summon that massive portion of Katsuyu and THEN heal more than 5,000 shinobi simultaneously. Tsuande and Sakura also had chakra left over after doing all of that. If Tsuande didnt have to heal all those shinobi, I think she just summon the creature by itself.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tsunade can kill him while he's forming the dome, and even if he manages to do so no he can't


Good one. Gai couldn't stop Kisame from forming the dome and he's leagues faster than Tsunade and somehow Tsunade is going to stop him? I mean, Kisame is also faster than Tsnade, where in that did you come to this conclusion.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> Consider the fact that Tsuande needed Sakura to summon that massive portion of Katsuyu and THEN heal more than 5,000 shinobi simultaneously. Tsuande and Sakura also had chakra left over after doing all of that. If Tsuande didnt have to heal all those shinobi, I think she just summon the creature by itself.


I suppose it's possible, but I don't think it's needed for her to win though.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Good one. Gai couldn't stop Kisame from forming the dome and he's leagues faster than Tsunade and somehow Tsunade is going to stop him? I mean, Kisame is also faster than Tsnade, where in that did you come to this conclusion.


 Kisame never used that dome against Guy? I'm referring to what Kisame used against Killer B. Are we talking about the same Jutsu here? Tsunade's speed feats against Madara in the War Arc certainly implies she is faster than Kisame and what version of Guy are you talking about? The only version of Guy that is faster than Tsunade overall is 7th Gate Guy.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kisame never used that dome against Guy? I'm referring to what Kisame used against Killer B. Are we talking about the same Jutsu here? Tsunade's speed feats against Madara in the War Arc certainly implies she is faster than Kisame and what version of Guy are you talking about?* The only version of Guy that is faster than Tsunade overall is 7th Gate Guy*.

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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 31, 2016)

LostSelf said:


>


I expected an initial negative response and a bunch of dislikes to that comment. Anyway, my reasoning is that if 6th gate Guy and Sharingan Kakashi are depicted as being around the same level of speed in the War Arc and are able to get overwhelmed by some V2 Jinchuriki then 6th Gate Guy is not nearly as fast as people believes he is. An arms sealed and failing host body Orochimaru at the beginning of Part 2 could keep up with the much stronger V2 Four-Tailed Naruto in CQC and even managed to overwhelm him by the end of their fight. Out of all the Sannin, Tsunade is depicted as the most skilled in CQC and Taijutsu overall; and if you include her feats in the War Arc she mostly certainly is better than Jiraiya and Orochimaru in that field. Overall, the Sannin are depicted as much stronger than Kakashi and Guy throughout the series and Kisame is in a way Guy's personal villain who he triumphed over in the end. Basically, through logical power scaling, hype, feats, and overall portrayal Kisame cannot beat Tsunade and he is certainly not faster than she is.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I expected an initial negative response and a bunch of dislikes to that comment. Anyway, my reasoning is that if 6th gate Guy and Sharingan Kakashi are depicted as being around the same level of speed in the War Arc and are able to get overwhelmed by some V2 Jinchuriki then 6th Gate Guy is not nearly as fast as people believes he is. An arms sealed and failing host body Orochimaru at the beginning of Part 2 could keep up with the much stronger V2 Four-Tailed Naruto in CQC and even managed to overwhelm him by the end of their fight. Out of all the Sannin, Tsunade is depicted as the most skilled in CQC and Taijutsu overall; and if you include her feats in the War Arc she mostly certainly is better than Jiraiya and Orochimaru in that field. Overall, the Sannin are depicted as much stronger than Kakashi and Guy throughout the series and Kisame is in a way Guy's personal villain who he triumphed over in the end. Basically, through logical power scaling, hype, feats, and overall portrayal Kisame cannot beat Tsunade and he is certainly not faster than she is.



Kakashi and Gai are not even equal in speed with Gai in base. Attacking in tandem doesn't mean they are in equal speed, and there's no proof that these V2 Jin were weaker than mindless Naruto, who was being kept up by an Orochimaru who couldn't even see Rusty tsunade getting up on his face and punching him.

These V2 Jin had Sharingan precog, that, let me remind you, allowed Sasuke to go from being blitzed like shit, to start blitzing Naruto, and shared vision that prevented any kind of surprise attack and were giving the superior physically than Orochmaru, Killer Bee, a hell load of troubles.

The Sannin are only depicted as "much stronger" than them in part 1. In the War, Gai and Kakashi are already on their level, if not above. But that's not the point.

The point is that if you put Tsunade and any version of Gai in a race, Gai is going to leave her bitting dust. Let alone the 6th gate.


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## Reznor (Aug 1, 2016)

I think unrestricted Kisame vs restricted Tsunade is a better match up, which is in Kisame's favor.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kisame never used that dome against Guy? I'm referring to what Kisame used against Killer B. Are we talking about the same Jutsu here? Tsunade's speed feats against Madara in the War Arc certainly implies she is faster than Kisame and what version of Guy are you talking about? The only version of Guy that is faster than Tsunade overall is 7th Gate Guy.


Spitting out a lake and spitting out a water one is essentially the same move from Tsunades perspective. Also, lol at Gai needing 7th gate to be faster than Tsunade...I actually, can't anymore. This is too much.

Kisame is faster than all versions of Tsunade as per databook and the same goes for any version of Gai. There are no sped feats for Tsunade, the best one is her jumping feat which is a strength feat, not a speed feat.


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## Reznor (Aug 1, 2016)

Gai is faster than Tsunade, but I think the benefit of that speed against someone he needs to CQC is diminished. People exaggerate speed differences alot.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Reznor said:


> Gai is faster than Tsunade, but I think the benefit of that speed against someone he needs to CQC is diminished. People exaggerate speed differences alot.


Much of it really comes down to who you think is the superior taijutsu expert, I tend to side with Gai more than Tsunade whenever this debate arises because it's the only thing he does with his life. Whereas Tsunade divided her time among taijutsu, medical jutsu with dabbling in some ninjutsu. They are both rated top tier i.e. 5.0 in taijutsu. That's why I think due to Gai's sole dedication in the field and his speed advantage he should come out on top.

However, with Kisame, it's much simpler he's not as fast as Gai but still faster than Tsunade yet not as good with taijutsu. I see this in actuality canceling each other out. Which is why she should take Round 1 and Round 2 belongs to him.


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## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

last I checked kisame can summon shark that can easily bite through his body, I wonder if tsunade can heal having her limbs eaten repeatedly

in water she will be horrendously slower than kisame, bee who is faster than her was getting lol blitz

 slugs splitting up would also be terribly slow in water, they already very unimpressive speed wise on land, I am not sure how they are going to be better in water

also I have yet to see katsuyu split into 1000 different pieces .

I am not sure how kisame looses once he gains the field advantage


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## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> It's a cell reproduction technique.
> 
> Oxygen is meant to sustain cells and create new ones, it is the energy of the body.
> 
> ...



true
but kisame has shown he can summon sharks that can easily bite through his own body. tsunade having to regen limbs constantly in water is bound to exhaust her sooner than later.

she cant stop kisame from barfing a lake and she looses the little advantage she had once water comes out of kisame mouth.

I really do sound like a tsunade hater but I don't know how she wins considering how limited she is

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Saru (Aug 1, 2016)

I don't think Tsunade can win this one (S2).

Kisame actually has no reason to engage Tsunade in CQC when he has sharks, a greater chakra pool than Tsunade, and a battlefield advantage. If Kisame wanted to, I think he could just exhaust all of Tsunade's chakra.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't think Tsunade can win this one (S2).
> 
> Kisame actually has no reason to engage Tsunade in CQC when he has sharks, a greater chakra pool than Tsunade, and a battlefield advantage. If Kisame wanted to, I think he could just exhaust all of Tsunade's chakra.



I don't think she could actually win any scenario with kisame where he isn't brain dead

any slight info he has on tsunade means he barfs a lake. from there she looses all possible advantage she could have

water dome isn't actually needed at all...


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> last I checked kisame can summon shark that can easily bite through his body, I wonder if tsunade can heal having her limbs eaten repeatedly
> 
> in water she will be horrendously slower than kisame, bee who is faster than her was getting lol blitz
> 
> ...



You have yet to see Katsuyu split into a thousand pieces ¿ are you serious.. I know you read the Pain Arc..

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 1, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Kakashi and Gai are not even equal in speed with Gai in base. Attacking in tandem doesn't mean they are in equal speed, and there's no proof that these V2 Jin were weaker than mindless Naruto, who was being kept up by an Orochimaru who couldn't even see Rusty tsunade getting up on his face and punching him.


 They both attacked at the same exact time, reacted at the same exact time to their attacks, and then again attacked at the same time. They weren't even using any coordinated attack sequences, they both just flat-out did everything at the same speed. Also yes there is a lot of proof that they are, go back and reread Orochimaru vs. Three through Four-Tailed Naruto, and then go reread Kakashi and Guy vs the V2 Jinchuriki and it is undeniable that Naruto was much stronger in comparison. 



> These V2 Jin had Sharingan precog, that, let me remind you, allowed Sasuke to go from being blitzed like shit, to start blitzing Naruto, and shared vision that prevented any kind of surprise attack and were giving the superior physically than Orochmaru, Killer Bee, a hell load of troubles.


 That's correct, but they each only had one random Sharingan and Rinnegan. They also weren't all ganging up on Kakashi and Guy at once, Kakashi and Guy each seemingly only fought about one or two at a time. The overall ability that they displayed however still does not succeed what Naruto has done previously.



> The Sannin are only depicted as "much stronger" than them in part 1. In the War, Gai and Kakashi are already on their level, if not above. But that's not the point.


 Not really, throughout both Part 1 and Part 2 the Sannin were overall depicted as more powerful whether it be via hype or feats.



> The point is that if you put Tsunade and any version of Gai in a race, Gai is going to leave her bitting dust. Let alone the 6th gate.


 Based on what he's shown so far, that is clearly not true.



Ryuzaki said:


> Spitting out a lake and spitting out a water one is essentially the same move from Tsunades perspective. Also, lol at Gai needing 7th gate to be faster than Tsunade...I actually, can't anymore. This is too much.


 When 6th Gate Guy is only as fast as regular Sharingan Kakashi, I find it hard to believe he's faster than Tsunade.



> Kisame is faster than all versions of Tsunade as per databook and the same goes for any version of Gai. There are no sped feats for Tsunade, the best one is her jumping feat which is a strength feat, not a speed feat.


 Databook stats are old and outdated, so they're irrelevant. Tsunade's speed feats are clear in the War Arc when she fights Madara, which shit on anything Kisame has ever done. 



Icegaze said:


> last I checked kisame can summon shark that can easily bite through his body, I wonder if tsunade can heal having her limbs eaten repeatedly


 She punches the shark and it dies instantly.



> in water she will be horrendously slower than kisame, bee who is faster than her was getting lol blitz


 Killer B was running from Kisame, Tsunade doesn't need to do that. She can grab onto him when he gets close and punch his lights out. 



> slugs splitting up would also be terribly slow in water, they already very unimpressive speed wise on land, I am not sure how they are going to be better in water


 Katsuyu's ability to split up and divide, as well as come together has been shown to be quite fast actually so I don't know what you are talking about at all. 



> also I have yet to see katsuyu split into 1000 different pieces .
> 
> I am not sure how kisame looses once he gains the field advantage




Did you completely forget how Katsuyu split up and protected the whole village of Konoha and thousands upon thousands of people in the War Arc when she was summoned by Tsunade and Sakura separately? Please stop trolling, I don't want to have a discussion about how Katsuyu is now unable to split up fast enough and quickly fill Kisame's water dome when she has had no problem quickly covering large distances and tending to thousands of people at once before.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> When 6th Gate Guy is only as fast as regular Sharingan Kakashi, I find it hard to believe he's faster than Tsunade.


Sharingan Kakashi also happens to be faster than Tsunade and unlike Tsunade, he's actually been commented on his speed as being fast. Whereas Madara has said precisely that she is slow. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Databook stats are old and outdated, so they're irrelevant. Tsunade's speed feats are clear in the War Arc when she fights Madara, which shit on anything Kisame has ever done.


What speed feats? She never once blitz'd Madara or did anything remotely close. All she has is one strength feat, that you're probably confusing for speed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> She punches the shark and it dies instantly.
> .



, with her super speed in water yh. or would we say she punches it the way bee had no trouble punching kisame...oh wait he couldn't he was getting shit blitz

.





> Killer B was running from Kisame, Tsunade doesn't need to do that. She can grab onto him when he gets close and punch his lights out.
> 
> Katsuyu's ability to split up and divide, as well as come together has been shown to be quite fast actually so I don't know what you are talking about at all. .



and running from kisame made him slower somehow? why on earth would kisame ever get close to tsunade. when that's the only time she can be relevant in battle. ?

this quite fast would be slower in water though. last I checked slugs weren't swimmers.


.





> Did you completely forget how Katsuyu split up and protected the whole village of Konoha and thousands upon thousands of people in the War Arc when she was summoned by Tsunade and Sakura separately? Please stop trolling, I don't want to have a discussion about how Katsuyu is now unable to split up fast enough and quickly fill Kisame's water dome when she has had no problem quickly covering large distances and tending to thousands of people at once before.



lol one would have to assume katsuyu protected the entire village. the entire roots weren't even there for example. some ninja were already dead thus didn't need protecting etc. as for the alliance that feat was done with the help of sakura who we know doesn't need to hold chakra back to look young. and also was gathering her chakra for 2.5 years something tsunade wasn't doing.

you cant just lol she a sannin so her disadvantage in the water is non existent. I mean kisame doesn't even have to attack, draw it out she will use byakuyo till her cells cant divide anymore. slow ass acid which cant hit a giant snake isn't hitting kisame in water. though her would just spit much more water to counter that in any case

a drop of acid in an ocean of water makes no difference. acid spit compared to katsuyu size, is just that spit. really small AoE


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## Icegaze (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> You have yet to see Katsuyu split into a thousand pieces ¿ are you serious.. I know you read the Pain Arc..



I did...but how fast would that be in water though? and has this been a method actually used in battle? I don't know, not seeing how water dome means she summons katsuyu and its start spitting tiny acid in a sea of water. boss summon size katsuyu acid spit had such a small AoE that I don't see how splitting up and using acid spit would be of any use.

though kisame can simply barf more water and carry on. kisame chakra>tsunade chakra. so even playing the exhaust game works to his advantage


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Sharingan Kakashi also happens to be faster than Tsunade and unlike Tsunade, he's actually been commented on his speed as being fast. Whereas Madara has said precisely that she is slow.


 I'm aware that Kakashi has received compliments for his speed before, but Kakashi has also been in a dozen battles whilst Tsunade has only ever been in two throughout the whole series. So it's not really comparable when she clearly wasn't given as many opportunities to be complimented, and her being depicted as overall more powerful than him whilst she specializes in CQC alongside what she has shown would imply they're at least in the same ballpark. Also, Madara said she is slower than A, not slow in general. 



> What speed feats? She never once blitz'd Madara or did anything remotely close. All she has is one strength feat, that you're probably confusing for speed.


 Dude, Madara views Tsunade as dangerous enough in CQC that when she came rushing at him and punched him he chose to use Susanoo to defend. When he leaped away from her and used his Katon, only for Mei to counter with Suiton and send him flying away from Tsunade and towards a flying V2 A, Tsunade immediately crossed the distance and kicked Madara after A had struck him. Later, she was able to corner Madara and force him to use a Mokuton Bunshin to evade being hit by her attack and sealed away: to which he proceeded to attack her from the distance again. Even later, she could survive an encounter with five V3 legged Susanoos all with EMS and even overwhelm one of them and punch them into the ground by relying on her pure CQC skil, and intercept a Katon from Madara whilst Mei was still in the process of forming one hand seal before she ran out of chakra and almost collapsed. Yet you're gonna sit here and tell me that Kisame who's best speed feats are reacting to Team Guy and base Guy makes him much faster and able to beat Tsunade in CQC?


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> , with her super speed in water yh. or would we say she punches it the way bee had no trouble punching kisame...oh wait he couldn't he was getting shit blitz


 Kisame posed no resistance to allowing his own sharks to eat him, he wanted to die so that he could help the Akatsuki. Tsunade is not going to sit there and let some fodder shark eat her alive, and it has no feats to suggest she can not easily one-shot it. 

.



> and running from kisame made him slower somehow? why on earth would kisame ever get close to tsunade. when that's the only time she can be relevant in battle. ?


 What I'm saying is Killer B wasn't attempting to grab onto Kisame and pummel him, he was aiming to run away from him to which he could not do so. Kisame's only way of harming Tsunade is by getting into CQC, so if he wants to win he has to get close and hit her.



> this quite fast would be slower in water though. last I checked slugs weren't swimmers.


 How fast she splits up and divides would not be affected by the water, she'd just float around in it and fill up due to how many of her there is. 


.



> lol one would have to assume katsuyu protected the entire village. the entire roots weren't even there for example. some ninja were already dead thus didn't need protecting etc. as for the alliance that feat was done with the help of sakura who we know doesn't need to hold chakra back to look young. and also was gathering her chakra for 2.5 years something tsunade wasn't doing.


 Based on what we've seen and what was stated, Tsunade protected pretty much the entire village with Katsuyu from Pain's attack. What Sakura summoned was the same sized Katsuyu that Tsunade summoned, you can clearly tell by how she is about the same size as Aoda and Gamakichi who even as adults are both a bit smaller than Manda and Gamabunta, who are a bit bigger than Katsuyu. It's clear that she summoned the typical sized version of her, everything else that you said had no bearing on what portion of her she very much summoned.



> *you cant just lol she a sannin so her disadvantage in the water is non existent. *I mean kisame doesn't even have to attack, draw it out she will use byakuyo till her cells cant divide anymore. *slow ass acid which cant hit a giant snake isn't hitting kisame in water. *though her would just spit much more water to counter that in any case
> 
> *a drop of acid in an ocean of water makes no difference. acid spit compared to katsuyu size, is just that spit. really small AoE*


 I'm not saying her disadvantage is nonexistent because she's a Sannin, I'm saying the disadvantage is irrelevant because he can't get near her without dying. The later bold statements are the same bad arguments you've stated before, which have been shot down. Manda isn't slow, he's extremely fast based on what we saw him do in that chapter. It doesn't matter if her acid is slow anyway because with thousands of Katsuyus all spitting up acid in his water dome it'll get flooded extremely quickly and he'll have no way of attacking Tsunade without getting melted down to the bone. Once she summons Katsuyu in the water dome, the fight is over for Kisame.


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## Kisame (Aug 1, 2016)

Jad said:


> Shark is back! Shit just got real.





Isaiah13000 said:


> Because Tsunade is significantly stronger than Kisame


So was V2 Bee.


> has demonstrated superior speed than Kisame


She is *slower* than Kisame, and he has fought Bee and Gai both who are *faster* than her and he was not outclassed.
In terms of speed, facing her will be easier than any fight he has gotten into in the Manga.


> has far more durability (especially with Byakugo) than Kisame


I disagree, Hirudora and V2 Bee's Lariat did not kill Kisame. And her regeneration does not make her more durable, it means she has regeneration.


> and also has Katsuyu by her side


How is that relevant to their CQC fight? 





> One punch from Tsunade will certainly kill Kisame, or did you forget how ridiculously strong she is?


Hirudora and Bee's V2 Lariat did not kill Kisame, and while I understand that Tsunade's punch was realistically intended to deal heavy damage on an individual level - I just don't think it's that far-reaching to assume Kisame would survive one of her blows (albeit he'd be in a bad condition).


> What does Guy and Killer B have to do with anything?


The fact that they are much faster than Tsunade? Bee is more durable than her especially in tailed states and they are both superior to her in CQC - the point is Kisame handled them.


> If Kisame manages to block her initial punch then Samehada is destroyed and killed, considering V2 Killer B's Lariat busted Samehada right open.


Good that you would bring that up: Samehada was blown right open and nothing happened to it/her (presumably it heals). The next scene Kisame fuses with it like nothing is wrong and after the battle the injuries are not there.

So what we got out of that scene is: Samehada withstood a V2 Lariat and completely healed from it and healed Kisame as well. 


> None of his ninjutsu can kill Tsunade when she's using Byakugo, he can do whatever he wants but he cannot kill Tsunade nor Katsuyu


His sharks can eat her, effectively bypassing her regeneration. Drowning when fighting against Kisame is also implicated in the Manga to be very plausible and effective in a high-level battle; seeing as Bee almost ran out of breath.

So there you go, two ways Kisame has to efficiently deal with Tsunade's regeneration that most characters in the manga do not.





> Kisame is not on the Sannin's level, any of them could beat him mid diff at best.


The way I see it:
*1.* Jiraiya
*2.* Orochimaru
*3.* Kisame
*4.* Tsunade

Jiraiya is perfectly made to handle Kisame due to the extreme variety of his arsenal. Orochimaru in my opinion is also stronger than Kisame.


Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kisame is inferior to Tsunade in general.


I disagree, I think it's the opposite: He has better trump cards and can challenge a variety of opponents at different ranges, I think in general he is more lethal.

Also I think most Manga readers after the display of both characters' feats would believe Kisame is stronger (some by far), the ones who feel the opposite would mostly be Tsunade supporterss or ones that will quote his statement as a main debating point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Average readers (people who don't heavily analyse everything in the manga like we do on the forums) who read the manga simply to enjoy it - will all say Kisame is by far stronger. Kind of like a first impression or something inherently understood.

Kisame is also, a much more likeable character. 



> He is unlikely, in my opinion, to launch a bunch of sharks at an unconscious Tsunade when he can move super-fast and finish her off himself. He didn't seem inclined on using a lot of ninjutsu against Bee underwater, he favoured close range so that he could suck out his chakra, and Tsunade also possesses huge reserves.


He specifically wanted to capture Bee, in Tsunade's case he might decide to use long ranged attacks (especially if he figures out her strength).

Also if Kisame is in fusion mode then it doesn't matter what he decides to opt for, as he is far superior in underwater CQC in that mode than virtually anyone, including Tsunade.


LostSelf said:


> Where have you been, man?
> 
> I actually agree with Kisame's sharks. Not sure how much of the sharks he used to rip his body apart he can use here, but these ones would be very good taking on any Katsuyu division.
> 
> Also, yeah. Kisamehada would drain Katsuyu to nothing worse than how he left a Bijuu and it's host with almost nothing, though. More Katsuyus summoned means more Super Saiyan transformation for Kisame, and that'd be worse.


TheIronMan, is that you? 

If I'm not mistaken the feeding shark techniques he uses chase the opponent down and eat him/her according to the DB rather than a simple dashing strike, which is quite helpful against Tsunade.


Likes boss said:


> @Shark
> 
> The Katsuyu that Tsunade and Sakura summon is merely portions of a massive being in the forest; which is essentially like the size of the God Tree lol. Tsuande summons different portions of the creature depending on the cirucumstance or the amount of chakra she has, hence the difference in size between the Katsuyu she summoned during the Pain arc, the Katsuyu she summoned on her death bed, and the Katsuyu she summoned with Sakura.


Oh, I can't recall any of this so I can't really say much on the matter, sorry.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Jad (Aug 1, 2016)

When someone says that Tsunade is faster than 6 Gates Gai, even when drowned with evidence that it's so far the opposite, you know their logic is wonky. Even an author so clearly more versed in Kishi's work better than us wrote base Gai with a snapped leg moving so fast in base he could leave after images. Taijutsu so impressive he made the villain sweat bricks.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I did...but how fast would that be in water though? and has this been a method actually used in battle? I don't know, not seeing how water dome means she summons katsuyu and its start spitting tiny acid in a sea of water. boss summon size katsuyu acid spit had such a small AoE that I don't see how splitting up and using acid spit would be of any use.
> 
> though kisame can simply barf more water and carry on. kisame chakra>tsunade chakra. so even playing the exhaust game works to his advantage



None of that really is that debate. I was just replying to you when you said that you haven't seen Katsuyu split up 1000 times before.


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## Jad (Aug 1, 2016)

Wouldn't Katsuya split apart in the ocean just be power ups for Kisame. Like candy in the sea he will just insta absorb them.


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Idk, but summoning a massive portion of Katsuyu would just bust Tsuande out of the dome all together. She has the Chakra to do so anyway..

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I'm aware that Kakashi has received compliments for his speed before, but Kakashi has also been in a dozen battles whilst Tsunade has only ever been in two throughout the whole series. So it's not really comparable when she clearly wasn't given as many opportunities to be complimented, and her being depicted as overall more powerful than him whilst she specializes in CQC alongside what she has shown would imply they're at least in the same ballpark. Also, Madara said she is slower than A, not slow in general.


Physically she's strong and knows how to throw down, that's about it for Tsunade, she has no other offensive abilities that would grant her the victory. We can agree to disagree here, because nothing in the manga quantified her speed in relation to the Raikage, thereby she's slower than him but so is the most of the Narutoverse, so that in of itself doesn't mean shit for her ability.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Dude, Madara views Tsunade as dangerous enough in CQC that when she came rushing at him and punched him he chose to use Susanoo to defend. When he leaped away from her and used his Katon, only for Mei to counter with Suiton and send him flying away from Tsunade and towards a flying V2 A, Tsunade immediately crossed the distance and kicked Madara after A had struck him. Later, she was able to corner Madara and force him to use a Mokuton Bunshin to evade being hit by her attack and sealed away: to which he proceeded to attack her from the distance again. Even later, she could survive an encounter with five V3 legged Susanoos all with EMS and even overwhelm one of them and punch them into the ground by relying on her pure CQC skil, and intercept a Katon from Madara whilst Mei was still in the process of forming one hand seal before she ran out of chakra and almost collapsed. Yet you're gonna sit here and tell me that Kisame who's best speed feats are reacting to Team Guy and base Guy makes him much faster and able to beat Tsunade in CQC?


Again strength feats with the assistance of her teammates, she couldn't have pulled that shit off on her own no matter how you slice it. She's not fast enough, she doesn't have the juice to dance with them, in the water dome, she gets stripped, drained and taken out and the only scenario she stands a ghost of chance winning is the 1st round, even then she has to disarm Kisame, otherwise, he will absorb her chakra.


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## Jad (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Idk, but summoning a massive portion of Katsuyu would just bust Tsuande out of the dome all together. She has the Chakra to do so anyway..



But that just seems like easy Chakra for Kisame to steal.


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Jad said:


> But that just seems like easy Chakra for Kisame to steal.


The pure size of Katsuyu would be to large for the dome contain. It would forced to bust. That's what i'm saying basically.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

People forget that Kisamehada can actually sense the chakra emanating from the shinobi, he'll reach her before she has the chance to summon it.


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> People forget that Kisamehada can actually sense the chakra emanating from the shinobi, he'll reach her before she has the chance to summon it.



Wow. Really? Kisame is so much faster that he can literally blitz Tsuande before she can summon?  He's surely faster but he's not V2 Raikage speed under water lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jad (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> The pure size of Katsuyu would be to large for the dome contain. It would forced to bust. That's what i'm saying basically.



Even so. There is a massive powerup for Kisame to absorb right in front of him. Meaning his next dome will be much bigger than what Tsunade can summon.


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Jad said:


> Even so. There is a massive powerup for Kisame to absorb right in front of him. Meaning his next dome will be much bigger than what Tsunade can summon.



I doubt that he has time to absorb much chakra when his dome will be instantly busted. Like literally 0 time to absorb chakra there. The amount of Chakra Katsuyu has also stems from Tsuande, he wouldn't gain much chakra from just Katsuyu itself. I don't think Tsuande gets caught by waterdome multiple times.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Wow. Really? Kisame is so much faster that he can literally blitz Tsuande before she can summon?  He's surely faster but he's not V2 Raikage speed under water lol.


Kisamehada (Kisame/Samehada fusion) not just regular old Kisame underwater was outrunning and blitzing Killer Bee in V2. That fusion status gives him top-tier speed unrivaled, especially underwater. He'll sense the chakra build up before she can weave the seals.


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## Jad (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I doubt that he has time to absorb much chakra when his dome will be instantly busted. Like literally 0 time to absorb chakra there. The amount of Chakra Katsuyu has also stems from Tsuande, he wouldn't gain much chakra from just Katsuyu itself. I don't think Tsuande gets caught by waterdome multiple times.


Kisame doesn't need Waterdome to absorb chakara though. It busts his technique, and he just runs up to the blob of chakara admist the chaos and absorbs.


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kisamehada (Kisame/Samehada fusion) not just regular old Kisame underwater was outrunning and blitzing Killer Bee in V2. That fusion status gives him top-tier speed unrivaled, especially underwater. He'll sense the chakra build up before she can weave the seals.



Can you post the panels where Kisame was "blitzing" V2 Bee¿ I just re-read the entire scene and V2 bee had time to grab his partner and swim away. Kisame was literally chasing him. Bee then confronted him in CQC and got fucked over because Kisame can absorb chakra to the touch. Base Bee also got fucked up, but that's because he thought he had created a diversion with Ink, but it was useless¿ Tsuande would literally have to be like Genin speed for Kisame to blitz her so fast she can't create seals.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Jad said:


> Kisame doesn't need Waterdome to absorb chakara though. It busts his technique, and he just runs up to the blob of chakara admist the chaos and absorbs.


Katsuyu would simply split before Kisame drains her. She probably wouldn't give off much chakra anyway not being connected to Yin Seal user and all.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Can you post the panels where Kisame was "blitzing" V2 Bee¿ I just re-read the entire scene and V2 bee had time to grab his partner and swim away. Kisame was literally chasing him. Bee then confronted him in CQC and got fucked over because Kisame can absorb chakra to the touch. Base Bee also got fucked up, but that's because he thought he had created a diversion with Ink, but it was useless¿ Tsuande would literally have to be like Genin speed for Kisame to blitz her so fast she can't create seals.



Link removed
Link removed

Gyuuki states that "He's faster in water too" and in the follow up Kisame beats them to arriving at Ponta. No way Tsunade is going to compete with that in the Water Dome, especially being much slower than any version of Killer Bee, even if we were to take Base Killer Bee, he's still much faster than her and Kisame made short work of him here.

Link removed

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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> Gyuuki states that "He's faster in water too" and in the follow up Kisame beats them to arriving at Ponta.


What do those panels prove? That Kisame is faster in water, great. That doesn't mean he can blitz Tsuande which was the point. And no... Killer Bee was traveling away from Kisame so hr could lure him away from Ponta. Kisame instead was going to attack Ponta and Killer Bee actually intercepted Kisame. I don't think that's a speed feat for Kisame imo.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> That doesn't mean he can blitz Tsuande which was the point.


How the fuck does that not equal him blitzing a slower, shittier person underwater? 

That has to be the most senile assessment ever. 

I'm done. 

Tsunade fans: Tsunade curbstomps Rikudo Sennin because she has Katsuyu, everyone deal with it.

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## Jad (Aug 1, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Katsuyu would simply split before Kisame drains her. She probably wouldn't give off much chakra anyway not being connected to Yin Seal user and all.



Yeah but that still means there are many power packs Kisame can absorb to grow stronger. However minimal it is, it still allows him to have more stamina than Tsunade.


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> How the fuck does that not equal him blitzing a slower, shittier person underwater?
> 
> That has to be the most senile assessment ever.
> 
> ...



You literally didn't disprove anything. You didn't prove that Kisame could blitz Kb and you didn't prove how he is so fast that he could blitz Tsuande before she could use seals. If anything you proved that KB could keep up with Kisame underwater. 

And exactly why is KB faster than Tsuande underwater where flicker is negated.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Veracity (Aug 1, 2016)

Jad said:


> Yeah but that still means there are many power packs Kisame can absorb to grow stronger. However minimal it is, it still allows him to have more stamina than Tsunade.



That's true. But I don't see this being a battle of endurance.  If Tsuande gets close, Kisame loses his life. If Kisame keeps distance. He could prolly overwhelm Tsuande.  I don't think that was the intial debate anyway. I was talking about Tsuande having a counter to Waterdome which she does.

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## 12771a (Aug 1, 2016)

s1: Tsunade wins
s2: With water dome and shark fusion Kisame should bring the tide to him and win.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> You literally didn't disprove anything. You didn't prove that Kisame could blitz Kb and you didn't prove how he is so fast that he could blitz Tsuande before she could use seals. If anything you proved that KB could keep up with Kisame underwater.
> 
> And exactly why is KB faster than Tsuande underwater where flicker is negated.


Do I really need to explain why a human is slower underwater than a fish? It should be common sense.

KB is faster underwater because he's faster than Tsunade overall. That's all, take any version of Killer Bee we saw since his arrival, he will be leagues faster than Tsunade. 

Underwater Kisamehada is faster than Tsunade by far, since Gyuuki already admitted that Kisamehada was faster than him.

I don't even know why you need an explanation for Tsunade losing underwater considering Kisame took down Roshi by himself, Tsunade would be child's play in comparison.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Veracity (Aug 2, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Do I really need to explain why a human is slower underwater than a fish? It should be common sense.
> 
> KB is faster underwater because he's faster than Tsunade overall. That's all, take any version of Killer Bee we saw since his arrival, he will be leagues faster than Tsunade.
> 
> ...



I never said a fish wasn't faster. I asked why Killer Bee in V2 mode is faster than Tsuande underwater.

Killer Bee isn't leagues faster than Tsuande and why would he be faster than Tsuande underwater when the flciker is a main reason he is faster? 

Kisame is faster than Tsuande underwater, nobody is saying otherwise. He just isn't fast enough to stop Tsuande from summoning at a distance.

You really make it seem like Tsuande is 1 on  battling Kisame underwater? Where did I ever imply that? Tsunade being able to summon =/= Tsuande beating Kisame underwater 1 on 1.

Being Roshi literally means nothing here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 2, 2016)

Shark said:


> So was V2 Bee.


 Tsunade is significantly stronger than V2 Killer B is though, so it's not comparable.




> She is *slower* than Kisame, and he has fought Bee and Gai both who are *faster* than her and he was not outclassed.
> 
> In terms of speed, facing her will be easier than any fight he has gotten into in the Manga.


 If Tsunade is overall portrayed as more powerful than Kisame, and Tsunade's main fighting style revolves around CQC, and she has literally demonstrated superior speed than Kisame. Then she is faster than Kisame, that's really all that has to be said. Base Killer B and Base Guy aren't faster than Tsunade is either, that's baseless. All Kisame has ever done in terms of speed is deal with base Killer B, who is slower, and base Guy, who is also slower, the only thing he has done against Gated Guy is get one-shotted each time. Whilst against V1 - V2 B, he rapidly absorbed all of his exposed chakra so he barely fought him or kept up with him in CQC. His performance against both Guy and B doesn't overcome what she displayed against Madara which I've already posted in this thread.




> I disagree, Hirudora and V2 Bee's Lariat did not kill Kisame. And her regeneration does not make her more durable, it means she has regeneration.


  If Guy's Hirudora can one-shot Edo Madara and his V3 Susanoo, there's no doubt that he toned it significantly down to keep Kisame alive like he was specifically instructed to do. The only reason he survived Lariat is because his body was still left intact and he absorbed all of the exposed chakra afterwards.




> How is that relevant to their CQC fight?
> 
> Hirudora and Bee's V2 Lariat did not kill Kisame, and while I understand that Tsunade's punch was realistically intended to deal heavy damage on an individual level - I just don't think it's that far-reaching to assume Kisame would survive one of her blows (albeit he'd be in a bad condition).


 She's not, I'm simply saying that with Katsuyu involved Kisame is certainly losing. Kisame has no counter to a thousand slugs all using acid on him. There's no proof her acid is chakra-based, so Kisame cannot absorb it.  Look above in regards to Hirudora and Lariat.




> The fact that they are much faster than Tsunade? Bee is more durable than her especially in tailed states and they are both superior to her in CQC - the point is Kisame handled them.


 Look above in regards to Killer B and Guy.




> Good that you would bring that up: Samehada was blown right open and nothing happened to it/her (presumably it heals). The next scene Kisame fuses with it like nothing is wrong and after the battle the injuries are not there.
> 
> 
> So what we got out of that scene is: Samehada withstood a V2 Lariat and completely healed from it and healed Kisame as well.


 Samehada wasn't completely destroyed though, a punch from Tsunade would literally kill Samehada and Kisame. They aren't healing from being killed and that doesn't need an explanation.




> His sharks can eat her, effectively bypassing her regeneration. Drowning when fighting against Kisame is also implicated in the Manga to be very plausible and effective in a high-level battle; seeing as Bee almost ran out of breath.
> 
> 
> So there you go, two ways Kisame has to efficiently deal with Tsunade's regeneration that most characters in the manga do not.


 When Kisame's summoned sharks ate him he posed no resistance whatsoever, you cannot equate a suicidal scene of Kisame having his own summons eat him to Byakugo Tsunade taking them on and saying the result will be the same. Tsunade has survived and fought through having her spinal cord severed, her lungs pierced, her entire abdomen penetrated, and being chopped in half which all defy any form of logical science so there's nothing that suggests she can be drowned while that Jutsu is active.



> The way I see it:
> 
> *1.* Jiraiya
> 
> ...


 Kisame admired inferiority to the Sannin as a whole in Part 1, and in Part 2 Jiraiya is stated to be capable of beating Pain, he says that whoever must've beaten Orochimaru is something else, and Tsunade is contributing the most alongside Onoki moreso than any of the other Kage in a fight against Madara Uchiha: in which she also received compliments from regarding her inheriting some of her grandfather, Hashirama's talent.

Whilst Kisame is defeated two times by someone who is portrayed as weaker than the Sannin, and only beat B because he was well-suited for fighting him and he didn't go all-out in fear of harming his friends. If you go based on hype, feats, and overall portrayal the Manga certainly does not say Kisame > Tsunade.




> I disagree, I think it's the opposite: He has better trump cards and can challenge a variety of opponents at different ranges, I think in general he is more lethal.


 He may be more lethal in specific areas but overall he is not more powerful. Tsunade is actually effective offensively, defensively, and supplementary. She can one-shot 90% of the characters in this series with her physical strength coupled with her great speed, decimate entire battlefields and send her opponent's flying with a punch or kick, she can both heal and harm people with her Shosen, she is knowledgeable on the human body and medicine in general and can make a variety of antidotes, poisons, and their relatives. With the Byakugo, she can make herself nigh-immortal due to illogical and science-defying regeneration, nigh-immune to most of the Genjutsu in the series since the constant flow of chakra into her would dispel it, and grant herself gargantuan reserves to draw on that can be used to enhance her own or the prowess of others whilst also heal and allow them to quickly recuperate.

She can summon Katsuyu, a slug that has been shown to be able to tank Cho Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei with no damage, and withstand no damage from being directly exposed to Naruto's V2 corrosive chakra. She can also split up and divide into a bunch of smaller clones who can all produce acid that is stated to be able to kill Orochimaru of all people and implied to kill Manda, can absorb people into her body to protect them from harm, and can commune telepathically with each other to gather and disperse information. Yet, despite all this, people lowball her constantly and seem to think basically anyone and everyone can easily dodge her attacks, chop her head off, and call it a day. It's no wonder some users call misogyny when people make comments like that.



> Also I think most Manga readers after the display of both characters' feats would believe Kisame is stronger (some by far), the ones who feel the opposite would mostly be Tsunade supporterss or ones that will quote his statement as a main debating point.
> 
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is: Average readers (people who don't heavily analyse everything in the manga like we do on the forums) who read the manga simply to enjoy it - will all say Kisame is by far stronger. Kind of like a first impression or something inherently understood.
> ...


 That only lessens your argument then, because the Manga portrayed all of the Sannin as being stronger than Kisame from beginning to end. If a bunch of casual fans all think one thing that doesn't mean it's more likely to be right, if anything that makes it worse cause they're less knowledgeable than we are and pay less attention than we do. People are simply too wowed by his big AoE attacks when in reality most of them don't even do any actual damage to the opponent, they just fill the area with water.





> He specifically wanted to capture Bee, in Tsunade's case he might decide to use long ranged attacks (especially if he figures out her strength).
> 
> 
> Also if Kisame is in fusion mode then it doesn't matter what he decides to opt for, as he is far superior in underwater CQC in that mode than virtually anyone, including Tsunade.


 The thing is if he uses the Water Dome, fuses with Samehada, and decides to start attacking Tsunade physically all she has to do is punch him one time to end the fight. Or summon Katsuyu and have her divide to flood the dome with acid.



Jad said:


> When someone says that Tsunade is faster than 6 Gates Gai, even when drowned with evidence that it's so far the opposite, you know their logic is wonky. Even an author so clearly more versed in Kishi's work better than us wrote base Gai with a snapped leg moving so fast in base he could leave after images. Taijutsu so impressive he made the villain sweat bricks.


 6th Gates Guy is only depicted as being as fast as regular Sharingan-wielding Kakashi, and Tsunade is depicted as stronger than Guy. Whilst both specialize in CQC and Taijutsu, so it's only logical that she'd beat him in that field most of the time since that's what they boh do. He may be more "skilled" but he is not more lethal most of the time.




Ryuzaki said:


> Physically she's strong and knows how to throw down, that's about it for Tsunade, she has no other offensive abilities that would grant her the victory. We can agree to disagree here, because nothing in the manga quantified her speed in relation to the Raikage, thereby she's slower than him but so is the most of the Narutoverse, so that in of itself doesn't mean shit for her ability.


 I really don't know how to respond to this, we clearly aren't seeing eye-to-eye on anything.





> Again strength feats with the assistance of her teammates, she couldn't have pulled that shit off on her own no matter how you slice it. She's not fast enough, she doesn't have the juice to dance with them, in the water dome, she gets stripped, drained and taken out and the only scenario she stands a ghost of chance winning is the 1st round, even then she has to disarm Kisame, otherwise, he will absorb her chakra.


 Those are both strength and speed feats that she performed on her own, their assistance didn't effect how strong and fast she was. You're being disingenuous to keep passing off and/or ignoring her own actual feats just so you can say that she's much slower than she actually is. I don't have any interest left in debating this with you, since you ignore actual proof and pretty much everything that she can do. You say Kisame is better in CQC, I prove that he isn't, and you come up with an excuse as to why he's better by downplaying or ignoring her performance. I say that she can use Katsuyu to counter his Water Dome and you don't even take that into consideration. I agree that we should agree to disagree, our argument won't get anywhere.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Mithos (Aug 2, 2016)

I wouldn't say Tsunade is faster than Gai even without Gates. Sure, maybe she can cross a shorter distance faster than he can once in a while with a well-placed shunshin or by exploding off the ground with chakra à la Sakura, but Gai's overall mobility in battle is better than hers. 

Tsunade is not a speedster. She is not slow by any means, either. She has the speed and evasive and taijutsu skill to hold her own in most fights and get the job done - no more, no less. 

Speed shouldn't be a deciding factor in this fight, either. Neither Tsunade nor Kisame are too fast for each other.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 2, 2016)

Mithos said:


> I wouldn't say Tsunade is faster than Gai even without Gates. Sure, maybe she can cross a shorter distance faster than he can once in a while with a well-placed shunshin or by exploding off the ground with chakra à la Sakura, but Gai's overall mobility in battle is better than hers.
> 
> Tsunade is not a speedster. She is not slow by any means, either. She has the speed and evasive and taijutsu skill to hold her own in most fights and get the job done - no more, no less.
> 
> Speed shouldn't be a deciding factor in this fight, either. Neither Tsunade nor Kisame are too fast for each other.


I agree that Tsunade's overall mobility is not superior to Guy's, rather what I was referring to is her Shunshin or whatever it is she uses to quickly cross short-to-long range distances better than what he has shown most of the time. Which can be considered a branch of speed, which greatly adds to her ability to land hits and overwhelm people in CQC.


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## Sapherosth (Aug 2, 2016)

Couldn't Kisame just drain her chakra somehow? 


I mean, Kisame drained V1-V2 bijuu level chakra in an instant. I find it hard to imagine Tsunade to have much more chakra than that.


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## Jad (Aug 2, 2016)

Oh lord. Do I have to bust out my patent posts to prove base Gai is far faster than Tsunade, shunshin or not? And that his reflexes and Taijutsu eats her own for supper?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Aug 2, 2016)

Idk about far faster. He's faster in base but not far faster, I'd have to disagree.


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## Jad (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Idk about far faster. He's faster in base but not far faster, I'd have to disagree.


I do. Honestly I think it would be strange a 3.5 in speed Ninja would close the gap on a maxed out Ninja on 5 tier who constantly trains in physical conditioning. And I highly doubt it's a 1.5 difference in speed either. Ontop of the fact Gai has an army of statements, feats and clear representation of my shared depiction, and Kishi's (mainly DB statements) of Gai's speed by another author versed in the manga. This verses someone who has no speed hype.


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## Icegaze (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> None of that really is that debate. I was just replying to you when you said that you haven't seen Katsuyu split up 1000 times before.



Fair enough 

Katsuyu can split . But can it split into more pieces than kisame has sharks . It's all chakra end of the day and kisame got that advantage always 

I just find t odd how willing people are to ignore how easy it is to take tsunade advantage away from her


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## Icegaze (Aug 2, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kisame posed no resistance to allowing his own sharks to eat him, he wanted to die so that he could help the Akatsuki. Tsunade is not going to sit there and let some fodder shark eat her alive, and it has no feats to suggest she can not easily one-shot it.
> 
> .
> 
> ...



She has even less feats to suggest she can strike them in water considering she will be slower than she already is . And they can simply outnumber her 

 why does kisame need to go into cqc ? The guy got sharks that can bite through bone whether he wanted to die or not doesn't turn his body to jelly does it . Kisame can simply keep spamming ninjutsu to force tsunade under water till her cells can't divide any longer at which point she dies 

Manda is slow because he was intercepted by a rusty tsunade not known for speed . Manda on land is undoubtedly slower than a shark moving in water considering gai needed bee to throw him and use 6th gate to catch up to kisame shark under water 

That's the speed gap here 

Never mentioned water dome , though just kisame normal lake should do . And he can certainly keep Barfing more water than Katsuyu can spit acid based on having more chakra


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 2, 2016)

Shark said:


> I disagree, I think it's the opposite: He has better trump cards and can challenge a variety of opponents at different ranges, I think in general he is more lethal.



More versatile? Yes. More lethal? Tsunade can one shot people with her fists, and use her power to do things like shatter Susano'o defenses, outclass Madara Uchiha's Mokuton Bunshin in CQC, one shot Orochimaru, chakra charge her allies attacks into massive upgrades or completely disable her opponents movements with a tap of her palm. In regards to lethality, Tsunade trumps Kisame, who has comparatively less OHKO techniques, with his Water dome being about the height of his power, and even then, it doesn't immediately KO and leaves a lot of scope for retaliation. 



> Also I think most Manga readers after the display of both characters' feats would believe Kisame is stronger (some by far), the ones who feel the opposite would mostly be Tsunade supporterss or ones that will quote his statement as a main debating point.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is: Average readers (people who don't heavily analyse everything in the manga like we do on the forums) who read the manga simply to enjoy it - will all say Kisame is by far stronger. Kind of like a first impression or something inherently understood.
> 
> Kisame is also, a much more likeable character.



I could just as easily say the reverse about Kisame supporters though lol.

Kisame had far more battles than Tsunade: against Asuma and Kurenai, against Team Gai, against Killer Bee, against Gai himself. Tsunade had one battle in Part I where she was rusty and scared of blood, and a second in Part II where she fought _Madara Uchiha_, and a stronger version of him no less. So of course Kisame has more of a " wow he's a badass fighter " kind of vibe. So would Tsunade if she was pitted against the kinds of opponents that he fought, and in peak condition. 

At the end of the day, Kisame admits inferiority to Jiraiya simply because he's a Sannin (not because he witnessed any superior jutsu power), and so he's clearly supposed to be viewed as inferior to them.



> He specifically wanted to capture Bee, in Tsunade's case he might decide to use long ranged attacks (especially if he figures out her strength).
> 
> Also if Kisame is in fusion mode then it doesn't matter what he decides to opt for, as he is far superior in underwater CQC in that mode than virtually anyone, including Tsunade.



Figuring out her strength is irrelevant. If it looks like she's passed out and drowned, why would he bother amassing a bunch of sharks and having them eat her, when he can zoom up to her in fusion mode and suck all her chakra out himself, which is one of the main reasons for as to why he combines with Samehada in the first place. When he tries sucking her chakra out, Tsunade grabs him like Killer Bee's tentacles did, and then she rips him in half.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 2, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I never said a fish wasn't faster. I asked why Killer Bee in V2 mode is faster than Tsuande underwater.


Because he is a Jinchuriki, their V2 modes are always faster and on another level. More to the point he's also an octopus-like figure, so being in the water mitigated some of the advantage that Kisame had. Tsunade won't be so lucky.



Likes boss said:


> Killer Bee isn't leagues faster than Tsuande and why would he be faster than Tsuande underwater when the flciker is a main reason he is faster?


Yes he is faster because he is a Jinchuriki and he was in V2 when Gyuuki made that assessment.



Likes boss said:


> Kisame is faster than Tsuande underwater, nobody is saying otherwise. He just isn't fast enough to stop Tsuande from summoning at a distance.


I disagree, he says he can sense chakra emanating and we've all agreed to some extent in this thread or other ones that Tsunade would need to mount an abundant amount of chakra before summoning Katsuyu. He'll get reach her before she can because Kisamehada was faster than Killer Bee in V2.



Likes boss said:


> You really make it seem like Tsuande is 1 on  battling Kisame underwater? Where did I ever imply that? Tsunade being able to summon =/= Tsuande beating Kisame underwater 1 on 1.


Assuming she does summon Katsuyu, in the absolutely unlikely possibility that this does happen, Katsuyu gets drained and of all her chakra and breaking her up into little pieces is going to do the same. More to the point, it's a slug right? It's more than likely going to shrivel up and die before it can do anything.



Likes boss said:


> Being Roshi literally means nothing here.


It makes an enormous difference, Roshi has the lava-based chakra mode and can use multiple elemental fusions on top that his lava-mode is an inherent weakness to Kisame that can be exploited. For all intents and purposes, Roshi probably gave Kisame the toughest fight out of anyone barring Gai.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Those are both strength and speed feats that she performed on her own, their assistance didn't effect how strong and fast she was. You're being disingenuous to keep passing off and/or ignoring her own actual feats just so you can say that she's much slower than she actually is. I don't have any interest left in debating this with you, since you ignore actual proof and pretty much everything that she can do. You say Kisame is better in CQC, I prove that he isn't, and you come up with an excuse as to why he's better by downplaying or ignoring her performance. I say that she can use Katsuyu to counter his Water Dome and you don't even take that into consideration. I agree that we should agree to disagree, our argument won't get anywhere.


Kisamehada* is better in CQC and I never stated that Kisame himself would outdo her in CQC, in fact I've repeatedly stated that she takes Round 1 the moment Samehada is disarmed from Kisame. She has no speed feats and most of her 'speed feats' come on the hinge of the support she had while tangling with Madara, you are fishing. I know you like to use the 5 vs. 1 Susano'o as a reference but in all seriousness, those Susano'o aren't capable of moving at the same speed as the user, otherwise, they would have been dodging all of her attacks. The real test of that matter was that not 1 of the Kage were able to put a dent into the Susano'o or had any effective means to do so outside of Oonoki.



Likes boss said:


> Idk about far faster. He's faster in base but not far faster, I'd have to disagree.


Gai is roof tier, like Itachi, like Raikage.
Tsunade is 3.5 as of Chapter 400.

It doesn't matter how much she improved or you want her to improve, she's not jumping 2 tiers to engulf either Gai or anyone capable of roof tier speed. Meaning worst case scenario, Gai and co. are about a full tier and a half faster than her and that's the worst case.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 2, 2016)

Jad said:


> Oh lord. Do I have to bust out my patent posts to prove base Gai is far faster than Tsunade, shunshin or not? And that his reflexes and Taijutsu eats her own for supper?


 Yes.



Jad said:


> I do. Honestly I think it would be strange a 3.5 in speed Ninja would close the gap on a maxed out Ninja on 5 tier who constantly trains in physical conditioning. And I highly doubt it's a 1.5 difference in speed either. Ontop of the fact Gai has an army of statements, feats and clear representation of my shared depiction, and Kishi's (mainly DB statements) of Gai's speed by another author versed in the manga. This verses someone who has no speed hype.


 Stats are irrelevant by this point in the series, I don't know why people think it's acceptable to use statistics and even statements from databooks that only go up to Chapter 400 as evidence to further whatever their argument may be. By the War Arc, Tsunade was certainly superior in CQC than Base Guy was. Nothing that he has shown surpasses what she displayed in the fight against Madara, it simply doesn't and there's nothing that proves otherwise. He may be faster when it comes to raw movement and mobility at times, but her ability to close gaps and cross large distances is better. 



Icegaze said:


> She has even less feats to suggest she can strike them in water considering she will be slower than she already is . And they can simply outnumber her


 She strikes them when they get close to her? Or do you now thinks the sharks can easily evade her punches and simultaneously tear her limb-from-limb?



> why does kisame need to go into cqc ? The guy got sharks that can bite through bone whether he wanted to die or not doesn't turn his body to jelly does it . Kisame can simply keep spamming ninjutsu to force tsunade under water till her cells can't divide any longer at which point she dies


 You've provided no logical reasoning behind why some fodder sharks are going to easily kill Tsunade, and Katsuyu simply won't allow her to be overwhelmed to begin with and will turn Kisame's advantage against him by doing what I've stated a dozen times.



> *Manda is slow because he was intercepted by a rusty tsunade not known for speed .* Manda on land is undoubtedly slower than a shark moving in water considering gai needed bee to throw him and use 6th gate to catch up to kisame shark under water
> 
> That's the speed gap here


 Then A is slow because he got intercepted by Suigetsu who is not known for speed. These are how poor your examples are, how are you going to use a feat of Tsunade intercepting Manda when she's completely out of his LoS to say he is slow. Intercepting attacks not directed at yourself has always been portrayed as significantly easier even when against much faster opponents in this Manga, let's not act ignorant now.



> Never mentioned water dome , though just kisame normal lake should do . And he can certainly keep Barfing more water than Katsuyu can spit acid based on having more chakra


 No proof that Katsuyu's acid is chakra-based, and what will that achieve? He still can't harm her.



Ryuzaki said:


> Kisamehada* is better in CQC and I never stated that Kisame himself would outdo her in CQC, in fact I've repeatedly stated that she takes Round 1 the moment Samehada is disarmed from Kisame. *She has no speed feats and most of her 'speed feats' come on the hinge of the support she had while tangling with Madara, you are fishing.* I know you like to use the 5 vs. 1 Susano'o as a reference but in all seriousness, those Susano'o aren't capable of moving at the same speed as the user, otherwise, they would have been dodging all of her attacks. *The real test of that matter was that not 1 of the Kage were able to put a dent into the Susano'o or had any effective means to do so outside of Oonoki.*


 No they don't, her ability to quickly cross a large distance to attack Madara immediately after a flying V2 A did has nothing to do with their support. Her ability to not die in battle against five V3 legged Susanoos all with EMS who are stronger than standard Kage Bunshin has nothing to do with their support. Her ability to quickly leap across the area at and deflect a Katon from Madara while Mei is still forming a single hand seal has nothing to do with their support. I'm aware that the Susanoo are much overall weaker and slower than Madara himself, but they're capable of catching a distracted V2 A off-guard which counts for something. Also yes, we very much saw Tsunade's punch crack Madara's V1 Susanoo and her kick completely destroy it. You cannot deny this, these are both strength and speed feats, and saying otherwise is being intellectually dishonest.


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> They both attacked at the same exact time, reacted at the same exact time to their attacks, and then again attacked at the same time. They weren't even using any coordinated attack sequences, they both just flat-out did everything at the same speed. Also yes there is a lot of proof that they are, go back and reread Orochimaru vs. Three through Four-Tailed Naruto, and then go reread Kakashi and Guy vs the V2 Jinchuriki and it is undeniable that Naruto was much stronger in comparison.



So did Darui and Ei. Is Darui as fast as Ei? Not to mention Kakashi is also faster than Tsunade, who hasn't shown speedfeats to suggest she's as fast as a gated user that lits the air on fire.

No, there's no proof. These guys were kicking Naruto's ass, the same Naruto who was kicking Kage level enemies asses. By powerscaling alone, KN4 would suffer a horrible death against the same paths Gai and Kakashi fought.



Isaiah13000 said:


> That's correct, but they each only had one random Sharingan and Rinnegan. They also weren't all ganging up on Kakashi and Guy at once, Kakashi and Guy each seemingly only fought about one or two at a time. The overall ability that they displayed however still does not succeed what Naruto has done previously.



They were there all the time, and they were attacking. The reason Gai and Kakashi were surrounded was because they were not going one at a time. And yes it does. KN4 only displayed superior strenght, and that's ony by feats and debatable. Because Han displayed very good strenght, to the point of hitting Naruto so hard that not even Killer Bee could stop. The same Killer Bee who bested the Raikage in strenght. The same Raikage that lol-blocked giant Susano'o attacks with one hand. The reason you see them weaker is because you refuse to see Kakashi and Gai on their level.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Not really, throughout both Part 1 and Part 2 the Sannin were overall depicted as more powerful whether it be via hype or feats.



Nothing they displayed is enough to say they are above Gai and Kakashi in part 2.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Based on what he's shown so far, that is clearly not true.



Go make a thread and wake up.


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## Veracity (Aug 6, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Because he is a Jinchuriki, their V2 modes are always faster and on another level. More to the point he's also an octopus-like figure, so being in the water mitigated some of the advantage that Kisame had. Tsunade won't be so lucky.
> 
> Yes he is faster because he is a Jinchuriki and he was in V2 when Gyuuki made that assessment.
> 
> ...


The Jim having V2 mode doesn't mean they are faster than Tsuande. That is a fallacious argument lol. Oro wasn't any slower than V4 Naruto, and Tsuande had no problems being faster than him in CQC. Was KB even I'm octopus form when he was swimming away from Kisame? Even if he is faster( I think he is, just not much faster) than Kisame would have to be MASSIVELY faster than Tsuande to blitz her underwater.

Being a V2 Jin doesn't make you faster than anybody by default. Especially not leagues faster.


Tsuande has like has arguably the best chakra control in the manga. Furthermore, she's a Master at summoning. She could summon a huge amount of Katsuyu like super fast. She isn't getting blizted from several meters away. That would make Kisame like ALOT faster than her. That's not accurate.

You don't get the point. Summoning Katsuyu is literally instantly teleporting her into a new location. If Katsuyu is bigger than the dome, then the dome has literally no time to absorb chakra. It instanly gets busted.

Roshi can't one shot Kisame in a split second. That's a huge deciding  factor.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 6, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> So did Darui and Ei. Is Darui as fast as Ei? Not to mention Kakashi is also faster than Tsunade, who hasn't shown speedfeats to suggest she's as fast as a gated user that lits the air on fire.


 Darui and Ei purposely attacked together, and used C's Genjutsu as an opening to do so while Sasuke was distracted. Guy's ability to set the air on fire is due to his striking speed, not his movement or reaction speed.



> No, there's no proof. These guys were kicking Naruto's ass, the same Naruto who was kicking Kage level enemies asses. By powerscaling alone, KN4 would suffer a horrible death against the same paths Gai and Kakashi fought.


 Dude, KN3 Naruto clawed Orochimaru so hard half of his face was torn open and he was sent flying through the forest like a ragdoll. When he roared he emitted a shockwave large enough to destroy the Kanabi Bridge and send everyone flying away, and when he pursued Orochimaru he demolished the forest. When he went KN4, the swipe of his claws could generate shockwaves that one-shoted Orochimaru's Mandara no Jin, destroy a large chunk of the forest, and literally cut Orochimaru's body in half. Whilst both Guy and Kakashi withstood getting hit by one of them without a problem, they're in no way comparable to that. Do I need to post scans?







> They were there all the time, and they were attacking. The reason Gai and Kakashi were surrounded was because they were not going one at a time. And yes it does. KN4 only displayed superior strenght, and that's ony by feats and debatable. Because Han displayed very good strenght, to the point of hitting Naruto so hard that not even Killer Bee could stop. The same Killer Bee who bested the Raikage in strenght. The same Raikage that lol-blocked giant Susano'o attacks with one hand. The reason you see them weaker is because you refuse to see Kakashi and Gai on their level.


 Some attacked Kakashi and Guy, while others attacked KCM Naruto and Killer B. Han's strength is because of his Futton, which he wasn't using when he went V2. They seem weaker because they're shown to be weaker. 





> Nothing they displayed is enough to say they are above Gai and Kakashi in part 2.





> Go make a thread and wake up.


 First off, hype is more important than feats are and is far more logical and consistent in comparison. You're too focused on Kakashi and Guy having more fights than the Sannin, so you think they're on their level or stronger when they aren't. If you look at the hype that they've all recieved, those two are still below them. Orochimaru was stated to have talent you only see once every generation by Hiruzen himself, who was depicted as surpassing Tobirama since childood. He would've ended up being chosen as Hokage over Minato had it not been for his evil intentions, mere presence scared Kakashi shitless in Part 1, was said to not be underestimated by EMS Sasuke, and abilities were praised by Hashirama himself by the end of Part 2. Jiraiya was depicted on if not above Itachi's level by his own admission, to have been capable of beating Pain had he known the secret to how they functioned and due to being in Ame, was depicted as far above Kakashi when Kakashi realized how insane it was that Jiraiya took on all six while he could barely handle two Pains, and abilities were praised by Obito shortly after his death by the end of Part 2. Tsunade was hailed as the world's strongest kunoichi, greatest medical-nin, was the reason Konoha won the Second Shinobi World War, and abilities were praised by Madara Uchiha by the end of Part 2. From a hype perspective, and if you throw in their actual feats. As a whole, they're all still depicted as beyond Kakashi and Guy with the only way Kakashi can beat any of them is due to the broken Kamui and even that's debatable.


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## Jad (Aug 6, 2016)

Isaiah, Gai has heavy protryal to suggest he is at minumum, Sannin level, and on average above:


Itachi Uchiha warns Akatsuki of Might Gai twice
Stated in the Databook that Itachi Uchiha fled in the face of Might Gai (literally says that)

Zetsu believed him to be a powerful warrior
Stated to be able to fight anyone in the Akatsuki toe-to-toe
Greatest Taijutsu Fighter in Konoha village, and confirmed to be in the Manga as a whole
Above point, could create Taijutsu moves that nearly killed a Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara
Praised by Hachibi and Killer Bee for his fighting power
Praised by Kakashi Hatake his rival, whom is a Genuis Ninja and renowed globally as a Ninja to not take lightly by all Kage levels

Impressed and praised by Obito Uchiha (although pretty sure he only praised his strength)
Impressed KCM Naruto (I like this one)

Impressed and praised by Kisame Hoshigake, a Ninja who hunts Bijuu's for a living and perhaps the greatest Seven Swordsmen of the Mist
Praised by Gaara of the Sand for his fighting ability
Student Lee became a Master of Taijutsu through his tutelage and later on Greatest Taijutsu fighter in Konoha
Honestly some of these points alone stand on equal and/or above Sannin level portrayl

Then if you go into his feats, it becomes apparent. For example, my favorite, pushing back Juubi Madara when a chapter before, he handed Minato, Kakashi and Gaara their asses in two moves. Another one would be getting a *serious Madara *to disappear for an entire chapter, helping Hachibi and himself get released from the Wooden Dragon bindings. But feats could go on and on. And then we have the perspective of a different author closely related to Kishimoto's work, who hypes Gai's Taijutsu skills and speed even more, inline with how I see it exactly for what it is in the manga. For example:

Speed so fast he leaves after images, literally tricking enemies

Strength so powerful he could nearly tear a hole through the hull of a massive air-ship, 

and Taijutsu that can be made up on the fly for any situations (Sea-sickness Fist!) thus showing his vast experience in the area
Durability and resiliency to take hits most likely stronger than his own, multiple times, and still fight effectively

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## LostSelf (Aug 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Darui and Ei purposely attacked together, and used C's Genjutsu as an opening to do so while Sasuke was distracted. Guy's ability to set the air on fire is due to his striking speed, not his movement or reaction speed.



How do you know Gai and Kakashi didn't attack together on purpose? Not to mention that, a panel after, Gai had already outpaced Kakashi, so not sure about them being equal. However, only in the remote case that Kakashi is as fast as 6th gated Gai, that makes Kakashi a lot faster than Tsunade. Not Tsunade faster than Gai.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Dude, KN3 Naruto clawed Orochimaru so hard half of his face was torn open and he was sent flying through the forest like a ragdoll. When he roared he emitted a shockwave large enough to destroy the Kanabi Bridge and send everyone flying away, and when he pursued Orochimaru he demolished the forest. When he went KN4, the swipe of his claws could generate shockwaves that one-shoted Orochimaru's Mandara no Jin, destroy a large chunk of the forest, and literally cut Orochimaru's body in half. Whilst both Guy and Kakashi withstood getting hit by one of them without a problem, they're in no way comparable to that. Do I need to post scans?



Now tell me, did these guys used claws against Kakashi and Gai? Because that could've cut them in half. The same KN4 Naruto hit Sakura with a tail swipe and didn't do much to her other than leaving her a bad burn. It's a very equal comparable feat to the Tail swipes the Jiins did against Gai and Kakashi. Striking with the same methods both showed similar strenght feats. Comparing one using a sharp attack with others not as sharp is not as honest. Let alone using a chakra roar.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Some attacked Kakashi and Guy, while others attacked KCM Naruto and Killer B. Han's strength is because of his Futton, which he wasn't using when he went V2. They seem weaker because they're shown to be weaker.



Yet, Kakashi and Gai were surrounded by all the Bijuus, how is that possible if only some attacked them? So, Naruto was down, Hachibi was down. Kakashi and Gai were still fighting. And these are Bijuus. Unless you tell me KN4 is now stronger than the Bijuus.



Isaiah13000 said:


> First off, hype is more important than feats are and is far more logical and consistent in comparison.



So, let's talk about hype. Wich is funny because you said featwise Tsunade was faster than Gai bar the 7th gate and now you are resorting to hype. (Feats i haven't seen, to be honest). Let me see, then. Gai is praised as the best taijutsu user in the world, praised by Uchiha Madara himself whose praise shits all over any praise Hanzo can give.

Gai has been called fast in any databook, has been called fast in the manga. Has been praised by the very Itachi himself. Where are Tsunade's speed hype? Non-existent just like her speed feats surpassing Gai's? So, we can say Tsunade trumps Gai in healing, while Gai trumps her by a mile in her other especiality: Taijutsu, to the point of clowning her in a pure Taijutsu fight (considering gates are Taijutsu).

Now let's talk about fame: Tsunade survived against Hanzo. Cool, she received a title Gai and Kakashi would've received had they been there. Gai survived against Madara. Gai survived against Obito,both shinobis capable of destroying Hanzo and the Sannin at the same time. Gai saved Naruto twice, Gai did so much in the war that his fame of putting a nice hole in a god's chest surpasses by far, by far any fame the three Sannin can have at the same time.

Why do i use his post war-feats to use them as hype? Because those feats _are _hype. THose feats made Gai a legend far bigger than the Legend of the Sannin. And those feats had witnesses. Had Kakashi, had Gaara, had an alliance. So, we could say the Sannin's hype and fame far eclipsed Gai's at the beggining. But sadly, the theme of the manga is the new generation surpassing the old one.

And Kishimoto ilustrated that perfectly writting the legend of Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi and Gai. Because it's no coincidence that he put them to fight alonside Naruto in the final battle. No coincidence that Gai was the one to save Naruto. No coincidence that Gai surpassed Kakashi, who was bound to surpass his father, whose fame was said to put that of the Sannin's to shame.

So, yeah. Gai and Kakashi's fame are better than the Sannin in the war and post war - weaker before that. Even better than Orochimaru's, who by now eclipses the one of his other Sannin peers.

But i won't extend more in a thread about Kisame and Tsunade considering the debate (That we shouldn't be having here, but in some way it contributes to the thread, as you are using that "speed" to help her against Kisame) is wether Tsunade is faster than 6th gated Gai or not. You used both, feats and hype. And let me tell you that even in hype, base Gai surpasses her speed.

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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 6, 2016)

Jad said:


> Isaiah, Gai has heavy protryal to suggest he is at minumum, Sannin level, and on average above:
> 
> 
> Itachi Uchiha warns Akatsuki of Might Gai twice
> ...


 At best he's on their level but not above them. I don't believe any of that exceeds the level of hype that they're all received as a whole. 



> * Then if you go into his feats, it becomes apparent. For example, my favorite, pushing back Juubi Madara when a chapter before, he handed Minato, Kakashi and Gaara their asses in two moves. *Another one would be getting a *serious Madara *to disappear for an entire chapter, helping Hachibi and himself get released from the Wooden Dragon bindings. But feats could go on and on. And then we have the perspective of a different author closely related to Kishimoto's work, who hypes Gai's Taijutsu skills and speed even more, inline with how I see it exactly for what it is in the manga. For example:
> 
> Speed so fast he leaves after images, literally tricking enemies
> 
> ...


 Bold is an outlier, so that doesn't count. The rest of what you said is valid though.



LostSelf said:


> How do you know Gai and Kakashi didn't attack together on purpose? Not to mention that, a panel after, Gai had already outpaced Kakashi, so not sure about them being equal. However, only in the remote case that Kakashi is as fast as 6th gated Gai, that makes Kakashi a lot faster than Tsunade. Not Tsunade faster than Gai.


 Cause there was no indication that they did, and when did Guy outpace him? Also, like I said before Guy's overall movement speed and striking speed is above Tsunade's but her Shunshin exceeds Guy's movement speed even in the 6th Gate based on what we've seen. 





> Now tell me, did these guys used claws against Kakashi and Gai? Because that could've cut them in half. The same KN4 Naruto hit Sakura with a tail swipe and didn't do much to her other than leaving her a bad burn. It's a very equal comparable feat to the Tail swipes the Jiins did against Gai and Kakashi. Striking with the same methods both showed similar strenght feats. Comparing one using a sharp attack with others not as sharp is not as honest. Let alone using a chakra roar.


 Alright, you win. I forgot that they only hit them with their tail like Naruto did to Sakura, and the tail swipe isn't very powerful. Naruto has still however showcased overall more destructive power in comparison, so Orochimaru's performance is still better especially when you take into account his critical condition.






> Yet, Kakashi and Gai were surrounded by all the Bijuus, how is that possible if only some attacked them? So, Naruto was down, Hachibi was down. Kakashi and Gai were still fighting. And these are Bijuus. Unless you tell me KN4 is now stronger than the Bijuus.


 That didn't happen until later, I was referring to when they first jumped in to help Naruto and B. 






> So, let's talk about hype. Wich is funny because you said featwise Tsunade was faster than Gai bar the 7th gate and now you are resorting to hype. (Feats i haven't seen, to be honest). Let me see, then. Gai is praised as the best taijutsu user in the world, praised by Uchiha Madara himself whose praise shits all over any praise Hanzo can give.


 That's because those feats go hand-in-hand with her CQC skill being above Guy's overall, and Madara Uchiha only praised Eighth Gate Guy. He found Tsunade to be quite dangerous in CQC too which is why he stayed away from her during their battle and attacked from a distance.



> Gai has been called fast in any databook, has been called fast in the manga. Has been praised by the very Itachi himself. Where are Tsunade's speed hype? Non-existent just like her speed feats surpassing Gai's? So, we can say Tsunade trumps Gai in healing, while Gai trumps her by a mile in her other especiality: Taijutsu, to the point of clowning her in a pure Taijutsu fight (considering gates are Taijutsu).


 The thing is, if they both use Taijutsu and Tsunade is declared as stronger, she must be stronger in Taijutsu and thus would beat him in that field despite him being "faster". 



> Now let's talk about fame: Tsunade survived against Hanzo. Cool, she received a title Gai and Kakashi would've received had they been there. Gai survived against Madara. Gai survived against Obito,both shinobis capable of destroying Hanzo and the Sannin at the same time. Gai saved Naruto twice, Gai did so much in the war that his fame of putting a nice hole in a god's chest surpasses by far, by far any fame the three Sannin can have at the same time.


 Tsunade also survived against Madara, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru could likely do so as well. The Obito statement is baseless, and Tsunade also saved Naruto's life once and the lives of countless others. Eighth Gate Guy doesn't count, so that's irrelevant right now.



> Why do i use his post war-feats to use them as hype? Because those feats





> _are _hype. THose feats made Gai a legend far bigger than the Legend of the Sannin. And those feats had witnesses. Had Kakashi, had Gaara, had an alliance. So, we could say the Sannin's hype and fame far eclipsed Gai's at the beggining. But sadly, the theme of the manga is the new generation surpassing the old one.


 Guy surpassed the Sannn with the Eighth Gate I will not deny that, but no hype he's received and no feats he's displayed before then puts him above them.  



> And Kishimoto ilustrated that perfectly writting the legend of Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi and Gai. Because it's no coincidence that he put them to fight alonside Naruto in the final battle. No coincidence that Gai was the one to save Naruto. No coincidence that Gai surpassed Kakashi, who was bound to surpass his father, whose fame was said to put that of the Sannin's to shame.


 Guy didn't surpass Kakashi in the end, DMS Kakashi is still portrayed as more powerful for obvious reasons.



> So, yeah. Gai and Kakashi's fame are better than the Sannin in the war and post war - weaker before that. Even better than Orochimaru's, who by now eclipses the one of his other Sannin peers.


 Overall, with the power-up that Kakashi got from Obito he is more powerful than the Sannin and of course Eighth Gate Guy is too but War Arc MS Kakashi and Seventh Gate Guy are only on their level.



> But i won't extend more in a thread about Kisame and Tsunade considering the debate (That we shouldn't be having here, but in some way it contributes to the thread, as you are using that "speed" to help her against Kisame) is wether Tsunade is faster than 6th gated Gai or not. You used both, feats and hype. And let me tell you that even in hype, base Gai surpasses her speed.


 Look at what I said earlier.


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## LostSelf (Aug 7, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Cause there was no indication that they did, and when did Guy outpace him? Also, like I said before Guy's overall movement speed and striking speed is above Tsunade's but her Shunshin exceeds Guy's movement speed even in the 6th Gate based on what we've seen.



Where are those Shunshin feats that puts her above Gated Gai?



Isaiah13000 said:


> Alright, you win. I forgot that they only hit them with their tail like Naruto did to Sakura, and the tail swipe isn't very powerful. Naruto has still however showcased overall more destructive power in comparison, so Orochimaru's performance is still better especially when you take into account his critical condition.



Is better if you put him one on one. It's not better if he's fighting multiple ones. Killer Bee had to go Bijuu mode to fight these paths of Pain. And he had backup. That alone shows us these Jiins are quite powerful.



Isaiah13000 said:


> That didn't happen until later, I was referring to when they first jumped in to help Naruto and B.



They appeared out of nowhere. We have no idea how this things went out. Not to mention this was a dramatic save to end a chapter.



Isaiah13000 said:


> That's because those feats go hand-in-hand with her CQC skill being above Guy's overall, and Madara Uchiha only praised Eighth Gate Guy. He found Tsunade to be quite dangerous in CQC too which is why he stayed away from her during their battle and attacked from a distance.



Where are Tsunade's CqC skills that puts her above base Gai? Tsunade's only dangerous because of her chakra strenght, not because of CqC skill only. Madara cared so little for her that he even let her approach him and blocked her, calling her slower than the Raikage, who he had reacted before. Clearly her CqC skills and speed didn't impress him. When Gai is praised once he opens gates and moves - Kisame praised him twice and Gaara praised him as well. Gai's taijutsu is leagues above hers.



Isaiah13000 said:


> The thing is, if they both use Taijutsu and Tsunade is declared as stronger, she must be stronger in Taijutsu and thus would beat him in that field despite him being "faster".



She's not "stronger than Gai" unless you talk about physical strenght. And even in the case where she is stronger than Gai, that by no means says her "_Me smash_!" Taijutsu is as good as the man who went toe to toe with Obito's phasing and lasted longer than BM Naruto, who was getting his ass handed to him. Not to mention that Gai's Taijutsu is praised, Tsunade has mostly been praised for her healing. As, again, i haven't seen anything from her that makes her even half as good as Gai's Taijutsu.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Tsunade also survived against Madara, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru could likely do so as well. The Obito statement is baseless, and Tsunade also saved Naruto's life once and the lives of countless others. Eighth Gate Guy doesn't count, so that's irrelevant right now.



She survived against a playful Madara. Gai took him out of an entire chapter with Hirudora, got praise from another Kage that saw Tsunade and Ei in action and called Gai inhuman, Gai blew a hole in Madara's chest, etc. Eight Gate does count. Unless you tell me his hype won't include the 8th gate just because we in this forum don't want to include it because of personal reasons.

Everything Gai did is included in his fame. And the 7th and 8th gate, especially the latter, surely made him way more feared than anything the Sannin has ever achieved.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Guy surpassed the Sannn with the Eighth Gate I will not deny that, but no hype he's received and no feats he's displayed before then puts him above them.



Nothing the Sannin did put them above the 7th gate. We could go on and say they are equal in the 7th gate, as we are mostly debating Tsunade's speed here.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Guy didn't surpass Kakashi in the end, DMS Kakashi is still portrayed as more powerful for obvious reasons.



Kakashi admitted to be surpassed. Wether Kakashi surpassed him afterwards (with an outside powerup, but fair one) is another thing.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Overall, with the power-up that Kakashi got from Obito he is more powerful than the Sannin and of course Eighth Gate Guy is too but War Arc MS Kakashi and Seventh Gate Guy are only on their level.



So you say they are on their level. (That's up to  debate. Some says he's equal, some says he's far above in the 7th, some, the huge minority and mostly Sannin fans, says he's way weaker). But again, the debate is Tsunade's speed, not who is above who. 

Also, i could notice you labelled one of Gai's feats as "outlier". I wonder why him and Kakashi moving at the same time is not an "outlier"?. Would it be an outlier if Tsunade did what Gai did? Or if Itachi did what Gai did? Because i, in my eyes, see nothing of outlier in that feat. Considering it's Gai's Taijutsu and speed. and it's not like it happened in a panel out of nowhere. Gai attacked literally and Kishi bothered to make Gaara and the others comment on it. 

That's something you don't call an "outlier". He was clearly hyping Gai's power there.

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## Jad (Aug 7, 2016)

LostSelf, if that list I posted doesn't press on Gai's massive portrayl and hype, nothing will. And it's from only the big league Shinobi that state such things about Gai.

Everything from feats to statements is considered art error, outlier, dumb, not included. Even Lee is in the crossfire.

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## Saru (Aug 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I don't think she could actually win any scenario with kisame where he isn't brain dead
> 
> any slight info he has on tsunade means he barfs a lake. from there she looses all possible advantage she could have
> 
> water dome isn't actually needed at all...



Kisame barfs a lake and then what?

I don't think Kisame can exhaust all of Tsunade's chakra unless he puts her in water dome. If Kisame barfs a lake, Tsunade can just step back, summon Katsuyu, and alongside the slug deal with his Suiton. Most of his Suiton shouldn't be fatal or even require healing from Byakugou, so Kisame would be wasting more chakra than Tsunade in that scenario.


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## LostSelf (Aug 7, 2016)

Jad said:


> LostSelf, if that list I posted doesn't press on Gai's massive portrayl and hype, nothing will. And it's from only the big league Shinobi that state such things about Gai.
> 
> Everything from feats to statements is considered art error, outlier, dumb, not included. Even Lee is in the crossfire.



I think people put too much faith in the "Sannin" level and background hype. Said hype that is put above all feats. Thanks to that "past fame", nothing Gai does will look impressive for these people because Gai doesn't possess the same past fame as the Sannin, so, since Gai is not threated highly of his contributions to a past war (war he didn't even participated) like the Sannin, they think Gai is inferior. Ignoring that the Gai in that war is not the Gai they are stomping below the Sannin because of "fame", considering he was a child.

Ignoring that feats is the primary way the author uses to portray a character, otherwise, we would be saying that Tsunade is stronger than Sasuke, because she has more fame than him. The only thing the Sannin has over these guys is that, fame of a past war that happened before the manga began, so of course any character that sees them will fear them. Will respect them. And yeah, that's amazing. But that doesn't put them automatically above non-famous characters who has feats backing up to fight their fame.

Like...using background fame as a feat. Or the same "Sannin title" that actually only means surviving against Hanzo. Ignoring that, if Gai were there at the time, he would've been labelled as a Sannin too. The title is not only power, the title is just that, a title.

How people sees Gai, whose _feats _created his fame, after this war, will (or would) give him a lot of fame and be respected or feared as much, if not a lot more than the Sannin themselves. Yet, i wouldn't use his fame of the past to say he's stronger than a new character that's clearly showin to be superior to him based on feats.


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 7, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Where are those Shunshin feats that puts her above Gated Gai?


 Immediately crossing a large area and hitting Madara right after a flying V2 A did, and crossing the area again to deflect incoming Katons from Madara within the same time span it took for Mei to form a single hand seal. 






> Is better if you put him one on one. It's not better if he's fighting multiple ones. Killer Bee had to go Bijuu mode to fight these paths of Pain. And he had backup. That alone shows us these Jiins are quite powerful.


 Of course as a collective unit they're above KN4 Naruto, but Kakashi and Sixth Gate Guy never fought them all together at once. They each only fought about one-to-two of them at a time and were getting overwhelmed, while an arms sealed Orochimaru who's host body was close to rejection was fending off and even overwhelming the individually stronger KN4 Naruto without a problem and laughing the entire time. Whilst as a whole, this guy has been depicted as being less skilled in CQC and Taijutsu as a whole when compared to Tsunade and even got pummeled by her in that field. That indicates a clear gap between Tsunade and Guy.






> They appeared out of nowhere. We have no idea how this things went out. Not to mention this was a dramatic save to end a chapter.


 We saw exactly what happened between Kakashi, Guy, and the V2 Jins. They each fought one, then got overwhelmed by another, then they use Asakujaku and Raiden against a fully transformed Saiken and other V2 Jins, then were cornered as they all transformed until BM Naruto saved them.






> Where are Tsunade's CqC skills that puts her above base Gai? Tsunade's only dangerous because of her chakra strenght, not because of CqC skill only. Madara cared so little for her that he even let her approach him and blocked her, calling her slower than the Raikage, who he had reacted before. Clearly her CqC skills and speed didn't impress him. When Gai is praised once he opens gates and moves - Kisame praised him twice and Gaara praised him as well. Gai's taijutsu is leagues above hers.


 The sheer fact that Madara decided to use Susanoo against Tsunade and attack her from afar, rather than engage in pure Taijutsu with her is indicative of her lethality in CQC. When Tsunade spoke to Madara, and said that Madara was forced to use a Mokuton Bunshin to evade being cornered and defeated in CQC (due to Tsunade), Madara himself agreed and said "...Well it is 5 v 1" and preceded to create 25 of them to fight them. Now before you get on the "5 v 1" statement yes the other Kage helped, but based on what we've seen Tsunade is the main reason. Her skill is further emphasized when we see her managing to fight five of the Mokuton Bunshins all using V3 legged Susanoos on her own and managing to not get bisected, decapitated, ect and even managing to overwhelm one of them on her own. Saying that base Guy's CQC skill is beyond this is dishonest, base Guy isn't impressive at all in the large scheme of things when Kisame with 1/3rd of his reserves who isn't even a Taijutsu specialist was overwhelming him in CQC, and Sixth Gate Guy is only around regular Sharingan Kakashi's level.





> She's not "stronger than Gai" unless you talk about physical strenght. And even in the case where she is stronger than Gai, that by no means says her "_Me smash_!" Taijutsu is as good as the man who went toe to toe with Obito's phasing and lasted longer than BM Naruto, who was getting his ass handed to him. Not to mention that Gai's Taijutsu is praised, Tsunade has mostly been praised for her healing. As, again, i haven't seen anything from her that makes her even half as good as Gai's Taijutsu.


 Look above, that pretty much explains everything.






> She survived against a playful Madara. Gai took him out of an entire chapter with Hirudora, got praise from another Kage that saw Tsunade and Ei in action and called Gai inhuman, Gai blew a hole in Madara's chest, etc. Eight Gate does count. Unless you tell me his hype won't include the 8th gate just because we in this forum don't want to include it because of personal reasons.


 Madara being "playful" is an excuse as always, Madara was only playful in the sense that he didn't use PS to wipe them all out: which is the exact same situation he was in against Kakashi, Guy, Naruto, and Killer B. We literally saw Madara try to kill the Gokage, yet everyone keeps saying "Oh he was playing around" to try to downgrade their feats as much as possible. Gaara's statement is irrelevant, as Seventh Gate Guy's performance was an outlier that contradicts the rest of the Manga and databooks. Unless you consider Sixth Gate Lee being able to throw a Hiraishin Kunai faster than Juubidara and Eighth Gate Guy can move valid? Or Sakura being faster than RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke? Eighth Guy is obviously above the Sannin and pretty much anyone else who isn't God Tier, but that doesn't mean in general he is above them for obvious reasons. That is like stating Guy is above Hashirama because of the Eighth Gate, it is not indicative of his usual strength, and he dies as a result of using it so at best he can only force a draw. 



> Everything Gai did is included in his fame. And the 7th and 8th gate, especially the latter, surely made him way more feared than anything the Sannin has ever achieved.


 Neither of these count, look above.






> Nothing the Sannin did put them above the 7th gate. We could go on and say they are equal in the 7th gate, as we are mostly debating Tsunade's speed here.


 The Seventh Gate's greatest valid feat is overwhelming Edo Madara and wiping out his V3 Susanoo, which only means it's destructive power is far beyond theirs but he isn't overall.






> Kakashi admitted to be surpassed. Wether Kakashi surpassed him afterwards (with an outside powerup, but fair one) is another thing.


 When?






> So you say they are on their level. (That's up to  debate. Some says he's equal, some says he's far above in the 7th, some, the huge minority and mostly Sannin fans, says he's way weaker). But again, the debate is Tsunade's speed, not who is above who.


 Both of them are relevant though, as I'm also arguing that someone like Kisame who got easily defeated twice by Guy (one of which is only on Sharingan Kakashi's level), and is overall at best only on the Sannin's level at his general strongest cannot ever hope to beat one of the Sannin themselves. 



> Also, i could notice you labelled one of Gai's feats as "outlier". I wonder why him and Kakashi moving at the same time is not an "outlier"?. Would it be an outlier if Tsunade did what Gai did? Or if Itachi did what Gai did? Because i, in my eyes, see nothing of outlier in that feat. Considering it's Gai's Taijutsu and speed. and it's not like it happened in a panel out of nowhere. Gai attacked literally and Kishi bothered to make Gaara and the others comment on it.
> 
> That's something you don't call an "outlier". He was clearly hyping Gai's power there.


 It's an outlier because that makes Seventh Gate Guy a God Tier in terms of speed and able to blitz and one-shot Minato, Tobirama, A, and pretty much any other non-God Tier character in the series which is complete bullshit and you know it. It completely contradicts the portrayal Guy has gotten throughout most of the series, even in the damn databooks, he was never portrayed on that level.


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## LostSelf (Aug 7, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Immediately crossing a large area and hitting Madara right after a flying V2 A did, and crossing the area again to deflect incoming Katons from Madara within the same time span it took for Mei to form a single hand seal.



You mean when Tsunade appeared out of nowhere comparing it with an Onoki that appeared out of nowhere and we have no idea when Onoki reached that distance? So i can say 2 gated Gai outpaced Trush seeker balls?

I find funny that you find Gai pushing Madara back wich was even commented an "outlier", yet, you're bringing Tsunade outpacing freaking V2 lightened Ei here as something valid? (When it's not even Ei, Onoki was carrying him).



Isaiah13000 said:


> Of course as a collective unit they're above KN4 Naruto, but Kakashi and Sixth Gate Guy never fought them all together at once. They each only fought about one-to-two of them at a time and were getting overwhelmed, while an arms sealed Orochimaru who's host body was close to rejection was fending off and even overwhelming the individually stronger KN4 Naruto without a problem and laughing the entire time. Whilst as a whole, this guy has been depicted as being less skilled in CQC and Taijutsu as a whole when compared to Tsunade and even got pummeled by her in that field. That indicates a clear gap between Tsunade and Guy.



Then tell me why all of them were surrounding Gai and Kakashi. If only one or two were attacking, the others shouldn't be there, right? But they were, right in front of the two.



Isaiah13000 said:


> We saw exactly what happened between Kakashi, Guy, and the V2 Jins. They each fought one, then got overwhelmed by another, then they use Asakujaku and Raiden against a fully transformed Saiken and other V2 Jins, then were cornered as they all transformed until BM Naruto saved them.



We saw a part of it. We saw both Gai and Kakashi charging against them. next Panel we see Gai further than Kakashi and hitting the next Bijuu, wich means Gai outpaced him.



Isaiah13000 said:


> The sheer fact that Madara decided to use Susanoo against Tsunade and attack her from afar, rather than engage in pure Taijutsu with her is indicative of her lethality in CQC. When Tsunade spoke to Madara, and said that Madara was forced to use a Mokuton Bunshin to evade being cornered and defeated in CQC (due to Tsunade), Madara himself agreed and said "...Well it is 5 v 1" and preceded to create 25 of them to fight them. Now before you get on the "5 v 1" statement yes the other Kage helped, but based on what we've seen Tsunade is the main reason. Her skill is further emphasized when we see her managing to fight five of the Mokuton Bunshins all using V3 legged Susanoos on her own and managing to not get bisected, decapitated, ect and even managing to overwhelm one of them on her own. Saying that base Guy's CQC skill is beyond this is dishonest, base Guy isn't impressive at all in the large scheme of things when Kisame with 1/3rd of his reserves who isn't even a Taijutsu specialist was overwhelming him in CQC, and Sixth Gate Guy is only around regular Sharingan Kakashi's level.



What the actual fuck. Madara used Susano'o because of her chakra punches, not because she's too much for him in skills. The man reacted to a surprise attack from the Raikage and blocked it no problems. And how do you expect he attacks her if his Susano'o was sent flying?

And hell no to the Mokubunshin. Go check on the conversation bubbles on these panels. When Tsunade says "WE" cornered you. When Madara is surrounded by the 5. When Madara says "It's 5 vs 1". It was a team effort. Not Tsunade alone.

The Susano'o clones were also toying around with all of them and Gai would've fared as well as all of them. A simple and easy reason why they were toying around was because they had Tsunade unable to stand up in the middle of them and they just lol watched, having the chance to kill her, Gaara or Mei.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Look above, that pretty much explains everything.



No, that explained nothing of Tsunade's skills other than her Taijutsu is "Me mash". 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Madara being "playful" is an excuse as always, Madara was only playful in the sense that he didn't use PS to wipe them all out: which is the exact same situation he was in against Kakashi, Guy, Naruto, and Killer B. We literally saw Madara try to kill the Gokage, yet everyone keeps saying "Oh he was playing around" to try to downgrade their feats as much as possible. Gaara's statement is irrelevant, as Seventh Gate Guy's performance was an outlier that contradicts the rest of the Manga and databooks. Unless you consider Sixth Gate Lee being able to throw a Hiraishin Kunai faster than Juubidara and Eighth Gate Guy can move valid? Or Sakura being faster than RSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke? Eighth Guy is obviously above the Sannin and pretty much anyone else who isn't God Tier, but that doesn't mean in general he is above them for obvious reasons. That is like stating Guy is above Hashirama because of the Eighth Gate, it is not indicative of his usual strength, and he dies as a result of using it so at best he can only force a draw.



Or having Tsunade, Gaara and Mei collapsed in the floor with all the Susano'os surrounding them and not killing them. If that's not playing around, not sure what it is.

Gaara's statement is not irrelevant because it showcased what Gai is: Superior to Minato in physical speed and taijutsu. Probably superior to Ei as well.

Like i said, only because we, in this forum, want to put Gai in categories of gates and not count his power as a whole doesn't mean in the manga is seen that way. Or that his fame is going to be seen that way. But we are going so much in circles that i'm starting to get tired and abandon this.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Neither of these count, look above.





Isaiah13000 said:


> The Seventh Gate's greatest valid feat is overwhelming Edo Madara and wiping out his V3 Susanoo, which only means it's destructive power is far beyond theirs but he isn't overall.



And is also faster and also more skilled in Taijutsu. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> When?



When Gai was opening the 8th gate Kakashi said "That day came!" or something like that when he remembered his father telling him Gai was goìng to surpass him one day.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Both of them are relevant though, as I'm also arguing that someone like Kisame who got easily defeated twice by Guy (one of which is only on Sharingan Kakashi's level), and is overall at best only on the Sannin's level at his general strongest cannot ever hope to beat one of the Sannin themselves.



Same Kisame who destroyed Killer Bee and was hunting Bijuus. Kisame was easily defeated by Gai because Gai is a terrible matchup for him. That by no means means Kisame is terrible. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> It's an outlier because that makes Seventh Gate Guy a God Tier in terms of speed and able to blitz and one-shot Minato, Tobirama, A, and pretty much any other non-God Tier character in the series which is complete bullshit and you know it. It completely contradicts the portrayal Guy has gotten throughout most of the series, even in the damn databooks, he was never portrayed on that level.



Oh boy, i give up. Good luck. Go make a thread of who's faster and who's more skilled in taijutsu. There might be one Tsunade fan that says she is, because i doubt that even most of Tsunade's fans will agree with that. I'm done here. nice debating with you.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kisame barfs a lake and then what?
> 
> I don't think Kisame can exhaust all of Tsunade's chakra unless he puts her in water dome. If Kisame barfs a lake, Tsunade can just step back, summon Katsuyu, and alongside the slug deal with his Suiton. Most of his Suiton shouldn't be fatal or even require healing from Byakugou, so Kisame would be wasting more chakra than Tsunade in that scenario.



Looool how do they deal with the suiton though . All you said is she steps back and they deal with it . How ?? With mini acid spit ???

We have seen kisame Sharks bite through him and turn him into a pool of blood . Tsunade body isn't more durable than that 

How many times will she be able to heal her limbs being ripped off ?

Kisame has more chakra than her and field advantage . A battle of attrition is exactly what he wants here 

She is the one who is going to have to be on the attack in order to stand a chance of winning 

Unless your logic implies kisame has less chakra than tsunade if so


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## Bringer (Aug 8, 2016)

Scenario 1: Tsunade wrestles Samehada out of Kisame's hand, and chucks it far far away. She then beats the shit out of Kisame. 

Scenario 2: Assuming that Kisame can make a huge water dome without absorbing bijuu chakra first(which we have no proof he can do) then water dome gg. Again, if Kisame can replicate his feat without eating a Killer Bee energy bar first, then I give it to him 7/10 or maybe 8/10. Tsunade's only possible counter would be to summon Katsuyu in the dome, camp inside of Katsuyu,  and then have Katsuyu spam acid so Kisame can boil alive in the water(acid makes water heat up quickly).

Reactions: Creative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Aug 8, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> You mean when Tsunade appeared out of nowhere comparing it with an Onoki that appeared out of nowhere and we have no idea when Onoki reached that distance? So i can say 2 gated Gai outpaced Trush seeker balls?
> 
> I find funny that you find Gai pushing Madara back wich was even commented an "outlier", yet, you're bringing Tsunade outpacing freaking V2 lightened Ei here as something valid? (When it's not even Ei, Onoki was carrying him).


 You can't say Second Gate Guy can do that because that's an interception feat, so they're not comparable. Onoki's flight speed is even faster than V2 A can move as A explicitly stated that he needed to up the speed and in the next panel we see him being lightened by Onoki to move even faster. Also yes, it is valid, because she didn't outpace him whatsoever. She was fast enough via Shunshin to attack Madara immediately after A did, she did not move faster than he did in order to so. 






> Then tell me why all of them were surrounding Gai and Kakashi. If only one or two were attacking, the others shouldn't be there, right? But they were, right in front of the two.


 They all went to surround them and then immediately transformed, they never engaged in combat with all six of them at once. 






> We saw a part of it. We saw both Gai and Kakashi charging against them. next Panel we see Gai further than Kakashi and hitting the next Bijuu, wich means Gai outpaced him.


 The only bijuu Guy hit was Saiken? When did he hit any others?






> What the actual fuck. Madara used Susano'o because of her chakra punches, not because she's too much for him in skills. The man reacted to a surprise attack from the Raikage and blocked it no problems. And how do you expect he attacks her if his Susano'o was sent flying?


  Exactly. With a single punch or kick she could one-shot his entire body or decimate the entire battlefield, so even though he is significantly faster than her he still decided it'd be safer to simply use Susanoo against her. He also clearly leaped away from her after she punched him and decided to use a Katon on her, and again attacked her from the distance with his Susanoo sword later: indicating how dangerous she is in that field. 



> And hell no to the Mokubunshin. Go check on the conversation bubbles on these panels. When Tsunade says "WE" cornered you. When Madara is surrounded by the 5. When Madara says "It's 5 vs 1". It was a team effort. Not Tsunade alone.


 Yet, we see this being said after Tsunade punches Madara's Mokuton Bunshin in half, it gets sealed, and he decides to attack her from afar. Which means even though it was a team effort, she was the main reason.



> The Susano'o clones were also toying around with all of them and Gai would've fared as well as all of them. A simple and easy reason why they were toying around was because they had Tsunade unable to stand up in the middle of them and they just lol watched, having the chance to kill her, Gaara or Mei.


 We saw all of them aiming to kill every single one of them, and perhaps they didn't immediately attack her again because they knew she would simply keep evading or overwhelm one of them again.





> No, that explained nothing of Tsunade's skills other than her Taijutsu is "Me mash".


 Which is enough to make Madara want to use Susanoo against her, and attack her from mid-range to long-range despite the significant speed advantage. 






> Or having Tsunade, Gaara and Mei collapsed in the floor with all the Susano'os surrounding them and not killing them. If that's not playing around, not sure what it is.


 They may not have been relentlessly attacking, but they were going to kill them though regardless.



> Gaara's statement is not irrelevant because it showcased what Gai is: Superior to Minato in physical speed and taijutsu. Probably superior to Ei as well.
> 
> Like i said, only because we, in this forum, want to put Gai in categories of gates and not count his power as a whole doesn't mean in the manga is seen that way. Or that his fame is going to be seen that way. But we are going so much in circles that i'm starting to get tired and abandon this.


 His physical speed being above Minato's is fine, because Minato doesn't rely on that very much. But him being able to actually hit and pressure Juubidara who can easily trash a SM Minato using Hiraishin, could trash KCM Minato considering the much weaker Juubito could, and trash Tobirama using Hiraishin before he even became a Juubi Jin is completely and utterly ridiculous. Him being superior to A is also a major problem, because A has been depicted as the fastest man alive due to Minato's death and now Guy is faster than him? That's why it's a problem.








> And is also faster and also more skilled in Taijutsu.


 Alright.





> When Gai was opening the 8th gate Kakashi said "That day came!" or something like that when he remembered his father telling him Gai was goìng to surpass him one day.


 Oh, well in that case that only refers to the Eighth Gate. 






> Same Kisame who destroyed Killer Bee and was hunting Bijuus. Kisame was easily defeated by Gai because Gai is a terrible matchup for him. That by no means means Kisame is terrible.


 Kisame also only beat B because he is a terrible match-up for B, and because B made it clear he didn't want to hurt his friends or reveal that he was actually alive. Realistically, Kisame has no counter to B immediately transforming and blowing him away with a BD. Kisame also never directly fought and dealt with a bijuu directly, he was only hunting and defeating a bunch of imperfect Jinchuriki who had little if not no control over their bijuu at all so it really isn't that impressive.






> Oh boy, i give up. Good luck. Go make a thread of who's faster and who's more skilled in taijutsu. There might be one Tsunade fan that says she is, because i doubt that even most of Tsunade's fans will agree with that. I'm done here. nice debating with you.


 He may be more "skilled" in a sense but he isn't more lethal than Tsunade is in that department. But alright, it was nice debating with you too.


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## Saru (Aug 8, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Looool how do they deal with the suiton though . All you said is she steps back and they deal with it . How ?? With mini acid spit ???
> 
> We have seen kisame Sharks bite through him and turn him into a pool of blood . Tsunade body isn't more durable than that
> 
> ...



Tsunade doesn't have to engage Kisame if he barfs up a lake.

A character can certainly outlast their opponent if that opponent wasting more chakra than them. This is true of any match up.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> Tsunade doesn't have to engage Kisame if he barfs up a lake.
> 
> Tsunade can certainly outlast Kisame if he's wasting more chakra than her.



Creating new cells in order to not die of oxygen starvation uses chakra which she has less of 

Kisame can certainly keep her underwater and she will be forced to fight back to stay afloat


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## Saru (Aug 8, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Creating new cells in order to not die of oxygen starvation uses chakra which she has less of



Why would Tsunade be creating new cells?



> Kisame can certainly keep her underwater and she will be forced to fight back to stay afloat





Saru said:


> Tsunade doesn't have to engage Kisame if he barfs up a lake.


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## Lord Aizen (Aug 8, 2016)

whats tsunades answer to kisame making a lake then making 1000 water sharks or if kisame decides to create 2000 water sharks. he has the most chAkra in akatsuki so dont say he cant do it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Why would Tsunade be creating new cells?



Submerged in a lake and drowning 
Cells will die of lack of oxygen


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## Saru (Aug 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Submerged in a lake and drowning
> Cells will die of lack of oxygen



A lake is different than a dome of water though. I don't see how or why Tsunade would be submerged in a lake or drowning if water dome is restricted. The only way for Kisame to do that is to knock Tsunade under, and he's not strong enough to do that.

Tsunade doesn't have the issue Gai had (strength).



Lord Aizen said:


> whats tsunades answer to kisame making a lake then making 1000 water sharks or if kisame decides to create 2000 water sharks. he has the most chAkra in akatsuki so dont say he cant do it.



Byakugou punches and 5% Katsuyu's acid should be able to counter that IMO.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> A lake is different than a dome of water though. I don't see how or why Tsunade would be submerged in a lake or drowning if water dome is restricted. The only way for Kisame to do that is to knock Tsunade under, and he's not strong enough to do that.
> 
> Tsunade doesn't have the issue Gai had (strength).
> 
> ...



By attacking her with Jutsu and clones forcing her to be under water . Kisame had little issue getting gai under water without restoring to water dome

Barfing a lake then using 1000 sharks will easily get her underwater or get her to immediately waste chakra summoning katsuyu who will simply break into pieces and start a war of attrition with kisame who has more chakra 

So kisame doesn't need to get into a physical contest with her when that's the only time she will be relevant in this fight


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## t0xeus (Aug 9, 2016)

Longer the fight continues, the bigger advantage will Kisame have. With manga knowledge, he will go to the fight carefully and after he realizes that she can't really kill him with her punches as Samehada simply sucks out the chakra before impact, he outlasts her.

Mid diff for Kisame.


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## Saru (Aug 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> By attacking her with Jutsu and clones forcing her to be under water . Kisame had little issue getting gai under water without restoring to water dome



Gai went underwater because he was weaker than Kisame. Tsunade is not.



> Barfing a lake then using 1000 sharks will easily get her underwater or get her to immediately waste chakra summoning katsuyu who will simply break into pieces and start a war of attrition with kisame who has more chakra



Kisame's sharks would not bother Katsuyu and Tsunade much at all. They should be able to tank them without doing anything. No chakra needed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gai went underwater because he was weaker than Kisame. Tsunade is not.
> 
> 
> 
> Kisame's sharks would not bother Katsuyu and Tsunade much at all. They should be able to tank them without doing anything. No chakra needed.




Kisame doesn't have to physically go and push tsunade down 
A wave of sharks will do the trick . It's a wall of water crashing on her 

Lol so tsunade can tank a shark bite that bit through kisame body


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## Lord Aizen (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Byakugou punches and 5% Katsuyu's acid should be able to counter that IMO.



the sharks regenerate and she doesn't have the speed to fight off 1000+ sharks at once not even guys morning peacock was enough. these sharks are made out of water acid would do no damage. since they are attacking tsunade acid would backfire onto tsunade


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## Lord Aizen (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gai went underwater because he was weaker than Kisame. Tsunade is not.
> 
> 
> 
> Kisame's sharks would not bother Katsuyu and Tsunade much at all. They should be able to tank them without doing anything. No chakra needed.


 
they're sharks, they bite your head and limbs off, theres no tanking here. shes going to need her seal active or she gets ripped to pieces


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## Saru (Aug 9, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> they're sharks, they bite your head and limbs off, theres no tanking here. shes going to need her seal active or she gets ripped to pieces



Kisame's sharks have never "bitten" anything. Just like Suiton dragons have never chomped through anyone's torso.

If you're talking about the sharks Kisame summoned, they're definitely not bothering Tsunade and Katsuyu.


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## Lord Aizen (Aug 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kisame's sharks have never "bitten" anything. Just like Suiton dragons have never chomped through anyone's torso.
> 
> If you're talking about the sharks Kisame summoned, they're definitely not bothering Tsunade and Katsuyu.



Water dragons are used as a form of wave. Water sharks behave the same as any other shark their means of attack is through chomping. why do you think they have multiple rows of sharp teeth. Kisame used a shark against guy and the shark was trying to bite guy but guy used his feet to prevent that from happening, google water shark jutsu its the first image that comes up.

how are 1000 bloodlusted sharks not going to bother her when they are trying to eat her, hence the name of the jutsu 1000 Feeding sharks, theyre going to feed on her.
katsuyu is useless against them, acid does nothing since they are water


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Water dragons are used as a form of wave. Water sharks behave the same as any other shark their means of attack is through chomping. why do you think they have multiple rows of sharp teeth. Kisame used a shark against guy and the shark was trying to bite guy but guy used his feet to prevent that from happening, google water shark jutsu its the first image that comes up.
> 
> how are 1000 bloodlusted sharks not going to bother her when they are trying to eat her, hence the name of the jutsu 1000 Feeding sharks, theyre going to feed on her.
> katsuyu is useless against them, acid does nothing since they are water



I gave up a while ago

Apparently sharks that can bite through bone and have the advantage underwater are no bother to tsunade who is going to be slower underwater and simply can't get away

Funny I had no idea katsuyu was a good swimmer either

But hey she tanks cuz why not she a sannin

water shark bomb itself is simply water crashing at you at high speed as per DB description however when he uses multiple sharks like 5 DB describes them as using their teeth to tear through the enemy imitating a real shark 

It took 5 sharks to turn kisame into a pool of blood . Kisame can create 1000's


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## Lord Aizen (Aug 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I gave up a while ago
> 
> Apparently sharks that can bite through bone and have the advantage underwater are no bother to tsunade who is going to be slower underwater and simply can't get away
> 
> ...


Yes apparently tsunade has the ability to punch faster and longer than 6 gated guy. Not even his morning peacock was enough to fight them off but for tsunade it'll be no bother.

tsunades a sannin she automatically gets 3rd raikage durability and 7 gated guy reactions and reflexes.


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## Jad (Aug 9, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Yes apparently tsunade has the ability to punch faster and longer than 6 gated guy. Not even his morning peacock was enough to fight them off but for tsunade it'll be no bother.
> 
> tsunades a sannin she automatically gets 3rd raikage durability and 7 gated guy reactions and reflexes.



Don't forget better Taijutsu then Gai, faster then his 6th Gate mode, and able to survive a Meteor busting punch 

She craps on her Sannin peers


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Yes apparently tsunade has the ability to punch faster and longer than 6 gated guy. Not even his morning peacock was enough to fight them off but for tsunade it'll be no bother.
> 
> tsunades a sannin she automatically gets 3rd raikage durability and 7 gated guy reactions and reflexes.



Lol I end up feeling that way half the time 
I mean gai large scale taijutsu couldn't stop them all but they won't be a bother for tsunade 

That bit shocks me

Can slugs swim honest question


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2016)

Who said that?


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## Saru (Aug 10, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> Water dragons are used as a form of wave. Water sharks behave the same as any other shark their means of attack is through chomping. why do you think they have multiple rows of sharp teeth. Kisame used a shark against guy and the shark was trying to bite guy but guy used his feet to prevent that from happening, google water shark jutsu its the first image that comes up.
> 
> how are 1000 bloodlusted sharks not going to bother her when they are trying to eat her, hence the name of the jutsu 1000 Feeding sharks, theyre going to feed on her.
> katsuyu is useless against them, acid does nothing since they are water



That doesn't change any of the facts I stated. Kisame's Suiton sharks aren't any more likely to chomp through Tsunade and Katsuyu than Suiton dragons are. Amaterasu is named after the goddess of the sun--unsurprisingly it's not as hot as its name suggests.

When I mentioned Katsuyu's acid, it was in reference to what Tsunade and Katsuyu would be doing to fight back against Kisame, not how they would literally counter or defend against his Suiton. Suiton can and have been tanked in this series, and that's the defense I think Tsunade and Katsuyu are most likely to find success with.

I'm pretty sure Katsuyu tanked Konoha-sized Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. I'm pretty sure if she tanked those things she can tank Kisame's Suiton too.



LostSelf said:


> Who said that?



Good question.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> That doesn't change any of the facts I stated. Kisame's Suiton sharks aren't any more likely to chomp through Tsunade and Katsuyu than Suiton dragons are. Amaterasu is named after the goddess of the sun--unsurprisingly it's not as hot as its name suggests.
> 
> When I mentioned Katsuyu's acid, it was in reference to what Tsunade and Katsuyu would be doing to fight back against Kisame, not how they would literally counter or defend against his Suiton. Suiton can and have been tanked in this series, and that's the defense I think Tsunade and Katsuyu are most likely to find success with.
> 
> ...



Tanking shira tensei isn't indicative of being rip proof . Kisame got turned into a pool of blood by 5 sharks 

Yet was merely charred by hirudora

Again there is hyperbole and describing what the technique actually does . The Jutsu is called feeding sharks for a reason because it's water doesn't mean it can't do what the summoned sharks did considering the DB states they feed on the victim . 

That's different to using water shark BULLET. Which is high speed water impact . 

Same way Crimson fire nail and hosenka look similar but they aren't the same Jutsu 

I wonder where in the DB it states water dragon bites the victim 

Lol
It doesn't


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## Bringer (Aug 11, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Tanking shira tensei isn't indicative of being rip proof.





"I can survive being split apart just fine."




*Spoiler*: _Databook 2 - Katsuyu Daibunretsu_ 
NINJUTSU; Katsuyu Daibunretsu (Katsuyu's Grand Division of the Slugs*)
User: Katsuyu
Supplementary; Rank: none

Main text

Capturing her is impossible already! Because she is a boneless mollusk, she has a fantastical ability to transform at will, that of deciding to divide her whole body or to reunite it. All physical attacks are nullified before this technique. No matter how violent the strike, it won't amount to more than a fruitless attempt. The enemy will just exhaust themselves accordingly and eventually fall to the ground.

Caption

-Her mollusk's body, which has no part that can be grasped, brings forth a full-body division!

Picture comment

-She avoids the attacks by dividing her whole body. And she did so with ease, even against Manda, Orochimaru's summoned Great Snake's firm and tight grip.
*"Katsuyu" is just a custom reading for "namekuji", which translates as "slug".


Kisame's sharks isn't going to be doing much to Katsuyu, imo.

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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> "I can survive being split apart just fine."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To tsunade it would though

Which is the point ain't it . When I said rip proof is she can be ripped not that ripping it affects it
what happens if the sharks keep shredding katsuyu is smaller, katsuyu will get even smaller which makes the scale of their attacks that much smaller.

so I know it ripping it wont kill katsuyu.

Tsunade however can't survive being ripped apart and her much slower in water slug won't be helping much against 1000's of sharks constantly attacking

Katsuyu uses tsunade chakra to stay on the field as well

This will be a battle of attrition which kisame can't loose due to having more chakra


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## Bringer (Aug 11, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> To tsunade it would though
> 
> Which is the point ain't it . When I said rip proof is she can be ripped not that ripping it affects it
> what happens if the sharks keep shredding katsuyu is smaller, katsuyu will get even smaller which makes the scale of their attacks that much smaller.
> ...




Hmm, question. Are you discussing scenario 1 or scenario 2 right now? 

Because scenario 1 I really doubt Kisame can drown Tsunade without water dome. Especially since the area is the Sannin Deadlock battlefield. When Kisame fought Team Gai encountered Kisame in a area that could be flooded. The Sannin Deadlock area seems to be a flat grassy plain with some boulders here and there. 

Besides, when Gai got drowned it was because Gai lost a contest of strength against Kisame. Tsunade won't have that problem. 

Scenario 2 I agree Tsunade loses to Water Dome if Kisame can use the one on the scale he did against Killer Bee(one could argue that's something he couldn't do without absorbing Killer Bee's chakra first). At that point Tsunade's best bet would be to camp inside Katsuyu, hold her breath, and have Katsuyu spam acid in the dome to boil Kisame alive, but the fact that that's the only counter I see for Tsunade while Kisame has plenty of counters in the dome brings me to believe Kisame would most likely win.


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## Icegaze (Aug 11, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Hmm, question. Are you discussing scenario 1 or scenario 2 right now?
> 
> Because scenario 1 I really doubt Kisame can drown Tsunade without water dome. Especially since the area is the Sannin Deadlock battlefield. When Kisame fought Team Gai encountered Kisame in a area that could be flooded. The Sannin Deadlock area seems to be a flat grassy plain with some boulders here and there.
> 
> ...



scenario without water dome. any boulders will be submerged in water very quickly so the area is irrelevant as it would become a lake off the bat

again kisame doesn't have to physically go and punch tsunade down, a wall of 1000 sharks crashing on tsunade will obviously submerge her in water, I don't see how that isn't obvious. between, all his water jutsu and clones, getting tsunade underwater will be very simple.

lol how long can she hold her breath also, katsuyu tiny scale acid compared to the size of kisame lake would hardly do much.

kisame wins in all scenarios, one simply makes excuses for tsunade. she got a slug who cant hit a snake with no speed hype and she is stuck to cqc range against someone who has no need to approach her for the duration of the fight

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## Saru (Aug 11, 2016)

There's no "proof" that Kisame's sharks can rip anything in the first place. .-.

Aside from that, academy ninja can walk on water. Tsunade in particular has been shown to be a user of chakra to the feet to the brace herself.

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## Bringer (Aug 11, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> scenario without water dome. any boulders will be submerged in water very quickly so the area is irrelevant as it would become a lake off the bat
> 
> again kisame doesn't have to physically go and punch tsunade down, a wall of 1000 sharks crashing on tsunade will obviously submerge her in water, I don't see how that isn't obvious. between, all his water jutsu and clones, getting tsunade underwater will be very simple.
> 
> ...




Tsunade can literally jump over the wall of 1000 sharks... she's been known to bound a hundred meters into the air while holding a massive sword.




Or she could just disperse the lake



Also, I think we could give Tsunade the benefit of the doubt and say she can hold her breath longer than Tenten/Rock Lee/Neji. 

Katsuyu is a 100 meter tall slug. 


Without water dome, Kisame can't dream of submerging Katsuyu. And when you scale the acid off her size, that's a lot of acid. 

From google.

"A large amount of heat is released when strong *acids* are *mixed* with *water*. Adding more *acid* releases more heat. If you add *water* to *acid*, you form an extremely concentrated solution of *acid* initially. So much heat is released that the solution may boil very violently, splashing concentrated *acid* out of the container!"

So Tsunade could simply jump out of Kisame's lake range. Jump over his wall of sharks. Disperse it with a chakra enhanced punch. Or just summon Katsuyu to spam acid in his lake to boil Kisame alive.

Kisame can't beat Tsunade without Water Dome.

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## Icegaze (Aug 12, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Tsunade can literally jump over the wall of 1000 sharks... she's been known to bound a hundred meters into the air while holding a massive sword.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry so kisame barfs a lake her response is to punch the ground to disperse the lake . That water doesn't disappear though . Unless you talking about her creating a fissure in the ground or something 

In that situation won't kisame just move and barf another lake . I also think the speed at which he barfs these lakes would give her no time to react st all . Killer bee didn't why would tsunade 

Jumping over the wall of sharks won't help .. She has to land don't she . The sharks would still be there waiting for her 

Jumping in the air also reduces her evasive ability which makes it easy for kisame to launch a second attack and since he has better range he can attack her before she can attack him 

Again it takes a certain amount of acid to boil a lake since kisame can always barf more water than katsuyu can spit acid said water would be no more than lukewarm . It's acid spit after all and its range is extremely tiny compared to a 100m slug if it divides each tiny portion would spit a much tinner acid


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## IzayaOrihara (Aug 15, 2016)

... and even with Water Dome he can't, as @BringerOfChaos showed. It is just silly to assume Kisame can beat a Sannin.




*Spoiler*: _The same Suigetsu that feared Orochimaru ..._ 











The Sannin are just another level from Kisame. Jiraiya had the capacity to beat Pain. Tsunade won respect from Madara. And aside what I showed in the panels above, Orochimaru was thrice compared to Minato, once to Tobirama and once to Prime Hiruzen. Meanwhile Kisame was just a hypeman and a lapdog for Itachi. He is nothing to the Sannin. Suigetsu who feared a Sannin had no fear of Kisame.


Katsuyu could even kill Orochimaru, who Kisame feared and respected, so Water Dome doesn't mean anything here. Isn't that right @BringerOfChaos ?

Just summoning her inside the dome would bust it. Base Zesshi Nensan let alone a 100 x bigger Byakugo enhanced variant will turn Kisame into boiled sushi inside that dome.

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## Seekingsoul (Aug 15, 2016)

Kisame is more in his element when fighting huge monsters like imperfect Jins as he's able to grow considerably stronger as the battle progress; hence his title, "the tailless bijuu".

Against Tsunade, or any Sannin for that matter, he won't do so hot.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2016)

Actually if possible I would like to recant 

Without water dome kisame looses 

Barfing out just a regular lake is something tsunade can easily jump over , lee and the rest could


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> The Jim having V2 mode doesn't mean they are faster than Tsuande. That is a fallacious argument lol. *Oro wasn't any slower than V4 Naruto,* and *Tsuande had no problems being faster than him in CQC. *Was KB even I'm octopus form when he was swimming away from Kisame? Even if he is faster( I think he is, just not much faster) than *Kisame would have to be MASSIVELY faster than Tsuande to blitz her underwater. *_*Being a V2 Jin doesn't make you faster than anybody by default. Especially not leagues faster.*_
> 
> Tsuande has like has arguably the best chakra control in the manga. Furthermore, she's a Master at summoning. She could summon a huge amount of Katsuyu like super fast. *She isn't getting blizted from several meters away. That would make Kisame like ALOT faster than her. That's not accurate.*
> 
> ...


The stuff in bold is either obvious troll material or the fanboyism is hitting new levels. But really, what the fuck am I reading?

Orochimaru actually has a full tier advantage over Naruto, who in his 3T-V1 form sent him flying into the woods. Killer Bee was shocked that Sasuke dodged his 3T-V1 and mentioned that only someone like his brother (aka fastest shinobi in the manga at the time) is the first to dodge it. So based on repeated evidence the version-forms exceptionally increase your speed. What Killer Bee did to Kisame is exactly what Kisame (underwater) would do to Tsunade (underwater). That fused form is leagues faster than anything she has demonstrated, she could summon Katsuyu but Kisame would just absorb her chakra and Katsuyu's. V1/V2 chakra and density is completely different. You need to freshen up on the manga, re-read Naruto vs. Orochimaru and Kisame vs. Killer Bee.

Roshi was using elements that directly make Samehada's ability to absorb chakra much more difficult. It's no wonder Kisame had difficulty with him the guy has a Lava Chakra Mode which would turn most water around him into steam. Roshi was easily the toughest capture, way tougher than Killer Bee. Kisame didn't even break a sweat against Killer Bee. Yet boasted about how Roshi used multiple different elemental fusions and was a skilled shinobi.

FYI, Tsunade isn't on the level of these Jinchuriki, which is why Waterdome + Kisamehada = Death for her.

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## Icegaze (Aug 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> There's no "proof" that Kisame's sharks can rip anything in the first place. .-.
> 
> Aside from that, academy ninja can walk on water. Tsunade in particular has been shown to be a user of chakra to the feet to the brace herself.



Except kisame himself 
Who got turned into a pool of blood


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## Saru (Aug 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Except kisame himself
> Who got turned into a pool of blood



talking about the ones made of water


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## Ashi (Aug 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> talking about the ones made of water




Dont they work the same way?


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 22, 2016)

^ They should considering they gave Gai much problem.


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## Ashi (Aug 22, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> ^ They should considering they gave Gai much problem.




But Guy vaped them all in the an instant


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## Saru (Aug 22, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Dont they work the same way?



Kisame's Suiton Sharks are featless, and although the Databook claims that Kisame's sharks can tear away at the opponent, I doubt they'd do be able to do much to Katsuyu or Tsunade. If you're durable enough to tank Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, and corrosive Kyuubi chakra, then sharp teeth probably won't bother you too much.

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## Ashi (Aug 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kisame's Suiton Sharks are featless, and although the Databook claims that Kisame's sharks can tear away at the opponent, I doubt they'd do be able to do much to Katsuyu or Tsunade. If you're durable enough to tank Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, and corrosive Kyuubi chakra, then sharp teeth probably won't bother you too much.




Well Katsuyu isnt  made of anything that can suggest she can survived being chewed up... Neither is Tsunade for that matter


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## Icegaze (Aug 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> talking about the ones made of water



True the ones made of water have no feats of eating through anyone despite being described that way

I wonder when has katsuyu split up into several mini ones and actually used acid through more than one mini clone. Logically of course katsuyu can 

Logic also says if water shaped like needles have the ability to pierce then water shaped like sharks have the ability to bite


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## Mithos (Aug 22, 2016)

NinjaTensa said:


> Well Katsuyu isnt  made of anything that can suggest she can survived being chewed up... Neither is Tsunade for that matter



Katsuyu said she can "survive being split apart just fine" when talking about how Mabui's teleportation technique would tear Tsunade apart. Sharks ripping off pieces of Katsuyu would just create more mini-Katsuyu. Physical damage like that is fruitless against her body. Hell, she can even melt herself into _goo_ and reform. 

Tsunade should be able to deal with shark bites just fine - provided she doesn't get any limbs torn off. (I believe her regeneration technique can handle lost limbs but it would be a big disadvantage to have to heal that type of damage). And since she has super strength and can just swat the sharks I don't think they would manage that.

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## Sapherosth (Aug 22, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Katsuyu said she can "survive being split apart just fine" when talking about how Mabui's teleportation technique would tear Tsunade apart. Sharks ripping off pieces of Katsuyu would just create more mini-Katsuyu. Physical damage like that is fruitless against her body. Hell, she can even melt herself into _goo_ and reform.
> 
> Tsunade should be able to deal with shark bites just fine - provided she doesn't get any limbs torn off. (I believe her regeneration technique can handle lost limbs but it would be a big disadvantage to have to heal that type of damage). And since she has super strength and can just swat the sharks I don't think they would manage that.




It doesn't get split apart in a sense that it's split in 2....It gets eaten alive. It doesn't create more, it reduces.



Lastly, wouldn't Kisame's jutsu that absorbs chakra technically would absorb Tsunade's Byakugo and her chakra? Kisame's own chakra absorbing abilities are also quite good, draining Killer Bee's own reserve pretty much instantly.

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## Ryuzaki (Aug 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It doesn't get split apart in a sense that it's split in 2....It gets eaten alive. It doesn't create more, it reduces.
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, wouldn't Kisame's jutsu that absorbs chakra technically would absorb Tsunade's Byakugo and her chakra? Kisame's own chakra absorbing abilities are also quite good, draining Killer Bee's own reserve pretty much instantly.


Yeah, and Aoba I think, I can't remember the guy that was with them that shot the spikes at Kisame and had his chakra instantly drained


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## Mithos (Aug 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> It doesn't get split apart in a sense that it's split in 2....It gets eaten alive. It doesn't create more, it reduces.
> 
> Lastly, wouldn't Kisame's jutsu that absorbs chakra technically would absorb Tsunade's Byakugo and her chakra? Kisame's own chakra absorbing abilities are also quite good, draining Killer Bee's own reserve pretty much instantly.



The sharks can't eat enough of Katsuyu before the clones can kill the sharks with acid or Tsunade can hit them. But even if some of Katsuyu is reduced, the rest can still fight. And if necessary, Tsunade can just summon more of Katsuyu. 

And if we're talking about the water sharks, they're not "eating" anything.

Which chakra absorbing jutsu are you talking about? He has a couple, and I was only talking about how Tsunade and Katsuyu don't have to worry too much about getting bitten by sharks/water sharks.


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## Icegaze (Aug 23, 2016)

Mithos said:


> The sharks can't eat enough of Katsuyu before the clones can kill the sharks with acid or Tsunade can hit them. But even if some of Katsuyu is reduced, the rest can still fight. And if necessary, Tsunade can just summon more of Katsuyu.
> 
> And if we're talking about the water sharks, they're not "eating" anything.
> 
> Which chakra absorbing jutsu are you talking about? He has a couple, and I was only talking about how Tsunade and Katsuyu don't have to worry too much about getting bitten by sharks/water sharks.



Why do we assume katsuyu can just breathe underwater ?
Slugs can drown you know 

So it ain't like the Sharks really need to do much they just need to continuously stop katsuyu from getting to the surface 

If we talking about no water dome 

With water dome slug drowns , tsunade drowns 

Slugs aren't good swimmers last I checked


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## Jad (Aug 23, 2016)

These Katsuya clones just seem like battery packs for Kisame. Like energy bars in video games...


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