# Sakura and Tsunade vs Konan and Mei



## Senzumaki (May 30, 2014)

Open field
Intent to kill
50 meters
No restrictions


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 30, 2014)

As we've covered Sakura and Tsunade by extension are bad matchups for Konan especially if she's got her paper ocean. They have no way of reliably killing her other than Katsuya acid and she can possibly suffocate them. Mei is handled easily enough, they just need one hit.


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## Bonly (May 30, 2014)

Tsuande and her clone summon one tenth Katsuyu. GG folks


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## OG Appachai (May 31, 2014)

Konan has paper ocean prep then i say her and mei wins but OP made location open field so...meh whatever. OP also didnt include intel either so i guess we gotta go with manga knowledge. 

Konan and mei win imo, konan can take out sakura easily despite byakugou with her mix of paper blades mixed with paper bombs plus she can mummify her in paper that shouldnt be too much trouble, Mei can at least survive against tsunade by using mid to long range jutsu to keep her at bay until konan comes to help, They overwhelm tsunade's regen imo.

Konan and mei high diff.

sidenote: all this happens without the slug though


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## Senzumaki (May 31, 2014)

OG Appachai said:


> Konan has paper ocean prep then i say her and mei wins but OP made location open field so...meh whatever. OP also didnt include intel either so i guess we gotta go with manga knowledge.
> 
> Konan and mei win imo, konan can take out sakura easily despite byakugou with her mix of paper blades mixed with paper bombs plus she can mummify her in paper that shouldnt be too much trouble, Mei can at least survive against tsunade by using mid to long range jutsu to keep her at bay until konan comes to help, They overwhelm tsunade's regen imo.
> 
> ...


They will summon 10% katsuyu for help you know.

Konan has no moves that can remotely put Sakura down. Maddara compared tsunade regeneration to that of hashirama's meaning they hold the same power. Maddara tanked multiple attacks from the biju. saiken acid mist and gaara sand bullets being the strongest ones he tanked without sassuno via regeneration *how little damage a ridiculously smaller Chibaku tensei* tsunade regeneration = sakura's regeneration. Konan can only wish to hurt her.

Mei gets overwhelmed by katsuyu and tsunade.

Tsunade and Sakura mid diff at best


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## wooly Eullerex (May 31, 2014)

Sakura would get taken out very quickly w/o knowledge on  Konan, leaving Tsunade to fight a losing battle w/ ''only'' 5% katsyuu.

Mei ninjutsu can hold the clones while Konan attacks Tsunade. the duo beat the medics w/ mid difficulty


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## Senzumaki (May 31, 2014)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> Sakura would get taken out very quickly w/o knowledge on  Konan, leaving Tsunade to fight a losing battle w/ ''only'' 5% katsyuu.
> 
> Mei ninjutsu can hold the clones while Konan attacks Tsunade. the duo beat the medics w/ mid difficulty



Problem is 10% katsuyu will be here and Konan has nothing to put Sakura down


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## Kyu (May 31, 2014)

Konan has to rely on mei to inflict any major damage to Team 1. Unsure, but I see the Medics winning if they play their cards right. 10% Katsuyu is the game changer.

Tsunade & Konan kill their partners for being terrible.


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## trance (May 31, 2014)

> No restrictions



Does Konan have Paper Ocean prepped?


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## wooly Eullerex (May 31, 2014)

Senzumaki said:


> Problem is 10% katsuyu will be here and Konan has nothing to put Sakura down



no, I think Konan can put her Sakura down w/ the featless paper stuffs before they decide to use the combo summon.


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## MusubiKazesaru (May 31, 2014)

Kyu said:


> Tsunade & Konan kill their partners for being terrible.



Sounds about right


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## OG Appachai (May 31, 2014)

Senzumaki said:


> They will summon 10% katsuyu for help you know.



Its out of character for tsunade or sakura to summon the slug if its not against other summons, in the beggining of a battle or for non healing purposes.. i doubt they would summon the slug if its not a dire situation. Its just highly unlikely.



Senzumaki said:


> Konan has no moves that can remotely put Sakura down.



immobilizing her with paper thus suffocating her or cutting her head off.



Senzumaki said:


> Maddara compared tsunade regeneration to that of hashirama's meaning they hold the same power. Maddara tanked multiple attacks from the biju. saiken acid mist and gaara sand bullets being the strongest ones he tanked without sassuno via regeneration Kirin tsunade regeneration = sakura's regeneration. Konan can only wish to hurt her.



Those panels are a false  representation of whatever youre trying to get across. First of all, regeneration does not equal durability put any other ninja in the situation with byakugou and they would get blown to pieces from the first hit. Second of all Madara has hashirama's sage mode which boosts his durability to unbelievable levels. And third, you cannot tank with regeneration, only heal from it after the damage if done.

Now what do we get from this? You trying to show that byakugou gives durability which is just plain false,  you trying to give sakura madara's sage mode durability feats which is just......weird, and you trying to imply just because sakura has byakugou she now can tank tail swypes from bijuu just like madara......

Dude you're comparing sakura to madara.....I have no words for this



Senzumaki said:


> Mei gets overwhelmed by katsuyu and tsunade.


Tsunade will not summon the slug against a singular opponent like that, its out of character. And mei can hold tsunade off with suiton and yoton untill konan is done with sakura.



Senzumaki said:


> Tsunade and Sakura mid diff at best



konan and mei high diff at best


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## ARGUS (May 31, 2014)

[FONT=''Book Antiqua"]Konan and Mei win this,,,,[/FONT]


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## DaVizWiz (May 31, 2014)

I'd argue Tsunade soloing, she alone can summon 5% Katsuya which is more than enough to splatter them both with an ocean of acid. 

No restrictions does not mean prep for paper ocean, especially considering they aren't on an ocean for paper to lay beneath. How do you put an ocean of paper tags on an open field terrain? Ridiculous notion.....


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Jun 2, 2014)

> Its out of character for tsunade or sakura to summon the slug if its not against other summons, in the beggining of a battle or for non healing purposes.. i doubt they would summon the slug if its not a dire situation. Its just highly unlikely.



Common misconception. Tsunade initiated the boss summon battle in part one, it may be OoC for Sakura; but she will do as she is told.





> immobilizing her with paper thus suffocating her or cutting her head off.



Konan has not been shown to utilize this against Kage level opponents, therefore OoC. Moreover, this may reflect her lack of confidence in this method as well.  

If she approaches either of them in a flurry of paper she will either be dissolved by Zesshi Nensan  or get blown away by this:



Also, please explain how Sakura or Tsunade will be caught by a paper assault from Konan when the former, who is arguably a less able evasion specialist managed this:


*Spoiler*: __ 











I am not saying that they will be impossible to hit. They will be subject to scrapes and injuries, although they are unlikely to be fatal or debilitating. 



> And mei can hold tsunade off with suiton and yoton untill konan is done with sakura.



This is not a Sakura vs Konan or Tsunade vs Mei fight. This is a team battle. Tsunade was a member of Team Hiruzen for approximately 30 years before they disbanded, she realises the importance of collaboration and will exploit this. Divide and conquer is a common tactic, with Tsunade and Sakura's analytical prowess they will no doubt recognise this and prevent it from happening.


*Spoiler*: __ 









****I would outline the conditions under which Tsunade and Sakura will triumph, but I don't want to leave a block of text. I will wait for you response and counter it. I can see this as a high difficulty win for Tsunade and Mei, if that.****


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## LostSelf (Jun 2, 2014)

^Wasn't Chiyo controlling her there? Because Nor Sakura or Tsunade have ever shown to be highly evasive, and have ever shown to rely on their healings to counter attack.


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 2, 2014)

Mei >= Tsunade
Konan > Sakura

Katsuyus acid is slow and Konan is quicker so that's not an option


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## Veracity (Jun 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> ^Wasn't Chiyo controlling her there? Because Nor Sakura or Tsunade have ever shown to be highly evasive, and have ever shown to rely on their healings to counter attack.



Though it directly says "without my assistance ."? 

Tsunade and Sakura are medical legends. It's a given that they are extremely agile and it doesn't have to be shown directly on panel . Just think about the opponents Tsunade has battled? She through herself in front of Oros attacks, then proceeded to be untouched and rape him. And against Madaa Uchiha most ninja are gonna get killed instantly. You can be "evasive" and still get hit against him considering how powerful he is. Being evasive against a Sussano user is fruitless. It's more logical to tank attacks and plant attacks into Sussano. 

So I think it's more of a "not having a chance to show said skill " that makes Tsuande not seem evasive as opposed to not actually being evasive.


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## Skywalker (Jun 3, 2014)

I see Tsunade and Sakura taking this. Konan is vaporized and Mei is just..yeah

Regardless it ends in sex.


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## trance (Jun 3, 2014)

Skywalker said:


> Regardless it ends in sex.



Take out Sakura and this is the perfect answer.


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## Bonly (Jun 3, 2014)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> Common misconception. Tsunade initiated the boss summon battle in part one, it may be OoC for Sakura; but she will do as she is told.



To be fair the other person she was fighting had a summoning of his own which pretty much goes with what he was saying, though I don't agree with it being OoC.



> Konan has not been shown to utilize this against Kage level opponents, therefore OoC.



I hope you're mocking him otherwise that's just terrible.




> Also, please explain how Sakura or Tsunade will be caught by a paper assault from Konan when the former, who is arguably a less able evasion specialist managed this:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Just to note, everything you posted in the spoiler above was not due to her own skill but the skill of Chiyo since Chiyo had her chakra strings on Sakura on all of the panels above.





Likes boss said:


> Though it directly says "without my assistance ."?



And to be fair damn near everything he or she posted was indeed Sakura being controlled, only the last one would hold weight.



> Tsunade and Sakura are medical legends. *It's a given that they are extremely agile* and it doesn't have to be shown directly on panel . Just think about the opponents Tsunade has battled?
> 
> So I think it's more of a "not having a chance to show said skill " that makes Tsuande not seem evasive as opposed to not actually being evasive.



You could try to say this for Tsunade since she hasn't been in many on panel fights/rumbles/brawls/ whatever you'd call it. Sakura on the other hand has went up against multiple people(even though a bit of them were quite short as well as be it apart of a team or not) and she hasn't shown to be agile most of the time. So far the best she's shown is getting use to Sasori's attack patterns after fighting for a while when Chiyo's control faded over time and she when she dodge that Zetsu clone that looked like Neji. Other then that Sakura hasn't shown to be very agile.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 3, 2014)

Bonly, Sakura reacted to Sasori's final blitz on her own, jumping into his blitzing path without a reaction.

She also destroyed his Kazekage puppet with her own striking speed, where he again, could not react, regardless of the fact she surprised him. 

But beyond that, current sakura shunshin'd to Judara's position before current naruto and sasuke could stop her [1], jump in front, or come to her aid. Not only did she blitz to his position before they could aid, she also threw a punch before Sasuke, who literally chose to blitz in before she threw the punch, could arrive at her position [2], [3].

And don't pull "they were too surprised to do anything" argument, they should have been able to jump in front of her if she was slow as soon as she started moving.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> ^Wasn't Chiyo controlling her there? Because Nor Sakura or Tsunade have ever shown to be highly evasive,



Their lack of feats in that area doesn't disregard the canon fact that they _are_ evasive. Tsunade teaching Sakura the basics of anticipating attacks and then dodging them accordingly grants her a large improvement from a 1 in taijutsu in the Databook, to a _3_. She obviously grew in that area. With just that level of skill Sakura was capable of dodging attacks from Sasori's _puppet army_ (even ones she couldn't see coming), as well as predict and counter Sasori's Iron Sand attacks, which were by no means slow ether. [1] [2]

 I should add, given that Chiyo's chakra strings were only _attached to her back and head_ any evasive manoeuvres Sakura performed with her arms or legs were largely of her _own_ doing. In scenarios where Sakura was in mid-air and couldn't dodge, she was still capable of reacting to and blocking fast attacks [3] Also, Chiyo was incapable of protecting Sakura from Sasori's _Iron Sand: World Order_ which had a huge AoE and left little room for Sakura to evade, but somehow she managed to come out with only _scratches and cuts_. That would suggest she was capable of moving her body enough to avoid taking any critical hits. 

Now, what's interesting is that Chiyo previously noted that _high evasive skill_ can only come  from having a lot of _combat experience_. Chiyo's evasive skills are thus so great that she can effortlessly dodge all of Sasori's high-speed senbon attacks. However, perhaps what is even more notable than that is even with her high evasive and anticipatory skills, Chiyo only has a 4.5 in taijutsu in the databook. Tsunade, on the other hand, has a _5_, and so her evasive skills should in theory be even greater than Chiyo's. Like Chiyo, Tsunade has a huge amount of combat experience, and hence it would only make sense that the things she drilled into Sakura - to predict foes attacks and move accordingly, are things she can do with significantly more finesse as a result. 

Even as far as feats go, it has certainly been implied that Tsunade is proficient in evasion. Even after being out battle for 20 years she was capable of _dodging an attack from Kabuto_. Kabuto was already faster than her (he had a 3.5 in speed), but when he took a soldier pill his speed saw an obvious increase (and we know from Kiba's match with Naruto that soldier pills give a speed boost). Furthermore, she attempted to dodge one of his Chakra Scalpel attacks later on, and the only reason she couldn't was because she had sustained injuries, and because Kabuto was so quick [5] I should add, when she was drunk she was capable of toying around with Naruto and repeatedly dodged and disarmed him in close quarters [6] Also, if Tsunade can throw herself _in the way_ of attacks, such as Orochimaru's _sword slashes_ or Madara's _katon projectiles_, it would only stand to reason that she could move herself _out of the way_ of those attacks too ie. _evade_ them.

Ultimately, it is irrefutable that Sakura and Tsunade are skilled at evasion. Against significantly faster opponents it is obviously impossible to evade their attacks, which is why they rely on Byakugou.



> and have ever shown to rely on their healings to counter attack.



Tsunade created the rule for medics to be skilled at evasion because _" if the medical ninja were to die, who is there to treat the team members? "_. However, the need for evading foes attacks becomes significantly less important whenever the medic can use Byakugou or even Sozou Saisei, because the chances of them dying are lowered _significantly_.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 3, 2014)

Before continuing, i should add that i, by no means believe they are rocks that will never dodge a thing. The point of the other post was to say that they are not more evasive than your average Jounin-Kage of same level if we follow the fact that they should still be more evasive considering they are front lines shinobi. And in this thread that they will be able to dodge always, considering that even Obito had troubles with Konan.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> Their lack of feats in that area doesn't disregard the canon fact that they _are_ evasive. Tsunade teaching Sakura the basics of anticipating attacks and then dodging them accordingly grants her a large improvement from a 1 in taijutsu in the Databook, to a _3_. She obviously grew in that area. With just that level of skill Sakura was capable of dodging attacks from Sasori's _puppet army_ (even ones she couldn't see coming), as well as predict and counter Sasori's Iron Sand attacks, which were by no means slow ether. [1] [2]​




The first scan you provided is not Sakura dodging attacks, is Sakura standing on Chiyo's puppets and throwing a weird ball at Sasori.

The second scan is her having less troubles dodging attacks from Sasori figuring out his attack pattern, it's easier for her to dodge if she knows the attack, and in the third scan she was already controlled by Chiyo.



> I should add, given that Chiyo's chakra strings were only
> 
> _attached to her back and head_ any evasive manoeuvres Sakura performed with her arms or legs were largely of her _own_ doing. In scenarios where Sakura was in mid-air and couldn't dodge, she was still capable of reacting to and blocking fast attacks [3] Also, Chiyo was incapable of protecting Sakura from Sasori's _Iron Sand: World Order_ which had a huge AoE and left little room for Sakura to evade, but somehow she managed to come out with only _scratches and cuts_. That would suggest she was capable of moving her body enough to avoid taking any critical hits.



Chiyo's strings were controlling her entire body like a puppet, and they were not only connected in her head and back, aside from that, you can see that Chiyo is helping her dodge. Sakura was not doing that on her own.

Every time there you see her blocking/dodging, you see Chiyo one panel before moving her strings. It's Chiyo making her block/dodge, not Sakura.



> Now, what's interesting is that Chiyo previously noted that _high evasive skill_ can only come  from having a lot of _combat experience_. Chiyo's evasive skills are thus so great that she can effortlessly dodge all of Sasori's high-speed senbon attacks. However, perhaps what is even more notable than that is even with her high evasive and anticipatory skills, Chiyo only has a 4.5 in taijutsu in the databook. Tsunade, on the other hand, has a _5_, and so her evasive skills should in theory be even greater than Chiyo's. Like Chiyo, Tsunade has a huge amount of combat experience, and hence it would only make sense that the things she drilled into Sakura - to predict foes attacks and move accordingly, are things she can do with significantly more finesse as a result.



She said to dodge those attacks (A puppeter's) you need to know how they behave. Combat experience was helping Chiyo know where Sasori could attack or where he placed a trap, therefore she was already prepared to counter that with her own traps. This doesn't have to do with general evasion skills in every fight there is. Also, evasion should be put with speed.



> Even as far as feats go, it has certainly been implied that Tsunade is proficient in evasion. Even after being out battle for 20 years she was capable of _dodging an attack from Kabuto_. Kabuto was already faster than her (he had a 3.5 in speed), but when he took a soldier pill his speed saw an obvious increase (and we know from Kiba's match with Naruto that soldier pills give a speed boost). Furthermore, she attempted to dodge one of his Chakra Scalpel attacks later on, and the only reason she couldn't was because she had sustained injuries, and because Kabuto was so quick [5] I should add, when she was drunk she was capable of toying around with Naruto and repeatedly dodged and disarmed him in close quarters [6] Also, if Tsunade can throw herself _in the way_ of attacks, such as Orochimaru's _sword slashes_ or Madara's _katon projectiles_, it would only stand to reason that she could move herself _out of the way_ of those attacks too ie. _evade_ them.



I am not trying to discredit Tsunade here though, but dodging one attack doesn't make her skilled at evasion as she only had do jump, everybody dodged attacks, some of them even in worse condition than her--Lee dodged Gaara's sand after suffering huge pain from the Lotus is one of a lot of examples there even though Lee was speedy and evasive. Danzo dodged Susano'os punch in his old age and probably had a lot of time without fighting. That was the only time she dodged Kabuto.

I don't think that countering Genin Naruto is a good feat, actually. And interception feats are not something you would take for granted. Lee intercepted Madara's black balls that not even two Kamui users were being able to counter, Gai did so as well and even took the damage. Tsunade and Ei reacted to lightspeed and intercepted Madara, Genin Naruto, injured and with a injured leg, intercepted the same Kabuto Tsunade couldn't from a distance [1] [2]. 



> Ultimately, it is irrefutable that Sakura and Tsunade are skilled at evasion. Against significantly faster opponents it is obviously impossible to evade their attacks, which is why they rely on Byakugou.



I do think they can evade, i just don't think they are more especial than the others of their level, who, should train in that regard as well as they meet much more dangers.



> Tsunade created the rule for medics to be skilled at evasion because _" if the medical ninja were to die, who is there to treat the team members? "_. However, the need for evading foes attacks becomes significantly less important whenever the medic can use Byakugou or even Sozou Saisei, because the chances of them dying are lowered _significantly_.


​
Indeed, they need to evade as they cannot just be 'rocks'. But the point of my point was directed to them not being hit by faster things than what they have tried to counter.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 3, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Before continuing, i should add that i, by no means believe they are rocks that will never dodge a thing. The point of the other post was to say that they are not more evasive than your average Jounin-Kage of same level if we follow the fact that they should still be more evasive considering they are front lines shinobi. And in this thread that they will be able to dodge always, considering that even Obito had troubles with Konan.



Most Jounin-Kage level of the same level don't have many, if any evasive feats, nor do they have more hype of actually being evasive as Tsunade and Sakura - taijutsu experts, do. So I'd argue they're more evasive than the majority of same level Jounin/Kage. 



> The first scan you provided is not Sakura dodging attacks, is Sakura standing on Chiyo's puppets and throwing a weird ball at Sasori.



Uhh . . no. Those are not Chiyo's puppets, those are all Sasori's puppets, and Sakura's jumping over their sword attacks. The only puppet that belongs to Chiyo is the one that isn't attacking her and she isn't dodging.



> The second scan is her having less troubles dodging attacks from Sasori figuring out his attack pattern, it's easier for her to dodge if she knows the attack,



Which shows that she's skilled enough to able to read attack patterns and dodge accordingly.



> and in the third scan she was already controlled by Chiyo.



Sakura rolled on the ground and used the momentum to to turn around and regain her balance - that is a movement  that Chiyo couldn't possibly have initiated with her chakra strings since she was limited to just pulling Sakura backwards and swerving her body in and out of the way of attacks.



> Chiyo's strings were controlling her entire body like a puppet, and they were not only connected in her head and back,



Ah, I guess I overlooked that panel. However, there are still other instances I brought up where Sakura was clearly dodging by herself.



> aside from that, you can see that Chiyo is helping her dodge. Sakura was not doing that on her own.



Sure, but she wasn't the one who allowed Sakura to dodge in _every single_ instance.



> Every time there you see her blocking/dodging, you see Chiyo one panel before moving her strings. It's Chiyo making her block/dodge, not Sakura.



Prove it. Chiyo obviously helps her to dodge _this_ and initially she helps her to dodge _this_, but there's no evidence that helped her to avoid any other Iron Sand attack, you're just assuming that without any basis.



> She said to dodge those attacks (A puppeter's) you need to know how they behave. Combat experience was helping Chiyo know where Sasori could attack or where he placed a trap, therefore she was already prepared to counter that with her own traps. This doesn't have to do with general evasion skills in every fight there is. Also, evasion should be put with speed.



She _also_ said Sasori had made changes to Hiruko and she was no longer familiar with all of his weapon additions [1] [2] Her ability to evade came primarily from her combat experience. She also didn't combat any of his traps with her own traps, she simply dodged.



> I am not trying to discredit Tsunade here though, but dodging one attack doesn't make her skilled at evasion as she only had do jump, everybody dodged attacks even in worse condition than her--Lee dodged Gaara's sand after suffering huge pain from the Lotus is one of a lot of examples there even though Lee was speedy and evasive. Danzo dodged Susano'os punch in his old age and probably had a lot of time without fighting. That was the only time she dodged Kabuto.



Even if Danzou was old, he was still in charge of root and was obviously not inexperienced since he was capable of out-manoeuvring Sasuke in taijutsu, and had even had Orochimaru experiment on him. Weightless base Lee was a) faster than Part I Tsunade, and b) Chuunin Exam Gaara's sand attacks weren't as fast as a pill-boosted Kabuto. Tsunade's ability to dodge Kabuto's ambush from below ground was obviously a testament of Tsunade's evasive abilities (just as Lee dodging Gaara's sand was a testament of his evasive abilities). 



> I don't think that countering Genin Naruto is a good feat, actually.



It's not so much that it's actually an impressive feat, but given that it is one of the first combat feats we actually see from Tsunade, and it's done while she's _drunk_, it seems fairly obvious that Kishimoto was trying to tell us that she's evasive. 



> And interception feats are not something you would take for granted. Lee intercepted Madara's black balls that not even two Kamui users were being able to counter,



Why are you generalising all interception feats as inaccurate? Take interception feats like you should any feat - on a case by case basis. There is absolutely no reason to assume the interception feats I brought up with Tsunade are inaccurate. We actually know when Tsunade started moving when she intercepted those attacks, hence they are viable. Gated-Lee started moving at an unspecified time (he said he started running towards Gai's direction when he saw him use _Midday Tiger_) 



> Tsunade and Ei reacted to lightspeed and intercepted Madara



I don't what you're referring to with Gai, but Tsunade and Ei did not react to light-speed  For a start a lightning bolt doesn't move anywhere near light speed, its slower. Secondly, while coming out of the lightning bolt and striking Muu and Madara immediately does show that they have impressive reflexes it doesn't mean they reacted to something that was lightning-speed. Madara was airborne when he was struck, so he obviously wasn't going to be able to move very fast and intercepting him was a lot easier than usual. 



> Genin Naruto, injured and with a injured leg, intercepted the same Kabuto Tsunade couldn't from a distance [1] [2].



Again, we have no idea when Naruto started moving, making this feat incomparable to ones I brought up regarding Tsunade. 



> I do think they can evade, i just don't think they are more especial than the others of their level, *who, should train in that regard as well as they meet much more dangers*.



You have no evidence, and are only assuming this for lack of a better argument. Not many shinobi train _extensively_ in evasion, very few have ever shown to do such a thing, and Tsunade and Sakura are among the few who did.



> Indeed, they need to evade as they cannot just be 'rocks'. But the point of my point was directed to them not being hit by faster things than what they have tried to counter.



I don't really understand what you're trying to get at it as your point here is poorly worded. If they cannot dodge something because it's too fast then they simply rely on Byakugou.​​


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## LostSelf (Jun 3, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Most Jounin-Kage level of the same level don't have many, if any evasive feats, nor do they have more hype of actually being evasive as Tsunade and Sakura - taijutsu experts, do. So I'd argue they're more evasive than the majority of same level Jounin/Kage.​




People like Gaara obviously don't rely on dodging because he never needed it, but if you compare Sakura and Tsunade with the likes of Kakashi, Gai, Sasuke, Deidara, Naruto , Kisame, etc you can clearly see a difference as they have better feats.

The same Onoki was able to touch six Susano'os without getting hit while Tsunade was badly injured.



> Uhh . . no. Those are not Chiyo's puppets, those are all Sasori's puppets, and Sakura's jumping over their sword attacks. The only puppet that belongs to Chiyo is the one that isn't attacking her and she isn't dodging.



My bad actually, she dodged those strikes.



> Which shows that she's skilled enough to able to read attack patterns and dodge accordingly.



When she finds the attacking patterns, Sasori was using the same pattern all over again. If she faces an opponent that doesn't have a single method of attack it's gonna be harder.



> Sakura rolled on the ground and used the momentum to to turn around and regain her balance - that is a movement  that Chiyo couldn't possibly have initiated with her chakra strings since she was limited to just pulling Sakura backwards and swerving her body in and out of the way of attacks.



Chiyo could have pulled her back before the big black thing fell and the radius of the blast could've make Sakura fall. At least is how i am interpreting it.




> Ah, I guess I overlooked that panel. However, there are still other instances I brought up where Sakura was clearly dodging by herself.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, but she wasn't the one who allowed Sakura to dodge in _every single_ instance.



After Chiyo controlled her is what i am seeing



> Prove it. Chiyo obviously helps her to dodge _this_ and initially she helps her to dodge _this_, but there's no evidence that helped her to avoid any other Iron Sand attack, you're just assuming that without any basis.



Sakura was helpess against the Kazekage's sand and was saved by Chiyo. If she couldn't dodge that by herself, i see no reason that she could've done it by herself after Chiyo controlled her. That's the basis.



> She _also_ said Sasori had made changes to Hiruko and she was no longer familiar with all of his weapon additions [1] [2] Her ability to evade came primarily from her combat experience. She also didn't combat any of his traps with her own traps, she simply dodged.



Indeed, he made changes. But Chiyo was still an experienced puppeter enough to figure out any change fast enough. Plus, she was talking about fighting another puppeter, this doesn't mean it's gonna be the same in every fight, especially with different kinds of enemies.



> Even if Danzou was old, he was still in charge of root and was obviously not inexperienced since he was capable of out-manoeuvring Sasuke in taijutsu, and had even had Orochimaru experiment on him. Weightless base Lee was a) faster than Part I Tsunade, and b) Chuunin Exam Gaara's sand attacks weren't as fast as a pill-boosted Kabuto. Tsunade's ability to dodge Kabuto's ambush from below ground was obviously a testament of Tsunade's evasive abilities (just as Lee dodging Gaara's sand was a testament of his evasive abilities).



 Yes, this says Tsunade can evade, wich i am agreeing on, what i don't see is that this feat puts her above everybody. Danzo was got an arm cut when he faced Sasuke in a direct clash, either way, those were just examples, there are plenty.



> It's not so much that it's actually an impressive feat, but given that it is one of the first combat feats we actually see from Tsunade, and it's done while she's _drunk_, it seems fairly obvious that Kishimoto was trying to tell us that she's evasive.


Or that Tsunade is still too superior to genin Naruto. A near dead Kimimaro countered and dodged better strikes than that, and against a serious Kyuubi Naruto, sure, he is powerful in CqC, but an experienced Shinobi won't have any troubles against a genin.



> Why are you generalising all interception feats as inaccurate? Take interception feats like you should any feat - on a case by case basis. There is absolutely no reason to assume the interception feats I brought up with Tsunade are inaccurate. We actually know when Tsunade started moving when she intercepted those attacks, hence they are viable. Gated-Lee started moving at an unspecified time (he said he started running towards Gai's direction when he saw him use _Midday Tiger_)


Not always, interception feats have always been dubious because Kishimoto ignores a lot of things when he does that (Naruto blocking Kabuto's punch without him even noticing).

Lee was nowhere to be seen and reflexives Shinobi like Minato and Kakashi failed to notice. Look that if you see the scan, Lee landed to grab Gai and jumped again before everybody reacted.



> I don't what you're referring to with Gai,



Gai, in the lower gates outrunned the two blasts before Kakashi could even warp himself, if we buy interception feats, then we can say that Gai, only in the 6th gate can speedblitz Obito before he could warp. Not only that, Gai even took the blast by himself like nothing happened. Each and every one of the interception feats has something "weird" or out of logic. Tsunade, in better shape, couldn't dodge Kabuto well, but in worse shape she could turn around and protect Naruto from a sword slash very, very near him. I find that as weird as lower gates Gai outrunning Kamui.



> but Tsunade and Ei did not react to light-speed  For a start a lightning bolt doesn't move anywhere near light speed, its slower. Secondly, while coming out of the lightning bolt and striking Muu and Madara immediately does show that they have impressive reflexes it doesn't mean they reacted to something that was lightning-speed. Madara was airborne when he was struck, so he obviously wasn't going to be able to move very fast and intercepting him was a lot easier than usual.



They didn't come out of Mabui's teleportation yet as you can see the aura surrounding them wich implies that they just didn't react, but they saw Madara at the speed they were traveling and managed to attack at such speed.




> Again, we have no idea when Naruto started moving, making this feat incomparable to ones I brought up regarding Tsunade.



He began to move when Kabuto threw the punch, even if he was closer. If he dragged himself slow enough, Kabuto would've noticed him, but he didn't until the very end.



> You have no evidence, and are only assuming this for lack of a better argument. Not many shinobi train _extensively_ in evasion, very few have ever shown to do such a thing, and Tsunade and Sakura are among the few who did.



Come on. Are you going to tell me that medics, who are in the back always, healing the people train in evasion, but SHinobis who trains in taijutsu, ninjutsu, engage dodging taijutsu and ninjutsu, can fall in traps and are in the front lines, doesn't? By mere experience, those shinobis should be more experienced in the arts of evasion than Sakura, who, each time an enemy came, was healing people most of the time.

Everybody needs to dodge attacks.




> I don't really understand what you're trying to get at it as your point here is poorly worded. If they cannot dodge something because it's too fast then they simply rely on Byakugou.


​
They point is Tsunade and Sakura dodging almost everything because they are extremely skilled at evasion. Something that Tsunade never said, just that they need to be able to dodge enemy's attacks. Everybody does this.

Shikamaru needs to do it, Gai needs to, Chouji needs to, even Ei needs to. Medics are not the only ones especial in that.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> People like Gaara obviously don't rely on dodging because he never needed it, but if you compare Sakura and Tsunade with the likes of Kakashi, Gai, Sasuke, Deidara, Naruto , Kisame, etc you can clearly see a difference as they have better feats.



Gai is a taijutsu master, even better than Tsunade in that regard. It only stands to reason that his evasive skills should be better. Naruto and Sasuke are way above Tsunade and Sakura in power, so they aren't relevant. Kisame definitely doesn't have any evasive skill that is more impressive than Tsunade/Sakura's, nor does Deidara. 



> The same Onoki was able to touch six Susano'os without getting hit while Tsunade was badly injured.



Off-panel. Onoki can use doton bunshin, he can create giant rock golems, elevate/lower the ground, creating rock walls etc. He could have been using all of those to protect himself and aid him in touching the clones (which is highly likely). Furthermore, all he needed was a grazing tap to place his heavy weight technique on the clones, it wasn't the same as landing a direct punch to a Susano'o head or managing to spew a sheet of lava over them as other Kage had managed to do. There's no way Onoki used any evasive skills against the clones, he's an old man with no impressive taijutsu. 



> When she finds the attacking patterns, Sasori was using the same pattern all over again. If she faces an opponent that doesn't have a single method of attack it's gonna be harder.



She found a small discrepancy in his fighting style (that he moved his fingers in a certain way to use certain attacks) and used it to create a counter measure. If she could do that in a relatively small amount of time then I really don't see why she couldn't do that with other fighting styles, especially considering Current Sakura has had 6 months to improve her battle ability since then. She could, for example, start to see her opponent moving their arm in a certain way when they're throwing strikes/slashing their sword and begin to predict what way they're going to move. She could then start to evade their attacks a lot easier.



> Chiyo could have pulled her back before the big black thing fell and the radius of the blast could've make Sakura fall. At least is how i am interpreting it.



That wouldn't have made her roll. If Chiyo had just pulled Sakura back then she would've been flung backwards like she was every other time Chiyo saved her ass from an attack like this, but she wasn't. It seems like Sakura dodged herself.



> Sakura was helpess against the Kazekage's sand and was saved by Chiyo. If she couldn't dodge that by herself, i see no reason that she could've done it by herself after Chiyo controlled her. That's the basis.



But for some bizarre reason, you're assuming that every single one of the Kazekage's Iron Sand attacks move at exactly the same speed. In reality the scan you just posted is one of the Sandaime's fastest attacks (look at the shape of the projectiles he's firing, they're obviously more catered to moving quickly than those giant blocks he's fires later on are). Sakura may not have been able to dodge those faster attacks, but she could dodge ones that didn't move quite as quickly (but that had significantly largely AoEs).




> Indeed, he made changes. But Chiyo was still an experienced puppeter enough to figure out any change fast enough. Plus, she was talking about fighting another puppeter, this doesn't mean it's gonna be the same in every fight, especially with different kinds of enemies.



. . this doesn't even make sense. How can Chiyo figure out the changes made to a weapon that she has never even seen before? Whenever his right arm exploded into a huge barrage of needles, _then_ she may have figured out the nature of the trap, but it was far too late then because the attack had already been launched at her. No, Chiyo relied on her evasive skill and evasive skill alone to dodge those traps.



> Yes, this says Tsunade can evade, wich i am agreeing on, what i don't see is that this feat puts her above everybody. Danzo was got an arm cut when he faced Sasuke in a direct clash, either way, those were just examples, there are plenty.



Then please continue to provide more examples so I can prove them all moot.



> Or that Tsunade is still too superior to genin Naruto. A near dead Kimimaro countered and dodged better strikes than that, and against a serious Kyuubi Naruto, sure, he is powerful in CqC, but an experienced Shinobi won't have any troubles against a genin.



It implied that she was superior to Genin Naruto _through_ her evasive abilities. 



> Not always, interception feats have always been dubious because Kishimoto ignores a lot of things when he does that (Naruto blocking Kabuto's punch without him even noticing).



I've already refuted this. We never saw when Naruto started to move before he blocked Kabuto's punch, which is why it isn't a valid feat. In the scenarios I gave you regarding Tsunade we know exactly when she started to move and when she intercepted, meaning we can actually gauge her speed. 



> Lee was nowhere to be seen and reflexives Shinobi like Minato and Kakashi failed to notice. Look that if you see the scan, Lee landed to grab Gai and jumped again before everybody reacted.



For a start there were huge clouds of smoke everywhere, so it was going to be pretty impossible to spot him. Secondly none of them had any clue that Lee was near them and so had no reason to actually try and look out for him/sense him. Thirdly he was moving in his sixth gate, which is a speed incredibly difficult for even Kakashi and Minato to follow. Finally, Minato and Kakashi's surprise at Lee saving Gai has absolutely nothing to do with Lee ' intercepting ' Madara's Gudoudama.



> Gai, in the lower gates outrunned the two blasts before Kakashi could even warp himself, if we buy interception feats, then we can say that Gai, only in the 6th gate can speedblitz Obito before he could warp. Not only that, Gai even took the blast by himself like nothing happened. Each and every one of the interception feats has something "weird" or out of logic. Tsunade, in better shape, couldn't dodge Kabuto well, but in worse shape she could turn around and protect Naruto from a sword slash very, very near him. I find that as weird as lower gates Gai outrunning Kamui.



Yet _again_ you are using an interception feat where we have no idea when Gai started moving. He could have started moving towards Kakashi way before Madara started firing that Gudoudama. This is an illegitimate interception feat yes, but it doesn't prove Tsunade's interception feats to be illegitimate also, because they are actually quantifiable speed feats. Tsunade blocking Orochimaru's sword slashes is believable because in every instance he was either moving more slowly than Kabuto was or because he was attacking her from a greater distance and giving her more time to react by consequence.  




> They didn't come out of Mabui's teleportation yet as you can see the aura surrounding them wich implies that they just didn't react, but they saw Madara at the speed they were traveling and managed to attack at such speed.



The fact that they were not see-able inside the lightning bolts at all until they attacked is highly suggestive that they had _come out_ of the lightning bolts at that point, otherwise we would have been able to see them inside as _they_ _moved_ . The lightning that surrounds them is obviously just the electricity sticking to them afterwards. 



> *He began to move when Kabuto threw the punch*, even if he was closer. If he dragged himself slow enough, Kabuto would've noticed him, but he didn't until the very end.



Prove it. Kabuto put all of his focus on Tsunade - a Sannin who was infinitely stronger than Naruto, he had no reason to listen out for the Genin.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:
			
		

> Come on. Are you going to tell me that medics, who are in the back always, healing the people train in evasion, but SHinobis who trains in taijutsu, ninjutsu, engage dodging taijutsu and ninjutsu, can fall in traps and are in the front lines, doesn't? By mere experience, those shinobis should be more experienced in the arts of evasion than Sakura, who, each time an enemy came, was healing people most of the time.



Except that not all medics are actually that skilled in evasion, because evasion is inherited from taijutsu training. Take Shizune for example, she has pretty bad evasive skills despite being a high-level medic. That is part of the reason that Tsunade and Sakura are hailed as such great medics, because they can actually abide by the medical rules better than any other medic can - they can almost always keep themselves alive and remain the last member of any team to die. Funnily enough, both kunoichi are trained taijutsu experts, and quite naturally have more competence in that area than most other shinobi because they trained _specifically_ in evasion while most other shinobi of their level did not. As you said, most shinobi who fight constantly on the front-lines utilise a wide variety of techniques and in the grand scheme of things evasive taijutsu is not their priority. In Tsunade and Sakura's case evasion _is_ their priority because they have to stay alive in order to heal allies.



> Everybody needs to dodge attacks.



Many people rely on ninjutsu to protect them from attacks, the likes of elemental ninjutsu barriers, chakra barriers, or clones/kawarimi. In fact, most non-taijutsu focused shinobi use these methods of defense rather than using evasive manoeuvres. 



> They point is Tsunade and Sakura dodging almost everything because they are extremely skilled at evasion. Something that Tsunade never said, just that they need to be able to dodge enemy's attacks. Everybody does this.



So you're suggesting that when Tsunade told Sakura medics need to avoid enemy attacks to stay alive, what she actually meant was that Sakura only needed to dodge some attacks, not all attacks, because she didn't need to dodge all attacks to stay alive. Am I right? If so, I hope you rethink this point over and see how stupid and nonsensical it is.



> Shikamaru needs to do it,



Except Shikamaru has few evasive and anticipatory feats anywhere near as impressive as the ones Tsunade and Sakura have shown. Shikamaru is also significantly weaker than either of these kunoichi, and isn't on their level. Your original statement was that Tsunade and Sakura are no more evasive than anyone else on their level . . so I don't know why you're using Shikamaru as an example.



> Chouji needs to



The same can be said with Chouji. He isn't evasive at all whatsoever and is nowhere near Tsunade and Sakura in power-level. He's a terrible example and doesn't strengthen your argument at all.



> even Ei needs to.



Ei is a taijutsu master, but in terms of actual evasive manoeuvres all Ei does is shunshin away from his opponents attacks. Unlike Tsunade/Sakura who actively duck/side-step/jump over/roll/use evasive manoeuvres and skills to dodge attacks, Ei doesn't seem to have that skill, he just moves very fast.



> Medics are not the only ones especial in that.



Of course they aren't, but Tsunade and Sakura aren't ordinary medics. Most shinobi's evasive skills don't compare to theirs.​​


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## Lawrence777 (Jun 4, 2014)

Mei has potent jutsu that maybe able to get over byakugou but those jutsu lack the speed feats to suggest they can reliably hit Tsunade or Sakura imo. Mei's faster  jutsu are all water based, which won't do anything to the konoha duo.

I don't see how they even kill Konan though. They're better than Konan... but what a match up. Konan may solo just off of the fact she can fly and they can't kill her lol.


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## Shinryu (Jun 4, 2014)

Mei's acid mist is a serious problem for Tsunade.Katsuyu could just absorb the acidic mist then use acid slime to kill Konan while Tsuade oneshots Mei with a single hit.


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## Fox91 (Jun 4, 2014)

I see Konan and Mei taking this fight with mid diff.


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## Bonly (Jun 4, 2014)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> His/her argument was:
> 
> _"Its out of character for tsunade or sakura to summon the slug if its not against other summons, in the beggining of a battle"
> _
> ...



Yes but we know that he meant that she won't summon unless she's going against someone else with a summoning as well even if he didn't exactly word it as such. I'm just pointing that in that case that situation would fit with what he was going for.




> Excuse my mistake, I did go back and read chapter 265.
> 
> However, as you have stated the last scan does hold weight. I would like to highlight from this scan that Sasori himself seem to acknowledge that Sakura's analytical skills coupled with her evasion skills is proving troublesome for him. Sakura's evasion skills were further evidenced in their encounter against Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen (100 puppets), during which she was evading unsupported. Again, Sakura is arguably a less capable evasion specialist than Tsunade. Yet she has managed to give Sasori problems.



To be fair Sakura only gave Sasori problems because he was using the slowest form of iron sand that we saw and Chiyo was controlling Sakura for a while which gave Sakura time to look at Sasori's fingers to get used to his attack pattern off panel. Even during Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen Sakura standing by doing nothing while Chiyo's puppets fought, when Sakura did go to attack a puppet she needed to be saved by Chiyo yet again in this fight before she dodged a few attacks which was only the time Sasori sent more then one puppet after her. 

All in all Sakura needed to be saved and was controlled for a majority of the fight and you seem to be overrating her dodging skills quite a bit. Without the help of Chiyo she wouldn't have done so well in the few times she actually did manage to dodge things on her own and she was lucky enough to go up against the slowest form of iron sand as well. Lets not forget those facts.



> I fail to remember any feats from Konan or Mei that compares to the the level of speed and dexterity that Sasori's puppets demonstrated in that fight. But if you have evidence to the contrary please do post them.



Prolly because they haven't had as much screen time as Sakura to actually show feats like that but Konan doesn't need those feats since she can just use Shikigami no Mai and laugh at Sasori's attacks for the most part.


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## LostSelf (Jun 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Gai is a taijutsu master, even better than Tsunade in that regard. It only stands to reason that his evasive skills should be better. Naruto and Sasuke are way above Tsunade and Sakura in power, so they aren't relevant. Kisame definitely doesn't have any evasive skill that is more impressive than Tsunade/Sakura's, nor does Deidara.​




Deidara has much better evasion feats than Tsunade and Sakura combined. Come on now.



> Off-panel. Onoki can use doton bunshin, he can create giant rock golems, elevate/lower the ground, creating rock walls etc. He could have been using all of those to protect himself and aid him in touching the clones (which is highly likely). Furthermore, all he needed was a grazing tap to place his heavy weight technique on the clones, it wasn't the same as landing a direct punch to a Susano'o head or managing to spew a sheet of lava over them as other Kage had managed to do. There's no way Onoki used any evasive skills against the clones, he's an old man with no impressive taijutsu.



Oonoki needs to touch the Susano'os in order to do such a maneuver. You actually cannot assume he moved underground if you say it is off panel.



> She found a small discrepancy in his fighting style (that he moved his fingers in a certain way to use certain attacks) and used it to create a counter measure. If she could do that in a relatively small amount of time then I really don't see why she couldn't do that with other fighting styles, especially considering Current Sakura has had 6 months to improve her battle ability since then. She could, for example, start to see her opponent moving their arm in a certain way when they're throwing strikes/slashing their sword and begin to predict what way they're going to move. She could then start to evade their attacks a lot easier.



How do you know she saw him moving his fingers and then she managed to figure out? Are you assuming again? Nobody is saying she cannot formulate a way to dodge, just that every fighting style is different, and just because she figure out Sasori's doesn't mean she will figure out everyone's.



> That wouldn't have made her roll. If Chiyo had just pulled Sakura back then she would've been flung backwards like she was every other time Chiyo saved her ass from an attack like this, but she wasn't. It seems like Sakura dodged herself.



That's the thing, i don't see Sakura rolling, i see her falling.



> But for some bizarre reason, you're assuming that every single one of the Kazekage's Iron Sand attacks move at exactly the same speed. In reality the scan you just posted is one of the Sandaime's fastest attacks (look at the shape of the projectiles he's firing, they're obviously more catered to moving quickly than those giant blocks he's fires later on are). Sakura may not have been able to dodge those faster attacks, but she could dodge ones that didn't move quite as quickly (but that had significantly largely AoEs).



Man, Sasori himself said that the only reason Sakura was dodging his traps was _because_ of Chiyo's strings and experience. Not because her amazing evasive skills.




> . . this doesn't even make sense. How can Chiyo figure out the changes made to a weapon that she has never even seen before? Whenever his right arm exploded into a huge barrage of needles, _then_ she may have figured out the nature of the trap, but it was far too late then because the attack had already been launched at her. No, Chiyo relied on her evasive skill and evasive skill alone to dodge those traps.



Argue with Sasori, he said Sakura was countering because of Chiyo [1], [2].

Not because of Sakura this or that. Chiyo controlle dher from the very beggining and Chiyo saw through Sasori's changes. I see no reason to believe Sakura dodged by herself when Sasori said otherwise.



> Then please continue to provide more examples so I can prove them all moot.



Konohamaru dodged Hell realm. I guess that means he is quite the evasive shinobi and exceeds at evasion.



> It implied that she was superior to Genin Naruto _through_ her evasive abilities.



Dodging a genin doesn't make you increibly evasive. Especially fodder part 1 Naruto.



> I've already refuted this. We never saw when Naruto started to move before he blocked Kabuto's punch, which is why it isn't a valid feat. In the scenarios I gave you regarding Tsunade we know exactly when she started to move and when she intercepted, meaning we can actually gauge her speed.



Fair enough, then we can assume that gated Lee is faster than Kamui, because he had time to land and leave.



> For a start there were huge clouds of smoke everywhere, so it was going to be pretty impossible to spot him. Secondly none of them had any clue that Lee was near them and so had no reason to actually try and look out for him/sense him. Thirdly he was moving in his sixth gate, which is a speed incredibly difficult for even Kakashi and Minato to follow. Finally, Minato and Kakashi's surprise at Lee saving Gai has absolutely nothing to do with Lee ' intercepting ' Madara's Gudoudama.



No sir, Minato is a sensor himself. Dust clouds wouldn't bother him.



> Yet _again_ you are using an interception feat where we have no idea when Gai started moving. He could have started moving towards Kakashi way before Madara started firing that Gudoudama. This is an illegitimate interception feat yes, but it doesn't prove Tsunade's interception feats to be illegitimate also, because they are actually quantifiable speed feats. Tsunade blocking Orochimaru's sword slashes is believable because in every instance he was either moving more slowly than Kabuto was or because he was attacking her from a greater distance and giving her more time to react by consequence.



What? Gai is _nowhere_ to be seen. And you can _clearly_ see the balls near Kakashi's face. It doesn't matter if he couldn't be seen, Gai wasn't in that panel, he had to _outrun_ the balls that were way closer than himself.

So then, 2-3 gated Gai is faster than Kamui.




> The fact that they were not see-able inside the lightning bolts at all until they attacked is highly suggestive that they had _come out_ of the lightning bolts at that point, otherwise we would have been able to see them inside as _they_ _moved_ . The lightning that surrounds them is obviously just the electricity sticking to them afterwards.



You are assuming yet again. They traveled in that lighting and appeared in that lighting, attacked in that lighting that is clearly covering their entire body.



> Prove it. Kabuto put all of his focus on Tsunade - a Sannin who was infinitely stronger than Naruto, he had no reason to listen out for the Genin.


​
Kabuto is not a moron that won't even know if a Shinobi is near him. The fact that he should've sensed Naruto's presence there is enough to be on guard. Yet, he was very surprised that Naruto blocked his puch.


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## LostSelf (Jun 4, 2014)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Except that not all medics are actually that skilled in evasion, because evasion is inherited from taijutsu training. Take Shizune for example, she has pretty bad evasive skills despite being a high-level medic. That is part of the reason that Tsunade and Sakura are hailed as such great medics, because they can actually abide by the medical rules better than any other medic can - they can almost always keep themselves alive and remain the last member of any team to die. Funnily enough, both kunoichi are trained taijutsu experts, and quite naturally have more competence in that area than most other shinobi because they trained _specifically_ in evasion while most other shinobi of their level did not. As you said, most shinobi who fight constantly on the front-lines utilise a wide variety of techniques and in the grand scheme of things evasive taijutsu is not their priority. In Tsunade and Sakura's case evasion _is_ their priority because they have to stay alive in order to heal allies.​




It doesn't matter if Shinobis can use ninjutsu or genjutsu, they still need to dodge and train on that. Wich is why even in the academy there are sparring contest. If you get caught by an opponent with elemental advantage, then you are fucked because you won't be able to counter him, therefore, you need to dodge.

I don't think Sakura is a master of taijutsu, and like i said, where she could shine (Sasori fight), Chiyo controlled her. Taijutsu doens't mean someone is evasive. It's rounded with speed more than anything. And i am not saying they are not evasive, just that feats shows they are not more special than the others. Tsunade hasn't shown evading much, Sakura's ones were dumped by Sasori saying she only avoided because of Chiyo.




> Many people rely on ninjutsu to protect them from attacks, the likes of elemental ninjutsu barriers, chakra barriers, or clones/kawarimi. In fact, most non-taijutsu focused shinobi use these methods of defense rather than using evasive manoeuvres.



Not actually true in everything. In every fight we have seen, people needed to dodge, or at least, block. Not countering everything with ninjutsu because we've seen that this is impossible.



> So you're suggesting that when Tsunade told Sakura medics need to avoid enemy attacks to stay alive, what she actually meant was that Sakura only needed to dodge some attacks, not all attacks, because she didn't need to dodge all attacks to stay alive. Am I right? If so, I hope you rethink this point over and see how stupid and nonsensical it is.



I don't think what i said is too hard to understand. Tsunade said Sakura or the medics should train in evasion to avoid dying in combat. Not that medics should be beautifully amazing dodging. This is somethind people going for Tsunade took under their wings:

Tsunade said medics should be evasive to live.
Tsunade is a medic.
Tsunade is the best medic.
Tsunade is horribly amazing dodging attacks.

Tsunade showed otherwise. Or she met with attacks too fast for her evasive skills. But a medic needing to be as evasive as a shinobi to live doesn't make them more especial than the others, because they need to, like _everyone_



> Except Shikamaru has few evasive and anticipatory feats anywhere near as impressive as the ones Tsunade and Sakura have shown. Shikamaru is also significantly weaker than either of these kunoichi, and isn't on their level. Your original statement was that Tsunade and Sakura are no more evasive than anyone else on their level . . so I don't know why you're using Shikamaru as an example.



Who is comparing Shikamaru with Tsunade. I am saying he needs to evade as much as them or much more if we count that he can die easier. I never said he dodges more than them.



> The same can be said with Chouji. He isn't evasive at all whatsoever and is nowhere near Tsunade and Sakura in power-level. He's a terrible example and doesn't strengthen your argument at all.



The more i read, the stronger the feeling of "he is not even reading what i am saying before typing" gets.



> Ei is a taijutsu master, but in terms of actual evasive manoeuvres all Ei does is shunshin away from his opponents attacks. Unlike Tsunade/Sakura who actively duck/side-step/jump over/roll/use evasive manoeuvres and skills to dodge attacks, Ei doesn't seem to have that skill, he just moves very fast.



I've never seen Sakura side-stepping without help. And i am sure that if Genin Naruto rushes even against current Shikamaru like he did to Tsunade, Shikamaru would dodge him pretty easy. And even if Ei shunshins away, he dodges. His speed makes it much better than just evading.



> Of course they aren't, but Tsunade and Sakura aren't ordinary medics. Most shinobi's evasive skills don't compare to theirs.


​
Of course they are more evasive than the other. The other medics are complete fodder aside from Kabuto, who is not as good as Tsunade being a medic, yet, is more evasive. Being an amazing medic doesn't make you much more evasive than your amazing Shinobi, to put it that way.

But you are thinking i am saying that Tsunade and Sakura are not evasive at all, even though their feats, at least Sakura's, are not very good.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> Deidara has much better evasion feats than Tsunade and Sakura combined. Come on now.



_Really_? To my memory, he has one feat of jumping away from Sasuke - who attacked him at a range. I don't remember anything else. So if you could jog my memory as to why he is apparently significantly greater at evasion than these two trained evasion specialists, that'd be great.



> Oonoki needs to touch the Susano'os in order to do such a maneuver. You actually cannot assume he moved underground if you say it is off panel.



Likewise, you cannot give Onoki new feats whereby he gains a miraculous level of taijutsu that lets him dodge and touch five different Susano'o clones at once without using any ninjutsu to aid him in his endeavours (which is what he has ICly done in every single battle he's ever been in). I'm simply using common sense in my logically sound assumption, you're just clutching at straws.




> How do you know she saw him moving his fingers and then she managed to figure out? Are you assuming again?



. . because she outright tells us that this is how she is able to read his attacks. I even gave you _the scan_ to this previously, but apparently you didn't even bother to read it.



> Nobody is saying she cannot formulate a way to dodge, just that every fighting style is different, and just because she figure out Sasori's doesn't mean she will figure out everyone's.



That's great, but I haven't said that Sakura can figure out _everyone's_ attack patterns either. Obviously some shinobi will have attack styles too unpredictable and/or fast for someone of her level to predict and dodge effectively (the likes of Gai, Rock Lee, Sasuke, Itachi etc.) but many shinobi have styles that probably are within her realms of capability of predicting at this stage, like Asuma's, or Kiba's, or Darui's.



> That's the thing, i don't see Sakura rolling, i see her falling.



Then you're plainly wrong. Sakura clearly rolls herself over in order to get a grip of the ground and bring herself back onto her feet. Again, if Chiyo had pulled her back to save her then _this_ would have happened, and Sakura wouldn't have been on the ground at all. She clearly dodged.




> Man, Sasori himself said that the only reason Sakura was dodging his traps was _because_ of Chiyo's strings and experience. Not because her amazing evasive skills.



At the start of the match yeah, when Chiyo is bluntly controlling her. But later on in the match when she actually dodges some things by herself? Sasori goes as far to admit that it's incredibly difficult to hit her because she's constantly watching his attacks:

_" She's constantly watching me, at this rate, it'll take time . . I'll have to use a bit of chakra and finish it with "that" "_



> Argue with Sasori, he said Sakura was countering because of Chiyo [1], [2].
> 
> Not because of Sakura this or that. Chiyo controlle dher from the very beggining and Chiyo saw through Sasori's changes. I see no reason to believe Sakura dodged by herself when Sasori said otherwise.



You are making absolutely no sense at all at this point. How does this in any way shape or form prove that Chiyo was dodging his attacks on the grounds that she could figure out the changes that he made to his traps (that she had never seen before)? Yes Sakura was controlled by Chiyo at the very beginning of the match and her ability to dodge those senbon had absolutely nothing to do with her own evasive skills. Congratulations, I already knew that and that was never being argued in the first place. I have no idea why you brought that up at all.




> Konohamaru dodged Hell realm. I guess that means he is quite the evasive shinobi and exceeds at evasion.



This is a terrible example, Hell realm isn't very fast nor does he have any impressive taijutsu feats, Konohamaru dodging him makes him more evasive than your average fodder, that's it.



> Dodging a genin doesn't make you increibly evasive. Especially fodder part 1 Naruto.



Great, why is this relevant to anything I said?

Kishimoto allowing her to dodge a Genin's best attempts at genjutsu while she was intoxicated shows that he was trying to portray her as evasive. As an actual feat it isn't impressive, but this was one of Tsunade's first ever combat feats and Kishimoto chose it to be of _evasion_. If that doesn't bare any significance in her portrayal to you, then I'll just give up with this point. I can't cure stubbornness. 




> Fair enough, then we can assume that gated Lee is faster than Kamui, because he had time to land and leave.



No, we cannot ever assume that. Please go back and read the argument I just provided in the last post that proved Lee's interception a moot feat.



> No sir, Minato is a sensor himself. Dust clouds wouldn't bother him.



Minato needs to actively _try_ to sense, it isn't just passively in effect. 



> What? Gai is _nowhere_ to be seen. And you can _clearly_ see the balls near Kakashi's face.* It doesn't matter if he couldn't be seen*, Gai wasn't in that panel, he had to _outrun_ the balls that were way closer than himself.



Yes, it does. Gai could have started running towards Kakashi's location way before Madara shot his Gudoudama, in that case he wasn't outrunning anything because he started moving before the Gudoudama did, hence he had a head start and it is not a true measure of his speed. Also, you can see Gai's shadow behind Kakashi in that scan.



> You are assuming yet again. They traveled in that lighting and appeared in that lighting, attacked in that lighting that is clearly covering their entire body.



I'm not assuming anything - at least not anything that isn't fully backed with evidence. You haven't bothered to try and come up with an argument to refute my point, you're just regurgitating the same tripe I just disproved. 



> Kabuto is not a moron that won't even know if a Shinobi is near him. The fact that he should've sensed Naruto's presence there is enough to be on guard. Yet, he was very surprised that Naruto blocked his puch.



Because Naruto was practically unconscious, and Kabuto had no reason to suspect that he was able to move at all, never mind approach him.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 4, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> It doesn't matter if Shinobis can use ninjutsu or genjutsu, they still need to dodge and train on that. Wich is why even in the academy there are sparring contest. If you get caught by an opponent with elemental advantage, then you are fucked because you won't be able to counter him, therefore, you need to dodge.



Great. But can academy students or most shinobi dodge to same extent that Tsunade/Sakura can? Nope.



> I don't think Sakura is a master of taijutsu, and like i said, where she could shine (Sasori fight), Chiyo controlled her. Taijutsu doens't mean someone is evasive. It's rounded with speed more than anything.



Well I've proved to you multiple instances where Sakura dodged or moved enough to avoid critical hits, without the help of Chiyo. So there are definitely instances where she shined in that fight without Chiyo. And no, evasion isn't always tied with taijutsu, but the type that Tsunade/Sakura possess obviously is, because it's to do with reading attack patterns and predicting, which is something one can only do after gaining experience in close combat situations (which is how Tsunade trains Sakura). It may also be to do with reaction speed, but if you can predict the attack then your reactions don't have to be s fast. 



> And i am not saying they are not evasive, just that feats shows they are not more special than the others. Tsunade hasn't shown evading much, Sakura's ones were dumped by Sasori saying she only avoided because of Chiyo.



I know exactly what you're saying, and you're still wrong. I repeat, your original statement was that Sakura and Tsunade are not any more evasive than anyone on their level, I am completely against that assertion because they evidently are, but you have yet to actually prove this.



> Not actually true in everything. In every fight we have seen, people needed to dodge, or at least, block. Not countering everything with ninjutsu because we've seen that this is impossible.



There are instances where you may need to dodge/block, but non-taijutsu experts generally rely on ninjutsu to block/protect them from the majority of attacks. 



> I don't think what i said is too hard to understand. Tsunade said Sakura or the medics should train in evasion to avoid dying in combat. Not that medics should be beautifully amazing dodging. This is somethind people going for Tsunade took under their wings:
> 
> Tsunade said medics should be evasive to live.
> Tsunade is a medic.
> ...



Stop shoving words down my throat. The only thing I'm arguing against is the assertion that Tsunade/Sakura are no more evasive than anyone else on their level, and it just so happens the majority of the people on her level aren't that evasive to begin with. The types of people within their tier bracket are the likes of Muu, Nidaime Mizukage, Onoki, Gaara, Sandaime Raikage, Deidara, Ei, Gai, Mei, Kisame and Kakuzu, and of those ninja the only one who I would say is more skilled in _straight evasion_ is _Gai_. If you think that makes them _' horribly amazing '_ at dodging attacks, then cool, more power to you.




> Who is comparing Shikamaru with Tsunade. I am saying he needs to evade as much as them or much more if we count that he can die easier. I never said he dodges more than them.



Shikamaru isn't a close quarters type, he sits at a range and uses Kagemane no Jutsu, a ninjutsu, so his need to avoid attacks has always been to a lesser extent than Tsunade/Sakura who actively engage their opponents up close.



> The more i read, the stronger the feeling of "he is not even reading what i am saying before typing" gets.



Nice argument.



> I've never seen Sakura side-stepping without help.



Me neither, I was referring to Tsunade with that specific manoeuvre. I thought you'd have worked that out since I gave you the scan.



> And i am sure that if Genin Naruto rushes even against current Shikamaru like he did to Tsunade, Shikamaru would dodge him pretty easy.



Me too, but since it wouldn't be one of his first ever combat feats, nor would he be performing said combat feat while drunk, I wouldn't consider it to be any kind of significant portrayal of his evasive skill.



> And even if Ei shunshins away, he dodges. His speed makes it much better than just evading.



Ei shunshins away because he doesn't have evasive skill, making Tsunade and Sakura better in that regard. Sure, he can generally dodge attacks better than those two because he can just race out of close quarters, but those two can stay in close quarters by using skilful movements, not relying on _ninjutsu_. That's all I meant.



> Of course they are more evasive than the other. The other medics are complete fodder aside from Kabuto, who is not as good as Tsunade being a medic, yet, is more evasive.



Kabuto pre-Orochimaru absorption is not any more evasive than Tsunade is. Orochimaru's cells granted him higher speed (including reaction speed) boosting his evasive ability.



> Being an amazing medic doesn't make you much more evasive than your amazing Shinobi, to put it that way.



Sure it doesn't, but Tsunade and Sakura have better feats and hype and general portrayal when it comes to evasive manoeuvres than most other amazing shinobi _of their level_.



> But you are thinking i am saying that Tsunade and Sakura are not evasive at all, even though their feats, at least Sakura's, are not very good.



No I'm not.​​


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Jun 5, 2014)

> To be fair Sakura only gave Sasori problems because he was using the slowest form of iron sand that we saw and Chiyo was controlling Sakura for a while which gave Sakura time to look at Sasori's fingers to get used to his attack pattern off panel. Even during Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen Sakura standing by doing nothing while Chiyo's puppets fought, when Sakura did go to attack a puppet she needed to be saved by Chiyo yet again in this fight before she dodged a few attacks which was only the time Sasori sent more then one puppet after her.
> 
> All in all Sakura needed to be saved and was controlled for a majority of the fight and you seem to be overrating her dodging skills quite a bit. Without the help of Chiyo she wouldn't have done so well in the few times she actually did manage to dodge things on her own and she was lucky enough to go up against the slowest form of iron sand as well. Lets not forget those facts.




I am not overrating her dodging skills, her analytical skills in conjunction with her evasion skills allowed her to be an asset against Sasori. She may have received assistance but she carried herself in that fight. 

I haven't set aside the fact that Sakura needed assistance, I have considered that. It was the joint effort from Chiyo and Sakura that defeated Sasori, and as such there were times where Sakura needed saving, but this similarly applies to Chiyo. 

Yes, slowest form of iron sand, but by no means slow. Sasori was launching those attacks with intent to kill. Therefore, I don't think this discredits her at all. I have never claimed that Sakura is untouchable, or Tsunade. My argument was that with the feats she has shown against Sasori she would not be so easily incapacitated by Konan, if at all.

Moreover, she adequately evaded Satetsu Kaihō. She avoided impalement and only received cuts, eventhough she had little time and space to react and maneuver from that attack.  

You seem to be forgetting the caliber of shinobi that Sasori was. The fact that she was able to be even an inconvenience to him and forced him to reveal his more powerful jutsu is an achievement in itself, even with assistance. Furthermore, Chiyo, a well respected and experienced shinobi was amazed by her skill in analysing Sasori's attacks and her level of awareness .



> Prolly because they haven't had as much screen time as Sakura to actually show feats like that but Konan doesn't need those feats since she can just use Shikigami no Mai and laugh at Sasori's attacks for the most part.



Please re-read my post, I was referring to offensive speed and not ability to evade. I was questioning if they have had any showing of offensive speed that could rival Sasori. I understand that they have received less panel time, but we can only go by the feats they have shown.


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## Bonly (Jun 5, 2014)

Sannin Kunoichi Hokage said:


> She may have received assistance but she carried herself in that fight.



She was carried for a majority of the fight, she barely carried herself.



> and as such there were times where Sakura needed saving, but this similarly applies to Chiyo.



Not to the same degree though I don't remember how many times Chiyo was about to be hit yet needed to be saved like Sakura did. Maybe it happened once 



> Yes, slowest form of iron sand, but by no means slow. Sasori was launching those attacks with intent to kill. Therefore, I don't think this discredits her at all.



It was by no means fast either.



> I have never claimed that Sakura is untouchable, or Tsunade. My argument was that with the feats she has shown against Sasori she would not be so easily incapacitated by Konan, if at all.



Not saying otherwise, you keep putting alot of stock 



> Moreover, she adequately evaded Satetsu Kaihō. She avoided impalement and only received cuts, eventhough she had little time and space to react and maneuver from that attack.



Still got in multiple places and it was clear that he wasn't trying to use the jutsu to impale her multiple times when you see how he used the jutsu along with his line of thinking of "a scratch is all it takes". 



> You seem to be forgetting the caliber of shinobi that Sasori was. The fact that she was able to be even an inconvenience to him and forced him to reveal his more powerful jutsu *is an achievement in itself,* even with assistance. Furthermore, Chiyo, a well respected and experienced shinobi was amazed by her skill in analysing Sasori's attacks and her level of awareness .



Anddd no it's not. Put anyone else who was decent in her position and they would give Sasori a pain. Why? Because she had Chiyo controlling her and constantly saving her a majority of the time, let someone decent be used like her and they will give Sasori a pain as well. 



> Please re-read my post, *I was referring to offensive speed* and not ability to evade. I was questioning if they have had any showing of offensive speed that could rival Sasori. I understand that they have received less panel time, but we can only go by the feats they have shown.



I was too. When I said "Shikigami no Mai and laugh at Sasori's attacks for the most part." I was referring to her speed in Shikigami no Mai compared to Sasori's 100 puppets which have nothing notable in the speed department.


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## Sannin Kunoichi Hokage (Jun 7, 2014)

> She was carried for a majority of the fight, she barely carried herself.





> Not to the same degree though I don't remember how many times Chiyo was about to be hit yet needed to be saved like Sakura did. Maybe it happened once



She was only assisted with chakra strings for Sasori's first puppet, I think. How does that equate to her being carried for the majority of the fight? They needed each other for that battle, they were more of a mutual asset than a burden or detriment.



> It was by no means fast either.


Not fast but above average in speed. Again, intent to kill means that Sasori was trying to eliminate Sakura, which obviously meant that he would not use a jutsu that could be evaded easily. 



> Not saying otherwise, you keep putting alot of stock


Can you please be clear with what you mean?



> Still got in multiple places and it was clear that he wasn't trying to use the jutsu to impale her multiple times when you see how he used the jutsu along with his line of thinking of "a scratch is all it takes".



Yes, he noted that a scratch was all it took. 
But the fact that he had to use the jutsu to the extent that he did implies that he rationally believed he needed to cover virtually all corners just to land a scratch on her. Therefore acknowledging that he needed to resort to drastic measures  in order to counter her perceptiveness, awareness and evasion ability. 



> Anddd no it's not. Put anyone else who was decent in her position and they would give Sasori a pain. Why? Because she had Chiyo controlling her and constantly saving her a majority of the time, let someone decent be used like her and they will give Sasori a pain as well.



As this is your argument, then please provided evidence to support it. Provide me with examples as to which shinobi, chunnin or lesser, would have fared as well as Sakura, with Chiyo's assistance. This obviously excludes, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito and other shinobi of their caliber, otherwise I can't think of any other chunnin level shinobi that could match her feats.



> I was too. When I said "Shikigami no Mai and laugh at Sasori's attacks for the most part." I was referring to her speed in Shikigami no Mai compared to Sasori's 100 puppets which have nothing notable in the speed department.



It seems obvious to me that if you're going to claim that Shikigami no Mai has more impressive speed feats than Sasori's puppets, then you should support it with scans for evidence.  I can't recall Konan having any impressive offensive speed feats that Sakura or Tsunade would be unable to react to.


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## Tenten Is Kage Level (Jun 8, 2014)

Fox91 said:


> I see Konan and Mei taking this fight with mid diff.




Like this post, this doesn't add anything to the debate.


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