# 3-TS Kakashi vs. 3-TS Itachi



## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

*Location:* Kannabi Bridge.

*Starting Distance:* 15m.

*Knowledge:* Manga.

*Restrictions:* Mangekyou Sharingan, Susano'o.

This is War Arc Kakashi and Itachi in Part I health.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 8, 2016)

This is rather close. Would depend on how effective Itachi's genjutsu is when he isn't holding back. Kakashi stalemated Obito but Itachi with superior finesse/skill should be more effective. Both have rigged bunshins and it is hard to pick the best feinter. Kakashi with better ninjutsu/more elements. Plus he can counter Itachi's shown elements(Katon, Suiton) with his own(Suiton, Doton). Awesome fight either way.


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## Mercurial (Apr 8, 2016)

Kakashi is faster and with better reflexes (War Arc feats: counterblitzing Rinnegan and Sharingan enhanced V2 along with Gated Gai and *landing Raikiri* on them, *intercepting*, *outspeeding* and  Obito who had the *same* physical speed of no Shunshin KCM Naruto who is *casually* as fast as Itachi who then Kakashi logically outspeeds, reacting and moving *on par with Minato*,  blitzing Zabuza,  to Juubi Madara's *surprise* attacks), and he has a shitload of more chakra (again, War Arc feats: if he can use 7 Kamui or 5 Kamui plus 3TS Sharingan and a lot of Raikiri and Raikiri variants and other techniques fighting for hours, without having to drain his stamina more for the Mangekyo then he is literally spamming 3TS Sharingan, Raikiri and other ninjutsu). 

Kakashi's taijutsu is on par if not better (spars with fucking freaking Maito Gai, doesn't let Hidan land a finger on him even if the Akatsuki has a superior weapon, teaches a lesson to Adult Obito *even if* the latter wields *chakra rods* etc etc). Kakashi showed increased reactions and *handseals* *skill*/*speed* from Part 1 to Part 2, Itachi's handseal speed is  for him: not to mention that even in Part 1, albeit pressured, he could still  Itachi's fast ninjutsu techniques and  techniques in time. Itachi's genjutsu is better, but he himself *admitted* that 3TS genjutsu won't be enough against Kakashi's 3TS (and made that clear by chosing to use Mangekyo, at the cost of ruining his own eyesight, to defeat Kakashi in Part 1, instead of using a 3TS genjutsu), and from Part 1 well Kakashi gained more impressive feats in genjutsu, battling Obito to a standstill. 

As Kakashi's mastered Mangekyo with Kamui eclipses Itachi's Mangekyo with Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susanoo, even Mangekyo restricted Kakashi's ninjutsu far outclasses Mangekyo restricted Itachi's. Kakashi knows more than *1000 techniques*. Kakashi is an absolute Raiton master, and a very good Suiton and Doton user, while Itachi is at best a good Katon and Suiton user. In CQC and CQC range, Kakashi can pressure and try to blitz with Raikiri and  with , and fight with his Raikiri, Rasengan, Double Raikiri or Raikiri *enhanced* weapons *in his hands*, that means that Itachi can't dare to try to block his attacks (because he will be cut/pierced through by Raikiri/Raikiri variants or overpowered by the Rasengan), he can only dodge then, and that's very difficult when Kakashi is even slightly faster than he is. Itachi can't do anything if Kakashi manages to fool him with a Kage Bunshin, or especially with a Raiton Kage Bunshin, he is literally screwed, and  what , if one ot the two is tricking the other with bushinjutsu that's Kakashi fooling Itachi. Other than evade, Itachi can't do anything against , and he will be really pressured due to the speed of the extended version of Raikiri, which Kakashi can freely control, even to lure Itachi in a trap or to have him open to his real attack. Kakashi can also combo Suiton with Raiton to furtherly increase the power of his own already top notch Raiton, *quickly hide and move underground with Doton* etc etc.

Both are two geniuses, but Kakashi showed to be even smarter and a better tactician in a battle. With manga knowledge, Kakashi also benefits far more than Itachi. Last but not least, Kakashi's physical *toughness* and *also* physical *strength* is definitely above Itachi's. 

Part 1 3TS Kakashi vs 3TS Itachi = Itachi wins high diff
Part 2 3TS Kakashi vs 3TS Itachi = Kakashi wins high diff
War Arc 3TS Kakashi vs 3TS Itachi = Kakashi wins mid diff​


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2016)

Itachi narrowly edged out 

Itachi feinting is better , Kakashi also isn't immune to genjutsu . He is also less skilled with it 

Itachi pulls this off extreme high diff or could even loose extreme high diff 

Am 50/50 on it

Wtf is counter blitz and since when were V2 Jin fast ? Especially weaker jin's .


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 8, 2016)

This is pretty close, but im going to go with itachi, extreme to high difficulty.


Pretty much kakashi has to tag itachi or feint him, given the fact that itachi could spar with bee and kcm Naruto and come out unharmed, i would say tagging him won't be easy.

Itachi can use his genjutsu on the flip side and imo it would be alot more likley to connect.

there pretty much onpar but itachi has a easier win condition to achieve.


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## hbcaptain (Apr 8, 2016)

Itachi wins this , I think he is one cut above this Kakashi version , one cut in every filed , Taijutsu , tactics , quick thinking , speed , excecution speed .... Itachi should take it high diff not extreme diff .


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2016)

Kakashi is most likely to win this.
itachi needed the MS to defeat Kakashi, so I don't see how is he going to win against a better
kakashi without it.


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## Matty (Apr 8, 2016)

Kakashi will win it. Itachi's health and stamina will be factors in his downfall.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

So basically Kakashi is now a chakra monster because he can fight for several days. In that case the whole Ninja Alliance are chakra monsters too since they fought as well. 

We don't even know how much chakra each technique uses. 


Anyways, this fight has been done way too many times already.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

This is a battle of feints, which Kakashi will win every single time.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

Kakashi has a superior arsenal of known jutsu, but Itachi's been portrayed as superior in some key areas like feint/jutsu speed, agility, weapons, insight, and genjutsu. It really comes down to the "better skill vs better weapons" analogy. 

I'm also of the opinion that Itachi can use a watered down Izanagi like the rest of his clan could (before the Uchiha made it forbidden and kept it secret,) and that's an extra hack that only he has access to in this match.


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2016)

I am of the same opinion as sadgoob
And it may just come to izanagi 
As we know kishi retcon it and it doesn't require hashirama Cells


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## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> This is a battle of feints, which Kakashi will win every single time.



Like when Kakashi feinted a 3 tomoe faster than it could perceive or when he feinted a Sage Mode Sensor in a dark cave *sipstea*.

Pretty much what AP said though. I favor Itachi a bit because he was portrayed IMO to be slightly more skilled than Kakashi.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Like when Kakashi feinted a 3 tomoe faster than it could perceive or when he feinted a Sage Mode Sensor in a dark cave *sipstea*.



They use Kakashi feinting Itachi's 30% clone fighting multiple opponents or Kakashi setting up a feint simultaneously to Itachi while Itachi was fighting multiple opponents as proof that Kakashi is the better feinter.

That makes about as much sense as saying Zabuza > Kakashi > Itachi in feints because Zabuza got Kakashi when Kakashi was in an inferior tactical position due to having to protect his fodder Genin team.

In terms of actual speed and execution impressiveness, Itachi clearly wins. Kakashi's smart about it though, that's true. But Itachi's just as smart and opportunistic (unless he's a 30% sick clone already low on chakra.)


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kakashi has a superior arsenal of known jutsu, but Itachi's been portrayed as superior in some key areas like feint/jutsu speed, agility, weapons, insight, and genjutsu. It really comes down to the "better skill vs better weapons" analogy.
> 
> I'm also of the opinion that Itachi can use a watered down Izanagi like the rest of his clan could (before the Uchiha made it forbidden and kept it secret,) and that's an extra hack that only he has access to in this match.



Itachi does not have Izanagi.


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## Bonly (Apr 8, 2016)

I'd say this could go either way, both are really close to each other when it comes to speed and taijutsu with Itachi being slightly ahead and both can counter and/or copy most of each others elemental jutsu. I'd say this comes down to feints and precision attacks and what not upon which I'd slightly favor Itachi thanks to his seal making speed, genjutsu, crows, and clones


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

2016 and people still fucking believe itachi has izanagi

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2016)

I agree with the general consensus, Itachi edges Kakashi out slightly when everything is considered in this match up.



Raikiri19 said:


> [CENTER*]Part 1* 3TS Kakashi vs 3TS Itachi = Itachi wins high diff


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## Santoryu (Apr 8, 2016)

I agree with the general consensus, Kakashi edges Itachi out slightly when everything is considered in this match up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> I agree with the general consensus, Kakashi edges Itachi out slightly when everything is considered in this match up.



Opinion of 2 minato fans and a bot doesn't amount to general consensus though.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Like when Kakashi feinted a 3 tomoe faster than it could perceive or when he feinted a Sage Mode Sensor in a dark cave *sipstea*.


So Itachi has fast handseals, i didn't say he doesn't(also that was a weaker Kakashi and he still reacted). 

He feinted Kabuto when it was two on one. Kakashi feinted two Rinnegan users with shared vision.


Also, he feinted the man himself, Itachi.


from now on my opinion is the general consensus.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

lets see now : 
ninjutsu : kakashi
taijutsu : itachi slightly
genjutsu : itachi 
shurikenjutsu : itachi
speed : tie
reflex : kakashi 
stamina : kakashi 
clone feints : kakashi 
intelligence : itachi 
without the mangekyou, i don't see how itachi wins this , kakashi can keep up with him , and with a nice clean shot , he ends his life with a raikiri to the chest


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Kakashi also has a better feinting tool. Crow bunshin creates an opening but there is still a possibilty to react, if the real Itachi is hit by a RKB it's over.


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


>



To be fair to him, itachi was breathing heavily after he defeated Kakashi. Even tho it was 1-move, but it caused him a lot.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 8, 2016)

Exploding Bunshin is actually more effective than RKB. Doesn't need a follow up if successful.


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## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> So Itachi has fast handseals, i didn't say he doesn't(also that was a weaker Kakashi and he still reacted).


He did it to Kakashi and Hebi Sasuke. It shows Itachi is quicker and more deceptive with his clones. Kakashi's best feat is vs Deva.



> He feinted Kabuto when it was two on one. Kakashi feinted two Rinnegan users with shared vision.


lmao at all the dishonesty.

Sasuke sat there staring at ITachi as Itachi ran 10 meters up to Kabuto and feinted him in between, as even Sasuke thought ITachi had gotten stabbed. Kabuto had nature sensing which gives him miles wide map of all things


Kakashi feinted Deva path after the latter ST'd him and the clone survived against MEcha when he showed up long enough to convince them it was the real kakashi.



> Also, he feinted the man himself, Itachi.


First off, I love how your argument against Itachi was him having back up, but then you neglect to mention the squadron Kakashi had with him 

Let's also neglect the fact that Shouten Itachi was only meant to buy time and act as a major distraction. He had no vitriol like Kisame against Gai.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Kakashi also has a better feinting tool. Crow bunshin creates an opening but there is still a possibilty to react, if the real Itachi is hit by a RKB it's over.



RKB consumes 1/2 of kakashi's chakra , i don't think he'll use unless he's tottaly sure it will work 
regular KB is good uneff , which itachi already got tricked by it


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Exploding Bunshin is actually more effective than RKB. Doesn't need a follow up if successful.


link to exploding bunshin oneshotting someone?



Dr. White said:


> Itachi feinted him in between





> Kakashi feinted Deva path after the latter ST'd him


wow the double standards. i would like a link to both of these claims.

sounds to me like you're filling in the blanks to fit your agenda.



> First off, I love how your argument against Itachi was him having back up, but then you neglect to mention the squadron Kakashi had with him


You mean those guys that stood there doing nothing? Oh yes, i forgot about them.



> Let's also neglect the fact that Shouten Itachi was only meant to buy time and act as a major distraction. He had no vitriol like Kisame against Gai.


He could have bought some more time if he didn't get his ass spanked by kakashi


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> ninjutsu : kakashi
> taijutsu : itachi slightly
> genjutsu : itachi
> shurikenjutsu : itachi
> ...



Eh, I'm sure there'd be variability on people's opinions of this. Mine is:

Ninjutsu: Tie (Ninjutsu arsenal: Kakashi ; Ninjutsu execution: Itachi)
Taijutsu: Tie
Genjutsu: Itachi 
Weapons: Itachi
Speed: Itachi 
Reflex: Itachi Slightly
Stamina: Tie (A healthy Itachi in the inflated War Arc would probably be equal or better.)
Intelligence: Itachi Slightly

As a rule of thumb, I'd say: 

Healthy Itachi > War Kakashi > Sick Itachi > > P1 + early P2 Kakashi


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## Alex Payne (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> link to exploding bunshin oneshotting someone?


Is this your best argument?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2016)

link to RKB 1 shotting anyone

ill wait


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Eh, I'd say:
> 
> Ninjutsu: Tie (Ninjutsu arsenal: Kakashi ; Ninjutsu execution: Itachi)
> Taijutsu: Tie
> ...



this entire post just reeks of fanboyisme , without a single drop of Objectivity 
your avatar is hot AF by the way


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> this entire post just reeks of fanboyisme , without a single drop of Objectivity
> your avatar is hot AF by the way



Pick one and we'll talk about it. I can support all my opinions with evidence. Maybe I'll change your mind and show you the light.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Is this your best argument?


what? you said it's a oneshot, i'm asking for proof.



Icegaze said:


> link to RKB 1 shotting anyone
> 
> ill wait


for a week or so


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## Dr. White (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> wow the double standards. i would like a link to both of these claims.
> 
> sounds to me like you're filling in the blanks to fit your agenda.


Sounds like you have no argument and are trying to copy mine. I already claimed he feinted Deva, but he did not feint them both in the manner you are talking about because mecha wasn't present when the inital feint happened...

Kabuto was completely present the whole time with a map of the surroundings and snakes there as well sensing for him, and Itachi feinted him while running straight at him.

So go ahead and point out where the contradiction is. 



> You mean those guys that stood there doing nothing? Oh yes, i forgot about them.


So then why mention Sasuke as apart of ITachi's credit when he did the same damn thing? _Sounds like a contradiction fitting your agenda.
_



> He could have bought some more time if he didn't get his ass spanked by kakashi


He felt bad about the last time they met and Itachi's wink put him in a coma so he let him cop a small W


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## Itachі (Apr 8, 2016)

I think Kakashi wins this, though it's not concrete. Itachi may have faster handseals but it's nothing that's going to completely overwhelm Kakashi, both are very similar in intelligence and physical stats except Kakashi is far above Itachi in stamina (though it's less substantial when Itachi's not using his Mangekyo) and Ninjutsu. Kakashi's arsenal is much more versatile and while Itachi may use his arsenal to his full potential, Kakashi would do so too. The two characters are feinters so that's why I think this could go either way, but I'm leaning towards Kakashi.


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## Bonly (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> what?* you said* it's a oneshot, i'm asking for proof.
> 
> 
> for a week or so



No he didn't. AP said "Exploding Bunshin is actually more effective than RKB. Doesn't need a follow up if successful.". Being more effective doesn't mean he's saying it's a one shot.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> mecha wasn't present when the inital feint happened





> Itachi feinted him while running straight at him.


deja vu. link, please?



> So then why mention Sasuke as apart of ITachi's credit when he did the same damn thing? _Sounds like a contradiction fitting your agenda.
> _


sounds like you don't know what the fuck you're saying anymore.



> He felt bad about the last time they met and Itachi's wink put him in a coma so he let him cop a small W


Itachi is my fav character, i do not appreciate you shittalking about him.




Bonly said:


> No he didn't. AP said "Exploding Bunshin is actually more effective than RKB. Doesn't need a follow up if successful.". Being more effective doesn't mean he's saying it's a one shot.


Ok exploding bunshin doesn't need a follow up to do some damage. Is that it? Howdoes that make it more effective than RKB which will pretty much guarantee a win the moment it hits.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 8, 2016)

RKB wouldn't work at all on people like Sasuke and A who use Nagashi and RCM respectively. A would likely receive minor-to-zero damage from ExpKB but it would at least create a better distraction. Hiraishin-user would arguably be able to activate Hiraishin after a physical paralyze. While ExpKB might still deal some damage depending on how quickly Hiraishin-users reacted to the explosion. But the main thing - Kakashi might simply not be in a good position for a follow up. Depending on how the fight goes he might be too far or if fighting multiple people/heavy bunshin users - preoccupied with another enemy. RKB is more versatile - you can set up a very powerful finisher, can take your opponent alive, use it where ExpKB AoE is too risky for you/your team, combine it with water, etc. But ExpKB is more effective due to its simplicity. It simply blows your shit up.


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## Santoryu (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> lets see now :
> ninjutsu : kakashi
> taijutsu : itachi slightly
> genjutsu : itachi
> ...



This is how I view it:

Ninjutsu: Kakashi
Taijutsu: Tie (their bunshins clashed equally. Same DB stat. Kakashi has the first gate)
Shurikenjutsu: Itachi
Genjutsu: Itachi
Speed: Tie. Or maybe a _slight _advantage to Itachi.
Reflex: Tie
Stamina: Kakashi
Clone feints: Kakashi
Intelligence: Kakashi. Itachi is better at peering into one's soul and better equipped from a philosophical point of view. But Kakashi seems to be portrayed as the better analyst/tactician


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

That's a terrible reason to call it more effective but w/e floats your boat i guess.

Also bringing up Sasuke and A who conveniently have the perfect counter to it doesn't mean shit.

Hiraishin > everything, so that also doesn't mean shit


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## Icegaze (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> what? you said it's a oneshot, i'm asking for proof.
> 
> 
> 1



That's chouji punch taking him down not RKB
Lolz


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## Mercurial (Apr 8, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> This is how I view it:
> 
> Ninjutsu: Kakashi
> Taijutsu: Tie (their bunshins clashed equally. Same DB stat. Kakashi has the first gate)
> ...



How are speed and reflexes a tie, when Kakashi in the War showed feats far more impressive than Itachi ever did. 

And even CQC skill, I really dunno how that can be. Not to mention that in a CQC clash Kakashi will always be the victor, with things like Raikiri/Double Raikiri, Rasengan and Raikiri infused weapons to enhance his taijutsu, while Itachi has... nothing: he can't try to block any of Kakashi's Raiton enhanced hits or he will be chopped in half or pierced. And not being able to block against an opponent as fast and skilled as you are (if not better, by manga feats), it's really detrimental.

Also Kakashi's ninjutsu and stamina are far above Itachi's. Let's not remain in Part 1, when Itachi needed the Mangekyo to defeat a far weaker Kakashi than this version of the Copy Ninja, anyway.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> 2016 and people still fucking believe itachi has izanagi




All Uchiha's are capable of using Izanagi, as mentioned in the manga, which is why they created Izanami in the first place.


If the fodders back in the past were capable granted knowledge of the technique, there is absolutely no reason why Itachi, who is one of the most knowledgeable Uchiha wouldn't be able to use it either. It's also a fact that Itachi knows about the technique.


It's not like he's ever used Izanami before, yet he can still use it.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakashi is far above Itachi in stamina




I highly disagree with that assertion. I don't really see where Kakashi's stamina is *far* above Itachi's. The difference in stamina seems relatively small (if it even exists).

*On his deathbed, Itachi was able to use:*

Crow Fuinjutsu (_sealed_ in Naruto and _set up to activate_ upon seeing Sasuke's Sharingan)
3 x Karasu Bunshin (one against Naruto and two against Sasuke)
3 x Sharingan Genjutsu (one against Naruto, then layers of Sharingan Genjutsu against Sasuke)
2 x Goukakyuu
1 x Tsukuyomi
1 Massive x Amaterasu
1 x Human-sized Amaterasu *bursts* (as in several)
1 x  Amaterasu Transcription Seal
V4/V3 Susano'o *for a few minutes*

*In his battle against Obito, Kakashi was able to use:*

2 x Kage Bunshin
7 x Raikiri
1 x Raiton Kunai
1 x Doton Wall
2 x Small Kamui (Kunai, Rasengan)
2 x Human-sized Kamui (Kage Bunshin, returning from Boxland)
1 x Massive Kamui (Gedou Mazou's head)

***​
Do you really think that _Kamui_ requires the same amount of chakra as _Susano'o_? If you consider how much chakra it would take to produce a gigantic chakra construct like Susano'o (which provides a potent offense and defense), Itachi's V3/V4 Susano'o should require a _lot_ more chakra than conventional (kunai or human-sized) usage of Kamui does just based on its size and potency. Additionally, the _majority_ of Kamui usage in Kakashi's battle against Obito was *tiny amounts* (Rasengan, Kage Bunshin, Kunai) in comparison to the majority of Itachi's usage of Amaterasu (several human-sized bursts). Itachi, on the other hand, used an objectively more taxing Mangekyou Technique in Susano'o long enough to block Kirin, fight Orochimaru, and walk towards Sasuke _in addition to_ several bursts of Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, and a couple of Sharingan-based Fuinjutsu and Genjutsu.

The amount of chakra required for Kamui usage is directly proportional to how big the S/T Barrier is. However, the amount of chakra required for Susano'o is directly proportional to how big the Susano'o is _in addition to_ how long Susano'o is used. A comparison of the chakra required for Susano'o and Kamui is not a standard comparison, in that sense. It's also very difficult to quantitatively compare the amount of chakra used for Tsukuyomi to the amount of chakra used for Kamui because the way in which those two jutsu manifest and function are extremely different (and Tsukuyomi's potency in particular is hard to measure).

In short, Kakashi's usage of Kamui can't be directly compared to Itachi's usage of all three Mangekyou Techniques merely in terms of the *number* of times they were used; the *size and potency*  of the Mangekyou Techniques must also be taken into account. Mangekyou Techniques are also known to be far more taxing than other jutsu, and Itachi used more of Mangekyou Techniques than Kakashi did against Obito. In fact, 30% of Itachi's chakra wasn't even enough to use the Mangekyou. Yet, Itachi could use:


1 x Gouakakyuu
1 x Finger Genjutsu
1 x Sharingan Genjutsu

... Without being tired _at all_. Itachi should be capable of easily doing three times that amount with just 30% of his chakra, so with 100% of his chakra, Itachi should be capable of far more ninjutsu. The Uchiha Clan is stated to have massive chakra pools in the Third Databook, so Itachi's low stamina score was likely due mainly to his illness moreso than his chakra levels. Given all of this evidence, I think that Itachi and Kakashi's stamina levels are a lot closer than you suggested. 

As for versatility, Itachi has the Sharingan too; he can copy Kakashi's ninjutsu (which he has shown the affinity to use) and vice-versa. 

It's a close match either way, though.​

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> How are speed and reflexes a tie, when Kakashi in the War showed feats far more impressive than Itachi ever did.
> 
> And even CQC skill, I really dunno how that can be. Not to mention that in a CQC clash Kakashi will always be the victor, with things like Raikiri/Double Raikiri, Rasengan and Raikiri infused weapons to enhance his taijutsu, while Itachi has... nothing: he can't try to block any of Kakashi's Raiton enhanced hits or he will be chopped in half or pierced. And not being able to block against an opponent as fast and skilled as you are (if not better, by manga feats), it's really detrimental.
> 
> Also Kakashi's ninjutsu and stamina are far above Itachi's. Let's not remain in Part 1, when Itachi needed the Mangekyo to defeat a far weaker Kakashi than this version of the Copy Ninja, anyway.





Well......Itachi's reflex is a tier above EMS Sasuke for starters. His speed is pretty self explanatory, not sure if I need to explain at all. There's no way that Kakashi is "far more impressive" in those two regards.


Kakashi's stamina isn't "far above Itachi" at all. Itachi outlasted a Hebi Sasuke while he was using MS techniques.    Kakashi's feats in the war is iffy at best and should be taken with common sense.
In the 2 years there is no way a fully grown adult ninja can suddenly improve his chakra levels 2 to 3 folds. If that's the case, in a few more years Kakashi would be walking around with Hashirama level chakra.   What he has improved was the control of his MS techniques which allowed him to use it more conservatively.

Raigeki and Lightning enhanced weapon attacks will be troublesome for sure, but so will exploding bunshin, crow bunshin, shurikens from blind spots and handseals speed that's too fast to see.  I mean, he even feinted his own teammate Sasuke during the Kabuto fight. Sasuke with EMS didn't even realise as well.

wasn't even enough

In a battle of feints, what do you think is the most important?   Handseal speed and Intellect. With the addition to the fact that Itachi can "Read other people's feelings and use it in battle" statement, wasn't even enough  Itachi won't be at a disadvantage at all.

Additionally, Itachi never "needed" MS to beat Kakashi in Part 1, he made it perfectly clear he only wanted to end it quickly. 

This is never going to be an easy fight with MS excluded, but let's not pretend that one is vastly superior to the other without MS. 


How would you rate this statement from Kabuto?

wasn't even enough


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> All Uchiha's are capable of using Izanagi, as mentioned in the manga, which is why they created Izanami in the first place.
> 
> 
> If the fodders back in the past were capable granted knowledge of the technique, there is absolutely no reason why Itachi, who is one of the most knowledgeable Uchiha wouldn't be able to use it either. It's also a fact that Itachi knows about the technique.
> ...



how the hell can someone be an izanagi and izanami user at the same time 

anyway , he is not listed in the izanagi users list but if you believe he is , please show me , where was that mentioned


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> how the hell can someone be an izanagi and izanami user at the same time




You're not really providing a good reason why Itachi wouldn't be able to use both Izanagi and Izanami.



> anyway , he is not listed in the izanagi users list but if you believe he is , please show me , where was that mentioned




Well, Sasuke isn't listed as a user of Rinne Tensei, but do you doubt that he can use it given his shown proficiency with the Rinnegan?​


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> You're not really providing a good reason why Itachi wouldn't be able to use both Izanagi and Izanami.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i don't give a crap about sasuke or his rinnegan , itachi is not listed as an izanagi user , so i don't have any reason to believe he is one


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> how the hell can someone be an izanagi and izanami user at the same time
> 
> anyway , he is not listed in the izanagi users list but if you believe he is , please show me , where was that mentioned




That's like asking how one can possess Suiton and Katon at the same time.


Not all Sharingan users are listed as "The Copy Ninja" but they can still copy jutsu's.  What's your point? It was stated in the manga that the Uchiha's used Izanagi during important missions and Itachi said that if only one were able to use it, it wouldn't be a problem, but A LOT of them were capable of using it, which is why they created Izanami. 

If fodder Uchiha's can use it, there's no reason why Itachi can't when he's got all the information/knowledge on it.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> That's like asking how one can possess Suiton and Katon at the same time.



izanami was created to be used against those who doen't accept themselves , like the izanagi users for example , they deny their destiny , and deny their reality IIRC 
anyway , i see you don't have a proof to counter the already existed proof that itachi is not an izanagi user , moving on


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> itachi is not listed as an izanagi user , so i don't have any reason to believe he is one




The fact that Itachi knows Izanami (Izanagi's counterpart) and that the Uchiha Clan was stated to be capable of using Izanagi at large are both pieces of evidence that show Itachi's capability for learning Izanagi. Whether or not you think Itachi can use Izanagi is your opinion, but you shouldn't blatantly ignore facts that suggest the contrary. You can't have any sort of meaningful discussion if you hand-wave or ignore completely valid points.

As I was trying to show you, just because the Databook doesn't list someone as a user of a jutsu doesn't mean that they can't use it.​

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

It did get retconned, because Izanagi was such a frequent problem among Uchiha clan members that they made Izanami to counter it. 

There were literally so many people using an eyeball-costing technique that they made another eyeball-costing technique to stop it.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> The fact that Itachi knows Izanami (Izanagi's counterpart) and that the Uchiha Clan was stated to be capable of using Izanagi at large are both pieces of evidence that show Itachi's capability for learning Izanagi. Whether or not you think Itachi can use Izanagi is your opinion, but you shouldn't blatantly ignore facts that suggest the contrary. You can't have any sort of meaningful discussion if you hand-wave or ignore valid points.​



madara knows about the 8 gates , i guess he is a gates user 
jiraiya knows about hiraishin , i guess he is a hairaishi user 
nagato knows about the rinnegan , i guess he is a limbo user 
knowing about something =/= using it 
i don't talk out of no where , there are people who are listed as an izanagi users , itachi is not one of them , i see no reason to make a big deal out of this


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> madara knows about the 8 gates , i guess he is a gates user
> jiraiya knows about hiraishin , i guess he is a hairaishi user
> nagato knows about the rinnegan , i guess he is a limbo user
> knowing about something =/= using it
> i don't talk out of no where , there are people who are listed as an izanagi users , itachi is not one of them , i see no reason to make a big deal out of this






Madara never learned to use the gates. Madara even said so himself that it's rare to get to fight the 8th gate.

Only two known users who can use Hirashin in combat (Minato/Tobirama).

Nagato is not the original wielder of Rinnegan so he obviously can't.

Izanagi was used by many Uchiha's in the past, so much so that they had to create a technique to stop people from using it. 

If you can't accept this simple logic, then I won't bother anymore.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

itachi has izanagi? 

it's 2016 and people are still inventing new arguments?


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> knowing about something =/= using it




First of all, knowing how to use something is not the same as knowing _of_ something.

So these:



> madara knows about the 8 gates , i guess he is a gates user
> jiraiya knows about hiraishin , i guess he is a hairaishi user




Are absolutely terrible examples to refute with.

Furthermore, Itachi is portrayed as and has been shown to be more skilled than the average Uchiha who were apparently capable of using Izanagi.

So this:



> nagato knows about the rinnegan , i guess he is a limbo user




Is equally as terrible as your prior two examples because the gap in skill between Nagato and Madara is greater than the gap in skill between Itachi and the average Uchiha.



> i don't talk out of no where , there are people who are listed as an izanagi users , itachi is not one of them , i see no reason to make a big deal out of this




The people who suggested that Itachi could use Izanagi weren't talking out of nowhere either; their suggestions are backed by some form of manga evidence--something every single of one of your refutations lacked. Lastly, and for the third and probably final time, the fact that someone is not listed as a user of a particular jutsu in the Databook is not enough evidence to suggest that they can't use that jutsu.​


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> itachi has izanagi?
> 
> it's 2016 and people are still inventing new arguments?




Haha, for someone who constantly calls himself an "Itachi Fan" I  would have expected to see you excited and get involved in the argument.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Madara never learned to use the gates. Madara even said so himself that it's rare to get to fight the 8th gate.
> 
> Only two known users who can use Hirashin in combat (Minato/Tobirama).
> 
> ...



AHA , so you do agree that they are not mentioned as user of those jutsus i listed 
just like how itacji is not mentioned as an izanagi user in the canon databook 
have a great day


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Haha, for someone who constantly calls himself an "Itachi Fan" I  would have expected to see you excited and get involved in the argument.


I am probably the biggest Itachifan on this forum, i love him to death. But i try to stay realistic when discussing him in the BD. I could go wank mode and argue he has it, but i don't think he does.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> I am probably the biggest Itachifan on this forum, i love him to death. But i try to stay realistic when discussing him in the BD. I could go wank mode and argue he has it, but i don't think he does.



Why do you think he can't?  I want to hear your reasons why you think he doesn't have it.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

> just like how itacji is not mentioned as an izanagi user in the canon databook
> have a great day



Neither is Madara. A canon Izanagi user.

And Itachi never used Izanagi. But could.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Why do you think he can't?  I want to hear your reasons why you think he doesn't have it.


How about the fact that it was never mentioned he has it? I'm pretty sure Kishi would have told us whether Itachi has such a powerful jutsu or not.


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

It was never mentioned that Sasuke had Rinne Tensei either. I'm pretty sure he still has it, though.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> It was never mentioned that Sasuke had Rinne Tensei either. *I'm pretty** sure he still has it*, though.



proof ?


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

He's shown the prerequisite skill in using the other abilities of the Rinnegan.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> It was never mentioned that Sasuke had Rinne Tensei either. I'm pretty sure he still has it, though.


Rinne Tensei isn't a combat ability. Itachi having or not having Izanagi is a big thing when it comes to his battle prowess.


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Rinne Tensei isn't a combat ability. Itachi having or not having Izanagi is a big thing when it comes to his battle prowess.




... And? The power to bring someone back from the dead is a pretty big thing in any context.

Rinne Tensei can be used in battle too, in fact.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> He's shown the prerequisite skill in using the other abilities of the Rinnegan.



lets see :
shinra tensei ? no 
bansho tennin ? no
limbo ? no
preta path ? yes , he used it 
asura path ? well , he never used it , but the databook says he has it 
chibaku tensei ? yes he has it 
animal path ? never used it but according to the databook he has it 
samsara of heavenly life ? never used it , the databook never mentioned he has it 
so no , i need a stronger proof


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> ... And?


So i'd expect Kishi to tell us whether he has it. Don't be dense now.

Might as well assume Tobirama has SM.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2016)

There is no proof that Itachi has Izanagi, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could actually use it. 
Sort of like how there is no proof that Sasuke can use Shinra Tensei, but he used its counterpart, Chibaku Tensei. So If he were to use ST it wouldn't come to me as a shock.

I am not sure how that came into discussion, though I don't think it is an ability Itachi needs to have to win this match. It would give him a significant edge, but I believe that he already has what it takes to win.


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no proof that Itachi has Izanagi, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could actually use it.
> Sort of like how there is no proof that Sasuke can use Shinra Tensei, but he used its counterpart, Chibaku Tensei. So If he were to use ST it wouldn't come to me as a shock.


This pretty much. It's the same with my example of Tobirama and SM. It wouldn't surprise me if Itachi has Izanagi and Tobirama has SM, but something so powerful would have been mentioned if it was the case.


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## Santoryu (Apr 8, 2016)

It wouldn't surprise me if Kakashi could use Tsukuyomi. Copy ninja and all.....

Doesn't mean he actually can


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no proof that Itachi has Izanagi, but I wouldn't be surprised if he could actually use it.
> Sort of like how there is no proof that Sasuke can use Shinra Tensei, but he used its counterpart, Chibaku Tensei. So If he were to use ST it wouldn't come to me as a shock.
> 
> I am not sure how that came into discussion, though I don't think it is an ability Itachi needs to have to win this match. It would give him a significant edge, but I believe that he already has what it takes to win.



thread /


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Nagato is not the original wielder of Rinnegan so he obviously can't.



Neither is Madara. The eyes he has are Izuna's original eyes.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if Kakashi could use Tsukuyomi. Copy ninja and all.....
> 
> Doesn't mean he actually can



you were repped 



Hussain said:


> Neither is Madara. The eyes he has are Izuna's original eyes.



he awakened the rinnegan by putting hashi's boob in his body , what does izuna's eyes has to do with this ?


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> It wouldn't surprise me if Kakashi could use Tsukuyomi. Copy ninja and all.....
> 
> Doesn't mean he actually can



Or even Susanoo, I guess.

Since madara used it without eyes, being able to use it with 1 eye seems more possible. 

Heck, why can't Kakashi himself use Izanagi/Izanami as well if itachi could? He also has the sharingan here. lol



> he awakened the rinnegan by putting hashi's boob in his body , what does izuna's eyes has to do with this ?



They have everything to do with it since they were changed to become Rinnegan.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Or even Susanoo, I guess.
> 
> Since madara used it without eyes, being able to use it with 1 eye seems more possible.
> 
> ...



he could've awakened the rinnegen even without izuna's eyes if he had hashirama's DNA , no ? 

however , without izuna's eyes , he would've lost his eyesight and become blind 

making him less then a fodder eventually


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> This pretty much. It's the same with my example of Tobirama and SM. It wouldn't surprise me if Itachi has Izanagi and Tobirama has SM, but something so powerful would have been mentioned if it was the case.



Its not the same case at all. 

Minato has the toad contract and he was visualized by the toads when they thought Naruto had surpassed "those who came before him."

Tobirama has no link to toads or SM at all.


Itachi having Izanagi is a stronger case than Tobirama having SM. It is more comparable to Minato having it, although I think Minato having it was a retcon because there were numerous instances that contradict with him having it which makes Itachi's case stronger compared to his.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its not the same case at all.
> 
> Minato has the toad contract and he was visualized by the toads when they thought Naruto had surpassed "those who came before him."
> 
> ...



not all sage modes are related to the toads , in fact hashirama's sage mode doesn't seem to be related to any animals


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## ~M~ (Apr 8, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Neither is Madara. A canon Izanagi user.
> 
> And Itachi never used Izanagi. But could.



Madara is canon he used it to survive vote...



cctr9 said:


> not all sage modes are related to the toads , in fact hashirama's sage mode doesn't seem to be related to any animals



Slugs


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> not all sage modes are related to the toads , in fact hashirama's sage mode doesn't seem to be related to any animals



Doesn't have to. 
Hashirama's SM came out of nowhere. If Tobirama used it, it would come out of nowhere too.

If Itachi used Izanagi, no one would be surprised because of the link he had through Izanami. Thats what I was saying.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Slugs



proof ?


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## ~M~ (Apr 8, 2016)

There's some scan mentioning the slug mountain as one of the places to learn sage mode

Given his hereditary connection to tsunade its the answer that thus makes the most sense.


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## Android (Apr 8, 2016)

~M~ said:


> There's some scan mentioning the slug mountain as one of the places to learn sage mode
> 
> Given his hereditary connection to tsunade its the answer that thus makes the most sense.



if it was , it would've been mentioned in the databook or in the manga 
so until it's confirmed , the '' slug sage mode '' is still a fan made thing


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## ImSerious (Apr 8, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Doesn't have to.
> Hashirama's SM came out of nowhere. If Tobirama used it, it would come out of nowhere too.
> 
> If Itachi used Izanagi, no one would be surprised because of the link he had through Izanami. Thats what I was saying.


How would Tobirama's come out of nowhere when Hashi already came out with it? Once Hashi used it there is little reason for Tobirama not having it.


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## Trojan (Apr 8, 2016)

To be honest, Grimmjowsensei's point of view is logical in term of itachi using it. Especially after Kishi retconned the fact that it require Hahi's cells.

Regardless. Danzo with Hashi's power was only able to use Izanagi for 1 minute only. So, even if itachi could use it, it should be much less than 1 minute.

And in either case, I don't think it should be included in those threads as even if he does have it, it seems OOC for him to use it since he did not use it in any battle.


Heck, people keep bitching when someone brings Minato's SM to the table even tho we know for a fact that he has it, and we know for a fact that the frogs can make it unlimited like with Jiraiya and many other things, and some of those who bitch about that are itachi's fans themselves.

So, how it's more likely that itachi would use Izanagi when we don't even know for a fact that he has it or not, nor has he ever used it in any battle whatsoever?

And it's no different than giving Kakashi jutsu from everywhere because he has "1000 jutsu" so we asspull different jutsu for him.
Or giving Hiruzen any jutsu inside of Konoha because it was stated that he knows them all. Like is there any one includes the Gates, FTG, ET...etc etc
when there is a Hiruzen thread?


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## Saru (Apr 8, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And in either case, I don't think it should be included in those threads as even if he does have it, it seems OOC for him to use it since he did not use it in any battle.




I agree with this.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that Itachi having Izanagi is a completely reasonable assumption. It's not even something I take into consideration though, personally.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 8, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Madara is canon he used it to survive vote...



My point is that Madara isn't listed as a user in the DB even though he's a canon user. So the argument that Itachi can't have Izanagi because he's not listed as a user in the DB is wrong.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 9, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> So i'd expect Kishi to tell us whether he has it. Don't be dense now.
> 
> Might as well assume Tobirama has SM.




How many Sage Mode users are there? 


And how many Izanagi users are there......It's a known fact that Izanagi users isn't as rare as Sage mode, so comparing the two is unreasonable. 
Given the fact that Itachi never needed it in the first place, whereas Tobirama would've needed it against Juubito.




(Somebody above also mentioned that Kakashi should also be able to use it) Which is perfectly fine considering Kakashi has the Sharingan and we've seen a non-Uchiha using it. But given the lack of intel Kakashi has on the technique itself AND the fact that Kakashi only has 1 eye means that he would never use it even if he has access to it in the first place.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 9, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> How would Tobirama's come out of nowhere when Hashi already came out with it? Once Hashi used it there is little reason for Tobirama not having it.



I think the family link is not a strong connection since SM is not a bloodline ability. There is also the fact that Tobirama and Hashirama look, act and fight completely different. Other than that blood link they absolutely have nothing in common. Maybe it wouldn't be totally uncalled for, but I don't think Itachi is in the same boat with him in regards to Izanagi.


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## Bkprince33 (Apr 9, 2016)

So if tobirama had sage Mode he would of use it on Jubito you know the guy who only could be hurt by senjutsu attacks 



I don't know if itachi has izanagi, but i wouldn't be surprise because he has izanami.


However in tobirama's case he fought a opponent who was above anything he's ever faced and given that only senjutsu could hurt jubito, it would make zero sense for him not to use it if he had it.


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## hbcaptain (Apr 9, 2016)

Tobirama isn't listed as a Senjutsu user in the DB .


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## Android (Apr 9, 2016)

Bkprince33 said:


> So if tobirama had sage Mode he would of use it on Jubito you know the guy who only could be hurt by senjutsu attacks
> 
> 
> 
> ...



minato had sage mode , but he didn't use it against juubito 
sasuke had preta path , yet he didn't use it against momoshiki ..............at all 
kakashi had the mangekyou , but he never used it in part 1 
but i agree anyway


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 9, 2016)

Kakashi has a better arsenal to work with, other than that, the rest of their stats are either non-factors or negligible in difference. However, I'd side with Kakashi winning due to him already duping Itachi w/a clone feint.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 9, 2016)

He duped a shouten clone.


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## Saru (Apr 9, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi has a better arsenal to work with, other than that, the rest of their stats are either non-factors or negligible in difference. However, I'd side with Kakashi winning due to him already duping Itachi w/a clone feint.




That same Kakashi couldn't handle Itachi by himself.

And I wouldn't say that Itachi's speed difference is negligible. Itachi can likely feint Kakashi in front of his own eyes the way he did Sasuke.​


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## Dr. White (Apr 9, 2016)

Technically Itachi feinted Kakashi, Naruto, Sakura, and Chiyo in that battle


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 9, 2016)

Itachi has many feints. Crow clone feint, exploding clone feint.
But his greatest feint is.. the shouten clone feint.


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## LightningForce (Apr 9, 2016)

Seems like everyone has already had their input here. The general consensus is that it's very close, and I'd be inclined to agree, giving Kakashi the edge here because of the drastic improvements we've seen with his stamina, CQC, and Sharingan usage.



Saru said:


> That same Kakashi couldn't handle Itachi by himself.
> 
> And I wouldn't say that Itachi's speed difference is negligible. Itachi can likely feint Kakashi in front of his own eyes the way he did Sasuke.​



And Kakashi can likely react to such a feint with his own, as we saw during his Part I fight. Both are excellent tacticians, and don't go rushing at an opponent without a backup.


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## Saru (Apr 9, 2016)

You can't _react to_ a feint with a feint...


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2016)

Saru said:


> You can't _react to_ a feint with a feint...



Itachi can. He does them so fast that Sharingan users looking right at his general direction miss them. Kurenai was watching Itachi the whole time he did one against Kakashi and she didn't see _anything_. Hence calling him superhuman.

Kakashi used the wall of water as a LOS blocker to do so. Smart. But not a feint speed feat.


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## Saru (Apr 9, 2016)

What I mean is that it's not possible for someone to pop a Bunshin, then make a Bunshin of their own in response to the attack coming their way and then _feint_ that attacker. Against some characters it may be possible, sure. Not against someone of Kakashi's caliber (and vice versa). Itachi simply needs less of a distraction and less time to pull off his Bunshin feints.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 9, 2016)

Oh yeah, definitely not in this match. I agree.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 30, 2016)

Saru said:


> That same Kakashi couldn't handle Itachi by himself.
> 
> And I wouldn't say that Itachi's speed difference is negligible. Itachi can likely feint Kakashi in front of his own eyes the way he did Sasuke.​


War Arc Kakashi had a better stamina pool to work with, I'd say the speed difference is negligible because Part 1 Kakashi was able to respond to Itachi's assault and a faster, more polished version of him towards the end of manga would be able to do much better.


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## S (Apr 30, 2016)

Did i miss something?, did Itachi get new feats i dont know about? I see people seriously arguing Itachi is on the same level or even better then Hashirama, Madara, Nagato or sage Kabuto??

On topic, Kakashi wins, he is better at almost everything except genjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 30, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> War Arc Kakashi had a better stamina pool to work with, I'd say the speed difference is negligible because Part 1 Kakashi was able to respond to Itachi's assault and a faster, more polished version of him towards the end of manga would be able to do much better.



Itachi wasn't even trying and he casually forced Kakashi into the defensive.

P1 Itachi is also much slower, so P1 Kakashi being able to react to his techniques are not evidence that War Arc Kakashi can react to P2 Itachi's. Given what the manga has shown, there's just no way that Kakashi could react to his feint. Itachi performed the same feint against SM Kabuto twice who is by far, a stronger and more reflexive combatant than War Arc Kakashi is.

 Edit: Ah shit, this is P1 Itachi. Never mind then.


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## Ryuzaki (Apr 30, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi wasn't even trying and he casually forced Kakashi into the defensive.
> 
> P1 Itachi is also much slower, so P1 Kakashi being able to react to his techniques are not evidence that War Arc Kakashi can react to P2 Itachi's. Given what the manga has shown, there's just no way that Kakashi could react to his feint. Itachi performed the same feint against SM Kabuto twice who is by far, a stronger and more reflexive combatant than War Arc Kakashi is.
> 
> Edit: Ah shit, this is P1 Itachi. Never mind then.


Speed is negligible because Kakashi duped his Shoten clone at the beginning of part 2. These guys would execute bunshin feints on each other without a problem. I don't think speed is an issue here because both have the sharingan and one was responding to Itachi (when he was a full tier slower). A clone feint? He made the clone beforehand, nothng says that Kakashi can't do the same to Itachi since he's already done it before.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 30, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Speed is negligible because Kakashi duped his Shoten clone at the beginning of part 2. These guys would execute bunshin feints on each other without a problem. I don't think speed is an issue here because both have the sharingan and one was responding to Itachi (when he was a full tier slower). A clone feint? He made the clone beforehand, nothng says that Kakashi can't do the same to Itachi since he's already done it before.



 You mean the same one that lacked killer intent and was extremely ill?

 Itachi's ocular prowess as stated enables him to read his opponent's intentions, so he merely peers into his soul, becomes aware of Kakashi's bunshin and simply reacts accordingly. Using Kakashi's feat against Shoten Itachi proves nothing because Itachi was much much slower and his purpose was to stall which he did successfully.


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## Ryuzaki (May 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You mean the same one that lacked killer intent and was extremely ill?
> 
> Itachi's ocular prowess as stated enables him to read his opponent's intentions, so he merely peers into his soul, becomes aware of Kakashi's bunshin and simply reacts accordingly. Using Kakashi's feat against Shoten Itachi proves nothing because Itachi was much much slower and his purpose was to stall which he did successfully.


He wasn't ill when he fought Kakashi, he wasn't suffering side-effects, the illness didn't take a hold of Itachi until he started using his MS, which he didn't against Kakashi and co. This thread should be no different, since it's limited and excluded all together. You can dance around the topic all you want, without his MS, Itachi is a very beatable character by any number of characters; Kakashi just happens to be one of them.


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## Mercurial (May 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> You mean the same one that lacked killer intent and was extremely ill?
> 
> Itachi's ocular prowess as stated enables him to read his opponent's intentions, so he merely peers into his soul, becomes aware of Kakashi's bunshin and simply reacts accordingly. Using Kakashi's feat against Shoten Itachi proves nothing because Itachi was much much slower and his purpose was to stall which he did successfully.



Lacked killed intent, and yet tried to kill him multiple times. And left him in a comatose state, which can be said even worse than killing him.

The second part doesn't make any sense to me, honestly. Itachi could do that to a youngster who managed to put his hands on a lot of power. Doing the same to a very skilled and experienced fighter? Not a chance. It's a completely different situation.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> He wasn't ill when he fought Kakashi, he wasn't suffering side-effects, the illness didn't take a hold of Itachi until he started using his MS, which he didn't against Kakashi and co. This thread should be no different, since it's limited and excluded all together. You can dance around the topic all you want, without his MS, Itachi is a very beatable character by any number of characters; Kakashi just happens to be one of them.



This is not true. Itachi was suffering from the side-effects the entire time as he had to take medicine in order to keep himself alive long enough to fight Sasuke. He was literally on his death-bed, so the illness impacted his abilities the entire time.

Since this is P1 Itachi up against War Arc Kakashi, then yes, Kakashi wins, but Healthy Itachi is an entirely different story as he's much faster and stronger than Sick Itachi which was stated and shown in the manga. Personally, the way Itachi reacted to and managed to act one-step ahead of a superior combatant is enough to show me that Healthy Itachi would defeat 3T Kakashi. Seriously, what does 3T Kakashi have here that could enable him to handle Healthy Itachi?

Itachi has LoS Blockers, higher jutsu execution, superior feints, Shurikeninjutsu that can easily get within Kakashi's blind-spot, and a superior ocular ability that enables him to read his opponent's intentions which is emphasized by the fact that he can plan certain events in advance such as Sasuke's fight and still have it go his way despite holding back. Kakashi's great, but I still see him as being inferior to Healthy Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Lacked killed intent, and yet tried to kill him multiple times. And left him in a comatose state, which can be said even worse than killing him.
> 
> The second part doesn't make any sense to me, honestly. Itachi could do that to a youngster who managed to put his hands on a lot of power. Doing the same to a very skilled and experienced fighter? Not a chance. It's a completely different situation.



 Skill and experience won't help in recognizing bunshin feints. All it will help you do is react efficiently when you realize that you're caught in a bunshin feint, but it won't aid in perceiving a feint in the first place. SM Kabuto has superior perception yet couldn't perceive his feints, so Kakashi will not do the same.


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## Mercurial (May 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Skill and experience won't help in recognizing bunshin feints. All it will help you do is react efficiently when you realize that you're caught in a bunshin feint, but it won't aid in perceiving a feint in the first place. SM Kabuto has superior perception yet couldn't perceive his feints, so Kakashi will not do the same.



Part 1 Kakashi with speed and reflexes well below Part 2 Kakashi who is well below War Arc Kakashi could perfectly react to Itachi's feints and techniques and counter them with his own. Sick Itachi gets clowned by War Arc 3TS Kakashi, honestly.

Healthy Itachi or not, Kakashi by the time of War Arc is faster and has better reflexes, better taijutsu, enormously better ninjutsu and a shitload of more chakra. Kakashi feinted Pain. The only thing Itachi does better is genjutsu, and himself addressed how only with Mangekyo he could defeat Kakashi. And that was when Kakashi didn't have Mangekyo.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Part 1 Kakashi with speed and reflexes well below Part 2 Kakashi who is well below War Arc Kakashi could perfectly react to Itachi's feints and techniques and counter them with his own. Sick Itachi gets clowned by War Arc 3TS Kakashi, honestly.



I agree, 3T War Arc Kakashi is above 3T Sick Itachi.



> Healthy Itachi or not, Kakashi by the time of War Arc is faster and has better reflexes, better taijutsu, enormously better ninjutsu and a shitload of more chakra. Kakashi feinted Pain. The only thing Itachi does better is genjutsu, and himself addressed how only with Mangekyo he could defeat Kakashi. And that was when Kakashi didn't have Mangekyo.



Kakashi feinted Pain which was a good strategy, but he's never done anything remotely close to what Itachi had done. He merely used a bunshin at the right opportunity whereas Itachi used a bunshin feint in the midst of combat against Hebi Sasuke and had also done so twice against SM Kabuto using the exact same trick, so his bunshin feints are superior to Kakashi's.

Enormously better ninjutsu is an assumption. Itachi has used Massive Katon, has superior jutsu execution, and the Uchiha's powerful chakra along with the fact that his Suiton affected a Sage User, so there's no doubt that Itachi could compete with Kakashi in terms of ninjutsu.


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## Ryuzaki (May 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> This is not true. Itachi was suffering from the side-effects the entire time as he had to take medicine in order to keep himself alive long enough to fight Sasuke. He was literally on his death-bed, so the illness impacted his abilities the entire time.
> 
> Since this is P1 Itachi up against War Arc Kakashi, then yes, Kakashi wins, but Healthy Itachi is an entirely different story as he's much faster and stronger than Sick Itachi which was stated and shown in the manga. Personally, the way Itachi reacted to and managed to act one-step ahead of a superior combatant is enough to show me that Healthy Itachi would defeat 3T Kakashi. Seriously, what does 3T Kakashi have here that could enable him to handle Healthy Itachi?
> 
> Itachi has LoS Blockers, higher jutsu execution, superior feints, Shurikeninjutsu that can easily get within Kakashi's blind-spot, and a superior ocular ability that enables him to read his opponent's intentions which is emphasized by the fact that he can plan certain events in advance such as Sasuke's fight and still have it go his way despite holding back. Kakashi's great, but I still see him as being inferior to Healthy Itachi.


Are you high?

Itachi was perfectly fine until he overexerted himself, the technique took 30% of their stamina, that was nowhere near exhaustion. Back prior to the time-skip, Part 1 Kakashi was much slower than Itachi and had no problems keeping up with Itachi's attacks. War Arc Kakashi mitigates all of that bullshit you are talking about Itachi moving faster or slower.

The stuff in bold is grapsing at straws anything Itachi has, Kakashi can use to, it's basic ninja equipment. If the fight comes to ninjutsu, Kakashi will always win because he's got stronger and multiple ranged jutsu. Itachi cannot compete with that, I'd still like to see a solid defense technique Itachi can use that would stop Raikiri Dog. Without MS, he's so touchable it's not even a joke, anyone with semi-decent genjutsu defense would be able to bang with him.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Are you high?
> 
> Itachi was perfectly fine until he overexerted himself, the technique took 30% of their stamina, that was nowhere near exhaustion. Back prior to the time-skip, Part 1 Kakashi was much slower than Itachi and had no problems keeping up with Itachi's attacks. War Arc Kakashi mitigates all of that bullshit you are talking about Itachi moving faster or slower.



Yeah, that's not true:

Bijūdama

I seriously find it strange how people would acknowledge the fact that Kimimaro was ill against Lee and Gaara yet Itachi wasn't against Kakashi? Where's the logic in this?

Itachi literally knew that the disease was so severe that his time was short and he had to pump himself with all kinds of medicine just to keep himself alive long enough to fight Sasuke. The disease affected him the entire time. This is an indisputable manga fact, not to mention that Black Zetsu stated the possibility of Itachi being wounded before the fight even occurred:

Bijūdama



			
				Black Zetsu said:
			
		

> Maybe he'd already been badly wounded before Sasuke even arrived?



 Mangekyo had nothing to do with it. Itachi was ill the entire time and nothing you say will change that. 



> The stuff in bold is grapsing at straws anything Itachi has, Kakashi can use to, it's basic ninja equipment. If the fight comes to ninjutsu, Kakashi will always win because he's got stronger and multiple ranged jutsu. Itachi cannot compete with that, I'd still like to see a solid defense technique Itachi can use that would stop Raikiri Dog. Without MS, he's so touchable it's not even a joke, anyone with semi-decent genjutsu defense would be able to bang with him.



Has Kakashi shown LoS blockers in the midst of combat? Nope.
Has Kakashi feinted a Sage User and Sharingan user in the midst of combat as opposed to using a bunshin feint against someone who lacks enhanced perception in a well-suited situation? Nope.
Does Kakashi possess that ocular prowess that Itachi has that can read his opponent's intentions? Nope.
Does Kakashi display Shurikeninjutsu on the level as Itachi? Not even close.

The third one is most significant. Itachi not only has higher hand seal speed, but superior perception because of that ocular prowess, so he can easily anticipate Kakashi's seals, out-speed his hand seal speed, and execute a jutsu far quicker than Kakashi can even react considering SM Kabuto couldn't react to it. Kakashi has higher versatility, but Itachi easily edges out when you consider that Itachi can copy and counter all of his techniques in the nick of time.


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## Ryuzaki (May 1, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yeah, that's not true:
> 
> Bijūdama
> 
> I seriously find it strange how people would acknowledge the fact that Kimimaro was ill against Lee and Gaara yet Itachi wasn't against Kakashi? Where's the logic in this?


Kimimaro was already dying and didn't have much time left, Itachi could have lived longer if he didn't overexert himself and push himself to death by using the MS. The side-effects from MS were bad enough for a person who was healthy, (see Sasuke). Someone that has a comorbid illness would be that much more effected, plus Itachi's speed was effected after Sasuke broke his Tsukuyomi, the side-effects from the usage of that technique is what basically bodied him.



UchihaX28 said:


> Itachi literally knew that the disease was so severe that his time was short and he had to pump himself with all kinds of medicine just to keep himself alive long enough to fight Sasuke. The disease affected him the entire time. This is an indisputable manga fact, not to mention that Black Zetsu stated the possibility of Itachi being wounded before the fight even occurred:
> Bijūdama
> Mangekyo had nothing to do with it. Itachi was ill the entire time and nothing you say will change that.


Mangekyou had everything to do with it, because prior to using it he was fine. It's not like he was going to keel over and die just standing there at that time.



UchihaX28 said:


> Has Kakashi shown LoS blockers in the midst of combat? Nope.


Doton: Doryuheki



UchihaX28 said:


> Has Kakashi feinted a Sage User and Sharingan user in the midst of combat as opposed to using a bunshin feint against someone who lacks enhanced perception in a well-suited situation? Nope.


That's a really specific encounter, there aren't enough senjutsu users to feint, he shouldn't have a problem given his track record.



UchihaX28 said:


> Does Kakashi possess that ocular prowess that *Itachi has that can read his opponent's intentions?* Nope.


See Zabuza vs. Kakashi.


UchihaX28 said:


> Does Kakashi display Shurikeninjutsu on the level as Itachi? Not even close.


He does it on a higher level than Itachi, since his lightning-based kunai would tear through Itachi. Itachi has no defense.



UchihaX28 said:


> The third one is most significant. Itachi not only has higher hand seal speed, but superior perception because of that ocular prowess, so he can easily anticipate Kakashi's seals, out-speed his hand seal speed, and execute a jutsu far quicker than Kakashi can even react considering SM Kabuto couldn't react to it. Kakashi has higher versatility, but Itachi easily edges out when you consider that Itachi can copy and counter all of his techniques in the nick of time.


You mean the one that Kakashi did in the first arc of the manga? Oh okay, cool.

Also, you haven't provided proof that Itachi can defend against Raikiri Dog? 

Still waiting on that.


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## UchihaX28 (May 1, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kimimaro was already dying and didn't have much time left, Itachi could have lived longer if he didn't overexert himself and push himself to death by using the MS. The side-effects from MS were bad enough for a person who was healthy, (see Sasuke). Someone that has a comorbid illness would be that much more effected, plus Itachi's speed was effected after Sasuke broke his Tsukuyomi, the side-effects from the usage of that technique is what basically bodied him.



Itachi didn't have much time either. Did you not read the scan I just posted?

The side-effects of the Mangekyo does take its toll on its user, but all that doesn't tell me that Itachi was simply not affected by his illness.

Itachi's speed wasn't just affected from the illness after he used Tsukyomi. Black Zetsu makes it quite clear that despite that, Itachi should've easily evaded Sasuke's attacks and that was enough for Zetsu to understand that Itachi was most likely wounded prior to Sasuke's arrival.



> Mangekyou had everything to do with it, because prior to using it he was fine. It's not like he was going to keel over and die just standing there at that time.



It didn't unless you can prove that the reason Itachi had to pump himself with all kinds of medicines was because he was overusing his MS.



> Doton: Doryuheki
> 
> That's a really specific encounter, there aren't enough senjutsu users to feint, * he shouldn't have a problem given his track record. *



What's this based on?

Kakashi uses it as a form of defense rather than blocking the opponent's LoS, so this will not be a strategy Kakashi will employ and unfortunately for Kakashi, it works both ways whereas the same doesn't apply to Itachi's crows. That's not even considering the fact that Itachi's crows are much faster to execute than Kakashi's Doton Wall or the fact that crows can be used as a distraction.



> See Zabuza vs. Kakashi.
> He does it on a higher level than Itachi, since his lightning-based kunai would tear through Itachi. Itachi has no defense.



And Kabuto stated that Itachi's ocular prowess separated himself from other Uchihas meaning its a trait that only Itachi possessed. All Kakashi displayed was genjutsu and Precognition, all of which Itachi has done on a higher level.



> You mean the one that Kakashi did in the first arc of the manga? Oh okay, cool.
> 
> Also, you haven't provided proof that Itachi can defend against Raikiri Dog?
> 
> Still waiting on that.



What Kakashi did was input commands for what he wanted Zabuza do through his genjutsu. That's different than reacting to one's movements through your own reflexes, so that point is moot. Kakashi has never displayed the ability of perceiving one's seals and use that to execute a jutsu faster than them. That's only a feat Itachi has done and unfortunately for Kakashi, he needs Genjutsu which he cannot use here.

Itachi could react to Bee's unorthodox Kenjutsu, so what stops him from countering Kakashi's Raiton Wolf exactly?


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## sanninme rikudo (May 1, 2016)

People actually believing Itachi didn't suffer from his illness…
The fuck type of trash is that?

Anyway, Itachi feinted Sasuke in combat and double feinted Kabuto who had the advantage of being in his own setting. 
Kakashi feinted a shouten clone of Itachi which only a moron with no regard to decency, or common sense for that matter, would attempt to argue.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (May 2, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I agree, 3T War Arc Kakashi is above 3T Sick Itachi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As good as they are, Itachi's feints didn't work against Part 1 Kakashi. This says everything since War Arc Kakashi > Part 2 Kakashi >> Part 1 Kakashi.

Kakashi feinted Naruto and Sakura, easily, during combat, with no block of LoS, and got hyped for his hand seal execution speed. The same Sakura who could read Sasori's attack patterns with puppetry, couldn't read Kakashi's hand seals.

Kakashi has a far superior ninjutsu who lets him count on a far more powerful CQC enhanced output (Raikiri, Raikiri wielded in both hands, Raiden, Rasengan, Raikiri infused weapons, all attacks that Itachi can't block, only evade, and that's where Kakashi also showed better speed, better reactions, better taijutsu, better physical strength and endurance) and trickery and mid range options (Kage Bunshin/Tajuu Kage Bunshin, Raiton Kage Bunshin, Raikiri extended and controlled like a mid range technique in Raijuu Tsuiga, Doton underground fast moving and hiding, Suiton + Raiton combo with Suijinheki/Suiryodan/Suikodan/Daibafuku followed by Raijuu Tsuiga or Raikiri flow) with also favourable elements and more mastery of said elements (Raiton, Suiton, Doton vs Katon and Suiton) and far more chakra to spend. Not to mention Kakashi actually having 1000 different techniques at his disposal.

Itachi's basic Katon: Gokakyu gets canonically easily dodged with raw speed or Doton underground moving/hiding (and only helps Kakashi in tricking Itachi with a Kage Bunshin/Raiton Kage Bunshin feint), stomped by Kakashi's defensive and offensive Suiton, parried with Doton: Doryuheki, swatted away with Rasengan like Part 1 Sasuke's Katon was stomped away by Part 1 Naruto's Rasengan. Itachi's Hosenka Tsumabeni gets dodged, cut through with Raikiri enhanced weapons, parried with Doryuheki or Suijinheki. Itachi's Suigadan gets canonically parried with Suijinheki, also could be parried with Doryuheki, and War Arc Kakashi who is much faster than Part 1 Kakashi should actually be able to dodge that even with raw speed if his Start of Part 2 self could dodge a forest-destroying attack (Kakuzu's Fuuton: Atsugai) at point blank and with his attention divided by the taijutsu fight against Hidan (where, even with an injured arm, he was taking care of him with ease using just a mere kunai against his scythe), keeping up with Kakuzu's masks and taking an eye on team 10 *(1)(2)(3)* ... and right after that quickly jump to intercept Kakuzu's fast Raiton ninjutsu with Raikiri, saving team 10's asses *(4)*. Then Itachi's Suiryodan gets overwhelmed with the more powerful Daibafuku, and Kakashi adds Raiton to fry Itachi or force him in mid air.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (May 3, 2016)

But Kakashi hasn't shown the ability to use daibafuku without a source though 

but yes the more one thinks of it the more it sounds likely Kakashi wins 

He simply has a much much better skill set in a 3TS battle


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