# Florida's new ban on transgender students in sports would allow schools to subject minors to genital inspections



## Kue (Apr 18, 2021)

Florida’s new ban on transgender students in sports would allow schools to subject minors to genital inspections
					

The legislation has passed the state’s House of Representatives.




					thehill.com
				






> Under a new ban on transgender students in sports passed by Florida’s House of Representatives, schools would have the power to subject students to “physical examination” if their gender is disputed.
> 
> The "" bans transgender female athletes from competing on women’s athletic teams in both high school and college sports, although transgender male athletes may still compete on either team. In cases where a student’s “biological sex” is disputed, the law authorizes schools to require health examinations or documentation from the student's personal health care provider.
> 
> ...


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 18, 2021)

The party of family values wanting to look at kid's genitals? Yeah that makes sense. 

Are we sure the ones pushing this bill don't just get off at the prospect of being able to look in the pants of teenagers? Seems very suspicious.

Reactions: Agree 7 | Funny 1


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## pfft (Apr 18, 2021)

Sexual assault on children... is legal now

Reactions: Agree 8


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## Kue (Apr 18, 2021)

A lot of anti-trans arguments revolves around protecting children, and imagine perpetuating those arguments while legalizing sexual abuse of children.

Someone should get on creating a Daily Struggle meme about this law.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Eros (Apr 18, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> The party of family values wanting to look at kid's genitals? Yeah that makes sense.
> 
> Are we sure the ones pushing this bill don't just get off at the prospect of being able to look in the pants of teenagers? Seems very suspicious.


This does seem rather revolting.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GRIMMM (Apr 18, 2021)

Penis inspection day is real y'all.

Reactions: Funny 7


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## Eros (Apr 18, 2021)

GRIMMM said:


> Penis inspection day is real y'all.


Don't forget about vagina inspection day.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2021)

I don't like the idea of trangender women playing on teams with those who are biologically women either.

But if I had to choose between that or the creepy coach staring at my daughter's vagina..I think I would deal with the former.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Kue (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't like the idea of trangender women playing on teams with those who are biologically women either.
> 
> But if I had to choose between that or the creepy coach staring at my daughter's vagina..I think I would deal with the former.



Hmm, you haven't made a distinction, you don't support any trans women competing in sports?

Would you let transwomen who have not gone through male puberty at all compete?

In a school environment, would you let transgirls who are on puberty blockers compete?

Would you support adult transwomen compete who have been on hormones for 2 years? More than 2?

Is this something you looked into, or is this a reflexive position of yours?


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2021)

Kue said:


> Hmm, you haven't made a distinction, you don't support any trans women competing in sports?


I would rather trans women play with other trans woman. Or with men. For me it's a matter of competitive advantage.


Kue said:


> Would you let transwomen who have not gone through male puberty at all compete?


Sure


Kue said:


> In a school environment, would you let transgirls who are on puberty blockers compete?


I don't have enough info on puberty blockers to make that decision.  Would it stop a child from ever growing the typical height, weight, structure of a man?


Kue said:


> Would you support adult transwomen compete who on hormones for 2 years? More than 2?


Same answer as the last question.


Kue said:


> Is this something you looked into, or is this a reflexive position of yours?


Well I never had much reason to look into it. I don't even have children. As long as there's no competitive advantage.  I see no issue.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Kue (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I would rather trans women play with other trans woman. Or with men. For me it's a matter of competitive advantage.



This is not necessary.



> I don't have enough info on puberty blockers to make that decision.  Would it stop a child from ever growing the typical height, weight, structure of a man?



Yes. The physical differences relevant to sports between AMABs and AFABs don't kick in until puberty.



> Same answer as the last question.
> 
> Well I never had much reason to look into it. I don't even have children. As long as there's no competitive advantage.  I see no issue.



"No competitive advantage" is weird phrasing and wouldn't be used by experts looking into this. There are cis women with genetic advantages that greatly boosts their chance of winning, yet no one is advocating that they create their own league or do not compete at all. 

Height in basketball is a classic example, we don't advocate for people of a certain height to be banned from basketball, but every inch in height helps a lot.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2021)

Kue said:


> "No competitive advantage" is weird phrasing and wouldn't be used by experts looking into this. There are cis women with genetic advantages that greatly boosts their chance of winning, yet no one is advocating that they create their own league or do not compete at all


I'm 6 ft 2 inches around 240 pounds. There's a lot more men who share my physical attributes than women. That is what I mean by physical advantage. 

Serena Williams seems physically dominating when playing on the court but experts tend to say that she would be at a disadvantage competing against men.



Kue said:


> Yes. The physical differences relevant to sports between AMABs and AFABs don't kick in until puberty.


So the people on these blockers never go through puberty for the rest of their lives? No hair. No voice change. No breast?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I would rather trans women play with other trans woman. Or with men. For me it's a matter of competitive advantage.


The problem with this is that most trans women can't compete on the level of a man because they are on hormone replacement therapy and testosterone levels are usually pretty low so basically it's near the same as having men compete with women. If a transwoman wasn't an athlete previous to transition then their performance is very comparable to a biological woman.


~Gesy~ said:


> I don't have enough info on puberty blockers to make that decision. Would it stop a child from ever growing the typical height, weight, structure of a man?


Yes and no. Things like height usually isn't usually something that can be changed plus there are some really tall biological women as well. The fat distribution between men and women differ because of hormones so while fat will usually go to the stomach for a male as far as females go it is distributed to the chest and hips. As far as structure goes that is largely dependent on the person I've seen really burly women who are taller and have a bigger frame than I do.


~Gesy~ said:


> Same answer as the last question.


Ohs


~Gesy~ said:


> Well I never had much reason to look into it. I don't even have children. As long as


No competitive advantage is a really tricky subject because advantages are something that everyone possesses whether they are male or female or trans (men or women). Micheal Phelps for example is an absolute monster.



This is not including how his body produces a lot less lactic acid (he tires way slower) and he's double jointed which gives him greater flexibility when he paddles. All of that is genetic by the way I believe there is some special gene he possesses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> So the people on these blockers never go through puberty for the rest of their lives? No hair. No voice change. No breast?


Blockers are only used until they are the age of 16 afterwards they have the option to continue puberty as normal or start hormone replacement therapy to go through the puberty of the other sex so until then there is no real change other than getting taller I believe I need to read up on that

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2021)

Yeah this stuff is deep. And something tells me the people of florida don't care to spend time to learn it.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> Yeah this stuff is deep. And something tells me the people of florida don't care to spend time to learn it.


The sad thing is lives will be lost because of it. Gender affirming care saves lives by lowering suicide rates by a lot.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Yuji (Apr 18, 2021)

Doubt this is how it will be used in practice, but it's only a good thing that transgender athletes are not allowed to compete especially in female sports. Biological advantage is too great.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Kue (Apr 18, 2021)

Yuji said:


> Doubt this is how it will be used in practice, but it's only a good thing that transgender athletes are not allowed to compete especially in female sports. Biological advantage is too great.



You've had the opportunity to read posts from people who are more informed about this than you are and you just decide to say "bIoLoGiCaL aDvAnTaGe Is ToO gReAt"?

Okay, go ahead and keep defending child abuse.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 18, 2021)




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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't like the idea of trangender women playing on teams with those who are biologically women either.
> 
> But if I had to choose between that or the creepy coach staring at my daughter's vagina..I think I would deal with the former.


*Daughters penis

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2021)

Capt. Autismo said:


> *Daughters penis


No i mean her vagina. Chances are pretty high that my possible daughter won't be trans.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 18, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> No i mean her vagina. Chances are pretty high that my possible daughter won't be trans.


Sucks for you then, imagine having a cis gendered child.


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 18, 2021)

Right? How boring lol


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## Masterblack06 (Apr 18, 2021)

IIRC someone said that it would just require you to have a note from your doctor or something. Not to sure on that though

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Florida’s new ban on transgender students in sports would allow schools to subject minors to genital inspections
> 
> 
> The legislation has passed the state’s House of Representatives.
> ...


Genital inspections sound really inappropriate. I doubt that’s what’s actually happening though. Trans girls shouldn’t be competing against biological girls though. Thats not fair. Trans athletes should compete against boys.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

If you read into it you would know that the school would be legally allowed to do the genital inspection.

This is also nothing new, gay conversion camps has been a havens for sexual abuse and history is going to repeat itself here. This is going to be used to sexually abuse cisgendered and trans girls.

For those who actually care about getting informed, I would say this video is a good starting point.

In the description there's a Google Doc where all the studies are cited if you want to do further reading. (People avoided responding to me and Sakura so I doubt people want to explore this topic)

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> If you read into it you would know that the school would be legally allowed to do the genital inspection.
> 
> This is also nothing new, gay conversion camps has been a havens for sexual abuse and history is going to repeat itself here. This is going to be used to sexually abuse cisgendered and trans girls.
> 
> ...


He has the rainbow flag and trans flag out. I doubt that he’s impartial.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> He has the rainbow flag and trans flag out. I doubt that he’s impartial.



You have anecdotes and he has studies.

Keep making your political positions based on feels though.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> You have anecdotes and he has studies.
> 
> Keep making your political positions based on feels though.


Nope, I just understand basic biology. When I started high school, there’s a reason they put the girls in separate gym classes. There’s a reason that girls have seperate sports teams. Men are generally bigger, stronger and faster than women. It’s basic biology. I’m sorry if that hurts people’s feelings. Trans athletes shouldn’t be allowed to compete with women. If they want to play sports, they should compete against men.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2 | Disagree 3


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> The problem with this is that most trans women can't compete on the level of a man because they are on hormone replacement therapy and testosterone levels are usually pretty low so basically it's near the same as having men compete with women. If a transwoman wasn't an athlete previous to transition then their performance is very comparable to a biological woman.
> 
> Yes and no. Things like height usually isn't usually something that can be changed plus there are some really tall biological women as well. The fat distribution between men and women differ because of hormones so while fat will usually go to the stomach for a male as far as females go it is distributed to the chest and hips. As far as structure goes that is largely dependent on the person I've seen really burly women who are taller and have a bigger frame than I do.
> 
> ...


Why are you talking about non athletic transwomen when we are discussing athletic transwomen? A lot of these transwomen are breaking women records and outperforming to a high degree.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Nope, I just understand basic biology. When I started high school, there’s a reason they put the girls in separate gym classes. There’s a reason that girls have seperate sports teams. Men are generally bigger, stronger and faster than women. It’s basic biology.


People are choosing to ignore basic biology.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Nope, I just understand basic biology. When I started high school, there’s a reason they put the girls in separate gym classes. There’s a reason that girls have seperate sports teams. Men are generally bigger, stronger and faster than women. It’s basic biology. I’m sorry if that hurts people’s feelings. Trans athletes shouldn’t be allowed to compete with women. If they want to play sports, they should compete against men.



Do you really? What is the process that makes afabs and amabs different?


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> People are choosing to ignore basic biology.


It’s utterly bizarre. I remember when I used to be a liberal, laughing about right-wing science deniers speaking out against evolution. These leftists are no better and arguably worse.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Imagine thinking you know basic biology when you disagree with scientific consensus.  

Y'all are the ones that are anti-science.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Do you really? What is the process that makes afabs and amabs different?


Please stop reinforcing the gender binary.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Imagine thinking you know basic biology when you disagree with scientific consensus.
> 
> Y'all are the ones that are anti-science.


Scientific consensus? Do you really believe that men and women are physically equal? Take the average man and the average woman. Do you really think the woman would stand a chance against that man in a fight?


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Please stop reinforcing the gender binary.



I'm using terms more specific to our discussion, sorry if it's too complicated for you.



Lee-Sensei said:


> Scientific consensus?



Yes, the scientific consensus is on my side. Trans people have been researched for decades, it's just now that conservatives need to find a new group to persecute and are getting triggered that the scientific community already has settled on this and moved on.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> I'm using terms more specific to our discussion, sorry if it's too complicated for you.
> 
> Yes, the scientific consensus is on my side. Trans people have been researched for decades, it's just now that conservatives need to find a new group to persecute and are getting triggered that the scientific community already has settled on this and moved on.


you didn’t answer my question. Would the average woman stand a chance against the average man in a fight? Do you think they’re physically equals?


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> you didn’t answer my question. Would the average woman stand a chance against the average man in a fight? Do you think they’re physically equals?



You didn't answer mine either.

The average woman would be a cis woman, and the average man would be a cis man? No, I don't think a cis woman would beat a cis man in a fight.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

By the way, June Eastwood (the runner you posted the video of) got 7th place on the NCAA Division 1 Debut. Wow, such advantage.


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 19, 2021)

Gestapo


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> By the way, June Eastwood (the runner you posted the video of) got 7th place on the NCAA Division 1 Debut. Wow, such advantage.


Okay.









						Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds
					

Trans women retained a 12% advantage and their testosterone levels remained higher even after two years of taking suppressing hormones




					www.theguardian.com


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A study does not make a consensus.

This only would apply for trans women who had a male puberty, would you let trans women who never had a male puberty compete in women's sports?

A 12% difference is still pretty negligible though. Inches in height for sports like basketball, or certain genetic make-ups like being double jointed in swimming would net a higher advantage, but we are not going out to ban these people from sports.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> A study does not make a consensus.
> 
> This only would apply for trans women who had a male puberty, would you let trans women who never had a male puberty compete in women's sports?
> 
> A 12% difference is still pretty negligible though. Inches in height for sports like basketball, or certain genetic make-ups like being double jointed in swimming would net a higher advantage, but we are not going out to ban these people from sports.


I don’t think doctors should be experimenting on children. If people want to get SCO’s to treat their gender dysphoria, they should be allowed to do that once they’re adults. Kids aren’t old enough to make those choices though.

It’s not one study either. It’s many studies. It’s also common sense. You yourself admitted that men are physically more capable than women generally.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I don’t think doctors should be experimenting on children. If people want to get SCO’s to treat their gender dysphoria, they should be allowed to do that once they’re adults. Kids aren’t old enough to make those choices though.
> 
> It’s not one study either. It’s many studies. It’s also common sense. You yourself admitted that men are physically more capable than women generally.



You're appealing to common sense which tells me you just are instinctively against it. You decided on a gut reaction (aka common sense) that trans women should not be in sports, and you are trying to find the arguments to justify that conclusion rather than the other way around. Inform yourself first then take a position. Even the video you posted would get an emotional reaction and would make people decide on "common sense" to ban trans women from sports.

If you did look at "many studies," you would be on my side. You do know that the Olympics already consulted experts and allowed trans people to compete since 2004? Do you know more than the entire institution of the Olympics or pretty much all of medical institutions?

When you say that doctors "experiment" on children, what do you mean?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> You're appealing to common sense which tells me you just are instinctively against it. You decided on a gut reaction (aka common sense) that trans women should not be in sports, and you are trying to find the arguments to justify that conclusion rather than the other way around. Inform yourself first then take a position. Even the video you posted would get an emotional reaction and would make people decide on "common sense" to ban trans women from sports.
> 
> If you did look at "many studies," you would be on my side. You do know that the Olympics already consulted experts and allowed trans people to compete since 2004? Do you know more than the entire institution of the Olympics or pretty much all of medical institutions?
> 
> When you say that doctors "experiment" on children, what do you mean?


I’m appealing to common sense, because for most people this is common sense. This is never going to be widely accepted, because most people understand the biological realities involved here.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I’m appealing to common sense, because for most people this is common sense. This is never going to be widely accepted, because most people understand the biological realities involved here.



So you're just going to resort to repeating the same arguments you did earlier.

I'll take my W here then. Who's next?


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> So you're just going to resort to repeating the same arguments you did earlier.
> 
> I'll take my W here then. Who's next?


No one reading this outside of the gender ideologues thinks you’re right here. Do you acknowledge that men are taller than women? Do you acknowledge that they are stronger than women? Do you acknowledge that they’re heavier than women? Do you acknowledge that they’re faster than women? Do you acknowledge that they have higher bone density than women?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> No one reading this outside of the gender ideologues thinks you’re right here. Do you acknowledge that men are taller than women? Do you acknowledge that they are stronger than women? Do you acknowledge that they’re heavier than women? Do you acknowledge that they’re faster than women? Do you acknowledge that they have higher bone density than women?



So you think that the medical field are pushing a gender ideology? Is it the jews that are controlling the universities and experts? The gays? Reptiles? 

I already said that you are right about cisgender women and cisgender men.

You still haven't answered my question. What is the process that makes cis men and cis women different?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> So you think that the medical field are pushing a gender ideology? Is it the jews that are controlling the universities and experts? The gays? Reptiles?
> 
> I already said that you are right about cisgender women and cisgender men.
> 
> You still haven't answered my question. What is the process that makes cis men and cis women different?


Testosterone? If you acknowledge that women aren’t physically equal to men, why do you think that wouldn’t carry over with transgender people?


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Testosterone? If you acknowledge that women aren’t physically equal to men, why do you think that wouldn’t carry over with transgender people?



You do know that trans women who compete in sports need to take estrogen right?

I also like that you completely avoided my question about trans women that have not gone through a male puberty by arguing that you don't support doctors "experimenting" on children. Trans women who never went through a male puberty would not carry over any of the advantages you are paranoid about, but you don't want to explore the nuances of this topic. Just be honest with yourself, say you just don't like trans people or you are misinformed, then you can move on.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> You do know that trans women who compete in sports need to take estrogen right?
> 
> I also like that you completely avoided my question about trans women that have not gone through a male puberty by arguing that you don't support doctors "experimenting" on children. Trans women who never went through a male puberty would not carry over any of the advantages you are paranoid about, but you don't want to explore the nuances of this topic. Just be honest with yourself, say you just don't like trans people or you are misinformed, then you can move on.


Yes. And that doesn’t erase the physical advantages that come through growing up as a male.

Would that be acheived by things like hormone therapy?


Watch from 6:24 in.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> A study does not make a consensus.
> 
> This only would apply for trans women who had a male puberty, would you let trans women who never had a male puberty compete in women's sports?
> 
> A 12% difference is still pretty negligible though. Inches in height for sports like basketball, or certain genetic make-ups like being double jointed in swimming would net a higher advantage, but we are not going out to ban these people from sports.


Why are we arguing this when most do not transition before puberty?
Also if there are no biological advantages or everyone has some sort of advantage why have separate competitions for men and women?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> You do know that trans women who compete in sports need to take estrogen right?
> 
> I also like that you completely avoided my question about trans women that have not gone through a male puberty by arguing that you don't support doctors "experimenting" on children. *Trans women who never went through a male puberty would not carry over any of the advantages you are paranoid about, but you don't want to explore the nuances of this topic*. Just be honest with yourself, say you just don't like trans people or you are misinformed, then you can move on.


What studies prove this? Given the recent acceptance what long term study has been done to back such an ssertion?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Yes. And that doesn’t erase the physical advantages that come through growing up as a male.
> 
> Would that be acheived by things like hormone therapy?



The physical advantages do not carry over if you do not have a male puberty. Seems someone was not paying attention in sex-ed, or maybe based on the videos you are posting you are probably living somewhere that does not have it.

I've had this argument before with a friend who's a huge Joe Rogan fan and he had to admit that trans women that never had a male puberty should be allowed to compete.

The debate around people who actually know more about this subject is about trans women who have gone through HRT after going through male puberty.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Why are we arguing this when most do not transition before puberty?
> Also if there are no biological advantages or everyone has some sort of advantage why have separate competitions for men and women?



Because it's important. People who actually care about the facts will concede that trans women who have never gone through male puberty should compete. It's a great way to tell apart the people who are just icky about trans people, and people who are concerned about women's sports... even though they only cared about women's sports when this topic came up.

Then again, refer to the earlier posts, there's no such thing as "no biological advantages." The only way to have a competition where no one has a biological advantage is by cloning the same person and having those clones compete.

Yes I still support seperate sports categories for men and women, and I want trans women to compete in women's sports and I want trans men to compete in men's sports.



Medjaynegus said:


> What studies prove this? Given the recent acceptance what long term study has been done to back such an ssertion?



This has been the medical consensus for years, I can pull a Banhammer and spam this thread with hundreds of studies, but the video I posted earlier has a google doc that has tens of studies already cited.

If you were arguing in good faith you would already know this, doctors and experts have already analyzed hundreds of studies and made a consensus, to the point that the Olympics and other sport institutions already allowed trans women to compete long before conservatives started virtue signaling about women's sports.


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Because it's important. People who actually care about the facts will concede that trans women who have never gone through male puberty should compete. It's a great way to tell apart the people who are just icky about trans people, and people who are concerned about women's sports... even though they only cared about women's sports when this topic came up.
> 
> Then again, refer to the earlier posts, there's no such thing as "no biological advantages." The only way to have a competition where no one has a biological advantage is by cloning the same person and having those clones compete.
> 
> ...


Why do you still support separate categories than if you admit biological advantages exist? Again what is the percentage of men who are playing that transitioned before puberty vs puberty? Also it is funny that many women do not feel comfortable playing with transmen but are forced to anyway.

Thank you, I will take a look at the video.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Why do you still support separate categories than if you admit biological advantages exist? Again what is the percentage of men who are playing that transitioned before puberty vs puberty? Also it is funny that man women do not feel comfortable playing with transmen but are forced to anyway.
> 
> Thank you, I will take a look at the video.



The whole "biological advantage" angle is why I have to keep pointing out that people are just misinformed about this.. people with very little knowledge in sports are trying to police trans people (and to be fair, I am not fully knowledgeable, but I have been quoting people who know more than me, the burden is on you to prove the whole medical field wrong). Even with leaving trans people out of it, there is no such thing as "no biological advantage" in sports. People don't get banned for having a certain height, having relatively shorter legs, or being double jointed. The discussion is not around creating a game with players with "no biological advantages" but rather the discussion is around if trans women have enough advantages to disqualify them and the answer is no. Your second question is not important, even if it's 0.01%, if the trans women that have _not _gone through male puberty have inconclusively have no advantage over cis women, they should be allowed to participate.

We haven't even talked about the nuances in different sports, in MMA or Football or anything that involves contact sports we would need to make sure that the trans women have been going through HRT long enough, but soccer for example it really does not make any kind of difference if the player is trans or not.

Yes, with the logic @Lee-Sensei is using transmen should compete with cis women, but they would actually have an advantage with testosterone. What makes men gain an advantage in sports is not being born with a penis, but going through puberty that pumps them with testosterone. Trans women lose these advantages by going through HRT, and I can use the study @Lee-Sensei cited to show that 2 years is enough for 88% of trans women to compete in sports. That's a great stat, and it is the same standard the Olympics uses.


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## Jim (Apr 19, 2021)

I wonder how many posters realized that non trans will also get genital inspections

Reactions: Agree 2 | Informative 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> The physical advantages do not carry over if you do not have a male puberty. Seems someone was not paying attention in sex-ed, or maybe based on the videos you are posting you are probably living somewhere that does not have it.
> 
> I've had this argument before with a friend who's a huge Joe Rogan fan and he had to admit that trans women that never had a male puberty should be allowed to compete.
> 
> The debate around people who actually know more about this subject is about trans women who have gone through HRT after going through male puberty.


You’re dodging. How would that be achieved? Also, did you watch the part of the video Inshowed you? Do you feel zero empathy for that kid?


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## Keishin (Apr 19, 2021)

Biological advantage in sports.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> The whole "biological advantage" angle is why I have to keep pointing out that people are just misinformed about this.. people with very little knowledge in sports are trying to police trans people (and to be fair, I am not fully knowledgeable, but I have been quoting people who know more than me, the burden is on you to prove the whole medical field wrong). Even with leaving trans people out of it, there is no such thing as "no biological advantage" in sports. People don't get banned for having a certain height, having relatively shorter legs, or being double jointed. The discussion is not around creating a game with players with "no biological advantages" but rather the discussion is around if trans women have enough advantages to disqualify them and the answer is no. Your second question is not important, even if it's 0.01%, if the trans women that have _not _gone through male puberty have inconclusively have no advantage over cis women, they should be allowed to participate.
> 
> We haven't even talked about the nuances in different sports, in MMA or Football or anything that involves contact sports we would need to make sure that the trans women have been going through HRT long enough, but soccer for example it really does not make any kind of difference if the player is trans or not.
> 
> Yes, with the logic @Lee-Sensei is using transmen should compete with cis women, but they would actually have an advantage with testosterone. What makes men gain an advantage in sports is not being born with a penis, but going through puberty that pumps them with testosterone. Trans women lose these advantages by going through HRT, and I can use the study @Lee-Sensei cited to show that 2 years is enough for 88% of trans women to compete in sports. That's a great stat, and it is the same standard the Olympics uses.


And what about kids that are wrongly diagnosed as having gender dysphoria? What about them?


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You’re dodging. How would that be achieved? Also, did you watch the part of the video Inshowed you? Do you feel zero empathy for that kid?



Do you have studies? I don't care about anecdotes.

What am I dodging? You're the one not answering any of my questions lol.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> And what about kids that are wrongly diagnosed as having gender dysphoria? What about them?



They are an anomaly. All surgeries, procedures, and psychological treatments have a small chance of failure.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Nope, I just understand basic biology. When I started high school, there’s a reason they put the girls in separate gym classes. There’s a reason that girls have seperate sports teams. Men are generally bigger, stronger and faster than women. It’s basic biology. I’m sorry if that hurts people’s feelings. Trans athletes shouldn’t be allowed to compete with women. If they want to play sports, they should compete against men.


Let's see 1s between the fastest man and fastest women.

I see no problem there.

Also it is not about testosterone in adults ... bone density and muscle mass is a factor also.
Either way fascinating subject, like evolution does not need 100M+ to mutate ... just estrogen and testosterone will morph from one set of chromosomes to another.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Also it is not about testosterone in adults ... bone density and muscle mass is a factor also.


These only become a factor if the trans woman went through a male puberty. It's a male puberty that grants men the bone density and the muscle mass in the first place.

The more interesting discussion is whether trans women that went through a male puberty should compete (even though the scientific consensus is fine with it as long as they have gone through HRT long enough), but anyone who knows even a little bit about this subject would concede that trans women that never went through a male puberty should compete.

That's why I became more dismissive of Lee, his arguments hold no water because he has zero understanding of what puberty is lol.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Do you have studies? I don't care about anecdotes.
> 
> What am I dodging? You're the one not answering any of my questions lol.


You don’t care about the suffering of that poor child? Ouch. You’re pretty cold-hearted, Kue.



Kue said:


> They are an anomaly. All surgeries, procedures, and psychological treatments have a small chance of failure.


Are they? We’ll have to wait and see. Ultimately, I think it’s morally reprehensible to try and subversive the natural biological processes too treat a mental disorder (I don’t mean that in a bad way). If that’s what they choose to do as adults, I wish them all the happiness in the world. But kids aren’t capable of making those choices.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Why are you talking about non athletic transwomen when we are discussing athletic transwomen? A lot of these transwomen are breaking women records and outperforming to a high degree.


Non athletic was the incorrect way of putting it. For example in sports where endurance is the deciding factor performance tends to be closer regardless of the gender gap. The gulf widens for sports where instant power is required. Chances are that if you bulk up and build muscle before transition you won't see much muscle mass loss. However those who don't build big muscles also suffer from the effects of estrogen and still lose mass. Contrary to popular beliefs a lot of transwomen don't break records our outperform biological women the issue is that when they do win it's broadcasted and when they lose no one cares just like they don't care about biological women winning. Plus trans people make up about or less than 0.001% of the population it's hardly an issue to worry about.


Medjaynegus said:


> Why are we arguing this when most do not transition before puberty?
> Also if there are no biological advantages or everyone has some sort of advantage why have separate competitions for men and women?


Yes that's true but look at all the roadblocks republicans are putting up that's why many can't transition that and family support emotion and/or financial. Everyone possesses some type of advantage or disadvantage however, one of the biggest factors are hormones both sexes can build muscle men just build more of it easier than women.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You don’t care about the suffering of that poor child? Ouch. You’re pretty cold-hearted, Kue.
> 
> 
> Are they? We’ll have to wait and see. Ultimately, I think it’s morally reprehensible to try and subversive the natural biological processes too treat a mental disorder (I don’t mean that in a bad way). If that’s what they choose to do as adults, I wish them all the happiness in the world. But kids aren’t capable of making those choices.



Well, if millions of doctors are doing morally reprehensible things you live in hell world. Go out there and fight the evil kabal of doctors trying to take over the world. You hold the secret weakness to all their studies, you are smarter than all those scientists combined.

Go forth and fight this evil gay agenda!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Magic (Apr 19, 2021)

Yes let's continue to persecute a very small and fragile group of people.


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> These only become a factor if the trans woman went through a male puberty. It's a male puberty that grants men the bone density and the muscle mass in the first place.


The we ask ourselves does a pre-puberty regardless of gender human have the mental capacity to decide what exactly should he do, change into  a new genre or not?

After all he can't drive, he can't drink alcohol he can't have a full job, he can't vote or start a family but he should decide that? He can't even commit a crime  per se ...

I one tend to think that because the brain of the human is not at a mental stage to do a lot of things, this should never be put as a question.



Lee-Sensei said:


> But kids aren’t capable of making those choices.


Excuse my bla bla but this this is the essence of that.

If you don't agree then why are the minors not charged with crimes?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Oh good, another thread where we're going to assume that 12-year-olds are getting complex medical decisions made without input from professionals or their parents.


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Oh good, another thread where we're going to assume that 12-year-olds are getting complex medical decisions made without input from professionals or their parents.


So you think someone else should decide for you what to do with your body at pre 12?

...

The only one that can decide for the body of anyone is you when you are an adult.
No parents or doctors should ever decide what A minor should do with their body when they are 12s.

The point is that the minor is malleable to influence from parents and doctors ...
And no sane clinical mental doctor would agree that a minor can take a decision that will influence himself this big for 60+ years.

Either way all this is irrelevant as the population of the western society is in decline and the other 7B people do not believe this.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So you think someone else should decide for you what to do with your body at pre 12?


I think that complex medical decisions should be made in consultation with the appropriate medical professionals.

I think that minors should make complex medical decisions in coordination with their parents or guardians.

Spicy-hot takes I know.  I'll give you a few minutes to react to them.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> I think that minors should make complex medical decisions in coordination with their parents or guardians.


But they can't drive, be charged for murder, drink alcohol, have a full time job, live alone, be fathers and mothers etc.



WorkingMoogle said:


> I'll give you a few minutes to react to them.


I don't need to, I give it 50 years and western ideologies will be overridden by someone that wants society to be coherent in logic.

The fall of Rome did not happen in 50 years but this will do so or it will self destroy like many other extinct civilizations before it.

Like it or not but evolution removed Dinosaurs and mamouts from the evolution scale, western concepts even easier.

Just a regional war and this goes away, back to the bottom of Maslow's pyramid.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> But they can't drive, be charged for murder, drink alcohol, have a full time job, live alone, be fathers and mothers etc.


Sure.  I'm not sure how you think this is a point though.

They (when working with their parents and medical professionals) can get gene-alternating therapy if they have the right medical conditions for that to be applicable.

They (when working with their parents and medical professionals) can get limbs amputated if they are in a situation that indicates it.

They (when working with their parents and medical professionals) can get prescriptions for anti-depressants or other psychotropic drugs that literally alter their brain's chemistry if they have the right diagnosis.

All of these procedures (and millions of others) that you wouldn't bat an eye at stem from children and their parents raising concerns to doctors and working to figure out the right course of treatment for them (which in many cases is "none").


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> They (when working with their parents and medical professionals) can get gene-alternating therapy if they have the right medical conditions for that to be applicable.
> 
> They (when working with their parents and medical professionals) can get limbs amputated if they are in a situation that indicates it.
> 
> They (when working with their parents and medical professionals) can get prescriptions for anti-depressants or other psychotropic drugs that literally alter their brain's chemistry if they have the right diagnosis.


So you are saying that limbs amputation that  is done to reduce infection is the same as what we are talking?

Also do you think, that anti depressants are also ok ? It is not that USA is not the capital of  that... Those do not treat a problem just the symptoms.

Again you think that  cutting a leg if it is a risk for the body is the same as asking a child what do you want to be at 10?

So I guess we should ask them do you want to drive at 10, do you want to drink at 10, do you want to be a mother/father at 10?

And if they says so and the parents agree we should let them do so.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dergeist (Apr 19, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't like the idea of trangender women playing on teams with those who are biologically women either.
> 
> But if I had to choose between that or the creepy coach staring at my daughter's vagina..I think I would deal with the former.



I doubt it will be a coach, it will likely be the school nurse who will approve it/have the records to confirm. I don't know if they have them in the US, do they


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

dergeist said:


> I doubt it will be a coach, it will likely be the school nurse who will approve it/have the records to confirm. I don't know if they have them in the US, do they


See I made a visit, and Now I am going away ...

I don't think this place is healthy at all

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> So you are saying that limbs amputation that most is to reduce infection is the same as what we are talking?


No, they're _different_ medical procedures. If a doctor is prescribing hormone blockers to treat gangrene I think we should probably look into their medical license.



Ren. said:


> Also do you think, that anti depressants are also ok ? It is not that USA is not the capital of that...


I mean, this is pretty far off topic but I think anti-depressants are an okay tool to use.  I think they should be combined with more traditional psychiatric therapy and closely monitored rather than prescribed as a cure-all but I have no fundamental objection to them.



Ren. said:


> Again you think that take a leg if it a risk for the body is the same for asking a child what do you want to be at 10?


Again, I think the right procedures should be used to treat the right conditions.  I think that the condition should be properly diagnosed before you attempt treatment of it.  However if you have a condition that's been diagnosed by medical professionals, and you have a patient with their parents giving informed consent to it, I don't really think it's anyone else's business.

Look, I get that you have a narrow argument that you want to apply.  But at no point have I said that I think the 10 year old should be making this decision in a vacuum.  In fact I've been very clear that I think parental and doctoral input is important in this process.

So if you want to keep hammering away at your strawman go for it.  If you want to have a discussion I'm all for it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ~Gesy~ (Apr 19, 2021)

dergeist said:


> I doubt it will be a coach, it will likely be the school nurse who will approve it/have the records to confirm. I don't know if they have them in the US, do they


Is it gonna be a Goku vagina pat down? And yeah, schools still have nurses...the ones that can afford it at least.


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> No, they're _different_ medical procedures. If a doctor is prescribing hormone blockers to treat gangrene I think we should probably look into their medical license.


...
No, one if let alone has the power to kill the body.

The other changes the body based on the decision of a 10years old regardless of what the parents say.

The parents and medic do not have a say on the body of another person if the body is not affect negatively by not doing so and medically speaking the child's brain is not in the stage to take decisions that will alter his future permanently.

If you think those 2 are the same, then ok.

By this logic, if a 10 years old wants to have a kid and the parents say it is ok, what do you think should be the case?

Again I also don't think a 10 years old should take antidepressant, what is he depressed about, the medic should look into the environment first  and only if he has a mental disorder that will affect his body and mind more than what he takes then and only then he should take those.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> The other changes the body based on the decision of a 10years old regardless of what the parents say.


It's not "regardless of what the parents say."  You have a fundamental misunderstanding here.



Ren. said:


> The parents and medic do not have a say on the body of another person if the body is not affect negatively by not doing so and medically speaking the child's brain is not in the stage to take decisions that will alter his future permanently.


I'll try to explain this, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

The only people that can prescribe treatments other than "over the counter" medicine are medical professionals.  Medical professionals do not blanketly follow direction of their patients, they instead use their medical training to determine the appropriate course of action.

A 10 year old cannot walk into the doctors office and walk out with a prescription for a drug that the doctor does not think the 10 year-old-needs.  A 43 year old cannot walk into the doctors office and walk out with a prescription for a drug that the doctor does not think the 43-year-old needs.

The doctor is going to work with the patient (and in the case of minors most frequently with their parents as well) in order to determine any conditions they might have and what treatment is appropriate.




Ren. said:


> Again I also don't think a 10 years old should take antidepressant, what is he depressed about, the medic should look into the environment first and only if he has a mental disorder that will affect his body and mind more than what he takes then and only then he should take those.


See above, antidepressants aren't prescribed by vending machines.  You have to meet with a medical professional, get diagnosed, and get the prescription before you get them.  You also need ongoing appointments to continue getting them to make sure they're appropriate.

You have NO idea how medical treatment works in the U.S.  You probably should stay out of medical related threads until you do.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> It's not "regardless of what the parents say."  You have a fundamental misunderstanding here.
> 
> 
> I'll try to explain this, since you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
> ...


No you have a fundamental problem with the core issue, this is why minors have guardians and even with those  they can not do things that I enumerated several times.

Go anywhere else than this so called new USA culture and tell that culture that now minors can alter their bodies and see what the other society think so.

Again even if the child and the parents both want the girl to be a mother at 10, that is not the case, as that  effects the child more than the child can understand at the age of 10.

And I know all about what you are saying but there is a mental barrier where you can't understand that minors can not do some things even if the parent and doctors agree ... just because the western new culture are pushing for it, 95% of the people of this planet would have a problem with it.

For some cases you are practically removing the access to reproduction of that child. But it seams to you that a child  can no decide at 10 if he can have a child when older or not/ that the parents or doctors can decide that with the child.

Any clinical mental doctor will say that the decisions that a 10 years do are not the same decisions that he will take when he achieved a mature mental stage. This is why a child at 10 can not be accused of murder even if he facilitated that.

Either way have fun with your logic.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Any clinical mental doctor will say that the decisions that a 10 years do are not the same decision that he will take when he achieved a mature mental stage.


Then I guess you don't have a problem!  If a doctor won't ever prescribe the treatment then it never happens.

It's either that or you're wrong about how doctors evaluate decisions.


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Then I guess you don't have a problem!  If a doctor won't ever prescribe the treatment then it never happens.
> 
> It's either that or you're wrong about how doctors evaluate decisions.


Again you can ask any well quote clinical psychiatric or  read his papers on the evolution of the human mind from birth to adulthood.

Ask him, does the decision to remove the ability to reproduce can be made by a 10 year old child that even did not see the effect of hormones on his body?

If you have that answer, let me read it.

Also when I mean one, I mean a seriously well quoted one in his field, respected by all his peers or most of them regardless of region of birth.

I believe that Sigmund *Freud *would turn in his grave when hearing this question.

I one know for sure I would not have had that mental capacity to decide that when I was 10 or as and Adult I think it is not my right to decide that for my child, sure when he is an adult I would support his decision as his father.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I don't need to, I give it 50 years and western ideologies will be overridden by someone that wants society to be coherent in logic.
> 
> The fall of Rome did not happen in 50 years but this will do so or it will self destroy like many other extinct civilizations before it.


Yes if we're not careful the western world can be plunged into deep decline. I highly doubt trans rights are going to be what's causing that decline however.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Yes if we're not careful the western world can be plunged into deep decline. I highly doubt trans rights are going to be what's causing that decline however.


Ideologies come and go, See what happens in time of war and in time of pace.

Evolution will do what evolution must do. If you think that children are now in the position to do that and you call that a "right" do so, either way, a civilization is based on its new generation, I am on the side to nurture the new generation but again do what you think you will, western civilization is just one of the many civilizations that arrived, stayed and died.


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## Subarashii (Apr 19, 2021)

Why are you talking about sports when this is about child sexual abuse made legal?
Man, y'all will do anything to deflect your wack ass views.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again you can ask any well quote clinical psychiatric or read his papers.



There's three different papers that all show support for puberty blockers administered to (obviously) prepubescent youth.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 19, 2021)

I would agree with the alt right on one thing. There really are only two genders: Male, and political. 
There are also only two race: White, and political.

Any true gamerboy should know this very well.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

"request a certain health examination and consent form or other 1 statement from the student's health care provider to  verify the student's biological sex under certain  circumstances;"


I doubt anyone read the actual bill.

Just in case.



WorkingMoogle said:


> There's three different papers that all show support for puberty blockers administered to (obviously) prepubescent youth.


I will say this once, did  you read the other papers of these authors?

Here is one of them.

Here is the other:


When I said actual well know neuroscientist respected in the field I know what I said.


Here is another one :

Division of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry,  School of Medicine
Verified email at stanford.edu - 


This is the standard a well know Psychiatry that has 5 years of papers.


*Spoiler*: __ 







I mean ... the titles alone can deduce their neutrality on is a child capable to do that at 10!

I don't think you will find any neuroscientist in here or a clinical psychiatrist that made a research that is universally used.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Zhen Chan (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Why are you talking about non athletic transwomen when we are discussing athletic transwomen? A lot of these transwomen are breaking women records and outperforming to a high degree.


Name 5

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Zhen Chan said:


> Name 5


unfurl="true"][/URL]

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Listing transwomen who broke world records isn't an argument... especially when the vast majority don't even make it past minor leagues.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Zhen Chan said:


> Name 5


Just 3 from recent events:
mary gregory
Rachel McKinnon
Fallon Fox

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Listing transwomen who broke world records isn't an argument... especially when the vast majority don't even make it past minor leagues.


Why don't you tag me and I'm simply responding to the person who asked. 
Your argument makes no sense, most women and men in sports will never make it past minor leagues either but its clear the advantage those who experienced puberty have. For someone who mentions research, the article confirming they still maintain an advantage is sure not computing.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Why don't you tag me and I'm simply responding to the person who asked.
> Your argument makes no sense, most women and men in sports will never make it past minor leagues either but its clear the advantage those who experienced puberty have. For someone who mentions research, the article confirming they still maintain an advantage is sure not computing.



So then transwomen following the guidelines set by the sports governing body follow the same trends as cis women. It's easy to understand that if anti-trans people had a case then the majority of trans women that compete would dominate the sport, but that's not the reality.

What do you mean that it's clear that those that have experienced male puberty have an advantage? Most sports require transwomen to be on HRT for a few years before competing, and the research has shown that is enough in the majority of cases.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> So then transwomen following the guidelines set by the sports governing body follow the same trends as cis women. It's easy to understand that if anti-trans people had a case then the majority of trans women that compete would dominate the sport, but that's not the reality.
> 
> What do you mean that it's clear that those that have experienced male puberty have an advantage? Most sports require transwomen to be on HRT for a few years before competing, and the research has shown that is enough in the majority of cases.


Most require a year and even than a study showed more then 2 years is needed for a clear advantage to disappear.
There are already beginning to dominate in certain sports. Nobody is anti-trans, people are willingly acknowledging the need for women to have their own avenues.


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## Yuji (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> So then transwomen following the guidelines set by the sports governing body follow the same trends as cis women. It's easy to understand that if anti-trans people had a case then the majority of trans women that compete would dominate the sport, but that's not the reality.
> 
> *What do you mean that it's clear that those that have experienced male puberty have an advantage? *Most sports require transwomen to be on HRT for a few years before competing, and the research has shown that is enough in the majority of cases.



Not sure what you find confusing about this statement. Are you trying to claim that the only difference between men and women is testosterone?

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 3


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Nobody is anti-trans


Lets not get ahead of ourselves.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)

It's really funny that the party of facts over feelings are using their feelings to justify going against facts.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Yuji said:


> Not sure what you find confusing about this statement. Are you trying to claim that the only difference between men and women is testosterone?



I am not the one that is confused.

I asked him that question because his question implies that transwomen are going into these competitions without going under HRT, I'm giving him an opportunity to clarify himself.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It's really funny that the party of facts over feelings are using their feelings to justify going against facts.



They were suddenly interested in ethics in video game journalism, and now they are suddenly concerned about transwomen in sports.. even though they have been in sports since 1975.

I was laughing when they said they had a "basic understand in biology" but all biologists would disagree with them.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> They were suddenly interested in ethics in video game journalism, and now they are suddenly concerned about transwomen in sports.. even though they have been in sports since 1975.
> 
> I was laughing when they said they had a "basic understand in biology" but all biologists would disagree with them.


Doctors know more than the basics but somehow the overall consensus of psychologists and doctors have no weight compared to the ignorant opinions of republican politicians.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> "request a certain health examination and consent form or other 1 statement from the student's health care provider to  verify the student's biological sex under certain  circumstances;"
> 
> 
> I doubt anyone read the actual bill.
> ...


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 2


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Well, if millions of doctors are doing morally reprehensible things you live in hell world. Go out there and fight the evil kabal of doctors trying to take over the world. You hold the secret weakness to all their studies, you are smarter than all those scientists combined.
> 
> Go forth and fight this evil gay agenda!


You're not making an argument. You’re just calling me a transphobe. If a child with body dysmorphia wants to cut off their arm, should they be allowed to do it?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It's really funny that the party of facts over feelings are using their feelings to justify going against facts.


The facts aren’t on your side.

Reactions: Funny 6 | Winner 1


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> The facts aren’t on your side.


Shhhhh they aren't interested in reality.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 1


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It's really funny that the party of facts over feelings are using their feelings to justify going against facts.


What party, I never stated a political affiliation.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You're not making an argument. You’re just calling me a transphobe. If a child with body dysmorphia wants to cut off their arm, should they be allowed to do it?


Let's consider this, assuming you want a serious answer.

Given the hypothetical of a child with xenomelia, the first step would be to have the parents approach medical professionals about their concern.  The doctor would evaluate the situation and probably refer them to a specialist.

The specialist would then look into the condition and the various treatments that are recommended.  The first note would be that xenomelia has no diagnostic definition, and thus currently has not formal plan within the medical community.  There are a handful of recorded cases but they're all functionally unique.  To draw a parallel, a quick Google search shows now results of children diagnosed with xenomelia, though I wouldn't pretend that this is conclusive.

As a unique situation, there are no formally prescribed treatment plans, and little experience in the outcome of them.  Given this I would expect a variety of experts to be interested in the situation and propose different remedies.  Likely they would start with less intrusive ones than amputation to see if they have impacts while the specifics of this condition are explored.  I lack the specific medical training to suggest what these might be.

In fairness to your point, this is fairly similar to the process of a transgendered child.  I would expect the doctor to first refer the child to an appropriate specialist for diagnosis.  And then I would expect the specialist to discuss treatment possibilities if and when a specific diagnosis is made.  I would even expect they'd start with something less intrusive than amputation, like puberty blockers assuming that was merited by the child's specific case.

Good call, the thread probably could use a reminder not to skip straight to surgery, something lots of people were calling for, and that maybe less intrusive things like puberty blockers should be investigated!


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Let's consider this, assuming you want a serious answer.
> 
> Given the hypothetical of a child with xenomelia, the first step would be to have the parents approach medical professionals about their concern.  The doctor would evaluate the situation and probably refer them to a specialist.
> 
> ...


Or maybe we shouldn’t be drugging up kids to deal with their mental illness? If they’re adults, that’s a different story. They should do whatever makes them happiest. But kids aren’t capable of making these decisions and I suspect that within the next 10 years, we’ll se a lot of lawsuits by people that felt that they were misdiagnosed. Some girls are tomboys. Some boys are effeminate. Let’s not experiment on children. Let kids be kids.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Or maybe we shouldn’t be drugging up kids to deal with their mental illness?


I suppose here we'll have to agree to disagree.  Treating diagnosed conditions with appropriate pharmaceuticals isn't some sort of radical concept.


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## Jim (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> I suppose here we'll have to agree to disagree.  Treating diagnosed conditions with appropriate pharmaceuticals isn't some sort of radical concept.


It's as radical as reducing suicide rates with proper treatment.

I get that people are uncomfortable about it, but suicide rates do decrease


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Jim said:


> It's as radical as reducing suicide rates with proper treatment.
> 
> I get that people are uncomfortable about it, but suicide rates do decrease


Yeah, it's amazing how these line up with anti-vax "arguments" too.

Lots of non-medical professionals having very seriously flawed medical opinions.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Nemesis (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Yeah, it's amazing how these line up with anti-vax "arguments" too.
> 
> Lots of non-medical professionals having very seriously flawed medical opinions.



Because like vaccines they simply put want us gone.  Unlike vaccines, though they have to say other ways because we're actually living people and not a substance.

They make up shit that doesn't happen (minors getting surgery) or deliberately talk about meds (blockers are HRT) and talk about irreversible changes.  

Puberty is an irreversible change which is absolute hell for many of us.  In the end these people are just assholes who will not be happy until we're all shoved off somewhere or forced to live in our AGAB and just keep quiet.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Yeah, it's amazing how these line up with anti-vax "arguments" too.
> 
> Lots of non-medical professionals having very seriously flawed medical opinions.


Rand Paul is a doctor.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> I suppose here we'll have to agree to disagree.  Treating diagnosed conditions with appropriate pharmaceuticals isn't some sort of radical concept.


Don’t you think it’s better to be safe than sorry?


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Rand Paul is a doctor.


I mean....  okay.  And?

He's a ophthalmologist so he's not terribly topical here.  Has he done any (professional) research on the subject?  Co-authored any scientific papers?  Written any articles for medical journals?



Lee-Sensei said:


> Don’t you think it’s better to be safe than sorry?


Sure.  How about instead of skipping to hormones and sex change surgery like your article suggests we start with something safer and more easily reversible like hormone blockers?


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> Because like vaccines they simply put want us gone.  Unlike vaccines, though they have to say other ways because we're actually living people and not a substance.
> 
> They make up shit that doesn't happen (minors getting surgery) or deliberately talk about meds (blockers are HRT) and talk about irreversible changes.
> 
> Puberty is an irreversible change which is absolute hell for many of us.  In the end these people are just assholes who will not be happy until we're all shoved off somewhere or forced to live in our AGAB and just keep quiet.


Puberty is a natural biological process.

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> I mean....  okay.  And?
> 
> He's a ophthalmologist so he's not terribly topical here.  Has he done any (professional) research on the subject?  Co-authored any scientific papers?  Written any articles for medical journals?
> 
> ...


I’m pretty sure that medical students study subjects across the board before specializing.

Hormone blockers aren’t easily reversible.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I’m pretty sure that medical students study subjects across the board before specializing.


Sure, but we have specialists disagreeing with him here.  Specialists with advanced study in the topic.

So the opinion of an eye doctor on it is one that's not going to sway very many people.  Kind of like your anecdotal article that you're posting because you can't find any actual scientific studies that suggest that.

This is all anti-vax level pseudo-science.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> Sure, but we have specialists disagreeing with him here.  Specialists with advanced study in the topic.
> 
> So the opinion of an eye doctor on it is one that's not going to sway very many people.  Kind of like your anecdotal article that you're posting because you can't find any actual scientific studies that suggest that.
> 
> This is all anti-vax level pseudo-science.


This stuff is really new. Just wait. It’s coming.

I’m not an anti-vaxer. People should get vaccinated, but I don’t think they should be forced to do it, because I believe in bodily autonomy.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> This stuff is really new. Just wait. It’s coming.


Possibly.  How about you bump the thread when there's a medical study?


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> The facts aren’t on your side.


Except they are my dear boy.

The human rights campaign, the american psychological association (one of the most impor, the american medical association, the american academy of family physicians, american public health association, etc.

Along with over 40 studies.


Medjaynegus said:


> What party, I never stated a political affiliation


Then I wasn't talking about you. I don't know enough about you to know where your political affiliations sit.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Except they are my dear boy.
> 
> The human rights campaign, the american psychological association (one of the most impor, the american medical association, the american academy of family physicians, american public health association, etc.
> 
> ...


I guess you guys just really loved watching men beat up women.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I guess you guys just really loved watching men beat up women.


That's false she didn't break her opponents skull she broke an orbital socket which is a pretty common injury in MMA fighting.

She did defeat a woman in 39 seconds however a biological woman beat the same person in 36 seconds.

Finally there is a picture circulating of fallon fox and some bloody woman. Fox has never fought that person before.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That's false she didn't break her opponents skull she broke an orbital socket which is a pretty common injury in MMA fighting.
> 
> She did defeat a woman in 39 seconds however a biological woman beat the same person in 36 seconds.
> 
> Finally there is a picture circulating of fallon fox and some bloody woman. Fox has never fought that person before.


Honestly. People should read that. All of these articles denying the reality around trans athletes in women’s sports are hyper partisan and you can read it in the words that they’re using. Being pro or anti transgender doesn’t have anything to do with it. What matters are the facts and the facts are that men and women aren’t physically equal. A biological male that gets a sex change operations later in life has a significant advantage over biological women and putting them in women’s competitions is dangerous. Especially in contact sports.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Honestly. People should read that. All of these articles denying the reality around trans athletes in women’s sports are hyper partisan and you can read it in the words that they’re using.


Except a majority of the articles I post don't ignore reality. Hormone replacement therapy and it's effects are well documented.


Lee-Sensei said:


> Being pro or anti transgender doesn’t have anything to do with it. What matters are the facts and the facts are that men and women aren’t physically equal.


The fact of the matter is though is the reason why they aren't equal and the reason why is largely in part due to hormones.


Lee-Sensei said:


> A biological male that gets a sex change operations later in life has a significant advantage over biological women and putting them in women’s competitions is dangerous. Especially in contact sports.


A sex change operation isn't always what transitioning entails. Hormone replacement therapy is usually the first step to t huh r process of transitioning. There is no large difference between boy and girls until puberty and Estrogen has been shown to lower muscle mass and performance in transgender athletes so much so that many become perform on par with biological women.

Also Fallon Fox disproves the significant advantage that transwomen supposedly have. Orbital fractures are common in MMA so she didn't have some type of crazy gorilla strength, The same woman that she beat in 39 seconds lost to biological woman in 36 seconds, and finally Fallon herself has lost to a biological woman and she only participated in 4 fights during her career. Winning 2 and losing 1 (the other fight may have ended in a tie or something).

Here is the bottom line because no matter what trans women are on the losing side. When they win in a sport it is highly reported on and they only won because of some super advantage they supposedly have. When they lose nothing is said or it's said that they just aren't good and not because the so called advantage that they had didn't exist.

The trans population is miniscule even more so in sports and even a smaller portion in professional sports but their wins are some of the most reported despite the small amount there are.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I guess you guys just really loved watching men beat up women.



You constantly show you are highly misinformed on this subject. Everything has side effects, if you decided to ban everything that had a side effect for someone we would have no medicine or procedures left.

Hey, to everyone who does not want to allow trans women to compete, at least own up to the fact that you are against scientific consensus. It's reality and science that is against you, at least own up to it like the flat earthers and anti-vaxxers already have. Just own up that you believe in a conspiracy theory that the medical field has nefarious intentions and we can move on. Reality and science is not on your side.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> You're not making an argument. You’re just calling me a transphobe. If a child with body dysmorphia wants to cut off their arm, should they be allowed to do it?



I mean, you are quoting a sarcastic response to you, but not believing that trans women are women is the bare minimum requirement to being transphobic. If you said "transwomen should not compete in sports" rather than "men should not be in women's sports" then I would not think you were transphobic.

It's apparent you already don't believe that anyone should transition based on how little you know about the subject (you only support them doing it as adults, but it's only for you to be consistent with your libertarian/conservative beliefs), why post in a thread about trans women in sports? It's not hard to think "I don't know enough about this subject to have a position on it" and not make up your mind, but based on what you've posted here I don't think that's a thought that ever has come across your mind.


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## Sharingonsandninja (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Honestly. People should read that. All of these articles denying the reality around trans athletes in women’s sports are hyper partisan and you can read it in the words that they’re using. *Being pro or anti transgender doesn’t have anything to do with it. What matters are the facts and the facts are that men and women aren’t physically equal. A biological male that gets a sex change operations later in life has a significant advantage over biological women and putting them in women’s competitions is dangerous. Especially in contact sports.*


This. Case closed.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> I mean, you are quoting a sarcastic response to you, but not believing that trans women are women is the bare minimum requirement to being transphobic. If you said "transwomen should not compete in sports" rather than "men should not be in women's sports" then I would not think you were transphobic.
> 
> It's apparent you already don't believe that anyone should transition based on how little you know about the subject (you only support them doing it as adults, but it's only for you to be consistent with your libertarian/conservative beliefs), why post in a thread about trans women in sports? It's not hard to think "I don't know enough about this subject to have a position on it" and not make up your mind, but based on what you've posted here I don't think that's a thought that ever has come across your mind.


My High School biology teacher told me that women are adult female humans. If someone wants to adopt a different gender identity, Ill respect it. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. But trans women are different from women. When I was dating, I was looking for biological women, because trans women can’t get pregnant. I’m not transphobic. I have tremendous sympathy for people with gender dysphoria and I want them to live their best lives.

I think adults should do whatever they want with their own bodies. My primary concern is protecting children and to a lesser extent women. Women and men shouldn’t compete against each other in sports. We used to know this.

Kue, why is it such a bad idea to have transgender athletes compete against men?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> My High School biology teacher told me that women are adult female humans. If someone wants to adopt a different gender identity, Ill respect it. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. But trans women are different from women. When I was dating, I was looking for biological women, because trans women can’t get pregnant. I’m not transphobic. I have tremendous sympathy for people with gender dysphoria and I want them to live their best lives.
> 
> I think adults should do whatever they want with their own bodies. My primary concern is protecting children and to a lesser extent women. Women and men shouldn’t compete against each other in sports. We used to know this.
> 
> Kue, why is it such a bad idea to have transgender athletes compete against men?



Then again, not understanding anything.

Transwomen go through HRT, so they would be at a significant enough disadvantage competing against cis men. You demonstrate constantly that you don't understand what makes cis men and cis women different in sports. From the study you cited, 88% would be fine to compete against cis women as long as they have been on HRT for 2 years. Transwomen already don't win most competitions against cis women, your paranoia is unfounded.

If you want to stop being called transphobic, how about you stop calling trans women men? It's not men competing against women in sports, they are trans women.


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Then again, not understanding anything.
> 
> Transwomen go through HRT, so they would be at a significant enough disadvantage competing against cis men. You demonstrate constantly that you don't understand what makes cis men and cis women different in sports. From the study you cited, 88% would be fine to compete against cis women as long as they have been on HRT for 2 years. Transwomen already don't win most competitions against cis women, your paranoia is unfounded.
> 
> If you want to stop being called transphobic, how about you stop calling trans women men? It's not men competing against women in sports, they are trans women.


Over 2 years.  
What proof exists that most transwomen do not win most competitions against women? Why re so many women complaining and fighting to keep them out of sports competition meant for women.


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 19, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> My High School biology teacher told me that women are adult female humans. If someone wants to adopt a different gender identity, Ill respect it. I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. But trans women are different from women. When I was dating, I was looking for biological women, because trans women can’t get pregnant. I’m not transphobic. I have tremendous sympathy for people with gender dysphoria and I want them to live their best lives.
> 
> I think adults should do whatever they want with their own bodies. My primary concern is protecting children and to a lesser extent women. Women and men shouldn’t compete against each other in sports. We used to know this.
> 
> Kue, why is it such a bad idea to have transgender athletes compete against men?


Thank you, let's bring up the ability to give birth and things get quiet.


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> They were suddenly interested in ethics in video game journalism


To be honest regarding this I don't care about ethics, I want journalism in games to stop existing, it has no place.

User reviews, demos and YT walkthroughs is more than enough.



Lee-Sensei said:


> The facts aren’t on your side.


I mean they are quoting social studies paper like from the link they provided before so because I did not read them, they did not read them, we can't know the "facts".


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Over 2 years.
> What proof exists that most transwomen do not win most competitions against women? Why re so many women complaining and fighting to keep them out of sports competition meant for women.



Transphobia.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Transphobia.


I see a mod in here.

Phobia means to fear. I don't accept any article on this phobia is a well defined word:
"A *phobia* is an excessive and irrational fear reaction. If you have a *phobia*, you may experience a deep sense of dread or panic when you encounter the source of your fear. The fear can be of a certain place, situation, or object. Unlike general anxiety disorders, a *phobia* is usually connected to something specific."

So transphobia means to fear trans people.

How do you arrived  to the conclusion that people that do not agree with you fear trans people.

I am asking because the entire staff in this forum also says this, who said that who disagrees with you fears people that transitioned?

What is your argument that discussing and having a different opinion about 10 year old means they fear people that will/ have transitioned?

Phobias are easy to show!

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

Ren. said:


> I see a mod in here.
> 
> Phobia means to fear.
> 
> ...



Fear doesn't only entail being afraid of specific trans people.

The fear can include the unfounded fear of trans women are taking over sports, which is what is happening here.


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## Kue (Apr 19, 2021)

I mean, if you want my respect at least, you can just own up to it. If Lee would just admit that he is transphobic he would have my respect 100%, I don't respect people who want to have it both ways.


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## Ren. (Apr 19, 2021)

Kue said:


> Fear doesn't only entail being afraid of specific trans people.
> 
> The fear can include the unfounded fear of trans women are taking over sports, which is what is happening here.


No, do not deviate.

Phobia is a general thing regarding the object or subject that you fear.

You don' fear a specific scenario but the entire concept.

If you are agaro, you don't feae a spider that is in one specific place, but all spiders in all places.



Kue said:


> I mean, if you want my respect at least, you can just own up to it. If Lee would just admit that he is transphobic he would have my respect 100%, I don't respect people who want to have it both ways.


What you are saying is this:

Agree with me and you are ok, don't and you have a phobia that is not about the subject but about something that I can name myself that has nothing to do with the concept of phobia.

Also let's say it is fear. You are condemning people for fear now?

In fact reading your posts you are suggesting that phobia is hate and not fear ... you can disagree with me.

Again let's say that is the case,  are you condemning fear now?

Also fear is not something that you can control by just talking or agreeing etc. In fact most people that have a phobia of something do not talk about that subject most of the time.

You don't need to answer to any of this questions btw so don't feel pressured.


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> No do not deviate.
> 
> Phobia is a general thing regarding the object or subject that you fear.
> 
> ...



If we were to use your analogy, Lee is only saying he gets afraid of spiders in sporting events, but his fear of trans people would become apparent if we were to examine his personal life. Even him posting the video of the runner first rather than a video of compiling studies shows that he has a visceral reaction towards this.

He said he doesn't date trans people because they can't give birth, but in a few decades from now when womb transplants become a thing, he would just come up with a different excuse and insist he is not transphobic. Don't like penises? Great, she had post-op surgery, what now? He doesn't like post-op vaginas? He'll only date people with certain chromosomes. Great, it's 50 years in the future and genetic engineering lets people change their chromosomes, thus letting anyone be able to grow a vagina and have the chromosomes he wants, what now? Then he will come up with another excuse.

You have to be charitable to me, because someone who's transphobic will not outright admit it, and if they are smart enough they'll use dogwhistles to hide it which Lee has already done. It'll deceive normies for sure but I'm able to spot the dog whistles.

Let me go to a bar with anyone here, spend a few hours with them while drinking and I'll show you a transphobe when the defenses are down.



> What you are saying is this:
> 
> Agree with me and you are ok, don't and you have a phobia that is not about the subject but about something that I can name myself that has nothing to do with the concept of phobia.
> 
> ...



Are you going to ignore when I told Lee that if he said that trans women should not be allowed in sports vs men should not be allowed to compete in sports, I wouldn't think he is transphobic?

I see the SJW angle coming, come argue with me as if it's still 2016.


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## Nemesis (Apr 20, 2021)

OED said:
			
		

> phobia, n.





			
				OED said:
			
		

> View as:
> 
> |
> 
> ...



Oxford English dictionary

So yeah Don't give me shit that it's about fear, some of you hate us and wishes we just didn't exist.  Get over it and stop trying to control us.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> it's about fear, some of you hate us


Exactly what I said.

So it is a fear but in fact it is hate.


Nemesis said:


> Get over it and stop trying to control us.


Yes because I a user has the power to control you.

Either way I know that we can't have a discussion based on honesty but on power.
So again all of you have a nice day.


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Phobia leads to hatred, even Yoda said this.

You need to start with the irrational fear to get to it.

Fear of white replacement led to white nationalism.

Fear of jewish people eventually led them to placing them into camps.


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> He said he doesn't date trans people because they can't give birth, but in a few decades from now when womb transplants become a thing, he would just come up with a different excuse and insist he is not transphobic. Don't like penises? Great, she had post-op surgery, what now? He doesn't like post-op vaginas? He'll only date people with certain chromosomes. Great, it's 50 years in the future and genetic engineering lets people change their chromosomes, thus letting anyone be able to grow a vagina and have the chromosomes he wants, what now? Then he will come up with another excuse.


In fact I would want all of that to be available now or just transmorphism at DNA level but I don't think we will have all of that in just 50 years.



Kue said:


> Phobia leads to hatred


Then use hatred and prove it, disagreement is not hate. In this topics power is used not logic.

Either way I know we can't have a discussion without saying hate or fear.



Kue said:


> Fear of jewish people eventually led them to placing them into camps.


You mean propaganda for power?
You mean the fear of the power of one skin now?


Kue said:


> Phobia leads to hatred,


No I am sorry fear of spiders is different from hatred of spiders, and it does not morph universally from another.

Fear is not a stage of hate.


Ok, damn just reading the dictionaries and how much are overwritten with political crap.


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

There's also a reason why Lee can't concede that trans women that have not gone through male puberty should compete. It is not about being concerned about women's sports, he just doesn't like trans people. You need to go through a male puberty to have any of the advantages mentioned, if you can't concede this then you either don't understand puberty at all or you just don't like trans people point and blank.


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> if you can't concede this then you either don't understand puberty at all or you just don't like trans people point and blank.


Again this logic is from power.

If you don't agree with me, then you hate or do not understand.

No one would want a debate with anyone saying that if you are not with me you are against me.

A disagreement is not hatred or lack of information, if that was the truth, negotiation would not be a thing.

What you are saying is that you can not have a debate on something if the people  you debate with do not agree with you.

Or in another interpretation you are not debating you are assuring superiority of conviction, and you guys sent me links, science has one thing concrete:

Everything is debatable even the most universal things:

Atom was once the smallest particle, then protons etc.

If we fallow that rule, we won't go anywhere in life.

Also another thing that I saw is often use to win an argument is studies but again no one reads the person that does the study or the study in itself ... so how do you expect me to agree with you when you concluded based on a title most likely from a person that studies exactly your take on the subject and is just a 5 years old P.HD that well is no authority on any field!


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> Again this logic is from power.
> 
> If you don't agree with me, then you hate or do not understand.
> 
> ...



In this case it is true. We are not talking about pizza toppings, we are talking about one side having overwhelming evidence and the other side lacking it. It becomes more complicated when someone has gone through male puberty yes, but anyone who cares about women's sports and looked into this, they would already concede that trans women who have not gone through a male puberty are not a concern. Someone who can't concede this would show that they are not informed on this subject and I can be condescending towards them. You're not gonna make me feel bad about this.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> We are not talking about pizza toppings, we are talking about one side having overwhelming evidence and the other side lacking it.


What evidence?


Ren. said:


> Also another thing that I saw is often use to win an argument is studies but again no one reads the person that does the study or the study in itself ... so how do you expect me to agree with you when you concluded based on a title most likely from a person that studies exactly your take on the subject and is just a 5 years old P.HD that well is no authority on any field!


Again I just searched a little the persons that you used to provide evidence.

Ok we have a title, we have his majoring on. He started 5 years so I know he is not an authority.

He also did not study this from a general perspective reading his majoring ...

So you came to a debate with evidence from the person that has the same take as you, also please don't ask me to provide evidence for a negative.

What I am saying do you have a study from a neutral stand point from someone in a general field like neuroscience that is well versed for more and respected?



Kue said:


> Someone who can't concede this would show that they are not informed on this subject and I can be condescending towards them.


Well I knew that but yeah just say that at the start that you wanted a monologue with research from 5 years old PHD that majors in the subject that you agree on. I mean 
He is only studding this so it doesn't take more than 2 seconds to deduce what is his opinion on things that are this early in research!

Also research like this are not facts. Even in hard science a theorem is not a fact but one of the possible interpretations.

This type of subject and morphism is a new subject that is changing which each year.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> What evidence?



For which argument? You do know me and Lee have been going back and forth for a while?


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> For which argument? You do know me and Lee have been going back and forth for a while?


In general I saw the research papers but I never saw research papers that try to contradict them.

A way to validate "evidence" in research is quotation and comparison with research that disagrees.

Showing me research from one part is like saying socialism is good, here is Marx, this is my prof.

Either way this is going too much in depth  and you already established that the point of your posts is most likely to assume dominance of your arguments by providing research that is from the same spectrum and that would be fine but also that if you do not agree with that then there is not just disagreement but hate and fear.

So yeah have a nice day.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> In general I saw the research papers but I never saw research papers that try to contradict them.
> 
> A way to validate "evidence" in research is quotation and comparison with research that disagrees.
> 
> ...



I don't know how many times I'm going to repeat this, but yes, it is more complicated if the trans woman went through a male puberty.

There is no debate to be had if she never went through a male puberty in the first place, it is male puberty that gives men the muscle mass and bone density difference. This is what puberty does.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> There is no debate to be had


End of discussion. Start with that when you debate so people can understand who are they are against.

Have a nice day.

Also there is a debate and that is what I was more interested in and that is minors alliterating their bodies at the age of 10 when their brains are not developed enough.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Ren. said:


> End of discussion. Star with that when you debate so people can understand who are they are debating.
> 
> Have a nice day.



Thanks for the W.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> Thanks for the W.


Sure if you want a W by saying I have this and this is it.

You can have all the Wins from me.

It is a waste of posts.  
And next time use hate and not phobia so I can unsubscribe faster.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

Hurr durr. 

If it's not male puberty that grants them the muscle mass and bone density what could it be?

Do boys pray to Ares to start getting more muscle mass and bone density compared to girls? I have no idea.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

Again that was not even debated ...  

But if you agree with that then you are agreeing that male bodies can not compete with female bodies regardless of current testosterone. I was not debating this.

Also again the point was 10 year old changing the growth path of his body at that mental age ... no one from neuroscience would agree with that. Keep on pilling the useless non general studies to the sky, it won't change much.

This is again that phobia misusage is in fact hate by typing phobia and seen that fear can generate hate or dislike, ok that is so news worthy that a discomfort to the body can generate dislike  but again even in 1000 years fear is not hate, they are two different words for a reason.

I mean if you need this many jumps in logic to argue about something well yeah just admit you want to assume your conclusion from the start as a general universal agreement.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 20, 2021)

Jim said:


> I wonder how many posters realized that non trans will also get genital inspections


Also this kinda puts kids in danger doesn’t it?
Parents are afraid their kid being in the same bathroom as a trans.

but are okay with a state official/coach/teacher/doctor asking their sons and daughters to drop their pants for them before they can play sports?

totally not traumatizing for kids and totally not gonna open themselves up to getting molested by adults
No sir


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## Kathutet (Apr 20, 2021)

man y'all obsessed with genitals, who's the actual perverts now


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## Kathutet (Apr 20, 2021)

i fucking love how every time in politics kids are a political football because "we must protect the children" and now that's changed to "you show me yours and i won't show you mine" because sp0rtsball


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 20, 2021)

Right wing people: I’m anti-government I hate the damn feds trying to regulate me and telling me what to do. The government should only protect my property and have a army for self defense 

Trans person: hey can I use your bath room and maybe play a sport?

right wing people: QUICK GOVERNMENT! STOP THEM!
Tell them they can’t do that

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> I don't know how many times I'm going to repeat this, but yes, it is more complicated if the trans woman went through a male puberty.
> 
> There is no debate to be had if she never went through a male puberty in the first place, it is male puberty that gives men the muscle mass and bone density difference. This is what puberty does.


How many went treatment before puberty? Why haven't you answered that? People are acting as if most people transition before puberty.


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 20, 2021)

makeoutparadise said:


> Right wing people: I’m anti-government I hate the damn feds trying to regulate me and telling me what to do. The government should only protect my property and have a army for self defense
> 
> Trans person: hey can I use your bath room and maybe play a sport?
> 
> ...


Government at all levels already regulates what children can do. This is simply consistent with what they have always done.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 20, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> Government at all levels already regulates what children can do. This is simply consistent with what they have always done.


Not checking a kid’s genitals to see if they’re lying
That’s too invasive

“Sure let’s make kids drop their pants in front of strangers but god forbid you try and get me vaccinated.”


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 20, 2021)

makeoutparadise said:


> Not checking a kid’s genitals to see if they’re lying
> That’s too invasive
> 
> “Sure let’s make kids drop their pants in front of strangers but god forbid you try and get me vaccinated.”


"request a certain health examination and consent form or other *1 statement from the student's health care provider* to verify the student's biological sex under certain circumstances;"



They aren't being made to do anything. You aren't forced to play sports.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 20, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> They aren't being made to do anything. You aren't forced to play sports.


No but if you do want to play sports you're forced be presumable pedephilic lawmakers to have an adult look into your pants.


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 20, 2021)

So a girl shaves her head and plays foot ball as a guy
How does this affect me personally in my daily life?


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## blk (Apr 20, 2021)

Guess we should have vaccination IDs to go to restaurants, bars, clubs, etc, literally anything that isn't a basic grocery store / needed only for bare minimum survival 

It's not like people are forced to go to those amenities

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 20, 2021)

blk said:


> Guess we should have vaccination IDs to go to restaurants, bars, clubs, etc, literally anything that isn't a basic grocery store / needed only for bare minimum survival
> 
> It's not like people are forced to go to those amenities


Its a little different. Vacine ID's are there to help ensure you don't get people sick and cause them to die. 

Meanwhile looking into kids pants is only there to ensure trans people feel unwelcome and maybe satisfy the urges of some Republican weirdo's in the political arena.


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## blk (Apr 20, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Its a little different. Vacine ID's are there to help ensure you don't get people sick and cause them to die.
> 
> Meanwhile looking into kids pants is only there to ensure trans people feel unwelcome and maybe satisfy the urges of some Republican weirdo's in the political arena.



Yeah the vaccination thing is ironically more justified lol.

Just using ShinAkuma's / conservative reasoning against themselves (since iirc conservatives oppose vaccination IDs and the such).


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 20, 2021)

Kue said:


> In this case it is true. We are not talking about pizza toppings, we are talking about one side having overwhelming evidence and the other side lacking it. It becomes more complicated when someone has gone through male puberty yes, but anyone who cares about women's sports and looked into this, they would already concede that trans women who have not gone through a male puberty are not a concern. Someone who can't concede this would show that they are not informed on this subject and I can be condescending towards them. You're not gonna make me feel bad about this.


The fuck you on about, I got a ton of evidence that pineapple on pizza is shit.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Disagree 1


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 20, 2021)

makeoutparadise said:


> but are okay with a state official/coach/teacher/doctor asking their sons and daughters to drop their pants for them before they can play sports?


Man, doctors already fondled my prepubescent balls for physicals so I could play sports.


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 20, 2021)

Capt. Autismo said:


> Man, doctors already fondled my prepubescent balls for physicals so I could play sports.


I played soccer as a kid never happened to me


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 20, 2021)

makeoutparadise said:


> I played soccer as a kid never happened to me


They are checking for a hernia, making sure your intestines didn't slip into the scrotal sack. It is a requirement in most places to play sports. You need the full physical done. Might depend how young you are.


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 20, 2021)

I met someone at an airport bar once and we started talking about physicals and he mentioned on his first physical the doctor stuck a finger in his butt, which isn't part of the physical. And he really didn't think anything of it as a kid, because he just thought it was part of the exam. Until he got older then he was like, hold up.

I died laughing with this guy. Lol


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## Ren. (Apr 20, 2021)

This BS section never disappoints  me.
Do some of you ever read anything bar left vs right?

Even if that was written as a question, it is not a question!


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 20, 2021)

"I used the degeneracy to destroy the degeneracy."


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 20, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> But trans women are different from women. When I was dating, I was looking for biological women, because trans women can’t get pregnant.


Some biological women are unable to get pregnant. You must be turning the down for the same reason.


Lee-Sensei said:


> My primary concern is protecting children and to a lesser extent women. Women and men shouldn’t compete against each other in sports. We used to know this.


If you wanted to protect children you would trust what the medical professionals had to say on the subject matter instead of your own feelings on the matter.


Medjaynegus said:


> Thank you, let's bring up the ability to give birth and things get quiet


Well it's about to get louder isn't it? Some biological women can't have children are they no longer women in your eyes?


Medjaynegus said:


> How many went treatment before puberty? Why haven't you answered that? People are acting as if most people transition before puberty.


So you think there is like some sort of database you can go clickity click in to find that information? 

You're acting as if people purposefully choose to transition after puberty. Hell people like you who just dig your heels in the ground at every turn are the reason some of these children have no choice but to wait until after puberty to transition. Then you fault them for it because they went through it.

Let me asnswer your question with one. How many transgender athletes do you think are playing sports? People are acting like they are everywhere and winning everything. Can you give me an answer to that?

It's so crazy that liberals are said to be the ones denying reality. Yet they aren't the ones who are doubting numerous studies and spreading misinformation on the subject as well.

Just admit you're only using feelings and call it a day it's not hard at all.


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 20, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> No but if you do want to play sports you're forced be presumable pedephilic lawmakers to have an adult look into your pants.


Or your doctor just gives a statement.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 20, 2021)

The more I consider this, this seems less a bill to hurt transgender people (though it obviously does that) and more a bill to punish high school girls.

There will be some set of girls who are afraid of an "examination" and choose not to participate in sports because of this.

There will be some set of girls who's parents think they are too young for a genital examination, and refuse to allow them to participate because of this.

There will be some set of girls who are frightened off because of rumors misrepresenting this bill (eg, "yeah, Coach Bill comes in and inspects all the girls before each game").

There will be some set of girls that stop participating in sports (either for the above or for some entirely unrelated reason) that will now have to deal with rumors they're transgendered.

I have no idea how many girls this represents, but it's not zero.  Which ultimately means that this bill is causing less women participating in sports.

(I'd probably guess that the number of young girls that quit/never start sports because of this is a number larger than the number of transgendered currently participating in sports, but I'll admit that's mere speculation)

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 20, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> The more I consider this, this seems less a bill to hurt transgender people (though it obviously does that) and more a bill to punish high school girls.
> 
> There will be some set of girls who are afraid of an "examination" and choose not to participate in sports because of this.
> 
> ...


What about the women asking to not have transwomen participate in sports designated for women.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Sad! 1


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## Kue (Apr 20, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> The more I consider this, this seems less a bill to hurt transgender people (though it obviously does that) and more a bill to punish high school girls.
> 
> There will be some set of girls who are afraid of an "examination" and choose not to participate in sports because of this.
> 
> ...



It's going to be the same thing that happened with the bathroom bill. A lot of cisgender people got harassment for getting mistaken for being trans.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 20, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> What about the women asking to not have transwomen participate in sports designated for women.


In pretty much everything there's differences between intent and execution.

In this the intent might be to block trans-women from competing alongside CIS women.  But I'm guessing the intent is not to have CIS women unwilling to participate in sports because of it, which is what this execution will cause.

I'm actually unsure of a way you could execute this that _wouldn't_ have this consequence, so I guess the question is how many women are you willing to exclude from sports in order to achieve this goal?



Kue said:


> It's going to be the same thing that happened with the bathroom bill. A lot of cisgender people got harassment for getting mistaken for being trans.


Yeah, knowing high schoolers (or God forbid middle schoolers) this will absolutely happen.


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## Medjaynegus (Apr 20, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> In pretty much everything there's differences between intent and execution.
> 
> In this the intent might be to block trans-women from competing alongside CIS women.  But I'm guessing the intent is not to have CIS women unwilling to participate in sports because of it, which is what this execution will cause.
> 
> ...


Cis women are fighting to not have trans women participate, I'm confident banning transwomen won't negatively affect cis women from joining sports.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 20, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> Cis women are fighting to not have trans women not participate, I'm confident banning transwomen won't negatively affect cis women from joining sports.


Good luck writing that bill 

This one will have unintended impact though.  Or at least additional impact, I guess I don't know the intent of the authors.


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## Subarashii (Apr 20, 2021)

Florida: Legalizing child sexual abuse AND vehicular homicide  


It used to be Florida man was the crazy part, now it's FL gov't.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Jim (Apr 20, 2021)

That gif is so insanely popular, lol

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Nemesis (Apr 21, 2021)

Excellent news if true.  Looks like the deal is dead (At least for now)

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> Excellent news if true.  Looks like the deal is dead (At least for now)



Not surprising cause Florida isn't France(Not yet anyway) got to give it a few more years before they Green Light Pedo activity.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Apr 21, 2021)

Some people would appease 0.6% of the population by giving disadvantage to 50% of the population.  Genital inspection is obviously shitty but professional sport should only have two leagues, an open league for men, transmen (male hormone, testosterone advantage), and transwomen (bone density, muscle mass advantage), then another league for biological female.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 3


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 21, 2021)

Florida transgender sports bill might have just died in the Florida Senate​
Take that Hitler

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yami Munesanzun (Apr 21, 2021)

Medjaynegus said:


> What about the women asking to not have transwomen participate in sports designated for women.


Please don't pretend like you actually give a shit.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Dislike 1


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## Subarashii (Apr 21, 2021)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> Please don't pretend like you actually give a shit.


Most of the people here mad about transwomen in sports, only care about women's sports when trans people are trying to play.  You can bet they skip that ESPN channel

Reactions: Funny 3


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 21, 2021)

Subarashii said:


> Most of the people here mad about transwomen in sports, only care about women's sports when trans people are trying to play.  You can bet they skip that ESPN channel


That's so true lmao. If some of these people actually cared the female sports would be watched just as much and they'd have equal pay.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Death Certificate (Apr 21, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> If some of these people actually cared the female sports would be watched just as much and they'd have equal pay.



Funny enough I bet someone of the people hear are against the USA soccer women's team (or any womens team) from demanding Equal pay and pull similar bullshit excuses about how men and women are different.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Nemesis (Apr 21, 2021)

It's also funny they are so mad they use the same 2-3 points which have been debunked.  Not just that they can't name a transgender Olympic champion because there has been 0, when asked to name a transgender Olympian there has been 0.  Transgender women have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004, if there was some great taking over of sports it would have happened long ago.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 21, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> It's also funny they are so mad they use the same 2-3 points which have been debunked.  Not just that they can't name a transgender Olympic champion because there has been 0, when asked to name a transgender Olympian there has been 0.  Transgender women have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004, if there was some great taking over of sports it would have happened long ago.


The IOC guidelines allows for fully transitioned athletes, a somewhat strict bar. Might explain why there has been 0 participation.

Also I don't think these bills are about stopping a Trans athlete take over, I don't think anybody believes that is occurring, it's more with keeping the competition fair for women.

The reality is laws aren't made for those who abide by the rules, they are made for those wishing to exploit the rules. There is no doubt that there are trans women out there who just want to compete with the sex they feel they belong with, but there is also unscrupulous people who may exploit these people.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (Apr 21, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> It's also funny they are so mad they use the same 2-3 points which have been debunked.  Not just that they can't name a transgender Olympic champion because there has been 0, when asked to name a transgender Olympian there has been 0.  Transgender women have been allowed in the Olympics since 2004, if there was some great taking over of sports it would have happened long ago.



Because it's not allowed yet?  If it's allowed it will be exploited.  Not to mention most of the world outside of the west will vote against it.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 21, 2021)

Death Certificate said:


> Funny enough I bet someone of the people hear are against the USA soccer women's team (or any womens team) from demanding Equal pay and pull similar bullshit excuses about how men and women are different.


No doubt. The women are world champions (soccer) but only make a fraction of the money the men do despite performing better in their category. 

So these transgender women competing is somehow unfair to biological women. When it's well noted that society as a whole has been unfair to women in sports. They get paid a shit ton less, paid attention to a shit ton less, and are basically seen as a joke even at the top of their field. Sometimes the only coverage they get is when a transwomen competes. 

Not realizing that they are just being used. Some of these female athletes are happy to throw transfemales under the bus but don't take a second to wonder would their existence have been acknowledged if not for these transwomen.


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 21, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> No doubt. The women are world champions (soccer) but only make a fraction of the money the men do despite performing better in their category.
> 
> So these transgender women competing is somehow unfair to biological women. When it's well noted that society as a whole has been unfair to women in sports. They get paid a shit ton less, paid attention to a shit ton less, and are basically seen as a joke even at the top of their field. Sometimes the only coverage they get is when a transwomen competes.
> 
> Not realizing that they are just being used. Some of these female athletes are happy to throw transfemales under the bus but don't take a second to wonder would their existence have been acknowledged if not for these transwomen.


Also note that by "it's unfair to those that get paid" you're looking at an absolutely TINY percentage of athletes.

If you're willing to do even mild harm to all the non-professional athletes in order to "protect" the tiny, tiny number of professional athletes you're doing a lot of net harm.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 21, 2021)



Reactions: Informative 2


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## Subarashii (Apr 21, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> The IOC guidelines allows for fully transitioned athletes, a somewhat strict bar. Might explain why there has been 0 participation.
> 
> Also I don't think these bills are about stopping a Trans athlete take over, I don't think anybody believes that is occurring, *it's more with keeping the competition fair for women.*
> 
> The reality is laws aren't made for those who abide by the rules, they are made for those wishing to exploit the rules. There is no doubt that there are trans women out there who just want to compete with the sex they feel they belong with, but there is also unscrupulous people who may exploit these people.


So now you care about women?  You do know transwomen are women, right?



> The first problem Australia’s national women’s soccer team encountered in a practice match against a team of teenaged boys Wednesday was this: the inability to field the full women’s national team.
> 
> The second problem the team nicknamed the “Matildas” encountered in that practice match was this: treating it like a practice match.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 21, 2021)

Subarashii said:


> So now you care about women?  You do know transwomen are women, right?


Whatever helps them sleep at night, I'm just surprised Australia calls it soccer and not Football.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShinAkuma (Apr 21, 2021)

Subarashii said:


> So now you care about women?  You do know transwomen are women, right?


Another lunatic take, right on time.

How I feel about women is irrelevant, the laws in question are in regards to biological women vs trans women. Take your issue up with the law makers.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Some biological women are unable to get pregnant. You must be turning the down for the same reason.


What are the chances of any CIS woman having the ability to reproduce versus that of a trans woman?


SakuraLover16 said:


> That's so true lmao. If some of these people actually cared the female sports would be watched just as much and they'd have equal pay.


How many hours a week do you watch female sports?


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> What are the chances of any CIS woman having the ability to reproduce versus that of a trans woman?


That's not what was being insinuated when it came to that question. His criteria for what made a woman a woman was her ability to have children I just brought up a well known fact that some women are unable to have children and asked did that make them any less of a woman to test him on statement. 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> How many hours a week do you watch female sports?


Who knows maybe the same amount as you. My point is if someone is going to be concerned about women sports be concerned all the time not just when it's politically charged. Most of the time after all is said and done people go back to ignoring female sports because they may have never really cared in the first place.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That's not what was being insinuated when it came to that question.


His statement was clear, he values women that can produce children. Most cis women can have children, zero trans women can have children.


SakuraLover16 said:


> His criteria for what made a woman a woman was her ability to have children I just brought up a well known fact that some women are unable to have children and asked did that make them any less of a woman to test him on statement.


It’s simple, most heterosexual men are not attracted to trans women, because we don’t view them the same as those that were born with a vagina. Don’t make it anymore difficult than it needs to be.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Who knows maybe the same amount as you. My point is if someone is going to be concerned about women sports be concerned all the time not just when it's politically charged. Most of the time after all is said and done people go back to ignoring female sports because they may have never really cared in the first place.


You’re here concerned about women’s sports and you just about admitted that you don’t watch at all, you’re breaking your own standard. It’s ok for those for those who share your beliefs not to watch and still make arguments, but those against your beliefs who don’t watch are disqualified from debate.

You don’t even do your part in following the careers of trans athletes, yet you try to use them as a form of sociopolitical currency. Thats the textbook definition of exploitation.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> His statement was clear, he values women that can produce children. Most cis women can have children, zero trans women can have children.


No he used whether or not they could have children as a benchmark to whether they are women or not I read the post and am aware of the context of the conversation I had with him. Oh by the transwomen can have children and can be fertile they just can't get pregnant.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s simple, most heterosexual men are not attracted to trans women, because we don’t view them the same as those that were born with a vagina. Don’t make it anymore difficult than it needs to be.


Don't speak for all men the trans category in porn is becoming more and more popular. Has it occured to you that men can be attracted to the femininity of transwomen without being attracted to the sexual organ they may possess?


Kisame3rd14 said:


> You’re here concerned about women’s sports and you just about admitted that you don’t watch at all, you’re breaking your own standard. It’s ok for those for those who share your beliefs not to watch and still make arguments, but those against your beliefs who don’t watch are disqualified from debate.


Correction I don't watch mens or women's sports I'm equally uninterested in both. No one is saying anyone is disqualified to debate however what I am saying is that if this was really about equality and fairness women's sports wouldn't be the way they are now. They would have just as much funding, be paid the same as their male counterparts, watched as much as their counterparts, etc. Instead they are largely ignored until some new transgender person comes around the block causing a storm of media attention and then after things die down women go back to being largely ignored. Regardless of popularity I'll always be interested in how trans people are treated.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> You don’t even do your part in following the careers of trans athletes, yet you try to use them as a form of sociopolitical currency. Thats the textbook definition of exploitation.


Isn't that what you're doing to women? Also doesn't this mean you are accusing the other side of that which you are guilty of? I'm not interested in sociopolitical currency what I am interested in are the rights of marginalized groups of people. Arguing using science and studies to explain why a group should be allowed to participate in sports isn't exploitation. Arguing why a group shouldn't be treated as second class citizens isn't exploitation. Maybe you need to actually see who is exploiting what before you throw out accusations.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> No he used whether or not they could have children as a benchmark to whether they are women or not I read the post and am aware of the context of the conversation I had with him. Oh by the transwomen can have children and can be fertile they just can't get pregnant.


Using the term benchmark is hyperbolic, he used it as an example, get over it.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Don't speak for all men the trans category in porn is becoming more and more popular. Has it occured to you that men can be attracted to the femininity of transwomen without being attracted to the sexual organ they may possess?


Animated porn where youthful looking characters are objectified by giant squid tentacles is a popular subcategory as well. That doesn’t mean attractiveness to squid tentacles is on the rise.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Correction I don't watch mens or women's sports I'm equally uninterested in both. No one is saying anyone is disqualified to debate however what I am saying is that if this was really about equality and fairness women's sports wouldn't be the way they are now. They would have just as much funding, be paid the same as their male counterparts, watched as much as their counterparts, etc. Instead they are largely ignored until some new transgender person comes around the block causing a storm of media attention and then after things die down women go back to being largely ignored. Regardless of popularity I'll always be interested in how trans people are treated.


They don’t have the funding because people don’t watch it, people don’t watch because they are less athletic and less skilled at their craft than male counterparts. If women were better athletes than men, nobody would watch men’s sports, but the fact is they are worse at every major professional sport.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Isn't that what you're doing to women? Also doesn't this mean you are accusing the other side of that which you are guilty of? I'm not interested in sociopolitical currency what I am interested in are the rights of marginalized groups of people. Arguing using science and studies to explain why a group should be allowed to participate in sports isn't exploitation. Arguing why a group shouldn't be treated as second class citizens isn't exploitation. Maybe you need to actually see who is exploiting what before you throw out accusations.


No I’m not advocating for women while not supporting women. You’re advocating for trans athletes yet you are not doing your part to support them by watching them on tv. You’re a hypocrite and you’re exploiting them for the sake of an argument.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## Yuji (Apr 24, 2021)

You don't have to watch every sport to be interested in the integrity of it. That is such a piss poor argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pliskin (Apr 24, 2021)

I am not watching sports too much so I have very limited interest in the integrity of it.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

Yuji said:


> You don't have to watch every sport to be interested in the integrity of it. That is such a piss poor argument.


I never said you did, but this person and others decided to use it as a point to detract from the opposing arguments. Now that I flipped it on them you’re calling it a poor argument. Why didn’t you consider it a poor argument when they used it first?


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Using the term benchmark is hyperbolic, he used it as an example, get over it.


Maybe you should get over it. You're trying mighty hard to change the meaning of what he said.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Animated porn where youthful looking characters are objectified by giant squid tentacles is a popular subcategory as well. That doesn’t mean attractiveness to squid tentacles is on the rise.


False equivalence. I never used attractiveness as a benchmark firstly. Second off the attraction is directed at the woman not the object. You aren't watching a solo masturbation video because you're attracted to the dildo just what the person does with it.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> They don’t have the funding because people don’t watch it, people don’t watch because they are less athletic and less skilled at their craft than male counterparts. If women were better athletes than men, nobody would watch men’s sports, but the fact is they are worse at every major professional sport.


So then this means it was never about equality and fairness no? The women's soccer team payout will never be on the same field as the men's despite them being three time world champions and performing better in their league. Not to mention transwomen perform similarly to biological women. So the equality and fairness thing was never in question anyways.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> No I’m not advocating for women while not supporting women. You’re advocating for trans athletes yet you are not doing your part to support them by watching them on tv. You’re a hypocrite and you’re exploiting them for the sake of an argument.


But you are? If you are advocating for the exclusion of transwomen because it's so called not fair for biological women yet you seem to agree that their pay and whatnot are the results of their percieved shortcomings then why is equality and fairness an issue for you. Also you let me know when you find transwomen competing on TV and it's network. Not to mention the number of transwomen in professional sports is so extremely small anyways they aren't all over the place as people would have you believe.

Anyways here is a tip about throwing the word hypocrisy out there. It is largely irrelevant to my position and is just argumentative diversion in the big scheme of things. Instead of making an issue out of a non issue actually address some of the issues that plague women's sports. The trans agenda isn't toppling women's sports anytime soon. My issue with conservative thinkers on this subject is that they see the so called unfairness in having transwomen compete yet acknowledge and accept the more blatant inequalities that women face in sports.

So no my issue isn't neccesarily people not supporting women's sports. But them actually accepting the current state of womens sports and then unironically chanting how transwomen competing isn't fair to biological women.


Yuji said:


> You don't have to watch every sport to be interested in the integrity of it. That is such a piss poor argument.


What's more piss poor is arguing that the integrity is being breached despite research and studies stating otherwise. So interest in the integrity is pointless because it's already been adressed.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

Many people just find it funny that the hill conservatives want to die on is a hill that they support.


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> False equivalence. I never used attractiveness as a benchmark firstly. Second off the attraction is directed at the woman not the object.


What?

_“Don't speak for all men the trans category in porn is becoming more and more popular. Has it occured to you that men can be attracted to the femininity of transwomen without being attracted to the sexual organ they may possess?”_

You did just that lol


SakuraLover16 said:


> You aren't watching a solo masturbation video because you're attracted to the dildo just what the person does with it.



We’re not talking about solo porn with a dildo, we’re talking about animated porn that features a human having sex with an animal. You just made a false equivalence.



SakuraLover16 said:


> So then this means it was never about equality and fairness no? The women's soccer team payout will never be on the same field as the men's despite them being three time world champions and performing better in their league. Not to mention transwomen perform similarly to biological women. So the equality and fairness thing was never in question anyways.


Men have nothing to do with the conversation of trans women in women sports. Stop trying to bring it up.


SakuraLover16 said:


> But you are? If you are advocating for the exclusion of transwomen because it's so called not fair for biological women yet you seem to agree that their pay and whatnot are the results of their percieved shortcomings then why is equality and fairness an issue for you.


It’s not a perceived shortcoming, it’s real. The greatest woman athlete of all time in any big five sport is not better than majority of substitutes in men’s sport at any time in history. Therefore they are being paid fair for their skill set.


SakuraLover16 said:


> What's more piss poor is arguing that the integrity is being breached despite research and studies stating otherwise. So interest in the integrity is pointless because it's already been adressed.


Just because you have done research in good faith doesn’t mean that your integrity can’t be questioned. You are arguing for trans women’s rights in sports and you don’t even support them yourself.


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## Yuji (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> What's more piss poor is arguing that the integrity is being breached despite research and studies stating otherwise. So interest in the integrity is pointless because it's already been adressed.



Trans athletes really haven't been competing long, but despite that there have been multiple female world records smashed, not just broken, but smashed. How many mens records have been broken by a trans athlete? I'll wait. Coincidence?



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I never said you did, but this person and others decided to use it as a point to detract from the opposing arguments. Now that I flipped it on them you’re calling it a poor argument. Why didn’t you consider it a poor argument when they used it first?



Wasn't referring to you.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Yuji said:


> You don't have to watch every sport to be interested in the integrity of it. That is such a piss poor argument.


Theoretically but if you want to bully minorities to protect a sport you've got no interest in then it at least merits the question.

Do they want to bully minorities to protect a sport they don't care for? Or do they want to protect a sport they don't care for to bully minorities? Considering the deep hostility towards the trans community it wouldn't be odd that for a very high number of people they'd want to ''protect the sport'' primarily to bully trans people. Having people check into their pants kinda already alludes to the fact they want to make things as unpleasant as possible.


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## Pilaf (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I guess you guys just really loved watching men beat up women.



As long as it's consensual it can be fun.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yuji (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Do they want to bully minorities to protect a sport they don't care for? Or do they want to protect a sport they don't care for to bully minorities?




Often used by demagogues or just people without a viable argument, this is your problem.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Theoretically but if you want to bully minorities to protect a sport you've got no interest in then it at least merits the question.
> 
> Do they want to bully minorities to protect a sport they don't care for? Or do they want to protect a sport they don't care for to bully minorities? Considering the deep hostility towards the trans community it wouldn't be odd that for a very high number of people they'd want to ''protect the sport'' primarily to bully trans people. Having people check into their pants kinda already alludes to the fact they want to make things as unpleasant as possible.


What if I have a daughter that misses out on a track scholarship, because a couple of boys wanted to run against her?

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> What if I have A daughter that loses out on a track scholarship, because a couple of boys wanted to run against her?


Assuming trans girls are boys I see. I don't think that's entirely helping your case. If it was just about ''fairness'' you'd likely have phrased it differently.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Assuming trans girls are boys I see. I don't think that's entirely helping your case. If it was just about ''fairness'' you'd likely have phrased it differently.


What is a boy?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> What is a boy?



Boy is whatever you want it to mean these days

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> ​
> Oxford English dictionary
> 
> So yeah Don't give me shit that it's about fear, *some of you hate us and wishes we just didn't exist.  Get over it and stop trying to control us.*


Don't do that. Regardless of what side of the spectrum you are on, you need to have middle ground as a moderator. Otherwise you quell honest and hard discussion based on your favored rage.

Secondly, It's a fact trans people exist. What I don't like, is you or anyone else trying to shove yourselves down people's throats.
So much so, that it disenfranchises others in life, like sports. Women of birthright get disadvantaged. No one is caring about their equal right to pursue happiness.

There are problems that exist in this area and they definitely need to be looked at hard.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Superstars said:


> No one is caring about their equal right to pursue happiness.


Don't go jumping the gun there.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 24, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Boy is whatever you want it to mean these days


I watched a debate on YouTube where people were literally arguing that we should abolish gender, because the definition of man and women is incoherent and vague. When the woman asked the person what his definition was he told her that a men and women are anyone that identify as men or women. That really clears things up.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Don't go jumping the gun there.


You and plenty others in society, who ignore this, have already did that.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I watched a debate on YouTube where people were literally arguing that we should abolish gender, because the definition of man and women is incoherent and vague. When the woman asked the person what his definition was he told her that a men and women are anyone that identify as men or women. That really clears things up.



I'm a gender abolitionist myself tbh but im pretty much neutral on it like i honestly don't give any shits but i think it would be more beneficial for everyone if its not even something people care about. So if i was forced to pick between keeping gender and getting rid of the concept entirely i would get rid of it. Does more harm then good.


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 24, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I'm a gender abolitionist myself tbh but im pretty much neutral on it like i honestly don't give any shits but i think it would be more beneficial for everyone if its not even something people care about. So if i was forced to pick between keeping gender and getting rid of the concept entirely i would get rid of it. Does more harm then good.


Really? I think people definitely care about gender and there’s probably a biological reason for that. I don’t think that’s ever going to change.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Really? I think people definitely care about gender and there’s probably a biological reason for that. I don’t think that’s ever going to change.



People Care about Sex yes i agree.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

i'm alright with this.
madness is to be fought with madness.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Pilaf (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> What is a boy?



A miserable little pile of secrets.


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> I watched a debate on YouTube where people were literally arguing that we should *abolish gender*, because the definition of man and women i*s incoherent and vague*. When the woman asked the person what his definition was he told her* that a men and women are anyone that identify as men or women*. That really clears things up.


Science only matters when it can favor one's agenda. It's all feelings based. The truth's of life, we can see with our eyes, be damned.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 24, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> People Care about Sex yes i agree.


They care about sex and gender. The two are intrinsically linked.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Apr 24, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> A miserable little pile of secrets.


Enough talk! Have at you!

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> What?
> 
> _“Don't speak for all men the trans category in porn is becoming more and more popular. Has it occured to you that men can be attracted to the femininity of transwomen without being attracted to the sexual organ they may possess?”_
> 
> You did just that lol


Feminity and attractiveness aren't the same thing. A feminine women isn't neccesarily an attractive woman and vice versa.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> We’re not talking about solo porn with a dildo, we’re talking about animated porn that features a human having sex with an animal. You just made a false equivalence.


No I didn't. You compared a transwoman to a tentacle instead of to the actual woman (which the transwoman is the most similar to) that the tentacle was likely penetrating. The tentacle in this scenario is closer to the example of the dildo I provided.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Men have nothing to do with the conversation of trans women in women sports. Stop trying to bring it up.


You literally brought them up first in our conversation. I also brought up the difference in pay to prove a point. I brought up again later sooo.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> It’s not a perceived shortcoming, it’s real. The greatest woman athlete of all time in any big five sport is not better than majority of substitutes in men’s sport at any time in history. Therefore they are being paid fair for their skill set.


That isn't based on skill but instead biology. There is on average a 10% difference between elite male and female athletes.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Just because you have done research in good faith doesn’t mean that your integrity can’t be questioned. You are arguing for trans women’s rights in sports and you don’t even support them yourself.


The fact that I did the research in good faith should speak of my integrity or so I would hope. Arguing that someone should have a right to participate in sports doesn't mean I have to be on their journey when they do gain the ability to do so. There are tons of ways to show your support to a cause without being directly involved. I've never enjoyed watching sports and haven't played sports in years. I just want equality to it's best extent possible. I shouldn't be crammed in a really cool tiny house to be supportive of lowering the carbon footprint.


Yuji said:


> Trans athletes really haven't been competing long, but despite that there have been multiple female world records smashed, not just broken, but smashed. How many mens records have been broken by a trans athlete? I'll wait. Coincidence?


Trans athletes have been competing since 2003 or 2004. Up until this point I don't see any reports of world records being broken. There is an article that mentions a handful of new records but no world records as you so state and they have been allowed to compete for over 16 years. I don't think a single transgender person has ever made it on the podium.

Transgender men are hardly reported on because they don't get clicks like transwomen do. What type of outrage do they generate?

There was a trans man who was allowed to compete in the olympics qualifiers but was injured and unable to finish (Race walking is an olympic sport which is news to me).

By the way transmen do perform similarly to biological men as well.


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> By the way transmen do perform similarly to biological men as well.


no they don't.
why you lying?

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Pilaf (Apr 24, 2021)

I worked with a transman last year and this person was routinely unable to lift things required on the job or perform manual labor on the level of the biological guys on-site. Always hurt, always complaining, couldn't open a jar of pickles. Why the fuck y'all lying? Nobody can replace a set of nuts with a monthly shot.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Eros (Apr 24, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> I worked with a transman last year and this person was routinely unable to lift things required on the job or perform manual labor on the level of the biological guys on-site. Always hurt, always complaining, couldn't open a jar of pickles. Why the fuck y'all lying? Nobody can replace a set of nuts with a monthly shot.


All the more reason to take it to the next level. DNA + organ printing. We are not far from making it possible either. Then maybe people will quit bitching.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 24, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> Excellent news if true.  Looks like the deal is dead (At least for now)


We have to wait 6 more days.


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## Breadman (Apr 24, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> i'm alright with this.
> madness is to be fought with madness.

Reactions: Agree 4 | Dislike 1


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## Yuji (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Up until this point I don't see any reports of world records being broken.



Try again, cycling records have been broken, power lifting records, skulls have been fractured in MMA, national hurdling records were broken.

Male equivalent? Where? I'm still waiting.



SakuraLover16 said:


> Transgender men are hardly reported on because they don't get clicks like transwomen do. What type of outrage do they generate?



Is that your way of saying you have zero evidence of the opposite happening? I think it is.



SakuraLover16 said:


> By the way transmen do perform similarly to biological men as well.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Superstars said:


> You and plenty others in society, who ignore this, have already did that.


Not really. We just think your ''benchmark'' hits the bar really low.


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

Breadman said:


>

Reactions: Like 1


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Not really. We just think your ''benchmark'' hits the bar really low.


You set it. It's your low standard. Having birthright females, isolated by your wave of hasty and forceful suppression.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

i'm honestly baffled, we've jumped the shark and gotten so much hang time that we aren't even addressing the first problem.
why are teenagers being started on hormone therapy for gender transition?
it's a madness.
whatever follows will be just as mad lads.
the teachers are gonna have to look to verify child teen punani or pen0rz? yeah, that's less mad than the first problem. mad still, but less mad by at least a whole order of magnitude.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Superstars said:


> You set it. It's your low standard. Having birthright females, isolated by your wave of hasty and forceful suppression.


     

What if those that don't want to oppress minorities are the TRUE oppressors!


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> What if those that don't want to oppress minorities are the TRUE oppressors!


The crazy left was just talking about how females were being marginalized and discriminated against. Yet are apart of that same biological prejudice, trying to appease their vote agenda.

That's called backfire.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Superstars said:


> The crazy left was just talking about how females were being marginalized and discriminated against. Yet are apart of that same biological prejudice, trying to appease their vote agenda.


Trans rights aren't really a ''vote agenda''. If anything its something that loses your vote. It something you support because you think its the right thing to do, not because its particularly useful to you personally. 

Trans people are about 0,0,0,0% of the population. Even the people who despise their existence significantly dwarf their numbers. If its a vote agenda then opposing trans rights is the way to go.


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## Toph (Apr 24, 2021)

Right-wingers: "Trans people shouldn't be allowed in their appropriate bathrooms because they might potentially prey upon children and sexually assault them!"

Also right-wingers: "You want to compete, kid? Pull down those pants first."

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Trans rights aren't really a ''vote agenda''. If anything its something that loses your vote. It something you support because you think its the right thing to do, not because its particularly useful to you personally.
> 
> Trans people are about 0,0,0,0% of the population. Even the people who despise their existence significantly dwarf their numbers. If its a vote agenda then opposing trans rights is the way to go.


It's a proven vote agenda by the left, since their hypocrisy is on display, trying to pretend to care about women's rights, while trashing those very rights, with identity politics.

It backfired and needs to be revisited.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Superstars said:


> It's a proven vote agenda by the left, since their hypocrisy is on display, trying to pretend to care about women's rights, while trashing those very rights, with identity politics.


Even if we were to assume that rights are a zero sum thing(which the left typically doesn't) then its still not a ''vote agenda'' which would require to...ya know, actually get votes out of it. 

Wanting to oppress gays to gain the evangelical vote is a vote agenda. Wanting to not oppress the gays because the public is now more accepting of them is also a vote agenda. These days you're likely to lose more votes with homophobia than gain ones. But with transphobia that isn't the case yet.


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## Breadman (Apr 24, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> i'm honestly baffled, we've jumped the shark and gotten so much hang time that we aren't even addressing the first problem.
> why are teenagers being started on hormone therapy for gender transition?
> it's a madness.
> whatever follows will be just as mad lads.
> the teachers are gonna have to look to verify child teen punani or pen0rz? yeah, that's less mad than the first problem. mad still, but less mad by at least a whole order of magnitude.



I mean, I don't even know what to really say about the hormone therapy and that shit, but I think there's a large difference between a family coming to an agreement for gender transition consensually and then a teacher forcing a child to spread 'em.  

Seriously, I thought the party that is always going "Think of the children" would be against this, not pulling the "an eye for an eye" excuse.


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

Breadman said:


> I mean, I don't even know what to really say about the hormone therapy and that shit, but I think there's a large difference between a family coming to an agreement for gender transition consensually and then a teacher forcing a child to spread 'em.
> 
> Seriously, I thought the party that is always going "Think of the children" would be against this, not pulling the "an eye for an eye" excuse.


those are some really bad parents you're referencing, they probably need to have their kids taken away from them.
and as said earlier, madness is to be fought with madness. no one wants this but this is the result of adding this trans thing into the mix when it has no business being in the mix. the mix being high school students.

Reactions: Sad! 1


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Even if we were to assume that rights are a zero sum thing(which the left typically doesn't) then its still not a ''vote agenda'' which would require to...ya know, actually get votes out of it.
> 
> Wanting to oppress gays to gain the evangelical vote is a vote agenda. Wanting to not oppress the gays because the public is now more accepting of them is also a vote agenda. These days you're likely to lose more votes with homophobia than gain ones. But with transphobia that isn't the case yet.


You just don't get it. It's called a future setup by the left. Hence why kids are indoctrinated in schools about this topic. They are even having young kids being forced [not knowing the full facts and having made a well informed decision] to undergo surgery for this. This increases the population and the bidding for their votes begins now. Joe Biden got an overwhelmingly majority vote from this group and they plan to get more since every vote counts. No matter how tiny.

Too bad, as usual the crazy left are being hypocrites doing it.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Eros (Apr 24, 2021)

Historia said:


> Right-wingers: "Trans people shouldn't be allowed in their appropriate bathrooms because they might potentially prey upon children and sexually assault them!"
> 
> Also right-wingers: "You want to compete, kid? Pull down those pants first."


Which is exactly why giving them the ability to change their DNA will change everything. If a trans woman is now a woman and a trans man is a man on a genetic level, then we can finally arrive at a point in which they are people who had surgery to correct a psychological disorder, and we can stop worrying about where they take a piss or whether or not they play football or soccer. It's no longer any of our fucking business anymore. The procedure fixes the problem, and we no longer need to concern ourselves with it anymore. It would be like a kidney transplant. If done at an early age, it can be a secret, and nobody needs to know. It's privileged medical information. See, this is the future for trans people. Maybe it scares the zealots, but I find it comforting. Plus, I think people should consider how much fucking money is going to be generated. It's going to be a fucking mint. Glorious!


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

Shinra Kusakabe said:


> Which is exactly why giving them the ability to change their DNA will change everything. If a trans woman is now a woman and a trans man is a man on a genetic level, then we can finally arrive at a point in which they are people who had surgery to correct a psychological disorder, and we can stop worrying about where they take a piss or whether or not they play football or soccer. It's no longer any of our fucking business anymore. The procedure fixes the problem, and we no longer need to concern ourselves with it anymore. It would be like a kidney transplant. If done at an early age, it can be a secret, and nobody needs to know. It's privileged medical information. See, this is the future for trans people. Maybe it scares the zealots, but I find it comforting. Plus, I think people should consider how much fucking money is going to be generated. It's going to be a fucking mint. Glorious!


i guess we'll be expected to be sorry when the cancer rate explodes in response to this, right?
i won't be sorry :/

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That isn't based on skill but instead biology. There is on average a 10% difference between elite male and female athletes.


This is so damn erroneous that I can’t continue this conversation in good faith.

Take the greatest team of women you can build in any big5 sport (football, basketball, soccer, hockey, baseball), and take the worst team you can make of any men of the same sport and the women wouldn’t even advance the ball, puck, etc. If it’s a contact sport the entire women’s team would be crippled before halftime.

We just seen the gold medal women’s soccer team get decimated by some random high school’s junior varsity team. If you don’t follow trans women in sports, fine. But if you don’t know shit about sports outside of manufactured analytics that only exist to appease to your views, then stop talking.

Edit: the women’s gold medal team lost to a boys middle school team

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 24, 2021)

Superstars said:


> You just don't get it. It's called a future setup by the left. Hence why kids are indoctrinated in schools about this topic. They are even having young kids being forced [not knowing the full facts and having made a well informed decision] to undergo surgery for this. This increases the population and the bidding for their votes begins now. Joe Biden got an overwhelmingly majority vote from this group and they plan to get more since every vote counts. No matter how tiny.
> 
> Too bad, as usual the crazy left are being hypocrites doing it.


Talk about conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories that is contradictory with itself. 

If every vote counts then losing a ton of votes to help 0,00,0,0,1% of people in the hopes they'll vote for the Democrats isn't a good strategy. Even if they can um....''force'' enough people to be trans to make them  0,00,0,0,2% of the population then its still a negligible number of the population.


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## Jim (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Talk about conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories that is contradictory with itself.
> 
> If every vote counts then losing a ton of votes to help 0,00,0,0,1% of people in the hopes they'll vote for the Democrats isn't a good strategy. Even if they can um....''force'' enough people to be trans to make them  0,00,0,0,2% of the population then its still a negligible number of the population.


I think he means the evil dems are going to force all children through the dem indoctrinated education to become trans which forces you to vote democrat.


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## Superstars (Apr 24, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Talk about conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theories that is contradictory with itself.
> 
> If every vote counts then losing a ton of votes to help 0,00,0,0,1% of people in the hopes they'll vote for the Democrats isn't a good strategy. Even if they can um....''force'' enough people to be trans to make them  0,00,0,0,2% of the population then its still a negligible number of the population.


As usual, you missed the point...



> LGBTQ Nondiscrimination Protections
> *More than three in four Americans (76%) favor laws that would protect lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans from discrimination in jobs, housing, and public accommodation.* Less than one in five Americans (19%) oppose nondiscrimination protections for LGBT Americans. Around one-third of Americans _strongly_ favor nondiscrimination protections (34%), compared to less than one in ten who _strongly_ oppose them (6%).




You are too blind and deluded to see how the left is virtue signaling, not just for the LGBTQ vote [and it's future votes with children indoctrination in schools] but those who also support it [majority of Americans]. All for the purpose of snatching those outside votes too. Like I said tho, this hypocrisy is backfiring, since now people are realizing, this hurts biological women in sports.


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## Eros (Apr 24, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> i guess we'll be expected to be sorry when the cancer rate explodes in response to this, right?
> i won't be sorry :/


Because you really don't give a darn about advancing medicine and probably still think a female circumcision is a normal medical procedure.


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## Breadman (Apr 24, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> those are some really bad parents you're referencing, they probably need to have their kids taken away from them.
> *and as said earlier, madness is to be fought with madness*. no one wants this but this is the result of adding this trans thing into the mix when it has no business being in the mix. the mix being high school students.



Wtf, no it's not the only people who say that are petty self-righteous twats who want an excuse to get away with the behaviour they lecture other people about having. You don't fight trans issues by becoming borderline pedophiles, what brain damaged logic is this?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

Shinra Kusakabe said:


> Because you really don't give a darn about advancing medicine and probably still think a female circumcision is a normal medical procedure.


because advocating for bad medical practices in some thinly veiled attempt at humanity is inhumane.
that's what you lot are doing by being on board with this stuff, and i'm sure you'll be feeling sorry for victims of the process later who will wonder why anyone let them do that to themselves.
it would be like feeling sorry for a chronic smoker when they get lung cancer when every cigarette box has the clear as day warning of "smoking cases cancer."
well transitioning with the uncommon gene therapy tech will probably lead to interesting types of cancer too, i'm not obligated to feel sorry when the obvious shit hits the fan, life is hard enough as it is to suffer fools.



Breadman said:


> Wtf, no it's not the only people who say that are petty self-righteous twats who want an excuse to get away with the behaviour they lecture other people about having. You don't fight trans issues by becoming borderline pedophiles, what brain damaged logic is this?


madness is to be fought with madness, this phrase will age well.
whatever emerges from this (pedo's, rape cases, castrations) is on you lot for opening the can of worms to begin with.
everyone else wanted it closed and not up for consideration, you lot wanted it open because "there's no harm in it" as everyone said.
well here's the harm, there are the interests of regular people to consider who vastly outweigh the minority of the high school tranny who still wants to do sports as a newly minted faux-female.

i didn't want this, you guys did.
i was called the bad man for saying the base idea is incorrect, if the foundation is sideways then whatever is built on top will be just as sideways.
you lot are making this happen, not me.
me? the traditionalist? wanting teenagers partaking in hormone therapy for gender transition? why would i have wanted any of this or it's responses?
this is on you lot.
so what are you gonna do about it? talk to me about it? what power do i have to shift paradigms?
logically some type of gender check that is low cost will have to be performed if we are to have tranny's in the high schools, you see?
i didn't make this situation, you guys did.
fix it.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 24, 2021)

I bet this whole thing would die down some if people would just be cool. 

If conservatives can agree to live and let live will allies agree to stop trying to restructure language and society into this secular pantheism of identity?

Reactions: Optimistic 3


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> This is so damn erroneous that I can’t continue this conversation in good faith.
> 
> Take the greatest team of women you can build in any big5 sport (football, basketball, soccer, hockey, baseball), and take the worst team you can make of any men of the same sport and the women wouldn’t even advance the ball, puck, etc. If it’s a contact sport the entire women’s team would be crippled before halftime.
> 
> ...



Thats embarrassing  

Imagine honing your skills for 10+ years only to get shit on by a bunch of 13 year olds

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 24, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Thats embarrassing
> 
> Imagine honing your skills for 10+ years only to get shit on by a bunch of 13 year olds



I don't disagree with kisame but to be fair I _think_ it was a friendly game. 

This wasn't like a serious competition, they were playing around.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 24, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> I don't disagree with kisame but to be fair I _think_ it was a friendly game.
> 
> This wasn't like a serious competition, they were playing around.



For the womens sake i hope so.


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## Pilaf (Apr 24, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> I don't disagree with kisame but to be fair I _think_ it was a friendly game.
> 
> This wasn't like a serious competition, they were playing around.



Yeah...


Playing around.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> no they don't.
> why you lying?


Yes they do try again.




> Transgender vs. cisgender men​Transgender men performed fewer push-ups compared with cisgender men prior to testosterone (mean difference, –16.1 push-ups; 95% CI, –20.3 to –12), but the difference disappeared 1 year after the testosterone began. Transgender men and cisgender men performed similarly in sit-ups prior to testosterone, and transgender men exceeded cisgender men after 1 year of testosterone (mean difference, 5.7 sit-ups; 95% CI, 1.7-9.8). The transgender group was also slower than the cisgender cohort in the 1.5-mile run at baseline (mean difference, 131 seconds; 95% CI, 83-178), but the difference disappeared 1 year after starting testosterone.


Post your study don't be shy.


Pilaf said:


> I worked with a transman last year and this person was routinely unable to lift things required on the job or perform manual labor on the level of the biological guys on-site. Always hurt, always complaining, couldn't open a jar of pickles. Why the fuck y'all lying? Nobody can replace a set of nuts with a monthly shot.


Is this based off of anything but your own anecdote? Your set of nuts is easily replaced with hormone therapy. Which are available in pills and taken daily.


Yuji said:


> Try again, cycling records have been broken,


Post it. The one that I see in question deals with Rachel Mckinnon so that must be what you are referring to correct? Are you aware that one of the women who complained regularly raced and out of the 13 competitions they have raced in she beat Mckinnon 11 of those times. That surely reeks of an unfair advantage doesn't it?


Yuji said:


> skulls have been fractured in MMA,


The woman's skull that you are referring to was not fractured her orbital socket was and it happens to be a common injury in MMA. The transwoman who did that was beaten by a different competitor later on.


Yuji said:


> national hurdling records were broken.


The only story I see about that is on CeeCee Teller who has undergone hormone replacement therapy for a year before going back to compete mind you she also had sex reassignment surgery during that time she had the finishing time of  57.53 while the next competitor had the time of 59.21 meaning that the difference in speed was less that 3% between the two. Not the unfair advantage I heard about either.


Yuji said:


> Is that your way of saying you have zero evidence of the opposite happening? I think it is.


No it isn't. Chris Mosier was an olympic qualifier.


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## Capt. Autismo (Apr 24, 2021)

Obviously nobody here has seen She's The Man, the movie that proved women are just as good as guys in sports.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kisame3rd14 (Apr 24, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> I don't disagree with kisame but to be fair I _think_ it was a friendly game.


It was alleged to be a warm up game, that doesn’t change the fact that no middle school team in the world would score a point on a mls level soccer team, let alone the damn Olympic squad.


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> This is so damn erroneous that I can’t continue this conversation in good faith.
> 
> Take the greatest team of women you can build in any big5 sport (football, basketball, soccer, hockey, baseball), and take the worst team you can make of any men of the same sport and the women wouldn’t even advance the ball, puck, etc. If it’s a contact sport the entire women’s team would be crippled before halftime.
> 
> ...


you remember that fiasco? the australian womens international football team losing to some random ass high school u14's team in a friendly?
and they wanna be @'ing us trying to educate people on the nu-age biology and somehow every sensible friend is supposed to just shut up and accept the brave nu world.
i can't do it anymore man, i'm triggered to shit.


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## aiyanah (Apr 24, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yes they do try again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh
i see
you're one of those who only does the sports outlook in one direction. and your link proves what the rest of us are saying, that it isn't fair for male to female trans people to be competing against women. we been saying that, the detractors of this trans revolution have been saying that for YEARS.

so DO ME A FAVOR, cause you seem to want to do the research yeah.
go find me a female to male transition who is excelling at "sports." that is someone who started life as a grrl and wanted to be a boi and actually followed through on it.
you can get creative with it, you can dig into esports, pool, darts, body building, motorsports, bowling, bowls, anything you want, literally anything you want.
go find me a female to male transition where that trans person is able to compete with the men in a "sport" and i'll drop all arguments about this topic.

I'LL WAIT. PATIENTLY.
i'll wait 20 years for you to find me an example before i forget about this. never say i ain't fair, you could even go and make a proto alex morgan, transition that kid at 4 years old, and tell me what the results are.
i'll wait.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Breadman (Apr 24, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> madness is to be fought with madness, this phrase will age well.
> *whatever emerges from this (pedo's, rape cases, castrations) is on you lot for opening the can of worms to begin with.*
> everyone else wanted it closed and not up for consideration, you lot wanted it open because "there's no harm in it" as everyone said.
> well here's the harm, there are the interests of regular people to consider who vastly outweigh the minority of the high school tranny who still wants to do sports as a newly minted faux-female.
> ...



I... I can't believe what I'm fucking reading here. Whatever happened to the grand preachings of personal accountability? It shouldn't be on the families and literal children for a teacher or adult to keep their fucking hands to theirselves. Do you know how fucking insane you sound right now? 

"I'm sorry officer, I couldn't keep my hands off of her, the liberals made me do it!" lmao, get the hell outta here.

Reactions: Winner 7


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 24, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> This is so damn erroneous that I can’t continue this conversation in good faith.
> 
> Take the greatest team of women you can build in any big5 sport (football, basketball, soccer, hockey, baseball), and take the worst team you can make of any men of the same sport and the women wouldn’t even advance the ball, puck, etc. If it’s a contact sport the entire women’s team would be crippled before halftime.


The average is literally a 10% difference between the two this is something widely known and confirmable. Also do you have the evidence to back up this claim I'm interested in seeing it. Men will always have an edge in sports that require explosive power and strength. Also a 10% difference doesn't apply to all parameters.

Actually upon further research that 10% figure accounts for the overall performance across many sports and not just football and soccer 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> We just seen the gold medal women’s soccer team get decimated by some random high school’s junior varsity team. If you don’t follow trans women in sports, fine. But if you don’t know shit about sports outside of manufactured analytics that only exist to appease to your views, then stop talking.


You can't stand for facts and logic but then take part in anti intellectualism because the data doesn't support what you are saying. Nothing I say will convince you if not even data will.

Also this match that you mentioned is heavily decontexualized.


> But this article went on to describe the event as part of  undertaken primarily for the benefit and development of the boys’ team:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know why people think that the women's team went tryhard when they are trying to teach the children.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 25, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> oh
> i see
> you're one of those who only does the sports outlook in one direction. and your link proves what the rest of us are saying, that it isn't fair for male to female trans people to be competing against women. we been saying that, the detractors of this trans revolution have been saying that for YEARS


Why would I give you something I haven't read? I've used that study before and know what the data states. You're just basing it off the title without looking at the data that was compiled also that is someone else giving their opinion on it. In that article there is a table that compares the performance of transwomen and biological women. 

Before transition in a 1 minute push up test transwomen performed 31% more push ups than biological women. After two years the data shows that the same transwomen possessed no advantage.

The next set of data shows that before transition during a 1 minute sit up test that transwomen performed 15% better after two years they had no advantage.

Finally what you are unknowingly citing is the speed aspect in which before transwomen performed 21% better that number then dropped to 12% after two years.

Maybe you should you know not make light of me.


aiyanah said:


> so DO ME A FAVOR, cause you seem to want to do the research yeah.
> go find me a female to male transition who is excelling at "sports." that is someone who started life as a grrl and wanted to be a boi and actually followed through on it.
> you can get creative with it, you can dig into esports, pool, darts, body building, motorsports, bowling, bowls, anything you want, literally anything you want.
> go find me a female to male transition where that trans person is able to compete with the men in a "sport" and i'll drop all arguments about this topic


How about you do me a favor and refute the rebuttal I provided to you on your record breaking wins. Those women are just eating up the competition aren't they. Being 3% faster, losing 11 out of 13 times to a bio woman, losing a mma fight to a bio woman and falsely accused of fracturing a body part that requires 1,100 pounds a force at a minimum at the weakest point to be accomplished. Yes those biowomen stood no chance at all and were completely and utterly dominated


aiyanah said:


> I'LL WAIT. PATIENTLY.
> i'll wait 20 years for you to find me an example before i forget about this. never say i ain't fair, you could even go and make a proto alex morgan, transition that kid at 4 years old, and tell me what the results are.
> i'll wait.


Schuyler Bailar​


> Bailar was originally recruited in 2013 as a member of the women's team by Harvard Women’s Swimming and Diving head coach Stephanie Morawski. After transitioning during a gap year, Bailar was also offered a spot on the men’s team by coach Tyrrell, allowing Bailar the choice of either team. He elected to swim on the men’s team.


Transitioned in 2015


> In 2019, Bailar completed his college career posting the "third fastest" time for 100-yard-breaststroke for the Harvard team in the 2018-2019 season and won his third Ivy-League Championship ring as part of the Crimson's highest ranked team since the1960/1961 season - 8th at the 2019 NCAA Championships. Although Bailar began his college swimming career with low expectations, his final 100-yard breaststroke time ranked him in the top 15% of all  swims for the season and in the top 34% of all NCAA Division 1 swims for the season.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jim (Apr 25, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Why would I give you something I haven't read? I've used that study before and know what the data states. You're just basing it off the title without looking at the data that was compiled also that is someone else giving their opinion on it. In that article there is a table that compares the performance of transwomen and biological women.
> 
> Before transition in a 1 minute push up test transwomen performed 31% more push ups than biological women. After two years the data shows that the same transwomen possessed no advantage.
> 
> ...


not sure why you're bothering with this when you know how he'll reply.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Pilaf (Apr 25, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yes they do try again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gitagon (Apr 25, 2021)

I really have to ask, in terms of these performance "statistics" and "studies" if you could even call them that, has anyone actually used a sample size of men and women with the same build?

Like I see a lot of these stuff use men who are bigger with the women looking like they are a step away from being models. It's very hard to find women sportswomen with something like Serena's build and even then she's pretty short and most male players are still bigger than her.

So I mean a study where the male and female sportspeople are equal in build especially height and musculature. 

Cause I'm always seeing people comparing bigger guys with smaller women.


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## aiyanah (Apr 25, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Why would I give you something I haven't read? I've used that study before and know what the data states. You're just basing it off the title without looking at the data that was compiled also that is someone else giving their opinion on it. In that article there is a table that compares the performance of transwomen and biological women.
> 
> Before transition in a 1 minute push up test transwomen performed 31% more push ups than biological women. After two years the data shows that the same transwomen possessed no advantage.
> 
> ...


i said men, ncaa is bois. that's why its amateur lvl.
it's impressive, but not to required spec.
19 years, 364 days remain.


Jim said:


> not sure why you're bothering with this when you know how he'll reply.


have to respond to verify dear jim.
heaven's forbid someone tries to pass off a vanity project as something legitimate.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 25, 2021)

Jim said:


> not sure why you're bothering with this when you know how he'll reply.


I know. Honestly it's pretty pointless this may be my last reply to them.
Nice rebuttal unfortunately it's not a refutation of the study or points I've made.


Gitagon said:


> I really have to ask, in terms of these performance "statistics" and "studies" if you could even call them that, has anyone actually used a sample size of men and women with the same build?


Well they are statistics and studies they can't be characterized as anything else. As far as using people with the same build men and women come in all different types of builds. The study I last used had average people coming for basic army training if I recall correctly.


Gitagon said:


> Like I see a lot of these stuff use men who are bigger with the women looking like they are a step away from being models. It's very hard to find women sportswomen with something like Serena's build and even then she's pretty short and most male players are still bigger than her.


That deals with hormones and whatnot. Women can't build muscle the same way men can because of it. Plus most athletes look like models being incredibly toned. I think the point is that average people don't usually participate in professional level competitions


Gitagon said:


> So I mean a study where the male and female sportspeople are equal in build especially height and musculature.


No one goes into a race where all of the people have the same body type and musculature. In sports there will always be people who compete that have different heights and weights and limb length. It's why sports can never truly be equal.



Gitagon said:


> Cause I'm always seeing people comparing bigger guys with smaller women.


Can you be more specific or provide an example. 


aiyanah said:


> i said men, ncaa is bois. that's why its amateur lvl.
> it's impressive, but not to required spec.
> 19 years, 364 days remain.


That guy is approximately 24 years old definitely not a boy.

Unfortunately I have no interest because that's not what you asked me to find you said.



aiyanah said:


> so DO ME A FAVOR, cause you seem to want to do the research yeah.
> go find me a female to male transition who is excelling at "sports." that is someone who started life as a grrl and wanted to be a boi and actually followed through on it.





aiyanah said:


> you can get creative with it, you can dig into esports, pool, darts, body building, motorsports, bowling, bowls, anything you want, literally anything you want.
> go find me a female to male transition where that trans person is able to compete with the men in a "sport" and i'll drop all arguments about this topic.


Your criteria was a trans man who was able to compete with the men in a sport. Which I have provided.


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## aiyanah (Apr 25, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I know. Honestly it's pretty pointless this may be my last reply to them.
> 
> Nice rebuttal unfortunately it's not a refutation of the study or points I've made.
> 
> ...


like i said, "i said MEN."
NCAA ain't men, most of those don's can't even buy a beer legally.
try again, the clock ticks.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 25, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> like i said, "i said MEN."
> NCAA ain't men, most of those don's can't even buy a beer legally.
> try again, the clock ticks.


So when has 18 and up not been considered an adult? Goal post shift I see. "Prove me wrong... No! Not like that."

Again Chris Mosier

Transitioned in 2010


> Mosier made Team USA for the first time in sprint duathlon in 2015. He made the long course duathlon team in 2016 at a race in Cary, North Carolina. He secured his place on his third Team USA team in sprint triathlon at the Draft Legal Triathlon World Championship Qualifier race, where he placed third in his age group.
> 
> Mosier made his fourth Team USA team in long course duathlon in the 2017 National Championship, where he placed 2nd in his age group.
> 
> ...


There is another promising newcomer on the rise too who I at least hope to hear great things about.


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## Superstars (Apr 25, 2021)

> "A dispute regarding a student's sex shall be resolved by the student's school or institution by requesting that the student provide a health examination and consent form or other statement signed by the student's personal health care provider which must verify the student's biological sex,” says the bill, which provides for “routine sports physical examination” of students’ reproductive organs, genetic makeup or testosterone levels.



Nothing wrong with having physical examinations by medical professionals. This is normal.

OH MUH FAUCCI!! DEY GONNA TOUCH KIDZ! PERVERTSSSSSS!!!1111

Again it's you radical leftist just trying to win an Oscar/Emmy with the usual victim role playing.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 25, 2021)

Breadman said:


> I... I can't believe what I'm fucking reading here. Whatever happened to the grand preachings of personal accountability? It shouldn't be on the families and literal children for a teacher or adult to keep their fucking hands to theirselves. Do you know how fucking insane you sound right now?
> 
> "I'm sorry officer, I couldn't keep my hands off of her, the liberals made me do it!" lmao, get the hell outta here.


Inside of every conservative there's two wolves and sometimes one of them rapes the other.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Breadman (Apr 25, 2021)

Superstars said:


> Nothing wrong with having physical examinations by medical professionals. This is normal.
> 
> OH MUH FAUCCI!! DEY GONNA TOUCH KIDZ! PERVERTSSSSSS!!!1111
> 
> Again it's you radical leftist just trying to win an Oscar/Emmy with the usual victim role playing.



Hey mang, I'm not the one who is obsessed with kiddy genitals.


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## Eros (Apr 26, 2021)

Breadman said:


> Hey mang, I'm not the one who is obsessed with kiddy genitals.


I don't even like seeing them. I mean, I can change a diaper or bathe a kid if needed, but I don't check out their junk.


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## Yami Munesanzun (Apr 28, 2021)

>School Coaches and Teachers

>Medical Proffessionals

Yeah, no.


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## Subarashii (Apr 28, 2021)

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV


Subarashii said:


> So now you care about women?  You do know transwomen are women, right?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Kisame3rd14 said:


> This is so damn erroneous that I can’t continue this conversation in good faith.
> 
> Take the greatest team of women you can build in any big5 sport (football, basketball, soccer, hockey, baseball), and take the worst team you can make of any men of the same sport and the women wouldn’t even advance the ball, puck, etc. If it’s a contact sport the entire women’s team would be crippled before halftime.
> 
> ...





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Thats embarrassing
> 
> Imagine honing your skills for 10+ years only to get shit on by a bunch of 13 year olds





reiatsuflow said:


> I don't disagree with kisame but to be fair I _think_ it was a friendly game.
> 
> This wasn't like a serious competition, they were playing around.


None of you read my post on the Aussie team

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Superstars said:


> They are even having young kids being forced [not knowing the full facts and having made a well informed decision] to undergo surgery for this.



Yeah, do you have proof of this? Trans kids don't get surgeries. Most doctors and medical bodies follow the standard of care outlined by WPATH, you can read about it . Which contradicts everything in this one sentence. (exception being masectomies, which are only given after a year of hormone and persistence on trans identity. Important to note, cis minors are able to get reductions or masectomies as well, if it causes distress from bullying or back problems)

This also outlines standards of care for kids, which is all assessments on persistence, and *competence.* Why competence? Because they need a level of competance comparative to an adult to be able to properly assess the ramifications of proceeding with any sort of intervention. In the UK, this is referred to Gillick competency.

Granted, WPATH is full of gatekeeping bullshit and is several years out of date. Studies done by quacks and dubious methodology from those same studies (they reference a study based on desistance rates of children, but GD was diagnosed so differently at that time to include almost all non conforming children). Frank Zucker and his cohorts are referenced a lot and he took part in conversion therapy. 

--

Again, another fucking stupid transphobic thread from a bunch of people that know absolutely fucking nothing.

Comparing *cis men* and *cis women* in terms of biological advantages/disadvantages is talking about something completely different. The point of comparison is between *trans and cis *atheletes. Every person saying "cis men have advantages over cis women, so *trans women* shouldn't be allowed to compete against women" should immediately eject themselves from this thread as both points are completely fucking seperate. Y'all might as well be saying "oh yeah oranges don't taste like apples, so grapes must taste like apples" cause it's so fucking non sense. Trans women aren't men.

Trans women in pro sports require certain T levels for a few years. They aren't demolishing records, nearly all news stories saying this are actually misrepresenting it in specific ways. That one trans biker won a champion race, but _didn't claim any record, and also has tons of recorded losses against her competition. _

Trans people make up nearly 1% of the pop, so "_trans people should compete against other trans people" _is fucking dumb. Who is a trans kid in Florida going to compete with in their school? Like one other person atleast? Jesus christ. Trans women shouldn't even compete against men, since the lack of testosterone makes us much much weaker. Speaking of which, trans girls going on blockers at an early age actually prevent any sort of "male development" so theoretically, they should be able to compete, right? Wait, what do you mean they're trying to make that illegal?

Every trans adult was a trans kid, preventing that is horrific and everyone trying to shit on that should be absolutely ashamed and called out for it. I have no qualms in calling it for what it is, transphobia. There's no good reason to prevent trans kids from their health care, regardless of what that looks like. (granted if it's not conversion therapy however)

Nevermind that there's been so little literature on trans athletes. The one study about it was written by a self proclaimed transphobe/TERF and has tons of misrepresentations borrowed from other journals/studies. The video and source talking about this study was pointed out on the . Everytime I see someone talking about bone density makes my eyes roll, when prescribed HRT, we're told of the risks of osteoporosis, and what kind of advantage does bone density offer? lmao Bones being sturdier and heavier while the muscles and organs get less strength over the course of HRT, yeah totally an advantage. An actual advantage trans women who transition later in life have is (typically) height over cis women, which is an advantage in many sports. Height is not a reasonable reason to exclude trans women athletes as cis women can be just as tall. A large portion of women athletes are taller than average, and trans women are a very small population, there's not really a threat here. Any study that doesn't account for height AND muscle AND fat is one to be suspicious of.



Yuji said:


> Try again, cycling records have been broken, power lifting records, skulls have been fractured in MMA, national hurdling records were broken.



You have ANY SOURCE? And lmao, a skull fracture is a few of the most common injuries in MMA, might as well be saying that people get hurt while playing sports. People beat on that drum because they like to paint trans women as strong killing machines against cis women.



Yuji said:


> Is that your way of saying you have zero evidence of the opposite happening? I think it is.




Trans women get painted as deviants because bigots think they're deviant men. Which have always been painted as perverts who want easier access to places to rape or fuck over women and/or children. Trans men are treated by bigots as butch women who lost their way (kinda misogynistic), so they aren't a focus of outrage, but rather, of pity and sympathy. The same thing said about trans women were said about black men in america near the end of segregation, and the same of homosexual men. Lesbians were fetishized, and glossed over for the most part.

This is the reason why trans women specifically are the subject of outrage over trans men. Trans women get overexposure in the media, trans men are essentially invisible.

You're very much showing how absolutely little you know about this topic at hand. This is cursory knowledge for people who are even somewhat involved with this shit. Even JK Rowling touched on this with her transphobic letter. Claiming that she could have be a _gasp_ a trans man if she was raised in the current times. _How horrible!!!! _



Pilaf said:


> I worked with a transman last year and this person was routinely unable to lift things required on the job or perform manual labor on the level of the biological guys on-site. Always hurt, always complaining, couldn't open a jar of pickles. Why the fuck y'all lying? Nobody can replace a set of nuts with a monthly shot.



Great story dude, how much do you know about this trans dude? Was he on hormones? For how long? Did he do any sort of work out? And not every man is able to lift shit, I know I wasn't able to lift jack shit before I transitioned.
---

These laws/bills against trans kids and trans folk are not means to protect women or kids. They're to ostracize trans people, dehumanize us, other us. A trans kid who wants to play a fucking sport with their friends of their same gender in school is no longer going to be able to, they're not going to want to play sports at all because of it. They're not going to feel part of society, of their group, they're going to feel and be bullied and hurt. Being excluded for the most basic of shit based on an identity that's out of your control is so incredibly damaging, and a pain I don't wish for anyone. They don't give a shit about kids, they want to try and pass genital inspections to be able to inspect _kids _to see if they're trans or not, that's RIFE for abuse. They prevented trans kids from getting ANY supportive therapy in that other state, as well as any medical intervention. Fucking therapy. We're a boogeyman, it's fucking bullshit.

Speaking of which, why do we ever fucking trust any groups that claim to be protecting one or a few group(s) of people to bludgeon the rights of a minority? When has that ever held water in history? As far as I could think of, it's never held water.

The problem with these inspections too: It prevents the person accused from playing the game. Regardless if it's true or not. These checks take time, and it's going to be abused by militant sports ball parents.

I'd feel even slightly different if they was a basis for all the hate and fear mongering. The problem is there isn't any actual basis to it. People like to harp on facts and feelings, but immediately it's about how trans people digust them, how terrified they are of trans people, or how trans kids are appalling. Damn bitch, got any sourcing for it that isn't a hate mongerer jacking off to how much they want to fuck over trans people?

For the record, I went from outright rejecting the idea of trans kids and trans women athletes to accepting it. Some of my first few trans related posts on this dumb forum was me saying trans kids make me feel uncomfortable. But there wasn't any compelling evidence for the rejection, and for athletes, there's almost no literature on it. Medical bodies and sports bodies are going to know more about this stuff than any member of the government, so why the fuck are we listening to legislators and hate groups writing up these bills over the residing professional bodies that actually deal with this shit? Oh I know why, it's because it confirms the bias of bigots.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 30, 2021)

Texas seems to outdo Florida in the oppression of trans people. 

Florida wants to have adult people look into the pants of trans children. Texas was to jail the parents of trans children for being accepting of their children. If steps towards gender affirmation are taken parents could be jailed or have their children taken away from them.

That's kinda grotesque isn't it? I'm not one to cry ''genocide!'' even at very oppressive bills regarding trans people but here it seems fitting. It seems like the strongest possible way to strong arm children in just not coming out. Don't come out kids or we're coming to put your parents in jail! And parents don't you dare accept your children or we're going to target _you_!

Cruelty seems very much the point in this case. Even if the bill won't be enforced it still puts trans people in a situation where they have to choose between their identity or the safety of their parents. 








						Texas bill could send parents to prison for providing gender-affirming care
					

The measure would redefine child abuse to include parents who consent to hormone therapy and puberty blockers for their transgender children.




					www.nbcnews.com

Reactions: Informative 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> Yeah, do you have proof of this? Trans kids don't get surgeries. Most doctors and medical bodies follow the standard of care outlined by WPATH, you can read about it . Which contradicts everything in this one sentence. (exception being masectomies, which are only given after a year of hormone and persistence on trans identity. Important to note, cis minors are able to get reductions or masectomies as well, if it causes distress from bullying or back problems)
> 
> This also outlines standards of care for kids, which is all assessments on persistence, and *competence.* Why competence? Because they need a level of competance comparative to an adult to be able to properly assess the ramifications of proceeding with any sort of intervention. In the UK, this is referred to Gillick competency.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately I fear that these posts will fall on blind eyes. I'm sure I have said this before but this was never about the facts of the matter but about how people felt on the subject. It doesn't matter how many lies you debunk or how many studies you provide nothing will ever be enough. Whole professional organizations with vast knowledge on the subject doesn't even make anyone bat an eye.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> this was never about the facts of the matter but about how people felt on the subject


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

And since I like sakuralover a lot as a poster I'll drop the snark a second



Nowadays people don't do a 180 when presented with "the science" for valid reasons.

We had plenty of studies and "trust the science" revving up behind the fat positivity movement too despite that having a fraction of the political pressure and funding as this movement. "The science" was still rarin' to go with redefining how we see health and wellness.

Nobody around here (including you I'm assuming) bought into it and nobody around here "trusted the science" because it never aligned with everybody's politics or ideology and for various mysterious reasons nobody cares as much about empathizing with fat people the way they seem to care about empathizing with transgender people. Maybe it has something to do with how obesity was never associated with any kind of oppression the way orientation/identification has historically been, I don't know.

Not everything behind the fat positivity movement was bullpuck either, it's not as though "the science" just started making shit up flagrantly about how the fatter you are the healthier you are or something.

It's true that some level of obesity may be healthier than we once assumed.

It's true that the BMI might be a more accurate way to measure health and some people can be healthier with more mass than other people.

It's also true that preconceptions about "skinny" bodies are sometimes also unhealthy, if in different ways.

And to include some of the "social science" with "the science" I guess it might also be true that for some people being a little overweight but mentally happy is a healthier lifestyle than being miserable and trying to stay thin, especially when dealing with medication that tends to cause weight gain. (medication for depression, etc)

Those truths were sometimes processed and published in misleading articles that overemphasize some studies or doctors or nutritionists, but you have that same split here, with this issue.

We're all still learning how to disseminate information in the new media age and it's hard. I mean jesus just look at how we've all processed and argued over the coronavirus this year and that has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of bigotry. Authorities are not infallible, the science can be hand picked, disinformation is rampant, we're all a little disoriented.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> And since I like sakuralover a lot as a poster I'll drop the snark a second


Why thank you it's nice to hear that XD. 


reiatsuflow said:


> Nowadays people don't do a 180 when presented with "the science" for valid reasons.


I'm sure. People don't have to do a 180 when presented with facts bit outright ignoring what is provided shouldn't be a thing either.


reiatsuflow said:


> We had plenty of studies and "trust the science" revving up behind the fat positivity movement too despite that having a fraction of the political pressure and funding as this movement. "The science" was still rarin' to go with redefining how we see health and wellness.


Did we? Overall I think what happened is body positivity and fat positivity were kind of grouped together which I disagree with but I don't have the brain power to put into words.


reiatsuflow said:


> Nobody around here (including you I'm assuming) bought into it and nobody around here "trusted the science" because it never aligned with everybody's politics or ideology and for various mysterious reasons nobody cares as much about empathizing with fat people the way they seem to care about empathizing with transgender people. Maybe it has something to do with how obesity was never associated with any kind of oppression the way orientation/identification has historically been, I don't know.


I believe that is part of the reason. It's not really about not empathizing with fat people and not caring though. It's more like the factors that can lead to obesity are typically thought to be influenced by environment (which is not always the case) rather than genetic makeup (Even though it can play a factor). I do think the oppression aspect is more valid in gender dysphoria because it's more in line with sexual orientation than something like body positivity.


reiatsuflow said:


> Not everything behind the fat positivity movement was bullpuck either, it's not as though "the science" just started making shit up flagrantly about how the fatter you are the healthier you are or something.


I agree. I feel like body positivity and fat positivity were again seen as just one thing. Body positivity was supposed to be about being comfortable in your own skin and promoting body types that more normal people had instead of maybe the two or three seen in the media which could have an negative impact in how people especially younger ones saw themselves. Fat positivity was pretty much an offshoot of this movement. You shouldn't be looked down upon for being fat but it shouldn't be encouraged either. For example when Lizzo came out her message was about body positivity and while that was the case because she was the messenger it seemed like in my opinion anyways people conflated it with fat positivity.


reiatsuflow said:


> It's true that some level of obesity may be healthier than we once assumed.
> 
> It's true that the BMI might be a more accurate way to measure health and some people can be healthier with more mass than other people.


Yes.


reiatsuflow said:


> It's also true that preconceptions about "skinny" bodies are sometimes also unhealthy, if in different ways.
> 
> And to include some of the "social science" with "the science" I guess it might also be true that for some people being a little overweight but mentally happy is a healthier lifestyle than being miserable and trying to stay thin, especially when dealing with medication that tends to cause weight gain. (medication for depression, etc)


I fall in to that second category. I am on medication for depression so for me it seemed like no matter what I did I couldn't change what was happening and just gained weight even after all the struggling I put into being healthier it didn't stop be from ballooning to 215 pounds. I then started ADHD medication for the treatment of my ADD and have dropped to around 183. I then came to the realization that while some of it was the fault of medication I was pretty much an undiagnosed binge eater as well. So yes I overall agree that some people can't help the situation they are in due to some circumstance or another.


reiatsuflow said:


> Those truths were sometimes processed and published in misleading articles that overemphasize some studies or doctors or nutritionists, but you have that same split here, with this issue.


I don't quite agree here but that's because there is overwhelming evidence supporting gender affirmation in youth to actually transitioning for those old enough. That's not to say everything is down to an exact science because it unfortunately isn't. Even people in the research communities offer differingq opinions and solutions. For example a transwoman researcher believes that the maximum testosterone in the blood of transwoman should be lower than the current amount. Overall they all agree on certain things like HRT lowering the performance of transwoman dropping by an average of about 5% per year which after about two years leaves most performing similarly to biological women. That's not to say that it's perfect because certain people (ones with lots of muscle mass) aren't affected as much by the hormone replacement.


reiatsuflow said:


> We're all still learning how to disseminate information in the new media age and it's hard. I mean jesus just look at how we've all processed and argued over the coronavirus this year and that has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of bigotry. Authorities are not infallible, the science can be hand picked, disinformation is rampant, we're all a little disoriented.


This is true but how can we come to a reasonable conclusion if everything that doesn't support an argument is labeled as handpicked, disinformatve, and flawed? Authorities aren't infallible but then again neither is anybody.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I don't quite agree here but that's because there is overwhelming evidence supporting gender affirmation in youth to actually transitioning for those old enough. That's not to say everything is down to an exact science because it unfortunately isn't. Even people in the research communities offer differingq opinions and solutions. For example a transwoman researcher believes that the maximum testosterone in the blood of transwoman should be lower than the current amount. Overall they all agree on certain things like HRT lowering the performance of transwoman dropping by an average of about 5% per year which after about two years leaves most performing similarly to biological women. That's not to say that it's perfect because certain people (ones with lots of muscle mass) aren't affected as much by the hormone replacement.
> 
> This is true but how can we come to a reasonable conclusion if everything that doesn't support an argument is labeled as handpicked, disinformatve, and flawed? Authorities aren't infallible but then again neither is anybody.



Even if you clear up the specifics about the hormone therapy stuff, the big immovable object here remains something similar to the fat positivity thing (the redefinition of wellness and health); up until six or seven years ago there was a consensus about obesity being unhealthy and gender dysphoria being a psychiatric condition. 

Now those topics are much more complicated and some of the complexity is new information, some of that complexity is evolved understanding, some of the complexity is cultural, some of the complexity is political, some of that complexity is ideological. And it's all still so new and recent that people are understandably nervous about involving children.

We're arguing about the covid vaccines still for that same reason. You can clear up the specifics about how the vaccines work (Jim just did a great job if you pop on over to the corona thread) but the vaccines are still new and people are still unsure about involving themselves or their children in it.

And speaking of the pandemic, the medical community has been occasionally irresponsible and political during the pandemic. I think all of our institutions are having a hard time adjusting responsibly to the social media age.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

Although I will say this and I think it follows for a lot of the skeptical transphobic people.

If someone who is unstable and dysfunctional undergoes transition and then becomes a stable and functioning member of society and that's how it goes the majority of the time, people like me will eventually shut up. We really will. 

It might not seem like it now but give it time and redundancy. 

Because even I know that if you have a genuinely mentally ill person with a warped perception of reality you can't, like, mollify their mental illness by reinforcing/enabling their perception of reality. That's not how this stuff works.

Like if you have a paranoid schizophrenic who thinks he has chips in his brain and his mail man is working for the government and people are "gang stalking" him (look it up, it's wild), you cannot make this person become a functional member of society simply by agreeing with his perception of the world and making everyone else agree with his perceptions of the world and having society walk around pretending like he really is being gang stalked. 

He might calm down for a bit, sure, but _eventually_ his mentally ill brain will start suspecting you of being a government agent too and his paranoia returns and then we're back to square one because the problem is his brain and his brain will remain a problem no matter how you accommodate him.

So if someone who's trans is living a difficult, unstable, depressed, dysfunctional life and then post transition becomes a stable functioning member of society, well, that will get through to my camp eventually and that will probably be the thing that ultimately shuts most of us up.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Yuji (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> Trans women get painted as deviants because bigots think they're deviant men. Which have always been painted as perverts who want easier access to places to rape or fuck over women and/or children. Trans men are treated by bigots as butch women who lost their way (kinda misogynistic), so they aren't a focus of outrage, but rather, of pity and sympathy. The same thing said about trans women were said about black men in america near the end of segregation, and the same of homosexual men. Lesbians were fetishized, and glossed over for the most part.
> 
> This is the reason why trans women specifically are the subject of outrage over trans men. Trans women get overexposure in the media, trans men are essentially invisible.
> 
> You're very much showing how absolutely little you know about this topic at hand. This is cursory knowledge for people who are even somewhat involved with this shit. Even JK Rowling touched on this with her transphobic letter. Claiming that she could have be a _gasp_ a trans man if she was raised in the current times. _How horrible!!!! _



This guy qualified for the olypic trials in the RACEWALK, which is an area where men and women already closely compete.

THIS is your guy? That's your big male champion?

The rest of what you said is an unsubstantiated rant that I don't care about. You've been shown transwomen *dominating* their sports and your answer to the opposite is a guy who qualified to compete in a RACEWALK, that says it all.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Even if you clear up the specifics about the hormone therapy stuff, the big immovable object here remains something similar to the fat positivity thing (the redefinition of wellness and health); up until six or seven years ago there was a consensus about obesity being unhealthy and gender dysphoria being a psychiatric condition.


I mean that consensus is still the same as far as obesity goes but I think basing someone's ideal body weight off of their height, age, and sex is probably a bit too rigid considering there are different body types.

As far as dysphoria goes there is a bit of word of it being because of hormones levels in utero and what not. If I'm not mistaken at one type being gay was thought of as being a mental illness 


reiatsuflow said:


> Now those topics are much more complicated and some of the complexity is new information, some of that complexity is evolved understanding, some of the complexity is cultural, some of the complexity is political, some of that complexity is ideological. And it's all still so new and recent that people are understandably nervous about involving children.


This is valid. But I do think having an open mind is something that needs to happen. A lot of these kids are in danger because the suicide rates with gender affirmation is alarmingly high.


reiatsuflow said:


> We're arguing about the covid vaccines still for that same reason. You can clear up the specifics about how the vaccines work (Jim just did a great job if you pop on over to the corona thread) but the vaccines are still new and people are still unsure about involving themselves or their children in it.


This is also understandable because for the most part vaccines for through years of trial these were rushed out. The same can't be said about this because the phenomena has been around for the longest time it's just that recently it has come very much into the spotlight.


reiatsuflow said:


> And speaking of the pandemic, the medical community has been occasionally irresponsible and political during the pandemic. I think all of our institutions are having a hard time adjusting responsibly to the social media age.


I mean I can't blame them for politics being inserted in this considering one of the countries top political figures made it that way. But it also needs to be understood that this disease was new and pandemics are rare.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Yuji said:


> This guy qualified for the olypic trials in the RACEWALK, which is an area where men and women already closely compete.
> 
> THIS is your guy? That's your big male champion?
> 
> The rest of what you said is an unsubstantiated rant that I don't care about. You've been shown transwomen *dominating* their sports and your answer to the opposite is a guy who qualified to compete in a RACEWALK, that says it all.


I've previously given you multiple examples and have contextualized this so called dominating you spoke of I just have never received any rebuttal. I've also provided you examples of transmale athletes competing with biological male counterparts. Also racewalking is divided into divisions so their must be some type of difference for it to warrant separation.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Because even I know that if you have a genuinely mentally ill person with a warped perception of reality you can't, like, mollify their mental illness by reinforcing/enabling their perception of reality. That's not how this stuff works.


This is perception of their outside reality it's different from the self perception of people experiencing gender dysphoria. For example most men wouldn't take too kindly to being seen as and talked to like a woman just apply that oppositely.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> This is perception of their outside reality it's different from the self perception of people experiencing gender dysphoria. For example most men wouldn't take too kindly to being seen as and talked to like a woman just apply that oppositely.



Idk. We don't do that with other dysphoric experiences. 

I mean if your friend has body dysmorphia we don't help her dysphoria by pretending she's just as fat as she thinks she is even though she's 80 pounds and starving herself. 

If your friend has a dysphoric relationship with their appearance and gets plastic surgery because they keep fixating on their jawline, we don't support that and tell them to chase their truth. We send them to a shrink.

I thought people were doing this with trans folk under the assumption that trans is a more legitimate experience and someone who has a gender dysphoric isn't just experiencing (for lack of a better term) a psychiatric problem, there's something more physical and "real" and that's why we're promoting physical transitioning over psychiatrists. that's what I thought/assumed


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## Yuji (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I've previously given you multiple examples and have contextualized this so called dominating you spoke of



No you haven't, you also thought that racewalking was a legitimate argument and gave some obscure example of a flyweight fighter winning a points match against a guy that was 0-7.

The face that you think these examples are legitimate is a joke.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> I mean if your friend has body dysmorphia we don't help her dysphoria by pretending she's just as fat as she thinks she is even though she's 80 pounds and starving herself.


I'm not sure this is an equivalent though.  In a few ways.

If someone has body dysmorphia and is starving themselves, would treating them like they are fat cause their behavior to change?  Not that I would expect.

And for that matter most people with gender dysphoria don't look in the mirror and see a body that is the gender they identify with.  That's the problem, they see a body that _isn't_ the way they think it should be.

It's more akin to the person that's obese but thinks they should be skinny.  They look in the mirror and say "but that's not me."  And I think you'll find a variety of different ways that is addressed.

Some will attempt diet and exercise to try and get their body to conform to how they think it should be.  Some will get plastic surgery or liposuction to attempt a surgical remedy.  Some will just be miserable and hate that they don't look the way they think they should.

Some people will react to them in different ways.  Some will attempt to change the way they judge their body ("no, you're gorgeous").  Some will support and encourage their attempts to change ("feel the burn!").  Some will just be bitches ("go be fat somewhere else fatty you fat sack of fat.").




reiatsuflow said:


> If your friend has a dysphoric relationship with their appearance and gets plastic surgery because they keep fixating on their jawline, we don't support that


We don't?

Google says 2600 plastic surgeons in the U.S. disagree.  Some of them will even tell you exactly how your chin is flawed and what you need to do to improve it.


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## Jim (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Nobody around here (including you I'm assuming) bought into it and nobody around here "trusted the science" because it never aligned with everybody's politics or ideology and for various mysterious reasons nobody cares as much about empathizing with fat people the way they seem to care about empathizing with transgender people. Maybe it has something to do with how obesity was never associated with any kind of oppression the way orientation/identification has historically been, I don't know.


I did. I was against abortion, but the data showed that prohibiting it didn't save lives, even the fetus's. Prohibiting abortion only increases the amount of death.
Shame how reality doesn't align with our feelings.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

Jim said:


> I did. I was against abortion, but the data showed that prohibiting it didn't save lives, even the fetus's. Prohibiting abortion only increases the amount of death.
> Shame how reality doesn't align with our feelings.



Jim walked into a transgender thread and was like "There aren't enough controversial topics yet" and then dropped the A bomb.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Jim (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Jim walked into a transgender thread and was like "There aren't enough controversial topics yet" and then dropped the A bomb.


lol, well we did start talking about obesity in that post i quoted too


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## MangoSenpai (Apr 30, 2021)

Transgender "females" (men that decided they wanted to be females) shouldn't be allowed in female sports, easy as that.
Shouldn't need to be discussed. I shouldn't post here, let alone click on this damn thread cus I know I'm gonna get pissed.

I understand the point in this where it's basically calling for "gender checking" which can lead to sexual abuse and whatever.
But honestly, this is a problem that this god damn reverse generation has created for themselves.

If somone has a better idea how to deal with the situation then good, but trans people shouldn't be allowed to participate in female sports. End of story.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 3


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> I shouldn't post here, let alone click on this damn thread cus I know I'm gonna get pissed.


And yet you write your crappy post.


MangoSenpai said:


> I understand the point in this where it's basically calling for "gender checking" which can lead to sexual abuse and whatever.
> But honestly, this is a problem that this god damn reverse generation has created for themselves.


So you're blaming transgendered people rather than the people actually committing the sexual abuse.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JJ Baloney (Apr 30, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> Excellent news if true.  Looks like the deal is dead (At least for now)


Unfortunately, the bill passed last night.


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## MangoSenpai (Apr 30, 2021)

JJ Baloney said:


> And yet you write your crappy post.


Yes I am, cus I get mad when I read this shit.
You endorsing this disgusting behavior sickens me.
What they do in private I couldn't give 2 shits about, but the moment they want to use female restrooms and wardrobes and infiltrate their sports scene is where I draw the god damn line.


JJ Baloney said:


> So you're blaming transgendered people rather than the people actually committing the sexual abuse.


This is why I get so god damn livid when talking to people like you, you just HAVE to use this card all the god damn time.
Everything is not their fault - yada yada.

First of all, why should they be allowed in female sports to begin with?
Second of all, this is a problem that really didn't need to be a problem. PROBLEM ARE PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO MADE THIS A PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH.

Have you thought about the actual women in this story?
Don't you think they feel very uncomfortable with a "female" that's not actually a female, in their wardrobes with them?
I know I would be.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Informative 1 | Dislike 3


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## Jim (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> Yes I am, cus I get mad when I read this shit.
> You endorsing this disgusting behavior sickens me.
> What they do in private I couldn't give 2 shits about, but the moment they want to use female restrooms and wardrobes and infiltrate their sports scene is where I draw the god damn line.
> 
> ...


i can't help but find this post very hilarious.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MangoSenpai (Apr 30, 2021)

Jim said:


> i can't help but find this post very hilarious.


Well, that's fine. I don't get mad very often, but it's this shit that makes me livid lmao

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 2


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## Yami Munesanzun (Apr 30, 2021)

Money says ya'll raising a stink about this didnt give a shit about women's sports prior and are just using this to raise a pretend outrage 

Are you _that_ bored?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> Money says ya'll raising a stink about this didnt give a shit about women's sports prior and are just using this to raise a pretend outrage
> 
> Are you _that_ bored?





Who is more bored, the bored or the one who comments on the bored?


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## Yami Munesanzun (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Who is more bored, the bored or the one who comments on the bored?


Wynaut both?


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

The coffee shop I go to has no gendered bathrooms anymore and I completely freaked out and just peed in the corner of the seating area.


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## Pilaf (Apr 30, 2021)

JJ Baloney said:


> Unfortunately, the bill passed last night.



Based Florida.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Although I will say this and I think it follows for a lot of the skeptical transphobic people.
> 
> *If someone who is unstable and dysfunctional undergoes transition and then becomes a stable and functioning member of society and that's how it goes the majority of the time, people like me will eventually shut up. We really will.*
> 
> ...



Im confused who is sayinng trans people are unstable and dysfunctional? 

They may be depressed and suicidal(Hey join the club) but that doesn't mean they can't function in society whatever the hell that means anyway

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pilaf (Apr 30, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Im confused who is sayinng trans people are unstable and dysfunctional?
> 
> They may be depressed and suicidal(Hey join the club) but that doesn't mean they can't function in society whatever the hell that means anyway



Yeah. They can also be miserable cogs in the increasingly corporate, HR driven, Holly-weirdo worshiping society the rest of us suffer underneath.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Superstars (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> Yeah, do you have proof of this? Trans kids don't get surgeries. Most doctors and medical bodies follow the standard of care outlined by WPATH, you can read about it . Which contradicts everything in this one sentence. (*exception being masectomies, which are only given after a year of hormone and persistence on trans identity*. Important to note, cis minors are able to get reductions or masectomies as well, if it causes distress from bullying or back problems)
> 
> This also outlines standards of care for kids, which is all assessments on persistence, and *competence.* Why competence? Because they need a level of competance comparative to an adult to be able to properly assess the ramifications of proceeding with any sort of intervention. In the UK, this is referred to Gillick competency.
> 
> ...


Hormonal interventions, such as puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, are just as destructive since they permanently alter the body and cause sterilization. Invasive surgeries happen to kid/teens too, who we all know are on a path of exploration. The government/schools are unfairly promoting/indoctrinating both processes on the ill informed of life.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Idk. We don't do that with other dysphoric experiences.
> 
> I mean if your friend has body dysmorphia we don't help her dysphoria by pretending she's just as fat as she thinks she is even though she's 80 pounds and starving herself.


That's anorexia which has shown to be unhealthy and extremely harmful. So making her believe she is fat isn't harm reduction but excasterbating an already damaging and potentially fatal illness. The treatment of dysphoria isn't one size fits all nor should it be reduced into an argument that doesn't fit.


reiatsuflow said:


> If your friend has a dysphoric relationship with their appearance and gets plastic surgery because they keep fixating on their jawline, we don't support that and tell them to chase their truth. We send them to a shrink.


No they go to a plastic surgeon. Many times they are encouraged.


reiatsuflow said:


> thought people were doing this with trans folk under the assumption that trans is a more legitimate experience and someone who has a gender dysphoric isn't just experiencing (for lack of a better term) a psychiatric problem, there's something more physical and "real" and that's why we're promoting physical transitioning over psychiatrists. that's what I thought/assumed


Unfortunately that's not right and while someone has addressed it I just want to add on to it. Physical transition isn't promoted over psychologists because it starts with a psychological exam and people go through months and years of therapy until physical transition hell you are even bought time so you have the ability to change your mind.


Yuji said:


> No you haven't, you also thought that racewalking was a legitimate argument and gave some obscure example of a flyweight fighter winning a points match against a guy that was 0-7.


I gave you more than just racewalking unless I need to scroll back up and collect my post because you're blatantly lying. You ignored the examples I gave and changed your criteria because you couldn't refute the examples I provided. You are the one who said "literally anything" and "go find me a female to male transition where that trans person is able to compete with the men in a "sport" and i'll drop all arguments about this topic" who else did you want patricio manuel? An 18 year old transgender guy bodybuilder who has won against biological guys in physique competitions?

Fallon Fox isn't a guy and was beaten by TKO by a biological woman. Out of her 6 professional fights three were TKO and two she won by submission. The last one I spoke of first so no it wasn't a points match. The biological woman just outperformed her which is a far cry from your so called domination. With a little more scrutiny a lot of your other examples hold little water as well.

If less than one percent of the population is transgender and even less play sports how often are you finding  actual situations where transwomen dominate? How many transwomen or men have won a medal at the olympics since being able to compete since 2003? The answer is 0 by the way. What do you want pictures of transmen who look like they can twist people into pretzels?

I can look and find examples all day but asking me to find in a population of less than a percentage point, that are athletes (cue percentage cut), that are men (Cue percentage cut), who compete at an olympic level (cue percentage cut). 

But it's more than enough to be able to give you examples on transmen competing with men since that is what you asked for first. I'll take some real examples of domination if you have them. Being less than 3% faster isn't one, winning 2/13 races isn't one, losing to one woman and beating another that took a biological woman less time to beat isn't one, so I mean even the example of Laural Hubbard is overstated because she has lost to biological women as well.


Yuji said:


> The face that you think these examples are legitimate is a joke.


The fact that you waffled on your own criteria is a legitimate joke.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Im confused who is sayinng trans people are unstable and dysfunctional?
> 
> They may be depressed and suicidal(Hey join the club) but that doesn't mean they can't function in society whatever the hell that means anyway



Whatever word you want to use for "billy needs to go through a chemical and surgical transition or he'll kill himself" is the word I meant to use.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Whatever word you want to use for "billy needs to go through a chemical and surgical transition or he'll kill himself" is the word I meant to use.


A bit reductionist of you ask me.


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Yuji said:


> This guy qualified for the olypic trials in the RACEWALK, which is an area where men and women already closely compete.
> 
> THIS is your guy? That's your big male champion?
> 
> The rest of what you said is an unsubstantiated rant that I don't care about. You've been shown transwomen *dominating* their sports and your answer to the opposite is a guy who qualified to compete in a RACEWALK, that says it all.



Yeah? Where's all these women then? I'm not seeing them.









						Transgender wrestler Mack Beggs wins Texas girls title again
					

High school senior, 18, who wants to fight boys, beats opponent from 2017 final again




					www.theguardian.com
				




Trans men have an issue with being invisible, if you have issue with it, then get outraged with them more often.


reiatsuflow said:


> Idk. We don't do that with other dysphoric experiences.
> 
> I mean if your friend has body dysmorphia we don't help her dysphoria by pretending she's just as fat as she thinks she is even though she's 80 pounds and starving herself.
> 
> ...



Body dysmorphia is similar but quite a bit different from Gender dysphoria. I've talked about it . A tl;dr is that gender dysphoria is something that goes away with physical or physiological intervention, but body dysmorphia persists. Someone with BD will always perceive themselves or a body part to be unsatisfactory *even after getting surgery. *Gender dysphoria does not. Keep in mind trans people with BD do exist. Also treating GD like BD does not alleviate GD, transitioning is the best way to deal with GD.



MangoSenpai said:


> Yes I am, cus I get mad when I read this shit.
> You endorsing this disgusting behavior sickens me.
> What they do in private I couldn't give 2 shits about, but the moment they want to use female restrooms and wardrobes and infiltrate their sports scene is where I draw the god damn line.
> 
> ...



You're absolutely a transphobic pos. 
I've been in every female space, no one else felt uncomfortable. If you're uncomfortable it's because you made up this fear in your head. Like a racist being scared that a brown person is in a change room with them, we don't entertain the racist. But transmysogynists? Yeah, they're totally right and I'm sure it's backed up by stats. Oh wait, it's not. It's an irrational fear.



reiatsuflow said:


> Whatever word you want to use for "billy needs to go through a chemical and surgical transition or he'll kill himself" is the word I meant to use.



Fuck this, suicidal thinking in trans people comes from a few sources: Lack of access to transition services and more importantly transphobia. Even kids  just getting positive support from their peers and family is enough to reduce suicidality. Who would've thunk that a minority who's poor statistics regarding employment, harassment, homelessness, schooling, being kicked out by their family would have higher rates of suicidal thinking?

This line is so reductive and you really have 0 idea what you're talking about. Billy needs to transition otherwise it'll make his life a depressive nightmare, as a result of keeping their true identity in the closet. Suicidal thoughts come as a result of this. The 41% stat is attempts, and it's not separated by serious attempts and non-serious. Historically LGBT+ people were at higher risk of suicide as a result of keeping their identity secret, it's why suicide stats got better after same-sex marriage legislation. 



Pilaf said:


> Based Florida.


You're disgusting.



Superstars said:


> Hormonal interventions, such as puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, are just as destructive since they permanently alter the body and cause sterilization. Invasive surgeries happen to kid/teens too, who we all know are on a path of exploration. The government/schools are unfairly promoting/indoctrinating both processes on the ill informed of life.



Yeah, proven to not read anything provided to him like a true moron. You've been indoctrinated on being a bigot. Cry more about not having a shred of sympathy or empathy for people different from you, it's one of your strengths for sure.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## Yuji (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> You are the one who said "literally anything"



Why did you put this in quotation marks when I never said anything of the sort? Quotation marks are for quoting people.

You were asked to give examples of transgender males dominating sports the same way Rachel Mckinnen did for example who became a *world champion*. Or the transgender powerlifter who broke multiple *world records*. And the best you could come up with was someone qualified for a RACEWALKING TEAM and someone who won a points match in a flyweight division. Just admit you don't have any instead of embarrassing yourself.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## MangoSenpai (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> You're absolutely a transphobic pos.
> I've been in every female space, no one else felt uncomfortable. If you're uncomfortable it's because you made up this fear in your head.



OK.

So let me get it right, I'm a transphobe because I don't appreciate them trying to pose as the opposite gender, using restrooms, wardrobes and other private areas? And I'm a transphobe because I want to promote fairness in sports?

This is honestly why nobody likes people like you when arguing, because for one you are so god damn pissy about everything and it's impossible having a conversation. You're narrow minded and delusional.
You create problems that didn't need to be a problem.

Trans people may do whatever they want to, so long it doesn't affect people who want nothing to do with it.
Have it ever occured to you that maybe some people just don't want to have anything to do with it?
"oh but that's just transphobia"
fuck off, that doesn't have to have anything to do with it. Why can't you just accept people's right's to their own safe and private space?
Why can't you respect that not all people will agree to this?

I'm sorry if I came off as agressive to begin with, but honestly I've never once met a single pro-LGBTQ person who isn't agressive, bitter, narrowminded, delusional, jumping to conclusions, unable to reflect on anything, and can't see past their nose.

Honestly the most unlikeable people on earth, no wonder nobody wants to support your cultist beliefs.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Yuji said:


> Why did you put this in quotation marks when I never said anything of the sort? Quotation marks are for quoting people.
> 
> You were asked to give examples of transgender males dominating sports the same way Rachel Mckinnen did for example who became a *world champion*. Or the transgender powerlifter who broke multiple *world records*. And the best you could come up with was someone qualified for a RACEWALKING TEAM and someone who won a points match in a flyweight division. Just admit you don't have any instead of embarrassing yourself.



Your premise is false in the first place. Provide any evidence. Sakura talked about Mckinnen already, as did I.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## WorkingMoogle (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> So let me get it right, I'm a transphobe because I don't appreciate them trying to pose as the opposite gender


This is actually very close to the definition, yes.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> OK.
> 
> So let me get it right, I'm a transphobe because I don't appreciate them trying to pose as the opposite gender, using restrooms, wardrobes and other private areas? And I'm a transphobe because I want to promote fairness in sports?
> 
> ...



Yeah, saying that this shit sickens you is something you totally want to have a conversation about. 

You're a transphobe for insinuating that trans people aren't who they say they are, that they should be excluded from the spaces they rightfully should be in. That's literally the fucking definition. So yes, you're being hella transphobic. Just own it you coward.

People who say "They can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't effect anyone else" typically mean they never want it seen or talked about. The amount of people who have said this and get mad about gay people holding hands in public is fun, cause in reality, it means that they want approval over what gay people can and can't do. The reality of it is, trans women piss in the washroom we chose based on our safety. There's no legitimate safety issues with others, and if a transphobe is uncomfortable with that, so be it. They're actually outnumbered, and the comfort of a bigot isn't something worth entertaining. A racist being uncomfortable around a poc is one where we tell that person to suck it up and don't be a piece of shit. 

If you actually wanted nothing to do with it, then you wouldn't be talking about it. You wouldn't be giving your shit opinion, and you'd let trans people be. It seems to me that you care, and that you care enough that if you saw a women who looked like a man in a women's space, you'd be uncomfortable. That you support this and similar legislation sickens you, because you do want something to do with it. 

"Nobody" is doing a hell of a lot of work, considering the surveys and support trans folk have. Regarding nearly every important medical and psychiatric body, people and western governments. I live in Canada, where laws like this are federally barred from being enacted due to our Bill Of Rights. 

A trans person being neglected and rejected at every turn for being who they are is someone that's going to be hurting for life. And hopefully that life isn't stopped short.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> Yes I am, cus I get mad when I read this shit.
> You endorsing this disgusting behavior sickens me.
> What they do in private I couldn't give 2 shits about, but the moment they want to use female restrooms and wardrobes and infiltrate their sports scene is where I draw the god damn line.



If you are really concerned about sexual assault and abuse, all data points to trans people being the most likely victims of sexual assault. You should be more supportive of trans people if you want to stop this.



> First of all, why should they be allowed in female sports to begin with?



From *all* sports? Even in sports that a higher bone density and muscle distribution causes more of a disadvantage like in ice skating or gymnastics? How about in sports where it is irrelevant like ice curling?

See, when there's obvious sports where it shouldn't matter if a person is trans or not, yet you are persistent on banning them, it comes off as being bigoted rather than being informed. We can have a more nuanced discussion for sports that contain physical contact and needs strength, but this makes you look deeply uninformed.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Yuji said:


> Why did you put this in quotation marks when I never said anything of the sort? Quotation marks are for quoting people.
> 
> You were asked to give examples of transgender males dominating sports the same way Rachel Mckinnen did for example who became a *world champion*. Or the transgender powerlifter who broke multiple *world records*. And the best you could come up with was someone qualified for a RACEWALKING TEAM and someone who won a points match in a flyweight division. Just admit you don't have any instead of embarrassing yourself.


Oh I mistook you for that ainya person your arguments are practically the same my apologies 

I also already adressed everything that she brought up. Here I'll even quote it to make it easier on myself.

Wait

In fact I did address you and provide rebuttals.

Here is Rachel Mckinnon.


SakuraLover16 said:


> Post it. The one that I see in question deals with Rachel Mckinnon so that must be what you are referring to correct? Are you aware that one of the women who complained regularly raced and out of the 13 competitions they have raced in she beat Mckinnon 11 of those times. That surely reeks of an unfair advantage doesn't it?


If I'm not mistaken the woman who complained moved up an age category and others dropped out the race. Are you winning yet?

Oh here are some times to illustrate a huge gap between Mckinnon and another competitor.


> McKinnon won her qualifying race in 11.649 seconds - a record in the female 35-39 sprint category - with American Dawn Orwick second in 12.063.



Here is Fallon Fox you wrongly claimed she fractured a woman's skull and I replied with.


SakuraLover16 said:


> The woman's skull that you are referring to was not fractured her orbital socket was and it happens to be a common injury in MMA. The transwoman who did that was beaten by a different competitor later on.


She also took longer to win against a woman who had been knocked out faster by a biological woman. I also mentioned that to do what you falsely cited 1100lbs of force is required at the skull's weakest point to accomplish.

You mentioned a track record concerning CeeCee Teller and I provided you with this tidbit of information.


SakuraLover16 said:


> The only story I see about that is on CeeCee Teller who has undergone hormone replacement therapy for a year before going back to compete mind you she also had sex reassignment surgery during that time she had the finishing time of 57.53 while the next competitor had the time of 59.21 meaning that the difference in speed was less that 3% between the two. Not the unfair advantage I heard about either.


It's Epic right? A blowout? Straight domination right my guy?

I've mentioned Laurel Hubbard already. She did set records 4 of them. However she has lost to biological women before and is likely to lose again especially considering she suffered a career screeching injury. My stance on Hubbard specifically isn't as cut and dry as the rest of them because of her previous championships pretransition but anyways.

Also about your downplay of racing walking you do know that it is a 50k right? Meaning 31 miles of power walking and is a 2x national champion. He had been competing against men since 2015.

If you don't find 31 miles of power walking impressive then I don't know what to tell you as you spit in the faces of biological men who train their asses off to do something that strenuous.

Also by the way to compete a transgender woman's testosterone has to be 10 and below for an entire year the average woman has more testosterone circulating their blood stream than a competing transwoman. This means that most of the women they are competing against have higher levels.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yuji (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Oh I mistook you for that ainya person your arguments are practically the same my apologies
> 
> I also already adressed everything that she brought up. Here I'll even quote it to make it easier on myself.
> 
> ...



How do you write a post that long and not answer my question

Name a transgender male athlete that dominates their sport in the way the examples I've provided does? Has their been a male transgender world champion? Setting world records in cycling, powerlifting, breaking skulls in MMA?

The answer you're looking for is no.


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## Superstars (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> Yeah, proven to not read anything provided to him like a true moron. You've been indoctrinated on being a bigot. Cry more about not having a shred of sympathy or empathy for people different from you, it's one of your strengths for sure.


Ah and there it is. The arrogant, flaunting their wealth in victim bucks, pretending they were shunned. 

Read my post again.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Superstars said:


> Ah and there it is. The arrogant, flaunting their wealth in victim bucks, pretending I didn't read them right.
> 
> Read my post again.





Superstars said:


> You just don't get it. It's called a future setup by the left. Hence why kids are indoctrinated in schools about this topic. *They are even having young kids being forced [not knowing the full facts and having made a well informed decision] to undergo surgery for this.* This increases the population and the bidding for their votes begins now. Joe Biden got an overwhelmingly majority vote from this group and they plan to get more since every vote counts. No matter how tiny.
> 
> Too bad, as usual the crazy left are being hypocrites doing it.






Superstars said:


> Hormonal interventions, such as puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones, are just as destructive since they permanently alter the body and cause sterilization. Invasive surgeries happen to kid/teens too, who we all know are on a path of exploration. The government/schools are unfairly promoting/indoctrinating both processes on the ill informed of life.



This was your first post I quoted, then the one in response.

Your """""""""concerns""""""""" is actually talked about in the standards of care document I provided. It starts on page 10. I'll provide the relevant screenshot for you:



This is after the part talking about competency, and following it, it talks about assessments and exploration of gender prior to medical intervention.

Which addresses your "are on a path of exploration". As well as being "forced", as well as "well informed decision". Doctors telling patients of the effects after addressing competency is mentioned on Pg19.

And no one is "forced" this is made up shit. What is forced, is trans kids knowing they're trans, and being forced to proceed with irreversible puberty.

You can't and refuse to read any standards of care, nor do you care about how trans people and kids are actually treated in the health system. It's why you refuse to really stick to one point, and move on to the next, then talk about some sort of government educational conspiracy of how we're forcing kids to be trans and left leaning voters. You not only don't read correctly, you don't read at all.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Gin (Apr 30, 2021)



Reactions: Agree 2


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Suigetsu said:


> Good thing people is getting enough of this shit show. Trannies need to go to a psychologist, not to be encouraged on smearing everyone with their mental desease.



Too bad they have to do just that to get any treatment. I literally provided the standards of care in the post you called old.

Another bigot with slurs packed and ready to go with no ounce of empathy or sympathy and seeming low cognitive function. Go soak your head.


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Suigetsu said:


> How do you expect people to feel empathy for Trannies when they cant even figure themselves out nor their problems first? All they do is lash at other people and corrupt society because they are selfish.
> 
> Do you think all the kids that got bullimia in the 90's demanded acceptance?



We did figure ourselves out, it's morons like you who think we're perpetually confused. I'm a women, because I am. Additionally, I am trans. There's no confusion, doubt, or "me figuring it out" cause it's figured out already.


Maybe we get pissed cause maltreatment is what causes most of our problems and attitudes like yours are why things like discrimination is so fucking common. People think you're a freak, so people treat you like one, it's fucking simple as shit. 

Bullimia is nothing like being transgender. Things like eating disorders are more easily talked about and treated as a result of it's increased awareness in the 90s, trans isn't a mental illness or disorder like eating disorders and similar things.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Yuji said:


> How do you write a post that long and not answer my question
> 
> Name a transgender male athlete that dominates their sport in the way the examples I've provided does? Has their been a male transgender world champion? Setting world records in cycling, powerlifting, breaking skulls in MMA?
> 
> The answer you're looking for is no.


What way did the people listed dominate? Here is the definition of dominate. This is from miriam webster here you go.


> dominate verb
> English Language Learners Definition of dominate
> : to have control of or power over (someone or something)
> : to be the most important part of (something)
> : *to be much more powerful or successful than others in a game, competition, etc.*


The only example you have is Lauren Hubbard. She is the only one you can attempt to use as an example because the rest obviously don't apply. The fact that you keep repeating already debunked arguments prove that you've lost not even children try to win this way . Plus I've already told you that Chris Mosier is a two time national champion. Try again XD. Now refute what I used to debunk your points. I'll be waiting....


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## Superstars (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> This was your first post I quoted, then the one in response.
> 
> Your """""""""concerns""""""""" is actually talked about in the standards of care document I provided. It starts on page 10. I'll provide the relevant screenshot for you:
> 
> ...


You clearly don't even understand. I read and already know that they have medical professionals that gets them informed on the procedure/assessments of health, etc. HOWEVER, How does that mean the child KNOWS this is what they really want? They have not experienced enough to understand themselves FULLY. They need more exposure FIRST before making a life altering decision. AGAIN, that is something your so called experts don't/can't pinpoint.


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

Suigetsu said:


> Degenerates time to take the L now.
> 
> Ironically folks on this very section warned about what would happen if they allowed the wokie liberals to have too much liberties. They said it would never come to it and yet...
> 
> ...



Why would we take the L when the medical consensus is on our side?

Go back to 8chan where you belong.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Suigetsu (Apr 30, 2021)

If you where born with a dick then you are dude, if you where born with a vagina then you are a woman. That is cold fact. If you have sexual disforia then yes, you havent figured yourself out.

Excuses about your poor behaviour. You literally threw insults at me, lashed on me and told me to kill myself because I disagree with you. Do you honestly expect me to have empathy? At the contrary you need to accept you have a problem and seek help. If you want to cross dress or wathever it's not my business but dont expect to change fucking society because of people that have a mental desease.

Bullimia WAS the transgender bullshit of the 90's and early 00's. All pushed by the fashion trend. A lot of people died back then, PEOPLE I KNEW died back then. You are not special for being in that stupid trend that got the medical bank of info deleted just because some folk with sexual disforia got upset. You are just the current trend.

They got treated and lived. But you demand to have culture accomodate your desease... The entitlement/selfishness of todays people... live in absolute denial.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Sad! 1


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

Suigetsu said:


> If you where born with a dick then you are dude, if you where born with a vagina then you are a woman. That is cold fact. If you have sexual disforia then yes, you havent figured yourself out.
> 
> Excuses about your poor behaviour. You literally threw insults at me, lashed on me and told me to kill myself because I disagree with you. Do you honestly expect me to have empathy? At the contrary you need to accept you have a problem and seek help. If you want to cross dress or wathever it's not my business but dont expect to change fucking society because of people that have a mental desease.
> 
> ...



This has to be gamer gater parody account.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Superstars said:


> You clearly don't even understand. I read and already know that they have medical professionals that gets them informed on the procedure/asses of health etc. HOWEVER, How does that mean the child KNOWS this is what they really want? They have not experienced enough to understand themselves FULLY. They need more exposure FIRST before making a life altering decision. AGAIN, that is something your so called experts don't/can't pinpoint.



EXPOSURE of WHAT? Doctors proceed treatment on information provided by the patient, there's enough safety protocols to make sure it's on that is informed, and is something best for them. Everything said here is addressed in the document I provided, if it's not satisfactory, then a large majority of psychiatry and health care isn't up to your obscene standards.


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Suigetsu said:


> Excuses about your poor behaviour. You literally threw insults at me, lashed on me and told me to kill myself because I disagree with you. Do you honestly expect me to have empathy? At the contrary you need to accept you have a problem and seek help. If you want to cross dress or wathever it's not my business but dont expect to change fucking society because of people that have a mental desease.
> 
> Bullimia WAS the transgender bullshit of the 90's and early 00's. All pushed by the fashion trend. A lot of people died back then, PEOPLE I KNEW died back then. You are not special for being in that stupid trend that got the medical bank of info deleted just because some folk with sexual disforia got upset. You are just the current trend.
> 
> They got treated and lived. But you demand to have culture accomodate your desease... The entitlement/selfishness of todays people... live in absolute denial.



Go soak your head is a means to cool yourself off and fuck off, you ok? It's not a threat of suicide, what a fucking REACH.

Trans people I know have died as a result of your bullshit. How fucking dense are you to not see that the same shit you spout is the reason why trans people want to commit?

Imagine the selfishness to go so far out of your way to complain about shit that doesn't effect you with such fervor. Absolute loser behaviour.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Yeah I was wondering where Natty told someone to kill themselves I even had to go back and look in confusion. This must be those alternative facts I hear so much about

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

Pro-trans people: Hey, here's what doctors, psychiatrists, and what the guidelines the Olympics has been using. These people would know way more than a bunch of randoms on a Japanese cartoon forum and most of these experts have dedicated their lives to studying this.

Anti-trans people: THE REPITILLIAN JEWS CONTROL EVERYTHING. DEGENERATES HAVE INFILTREATED CULTURE AND SCIENCE. I'M OBVIOUSLY SCREAMING BUT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT'S TRIGGERED! I'M NOT TRIGGERED BY THE EXISTENCE OF TRANS PEOPLE!  THE FALL OF SOCIETY IS IMMINENT. PROTECT OUR WHITE CHILDREN, DEFEND TRADITION.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## Jim (Apr 30, 2021)

yeah, i saw the "go soak your head" comment but never connected the dots that suigetsu interpreted that as "go kill yourself"

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Jim said:


> yeah, i saw the "go soak your head" comment but never connected the dots that suigetsu interpreted that as "go kill yourself"


Like seriously I went back two pages to read again. My guess is that he never interpreted it as such and needed to find justification for using slurs.


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## Pilaf (Apr 30, 2021)

Kue said:


> Pro-trans people: Hey, here's what doctors, psychiatrists, and what the guidelines the Olympics has been using. These people would know way more than a bunch of randoms on a Japanese cartoon forum and most of these experts have dedicated their lives to studying this.
> 
> Anti-trans people: THE REPITILLIAN JEWS CONTROL EVERYTHING. DEGENERATES HAVE INFILTREATED CULTURE AND SCIENCE. I'M OBVIOUSLY SCREAMING BUT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT'S TRIGGERED! I'M NOT TRIGGERED BY THE EXISTENCE OF TRANS PEOPLE!  THE FALL OF SOCIETY IS IMMINENT. PROTECT OUR WHITE CHILDREN, DEFEND TRADITION.



Or maybe we're fine with adults making the decision to transition but not okay with vulnerable, confused teenagers making decisions they can't reverse later.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Sad! 1


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Like seriously I went back two pages to read again. My guess is that he never interpreted it as such and needed to find justification for using slurs.



Calling people perpetual victims, then becoming a perpetual victim.

Classic conservatism where the projection never stops.


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> Or maybe we're fine with adults making the decision to transition but not okay with vulnerable, confused teenagers making decisions they can't reverse later.



You need to do your research on puberty blockers, you demonstrated in this post you know nothing.


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## Pilaf (Apr 30, 2021)

Look, being a teenager is a confusing time. I know it was 20 years ago, and that was before social media and modern high-speed internet. I can only imagine the pressures kids today face. And make no mistake, teenagers are just larger children. They have no real idea of who they are yet or how the world works. They may think they do, but they do not. They don't need the adults in their lives to be enablers. They need boundaries. More now than ever. It's all fine and good to challenge social norms once you gain the experience and maturity to safely and effectively do so. I engage in a number of delightful perversions, myself. But my mom would have killed me if I hadn't been super sneaky about it back then. That wonderful dance is something modern kids are sadly lacking. Of course teenagers are supposed to explore many facets of life, but they're supposed to do it behind the parents' and teachers' backs. If adults simply approve of everything you do, you miss out on a lot of the early-game XP that's gonna help you in raids and events later. 

In other words - bro, do you even fucking play this game?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Kue said:


> Calling people perpetual victims, then becoming a perpetual victim.
> 
> Classic conservatism where the projection never stops.


Accuse the other party of that which you are guilty of

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kue (Apr 30, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> Look, being a teenager is a confusing time. I know it was 20 years ago, and that was before social media and modern high-speed internet. I can only imagine the pressures kids today face. And make no mistake, teenagers are just larger children. They have no real idea of who they are yet or how the world works. They may think they do, but they do not. They don't need the adults in their lives to be enablers. They need boundaries. More now than ever. It's all fine and good to challenge social norms once you gain the experience and maturity to safely and effectively do so. I engage in a number of delightful perversions, myself. But my mom would have killed me if I hadn't been super sneaky about it back then. That wonderful dance is something modern kids are sadly lacking. Of course teenagers are supposed to explore many facets of life, but they're supposed to do it behind the parents' and teachers' backs. If adults simply approve of everything you do, you miss out on a lot of the early-game XP that's gonna help you in raids and events later.
> 
> In other words - bro, do you even fucking play this game?



Yes, and that's why we have medical professionals more qualified than you to make sure that they are making the right decision on taking puberty blockers that have perfectly reversible effects. This medication was long used for other treatments that were not related to trans treatment at all and have already been studied.

I was hoping for a nuanced discussion about trans women competing specifically in sports like MMA or football, but this has been quite a poor showing for conservatives on NF.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Jim (Apr 30, 2021)

Suigetsu said:


> Bullimia WAS the transgender bullshit of the 90's and early 00's. All pushed by the fashion trend. A lot of people died back then, PEOPLE I KNEW died back then. You are not special for being in that stupid trend that got the medical bank of info deleted just because some folk with sexual disforia got upset. You are just the current trend.
> 
> They got treated and lived. But you demand to have culture accomodate your desease... The entitlement/selfishness of todays people... live in absolute denial.


this would carry a lot more weight if your type of "treatment" for transgenders produced favorable results like treating bullimia. I get that you don't like that survivability with gender reassignment treatment is monumentally beneficial as opposed to attempts at simply convincing them otherwise, but it's reality.

You can get mad at it and whatnot, i get it. The hatred most likely stems from religious beliefs, but consider something. Religions often want people to convert to theirs, right? Isn't the window for conversion closed after their death in many religions as well? Even if they never convert, should you really be someone who delights in preventable deaths simply because it "ends a trend"? And yes, i get that you want them to get "treated", but the treatment you were describing is known to cause more deaths. You want such treatment to be so mainstream that transgenderism is gone.

You may feel that one day, they'll take away your rights. However, if you help the oppressed communities, they'll in turn, help you when they come for you. That "when they came" poem does have some wisdom in it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Useful 1


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## Eros (Apr 30, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> Look, being a teenager is a confusing time. I know it was 20 years ago, and that was before social media and modern high-speed internet. I can only imagine the pressures kids today face. And make no mistake, teenagers are just larger children. They have no real idea of who they are yet or how the world works. They may think they do, but they do not. They don't need the adults in their lives to be enablers. They need boundaries. More now than ever. It's all fine and good to challenge social norms once you gain the experience and maturity to safely and effectively do so. I engage in a number of delightful perversions, myself. But my mom would have killed me if I hadn't been super sneaky about it back then. That wonderful dance is something modern kids are sadly lacking. Of course teenagers are supposed to explore many facets of life, but they're supposed to do it behind the parents' and teachers' backs. If adults simply approve of everything you do, you miss out on a lot of the early-game XP that's gonna help you in raids and events later.
> 
> In other words - bro, do you even fucking play this game?


How does drinking beer, smoking a blunt, smoking cigarettes, and fucking other teens behind your parents' backs have anything to do with gender dysphoria? Having to hide who you are from homophobic/transphobic parents and actually getting caught and ending up homeless is a rather unfortunate outcome to say the least. Suicide, homelessness, human trafficking... These are not good at all. And they do happen all the time due to rejection. It does not build strength. It tears people down.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pilaf (Apr 30, 2021)

Shinra Kusakabe said:


> How does drinking beer, smoking a blunt, smoking cigarettes, and fucking other teens behind your parents' backs have anything to do with gender dysphoria? Having to hide who you are from homophobic/transphobic parents and actually getting caught and ending up homeless is a rather unfortunate outcome to say the least. Suicide, homelessness, human trafficking... These are not good at all. And they do happen all the time due to rejection. It does not build strength. It tears people down.



Oh, goodness. You think that's what I was talking about? I never did any of those things. But I managed to have a lot of hot gay cyber sex, which was really heroic in the age of dial-up when you think about it!

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Eros (Apr 30, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> Oh, goodness. You think that's what I was talking about? I never did any of those things. But I managed to have a lot of hot gay cyber sex, which was really heroic in the age of dial-up when you think about it!


You were quite sheltered obviously. I know a guy who had to leave his country, because he was being hunted down when his parents found out that he liked dick. He then ended up being forced into being a whore.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

We can still stick the landing you guys and not get the thread closed.

I  believe  in  us


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> A bit reductionist of you ask me.





Natty said:


> Fuck this, suicidal thinking in trans people comes from a few sources: Lack of access to transition services and more importantly transphobia. Even kids  just getting positive support from their peers and family is enough to reduce suicidality. Who would've thunk that a minority who's poor statistics regarding employment, harassment, homelessness, schooling, being kicked out by their family would have higher rates of suicidal thinking?
> 
> This line is so reductive and you really have 0 idea what you're talking about. Billy needs to transition otherwise it'll make his life a depressive nightmare, as a result of keeping their true identity in the closet. Suicidal thoughts come as a result of this. The 41% stat is attempts, and it's not separated by serious attempts and non-serious. Historically LGBT+ people were at higher risk of suicide as a result of keeping their identity secret, it's why suicide stats got better after same-sex marriage legislation.



This is the original post



> Although I will say this and I think it follows for a lot of the skeptical transphobic people.
> 
> If someone who is unstable and dysfunctional undergoes transition and then becomes a stable and functioning member of society and that's how it goes the majority of the time, people like me will eventually shut up. We really will.
> 
> ...


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> This is the original post


Hurting and permanently harming  people just for them to possibly succeed and overcome their circumstances to prove the oppressors wrong isn't the best policy. Ridiculous.

People who want to call us crazy are going to do it regardless. They don't care if it's true or not. Appeasing the masters does fuck all.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> I'm sorry if I came off as agressive to begin with, but honestly I've never once met a single pro-LGBTQ person who isn't agressive, bitter, narrowminded, delusional, jumping to conclusions, unable to reflect on anything, and can't see past their nose.



The activist identitarian wings of every group are miserable lots, don't let that besmirch the good name of regular people who just so happen to be (blank)


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> This is the original post


I know what the original post was the way you stated it later was reductive. So it would piss off people. Natty didn't get mad from your original post but it's sort of like that's how you see the struggle of transpeople. I hope I explained it clear enough or maybe I'm off the mark?

@Natty

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Eros (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> This is the original post


They tried Electroshock therapy, hot/cold bath therapy (I forget what that's actually called), and lobotomy before to treat gender dysphoria and homosexuality. It doesn't really work. It's not even an accepted way to treat schizophrenia. I have no idea why you think these types of treatments are okay. They're not.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

Shinra Kusakabe said:


> They tried Electroshock therapy, hot/cold bath therapy (I forget what that's actually called), and lobotomy before to treat gender dysphoria and homosexuality. It doesn't really work. It's not even an accepted way to treat schizophrenia. I have no idea why you think these types of treatments are okay. They're not.



What


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 30, 2021)

Superstars said:


> Ah and there it is. The arrogant, flaunting their wealth in victim bucks, pretending they were shunned.
> 
> Read my post again.


Trans people are shunned though. Those on the other side treat them as either mentally ill or as vermin.


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## reiatsuflow (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> Hurting and permanently harming  people just for them to possibly succeed and overcome their circumstances to prove the oppressors wrong isn't the nice thing to say to people





SakuraLover16 said:


> I know what the original post was the way you stated it later was reductive. So it would piss off people. Natty didn't get mad from your original post but it's sort of like that's how you see the struggle of transpeople. I hope I explained it clear enough or maybe I'm off the mark?
> 
> @Natty



I was trying to say that even for transphobes who resist the articles and studies and everything you guys keep posting, what's going to get through to a lot of people is just seeing folks who have transitioned being functioning members of society who are no more or less unstable than everybody else.

It was the same thing with gay people back when the mainstream was concerned it was a perversion or a mental illness or caused by child abuse and there were high rates of suicide and lots of weird social dysfunctions in the gay community. And like natty already said for the trans thing, the rationalization for the problems with the gay community at the time, the reasoning as to why they were so dysfunctional at such high rates, was because they're being attacked and run out of town and excluded and arrested and can't get regular medical services or live in regular communities and if people would just be cool then you'll see the community even out because there's nothing inherently dysfunctional about being gay.

What got through to a lot of people who weren't automatically okiedoke with homosexuality was eventually seeing functioning contributing gay members of society who weren't any more erratic or unstable than anybody else and the same will be true with trans.

Reactions: Friendly 3


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 30, 2021)

MangoSenpai said:


> Second of all, this is a problem that really didn't need to be a problem. PROBLEM ARE PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO MADE THIS A PROBLEM TO BEGIN WITH.


The people who argue trans people should be accepted hardly many any problems. 

I mean we could make society so unwelcoming that any trans people is either dissuaded or outright cowed from coming out but that doesn't remove trans people. It just forces them to be miserable for the rest of their lives.


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## Eros (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> What


Well, you were talking about treating it, right? That's the only other way, turn the brain into mush.


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> I was trying to say that even for transphobes who resist the articles and studies and everything you guys keep posting, what's going to get through to a lot of people is just seeing folks who have transitioned being functioning members of society who are no more or less unstable than everybody else.
> 
> It was the same thing with gay people back when the mainstream was concerned it was a perversion or a mental illness or caused by child abuse and there were high rates of suicide and lots of weird social dysfunctions in the gay community. And like natty already said for the trans thing, the rationalization for the problems with the gay community at the time, the reasoning as to why they were so dysfunctional at such high rates, was because they're being attacked and run out of town and excluded and arrested and can't get regular medical services or live in regular communities and if people would just be cool then you'll see the community even out because there's nothing inherently dysfunctional about being gay.
> 
> What got through to a lot of people who weren't automatically okiedoke with homosexuality was eventually seeing functioning contributing gay members of society who weren't any more erratic or unstable than anybody else and the same will be true with trans.


My apologies I see what you were saying now.


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> What got through to a lot of people who weren't automatically okiedoke with homosexuality was eventually seeing functioning contributing gay members of society who weren't any more erratic or unstable than anybody else and the same will be true with trans.



A large barrier for this will be the amount of people who know trans folk are very little. Most don't know a single trans person irl. And the ones that do see us as crazy people or like cultists because we get angry or upset regarding treatment of ourselves. Justifiably so. But that's the crazy and mad behaviour they treat as being unstable.

Another problem is groups are using trans issues as a wedge to get at other issues like abortion, birth control, conversion therapy and gay people. The groups fighting trans rights are the same ones fighting against those exact things. in the UK they tried preventing trans children from getting blockers by combating gillick competancy, which also is how teens can get abortions and birth control without their parent's consent. I hope biden does some action against this shit, cause slipping in UK territory or slipping back isn't an option.


lmao


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## Nemesis (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> A large barrier for this will be the amount of people who know trans folk are very little. Most don't know a single trans person irl. And the ones that do see us as crazy people or like cultists because we get angry or upset regarding treatment of ourselves. Justifiably so. But that's the crazy and mad behaviour they treat as being unstable.
> 
> Another problem is groups are using trans issues as a wedge to get at other issues like abortion, birth control, conversion therapy and gay people. The groups fighting trans rights are the same ones fighting against those exact things. in the UK they tried preventing trans children from getting blockers by combating gillick competancy, which also is how teens can get abortions and birth control without their parent's consent. I hope biden does some action against this shit, cause slipping in UK territory or slipping back isn't an option.
> 
> lmao



I know Biden basically told the DoJ to fight every one of these state laws that are coming through as he basically considers them unconstitutional.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Natty (Apr 30, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> I know Biden basically told the DoJ to fight every one of these state laws that are coming through as he basically considers them unconstitutional.




I know he said something about supporting the trans community and putting trans rights in civil rights protection. I'm hoping it covers things like sports, kids/teen transition services and others. I'm not aware of what you mention tbh


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## Nemesis (Apr 30, 2021)

Natty said:


> I know he said something about supporting the trans community and putting trans rights in civil rights protection. I'm hoping it covers things like sports, kids/teen transition services and others. I'm not aware of what you mention tbh



I was reading it in some of the communities I am a part of which they were saying that Biden's DOJ has pretty much stated that these laws are in Violation of laws against sex discrimination.  I'll need to find the original source for it though.  But it does look like the DOJ are not happy with these laws going through at all.


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## Nep Nep (Apr 30, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> Yeah I was wondering where Natty told someone to kill themselves I even had to go back and look in confusion. This must be those alternative facts I hear so much about



I think the issue is his English is as poor as his character.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Nep Nep (Apr 30, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> Look, being a teenager is a confusing time. I know it was 20 years ago, and that was before social media and modern high-speed internet. I can only imagine the pressures kids today face. And make no mistake, teenagers are just larger children. They have no real idea of who they are yet or how the world works. They may think they do, but they do not. They don't need the adults in their lives to be enablers. They need boundaries. More now than ever. It's all fine and good to challenge social norms once you gain the experience and maturity to safely and effectively do so. I engage in a number of delightful perversions, myself. But my mom would have killed me if I hadn't been super sneaky about it back then. That wonderful dance is something modern kids are sadly lacking. Of course teenagers are supposed to explore many facets of life, but they're supposed to do it behind the parents' and teachers' backs. If adults simply approve of everything you do, you miss out on a lot of the early-game XP that's gonna help you in raids and events later.
> 
> In other words - bro, do you even fucking play this game?



The puberty blockers are a stopgap basically. It simply delays puberty and a decision is actually made later.

Now what age is appropriate? There's no one age for everyone but alas.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SakuraLover16 (Apr 30, 2021)

Nep Nep said:


> I think the issue is his English is as poor as his character.


That actually makes a lot of sense. If we were going off of character he would clinically be a vegetable.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Kue said:


> Yes, and that's why we have medical professionals more qualified than you to make sure that they are making the right decision on taking puberty blockers that have perfectly reversible effects. This medication was long used for other treatments that were not related to trans treatment at all and have already been studied.
> 
> I was hoping for a nuanced discussion about trans women competing specifically in sports like MMA or football, but this has been quite a poor showing for conservatives on NF.



Most of them have stopped arguing after being constantly banned. You came late to the party, so if you want to catch up there are a few threads from last year you could go over.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> Most of them have stopped arguing after being constantly banned. You came late to the party, so if you want to catch up there are a few threads from last year you could go over.



Hm, I wonder what they got banned over. 

Very generous on these same people as being nuanced too. All discussions around this topic is the same thing since I've joined. It used to be much more offensive and without tact, it's actually gotten better in this regard, which is incredibly sad.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Hm, I wonder what they got banned over.
> 
> Very generous on these same people as being nuanced too. All discussions around this topic is the same thing since I've joined.



You should ask the mods why they got banned, but if I was to guess generally mass reporting by the otherside. Most discussions are simple, people tend not to pussyfoot around the issues. Sadly it triggers one side or the other and then what follows is usually a ban.

Anyway, the previous discussions are there, so @Kue can read over them.

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> You should ask the mods why they got banned, but if I was to guess generally mass reporting by the otherside. Most discussions are simple, people tend not to pussyfoot around the issues. Sadly it triggers one side or the other and then what follows is usually a ban.
> 
> Anyway, the previous discussions are there, so @Kue can read over them.



I was being sarcastic. I'm most likely aware of why they were banned.

If they're the usual suspects, then it's not just reporting. It's actually just against rules. Not pussyfooting around issues seems to me to be just outright saying overtly transphobic shit, which is something I've had to contend with over my course of joining this forum.

Pro tip, calling trans people pedophiles, abusers, monsters, disgusting, sick in the head, deranged, bug chasers, not their actual gender, etc and harassing a trans person on a forum tends to get you in trouble, or banned. The people who tend to do this, also participate in other rule breaking activities that frequently lands them into trouble.


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> If they're the usual suspects, then it's not just reporting. It's actually just against rules. Not pussyfooting around issues seems to me to be just outright saying overtly transphobic shit, which is something I've had to contend with over my course of joining this forum.



The rules are open to intereptation by the mods, so anybody can be banned for anything. Also, *final interpretation rests with the mods.* Not pussyfooting is more about cutting emotions out of a discussion, and discussing the actual subject. There's nothing transphobic about it, unless somebody actually says something f'ed up.

You're personal experience isn't a proof for or against (read up on fallacies).

Anyway, this is off topic, so not really going to argue off topic. Only talking to @Kue so he can read existing threads on the arguments.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> The rules are open to intereptation by the mods, so anybody can be banned for anything. Also, *final interpretation rests with the mods.* Not pussyfooting is more about cutting emotions out of a discussion, and discussing the actual subject. There's nothing transphobic about it, unless somebody actually says something f'ed up.
> 
> You're personal experience isn't a proof for or against (read up on fallacies).
> 
> Anyway, this is off topic, so not really going to argue off topic. Only talking to @Kue so he can read existing threads on the arguments.



Cutting emotions out is, again, an creative interpretation by you. Keep in mind, calling a trans woman a man, is hardly nuanced or without emotion. I'm familiar with your posts, and I don't trust your definition of transphobia at all.

You don't really have proof of it either, telling someone to just look it up isn't a way to do this.


I did it for you, so don't sweat it. Perusing a few threads, the people you might be referring to, aren't coming out so rosey. . People against transgender people or even barely nuanced were much more overt 2 years ago, and it's only gotten better over time.

My personal experience is additional information and context, not proof for or against anything. People who fight against trans rights, tend to be transphobic, _weird, I know._

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Cutting emotions out is, again, an creative interpretation by you. Keep in mind, calling a trans woman a man, is hardly nuanced or without emotion. I'm familiar with your posts, and I don't trust your definition of transphobia at all.
> 
> You don't really have proof of it either, telling someone to just look it up isn't a way to do this.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but you're not going to bait me into a discussion. I too quit discussing the subject a while back, so you're on your own.

Although, I'll leave you some symptoms of phobias for you

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Informative 1


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## Jim (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> People who fight against trans rights, tend to be transphobic, _weird, I know._

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> Sorry, but you're not going to bait me into a discussion. I too quit discussing the subject a while back, so you're on your own.
> 
> Although, I'll leave you some symptoms of phobias for you



Dw. I'll provide the definition from several dictionaries if you care to look back on this.


As well as readings and explanations of transphobia:


Edit: I fucked up on the lexico link, it now goes to the definition I intended to link it to. Which is for -phobia.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Dw. I'll provide the definition from several dictionaries if you care to look back on this.



No need, they pretty much agree with what I said, in a nutshell an irrational fear. In turn it has consequences, which were listed in my link. Let me know when they start suffering the symptoms.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> No need, they pretty much agree with what I said, in a nutshell an irrational fear. In turn it has consequences, which were listed in my link. Let me know when they start suffering the symptoms.



Don't worry, I'll quote the definition for you.




> _an extreme fear or *dislike* of a particular thing or situation, especially one that is not reasonable_






> A phobia is a very strong irrational fear or *hatred* of something.
> 
> 
> -phobia occurs in words which  to a very strong, irrational fear or* hatred of people or things of a particular kind*.



 (I fucked up the link in my previous post coming from this)


> Extreme or irrational fear or *dislike *of a specified thing or group.






> 2 :* intolerance* or aversion for






> an aversion toward, *dislike of, or disrespect* for a thing, idea, person, or group.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Don't worry, I'll quote the definition for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Quoting part which you like and ignoring the actual definition of phobia. Heck even ignroing the medical definition of phobia, because they don't show the symptoms 

Somebody could have a dislike, intolerance or aversion for pedophiles, that doesn't mean they suffer pedophilephobia.

Poor form, I must say. Anyway, I did say I wasn't going to engage in a discussion, so see ya. Have a good day.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Sad! 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> Quoting part which you like and ignoring the actual definition of phobia. Heck even ignroing the medical definition of phobia, because they don't show the symptoms
> 
> Somebody could have a dislike, intolerance or aversion for pedophiles, that doesn't mean they suffer pedophileobia.
> 
> Poor form, I must say. Anyway, I did say I wasn't going to engage in a discussion, so see ya. Have a good day.



The medical definition isn't the sole definition lmao

It's not just a medical condition, it's a belief. Poor showing from you, as expected.

Like, you are trying to argue both with the dictionary, and how we use terms like homophobia/xenophobia/transphobia. This is clearly trolling, but one so poorly done that it makes you look dumb and disingenuous. "I was only pretending to be dumb"

Reactions: Sad! 1


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## SakuraLover16 (May 1, 2021)

Are we really arguing that the same word doesn't have different meanings? I just don't know what to say anymore...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toph (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> No need, they pretty much agree with what I said, in a nutshell an irrational fear.


Because we don't have a root word that specifically denotes a dislike or aversion for something. We only have "-phobia" and its opposite, "-philia." Both suffixes are Greek. The suffix "-philia" comes from the word, "philos", which was one of the several words for love, in this case, describing brotherly love.

The suffix, "-phobia", on the other hand, comes from the Greek word, "phobos", which means "fear." But in modern English, these suffixes have different meanings. In the literal sense, they mean "drawn to" and "repelled by", individually.

Figuratively, they mean, "inclined toward" and "disinclined toward." A good example of the literal usage of the words can be found in, "hydrophobic" and "hydrophilic", which literally means "drawn to water" and "repelled by water" respectively. The figurative uses can be found both in words with positive or neutral connotation ("Anglophile" or "Arachnophobic") and words with negative connotations ("Paedophile" and "Xenophobe").

It's as much a mistake to think that the word "transphobia" denotes a fear as it is to think that "hemophilia" denotes a love. That's just not how the "-phobia" suffix works.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Jim (May 1, 2021)

Historia said:


> It's as much a mistake to think that the word "transphobia" denotes a fear as it is to think that "hemophilia" denotes a love


but how else would i describe my love for blood? 
j/k

Reactions: Funny 2


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## reiatsuflow (May 1, 2021)

Has anyone come up with cisphobia yet?


I was joking, 2021.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kue (May 1, 2021)

I said this earlier, but phobias don't have to entail specific fear of an individual.

If you have an irrational fear that trans people have infiltrated the medical field, or there's a kabal of them trying to control culture, etc, then this still classifies as an irrational fear, thus it is a phobia.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Six (May 1, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Has anyone come up with cisphobia yet?
> 
> 
> I was joking, 2021.


9/10 odds that cisphobia is acceptable.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jim (May 1, 2021)

Kue said:


> I said this earlier, but phobias don't have to entail specific fear of an individual.
> 
> If you have an irrational fear that trans people have infiltrated the medical field, or there's a kabal of them trying to control culture, etc, then this still classifies as an irrational fear, thus it is a phobia.


is there a phobia of being abnormal? 
j/k


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## Death Certificate (May 1, 2021)

Well, some people just ripped the mask off and went full transphobic in the last pages.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Superstars (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> *EXPOSURE of WHAT?* Doctors proceed treatment *on information provided by the patient*, there's enough safety protocols to make sure it's on that is informed, and is something best for them. Everything said here is addressed in the document I provided, if it's not satisfactory, then a large majority of psychiatry and health care isn't up to your obscene standards.


The bold answered your own question. People need more exposure to LIFE so they can FULLY and TRULY get info about themselves. Not make half baked decisions on their own immaturity and other people's fallible assessments of that underdeveloped data. Circular reasoning based on half wittism.


Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Trans people are shunned though. Those on the other side treat them as either mentally ill or as vermin.


Yeah, join the club. Welcome to the world, where people of every group experience persecution. Shocking, I know.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 1, 2021)

Superstars said:


> Yeah, join the club. Welcome to the world, where people of every group experience persecution. Shocking, I know.


Not really. if anything trans people are among the last group of which its still tolerated to treat them like vermin. No matter how much the far right might prefer otherwise gays and many racial minorities are on the road of getting accepted or are at least in a position where overtly mistreating them has consequences. 

Making overt anti hispanic legislation, or talking about jailing people's parents for accepting their kids are lesbian then there'd likely be a lot of controversy. Not so much with trans people.


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

Superstars said:


> The bold answered your own question. People need more exposure to LIFE so they can FULLY and TRULY get info about themselves. Not make half baked decisions on their own immaturity and other people's fallible assessments of that underdeveloped data. Circular reasoning based on half wittism.
> 
> Yeah, join the club. Welcome to the world, where people of every group experience persecution. Shocking, I know.



The soc states that going through naturalized puberty for trans people isn't a neutral decision. It's not, it's the same as forcibly transitioning a cis person.

Do you need life experience to know and live as male? As a straight person? No, you just are, and you have an inherent sense of that to begin with. The same goes for trans people when we understand the language behind it.

Every group experiences hardship.but some more than other and at higher rates. Y'all are dense at not understanding this. If proportionally people of a certain group are being treated poorly and on the receiving end of discrimination at higher rates than others, then it's a problem that needs rectifying.


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## Superstars (May 1, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Not really. if anything trans people are among the last group of which its still tolerated to treat them like vermin. No matter how much the far right might prefer otherwise gays and many racial minorities are on the road of getting accepted or are at least in a position where overtly mistreating them has consequences.
> 
> Making overt anti hispanic legislation, or talking about jailing people's parents for accepting their kids are lesbian then there'd likely be a lot of controversy. Not so much with trans people.


Wow, you didn't say anything that refutes the fact that everyone from all groups experience persecution.

Someone get my man Ruth a Cell phone, set map quest directions...to EARTH.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> The soc states that going through naturalized puberty for trans people isn't a neutral decision. It's not, it's the same as forcibly transitioning a cis person.


Well that's just bullshit.

Comparing a natural process to outside intervention and saying they are the same is lunacy.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Sad! 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

Superstars said:


> Wow, you didn't say anything that refutes the fact that everyone from all groups experience persecution.
> 
> Someone get my man Ruth a Cell phone, set map quest directions...to mother EARTH.



Oh do you know people who have the potential to go to prison for supporting their child that follow health care standards?



ShinAkuma said:


> Well that's just bullshit.
> 
> Comparing a natural process to outside intervention and saying they are the same is lunacy.



Being trans is something that happens naturally that requires medical intervention if the patient wants that. I don't want trans people to go through the same shit Superstar here accuse trans people of doing.

Stop forcibly transitioning kids


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Being trans is something that happens naturally that requires medical intervention if the patient wants that. I don't want trans people to go through the same shit y'all accuse trans people of doing.


Ok but this has nothing to do with the fallacy you just tried to peddle.

You can argue that intervention into a natural process can be beneficial, you cannot argue that a natural process is the same as outside intervention.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok but this has nothing to do with the fallacy you just tried to peddle.
> 
> You can argue that intervention into a natural process can be beneficial, you cannot argue that a natural process is the same as outside intervention.



I'll argue whatever the hell I want to argue, whine about it to someone who cares


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> I'll argue whatever the hell I want to argue, whine about it to someone who cares




I don't give a darn what you argue, I'm just pointing out how dumb the argument you make is.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't give a darn what you argue, I'm just pointing out how dumb the argument you make is.


I don't give a shit about what someone like you thinks. Go soak your head, and by that I mean go to the nearest water source and pour the most glacial temperature water you can get onto your head

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> I don't give a


Rarely seen footage of your arguments being formed...

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Jim (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Go soak your head, and by that I mean go to the nearest water source and pour the most glacial temperature water you can get onto your head


wha? you're telling me that phrase isn't advocating for suicide?!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> Rarely seen footage of your arguments being formed...


Your politics is the same as your character: Shit.


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Jim said:


> wha? you're telling me that phrase isn't advocating for suicide?!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Your politics is the same as your character: Shit.


- Creates dishonest arguments 
- Tries to lecture about "character"

Reactions: Winner 2 | Sad! 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> No need, they pretty much agree with what I said, in a nutshell an irrational fear. In turn it has consequences, which were listed in my link. Let me know when they start suffering the symptoms.


Didn’t you know it’s commonplace to use third and fourth tier definitions of a word to help support your narrative?

For all my life I thought acrophobia meant I had an irrational fear of heights, according to today’s use of the word phobia, it means I don’t want heights to exist at all.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Kue (May 1, 2021)

Superstars said:


> The bold answered your own question. People need more exposure to LIFE so they can FULLY and TRULY get info about themselves. Not make half baked decisions on their own immaturity and other people's fallible assessments of that underdeveloped data. Circular reasoning based on half wittism.
> 
> Yeah, join the club. Welcome to the world, where people of every group experience persecution. Shocking, I know.



Underdeveloped data?

You know if you were to debunk decades of research and medical consensus among doctors and psychiatrists, you would become world renown for proving thousands of experts wrong.

Why not go and disprove all this people instead of posting on a Japanese cartoon forum? Or is it more likely that you are blatantly wrong and these experts are correct?


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Didn’t you know it’s commonplace to use third and fourth tier definitions of a word to help support your narrative?
> 
> For all my life I thought acrophobia meant I had an irrational fear of heights, according to today’s use of the word phobia, it means I don’t want heights to exist at all.


That's an interesting observation.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gin (May 1, 2021)

you gotta pick your battles natty

responding to each and every one of these halfwits is just going to piss you off

you could always try my method of putting 90% of them on ignore and posting "trumpshits  " or something similar directed at no one in particular

very efficient and means you don't have to directly acknowledge them


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> - Creates dishonest arguments
> - Tries to lecture about "character"



Remind me again to which side wants it to be illegal to treat a minority as they are and humanely. Your opinion on what makes an honest and dishonest argument is so fucking broken that it's debatable it existed in the first place.

It being natural isn't a good thing. Biology nature fucking sucks and constantly fucks around, intervention to fix it to make ourselves better and happier and healthier through ethical means should be done.  



Kisame3rd14 said:


> Didn’t you know it’s commonplace to use third and fourth tier definitions of a word to help support your narrative?
> 
> For all my life I thought acrophobia meant I had an irrational fear of heights, according to today’s use of the word phobia, it means I don’t want heights to exist at all.



For all my life I though ring meant a band that goes around my finger, but today apparently it means a phone tone that sounds when someone else calls. Wow the more I know.


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Remind me again to which side wants it to be illegal to treat a minority as they are and humanely.


Not my side so I don't know wtf you're jibajabbing about.



Natty said:


> It being natural isn't a good thing. Biology nature fucking sucks and constantly fucks around, intervention to fix it to make ourselves better and happier and healthier through ethical means should be done.





ShinAkuma said:


> Ok but this has nothing to do with the fallacy you just tried to peddle.
> 
> You can argue that intervention into a natural process can be beneficial, you cannot argue that a natural process is the same as outside intervention.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

Gin said:


> you gotta pick your battles natty
> 
> responding to each and every one of these halfwits is just going to piss you off
> 
> ...



Every trans related thread on NF deserves to be set on fire with the most petty of bullshit with all the bigots and myself inside of it. I care so little and I will khaleesi my way out of this fucking terrible forum


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> Not my side so I don't know wtf you're jibajabbing about.



(PST it's superstar's side, not everything is about you)

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> (PST it's superstar's side, not everything is about you)



- Quote me with a response
- Says it's about somebody else

Reactions: Like 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> - Quote me with a response
> - Says it's about somebody else



you're saying what I think is a dishonest argument


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> you're saying what I think is a dishonest argument

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


>



Here's an honest question : what do you think of YM rights


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## Jim (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> It being natural isn't a good thing. Biology nature fucking sucks and constantly fucks around, intervention to fix it to make ourselves better and happier and healthier through ethical means should be done.


i don't really find humans interacting with themselves to be unnatural anyway. It's not like they are using tools magically appeared from another dimension. They also didn't acquire the intellect to do so from magic either. Forming societies, using constructed tools, experimentation, and much more are all human nature.

forbidding humans from acting like humans seems more unnatural to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Here's an honest question : what do you think of YM rights


What's "YM"?


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> What's "YM"?



YOUR MAMA

BBOOOOOM GET FUCKED

Reactions: Funny 3 | Winner 2


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> YOUR MAMA


All mamas should have equal rights with your daddas.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Superstars (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> The soc states that going through naturalized puberty for trans people isn't a neutral decision. It's not, it's the same as forcibly transitioning a cis person.
> 
> Do you need life experience to know and live as male? As a straight person? No, you just are, and you have an inherent sense of that to begin with. The same goes for trans people when we understand the language behind it.
> 
> Every group experiences hardship.but some more than other and at higher rates. Y'all are dense at not understanding this. If proportionally people of a certain group are being treated poorly and on the receiving end of discrimination at higher rates than others, then it's a problem that needs rectifying.


Still doesn't change the fact that it's ill informed decisions not fully fleshed out. Outside party can't make up for it.


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> All mamas should have equal rights with your daddas.



You can't compare the rights of your mama to your papa, you're being intellectual dishonest and cannot make that argument 

Welcome to the field of combat on nf where we pit our minds against one another to see who is the victor where I am the judge and jury and you've already lost before you started. You will never amount to the last challenger, Candace and Joe.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> You can't compare the rights of your mama to your papa, you're being intellectual dishonest and cannot make that argument


Sure I can.

See the distinction is yours, not mine. I believe in peoples rights.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Superstars (May 1, 2021)

Kue said:


> Underdeveloped data?
> 
> You know if you were to debunk decades of research and medical consensus among doctors and psychiatrists, you would become world renown for proving thousands of experts wrong.
> 
> Why not go and disprove all this people instead of posting on a Japanese cartoon forum? Or is it more likely that you are blatantly wrong and these experts are correct?


I know your intimidated when truth hits you. But it's just the facts of life, that people learn more about themselves as they tread this race.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

ShinAkuma said:


> Sure I can.
> 
> See the distinction is yours, not mine. I believe in peoples rights.


Poor showing, I never expected your losing speech to be as great as Candace's, but I still ended up disappointed


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Poor showing


You were defeated before you began.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> where I am the judge and jury and you've already lost before you started.



There's only one judge on this forum and he is one who shall not be named (tagged).

Anyway, that line of thinking isn't healthy for discussions. Keep it mind, if you like.



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure I can.
> 
> See the distinction is yours, not mine.* I believe in peoples rights.*

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> There's only one judge on this forum and he is one who shall not be named (tagged).
> 
> Anyway, that line of thinking isn't healthy for discussions. Keep it mind, if you like.


I don't trust the opinion of someone who can't seperate a medical definition with a dictionary one, or that a word can have more than one meaning. Just a personal thing, you must understand.

More serious, if I've been given a dime for the amount of times I've read "I believe in a person's rights", with the addendum  "but" in regards to trans people, I'd be rich. Not saying this is how Shin thinks or believes, just stating that it's usually the case with these things

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> I don't trust the opinion of someone who can't seperate a medical definition with a dictionary one, or that a word can have more than one meaning. Just a personal thing, you must understand.
> 
> More serious, if I've been given a dime for the amount of times I've read "I believe in a person's rights", with the addendum  "but" in regards to trans people, I'd be rich. Not saying this is how Shin thinks or believes, just stating that it's usually the case with these things



Still rolling with that (there is no real difference, irrational fear has with it consequences, added definitions are reach, just like me claiming peadophilephobia. I was merely dismissing your loose use of transphobia as a form of dismissal of other people's arguments)

Be glad I'm not really interested in discussing definitions (baited into this discussion). You do you, I was trying to help you seperate emotion from the discussion, if you don't want to it's your choice. See ya.

Edit: ftr, I do believe there is something called transphobia, I just don't agree with how loosely some people decide to throw the term around. You disagree with me, so you must be a transphobe type arguments don't work for me.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## afg (May 1, 2021)

Transphobes love a lot of things, but they especially love the following two things:
1. Denying they’re transphobic 
2. Clinging to athletics as their last resort to espouse negative sentiment toward trans people in a sort of intellectually masturbatory catharsis knowing that there are a lot more people in the “””middle ground””” who will agree with them

I’m of the mind that until you have demonstrated that you actually respect the dignity of trans people and make a genuine effort to empathize with them, you’re not worth really talking to on any issue pertaining to them. It’s a quicksand of bigotry and poisons the well from the outset, because every logistical component of an issue will be bent, warped and squirmed around in order to align with an anti-trans narrative.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

afg said:


> Transphobes love a lot of things, but they especially love the following two things:
> 1. Denying they’re transphobic
> 2. Clinging to athletics as their last resort to espouse negative sentiment toward trans people in a sort of intellectually masturbatory catharsis knowing that there are a lot more people in the “””middle ground””” who will agree with them
> 
> I’m of the mind that until you have demonstrated that you actually respect the dignity of trans people and make a genuine effort to empathize with them, you’re not worth really talking to on any issue pertaining to them. It’s a quicksand of bigotry and poisons the well from the outset, because every logistical component of an issue will be bent, warped and squirmed around in order to align with an anti-trans narrative.



An alt

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## afg (May 1, 2021)

dergeist said:


> An alt


If I named myself “right” I’m sure my alt would be more to your fancy

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ~Gesy~ (May 1, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 2


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## Kue (May 1, 2021)

Superstars said:


> I know your intimidated when truth hits you. But it's just the facts of life, that people learn more about themselves as they tread this race.



So you won't confront the experts and become famous? Sounds like you are the one that is intimidated.


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## dergeist (May 1, 2021)

afg said:


> If I named myself “right” I’m sure *my alt would be more to your fancy*



I prefer left, but you do you.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

Jenner can eat shit. I'll never forget how she disagreed with same sex marriage and then got surprised Trump was bad to lgbt people, then voted for him again. Might as well ask Milo Yiannoupolis on what he thinks about gay people.


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## ShinAkuma (May 1, 2021)

A trans women and an athlete.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Death Certificate (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Might as well ask Milo Yiannoupolis on what he thinks about gay people.



He's now trying to be "a straight, Christian man" and pushing for conversion therapies

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Natty (May 1, 2021)

Death Certificate said:


> He's now trying to be "a straight, Christian man" and pushing for conversion therapies



Lmao, I'm surprised and also not surprised he's still trying to grift after losing so much footing and respect from almost every group he's ever associated with.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pilaf (May 1, 2021)

Hmmm. Come to think of it this subject may be worth re-evaluating. Mostly because my gf is trans and I wouldn't want anyone making her feel unwelcome.


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## reiatsuflow (May 1, 2021)

She's a republican all right.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Yuji (May 1, 2021)

maybe she is woman of the year after all

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## reiatsuflow (May 1, 2021)

Yuji said:


> maybe she is woman of the year after all



I keep forgetting that wasn't just a fever dream I had.

Also her face is looking pretty sketchy, I don't know why these people do that to themselves. I'm not talking about whatever transitioning surgeries she had, if she had any, I mean the plastic surgery stuff. Even the immortal tom cruise is starting a look a little puffier and wider in the face than normal trying to keep that young look instead of embrace old age. (or maybe he's on HGH or something, I've heard that stuff can puff your face a bit)


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## reiatsuflow (May 1, 2021)

and of course poor zack effron rip


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 1, 2021)

Pilaf said:


> Hmmm. Come to think of it this subject may be worth re-evaluating. Mostly because my gf is trans and I wouldn't want anyone making her feel unwelcome.


That would make you more qualified than most of us to discuss the issues.

 How do you personally feel about professional competition between biological women and transgender women? Also, where do you think the line is drawn between disagreement and hate? For example, I’ve seen some people claim that it’s transphobic for a heterosexual to not want to date a transgender of the opposite identity or gender, do you agree with that?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## SakuraLover16 (May 1, 2021)

Natty said:


> Jenner can eat shit. I'll never forget how she disagreed with same sex marriage and then got surprised Trump was bad to lgbt people, then voted for him again. Might as well ask Milo Yiannoupolis on what he thinks about gay people.


Didn't Jenner rear end a woman pushing her into oncoming traffic where she was quickly struck by a hummer and killed. She is basically a republican all the way through. 

Oh did you hear about Milo LMAO. So apparently he "demoted" his husband to a housemate and is now a born again christian.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bielec (May 2, 2021)

I wonder how it should be solved in elite athletics, where from what I know, huge amount of people there take steroids, sarms, testosterone, even thought it's supposedly banned. Would transgender people be checked more strictly? Is it fair to do that, when non trans people often abuse these things? Most of the things I've read do no not tak into account that athletes use performance enhancing drugs.


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## aiyanah (May 2, 2021)

Can't wait for 20 years to pass and for all you man espousing this trans thing to be shown up as the villains you are for creating new lifetime patients for big pharma to profit off of for a generation while all the people you encouraged into this stupid decision grapple with daily thoughts and attempts of suicide.

I will be here to remind you that you encouraged this madness.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Dislike 1


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## Death Certificate (May 2, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> Can't wait for 20 years to pass and for all you man espousing this trans thing to be shown up as the villains you are for creating new lifetime patients for big pharma to profit off of for a generation while all the people you encouraged into this stupid decision grapple with daily thoughts and attempts of suicide.
> 
> I will be here to remind you that you encouraged this madness.



With that much sodium in this post, I doubt you will last half a decade

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 2, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> Can't wait for 20 years to pass and for all you man espousing this trans thing to be shown up as the villains you are for creating new lifetime patients for big pharma to profit off of for a generation while all the people you encouraged into this stupid decision grapple with daily thoughts and attempts of suicide.
> 
> I will be here to remind you that you encouraged this madness.


Seems more likely that your side is the one who is getting portrayed as villains. Both for ridiculous laws like jailing the parents of trans parents who are too accepting or making society so hostile to trans people that their thought wanders to suicide.

I wander if other fools also said such things about the gay community. That they couldn't wait for 20 years to pass and all those people wanting to give gay people their rights be shown as villains.


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## Kue (May 2, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> Can't wait for 20 years to pass and for all you man espousing this trans thing to be shown up as the villains you are for creating new lifetime patients for big pharma to profit off of for a generation while all the people you encouraged into this stupid decision grapple with daily thoughts and attempts of suicide.
> 
> I will be here to remind you that you encouraged this madness.



Sounds like we need medicare for all rather than having trans people be punished for the sins of capitalism.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## aiyanah (May 2, 2021)

Kue said:


> Sounds like we need medicare for all rather than having trans people be punished for the sins of capitalism.


it's their own sins. big pharma simply took advantage of rampant idiocy.

Reactions: Like 3 | Dislike 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 2, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> it's their own sins. big pharma simply took advantage of rampant idiocy.


Transgenders knowing they are transgenders being a sin. How interesting

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Eros (May 2, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Transgenders knowing they are transgenders being a sin. How interesting


It's always the person's fault for not being part of the status quo of course.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kue (May 2, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> it's their own sins. big pharma simply took advantage of rampant idiocy.


How is transitioning 'rampant idiocy'?

How do you know more than thousands of doctors and psychiatrists?


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## dergeist (May 2, 2021)

@reiatsuflow you might have been right about the cisphobia

Reactions: Funny 3


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 2, 2021)

Kue said:


> How is transitioning 'rampant idiocy'?
> 
> How do you know more than thousands of doctors and psychiatrists?


Big pharma profit a shitload from the transgender community because they need constant medication.  The trans population had been skyrocketing in the west recently.  I can't help to think that there are transtrenders amongst the ranks.  Some people legitimately have gender dysphoria, while I feel the others would have been considered themselves emo 10 years ago because they just follow what's trendy.  

As for the topic of where transwomen should compete in.  It depends on what's on the line, in for fun competitions in schools, there is no big issue.  In grand stages like the Olympics and the world cup, I don't see it ever happening because non-western countries will vote against it.  The world outside of the west is so culturally conservative that it makes Republicans look like Bernie Sanders.  East Asia is probably the most progressive place outside of the west, and transgender folks are still mistreated there.  You aren't considered your desired gender until you pass and have full surgery.  A non-passing pre-op transwoman entering the woman's onsen or woman's bathroom will get shunned.  Then there is Middle East and Africa where you could get killed for being trans.  Remember how Sepp Blatter was voted to be the head of FIFA even though the western countries voted against him?  Well, rest of the world voted for him.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallax (May 2, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> Can't wait for 20 years to pass and for all you man espousing this trans thing to be shown up as the villains you are for creating new lifetime patients for big pharma to profit off of for a generation while all the people you encouraged into this stupid decision grapple with daily thoughts and attempts of suicide.
> 
> I will be here to remind you that you encouraged this madness.


youre a fucking moron go back to smoking weed

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Kue (May 2, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> Big pharma profit a shitload from the transgender community because they need constant medication.  The trans population had been skyrocketing in the west recently.  I can't help to think that there are transtrenders amongst the ranks.  Some people legitimately have gender dysphoria, while I feel the others would have been considered themselves emo 10 years ago because they just follow what's trendy.



So why don't we pass policies like Medicare for All to make these treatments more affordable? Preventing trans people from getting treatment will still not do anything to stop the presence of big pharma. This is just concern trolling. And then again, this is why we have doctors to diagnose these issues. Not everyone that wants puberty blockers will get it.



> As for the topic of where transwomen should compete in.  It depends on what's on the line, in for fun competitions in schools, there is no big issue.  In grand stages like the Olympics and the world cup, I don't see it ever happening because non-western countries will vote against it.  The world outside of the west is so culturally conservative that it makes Republicans look like Bernie Sanders.  East Asia is probably the most progressive place outside of the west, and transgender folks are still mistreated there.  You aren't considered your desired gender until you pass and have full surgery.  A non-passing pre-op transwoman entering the woman's onsen or woman's bathroom will get shunned.  Then there is Middle East and Africa where you could get killed for being trans.  Remember how Sepp Blatter was voted to be the head of FIFA even though the western countries voted against him?  Well, rest of the world voted for him.



Trans people can already compete in the Olympics.


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## Kue (May 2, 2021)

God, I'm getting tired of having trans debates with people who think they are informed about it after a Joe Rogan podcast.

Surface level research would already be enough for someone to know that trans people can compete in the Olympics. I'm so done lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 2, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> Big pharma profit a shitload from the transgender community because they need constant medication. The trans population had been skyrocketing in the west recently. I can't help to think that there are transtrenders amongst the ranks. Some people legitimately have gender dysphoria, while I feel the others would have been considered themselves emo 10 years ago because they just follow what's trendy.


Trust me, no one thinks its trendy to enter a community where you constantly have to deal with people fanatically striving to ensure you'll never ever be happy or accepted in this world. Being a trans people is about the most dangerous minority you can enter. Aside from the people thinking you're vermin you also have to deal with people who might not want to overtly mistreat you but still consider you a freak. Its not something you'd just do at a whim.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 2, 2021)

Kue said:


> So why don't we pass policies like Medicare for All to make these treatments more affordable? Preventing trans people from getting treatment will still not do anything to stop the presence of big pharma. This is just concern trolling. And then again, this is why we have doctors to diagnose these issues. Not everyone that wants puberty blockers will get it.
> 
> 
> 
> Trans people can already compete in the Olympics.


You act like I am a Republican.  I am close to social democrat so I agree with economically progressive politics including medicare for all, I just think identity politics from both the left and the right are over the board.  The US already spent more money than the rest of the world on healthcare but our healthcare is still garbage.  Unfortunately, the middlemen in healthcare, the insurance agents in the private sector have too much income, and we have employer-provided private healthcare, if we lose our job, we lose our healthcare too, which sucks.

Doctors are too afraid to suggest that it could be a phase given the current identity-obssessed culture.  Some people should be given hormones while others are trenders who would have claimed to be emo 10 years ago.  There are "MtF" lesbians on lesbian dating apps that don't even shave their facial hair.  Do you really don't believe transtrenders exist or do you think they identify as bearded ladies?




Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Trust me, no one thinks its trendy to enter a community where you constantly have to deal with people fanatically striving to ensure you'll never ever be happy or accepted in this world. Being a trans people is about the most dangerous minority you can enter. Aside from the people thinking you're vermin you also have to deal with people who might not want to overtly mistreat you but still consider you a freak. Its not something you'd just do at a whim.


For some people, it is a trend.  How else do they come up with neopronouns?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

I don't believe that a 19 year old is having 9/10 quality of sex.  Boy, doesn't yet know what 9/10 sex is.


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## Jim (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't believe that a 19 year old is having 9/10 quality of sex.  Boy, doesn't yet know what 9/10 sex is.


19 year olds are too young to be exploring their sexuality anyway


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## dergeist (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I don't believe that a 19 year old is having 9/10 quality of sex.  Boy, doesn't yet know what 9/10 sex is.



Who knows when he started and how many he's been through? Although, generally speaking I agree with you, however if we say he's mistaken we would likely be labelled as suffering from some sort of phobia or something.

Reactions: Like 1


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

Jim said:


> 19 year olds are too young to be exploring their sexuality anyway



I don't think people should be allowed to have sex until they're 30. It's too dangerous.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Jim said:


> 19 year olds are too young to be exploring their sexuality anyway


That's adult age where I'm from. You can marry and kill people in war! Hell exploration starts as early as 14-15 for many.


dergeist said:


> Who knows when he started and how many he's been through? Although, generally speaking I agree with you, however if we say he's mistaken we would likely be labelled as suffering from some sort of phobia or something.


Well he does say he's almost never single and consider himself "sexually experienced" so maybe he's ahead of the curve.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kue (May 2, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> You act like I am a Republican.  I am close to social democrat so I agree with economically progressive politics including medicare for all, I just think identity politics from both the left and the right are over the board.  The US already spent more money than the rest of the world on healthcare but our healthcare is still garbage.  Unfortunately, the middlemen in healthcare, the insurance agents in the private sector have too much income, and we have employer-provided private healthcare, if we lose our job, we lose our healthcare too, which sucks.
> 
> Doctors are too afraid to suggest that it could be a phase given the current identity-obssessed culture.  Some people should be given hormones while others are trenders who would have claimed to be emo 10 years ago.  There are "MtF" lesbians on lesbian dating apps that don't even shave their facial hair.  Do you really don't believe transtrenders exist or do you think they identify as bearded ladies?



Do you have any proof that identity politics has gone overboard? Have you ever thought that the media you consume makes you think this is a bigger problem than what it is? I'm just reminding you that this isn't 2016 anymore by the way.

Have you heard of the nutpicking concept?


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

Kue said:


> So why don't we pass policies like Medicare for All to make these treatments more affordable?


The treatment becomes more affordable for the patient, for everyone else it’s a 20% increase in taxes. But if you propose that we add those taxes to things like fast food, soda, candy, junk food, and high fructose products then I would have no argument against it.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> The treatment becomes more affordable for the patient, for everyone else it’s a 20% increase in taxes. But if you propose that we add those taxes to things like fast food, soda, candy, junk food, and high fructose products then I would have no argument against it.


I do. That type of tax would affect poor communities the most while being a mild annoyance for everyone else.

Since Covid hit, the US has spent significantly more than price it would cost for very affordable healthcare.


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 2, 2021)

Kue said:


> Do you have any proof that identity politics has gone overboard? Have you ever thought that the media you consume makes you think this is a bigger problem than what it is? I'm just reminding you that this isn't 2016 anymore by the way.
> 
> Have you heard of the nutpicking concept?


It is overboard from both the left and the right.  There was never a problem with transwomen in women's bathroom but Republicans introduce bathroom bills anyways.  By having this unnecessary culture war between the cultural left and cultural right, the government diverts your attention away from economic inequality and disastrous foreign policies.  Both parties create problems out of nothing and have the media focus on identity politics than real issues, the diversion is working surprisingly well.  The economic policies are exactly the same between Democrats and Republicans, it's just that Democrats are more pro-social-justice.  The top tax rate is still 37%, which is too low, and Biden isn't doing shit about it.  Democrats are more competent than Republicans though, but the bar is low because Republicans suck so bad.

I am not nutpicking.  There is a reason why the trans population multiplied.  I don't know what the psychiatrists are telling their patients, but obtaining hormones is surprisingly easy.  An AMAB person can just tell the doctor that they want to be a hot girl and the doctor prescribes the medicine.  Who doesn't want to be a young hot chick?  Even some cis dudes will answer yes.  Young hot chicks are easily one of the most privileged group in society.  Maybe the doctor should ask if the person ever see themselves as an old woman or ugly woman, then they will get a clearer answer on whether the person is following a trend or genuinely have gender dysphoria.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> I do. That type of tax would affect poor communities the most while being a mild annoyance for everyone else.


Those things are not essential to health and should be consumed less anyway, a few less Big Macs and gummy worms in the diet doesn’t hurt anyone. Not to mention all of the aspects of health that are improved by that proposal. The low income communities would see the most benefit from a reduction of those items.


~Gesy~ said:


> Since Covid hit, the US has spent significantly more than price it would cost for very affordable healthcare.


We already spend too much as it was before covid.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Those things are not essential to health and should be consumed less anyway


Poor people can't afford to be healthy. If I  have a little over 100 dollars to last the week and mouths to feed. Saving money by spending money on cheap junk is in fact-- essential...unless you condone stealing food out of grocery markets like the kids in my old neighborhood used to do. Either way, streets gotta eat. 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> We already spend too much as it was before covid.


My point exactly. Citizen health isn't a priority..but if it was money, can easily be moved around. It isn't as difficult as you think.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> Poor people can't afford to be healthy. If I have a little over 100 dollars to last the week and mouths to feed. Saving money by spending money on cheap junk is in fact-- essential...unless you condone stealing food out of grocery markets like the kids in my old neighborhood used to do. Either way, streets gotta eat.


Candy, high fructose, fast food, and junk food are not saving any money they are an additional and unnecessary expense. 

Preparing the kind of food you get from fast food places like burgers and fries is actually the cheaper option. You can buy a lb of beef, a sack of potatoes, and a pack of buns for $7-$9. You would come out with more than double of what you would have got for that money at a fast food restaurant.


~Gesy~ said:


> My point exactly. Citizen health isn't a priority..but if it was money can easily be moved around. It isn't as difficult as you think.


How is Citizen health not a priority when we spend more than any other comparable countries?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Preparing the kind of food you get from fast food places like burgers and fries is actually the cheaper option. You can buy a lb of beef, a sack of potatoes, and a pack of buns for $7-$9. You would come out with more than double of what you would have got for that money at a fast food restaurant.


Lb of beef alone cost $7-$9 .  A sack of potatoes is around 3 and buns is about 2-3. You're not saving much. Especially if you're working heavy hours and don't have time to cook so you do the ol' "leave the money on the table for when they come home" trick.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> How is Citizen health not a priority when we spend more than any other comparable countries?





> Many European countries follow the U.S. in healthcare spending, but the big difference is most of that cost is subsidized by the government while the U.S. relies on costly, private health insurance plans






~Gesy~ said:


> money can easily be moved around. It isn't as difficult as you think.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 2, 2021)

Don't see how big pharma is making a killing off of what amounts to less than 1% of the population.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

Yeah it's not expensive to eat healthy. Oatmeal is dirt cheap. Bananas, vegetables, some fruits are dirt cheap. Lentils and etc are dirt cheap. You can get a giant family rotisserie chicken for like 5 dollars at walmart or costco, food isn't expensive.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 2, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Yeah it's not expensive to eat healthy. Oatmeal is dirt cheap. Bananas, vegetables, some fruits are dirt cheap. Lentils and etc are dirt cheap. You can get a giant family rotisserie chicken for like 5 dollars at walmart or costco, food isn't expensive.



I spend like 500 on food every month. 

It's tough being a fat ass out here.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> Lb of beef alone cost $7-$9 . A sack of potatoes is around 3 and buns is about 2-3.


Who does the food shopping at your grandmothers house @~Gesy~ because I get 1lb of 85/15 from whole foods for $5.50. You can get 80/20 at a standard market for $4 and that’s when it’s not on sale or in a family pack.




~Gesy~ said:


> Especially if you're working heavy hours and don't have time to cook so you do the ol' "leave the money on the table for when they come home" trick.


A child old enough to buy fast food for themselves has the ability to put a burger in a pan or oven.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> A child old enough to buy fast food for themselves has the ability to put a burger in a pan or oven.


In a world where 4 year olds are online shopping? Naaaah lol

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

Why are we even talking about something as complicated and potentially expensive as cooking, just dump a bunch of oatmeal into a thermos of water, let it sit overnight, put in some nuts or raisins in the morning to prevent your gag reflex from vomiting it up and then chow down on that paste, done and done. If you really need to you can wash it down with another glass of raw eggs.


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

For your cheat day you can buy yourself a potato.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Yeah it's not expensive to eat healthy. Oatmeal is dirt cheap. Bananas, vegetables, some fruits are dirt cheap. Lentils and etc are dirt cheap. You can get a giant family rotisserie chicken for like 5 dollars at walmart or costco, food isn't expensive.


Food is only expensive when you have a huge processed sugar addiction, and/or have to buy name brand everything and avoid the sales. 


~Gesy~ said:


> In a world where 4 year olds are online shopping? Naaaah lol


You must have low expectations to be so dismissive of the ability that low income persons have to function.


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I spend like 500 on food every month.
> 
> It's tough being a fat ass out here.



Pop quiz tough guy.

Have you ever once bought off brand oreos?


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

I was like "$4.00 for a box of brand oreos? What am I, an oil baron?"

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 2, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Pop quiz tough guy.
> 
> Have you ever once bought off brand oreos?



I don't think so? 

I probably have at some point but i don't even buy oreos that often.


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

Last time I was at trader joes I bought like 30 bananas and it cost -25 cents, they gave me a quarter. I don't know how people make profits off bananas.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Last time I was at trader joes I bought like 30 bananas and it cost -25 cents, they gave me a quarter. I don't know how people make profits off bananas.


It’s actually Walmart’s number one selling product.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## reiatsuflow (May 2, 2021)

Then I got one orange and it cost like 2 dollars.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> You must have low expectations to be so dismissive of the ability that low income persons have to function.


Quite the opposite.  I'm amazed by the ingenuity of low income people. They're very talented at going further than their supposed to with a limited amount of resources. I don't think I would marry someone who didn't grow up poor.

Doesn't mean I'll judge them if they want to spend 5 bucks on mcdonalds.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> Doesn't mean I'll judge them if they want to spend 5 bucks on mcdonalds.


Taxing junk food is not judging low income people, it’s incentive for all people to eat healthier, thus reducing rates of a poor diet which in turn helps reduce obesity, cancer, preterm labor, diabetes, etc. Most of which is more abundant in low income neighborhoods, therefore those residents are the biggest beneficiaries of the proposal.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> Taxing junk food is not judging low income people, it’s incentive for all people to eat healthier, thus reducing rates of a poor diet which in turn helps reduce obesity, cancer, preterm labor, diabetes, etc. Most of which is more abundant in low income neighborhoods, therefore those residents are the biggest beneficiaries of the proposal.


Sugar is more addicting than crack. They'll just buy some off-brands or something.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> Sugar is more addicting than crack. They'll just buy some off-brands or something.


First, 39% people responded that they drank less of the taxed drinks, that number is extremely significant. Second, they surveyed 500 out of 6 million people that reside in the Philadelphia metro, that number is completely insignificant.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> First, 39% people responded that they drank less of the taxed drinks, that number is extremely significant. Second, they surveyed 500 out of 6 million people that reside in the Philadelphia metro, that number is completely insignificant.


Less..as in change in drinking habits only happens slightly. People are still drinking sodas despite the tax.

But this is off topic . I forgot this thread was about transgenders for a sec.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

We strayed a bit but the point is, Medicare for all would be favorable to transgender people and future people that want to transition, as well as everyone else. It makes perfect sense to place the financial burden of Medicare for all on junk food and candy which are both luxuries and a major contributor to medical bills.

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (May 2, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> Then I got one orange and it cost like 2 dollars.



I got five for around $1.50 earlier today.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 2, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> We strayed a bit but the point is, Medicare for all would be favorable to transgender people and future people that want to transition, as well as everyone else. It makes perfect sense to place the financial burden of Medicare for all on junk food and candy which are both luxuries and a major contributor to medical bills.


Medicare for all would be favorable for anyone but the uber wealthy. So yes it be favorable for transgenders too.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 2, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> Medicare for all would be favorable for anyone but the uber wealthy. So yes it be favorable for transgenders too.


If you read the paragraph I said exactly that. And in the system I propose it isn’t unfavorable for anyone.


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## aiyanah (May 3, 2021)

Kue said:


> How is transitioning 'rampant idiocy'?
> 
> How do you know more than thousands of doctors and psychiatrists?


the child believes they are a dinosaur. why don't we make them a fossil?
the child believes they are superman. why don't we throw them off a building and see if they can fly?
the child believes they are their favorite wrestler. why not put them in an actual wrestling ring?
the child believes they are the opposite gender. transition them.
i call this idiocy. you can call it what you want, i know what i'm seeing, you clearly don't.



Parallax said:


> youre a fucking moron go back to smoking weed


why don't you just transition yourself and actually have a leg in the argument rather than pining to me with your crass emotions where you pretend to care about any of these people?
you ever had frank discussions with one of these trans people? i have no doubt they would resent you. even more so considering most of them have substance abuse issues and never asked for your pity. they all simply want to know what is right to do going forwards because they are confused.
you add to their confusion. brazenly. proudly. and denigrate those who aren't preachers of fluff knowing that those people do not want to hear any fluff statements.
so why don't you stop smoking weed para, it's clearly gotten your brain in a haze.
damn preacher of degeneracy, coaxing people into spiritual suicide.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 2


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## Kue (May 3, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> the child believes they are a dinosaur. why don't we make them a fossil?
> the child believes they are superman. why don't we throw them off a building and see if they can fly?
> the child believes they are their favorite wrestler. why not put them in an actual wrestling ring?
> the child believes they are the opposite gender. transition them.
> i call this idiocy. you can call it what you want, i know what i'm seeing, you clearly don't.



The difference between all these examples is that transitioning has medical support, the others do not. Unironically still doing the attack helicopter meme in 2021 lol.

And please stop with the nutpicking.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## WorkingMoogle (May 3, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> the child believes they are a dinosaur. why don't we make them a fossil?
> the child believes they are superman. why don't we throw them off a building and see if they can fly?
> the child believes they are their favorite wrestler. why not put them in an actual wrestling ring?
> the child believes they are the opposite gender. transition them.
> i call this idiocy. you can call it what you want, i know what i'm seeing, you clearly don't.


The saddest thing is you think you _actually_ have a point here. 

If only you were allowed to argue against things you _think_ are happening. Then maybe you'd actually have a position that's worth defending.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kue (May 3, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> It is overboard from both the left and the right.  There was never a problem with transwomen in women's bathroom but Republicans introduce bathroom bills anyways.  By having this unnecessary culture war between the cultural left and cultural right, the government diverts your attention away from economic inequality and disastrous foreign policies.  Both parties create problems out of nothing and have the media focus on identity politics than real issues, the diversion is working surprisingly well.  The economic policies are exactly the same between Democrats and Republicans, it's just that Democrats are more pro-social-justice.  The top tax rate is still 37%, which is too low, and Biden isn't doing shit about it.  Democrats are more competent than Republicans though, but the bar is low because Republicans suck so bad.
> 
> I am not nutpicking.  There is a reason why the trans population multiplied.  I don't know what the psychiatrists are telling their patients, but obtaining hormones is surprisingly easy.  An AMAB person can just tell the doctor that they want to be a hot girl and the doctor prescribes the medicine.  Who doesn't want to be a young hot chick?  Even some cis dudes will answer yes.  Young hot chicks are easily one of the most privileged group in society.  Maybe the doctor should ask if the person ever see themselves as an old woman or ugly woman, then they will get a clearer answer on whether the person is following a trend or genuinely have gender dysphoria.



I sort of agree with this, but it's the right's fault, the left is just defending themselves. If right wingers did not care about social issues that does not affect them this would not be a problem. Your first paragraph is an elaborate way to victim blame minorities, and there's no reason we can improve economic conditions while fighting for social issues at the same time.

What proof do you have that obtaining hormones is easy?

The young hot chick argument makes you sound like an incel tbh.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## WorkingMoogle (May 3, 2021)

Kue said:


> What proof do you have that obtaining hormones is easy?


It's not.  They just like to think that it is.


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## Kue (May 3, 2021)

WorkingMoogle said:


> It's not.  They just like to think that it is.



I agree, I'm just trying to show that @IHateAnnoyingJerks has no proof for his statements, he is just being reactionary in this thread.


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## Subarashii (May 3, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> It is overboard from both the left and the right.  There was never a problem with transwomen in women's bathroom but Republicans introduce bathroom bills anyways.  By having this unnecessary culture war between the cultural left and cultural right, the government diverts your attention away from economic inequality and disastrous foreign policies.  Both parties create problems out of nothing and have the media focus on identity politics than real issues, the diversion is working surprisingly well.  The economic policies are exactly the same between Democrats and Republicans, it's just that Democrats are more pro-social-justice.  The top tax rate is still 37%, which is too low, and Biden isn't doing shit about it.  Democrats are more competent than Republicans though, but the bar is low because Republicans suck so bad.
> 
> I am not nutpicking.  There is a reason why the trans population multiplied.  I don't know what the psychiatrists are telling their patients, but obtaining hormones is surprisingly easy.  An AMAB person can just tell the doctor that they want to be a hot girl and the doctor prescribes the medicine.  Who doesn't want to be a young hot chick?  Even some cis dudes will answer yes.  Young hot chicks are easily one of the most privileged group in society.  Maybe the doctor should ask if the person ever see themselves as an old woman or ugly woman, then they will get a clearer answer on whether the person is following a trend or genuinely have gender dysphoria.



And then your post degrades into something unfounded and unscientific.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nemesis (May 3, 2021)

For why there are more people coming out as trans in recent years than before let's look at this chart




Now one might ask.  "What has this to do with anything?" and at first it might be a nice fair question.  Well here's the answer.  In previous eras, left-handed people were attacked, abused, treated worse than right-handed people because Left-handedness was linked to the devil.    As people who are left-handed became more accepted there were more people who were comfortable to accept and show that they are left-handed before reaching a plateau showing what is the best representation of how many people are left-handed.

Now, why is this brought up?  Because by and large, fewer and fewer people are showing transphobic views.  Making it safer for those who in previous years would stay hidden to come out.   Now as this thread shows it's not close to perfect yet.  There are still too many cunts who are transphobic and would rather have us not exist to keep their pure view of the world.  Using terms like "Traps." and "Tranny/ies" and all other shit.  Which is showing how we're not even close yet.  But as it becomes more acceptable for us to be ourselves you will obviously be seeing more people coming out, it will also lead to fewer suicides (although let's face it many transphobes would rather us dead).  So the same reason lefthanded people "multiplied" in the early 20th century IS the same reason more people are openly multiplied in the modern era.

People now try to say it's easy to get blockers and hormones?  Hell no, it is between difficult to impossible depending on where you are even if there's informed consent you can't simply put walk into a doctor, go "Give me hormones." and the Doctor will say "ok.".  It just does not happen.  Anyone who thinks it does either are listening to far-right loons, terfs or just holding on to prejudice they're in love being part of.

Now when it comes to sports. Kaitlyn Jenner is NOT I repeat NOT an authority on the situation.  She does not speak for any part of the LGBT community especially not the T part.  She is not some kind of gotchya, she is a far-right loon who after transition even hated being told she was now a lesbian since she was in a relationship with a woman. 

What is an authority on the situation... Science.  Which sorry didn't stop in the 1950s and then pushed by an agenda.  It continued on, with people falling behind.  We already have studies that show any male biological "strengths" go away when blockers and estrogen are used for years.

We also know that transgender women have been allowed in world sports since 2003 with the Olympics and as of yet not one transgender woman has either had a medal in any sport or even competed in the Olympics. If the domination was coming, it would be here by now and every sport would be dominated. As to why that isn't the case it's simple. Cis men just don't want to be women. The whole "I'm getting a sex change to win sports." doesn't happen. The Futurama episode where Bender did it, it's just fiction and he's a machine.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 5


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2021)

Nemesis said:


> Making it safer for those who in previous years would stay hidden to come out.


I agree with this idea, it seems like common sense if there’s more acceptance than more people will come out. There’s a lower degree of fear of being antagonized.


Nemesis said:


> Using terms like "Traps."


I have no clue where this term originated but I always assumed it meant transgender people that knowingly fool the opposite gender into a sexual act. Wouldn’t that mean transgender persons are responsible for this term? 


Nemesis said:


> Now when it comes to sports. Kaitlyn Jenner is NOT I repeat NOT an authority on the situation. She does not speak for any part of the LGBT community especially not the T part. She is not some kind of gotchya, she is a far-right loon who after transition even hated being told she was now a lesbian since she was in a relationship with a woman.


I don’t understand this. On one hand you claim that people don’t transition for ulterior agenda’s, yet here you imply that Jenner doesn’t represent the transgender voice because she has conservative beliefs? Are you saying that true transgenders can’t be conservative? Sounds pretty discriminatory and hypocritical. Much like how liberals claim minorities are actively being suppressed by white conservatives but then go on to say that black conservatives opinions aren’t their own.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## SakuraLover16 (May 3, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> I have no clue where this term originated but I always assumed it meant transgender people that knowingly fool the opposite gender into a sexual act. Wouldn’t that mean transgender persons are responsible for this term?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2021)

So trap is offensive because men who assault and kill trans after alleged deception use that word as defense for violence? If so, that makes sense. These men procured a transgender and are ashamed of their own confused sexuality.

I can come to an understanding with the second person of this video because they didn’t shy away from pointing out that the aggressors who end up in those situations knew what they were getting themselves into beforehand.


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## ~Gesy~ (May 3, 2021)

To be honest..and I feel a little weird saying this..but some transgender women do look like the quote/unquote "real thing". I can understand how some of them "fool men". I pray that never happens to me tho.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2021)

~Gesy~ said:


> To be honest..and I feel a little weird saying this..but some transgender women do look like the quote/unquote "real thing". I can understand how some of them "fool men". I pray that never happens to me tho.


As the person in the video pointed out, there’s no way you have sex and not know the difference though.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## SakuraLover16 (May 3, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> So trap is offensive because men who assault and kill trans after alleged deception use that word as defense for violence? If so, that makes sense. These men procured a transgender and are ashamed of their own confused sexuality


I'm glad you watched it! What did you think? Looking at the time makes it seem a little daunting but honestly her videos never seem that long.

The answer to your question is yes. Lots of transwomen especially those of color (who are killed at higher rates) are killed and that's usually the defense. Yes to your second question as well.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I can come to an understanding with the second person of this video because they didn’t shy away from pointing out that the aggressors who end up in those situations knew what they were getting themselves into beforehand.


They're the same person lol. But she's right. She also highlights that it's another reason why some transwomen are afraid to disclose that they are trans. There has been times where women have been beaten to death because the person that flirted with them didn't know and got embarrassed when they found out.

Men who pursue transwomen differ in comfortability and confidence. Some are totally not interested in the preoperation areas while others are. Usually it's the social stigma that gets some men.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 3, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> As the person in the video pointed out, there’s no way you have sex and not know the difference though.


That's mainly the women preoperation it's hard not to notice a penis. Post operation vaginas oftentimes look like a normal woman's so yes then it would be hard to tell if you can to begin with.


~Gesy~ said:


> To be honest..and I feel a little weird saying this..but some transgender women do look like the quote/unquote "real thing". I can understand how some of them "fool men". I pray that never happens to me tho.


A lot of women are passable. There are some where it's possible to tell but then again you still can't go off of appearances because biological women can have more masculine features as well.


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## Hand Banana (May 3, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That's mainly the women preoperation it's hard not to notice a penis. Post operation vaginas oftentimes look like a normal woman's so yes then it would be hard to tell if you can to begin with.


How do you know?


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 3, 2021)

Kue said:


> I sort of agree with this, but it's the right's fault, the left is just defending themselves. If right wingers did not care about social issues that does not affect them this would not be a problem. Your first paragraph is an elaborate way to victim blame minorities, and there's no reason we can improve economic conditions while fighting for social issues at the same time.
> 
> What proof do you have that obtaining hormones is easy?
> 
> The young hot chick argument makes you sound like an incel tbh.


There are some social issues that need to be fought but majority of the time it's a distraction.  Like I said, no one even talk about transgender people in the bathroom until Republicans bring it up.  Police brutality?  Yeah, that's an issue.  Air conditioning being sexist?  That's a distraction.  Most of the bills passed by both parties are distractions, the top tax rate is still 37%, and I doubt Biden is raising it.

I hate the manosphere I am nowhere close to incel.  Although there is a very small minority of incels do somehow become trans later on, swinging from culturally far right to culturally far left.  Obtaining hormones is easy in the west.  All you have to do is show even minor signs of not following your gender tradition.  Psychiatrists nowadays are afraid to even suggest it's a phase, which cause some trenders taking hormones as well, which they may regret later on.  I would say women are less privileged than men in general, especially when they grow older, a man's income grows exponentially later on in his life while a woman's income staggers.  Still, young hot chicks in the west are indeed one of the most privileged groups, look at how fetishized they are in media that you consume, movies, TV shows, anime.  Porn is very easy to access thanks to the Internet, which is another reason why trans population exploded.  Sometimes you come lesbian porn or gender transformation / crossdressing fetish.  When you have fetishes like that, it's easy to imagine yourself to become part of the fetish.  Hence, I do believe there are trenders see themselves as young attractive woman, but never see themselves as an old woman or ugly woman.  That's why psychiatrists need to go deeper to see if their patients really have gender dysphoria, maybe ask them to see if they ever see themselves as an old unattractive woman.  If a person really do have gender dysphoria, they don't just want to be a hot chick, they want to be a woman of any kind.



Subarashii said:


> And then your post degrades into something unfounded and unscientific.


What?  I am only saying psychiatrists need to dig deeper before prescribing hormones.   I some polls from random forums, a lot of men chose that they want to be female.  Does that mean they are all trans?  Statistically speaking, I doubt it.  Psychiatrists probably would have prescribed female hormone to the guys that voted they want to become female because the poll voters show "signs".

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I'm glad you watched it! What did you think? Looking at the time makes it seem a little daunting but honestly her videos never seem that long.


Ngl I was prepared to shut the video down at the one minute time stamp until I realized the whole devil bit was satire. I think she is entertaining and somewhat fair. There’s some “liberal speak” that I can tell is used to appeal to her fan base but I figured it was eventually going to lead to informative commentary, which it did. After my question was answered around 12 mins I shut it down because it’s not exactly my flavor. I’ll show my girlfriend this though because this is a hot topic in our home and amongst our social circle.


SakuraLover16 said:


> They're the same person lol. But she's right. She also highlights that it's another reason why some transwomen are afraid to disclose that they are trans. There has been times where women have been beaten to death because the person that flirted with them didn't know and got embarrassed when they found out.


I can see a man being embarrassed in front of his boys for catcalling a transgender woman and that resulting in violence. That’s the mans fault. However, If we’re talking about sexual solicitation, or an e-relationship, I believe the responsibility belongs to the transgender party to disclose that information. 


SakuraLover16 said:


> Men who pursue transwomen differ in comfortability and confidence. Some are totally not interested in the preoperation areas while others are. Usually it's the social stigma that gets some men.


I’m not qualified to discuss this and I’m not sure if you are, but how much is it social stigma versus internalized hatred? ‘


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## Eros (May 3, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> There are some social issues that need to be fought but majority of the time it's a distraction.  Like I said, no one even talk about transgender people in the bathroom until Republicans bring it up.  Police brutality?  Yeah, that's an issue.  Air conditioning being sexist?  That's a distraction.  Most of the bills passed by both parties are distractions, the top tax rate is still 37%, and I doubt Biden is raising it.
> 
> I hate the manosphere I am nowhere close to incel.  Although there is a very small minority of incels do somehow become trans later on, swinging from culturally far right to culturally far left.  Obtaining hormones is easy in the west.  All you have to do is show even minor signs of not following your gender tradition.  Psychiatrists nowadays are afraid to even suggest it's a phase, which cause some trenders taking hormones as well, which they may regret later on.  I would say women are less privileged than men in general, especially when they grow older, a man's income grows exponentially later on in his life while a woman's income staggers.  Still, young hot chicks in the west are indeed one of the most privileged groups, look at how fetishized they are in media that you consume, movies, TV shows, anime.  Porn is very easy to access thanks to the Internet, which is another reason why trans population exploded.  Sometimes you come lesbian porn or gender transformation / crossdressing fetish.  When you have fetishes like that, it's easy to imagine yourself to become part of the fetish.  Hence, I do believe there are trenders see themselves as young attractive woman, but never see themselves as an old woman or ugly woman.  That's why psychiatrists need to go deeper to see if their patients really have gender dysphoria, maybe ask them to see if they ever see themselves as an old unattractive woman.  If a person really do have gender dysphoria, they don't just want to be a hot chick, they want to be a woman of any kind.
> 
> ...


See, that's the big question. If they could instantaneously become the gender they want to be completely without any evidence of previous identity, I am almost certain they would say yes. From my perspective as a gay man, I can see why it's likely they would like having nothing to hide and having no fear of rejection or being seen as an outcast ever again. Take that pain away. I may be wrong, and I apologize if I am.


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## Nemesis (May 3, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


>



Here's the problem, you're looking at MMO Champion.  That place is a cesspool as it is already holding some of the absolute worst of the wowcommunity.  There are definitely people memeing in there.  That's not a place to trust a poll.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## SakuraLover16 (May 3, 2021)

Hand Banana said:


> How do you know?


I was curious one day so I looked it up. The results look fantastic. 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> Ngl I was prepared to shut the video down at the one minute time stamp until I realized the whole devil bit was satire. I think she is entertaining and somewhat fair. There’s some “liberal speak” that I can tell is used to appeal to her fan base but I figured it was eventually going to lead to informative commentary, which it did. After my question was answered around 12 mins I shut it down because it’s not exactly my flavor. I’ll show my girlfriend this though because this is a hot topic in our home and amongst our social circle.


Actually she is known for deradicalizing groups of people such as incels, terfs, etc. She was getting her doctorate in philosophy but stopped. She tends to be really fair as well. It's rare that you will see people present both sides of an argument as well as she does despite having a stake in one or the other.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I can see a man being embarrassed in front of his boys for catcalling a transgender woman and that resulting in violence. That’s the mans fault. However, If we’re talking about sexual solicitation, or an e-relationship, I believe the responsibility belongs to the transgender party to disclose that information.


I agree and I think in the video she does too. I think a lot of people do think that it's important to disclose whether or not you're transgender before intimacy.


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m not qualified to discuss this and I’m not sure if you are, but how much is it social stigma versus internalized hatred? ‘


I'm probably not despite working in the medical field it's more on the physical side of things. I honestly think it could be both but it leans more so to social stigma because that stigma can lead to internalized hate.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Natty (May 3, 2021)

"big pharma"

HRT is incredibly cheap, even thought there's been an increase in out and about trans folk, we're still such a small percent that we're not making huge bank for companies involved. Most, if not all, HRT is already established medications with generics available. Androgen blockers have existed for use by cis men and women for a variety of reasons (blood pressure, prostate cancer, PCOS), and it goes without saying that synthetic testosterone and estrogen has been around for a long ass time. Cis people use these meds for long periods of time and are the majority users of these medications.

We tend to go under the radar for stuff like clinical research to begin with because isn't much money behind it in the first place, but also cause there's not much money to be made. A small minority who tends to struggle with poverty, isn't the cash cow some people make it out to be.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I don’t understand this. On one hand you claim that people don’t transition for ulterior agenda’s, yet here you imply that Jenner doesn’t represent the transgender voice because she has conservative beliefs? Are you saying that true transgenders can’t be conservative? Sounds pretty discriminatory and hypocritical. Much like how liberals claim minorities are actively being suppressed by white conservatives but then go on to say that black conservatives opinions aren’t their own.



Not transitioning for ulterior motives and not representing transgender people aren't contradictory statements. Nor is Nemisis saying that trans people can't be conservative.

People like Caitlyn Jenner, Buck Angel, and Blair White don't speak for the trans community cause they are an incredibly small minority within it. The politics they tend to represent are the same ones that would legislate being trans out of existence given the chance, it's really no wonder that they don't speak for the community. I can only speculate on why they do this, or if they really believe what they say they believe. But it is 100% true that they don't speak for trans people overall.

Community is even a bit of a misnomer too, cause it's really hard to say that it's really a "community". It's just like calling any other minority population a "community". We're really just individuals who share an identity, and as a result of being pushed down for so long, we tend to have certain aligned goals. We're not some monolithic community, with a head tran who dictates what we say and do. Certain aligned goals and tend being the important part here, which is why someone like the people I listed above can actually be speaking against the very community they're technically a part of.

I say technically, cause regardless of how much that trans person in question disavows the "trans community", they're usually always grouped in with the overall community or with trans rights advocates by those outside of it and especially those who hate them for being trans. Jenner was called a Trans Rights Advocate by a news org, despite not doing a single thing except come out and be a celebrity. And Buck Angel and Blair White have disavowed from being part of the "trans community", but are still lumped in by others.



Hand Banana said:


> How do you know?



I've seen some irl, @SakuraLover16 is right. A lot of pictures you see of it online, tend to be within the recovery period. I've personally encountered finding photos of neo-vaginas online to be difficult because of this reason specifically.



IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> I hate the manosphere I am nowhere close to incel. Although there is a very small minority of incels do somehow become trans later on, swinging from culturally far right to culturally far left. Obtaining hormones is easy in the west. All you have to do is show even minor signs of not following your gender tradition. Psychiatrists nowadays are afraid to even suggest it's a phase, which cause some trenders taking hormones as well, which they may regret later on. I would say women are less privileged than men in general, especially when they grow older, a man's income grows exponentially later on in his life while a woman's income staggers. Still, young hot chicks in the west are indeed one of the most privileged groups, look at how fetishized they are in media that you consume, movies, TV shows, anime. Porn is very easy to access thanks to the Internet, which is another reason why trans population exploded. Sometimes you come lesbian porn or gender transformation / crossdressing fetish. When you have fetishes like that, it's easy to imagine yourself to become part of the fetish. Hence, I do believe there are trenders see themselves as young attractive woman, but never see themselves as an old woman or ugly woman. That's why psychiatrists need to go deeper to see if their patients really have gender dysphoria, maybe ask them to see if they ever see themselves as an old unattractive woman. If a person really do have gender dysphoria, they don't just want to be a hot chick, they want to be a woman of any kind.



How do you know for a fact that this is in fact the case? A lot adults are able to go through informed consent through some services, but these are very much adults who are made aware through the process of what these things can do. If those services aren't available (like how they aren't for many places around the world) then we're at the mercy of juggling through psychs to be able to properly assess us. Most docs follow the WPATH Standard of Care, which I've posted elsewhere, that actually covers all of your concerns listed here. And like, why do you think you're qualified to ask these questions? And do you think we've just started to raise these questions and concerns recently?

A lot of trans healthcare has struggled with these things historically and researched everything you've listed. Stuff in the 60s/70s/80s/90s were treatments that followed what you're generally outlining, treating transgender as a sexual deviancy in most cases, doctors and psych would often tell these kids that it was just a phase, and tell the parents on how to deal with it. People like John Money, Kenneth Zucker, and Blanchard and other psychs did exactly these things and more. It didn't produce great outcomes for the children involved. Trans healthcare didn't appear and start as it exists now, it's begun the 20s and 30s, reinvigorated and rebooted after WW2, and went from there, going from being viewed from a homophobic, and/or gender non coformist hating lenses, to trans hating, to what we have now (a crap shoot really). It's so, so much to cover and requires tons of catching up.

The most recent article I've read about the 70s is  one. It centers around the 70s healthcare system here in Canada, and mostly around Dr. Zucker, but what he practiced, was the standard at that time. And to quickly summarize what this article talks about is:


*Spoiler*: __ 



_In the process of doing research for this article, I noticed there seems to be a particular set of ideas, propagated around the time of the disco era, that stands in stark contrast to contemporary ethical therapeutic models for working with transgender individuals. I came to think of these particular views as “Disco Sexology.” At its heart, this is a story about a cathartic moment in the way mental health professionals regard trans people and the trans experience itself. Sexological ideas about trans people from around the time of the disco era have held sway over the care and treatment of trans kids and adults until very recently. Sexologists who postulated that sexual fetishes and/or gender roles drove trans people to implicitly experience their bodies in the way they do in no small way comprised the ontological foundation of trans care for decades. _




You're reciting a lot of arguments from transphobic hate groups and listed stuff like AGP in all but name btw, things that have almost nothing to really support it in factuality, and are all part of TERF rhetoric.



IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> What? I am only saying psychiatrists need to dig deeper before prescribing hormones. I some polls from random forums, a lot of men chose that they want to be female. Does that mean they are all trans? Statistically speaking, I doubt it. Psychiatrists probably would have prescribed female hormone to the guys that voted they want to become female because the poll voters show "signs".



It's much different going through the steps of going through with being trans versus just magically being whatever agab. This by no means is representative of the number of people who'd transition. Tons of cis people wonder what it'd be like being the opposite sex/gender, but it's usually never a persistent or distressing thing like gender dysphoria or euphoria can be.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I can see a man being embarrassed in front of his boys for catcalling a transgender woman and that resulting in violence. That’s the mans fault. However, If we’re talking about sexual solicitation, or an e-relationship, I believe the responsibility belongs to the transgender party to disclose that information.



I'll add a bit onto what Sakura is saying since this is something I deal with irl. A bit of background info, I'm trans, and I think outright denying to ever date a trans person is transphobic *however *there's a place and a time for this to be something to bring up in conversation, and that it depends on the underlying reason for it. Not wanting to be sexually involved with a penis or vagina (depending on whatever that person prefers) is completely 100% fine, not wanting to be involved because of no possibility of biological children 100% ok, not liking how someone looks ,100% fine. A portion of trans gals aren't gals I'm willing to date, solely because I don't like how they look for any number of reasons.  The complete and outright denial without asking the why behind it, is what tends to be offensive and insulting.

I think it's responsible for the trans person in question to disclose, but that they shouldn't be forced or expected to. I think it's responsible for the trans person's safety. Caveat being that if said trans person wants and is capable to live stealth as their gender, then they don't really have to, the only thing they'd disclose is infertility later on (typically when discussions around kids happens). I wish we could live in a world where this stuff didn't really matter, it unfortunately does, and it can have some really bad consequences for the trans person involved. It's really a question of who holds the power in these sort of encounters, and it's typically never the trans person.

We don't want to force anyone to fuck us, or force people to find us hot, or attractive, we REALLY don't want to be meeting people that hate us or find us disgusting. All we want is to be able to live with some sort of normalcy and dignity, and that does include gendering correctly, it's what's already afforded to everyone else. Just like we don't ask the length or girth of the penis of the person that we want to sleep with, or don't ask what size pussy someone has, or how humongous their badonkahonkaloompas are under that bra.



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m not qualified to discuss this and I’m not sure if you are, but how much is it social stigma versus internalized hatred? ‘



Sakura right on the money. It's most likely a stigma, that informs the internalized hatred. Think of what many kids were/are bullied for, for being gay, and in the case of boys, for being more feminine. It's what I was bullied for, and it used to be all over movies and TV too. Any perception of being gay used to be negative especially among males, so being interpreted as being gay because they're dating someone amab is.. wrong on some level. It can be hard to deprogram that, which can lead to confusion and hatred. As someone who's consistently told that they would never have guess I was trans, or that they never found a trans person (that they know of or are willing to admit) attractive until they saw me and variations/combinations of the two, this is how I personally interpret this up close.

Something to add on to just that though, those sort of pressures come not just from male peers, it also comes from family, and also on the environment. Being trans can come with hardships, and just choosing to date a trans person can come with consequences from the cis person's family. Either through being shitty to their partner, or on the extreme end just straight up disowning the cis person for it. And if they care for their trans partner, seeing the trans person hurt through their own connections can't be easy to think about or contend with. For the trans person involved, they don't want to be the reason why their cis partner can be ostracized or mocked.

There's a few interesting articles that focus on cis men specifically that line up with both myself and Sakura, , though there is many more articles exploring this topic. For cis women it can be a bit more complicated, but cis women overall tend to be more accepting and accepted among peers for dating a trans person.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 3, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> That's mainly the women preoperation it's hard not to notice a penis. Post operation vaginas oftentimes* look like a normal woman's so yes then it would be hard to tell if you can to begin with.*
> 
> A lot of women are passable. There are some where it's possible to tell but then again you still can't go off of appearances because biological women can have more masculine features as well.



That's CAP

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 3, 2021)

Natty said:


> Wall of text


It's no coincidence that the trans population exploded in the age of pornography.  Do you really not think there are trenders among them?  In dirt poor places in Papua New Guinea, the transgender population barely exists.  This poll shows most MtF said they have a fetish before transition. 


I don't have a link but I remember I read it on r/AskTransgender.  I am sure you know where it is since you claim to be trans.  There was an AMAB person said they wanted to be a cute girl, and everyone convince them to be trans.  Then in one of the comments, someone asks if they ever see themselves as an ugly girl, then they say probably not.  My guess is that person isn't really trans.  There is a mentality in the trans community calling everyone an "egg" for being curious about the opposite sex.  I don't think being trans is as simple as wanting to be a cutie.  "Cis men never think about being a woman."  Surprise, they do sometimes, it's more about their curiosity than hate being a man.


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## Kisame3rd14 (May 3, 2021)

Natty said:


> Community is even a bit of a misnomer too, cause it's really hard to say that it's really a "community". It's just like calling any other minority population a "community". We're really just individuals who share an identity, and as a result of being pushed down for so long, we tend to have certain aligned goals. We're not some monolithic community, with a head tran who dictates what we say and do. Certain aligned goals and tend being the important part here, which is why someone like the people I listed above can actually be speaking against the very community they're technically a part of.


I’m with you 100% here. There’s no one person of a group that can speak for everyone.

The point I’m trying to get across is that the minority inside that group exists as well, you can’t discount the fact that there is a subgroup that exists within the group you stand for. And there is many people that aren’t in your group that consider the beliefs of that subgroup to be more tolerable. I believe your civic responsibility is to get your group together before you challenge the people outside of your group that disagree with your ideology. Does that make sense to you?


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## Yami Munesanzun (May 4, 2021)

reiatsuflow said:


> We can still stick the landing you guys and not get the thread closed.
> 
> I  believe  in  us


I agree, we can totally

Punt  The  Child

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Natty (May 4, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> It's no coincidence that the trans population exploded in the age of pornography.  Do you really not think there are trenders among them?  In dirt poor places in Papua New Guinea, the transgender population barely exists.  This poll shows most MtF said they have a fetish before transition.



It's no coincidence people are coming out as trans because it's more accepted in society, moreso western ones. It's why certain places with populations that are more rigid in individuality and against LGBT identities in general have less trans people coming out. It being more visible in general is telling people in the closet or exploring that it's ok. It's been the best time to come out as being trans, there's never been a better time period for it. That's why there's more trans people coming out.

For me and the other trans people I know around me, we used fetishes as a means to connect with, or explore our own identity pretransition. This isn't really that complicated, we sought something to connect with, found it, and use that to explore ourselves. It's why lots of trans people like genres like gender bend, forced fem, cross dressing, and whatever more I can't really think of. It's also not uncommon for us to just be into kink as a means to derive pleasure from other sources rather than just our genitals if we find it dysphoric inducing.



IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> I don't have a link but I remember I read it on r/AskTransgender.  I am sure you know where it is since you claim to be trans.  There was an AMAB person said they wanted to be a cute girl, and everyone convince them to be trans.  Then in one of the comments, someone asks if they ever see themselves as an ugly girl, then they say probably not. My guess is that person isn't really trans.  There is a mentality in the trans community calling everyone an "egg" for being curious about the opposite sex.  I don't think being trans is as simple as wanting to be a cutie.



I know exactly the type of shit they say on asktrans, and it's not exactly to a T what you explain it as being. Am I Trans questions come up all the time, and while the comments are generally all supportive, by no means they convince anyone of being trans. Typically the person asking the question, is asking _because_ they're having concerns with or about what they think being trans is about. Sometimes they ask because they want affirmations, sometimes they ask because they have tons of doubts. The OP is doubting their own identity as cis, and typically asking if other trans people have feel that same way. *Being attractive/ugly can be a deal breaking in transitioning for some people, partially because passing can effect a lot aspects of life. Some people can hold off transitioning for years or decades because of this worry, then eventually transition regardless of that outcome. *However, someone worrying about this doesn't mean they are or aren't trans. And people in there aren't saying definitively that the person asking the question is or isn't trans, they're not the expert, they can only pull from personal experience and what sounds familiar. Many people encourage seeking out psychiatric care or other accredited experts to help them out, especially if they're super super worried or incredibly confused. 

I can partially agree with you on the egg thing. I think too many people are overeager with calling gnc cis people as "eggs" but this is very much a problem outside of communities where people ask trans people for help or aid.



IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> "Cis men never think about being a woman."  Surprise, they do sometimes, it's more about their curiosity than hate being a man.



I've actually said this line in my previous post, cis men never think about being a women in the same way a trans person does. Especially not with the same sort of persistence and the amount of thought we can put into it.

Being trans isn't solely about having dysphoria, and dysphoria manifests in many ways, it's not just hate of our agab. We usually end up talking about GD because it's how it was medicalized and diagnosed, but it can be more complicated than that. Euphoria can be a better indicator of what trans is. 

For myself, dysphoria was complete indifference to my body and identity. I didn't actively hate it, I didn't really feel that way at all. I just knew that I liked being a girl on the internet and interacting with the world through that. I wasn't aware that being trans was a thing someone can do up until I turned 24/25. The indifference made it hard to identify it as dysphoria or anything other than depression, and it's only something I realized after learning what being trans is and what it isn't. 


Afg earlier in this thread said this:



afg said:


> I’m of the mind that until you have demonstrated that you actually respect the dignity of trans people and make a genuine effort to empathize with them, you’re not worth really talking to on any issue pertaining to them. It’s a quicksand of bigotry and poisons the well from the outset, because every logistical component of an issue will be bent, warped and squirmed around in order to align with an anti-trans narrative.



I think you're very much struggling with the last sentence here. Everything you mention has much more simpler explanations, and your assumptions on what a trans identity entails is clouded by the way you view the world, but also a lack of any fundamental knowledge on what being trans is and what it is not. You're doing exactly what's outlined by him here. The most simple explanation as to why something is the way it is, is bent into a means to disregard or doubt our identity. It's readily apparent when talking about the why more trans people are coming out. 



Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m with you 100% here. There’s no one person of a group that can speak for everyone.
> 
> The point I’m trying to get across is that the minority inside that group exists as well, you can’t discount the fact that there is a subgroup that exists within the group you stand for. And there is many people that aren’t in your group that consider the beliefs of that subgroup to be more tolerable. I believe your civic responsibility is to get your group together before you challenge the people outside of your group that disagree with your ideology. Does that make sense to you?



I agree up until the last line. I can't think of any single group that has ever achieved that, I'm of the mind that to get any group to agree like this, is actually impossible. There's a reason why the terms race/class traitor, uncle tom, grifter and self-hating have been and continue to be used. A single unified entire vision by an entire group of varying perspectives and status is impossible to attain. Sure there is legit advocate groups that serve that purpose, but trying to get a whole national or international community of people like trans/gay/lesbian/LGBT/PoC/black/Aboriginal/Asian/Jewish/Christian etc etc to agree on every issue is something that's only even close to attainable in dreams. 

Plus it's not like people who are more align with the trans community or advocacy haven't tried talking to these people in question. Like.. we have, in many different ways and contexts . It's just they think their approach is better or more just. Its just how it is. Jenner has never at any point really advocated for trans people, she came out, said her thing about herself, and that was that, she's very much divorced from the community in a lot of ways. These types of ppl have and will always exist within minority groups.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## SakuraLover16 (May 4, 2021)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> That's CAP


It's really not go have a peek you may have to search a little deep because a lot of pictures are just right after surgery. The befores and afters are unbelievable if you ask me 


Kisame3rd14 said:


> I’m with you 100% here. There’s no one person of a group that can speak for everyone.
> 
> The point I’m trying to get across is that the minority inside that group exists as well, you can’t discount the fact that there is a subgroup that exists within the group you stand for. And there is many people that aren’t in your group that consider the beliefs of that subgroup to be more tolerable. I believe your civic responsibility is to get your group together before you challenge the people outside of your group that disagree with your ideology. Does that make sense to you?


I understand what you are saying but you have to keep one thing in mind. Not all people in a group agree just look at the left and right there are so many different factions filled with people who believe different things.

That's seen everywhere though. The onky way to push forward with a lot of the issues that trans people face is for the majority to be on the same page even if they are on different paragraphs. If they waited for everyone to get on board they would be waiting forever.

You'll always have Blair Whites, Buck Angel, etc.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Natty (May 4, 2021)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It's really not go have a peek you may have to search a little deep because a lot of pictures are just right after surgery. The befores and afters are unbelievable if you ask me



It's funny how much we repeat can ourselves. 



IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> I am sure you know where it is since you claim to be trans



Very small nitpick, but gosh I hate that it's presented as thought you doubt whether or not I'm trans. It's not like I'm winning trans brownie points from people on this forum for it. If I had it my way, no one here would know if I was or wasn't, it's not anyone's business and wouldn't come up often if at all. Ultimately, my choice didn't matter because I was outted within the first few months of my joining and that was immediately met with hostility.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IHateAnnoyingJerks (May 4, 2021)

Natty said:


> Very small nitpick, but gosh I hate that it's presented as thought you doubt whether or not I'm trans. It's not like I'm winning trans brownie points from people on this forum for it. If I had it my way, no one here would know if I was or wasn't, it's not anyone's business and wouldn't come up often if at all. Ultimately, my choice didn't matter because I was outted within the first few months of my joining and that was immediately met with hostility.


No, you give me good replies.  Reddit has one of the largest trans community, so I am sure you know what those subreddits are, that's it.  NF is a small forum and mods don't necessarily restrict hate speeches so places like Reddit would be a better safe space.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Natty (May 4, 2021)

IHateAnnoyingJerks said:


> No, you give me good replies.  Reddit has one of the largest trans community, so I am sure you know what those subreddits are, that's it.



Ah, cool.  

Yeah, asktrans is very sentimental to me. It's the only one I frequented and one that pops up in my feeds, though I'm generally aware of some of the other spaces on both reddit and elsewhere.


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## Natty (May 4, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> why don't you just transition yourself and actually have a leg in the argument rather than pining to me with your crass emotions where you pretend to care about any of these people?
> you ever had frank discussions with one of these trans people? i have no doubt they would resent you. even more so considering most of them have substance abuse issues and never asked for your pity. they all simply want to know what is right to do going forwards because they are confused.
> you add to their confusion. brazenly. proudly. and denigrate those who aren't preachers of fluff knowing that those people do not want to hear any fluff statements.
> so why don't you stop smoking weed para, it's clearly gotten your brain in a haze.
> damn preacher of degeneracy, coaxing people into spiritual suicide.



Shut the fuck up, I can't believe there's someone who's had their soft spots on their skull pushed in so hard as an infant is able to type even barely coherently.

And no, I don't at all resent folk like Para or anyone really in defense here. What a fun imaginary friend you made for yourself, cause it sure isn't anywhere close to what trans people are like. What sort of leg do you have to make these arguments? You have none, not even a wrinkle in the argument.

We do resent Jenner though.



aiyanah said:


> i'm talking about actual transitions.
> if you want the attack helicopter meme equivalent it would be literally placing someones brain inside the chopper, or doing a 40k dreadnought treatment on someone. as opposed to simply stating they are the attack chopper and demanding everyone believe it so.
> 
> and no "nutpicking" will be stopped here, unless para has actually transitioned already which i doubt.
> ...



iM tAlKiNg ABouT aCtUaL tRanSiTioNS  right after talking about "kids wanna be DINOSAURS"

This is one of the most hateful things I've seen on this fucking forum, and I can't believe that it's still up and that you decided that, yeah, I'll be one of the most vile people on here today by misgendering a trans person, saying slurs, making shit up, then insinuate that all trans people will kill themselves. All this vomit you decided to show the class and prompted to proudly display with your own name, grats. It was the best you can do.

I've never seen such a massive mischaracterization of trans people since I was told that we're all pedophiles. I'm saying you've made up shit because 100% of use are aware of our own fertility, it's kind of what can make us trans in the first place. And the dating market is fucking booming, most trans people end up being in relationships because it's easier to be in one since we're comfortable with ourselves. But hey, what do I know, I've only been in more relationships, sexual encounters and friend groups after transitioning, and same goes for everyone else I know.

No one gives a shit about where you come from, and I feel nothing but pity that anyone, cis or trans, has to deal with what I can only assume is the fallout of your warped, hole addled mind. You're clearly the fucking expert, time to prove all these western doctors and psychs wrong backed with actual research, expertise, facts and studies. Otherwise your ramblings are just your personal feelings being hurt because you went out of your way to throw a temper tantrum about shit that doesn't effect you in anyway.

If you actually gave any single amount of shit about suicides, you'd take the time to look up or atleast think of why trans people try or think about it in the first place. I don't know if you have to capacity to put two and two together, but a big part of it is people like you. Treating us like shit, then wondering why we think life and society is not worth living, it's not fucking rocket science. The thing is though, you don't actually give any fuck about trans suicides, you egg it on, you're happy with how it was.

It's not like there was a meta study on the positive effects of transitioning on trans adults, and more and more studies for the positive effects on trans kids' mental health too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Friendly 1 | Creative 1


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## Jim (May 4, 2021)

Natty said:


> Ultimately, my choice didn't matter because I was outted within the first few months of my joining and that was immediately met with hostility.


huh? why would someone bother outting you?
Were they trying to explain the magical exclusive font of transgenders to everyone?

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 4, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> Spare us natty, there are no benefits to transitioning outside of fetish fulfillment.


Sure if you despise trans people and wish them to be miserable then I can see where you're coming from. But most of us are better then that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallax (May 4, 2021)

Kisame3rd14 said:


> How is Citizen health not a priority when we spend more than any other comparable countries?



Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah


*breathes *

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahanahahahahahahahahahahah

Thats fucking hilarious

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Parallax (May 4, 2021)

aiyanah said:


> This is some of the most peak drivel I've ever come across.
> Spare us natty, there are no benefits to transitioning outside of fetish fulfillment.
> If you don't know that now then you will know it in time and you'll be asking us just what exactly it is that people let you do to yourself.


Shut the fuck up go back to smoking weed

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Parallax (May 4, 2021)

Parallax said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
> 
> 
> *breathes *
> ...



Also back to this

I wish i was stupid enough not to consider privatization is why americans spend the most on health care, sounds blissful

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Death Certificate (May 4, 2021)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> You can speak as bigoted and cruelly about minorities as you want, even calling trans people mentally ill





aiyanah said:


> by definition they are. literally.
> how do you want people to square that one for you?





aiyanah said:


> This is some of the most peak drivel I've ever come across.



Is there anything that aiyanah brings aside from being a stupid transphobe

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (May 4, 2021)

Death Certificate said:


> Is there anything that aiyanah brings aside from being a stupid transphobe


Aiyanah? More like Aiyanatola amirite? As far as trans rights go at least.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Island (May 4, 2021)

Okay, we're done here.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Informative 1


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