# Killer Bee vs Itachi Uchiha



## Jad (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't remember people making this thread after Bee showed how durable he is and how he can form continuous Bijuudama.


*Scenario 1:* Itachi Uchiha before he died
*Poll - Scenario 2:* Itachi Uchiha as what you would perceive as _Healthy_

*Distance:* 20 meters
*Location:* Alliance vs Madara/Obito/Juubi
*Knowledge:* Current Manga Knowledge
*Restrictions:* Kotoamatsukami 
*State of Mind:* IC - Of course to kill/win though


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## Seon (Apr 2, 2013)

I believe once Sasuke was capable of landing a genjutsu on bee before Gyumri was able to shake him out of it. Itachi could do the same. Itachis by shun feints can cause bee to lose this. 

Itachi wins 6/10


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## Alex Payne (Apr 2, 2013)

We saw their Base forms clashed and Itachi looked pretty damn good, especially when fighting on auto-pilot and not by himself. Itachi fully using his intelligence would tag B with Tsuki or Ama if he tries to fight in Base. Tsukuyomi is too fast to break out via partner method(as per statement by Kakashi back when he fought Shoten Itachi). Amaterasu is an ideal counter to Full Biju Form and is a bit faster than Bijudama. Totsuka Sword is also great against large targets. B doesn't know that Itachi's Susano has Yata Shield so I don't see him using Bijudama Barrage. And one Bijudama is unlikely to destroy Itachi's Susano. After that when LOS is blocked by smoke and shit - Itachi can Totsuka'd B the same way as Nagato. 

Killer B with full knowledge while Itachi has none can win most of the times. But manga knowledge B loses more often than not.

Sick Itachi wins 6/10. Healthy like 8/10. "Healthy" Itachi also might have charged Kotoamatsukami available depending on your views. And with it he stomps.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2013)

Seon said:


> I believe once Sasuke was capable of landing a genjutsu on bee before Gyumri was able to shake him out of it. Itachi could do the same. Itachis by shun feints can cause bee to lose this.
> 
> Itachi wins 6/10



Bee was able to break the genjutsu, pull out Samehada, then pull out his swords. All before Itachi's Kunai reached Bee from a short distance.


Bee stomps, a v2 or v1 Lariat is enough to win and he definetly has the speed to land.

Bijuu bomb solos- Kirin was able to destroy Itachi's Susanoo and Itachi wouldn't have lived without Yata Mirror. 

Also Bee could just spit Ink all over Susanoo thus sealing Itachi inside the Susanoo.

Against

Sick Itachi- Bee wins 10/10
Healthy Itachi(I don't consider much of a difference between the two)-Bee wins 7/10


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## Goobtachi (Apr 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Bee was able to break the genjutsu, pull out Samehada, then pull out his swords. All before Itachi's Kunai reached Bee from a short distance.
> 
> 
> Bee stomps, a v2 or v1 Lariat is enough to win and he definetly has the speed to land.
> ...



I thinkyou're confused, this is not Kakashi...he's the one who'd lose horribly to B. Itachi on the other hand would destroy B, he showed his superiority when Itachi was revived.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> I thinkyou're confused, this is not Kakashi...he's the one who'd lose horribly to B. Itachi on the other hand would destroy B, he showed his superiority when Itachi was revived.



I seen nothing from Edo Itachi that puts him above Bee. He didn't show any signs of dominance as KB was easily.... EASILY holding his own without using v1 or v2, and even caught Itachi very quickly mind you with his tentacle. I have done refuted all the claims about Itachi helping Bee out, by using Bee's own words in many threads debating this very topic... I will not in this one as you will just pass over it and not say shit  about my reasoning as have everyone else.

KillerBee showed that he was superior in speed(which you all hold as Itachi's greatest asset other than MS). KillerBee also has manga knowledge so MS isn't going to be that effective, of which im about to you why.

Tsukuyomi- Bee can be broken out of it, jins can communicate faster between themselves and their bijuus than Tsukuyomi effects happen. This was showcased when Bee broke out of Itachi's jutsu. Plus Bee isn't weak minded so I don't think causing him massive amounts of Pain is going to put him down. Plus he has fought 2 Uchihas capable of using the MS, both have used genjutsu on him, Im sure he won't be looking straight at Itachi's eyes.

Amaterasu- KB would've sent a sword through Itachi's head from a massive distance away from the time Itachi started prepping Amaterasu(of which anyone can feel) to before he cast it, and Nagato had to save Itachi from being hit. Bee easily has the speed to outrun Itachi's Amaterasu as Sasuke was able to and Bee is clearly faster than both. Add in v1 or v2 and its overkill. Plus Bee can just block it with a tentacle and attack Itachi with the tentacle or cut it off, also he has Samahada which would without a doubt eat Amaterasu.

Susanoo- SOT eaten by Samahada, Yata Mirror obliterated by just 1 bijuu dama or a continous bijuu dama and Itachi's(what you say) full fledge Susanoo wasn't able to tank Kirin and Itachi clearly took damage from Kirin so there is a limit to Yata Mirrors ability or else it would've been sent back in the sky, by what you all say should happen.

And Itachi's base arsenal is useless, while KB can end with any of his techniques or skills.


Actually rephrase my win/loss scenario

KB stomps 10/10 Sick and Healthy(made up) Itachi.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 2, 2013)

Probably the most important difference between them is intelligence.

And, in that respect, Itachi outclasses B handily. B is too carefree and fallible. If not for Nagato's warning and Naruto's interception, he may very well have been caught off-guard by Itachi's mid-Katon clone feint (we see a spoken exclamation point, indicating surprise). Kisame also managed to take him out pretty easily via Samehada's chakra-draining on the island turtle because B wasn't mindful of handling Samehada physically, something he should've known better about.

Amaterasu and Susano'o are great tools to use against B's Hachibi form. The effectiveness of Tsukuyomi is still up in the air, but whether or not it works should obviously make a big difference in Itachi's performance here.

I think it goes without saying that Itachi wins. It doesn't really matter if he's sick or healthy; he has the tools to defeat Killer B either way, and he's more competent than Killer B either way.


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## joshhookway (Apr 2, 2013)

Killer B wins. Killer Bee can literally fully transform and fire multiple bijuudama within a second. Itachi would get pulverized even if he uses susanoo.


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## Stermor (Apr 2, 2013)

if tsukiyomi works on killer bee itachi has a good chance at winning.. 

killerbee was perfectly capable of handling itachi... even in base. goign v1/v2 would only increase his power.. 

amaterasu if it gyuki(was just playing it up) will hit if killerbee decides he needs it.. but really amaterasu hurting gyuki enough that he can't even fire a bijuudama(something sasuke couldnt prevent). and even with amaterasu they where still capable of making rational decision of taking a vacations.. 

also no killer bee is not dumb at all he was fighting minato when he was only a little older then itachi(when fighting orochimaru).. and he was fighting jounin even before the hachibi.. killer bee without a doubt is a genius.. he just has a carefree disposition because he knows he can deal with 99.99% of the shinobi in the world cassually.. 

anyway it is unlikely that itachi is able to a killing blow in on killer bee.. while the same is not true.. 

durability and fire power beeing the reasons why killerbee would win this.. while i consider both itachi and killerbee of similar skill..


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## Nikushimi (Apr 2, 2013)

Just gonna point out that Bijuudama isn't breaching Susano'o. So you can forget the continuous, weaker Bijuudama ever doing it.

Too many people are misled by the scale of these attacks. Just because they are bigger than Kirin doesn't mean they are stronger (or anywhere near as powerful, even).

The Hachibi's limbs were cut off with Chidori Eisou. They withstood Bijuudama. Kirin would obliterate the Hachibi.


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## Stermor (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Just gonna point out that Bijuudama isn't breaching Susano'o. So you can forget the continuous, weaker Bijuudama ever doing it.
> 
> Too many people are misled by the scale of these attacks. Just because they are bigger than Kirin doesn't mean they are stronger (or anywhere near as powerful, even).
> 
> The Hachibi's limbs were cut off with Chidori Eisou. They withstood Bijuudama. Kirin would obliterate the Hachibi.



lol are there any bijuudama's from the hachibi even called in the same range of tnt as kirin?? and does this really matter hachibi is capable of attack 100 times more powerful then kirin.. 

anyway even if the mirror protects itachi from the first bijuu damage.. the destroyed landmass alone will make itachi lose footing.. hell he might fall to his death  

itachi is not goign to survive another.. 

also hachibi survived stuff way stronger then kirin.. and there is no reason to asume he will take significant damage from kirin.. just because the hachibi's tentacles where cut excatly when needed does not mean his durability is so low.. there can be made a convincing case that bee allowed it to happen like that..


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## narutoish (Apr 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I seen nothing from Edo Itachi that puts him above Bee. He didn't show any signs of dominance as KB was easily.... EASILY holding his own without using v1 or v2, and even caught Itachi very quickly mind you with his tentacle. I have done refuted all the claims about Itachi helping Bee out, by using Bee's own words in many threads debating this very topic... I will not in this one as you will just pass over it and not say shit  about my reasoning as have everyone else.



i think a better statement would be that itachi was EASILY holding his own against bee and naruto ( who should be faster then bee) at the same time. Also when bee caught itachi, he was already in his genjutsu.



> KillerBee showed that he was superior in speed(which you all hold as Itachi's greatest asset other than MS). KillerBee also has manga knowledge so MS isn't going to be that effective, of which im about to you why.



no killerbee didn't show that he was superior in speed, it was itachi who showed that by dodging all his and naruto's attacks simultaneously. 



> Tsukuyomi- Bee can be broken out of it, jins can communicate faster between themselves and their bijuus than Tsukuyomi effects happen. This was showcased when Bee broke out of Itachi's jutsu. Plus Bee isn't weak minded so I don't think causing him massive amounts of Pain is going to put him down. Plus he has fought 2 Uchihas capable of using the MS, both have used genjutsu on him, Im sure he won't be looking straight at Itachi's eyes.
> 
> Amaterasu- KB would've sent a sword through Itachi's head from a massive distance away from the time Itachi started prepping Amaterasu(of which anyone can feel) to before he cast it, and Nagato had to save Itachi from being hit. Bee easily has the speed to outrun Itachi's Amaterasu as Sasuke was able to and Bee is clearly faster than both. Add in v1 or v2 and its overkill. Plus Bee can just block it with a tentacle and attack Itachi with the tentacle or cut it off, also he has Samahada which would without a doubt eat Amaterasu.



- bee isn't surviving tsukuyomi, even kakashi was hospitalized for a week, (unless you are saying that kakashi is weak minded)

- bee might outrun amertersu for some time, but eventually he will get caught.

- samehada had trouble absorbing a normal katon, let alone absorbing amertersu.



> Susanoo- SOT eaten by Samahada, Yata Mirror obliterated by just 1 bijuu dama or a continous bijuu dama and Itachi's(what you say) full fledge Susanoo wasn't able to tank Kirin and Itachi clearly took damage from Kirin so there is a limit to Yata Mirrors ability or else it would've been sent back in the sky, by what you all say should happen.



if bee goes full biju mode, amertersu finishes the game, otherwise the sword of tostuka can finish him.



> And Itachi's base arsenal is useless, while KB can end with any of his techniques or skills.



itachi was fighting bee without even using MS, everything he used was base.




joshhookway said:


> Killer B wins. Killer Bee can literally fully transform and fire multiple bijuudama within a second. Itachi would get pulverized even if he uses susanoo.



yeah we know he well that went the last time he tried that against sasuke whose MS wasn't even fully developed yet. 



Stermor said:


> killerbee was perfectly capable of handling itachi... even in base. goign v1/v2 would only increase his power..



more like itachi was perfectly capable of handling bee and naruto, since he was only using base as well. 



> amaterasu if it gyuki(was just playing it up) will hit if killerbee decides he needs it.. but really amaterasu hurting gyuki enough that he can't even fire a bijuudama(something sasuke couldnt prevent). and even with amaterasu they where still capable of making rational decision of taking a vacations..



actually the bijuu dama was fired before amertersu, after sasuke hit him with amertersu the only thing eight tails did was scream.



> also no killer bee is not dumb at all he was fighting minato when he was only a little older then itachi(when fighting orochimaru).. and he was fighting jounin even before the hachibi.. killer bee without a doubt is a genius.. he just has a carefree disposition because he knows he can deal with 99.99% of the shinobi in the world cassually..



i agree, I wouldn't call him dumb, but itachi is on another level when it comes to intelligence, not to mention that bee doesn't take all fights seriously.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Just gonna point out that Bijuudama isn't breaching Susano'o. So you can forget the continuous, weaker Bijuudama ever doing it



If you're talking Susanoo protected by Yata's Mirror, then you're right. However you are wrong if you're talking Susanoo _without_ said mirror.


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Just gonna point out that Bijuudama isn't breaching Susano'o. So you can forget the continuous, weaker Bijuudama ever doing it.
> 
> Too many people are misled by the scale of these attacks. Just because they are bigger than Kirin doesn't mean they are stronger (or anywhere near as powerful, even).
> 
> The Hachibi's limbs were cut off with Chidori Eisou. They withstood Bijuudama. Kirin would obliterate the Hachibi.



that's not good logic.  The power of an attack should be equated by the sum total damage of that said attack because in a shounen manga, the author does not always have to be consistent about the durability of individual body parts.  If Kishi was truly consistent with these things then we'd be seeing people's heads being split open, guts flying everywhere.

For example, white zetsu was melting at a similar rate to what sasuke's ribcage susanoo was and kakashi casually cuts white zetsus in half with his raiton blade.  Does that mean that he can cut skeletal susanoo as easily as he cuts white zetsu?

Even the Kirin feat itself proves my point, Sasuke saw itachi lying on the ground, body fully intact yet only his cloak was blown off and thought Itachi took a direct hit from kirin and was dead.  So by this argument, a shinobi with no super durability >>> Susanoo!  

Against lightning we even see that normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.

I'm sure that if bee was hit by Kirin, he would have sustained similar or less damage than he did from the bijuudama.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Probably the most important difference between them is intelligence.


 How does that effect this battle when they have limited knowledge on each other.





> And, in that respect, Itachi outclasses B handily. B is too carefree and fallible. If not for Nagato's warning and Naruto's interception, he may very well have been caught off-guard by Itachi's mid-Katon clone feint (we see a spoken exclamation point, indicating surprise.


 Exclamation marks don't mean surprise. It means strong feeling or yelling, thus meaning Bee was aggravated that someone was telling him his enemies movements when he is fully capable of reacting by himself, hell the only one to ever react to Minato.





> Kisame also managed to take him out pretty easily via Samehada's chakra-draining on the island turtle because B wasn't mindful of handling Samehada physically, something he should've known better about.


 So him killing Kisame, and taking his weapon is stupid? How, he thought Kisame was dead and Samahada wasn't pulling much chakra at one time, just a fraction here and there. Gai also disarmed Kisame and grabbed Samahada, is he dumb? no because he didn't think that Samahada returns to its user no matter what. 





> Amaterasu and Susano'o are great tools to use against B's Hachibi form. The effectiveness of Tsukuyomi is still up in the air, but whether or not it works should obviously make a big difference in Itachi's performance here.


 Amaterasu is only effective against the Hachibi and with knowledge Bee can block with a tentacle . Tsukuyomi is useless as the Hachibi can break Tsukuyomi(which takes a second to work) instantly as soon as he realizes hes in a genjutsu, of which Tsukuyomi makes evidently clear.





> I think it goes without saying that Itachi wins. It doesn't really matter if he's sick or healthy; he has the tools to defeat Killer B either way, and he's more competent than Killer B either way.






Nikushimi said:


> Just gonna point out that Bijuudama isn't breaching Susano'o. So you can forget the continuous, weaker Bijuudama ever doing it.
> 
> Too many people are misled by the scale of these attacks. Just because they are bigger than Kirin doesn't mean they are stronger (or anywhere near as powerful, even).
> 
> The Hachibi's limbs were cut off with Chidori Eisou. They withstood Bijuudama. Kirin would obliterate the Hachibi.



No but Susanoo is enveloped in the explosion thus by passing Yata Mirror.



narutoish said:


> i think a better statement would be that itachi was EASILY holding his own against bee and naruto ( who should be faster then bee) at the same time. Also when bee caught itachi, he was already in his genjutsu.


 Naruto only intercepted Itachi mid air and that was it of their battle. As the anime showed, Bee sword dance was to much for Itachi and pushed him to run and use Amaterasu.





> no killerbee didn't show that he was superior in speed, it was itachi who showed that by dodging all his and naruto's attacks simultaneously.


 W/e he wasn't even fighting Naruto





> - bee isn't surviving tsukuyomi, even kakashi was hospitalized for a week, (unless you are saying that kakashi is weak minded)


 Kakashi wasn't a perfect jin that can communicate with his bijuu outside the realm of time.





> - bee might outrun amertersu for some time, but eventually he will get caught.
> 
> - samehada had trouble absorbing a normal katon, let alone absorbing amertersu.


 It ate that katon just fine, no residual flames in the area absorbed. And Itachi will be wasting huge amounts of chakra controlling the flames.




> itachi was fighting bee without even using MS, everything he used was base.


 And he got nowhere and didn't even harm Bee. So his base arsenal is useless.


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## Atlantic Storm (Apr 2, 2013)

Please use the edit function instead of triple posting.

Thanks.


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## Goobtachi (Apr 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> How does that effect this battle when they have limited knowledge on each other.



Maybe the ability to adapt, to create different scenariis  in your head and act accordingly, trying to create an opening and such, using tactics in order to know what your opponents' abilities are...

Intelligence=/=knowledge.

I won't even bother addressing the other points because of this not so educated statement you just made(i hope mods don't consider this as flame-baiting or flaming since i tried to be as polite as i could).


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## narutoish (Apr 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Naruto only intercepted Itachi mid air and that was it of their battle.



well I admit that it was just a skirmish, but there was not speed advantage for either side, but itachi was able to dodge bee's attacks from behind while fighting/talking with naruto.



> As the anime showed, Bee sword dance was to much for Itachi and pushed him to run and use Amaterasu.



well in the manga page it was shown that itachi was able to block multiple hits with just a kunai, then he retreated, but then again, no one can go against bee's sword dance with just a kunai, so he had to retreat.



> Kakashi wasn't a perfect jin that can communicate with his bijuu outside the realm of time.



I meant that if bee is hit with tsukuyomi then he can't just shake off the effects just because he is strong minded as you claimed.



> It ate that katon just fine, no residual flames in the area absorbed. And Itachi will be wasting huge amounts of chakra controlling the flames.



whether it can eat the flames is a tricky question, however, samehada didn't eat katon just fine, it had trouble.



> And he got nowhere and didn't even harm Bee. So his base arsenal is useless.



so i guess he wins with MS.


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## KeyofMiracles (Apr 2, 2013)

If Bee goes Full Bijuu, Totsuka or Amaterasu get him. If he stays in V2 mode and gets up close he risks getting hit with Tsukuyomi (Yes it will work on a Perfect Jin as the Genjutsu only lasts 1 second, not enough time for the Bijuu to get the Jin out, not to mention only those with Itachi's blood can break it), still Amaterasu but he won't be an easy target, and he cant get through Susanoo w/o Bijuu Dama.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Nikushimi (Apr 2, 2013)

Stermor said:


> lol are there any bijuudama's from the hachibi even called in the same range of tnt as kirin?? and does this really matter hachibi is capable of attack 100 times more powerful then kirin..



Such as...?

Based on feats, Kirin is more powerful than anything the Hachibi has to offer. This isn't going by scale, mind you; Bijuudama is clearly bigger, but that doesn't mean it's stronger.

As I've pointed out, the Hachibi has sustained damage from attacks far less powerful than Kirin, and endured Bijuudama with comparatively minor damage.



> anyway even if the mirror protects itachi from the first bijuu damage.. the destroyed landmass alone will make itachi lose footing.. hell he might fall to his death



Itachi survived falling from the top of the Uchiha Hideout, and standard Bijuudama have never carved out landmasses with a depth anywhere comparable to that.



> itachi is not goign to survive another..
> 
> also hachibi survived stuff way stronger then kirin.. and there is no reason to asume he will take significant damage from kirin.. just because the hachibi's tentacles where cut excatly when needed does not mean his durability is so low.. there can be made a convincing case that bee allowed it to happen like that..



How can B "allow it to happen"? Why? What evidence is there that he did?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you're talking Susanoo protected by Yata's Mirror, then you're right. However you are wrong if you're talking Susanoo _without_ said mirror.



I'm not sure what the difference is, since we have no feats for the mirror other than blocking explosive tags and Sasuke's Kusanagi. The best durability feat for Itachi's Susano'o remains its protection against Kirin; whether or not the mirror was used doesn't change that.



ueharakk said:


> that's not good logic.  The power of an attack should be equated by the sum total damage of that said attack because in a shounen manga, the author does not always have to be consistent about the durability of individual body parts.  If Kishi was truly consistent with these things then we'd be seeing people's heads being split open, guts flying everywhere.



I'm sure you must understand that this is also an arbitrary point of view that you are expressing.

I would rather err on the side of caution and not make the assumption of conflating scale with power; there are a lot of attacks with high penetrative power that do not yield an expansive area of effect. The best example is probably Sandaime Raikage's Nukite, which is stronger than FRS.

While I realize that Kirin is not perfectly analogous to that, my point stands; the attack with the bigger "boom" is not always the stronger one, and the feats have pretty consistently supported that Kirin is stronger than Bijuudama (using the Hachibi as a mutual point of comparison).



> For example, white zetsu was melting at a similar rate to what sasuke's ribcage susanoo was and kakashi casually cuts white zetsus in half with his raiton blade.  Does that mean that he can cut skeletal susanoo as easily as he cuts white zetsu?



Durability has nothing to do with resistance to acid, so I don't see the problem here.

It's also impossible to say if they were melting at the same rate given that this is a manga and we don't really have an explicit time frame for either incident.



> Even the Kirin feat itself proves my point, Sasuke saw itachi lying on the ground, body fully intact yet only his cloak was blown off and thought Itachi took a direct hit from kirin and was dead.  So by this argument, a shinobi with no super durability >>> Susanoo!



We don't really know what went through Sasuke's mind at that point; he may have figured that the brunt of the attack had missed Itachi but assumed he was dead anyway. Or maybe he wasn't even thinking about it clearly, given how exhausted he was. Can't say.



> Against lightning we even see that normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.



It's hard to say if those shinobi even took a direct hit or were just in the foreground. Those lightning bolts also don't appear to be on a scale anywhere near Kirin, nor do they exhibit the same destructive power, nor do we have any other feats by which to compare them with Kirin.



> I'm sure that if bee was hit by Kirin, he would have sustained similar or less damage than he did from the bijuudama.



Yet Sasuke's Chidori Eisou, A's karate chop, and Sandaime Raikage's Nukite all did more damage on their respective areas of effect than Bijuudama.



IchLiebe said:


> How does that effect this battle when they have limited knowledge on each other.



Because one slip-up on B's part could cost him his life, and he's shown that he is vulnerable to making careless mistakes; Itachi is much more on his guard and mindful of the unexpected.

Also, I think the manga knowledge stipulation gives them both effectively full knowledge, anyway; there isn't much Itachi needs to know about B in the first place, and he has already seen all of B's more nuanced tricks (partial transformation, Genjutsu cancellation, 7-sword style, Bijuudama). B has also seen the majority of what Itachi can do (Amaterasu, Susano'o, Totsuka no Tsurugi, Kage Bunshin) and knows about the threat of Tsukuyomi; I would not expect there to be a significant deficit in intel on either side.



> Exclamation marks don't mean surprise. It means strong feeling or yelling, thus meaning Bee was aggravated that someone was telling him his enemies movements when he is fully capable of reacting by himself, hell the only one to ever react to Minato.



That doesn't fit with B's personality at all. It's very clear based on the layout of the panel that B was caught by surprise.

I was also slightly off the mark:

normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.

There was a question mark as well, so it goes without saying that B was surprised.

No one's doubting that B is fast, but getting caught from a blind spot by a clone feint is something that can happen to anyone.



> So him killing Kisame, and taking his weapon is stupid? How, he thought Kisame was dead and Samahada wasn't pulling much chakra at one time, just a fraction here and there.



That's not what I meant; I was referring to this:

normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.

Kisame was able to sneak up and get a hold of Samehada. A mistake like that against Itachi would be a decisive end to this fight.



> Gai also disarmed Kisame and grabbed Samahada, is he dumb? no because he didn't think that Samahada returns to its user no matter what.



Gai is _notoriously_ dumb; just not necessarily for that reason.



> Amaterasu is only effective against the Hachibi and with knowledge Bee can block with a tentacle .



Sure, but then he has to discard the Hachibi form, which he implied took a lot out of him after using that trick against Sasuke.



> Tsukuyomi is useless as the Hachibi can break Tsukuyomi(which takes a second to work) instantly as soon as he realizes hes in a genjutsu, of which Tsukuyomi makes evidently clear.



That remains to be seen; a time-compressed Tsukuyomi has never been tested against a perfect Jinchuuriki like B. Naruto, a perfect Jinchuuriki himself, cautioned B against getting hit with it.



> No but Susanoo is enveloped in the explosion thus by passing Yata Mirror.



Hachibi was enveloped by Bijuudama and its tentacles withstood the blast; Susano'o is a lot more durable than those tentacles have shown to be.



> Naruto only intercepted Itachi mid air and that was it of their battle. As the anime showed, Bee sword dance was to much for Itachi and pushed him to run and use Amaterasu.



Considering B is so much stronger than Itachi and Itachi wasn't even armed...that's hardly surprising.

The swordplay wouldn't make a difference in an all-out battle between these two, anyway; there is far more they can bring to the table that would make such an exchange irrelevant.



> And he got nowhere and didn't even harm Bee. So his base arsenal is useless.



Itachi harmed B with Housenka Tsumabeni. B was actually the one who failed to land a single hit on Itachi, even with Naruto's help.


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## eyeknockout (Apr 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> .
> 
> *Bijuu bomb solos- Kirin was able to destroy Itachi's Susanoo and Itachi wouldn't have lived without Yata Mirror. *
> 
> *Also Bee could just spit Ink all over Susanoo thus sealing Itachi inside the Susanoo.*



...really?...no, sick itachi wins extreme difficulty, healthy itachi wins high difficulty


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## ueharakk (Apr 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm sure you must understand that this is also an arbitrary point of view that you are expressing.
> 
> I would rather err on the side of caution and not make the assumption of conflating scale with power; there are a lot of attacks with high penetrative power that do not yield an expansive area of effect. The best example is probably Sandaime Raikage's Nukite, which is stronger than FRS.


The sandaime raikage example is a good example that supports your point that a bigger boom =/= more damage.  However that's not what I was arguing.  I was arguing that when a person is hit by an attack, we can judge the attacks strength by the total damage the attack does to that person, not by the logic of flying body parts because it's a shounen manga.  



Nikushimi said:


> While I realize that Kirin is not perfectly analogous to that, my point stands; the attack with the bigger "boom" is not always the stronger one, and the feats have pretty consistently supported that Kirin is stronger than Bijuudama (using the Hachibi as a mutual point of comparison).


I don't think that kirin being stronger than a bijuudama is supported by feats.  We saw danzou's enhanced fuuton blow open the back of a lvl3 susanoo, a fuuton that is far weaker than FRS which in turn is far weaker than a bijuudama.  So by that logic, bijuudama > Kirin.

I don't know how you get to Kirin doing more damage to the hachibi than a bijuudama would.  Sasuke shape manipulated his raiton into a thin spear which is what allowed him to cut the hachibi's tentacles, Kirin is just a giant lightning bolt which would be more along the lines of what gedo mazou used on the fodders except just much larger.




Nikushimi said:


> Durability has nothing to do with resistance to acid, so I don't see the problem here.
> 
> It's also impossible to say if they were melting at the same rate given that this is a manga and we don't really have an explicit time frame for either incident.


um... durability does have to do with resistance to any attack in narutoverse.  It's true that some attacks like acid or burning do more damage than blunt force damage, however if the same attack is used on two people it does give us a good way of establishing which is more durable.  





Nikushimi said:


> It's hard to say if those shinobi even took a direct hit or were just in the foreground. Those lightning bolts also don't appear to be on a scale anywhere near Kirin, nor do they exhibit the same destructive power, nor do we have any other feats by which to compare them with Kirin.


I think the scan is pretty clear that those shinobi's were directly hit as it can't be coincidence that all 3 are surrounded by the bolt intended for them.  The bolts are not on the scale of kirin, however neither are the shinobi on the scale of the hachibi, thus we extrapolate both and walla, hachibi sustains bijuudama level damage or less.



Yet Sasuke's Chidori Eisou, A's karate chop, and Sandaime Raikage's Nukite all did more damage on their respective areas of effect than Bijuudama.



Because one slip-up on B's part could cost him his life, and he's shown that he is vulnerable to making careless mistakes; Itachi is much more on his guard and mindful of the unexpected.

Also, I think the manga knowledge stipulation gives them both effectively full knowledge, anyway; there isn't much Itachi needs to know about B in the first place, and he has already seen all of B's more nuanced tricks (partial transformation, Genjutsu cancellation, 7-sword style, Bijuudama). B has also seen the majority of what Itachi can do (Amaterasu, Susano'o, Totsuka no Tsurugi, Kage Bunshin) and knows about the threat of Tsukuyomi; I would not expect there to be a significant deficit in intel on either side.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 2, 2013)

narutoish said:


> i think a better statement would be that itachi was EASILY holding his own against bee and naruto ( who should be faster then bee) at the same time. Also when bee caught itachi, he was already in his genjutsu.


 Yes that is a genjutsu that tricks on small scale  without the person noticing its how Itachi does bunshin. Tsukuyomi is useless since its visual effects are immediate and noticeable and jins and their bijuus can communicate outside the realm of time whereas Tsukuyomi doesn't...understand. Kakashi seen he was in the genjutsu before any pain was inflicted...understand?





> no killerbee didn't show that he was superior in speed, it was itachi who showed that by dodging all his and naruto's attacks simultaneously.



Naruto
normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves. - Here Nagato says above you, Naruto replies "I know" and intercepts, 
normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves. - Itachi tries a karate chop, Naruto dodges. all the mean  while Naruto is....talking casually.

Itachi was forced back after making a move and getting overwhelmed by Bee entering the fight and draining his chakra
normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.  After this there is no interaction between Naruto and Itachi.

normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves. - Itachi "behind you" Bee "I know!(as he is frustrated)OK!!(indicating further frustration)" KillerBee is the man the Yellow Flash of Konoha didn't get the drop on, give credit where credit is due. Itachi isn't superior to Bee in speed nor reaction speed, as Bee reacted by swing Samahada which drained Itachis chakra(of course Itachi is Edo with unlimited chakra, but in the scenario given he is not)again. This Itachi uses some bullshit Katon of which Bee blocked barehanded and caught Itachi's bunshin with a tentacle and noticed he was in a genjutsu before Itachi said anything
normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.

normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves. -here you can see the crows are fully fledged and Hachibi said wake up before they turned into kunai 

normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves. -Then Bee brought out Samahada, and his swords and blocked every single shuriken  Itachi has failed at every attempt, he has not once capitalized on any opening if there was an opening, at all in this entire fight.

normal shinobi don't get vaporized or even bleed from getting hit by a lighting bold far bigger than themselves.

I see no kunai in Itachi's hand whatso ever just him using the well known dojutsu Uchiha Art of Run.


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## narutoish (Apr 2, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes that is a genjutsu that tricks on small scale  without the person noticing its how Itachi does bunshin. Tsukuyomi is useless since its visual effects are immediate and noticeable and jins and their bijuus can communicate outside the realm of time whereas Tsukuyomi doesn't...understand. Kakashi seen he was in the genjutsu before any pain was inflicted...understand?



you are telling me what I already know, see when I mentioned genjutsu, I was replying to your argument that itachi was caught by bee by stating that it was just a genjutsu. we were discussing speed and not whether genjutsu would work on bee or not, so I understand very well.



> Naruto
> summonings - Here Nagato says above you, Naruto replies "I know" and intercepts,



naruto doesn't just intercept, he tries a punch of his own, which gets causally deflected by itachi.



> summonings - Itachi tries a karate chop, Naruto dodges. all the mean  while Naruto is....talking casually.



first of all lets take out the "talking casually" part since it was a back and forth conversation, and if anyone, itachi should be the one at a disadvantage because of the surprise news of sasuke. 

now then, on the same page at the lower right panel, itachi forces naruto back with a kick while bee is attacking from behind. 



> Itachi was forced back after making a move and getting overwhelmed by Bee entering the fight and draining his chakra
> summonings  After this there is no interaction between Naruto and Itachi.



actually, on the very first panel, itachi again casually blocks naruto's punch and right after that dodges a slash from bee without even looking back. if anyone was amazing in that page it was itachi. also he wasn't forced back, he wasn't in fully control and he retreated so they could talk. he wouldn't have anything to worry about anyway since he was an edo. 



> summonings - Itachi "behind you" Bee "I know!(as he is frustrated)OK!!(indicating further frustration)" KillerBee is the man the Yellow Flash of Konoha didn't get the drop on, give credit where credit is due. Itachi isn't superior to Bee in speed nor reaction speed, as Bee reacted by swing Samahada which drained Itachis chakra(of course Itachi is Edo with unlimited chakra, but in the scenario given he is not)again. This Itachi uses some bullshit Katon of which Bee blocked barehanded and caught Itachi's bunshin with a tentacle and noticed he was in a genjutsu before Itachi said anything
> summonings
> 
> summonings -here you can see the crows are fully fledged and Hachibi said wake up before they turned into kunai
> ...



oh i must've missed something, in which of the links you provided throughout you post did naruto and bee even landed a hit? 

itachi was dancing around both of them and none of them landed a hit, meaning itachi was superior, understand? 

summonings

I see no kunai in Itachi's hand whatso ever just him using the well known dojutsu Uchiha Art of Run.[/QUOTE]

i am pretty sure those marks mean a small clash, likely a kunai unless you think he was blocking with hands.


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## Seon (Apr 3, 2013)

Bee claimed that Sasuke was "one of the toughest dudes he's ever faced" at the time, Sasuke was inexperienced and had no susano'o. Itachi having Totsuka is critical.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Apr 3, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm not sure what the difference is, since we have no feats for the mirror other than blocking explosive tags and Sasuke's Kusanagi. The best durability feat for Itachi's Susano'o remains its protection against Kirin; whether or not the mirror was used doesn't change that.



Susanoo is the same for all, apart from items seemingly. What we get is the body has some good durability, better with each stage. However none of which lead us to believe it can tank the Bijuu-Dama.

The mirror allows Susanoo to reflect all attacks, so with that mirror it can probably tank almost anything, even a Bijuu-Dama.


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## IchLiebe (Apr 5, 2013)

narutoish said:


> you are telling me what I already know, see when I mentioned genjutsu, I was replying to your argument that itachi was caught by bee by stating that it was just a genjutsu. we were discussing speed and not whether genjutsu would work on bee or not, so I understand very well.


 Why would you purposefully sacrifice a clone and waste chakra? If that clone could've dodge that attack then it would have, not purposefully get hit, so the real Itachi could perform an attack behind the clone using the clone as the attack, whereas Itachi should've been able to get behind Bee here or atleast make a bit better offensive.





> naruto doesn't just intercept, he tries a punch of his own, which gets causally deflected by itachi.


 No Itachi pushed his arm away and blocked the kick, then followed up with a karate chop up close just barely inches away from Naruto's face... and misses.





> first of all lets take out the "talking casually" part since it was a back and forth conversation, and if anyone, itachi should be the one at a disadvantage because of the surprise news of sasuke.


 So now your saying if anyone was acting casually it was Itachi, who initiated an attack before anyone else of which the jins reacted perfectly to.





> now then, on the same page at the lower right panel, itachi forces naruto back with a kick while bee is attacking from behind.


 Yet Naruto blocked it and only went back a few feet while Itachi was forced to retreat.





> actually, on the very first panel, itachi again casually blocks naruto's punch and right after that dodges a slash from bee without even looking back. if anyone was amazing in that page it was itachi. also he wasn't forced back, he wasn't in fully control and he retreated so they could talk. he wouldn't have anything to worry about anyway since he was an edo.


 Naruto's arm was strecthed out before that panel and the panel below it shows Naruto stabilizing his balance from the result of the kick, no way Naruto could've come forward with a punch without pushing off. But he was forced back, Samahada drained chakra in that panel, may not show it but it did, and an alive Itachi can't afford to get drained by samahada even one time or his arsenal quickly loses most of its power.





> oh i must've missed something, in which of the links you provided throughout you post did naruto and bee even landed a hit?


 Technically yes, Itachi blocked Narutos, but Samahada drained Itachi's chakra twice and in this scenario Itachi would already be about dead just from that.





> itachi was dancing around both of them and none of them landed a hit, meaning itachi was superior, understand?


 Bee was able to capture the clone, drain Itachi twice, and force him back using his swordplay. Of course Itachi wasn't hit, he spent most the fight running.





> Byakugou
> 
> I see no kunai in Itachi's hand whatso ever just him using the well known dojutsu Uchiha Art of Run.
> 
> ...


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## crisler (Apr 5, 2013)

i'm pretty sure at this point, itachi going for kill regardless of his health state would win against all the people at least 5/10 except a few shinobis

these are, hashirama/madara/minato/nagato/naruto/sasuke/obito/kabuto.

in fact...i don't see what puts bee on such a level anyways. the sasuke that bee destroyed couple of times is sasuke who couldn't even use amaterasu, (only at the end did sasuke use), and coudln't even use susanoo: and his genjutsu is shitty as we all know.

replace him with itachi who's better than sasuke (in bee arc) in every possible fields except chakra pool and some ninjutsu, we have a very clear answer.


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## Stermor (Apr 5, 2013)

crisler said:


> i'm pretty sure at this point, itachi going for kill regardless of his health state would win against all the people at least 5/10 except a few shinobis
> 
> these are, hashirama/madara/minato/nagato/naruto/sasuke/obito/kabuto.
> 
> ...



you mean with the hachibi?? with destructive and durability off the charts?? or the top tier speed and reactions, or the extremly usefull jutsu's he has?? or the kenjutsu style that can't be read by the sharingan?? 

itachi is better then killerbee in genjutsu.. thats it.. there are things itachi might be better in it.. but genjutsu is the only clear cut winner for itachi.. 

bee is atleast on the same lvl as itachi.. and just more suited for this battle..


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## ueharakk (Apr 5, 2013)

crisler said:


> i'm pretty sure at this point, itachi going for kill regardless of his health state would win against all the people at least 5/10 except a few shinobis
> 
> these are, hashirama/madara/minato/nagato/naruto/sasuke/obito/kabuto.
> 
> ...


yeah  if we replace Sasuke with Itachi who's better than sasuke in all possible fields, then we do have a clear answer which is:  he does better than Sasuke.

How much better?  That's to be determined by feats and arguments.

If bee goes full hachibi at a distance greater than 100 meters, I don't see how itachi is winning this.  Totsuka isn't stabbing him from there, bee can block amaterasu from that distance with a tentacle and I don't see how itachi is surviving machinegun dama even with his susanoo (since each one is most likely stronger than Kirin).  To make matters worse, bee can move while charging the attack.

If it's close range, then I can see itachi taking it more times due to possibly stabbing bee with totsuka while he chargest bijuudama, amaterasu not being blocked, and crow bunshin feint (which isn't working at large distances).


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## Edo Madara (Mar 15, 2014)

Healthy Itachi vs Bee

Tsukuyomi don't work on perfect Jin, like others said Bee and 8 have very good teamwork and communication, they'll break out of it. Bee ability to grow and remove tentacles from any part of his body is good counter against Enton and Itachi's low stamina is big disadvantage against powerhouse like Bee.

Totsuka and yata mirror must have limits, Itachi said it himself that every jutsu have weakness, Bee's bijuudama firepowers will certainly destroy itachi along with Susanoo.


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## Blu-ray (Mar 16, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> Healthy Itachi vs Bee
> 
> Tsukuyomi don't work on perfect Jin, like others said Bee and 8 have very good teamwork and communication, they'll break out of it. Bee ability to grow and remove tentacles from any part of his body is good counter against Enton and Itachi's low stamina is big disadvantage against powerhouse like Bee.
> 
> Totsuka and yata mirror must have limits, Itachi said it himself that every jutsu have weakness, Bee's bijuudama firepowers will certainly destroy itachi along with Susanoo.



Tsukuyomi should work, considering it should be too fast for Bee to break out of. He was even trapped in Sasuke's and Itachi's normal illusions for a brief amount of time. By the time Gyuuki breaks him out of Tsukuyomi, he would be in a coma.

Limits they may have, but you don't get to set what those limits are. They aren't jutsu by the way, and even if something has a weakness, raw power doesn't have to be that weakness.


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## Rocky (Mar 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Hachibi's limbs were cut off with Chidori Eisou. They withstood Bijuudama. Kirin would obliterate the Hachibi.




You're just taking advantage of Kishimoto's inconsistencies. There are more that work in favor of Bijuudama.

For example, if we make the (obvious) assumption that Kiba's giant Garōga is a more powerful or penetrative attack than Minato's mere Kunai swing, or even Obito's shuriken, then that means it should easily be capable of severing one of the Hachibi's limbs. However, Garōga was only able to dent one Rashōmon gate, while the mini Bijuudama used by Yonbi Naruto completely obliterated three. Bee's Bijuudama are stronger than KN4's, so he can do the same to Rashōmon.

That is an inconsistency. Just as Minato's Rasengan, despite it's mechanics, was able to remain completely formed on a severed arm. Just as Amaterasu couldn't burn through armor, yet it could instantly incinerate fire-proof toad stomachs. These happen, and I don't think it's fair to Bijuudama to focus in on a low end feat. It has much better feats, such as the Rashōmon feat and flattening Hashirama's Mokuton creatures (and the forest around them).

By the way, Kirin is sort of Sasuke's "super Chidori," imo, while Naruto's Rasenshuriken is his "super Rasengan." The techniques do different things, but are overall equal in power, just like the original Rasengan & Chidori. I consider Bijuudama on a level above both of those techniques.


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## Cognitios (Mar 16, 2014)

Scenario 1
Killer Bee takes this 7/10, Itachi's stamina cannot compete with Bee's. Bijuu Dama beats his Susanoo, which he can't hold for very long, as shown with his fight with sasuke. Genjutsu doesn't work on Bee, his speed is high and he can get out of it quickly enough to destroy sasuke. Someone who at that time had better taijutsu than a sick itachi. Amaterasu doesn't work on Bee, as per canon. And the Swords will give Itachi some trouble, just because he can see them doesn't mean he can catch up with them in his sick state. Killer Bee is one of the best MS counters we have seen in the series, with Itachi like this his only chance is Sealing Bee as soon as he can with totsuka sword. 
Scenario 2 
Itachi takes this 9/10
I'm giving Bee that 1/10 for the reasons above, but Itachi's still going to need to seal him. The only difference in this scenario is his chakra pool, so he can keep up Susanoo longer, giving him more time to seal.
P.S. Yata Mirror will not work on bijuu dama, it counters the 5 elements, bijuudama is just too much fire power for it to counter, especially continuous Bijuu Dama


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Killer B with manga knowledge, has knowledge of pretty much all of Itachi's tricks, except Izanami, which wouldn't effect him anyway. Killer B has the abilities and Jutsu to get around Itachi's powers. He can avoid Genjutsu relying on the partner method and avoid eye-contact for Tsukuyomi. He can avoid Amaterasu w/ speed and if the flames do hit him, he has his Kwarimi. Samehada absorbs Susano'o, and without it's defense plenty of Jutsu B has can waste Itachi. I don't think in ether Scenario Itachi can win this, simply due to the knowledge stipulation.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 16, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You're just taking advantage of Kishimoto's inconsistencies. There are more that work in favor of Bijuudama.



We don't just get to throw out evidence because it's inconsistent.

That defeats the entire point of using inductive reasoning.



> For example, if we make the (obvious) assumption that Kiba's giant Garōga is a more powerful or penetrative attack than Minato's mere Kunai swing, or even Obito's shuriken, then that means it should easily be capable of severing one of the Hachibi's limbs. However, Garōga was only able to dent one Rashōmon gate, while the mini Bijuudama used by Yonbi Naruto completely obliterated three. Bee's Bijuudama are stronger than KN4's, so he can do the same to Rashōmon.



Problem: There's no reason to believe Garouga is sharper than Minato's kunai, even if it does have more force.

As far as I know, Kiba and Akamaru don't have any sharp protrusions on their bodies when they use that attack, so they are basically tackling into their target while spinning rapidly to tear through it. A kunai like Minato's or a shuriken like Obito's would be a clean slice with a very thin edge. So that example doesn't hold.



> That is an inconsistency. Just as Minato's Rasengan, despite it's mechanics, was able to remain completely formed on a severed arm. Just as Amaterasu couldn't burn through armor, yet it could instantly incinerate fire-proof toad stomachs. These happen, and I don't think it's fair to Bijuudama to focus in on a low end feat.



I'm not focusing on low-end feats; the Hachibi surviving its own Bijuudama is pretty much just a feat--it isn't the only time it happened, either.

I don't see what your Rasengan and Amaterasu examples have to do with this, either.



> It has much better feats, such as the Rashōmon feat and flattening Hashirama's Mokuton creatures (and the forest around them).



Only if you put the cart before the horse and ignore the powerscaling implied by the sum of ALL these feats.

It still makes sense if you just assume that the Hachibi Bijuu has greater damage soak than Rashoumon and Hashirama's Mokuton, and that Kirin is more penetrative than Bijuudama.



> By the way, Kirin is sort of Sasuke's "super Chidori," imo, while Naruto's Rasenshuriken is his "super Rasengan." The techniques do different things, but are overall equal in power, just like the original Rasengan & Chidori. I consider Bijuudama on a level above both of those techniques.



FRS isn't anywhere near Kirin's level--it's something Naruto can use pretty casually now, too.

Bijuudama is the original basis for Rasengan while Kirin is a natural, much more powerful version of Chidori; they seem like the parallels, although arguments like this rarely yield a substantive discussion.



ueharakk said:


> The sandaime raikage example is a good example that supports your point that a bigger boom =/= more damage.  However that's not what I was arguing.  I was arguing that when a person is hit by an attack, we can judge the attacks strength by the total damage the attack does to that person, not by the logic of flying body parts because it's a shounen manga.



I must be missing the point, then, because it seems like if an attack does less damage, it must not be as forceful or as sharp/penetrative. I apply that principle when judging Kirin alongside Bijuudama, through their feats.



> I don't think that kirin being stronger than a bijuudama is supported by feats.  We saw danzou's enhanced fuuton blow open the back of a lvl3 susanoo, a fuuton that is far weaker than FRS which in turn is far weaker than a bijuudama.  So by that logic, bijuudama > Kirin.



Uh...we have no idea how strong/sharp Danzou's Fuuton barrage was, so for you to just arbitrarily state that FRS is stronger/sharper compromises that entire chain. We have no way of measuring how much of a difference Baku's suction made, either, but Danzou was stated to be taking advantage of it to increase the power of his attacks.

In addition, those Fuuton slices only tore a hole in a single layer of Susano'o; they didn't reach Sasuke, much less put him on the floor with injuries all over his body and his top layer of clothing gone.



> I don't know how you get to Kirin doing more damage to the hachibi than a bijuudama would.



The same way Eisou took off a limb and Bijuudama didn't--Kirin is sharper and penetrates easier.



> Sasuke shape manipulated his raiton into a thin spear which is what allowed him to cut the hachibi's tentacles, Kirin is just a giant lightning bolt which would be more along the lines of what gedo mazou used on the fodders except just much larger.



If you look carefully, you'll notice that Kirin has a giant horn on its head.

Kirins (the mythological kind) are actually famous for having them; they're sorta like Chinese unicorns.



> um... durability does have to do with resistance to any attack in narutoverse.  It's true that some attacks like acid or burning do more damage than blunt force damage, however if the same attack is used on two people it does give us a good way of establishing which is more durable.



Unless one is sharp and one isn't, because sharpness determines how much area of the target is putting up resistance to the force imparted upon contact.

That's why a knife goes through a person's body easier than...say...a car.



> I think the scan is pretty clear that those shinobi's were directly hit as it can't be coincidence that all 3 are surrounded by the bolt intended for them.  The bolts are not on the scale of kirin, however neither are the shinobi on the scale of the hachibi, thus we extrapolate both and walla, hachibi sustains bijuudama level damage or less.



That's totally fallacious, though, because there's nothing to link the shinobi to the Hachibi or the lightning bolts to Kirin by proportion; as you have said, they are decidedly unequal, so there is no legitimate basis for your comparison. What you are arguing boils down to "the Hachibi isn't equal to the shinobi and Kirin isn't equal to the lightning bolts, so if the lightning bolts didn't hurt the shinobi, then Kirin wouldn't hurt the Hachibi," which makes absolutely no sense.

"X=/=A Y=/=B, A>B, therefore X>Y?"

That reasoning doesn't hold.



> Yet Sasuke's Chidori Eisou, A's karate chop, and Sandaime Raikage's Nukite all did more damage on their respective areas of effect than Bijuudama.



Precisely. So they are more penetrative.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susanoo is the same for all, apart from items seemingly. What we get is the body has some good durability, better with each stage. However none of which lead us to believe it can tank the Bijuu-Dama.
> 
> The mirror allows Susanoo to reflect all attacks, so with that mirror it can probably tank almost anything, even a Bijuu-Dama.



A hype statement or two doesn't leave us with much in the way of discussion.

Having said that, I don't think Susano'o would need the mirror to protect the user from an ordinary Bijuudama.



Turrin said:


> Killer B with manga knowledge, has knowledge of pretty much all of Itachi's tricks, except Izanami, which wouldn't effect him anyway. Killer B has the abilities and Jutsu to get around Itachi's powers. He can avoid Genjutsu relying on the partner method and avoid eye-contact for Tsukuyomi. He can avoid Amaterasu w/ speed and if the flames do hit him, he has his Kwarimi. Samehada absorbs Susano'o, and without it's defense plenty of Jutsu B has can waste Itachi. I don't think in ether Scenario Itachi can win this, simply due to the knowledge stipulation.



Sure, if Killer B were even half as smart/cunning as Itachi and the Totsuka Blade magically couldn't seal him...


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## Trojan (Mar 16, 2014)

B wins. Itachi can't do any thing agains 1 TBB, let alone 5.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 16, 2014)

New Folder said:


> B wins. Itachi can't do any thing agains 1 TBB, let alone 5.



Susano'o protects him.

Or Itachi could just interrupt the Bijuudama with Amaterasu to the face, and destroy B's Hachibi form like Sasuke did.


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## Trojan (Mar 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Susano'o protects him.
> 
> Or Itachi could just interrupt the Bijuudama with Amaterasu to the face, and destroy B's Hachibi form like Sasuke did.



No,  susanoo will get destroyed completely. 

B has already trolled Amaterasu, and he can troll it again as he did before.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 16, 2014)

New Folder said:


> No,  susanoo will get destroyed completely.



The Susano'o ribcage protected Sasuke from the Raikage's karate chop, which went all the way through the Hachibi's horn, which withstood Bijuudama. Susano'o won't be breached by Bijuudama.



> B has already trolled Amaterasu, and he can troll it again as he did before.



B's Hachibi form was destroyed by Amaterasu and B was reverted back to base form.

That's even worse than what Samehada did.


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## Trojan (Mar 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The Susano'o ribcage protected Sasuke from the Raikage's karate chop, which went all the way through the Hachibi's horn, which withstood Bijuudama. Susano'o won't be breached by Bijuudama.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



- dear God, that just horrible. 

- B did that so he can get away from A, and do his stuff freely. Also, that was the first time against the Amatersu, he now knows about it, so it won't be the same. U_U


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## Bonly (Mar 16, 2014)

As long as B is fast enough to stop Ama or do something to stop his LoS, B could win this by simply outlasting Itachi.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> \
> Sure, if Killer B were even half as smart/cunning as Itachi .


Yup intelligence is really important in this series:




> and the Totsuka Blade magically couldn't seal him...


Touts forgot about this part of the manga:


You must be right.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 16, 2014)

If he had Sasuke's knowledge prior facing Bee, Itachi would be stomped. 

Though this makes it interesting. Tsukuyomi was shown to be useless and Bee has a counter to Amaterasu. Itachi would probably end up going to his highest Susanoo level really quickly.

I can see Bee winning this if he's clever. Using a lot of ink clones to attack Itachi from all directions then smashing through Susanoo with a boned Lariat before hitting Itachi himself... or just using his tentacle to get Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 16, 2014)

Fight starts out like in the manga, and ends pretty quick when Itachi switches on MS, he either oneshots with Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu.

Susano'o easily overpowers anything up to full Bijuu mode, and full bijuumode is just a bigger target for Amaterasu or Totsuka to OHKO.

B is out of his league here.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 16, 2014)

Itachi defeats Killer B quite handily. 
Any MS technique is capable of putting the guy down; the worst thing he could do is enter Bijuu Mode, actually. 

At that point, he'd become a walking target and gets taken down with one attack... either Amaterasu or Totsuka.


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## SharinganKisame (Mar 16, 2014)

starting distance 20m? then Killer Bee wins with a lariat blitz right in the beggining, Itachi loses.


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## N4GAmbush (Mar 17, 2014)

IchLiebe didn't I closed this thread (and your mouth) the last time it was made...   Anyways, Itachi wins this easily.

What's indisputable is the fact that Itachi was able to get behind Bee from 20m away before Killer Bee could react. He may have known that Itachi was behind him in the first scan but if he had time to react wouldn't he have done it before Itachi was behind him? 

In the second scan I presented where Nagato says, "Above You!", Naruto clearly sees Itachi and is ready to react as he is fast enough to intercept Itachi but Bee is still in shock from the speed, represented by the "!!?".

My point being that Itachi has demonstrated twice that he is faster than Killer Bee as he caught him off guard once while Naruto was able to keep up and got behind him before Bee could stop him in another instance. 

As far as tsukuyomi goes, In order for Gyuki to experience the same dilation of time that Killer Bee would, he would also need to be under the effects of Tsukuyomi, would he not? If so, Gyuki will be tormented as well as Killer Bee and neither could help the other escape. However, this is not the case as Gyuki was never subjected to the jutsu in the first place and so his perception of time will continue to function as it normally does, independent of the condition Bee is in. 

In reality, even if we consider the yet unproven hypothesis that Killer Bee and Gyuki have a linked consciousness, Killer Bee would be experiencing events that seem as though they are days in a matter of seconds and Gyuki(who wouldn't be subjected to Tsukuyomi) would process these thoughts the instant they happened in real time. 

Without sufficient prep, Gyuki wouldn't have time to awaken Killer Bee before the jutsu ends and even Naruto said that it would be over if Bee was caught. Tsukuomi is over almost the moment it is initiated and so reacting to it would be a much harder feat than even reacting to lightning. To conclude, there is no way possible for Bee to escape and so Itachi could win this with just Tsukuyomi alone.


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## Dat Uchiha Itachi (Mar 18, 2014)

The Solo King wins with no difficulty. Totsuka GG


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## IchLiebe (Mar 18, 2014)

N4GAmbush said:


> IchLiebe didn't I closed this thread (and your mouth) the last time it was made...   Anyways, Itachi wins this easily.


AWWW HELL TO DA FUCK NAW 

Firt of all Sunny, this thread was made before yer profile...understand what im putting down?

Second of all, enlighten me to your response so i can utterly destroy it in every fashion.

Third....MY MOUTH? You just got yourself an enemy and he's an asshole.



> What's indisputable is the fact that Itachi was able to get behind Bee from 20m away before Killer Bee could react. He may have known that Itachi was behind him in the first scan but if he had time to react wouldn't he have done it before Itachi was behind him?


What's indisputable is that Itachi couldn't take advantage of that situation due to Bee's superior reactions. Or he might've felt that given him his back and separating him from his team mate was a good move as it was. Also note that Bee was also able to counter Minato when Minato had Bee's back, truly unsuspecting of the attack. Then add into the fact that Bee was able defend, counter, or evade everything Itachi did in that fight.



> In the second scan I presented where Nagato says, "Above You!", Naruto clearly sees Itachi and is ready to react as he is fast enough to intercept Itachi but Bee is still in shock from the speed, represented by the "!!?".


Maybe because he wasn't anticipating Itachi being that fast and was surprised that he was faster than expected...but the fact remains  Bee "I know, OK"...end of argument.



> My point being that Itachi has demonstrated twice that he is faster than Killer Bee as he caught him off guard once while Naruto was able to keep up and got behind him before Bee could stop him in another instance.


Yet Bee reacted just fine and it was Itachi that was forced back and forced to use MS. Itachi sure as hell didn't push Bee...at all.





> As far as tsukuyomi goes, In order for Gyuki to experience the same dilation of time that Killer Bee would, he would also need to be under the effects of Tsukuyomi, would he not?


 No because jins and their bijuu can communicate outside the realm of time. And since Tsukuyomi is time altering, and changes the environment to a high degree then Gyuki can free Bee.



> If so, Gyuki will be tormented as well as Killer Bee and neither could help the other escape. However, this is not the case as Gyuki was never subjected to the jutsu in the first place and so his perception of time will continue to function as it normally does, independent of the condition Bee is in.


Yet your analysis is so flawed. 





> In reality, even if we consider the yet unproven hypothesis that Killer Bee and Gyuki have a linked consciousness,


Now see this is why I stopped responding to you(you call it shutting my mouth).

Are you fucking SERIOUS????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 





> Killer Bee would be experiencing events that seem as though they are days in a matter of seconds and Gyuki(who wouldn't be subjected to Tsukuyomi) would process these thoughts the instant they happened in real time.


 Yes if jins weren't able to communicate with their bijuu outside the realm of time that Itachi alters.





> Without sufficient prep, Gyuki wouldn't have time to awaken Killer Bee before the jutsu ends and even Naruto said that it would be over if Bee was caught. Tsukuomi is over almost the moment it is initiated and so reacting to it would be a much harder feat than even reacting to lightning. To conclude, there is no way possible for Bee to escape and so Itachi could win this with just Tsukuyomi alone.


First of all Naruto had no idea what Bee is capable of and his genjutsu defense.

Also iuf the bijuu sees what happens to the jins at all times wouldn't Gyuki(just under this basis alone) be able to break Bee out of Tsukuyomi?



BTW my mouth wasn't shut, i was just offline for a while. can't argue against Itachi all the time.


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## Ashi (Mar 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Just gonna point out that Bijuudama isn't breaching Susano'o. So you can forget the continuous, weaker Bijuudama ever doing it.
> 
> Too many people are misled by the scale of these attacks. Just because they are bigger than Kirin doesn't mean they are stronger (or anywhere near as powerful, even).
> 
> The Hachibi's limbs were cut off with Chidori Eisou. They withstood Bijuudama. Kirin would obliterate the Hachibi.



Nikushimi's wise words as usual


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## Ashi (Mar 18, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes that is a genjutsu that tricks on small scale  without the person noticing its how Itachi does bunshin. Tsukuyomi is useless since its visual effects are immediate and noticeable and jins and their bijuus can communicate outside the realm of time whereas Tsukuyomi doesn't...understand. Kakashi seen he was in the genjutsu before any pain was inflicted...understand?
> 
> Naruto
> said - Here Nagato says above you, Naruto replies "I know" and intercepts,
> ...



Can you prove he was saying he understood in frustration not suprise?


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## Super Chief (Mar 19, 2014)

Sick Itachi loses every time. Healthy Itachi is about equal to Killer B.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 19, 2014)

Tensa, if someone was like "Tensa, 2+2=4" and you reply the same way Bee did and it would be frustration not surprise or atleast in Bee's case not 100% surprise. Maybe he was surprised that Itachi chose to attack from the air which is rather dumb.


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## Edo Madara (Mar 20, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Tsukuyomi should work, considering it should be too fast for Bee to break out of. He was even trapped in Sasuke's and Itachi's normal illusions for a brief amount of time. By the time Gyuuki breaks him out of Tsukuyomi, he would be in a coma.



Bijuu can heal their Jin though



> Limits they may have, but you don't get to set what those limits are. They aren't jutsu by the way, and even if something has a weakness, raw power doesn't have to be that weakness.



They're still jutsu, and I still think Itachi's Susanoo won't survive bijuudama firepowers that Bee have.


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