# Top 5 Strongest Sage Mode users?



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 16, 2015)

Who do you guys think are the top 5, in terms of overall ability. So this takes into account mastery and proficiency and strength said character gains.

I want to know how you'd rank these 5.

1. Sage Naruto/Bijuu Sage Mode
2. Sage Hashirama
3. Sage Kabuto
4. Sage Minato
5. Sage Jiraya

This is how I'd rank them. How would you?

Naruto is first because he can combine his with his bijuu mode, making it even stronger.

Hashirama is second because he can enter sage mode in an instant according to the databook. 

Kabuto is 3rd because his sm isn't exactly perfect, he needed the cells and dna of multiple different ninja in order to reach his level, plus his horns and snake like features kind of suggest that he isn't perfect. 

Some may disagree but minato has the eyes of a true sage, meaning perfect balance of chakra and nature energy and no frog like features. Plus he can use it on his own.

Jiraya requires toad fusion. can't really use it by himself (as said by shima), can't balance the nature enegy perfectly. Isn't a true sage.


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## Trojan (Apr 16, 2015)

If you mean in SM itself, then, as you said.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 16, 2015)

Where is Jugo's Senjutsu?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 16, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Where is Jugo's Senjutsu?



he possesses senjutsu, but he isn't a "sage mode" user. Just like all curse mark users utilize senjutsu, doesn't mean they are sages.


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## Gibbs (Apr 16, 2015)

Switch Jiraiya & Minato. Minato's SM was terrrible.


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## Kyu (Apr 16, 2015)

Not including rikudo-powered Sage Modes.


1.) BSM Naruto (EoS/The Last)

-substantial gap-

2.) SM Hashirama
3.) BSM Naruto (war arc)

-large gap-

4.)SM Kabuto
5.)SM Minato*
6.)SM Naruto(war arc)
7.)SM Jiraiya

*Minato using Jiraiya's method to remain in Sage Mode indefinitely. 


If you wanna throw in One eyed SM Madara; he would be directly underneath the number one spot.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 16, 2015)

Gibbs said:


> Switch Jiraiya & Minato. Minato's SM was terrrible.



so was jiraya's, it's even worse.

only reason minato could be more effective is because he couldn't summon the toads at that time.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 16, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> so was jiraya's, it's even worse.
> 
> only reason minato could be more effective is because he couldn't summon the toads at that time.


Jiraiya's was incomplete, but his was battle ready. Minato? By his own admission he sucked at it and that was his only Sage Mode usage _period._ Jiraiya was able to use Sage Mode for longer periods without the toads, having at least the five minute limit Naruto had. Minato? Could only maintain his Sage Mode for a _second._


 BSM Naruto Uzumaki (The Last/EOS)
 BSM Naruto/Sage Mode Hashirama
 War Arc Sage Mode Naruto
 Sage Mode Kabuto
 Sage Mode Jiraiya
 Sage Mode Minato


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## Kyu (Apr 16, 2015)

Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu solves Minato's problem. Drawing a blood contract on his face and summoning the elder sages to fuse deviates from his usual fighting-style of quickly striking down the enemy through teleporting. 



> Jiraiya was able to use Sage Mode for longer periods without the toads, having at least the five minute limit Naruto had



According to what?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 16, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Senpō: Ryōsei no Jutsu solves Minato's problem. Drawing a blood contract on his face and summoning the elder sages to fuse deviates from his usual fighting-style of quickly striking down the enemy through teleporting.


Sage Mode contributed so little to Minato's fighting style, he doesn't use it at ALL in combat. Not in life, and only once as an Edo Tensei. He relied on Naruto for it, and said when Naruto entered Sage Mode, he called it _Jiraiya-sensei's_ Sage Mode, not his own due to superior skill.

He likely couldn't summon the toads for the Amphibian Technique due to how long it would have taken him to build the chakra. 


> According to what?


Given that Fukasaku said Jiraiya was able to use Sage Mode both with him and Shima and without, its likely Jiraiya had the same five minute limit as Naruto since his reserves were compared to Naruto's at the time, remember?

While Jiraiya's was incomplete, he was more skilled with his Sage Mode and could use it in battle. Minato? No skill with it and could barely _use_ it despite it being perfected.

Kabuto's Sage Mode _was_ perfect, at least the Sage Mode variant. He just used Jugo's DNA so he could be in Sage Mode indefinitely without a time limit, OP.


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## Kyu (Apr 16, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage Mode contributed so little to Minato's fighting style, he doesn't use it at ALL in combat. Not in life, and only once as an Edo Tensei.



Jiraiya taking an entire chapter to enter Sage Mode with Fukasaku & Shima heavily implies it's a time issue (from Minato's perspective).



> He relied on Naruto for it, and said when Naruto entered Sage Mode, he called it _Jiraiya-sensei's_ Sage Mode, not his own due to superior skill.



Jiraiya is certainly more knowledgeable and has more experience fighting in his senjutsu empowered state, but his inability to balance out his own chakra with natural energy suggests he's less accomplished in the sage arts.



> He likely couldn't summon the toads for the Amphibian Technique due to how long it would have taken him to build the chakra.



Hence: 


> Drawing a blood contract on his face and summoning the elder sages to fuse deviates from his usual fighting-style of quickly striking down the enemy through teleporting.






> Given that Fukasaku said Jiraiya was able to use Sage Mode both with him and Shima and without, its likely Jiraiya had the same five minute limit as Naruto since his reserves were compared to Naruto's at the time, remember?



Not for nothing, but Naruto has a shitload more chakra in the tank than Jiraiya does.

And you can't really scale Jiraiya's senjutsu capabilities to Naruto's due to the pupil utterly embarrassing his teacher in that regard.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 16, 2015)

The way it's titled is confusing.

The question is whether you mean overall ability of the shinobi or their proficiency in Sage Mode, because that's two different things. Everyone, save Minato, developed special techniques in Sage Mode which drastically improved their versatility, making them more skilled Sages. 

Minato basically only showed the ability to filter Natural Energy into his Palm Rasengan by entering the form nigh instantly, in order to physically damage a Juubi Jinchuriki (Madara). He may not have mastered Frog Kata  and his sensory abilities may not have been as great as Naruto's in SM.

That being said, yes, your list (as far as power levels go) is accurate for these shinobi overall, who have the ability to use Sage Mode in one form or another.

However, Jiraiya's mastery of SM, overall, is superior to Minato's because:
1. Pa canonically stated he mastered Frog Kata
2. The Databook suggests he has "Danger Sense" / Sage Sensory
3. Jiraiya specifically developed multiple Senjutsu techniques in the Mode

Other than those two the list remains accurate as far as both power levels and mastery of SM go. Kabuto's sensory perception was superior to Jiraiya's (fighting Uchiha Bros blinded) canonically, he had all of the automatic attributes Jiraiya had (increased speed/strength/Senjutsu techniques) and he had the ability to remain in SM without the need of outside help indefinitely, if Ma/Pa were dead Jiraiya literally wouldn't be capable of entering Sage Mode. Hashirama & Naruto are clearly above the other three, one has the ability to sustain SM while in a bijuu mode alone and the other can also enter, sustain and remain in it for extremely long periods without the need for special enhancement (even Kabuto needed Jugo's DNA to sustain SM while moving).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 16, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Jiraiya taking an entire chapter to enter Sage Mode with Fukasaku & Shima heavily implies it's a time issue (from Minato's perspective).


Jiraiya took an entire chapter to summon Fukasaku and Shima actually. Fukasaku said he could enter Sage Mode without them.




> Jiraiya is certainly more knowledgeable and has more experience fighting in his senjutsu empowered state, but his inability to balance out his own chakra with natural energy suggests he's less accomplished in the sage arts.


Less accomplished? Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode had shown far more power, far more duration, and more abilities compared to Minato's which fizzled out after a _second or so_ of use. Jiraiya's may be more imperfect, but his skill was far greater than Minato's to the point where Minato himself alluded Jiraiya was more skilled.




> Not for nothing, but Naruto has a shitload more chakra in the tank than Jiraiya does.


Fukasaku directly stated Jiraiya's reserves were comparable to Naruto's. He was a chakra beast. 


> And you can't really scale Jiraiya's senjutsu capabilities to Naruto's due to the pupil utterly embarrassing his teacher in that regard.


Actually I can. Jiraiya could use Kawazu Kumite just like Naruto. Jiraiya could sense, just like Naruto. Jiraiya could empower his own techniques with Senjutsu chakra, just like Naruto. Naruto is superior, but the gap isn't that big until the War Arc.


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## Kyu (Apr 17, 2015)

> Jiraiya took an entire chapter to summon Fukasaku and Shima actually. Fukasaku said he could enter Sage Mode without them.



Okay.



> Less accomplished?



In terms of perfectly balancing natural energy and acquiring the markings of a true toad sage, yes he is more accomplished than Jiraiya.



> Fukasaku directly stated Jiraiya's reserves were comparable to Naruto's. He was a chakra beast.



More chakra than an Uzumaki with Kurama's chakra constantly seeping into his own chakra pool? We talking about the same blond Uzumaki who can maintain hundreds of clones for an entire day _without_ tapping into his Biju's chakra? Ha, good one.

Btw:



You realize Minato fits this criteria too don't you?



> Actually I can.



and you'd be wrong in doing so.



> Jiraiya could use Kawazu Kumite just like Naruto.


Mustn't have been adept in using them if he didn't incorporate them in his battle to the death against Pain.



> Jiraiya could sense, just like Naruto. Jiraiya could empower his own techniques with Senjutsu chakra, just like Naruto.



So can every other Sage in the verse. 



> Naruto is superior



And you said it here, exactly.

Having the same abilities doesn't equate to performing them on the same level as someone better than you in managing what allows you to utilize those skills in the first place.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 17, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Jiraiya taking an entire chapter to enter Sage Mode with Fukasaku & Shima heavily implies it's a time issue (from Minato's perspective).



From some point between here _(1)_ and here _(2)_ is the span of time Jiraiya actually requires to enter Sage Mode.

You have to remember that one of the requirements to enter Sage Mode is to remain perfectly still in order to draw in natural energy. You can't move so much as a muscle, which is challenging when you're riding on a toad so clumsy
that you might be tripped up before it even attacks or is attacked _(3)_, especially once it's actually under attack _(4)_, hence Jiraiya's complaints about the ride not being smooth.

Jiraiya was being forced to move around all while Gamaken attempted to fend off the aggressing giant summons. It wasn't until after Gamaken was still as he lay on the floor after being struck by that bird thing (which he did until he left) that Jiraiya was able to remain still long enough to achieve his heightened form.



_That's_ not going to be a time issue for any Hiraishin user, so Minato's problem _must_ be _something else_ that doesn't apply to Jiraiya.

Now, Fukasaku highlighted two problems on opposite ends of the spectrum; he said that too little natural energy results in someone not being able to use the arts whereas too much results in the frog-like features.

I think Minato and Jiraiya are meant to exhibit these two problems.

Minato's issue is that he can't _knead the natural energy with his own Chakra_ at a fast enough rate to maintain the balance necessary for the transformation for more than a short time, whereas Jiraiya doesn't have the same problem of being unable to maintain his Sage transformation for more than a brief period because his problem is the opposite of Minato's- he brings slightly _too much_ natural energy into the kneading equation too quickly at any one point, not too _little_, and as a result he begins to develop frog-like features where Minato does not.

It's almost like the Senjutsu version of the tree-climbing exercise when it first started: Minato is Naruto (too little), Naruto is Sakura (just right), and Jiraiya is Sasuke (too much).

That's the problem _with *or* without_ Ryōsei no Jutsu, because in that Fukasaku and Shima are only drawing in the energy for the user to knead, they don't do the actual kneading themselves. If they did, Jiraiya wouldn't have to worry about producing frog-like features for the same reason Minato wouldn't have to worry about his transformation wearing off quickly.


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## Kai (Apr 17, 2015)

Mastery
Naruto
Hashirama
Kabuto
Jiraiya
Minato

Minato's mastery is the worst even by his own admission. The process of achieving the state can be mastered, but without being able to maintain the state it's not mastery. Minato's Sage Mode is completely impractical for battle unlike the sages above him.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 17, 2015)

He could arguably maintain it with the help of Ma/Pa. 

It's not that he can't maintain it, because Jiraiya can't do that either, it's that he hasn't proven that he mastered Frog Katas, has any Senjutsu based techniques, that he has Danger Sense/Improved Sensory abilities, or that he's even capable of actively performing well (controlling his movement/the Natural Energy in himself) in the mode.

The fact that Minato didn't look like a frog, could enter the mode nigh instantly, and manifested a Rasengan in it suggests that he could maintain it with Ma/Pa IMO, because he already showed he could enter the mode fully (not a half-assed SM- that was legit SM), that he could refrain from deforming (frog/stone), and that he could utilize Ninjutsu while in it (FTG & Rasengan). But that doesn't mean he's mastered Sage Mode (all of it's attributing factors- Frog Kata/Senjutsu Techniques/Sensing- controlling the Natural Energy well enough to shunshin faster/strike harder) as well as Jiraiya.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 17, 2015)

Kyu said:


> In terms of perfectly balancing natural energy and acquiring the markings of a true toad sage, yes he is more accomplished than Jiraiya.


Yet Jiraiya's was usable while Minato's was not. Jiraiya could freely use his in battle while Minato's was completely unfeasible.




> More chakra than an Uzumaki with Kurama's chakra constantly seeping into his own chakra pool? We talking about the same blond Uzumaki who can maintain hundreds of clones for an entire day _without_ tapping into his Biju's chakra? Ha, good one.


...who said 'more chakra? Jiraiya has _comparable_ chakra to Naruto at that time. Jiraiya had massive reserves of stamina compared to most shinobi, a full 5 in the stat (just like Naruto). 

Stop underrating Jiraiya man. 


> Btw:
> 
> 
> 
> You realize Minato fits this criteria too don't you?


If he did, he could maintain said Sage Mode longer than a single second. All Minato has the _bare minimum_ amount of chakra for Sage Mode, which is why his isn't battle worthy or usable.




> Mustn't have been adept in using them if he didn't incorporate them in his battle to the death against Pain.


Or Kishimoto hadn't thought about them yet but decided Jiraiya had them. Better than Minato who can't use them at all.




> So can every other Sage in the verse.


So how is he lacking here?




> And you said it here, exactly.
> 
> Having the same abilities doesn't equate to performing them on the same level as someone better than you in managing what allows you to utilize those skills in the first place.


But its still better what Minato can accomplish with his Sage Mode. It doesn't matter if Minato could enter Perfect Sage Mode, for Minato, his was simply unusable. Took too long for him to gather the natural energy, and he couldn't maintain it. Jiraiya? He could gather the natural energy, just not perfectly balance it, and use it in battle with or without Fukasaku and Shima.

Why do you think Minato said 'Just like Jiraiya-sensei' instead of 'Just like myself'? That's a clue that Minato's Sage Mode, despite being perfect, is inferior. Remember, Sage Mode is just a tool, a jutsu, a less perfect version can beat a perfect version. Its no different than a Sharingan beating a Mangekyo Sharingan.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 17, 2015)

> If he did, he could maintain said Sage Mode longer than a single second. All Minato has the bare minimum amount of chakra for Sage Mode, which is why his isn't battle worthy or usable.


Edo Minato had the chakra to warp a Juubidama (which dwarfed Gyuki and his Tailed Beast Balls) kilometers away, as well as the entire shinobi alliance simultaneously. Kurama inside of him might have contributed to this, but he wasn't in KCM when he warped the Juubidama. 

Edo Minato's issue with SM wasn't chakra based, it was most certainly his inexperience with it (he probably did not practice long enough in the mode).


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## Kai (Apr 17, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He could arguably maintain it with the help of Ma/Pa.


I'm sure Minato considered this many times, but it obviously wasn't a practical option in his view.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 17, 2015)

Kai said:


> I'm sure Minato considered this many times, but it obviously wasn't a practical option in his view.


I'd have to agree, though to be frank he clearly did not need SM as he had KCM/BM capabilities, as well as already being High-kage in Base, and he would only need to stay in the mode long enough to deliver a kill blow (which is what he attempted against Jubidara) against a Juubi Jinchuriki, that taking only a sheer second for someone like Minato.

We just have to consider the possibility that he felt he didn't need to be in SM until the very moment he realized only Senjutsu works against Juubi Jinchuriki, by which point he only had one arm and his KCM form with access to both arms was inadequate in landing an attack on Jubito, so why would his 1-armed SM form be adequate?

We also have to consider the fact they were facing Juubi Jinchuriki, Ma/Pa would be in considerable danger being on the shoulders of one of the main individuals combating those powerful beings, Minato may have had great respect for the elder toads. On top of that, Minato was an Edo, so it's quite possible Ma/Pa simply could not fuse with him as he was no longer a living entity, and he would have been capable of taking risks that living beings could not (as he is already dead and can regenerate). He also might not have known Ma/Pa well enough to even consider that, because quite frankly Jiraiya could have been the one to begin teaching him Sage Mode. Summoning Ma/Pa is something that even Jiraiya was apologetic about, having been lectured by Ma/Pa that he should have known how to maintain it on his own by that point, meaning they probably aren't summoned often by anyone (could be that only Jiraiya can summon them). 

There's a lot of factors really, another of which being Ma/Pa were signature summons of Jiraiya which allowed him to attain Sage Mode, and as such the author wanted to keep it that way.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2015)

jiriaya was a better sage mode user than minato
while minato could perfectly balance the 3 chakra natures due to being a boss and being too skilled
he didnt have the stamina for it. i.e chakra capacity

jiriaya being less skilled couldnt perfect it but had the body for it

jiriaya is simply more battle ready with Sm than minato 

naruto
hashirama
kabuto
jiraiya
minato


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 17, 2015)

So many myths and false statements here, it's shocking. People need to start providing evidence for their claims. I'm on my phone right now so I can't go in depth.

Proof of Minato not having the stamina for sm. You can't even use sm unless you have enormous chakra, so enough of these lies.

The person who lied and said jiraya can maintain it without the toads, come forward and present your proof.

Minato has a contract with the toads, Fukasaku trained him, Minato most definitely can summon the toads. Whether he ever felt the need to is something else entirrely.'Minato couldn't against Madara because he needed 2 arms for that, not to mention that would put them in serious danger. Let's not forget that fusing with toads is one of the first things Fuksaku teaches.

Also proof of Minatos time limit? There is no statement in the manga where Minatos sm duration is said. May I remind you all that sm can me cancelled/'released by the user. So inb4 "oh but he was out ofmssge mode after". That's rubbish, not to mention off panel.

I lol when people say jiraya sm is combat ready. That makes zero sense. Learn what combat ready means. If you can't access it without a long summoning process, then that is not combat ready. Honestly, Minatos eyes is proof enough that he did better than jiraya.


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## Bonly (Apr 17, 2015)

Overall wise I'd rank them as: 

Kabuto
Hashi
Naruto(before he got the Sage's power up)
Minato 
Jiraiya


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> So many myths and false statements here, it's shocking. People need to start providing evidence for their claims. I'm on my phone right now so I can't go in depth.
> 
> Proof of Minato not having the stamina for sm. You can't even use sm unless you have enormous chakra, so enough of these lies.
> 
> ...



minato inability to maintain SM for more than a few pages. indicates its a stamina issue vs a skill issue. since kishi wanks his skill to above and beyond levels

jiriaya can obviously use Sm without the toads 

Pa explained this already. jiriaya fused so he doesnt have to loose SM every 5 minutes. cuz recharging mid battle is impossible (or at least was for someone of jiriaya level)

In any case jiriaya got frog katas and minato does not. 

just saying


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## Wrath (Apr 17, 2015)

Jiraiya even mastered his inability to master Sage Mode, as seen when he exploited his frog transformation to improve his jumping ability.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 17, 2015)

There are only 5 sage mode users so 


Overall : 

1 - Hashirama
2 - Kabuto 
3 - Naruto / Minato (not sure how end of war arc SM naruto'd fare against Minato)
4 - Jiraiya

In terms of SM arsenal, style and the boost SM granted to the user : 

1  - Kabuto / Hashirama(assuming his Buddha can't be achieved otherwise)
2 - Naruto 
3 - Jiraiya
4 - Minato (Well Minato shouldn't even be on this list given his SM only lasts for a couple of seconds and takes too long to channel in otherwords it isn't much of a difference maker)


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> minato inability to maintain SM for more than a few pages. indicates its a stamina issue vs a skill issue. since kishi wanks his skill to above and beyond levels
> 
> jiriaya can obviously use Sm without the toads
> 
> ...


Do you really need me to show the scan of naruto running out of sage mode in a few pages back on turtle island. He deactivated it soon after just entering it because he no longer needed it. Minatos faded off panel so how can you come to any conclusion when you didn't see anything. All logic and common sense would indicate tat a true sage can last longer than an imperfect sage. If you are balancing all the energies perfectly then why would you run out faster than another sage who cannot keep spiritual, physical and nature energy in perfect harmony.

Assumption based on nothing. Minatos chakra by feats is greater than jirayas, so no.

Shima says to jiraya "you really need to learn to use sage mode on yer own" 
Jiraya says "unfortunately I'm only a tadpole compared to the two of you"
Why do people always ignore these statements.

Proof Minato doesn't have frog kata? I don't k ow where you are getting this from. As soon as Naruto balanced his nature energy perfectly he became a true sage and Fuksaku immediately taught him frog kata. Literally took Naruto a day. So why on earth would Minato not have learned it when he reached a further stage then jiraya.


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## Icegaze (Apr 17, 2015)

in DB minato isnt listed as a user

also if he was so good at it he would have used it in battle. however said he was no good at it and never used it while alive. dont ignore that either


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## Kyu (Apr 17, 2015)

This'll be my last extensive response for a couple days. Any repetitive statements of mine are a result of fatigue. 



> Yet Jiraiya's was usable while Minato's was not. Jiraiya could freely use his in battle while Minato's was completely unfeasible.



Due to two important factors you're failing to take into account:


The elder toad sages assisting him
Jiraiya actually trained in Sage Mode whereas Minato focused on a more speed based fighting-style



> ...who said 'more chakra? Jiraiya has _comparable_ chakra to Naruto at that time. Jiraiya had massive reserves of stamina compared to most shinobi, a full 5 in the stat (just like Naruto).



Jiraiya has comparable chakra to someone like Minato - both are resilient shinobi with no noteworthy lineage.

His chakra reserves aren't anywhere near a Jinchuriki with vastly superior genetics.


Naruto has displayed better stamina feats in _base_. When in comes the amount of chakra one has; there are only a select few shinobi who can rival Naruto - unfortunately Jiraiya isn't one of those people.




> Stop underrating Jiraiya man.



Of course someone who's wanking him would come to such a conclusion.



> If he did, he could maintain said Sage Mode longer than a single second. All Minato has the _bare minimum_ amount of chakra for Sage Mode, which is why his isn't battle worthy or usable.



Selective reading at its finest.

Was never said or alluded to be an insufficient amount of chakra. He even goes on to say his _lack of practice_ is the prime contributing component for this problem. Had that not have been the case, it would've never been brought up in that context.

Enormous amounts of chakra is necessary in order to draw upon natural energy which is a requirement to enter Sage Mode.

If Minato didn't have a massive chakra pool, _he wouldn't capable of accessing natural energy_ and melding it with his own chakra to create senjutsu.

It is what separates your regular ninja from those with potential to become a practitioner of the Sage Arts. 

Minato senjutsu setback isn't about chakra quantity. Period.



> Or Kishimoto hadn't thought about them yet but decided Jiraiya had them. Better than Minato who can't use them at all.


 
Featless frog katas aren't on par with someone with actual feats and higher on the food chain from a portrayal standpoint.



> So how is he lacking here?



Inferior sensing in comparison to Naruto's.




FlamingRain said:


> _That's_ not going to be a time issue for any Hiraishin user-



By Minato's standards it would be - a man notorious for his speed and ending fights in a swift and efficient manner isn't going to waste so much as a second gathering NE if a situation doesn't necessitate for him to be in Sage Mode - especially when he rarely uses summons to begin with. 

The reason Jiraiya doesn't automatically exit out of Sage Mode is because he trained at combating such a weakness - something Naruto stated is entirely possible.




> Minato's issue is that he can't _knead the natural energy with his own Chakra_ *at a fast enough rate* to maintain the balance necessary for the transformation for more than a short time,



Correct, it is a time issue(again, from Minato's point of view), as previously stated.




> That's the problem _with *or* without_ Ryōsei no Jutsu, because in that Fukasaku and Shima are only drawing in the energy for the user to knead, they don't do the actual kneading themselves. If they did, Jiraiya wouldn't have to worry about producing frog-like features for the same reason Minato wouldn't have to worry about his transformation wearing off quickly.



However, ryōsei no jutsu provides Minato with the means to sustain SM for an indefinite amount of time so long as he doesn't expend natural energy on senjutsu-enhanced techniques. In _base_ his physical prowess already exceeds his fellow toad sages bar strength and durability. In no world is he weaker than those two in terms of combat ability on an equal playing field - hence his placement on my list.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> in DB minato isnt listed as a user
> 
> also if he was so good at it he would have used it in battle. however said he was no good at it and never used it while alive. dont ignore that either



Shima also isn't listed as a user. And she's a senjutsu veteran sooo. Sasuke and Kakashi aren't listed as perfect susanoo users either, kabuto isn't listed as a summoner. I could go o, this databook was clearly rushed, has good information but plenty is missing.

Also one of the translators "I think turrin" said frog kata users are listed as Naruto, Jiraya, Fukasaku and "OTHERS!". So that doesn't rule out shima and fukasaku.

He did use it in battle though, he used it a against a Juubi Jinchuuriki with Rikudo power. Managed it against one of the most powerful beings in the entire manga. I didn't ignore it, jiraya said he was sucked compared to the elder toads, Shima said he can't use it without them. Fukasaku said way back that senjutsu is useless in battle and risky, nothing we didn't already know.

Simple summoning jutsu fixes Minatos problems. Naruto couldn't do this becuase of the ninetails. Minato wasn't a Jinchuuriki before so that problem didn't affect him. Amphibian technique for the win.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2015)

Minato and Jiraiya are like two sides of the same coin as far as mastery goes. Jiriaya can sustain the mode for an extremely long period of time and has developed various techniques that make use of Senjutsu; however he needs time to summon the elder-toads and enter the mode, because his balancing of the three energies are not perfect. Minato on the other hand can't sustain the mode for long and seemingly does not have mastery of any specific Senjutsu techniques, but since his balancing is perfect he can enter the mode much quicker. I don't think ether of there mastery is better than the other, but for practicality, sake if Jiraiya reaches Sennin Modo, he enjoys a bigger power boost than if Minato reaches Sennin Modo, though he will certainly have more issues reaching the mode than Minato.

Pain-Arc Naruto is better than both of them as he can reach the mode as quickly as Minato, but can sustain the mode longer naturally as well as w/ KB. Jiraiya still gets more out of his Sennin Modo if he reaches is than Naruto, because he doesn't need clones but the gap isn't as large as in the case of Minato, so overall Naruto is better in terms of skill. In terms of practicality it will again come down to whether Jiraiya can achieve the mode or not.

Kabuto is the opposite side of the Naruto coin, as his Sennin Modo can be achieved quicker, but not as quickly as Naruto's, but once he's in Sennin Modo he can sustain his as easily as Jiraiya can w/o needing clones. Due to this like in Jiraiya's case if he reaches Sennin Modo, his is practicality wise better than Naruto's.

Beyond them we just start getting into the God Sennin Modo users we get Hashirama who can enter Sennin Modo as quickly as Naruto, but he can sustain his as long as Jiriaya/Kabuto. So he's the best of both worlds, but still falls short compared to Hagoromo and Godruto who have the ascended Rikudo-Sennin Modo, and both of those fall behind Naruto's Final Sennin Modo that absorbs all the natural energy in the world.

So basically I'd list them this way

Skill

1) Naruto [Sasuke vs Naruto Final Duel]
2) Godruto/Hagoromo
3) Hashirama
4) Kabuto/SM-Naruto
5) Jiriaya/Minato

Practicality
1) Naruto [Sasuke vs Naruto Final Duel]
2) Godruto/Hagoromo
3) Hashirama/Jiraiya/Kabuto [If they obtain SM]
4) SM-Naruto
5) Minato


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 17, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> So many myths and false statements here, it's shocking. People need to start providing evidence for their claims. I'm on my phone right now so I can't go in depth.


You're showing off a a lot of myths.


> Proof of Minato not having the stamina for sm. You can't even use sm unless you have enormous chakra, so enough of these lies.


Minato doesn't have the stamina to maintain Sage Mode longer than a single second. He couldn't use it in life.


> The person who lied and said jiraya can maintain it without the toads, come forward and present your proof.


Naruto's Sage Mode training. Fukasaku said Jiraiya could enter Sage Mode with or without the toads. Instead of bashing Jiraiya, why do you ignore Minato saying his reasons for not using Sage Mode in life?


> Minato has a contract with the toads, Fukasaku trained him, Minato most definitely can summon the toads. Whether he ever felt the need to is something else entirrely.'Minato couldn't against Madara because he needed 2 arms for that, not to mention that would put them in serious danger. Let's not forget that fusing with toads is one of the first things Fuksaku teaches.


No. He didn't need 'two arms' for the summon. Amphibian Technique just wouldn't have helped him. His Sage Mode, by his own admission SUCKED. Why are you making it out better than it actually WAS?


> Also proof of Minatos time limit? There is no statement in the manga where Minatos sm duration is said. May I remind you all that sm can me cancelled/'released by the user. So inb4 "oh but he was out ofmssge mode after". That's rubbish, not to mention off panel.


His Sage Mode activates and then attacks Madara. He gets countered and injured, and his Sage Mode poofs away. Quite clear he can't maintain it for long.

Why are you ignoring what Minato even said about his own Sage Mode?


> I lol when people say jiraya sm is combat ready. That makes zero sense. Learn what combat ready means. If you can't access it without a long summoning process, then that is not combat ready. Honestly, Minatos eyes is proof enough that he did better than jiraya.


Do you even remember WHY Jiraiya uses the summoning process? So his Sage Mode is indefinite. Jiraiya can maintain his own Sage Mode for as long as Naruto could initially. He could enter Sage Mode without the toad's help. Minato? By his own admission his Sage Mode takes way too long, and he can't maintain it for long on screen. And Jiraiya could use several Senjutsu techniques, Minato couldn't.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Due to two important factors you're failing to take into account:
> 
> 
> The elder toad sages assisting him
> Jiraiya actually trained in Sage Mode whereas Minato focused on a more speed based fighting-style


Which makes Jiraiya a better Sage despite Minato having a more Perfect Sage Mode. 




> Jiraiya has comparable chakra to someone like Minato - both are resilient shinobi with no noteworthy lineage.


Fukasaku said Jiraiya has comparable chakra to Naruto. He has a 5 in the stat. What's wrong with Jiraiya being a stamina beast, why is it so insulting he can't be as good as one of his students in that area and better than Minato in Senjutsu? You act like I'm spitting on Minato's grave and insulting Naruto by pointing these things out.


> His chakra reserves aren't anywhere near a Jinchuriki with vastly superior genetics.


Manga says your wrong. Jiraiya was comparable to Naruto's chakra levels at the time, which were just 4 times as much as someone like Kakashi.



> Naruto has displayed better stamina feats in _base_. When in comes the amount of chakra one has; there are only a select few shinobi who can rival Naruto - unfortunately Jiraiya isn't one of those people.


Why are you applying a later Naruto to the Naruto we got post-Futon training? Someone with just four times as much chakra as Kakashi? Fukasaku said that Jiraiya has massive quantities of chakra, comparable to Naruto himself. Is that really so hard to accept?





> Of course someone who's wanking him would come to such a conclusion.


How the hell am I wanking Jiraiya? Even Minato was impressed by his master's power, wished to fight him, and even said Naruto inherited _Jiraiya's_ Sage Mode instead of his own.




> Selective reading at its finest.
> 
> Was never said or alluded to be an insufficient amount of chakra. He even goes on to say his _lack of practice_ is the prime contributing component for this problem. Had that not have been the case, it would've never been brought up in that context.


Then why did his Sage Mode fizzle out after *one* use?


> Enormous amounts of chakra is necessary in order to draw upon natural energy which is a requirement to enter Sage Mode.
> 
> If Minato didn't have a massive chakra pool, _he wouldn't capable of accessing natural energy_ and melding it with his own chakra to create senjutsu.


Uh I'm not denying that Minato has massive reserves of chakra compared to most shinobi. What I'm saying he has the bare minimum required for Sage Mode. There's a difference Kyu.


> It is what separates your regular ninja from those with potential to become a practitioner of the Sage Arts.
> 
> Minato senjutsu setback isn't about chakra quantity. Period.


Then why was he unable to maintain it longer than single second if not for his reserves being smaller than necessary to do so?




> Featless frog katas aren't on par with someone with actual feats and higher on the food chain from a portrayal standpoint.


If Jiraiya can use Frog Katas, it means he's a superior user of Sage Mode than Minato near automatically. Why are you so desperate on putting Jiraiya down? Is it really so insulting that Jiraiya could be better than Minato in one area?




> Inferior sensing in comparison to Naruto's.


Prove it was. show proof that Jiraiya's was inferior to Naruto's (Pain Arc).


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## FlamingRain (Apr 18, 2015)

Kyu said:


> By Minato's standards it would be.



Put his complaint into the proper context and _no_ it wouldn't. That speech Madara was giving Obito while Minato and the others were just standing there lasted longer than the amount of time Jiraiya needed to remain undisturbed to summon Ma and Pa, yet Minato didn't do it, so...



> The reason Jiraiya doesn't automatically exit out of Sage Mode is because he trained at combating such a weakness - something Naruto stated is entirely possible.



It doesn't follow from Naruto's statement that _Jiraiya_, who can fuse with Ma and Pa unlike that Naruto, practiced combating the time limit. It's not like before Naruto said that he had a problem of automatically exiting Sage Mode, he could already sustain it for several minutes, he just wanted to sustain it _longer_.



> Correct, it is a time issue(again, from Minato's point of view), as previously stated.
> 
> However, ryōsei no jutsu provides Minato with the means to sustain SM for an indefinite amount of time so long as he doesn't expend natural energy on senjutsu-enhanced techniques.



You didn't actually read what I said, did you?

I said the issue is the _kneading_ of the natural energy with one's own Chakra, not simply the _amount_ of natural energy; those are two different things _(1)_ _(2)_. Minato states that it takes him too long to make that Chakra, not draw in the natural energy. It doesn't matter whether or not Fukasaku and Shima are on his shoulders gathering natural energy when his issue is not being able to knead it with his own Chakra at the proper rate.

Plus Sage Mode itself is a product of natural energy being expended alongside your normal Chakra, meaning it isn't possible to sustain it _without_ expending natural energy. Your body "activates" after which the transformation itself _automatically_ empowers your techniques. Minato said "Senjutsu" when he attacked, not "Senpō"; that was a normal Rasengan simply used while in Sage Mode.


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## Icegaze (Apr 18, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Shima also isn't listed as a user. And she's a senjutsu veteran sooo. Sasuke and Kakashi aren't listed as perfect susanoo users either, kabuto isn't listed as a summoner. I could go o, this databook was clearly rushed, has good information but plenty is missing.
> 
> Also one of the translators "I think turrin" said frog kata users are listed as Naruto, Jiraya, Fukasaku and "OTHERS!". So that doesn't rule out shima and fukasaku.
> 
> ...



Perhaps he was only able to pull in SM chakra at those quantities because he was an ET with infinite levels of chakra

No reason for him to never have used it an actual combat otherwise

considering it would have been massively useful against the kyuubi and obito. 

jiriaiya trained more at it. even if his version was less perfect that just means he is less skilled

this is no different from naruto being able to use FRS. yet his rasengan is weaker than minato's

same thing here. minato version is more advanced. However due to the fact, that he can neither sustain it through naruto method or jiriaya's 

he comes off as the worst user. simply put


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 18, 2015)

Sage Art Amphibian technique (databook 4).
Fusion of a Sage Toad and a part of the (user’s) body; a jutsu that maintains combat-readiness. Dividing the roles of gathering Natural Energy “Stillness” and performing in combat “Motion”, using Sage Mode to its maximum practical use.

First Appearance: Volume 46, [Chapter 375] p. 47
[Anime Appearance: Naruto Shippuden Episode 131]

[The two roles are split/coordinated between the user and the Sage Toad - *Fukasaku gathers Natural Energy while Naruto engages in combat.]*

The guy above me says it doesn't matter if Minato summons the toads because he can't gather natural energy fast enough  

Yet doesn't know how amphibian technique works. Minato won't be the one gathering nature energy, the toads will. 

Also Minato called it his senpo rasengan, read the manga again.



Icegaze said:


> Perhaps he was only able to pull in SM chakra at those quantities because he was an ET with infinite levels of chakra
> 
> No reason for him to never have used it an actual combat otherwise
> 
> ...


Infinite levels of chakra don't matter. You still possess the same capacity of chakra as you did alive. It just replenishes faster as an edo. No matter how much chakra you have, if you don't balance it properly with the nature energy, then sage mode will fail. So infi te chakra doesn't change anything.
.

Minato said he hasn't used it "much" in real combat. But he never said never. "Much" meaning he used it a couple times. Jiraya didn't use sm much either because he didn't like his appearance. Even when he summoned the elder toads they said long time no see.

People always say this and it annoys the hell out of me. First of all no he didn't need it, did you not see how easily he beat Obito.? Secondly tell me where Minato had the time? Wife is dying and running out of time, and the village is close to destruction. You telling me he had time, Minato said himself he can't waste time and needs to hurry back to the village.  Then he stopped the nine tails with his own power and sealed it. Why would you need sage mode for that?

Contradiction much. Just said jiraya is less skilled, is that not the point I've been trying to make all this time.

Not a good example, rasengan and RFS are not the same techniques. We are comparing sage mode and sage mode. A true sage vs an imperfect sage.

And again where did it say Minato can't sustain it using jirayas methods? I just posted the databook entry, it's a technique that maintains combat readiness for maximum practical use. Which fukaksu would have done while training minato.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 18, 2015)

I haven't even posted how Minato can enter sage mode instantly. Like he did in canon.


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## Icegaze (Apr 18, 2015)

ok rasen minato is better
u happy now?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 18, 2015)

Top5 strongest that can use sm:
Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Kabuto
Jiraiya

Top5 best sm users ( who uses sm better in combat and generally )

Naruto 
Hashirama
Kabuto
Jiraiya
Minato


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## FlamingRain (Apr 18, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The guy above me says it doesn't matter if Minato summons the toads because he can't gather natural energy fast enough



No...



FlamingRain said:


> I said the issue is *the kneading of the natural energy with one's own Chakra, not simply the amount of natural energy;* those are two different things _(1)_ _(2)_. Minato states that *it takes him too long to make that Chakra, not draw in the natural energy.*





> Also Minato called it his senpo rasengan



He said "Senjutsu", not "Senpō" _(1)_. They use different characters. 仙法 is "Senpō", Minato used 仙術 there, which is "Senjutsu".


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 18, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> I haven't even posted how Minato can enter sage mode instantly. Like he did in canon.


And then it lasted for just as long. By Minato's own admission it takes too long to balance the Sage Chakra, and it immediately fizzles out after one use.


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