# Lucifer (Supernatural) vs Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha



## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Okay then, it's that time again where we use a pretty powerful universe in an attempt to gauge Lucifer's power and probably there's as we did with ToAru, Touhou and Houshin Engi.

1. He fights them 1 on 1 gauntlet style

2. They all gang bang him, if this is too much for him throw in his bro Michael.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

Lucifer is gonna be doing some befriending


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## Amae (Apr 20, 2012)

The murdering kind of befriending.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

feat

Lucifer's profile page for those wondering what his abilities are.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm going to add Nanoha's too

Considering a lot of work has been put into it.

Hancock fanart


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## Nevermind (Apr 20, 2012)

Ulti's back with a terrible set.

Yeah, Lucifer's gonna shove that set up some ass.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

turn that sum bitch sideways

AND STICK IT STRAIGHT UP THEIR CANDY ASS!


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

I want at least one more supporter of the series to have some input on this.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Yeah, that would be nice.

I thought at least scenario 2 would be debatable.


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## Amae (Apr 20, 2012)

Lucifer could be potentially sealed away (how susceptible would you say he is to sealing) or done in by use of the Jewel Seeds in the second scenario. That's about it, Lucifer's beaten stronger verses.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

He was sealed away in the Cage, but considering the nature of Hell and the Cage itself, it may or may not be a good example.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

You can BFR him as with Lucifer's Cage but you have to take steps to do that in the first place. It needs to be a heavily constructed dimension of some kind as he can freely jump between dimensions, timelines and probably teleport around the universe so you need to do some heavy ass sealing.

Jewel Seeds seem like a definite threat.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

at the least it (such sealing) would probably require backing from something comparable to Death (his ring used to open/hold the cage ?) .. you know, *that* Death 

like ~classic Strange could probably do it np .. Nanoha-verse likely doesn't have the juice for that


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2012)

Hasn't Lucifer soloed Houshin Engi?

Either Jyoka or Fukki can solo Nanohaverse, though I suppose perhaps A>B>C logic may not follow here.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2012)

Yeah, Lucifer should take this pretty comfortably.

The Jewel Seeds apparently take a shit ton of prep to use.

Like 30 minutes or whatever.

And as far as I'm aware, those are the biggest threat in general.


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## Amae (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> You can BFR him as with Lucifer's Cage but you have to take steps to do that in the first place. It needs to be a heavily constructed dimension of some kind as he can freely jump between dimensions, timelines and probably teleport around the universe so you need to do some heavy ass sealing.


Since I watch Supernatural, I figured any kind of sealing the Nanohaverse  has would be ineffective.



> Jewel Seeds seem like a definite threat.


Jewel Seeds have the ability to grant wishes, so there's potential there to warp Lucifer out of existence. It's stated the ability is limited and there are no feats of its usage that I know of. Jewel Seed can consume the user's body and soul (something Luc doesn't have), so a wish of that magnitude can be granted. The other ability, dimensional interference, would lead to a stalemate at best since it involves the destruction of multiple dimensions. Lucifer's true form being incorporeal leads me to believe it would just be suicide and it requires 30 minutes to reach that stage.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

Lucifer should be able to stop time as well if we accept the last moments of "My Heart Will Go On" as Castiel's feat.


I'm convinced it is, but I would like some other's input on this.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Lucifer's true form should be a multi-dimensional being and just an Archangels true form showing up can fuck up several hundred KM of land.

Erasing Lucy from existence is a sure fire way to beat him though.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Judas said:


> Lucifer should be able to stop time as well if we accept the last moments of "My Heart Will Go On" as Castiel's feat.
> 
> 
> I'm convinced it is, but I would like some other's input on this.



Angels gain powers and grow more powerful depending on their position in the hierarchy. Lucifer is an Archangel and IIRC Castiel was a Seraph at that point. There are no signs of Angel's losing powers as their rank goes up.

The time stop was Castiel as he was trying to save Sam and Dean. Hell it could've been Balthazar I suppose because it certainly wasn't Atropos and Castiel>Balthazar.

I think Lucy, other Archangels and other Seraph's like Zachariah and Anna (?) should be able to stop time.


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## Amae (Apr 20, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Yeah, Lucifer should take this pretty comfortably.
> 
> The Jewel Seeds apparently take a shit ton of prep to use.
> 
> ...


It only takes 30 minutes for a specific function of activated jewel seeds (dimensional disturbance, which begins immediately) to reach a higher state where it'll cause space-time ruptures capable of destroy multiple dimensional worlds. They can still just use its reality warping which requires no prep.

And to speak of their sealing capabilities, Nanoha was capable of sealing the reactor (the energy source that supports the dimensional distortion) and Lindy could suppress the dimensional distortion nine of the Jewel Seeds were creating.

Seeing how an activated jewel seed can create dimensional distortions, and can absorb and merge with matter and the user's soul (probably a mage's energy, too), is its reality warping sufficient to kill or seal Lucifer?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2012)

Don't watch supernatural.

Purely basing my judgement off him defeating Houshin Engi.

However, once more, I'm aware that A>B>C logic may not apply here.

Just because Fukki and Jyoka and wreck Nanohaverse, doesn't mean Lucifer has the skill set and vice versa with Nanohaverse not being able to handle fukki and jyoka while they might be able to handle lucifer.

Basically, tl;dr - fuck if I know anything here.


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Just reading the link of feats, they have city busters with super speed, so they could probably at least destroy Lucifer's vessel.  If they could do more then that, I can't say.



Judas said:


> Lucifer should be able to stop time as well if we accept the last moments of "My Heart Will Go On" as Castiel's feat.
> 
> 
> I'm convinced it is, but I would like some other's input on this.



Fate wanted Sam and Dean dead, so I can't see why she would of stopped time..it had to of been Cas.  Even Balthazar probably doesn't care enough about them to save them, though I guess one could argue he did it so Cas wouldn't be pissed.  Though it really would seem like it was Cas.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 20, 2012)

> Just reading the link of feats, they have city busters with super speed, so they could probably at least destroy Lucifer's vessel. If they could do more then that, I can't say



City buster won't kill Lucifer, he was causing Earthquakes and natural disasters across the globe by merely existing.Raphael materialising blacked out the eastern seaboard of the United States. Lucifer's fight with Michael would cause collateral to the planet. Not arguing for who wins and who could blitz the other but they'll need more than Citybuster for a top tier Archangel. Uriel stated he'd smite cities back in the day, he was below Annah in his own unit and both of them are fodder to Lucifer. 



> Fate wanted Sam and Dean dead, so I can't see why she would of stopped time..it had to of been Cas. Even Balthazar probably doesn't care enough about them to save them, though I guess one could argue he did it so Cas wouldn't be pissed. Though it really would seem like it was Cas



Cas is the one who appears after time stops and Bal does'nt appear till Fate is drawn out so he can stab her. Still Bal and post Season 5 Cas are around equal so it's not important. Lucifer is vastly above those two in knowledge and power. Fate can stop time and we see those gods are nothing to Lucifer when he slaughters many Pagan.

Lucifer can for those who want to know:
-Create Wormholes via reality warping(taught Gabriel how did such a feat)
-Create dopplegangers to trick opponents(like Gabriel)
-Time travel of himself or others(needs contact possibly)
-Teleport himself and others(Cas teleported Sam and Dean without contact in S6)
-Multi-dimensional being of celestial intent in his true form like other angels
-Stop weaker beings like Pagan gods or angels from teleporting
-Create a time loop like Gabriel did to Dean in S3
-Reverse time like Gabriel did to Dean
-Erase memories(too many instances like Azazel, Gabriel, Cas etc doing so)
-Enter people's dreams(did so to Nick in the form of his wife)
-Possess new bodies with their consent(can torture or trick opponents into this)
-Can use reality warping to take away organs or give diseases(Zach's torture)
-He sees time as a fluid like other Angels
-Survived a point blank shot from the colt to the head(one of 5 things it can't kill)

Being the second strongest Archangel(Gabriel even knew he stood no chance against Lucifer) he's stronger than the likes of  Archangel Raphael, Archangel Gabriel, Pagan Gods(Fate and her sisters included), any demon(he created the stronger ones like Lilith and is the equivalent of a god to them), any angel and other supernatural beings in the verse(God, Archangel Michael, Death and God Castiel being the only exceptions).

We have one of the stronger black eyed demons blocking a bullet from the Colt(fodder to the many higher demons alone), Mercuries speed(not sure how fast he'd quantify he did take blood samples from Sam and Dean  without them seeing it )and Wendigo's speed(moved as a blur in a split second frame if I recall) to scale off.

Don't know which side will win but a City buster is not enough for this guy. He has weakness though:
-Needs consent for possession 
-Holy oil/fire can restrain him
-Certain sigil can banish him temporarily
-Certain sigil can keep him out(called Angel proofing in S6)
-Beings around his level can hurt and kill him

Certain weapons in SPN can destroy his vessel(weapons of heaven) and an archangel blade can also kill him. Don't know what the other side offers that could restrain, incapacitate, kill or BFR him long enough so I'll leave that to the other side.


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> City buster won't kill Lucifer, he was causing Earthquakes and natural disasters across the globe by merely existing.Raphael materialising blacked out the eastern seaboard of the United States. Lucifer's fight with Michael would cause collateral to the planet. Not arguing for who wins and who could blitz the other but they'll need more than Citybuster for a top tier Archangel. Uriel stated he'd smite cities back in the day, he was below Annah in his own unit and both of them are fodder to Lucifer.



Oh sure physical harm won't do it, the best it could do is destroy his vessel.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Apr 20, 2012)

Which isn't exactly a virtory right?

I mean, if what you mentioned is all it takes to destroy the vessel, and destroying the vessel = winning... Lucifer should have been defeated in a few other matches.

naturally, I'm assuming you aren't considering destroying the vessel a virtory.


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

It should also be pointed out Uriel never actually destroyed a city, nor did Michael or Lucifer show power output anywhere near planetary destruction.

Whether or not destroying his vessel is a victory depends on who created the topic I guess and what they consider victory.  Lucifer, without a vessel, is more limited then if he had one..I do know that.  Without a vessel, we've only seen him do things like create illusions and read minds.


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## Amae (Apr 20, 2012)

Top tier mages have attacks equivalent to a 148 km explosion (an attack does create said explosion, at least in the gigatons worth of energy) and the verse has several warships equipped with a cannon that can create a spatial rupture and a subsequent annihilation reaction spanning at least 200 km.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

I kind of tend to ignore conventional damage dealing in archangel matches unless it is truly monstrous

hax hax hax needed .. to BFR (for good since he dimension hops like crazy) or kill/mindrape true form



maybe I'm wanking


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

Season 5 Episode 1:Sympathy For The Devil said:
			
		

> INT. MOTEL ROOM – DAY
> 
> SAM stares at John's journal. DEAN is watching TV.
> 
> ...





			
				Season 5 Episode 22:Swan Song said:
			
		

> NEWS REPORTER: Reports are flooding in -- a 7.6 earthquake in Portland, 8.1 in Boston, more in Hong Kong, Berlin, and Tehran. The U.S.G.S. has no explanation but says to expect a six-figure death toll.





			
				Season 6 Episode 15: The French Mistake said:
			
		

> INT. PADALECKI MANSION - HALLWAY
> 
> (Sam walks into the hall and spots Genevieve)
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that this is mostly him and Michael doing practially nothing besides existing on Earth. With the earthquakes alone you have a seismic output of 480 kilotons to 480 megatons. And again, this isn't even considering the effects of the tornadoes and tsunamis. They have enough going for them to discern that the planet's surface would end up a smoldering heap as collateral damage within moments of combat with each other.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 20, 2012)

Look feats are most important but feats, character statements, word of god etc are all open to scrutiny and all useable in a vs debate here. 



> DEAN: So this is your plan, you’re gonna smite the whole friggin’ town?
> 
> CASTIEL:We’re out of time, this witch has to die, the seal must be saved.
> 
> ...



Uriel was going to destroy that town(Same and Dean convinced them to not go ahead with it and give their way a chance) and he notes he's 'purified' cities back in the day, the town one is'nt important but the City one is. 

Lucifer's essence being released does this


> RADIO ANNOUNCER 2
> —Hurricane Kinley, unexpectedly slamming into the Galveston area—
> RADIO ANNOUNCER 3
> —announced a successful test of the North Korean nuclear—
> ...



Still when he has'nt taken a vessel:


> INT. MOTEL ROOM – DAY
> SAM stares at John's journal. DEAN is watching TV.
> VOICE 1: *How would you then explain an earthquake, a hurricane, and multiple tornadoes, all at the same time, all around the globe?*
> VOICE 2: Two words. Carbon emissions.
> DEAN (to environmentalist on TV): Yeah, right, wavy gravy





> SAM:You want us to say yes to those sons of bitches?
> TRICKSTER: Hells yeah. Let's light this candle!
> SAM: *We do that, the world will end*.
> TRICKSTER: Yeah? And whose fault is that? Who popped Lucifer out of the box? Hm? Look, it's started. You started it. It can't be stopped. So let's get it over with!



Gabriel being one of the Archangels certainly knows what his two eldest brothers are capable off, he does'nt correct Sam and even notes


> GABRIEL: You do not know my family. *What you guys call the apocalypse, I used to call Sunday dinner*. That's why there's no stopping this, because this isn't about a war. It's about two brothers that loved each other and betrayed each other. You'd think you'd be able to relate



Zachariah even states that the Apocalypse is basically Ali/Foreman on a larger scale refering to Michael/Lucifer's fight. 

Lucifer even does this


> NEWS REPORTER: Reports are flooding in -- *a 7.6 earthquake in Portland, 8.1 in Boston, more in Hong Kong, Berlin, and Tehran. The U.S.G.S. has no explanation but says to expect a six-figure death toll*.
> 
> CAS: It's starting.
> BOBBY: Yeah, you think, genius?
> ...



What blast wave do you think he's refering to?Lucifer's or the collateral of Lucifer/Michael?Because both put them on planetary level. Citybusting won't kill his vessel once he's inside it. What are you basing this on when nothing hurts him, the Colt which was designed to kill almost anything in creation outside 5 beings(himself included) did nothing at point blank outside give him a headache he quickly recovered from. Michael came back in five minutes after being blasted by holy oil something that scares most angels(one of their weaknesses). You can destroy an angel's vessel(Raphael did so to Castiel's vessel but he was vastly more powerful and killed Castiel and the vessel, God brings Castiel back to life along with his vessel). Lucifer also does it to Castiel in Swan Song and he comes back to life due to God. God Castiel does kill Raphael and his vessel but he was vastly more powerful. Balthazar uses one of heave's weapons to destroy Raphael's first vessel. Other instances of vessels+Angels being killed involve angels being killed with angel blades or archangel blades.

In short you assume his vessel is a glass cannon but give no reason.

EDIT Uriel destroyed cities before
Michael/Lucifer are stopped just before they fight



> MICHAEL/ADAM: You're a monster, Lucifer. And I have to kill you.
> LUCIFER/SAM: If that's the way it's got to be... Then I'd like to see you try.
> RADIO: * Gunter, glieben, glauchen, globen! All right! I got something to say! Hey it's better to burn out! Yeah! Than fade awa-a-a-y all right oh! *
> DEAN: Howdy, boys.
> ...



Yeah hard to claim those angels who know about the power of Michael/Lucifer are saying hyperbole when these two are stopped before ever trading a single blow.


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## Garv (Apr 20, 2012)

Amae said:


> Jewel Seeds have the ability to grant wishes


No feats.

Dimensional dislocation is all that you have that could potentially can stop him.

But Lucifer seems able to teleport between worlds and dimensions. 
As I recall, precisely because of this, Fukki could beat the Nanohaverse.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

You even have an Angel like Castiel briefly recounting events from the Earth's creation to the more modern events...



			
				Season 6 Episode 20: The Man Who Would Be King said:
			
		

> CASTIEL You know, I've...I've been here for a very long time. And I remember many things. (an ocean is shown) I remember being at a shoreline, watching a little grey fish heave itself up on the beach and an older brother saying, "don't step on that fish, Castiel. Big plans for that fish." I remember the Tower of Babel...All 37 feet of it, which I suppose was impressive at the time. (clips from old movies are shown) And when it fell, they howled 'divine wrath'. But come on - dried dung can only be stacked so high. I remember Cain and Abel...David and Goliath...Sodom and Gomorrah. And, of course, I remember the most remarkable event (clips from seasons 4 and 5 are shown) - remarkable because it never came to pass. It was averted by two boys, an old drunk and a fallen angel. The grand story. And we ripped up the ending and the rules...And destiny...leaving nothing but freedom and choice. Which is all well and good, except... Well, what if I've made the wrong choice? How am I supposed to know? I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me tell you my story. (Castiel looks directly at the camera) Let me tell you everything.



Unless Angels develop Alzheimer's, you have to give a pretty good reason as to why their word, in corollation with the effects of Lucifer and Michael's essence, wouldn't waste the Earth's surface.


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## Amae (Apr 20, 2012)

> No feats.



True. Wouldn't things Jewel Seeds do simply by being activated be things it can accomplish with its reality warping?

He isn't as fast as Fukki, though, that probably doesn't matter.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Castiel has an arguable 5 digit mach feat doesn't he Judas? And Lucy>him



> What blast wave do you think he's refering to?Lucifer's or the collateral of Lucifer/Michael?Because both put them on planetary level.


Shit, that just about debunks the whole 'they can't take out the planet in one'.

Even if you aren't willing to buy that, anna fell several hundred thousand KM+ down to Earth and Lucifer>her.

Holy Oil was stated to completely destroy an Angel



> A nurse walks down the hallway. DEAN watches her go and slips into the room, shutting the door behind him and closing the shades. CASTIEL is already inside; he pours the oil in a circle around DONNIE's wheelchair.
> CASTIEL
> When the oil burns, no angel can touch or pass through the flames, or he dies.
> DEAN
> ...



Michael took a molotov of it and regenerated. You need to be quite a bit above planetbusting to take out an Archangel such as Mikey or Lucy however Nanoha has the option of BFR which is handy.


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## Fang (Apr 20, 2012)

Should use the Jewel Seeds to wish for someone to save Nanohaverse

like

Luke Skywalker 

Just saiyan


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Castiel has an arguable 5 digit mach feat doesn't he Judas? And Lucy>him



I tend to not bother with it, because of whatever factors could've been involved with the feat besides pure speed.

But yeah, arguable.



Fang said:


> Should use the Jewel Seeds to wish for someone to save Nanohaverse
> 
> like
> 
> ...


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 20, 2012)

> SAM: Oh. Wow. Wow. I bet. So -- so listen, I-I got to ask you a question. Do you remember, uh, uh, year before last, all those disasters?
> GENEVIEVE Disasters?
> SAM Yeah.Yeah, yeah, the whole earthquake spike. You know, the -- the 9.2 in Rome? I mean, the --the 8.5 outside Boston? The whole east/west tsunami chain?
> 
> GENEVIEVE Yes. I remember all of those from last season on your show



Episode in which Balthazar sends Sam/Dean to another universe(our universe where Supernatural is a show, the characters are known by their real names e.g Dean is refered to as Jensen Ankles the name of the actor who plays him)) with a ritual and when Sam mentions stuff Lucifer did in his universe, the actress who played Ruby on the show notes they all happened in season 5(last year to Sam in his universe since this is Season 6). There's enough to show Lucifer is planetary and certainly above city level.

Let me put it this way angels and their vessels can be killed by:
-Other angels
-Beings comparable or higher than the angel
-Weapons of heaven
-Holy oil(though can't keep down Michael and Lucifer for more than 5 minutes)

They are not really glass cannons. You can do stuff like make them feel hunger(Castiel fell for Famine's spell due to his vessel's hunger for Red meat) but outside things that are designed to hurt or kill them or someone whose more powerful than them they have never died to my knowledge.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Fang said:


> Should use the Jewel Seeds to wish for someone to save Nanohaverse
> 
> like
> 
> ...



bad idea

they're tag team champions

right judas?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm not even sure what kind of BFR can hold Lucy .. dimension - nope, time - nope .. only if to another universe where he hasn't powers, so can't return

Cage is a specific prison, not exactly easy to replicate that


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Lucifer is actually kinda hard to get rid of it seems.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> bad idea
> 
> they're tag team champions
> 
> right judas?



Of course. 


Team LuLu


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 20, 2012)

Why are you guys even bothering with Sutur 

This is the same poster who claimed Galactus is nowhere near universal and Thor is only double-digit hypersonic


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Lucifer is actually kinda hard to get rid of it seems.


he's not gonna let go

Sam can attest to that



Black Leg Sanji said:


> Why are you guys even bothering with Sutur
> 
> This is the same poster who claimed Galactus is nowhere near universal


wrong thread ? 

edit : wait, no it isn't .. Lucy is everywhere


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 20, 2012)

> Castiel has an arguable 5 digit mach feat doesn't he Judas? And Lucy>him



That was most likely teleportation if you're refering to him taking 2 seconds to search the whole city for Gabriel's horn of Truth.



> DEAN It shouldn't be.
> (The lighter finally sparks and the gas catches fire. Castiel yanks Sam & Dean out if the warehouse just before the ignited gas reaches them)
> EXT. FOREST - NIGHT
> DEAN Cass!
> ...



Too many factors involved this one too. They can teleport across the world and stuff but they've never moved in such speeds, no quantifiable/reliable feats so far.


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Even when he is BFR'd in the cage he still trolls Sam and Castiel


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> That was most likely teleportation if you're refering to him taking 2 seconds to search the whole city for Gabriel's horn of Truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Too many factors involved this one too. They can teleport across the world and stuff but they've never moved in such speeds, no quantifiable/reliable feats so far.



It would be some pretty rapid teleportation but it seems probable but he still has to have the reaction speed to *search*.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 20, 2012)

> I'm not even sure what kind of BFR can hold Lucy .. dimension - nope, time - nope .. only if to another universe where he hasn't powers, so can't return



He has never teleported across an actual universe so whether his powers work or not in a universe, he is not coming back without any feat. He can be dimensionally BFR'd to other dimensions, just because it's harder in SPN does not make it harder for other characters or beings.


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Why are you guys even bothering with Sutur
> 
> This is the same poster who claimed Galactus is nowhere near universal



Speed isn't speed. 



Tranquil Fury said:


> Too many factors involved this one too. They can teleport across the world and stuff but they've never moved in such speeds, no quantifiable/reliable feats so far.



It seems one of the only things to really go by is Tammi's feat and Mercury's.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 20, 2012)

> He has never teleported across an actual universe so whether his powers work or not in a universe, he is not coming back without any feat.


didn't Raphael bring them back in that episode where they went into our universe ? Or who was it ? supernatural powers weren't working there, but on the other side (in SN-verse) he still could make an inter-universal gateway

otherwise how did they get back



as for dimensions - well they teleport between Earth/hell/heaven all the time + all the dimensional hax Gabriel (and archangels above him) has, not sure what can hold him in that regard


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> didn't Raphsel bring them back in that episode where they went into our universe ? Or who was it ? supernatural powers weren't working there, but on the other side (in SN-verse) he still could make an inter-universal gateway



He did tell Virgil to go back to the spot where he crossed over through. So it doesn't look like something that can be effectively pulled off at a whim.



			
				Season 6 Episode 15: The French Mistake said:
			
		

> EXT. ALLEY
> 
> HOMELESS MAN Yeah, yeah, Raphael. Like the ninja turtle. He was calling someone name of Raphael, up in heaven. Yeah, yeah. That's right. The -- the scary man killed the attractive crying man, and then he started to pray. And the strange part --After a while, I s-swear I heard this voice, answering.
> 
> ...


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## Ulti (Apr 20, 2012)

universal teleportation is implied by anna but i have no idea what to make of that.

Raphael stayed in the Supernatural universe and bought them back.


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## Tranquil Fury (Apr 20, 2012)

Raphael told Virgil to be at a specific place at a specific time. How he did it is not known, he could have done some sort of quick ritual for all we know considering some very specific things were required by Virgil.


> DEAN Try us.
> HOMELESS MAN The voice said, for Virgil *"to return tomorrow"at the place where he crossed over, "at the time of the crossing."* and Raphael would "reach through the window and take him and the key home."


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## Judas (Apr 20, 2012)

Ninja'd you TF.


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## Garv (Apr 20, 2012)

I do not know if it has value, but the Nanohaverse it's pretty huge.
"Our world" is just one of the countless worlds.

They are basically can BFR to almost any part of dimensional space.


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Look, you can bring all the character statements you want, the fact is Lucifers vessel is just plain not surviving a city busting attack.  Either show durability feats on a level that proves it, or stop talking about it.

Why is this such a hard concept?  What is it with people here and Supernatural?  Why has this subject not yet been banned from being discussed, if people obviously can't handle the "feats" thing when it comes to Supernatural?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 20, 2012)

Direct durability feats means shit against incorporeal beings


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 20, 2012)

Also, IIRC Michael regenerated his vessel from nothing after being hit by a molotov

So yeah


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Direct durability feats means shit against incorporeal beings



Except I'm talking about destroying their vessel, nothing more.

The molotov cocktail was also so far from city busting it's not even funny.

Also, Michael isn't Lucifer and was implied to be stronger.

Show me Lucifer having a durability feat on the level of city busting.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 20, 2012)

Surtur said:


> Except I'm talking about destroying their vessel, nothing more.
> 
> The molotov cocktail was also so far from city busting it's not even funny.



Still regenerated from NOTHING

So city-busting wouldnt do shit either


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Still regenerated from NOTHING
> 
> So city-busting wouldnt do shit either



When did Lucifer regenerate from nothing?  Which episode?

Or are you implying the feats of an angel that was said to be stronger then Lucifer, to Lucifer?

Post me a Lucifer durability feat on the level you are claiming.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 20, 2012)

>Implying that an archangel on the same level cant do the same

Fucking lol


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## Surtur (Apr 20, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> >Implying that an archangel on the same level cant do the same
> 
> Fucking lol



But they aren't on the same level, is the entire thing there.

So I will ask you once again: which episode does Lucifer regenerate from nothing?

See, because going by the feats rule..he isn't doing so.  Whenever it begins to get inconvenient people are quick to abandon the feat system and use character statements(because why would debates just go on silly things like facts?)

But hey, statements say that Michael beat Lucifer down, and otherwise imply he was the stronger of the two.  I'm not sure how that translates into "Lucifer can do anything Michael can do".  If he could match every single thing the guy could do then he wouldn't of lost to him in the first place.


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## Narcissus (Apr 20, 2012)

Surtur said:


> See, because going by the feats rule..he isn't doing so.  But hey whenever it begins to get inconvenient people are quick to abandon the feat system and use character statements(because why would debates just go on silly things like facts?)


The feats rule/system is that feats are the primary source of evidence over anything else, not that feats are the only accepted form of evidence and overrule everything else. I don't know where you're getting this idea from. but there are feats, calculations, power scaling, and acceptable character statements. What we don't accept is hyperbole, and there is a  difference.





> But hey, statements say that Michael beat Lucifer down,


Yeah, and we don't know the circumstances behind that.





> and otherwise imply he was the stronger of the two.


Which you seem to be accepting here, showing a clear double standard.


> If you're going to base your entire argument on character statements, please don't call this a debate.


You don't have the authority to decide what qualifies as debate and what doesn't.


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## U mad bro (Apr 20, 2012)

Lol Lucifer a high end reality bender can manipulate time and controls death. Nanoha does what now?


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## Banhammer (Apr 21, 2012)

Lucifer who taught gabriel how to reality warp casually rapes this


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## Herekic (Apr 21, 2012)

Surtur said:


> But they aren't on the same level, is the entire thing there.
> 
> So I will ask you once again: which episode does Lucifer regenerate from nothing?
> 
> ...





Angels are practically immortal.

Only 2 ways we know of to kill an angel:

1: Use an angel sword. for lucy, it would need to be an arc angel sword(as in, the personal weapon of one of the 4 arc angels)

2: be much more powerful than them.

you can kill an angel by force, but you have to pretty much COMPLETELY outclass them in all respects. 



I don't think there is anyone in nanoha who completely outclasses lucifer.


without the massive power difference(and ability to affect lucy's true form, not just his vessel) he will never die.


his body means nothing. lucy can revive the dead at will. if you destroy his body he will just remake it and be right back. you have to destroy his true, ethereal form, which takes massive power and hax.


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## Surtur (Apr 21, 2012)

Narcissus said:


> The feats rule/system is that feats are the primary source of evidence over anything else, not that feats are the only accepted form of evidence and overrule everything else. I don't know where you're getting this idea from. but there are feats, calculations, power scaling, and acceptable character statements. What we don't accept is hyperbole, and there is a  difference.Yeah, and we don't know the circumstances behind that.Which you seem to be accepting here, showing a clear double standard.
> You don't have the authority to decide what qualifies as debate and what doesn't.



So that is a no to the feats showing Lucifer can tank city busters?  Just say that, then.  You can talk about power scaling and other such nonsense all day long.  It's pretty much just an excuse for "I have no feats to support my arguments".

Statements are fine as long as they have feats to back them up.  I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for some people.  Nor am I sure why people just can't accept Supernatural characters losing certain fights.



Herekic said:


> Angels are practically immortal.
> 
> Only 2 ways we know of to kill an angel:
> 
> ...



But see, I was only talking about destroying his vessel.  He has no durability feats to suggest he can tank a city buster.  He has no feats to suggest he could even tank a building buster.

It's kind of hard to call this a debate when people try to use things other then facts in their arguments.


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## Herekic (Apr 21, 2012)

Surtur said:


> So that is a no to the feats showing Lucifer can tank city busters?
> 
> 
> 
> But see, I was only talking about destroying his vessel.  He has no durability feats to suggest he can tank a city buster.  He has no feats to suggest he could even tank a building buster.





which is entirely irrelevant, because like I said damage to his vessel means nothing.

he will be back in a few seconds even if you where to blow his body to pulp. 


Micheal was only gone for like a minute, and he was banished with holy fire(which is like angel kryptonite)


lucy's vessel getting destroyed by normal force would allow him to come back even quicker.



you don't need durability when you're immortal.


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## Surtur (Apr 21, 2012)

Herekic said:


> which is entirely irrelevant, because like I said damage to his vessel means nothing.
> 
> he will be back in a few seconds even if you where to blow his body to pulp.
> 
> ...



I get all this, but people flipped their shit when I suggested he couldn't tank a city buster.  I never said they could kill Lucifer, just destroy his vessel.  This was met with nonsense about character statements, and then people trying to apply Michael's feats to Lucifer, when we have character statements suggesting Michael is stronger.  How much stronger?  In what way?  We don't know, so it's kind of hard to apply his feats to Lucifer.

People need to make up their minds, either statements count or they don't.  It can't be both ways.

Using feats makes the most sense, and it makes it the easiest way to debate.  Characters who don't have a lot of feats just shouldn't be put in fights, but if people are going to do it anyways..well, that's their own fault.

These fights really shouldn't be anywhere near as complicated as they seem to get whenever Supernatural is involved.


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## Herekic (Apr 21, 2012)

Surtur said:


> I get all this, but people flipped their shit when I suggested he couldn't tank a city buster.  I never said they could kill Lucifer, just destroy his vessel.  This was met with nonsense about character statements, and then people trying to apply Michael's feats to Lucifer, when we have character statements suggesting Michael is stronger.  How much stronger?  In what way?  We don't know, so it's kind of hard to apply his feats to Lucifer.
> 
> People need to make up their minds, either statements count or they don't.  It can't be both ways.
> 
> ...





Honestly I don't think micheal is stronger, just that he happened to win last time.


if it was concrete that Micheal>lucy, then why was lucy rearing to go with round 2?


aside from the one incident(micheal putting lucy in the cage) nothing ever implies there is a significant power gap.


if Micheal was so much stronger, why would there be such a big fight in the first place?


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## Surtur (Apr 21, 2012)

Herekic said:


> Honestly I don't think micheal is stronger, just that he happened to win last time.
> 
> 
> if it was concrete that Micheal>lucy, then why was lucy rearing to go with round 2?
> ...



If he wasn't stronger, then how did he beat Lucifer in the first place?

This isn't even getting into the fact that they aren't the same being.  They simply just aren't, Michael won't leave a person a drooling mess after wearing them.  He's the only angel so far we know of that does that.  It's kind of hard to judge whether or not that's the only thing different between him and Lucifer.

Plus people are treating statements as feats, and we have statements(by Lucifer himself) saying Michael basically beat the shit out of him.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Apr 21, 2012)

Statements are fine so long as they are not hyperbole, given by an unreliable source or *contradicted* by what is shown. If we have Lucifer's vessel being beaten by a non city buster attack, then the statement is thrown out. Until then, the statement is valid.


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## Narcissus (Apr 22, 2012)

Surtur said:


> So that is a no to the feats showing Lucifer can tank city busters?  Just say that, then.


This is a straw man fallacy. I'm not talking about Supernatural feats, I'm addressing your incorrect notion that feats are the only form of accepted evidence.





> You can talk about power scaling and other such nonsense all day long.  It's pretty much just an excuse for "I have no feats to support my arguments".


So you are dismissing multiple accepted forms of evidence without a valid reason, and justifying it with a false interpretation of what people say?

Nice to know.





> Statements are fine as long as they have feats to back them up.  I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for some people.


This is true to an extent, in the sense that it helps separate acceptable statements from hyperbole. But it is not a basis for you to dismiss statements.

You do not have the authority to determine what is and is not accepted a proof.





> Nor am I sure why people just can't accept Supernatural characters losing certain fights.


Stop, because you are coming dangerously close to appealing to motive.


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## Ulti (Apr 22, 2012)

3 fights off the top of my head that Lucifer has lost:

 - Jedah, shit that was actually a stomp
 - Luke Skywalker, fun little debate between me, fang and judas
 - Overlord of Darkness, fun little debate again between me, fang and judas.

Note how I was actually the one arguing that Lucifer would get his shit wrecked by Jedah and I conceded to Fang in the Luke thread. I was arguing in his favor against OoD because I and Fang felt it was a good match and probably because I was a bit drunk, it's kinda embarrassing reading those posts 

So this



> Nor am I sure why people just can't accept Supernatural characters losing certain fights



Is a lie.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Apr 22, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> 1. Michael/Lucifer will wreck the planet as collateral though some humans will survive. S6's plot is Cass trying to stop Raphael from releasing Michael and Lucifer as he notes "Raphael will turn the world into a graveyard". *Lucy already has feats of causing natural disasters on a planetary scale*. Cass makes it clear when Michael/Lucy fight there's going to be a blast wave that will kill them all.



This wont be accepted, be sure of that


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## Basilikos (Apr 22, 2012)

Going by Lucifer's wiki page, he wins easily here.

Too much damn hax, DC, and durability.


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## Herekic (Apr 22, 2012)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> This wont be accepted, be sure of that





well it kinda has to, though, since it was stated fact in the verse.

this was being reported on national news channels. I think they know tornadoes and earthquakes when they see them


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