# Current Sakura vs Base Jiraiya



## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 8, 2014)

Knowledge: Jiraiya knows the basics like she was trained by Tsunade. Sakura has no knowledge.
Mindset: IC
Location: Konoha
Distance: 30 m

Scenario 1: Sage Mode is restricted.

Scenario 2: Sage Mode is not restricted but Sakura but Sakura starts out with 10% of Katsuyu

Who takes this.


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## xZurp (Aug 8, 2014)

I normally would say "Lol, Doton: Yomi Numa GG no re" but it's IC not Bloodlusted.

Jiraiya would probably fire off some jutsu or try some Taijutsu, which would force Sakura to immediately bring out Byakugo. Jiraiya would then probably realize what the move is, and use Yomi Numa, which Sakura has no way to get out off. But this is kinda the ideal situation, it may end up differently. But I can't say see Sakura tagging Jiraiya in any way but using her AoE punches, to try to get Jiraiya off his feet. I'd say Jiraiya takes it more likely than not, but it's kinda hard. If not else than from Sakura constantly healing herself.

Which Jiraiya starting out in Sage Mode, it just makes avoiding Katsuya & Sakura even easier. Until he forces the Slug God away and you end up back in Scenario 1. Again, I'd say Jiraiya wins more often than not.

But I can't be certain because dat medical regen is pruty gud. 

Sakura's Byakugo seal has literally bijuu levels of chakra built up. From just ~2-3 years of focusing chakra. From someone who has a sub-fodder level of chakra to begin with. Do I sound butthurt? Good, I am.


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 8, 2014)

Frog Summons for J Man will settle this thing. Sakura cries after getting whipped by J Man,


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## StickaStick (Aug 8, 2014)

Sakura takes Scenario 1 because of high-level Katsuyu summoning. Losses Scenario two because of lack of knowledge of frog songs.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 8, 2014)

Jiraiya stomps in both scenarios cuz sakura isn't of the combat competency level to even process jiraiyas tactical manouvres, let alone threaten him w/ an ''offense'' of her own.

its any 2 jutsu in combination, GG more or less.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2014)

Sakura wins the first scenario hands down. Base-Jiriaya does not have any moves that can put down Byakugo-Sakura. Jiriaya's summons would get decimated by Sakura's striking force, which would leave Jiriaya alone against Sakura and the massive amount of Katsuya that Sakura can conjure. Base-Jiriaya having to avoid Katsuya's acid, katsuya latching onto him for reverse-shosen, and Sakura's death punches (or FCD), is way to much and he'll quickly be overwhelmed.

In the second scenario Sakura also likely wins. Really the only move Jiriaya has to could get past Byakugo-Regen is Frog-Song, and that necessitates him surviving long enough to prep SM & Frog Song. It's highly unlikely he can hold out that long against Sakura.


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## trance (Aug 9, 2014)

Meh. Sakura wins scenario one more times than not. Well, if she can counter Yomi Numa before she sinks and is immobilized that is. 

As for scenario two, it depends if he starts in Sage Mode or not. If he does, he wins easily. If not, then shit.


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## Hazuki (Aug 9, 2014)

base jiraiya forced itachi and kisame to retreat just with his gamakishi shibari 

seriously people really understimate him even in his base

jiraiya is famous for his base form , his sennin mod was hidden , no one knew about it 

jiraiya win easely even in his base form because of his various jutsu , his versality , his experience ..


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 9, 2014)

Base jiraiya beat konan easily, and for a long time fought against orochimaru with tsunade as well. You actually think sage mode is his only strength when that was just introduced in his final battle?


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## Invictus-Kun (Aug 9, 2014)

sage mode is not needed to deafeat Sakura, She only heals herself and brute strength....Jiraiya had summoning... Sakura will fall in both scenarios


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2014)

Jiraiya stomps both scenarios low dif.

He has mid long range jutsus so he can constantly keep his distance. He has better speed, and is alot more versatile. 
It is too damn easy to deal with a taijutsu fighter unless they are faster than you are. Sakura may hit like a truck, but she also moves like a truck. Easy to predict and counter.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2014)

Invictus-Kun said:


> sage mode is not needed to deafeat Sakura, She only heals herself and brute strength....Jiraiya had summoning... Sakura will fall in both scenarios


Sakura also has summoning, and she can summon more due to superior chakra supplies with Byakugo-Seal.


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## JuicyG (Aug 9, 2014)

Sakura is too limited to be able to beat Jirayia. She is a one-sided fighter, if she is unable to close the distance to start throwing hands she's useless...

Jirayia has wide range AOE attacks to keep Sakura at a distance and win with relative ease...SM just makes this a stomp


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Sakura wins the first scenario hands down. Base-Jiriaya does not have any moves that can put down Byakugo-Sakura. Jiriaya's summons would get decimated by Sakura's striking force, which would leave Jiriaya alone against Sakura and the massive amount of Katsuya that Sakura can conjure. Base-Jiriaya having to avoid Katsuya's acid, katsuya latching onto him for reverse-shosen, and Sakura's death punches (or FCD), is way to much and he'll quickly be overwhelmed.


Are you serious?

Yomi Numa alone could potentially one-shot Sakura. Sakura doesn't have any Raiton, and her only solution to that is summoning Katsuyu, but theres a 50% chance Jiraiya would sink her before she even gets a chance to do that. I mean, Jiraiya's 30% Yomi Numa when he was drugged was huge, imagine a 100% one.

Jiraiya's Gamabunta oil and his fire combo could fry her and kill her from having her lungs incinerated.

Sakura can one-shot summons, but Jiraiya's summons can jump, and Sakura isn't fast at all.

Sakura's only choice would be to catch him with a surprise punch, but saying Jiraiya couldn't win before that happens, or doesn't have ways to defeat Sakura is ridiculous.

Base Jiraiya was considered a competent Kage-level fighter, someone who was offered the Hokage seat, someone who was famous around the world, and has mountains of experience and tactics. Someone who had survived 50 years in this shinobi world, and he didn't seem to use Sage Mode all that often. He has defeated countless of shinobi.

Sakura doesn't have his experience, his skill, his tactics, his jutsus. Heck, Sakura was considered a chuunin level ninja when she already had a lot of strength in her punches and could summon Katsuyu and heal. Theres no way in hell this powerup makes her mid-Kage tier like Jiraiya is. And she is certainly not a more efficient fighter than he is.

All she has that could do anything to him is her punches, but she is slow. If she had that, combined with speed, then she'd be something, but she doesn't have speed. All she has is brute power.

Base Jiraiya owned Konan, and would have killed Kisame in seconds if Itachi wasn't there. He could also toy with someone like Gaara. Sakura could win with a surprise punch, but chances of that are very very slim.

When did Kisame or Konan touch Jiraiya?

Hell, Pain couldn't touch Jiraiya until he ambushed Jiraiya.

Jiraiya isn't someone who lets his opponents touch him like Kakashi does for example.

And Sakura, even with Naruto's help, who was stronger than she was, couldn't even touch a non-serious Kakashi. Kakashi could have killed both of them in an instant. And yet, Sakura with increased strength could beat Jiraiya?

Sakura would have to reveal her strength againts Jiraiya's summons, Frog stomach, etc. And even if she doesn't, Jiraiya is a cautious fighter. He isn't gonna let Sakura get near him, even if he doesn't know of the letality of her punches.



> In the second scenario Sakura also likely wins. Really the only move Jiriaya has to could get past Byakugo-Regen is Frog-Song, and that necessitates him surviving long enough to prep SM & Frog Song. It's highly unlikely he can hold out that long against Sakura.



Frog call paralyzes Sakura for a second and Jiraiya cuts her head off.

Jiraiya's speed and everything in Sage Mode is leaps and bounds above Sakura.

Sakura's new powerup may have put her from chuunin to low kage level, to match Base Jiraiya maybe, but Jiraiya's Sage Mode puts him to again have everything in his favor considerably. With ranged jutsus with the help of Ma and Pa, Frog call, Frog Song, Chou Oodama Rasengan to her face. And even his Yomi Numa is now much much powerful in this form.

Jiraiya takes this 7/10 minimum

You used to defend Jiraiya over much tougher fighters than Sakura. She is a one-sided fighter and doesn't have the brains or the speed or skill to fight Jiraiya. I am dissapoint you put Jiraiya so low over Sakura, Turrin.
*
Just because she says she is on EMS Sasuke level doesn't mean its true. Sasuke didn't agree. Enton Kagutsuchi spammage and MS Genjutsu and Sasuke's chidori eisou would decimate her. */Thats why Naruto and Sasuke proceeded to fight whereas Sakura stayed back, and her biggest feat was what? Killing a Juubi clone? Shino did that too, so did Hinata. Jiraiya could do that too. It doesn't make sense for Sakura to be on the level of Naruto or Sasuke when Naruto and Sasuke had so much more training arcs than her, and they were already much much stronger than her since part 1 to begin with. Sure, she got that seal, but Naruto got FRS training, Sage Mode training, KCM training. Sasuke got the MS and later fused his powers with Itachi. Sakura having that seal doesn't make her any more different than Tsunade, who also had that seal and could store it for years. But 3 years worth of her chakra, which was never stated to be anything above average, isn't gonna be stronger than Kyuubi chakra. Hell, if Sakura really did catch up, Naruto sucks as a ninja, since he had so much more powerups than her, and so much more training arcs than her, and she caught up?

Naruto and Sasuke are the reincarnations of the Rikudou's sons and on top of that Naruto got the Kyuubi sealed in him and Sasuke got EMS. Sakura isn't gonna be on their level just because she thinks so. Why I don't take your reasoning seriously anymore is cause you say Sakura is on their level cause she said so, yet say Kisame is on Itachi's level when he said the opposite


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## Sauce (Aug 9, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Knowledge: Jiraiya knows the basics like she was trained by Tsunade. Sakura has no knowledge.
> Mindset: IC
> Location: Konoha
> Distance: 30 m
> ...



Sakura takes the first scenario because she will heal herself using Tsunade's technique and eventually overcome Jiraiya through her strength. She won't kill though due to IC.

Jiraiya takes the second scenario due to Ma and Pa. Regardless of whatever Sakura does Sage Arts Rasengan techiques will defeat her. Sakura is injured and does not die due to IC.


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## JuicyG (Aug 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Sakura takes Scenario 1 because of high-level Katsuyu summoning. Losses Scenario two because of lack of knowledge of frog songs.



Sakura is too limited to be able to beat Jirayia. She is a one-sided fighter, if she is unable to close the distance to start throwing hands she's useless...

Jirayia has wide range AOE attacks to keep Sakura at a distance and win with relative ease...SM just makes this a stomp


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 9, 2014)

ranjishishigami blitz, GG, 4 example...


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2014)

_Ranjishigami_ blitz? 

Sakura wins without too much trouble in scenario one, possessing the evasive skill and defensive ability to counter all of his ninjutsu attempts. She gets into close range sooner or later, ploughing through Jiraiya's Needle Jizo and killing him.

Scenario two might go to Jiraiya . . but it depends on how big a Katsuyu she can summon. More likely than not Sakura is able to bring out a massive Katsuyu whose strength in numbers will be problematic for him, even if he is faster. The recent chapter shed some light on Sakura's reflexes, as she was able to react to and dodge Kaguya's giant chakra arm for a while. It's doubtful that Jiraiya could blitz her before she could raise her arms to block whatever strike he throws at her. Her massive stamina means she can sustain herself for a long time too. I should add, with hundreds upon thousands of human sized Katsuyu scouting around the field and firing acid, it's doubtful that Jiraiya's saving grace - Frog Song, could be actually prepared. Actually, Jiraiya's preparation into Sage Mode in the first place isn't something that he's guaranteed to be capable of. So, it's sort of 50/50 I guess, but with three years of chakra I lean towards Sakura.​​


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2014)

Not sure about scenario one. But Sakura is going to have a bad, bad time against Goemon in scenario 2.

She is not beating Sage Mode Jiraiya, and Goemon is taking a huge load of chakra from her while it does considerable damage to her low durability.


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2014)

Jiraiya sinks all those Godslugs with Sage Art: Swamp of the Underworld. Or melts them with Gomen or Endan.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> _Ranjishigami_ blitz?
> 
> Sakura wins without too much trouble in scenario one, possessing the evasive skill and defensive ability to counter all of his ninjutsu attempts. She gets into close range sooner or later, ploughing through Jiraiya's Needle Jizo and killing him.​



Jiraiya still has boss summon size Yomi Numas he can use to sink her, and Sakura was struggling when she was burned a few chapters ago. Gamabunta and Jiraiya's oil and Katon combo could incinerate her lungs and kill her just from the amount of C0 that will be in her lungs.



> Scenario two might go to Jiraiya . . but it depends on how big a Katsuyu she can summon. More likely than not Sakura is able to bring out a massive Katsuyu whose strength in numbers will be problematic for him, even if he is faster. The recent chapter shed some light on Sakura's reflexes, as she was able to react to and dodge Kaguya's giant chakra arm for a while. It's doubtful that Jiraiya could blitz her before she could raise her arms to block whatever strike he throws at her. Her massive stamina means she can sustain herself for a long time too. I should add, with hundreds upon thousands of human sized Katsuyu scouting around the field and firing acid, it's doubtful that Jiraiya's saving grace - Frog Song, could be actually prepared. Actually, Jiraiya's preparation into Sage Mode in the first place isn't something that he's guaranteed to be capable of. So, it's sort of 50/50 I guess, but with three years of chakra I lean towards Sakura.


​Jiraiya in Sage Mode has the speed to dodge Sakura easily, but he can always keep his distance since he specializes in mid-range jutsus. The frogs can use Frog call to paralyze her and Jiraiya could decapitate her with Chou Oodama Rasengan, or any other jutsu of his pleasing.

Katsuyu at 10% won't kill Jiraiya when the guy can create huge swuamps to hinder their movements, regardless of how small they are, and the oil+ Katon combinations that he can produce with Ma and Pa, and with Gamabunta are enough to deal with whatever state Katsuyu is in.

Sakura really hasn't shown anything thats above Tsunade, so thats like saying Tsunade>Jiraiya, which is just not true.


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## StickaStick (Aug 9, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Sakura is too limited to be able to beat Jirayia. She is a one-sided fighter, if she is unable to close the distance to start throwing hands she's useless...
> 
> Jirayia has wide range AOE attacks to keep Sakura at a distance and win with relative ease...SM just makes this a stomp



Sorry, but no. This is more of the same of Sakura being vastly underrated and posters falling into the all too common trap around here of, "hmm... Sakura vs Jiraiya... LOL", without even playing out the actual match-up.

Byakugo enhanced regen and strength and high-level Katsuyu summoning are more than enough to handle Jiraiya. Lets look at the two main counter-arguments to this:

*Yomi Numa would take care of the Slugs.* Note likely against a massive Katsuyu summon which Sakura should be capable of. Based on the chakra she's been able to expend throughout this arc I'd say a 40+% summoning is more than reasonable. Even if you scale Yomi Numa to account for Jiraiya's illness the time he used it against Oro it still wouldn't make a difference. The one he used against Oro's snakes didn't even completely submerge it and those snakes absolutely pale in comparison to massive size of Katsuyu Sakura should be capable of bringing out. Furthermore, this is ignoring two important qualifications. One, the fact the Slugs can separate from each other as a means of escaping the swamp. Only the bottom ones would still be trapped and they could easily be de- and then re-summoned. Second, the full Katsuyu doesn't have to be summoned all in one spot at one time. With no knowledge Sakura will likely play it safe and opt for a mere 5-10% Katsuyu summoning (still significant) to test out Jiraiya's abilities. Once she realizes that he can create the swamp and what it's capable of she'll pick her spots wisely on where and when to summon. Good luck to Jiraiya to not only make a dent in Katsuyu's numbers with the swamp but also doing it at the same time that he's being constantly pressured by slugs all around him.

*Jiraiya is too fast for her.* Nonesense. I wouldn't have necessarily believed this even before the most recent chapter but it did alleviate any doubts. Sakura was demonstrated to be able to avoid Katsuyu's chakra arms. Do people even realize how incredible of a speed feet that is? Fucking _Rikudo-Mode Naruto_ refereed to them as insanely fast and was shown to have difficulties evading them and Sakura outright dodged it. This dwarfs any speed feet Jiraiya has shown by miles. With this in mind, Sakura should be more than capable of not only avoiding virtually any of Jiraiya's attacks, but outright pressuring him as well. And this is while Jiraiya is having to deal with Katsuyu all over the battle field. So please, spare me Jiraiya being faster when that is clearly not what the manga is showing us now.

Finally, her Byakugo enables her to deal nicely with any burns she might suffer from Jiaiya's and Jiraiya's toads oil and fire combos and pretty much anything else Jiraiya can dish out. Jiraiya's toads will also find it hard to stay on the battle field when Sakura can easily out maneuver them and send them into another stratosphere with one of her punches. Jiraiya, in contrast, has no easily means of dispelling Sakura's slugs. As I said, Jiraiya's best chance is in Scenario 2 starting in SM and catching Sakura and her lack of knowledge off-guard with Gama Rinshō or Kawazu Naki. However, I'm starting to question whether this is even a viable strategy since with no knowledge Sakura would likely opt to create some distance (not wanting to engage in CQC against a fight who's capabilities she's unfamiliar with) and summon some Katsuyu off the bat. With a sizeable amount of Katsuyu on the battle field Sakura would then have not only a means of impeding Jiraiya should he pull one of the frong calls off, but also serve as a way to break her out of Gama Rinshō' genjutsu. If Jiraiya can't pull off one the frog calls early then he runs into the same problems as outlined in Scenario 1 and it goes downhill quickly form there.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Jiraiya sinks all those Godslugs with Sage Art: Swamp of the Underworld. Or melts them with Gomen or Endan.



That's assuming he successfully reaches Sage Mode in the first place, and also assuming Sakura doesn't de-summon and re-summon another massive Katsuyu (her chakra reserves are more than big enough to do so). I don't remember Goemon or Endan having super fast activation and movement speed to the point that Sakura couldn't jump out of the way - though correct me if I'm wrong.



KyuubiYondaime said:


> Jiraiya still has boss summon size Yomi Numas he can use to sink her,



Sage Mode Jiraiya didn't use a boss summon sized Yomi Numa to sink Human Path, why would he do it against Sakura? Though even if he did, she could probably just punch the mud and set herself free, or failing that summon Katsuyu to push her out.



> Gamabunta and Jiraiya's oil and Katon combo could incinerate her lungs and kill her just from the amount of C0 that will be in her lungs.



No, C0 will not fill her lungs and kill her because this is a fictional manga where people repeatedly defy the laws of physics almost every chapter. There has been no case in the history of Naruto of a character inhaling so much C0 that they died. So no, this is not happening, ever. The fire would frazzle her skin and make her scream and writhe in pain though, that's true. The thing is, the flames will burn her for only a few seconds, and afterwards she's just going to regenerate. Even though she probably can't fight through the damage, she'll still live because of Byakugou. Katsuyu divisions can also envelop her and remove the flames if they've caught onto her body.



> Jiraiya in Sage Mode has the speed to dodge Sakura easily, but he can always keep his distance since he specializes in mid-range jutsus. The frogs can use Frog call to paralyze her and Jiraiya could decapitate her with Chou Oodama Rasengan, or any other jutsu of his pleasing.



After the most recent chapter, where she reacted to and moved out of the way of one of Kaguya's chakra arms, I doubt he can decapitate her. He's faster than her for sure, but no decapitation will be happening. He'll smack her with powerful ninjutsu over and over again, and she'll keep regenerating. His only shot is Frog Song imo, but that takes serious preparation, which he can't attain easily if she's running after him with massive AoE attacks. 



> Katsuyu at 10% won't kill Jiraiya when the guy can create huge swuamps to hinder their movements, regardless of how small they are, and the oil+ Katon combinations that he can produce with Ma and Pa, and with Gamabunta are enough to deal with whatever state Katsuyu is in.



If he shoots fire at Katsuyu then she liquefies herself into a pool of fluid and then reforms afterwards, mitigating most of, if not all of the damage it might have inflicted. There's also the fact that a mini-Katsuyu survived KN4's chakra cloak, and is probably very resistant to heat subsequently.



> Sakura really hasn't shown anything thats above Tsunade, so thats like saying Tsunade>Jiraiya, which is just not true.



Tsunade is about equal to Jiraiya, meaning if they were to fight 50 times, then statistically speaking she should win about 25 match ups while he would win the other 25. Hence, there are clearly scenarios where Tsunade could defeat Jiraiya. Sakura is almost as strong as Tsunade at this point, so there is obviously reason to believe that she could defeat him too, even if she isn't _generally speaking_ as powerful as he is.​​


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 9, 2014)

Godaime, Tsunade is not stronger than Jiraiya.

1. Jiraiya in* base* has higher stats than her in the databook, so imagine just how much stronger his Sage Mode stats would be?

2. Hiruzen wanted Jiraiya or Orochimaru as Hokages, never was it mentioned he cared about Tsunade for that role.

3. Base Jiraiya stated he'd have to kill her if she betrayed the Leaf, and Jiraiya is not someone.

4. Hell, even in that crazy Sannin mythology trylogy, Frogs>Slugs.

5. Jiraiya actually killed 3 paths of Pain, and wasn't even touched by Pain until Pain ambushed him, and in the Pain admitted that if Jiraiya had known their secret, they would never have won. Whereas Nagato was confident in his abilities to take down Tsunade with just Deva Path apparently and he didn't even take her seriously at all.

She was like "As if I would let you"
And he was like "I see that chakra in your feet. Do you think that will make a difference againts me? Tactics are useless infront of overwhelming power" 

Basically meaning if Nagato had wanted, he could have easily given Nagato enough chakra to rip Tsunade a new one, and this is something that was essentially portrayed in the manga.

Tsunade was absolutely nothing to Pain, atleast Jiraiya was something, even if he couldn't win.

And then when Pain destroys the village and is gonna kill her like the weak fighting type Hokage that she was acting out like, Naruto comes and saves her, you know, a Sage, what Jiraiya is too.

And Naruto had knowledge on Pain, Jiraiya didn't.

It's good to like Tsunade and all, but saying she is Jiraiya's equal just cause of her titles is bad.

She looked bad againts Pain, she looked bad againts Kabuto, hell even againts the Zetsu Yamato, with the aid of 4 other Kages, she was just standing there being useless. Maybe Jiraiya could have won that with a huge sized Yomi Numa, because you see, Jiraiya has jutsus witch actual range and which use tactics instead of "let me run and try to punch and get clobbered by swords in the meantime" type of strategy, and thats why he is a more efficient and just overall much better fighter than Tsunade is.

And Madara is incredibly strong, I know, but he was literally toying with all of them. And he called her a weak woman.

This manga has incredibly strong kunoichi like Kayuya, Naruto's mom, etc. But Tsunade is low Kage level tbh. And so is Sakura.


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## Lord Aizen (Aug 9, 2014)

Sakura can't even beat a few juubi fodder and you're putting her against jiraiya?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 9, 2014)

KyuubiYondaime said:


> Godaime, Tsunade is not stronger than Jiraiya.



I'm glad that you decided to not fucking read what I wrote. 



> 1. Jiraiya in* base* has higher stats than her in the databook, so imagine just how much stronger his Sage Mode stats would be?



He has a tiny 0.5 more than her _overall_, but he's still below her in taijutsu, intelligence, strength and genjutsu. It's not like the databook factors in Tsunade's stat boosts under the influence of Byakugou either. Besides that, it's not like the databook statistics are be all and end all to a match up. Having higher stats doesn't necessarily mean you can defeat someone. 



> 2. Hiruzen wanted Jiraiya or Orochimaru as Hokages, never was it mentioned he cared about Tsunade for that role.



Tsunade all but retired as a shinobi after the Second Great War and then went into exile. So, duh.



> 3. Base Jiraiya stated he'd have to kill her if she betrayed the Leaf, and Jiraiya is not someone.
> 
> 4. Hell, even in that crazy Sannin mythology trylogy, Frogs>Slugs.



You're already making a massive contradiction. You imply that because Orochimaru was chosen to be Hokage, she was therefore less impressive than him, yet the Sansukumi way of thinking would have it that Slugs>Snakes. Pick an argument.

And yes, Jiraiya is better suited to fighting Tsunade than Orochimaru is, but the fact of the matter is that the Sannin have always been implied to be about equal. Quoting this, since you never replied to it and instead spat out some other crap that had nothing to do with my argument:



			
				Godaime Tsunade said:
			
		

> Tsunade is about equal to Jiraiya, meaning if they were to fight 50 times, then statistically speaking she should win about 25 match ups while he would win the other 25.



Change that figure to Jiraiya winning 30 match ups to Tsunade winning 20, if you really want. I don't care. The fact remains that Tsunade _could_ defeat Jiraya, simply because she's close to him in strength, even if he does beat her more times than she beats him.



> 5. Jiraiya actually killed 3 paths of Pain, and wasn't even touched by Pain until Pain ambushed him, and in the Pain admitted that if Jiraiya had known their secret, they would never have won. Whereas Nagato was confident in his abilities to take down Tsunade with just Deva Path apparently and he didn't even take her seriously at all.



He didn't take her seriously because she was a shivering old hag who could barely move by the time she went to fight him. Herp derp. Also, even if Pein did say that about Jiraiya, I doubt that it's actually true. Can you try and come up with a justified argument as to how Jiraiya could defeat all six paths of pain, even if he did know of his secret? I can't, and I'm a big Jiraiya fan.



> She was like "As if I would let you"
> And he was like "I see that chakra in your feet. Do you think that will make a difference againts me? Tactics are useless infront of overwhelming power"



Nagato was an arrogant bastard. He acted the same way in front of Naruto, and where did that get him?



> Basically meaning if Nagato had wanted, he could have easily given Nagato enough chakra to rip Tsunade a new one, and this is something that was essentially portrayed in the manga.



Deva wouldn't have ripped Tsunade a new one. He'd have needed Chibaku Tensei to have had a shot at killing her, and when he's being pushed into using his most powerful technique among not just Deva, but among all of Paths, and a technique that weakens him and shortens his lifespan at that, it means he obviously is not able to defeat her _easily_ at all.



> And then when Pain destroys the village and is gonna kill her like the weak fighting type Hokage that she was acting out like, Naruto comes and saves her, you know, a Sage, what Jiraiya is too.



What logic is this? That you need to be a Sage to worth half a damn? I don't know what the fuck you mean by the " weak fighting type Hokage that she was acting out like " either. 



> And Naruto had knowledge on Pain, Jiraiya didn't.



Sage Mode Naruto fought against all six paths at once, you realise this yes? You did in fact read this part of the manga, am I right? Jiraiya fought against Animal, Human and Preta Path, just _three_ paths. He had to work his absolute ass off just to defeat one of them, and got stabbed in the process. Once he defeated the other two, Naraka, Asura and Deva showed up and fucked him up majorly. 



> It's good to like Tsunade and all, but saying she is Jiraiya's equal just cause of her titles is bad.



Did the Sannin deadlock mean nothing to you? 



> She looked bad againts Pain,



She didn't even fight Pein. So, this is completely irrelevant.



> she looked bad againts Kabuto



She was scared of blood and hadn't fought a battle in about 20 years. Current Tsunade is much stronger. Again, irrelevant. 



> hell even againts the Zetsu Yamato, with the aid of 4 other Kages, she was just standing there being useless.



I literally can't even.



> Maybe Jiraiya could have won that with a huge sized Yomi Numa, because you see, Jiraiya has jutsus witch actual range and which use tactics instead of "let me run and try to punch and get clobbered by swords in the meantime" type of strategy, and thats why he is a more efficient and just overall much better fighter than Tsunade is.



Well if he was capable of doing so, he chose not to. Bad judgement call from Jiraiya in that case. There's no reason why he'd choose to do any different in this match-up either. Also, I would just like to point out to you that that "let me run and try to punch and get clobbered by swords in the meantime" strategy, as you so terribly put it, has worked for Tsunade literally every time she's used it. Against Kabuto? Oh yes, she took a hit and retaliated while he was unsuspecting. Against Orochimaru? He hits her repeatedly and then she gets up and blocks his hits (and blitzes him). Against Madara? Oh yes, she waits until he thinks she's dead and then smashes the sword and rips it out of her, getting closer to stabbing him than any of the other Kage did prior. On the other hand, Jiraiya's apparently _much more effective_ battle style has failed on him repeatedly. He is a much more versatile combatant than her yes, but that doesn't make him " significantly "  better than her at combat. He has always been implied to be on the same bracket of strength as her, _always_.



> And Madara is incredibly strong, I know, but he was literally toying with all of them. And he called her a weak woman.



Then she smashed open his Susano'o and he retracted that statement.



> This manga has incredibly strong kunoichi like Kayuya, Naruto's mom, etc. But Tsunade is low Kage level tbh. And so is Sakura.



Kushina was never implied to be any stronger than Tsunade was. Tsunade on the other hand was regarded as the strongest kunoichi in the world by Konoha's Jounin Commander, Shikaku. You're ignoring canon and completely underestimating Tsunade.



Lord Aizen said:


> Sakura can't even beat a few juubi fodder and you're putting her against jiraiya?



Sakura blew up dozens of Juubi fodder. What manga are you reading?​​


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## FlamingRain (Aug 9, 2014)

It's important to note that Super Sakura's advantages against high-tiers are all contingent upon her Chakra reserves and control. Chakra-enhanced-strength by its very nature can only be applied to striking strength, it can have no effect on lifting or grappling strength because there is no moment of impact for the Chakra to be instantaneously released at. At the same time, Byakugō no Jutsu cannot bring somebody back from past the line of death, it can only prevent it from being crossed assuming that that person lives through whatever assault they face long enough for the regeneration to take effect before death even occurs.

That matters _a lot_, because it means that unlike her master, Tsunade, whom traces her ancestry back through the two clans descended from Rikudō's strong-bodied younger son, Asura, Sakura can be killed immediately before she can regenerate by more techniques and she can't sheer force her way out of as many either.

In other words, because her body isn't naturally super Ōdama Rasengans and Twin Rasengans would do well in critically injuring her, most of Jiraiya's Ranjishigami constriction maneuvers can shred Sakura apart without without her being able to tank it or resist it with her strength (because it's striking-only), and Gamayu Endan can easily turn her into cinders for similar reasons. In the unlikely event that they don't outright kill her at some point, they _will_ go a long way to deplete her Chakra reserves.

Reverting to Katsuyu isn't going to be too beneficial either because if Jiraiya casts the Doton: Yomi Numa technique he's managed to not only strip Sakura of her precious ability to bust open the ground sending house-sized debris everywhere, but also incapacitate the giant slug because it is more susceptible to the dark swamp than any other legendary summon we've been introduced to thus far. If Sakura herself is caught in the swamp, she won't be able to get out because her base strength is no greater than that giant snake drugged up base Jiraiya immobilized in the Sannin battle.

I'm confident he's tricky enough that he can do all of those things if he wants, too, with a number of approaches considering line-of-sight blocking smokescreens and Katons, Gamadaira — Kageayatsuri no Jutsu, Kage Bunshin, etc.

Truly Jiraiya is a bad match for even Tsunade herself because many of his techniques not only envelop the full-body but also have the nasty side-effect of clinging and continuously burning for a period of time after initial contact, meaning Tsunade's Chakra stock consumption is going to be hastened while Jiraiya's cost is kept down by both the very oil component that prolongs the burning and the natural amplification of Sage Mode.

Sage Mode is not necessary _here_, because Sakura is really just a lightweight Tsunade Jr., one with less knowledge of his abilities that may very well be killed before her ultimate regenerative technique can even become a real factor.

Jiraiya wins in both scenarios.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I
> In other words, because her body isn't naturally super Ōdama Rasengans and Twin Rasengans would do well in critically injuring her


Dude this is nothing, but fanfiction. Never once was Tsunade highlighted as being able to tank things better because of her Senju ancestry. Never once was Sakura highlighted as not being able to tank things as well as Tsunade due to her lack of Senju ancestry. Sakura w/ Byakugo is more difficult to kill, because she has more chakra stored in her Byakugo-Seal. Not the other way around.



> most of Jiraiya's Ranjishigami constriction maneuvers can shred Sakura apart without without her being able to tank it or resist it with her strength (because it's striking-only)


She'd punch through the hair separating it from Jiriaya's body. If she's completely bound by it, she summon Katsuya to bust her free, the same way Naruto summoned Bunta to escape Gaara's Sand-Coffin.Ranjishigami is never defeating Sakura, period.



> and Gamayu Endan can easily turn her into cinders for similar reasons.


Gensis of Rebirth (not even Byakugo) allowed Tsunade (and even fodder shinobi) to tank CST. There is absolutely no way Sakura doesn't casually survive Gama Yu Endan w/ Byakugo.



> Reverting to Katsuyu isn't going to be too beneficial either because if Jiraiya casts the Doton: Yomi Numa technique he's managed to not only strip Sakura of her precious ability to bust open the ground sending house-sized debris everywhere, but also incapacitate the giant slug because it is more susceptible to the dark swamp than any other legendary summon we've been introduced to thus far.


Than Sakura proceeds to re-summon(or summon a new) the slug outside of the swamp. This is assuming the swamp can even hold what-ever absurd portion of Katsuya Sakura has summoned.



> If Sakura herself is caught in the swamp, she won't be able to get out because her base strength is no greater than that giant snake drugged up base Jiraiya immobilized in the Sannin battle.


Sakura uses Kuchiyose to summon a Katsuya lifting her outside of the swamp



> line-of-sight blocking smokescreens


What line of sight blocking is he going to use. Smoke-Bombs? Shima's Dust Cloud? Sakura would ground pound creating an explosion so massive that not only will it prevent Jiriaya from approaching her, but blow away the smoke. 



> Katons


Which would do nothing to Byakugo-Sakura



> Gamadaira ? Kageayatsuri no Jutsu


Which requires Jiriaya to come into CQC to grab Sakura's shadow, which is going to be a death sentence 9 out of 10 times he attempts it.

Also assuming it's successful, than what? How long can he hold someone of Sakura's immense chakra? What can he do while he holds her? What is he doing about the Katsuya on the field.



> Kage Bunshin


Sakura's Ground Pound or mass Katsuya are the ultimate KB destroyers



> Sage Mode is not necessary here, because Sakura is really just a lightweight Tsunade Jr., one with less knowledge of his abilities that may very well be killed before her ultimate regenerative technique can even become a real factor.


Nope Sakura is a Tsunade on riods. She can do everything Tsunad can but better, and has vastly great chakra reserves to draw on. Literally Jiriaya's only chance is Sennin Modo and even than it is doubtful that he'd be able to win.


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> It's important to note that Super Sakura's advantages against high-tiers are all contingent upon her Chakra reserves and control. Chakra-enhanced-strength by its very nature can only be applied to striking strength, it can have no effect on lifting or grappling strength because there is no moment of impact for the Chakra to be instantaneously released at.* At the same time, Byakugō no Jutsu cannot bring somebody back from past the line of death, it can only prevent it from being crossed assuming that that person lives through whatever assault they face long enough for the regeneration to take effect before death even occurs.*



If only everybody could see this...

+reps. If you don't see new rep is because i still need to spread more.


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## Bonly (Aug 9, 2014)

I tend to be of the opinion that Jiraiya has a good shot at beating Tsunade who's better then Sakura so I can see Jiraiya coming out on top in the end. Doton: Yomi Numa, some boss toads, Kekkai: Gama Hyōrō, Gamadaira — Kageayatsuri, and all that crap is going to be too much for Sakura


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## ShinobisWill (Aug 9, 2014)

Jiraiya wins both scenarios.

Sakura is overrated in strength. Fighting wise, she was already proven slower than sharinganless Kakashi and has objectively worse reflexes. Her best hope is starting the match long distance and just destroying the ground, but that can be dodged and approached with feints, bunshins and logs. 

Her high chakra is great but isn't that helpful in a fight with her own abilities except in healing, and as long as you have knowledge of her regeneration, you shouldn't have a problem dealing with it. Katusya is too slow and her spray will get evaded..even Deva dodged around frog summons from Naruto, which are far more mobile than Katsuya. Not to mention Jiraiya has said summons. 

I will say it's mid-high difficulty in favor of base Jiraiya, though. It's nowhere near a joke match-up but I don't feel she wins, either. She gets demolished by Sage Jiraiya.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Dude this is nothing, but fanfiction. Never once was Tsunade highlighted as being able to tank things better because of her Senju ancestry.



That's because it's so obvious it shouldn't need to be.

Let's lay this out:

_*1.)*_ It was highlighted that Senju's inherited the strong-body of the younger son.
_*2.)*_ It was highlighted Tsunade is the granddaughter of Hashirama Senju, and thus should have inherited a strong body from that side of the family.
_*3.)*_ It was highlighted that Uzumaki's are distant relatives of the Senju and have a ridiculously strong life force.
_*4.)*_ It was highlighted that Tsunade is the granddaughter of Mito Uzumaki, and thus should have inherited a strong life force from that side of the family.
_*5.)*_ Out-of-breath, rusty, fresh off of substance abuse Tsunade kept fighting through Kabuto's scalpels when it was acknowledged that a normal person would have been debilitated and unable to even move anymore.
_*6.)*_ This same Tsunade sustained further injuries from Orochimaru's Kusanagi no Tsurugi before proceeding to deck him in the face.
_*7.)*_ Tsunade remained in one piece for the most part after going through Mabui's Tensō no Jutsu, which had previously ripped everyone else that had gone through it to ribbons bar the flipping Third Raikage of all people.
_*8.)*_ Tsunade proceeded to boss summon after being split in half post-Madara's rampage.

The woman's a freak. If you don't come away from this acknowledging that Tsunade's ancestry gives her an extreme _natural_ resistance to damage independent of her regeneration you need to stop playing dumb.

Now compare that to Sakura who got knocked out by Kabuto's booty, Kn4's casual tail swing, and a generic rock.

That's not even close to being able to survive complete bifurcation, so you're sentiment is more accurately worded as: "Never once has Sakura been highlighted to be able to tank things as well as Tsunade despite her lack of any special ancestral ties."



> If she's completely bound by it, she summon Katsuya to bust her free, the same way Naruto summoned Bunta to escape Gaara's Sand-Coffin.



If she's completely bound by it she won't be able to even bring her hand to her mouth to get the blood to summon, because her base strength doesn't exceed summon-crushing-power. It also doesn't exceed giant snake immobilizing while at minimal effect power, so she won't be summoning out of Yomi Numa either.

She won't be moving at all, she'll just be at Jiraiya's mercy.



> Gensis of Rebirth (not even Byakugo) allowed Tsunade (and even fodder shinobi) to tank CST.



Tsunade only took the knock-back effect of CST, and there was no regenerating to attribute it to because she siphoned all of her Chakra to Katsuyu instead. Katsuyu cushioning being the only reason the remainder of the villagers survived the blast, Tsunade is naturally more tanky than Sakura anyway.



> Than Sakura proceeds to re-summon(or summon a new) the slug outside of the swamp. This is assuming the swamp can even hold what-ever absurd portion of Katsuya Sakura has summoned.



And Jiraiya casually makes another swamp, so this gets her nowhere.



> What line of sight blocking is he going to use. Smoke-Bombs? Shima's Dust Cloud?



Yes.



> Sakura would ground pound creating an explosion so massive that not only will it prevent Jiriaya from approaching her, but blow away the smoke.



And that's going to achieve jack all considering that her explosion left enough smoke behind that she didn't notice the Jūbling approaching until it was already at her position.



> Which would do nothing to Byakugo-Sakura.



It'd block her line of sight, like I said it would.



> Which requires Jiriaya to come into CQC to grab Sakura's shadow.



Except Sakura's shadow isn't the one he's after.



> Also assuming it's successful, than what? How long can he hold someone of Sakura's immense chakra? What can he do while he holds her? What is he doing about the Katsuya on the field.



He can walk her over to the swamp and make her drown herself, while Katsuyu is drowning.



> Sakura's Ground Pound or mass Katsuya are the ultimate KB destroyers



They're only meant to serve as distractions. If she's having to spend the time employing those tactics to get rid of them they're serving their purpose.



> Nope Sakura is a Tsunade on riods. She can do everything Tsunad can but better, and has vastly great chakra reserves to draw on.



I've already explained why Chakra reserves aren't everything.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm glad that you decided to not fucking read what I wrote. ​



You said they were equals, I still don't agree with this, nor think that the manga did the manga portrayed this, as Jiraiya has always looked better than Tsunade.




> He has a tiny 0.5 more than her _overall_, but he's still below her in taijutsu, intelligence, strength and genjutsu. It's not like the databook factors in Tsunade's stat boosts under the influence of Byakugou either. Besides that, it's not like the databook statistics are be all and end all to a match up. Having higher stats doesn't necessarily mean you can defeat someone.


He still is better than her overall, even without Sage Mode. Byakugo mode doesn't enhance everything for Tsunade like Sage Mode does for Jiraiya. Only her healing and strength. Jiraiya's speed is enhanced by Sage Mode, his strength, he gets Ma and Pa who have sound Genjutsus like Frog call, Frog Song, his ninjutsu is also widely enhanced.




> You're already making a massive contradiction. You imply that because Orochimaru was chosen to be Hokage, she was therefore less impressive than him, yet the Sansukumi way of thinking would have it that Slugs>Snakes. Pick an argument.


All I am saying is that whatever line you choose to use for Tsunade, she still looks worst than Jiraiya, wether that'd be Hiruzen's opinion, Databook, Sannin lockdown, or whatever, she still loses to Jiraiya. Or if you go by feats.

For example, *I doubt Minato would think that there is no more fine shinobi than Tsunade.*

*I also doubt that Kakashi would think that Itachi and Kisame would flee at the sight of Tsunade.
*
*
And more than all, I doubt Pain would say that if Tsunade had knowledge on him, that they would never have beaten him.*

So, if we go by hype, Jiraiya also has faaar more hype than her.



> And yes, Jiraiya is better suited to fighting Tsunade than Orochimaru is, but the fact of the matter is that the Sannin have always been implied to be about equal. Quoting this, since you never replied to it and instead spat out some other crap that had nothing to do with my argument:


It's true, Jiraiya is a good matchup for Tsunade, that doesn't mean he isn't an overall better shinobi than she is, because he is.



> Change that figure to Jiraiya winning 30 match ups to Tsunade winning 20, if you really want. I don't care. The fact remains that Tsunade _could_ defeat Jiraya, simply because she's close to him in strength, even if he does beat her more times than she beats him.


No. Jiraiya would win all 30. Because Tsunade's only shot with Jiraiya is to catch him in one of her punches, but Jiraiya even has knowledge on that and wouldn't let her get near him, and he actually has the mid-ranged jutsus and means of fighting her from a distance.



> He didn't take her seriously because she was a shivering old hag who could barely move by the time she went to fight him. Herp derp. Also, even if Pein did say that about Jiraiya, I doubt that it's actually true. Can you try and come up with a justified argument as to how Jiraiya could defeat all six paths of pain, even if he did know of his secret? I can't, and I'm a big Jiraiya fan.


Jiraiya would have ripped Kabuto a new one, Tsunade really didn't have an excuse for looking *that* bad. I mean, Kabuto did state that Taijutsu was his worst field, and he was still beating her or fighting on her level minimum *even before* he used the phobia entered it. And Kabuto was about mid-Jounin level back then. So no matter how much better Tsunade is now, there's no way she is Sage Jiraiya's level in Part 2.




> Nagato was an arrogant bastard. He acted the same way in front of Naruto, and where did that get him?


Nagato actually had Naruto pinned down before Hinata intervened and then the Kyuubi broke free.

And even when they fought and Naruto had gotten much stronger with KCM, Nagato still owned him and Bee, and Naruto had to be saved by Itachi Uchiha.




> Deva wouldn't have ripped Tsunade a new one. He'd have needed Chibaku Tensei to have had a shot at killing her, and when he's being pushed into using his most powerful technique among not just Deva, but among all of Paths, and a technique that weakens him and shortens his lifespan at that, it means he obviously is not able to defeat her _easily_ at all.


Chou Shinra Tensei also could have broke her neck.

But still, Tsunade would be owned by 3 paths of Pain or maybe 4, maybe even without Deva.




> What logic is this? That you need to be a Sage to worth half a damn? I don't know what the fuck you mean by the " weak fighting type Hokage that she was acting out like " either.


I never stated that Sage Mode is the only means of becoming strong in the manga.

However, Shikaku did say that because of Sage Mode, Naruto was in another tier than everyone else in Konoha, and he really didn't even know the extent of all of Naruto's abilities. Imagine Sage Jiraiya with all his abilities. Sage Mode doesn't make the shinobi, but it* greatly* enhances a shinobi. And if Base Jiraiya is already on Tsunade's tier, Sage Jiraiya makes him a tier above her.



> Sage Mode Naruto fought against all six paths at once, you realise this yes? You did in fact read this part of the manga, am I right? Jiraiya fought against Animal, Human and Preta Path, just _three_ paths. He had to work his absolute ass off just to defeat one of them, and got stabbed in the process. Once he defeated the other two, Naraka, Asura and Deva showed up and fucked him up majorly.


Jiraiya only got stabbed after he was ambushed after killing 3 of them.

Even before Frog song, he had Human Path trapped in Yomi Numa (and blind), the Fat Pain was busy absorbing a Katon, and he was owning Animal Path Pain. He could have probably beaten those 3 once he managed to separate them.



> Then she smashed open his Susano'o and he retracted that statement.


A ribcage stage 1 Susanoo. Madara could have upgraded that to Stage 2, 3, 4 and Perfect Susanoo anytime and Tsunade would have being fucked.

It seems the only version of Susanoo she can smash is stage 1, and she didn't even do it completely, just cracks, but Madara was still laughing and how weak they are, since he still had all those other versions of Susanoo up his sleeve and they couldn't even hurt him with stage 1, since yes, they were cracking it, but they never managed to destroy it, or hurt him for that manner.

He was literally fighting like at 10% in that particular moment. Then they all combined their powers and managed to force him to use Perfect Susanoo, but when that appeared they were completly fodder to him.

They were in truth, chuunins vs a Kage. Its like if a chuunin fought Ei.​


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## Rocky (Aug 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> That's assuming he successfully reaches Sage Mode in the first place.



1.) Summon Gamabunta.

2.) Get on Gamabunta.

3.) Flee on Gamabunta until Sage Mode is achieved. 

The Location is humongous. Sakura isn't going to catch him, nor is Katsuyu.



> and also assuming Sakura doesn't de-summon and re-summon another massive Katsuyu (her chakra reserves are more than big enough to do so).



...and Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa again.



> I don't remember Goemon or Endan having super fast activation and movement speed to the point that Sakura couldn't jump out of the way - though correct me if I'm wrong.



They're not fast, they're just very large. She isn't jumping away from AoE many times the size of the Boss Summons. 

I was talking about Katsuyu anyway, who can't jump at all.


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## StickaStick (Aug 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...and Jiraiya uses Yomi Numa again.


Ans Sakura would de- and re-summon again. Given Sakura's superior chakra reserves Jiraiya probably doesn't want to play this game.



> They're not fast, they're just very large. She isn't jumping away from AoE many times the size of the Boss Summons.


What's stopping Sakura from punching a rock formation out of the ground to block LOS?



> I was talking about Katsuyu anyway, who can't jump at all.


This wouldn't make any significant dent in Katsuyu's numbers. The Goemon he used against Pain is paltry compared to a even a low-level Katsuyu summoning.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> _*1.)*_ It was highlighted that Senju's inherited the strong-body of the younger son.
> _*2.)*_ It was highlighted Tsunade is the granddaughter of Hashirama Senju, and thus should


Here's where you loose me. Where was it indicated that Tsunade inherited the strong-body of the younger son? Hashirama was indicated to be special even among the Senju, so not everyone in the Senju clan is inheriting the physical energy of the younger son or at least not as strongly. In Tsunade's case she isn't even necessarily as tied to the Senju blood-line as random fodder-senju. Her grand-father was Hashirmaa, but we do not know what her mother was. If her mother was not a Senju, than she could easily take after her mother and not have inherited any of the Senju skills. 



> It was highlighted that Uzumaki's are distant relatives of the Senju and have a ridiculously strong life force


See above it applies equally to Tsunade's Uzamaki lineage



> Out-of-breath, rusty, fresh off of substance abuse Tsunade kept fighting through Kabuto's scalpels when it was acknowledged that a normal person would have been debilitated and unable to even move anymore.


She is a master medic ninja. Sakura in the Suna-Arc she fought through explosive tag being detonated in her face, and being run through by a sword



> This same Tsunade sustained further injuries from Orochimaru's Kusanagi no Tsurugi before proceeding to deck him in the face.


Sakrua proceeded to deck Juubidara in the face, while having Juubidara's Gudodama staff pierced through her chest and lung.



> sunade remained in one piece for the most part after going through Mabui's Tensō no Jutsu, which had previously ripped everyone else that had gone through it to ribbons bar the flipping Third Raikage of all people.


And it was Tsunade's Gensis of Rebirth that was highlighted as allowing her to do that:
_mid-strike_

Sakura has Gensis or Rebirth, no scratch that she has Byakugo, and she has more chakra to fuel it with than Tsunade has to fuel her Gensis Rebirth. 

Sakura would be able to do the same thing.



> Tsunade proceeded to boss summon after being split in half post-Madara's rampage


Again she was able to do that thanks to Gensis or Rebirth:
_mid-strike_



> The woman's a freak. If you don't come away from this acknowledging that Tsunade's ancestry gives her an extreme natural resistance to damage independent of her regeneration you need to stop playing dumb.


I come away from it acknowledging Tsunade is a brilliant medical ninja, but ultimately was surpassed by her student, just like all the other Sannin.



> Now compare that to Sakura who got knocked out by Kabuto's booty, Kn4's casual tail swing, and a generic rock.


I think it's completely disingenuous to argue based on Sakura's lowest end feats from hundreds of chapters ago, in a discussion about current-Sakura. So i'm not going to even bother with this.



> If she's completely bound by it she won't be able to even bring her hand to her mouth to get the blood to summon, because her base strength doesn't exceed summon-crushing-power.


So let me get this straight Sakura is going to be completely bound by the hair before she can even bite her finger. Come on dude, this is the same hair Jutsu that Animal-Path was able to casually Kwarimi out of. 

Additionally unless the hair completely binds even Sakura's fingers she can generate a chakra scalpel to cut herself and draw blood. 

Finally Sakura probably doesn't even need to punch to Cherry Blossom impact, as all it is, is exploding chakra from the fist, which should be possible whether the person makes the motion or not.



> It also doesn't exceed giant snake immobilizing while at minimal effect power, so she won't be summoning out of Yomi Numa either.


The Yomi Numa doesn't instantly cover the entire body, it forms bellow the feat and than the opponent sinks. As Sakura is sinking she will just draw blood for summoning.



> Tsunade only took the knock-back effect of CST,


The knock-back of CST is still far beyond any attack that Base-Jiriaya has.



> and there was no regenerating to attribute it to because she siphoned all of her Chakra to Katsuyu instead. .


Huh, she obviously used it on herself as well.



> Katsuyu cushioning being the only reason the remainder of the villagers survived the blast, Tsunade is naturally more tanky than Sakura anyway.


And Sakura won't have Katsuya out if Jiriaya summons Bunta...come on dude.



> And Jiraiya casually makes another swamp, so this gets her nowhere.


And she casually summons another Katsuya, so it gets him no where. If we rinse and repeat this over and over again, Sakura will also out-last him due to 3-Years worth of chakra on-top of her natural supply.  And this also assumes, she and Katsuya fall for the same trick, over and over again, which doesn't make sense with them both being characterized as very intelligent.



> And that's going to achieve jack all considering that her explosion left enough smoke behind that she didn't notice the Jūbling approaching until it was already at her position.


It will achieve keeping Jiriaya at bay until the smoke has cleared, because he wont' be able to get anywhere near Sakura due to the shock-wave. 



> It'd block her line of sight, like I said it would.


I don't see why Sakura losing her line of sight is even a big deal to begin with. Base-Jiriaya has nothing that can harm her w/ Byakugo-Activated and if she has Katsuya on the field she literally has hundreds (or thousands of eyes) that can be telepathically linked to a Katsuya feeding her information. The chance of Jiriaya being able to LOS block every Katsuya is basically non-existent.



> Except Sakura's shadow isn't the one he's after.


What one is he after then?



> He can walk her over to the swamp and make her drown herself, while Katsuyu is drowning.


So he can maintain hold over her infinitely? Because otherwise Sakura as a magical Ninja can probably already hold her breath for an extremely long period of time and even after she can't Byakugo will keep healing her from any damage done to her body by not receiving oxygen, which she can hold as long as a 3-YEAR supply will hold out. And if Katsuya is out she can protect Sakura as well

Given that his best feat is against a fodder, I really feel your stretching this.




> hey're only meant to serve as distractions. If she's having to spend the time employing those tactics to get rid of them they're serving their purpose.


What time? She pounds the ground and they are done. It also serves the double purpose of not allowing Jiriaya to get anywhere near her. And if Katsuya is out she can protect Sakura as well



> I've already explained why Chakra reserves aren't everything.


It's not just chakra reserves, she's also vastly superior as far as Chakra Control is concerned, which is at the heart of everything major that Tsunade and Sakura do as Ninja


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 9, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> _Ranjishigami_ blitz?
> 
> Sakura wins without too much trouble...
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I read the text wall, but I didn't notice any counter argument, so...


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## ShinobisWill (Aug 9, 2014)

Don't tell me anyone here thinks Tsunade could even defeat Deva by herself? The guy who smashed 3 boss toad summons at once, while avoiding them, and couldn't even be finished off by a sage mode Naruto before the time limit ran out? Who also escaped the 6-tailed Kyuubi and forced it into 8th tail? The guy who literally cannot be touched by taijutsu users without insane speed?

It isn't even proven that Sakura is beyond that same Tsunade, except in strength.


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## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 9, 2014)

Sakura really isnt that much different now than she was when part 2 started except for more chakra which makes her smashy smashy stronger. That doesnt put her from Chuunin level to High Kage level like KCM Naruto or EMS Sasuke, shes not even Sage Jiraiya level. I bet you would have never said Sakura at beginning of part2 as stronger than Base Jiraiya right Turrin? You would have called me crazy. But now youre saying Sakura is stronger than Sage Jiraiya. I guess she can beat Pain with knowledge right? And has a50/50 chance to beat Itachi? Wel atleast you admitted Itachi>Jiraiya since you said Itachi or Sakura could win, but here you say that Sakura outright beats Jiraiya in pretty much any scenario. And what REALLY makes Sakura stronger than Tsunade? Because last I saw she was an exact copy of her with much less experience. You act as if Tsunade didn't have Byakugo.   And all I see for you saying Sakura is soooooo much stronger than Tsunade is making up she has more chakra control for your convenience, which was never stated. Is Tsunade as strong as EMS Sasuke and KCM Naruto too? And how is Kisame on the same level as Itachi? Oh cause you use some atatements and ignore others right?


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Here's where you loose me. Where was it indicated that Tsunade inherited the strong-body of the younger son? Hashirama was indicated to be special even among the Senju, so not everyone in the Senju clan is inheriting the physical energy of the younger son or at least not as strongly. In Tsunade's case she isn't even necessarily as tied to the Senju blood-line as random fodder-senju. Her grand-father was Hashirmaa, but we do not know what her mother was. If her mother was not a Senju, than she could easily take after her mother and not have inherited any of the Senju skills.



How do you know that only a few Senju inherited the strong body of the younger son when it was highlited that _Senjus inherited that body_, not 'some' Senjus.

And on top of that, even if it was like that, i think it's pretty clear that Tsunade has demostrated to have inherited such a powerful body while Sakura hasn't.


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> How do you know that only a few Senju inherited the strong body of the younger son when it was highlited that _Senjus inherited that body_, not 'some' Senjus.
> 
> And on top of that, even if it was like that, i think it's pretty clear that Tsunade has demostrated to have inherited such a powerful body while Sakura hasn't.



Where was it highlighted that Senju's all inherited the body to the same extent as Ashura/Hashirama. Obito says the Younger Brother inherited the body. Than goes on to say that as time went on the blood grew thinner and became the Senju. Than later on we learn that Hashirama specifically was Ashura's transmigrant. I don't see why we'd assume every Senju inherited the body to the same extent as Ashura's transmigrant. 

Tsunade hasn't demonstrated inheriting a strong body. Tsunade demonstrated that she is highly skilled medical Ninja with powerful regenerative Jutsu. Sakura however has mastered this same Jutsu, has vastly better chakra control, and vastly greater chakra supplies to fuel these regenerative techniques. 

If the author wanted us to think Tsunade inherited a body that's anywhere comparable to Hashirama, he would have highlighted it by now; instead he highlighted how Tsunade is not at all comparable to Hashirama and how Tsunade had to invent a master-class medical technique like byakugo just to get close to Hashirama's natural regenerative capabilities.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Where was it indicated that Tsunade inherited the strong body?



Hashirama was indicated to be special _because of his Mokuton Kekkei Genkai_ that was unique to him, not because his _physicality itself_ was was so far superior to everyone else's. _Tsunade's_ the one with the emphasized strength, durability, and resiliency, not him.

Anyway, my point is that it doesn't need to be explicitly stated. Let's not pretend that we absolutely require a direct statement before we can make a conclusion because we're otherwise restricted from using logic. If evidence is there it's there.

Tsunade having inherited the physical energy of the younger son _is self-evident_ in the fact that she's continued functioning through injuries that would instantly sideline (subcostal muscles severed) or outright kill (complete bifurcation) the vast majority of ninja, as well as the fact that she's got the natural strength to go slinging around skyscraper sized swords while laughing despite being more than twenty years out of practice _and_ shape.

Those traits seemed to come out of nowhere until the eye-body contrasting dynamic came into play. Honestly what other explanation is there besides the younger brother's heritage flowing rather strongly in her veins? It seems to me to be the obvious reason why she is so naturally tough.



> She is a medic.



_*So?*_

It only matters that she's a medic ninja _when she's actually used her medical Ninjutsu_, and she kept fighting _before_ she tried healing herself, so the feat has nothing to do with her medical ninja status.



> Sakura fought through explosive tag being detonated in her face.



It was detonated on her butt/thigh, not her face. Yet in spite of that...not a single witness found the explosive tag feat to be surprising in the sense that it was impressive, but rather in the sense that it was reckless.

The sword stab would have killed her right there were it not for Chiyo, she didn't fight through it, so that's not nearly as impressive as Tsunade has been either.



> Sakrua proceeded to deck Juubidara in the face.



It wasn't through her chest, it was through her kidney and that's a single stab compared to a stab through the heart, a slash across the torso, a slash into her side, _and_ the multiplicity of abrasions and internal lacerations dealt by Kabuto earlier on Tsunade's part when she decked Orochi before activating her regenerative technique.

So Tsunade's feat is still far more impressive.



> It was Gensis of Rebirth.



It was also highlighted to be a gamble even taking Sōzō Saisei into account. The question of _why_ that was we can answer for ourselves, as the technique was only activated _after_ the transfer had already happened.

If Tsunade hadn't been a physical beast _already_, she wouldn't have ever been able to regenerate in the first place because she'd have come out already dead on the other side (aka before the technique could become a real factor) like all but the Third had before.

Sakura has a comparatively normal body, so she'd be killed like everyone else was before she could even find the chance to activate her ability to regenerate, let alone for it to take effect before she succumbed to her wounds.



> Sakura has more chakra to fuel it with than Tsunade.



Even if I were to give you that (and I don't necessarily, as Sakura exhausted her Chakra like half a Shosen and tiny scalpel after Tsunade did, so the plot card is entirely valid here), Sakura is also less durable, meaning she will need to use more Chakra each time she's hit because the damage she sustains will be more severe.



> It was thanks to Gensis or Rebirth.



No it wasn't, it couldn't have been _because that wasn't even active when she first summoned_.



> I come away from it acknowledging Tsunade is a brilliant medic.



Meaning you neglect half of the event.

Her brilliance in medical Ninjutsu can only be realized because of how much of a monster she is.

I repeat, if she weren't a freak of nature already then she'd have come out of Tensō no Jutsu already dead before she even got the chance to regenerate, and if she weren't already a freak of nature she'd have died before she even got the opportunity to summon Katsuyu.

The medical Ninjutsu doesn't mean anything if you don't first off live long enough for it to take effect.



> *I think it's completely disingenuous* to argue based on Sakura's lowest end feats from hundreds of chapters ago.



Don't get me started on "disingenuous" after half of the crap you've been trying to pass off. (Namely desperately attributing resilience feats to techniques that have yet to be activated.)

Explain to me why those feats aren't applicable now, especially given how recent the rock to the face one is.

Otherwise this just sounds like a cheap cop out, because I don't see any significant difference between current Sakura and the Sasori-fight Sakura outside of Chakra capacity.



> Sakura is going to be completely bound by the hair before she can even bite her finger.



Yes.

Animal Realm only managed that feint because Jiraiya sat there interrogating him for a prolonged time; he has no incentive to do such a thing to Sakura, who is less familiar with Jiraiya's fighting style than Animal Realm is to begin with.



> Unless the hair completely binds even Sakura's fingers.



It can if need be. The hair just needs to envelop her hands, after which cutting herself would require first cutting through bundles of steel-tough material and I don't think her scalpel has proven to be able to do that to begin with...

Though I don't think that's going to be any faster than Jiraiya dismembering her.



> Sakura probably doesn't need to punch to Cherry Blossom impact.



Support that stance then if you expect me to adopt it. Right now everything points to the converse, considering that the principle behind the technique is the exact same regardless of how much Chakra she puts into it nowadays.

Even without the Byakugō no In completed Sakura's striking strength was still more than what would have been required to rip apart Sasori's roped kunai, but she didn't just rip out, and instead she endangered herself when she resorted to an explosive note out of desperation. Why do you think that was?

A common sense interpretation would be that it's because the technique fundamentally cannot be applied to anything besides impacts.



> Yomi Numa doesn't instantly cover the entire body.



It certainly isn't _gradual_ if that's what you're implying.

It pretty much blinks into existence, and it isn't just the opponent sinking- the technique has an active suction as evidenced by Jiraiya being able to use it on a ceiling without it dripping and Animal being able to swing off of a Human Realm that was stuck in it then. Sakura is also a lot smaller than the snake, and a Yomi Numa from a healthy Jiraiya is going to be larger with a more powerful suction than what the snake was faced with.

Sakura is going to be submerged before she even considers a summon, and once she's submerged she won't have the option any longer.



> The knock-back of CST is still beyond any attack that Jiriaya has.



Assuming that to be true such is mitigated by the fact that Tsunade's durability is also far beyond Sakura's, and CST is blunt force whereas Gamayu Endan is not.



> She used it on herself.



Based on what? It was stated that she poured her all her Chakra into Katsuyu, not that she used some for herself. She was putting the lives of her villagers first.



> Sakura won't have Katsuya out.



I didn't say she wouldn't.

Hiding in Katsuyu does nothing but give Jiraiya the chance to remove them both from the battle simultaneously with Yomi Numa. If Sakura wants so much as a chance to evade Yomi Numa she'll have to be standing on top of Katsuyu, but if she stays on top of Katsuyu Gamayu Endan can still hit her.



> She summons another.



Except Sakura is the one trying to cover her butt with the slug. Don't get the roles reversed. Jiraiya is getting rid of it in retaliation, meaning slug lass junior is the one really being hindered here.



> If we rinse and repeat, Sakura will also out-last him.



I wouldn't be too sure if I were you. Boss summoning is much more costly than casting an equivalent Yomi Numa, as evidenced by how large Jiraiya could make the technique when he wasn't even able to bring out a respectably sized toad (he called it tiny even at it's snake stopping size, which is in line with him summoning the tiny toad Gamakichi).

And intelligence isn't the same thing as versatility; it's not like she _can_ really do anything else even if she figures that what she _is_ doing isn't working.



> It will achieve keeping Jiriaya at bay until the smoke has cleared.



Funny how that Jūbling advanced _through the smoke_ to get to Sakura...



> Jiriaya has nothing that can harm her.



You say this knowing I disagree, as if repeating it is supposed to change my mind without you providing some measure of evidence to support it first...

Jiraiya can definitely kill Sakura regardless of Byakugō as far as I'm concerned right now.

The Katsuyu-monitoring is checked by Yomi Numa. _Hard_.



> Which is he after then?



Any one that lets him lose Sakura's attention to go set up something if the need arises.



> So he can maintain hold over her?



Sakura is no more a magical ninja than TenTen. It doesn't matter how much Chakra she has, Byakugō being able to delay the drowning for its duration would be inconsequential when Sakura cannot muster the physical strength required to get out of the swamp anyway.



> Given that his best feat is against a fodder.



That's irrelevant when Sakura's not as strong as that snake outside of striking power, which has nothing to do with escaping Yomi Numa.



> She pounds the ground and they are done.



Only if she actually catches them, which'll be easier said than done if they're focusing on defense/evasion in order to stall while the original is sneaking off to do whatever.



> If Katsuya is out she can protect Sakura as well



How does Katsuyu go about protecting Sakura while she's busy ground-pounding?



> She's also vastly superior as far as Chakra Control is concerned.



How is Sakura superior as far as Chakra control is concerned at all when her only Chakra control feats are replicating Tsunade's feats? 

Chakra control has nothing to do with Tsunade's lifting strength, durability, and resilience, though.


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## Kazekage94 (Aug 10, 2014)

Sakura loses this battle.


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Where was it highlighted that Senju's all inherited the body to the same extent as Ashura/Hashirama. Obito says the Younger Brother inherited the body. Than goes on to say that as time went on the blood grew thinner and became the Senju. Than later on we learn that Hashirama specifically was Ashura's transmigrant. I don't see why we'd assume every Senju inherited the body to the same extent as Ashura's transmigrant.
> 
> Tsunade hasn't demonstrated inheriting a strong body. Tsunade demonstrated that she is highly skilled medical Ninja with powerful regenerative Jutsu. Sakura however has mastered this same Jutsu, has vastly better chakra control, and vastly greater chakra supplies to fuel these regenerative techniques.
> 
> If the author wanted us to think Tsunade inherited a body that's anywhere comparable to Hashirama, he would have highlighted it by now; instead he highlighted how Tsunade is not at all comparable to Hashirama and how Tsunade had to invent a master-class medical technique like byakugo just to get close to Hashirama's natural regenerative capabilities.



Flamingrain answered this better than i would've done. But i think you are giving Tsunade's physical prowess to her healing skills, wich are two different things.


When she lifted Gamabunta's blade, she wasn't using medical ninjutsu. 
When she took Mabui's teleportation technique, she wasn't using any medical ninjutsu _until_ she reappeared.
When she moved and hit Orochimaru in the face after being stabbed and slashed multiple times, she wasn't using medical ninjutsu.
And when she summoned while bisected, she wasn't using any kind of healing either.

All those things are something that your average shinobi wouldn't do. Heck, Hashirama wouldn't even be able to lift Gamabunta's blade in the air without ninjutsu.

Those are clear indications of a strong and resilient body, something mentioned to be part of the Senju and Uzumaki lineage that even if not every Senju/Uzumaki has it, she proved to be one of those gifted with it because nothing of those examples were made using medical ninjutsu.


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Hashirama was indicated to be special _because of his Mokuton Kekkei Genkai_ that was unique to him, not because his _physicality itself_ was was so far superior to everyone else's. _Tsunade's_ the one with the emphasized strength, durability, and resiliency, not him.


Hashirama was Ashura's transmigrant. It makes little sense to compare the average Senju to Hashirama.



> Anyway, my point is that it doesn't need to be explicitly stated. Let's not pretend that we absolutely require a direct statement before we can make a conclusion because we're otherwise restricted from using logic. If evidence is there it's there.


Yes I need a direct statement to come to the conclusion that all Senju's inherit the physical energy of  Ashura as acutely as his transmigrant.



> Tsunade having inherited the physical energy of the younger son is self-evident in the fact that she's continued functioning through injuries that would instantly sideline (subcostal muscles severed) or outright (complete bifurcation) kill the vast majority of ninja, as well as the fact that she's got the natural strength to go slinging around skyscraper sized swords while laughing despite being more than twenty years out of practice and shape.


You know as well as I do, that in every single instance those feats are credit to Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu; not Hashirama being Tsunade's Grandfather.



> Those traits seemed to come out of nowhere until the eye-body contrasting dynamic came into play. Honestly what other explanation is there besides the younger brother's heritage flowing rather strongly in her veins? It seems to me to be the obvious reason why she is so naturally tough.


The explanation the manga gave; her medical ninjutsu. 

The reason Tsunade would never die in battle was credited to her medical ninjutsu:
Physical Power

The reason Tsunade can fight on the front lines is credited to her medical ninjutsu:

_Tsunade: It is a forbidden jutsu that only applies to me.
I am the only medic ninja allowed to do battle!!_



> It only matters that she's a medic ninja when she's actually used her medical Ninjutsu, and she kept fighting before she tried healing herself, so the feat has nothing to do with her medical ninja status.


Yeah she wasn't an ordinary person. But was it Senju lineage Kabuto cited; nope. It was her Fat-Breasts:
Physical Power



> It was detonated on her butt/thigh, not her face. Yet in spite of that...not a single witness found the explosive tag feat to be surprising in the sense that it was impressive, but rather in the sense that it was reckless.


It was considered reckless because it could cause other shinobi serious damage. 

Otherwise please show me other shinobi casually tanking an explosive tag at point blank range.



> The sword stab would have killed her right there were it not for Chiyo, she didn't fight through it, so that's not nearly as impressive as Tsunade has been either.


Sakura was fighting throughout it and healing herself, than the poison prevented her from molding chakra:
Physical Power

Tsunade did not get pierced with a poisoned blade, last time I checked, so no her performance is not better.



> It wasn't through her chest, it was through her kidney and that's a single stab compared to a stab through the heart, a slash across the torso, a slash into her side, and the multiplicity of abrasions and internal lacerations dealt by Kabuto earlier on Tsunade's part when she decked Orochi before activating her regenerative technique.


You make the argument about placement of the strikes, which I'd be willing to buy into, if Kishimoto had ever indicated that placement matters. But Kishimoto hasn't indicated being stabbed in the heart is any worse for a Byakugo users than being stabbed in other areas. In-fact he has indicated the exact opposite, when has it stated that Gensis or Rebirth regrows organs and Gensis of Rebirth as the reason why Tsunade survived Orochiamru's attack:

_Tsunade: What, It's Just I've been storing chakra in my forehead for many years with such a large amount of chakra I can stimulate all the proteins in my body and accelerate cell division to rebuild them. I can regenerate organs and limbs. It's not a recover ability, it's regeneration sfx:swp_

And Kishimoto highlights this again in DBIII:

_Tsunade, this is the ultimate regeneration technique!! By releasing a large amount of chakra at once, the body's cell division is forcibly stimulated, reconstruction all organs and all tissues making up the human body!
If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means... for the sake of continuing to protect the lives of one's comrades. That's the resolution hidden in this technique._

Kishi even cites that exact blow in the DB and credits Gensis or Rebirth for Tsunade surviving it:

_This wound may have brought her on the verge of death, but she won't die~~

[picture of the wound on Tsunade's shoulder healing]
↑↓The acceleration of cell division that allows for the complete recovery from wounds is paid for with the shortening of one's life span.
[picture of the wound on Tsunade's chest healing]_

However in the case of Gododama staff, it actually erases the effects of Ninjutsu, meaning the whole time it was inside Sakura, erasing her internal organs, she couldn't heal those areas, yet she kept fighting. 



> It was also highlighted to be a gamble even taking Sōzō Saisei into account. The question of why that was we can answer for ourselves, as the technique was only activated after the transfer had already happened.
> 
> If Tsunade hadn't been a physical beast already, she wouldn't have ever been able to regenerate in the first place because she'd have come out already dead on the other side (aka before the technique could become a real factor) like all but the Third had before.


I fail to see the point your making. Mabui and company tell Tsunade she'll be shreded if she transports. Tsunade says she will be able to survive thanks to Gensis of Rebirth [note: you can also use a certain degree of byakugo-healing w/o releasing the seal]. She is shredded when she transports and than uses Gensis or Rebirth to survive said shredding. No where is Tsunade's durability is credit with any part of the feat. 

As for the gamble aspect, of course it's a gamble, because the only man who ever attempted it was Sandaime-Raikage. You know the guy capable of tanking FRS (and likely Bijuudama's). Given that, there was now way to measure how much damage the technique really did to the body. It could be like being hit by FRS constantly, and Sandaime-Raikage would still be okay. So it's a gamble because if the damage it caused was too great Tsunade and Ei would have died. That was not the case however, and in actuality it just shredded Tsunade's body a bit.



> Even if I were to give you that (and I don't necessarily, as Sakura exhausted her Chakra like half a Shosen and tiny scalpel after Tsunade did, so the plot card is entirely valid here),


Sakura was healing the alliance at mass long before Tsunade showed up. Additionally after the scene your citing Sakura went on to use Byakugo more and super charge Obito's S-T Jutsu to near the level of Kaguya's dimension crossing abilities. And she still has chakra left over in her seal, as it hasn't faded yet. 

Heck the manga even directly tells us Sakura can store more chakra because she doesn't have to retain her youth; and she did so for 3 Years, while Tsunade would have only had until the Pain-Arc to store chakra. Than there is Sakura's vastly superior chakra-control.



> Sakura is also less durable


Nether Tsunade nor Sakura have been highlighted for their durability; it's always been their regeneration allowing them to survive.



> meaning she will need to use more Chakra each time she's hit because the damage she sustains will be more severe.


She could use double the amount of chakra for each heal than Tsunade and still out-last Tsunade by a huge margin. However given that her chakra control is vastly superior to Tsunade's and nothing indicates Tsunade's durability is much higher, if at all, this doesn't add up to start with.



> No it wasn't, it couldn't have been because that wasn't even active when she first summoned.


You do realize that Sakura and Tsunade can use remote healing via the Byakugo seal through Katsuya w/o the Byakugo-Seal taking on the Gensis of Rebirth or Byakugo formation, right?

Physical Power
Physical Power
Physical Power



> The medical Ninjutsu doesn't mean anything if you don't first off live long enough for it to take effect.


Yet the author consistently places all the credit with the medical ninjutsu and none of the credit with Tsunade's durability. So i'm going to half to say no.


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2014)

> Don't get me started on "disingenuous" after half of the crap you've been trying to pass off. (Namely desperately attributing resilience feats to techniques that have yet to be activated.)


Dude take it up with the author. He's the one who point blank attributes Tsunade's "feats" to these techniques in both the manga and the DB.



> Explain to me why those feats aren't applicable now, especially given how recent the rock to the face one is.


You might as well say explain to me why Kabuto round house kicking Start of PII Naruto isn't still applicable to BM-Naruto. 



> Otherwise this just sounds like a cheap cop out, because I don't see any significant difference between current Sakura and the Sasori-fight Sakura outside of Chakra capacity


We can debate author's intent sometimes, but the author's intent is so clearly not this, that I can't believe that you think this is what Kishimoto is going for. You know this wrong and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.



> Yes.


Jiriaya's hair would have to cross the distance between Jiriaya and Sakura, blitz her, and than meticulously bind each of Sakura's fingers, before she could even move. I think you have Jiriaya mixed up with Kaguya, as Kaguya is the only one would have a chance of pulling that shit off.



> Animal Realm only managed that feint because Jiraiya sat there interrogating him for a prolonged time; he has no incentive to do such a thing to Sakura


Where was it indicated that Jiriaya taking time to interrogate Animal-Realm, was the only reason Animal-Realm was able to Kwarimi away? Can I get the panel or scan where that was stated or implied?



> who is less familiar with Jiraiya's fighting style than Animal Realm is to begin with.


How is a straight forward hair attack is hard to read through?



> It can if need be. The hair just needs to envelop her hands, after which cutting herself would require first cutting through bundles of steel-tough material and I don't think her scalpel has proven to be able to do that to begin with...


Which it's not fast enough to do, before Sakura can draw a bit of blood or create a shockwave with her punch.



> Though I don't think that's going to be any faster than Jiraiya dismembering her


Jiriaya can dismember her if she wants, but she'll just regrow everything with Byakugo. This is assuming Jiriaya catches her though, which is never going to happen.



> Support that stance then if you expect me to adopt it. Right now everything points to the converse, considering that the principle behind the technique is the exact same regardless of how much Chakra she puts into it nowadays.


After reading DBIII again I'll admit that I was wrong about this one, as it says the chakra needs to be propagated through an impact. However I noticed something interest, where it says that the chakra can also be propagated through ones finger tips. So Sakura could just extend her fingers to touch the hair and blow it away as if it was nothing. 

DBIII, "it's also possible for an expert shinobi to collect it into their fingertips."



> It certainly isn't gradual if that's what you're implying.
> 
> It pretty much blinks into existence, and it isn't just the opponent sinking- the technique has an active suction as evidenced by Jiraiya being able to use it on a ceiling without it dripping and Animal being able to swing off of a Human Realm that was stuck in it then. Sakura is also a lot smaller than the snake, and a Yomi Numa from a healthy Jiraiya is going to be larger with a more powerful suction than what the snake was faced with.


It does not have a suction effect. It has an adhesive effect:

"The adhesive, chakra-infused mud ensnares the enemy's body"

And it is specifically highlighted as a sinking technique:

"The more you struggle, the more you sink
A bottomless swamp from Hell!!

By changing the ground into mud and creating a swamp, the enemy is sunk deep underground...!! "

So it's the adhesive chakra that allows Yomi-Numa to cling to the wall. It's also the adhesive chakra that prevents someone from physical breaking free. But there is no suction effect, the target simply sinks. And that gives Sakura more than enough time to summon.



> Assuming that to be true such is mitigated by the fact that Tsunade's durability


Which is completely unsubstantiated.



> is also far beyond Sakura's, and CST is blunt force whereas Gamayu Endan is not.


We saw Byakugo deal with burn damage before:
Physical Power
Physical Power

And Obito even says that Byakugo can deal with damage from Acid eating away the person's flesh.



> Based on what? It was stated that she poured her all her Chakra into Katsuyu, not that she used some for herself. She was putting the lives of her villagers first.


Common sense. Tsunade has never been shown to tank anything like the shock-wave of CST w/o regeneration. 

Also FYI the Anbu and Tsunade herself are all people in the village. The scene is meant to show that she used all her chakra up to save everyone's lives including her own:

Anbu: She mustve already released her Souzousaisei technique and transferred all of her chakra to Katsuyu

このペインの術から里の人々を守るために。。。
Anbu: In order to protect the people in the village from Peins technique



> I didn't say she wouldn't.
> 
> Hiding in Katsuyu does nothing but give Jiraiya the chance to remove them both from the battle simultaneously with Yomi Numa. If Sakura wants so much as a chance to evade Yomi Numa she'll have to be standing on top of Katsuyu, but if she stays on top of Katsuyu Gamayu Endan can still hit her.


So she can't just change her position in response to what Jiriaya is doing.

I also doubt Base-Jiriaya's Yomi Numa is stopping whatever absurd portion of Katsuya Sakura can summon.



> Except Sakura is the one trying to cover her butt with the slug. Don't get the roles reversed. Jiraiya is getting rid of it in retaliation, meaning slug lass junior is the one really being hindered here.


Except she has greater chakra supplies, so if we play this game out to it's conclusion Jiriaya looses. So actually she is advantaged by Jiriaya continuing to use this tactic.



> I wouldn't be too sure if I were you. Boss summoning is much more costly than casting an equivalent Yomi Numa, as evidenced by how large Jiraiya could make the technique when he wasn't even able to bring out a respectably sized toad (he called it tiny even at it's snake stopping size, which is in line with him summoning the tiny toad Gamakichi).


Yes and the drugged-Swamp wouldn't work on Boss-Sized Katsuya. So he'd need to use an extremely large one. Which probably takes up close to the amount of chakra as a boss summoning. Maybe it takes up less, but not so significantly less that he is going to be out-lasting someone with their own normal supply of chakra and a 3-Year supply of chakra as well.



> And intelligence isn't the same thing as versatility; it's not like she can really do anything else even if she figures that what she is doing isn't working.


The versatility argument is extremely biased in this instance, because current Sakura has had all of a few panels to fight, versus Jiriaya who has had tons. So of course he's shown more versatility. 

With that aside yes she can do something about it. It's called summoning out a more powerful Katsuya that will muscle through the swap.



> Funny how that Jūbling advanced through the smoke to get to Sakura...


The Juubling is one out of hundreds. This matters a great deal, because most of the other dozens of Juublings met their end from Sakura's punch. So that gives Jiriaya extremely low odds of being in the right place at the right time to survive Sakura's punch and attack her like the Juubiling.

Additionally Sakura actually did notice the Juubling in time, and really all that would have happened  if Sasuke/Naruto didn't step in is she'd be forced to use Byakugo or Kuchiyose Katsuya to save herself rather than her being defeated.



> You say this knowing I disagree, as if repeating it is supposed to change my mind without you providing some measure of evidence to support it first...
> 
> Jiraiya can definitely kill Sakura regardless of Byakugō as far as I'm concerned right now.
> 
> The Katsuyu-monitoring is checked by Yomi Numa. Hard.


I just feel this is self explanatory given Byakugo's feats and stated abilities. It can regrow organs or even limbs. Tsunade felt confident that it would prevent the user from dying in battle and she knows all of Jiriaya's Base capabilities, as well as the capabilities of many other Ninja. It's allowed Sakura and Tsunade to survive more crippling blows than anything Base-Jiriaya can dish out (or even Sennin Modo Jiriaya for that matter). 



> Any one that lets him lose Sakura's attention to go set up something if the need arises.


What shadow can Jiriaya chase down that will make Sakura loose attention, other than Sakura's shadow?


----------



## Turrin (Aug 10, 2014)

> Sakura is no more a magical ninja than TenTen. It doesn't matter how much Chakra she has, Byakugō being able to delay the drowning for its duration would be inconsequential when Sakura cannot muster the physical strength required to get out of the swamp anyway.


Actually I just thought of something. Jiriaya himself has to hold his breath for the duration of his Shadow-Technique. So if he is drowning Sakura it simply becomes a contest of who can hold their breath the longest, in which case Sakura wins, due to Byakugo.



> That's irrelevant when Sakura's not as strong as that snake outside of striking power, which has nothing to do with escaping Yomi Numa.


Yomi Numa, huh? We were talking about the Shadow-Technique Jiriaya uses.



> Only if she actually catches them, which'll be easier said than done if they're focusing on defense/evasion in order to stall while the original is sneaking off to do whatever.


She doesn't have to catch them at all. All she needs to do is pound the ground and the shock-wave will disperse them all.



> How does Katsuyu go about protecting Sakura while she's busy ground-pounding?


I don't understand the problem...Katsuya can cling to Sakura's body. She can keep a distance from the ground pound, but stay with in range to protect her. She can ward off attacks with long-range Acid. She can withstand the ground pound if she has to given her tanking of CST. 



> ow is Sakura superior as far as Chakra control is concerned at all when her only Chakra control feats are replicating Tsunade's feats?


Easy. Tsunade is physical stronger than Sakura. Yet Sakura's striking force is well beyond Tsunade's. If Sakura hasn't magically become as physically strong as Tsunade it's her chakra control that is making the difference in her striking force, which means her chakra control is better.

To put it simply. 

If Tsunade's strength = 60
And Tsunade's Chakra control = 100

The total striking force is 160

If Sakura's Striking force is 180, and we know Sakura's physical strength is lower than Tsunade's, let's say a 30 comparatively, than we are left with the equation:

Chakra Control + 30 = 180

Which means chakra control has to be much higher than Tsunade's to make up the difference.



> Chakra control has nothing to do with Tsunade's lifting strength, durability, and resilience, though.


Durability and Resilience all have to with medical ninjutsu, which Sakura is better at now with superior chakra control and has more chakra to fuel her techniques. 

Lifting strength Tsunade is still better than Sakura at.


----------



## KyuubiYondaime (Aug 10, 2014)

So Turrin, can Sakura beat Kakashi too?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 10, 2014)

Turrin, I'm only going to respond to these points one-post at a time, so expect the rest of my reply later on.



Turrin said:


> Hashi.



Hashirama being Asura's transmigrant doesn't translate into him being physically superior to every other Senju, only superior overall (hence the Kekkai Genkai with special Tailed Beast taming properties and all that jazz), namely because the transmigrant detail isn't linked nor limited to to the strong-body one.

Naruto is Asura's transmigrant as well, yet he isn't even a Senju nor particularly gifted physically at his base mode when standing next to Tsunade (the number of people that are is close to zero, quite honestly).



> Direct.



Saying "yes I do" is not a refutation to the claim that it's been made obvious enough by seeing the lady casually sling around building sized swords and surviving get in split in half that such a statement shouldn't be required.



> Credit to.



I'm seriously questioning whether or not I should even bother trying to debate you if you believe that Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu had any bearing on her ability to move around _*before* she even used the dang Jutsu_, but here I go anyways.

I'll lay it out one last time:

Tsunade's biceps brachii, rectus femoris, and intercostal muscles got severed, then she got up off of her knees, leapt behind him, and smacked him in the back of the neck in the time it took him to adjust his glasses. Following this, after Kabuto realizes that his body has stopped responding correctly she punches him again.

It is only _after all of this_ that she even attempts to heal herself. Therefore, it is *only* after that point that her medical Ninjutsu had any effect on her person, and at every point prior her technique subsequently receives absolutely zero credit for the feat.

There is no way you can attribute her resilience to her medical techniques while adhering to the true sequence of events, and the same applies to the Tensō no Jutsu and bifurcation feats in the war. If you sincerely can't understand that (and I _think_ you can but just choose not to in order to avoid concession) then I can't help you, because you're too unintelligent for me to reason with.

The tantō feat was lifting achievement, not a striking one, so it was out-of-shape Tsunade's _natural_ strength, not her medical Ninjutsu strength.



> Die.



Well yeah, if Tsunade weren't able to heal/regenerate she would _eventually_ succumb to injuries like being split in half, but that doesn't detract from the fact that her techniques can only take effect if she first survives an attack long enough for it to work.

It's analogous to how Kushina was going to _eventually_ die from having the Nine Tails ripped out of her. It doesn't make it any less impressive that she stayed alive for as long as she did in an event that would have meant instant-death for another more normal host.

If you take away the _natural_ durability and resilience components, Sōzō Saisei would have never been activated after Tensō no Jutsu because Tsunade would have already been dead, and Katsuyu would have never even been summoned because Tsunade would have been dead prior.

But she wasn't dead yet, and her techniques _weren't activated until after the fact_, so it wasn't due to those either.

The mandate for natural survivability to give the regeneration Jutsu a chance to operate in such dire instances is there irregardless of your attempts to distance Tsunade from the younger brother's strong body, because it's obvious she still has a strong body nonetheless.

Sakura is comparatively normal, though. She'd have come out of Tensō no Jutsu already dead because she isn't particularly durable, and been killed by that bifurcation occurrence because she isn't very naturally resilient.



> Breasts.



Why don't we let Tsunade speak for herself:

*"Ungh! He got my intercostal muscles. Can't breathe..."​*
It's within a thought bubble as opposed to a speech bubble, so she was noting it to herself mentally and not to Kabuto, meaning she had zero incentive to lie.

Kabuto _did_ hit his target; he just questioned whether or not her breasts prevented him from doing it because he didn't know she was that resilient beforehand, and without knowledge of that (and without mind-reading powers to hear her very own thoughts) her breasts were the only remaining explanation from _his_ first-person perspective.

We know he was wrong because the scene was written in a third-person omniscient point of view.

So, the simplest answer as to where this resilience comes from? Her Senju/Uzumaki ancestry.



> Reckless.



Chiyo, looking at Sakura as she tries to regain her composure:

_*"Oh, this girl. Using a letter bomb to dissipate the gas...She nearly blew herself up along with the trap...How reckless..."​*_
It had nothing to do with whether or not other ninja would have been injured, it was considered dangerous because of how much of a threat it was observed to be to her own person after she did it.

And it like a hundred tightly braced right up against the skin to blast apart Hidan after he'd already jumped into Atsugai blasts prior. That leads me to believe other ninja can casually tank a single one. Consider also that Sakura's tag was a couple inches out from her thigh/butt, in other words no further away than the upper strings of notes were to Hidan's head which took no more damage than Sakura's whole body did....so yeah....



> Sakura.



Chiyo gave her an antidote, though, negating the poison's effect. Sakura only managed to hold on to a sword for a bit before she fell, then Sasori tried attacking Chiyo and got caught in her trap.

Sakura fought through that injury neither as long nor as extensively as Tsunade fought through the piercing through her heart, slashes across her shoulder and side, and severed muscle systems.

So yes Tsunade's performance is better by a rather wide margin.



> Kishi.



It doesn't matter, because I'm talking about natural resilience independent of Byakugō. Tsunade had also sustained a greater number of stabs, slashes, and cuts too, so her feat's more impressive even still.

I mean, I would agree that Sakura's at least resilient enough that, if Byakugō is active and the object impaling her is removed hastily enough, she could survive a stab to the heart because I think the technique works fast enough for that. 

What I'm disagreeing with is her ability to survive injuries such as bifurcation, because those should kill _her_ not just quickly but _immediately_, logically disallowing Byakugō to save her.



> Verge of.



This only strengthens _my_ point. The technique can only bring someone back from the _verge of_ death at the most, it cannot bring them back from death itself. If a wound were to outright kill the user, and not just bring them to the verge of death, the regeneration couldn't do anything as it would already be too late.



> Staff.



I don't contest this point. I can say, though, that even if it didn't have the effect of erasing Ninjutsu, Byakugō couldn't have healed her because of the rod taking up the space that needs to regenerate anyway. That would only shed more light on the disparity between Tsunade and Sakura though, because leaping around with multiple Susano'o waist-wide swords still inside you is better than leaping around with just a rod inside you.



> Point.



_Since when can you use a certain degree of regeneration without releasing the seal!?_

You're dancing _just_ around my point without quite hitting it.

The damage was too great for ordinary shinobi so much so that it turned them into ribbons before they reached the other side.

That's you're line for typical durability.

Tsunade only received peripheral, minor wounds though, as opposed to being turned into ribbons and paste by the jump to light-speed. That inherently _has to mean_ that she's exceptionally durable unlike everyone else who went through the Jutsu and got killed by it, even if not _quite_ as exceptionally durable as someone like Ay.

The wounds we saw on her weren't fatal; her regeneration just got rid of them because there was no reason to sustain them when she didn't need to.



> Sakura.



I'm familiar with her feats. They're irrelevant to my point that half of them come after Sakura said she'd virtually run out of Chakra for Jutsu, making obvious PIS obvious.



> Chakra.



It says Sakura doesn't have to expend any retaining her youth, not that she can store more. There is a difference.

Tsunade also has naturally higher base reserves, so she could conceivably pump her seal to full a lot quicker than Sakura (It was probably full by the time the Invasion of Pain came around, I'd think. The invasion was only a few weeks before the war at most, and Tsunade had her seal since returning to the village, which was before she started training Sakura anyway.)



> Outlast.



I doubt it.

I mean let's look at it this way: When Naruto asked Tsunade about using the regeneration technique after Tensō no Jutsu she replied that she was fine because she only used it on herself and her wounds weren't nearly as bad as what she was dealing with in the Invasion of Pain. 

There we saw Katsuyu trying to restore completely incapacitated ninja, and Tsunade was pumping out so much Chakra the aura was visible.

Meanwhile Sakura's first mass healing feat was only seen alleviating things like small cuts and indiscernible amounts of fatigue on ninja who were all still conscious, and on top of that no similar aura is visible.

It seems like Tsunade had the more demanding experience to me, which makes her feat look more impressive before CST slammed into everything and forced her to unlock the seal to siphon all of her Chakra out to Katsuyu again. So I think if a legitimately fresh Tsunade (not just one who stocked up on Karin juice) were in Sakura's position she could have easily replicated Sakura's stamina feats up to the point where Sakura first began to run dry on Chakra.

I also wasn't so impressed by the dimension connecting feat that I think it amounts to healing villages worth of people twice over. Maybe I missed a detail or something but I don't think I did, and that's past the point of PIS anyway.



> Realize.



Check the data-book. That formation is the result of the seal being unlocked, not the result of Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu being activated.

I also don't see why the Chakra transfer technique can't be used with their base reserves first or instead when they feel like it either.



> Yet.



That's a lie.


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Hashirama being Asura's transmigrant


The one thing Kishimoto high-lighted about Ashura was his physical energy and strength of body (not Mokuton or Bijuu suppression powers). It follows that his transmigrant would inherit this more than fodder-senju. Now if you want to give me a page that says every Senju inherited Ashura's physical energy and strength of body just as strongly as Hashirama, i'll cast this common sense aside, but until then I think it's extremely clear what Kishimoto is going for here.



> Naruto is Asura's transmigrant as well,


Except Naruto's strength of body and chakra (almost certainly due to his physical energy) were indicated to be special. The very fact that he was able to withstand KN4 and above Kyuubi-transformations was stated by Yamato to be a testament to that.



> by seeing the lady casually sling around building sized swords and surviving get in split in half that such a statement shouldn't be required.


And when exactly was it stated that you need Hashirama/Ashura "level" physical energy to become as physical strong as Tsunade or as good of a medic as Tsunade?



> I'll lay it out one last time:


Here's the thing, I don't think you understand. In the Naruto-Manga Shinobi don't tend to die right away from fatal wounds. Zabuza is not a Senju and he did not die right away despite having tons of weapons stabbed through him all over his body. Just like Sasuke after being stabbed in the heart by Madara didn't die right away ether. Hiruzen survived the Ksunagi sword being jammed through him and twisted inside of him for an extended duration of time. Minato survived having the Kyuubi-Claw pierce through his body for a certain period of time. You don't need to have Senju-Hashirama or Ashura's body energy to do it; any Ninja that Kishimoto feels is relative high "level" can last long enough where if they had Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu they would be able to ultimately survive these types of wounds.

Sakura is no different in that regard as she survived Juubidara's Gododama staff being stabbed through her for an extended period of time; and even before that Sasori's sword (if not for the poison)

In Tsunade's case against Kabuto they weren't even attacks aimed at being fatal and her fat-breasts helped her escape some of the damage. So it wasn't even as bad as the cited instances above.



> Why don't we let Tsunade speak for herself:


Nothing there contradicts what I said. Kabuto hit her muscle, but he didn't do as much damage as he intended to do, because of her fat breasts; not because she has some magical Senju-Body.



> Chiyo, looking at Sakura as she tries to regain her composure


No where does that statement say that doing something like detonating an explosive tag at point blank range would only be reckless for Sakura. Sakura is the topic of the sentence, because Sakura was the one who just did the reckless action.



> Hidan


Hidan has a technique that specifically grants him an immortal body, so I see no reason to consider him representative of the norm.



> Chiyo gave her an antidote,


Chiyo gave her the antidote after the poison had already prevented her from healing herself for an extended period of time; a long period of time than Tsunade waited after having the sword stabbed through her by Orochimaru, before using Gensis of Rebirth. And even after Chiyo administered the antidote Sakura did not heal herself, because of her concern for Chiyo who was being attacked by Sasori. It was literally 11 pages from the time Sakura was stabbed in a vital area, until the time she collapsed (yet was still conscious) on the ground. Tsunade herself was collapsed on the ground (10 pages later) when she used Gensis of Rebirth to recover from Orochimaru attacks. Both instances are extremely similar, except Sakura unlike Tsunade did not have Gensis of Rebirth, but if she did like Tsunade she would have survived. And in Tsunade's case it wasn't even highlighted that Orochimaru hit a vital area; and this is compare Tsunade to SPII-Sakura, let alone current Sakura.

So no I'm not seeing this astounding difference that Senju ancestry is suppose to afford Tsunade.



> Tsunade had also sustained a greater number of stabs, slashes, and cuts too, so her feat's more impressive even still.


You mean Orochimaru hit her more times in non vital areas. Again Shinobi tank that sort of stuff all the time. Sakura had an explosive note blown up point blank in her face and than got slashed up by Satetsu, and she was fine. She was also pierced by Sasori harpoon beore being stabbed.

Ether way it's not making a difference in the grand-scheme of things. Sakura like Tsunade would have survived long enough to use Gensis or Rebirth to regenerate, if she was in Tsunade's situation, just like Tsunade could do so in Sakura's situation. 



> If a wound were to outright kill the user,


Sure, but as previously discussed high level shinobi can tank a shit ton w/o dying right away.



> because leaping around with multiple Susano'o waist


Actually no it's not the same. When swords take up space the regeneration can still be occurring within the areas that are touching the sword. However whatever Gododama touches has the Ninjutsu effects erased entirely. Since the Gododama staff was touching Sakura's body, her Byakugo was rendered completely useless. As oppose to Tsunade who was still able to use Byakugo to heal her body when she had the two swords stuck into her.



> Since when can you use a certain degree of regeneration


I literally showed you the pages, where Sakura does so. I don't know how much clearer I can make it than that.



> The damage was too great for ordinary shinobi so much so that it turned them into ribbons before they reached the other sid


Ordinary Shinobi are the nameless fodder that die from anything. Just because they are turned to ribbons doesn't mean even named-chuunin would be torn apart by the same thing. Mabui and company never established a good gauge for us. They said Sandaime-Raikage survived and some nameless-fodder got torn up. There is tons of room in-between those two extremes. So we can't assert Tsunade not being ripped apart is due to her having Senju-body powers; all we can assert is that she is better than nameless-fodder; just like any other named character ever.

Of course I'd give this "feat" more credence if Kishimoto indicated she was not torn apart due to her body's durability, but sadly he never stated that one; and instead focus on Gensis or Rebirth being the reason.



> They're irrelevant to my point that half of them come after Sakura said she'd virtually run out of Chakra for Jutsu, making obvious PIS obvious.


In the good translation Sakura never said she was out of chakra:

saku: to be honest… It would be better if… tsunade-sama… shizune-senpai and I…\\
saku: stop using medical techniques and begin to fight\\

This oppose to the bad translation that has Sakura say she can't use medical Ninjutsu anymore and than proceed to use medical ninjutsu in the same fucking chapter.

In-fact it's Tsunade who runs out of chakra in that chapter.

And regardless of this fault translation. PIS is no reason to ignore Sakura being given these feats. If Kishi retecon's Sakura's chakra supply so she has 10x her chakra supply again next chapter, we just have to role with that as the new standard for Sakura, not disregard it because it's stupid; as half the shit that happens in this arc is stupid.



> t says Sakura doesn't have to expend any retaining her youth, not that she can store more. There is a difference


Why would that be brought up if it made no difference...i'm begging you to consider how story-telling works.



> Tsunade also has naturally higher base reserves,


Where was Tsunade stated to have higher base reserves than current-Sakura?



> he invasion was only a few weeks before the war at most, and Tsunade had her seal since returning to the village, which was before she started training Sakura anyway.)


She used up her entire seal in the Orochimaru fight. The Sasuke rescue arc happened a few days after Tsunade's return. She started training Sakura right after the events of that arc, which transpired over a few days. 

And I don't know how your measuring the time between the Pain-Arc and Warc-Arc as a few weeks. 




> I doubt it.


Really dude just really....

Tsunade aura was showing, because she was doing a different type of ritual that required the help of several Anbu and a Jutsu formula. It wasn't on the fly remote healing.

As for level of damage Sakura was healing Shinobi that were fighting against Shinobi that would destroy Pain zero diff, so that alone should tell you the difference. Just because she was only healing lesser injuries in certain panels, we should not ignore the scope of the battle; just like i'm not ignoring the scope of the battle Tsunade was healing even though there are panels where her Katsuya are shown only healing minor injuries as well. 

Ultimately Sakura provided remote healing in a higher level battle and for more people. Than she used other techniques on-top of that. Than she super charged Obito's S-T Jutsu to Kaguya like levels several times, and still her seal is not fully depleted. 

On the flip side of this Tsunade's remote healing alone depleted her seal completely and put her into a coma.



> I also wasn't so impressed by the dimension connecting feat that I think it amounts to healing villages worth of people twice over


Obviously you missed the fact that Obito considered connecting such a far away dimensions an incredible feat of chakra supply, and this is the dude that was once the dam JuubiJinchuuriki and even before that seemed as if he had a near limitless supply.



> Check the data-book. That formation is the result of the seal being unlocked, not the result of Sōzō Saisei/Byakugō no Jutsu being activated.


Pretty sure that's what I said



> hat's a lie.


I don't appreciate being called a liar, when in every instance you've brought forth I've shown where the author has had it directly stated that medical ninjutsu is the reason for Tsunade's survival. While on the other hand despite me repeatedly asking you to provide any statement indicating Tsunade has inherit Senju-Hashirama/Ashura Body power/physical energy or even that Tsunade survived thanks to her durability in any of these instance, and you can't provide it at all. 

People in glass houses should not throw such big stones.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Dude take it up with the author.



Here you go again nonsensically repeating that the author's supposedly disagreeing with me without even a kindergarden level understanding of sequential order, which is fundamental to discerning what can and cannot be attributed to what.



> You might as well say explain to me why Kabuto round house kicking Start of PII Naruto isn't still applicable to BM-Naruto.



Gladly.

Because much unlike Sakura, we saw Naruto honing his close-combat skills prior to the Invasion of Pain at Mount Myōboku with a mode that was demonstrated to directly increase durability and threat perception whilst allowing for ghost punches. From there he developed the Nine Tails Chakra and Tailed Beast modes that also increase durability, allow him to manifest a multitude of additional appendages, grant the ability to sense malice, etc. Nevermind the advancements he's made with techniques like the Rasengan.

Sakura's most impressive showings remained within the Kazekage Rescue Arc because all she did outside of that was mess up or get knocked out (Kabuto's butt, Kn4's tail, Karui and Omoi combo, Sasuke using Attract like she's a Pokmon or something, etc.). Now in this war she has yet to showcase any increase in her durability and her best resilience feat is gritting her teeth through a single stab to the kidney, which is just _barely_ a step up from the beginning of Part 2.

So again I ask you, Turrin, why exactly are her earlier displays inapplicable?



> We can debate author's intent sometimes, but the author's intent is so clearly not this, that I can't believe that you think this is what Kishimoto is going for. You know this wrong and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.



Funnily enough from my end this all applies to you, not me.



> Jiriaya's hair would have to cross the distance between Jiriaya and Sakura, blitz her, and than meticulously bind each of Sakura's fingers, before she could even move.



Sakura's not shown to be any more reflexive than Konan or Animal Realm, two people who also boast familiarity with Jiraiya over her.

He needn't meticulously bind each and every one of her fingers either, he just needs to clump up his hair around her whole hands and hold tight because if they're held together she can't maneuver them to cut anything.



> Where was it indicated that Jiriaya taking time to interrogate Animal-Realm, was the only reason Animal-Realm was able to Kwarimi away? Can I get the panel or scan where that was stated or implied?



Oh heck no. _You_ tell _me_ where it was indicated that this _wasn't_ the case.

That's your job, because you're the one asserting that because Animal could Kawarimi out of it Sakura will be able to summon. You don't get to conveniently neglect the fact that Animal had a much larger window of opportunity to set up the substitute than Sakura will have here in all of that.



> How is a straight forward hair attack is hard to read through?



Well for starters it requires no muscle tension/significant use of body dynamics or the like for Sakura to read into. She won't know which ropes of hair are going to go where based on Jiraiya's finger movements or anything like she did after she'd been fighting Sasori for a period of time.



> Which it's not fast enough to do.



Your reasoning being?



> Jiriaya can dismember her if she wants, but she'll just regrow everything with Byakugo.



She won't be regrowing anything because she'll already be dead. The extent to which Byakugō can be used is dependent upon the natural survivability of the user, the only thing the amount of Chakra can change is the duration for which it can be used.

This isn't a matter of who can last longer to begin with, though.



> Sakura could just extend her fingers to touch the hair and blow it away as if it was nothing.



The hair will have bound her up, meaning it will already be in contact with her fingers, so she can't extend anything because there still won't be a moment of impact.



> It does not have a suction effect.



Sinking in he context of a technique relating to the earth would simply mean "to become submerged", not "gradually decrease or decline".

Yomi Numa having an active suction is supported by the instance with Human realm who was getting pulled in deeper even when it was cast on a ceiling. The submerging aspect is clearly not reliant upon gravity. Both times the technique was used the victim was shown to be immediately pulled into it. There's been no attention to the sinking being a gradual effect that would grant Sakura a timeframe to reliably notice she's sinking and then summon within it, _especially_ when she has no knowledge and may well simply try to struggle out of it first.



> We saw Byakugo deal with burn damage before.



I never claimed Byakugō couldn't heal burn damage. I'm claiming Sakura wouldn't even survive an attack of that magnitude in order for it to heal her.



> Common sense. Tsunade has never been shown to tank anything like the shock-wave of CST w/o regeneration.





Unless the event in question _is that very showing_, which your statement does nothing to actually disprove as she's not been "shown" to tank anything like that _with_ regeneration either until you can prove that she used the technique on herself and not entirely on the villagers.

You're the one claiming a positive here.



> Also FYI the Anbu and Tsunade herself are all people in the village. The scene is meant to show that she used all her chakra up to save everyone's lives including her own:



Real common sense to Turrin. Stop pretending to be psychic because you're not good at it. At all.

Tsunade had already instructed Katsuyu prior to attach herself to all the ninjas and everybody else in the village, so when the Anbu says she unleashed the mark and transferred her Chakra to protect "the people in the village", he's naturally referring to _everyone else Katsuyu was surrounding, since it's through Katsuyu that Tsunade transfers her Chakra_.

The Anbu never said she used some of it on herself and transferred the rest, and obviously she wasn't among those who had Chakra transferred to them because you don't transfer something to yourself.

What the reader actually paying attention would notice that the scene is meant to show is that Tsunade prioritized the lives of the villagers above her own, that such is the kind of sacrificial love she has for her people.



> So she can't just change her position in response to what Jiriaya is doing.



Not beneficially. If Katsuyu absorbs her to defend from the blast Jiraiya can just dark swamp her after that. If she's already inside Katsuyu she won't know about the dark swamp until she and her giant slug have already been swallowed up.



> I also doubt Base-Jiriaya's Yomi Numa is stopping whatever absurd portion of Katsuya Sakura can summon.



Well I don't, so...



> Maybe it takes up less, but not so significantly less that he is going to be out-lasting someone with their own normal supply of chakra and a 3-Year supply of chakra as well.



The disparity in scale between the "tiny" swamp and the tiny toad Jiraiya could summon shows that Yomi Numa _does_ in fact take _significantly_ less Chakra pound for pound.

I do believe it will make up for whatever disparity in Chakra there is, as the BD is free of PIS.



> The versatility argument is extremely biased in this instance, because current Sakura has had all of a few panels to fight, versus Jiriaya who has had tons. So of course he's shown more versatility.



Current Sakura's only additions over pre-war Sakura are regeneration and Katsuyu. She's just a second Tsunade, I don't know what else you think she's going to pull that's unrelated to anything we've seen from the Slug Princess.



> The Juubling is one out of hundreds.



There were only about fifty, but that isn't pertinent. Your claim was that Jiraiya couldn't get to her as long as the smoke hasn't cleared, to which I responded by pointing out with the Jūbling's presence that the smoke doesn't need to clear before you can approach Sakura.



> Additionally Sakura actually did notice the Juubling in time.



Guess that's why she's standing there in shock like she was in real trouble, something that'd be consistent with her other displays of relative incompetence up to that point.



> I just feel this is self explanatory given Byakugo's feats and stated abilities.



I don't care what you feel like if you aren't supporting it well, and you aren't.

Byakugō doesn't allow people to _survive_ something more than what would kill them normally, it only allows them to _recover_ from it. Recovery can only follow if they _first survive_, hence not dying even if wounds bring you to the _verge of_ death. Tsunade is able to recover from so much because she's got a monstrous life force, as evidenced by her surviving bifurcation _before_ she summoned Katsuyu to heal her. Bifurcation isn't something Zabuza would live through long enough to recover, nor is it something Sakura would, and to that end what Tsunade feels confident in is irrelevant to Sakura whose best survivability feat was a narrow rod piercing a kidney.

Jiraiya can do much more damage than a punctured kidney.



> What shadow can Jiriaya chase down that will make Sakura loose attention, other than Sakura's shadow?



Any. They're in the middle of the village, there are shadows like everywhere.


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Actually I just thought of something. Jiriaya himself has to hold his breath for the duration of his Shadow-Technique. So if he is drowning Sakura it simply becomes a contest of who can hold their breath the longest, in which case Sakura wins, due to Byakugo.



No, because he can release the technique after he gets her stuck and then just go about his business. He doesn't need to maintain it until she drowns.



> Yomi Numa, huh? We were talking about the Shadow-Technique Jiriaya uses.



Oh. My bad.



> She doesn't have to catch them at all.



If the shockwave Sakura causes catches them, by extension that means that Sakura caught them.

The shockwave was troublesome to avoid kinda big, not impossible to avoid kinda big.



> Easy. Tsunade is physical stronger than Sakura. Yet Sakura's striking force is well beyond Tsunade's. If Sakura hasn't magically become as physically strong as Tsunade it's her chakra control that is making the difference in her striking force, which means her chakra control is better.



The power behind Chakra enhanced strength stems from the instantaneous dispersion of Chakra into a target in the moment of contact, and the amount used. The individualized _physical_ striking power of the user doesn't fit into the equation, so should be no "making up the difference". Even if there were, that'd just mean Tsunade has to use less Chakra to reach a certain level of destruction than Sakura does (compensating for the "I don't have to maintain my youth" advantage), not necessarily that Sakura's Chakra control is better.

I don't think Sakura's striking power is "well beyond" Tsunade's either, only reminiscent of it (hence it reminding Hashirama of Tsunade and him only saying it "might" be greater than Tsuna's as though the difference wasn't large enough to be clear, whilst leaving Shizune unfazed by the effect). Susano'o shattering will always be better than Jūbling denting in my eyes.



> Durability and Resilience all have to with medical ninjutsu



They don't have anything to do with feats acquired before said Jutsus are employed.



> Lifting strength Tsunade is still better than Sakura at.



Obviously.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Aug 11, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Sakura blew up dozens of Juubi fodder. What manga are you reading?​​



What are you reading naruto and sasuke had to save her from juubi fodder


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## Jad (Aug 11, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> What are you reading naruto and sasuke had to save her from juubi fodder



Following up Lord Aizen's post:

Didn't Sakuraliterally smack the ground with the Juubi flying into the air, only to have one a second later attack her? You say her attack killed all those Juubi's with no proof but just a picture of them flying in the air. Yet evidence actually points closer to her only managing to momentarily displace the lot; considering one immediately attacked her straight after her punch.


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Gladly.


In fairness I used the wrong example. Naruto is nice because we get to see most of his training. The more apt example would be the other rookies, who we know their skills increased, but we don't usually get to see their training. Sakura is no different in that regard. 



> Funnily enough


Can you explain to me why the author would have Sakura say she just now caught up to Naruto and Sasuke, if his intent is that her skills barely increased?



> Sakura's not shown to be any more reflexive than Konan or Animal Realm,


She dodge one of Kaguya's Juubi arms (which God-Mode Naruto stated was very fast) last chapter for a while. That's better than anything Konan and Animal-Realm have to their name.



> two people who also boast familiarity with Jiraiya over her.


Again I ask how familiarity makes a difference with such a straight-forward attack?



> He needn't meticulously bind each and every one of her fingers either, he just needs to clump up his hair around her whole hands and hold tight because if they're held together she can't maneuver them to cut anything.


So it has to bind her fingers than...... 



> That's your job, because you're the one asserting that because Animal could Kawarimi out of it Sakura will be able to summon. You don't get to conveniently neglect the fact that Animal had a much larger window of opportunity to set up the substitute than Sakura will have here in all of that.


I said Animal Kwarimi'd out of it, which is fact. You said he was able to do that only because Jiriaya gave him more time to do so. So no the burden of proof is on you to back up the argument you just made. And while your at it you should also explain why more time makes Kwarimi easier to pull off in the first place, as I do not know what that why be the case.



> Well for starters it requires no muscle tension/significant use of body dynamics or the like for Sakura to read into. She won't know which ropes of hair are going to go where based on Jiraiya's finger movements or anything like she did after she'd been fighting Sasori for a period of time.


The hair away just darts straight towards the enemy. So she'll know an attack is coming the moment the Jutsu is used; it's that simple. Also BTW, she has seen these exact type of techniques used by Kaguya.



> Your reasoning being?


That it takes a split instance to bite ones finger. So you need to be god speed to stop something like that. Jiriaya hair has never been presented as that fast. 



> She won't be regrowing anything because she'll already be dead. The extent to which Byakugō can be used is dependent upon the natural survivability of the user, the only thing the amount of Chakra can change is the duration for which it can be used.


Sakura doesn't even need hand-seals to activate Byakugo, so the moment she is bound by the hair she will just activate it.



> The hair will have bound her up, meaning it will already be in contact with her fingers, so she can't extend anything because there still won't be a moment of impact.


She retracts her finger and than extends it hitting new points of hair, it's that simple. Unless your saying she won't be able to move her finger at all. Which to me makes this start to get absolutely ridiculous, because we never seen the hair bind someone to the point where they can't even twitch a finger.



> Sinking in he context of a technique relating to the earth would simply mean "to become submerged", not "gradually decrease or decline".


Yes it means to become submerged, but over time. When something sinks, it's a process. And we've seen that process with Yomi Numa. When Human-Realm touches the area Jiriaya hid his swamp, he doesn't immediately sink beneath the swamp. It's a process.



> Yomi Numa having an active suction is supported by the instance with Human realm who was getting pulled in deeper even when it was cast on a ceiling. The submerging aspect is clearly not reliant upon gravity. Both times the technique was used the victim was shown to be immediately pulled into it. There's been no attention to the sinking being a gradual effect that would grant Sakura a timeframe to reliably notice she's sinking and then summon within it, especially when she has no knowledge and may well simply try to struggle out of it first.


Human realm still sinking is due to the adhesive effect, and it was gradual sinking effect being observed with human-realm, not his entire body instanly be



> I never claimed Byakugō couldn't heal burn damage. I'm claiming Sakura wouldn't even survive an attack of that magnitude in order for it to heal her.


The healing would be going on throughout and if she's inside Katsuya it's Katsuya that is soaking up the damage while being healed



> Unless the event in question is that very showing, which your statement does nothing to actually disprove as she's not been "shown" to tank anything like that with regeneration either until you can prove that she used the technique on herself and not entirely on the villagers.


What do you mean use the technique on herself. Of course she can use the technique on herself, while healing others. Why wouldn't she be able to?

And you don't seem to get it if Tsunade did not shield herself with that technique and Katsuya she'd have tons of debree's riddling her entire body, as objects would have been blasted at her, at high speeds. She has none of that.



> Tsunade had already instructed


So let's put it this way. If the Anbu was excluding himself and Tsunade, as he was in the previous statement, than that means Fodder Anbu also survived CST w/o Gensis of Rebirth or Katsuya shielding. That basically leaves us with two interpretations.

Fodder can survive CST shockwave, so Tsunade tanking it is no big deal
Tsunade and the Anbu were included in that statement and also were protected by Tsunade's chakra, as people in the village.

I think the former makes no sense whatsoever given the scale of the CST shockwave, but to each his own.



> Not beneficially. If Katsuyu absorbs her to defend from the blast Jiraiya can just dark swamp her after that. If she's already inside Katsuyu she won't know about the dark swamp until she and her giant slug have already been swallowed up.


So Katsuya just sinks into the swamp while saying nothing to Sakura lol.



> Well I don't, so...


Well all I have to say is this will be funny when we see 100% Katsuya



> The disparity in scale between the "tiny" swamp and the tiny toad Jiraiya could summon shows that Yomi Numa does in fact take significantly less Chakra pound for pound.
> 
> I do believe it will make up for whatever disparity in Chakra there is, as the BD is free of PIS.


Or Yomi Numa takes less chakra control than summoning a specific Toad.



> Current Sakura's only additions over pre-war Sakura are regeneration and Katsuyu. She's just a second Tsunade, I don't know what else you think she's going to pull that's unrelated to anything we've seen from the Slug Princess.


Sakura has already shown the usage of poisoned weapons and knock out gas, which is more like Shizune's fighting style. So that already is deviation from simply being a clone of Tsunade. Also even if she showed all the same stuff that Tsunade did, that would render your argument irrelevant, as than she'd be equally as versatile as Tsunade. 

Though since no one was expecting Sakura to pull out the shit she did recently, I have no clue what I expect from here anymore. She could asspull master level Genjutsu next week, because Kishi just happened to finally remember that he said she'd be good at it. She could asspull  anything at this point.



> There were only about fifty, but that isn't pertinent. Your claim was that Jiraiya couldn't get to her as long as the smoke hasn't cleared, to which I responded by pointing out with the Jūbling's presence that the smoke doesn't need to clear before you can approach Sakura.


Actually my point was the shock-wave would force Jiriaya to keep his distance from Sakura. Since Jiriaya is not 50 Juublings (or whatever) he can't afford to stay anywhere remotely near where the shock-wave would be, as he doesn't have 50 chances to be of the few in the right place to survive the shockwave, while also remaining close to where Sakura was.



> Guess that's why she's standing there in shock like she was in real trouble, something that'd be consistent with her other displays of relative incompetence up to that point.


Shock doesn't mean your going to die. I'm not going to even bother with all the instance where someone is shocked by a sudden attack, but doesn't die from it.

And the scene was there to show the team 7 members having each others backs, not to show incompetence, the entire chapter was suppose to show Sakura's brilliance.

[


----------



## Turrin (Aug 11, 2014)

> yakugō doesn't allow people to survive something more than what would kill them normally, it only allows them to recover from it. Recovery can only follow if they first survive, hence not dying even if wounds bring you to the verge of death. Tsunade is able to recover from so much because she's got a monstrous life force, as evidenced by her surviving bifurcation before she summoned Katsuyu to heal her. Bifurcation isn't something Zabuza would live through long enough to recover, nor is it something Sakura would, and to that end what Tsunade feels confident in is irrelevant to Sakura whose best survivability feat was a narrow rod piercing a kidney.


Nope this is wrong. Byakugo does allow people to survive shit that would kill them normally:

DBIII, _If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state. It's impossible to die by any means... _

And once again just because Tsunade's seal is not released does not mean she isn't healing herself. Again we saw Sakura use healing from the Byakugo-Seal despite the seal not being released. When Tsunade was cut in half she was likely healing herself the entire time, just not releasing the seal to use Byakugo, as to conserve chakra for healing the other Gokage.



> Jiraiya can do much more damage than a punctured kidney.


More than Juubidara's Black Element, that eliminates Sakura's ability to heal herself while it's stabbed through her. Yeah, no he can't.

And you also know it was not just the kideny consider how the rod was jammed into Sakura on an upwards angle.



> Any. They're in the middle of the village, there are shadows like everywhere.


And how is Jiriaya chasing those shadows distracting Sakura?



> No, because he can release the technique after he gets her stuck and then just go about his business. He doesn't need to maintain it until she drowns.


Explain to me how this would work

If he marches her into the swamp, than he'd have to wait until she is completely submerged otherwise she'd release herself with summoning. He'd than have to release himself from the swamp, but since he'd be right next to Sakura how does he release himself from the swamp w/o releasing her? If he makes the area around himself not sink or have the adhesive effect. Than sakura can also escape, because she'd be right there. Also Jiriaya needs to suck air into his lungs to inflate himself, how does he do that if he's submerged in the swamp.

And all of this assumes Jiriaya can hold Sakura, when his only feat is against fodder.



> If the shockwave Sakura causes catches them, by extension that means that Sakura caught them.
> 
> The shockwave was troublesome to avoid kinda big, not impossible to avoid kinda big.


For a clone that poof when hit by anything, none of them that are even remotely near Sakura are surviving it.



> The power behind Chakra enhanced /QUOTE]
> 
> You know as well as I do that Tsunade's physical strength is part of the equation in determining her striking power. If Sakura max striking power is greater than or equal to Tsunade's max striking power, but Sakura is has greatly less physical strength, it is due to her superior chakra control that she can match Tsunade.
> 
> ...


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## Hero (Aug 11, 2014)

Funny how I made this thread and it was locked 

/politics /offtopic


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 11, 2014)

Jad said:


> Following up Lord Aizen's post:
> 
> Didn't Sakuraliterally smack the ground with the Juubi flying into the air, only to have one a second later attack her? You say her attack killed all those Juubi's with no proof but just a picture of them flying in the air. Yet evidence actually points closer to her only managing to momentarily displace the lot; considering one immediately attacked her straight after her punch.



No, Sakura punched the ground and killed all of them apart from one, which may not have even been hit by the direct blast in the first place. Did you see any other Juubi fodder get back up afterwards? No? You didn't?

Well there you fucking go then.



Hero said:


> Funny how I made this thread and it was locked
> 
> /politics /offtopic


​​


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 11, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The one thing Kishimoto high-lighted about Ashura was his physical energy and strength of body (not Mokuton or Bijuu suppression powers).



So you want me to cast out the only real common sense around here and pretend that Asura's battle avatar resembling the Tailed Beast mode avatar wasn't at all related to Tailed Beasts?

Asura's spirit and Chakra were what was migrating. The strong body was a physical trait; genetics are at play there, not spirit leaping, which is why the trait is present within his descendants. Yeah, some may not have had it because certain traits can and do skip generations, but only in the same sense that not all of Indra's descendants had the Sharingan. It's still obvious that Tsunade is among those who inherited the trait given her raw power, durability, and resilience.



> Except Naruto's strength of body and chakra were indicated to be special.



They're not particularly special when relevantly compared to Tsunade, though.



> In the Naruto-Manga Shinobi don't tend to die right away from fatal wounds.



Many of them tend to die hastily, and they don't continue functioning through it they just get incapacitated, aka all of the victims of the Mokuton spike rain during the war, including Neji.



> Zabuza is not a Senju and he did not die right away despite having tons of weapons stabbed through him all over his body.



Zabuza's abnormally tolerant to damage anyway. There were only like six swords, which weren't even penetrating into his back that deeply. He also "died" immediately from Kakashi's Raikiri (that was able to penetrate deeper) in the war, not long after Haku "died" rapidly after not even being fully bifurcated.



> Just like Sasuke after being stabbed in the heart by Madara didn't die right away ether.



Sasuke was outright dropped and unable to even carry himself over to Madara. Tsunade took the stab to the heart on top of those other movement hampering injuries and still got up off the ground, leapt over Naruto and decked Orochimaru the moment she got over her phobia.



> Hiruzen survived the Ksunagi sword being jammed through him and twisted inside of him for an extended duration of time. Minato survived having the Kyuubi-Claw pierce through his body for a certain period of time.



That just shows how especially resilient they are. That's certainly more impressive than getting knocked out by a flying booty, but not as impressive as being bifurcated and still summoning most concerned with the well being of people put down by less grievous wounds than your own like Tsunade.



> Any Ninja that Kishimoto feels is relative high "level" can last long enough where if they had Tsunade's medical Ninjutsu they would be able to ultimately survive these types of wounds.



No, they could not....



> In Tsunade's case against Kabuto they weren't even attacks aimed at being fatal and her fat-breasts helped her escape some of the damage.



The fact of the matter is that even in the eyes of a precocious medical specialist like Kabuto those attacks were still sufficient to immediately sideline ninja normally, and they didn't do that to a Tsunade that was out of shape and out of breath. The boy's surprise is a testament to how astonishing the feat really was.

Kabuto's aim was to stop her cold from lack of breath and Tsunade made a point that she _couldn't_ breathe after he tagged her- that means he reached his goal and so her breasts actually did nothing. Being unable to read minds Kabuto just reconsidered the effectiveness of his scalpel out of ignorance to Tsunade's threshold for damage at that juncture.



> No where does that statement say that doing something like detonating an explosive tag at point blank range would only be reckless for Sakura.



It doesn't need to. It was reckless because Sakura's not too special in terms of durability, and Chiyo was sitting there looking at the condition Sakura was in so we can trust her judgment.



> Hidan has a technique that specifically grants him an immortal body, so I see no reason to consider him representative of the norm.



Immortality =/= durability.



> It was literally 11 pages from the time Sakura was stabbed in a vital area, until the time she collapsed (yet was still conscious) on the ground. Tsunade herself was collapsed on the ground (10 pages later) when she used Gensis of Rebirth to recover from Orochimaru attacks.



Extensive period of time? On the very same page Sakura said her body was starting to go numb and unable to control her Chakra Chiyo gave her the antidote.

If you're going to _fallaciously_ use the number of pages to measure the amount of time that passed, you can at the very least make sure to count correctly. There were _14_ pages between when Tsunade got stabbed in the heart and when she decked Orochimaru.



> You mean Orochimaru hit her more times in non vital areas.



Damage is cumulative and has a negative correlation to performance, so it just continues getting more impressive even if the additional wounds weren't in vital areas.

Put someone like Sasuke in that condition and he'd be scraping his nails in the ground moaning, not leaping up to smack Orochimaru.



> Sure, but as previously discussed high level shinobi can tank a shit ton w/o dying right away.



Dismemberment is a lot worse than anything Sakura's endured, and even the things she's been K.O.'d by.



> When swords take up space the regeneration can still be occurring within the areas that are touching the sword.



Only so little can be done; it can at most reconstitute any stray tears in the immediate area around the sword. Truly meaningful healing, of the main injury and primary concern, that is, however, would require the obstructing object to be completely removed as no two bodies of matter can occupy the same space at the same time.



> I literally showed you the pages, where Sakura does so.



No you didn't.



> Ordinary Shinobi are the nameless fodder that die from anything.



"Fodder" only specifies whether or not a character is relevant. It has nothing to do with that character's physical stats, general power, etc. Everybody in the room knew Tsunade was the Hokage and not a fodder, so the threat was perceived to be real even for high tiers.



> Of course I'd give this "feat" more credence if Kishimoto indicated she was not torn apart due to her body's durability.



Kishimoto let Tsunade stay intact through the transfer _before_ she utilized her regeneration technique, so he already did.

If not, she'd have been ripped to pieces and dead before she used the Jutsu.



> This oppose to the bad translation that has Sakura say she can't use medical Ninjutsu anymore and than proceed to use medical ninjutsu.



She said she still had "some" Chakra left, and we saw her running out when she tried to heal Naruto _(1)_. If you scroll back in the link you'll see this source had a similar translation to what you just posted, too.



> PIS is no reason to ignore Sakura being given these feats.



Yes it is, because if she goes from running out to pumping dimension-connections with no rational explanation it means that Kishi's not bothering with consistency anymore past that point and neither should we.



> Why would that be brought up if it made no difference...i'm begging you to consider how story-telling works.



Story-telling mechanics don't make any mentioned detail immune to being rendered negligible.



> Where was Tsunade stated to have higher base reserves than current-Sakura?



A better question is where was it stated that Sakura's base reserves had increased beyond Tsunade's? Even with all of Kakashi's stamina improvements until the introduction of Pain, he was in the same tier of stamina that he was in during the Chūnin Exams in Part 1. That ought to shed some light on just how big a gap there is between the stamina tiers, and Sakura was an entire tier and a half below Tsunade in the last update.



> She used up her entire seal in the Orochimaru fight.



She didn't use the entire thing, as she had enough Chakra left over to reform it as soon as the fight was over. She also didn't instruct Sakura about the seal until the training had already been progressing for a while.



> Really dude just really....



Yes, Turrin, really. Just really.

Before she brought out the giant slug Tsunade said "_I'll_ be upstairs waiting for info and helping Katsuyu with the wounded!" not "_The Anbu and I_ will be upstairs waiting for info and helping Katsuyu with the wounded!"

She's the only one with the wafting hair we've seen both times the technique was used, the Anbu don't notice Kakashi's death like Tsunade did, and when she gets up nothing happens to the circle, so it isn't like they're linked to the transference process. It really seems as though they were just up there for surveillance/guarding purposes or something (not unlike what she assigned for Shizune), especially when they all broke formation and jumped up after noticing Deva without waiting on Tsunade to stop the healing and join them.



> As for level of damage Sakura was healing Shinobi that were fighting against Shinobi that would destroy Pain zero diff.



That has nothing to do with the level of damage each of the ninja in question received.



> Ultimately Sakura provided remote healing in a higher level battle and for more people.



She summoned a similar sized Katsuyu, so the numbers she handled would have been identical to the numbers Tsunade did.



> Obito considered connecting such a far away dimensions an incredible feat of chakra supply.



He said it was incredible for Kaguya to be able to skip back and forth between them _in an instant_; Sakura and Obito weren't going through those dimensions instantly, and they hardly managed to keep the last one open, so already it's partially removed from that hype.



> Pretty sure that's what I said



It isn't.



> I don't appreciate being called a liar.



Then stop living up to it.



> People in glass houses should not throw such big stones.



Halfwits also shouldn't pretend to be psychics who can read the author's mind, but I see that hasn't stopped you...


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## FlamingRain (Aug 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> In fairness I used the wrong example. Naruto is nice because we get to see most of his training.



And we flashed back through Sakura's unlike the other Rookie 9.



> The more apt example would be the other rookies, who we know their skills increased, but we don't usually get to see their training. Sakura is no different in that regard.



None of the rookies improved by such a margin that they'd go from typical Jōnin to beyond the legendary Sannin and Hokage, so if Sakura is no different in that regard that's fine.



> Can you explain to me why the author would have Sakura say she just now caught up to Naruto and Sasuke, if his intent is that her skills barely increased?



Sakura "caught up" in the sense that she can pull off Kage level feats now, but she can pull those off because of newly-realized access to an extra Chakra stock, not a significant increase in skill, durability or the like.



> She dodge one of Kaguya's Juubi arms.



No she couldn't dodge it, that's the entire reason she screamed and Kakashi had to intervene.

Konan reacted to Kamui, and Animal Realm's reaction timing is Nagato's, which did well against people like Bee and KCM Naruto.



> Again I ask how familiarity makes a difference with such a straight-forward attack?



The attack can either go straight at the enemy as it did with Konan or split off into multiple bundles coming from different directions as it did with the crab, this isn't accounting for its potential to suddenly expel numerous spikes.

There will be no forewarning as there is no body movement dynamic or muscle tension to read, and because Jiraiya has free control over it even after launch it can't be predicted as a normal projectile would either, meaning she can't tell ahead of time which option Jiraiya's going to roll with. It isn't something she can anticipate and avoid.



> I said Animal Kwarimi'd out of it.



And you cited it as the reason Sakura could get out of it, neglecting the difference in afforded opportunities. I called you out on that. We don't know when Animal did the Kawarimi, but that's exactly why you need to account for the differences in the time frames that both will experience, something you haven't done.



> Sakura doesn't even need hand-seals to activate Byakugo.



It won't save her regardless.



> Unless your saying she won't be able to move her finger at all.



That is exactly what I'm saying.

We've never seen Sakura twitch her fingers while bound in mounds of steel-tough material.



> Human realm still sinking is due to the adhesive effect.



Don't be gump. Adhesiveness won't pull someone upwards. No matter how strong the property is, all it will do is leave it stuck, so the fact that Human Realm rose into the swamp shows that it isn't relying on gravity to suck people in. And the reason Human Realm wasn't immediately submerged is because he already hit the bottom (or top, because it's a ceiling?) of the swamp, as logically Jiraiya can only make the swamp as deep as the tunnel walls are thick since the technique only transforms surfaces as opposed to creating surfaces. (Jiraiya cannot create earth for Yomi Numa. If you think he can then you're ready to claim he can spawn the swamps in the air and all that jazz, because that just follows naturally.)



> The healing would be going on throughout and if she's inside Katsuya it's Katsuya that is soaking up the damage while being healed



Considering that it burned right through the skin of a giant that withstood fleeting exposure to C0, I don't think it will matter.

Merging with Katsuyu leaves her susceptible to Yomi Numa alongside the slug.



> Why wouldn't she be able to?



I didn't say that she couldn't, I said that she didn't.



> She has none of that.



Show and prove it then.



> If the Anbu was excluding himself and Tsunade, as he was in the previous statement, than that means Fodder Anbu also survived CST w/o Gensis of Rebirth or Katsuya shielding.



Why would the Anbu have excluded himself? That's not the same one we see in the panel with Tsunade before the blast, y'know. The hair's slightly longer, like that other Anbu's was. That one may have been protected by Katsuyu himself.



> So Katsuya just sinks into the swamp while saying nothing to Sakura.



Yes, because it will happen too quickly for her to expel Sakura before going under.



> Or Yomi Numa takes less chakra control than summoning a specific Toad.



The only difference between summoning Gamakichi and Gamabunta is the amount of Chakra put in, so if Jiraiya summoned Gamakichi it was just a matter of the amount of Chakra.

Less control equates to more wasted Chakra to some extent though, which would just make the cost-gap look even larger.



> Sakura has already shown the usage of poisoned weapons and knock out gas, which is more like Shizune's fighting style.



That's still pre-war.

IIRC Kakashi said Tsunade taught her how to make the sleep bomb, though.



> Also even if she showed all the same stuff that Tsunade did, that would render your argument irrelevant, as than she'd be equally as versatile as Tsunade.



Sakura doesn't have Tsunade's non-striking strength, so my argument is still valid because she still won't have a way to get out of that cycle.



> Actually my point was the shock-wave would force Jiriaya to keep his distance from Sakura.



That's hardly going to inhibit Jiraiya given that he normally fights at a range anyway.



> Shock doesn't mean your going to die.



Sure makes it look that way, though.



> And the scene was there to show the team 7 members having each others backs, not to show incompetence, the entire chapter was suppose to show Sakura's brilliance.



When was the last time you spoke with Kishi-sensei, Turrin?


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## FlamingRain (Aug 12, 2014)

Turrin said:


> DBIII, _If this technique is used, a body whose vital organs are so gravely injuried that it cannot bear it any longer will be instantly restored to its uninjured state._



That doesn't mean it'll let someone survive something that would push them past the point of death. It's in line with the "on the verge of death" comment in the description.

Just look at the diction:

"It cannot bear it _*any longer*_", as though it is still bearing it at that moment in question, meaning "injury didn't kill them outright but they'll succumb to it in a bit", which is totally not what I'm talking about.



> Again we saw Sakura use healing from the Byakugo-Seal despite the seal not being released.



If we have you haven't shown me where.



> And you also know it was not just the kideny consider how the rod was jammed into Sakura on an upwards angle.



Still looks like it was just her kidney.



> And how is Jiriaya chasing those shadows distracting Sakura?



Losing line-of-sight.....



> If he marches her into the swamp, than he'd have to wait until she is completely submerged.



That will take like half of half of half of a second.

A shadow shows behind the person, so he can step to the very edge where Sakura's feet fall in and he can get out then on the dry ground right behind her. He could even be funny about it and have her sit on the edge with her legs and feet stuck in it then slip away.



> You know as well as I do that Tsunade's physical strength is part of the equation in determining her striking power.



Not really.



> So you mean feats that any high level Ninja can match then?



Because the other 4 Kage totally weren't out of it due to less grievous injuries when bifurcated Tsunade popped Katsuyu and was still more worried about them than herself, figuring she'd live long enough that she could wait./sarcasm


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2014)

> How do you know that only a few Senju inherited the strong body of the younger son when it was highlited that Senjus inherited that body, not 'some' Senjus.



Saying otherwise would be like stating only some Uchihas inherited the sharingan.


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