# (Chapter 645) BM Minato Namikaze vs Hashirama Senju



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2013)

Just seeing how Minato can do now.

Battlefield: Madara vs Five Kages
Starting Distance: 50 Meters
Restriction: Any and all suppression abilities from Hashirama.
Knwoeldge: Rep for both.

Who wins?


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## raizen28 (Sep 5, 2013)

No Plot Restrictions+Shadow Clones+Hiraishin+[possible Edo Tensei]=Blonde Blitzkrieg


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## Trojan (Sep 5, 2013)

Minato wins. 

using his speed to blitz Hashi, and put a seal on him that will make Hashi his b*tch.

Minato can teleport the Buddha to the sea, or redirect its attack on Hashi. 
the Flower world can be destroyed Via TBB, or teleported, or Minato can dodge it. 

Minato can use his TBB, or the Huge Rassengan with FTG to attack Hashi from different locations. 

Minato is stronger than Hashi.


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## Ƶero (Sep 5, 2013)

Base Minato is confirmed faster than Hashirama so in BM I think he's more than capable of winning. Shinsuusenju is also smaller than the Juubi bomb Minato warped away in base.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 5, 2013)

But suppression and sealing is all Hashirama has ever been able to do to delay Lord Kurama killing him.


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## Almondsand (Sep 5, 2013)

Can't Hashirama subjugate the Kyuubi power?


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## Pein (Sep 5, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Can't Hashirama subjugate the Kyuubi power?



Minato would just teleport right out of it, unlike Naruto who was saved by a hirudora because he was caught by a wood dragon Minato would just warp away.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 5, 2013)

Pein said:


> Minato would just teleport right out of it, unlike Naruto who was saved by a hirudora because he was caught by a wood dragon Minato would just warp away.


...Naruto freed himself from the Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu on his own.


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## Lurko (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm actually goona go with Minato here, Hashi has a chance if he can the gates on Minato but with ftg that's not isn't goona happen.


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## Jagger (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm honestly not sure about this. Hashirama's surpressing abilities is what gave him the edge of the fight against Jinchuuriki due the massive chakra that was it being released. Now, without it, I don't really see anything bar Shinsuusenju capable of stopping Minato. Even with the huge Buddha attacking him constantly Minato can easily escape from the multiple attacks, but I don't believe he can warp away the Buddha's fists. We don't know if he has such level of multi-tasking or an amount of things he can warp away at the same time.


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## Pein (Sep 5, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Naruto freed himself from the Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu on his own.



Oh yeah, it was susanoo that got blasted. Oh well, point still stands how could Hashirama restrain Minato if Minato can warp away?

Edo Minato has joined the ranks of Hashirama and Madara and thanks to hiraishin I think he's surpassed both.


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Sep 5, 2013)

BM Minato takes this. Minato's inherent haxness combined with the raw power and versatility of bijuu mode is just too much. 



Jagger said:


> but I don't believe he can warp away the Buddha's fists. We don't know if he has such level of multi-tasking or an amount of things he can warp away at the same time.



Why not just warp the whole damn thing away? He warped a massive juubidama comparable in size in base.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 6, 2013)

I don't know.

 BM Minato was never stated to surpass Hashirama while BSM Naruto was stated to possibly be able to surpass the previous hokages. 

 BM Minato seems equal to BM Naruto IMO.


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## Ersa (Sep 6, 2013)

Once again people overhype someone's feats because it recently happened. Remember when Hashirama and Madara finally displayed VOTE feats? Yeah this will die down in time.

Bijuu Mode Minato puts up a hell of a fight but gets murked by Hashirama eventually. Nothing he has shown indicates to me he can take down someone as versatile and insanely haxed as Hashirama, granted with FTG and BM+ speed he won't go down easy.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Once again people overhype someone's feats because it recently happened. Remember when Hashirama and Madara finally displayed VOTE feats? Yeah this will die down in time.
> 
> Bijuu Mode Minato puts up a hell of a fight but gets murked by Hashirama eventually. Nothing he has shown indicates to me he can take down someone as versatile and insanely haxed as Hashirama, granted with FTG and BM+ speed he won't go down easy.



and what can Hashirama do to him exactly? 
he will be extremely lucky to even manage to hit him once!


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## Ersa (Sep 6, 2013)

Elia said:


> and what can Hashirama do to him exactly?
> he will be extremely lucky to even manage to hit him once!


Plenty actually, he can destroy any tags Minato places down, drain chakra with mass Mokuton when he can actually catch Minato. Also Hashirama has stamina comparable to 100% Kyuubi so Minato isn't outlasting him. Flower World is also an option, Minato lacks knowledge on that while Hashirama knows FTG inside out.

What can Minato do to Hashirama?

Rasengan? 

Bijuudama against the guy who is best suited to countering Bijuudamas in the whole series bar RS/Juubiobito/Minato himself?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

Flower world ends Minato.

Hiraishin was his brother's jutsu, and Hashirama was the undisputed stronger of the two.  He should know how to win this fight.

Minato's key ability is to control the battlefield, and to evade any attack.  Those are worthless when your opponent casually assaults then entire battlefield at once.



Kyokan said:


> Plenty actually, he can destroy any tags Minato places down, drain chakra with mass Mokuton when he can actually catch Minato. Also* Hashirama has stamina comparable to 100% Kyuubi *so Minato isn't outlasting him.
> 
> What can Minato do to Hashirama?
> 
> ...



Not quite.  100% Kyuubi plus Minato's chakra plus Naruto chakra with maybe the entire alliance added in depending on interpretation has chakra comparable to Hashirama.  That's without even factoring in Sage Mode refreshing him constantly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Plenty actually, he can destroy any tags Minato places down, drain chakra with mass Mokuton when he can actually catch Minato. Also* Hashirama has stamina comparable to 100% Kyuubi *so Minato isn't outlasting him.
> 
> What can Minato do to Hashirama?
> 
> ...



Not quite.  100% Kyuubi plus Minato's chakra plus Naruto chakra with maybe the entire alliance added in depending on interpretation has chakra comparable to Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Plenty actually, he can destroy any tags Minato places down, drain chakra with mass Mokuton when he can actually catch Minato. Also Hashirama has stamina comparable to 100% Kyuubi so Minato isn't outlasting him.
> 
> What can Minato do to Hashirama?
> 
> ...



1- the Tags never disappear, so no, he can NOT destroy a thing. 
2- You do realize that Base Minato speed is much faster than Hashi, right? 
3- Says who? Hashi's chakra is compared to the chakra that naruto HAD SHARED. 
anything else, I think you may find it in his fans' fanfiction.net

4- Lol, and what if Minato teleported behind him and fired his TBB? or if he teleported the attack
directly to him as he did against obito? 

5- the best? says who? I did not see him do anything to the TBBs that obito used 2 chapters
ago. lol


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Not quite.  100% Kyuubi plus Minato's chakra plus Naruto chakra with maybe the entire alliance added in depending on interpretation has chakra comparable to Hashirama.



say that here, my good sir


we are talking about the reality in the manga, sir, not fanfiction.


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

Hashirama calls Minato an impressive shinobi that he's proud to fight.

Then he kills him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

Elia said:


> say that here, my good sir
> 
> 
> we are talking about the reality in the manga, sir, not fanfiction.



My fanfiction wouldn't be so stupid.

freed himself from the Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu on his own.

Hashirama says a battlefield of 100% kyuubi and Minato and Naruto chakra is comparable to his.

Remember that Minato Hiraishined everyone, because his chakra was in contact with them, so his chakra is in there too along with Naruto's.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My fanfiction wouldn't be so stupid.
> 
> freed himself from the Mokuton: Ryu no Jutsu on his own.
> 
> ...



No he did not. 



Hashi was talking about the chakra that Naruto HAD SHARED. and he did not even know that it
has Kurama's chakra at first. 

that was Viz translation, and here is takl's


oh and he only said "HE" by the way, I don't know from where you got "they" (Minato & the whole alliance. LOL)


- Oh, and you do remember that Kurama was not even at full power and because of that
he asked the other half to give him SOME of his chakra? 


> so his chakra is in there too along with Naruto's.


and you do realize that was not all of their chakra, right? because otherwise, Naruto would have
been dead without chakra.  or he won't be able to use his BM.

anyway, it's obvious that Hashi was talking about the shared chakra only. Or bring the proof
that he was talking about that chakra and Naruto, Kurama, amd Minato's FULL chakra
because I'm sure that only exist in his fans' fanfiction.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Hashirama calls Minato an impressive shinobi that he's proud to fight.
> 
> Then he kills him.


With what? Hashirama can't suppress the fox's power, can't touch Minato due to Hiraishin, Minato can casually warp all of his attacks away and nuke him with a Super Bijudama. 

The fact he's holding his own against Juubito means Hashirama doesn't have an easy time at ALL even if he does win. The Hashirama wank is getting out of control.


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## Rocky (Sep 6, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Plenty actually, he can destroy any tags Minato places down, drain chakra with mass Mokuton when he can actually catch Minato. Also Hashirama has stamina comparable to 100% Kyuubi so Minato isn't outlasting him. Flower World is also an option, Minato lacks knowledge on that while Hashirama knows FTG inside out.



Minato can spread tags around the stupid big Ten-Tails without anyone taking notice. Hashirama doesn't have _that_ large of a range. Minato's current opponent is Jubito, who certainly doesn't have less AoE than Hashirama, and yet Minato's tags are still functional. 



> What can Minato do to Hashirama?
> 
> Rasengan?



I think that Great Big Massive Super Large Kyuubi Rasengan would be problematic if it landed.



> Bijuudama against the guy who is best suited to countering Bijuudamas in the whole series bar RS/Juubiobito/Minato himself?



Have you ever heard of the "instant transmission Kamehameha?" 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Flower world ends Minato.



The Kyuubi shell should protect Minato, just as Rib-Cage Susano'o protected Sasuke from Mei's mist.



> Hiraishin was his brother's jutsu, and Hashirama was the undisputed stronger of the two.  He should know how to win this fight.



I don't think Hashirama would be 100% comfortable approaching a Kyuubi with Space & Time mastery without his suppression abilities.  



> Minato's key ability is to control the battlefield, and to evade any attack.  Those are worthless when your opponent casually assaults then entire battlefield at once.



Maybe Base Minato's, but hey, Base Naruto's key ability was Kage Bunshin. Bijuu Mode opens up new paths to take. 

If you really think about it, the only attack Hashirama possesses that can get through that Lazerbeam tanking Kurama avatar is Shinsuusenju. The problem with that is the statue is a massive target for warping, just as the Juubi's super Bijuudama was. Hashirama doesn't have as complete a defense as Minato, and without his suppression, I think he falls here because of that. Seriously, anything Minato can't tank he can warp away, and Hashirama isn't going to avoid Minato's roof tier speed for long.


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> With what? Hashirama can't suppress the fox's power, can't touch Minato due to Hiraishin, Minato can casually warp all of his attacks away and nuke him with a Super Bijudama.
> 
> The fact he's holding his own against Juubito means Hashirama doesn't have an easy time at ALL even if he does win. The Hashirama wank is getting out of control.



It's genuinely annoying that you call everything that disagrees with you either a deliberate falsification or wank.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> It's genuinely annoying that you call everything that disagrees with you either a deliberate falsification or wank.


Sorry, but it does come off as wank at this point. Minato can actually do something to Obito at this point, while Hashirama can't, how doesn't that at least not put Minato on Hashirama's level?


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

It's wank in _your opinion_. Opinions are _subjective_.

You fling out those terms far too freely at people who disagree with you, it's what made me stop posting here recently.

I finally found the time to put my thoughts into words. Then the first response was you claiming I was deliberately lying to perpetuate an agenda. Your attitude is abrasive enough that it limits any enjoyment to debate with you.


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## Bonly Jr. (Sep 6, 2013)

Minato wins. He's done solo'd the manga, that's it.


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## Bonly (Sep 6, 2013)

I'd go with Hashi more times then not. Minato is using Tobi's jutsu so Hashi who is above Tobi shouldn't have to many problems with it. Add in his own version of Byakugo and his wood which he can use to protect himself from Minato's attacks, I see him winning it in the end.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

Elia said:


> No he did not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The shared chakra is full kyuubi plus Minato plus Naruto.  

Evidence:

The teleport move and sharing only worked because Minato and Naruto combined their chakra pool.  That's how Minato's chakra was touching everyone in the alliance.  Tobirama explained that.  Minato's chakra is his chakra and the Kyuubi he has, who Yin Yang merged with Naruto whose chakra is synced with the kyuubi, and they took the chakra of, "The four of us working together!" to spread it out across the battlefield and teleport everyone.

So HE, i.e. Naruto, was sharing the combined chakra of 2 Kyuubi Halves plus his own plus Minatos merged together.  There's no other way it works.  

Now let's look more at the translation.

Hashirama senses a big output of chakra.  Then does Hashirama say, "Naruto shared almost as much chakra as I have."?  Which is your interpretation.

No.  He says, "Naruto has almost as much chakra as I!"  Which basically means, "Naruto shared a giant amount of chakra, and in order to give away that much chakra to everyone he has to have chakra stores like mine."

Hashirama even notes they're tapping into the Kyuubi to do it. 

So Hashirama only initially speculates that Naruto has as much chakra as him. Then he realises he's sensing the combined everything.


That's why I said, based on interpretation, you could say he's might be talking about the entire alliance-since everyone is going to have their chakra mixed into the cloaks he's sensing, and we just agreed that he initially diddn't differentiate between the elements of the chakra.  So the Viz translation is Hashirama saying, "Oh man, Naruto has a ton of chakra!  Wait no he doesn't, it's actually him plus the kyuubi." In the first part of this post, I've just shown how "him" is 2 Kyuubi's plus Minato, and by translation .  Mechanically, it has to be so.

takl's translation supports this.



> he competes with me in volume of chakra.
> 
> ! nay! *this is along* with 9bs chakra



Naruto+9tails competes with Hashirama.  Not "Naruto's shared chakra alone competes with me."  

I also read the first translation you posted, and it ended with the translator giving their opinion that they don't think Hashi has that much chakra.  Which makes it their interpretation of what they read, based on what they think makes sense.

As far as Naruto not giving all of his chakra, well, Hashirama never said it would drain him severely to perform that same feat either.  Obviously they'd both have chakra left over to do other stuff.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...HOW THE FUCK haven't we seen Hashirama go all out? His entire battle against EMS Madara shows all he can do. It showed his best attack, it showed his speed, it showed his tactical thinking.
> 
> SM Hashirama already TRIED with Senjutsu on Obito's first form: It did didly squat. Obito didn't even register him. Naruto and Minato, who are surviving and actually PRESSURING Obito is better than anything Hashirama's done.
> 
> And you'd claim Biju Sage Mode Naruto is still below SM Hashirama? Seriously?



When has it been stated that that was his strongest technique? He's been pulling shit out of his ass. On the other hand Minato has been constantly getting Kurama boosted because he was far to weak in base. 

What senjutsu attack did he try?

How the FUCK can Hashirama do shit Obito when he's in the middle of battling Madara? You under the impression that he should just handle Madara with zero effort?

And yes Hashirama is stronger them BM Naruto by hype and implication.


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

Regardless, acting like your opinion is divine gospel gets irritating. People can and do reach different conclusions without it being an agenda to bring down Naruto's almighty power. 

There's no need to instantly resort to attacking the person for their opinion, as opposed to simply debating them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> When has it been stated that that was his strongest technique? He's been pulling shit out of his ass. On the other hand Minato has been constantly getting Kurama boosted because he was far to weak in base.


Senpo: Mokuton: Shinsusenju is most definitely the strongest technique in his arsenal. Dwarfs mountains and Kurama. The way it was presented it was his most powerful technique.


> What senjutsu attack did he try?


Same Senjutsu technique he used to hold down bloated Jyubi. Senpo: Myojinmon, which did didly squat to Obito in his first form. 


> How the FUCK can Hashirama do shit Obito when he's in the middle of battling Madara? You under the impression that he should just handle Madara with zero effort?


Except the manga's shown, unlike Naruto and Minato, he can't do anything to Obito. His own Senjutsu attack, which doubles as a 'sealing'  technique didn't even register to Obito in his first form. 


> And yes Hashirama is stronger them BM Naruto by hype and implication.


Biju Mode Naruto has the feats, hype, and application to be just as strong as Hashirama if not stronger, especially due to his feats. Biju Sage Mode Naruto, combining the best of both worlds is above Hashirama and before that, even Sage Mode Naruto was directly compared to Hashirama by Tobirama AND he has the feat of damaging Obito which Hashirama doesn't.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

I think there's a difference between dropping a seal amped by senjutsu, and drilling an exploding ball of senjutsu into someone.  

The difference being that one needs to have to power to restrain all of Jubito's condensed power to hold him, and the other being that it just needs to drillsplode on him.  

The sealing pillars also don't cause senjutsu powered damage to his body.  They just cause the damage a giant rock would if it fell on his head, which he's immune to.  The sempo rasengan, again, causes direct physical damage.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I think there's a difference between dropping a seal amped by senjutsu, and drilling an exploding ball of senjutsu into someone.
> 
> The difference being that one needs to have to power to restrain all of Jubito's condensed power to hold him, and the other being that it just needs to drillsplode on him.
> 
> The sealing pillars also don't cause senjutsu powered damage to his body.  They just cause the damage a giant rock would if it fell on his head, which he's immune to.  The sempo rasengan, again, causes direct physical damage.


It should have still been classified as an offensive technique, Pirate on Wheels. Especially with the nail effect that Hashirama used. It was both an attempt to bind him, AND damage if not kill him by the force.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It should have still been classified as an offensive technique, Pirate on Wheels. Especially with the nail effect that Hashirama used. It was both an attempt to bind him, AND damage if not kill him by the force.



Well, yeah, but by blunt force, is what I'm saying.  Obviously dropping a giant thing on someone's head, even if it's primarily a sealing move, is going to smash them.

But punches are also smashing, and I don't think punching people with sage enhanced strength makes you punches damage the enemy with sage energy, is what I'm saying.  But if you stab them with sage enhanced chidori hands, then it would, or if you use kawaze kumite to punch them with pure natural energy, then it would, but the sage energy inside the pillar itself isn't being used offensively, is what I'm saying, even if the pillar is.


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## Ersa (Sep 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato can spread tags around the stupid big Ten-Tails without anyone taking notice. Hashirama doesn't have _that_ large of a range. Minato's current opponent is Jubito, who certainly doesn't have less AoE than Hashirama, and yet Minato's tags are still functional.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hashirama knows how FTG works however, he's fought along his brother all his life so he knows tags and potentially kunai (due to the marking) are a no-go, he can keep them away from him with Mokuton. He has enough range for that.

If it landed, if Minato can't get a tag near him then he stands no chance of hitting Hashirama with the said jutsu; anything bar a Hiraishin blitz Hashirama can sense and defend from with his wood 

Instant transmission doesn't require the person to be tagged


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 6, 2013)

Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin and Bunshin assault

Hashirama wins with low-mid difficulty.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin and Bunshin assault
> 
> Hashirama wins with low-mid difficulty.


Minato can do Bushin's too, is faster than Hashirama by quite the amount in his base form, has superior firepower in Biju Mode which Hashirama doesn't have anything to actually scratch it, and Minato's Hiraishin + immediate Bijudama or giant Rasengan to Hashirama's face never registers to you?


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

Hashirama can casually relocate across entire battlefields in base, and Minato can fodderise him with non-Hiraishin speed?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Hashirama can casually relocate across entire battlefields in base, and Minato can fodderise him with non-Hiraishin speed?


Minato's shunshin speed is superior to Hashirama's. Hashirama and Tobirama have the same level of speed, and Tobirama already admitted Minato's shunshin was faster than his. Minato could scatter tags around the entire Jyubi before anyone could follow. So yeah, Minato can speedblitz him.


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## Azula (Sep 6, 2013)

> What can Minato do to Hashirama?
> 
> Rasengan?



isnt rasengan>wood 

didly squat to Obito in his first form

didly squat to Obito in his first form

bigger wood, bigger rasengan


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

> Maybe Base Minato's, but hey, Base Naruto's key ability was Kage Bunshin. Bijuu Mode opens up new paths to take.
> 
> If you really think about it, the only attack Hashirama possesses that can get through that Lazerbeam tanking Kurama avatar is Shinsuusenju. The problem with that is the statue is a massive target for warping, just as the Juubi's super Bijuudama was. Hashirama doesn't have as complete a defense as Minato, and without his suppression, I think he falls here because of that. Seriously, anything Minato can't tank he can warp away, and Hashirama isn't going to avoid Minato's roof tier speed for long.



Re-locate it where?


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato's shunshin speed is superior to Hashirama's. Hashirama and Tobirama have the same level of speed, and Tobirama already admitted Minato's shunshin was faster than his. Minato could scatter tags around the entire Jyubi before anyone could follow. So yeah, Minato can speedblitz him.



Hashirama has casually leaped across distances that would be drawn on a map.
He's reacted to Susano'o strikes that can decapitate multiple mountains in the same panel. He's temporarily outrun and reacted to a Bijuudama.

So:


Where is it stated that Tobirama and Hashirama possess the same speed?
Keep in mind that this is Hashirama's speed in base.

I'm not necessarily saying Hashirama can out-speed Minato without Hiraishin, but the idea that this guy is going to be standing still while Minato moonwalks around him.... seems dubious.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Hashirama has casually leaped across distances that would be drawn on a map.
> He's reacted to Susano'o strikes that can decapitate multiple mountains in the same panel. He's temporarily outrun and reacted to a Bijuudama.
> 
> So:
> ...


Tobirama and Hashirama appear at the same speed. Minato using his Shunshin goes around the gigantic, 100 kilometer crater that they're fighting the Jyubi in to spread the tags. Tobirama is known for his speed and he's as fast if not a bit faster than Hashirama.

Minato's speed was hyped up in the manga, with his Shunshin even being mistaken for his Hiraishin. Hashirama's never been hyped up for speed at all.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 6, 2013)

> Hashirama has casually leaped across distances that would be drawn on a map



It's funny that this isn't even speculation, inference, or extrapolation.  It's canon that you need to redraw maps when Hashirama and Madara fought, and they created several battlefields.  Almost the entirety of the SRA arc took place of the locations Hashirama and Madara grew and carved from one battle.

The mountain crossing also took place.  On panel.  With whooshy marks streaming from him.  In base.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's funny that this isn't even speculation, inference, or extrapolation.  It's canon that you need to redraw maps when Hashirama and Madara fought, and they created several battlefields.  Almost the entirety of the SRA arc took place of the locations Hashirama and Madara grew and carved from one battle.
> 
> The mountain crossing also took place.  On panel.  With whooshy marks streaming from him.  In base.


And Minato, in base without Hiraishin could blitz Kurama from all the way across Konoha, summon Gamabunta and do Kushiyoise: Toad Food Court Destroyer before Kurama could even fire off a Bijudama. In base. Without Hiraishin.


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## trance (Sep 6, 2013)

> Restriction: Any and all suppression abilities from Hashirama.



You just gimped Hashirama. 

His bijū suppression and subjugation is what made his Mokuton seemingly invincible.

Now, without that, he has to fight a more focused and precised version of Kurama that can move instantly to any location at will as long as it's marked (which won't be hard with Minato's immense natural speed plus BM _drastically_ enhancing it) and that even if caught or restrained, he can easily break out of it (since it lacks suppression). 

Hashirama can hold out for awhile with his bijūdama-catching Wood Golem, Quintuple Rashōmon, excellent medical ninjutsu and top tier other stats but he won't win.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato can do Bushin's too,



Your point?



> is faster than Hashirama by quite the amount in his base form,



The thing is... I don't think Hashirama was using Shunshin, but he *still* managed to outrun a Bijuudama; that feat is worthy of praise. In my opinion, he is faster and more reflexive than Minato (bar Hiraishin) - with the Kyuubi enhancements, as well - and the former is aware of the aforementioned applications, considering his brother invented the technique.



> has superior firepower in Biju Mode



Umm... No.
Shinsuusenju spits into Minato's asshole and fucks him like a dirty slut.

Even then, Hashirama can throw around Tailed Beast Balls - casually, at that - and his Mokuton has the power to drain chakra-filled demons that are supposedly feared by mankind. Additionally, the man's reserves are comparable to that of 100% Kyuubi, Minato and Naruto (possibly the entire alliance, too), meaning he has reached a league of his own.

What does that tell you, SSM12?



> which Hashirama doesn't have anything to actually scratch it,



Which is completely false...

As soon as Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin is unleashed, it won't be too long before Minato is unconscious. If you think he will shoot a Bijuudama, the pathetic attempt is countered by Mokuton. 

Why would Minato wanna blow himself up, anyway?

Nothing is stopping Hashirama from bringing out Kokuangyo, either, and Minato would have to rely on his senses. That = Disadvantage



> and Minato's Hiraishin



The mere fact Hashirama can manipulate the battlefield - at will, mind you - with trees that suck you dry... is the reason why he is a Jin's worst nightmare. With the exception of retreating, Hiraishin isn't going to help Minato, and he will be trying to parry the endless assaults of Mokuton (if anything). 



> immediate Bijudama or giant Rasengan to Hashirama's face



You can't kill what hasn't been touched... unless you're Itachi, of course. 



> never registers to you?



...


----------



## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

Cordelia I saw your post, it was a good one.


----------



## Ƶero (Sep 6, 2013)

Hashirama can die to a kunai, this is canon, he is not surviving a rasengan that was used against Juubito. Who hashi cofirmed he is weaker than. 

Minato is faster. Check
Minato is unaffected by suppression. Check
Hashiramas strongest technique can be warped away. Check
Minato has more than enough firepower to kill him. Check.
Minato can FTG + TBB him into tiny bits. Check

lol'd at flower world. Yes the technique that couldnt work on one of the Gokage will work on Minato who is faster than all of them combined. Good joke. 

He doesnt even have to TP away his BM Kyuubi cloak protects him. I love how people's reason for Hashirama winning is because he's Hashirama. Not good enough. Minato with BM and FTG is too much even for Hashirama.


----------



## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tobirama and Hashirama appear at the same speed. Minato using his Shunshin goes around the gigantic, 100 kilometer crater that they're fighting the Jyubi in to spread the tags. Tobirama is known for his speed and he's as fast if not a bit faster than Hashirama.
> 
> Minato's speed was hyped up in the manga, with his Shunshin even being mistaken for his Hiraishin. Hashirama's never been hyped up for speed at all.



They appeared at the same time?

Is that like when Tsunade and Ei traversed to the battlefield at the same time?

You _really_ need to stop making these leaps in logic and treating it like canon. Is it a point in favour? Yes. Is it a valid opinion? Yes. Is it explicitly canon? No. It's your interpretation, and you need to learn to differentiate the two.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> They appeared at the same time?
> 
> Is that like when Tsunade and Ei traversed to the battlefield at the same time?
> 
> You _really_ need to stop making these leaps in logic and treating it like canon. Is it a point in favour? Yes. Is it a valid opinion? Yes. Is it explicitly canon? No. It's your interpretation, *and you need to learn to differentiate the two*.



The Irony in that one. 

***
In topic, Minato has surpassed Hashi, there is nothing that Hashi can do to him.


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## Jak N Blak (Sep 6, 2013)

Patience. Next week Minato shall create more tears aswell.

People know Minato is more than capable of defeating Hashirama right now.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

Kushina also can suppress kurama, does that make her stronger than naruto ??! 

Naruto is stronger than hashi, and the later wont be able to suppress him because of 
Naruto's speed.


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## Sans (Sep 6, 2013)

Elia said:


> The Irony in that one.
> 
> ***
> In topic, Minato has surpassed Hashi, there is nothing that Hashi can do to him.



If you can point out examples where I've been clearly declaring my own opinions as author fiat, I would be grateful if you could point them out.

It's something that I try and avoid nowadays, so catching when I haven't done so would be appreciated.


----------



## ImSerious (Sep 6, 2013)

hashi cant compete.

minato leaves your fav in the dust. thats just how it goes


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## Jagger (Sep 6, 2013)

Hashirama most likely loses this match due the lack of suppressing abilities, that's right. But, a SM Hashirama without restrictions wins against a BM Minato. People, stop wanking for once in your life and see the logic in front of you.

Hashirama can easily change the whole shapeland in seconds as shown in his fight with Madara at VoTe. If Minato tries to escape somewhere, he'll eventually get caught by the amount of Mokuton that is around the area. If the Mokuton Dragon or Mokujin get a hold on Minato and absorb his chakra, things will start going bad for him.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

^ 
He can teleport them away, or teleport himself, that won't take even a second!


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## batman22wins (Sep 6, 2013)

Do anybody read the manga. Hashi is the strongest.


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## SSMG (Sep 6, 2013)

Wouldn't minato teleporting while the dragon is stealing his chakra also teleport the wood.dragon with minato? since anything connected to minatos chakra goes with him and it'd definitely be connected to his chakra if its stealing his chakra.


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## Ƶero (Sep 6, 2013)

batman22wins said:


> Do anybody read the manga. Hashi is the strongest.



You should keep up to date. Minato is holding his own against someone Hashi admitted he is weaker than. Minato is the strongest Hokage right now.




SSMG said:


> Wouldn't minato teleporting while the dragon is stealing his chakra also teleport the wood.dragon with minato? since anything connected to minatos chakra goes with him and it'd definitely be connected to his chakra if its stealing his chakra.



Enton Rasenshuriken was touching Minato's KCM chakra cloak but he still warped away without it. Minato chooses what he warps with and what he doesnt.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> By feats and implication, BM Naruto is superior to Kurama himself due to the fact a Jinchuriki always is able to power up, use the Biju's power correctly, AND doesn't throw the Biju power around randomly.


a tangible power difference was only mentioned in juubitos case.


> And no, he hasn't. If he has, Naruto would have been fodderized by Edo Madara-which he wasn't. In fact he made Edo Madara get serious something Edo Hashirama has been unable to do.


this made me LOL. madara is using his full power against hashirama and the most that madara used against naruto is basic wood release and incomplete susano.


> The manga makes it clear when a Jinchuriki controls its Biju, it focuses the power and makes it stronger. We've seen this through BM Naruto and Juubito.


this has only been stated for juubito. i dont know why you are trying to apply naruto to this rule.


----------



## SSMG (Sep 6, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> Enton Rasenshuriken was touching Minato's KCM chakra cloak but he still warped away without it. Minato chooses what he warps with and what he doesnt.



I thought abput this and it would be a viable refute to my post but the wood dragon would be stealing his chakra so it'd be connected to minato wheter he wants it to be or not.


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## RedChidori (Sep 6, 2013)

Hashi takes this one.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

batman22wins said:


> Do anybody read the manga. Hashi is the strongest.



you surely dont. Bring one page, no even half a page that mentioned Hashi
as the strongest?


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Hashirama can casually relocate across entire battlefields in base.



So can Minato. 

He jumped across Konoha, which is the size of a city, to attack Kurama. 

The Bijuu Mode attribute boost applied to Minato's natural speed is problematic for anyone not named Obito.  



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Re-locate it where?



The middle of the ocean? A random valley somewhere? I don't know, but I do know that he has plenty of tags scattered across the lands, as he's never had trouble relocating something far away.


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## Bonly Jr. (Sep 6, 2013)

Why haven't people jumped on the Minato bandwagon yet? I'm ashamed man, like really. He's currently top 5, has awesome hair, has an awesome coat, has an awesome son, bangs some redhead and is running riot with one arm.

Minato is just too good. Just too good.


----------



## Jagger (Sep 6, 2013)

And this is why I hate everytime Minato is on the manga, he gets overrated by fanboys.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Jagger said:


> And this is why I hate everytime Minato is on the manga, he gets overrated by fanboys.


Before this week, I'd have agreed. But the second he got Biju Mode, Minato gained the ability to at least fight Hashirama, Sage Mode or not, on equal terms if not having an edge due to combining the insane firepower and durability with Hiraishin.


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## Ƶero (Sep 6, 2013)

Jagger said:


> And this is why I hate everytime Minato is on the manga, he gets overrated by fanboys.



Thats funny considering you're underrating BM Minato and overrating Hashirama. 

Minato is simply faster, stronger and smarter.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Before this week, I'd have agreed. But the second he got Biju Mode, Minato gained the ability to at least fight Hashirama, Sage Mode or not, on equal terms if not having an edge due to combining the insane firepower and durability with Hiraishin.



Actually Hashi is the one who's extremely overrated! his fans and wankers actually believe
he can even defeat obito! 

go and create MB Minato & BSM Naruto against him and I am sure some geniuses will say
base Hashi win low-med difficult!


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## Bonly Jr. (Sep 6, 2013)

No one's overrating Minato.. atm, he just *that OP*. A teleporting Kurama avatar capable of shooting TBB's? It's a joke.


----------



## Darkmaiar (Sep 6, 2013)

Minato wins, because of Hashirama's restrictions. Full-power Sage Mode Hashirama still beats BM Minato.


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## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2013)

Hashirama wins. 

Hashirama can alter the terrain in a much bigger scale than even Madara, who was cutting mountains with ease. So Minato's kunais will be hardly effective.  And his only choice is tagging him. The battle will go in one of both ways:

Or Minato runs out of Kunais and he can only use tags to dodge, tags that will be destroyed when Hashi changes the landscape until he is hit.

Or Hashirama outlasts Minato with his superior chakra reserves and auto Byakugo and his sage mode, who keeps gathering energy while he fights. 

Hashirama's attacks cover a too big scale. Making Minato's effectiveness with Hiraishin not that effective against such kind of opponent. Dodging is the only way he can survive Hashirama's mokuton. And due to the huge scale of his attacks, even this would be a pain for Minato to do. Especially if he needs to dodge AND redirect.


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## Trojan (Sep 6, 2013)

^

Minato does not need FTG to dodge Hashi's. His base speed is much faster than Hashi.
+
he can use TBB to destroy Hashi's jutsus.


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## Veracity (Sep 6, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> By feats antd implication, BM Naruto is superior to Kurama himself due to the fact a Jinchuriki always is able to power up, use the Biju's power correctly, AND doesn't throw the Biju power around randomly.
> 
> And no, he hasn't. If he has, Naruto would have been fodderized by Edo Madara-which he wasn't. In fact he made Edo Madara get serious something Edo Hashirama has been unable to do.
> 
> The manga makes it clear when a Jinchuriki controls its Biju, it focuses the power and makes it stronger. We've seen this through BM Naruto and Juubito.



The thing is, Naruto has 50% not 100%. This has been stated idk how many times throughout the story. He has FAR less physical strentgh and firepower as that only makes sense. That's why when combining his power with Minato's(50% Kurama) he gets a substantial FP boost.

Really? So Madara isn't serious yet he has been constantly using PS. Did he use PS against Naruto? No. He would have abosolutely destroyed him
If so.

Yet Obito has the full Juubi inside him unlike Naruto.

And I said. A lot more then just this part. You should re read my last post.


----------



## Ƶero (Sep 6, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Hashirama wins.
> 
> Hashirama can alter the terrain in a much bigger scale than even Madara, who was cutting mountains with ease. So Minato's kunais will be hardly effective.  And his only choice is tagging him. The battle will go in one of both ways:
> 
> ...



You've not read the latest chapter have you?

This is the damage Base Minato's tiny Rasengan does, it makes Obito and Minato look tiny:



This is the size of BM Minato's rasengan which dwarfs Minato in comparison.



One hit from that and Hashirama is turned to dust.

Minato base speed >>> Hashirama speed canon.
BM Minato speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hashirama speed.

So he's not avoiding it either.


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 6, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> You've not read the latest chapter have you?
> 
> This is the damage Base Minato's tiny Rasengan does:
> 
> ...



Minato's Hiraishin is the only thing he has to blitz Hashirama. And for that, he needs a tag or a Kunai near him. So yeah, unless he does that, Hashirama is reacting fine to his base and his BM speed.


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## Rocky (Sep 6, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Did he use PS against Naruto? No. He would have abosolutely destroyed himt.



That's delusional. Naruto generates enough energy to deflect 5 mountain busters by merely running. Naruto could block concentrated Tailed Beast Beam Bombs from the Ten-Tails itself, who dwarfed even Kurama in terms of Chakra sale.

On the offensive side, Naruto packs enough to match 5 Biju. Madara has the power to match one, kind of.

Madara's firepower feats and defensive feats are inferior.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 6, 2013)

Besides the hobi technique and the true several thousand hands i do not see why a decent TBB would not destroy any of hashirama's jutsu. Wood dragon gets destroyed by a TBB passing through it, wood golem and the forest gets erased after the explosion. 

Add in the fact that minato can warp away the true several thousand hands and hashirama offense really plummet. Minato also got a constant shield in the form of the kyuubi cloak while hashirama does not and rely on making defenses. Tie that in with instant movement+enormous rasengans or bijuudama's and hashirama will get erased. What does he have to stop a nuke getting teleported into him in a instant?

Hashi was already outdone in speed to the point where it was heavily noticeable by everyone on the forum and now he got firepower and stamina in the same ballpark or close as hashirama and upgraded durability, strength AND SPEED from kurama's chakra.

I just think BM minato is just too damn strong. Members would have probably been laughed at for saying he would get this before the chapter...this is why.


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## Ashi (Sep 6, 2013)

Can we wait for feats from Minato before fangasming about him?


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 6, 2013)

^That's a good point. Minato wouldn't automatically have Hiraishin tags all over the battlefield. Hashirama's reaction and attack speeds are far higher than any base speed Minato has portrayed. He could go after Minato while he puts tags on the battlefield. And kunai can be blocked rather quickly by Mokuton. It wouldn't give him the win, but it does make Minato's advantage far less... advantageous.

Talking about LostSelfs's post btw.


----------



## Ƶero (Sep 6, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> Minato's Hiraishin is the only thing he has to blitz Hashirama. And for that, he needs a tag or a Kunai near him. So yeah, unless he does that, Hashirama is reacting fine to his base and his BM speed.



Minato doesnt need to blitz him here though he arguably could with BM since his base speed and reflexes amplified by BM makes him ridiculously fast considering what BM did for Naruto's speed.

Hashirama also has nothing to hit Minato with. Shinsuusenju is his strongest attack and Base Minato warped away a far bigger Juubi bomb without breaking a sweat. If Minato wanted he could warp it right on top of Hashi. If you think mokuton dragons are going to be fast enough to catch Minato then there's no point in me even replying to you.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 6, 2013)

Minato spread Kunai around the Juubi (which makes Bijuu look like hamsters) before any of the Hokage noticed.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 6, 2013)

I think it's a pretty decent matchup but I see minato winning this.

Hashirama probably has more firepower considering his shinsuusenjuu equaled 11Bijuudama+PS swords barrage, but minato has his warping abilities that really mess hashirama up especially since he can use shadow clones.

Warping bijuudamas + hirashin tags are ridiculously haxed as hashirama's ability to catch a bijuudama is now nonexistant since minato can just warp them right onto wherever his tags are.  Base Minato was able to warp away the super juubidama, I think it wouldn't be difficult at all for KCM let alone BM Minato to warp away shinsuusenjuu, and we've seen that after using one shinsuusenjuu hashirama's chakra is pretty much done for by two reasonings:

1) huffing and puffing before the structure is even completely destroyed 
2) Madara losing the kyuubi after shinsuusenjuu means he would have been stomped by a second one, yet we see neither have won by the time that both are almost drained.

Only problem for minato is getting the tags into those places that he wants to warp the damas to, but he now can make clones and really hasn't ever had problems getting his kunai to places except if we are talking about right on obito's back.  

Bringer of darkness doesn't really do anything since black kurama will just snap him out.

So all in all, Hashirama's non shinsuusenjuu mokuton are pretty much fodder against BM Minato if they can't even withstand a bijuudama and minato has the ability to just warp his damas right on them or next to them.  Shinsuusenjuu can be dealt with a couple of ways and once it's gone, hashirama can't make another.  Same with chakra suppression, it won't work since minato just ports out of it, not like it would even come to that as long as Minato doesn't op to wrestle with hashirama's wood constructs.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> The thing is, Naruto has 50% not 100%. This has been stated idk how many times throughout the story. He has FAR less physical strentgh and firepower as that only makes sense. That's why when combining his power with Minato's(50% Kurama) he gets a substantial FP boost.


100% Kurama still throws around his power randomly. He doesn't use his full power by himself well enough. A Yang Chakra Kurama with Naruto's guidance allowed him to effortlessly create Bijudama's strong enough to overpower the combined might of a Super Bijudama from five Biju, something 100% Kurama is unable to do since he can't focus that insane power.

You don't seem to understand that focused Biju power is far greater than unfocused.



> Really? So Madara isn't serious yet he has been constantly using PS. Did he use PS against Naruto? No. He would have abosolutely destroyed him
> If so.


Perfect Susano'o can't do shit against BM Naruto. BM Naruto tanked a V1 Jubidama without any damage, and BM Naruto has far greater firepower and speed. Stop wanking.


> Yet Obito has the full Juubi inside him unlike Naruto.


No, he doesn't. He'd still need the full amount of Kurama and Gyuki to have a complete Jubi inside him.


> And I said. A lot more then just this part. You should re read my last post.


And you ignore what the manga's shown and said about Naruto. You're just randomly wanking Hashirama and Madara and ignoring Naruto's feats and by extension, Minato's, due to your preference for both. Claiming Perfect Susano'o, which has far less firepower and durability than BM Naruto can defeat BM Naruto is a misnomer


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 6, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Can we wait for feats from Minato before fangasming about him?



Being able to form a BM avatar is a feat.

Being ale to use his ninjutsu he can use in human form in BM is a feat(rasengan for example). Not to mention they get super powered as evident by the size.

Being able to teleport the BM avatar at instant speed is a feat.

Having the full cooperation of a tailed beast is the greatest feat of all. Big resistance against illusions, the ability to be able to form a tail beast ball and a gigantic extra reserve to fall on. Be glad i am not counting his ability to use chakra roars, chakra arms and possible mass shadow clone spam. Not to mention shima and fukusaku.

If you think about it the minato fans are being merciful i think.


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 6, 2013)

We still need to see more for this debate. But one thing is for sure, Minato and Naruto are at least in the same tier as Hashi and Madara.




*Slowly walks away.*


----------



## Darkmaiar (Sep 6, 2013)

^Agreed. That about sums it up.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 6, 2013)

Minato can literally tag every location possible with his speed + KB ability. This fight really isnt even fair. 

BM Minato wins low difficulty.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 6, 2013)

Minato can potentially win by attacking base Hashirama with the very first no-knowledge Hiraishin and cutting off his head.

If Hashirama survives or regenerates from that first no-knowledge Hiraishin, he's going to obliterate Minato in a straightforward fight though. 

Hashirama beats *everyone* but maybe 1-2 characters in a head on battle so not really a hit on Minato's power really.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Minato can potentially win by attacking base Hashirama with the very first no-knowledge Hiraishin and cutting off his head.
> 
> If Hashirama survives or regenerates from that first no-knowledge Hiraishin, he's going to obliterate Minato in a straightforward fight though.
> 
> Hashirama beats *everyone* but maybe 1-2 characters in a head on battle so not really a hit on Minato's power really.


...Hashirama cannot defeat Edo Madara, nor can he defeat Juubito. Minato is literally too fast for Hashirama now and with Biju Mode has the firepower to put him down.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 6, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Minato can potentially win by attacking base Hashirama with the very first no-knowledge Hiraishin and cutting off his head.
> 
> If Hashirama survives or regenerates from that first no-knowledge Hiraishin, he's going to obliterate Minato in a straightforward fight though.
> 
> *Hashirama beats everyone but maybe 1-2 characters in a head on battle so not really a hit on Minato's power really.*



but dude, minato's entire fighting style means it's not going to be a head on battle...


----------



## Lawrence777 (Sep 6, 2013)

> ...Hashirama cannot defeat Edo Madara, nor can he defeat Juubito. Minato is literally too fast for Hashirama now and with Biju Mode has the firepower to put him down.


Hashirama could come closer to defeating either of them than Minato can. I don't see Minato being fast enough to blitz Hashirama with knowledge and senjutsu sensing. 


I doubt anything Minato could do (with biju mode) would even scratch the paint on Hashirama's mokuton variants. We already know what Hashirama is capable of tanking.

 We also know Hashirama can erect defenses mid-bijuu bomb detonation or in between a shot bijuu bomb reaching its target. In base. Without sensing.

Hashirama can make at least 25 clones to mix up between.

If by some miracle Minato does hit the right one:
SM Hashirama presumably has Tsunade's Byakuguo, except his is receiving the passive nature energy boost sage mode grants making its regeneration even more powerful.





> but dude, minato's entire fighting style means it's not going to be a head on battle...


There's not much Minato can do to prevent a head on battle. 
Hashirama can just sense Minato  then take the battle to him.

When he finds Minato, Hashirama can just carpet bomb Minato's area including his tags.

Minato maybe able to repel lower end mokuton with rasengans like Naruto was able to. Minato's not stopping Hashirama's higher end senjutsu enhanced  mokutons from destroying his entire vicinity including his tags though. Then there's also the fact Hashirama will outlast just half kyuubi chakra wise.

Hashi can't Bansho Tennin rocks out of orbit but he's still fairy-tale power-level. That's just how he's been depicted by the author and he has the feats to back it up.  

This guy beat full kyuubi into a bloody pulp, tore susanoo off it, sealed it, and then turned around and soloed EMS Madara


----------



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

^

You do know that Minato can know the clones by his finger sensing ability, right? 

How is sensing will help exactly? Like when Mu's sensing ability helped him against Naruto's
jutsu you mean? You do realize the GAP in speed between them, right?



> I doubt anything Minato could do (with biju mode) would even scratch the paint on Hashirama's mokuton variants.



LOL, you do know that other than his Buddha every jutsu of his had got destroyed by a TBB, or even
weaker attacks, right? 



> Hashirama can just sense Minato then take the battle to him.



Nonsense, even Naruto whos FAR better than Hashi at sensing couldn't sense Minato
when he used FTG. 



> When he finds Minato, Hashirama can just carpet bomb Minato's area including his tags.



he won't, you just make a lot of assumptions and make everything in Hashi's favor. lol 

you do know that FTG tags don't disappear, right?


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 7, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> There's not much Minato can do to prevent a head on battle.
> Hashirama can just sense Minato  then take the battle to him.


By the time he actually senses minato let alone physically reacts to minato's position it'll be to late, he'll take a giant bijuumode rasengan or a bijuudama, rapidfire bijuudama or super bijuudama.   minato's not going to teleport away, hide, and try to sneak up on hashirama.  If you've watched any of his fights, he teleports to counterattack immediately, bypassing the reactions of his opponents and any kind of defense that they might try to muster.  So instead of facing Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu head on, hell teleport behind it and blow it away from there like he did to Ei, like he did to Obito, that's what I mean by not a head on battle.



Lawrence777 said:


> When he finds Minato, Hashirama can just carpet bomb Minato's area including his tags.


carpet bomb with what?  Shinsuusenjuu is the only only thing that I can think of that can actually carpet bomb an area anything else is fodderized by a single as none of it can withstand the blast of one.  And unless he's using shinsuusenjuu, i don't see how his lower mokutons destroy minato's tags, they might bury the tags, but that doesn't mean that minato can't port to those tags or the general vicinity of them.  in addition to that, Minato can use clones who can distribute more tags or act as tags themselves.



Lawrence777 said:


> Minato maybe able to repel lower end mokuton with rasengans like Naruto was able to. Minato's not stopping Hashirama's higher end senjutsu enhanced  mokutons from destroying his entire vicinity including his tags though. Then there's also the fact Hashirama will outlast just half kyuubi chakra wise.


But all of hashirama's mokutons except for two: mokuhobi and shinsuusenjuu can't even survive the blast radius of a normal bijuudama.  Hashirama cant catch bijuudamas that are teleported to the target, or to the ground, or heck even fired at the ground considering the BM cloak just shrugs off the blast radius.



Lawrence777 said:


> Hashi can't Bansho Tennin rocks out of orbit but he's still fairy-tale power-level. That's just how he's been depicted by the author and he has the feats to back it up.
> 
> This guy beat full kyuubi into a bloody pulp, tore susanoo off it, sealed it, and then turned around and soloed EMS Madara


okay, that's not only just resume hype but false hype as the kyuubi wasn't even bleeding at any point during his fight with hashirama, it was hashirama who was bloodied after tussling with kurama.

Then there's the fact that you are using A>B>C logic that does not apply here because 100% Kurama can't teleport which makes all of hashirama's attempts at binding it irrelevant.  In addition to that Minato's BM is not flesh and blood and if it's based off of the durability of Naruto's BM, it has more than enough defense to take shinsuusenjuu's barrage as just 6 tails were enough to block the more powerful Juubi's laser.

Finally, how do all of these fairy tale abilities of his actually stack up to BM Minato's abilities?  Just listing hype and accomplishments means nothing, I could list a single SM Naruto clone beating the guy who the hachibi's equal, doesn't mean SM Naruto's clone is = hachibi.  I could list Lee slicing Madara in half, doesn't mean lee > madara.


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## Lawrence777 (Sep 7, 2013)

Y





> ou do know that Minato can know the clones by his finger sensing ability, right?


Minato can detect the clones but I don't see how this would help him detect the correct Hashirama.



> How is sensing will help exactly? Like when Mu's sensing ability helped him against Naruto's
> jutsu you mean? You do realize the GAP in speed between them, right?


Hashirama isn't slow at all. 

Sage Sensing
Rashomon summon mid bijuu bomb flight
Mokuton mid Bijuu explosion
Base Hashirama reacts to Susano, redirects it, then hops out of a mountain range.



> LOL, you do know that other than his Buddha every jutsu of his had got destroyed by a TBB, or even
> weaker attacks, right?


We likely haven't seen all his wood variants. Keep in mind base Hashirama's mokuton tanked a pointblank TBB with no visible damage.  If his non senjutsu mokuton is -> TBB that gives you an ideal of the durability of the remainder of his jutsu.



> Nonsense, even Naruto whos FAR better than Hashi at sensing couldn't sense Minato
> when he used FTG.


What lol? Why can't Hashirama sense Minato? Why would Naruto even try to sense Minato.



> he won't, you just make a lot of assumptions and make everything in Hashi's favor. lol
> 
> you do know that FTG tags don't disappear, right?


FTG tags can be destroyed by buddha or gathered by mokuton in one area. Or dealt with by 25 clones.

And bro, everyone knows Hashi is fairy tale power level. The author has literally depicted Hashirama as the bar of power for like the last 30 chapters. 

"Only Hashirama can defeat me"
"Wow, they almost have my chakra level"
Hashirama flexes: other Hokage are awed
 "Madara! The rest of the Hokage together can't stop the 4 juubi bombs! Let me go so I can save them!"

















> By the time he actually senses minato let alone physically reacts to minato's position it'll be to late, he'll take a giant bijuumode rasengan or a bijuudama, rapidfire bijuudama or super bijuudama. minato's not going to teleport away, hide, and try to sneak up on hashirama. If you've watched any of his fights, he teleports to counterattack immediately, bypassing the reactions of his opponents and any kind of defense that they might try to muster. So instead of facing Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu head on, hell teleport behind it and blow it away from there like he did to Ei, like he did to Obito, that's what I mean by not a head on battle.



Hashirama can respond defensively to Minato warping to his back. The first time is dubious but after having knowledge + sensing Hashirama will adapt to it. Tobirama implied teleporting behind Obito would lead to him being killed. A likewise was going to attack Minato when he warped behind him. That's the apparent go-to strategy against Hiraishin users. Preempting their return. Also, how exactly is Minato destroying Shinsuusenjuu?



> carpet bomb with what? Shinsuusenjuu is the only only thing that I can think of that can actually carpet bomb an area anything else is fodderized by a single as none of it can withstand the blast of one. And unless he's using shinsuusenjuu, i don't see how his lower mokutons destroy minato's tags, they might bury the tags, but that doesn't mean that minato can't port to those tags or the general vicinity of them. in addition to that, Minato can use clones who can distribute more tags or act as tags themselves.


Minato can only make 1 other clone I recall. Hashirama can flower tree world the area or shinsuusenjuu smash the area. Hashi's clones can alternatively  collect Minato's tags and either gather them or  doton them underground. Numerically, Hashi's clones will deal with Minato's hiraishin kunai faster than he can pump them out if it comes to that.



> But all of hashirama's mokutons except for two: mokuhobi and shinsuusenjuu can't even survive the blast radius of a normal bijuudama. Hashirama cant catch bijuudamas that are teleported to the target, or to the ground, or heck even fired at the ground considering the BM cloak just shrugs off the blast radius.


I doubt Hashirama has just 1 senjutsu technique. We just saw only the Buddha is all. Hashirama can just respawn any mokuton that are destroyed with his chakra since hes not running out. 



> okay, that's not only just resume hype but false hype as the kyuubi wasn't even bleeding at any point during his fight with hashirama, it was hashirama who was bloodied after tussling with kurama.


I don't think Hashirama would have _any_ difficulty in a 1v1 with the Kyuubi provided Madara wasn't involved. Purely canonically speaking, Hashirama soloes Kyuubi with Mokuton dragon as that was what was said verbatim. 


And if you don't call that buddha laying down the smack down getting beat to a bloody pulp I don't know what is.



> Then there's the fact that you are using A>B>C logic that does not apply here because 100% Kurama can't teleport which makes all of hashirama's attempts at binding it irrelevant. In addition to that Minato's BM is not flesh and blood and if it's based off of the durability of Naruto's BM, it has more than enough defense to take shinsuusenjuu's barrage as just 6 tails were enough to block the more powerful Juubi's laser.


Hashi can punch Kurama in the head and put him to sleep, remember?
Regardless of the teleporting, because of mokuton clones Minato would run out of places eventually. Isn't teleing such a huge target going to slow down Minato also? 
I don't know if incomplete Juubi laser is more powerful than shinsuusenjuu nor where MInato's durability is. If Minato got hit with senjuu I fully expect it to OTK him tbh.


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 7, 2013)

"Only Hirashima can beat me"

Then comes alone INC Obito who thrashes Hirashima in milliseconds


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

> =Lawrence777;48380953]YMinato can detect the clones but I don't see how this would help him detect the correct Hashirama.



and why not? + Minato can make clones as well!


> Hashirama isn't slow at all.
> 
> Sage Sensing
> Rashomon summon mid bijuu bomb flight
> ...



Compared to Minato, yes, he IS slow. 

I don't even know what does your list have to do with anything? 
and Hashi is not even great at sensing! 





> We likely haven't seen all his wood variants. Keep in mind base Hashirama's mokuton tanked a pointblank TBB with no visible damage.  If his non senjutsu mokuton is -> TBB that gives you an ideal of the durability of the remainder of his jutsu.


Well, we are talking about what we have seen, because otherwise, we can say the same thing
about every character! 

Hashi's jutsus were destroyed as I said!
spam Myōjinmon
spam Myōjinmon
spam Myōjinmon

and there is the other jutsu that Naruto destroyed with some ransegans!
only his Buddha who can stand against more than one TBB. 


> What lol? Why can't Hashirama sense Minato? Why would Naruto even try to sense Minato.


obviously because Minato use S/T jutsu and not only speed? 
Naruto already in his mode, thus, his sensing ability is already activated! and he can sense
anyone even if he did not try just like when he sensed the Hokages before they come and
as he sensed all people in the War. 

However, he couldn't do that when Minato used FTG
I'll quote myself



> Sensing want do much against speed.
> look here
> 
> spam Myōjinmon
> ...





> FTG tags can be destroyed by buddha or gathered by mokuton in one area. Or dealt with by 25 clones.


did you even read what I said? They can't be destroyed!
spam Myōjinmon
they never disappear!


> And bro, everyone knows Hashi is fairy tale power level. The author has literally depicted Hashirama as the bar of power for like the last 30 chapters.


No one said he's weak + No one (in the manga at least) said he's the strongest!


> "Only Hashirama can defeat me"
> "Wow, they almost have my chakra level"
> Hashirama flexes: other Hokage are awed
> "Madara! The rest of the Hokage together can't stop the 4 juubi bombs! Let me go so I can save them!"



1- You do know that Madara never fought Minato or prime Hiruzen? 
2- that's only your fansiction, you may want to share it here


because Hashi never said that's nonsense, he said HE (Naruto), and also said the chakra 
HE HAD SHARED
2

- Not sure if serious. The Hokages were surprised, and that's just bullshit!
What do you think about saying Sakura is also stronger than Naruto?  

- Again, pure billshit and fanfiction. 
oh by the way, Hashi is the one who got blown up for your information, and he couldn't even
save himself. 

If only I know why is his fans are so delusional, and even worst they create their own fanfiction and
believe it's reality. 

we can say that
1- It's said Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage. (before Minato with Kurama's chakra)
2- Only Naruto who can surpass Minato
3- there was never a man who could surpass him(Minato).

and so on.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

^1.)  You realize that Hashirama's Mokuton: Mokujin actually caught aTBB and his Mokuton: Houbi tanked one without taking any damage.

2.) Hashirama's terrain-altering Mokuton can't get rid of Hirashin tags, but it can make them inconveniently placed. Like using Mokuton to bury them in the ground.

3.) Character statements aren't absolute truth.

4.) BMS Minato has a better chance, but it still depends on how Hashirama's Mokuton would affect Kurama.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> ^1.)  You realize that Hashirama's Mokuton: Mokujin actually caught aTBB and his Mokuton: Houbi tanked one without taking any damage.
> 
> 2.) Hashirama's terrain-altering Mokuton can't get rid of Hirashin tags, but it can make them inconveniently placed. Like using Mokuton to bury them in the ground.
> 
> ...




1- Yes, but it was destroyed after that because of the explosion! 

2- inconveniently? and since when Minato throwing them to be in a specific place/s? 
he just throw them randomly, just to teleport to them later. 

3- Good, say that to Hashi's fans. 

4- Kurama is inside Minato, only his chakra is out now + if the wood touched it, Minato can
teleport it a way, or teleport himself!


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 7, 2013)

Lawrence777 said:


> Hashirama can respond defensively to Minato warping to his back. The first time is dubious but after having knowledge + sensing Hashirama will adapt to it. Tobirama implied teleporting behind Obito would lead to him being killed. A likewise was going to attack Minato when he warped behind him. That's the apparent go-to strategy against Hiraishin users. Preempting their return. Also, how exactly is Minato destroying Shinsuusenjuu?


Er almost none of what you just typed is even true.  

First off Tobirama isn't protected by a super chakra shield, Juubito is far far more powerful than Hashirama, and we see that he actually has an instant defense that would kill tobirama: chakra arms that can rip apart the hokage's barrier, the same barrier that can withstand a super juubidama.  Does Hashirama have something that he can instantly use with that kind of firepower?  No he doesn't.

And Ei wasn't going to attack Minato when he warped behind him, he was going to try and look at which kunai minato warped to.

And Minato destroys Shinsuusenjuu with a super bijuudama.  Not that he even needs to destroy it as he can just warp the construct away.



Lawrence777 said:


> Minato can only make 1 other clone I recall. Hashirama can flower tree world the area or shinsuusenjuu smash the area. Hashi's clones can alternatively  collect Minato's tags and either gather them or  doton them underground. Numerically, Hashi's clones will deal with Minato's hiraishin kunai faster than he can pump them out if it comes to that.


I already explained how flower tree world doesn't do anything as the tags are just buried, not destroyed, and hashirama's clones in no way deal with hirashin kunai as the moment they pick one up, they get destroyed by minato's clone when he warps to the kunai.



Lawrence777 said:


> I doubt Hashirama has just 1 senjutsu technique. We just saw only the Buddha is all. Hashirama can just respawn any mokuton that are destroyed with his chakra since hes not running out.


Nope, hashirama does not get fanmade abilities just because you think he should have them.  Hiruzen supposedly knows all of konoha's techs and kakashi supposedly knows 1,000 doesn't mean that we can just make up abilities for them to use.  And since he can only use one mokuton buddah, then we know that whatever else he can use is going to be far weaker than the construct.  In addition to that, after buddah, Madara lost kurama, thus he only had PS to fight hashirama which would mean hashirama would have logically only used mokujin from that point on considering that's what seems to be the equal of PS in manga canon.




Lawrence777 said:


> I don't think Hashirama would have _any_ difficulty in a 1v1 with the Kyuubi provided Madara wasn't involved. Purely canonically speaking, Hashirama soloes Kyuubi with Mokuton dragon as that was what was said verbatim.


Okay, but that has nothing to do with what you typed: that hashirama beat the kyuubi to a bloody pulp after stripping susanoo from it.  But if you want to argue canon, it's canon that hashirama was bleeding profusely before sealing the kyuubi.



Lawrence777 said:


> And if you don't call that buddha laying down the smack down getting beat to a bloody pulp I don't know what is.


The buddah layed the smackdown to PS, Kurama didn't shed a single drop of blood, yet in order to hype hashirama you stated that Kurama was beaten to a bloody pulp in addition to PS getting destroyed.  Now how in the heck is kurama not even bleeding = getting beat to a bloody pulp?



Lawrence777 said:


> Hashi can punch Kurama in the head and put him to sleep, remember?
> Regardless of the teleporting, because of mokuton clones Minato would run out of places eventually. Isn't teleing such a huge target going to slow down Minato also?


Considering Minato can just create a tag anywhere he wants, and mokuton clones are not sensors in addition to guys like juubito not even knowing that they are tagged, no, the clones are not going to be able to do anything about his tags.  

It's not like it would even come to that though since a teleported Super bijuudama just messes Hashirama up, teleporting shinsuusenjuu messes hashirama up.



Lawrence777 said:


> I don't know if incomplete Juubi laser is more powerful than shinsuusenjuu nor where MInato's durability is.* If Minato got hit with senjuu I fully expect it to OTK him tbh.*


BM Naruto blocked the incomplete juubi's laser with just his tails, that's a laser that overpowered 9 bijuudamas without even losing momentum, if you want to argue that BM minato is less durable than BM Naruto then feel free to do so.  

Also, in order for your stance to be true, the juubi's laser MUST be more powerful than shinsuusenjuu's barrage since BM Naruto blocked the laser with his tails, yet you are saying a barrage is going to defeat minato.


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## Kai (Sep 7, 2013)

BM + Hiraishin forces Hashirama into Sage Mode, but that's the only factor that's changed.

BM Minato lacks the offensive feats to break down Shinsuusenju completely in proportion to Minato and Hashi's base arsenals before.

Time ticks on Bijuu Mode's sync regardless how many times Hiraishin is used. Eventually Minato reverts to KCM or base and from there Hashirama absolutely stomps.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Kai said:


> BM + Hiraishin forces Hashirama into Sage Mode, but that's the only factor that's changed.
> 
> 
> > BM Minato lacks the offensive feats to break down Shinsuusenju completely in proportion to Minato and Hashi's base arsenals before.
> ...



he does not have to destroy it, all he needs is to warp it away. 

and Hashi is also going to be in base + Minato with Kurama has more chakra than Hashi!

and no, he won't stomp anyone, he does not even have a jutsu to hit Minato with in the first place
and if Minato touched him even once, Hashi won't last even a second!


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## SesshomaruX2 (Sep 7, 2013)

I'd still go with Hashi on this one. Hashi can wait until the time limit for BM is up and then he could deal with base/KCM Minato.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1- Yes, but it was destroyed after that because of the explosion!
> 
> 2- inconveniently? and since when Minato throwing them to be in a specific place/s?
> he just throw them randomly, just to teleport to them later.
> ...



1.) The Mokujin can catch it with no damage and pushed it ack, but he doesn't need to. He could just get rid of it. The Houbi was completely unscathed by the TBB.

2.) Inconveniantly, as in: if the tag is underground, Minato teleports into already filled space. Not very convenient.

3.) You were referring to Hiruzen-hype, Naruto's potential, and and Minato's hype. They are much less trustworthy than Hashirama comparing himself to another person in the midst of battle. It's not fully trustworthy either, but it has more merit than someone hyping another person.

4.) Yamato could subdue Kurama while he was in Naruto. Hashirama could do the same, but at a much higher level.


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## Ƶero (Sep 7, 2013)

Minato only needs to touch him once which shouldnt be hard since he's faster and thats gg.

FTG + this and thats Hashirama done.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

^ Hashirama's attack and reaction speed is higher than non-Hiraishin Minato. He could grapple with Minato as soon as he gets near. Either with his hands as Minato tags him or with Mokuton. With Mokuton, he could drain Kurama chakra.

Of course, Minato is more likely to win. But Hashirama might be able to drain Kurama's chakra.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> 1.) The Mokujin can catch it with no damage and pushed it ack, but he doesn't need to. He could just get rid of it. The Houbi was completely unscathed by the TBB.
> 
> 2.) Inconveniantly, as in: if the tag is underground, Minato teleports into already filled space. Not very convenient.
> 
> ...



- again, I'm talking about what happened, we can say Minato does not need to fire it off in front
of him as well, he can teleport behind him and then blow them up! There is more the a scenario
but what I'm saying is the TBB is enough to destroy Hashi's jutsus other than the Buddha. 

- and what will make them under the ground? Even though Hashi never used such a thing
but regardless, Minato can still use the tags by his hands, or use clones as tags since they
do have his chakra!

- I don't see how is that makes any sense honestly. 

- That's Naruto was not a perfect jin as he is now. There is a different. 
Just like itachi putted Naruto under his Genjutsu before, that does not mean he can do the
same now! OR when sasuke suppressed Kurama's chakra before!


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> ^ H
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, prove that in bold please.


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## Ƶero (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> ^ *Hashirama's attack and reaction speed is higher than non-Hiraishin Minato*. He could grapple with Minato as soon as he gets near. Either with his hands as Minato tags him or with Mokuton. With Mokuton, he could drain Kurama chakra.
> 
> Of course, Minato is more likely to win. But Hashirama might be able to drain Kurama's chakra.



Proof?

Minato is the fastest hokage in base as shown in canon. You do realise a BM boost amplifies that many times further. It made Naruto as fast as regular Minato, now imagine what that does for Minato.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

[GVIDEO][/GVIDEO]





Elia said:


> - again, I'm talking about what happened, we can say Minato does not need to fire it off in front
> of him as well, he can teleport behind him and then blow them up! There is more the a scenario
> but what I'm saying is the TBB is enough to destroy Hashi's jutsus other than the Buddha.
> 
> ...



1.) I agree. There are more scenarios, but Houbi is also capable of tanking a TBB. That is what I am saying. He doesn't require Shinsuusenju.

2.) If Hashirama uses Mokuton to rupture whatever it is on, he can flip it over and drive it into the ground.

3.) Your examples were an outside source saying someone is at certain power. They don't know that persons exact power. Hashirama is speaking about himself, no one else is, and he knows his own power better. They are also debatable statements, but they hold more merit.

4.) Perhaps. IDK, so I'll concede on that.

On your newer post: Minato's non-Hiraishin movement speed is not higher than Hashirama's reaction/attack speed. It's like Mach 140.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

Minato has the fastest movement speed, yes. I agree. Hashirama's reaction and attack speed is like Mach 140, however.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> [GVIDEO][/GVIDEO]
> 
> 1.) I agree. There are more scenarios, but Houbi is also capable of tanking a TBB. That is what I am saying. He doesn't require Shinsuusenju.
> 
> ...



1- Well, I don't deny that.
2- I don't recall Hashi, or IC Hashi at least doing any such thing!
3- A fought Minato a lot of times, and Kakashi is Minato's students they do know him well! 
but I do agree with what you said in general. 

5- it is a lot higher, re-watch when the Hokages arrived, Minato arrived before him and teleported
the TBB, and then putted the tags around the Juubi, then had a little chat with Naruto. after ALL
of that Hashi arrived. the Gap is huge, that was even base Minato!


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

Elia said:


> 1- Well, I don't deny that.
> 2- I don't recall Hashi, or IC Hashi at least doing any such thing!
> 3- A fought Minato a lot of times, and Kakashi is Minato's students they do know him well!
> but I do agree with what you said in general.
> ...



1.) Edo-Hashirama from Pt. 1 grappled Hiruzen at the level of his ankles and wrists. It's not a stretch to say that his Mokuton could grapple the earth.

2.) You're talking about movement speed. Hashirama's *reaction/attack* speed is higher than any non-Hiraishin movement speed. If Minato gets too close and doesn't have any Hiraishin tags out anywhere else, Hashirama can attack him before he moves away.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2013)

Kai said:


> BM + Hiraishin forces Hashirama into Sage Mode, but that's the only factor that's changed.
> 
> BM Minato lacks the offensive feats to break down Shinsuusenju completely in proportion to Minato and Hashi's base arsenals before.
> 
> Time ticks on Bijuu Mode's sync regardless how many times Hiraishin is used. Eventually Minato reverts to KCM or base and from there Hashirama absolutely stomps.


What's stopping BM Minato from just warping Shinsusenju away while in Biju Mode? Or destroying it with a super Bijudama? Hashirama can't touch him in either case due to Minato's absolute speed advantage.



Darkmaiar said:


> 2.) You're talking about movement speed. Hashirama's *reaction/attack* speed is higher than any non-Hiraishin movement speed. If Minato gets too close and doesn't have any Hiraishin tags out anywhere else, Hashirama can attack him before he moves away.


Minato's reactions and attack speed should be amped by Biju Mode, but he's still has them better than Hashirama's without. Minato is faster than someone who can react to and avoid Amaterasu, which Hashirama has yet to show an equal reaction to.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

^ Movement VS Reaction/Attack speed. Without a Hiraishin, Minato wouldn't be able to move away before getting attacked. Hashirama has Mach 140 reactions/attacks.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> ^ Movement VS Reaction/Attack speed. Without a Hiraishin, Minato wouldn't be able to move away before getting attacked. Hashirama has Mach 140 reactions/attacks.


Minato has the same Mach 140 reaction/attack. He could react to the Bijudama from not only Kurama, but from the Jyubi as well (which is even faster). He could react to A, whose reflexes and movement speed are greater than Amaterasu.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

He may be able to react, but he doesn't have the movement speed to get out of the way.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> He may be able to react, but he doesn't have the movement speed to get out of the way.


...you do realize Minato's Shunshin has been confused with the Hiraishin several times in the manga? Minato's movement speed with his Shunshin is great enough to cover _all_ of Konoha, appear right above Kurama, and summon Gamabunta for Kuchiyoise: Toad Food Court Destroyer before Kurama could even react or even launch his Bijudama.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

Okay, I understand. The only reason I brought it up is because someone said that Minato could go in, tag Hashirama, and get away with no trouble. Hashirama can react to and attack  Minato  in that same amount of time.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> Okay, I understand. The only reason I brought it up is because someone said that Minato could go in, tag Hashirama, and get away with no trouble. Hashirama can react to and attack  Minato  in that same amount of time.


Hashirama's reactions and speed are still inferior to Minato's though. Hashirama, as fast as he is, was never hyped up to be fast in the manga while Minato has had the rank of the fastest shinobi to ever live until Juubito came around. Even Tobirama is faster than Hashirama in reaction and movement speed (as shown when Hashirama's clone and Tobirama were ripped apart: Tobirama still could place the Goju Kibafuda tags on him and tag him with his Hiraishin seal without realizing it) and Tobirama said Minato is faster than he is.


----------



## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

Absolutely, but he wouldn't be able to move out of a large scale Mokuton at that range. A large Mokuton at Mach 140 would get to him before he moves regardless of whether or not he can react to it. I don't even think that's how the battle would go, but if Minato did that, Hashirama could attack him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> Absolutely, but he wouldn't be able to move out of a large scale Mokuton at that range. A large Mokuton at Mach 140 would get to him before he moves regardless of whether or not he can react to it. I don't even think that's how the battle would go, but if Minato did that, Hashirama could attack him.


That still would be slow motion compared to Minato though. Mokujin which caught the Bijudama didn't even have to be Mach 140: it was acting as a catcher's mit for the Bijudama instead of actively reaching out to grasp it.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Sep 7, 2013)

The idea that a fight between top tiers - never mind one of them being the God of Shinobi who has been depicted as being better than pretty much everybody bar a select few - would end in a speed-blitz is a ludicrous notion. Even more so if you consider the fact that Hashirama has access to a regeneration ability apparently on par with Tsunade's byakugō. Never mind the fact that Hashirama probably has the reaction and movement speed to avoid a speed-blitz anyway, but the very notion of one would suggest Minato basically takes him out in one blow before he can react or defend himself. Hashirama is a Senju (a clan which has been portrayed as having amazing stamina, life-force and endurance) with regeneration abilities, and Minato's offense leave something to be desired, considering his current top tier status. I don't think it's entirely far-fetched that Minato could win here, but it's certainly not with ease, or with a speed-blitz.


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## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That still would be slow motion compared to Minato though. Mokujin which caught the Bijudama didn't even have to be Mach 140: it was acting as a catcher's mit for the Bijudama instead of actively reaching out to grasp it.



Hashirama clasped his hand and made a giant hand come out of the branch, after the TBB was shot.

I gotta go now. Might argue with you later.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 7, 2013)

> Besides the hobi technique and the true several thousand hands i do not see why a decent TBB would not destroy any of hashirama's jutsu. Wood dragon gets destroyed by a TBB passing through it, wood golem and the forest gets erased after the explosion.



Does anyone else remember 100% Kyuubi firing a bijuudama at Hashirama, and Hashi instantly making a giant statue to catch it and slam it back in the Kyuubi's face?

In base?  Anybody?



ueharakk said:


> but dude, minato's entire fighting style means it's not going to be a head on battle...



Minato's going to port around the field.

This field.

Or this one.

Or this one time 1000x.

He attacks the entire battlefield at once, and then he can make any part of that battlefield attack.  On top of that, we know he's a sensor, so he can just know where in his giant forest Minato is and make it attack him and every one of his seals and kunai.

People might think it sounds crazy that Hashirama can attack and defend and control everywhere at once, but the databook repeatedly talks about how Mokuton is the perfect element that uses simultaneous offence and defence, and goes on and on about how perfect it is, and it's being used by the god of shinobi whose power and ability leave the entire shinobi alliance in shock.  They're seeing Minato's fight too, but that's not what they're commenting on.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> The idea that a fight between top tiers - never mind one of them being the God of Shinobi who has been depicted as being better than pretty much everybody bar a select few - would end in a speed-blitz is a ludicrous notion.* Even more so if you consider the fact that Hashirama has access to a regeneration ability apparently on par with Tsunade's byakugō.* Never mind the fact that *Hashirama probably has the reaction and movement speed to avoid a speed-blitz anyway,* but the very notion of one would suggest Minato basically takes him out in one blow before he can react or defend himself. Hashirama is a Senju (a clan which has been portrayed as having amazing stamina, life-force and endurance) with regeneration abilities, and Minato's offense leave something to be desired, considering his current top tier status. I don't think it's entirely far-fetched that Minato could win here, but it's certainly not with ease, or with a speed-blitz.



How the heck is that going to be enough for something like this?
this one
Look how tiny is obito there. 

and that's "probably" based on what? He has never shown such thing!

and his fans want us to believe that he won't be even touched for one time? 
Not very likely if you asked me.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Sep 7, 2013)

Elia said:


> How the heck is that going to be enough for something like this?
> this one
> Look how tiny is obito there.
> 
> ...



Do you think Minato can use that jutsu on his own? It's very obvious that the vast majority of that rasengan's power came from Naruto, not him. Also, Hashirama _has_ shown reaction and speed feats. Did you not read his flashback battle with Madara? He was outrunning the Kyūbi's bijū dama in base and pretty much kept up with everything Madara threw at him.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> Do you think Minato can use that jutsu on his own? It's very obvious that the vast majority of that rasengan's power came from Naruto, not him. Also, Hashirama _has_ shown reaction and speed feats. Did you not read his flashback battle with Madara? He was outrunning the Kyūbi's bijū dama in base and pretty much kept up with everything Madara threw at him.



this one


and who said the TBB is fast in the first place? 
as a matter of fact we have obito's statement about it being slow. We can only say
it's just as fast as the FRS, and that's it. We saw Nagato's Paths dodge it with no 
problem!


----------



## Kai (Sep 7, 2013)

Well AS, Minato created the Rasengan and told his son to add senjutsu to the one he made. You can see Naruto didn't play a part in making it.



Regardless, it should not be able reach Hashirama atop Shinsuusenju nor release a power output greater than several bijuudama magatamas launched by 100% Kurama and Perfect Susano'o combined.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Sep 7, 2013)

Elia said:


> this one



I'm not sure what this is actually meant to prove. Minato just makes a big rasengan (something he couldn't have done before without syncing up with Naruto and his Kyūbi's chakra), and Tobirama tells Naruto to add senjutsu to it, so obviously it's not just Minato's jutsu alone. What I meant was that the damage it did to Obito (or rather, the finished product) was not directly a result of Minato's power alone. 



> and who said the TBB is fast in the first place?



What exactly does TBB stand for?



> as a matter of fact we have obito's statement about it being slow. We can only say
> it's just as fast as the FRS, and that's it. We saw Nagato's Paths dodge it with no
> problem!



Not quite. Rasenshuriken was difficult for the Path's to dodge, and each time it was used, it required precise maneuvering to evade. The first time, Human Realm himself had to pull another Path out of the way and got vaporized for it, and the second time Deva Realm had to use shinra tensei to disperse it, before dodging the second one with acrobatics. I'm still not sure what TBB is, though.


----------



## Ashi (Sep 7, 2013)

TBB means tailed beast bomb


----------



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

> =Signa Inferemus;48384329]I'm not sure what this is actually meant to prove. Minato just makes a big rasengan (something he couldn't have done before without syncing up with Naruto and his Kyūbi's chakra), and Tobirama tells Naruto to add senjutsu to it, so obviously it's not just Minato's jutsu alone. What I meant was that the damage it did to Obito (or rather, the finished product) was not directly a result of Minato's power alone.



1- It's prove that Minato can make the huge rasengan + Minato is using the half of Kurama
that sealed inside him, not Naruto's chakra or his Kurama. 

2- It's Minato who told Naruto to add the senjutsu, and not Tobirama, 

3- Yes, I agree that damage was not because of Minato alone, though the Rasengan that he
did alone at first in that link is more than enough actuall. 





> What exactly does TBB stand for?



Tailed Beast Ball


> Not quite. Rasenshuriken was difficult for the Path's to dodge, and each time it was used, it required precise maneuvering to evade. The first time, Human Realm himself had to pull another Path out of the way and got vaporized for it, and the second time Deva Realm had to use shinra tensei to disperse it, before dodging the second one with acrobatics. I'm still not sure what TBB is, though.



but, that paths never known for there speed though! And Deva as you said used Shinra tensei
against one, but he dodge the other. So, it does not really need super speed for that!


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Sep 7, 2013)

Shodai can't even keep up with INC Obito, better yet BM Minato


----------



## Ashi (Sep 7, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Shodai can't even keep up with INC Obito, better yet BM Minato



How the hell is obito slow? Him blitzing 2 hokages is a speed feat on his part not to mention he had the juubi's power and the juubi tagged bm naruto


----------



## Rocky (Sep 7, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He attacks the entire battlefield at once, and then he can make any part of that battlefield attack.  On top of that, we know he's a sensor, so he can just know where in his giant forest Minato is and make it attack him and every one of his seals and kunai.



Poking Minato's Nine-Tails avatar with standard wood manipulation isn't going to accomplish anything. If the defensive properties of the cloak are similar to Naruto's, then the only way Hashirama can damage or restrain full Bijuu Mode Minato is through the focused attacks of the Mokuryū and Mokujin. Sorry to say my friend, but the Ten-Tails's Bijuu Lazer-Bomb is more potent than most of what Hashirama can offer. 

Hiraishin is merely a tool for Minato to utilize when he wants to play it safe. It can be used to effectively avoid Shodai's Mokuton beasts, and to position Minato in Hashirama's blindspots. He isn't exactly _reliant _upon it any longer, but seeing as how he was able to spread Kunai around the gargantuan Juubi before anyone took notice, I also don't see Hashirama completely shutting down the option just because he has large AoE.

Hiraishin will be necessary to remove the Shinsuusenju from the field, however. It isn't like Shinsuusenju is to agile and quick to avoid being warped away just as the Jubbi's Bijuudama.

It will always continue to amuse me when people claim that Shinsuusenju is too overwhelming for Minato when the latter's dealt with supposed continent busters from the God-Tier Juubi....without the aid of Kurama's Chakra. Basically, if Minato could stop the Juubi's attacks, he can stop Hashirama's.



> People might think it sounds crazy that Hashirama can attack and defend and control everywhere at once, but the databook repeatedly talks about how Mokuton is the perfect element that uses simultaneous offence and defence, and goes on and on about how perfect it is, and it's being used by the god of shinobi whose power and ability leave the entire shinobi alliance in shock.



Hashirama wouldn't get the chance to "control everywhere at once" because most of his focus would be dedicated towards stopping an intelligent Nine-Tails that can teleport from mauling him. We saw clearly how irrelevant Hashirama's battlefield control against Madara was. It will be similar here. 

Hashirama has ways to deal with the firepower of the Kyuubi, but not necessarily when it's used in combination with Space and Time mastery. Think about it:

Hasihirama sprouts a forest in an attempt to crush Minato. Minato turns into the Kyuubi and runs through the standard Mokuton with his super strength. In order to combat the physical might of the Nine-Tailed avatar, Hashirama brings forth the Human & Dragon creatures. The Dragon goes in to hold Minato down, but Yondaime blasts it to pieces with Bijuudama. The Human catches the ball of course, and attempts to smash it back in Minato's face. Unexpectedly, Hashirama's Human disappears, having been relocated to sea by Hiraishin (or Jikūkan Kekkai, whichever countered the Juubi's attack). As he falls from the sky, Hashirama looks up to see a mansion sized Rasengan descending upon him. It _is_ in Minato's nature to capitalize on the surprise of his opponents. 

Hashirama may or may not be able to defend himself in time, but my point is that this a very close match. Hashirama doesn't win "just because." Without to the ability to suppress, I don't like Hashirama's chances more than a Kurama avatar that can intelligently manipulate space & time on the scale of the Juubi. 



> They're seeing Minato's fight too, but that's not what they're commenting on.



They're also seeing Obito fight, right?


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 7, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Does anyone else remember 100% Kyuubi firing a bijuudama at Hashirama, and Hashi instantly making a giant statue to catch it and slam it back in the Kyuubi's face?
> 
> In base?  Anybody?


100% Kurama firing a bijuudama is completely irrelevant as the power of bijuudamas are determined by the size of the dama and their blast radius.

does anybody remember what happened to Hashirama's most powerful base mokutons when that normal bijuudama went off?  

Or that BM Naruto can fire off bijuudamas like a machinegun?  Anybody?




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato's going to port around the field.
> 
> This field.
> 
> ...



Yet that entire field is going to be nothing after just ONE bijuudama goes off as a normal bijuudama blows up mokuryu, mokujin and a field of much larger mokutons than what you've posted and normal bijuudamas have an AoE larger than *the forest bee cleared with his whirlwind.*



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He attacks the entire battlefield at once, and then he can make any part of that battlefield attack.  On top of that, we know he's a sensor, so he can just know where in his giant forest Minato is and make it attack him and every one of his seals and kunai.


It doesn't matter if he can do that as by the time he senses where minato is and actually tries to do a jutsu to attack minato, he's going to be taking a bijuudama, bijuudama barrage, super bijuudama, etc.  It gets worse as Minato himself doesn't even have to warp to the tag in order to attack from that position due to his ability to warp bijuudamas to his tags.

You make it seem like minato is going to teleport somewhere, hide and try to sneak up on hashirama to attack him.  That's not in anyway what minato does, he teleports to instantly counterattack before his opponents can do anything.  Like he did with obito, with ei, with obito again.  And hashirama being a sensor does not allow him to know the positions of minato's tags, only the positon of minato himself.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> People might think it sounds crazy that Hashirama can attack and defend and control everywhere at once, but the databook repeatedly talks about how Mokuton is the perfect element that uses simultaneous offence and defence, and goes on and on about how perfect it is, and it's being used by the god of shinobi whose power and ability leave the entire shinobi alliance in shock.  They're seeing Minato's fight too, but that's not what they're commenting on.


REally?  Attack and defense at the same time is accomplished by so many other things in the manga.  And this is the battledome if you want to go by pure portrayal while turning a blind eye to feats and abilities of characters, you have to say "I'm evaluating this via pure portrayal".  And even then you wouldn't have a really good case as there are tons of times where portrayal fails in the manga, and BM Minato has never been taken into account whenever hashirama was spoken of.


----------



## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

^ Mokuton: Houbi took a Bijuudama with no damage. So he can defend himself in base. Thus, he can keep making high-level Mokutons.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> ^ Mokuton: Houbi took a Bijuudama with no damage. So he can defend himself in base. Thus, he can keep making high-level Mokutons.



took the blast radius of a bijuudama, which is far weaker than taking a direct hit from one like bee did.


And he's not going to have any time to make mokuton hobi if minato just warps a bijuudama, bijuudama barrage, super bijuudama, or a giant rasengan right on or behind hashirama with his S/T.


----------



## Darkmaiar (Sep 7, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> took the blast radius of a bijuudama, which is far weaker than taking a direct hit from one like bee did.
> 
> 
> And he's not going to have any time to make mokuton hobi if minato just warps a bijuudama, bijuudama barrage, super bijuudama, or a giant rasengan right on or behind hashirama with his S/T.



He was within a hundred feet of the central explosion. Still pretty impressive.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 7, 2013)

Darkmaiar said:


> He was within a hundred feet of the central explosion. Still pretty impressive.



Yep I agree.


----------



## αce (Sep 7, 2013)

Just thought I'd point out that any argument solely revolving around hiraishin should be discredited, since it's already confirmed that Tobirama isn't even in the same ballpark as Hashirama. Yes, Minato's Hiraishin is superior - but not to the point where it would bridge a gap that large.


I'm still sure that Hashirama takes this. Minato isn't blitzing Hashirama at 50 meters. Clones would be the downfall of Minato since he would never be able to differentiate between them while also facing sleeping pollen AND complete blindness. Not to mention that navigating between Hiraishin seals while trying to avoid falling asleep and having a lack of vision is near impossible.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 7, 2013)

αce said:


> Just thought I'd point out that any argument solely revolving around hiraishin should be discredited, since it's already confirmed that Tobirama isn't even in the same ballpark as Hashirama. Yes, Minato's Hiraishin is superior - but not to the point where it would bridge a gap that large.
> 
> 
> I'm still sure that Hashirama takes this. Minato isn't blitzing Hashirama at 50 meters. Clones would be the downfall of Minato since he would never be able to differentiate between them while also facing sleeping pollen AND complete blindness. Not to mention that navigating between Hiraishin seals while trying to avoid falling asleep and having a lack of vision is near impossible.



-you said it yourself, Minato is batter than Tobirama, and also has the advantage because of the
Kunais. In top of that there is the S/T barrier. 

- Minato blitzed Kurama from the end of the Village. We already know that BASE Minato is
MUCH faster than Hashi, let alone BM Minato. 

Minato can use clones himself. 
and we know that Hashi's clones are fodder's level. On the other hand Minato's clone
took a direct hit from Obito and it did not disappeared. 

Minato can blow those flowers up via TBB, or he can teleport them away. 

Minato surpassed Hashi, he's stronger than him.


----------



## Ƶero (Sep 7, 2013)

αce said:


> Just thought I'd point out that any argument solely revolving around hiraishin should be discredited, since it's already confirmed that Tobirama isn't even in the same ballpark as Hashirama. Yes, Minato's Hiraishin is superior - but not to the point where it would bridge a gap that large.
> 
> 
> I'm still sure that Hashirama takes this. Minato isn't blitzing Hashirama at 50 meters. Clones would be the downfall of Minato since he would never be able to differentiate between them while also facing sleeping pollen AND complete blindness. Not to mention that navigating between Hiraishin seals while trying to avoid falling asleep and having a lack of vision is near impossible.



Minato's Hiraishin is far better than Tobiramas mainly because he has faster reflexes and uses kunais, having BM gives Hiraishin a whole new level of hax since he now has immense fire power and stamina. Warping BM Rasengan or TBB would kill Hashirama. Minato is confirmed faster so Hashirama isn't dodging it.

Pollen won't work on Minato, he has the kyuubi cloak to protect him just like Susano'o protects its user. If it didnt work on the Gokage it is never working on Minato. Bringer of darkness doesnt work either, Minato is a perfect Jin now, Genjutsu is nullified. TBB can destroy flower world.

This isnt even taking into account Clone spam, Chakra roar etc


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 7, 2013)

αce said:


> Just thought I'd point out that any argument solely revolving around hiraishin should be discredited, since it's already confirmed that Tobirama isn't even in the same ballpark as Hashirama. Yes, Minato's Hiraishin is superior - but not to the point where it would bridge a gap that large.
> 
> 
> I'm still sure that Hashirama takes this. Minato isn't blitzing Hashirama at 50 meters. Clones would be the downfall of Minato since he would never be able to differentiate between them while also facing sleeping pollen AND *complete blindness*. Not to mention that navigating between Hiraishin seals while trying to avoid falling asleep and having a lack of vision is near impossible.



Through bringer of darkness? Kurama will break him out since they have a good relationship. 

If the cone variant of jinton can destroy flower tree world then a bijuudama can as well which kurama can supply. Clones would not survive such a onslaught.

Hashi will need true several thousand hands and since minato can warp it hashi's victory is not guaranteed.


----------



## Kai (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:
			
		

> It will always continue to amuse me when people claim that Shinsuusenju is too overwhelming for Minato when the latter's dealt with supposed continent busters from the God-Tier Juubi....without the aid of Kurama's Chakra. Basically, if Minato could stop the Juubi's attacks, he can stop Hashirama's.


?

Hashirama tamed the second to final stage of the Juubi with his Senpo: Myoujinmon gates.

Stopping the Juubi's attacks, while commendable, doesn't even come close in translating to beating Hashirama and Shinsuusenju. Basically, stopping the Juubi's bijuudama doesn't make Minato any less helpless against the Juubi's power.

Not necessarily credible to be used against (the handful of) characters less powerful than Juubi who are more powerful than Minato.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> Hashirama tamed the second to final stage of the Juubi with his Senpo: Myoujinmon gates.



No he didn't. It could still fire off Bijuudama, and one Bijuudama from that thing kills Hashirama 50 times over.



> Stopping the Juubi's attacks, while commendable, doesn't even come close in translating to beating Hashirama and Shinsuusenju.



It translates into being able to defend against Shinsuusenju, which is less a threat than that Bijuudama was. I went over how he could possibly beat Hashirama.



> Basically, stopping the Juubi's bijuudama doesn't make Minato any less helpless against the Juubi's power.



This doesn't make sense. Minato obviously isn't helpless against the Juubi's power (Bijuudama) if he's able to defend against it.


----------



## Kai (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> No he didn't. It could still fire off Bijuudama, and one Bijuudama from that thing kills Hashirama 50 times over.


In comparison... the entity of the Juubi is far more dangerous than its bijuudama.

Handling the Juubi's bijuudama doesn't put Minato on that level. He allowed the Alliance to live long enough to see what comes next. I'm not even trying to downplay Minato's feat there.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> It translates into being able to defend against Shinsuusenju, which is less a threat than that Bijuudama was. I went over how he could possibly beat Hashirama.


That doesn't sound feasible in the limited amount of time he has in BM, a new form where his sync with Kurama wouldn't be perfect just like Naruto and Yang Kurama's when they first merged chakras.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> This doesn't make sense. Minato obviously isn't helpless against the Juubi's power (Bijuudama) if he's able to defend against it.


The threat level of the Juubi over Minato remains constant even if he's able to defend against its bijuudama. There's no reason to credit Minato's actions that are falsely interpreted to be on 'Juubi level' over outright defeating Hashirama and Shinsuusenju with that logic alone.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> In comparison... the entity of the Juubi is far more dangerous than its bijuudama.
> 
> Handling the Juubi's bijuudama doesn't put Minato on that level. He allowed the Alliance to live long enough to see what comes next. I'm not even trying to downplay Minato's feat there.



You're misunderstanding my point. I don't believe Minato is literally on the level of the Ten-Tails.

_However_, he can defend against it's most powerful attacks, so I don't see why he would fail to defend against Hashirama's. Hashirama's strongest attacks are inferior to the Juubi's, in both power and scale. 

And by the way, no, the Juubi is not more dangerous than it's Bijuudama. So far, that's the only thing that makes it so dangerous. A B-52 carrying a Nuke isn't more dangerous than a nuke. The Nuke is what causes the danger.



> That doesn't sound feasible in the limited amount of time he has in BM, a new form where his sync with Kurama wouldn't be perfect just like Naruto and Yang Kurama's when they first merged chakras.



I don't think time is going to bother Minato. Considering he mastered the Kyuubi in like an hour while it took Naruto 16 years....I mean...



> The threat level of the Juubi over Minato remains constant even if he's able to defend against its bijuudama. There's no reason to credit Minato's actions that are falsely interpreted to be on 'Juubi level' over outright defeating Hashirama and Shinsuusenju with that logic alone.



Did you even read my post? I never stated that Hashirama would definitely fall to Minato. I said that Minato could remove the Shinsuusenju from the battlefield just as he did the Bijuudama.

What I find funny is that people believe Minato can do nothing to defend against Shinsuusenju, when he's defended against the Juubi. People are actually trying to use portrayal arguments to support Shodai. The Statue is no less vulnerable to Hiraishin than Bijuudama, and the Juubi's attack was the more impressive of the two.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I don't think time is going to bother Minato. Considering he mastered the Kyuubi in like an hour while it took Naruto 16 years....I mean...



Minato was practicing while sealed inside the Reaper because he had nothing better to do.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Minato was practicing while sealed inside the Reaper because he had nothing better to do.


I thought it was clear Minato was able to master Yin Kurama due to Yin Kurama witnessing what Naruto did.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

When did Yin Kurama witness that?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> When did Yin Kurama witness that?


Probably sensed it from when he and Minato first came back, then when he came to talk with Minato for the first time, then when they joined together.


----------



## Misaki Yata (Sep 8, 2013)

*Minato can warp the buddah statue and create bunshin to blitz over to Hashi tag him then he slashes his neck.
All of Hashirama's summons are useless cuz Minato can warp it to a volcano.*


----------



## Ƶero (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Minato was practicing while sealed inside the Reaper because he had nothing better to do.



Not possible. If he met Yin Kurama inside the death reaper then he also would have met the other Hokages but The first and second didn't know who he was meaning they have no memory of ever being in the death reaper.The most likely explanation is that he did it while Hashirama was giving his speech to Sasuke.


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 8, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> If he met Yin Kurama inside the death reaper then he also would have met the other Hokages but The first and second didn't know who he was meaning they have no memory of ever being in the death reaper.



But the jutsu is supposed to lock both souls into an eternal struggle. Minato would have been battling the fox similar to how Naruto battled it.

Hashirama and Tobirama were sealed _on a separate occassion by Hiruzen_ and would have been locked in combat with him, so there was no reason for them to know Minato.


----------



## Ƶero (Sep 8, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> But the jutsu is supposed to lock both souls into an eternal struggle. Minato would have been battling the fox similar to how Naruto battled it.
> 
> Hashirama and Tobirama were sealed _on a separate occassion by Hiruzen_ and would have been locked in combat with him, so there was no reason for them to know Minato.



Then how come Hashirama thought Hiruzen was sealed with Minato? Clearly he doesnt know he's been fighting Hiruzen and has no memory of it.

this

Only logical explanation is that none of them remember what happens in the death reaper so even if Minato fought Yin Kyuubi he has no memory of it.


----------



## copydog123 (Sep 8, 2013)

Funny how hashi needs to be nerfed and minato needs to be beefed up with *borrowed power* to even stand a chance 


Still hashi stomps. In the fight with madara, he simply pulverized *full kyubi + PS* before using sealing jutsus I suppose.  
And full kyubi is a lot more than what minato has.

just spread the entire area with pollen jutsu and bye bye minato.


----------



## Kai (Sep 8, 2013)

Rocky said:


> You're misunderstanding my point. I don't believe Minato is literally on the level of the Ten-Tails.
> 
> _However_, he can defend against it's most powerful attacks, so I don't see why he would fail to defend against Hashirama's. Hashirama's strongest attacks are inferior to the Juubi's, in both power and scale.


Isn't Shinsuusenju larger in scale than the bijuudama Minato warped?

There's no reason to think Minato can't defend against Shinsuusenju and survive just as he managed to survive against Juubi's bijuudama. On the flipside, I fail to see why warping away Shinsuusenju would cause an immediate defeat for Hashirama. Who knows if he can or can't reform the structure like Madara and Susano'o?



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> And by the way, no, the Juubi is not more dangerous than it's Bijuudama. So far, that's the only thing that makes it so dangerous. A B-52 carrying a Nuke isn't more dangerous than a nuke. The Nuke is what causes the danger.


A B-52 that can create more nukes and has durability that can withstand its own nuke is far more dangerous than the nuke it unleashes. For Minato, he can do something about the Juubi's nuke but he can make no progress against the Juubi itself.

In other words, defending against a Juubi's bijuudama does not lessen the threat the Juubi still has over Minato. It is still there.  All Minato did was allow everyone to survive a little bit longer, and it certainly doesn't elevate his existing level.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> I don't think time is going to bother Minato. Considering he mastered the Kyuubi in like an hour while it took Naruto 16 years....I mean...


Consequently, their sync shouldn't be perfect like Naruto's considering Naruto and Yang Kurama have been fighting enemies much longer than they have.

I do think Minato's time limit in BM is going to be an issue against Hashirama. Naruto exhausted his first BM in the exact time it took for him to defeat five bijuu.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> Did you even read my post? I never stated that Hashirama would definitely fall to Minato. I said that Minato could remove the Shinsuusenju from the battlefield just as he did the Bijuudama.
> 
> What I find funny is that people believe Minato can do nothing to defend against Shinsuusenju, when he's defended against the Juubi. People are actually trying to use portrayal arguments to support Shodai. The Statue is no less vulnerable to Hiraishin than Bijuudama, and the Juubi's attack was the more impressive of the two.


Fair enough Rocky.

If we're talking about battlefield removal as a win, then that's a technical ring out in the BD but not really one in terms of manga context. Warping away Shinsuusenju GG is just a ridiculous conclusion.

Agreed with portrayal arguments - they have a pretty weak say on current, contemporary events of the manga endgame.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 8, 2013)

copydog123 said:


> Funny how hashi needs to be nerfed and minato needs to be beefed up with *borrowed power* to even stand a chance
> 
> 
> Still hashi stomps. In the fight with madara, he simply pulverized *full kyubi + PS* before using sealing jutsus I suppose.
> ...




funny how he(Hashi) had few Bijuu himself. lol 

Madara is not Minato, and Kurama without jin is weaker. 

- LOL, Minato can teleport the crap away, or blow it up with TBB. Funny how Hashi's fans 
can't say something reasonable here, because Minato has all he needs against him.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 8, 2013)

If you're debating, please don't bring 'fandom arguments' (saying someone is debating for character y because he's a fan of him or dislikes character x). It's poor etiquette, and generally dissolves into flame baiting. 

---

Regarding bijū-dama... well, I'm not sure about this. First of all, we don't even know if Minato can use it by himself without synchronizing up with Naruto and his Kyūbi first. If he could, why didn't he do it before? It doesn't really make much sense, for me, but I guess I'll give Minato the benefit of the doubt here and assume he can actually pull it off on his own without Naruto's help. Even if he could use it on his own, what could would it do, realistically? Hashirama is more than capable of defending against it, and already has done before in base, no less. He has a myriad of defensive mokuton techniques he can employ to block, or push it back, with. 

Of course, Minato can also use hiraishin trickery to place Hashirama within the immediate range of fire, too. He has two methods he can use here: kunai placements around the battlefield, and placing a manual seal on Hashirama himself. The first one, with all the terraforming going around from Minato blowing things up and Hashirama's mokuton abilities (which basically involves shifting around and tearing apart the ground), probably isn't all that safe as the kunai positions are liable to get changed. I could actually see a lot of kunai just getting destroyed or getting tangled in stray mokuton branches. Could you imagine kajukai kōrin being used while Minato sets up his kunai? The second is a bit more difficult to work with. Admittedly, Minato is faster than Hashirama, and while I don't think he can speed-blitz him like some suggest, he's definitely fast enough to eventually tag him. The problem here is that Hashirama also has ways to counter this. He's displayed against Madara (who has the Sharingan) that he's more than capable of using clone feints against opponents, and mokuton is ideal for removing line of sight so I don't think the Shodaime would have much difficulty trying to hide away first either. Also, he has sage senses and the ability to morph parts of his body into wood. Can Minato touch him before Hashirama senses him and just impales him with wooden spikes? It's possible, but there's also a chance he gets injured in the process too.

But let's forget all that, and assume that Minato does manage to get Hashirama directly within the line of fire of one first. Pretend Hashirama, for some magical reason, cannot use kuchiyose: gojū rashōmon (something he was able to use while being chased by a bijū-dama). Even without that, he still has regenerative abilities, Senju life-force/stamina, mokuton: hōbi no jutsu which can most likely sustain the explosion and mokuton: mokuryū no jutsu which was actually able to push one back right into Madara before in their flashback fight. All of these jutsu require one seal to execute, and the tailed beast bombs aren't really impressive in terms of speed. At the very least, his defensive jutsu should be able to soak up the damage enough so that his body itself wouldn't take that much damage.


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## Ashi (Sep 8, 2013)

You're kinda wrong about the bijuu being slow since a few of em tagged bm naruto and bee dodged the ten tails' tailed beast bomb


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## Rocky (Sep 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> Isn't Shinsuusenju larger in scale than the bijuudama Minato warped?



Not really. The Bijuudama towered over Bijuu, and was at least as big as the Juubi, which in turn is just as large as Shinsuusenju.



> On the flipside, I fail to see why warping away Shinsuusenju would cause an immediate defeat for Hashirama. Who knows if he can or can't reform the structure like Madara and Susano'o?



I never said that warping away Shinsuusenju would immediately spell defeat for Hashirama. Where are you drawing this from?

I also doubt he can reform the structure. If he could, he would've done so against Madara after the first one was destroyed. He also may not have the Chakra. I know it's Hashirama, but that is a _big_ Jutsu.



> A B-52 that can create more nukes and has durability that can withstand its own nuke is far more dangerous than the nuke it unleashes. For Minato, he can do something about the Juubi's nuke but he can make no progress against the Juubi itself.



It has the potential to be dangerous, but that's only because it has the nuke. 

Minato cannot defeat the Juubi, but the Juubi can't really defeat Edo Minato either, unless it can fire off multiple Bijuudama. The Juubi wouldn't be able to defeat Edo Rinnegan Obito either. S/T manipulation is kind of just like that.



> I do think Minato's time limit in BM is going to be an issue against Hashirama. Naruto exhausted his first BM in the exact time it took for him to defeat five bijuu.



Kurama mentioned no time limit. I'm going to wait and see, but I highly doubt it.




> If we're talking about battlefield removal as a win, then that's a technical ring out in the BD but not really one in terms of manga context. Warping away Shinsuusenju GG is just a ridiculous conclusion.



I never said Minato would win by BFR. You're putting words in my mouth. Minato could _possibly_ win by removing Hashirama's defenses with Hiraishin and _then_ capitalizing on an open Hashirama with the firepower of Kurama and his own raw speed. Warping away Shinsuusenju is only a defensive action. Winning comes with follow up.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 9, 2013)

Mokuton works by the chakra you put into it.  The bijuudama that blew up Hashirama's forest was actually the combined clash of a bijuudama shoved by a giant mokuton statue plus Perfect Susano smashing into each other.  There were still parts of his forest lying around, meaning it wasn't disintegrated, but I'l grant that it was largely gone.

Forgetting all of that, the statue, which held the exploding bijuudama in its hand, wasn't even scratched, and the Wood Dragon on its head was entirely fine as well, despite it taking some damage from the point blank bijuudama the other statue caught.  So Hashirama can make mokuton on the grand scale that's flat out immune to bijuudama, and we saw from the his Gigantic Bhudda statue that he can make Mokuton on par with No Holding Back 100% Kyuubi Machine Fired Perfect Susano Blade Infused Bijuu Dama.  That's far, far stronger than anything Minato can fire, unless you think that Minato+50% Kyuubi can make bijuudama that are better than the 100% Kyuubi plus a Perfect Susano blade.

So if Hashirama gets his battlefield assault stopped once, he'll just make his next wave of Mokuton to the level he made his first statue, or his Bhudda statue and then Minato can't blow it up anymore.  

You might question whether Hashirama can just do that, that is, put more chakra into his wood to drastically change the durabiliy.  Yamato showed up that Mokuton totally does work that way.  When Kisame broke out of the stocks, he commented that it was incredible, because not only were the stocks made out of Mokuton, but that he made this _particular_ Mokuton stronger than normal by using extra chakra, and reinforcing it.  This isn't even touching that the Bijuudama catching statue was done by Hashirama in base, and that Sage mode drastically enhances the power of jutsu, which Hashirama can flip on mid jutsu. (As seen when sealing the Juubi) 

So could Minato blow up the field and stop Hashirama's attack once?  Sure.  Will that destroy all the tags and seals he's trying to place and stop his blitz?  Absolutely, everything is getting nuked, and it's safe to say Minato is not going to blitz through his own field destroying explosion.

So the fight goes like this.

Minato goes to attack, Hashirama spams Mokuton from everywhere.

Minato counters by blowing up the field with a Bijuudama, Hashirama protects himself with Bijuudama proof shielding.

Hashirama attacks again for realzies, and Minato can't harm Hashirama in his constructs, or warp anything anywhere because he has no tags on the field, and the field now solidly belongs to Hashirama, who can and will use clones and feints and meld through his mokuton.  Links added upon request.


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## ueharakk (Sep 9, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Mokuton works by the chakra you put into it.  The bijuudama that blew up Hashirama's forest was actually the combined clash of a bijuudama shoved by a giant mokuton statue plus Perfect Susano smashing into each other.  There were still parts of his forest lying around, meaning it wasn't disintegrated, but I'l grant that it was largely gone.


wait are you saying that PS and mokujin added a signficant amount of power to the explosion of the bijuudama that we saw before Kyuusanoo?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Forgetting all of that, the statue, which held the exploding bijuudama in its hand, wasn't even scratched, and the Wood Dragon on its head was entirely fine as well, despite it taking some damage from the point blank bijuudama the other statue caught.


er, i think you need to reread the chapter as only one statue caught a bijuudama and there were no mokuton dragons around after the dama exploded. 

Moku hobi is the one that survived the blast radius of the bijuudama and it's very possible that it hid underground in order to do so considering the face is fused with the ground.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So Hashirama can make mokuton on the grand scale that's flat out immune to bijuudama, and we saw from the his Gigantic Bhudda statue that he can make Mokuton on par with No Holding Back 100% Kyuubi Machine Fired Perfect Susano Blade Infused Bijuu Dama.  That's far, far stronger than anything Minato can fire, unless you think that Minato+50% Kyuubi can make bijuudama that are better than the 100% Kyuubi plus a Perfect Susano blade.


the A>B>C logic of "100% Kurama + PS > 50% Kurama, thus Kyuusanoo's attack >>>>> Minato using 50% Kurama's power".  If you actually look at the power that Naruto can generate in BM, his super bijuudama is bigger than the collective damas that were fired as shinsuusenjuu in addition to the blast radius of his max dama being much larger than the explosion that the combined force of shinsusenjuu and kyuusanoo created at VoTe.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So if Hashirama gets his battlefield assault stopped once, he'll just make his next wave of Mokuton to the level he made his first statue, or his Bhudda statue and then Minato can't blow it up anymore.
> 
> You might question whether Hashirama can just do that, that is, put more chakra into his wood to drastically change the durabiliy.  Yamato showed up that Mokuton totally does work that way.  When Kisame broke out of the stocks, he commented that it was incredible, because not only were the stocks made out of Mokuton, but that he made this _particular_ *Mokuton stronger than normal by using extra chakra, and reinforcing it.*


Scan of the bolded?  And er, what makes you think that hashirama's statue that caught the bijuudama wasn't using the max chakra hashirama could put into that particular technique?


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## crystalblade13 (Sep 9, 2013)

hashi still wins this. just because minato AND NARUTO are fighting juubito well, doesn mean minato could do so by himself. and hashi trying one ineffective sage move against juubito doesnt mean his other sage jutsu would be inneffective.

 Hashi makes 25 clones, 2 golems, and 2 dragons for distraction, while he makes a big sleepy flower. minato falls asleep, then gets punched to death by mountain sized fists.


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## Azula (Sep 9, 2013)

crystalblade13 said:


> Hashi makes 25 clones, 2 golems, and 2 dragons for distraction, while he makes a big sleepy flower. minato falls asleep, then gets punched to death by mountain sized fists.


does hashirama have 10 arms and is the sleepy flower immune to bijuu dama for some reason , just curious


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## Trojan (Sep 9, 2013)

ForeverLove said:


> does hashirama have 10 arms and is the sleepy flower immune to bijuu dama for some reason , just curious



he does not need to cuz he's "Hashi"

I wonder if Minato slapped Hashi, is he going to be a tree? @.@

anyway, perhaps we will get more feats in the next chapter, we already know Hashi's full power
unlike the other Hokages, so things might change.


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## copydog123 (Sep 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> funny how he(Hashi) had few Bijuu himself. lol
> 
> Madara is not Minato, and Kurama without jin is weaker.
> 
> ...




Funny, how hashi actually uses his own power to suppress bijuus (instead of borrowing power from the bijuus). 

Besides, unlike the jins or Madara (who actually controlled bijuu), we saw hashi physically subduing kyubi instead of forcing other bijuus to cooperate - a huge feat in and of itself. 

Minato can also go sleeping beauty with pollen jutsus and have hashi's huge buddha boot stomp him 300 meters into the earth.



Oh last but not least, not sure how release bijuus are that weaker than jin especially when we have minato with only half kyubi (a jin with only half the bijuu) and *hashi dealt with the full version*. 

can't say something reasonable here, because hashi has all he needs against minato (and more).


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## copydog123 (Sep 9, 2013)

Signa Inferemus said:


> If you're debating, please don't bring 'fandom arguments' (saying someone is debating for character y because he's a fan of him or dislikes character x). It's poor etiquette, and generally dissolves into flame baiting.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...




A pretty decent argument. 

Another possibility is hashi spreading the area with pollen jutsu to slow his opponents down (if it does not knock them out cold). how that affects bm powered opponents, not sure. 

but madara felt confident enough to have the gokage almost go on the run.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2013)

copydog123 said:


> Minato can also go sleeping beauty with pollen jutsus and have hashi's huge buddha boot stamp on him 300 meters into the earth.



Minato's Kurama avatar is tall enough to stand above the forest, and it would shield him from the particles anyway. Flower Tree World wouldn't work here, similar to how it wouldn't work on Madara.

Shinsuusenju has strength and size, but it lacks speed. That's the difference between Minato & Madara. The ability to Hiraishin and Shunshin at speeds very difficult to track is something Madara never had. Madara had a bit more firepower than Minato does, but it's mitigated by the fact that Minato can warp away Hashirama's Mokuton, just as he relocated the Juubi's Bijuudama.

Minato can fight on Hashirama's scale with Bijuu Mode, and many of the problematic things Hashirama can create can be warped away, or even avoided.


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## copydog123 (Sep 9, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato's Kurama avatar is tall enough to stand above the forest, and it would shield him from the particles anyway. Flower Tree World wouldn't work here, similar to how it wouldn't work on Madara.
> 
> Shinsuusenju has strength and size, but it lacks speed. That's the difference between Minato & Madara. The ability to Hiraishin and Shunshin at speeds very difficult to track is something Madara never had. Madara had a bit more firepower than Minato does, but it's mitigated by the fact that Minato can warp away Hashirama's Mokuton, just as he relocated the Juubi's Bijuudama.
> 
> Minato can fight on Hashirama's scale with Bijuu Mode, and many of the problematic things Hashirama can create can be warped away, or even avoided.





minato's warping away feats are very contradictory in nature. It definitely does not get the benefit of no limits fallacy argument as we have seen minato not warp away juubito. 

besides, hashi's forests are pretty massive in area coverage and can constantly mess with minato's kunai placements. 

the current problem is that hashi (for whatever reason that kishi is taking his sweet time) has not involved in the fight with juubito when tobirama actually got a decent panel time providing the brainwork as well as huge support.

however, if hashi does get involved (may in 10 years when kishi wants), his performance against juubti will provide a better indication of his standing compared to bm minato. As juubito is the only common denominator here as per their relative strength. 


however, speedwise, hashi is no slouch. we know itachi is ultra fast in susanoo and madara in perfect susanoo may not be that slow either.


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## Trojan (Sep 9, 2013)

copydog123 said:


> Funny, how hashi actually uses his own power to suppress bijuus (instead of borrowing power from the bijuus).
> 
> Besides, unlike the jins or Madara (who actually controlled bijuu), we saw hashi physically subduing kyubi instead of forcing other bijuus to cooperate - a huge feat in and of itself.
> 
> ...



It does not matter, he's still using them. Funny how even with using them for the war he got
killed, unlike Minato who solo'd the war. 

physically ? 
I'm sure it was his jutsu and not him!

- Minato can eaisly teleport that as he teleported the 10tails' TBB I don't know what so hard
for you to understand, maybe because it hurts you so badly? 

- Obito is the jin for the Juubi who's not at the final stage and he still stomped Hashi.
the full Kurama was it able to teleport or teleporting other things, or focusing its power? No

- Well, Hashi can still win of course, but he'll lose more time than not. And at the very least
if things went so bad, SF still is a GG.  

anyway, as I said we already know Hashi's full power, let's wait for the others and see. 
I wonder if Minato's long named jutsu can change something. @.@


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## copydog123 (Sep 9, 2013)

Elia said:


> It does not matter, he's still using them. Funny how even with using them for the war he got
> killed, unlike Minato who solo'd the war.
> 
> physically ?
> ...




which war did minato solo again?

funny because I remember only two instances:

1. Minato had to sacrifice himself while hashi soloed both madara + full kyubi and remained standing (So at best I can claim that both of them stopped their respective wars - madara + kurama and tobi + kurama).  

2. Minato swatted by juubito like a fly (and got tagged with a bijuu bomb). So much for speed such that tobirama had to save his hide (and by extension, naruto's and sasuke's). 

By the way, when did juubito stomp hsahi? all I can remember was a clone. Minato's own performance is quite sub par against juubto (as I explained in point 2 above).

*If kishi ever lets hashi join the battle against juubito, it will provide a better indication of the relative standing of minato's speed and. hashi's strength. *

By the way, I am not underestimating minato - although it may appear so. I am countering the usual arguments for him where he can warp away literally anything and everything that comes his way. especially when we saw that it was not effective against juubito. 

and the fact, that hashi is not even getting involved due to kishi's stalling. 

All I can base on right now is that hashi's strength reputation is legendary bordering on mythical. minato's himself had his fair amount of reputation, but given how every villain and their mother is chasing after hashi's DNA (including obito who himself had them), steers me towards giving hashi the benefit of the doubt.


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## Rocky (Sep 10, 2013)

copydog123 said:


> minato's warping away feats are very contradictory in nature. It definitely does not get the benefit of no limits fallacy argument as we have seen minato not warp away juubito.



Warping away Jubito wouldn't solve the problem.

Besisdes, Jubito is a person. The Shin Sūsenju is an attack, like Bijuudama, and Minato tends to send overwhelming attacks to another location. 



> besides, hashi's forests are pretty massive in area coverage and can constantly mess with minato's kunai placements.



Minato has _spread_ Kunai around the Ten-Tails, with a comfortable amount of space at the corners. If we consider that the Ten-Tails is about is big as Hashirama's Buddha, then you should realize Hashirama's battlefield control may not be so overwhelming. 



> the current problem is that hashi (for whatever reason that kishi is taking his sweet time) has not involved in the fight with juubito when tobirama actually got a decent panel time providing the brainwork as well as huge support.
> 
> however, if hashi does get involved (may in 10 years when kishi wants), his performance against juubti will provide a better indication of his standing compared to bm minato. As juubito is the only common denominator here as per their relative strength.



I don't think Hashirama will do much better. The Shin Sūsenju is just a massive target for Obito's continent scale bombs. It's also physically weaker than Obito, considering that Obito tore down the continent-scale-bomb-tanking Hokage barrier. 

It's Naruto's time to shine now anyway. 



> however, speedwise, hashi is no slouch. we know itachi is ultra fast in susanoo and madara in perfect susanoo may not be that slow either.



Hashirama may not be a slouch, but he isn't any faster than Ei. Ei is slower than Base Minato, who's slower than KCM/BM Minato....so there's a large gap.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 12, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> wait are you saying that PS and mokujin added a signficant amount of power to the explosion of the bijuudama that we saw before Kyuusanoo?



Probably.  You can see in the panel below the shove that Hashirama added more shove to it in a bid to power through the Perfect Susano defence.  How that effected the explosion, and how that works, I don't know.  But Hashirama certainly thought it would do something so he did it.



> er, i think you need to reread the chapter as only one statue caught a bijuudama and there were no mokuton dragons around after the dama exploded.



Hat-kun shows up just fine later.

Link removed

He's on top of the other Mokuton Dude, who's on top of the statue.  I guess you could say that he instantaneously made new ones, but I can't see why he'd make another dragon outside of an obsession to give his constructs powerful hats.




> Moku hobi is the one that survived the blast radius of the bijuudama and it's very possible that it hid underground in order to do so considering the face is fused with the ground.



How could it hide underground when it was using the attack?  And it blew up the ground and made a crater.  Really if Hashirama can pull off a doton of that scale mid-explosion, when he's the one propagating the explosion, then there should be no question as the level of his reactions, speed, or skill ever.  



> the A>B>C logic of "100% Kurama + PS > 50% Kurama, thus Kyuusanoo's attack >>>>> Minato using 50% Kurama's power".  If you actually look at the power that Naruto can generate in BM, his super bijuudama is bigger than the collective damas that were fired as shinsuusenjuu in addition to the blast radius of his max dama being much larger than the explosion that the combined force of shinsusenjuu and kyuusanoo created at VoTe.



50% kyuubi is obviously just that much stronger than 2-7 tails combined, no matter how stupid that is.  Maybe the other bijuu just fire fodderdamas.  

I'm not a fan of the synergy theory that says that when the 9 tails gets a partner, it becomes many times it's original power.  Bee, after all, has perfect synergy with the Hachibi, and his didn't even finish off Suigetsu.




> Scan of the bolded?  And er, what makes you think that hashirama's statue that caught the bijuudama wasn't using the max chakra hashirama could put into that particular technique?



Yamato, I guess just got done making the stocks.

Link removed

Yamato says he reinforced the stocks.
Link removed

I'm pretty sure Yamato made the stocks, because they're in the middle of nowhere, and it's pointless for him to say that he reinforced things made out of mokuton chakra with mokuton chakra if adding more chakra to it didn't make them stronger.  

Which fits with how Hashirama and Yamato can make varying strengths of Mokuton constructs, given that everything they make is still made of same looking wood.  I.E. Sasuke can bust through a mokuton dome and Kisame can break stocks, but Yamato can restrain a giant octopus and cushion the fall of gigantic two ton animals in free fall.  It's just about making it thicker, denser, and packed with more chakra.

Similar to , in how Hiruzen's earth wall looks ugly, but is, "No ordinary earth wall," because it's filled with dense chakra reinforcing it to be hokage level.

"The barrier itself is also coated with chakra, making its strength incomparable to that of a normal mud wall."  Which is separate from the normal characteristic defenses of doton, because next sentence is, "Because of the earth's special characteristics, the wall is highly resistant against, for instance, fire and water." ...which is just what doton does naturally.  Doesn't burn i.e. Gaara vs Sasuke and is super effective against water as per the elemental wheel.

Oh, and Hashirama wasn't putting in the max chakra at least because he didn't make those in sage mode or with the sage boost.  Since sage mode makes a more and stronger quality of chakra, enough to perfect a rasen-shuriken, enough to turn a normal rasengan into a cho-oodama rasengan one handed, and enough to do whatever it did last chapter when Kishi made Minato and Naruto teleport that sqiggly ball that took half the page into Obito, I know Hashirama's mokuton can dramatically stronger if he wants it to be on a whim.

Though I think he can just add more normal chakra by the Yamato stocks mechanics without resorting to sage mode.



ForeverLove said:


> does hashirama have 10 arms and is the sleepy flower immune to bijuu dama for some reason , just curious



LB?


----------



## Trojan (Sep 12, 2013)

> =copydog123;48401123]which war did minato solo again?


the 3rd. 


> funny because I remember only two instances:
> 
> 1. Minato had to sacrifice himself while hashi soloed both madara + full kyubi and remained standing (So at best I can claim that both of them stopped their respective wars - madara + kurama and tobi + kurama).


Minato is the one who chose to do that. 



> 2. Minato swatted by juubito like a fly (and got tagged with a bijuu bomb). So much for speed such that tobirama had to save his hide (and by extension, naruto's and sasuke's).



Obito fodderized Hashi & Madara with one jutsu by the way. 


> By the way, when did juubito stomp hsahi? all I can remember was a clone. Minato's own performance is quite sub par against juubto (as I explained in point 2 above).


How sad
Link removed
Hashi's clones can't use SM, and look there Hashi with SM and he's inside the barrier!


> *If kishi ever lets hashi join the battle against juubito, it will provide a better indication of the relative standing of minato's speed and. hashi's strength. *



Well, that's possible, but it did not happen. All what Kishi make Hashi said
is the fact that mindless obito in his last form is stronger than him.


> By the way, I am not underestimating minato - although it may appear so. I am countering the usual arguments for him where he can warp away literally anything and everything that comes his way. especially when we saw that it was not effective against juubito.



How it was not? 
Obito's attack with 4 of TBBs was useless, because of Minato's FTG. Other than that
Minato did not use S/T barrier against obito in the first place! 


> and the fact, that hashi is not even getting involved due to kishi's stalling.



well, he's stuck with Madara + Kishi gave him a chance when he first attacked obito
and he failed. 


> All I can base on right now is that hashi's strength reputation is legendary bordering on mythical. minato's himself had his fair amount of reputation, but given how every villain and their mother is chasing after hashi's DNA (including obito who himself had them), steers me towards giving hashi the benefit of the doubt.



I don't deny Hashi's power, but saying that he's the strongest because other people take his
DNA is,,, well let's say not a proof! Especially that we have a proof that he's NOT the strongest!
and obito took his DNA not by his will, it's Madara who gave it to him to save his life after what
happened to him.

and one more thing!
Link removed

apparently Hashi's power is also a borrowed power from the 10tails.


----------



## ueharakk (Sep 12, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Probably.  You can see in the panel below the shove that Hashirama added more shove to it in a bid to power through the Perfect Susano defence.  How that effected the explosion, and how that works, I don't know.  But Hashirama certainly thought it would do something so he did it.


So in short, you don't know how it would increase the power of the explosion?




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hat-kun shows up just fine later.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> He's on top of the other Mokuton Dude, who's on top of the statue.  I guess you could say that he instantaneously made new ones, but I can't see why he'd make another dragon outside of an obsession to give his constructs powerful hats.


So you are saying that mokuryu that was atop mokujin when the dama clashed with PS somehow survived the explosion that destroyed mokujin, then stayed out of sight and offpanel until hashirama used mokuton buddah in which the dragon ran up the construct and sat atop the new mokujin all of this without a panel showing mokuryu doing any of that?





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> How could it hide underground when it was using the attack?  And it blew up the ground and made a crater.  Really if Hashirama can pull off a doton of that scale mid-explosion, when he's the one propagating the explosion, then there should be no question as the level of his reactions, speed, or skill ever.


there hasn't ever been any kind of downplay on the guys speed, reactions and skills.  




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> 50% kyuubi is obviously just that much stronger than 2-7 tails combined, no matter how stupid that is.  Maybe the other bijuu just fire fodderdamas.


sure he is, but that doesn't mean that any bijuudama fired from 50% Kurama is going to be stronger or weaker than any bijuudama that 2-7 individually fire.  The bijuudama that we saw kurama use against Hashi at VoTe wasn't any more powerful than the ones that 2-7 were capable of gauging the dama by both size of dama and blast radius of explosion.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm not a fan of the synergy theory that says that when the 9 tails gets a partner, it becomes many times it's original power.  Bee, after all, has perfect synergy with the Hachibi, and his didn't even finish off Suigetsu.


Is that your only support for why you don't believe things that are actually stated and shown to be true in the manga?  Because Bee didn't finish off suigetsu in a lake with a single bijuudama? Suigetsu while in a lake got K.O'd by the mere traveling force of a bijuudama, if you reread the fight the actual explosion occured miles behind suigetsu.  And saying bee didn't finish off suigetsu is like saying Madara didn't finish off temari, therefore it's some kind of downplay on madara's abilitys.  





The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yamato, I guess just got done making the stocks.
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...


Kisame has super strength even when his chakra is split by 1/3, Sasuke not only has a sword, but he somehow blew up the roof of that room he fought sai in.  Yamato used much more wood to restrain and catch the big animals.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Similar to , in how Hiruzen's earth wall looks ugly, but is, "No ordinary earth wall," because it's filled with dense chakra reinforcing it to be hokage level.
> 
> "The barrier itself is also coated with chakra, making its strength incomparable to that of a normal mud wall."  Which is separate from the normal characteristic defenses of doton, because next sentence is, "Because of the earth's special characteristics, the wall is highly resistant against, for instance, fire and water." ...which is just what doton does naturally.  Doesn't burn i.e. Gaara vs Sasuke and is super effective against water as per the elemental wheel.
> 
> Oh, and Hashirama wasn't putting in the max chakra at least because he didn't make those in sage mode or with the sage boost.  Since sage mode makes a more and stronger quality of chakra, enough to perfect a rasen-shuriken, enough to turn a normal rasengan into a cho-oodama rasengan one handed, and enough to do whatever it did last chapter when Kishi made Minato and Naruto teleport that sqiggly ball that took half the page into Obito, I know Hashirama's mokuton can dramatically stronger if he wants it to be on a whim.


by the logic of a normal rasengan turning into a chou oodama rasengan, hashirama's wood jutsu wouldn't have become more durable than their base incarnations rather they'd become much larger than their base incarnations which is what we see when he uses shinsuusenjuu.

And none of that shows that hashirama didn't use his max chakra on the mokujin that he used against kurama and madara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 12, 2013)

> Is that your only support for why you don't believe things that are actually stated and shown to be true in the manga? Because Bee didn't finish off suigetsu in a lake with a single bijuudama? Suigetsu while in a lake got K.O'd by the mere traveling force of a bijuudama, if you reread the fight the actual explosion occured miles behind suigetsu. And saying bee didn't finish off suigetsu is like saying Madara didn't finish off temari, therefore it's some kind of downplay on madara's abilitys.



Where was it stated that Naruto and 50% kyuubi working together is superior to 100% Kurama working alone?



> ]Is that your only support



Naruto doesn't have as much chakra as half Kurama.  So putting them together can't equal full Kurama.  If this were My Little Ninja, Friendship Exponentially Increases Your Power Level Beyond Theoretical Yield, I would be all up in the magic of friendship making them stronger.  



> Kisame has super strength even when his chakra is split by 1/3, Sasuke not only has a sword, but he somehow blew up the roof of that room he fought sai in. Yamato used much more wood to restrain and catch the big animals.



What does Kisame's strength have to do with reinforcing mokuton?




> by the logic of a normal rasengan turning into a chou oodama rasengan, hashirama's wood jutsu wouldn't have become more durable than their base incarnations rather they'd become much larger than their base incarnations which is what we see when he uses shinsuusenjuu.



Sage enhanced FRS didn't make the FRS bigger, it just made it better.  Sage Kabuto didn't use a bigger version of Kimi's Sawabi no mai, but it made the bones stronger.

Sage enhanced Kido webbing didn't make bigger webs, it made them strong to the point Sasuke couldn't hack it away with a chidori gatana kusanagi.

I used the wrong set of examples, but big deal.  Sage energy makes stuff better.

Hashi can make wood that can tank bijuudamas.  The wood that didn't tank bijuudamas was obviously weaker wood than the wood that did tank it.  

The sage statue that punched out super bijuudamas and ripped thought PS armor obviously had more than just amount of wood going for it, or else each punch wouldn't have cancelled one bijuudama with perfect susano blade.  Or else, they would have blown through them and beaten him.  



> And none of that shows that hashirama didn't use his max chakra on the mokujin that he used against kurama and madara.



Hashirama never once displayed any trouble with Madara.  Quite the opposite, he held back the entire fight because he didn't want to kill, harm, or even fight with Madara in the first place.  He could, up until sticking swords in balls, handle everything Madara threw at him with ease, and spent his time doing that smiling and complimenting his opponent.  Then he decided to go sage mode and end him.  

Please explain to me why you think someone who is explicitly holding back would use his maximum power in his casually cast jutsu from the start.


Oh don't you give me that look.


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## ueharakk (Sep 12, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Where was it stated that Naruto and 50% kyuubi working together is superior to 100% Kurama working alone?


that's not what i was responding to.  i'm arguing that a jinchuriki using a bijuu's power is much stronger than the bijuu using its own power itself.

But i in fact do believe that BM Naruto is superior to 100% Kurama due to the feats and abilities that both possess.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto doesn't have as much chakra as half Kurama.  So putting them together can't equal full Kurama.  If this were My Little Ninja, Friendship Exponentially Increases Your Power Level Beyond Theoretical Yield, I would be all up in the magic of friendship making them stronger.


In raw power, no kurama has way more chakra, but BM Naruto can actually USE that power he has to its fullest in addition to having huge advantages over 100% Kurama like an avatar that change shape, reform and doesn't feel pain rather than a flesh and blood body, ability to use ninjutsus, super speed etc.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What does Kisame's strength have to do with reinforcing mokuton?


look at what you typed.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sage enhanced FRS didn't make the FRS bigger, it just made it better.  Sage Kabuto didn't use a bigger version of Kimi's Sawabi no mai, but it made the bones stronger.


Sage enhanced FRS allowed the technique to be completed...  Sage kabuto sawabi no mai wasn't even as big as kimi's.  that just means that he didn't use as much chakra as kimi.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sage enhanced Kido webbing didn't make bigger webs, it made them strong to the point Sasuke couldn't hack it away with a chidori gatana kusanagi.
> 
> I used the wrong set of examples, but big deal.  Sage energy makes stuff better.
> 
> *Hashi can make wood that can tank bijuudamas. * The wood that didn't tank bijuudamas was obviously weaker wood than the wood that did tank it.


The bolded is something you'd have to give an argument for, not just simply state "it makes his wood stronger therefore its strong enough to tank bijuudamas".  HOW much stronger does it make the wood that got vaporized by the mere blast radius of a dama?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The sage statue that punched out super bijuudamas and ripped thought PS armor obviously had more than just amount of wood going for it, or else each punch wouldn't have cancelled one bijuudama with perfect susano blade.  Or else, they would have blown through them and beaten him.


Er, we saw 11 bijuudama blades, we saw 1,000 punches.  that's worse than a 1-90 ratio.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hashirama never once displayed any trouble with Madara.  Quite the opposite, he held back the entire fight because he didn't want to kill, harm, or even fight with Madara in the first place.  He could, up until sticking swords in balls, handle everything Madara threw at him with ease, and spent his time doing that smiling and complimenting his opponent.  Then he decided to go sage mode and end him.


Yeah, so a serious hashirama = shinsuusenjuu.  He's already holding back on the level of jutsu he's using against madara, why would he additionally hold back on the amount of chakra he puts into those jutsus?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Please explain to me why you think someone who is explicitly holding back would use his maximum power in his casually cast jutsu from the start.


Because only using casually cast jutsus is already holding back, thus you'd have to explain how he both was holding back on on his jutsu he was using AND the amount of chakra he used in those jutsus.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oh don't you give me that look.


i give everyone that look, even myself.


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