# Goku (with every level of SSJ (1,2,3,4.) vs Superman.



## The Fireball Kid (Jun 4, 2006)

So, who would win?


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 4, 2006)

Superman would


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## shibigoku (Jun 4, 2006)

it's been done an x number of time. Superman can pull a planet. Superman is the strongest.


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## Reznor (Jun 4, 2006)

Goku v Superman? PLEASE.

We've all moved on to big and better things. Like Vegitto v Superman Prime.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jun 5, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> Goku v Superman? PLEASE.
> 
> We've all moved on to big and better things. Like Vegitto v Superman Prime.



Quoted for truth.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 5, 2006)

Superman in a walk.


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## kaizuki (Jun 5, 2006)

ok so superman can pull a planet.well guess what,goku can blow it up!!!!!!!!!


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## Gambitz (Jun 5, 2006)

well if goku ss4 is included and he's fighting super man then goku would win.....all goku has to do is use the sprit bomb..


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 5, 2006)

At a gas station guys.

Like Reznor said, we've all moved to bigger things. Vegito vs. Superman Prime. Can't get any bigger than that except for tag team.


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## Agent Mars (Jun 5, 2006)

I think Goku at SSJ would beat Superman.


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 5, 2006)

kaizuki said:
			
		

> ok so superman can pull a planet.well guess what,goku can blow it up!!!!!!!!!



 Goku never blew up a planet.


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## Agent Mars (Jun 5, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Goku never blew up a planet.



That doesn't mean he couldn't.

Plus one word or should I say one rock would end it dead in its tracks.

Kryptonite.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 5, 2006)

Goku doesn't even know what Kryptonite is.

And a spirit bomb doesn't work on the pure of heart.


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## RealaMoreno (Jun 5, 2006)

Superman eassssily.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jun 5, 2006)

Can Superman withstand a 10x Kamehameha? Or a Chou Genki Dama?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 5, 2006)

Genki Dama wouldn't do a thing to him because he's pure of heart.

Besides, it takes like 10 episodes to charge up anyway.

Kamehameha would just bounce off of him.


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## Keollyn (Jun 5, 2006)

kaizuki said:
			
		

> ok so superman can pull a planet.well guess what,goku can blow it up!!!!!!!!!



I think pulling/pushing a planet is infinitely more impressive than blowing it up... unless you do it with your voice (Sans Blackbolt)


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## Endless Mike (Jun 5, 2006)

Besides, Superman won't just wait around for Goku to charge up his attacks.

It would be like this:

Goku: Ka-

Superman: *flies in and beats him to a pulp*


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## Anthriel (Jun 5, 2006)

With few expections, we usually have no way to compare the speed of superfast characters.

So these discussions usually degrade into useless fanboy babble, as this one here already has.



> I think pulling/pushing a planet is infinitely more impressive than blowing it up... unless you do it with your voice (Sans Blackbolt)


 Not really. If you look at it scientifically, you need a completely absurd amount of force to destroy planets, because the gravitational forces at work there are, well, absurd.

And the thing is, Dragonball characters could blow up planets ever since the beginning of DBZ (well, Vegeta could). The later versions of said characters are god knows how many times stronger than that.


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## mortsleam (Jun 5, 2006)

Goku beats that shitty hero


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## Keollyn (Jun 5, 2006)

Anthriel said:
			
		

> With few expections, we usually have no way to compare the speed of superfast characters.
> 
> So these discussions usually degrade into useless fanboy babble, as this one here already has.
> 
> ...



And you think moving that same kind of planet with your own strength doesn't take an absurd amount of force to accomplish? Besides, the blast could get help from the planet. Destruction from the inside could aid said blast.

Edit: And Vegeta couldn't destroy planets of Earth size and density. And the one he did was filler. I can also throw to you the many contractions of DBZ to prove how weak they ACTUAL grow to become.


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## Anthriel (Jun 5, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And you think moving that same kind of planet with your own strength doesn't take an absurd amount of force to accomplish? Besides, the blast could get help from the planet. Destruction from the inside could aid said blast.


Destruction from the inside? Planets rarely blow themselves up just because they feel like it. 

Moving Earth doesn't take much power by itself, a worm can do it. Moving it at a decent speed is a different matter obviously. And though it does take an absurd amount of force, it takes a way more absurd amount of force to blow it up.



> Edit: And Vegeta couldn't destroy planets of Earth size and density. And the one he did was filler. I can also throw to you the many contractions of DBZ to prove how weak they ACTUAL grow to become.


 Yeah. But we usually use the strongest versions of comic characters among all the contradicting versions out there, so why should we use the strongest versions of Manga/Anime characters as well?


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## Keollyn (Jun 5, 2006)

Yeah the planet's core has nothing to do with the planet, eh?

So this worm.... does it move the earth off it's axis and goes against the gravitational pull? Is his name Earthworm Jim?


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## Anthriel (Jun 5, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Yeah the planet's core has nothing to do with the planet, eh?


 The core actually happily stays together. It has no reason to go apart, unless some kind of gigantic force wants it to move. But it certainly won't help that force.



> So this worm.... does it move the earth off it's axis and goes against the gravitational pull? Is his name Earthworm Jim?


You would be suprised, but this little worm actually moves sun millions of lightyears away from our sunsystem. As does this little Hydrogen atom over there. Granted, it is probably less than 1/googolplex^googolplex metre a minute, but better than nothing at all.


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## Reznor (Jun 5, 2006)

> Yeah the planet's core has nothing to do with the planet, eh?


 Earth =/= death star

It doesn't have a "reactor core" that when hit destroys the whole thing.


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## Keollyn (Jun 5, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> Earth =/= death star
> 
> It doesn't have a "reactor core" that when hit destroys the whole thing.



Never said all planet busters do the same thing. I'm referring to DBZ now. Take your SW elsewhere. Or go make a thread about it.


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## acritarch (Jun 6, 2006)

Superman wins. Easily.

This has been done. Use the search button.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 6, 2006)

Goku can use instantaneous movement ("Instant Transmission" for you dub watchers.). Superman would try to attack, Goku would dissapear behind him, and kamehemeha him to death. And besides, Doomsday killed Superman. Are you guys actually saying DOOMSDAY could beat Goku? For God's sake, Spiderman beat Superman. I'm just saying, can Superman move at the speed of light? I know he turned back time by spinning the planet, Vegeta blew up a planet with out even powering up, at the beginning of the god damn series. All in all, Goku dies like 3 times, and ends up turning into God and/or Shenlong.

Goku > Vegeta > Superman.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> Goku can use instantaneous movement ("Instant Transmission" for you dub watchers.). Superman would try to attack, Goku would dissapear behind him, and kamehemeha him to death. And besides, Doomsday killed Superman. Are you guys actually saying DOOMSDAY could beat Goku? For God's sake, Spiderman beat Superman. I'm just saying, can Superman move at the speed of light? I know he turned back time by spinning the planet, Vegeta blew up a planet with out even powering up, at the beginning of the god damn series. All in all, Goku dies like 3 times, and ends up turning into God and/or Shenlong.
> 
> Goku > Vegeta > Superman.




1. It takes a few seconds to lock on to a target and move with IT, he won't have that long.

2. Superman was much weaker then.

3. Non - canon crossover, and Spiderman was amped up by a red sun device, and Spiderman didn't actually win.

4. Movies are non - canon.

5. Superman can, and has, gone faster than light on many occasions, even Post - Crisis.

6. GT is non - canon, and we don't know what happened after he absorbed the dragonballs, for all we know it could have made him weaker.


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## Zouri (Jun 6, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> Goku can use instantaneous movement ("Instant Transmission" for you dub watchers.). Superman would try to attack, Goku would dissapear behind him, and kamehemeha him to death. And besides, Doomsday killed Superman. Are you guys actually saying DOOMSDAY could beat Goku? For God's sake, Spiderman beat Superman. I'm just saying, can Superman move at the speed of light? I know he turned back time by spinning the planet, Vegeta blew up a planet with out even powering up, at the beginning of the god damn series. All in all, Goku dies like 3 times, and ends up turning into God and/or Shenlong.
> 
> Goku > Vegeta > Superman.



Superman can travel through time with his speed. Well, some Supermans could. He's not as fast as Wally, but he can keep up with him for a good while.

Goku can't move at light speed either. Only with IT would he be close, if he isn't light speed at that point.

Just so you know, Raddiz never moved at light speed. It was a translation error.

Vegeta didn't blow up a planet at the beginning of the series. That was filler if I'm not mistaken. It also showed Vegeta breathing in space.


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## shibigoku (Jun 6, 2006)

kaizuki said:
			
		

> ok so superman can pull a planet.well guess what,goku can blow it up!!!!!!!!!



... killing himself in the process, while Superman would survive it unscatted. And don't talk about him teleporting while it explodes. Goku takes at least two seconds to concentrate on someone and warp. Imagine when trying to find another living being in outer space.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 6, 2006)

Up late, at a motel for now.

_Goku can use instantaneous movement ("Instant Transmission" for you dub watchers.). Superman would try to attack, Goku would dissapear behind him, and kamehemeha him to death._

You really underestimate Superman's durability. Really underestimate it.

_And besides, Doomsday killed Superman. Are you guys actually saying DOOMSDAY could beat Goku?_

Actually, pre-Infinite Crisis (non-evolved intelligence) Doomsday could have posed a threat. By then, he was immune to energy attacks and physical attacks and having his molecules dispersed.

Plus, if Goku managed to generate enough force greater than Entropy (the end of time), then Goku would easily win.

_For God's sake, Spiderman beat Superman._

During the crossover? Non-canon.

_Vegeta blew up a planet with out even powering up, at the beginning of the god damn series._

Filler. Never happened in the official canon.

_All in all, Goku dies like 3 times, and ends up turning into God and/or Shenlong._

Goku's hardly omnipotent.

Goku > Vegeta > Superman

Post-Crisis Superman (without mental blocks) > Post-Crisis Superman > or = Goku > Vegeta


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 6, 2006)

Goku becomes God at the end of (the God awful) DBGT series. Goku could just use IM and teleport to Earth, get the Dragon Ball radar and locate all the Dragonballs while avoiding Superman (Superman can't sense people, if I'm not mistaken.) and even if he could, Goku can bring his power level to zero, making him impossible to find. Superman would have to scale the whole planet. Goku could summon Shenlong and wish that Superman was dead (well, maybe. I forgot, can you wish people dead with the DBalls?) and if he couldn't do that, he could just wish that Superman was in the deadzone. Even if Goku is weaker, he can hide extremely well, travel at extreme speeds, and has the ability to wish Superman away/kill him.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2006)

Except that if it didn't work on Vegeta and Nappa, it certainly wouldn't work on Supes who is much stronger.

And if you want to go the prep route, Superman just grabs a Phantom Zone projector and traps Goku's entire planet in the Phantom Zone.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 6, 2006)

Goku and Vegeta could fuse and become SSJ4 Gogeta. I mean, Gogeta could dodge most of S-mans attacks (via Zanzôken).




			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Key points to remember in the fight:
> 
> Super Saiyan 1 Goku
> 
> ...



and



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> A vs thread that is debated frequently between Dragonball and Superman fans, illustrated in issue #133 of the magazine Wizard. Suffice to say, Goku won quite easily in the fictional battle, needing only to go Super Saiyan 1 to defeat Superman. However, it must be noted that this article was not official and does not represent either character's true power in any form.
> 
> In the article, the story goes: "The wizard Babadi manipulates Goku into thinking an eighth Dragonball exists on a parallel Earth protected by an invincible Kryptonian. The Super Saiyan crosses over dimensions and finds the Man of Steel inspecting a LexCorp satellite. Goku introduces himself by throttling Superman into a nearby moon. Shaking it off, Supes dodges the next couple of lunges, but his mysterious foe's martial arts prowess and teleportation ability allows him to land more blows. The Man of Steel proves to be able to absorb more punishment than the orange-clad bruiser, and surprises Goku with a couple of blasts of heat vision. Wanting to end the struggle, Goku rapidly teleports, landing a dozen blows to Supes in the span of a second. Not falling for the same trick, Superman's super-vision detects a particle flux when Goku teleports, allowing him to anticipate where his foe will appear. As the Z Warrior winks out and reappears, Superman unleashes a haymaker, pounding Goku deep into the moon's surface. The Man of Steel demands an explanation of this assault, but Goku amps up to Super-Saiyan mode and fires off a Kamehameha blast that fries Supes like a fish stick! Pressing his attack, a furious Goku unleashes a planet-destroying punch that hits a stunned Superman square in the "S" shield, knocking him clear off the moon and back toward Earth. Realizing the fall might kill the Kryptonian. Goku teleports and catches Superman before he goes splat. It is then that Goku senses there are no such Dragonballs on this Earth. Apologizing for his dishonor, Goku humbly begs for forgiveness before heading back to his own dimension to take out the lying Babidi. Puzzled at what had just happened, a woozy Superman collapses unconscious, awaiting medical treatment."
> 
> ...


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 6, 2006)

No way. There is not a wikipedia article on this.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 6, 2006)

I just checked.

There isn't.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 6, 2006)

It's at this . It's almost at the bottom of the page. Fucktards.


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## Reznor (Jun 6, 2006)

> 6. GT is non - canon, and we don't know what happened after he absorbed the dragonballs, for all we know it could have made him weaker.


 Note the "4" in the title.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Jun 7, 2006)

My policy in DBZ vs. Superman:

Only a fusion character has what it takes.  Goku needs help from Vegeta as for has I'm concerned.

Goku is strong, but for this opponent he can't do it alone.

Superman FTW.


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## Valdens (Jun 7, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> It's at this URL. It's almost at the bottom of the page. Fucktards.


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## Santí (Jun 8, 2006)

Could of at least made this into a poll

well personaly I think Goku would beat it...ya super man can pull a planet but...goku can blo it up like another member said.


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## Id (Jun 8, 2006)

Superman pulling planets is an example or a feat that shows 
Strength Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku.

Besides I don?t see the point of Goku blowing up a planet. Superman can ?*Breath*? in space Goku cant.

On a different note, Superman heat vision exceeds the temperature of the sun.


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## Zaru (Jun 8, 2006)

Goku is so fast Superman won't even hit him.


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## Mugiwara (Jun 8, 2006)

Goku can beat superman even when goku's a child! 

He just needs that green thingy.. Then it's all settled


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## Id (Jun 8, 2006)

Zakuzaru said:
			
		

> Goku is so fast Superman won't even hit him.



Superman has shown he can move at high speed comparable to flash on foot.

He moves even faster in flight.

He has even shown that in flight he can move 4 times the speed of light. 
Compared to DBZ characters who up to this date has yet to show *a single scan *that proves they move at the speed of light.

Speed Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku.


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## Shepard (Jun 8, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Superman pulling planets is an example or a feat that shows
> Strength Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Goku.
> 
> Besides I don’t see the point of Goku blowing up a planet. Superman can “*Breath*” in space Goku cant.
> ...


And you think  Gokuh can destroy a planet (even the solar system) and can't pull a planet?

Gokuh doen't need to breath in space, he just has to teleport wherever there's oxygen.

I'm pretty sure any powered up kamehameha exceeds the sun's temperature as well.


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## Perfect Moron (Jun 8, 2006)

Yeah, dbz chars' physical strength isn't that great. They're strong, but I don't remember any particular feat comparable to Superman's.


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## Id (Jun 8, 2006)

Izuna said:
			
		

> And you think  Gokuh can destroy a planet (even the solar system) and can't pull a planet?
> 
> Gokuh doen't need to breath in space, he just has to teleport wherever there's oxygen.
> 
> I'm pretty sure any powered up kamehameha exceeds the sun's temperature as well.



No I don?t think Goku can pull the planet. In SS4 he could barely pick up a building. Raw Strength is just something Goku is inferior to Superman.

And no I don?t think Kameha exceeds the suns temperature, it was never stated if you want to prove me wrong show me a scan and some logic behind it.


The best thing for Goku to do is for him to blow up a planet and run away using ?IT?.

Besides Goku didn?t survive a planet destroying attack, 
Superman Survived a Galaxy ending attack.


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## Shepard (Jun 8, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> No I don’t think Goku can pull the planet. In SS4 he could barely pick up a building. Raw Strength is just something Goku is inferior to Superman.
> 
> And no I don’t think Kameha exceeds the suns temperature, it was never stated if you want to prove me wrong show me a scan and some logic behind it.
> 
> ...


OK, I see your points however I havn't seen GT (and I sure don't want to) so here my max is SSJ3 Gokuh.
Now, think over we're talking about dudes who can destroy the solar system completely (stated by cell in his SSJ2-like status) but, since I don't have proof of Gokuh actually moving a planet (wich personally I'm pretty sure he can do) 1st point goes to you, however a Ki ball that can blow up the solar system exceeds IMO the sun's temperature by far.
Also, SSJ1 Gikuh can withstand multipe ki-plantet destroyer balls (like the green ones fom Broly in example) he's gotten much better from Namek.


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## Id (Jun 8, 2006)

Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and go along that a Ki ball exceeds the temperature of the Sun. (Althou when Vegita and Cell blew themselves up  Cell destruction would potential destroy earth, and Vegita only made a crater, Hardly  Solar System ending.)

Ill move on, Goku can not survive raw heat temperature of the sun, a direct hit from Superman Heat vision at full force would be devastating to Goku.

Yet Superman Survived being Dipped in sun, and has bin known to use alternative energies that resemble the Sun. (Stars, other Suns and other forms of raw energy).

Aside from the fact that Superman has survived, Planet ending, and Galaxy ending attacks. I seriously doubt Goku (who would need to charge his Kameha) would do much damage with his Kame ha full power.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Jun 8, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> No I don?t think Goku can pull the planet. In SS4 he could barely pick up a building. Raw Strength is just something Goku is inferior to Superman.
> 
> And no I don?t think Kameha exceeds the suns temperature, it was never stated if you want to prove me wrong show me a scan and some logic behind it.
> 
> ...




Thank you.  These are my points exactly. Which is why I belief only Goku/Vegeta fusions have a snowball's chance in hell against the Man of Steel.

Goku might be able to do it...

But Goku *WILL *need serious help (and an entire season) to do it.  Supes ain't going down easy.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 8, 2006)

In the movie with Cooler, Goku shoots Cooler into the sun, in only SSJ1. Also, I read that many of the characters in DBZ CANNOT GO AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. It has been confirmed that only Vegeta, Goku, Cell and Buu have moved this fast in the series. Also, I must add, even in mid series Dragonball, Goku and Krillin could use the Zanzoken, a technuique in wich the user moves so fast, he leaves an after image. I have yet too see Superman move so fast that he leaves an after image. 

Zanzoken:


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## Id (Jun 8, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> In the movie with Cooler, Goku shoots Cooler into the sun, in only SSJ1. Also, I read that many of the characters in DBZ CANNOT GO AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. It has been confirmed that only Vegeta, Goku, Cell and Buu have moved this fast in the series. Also, I must add, even in mid series Dragonball, Goku and Krillin could use the Zanzoken, a technuique in wich the user moves so fast, he leaves an after image. I have yet too see Superman move so fast that he leaves an after image.
> 
> Zanzoken:




Escaping a black hole and accelerating past 182,000 miles per second. 
(note its stated Superman is reaching the speed of light, and light does not travel at 182,000 miles per second in a black hole due to some gravity issues among other things.)


Now if you don?t mind, ware is it stated the Buu, Cell, Vigita, and Goku reached the speed of light? (Manga Chapter? please)


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 8, 2006)

Nevermind what I said, It's unofficial.


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## prateek (Jun 9, 2006)

superman would get pasted at anything past supersaiyan let alone ssj4 and dont bitch about precrisis either. Goku is also immortal at the end of gt so he cant be killed and neither can superman. but in a fight supes would get pasted


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## Endless Mike (Jun 9, 2006)

I see no proof for your statements.


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## SSJKrillin (Jun 12, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and go along that a Ki ball exceeds the temperature of the Sun. (Althou when Vegita and Cell blew themselves up  Cell destruction would potential destroy earth, and Vegita only made a crater, Hardly  Solar System ending.)
> 
> Ill move on, Goku can not survive raw heat temperature of the sun, a direct hit from Superman Heat vision at full force would be devastating to Goku.
> 
> ...




Vegeta wasnt aiming to destroy the earth. He want to kill Buu. What would the point be of blowing up the earth if he would be killing the epeople he wanted to protect (Bulma, Trunks, and yes even Kakkarot).

Anyways as stated before Cell stated he could destroy the universe with a single attack. Goku SS4>>>>>>>>>Super Cell

Im not sure how Goku would handle Supes' heat vision, as there is no clear gauge of his strength. He might be able to shrug it off or it might mess him up. 

Again this fight is almost impossible to tell. There are clear speeds and powers that Supes has, whereas Goku is riddled with inconsistancies. For all we know the disk he used to cut Majin Buu could slice Superman in half.

Meh


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## Seto Kaiba (Jun 12, 2006)

I think Goku would destroy Superman, SSJ2 I think, would be the most he'd have to use, SSJ3 & 4 would just be overkill.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> Now if you don’t mind, ware is it stated the Buu, Cell, Vigita, and Goku reached the speed of light? (Manga Chapter? please)



Sure Id here is a scan and proof that DBZ moves *FASTER THAN LIGHT SPEED!!!*



> those ships are saiyan space pods,Bulma said that with their fastest ship it would take 4,339 years to get to Namek and their fastest ship fly's at least with 60.000 km/h,but with a saiyan space pod it only takes a couple of days so those ships were moving at light speed or above.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



Now DBZ characters move faster than light speed way faster!


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## Dark Evangel (Jun 12, 2006)

Superman can push a planet in a size of pluto without much effort and can travel 99.9% of light speed Goku has never stated to travel at light speed. His instant transmision can probably travel at light speed but he atleast need to locate any sign of life force and it takes a few second to make Goku teleport. Now if we are talking about SSJ4 Goku should we atleast make Superman (Pre-Crisis)?


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## FinalDragon13 (Jun 12, 2006)

yea but Goku always teleported around during a battle, and he could do this to Superman... Plus Goku, if he wanted, could have destroyed an entire Galaxy.  IMO Goku would kill Superman in an instant!

         'Nuff said


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> Superman can push a planet in a size of pluto without much effort and can travel 99.9% of light speed Goku has never stated to travel at light speed. His instant transmision can probably travel at light speed but he atleast need to locate any sign of life force and it takes a few second to make Goku teleport. Now if we are talking about SSJ4 Goku should we atleast make Superman (Pre-Crisis)?



Did you read my scans and my last post on the last page? *Obviously DBZ fights way past the speed of light!!!* 

Also pushing planets is a useless feat, I wish Superman fanboys would stop using that. Goku> Planet.


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## Keollyn (Jun 12, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Vegeta wasnt aiming to destroy the earth. He want to kill Buu. What would the point be of blowing up the earth if he would be killing the epeople he wanted to protect (Bulma, Trunks, and yes even Kakkarot).
> 
> Anyways as stated before Cell stated he could destroy the universe with a single attack. Goku SS4>>>>>>>>>Super Cell



I don't care what you DBZ defenders say about the whole "Vegeta was just trying to destroy Boo, not the planet." If you release ALL of your energy (in this case, a SSJ2) at once, and only manage to cause a crater... that says alot about their power. Especially when people like to post shit like what I'm going to comment on next....

Cell never said anything about being capable of destroying the universe. You must get your eyes/ears (depending on which media you viewed) checked. He said that he has enough power to destroy the solar system (I even bet that was hyperbole... what with the Earth still intacted after two solar system buster collided and all)



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Also pushing planets is a useless feat, I wish Superman fanboys would stop using that. Goku> Planet.



I'm certain Goku isn't as heavy as a planet....


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> I'm certain Goku isn't as heavy as a planet....



You damn right he's not, He's heavier, much heavier!!!


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## Endless Mike (Jun 12, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You damn right he's not, He's heavier, much heavier!!!



Then why doesn't the earth orbit around him?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 12, 2006)

Damn, is it early here. . . but good sunrise.

_You damn right he's not, He's heavier, much heavier!!!_

. . . 

What kind of response is that suppose to be? And what purpose (being heavier than a planet?!) does that specifically serve?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 12, 2006)

Not to mention if it were true, he would immediately sink to the core of the earth, or rather the mass of the earth would reform around him, and he would never have been able to leave the earth in a spaceship, and his mere presence within several light-hours of the earth would tear the planet apart and cause geological instabilities that would kill everything on earth.


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## Id (Jun 12, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Sure Id here is a scan and proof that DBZ moves *FASTER THAN LIGHT SPEED!!!*
> 
> 
> 
> Now DBZ characters move faster than light speed way faster!


When I play baseball, I can ?See? the ball traveling towards me at a 100 mph. 
Just because I am able to see the ball coming towards me does not mean I can run 100 mph.


King Kai can sense Ki from different locations of the Universe, even if he is in a different plane of existence. Does that mean King Ki moves at the speed of light?

I can also ?See? a car moving at a 150 mph coming my way, does that mean that can run at a 150 mph?

I?m sorry but post in those forums and the logic behind it is flawed.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> When I play baseball, I can “See” the ball traveling towards me at a 100 mph.
> Just because I am able to see the ball coming towards me does not mean I can run 100 mph.



Maybe you need to go read the post again and the scans again because you got it ASS backwards. This analogy is not the same thing. Vegeta was not able to see the ships they were not even in planet Nameks atmosphere so what are you talking about?



> King Kai can sense Ki from different locations of the Universe, even if he is in a different plane of existence. Does that mean King Ki moves at the speed of light?



King Kai is much faster than light he *Teleports instantly* to his locations. Also King Kai could not keep up with Freeza's and Goku's movements when they were in battle.



> I can also “See” a car moving at a 150 mph coming my way, does that mean that can run at a 150 mph?



Wow, this is not the samething this is bad analogy Id. I did not expect this from you.

DBZ moves faster than light get over it!


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## Id (Jun 12, 2006)

Vegita is using his Ki “sense” to determine 5 characters are heading towards planet namek.

I am using my “sense” of vision to determine a vehicle is traveling in the opposite direction.

I don’t see how it is a bad analogy at all.

And try to refrain yourself from flaming me for my opinions/comments.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> I am using my “sense” of vision to determine a vehicle is traveling in the opposite direction.



That's because you can see the Vehicle. The Spaceships were not in sight, they were not even in the atmosphere. Vegeta could not see them with his eyes but he used his Ki sensing abilities. think back to the Mr. Popo and Goku training. Yet a stronger Vegeta could not sense Frieza because he was moving faster than light!



> And try to refrain yourself from flaming me for my opinions/comments.



My bad!


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## Id (Jun 12, 2006)

I am applying the term sense. Vision is my sense to determine the location and identification of a given object.

Vegita has a Ki sense to determine the location and identification of a given object as well. 

Both serve the same purpose, but are used differently. It still holds its purpose.

Just because my sense of Vision is more limited to Vegita?s sense of Ki does not mean that with Vegita?s superior sense (extra sensory perception) allows him to physically move at an insert ?here? speed claim.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> Just because my sense of Vision is more limited to Vegita’s sense of Ki does not mean that with Vegita’s superior sense (extra sensory perception) allows him to physically move at an insert “here” speed claim.



Yes it does! Because there senses become stronger the stronger the user becomes. Freeza was simply to fast for Vegeta to sense, and Vegeta was able to sense the space ships thus Freeza was moving way faster than those ships.


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## Id (Jun 12, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yes it does! Because there senses become stronger the stronger the user becomes. Freeza was simply to fast for Vegeta to sense, and Vegeta was able to sense the space ships thus Freeza was moving way faster than those ships.


I belive their ability to sense Ki (In range/distance) increases as their power level goes up. 

But again, Sensing does not mean physically moving at the objects/targets speed.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> I belive their ability to sense Ki (In range/distance) increases as their power level goes up.



Wrong! Their overall senses impriove as they get stronger, they rely on their senses in battle not just range/distance.



> But again, Sensing does not mean physically moving at the objects/targets speed



Yes it does! Becasue you are physically near/equal or in the opponents range of powerlevel! Therefore you can sense what he senses, move close to the speed he moves.


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## Id (Jun 12, 2006)

Well then it’s a conflict of views, I do not take Ki sensing = speed. I since this is regarding speed in DBZ I will continue this debate in the “How Fast are DBZ Characters” thread.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 12, 2006)

> I do not take Ki sensing = speed. I since this is regarding speed in DBZ I will continue this debate in the “How Fast are DBZ Characters” thread.



You do not understand, when they get stronger they can sense faster opponents. How do you think Goku was able to sense Freeza's movements and Vegeta couldf not. Goku's power was increased from his "Zenkai" Power up.


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## Id (Jun 12, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You do not understand, when they get stronger they can sense faster opponents. How do you think Goku was able to sense Freeza's movements and Vegeta couldf not. Goku's power was increased from his "Zenkai" Power up.


As you power level increases your perception of speed increases. But it seems that speed does not increase in the same proportion to power. 

But Ki sensing, is Ki sensing. To me it seems that as power level increases, the range of Ki sensing increases. But stating that Ki sensing alone does not relate to actual speed.


I already came up with an actual basis of comparison, it can make or break statements regarding light speed of DBZ. If I can find those scans regarding ?Solar Flare?, I can put an end to the whole light speed movements in DBZ on this forum.


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## TheHolyDarkness (Jun 13, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Phenomenol said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 

I play Dance Dance Revolution, and I can recall my learning experience with it.  At first I couldn't "sense" any of the arrows at all.  So I would go home and practice with the controller.  

As I practiced "sensing" the arrows, I got better at sensing on higher and higher speeds and density levels.  

However my lower body could not keep up just because I learned to do it with my fingers.  To improve my reaction time, I would need to strengthen my legs, for without the stamina, my already perfected "sensing" ability was useless.

My point:  Training one's senses does not mean training one's muscles or vice-versa.  Their sensing ability doesn't automatically raise with increased power levels.  It just seems that way because at some point for all of them the ability to intergrate their "ki senses" in battle became a part of their daily training routine and improved with practice; not as a direct result of doing a squat at 100x gravity.  

---
_Case in point: Krillin and Gohan can sense ki better than Frieza or (pre-namek) Vegeta.  Goten's ability to sense his father combating Buu is just as good as Gohan's despite the power gap between them.  Videl could sense Goku going SS3 just as good as the others, while Babidi and Mr. Buu remain clueless._
---


Now, an improved body is likely to at least supplement their ki sense somehow. Afterall, leg work outs has aided me a little in DDR.  But I discovered that it's no substitute for actual practice.  And despite the physical improvements made by DDR, I still suck and get tired out by Basketball (due to a lack of practicing its specific fundamentals). 

So I don't want to hear anymore about how mastery of one skill automatically grants mastery of another.  It doesn't work that way.

For even were the almighty Vegetto himself tried to step up to a 9 or 10 footer on his first try, he'd still end up failing for lack of rythmn, despite his overqualified atheltic capacity for such a game.

I'm sorry to do this, but there are flaws in your logic *Phenomenol*.

And *Id*, would you mind dropping the arguement?  It's was silly to begin with.  

~TheHolyDarkness Out~


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 13, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Goku never blew up a planet.



The dipshit who neg repped me for this needs to come clean right now.


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## Uchiha Brother (Jun 13, 2006)

The point isnt that dbz charters can sense faster opponetns as they get stronger (even though thats probably true) its that Vegeta could sense the ships moving at at least light speed, but could not sense Freize, thus Freiza was moving faster than the ships. Freiza therefore was moving faster than Light speed. Characters speeds in DBZ has increased drastically since that time so its safe to assume that certain characters, Goku, Vegeta, Buu, etc. can move at light speed. 

The way i see it the fight breaks down to this-

Supermans advantages- Invulnerabilty, strength, speed, heat vision

Goku's advantages- power ups, speed, and considerable strength as well. 

Goku would win with either SSJN 4 or Oozaru in combination with IT and Ki blasts. 


Also, as far as the physics of the fight its also good to note that SSJNs do have their own "gravity" As they power up they get "denser" and the ground around them actually cracks, their feet sink etc. In the anime GT (yuck) actaully shows earth particles orbiting Goku when he fights one of the dragons, but GT is non canon bullshit so ...


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## Phenomenol (Jun 13, 2006)

> The point isnt that dbz charters can sense faster opponetns as they get stronger (even though thats probably true) its that Vegeta could sense the ships moving at at least light speed, but could not sense Freize, thus Freiza was moving faster than the ships. Freiza therefore was moving faster than Light speed. Characters speeds in DBZ has increased drastically since that time so its safe to assume that certain characters, Goku, Vegeta, Buu, etc. can move at light speed.



Thankyou. It has already been prooven in the DBZ Speed thread in meta Battledome.



> Also, as far as the physics of the fight its also good to note that SSJNs do have their own "gravity" As they power up they get "denser" and the ground around them actually cracks, their feet sink etc. In the anime GT (yuck) actaully shows earth particles orbiting Goku when he fights one of the dragons, but GT is non canon bullshit so ...



Indeed. They create their own Gravity and the impact of their blows(punches) can shatter air and create voids and huge ass barriers in the ground. I have never seen weak ass superman do this.


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## Tapater (Jun 14, 2006)

Superman is invulnerable. He cannot die except when kryptonite is involved, and goku is too stupid/proud(take your pick) to use it. Superman wins


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## Phenomenol (Jun 14, 2006)

> Superman is invulnerable. He cannot die except when kryptonite is involved, and goku is too stupid/proud(take your pick) to use it. Superman wins



Yeah, that is why Doom Beat Superman's ASS TO DEATH! Yeah right that invulnerability of Superman's has always been overrated.


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## zaith (Jun 14, 2006)

this is ridicilous, goke ssj4 is can easely beat up superman, superman can push a planet, but not destroy.. goke can not push a planet, but can destroy..

i would def bet on goku, theyre are equil in strength, but the blasts just ownz superman


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## Endless Mike (Jun 14, 2006)

Not really, Superman has taken much more powerful attacks like a missile that could destroy half a galaxy and wasn't even hurt (and that was Post - Crisis).


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 14, 2006)

On the road.

^ You mean the Mageddon Warhead.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 14, 2006)

Yes, I do.


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 14, 2006)

Still waiting for mystery neg repper.....


----------



## Bullet (Jun 14, 2006)

> Uchiha Brother said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## escamoh (Jun 14, 2006)

> Even at the end of DBZ characters were still slower than light speed. *Like Goku still using IT to travel at light speed* or ssj4 Goku having a hard time out beating energy blasts that weren't light speed (Omega Shinrons energy blasts I think).



Goku's IT is instant. Not light speed.

btw, which version of Superman are we using? If it's pre-crisis supes than goku loses. But if it's post-crisis I'd have to say SSJ4 goku would be able to take him out.

Superman and Goku are both overrated.


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## Bullet (Jun 14, 2006)

> escaflowne3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Id (Jun 14, 2006)

I agree both Superman and Goku are overated. But I belive Superman is much more broken/cheap then Goku.

At least Goku has the excuse of powering up after every arc (which explains why the end result = Mega Planet Buster)

While Superman is always holding back and uses the excuse “His limits have never bin reached or calculated” and this includes many of senses and abilities.

Any how here are some scans.

Superman dodging Darkseid’s Omega Beam. (I just wanted to throw it in their)
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

And their fight caused the destruction of a planet (it was empty)
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi


A Scientist, A reporter, A fighter = Superman. 


[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

His thinking capacity (or processing ) is higher then he can handle at the moment.

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi


Supes vs. Zod under a red sun (This is weak as Superman Fighting because of the effects of the Red Sun)

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

In another match
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

Here is his Freeze breath, and another speed feat. But Superman speed has already bin covered numerous times. But the limits of his Freeze Breath or the potential has never really bin seen. Well check it out if you are interested.
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

Superman resisting the effects of kryptonite and knocking Kara out. (Im not a fan of the art used in DC comics, but I love the way Superman is drawn in this comic series)
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi


Here he is easily surviving the explosion of a planet while being in the dead center of it.

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi

Here's Superman taking on Darkseid from earth the sun (awesome fight)

[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
[Shinsen-Subs]​_Ergo​_Proxy​_-​_12​_[822687D5].avi
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Supes catching a moon sized ship in travel and tossing it casually...


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 14, 2006)

On the road.

_While Superman is always holding back and uses the excuse “His limits have never bin reached or calculated” and this includes many of senses and abilities._

Yeah. They restated that point in Supergirl #5.

That really ticks me off though; makes him too overpowered as a character. Not to mention begging the question, "If you could have done that eariler/easier, why didn't you?"

Only times I know when Superman didn't held back was when he made that final punch on Doomsday, and during the sun-dip during Our Worlds at War.


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## Jeffrey199 (Jun 24, 2006)

Before reading this thread I was convinced Super Saiyen 1 Goku was stronger than Superman... However after reading the evidence I have come to the conclusion that Supes would crush Goku in any form like a bug. I have seen too much evidence that supports that Superman is faster than Goku, and Physically stronger than Goku. However I am convinced that Goku's energy attacks have superman's eye's beat. I just dont think that that would be enough to clinch the match in Goku's favor.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 24, 2006)

_However after reading the evidence I have come to the conclusion that Supes would crush Goku in any form like a bug. _

I wouldn't go THAT far in declaration. Otherwise, we might see a full blown flame war.

_However I am convinced that Goku's energy attacks have superman's eye's beat._

Well, his heat vision demonstrated enough scope to encompass the entire planet during the Final Night. Furthermore, scientists had stated that Superman's heat vision was hotten than the core of a star, and could not scientifically measure it.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 24, 2006)

Goku wins this won.

Super Saiyajin Goku 1,2,3, and 4 is enough to beat Superman! If anybody really wants to get serious at the end of GT Goku merges with the Dragonballs and becomes Omnipotent!

Also never has Superman in his entire DC comic Career has he fought at lightspeed. Goku has much faster and more powerful combat punches and kicks than Superman. Superman can only travel at lightspeed which is only 99% of lightspeed!

Goku wins, more technique more skills, and has more arsenal loads of attacks for Supes.


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## Id (Jun 24, 2006)

Jeffrey199 said:
			
		

> Before reading this thread I was convinced Super Saiyen 1 Goku was stronger than Superman... However after reading the evidence I have come to the conclusion that Supes would crush Goku in any form like a bug. I have seen too much evidence that supports that Superman is faster than Goku, and Physically stronger than Goku. However I am convinced that Goku's energy attacks have superman's eye's beat. I just dont think that that would be enough to clinch the match in Goku's favor.



Well here are more links to Superman feats (among other Super?s). Its better to have a general idea, and see what Supes is capable of then assuming he can (my own personal thought)

Sasuke to join Akatsuki?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 24, 2006)

Your so called pushing planets is a useless feat! This is not going to help him in battle it is not even a Strength feat. Also its more a feat of *propulsion *then *strength *at its floating around in the vacuum of space. Objects in space have no weight only mass.


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## Id (Jun 24, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Your so called pushing planets is a useless feat! This is not going to help him in battle it is not even a Strength feat. Also its more a feat of *propulsion *then *strength *at its floating around in the vacuum of space. Objects in space have no weight only mass.



I never really studied astronomy, but when your pushing planet, your also pushing against its gravitational force  (didn?t Goku have trouble lifting a building within the earths gravity).

Gravitational Force>>>>>>>>>>Earths Gravity
 So yes I think a planet pusher is an incredible strength feat.

Note - Gravitational force is what keeps the planets in place around the orbit.


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## Toffeeman (Jun 24, 2006)

Super Saiyan 4 Goku would edge it imho.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 24, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> I never really studied astronomy, but when your pushing planet, your also pushing against its gravitational force  (didn?t Goku have trouble lifting a building within the earths gravity).
> 
> Gravitational Force>>>>>>>>>>Earths Gravity
> So yes I think a planet pusher is an incredible strength feat.
> ...



Not at all! 

That is not a good strength feat, besides nothing has WEIGHT in space only mass thus its propulsion and not strength.

Ps Goku LIFTED not Pushed a city, there is a difference. I can PUSH a car but I can't lift one over my head.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 24, 2006)

_If anybody really wants to get serious at the end of GT Goku merges with the Dragonballs and becomes Omnipotent!_

First of all, GT is non-canon. Second, where in the hell did it say that Goku with the Dragonballs is omnipotent?

If the Dragonwas omnipotent, it would have been able to kill the Vegeta and Nappa in the Saiyan saga.

_Your so called pushing planets is a useless feat! This is not going to help him in battle it is not even a Strength feat._

Imagine being punched by someone who has the strength to push planets. In addition, there are several times where Superman punch enemies into literal orbit (Lobo comes to mind).


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## Id (Jun 24, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Not at all!
> 
> That is not a good strength feat, besides nothing has WEIGHT in space only mass thus its propulsion and not strength.
> 
> Ps Goku LIFTED not Pushed a city, there is a difference. I can PUSH a car but I can't lift one over my head.



Superman was seen pushing an entire city, against Earths Gravity. Superman lifted a sea ship with one hand (with lil effort).

It doesn?t matter really how you look at it, Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any Goku strength wise.


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## Toffeeman (Jun 24, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> First of all, GT is non-canon.


Then according to you, Super Saiyan 4 isn't "canon" either... but Goku can use it in this fight. Either way, your argument would fall flat on its face.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 24, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Superman was seen pushing an entire city, against Earths Gravity. Superman lifted a sea ship with one hand (with lil effort).
> 
> It doesn?t matter really how you look at it, Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any Goku strength wise.



Once again Superman is Pushing a city nothing but propulsion, Goku LIFTED a city inhabited with people. Goku can easily lift a sea ship too that is nothing to bragg about.


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## Id (Jun 24, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Once again Superman is Pushing a city nothing but propulsion, Goku LIFTED a city inhabited with people. Goku can easily lift a sea ship too that is nothing to bragg about.


When has Goku ever lifted a city?


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## Perfect Moron (Jun 24, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Not at all!
> 
> That is not a good strength feat, besides nothing has WEIGHT in space only mass thus its propulsion and not strength.
> 
> Ps Goku LIFTED not Pushed a city, there is a difference. I can PUSH a car but I can't lift one over my head.


It was a building. You know, Id's physical explanation sounds a little more convincing than your "Not at all! It's like _I_ say." But it could just be that I remember this 





			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So how are Titans and Apollo's attacks like? *Physical energy*?


post of yours, which kinda hurts your credibility when it comes to Physics.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 24, 2006)

I know Reznor is the resident Physics buff.

Me, I can hold pretty well on my own in writing composition (English, not music).


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> When has Goku ever lifted a city?



*Tomoe 2*


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## Id (Jun 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I know Reznor is the resident Physics buff.
> .


Tell me about it the ? page debate over Atomic Structure, Molecular Structure, and absolute zero?..long debate.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

on the topic of blowing a planet up and pushing one. 

pushing will result in a shift in the earths orbital path around the sun.  Now to overcome this the person must equall the streagth of the suns gravitational pull and excide it.

in order to destroy a planet the user must only rupsure the core to casue a great rift that causes the planet to self destruct.

the act of pushing would be much harder to accomplish then blowing up a planet.  Now remeber the sun is thousands upon thousands times bigger then the earth and has a vastly greater gravitaional force then 9.8 n/kg.

 So in summery pushing a planet is harder to due then blowing one up


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Could you explain the difference between pushing and lifting? There is a huge ass difference.


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## Id (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Could you explain the difference between pushing and lifting? There is a huge ass difference.


Goku never lifted/pushed a planet. Superman has. That?s the difference.


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## Perfect Moron (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Could you explain the difference between pushing and lifting? There is a huge ass difference.



Well, when Goku lifts a planet, you can say Supes pushing one is not relevant.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Could you explain the difference between pushing and lifting? There is a huge ass difference.




take your example of pushing a car, you would not be able to if it did not have weals.  Then it would be just as hard to push as it would be to lift.  In a perfect world lifting would be the same as pushing, but things like weals, suface area, texture, shape get in the way.

But when you are talking about planets their is no lifting, only moving.  And the ablity to move a planet is directly related to the gravitaional force acting on it from a star.  SO if earth had a bigger sun it would be harder to move it from its orbit


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

A level 3 super sayan can destroy the universe with HIS scream so that completely outclasses Superman in everyway!


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> A level 3 super sayan can destroy the universe with HIS scream so that completely outclasses Superman in everyway!



when was that stated/shown in the manga


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## Id (Jun 25, 2006)

Goku (not even the entire city I want to add).


Superman


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Buu started screaming like a baby when he was getting whooped by Vegito and was tearing holes in the space time continum uncontrollably. King Kai stated that if he isn't stopped the universe itself will collapse. Now Gotenks, and Super Buu demonstrated they could do the same thing when he and Piccolo were trapped in Dimensional limbo.


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## Id (Jun 25, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> when was that stated/shown in the manga


Don?t bother, he loosing a debate on strength so he is changing the subject.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Don?t bother, he loosing a debate on strength so he is changing the subject.



I see


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Don?t bother, he loosing a debate on strength so he is changing the subject.



Don't need it when you can destroy the universe with a Scream!!!! which outclasses Superman in everyway.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

im sorry only mystic buu can do that and last time i read dbz mystic buu pwned ssj3 goku, so how can goku do this again, unless you call that little 10 ft rift in the room of spirt and time a universe threating attack


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## Perfect Moron (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> A level 3 super sayan can destroy the universe with HIS scream so that completely outclasses Superman in everyway!


And how long would that take? Isn't he pretty vulnerable while doing that (like, to Supes' strength for example. You know, the one you are trying to change the subject from since you just got pwned debating it).

More importantly, isn't destroying the universe pretty pointless, since it would also kill him?


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## Id (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Don't need it when you can destroy the universe with a Scream!!!! which outclasses Superman in everyway.



Yeah whatever. 
Superman Punches Goku's Face, and Breaks his Jaw.
Why? Goku cant take a punch from a person who is way stronger then him.

OMFG no more scramming Goku.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Perfect Moron said:
			
		

> And how long would that take? Isn't he pretty vulnerable while doing that (like, to Supes' strength for example. You know, the one you are trying to change the subject from since you just got pwned debating it).
> 
> More importantly, isn't destroying the universe pretty pointless, since it would also kill him?



He is not Vulnerable he reales Ki when he screams, it is power shattering the universe, Superman can do nothing but watch! or get burned trying to stop him.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

pretty sure he cant scream like mystic buu, like you say he can.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Don't need it when you can destroy the universe with a Scream!!!! _

You got to love filler.

If you want to debate Superman feats, then

-Silver Age Superman destroys a (EDIT) solar system via sneeze
-Superman Million punching his way to the future

Greatest post-Crisis Superman feat to mind. . . best I can think of right now is the WarWorld bit.

Be home in another day (non-stop driving, other than the usual gas stops). Tomorrow, hopefully).

By the way, which episode was the scream? Going to rewatch that, if this laptop is able to.


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## Perfect Moron (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> He is not Vulnerable he reales Ki when he screams, it is power shattering the universe, Superman can do nothing but watch! or get burned trying to stop him.



You really can't read entire posts, can you?



> More importantly, isn't destroying the universe pretty pointless, since it would also kill him?


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

dont bother only mystic buu can do this scream, wich goku is nowere near the streagth to do that kind of scream.

as for the episode i have no idea


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _-Silver Age Superman destroys a galaxy via sneeze
> _


_

Wasn't that a solar system? And wasn't that with the aid of sneezing powder from Mxy?

Or is this an entirely different Superman? I really need to get my Supes straight..._


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

Well, people say its a solar system, other people solar systems, and most people galaxies. It varies over different web sites (the most I encountered had a galaxy). To find the issue, you're going to have to look back in the 1960s. I've been trying to track that particular issue down (for the feat only) in ComicCons, always coming up short.

Silver-Age Superman aka Pre-Crisis Superman. You may know him now as the revamped, All-Star Superman.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

I saw the scan, and it said uninhabited Solar System. I wanted to make sure it was the same Supes you were talking about. To many of him to remember.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> Greatest post-Crisis Superman feat to mind. . . best I can think of right now is the WarWorld bit.



Ha, LOL!!!

Post Crisis biggest strength feat is pushing Warworld (with its engines in reverse), which is the size of a small moon (ie alot smaller than our one) and he did that sundipped. Also its more a feat of propulsion then strength at its floating around in the vacuum of space. Objects in space have no weight only mass. Not impressive at all.

no Superman's near a Scream that can destroy the universe.



> dont bother only mystic buu can do this scream, wich goku is nowere near the streagth to do that kind of scream.
> 
> as for the episode i have no idea



Super Buu 3 (Mystic Buu), Gotenks did it and Super Buu! Goku in Super Saiyajin 3 fighting kid Buu is stronger than Gotenks and Super Buu, Goku can scream and destroy the universe. Hell tearing holes in the space time continum uncontrollably was done by all three of these characters.

Comic Book Guy youy are watching the Dub aren't you? Dammit.. I said do not look at that.


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## escamoh (Jun 25, 2006)

Which version of Supes are we using here....?

I don't really know who would win though...both characters have powers that are completely ridiculous. 

They'd fight for as long as they can and then die from boredom...


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Super Buu 3 (Mystic Buu), Gotenks did it and Super Buu!_

However, Gotenks and Super Buu have shown nowhere the scale of Mystic Buu. The best they did was a hole a few feet in diameter.

_Goku in Super Saiyajin 3 fighting kid Buu is stronger than Gotenks and Super Buu,_

SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gotenks? Since when? And which Super Buu? Mystic Buu trounces SSJ3 Goku. Otherwise, why the need to fuse with Vegeta for Vegito?

_Goku can scream and destroy the universe. Hell tearing holes in the space time continum uncontrollably was done by all three of these characters._

Only anime Mystic Buu can scream on such a scale. And I'm still doubting it's the ENTIRE universe that was at threat. Dimensions, I can give that. The subbed episodes would clarify.

Plus, Mystic Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are both more powerful than SSJ3 Goku. 

_Comic Book Guy youy are watching the Dub aren't you? Dammit.. I said do not look at that._

What choice do I have? You're looking at a guy who's in a van with a laptop. YouTube is the only resource I have for online episodes.

_Which version of Supes are we using here....?_

Post-Crisis Superman. With or without mental blocks. . . up to the topic creator.

_no Superman's near a Scream that can destroy the universe._

With proper grammar, what are you trying to say?


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Super Buu 3 (Mystic Buu), Gotenks did it and Super Buu! Goku in Super Saiyajin 3 fighting kid Buu is stronger than Gotenks and Super Buu, Goku can scream and destroy the universe. Hell tearing holes in the space time continum uncontrollably was done by all three of these characters.



You have to be kidding me if you thing that the 10 foot hole in the room of spirt and time is anything compared to the feat of mystic buus scream wich was about to destroy the planet


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## Perfect Moron (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Post Crisis biggest strength feat post crisis is pushing Warworld (with its engines in reverse), which is the size of a small moon (ie alot smaller than our one) and he did that sundipped. Also its more a feat of propulsion then strength at its floating around in the vacuum of space. Objects in space have no weight only mass.



Get this trough your thick head. Weight is a measure of strength. There's an enormous attraction stregth between planets. Anyone with basic Physics knowledge can tell yuo that. Of course it's a strength feat. If Superman moved against a planet with only propulsion and not enough strength he would smash through it instead of moving it.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> However, Gotenks and Super Buu have shown nowhere the scale of Mystic Buu. The best they did was a hole a few feet in diameter.



Keep in mind that was not Gotenks Full power, nor was it Super Buu's as they still fought after they escaped the dimension. If they wanted they could have used all their power and possibly destroyed it.



> SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Gotenks? Since when? And which Super Buu? Mystic Buu trounces SSJ3 Goku. Otherwise, why the need to fuse with Vegeta for Vegito?



Remember I am talking about Super Buu the one with Gotenks in the room of spirit and time not Super Buu 3 (Mystic Buu).



> Plus, Mystic Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are both more powerful than SSJ3 Goku


. 

Mystic buu is, but not Gotenks. when Goku is fighting kidd Buu he is much a stronger Buu than the one Gotenks was fighting!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Keep in mind that was not Gotenks Full power, nor was it Super Buu's as they still fought after they escaped the dimension._

Where was that ever stated?

_If they wanted they could have used all their power and possibly destroyed it._

Speculation.

_Remember I am talking about Super Buu the one with Gotenks in the room of spirit and time not Super Buu 3 (Mystic Buu)._

I'm not sure who's more powerful between Super Buu 1 and SSJ3 Goku. Anyone else help here? Agree or disagree with Phenom?

_Mystic buu is but not Gotenks when Goku is fighting kidd Buu he is much stronger Buu than the one Gotenks was fighting!_

. . . Wha? Please correct the grammar. I have no idea what you're trying to say.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

super buu is stronger then ssj3 goku

it goes

vegeto>mystic buu>gotenks buu>mystic gohan>super buu> ssj3 goku


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> super buu is stronger then ssj3 goku
> 
> it goes
> 
> vegeto>mystic buu>gotenks buu>mystic gohan>super buu> ssj3 goku



you think so? I always thought that kid buu was more powerful than Super buu and Goku's powers did increase after all that fighting. I got the impression from that.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

vegeto and mystic buu are obvious

super buu deafeated ssj 3 gotenks

mystic gohan pwned super buu but got pwned by gotenks buu

ssj 3 goku is just a preferace over ssj3 gotenks

ssj3 goku states that he could of killed kid buu if he had his full power so kid buu is one of the weaker buus, wich makes mystic gohan stronger then goku because super buu beats goku, and super buu is stronger then kid buu, so mystic gohan is stronger then goku
hope that clears it up


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> you think so? I always thought that kid buu was more powerful than Super buu and Goku's powers did increase after all that fighting. I got the impression from that.



no kid buu is pure buu. 

mystic buu is pure buu, mystic gohan, goten, trunks, grand supreme kai, piccillo

wich makes all of the supper buus stronger then kid buu.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> ssj3 goku states that he could of killed kid buu if he had his full power so kid buu is one of the weaker buus,



I think you are mixed up a little. Didn't Goku say that to piccolo about Fat Buu! I have the manga right here and he did say that to Piccolo after he fought with Fat Buu. Goku could not defeat kid Buu, the only way for him to do that is with a GenkiDama (Spirit Bomb).


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

he did, but dident he also have vegeto, fat buu, and mr. satan hold off buu when he was trying to get to 100% ssj3 in order to beat buu, but he could not because he wasted to much power allready, so he had to use the spirt bomb


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

Going best on memory, SSJ3 Goku said he could have killed Fat Buu if he wanted too. However, I believe he said he rather leave it to Trunks and Goten's fusion to handle him.

As for the Kid Buu bit, SSJ3 Goku said he would let Vegeta have a chance at Kid Buu, therefore drawing out the fight.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_he did, but dident he also have vegeto, fat buu, and mr. satan hold off buu when he was trying to get to 100% ssj3 in order to beat buu,_

Typo. Vegeta, no Vegito.


_but he could not because he wasted to much power allready, so he had to use the spirt bomb_

Bingo.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

so what are we debateing now


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> As for the Kid Buu bit, SSJ3 Goku said he would let Vegeta have a chance at Kid Buu, therefore drawing out the fight.



He did, which means that he fought kid Buu so long that he was running out of energy and Buu was uneffected at all. Buu still had more than enough energy he was never tired like Goku.


Id said that Superman can destroy a planet with a punch and Goku can't!

I highly disagree.:amazed


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Id said that Superman can destroy a planet with a punch and Goku can't!

I highly disagree._

Firstly, Goku can't destroy a planet with a punch. Never been aluded to (at least, from my memory).

As for Superman, I'll have to hear Id's argument.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

That's because Goku can't.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

dont know if goku can, without kai i dont thing he could, but he probley could via the dragon puch. 
im prety sure superman has destroyed planets by puching them


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> That's because Goku can't.



Wow just wow, What I would expect from Keollyn.:amazed


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

Since when has it been aluded to that Goku can destroy a planet through physical strength/blow alone?

_im prety sure superman has destroyed planets by puching them_

It happened?


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Since when has it been aluded to that Goku can destroy a planet through physical strength/blow alone?
> 
> _im prety sure superman has destroyed planets by puching them_
> 
> It happened?


 

never

 im just assumeing because he tosses them around like chinese curencey. plus ive heard id's argument on the subject


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

I'm curious to hear it myself.

Although, one can assume so, since Superman can literally move planets. Add that he's been holding back over the years. . . it's possible.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

exactly my thoughts


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Superman has torn through a moon just because it was in the way.... I'm not saying that's a planet, but it's a start... especially considering it wasn't intentional. Imagine Supes TRYING.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

I have never seen Superman Shatter a planet! with a punch.



> Since when has it been aluded to that Goku can destroy a planet through physical strength/blow alone?



Because of the simple fact that when DBZ punches connect they create huge barriers and voids in the ground, their shockwaves destroy mountains and cities without punching the very earth itself!


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## escamoh (Jun 25, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> no kid buu is pure buu.
> 
> mystic buu is pure buu, mystic gohan, goten, trunks, grand supreme kai, piccillo
> 
> wich makes all of the supper buus stronger then kid buu.



I'm pretty sure that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu...

After all he is the final villain of the whole show.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Kid Boo actually isn't the strongest. He's just the most menacing.


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## Countach (Jun 25, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu...
> 
> After all he is the final villain of the whole show.




mystic buu is by far the strongest villian in all of dbz, just because kid buu was the last fight dosent make him stronger.

M.B. has more moves and a greater power level.  Kid buu was haveing trouble with ssj3 goku, mystic buu would have swept the floor with ssj3


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Indeed Super Buu 3 (Mystic Buu) had Gotenks, Piccolo and Mystic Gohan was the absolute strongest being ever in DBZ!! until Vegetto showed up.


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## escamoh (Jun 25, 2006)

But wasn't it easier for Goku to fight in SSJ3 when in the Other World? (I watched the dub)

I think it was said in the dub that Kid Buu was the strongest..not sure though.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> But wasn't it easier for Goku to fight in SSJ3 when in the Other World? (I watched the dub)
> 
> I think it was said in the dub that Kid Buu was the strongest..not sure though.



ANYBODY WHO WATCHES THE DUB WILL BE CONFUSED!!! STOP WATCHING THE F***** DUB IT IS WATERED DOWN GARBAGE WITH WRONG INFO!

Sorry the dub just pisses me off.


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## escamoh (Jun 25, 2006)

lol your right...but I used to watch DBZ on toonami when I was a kid, it's the reason I got into anime so I don't think I'll ever hate it even though the dub sucks lol.

On topic, was it ever stated in the manga which Buu was the strongest or is everyone here going by speculation?


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 25, 2006)

Regular Goku wins EASILY. Too bad clarckie. Sooo what if supes can move earth, goku can move the friggin solar system. can suped withstand a kamehameha, NO.
Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Supes.
no offense supes fans.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 25, 2006)

besides anyone can beat supes. HULK can wich means goku definatly can beat supes even when he's sleep walking.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Move a solar system...? Even IF Goku did, it still falls short of galaxy towing Superman....

And Hulk CAN beat Supes, but only through certain variables. Goku CAN'T beat Superman AT ALL. Unless you're using Smallville or animated Superman (not JLA Supes, he still pwns Goku).


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## Dark Evangel (Jun 25, 2006)

(pre-crisis) Superman has closed a blackhole with his bare hands...not even a light cannot survive in a black hole.


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## *uzumaki-naruto* (Jun 25, 2006)

can't superman go back in time aswell?


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## escamoh (Jun 25, 2006)

@ Nameless Pharoh, I'm pretty sure Supes can withstand more than a kamehameha...

Also, I think Comic Book Guy said that Superman puched his way to the future. I think it was Flash that ran back in time...not sure.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Because of the simple fact that when DBZ punches connect they create huge barriers and voids in the ground, their shockwaves destroy mountains and cities without punching the very earth itself!_

So they can destroy the terrain. But the earth? The actual PLANET?

Nothing from Goku's physical strength suggests that kind of capability. Yours is a pretty weak argument; it only suggests that the terrain would be altered due to their physical fight (which, of course, it does.).

_Regular Goku wins EASILY. Too bad clarckie. Sooo what if supes can move earth, goku can move the friggin solar system._

Please look more in-depth to Superman. And please, don't try to overrhype Goku. He's capable of a lot of things, but rearranging the solar system is beyond his physical strength.


_can suped withstand a kamehameha, NO._

You'd be surprise, actually. Look more i-ndepth for his durabilty.

Can Goku withstand heat vision that's even hotter than the core of stars?

_Goku>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Supes.
no offense supes fans._

We don't mind, as long as you look up and research the Superman character more.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_can't superman go back in time aswell?_

Silver-Age Superman was able to. However, since the Crisis retcon, post-Crisis Superman is unable to travel back in time (which is a relief for the story).

_@ Nameless Pharoh, I'm pretty sure Supes can withstand more than a kamehameha..._

Withstood a black hole, withstood an explosion equal to 100 million nukes, and withstood a planet destroying explosion at ground zero.

_Also, I think Comic Book Guy said that Superman puched his way to the future._

Superman Million.


_I think it was Flash that ran back in time...not sure._

Flash sometimes runs past his future self and to the destination. And with the Cosmic Treadmill, he can travel through time.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> So they can destroy the terrain. But the earth? The actual PLANET?Nothing from Goku's physical strength suggests that kind of capability. Yours is a pretty weak argument; it only suggests that the terrain would be altered due to their physical fight (which, of course, it does.).



They destroy the terrain when they punch each other in the DBZ series! They do not even need to punch the earth to proove that they can destroy a planet. Goku with enough Ki in his punch can shatter a planet. 



> Please look more in-depth to Superman. And please, don't try to overrhype Goku. He's capable of a lot of things, but rearranging the solar system is beyond his physical strength.



Funny how you try to talk about Goku being overrated when you are defending the most overhyped hero ever in the Comics universe! 



> Can Goku withstand heat vision that's even hotter than the core of stars?



Bwhahahahaha. Yeah Goku can survive in molten lava, the magical furnace of hell and fought the fire dragon whose body was the temperture of the Sun. He can survive a blast that would destroy a planet but hey heat vision is gonna kill him.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jun 25, 2006)

Uh, he said "overhype", not "overrate". And saying Supes is better than Goku isn't overhyping him, anyway.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 25, 2006)

wait, are you telling me that every version of supes has different powers?.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 25, 2006)

alright, supes ( NOT ANIMATED SUPES ) can survive a kamehameha but goku can also survive heat vision. I admit i underestimated superman so i apologize to all supes fans.
PS: Goku CAN survive all the things that supes can.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 25, 2006)

alright, supes ( NOT ANIMATED SUPES ) can survive a kamehameha but goku can also survive heat vision. I admit i underestimated superman so i apologize to all supes fans.
PS: Goku CAN survive all the things that supes can.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Can he survive being inside of an exploding planet?

Can he survive being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion directly after being exposed to a substance that is deadly to him and severely weakens him?

Can he survive the vacuum of outer space?

Can he survive a hit from a missile that would have destroyed half of an entire galaxy all at once?

Can he survive the Omega Effect, which draws from the power of a nearly - omnipotent cosmic being and can erase its target completely from existence?

EDIT: He's done all this stuff I just listed Post - Crisis, don't even let me bring up his Pre - Crisis version.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 25, 2006)

He Can survive all this cz he can do all these things. But regular goku might not ( maybe ) survive an exploding planet though but SSJ onwards goku definately can.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Do you have any proof?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Can he survive being inside of an exploding planet?
> 
> Can he survive being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion directly after being exposed to a substance that is deadly to him and severely weakens him?
> 
> ...



Ha, LOL!!!

Post Crisis biggest strength feat is pushing Warworld (with its engines in reverse), which is the size of a small moon (ie alot smaller than our one) and he did that sundipped. Also its more a feat of propulsion then strength at its floating around in the vacuum of space. Objects in space have no weight only mass. Not impressive at all.

Goku can survive all of those things, especially a planet exploding attack, Goku was inside the Magical Furnice and he fought the Magical Dragon, and both of these had energies(more power) greater than the sun's!

Besides Goku is a much more skilled martial artist than Superman Goku has more arsenal of skills.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

1. War World is the size of Pluto. That's only slightly smaller than Earth's moon.

2. Everything with mass has weight because all mass generates its own gravitational field. The gravity of an object the size of War World would be very noticeable. Not to mention it takes a ton of energy to move a massive object, no matter whether you're in a gravitational field or not. Ever heard of the kinetic energy forumla? KE = 1/2mv^2. In other words, kinetic energy (in joules) = one - half of the mass of the object multiplied by the object's velocity squared. Not to mention War World was engaging full throttle countermeasure (after stealing power from Imperiex, who was said to have the power of the Big Bang) and was still being pushed back. Goku doesn't have anything anywhere near that in his resume.

3. I suggest you go back to 7th grade science class. In case you didn't know, a modern plasma torch is hotter than the sun! What's important is energy, not heat. The sun has way more energy than a plasma torch, even if it's not as hot. And you have no proof Goku could survive any of those things.

4. False, again. Superman once trained for 1000 years in Valhalla. He has more fighting experience than Goku could ever dream of.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> Goku doesn't have anything anywhere near that in his resume.



Superman and Goku's feats are very different. Goku's feats remain in battle and in Power Level's! not in pushing objects.



> In case you didn't know, a modern plasma torch is hotter than the sun! What's important is energy, not heat



That is what I am talking about, Goku was inside the Magical Furnice and he fought the Magical Dragon, and both of these had energies(more power) greater than the sun's!



> False, again. Superman once trained for 1000 years in Valhalla. He has more fighting experience than Goku could ever dream of.



LOL, Sure does not show it. that is why he is constantly getting his ass beat by characters much slower than him huh!


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## escamoh (Jun 25, 2006)

The magical furnace thing was in Dragonball near the end of the show right?

And Nameless Pharoh, you keep claiming all these things Goku can do yet your not offering any references or proof...if you think Goku can do something and you don't have a manga scan then at least tell us when that event happened so we can look it up ourselves.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku can survive all of those things, especially a planet exploding attack, he survived heat and villains *HOTTER *than the sun itself.



This shit sounds retarded.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> The magical furnace thing was in Dragonball near the end of the show right?



That's right!!


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## Jeffrey199 (Jun 25, 2006)

I saw the dragonball z and even GT show, so the only evidence of Goku's strength I have comes from those. The scans people have shown me of superman, and the feats they have shown him to display leave me to believe that he is far superior to Goku. Before reading this thread the only superman I have seen is in some old comics I don't even have anymore and the television show. That is why I once believed Superman was weaker. However the scans shown prove otherwise and until I can see somthing about Goku I haven't yet seen in the show I am going to believe he is the weaker of the two.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_They destroy the terrain when they punch each other in the DBZ series! They do not even need to punch the earth to proove that they can destroy a planet. Goku with enough Ki in his punch can shatter a planet._

Based on the proof that the terrain can't survive? It's still a weak argument that Goku could destroy a planet with a punch.

_Funny how you try to talk about Goku being overrated when you are defending the most overhyped hero ever in the Comics universe!_

An overhyped hero, who's been holding back in all the years we know him (since COIE in 1985)? If anything, it's ridiculous how everything we seen of him up until now is only a small capability of what he could really do. Only times he went all out is the deathblow on Doomsday, and in Our Worlds at War.

Plus, there are more overrated heroes than Supes.

_Yeah Goku can survive in molten lava, the magical furnace of hell and fought the fire dragon whose body was the temperture of the Sun._

Which? The temperature of it's surface, or it's core?

_Goku can survive all of those things, especially a planet exploding attack, Goku was inside the Magical Furnice and he fought the Magical Dragon, and both of these had energies(more power) greater than the sun's!_

Confirmation of the temperature?

Plus, if Goku was able to withstand a planet destroying attack, why all the worry on Namek? I can understand the no air/atmosphere to breath in.

If Goku's durability was able to withstand a planet destroyer, why not just use his body as a human shield?

_Besides Goku is a much more skilled martial artist than Superman Goku has more arsenal of skills._

Superman and Wonder Woman had far more years of battle and survival experience than Goku would ever live through.

But we all know that Goku loses, since Superman could have at any time slept with Diana during those years. Although, it says something about Superman's faithfulness to Lois.

_LOL, Sure does not show it. that is why he is constantly getting his ass beat by characters much slower than him huh!_

Holding back, due to his mental blocks on his capabilities and abilities. Recently confirms it in Supergirl #5. Which is why I dislike Supes. . . I prefer the black-and-white moral Earth-2 version.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> Based on the proof that the terrain can't survive? It's still a weak argument that Goku could destroy a planet with a punch.



Superman and Goku's feats are very different. Goku's feats remain in battle and in Power Level's! not in pushing objects. Why would Goku punch his own planet anyway? he is not your regular superhero.



> An overhyped hero, who's been holding back in all the years we know him (since COIE in 1985)? If anything, it's ridiculous how everything we seen of him up until now is only a small capability of what he could really do. *Only times he went all out is the deathblow on Doomsday, and in Our Worlds at War.*



You see that in bold, you answered your own post, Superman did let loose.



> Which? The temperature of it's surface, or it's core?



It was said that both the Magical furnice and the Magical Dragon's "powers was Greater than the *entire* sun."



> Plus, if Goku was able to withstand a planet destroying attack, why all the worry on Namek? *I can understand the no air/atmosphere to breath in*.



You answered your own question. Freiza knew that Goku was going to survive the planet blast, but he was banking on him not surviving in space.



> Superman and Wonder Woman had far more years of battle and survival experience than Goku would ever live through.



Rubbish. Goku is an expert in martal arts. Example make bruce lee kryptonian and put him up against superman. Whats going to happen? Sueps is going to get his ass raped plain and simple. Strentgh doesn't mean jack **** in martial arts,its all about technique and superman (even though he has some limited training from mongul) has no technique what so ever. Its just punch punch throw some buildings, or hit you with a car. Any martial artist worth his salt is going to block and reverse the punches and smack him one in the face. Especially Goku with his superior techniques easily wins!



> Holding back, due to his mental blocks on his capabilities and abilities. Recently confirms it in Supergirl #5. Which is why I dislike Supes. . . I prefer the black-and-white moral Earth-2 version.



Superman did not hold back against Doom! and still got his ass beat.Supes doesn't ALWAYS hold back at all, thats crap. He's hold back on the people he could kill , But against heavy hitters like Doomsday, Darkseid, Gog , Shaggy man etc he doesn't hold back ****. Because if he did he would be DEAD


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Superman and Goku's feats are very different. Goku's feats remain in battle and in Power Level's! not in pushing objects.



Then Goku's feats are worthless for establishing a meaningful comparison.



> That is what I am talking about, Goku was inside the Magical Furnice and he fought the Magical Dragon, and both of these had energies(more power) greater than the sun's!



The furnace was on earth, if it had anywhere near as much energy as the sun, it would incinerate the earth. Same for the dragon. Not to mention that no such thing was ever stated.



> LOL, Sure does not show it. that is why he is constantly getting his ass beat by characters much slower than him huh!



Because they have other powers that can compensate for speed.....


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Goku once had trouble lifting 40 tons.

Superman once bench - pressed 43 BILLION tons.

Goku gets hurt when he is punched through mountains.

Superman once got punched ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE EARTH and was fine.

The heaviest thing Goku ever lifted was half a city.

Superman has pushed entire planets.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> The furnace was on earth, if it had anywhere near as much energy as the sun, it would incinerate the earth. Same for the dragon. Not to mention that no such thing was ever stated.



Mike let me tell you something, You just revealed yourself. You can not tell me anything about DB/DBZ becuase you only watched the DAMN DUB. Your info is wrong.

"The Magical Furnace of hell" and fought the fire dragon whose body had a greater temperture then the Sun.



> Because they have other powers that can compensate for speed.....



Bwhahhaaaa!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Superman and Goku's feats are very different. Goku's feats remain in battle and in Power Level's! not in pushing objects. Why would Goku punch his own planet anyway? he is not your regular superhero._

Not a regular superhero? I say he fits the archetype quite well.


_You see that in bold, you answered your own post, Superman did let loose._

Yes, but what _else_ can he do at full capability? That's the question.

_It was said that both the Magical furnice and the Magical Dragon's "powers was Greater than the entire sun."_

Can anyone confirm this as well?

_You answered your own question. Freiza knew that Goku was going to survive the planet blast, but he was banking on him not surviving in space._

Though, you kind of figure. If his durability was able to withstand a planet destoroyer, why not jump in the way of one and take the hit himself?

_Rubbish._

It did happen.

_Goku is an expert in martal arts. Example make bruce lee kryptonian and put him up against superman. Whats going to happen? Sueps is going to get his ass raped plain and simple. Strentgh doesn't mean jack **** in martial arts,its all about technique and superman (even though he has some limited training from mongul) has no technique what so ever. Its just punch punch throw some buildings, or hit you with a car. Any martial artist worth his salt is going to block and reverse the punches and smack him one in the face. Especially Goku with his superior techniques easily wins!_

Well, first of all, we assume that Bruce Lee knows of his newly granted Kryptonian abilities. Otherwise, he would only know the basic physical capabilities.

Second, there's the issue of whether Goku would actually break his arm due to Superman's durability.

Question, what was Vegeta's combat background? I was always curious, since Vegeta strikes me as a brawler, yet he held his own against Goku, a seasoned martial artist.

Kid Buu arguably had not martial arts background whatsoever, and he held his own.

_Superman did not hold back against Doom! and still got his ass beat._

When was that? I never did ask you where did that happen.

Unless you're talking about Doomsday. Well, thanks to retcon, DOomsday had poison in his claws and knocked Superman in a near-death coma.

Prior to retcon, Superman drained his solar energies while battling Doomsday. Although he realized that to stop Doomsday was to kill him, his solar reserves were already low due to prolonging the fight. The deathblow drained the last of his solar reserves, thus leading to his death.

_superman only holds back on the people that he knows he can kill but not the powerful opponents otherwise he would be dead._

A single moment with Doomsday and Imperiex were the only ones he didn't held back against.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> Though, you kind of figure. If his durability was able to withstand a planet destoroyer, why not jump in the way of one and take the hit himself?



Goku can take a planet explosion without batting an eyelid. He is invulnerable to a certain extent just Superman is invulnerable to a certain extent. Andriod 17  breaking Vegeta arm as an example makes much sense after all her power level was higher than his so obviously she could damage him. Doomsday broke Superman arm in hunter/prey for example, his strength is greater than supermans. 



> Unless you're talking about Doomsday. Well, thanks to retcon, DOomsday had poison in his claws and knocked Superman in a near-death coma.
> 
> Prior to retcon, Superman drained his solar energies while battling Doomsday. Although he realized that to stop Doomsday was to kill him, his solar reserves were already low due to prolonging the fight. The deathblow drained the last of his solar reserves, thus leading to his death.



Superman has died in JLA and contrary to the technicalities Eradicator has said for all intents and purposes Superman was indeed dead (after his fight with Doomsday):amazed 



> Second, there's the issue of whether Goku would actually break his arm due to Superman's durability.



Superman's Durabiltiy is the most overated feat! Second, Doomsday broke Superman arm stabbed him in the chest. Goku can do the same.

(Note) Comic Book Guy everyone in DBZ knows Martial arts! their is no raw fighters. You would have to watch Dragonball on up to know this from Mr. Popo to Buu they all fight using Martial Arts only. Toriyama was influenced by Jackie Chan and Most of all Bruce Lee!!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Goku can take a planet explosion without batting an eyelid._

He had?

_Superman has died in JLA and contrary to the technicalities Eradicator has said for all intents and purposes Superman was indeed dead (after his fight with Doomsday)_

Yeah, but thanks to the god-damn retcon, he never died at all (there goes the Death of Superman storyline; all that grief for nothing). Just knocked into a death-like coma. Although, I've heard that _that_ has been retconed away.

When did Supes died in the JLA series?

_Superman's Durabiltiy is the most overated feat! Second, Doomsday broke Superman arm stabbed him in the chest. Goku can do the same._

And Supes could likewise break Goku's bones.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Mike let me tell you something, You just revealed yourself. You can not tell me anything about DB/DBZ becuase you only watched the DAMN DUB. Your info is wrong.
> 
> "The Magical Furnace of hell" and fought the fire dragon whose body had a greater temperture then the Sun.
> 
> ...




1. I've watched some of the dub, some of the sub, and read some of the manga. so STFU.

2. You didn't even attempt to refute my point.

3. And again we get back to the fact that a normal plasma torch has a temperature higher than that of the sun.

4. It's the truth. Darkseid's Omega Effect will track the target forever through any time, space, or dimension they go to, for example, until it hits.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

And the real reason why Superman is stronger than Goku:

Goku has to increase his power to higher forms in order to fight most of his opponents.

Superman is constantly holding back his full power when fighting most of his opponents.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> He had?



It is obvious that Goku can. Hell Freiza survived the explosion with his limbs ripped apart and he was near death!



> When did Supes died in the JLA series?



I think the Rock Ages.



> And Supes could likewise break Goku's bones.



Highly doubt that, because Supes won't touch him!


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> Goku has to increase his power to higher forms in order to fight most of his opponents.



That is because everything in DBZ is based on Powerlevels that is why he has to powerup to fight opponents with higher Ki levels!



> Superman is constantly holding back his full power when fighting most of his opponents



I am getting tired of this, Supes doesn't ALWAYS hold back at all, thats *crap. *He holds back on the people he could kill , But against heavy hitters like Doomsday, Darkseid, Gog , Shaggy man etc he doesn't hold back ****. Because if he did he would be DEAD

when it comes down to it where it all matters is on the battlefield and Goku is a much better fighter than Superman! Goku wins.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Freiza survived being on the surface of an exploding planet. That's only a very small percentage of the explosion, hardly comparable to surviving all the power required to destroy a planet fired directly at you at once.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Freiza survived being on the surface of an exploding planet. That's only a very small percentage of the explosion, hardly comparable to surviving all the power required to destroy a planet fired directly at you at once.



See, you do not understand the concept of planet exploding! Freiza had his limbs ripped off and he was nearly dead and yet his body still remained intact. it does not matter if it was a direct blast because Frieza would have survived that too.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Base form Goku at Boo Saga under 40 tons.... Ha! Smallville's Superman can do more than that... 

That's pretty much the whole debate right there.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Where's your proof, phenomen - lol?

You're basically saying that since character A survived an attack of magnitude X, that means character A can also survive an attack of with a magnitude >>>>>>> X.

Using that logic, since Superman survived an attack that could destroy half a galaxy, that means he could survive an attack that would destroy the entire universe!


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Endless Mike look at what watching the Dub has done to your mind.

You have no concept on how Ki blasts work do you? I know! *why don't I post where supes DIES from a physical beat down in the obsidion age arc. I didn't see the planet being rocked then.:amazed* So mcuh for survivng a universal explosion.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Translation: Blah blah blah, red herring, blah blah blah, pointless evasion, blah blah blah, not answering any of my questions or addressing any of my points.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Do you ever get tired of being wrong, and repeating useless chants.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_It is obvious that Goku can. Hell Freiza survived the explosion with his limbs ripped apart and he was near death!_

Goku wouldn't be in much better shape. Superman did survive the planet destroying explosion, and still flew off unharmed.

_I think the Rock Ages._

I heard of that storyline. I'll look into it.

_Highly doubt that, because Supes won't touch him!_

Most likely, thanks to Superman 'holding back'.

_I am getting tired of this, Supes doesn't ALWAYS hold back at all, thats crap. _

Supergirl #5. The most recent issue that confirms this.

_He holds back on the people he could kill , But against heavy hitters like Doomsday, Darkseid, Gog , Shaggy man etc he doesn't hold back ****. Because if he did he would be DEAD_

Though, it's not directly confirmed whether he was going full-blown all-out. Yes, he would hold less back against the people you listed above, but still holding back nonetheless. Only two confirmed moments I've ever came across was the Doomsday deathblow and the OWAW. And even then, I'm not getting into the specifics with those two.

_when it comes down to it where it all matters is on the battlefield and Goku is a much better fighter than Superman! Goku wins._

Debate's far from over here.

_See, you do not understand the concept of planet exploding! Freiza had his limbs ripped off and he was nearly dead and yet his body still remained intact. it does not matter if it was a direct blast because Frieza would have survived that too._

You sure? He was only on the surface, regardless of the state he was in.

_You have no concept on how Ki blasts work do you? I know! why don't I post where supes DIES from a physical beat down in the obsidion age arc. I didn't see the planet being rocked then._

Obsidian Age. . . you mean where Alan's kid goes crazy?

Endless Mike does have a point. You do tend to switch topics/issues.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> Goku wouldn't be in much better shape.



Goku would have been unharmed because his powerlevel was higher than Frieza's! 




> Supergirl #5. The most recent issue that confirms this.



Narrative Hyperbole.



> Though, it's not directly confirmed whether he was going full-blown all-out. Yes, he would hold less back against the people you listed above, but still holding back nonetheless. Only two confirmed moments I've ever came across was the Doomsday deathblow and the OWAW. And even then, I'm not getting into the specifics with those two.



All of this looks like excuses to me. Superman would have died if he held back.


Goku is just an overall better fighter in combat period. Superman can not contend with Goku's martial arts and Reflex speed is to great for Superman.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

And why should we believe anything you say?

Where is the proof?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

In all of my posts!

I told you that Goku would have survived because DBZ is based on powerlevels and Ki! Goku had the higher powerlevel right? That means he also had more Ki, so it is common sense that he would have survived easily! 

Powerlevels and Ki is proof enough in the DBZ world, anyone knows that even you Endless Mike.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 25, 2006)

_Goku would have been unharmed because his powerlevel was higher than Frieza's! _

Not by much during the Frieza battle. They fought tooth and nail. Goku would be in much better shape than Frieza, no doubt. But still in bad shape, nonetheless.

_Narrative Hyperbole._

. . . Hyperbole?

_All of this looks like excuses to me. Superman would have died if he held back._

Nonetheless, it is what it is.

As for durability. . . well, there's also that 'bio-electric' aura thing going. . . no one really wants to get started on that.

_Goku is just an overall better fighter in combat period. Superman can not contend with Goku's martial arts and Reflex speed is to great for Superman._

You still have to continue the argument. The purpose of a debate is to not only deconstruct your opponent's side, but to also convince the third observing party (since there's little to no one here, then the opposition) why your side should prevail.

_I told you that Goku would have survived because DBZ is based on powerlevels and Ki! Goku had the higher powerlevel right? That means he also had more Ki, so it is common sense that he would have survived easily! _

How easily would be easily?

If it was easily as you describe, why didn't Goku powered up to SSJ3 at full power and take the full brunt of Kid Buu's planet destroyer?

_Powerlevels and Ki is proof enough in the DBZ world, anyone knows that even you Endless Mike._

How so?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

> How so?



How so? If you watch or read DBZ Powerlevels were a deciding difference in strength in DBZ. Toriyama used the powerlevel's and it worked for him.



> Not by much during the Frieza battle. They fought tooth and nail. Goku would be in much better shape than Frieza, no doubt. But still in bad shape, nonetheless.



Nope, Super Saiya-jin Goku had a powerlevel of 150,000,000 and Frieza had a powerlevel of 120,000,000. Frieza still survived even with no limbs and half of a body! Goku would have easily survived it in great condition.



> If it was easily as you describe, why didn't Goku powered up to SSJ3 at full power and take the full brunt of Kid Buu's planet destroyer?



Goku has not mastered Super Saiy-jin 3 at the time. This came from his own mouth.



> You still have to continue the argument. The purpose of a debate is to not only deconstruct your opponent's side, but to also convince the third observing party (since there's little to no one here, then the opposition) why your side should prevail.



Goku is the better fighter overall, *ARGUABLY* he is one of the most skilled martial artist in manga history. As I said Goku is a martial artist. Superman can't predict his moves unless you're of similar skill yourself (Supes is not even close). Even Captain america has shown to be able to use the Hulks strength against him using simple Judo moves. Of course the Hulk wasn't hurt in the slightest. But imagine if you gave Captain america class 100 strength and light speed. He'd kick the Hulks (and everyone elses) ass all over the place. In fact that is what happened in Contest of champions 2. Rogue (taken over by the brood) had Captain americas fighting skills along with the Hulks strength and she was kicking everyone ass all over the place.

Goku has more skills and way more arsenals of techniques than supes! Supes goes down.


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## Keollyn (Jun 25, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku is the better fighter overall, *ARGUABLY* he is one of the most skilled martial artist in manga history.



Well they better keep on arguing...


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Power levels don't increase all stats.

For example, Trunks had a higher PL than Perfect Cell but Cell still won because he was faster.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 25, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Power levels don't increase all stats.
> 
> For example, Trunks had a higher PL than Perfect Cell but Cell still won because he was faster.



Yes powerlevel increases all stats! Cell's power was balanced Trunks was not. If trunks had his power balanced he would have won. Cell beat him relying on his speed and waiting for Trunks to loose Ki.

In Trunks case it was the Ultra Super Saiya-jin mode that had increased Strength and power but killed speed and stamina! 

That is why Goku balanced his power out using a Super Saiy-jin Full power!!!

Powerlevels do matter it is they way you construct your power in the DBZ world.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 25, 2006)

Wait, are you saying power levels matter or not?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PEFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number. Shame you can't see this way. and the EXACT difference between 14 million and 15 million is quite simple...its a million.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Powerlevels worked for Toriyama.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 26, 2006)

Goku CAN do all the things supes can. He is the Japanese version of supes. And plz try tom make more sense, Goku can obviously lift more than 40 tons easily. Watch one of the last episodes of DBZ , Goku carried to bigass dinosaurs each with 2 fingers soo easily and each is obviously larger than 40 tons. And he can move a planet cz as i said he is the Japanese version of supes. And besides this thread is about them fighting, not about what they can do.


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## escamoh (Jun 26, 2006)

When discussing in a battledome we have to compare the feats of each character so saying this fight is "not about what they can do" is wrong.

Also, Nameless Pharoh when did Goku pick up this dinosaur? Was it filler or did it happen in the manga?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

that happened in Dragonball.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Except power levels are meaningless outside of the DBU, because no one in any other fiction uses the exact same scale.

Not to mention that the scale itself is completely inconsistent, and when you actually try to apply it logically, you get things like the farmer who is more powerful than all the world's combined nuclear arsenals.


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## Aman (Jun 26, 2006)

Goku ftw.


			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Genki Dama wouldn't do a thing to him because he's pure of heart.


Superman doesn't know that, which is why he had to tell Gohan for example.


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## shady0008 (Jun 26, 2006)

this issue is brought up when im in class with my goku obsesses pals...and i have to say superman would win...because he is the.man.of.steel, he can fly at the speed of light, heat vision, xray vision, ice breath, super strength i mean he is super

Goku is still strong though so ill let you guys argue sum more
oh gokus weakness is an eraser lol


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Its quite possiblt the PEFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number._

Perhaps. . . although, it doesn't really go into the specifics.

_Shame you can't see this way. and the EXACT difference between 14 million and 15 million is quite simple...its a million._

Quantitatively.

Quanlitatively? That's the question.

_Goku CAN do all the things supes can._

Doesn't have heat vision, x-ray vision, and other things. So, no. Some of the things? Yes.

_He is the Japanese version of supes._

Well, it'd be more accurate to say the Japanese equivalent of Superman. Goku is based loosely on Sun Wukong (the Monkey King).

_And plz try tom make more sense, Goku can obviously lift more than 40 tons easily. Watch one of the last episodes of DBZ , Goku carried to bigass dinosaurs each with 2 fingers soo easily and each is obviously larger than 40 tons._

Can anyone confirm whether this is filler or canon manga?


_And he can move a planet cz as i said he is the Japanese version of supes._

No. His stength capabilities does not suggest he can move a planet.

_And besides this thread is about them fighting, not about what they can do._

Yep.

Imagine being punched by someone who has the strength to move planets.

_oh gokus weakness is an eraser lol_

And so is Superman, and any manga, comic book, art, and literature.


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## shady0008 (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _
> 
> oh gokus weakness is an eraser lol
> 
> And so is Superman, and any manga, comic book, art, and literature._


_


i see ive been outwitted   but when people refer to supes they think "reeves" catch my drift?_


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

How is not knowing that an attack would not work against the pure of heart make him vulnerable to it?

That's like saying that if some guy had never seen or heard of a squirt gun before, and didn't know that it was harmless, then it would kill him.

That makes no sense.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

Well, in terms of movies. . . I'm not sure about that. I didn't like the old Reeves movies that much, and I absolutely hated the 2006 remake (or sequel, debatably.)


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Except power levels are meaningless outside of the DBU, because no one in any other fiction uses the exact same scale.
> 
> Not to mention that the scale itself is completely inconsistent, and when you actually try to apply it logically, you get things like the farmer who is more powerful than all the world's combined nuclear arsenals.



If we go by the numbers alone your argument is then shot to hell. THATS why you don't want to use them. Yoy want to go by feats despoite the fact thats supes has been around alot longer, has faaaarrrr and away many more appearances and is an american hero. Ie the stories that supes appears in allows his feats to be shown more. Example were never going to see Goku lift an ocean liner or even attempt to, WHY? Because Goku just isn't a typical super hero, he doesn't typically go around rescuing people and when he does fight he uses martial arts and and doesn't lift huge objects to lob at people. He doesn't fly into space to take on gaint machine and doomsday weapons. Thats NOT GOKU and thats not the way Dragonball stories work. So you go by thre number of feats to give Supes AUTOMATIC advantage which is fine. But then you want to throw out the power level argument which is a BIG part of Dragonball lore because it gives people who choose Goku an advantage. As for your not relaible garbage, of course they ARE realible its just that after Trunks appears we no loinger have any poffiual numbers. The officila numbers are just that OFFICIAL. So there is no point in arguing about it.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

> Doesn't have heat vision, x-ray vision, and other things. So, no. Some of the things? Yes.



Goku has something much stronger than heat vision and that is Ki!, also Goku's *senses* allows him to see the entire world if he wanted too! That beats x-ray vision anyday.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Translation: I don't want to debate using actual evidence because if we do then it's obvious that Superman wins! So instead I'll just pull stuff out of my ass and try to confuse the issue as much as possible!


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Translation: I don't want to debate using actual evidence because if we do then it's obvious that Superman wins! So instead I'll just pull stuff out of my ass and try to confuse the issue as much as possible!


Dream on dude.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

Well, there ARE times when he made illogical statements, if not one certain one.

The fact that Vegito would be faster than a time stop being one, back early in the Vegito vs. Vegito thread.


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## escamoh (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Well, in terms of movies. . . I'm not sure about that. I didn't like the old Reeves movies that much, and I absolutely hated the 2006 remake (or sequel, debatably.)



You know...I've been waiting for the remake for so long. Is it really that bad?

And how did you see it? Was it at a special screening or something?

Also, how hot are Superman's heat vision rays?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_You know...I've been waiting for the remake for so long. Is it really that bad?

And how did you see it? Was it at a special screening or something?

Also, how hot are Superman's heat vision rays?_

Well, I'm one of those comic book purists. If the slight alterations upsent actual comic canon, then I'm already peeved a bit but I'll tolerate it (the fact that no adaption can be 10% adapated and accurate, due to copyright laws).

If it's a drastic alteration, then I'm pretty much ticked. Example, the fact they caught the killer in Batman Begins really turned me off. In fact, I didn't like Batman Begins that much; even more so when the comics are now adapted to it after New Earth. And as much as I like Burton's Batman as a _movie_, it was plain disappointing as an adaption of Batman.

Seen it at a screening.

I'm just one of the few that disliked the remake. Everyone else, they either like it or manage to stomach it. I'll leave it to you to decide whether to see it.


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## Agent Mars (Jun 26, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> You know...I've been waiting for the remake for so long. Is it really that bad?
> 
> And how did you see it? Was it at a special screening or something?
> 
> Also, how hot are Superman's heat vision rays?



There where Special Screenings in NY, San Francisco, and LA.

I went to the one in San Francisco.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Pre - Crisis Superman's heat vision was at least as powerful as 100 suns.


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## escamoh (Jun 26, 2006)

What about post-crisis Supes?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

Hotter than the core of a star; scientists can't measure how hot it is.

It's scope is able to engulf the Earth, as seen in Final Night.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm not sure, but it's a safe bet to say it's less powerful than that.

However it has done stuff like covered the entire earth and powered the engines that were used to move a huge planet.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

I was just saying since Post - Crisis Superman is generally weaker than Pre - Crisis Superman, then it's likely Pre - Crisis Supes' heat vision is more powerful.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_I was just saying since Post - Crisis Superman is generally weaker than Pre - Crisis Superman, then it's likely Pre - Crisis Supes' heat vision is more powerful._

Pre-Crisis Superman was ridiculous; it was his gimmick for pity's sake. The only character that can be more powerful that Silver-Age Supes would have to be Adam West Batman.

Thank god for Byrne's depowered origin.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Actually, Pre - Crisis Superman wasn't completely invincible, I can name several characters that beat him.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

Well, the net and other posters glorify to Pre-Crisis Superman.

It would certainly be refreshing to find that he was beaten.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

AFAIK, he's been beaten in Pre - Crisis comics by:

- Vartox (some superstrong guy from another planet)
- Zha-Vam (guy powered by a bunch of gods)
- The Composite Superman (normal guy suddenly given all the powers of the LOSH)
- Darkseid (You probably know him)
- The Spectre (See above)
- Doctor Fate (Again, see above)
- Mxyzptlk (Ditto)
- The Time Trapper (Powerful cosmic being)
- Lex Luthor (Pre - Crisis Lex was absolutely unstoppable with prep time)
- Mongul (Intergalactic overlord)
- Validus (Incredibly strong monster created by Darkseid)
- Omega (Creature composed of all the hate in the universe)
- The Sun - Eater (Weird cloud - like creature that ate stars)
- The Anti - Monitor (The Crisis itself still counts as Pre - Crisis, right?)


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_- Vartox (some superstrong guy from another planet)_

I remember him. On one of the covers, he was swinging Superman, wanting to send him into orbit and replace him as the Earth's new hero.

_- Zha-Vam (guy powered by a bunch of gods)_

And Atlas, I believe. Both of them fought over who would fight Superman.

_- The Composite Superman (normal guy suddenly given all the powers of the LOSH)_

Yeah, I have the comic. Haven't read it in ages though. . .

_- Darkseid (You probably know him)_

Ah. . . back in the days, Darkseid was what Kirby had him to be. . .

_- The Spectre (See above)_

I remember Spectre stopping Superman from trying to save Smallville, who were all walking towards their deaths as shown on the cover.

_- Doctor Fate (Again, see above)_

From what I head, Pre-Crisis Dr. Fate was as powerful as Pre-Crisis Superman, with magic to add.

_- Mxyzptlk (Ditto)_

A constant still present today. Powerful as ever, but can still be outwitted.

_- The Time Trapper (Powerful cosmic being)_

Yeah, I think I put him on the tier list.

_- Lex Luthor (Pre - Crisis Lex was absolutely unstoppable with prep time)_

Which? Earth-1 or Earth-2?

_- Mongul (Intergalactic overlord)_

Never read up on Pre-Crisis Mongul before.

_- Validus (Incredibly strong monster created by Darkseid)_

Never heard of him. Elaborate?

_- Omega (Creature composed of all the hate in the universe)_

Never heard of him, but yeah, I can see why Supes loses.


_- The Sun - Eater (Weird cloud - like creature that ate stars)_

There was a pre-crisis Sun Eater?

_- The Anti - Monitor (The Crisis itself still counts as Pre - Crisis, right?)_

Well, by that time, they were starting to power Superman down. But Anti-Monitor's a comics of the Anti-Matter universe.

I remember some of the Pre-Crisis stories. Superman on a planet with children more powerful than him, a caveman Superman, Virus X from Krypton, the 1,000,000 year old Superman, who he feared the most, who Clark Kent feared the most, the Superman generations, the son of Superman & Batman, Superman with Flash's powers. . .

And don't even get me started on the Superdickery covers and stories.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

1. I think it was Earth - 2 Luthor.

2. Validus was originally the child of two members of the LOSH, Lightning lad and Saturn Girl. Darkseid kidnapped him at birth and transformed him into a monster called Validus, that fought the LOSH many times. Validus was said to be 12 times stronger than a Pre - Crisis Kryptonian, and was just as durable, and could also fire 'mental lightning' attacks. AFAIK, the LOSH never beat him directly, they always had to free him from whoever was controlling him, since without external influences, he was actually quite passive.

3. Pre - Crisis Mongul was ridiculously powerful, not only stronger and tougher than Superman, but he also had a bunch of powerful advanced technology (the original version of War World was the size of a gas giant planet and could destroy multiple planets with one attack).

4. The Sun - Eater originally appeared in a PC LOSH story, it was destroyed, but then another one appeared in the present DC earth in another story, being controlled by Mongul. It was also destroyed. Superman was beaten by both of them, though.

5. Omega was created by accident when the Miracle Machine (cosmically powerful device) malfunctioned and in order to beat him they had to destroy the machine.


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## Id (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> AFAIK, he's been beaten in Pre - Crisis comics by:
> 
> - Vartox (some superstrong guy from another planet)
> - Zha-Vam (guy powered by a bunch of gods)
> ...


Yeah those are also Pri-Crisis version of the Current counterpart. All of them ware Simply stupid strong.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Translation: I don't want to debate using actual evidence because if we do then it's obvious that Superman wins! So instead I'll just pull stuff out of my ass and try to confuse the issue as much as possible!



Did you actually read my last post? 

the numbers(Powerlevels) do matter.

Oh and by the way you have yet to proove why Superman would win.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

I never denied that power levels mattered in the DBZ world.

My point is that they don't matter in any other world, so they are useless for debates between DBZ and another fictional universe.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

I could say the same about Superman's feats. Since powerlevel's and Ki do not matter (according to you) what then? you still have yet to proove why Superman will beat Goku?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

No, Superman's feats count, because they are related to things that exist in the real world, and things that exist in many fictional worlds as well, such as moons, stars, planets, black holes, solar systems, galaxies, etc.

Whereas power levels don't exist in the DC universe or IRL.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Those feats do not proove anything to a Martial Artist like Goku. Obviously those feats did not proove anything to characters that Superman got his ass beat by. *Invulnerabuility my ass.*


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## Shepard (Jun 26, 2006)

> No, Superman's feats count, because they are related to things that exist in the real world, and things that exist in many fictional worlds as well, such as moons, stars, planets, black holes, solar systems, galaxies, etc.
> 
> Whereas power levels don't exist in the DC universe or IRL.



At risk of repeating myself (I've said it a lot of times in earlyer pages ^^u)
SSJ2-ish Cell stated that his full powered kame-hame-ha would wipe out the entire solar system, as for phisical resistance Saiya-jins can take on multiple planet destroyer ki balls. (as seen in the 1st broly movie)

I'm not debating who's stronger just giving you a hint on DBZ characters feats in the "real world" (also the DBZ world is composed of moons, stars, planets, black holes and such too ^^u)


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## Id (Jun 26, 2006)

Superman wipes his Kryptonic ass with power levels :shrooms


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Those feats do not proove anything to a Martial Artist like Goku. Obviously those feats did not proove anything to characters that Superman got his ass beat by. *Invulnerabuility my ass.*



All the guys I listed that beat Superman would beat Goku much, much easier. Generally, when Superman loses, it doesn't mean he's weak, it means his opponent is really strong or smart.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Izuna said:
			
		

> At risk of repeating myself (I've said it a lot of times in earlyer pages ^^u)
> SSJ2-ish Cell stated that his full powered kame-hame-ha would wipe out the entire solar system, as for phisical resistance Saiya-jins can take on multiple planet destroyer ki balls. (as seen in the 1st broly movie)
> 
> I'm not debating who's stronger just giving you a hint on DBZ characters feats in the "real world" (also the DBZ world is composed of moons, stars, planets, black holes and such too ^^u)



1. We have no proof that wasn't hyperbole

2. Movies are non - canon.

3. That's the point. The fact that these objects exist in most universes makes feats that affect them a good benchmark for comparison. We can figure out how impressive it is or how much energy it takes to move a moon or destroy a star, however, we can't do the same thing to figure out what it means to have a power level of 85 gazillion, because that has no bearing on the real world, or any world except the DBZ one.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> All the guys I listed that beat Superman would beat Goku much, much easier. Generally, when Superman loses, it doesn't mean he's weak, it means his opponent is really strong or smart.



*Do you talk out of your Ass, or do you just have diarreha of the mouth!*


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## Countach (Jun 26, 2006)

power levels dont mean anything, we dont even know the acutual powerlevels of chariters in dbz after the frezia saga, beacuse they we not used any more


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Those feats do not proove anything to a Martial Artist like Goku._

Vegeta's arguably a pure brawler. And he matches Goku the majority of the time.

Kid Buu has arguably no martial arts background, and yet, he still holds his own against Goku for all his skill in martial arts.

As for the hyperbole.

If you say that Superman's holding back is a hyperbole, then so is Cell's solar system power bit.

If anyone wants to, they can rank the DBZ character according to Marvel classification.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> power levels dont mean anything,




Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PERFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Its quite possiblt the PERFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number._

Although qualitatively, it's not as linear or as consistant.

If A's PL was 1,000,000 more than B, he would be 1,000,000 times more powerful than B. Although, it's not as direct as the numbers imply.


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## Countach (Jun 26, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PERFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number.




yeah but with out a independant ranking sourse, there is no possible way to have fair rankings for evey single seris


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## Shepard (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 1. We have no proof that wasn't hyperbole
> 
> 2. Movies are non - canon.
> 
> 3. That's the point. The fact that these objects exist in most universes makes feats that affect them a good benchmark for comparison. We can figure out how impressive it is or how much energy it takes to move a moon or destroy a star, however, we can't do the same thing to figure out what it means to have a power level of 85 gazillion, because that has no bearing on the real world, or any world except the DBZ one.



1-Take it as you want, but the guy was prepared to blow up the galaxy and he had no reason to lie.

2-Ok you're right, even though I think Toriyama was *somehow* involved in every movie until that one "The Galaxy at the Brink!! The Super Incredible Guy" absolutely NOT sure though

3-That's why I'm telling you that. In the whole series (and I'm mean Z I'm not counting GT) this is the closest statemet on what level a Saiyajin's strenght can reach, since DBZ's world is more or less like the "real" world. With that statement WE don't have to be stuck with the 85 gazillion level of power but more or less: SSJ2=enough power to blow the solar system, and I'm taking it up because this is cannon and was stated in the manga


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## Id (Jun 26, 2006)

Izuna said:
			
		

> 1-Take it as you want, but the guy was prepared to blow up the galaxy and he had no reason to lie.
> 
> 2-Ok you're right, even though I think Toriyama was *somehow* involved in every movie until that one "The Galaxy at the Brink!! The Super Incredible Guy" absolutely NOT sure though
> 
> 3-That's why I'm telling you that. In the whole series (and I'm mean Z I'm not counting GT) this is the closest statemet on what level a Saiyajin's strenght can reach, since DBZ's world is more or less like the "real" world, not 85 gazillion level of power but more or less: SSJ2=enough power to blow the solar system


Superman survived a Galaxy ending attack. Can Goku (SS 1-4) do the same?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_1-Take it as you want, but the guy was prepared to blow up the galaxy and he had no reason to lie._

Correction. Solar system.

Though, if that was true -- and Gohan's opposite Kamehame Ha would have to equal that in magnitude -- the Earth would have been ripped apart from the resulting forces _easily_, rather than hold as it did.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Thats garbage, the numbers DO mean something. Its quite possiblt the PERFECT and most SIMPLE way to gauge power since it assigned an actual number.



Except it is completely useless when comparing with other characters from other universes that do not use the same scale or any scale at all for ranking their power.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

> Though, if that was true -- and Gohan's opposite Kamehame Ha would have to equal that in magnitude -- the Earth would have been ripped apart from the resulting forces easily, rather than hold as it did.



physics or logic does not apply to manga or comics anyone with common sense knows this.



> Except it is completely useless when comparing with other characters from other universes that do not use the same scale or any scale at all for ranking their power.



true.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> *Do you talk out of your Ass, or do you just have diarreha of the mouth!*



Do you have any actual arguments?

Validus could beat Goku with his pinky finger.


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## Shepard (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _1-Take it as you want, but the guy was prepared to blow up the galaxy and he had no reason to lie._
> 
> Correction. Solar system.
> 
> Though, if that was true -- and Gohan's opposite Kamehame Ha would have to equal that in magnitude -- the Earth would have been ripped apart from the resulting forces _easily_, rather than hold as it did.


Actually, Gohan was afraid of that and that's precisely why he was losing the match, however Goku encouraged him to focus his Ki, and said that if the earth would get damaged, they would fix it with the dragon balls, then Gohan defeated Cell.



			
				Id said:
			
		

> Superman survived a Galaxy ending attack. Can Goku (SS 1-4) do the same?


I don't know, I think Goku can withstand multiple Planet destroyer attacks at SSJ1 level, however he should be even more durable in SSJ 2-3 but I don't think he can withstand a galaxy ending attack.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_physics or logic does not apply to manga or comics anyone with common sense knows this._

Sure. . .

Without world physics of gravity, everyone would simply float into space and die.

Without logic, a power level of 100 would _not_ be higher than a power level of 200.

Please. Every anime world has logic built into it, as well as some basic, necessary physics and reality laws. Anyone with common sense knows this innately.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Izuna said:
			
		

> 1-Take it as you want, but the guy was prepared to blow up the galaxy and he had no reason to lie.
> 
> 2-Ok you're right, even though I think Toriyama was *somehow* involved in every movie until that one "The Galaxy at the Brink!! The Super Incredible Guy" absolutely NOT sure though
> 
> 3-That's why I'm telling you that. In the whole series (and I'm mean Z I'm not counting GT) this is the closest statemet on what level a Saiyajin's strenght can reach, since DBZ's world is more or less like the "real" world. With that statement WE don't have to be stuck with the 85 gazillion level of power but more or less: SSJ2=enough power to blow the solar system, and I'm taking it up because this is cannon and was stated in the manga



Yeah, it was stated by a villian who was very egocentric and full of himself, while bragging to his enemies, and we never saw anything to back up his claim.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Actually, Gohan was afraid of that and that's precisely why he was losing the match, however Goku encouraged him to focus his Ki, and said that if the earth would get damaged, they would fix it with the dragon balls, then Gohan defeated Cell._

Yet, if Cell's Kamehame Ha did possess enough power to wipe out the solar system -- and Gohan's as well, to match and overtake it later -- then the Earth would have been ripped apart from the sheer resulting forces, rather than stay there and hold out as it did.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> physics or logic does not apply to manga or comics anyone with common sense knows this.



If they didn't apply at all, then it would be impossible to analyze and there would be no way to tell who would win at all. Ever.

The mere fact that you're arguing in a match between comic and anime characters proves that you don't actually believe that, or that you just don't know what the hell you're talking about.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Do you have any actual arguments?



Yes for the last 4 pages I was smashing all of your arguments down to the ground. You have yet to respond with a correct reason why Superman will beat Goku?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Ah, so you admit Superman wins.

Good.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

No, I said you have yet to proove why!


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## Shepard (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yeah, it was stated by a villian who was very egocentric and full of himself, while bragging to his enemies, and we never saw anything to back up his claim.


Actually, I see more logic for Toriyama wanting to express the menace Cell represents to the galaxy that your theory of the egocentric villiain, also Gohan was afraid to cause the same level of destruction if he didn't focus his Ki, so I'm pretty much convinced Cell could destroy the solar system at that point.

Also here in my house I have a book in wich Superman is KILLED by a monster named Doomsday wich makes me doubt of him a lot, if that doomsday thing could kill him, I don't see why SSJ 2-3 Goku couldn't (I'm not pretty much in superman tough, so just wanted to point it out)



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Yet, if Cell's Kamehame Ha did possess enough power to wipe out the solar system -- and Gohan's as well, to match and overtake it later -- then the Earth would have been ripped apart from the sheer resulting forces, rather than stay there and hold out as it did.



Actually, DBZ charactes tends to " focus" their Ki so the result energy doesn't blow up the planet, they also throw the Ki balls out of the planet (the tipical scene of the ki ball going out from the earth into space, althoug I'm still wondering where do these ki balls go, poor planet they collide with)


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## Countach (Jun 26, 2006)

doomsday is basicly an genticly powered form of superman wich is very evil, so it's like superman killing superman


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

> Also here in my house I have a book in wich Superman is KILLED by a monster named Doomsday wich makes me doubt of him a lot, if that doomsday thing could kill him, I don't see why SSJ 2-3 Goku couldn't (I'm not pretty much in superman tough, so just wanted to point it out)



Killed Superman? No Doomsday Murdered Superman he broke his arm and stabbed him in the chest. Invulnerable? Please that is the most overrated garbage I have ever read about Supes!


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jun 26, 2006)

Doomsday killing Superman doesn't mean that SSJ2-3 Goku could. How exactly did you arrive to that sort of conclusion?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Doomsday is incredibly powerful, and every time he is defeated he comes back except he adapts a new defense against whatever killed him. Anyway, Superman grew much stronger since Doomsday beat him, in fact, in OWAW, part of Doomsday's arm shattered when trying to punch Superman (and Doomsday had also gotten much stronger by then).


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

And Goku gets stronger after every fight as well and he is a F***ing Martial artist who has more skill and a whole lot more variations of Techniques!

So what the hell are you talking about.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Also here in my house I have a book in wich Superman is KILLED by a monster named Doomsday wich makes me doubt of him a lot,_

Ah, the Death of Superman. The infamous story that even made national news during the 1990s.

Classic Doomsday's no slouch himself. He's probably one of the few character's that's Superman's own physical superior. I always debated on making a thread of classic Doomsday vs. DBZ, after certain evolutions from specific deaths (died once by Genki Dama and a ki attack).

_if that doomsday thing could kill him, I don't see why SSJ 2-3 Goku couldn't (I'm not pretty much in superman tough, so just wanted to point it out)_

Superman drained his solar reserves with the prolonged fight with Doomsday. By the time he later noticed that Doomsday had to be killed, he was already exhausted and had too little solar reserves to immediately turn the tables of the fight (Doomsday's stamina exceeded Superman's own).

Think Kid Buu vs. SSJ3 Goku near the end of DBZ.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

> Doomsday killing Superman doesn't mean that SSJ2-3 Goku could. How exactly did you arrive to that sort of conclusion?



Goku is a Martial Artist, He is a way better fighter than Supes.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_And Goku gets stronger after every fight as well and he is a F***ing Martial artist who has more skill and a whole lot more variations of Techniques!_

Vegeta's arguably a pure brawler, and he held his own against Goku.

Kid Buu has no martial arts background whatsoever. And he definitely held his own against Goku.


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## Shepard (Jun 26, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> Doomsday killing Superman doesn't mean that SSJ2-3 Goku could. How exactly did you arrive to that sort of conclusion?


I arrived to that conclusion this way, the book said that Doomsday's hands were made of granite, yet that granite with enough strenght pulled by doomsday damaged Superman's body, now We have Goku wich body can withstand Planet destroyer Ki attacks and that has a formidable strenght by his own so I don't see any impediment for him to be able to damage Superman's body thus he could beat him, also I'm not counting Ki blasts or heat vision here  

Also, like I said before I'm not very fond on Superman but I find it incredibly contradictory that this monster could beat Superman with his bare fists yet Superman survived an galaxy endind attack


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## Countach (Jun 26, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Goku is a Martial Artist, He is a way better fighter than Supes.



buu was not a martial artist and he did not have any problems smacking goku around


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _And Goku gets stronger after every fight as well and he is a F***ing Martial artist who has more skill and a whole lot more variations of Techniques!_
> 
> Vegeta's arguably a pure brawler, and he held his own against Goku.
> 
> Kid Buu has no martial arts background whatsoever. And he definitely held his own against Goku.



Comic Book Guy you are showing your ignorance!

Where in the hell did you come up with this idea? Vegeta has always been a pure martial artist! This was eveident ever since his first fight against Goku and Vegeta at the time was a better Martail Artist than Goku! Vegeta trianing in Gravity shows his martial arts skills , technique combos, hell when he trains his son trunks he shows him the art of Kicking. What?

Kid Buu is a martial artist as well, he learned it from watching other's like Goku and the Z senshi! While he was fighting he was *learning how to fight*!(stated by Vegeta) Kid Buu was a martial artist because he could read moves in an instant, and copied Goku's Martial arts noted by Goku. 

Goku is simply a better fighter than Supes.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Doomsday is a very tough opponent, he easily survived a blast that was supposedly as strong as 'a million nuclear bombs' and wasn't even hurt.

He also survived an attack from Imperiex, who had the power of the Big Bang, although he was burnt away and turned into a skeleton (but still survived and came back later).


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## DarkTechnomancer (Jun 26, 2006)

Superman is overpowered, but most DBZ characters could beat him. After all, though Superman has too many powers to list, Goku alone can pretty much destroy everything in existence if he wanted too, face it DBZ characters are so ridiculously overpowered that not even Superman can beat them.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_I arrived to that conclusion this way, the book said that Doomsday's hands were made of granite, yet that granite with enough strenght pulled by doomsday damaged Superman's body, now We have Goku wich body can withstand Planet destroyer Ki attacks and that has a formidable strenght by his own so I don't see any impediment for him to be able to damage Superman's body thus he could beat him, also I'm not counting Ki blasts or heat vision here _

So. . . when exactly in DBZ did Goku withstand a planet destroyer?

_Comic Book Guy you are showing your ignorance!

Where in the hell did you come up with this idea? Vegeta has always been a pure martial artist! This was eveident ever since his first fight against Goku and Vegeta at the time was a better Martail Artist than Goku! Vegeta trianing in Gravity shows his martial arts skills , technique combos, hell when he trains his son trunks he shows him the art of Kicking. What?_

Art of kicking? I'll revise that.

Although, nothing about Vegeta's combat background is ever shown. We don't know what exactly is the martial art/arts or form of combat did he underwent.

_Majin Buu is a martial artist as well, he learned it from watching other's like Goku and the Z senshi! All of Majin Buu's Forms were martial artist because they could read moves in an instant noted by Gotenks himself and Piccolo!_

Read ki techniques, or actual physical technique?

Plus, when Kaibito went through his flashback, Kid Buu was already a ruthless combatant. Nothing really suggests that he actually copied the martial arts of the Z fighters, save for their ki techniques. There has't been "he punches like I(he/she) does" or "fights like he/she does." Note, this is Kid Buu, without any fighters absorbed into him.


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## Shepard (Jun 26, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> buu was not a martial artist and he did not have any problems smacking goku around


Actually, Buu was able to copy any attack or fighting technique(sp) or style just by seeign it, the first fatty buu wasn't able to do shit in the martial arts department, but the Buus onwards confronted pretty much the whole DBZ cast, copying theyr styles and creating their own



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Ah, the Death of Superman. The infamous story that even made national news during the 1990s.
> 
> Classic Doomsday's no slouch himself. He's probably one of the few character's that's Superman's own physical superior. I always debated on making a thread of classic Doomsday vs. DBZ, after certain evolutions from specific deaths (died once by Genki Dama and a ki attack).
> 
> Superman drained his solar reserves with the prolonged fight with Doomsday. By the time he later noticed that Doomsday had to be killed, he was already exhausted and had too little solar reserves to immediately turn the tables of the fight (Doomsday's stamina exceeded Superman's own).



I see, however now I'm clueless I didn't know Superman functioned by Solar energy  
however I still thing Gokuh could hold his ground against Superman



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> So. . . when exactly in DBZ did Goku withstand a planet destroyer?


 Well, I'll give you that: this is somehow contradictory, he does it in lots of semi-cannon movies and full-powered Gohan wich is more or less at SSJ3 Gokuh's level tooks some really powerful ki balls from bu and stands still, however Gokuh died when Cell autodestroyed himself at kai-oh's planet so it depends on Toriyama, really however i'm inclined to think he CAN withstand it


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Doomsday is a very tough opponent, he easily survived a blast that was supposedly as strong as 'a million nuclear bombs' and wasn't even hurt._

That magnitude of the blast was confirmed by Waverider.

_He also survived an attack from Imperiex, who had the power of the Big Bang, although he was burnt away and turned into a skeleton (but still survived and came back later)._

I remember that. After that, Luthor handed its skeleton to Darkseid, as payment for the war.

_Superman is overpowered, but most DBZ characters could beat him. After all, though Superman has too many powers to list, Goku alone can pretty much destroy everything in existence if he wanted too, face it DBZ characters are so ridiculously overpowered that not even Superman can beat them._

Everything in existence is a horribly, horribly gross overstatement. And I presume you haven't read into Superman?

Ideon destroyed everything in existence, so far in my readings and viewings. . .


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

And yet you haven't given any proof or evidence.....

Face it, when it comes to speed, Superman is faster, he can go FTL and we determined in the DBZ speed thread that DBZ chars. can't go FTL.

When it comes to strength, the heaviest thing Goku has ever lifted or moved is half a city, where Superman moves planets and moons.

When it comes to durability, Goku is hurt by rocks and by being punched through mountains, where Superman can survive being punched through the earth and an attack that could destroy half a galaxy easily.

When it comes to energy projection, Goku has the advantage in sheer power, but Superman can focus his heat vision to much more intense levels on smaller areas so he could just lobotomize Goku with heat vision.

Not to mention Superman can survive in space and Goku can't. If Superman didn't have to worry about not hurting people, he could end the match right away by flying off into space, getting a powerup from the sun, then burning off all the earth's atmosphere with his heat vision so Goku would suffocate to death.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

> Although, nothing about Vegeta's combat background is ever shown. We don't know what exactly is the martial art/arts or form of combat did he underwent.



Comic Book Guy, mostly everyone who fights uses some form of Martial Arts in the DBZ world! you can not win without it.



> Read ki techniques, or actual physical technique?



Both! Kid Buu was so incredible that Vegeta said he was a genious because he was learning how to fight while fighting Goku!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Actually, Buu was able to copy any attack or fighting technique(sp) or style just by seeit, the first fatty buu wasn't able to do shit in the martial arts department, but the Buus onwards confronted pretty much the whole DBZ cast, copying theyr styles and creating their own things_

Well, Super Buu begins to absorb the Z fighters, so I'm not surprised if it can assimilate it's martial arts.

Kid Buu, however, is another debatable issue.

_I see, however now I'm clueless I didn't know Superman functioned by Solar energy  _

Superman's is literally sustained by solar energy; it serves as his sustenance. Him eating and drinking is purely psychological due to his uprising. When all of his solar energy in his reserves are completely depleted, he dies. Note, solar energy can be used to enhance his physical capabilities or bio-electric aura or his vision powers.

_however I still thing Gokuh could hold his ground against Superman_

Defeat or win, both of them can hold grounds against each other.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

Everyone had some form of martial arts, agreed. However, you have to agree that everyone has them are varying degrees in terms of skill.

As for Kid Buu having some form of martial arts, how? This is during the day of his terror reigns.


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## DarkTechnomancer (Jun 26, 2006)

Meh, just figured I'd add my two cents, this entire thing is pretty stupid anyway. I mean really it's like saying "God vs. The One Above All", I don't really think there is much comparison to be made. But if Superman _did_ beat Goku, he'd just come back and beat him while he's tired.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jun 26, 2006)

> I arrived to that conclusion this way, the book said that Doomsday's hands were made of granite, yet that granite with enough strenght pulled by doomsday damaged Superman's body, now We have Goku wich body can withstand Planet destroyer Ki attacks and that has a formidable strenght by his own so I don't see any impediment for him to be able to damage Superman's body thus he could beat him, also I'm not counting Ki blasts or heat vision here


Like previously stated by others, Doomsday was at *least* Supes' equal in everything. Him punching Superman is going to have more of an effect than Goku doing so because Goku is significantly weaker than Doomsday at that point and more ridiculously so now.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And yet you haven't given any proof or evidence.....
> 
> Face it, when it comes to speed, Superman is faster, he can go FTL and we determined in the DBZ speed thread that DBZ chars. can't go FTL.
> 
> ...



Goku can hold his breath along time and beat Supes ass. Also note that Everyone has high showing and low showings. For every Supes "speed feat" I can post him getting walloped by some slow ass like the Shaggy man or I can post the time when his body was taken over and he fired his heat vision at 70% max (it was stated) yet all it did was destroy part of a building.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_I can post the scan from JLA where supes says he's NOT faster than light when asked to outrun a zeta beam. I still maintain that supes top speed is 99% light speed_

99% of lightspeed, confirmed by Kid Flash afer a race.

Outside of Earth's atmosphere, Superman can attain FTL speeds.

_Goku blows up planets!_

Does nothing to argue about Goku's physical strength.

_The damn planet should get knocked off its axis whereever the Hulk throws down._

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

_Captain marvel laid supes out with two blow and superman moves all of a couple of feet._

Magic.

_or what about when Hawkman laid supes out cold with the supposed weigth of the earth. Yet supes didn't go flying through the floor._

That'd be?

_There is a reason why comic writers don't have the earth blow up whenever there is a super fight. BECAUSE THEN EVERYONE WOULD DIE. It called common sense_

Superman vs. Darkseid. The planet they were on was destroyed due to their fight.

Big Kakashi and Little Kakashi

_LOL! Goku has fixed the Magical Furnice of hell(Temperature hooter than the sun) and fought the Magical Dragon of in GT! his powers were greater than the suns!_

GT is not canon. Anyone else confirm the hell furnace?

_Goku can hold his breath along time and beat Supes ass. Also note that Everyone has high showing and low showings. For every "speed feat" I can post him getting walloped by someone slow as ass like the Shaggy man or I can post the time when he was body was taken over and he fired his heat vision at 70% max (it was stated) yet all it did was destroy part of a building._

You got to love the different writers, don't you. . . from John Bryne to Chuck Austen to Joe Kelly. . .


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy 99% of lightspeed said:
			
		

> Sueps 99% light speed. I don't care what any supes fan says he's not faster than the flash[/B]
> 
> Outside of Earth's atmosphere, Superman can attain FTL speeds.
> 
> ...


_

No I don't!_


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

*Sueps 99% light speed. I don't care what any supes fan says he's not faster than the flash*

Yep. Flash is faster than Superman. Speed Force helps a lot.

_I don't care what any supes fan says he's not faster than the flash_

Yep. Speed Force helps a lot.

_Yet the impact of Goku's punches can create huge barriers in the ground and the shockwaves destroys planets! Evident by the Freeza and Goku fight and Super Saiya-jin 3 vs. Fat Buu!_

Huge barriers in the ground, check. Shockwaves destroying terrain, check. Planet gone? Nope. Goku can't destroy the planet with a punch or physical strength.

_Read it again carefully! The damn planet should get knocked off its axis whereever the Hulk throws down. It called common sense Goku will never punch his planet when the impact of their blows in fights can destroy planets. Otherwise Akira Toriyama will not allow planet earth to be destroyed in anyway by physical fights_

Planet being knocked off it's axis whenever Hulk makes his infamous leaps? Anyone confirm the physics of this here? Reznor?

The impact of their blows can't destroy the planet. If that was true, the resulting shockwaves and reverberations of a couple of punches would destroy the entire planet. Seeing how the planet is still there, they can't destroy planets with their physical blows.

_So what if it was a weakness, That Should not have knocked him out, he should have been damaged but not down for the count._

Superman's always been vulnerable to magic. However, to what extent and property, is still debated, although there is a general consensus.
_That scan does not show anything! I do not see any planet destroyed!_

They're fighting on the remains of a planet.

_Does not matter this is an ANIME/MANGA BATTLEDOME! deal with it._

One has to be sure in order to debate with and against, debating being fundamental in the battledrome.

_No I don't!_

You should. Otherwise, under some specific people, Superman would be far more overpowered than what he was during OWAW.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy Yep. Flash is faster than Superman. Speed Force helps a lot.

Yep. Speed Force helps a lot.

Huge barriers in the ground said:
			
		

> check. Planet gone? Nope. Goku can't destroy the planet with a punch or physical strength.[/B]
> 
> *Really? I guess that is why Super Saiya-jin 3 and fat Buu's fight was destroying earth! I guess that is why Goku and Freeza was destroying Namek with it's strength alone.*
> 
> ...



bwahhaaaaaaa


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## Countach (Jun 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Planet being knocked off it's axis whenever Hulk makes his infamous leaps? Anyone confirm the physics of this here? Reznor?



the fact is that the gravitational potentail energy that the hulk gains from a leap is enogh to push a planet off it orbit, if the hulk is leaping for about 3 billion years, and by that time the sun would have expanded enoghe to destroy all the planets in the solor system this side of the astroid belt.

i mean every day in the life of earth we are moveing farther and farther away, but it will not mean anything because earth will be destroyed before it can move any distance at all


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## Hyuga Hinata-chan (Jun 26, 2006)

Goku's so overpowered, he can beat almost every single fictional character. Including Superman.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Really? I guess that is why Super Saiya-jin 3 and fat Buu's fight was destroying earth! I guess that is why Goku and Freeza was destroying Namek with it's strength alone._

Planets are still there.

Frieza ki blasted the planet during the fight. And the planet still held together before its expirations thanks to Frieza.

_No. I am talking about when he fights. He doen't do that in battle!_

Well, there's no one on Earth in my memory that could withstand Hulk's physical blows such that the resulting shockwaves would destroy the planet.

_You made me repeat myself. 
Quote:
so your point is what? So the psychics don't quite work .The damn planet should get knocked off its axis whereever the Hulk throws down. Captain marvel laid supes out with two blow and superman moves all of a couple of feet. or what about when Hawkman laid supes out cold with the supposed weigth of the earth. Yet supes didn't go flying through the floor. There is a reason why comic writers don't have the earth blow up whenever there is a super fight. BECAUSE THEN EVERYONE WOULD DIE. It called common sense  _

Yeah, the planets serve as the place and setting for story.

However, if the fight really was as super as it should be, regardless, the planet should have been destroyed.

_Still he got knocked out, which is pathetic._

There's nothing magic from Goku that would bypass his bio-electric aura.

_Can not tell with that scan! how? and by what? they could have been already fighting on asteroids!_

Well, the comic I have is at home, if not on the main comp. Still on the road, however, if all goes well, I'll be there in the morning. But finding it once I have a good sleep and all the cramps worked out (advice; never sleep or sit awkwardly; you'll regret it).

Id has the comic as well, I think. It's the "Apocalypse Now" special.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Goku's so overpowered, he can beat almost every single fictional character. Including Superman. _

Please. I've seen and read more broken and cheap characters that DBZ _and_ Superman.


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## Hyuga Hinata-chan (Jun 26, 2006)

There are? Never heard of them.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

Example A.

Mad Jim Jaspers. Due to a tumor in his brain, he can warp reality on a near limitless scale.

Franklin Richards. The son of Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman, his powers puts him on par with the Celestials and Galactus. He created his own universe and other worlds for pity's sake, and he was a child, with still growing powers.

Hyperstorm. The son of an alternate reality Franklin Richards and Rachel Grey, his powers is having control over the 4 fundamental forces of the universe. His powers alone was enough to satisfy Galactus' hunger.

Lucifer Morningstar, the finest creation of the Presence. In addition to his nigh-omnipotence, he's perhaps the most cunning bastard character of all comic books, one of the most cunning in all fiction.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder. When he was bored, he played with _galaxies_ with his hands.


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## Hyuga Hinata-chan (Jun 26, 2006)

I never knew.


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## Countach (Jun 26, 2006)

those people are so cheap not to meantion the dc/marvial gods id posted

ps. were did u go on vacation, it seems like u been in a car for like 10 days


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Well the guy in my sig is one.

Not only can he easily destroy fleets of super powerful starships, planets, moons, and entire solar systems, but he can travel faster than light, survive comfortably in space, teleport anything he wants over insterstellar distances without even having to touch it, convert his own body to pure light and back, restore objects and even living beings that he's destroyed and create entirely new matter, and to top it all off he has 5 Light Hawk Wings, which multiply all of the attacks and defenses of any opponent by 0 and will kill anything short of a multiversal reality - warping being in one hit.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 26, 2006)

Now to clarify about speed: Superman can fly much faster than light, but he doesn't ever go faster than 99% of lightspeed in the atmosphere, because if he did he would kill everyone.

As for the furnace and the dragon, all it said was that they were hotter than the sun, (and I'm not even sure it said that about the furnace), not that they had more energy than the sun. Heat is not nearly as important in terms of damage as energy is.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_those people are so cheap not to meantion the dc/marvial gods id posted_

Well, they have a reason to be cheap. They're gods, cosmics, and super cosmics.

Lucifer gets a mention, due to the fact that even mortal, everyone was still scared of him.

_ps. were did u go on vacation, it seems like u been in a car for like 10 days_

All over America after leaving Canada (as much as the gas prices allowed). We went on a road trip, not really sticking to cities. Mostly, we went into forests, clearings, beaches. Away from civilization.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 26, 2006)

_Now to clarify about speed: Superman can fly much faster than light, but he doesn't ever go faster than 99% of lightspeed in the atmosphere, because if he did he would kill everyone._

Sonic booms.

Flash confirms himself that despite his speed capabilities, he still has to limit in how fast he runs. Otherwise, the sonic booms he leaves behind would cause harm to people.

After Spectre wiped everyone's memory of Flash's identity after the Zoom incident, when Flash rediscovered his powers by dodging bullets, his resulting reflexes created sonic booms that destroyed the neighbourhood he was in. And the guys who tried to hold him up were pretty much hurt like hell.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Example A.
> 
> Mad Jim Jaspers. Due to a tumor in his brain, he can warp reality on a near limitless scale.
> 
> ...



The Beyonder? No, because half his feats were illusions 

His stories have been retconned and he wasn't nowhere near as powerful as he acted.

Also the rest of those guys especially Lucifer is just overkill! Comic Book Guy you know that is a copout!


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Also I think Zoom could create sonic booms by just snapping his fingers.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Franklin Richards lost his powers again._

Catch up with him. He's developing them again.

_The Beyonder? No, because half his feats were illusions 

His stories have been retconned and he wasn't nowhere near as powerful as he acted._

Yes. But before the retcon though, even the LT M-Body was afraid of him. And consequently, the Marvel staff was pissed of the Beyonder character, due to his uberness. Hence, the retcon.

_Also the rest of those guys especially Lucifer is just overkill! Comic Book Guy you know that is a copout!_

Well, there _are_ more cheap and broken characters than DBZ and Superman. Just pointing that out.

_Also I think Zoom could create sonic booms by just snapping his fingers._

Which he did to kill Wally's twin unborn children.

Though, Zoom's powers is not superspped. It's controlling his timeframe relevant to that of main time. A form of chronokinesis.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Yeah, I know his power, Zoom is basically like the Shrike lite.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Can we get a Marvel vs. DC thread going I am in the mood!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

For what? They tie if it's universe vs. universe.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Well right barring Gods! But DC gets to keep and use  Lucifer!


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Well if DC gets Lucifer and Marvel is banned from having any beings on that level, then DC wins automatically.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

I do not think that Marvel has anyone who can beat Lucifer even using Marvel's Gods.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

The Living Tribunal probably could, or at least would be equal.

The One Above All definitely could, since the One Above All is basically God.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

DC wins. No contest.

Thanos and Doom with prep-time would stand up for awhile. Although, they just delay the inevitable. . .


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_The Living Tribunal probably could, or at least would be equal._

Yeah.

_The One Above All definitely could, since the One Above All is basically God._

Well, Stan Lee does exist in comic book form.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Living Tribunal would be equal with Lucifer? I doubt that the only higher  than Lucifer is God himself.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

Please.

The Presence -- DC's god -- is above Lucifer.

The One Above All -- Marvel's god -- is above the Living Tribunal.

Both are respectively the most powerful beings of their respective universes, second to their creator/master.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

And the only one higher than the Living Tribunal is The One Above All, aka God.


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## escamoh (Jun 27, 2006)

So...Stan Lee created a character, The one above all, based on himself?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Lucifer is much smarter and more cunning than Living Tribunal! He can easily outsmart Living tribunal.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

LT is Omniscient.


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## solidspartan (Jun 27, 2006)

Can any of you guys explain to me how supes uses his planet pushing, and FTL flying abilities in a fight. I mean these are good feats and all but show me more of how he fights instead of acts of heroism.


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## Reznor (Jun 27, 2006)

> Can any of you guys explain to me how supes uses his planet pushing, and FTL flying abilities in a fight. I mean these are good feats and all but show me more of how he fights instead of acts of heroism.


 Those feats imply strength and speed.
Speed for delivering the hit and strength for making it matter. 
Those are _relevant_.

However, I disagree with the notion that those are all their is, and I agree with you on seeing more fighting data then just feats of strength/speed. (See my track + field vs. combat thread)

I'm already busy with one DBZ thread, so I'm just stopping by this one.


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## Jin22 (Jun 27, 2006)

I try to tread far away from these topics but I need to get something off my chest, so I'll just step in here and put down my two cents if no body minds. I'll admit to being a former avid DBZ fanboy. I used to think the Dragonball Universe was a little too insane to be compared to any other universe--end of discussion. Who could blame me though? In Dragonball Z, you got characters with insane feats such as Frieza blowing a planet up with a blast from his finger(this didn't happen in the manga I know, but let's assume it did. My point will still made clear) you got the craziest battles like Goku fighting that very same Frieza alone on a planet that was on the verge of destruction with lava erupting all over the place. NO scene of battle gets crazier than that in any comic book, manga or whatever. If there is, some body tell me and I will go and look for it today! Even the issue of Onslaught vs all of the Marvel Heroes wasn't as impressive as the one on one Goku and Frieza battle.  I will even go out on a lim and say the Thanos with IG vs Marvel Heroes battle (though written better) wasn't as impressive either. 

In DBZ you got characters seemingly so powerful that when they charge their Ki, lightning strikes all over the place(Goku going SSJ 3).  There are characters' with Ki so powerful that when powering up an attack, the planet shakes(Cell).  I would go on but I confer that my point is taken.

Now enter Supes. Superman was made to be glamorous yes, but nothing comes within comparison to a DBZ character in the glamorous fashion. In any case Superman may not be as self erupting as a DBZ powerhouse, but he can still lift 40+ Billion lbs where Goku struggles with just 40 tons _after_ transforming into a Super Saijain. Ok, so I concede Superman taking the power category (ridiculously easily at that).  

You know what, I don't want to go any further because what was just said is more than enough   and times over to prove Superman being a few leagues ahead of Goku. In conclusion, Goku's getting his butt wooped by Superman even if he can shake the Earth by powering up.


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## Reznor (Jun 27, 2006)

> Goku struggles with just 40 tons after transforming into a Super Saijain.


 Not that it defeats your point, but 40 tons was _easy _with SSJ.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

Though, it does point out that Superman is stronger than Goku in terms of physical strength.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

If you want a really intense battle, try Beta Ray Bill vs. Stardust (in _Stormbreaker: The saga of Beta Ray Bill_)


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## Jin22 (Jun 27, 2006)

Stormbreaker, huh? I don't recall it though it sounds somewhat familier 



			
				Reznor said:
			
		

> Not that it defeats your point, but 40 tons was _easy _with SSJ.


Ok, so "struggle" was the wrong choice of word selection, but as long as the point is taken.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

I looked at wikipedia and found out that supes really is damn powerfull so i change my mind, goku doesnt rape him. Here i admited supes' power but can you people please stop underestimating goku?. I think his physical strength matches supes'. Sure , i dont have evidence because in goku was never seen moving a planet but he is the japanese equivelent of supes. Which means he can do everything that supes can.
PS:in the 133rd edition of the wizards magazine goku beat supes just by going into SSJ.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

Again, Goku is _not_ a Japanese Superman. There are some things that Goku could not do while Superman could, and vice-versa. That said, Goku's physical strength is nowhere near the magnitude of Superman's.

Wikipedia. . . some parts of the article is right, others somewhat, and others completely wrong.

In response to the Wizard Magazine, the article was poorly written. The fact that they didn't even look into the Superman character deep enough destroys their credibility. In addition, check out their other vs. articles. The majority of them is just inaccurate in how the battle would go, and how the combatants' abilities are both used.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

Goku can just blow up the sun and supes powers are gone.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

First of all, it's unrealistic that Goku would be able to deduce that Superman's powers are solar based.

Second, it's out of Goku's character to destroy the sun. The resulting supernova would just devastate the nearby planets. If Earth is gone, Goku would die in space; he can't breathe in space.

Third, I doubt Goku would be willing to destroy the sun. In addition, I somewhat doubt he would be capable of doing so.


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## The Fireball Kid (Jun 27, 2006)

Goku would never fight Superman. Why would they want to? Wouldn't they be allies? It doesn't make ANY sense, considering they're both good guys, and not rivals. :\


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

Cooler could do it, so Goku can do it too.
And Goku is as strong as supes (Maybe stronger) strong physically, he's a friggin SAIYAN dude.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Not to mention that it wouldn't remove Superman's powers immediately, he stores solar energy in his body like a battery. Destroying the sun would actually be much more dangerous to Goku than it would be to Superman.

Oh, and to quote someone from another board:

"Wizard is a bunch of fucking biased fanboys!!!!!!"


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Cooler could do it, so Goku can do it too._

Since when did Cooler destroy a star in the movies? In addition, the movies are non-canon.

_And Goku is as strong as supes (Maybe stronger) strong physically, he's a friggin SAIYAN dude._

Yet, he still struggled with 40 tons in base form. Even with the Super Saiyan power-ups, it still is dwarfed by Superman's strength capability of _billions_ of tons.


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## DeepThought (Jun 27, 2006)

Let's say they are an even match.
Goku can destroy the Earth.  Superman can destroy the Earth.
Neither of them would (Destroy the sun? that's worth one battle!)

Goku has something Superman doesn't. Magic.
If the battle happens on earth, Goku gathers all the dragonballs and wishes Supes to "another dimension" or wish half of him across the room.  I'd say that Goku could stay one step ahead since he has instant transmission.  

(note: In an all out brawl, Superman rips his arms off)


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

Thats too overrated.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Not to mention that it wouldn't remove Superman's powers immediately, he stores solar energy in his body like a battery._

Bingo.

_Oh, and to quote someone from another board:

"Wizard is a bunch of fucking biased fanboys!!!!!!"_

Hence, why anyone should really take their vs. articles for grains of salt.


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## DeepThought (Jun 27, 2006)

> he's a friggin SAIYAN dude.



HAHAHA!
He's a KRYPTONIAN dude!
(consider yourself rebutted)


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Goku has something Superman doesn't. Magic.
If the battle happens on earth, Goku gathers all the dragonballs and wishes Supes to "another dimension" or wish half of him across the room. I'd say that Goku could stay one step ahead since he has instant transmission. _

That's not fighting in battle.


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## Jin22 (Jun 27, 2006)

The Nameless Pharaoh said:
			
		

> And Goku is as strong as supes (Maybe stronger) strong physically, he's a friggin SAIYAN dude.


Not trying to blaze you guy but, it's posts like this that keeps me far away from debates such as this. That is, if it can still be called a debate


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

I could just as easily say that Superman gets a Phantom Zone projector and traps Goku in the Phantom Zone, or calls in the Spectre and gets him to erase Goku from existence.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_I could just as easily say that Superman gets a Phantom Zone projector and traps Goku in the Phantom Zone,_

*shrugs*

_or calls in the Spectre and gets him to erase Goku from existence._

Well, it has to be a hostless Spectre.


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## DeepThought (Jun 27, 2006)

So Doctor Strange never fought a battle in his life?  All he's got is magic.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

DeepThought said:
			
		

> HAHAHA!
> He's a KRYPTONIAN dude!
> (consider yourself rebutted)


Saiyan: a race that destroyed planets for fun.
Kryptonians: a peaceful and intelligent race.
SAIYAN > KRYPTONIAN Dude.
Consider YOURSELF rebutted.


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 27, 2006)

Please. Saiyans needed to go down in teams and transform into their giant monkey forms to wipe out like, three cities at a time.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

Kryptonians need to go in armies to wipe out planets. Whereas one saiyan can simply blow it up.


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 27, 2006)

The Nameless Pharaoh said:
			
		

> Kryptonians need to go in armies to wipe out planets. Whereas one saiyan can simply blow it up.



And when did a saiyan blow up a planet?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Not counting fillers or movies, never.

EDIT: I should also mention that Daxamites, who were a race that were just as strong as Kryptonians, once had their entire race brainwashed and let loose to attack everything in their way, and they were considered a major threat to the entire universe, despite the fact that this took place 1000 years in the future when there were tons of other superbeings and advanced technology everywhere to combat them.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

hmmm lets see, in the beginning of DBZ vegeta blew a planet up with just a small beam.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Filler, never happened in the manga.


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## DeepThought (Jun 27, 2006)

This is as much fun as poking a hornets nest!


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_So Doctor Strange never fought a battle in his life? All he's got is magic._

Difference is Goku getting the Dragonballs. Which is not part of his natural abilities (ki blasts, super-strength, speed, etc.)

_Saiyan: a race that destroyed planets for fun.
Kryptonians: a peaceful and intelligent race.
SAIYAN > KRYPTONIAN Dude.
Consider YOURSELF rebutted._

Saiyans are a warrior race. Plus, of the original race on Planet Vegeta, Vegeta was the only one who was able to destroy planets.

Plus, yellow sun-bathed Kryptonians would be able to stand up to the Saiyan race from Planet Vegeta.

_hmmm lets see, in the beginning of DBZ vegeta blew a planet up with just a small beam._

Anime filler. Never happened in the manga canon.

Vegeta needs to charge up his Galick Gun to destroy planets.


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

Goku will still beat supes. But im not saying that it will be an easy battle for Goku thought. Supes will give him a hard time but he will lose in the end.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Goku will still beat supes. But im not saying that it will be an easy battle for Goku thought. Supes will give him a hard time but he will lose in the end._

Care to elaborate?


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 27, 2006)

BTW it wasnt mentioned that vegeta was the only one that can destroy planets.
And yes, sun-bathed kryptonians can definately stand up to saiyans but still saiyans would win.
again, Saiyans >>> Kryptonians.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

I'm still not seeing any proof.....


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_BTW it wasnt mentioned that vegeta was the only one that can destroy planets.
And yes, sun-bathed kryptonians can definately stand up to saiyans but still saiyans would win.
again, Saiyans >>> Kryptonians._

I can see the Saiyans' battle experience and warrior character over the usual Kryptonian character, even with their enhanced abilities under a yellow sun. Although, I don't think it would be that easy and one-sided of a battle.

To specify, of the original Saiyan race before the destruction of Planet Vegeta, Vegeta was the only Saiyan then in manga canon to have been shown to be able to destroy a planet with his Galick Gun.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

It has become aware to me that most people that post in this entire Forum know nothing of Dragonball.

I keep reading that Goku struggled with 40 tons but be aware that in the Kai's world it is 10 times earth's gravity so it was really 400 tons.

Also just because Superman can push a planet does not mean that he is stronger than Goku in a *fight!* Superman may have raw strength but in a fight his punches are not as fast and strong as Goku's.

It is like a football player, just because a certain player can Bench press 500 pounds does not mean that he is the better football player.

Goku is hell of strong and his strength is always shown in battle.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Um, wrong.

It if was 400 tons, they would have said 400 tons, no matter the gravity.

If you have 40 tons on earth, and you have 40 tons on the moon, they are the same thing, except the 40 tons on the moon requires more mass.

Not to mention the gravity of that particular planet was never stated.

And the fact that Superman is physically stronger and faster does mean that his punches are stronger and faster. That's common sense.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, wrong.
> 
> It if was 400 tons, they would have said 400 tons, no matter the gravity.
> 
> ...



Endless Mike this is why you do not know what you are talking about!

I am going to say this and make it clear for you..

EndlessMike YOU ONLY WATCHED THE F***ING DUB SO PLEASE BE QUIET AND LEARN!

Kai's planet is a place for training it was known since the start of DBZ. The gravity on the Kai's planet was 10 times heavier than earth's Gravity. Which makes that 400 tons. .


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_If you have 40 tons on earth, and you have 40 tons on the moon, they are the same thing, except the 40 tons on the moon requires more mass._

I remember a similar adage. . .

Despite the weight, it's nowhere near the magnitude of Superman's strength.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

For the last time, I have watched some of the dub, some of the sub, and read some of the manga, so STFU.

And the gravity on that one small planet was 10x, but it was destroyed at the end of the Cell saga, the 40 tons thing happened on another planet.

Not to mention that 40 tons is the same on any planet, since a measure of weight is constant, as opposed to mass.

If you collect enough stuff to weigh 40 tons on one planet, and collect enough stuff to weigh 40 tons on a planet with 10x the first planet's gravity, the 40 ton weight on the first planet with have 10 times as much mass, but it will still weigh the same as the other one, as in, exert the same force against the ground or anyone who picks it up.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

You know Physics, Endless Mike?


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## Keollyn (Jun 27, 2006)

Phenom and a host of other DBZ fanchildren failed physics class.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

It may sound counterintuitive, but I'm right.

If you take a 40 - ton weight from earth and take it to the moon, it will weigh less, it will no longer be a 40 - ton weight.

However, a 40 - ton weight that actually weights 40 tons on the moon will have more mass than the 40 - ton weight from earth, but they will both exert the same gravitational force on the ground (weight) when put on their respective planets.

That's why if the weight Goku was training with was actually 400 tons, they would have called it '400 tons' not '40 tons'.

Tons is a measure of weight, not mass.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> For the last time, I have watched some of the dub, some of the sub, and read some of the manga, so STFU.
> 
> And the gravity on that one small planet was 10x, but it was destroyed at the end of the Cell saga, the 40 tons thing happened on another planet.



Damn you know nothing, you are really a fool Mike!


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## Renegade (Jun 27, 2006)

goku, hands down. even without all the lvls of ssj, goku would still pwn.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It may sound counterintuitive, but I'm right.
> 
> If you take a 40 - ton weight from earth and take it to the moon, it will weigh less, it will no longer be a 40 - ton weight.
> 
> ...



You definetly do not know what the hell you are talking about. Kai's planet is not the damn moon.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

I was just using the moon as an example of a body that has different gravity from the earth.

The same principle applies.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

Know the definition of an 'analogy?'


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

none of you have yet to proove why Supes win's?


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## Keollyn (Jun 27, 2006)

There has been ton of proof, you just choose to ignore them.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

If you read the last 8 pages those so called proofs have been countered!

Yet It's Keollyn, I expect that from you.


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## Countach (Jun 27, 2006)

u are a fool

we have posted endless amout of data and u refuse to see the truth

1. speed

superman has been proven to go 99% the speed of light

goku has not, their are too many instances in dbz that disprove speed

superman:1 goku:zero

2. strength

according to you gokus best feat is lifting a city wich probly wieghs 2000 metric tons?

superman can push planets, earth has a mass of 5.9742?10^24 kg, wich is 5.9x10^24 kg, but u have to multiply that by the gravital force of the sun, wich is 9.8 times 333,388

you get the picture

so if superman is faster and stronger, how can goku win?


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> u are a fool
> 
> we have posted endless amout of data and u refuse to see the truth
> 
> ...



Like I said, Go read the last 10 pages and you will see that I answered all of these weak ass claims.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

> Know the definition of an 'analogy?'



Do you know how Superman can beat Goku? I guess not!


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

We've provided plenty of proof, page after page after page of it, and you have no more arguments, now you're just babbling. You should just concede, there's no honor lost in admitting you lose.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

Rereading takes awhile. Similarly, we could ask you to reread.

We (or at least, I) try not to dismiss your arguments, and debate from there on.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Do you know how Superman can beat Goku? I guess not!_

Do not presume what I know and can argue, and do not try to arrogantly place yourself as the foremost savant of DBZ.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> We've provided plenty of proof, page after page after page of it, and you have no more arguments, now you're just babbling. You should just concede, there's no honor lost in admitting you lose.



no you have not! I have shot all of your arguments down, but if you do not want to continue that is fine. You still have yet to proove why supes win.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Yes we have, you're just too stubborn to see it.

Try addressing the fact that Superman is much faster, stronger, and more durable than Goku.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_no you have not! I have shot all of your arguments down,_

After dismissing some, and moving onto another topic completely.

_but if you do not want to continue that is fine._

I'll continue; I've yet to listen to Simon & Garfunkel, as I said back in the Vegito vs. Vegito thread.

_You still have yet to proove why supes win._

We could say likewise and say you have yet to prove how Goku would win.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes we have, you're just too stubborn to see it.
> 
> Try addressing the fact that Superman is much faster, stronger, and more durable than Goku.



Wrong! like I said where did you get faster and stronger from? Supes is no where near stronger or faster than Goku in a fight.


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## Reznor (Jun 27, 2006)

> superman can push planets, earth has a mass of 5.9742?10^24 kg, wich is 5.9x10^24 kg, but u have to multiply that by the gravital force of the sun, wich is 9.8 times 333,388


 Actually, 9.8 is the surface gravity on Earth.

Earth is not on the surface of the Sun, so you can use that.

Also, Superman is not neccesarily pushing in the gravitation of the sun. If he pushes perpendicular to field of gravity, it takes no force.

What matters is how fast he can make it accelerate by pushing it. Then you multiply that mass by that acceleration.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

He once, with the help of 3 other JLA members, pushed the moon towards the earth so fast that it got into low earth orbit in just a few seconds. That's a significant fraction of lightspeed.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_Supes is no where near stronger or faster than Goku in a fight._

Faster's debatable.

Stronger? I don't see how Goku is stronger.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Supes is no where near stronger or faster than Goku in a fight._
> 
> Faster's debatable.
> 
> Stronger? I don't see how Goku is stronger.



No Goku is faster! 

Goku's punches are faster and stronger than Superman's, Goku's punches in battle do more damage than Supes punches in battle.

Goku wins.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He once, with the help of 3 other JLA members, pushed the moon towards the earth so fast that it got into low earth orbit in just a few seconds. That's a significant fraction of lightspeed.



No it is not, Superman got help he did not do it by itslef, once again a feat of propulsion not strength.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Right, because we all remember that time when Goku punched a planet into pieces.

Oh, wait....


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No it is not, Superman got help he did not do it by itslef, once again a feat of propulsion not strength.



He was sharing the task equally, and it takes energy to move a certain mass at a certain velocity.

KE = 1/2mv^2.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Right, because we all remember that time when Goku punched a planet into pieces.
> 
> Oh, wait....



Never seen Supes punches in *BATTLE * create barriers in the ground, create shockwaves that destroys mountains.

Once again Goku with enough Ki in his punch can shatter a planet. Why would he punch his own planet?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 27, 2006)

You have no proof he can destroy a planet physically, especially when his strongest punches do nowhere near that amount of damage.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Uh. yes I do, Super Saiya-jin 3 goku and Majin Buu's fight was destrying planet earth, and they only used punches and kicks.

Freeza and Goku on planet Namek was destroying Namek using Strength only!

Once again Supes In *Battle *is no where near as Good as Goku is!


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## Phenomenol (Jun 27, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes we have, you're just too stubborn to see it.
> 
> Try addressing the fact that Superman is much faster, stronger, and more durable than Goku.



Superman is faster? 

No he is not faster than Goku, Supes is slow as hell in battle Goku will be speed blitzing his ass all day!

Stronger?

Supes raw strength is better than Goku's but not his fighting strength. Goku's Combat strength is far better than Supes.

Durable?

Goku can take a planet explosion without batting an eyelid. He is invulnerable to a certain extent just Superman is invulnerable to a certain extent. Using Andriod 17 (earlier) breaking Vegeta arm as an example makes much sense after all her power level was higher than his so obviously she could damage him. Doomsday broke Superman arm in hunter/prey for example, his strength is greater than supermans


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## Mysticwolf6671 (Jun 27, 2006)

I think basicly super man is stronger and faster but Goku is the better fighter being a martial artist,So think of it as one of the worlds strongest men fighting a mixed martial artist.Could go either way really.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 27, 2006)

_No Goku is faster! _

Debatable.

_Goku's punches are faster and stronger than Superman's, Goku's punches in battle do more damage than Supes punches in battle._

Debatable. Plus, Superman's the majority of the time pulls his punches a great deal.

_Goku wins._

_Not decided.Never seen Supes punches in BATTLE create barriers in the ground, create shockwaves that destroys mountains._

"The absence of proof is not the proof of absence."

In This Is Your Life Superman part 1, Superman #226, Superman and E2 Superman's exchanged blows shattered time. 

_Once again Goku with enough Ki in his punch can shatter a planet._

No, he can't. His physical strength is not capable of doing so.

_Uh. yes I do, Super Saiya-jin 3 goku and Majin Buu's fight was destrying planet earth, and they only used punches and kicks._

The planet still held. I'll rewatch the episode to confirm.

_Freeza and Goku on planet Namek was destroying Namek using Strength only!_

Note, Frieza set the expiry date on the planet when he ki blasted it.

_Superman is faster? 

No he is not faster than Goku, Supes is slow as hell in battle Goku will be speed blitzing his ass all day!_

We have to repost all the speed feats to your criteria again? Give me awhile to search a couple of threads.

_Stronger?

Supes raw strength is better than Goku's but not his fighting strength. Goku's Combat strength is far better than Supes._

Combat strength? Physical strength is physical strength. And Superman is far stronger.

_Durable?

Goku can take a planet explosion without batting an eyelid. He is invulnerable to a certain extent just Superman is invulnerable to a certain extent._

If Goku was planet destroying durable, why didn't he die when Cell self-destructed? Why didn't he take on Kid Buu's blast head-on?

_Using Andriod 17 (earlier) breaking Vegeta arm as an example makes much sense after all her power level was higher than his so obviously she could damage him. Doomsday broke Superman arm in hunter/prey for example, his strength is greater than supermans_

Not to mention he's Kryptonian, like Superman. Kryptonian's can bypass one another's bio-electric aura, leaving Superman his natural durability.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

> Debatable. Plus, Superman's the majority of the time pulls his punches a great deal.



No he does not.



> "The absence of proof is not the proof of absence."



Likewise!



> No, he can't. His physical strength is not capable of doing so.



Where's your proof of this? When Goku and Fat Buu was destroying the planet as they fought!



> We have to repost all the speed feats to your criteria again? Give me awhile to search a couple of threads.



Superman can not fight at lightspeed!



> If Goku was planet destroying durable, why didn't he die when Cell self-destructed? Why didn't he take on Kid Buu's blast head-on?



You really You have no concept on how Ki blasts work do you? *I know why don't I post where supes DIES from a physical beat down in the obsidion age arc. I didn't see the planet being rocked then*


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## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

The burden of proof is on you to prove that Goku is that strong, and it is repeatedly stated that Superman holds back all the time.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Superman and Goku's feats are very different. Goku's feats remain in battle and in Power Level's! not in pushing objects. Goku is simply the better fighter the martial artist with more experience skills and techniques! Why would Goku punch his own planet anyway? 



> and it is repeatedly stated that Superman holds back all the time.



Supes doesn't ALWAYS hold back at all, thats crap. He's held back on the people he could kill , But against heavy hitters like Doomsday, Darkseid, Gog , Shaggy man etc he doesn't hold back ****. Because if he did he would be DEAD. Do not feed me that garbage.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 28, 2006)

_No he does not._

Yes he does. Again, Supergirl #5 is the most recent confirmation of him limiting his capabilities.

_Likewise!_

Yet, we can make reasonable conclusions based on what we've seen.


_Where's your proof of this? When Goku and Fat Buu was destroying the planet as they fought!_

The fact that he struggled with the 40 (or 400 in your case) tons in base form. Despite the SSJ power-ups, it's nowhere close to Superman's billion strength range.

_Superman can not fight at lightspeed!_

That, and DBZ's fight, are debatable.

_You really You have no concept on how Ki blasts work do you?_

And you have the foremost knowledge in DBZ? Elaborate then.

_I know why don't I post where supes DIES from a physical beat down in the obsidion age arc. I didn't see the planet being rocked then_

Give me the JLA issues and I'll go out and buy them myself.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 28, 2006)

_Supes doesn't ALWAYS hold back at all, thats crap. He's held back on the people he could kill , But against heavy hitters like Doomsday, Darkseid, Gog , Shaggy man etc he doesn't hold back ****. Because if he did he would be DEAD. Do not feed me that garbage._

Believe or not, he confirms this. If you call that a hyperbole, then Cell's statement of destroying the solar system is a hyperbole.

If he did not want to hold back, he goes for a sun-dip, as seen in Our Worlds at War.


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## Countach (Jun 28, 2006)

goes into shell, tired of people defending goku with the same aguments, never actualy dispoving anything and just saying goku is good at martal arts and that is all u need to beat superman


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

You're right Goku hasn't got many showings of high physical strength, but that doesn't prove Goku ISN'T stronger than Superman since we haven't seen Goku FAIL to lift something when at his most powerful

BUT if we are including Gt versions of Goku then the guy did lift a city which would put him in the billions of tons range. I think you'd agree that isn't exactly weak


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## Countach (Jun 28, 2006)

first a city does not come close to billions of tons,

and all i am saying is when u say martial arts techniques, is how can goku hurt superman when most people think that goku cant hurt superman with his punchs.

so it comes down to is if goku can hurt superman with kai blasts, and if yes can he hit him


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Wrong Have you seen what the punches in DBZ done? The damage from the impacts are very explosive. Goku's punches are stronger and faster than Superman's in battle! yeah Superman can push a moon but that means nothing in combat.

Goku has enough strenght to battle Superman! Goku's attacks are too fast for Supes.


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## Miselius (Jun 28, 2006)

Superman can't be hurted whitout cybronite (or something like that, i don't remember exactly), so Goku don't stand a change if he don't have it.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 28, 2006)

_You're right Goku hasn't got many showings of high physical strength, but that doesn't prove Goku ISN'T stronger than Superman since we haven't seen Goku FAIL to lift something when at his most powerful_

Yet, in his base for of tens (in your case hundreds) of tons, the increase would not be much. At best, I'd give Goku's strength capability to be around a few thousands tons at most, million to be generous. Superman's billion range is still far above.

_That said I think that Superman is stronger than Goku. BUT if we are including Gt versions of Goku then the guy did lift a city which would put him in the billions of tons range. I think you'd agree that isn't exactly weak_

A city does not weigh a billion tons. I believe there was also the inconsistency in GT when he couldn't hold up a building.

_Of course being weaker than Superman is no big deal since Goku dwarfs Supes in fighting martial arts technique which doesn't require being overly strong so all evens out._

Hmm.

_Wrong Have you seen what the punches in DBZ done? The damage from the impacts are very explosive._

So?

_Goku's punches are stronger and faster than Superman's in battle!_

I doubt they're stronger than Superman. There were times when Superman punched his enemies to orbit (Lobo being one of them), or him being punched into orbit. There were other times when he was punched clean through the earth, against Etrigan and Bizarro.

_yeah Superman can push a moon but that means nothing in combat._

Imagine being punched by someone with that kind of strength.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Miselius said:
			
		

> Superman can't be hurted whitout cybronite (or something like that, i don't remember exactly), so Goku don't stand a change if he don't have it.



For the love of god have you actually read Death of Superman, Hunter prey or Doomsday wars? 



> and it is repeatedly stated that Superman holds back all the time.



LOL hold back against Doomsday and Darkseid??

(I'm not even going to mention the Anti-monitor)

I think not.. 

Please... bloodlusted no holding back Superman LOST to Wonderwoman:amazed


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## Orotachi (Jun 28, 2006)

*Spoiler*: _Sort of a metabattledome_ 



Feats from DBZ are mostly irrelevant. especially about measuring their strenght,such as lifting, speed such as by gohan getting too late for the class.or by goku, who haven't save his siblings from an exploding planet. even though he has super speed(i know he's been at lightspeed on that time,@ the fact that he's above speed of lightning in DB).and of course the late exploding planet survival thing(i know freeza's limb is damn weaker than SSJ goku's limb but still survived).

Because most of the feat came from DBZ doesn't actually near on its "PREVIEWS", "FACTS" and most of all "THE FEATURES of capability".

If we used the facts here as well as the comparison of continuity here. here we may actually clearly see the truth.*but unless we believed the feats.* in which damn far from the facts and *continuity comparison* such as; speed "more than lightning", by "getting tooo powerfull in freeza arc,known as the chapter of SSJ arc(which he's power/speed/strenght increases to hundred million,according to daizensuu or what do you think should it be?). we could say that DBZ feats and facts are enormously different? or doesn't actually FOCUS ON THE FEATS,rather showing it.

Another thing is the fact that in buu saga.in buu saga which we may actually conceived that they have previous capabilities of exploding a planet b4! right @ vegeta came in earth. we know that fact such as 18,000(or what do you think should be?) can blow up the entire earth instantly. while freeza's weakess form could do that with ease and so on till buu arc(the SSJ 3 issue), which we may think that if freeza's PL 530000 to millionths could actually blow the planet like a candle with ease. how much more about the SSJ3? or the much improve SSJ2 in battle? 

Here, i will show you a direct feat from facts(particularly,previews facts) which kid buu gently try to explodes the earth:






Notice that he try to explode the planet very gently,without any EAGER at all.as we know that he's damn or slightly weaker than buutenks or buuhan. and you also notice,the FOLLOW UP of vegeta. as he also unleash a gentle blast(but not as hell as buu did,due to RUSH)just to stopped that blast. That particular blast,as well as the previews fight in the Entire DBZ, makes a proove that they are actually preventing their KI/powers from such a devasting effect on earth,i mean the entire solar system(cell arc).even thought they're overated to do it. as they really try to save it for good.so the only fact for the feat question here is, How strong is their blast if they try to held the fight in space.not to mention some filler anime feats that BROLY did wipe-out the entire spiral galaxy in seconds.and the way kidbuu also wipe out the entire galaxy in seconds.and as we definetly know that an average SSJ broly can't compete with SSJ2 nor SSJ3, especially kidbuu

Conclusion:Basing on some of the bum feats in DBZ is not their major capabilities.it will definetly disqualify DBZ against any other char in the thread.and as i define DB/DBZ/DBGT,By using "ONLY FEATS", are not qualification for their battle, only FACTS!(ie: i sensed cell was stronger than me(goku), so i'll train hard.).


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'm still not seeing any proof.....


Lets see:-
1- frieza feared the legend of the super saiyan so much that he had to destroy the saiyans planet.
2- in the manga it was stated that the super saiyan is so strong that he destroyed himself. it was also stated that no force is stronger than a SSn when he's at battle.
3- The saiyans were also a major threat to the universe too. especially super saiyans who were feared by the entire universe.

so Saiyans >>>>> Kryptonians
which means Goku > or = Supes but definately not < supes.


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## Orotachi (Jun 28, 2006)

*Spoiler*: _another Sort of a meta-battledome_ 



For the record, SSJ3 Goku's Power level can be sense outside the infinite universe scale.particularly the farthest in the other world "The holy sphere" in ru kaio shin's scrade planet.with that amount of power, does it mean he can destroyed the universe with full effort?or just like a cheap way evil buu/SSJ3 gotenks did to hyperbolic time chamber.we dont exactly know as long we haven't saw him do it, its mystery.thought we have SSJ4 which is also unknown.




Conclusion:Basing on some of the bum feats in DBZ is not their major capabilities.it will definetly disqualify DBZ against any other char in the thread.and as i define DB/DBZ/DBGT,By using "ONLY FEATS", are not qualification for their battle, only FACTS!(ie: i sensed cell was stronger than me(goku), so i'll train hard.)


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## The Nameless Pharaoh (Jun 28, 2006)

Dude , i love that picture you put up there. (2nd spoiler).


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 28, 2006)

_LOL hold back against Doomsday and Darkseid??_

Against Darkseid, yes, even. It's just that he holds back less.

Again, the only 2 confirmed times he let loose was the Doomsday deathblow and against Brainac 13 during Our Worlds at War.

_(I'm not even going to mention the Anti-monitor)_

That doesn't count. That's Earth-1 Superman. Our post-Crisis Superman is actually a _third_ version.

_Please... bloodlusted no holding back Superman LOST to Wonderwoman_

Confirm this? Which issue and storyline?

Wonder Woman was losing to Supes during the Sacrifice arc, and she died pretty fast under his hands during the Absolute Power arc of Batman & Superman.

_Basing on some of the bum feats in DBZ is not their major capabilities._

And likewise for comic book characters. DBZ has been written under Toriyama's hand, while Superman and every other comic book character has been written under hundreds of different writers. There are feats which contradict what has been established earlier, and so on.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _LOL hold back against Doomsday and Darkseid??_
> 
> Against Darkseid, yes, even. It's just that he holds back less.
> 
> ...



Yet Superman has been around longer and is obviously going to get more feats and more power showing Under different writers who always had Superman increasing in power unlike Goku. Why do you think Toriyama was in a rush to stop DB! He even said it himself that he put himself in a corner because the Saiya-jins power is unlimited. He would have to come up with different ways to power each character up. Orotachi is right though Basing on some of the bum feats in DBZ is not their major capabilities, Toriyama also knew this.


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## Aruarian (Jun 28, 2006)

To be fair, he knew this because he wrote the damn story.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> To be fair, he knew this because he wrote the damn story.



Yes he already knew this that is why he rushed to finish the story of Dragonball not prolong it.


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## Aruarian (Jun 28, 2006)

Well, he could've just put a limit to the powers, and I believe he did with the 'not being able to go full out in the human world', if I recall the Buu-arc correctly.

He still prolonged it too long for my liking, though. I mean, Frieza was supposed to be the strongest, then Goku became stronger, Frieza's pops visited Earth, Trunks turned up, etc. 

Exactly the reasons why my fave DBZ arc was the Sayjin Arc.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> *Well, he could've just put a limit to the powers, and I believe he did with the 'not being able to go full out in the human world', if I recall the Buu-arc correctly.*
> 
> He still prolonged it too long for my liking, though. I mean, Frieza was supposed to be the strongest, then Goku became stronger, Frieza's pops visited Earth, Trunks turned up, etc.
> 
> Exactly the reasons why my fave DBZ arc was the Sayjin Arc.



Very true! You just answerd your own question.


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## Aruarian (Jun 28, 2006)

I did not ask a question before this one?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

Listen, we have already proved Superman is stronger.

We have already proved he is faster (FTL speeds compared to sublight speeds).

We have already proved he is more durable.

What more do you want?


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## solidspartan (Jun 28, 2006)

I just want to see him use these abilities in a real fight, not just flying across the galaxy. I mean can he punch wich a billion tons of force, or was he just exerting the power of his whole body together and not just one of his arms. He may be able to travel faster than light but has he been shown to do so while fighting? These are the things I want to know.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

Yes, he did that against Doomsday for example.


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## hiddenleafvillage (Jun 28, 2006)

i think Goku ss4 would beat superman. he would kick supermans ass.


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## Pinkaugust (Jun 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Listen, we have already proved Superman is stronger.
> 
> We have already proved he is faster (FTL speeds compared to sublight speeds).
> 
> ...


can you summate this instead of just saying it?

I believe Superman is strong, but he is not a warrior, and certainly not a super saiyajin warrior, and does not know how to use Ki. He can endure very much, but what are we really comparing here? Goku recieves thousands of punches in every fight, and still goes strong, and those punches can destroy mountains!
Can superman really endure that much?

Goku may not have the advantage of speed, but he has the advantage in fighting skill, and he has faced many opponents stronger than himself, and he has an enormous Ki, which he can use to form extremely powerful weapons, deadlier than a million rockets, more powerful than a nuclear bomb.

Can superman really form up similar power?


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 28, 2006)

Can you prove that each punch had the power to destroy mountains, or otherwise that he really endured thousands of punches?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

Superman routinely endures punches which have the power to destroy planets.

He survived a missile that could have destroyed half of an entire galaxy.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Listen, we have already proved Superman is stronger.
> 
> *Supes is a little stronger in raw strength (pushing,lifting etc), but Goku is a Martial artist and Goku is stronger in Combat!*
> 
> ...



I want actual proof on your claims, not just baseless statements.


----------



## Keollyn (Jun 28, 2006)

Goku cannot take planet busters..... Why do you think he always shoots one of his own to block/repel said busters?


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## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

He just doesn't go faster than light in the atmosphere because it would kill everybody.

He goes FTL in space all the time.

And stronger is stronger. There's no such thing as being 'stronger in combat'. If your strength feats don't measure up, then you are weaker, period.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Goku cannot take planet busters..... Why do you think he always shoots one of his own to block/repel said busters?



Wrong as usual!

Goku can take a planet destroying blast since a disembodied Freeza near death survived one easily.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

Do you have any actual arguments or just the same old stupid lines over and over again when you've lost a point?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

I smashed all of your arguments Mike..


----------



## DeepThought (Jun 28, 2006)

I'm going to agree that Goku is a martial arts expert (it's what he studied for years)
While Superman is stronger.

Goku is faster (instant transmission)
but Superman has more versatile attacks. (heat vision, freeze breath)


----------



## Bullet (Jun 28, 2006)

Here Supes can see lightspeed movement even better since his powers has return. He can see the energy patterns shift and change in the circuitry of the Kyrptonian battle ship. 



His brain moves at a far faster rate then Goku's, and he's already faster then him. Supes can easily make short work of Goku if he wanted to.



> I want actual proof on your claims, not just baseless statements.



It's been proven plenty of times, you just always ignore it.


----------



## Id (Jun 28, 2006)

solidspartan said:
			
		

> I just want to see him use these abilities in a real fight, not just flying across the galaxy. I mean can he punch wich a billion tons of force, or was he just exerting the power of his whole body together and not just one of his arms. He may be able to travel faster than light but has he been shown to do so while fighting? These are the things I want to know.


How about the exchange of blows ware so hard it destroyed an empty planet?

Oh and I posted those scans on this debate please look for them, if you to lazy to look them over
Check out the Power directory in the Meta Batledome. It has various scans including the ones I posted in this debate.


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## Keollyn (Jun 28, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong as usual!
> 
> Goku can take a planet destroying blast since a disembodied Freeza near death survived one easily.



I'm not seeing how you came to this conclusion with such a feat from someone that ISN'T Goku....

And Frieza didn't take the blast... the planet's core took the blast...


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 28, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Here Supes can see lightspeed movement even better since his powers has return. He can see the energy patterns shift and change in the circuitry of the Kyrptonian battle ship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bwahhahaaaa!  Such a load of crap.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I smashed all of your arguments Mike..




LOL, that'll be the day.

You just keep stating the same crap all over again and not refuting anything.

You've lost.

Just give up.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 28, 2006)

Yes I have, you're just too stubborn to admit it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

No you didn't, you just kept blabbering nonsense about how strength feats don't count unless they're in a battle (despite the fact that it's impossible to determine strength from just a battle), saying that Superman is only 0.99c, and ignoring that he only limits himself to that speed in the atmosphere so he doesn't kill everyone, saying that Superman doesn't hold back all the time even though it is stated in practically ever other comic book he's in, and a bunch of other BS.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

I've made plenty.

You've just been reinforcing your own wall of ignorance the whole time.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jun 29, 2006)

Phenomenol, you got pwnd with every post.


----------



## kombak (Jun 29, 2006)

Goku > superman

Guys , the 1st time we saw vegeta , he destroyed a whole planet with 2 fingers in the anime...
When he fought goku , he was going to destroy the planet with his garrick gun.....
Put the same garrick gun on a SSJ3 goku , and its like.....nothing at all , goku wouldnt even notice it...

u know , the simple , little beam for ssj4 goku for exemple , could be a  LOT stronger than the big kameha gohan used on cell .....u see what i mean , goku can take a planet destroyer beam without even notice it....

Broly destroyed a planet with a tiny beam


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Goku > superman
> 
> Guys , the 1st time we saw vegeta , he destroyed a whole planet with 2 fingers in the anime...



Non - canon, never happened in the manga.



> When he fought goku , he was going to destroy the planet with his garrick gun.....



And....?



> Put the same garrick gun on a SSJ3 goku , and its like.....nothing at all , goku wouldnt even notice it...



Then how come he is always afraid whenever someone fires off a supposedly 'planet - destroying' blast, even towards the end of the manga when he is more powerful?



> u know , the simple , little beam for ssj4 goku for exemple , could be a  LOT stronger than the big kameha gohan used on cell .....u see what i mean , goku can take a planet destroyer beam without even notice it....



Yet he never has......



> Broly destroyed a planet with a tiny beam



Which is also non - canon.

Not to mention you're ignoring the fact that Superman can destroy planets with physical strength, which is a greater feat than doing so by energy projection.


----------



## Heroin (Jun 29, 2006)

this is not even a match goku dosn't have to use super saiyan to beat him....

One or 2 hits he is done...

Goku hands down....


----------



## kombak (Jun 29, 2006)

U seems to know superman pretty well but not really dbz i think....

BTW , goku and a lot of other dbz guys should be able to destroy planet by physical strengh (and what does that mean? u punch the ground? ) 


GOku transforming SSJ3 has an effect on the whole planet , everything was a lot different , earthquake , thunder , and this everywhere on the planet.... !p


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## Aruarian (Jun 29, 2006)

Superman has moved the Earth back in time by simply flying around it.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 29, 2006)

_Wrong CBG! If he held back against Darkseid who is arguably stronger than Supes he would be dead._

He holds back _less_. Again, if he wanted to go all-out, he goes for a sun-dip. Darkseid, to my knowledge, has no capability in going toe-to-toe with a sun-dipped (OWAW) Superman.

_Such a load of crap._

It's true. So far, they're the only two _confirmed_ times he went 100% all-out.

_Still this is superman and it does count!_

There are 3 main versions of Superman. Earth-2 (Golden Age), Earth-1 (Silver-Age aka Pre-Crisis), and post-Crisis (our version, the third).

_and post crisis only greatest feat strength wise is moving war world(Sundipped)_

There are other strength feats with Superman in base form. But I can only read so much and remember so much.

_I am going to look through my comics now!_

Please do.

_Yet Superman has been around longer and is obviously going to get more feats and more power showing Under different writers who always had Superman increasing in power unlike Goku._

No. Other writers actually try to tone down/weaken Superman. His opwer fluctuates variably between writers, from minimal to max. Like Joe Kelly and John Bryne's different renditions of Superman.

_Why do you think Toriyama was in a rush to stop DB! He even said it himself that he put himself in a corner because the Saiya-jins power is unlimited._

If that was true, the entire DBZ continuum would have collapsed under such an outburst of power.

_He would have to come up with different ways to power each character up. Orotachi is right though Basing on some of the bum feats in DBZ is not their major capabilities, Toriyama also knew this._

And likewise, basing some of the 'bum feats' of Superman is not their major capabilities. There are contradictions in both mediums.

_Goku recieves thousands of punches in every fight, and still goes strong, and those punches can destroy mountains!
Can superman really endure that much?_

He's been punched hard enough to be sent through the earth a few times, to the moon once, and into orbit a few times. And he manages to get up relatively unharmed to _slightly_ dazed. And note, some of the people who hit him then had magic (Etrigan & Bizarro).

_Goku may not have the advantage of speed, but he has the advantage in fighting skill, and he has faced many opponents stronger than himself, and he has an enormous Ki, which he can use to form extremely powerful weapons, deadlier than a million rockets, more powerful than a nuclear bomb.

Can superman really form up similar power?_

Mageddon Warhead, black holes, damn powerful nukes (more powerful than our convenient nukes), a planet destroying explosion, and others.

_Supes is a little stronger in raw strength (pushing,lifting etc), but Goku is a Martial artist and Goku is stronger in Combat!_\

Superman is a LOT stronger than Goku in raw strength.

_Wrong! Goku fights at faster than light speeds Superman does not. I can post the scan from JLA where supes says he's NOT faster than light when asked to outrun a zeta beam. I still maintain that supes top speed is 99% light speed._

War of the Gods #4: Superman actually out-raced an energy beam to its target. In JLA: Heavens Ladder, it is stated that Superman can race a photon to its target.

JLA issue? So I can determine the writer.

_Goku can take a planet explosion without batting an eyelid. He is invulnerable to a certain extent just Superman is invulnerable to a certain extent._

Explain. And the ki properties to, as you question my credibility on ki.

_He just doesn't go faster than light in the atmosphere because it would kill everybody._

Same with Flash. One of the necessary limitations that Superman imposes upon himself.

_He goes FTL in space all the time._

Yeah. I can confirm this with several issues.

_Goku can take a planet destroying blast since a disembodied Freeza near death survived one easily._

And yet, he died with Cell's self-destruct and would have have been able to use his body as a shield in front of Kid Buu's blast. Please explain that to me.

_How about the exchange of blows ware so hard it destroyed an empty planet?_

I reposted that. Phenom wants the previous page.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 29, 2006)

_Trace Command Signals? LOL Wow Goku can sense ships moving 50 times the speed of light So what's your point?_

Far away from him. Not in close proximity.

_Goku fights at faster than lightspeeds_

Prove it?

_this is not even a match goku dosn't have to use super saiyan to beat him....

One or 2 hits he is done...

Goku hands down...._

If you want Super Saiyan, sun-dipped Superman is an equivalent, but too much though. If you want to go further, we'll use a blue star for a sun-dip. And that's far more dangerous to both parties.

_BTW , goku and a lot of other dbz guys should be able to destroy planet by physical strengh (and what does that mean? u punch the ground? ) _

Yes. But they have not shown anywhere near that kind of strength capability.

_GOku transforming SSJ3 has an effect on the whole planet , everything was a lot different , earthquake , thunder , and this everywhere on the planet.... !p_

So? The planet still held.


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## kombak (Jun 29, 2006)

as he tsaid , sayan power are unlimited....
may i remind  that  EACH time theyre almost dead , they can wake up 2 times stronger? there is no limit at all to goku strength , DBZ had to finish coz every fight after are identical , coz even if the ennemy is stronger , u cant see really the difference in a real combat....

BTW there is the plot , if nobody crush the earth with one finger thats becoz it destroy DBZuniverse ,  but come on , take Little buu , he destroyed full galaxy , planet like nothing , he can open others dimensions.


Ure saying superman can take with ease , nuclear punch?

a 10x kameha , should be around 1 billion nuclear ....not even close in fact


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

Not to mention the effect on the planet from the SSJ3 transformation was a result of ki release. We already know they can destroy planets with ki. The point is that they can't do so with raw strength.

Why is that so important?

Think of it this way:

If I had a rocket launcher, I could destroy a tank.

However, I would still easily lose in a fight against a guy who could destroy a tank with his bare hands.

(Oh, BTW, Post - Crisis Darkseid is not that tough usually, he was exponentially stronger Pre - Crisis, when he could easily beat even Pre - Crisis Superman (much stronger version) going all - out).


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## Aruarian (Jun 29, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Ure saying superman can take with ease , nuclear punch?
> 
> a 10x kameha , should be around 1 billion nuclear ....not even close in fact


You really don't know what you're talking about, do you?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> as he tsaid , sayan power are unlimited....



Then how come they get beaten all the time?



> may i remind  that  EACH time theyre almost dead , they can wake up 2 times stronger?



No, actually, they die, and then get resurrected. But we're going with all the powers shown, we can't just extrapolate new powers that were never shown in canon. Or else I can give Superman "Anti - Goku vision" or something.



> there is no limit at all to goku strength



I suppose that's why he had trouble lifting 40 tons. 




> , DBZ had to finish coz every fight after are identical , coz even if the ennemy is stronger , u cant see really the difference in a real combat....



Not sure what you're saying here.



> BTW there is the plot , if nobody crush the earth with one finger thats becoz it destroy DBZuniverse ,  but come on , take Little buu , he destroyed full galaxy , planet like nothing , he can open others dimensions.



Never destroyed a galaxy in the manga, so it's non - canon filler. In the anime it was never said how long it took him, most likely millions of years since he works by going from planet to planet and destroying them one at a time.




> Ure saying superman can take with ease , nuclear punch?



Well considering that one time after being stuck in an entire island full of Kryptonite, he not only survived a combined nuclear assault, but escaped and directed the rest of missiles harmlessly into outer space, of course. Easily.



> a 10x kameha , should be around 1 billion nuclear ....not even close in fact.



You don't have any proof for that, and Superman has taken much worse.

Do you know how much energy it would take to destroy a planet?


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## kentenko (Jun 29, 2006)

Wasn't there already a bloody comic with it oh yeah I HAVE ONE...


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## Shiron (Jun 29, 2006)

^Cross-overs are non-cannon. Thus, the Superman vs. Goku comic doesn't count.


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## Jin22 (Jun 29, 2006)

The Dragonball Universe is a very easy universe to gauge power. On the other hand there is the DC universe, with it being _extremely_ tricky at depicting a character's strength... 

Only people with alot of common sense and logic could attend a dissucssion such as this and make it reasonable(too much fanboyism for my taste now). I don't like to put too much into the thinking process anyway unless interested or  forced.  

Again Superman wins this battle. I'm just monitering now to see if anyone's gonna give ground(the Goku supporters to be exact).


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## cursemagician (Jun 29, 2006)

GOKU will beat him up


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 29, 2006)

You're going to have to elaborate.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 29, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Far away from him. Not in close proximity.
> 
> *And? that means nothing, your not able to follow faster than light movements period*.
> 
> ...



*If the planet blew up then Goku and everyone DIES!!! Why do you think he stopped the fight because the planet was being destroyed! Comic Book Guy,You really seriously lack Common Sense don't you? Don't worry you are not the only one in this forum mostly everyone here lacks it.*


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 29, 2006)

_And? that means nothing, your not able to follow faster than light movements period._

Physics and relavitity. Read it up.

_He dodges Ki blast that are faster than light, Piccolo and Master Roshi destroyed the moon in an instant!_

And yet, there are other examples which proves the ki blasts are _not_ faster than light, both in early and late DBZ.

_What garbage are you chatting now?_

Logic.

_Why would Goku punch a damn planet when they can not breath in Space? Oh I know because Comic Book Guy asks dumb questions because you lack common sense!_

Please. The argument here is that Goku's strength is less than that of Superman. Superman's range is in the billions, and can arguably demonlish the planet with his fists. Goku's strength is less than that, having shown to be nowhere near the billion range of Superman.

Get with the analogy and the argument. Do not presume.

_If the planet blew up then Goku and everyone DIES!!! Why do you think he stopped the fight because the planet was being destroyed! Comic Book Guy,You really seriously lack Common Sense don't you? Don't worry you are not the only one in this forum mostly everyone here lacks it._

And I hold my claim that I daresay you distort DBZ facts, and impose your interpretations over everything and as law.

We present you facts, evidence, and our supports of our side. You dismiss all of our evidence as irrelevant, and state your points over and over and *over* again. Likewise, everyone dismisses yuors, in your fashion. Me, I argue on, even if some of them sound ridiculously absurd.

By the way.

*Where is the scan of Super Otaku Magazine #297?*


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

> You really seriously lack Common Sense don't you? Don't worry you are not the only one in this forum mostly everyone here lacks it.



To a blind man, the whole world is dark.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 29, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _And? that means nothing, your not able to follow faster than light movements period._
> 
> Physics and relavitity. Read it up.
> 
> ...



1 more week I will have 4 interviews put up, they are still being worked on!


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

Goku has struggled with lifting things many times.

Not to mention, if an ant has never failed to lift a breadcrumb, a piece of grass, or a pebble, does that mean the ant can lift a house?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 29, 2006)

_You have no proof of Goku's true strength!_

We can make a reasonable estimate. In base form, he lifts 40 (400 in your case) tons. With the SSJ1 power-up, he lifts them effortless. This indicate that he has Class 100 strength.

But even with the SSJ power-ups, the maximum being 3, it still pales to Superman's _billion_ range. At best, it safe and reasonable to say taht Goku in SSJ3 would be able to lift hundreds of tons, if not thousands. A million is stretching it. BUt nonetheless, it pales to Superman's billion range.

_LOL when all your analogy lack Common sense _

And you lack the ability to interpret things correctly.

_You have presented no facts on DBZ, you only watched the damn DUB you do not know what you are talking about._

Language difference or not, I posted events to support what I say in argument. Certain events happen the same way regardless of language.

_You do not present any facts! that is why I repeat my statements because you keep chatting the same garbage over and over again._

Because you can never accept our facts, and thus repeat with what you say.

And you better put up the magazine covers of Super Otaku Magazine, since you claim to actually have it. Not a copy of the interview from the Daizenshuu; that's not what we're asking.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 29, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Goku has struggled with lifting things many times.
> 
> Not to mention, if an ant has never failed to lift a breadcrumb, a piece of grass, or a pebble, does that mean the ant can lift a house?



What has Goku struggled to lift Mike? I am curious to hear from the cheerleader who just feeds off other people's posts!:amazed

You know what I will give the strength to Superman, but it does not matter because you do not need overexcessive strength in Martial Arts! Goku is the better fighter and that is what this is a DAMN FIGHT! Not a lifting contest!


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## Endless Mike (Jun 29, 2006)

He struggled to lift the 40 tons before he went SSJ.

In one episode he struggled to lift some logs.

He struggled to lift the huge boulder that Freiza threw at him for a bit before he cut through it and came out the other side.

If you include GT, he struggled to lift a building and to lift part of a city.

And Goku's punches are too weak to even hurt Superman, he would just laugh at how weak they are and then KO Goku with one punch.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He struggled to lift the 40 tons before he went SSJ.
> 
> In one episode he struggled to lift some logs.
> *Damn you are on medication that never happened.*
> ...



You really are on medication! Superman does not even use that strength when he fights, it is obvious from the MANY ASS BEATINGS THAT he has taken his strength is overrated. Goku's Martial Arts is what is good in a combat fight and he is a better fighter than supes.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He struggled to lift the 40 tons before he went SSJ.
> 
> In one episode he struggled to lift some logs.
> *Damn you are on medication that never happened.*
> ...



You really are on medication! Superman does not even use that strength when he fights, it is obvious from the MANY ASS BEATINGS THAT he has taken his strength is overrated. Goku's Martial Arts is what is good in a combat fight and he is a better fighter than supes.


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## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

He had to power up and was visibly grunting and struggling when he lifted it.

And Freiza threw a huge boulder at Goku, if it was an island, it was a very small island.

And the log thing did happen, it happened when he was fishing or something.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He had to power up and was visibly grunting and struggling when he lifted it.
> 
> *He did not powerup that was just an Aura around him, and he was not struggling.*
> 
> ...



Nope did not happen.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

1. If there's an aura surrounding him, then he was powering up. Not to mention he was in SSJ4 mode. And he was grunting and sweating.

2. Looked like a boulder to me.

3. Yes it did, I remember it clearly. You probably just forgot.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Whatever Mike I am not going to argue about something as useless as that.

*I can post a scan where Superman and MartianManHunter struggled to lift a 5 ton tanker together!*


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## Keollyn (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You really are on medication! Superman does not even use that strength when he fights, it is obvious from the MANY ASS BEATINGS THAT he has taken his strength is overrated. Goku's Martial Arts is what is good in a combat fight and he is a better fighter than supes.



You sure have some nerve telling us that Superma got his ass beat many times when Goku's ass gets severely beaten pretty regularly. I mean, when's the last time he DIDN'T get his ass beat? And why does he always need help? Solo a fight Goku and then talk to Superman.

And let me not mention his death record...


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> You sure have some nerve telling us that Superma got his ass beat many times when Goku's ass gets severely beaten pretty regularly. I mean, when's the last time he DIDN'T get his ass beat? And why does he always need help? Solo a fight Goku and then talk to Superman.
> 
> And let me not mention his death record...



Damn I see your taking the same medication that mike takes.

Tell me the last time in DBZ when Goku got his ass kicked? Since you claim it was more than Supes...

I can name more deaths of Supes and talk about how Supes got his Ass beat more than Goku has ever have.


----------



## Keollyn (Jun 30, 2006)

Merge Boo beat his ass, didn't he? Or have you forgotten that...?

And by all means, name them. At least with Superman, he gets beat by people who are ACTUALLY strong. Goku gets beat because he lacks a brain.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Merge Boo beat his ass, didn't he? Or have you forgotten that...?
> 
> And by all means, name them. At least with Superman, he gets beat by people who are ACTUALLY strong. Goku gets beat because he lacks a brain.



You do not know what you are talking about?

Goku did not get his aas beat by Majin Buu he could have beat Kid Buu if he did not run out of energy!

I have named the many times Supes got his ass beat. read over the last 10 pages.

Goku is stronger and faster in combat! Supes looses.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_You do not know what you are talking about?

Goku did not get his aas beat by Majin Buu he could have beat Kid Buu if he did not run out of energy!_

He means Mystic Buu.

You can't even interpret the basics right. . .

_I have named the many times Supes got his ass beat. read over the last 10 pages._

Yes. And?

_Goku is stronger and faster in combat! Supes looses._

Stronger, no.

Faster? Debatable.

Decided? No.

You really think this topic is going to solve years worth of debate? Even I'm not that conceited.


----------



## Keollyn (Jun 30, 2006)

Did I say Kid Boo? I clearly remember typing Merge Boo. Kid Boo should have been nothing to Goku, but I guess he can't handle him either.

And I can name a shitload of times Goku has gotten his ass beat... and the times he died also. For someone who's suppose to be SOOO powerful, he sure does get beat alot. And please tell me when was the last time he SOLOed a fight?

You admit Superman is stronger and then turn around and say he isn't... You're not very consistent, are you?


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

If goku win all the fight 1st time , he can not progress as much as he has......

BUT , the incredible thing if u want is , that HEs getting stronger than anyone right after....hes limitless , his power is infinite


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_BUT , the incredible thing if u want is , that HEs getting stronger than anyone right after....hes limitless , his power is infinite_

Incorrect. If his power was truly that great in magnitude, the DBZ continuum would have break under such power.


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## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

Thats why toryama stopped DBZ , coz there is no limit...
U know , just to heal from big injuries give him twice his previous power , THIS fact (and we all know it) is the 100% proof there is no limit

Hes has been stronger than every , every ennemy he fought

btw i dont really like comics , but do u have any picture of superman , WIthout moving a finger , cause earthquake , everywhere on the planet , break everything , thunder , still without moving?

 second opening of Hunter x Hunter.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Thats why toryama stopped DBZ , coz there is no limit...
> U know , just to heal from big injuries give him twice his previous power , THIS fact (and we all know it) is the 100% proof there is no limit
> 
> Hes has been stronger than every , every ennemy he fought
> ...


First, I suggest you learn how to spell.

Second, DB DOES have limits, or do you think making reality collapse and thus exterminating life does not matter to Goku?


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

Sorry im not english 

There is no limit , or prove there is , as far as i know there is one truth , when a sayan is almost dead and recover , hes twice as strong , and each new strong ennemy , goku is getting also stronger....thats all


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## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

But the thing is, Saiyins die all the time.

And I'm not English either, so that's a bull shit excuse.


----------



## Gunners (Jun 30, 2006)

> But the thing is, Saiyins die all the time.
> 
> And I'm not English either, so that's a bull shit excuse.



Shut the hell up, English isn't not his first language, neither is it yours, you adapted better, that simple.

Sajjins can die yes, but i think Goku would win this battle, against normal Superman i will give it to Goku each and everytime.


----------



## Keollyn (Jun 30, 2006)

Any language not being your first isn't an excuse to butcher the language...


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## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> But the thing is, Saiyins die all the time.



We were talking about the unlimited power , i dont really care if goku dies a lot


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> We were talking about the unlimited power , i dont really care if goku dies a lot


Battles tend to end when one of the participants dies.


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Battles tend to end when one of the participants dies.


Yup  (rip) superman


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

I doubt it, Superman can take far more punishment than Goku, especially Prime.


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

I doubt it


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Do you even know what Superman Prime is capable of?


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

not as much as u know , but a little...

still , i think the best goku is a lot stronger and IF GOKU ISNT AS STRONG ( thing i doubt)  its will be the same u know...

Goku loses , goku train , goku pown superman

that is the way goku is , thats all , u can not defeat him for ever


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

But that's the thing, how do you reckon Goku will revive himself with out losing the match?


----------



## DeepThought (Jun 30, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> Goku loses , goku train , goku pown superman



So you admit it? Goku loses!


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> But that's the thing, how do you reckon Goku will revive himself with out losing the match?



He wont die 

1ST i think he will win ...

and if he lose , he can teleport himself to namek or another planet() , train , and come back kick superman ass

THats whats so great about goku , no limits...


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> He wont die
> 
> 1ST i think he will win ...
> 
> ...


You've already stated he's lost.


----------



## kombak (Jun 30, 2006)

No read again

I said Hes gonna win , and if by any chance he loses , this is a 0.00000000001% rate  , hes gonna train asap and kick Sup'ass far away


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

kombak said:
			
		

> No read again
> 
> I said Hes gonna win , and if by any chance he loses , this is a 0.00000000001% rate  , hes gonna train asap and kick Sup'ass far away


You really don't know how statistics work, do you?

And if he loses, HE LOSES, that's just that.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> First, I suggest you learn how to spell.


That was quite uncalled for, we're not discussing his skill in english, but Goku vs. Superman.


			
				Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Second, DB DOES have limits, or do you think making reality collapse and thus exterminating life does not matter to Goku?


Can you prove that this would happen? No, you cannot, because there is no proof that it would. Also, DBZ is a comic, anything the writer wants is reality. Goku is not from the same world as us and our rules don't really apply to him.


			
				Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> But the thing is, Saiyins die all the time.


That really isn't the question at hand, the question was: Is Saiyan power unlimited? The answer is: yes it is, because unless you die, you come back with at least double strength each and every time this happens: you fight and ALMOST get killed, then recover from it. There is no quantity-limit to how many times this can happen, and therefor Saiyan power is unlimited. Question answered, discussion over.


			
				Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Battles tend to end when one of the participants dies.


Well, duh...


			
				Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> I doubt it, Superman can take far more punishment than Goku, especially Prime.


We're not discussing Superman Prime here, so just leave that out of the picture, please. You're just being retarded by going off topic.


----------



## Shiron (Jun 30, 2006)

>.>

There is a limit in DBZ for how strong a Saiyan can get. How do we know there is one? Simple: Gohan. Remember when the Surpreme Kai (or was it Old Kai... can't remember) unlocked all of Gohan's potential? When he did that, he made Gohan as strong as he would ever be (AKA Mystic Gohan). Now, if a Saiyan's power is truly "limitless", then he wouldn't have been able to do this. He would have tried, but would have failed, and noticed that Gohan's potential is limitless. However, he did manage to unleash all of Gohan's potential. Thus, a Saiyan's power is not limitless (this is probably due to things like... them having an actual life-span and only being able to train so much before they die of old-age) and there is an actual limit to how strong they can get.

And here in the Outskirts Battledome, it doesn't matter what would happen the 5 billionth time they fought (unless the first post says that's what the fight is). We only care about what would happen the first time they fight. So, if Goku looses the first time they fight, he looses. It doesn't matter what would happen after they fight each other several years, only the first fight matters, and that is what this thread is about.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Not to mention that you can't just extrapolate power infinitely into the future. You have to go with what has been shown in canon.

Or else I could say that in the future Superman will merge with the Presence and become omnipotent.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> >.>
> 
> There is a limit in DBZ for how strong a Saiyan can get. How do we know there is one? Simple: Gohan. Remember when the Surpreme Kai (or was it Old Kai... can't remember) unlocked all of Gohan's potential? When he did that, he made Gohan as strong as he would ever be (AKA Mystic Gohan). Now, if a Saiyan's power is truly "limitless", then he wouldn't have been able to do this. He would have tried, but would have failed, and noticed that Gohan's potential is limitless. However, he did manage to unleash all of Gohan's potential. Thus, a Saiyan's power is not limitless (this is probably due to things like... them having an actual life-span and only being able to train so much before they die of old-age) and there is an actual limit to how strong they can get.


If gohan were to be beaten up and almost killed, his power would increase again, that's a fact in dragonball, potential power is how much power he can have at the moment, his strength would still increase if he recovered from near death. Also, if there is a limit to Gohans power, it would be his human side hindering it, not his saiyan side.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Pinkaugust said:
			
		

> That was quite uncalled for, we're not discussing his skill in english, but Goku vs. Superman.
> *And it was already done with until you decided to bring it up, just now. =]*
> 
> Can you prove that this would happen? No, you cannot, because there is no proof that it would. Also, DBZ is a comic, anything the writer wants is reality. Goku is not from the same world as us and our rules don't really apply to him.
> ...


Endless Mike and Meijin no Kori win.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Endless Mike and Meijin no Kori win.


When did I go off-topic? The thing about the saiyan power was about Goku's power, so it has to do with this debate. About superman prime, it clearly doesn't say Superman Prime, is says Superman, meaning the ordinary Superman, no one else. end of discussion.

I ask again: When did I go off-topic? Who's the hypocrite?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

I don't know about the others, but I've been using Post - Crisis Superman in the debate so far, since using Pre - Crisis, 1 million, or Prime would just be overkill.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I don't know about the others, but I've been using Post - Crisis Superman in the debate so far, since using Pre - Crisis, 1 million, or Prime would just be overkill.


Then your arguments are null....


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

What are you talking about?

We are talking about Post - Crisis Superman here, those are the feats most people have been using.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> What are you talking about?
> 
> We are talking about Post - Crisis Superman here, those are the feats most people have been using.


Is that the ordinary, real Superman, then? I'm not too familiar with the hips and changes in marvel, I just know about most of the heroes and their abilities...

Anyhow, I won't be here for a while, but please don't count me out of the discussion yet.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Since when is Superman marvel? To my knowledge, he's DC.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Of course he's DC.

Honestly, Pinkaugust, you shouldn't even be in this argument if you don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

He's somewhat comparable to Phenomenol, I suppose.

Superman still FTW.


----------



## Shiron (Jun 30, 2006)

Pinkaugust said:
			
		

> If gohan were to be beaten up and almost killed, his power would increase again, that's a fact in dragonball, potential power is how much power he can have at the moment, his strength would still increase if he recovered from near death. Also, if there is a limit to Gohans power, it would be his human side hindering it, not his saiyan side.


 If that's true, then the Surpreme Kai lied about unlocking all of Gohan's potential and what he did was double it. When he unlocked Gohan's potential, he unlocked it all. If he could get even stronger and continue to get stronger normally, what he did really can't be considered to be "unlocking all of Gohan's potential." However, since that's what he said he did, it's what he did. 

Notice that after this happens (Gohan getting his potential unlocked), however, Gohan doesn't do any more training in the series and nobody ever comments on him getting stronger than he was after his training on the Surpreme Kai's planet. So, you can't really prove that Gohan could continue to get stronger after he had all of his potential unlocked; since there's no evidence that he ever got stronger than he was after he left the Surpreme Kai's planet.

And I wouldn't be so sure about the human side hindering it. After all, it was stated somewhere that half-saiyans have more potential than normal ones. Not that this matters though. Neither Saiyans, nor humans are immortal in DBZ (unless they wish for immortality). Thus, both eventually die from old age. Hence, there is a limit to the amount of time they have to train/be defeated and recover, ect., so there truly would be a limit to how strong they could become in their lives; seen as they are not immortal (without any Dragonball wishes). So, because they are mortal, there is a limit to what they can do under normal circumstances (normal circumstances means no wishes or stuff like that) and there is a limit to how strong they can become.

And as Endless Mike said...


			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not to mention that you can't just extrapolate power infinitely into the future. You have to go with what has been shown in canon.
> 
> Or else I could say that in the future Superman will merge with the Presence and become omnipotent.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_Not to mention that you can't just extrapolate power infinitely into the future. _

Bingo.

Mystic Gohan is the maximum potential unlocked.

To clarify, there have been many versions of Superman, Clark Kent. They are as follows

-Earth-2 (Golden Age) Superman
-Earth-1 (Silver Age aka Pre-Crisis) Superman
-post-Crisis Superman (current Supeman)
-Electro Superman
-Superboy Prime
-Superman Prime

Superman Million is a future descendant of Superman, from DC One Million. He's not Clark Kent (that's Prime).

We're discussing post-Crisis Superman.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh, and I just came up with a really easy way for Superman to win:

First, trick Goku by making it seem like he's going to engage in a normal HtH fight, and when Goku punches him, grab his arm and immediately fly at lightspeed or faster straight into outer space.

Either Goku will get dragged with him and die of suffocation, or Goku's arm will be ripped off and he'll bleed to death.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Of course he's DC.
> 
> Honestly, Pinkaugust, you shouldn't even be in this argument if you don't know what you're talking about.


Well, seeing as you don't know your DBZ properly, I guess I'm still ok, here..

I only assumed he's Marvel because he's in the Marvel Universe... You said he faced Spider-man and that it was Canon, that = marvel to me...


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Marvel and DC cooperate to have crossovers sometimes.

However, none of them are canon except for JLA/Avengers.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jun 30, 2006)

well then, why did you bring it into discussion then? what really matters is the real superman, not marvel-crossover non-canon superman. I think you shouldn't have brought it into discussion before, as you seem to dislike anything non-canon..


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Since when did I say anything about a Superman/Spiderman crossover?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

Yeah, JLA/Avengers is canon. The Krona Egg has been seen in JLA, and the 2006 Official Marvel Handbooks confirm JLA/Avengers to be in continuity, mentioned on Grandmaster's bio. The Grandmaster manipulated powerful artifacts of the Marvel universe (Infinity Gauntlet, Casket of Ancient Winters, Wand of Watoomb, etc.) and other artifiacts from a *D*ivergent *C*osmos. Clever. . .


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Comic Book Guy He means Mystic Buu.

That is a fused Character a being who could destroy the universe. Super Buu 3 will touch Supes and he dies! So what is your point?[/B said:
			
		

> Stronger, no.
> 
> *Yes Goku is Stronger! Superman and MartianManHunter struggled to lift a 5 ton tanker TOGETHER! in JLA.*
> 
> ...



Goku wins these debates all the time.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Only in forums dominated by ignorant fanboys.

On all the forums I've been to, the score is:

1. CBR - Undecided
2. SHC - Undecided
3. Gaia Online - Superman wins
4. Spacebattles - Superman wins
5. Stardestroyer - Superman wins
6. ASMB - Superman wins

Going by chess terms, that's 5 - 1 in Superman's favor.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> *Only in forums dominated by ignorant fanboys.*
> 
> On all the forums I've been to, the score is:
> 
> ...



Mind if I answer why Superman won all of those battles...

*


			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		


			Only in forums dominated by ignorant fanboys.
		
Click to expand...

*


			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> LOL!!!


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh, the irony of your post, Phenomenol.

Just a quick question, between Beyonder and Goku at the highest powerlevel ever shown in manga or anime, which of the two would be victorious?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Depends on which Beyonder you are talking about?

Oh and by the way this is a Superman and Goku thread.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

I know that, m'boy, but logic and reason do not see to leave an imprint on your precious little mind, so I thought I would let my curiousity speak for a moment.

And for the hell of it, let's use one from another thread. Goku vs Pre-Retcon Beyonder.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

And just to help out, here's a quote from Secret Wars II:

(Beyonder, to Molecule Man): You've gotten better, I see. That last blast was enough to destroy several billion universes. Of course it was no threat to me. *laughs*


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> I know that, m'boy, but logic and reason do not see to leave an imprint on your precious little mind, so I thought I would let my curiousity speak for a moment.
> 
> And for the hell of it, let's use one from another thread. Goku vs Pre-Retcon Beyonder.



Tough talk for a fool who has yet to post a single challenging argument in this forum, you sure can talk alot. 

Goku wins then! Supes id beaten...


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Tough talk for a fool who has yet to post a single challenging argument in this forum, you sure can talk alot.
> 
> Goku wins then! Supes id beaten...


My dear boy, I have over five thousand posts in this forum, I doubt you can back up that argument by truthfully stating you have read them all.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh, and no one has yet even tried to refute my new winning strategy for Superman I posted a few posts back.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Oh, and no one has yet even tried to refute my new winning strategy for Superman I posted a few posts back.



Superman's winning strategy? What...


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Am I to understand that by not replying to my previous post, you admit defeat?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Superman's winning strategy? What...



Post number 539.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_That is a fused Character a being who could destroy the universe._

Please. That's anime filler, and you know it.

_Super Buu 3 will touch Supes and he dies! So what is your point?_

Even I don't exaggerate that much.

_Yes Goku is Stronger! Superman and MartianManHunter struggled to lift a 5 ton tanker TOGETHER! in JLA._

And yet, Superman once hoisted the Great Pyramid of Egypt over his head effortlessly. I can recite many other strength examples that contradict that particular JLA showing of strength. Different writers.

That said, Goku is still weaker than Superman strength-wise.

_No he is faster than Supes!_

Debatable.

_Goku wins these debates all the time._

Then why is that everytime this kind of debate is mentioned, it still goes on?

It's ultimately undecided.

_Goku wins then! Supes id beaten..._

Please. In your self-conceited and haughty mind, it's over.

To add to those boards, the GamaFAQS board also is another place where the Goku vs. Superman topics use to frequent prior to. . . what us posters decided to do with it.

In all my experiences, the GameFAQS comic boards is probably one of the foremost informed boards of comic books and characters on the net.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

So who won over there?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

> Comic Book Guy] Please. That's anime filler, and you know it.
> 
> *This is a Anime/Manga battledome! deal with it. He can destroy a universe..*
> 
> ...



It is still undecided in many boards this battle.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh yes, because lightspeed is so fucking slow ass, right?

And Mike, CBG won, in more ways that just the thread.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

I meant who won between Goku and Superman at GameFAQs


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_So who won over there?_

Ultimately, Superman. However, there was a huge war between the GameFAQS Comic Board against the GameFAQS Dragon Ball Board when the topic first appeared.

There were scans galore on both sides, from DB manga to the Daizenshuu's, from comic book to Secret Files and writer interviews. Our number of scans were not even close to the amount of scans that the Comic Board posted; it was ridiculous to what feats that Superman pulled off when I first read through them. And the DB side had their own; manga scans, Daizenshuu scans, episode excerpts. The works. Eventually, fanboyism ran amuck on both sides, and everything went out of control into a biggest flame war I've ever encountered.

Over time, some of the DB board actually accepted that Superman would be more likely to win than Goku, once they read through the feats, issues, scans, etc. However, the DB fanboys (no offense) refused to accept, and the flame war continued on both sides.

Eventually, the GameFAQS administrator himself came in, and imposed multiple bans on several users, and a warning to never start another topic again. That was a long while ago. . .

Nowadays, whenever the topic comes up again (by a newbie poster, who can be forgiven), everyone just treats the topics as a social topic.

_This is a Anime/Manga battledome! deal with it. He can destroy a universe.._

It's non-canon, and you know it. Hell, the majority of what we posted for evidence is canon.

And where did it said the actual DB continuum was threatened? The best I remember was that the dimensions were threatened under his tantrum.

_I could say the same about Goku!_

Where in the DBZ series did Goku manage to contradict his 40 ton (400 in your case) base strength capability?

_Supes still struggled with a 5 ton tankler along with MartianManhunter which is very weak! _

And Superman has many times contradicted this showing of strength. I can recite a few examples, should you ask.

_No wrong, Goku pushed two mountains apart and crushed the whole thing to pieces._

Where in DB or DBZ?

Plus, Superman and mountains have a long history together. . . where the mountain is usually hoisted above Superman quite effortlessly (save for Byrne's weak Superman, post COIE).

_Superman is weaker than Goku! _

Please. It's the other way around, and you know it, yet deny it still.

_Please, this is not debatable everyone knows Goku is faster than slow ass Supes._

Everyone? Please. If it was decided on who's faster than who, then I would not say debatable.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

I know what he's talking about with the mountains.

It was in the Kid Buu saga, and they weren't mountains, they were two halfs of a rock outcropping that was about 50 - 60 feet tall, 150 feet long, and 50 feet wide. He pushed them apart in SSJ2 mode (struggling as he did so) then crushed them.

However, it doesn't matter, since that scene never happened in the manga.

In the manga, he went directly to SSJ3 to fight Kid Buu, he didn't bother with SSJ2


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _So who won over there?_
> 
> Ultimately, Superman. However, there was a huge war between the GameFAQS Comic Board against the GameFAQS Dragon Ball Board when the topic first appeared.
> 
> ...



the horror thr horror, cant breath, *faints*

2 hours later

wow im happy that did not happen here


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I know what he's talking about with the mountains.
> 
> It was in the Kid Buu saga, and they weren't mountains, they were two halfs of a rock outcropping that was about 50 - 60 feet tall, 150 feet long, and 50 feet wide. He pushed them apart in SSJ2 mode (struggling as he did so) then crushed them.



*Link to sig*

LOL struggling? Where did you get that from?  Because he was screaming? Wow thats some proof there The mountain was reduced to RUBBLE so he obviosuly wasn't struggling with it.

Superman struggled with 5 tons.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Here's a hint: Yelling, with a pained expression on your face and your muscles all bulged out in tension, is struggling.

Not to mention you completely ignored the part about that scene not even being in the manga.

Oh, and Goku once got hit on the head with a rock (while in SSJ form) and was hurt.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

i would not call that a mt. i will give u a tall hill at best


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Here's a hint: Yelling, with a pained expression on your face and your muscles all bulged out in tension, is struggling.
> 
> Not to mention you completely ignored the part about that scene not even being in the manga.
> 
> Oh, and Goku once got hit on the head with a rock (while in SSJ form) and was hurt.




well thats all they really do in dbz is scream, so i dont know if he was struggling

and if you want to talk about weakness, goku was pwned by a fish, while he was a ssj, but later on goku had to go and eat it in revenge


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Here's a hint: Yelling, with a pained expression on your face and your muscles all bulged out in tension, is struggling.
> 
> *Wrong. The mountain and that entire area was reduced to rubble. Struggling does not make that kind of results.*
> 
> ...



Wow so Goku got hit on the head with a small rock, well that must prove it then . Its not like Freiza threw an island at him on namek is it. Its not like the Z warriors don't go flying into rocks every 5 minutes or anything. Its not Goku fell off a cliff as a baby and yet still survived. WEAK


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

fish>superman>goku

i mean it's easy as 1,2,3


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wow so Superman had trouble lifting a tanker, well that must prove it then . Its not like Mageddon fired a galaxy - destroying warhead at him is it. Its not like the JLA don't go flying through planets and taking planet - destroying attacks every 5 minutes or anything. Its not Superman easily survived the blast of an exploding moon when he was inside of it. WEAK



Fixed.

Oh, and BTW, if the anime contradicts the manga, the manga is used, because it is higher canon than the anime.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

your logic is flawless


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Fixed.
> Wow so Superman had trouble lifting a tanker, well that must prove it then . Its not like Mageddon fired a galaxy - destroying warhead at him is it. Its not like the JLA don't go flying through planets and taking planet - destroying attacks every 5 minutes or anything. Its not Superman easily survived the blast of an exploding moon when he was inside of it. WEAK



Endless Mike What Garbage are you chatting? 

Did you draw all of these assumptions from the label ASS!


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

there is no need for bad words now


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Actually, I just rewrote what you said to point out your hypocrisy.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

Superman struggled with *5* tons.

Ha. Now that destroys every single credibility you having about Superman.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike No you wrote lies. What you put in their is false information. It is Bull**** Period.


----------



## escamoh (Jun 30, 2006)

Why is SSJ4 allowed in this topic? Are we going by the anime or the manga?


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> Why is SSJ4 allowed in this topic? Are we going by the anime or the manga?



to give goku an extra powerup, even though gt has shown that dbz mytic gohan is better then ssj4


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

O RLY?

Try reading this:



They got some things wrong (for example, Goku's IT is faster than light) but all the Superman feats are true.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> O RLY?
> 
> Try reading this:
> 
> ...




ok "owl" mike      

like u said almost all true besides IT


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Can we get back on topic here.
> 
> Goku vs. Superman who wins?



superman FTW


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> O RLY?
> 
> Try reading this:
> 
> ...



That is such a load of Crap.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Yet you have not even attempted to refute any of it.

(BTW it's the second paragraph that's important, the one about Post - Crisis Superman).


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Superman.

Especially after that excellent link Mike provided.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Superman struggled with 5 tons.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Superman.
> 
> Especially after that excellent link Mike provided.




u mean "owl" mike 

but seriously how can u defend goku


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

By being a mindless fanboy? Ignoring logic and reason usually helps, too.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

Reading the Pre-Crisis feats gave me a laugh. Thank god for COIE. . .

_Goku wins because he is cooler. Wrong. Nobody cares who you think is "cool." Thats both subjective and irrelevant to this fight, as a good friend of mine pointed out. Also, Superman has been around longer, is more recognizable, and is even more popular in Japan than Goku. _

Well, Superman's literally iconic.

_Superman knows many forms of martial arts, and how to neutralize them, and he has thousands of years of combat experience. _

I can vouch for the 100 years of experience. The martial arts background is also true, although I'm not sure what particular martial arts training has he undergone. Still looking into that.

_There are ki users in the DCU_

This intrigued me the most.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> By being a mindless fanboy? Ignoring logic and reason usually helps, too.




true


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_That is such a load of Crap._

Sure. Tell that to the actual issues that has the feats.

Or tell that to Joe Casey, a Superman writer.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I don't know much about DC, but are their any martial artists that use chi or what ever to influence their opponents?


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _That is such a load of Crap._
> 
> Sure. Tell that to the actual issues that has the feats.
> 
> Or tell that to Joe Casey, a Superman writer.



do u have his number:Rezno>_<


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Wrong Fool's that was completely a fucking Superman fanboy that provided that info. He did not even know a damn thing about Goku and Dragonball. All of his info was Bogus even about Superman. He said that *Superman can run even with the fucking Flash Get the hell out of hear, which is all I needed to hear* because Endless Mike does not even know a damn thing about Superman or goku! Neither does that damn poster.

Not only do you try to use someone else's post, the poster is terribly wrong  yet you try to act as if that poster knows what the fuck he is talking about.
Endless Mike you got problems serious problems.


Endless Mike have you even read a single comic in your life?


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Wrong Fool's that was completely a fucking Superman fanboy that provided that info. He did not even know a damn thing about Goku and Dragonball. All of his info was Bogus even about Superman. He said that *Superman can run even with the fucking Flash Get the hell out of hear, which is all I needed to hear* because Endless Mike does not even know a damn thing about Superman or goku! Neither does that damn poster.
> 
> Not only do you try to use someone else's post, the poster is terribly wrong  yet you try to act as if that poster knows what the fuck he is talking about.
> Endless Mike you got problems serious problems.
> ...



superman can almost run even with the flash

and please inform us when u have actual prove that goku can win besides he knows martal arts


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> *superman can almost run even with the flash*
> 
> and please inform us when u have actual prove that goku can win besides he knows martal arts



You have already prooven that you do not know what you are talking about.

Oh and pertaining to the Martial Arts I have posted a number of proofs that Goku can smack Supes. Martial arts is one of them which you or anyone else has yet to refute.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

I doubt Superman 'ran' with The Flash, more like he flew with him.

Phenomenol, Endless Mike knows a lot more about comics than you ever will, so instead of insulting him, respect the man and have a decent discussion for once. You know, one involving logic and facts, rather than mindless tripe and biased inventions of your small mind.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You have already prooven that you do not know what you are talking about.
> 
> Oh and pertaining to the Martial Arts I have posted a number of proofs that Goku can smack Supes. Martial arts is one of them which you or anyone else has yet to refute.




what part of superman knows martal arts dont u understand??

or do u just choose to ignore it


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_Well, I don't know much about DC, but are their any martial artists that use chi or what ever to influence their opponents?_

Pre-Crisis Judomaster comes to my mind.

And no, I don't have Casey's number.

_Wrong Fool's that was completely a fucking Superman fanboy that provided that info._

Fanboy or not, regardless, the majority of the feats are true and backed up with references to the actual issues. And I can vouch for a few of them.

_He did not even know a damn thing about Goku and Dragonball._

And you do, oh mighty conceited one?

_All of his info was Bogus even about Superman._

Deny, deny, deny.

With the majority of the feats referenced by the actual issues? I doubt you can disprove what has been printed on millions to billions of paper and ink.

_He said that Superman can run even with the fucking Flash Get the hell out of hear, which is all I needed to hear_

You can't even read right. It said PRE-CRISIS SUPERMAN. Not post-Crisis.

_because Endless Mike does not even know a damn thing about Superman or goku! Neither does that damn poster._

The poster did his research well in the feats. A few mistakes here, but please. You can't disprove the majority of those feats.

_Not only do you try to use someone else's post, the poster is terribly wrong yet you try to act as if that poster knows what the fuck he is talking about._

Please. As if you're the foremost expert of everything. What made you credible in denouncing other people?

_Endless Mike you got problems serious problems._

And you have serious issues with acceptance, recognizing, and denial.

_Endless Mike have you even read a single comic in your life?_

I'll refrain from making biting comments.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> I doubt Superman 'ran' with The Flash, more like he flew with him.
> 
> Phenomenol, Endless Mike knows a lot more about comics than you ever will, so instead of insulting him, respect the man and have a decent discussion for once. You know, one involving logic and facts, rather than mindless tripe and biased inventions of your small mind.



Look who is talking Maggot Brain. For someone who does not even post a single challenging argument. All you do is feed off of others posts and cheerlead on the damn sidelines.

PS *Get off Mikes Nuts*, if he knows so much about Comics and Superman he would not have posted someone else's posts and then calls them fact.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

here


and Phenomenol no more insults


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_Look who is talking Maggot Brain. For someone who does not even post a single challenging argument. All you do is feed off of others posts and cheerlead on the damn sidelines._

As if you're better.

_PS Get off Mikes Nuts, if he knows so much about Comics and Superman he would not have posted someone else's posts and then calls them fact._

Please. The feats ARE FACT.

This is a time when I wished I save some arguments from the war back on GameFAQS. . . some turned the tide on both sides, but the majority being with Superman.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Superman was trained in martial arts by Mongul's son, I think.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

And.. I have read those, the qustion is did you read them?

I can post the scan from JLA where *supes says he's NOT faster than light when asked to outrun a zeta beam. I still maintain that supes top speed is 99% light speed*


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## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

well the superman v flash comics say different


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## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

And I still maintain that you are an idiot.

As I, and many other people here, have explained over and over, Superman can travel many many times faster than lightspeed, he just consciously does not do so while in earth's atmosphere, because if he did it would kill everybody on earth.

He has done so many times in space, for example in the Lex 2000 special.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_I can post the scan from JLA where supes says he's NOT faster than light when asked to outrun a zeta beam. I still maintain that supes top speed is 99% light speed_

Post it. I want this to be clarified.


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## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _I can post the scan from JLA where supes says he's NOT faster than light when asked to outrun a zeta beam. I still maintain that supes top speed is 99% light speed_
> 
> Post it. I want this to be clarified.


Ditto.

Phenomenol posting scans, that'll be something new.

Unless his scanner is 'broken' or something of the sort.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And I still maintain that you are an idiot.
> 
> As I, and many other people here, have explained over and over, Superman can travel many many times faster than lightspeed, he just consciously does not do so while in earth's atmosphere, because if he did it would kill everybody on earth.
> 
> He has done so many times in space, for example in the Lex 2000 special.



Also you act as if those feats help Superman in battle when they do not.

For every "speed feat" I can post Superman getting walloped by someone slow as ass like the Shaggy man.:amazed


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## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

are u going to post the scan or not?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

How about you post the JLA scan where Supes can't outrace a Zeta Beam?

That said. . . do you even know what a Zeta Beam _is_?


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> How about you post the JLA scan where Supes can't outrace a Zeta Beam?
> 
> That said. . . do you even know what a Zeta Beam _is_?



its a z shaped beam, what a dumb question


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> How about you post the JLA scan where Supes can't outrace a Zeta Beam?
> 
> That said. . . do you even know what a Zeta Beam _is_?



I will I am not at home right now I am at a meeting!

Rubbish, Flash was training supes in the desert and supes only manage to go around four times the speed of sound on foot. He's NOWHERE near light speed on foot


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I will I am not at home right now I am at a meeting!


Figures!


----------



## escamoh (Jun 30, 2006)

I wanna see that scan Phenomonal was talking about...

It seems like these Superman comics have a lot of contradictions...is it 'cause a lot of different artists have thier own version of Superman?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_I will I am not at home right now I am at a meeting!_

This begs the question. . . how are you replying so fast in response to our posts?

And countach, I was asking Phenom, not you. I apologize for the confusion.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

What part of "If he runs fast enough he will fuck up the earth" do you not understand?

Flash can get away with it because of the Speedforce.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_It seems like these Superman comics have a lot of contradictions...is it 'cause a lot of different artists have thier own version of Superman?_

It's writers.

Every writer has their way in how powerful Superman would be. Although, there is a medium in which to all somewhat adhere to.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

maggot brain you do not know anything about this fight. Would you stop cheerleading and stop talking about stuff that you do not know.

I am right here in a football meeting using my teammates laptop.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol is playing a card game.

I'll give you a hint, it includes something called 'bluffing'.


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

*enters Phenomenol's house, goes to his room opens the door to seen the room covered in dbz wallpaper, walks in and trips on the 25' goku plush toy.  Goes to the comp. and realizes it's the one of a kind dbz goku speed 8000.(it runs windows) i go to the dresser and open it. I am stunded at what i see superman underware. I knew it, undeniable proof that Phenomenol believes superman is better then goku*

what a trip


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

Regardless Phenom. . . do you know what exactly is a Zeta Beam and how it works?


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

@ Comic Book Guy
i was jokeing about the zeta beam


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## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

I will post the scans As soon as possible. Oh ComicBook Guy knows what exacly I am talking about. He knows the information I post is true. You other fools know nothing because you don't know anything about these two characters.

All you other poster wanabee's get it through your heads ONLY COMIC BOOK GUY IS A THREAT!!!!! HE IS MY ONLY CHALLENGE ALL OF YOU JUST FEED OFF OF HIS POSTS!

The rest of you begone with your nonsesne


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Translation: I want a one - on - one debate because then maybe I won't get my ass kicked so badly!


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## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I will post the scans As soon as possible. Oh ComicBook Guy knows what exacly I am talking about. He knows the information I post is true. You other fools know nothing because you don't know anything about these two characters.
> 
> All you other poster wanabee's get it through your heads ONLY COMIC BOOK GUY IS A THREAT!!!!! HE IS MY ONLY CHALLENGE ALL OF YOU JUST FEED OFF OF HIS POSTS!
> 
> The rest of you begone with your nonsesne



so do u know what a zeta beam is or not


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## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

Superman states that he cannot fly faster than light and Flash needs to step up and lend him speed to rescue innocents before being struck by a Zeta Beam. This, however, makes no sense as we have seen Superman go faster than light, in context it makes perfect sense... *Superman CAN exceed light but NOT while carrying the innocents he means to rescue (without turning them to cinder).* So when Flash lends him speed, he is not only increasing Superman's speed but imparting to him the speedster aura that allows them to carry people at high speeds with no harm to them. That Superman needs this implies that he lacks it.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

Back on topic please!

Tell me how is Superman going to defeat Goku?


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

by punching him in the face and giving him major brain anurisums, in turn caseing the body to go limp and die


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## Suzumebachi (Jun 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Back on topic please!
> 
> Tell me how is Superman going to defeat Goku?



By killing him.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 30, 2006)

_By killing him._

Usually, that's how battles are decided. One person is either incapacitated, K.O.ed, or killed. Or, if there is a ring, a ring-out.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 30, 2006)

Or by using my strategy.

Again, I direct you to post 539 of this thread.


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## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

539 brings back some good memories, what a post


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## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Oh, and I just came up with a really easy way for Superman to win:
> 
> First, trick Goku by making it seem like he's going to engage in a normal HtH fight, and when Goku punches him, grab his arm and immediately fly at lightspeed or faster straight into outer space.
> 
> Either Goku will get dragged with him and die of suffocation, or Goku's arm will be ripped off and he'll bleed to death.


Incase anyone missed it.


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## Phenomenol (Jun 30, 2006)

How does Superman plane on touching Goku, heat vision is not going to work, just throwing a random punch is not going to work. Supes has no technique or skills. Superman is facing a martial artist that he won't be able to touch. Goku will speed blitz Superman's ass all day.


----------



## Aruarian (Jun 30, 2006)

Even though Superman's reaction time is lower than Goku's?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jun 30, 2006)

Read the post above you


----------



## Countach (Jun 30, 2006)

superman knows martal arts, hes faster then goku and stronger, not to mention gokus punchs cant hurt superman, so you got any other  ideas


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## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

I remember a comic where Superman talked with a bunch of other JLA members and they had a whole conversation in the split second before an alien laser beam hit the earth.


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## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I remember a comic where Superman talked with a bunch of other JLA members and they had a whole conversation in the split second before an alien laser beam hit the earth.




thanks thats nice to know


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## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> superman knows martal arts, hes faster then goku and stronger, not to mention gokus punchs cant hurt superman, so you got any other  ideas



Damn, you just don't have a clue! 

You see why from hear on out I will ignore your posts. Go reread from page 10 on up then come talk to me. Matter of fact all of you need to read from pages 10 and up.


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## Bullet (Jul 1, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> *enters Phenomenol's house, goes to his room opens the door to seen the room covered in dbz wallpaper, walks in and trips on the 25' goku plush toy.  Goes to the comp. and realizes it's the one of a kind dbz goku speed 8000.(it runs windows) i go to the dresser and open it. I am stunded at what i see superman underware. I knew it, undeniable proof that Phenomenol believes superman is better then goku*
> 
> what a trip



 

Nice one!


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## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

just because you choose to ignore all of superman's obvious physical feats that are more impressive then gokus doesent mean they don't apply to the fight.

you have to face it superman will beat goku *Get over it!!!!!!*


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## General Shino (Jul 1, 2006)

Goku, the real question is how long superman would last, 5 seconds TOPS


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> Goku, the real question is how long superman would last, 5 seconds TOPS



wow, just wow


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## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> Goku, the real question is how long superman would last, 5 seconds TOPS



Have you read a Superman comic?

Like, ever?


----------



## General Shino (Jul 1, 2006)

Sorry, Superman isnt that stronger, faster then a speeding bullet? come on


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> Sorry, Superman isnt that stronger, faster then a speeding bullet? come on




u have to be kidding, right?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> Sorry, Superman isnt that stronger, faster then a speeding bullet? come on


There are multiple incarnations of Superman, actually. And the one used here is certainly faster than a speeding bullet.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> Goku, the real question is how long superman would last, 5 seconds TOPS


 On the contrary. Superman would be the one who would win. It would help if you read some of the posts here to know that. But, if you don't want to do that, this is a good substitute, and should give you an idea of what the comic-book Superman is like:


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_I remember a comic where Superman talked with a bunch of other JLA members and they had a whole conversation in the split second before an alien laser beam hit the earth._

Yeah, they managed to come up with a plan with a super-fast conversation. I can remember Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter there. I'm not sure about Wally though. . .

Here. This may be arguable, but it pertains to Superman's reflex-speed.

Remember that 'racing a photon to a target' bit? That's REFLEX-WISE.



And if you ask, what was fast enough to elude Superman's reaction time? Well. . .

Imagine something more massive than the Death Star. _That_ would be the object the League just witnessed in this. The same contraption that came in, shot a spike through Earth, and left in a ridiculous speed that 'outraces a photon'.

To expand upon the scan above

This is the ship heading to the planet.



Here's the insanely HUGE machine, with the spike already through the Earth. Be sure to click it once to get more details on the size:



And the League's reaction. This is the full scan from th photon reflex bit from above:



I don't like using this bit of info to argue. The fact that the photon bit being related to Superman's reflex/reaction time is a bit much to me. You kind of figure, if you can react that fast, you'd be saved a lot of grief and injuries and hits.

Again, we can blame this on the writer of Heaven's Ladder.


----------



## General Shino (Jul 1, 2006)

What the hell, how many damn versions are there?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

A fair few.

But the main thing is, if the thread is 'Superman Prive vs' or 'vs Superman Prime', there's a fairly decent chance of Supes winning.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> What the hell, how many damn versions are there?



alot, u cant count them on your fingers


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Have you read a Superman comic?
> 
> Like, ever?



Damn, just damn..

You ask that question after you go and use someone else's post. You got some nerve doing that.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _I remember a comic where Superman talked with a bunch of other JLA members and they had a whole conversation in the split second before an alien laser beam hit the earth._
> 
> Yeah, they managed to come up with a plan with a super-fast conversation. I can remember Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter there. I'm not sure about Wally though. . .
> 
> ...




were do u build a ship that big


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

In space, Zero G and all.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> What the hell, how many damn versions are there?



That's exactly the reason I've never been into american comics...

But it's obvious that Superman wins this...unless Phenom posts his scan and proves everyone wrong.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Damn, just damn..
> 
> You ask that question after you go and use someone else's post. You got some nerve doing that.



I only linked to it because it provided issue numbers for all the feats.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> unless Phenom posts his scan and proves everyone wrong.


Yeah, Superman has this in the bag.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> That's exactly the reason I've never been into american comics...
> 
> But it's obvious that Superman wins this...unless Phenom posts his scan and proves everyone wrong.



even if he does it wount really mean anything because superman could not travel at light speed because he would of killed the inccent people he was trying to protect


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I only linked to it because it provided issue numbers for all the feats.



Now Mike lets put your brain to work since you like to use those feats so much.

PROOVE TO ME HOW THOSE FEATS WILL BEAT SON GOKU!!!

Get to work Mike...


----------



## Shiron (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> What the hell, how many damn versions are there?


 Off hand, I can think up (as the major/most common versions):

Pre-Crisis (Silver Age)
Post-Crisis
Superman Million
Superman Prime

And that's just what I've learned from browsing and reading threads like this. In all honesty, I've never picked up a single comic in my life.

But another thing, each version has had different writers, so, because of that, there is a tad of variation in the exact extent of his powers, from comic to comic in each of these versions.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_What the hell, how many damn versions are there?_

*cracks knuckles*

- Earth-2 (Golden Age) Superman; the original back from his 1938 debut
- Earth-1 (Silver Age aka Pre-Crisis) Superman; the second most powerful one, ridiculously powerful
- post-Crisis Superman; our current Superman
- Superboy Prime; an insane, psychopathic, younger alternate version of Superman whose nearly as powerful as Pre-Crisis Superman but without Kryptonite weakeness and magic weakness
- Electro Blue Superman; Superman with energy manipulating powers back in the mid 90s
- Electro Red Superman; the red version, blue split into two; red and blue
- Superman Prime; most powerful version of Superman, think Superman SSJ 100 with Green Lantern ring and heightened immunity to all weaknesses

Superman Million doesn't really count; he's a future descendant of Superman, and thus not Clark Kent/Kal-El.

And I'm not even mentioning Elseworlds. . .


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

were did he get the gl ring?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 1, 2006)

> PROOVE TO ME HOW THOSE FEATS WILL BEAT SON GOKU!!!



I like the grab Goku's arm and fly at lightspeed one.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Now Mike lets put your brain to work since you like to use those feats so much.
> 
> PROOVE TO ME HOW THOSE FEATS WILL BEAT SON GOKU!!!
> 
> Get to work Mike...




truly your ignorance is bliss


----------



## General Shino (Jul 1, 2006)

From the superman I remember from the movies and stuff, he wasnt that strong.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> From the superman I remember from the movies and stuff, he wasnt that strong.


Nor was the Juggernaut in the movie/cartoons, but that's doesn't portray the true Juggernaut.

It's heard to depict such feats in movies, not to mention expensive.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_were did he get the gl ring?_

DC One Million. All the Green Lanterns were dead, and Solaris, the Tyrant Sun, tried to assasinate Superman Prime but using a Kryptonite Bullet.

Problem was, Solaris was duped. The Kryptonite Bullet was actually the last Green Lantern Ring.

Superman Prime used to ring to effortlessly snuff out Solaris.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> From the superman I remember from the movies and stuff, he wasnt that strong.



Read the thread and you'll see how strong he is.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> From the superman I remember from the movies and stuff, he wasnt that strong.



also note the moves were made with crapy special effects, and dumbed down story lines, they were only made to make money


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_From the superman I remember from the movies and stuff, he wasnt that strong._

Animated Superman and movie Superman are a far cry from the comic Superman.

That said, I hate Superman Returns.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

And Phenom, do you know what a Zeta Beam is?


----------



## General Shino (Jul 1, 2006)

I never read DC, I didnt know he was powerfull enough to control universes, how broken,


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

General Shino said:
			
		

> I never read DC, I didnt know he was powerfull enough to control universes, how broken,




now u see the light


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_I never read DC, I didnt know he was powerfull enough to control universes, how broken,_

Control universes?

OK, Supes is powerful, but not that overpowered. . . few people are that overpowered.

where did you read that?


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _I never read DC, I didnt know he was powerfull enough to control universes, how broken,_
> 
> Control universes?
> 
> ...



i think hes talking about controlling as in being the king of them


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

Not to mention the movies are not canon anyway.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> And Phenom, do you know what a Zeta Beam is?



The same shit that transported Super Girl into the future! The Zeta Beam a beam that teleports.

Do not mess with me,

Now Comic Book Guy do you know what Ki is In DBZ? Not  what philosphers and scientists  definition but the DBZ Definition of what Ki is?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Geologist definition of Ki?! XDDDDD


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

lololololololololololololol


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Now Comic Book Guy do you know what Ki is In DBZ? Not scientists and Geoligists definition but the DBZ Definition of Ki?



Sigged for sure.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_The same shit that transported Super Girl into the future! The Zeta Beam a beam that teleports._

I see you know of Supergirl & the Legion of Super-Heroes.

Zeta Beams was invented by Sardath of Rann. It transports (or teleports, under some writers) objects over *light-years* of distance.

That said, Zeta Beams travel at least the speed of light. It has to travel FTL in order to cover the lightyears of distance. It's how Adam Strange was able to go back and forth from Rann and Earth.

_Do not mess with me,_

Clarifiying knowledge and application.

_Now Comic Book Guy do you know what Ki is In DBZ? Not scientists and Geoligists definition but the DBZ Definition of Ki?_

Geologists?

Ki is life energy, or spirit energy.

But provide me the definition then. Regardless of what I say, you'll say me wrong.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

That is a typo I meant philosophers not geoligists, hell I am rushing through my posts.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

That's one hell of a typo.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

> Ki is life energy, or spirit energy.



Great Job Comic Book Guy you got it right! Ki in DBZ is Spirit! You are correct. That is why you are the only threat in debates, the rest of these knuckleheads are cherleaders!

Good job Comic Book Guy I respect you!


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> That is a typo I meant philosophers not geoligists, hell I am rushing through my posts.




sure u did


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

> I see you know of Supergirl & the Legion of Super-Heroes.



you damn right Comic Book Guy, You would be surprised at what I know!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Great Job Comic Book Guy you got it right! Ki in DBZ is Spirit! You are correct. That is why you are the only threat in debates, the rest of these knuckleheads are cherleaders!
> 
> Good job Comic Book Guy I respect you!


You are quite underestimating people if you do not think they know what Ki is, boyo.

And Pheno, I'm quite surprised you know anything.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Great Job Comic Book Guy you got it right! Ki in DBZ is Spirit! You are correct. That is why you are the only threat in debates, the rest of these knuckleheads are cherleaders!
> 
> Good job Comic Book Guy I respect you!




suck up*cough*


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenom is full of himself.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 1, 2006)

I think instead of insulting Phenom people should try posting something like Comic Book Guy does...although I can't say anything 'cause I really don't know shit about Supes.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

if you read all 35 pages you will see that we tried, phenomel has just choosen to ignore all of them because he does not respect us because we dont know what kai is


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenom usually tends to ignore facts, physics, logic, etc. and invents his own, expecting people to believe it.

He also likes to post the same thing around fifteen times in each thread.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Phenom usually tends to ignore facts, physics, logic, etc. and invents his own, expecting people to believe it.
> 
> He also likes to post the same thing around fifteen times in each thread.




ie goku knows martal arts so

goku>all


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Or that after-images indicate faster than light speeds.

I must be able to fap at rapid speeds.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

Curious. . . I wonder if Phenom is still at the football meeting. . .

I have a certain theory. . . concerning about posting times. . .


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_I must be able to fap at rapid speeds._

DOES NOT COMPUTE. MIND SHUT DOWN.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Does that theory include Phenom being pretty much nothing but a lying fanboy?

FEAR MY AFTER-IMAGE PRODUCING PLEASURE!


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

were does he live?

its 12:13 in america central time, and who the hell has a football meeting at 11-12


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

is he talking london football like soccer, and does he live in london?

my football coach is a maniac and would never alow a computer at a meeting

phenemol u got some splaning to do


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Alright Comci Book Guy I just stepped through the door, I am now at the house!

You still want to continue the debate, I still have yet to see how those feats show anything in Goku's defeat.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

And here we are, still not having seen any scans.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

were do u live and who has a football meeting at 11:37


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

I live in California it is now 10:23 over here in beautiful Los Angeles!


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

it all makes sense now, but hoe did u use a comp durring a meeting, cal takes their foorball serouisly


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_You still want to continue the debate, I still have yet to see how those feats show anything in Goku's defeat._

I would, providing that I could stay awake 24/7.

That said, in addition with being a competitive athlete, I really should go to bed. My coach would kill me whenever I stay up this late. I'm going to sleep.

BUt if you want to translate this as retreat, go ahead. I like sleeping.

I'll be online when I wake up. Note, I'm live in Toronto, Eastern Time. it's 1:30 here.

And from my post #653.



> Here. This may be arguable, but it pertains to Superman's reflex-speed.
> 
> Remember that 'racing a photon to a target' bit? That's REFLEX-WISE.
> 
> ...



I'm done for this night. Night.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Hell yes, the coaches and the team was watching film so I open my team mates laptop and I type while the coach was talking. He was talking about things that I already know, but man I tell you I won't do that again.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 1, 2006)

Hey Phenom, if you can't post the scans just say so 'cause it's not a big deal....by now it should be obvious Supes has the advantage.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

I can post the scans and I will when I feel like it. Comic Book guy has already confirmed what I stated is true! so it is the truth.

Goku won this you obviosly do not know what you are chatting!

Later....


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Hell yes, the coaches and the team was watching film so I open my team mates laptop and I type while the coach was talking. He was talking about things that I already know, but man I tell you I won't do that again.



football coachs are bitchs, escpecialy mine


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

You play ball too huh! well hell we should be in agrement not arguing since we are fellow athletes and more importantly Football players.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

Good idea.

So then why don't you concede already?


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You play ball too huh! well hell we should be in agrement not arguing since we are fellow athletes and more importantly Football players.



true that


----------



## escamoh (Jul 1, 2006)

I don't think this thread is gonna get anything done until CBG gets back...


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> I don't think this thread is gonna get anything done until CBG gets back...



quoted for truth


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

I am going out I will continue this Tommorrow with Comic Book Guy and whoever else thinks that they know what they are talking about.


----------



## Jeffrey199 (Jul 1, 2006)

I have been following this thread searching for proof that Goku would beat Superman, cause I like him better, and yet I still only see evidence that Superman outclasses Goku.

Speed: Goku seems to be able to travel several times the speed of sound (Instant Transmition beside) Superman travels near lightspeed.
Strength: Goku lifts half a city, Superman pushes a planet.
Durability: Goku gets punched through mountains, superman survives Galaxy destroying blasts.
Energy Blasts: I can give this one to Goku since its said he can destroy a planet, and he has spirit bomb where as Supes has heat vision which doesn't seem as strong (Someone claimed Superman's heat vision can encompass the earth I would love to see a scan on that if its true).
Fighting ability: I can give to Goku seeing he trains in Martial Arts , however seeing the other abilities Supes is shown to have over Goku I have to say this doesn't seem to count for much.

This is just me saying what I have seen in this thread, I don't read enough comics to offer much besides whom is showing more evidence of who would win.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 1, 2006)

@Jeffery199, I don't think we're using Pre-Crisis Superman...


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

All the feats he listed were Post - Crisis.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 1, 2006)

Jeffrey199 said:
			
		

> Energy Blasts: I can give this one to Goku since its said he can destroy a planet, and he has spirit bomb where as Supes has heat vision which doesn't seem as strong (Someone claimed Superman's heat vision can encompass the earth I would love to see a scan on that if its true).



Superman's heat vision is hotter than the sun (not the surface, the CORE).


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Jeffrey199 said:
			
		

> I have been following this thread searching for proof that Goku would beat Superman, cause I like him better, and yet I still only see evidence that Superman outclasses Goku.
> 
> Speed: Goku seems to be able to travel several times the speed of sound (Instant Transmition beside) Superman travels near lightspeed.
> 
> ...



Goku is just the better fighter, Supes reflexes are not good he is going to get speed blitzed all day.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Superman's reflexes, not good?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

1. The DBZ speed thread already ascertained that there was no evidence that DBZ characters moved or fought anywhere near the speed of light.

2. You're ignoring that Superman only goes 0.99c in the atmosphere because he wants to avoid killing people. He goes much faster than c in space.

3. Pushing a planetoid the size of Pluto across the solar system, despite the fact that its engines (that take up half the surface of the whole planet) are firing in reverse to stop him, and they have recently stolen the power from a cosmic being, is not impressive?

4. Superman has way more fighting experience against many more and varied types of opponents than Goku has. Superman is a much better fighter.


----------



## Pinkaugust (Jul 1, 2006)

I still wouldn't say Supes is a better fighter, all Goku does is fight, you can't possibly mean Goku doesn't have more experience!


----------



## king gidorah (Jul 1, 2006)

i agree but goku is just cooler! i mean superman wears tights for shits sake!!
goku is just bitchin'!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Pinkaugust said:
			
		

> I still wouldn't say Supes is a better fighter, all Goku does is fight, you can't possibly mean Goku doesn't have more experience!


Supes has lived for far, far longer than Goku.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

king gidorah said:
			
		

> i agree but goku is just cooler! i mean superman wears tights for shits sake!!
> goku is just bitchin'!



And Goku wears pajamas.

Your point?


----------



## Shiron (Jul 1, 2006)

king gidorah said:
			
		

> i agree but goku is just cooler! i mean superman wears tights for shits sake!!
> goku is just bitchin'!


 Wow...

Since when does coolness win the fight? Does the less cool person just give up when they see the cooler people and say, "Wow! You're just so much cooler than me! I can't posssibly beat such a cool person as you" ? I think not.

This is getting pathetic...

And on a different note, yes, it is true that Supes has been around much longer than Goku and has more combat experience than Goku could even dream of having.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

That reminds me of an argument I saw on another forum. The topic was Goku vs. Inuyasha. It went like this:



			
				random fangirl said:
			
		

> Inuyasha will win because.... because I like him and he's my favorite and.... I love his hair!





			
				some other guy said:
			
		

> WTF are you talking about! Goku would destroy him with 1 ki blast.





			
				a sarcastic person said:
			
		

> No, didn't you hear? The ki blast would fly at him, but it would notice how nice his hair was, and since it wouldn't want to mess up such nice hair, it would turn around and hit Goku instead, so Inuyasha would win!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_(Someone claimed Superman's heat vision can encompass the earth I would love to see a scan on that if its true)._

I can vouch for that.

Link removed

And to verify the hotter than the core of a star thing, It's true. Scientists remarked that while they can determine how hot a star's core is, they can't even begin to guess how how Superman's heat vision is.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That reminds me of an argument I saw on another forum. The topic was Goku vs. Inuyasha. It went like this:


XD

The coolness/favorite character argument is just a pet peeve of mine. It just seriously annoys me when people use this (also, when people say things like "Well, I've never heard of this character, so it's obvious that the other one will win").


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

i cant wait untill we repeat what we have been saying for 35 pages because of mindless fanboyism, oh wait we are


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

The Vegito vs. Vegito thread. 80 pages.

But I've seen worst.

Living Tribunal vs. Goku.

That took *13 pages* to resolve.


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> The Vegito vs. Vegito thread. 80 pages.
> 
> But I've seen worst.
> 
> ...



don't remind me


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> The Vegito vs. Vegito thread. 80 pages.
> 
> But I've seen worst.
> 
> ...



Do you have a link to that, by any chance?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

It seems to have grown to 37 pages now. . . then again, it is the CBR forums. . .


----------



## Countach (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> It seems to have grown to 37 pages now. . . then again, it is the CBR forums. . .




please make the nightmares go away


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> It seems to have grown to 37 pages now. . . then again, it is the CBR forums. . .



Well that explains it....


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 1. The DBZ speed thread already ascertained that there was no evidence that DBZ characters moved or fought anywhere near the speed of light.
> 
> *Mike did you even read that entire thread? None of you have disprooven any speed feats about DBZ speed. After Images, Ki blasts faster than light, Goku standing in one place while Ki blasts are going through him he became intangible! None of you have disproven anything.*
> 
> ...



LOL, Now this is complete and absolute Bullocks! Endless Mike you don't have a clue.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

> Mike did you even read that entire thread? None of you have disprooven any speed feats about DBZ speed.



You're the only one that thinks that.



> After Images



Which I can create by waving my hand in front of the computer screen. Honestly, there is absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever for your 'afterimages means lightspeed'! crap. I even explained scientifically why they occur, you didn't listen.



> Ki blasts faster than light



Which only happened twice, both in non - canon movies.



> Goku standing in one place while Ki blasts are going through him he became intangible!



If you actually payed attention to the scene, you would see that he was just dodging them really fast and appearing not to move. That was the whole point of the extra footprints on both sides of him. Really, the show did its best to make this as clear as possible.



> None of you have disproven anything.



Again, you're the only one that thinks that. Did you ever consider it might be because you're, I don't know, WRONG?



> Where are you getting this he can move multiple times light speed in space rubbish. It took him over 8 minutes to get to the sun in OWAW. Everything was on the line . If he could have moved faster he would have.



Post the scan so I know exactly what you're talking about.



> He can move 99% the speed of light (thats what DC says)



In the atmosphere. Which is a self - imposed limit.



> he hasn't got a link to the speed force he's not the flash. Also Superman cannot stay in space forever, he can hold his breath for a long tme but he still needs oxygen eventually.



He can stay in space for weeks at a time. With most writers, he doesn't even need to breathe, he just needs solar energy.



> No because Superman was sundipped that is expected after the fact.



So you admit that all Superman has to do to beat Goku is to sundip?



> LOL, Now this is complete and absolute Bullocks! Endless Mike you don't have a clue.



That wasn't even a refutation at all.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_After Images,_

Endless Mike and Reznor covered that bit.

_Ki blasts faster than light,_

Please. Ki blasts don't go faster than light.

_Goku standing in one place while Ki blasts are going through him he became intangible!_

So? Superman can do that as well, as well as the Flash.

_Where are you getting this he can move multiple times light speed in space rubbish. It took him over 8 minutes to get to the sun in OWAW._

Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip. He was pissed at the time, with Luthor being elected president I believe.

And where does it say 8 minutes? Action Comics #782? Man of Steel #117? Superman #173? Adventures of Superman #595?

_He can move 99% the speed of light (thats what DC says)_

Confirmed by Kid Flash after a race on Earth.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

To be honest, CBG, I don't get why you continue to try and reason with him? He just won't accept facts that would mean his favourite universe loses.

And Phenomenol, it's bollocks, not bullocks.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You're the only one that thinks that.
> 
> *No, none of you have disproven a damn thing.*
> 
> ...



Why waste time wit ha guy that does not know what he is talking about. It is obvious that your knowldge of Superman and Dragonball is very limited but that is okay I wll guide you along holding your little hand okay babycakes.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_To be honest, CBG, I don't get why you continue to try and reason with him? He just won't accept facts that would mean his favourite universe loses._

It's what I do.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_You are right, I just rewatched it! That is faster than lightspeed!_

If that was true, the entire environment around him would have been reduced to rubble with the sonic booms of his resulting movement.

And which issue of the 4 that I mentioned during the Casualties of War arc was the 8 minutes said?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Faster than the eye can see =/= faster than light, Phenomenol.

And fair enough, CBG.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _You are right, I just rewatched it! That is faster than lightspeed!_
> 
> if that was true, the entire environment around him would have been reduced to rubble with the sonic booms of his resulting movement.
> 
> ...



I do not remember off the top of my head... (Thinking)


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 1, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Once again you are lacking Common sense.



Mind if I laugh at the irony and hypocricy?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

> No, none of you have disproven a damn thing.



I repeat: You're the only one that thinks that.



> Bending light is certain to cause more optical illusions! your hand theory is absolute Bull, it is not the same damn thing. You have not expalined a damn thing go back and look at the last page of the DBZ speed thread.



Then explain how it's different.

A physical object moving at the speed of light would be invisible to the naked eye, unless it was very far away and either very bright, or very large (preferably both).

What you call an 'afterimage' is caused by the brain's inability to process information recieved by the eye for objects at high speeds.

It's an optical illusion.

Besides, according to your theory, characters from Rorouni Kenshin, Naruto, Bleach, Hunter X Hunter, Yu Yu Hakusho, Inuyasha, One Piece, and a bunch of other shows all move at lightspeed since they all leave afterimages!



> Go look at the last page of the DBZ speed section you do not know what the hell you are babbling.



That thread was closed because you wouldn't listen to anyone's arguments or refutations of everything you posted.

But, just to entertain me, why don't you give some examples of ki blasts going faster than the speed of light?



> You are right, I just rewatched it! That is faster than lightspeed!



 

HE ONLY MOVED ONE FOOT OR SO TO EACH SIDE! Even if he was only travelling at the speed of sound, the movement would still seem to be invisible for such a short distance.



> No apparently Mike youy have explained nothing.



Just because everything I say goes in one of your ears and out the other doesn't mean I'm not saying anything. Moron.



> No, go ask Comic Book Guy he knows it is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about. Hell any Superman fan knows this.



Then provide the scan. Oh, wait, you can't. Sorry, you fail.



> Hell no!



You're right, he wouldn't even need to, he could easily win without it.



> Why waste time wit ha guy that does not know what he is talking about. It is obvious that your knowldge of Superman and Dragonball is very limited but that is okay I wll guide you along holding your little hand okay babycakes



Can someone ban this guy?

Please?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

Please elaborate on my 'lack of common sense'.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

> Then explain how it's different.
> 
> A physical object moving at the speed of light would be invisible to the naked eye, unless it was very far away and either very bright, or very large (preferably both).
> 
> ...



No it is not the same. None of them leave optical illusions like DBZ or even move as fast! that is total Crap you are speaking Mike.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

Please. Elaborate on my lack of common sense.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

> Your partially wrong, DBZ is invisible to the naked eye! when they move.



That's funny, I have no trouble seeing them when I watch the show. Perhaps you should get your eyes checked.



> If they were going the speed of light at least a blurr would be created which is an optical illusion



Objects can create blurs even if they are moving slower than sound, due to relative velocity.



> but once beyond the speed of light no image is created... (Light reflects off of an object and then goes to ones eyes, which gives us images, if an object moves faster then light an image will not be created as the object is moving to fast for the light to catch it and refect off)



That would be true if the only light source was directly behind the object, and the object was moving at FTL velocities away from the lightsource, but if the object in question was moving towards the light source, or parallel to it, or in any one of many possible trajectories where the light would hit it, it would become visible (assuming it was far enough away that it had a low enough relative velocity for our eyes to track, and it was either bright or large enough to be detected at that distance).

Considering most DBZ fights take place on the surface of a planet, during the day, then the light source is above them, and since they never dive straight through the planet out the other side away from the sun, it can be reasonably assumed that any sophisticated enough visual tracking device could detect them, even if they were moving faster than light. The reason they seem to disappear is because they are simply moving too fast for our eyes to keep up with (which does not indicate speeds anywhere near the speed of light, for example, a human - sized object moving right in front of you will seem to disappear when it reaches 200 miles per hour).



> Optical Illusions are caused because the individual is bending light! That is moving at lightspeed.



Um, no. Light doesn't "bend" (except if it is deflected by a powerful gravity well). It always travels in a straight line. Sometimes it hits an object and is deflected in another straight line. Needless to say, this phenomenon has nothing to do with optical illusions.



> No it is not the same. None of them leave optical illusions like DBZ or even move as fast! that is total Crap you are speaking Mike.



Then explain the difference, because they sure look the same to me.

In fact, one could even say that Akira Toriyama is the father of modern shounen manga, and many, if not all, shounen manga authors today take inspiration from his works. Thus they use the same kind of effects in their drawings. Saying they are different for no reason is just stupid.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 1, 2006)

Endless Mike, I understand what you are talking about, but It is not like Akira Toriyama was holding a science book in one hand and formula's in the other!

I will make some points..

Just because a person could move at the speed of light doesn't mean that they'd go around the entire planet, what if they went that fast only for a mili second? If you remember, Goku and Freeza's entire fight only lasted less then 5 mintues, and as we all know, scenes are sometimes slown to see what's actually going on (which is how 5 mintues took over 2 hours). Also, if you didn't know light would go around the planet, Earth, 8 times in a second... 

2.) Freeza says in the Dragonball Kanzenban "You are trying to follow the light, that won't work" or something like that. The reason that he tells goku that it wont work is because he's going so fast that the light cannot keep up with him and thus he doesn't have any image for Goku to see (and so Goku has to fight him through sencing his energy) 

3.) Master Roshi's Kamehameha got to the Moon, and destroyed it, in only a few seconds. That means that the Kamehameha was at least going the speed of light (which makes sence because it's made of Ki which is energy and energy travels at the speed of light). Now if the Kamehameha travels at the speed of light it makes complete sence that the characters move beyond the speed of light because they can dodge the Kamehameha.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 1, 2006)

_(which makes sence because it's made of Ki which is energy and energy travels at the speed of light). _

Goku's Kamehame Ha carried Vegeta.

Vegeta got off.

He was still in Earth's atmosphere.

Please explain that to me.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 1, 2006)

1. Wrong, Goku and Freeza's fight lasted over half an hour. Freeza was just wrong about how long it took the planet to explode. Unless, of course, you think that the lava was erupting at superspeed, Bulma, Dende, and the other weaker characters who did tons of stuff in the time it took the planet to explode and reacted to a lot of Goku and Freeza's attacks and moves were also moving at superspeed, the wind was blowing at superspeed (which would have killed Bulma), Goku and Freeza were talking to each other at super speed, etc. Not to mention that in 5 minutes, you could fly around the earth over 2100 times at lightspeed (I know Namek is bigger than earth, but it can't be 2100 times bigger, or else its gravity would be too heavy for Bulma to walk in).

2. That's a huge and unfounded leap in reasoning. As I already explained, a human - sized object moving at 200 miles per hour close up seems to disappear to the naked eye. Freeza just meant that Goku's eyes weren't fast enough to track him.

3. Wrong. I read the manga, Roshi fired at the moon, we could still see the beam travelling as one of the NORMAL HUMANS in the audience reacted to it, then there were a bunch of panels where everyone was worrying that Goku was dead, then Krillin accused Roshi of being a murderer, THEN finally Roshi pointed up in the sky, and they noticed the moon was gone. That's hardly 'a few seconds'. More like a few minutes.

4. Tons of times we see ki blasts that are clearly not moving at the speed of light. Tons of times random background characters react to them as well.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Bump since the argument apparently won't die and it's spreading to other threads.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

Scanned and uploaded.

4


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Like I said she is not vibrating anything! She is moving really quickly. For some reason Comic Book Guy that does not match? What is going on here?


----------



## Galt (Jul 2, 2006)

Vibrate:
shake, quiver, or throb; move back and forth rapidly, usually in an uncontrolled manner

Hell man, I'm vibrating right now.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

If Super Girl could Vibrate her molecules then she is way faster than Superman! and we all know that is not even remotely true.

Something is fishy with that Scan! I am telling you Vibrating your molecules is a Speed Force trick.


----------



## Final Ultima (Jul 2, 2006)

Look at the scan.



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Like I said she is not vibrating anything! She is moving really quickly. For some reason Comic Book Guy that does not match? What is going on here?


Supergirl: "Right here. I'm vibrating so fast you can't see me. Little trick I learned studying The Flash."



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Like I said she is not vibrating anything!


_Supergirl: "I'm vibrating so fast you can't see me."_



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> she is not vibrating


_*Supergirl: "I'm vibrating"

*_...

Clear enough?


----------



## Galt (Jul 2, 2006)

Well since you already apologized to CBG over accusing (inadvertantly or not) him of tampering with the scan, at this point it's kind of useless to claim that there's something wrong with the scan.  Unless you feel like renewing your claims to his lack of credibility.  It's pretty much established, as far as I am concerned, that the vibration trick is one that Superman and Supergirl both can do pretty easily.  Now, vibrating through something to have it explode, I think is a different and Speed-force only case.  I may be wrong, but I think that's how it works.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

It is not right, something is not right. Superman never vibrated his molecules. All of the sudden Super Girel can? Then hell Super Girl is way faster than Superman.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> It is not right, something is not right. Superman never vibrated his molecules. All of the sudden Super Girel can? Then hell Super Girl is way faster than Superman.


He never did _that you know of_, but something that has been stated and CBG showed a scan of. Your ignorance does not mean something is wrong.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Oh, and Superman did vibrate himself intangible.

CBG even posted a scan, but Phenomen - LOL denied that it happened.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Seeing as I can't quote from that thread, I'll post the links.

4 4

Credit to CBG for these two.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 2, 2006)

This thread is never gonna end if people actually start denying stuff that happened in the comic...


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Seeing as I can't quote from that thread, I'll post the links.
> 
> 4 4
> 
> Credit to CBG for these two.



RUBBISH. Supes isn't vibrating anything, he's simple moving quickly. Superman CANNOT vibrate his molecues like the flash. Thats a speed force trick. 

Goku could become invisble by jumping from side to side when he was a kid. Hell Roshi and Krillin played rock paper scisors andfought infront of an entire stdium of people and they were invisible because they moved so quickly that they did not even move.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Prove to me that it is indeed a Speed Force Trick. Go on, I'm eager to be proven wrong.

And unless the person punching him is doing so at the exact same speed that Supes is moving, it isn't plausible.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

So since you do not even know what the hell Speed Force is Why the hell are you even in this debate?


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Seeing as I can't quote from that thread, I'll post the links.
> 
> 4 4
> 
> Credit to CBG for these two.



Their was also a time he vibrated himself invisible for an entire day. He did so, so he could trick his enemies into thinking he was dead.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> So since you do not even know what the hell Speed Force is Why the hell are you even in this debate?


Show me in which post I specifically state or insinuate that I do not know what Speed Force is.

Now prove it to me, if you will. And feel free to explain why my 'same speed' statement is utter bullshit, while you're at it.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

> Maggot BrainShow me in which post I specifically state or insinuate that I do not know what Speed Force is.





> *Prove to me that it is indeed a Speed Force Trick*. Go on, I'm eager to be proven wrong.



*LOL! You should of known that Vibrating your molecules is a link to the speed force, but since you do not think before you speak you asked two dumb questions.*

Please stop debating if your knowledg is limited in certain issues..


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

No, I ask of you how exactly vibrating one's molecules is a Speed Force-exclusive trick, not that I do not know what the Speed Force is, although I question that you do.

Once again, prove to me that vibrating ones molecules is linked to the Speed Force, and only to the Speed Force. I suppose you believe that actual molecules don't move, do you?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Their was also a time he vibrated himself invisible for an entire day. He did so, so he could trick his enemies into thinking he was dead.



Id, do you even know that is not vibrating his molecules, he is just moving at Super Speed!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Id, do you even know that is not vibrating his molecules, he is just moving at Super Speed!


Prove that for me, too, while you're at it.


----------



## Alacr?n (Jul 2, 2006)

It's true that Goku can move so fast that he is "invisible" to his enemies, but if youre saying he was moviing at super speed the whole time, what was he doing? Running around in circles?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Of course I hope phenomen - LOL realizes that all molecules in the universe vibrate to at least some degree....


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Does not matter, the point is that You guys are saying that Superman can use the speed force and he can not.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Quote the exact post where any of us said that.

Being able to become intangible does not necessarily involve using the speedforce.

Martian Manhunter can become intangible and does so all the time, but he is not a speedforce user either.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

No, you're saying that we claim that Superman can use the Speed Force and that we're wrong.

We're not implying that, Superman relies on his natural speed and can use that to vibrate his molecules so much that it's similair to how the Flash uses it.

Incase you don't know how the Speed Force works.



			
				http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/force.html said:
			
		

> The way the speed force seems to work is that it powers any super-fast being not naturally fast. A cheetah, for instance, is naturally fast. Superman?s speed is also a natural consequence of his Kryptonian heritage. All Flashes, however, have been normal people ?noticed? by the speed force through accidents (lightning, supersonic flight, etc.) or intentional experiments (magic, steroids, etc.).



And you are quite free to ignore this post and continue your wonderings as to how _Geologists_ view Ki.


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Id, do you even know that is not vibrating his molecules, he is just moving at Super Speed!


Well there is a scan ware he vibrated his molecules CMG posted the scan.

But when I stated he vibrated himself invisible, it means he vibrated himself invisible. (that?s how it was stated in the comic).



			
				Alacr?n said:
			
		

> It's true that Goku can move so fast that he is "invisible" to his enemies, but if youre saying he was moviing at super speed the whole time, what was he doing? Running around in circles?



He is vibrating so fast, his molecules spread out. To 
1 - become intangible
2 - become invisible



			
				Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Does not matter, the point is that You guys are saying that Superman can use the speed force and he can not.



No not really
Speed force (among other elements) is what grants the Flash its super speed and powers.
Superman has super speed because he is Superman the last son of  Krypton who gains superhuman powers as he is being exposed to the Sun, he is fast enough he can pick up a trick or two from Flash relying on his natural powers, with out the aid of the Speed Force.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Well as of now Supes can not tap into the speed force.

The point is becoming invisibleis not a bigh thing becasue in Dragonball Goku can become invisible by jumping side to side. Hell Roshi and Krillin played a game of rock paper scisors and fought in front of an entire stdium of people and they were invisible because they moved so quickly that they did not even move.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Well as of now Supes can not tap into the speed force.
> 
> The point is becoming invisibleis not a bigh thing becasue in Dragonball Goku can become invisible by jumping side to side. Hell Roshi and Krillin played a game of rock paper scisors and fought in front of an entire stdium of people and they were invisible because they moved so quickly that they did not even move.


Repeating something over and over again does not make it add much to your side, as much as you'd like it.

Supes was never able to tap into the SF, he relies on NATURAL SPEED.


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> It seems to have grown to 37 pages now. . . then again, it is the CBR forums. . .



Oh WTF?

Living Tribunal>>>>>>>IG>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cosmic Cube>>>>>>>>Dragon Balls.

How the hell did fans get in their heads that Goku w/ Dragon Balls can overcome the LT?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

B/c wid dem dragonbals he can wish N/EFING! lol nub


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Goku does become omnipotent at the end of GT!

I still think the Living Tribunal beats Goku though.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol, do you even _know_ what Omnipotent means?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

maggot brain you really waste posts asking stupid questions.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

How about not avoiding the question and answering?


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

Goku absorbs the Dragonbal’s so what happened to Goku? (does he rides the magic dragon for all eternity???)
GT never gave an explanation to what happened to goke or what ability he gains. People are mostly assuming he becomes a God (which is kida stupid )


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

It's never explained what happens after Goku absorbs the dragonballs. For all we know, he could have gotten weaker.

But using the maximum generous interpretation, I still don't see where people get all this 'omnipotent' crap from. The dragonballs are not all powerful, there were tons of wishes that they were unable to grant. So why would absorbing them make Goku omnipotent? At most he would be able to grant wishes within the power of the dragonballs by just thinking about it.

Of course GT is non - canon anyway so it doesn't really even matter.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

It does to the fanboys.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

Vibrating one's molecules isn't Speed Force exclusive.

Look at Jay Garrick.


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

Well if DBZ fans want to be cheap about Goku absorbing the Dragon Balls then counter with Superman holding the Sword Of Truth to warp reality.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well if DBZ fans want to be cheap about Goku absorbing the Dragon Balls then counter with Superman holding the Sword Of Truth to warp reality.


Or if you want non-canon like DBGT, Superman with HotU.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

Now when did Supes have the HotU?


----------



## escamoh (Jul 2, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well if DBZ fans want to be cheap about Goku absorbing the Dragon Balls then counter with Superman holding the Sword Of Truth to warp reality.



I don't get how that makes sense....we don't even know what happened when Goku absorbed the dragon balls.

And isn't Superman Prime the only Superman who used the Sword of Truth?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Now when did Supes have the HotU?


In my mind; just like Goku achieving Omnipotence in the minds of fanboys across the globe.

Mind you, I was merely kidding.


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> I don't get how that makes sense....we don't even know what happened when Goku absorbed the dragon balls.
> 
> And isn't Superman Prime the only Superman who used the Sword of Truth?


Superman Prime never held the Sword of Truth.
It was PC Supes who held it in its possession.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

_And isn't Superman Prime the only Superman who used the Sword of Truth?_

As an reader of DC One Million, I can confirm that Superman Prime wasn't the one who used the Sword of Truth.

It was the Silver Age Superman (Pre-Crisis).


----------



## escamoh (Jul 2, 2006)

Well thanks for the info....but I remember this Superman uber-fan told me Supes Prime had some kind of powerful sword.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

He's mistaken.

The only weapon he has is the last Green Lantern ring.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

But it's plausible that Superman Prime can create a powerful sword with the GL-ring.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

_But it's plausible that Superman Prime can create a powerful sword with the GL-ring._

A general sword, yes. But the Sword of Truth, no.

But to get back on the speed topic --

*Vibrating one's molecules is not Speed Force exclusive*

Case in point, look at Jay Garrick, the original Flash.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _But it's plausible that Superman Prime can create a powerful sword with the GL-ring._
> 
> A general sword, yes. But the Sword of Truth, no.
> 
> ...


But a general sword can be powerful, none the less. "Some kind of powerful sword" is not a direct link to the Sword of Truth, after all.

Or take a simple Physics class about Molecules, I believe they teach you that molecules vibrate.


----------



## Id (Jul 2, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> Well thanks for the info....but I remember this Superman uber-fan told me Supes Prime had some kind of powerful sword.


The mistake fans made was that the Sword Of Truth was seen in one of the front covers in a comic issues.
So many fans assumed (I don?t know how) that Prime Supes held the Sword of Truth in his possession.
If he did had the Sword, he would have revived Louis with lil effort. Yet he didn?t and needed the Aid of a 5 th dimension Imp, plus go the the trouble of  forceing  his way into Haven to find Louis soul.

So yeah Superman prime holding the Sword of Truth = internet myth thanks to word of mouth.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Superman Prime holding the Sword Of Truth would be one of the most broken things. Ever.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

True. Would almost puts him up on par with the Saint of Killers.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Superman Prime with the Infinity Gauntlet, Sword of Truth, GL Ring and Heart of The Universe...

Ho shit.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

I could do one similar.

In JLA/Avengers, Grandmaster manipulated the following items.

- The Eternity Book; a powerful magical tome created by the sorceror Merlin in the DC Universe that contains a narrative of the entire history of existence to the present day. 
- the Orb of Ra; an ancient weapon created from a fallen meteor by an Egyptian priest named Ahk-ton. Unearthed centuries later by Rex Mason, the Orb's energies transformed him into Metamorpho. 
- a Power Battery; what gives Green Lanterns in the DC Universe their power
- the Spear of Destiny; an artifact of enormous magical power that was used by a Roman centurion named Longinus to pierce the side of Jesus Christ after he was crucified. In the DC Universe, it was used by Hitler during World War I to keep the allied super-heroes out of Axis territory. 
- the Medusa Mask; possessed by the villainous Psycho-Pirate (II) in the DC Universe, allows whoever uses it to control other people's emotions. 
- the Green Bell of Uthool, the Silver Wheel of Nyorlath, and the Red Jar of Calythos; occult artifacts in the DC Universe that can summon three powerful elder demons - Abnegazar, Ghast, and Rath. 
- the 6 Soul Gems, also known as the Infinity Gems, combined to form the powerful Infinity Gauntlet. 
- the Wand of Watoomb; a mystic artifact in the Marvel Universe that greatly enhances its wielder's magical energies. 
- the Ultimate Nullifier; a weapon of immense power in the Marvel Universe, capable of destroying an entire universe. 
- a Cosmic Cube; created by the subversive organization known as Advanced Idea Mechanics in the Marvel Universe. Incredibly powerful, the Cube is able to grant its wielder anything they desire.
- the Evil Eye; a powerful weapon from the mystic realm of Avalon that was presented by Prestor John during the time of the Crusades in the 12th Century of the Marvel Universe. 
- the Casket of Ancient Winters; an object from Norse mythology in the Marvel Universe which contains the legendary Fimbulwinter, a powerful magical frigid force.

All those added to the cosmic powers of the Grandmaster. . .


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

HO-LY SHIT. That'd be awesome.

Care to tell me more about the DC Merlin?

And Fimbulwinter? If I recall correctly, that's pretty much not good for any humans on the planet, although my Norse Mythological knowledge might be a bit off.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

Not much that I read upon. Magic was more tied with the VERTIGO imprint.

Met Tim Hunter once, DC's Harry Potter (Tim came before Harry).


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Hmm... Right, right.

But still, Fimbulvnter preludes Ragnarok, so it's still pretty much death to all, I suppose.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I could do one similar.
> 
> In JLA/Avengers, Grandmaster manipulated the following items.
> 
> ...



And he was defeated by a guy with a bow and arrow....


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And he was defeated by a guy with a bow and arrow....


Pwned, right?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 2, 2006)

So how exactly _was_ he defeated? I mean, with that many magical and powerful artifacts, plus the power of a cosmic, how does one get beaten? A Deus Ex Machina, pulled out of the metaphorical ass?


Atleast seven Green Lanterns, damn.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Well what every body so pumped about Goku with the Dragonball GT Black star dragonballs is that at the end of Gt it says he becomes God and he is immortal! He is 161 years old and all he does is train along with the powers of the Dragonballs.

Personally I do not like Dragonball GT because I always thought it was missing something.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

They should have just left it at Z.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Personally I do not like Dragonball GT because I always thought it was missing something.



A plot?

Quality?

Continuity?

Consistency?

Sense?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

_A plot?_

Well. . . the original Dragon Ball had the best plot.

_Quality?_

Which? Story, characterization, or animation?

_Continuity?_

Horrible.

_Consistency?_

Never took note.

_Sense?_

. . . Huh?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> A plot?
> 
> Quality?
> 
> ...



Exactly, missing all of that. Toriyama gave the go ahead he even did the character design for Super Saiya-jin 4, that is all he did for the GT project.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

Thank god it stopped there. . . I shudder to think if they green lighted a fourth. . .


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 2, 2006)

Well there was that horrible "Plot to eradicate the Saiya-jins" fan movie.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 2, 2006)

I always wondered how exactly did Bulma and Vegeta got together. . . I never did understood how it worked out between them. . .

After Dragon Ball, I figured Yamcha would hook up with her. But Vegeta in Z?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Well Bulma was lonely because Yamcha kept flirting with other womne and it made her angry. so Bulma figured that Vegeta was lonely and well you know..


----------



## Countach (Jul 3, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I always wondered how exactly did Bulma and Vegeta got together. . . I never did understood how it worked out between them. . .
> 
> After Dragon Ball, I figured Yamcha would hook up with her. But Vegeta in Z?


 

she felt sorry for him, and then she saw his *#!#$ and then trunks was born


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

Though, it does raise the question of how are they still together. Or what Vegeta saw in her.


----------



## Countach (Jul 3, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Though, it does raise the question of how are they still together. Or what Vegeta saw in her.



i thought i answerd that in my last post (if u catch my drift)


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

Yeah. I know.

But I'm being serious.

This is what happens when you consider writing stories as a career. . .


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Well it is tough to explain.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 3, 2006)

DBZ should have just ended at the Freeza saga with Goku as the only super saya-jinn.

But then we'd never get to see Trunks >.<


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Well Toriyama was going to end it their, but the fans pressured him into more work thus expanding DBZ!


----------



## escamoh (Jul 3, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Well Toriyama was going to end it their, but the fans pressured him into more work thus expanding DBZ!



Wow...so just 'cause of fans he added like 5 more saga's?

Was GT made because of fans too?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

GT was made for cashing in on the DB fame/hype.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Yes Gt was made for that and also because fans wanted another series of DBZ so they made GT.

Even now Fans are still demanding more DBZ series as you can tell the fans made up rumors and even their own series DBAF! Still to this day fans are begging for more Dragonball series but they will not get it, Gt was the final.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 3, 2006)

Yeah I've heard of DBAF and I saw those pictures of SSJ5 Goku...

Mabey SSJ5 Goku could beat Superman lol.


----------



## Renegade (Jul 3, 2006)

J/W, Can Superman blow up a planet?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

No he can not.


----------



## Rellik (Jul 3, 2006)

Renegade78 said:
			
		

> J/W, Can Superman blow up a planet?



Superman has juggled planets before, cut them in half with his heat vision, and can melt planets.

You be the judge. I'm sure this has been said before but goku is just an asian superman.

The original for the win.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

We're debating post-Crisis Superman, not Pre-Crisis.


----------



## Rellik (Jul 3, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> We're debating post-Crisis Superman, not Pre-Crisis.



Oh I never read dc past post crisis (I was a marvel kid and I read my dad's old dc comics). So I'm not good at judging supes strenth, in recent incarnations. 
But with all of goku's super modes I'd rather a powerful telepath like your avatar to fight him.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

Ah. Shaman X-Man.


----------



## Renegade (Jul 3, 2006)

so it's post-crisis. can he blow up planets or no?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Post crisis gretest strength feat was pushing War world Sundipped I believe the engines were also helping him.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 3, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Post crisis gretest strength feat was pushing War world Sundipped I believe the engines were also helping him.


Which is significant, since:
War World is a Pluto sized planet

It had light-speed thrusters pushing it in the other direction.

It is yet to be proved that Goku has a strength feat(as in, a pushing/pulling/lifting one) that compares with that.


----------



## escamoh (Jul 3, 2006)

But since Goku has never tried to push or pull a planet we don't know if he has the power to do it or not.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

The engines were not helping him, they were hindering him!

Did you even read the comic?

You claim to have read OWAW, but you're getting everything wrong.

As for destroying planets, someone already posted the scan of the planet that was destroyed when he fought Darkseid, and I believe he destroyed one in Infinite Crisis (although I'm not sure about this, as I haven't actually gotten around to reading it yet, although I have read plenty of posts on other boards discussing it).

I should also point out that Goku has never destroyed a planet. People just assume he can.....


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

escaflowne3 said:
			
		

> But since Goku has never tried to push or pull a planet we don't know if he has the power to do it or not.



Using that logic, since Superman never tried to destroy the universe, that means he might be able to.

Goku has shown definite limits to his strength, and they are nowhere near planet - moving level.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 3, 2006)

> I should also point out that Goku has never destroyed a planet. People just assume he can.....



Do you know why people assume it, and it is somewhat knowledge? Because Vegeta was able to do so Sajjin time, goku strength far exceeded that so he would be able to blow up a planet.


----------



## little nin (Jul 3, 2006)

hmm, superman to me is the ultimate being and pretty much indestructable...
goku died before...>_>


----------



## chaoserver (Jul 3, 2006)

The planet shook when goku went ss3, Cell said he had the power to blast away a solar system(probally a wee overexageration, but regardless he's ALOT weaker than Goku ss3 or ss4), Vegeta could destroy a planet even when he was 'weak' and Goku is countless times more powerful now, Goku can use instant transmission so could appear behind supes and do him in, or dodge all attacks.
it might be a decent fight but Goku could win even with ss2.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 3, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I should also point out that Goku has never destroyed a planet. People just assume he can.....



I mentioned that like, 20 pages back It got ignored and I got neg repped for it. 



> Do you know why people assume it, and it is somewhat knowledge? Because Vegeta was able to do so Sajjin time, goku strength far exceeded that so he would be able to blow up a planet.



That was filler.


----------



## Rellik (Jul 3, 2006)

I don't know if this was stated but
"In an interview with Joe Casey on Alvaro's ComicBoards, he writes that Superman under his penmanship can re-arrange the Solar System and tear a star apart. "I've always seen Superman as this completely over-the-top, fantastic character who has *no* limits whatsoever," writes Casey. Unencumbered by mental blocks, according to Casey, "Superman is unbeatable.""

Stars are usually much larger than planets. Tearing something apart counts as destroying it.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

_and I believe he destroyed one in Infinite Crisis (although I'm not sure about this, as I haven't actually gotten around to reading it yet, although I have read plenty of posts on other boards discussing it)._

As an avid reader of Infinite Crisis and all its tie-ins, I can confirm that the planet was not destroyed when Superman fought against Earth-2 Superman.

And yes, I'm familiar with Joe Casey's statement on Superman's capabilities under his hand. It was one hell of a contrast with Byrne's Superman.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

That's the problem with multiple writers.


----------



## Kuya (Jul 3, 2006)

IMO goku ftw


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

Man, that's a lot of Naruto pics. . .


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

chaoserver said:
			
		

> The planet shook when goku went ss3



Which means what, exactly?

Since Superman's power isn't as wasteful and doesn't randomly spill out so much, that just means Goku has less control over his power than Superman does.



> , Cell said he had the power to blast away a solar system(probally a wee overexageration, but regardless he's ALOT weaker than Goku ss3 or ss4)



Yet this was never demonstrated....



> , Vegeta could destroy a planet even when he was 'weak'



Filler.



> and Goku is countless times more powerful now,



You have no idea how many times more powerful, since power levels are not a logical scale.




> Goku can use instant transmission so could appear behind supes and do him in, or dodge all attacks.



IT takes a few seconds to lock onto a target. He would get killed before that. Not to mention Superman can move and react at faster than light speeds.



> it might be a decent fight but Goku could win even with ss2.



I doubt he would even be able make Superman feel any of his physical attacks since he is so physically weak in comparison, and as for energy attacks those are easy to dodge, not to mention Superman survives tougher stuff all the time, like the Mageddon Warhead.

So, in conclusion,


----------



## chaoserver (Jul 3, 2006)

1. If you not even touching a planet can make it resonate that says something.
2. True but Cell was fiendishly strong.
3. That was filler? Well Frieza destroyed one and he was extremely 'weak'.
As for the rest of your responses they are just opnion and cant be proven or disproven, which is a reason why these threads are against the rules :-/


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 3, 2006)

> 3. That was filler? Well Frieza destroyed one and he was extremely 'weak'.



Bardock was also filler


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

1. Yes, it says that your power is wasteful.

2. Compared to other DBZ characters. He didn't do much that would allow anyone to accurately gauge his strength against characters from another universe.

3. Weak how? Do you have proof of exactly how much stronger Goku is than Freiza?

4. Wrong, I used actual canon events and facts in my rebuttal. How is it an opinion that Superman can move and react at FTL speeds, when he has been seen doing so? How is it an opinion that he has survived tougher attacks, when he has been seen doing so?

5. So wait, threads about which characters would win in a fight are not allowed in a forum made specifically for that very purpose?  

6. I suggest you read the earlier pages in this thread, most of this stuff has been gone over already.


----------



## chaoserver (Jul 3, 2006)

Suzu Im reffering to the frieza saga.

1. Not it shows how much power he has -.-
2. If I recall he gauged it agaisnt quite a few :/
3. Goku managed to beat him then, in normal SS. Super saiyan 2 and 3 are obviously drastically more powerful(if your going to contest that fact I give up), and in GT(which is included in this for the sake of ss4) young Goku beats both Cell and Frieza if I recall. Thus obviously Goku is ridiculously more powerful.
5. I said topics like this are disallowed because the rules state that(no dbz or cosmic battles as they are too powerful).
6. Nah too many pages to read.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

1. Which is used wastefully.

2. A few other DBZ characters. Not things that can be used to measure actual power.

3. Yet do you have any proof of how much more powerful?

4. The rules said that DBZ or cosmics vs. characters that are too weak are not allowed. This match is a match where both characters are strong (and as has been mostly proved earlier in this thread, DBZ is losing).

5. Then don't make arguments that have already been refuted.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jul 3, 2006)

Since when have DBZ battles been disallowed? And saying they should be because "the characters are too powerful" is rather laughable when there are people who are a lot less than cosmics that would hand Goku and the gang their asses on a platter(including regular ol' Post-Crisis Supes).


----------



## chaoserver (Jul 3, 2006)

Look at the sticky that says only one rule, second post.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

They should be dissallowed because of the fanboys.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 3, 2006)

chaoserver said:
			
		

> Look at the sticky that says only one rule, second post.


 Read the post more carefully:



			
				Gooba said:
			
		

> First and only rule:
> 
> No DBZ vs *non DBZ or cosmic or really powerful superhero*


 So, as long as the other person in the fight is strong enough to fight the DBZ person, it's perfectly fine (yes, the post may not have been clear but what it's saying is No DBZ vs. someone who isn't another DBZ person, someone who isn't a cosmic, or someone who isn't really powerful threads).


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> Read the post more carefully:
> 
> So, as long as the other person in the fight is strong enough to fight the DBZ person, it's perfectly fine (yes, the post may not have been clear but what it's saying is No DBZ vs. someone who isn't another DBZ person, someone who isn't a cosmic, or someone who isn't really powerful threads).


Really Powerful = Superman

Go figure.


----------



## Mugiwara (Jul 3, 2006)

Goku would win!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Exte|2naL said:
			
		

> Goku would win!


Prime example of why fanboys should not be allowed.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 3, 2006)

Exte|2naL said:
			
		

> Goku would win!


 
Read and learn~


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 1. Yes, it says that your power is wasteful.
> 
> *No, it says that you have to much power for the real world to handle, Goku could control his power in the after life because the real world is much weaker.*
> 
> ...



I see Endless Mike you have been getting away with alot of Bull crap while I was gone, but that ends here.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

'Superman has no reflexes'

Tell me, Phenom, have you ever been diagnosed with ignorance? Because I could swear that I see all signs of it in you.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

> Maggot Brain'Superman has no reflexes



Compared to Goku he doesn't!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Ha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.


----------



## Bullet (Jul 3, 2006)

Superman wins! (he won pages ago)


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Care to proove that Bullet?


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Care to prove that Goku won?

So far you've only been spouting fanboy bullshit, you might try using logic to help your point. _Real_ logic, and _real_ facts, facts being something that is true, not what you think.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

> No, it says that you have to much power for the real world to handle, Goku could control his power in the after life because the real world is much weaker.



Not only is that not the point (Superman doesn't wastefully emit power all over, it's all concentrated in his body), but it's not even true. It was only stated that the afterlife made it easier to maintain higher power levels because for some reason he wouldn't get exhuasted so fast over there.



> Oh and Superman has?



Of course.

Pushing moons and other celestial objects, moving at high measurable speeds, surviving attacks whose magnitude is stated or can easily be determined. These are the feats that you deride as being worthless, but in reality they are the ones that matter most, since they give an actual idea of the character's power compared to things in the real world, as opposed to logic like "Well character A is stronger than character B who is stronger than character C who is stronger than character D who is stronger than character E who is stronger than character F who is stronger than character G who is stronger than character H who is stronger than.... etc. so that means character A must be really really strong!"



> Hell yes, The Kaioshins during the Buu Saga said that they could destroy Freiza with a single Ki Blast and Goku is a million times more powerful than any Kaioshin.



Where was it stated that he was a million times more powerful?

Answer: It wasn't.

You just pulled that out of your ass.



> LOL!  No you are wrong, Superman can not fight at lightspeed,



Of course he could, CBG already confirmed the existence of that issue where he has a whole conversation in less than a millisecond.



> he has no reflexes



Do you even listen to yourself?

If he had no reflexes, he wouldn't even be able to move.



> , he has not survived tougher attacks.



Mageddon Warhead, Omega Effect, magical transmutation (which only one DBZ character ever demonstrated resistance against), punches strong enough to destroy planets (No DBZ character has that kind of physical strength), etc.



> Superman got injured by a nuclear Missle



There are only two times I ever heard of that that happened, and one of them was after he was weakened by Kryptonite and the other was not even in continuity.

Not to mention Goku got hurt by a rock thrown at his head.

Also android 16 was doing to kill Cell by detonating an internal nuclear bomb right next to him, and everyone acted like it was going to work.

In addition, Goku has never demonstrated any kind of resistance against radiation, so even if the explosion from a nuke didn't kill him, he would probably die of radiation poisoning eventually if he got hit by one.



> I see Endless Mike you have been getting away with alot of Bull crap while I was gone, but that ends here.



Irony, thy name is Phenomenol.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Irony, thy name is Phenomenol.


You?re forgetting hypocricy, ignorance and stupidity.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

_Superman got injured by a nuclear Missle._

I can post at least 3 examples proving his nuke proof status. And I can cite a few more examples as well.

Foremost in my mind is I think in Hunter/Prey, where Superman stood at gorund zero a blast equivalent to a million nukes (confirmed by Waverider).

_Goku has never demonstrated any kind of resistance against radiation_

Well, foremost in my mind, Goku (and presumably, every other human and Saiyan) are susceptible to illness and disease.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jul 3, 2006)

If Goku could form a big enough Spirit Bomb, and could hide from Superman long enough, maybe he could win.

Also, as I said before, they would probably never fight. Both of the different series would probably be allied.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

_If Goku could form a big enough Spirit Bomb, and could hide from Superman long enough, maybe he could win._

Problem is, Spirit Bomb doesn't work on the pure of heart.

_Also, as I said before, they would probably never fight. Both of the different series would probably be allied._

Well, they rough each other up for a little bit, and then, a new (or old) evil conviently emerges out of nowhere and threatens the world (or whatever). Surprisingly (or not), it'll take the combined forces of the two to win.

That's how the laws work, I suppose.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jul 3, 2006)

Damn, got me there.

Maybe if Goku got every single fighter from the DBZ universe to help him fight Supes, he would win. Only then. XD


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Would Supes be allowed to call in the JLA?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

Just get him sun-dipped and strip away his morals without them returning.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jul 3, 2006)

Goku could instant transmission, so he could do it in a matter of seconds.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

So Superman Post-Crisis Sundipped and Bloodlusted?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Pushing moons and other celestial objects, moving at high measurable speeds, surviving attacks whose magnitude is stated or can easily be determined. These are the feats that you deride as being worthless, but in reality they are the ones that matter most, since they give an actual idea of the character's power compared to things in the real world, as opposed to logic like "Well character A is stronger than character B who is stronger than character C who is stronger than character D who is stronger than character E who is stronger than character F who is stronger than character G who is stronger than character H who is stronger than.... etc. so that means character A must be really really strong!"
> 
> *You really do not understand the Concepts of Ki and powerlevels do you? Goku and Supermans feats are very different. You are talking about a damn Martial Artist and a Super hero. Goku is not going to go around pushing planets or save someone from a burning building, Goku's feats are in battle, where In reality that is what this is all about a damn battle.*
> 
> ...



Endless Mike lets see how many people you feed off of now.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> Damn, got me there.
> 
> Maybe if Goku got every single fighter from the DBZ universe to help him fight Supes, he would win. Only then. XD



Then Superman calls in the JLA, the JSA, the Teen Titans, the Legion of Superheroes, the Doom Patrol, the Green Lantern Corps, the Seven Soldiers of Victory, and every other superhero team in DC.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

CBG DID post scans of that conversation, dickweed.

Superman's reflexes are far superior to Goku's.

Phenomenol, you should not talk about Common Sense, as you do not posess any yourself.

Few hundred megaton nuke > Planet destroying attack

You are fighting a losing battle, bub.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

_Magical Transmutation? What are you talking about Superman is weak against magic!_

Well, magic isn't per se Superman's weakness.

Magic, and any other Kryptonian (General Zod & Doomsday for example) manages to simply bypass Superman's bio-electric field, leaving Superman with his natural density as his defense.

And I can vouch for Superman resisting magical transmutation. Against Blaze during the Soul Search story.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

> You really do not understand the Concepts of Ki and powerlevels do you? Goku and Supermans feats are very different. You are talking about a damn Martial Artist and a Super hero. Goku is not going to go around pushing planets or save someone from a burning building, Goku's feats are in battle, where In reality that is what this is all about a damn battle.



Yet these 'feats of battle' mean nothing when deciding a victor across different fictional universes.

If you're pitting character X against character Y, and character X has moved the moon, but people claim character Y will win because character Y defeated character Z, that doesn't mean anything, since character Z is not a known variable, like the moon is.



> LOL! You really do not know what you are talking about, The Kaioshins stated that they could destroy Freiza with one blast. It is obvious that Goku was a more powerful because the Kaioshins could not fight any Buu toe to toe. Common Sense everything does not need to be stated if the reader was smart enough to figure it out on his own.



I never said he wasn't more powerful than they were, just that he wasn't a million times more powerful. So I ask you again: Where was it stated that he was a million times more powerful?



> No he did not. Where are you getting this from?



It was earlier in this very thread.




> Compared to Goku his reflexes are hell of slow.



Prove it.



> Uh, Superman only absorbed the energy of the Warhead BTW since Supes gets his power from a star,its hardly surprising that he would survive an explosion of solar energy.



The warhead used the opposite kind of energy than the kind he feeds on, and it had a hell of a lot more than any star, since it could destroy half of an entire galaxy.



> Magical Transmutation? What are you talking about Superman is weak against magic!





> Soul Search: Fighting alone in Hell (literally), Superman single-handedly defeated Blaze, a death goddess, in her own realm. This had never been accomplished before by anyone; Blaze has magical control over the very reality of her realm. The attacks that Superman fought off included magical transmutation into a demon, which he shook off through sheer willpower ; magical energy blasts from Blaze ; a magical spell that encased him in stone, which he subsequently shattered; and immersion in the lava lakes of this magical dimension.





> Also a DBZ character with enough Ki in his punch can shatter a planet.



No they can't, that has never been shown or even hinted at.

Prove it.



> Planet Destroting attack > Nuke period.



Are you even listening?

There is no evidence that DBZ ki attacks emit any form of harmful radiation.

Not to mention that if you wanted to and had the resources to (although it would be terribly inefficient and huge) you could build a nuclear warhead powerful enough to destroy a planet.

Oh, and you ignored the point about how Goku got hurt when he got hit on the head with a rock (if you want to use only low showings, I can too), and the point where Android 16's nuclear bomb could have killed Cell, and the point where you were lying about the effects of the DBZ afterlife, and the point about the Omega Effect, and no one has even attempted to address post 539 yet.



> Endless Mike lets see how many people you feed off of now.



Eh?

For some reason that sounds.... strange. And wrong. (Although the latter is typical of your posts).


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

> Few hundred megaton nuke > Planet destroying attack



Well not in terms of pure destructive power, but depending on the nature of the attack, my point was that the nuke could cause radiation poisoning that the stronger attack would not cause.


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## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Well not in terms of pure destructive power, but depending on the nature of the attack, my point was that the nuke could cause radiation poisoning that the stronger attack would not cause.


It could also destroy the core of the earth, effectively destroying the entire thing.

It's pretty much what most characters base their planet-destroying attacks on.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jul 3, 2006)

Goku could probably grab the nuke and throw it into space.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

From the physical strength feats shown so far, I doubt that DBZ characters have enough strength to throw anything heavier than a small rock to escape velocity.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> It could also destroy the core of the earth, effectively destroying the entire thing.
> 
> It's pretty much what most characters base their planet-destroying attacks on.



Um, no, not really.

An energy release of a few hundred megatons near the earth's core wouldn't really do anything to it.

If you had enough energy to destroy the earth's core, and somehow delivered it directly to the core, it would cause all life on the planet to die, and the planet to collapse in on itself and probably be covered in lava, but eventually it would cool down and resume a standard spherical shape, get new continents, etc.

It wouldn't explode.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jul 3, 2006)

An average super saiyan pushed two giant mountains apart, at the same time. 

Giant Mountain Pushing > Nuke


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 3, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> An average super saiyan pushed two giant mountains apart, at the same time.
> 
> Giant Mountain Pushing > Nuke



1. They weren't mountains, they were two halfs of a small rock outcropping.

2. That was anime filler and never happened in the manga.

3. It was Goku in SSJ2, an average SSJ would be SSJ1.

4. Depends on the yield of the nuke. Even Mount Everest could get destroyed if a multimegaton nuke was detonated inside of it.


----------



## The Fireball Kid (Jul 3, 2006)

Goku as a kid moves a gigantic boulder. :|


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

Gigantic compared to Goku, you mean. He was a very small kid, given, he did have above-human strength at the time.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 3, 2006)

Negative Approach said:
			
		

> Goku as a kid moves a gigantic boulder. :|


 And Superman moves a Pluto-sized planet, even though it had light speed thrusters pushing it in the other direction.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 3, 2006)

> Endless Mike said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 3, 2006)

_But Supes did not take on a nuke that could destroy a planet so your argument is shot._

Curious. . . can a million nukes going off at once destroy the Earth?

As for Captain Marvel, well, he has the magical advantage. Which, as I elaborated before, bypasses Superman's bio-electric field, leaving him his natural density.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 3, 2006)

It would depend on where on earth they were going off, I can imagine that, if they were all concentrated in a few areas, that they could easily destroy the earth.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 4, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> And Superman moves a Pluto-sized planet, even though it had light speed thrusters pushing it in the other direction.



He did that Sundipped..


----------



## Shiron (Jul 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> He did that Sundipped..


True, but he still did it and it's more of a feat than Goku has ever shown. Oh and if your going to say that it doesn't count becuase he was sundipped... then we might as well say that at least none of Goku's SSJ3 feats count; just as logical.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 4, 2006)

Battles can be fought in different ways, boyo.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 4, 2006)

> What Garbage are you chatting? Have you even read Hunter/prey, Doomsday, The Death of superman or how about JLA Rock Ages? Battles mean everything and Supes got his ASS beat in everyone of them. Where is that moon pushing, meggadon warhead absorbing strength? Oh yeah it is a fight.



When you're up against a superior opponent, you will most of the time get beaten. It's funny how you keep undestimating guys like Doomsday. (not to mention Supes has his fair share of victories against DD).


> Goku could of destroyed Kaioshin with a single Ki blast. proof in the Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta fight.



Care to elaborate?

And even if that's true, how does it prove Goku is 'a million times stronger'?



> Bwahahaha, load of crap



Go look it up yourself or ask CBG.



> Wrong, you did not even read the comic



And you did?



> DBZ can manipulate their Ki into a specific area of their choice, speed, strength etc.



But their strength has never been shown to exceed certain levels, and those levels are unimpressive compared to Superman.


> But Supes did not take on a nuke that could destroy a planet so your argument is shot.



No it's not, because that was not even my argument! I used that to argue against your statement that a nuke is always less than a planet - destroying attack.

Not to mention you completely ignored the radiation point.



> Are you on some type of medication? Goku getting hit by a rock is just for comedy.



So the very laws of physics change when something funny happens? Sorry, not buying it.



> he Bomb would not have killed Cell nor the Stronger Saiya-jins. If you watched that part carefully Goku and Vegeta and Piccolo braced themselves for the blast. They did not run nor hide like the rest of the humans. The Blast would not have killed Cell anyway because of his nucleus.



The mere fact that they were worried about getting hurt by a simple nuclear device (something that Superman shrugs off on a regular basis) and that Cell would be blown to pieces (not die, but still) proves that Superman is more durable.



> Endless Mike I was not lying about the DBZ afterlife, Just because you do not understand what it is about because you watched the DAMN DUB! So you are automatically wrong.



For the last time, I have watched some of the dub, some of the sub, and read some of the manga, so either provide a scan or screencap supporting your side or you lose. And you still didn't address the part about the Omega Effect, and post 539.



> Captain marvel laid supes out with two blows! period.



He could kill Goku with one.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 4, 2006)

> Curious. . . can a million nukes going off at once destroy the Earth?



They would have to be ridiculously, abnormally powerful nukes, like each one of them billions of trillions of times more powerful than any nuke ever built.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Care to elaborate?
> 
> And even if that's true, how does it prove Goku is 'a million times stronger'?
> 
> ...



The Omega beam effect was rubbish, if you knew anything about that Darkseid was powerd down very much, so it is irrelevant.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 4, 2006)

> 1. They weren't mountains, they were two halfs of a small rock outcropping



This is nothing but straight crap. Mike you really got to stop.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> This is nothing but straight crap. Mike you really got to stop.


The hypocricy, it won't stop!


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 4, 2006)

> Anyone that can destroy you with a single blast the size of a tennis ball pretty much says it all.



Really, so because I could destroy a car with a hand grenade, that means I'm a million times more powerful than a car?



> You go get it. It is obvious that you do not know what you are talking about.



Got it. Post 653.



> No Superman's strength in combat is never impressive.Then why in doomsday wars does he struggle (and yes he is struggling because you can actually see his face and he admits it) to stop an aeroplane from crashing? (and you think DBZ has inconsistances?) On the other hand Gohan before he became mystic casually in his base form lifts and carries a aeroplane full of people in the buu saga.Superman in battle is unimpressive period.



It doesn't matter that Superman has low showings, the fact is that his high showings exist.

Just because one character's high showings are greater than another character's low showings doesn't mean that the first character is stronger.

What you have to do is compare both characters' high showings.

Using your logic, since Spider-man once lifted a train car, and the Hulk was once knocked out by a cement truck, that means Spider-man is stronger than the Hulk, which is obviously not true.



> You really do not understand how the concept of Plot induced Stupidity works do you? I know why don't I post where MartianManhunter and Superman struggle to lift a five ton tanker!



We don't use stupid CBR rules here. The point is that was not a low showing, since they had never encountered a nuclear device before (that we saw).



> Some does not cut it. Actually you speak and give info as if you only watched the Dub



You speak and give info as if you were a five year old with Downs' Syndrome, but I don't try to dismiss your arguments because of it. Now address my points and stop dodging them.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 4, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> This is nothing but straight crap. Mike you really got to stop.



You yourself posted the gif!

Do you know what a real mountain looks like?



Something like that.

What you posted were two halfs of a small rock formation.

Not to mention it was not canon anyway and never appeared in the manga.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 4, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Really, so because I could destroy a car with a hand grenade, that means I'm a million times more powerful than a car?
> 
> *Not the same, that Grenade is not your own strength nor power! Common sense.*
> 
> ...



I do not dodge your opinions! They do not have to be dodged you have no argument.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 4, 2006)

A hard match to judge given how vague Gokus actual strength and speed are. Using some given statements you can predict some strengths though.

Goku's Speed

Roshi stated that he could run around the world in a few hours in DB. By the end of DB Goku had grown significantly stronger than Roshi. Meaning Beginning of DBZ Goku with a powerlevel in the mid 100s could run around the world faster than that.
By end of the Freiza saga he had grown to a powerlevel of 8 digits. He than undergoes 2 more transformations making his pwerlevel throught the roof. Power in DBZ can be transferred to different areas in DBZ, so you can imagine what his speed at the end of DBZ must be. (Proven by Trunks)
Also note Gotenks flys around the world multiple times in a matter of seconds, and base Goku in DBGT =/= SSJ3 Gotenks. 
He also moves so quickly, on Namek, that he appears to be standing still while beams seemingly pass through him.

In DB he dodges lightning, and in DBZ ki blasts that reach the moon in a couple of seconds.

On top of that, his 'IT' moves multiple times faster than light, allowing him to esacape and attack enemies of any speed.

Goku's Strength
This area is very vague, but note that hes never been able to not lift something. Even as a child he could lift a rock looking to weigh many tons. Again, his strength at the end of DBZ is in the Hundreds of Millions. A average human has a power of 5. 
Average person can lift about 100 pounds.
100 x 100000000(atleast)= 10,000,000,000 pounds or about 5,000,000 tons.
Furthermore, Gokus base strength in the beginning of GT =/= to this. Imagine SSJ1,2,3, Golden Oozaru(sp) (strength 100x) and SSJ4(which is >Golden Oozaru).

He also hurts people, who can take planet destroing blasts eg Frieza, Cell, Buu, by punching them.

Gokus Power
18000 Vegita can destroy the planet. Cell states he can destroy the universe. Buu has destroyed universes. SSJ3 Goku is > than everyone all of these characters. SSJ4 Goku is evenmore ridiculously powerful. Hell, his powering up to SSJ3 nearly destroyed the earth.
Roshi in DB destroyed the sun with a kamehameha, and piccolo did the same with just a hand ki blast. SSJ4 Goku is disgustingly stronger. Point being, he could prolly do the same by farting. 

Gokus Ability
Ki blasts powerful enough to destroy worlds. Solar Flare- blinds you through your eyelids. A technique that multilies his strength by as much as 20. A ki disk that can cut through solid objects (much like Krillins destructo disk). Excessive training in martial arts, and having a style with no weak spots. He has a lot of experience and no technique works on him twice. 

Goku's Stamina
He can take planet destroying blasts dace on. Nuff said.

Sorry bout how long it is.
But I think ppl are both under-rating and over-rating Gokus power.


P.S. Real physics dont apply in the DBZ world. It is almost 100% probable that they moved faster than light.

Also things like Mystic Gohan taking forever to reach Buu is PIS, or for development.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

Base form Goku isn't that strong. It's actually been proven in the actual manga. He's under 40 tons at base form.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Base form Goku isn't that strong. It's actually been proven in the actual manga. He's under 40 tons at base form.



How come you have no knowledge of DBZ? 

First off it is plot induced stupidity, second The Kaioshins planet is 10 times earth's gravity that was 400 tons. Hell Goku was lifting 20-40 tons when he was a child in Dragonball.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

> Not the same, that Grenade is not your own strength nor power! Common sense.



Okay, so, assuming I was a mutant that could create grenades out of thin air, does that make me a million times more powerful than a car?



> That has been disprooven, hell Comic Book Guy even said that was not accurate enough and very questionable. Show me some in battle.



Wrong, he said that it was arguable, yet you are not providing any arguments against it. The fact that he did it means he can think and react that fast, unless you think he somehow magically gets weaker whenever he is in a battle.



> Exactly, I have said this earlier in this thread.



Then why are you trying to compare Superman's low showings to Goku's high showings?



> Planet Destroying > Nuclear device.



And whenever someone fired off a blast that was stated to be planet - destroying, they were terrified of it, too. I can't think of a single time in the entire history of the series when an attack was stated to be powerful enough to destroy a planet and no one freaked out over it.



> I do not dodge your opinions! They do not have to be dodged you have no argument



Of course I do, you're just ignoring them.

Answer post 539.

Answer Superman's far superior speed and physical strength.

Answer the Mageddon Warhead, Omega Effect, being inside exploding moons, the DBZ afterlife, your 'comedy excuses bad showings' bullshit, and all that other stuff.


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## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> How come you have no knowledge of DBZ?
> 
> First off it is plot induced stupidity, second The Kaioshins planet is 10 times earth's gravity that was 400 tons. Hell Goku was lifting 20-40 tons when he was a child in Dragonball.



How come you pull shit out your ass regularly? Is your ass the next N.O.?

PIS was hardly at work there. He just couldn't lift 40 tons. And once again, you need a lesson in gravitation.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> How come you have no knowledge of DBZ?
> 
> First off it is plot induced stupidity, second The Kaioshins planet is 10 times earth's gravity that was 400 tons. Hell Goku was lifting 20-40 tons when he was a child in Dragonball.



1. Stupid CBR rule inapplicable.

2. That's not how it works. 40 tons is 40 tons no matter what gravity it is in, it just has different mass. I already explained this to you.

3. The gravity of that planet was never stated in the first place.

4. Prove he was lifting that much in DB.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Okay, so, assuming I was a mutant that could create grenades out of thin air, does that make me a million times more powerful than a car?
> 
> *Stop with the weak analogies, it is not the same thing and know because the grenades are not your own power. Remember Ki is spirit ferom with in that is greater than Kaioshins Ki! Ki in DBZ is everything.*
> 
> ...



I have already answered all of that you are avoiding arguments because you do not know a damn thing about Superman or Goku. All you need to do is read from page 10 on up and you will see that all the old as questions that you are bringing up has been answered.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

> Base form Goku isn't that strong. It's actually been proven in the actual manga. He's under 40 tons at base form.



Phenomenol beat me to it.




> Okay, so, assuming I was a mutant that could create grenades out of thin air, does that make me a million times more powerful than a car?



Bad analogy. Yes you would be more powerful if all the energy inside the grenades came from you. Instead of you just magically creating them. 
In DBZ ki is transferred to areas like speed and strength (as viewed and explained with Trunks). Your powerlevel is literally what it states- 'how powerful you are'. So if you could create a energy blast with the power to destroy a car, since the energy used for the explosion is coming from your ki, yes you would be more powerful than a car.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Thankyou SSJKrillin! Hell, at least someone here knows what the hell they are talking about!


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## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Phenomenol beat me to it.


So you agree with Phenom? Can someone slap oneself hard enough to knock some sense into them? If so, you must do it. Because if you agree to 400 tons... where the hell did you get 5,000,000 tons in your original post? Are you two sharing the same N.O.?


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> So you agree with Phenom? Can someone slap oneself hard enough to knock some sense into them? If so, you must do it. Because if you agree to 400 tons... where the hell did you get 5,000,000 tons in your original post? Are you two sharing the same N.O.?



just relax and enjoy the show.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> A hard match to judge given how vague Gokus actual strength and speed are. Using some given statements you can predict some strengths though.



Okay, let's see.



> Goku's Speed
> 
> Roshi stated that he could run around the world in a few hours in DB.



Don't remember that.




> By the end of DB Goku had grown significantly stronger than Roshi. Meaning Beginning of DBZ Goku with a powerlevel in the mid 100s could run around the world faster than that.



If the first part is true, then this would be logically true as well. However, you don't know how much faster.



> By end of the Freiza saga he had grown to a powerlevel of 8 digits. He than undergoes 2 more transformations making his pwerlevel throught the roof. Power in DBZ can be transferred to different areas in DBZ, so you can imagine what his speed at the end of DBZ must be. (Proven by Trunks)



Um, no, not really. You see, power levels are not a linear or logical scale (refer to the farmer example, etc.) so it's impossible to say exactly how much stronger someone has gotten.



> Also note Gotenks flys around the world multiple times in a matter of seconds, and base Goku in DBGT =/= SSJ3 Gotenks.



This was addressed in the DBZ speed thread. He had at most 30 minutes to fly around the world, it wasn't a matter of seconds, and immediately afterwards it took him a whole minute to reach Buu's house.



> He also moves so quickly, on Namek, that he appears to be standing still while beams seemingly pass through him.



Yet the distance he moved (about 1 foot to either side) is so small that no great speed is required for this.



> In DB he dodges lightning



Lightning in the atmosphere typically travels at only a small fraction of the speed of light. Not to mention you don't need to be faster or as fast as something to dodge it.



> , and in DBZ ki blasts that reach the moon in a couple of seconds.



Yet we never see them travelling that fast when used in battle.



> On top of that, his 'IT' moves multiple times faster than light, allowing him to esacape and attack enemies of any speed.



Yet it takes a second or so to lock on to a power level and teleport to it, more than enough time to have Superman beat the crap out of him.



> Goku's Strength
> This area is very vague, but note that hes never been able to not lift something.



Logical fallacy. Just because someone never failed to do something doesn't mean that they would never fail to do something much more difficult.



> Even as a child he could lift a rock looking to weigh many tons.



"Looking" like it weighed so - and - so tons is subjective, and not evidence.



> Again, his strength at the end of DBZ is in the Hundreds of Millions. A average human has a power of 5.
> Average person can lift about 100 pounds.
> 100 x 100000000(atleast)= 10,000,000,000 pounds or about 5,000,000 tons.
> Furthermore, Gokus base strength in the beginning of GT =/= to this. Imagine SSJ1,2,3, Golden Oozaru(sp) (strength 100x) and SSJ4(which is >Golden Oozaru).



False. Power levels are not a linear or logical scale. Furthermore, they increase different things at much different rates. Physical strength is not increased anywhere near energy projection (which is what DBZ power seems to be all about).



> He also hurts people, who can take planet destroing blasts eg Frieza, Cell, Buu, by punching them.



Freiza only took a small brunt of an exploding planet since he was on the surface. The only times Cell was stated to be hit by an attack powerful enough to destroy a planet, it completely vaporized parts of him and he only survived because there were other parts of him left. Buu never took an attack like this, and was splattered into pieces even when he just took a small part of an exploding planet by being away from it (many times).
Gokus Power



> 18000 Vegita can destroy the planet.



Or so he claims.



> Cell states he can destroy the universe.



He said solar system. That's a far cry from universe.



> Buu has destroyed universes.



Wrong, in the anime he destroyed 12 galaxies over a very long, undefined period of time, and in the manga (which is higher canon) he only destroyed several hundred planets.



> SSJ3 Goku is > than everyone all of these characters.



Wrong again. Goku was losing to Kid Buu and only won because of the Genki Dama and the help of the Dragonballs.



> SSJ4 Goku is evenmore ridiculously powerful. Hell, his powering up to SSJ3 nearly destroyed the earth.



Going by feats, SSJ4 is weaker.



> Roshi in DB destroyed the sun with a kamehameha



Oh my god, have you even watched the show or read the manga?

He destroyed the moon!

How the hell can you confuse the moon with the sun? I bet even Phenomenol would call BS on this claim.



> , and piccolo did the same with just a hand ki blast.



Again, moon, not sun.



> SSJ4 Goku is disgustingly stronger.



You have no proof of how much stronger.



> Point being, he could prolly do the same by farting.



If that were true, the earth would blow up every time he had indigestion.



> Gokus Ability
> Ki blasts powerful enough to destroy worlds.



Goku has never destroyed a planet.



> Solar Flare- blinds you through your eyelids.



Which would just make Superman stronger since he is powered by solar energy. And he routinely goes into the sun so it wouldn't affect his sight either.



> A technique that multilies his strength by as much as 20.



It multiplies his power. Never stated to mean physical strength.



> A ki disk that can cut through solid objects (much like Krillins destructo disk).



And....?



> Excessive training in martial arts, and having a style with no weak spots.



Then how come he gets beaten all the time?



> He has a lot of experience



Not as much as Superman does, or do I have to bring up the '1000 years in Valhalla' point again?



> and no technique works on him twice.



Oh, I suppose that's why he's only been hurt by a punch or a ki blast once?

He's not Doomsday.



> Goku's Stamina
> He can take planet destroying blasts dace on. Nuff said.



When has he ever done this?



> Sorry bout how long it is.



No problem, I've seen much longer.



> But I think ppl are both under-rating and over-rating Gokus power.



And you fall into the latter category. Honestly, Roshi destroying the sun? 




> P.S. Real physics dont apply in the DBZ world. It is almost 100% probable that they moved faster than light.



Does not compute.

If real physics didn't apply, then all analysis would be meaningless, and it would be equally likely that they did or didn't move faster than light, in other words, about 50%.

However, real physics do apply, since things like gravity and humans exist, which can't exist without physics identical or very similar to our own.



> Also things like Mystic Gohan taking forever to reach Buu is PIS, or for development.



That is just an excuse, we don't use stupid CBR rules like "PIS" or "SMvFL" here. If it happened, it happened.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> just relax and enjoy the show.



Nah, I'd rather not watch another episode of "The Phenomenol show" 

I've lost countless brain cells just watching the pilot.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

I arrived at my numbers going a different route. This scene wasnt serious. Everything about it is comedy.

But going your way still works.
400 x 100 (ssj) x 100 (ssj2) x 100 (ssj3) x atleast 100 (ssj4 which is greater than golden oozaru). 

40,000,000,000

Thats not even factoring the fact that base Goku in DBGT is as powerful as majin Buu. Add in all his transformations and voila- You just got owned.

Further evidence, as phenom said, Goku could lift almost that weight as a child with a powerlevel in the hundreds.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

> Stop with the weak analogies, it is not the same thing and know because the grenades are not your own power. Remember Ki is spirit ferom with in that is greater than Kaioshins Ki! Ki in DBZ is everything.



How would the ability to create grenades out of thin air not be my own power?

Okay, I'll try one more time: If I had the power to launch ki attacks of the same size and power as a grenade, does that make me a million times stronger than a car?



> No he can not, I said show me in combat not chasing after shit which is stupid anybody can do that in that situation. Give me something different


.

Anybody can have an entire conversation in nanoseconds?

You can't just ignore feats because you don't like them. That feat proves that he can think and react that fast, and there is no logical reason why he would be unable to do so in a battle.



> Superman's Showing in battle is where it counts.



Wrong, what counts are showings that can be compared to objects that exist in the real world or in other fictional universes. Battles against other characters are not as important because they don't give as good of an indicator of power.

If you were walking down the street, and you saw one guy get into a fight with another guy and knock him out, then you saw a third guy pick up a full trash can and throw it 100 feet, who would you rather pick a fight with, the first or the third guy?



> That won't happen it sounds like a child with dreams wrote that.



In other words, you have no refutation and you give up. Good to know.



> I have already answered all of that you are avoiding arguments because you do not know a damn thing about Superman or Goku. All you need to do is read from page 10 on up and you will see that all the old as questions that you are bringing up has been answered.



I've read the whole thread, and you have just been being a stubborn fanboy this whole time and not refuting anything, all your arguments have been debunked dozens of times but you just keep on coming, now answer the points I have brought up or you will forfeit this debate by default.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Bad analogy. Yes you would be more powerful if all the energy inside the grenades came from you. Instead of you just magically creating them.
> In DBZ ki is transferred to areas like speed and strength (as viewed and explained with Trunks). Your powerlevel is literally what it states- 'how powerful you are'. So if you could create a energy blast with the power to destroy a car, since the energy used for the explosion is coming from your ki, yes you would be more powerful than a car.



A million times more powerful?

Because that is what he claimed.

And ki in DBZ powers up different areas differently. It gives much more power to energy projection than it does to speed or physical strength.


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## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> I arrived at my numbers going a different route. This scene wasnt serious. Everything about it is comedy.
> 
> But going your way still works.
> 400 x 100 (ssj) x 100 (ssj2) x 100 (ssj3) x atleast 100 (ssj4 which is greater than golden oozaru).
> ...



First off, by feats ALONE, SSJ4 Kakarotto is weaker than SSJ3.

Now, as for your numbers.... you're clearly overestimating Kakarotto's strength. People don't realize that Saiya-jin ARE NOT physical beings. They're energy beings. What grows with a power increase is their ki. They're strength, speed and durability grow, but not as expotentially as great as their ki. Why do you think they resort to ki blast for their coup de grace? Because they know their physical power isn't greater than their ki. This is something ANYONE with eyes, ears and a middle school comprehension level can understand.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Not to mention it was never said "Each SSJ mode increases a Saiya-jin's physical strength by however many times"


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## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

True. But don't worry, the "Phenomenol Show" is on. We can expect the same great antics from him eventually that will disprove all logic known to man.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> A million times more powerful?
> 
> Because that is what he claimed.
> 
> And ki in DBZ powers up different areas differently. It gives much more power to energy projection than it does to speed or physical strength.





> First off, by feats ALONE, SSJ4 Kakarotto is weaker than SSJ3.
> 
> Now, as for your numbers.... you're clearly overestimating Kakarotto's strength. People don't realize that Saiya-jin ARE NOT physical beings. They're energy beings. What grows with a power increase is their ki. They're strength, speed and durability grow, but not as expotentially as great as their ki. Why do you think they resort to ki blast for their coup de grace? Because they know their physical power isn't greater than their ki. This is something ANYONE with eyes, ears and a middle school comprehension level can understand.



You two really do not know anything do you? with every post you proove it. Ki in DBZ is everything it increases speed strenght etc. DBZ can manipulate their Ki into any specific area. Meaning they can charge all of their Ki into a blast or speed or a punch. Just because you see them charge all theri ki into one specific area which is into a blast that is what exactly they are doing. Ki is all of their physical attributes not just Ki blast, otherwise they will be unbalanced!


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## Countach (Jul 5, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> True. But don't worry, the "Phenomenol Show" is on. We can expect the same great antics from him eventually that will disprove all logic known to man.



i think u fail to realize that when a ssj goes ssj2 the power level increase by base ten, so it's 1000 not 100, anf when u go to ssj 3 u get 555434.89(i have the scan to prove it) and when u go ssj4 u become god, and only other ssj4 can fight with u, so

superman < goku


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

> superman < goku



I see people posting it but it has yet to be done!


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

mkay




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Don't remember that.



Than i guess it never happened.



> Um, no, not really. You see, power levels are not a linear or logical scale (refer to the farmer example, etc.) so it's impossible to say exactly how much stronger someone has gotten.



Transformations are, as are oozaru and kaio-kan



> This was addressed in the DBZ speed thread. He had at most 30 minutes to fly around the world, it wasn't a matter of seconds, and immediately afterwards it took him a whole minute to reach Buu's house.



And the ki trails? Theres a pic of like 8 being around the world at one point. Cant remember if hes just ssj or not though.




> Yet the distance he moved (about 1 foot to either side) is so small that no great speed is required for this.



Dont remember much of the scene. Havent read it in ages. Phenom, do the ginyu forde fly through him. I remember the ki blasts, but not if they do.

Still to avoid the beams, and return to your original spot so quickly, that some of the strongest fighters in the universe think you are still standing still... pretty impressive.



> Lightning in the atmosphere typically travels at only a small fraction of the speed of light. Not to mention you don't need to be faster or as fast as something to dodge it.



Still DB Goku. Power very small. DBZ SSJ3 Goku, power very big.




> Yet we never see them travelling that fast when used in battle.



The scene would be over before it began if they were animated at the speed they are supposed to be moving.



> Yet it takes a second or so to lock on to a power level and teleport to it, more than enough time to have Superman beat the crap out of him.


If hes fighting, hes always locked onto his power.



> Logical fallacy. Just because someone never failed to do something doesn't mean that they would never fail to do something much more difficult.



What was meant was that was you shouldnt say that he cant lift something when you have no idea what he is capable of.




> "Looking" like it weighed so - and - so tons is subjective, and not evidence.



Find a rock that big that weighs a couple pounds. 




> False. Power levels are not a linear or logical scale. Furthermore, they increase different things at much different rates. Physical strength is not increased anywhere near energy projection (which is what DBZ power seems to be all about).



SSJ1 and Oozaru are. Therefore we can deduce.




> Freiza only took a small brunt of an exploding planet since he was on the surface. The only times Cell was stated to be hit by an attack powerful enough to destroy a planet, it completely vaporized parts of him and he only survived because there were other parts of him left. Buu never took an attack like this, and was splattered into pieces even when he just took a small part of an exploding planet by being away from it (many times).



Vegetas attack was overkill for a planet. Why would Buu waste energy protecting himself when he can simply regenerate.



> Or so he claims.



Its stated in the manga in a serious manner. Therefore a fact. Hes not trying to trick the reader.




> He said solar system. That's a far cry from universe.



oops my bad. meant solar system.



> Wrong, in the anime he destroyed 12 galaxies over a very long, undefined period of time, and in the manga (which is higher canon) he only destroyed several hundred planets.



i'll leave buu alone than, as the time frame is vague.



> Wrong again. Goku was losing to Kid Buu and only won because of the Genki Dama and the help of the Dragonballs.



Re-read. He states he had the power to defeat him but wanted to give Vegeta a chance. Genki dama was so that the universe wouldnt have to rely on him anymore.




> Going by feats, SSJ4 is weaker.



Going by logic he is stronger. Oozaru vegeta is 10x stronger. Golden Oozaru is much more than that (he beat bebi no sweat. bebi was stronger than ssj3 goku). SSJ4 Goku is stronger than Oozaru.




> Oh my god, have you even watched the show or read the manga?
> 
> He destroyed the moon!



Sorry i wrote it rushed. You obviously understand that i meant moon.




> Again, moon, not sun.



Again my mistake. You understood my point, i mearly mixed words.



> You have no proof of how much stronger.



His ki increased so his power increased. Ki = power. Power= speed and strength.




> If that were true, the earth would blow up every time he had indigestion.



Lucky for everyone he never farted.




> Goku has never destroyed a planet.



When has he had to? Villans weaker have though, and hes much stronger.




> It multiplies his power. Never stated to mean physical strength.



Trunks RoSaT. Go back and read. 




> Then how come he gets beaten all the time?



His form is still flawless, as pointed out by many a Z-fighter. He's up against stronger opponents.




> Oh, I suppose that's why he's only been hurt by a punch or a ki blast once?



Completely different. Punch isnt a technique like say, Solar Flare, or that ice attack the 3star dragon(2 or 3?). For those he finds counters. Look at the cell games when cell busts out everyone elses tricks, and he merks him.





> When has he ever done this?



Freiza has. And one can dispute that everyblast past a point was potenically world destroying. Esp. if piccolo and roshi at their pwrlvls could destroy the moon.




> And you fall into the latter category. Honestly, Roshi destroying the sun?



Again a typo. chill with that.




> Does not compute.
> 
> If real physics didn't apply, then all analysis would be meaningless, and it would be equally likely that they did or didn't move faster than light, in other words, about 50%.
> 
> However, real physics do apply, since things like gravity and humans exist, which can't exist without physics identical or very similar to our own.



Shounen manga. Not all real rules apply.



> That is just an excuse, we don't use stupid CBR rules like "PIS" or "SMvFL" here. If it happened, it happened.




Please. Its a shounen manga. not everything need to make sense. Mr Satan gets punched by superpowered characters on a regular, and survives with just a bump.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You two really do not know anything do you? with every post you proove it. Ki in DBZ is everything it increases speed strenght etc. DBZ can manipulate their Ki into any specific area. Meaning they can charge all of their Ki into a blast or speed or a punch. Just because you see them charge all theri ki into one specific area which is into a blast that is what exactly they are doing. Ki is all of their physical attributes not just Ki blast, otherwise they will be unbalanced!



Wrong, it increases all stats to some extent, but some far more than others.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> i think u fail to realize that when a ssj goes ssj2 the power level increase by base ten, so it's 1000 not 100, anf when u go to ssj 3 u get 555434.89(i have the scan to prove it) and when u go ssj4 u become god, and only other ssj4 can fight with u, so
> 
> superman < goku



WTF are you talking about?:S


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Wrong, it increases all stats to some extent, but some far more than others.




DBZ fighters have pushed and knocked back ki blasts that are fighters strongest attacks.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Wrong, it increases all stats to some extent, but some far more than others.






> Originally posted by *SSJKrillin*
> DBZ fighters have pushed and knocked back ki blasts that are fighters strongest attacks.



Thankyou SSJKrillin, Mike you have no Idea what the hell you are talking about. If you do not know shut tp.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenom, do burter and jeice actually fly through goku is what i meant. i cant seem to remember (i read the manga ages ago). Regardless, what goku did should be considered ftl.


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## Countach (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> WTF are you talking about?:S



that was my phelomel impersonation

oh and

Superman>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goku


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## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Phenom, do burter and jeice actually fly through goku is what i meant. i cant seem to remember (i read the manga ages ago). Regardless, what goku did should be considered ftl.



No they fly by him to test his spirit but they do not fly through him. You are right that still is a faster than light feat.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 5, 2006)

All fast movement should be considered FTL, if it is Goku who performs the fast movement.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> All fast movement should be considered FTL, if it is Goku who performs the fast movement.



nah frieza and those guys too.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Than i guess it never happened.



No need to get sarcastic.

Post a scan, or at least mention when it happened so other people can look it up.



> Transformations are, as are oozaru and kaio-kan


No, not really, because it never states precisely which stats they are talking about.



> And the ki trails? Theres a pic of like 8 being around the world at one point. Cant remember if hes just ssj or not though.



Already addressed in the DBZ speed thread. It's just an artist's technique to show movement across a longer time with less art. I could show you comic panels with Spider-man appearing to be in multiple places at once, does that mean he is?



> Dont remember much of the scene. Havent read it in ages. Phenom, do the ginyu forde fly through him. I remember the ki blasts, but not if they do.
> 
> Still to avoid the beams, and return to your original spot so quickly, that some of the strongest fighters in the universe think you are still standing still... pretty impressive.



Don't ask him, he's a liar.

What happened is that their attacks seemed to go through him, but then people noticed extra footprints to the side of him, to see that he had just moved out of the way really fast.



> Still DB Goku. Power very small. DBZ SSJ3 Goku, power very big.



Yet you have no concrete evidence of how much bigger. So you can't say it means anything unless you know this.



> The scene would be over before it began if they were animated at the speed they are supposed to be moving.



That's a cop - out excuse. If they don't move that fast, they don't move that fast.



> If hes fighting, hes always locked onto his power.



Wrong, it always takes him a second to lock on to the spot he wants to move to. Not to mention he only actually used this ability in battle once, as part of a trick to try to beat Cell.



> What was meant was that was you shouldnt say that he cant lift something when you have no idea what he is capable of.



That's ass - backwards. You don't assume that if a guy can lift a 20 pound rock without trouble, he can lift a mountain. You take the strongest thing he has lifted and use that as an upper limit. Not to mention Goku was visibly struggling to lift a lot of things.



> Find a rock that big that weighs a couple pounds.



Strawman. I never said it only weighed a few pounts, just that you were making unfounded assumptions based on the way something "looked".



> SSJ1 and Oozaru are. Therefore we can deduce.



Wrong, it was never stated how much SSJ1 increases, or for either one it didn't say what stats they were talking about.



> Vegetas attack was overkill for a planet. Why would Buu waste energy protecting himself when he can simply regenerate.



You're operating under the premise that he was capable of blocking the attack and coming up with excuses for why he didn't, instead of taking the logical route and deducing that he wasn't able to block the attack.



> Its stated in the manga in a serious manner. Therefore a fact. Hes not trying to trick the reader.



No, but he could have been trying to trick Goku, getting him to try to block the beam and making sure he didn't try to dodge it.



> Re-read. He states he had the power to defeat him but wanted to give Vegeta a chance. Genki dama was so that the universe wouldnt have to rely on him anymore.



That was fat Buu. I'm talking about Kid Buu.



> Going by logic he is stronger. Oozaru vegeta is 10x stronger. Golden Oozaru is much more than that (he beat bebi no sweat. bebi was stronger than ssj3 goku). SSJ4 Goku is stronger than Oozaru.



Yet he never did anything anywhere near as impressive as what SSJ3 Goku did. As you stated, SSJ3 Goku shook the earth by powering up, SSJ4 didn't even shake the local area.



> Sorry i wrote it rushed. You obviously understand that i meant moon.



You'll have to excuse me because with some of the people I've talked to, saying something like that would not be unexpected.



> Again my mistake. You understood my point, i mearly mixed words.



See above.



> His ki increased so his power increased. Ki = power. Power= speed and strength.



That doesn't explain how much stronger he is, not to mention it's wrong. DBZ ki increases energy projection much more than anything else. With a 20% increase in ki, you might get a 1% increase in physical strength, a 5% increase in speed, and a 40% increase in energy projection. (These numbers are just made up as examples to illustrate the idea).



> Lucky for everyone he never farted.



Wait, you start with the unfounded assertion that he could blow up the earth by farting, I point out that if he could, why is the earth still there, and you assume that he must have never farted ever? That is more ass - backwards logic. You're taking an unfounded premise and using it as the only piece of evidence to justify a conclusion that is against common sense. How about some actual proof of.... well, anything you say?



> When has he had to? Villans weaker have though, and hes much stronger.



Just because someone is weaker than you doesn't mean you can do everything they can.



> Trunks RoSaT. Go back and read.



WTF is that supposed to mean?



> His form is still flawless, as pointed out by many a Z-fighter. He's up against stronger opponents.



Then that means this form will be useless against Superman.



> Completely different. Punch isnt a technique like say, Solar Flare, or that ice attack the 3star dragon(2 or 3?). For those he finds counters. Look at the cell games when cell busts out everyone elses tricks, and he merks him.



Right, and, with those attacks belonging to all of his friends and allies, it's totally inconcievable that he had, I don't know, seen them before and prepared for them?



> Freiza has. And one can dispute that everyblast past a point was potenically world destroying. Esp. if piccolo and roshi at their pwrlvls could destroy the moon.



For the last time, Freiza was on the surface of an exploding planet. That's hardly comparable to taking all the energy required to destroy a planet all focused at you at once.

And if every blast was planet - destroying, then how come the characters always make a huge point of freaking out and acting scared whenever someone says a blast is powerful enough to destroy a planet?



> Again a typo. chill with that.



Sorry, but as I said, from other debators I have seen I wouldn't be surprised if that was meant to be serious.



> Shounen manga. Not all real rules apply.



Translation: I'm just going to ignore everything you just said and repeat my already - debunked claim over again!



> Please. Its a shounen manga. not everything need to make sense. Mr Satan gets punched by superpowered characters on a regular, and survives with just a bump.



Ever think they might be holding back?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> DBZ fighters have pushed and knocked back ki blasts that are fighters strongest attacks.



And?

Those ki blasts damage enemies by exploding and releasing the power stored inside them. They don't damage enemies with their kinetic energy, since it isn't that high.

If I had good enough reflexes, I could catch a grenade someone threw at me at throw it back before it exploded. Does that mean I'm strong enough to do the same amount of damage as a grenade if I punch something?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Thankyou SSJKrillin, Mike you have no Idea what the hell you are talking about. If you do not know shut tp.



Who is being the 'cheerleader' now?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No they fly by him to test his spirit but they do not fly through him. You are right that still is a faster than light feat.



Then show the calculations that prove it's faster than light.

Oh, wait, you can't!


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

> Don't ask him, he's a liar.



Mike you whole entire post is bull crap! First you know nothing of Superman nor Dragonball You had to use someone else's opinions from another forum that prooves right their you know nothing about the two characters that we are discussing.

Just stop it mike.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

For.
The.
Last.
Fucking.
Time.

I only linked to that post because it provided issue numbers!

You really expect me to look all those issue numbers up myself?

The people who made that worked long and hard on it, as a resource for this very kind of debate. Why not use it?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> For.
> The.
> Last.
> Fucking.
> ...



Mike you need to stop with the name calling because it shows that you lost your composure.

please lets not start a flame war lets be cool. okay babycakes


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

alrighty



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Post a scan, or at least mention when it happened so other people can look it up.



Around the time he went to train with roshi i believe. DB



> No, not really, because it never states precisely which stats they are talking about.



It increases powerlevel. Powerlevel=ki, strength, speed etc. Savy?



> Already addressed in the DBZ speed thread. It's just an artist's technique to show movement across a longer time with less art. I could show you comic panels with Spider-man appearing to be in multiple places at once, does that mean he is?



I'll check it out.



> Don't ask him, he's a liar.
> 
> What happened is that their attacks seemed to go through him, but then people noticed extra footprints to the side of him, to see that he had just moved out of the way really fast.



I remember what you are talking about- as i said he has some of the universes strongest fighters watching him dodge ki blasts, but all they see is him standing still. Thats impressive.




> Yet you have no concrete evidence of how much bigger. So you can't say it means anything unless you know this.


K than we'll deal with mins. 250 Db Goku (thats generous for the time) compared to 15000000 DBZ SSJ Goku (note only first level). Thats 60000x more powerful.



> That's a cop - out excuse. If they don't move that fast, they don't move that fast.



Sigh. How would you animate movement that fast?



> Wrong, it always takes him a second to lock on to the spot he wants to move to. Not to mention he only actually used this ability in battle once, as part of a trick to try to beat Cell.



when hes fighting he keeps a lock on his opponents ki. furthermore he can warp without putting his fingers too his head. in a fight he can just appear next to his opponent.




> That's ass - backwards. You don't assume that if a guy can lift a 20 pound rock without trouble, he can lift a mountain. You take the strongest thing he has lifted and use that as an upper limit. Not to mention Goku was visibly struggling to lift a lot of things.



Kind of unfair as hes never had to lift huge things, but when force was required he did it. 



> Strawman. I never said it only weighed a few pounts, just that you were making unfounded assumptions based on the way something "looked".



Most rocks that big would weigh atleast a couple tons. Happy?



> Wrong, it was never stated how much SSJ1 increases, or for either one it didn't say what stats they were talking about.



Kiao-ken is very straight forward. Vegeta proves oozaru is x10. And SSJ is the difference of 300000 to 15000000.



> You're operating under the premise that he was capable of blocking the attack and coming up with excuses for why he didn't, instead of taking the logical route and deducing that he wasn't able to block the attack.



?? Did you see the Buu saga? Everyone takes pieces off of him, and he regenerates. Any other fighter of his level would just have been scratched up and bruised. Instead he takes the blunt, and regens to 100%.



> No, but he could have been trying to trick Goku, getting him to try to block the beam and making sure he didn't try to dodge it.



lol. 

If youre going to be difficult. how about power level 500000 destroying a planet with a finger, and not breaking a sweat?



> That was fat Buu. I'm talking about Kid Buu.



Me too.  




> Yet he never did anything anywhere near as impressive as what SSJ3 Goku did. As you stated, SSJ3 Goku shook the earth by powering up, SSJ4 didn't even shake the local area.



But he creamed someone a shitload stronger than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ4 transformation is way different from SSJ3.




> That doesn't explain how much stronger he is, not to mention it's wrong. DBZ ki increases energy projection much more than anything else. With a 20% increase in ki, you might get a 1% increase in physical strength, a 5% increase in speed, and a 40% increase in energy projection. (These numbers are just made up as examples to illustrate the idea).



And you know this how...




> Wait, you start with the unfounded assertion that he could blow up the earth by farting, I point out that if he could, why is the earth still there, and you assume that he must have never farted ever? That is more ass - backwards logic. You're taking an unfounded premise and using it as the only piece of evidence to justify a conclusion that is against common sense. How about some actual proof of.... well, anything you say?



I was joking. chill.



> Just because someone is weaker than you doesn't mean you can do everything they can.



In DBZ if you are more powerful, you are fasters and stronger. Thus aside from techniques, strength-wise, you can.




> WTF is that supposed to mean?



See USSJ Trunks. *R*oom *o*f *S*pirit *a*nd *T*ime.




> Then that means this form will be useless against Superman.



Wha? The whole point of my post was to outline gokus strengths. I never drew in superman as a comparison. 




> Right, and, with those attacks belonging to all of his friends and allies, it's totally inconcievable that he had, I don't know, seen them before and prepared for them?



My point exactly. Man, read what i was saying.




> For the last time, Freiza was on the surface of an exploding planet. That's hardly comparable to taking all the energy required to destroy a planet all focused at you at once.
> 
> And if every blast was planet - destroying, then how come the characters always make a huge point of freaking out and acting scared whenever someone says a blast is powerful enough to destroy a planet?



If the planet gets destroyed... they all die.
Plus as i stated before, DBZ fighters have pushed back world destroying blasts.




> Translation: I'm just going to ignore everything you just said and repeat my already - debunked claim over again!



Not at all. Im just saying to take some things into consideration. Characters forget they can fly all the time. Weak characters can take full on on hits from powerful characters and surivive with a few bruises. Catch my drift. Not every rule is followed. So characters going light-speed would not destroy the world. Savy?



> Ever think they might be holding back?




Cell back-handed Mr Satan into a cliff a fair distance away. After comically sliding down on his face, he returned with a few bruises, but very much okay.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> And?
> 
> Those ki blasts damage enemies by exploding and releasing the power stored inside them. They don't damage enemies with their kinetic energy, since it isn't that high.
> 
> If I had good enough reflexes, I could catch a grenade someone threw at me at throw it back before it exploded. Does that mean I'm strong enough to do the same amount of damage as a grenade if I punch something?



nonono. faulty analogy. someone could role a grenade at you.
comparing ki blasts to something like that doesnt work.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJ Krillin conernig Gotenks speed feat is faster than light, Mike or anybody else here has yet to proove it wrong.

From the manga, volume 40, page 139 Gotenks said: "* I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." *I presume this is where the 36 figure comes from, Final utima even confirmed this was true.

I know what you are going to say. "They were doing it for 30 min blah blah"

WRONG

1) Gotenks leaves light trails as he circles the earth

2) After he is finished he goes TO SLEEP (waiting for piccollo)

3) He says to picollo that he's slows and that he not only went around the earth multiple times but had a nap as well. Thats where the 29 minutes went.



> that doesnt proove thet they are speed of light or beyond



Er yes it does maybe you don't understand the concept of LIGHT trails. To leave a LIGHT trail you have to be going as fast or faster than light. Why are you even bothering to argue? I've already proven that ki blasts can go as fast as light (they ARE light) and we've seen sayans dodge and outfly ki blasts




> no one knows how long he took to go around the world multiple times and how long his nap was, it was never stated. but from wht we saw, and we did see th whole thing, gotenks had a nap which was only in the seconds, and because he is cocky he said to piccolo that he had a nap., cuz thats part of his charatcer, he does things like that.




If No one knows then WHY do YOU say that it took him 30 minutes to circle the earth? You can't say noone knows and then pretend that you do. You're chatting garbage. Gotenks flew through SPACE when he circled the earth. Do you think he held his breath for 30 mins? Why woud he even bother to fly around for half an hour? 

SOGEKING!!!!

Nuff said.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> SSJ Krillin conernig Gotenks speed feat is faster than light, Mike or anybody else here has yet to proove it wrong.
> 
> From the manga, volume 40, page 139 Gotenks said: "* I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." *I presume this is where the 36 figure comes from, Final utima even confirmed this was true.
> 
> ...



Thanks a lot. That makes perfect sense. Hes way out in the middle of space, proof of speed, and doing huge laps a shitload of times, proof of distance.

Very good proof he is ftl. 

Just out of curiosity, this is him as a SSJ or SSJ3?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

I leave my computer for a day, and hell nearly breaks loose.

I'll just comment and rebute some points. 4 in the morning. . .

_Cell states he can destroy the universe. Buu has destroyed universes. _

I'm sorry, but this is a VASTLY GROSS overstatement. Cell claimed he could destroy the solar system, while Buu destroyed galaxies. If they did destroy the universe, there'd be no DBZ continuum in which we would read the manga or watch the anime.

_I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."_

The problem with this is the time window in circling the globe and the time window for the nap.

No one can really prove or disprove that Gotenks was travelling at FTL or lightspeed. It's generally agreed upon that he reasonably exceeds the sound barrier however, as a base start.

_Er yes it does maybe you don't understand the concept of LIGHT trails. To leave a LIGHT trail you have to be going as fast or faster than light. Why are you even bothering to argue? _

I remember Reznor disproving this. I'll look in a few pages back, if not other threads.

In addition, if those were really light trails, they're way out of proportion compared to the Earth.

_I've already proven that ki blasts can go as fast as light (they ARE light)_

The fact that Vegeta was still in Earth's atmosphere disproves this greatly.

The fact that Kid Buu's and Vegeta's movements did not break the sound barrier in Z disproves this.

_Kind of unfair as hes never had to lift huge things, but when force was required he did it. _

What's the heaviest thing he lifted so far? Curious. And canon-wise.

_Cell back-handed Mr Satan into a cliff a fair distance away. After comically sliding down on his face, he returned with a few bruises, but very much okay._

(Peak arguably) humans in DB are higher than the average peak human.

Check out the Mr. Satan vs. Batman thread a few pages back in the BD.

_Hes way out in the middle of space_

Saiyans can't really breathe in space. Otherwise, they wouldn't have to worry much when a planet is destoryed (Namek or Earth).


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

For all the non-believers.


*Spoiler*: __ 








It wont let me post larger, but the last line clearly reads 
"the fights become bigger and bigger, until characters are strong enough to destroy the planet- by accident, if they're not careful." 
This is all before Cell. 





Shounen Jump
including an interview with the great A.T. himself, so its legit.

Oh and thanks for the neg rep Maggot Brain. Seeing as I havent even conversed with you, and looking back, see that you havent made a single decent post in this topic... well quite frankly you can suck my balls. If you have issues with any of my posts, grow a pair, and bring it in here.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

I see the line.

Curious. The year of the interview? And issue?

By what kind of accident? Misplaced physical blow, continued intense fighting, an impulsive planet destroyer? Confirmation of the cause would greatly help.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but this is a VASTLY GROSS overstatement. Cell claimed he could destroy the solar system, while Buu destroyed galaxies. If they did destroy the universe, there'd be no DBZ continuum in which we would read the manga or watch the anime.



I admited to making a mistake a ways back.



> _I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap."_
> 
> The problem with this is the time window in circling the globe and the time window for the nap.



It more the fact that hes doing all these laps around the world in space. He cant breath in space so hes not going at slow pace. sorry if im being unclear.



> The fact that Vegeta was still in Earth's atmosphere disproves this greatly.



DBZ is so inconsistant its hard to prove anything.



> What's the heaviest thing he lifted so far? Curious. And canon-wise.



Off the top of my head including canon. Goku did a huge rock in DB. Hes done cars, jets, building in Gt, rocks, mountains. Gohan carried a plane with no sweat. Dinosaurs. Gohan caused an earthquake by stomping his foot on the floor, and also caused the school to shake like an earthquake while tapping his foot nervously on the floor. Goku lifted a huge block of ka-chink (sp) the densest material in the universe with one hand. The Z Sword. Thats all i can remember now.



> (Peak arguably) humans in DB are higher than the average peak human.



Not the issue. I was pointing out that Shounen mangas have unrealistic features added for comedic effect, due to Mike posting that whatever we see is real- or something to that matter.



> _Hes way out in the middle of space_
> 
> Saiyans can't really breathe in space. Otherwise, they wouldn't have to worry much when a planet is destoryed (Namek or Earth).



See earlier point. He cant breath in space, so hes making his 12-36 laps around the world in space real quick.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I see the line.
> 
> Curious. The year of the interview? And issue?
> 
> By what kind of accident? Misplaced physical blow, continued intense fighting, an impulsive planet destroyer? Confirmation of the cause would greatly help.



July 2006, Volume 4, Issue 7

002


Edit: In regards to your question CBG- i have no clue


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_It more the fact that hes doing all these laps around the world in space._

I wouldn't say that. From what I remember of the manga scan -- and comparing it to the anime depiction -- it's reasonable to assume that Gotenks most likely raced within the upper atmosphere, to the point where there's still air.

Nothing really indicates in canon that Saiyans does not need to breathe in space.

_Not the issue. I was pointing out that Shounen mangas have unrealistic features added for comedic effect, due to Mike posting that whatever we see is real- or something to that matter._

We could chalk this up the world of DBZ.

Remember, fiction is fiction. Nothing says that a world of fiction (written story, TV show, movie, comic, etc.) says it has to adhere to our reality and its physics 100%. It's reasonable to allow _some_ leeway.

Look at DBZ. Not everyone is of human species. I remember a dog being a political figure (or important figure) in the DBZ world. And there are other animal human-like races I distinctly, distinctly remember in DB.

But also remember, this does not mean that logic and physics are absent from fiction. For example, if there was no physics, gravity would be missing; everyone would float into space and die.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

Vegerot?! Boo?!

Are they serious about those translations?

Huh. They even mention Saint Seiya in the bit there.

_Edit: In regards to your question CBG- i have no clue_

Damn.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _It more the fact that hes doing all these laps around the world in space._
> 
> I wouldn't say that. From what I remember of the manga scan -- and comparing it to the anime depiction -- it's reasonable to assume that Gotenks most likely raced within the upper atmosphere, to the point where there's still air.



You see it your way and I see it mine. Its impossible to prove.



> Nothing really indicates in canon that Saiyans does not need to breathe in space.



Im agreeing.


We could chalk this up the world of DBZ.



> Remember, fiction is fiction. Nothing says that a world of fiction (written story, TV show, movie, comic, etc.) says it has to adhere to our reality and its physics 100%. It's reasonable to allow _some_ leeway.



Full heartedly agree. Keeping in mind shounen manga bends reality even more than most fiction.



> Look at DBZ. Not everyone is of human species. I remember a dog being a political figure (or important figure) in the DBZ world. And there are other animal human-like races I distinctly, distinctly remember in DB.



They almost all disappeared in the short span between Db and DBZ



> But also remember, this does not mean that logic and physics are absent from fiction. For example, if there was no physics, gravity would be missing; everyone would float into space and die.



I agree to an extent. I dont believe that saiyans moving at light speed would destroy everything around them. I dont think A.T. would have written that.


And about Vegerot. Its not really an error just very uncommon- its vegeta and kakkarot (gokus saiyan name) mixed together. Savy?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_You see it your way and I see it mine. Its impossible to prove._

One's thing is for sure. Gotenks speed can't really be certainly proved or even disproved as being FTL or lightspeed. Without the time windows for proper calculation, we can only speculate. And this usually divides several DBZ fans amongst themselves.

_Keeping in mind shounen manga bends reality even more than most fiction._

Ah, hammerspace. What would happen if you never existed in anime or in Looney Tunes. . .

_They almost all disappeared in the short span between Db and DBZ_

Well, I wouldn't be surprised at their discontinued use. The change between DB and DBZ was so startling; I couldn't believe DBZ was actually the DB sequel; for the longest time, I thought it was an alternate universe.

Being a long-time admirer of Dragon Ball as a kid, DBZ was damn surprising to me.

_And about Vegerot. Its not really an error just very uncommon- its vegeta and kakkarot (gokus saiyan name) mixed together. Savy?_

I know what you mean.

But it doesn't make adjusting to the dub translations any easier.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 5, 2006)

Though the last page isn't part of the interview with AT. It's just SJ hype for DBZ. Making it far from canon.

Phenom, there ain't suchs things as light trails in modern physics. You can't prove anything with them.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_Though the last page isn't part of the interview with AT. It's just SJ hype for DBZ. Making it far from canon._

. . . Hmm. . .

I'll give the pages a thorough read-over once I sleep.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Around the time he went to train with roshi i believe. DB



I'll see if I can find anything, but I would appreciate it if you would be more specific.



> It increases powerlevel. Powerlevel=ki, strength, speed etc. Savy?



You're not getting it. DBZ power levels increase some stats more than others, this can clearly be observed.



> I'll check it out.



I posted one in the DBZ speed thread (metabattledome).



> I remember what you are talking about- as i said he has some of the universes strongest fighters watching him dodge ki blasts, but all they see is him standing still. Thats impressive.



But you can't derive any numbers from it, so all you have is a subjective interpretation, which is useless for cross - universe comparison.



> K than we'll deal with mins. 250 Db Goku (thats generous for the time) compared to 15000000 DBZ SSJ Goku (note only first level). Thats 60000x more powerful.



I thought I already explained to you, DBZ power levels are not a linear or a logical scale. For example, Roshi destroyed the moon with a PL of 139, and the farmer Raditz encountered had a PL of 5. If PLs were logical, that farmer would be more powerful than all of the world's nuclear arsenals combined.



> Sigh. How would you animate movement that fast?



Show everything else but the objects moving as being completely frozen still, and then reinforce it with the Saint Seiya method of actually STATING THAT THEY WERE MOVING THAT FAST.



> when hes fighting he keeps a lock on his opponents ki. furthermore he can warp without putting his fingers too his head. in a fight he can just appear next to his opponent.



Yet he has never ever done this. You're just making stuff up now.



> Kind of unfair as hes never had to lift huge things, but when force was required he did it.



The fact remains that he has never shown that kind of strength. Ever.

Naruto has never been in a situation where he has had to lift a mountain, does that mean you assume that he could?



> Most rocks that big would weigh atleast a couple tons. Happy?



Exactly which rock were you talking about, because I remember several.



> Kiao-ken is very straight forward.



Yet never used after the Freiza saga.



> Vegeta proves oozaru is x10.



Which is again never used until GT anyway, and SSJ4 is different from regular Oozaru.



> And SSJ is the difference of 300000 to 15000000.



It was for Goku, when he first transformed. How can you say for sure it was the same for Vegeta? Or Trunks? Or Gohan? Or Goten? You can't, especially since they have been portrayed as different (Picollo stated SSJ1 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ1 Goku, SSJ1 Goten and Trunks were beating 18 even though SSJ1 Vegeta and Mirai Trunks couldn't, etc.) There are too many inconsistencies to say something like that for sure.



> ?? Did you see the Buu saga? Everyone takes pieces off of him, and he regenerates. Any other fighter of his level would just have been scratched up and bruised. Instead he takes the blunt, and regens to 100%.



I was talking about Cell, not Buu.



> lol.
> 
> If youre going to be difficult. how about power level 500000 destroying a planet with a finger, and not breaking a sweat?



Mmm - hmm. And that means what, exactly? Since power levels are meaningless for cross - universe comparison.



> Me too.



No, the Buu Goku said he could have beaten was Fat Buu, Goku couldn't single - handedly defeat Kid Buu (this was proved by their fight).



> But he creamed someone a shitload stronger than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ4 transformation is way different from SSJ3.



Except Baby/Bebi wasn't stronger than SSJ3 Goku, not going by feats.



> And you know this how...



Like I said, those percentages are just examples, but the idea is based on the fact that their physical strength and speed are always nowhere near their ki projection abilities.



> I was joking. chill.



Then I accept your concession.



> In DBZ if you are more powerful, you are fasters and stronger. Thus aside from techniques, strength-wise, you can.



You mean like that specific technique Freiza always used whenever he tried to destroy a planet?



> See USSJ Trunks. *R*oom *o*f *S*pirit *a*nd *T*ime.



Thanks for the clarification, but what is your point? Trunks stated he was stronger, and showed huge muscles, but he didn't have any actual strength feats. Not to mention that his ki projection was still much greater than his strength, if we go by what is demonstrated.



> Wha? The whole point of my post was to outline gokus strengths. I never drew in superman as a comparison.



Well it is the point of this thread....



> My point exactly. Man, read what i was saying.



You said that he never gets hit by the same attack twice, and you gave the example of him countering all of Cell's attacks, but I provided a more logical explanation for that, then you say that's what you meant all along?

.....



> If the planet gets destroyed... they all die.



And if every blast is planet - destroying, then how come in every DBZ fight, a bunch of blasts miss and hit the landscape instead, but the world never blows up because of this?



> Plus as i stated before, DBZ fighters have pushed back world destroying blasts.



Which is not a great feat of physical strength because said blasts are moving far too slowly to deliver world - destroying power with kinetic energy, they deliver it with some other method.



> Not at all. Im just saying to take some things into consideration. Characters forget they can fly all the time. Weak characters can take full on on hits from powerful characters and surivive with a few bruises. Catch my drift. Not every rule is followed. So characters going light-speed would not destroy the world. Savy?



When did I say anything about lightspeed characters destroying the world?

I merely said that DBZ characters have not shown any speed at lightspeed or greater.



> Cell back-handed Mr Satan into a cliff a fair distance away. After comically sliding down on his face, he returned with a few bruises, but very much okay.



And, IIRC, it was explicitly stated that Cell didn't want to waste the energy to kill him.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Mike you need to stop with the name calling because it shows that you lost your composure.
> 
> please lets not start a flame war lets be cool. okay babycakes



1. I didn't insult you in that post.

2. No, it shows that I am tired with you constantly repeating things that I have already refuted.

3. Shut up.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> nonono. faulty analogy. someone could role a grenade at you.
> comparing ki blasts to something like that doesnt work.



You said my analogy was wrong but didn't explain why it was wrong.

There is nothing wrong with it.

A ki blast in DBZ is like a bomb.

It is fired at a target, and when it hits, it explodes, releasing energy.

If someone can block that blast and move it away, that doesn't mean they somehow overcame all the energy inside of it, it just means they moved it before the energy was released.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> SSJ Krillin conernig Gotenks speed feat is faster than light, Mike or anybody else here has yet to proove it wrong.



Burden of proof is on you.



> From the manga, volume 40, page 139 Gotenks said: "* I circled the globe a few dozen times... and even took a nap." *I presume this is where the 36 figure comes from, Final utima even confirmed this was true.



And?



> I know what you are going to say. "They were doing it for 30 min blah blah"
> 
> WRONG
> 
> 1) Gotenks leaves light trails as he circles the earth



Which means nothing.



> 2) After he is finished he goes TO SLEEP (waiting for piccollo)



You don't know for how long.



> 3) He says to picollo that he's slows and that he not only went around the earth multiple times but had a nap as well. Thats where the 29 minutes went.



You automatically assume that he slept for 29 minutes with no evidence. Where does it say how long his nap was?



> Er yes it does maybe you don't understand the concept of LIGHT trails. To leave a LIGHT trail you have to be going as fast or faster than light. Why are you even bothering to argue? I've already proven that ki blasts can go as fast as light (they ARE light) and we've seen sayans dodge and outfly ki blasts



This moronic argument again?

I refuted this over a dozen times already!

A 'light trail' could be caused by one of two things:

1. An optical illusion caused by an object moving so fast your brain has trouble processing it.

2. An object leaving some kind of luminous matter behind it as it moves.

Neither of these require c movement.




> If No one knows then WHY do YOU say that it took him 30 minutes to circle the earth? You can't say noone knows and then pretend that you do. You're chatting garbage. Gotenks flew through SPACE when he circled the earth. Do you think he held his breath for 30 mins? Why woud he even bother to fly around for half an hour?
> 
> SOGEKING!!!!
> 
> Nuff said.



Even if that gif was literally true (and it isn't, it's contradicted by the manga), it still would be much slower than lightspeed.

You are assuming it took him 29 minutes for a nap when there is no evidence of this.

And the clincher is, right afterwards, it took him a whole minute to get to Buu's house, which, at the maximum, would only be on the other side of the planet!


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> It more the fact that hes doing all these laps around the world in space. He cant breath in space so hes not going at slow pace. sorry if im being unclear.



Why couldn't he have just been in the upper atmosphere? Besides, Goku did hold his breath for a long time in his fight with Freiza, and there were several extensive underwater battles in DB and DBZ.



> DBZ is so inconsistant its hard to prove anything.



Then why are you trying?



> Off the top of my head including canon. Goku did a huge rock in DB.



True.



> Hes done cars, jets, building in Gt, rocks,



True.



> mountains.



When did he ever lift a mountain? I mean a real mountain, not a big rock that is only fifty to a couple hundred feet tall.



> Gohan carried a plane with no sweat.



True.



> Dinosaurs.



True.



> Gohan caused an earthquake by stomping his foot on the floor, and also caused the school to shake like an earthquake while tapping his foot nervously on the floor.



He was obviously using some kind of ki technique, since there's no way he could have caused such a powerful disturbance in the ground while not even damaging the floor of the building.



> Goku lifted a huge block of ka-chink (sp) the densest material in the universe with one hand.



It was the strongest, not the densest. A material can be strong without being too heavy or dense.



> The Z Sword. Thats all i can remember now.



Chalk it up to faulty memory.



> Not the issue. I was pointing out that Shounen mangas have unrealistic features added for comedic effect, due to Mike posting that whatever we see is real- or something to that matter.



You can't just use that as an excuse to ignore canon events. And the part about Mr. Satan disproves your arguments about his injuries.



> See earlier point. He cant breath in space, so hes making his 12-36 laps around the world in space real quick.



Or the upper atmosphere....


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> July 2006, Volume 4, Issue 7
> 
> 002
> 
> ...



And exactly what does that page prove?

I don't see it saying anything that could be useful in a debate, except for the line about characters being powerful enough to destroy planets, and we already know DBZ characters can destroy planets.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Nothing really indicates in canon that Saiyans does not need to breathe in space.



Actually, this is a major plot point in the Freiza saga.



> We could chalk this up the world of DBZ.
> 
> Remember, fiction is fiction. Nothing says that a world of fiction (written story, TV show, movie, comic, etc.) says it has to adhere to our reality and its physics 100%. It's reasonable to allow _some_ leeway.





> True.
> 
> Look at DBZ. Not everyone is of human species. I remember a dog being a political figure (or important figure) in the DBZ world. And there are other animal human-like races I distinctly, distinctly remember in DB.



That doesn't exactly defy physics. After all, AFAIK there are no physical laws that say it is impossible for a humanoid, sentient dog - creature to exist, it's just that none of them do exist in the real world. Perhaps if we mastered genetic engineering though, you never know....



> But also remember, this does not mean that logic and physics are absent from fiction. For example, if there was no physics, gravity would be missing; everyone would float into space and die.



Without gravity, the earth and solar system wouldn't have formed in the first place.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> You see it your way and I see it mine. Its impossible to prove.



We do have the fact that it took him a whole minute to reach Buu's house immediately afterwards... (BTW he was not SSJ1 or SSJ3 at the time, he was SSJ2).


----------



## Shiron (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> July 2006, Volume 4, Issue 7
> 
> Link here
> 
> ...


 Correction. As a subscriber to US SJ myself, and by looking at the large version of that pic (Link here, it's obvious that that is just a summary of the series from the US SJ staff and is in no way, shape, or form, and interview from Toriyama. The actual interview is just the first five pics on that thread, and it doesn't include the one I pointed out (this is clearly evident anyways, since the 5th page, the last interview page, says "END" at the end of the interview). In the actual interview, Toriyama says nothing about the characters' strength.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

mkay



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I'll see if I can find anything, but I would appreciate it if you would be more specific.



I'll look for it.



> You're not getting it. DBZ power levels increase some stats more than others, this can clearly be observed.



Examples please.



> I posted one in the DBZ speed thread (metabattledome).



Im giving it a look-see.




> I thought I already explained to you, DBZ power levels are not a linear or a logical scale. For example, Roshi destroyed the moon with a PL of 139, and the farmer Raditz encountered had a PL of 5. If PLs were logical, that farmer would be more powerful than all of the world's nuclear arsenals combined.




lol good point. than how about vegeta, freiza, and piccolo?



> Show everything else but the objects moving as being completely frozen still, and then reinforce it with the Saint Seiya method of actually STATING THAT THEY WERE MOVING THAT FAST.



AT wrote his manga his way. I would like as much as you for him to straightout say they are moving lightspeed, or they are not.



> Yet he has never ever done this. You're just making stuff up now.



Did he put his finger to his head against cell? He had both his hands full his his kamehameha if im not mistaken. Making stuff up?



> The fact remains that he has never shown that kind of strength. Ever.
> Naruto has never been in a situation where he has had to lift a mountain, does that mean you assume that he could?



 Its obviously impossible for naruto to be that strong. If Goku had strength as great as superman it wouldnt be that hard to believe.





> Exactly which rock were you talking about, because I remember several.



Training with roshi.



> Yet never used after the Freiza saga.



Because SSJ made him many times more powerful than 20x kaio-ken.



> Which is again never used until GT anyway, and SSJ4 is different from regular Oozaru.



Golden Oozaru beat Bebi who is >> than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ4 Goku>> Golden Oozaru.




> It was for Goku, when he first transformed. How can you say for sure it was the same for Vegeta? Or Trunks? Or Gohan? Or Goten? You can't, especially since they have been portrayed as different (Picollo stated SSJ1 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ1 Goku, SSJ1 Goten and Trunks were beating 18 even though SSJ1 Vegeta and Mirai Trunks couldn't, etc.) There are too many inconsistencies to say something like that for sure.



They were going 2 vs 1. And she was beating them. They went SSj and it was even. 18 never fought both Vegeta and Trunks. She demolished Vegeta, and Trunks got dealt with by her brother before he could do shit.




> I was talking about Cell, not Buu.



Well than theres an example of someone not being afraid of an earth destroying blast. He wanted to take it head on. Vegeta just put a shit load more juice into it. He still survived, and you can view the after effects of the blast.




> Mmm - hmm. And that means what, exactly? Since power levels are meaningless for cross - universe comparison.



We use powerlevels to judge others powers. If someone with a pl of 500000 could destroy a planet no problem, logic dictates someone with a pl of 500000000 would have no trouble what so ever doing an even greater feat.



> No, the Buu Goku said he could have beaten was Fat Buu, Goku couldn't single - handedly defeat Kid Buu (this was proved by their fight).



No. Goku could have beat Kid Buu but wanted Vegeta to have a crack at him. 



> Except Baby/Bebi wasn't stronger than SSJ3 Goku, not going by feats.



But he was more powerful.



> Like I said, those percentages are just examples, but the idea is based on the fact that their physical strength and speed are always nowhere near their ki projection abilities.



Again some examples would be nice.





> You mean like that specific technique Freiza always used whenever he tried to destroy a planet?




Yea. If youre stronger you dont have that exact technique, but you have one more powerful.




> Thanks for the clarification, but what is your point? Trunks stated he was stronger, and showed huge muscles, but he didn't have any actual strength feats. Not to mention that his ki projection was still much greater than his strength, if we go by what is demonstrated.



He was able to put his ki into different areas. Thats the main point.




> Well it is the point of this thread....



In that post I was mearly talking about what we can judge about Goku.




> You said that he never gets hit by the same attack twice, and you gave the example of him countering all of Cell's attacks, but I provided a more logical explanation for that, then you say that's what you meant all along?
> 
> .....



I said the same technique doesnt work on him twice. None of cells techniques worked on him, beause he'd seen them all before.  So yes, you are agreeing with me.



> And if every blast is planet - destroying, then how come in every DBZ fight, a bunch of blasts miss and hit the landscape instead, but the world never blows up because of this?



The fights would be less dramatic if someone looks like a badass by backhanding a blast into a nearby mountain, only to be killed when the planet explodes.




> Which is not a great feat of physical strength because said blasts are moving far too slowly to deliver world - destroying power with kinetic energy, they deliver it with some other method.



So why dont they stop every ki blast? Trunks stops one from destroying the earth with one hand. SurelyIf he tried he could stop any attack.




> When did I say anything about lightspeed characters destroying the world?
> 
> I merely said that DBZ characters have not shown any speed at lightspeed or greater.



It was an example. I have looked back in the speed and g vs sm debates, and notced ppl bringing up arguements like 'if goku went ftl everything on earth would be destroyed, by the resulting boom' or something to that affect. 



> And, IIRC, it was explicitly stated that Cell didn't want to waste the energy to kill him.



He flew like a mile away, and face planted into the rocks. Are you saying any human could do that and walk away with a bruise on there face. Its obvious that some feats are for comic relief, or for plot advancement, or even for dramatics, so you should not take every little event seriously.




> Why couldn't he have just been in the upper atmosphere? Besides, Goku did hold his breath for a long time in his fight with Freiza, and there were several extensive underwater battles in DB and DBZ.



See my comment to CBG.



> Then why are you trying?



Because its a debate.  




> He was obviously using some kind of ki technique, since there's no way he could have caused such a powerful disturbance in the ground while not even damaging the floor of the building.



ki technique? He didnt even realize he was doing it.




> Chalk it up to faulty memory.



Chalk what up. He was asking for some strength feats. I gave him a list.



> You can't just use that as an excuse to ignore canon events. And the part about Mr. Satan disproves your arguments about his injuries.



Man some things werent meant to be taken seriously. Db started off as a comedy with fighting. Sorry i lost you with the Satan thing- could you elaborate?



> Or the upper atmosphere....



See previous post.



> You said my analogy was wrong but didn't explain why it was wrong.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with it.
> 
> ...



Than how come these ki blasts/bombs dont explode when they hit the person blocking them?



> We do have the fact that it took him a whole minute to reach Buu's house immediately afterwards... (BTW he was not SSJ1 or SSJ3 at the time, he was SSJ2).



This was for the plot.


----------



## NaraShikamaru (Jul 5, 2006)

Goku. . . I say that because i prefer him that Superman XD


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Examples please.



The fact that their ki blasts can destroy moons and planets but they have never lifted or moved anything anywhere near that heavy?



> lol good point. than how about vegeta, freiza, and piccolo?



What about them?



> AT wrote his manga his way. I would like as much as you for him to straightout say they are moving lightspeed, or they are not.



However, he didn't say it, and there is no evidence in the manga itself to suggest they do.



> Did he put his finger to his head against cell? He had both his hands full his his kamehameha if im not mistaken. Making stuff up?



He had to concentrate for a few seconds to teleport.



> Its obviously impossible for naruto to be that strong. If Goku had strength as great as superman it wouldnt be that hard to believe.



So Goku is as strong as Superman because..... you want him to be?

Oh, wow, that is so objective and logical, you've sure convinced me! (obvious sarcasm).



> Training with roshi.



Again, there were several.



> Because SSJ made him many times more powerful than 20x kaio-ken.



Or the two powerups were simply incompatible and couldn't be used at once.



> Golden Oozaru beat Bebi who is >> than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ4 Goku>> Golden Oozaru.



You mean SSJ3 Kid Goku, who is much weaker than SSJ3 adult Goku.



> They were going 2 vs 1. And she was beating them. They went SSj and it was even. 18 never fought both Vegeta and Trunks. She demolished Vegeta, and Trunks got dealt with by her brother before he could do shit.



She was beating them when they were both in base form. When they went SSJ1 they were winning before the announcer disqualified them.



> Well than theres an example of someone not being afraid of an earth destroying blast. He wanted to take it head on. Vegeta just put a shit load more juice into it. He still survived, and you can view the after effects of the blast.



He didn't take it completely head on, he took it partially off to the side and it vaporized a huge part of his body. If he didn't have Namek genes, he would have died from that.



> We use powerlevels to judge others powers. If someone with a pl of 500000 could destroy a planet no problem, logic dictates someone with a pl of 500000000 would have no trouble what so ever doing an even greater feat.



In the same universe. But what happens when you compare against universes that don't use power levels? There's no way to tell except for feats and abilities. All power levels are good for is getting a rough idea of which DBZ characters are more powerful than which other DBZ characters.



> No. Goku could have beat Kid Buu but wanted Vegeta to have a crack at him.



That's BS and you know it. Goku went all out against Kid Buu, he pulled out all the stops, he used SSJ3 right off the bat, and was still losing, and needed a genki dama and a power recharge from the dragonballs to beat him. He also needed Vegeta to run interference while he gathered energy.



> But he was more powerful.



Not going by feats. He didn't do anything as impressive as SSJ3 Goku did.



> Again some examples would be nice.



See above.



> Yea. If youre stronger you dont have that exact technique, but you have one more powerful.



Do you have proof Goku has a technique like this?



> He was able to put his ki into different areas. Thats the main point.



But it didn't increase his other stats as much as it did energy projection.



> In that post I was mearly talking about what we can judge about Goku.



Fair enough.



> I said the same technique doesnt work on him twice. None of cells techniques worked on him, beause he'd seen them all before.  So yes, you are agreeing with me.



He had not only seen them before, but had extensive experience with them. That's hardly the same thing.



> The fights would be less dramatic if someone looks like a badass by backhanding a blast into a nearby mountain, only to be killed when the planet explodes.



That's a really lame excuse. You're basically saying that "A is true, even though B proves A isn't true, but A is still true, because B makes the plot better." THAT DOESN'T WORK. If something is proven to be not true, then it's not true, despite all the excuses you make.



> So why dont they stop every ki blast? Trunks stops one from destroying the earth with one hand. SurelyIf he tried he could stop any attack.



Because some of them move too fast for a certain fighter to stop, or move on an unexpected trajectory, or will blow up too soon, or approach from multiple angles at once, etc. Really, it's easier to just dodge them.



> It was an example. I have looked back in the speed and g vs sm debates, and notced ppl bringing up arguements like 'if goku went ftl everything on earth would be destroyed, by the resulting boom' or something to that affect.



Well that's not true, because since nothing in real life moves FTL, it would be impossible to predict the effects of something doing so unless a precedent had been established.



> He flew like a mile away, and face planted into the rocks. Are you saying any human could do that and walk away with a bruise on there face. Its obvious that some feats are for comic relief, or for plot advancement, or even for dramatics, so you should not take every little event seriously.



1. It was only about 100 feet.

2. CBG gave the explanation about DBZ humans being tougher than average.

3. When in a debate with the intent of analyzing a fictional universe, you have to take everything seriously.



> See my comment to CBG.



Already addressed.



> Because its a debate.



Yet if it's impossible to prove like you said, why are you wasting your time?



> ki technique? He didnt even realize he was doing it.



Seemed to me he did because he wanted to get out of school.

Besides, it was never said that ki release can't be subconscious.



> Chalk what up. He was asking for some strength feats. I gave him a list.



Many of which were inaccurate.



> Man some things werent meant to be taken seriously. Db started off as a comedy with fighting. Sorry i lost you with the Satan thing- could you elaborate?



Mr. Satan is his Japanese name (English name is Hercule). And if you think it should not be taken seriously, why are you in a debate that involves serious application of logic and reasoning?



> See previous post.



See above.



> Than how come these ki blasts/bombs dont explode when they hit the person blocking them?



Probably because that person is using their own ki to stabilize them for a bit.

Or because there is a random element involved in the the timing of their explosions.

Take your pick.



> This was for the plot.



See above. Instead of just ignoring canon events in a vague attempt to sew together a patchwork pattern that is to your liking, you could choose the logical route and assume that Gotenks must have made those laps around the world over the course of quite a few minutes.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

NaraShikamaru said:
			
		

> Goku. . . I say that because i prefer him that Superman XD



And I prefer Conan O'Brian over Bruce Lee.

Doesn't mean he'd win in a fight.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

These keep getting longer. But im quite enjoying it.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The fact that their ki blasts can destroy moons and planets but they have never lifted or moved anything anywhere near that heavy?


 
When have they had to? I cant prove thye can, you cant prove they cant.



> What about them?


 
They can all destroy planets effortlessly, with weak pl. SSJ3 Goku putting all his ki into a single kamehameha should do a lil better than cells (could destroy the universe). Hell in DBGT Goku whipped both Cell and Frieza in his base form, and he was playing around.




> However, he didn't say it, and there is no evidence in the manga itself to suggest they do.


 
All the feats have no numbers. Thats where arguement occurs. The only move proven to be ftl (much faster) is 'IT'. 




> He had to concentrate for a few seconds to teleport.


 
Wah? Could you post the scan? As i remember, 1 second hes in the air with Cell laughing. Next, hes next to him and cell is shitting himself. 



> So Goku is as strong as Superman because..... you want him to be?
> 
> Oh, wow, that is so objective and logical, you've sure convinced me! (obvious sarcasm).


 
I suppose its hard to believe that someone with the power to destroy the universe with a single attack, could also have superman like strength.  




> Again, there were several.


 
Than take your pick.



> Or the two powerups were simply incompatible and couldn't be used at once.


 
Wrong. Look up kaio-ken and its effects and you'll understand why he stops once he gets uber powerful. Next look at the power added and drawbacks of SSJ.



> You mean SSJ3 Kid Goku, who is much weaker than SSJ3 adult Goku.


 
SSJ3 Kid Goku >>>> Base GT Goku = Uub = Kid Buu = SSJ3 DGZ Goku




> She was beating them when they were both in base form. When they went SSJ1 they were winning before the announcer disqualified them.


 
Winning? Please post scans. Either way, your previous point was proven wrong  



> He didn't take it completely head on, he took it partially off to the side and it vaporized a huge part of his body. If he didn't have Namek genes, he would have died from that.


 
Notice him stand directly infront, and trunks comment on how he was going to take it head on. Plus the blast was much more powerful than your run-of-the-mill planet destroying blasts. Note after effects.



> In the same universe. But what happens when you compare against universes that don't use power levels? There's no way to tell except for feats and abilities. All power levels are good for is getting a rough idea of which DBZ characters are more powerful than which other DBZ characters.


 
And telling how powerful they are, and what they are capable of. Goku>>>Cell. Cell could destroy the universe. Therefore logic dictates that Goku could destroy much more.




> That's BS and you know it. Goku went all out against Kid Buu, he pulled out all the stops, he used SSJ3 right off the bat, and was still losing, and needed a genki dama and a power recharge from the dragonballs to beat him. He also needed Vegeta to run interference while he gathered energy.


 
He says he wanted to give vegeta a shot. and that he had the power. remember how he had vegeta fight buu so he could try and regain his power as a SSJ3 and beat him? when he couldnt, they used the genki dama. go reread or rewatch. which ever will get it into your head.




> Not going by feats. He didn't do anything as impressive as SSJ3 Goku did.


 
but going by power and logic...
If hes more powerful, than he should have no trouble duplicating feats.




> Do you have proof Goku has a technique like this?


 
umm lemme see... how about his trademark attack? Kamehameha?




> But it didn't increase his other stats as much as it did energy projection.


 
Go back and read his fight with cell, and the explaination of USSJ.




> He had not only seen them before, but had extensive experience with them. That's hardly the same thing.


 
Go back and read my post about this. 



> That's a really lame excuse. You're basically saying that "A is true, even though B proves A isn't true, but A is still true, because B makes the plot better." THAT DOESN'T WORK. If something is proven to be not true, then it's not true, despite all the excuses you make.


 
No point trying to argue with you about artistic licence.




> Because some of them move too fast for a certain fighter to stop, or move on an unexpected trajectory, or will blow up too soon, or approach from multiple angles at once, etc. Really, it's easier to just dodge them.


 
Refer to Bradock vs Frieza.



> Well that's not true, because since nothing in real life moves FTL, it would be impossible to predict the effects of something doing so unless a precedent had been established.


 
It was an example i used, because some people had brought it up.




> 1. It was only about 100 feet.


 
lol. That would barely take him out of the ring, much less to the top of a 100m cliff a ways away.



> 2. CBG gave the explanation about DBZ humans being tougher than average.


 
It was for comedy. I dont see how you dont understand that. Not everything is meant to be taken seriously.



> 3. When in a debate with the intent of analyzing a fictional universe, you have to take everything seriously.


 
Fine. Then Cell could destroy the universe, and the heavens shook when Goku and Buu fought.




> Yet if it's impossible to prove like you said, why are you wasting your time?


 
Its a debate. I can use other examples to prove that it is most likely.



> Seemed to me he did because he wanted to get out of school.
> 
> Besides, it was never said that ki release can't be subconscious.


 
When have they said that it is subconscious? 

So Gohan uses Ki subconsciously because..... you want him to?

Oh, wow, that is so objective and logical, you've sure convinced me! (obvious sarcasm).



> Many of which were inaccurate.


 
Sorry which ones?




> Mr. Satan is his Japanese name (English name is Hercule).


 
What? What? What does this have to do with anything.



> And if you think it should not be taken seriously, why are you in a debate that involves serious application of logic and reasoning?


 
Im using logic to try and show you that some things in a Comedy Shounen Manga are there for comic relief.




> Probably because that person is using their own ki to stabilize them for a bit.
> 
> Or because there is a random element involved in the the timing of their explosions.
> 
> Take your pick.


 
Or maybe because the person overpowers the ki in the blast with their own. 



> See above. Instead of just ignoring canon events in a vague attempt to sew together a patchwork pattern that is to your liking, you could choose the logical route and assume that Gotenks must have made those laps around the world over the course of quite a few minutes.


 
Sorry which canon events? I apologize if im not taking events placed in the manga for comical purposes seriously.

Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT. In the span of less than 30 seconds Bulma and co have an entire conversation. An example of artisitc licence used to further the plot. Really i could argue that due to this scene, the Z fighters can converse with each other at the speed of light, but thats obviously not the case. Catch my drift.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 5, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 3. When in a debate with the intent of analyzing a fictional universe, you have to take everything seriously.



I'll have to disagree with this. Eiko Magami, someone who's exceptionally strong, goes through MULTITUDE of comic relief scenario, but neither should disproves her actual power. Some things are not meant to be taken serious, especially if they go against an already established feat (If Superman can take a nuke, but is hurt by Lois' slap... we'd have to take that as comical)


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 5, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> These keep getting longer. But im quite enjoying it. When have they had to? I cant prove thye can, you cant prove they cant.



Except they struggle with lesser things and you can't assume someone can do something they have never been shown to do if there is no evidence for it. Burden of proof is on you to prove they can as it's impossible to prove a negative.



> They can all destroy planets effortlessly, with weak pl. SSJ3 Goku putting all his ki into a single kamehameha should do a lil better than cells (could destroy the universe). Hell in DBGT Goku whipped both Cell and Frieza in his base form, and he was playing around.



For the last time, it was the solar system! Do you have any idea how huge a difference there is between a solar system and a universe? And it wasn't effortlessly, they had to charge up or prepare a special technique.



> All the feats have no numbers. Thats where arguement occurs. The only move proven to be ftl (much faster) is 'IT'.


 
Then you admit they don't move at, near, or faster than the speed of light. Good.



> Wah? Could you post the scan? As i remember, 1 second hes in the air with Cell laughing. Next, hes next to him and cell is shitting himself.



He prepared it in advance, he obviously had to concentrate. Not to mention you brought it up first, you post the scan.



> I suppose its hard to believe that someone with the power to destroy the universe with a single attack, could also have superman like strength.


 
Yeah, actually, that is hard to believe, because NO ONE IN DBZ CAN COME ANYWHERE CLOSE TO DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE!



> Than take your pick.


 
You need to tell me which one you were talking about.



> Wrong. Look up kaio-ken and its effects and you'll understand why he stops once he gets uber powerful. Next look at the power added and drawbacks of SSJ.



But wouldn't using them in conjunction be even more effective? Unless he couldn't for some reason.



> SSJ3 Kid Goku >>>> Base GT Goku = Uub = Kid Buu = SSJ3 DGZ Goku


 
That's retarded. Honestly, think about what you just wrote. It makes no logical sense. All the characters were depowered in GT and they all jobbed to Goku anyway.



> Winning? Please post scans. Either way, your previous point was proven wrong


 
What point? That SSJ1 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ1 Goku? Because you didn't even address that. And they were winning because they were attacking here and she was all like "OMGWTF" and then the Announcer disqualified them.



> Notice him stand directly infront, and trunks comment on how he was going to take it head on. Plus the blast was much more powerful than your run-of-the-mill planet destroying blasts. Note after effects.


 
What after effects? Destroying part of Cell's body? Flying into space? How does that prove anything?



> And telling how powerful they are, and what they are capable of. Goku>>>Cell. Cell could destroy the universe. Therefore logic dictates that Goku could destroy much more.



NO HE COULDN'T! Where are you pulling this 'destroy the universe' crap from?



> He says he wanted to give vegeta a shot. and that he had the power. remember how he had vegeta fight buu so he could try and regain his power as a SSJ3 and beat him? when he couldnt, they used the genki dama. go reread or rewatch. which ever will get it into your head.


 
It's you who needs to reread and rewatch. Even as SSJ3, he was getting beaten, and had to use Genki Dama in order to win, and it still wasn't enough, as he had to have his power restored by the dragonballs.



> but going by power and logic...
> If hes more powerful, than he should have no trouble duplicating feats.



Yet he didn't.



> umm lemme see... how about his trademark attack? Kamehameha?



Which has destroyed a planet.... when?



> Go back and read his fight with cell, and the explaination of USSJ.



Don't just ask me to reread stuff, present your argument so I know what you're talking about. He didn't have any strength feats, and certainly didn't demonstrate anything that requires as much energy as destroying a planet with only physical strength.



> Go back and read my post about this.



I did, and that is my reply. Stop copping out.



> No point trying to argue with you about artistic licence.



In a vs. debate, there is no such thing, because all that is subjective. You have to rely on what objectively happened or else it's all subjective BS.



> Refer to Bradock vs Frieza.



Which is non - canon.....



> lol. That would barely take him out of the ring, much less to the top of a 100m cliff a ways away.



Did you even watch the scene in question?



You call that half a mile?

You have a very poor sense of distance.



> It was for comedy. I dont see how you dont understand that. Not everything is meant to be taken seriously.



It is in a vs. debate if you want an objective result.



> Fine. Then Cell could destroy the universe, and the heavens shook when Goku and Buu fought.



Hint: "Taking stuff seriously" doesn't mean "Making crap up that never happened".



> Its a debate. I can use other examples to prove that it is most likely.



Yet it hasn't.



> When have they said that it is subconscious?
> 
> So Gohan uses Ki subconsciously because..... you want him to?
> 
> Oh, wow, that is so objective and logical, you've sure convinced me! (obvious sarcasm).


 
No, because it is the only logical explanation. It couldn't be pure physical strength, or else he would destroy the floor and the building. Ki is the only possible option. Either that or, by a remarkable coincidence, there just happened to be an actual earthquake there.



> Sorry which ones?



Refer to post 984.



> What? What? What does this have to do with anything.



Because you asked? 



> Im using logic to try and show you that some things in a Comedy Shounen Manga are there for comic relief.



That's not logic, that's subjective bullshit. Logic would be not trying to make up stupid excuses that contradict what actually happens.



> Or maybe because the person overpowers the ki in the blast with their own.



Then how come their own ki is never released when this happens? Wouldn't we expect to see another ki blast hitting the other one, or a big flash of light, or something? 



> Sorry which canon events? I apologize if im not taking events placed in the manga for comical purposes seriously.



I'll go over this slowly.

Goten and Trunks fuse. They have 30 minutes before the fusion wears off.

Gotenks flies around the world several times (exact number is unknown, the manga shows 5, the anime shows 9, the manga says 'a couple dozen').

He takes a nap for an unknown amount of time.

Picollo arrives. Gotenks leaves for Buu's house. 1 minute is remaining in the fusion.

Gotenks arrives at Buu's house, and defuses immediately after, meaning that he took slightly under a minute to get there. Much slower than lightspeed.



> Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT. In the span of less than 30 seconds Bulma and co have an entire conversation. An example of artisitc licence used to further the plot. Really i could argue that due to this scene, the Z fighters can converse with each other at the speed of light, but thats obviously not the case. Catch my drift.



WTF are you talking about?

Bulma was outside of the time chamber.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_If Goku had strength as great as superman it wouldnt be that hard to believe._

Not reasonable. Since base Goku could lift tens (hundreds in Phenomenol's case) during the Buu saga, it's reasonable to believe that he's not capable of hitting Superman's billion strength range, despite the SSJ power-ups. At best, I'd generously give him thousands of tons for strength capability -- million is stretching it -- but it still pales when it's compared to Superman's.

_They can all destroy planets effortlessly, with weak pl. SSJ3 Goku putting all his ki into a single kamehameha should do a lil better than cells (could destroy the universe)._

Correction, *SOLAR SYSTEM.*

_Hell in DBGT Goku whipped both Cell and Frieza in his base form, and he was playing around._

DBGT is pretty inconsistant with DBZ. In DBZ, it's stated that if you killed a dead person again, they cease to exist (Buu Saga). Cell and Frieza were killed again in GT, yet they say that they're immortal.

_As i remember, 1 second hes in the air with Cell laughing. Next, hes next to him and cell is shitting himself. _

What, the Warp Kamehame Ha? Didn't it take awhile to build up ki?

_I suppose its hard to believe that someone with the power to destroy the universe with a single attack, could also have superman like strength._

His physical strength has been hinted at by certain writers that he can destroy planets with unrestrained physical blows. Joe Casey is one of them.

And correction, it's not a universe.

_Cell could destroy the universe. Therefore logic dictates that Goku could destroy much more._

You seriously got to stop saying universe.

In addition, Cell's statement of destroying the solar system has been argued to have been a hyperbole, among fans in and out of DBZ.

_It was for comedy. I dont see how you dont understand that. Not everything is meant to be taken seriously._

In debates like these, it has to be explained.

_Fine. Then Cell could destroy the universe, and the heavens shook when Goku and Buu fought._

You really, really need to stop saying universe in conjunction with Cell.

_Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT. In the span of less than 30 seconds Bulma and co have an entire conversation. An example of artisitc licence used to further the plot. _

. . . Wha?

Time in the Room of Space and Time runs differently than the world outside it.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Sorry bout the whole uni vs solar system. Sub solar s. for uni in my last post.




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Except they struggle with lesser things and you can't assume someone can do something they have never been shown to do if there is no evidence for it. Burden of proof is on you to prove they can as it's impossible to prove a negative.


 




> For the last time, it was the solar system! Do you have any idea how huge a difference there is between a solar system and a universe? And it wasn't effortlessly, they had to charge up or prepare a special technique.



Effortlessly was directed at planet destroying. and yes they could. Buu and freiza are examples of characters who could destroy planets without breaking a sweat.




> Then you admit they don't move at, near, or faster than the speed of light. Good.


No im saying the only undisputed thing because its impossible to argue against is SI. I still firmly believe they move ftl.



> He prepared it in advance, he obviously had to concentrate. Not to mention you brought it up first, you post the scan.



When fighting, Goku ALWAYS trys to keep a power lock on his opponent.




> Yeah, actually, that is hard to believe, because NO ONE IN DBZ CAN COME ANYWHERE CLOSE TO DESTROYING THE UNIVERSE!



Sorry again. Solar System. But why is super strength so unrealistic?




> But wouldn't using them in conjunction be even more effective? Unless he couldn't for some reason.



Go look up the effects of kaio-ken. You'll find your answer.




> That's retarded. Honestly, think about what you just wrote. It makes no logical sense. All the characters were depowered in GT and they all jobbed to Goku anyway.



It makes perfect sense. Base Goku stood toe-to-toe with Uub, who was equal to majin Buu. Majin Buu was equal to SSJ3 Goku. Honestly whats so hard to understand?




> What point? That SSJ1 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ1 Goku? Because you didn't even address that. And they were winning because they were attacking here and she was all like "OMGWTF" and then the Announcer disqualified them.



Vegeta had a stronger base. 

Please post the scan of 18 vs Goten and Trunks.
Regardless narually she will do worse vs 2 SSJ than just 1.
Next.



> What after effects? Destroying part of Cell's body? Flying into space? How does that prove anything?



The attack had much more power than needed to destroy earth.



> NO HE COULDN'T! Where are you pulling this 'destroy the universe' crap from?



Same question as before- sub solar system in for universe.




> It's you who needs to reread and rewatch. Even as SSJ3, he was getting beaten, and had to use Genki Dama in order to win, and it still wasn't enough, as he had to have his power restored by the dragonballs.



Go look it up. Please.




> Yet he didn't.


 
But he had the power to.




> Which has destroyed a planet.... when?



Stated that his Kamehameha vs Cell would destroy the planet. 



> Don't just ask me to reread stuff, present your argument so I know what you're talking about. He didn't have any strength feats, and certainly didn't demonstrate anything that requires as much energy as destroying a planet with only physical strength.


 
Sigh. If you go back and read it you'll understand they can choose how to allocate their strength. 



> I did, and that is my reply. Stop copping out.



How is that copping out? I said no technique works on him twice- as is proven time and again. You replied by saying that hes encountered the techniques i posted before, and that why he could beat them. Do you understand that you were agreeing with me?




> In a vs. debate, there is no such thing, because all that is subjective. You have to rely on what objectively happened or else it's all subjective BS.



Keollyn posted a nice reply to this.



> Which is non - canon.....


 
The flashback wasnt filler.



> Did you even watch the scene in question?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol. Coming from the guy who said 100 feet. 
He hit him from half way in the arena, out (have you seen an overview of the area), and to the top of a 100m cliff.





> It is in a vs. debate if you want an objective result.



Again see Keollyns post. 





> Hint: "Taking stuff seriously" doesn't mean "Making crap up that never happened".



Solar System. And Kabitokai says the second part in an episode i believe. Cant remember if its in the manga.




> No, because it is the only logical explanation. It couldn't be pure physical strength, or else he would destroy the floor and the building. Ki is the only possible option. Either that or, by a remarkable coincidence, there just happened to be an actual earthquake there.


 
Artistic Licence. Honestly. 
But i suppose Goku goes to the moon in DB with his powerpole. I guess he can breath in space.  



> Refer to post 984.


 
What? One point where you say something doesnt have to be dense to be strong? 



> Because you asked?


 
I was confused by what you meant by this
"And the part about Mr. Satan disproves your arguments about his injuries." #984



> That's not logic, that's subjective bullshit. Logic would be not trying to make up stupid excuses that contradict what actually happens.



See Keollyns post.




> Then how come their own ki is never released when this happens? Wouldn't we expect to see another ki blast hitting the other one, or a big flash of light, or something?



They stop pure energy. It doesnt explode when it hits them. And they send it back.



> I'll go over this slowly.



No need i understand it quite well.



> Goten and Trunks fuse. They have 30 minutes before the fusion wears off.



Thanks



> Gotenks flies around the world several times (exact number is unknown, the manga shows 5, the anime shows 9, the manga says 'a couple dozen').



So following canon- atleast 24 times.



> He takes a nap for an unknown amount of time.
> 
> Picollo arrives. Gotenks leaves for Buu's house. 1 minute is remaining in the fusion.
> 
> Gotenks arrives at Buu's house, and defuses immediately after, meaning that he took slightly under a minute to get there. Much slower than lightspeed.


 
That is for the sake of the plot. Is it that hard to grasp?



> WTF are you talking about?
> Bulma was outside of the time chamber.



Thank you. My point exactly. Theyre having a full conversation outside of the RoSaT, while Buu and Gotenks are only fighting for about 30 minutes. Less than a second has passed outside, meaning Bulma had her conversation at light speed.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _They can all destroy planets effortlessly, with weak pl. SSJ3 Goku putting all his ki into a single kamehameha should do a lil better than cells (could destroy the universe)._
> 
> Correction, *SOLAR SYSTEM.*



Sorry. But you understand my point. By the end of DBZ he should be able to destroy solar systems easily.



> _Hell in DBGT Goku whipped both Cell and Frieza in his base form, and he was playing around._
> 
> DBGT is pretty inconsistant with DBZ. In DBZ, it's stated that if you killed a dead person again, they cease to exist (Buu Saga). Cell and Frieza were killed again in GT, yet they say that they're immortal.



Maybe cause King Yemma lost his control. I agree DBGT had way too many inconsistancies.



> _As i remember, 1 second hes in the air with Cell laughing. Next, hes next to him and cell is shitting himself. _
> 
> What, the Warp Kamehame Ha? Didn't it take awhile to build up ki?



Yea he built ki for his kamehameha. Cell got scared than realized if Goku attacked hed destroy earth. So he starting laughing. Goku warped, and fired at a freaked out cell.



> _I suppose its hard to believe that someone with the power to destroy the universe with a single attack, could also have superman like strength._
> 
> His physical strength has been hinted at by certain writers that he can destroy planets with unrestrained physical blows. Joe Casey is one of them.
> 
> And correction, it's not a universe.



Sorry again about that. I just dont think that would be a huge stretch. BTW do you have any pages of supes doing that? Sounds pretty badass.



> _Cell could destroy the universe. Therefore logic dictates that Goku could destroy much more._
> 
> You seriously got to stop saying universe.
> In addition, Cell's statement of destroying the solar system has been argued to have been a hyperbole, among fans in and out of DBZ.



Following Mikes logic. It was said, so its a fact.



> _It was for comedy. I dont see how you dont understand that. Not everything is meant to be taken seriously._
> 
> In debates like these, it has to be explained.



Explain Goku going to the moon. Not everything always makes sense.




> _Goten and Trunks in the RoSaT. In the span of less than 30 seconds Bulma and co have an entire conversation. An example of artisitc licence used to further the plot. _
> 
> . . . Wha?
> 
> Time in the Room of Space and Time runs differently than the world outside it.




see my response to mike


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 5, 2006)

As for solar system vs. universe.

Solar system = finite, with out expanding at all.

Universe = finite, but expands faster in every direction than light speed.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_That is for the sake of the plot. Is it that hard to grasp?_

It could be, it could be not. We don't exactly know for sure whether Gotenks wanted to draw out his trip or was actually reaching there as fast as he can.

_But i suppose Goku goes to the moon in DB with his powerpole. I guess he can breath in space. _

If this was true in DB, then you kind of figure -- what's the grief of going to a spaceship on Namek?

_Explain Goku going to the moon. Not everything always makes sense._

Didn't you say he used his power pole?

If that was true, I could believe it. From what the power pole was based on in the Monkey King story, I can believe it.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

> =Comic Book Guy It could be, it could be not. We don't exactly know for sure whether Gotenks wanted to draw out his trip or was actually reaching there as fast as he can.
> 
> *If you don't know then do not make baseless claims. Note that Gotenks was in Super Saiya-jin 1 mode and not even trying.*
> 
> ...





> You're not getting it. DBZ power levels increase some stats more than others, this can clearly be observed.



Endless Mike this damn line here prooves (again) you know nothing of DBZ! Please expalin to me how in the hell did you come to this conclusion that "Powerlevels increase some stats more than others?" If you knew anything about Dragonball Z(which you don't) the damn Cell vs. USSJ Trunks already disproved your whack ass theory!

SSJ Krilllin thanks for posting that information, I really appreciate it.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

double post.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_If you don't know then do not make baseless claims._

Baseless claim?

I'm saying that based on what we have on hand -- Gotenks' 1 minute trip -- we don't know whether it is him actually trying to get there or him drawing out the trip.

_Goku's punches creates shockwaves that destroys mountains and creates barriers in the ground._

Destroyed mountains from force shockwaves alone? Since when?

Dents in the ground, check.

_Supes in battle does not do that damage. _

Darkseid fight from far earlier.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 5, 2006)

At times I wonder if Phenomenol gets his Superman knowledge from Superman 64...


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy Baseless claim?

I'm saying that based on what we have on hand -- Gotenks' 1 minute trip -- we don't know whether it is him actually trying to get there or him drawing out the trip.

[B said:
			
		

> What are you talking about, that is plot induced stupidity, Gotenks went around the world faster than that damn trip and you guys want to nitpick at that? Shows that you have no argument.[/B]
> 
> Destroyed mountains from force shockwaves alone? Since when?
> 
> ...



No, Superman in battle is not impressive, he can not beat Goku who is a Martial Artist and has way more fighting experience.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No, Superman in battle is not impressive, he can not beat Goku who is a Martial Artist and has way more fighting experience.


More fighting experience than several hundred years?


----------



## FinalDragon13 (Jul 5, 2006)

Superman has several hundred years of fighitng experience?!?!?

i still think Goku would kick major ass... also i think the original superman was developted saying that his home planet was 100x's bigger then Earth so then when he came here thats y he could fly and move so fast, cuz his body was used to 100x's earths gravity... so with that info when Goku trained to go to Namek he was under 100x's gravity so that means a level one super sayain Goku would be on par wiht superman, so super sayian 4 would kick major ass

(IMO)


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

_At times I wonder if Phenomenol gets his Superman knowledge from Superman 64..._

Oh, god. Don't EVER mention that crap game again. . .

_What are you talking about, that is plot induced stupidity, Gotenks went around the world faster than that damn trip and you guys want to nitpick at that? Shows that you have no argument_

No, it's an iesue to address in debating about Gotenks' speed.

_Goku vs. Majin Vegeta, Piccolo vs. Cell, Goku vs. cell, Freiza vs. Goku! Go look them up._

Let's see. . . that'll be quite a couple of hours of my time.

Sigh. . .  I'd better get started. . .

_Superman has several hundred years of fighitng experience?!?!?_

A thousand years, with Wonder Woman (a VERY interested Wonder Woman, mind you) at his side.

_i still think Goku would kick major ass... also i think the original superman was developted saying that his home planet was 100x's bigger then Earth so then when he came here thats y he could fly and move so fast, cuz his body was used to 100x's earths gravity... so with that info when Goku trained to go to Namek he was under 100x's gravity so that means a level one super sayain Goku would be on par wiht superman, so super sayian 4 would kick major ass_

Ah, the Krypton bigger than Earth bit. Pre-Crisis days. . .

Well, excuse me while I search and watch the fights on YouTube. . . I'll be back by tomorrow, judging from the lengths of the fights.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Oh, god. Don't EVER mention that crap game again. . .
> 
> *Yes that game was garbage why in the hell would maggot mention that? When he has not posted a single post worthy of debate.*
> 
> ...



Yeah you do that!


----------



## Countach (Jul 5, 2006)

so bruce lee can beat superman


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> so bruce lee can beat superman



Did you even read my post?


----------



## ShikamaruNara (Jul 5, 2006)

Superman. No contest. No weaknesses. And in the world of DBZ there is no kryptonite (SP? Lol.). I think.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Did you even read my post?



Do you read anyone's posts?


----------



## Countach (Jul 5, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Did you even read my post?




well bruce lee is the greatest martal artist ever, and since u say martal arts is the only thing that matters, bruce lee sould beat superman


----------



## Gaara722 (Jul 5, 2006)

There's a reason Superman is called Man of Steel. In comics he couldnt even cut his hair and he can take any bullet you shoot at him.That and 1 time he flew around the world fast enuff to make it spin the way he flew.in short Superman wins.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

man of steel? LOL 

Did you even read Hunter/prey, the death of Superman, JLA?

Superman was beaten to death.!!!


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _That is for the sake of the plot. Is it that hard to grasp?_
> 
> It could be, it could be not. We don't exactly know for sure whether Gotenks wanted to draw out his trip or was actually reaching there as fast as he can.



Since you said youre going on youtube i suggest you examine the clip of gotenks and his 1 min flight (same to Mike). Notice that it was neccessary for the plot, that his fusion wears off. If AT had wrote him arriving there at light speed, he would have had time to challenge Buu (which he would have 100% cause hes cocky and confident in his powers). The result would be two dead demi-saiyans, and the whole fusion arc/even Buu story ruined.  (and Mike if youre reading this- watch USSJ Trunks vs Cell from after his stay in the RoSaT, and also watch the Kid Buu vs SSJ3 Goku- just a tip)



> _But i suppose Goku goes to the moon in DB with his powerpole. I guess he can breath in space. _
> 
> If this was true in DB, then you kind of figure -- what's the grief of going to a spaceship on Namek?



That scene was for comedy (he makes Boss Rabbit make candy on the moon). But no one is arguing that saiyans breathe in space. This is why you shouldnt take every scene in DB/Z at full worth- some are for comedic value, or just silly. 
And about your spaceship question- namek is really, really, really far away. I think Bulma explains that it would take one of her ships a couple hundred years or something.



> _Explain Goku going to the moon. Not everything always makes sense._
> 
> Didn't you say he used his power pole?
> 
> If that was true, I could believe it. From what the power pole was based on in the Monkey King story, I can believe it.



What i mean is how do you explain him breathing in space?



> Destroyed mountains from force shockwaves alone? Since when?
> 
> Dents in the ground, check.



All the fights phenom posted. 
Also note he beat chi-chi in a powered down form in DB by simply punching in her direction from the other side of the ring- pushing her out (he didnt want to hurt her).


And about gokus combat skill. He is the best martial artist ever. I repeat ever. He is strongest in Otherworld- which consists of the greatest fighters of *all time*, some of whom have been training for 1000's of years. Hes been training against every style. He was even trained by a Kai- someone who governs over a section of the galaxy.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 5, 2006)

Gaara722 said:
			
		

> There's a reason Superman is called Man of Steel. In comics he couldnt even cut his hair and he can take any bullet you shoot at him.That and 1 time he flew around the world fast enuff to make it spin the way he flew.in short Superman wins.



Goku has the power to destroy a solar system. He can travel to another being no matter how far away instantaneously. He's the strongest in his respective galaxy, and in all its history.
Oh and about bullets- Read or watch the first episode/chapter of DB.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 5, 2006)

Just to make a few quick comments in here.

_What i mean is how do you explain him breathing in space?_

I suppose in DB, Goku didn't need oxygen as much as the regular human.

That said, you kind of figure -- with DBZ being a sequel to DBZ, Goku didn't have to worry about much when Namek went critical. Yet, he did.

Inconsistency?

_All the fights phenom posted. 
Also note he beat chi-chi in a powered down form in DB by simply punching in her direction from the other side of the ring- pushing her out (he didnt want to hurt her)._

I'm not talking about where bodies being hit and consequently destroying everything in their path.

I'm talking about mountains are destroyed from the resulting force shockwaves from the impact of blows alone.

Oh, can anyone give me a hand in listing the episodes that has the important aspects of the fight? Good help if you would.

_He is the best martial artist ever. _

In terms of DBZ? Most likely.

In terms of fiction? I disagree.

Pre-Crisis Karate Kid from the Legion of Super-Heroes is arguably the most skilled martial artist in fiction.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Jul 5, 2006)

Canon-wise, Mystic Gohan is the strongest non-fused character in DBZ, not Goku.

As for destroying a solar system, unless he blows up the sun, he could only do it like Kid Buu and blow up each planet one by one.


----------



## Id (Jul 5, 2006)

This thread is still alive?
Gokus punches and kicks create shock waves that  destroys mountains.
Supermans punches and kicks create shock waves that destroys planets.

Goku gets punched across a mountain.
Superman Gets Punched across the orbit thru planets.

Goku died from a planet destroying attack.
Superman survives a Galaxy ending attack.

Goku at his max held half a city
Superman Pushes planets.

Oh but this one is a nice one (and overlooked.)
Dbz Fans get to chose any incarnation of Goku to debate.
Comic fans use Superman?s weakest incarnation  and still pulls of better feats then Goku.

That?s it for today

Bye.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 5, 2006)

Damn I hate the dub, Not only is the dialogue wrong and the information is wrong it is horrible... I have no choice because I only have the japanese DVD's! I can not post those.

Link removed

Faster than light Feat..

Some more speed feats in battle both by Freiza and Goku, Superman has never displayed reflexes and speed like this in battle..

Neji Hyuuga love story

Neji Hyuuga love story

Damn I hate the dub but this is speed that Superman has never faced before he won'ttouch Goku.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 6, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> This thread is still alive?
> 
> Supermans punches and kicks create shock waves that destroys planets.
> 
> ...



Bye, thanks for your opinion though.


----------



## solidspartan (Jul 6, 2006)

" My name is Recoom it rhymes with doom and you'll be hurting all too soon."
Poetry doesn't get any better.


----------



## Countach (Jul 6, 2006)

wow Delete that post now


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 6, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Just to make a few quick comments in here.
> 
> _What i mean is how do you explain him breathing in space?_
> 
> ...



Thats why not every event in dbz should be taken at face-value.



> _All the fights phenom posted.
> Also note he beat chi-chi in a powered down form in DB by simply punching in her direction from the other side of the ring- pushing her out (he didnt want to hurt her)._
> 
> I'm not talking about where bodies being hit and consequently destroying everything in their path.
> ...



I havent watched the show in ages but from what i remember.
Goku vs Vegeta, i believe, is 214-216. Most of the intense fighting comes in the latter two.

Goku Cell starts at 160. 164 (might be 165) is where the ring is destroyed. 1 or 2 eps of them fighting, followed by gohan. Although 164? (its called No more Rules, shows the pressure of their attacks really well- with a small rock just exploding into dust).
Check out Goku in 53. Speed feat.
230 or 231 (cant recall) is Goku almost destroying the world powering up.
Goku vs Buu shows some of the stuff - 265 (i think) is a good episode called vegetas respect. 
About 4 eps in either direction will give you more mountain destroying goodness.
Oh and one of my favs- Vegeta doing final flash- *EP 147*
Hope that helps a bit. I havent watched DBZ in a long time so some eps might be 1 or 2 off.



> _He is the best martial artist ever. _
> 
> In terms of DBZ? Most likely.
> 
> ...



I meant in regards to his own universe. In DBZ he is the greatest fighter of all time.


Edit:Just noticed- Phenom posted some good eps.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 6, 2006)

> " My name is Recoom it rhymes with doom and you'll be hurting all too soon." Poetry doesn't get any better.



This is why I hate the dub.


----------



## Countach (Jul 6, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> This is why I hate the dub.



the dub does suck, but atleast it's not fillers


----------



## Kuya (Jul 6, 2006)

Goku is too powerful and too fast for him. Watch the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight, and where he fights kid buu.


----------



## solidspartan (Jul 6, 2006)

There is nothing really wrong with the dub aside from maybe a mistranlation or two, I don't know why people hate it so much.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 6, 2006)

Goku got killed by Raditz. Lolol, Raditz is complete weakling. This is kinda similar to you Doomsday argument Phenom. Except Doomsday is hella lot stronger, faster and more hard to kill than Raditz.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 6, 2006)

solidspartan said:
			
		

> There is nothing really wrong with the dub aside from maybe a mistranlation or two, I don't know why people hate it so much.



I just recently watched the dubbed of DBZ movie #8..... Let me just say that I now officially HATE that movie. And the sad thing is... it was my favorite DBZ ANYTHING.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 6, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> I just recently watched the dubbed of DBZ movie #8..... Let me just say that I now officially HATE that movie. And the sad thing is... it was my favorite DBZ ANYTHING.



Thats the brolly one right? Really good. I havent seen the dub- howd they butcher it? If they messed with vegeta shitting himself i'll be pissed. I oculd see them messing up real bad with Brollys voice when he says Kakarotto.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 6, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Goku got killed by Raditz. Lolol, Raditz is complete weakling.



What are you talking about? Goku did not get killed by Radditz, Goku sacrificed his life so that Piccolo can use his Makansapopo.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 6, 2006)

Wow, I leave for a day or two and this is what happens.

I hope people haven't actually been buying phenomen - LOL's crap.

(However I do see that his reputation has suffered a lot).


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Wow, I leave for a day or two and this is what happens.
> 
> I hope people haven't actually been buying phenomen - LOL's crap.
> 
> (However I do see that his reputation has suffered a lot).



No all that I have posted is the truth Mike! You have yet to refute anything and disproove them.

My reputation dropped in another thread, Not in this thread!

Goku beats Supes it is over.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

> Goku beats Supes it is over.



Explain this.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

Um, no, after giving the last few pages a quick run - over, it seems you've just been spewing out the same repetitive crap that you've been doing for the entire thread.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

That means you have not read the last two pages..


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

Of course I did. It's all the same, "DBZ moves faster than light (no proof)", "DBZ has planet - moving strength (no proof)" , "DBZ is faster and has better reflexes (no proof)," etc.

The same stuff you've been saying since the beginning of the thread.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Very funny for a guy who knows nothing of DBZ and Superman and yet you claim you know.

DBZ fights faster than light! just look at your favorite dub videos. They move way faster than Superman!

Anyways you have yet to proove why Superman will win in an actual FIGHT, COMBAT, BATTLE!


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

Really, so they can go from Saturn to Earth in 4 minutes on pure speed?

Because Superman did that.

SHOW CALCULATIONS THAT PROVE THEY MOVE FASTER THAN LIGHT OR SHUT UP.


----------



## Countach (Jul 7, 2006)

oww, who neg reped phenoml, thats sad


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Really, so they can go from Saturn to Earth in 4 minutes on pure speed?
> 
> *They move faster than light in battle! look at the episodes! Superman has not done this either if you are reffering to that scan it said no such thing so stop.*
> 
> ...



No need for calculations, they show their FTL in battle watch the episodes.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _DBZ fights faster than light! _
> 
> Yet, in some fights, the environment still goes on at its usual, real-world pace relative to the fights that happen.
> 
> From our perspective in watching combatants fighting at FTL speed, everything around them should be literally still, only moving when the combatants interact with them.



Watch the episodes CMB it is easily noticable when they are in battle.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 7, 2006)

_Watch the episodes CMB it is easily noticable when they are in battle._

I'm still in the process. I'm nearly at the end of all the major Frieza saga battles.

Note, I'm doing this chronologically.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Also watch the episodes that I put up on the last page.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 7, 2006)

_User has been to hell and back: -2,000,000,000+ _

The Mihawk vs. Demon Eyes Kyo thread, I presume?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Yes, because many people are ignorant about One Piece.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 7, 2006)

I never was interested in anime post-2000. The only one so far is Full Metal Panic (Fumoffu, actually. I never laughed so hard in my life).

Manga-wise, I'm in Naruto, surprisingly. I didn't think I would like it at first, but damn was I wrong.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Cool!

Well I hope you enjoy Naruto, and Full Metal is pretty good.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 7, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> What are you talking about? Goku did not get killed by Radditz, Goku sacrificed his life so that Piccolo can use his Makansapopo.


Oh yeah, he did. But Piccolo is even weaker than Raditz.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 7, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, he did. But Piccolo is even weaker than Raditz.



PL wise, hes only weaker by about 60 points which is basically nothing.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, he did. But Piccolo is even weaker than Raditz.



Konflikti you need to realize that Piccolo's Makansapopo was stronger than Both Goku and Radditz, Piccolo consentrated all of his Ki into that one attack thus making that power level greater than Radditz and Goku.

Goku was never beaten to death like weak ass Superman!


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 7, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Konflikti you need to realize that Piccolo's Makansapopo was stronger than Both Goku and Radditz, Piccolo consentrated all of his Ki into that one attack thus making that power level greater than Radditz and Goku.
> 
> Goku was never beaten to death like weak ass Superman!


Goku's only died several times, right?


----------



## konflikti (Jul 7, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Konflikti you need to realize that Piccolo's Makansapopo was stronger than Both Goku and Radditz, Piccolo consentrated all of his Ki into that one attack thus making that power level greater than Radditz and Goku.
> 
> Goku was never beaten to death like weak ass Superman!



Yea, he was shot to death by weak ass green Namekian. Died because of small hole. Lol.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

A small hole? IT WAS TEH SIZES OF YOUR FREAKING HEAD! Shows you how much changing can the Canadians do to the show. 

Anyway, Goku ssj 4 > Super man, know why?

Goku: kame- Huh? Oh crap he's coming

Superman: Take this!

Goku: *Teleports behind Superman*

Superman: What?!

Goku: HA!!!!

Just like he did to cell. Exact that Superman can't regenerate lol.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 7, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> Goku's only died several times, right?


Twice right?

Vs Raditz, as addressed, Raditz didnt kill him. He held him in place so Piccolos attack would connect. He died not really caring, as the Dragonballs could bring him back.

Vs Cell he only died cause he didnt want everyone else to. Else he could have just warped to Kings Kai's planet alone and left everyone else with Cell on earth.

Both were sacrifices (for others). He has never been beaten to death.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

If superman was like Broly, then I would belive that Goku could run into trouble. But Broly > Superman so Goku > Superman


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 7, 2006)

Leoman said:
			
		

> A small hole? IT WAS TEH SIZES OF YOUR FREAKING HEAD! Shows you how much changing can the Canadians do to the show.
> 
> Anyway, Goku ssj 4 > Super man, know why?
> 
> ...


I see one problem in your plan, how do you know Goku's Kamehameha can take out Superman?


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

If it could take out Bebi Vegeta in Oozaru form and Cell as well, it take out Super Man.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 7, 2006)

Maggot Brain said:
			
		

> I see one problem in your plan, how do you know Goku's Kamehameha can take out Superman?



Gokus kamehameha can destroy solar systems and then some... and then a lot actually.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

It's not like we can actualy put it to a test, but it's the most logical system. I mean the Kamehameha of Master Roshy destroyd the moon and he isn't nearly or anywhere near as strong as Goku in ss4. It's like saying a Mouse against an Elephant.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Gokus kamehameha can destroy solar systems and then some... and then a lot actually.



Where did it say this? All you need to do to end a solar system is end its sun, and thats no big feat. Goku did a kamehameha directly into a star once and it didn't do anything to it


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

Show me where he did such a thing.

And also, show me a link to Hinata's Botty


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

This is just getting pathetic now.

Honestly, standing there, taking a second to lock onto a position, and then teleporting will do nothing against Superman.

Superman reacts so much faster he will just already be at the destination first and then pound the crap out of Goku when he arrives.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

Leoman said:
			
		

> Show me where he did such a thing.
> 
> And also, show me a link to Hinata's Botty



It was when he was going to Namek and his ship was heading for a star.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 7, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Where did it say this? All you need to do to end a solar system is end its sun, and thats no big feat. Goku did a kamehameha directly into a star once and it didn't do anything to it




Cell games. Cell states his kamehameha (a move copied exactly from goku) has the power to destroy a solar system- theres a link a few pages back.
He said he put enough energy (ki) into it to do this. Therefore, SSJ3 Goku or SSJ4 Goku (even base DBGT Goku who toyed with cell in hell) who are all >>>>>>>>>>> Cell, i.e. have more ki, logically can put more ki into attacks and destroy much more. Savy?


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

Well DUHHHH. He wasn't SS back then -.-


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

If we want to go by what people said they could do, Imperiex said he had the power of the Big Bang and could destroy the universe, but Superman (Post - Crisis) beat him.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

People say alot of things in Dragonball. Mr. Satan said he beat Cell. Doesn't make it true. 

Kamehameha can destroy a solar system when it actually destroys a solar system.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

Just because he didn't do it, doesn't mean he can. Broly who isn't as powerful as Goku ss4, destroyd an entier GLAXIE all by himself.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

Broly isn't canon...


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 7, 2006)

Leoman said:
			
		

> Just because he didn't do it, doesn't mean he can. Broly who isn't as powerful as Goku ss4, destroyd an entier GLAXIE all by himself.


Glaxie? What's that?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

I think it's some kind of decorating glitter.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

*Galaxie

Pardon my freanch lol. But anyway yeah. Broli > Southern Galaxie.

Superman has a tough time trying ot move a planet. So there.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

Brolly ISN'T canon.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

Who the hell is canon -.-


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)




----------



## Dark Evangel (Jul 7, 2006)

I doubt that Goku's punches will hurt Superman. We have seen Goku got physically hurt countless times. not to mention Superman in bloodlust mode would hit Goku while charging up.


----------



## Leoman (Jul 7, 2006)

Like hell he is. They mention him like they mention cell when Bojack appears.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> This is just getting pathetic now.
> 
> Honestly, standing there, taking a second to lock onto a position, and then teleporting will do nothing against Superman.
> 
> ...



Superman what? Are you on medication? Superman is no where near Goku in Speed nor reaction. Go look at the damn vidoes on page 51 0r 52! Superman has never faced anyone with that kind of speed nor has he displayed that kind of Speed. I can post Superman getting his slow ass tagged by someone slow like the Shaggy Man! Faster reactions my ass.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 7, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Superman what? Are you on medication? Superman is no where near Goku in Speed nor reaction. Go look at the damn vidoes on page 51 0r 52! Superman has never faced anyone with that kind of speed nor has he displayed that kind of Speed. I can post Superman getting his slow ass tagged by someone slow like the Shaggy Man! Faster reactions my ass.


He's only faced the Flash, right? I mean, pff, like that's a big speed feat example.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

Bojack is not canon either.

The movies are not canon, they contradict the anime and manga too much.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Bojack is not canon either.
> 
> The movies are not canon, they contradict the anime and manga too much.



No they don't. You even have movies that are in line with the actual story. Once again Mike you need to listen.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 7, 2006)

You sending him audio files, or summat?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No they don't. You even have movies that are in line with the actual story. Once again Mike you need to listen.



They STILL don't count.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> They STILL don't count.



I know that I am saying that most of the movies stay with in the story.

Superman is weak and overrated period.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

I must have posted this question 100 times here.

You say Goku would beat Superman. Explain please?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Go read from page 10 on up, and go look at the damn videos. It is evident that Superman can not fight with Goku.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

No its not. I'm asking YOU to explain it.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Jul 7, 2006)

I knew it. You have no idea.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 7, 2006)

Read from page 10 on up!

I am not going to explain to someone who has not participated in this thread with descent debates and you have been here from the start.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 7, 2006)

Maybe he/she just didn't want to try reasoning with your idiocy from the start?

Honestly, I've watched all the videos you've posted, and I see nothing that could possibly help him last for long against Superman.

So what exactly is in these videos that you specifically think is so great?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Maybe he/she just didn't want to try reasoning with your idiocy from the start?
> 
> Honestly, I've watched all the videos you've posted, and I see nothing that could possibly help him last for long against Superman.
> 
> So what exactly is in these videos that you specifically think is so great?





The one who is the idiot here is you. Mike you have made no arguments all you have done was feed off of whatever Comic Book Guys has posted, which Shows how weak you are. Like I said you are a cheerleader.

What's in these videos? mmmm.. things Superman has never dispalyed before in battle. Plain and simple.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

DBGT is canon. But if you'll direct your eyes to the title of this thread you should examine the number after 3. Meaning canon is allowed in the thread- question is, to what extent. 

We have non-canon scenes like piccolo remarking on raditz moving ftl, and broly destroying a galaxy. 

Personally i choose to keep movies out of the debate, but if we can start including them i wouldnt be angry.

@Suzumebachi- gokus speed, strength, and his huge ki levels. For more details go back and read the thread.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

Superman sends his non-canon daughter to slap up Goku in his place. The end.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Superman sends his non-canon daughter to slap up Goku in his place. The end.



Goku summons the eternal dragon of namek and has superman turned into a puppy, which he procedes to punt into space.
Game over.
Please insert more coins.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

> *Originally Posted By Kelloyn*
> Superman sends his non-canon daughter to slap up Goku in his place. The end.





			
				SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Goku summons the eternal dragon of namek and has superman turned into a puppy, which he procedes to punt into space.
> Game over.
> Please insert more coins.



LOL!  

That is the knockout punch!


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

With the limitful dragon at the helm of a wish... I doubt it. I can get more wishes granted from a 7 Eleven than Shenlong.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Weak ass Superman would love for that Dragon to bring back Krypton!


----------



## konflikti (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Twice right?
> 
> Vs Raditz, as addressed, Raditz didnt kill him. He held him in place so Piccolos attack would connect. He died not really caring, as the Dragonballs could bring him back.
> 
> ...


He couldn't have beaten either one of them. He would have lost, if not for other people and his sacrifice. How does that make him better than Supes?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

And once again, knowing Shenlong, that wish is BEYOND him. Poor excuse for a wish granter.... Disney's Genie > Shenlong.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

The line about Raditz was a dub error, it doesn't exist in the original sub or manga.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> He couldn't have beaten either one of them. He would have lost, if not for other people and his sacrifice. How does that make him better than Supes?



Konflikti it has occured to me that you are chatting garbage and you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Just stop it.

Goku never has been beaten to death like Supes that's why!


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

Goku was pwned by a heart disease. It doesn't get any more pathetic than that...


----------



## konflikti (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Konflikti it has occured to me that *I'm* chatting garbage and you have no idea what the hell *I'm* talking about. *I* just can't stop it.
> 
> *I'm* DBZtard to no limit, that's why!


Fix'd.

That's because he was too afraid to fight the opponents he had no chance winning. He had to rely in the help of his son/friends.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Fix'd.
> 
> That's because he was too afraid to fight the opponents he had no chance winning. He had to rely in the help of his son/friends.



Yeah, Where did you draw this card? from the label ASS!


----------



## konflikti (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Yeah, Where did you draw this card? from the label ASS!



Oh, so you accept that my reasoning is correct? Or if you don't, try at least disproving it, won't you?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

you do not know what you are talking about! Radditz was stronger than Goku from the get go! You are not making any debates here, you are just being stupid.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Fix'd.
> 
> That's because he was too afraid to fight the opponents he had no chance winning. He had to rely in the help of his son/friends.



nope he fought both of them. even though both were much stronger.
i suppose supes has never fought with other ppl eh? 
bout cell- goku could have warped away leaving everyone, thus surviving. At this point everyone (yes even cell) were under the impression that his self-destruct would also kill himself. 

Still stands. Goku has never been beaten to death. Supes on the other hand...



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The line about Raditz was a dub error, it doesn't exist in the original sub or manga.



Whoops thanks for pointing that out. i meant non-canon.



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> Goku was pwned by a heart disease. It doesn't get any more pathetic than that...



Try a green rock that allows a toddler on a tricycle to kill you.

BTW black star dragonballs can kill


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Try a green rock that allows a toddler on a tricycle to kill you.
> 
> BTW black star dragonballs can kill



Umm... Upper Supes > Kypronite. Upper Goku < Diseases.

And I guess you don't know much about Superman, because I sure don't rememeber the rock harming him to begin with...


----------



## konflikti (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> nope he fought both of them.
> i suppose supes has never fought with other ppl eh?
> bout cell- goku could have warped away leaving everyone, thus surviving. At this point everyone (yes even cell) were under the impression that his self-destruct would also kill himself.



...you know, Superman could have just fine flew to the other edge of the solar system and left Doomsday rage on Earth. Too bad he was the only dude cabable of beating Doomsday. THUS HE SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO SAVE THE EARTH. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Goku on the other hand, never even had the chance to beat Cell, Raditz or Buu(to name a few) by himself.

Goku not being beaten to death doesn't contribute anything to the thread. It's just dull line Phenom keeps throwing because he believes that the way somebody dies actually means something. Like, people dying to self-destruct are more powerful than those dying to beat-ups.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Umm... Upper Supes > Kypronite. Upper Goku < Diseases.
> 
> And I guess you don't know much about Superman, because I sure don't rememeber the rock harming him to begin with...



No you are the one who does not know much about both Goku and Superman. Goku did not die by heart disease, You need to think and go read some damn Comics because the little green rock is very effective against your bitch in tights.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No you are the one who does not know much about both Goku and Superman. *Goku did not die by heart disease*, You need to think and go read some damn Comics because the little green rock is very effective against your bitch in tights.



So then, pray tell us what did kill Goku in Mirai Trunk's universe?


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> No you are the one who does not know much about both Goku and Superman. Goku did not die by heart disease, You need to think and go read some damn Comics because the little green rock is very effective against your bitch in tights.



Unless pwn means dying these days, I guess I did say Goku died by a heart disease.

And the rock doesn't harm him. Please listen to what you're saying carefully.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> ...you know, Superman could have just fine flew to the other edge of the solar system and left Doomsday rage on Earth. Too bad he was the only dude cabable of beating Doomsday. THUS HE SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO SAVE THE EARTH. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Goku on the other hand, never even had the chance to beat Cell, Raditz or Buu(to name a few) by himself.
> 
> *Chatting garbage again, Supes tried to fly to the Sun in the Doomsday battle but yet Doom ran after Superman and jumped on his slow ass. Also Doomsday had to fight the entire Justice League then he owned Superman's Ass. Goku beat Buu so cut the crap.*
> 
> Goku not being beaten to death doesn't contribute anything to the thread. It's just dull line Phenom keeps throwing because he believes that the way somebody dies actually means something. Like, people dying to self-destruct are more powerful than those dying to beat-ups.



Yes, Superman getting his ass beat not only by Doomsady but I can name other characters who have raped Supes. My point is Superman is never impressive in battle. All of those pushing feats don't mean a damn thing when Supes is getting crushed in battle.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Umm... Upper Supes > Kypronite. Upper Goku < Diseases.
> 
> And I guess you don't know much about Superman, because I sure don't rememeber the rock harming him to begin with...



LMAO 




			
				konflikti said:
			
		

> ...you know, Superman could have just fine flew to the other edge of the solar system and left Doomsday rage on Earth. Too bad he was the only dude cabable of beating Doomsday. THUS HE SACRIFICED HIMSELF TO SAVE THE EARTH. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Goku on the other hand, never even had the chance to beat Cell, Raditz or Buu(to name a few) by himself.



Theres a slight difference. Cell was already beaten at that point.

Supes has had his ass handed to him a fair number of times.

And ppl need to stop saying Goku couldnt beat Buu. He could as SSJ3, but he didnt want everyone else to depend on him.



> Goku not being beaten to death doesn't contribute anything to the thread. It's just dull line Phenom keeps throwing because he believes that the way somebody dies actually means something. Like, people dying to self-destruct are more powerful than those dying to beat-ups.



Someone else brought up the 'beat up thing' a while ago, and another person said Goku was 'killed several times'.
I replied with his two deaths and their reasons. Dying to save everyone else is entirly different from some guy putting a fist through your stomach.
Its also relevant to this discussion as it shows Goku can take a beating- which is basically the only way Supes could kill him.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> And the rock doesn't harm him. Please listen to what you're saying carefully.



if by doesnt harm you mean potencially kill him... then yes


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> LMAO



It's great when a debater can laugh at their mistakes.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> It's great when a debater can laugh at their mistakes.



are you serious?

i cant believe i actually have to post this.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Green Kryptonite: The most common form of kryptonite. In superpowered Kryptonians, causes immediate physical pain and debilitation and kills within hours. Has no short-term effects on humans (though strictly in post-Crisis continuity, long-term exposure is apparently lethal to humans) or non-superpowered Kryptonians. In one early Silver Age story, Superboy built up immunity to specific chunks of green kryptonite through repeated non-fatal exposure, as seen in the story "The Great Kryptonite Mystery", (Superboy (volume 1) #58, July 1957). In most incarnations, lead blocks the effects of kryptonite. 


 

How can you honestly even be in here if youve never heard of kryptonite.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

Um... I guess you still believe the ROCK kills him, huh?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 8, 2006)

Still watching the episodes. At home here, there's not opportunities to actually sit around for a good half hour without your parents wanting you to do something.

_DBGT is canon._

The Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z manga are canon. Dragon Ball GT is only anime canon, being the sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime.

The anime adaption of DB and DBZ portrays what is from the manga canon, and should really be used in debates. Anime filler and DBGT shouldn't really be used; we don't need to add in more contradictions.

If you're going to use non-canon examples, then I'll just bring in Elseworlds Superman feats.

And Kryptonite is not an automatic kill.

Link removed

Liquid K in his body.

In Superan/Batman as well, he was shot with a Kryptonite Bullet. And still lived.

Oh, and in addition with the DBZ episodes, I'm re-reading the Death of Superman for more reference material.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Kryptonite was produced from the material of Superman's home planet Krypton, when it was destroyed in an explosion. Kryptonite is usually found in the form of a glowing green *rock* or metal



Yet you believed the rock kills him.... You've FINALLY pointed out (well somewhat) that the radiation FROM the rock kills him. And once again, upper Supes > Kyptonite... whereas Goku is pretty much suseptible to diseases. So I guess if you're going to point out that ONE specific radiation harms/kills Superman, I can point out that EVERY KNOWN fatal radiation to human harms/kills Goku.

Is that check and mate?


----------



## konflikti (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Someone else brought up the 'beat up thing' a while ago, and another person said Goku was 'killed several times'.
> I replied with his two deaths and their reasons. Dying to save everyone else is entirly different from some guy putting a fist through your stomach.
> Its also relevant to this discussion as it shows Goku can take a beating- which is basically the only way Supes could kill him.



It's still dying. Get this trough your head. If you die, you die. The means don't matter. You save everyone, then die. Nice job, you're still dead. Doesn't make you any better than the other guy.

...how the hell is Goku not dying to beat-ups relevant to discussion? Lot humans die of old age. Does that mean they're imprevious to bullets? Your reasoning makes no sense.


----------



## symbiotic78 (Jul 8, 2006)

Unfortunatley with all of his firepower and how badly he can be hurt Goku can not win this fight unless he uses Kryptonite.  That is the only way Goku has any hope of defeating Superman.  Saiyans are not invincible, but Superman is.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 8, 2006)

_Saiyans are not invincible, but Superman is._

Small comment here.

Very few things are totally invincible. Usually, the term would relate to infallible.

Both characters are not infallible, and therefore not invincible.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> Um... I guess you still believe the ROCK kills him, huh?



The Rock still seriously weakens Superman! You are talking as if he is not effected by Kryptonite or something which is highly not the case.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 8, 2006)

Well. . . it depends on the writer.

Some times, the rock seriously weakens him to the point of being completely incapacitated.

Nowadays, and more consistently, Superman can still somewhat manage even when exposed to Kryptonite or after. Take note, he's still affected by Kryptonite, but is not completely incapacitated. The Liquid K scan I posted helps clarify a bit.


----------



## Key (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJ4 Gogeta might be able to win.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Kryptonite subject does not matter. Goku beats Supes.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Kryptonite subject does not matter. Goku beats Supes.


You've still yet to prove this, boy.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> The Rock still seriously weakens Superman! You are talking as if he is not effected by Kryptonite or something which is highly not the case.



Last time. The ROCK does NOT HARM Superman. Stop saying that as it is inaccurate.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn, Go read some Comics and then you will understand. Superman is still effected by kryptonite.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

It's like idocy is a disease one has a hard time curing. I know what kyptonite is, it seems like you and your buddy don't. He's harmed by kyptonite, not the rock. If you'll stop trying to bash Superman, maybe'll understand too.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> DBGT is non-canon. But if you'll direct your eyes to the title of this thread you should examine the number after 3. Meaning canon is allowed in the thread- question is, to what extent.
> 
> We have non-canon scenes like piccolo remarking on raditz moving ftl, and broly destroying a galaxy.
> 
> ...



Edit: Ugh kept writing canon instead of non-canon


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

CBG said:
			
		

> The Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z manga are canon. Dragon Ball GT is only anime canon, being the sequel to the Dragon Ball Z anime.



Yea my bad. That was the second time i wrote canon instead of non-canon. Sorry bout that accident.



			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> It's like idocy is a disease one has a hard time curing. I know what kyptonite is, it seems like you and your buddy don't. He's harmed by kyptonite, not the rock. If you'll stop trying to bash Superman, maybe'll understand too.



My original quote was 





> Try a green rock that allows a toddler on a tricycle to kill you.



When hes around that rock, depending on the writer, bad shit happens to him. He loses his powers, or gets really sick to the brink of death- yeilding him harmless (depending).
Exposure over a long time (hours) could potencially kill him- as it can super powered kryptonians.

You obviously didnt understand my point. Instead you stated that kryptonite doesnt effect him .

Radiation would effect Goku but over a much longer time Kryptonite on Supes works quite quickly.



> Is that check and mate?



For me i guess


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 8, 2006)

_When hes around that rock, depending on the writer, bad shit happens to him._

_He loses his powers, or gets really sick to the brink of death- yeilding him harmless (depending)._

Actually, not anymore. Kryptonite just basically hurts him and somewhat weakens him; he's still functional with his powers and all for the while. The liquid green K is an excellent example; in the old days, something like that would have killed him.

_Exposure over a long time (hours) could potencially kill him- as it can super powered kryptonians._

I don't see any disagreement here.

_Radiation would effect Goku but over a much longer time Kryptonite on Supes works quite quickly._

Well, Kryptonite is Kryptonite.

But Saiyans are still susceptible to disease. Radiation. . . well, from what I seen, I can somewhat agree in that affecting them.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Exposure over a long time (hours) could potencially kill him- as it can super powered kryptonians._
> 
> I don't see any disagreement here.




*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Keollyn said:
			
		

> And I guess you don't know much about Superman, because I sure don't rememeber the rock harming him to begin with...






Well apparently not only will it not kill him, it has never harmed him.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

It's like the comprehension level of DBZ fans are getting lower and lower. You saying that he dies from a rock is just as inaccurate as someone saying one dies from the syringe used in a lethal injection. He dies from the radiation, not the rock. Drill this in your brain, okay.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 8, 2006)

Keollyn said:
			
		

> It's like the comprehension level of DBZ fans are getting lower and lower. You saying that he dies from a rock is just as inaccurate as someone saying one dies from the syringe used in a lethal injection. He dies from the radiation, not the rock. Drill this in your brain, okay.



The rock = radioactive, or a radioactive rock, thats a given. That radioactive rock has some pretty serious effects on him. 
I never said hed die from a rock  
The only time i said itd kill him is if he had prolonged encounter with kryptonite. That radioactive rock is kryptonite.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 8, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Try a green rock that allows a toddler on a tricycle to kill you.
> 
> BTW black star dragonballs can kill



Found on page 56. I guess that constitute as never saying it, huh?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Don't worry about the damn Kryptonite you worry about the Beating that Goku is putting on Superman.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

LOL, as if.

You still haven't refuted any of my points.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

All of your points are delt with! Check them out.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

I have, and you just said stuff like "No you're wrong!" or "LOL that would never happen" or "HA! You forgot [something completely irrelevant to the point you were supposed to be addressing]."

If you call that 'dealing with them' then I guess you have.

However you haven't actually made any arguments or refuted anything.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

I have countered your so called Superman Durability feats, I prooved he did not take on a galaxy destroying attack which was bull. This Also prooved you did not know what the hell you are talking about! I disclaimed your proofs about him flying faster than light which was also Bull crap, Superman has never and I mean never took on a planet destroying attack! (If So I would like to see it) Also this crap about him lifting 40 billion tons is bogus as well, I would like to see this because he has never lifted this much in his comics.
I addresed your little scans and they weren't much so be gone with your nonsense.

He can not fight with Goku Superman is too slow in reflexes and combat speed. Goku is the better fighter supes is a much weaker fighter. Goku > Superman!


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomen - LOL said:
			
		

> Chatting garbage again, Supes tried to fly to the Sun in the Doomsday battle but yet Doom ran after Superman and jumped on his slow ass. Also Doomsday had to fight the entire Justice League then he owned Superman's Ass. Goku beat Buu so cut the crap.



I read Death of Superman and I can assure you that no such thing happened.

You've been caught in another lie.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> I have countered you so called Superman Durability feats, I prooved he did not take on a galaxy destroying attack which was bull.



It was a half - galaxy destroying attack, so you're right. 




> This Also prooved you did not know what the hell you are talking about! I disclaimed your proofs about him flying faster than light which was also Bull crap



Lex 2000 special. Read it.



> , Superman has never and I mean never took on a planet destroying attack! (If So I would like to see it)



Omega Effect, Mageddon Warhead, being inside of exploding planets and moons, etc.



> Also this crap about him lifting 40 billion tons is bogus as well, I would like to see this because he has never lifted this much in his comics.



He's moved the moon on multiple occasions, which weighs orders of magnitude more than that.



> He can not fight with Goku Superman is too slow in reflexes and combat speed. Goku is the better fighter supes is a much weaker fighter. Goku > Superman!



More bullshit with no evidence to back it up.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I read Death of Superman and I can assure you that no such thing happened.
> 
> You've been caught in another lie.



Are you some kind of Dumb ass this was with the Justice league! Damn maybe you need to realize Doom appeared more ethan once. Damn you are an idiot. Go read Mike.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

You were constantly referring to the time Doomsday killed Superman, so obviously I thought that's what you meant.

And Doomsday is as fast or faster than the Flash.


----------



## Aruarian (Jul 8, 2006)




----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It was a half - galaxy destroying attack, so you're right.
> 
> *No it was not. The damn warhead did not explode all he did was absorb the sunlight out of the damn warhead. Why are you chatting garbage! He absorbed the energy before it exploded that is not taking a galaxy destroying attack. Superman has done no such thing fool.*
> 
> ...



Be gone with your nonsense!


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

> And Doomsday is as fast or faster than the Flash.



Bwhahaahaaaa..

Be gone with your nonsense.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

> No it was not. The damn warhead did not explode all he did was absorb the sunlight out of the damn warhead. Why are you chatting garbage! He absorbed the energy before it exploded that is not taking a galaxy destroying attack. Superman has done no such thing fool.



He absorbed all the energy in the warhead, which was enough to destroy half a galaxy.

Are you saying that if an attack that is said to be however powerful doesn't actually do that much damage, even if it is blocked, absorbed, redirected, etc. so it never has the chance, then it couldn't do that much damage in the first place?

In that case Vegeta couldn't blow up the Earth, Cell couldn't blow up the Solar System, and Buu couldn't blow up anymore than 1 planet at a time.

Of course you're going to whine and say that that is completely different, without giving any explanation of why or how it is different, and keep up your bullshit.



> I did, you need to read it fool.



I did. Saturn to Earth in 4 minutes. That's way faster than the speed of light.



> Shut up, he absorbed the energy before it exploded!



See above.



> Your a fool. He only moved War World, Wonderwoman and the other's helping him does not count!



He moved the moon on his own at least once Post - Crisis, and that was in his physically weaker Electric form. And why shouldn't other people helping him count? It just reduces the weight he has to carry by 2/3, which is still way more than 40 billion tons.



> Be gone with your nonsense!



The hypocrisy is sickening.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Bwhahaahaaaa..
> 
> Be gone with your nonsense.



It was stated directly in the comic, and in a later comic, he beat the Flash.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> He absorbed all the energy in the warhead, which was enough to destroy half a galaxy.
> 
> *Yes and that is not impressive because it was only going to destroy half of the galaxy on detonation! Superman's body is a living battery him absorbing solar energy is not impressive because it helps him. Superman did not take on half a galaxy destroying attack he only absorbed the Solar energy in the Warhead which is not impressive.*
> 
> ...



Matter of fact Superman disarmed the damn warhead by absorbing the energy out of it which means that it did not explode, and if it did *Superman would have died!*

Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed 


Be gone with your non sense!


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Sorry for double post.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

> Yes and that is not impressive because it was only going to destroy half of the galaxy on detonation! Superman's body is a living battery him absorbing solar energy is not impressive because it helps him. Superman did not take on half a galaxy destroying attack he only absorbed the Solar energy in the Warhead which is not impressive.



First of all, it was anti - solar energy, not solar energy.

Second of all, by absorbing all of it, he survived all the energy required to destroy half a galaxy. He survived even more than he would have had to if it had detonated, because that would just spread the energy in all directions, but instead he took it all directly. That's more impressive.



> It was stated that when the warhead DETONATES! it had the power to destroy half a galaxy. It basically was a bomb. Once again energy that only helps Superman not hurt him. That shows no durability on his part.



Absorbing all the energy required to destroy half a galaxy isn't proof of durability? Do you live in Bizarro World or something?



> Wrong Fool those attacks were unleashed not contained!



If they were contained they would have done more damage, because all of their energy would have been concentrated in one small area.



> Read my last post!



I did, and it just proves my predictive abilities work correctly.



> Wrong,That scan stated nothing like the garbage you are chatting!



Proof? (And don't just post one page and leave out the other important parts).



> More garbage! Superman never lifted 40 billion tons, second assitance never counts! Noted earlier by Konflikti!



He benched that much on an alien machine, and you're ignoring how he moved the moon once by himself and moved it many times with help (which only reduces the load by a fraction, still way more than 40 billion tons).




> Matter of fact Superman disarmed the damn warhead by absorbing the energy out of it which means that it did not explode, and if it did Superman would have died!
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



Those scans just prove what I've been saying the whole time.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> First of all, it was anti - solar energy, not solar energy.
> 
> *Does not matter Superman Hypermetabolize energy, yet he still did not take half a galaxy destroying attack.*
> 
> ...



No you are wrong!


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

> Does not matter Superman Hypermetabolize energy, yet he still did not take half a galaxy destroying attack.



Repeating things over and over again doesn't magically make them true.



> Wrong Fool he disarmed the damn bomb, when it detonates it would have destroyed half a galaxy. Once again he absorbs the energy whichi s not impressive. If it exploded he would have died very evident in the scans



Let's go over this slowly, shall we?

- The bomb had the energy to destroy half a galaxy.

- Superman absorbed all of that energy.

- Therefore, Superman survived all of the energy required to destroy half of a galaxy.



> No he absorbed the energy, Superman Hypermetabolizes energy which is still not impressive. Superman disarmed the damn bomb nothing more.



By absorbing all that energy into himself, which means he survived the energy required to destroy half a galaxy. This is not a difficult concept. Why are you having so much trouble with it?



> Bull crap!



Oh, that's a convincing argument....



> Wrong fool you are wrong read the damn scans.



You're the one who needs to read them if you keep denying the obvious like this.



> Look at the scan is more than enough proof!



I don't see anything in there about how Superman would have died if the bomb went off. Not to mention it contradicts logic, since he absorbed all of it and didn't die.



> Nope, chatting garbage.



Do you have RAS or something?



> No you are wrong!



I don't know why I'm even responding to you anymore.

Perhaps I should quote my post above:



> I have, and you just said stuff like "No you're wrong!" or "LOL that would never happen" or "HA! You forgot [something completely irrelevant to the point you were supposed to be addressing]."



Honestly, you are as predictible as a clock.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 8, 2006)

Let's clear a few things because you know nothing about Superman's abilities!
Superman's Body is a battery..

I've always thought it was funny when superman fans use "he survived a super nova" as a feat.

Wow he survived an explosion of SOLAR energy, I'm sooooo impressed..

 Superman - able to absorb anti-sunlight just as well as sunlight - was able to absorb all the anti-sun's energy and shut the warhead down permanently.

By no means did he take a galaxy exploding attack all of that energy he absorbed helps Superman you freakin Foool! Supes even stated that he can absorb anti-Sunlight if you read the damn scans.

Supes by no means took it on because it never detonated, if it did he would have died.


----------



## Galt (Jul 8, 2006)

Given that Superman's powers come from yellow sunlight and this is anti-sunlight, this feat is comparable to watching you eat a burger made of antimatter.  Furthermore, I haven't seen the supernova you speak of myself, but supernovae generally shouldn't occur with anything but red giant or white dwarf stars, so it's not like the supernova should be feeding him energy or anything, since it's only yellow sunlight that gives him his abilities.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 8, 2006)

Anti-sunlight, by pure definition, should drain him of his yellow solar reserves.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 8, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Let's clear a few things because you know nothing about Superman's abilities!
> Superman's Body is a battery..
> 
> I've always thought it was funny when superman fans use "he survived a super nova" as a feat.
> ...



1. Absorbing all that energy (destructive energy) into his body is the same as taking the explosion head - on, except more intensive, since none of it is wasted and blasted anywhere else.

2. It was never stated that he would have died if it had exploded.


----------



## Galt (Jul 8, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Anti-sunlight, by pure definition, should drain him of his yellow solar reserves.



Yeah, this point at least should honestly not be disputed at all.  The only issue is whether or not the active energy in the thing that he absorbed was literally the energy to destroy half the galaxy, or the energy of something rather like an initial detonation to set off the bomb's materials into a far more powerful explosive reaction, something like whether he simply absorbed the burning flame on the fuse of a rocket, or if he literally absorbed all the power that would have come out of the potential explosion.  Who knows...it's still no mean feat either way.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 9, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> More garbage! Superman never lifted 40 billion tons, second assitance never counts! Noted earlier by Konflikti!



What the hell? What are you talking about?


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> 1. Absorbing all that energy (destructive energy) into his body is the same as taking the explosion head - on, except more intensive, since none of it is wasted and blasted anywhere else.
> 
> 2. It was never stated that he would have died if it had exploded.



I am surrounded by fools. 

Superman said that he can absorb *Sunlight and anti-sunlight *Period! So the blast does not effect him! 

Superman disarmed the damn bomb, Megadon did not detonate therefore he did not take half a galaxy destroying attack. In order for him to do that the warhead was suppose to detonate but it did not.

Supes would have died if that bomb went off (Reactions from other Justice league members)


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

They were all afraid he couldn't handle it, but he did.

And if all that destructive energy is going into his body, he absorbs it, that's a greater durability feat that just standing next to the bomb when it explodes, because most of the explosion would go in different directions and only a part of it would hit him.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> They were all afraid he couldn't handle it, but he did.
> 
> And if all that destructive energy is going into his body, he absorbs it, that's a greater durability feat that just standing next to the bomb when it explodes, because most of the explosion would go in different directions and only a part of it would hit him.



You really know nothing about Superman do you? You did not even read the damn comic. Mike you need help, Superman's body is like a battery he can hypermetabolize Solar Energy! Which means he can absorb Sunlight and Anti-Sunlight! The energy he absorbed just disarmed the bomb that is not a durability feat when the Solar Energy is involved. 

Supes greatest Durabilty feat was taking on nukes that is all.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> What the hell? What are you talking about?



Don't worry about it, you wouldn't know if I told you!


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

Sure, if you ignore every other durability feat, like this one.

How about an analogy?

Plants also feed off of sunlight, using photosynthesis.

However, does that mean if a plant not only absorbed the opposite of sunlight (which would hurt it instead of help it) but enough of it to destroy half a galaxy, you would think that was nothing special and it was just a normal plant, and any plant could do that?

The fact that the Mageddon energy was opposite to sunlight merely meant that Superman had the capability to absorb it, not that it would help him or make him stronger. In fact it would actually hurt him.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Sure, if you ignore every other durability feat, like this one.
> 
> How about an analogy?
> 
> ...




How about No! You and your weak analogies and they never are the same.

Superman was able to absorb anti-sunlight just as well as sunlight *stated himself! *Superman absorb all the anti-sun's energy and shut the warhead down permanently.

That is not a durability feat.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

For some reason, just because he can absorb it, you automatically think it was beneficial, not harmful, even though this was never stated, and it doesn't make sense. Why would the opposite of what powers him be helpful to him? It wouldn't. If anything, it would be even worse than red sunlight.

The obvious explanation is that since it was similar, but opposite, to solar energy, he could absorb it, but it hurt him to do so. He absorbed enough harmful energy to destroy half a galaxy. That is a durability feat if I have ever seen one.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> For some reason, just because he can absorb it, you automatically think it was beneficial, not harmful, even though this was never stated, and it doesn't make sense. Why would the opposite of what powers him be helpful to him? It wouldn't. If anything, it would be even worse than red sunlight.
> 
> The obvious explanation is that since it was similar, but opposite, to solar energy, he could absorb it, but it hurt him to do so. He absorbed enough harmful energy to destroy half a galaxy. That is a durability feat if I have ever seen one.



You truly are hopeless, Solar Energy either negative or positive is no problem for Superman! He is a battery who can do that, Their was no blast if there was he would have died simple. Superman said himself he can absorb Sunlight and Anti-Sunlight.

That is like Superman surviving a Supernova, None of these are a durability feat.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 9, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Don't worry about it, you wouldn't know if I told you!


You better fucking explain putting words in my mouth or I'll make it my personal mission to take you down no matter what.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You truly are hopeless, Solar Energy either negative or positive is no problem for Superman! He is a battery who can do that, Their was no blast if there was he would have died simple. Superman said himself he can absorb Sunlight and Anti-Sunlight.
> 
> That is like Superman surviving a Supernova, None of these are a durability feat.



Really, then, can you name any other time when he has absorbed negative solar energy and actually gained power from it?

It's obvious that while he can absorb both, positive is beneficial to him, while negative is harmful to him. He, in effect, took the full brunt of a half galaxy - destroying blast and survived mostly unharmed. Stop trying to distort the issue.

And how is surviving a supernova not a durability feat? Superman is powered by yellow solar radiation. Ignoring the fact, for a moment, that yellow stars (main - sequence stars) don't naturally go supernova (they aren't massive enough), there's also the heat, plasma, and kinetic energy of the supernova shockwave itself to deal with, none of which are beneficial to Superman and in fact are things that would be detrimental to him.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

To use Phenomen - LOL's logic against him: Goku can absorb ki (as shown with the Genki Dama), therefore surviving enemy ki blasts is not a durability feat for him.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Really, then, can you name any other time when he has absorbed negative solar energy and actually gained power from it?
> 
> *No, The fact that he can absorb it means that he did not take on the impact and destruction of the galaxy blast!*
> 
> ...



About Supernova's you answered your own Damn question! Mike stop with the nitpicking. You really need to read more about the two characters before you get into debates it is hell of obvious that you lack knowledge of these two characters.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

> To use Phenomen - LOL's logic against him: Goku can absorb ki (as shown with the Genki Dama), therefore surviving enemy ki blasts is not a durability feat for him.



Once again not the same damn thing! Your analogy and comparison skills are horrible just stop it!


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## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

> No, The fact that he can absorb it means that he did not take on the impact and destruction of the galaxy blast!



The bomb had the power to destroy half the galaxy.

He absorbed all of that power, and it was opposite of the power that fuels him.

So therefore he took the full power of the blast that would have destroyed half the galaxy.

What part of this is confusing you?



> He did not take half a galaxy blast, The warhead did not DETONATE! it was suppose to detonate for it to be half a galaxy destroying, all Superman did was shut it down by absorbing the solar energy nothing more!



It doesn't matter that it didn't detonate! The reason it didn't was because all of the energy that would have powered the explosion was absorbed by Superman. Therefore he absorbed it and survived, taking enough harmful energy to destroy half a galaxy. It would have been less impressive if it had detonated and he survived, since only a small part of the blast would hit him, and the rest would go off in every other direction.



> About Supernova's you answered your own Damn question! Mike stop with the nitpicking. You really need to read more about the two characters before you get into debates it is hell of obvious that you lack knowledge of these two characters.



I answered my own question?

So you admit that the supernovas he's survived are the results of different types of stars, which don't fuel him at all, and can be counted as pure durability feats?

And stop trying to say I know nothing, I know a lot more than you with all of the mistakes you're making and crap you're inventing.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Once again not the same damn thing! Your analogy and comparison skills are horrible just stop it!



You always say this, yet you fail to explain why it is different, and why the analogy is inapplicable.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 9, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The bomb had the power to destroy half the galaxy.
> 
> He absorbed all of that power, and it was opposite of the power that fuels him.
> 
> ...



Damn, your ignorance is Endless! Superman absorbing any kind of Solar Energy does not phase him! Show me where in the scan that it harms Superman?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 9, 2006)

Check the last panel of the second page.

And the reason it didn't harm him too much was because he is just that tough and survived it.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 10, 2006)

I guess you missed the part at the very beggining when Superman said that he can absorb Sunight as well as Anti-Sunlight! which allowed Superman to disarmed the bomb. This is not a durability feat, Superman absorbing Solar energy or taking a blast of Solar Energy is never impressive.

A mere nuke hurt Superman, and he barely survived a blast equal to a million nukes. Superman can not Survive half a galxay explosion.

Goku's Punches alone will break Superman apart.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 10, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> You better fucking explain putting words in my mouth or I'll make it my personal mission to take you down no matter what.



Remeber the debate over piccolo radditz and Goku! You said that Goku was weak because he need help. That is what I am talking about.


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## konflikti (Jul 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Remeber the debate over piccolo radditz and Goku! You said that Goku was weak because he need help. That is what I am talking about.


How does that translate to physical strenght? Or disproving a feat?

The comment was made because you consider Goku the end all fighter in everywhere, while he wasn't the greatest even in his own universe.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 10, 2006)

Don't worry about it Konflikti you don't know much about the series so do not worry.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Don't worry about it Konflikti you don't know much about the series so do not worry.



Dude thats a pretty arrogant stance to make "you don't agree with me, so you must not know much about anything".

That just makes you look like an idiot.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 10, 2006)

Tsukiyomi, I understand that, you have just posted in this thread. If you read the thread you will know what I am talking about. If my statements seem offensive then I am *SORRY!* some times i get to aggressive. 



> How does that translate to physical strenght? Or disproving a feat?
> 
> *You used this as an example of why Goku was so weak, you claimed he needed help.*
> 
> The comment was made because you consider Goku the end all fighter in everywhere, while he wasn't the greatest even in his own universe.



No I did not, I stated that Goku had his oppurtunities to put people away but he did not want to because Goku did not want the world to always depend on him. The only characters that truly was more powerful than Goku was Cell and kid Buu . Yet that subject is in debate because Goku focused more on Gohan's training than his own.


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## konflikti (Jul 10, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> You used this as an example of why Goku was so weak, you claimed he needed help.



Well, he did, didn't he?

Though that wasn't the point at the time I made that post. It was regarding Superman losing to one opponent, which by your definition meant that he is somehow weaker than Goku. In this example, I showed that Goku lost to Raditz, even if he teamed up with Piccolo against him. This in my opinion makes a pretty good analogue with the death of Supes, thus proving that dying in battle doesn't make you any weaker.

You just managed to rip it so out of context that it somehow seemed to benefit you.


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## DarkTechnomancer (Jul 10, 2006)

This topic...is so stupid. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Honestly Goku straps kryptonite to his knuckles and beats Superman to death with it, then Goku himself dies because Superman is just cook like that, can we all stop this nonsense now?


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## Shiron (Jul 10, 2006)

DarkTechnomancer said:
			
		

> This topic...is so stupid. It's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Honestly Goku straps kryptonite to his knuckles and beats Superman to death with it, then Goku himself dies because Superman is just cook like that, can we all stop this nonsense now?


 Too bad Goku doesn't know about Kryptonite or where to get it, and it doesn't have as much as an effect on Superman as people think it does (it's not instant death for him and it doesn't cause him to instantly loose his powers; these things happen very slowly in the more recent Superman comics).

And if you really think that Goku is stronger than Superman, then perhaps you'd want to read the rest of the thread or this first:


However, I will agree that some of the posts in this thread aren't the most thought out ones in the world.


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## DarkTechnomancer (Jul 10, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> Too bad Goku doesn't know about Kryptonite or where to get it, and it doesn't effect Superman as much as people think it does.
> 
> And if you really think that Goku is stronger than Superman, then perhaps you'd want to read the rest of the thread or this first:



Surely you didn't take that seriously? And originally kryptonite made Superman about the equivalent to a "regular human", not that I give a damn. I honestly don't like either character, nor this thread. Honestly they are both stupidly overpowered, but I think (don't quote me on this) Goku has died more times though. Really I'm just sick of seeing this post always being here, never going anywhere. You people have been arguing about the same crap for a thousand posts, this is ridiculous!

You want my real opinion on the matter? Kolibri comes in and kills them both, along with anybody who has ever posted seriously past the 500 posts mark. That's right...Kolibri.


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## Shiron (Jul 10, 2006)

DarkTechnomancer said:
			
		

> Surely you didn't take that seriously? And originally kryptonite made Superman about the equivalent to a "regular human", not that I give a damn. I honestly don't like either character, nor this thread. Honestly they are both stupidly overpowered, but I think (don't quote me on this) Goku has died more times though. Really I'm just sick of seeing this post always being here, never going anywhere. You people have been arguing about the same crap for a thousand posts, this is ridiculous!
> 
> You want my real opinion on the matter? Kolibri comes in and kills them both, along with anybody who has ever posted seriously past the 500 posts mark. That's right...Kolibri.


I did take it seriously... It's just hard to tell when people are being serious or not, thanks to people like Phenomenol and members of the forum that make incredibly stupid posts, but yet they are actually serious about them. Unless people put a [/sarcasm] thing is their post or really over-emphasize it, because of me seeing the posts of certain members of this forum time and time again, it's really hard to tell when people are being serious or not.

And it is true that this thread is basically just going into circles, which is annoying. Personally, I'd prefer it if this thread were locked or something, because it seems to have gone as far as it's going to go and certain people are just causing it to go in circles. But as long as their isn't too much flaming going around and both sides are willing to continue, this thread will stay open, regardless.

And I personally don't really care who wins. Basically, the only thing that really annoys me is when a newb comes in and goes "Lol! Superman is teh suck! Goku can totally beat him! Superman is no threat at all to Goku! There should be no DBZ-vs-non DBZ threads because DBZ is the strongest anime EVAH! lol!" and continues to make posts like that in the thread. Otherwise, I don't really care when threads get this long (because, by this point, I know it would be pointless to continue and try to convince the other person of anything) and I tend to disappear, save for the occasional post or two (like this one).


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## DarkTechnomancer (Jul 10, 2006)

Meijin no Kori said:
			
		

> I did take it seriously... It's just hard to tell when people are being serious or not, thanks to people like Phenomenol and members of the forum that make incredibly stupid posts, but yet they are actually serious about them. Unless people put a [/sarcasm] thing is their post or really over-emphasize it, because of me seeing the posts of certain members of this forum time and time again, it's really hard to tell when people are being serious or not.
> 
> And it is true that this thread is basically just going into circles, which is annoying. Personally, I'd prefer it if this thread were locked or something, because it seems to have gone as far as it's going to go and certain people are just causing it to go in circles. But as long as their isn't too much flaming going around and both sides are willing to continue, this thread will stay open, regardless.
> 
> And I personally don't really care who wins. Basically, the only thing that really annoys me is when a newb comes in and goes "Lol! Superman is teh suck! Goku can totally beat him! Superman is no threat at all to Goku! There should be no DBZ-vs-non DBZ threads because DBZ is the strongest anime EVAH! lol!" and continues to make posts like that in the thread. Otherwise, I don't really care when threads get this long (because, by this point, I know it would be pointless to continue and try to convince the other person of anything) and I tend to disappear, save for the occasional post or two (like this one).



I see, well then I'll just go back to hating stupid people and go watch some Naruto filler...

Oh, and I'm sure Kolibri could kick both their asses (Kolibri by the way, is a humming bird)


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 10, 2006)

Debating is a hobby of mine, and so is reading comics and books and watching telivision.

This topic won't really be decided. This debate has been going on for years. As if one topic will actually close down years of debate and settle everything once and for all.

To do that, we'd need _every_ available Superman and Goku debater in one forum.


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## Final Ultima (Jul 10, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Debating is a hobby of mine, and so is reading comics and books and watching telivision.
> 
> This topic won't really be decided. This debate has been going on for years. As if one topic will actually close down years of debate and settle everything once and for all.
> 
> To do that, we'd need _every_ available Superman and Goku debater in one forum.


I've seen a great deal of those old debates, being a long-time Dragon Ball debater and all, but they've all more or less come to the same conclusion...Superman winning. Admitedly, in most of those threads, Pre-Crisis Superman is allowed...and in some cases, all of his alternate forms in order to match up with Goku's amount of forms.

I'm tired of this debate though.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 10, 2006)

Your tactic is just taking all of Superman's low - end showings and matching them against Goku's high - end showings.

Of course we have things like Goku getting hurt when Freiza threw rocks at him, Goku having trouble lifting large boulders, Goku having trouble lifting 40 tons, Perfect Cell being threatened by a normal nuke, and if we count GT, Goku having trouble lifting a building, and Trunks needing to go SSJ1 just to lift a big crate.

Then, on the other hand, we have things like Superman and Darkseid destroying a planet by fighting on it, Superman surviving unharmed inside exploding moons, Superman moving the moon (by himself at least once), Superman helping to move the earth, Superman going from Saturn to Earth in 4 minutes, the whole Mageddon warhead incident (despite your attempts to misrepresent it), Superman getting punched from the earth to the moon, or straight through the earth, and being unharmed, etc.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 10, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Your tactic is just taking all of Superman's low - end showings and matching them against Goku's high - end showings.
> 
> *If you knew anything about Superman you would know that I am using his best feats. Took a blast equivilent to a million nuclear bombs, Pushed War World with the engines in reverse I also used other feats to proove his awesomeness. I like Superman I have most of his comics he is just not stronger than Goku.*
> 
> ...



Who is telling you these lies. Superman and Darkseid never destroyed a planet while fighting on it. Superman never pushed the moon by himself, Superman never reached earth from Saturn in 4 minutes, and the Megadon Warhead is not a durabuility feat. You have not prooved these things and yet you say them.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 11, 2006)

> If you knew anything about Superman you would know that I am using his best feats. Took a blast equivilent to a million nuclear bombs, Pushed War World with the engines in reverse I also used other feats to proove his awesomeness. I like Superman I have most of his comics he is just not stronger than Goku.



No, you're using his low - end feats and ignoring or denying the high - end ones.


> None of these happened, you are chatting garbage.



Honestly, you could at least try an actual argument instead of blatant denial of reality.



> Who is telling you these lies. Superman and Darkseid never destroyed a planet while fighting on it. Superman never pushed the moon by himself, Superman never reached earth from Saturn in 4 minutes, and the Megadon Warhead is not a durabuility feat. You have not prooved these things and yet you say them.



People have posted scans of all of these things, you just keep ignoring them.

Superman moved the moon by himself in JLA#7, Took turns with Green Lantern moving it against 'geometrically increasing forces' in JLA: Century War (Superman took the last and most difficult turn).

He moved from Saturn to Earth in 4 minutes in the Lex 2000 special, and everyone else and I already proved you wrong about the Mageddon Warhead.


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## Countach (Jul 11, 2006)

wow this thread is still going


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## Endless Mike (Jul 11, 2006)

Only because Phenomen - LOL is denying reality.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 11, 2006)

And I'm watching DBZ episodes & fights for better clarification.

And re-reading the Infinity Gauntlet to prove one poster that the Infinity Gauntlet is NOT _multiversal_.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 11, 2006)

Yeah, You keep watching those episodes. DAMN I HATE THE DUB.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 11, 2006)

Dub or not, fights are fights.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 11, 2006)

Nope. The watered down American version has weak ass sound effects so you won't experience the impact of their blows! That is why DBZ hits so hard.


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## Perfect Moron (Jul 11, 2006)

Word. I once broke three ribs watching Japanese DBZ. Damn, I'm weak ass.


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## Aruarian (Jul 11, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Nope. The watered down American version has weak ass sound effects so you won't experience the impact of their blows! That is why DBZ hits so hard.


I don't hear _anything_ when reading the manga, guess their punches are pretty much non-existant, huh?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 12, 2006)

_Nope. The watered down American version has weak ass sound effects so you won't experience the impact of their blows! That is why DBZ hits so hard._

Uh huh. . . care to elaborate?


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## DarkTechnomancer (Jul 12, 2006)

This topic needs to die. I was all for this debate, back when it wasn't coughing up mummy dust. Please people, just stop, it's been done. If you like Superman then he wins, if you like Goku he wins. If you hate them both (or like them equally) then I'm afraid the loser is this topic. As far as I've seen most of the long drawn out "rot your eyes out" evidence supports Superman. On the other end of the scale DBZ supporters tend to just say Goku>Superman and leave it at that. This isn't to say that both sides have had their fair share of both, but that's the way it tends to go. If you haven't decided then go read the countless other debates in other places, otherwise stop arguing it! There is nothing that you can say that hasn't already been said, So please, for the sake of all that is sane...just stop.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 12, 2006)

If you don't like it, then just ignore the thread and don't post on it.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 12, 2006)

_This topic needs to die. I was all for this debate, back when it wasn't coughing up mummy dust. Please people, just stop, it's been done. If you like Superman then he wins, if you like Goku he wins. If you hate them both (or like them equally) then I'm afraid the loser is this topic. As far as I've seen most of the long drawn out "rot your eyes out" evidence supports Superman. On the other end of the scale DBZ supporters tend to just say Goku>Superman and leave it at that. This isn't to say that both sides have had their fair share of both, but that's the way it tends to go. If you haven't decided then go read the countless other debates in other places, otherwise stop arguing it! There is nothing that you can say that hasn't already been said, So please, for the sake of all that is sane...just stop._

Reminds me of the old war back on the GameFAQS boards, and the resulting decisions.


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