# The Truth About Kakashi



## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

There's been a ton of threads about Kakashi recently; and the main thing seems to be whether Kakashi >=< the Sannin or Kages. So I figured I'd give my thoughts. 

Let me start by saying that I feel the 2 most important attributes outside of overwhelming Raw Power (Alien BS); is versatility and exp/knowledge. Kakashi logically has both of these things in spades; he's mastered over 1,000 Jutsu; and he's taken part in so many battles throughout the manga that he has knowledge on almost every Jutsu and the chance to come up with a weakness. On paper Kakashi should be High-Kage; and this is without even getting into Kamui, which is one of the more broken Jutsu in the manga. So I get why his fans like him so much and rate him so highly. Believe me guys I get it.

However, unfortunately Kakashi does not perform in practice as he should on paper. He just doesn't. I've talked about Kakashi vs Zabuza across three threads today, but it really does come down to this for me. As much as I also like Zabuza, and would say he is one of the strongest Jonin in the Manga; he is simply hot garbage in comparison to Kages and Sannin alike (or anyone else on that level). And Kishimoto consistently has Kakashi struggled with this guy, which unfortunately strong conflicts with what I said above about Kakashi being OP.

Logically Kakashi with 1,000+ Jutsu and 5 Elements should be able to pull out an easy counter to this dude's mist. I mean what the fuck Kakashi can use Fuuton but can't use the most basic application of it to blow shit away.... With 1,000 Jutsu the guy doesn't have a tracking Technique that doesn't rely on taking major injuries to get his blood on Zabuza? Doesn't have standard non eye-based Genjutsu in those 1,000 Techniques? Doesn't have a Technique with big enough AOE to cover the area of the Mist? etc...

I could keep going, but basically Kakashi struggling with Zabuza, means that those 1,000 Jutsu are pretty much garbage against even Skilled Jonin; and unfortunately the manga does very little to dissuade this notion in Kakashi's other fights, with it always coming back to Raiton Ninjutsu or Sharingan, in all of his matches. 

The other problem is that there is no known Kage that we have ever seen struggle with Jonin before, like Kakashi struggles time and time again with Zabuza. In-fact it's the exact opposite, we see Kages wrecking Skilled Jonin left and right. Orochimaru wrecked P1 Kakashi with just his killer intent for fucks sake. Jiraiya wrecked Konon's ass, and she is at worst Top Jonin; yeah I know he had a counter to her and knew her moveset, but Kakashi knew Zabuza's moveset and still didn't have a counter having to rely on other people in the WA.

And I know people are saying well Kakashi only struggles with Zabuza so much because he counters Sharingan, but that is also problematic what Kage have we seen whose main triumph card gets countered by a Jonin? When have we seen Sage-Mode countered by a Jonin? Actually on the contrary we've had tlons of Jonin cuck down to Sage-Mode as something far out of their league. When have we seen Tsunade's Byakugo countered by a Jonin? On the contrary we saw it enable her to beat the piss out of a Top Jonin in Kabuto. 

----

So what's the point of all this? The point is that Kakashi is poorly written character whose abilities on paper seem much stronger then they are in practice. I know Kakashi-fans are going to hate on me for saying that and i'm really sorry guys, but it's the truth. Kishimoto gave Kakashi a-lot of busted abilities and spot-light but he clearly didn't want Kakashi during the Manga to be all that strong, and the evidence is in his struggles against Zabuza continuing in the WA.

Everyone in the Kakashi camp needs to be honest and admit; that when Kakashi matched up against Zabuza in the WA, the expectation was for Kakashi to rape Zabuza; showing his growth in power or at least demonstrating a quick painless counter to the mist, showing his versatility. I know I expected that to happen. Not Kakashi needing help to take him down.

But the moment that happened, it should be clear that Kakashi hadn't grown much from P1 to P2 in Kishimoto's mind outside Sharingan; which still can be countered by a Jonin, that would be raped by every existing Kage and Sannin.

Again i'm sorry. but this is the truth that needs to be accepted on this forum. Though you can rejoice that your savor Kodachi will probably make Boruto-Kakashi Juubi-Jinchuuriki Tier with Purple Lightening at least.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Jul 21, 2019)

I like how your opinion on Kakashi is the truth about him. Sasori is a Kage level fighter and got countered by Chiyo, even if he always had the upper hand until PIS set it. He probably shouldn't have struggled as much but he did. Tsunade did struggle vs Kabuto, as opposed to what you are saying.

Match-ups are important. Scenarios are important as well.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Soul said:


> I like how your opinion on Kakashi is the truth about him. Sasori is a Kage level fighter and got countered by Chiyo, even if he always had the upper hand until PIS set it. He probably shouldn't have struggled as much but he did. Tsunade did struggle vs Kabuto, as opposed to what you are saying.
> 
> Match-ups are important. Scenarios are important as well.


Correction Chiyo + Sakura + Prep gave Sasori difficulty. Chiyo + Sakura + Prep would rape Zabuza.

Correction Tsunade who was Rusty and suffering from blood phobia struggled with Kabuto; and when she recovered she raped him

Match ups are important. Show me a real match up Soul where any Non-Handicapped Kage struggled with a single character on Zabuza's level 1v1 though. Pro-Tip you can't.

There's a reason why we don't match Fubuki  vs Sandaime-Raikage in the NBD, despite the fact that Fubuki has a tool Samehada which is a good counter to Raiton Amor; because he still gets no diff'd by Sandaime Raikage. And that's my point, match up matters, but no Kage is struggling with Zabuza level characters due to match up alone.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Android (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Though you can rejoice that your savor Kodachi will probably make Boruto-Kakashi Juubi-Jinchuuriki Tier with Purple Lightening at least.


This is just savage.


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## Hardcore (Jul 21, 2019)

don't like him as a character, so have nothing to deny him being a poorly written character, but no one cares about that here

you make a thread in a battledome with a title "truth about kakashi"

yet you purposely neglect the following

>Kakashi being able to fight V2 Jins
>Kakashi physically matching and fighting Obito (the latter deliberately losing in the end by accepting a chidori doesn't take this fact away) 

sounds very biased if you ask me


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## Santoryu (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The other problem is that there is no known Kage that we have ever seen struggle with Jonin before.


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

Soul said:


> Tsunade did struggle vs Kabuto, as opposed to what you are saying.
> 
> Match-ups are important. Scenarios are important as well.



First you try to counter with a 2v1 example which included someone with advanced intel on puppetry with emotional baggage to add

Then you try to add to this a drugged, rusty blood phobia tsunade in base....as if it means anything at all


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> don't like him as a character, so have nothing to deny him being a poorly written character, but no one cares about that here
> 
> you make a thread in a battledome with a title "truth about kakashi"
> 
> ...


So i'm bias because i'm not talking about how Kakashi accomplished a whole lot of nothing against the Jin; and "won" a staged fight?

Which has nothing to do with my point that he struggled with a character no Kage/Sannin would; and that his abilities don't work as well as they should on paper

Please try and stay on topic; and not fling baseless insults around in place of real arguments. Thanks


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Thanks that helps illustrate my point further, when a real Kage fights a Jonin, even one stronger then Zabuza, Kishimoto has to handicap them to struggle. Where was Kakashi's handicap against Zabuza?


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## Santoryu (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Show me a Non Handicapped Kage.



I refuted your point.

Now  you're shifting goalposts. 

Or is it perhaps that context is important in Tsunade's case?

But not in Kakashi's case when he and his squad had to deal with 6 other legendary swordsman as well as Haku.


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> I refuted your point.
> 
> Now  you're shifting goalposts.
> 
> ...



You refuted nothing, literally nothing. His response was a counter that you aren't willing to face. Tsunade was handicapped and in no other instance would this been longer than one panel.


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## Santoryu (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Thanks that helps illustrate my point further, when a real Kage fights a Jonin, even one stronger then Zabuza, Kishimoto has to handicap them to struggle. Where was Kakashi's handicap against Zabuza?




Stop shifting goalposts. You know what you typed.



In the wave Arc he was out of shape, had to worry about protecting 4 fodders, and his opponent got saved by outside interference on multiple occasions.

In the war arc:

His squad had to deal with the strongest swordsman generation and in a direct clash Kakashi still one shot both Zabuza and Kisame's former Master. And even when Haku saved Zabuza and created an opening for Zabuza, Kakashi still survived. Kakashi created a stratergy for his squad.


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## Soul (Jul 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> First you try to counter with a 2v1 example which included someone with advanced intel on puppetry with emotional baggage to add
> 
> Then you try to add to this a drugged, rusty blood phobia tsunade in base....as if it means anything at all



It means that scenarios matter. Location, match-up, etc. Stating no Kage can be put in a tough spot by an elite Jounin is misguided.



Turrin said:


> Show me a real match up Soul where any Non-Handicapped Kage struggled with a single character on Zabuza's level 1v1 though. Pro-Tip you can't.



It really depends what a Jounin and a Kage is.
Hidan for example can give problems to Kage level opponents beyond his strength. Just list your low-mid Kages and high Jounins and I can pair up scenarios where this happens.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HappyBurrito (Jul 21, 2019)

*What makes it true?*


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> And Kishimoto consistently has Kakashi struggled with this guy, which unfortunately strong conflicts with what I said above about Kakashi being OP..



Zabuza has literally never touched Kakashi without outside assistance(relying on Haku to grab on to him, or relying on Kakashi having to defend Team 7/Tazuna). When in direct 1v1 fights, Kakashi dominated him on 3 different occasions, even one paneling him in the war arc.

I could care less about the general opinion on Kakashi or where he ranks among "kage levels". Part 1 Kakashi isn't kage level regardless, but still was leaps and bounds above Zabuza, and this idea that he "struggled" with him needs to die.

Kishimoto showed on 3 different occasions how much better Kakashi was. Across the 3 fights, he showed examples of *Link Removed* in his one supposed specialty(kenjutsu), then *Link Removed* him in *Link Removed* and *Link Removed* his *Link Removed* ninjutsu superiority, and *Link Removed* with genjutsu.



Edit: Fuck the formatting of this forum. Last 2 portions shouldn't be hyperlinked, but whatever, point still gets across.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

Soul said:


> It means that scenarios matter. Location, match-up, etc. Stating no Kage can be put in a tough spot by an elite Jounin is misguided.



No that is twisting what the OP was saying. And I think you know that


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Stop shifting goalposts. You know what you typed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Look man it's obvious from the entire OP what I'm saying; that no other Kage would struggle with Zabuza level Ninja; under normal conditions. You can argue circumstance effected Kakashi's performance if you want, but don't try and twist the message of OP, and then complain to me about shifting goal posts. That's highly dishonest argumentation.

Anyway to address the rest of this, it's not like Kakashi had to deal with any of the other Swordsman while engaging Zabuza in the WA; he struggled with Zabuza because of Demonic Mist countering his Sharingan. You know I both know it and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that fact.



Soul said:


> It really depends what a Jounin and a Kage is.
> Hidan for example can give problems to Kage level opponents beyond his strength. Just list your low-mid Kages and high Jounins and I can pair up scenarios where this happens.


That's fair which is why I gave Zabuza as the example. Another example would be Asuma, who I'd consider around the level of Zabuza. But pretty much any Ninja around that level is Low/No diffed by any Kage.


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## Ayala (Jul 21, 2019)

Lol it's this again... You guys sound like broken records, really. 

 Zabuza is strong alright, much stronger than your regular Jonin level, and the Mist a broken tech which is hard hard or outright impossible to fight without the right skillset.

Zabuza likely hides his own scent, the manga has shown that it's possible, so trying to sniff him out is not an option. 

AOE techs don't cover the whole place, and Zabuza could be anywhere, even behind his back, so stopping there and throwing a random elemental in a direction might simply be a misstep which leads to his death. 

We had a whole division who didn't know what to do or how to deal with Zabuza, we had Madara too not knowing what to do about it other than stand there surrounded in Susano'o. So the right skillset is rare to find. 

Kakashi was going head to head with 2 of the strongest Pain paths, without using Kamui. A similar duo handed an asswhoopin to none other than SM Naruto. But you feel the need to bring up the Zabuza case as the example that Kakashi didn't become stronger, when the manga confirms he became stronger by the simple fact that he became Hokage even after losing his strongest asset.

It's old and outdated, please abbandon this argument already...


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## Santoryu (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man it's obvious from the entire OP what I'm saying; that no other Kage would struggle with Zabuza level Ninja; under normal conditions. You can argue circumstance effected Kakashi's performance if you want, but don't try and twist the message of OP, and then complain to me about shifting goal posts. That's highly dishonest argumentation.
> 
> Anyway to address the rest of this, it's not like Kakashi had to deal with any of the other Swordsman while engaging Zabuza in the WA; he struggled with Zabuza because of Demonic Mist countering his Sharingan. You know I both know it and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that fact.




Before I respond to the content of this I suggest you actually re-read your own opening and see it isn't as precise as you're making it out to be. It was your fault for not being more precise with your wording.


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Kakashi was going head to head with 2 of the strongest Pain paths, without using Kamui. A similar duo handed an asswhoopin to none other than SM Naruto.



Implying even WA Kakashi wouldnt get negg diff by Deva alone


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## Ayala (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man it's obvious from the entire OP what I'm saying; that no other Kage would struggle with Zabuza level Ninja;



Just little time ago you were arguing how Zabuza and 2 fodders would beat Minato


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Zabuza has literally never touched Kakashi without outside assistance(relying on Haku to grab on to him, or relying on Kakashi having to defend Team 7/Tazuna). When in direct 1v1 fights, Kakashi dominated him on 3 different occasions, even one paneling him in the war arc.
> 
> I could care less about the general opinion on Kakashi or where he ranks among "kage levels". Part 1 Kakashi isn't kage level regardless, but still was leaps and bounds above Zabuza, and this idea that he "struggled" with him needs to die.
> 
> ...


Zabuza beat Kakashi in their first encounter with Water Prison; and Naruto and Sasuke had to save him for him to win.

In there second encounter he had to suffer heavy damage so he could get the better of Zabuza

And in their third encounter, he flat out asked for help so he could deal with him quickly.

And if Kishimoto wanted to show Kakashi had grown much stronger then Zabuza; he would have had Kakashi w/o help destroy Zabuza; as that was thee perfect moment to show Kakashi growth, but he didn't do that and instead had him reach out for help against him. And i'm sorry but no amount of trying to twist the history of their battles will change that.


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2019)

I agree with the premise, but there is a great deal of hypocrisy here when looking at your other arguments
and how you view "feats"... 

not that you can see the post, but whatever...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Just little time ago you were arguing how Zabuza and 2 fodders would beat Minato


A Team of Ninja combined can beat a stronger Ninja; this is different then a Kage struggling with a Jonin 1v1


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## Ayala (Jul 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Implying even WA Kakashi wouldnt get negg diff by Deva alone



Well a weaker version didn't


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Well a weaker version didn't



I'd make the thread and you wouldnt show up



Better to admit it now


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Before I respond to the content of this I suggest you actually re-read your own opening and see it isn't as precise as you're making it out to be. It was your fault for not being more precise with your wording.


Don't care if you misread the OP. Address the actual point of it or don't bother.


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## Ayala (Jul 21, 2019)

Also Turrin consider this: 

Kishi had a story to write, a story which he has to fill with tension and make enjoyable for the reader. You'd think it'd be entertaining for the reader to see Kakashi blitz Zabuza in 2 pages and end the match there? Cause we know he is capable of doing this, as he did it later on. 

We know he got stronger because the manga confirms he got stronger, no need to go through all this struggle to try and demonstrate the contrary.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

@Santoryu

The difference is that Onoki had back up and still lost to Madara. While in this case Kakashi needed back up to beat Edo-Zabuza.



Ayala said:


> Also Turrin consider this:
> 
> Kishi had a story to write, a story which he has to fill with tension and make enjoyable for the reader. You'd think it'd be entertaining for the reader to see Kakashi blitz Zabuza in 2 pages and end the match there? Cause we know he is capable of doing this, as he did it later on.
> 
> We know he got stronger because the manga confirms he got stronger, no need to go through all this struggle to try and demonstrate the contrary.


Yes it would have been very entertaining for me to watch Kakashi destroy Zabuza; and showing tremendous growth since the beginning of the series. And Kakashi never blitz'd Zabuza before he could cast Demonic Mist.

The Manga doesn't confirm that he got much stronger outside Sharingan


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## Ayala (Jul 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> I'd make the thread and you wouldnt show up
> 
> 
> 
> Better to admit it now



We have enough Kakashi threads already... And i know how it would go already: 

You and homies would just bust in ignoring canon and saying how Deva rapes here and shits there it's a known process already 

So please don't ignore canon, and make yet another salty thread


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## Santoryu (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Santoryu
> 
> The difference is that Onoki had back up and still lost to Madara. While in this case *Kakashi needed back up to beat Edo-Zabuza.*



You can't prove that


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Zabuza beat Kakashi in their first encounter with Water Prison; and Naruto and Sasuke had to save him for him to win.
> 
> In there second encounter he had to suffer heavy damage so he could get the better of Zabuza
> 
> ...



When you respond to my post but ignore practically everything in it...


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 21, 2019)

Kinda hard to take anything else you say seriously when you keep repeating that Kakashi "struggled" with Zabuza when that clearly wasn't true at all. None of the times that they faced each other were true 1v1 fights. The closest thing was their second fight on the bridge. Kakashi let himself get tagged to have his dogs track Zabuza, had him dead to rights had Haku not intervened, and then he proceeded to bitch slap Zabuza until he had two useless arms and no chance of winning. The mist was Zabuza's only chance and once it failed, he got destroyed. Kakashi played him like a fiddle. Stop acting like a clown with this "struggled against Zabuza" nonsense.

Reactions: Like 7


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## Shazam (Jul 21, 2019)

Ayala said:


> We have enough Kakashi threads already... And i know how it would go already:
> 
> You and homies would just bust in ignoring canon and saying how Deva rapes here and shits there it's a known process already
> 
> So please don't ignore canon, and make yet another salty thread



It's amazing how people think Jiraiya is more overrated but then you got guys like you saying Kakashi can beat Deva, is faster than KCM Naruto and can beat SM Naruto lmao

I'll make the thread


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> You can't prove that


Yes I can; Kakashi's only means for dealing with a Tensei is Kamui; which he can't use due to the Mist.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> When you respond to my post but ignore practically everything in it...


Because none of what you said was true.


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## Ayala (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Santoryu
> 
> 
> Yes it would have been very entertaining





That's not the answer i expected. 

Anyways, the common Naruto reader enjoys some drama and tension here and there, or Naruto wouldn't be the sob story it is. 

Kakashi could have Raikiri'd Zabuza the moment they came in contact (as it's just what he did later on anyways), yet he waited there waiting for Zabuza to pull the Mist, fully knowing how troublesome the Mist would be. 

Yes he got stronger as confirmed by him taking the Hokage seat without Sharingan, why you need to struggle so hard

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Kinda hard to take anything else you say seriously when you keep repeating that Kakashi "struggled" with Zabuza when that clearly wasn't true at all. None of the times that they faced each other were true 1v1 fights. The closest thing was their second fight on the bridge. Kakashi let himself get tagged to have his dogs track Zabuza, had him dead to rights had Haku not intervened, and then he proceeded to bitch slap Zabuza until he had two useless arms and no chance of winning. The mist was Zabuza's only chance and once it failed, he got destroyed. Kakashi played him like a fiddle. Stop acting like a clown with this "struggled against Zabuza" nonsense.


Your argument can basically be boiled down to he didn't struggled with Zabuza, he just struggled with the Mist lol. Which it's like yeah the Mist is Zabuza's Jutsu....


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Ayala said:


> That's not the answer i expected.
> 
> Anyways, the common Naruto reader enjoys some drama and tension here and there, or Naruto wouldn't be the sob story it is.
> 
> ...


There is drama in Kakashi wrecking his old adversary and showing his growth. As I said in the OP, I actually expected that to happen when Kakashi matched up against Zabuza and was surprised it did not.

And Zabuza could have cast the Mist immediately too; it's meaningless argumentation. What matters, is what we were shown; and it's that Zabuza was still a tough enemy for Kakashi even in the WA.

And Yes Kakashi got stronger after the End of the Manga; we are talking about Manga Kakashi though


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## Santoryu (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes I can; Kakashi's only means for dealing with a Tensei is Kamui; which he can't use due to the Mist.



That's not proof:

Kakashi can Kamui quicker than Zabuza can set up.
Kakashi can self warp
Even in the mist, Kakashi could see a little bit at times and the mist won't last forever.
An out of shape Part 1 Kakashi already overcame the mist and beat a living Zabuza.
Did you forget about dogs and Kakashi's sense of smell?


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your argument can basically be boiled down to he didn't struggled with Zabuza, he just struggled with the Mist lol. Which it's like yeah the Mist is Zabuza's Jutsu....


Except he didn't struggle with the mist... he let himself get tagged and he *countered* the mist with his dogs. How is that struggling? So Obito lets Kakashi Raikiri his heart and that negates their fight but when Kakashi _lets himself get tagged_ he was "struggling"?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 21, 2019)

Soul said:


> I like how your opinion on Kakashi is the truth about him. Sasori is a Kage level fighter and got countered by Chiyo, even if he always had the upper hand until PIS set it. He probably shouldn't have struggled as much but he did. Tsunade did struggle vs Kabuto, as opposed to what you are saying.
> 
> Match-ups are important. Scenarios are important as well.


I've heard you post similar thoughts on different threads over the past couple days. 

Unfortunately they don't matter for a good margin of posters here, all that matters to them is how the characters' strength was portrayed, even if by only a small sample (for instance hiruzen, who's strength was only ever commented on by a few Konoha ninja, never true enemies).


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2019)

Shazam said:


> It's amazing how people think Jiraiya is more overrated


it's all about itachi. Don't waste your time making another thread. 


~Kakashi~ said:


> When you respond to my post but ignore practically everything in it...


struggled with the same problem regarding his nonsense about Tobirama's alleged speed...


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> That's not proof:
> 
> Kakashi can Kamui quicker than Zabuza can set up.
> Kakashi can self warp
> ...


Kakashi can't take his forehead protector off, change his 3T to Mangekyo, and use Mangekyo faster then Zabuza can cast Demonic Mist.

Self warp is meaningless, and Kakashi couldn't see well enough to use Sharingan, which is all that matters.

Kakashi overcame the Mist; with a move that would no longer work since Edo-Zabuza has knowledge of it now; and will just kill the Ninja Hounds if they come out.

And yes it is evidence; Kakashi relied on Yamanaka, Nara, and Sai, because he couldn't beat Zabuza on his own; and we know why he needed each of them. He needed a sensor because Ninja Hounds wouldn't work again now that Zabuza had knowledge; he needed the Nara-Clan member and Sai, because he can't overcome Edo-Regen with his move-set outside of Kamui which is countered by the Mist. It's obvious why Kakashi fell back on that plan


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> Except he didn't struggle with the mist... he let himself get tagged and he *countered* the mist with his dogs. How is that struggling? So Obito lets Kakashi Raikiri his heart and that negates their fight but when Kakashi _lets himself get tagged_ he was "struggling"?


Look the first time Zabuza used the Mist, it enabled him to out clone feint Kakashi; and catch him in Water Prison. He was defeated at that point; and need to be saved by Naruto and Sasuke / Plot.

The second time Zabuza used the Mist; Kakashi had to endure heavy injuries to counter it

Both of those instances were a clear struggle for Kakashi, with him barely winning (the first time only due to help)

And in the final scenario of the War he specifically asked for help dealing with the Mist; which shows how much of a threat Zabuza and the Mist was too him, and implies he would have ether lost without help or it would have at least been a difficult fight. I mean can you tell me how Kakashi would even beat Edo-Zabuza without help; he's got no Jutsu that can even overcome Edo-Regen besides Kamui which gets countered.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Speedyamell (Jul 21, 2019)

This scan just shows a rusty, out of shape, haemophobic tsunade backhanding Kabuto to the back of the neck. Which was the moment tsunade paralysed him with rashinsho by the way.. (a point where he was vulnerable, and one where she could have easily killed him had she taken him seriously)

Only further establishing the Gap between such kage and even the best jonin.
Even with said jonin being jacked up on steroids


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Because none of what you said was true.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Gif doesn't change the facts


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## ~Kakashi~ (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Gif doesn't change the facts



Literally everything I stated in my post happened in the manga I even provided scans for like 90% of it. Didn't think I needed to do it for everything. You just ignored all of it. I dunno what else to tell you.


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## Semiotic Sacrilege (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look the first time Zabuza used the Mist, it enabled him to out clone feint Kakashi; and catch him in Water Prison. He was defeated at that point; and need to be saved by Naruto and Sasuke / Plot.
> 
> The second time Zabuza used the Mist; Kakashi had to endure heavy injuries to counter it
> 
> ...



What a strange hill to die on. Funny how you ignore the context of every single one of these encounters. Kakashi having to protect a civilian and three genin their first two encounters and Zabuza being undead and NOT ALONE during a WAR the third encounter. Like I said, the closest thing to a 1v1 was their second fight on the bridge. Even then he still had to protect Sakura and the bridge builder but Zabuza still got destroyed. There was no struggle. Kakashi was not "heavily" injured and he had enough stamina left over after that fight to form _dozens _of shadow clones. You can go on and on about Kakashi struggling against Zabuza but it will never be true. Kakashi took care of Zabuza AND the other swordsman during the war and then he went on to fight V2's and Obito without a break. But he struggled soooo hard against Zabuza, right?  

How about you put some other Kage in Kakashi's place during the war and see if *every single one of them* would have done better in his place. Do all of them have a move that could counter the mist? Can they all come up with a plan to get around the mist and save their comrades? You're making some brilliant points if we were to remove all context from these encounters! Brilliant stuff!

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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 21, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> I refuted your point.
> 
> Now  you're *shifting goalposts.*


 

This is basically what @Turrin does sometimes.

Earlier we are discussing Kakashi tracking down Zabuza during the WA but then changes the goalposts to how every other kage level would fare against Zabuza instead of how they would have tracked him down in the exact same situation Kakashi was in, while also ignoring the DB and official scans which never state that blood is required for Ninken to track Zabuza down, only to do so accurately so that they wouldn't miss him(Why? miss him and attack any of the other people on the bridge instead)



> *Or is it perhaps that context is important in Tsunade's case?
> 
> But not in Kakashi's case when he and his squad had to deal with 6 other legendary swordsman as well as Haku.*



You just ended Turrins NF Career in this thread.


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## Eliyua23 (Jul 21, 2019)

It’s true , it’s damn true 

Kakashi has two things capping him 

One his poor stamina 

Two not having Uchiha Blood/and only one sharingan eye disallows him from using the MS to its fullest capabilities and we see these things cause a hindrance to Kakashi throughout the manga , also from a narrative perspective he takes the role of the Piccalo of the series where he is a caretaker mentor who cannot outshine the hero as all of the arcs are for the progression of the MC’s in DBZ case it was Goku/Gohan/Vegeta in Naruto case NarutoSasuke and even secondary young characters like Gaara/Sakura/Shikamaru now you do have other caretakers who serve this purpose but in addition to being caretakers they also serve as benchmarks for the hero to reach (Sannin , Itachi/Minato) so they are hype tools for Heroes to overcome .

Now let’s look at actual events that happened in the manga like Statement/Feats

1. During the middle of Shippuden Base Naruto with FRS is stared by Kakashi himself to be stronger than he is 

2. Kakashi is stated to not be ready to lead the village over Tsunade 

3. Kakashi after holding his own against 2 Realms states his performance doesn’t hold a candle to Jiraiya 

4. As soon as Tsunade leaves her comatose state she is reinserted as Hokage meaning she was still > Kakashi post pain arc 

5. Kakashi struggles with Zabuza during the WA

6. After that he really doesn’t have any real impressive feats outside of DMS

To me everything that was shown displays Kakashi as weaker than the Sannin , weaker than Itachi and Sasuke/Naruto post Hebi/FRS now in the Boruto manga he’ll have to powerup due to the power scaling but as of now he should be placed at Low Kage at best .

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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Literally everything I stated in my post happened in the manga I even provided scans for like 90% of it. Didn't think I needed to do it for everything. You just ignored all of it. I dunno what else to tell you.


But it didn't...


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## Speedyamell (Jul 21, 2019)

Okay @Turrin you've made good points. But I'm not about to come here and say kakashi can't beat zabuza lol. Yes. I agree that characters like the stronger kage and the sannin won't have as much issues against someone like zabuza, but it's not right to just say kakashi can't win..
Even if the mist comes out, kakashi can do a number of things like kamui himself out of the mist and to a safer position, and use his dogs or his own nose to point out where zabuza is in the mist and snipe him.
It just so happened that utilizing the help of others was a faster and less taxing way to get the job done in the WA

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## Symmetry (Jul 21, 2019)

Let me throw my hat in the ring. 


This is more directed at kakashi fans (he’s one of my top five so I guess I count)

@Santoryu @Mad Scientist 



I disagree with the notion here that kakashi isn’t kage level. He was kage level the second he was able to keep his sharingan active without falling down after using it. That’s that. He became low kage instantly. 

As his stamina increased he pushed into mid kage, and then the war said fuck it and amped his stamina to god levels. 


But, that’s it. That’s what has been getting buffed, his stamina. Not his speed, not his strength, his stamina. 

Which isn’t a bad thing, since he went from worst stamina to best stamina ever, propelling him well Into mid kage, kamui pushing the envelope even further. The only reason he wasn’t kage at the beginning was not haveing  average kage level stamina, 
But in the war he got beyond average kage level stamina. 


But his speed and strength didn’t change too much, but I’m willing to say it did a little bit. 


The V2 Jin’s thing is just silly. Not only do we have no idea what happened, but there was a distinct lack of collateral damage, something that kn4 brought in spades. So either the Nona didn’t do much or they are weaker then kn4. There’s also a difference between stalling and avoiding vs trying to beat anyways. 


Zabuza can’t tag kakashi and he also fend off agaisnt V2 Jin’s of the same power of kn4, not gonna happen.


I disagree with the underlying message Turin is saying in that kakashi has jounin speed or such, that’s stupid. But I don’t see why to put him any higher then hebi sasuke in speed, which is not bad, not bad at all. That’s actually really good, plus his intelligence puts him at high mid kage for me. But he doesn’t hit very hard. What has been consistent through literally ever variant of kakashi is that he needs a clone feint raikiri to end things. 


Issue is, this becomes less viable the higher you go up in the kage ladder. For example it works fine on Mei or konan, but does little to A4 tsunade, Orochimaru and such.

And other kage have ways to stop it from happening, like sage sensing of sage naruto and Jman, or gaara auto sand. 


Basically, if you survive the first clone feint, your good, because kakashi won’t get off one if he tried and failed once before. Then it just becomes kamui or gg. This has become a constant in kakashi’s later battles, like deva or  Kakazu  Both times he failed to even attempt it. And then, we see Zabuza cuck it with Los blocks. 

This also poses an issue for kakashi, because if someone has a lot of Los blockers then this is an issue.


I can see kakashi beating hebi sasuke, base Jman, even sick itachi and the like, whether with a clone feint or outlasting or some other method. 

What I don’t see is kakashi beating high kage, although he would give some a run for their money. Like I don’t think A4 rapes kakashi. I think kakashi would survive for a bit, and throw some attacks in and have a spotlight on him for a bit. 


But I don’t see him breaking into that high kage spot, although he gets close. His amazing stamina allowed him to outlast every mid kage, and his clown feints are a serious problem in mid kage, and defensive kamui, the kamui he actually does use IC, is the biggest lol nope in the series.


To me, he’s the mid kage  king. 






But I think often times people try to boost him farther then this, and to me he just can’t be. Maybe if he did a little more on his own I’d be convinced, but he never really got the spotlight in a 1 vs 1 battle, something I hate kishimoto for because kakashi is one of my favs and he deserved that. Like why did Zabuza tag him? That was dumb. 

What makes kakashi’s speed better from immortals arc to WA? As I said the V2 Jin’s thing isn’t valid. I re watched kn4 vs Orochimaru to see kn4’s power, and simple roars we’re creating craters. Why did this not happen against kakashi? Why was TBB not shown with the V2 Jin’s? Kakashi and gai were used for the age old trope of hey I’m weaker then the enemy but I’ll buy time for the main character to get their big amp and save the day. 


Like when piccolo stalled frieza for the spirit bomb in DBZ. It’s an age old trope, and it doesn’t help that the V2 Jin’s were weaker then Naruto’s V2 jin form. 

Although let’s be real, no one who is anywhere near Zabuza would have lasted against those V2 Jin’s, so get this Zabuza tier WA kakashi shit out of my face please.

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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Semiotic Sacrilege said:


> What a strange hill to die on. Funny how you ignore the context of every single one of these encounters. Kakashi having to protect a civilian and three genin their first two encounters and Zabuza being undead and NOT ALONE during a WAR the third encounter. Like I said, the closest thing to a 1v1 was their second fight on the bridge. Even then he still had to protect Sakura and the bridge builder but Zabuza still got destroyed. There was no struggle. Kakashi was not "heavily" injured and he had enough stamina left over after that fight to form _dozens _of shadow clones. You can go on and on about Kakashi struggling against Zabuza but it will never be true. Kakashi took care of Zabuza AND the other swordsman during the war and then he went on to fight V2's and Obito without a break. But he struggled soooo hard against Zabuza, right?
> 
> How about you put some other Kage in Kakashi's place during the war and see if *every single one of them* would have done better in his place. Do all of them have a move that could counter the mist? Can they all come up with a plan to get around the mist and save their comrades? You're making some brilliant points if we were to remove all context from these encounters! Brilliant stuff!


Kakashi lost to Zabuza because he was out feinted not because he was protecting the Genin

And he needed to heavily injure himself to counter the Mist the second time, not because he was protecting Genin

And the other swordsman didn't attack Kakashi at all while he engage Zabuza.

I have, and all of them would. Even the weakest Kages like Mei and Rasa would do way better then Kakashi. Mei can navigate the Mist and is just stronger then Zabuza; she'd win easily; and Rasa with Gold Dust Tsunami would des


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## Symmetry (Jul 21, 2019)

Let me throw my hat in the ring.


This is more directed at kakashi fans (he’s one of my top five so I guess I count)

@Santoryu @Mad Scientist 



I disagree with the notion here that kakashi isn’t kage level. He was kage level the second he was able to keep his sharingan active without falling down after using it. That’s that. He became low kage instantly.

As his stamina increased he pushed into mid kage, and then the war said fuck it and amped his stamina to god levels.


But, that’s it. That’s what has been getting buffed, his stamina. Not his speed, not his strength, his stamina.

Which isn’t a bad thing, since he went from worst stamina to best stamina ever, propelling him well Into mid kage, kamui pushing the envelope even further. The only reason he wasn’t kage at the beginning was not haveing  average kage level stamina,
But in the war he got beyond average kage level stamina.


But his speed and strength didn’t change too much, but I’m willing to say it did a little bit.


The V2 Jin’s thing is just silly. Not only do we have no idea what happened, but there was a distinct lack of collateral damage, something that kn4 brought in spades. So either the Nona didn’t do much or they are weaker then kn4. There’s also a difference between stalling and avoiding vs trying to beat anyways.


Zabuza can’t tag kakashi and he also fend off agaisnt V2 Jin’s of the same power of kn4, not gonna happen.


I disagree with the underlying message Turin is saying in that kakashi has jounin speed or such, that’s stupid. But I don’t see why to put him any higher then hebi sasuke in speed, which is not bad, not bad at all. That’s actually really good, plus his intelligence puts him at high mid kage for me. But he doesn’t hit very hard. What has been consistent through literally ever variant of kakashi is that he needs a clone feint raikiri to end things.


Issue is, this becomes less viable the higher you go up in the kage ladder. For example it works fine on Mei or konan, but does little to A4 tsunade, Orochimaru and such.

And other kage have ways to stop it from happening, like sage sensing of sage naruto and Jman, or gaara auto sand.


Basically, if you survive the first clone feint, your good, because kakashi won’t get off one if he tried and failed once before. Then it just becomes kamui or gg. This has become a constant in kakashi’s later battles, like deva or  Kakazu  Both times he failed to even attempt it. And then, we see Zabuza cuck it with Los blocks.

This also poses an issue for kakashi, because if someone has a lot of Los blockers then this is an issue.


I can see kakashi beating hebi sasuke, base Jman, even sick itachi and the like, whether with a clone feint or outlasting or some other method.

What I don’t see is kakashi beating high kage, although he would give some a run for their money. Like I don’t think A4 rapes kakashi. I think kakashi would survive for a bit, and throw some attacks in and have a spotlight on him for a bit.


But I don’t see him breaking into that high kage spot, although he gets close. His amazing stamina allowed him to outlast every mid kage, and his clown feints are a serious problem in mid kage, and defensive kamui, the kamui he actually does use IC, is the biggest lol nope in the series.


To me, he’s the mid kage  king.






But I think often times people try to boost him farther then this, and to me he just can’t be. Maybe if he did a little more on his own I’d be convinced, but he never really got the spotlight in a 1 vs 1 battle, something I hate kishimoto for because kakashi is one of my favs and he deserved that. Like why did Zabuza tag him? That was dumb.

What makes kakashi’s speed better from immortals arc to WA? As I said the V2 Jin’s thing isn’t valid. I re watched kn4 vs Orochimaru to see kn4’s power, and simple roars we’re creating craters. Why did this not happen against kakashi? Why was TBB not shown with the V2 Jin’s? Kakashi and gai were used for the age old trope of hey I’m weaker then the enemy but I’ll buy time for the main character to get their big amp and save the day.


Like when piccolo stalled frieza for the spirit bomb in DBZ. It’s an age old trope, and it doesn’t help that the V2 Jin’s were weaker then Naruto’s V2 jin form.

Although let’s be real, no one who is anywhere near Zabuza would have laste


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Let me throw my hat in the ring.
> 
> 
> This is more directed at kakashi fans (he’s one of my top five so I guess I count)
> ...


I never said Kakashi's speed is Jonin level; I rate him on par with 3T Sasuke, which is quite high in speed.

I'm saying overall Kakashi has canonically struggled with a Jonin level Enemy like Zabuza, something that no Kage or Sannin would. Which shows a weakness in Kakashi's character; that his other abilities outside Sharingan aren't Kage-level


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Let me throw my hat in the ring.
> 
> 
> This is more directed at kakashi fans (he’s one of my top five so I guess I count)
> ...


I never said Kakashi's speed is Jonin level; I rate him on par with 3T Sasuke, which is quite high in speed.

I'm saying overall Kakashi has canonically struggled with a Jonin level Enemy like Zabuza, something that no Kage or Sannin would. Which shows a weakness in Kakashi's character; that his other abilities outside Sharingan aren't Kage-level


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Okay @Turrin you've made good points. But I'm not about to come here and say kakashi can't beat zabuza lol. Yes. I agree that characters like the stronger kage and the sannin won't have as much issues against someone like zabuza, but it's not right to just say kakashi can't win..
> Even if the mist comes out, kakashi can do a number of things like kamui himself out of the mist and to a safer position, and use his dogs or his own nose to point out where zabuza is in the mist and snipe him.
> It just so happens that utilizing the help of others was a faster and less taxing way to get the job done


Kakashi can beat Zabuza, but it will be difficult and he could loose. He can't beat Edo-Zabuza though.

And the dogs showing him a general radius Zabuza is in isn't enough to enable him to snipe Zabuza with Kamui


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So in your mind having the dogs sniff Sakura and the Bridge dude, was more trouble then intentionally taking serious wounds to spread blood on Zabuza.....
> 
> With knowledge Zabuza can easily counter the Dog's Doton attack by creating Mizu-Clones to prevent them from accurately targeting him



Neither of those wounds hindered him or put him in danger. They were essentially skin deep paper cuts.

He tried to keep the fight between him and Zabuza away from the kids, and you think Zabuza is gonna stand there and not use that opportunity to attack while Kakashi explains his plans to the dogs and takes them on a sniffing field trip?

Not sure why you are ignoring the actual official manga and db scans I posted, which defeat your whole post.

Where is it stated that Mizu clones would have the same scent as the original or any scent at all?

Not that they would help much, when they are 10 times weaker than the original, can't get too far and they got negged by Kid Sasuke.



> I think you need to go re-read that scene Kakashi just plain gets out Feinted by Zabuza; had nothing to do with Tazuna



If he has to be wasting resources and his attention protecting a civilian and 3 kids, then it absolutely has to do with them.



> You realize that Kakashi accomplished nothing against Pain, even with help right? Like even Asura was revived later on without any injuries whatsoever. On the flip side Kakashi died. So saying he outsmarted or outfeinted Nagato is simply not true; because he accomplished nothing against Nagato. So what Jonin can recreate that performance, the answer is every single Jonin in existence would also face Pain and accomplish nothing.



I want you to explain how Kurenai and Asuma put Pain in the exact same position than Kakashi did and we will go from there.



> Cool so we agree Kakashi had difficulty defeating Zabuza; unlike any Kage who would demolish him



Tracking, not defeating him, while aided by his swordsman buddies.

The fact that you keep acting like this was a 1v1, is baffling.




> *The objective wasn't to track down Zabuza; it was to defeat Zabuza ending the Mist; every Kage we have seen would easily defeat Zabuza ending the Mist, without needing help to do so.*
> 
> And I have told you why multiple times now; most Kages ether have an AOE Technique that would hit Zabuza despite the Mist not revealing his exact location, can dispel the Mist by blowing it away, have a means to track Zabuza down more effectively, or have a defense that makes Zabuza offensive ineffective against them allowing them time to find Zabuza in the mist casually.
> 
> I've also asked you to give me an example of a Kage that could not do this, and you haven't been able to provide a single one



You have to find Zabuza before you can defeat him.

Kakashi as any other Kage has the tools to deal with him, as he did previously so this comparison you are trying to make it's pointless.

He has Ninken to defeat him like before.

He has Raiton clones.

Kamui users have been shown to be able to sense others when self warping and warp to specific areas or locations, perfect setup for a blindside attack.

He has the great waterfall technique, and he has demonstrated being able to use water jutsu without surrounding water so yes he could just cast it at a higher cost of chakra.

You pretend that Edo Zabuza vs WA Kakashi was a 1v1 battle, but it was a team battle in which Kakashi brought strategy to the table and Zabuza brought concealment for himself and others, and that is why the battle went down the way it did.


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## Speedyamell (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi can beat Zabuza, but it will be difficult and he could loose. He can't beat Edo-Zabuza though.
> 
> And the dogs showing him a general radius Zabuza is in isn't enough to enable him to snipe Zabuza with Kamui


The dogs are trackers. Pakkun has directed people to the exact position of others and kakashi also has his own sense of smell and the intelligence to precisely pin point zabuza's general location afterwards..
Or if that doesn't do it for you, he can use hiding like a mole to stay hidden, while using a raiton clone to bait zabuza. Paralysing him once he goes to attack it and leaving him open to follow up attacks


The argument that zabuza has won the match if mist comes out is what I'm against.
I agree with your first point

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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Neither of He tried to keep the fight between him and Zabuza away from the kids, and you think Zabuza is gonna stand there and not use that opportunity to attack while Kakashi explains his plans to the dogs and takes them on a sniffing field trip?
> wounds hindered him or put him in danger. They were essentially skin deep paper cuts.
> .


Zabuza put a Kunai through Kakashi's hand, comparing it to a paper cut is dishonest, and I won't continue this discussion if your going to be proactively dishonest.



> He tried to keep the fight between him and Zabuza away from the kids, and you think Zabuza is gonna stand there and not use that opportunity to attack while Kakashi explains his plans to the dogs and takes them on a sniffing field trip?


So are you basically saying Zabuza would see Dogs realize Kakashi would try to track him via scent and kill the fodder dogs? Which is exactly why I said that Tactic wouldn't work a second time?



> Where is it stated that Mizu clones would have the same scent as the original or any scent at all?
> 
> Not that they would help much, when they are 10 times weaker than the original, can't get too far and they got negged by Kid Sasuke.


Because they are clones and there is no reason for us to assume their scent is different. And they don't need to be stronger to act as decoys for the Dogs.



> If he has to be wasting resources and his attention protecting a civilian and 3 kids, then it absolutely has to do with them.


But once again that's not what happened; he simply got out feinted



> I want you to explain how Kurenai and Asuma put Pain in the exact same position than Kakashi did and we will go from there.


You mean a position of accomplishing nothing? Pretty much by standing there they could accomplish that. But to get to the heart of this I place Kakashi (and Zabuza) above Asuma and Kurunai, anyway, so I don't know why your drawing that comparison.



> Tracking, not defeating him, while aided by his swordsman buddies.
> 
> The fact that you keep acting like this was a 1v1, is baffling.


The swordsman did nothing to impede Kakashi



> You have to find Zabuza before you can defeat him.


No you don't it's called AOE Attacks



> Kakashi as any other Kage has the tools to deal with him, as he did previously so this comparison you are trying to make it's pointless.
> 
> He has Ninken to defeat him like before.
> 
> ...


And I told you why they aren't guaranteed to work, which is supported by Kakashi asking for the help of others to defeat Zabuza rather then simply using these strategies. So can you kindly stop repeating yourself?


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> The dogs are trackers. Pakkun has directed people to the exact position of others and kakashi also has his own sense of smell and the intelligence to precisely pin point zabuza's general location afterwards..
> Or if that doesn't do it for you, he can use hiding like a mole to stay hidden, while using a raiton clone to bait zabuza. Paralysing him once he goes to attack it and leaving him open to follow up attacks
> 
> 
> ...


Scent based tracking can be thrown off by the usage of Water-Clones; the only reason it was effective the first time is because Kakashi marked the real Zabuza with his blood; and Zabuza didn't have knowledge of the Hounds. Now that he does he can use Water Clones and avoid getting Kakashi's blood on himself.

Using a clone feint is possible means of victory, but it's hardly guaranteed; last time Kakashi went up against Zabuza in a clone Feint contest he lost, and got trapped by water prison.

I didn't say Zabuza has won the match if Mist comes out. I said Kakashi couldn't defeat Edo-Zabuza. This is because the only Jutsu he has that can deal with Edo-Zabuza Regen, is Kamui, which won't work due to the Mist. Living Zabuza Kakashi could potentially defeat in a tough match due to Clone Feinting him as you have described, but as I pointed out he's lost a clone feint contest to Zabuza in the past, so he could also loose. It will be a close match ether way.


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## Speedyamell (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Scent based tracking can be thrown off by the usage of Water-Clones; the only reason it was effective the first time is because Kakashi marked the real Zabuza with his blood; and Zabuza didn't have knowledge of the Hounds. Now that he does he can use Water Clones and avoid getting Kakashi's blood on himself.
> 
> Using a clone feint is possible means of victory, but it's hardly guaranteed; last time Kakashi went up against Zabuza in a clone Feint contest he lost, and got trapped by water prison.
> 
> I didn't say Zabuza has won the match if Mist comes out. I said Kakashi couldn't defeat Edo-Zabuza. This is because the only Jutsu he has that can deal with Edo-Zabuza Regen, is Kamui, which won't work due to the Mist. Living Zabuza Kakashi could potentially defeat in a tough match due to Clone Feinting him as you have described, but as I pointed out he's lost a clone feint contest to Zabuza in the past, so he could also loose. It will be a close match ether way.


It's more likely than you present though..(in regards to the raiton clone trap). Kakashi's clone feinting skills have come a long way from when he initially fought zabuza. Even tendo fell for it and was nearly cornered and killed iirc

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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> It's more likely than you present though..(in regards to the raiton clone trap). Kakashi's clone feinting skills have come a long way from when he initially fought zabuza. Even tendo fell for it and was nearly cornered and killed iirc


He tricked Tendo by replacing himself with a clone; he did the same exact thing against Zabuza; but Zabuza countered by replacing himself with a clone and then further replacing that clone with another clone. Zabuza straight did a higher level clone feint there, by performing two replacements in the same time Kakashi performed one. Kakashi has never shown a clone feint at the level of Zabuza even in P2, let alone against Tendo. So I don't see any reason to believe it's likely he could out feint Zabuza, who canonically is better then him at it.

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## MaruUchiha (Jul 21, 2019)

Thanks Turrin I've been feeling like the only controversial user since koko stopped coming on here as much, but I won't let you beat my record for most dislikes


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## Speedyamell (Jul 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He tricked Tendo by replacing himself with a clone; he did the same exact thing against Zabuza; but Zabuza countered by replacing himself with a clone and then further replacing that clone with another clone. Zabuza straight did a higher level clone feint there, by performing two replacements in the same time Kakashi performed one. Kakashi has never shown a clone feint at the level of Zabuza even in P2, let alone against Tendo. So I don't see any reason to believe it's likely he could out feint Zabuza, who canonically is better then him at it.


Lel. Now you're acting like it's impossible. If kakashi used the hiding like a mole with one or several raiton bunshin acting as bait in the mist, zabuza is going to get paralysed and skewered eventually. 
Kakashi feinting tendo is a better feat than zabuza feinting a "rusty" P1 kakashi

Reactions: Like 2


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## Edogawa (Jul 21, 2019)

I have no idea why you read the manga differently from everybody else. This is no different from you believing Madara thinking he could beat JJ Obito holds weight.

Tsunade was also pressured by Part 1 Genin Kabuto, so Tsunade is just paper tiger as well. 

And in the end, this thread is a bait. Not sure why people are falling to it.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> Lel. Now you're acting like it's impossible. If kakashi used the hiding like a mole with one or several raiton bunshin acting as bait in the mist, zabuza is going to get paralysed and skewered eventually.
> Kakashi feinting tendo is a better feat than zabuza feinting a "rusty" P1 kakashi


I'm not saying it's impossible; i'm saying we saw Kakashi attempt clone feinting Zabuza in the past and he failed; because Zabuza was able to pull off 2 replacements in the time Kakashi did one. Kakashi even in P2, has not shown the ability to pull off 2 clone replacements at the same time; so by feats Zabuza is still better, rusty or otherwise. 

Now you can claim Kakashi might be able to do 2 replacements later in P1 or P2; but at that point were talking theoretically and not based on feats. Also even if I grant Kakashi the ability to do 2 replacements consecutively and he uses this elaborate feint with 2 Raiton Kage Bushin consecutively to beat Zabuza; that's high-diff win; and certainly there is a chance Zabuza could have won before this happens or that the Feint could not work out. 

And that's all i'm saying, Kakashi would ether beat Living Zabuza with High diff; or he could loose.


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## Turrin (Jul 21, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> I have no idea why you read the manga differently from everybody else. This is no different from you believing Madara thinking he could beat JJ Obito holds weight.
> .


So basically I just read the actual manga and your in denial of canon, just like with the Madara statement, where you believe Madara is somehow complete wrong about Obito's power despite seeing the same exact feats you did.


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## Prince Idonojie (Jul 22, 2019)

Not gonna lie but Zabuza' s clone feint was top notch against Kakashi (a SHARINGAN weilder). Recall that even Kakashi used this tactic vs Itachi and Kisame in part 1... so Zabuza was certainly top notch at it and it makes sense given his area of specialization (stealth, silent killing assassinations).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Prince Idonojie (Jul 22, 2019)

Anyway the major problem I see with Kakashi is that his most powerful tech was too consuming (both chakra and health wise). This made him sort of underqualified for the position of Kage because every Kage can summon their most powerful moves over and over and over again for many years of battles, throughout most of their carrier.

Kakashi had the same fundamental issue the likes of Itachi had (and Itachi died at his early 20s because of it, just like Kimimaro in spite of their use of drugs) because they really really really suck with longevity if they bring out their real power. Notwithstanding, Itachi was a little better for being an original while Kakashi lacked the Uchiha DNA. MS Sasuke was the worst offender of this, he didn't even last *1 year* with his spamming until he was made a cripple whom Tobi had to rescue and give new eyes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soul (Jul 22, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> I've heard you post similar thoughts on different threads over the past couple days.
> 
> Unfortunately they don't matter for a good margin of posters here, all that matters to them is how the characters' strength was portrayed, even if by only a small sample (for instance hiruzen, who's strength was only ever commented on by a few Konoha ninja, never true enemies).



Well yeah. Not sure when that shift happened but it's not something I consider logical.
Not the place it used to be. Apathy and lack of common courtesy and understanding is the norm.


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## Edogawa (Jul 22, 2019)

Prince Idonojie said:


> Anyway the major problem I see with Kakashi is that his most powerful tech was too consuming (both chakra and health wise). This made him sort of underqualified for the position of Kage because every Kage can summon their most powerful moves over and over and over again for many years of battles, throughout most of their carrier.
> 
> Kakashi had the same fundamental issue the likes of Itachi had (and Itachi died at his early 20s because of it, just like Kimimaro in spite of their use of drugs) because they really really really suck with longevity if they bring out their real power. Notwithstanding, Itachi was a little better for being an original while Kakashi lacked the Uchiha DNA. MS Sasuke was the worst offender of this, he didn't even last *1 year* with his spamming until he was made a cripple whom Tobi had to rescue and give new eyes.



You can't compare Kamui to Tsunade's Byakugou as an example. Kamui literally trumps every Kage's strongest technique in every conceivable way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jul 22, 2019)

Ok I don’t agree with everything the Kakashi fan base says but you’re just stretching it lmao

Kakashi wasn’t really pressured by Zabuza. Infact the latter failed to cause significant damage to Kakashi. You can only really interpret their fight as Zabuza simply being troublesome to fight, which makes sense given the mist isn’t something that’s easy to get around

The fact of the matter is, once Kakashi met with Zabuza he easily overwhelmed him and finished him off.

Kakashi is not some average of the mill ninja, Kishimoto consistently had him praised by multiple figures in the manga, even the sage of six paths himself.

He’s a respectable mid kage in my book, and can contend with a good chunk of people in his tier, though I do disagree when people say he solos Akatsuki duos for instance, or the likes of Pein/Obito

Reactions: Like 2


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## Zembie (Jul 22, 2019)

It's like you want to be hated. Ignoring context and matchups is your forte after all.


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## t0xeus (Jul 22, 2019)

Honestly it's kind of ridiculous that Kakashi with his 1000 Jutsu arsenal can't deal with Kirigakure no Jutsu, and I don't actually remember him using any new technique in P2 except Raikiri variant, new clone and Doton Wall.

I could be missing something, but I think the indication from the author is clear that he just decided to focus on Kakashi's Sharingan + Raiton development and threw the "1000 Jutsus" and "Copy Ninja" thing into the bin halfway through the manga. I don't think Kakashi's versatility should be even a legitimate argument at this point, because it literally never played a role in the manga after the first few chapters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 22, 2019)

Orochimaru op said:


> Let me throw my hat in the ring.
> 
> 
> This is more directed at kakashi fans (he’s one of my top five so I guess I count)
> ...


Some good points here, but a lot I disagree with, and I guess that's okay. Good job on the detail, was an enjoyable read


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> I refuted your point.
> 
> Now  you're shifting goalposts.
> 
> ...


Retired sensei Santoryu out here destroying people's nf careers


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Before I respond to the content of this I suggest you actually re-read your own opening and see it isn't as precise as you're making it out to be. It was your fault for not being more precise with your wording.


Exactly, so many flaws. It's like he didn't read the responses...


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## Quipchaque (Jul 22, 2019)

Soul said:


> It means that scenarios matter. Location, match-up, etc. Stating no Kage can be put in a tough spot by an elite Jounin is misguided.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Especially since in the end Kage are just glorified elite jounin. It's not like they get a sudden power up the moment their rank changes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Though you can rejoice that your savor Kodachi will probably make Boruto-Kakashi Juubi-Jinchuuriki Tier with Purple Lightening at least.


... and massive village-sized Doton, standing as tall as the hills, any part of which he can turn to glass to nullify Raiton... An OP Katon that creates a huge bird that overpowers a Six Paths Chakra-amped Suiton, and creates thunderclouds.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Hasan said:


> ... and massive village-sized Doton, standing as tall as the hills, any part of which he can turn to glass to nullify Raiton... An OP Katon that creates a huge bird that overpowers a Six Paths Chakra-amped Suiton, and creates thunderclouds.



Is this true? Lol please give me a link so i can show it up when downplayers gonna say Hokage Kakashi is low Kage/ elite Jonin


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Ok I don’t agree with everything the Kakashi fan base says but you’re just stretching it lmao
> 
> Kakashi wasn’t really pressured by Zabuza. Infact the latter failed to cause significant damage to Kakashi. You can only really interpret their fight as Zabuza simply being troublesome to fight, which makes sense given the mist isn’t something that’s easy to get around
> 
> ...


Can you please tell me what other Mid Kage would have trouble with any character at Zabuza level


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## Hasan (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Is this true? Lol please give me a link so i can show it up when downplayers gonna say Hokage Kakashi is low Kage/ elite Jonin


It's from the new Kakashi Retsuden novel. I skimmed through it, and some interesting bits caught my attention. The techniques are called _Earth Quartz_ and _Water Mist_... He is stated to be _*much*_ stronger than his WA counterpart, and has the reputation of being a master of five elements. I will post the bits later on.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Hasan said:


> It's from the new Kakashi Retsuden novel. I skimmed through it, and some interesting bits caught my attention. The techniques are called _Earth Quartz_ and _Water Mist_... *He is stated to be much stronger than his WA counterpart, and has the reputation of being a master of five elements. I will post the bits later on*.



As in MS kakashi?

This is surprising....


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Hasan said:


> It's from the new Kakashi Retsuden novel. I skimmed through it, and some interesting bits caught my attention. The techniques are called _Earth Quartz_ and _Water Mist_... He is stated to be _*much*_ stronger than his WA counterpart, and has the reputation of being a master of five elements. I will post the bits later on.





We're all blessed on this day. Thanks for the info good sir. 

@Crimson Flam3s , @Santoryu , @Mad Scientist , @Architect , @MaruUchiha 

Homies, Hasan's got our back

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> We're all blessed on this day. Thanks for the info good sir.
> 
> @Crimson Flam3s , @Santoryu , @Mad Scientist , @Architect , @MaruUchiha
> 
> Homies, Hasan's got our back



Yeah

If this is true, it's even better than the interview where Kishimoto confirmed Sharinganless Kakashi =Jiraiya after the war.


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## Hasan (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> As in MS kakashi?
> 
> This is surprising....


Yes. It states that Kakashi has gotten significantly stronger since the time he fought Obito and Madara. He lost the Sharingan, so he replaced it with many other techniques. His chakra levels, in particular, have drastically improved. Recall that massive Doton I mentioned earlier, surrounding the village...?  He maintains the technique for an entire day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Yeah
> 
> If this is true, it's even better than the interview where Kishimoto confirmed Sharinganless Kakashi =Jiraiya after the war.



A village sized glass wall 

How hax is that? Im tempted to make a Boruto Kakashi vs Jiraiya thread already

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> A village sized glass wall
> 
> How hax is that? Im tempted to make a Boruto Kakashi vs Jiraiya thread already


Im happy that Boruto Kakashi can finally beat Zabuza low-diff like every other Kage in existence can, but it’s best for you not to start a war against Jiraiya using Boruto canon; as Kashin Koji whose absolutely Jiraiya is going to be so over powered that hell rape Kakashi no diff


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Im happy that Boruto Kakashi can finally beat Zabuza low-diff like every other Kage in existence can, but it’s best for you not to start a war against Jiraiya using Boruto canon; as Kashin Koji whose absolutely Jiraiya is going to be so over powered that hell rape Kakashi no diff



Why would a criminal working for Kara turn out to be a man who died and is still locked in the bottom of a lake? Am i missing something? They're nothing alike even as far as personality goes. 

Not to mention it would ruin Jiraiya's legacy. 

Also: 

-Kashin Koji whose absolutely Jiraiya is going to be so over powered that hell rape Kakashi no diff

You don't know what happens when you put a village sized glass wall and an OP Suiton against Kashin Koji  so hold your horses please

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Why would a criminal working for Kara turn out to be a man who died and is still locked in the bottom of a lake? Am i missing something? They're nothing alike even as far as personality goes.
> 
> Not to mention it would ruin Jiraiya's legacy.
> 
> ...


Yes your missing the plot line of basically every major villain in the Naruto Manga who started off heroes only to go down the wrong path.

And yes I do Koji rapes (He will at least be as strong as his rival Oro or stronger, who rapes Boruto Kakashi; and may even be close to Jigen in power who really rapes Boruto Kakashi); I’m just trying to help you fandom not be set up for disappointment; Sannin will always be > Kakashi, no matter the time-line or author


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## Speedyamell (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I'm not saying it's impossible; i'm saying we saw Kakashi attempt clone feinting Zabuza in the past and he failed; because Zabuza was able to pull off 2 replacements in the time Kakashi did one. Kakashi even in P2, has not shown the ability to pull off 2 clone replacements at the same time; so by feats Zabuza is still better, rusty or otherwise.
> 
> Now you can claim Kakashi might be able to do 2 replacements later in P1 or P2; but at that point were talking theoretically and not based on feats. Also even if I grant Kakashi the ability to do 2 replacements consecutively and he uses this elaborate feint with 2 Raiton Kage Bushin consecutively to beat Zabuza; that's high-diff win; and certainly there is a chance Zabuza could have won before this happens or that the Feint could not work out.
> 
> And that's all i'm saying, Kakashi would ether beat Living Zabuza with High diff; or he could loose.


So basically kakashi isn't kage level? Just want to get the clear picture here..

I don't understand why you're navigating like this.
Zabuza Switching out twice against a stated rusty P1 kakashi means nothing.
Kakashi didn't double feint anyone in P2 because he did not need to.. the fact of the matter is that he has feinted people far above zabuza in every possible way


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes your missing the plot line of basically every major villain in the Naruto Manga who started off heroes only to go down the wrong path.
> 
> And yes I do Koji rapes (He will at least be as strong as his rival Oro or stronger, who rapes Boruto Kakashi; and may even be close to Jigen in power who really rapes Boruto Kakashi); I’m just trying to help you fandom not be set up for disappointment; Sannin will always be > Kakashi, no matter the time-line or author


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes your missing the plot line of basically every major villain in the Naruto Manga who started off heroes only to go down the wrong path.
> 
> And yes I do Koji rapes (He will at least be as strong as his rival Oro or stronger, who rapes Boruto Kakashi; and may even be close to Jigen in power who really rapes Boruto Kakashi); I’m just trying to help you fandom not be set up for disappointment; Sannin will always be > Kakashi, no matter the time-line or author



Yes, all you have are optimistic theories for the future. Meanwhile, Kakashi is confirmed beast and stronger than the Sannin.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Speedyamell said:


> So basically kakashi isn't kage level? Just want to get the clear picture here..
> 
> I don't understand why you're navigating like this.
> Zabuza Switching out twice against a stated rusty P1 kakashi means nothing.
> Kakashi didn't double feint anyone in P2 because he did not need to.. the fact of the matter is that he has feinted people far above zabuza in every possible way


Depends largely on how you define Kage level; in my opinion he is borderline Kage level due to Mangekyo. Basically around the level of characters like Deidara, Kisame, and Hidan 

Zabuza showed a demonstrably higher level of skill with Feints, being able to swap out twice while Kakashi has only ever been able to shown to swap out once.

Even if Kakashi improved being able to swap out faster; he would still loose out to someone who can swap twice; as the battle ends the same way, even if Kakashi swaps faster.

And I don’t agree that Kakashi has faced someone better at swapping then Zabuza; swapping out is matter of stealth, Zabuza with silent killing and mist is one of the best at stealth in the manga; so it fits that he would be extremely capable on swapping.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Yes, all you have are optimistic theories for the future. Meanwhile, Kakashi is confirmed beast and stronger than the Sannin.


Kakashi is confirmed stronger then Orochimaru?


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi is confirmed stronger then Orochimaru?



All i need if for him to be stronger than Jiraiya 

But yes, Kakashi's probably stronger than Orochimaru too at the moment. Excluding Edos anyways...


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> All i need if for him to be stronger than Jiraiya
> 
> But yes, Kakashi's probably stronger than Orochimaru too at the moment. Excluding Edos anyways...


So he’s not stronger then Orochimaru; and he’s stronger then Jiraiya until Koji takes off his mask. Have fun being disappointed.


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So he’s not stronger then Orochimaru; and he’s stronger then Jiraiya until Koji takes off his mask. Have fun being disappointed.



- The man is literally called Kashin Koji and his face is almost all uncovered (and it's not Jiraiya...)

- Turrin says it's Jiraiya



Ok man, meanwhile im enjoying the fact Kakashi beats Jiraiya. And more than anything, im enjoying that all those haters were wrong regarding Boruto Kakashi's level


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> - The man is literally called Kashin Koji and his face is almost all uncovered (and it's not Jiraiya...)
> 
> - Turrin says it's Jiraiya
> 
> ...


K have fun with that alongside the people who claimed Tobi wasn’t Obito


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

> eagerly waiting for Turrin's next ignore victim in this thread


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes your missing the plot line of basically every major villain in the Naruto Manga who started off heroes only to go down the wrong path.


Dumbest thing I've read all day.


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> Dumbest thing I've read all day.



As the advocate for @Turrin, you have 24 hours, either you take that back or you will automatically go on his ignore list, the clock is ticking.

Best regards


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> We're all blessed on this day. Thanks for the info good sir.
> 
> @Crimson Flam3s , @Santoryu , @Mad Scientist , @Architect , @MaruUchiha
> 
> Homies, Hasan's got our back


Yay
Been longing to know about this for quite a long. Was worried if there aren't any new jutsu since we had no info.


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## JayK (Jul 22, 2019)

Imagine saying a character is weak because he struggled (which he didn't btw) against another character which literally never fought against anyone but the former.

10/10 logic


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> As the advocate for @Turrin, you have 24 hours, either you take that back or you will automatically go on his ignore list, the clock is ticking.
> 
> Best regards


Have no problem with people having a different opinion; as long as they don’t lie

It’s not my problem if @MadScientist  didn’t understand the character arc of nearly ever villain in the manga lol


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Have no problem with people having a different opinion; as long as they don’t lie



But it's okay for you to lie in your OP?


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

JayK said:


> Imagine saying a character is weak because he struggled (which he didn't btw) against another character which literally never fought against anyone but the former.
> 
> 10/10 logic


Feel free to match Zabuza up against any Kage you want and see how much people think they struggle with him


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> But it's okay for you to lie in your OP?


Tell me what’s a lie..


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Tell me what’s a lie..



Several posters in this thread have called them out, but I'll bold them for you.



Turrin said:


> *And Kishimoto consistently has Kakashi struggled with this guy, which unfortunately strong conflicts with what I said above about Kakashi being OP.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Light D Lamperouge (Jul 22, 2019)

This thread belongs in the bathhouse.


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

It's time to address the posters that rated this thread positively:




@Azula

4 Sannin Band members. Predictable.




It's Speedy. In your defense, even you're calling his points out.







But you guys...

You're giving ammunition to a thread where the creator posits that A seasoned Mangekyo-Sharingan cannot defeat Edo Zabuza
Think about that guys.
Recant your rating and debate the merits of this thread (there aren't any). One could make a good case for Kakashi's flaws in relation to powerful high-tiers, but a thread like this is just bait-material.


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


>



to my knowledge, those two are also part of the sannin cult


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> to my knowledge, those two are also part of the sannin cult



Not the band, however. There was no more space left for them 

@Shark used to rate Kakashi and Kisame way more fairly a year ago but was later radicalised. Now he thinks they're fodder to the Sannin.
@Orochimaru op has some strange opinions but I think a lot of his posts are not malicious in nature and he puts some effort in.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Actually, Kakashi could deal with the mist. But only if it was 1x1. When underground, he and Kabuto can track people they can't see. Their technique is either Hiding like a mole technique, which uses some sort of geomagnetic sensing or another technique that uses similiar method of locating targets. Mist shouldn't be a problem, but if there are several people, that would confuse him.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Several posters in this thread have called them out, but I'll bold them for you.


Okay so you being in denial of Canon is not the same thing as me lying; Zabuza has consistently been a tough enemy for Kakashi, deal with it


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> It's time to address the posters that rated this thread positively:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I said he might be able to win; after someone raised some good points, but it would be a tough match

Also this is typical fanboy bias; just dropping statements attacking me rather then addressing the argument; oh wait you tired to and couldn’t


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## HappyBurrito (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay so you being in denial of Canon is not the same thing as me lying; Zabuza has consistently been a tough enemy for Kakashi, deal with it


You literally ignored kakashis post which destroyed all your points



~Kakashi~ said:


> Zabuza has literally never touched Kakashi without outside assistance(relying on Haku to grab on to him, or relying on Kakashi having to defend Team 7/Tazuna). When in direct 1v1 fights, Kakashi dominated him on 3 different occasions, even one paneling him in the war arc.
> 
> I could care less about the general opinion on Kakashi or where he ranks among "kage levels". Part 1 Kakashi isn't kage level regardless, but still was leaps and bounds above Zabuza, and this idea that he "struggled" with him needs to die.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> Actually, Kakashi could deal with the mist. But only if it was 1x1. When underground, he and Kabuto can track people they can't see. Their technique is either Hiding like a mole technique, which uses some sort of geomagnetic sensing or another technique that uses similiar method of locating targets. Mist shouldn't be a problem, but if there are several people, that would confuse him.


So Zabuza casually counters with Mizubushin


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

HappyBurrito said:


> You literally ignored kakashis post which destroyed all your points


He’s claiming I’m lying when I point out Zabuza is a tough enemy; it doesn’t deserve to be addressed as it’s a denial of canon


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So Zabuza casually counters with Mist


?


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> ?


Sorry meant mizubushin


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Several posters in this thread have called them out, but I'll bold them for you.


 <-- Turrin

 <-- Me after witnessing the burn

Btw, @Turrin, my name is Mad Scientist, not MadScientist.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Sorry meant mizubushin


And Kakashi counters with his own.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> <-- Turrin
> 
> <-- Me after witnessing the burn
> 
> Btw, @Turrin, my name is Mad Scientist, not MadScientist.


K...


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> And Kakashi counters with his own.


Cool; last time he got outplayed when he tried that and lost


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## Android (Jul 22, 2019)

Masters fans when they started reading OP, then after they finished reading.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

It’s funny that not a single one of these fanboys can actually address my point that Kakashi unlike any other Kage has consistently had a tough time with a Jonin fighter on Zabuza level; and instead have to rely on denial that this occurred.

And it’s not like I’m saying Kakashi can’t compete with Kages; he just has a weakness that other Kages don’t which makes it possible for a Zabuza level Ninja to be a threat to him. Basically he’s a classic lower end Kage.

Otherwise show me another Mid/High Kage that would have a tough time with a Zabuza level Ninja; you can’t because most Ninja on that level would beat Zabuza easily with a Bushin or Summons lol


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Cool; last time he got outplayed when he tried that and lost


1) That time Kakashi couldn't use his geomagnetic sensing, since...he was aboveground.
2) That was rusty Kakashi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (Jul 22, 2019)

It's funny how these Anti-Masters fanboys can't spot their own biases and, when called out on their biases and hypocrisies, run away, generalise and deny rather than actually combat the points made.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> 1) That time Kakashi couldn't use his geomagnetic sensing, since...he was aboveground.
> 2) That was rusty Kakashi.


 We already covered this Kakashi gets counted by Clones

Kakashi even when not rusty hasn’t shown the ability to use a double feint like Zabuza did there; so no, Zabuza as a master of stealth and aided by the mist has better clone feinting skills then Kakashi, thee end.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Mad Scientist said:


> It's funny how these Anti-Masters fanboys can't spot their own biases and, when called out on their biases and hypocrisies, run away, generalise and deny rather than actually combat the points made.


Denial of Canon and now Denial of reality


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## JayK (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s funny that not a single one of these fanboys can actually address my point


Yeah cause nobody gives a shit about arguing with a clown who thinks that Zabuza who lost to Wave Arc Kakashi is now gonna beat a Kakashi after the series has prolounged for 16 years.

If you even gave the slightest fuck to bother looking at all the garbage Kakashi went through in the series after fighting Zabuza you'd realise how insanely stupid you look right now.

Hf being hardstuck in 1999.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> We already covered this Kakashi gets counted by Clones
> 
> Kakashi even when not rusty hasn’t shown the ability to use a double feint like Zabuza did there; so no, Zabuza as a master of stealth and aided by the mist has better clone feinting skills then Kakashi, thee end.


nope
while above ground, Kakashi couldn't track or notice Zabuza and his clone, which wouldn't be the case while underground
what do you mean by double feint? Zabuza used one clone there
later Kakashi dealt with a one-clone feint from Itachi


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

JayK said:


> Yeah cause nobody gives a shit about arguing with a clown who thinks that Zabuza who lost to Wave Arc Kakashi is now gonna beat a Kakashi after the series has prolounged for 16 years.
> 
> If you even gave the slightest fuck to bother looking at all the garbage Kakashi went through in the series after fighting Zabuza you'd realise how insanely stupid you look right now.
> 
> Hf being hardstuck in 1999.


Cool then please leave the thread; you won’t be changing my opinion with no argument and your contributing nothing


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> nope
> while above ground, Kakashi couldn't track or notice Zabuza and his clone, which wouldn't be the case while underground
> what do you mean by double feint? Zabuza used one clone there
> later Kakashi dealt with a one-clone feint from Itachi


 Zabuza replaces himself with a clone and then replaced his clone with another clone; it was a double feint to my knowledge Kakashi has never been shown capable off; only I think Zabuza and Naruto have done this


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## JayK (Jul 22, 2019)

I also think its funny how people label Zabuza as fodder for losing to Kakashi fairly easily while Konan who got fodderized in both the fights she participated is wanked to Kage level by the Sannin fandom.

Can't blame em, it's the Sannin's only noteworthy W in the series.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Damn, 15 dislikes! 
It's no wonder Jman is always underrated 
imagine having to deal with Kakashi's fanboys on top of the already butthurt itachi's fanboys lol

------------
on a different note, why are some people bringing "Boruto Kakashi" it's not like he did anything... 
unless defeating Academy students is supposed to be impressive...


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> You're giving ammunition to a thread where the creator posits that A seasoned Mangekyo-Sharingan cannot defeat Edo Zabuza
> Think about that guys.
> Recant your rating and debate the merits of this thread (there aren't any). One could make a good case for Kakashi's flaws in relation to powerful high-tiers, but a thread like this is just bait-material.


Kakashi is > Zabuza no doubt, but Turrin's overall point that Kakashi didn't swiftly defeat Zabuza is something I agree with.


Santoryu said:


> Not the band, however. There was no more space left for them
> 
> @Shark used to rate Kakashi and Kisame way more fairly a year ago but was later radicalised. Now he thinks they're fodder to the Sannin.


I used to rate them higher, but my understanding of power levels changed after I realized it was hypocritical to hang on to statements and hype when they benefit my arguments (Itachi > Orochimaru for example) and ignore them when they don't (Jiraiya/Sannin > Kisame).

Back in the day, I used to believe Kisame can beat SM Jiraiya after chapter 507 came out (around 2010/2011?) and Kisame showed 1000 sharks and Daikodan, and the statement from Part I was something I dismissed as "he was basing it off reputation and nothing credible" and the toad stomach incident as "Itachi was better suited to counter it, not that Kisame was helpless". Basically I liked Kisame enough that I was willing to subjectively interpret his feats in favor of his admission of inferiority and his on-panel defeat to Base Jiraiya.

As time went on, I conceded that Jiraiya was stronger than Kisame based on his admission and that toad stomach nearly killing Kisame does have implications whether I liked it or not. However, there was a new problem; Tsunade. You see Tsunade hasn't had much feats until the War Arc and even then she didn't have that much panel time, but Kisame directly admitted inferiority to the Sannin, he admitted Jiraiya was stronger than him because he's a Sannin. I could never understand back then why someone would rank Tsunade "who is straightforward, and can only punch and kick" above someone who has Biju chakra, Daikodan, 1000 sharks etc.

Then I conceded that Tsunade was stronger because at the end of the day if someone was to tell me how Suigetsu is stronger than Kisame because they believe by feats he counters him, I would refer to the statement of Sasuke to Suigetsu that "You're not at his level yet [referring to Kisame]" and if they didn't accept it I would think they lost the debate - which would have been hypocritical. This was pretty much my turning point in how I viewed character strengths when I debated @Orochimaruwantsyourbody in his tier list thread where I disagreed that Kisame < Tsunade. After a couple of days I looked back at the conversation and decided I was very wrong and in denial especially after I argued that "Kisame admitted inferiority to Jiraiya only, and then he just generally praised his Sannin status which is unrelated to his inferiority" which is just blatantly not true.

Since then I've incorporated portrayal into my arguments as the main factor and use feats within context as secondary portrayal to fill up the gaps for those with less panel time or panel hype (for example A4 doesn't have any hype to his actual power-level aside from his speed, but we can say he was "portrayed as someone who could give a Rookie MS Sasuke a tough fight" and go from there).

I rate the Sannin higher than most "feats > portrayal" crowd because I'm basically a "portrayal > feats" kind of poster, and the Sannin are the type of characters who didn't have enough panel time to showcase everything they've got and a lot of the time they are in disadvantageous situations that are extensively commented on and emphasized by the author (phobia, rustiness, no arms, drugged, sickness).

However with that said I still have some beliefs that would probably not make me make the cut to the Sannin Band based on your definitions. To give examples:

1. I think 3T Itachi is weaker than Orochimaru but there is no doubt that there is a portrayed average gap between Itachi and Orochimaru when Itachi can threaten Orochimaru with only 3T, the excuses made for Orochimaru are many and while Itachi fans try to increase the gap to indirectly imply "Itachi > Jiraiya" the Jiraiya fans are also decreasing the gap so Itachi won't be out of reach. 

2. I also think SM Jiraiya having Frog Kata and Sage sensing is irrelevant to his power level because the (supposed) retcon is in the abilities of SM not the power-level of Jiraiya, it's no different than characters showing new jutsu with more panel time (they didn't get stronger, just more fleshed out - interestingly this is usually a pro-Sannin argument). So Jiraiya countering someone with these powers (assuming he has them) doesn't reflect on the result or even the difficulty of the fight and wouldn't do anything rather than offer more feats for us to see.

3. Jiraiya is sometimes given to much leeway vs Pain, the suggestion that Jiraiya can defeat the three paths without Frog Song goes directly against manga canon and when some argue for Jiraiya having feats to do it it seems a bit like people are reverting to interpreting feats how they like and ignoring clear portrayal in favor of them. Jiraiya is also given excuses like fighting in enemy territory and having no knowledge when he had the advantage of facing only one path where he managed to achieve SM, making Pain a lot more restricted. Pain also doesn't benefit from the location advantage at all, unlike Jiraiya ironically.

4. Generally pro-Sannin supporters underrate Hebi Sasuke's portrayal, this usually done through minimizing his threat by undermining his abilities or the implications of them; Manda is a non-factor because Sasuke didn't use him and he has a temper and because Sasuke can't control Manda with 3T despite doing that in the manga and the DB comparing it to taming Kurama because of made-up weaknesses like "it's exhausting to control Manda", "he has a time limit/he can't control him other than a split second", ignoring multiple manga statements and showings that Deidara could only make Sasuke struggle with severe advantages and his overall portrayal of being around Base Sannin-level (Base Jiraiya, Tsunade).

However it's not just the pro-Sannin that usually do this, but rather anyone who just doesn't like BoS and Hebi Sasuke as characters (which is a lot).

5. The Hiruzen paradox: Hiruzen is impressive enough to incapacitate PI Edos and cripple Orochimaru vs. Orochimaru with PI Edo is impressive because he toyed with Hiruzen. Or Orochimaru w/o Edos has strong portrayal because he's > Hiruzen, but how strong is Hiruzen? Strong enough to beat/cripple Orochimaru _w/ PI Edos_.

But in general, my opinions of Kakashi and Kisame did change as I have many tiers/level in my rankings and Kisame/Kakashi are simply below the Sannin if we take all evidence available.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Zabuza replaces himself with a clone and then replaced his clone with another clone; it was a double feint to my knowledge Kakashi has never been shown capable off; only I think Zabuza and Naruto have done this


yeah, I've reread the moment and Zabuza sent his 2 clones before attacking himself
you are wrong if you think that:
1) comparing WA and PI rusty Kakashi is fair
2) Kakashi doesn't learn from his mistakes and doesn't try to create a countermeasure: he explicitly said he does when he faced Itachi the second time
3) the double feint has something difficult to it: one just sends his clones one after another before revealing himself
and my main point stands true: geomagnetic sensing makes difference

Reactions: Like 1


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Zabuza replaces himself with a clone and then replaced his clone with another clone; it was a double feint to my knowledge Kakashi has never been shown capable off; only I think Zabuza and Naruto have done this


Curse you, you'll pay for this you bastard


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> Kakashi is > Zabuza no doubt, but Turrin's overall point that Kakashi didn't swiftly defeat Zabuza is something I agree with.
> 
> I used to rate them higher, but my understanding of power levels changed after I realized it was hypocritical to hang on to statements and hype when they benefit my arguments (Itachi > Orochimaru for example) and ignore them when they don't (Jiraiya/Sannin > Kisame).
> 
> ...


Out of curiosity, where do you rank the Sannin, Itachi, Hebi Sauce & Kisame these days?


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> yeah, I've reread the moment and Zabuza sent his 2 clones before attacking himself
> you are wrong if you think that:
> 1) comparing WA and PI rusty Kakashi is fair
> 2) Kakashi doesn't learn from his mistakes and doesn't try to create a countermeasure: he explicitly said he does when he faced Itachi the second time
> ...


As I said even in P2 Kakashi has not shown the ability to use a double feint.

If Kakashi being below the ground won’t tell him which is the real Zabuza; at best he will know there are few Zabuza moving around above him; that doesn’t help him figure out the location of the real Zabuza. Also you’d think if this actually could countered then Mist and Zabuza steals so easily he would have used it instead of relying on the Yamanaka sensor, but he didn’t


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

JayK said:


> I also think its funny how people label Zabuza as fodder for losing to Kakashi fairly easily while Konan who got fodderized in both the fights she participated is wanked to Kage level by the Sannin fandom.
> 
> Can't blame em, it's the Sannin's only noteworthy W in the series.


I don’t believe anyone in this thread called Zabuza fodder; he would however be low diffed by everyone whose held the Kage title; unlike Manga-Kakashi who he is consistently a major threat to


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Out of curiosity, where do you rank the Sannin, Itachi, Hebi Sauce & Kisame these days?


I'll show you my ranking based on tiers, however I have many tiers in my tier list:

*Tier*
Healthy/Edo Itachi

*Tier*
Sick Itachi
Jiraiya
Orochimaru

*Tier*
Tsunade
Hebi Sasuke
Base Jiraiya

*Tier*
Kisame

Healthy/Edo Itachi's feats and hype he receiveed in the WA speak for themselves, especially Bee implying inferiority to Edo Itachi, howver he is amongst the weakest on his tier (Minato, Tobirama, KCM Naruto, etc)

Sick Itachi and Orochimaru have an average gap in between (a mid-diff fight), so Itachi is towards the top while Orochimaru is towards the bottom of the tier. Jiraiya is in-between. Itachi is > or = MS Sasuke/SM Naruto while Jiraiya is <= them, Itachi would defeat Muu/Gengetsu while Jiraiya might go either way, Orochimaru is likely slightly weaker but I'm not sure. Danzo would lose to Itachi and beat the two Sannin.

Hebi defeated Deidara with high difficulty with numerous disadvantages (Tobi laying the mines, Sasuke not having KI, Sasuke saying the Raiton superiority wasn't needed for his victory, Deidara having a match-up advantage, etc) so at worst he would mid-diff him in a fair fight. From a plot point of view this battle served as a warning to the readers of what Sasuke could have in store for Itachi (Deidara wasn't relevant to the plot/main characters so he's basically hype fodder for the Uchihas, which explains his bitterness). Deidara, Kisame, Kakuzu are all comparable and someone who challenges Itachi and mid-diffs Deidara is a tier above the mid-Akatsuki. Base Jiraiya low-diffed Kisame with location advantage, so he would mid-diff him in neutral conditions. This is not far-fetched when we see Jiraiya's toads can maneuver/feint Pain underwater, Jiraiya having access to comparable aoe and potency of jutsu in base, Jiraiya having more experience, knowledge, more jutsu, more stealth and traps even underwater, more elements etc. It fits with Kisame saying Jiraiya is out of his league. Tsunade was portrayed below SM Jiraiya in the Pain Arc when Naruto learning SM was the only one who could face Pain and not her, he needed to surpass Jiraiya and not Tsunade. Jiraiya >= Orochimaru > Tsunade fits with the Naruto >= Sasuke > Sakura theme as well.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> As I said even in P2 Kakashi has not shown the ability to use a double feint.


doesn't mean that he can't and doesn't mean he needs to be able to do so to counter a double feint


Turrin said:


> If Kakashi being below the ground won’t tell him which is the real Zabuza; at best he will know there are few Zabuza moving around above him; that doesn’t help him figure out the location of the real Zabuza


while this is true, Kakashi simply simultaneously attacks all of them with his own clones and real Zabuza won't be able to react to Kakashi or his clones if he got caught by Kakashi's dogs and PA Kakashi almost pierced a foe like Tendo, who got saved only by using ST


Turrin said:


> Also you’d think if this actually could countered then Mist and Zabuza steals so easily he would have used it instead of relying on the Yamanaka sensor, but he didn’t


that's why I said "if it's 1x1"


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> especially Bee implying inferiority to Edo Itachi,


he did? Where?


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> he did? Where?


After their fight with Nagato Bee said "so you're not just strong" or something. Sorry don't have the panel.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> After their fight with Nagato Bee said "so you're not just strong" or something. Sorry don't have the panel.


this one? 

*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




if so, how does this show inferiority in any way, shape, or form?


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> I'll show you my ranking based on tiers, however I have many tiers in my tier list:
> 
> *Tier*
> Healthy/Edo Itachi
> ...


I agree with your logic but realistically there aren’t that many Tiers in between these characters Shark.

Deidara honestly could kill Orochimaru; due to Orochimaru lacking knowledge of C4. Does this mean Deidara is on Orochimaru level; no it doesn’t cause Orochimaru would perform better then him in many situations, but it does mean Deidara “level” Ninja can still be a threat to Orochimaru. The same is true of Kisame could beat V1/2 B (actually he did due to B lacking knowledge on Samehada) so it’s  obvious that he was a threat to him; even though he admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. Anyway I bring up these examples to say that the gaps between these individuals isn’t that large and the superior Ninja largely comes down to experience/knowledge/versatility. Similar to how Zabuza is still a threat to WA-Kakashi, despite WA-Kakashi being able to at times be a threat with Kamui to much stronger enemies then Zabuza.

Anyway the way I see it is;

Mid-Akatsuki & Masters are generally above most Jonin; but the skilled ones that match up well are a threat to them; and the Sannin are generally above Mid-Akatsuki and Masters but the ones that match up well are a threat to them. The main difference is Sannin aren’t going to be threatened by any skilled Jonin, but Masters and Mid-Akatsuki can be.

Which is why I don’t like using Tiers anymore; though if you want to put it in those terms. The Sannin to me are just average Kages Ninja; and the Mid-Akatsuki and Masters are borderline.


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> doesn't mean that he can't and doesn't mean he needs to be able to do so to counter a double feint
> 
> while this is true, Kakashi simply simultaneously attacks all of them with his own clones and real Zabuza won't be able to react to Kakashi or his clones if he got caught by Kakashi's dogs and PA Kakashi almost pierced a foe like Tendo, who got saved only by using ST
> 
> that's why I said "if it's 1x1"


Since when do we give characters feats they never have shown or been stated to have? Zabuza is simply better until Kakashi shows otherwise; end of story.

Kakashi attacking all of them with his clones won’t work as Zabuza can create more clones then Kakashi can.

Plus if he could do this why didn’t he just create 7 clones against the swordsman and destroy them all with this method Instead of asking for help. This is what I mean by Kakashi depiction in the manga against Zabuza doesn’t fit how he should perform according to his fans on paper.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> I'll show you my ranking based on tiers, however I have many tiers in my tier list:
> 
> *Tier*
> Healthy/Edo Itachi
> ...


Always subscribed to Living Itachi being > MS Sasuke overall. The former has the superior Genjutsu, superior Susano’o (Totsuka/Yata), better speed/reactions & more experience. Danzō also seemed to hold him in a higher light. Think Itachi’s stamina is often majorly downplayed tbh, as he outlasted Hebi Sauce while using multiple MS techs. Worth mentioning that Zetsu said Sauce fight Itachi was noticeably weaker than he’d ever seen him before 

Hmm the Deidara Hebi Sauce analysis does make me view Kisame slightly lower than I did prior, but would give Kisame the edge over him. You view the two as basically being equals? At worst, you can at least feel good knowing Kisame was the most quality Akatsuki member


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## t0xeus (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> It's time to address the posters that rated this thread positively:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He made a good point about Kakashi's versatility being taken way too seriously although it has never really played any role in his fights.
Also Kishimoto not making that scene with ET Zabuza a pure stompfest for Kakashi to showcase the progress he made in the 3.5+ years honestly speaks volumes. I know it was not a straight 1v1, but if Kishi felt like the gap between Kakashi and Zabuza is that huge, he would've showcased it there in my opinion, but instead he went for Kakashi wanting a help from random fodders.

I like Kakashi, but Turrin brings up good points.


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> He made a good point about Kakashi's versatility being taken way too seriously although it has never really played any role in his fights.
> Also Kishimoto not making that scene with ET Zabuza a pure stompfest for Kakashi to showcase the progress he made in the 3.5+ years honestly speaks volumes. I know it was not a straight 1v1, but if Kishi felt like the gap between Kakashi and Zabuza is that huge, he would've showcased it there in my opinion, but instead he went for Kakashi wanting a help from random fodders.
> 
> I like Kakashi, but Turrin brings up good points.




I'll address this once I have access to my laptop.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Since when do we give characters feats they never have shown or been stated to have? Zabuza is simply better until Kakashi shows otherwise; end of story.


I am personally giving it since I don't see anything technically complex about double feint and since Kakashi had lesser (4.5) int back then when he was rusty, he made a tactical errors and he admitted he underestimated Zabuza. But that's just my view.
However, we know Kakashi makes a countermeasures to something he fails against. Him working a way to counter a double feint is something expected.


Turrin said:


> Zabuza can create more clones then Kakashi can.


proof?


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jul 22, 2019)

I pretty much agree with @Turrin on this and ı already covered similar topic on my own part. 

Look at kakashi's shippuden career (and we know P1 already) () ()


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Plus if he could do this why didn’t he just create 7 clones against the swordsman and destroy them all with this method Instead of asking for help. This is what I mean by Kakashi depiction in the manga against Zabuza doesn’t fit how he should perform according to his fans on paper.


The moment he would reach them would match the time where SotM were canonically already fighting Kakashi's troops.
And why waste a chakra on 6 clones and 7 Raikiris when you have a sensor under your command?


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> this one?
> 
> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> ...


Yep, he's saying Itachi is not only strong but has other qualities. Don't think he'll say that about someone weaker than him.

But of course you disagree, and I'm not gonna debate you on an Itachi topic.


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> pure stompfest


It was a stomp in fact


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Always subscribed to Living Itachi being > MS Sasuke overall. The former has the superior Genjutsu, superior Susano’o (Totsuka/Yata), better speed/reactions & more experience. Danzō also seemed to hold him in a higher light. Think Itachi’s stamina is often majorly downplayed tbh, as he outlasted Hebi Sauce while using multiple MS techs. Worth mentioning that Zetsu said Sauce fight Itachi was noticeably weaker than he’d ever seen him before


Agreed, the DB also says Sasuke surpassed his brother in "dojutsu and ninjutsu" once he got Itachi's eyes.


> Hmm the Deidara Hebi Sauce analysis does make me view Kisame slightly lower than I did prior, but would give Kisame the edge over him. You view the two as basically being equals? At worst, you can at least feel good knowing Kisame was the most quality Akatsuki member


I view them as around the same level and I'm undecided who might have an edge, but Hebi Sasuke has so many abilities and hype that he's just a level above mid-tier Akatsuki and a level below High Kages like Itachi.

And yeah, Kisame is amongst the best written characters in Akatsuki alongside Sasori and maybe Nagato, but unlike those two whose deaths were not that smoothly written (Sasori dying way early and losing to Chiyo/Sakura, Nagato being TnJ'd) Kisame's death and final moments were great.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> Yep, he's saying Itachi is not only strong but has other qualities. Don't think he'll say that about someone weaker than him.
> 
> But of course you disagree, and I'm not gonna debate you on an Itachi topic.


Do you hear yourself? 

if you are saying someone else is strong, means you must be weaker than him?
Minato said A's lineage is strong, now he is weaker than A?


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Do you hear yourself?
> 
> if you are saying someone else is strong, means you must be weaker than him?
> Minato said A's lineage is strong, now he is weaker than A?


If you want to praise someone weaker than you for something unrelated to strength, you wouldn't mention strength.

What's wrong with Itachi + Edo buffs being > Killer Bee?


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## Turrin (Jul 22, 2019)

Architect said:


> The moment he would reach them would match the time where SotM were canonically already fighting Kakashi's troops.
> And why waste a chakra on 6 clones and 7 Raikiris when you have a sensor under your command?


So if chakra is a concern we run into the same problem that Zabuza could make more clones then Kakashi can to counter this


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## Architect (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So if chakra is a concern we run into the same problem that Zabuza could make more clones then Kakashi can to counter this


wow, that's one nice jumping 
kunai works against living, so


Architect said:


> proof?


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> If you want to praise someone weaker than you for something unrelated to strength, you wouldn't mention strength.


lol, no. Being stronger than someone (especially if you are relatively close) is not a proof of "inferiority"
Based on your logic, then itachi is weaker than Hebi Sasuke, since itachi said he is strong...

But let me guess, it does not count because it's against itachi, like everything else? 



> What's wrong with Itachi + Edo buffs being > Killer Bee?


It's up to you if you think itachi is stronger, I don't see a definite proof one way or the other.
But claiming that B's statement is him "admitting inferiority" is nonsense. 

I am only debating against you in regard to how you used that statement and gave it a meaning that it does not have.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> But claiming that B's statement is him "admitting inferiority" is nonsense.


I agree, that's not an admission of inferiority like Kisame said about Jiraiya or Orochimaru said about Itachi.

I'm saying that it's simply an implication that can be understood from it.

Bee is not hyping Itachi's power as it is irrelevant to what he wants to praise. He wants to praise Itachi's intelligence/leadership whatever, yet he still brought up his power even though he didn't have to right after being outperformed by him.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> I agree, that's not an admission of inferiority like Kisame said about Jiraiya or Orochimaru said about Itachi.
> 
> I'm saying that it's simply an implication that can be understood from it.
> 
> Bee is not hyping Itachi's power as it is irrelevant to what he wants to praise. He wants to praise Itachi's intelligence/leadership whatever, yet he still brought up his power even though he didn't have to right after being outperformed by him.



the only thing that conveys is itachi is both strong and "smart". Nothing more, nothing less. 
this is not the first time a character praised someone who is either outright weaker than them, or around as strong.

Asspulldara admitted that Tsunade is strong as well, does not mean she is stronger than him. 
Naruto told about how strong Sasuke is to Salad, does not mean Sasuke is stronger than him.
itachi himself talked about Hebi Sasuke's power, and yet we don't see itachi's fanboys admitting that Sasuke is stronger than him.


and the list goes on. There is no hidden meaning behind it or implications...

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 22, 2019)

Kakashi struggled with Edo Zabuza
Kakashi is more renowed than 7th Gated Gai and might be on the same level.
7th Gated Gai has been praised by Itachi (High Kage) and Hachibi (High Kage)
7th Gated Gai looked comfortably ahead of Kisame.
Kakashi was taken with extreme caution by a Pain who trash talked Tsunade with backup without any fear or careful behavior at all.

So, if Zabuza gave Kakashi enough troubles, then people are here either underrating Zabuza to great lengths or it's just more cases of War Arc being the War Arc. Kakashi didn't look to have much troubles against Edo Zabuza, that I recall. But if by feats and comparisons we go, Zabuza could be higher than you're giving him credit for.

But considering Kakashi's angered reaction after beating Edo Zabuza, is also highly probable that sentiments were holding him back a lot, much like with Obito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> the only thing that conveys is itachi is both strong and "smart". Nothing more, nothing less.
> this is not the first time a character praised someone who is either outright weaker than them, or around as strong.
> 
> Asspulldara admitted that Tsunade is strong as well, does not mean she is stronger than him.
> ...


In those examples the topic of praise (what is being praised) is the strength of the character. Itachi/Naruto/Asspulldara praised the strength of Hebi/Sasuke/Tsunade. In Bee's case he wasn't praising Itachi's strength but his mind, yet he still brought up his strength is my point. 

Lol it's not a strong argument anyways like I said, merely something to add besides outperforming him etc.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Shark said:


> In Bee's case he wasn't praising Itachi's strength but his mind, yet he still brought up his strength is my point.


because itachi was "portrayed" smart for knowing something an elementary school would know (lol gravity pulling things towards it),
so he is saying he is "smart" and strong.  



Shark said:


> , merely something to add besides outperforming him etc.


itachi did not outperform him tho.

Honestly, the understanding of "outperforming" someone else in this forum is beyond ridiculous.  

"you must do everything on your own day in and day out. If someone else were to do ANYTHING in your present, then he outperformed you" That's seriously dumb


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> He made a good point about Kakashi's versatility being taken way too seriously although it has never really played any role in his fights.
> Also Kishimoto not making that scene with ET Zabuza a pure stompfest for Kakashi to showcase the progress he made in the 3.5+ years honestly speaks volumes. I know it was not a straight 1v1, but if Kishi felt like the gap between Kakashi and Zabuza is that huge, he would've showcased it there in my opinion, but instead he went for Kakashi wanting a help from random fodders.
> 
> I like Kakashi, but Turrin brings up good points.




I'll preface this by saying that Kishimoto could have and should have explored Kakashi's ninjutsu arsenal (1000+) in more depth. This is more of a narrative missed opportunity, it doesn't however, lessen Kakashi's versatility itself as I will soon prove. It's also unrealistic to see 1000+ jutsu given how many characters there are in the other series, but I certainly agree that more should have been shown.

*Versatility has played a role in several of Kakashi's fights:*

1. Even as a kid, he displayed the ability to sniff out opponents, displayed , and an acute . He later showcased high kenjutsu skill, prodigal-talent by immediately adapting to the Sharingan and finishing off his opponent with Chidori.

2. In his battles against Zabuza in part 1, he again, displayed a high level of proficiency with weapons: makishibi spikes to slow down Zabuza, kunai-usage which allowed him to fend of the executioners blade (something which Suigetsu initially struggled to wield), and keen senses which allowed him to repel Zabuza's attack despite being unable to see. He displayed genjutsu ability that was effective against someone that wasn't much weaker than him. He instantly copied Zabuza's Water Dragon jutsu and actually outperformed the original. When his Sharingan was neutralised, he created a strategy which employed letting himself being hit, ninjutsu, summoning a pack of dogs, and completly outsmarting Zabuza thanks to his high level of intelligence.
Why am I re-running this part 1 battle for you? It's to elucidate that, versatility, did indeed, play a huge role of Kakash's wins against Zabuza.

3. Perhaps Kakashi's main weakness in part 1 was his inability to sustain the Sharingan for very long periods of time. This is due to a variety of factors (non-Uchiha body, being out of shape/rusty/depression etc). In BOS, he sustains the Sharingan for an entire day while holding off two Jounin level opponents, who highlight his 

4. Against Kakuzu, he was shown to be instantly read every sign and sneak up on a Kage-level opponent who has  than the majority of the verse. He later displays the ability to use a seal-less double Raikiri in order to repel Kakuzu's Gian. On two occasions, he fended off Hidan with a mere kunai. He showcased the ability to use a sourceless suiton for the first time. And in the end, he implied that he would have taken out Kakuzu with Kamui had Naruto not intervened. He sounds pretty versatile to me.

5. Enter Pain: Here, I don't have to detail Kakashi's versatility. Because Pain 

Against Kaguya, do you think Kakashi outperformed team 7 against Kaguya because he was stronger than all of them combined? I would guess not. While we could agree DMS Kakashi is on the same tier as Naruto and Sasuke, he didn't just outperform them because of his strength, though that was a huge factor, he also displayed tactical genius and leadership abilities as highlighted by the Six of Sage Paths. His ability, skill and sense to use abilities creatively (Kamui Shuriken) are facets of his versatility.

And last but not least, there's
It's a shame that it was off-panelled


*Showcase the Progress*

In part 1, Kakashi had not mastered his Sharingan, to the point that 
In part 2, Kakashi threatened the existence of the Juubi/Gedo Mazo and was only thwarted by the same technique: Kamui. Obito showcases the huge progress Kakashi made , Madara , and finally, Black Zetsu 


*The gap and the Truth*

A rusty out of shape Kakashi beat Zabuza on multiple occasions. The second time, Zabuza was saved by Haku and still failed to land a vital hit on Kakashi. With all the upgrades I've listed above, the gap is huge. While Kakashi is stronger, there is still a narrative at play here; Zabuza was the first main antagonist of the series and has a connection to Kakashi and Naruto. He wasn't brought back to just be one-panelled. This does not however mean that he is in anyway comparable to WA Kakashi.

They were the strongest generation of the 7 swordsman brought back as Edo-tenseo zombies. What happens to people that share the same status as Zabuza but aren't as important to the plot? They get the one shot treatment. Kakashi l

Also, Kakashi one shot Zabuza in a direct clash.

Turrin's argument is as follows:

'Kakashi didn't beat Zabuza straight away and the mist was a problem so that means that there is not a big gap between the fighters.'

A fatuous claim given that there 6 other swordsman to contend with, Kakashi one shot two swordsman on panel (possibly more off panel). And Zabuza is a better practitioner of the mist than Mei, a Kage level fighter. Just because a fighter is not "Kage level" does not mea that they don't have techniques that could prove problematic. The fact that Zabuza is better than a Kage level fighter in this area is an indicator.

While the mist might not mean the end for Kakashi, it is a huge threat to the majority of Kakashi's squad. His job was not to take out Zabuza immediately. It was to lead his squad to victory against the 7SOTM. Which he did.

Creds to Raikiri for some of the scans.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin said:


> There's been a ton of threads about Kakashi recently; and the main thing seems to be whether Kakashi >=< the Sannin or Kages. So I figured I'd give my thoughts.
> 
> Let me start by saying that I feel the 2 most important attributes outside of overwhelming Raw Power (Alien BS); is versatility and exp/knowledge. Kakashi logically has both of these things in spades; he's mastered over 1,000 Jutsu; and he's taken part in so many battles throughout the manga that he has knowledge on almost every Jutsu and the chance to come up with a weakness. On paper Kakashi should be High-Kage; and this is without even getting into Kamui, which is one of the more broken Jutsu in the manga. So I get why his fans like him so much and rate him so highly. Believe me guys I get it.
> 
> ...


15 dislikes, 9 winners, 1 like, 1 disagree, 2 agrees. This one has the board split.

I’m curious how many reps and negs?


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> 15 dislikes, 9 winners, 1 like, 1 disagree, 2 agrees. This one has the board split.
> 
> I’m curious how many reps and negs?



0 negs and a few reps most probably


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> 0 negs and a few reps most probably



Im almost sure Maru has negged him, i feel like he wouldn't let such a mess slide without a neg... Maybe Edogawa too..


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Im almost sure Maru has negged him, i feel like he wouldn't let such a mess slide without a neg... Maybe Edogawa too..



isn't Maru's neg a null, or nulls don't happen anymore in the new system?

@WorldsStrongest can tell us


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> isn't Maru's neg a null, or nulls don't happen anymore in the new system?
> 
> @WorldsStrongest can tell us



What's a null


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> What's a null



neg/rep for 0 points

happened with red bars back in the day

though not sure maru is still red, i think yes


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> isn't Maru's neg a null, or nulls don't happen anymore in the new system?
> 
> @WorldsStrongest can tell us


it's not.


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> it's not.



lol, he negs you too?


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> lol, he negs you too?


Yes...


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> neg/rep for 0 points



Lol im crying  

Nah anyways no, man's neg is real. Just make a comment on how pt 1 Kakashi or Zabuza beats pt 1 Naruto and you'll instantly see for yourself... Happened to me in the past


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Yes...



niga you're maxed out spiral

if he's playing the back and forth neg game with you, WS, and from what I see many others, then he's definitely still red


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

He only negged me one time from what I remember tbh.


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

found it, it was this post:


his neg: "Sorry man, I usually agree with you" 
it was -2000


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> 15 dislikes, 9 winners, 1 like,
> 
> 
> Hardcore said:
> ...


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> found it, it was this post:
> 
> 
> his neg: "Sorry man, I usually agree with you"
> it was -2000



It was a bad post tbf


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Lol im dead  .... 

Btw, Turrin must be in the corner like 

Pretty sure he didn't expect his serious thread to turn into a talk about Maru negs...


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> It was a bad post tbf


So is Kakashi.


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> found it, it was this post:
> 
> 
> his neg: "Sorry man, I usually agree with you"
> it was -2000



2000 is very surprising, then probably from his join date/post count

it was always null if someone was red a few years back


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> it was always null if someone was red a few years back


it should have stayed that way... :V


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

can I neg that post too? @Hussain


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Lol im dead  ....
> 
> Btw, Turrin must be in the corner like
> 
> Pretty sure he didn't expect his serious thread to turn into a talk about Maru negs...



maru's Zabuza thread got about 14 dislikes

Turrin only made this yesterday and he's already surpassed that milestone


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> can I neg that post too? @Hussain


you can if you want, but I usually retaliate. So, if you are ready for a neg
then by all means, go ahead...


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you can if you want, but I usually retaliate. So, if you are ready for a neg
> then by all means, go ahead...



were you one of the guys that would neg people with pronz back in the day?


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> maru's Zabuza thread got about 14 dislikes
> 
> Turrin only made this yesterday and he's already surpassed that milestone



Im so tempted to dislike this thread too... But im not the type to beat a dead horse


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> were you one of the guys that would neg people with pronz back in the day?


No... 

But I was negged with gay porn gif before
and some guy taking a shit if you are interested...


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Im so tempted to dislike this thread too... But im not the type to beat a dead horse



Do it

need to counter the lewdness


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> you can if you want, but I usually retaliate. So, if you are ready for a neg
> then by all means, go ahead...



lol, need to spread 

plus revenge-negging is lame tbh


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## Hardcore (Jul 22, 2019)

Turrin thread went south again


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Do it
> 
> need to counter the lewdness



Lmao ok. Nothing personal Turrin, no hard feeling, aight


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Nah i feel bad 

Turrin's probably not a bad guy, he just has a strange vision sometimes...


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Nah i feel bad
> 
> Turrin's probably not a bad guy, he just has a strange vision sometimes...


The funny part is this thread might be the only one he made in the past several months where he got something correct.  

compared the other garbage he spread around...  

But this is what happened when X character has a massive fanbase...


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Nah i feel bad
> 
> Turrin's probably not a bad guy, he just has a strange vision sometimes...



you'd be doing him a favour in the long run

Stop this lewdness at once!


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> The funny part is this thread might be the only one he made in the past several months where he got something correct.
> 
> compared the other garbage he spread around...
> 
> But this is what happened when X character has a massive fanbase...



He definitly didn't get this one right either... Maybe next time


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## Ayala (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> you'd be doing him a favour in the long run
> 
> Stop this lewdness at once!



Turrin's gotten laughed at and bullied many times over already, yet man comes back for more. He probably grows strong on hate or something


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## Santoryu (Jul 22, 2019)

just found a video of Bonly 

@MaruUchiha 
@Artistwannabe 
@Ayala


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> just found a video of Bonly
> 
> @MaruUchiha
> @Artistwannabe
> @Ayala


So lubrique he must be ignored:


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 22, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> isn't Maru's neg a null, or nulls don't happen anymore in the new system?
> 
> @WorldsStrongest can tell us


Lol

Nah you cant have negative rep points to give out

If you could, Maru definitely would qualify by this point tho

Dudes been hiding his rep for like 6 months now


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Also Turrin consider this:
> 
> Kishi had a story to write, a story which he has to fill with tension and make enjoyable for the reader. You'd think it'd be entertaining for the reader to see Kakashi blitz Zabuza in 2 pages and end the match there? Cause we know he is capable of doing this, as he did it later on.
> 
> We know he got stronger because the manga confirms he got stronger, no need to go through all this struggle to try and demonstrate the contrary.



Exactly, there was a narrative behind Kakashi and Zabuza + Haku that would've been lost had Kakashi actually shit-blitzed Zabuza. We know he's much stronger than Zabuza because we watched him whoop his ass in CQC when he was rusty, shown that he's been training and progressively obtaining new abilities over the course of the series, and battled opponents who make Zabuza look like a joke. Somehow people are adamant that Kabuto = P1 Kakashi yet refuse to acknowledge that he's not even though P1 Naruto nearly killed him. Point is, we've seen much weaker fighters stand up to much stronger fighters, but this doesn't discredit the feats and/or hype that the characters have received.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Jul 22, 2019)

UchihaX28 said:


> Exactly, there was a narrative behind Kakashi and Zabuza + Haku that would've been lost had Kakashi actually shit-blitzed Zabuza. We know he's much stronger than Zabuza because we watched him whoop his ass in CQC when he was rusty, shown that he's been training and progressively obtaining new abilities over the course of the series, and battled opponents who make Zabuza look like a joke. Somehow people are adamant that Kabuto = P1 Kakashi yet refuse to acknowledge that he's not even though P1 Naruto nearly killed him. Point is, we've seen much weaker fighters stand up to much stronger fighters, but this doesn't discredit the feats and/or hype that the characters have received.


Kappa


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## UchihaX28 (Jul 22, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Kappa



Wow, just when I thought I couldn't expect any less from you, you continue to prove me wrong yet again.


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## MaruUchiha (Jul 22, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Lol im crying
> 
> Nah anyways no, man's neg is real. Just make a comment on how pt 1 Kakashi or Zabuza beats pt 1 Naruto and you'll instantly see for yourself... Happened to me in the past


Huh? I don't think Part 1 Naruto > Part 1 Kakashi or Zabuza and I don't neg people that think so


WorldsStrongest said:


> Dudes been hiding his rep for like 6 months now


I'm not hiding shit. I just got tired of neg spammers like you and Suigetsu trying to use that shit against me.. You found out I was almost out of red bar so you started negged me more, so I decided to just take it away. Users trying to talk down to you for having red bar doesn't help either. I could be maxed out with rep points and I would still hide it, users take that shit too serious for me


Santoryu said:


> just found a video of Bonly
> 
> @MaruUchiha
> @Artistwannabe
> @Ayala


Actual footage of Bonly in the NBD


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jul 22, 2019)

Yeah I stopped at he's hot garbage compared to the sannin. Boy bye the only hot garbage is that statement.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Azula (Jul 22, 2019)

Great thread.

Kabuto who was Kakashi's peer showed actual progression from mere jounin to a strong Kage level.

The difference in how they fight is clear. Kakashi struggles and gets beat up until his backup gives him a breather and provides him the opportunity to even attempt Kamui. Kabuto by contrast fights in a relaxed way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## wooly Eullerex (Jul 22, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> Yeah I stopped at he's hot garbage compared to the sannin. Boy bye the only hot garbage is that statement.


No, kakashi is quite the flaming pile of poo compared to the Legendary 3-nin


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## Kisaitaparadise (Jul 22, 2019)

wooly Eullerex said:


> No, kakashi is quite the flaming pile of poo compared to the Legendary 3-nin


._. But NO


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## Hasan (Jul 23, 2019)

My sincere apologies, Turrin, for, _errr_, a slight derailment. Since I mentioned in this thread, here are some snippets from the novel with rough translation; my skills are rudimentary.



村の周りの地面が盛り上がり、土ぼこりを巻き上げながら空高くせりあがって、あっという間に小高い丘ほどの高さの壁になった。
薙苓の北東にはもともと高い崖がそびえているため、平原に面した西と南を土の壁に囲まれた今、村の周囲は崖と壁によって三六〇度ぐるりと守られた形になる。

_The ground around the village swelled up, dust rolled up rising high in the sky, and in no time it became a wall as high as a hill. Since there is originally a high cliff towering over the northeast of the fort, and now earth walls encircle the south and west of the plains, the village's surroundings are now protected by cliffs and walls by 360 degrees.
_
The opposition first use artilleries and cannons, but the wall doesn't budge. Then, there's a shinobi amongst them, who moves forward noting that it's a _Doton_. He readies "Raikiri", saying it's a legendary technique that cut lightning, it will break the wall—

放電は、土流壁に届いた瞬間、吸い込まれたかのように消え失せてしまったのだ。雷撃が当たったはずの場所は、そこだけが水晶のように透き通っている。まるで、土から硝子へと瞬時に素材が入れ替わったようだ。

_The electrical discharge, when it reached the earth wall, disappeared as though it been absorbed. The part where the lightning was supposed to strike appeared transparent like a crystal. It seems that the material was instantly replaced from earth to glass.
_
Then it instantly reverts back to original material. He then explains that there was some scientist who proposed the theory for this technique, but it was a _fantasy-like_ technique and worked only on paper, not in practice. Extremely precise chakra control and speed is required to use this technique. He notes that none can possibly use this technique. His thoughts then shift to...

そういえば、火の国の先代火影は、五遁の達人だと専らの評判だった。彼ならば、ともすれば……。

_Come to think of it, the former Hokage of the Land of Fire has the exclusive reputation of being a master of Goton (Five Elements)...
_
He dismisses the thought and eventually leaves...

「心配はいりません。このように巨大な土の壁を維持するのには、膨大なチャクラを使う。長くはもちませんよ。仮に術者が一人なら、半日も待てば勝手にバテて術を解くはずです」

_Don't worry. In order to maintain such a huge wall, requires huge chakra. It will not last long. If there is only one user, wait for about half a day, it will dissolve.



_
_Here's the other technique: _

巨大な火炎がカカシの頭上で燃え上がり、その中から、一羽の炎の鳥――水霧が飛び出した。

_A huge flame bursts above Kakashi's head, from which, a bird of flame—the Water Mist—flies out._

水霧は、カカシを守るように立ちはだかり、水柱を正面から受け止めた。燃えさかる翼で水柱全体を抱きつぶし、あっという間に飲み込んで、蒸発させていく。

_The Water Mist stood in the way to protect Kakashi, to stop the water column from front. It embraces the entire water column with the blazing wings, swallows it in an instant, and evaporates it._

五遁の相性では火は水に弱いはずが、カカシの水霧は、相性の不利を覆すほどのパワーを持って水鈷に対抗してみせる。水鈷の力の源は、あの六道仙人のチャクラだというのに。

_In the compatibility of Goton (Five Elements) fire is weak to water, but Kakashi's Water Mist has the power to overturn that disadvantage and shows it against the _水鈷_ [It's supposed to be a jewel, I am not sure how to translate it well]. The source of power of _水鈷 _is the Rikudou Sennin's chakra._ 

He can use it like Raijuu Tsuiga as well, where the Katon emanates from his palm of his hand at flash speed, and manipulates its shape as well.

@Ayala @Crimson Flam3s @Santoryu @Mad Scientist @Architect 

I hope I haven't missed anyone from the active Kakashi fans that Ayala tagged earlier.

Reactions: Like 2 | Kage 1


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## Architect (Jul 23, 2019)

Hasan said:


> My sincere apologies, Turrin, for, _errr_, a slight derailment. Since I mentioned in this thread, here are some snippets from the novel with rough translation; my skills are rudimentary.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!
And oh wow
So we have a non konoha shinobi who learned raikiri on his own and that dude uses it against Kakashi's wall? What a coincidence


Hasan said:


> Come to think of it, the former Hokage of the Land of Fire has the exclusive reputation of being a master of Goton (Five Elements)...


isn't he talking about Hiruzen?

And earlier you mentioned thunderclouds created by water mist. Was it result of colission betaeen katon and suiton or was done solely by Water Mist? Could you post a snippet about it here if it's the latter?


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## Hasan (Jul 23, 2019)

Architect said:


> Thank you!
> And oh wow
> So we have a non konoha shinobi who learned raikiri on his own and that dude uses it against Kakashi's wall? What a coincidence


_Oh sorry. _I put it in quotes, because I was going to mention it later. He doesn't actually use _Raikiri_; it's a random Raiton. He's just showing off calling it Raikiri.



> isn't he talking about Hiruzen?


It's Kakashi. The next comment he makes—clarifies it, which reads along the lines...

_"No, no". The man shook his head, dismissing his whimisical thought. The former Hokage is a leading figure responsible for rapid development of the Land of Fire and bringing about peace... He is a world-class figure. No way, he is involved in this coup._

Reactions: Like 3


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## Soul (Jul 23, 2019)

Your threads always get attention Turrin I'll give you that much.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Jul 23, 2019)

Hasan said:


> _Oh sorry. _I put in quotes, because I was going to mention it later. He doesn't actually uses _Raikiri_; it's a random Raiton. He's just showing off calling it Raikiri.


thanks for explaining


Hasan said:


> It's Kakashi. The next comment he makes—clarifies it, which reads along the lines...
> 
> _"No, no". The man shook his head, dismissing his whimisical thought. The former Hokage is a leading figure responsible for rapid development of the Land of Fire and bringing about peace... He is a world-class figure. No way, he is involved in this coup._


ah, Kakashi's elements finally receive some respect!


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## Artistwannabe (Jul 23, 2019)

Hasan said:


> 五遁の相性では火は水に弱いはずが、カカシの水霧は、相性の不利を覆すほどのパワーを持って水鈷に対抗してみせる。水鈷の力の源は、あの六道仙人のチャクラだというのに。
> 
> _In the compatibility of Goton (Five Elements) fire is weak to water, but Kakashi's Water Mist has the power to overturn that disadvantage and shows it against the _水鈷_ [It's supposed to be a jewel, I am not sure how to translate it well]. The *source of power of *_*水鈷 is the Rikudou Sennin's chakra. *


What the fuck does that mean? Kakashi still has rikudou chakra?


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## Mike3DS (Jul 23, 2019)

Hasan said:


> My sincere apologies, Turrin, for, _errr_, a slight derailment. Since I mentioned in this thread, here are some snippets from the novel with rough translation; my skills are rudimentary.


Do you plan to translate the novel(or fragments)  later?
I like your spoilers.


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## Hasan (Jul 23, 2019)

Artistwannabe said:


> What the fuck does that mean? Kakashi still has rikudou chakra?


He uses a Katon called _Fire Release: Water Mist_ that is able to overpower water created through Rikudou Sennin's chakra. 



Mike3DS said:


> Do you plan to translate the novel(or fragments)  later?
> I like your spoilers.


I intend to, since nobody else was willing. It would be a good exercise in improving my grasp on the language.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Architect (Jul 23, 2019)

@Hasan


Architect said:


> And earlier you mentioned thunderclouds created by water mist. Was it result of colission betaeen katon and suiton or was done solely by Water Mist? Could you post a snippet about it here if it's the latter?


could you answer this question please?


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## Hasan (Jul 23, 2019)

Architect said:


> @Hasan
> 
> could you answer this question please?


It's the collision, yes.

カカシと宰相の戦いで生まれた大量の水蒸気は、水霧の熱風による上昇気流であっという間に積乱雲になり、周囲の冷たい空気との間で摩擦を起こして雷雲へと発達した。

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Jul 23, 2019)

Kakashi became Hokage (and was a major candidate even before the war arc) so he is Kage level by definition.
Won't be surprised if with purple lighting he jumps up a few tiers in Boruto.

The Zabuza examples aren't really relevant, that was part 1 Kakashi (who wasn't Kage level).
War arc Kakashi one shotted Zabuza and the others mist swordsmen. 

Also in part 1 he struggled only in their first encounter, in the second one he dominated decisively.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 23, 2019)

Turrin said:


> But the moment that happened, it should be clear that Kakashi hadn't grown much from P1 to P2 in Kishimoto's mind outside Sharingan; which still can be countered by a Jonin, that would be raped by every existing Kage and Sannin.



Biased. 

Kakashi has grown a lot, purple lightning is a huge milestone. However, your Jiraiya bias won't let you see that. 

Also, Turrin. No one is going to believe your interpretation when your interpretation also contradicts what Kishi shows i.e. Jiraiya having Naruto level mastery of Senjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## butcher50 (Oct 15, 2019)

Maybe if Kishimoto didn't design him to look so bland and have an even blander personality (reading smut and sucking naruto's idealistic cock does not equal personality), if he wasn't landing onto a hospital bed after every serious fight, Kakashi's power growth/ability to hang with top-tiers will be easier on the SOD factor.

he also acts smug when kill-stealing (remember Kakuzu)


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## jesusus (Oct 15, 2019)

Kamui gg


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## butcher50 (Oct 16, 2019)

Hatake Kakashi

the most bland (in both looks and personality), named konoha jounin to ever exist yet constantly hyped-up as this super-special Copy Nin with 1000 techniques (if only he could pull them out of his bum), the only person to cover up his face 24/7 while everybody else has to expose their off-duty identities.........in terms of World-Building Kishi why ?

gets hospitalized after every serious round of fighting.................with no consequences (Kamijou Touma has nothing on this guy)

makes shocked, pants-crapping expressions every time the new bad guy proves too strong or pulls out an unexpected move....which was happening quite often. (but we are not supposed to remember that)

Awakens the Magekyou Sharingan, getting access to the Space-time sniping technique....................suddenly all those much hyped 1000 jutsus vanished into irrelevancy.................trips on his chin and ass after using it once or twice a day. (remember this one because it's gonna be important)

acts arrogant when stealing kills after most of the work has already been done for him by other shinobi.

gives sweet jutsus to a boy because he reminds him of his entitled smug young self (instead of you know, slapping the shit out of him for that behavior) while giving nothing to the other two students, way to promote equal team-work Kakashit !

favoritism that is double-useless: despite having no family-busy life of his own never becomes the father figure that sasuke (in his emotionally fragile state) needed.

his fantards: Kamui GG

actually fucking died from chakra exhaustion once when saving Chouji's life.

reads trashy romance novels for bored housewifes in public and thinks he's cool for it.

then Kishimoto needs to give Kakashi his last time to shine (skipped the 7 mist swordsmen rampage): let's have him suddenly keep up and tank MULTIPLE BIJUU MONSTERS and then have him magically (via's Obito's chakra ghost nonsense) summon an instant full form Sussano with no drawbacks with a fully functional Kamui set on top.

stands and does absolutely nothing when a big chunk of meteor was falling on Konoha (keep in mind the guy was the acting Hokage when that happened and here i thought the Kage's job description was to give your life to protect the village).............until Sasuke saves the day.

whatever personality and backbone the man used to have have been reduced to nothing replaced by Naruto Jesus Cult worshiping.

yet despite all that Might Guy (the undisputed top coolest of MEN in the series) considers this trash his rival because...............Author fiat i guess.


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## Ayala (Oct 16, 2019)

Wow seems like Turrin has awakened the beast here


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 16, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The point is that Kakashi is poorly written character whose abilities on paper seem much stronger then they are in practice.


I think you overlooked the point of Kakashi's character. Throughout the manga, each character has their benchmark, Kakashi's benchmark is Hiruzen. Hiruzen was said to have mastered all jutsu in Konoha, Kakashi's mastered over a 1,000. If you look at Kakashi's pupils, Sakura, Sasuke and Naruto all had their initial benchmarks set as the sannin. The parallels exist already. By the end of the manga, Kakashi loses his sharingan and is able to use all elements while retaining access to his 1,000 jutsu. Kishimoto went about it in a roundabout fashion but Hiruzen/Kakashi parallels have existed for a while.

As for something not covered in the databooks or jutsu list, is his fighting style, which has shown to be only unique to him. He doesn't really need anything over the top to defeat people in front of him. That's why you have to respect him because at the end of the day he's kind of like Shikamaru in that regard, where he will out-strategize his opponent using what he has. Case in point, Ashura/Deva Path vs. Kakashi. 

That was a prime example of how Kakashi genuinely fights (resorting to Kamui until the very end, in a last ditch effort) and using any or all tools available to him.


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## Draco Bolton (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> There's been a ton of threads about Kakashi recently; and the main thing seems to be whether Kakashi >=< the Sannin or Kages. So I figured I'd give my thoughts.
> 
> Let me start by saying that I feel the 2 most important attributes outside of overwhelming Raw Power (Alien BS); is versatility and exp/knowledge. Kakashi logically has both of these things in spades; he's mastered over 1,000 Jutsu; and he's taken part in so many battles throughout the manga that he has knowledge on almost every Jutsu and the chance to come up with a weakness. On paper Kakashi should be High-Kage; and this is without even getting into Kamui, which is one of the more broken Jutsu in the manga. So I get why his fans like him so much and rate him so highly. Believe me guys I get it.
> 
> ...


OH NONONONONONONONONONONONO MY FELLOW KAKASHIKEKS WE WERE TOO COCKY. HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY RECOVERS FROM THAT?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> I think you overlooked the point of Kakashi's character. Throughout the manga, each character has their benchmark, Kakashi's benchmark is Hiruzen. Hiruzen was said to have mastered all jutsu in Konoha, Kakashi's mastered over a 1,000. If you look at Kakashi's pupils, Sakura, Sasuke and Naruto all had their initial benchmarks set as the sannin. The parallels exist already. By the end of the manga, Kakashi loses his sharingan and is able to use all elements while retaining access to his 1,000 jutsu. Kishimoto went about it in a roundabout fashion but Hiruzen/Kakashi parallels have existed for a while.
> 
> As for something not covered in the databooks or jutsu list, is his fighting style, which has shown to be only unique to him. He doesn't really need anything over the top to defeat people in front of him. That's why you have to respect him because at the end of the day he's kind of like Shikamaru in that regard, where he will out-strategize his opponent using what he has. Case in point, Ashura/Deva Path vs. Kakashi.
> 
> That was a prime example of how Kakashi genuinely fights (resorting to Kamui until the very end, in a last ditch effort) and using any or all tools available to him.


This may have been Kishi intent for Kakashi’s end point but he didn’t deliver on it well. Hiruzen is known for mastering thousands of Jutsu and showed a high degree of skill in all 5 Elements. Kakashi is still only known for mastering 1,000 by the end of the story (well and 1, Kamui) and hasn’t shown any where near the skill of Hiruzen in the 5 Elements (outside of Raiton). Hiruzen also has horrendously better feats then Kakashi (I would say even with Sharingan, but certainly without it), with him nearly defeating a Sannin and 2 Edo Hokage and being able to clash evenly with Shin Suusenju’s Elemental Blasts; both while past his Prime and the second instance even further weakened, as the Tensei weren’t brought back at their best.

Kishi probably didn’t have time to get to that point with Kakashi in manga, so be just nebulously has it happen off panel after the War (if we believe Kakashi ‘power level’) from the novels, but he certainly wasn’t at that level in the Manga without the Sharingan (again I would say even with it).

I respect Kakashi intellect, but your case and point is bad; even with back up he lost to Deva and Asura Paths; so he did need ‘something’ else there that he didn’t have. Again it is hard for me to believe author intent is for Kakashi to be able to beat anyone beyond ‘Jonin level’ when every time he matches up against opponents like that he looses; and he still struggles heavily with Jonin Swordsman. I think at best Kakashi is suppose to represent the entry point to ‘Kage level’ in the series and at worst he is suppose to be one of the strongest ‘Jonin’ who due to his intellect could easily assume command of a village in verse as a Kage, but doesn’t really measure up to any Kaged in strength until he trains again after the WA


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## Vice (Oct 17, 2019)

blk said:


> Kakashi became Hokage (and was a major candidate even before the war arc) so he is Kage level by definition.
> Won't be surprised if with purple lighting he jumps up a few tiers in Boruto.
> 
> The Zabuza examples aren't really relevant, that was part 1 Kakashi (who wasn't Kage level).
> ...



Kakashi won the second encounter decisively because Zabuza was grieving the loss of Haku. This was explained in the War Arc.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Vice said:


> Kakashi won the second encounter decisively because Zabuza was grieving the loss of Haku. This was explained in the War Arc.


Also because Sasuke solo’d 10 clones nonsensically for Kakashi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

In the 13 years this dude has been involved with this series, he still knows nothing.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This may have been Kishi intent for Kakashi’s end point but he didn’t deliver on it well. Hiruzen is known for mastering thousands of Jutsu and showed a high degree of skill in all 5 Elements. Kakashi is still only known for mastering 1,000 by the end of the story (well and 1, Kamui) and hasn’t shown any where near the skill of Hiruzen in the 5 Elements (outside of Raiton). Hiruzen also has horrendously better feats then Kakashi (I would say even with Sharingan, but certainly without it), with him nearly defeating a Sannin and 2 Edo Hokage and being able to clash evenly with Shin Suusenju’s Elemental Blasts; both while past his Prime and the second instance even further weakened, as the Tensei weren’t brought back at their best.
> 
> Kishi probably didn’t have time to get to that point with Kakashi in manga, so be just nebulously has it happen off panel after the War (if we believe Kakashi ‘power level’) from the novels, but he certainly wasn’t at that level in the Manga without the Sharingan (again I would say even with it).
> 
> I respect Kakashi intellect, but your case and point is bad; even with back up he lost to Deva and Asura Paths; so he did need ‘something’ else there that he didn’t have. Again it is hard for me to believe author intent is for Kakashi to be able to beat anyone beyond ‘Jonin level’ when every time he matches up against opponents like that he looses; and he still struggles heavily with Jonin Swordsman. I think at best Kakashi is suppose to represent the entry point to ‘Kage level’ in the series and at worst he is suppose to be one of the strongest ‘Jonin’ who due to his intellect could easily assume command of a village in verse as a Kage, but doesn’t really measure up to any Kaged in strength until he trains again after the WA


We can agree to disagree, I believe he delivered on it, but did not feel the need to emphasize it, as he did with the rest of Team 7. Kakashi has copied and seen multiple high-level elemental ninjutsu and can execute it just as well, since there is no dropoff in the sharingan. A strong argument can be made regarding War Arc Kakashi facing off against the Part 1 Edo Hokages with Kakashi performing better than Hiruzen.

Kakashi had set up Deva and Ashura for a well-planned trap bunshin which would have nullified Deva long enough for Kakashi to get the final strike. I do think Chouza and co. interfering rendered his strategy null/void, as I don't think Ashura would've survived a Raikiri. His usage of clones and feints is what puts him above the Gokage, because lets be frank most of those guys don't really use it. They are in essence the epitome of 1-trick wonders which is what makes them boring.

As far as the novels are concerned, I haven't read any of them, so I cannot comment on that.


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## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> We can agree to disagree, I believe he delivered on it, but did not feel the need to emphasize it, as he did with the rest of Team 7. Kakashi has copied and seen multiple high-level elemental ninjutsu and can execute it just as well, since there is no dropoff in the sharingan. A strong argument can be made regarding War Arc Kakashi facing off against the Part 1 Edo Hokages with Kakashi performing better than Hiruzen.
> 
> Kakashi had set up Deva and Ashura for a well-planned trap bunshin which would have nullified Deva long enough for Kakashi to get the final strike. I do think Chouza and co. interfering rendered his strategy null/void, as I don't think Ashura would've survived a Raikiri. His usage of clones and feints is what puts him above the Gokage, because lets be frank most of those guys don't really use it. They are in essence the epitome of 1-trick wonders which is what makes them boring.
> 
> As far as the novels are concerned, I haven't read any of them, so I cannot comment on that.


Can you show me Kakashi using a high level Katon or Fuuton in the manga?


I don’t think the authors intent is for us to think Kakashi would have done better without help then with help; I think that’s a highly beneficial way to look at that for Kakashi


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can you show me Kakashi using a high level Katon or Fuuton in the manga?
> 
> 
> I don’t think the authors intent is for us to think Kakashi would have done better without help then with help; I think that’s a highly beneficial way to look at that for Kakashi



The author's intent is for us to think Jiraiya's SM is inferior to Naruto's and that Naruto surpassed Jiraiya in the Pain arc, but that's totally unreasonable to you.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Can you show me Kakashi using a high level Katon or Fuuton in the manga? I don’t think the authors intent is for us to think Kakashi would have done better without help then with help; I think that’s a highly beneficial way to look at that for Kakashi


There's no reason to, Kakashi's seen Atsugai and Zukkoku when he had the sharingan and he was awarded the ability to use fire and wind elements towards the end of the manga.

In that given scenario, Kakashi would have decapitated Ashura first (with the absence of Chouza half-assing the job), therefore Ashura could not have been used later for defensive purposes.


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## Turrin (Oct 18, 2019)

Ryuzaki said:


> There's no reason to, Kakashi's seen Atsugai and Zukkoku when he had the sharingan and he was awarded the ability to use fire and wind elements towards the end of the manga.
> 
> In that given scenario, Kakashi would have decapitated Ashura first (with the absence of Chouza half-assing the job), therefore Ashura could not have been used later for defensive purposes.


Being able to copy a Technique with Sharingan doesn’t mean Kakashi has the skill to use it. The Data-Book unfortunately doesn’t tell us the skill of the person in that element. 

Most likely he would have stabbed Asura through the stomach and Asura would have still be fine to do everything it did later; this is also assuming Kakashi was able to close the distance quick enough to capitalize on Deva cool down


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